# Bad\boring sex vs. no sex?



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

In your opinion is bad\boring sex just as bad as no sex? 

By bad I mean one partner isn't interested...no position change...no initiating...just going through the motions to get it done.

Is that just as bad as not having sex at all?


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

It is soul-killing having sex with someone who doesn't see you, and who isn't really present. Yeah, I'd say it's almost as bad as no sex.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

If the uninterested person is going through some temporary high stresses causing their lack of enthusiasm then no the fact they are still making themselves available should appreciated. If it is an ongoing/permenant lack of interest and enthusiasm I would think it would be as bad as no sex at all.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I think it's worse.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

It is. 

I believe the universal answer you'll get is starfish obligation sex is the worst.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

I think it’s worse also. I’d rather use my hand. I don’t feel rejection from my hand.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I guess if you always have to have your other half be madly keen and enthusiastic or you arent interested, then dont bother. There will be times when one or both just feel exhausted, ill, tired, sad or whatever. If its a constant month in month out year in year out thing, then something is clearly very wrong in the relationship.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

RebuildingMe said:


> I think it’s worse also. I’d rather use my hand. I don’t feel rejection from my hand.


And a guaranteed orgasm!! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

There are a lot of threads in TAM on the subject.

As @Diana7 alludes to there are encounters in any ltr time to time where no one is swinging from the chandeliers but if it happens regularly that's a sign of deeper issues.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I think it's worse than no sex if it's the _only_ sex you get. We all have off days, which is not the issue here. If things get to this point routinely, it's time to move on, IMO.


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## 347055 (Nov 7, 2020)

I can't help but quote my Dad when I was 13 years old. He spent 2 years in South Pacific combat during WW2. "Even 'bad' sex is pretty wonderful". He also said there were no ugly women, just some less beautiful than others. Sorry for the detour.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Rus47 said:


> I can't help but quote my Dad when I was 13 years old. He spent 2 years in South Pacific combat during WW2. "Even 'bad' sex is pretty wonderful". He also said there were no ugly women, just some less beautiful than others. Sorry for the detour.



Ha ha, when I was stationed at Ft Stewart GA the male to female ratio was about 16 to 1. It was about 45 minutes from Savanah and out in the middle of nowhere, so men weren't especially picky. 

One guy I knew was dating a woman who was 8 months pregnant by someone else. I will never forget what he told me:

"Life, there are two kinds of standards.....ft Stewart standards and normal standards. After a year here even Frankenstein starts to look pretty good".


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I think it can be worse.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I've been holding out on this thread because no matter how bad things are emotionally, the sex is actually pretty good . . . when and if it happens. In other words I have a fair amount of experience with no sex. Much less experience with boring sex. 
What Diane has said here is a very good point. 


Diana7 said:


> I guess if you always have to have your other half be madly keen and enthusiastic or you aren't interested, then don't bother. There will be times when one or both just feel exhausted, ill, tired, sad or whatever. If its a constant month in month out year in year out thing, then something is clearly very wrong in the relationship.


Mrs. Nail has no problem at all letting me know when she is tired, more interested in her book, ill, more interested in her book, sad, more interested in her book, or whatever, usually more interested in a book. And I'm pretty sure she has made the right choice over boring sex. 
I had an interesting encounter with her kindle account over the holidays, but that's a story for another topic.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Bad as in one partner literally isn’t interested and is submitting to use as a masturbation device = semi-rapey and cringe inducing. Much worse than nothing at all.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> In your opinion is bad\boring sex just as bad as no sex?


Worse. Even if I orgasm from the bad sex it's not satisfying and I am left still physically frustrated only with added mental and emotional unhappiness to sweeten the suck.



happyhusband0005 said:


> If the uninterested person is going through some temporary high stresses causing their lack of enthusiasm then no the fact they are still making themselves available should appreciated.


If my husband is really tired from working or just isn't feeling well and is willing, but not going to be into it, I decline. I appreciate the offer, and will let him know that, but I'd rather wait until he's able to be into it.

Now, if he's tired from work or not feeling in top shape, but is still into it, then I'll just do all the work.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

Sometimes I think she does it just so she can say "we have sex all the time" (1-2x a week average ) but with the least amount of effort she can muster, hoping ill stop initiating. The absolute worst part.... having the solid 10 at gym hit on you constantly, knowing there's nothing you can do.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

Sbrown said:


> Sometimes I think she does it just so she can say "we have sex all the time" (1-2x a week average ) but with the least amount of effort she can muster, hoping ill stop initiating. The absolute worst part.... having the solid 10 at gym hit on you constantly, knowing there's nothing you can do.


Ouch ouch and ouch


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Sbrown said:


> Sometimes I think she does it just so she can say "we have sex all the time" (1-2x a week average ) but with the least amount of effort she can muster, hoping ill stop initiating. The absolute worst part.... having the solid 10 at gym hit on you constantly, knowing there's nothing you can do.


Of course there is something you can do: file for divorce and then accept the 10's advances.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> In your opinion is bad\boring sex just as bad as no sex?
> 
> By bad I mean one partner isn't interested...no position change...no initiating...just going through the motions to get it done.
> 
> Is that just as bad as not having sex at all?


Man, when I was dating, there was a LOT of lazy sex by men who liked to just lay back and wait.....But now, if you're married, I'd expect a certain amount of lazy but otherwise loving relaxing sex on both sides. Every run can't be a marathon, you know. 

If, on the other hand, you're talking about a partner who would just rather not, isn't into you that way anymore, then I agree with others here. Time for a change, maybe. Maybe. Depends on the rest of the marriage and if you've become close in other ways.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> By bad I mean one partner isn't interested...no position change...no initiating...just going through the motions to get it done.


That is not bad sex. 

That is a broken and dysfunctional relationship and a loss of interpersonal intimacy. 

Having sex with someone who isn’t interested, engaged or invested in the sexual experience is transactional sex ( like getting a hooker ) at best and approaching the realm of sexual abuse at worst. 

Bad sex is having someone fart when you are going down on them or throwing your back out or accidentally getting poked in the eye. 

Having sex with someone who doesn’t actually want to is a whole other realm of dysfunction.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

As far what is worse, I will say this - - not having sex has never made me feel dirty and gross and kind of sick in the pit of my stomach. 

I may have have felt horny and dissatisfied and maybe even kind of lonely during some dry spells, but I have never felt sick or gross.

Being in a dry spell may not be fun and games at times, but trying to be with someone that simply does not want to be with you is a whole other level of pain.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

There is a difference between not having sex, and being denied sex from the person you love (especially when you are sex starved). 

There is still physical Intimacy even if the sex is bad. I’m a sensual person and I need physical contact. I love feeling my partner on top of me, I love the feeling of our naked bodies touching. When I have sex, I draw my attention to these details, the way it all feels. Physical touch is super important to me.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

And there is a difference between being available to your partner, but being too tired/stressed/ill to be any good versus not enjoying sex ever, but doing it to avoid getting divorced, versus someone having no idea what they’re doing and being terrible. 

Bad sex needs to be defined.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Bad sex is having someone fart when you are going down on them or throwing your back out or accidentally getting poked in the eye.


This made LOL!! 

It's really bad when, on top of having little sex, your partner goes and farts in the middle of it!!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

pastasauce79 said:


> This made LOL!!
> 
> It's really bad when, on top of having little sex, your partner goes and farts in the middle of it!!


Correct. If sex isn't causing you to clench up so tight that it's impossible to drive a straight pin up your backside with a 10 lb. sledge, you're not doing it right.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Girl_power said:


> There is a difference between not having sex, and being denied sex from the person you love (especially when you are sex starved).
> 
> There is still physical Intimacy even if the sex is bad. I’m a sensual person and I need physical contact. I love feeling my partner on top of me, I love the feeling of our naked bodies touching. When I have sex, I draw my attention to these details, the way it all feels. Physical touch is super important to me.


THIS is exactly ME too...!!!!!


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> In your opinion is bad\boring sex just as bad as no sex?
> 
> By bad I mean one partner isn't interested...no position change...no initiating...just going through the motions to get it done.
> 
> Is that just as bad as not having sex at all?


But what if you're the only one benefitting from the position change and it's doing nothing for the other partner, as is so often the case?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> But what if you're the only one benefitting from the position change and it's doing nothing for the other partner, as is so often the case?


Then you take turns so both can benefit from different positions. It should not be just about _one_ partner, even the bad/boring one should not deny the other one some enjoyment.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> But what if you're the only one benefitting from the position change and it's doing nothing for the other partner, as is so often the case?


Well with us the wife just kind of lays there and makes me do everything. Its gets old pretty quick as it feels like she isn't even trying. She cums with her toy and then just waits for me to finish.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> But what if you're the only one benefitting from the position change and it's doing nothing for the other partner, as is so often the case?


I don’t believe @FloridaGuy1 literally meant that no position changes constitute the sex being bad. 

I think he used that as an example of being detached and not having any engagement or investment or initiative in the experience.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Married but Happy said:


> Then you take turns so both can benefit from different positions. It should not be just about _one_ partner, even the bad/boring one should not deny the other one some enjoyment.





FloridaGuy1 said:


> Well with us the wife just kind of lays there and makes me do everything. Its gets old pretty quick as it feels like she isn't even trying. She cums with her toy and then just waits for me to finish.


If she's getting herself off with a toy, what is the everything you are having to do?


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> I don’t believe @FloridaGuy1 literally meant that no position changes constitute the sex being bad.
> 
> I think he used that as an example of being detached and not having any engagement or investment or initiative in the experience.


Exactly


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> If she's getting herself off with a toy, what is the everything you are having to do?


What oldshirt said


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> If she's getting herself off with a toy, what is the everything you are having to do?


@FloridaGuy1 can answer your question, but I will just add that you are missing the point.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

It's worse.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> @FloridaGuy1 can answer your question, but I will just add that you are missing the point.


I do understand what she is saying though. She is getting herself off with her toy so he doesn’t have to do any work on his wife. All he has to do is focus on his pleasure and orgasm. They are both focused on pleasuring themselves independently, but together if that makes sense.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I have frequently seen the term starfish on here referring to women who just enjoy the missionary position. 

I would just like to point out that there are also starfish positions for men and I encountered them quite frequently while dating, this first one more than any other. If you are laying there waiting for me to give you a BJ, that is you being a starfish. If you are laying there waiting for me to mount you, that is you being a starfish. If you are laying there getting a handy, that is you being a starfish.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Why do a position that you don’t like if you 1. You Have to get yourself off? And 2. Your husband can orgasm in any position?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

A lot of women like the missionary position because they can relax and get off. but they also like it because a lot of women like to hold their man and not have him way off at arm's length. They want to kiss that face and feel close


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Girl_power said:


> I do understand what she is saying though. She is getting herself off with her toy so he doesn’t have to do any work on his wife. All he has to do is focus on his pleasure and orgasm. They are both focused on pleasuring themselves independently, but together if that makes sense.


Clearly that is what’s going on but clearly OP is not happy with that arrangement.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> A lot of women like the missionary position because they can relax and get off. but they also like it because a lot of women like to hold their man and not have him way off at arm's length. They want to kiss that face and feel close


By “relax” do you mean lie there like a starfish and do nothing? I’d rather use my hand...


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I think the starfish is literally a starfish. Lay there (spread out) with no movement or interaction like a starfish.

I only ever noticed my wife doing this once but I am sure she did it many more times without me noticing. Eyes closed, no vocalization or movement, just me going away at it until I noticed. Once I noticed I actually felt disgusted.

For missionary to turn into starfish the woman would not be: touching you with her hands, looking at you, using her hips at all, no kissing, no arm movement, no vocalizing, etc...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I have frequently seen the term starfish on here referring to women who just enjoy the missionary position.
> 
> I would just like to point out that there are also starfish positions for men and I encountered them quite frequently while dating, this first one more than any other. If you are laying there waiting for me to give you a BJ, that is you being a starfish. If you are laying there waiting for me to mount you, that is you being a starfish. If you are laying there getting a handy, that is you being a starfish.


Starfish does NOT mean just enjoying missionary.

In fact when discussing starfish, you have to take the word “enjoy” completely out of the equation.

Where the term starfish comes from is where someone is so detached and uninvested in the experience that they are just laying there passively with their arms and legs laying on the bed and not even touching their partner. 

Being in such a detached state that arms and legs are laying flat on the bed like a starfish would lay on the sand is where the term comes from.

The defining factor is the detachment and disinterest, not the position itself. One can prefer missionary position to the others but still be an engaged and enthusiastic lover. That is not starfish.

That is also not to be confused with a couple taking turns pleasuring each other while both are engaged and enthusiastic about the experience. That is also not starfish. 

Starfish refers to the detachment, disinterest and lack of enthusiasm.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> A lot of women like the missionary position because they can relax and get off. but they also like it because a lot of women like to hold their man and not have him way off at arm's length. They want to kiss that face and feel close


Right, but that is still being engaged and enjoying and being an active participant in the experience. 

That is not what Florida is talking about here. 

You’re being too technical and getting to caught up on positions. It’s not about positions, it is about lack of interest and lack of being engaged.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Sounds like a guy getting a bj to me.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> I think the starfish is literally a starfish. Lay there (spread out) with no movement or interaction like a starfish.
> 
> I only ever noticed my wife doing this once but I am sure she did it many more times without me noticing. Eyes closed, no vocalization or movement, just me going away at it until I noticed. Once I noticed I actually felt disgusted.
> 
> For missionary to turn into starfish the woman would not be: touching you with her hands, looking at you, using her hips at all, no kissing, no arm movement, no vocalizing, etc...


Yes. This. 

Starfish means the lack of engagement, interest and participation. 

It is a horrible, dirty, disgusting and soul crushing experience.

I have been with women that were overweight. I have been with women that were inexperienced and didn’t know what they were doing. I wasn’t just making up my earlier comment about a woman farting while going down on her, that really happened once. And I have been with women that were rough and clumsy and into things I wasn’t into. I have even had a couple women poop the bed during anal 😮

But the only times I have ever just came to a cold, hard stop, got up, got dressed and walked out feeling dirty and disgusted has been when my wife has starfished me.

I am ok with just about anything as long as the other person is present, interested, engaged and enthusiastic. 

Without those things, it is just a step or two away from sexual assault as far as I’m concerned and I ain’t no rapist or molester.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Sounds like a guy getting a bj to me.


You are either intentionally trying to mock and disrupt the discussion or just not getting it. 

Taking turns pleasing each other where both parties are engaged and enthusiastic and mutually reciprocating is not starfish and it is not the topic the OP is discussing...... and I think you know that.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Without those things, it is just a step or two away from sexual assault as far as I’m concerned and I ain’t no rapist or molester.


This. If you’re ok with participating once you recognize what is going on there is something broken in your mind.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Sounds like a guy getting a bj to me.


Are you the OP’s wife? Sounds like you have a lot in common with her. I really don’t think you are going to add ANYTHING useful to the OP’s situation.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Sounds like a guy getting a bj to me.


The only times my STBX just laid there quiet and unresponsive while I was giving him a blow job was in the weeks right before he stopped letting me give him oral at all (which broke my heart)...it was demoralizing and made me feel so worthless.

When he was into getting a blow job from me (early in our relationship), I loved how he would hold my head or my hair and moan, and he would run his hands and fingers over my arms, or over my legs if I was switched around in a different position...like HE couldn't keep his hands off me either, because he loved sex with me so much. THAT was what made it so exciting and fun for me!!

I don't think most guys who are enjoying oral just lay there...just like if a woman is really enjoying sex, she isn't only going to lay there either.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

OK just to be clear and to avoid confusion...I wasn't really focusing on just positions when I posted as much as the wife's lack of interest and when she does "agree" to have sex (I ALWAYS have to initiate) her more or less lack of effort involved.

Its just like she goes along with whatever I want and has no real interest in it. Like I will ask if she wants to use her toy and she'll just reply "I guess" and then I'll ask if she wants to try something new (new position) and she'll just reply "No I'm good" and I'll suggest doing it in a different room and she'll reply "No, here is fine". And I suggest maybe we exchange oral and she'll say "Not tonight" etc, etc etc

My wife just does not like sex and has no real interest in it. Hence my original post as I have gotten to the point where not having sex is almost better than having sex that really isn't any fun.

I think you all get the idea and sorry for any confusion from my original post. But I do appreciate everyone's input!


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

That sucks man. I feel a bit of that myself I don’t really completely understand my wife even after over 20 years.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> You are either intentionally trying to mock and disrupt the discussion or just not getting it.


Or else I just disagree with you and know men can be starfish too.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Girl_power said:


> There is a difference between not having sex, and being denied sex from the person you love (especially when you are sex starved).
> 
> There is still physical Intimacy even if the sex is bad. I’m a sensual person and I need physical contact. I love feeling my partner on top of me, I love the feeling of our naked bodies touching. When I have sex, I draw my attention to these details, the way it all feels. Physical touch is super important to me.


This is what happened to me - having sex with my STBX knowing he didn't really want ME hurt and made me feel so unsatisfied, but I just needed the physical touch so much that I was willing to have whatever sex I could have from him, because I loved him!

Now I realize how dysfunctional and empty the sex was, but at the time, I just wanted to please him and connect with him sexually.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> That sucks man. I feel a bit of that myself I don’t really completely understand my wife even after over 20 years.


Where is your thread with your experiences that you promised...??


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Where is your thread with your experiences that you promised...??


Haha I have been really busy with work.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Or else I just disagree with you and know men can be starfish too.


Men that don't want to have sex with their wives golf and fish and go hunting with their buddies or they get with other women. 

I suppose technically they _could_ starfish and there are definately a lot of lazy lovers and inept lovers,,, but actual male starfishing is probably quite rare. Men rarely do what they don't actually want to. 

But all that aside, what you were describing and talking about wasn't starfishing.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Starfishing is a position, and it's not limited to people who don't want to have sex, and it's not limited to women. It's an inactive position.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> OK just to be clear and to avoid confusion...I wasn't really focusing on just positions when I posted as much as the wife's lack of interest and when she does "agree" to have sex (I ALWAYS have to initiate) her more or less lack of effort involved.
> 
> Its just like she goes along with whatever I want and has no real interest in it. Like I will ask if she wants to use her toy and she'll just reply "I guess" and then I'll ask if she wants to try something new (new position) and she'll just reply "No I'm good" and I'll suggest doing it in a different room and she'll reply "No, here is fine". And I suggest maybe we exchange oral and she'll say "Not tonight" etc, etc etc
> 
> ...


What are you going to do...? It seems like she is actually rejecting you indirectly, so you can't call her out on it, but she is still not willing to give you what you want. 

I believe that when women want to fake enjoyment in sex for their partners, they can do a very convincing job. When a woman is willing to give her body up for sex, but still wants her partner to know she's not into it, it's intentional. It seems like she WANTS you to know she's not into it and that she's only doing it because YOU want to...and that means she's still not interested in meeting your needs. She's giving you sex to meet HER needs, for you not to leave or find another partner.

Have you had any real, direct conversation with her about this?


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> What are you going to do...? It seems like she is actually rejecting you indirectly, so you can't call her out on it, but she is still not willing to give you what you want.
> 
> I believe that when women want to fake enjoyment in sex for their partners, they can do a very convincing job. When a woman is willing to give her body up for sex, but still wants her partner to know she's not into it, it's intentional. It seems like she WANTS you to know she's not into it and that she's only doing it because YOU want to...and that means she's still not interested in meeting your needs. She's giving you sex to meet HER needs, for you not to leave or find another partner.
> 
> Have you had any real, direct conversation with her about this?


We've had numerous conversations about it. She says she likes sex and says we are great together. Buts our sex life is lame. I've told her that a few times and then she'll act really interested for the next time...but then a week or two or three goes by with no sex (she'll never initiate) and then the next time we are back to our boring "quick and get it over with session"

I pretty much have given up as its been this way for a while and its too much effort anymore. Its easier just to go without.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Yeah the real issue there is you can’t necessarily decide desire since it’s a feeling not a logical process. So logically the LD partner might feel like they want to have desire for their HD partner but a feeling can’t be manufactured.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> Yeah the real issue there is you can’t necessarily decide desire since it’s a feeling not a logical process. So logically the LD partner might feel like they want to have desire for their HD partner *but a feeling can’t be manufactured.*


I disagree with this...it's called responsive desire.

And does anyone actually turn down a backrub...?? It's physical touching, it feels good, and if someone wanted to give a LD person a backrub for 30 minutes, they would love it, most likely - WHY is SEX so different?? Maybe your mind isn't into it, but allow your body to feel the pleasure and GET your mind into it!!! 

I just don't get it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Starfishing is a position, and it's not limited to people who don't want to have sex, and it's not limited to women. It's an inactive position.


@FloridaGuy1 has repeatedly explained the context of the thread, but yet you continue to distract and deflect from the topic.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> And does anyone actually turn down a backrub...?? It's physical touching, it feels good, and if someone wanted to give a LD person a backrub for 30 minutes, they would love it, most likely -
> 
> I just don't get it.


YES people *DO *turn down backrubs. 

You don't get it because you are a normal, healthy person with an intact libido and want to connect with someone. 

People that do not have the criteria above or do not have any desire or attraction for their partner do not want them rubbing on them or touching them *AT ALL. *


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> @FloridaGuy1 has repeatedly explained the context of the thread, but yet you continue to distract and deflect from the topic.


With all due respect, I'm not who first brought up starfish, and I'm certainly not the one who got the furthest afield. Plus early on, I already answered to the OP's topic.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Agreed @LisaDiane but you’re not going to get the LD partner who doesn’t initiate to suddenly start initiating. I completely gave up on it. If they really are responsive only they’re never going to have the feeling that HD partner might want them to feel.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> YES people *DO *turn down backrubs.
> 
> You don't get it because you are a normal, healthy person with an intact libido and want to connect with someone.
> 
> People that do not have the criteria above or do not have any desire or attraction for their partner do not want them rubbing on them or touching them *AT ALL. *


HOW can you be human and not want any physical contact with another person (especially your most favorite person) ever...??


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Men don't starfish, in my opinion. Men tend to do the sack of potatoes routine, when they lie upon their poor lady like a sack of heavy potatoes.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ccpowerslave said:


> I think the starfish is literally a starfish. Lay there (spread out) with no movement or interaction like a starfish.
> 
> I only ever noticed my wife doing this once but I am sure she did it many more times without me noticing. Eyes closed, no vocalization or movement, just me going away at it until I noticed. Once I noticed I actually felt disgusted.
> 
> For missionary to turn into starfish the woman would not be: touching you with her hands, looking at you, using her hips at all, no kissing, no arm movement, no vocalizing, etc...


Yes, but I didn't say they were the same. What exactly I said is, "I have frequently seen the term starfish on here [meaning the forum as a whole] referring to women who just enjoy the missionary position. "


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> Agreed @LisaDiane but you’re not going to get the LD partner who doesn’t initiate to suddenly start initiating. I completely gave up on it. If they really are responsive only they’re never going to have the feeling that HD partner might want them to feel.


If you don't post your story soon, I'm going to throw a temper fit...!

I never initiated much, because both men I've been with didn't like it - if THEY wanted sex, THEY initiated - but every time they did, I was excited and very receptive!!

Is initiating that important...??


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

MattMatt said:


> Men don't starfish, in my opinion. Men tend to do the sack of potatoes routine, when they lie upon their poor lady like a sack of heavy potatoes.


Well, there's that, too. But I think women like that for the most part. 

But now, Matt, pretty sure I've slept with more men than you have, or OldShirt for that matter, and some of them do starfish or, if you prefer, lay like a sack of potatoes on their backs while the woman does everything.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Folks, let's keep it classy and kind.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

The last sexual contact I had with my ex was when she offered me starfish sex as a birthday gift. My stomach turned and I walked away.

We had many other issues that lead to the end of our marriage. Starfish was just a symptom or indication of the rest.

How is the rest of your marriage?
Do you get along, enjoy each other’s company and feel loved by each other?
Has sex ever been energetic or seemingly pleasing to her?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, there's that, too. But I think women like that for the most part.
> 
> But now, Matt, pretty sure I've slept with more men than you have, or OldShirt for that matter, and some of them do starfish or, if you prefer, lay like a sack of potatoes on their backs while the woman does everything.


But do you mean those guys weren't into the stuff you were doing...? Were they just laying there bored, hoping you hurry up and finish? Or do you mean they were just being lazy?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Just lazy. They just wanted a BJ. This was the '70s and 80s. Most of them were crap in bed but getting sex on a regular basis under just about any conditions, I guess. Needless to say, they did not stay in regular rotation with any one woman....

Of course, in the '80s is when eventually AIDs emerged and in the late 80s, it became safer for them (but not foolproof) to try to just get BJs. That's when I slowed what passed for dating down to a slow crawl....

It's not a statement on all men in general. Some were quite sporting!


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Or else I just disagree with you and know men can be starfish too.


Over THREE THOUSAND posts in 6 months...yes, I’d say you disagree with just about every male poster, even the OP who is looking for help. Your advice to OP? Men do that also...LOL.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> We've had numerous conversations about it. She says she likes sex and says we are great together. Buts our sex life is lame. I've told her that a few times and then she'll act really interested for the next time...but then a week or two or three goes by with no sex (she'll never initiate) and then the next time we are back to our boring "quick and get it over with session"
> 
> I pretty much have given up as its been this way for a while and its too much effort anymore. Its easier just to go without.


Unfortunately, you are unlikely to change her attitude towards you or sex in general. There are two real options. I tried yours and it didn’t work for me. I have moved on from my ex (who sounds exactly like yours) and my sex life is fantastic. However, divorce is never easy, but it’s worth the reward IMO.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Is initiating that important...??


This is an interesting question. If what you want is to feel desired by your LD partner then what could be more obvious and great than them kicking things off?

This is the entry in my journal from when I realized she was never going to do it:



> This time she was bringing up marriage counseling. I am pretty sure she is never going to initiate except for the rare times that she feels like it.
> 
> The question is, do I care if she never initiates? I think probably not in that I can live with her never initiating again but that means every time I initiate I have to be open to rejection and I need to work on this.


So... yeah it was a big deal for me and I decided to stop caring or even trying for that.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> This is an interesting question. If what you want is to feel desired by your LD partner then what could be more obvious and great than them kicking things off?
> 
> This is the entry in my journal from when I realized she was never going to do it:
> 
> So... yeah it was a big deal for me and I decided to stop caring or even trying for that.


Hmm...ok, but in my dynamic with both my partners, I was a HD partner - my first husband was HD too, but my second husband was LD...how they BOTH explained it to me was, if THEY actually wanted sex, THEY would have already initiated. They both wanted my excited response to them initiating (and they always got it), but they didn't want the pressure of ME seeking sex from them when they weren't in the mood. I didn't initiate alot anyway, just sometimes, but neither of them ever wanted to when I did. I always tried to be accommodating, and I just wanted to give them what made THEM happy and excited, so I stopped initiating. My LD husband actually would get angry at me if I tried to rub between his legs when he wasn't "in the mood", so I really backed off on anything sexual unless he specifically asked for it!

Anyways, I always wonder if men REALLY want women to initiate more...or if they got that alot, would they start to feel pressured...??

My other question would be...what if you never worried about being rejected when YOU initiated...?? If it was a sure thing that you got enthusiastic sex every time you wanted it, would it make her initiating a non-issue for you?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Anyways, I always wonder if men REALLY want women to initiate more...or if they got that alot, would they start to feel pressured...??


Can’t answer for others but since my equipment works and hasn’t failed me ever (unless under extreme situations) I would like my limits tested. I’m sure there are women who can go more than I would want but I’d like to think even if I was really physically tired or even injured I could rally and do it. Famous last words.



LisaDiane said:


> My other question would be...what if you never worried about being rejected when YOU initiated...?? If it was a sure thing that you got enthusiastic sex every time you wanted it, would it make her initiating a non-issue for you?


No. 

It would be super easy to live with a relationship like that but it wouldn’t completely address my emotional need to feel wanted sexually. I certainly wouldn’t be looking to get out of such a relationship but it also wouldn’t be 100% perfect.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> Can’t answer for others but since my equipment works and hasn’t failed me ever (unless under extreme situations) I would like my limits tested. I’m sure there are women who can go more than I would want but I’d like to think *even if I was really physically tired or even injured I could rally and do it.* Famous last words.


Well, but also, doesn't this have an element of the "duty sex" that people resent?

Here's the thing...I just wonder if this is one of those "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it" things...because I know there was just a thread where a woman's drive skyrocketed at menopause, and her husband, while initially thrilled, after a few months was sick of it and they were only having sex once every few weeks after she backed off on initiating.

And then another thread where a guy said, men don't REALLY like to have their women initiate OFTEN. Once in a while is great, but they like being the seekers, the drivers, the initiators when it comes to sex.

You are telling me none of those points resonate with YOU at all...??


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> It would be super easy to live with a relationship like that but it wouldn’t completely address my emotional need to feel wanted sexually. I certainly wouldn’t be looking to get out of such a relationship but it also wouldn’t be 100% perfect.


But wouldn't her enthusiastic response to YOUR desire make you feel wanted sexually...??
Or are you holding out for that ONE specific way of having her desire demonstrated, and discounting any others?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Well, but also, doesn't this have an element of the "duty sex" that people resent?
> 
> Here's the thing...I just wonder if this is one of those "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it"


Maybe, I can’t think of a single time in my life where I had any “duty” intent. For me I have always been excited to go, and that included in my 20s when sometimes I would be going 4-5x a day I can see a possibility where that wouldn’t be the case but I haven’t experienced it so I can’t say how I would react.



LisaDiane said:


> But wouldn't her enthusiastic response to YOUR desire make you feel wanted sexually...??
> Or are you holding out for that ONE specific way of having her desire demonstrated, and discounting any others


It does. It’s not exactly the same though but I get what you’re trying to say and it has been something I have been working on to not get hung up on it.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> Hmm...ok, but in my dynamic with both my partners, I was a HD partner - my first husband was HD too, but my second husband was LD...how they BOTH explained it to me was, if THEY actually wanted sex, THEY would have already initiated. They both wanted my excited response to them initiating (and they always got it), but they didn't want the pressure of ME seeking sex from them when they weren't in the mood. I didn't initiate alot anyway, just sometimes, but neither of them ever wanted to when I did. I always tried to be accommodating, and I just wanted to give them what made THEM happy and excited, so I stopped initiating. My LD husband actually would get angry at me if I tried to rub between his legs when he wasn't "in the mood", so I really backed off on anything sexual unless he specifically asked for it!
> 
> Anyways, I always wonder if men REALLY want women to initiate more...or if they got that alot, would they start to feel pressured...??
> 
> My other question would be...what if you never worried about being rejected when YOU initiated...?? If it was a sure thing that you got enthusiastic sex every time you wanted it, would it make her initiating a non-issue for you?


I agree with this. 
My ex thought he wanted me to initiate, but what he really wanted was for me to wear something sexy and initiate only when he was in the mood so I was suppose to be a mind reader. 
My ex had a stressful job and had occasional al performance issues when he was stressed and didn’t sleep well, so I really added to the pressure when I put in a lot of effort (lingerie) and initiated. One time he couldn’t get it up, and I was so embarrassed sitting there in my lingerie feeling rejected. I felt bad, he felt bad and embarrassed. It wasn’t good.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I wholeheartedly agree with Lisa Diane. What men think they want is actually not what they want. Because I think it’s a pretty emasculating feeling when you can’t keep up with your wife, and she is not satisfied even when you are doing your best. 
How does it feel when the women can’t achieve orgasm during sex, and afterwords needs to masterbate by herself. I what if that happens frequently? What if you walk in on your wife masterbating to porn? 

I’m telling you, it wouldn’t make you feel great.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> A lot of women like the missionary position because they can relax and get off. but they also like it because a lot of women like to hold their man and not have him way off at arm's length. They want to kiss that face and feel close


Yes it's a splendid position for very close intimacy (lots of kissing) and it is also a great position since it works very well in getting a woman to have an orgasm from penetrative sex.

Yet that isn't what starfish is.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Let’s be real... what man would actually stay In a relationship if his wife was a TRUE starfish?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> Because I think it’s a pretty emasculating feeling when you can’t keep up with your wife, and she is not satisfied even when you are doing your best.
> How does it feel when the women can’t achieve orgasm during sex, and afterwords needs to masterbate by herself.


That's a pretty dismal situation for all involved, yet I think it's pretty common. Since I think more men than not, aren't very good at sex or of bringing women to orgasm.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> Let’s be real... what man would actually stay In a relationship if his wife was a TRUE starfish?


I'm sure there have been plenty on TAM. Since there have been lots of men who come in here, saying they haven't had sex in many years or they only have sex a few times a year at best.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Personal said:


> I'm sure there have been plenty on TAM. Since there have been lots of men who come in here, saying they haven't had sex in many years or they only have sex a few times a year at best.


But don’t you think it’s dumb of them to stay? I mean who in their right mind would stay with a women like that?


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Girl_power said:


> Let’s be real... what man would actually stay In a relationship if his wife was a TRUE starfish?


I did...for three more years than I had too...ugh. I didn’t exactly get starfish. I was actually told multiple, multiple times “don’t pinch it off. Get it done as quickly as you can” as she bent over. I’d try to aim for two minutes or less.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> But don’t you think it’s dumb of them to stay?


Absolutely.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> ...so I really added to the pressure when I put in a lot of effort (lingerie) and initiated. One time he couldn’t get it up, and I was so embarrassed sitting there in my lingerie feeling rejected. I felt bad, he felt bad and embarrassed. It wasn’t good.


On the other hand I have purchased lots of lingerie for my wife (I like it) and I can think of maybe only one time where she wore any of it and initiated in over 20 years. I have discussed it with her since I actively started working on trying to improve our sexual relationship and all she could tell me about it is that it’s uncomfortable.

I deleted and unsubscribed from every company I could so I stopped getting ads for stuff she’ll never wear.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

ccpowerslave said:


> On the other hand I have purchased lots of lingerie for my wife (I like it) and I can think of maybe only one time where she wore any of it and initiated in over 20 years. I have discussed it with her since I actively started working on trying to improve our sexual relationship and all she could tell me about it is that it’s uncomfortable.
> 
> I deleted and unsubscribed from every company I could so I stopped getting ads for stuff she’ll never wear.


I stopped wearing lingerie years ago. Probably after that day.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Girl_power said:


> But don’t you think it’s dumb of them to stay? I mean who in their right mind would stay with a women like that?


Maybe it is but divorce is REALLY expensive (been thru it once already) and who says you would meet a woman who is indeed REALLY into sex if you did leave? Personally I feel there are very few women and men matched who are or there would not be as many complaining about their six lives. I think very few couples are matched up sexually. My wife for example thinks she is very sexual and we have a good sex life. But to her that is 1 -2x per month and a 5 minute session where we both orgasm and thats it. Thats far from what I consider good hence I see us as mismatched.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

RebuildingMe said:


> I did...for three more years than I had too...ugh. I didn’t exactly get starfish. I was actually told multiple, multiple times “don’t pinch it off. Get it done as quickly as you can” as she bent over. I’d try to aim for two minutes or less.


Sounds familiar


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> It does. It’s not exactly the same though but I get what you’re trying to say and it has been something I have been working on to not get hung up on it.


I just think that it might be good for you to find ways to be satisfied with what you HAVE (which according to what you've described is pretty dang good compared to the rest of us) -- instead of being focused on the ONE thing you don't have...which you might not really enjoy that much if you actually HAD it.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RebuildingMe said:


> I did...for three more years than I had too...ugh. I didn’t exactly get starfish. I was actually told multiple, multiple times “don’t pinch it off. Get it done as quickly as you can” as she bent over. I’d try to aim for two minutes or less.


This is so horrible and soul-crushing...


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Maybe it is but divorce is REALLY expensive (been thru it once already) and who says you would meet a woman who is indeed REALLY into sex if you did leave? Personally I feel there are very few women who are or there would not be as many men complaining about their six lives. I think very few couples are matched up sexually. My wife for example thinks she is very sexual and we have a good sex life. But to her that is 1 -2x per month and a 5 minute session where we both orgasm and thats it. Thats far from what I consider good hence I see us as mismatched.


Dude, I’ve been divorced x2. What I have learned is that males and females don’t and will never have the same drive and view points on sex. Sex always declines as the relationship goes on, married or not. However, once married, it declines at a far sharper rate. You need to understand this and accept it. Play within those rules. Become aware. Once you understand that men and women want different things in a relationship, you will make far better choices. If you don’t want the “expense” of divorce, don’t get married again. It’s just that simple. Marriage is always a contract stacked against the man. Understand this and use it to your advantage. One more thing, don’t ever let sex and the desire (or lack thereof) of a woman, any woman, be the cornerstone of your happiness. Once you realize that you are the prize, sex will no longer be an issue. It will be in abundance. If not from one, from the other. If you doubt what I say, reread the responses you received from the certain feminist on this tread. At age 70, she still hasn’t gotten it and never will. Her viewpoints are, unfortunately, covertly shared by many women. It’s your job to weed that s*h*it out early. Don’t keep making the same mistakes.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> This is so horrible and soul-crushing...


Thankfully, that is in the past. Looking back on myself, I’m disgusted and disappointed that I allowed myself to stay in that situation as long as I did. Three prime years of my life I will never get back. Onward and upward!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Girl_power said:


> I agree with this.
> My ex thought he wanted me to initiate, but what he really wanted was for me to wear something sexy and initiate only when he was in the mood so I was suppose to be a mind reader.
> My ex had a stressful job and had occasional al performance issues when he was stressed and didn’t sleep well, so I really added to the pressure when I put in a lot of effort (lingerie) and initiated. One time he couldn’t get it up, and I was so embarrassed sitting there in my lingerie feeling rejected. I felt bad, he felt bad and embarrassed. It wasn’t good.


YES...those times of doing exactly what he said he wanted, only to have him tell me I was doing it wrong, or I misunderstood him...that was BRUTAL...!!!!

THAT confusion and rejection and feeling like a FAILURE were the only things that could shut my HD down fast and for a while...it still gives me a shudder remembering it...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> Dude, I’ve been divorced x2. What I have learned is that males and females don’t and will never have the same drive and view points on sex. Sex always declines as the relationship goes on, married or not. However, once married, it declines at a far sharper rate.


I've only been divorced once, yet what you describe hasn't been my experience through both of my marriages and other ongoing sexual relationships.

I'm (49) and over 24 years in with my (50) wife who, I have been married to for almost 22 years, and we have lots of sex very frequently throughout each week. Including often multiple times a day on weekends or days off, and we both initiate.

As to decline, my wife and I share sex mostly 6x a week and frequently 9x a week and often enough sometimes more than that as well.

Plus our shared repertoire activities has got better over time. In our first few years together, there was oodles of vanilla sex, plus anal, cum facials, swallowing and some light bondage.

Yet now deep into our 24th year, in addition to all of that, we sometimes share sex in public spaces. she often rims me, she often poses for sex photos, and we make sex movies. I sometimes pee in her mouth and often give her golden showers as well. I sometimes fist her vagina and she sometimes gives me prostate massages. Or she licks out the inside of my ass while pulling me off (after a shower of course). She does ATM and other newer things as well.

At the end of the day the longer we have been together, the better it keeps getting sexually.

Decline... Hah!

Perhaps you have been a significant common denominator in the decline you have experienced.

Of which over the years my wife has read plenty of discussions on Tam, and she has told me a number of times that, who someone is with and how they behave makes all the difference.

To the point that she is never surprised when she reads posts from men, claiming that their sex lives have tanked. With them behaving and thinking as they do. Putting women on pedestals, whining, being passive and passive aggressive, protecting their egos, thinking women don't like sex, whingeing, pleading and begging. Being too accommodating, apologising for their sexuality, not standing up for themselves, on and on etc. Seriously it's frequently like reading the perfect instruction manual of how to turn women off sexually.



> You need to understand this and accept it. Play within those rules. Become aware. Once you understand that men and women want different things in a relationship, you will make far better choices.


I guess if someone settles for less and believe that women don't want plenty of sex, then I guess they're going to experience plenty of that. So I think I'll keep not accepting it, so that I can continue to enjoy the rich sex life that I share.



> If you doubt what I say, reread the responses you received from the certain feminist on this tread. At age 70, she still hasn’t gotten it and never will. Her viewpoints are, unfortunately, covertly shared by many women. It’s your job to weed that s*h*it out early. Don’t keep making the same mistakes.


I am not sure which feminist you are referring to. Yet my wife is a Feminist (she even used to organise feminist marches, rallies and the like), and she loves sex. Since she gets to enjoy lots of great sex, which is why we share lots of it as a consequence.

So being a feminist, doesn't mean a woman doesn't enjoy sex.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Even worse (maybe) is when sex is very good but you can only get it a few times per year... I find that even more frustrating. Starfish is terrible and I would never go along with it, but when you know you can have very good sex and it's not "allowed", then it drives you completely mad.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Personal said:


> I've only been divorced once, yet what you describe hasn't been my experience through both of my marriages and other ongoing sexual relationships.
> 
> I'm (49) and over 24 years in with my (50) wife who, I have been married to for almost 22 years, and we have lots of sex very frequently throughout each week. Including often multiple times a day on weekends or days off, and we both initiate.
> 
> ...


Feminist have better sex. I too am a feminist and I love sex. I am comfortable with my body, I have always masterbated, I know how my body works and I take what I want (sexually).


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Girl_power said:


> Feminist have better sex. I too am a feminist and I love sex. I am comfortable with my body, I have always masterbated, I know how my body works and I take what I want (sexually).


I cannot comment on whether or not feminists have better sex. However, I believe their beliefs make it _harder_ for them to have sex as they immediately turn off a large segment of the male population. For the record, my feminist comment was not directed towards you.


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## 347055 (Nov 7, 2020)

RebuildingMe said:


> Sex always declines as the relationship goes on, married or not.


Disagree. Married more than 5 decades. Hasn't declined here, increased when the kids became adults, again when retired and had more time.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> .... I have gotten to the point where not having sex is almost better than having sex that really isn't any fun.
> 
> I think you all get the idea and sorry for any confusion from my original post. But I do appreciate everyone's input!


I got to this point as well. Having no partner is better than having a partner who does not really want you. Let me restate what I discovered. Having *NO PARTNER* is better than having a *Partner who does not want you. *I decided that I would tell my wife exactly that, although I didn't use those word. 

You need to decide what you can live with and what you can't.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> I just think that it might be good for you to find ways to be satisfied with what you HAVE (which according to what you've described is pretty dang good compared to the rest of us) -- instead of being focused on the ONE thing you don't have...which you might not really enjoy that much if you actually HAD it.


I agree 100% I have been working on it. Fixing pursuer/distancer HD/LD dynamics is a process and needs both people working on it. Journaling the process has helped with keeping an objective record of things.

When I first talked with my wife about it I wrote a list of things I wanted to improve about our sexual relationship and shared it with her. There were 12 items on there. Since then we have accomplished 9 things, 2 I have given up hope on and have mostly come to terms with, and 1 is a work in progress that I will probably never reach all the way but I am ok with if we maintain how we are now.

My wife mostly did not suggest changes for me or a wish list for herself but I made quite a lot of changes and had already been working on some of them for months before I talked with her.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Men that don't want to have sex with their wives golf and fish and go hunting with their buddies or they get with other women.


I would like to golf and fish and go hunting with my wife. And take plenty of breaks for sex.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> I disagree with this...it's called responsive desire.
> 
> And does anyone actually turn down a backrub...?? It's physical touching, it feels good, and if someone wanted to give a LD person a backrub for 30 minutes, they would love it, most likely - WHY is SEX so different?? Maybe your mind isn't into it, but allow your body to feel the pleasure and GET your mind into it!!!
> 
> I just don't get it.


My wife would often turn it down. Especially if she thought it would lead to something more.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> Hmm...ok, but in my dynamic with both my partners, I was a HD partner - my first husband was HD too, but my second husband was LD...how they BOTH explained it to me was, if THEY actually wanted sex, THEY would have already initiated. They both wanted my excited response to them initiating (and they always got it), but they didn't want the pressure of ME seeking sex from them when they weren't in the mood. I didn't initiate alot anyway, just sometimes, but neither of them ever wanted to when I did. I always tried to be accommodating, and I just wanted to give them what made THEM happy and excited, so I stopped initiating. My LD husband actually would get angry at me if I tried to rub between his legs when he wasn't "in the mood", so I really backed off on anything sexual unless he specifically asked for it!
> 
> Anyways, I always wonder if men REALLY want women to initiate more...or if they got that alot, would they start to feel pressured...??
> 
> My other question would be...what if you never worried about being rejected when YOU initiated...?? If it was a sure thing that you got enthusiastic sex every time you wanted it, would it make her initiating a non-issue for you?


This post was not to me but I'll add my take. I do not like my wife touching my leg or physically instigating things. (Just a personal thing). I would love it if she would instigate by wearing something skimpy. Making her body available for me to touch. Basically an invitation to be sexual. My wife likes to be aggressive when she initiates and it takes me out of the mood (something I need to work on). Is it possible that you never figured out the right way to initiate with your husbands?

I would love a woman to initiate in a way that speaks to me, but I've never experienced that, so I can't comment about feeling pressured.

We have gotten to a place were my wife wants me to initiate and she doesn't refuse, but it is still hard for me to always initiate and its still an issue; in my head anyways.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

So for my wife she will rarely if ever physically or verbally initiate.

If I accidentally end up making a Soufflé and the stars align she will but let’s say that is 2-3x a year max.

What I worked with her on was the idea where if she had the spark of an interest but wasn’t comfortable being aggressive to put up a signal for me so that I knew that if she had done the signal she would be receptive. In this case the signal could be something simple like a phrase or doing her hair a certain way or it could be more obvious like last night when she came to bed with no pants on.

I also quit initiating the way I had been for the quickie duty sex once every 2-3 weeks as I had been doing the last 10 years prior and actually tried to recreate how we were when dating and early in our marriage.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

leftfield said:


> We have gotten to a place were my wife wants me to initiate and she doesn't refuse, but it is still hard for me to always initiate and it is still and issue, in my head anyways.


Yeah... I hear you. What really helped me was her telling me straight up she’s just not going to aggressively initiate and if I really need that we need to go to counseling. That led me to the signal strategy and so far it has been working for us.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> Yeah... I hear you. What really helped me was her telling me straight up she’s just not going to aggressively initiate and if I really need that we need to go to counseling. That led me to the signal strategy and so far it has been working for us.


All these posts need to be in a single thread with YOUR WHOLE STORY...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

leftfield said:


> This post was not to me but I'll add my take. I do not like my wife touching my leg or physically instigating things. (Just a personal thing). I would love it if she would instigate by wearing something skimpy. Making her body available for me to touch. Basically an invitation to be sexual. My wife likes to be aggressive when she initiates and it takes me out of the mood (something I need to work on). *Is it possible that you never figured out the right way to initiate with your husbands?*
> 
> I would love a woman to initiate in a way that speaks to me, but I've never experienced that, so I can't comment about feeling pressured.
> 
> We have gotten to a place were my wife wants me to initiate and she doesn't refuse, but it is still hard for me to always initiate and its still an issue; in my head anyways.


NO...because THEY TOLD ME NOT TO...so I didn't, in order to please them. Neither of them ever complained that I didn't initiate. My STBX didn't really even want to have sex with me at all, so that's why he didn't like me initiating.

I wonder, has your wife ever worn something skimpy and given you "an invitation to be sexual", and you haven't responded sexually to her, and haven't pursued her for sex? Or has she never done that.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

RebuildingMe said:


> I cannot comment on whether or not feminists have better sex. However, I believe their beliefs make it _harder_ for them to have sex as they immediately turn off a large segment of the male population. For the record, my feminist comment was not directed towards you.


I know it wasn’t. I still believe feminists have better sex lives.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Reading some of these stories makes me think there is a *lot of work* going into these marriages with very little payoff. Mostly, stale and leftover crumbs that hit the floor weeks ago and even the dog passed up on them.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> I agree 100% I have been working on it. Fixing pursuer/distancer HD/LD dynamics is a process and needs both people working on it. Journaling the process has helped with keeping an objective record of things.
> 
> When I first talked with my wife about it I wrote a list of things I wanted to improve about our sexual relationship and shared it with her. There were 12 items on there. Since then we have accomplished 9 things, 2 I have given up hope on and have mostly come to terms with, and 1 is a work in progress that I will probably never reach all the way but I am ok with if we maintain how we are now.
> 
> My wife mostly did not suggest changes for me or a wish list for herself but I made quite a lot of changes and had already been working on some of them for months before I talked with her.


What were the 12 things if I may ask?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ccpowerslave said:


> Yeah... I hear you. What really helped me was her telling me straight up she’s just not going to aggressively initiate and if I really need that we need to go to counseling. That led me to the signal strategy and so far it has been working for us.


Thinking outside the box and communicating instead of just pouting has paid off for you in your relationship.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

RebuildingMe said:


> Reading some of these stories makes me think there is a *lot of work* going into these marriages with very little payoff. Mostly, stale and leftover crumbs that hit the floor weeks ago and even the dog passed up on them.


Thats what lead me to my Success Story post in another thread. I wonder how many of these situations "really" get turned around? And for long term not just 30 days or so.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Thats what lead me to my Success Story post in another thread. I wonder how many of these situations "really" get turned around? And for long term not just 30 days or so.


It comes down to ROI. For me, and this was a tough and expensive lesson to learn, time and effort is always better spent on a new relationship than trying to rehab and old one.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

RebuildingMe said:


> It comes down to ROI. For me, and this was a tough and expensive lesson to learn, time and effort is always better spent on a new relationship than trying to rehab and old one.


Good point. The one thing I have learned is I would never get married again. I believe people put more into a relationship when just dating in an effort to retain the partner. Once married, they don't care as much. At least in my experience of two marriages. Plus if you are not married, its easier to end it.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> All these posts need to be in a single thread with YOUR WHOLE STORY...


Hmm... yes you’re right!


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## ah_sorandy (Jul 19, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> NO...because THEY TOLD ME NOT TO...so I didn't, in order to please them. Neither of them ever complained that I didn't initiate. *My STBX didn't really even want to have sex with me at all, so that's why he didn't like me initiating.*
> 
> I wonder, has your wife ever worn something skimpy and given you "an invitation to be sexual", and you haven't responded sexually to her, and haven't pursued her for sex? Or has she never done that.


That's all I have ever wanted is to have a woman that initiates sex with me. Once or twice in nearly 46 years of marriage has not been nearly enough.

I'm looking to find a woman that initiates as much as I do. 50% plus 50% adds up to 100%. Showing desire goes both ways.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> NO...because THEY TOLD ME NOT TO...so I didn't, in order to please them. Neither of them ever complained that I didn't initiate. My STBX didn't really even want to have sex with me at all, so that's why he didn't like me initiating.
> 
> I wonder, has your wife ever worn something skimpy and given you "an invitation to be sexual", and you haven't responded sexually to her, and haven't pursued her for sex? Or has she never done that.


She has done it a few times when I ask her to. After asking for the thousandth time, I finally just gave up asking. For several years, I have been focusing on what she likes and not what I like.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Good point. The one thing I have learned is I would never get married again. I believe people put more into a relationship when just dating in an effort to retain the partner. Once married, they don't care as much. At least in my experience of two marriages. Plus if you are not married, its easier to end it.


You get a woman’s best early on in a relationship. Her best dress, weight, sex, honesty and fidelity. As time goes on, you’ll see her best slack off. Same probably goes for a man as well. Solution, don’t get attached.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Position has nothing to do with bad sex. Down by the river has adequately illustrated that bad sex is defined by attitude. 
I think that even no sex can be improved by the right attitude.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RebuildingMe said:


> You get a woman’s best early on in a relationship. Her best dress, weight, sex, honesty and fidelity. As time goes on, you’ll see her best slack off. Same probably goes for a man as well. Solution, don’t get attached.


I want you to know that I was the complete OPPOSITE of how you are describing women in LTRs (your last few posts, BTW!)...I KNOW I can't be the only woman/person like me, I bet there are many who's interest and love and care GROW the longer they are with someone!!



FloridaGuy1 said:


> Good point. The one thing I have learned is I would never get married again. I believe people put more into a relationship when just dating in an effort to retain the partner. Once married, they don't care as much. At least in my experience of two marriages. Plus if you are not married, its easier to end it.


THAT goes for YOU too!


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> I want you to know that I was the complete OPPOSITE of how you are describing women in LTRs (your last few posts, BTW!)...I KNOW I can't be the only woman/person like me, I bet there are many who's interest and love and care GROW the longer they are with someone!!
> 
> 
> THAT goes for YOU too!


Thats good. Unfortunately my only experience was with my ex and current wife and several years into the marriage, each has lost interest in trying to continue to make things better...and not just in the bedroom but with our finances and other matters. Both stopped working. Both lost interest in their appearance. Seems each lost interest in anything as time has gone by.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> I want you to know that I was the complete OPPOSITE of how you are describing women in LTRs (your last few posts, BTW!)...I KNOW I can't be the only woman/person like me, I bet there are many who's interest and love and care GROW the longer they are with someone!!


Sure love can grow. If often does. It’s just seldom messaged in the way the other partner wants to receive it. Without getting trapped into any generalizations, a woman might receive “love” as cuddling, holding hands, receiving flowers, etc. A man might want to receive “love” by initiating sex, being present during sex, wearing sexing clothes for him, etc. Seldom do these roads intersect as the relationship goes on.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RebuildingMe said:


> Sure love can grow. If often does. It’s just seldom messaged in the way the other partner wants to receive it. Without getting trapped into any generalizations, a woman might receive “love” as cuddling, holding hands, receiving flowers, etc. A man might want to receive “love” by initiating sex, being present during sex, wearing sexing clothes for him, etc. Seldom do these roads intersect as the relationship goes on.


Ok...that makes sense...but then why do you think they intersect more easily earlier in a relationship...? Shouldn't it get easier the more you get to KNOW eachother?


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> Ok...that makes sense...but then why do you think they intersect more easily earlier in a relationship...? Shouldn't it get easier the more you get to KNOW eachother?


Well, my theory is that one is so hell bent on impressing the other in the beginning, they are much more in tune with what the other person desires. As time wears on, as they ‘lock’ their partner in, they become complacent or even dare I say, selfish, in what they are willing to give. They take each other for granted. You are left with what the OP has, what I had, what you had and what over 50% of the population has....crap.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> It comes down to ROI. For me, and this was a tough and expensive lesson to learn, time and effort is always better spent on a new relationship than trying to rehab and old one.


I've always found the sexual relationships that don't feel like work are the sexual relationships that work. To me if a relationship requires effort and hard work in order to sustain it, then that relationship is a poor relationship to begin with. Since it shouldn't be an effort to enjoy being with a sexual partner who enjoys being with you.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Personal said:


> I've always found the sexual relationships that don't feel like work are the sexual relationships that work. To me if a relationship requires effort and hard work in order to sustain it, then that relationship is a poor relationship to begin with. Since it shouldn't be an effort to enjoy being with a sexual partner who enjoys being with you.


I agree. I think the moment when you have to start figuring out how to "talk" to your partner about why you are unhappy or what is wrong, its pretty much over or at least on its way to being over.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> You get a woman’s best early on in a relationship. Her best dress, weight, sex, honesty and fidelity. As time goes on, you’ll see her best slack off. Same probably goes for a man as well. Solution, don’t get attached.


Uh huh, is that what happens when you're doing it wrong?

My wife still dresses splendidly. As to her weight she doesn't go to the gym, yet she is still well within her weight range for her height and still looks good nekid. On sex I have addressed that earlier we swing from the chandeliers and share a rich smorgasbord of pleasures. Also as best as I can tell my wife is honest and I have her fidelity as well.

As time goes by, I mean how long are you talking about? Since soon enough I will be 25 years in, and my wife still dresses well, she looks splendid for her age and has always been a very attractive woman. the sex is terrific, we enjoy spending time together. Plus this is all after having kids and her maintaining an accomplished and successful career in the private sector and then government management roles.

Be a better partner and pick better partners.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I am not so sure about that. Presumably you’re not with the person if the sex was terrible the entire time (unless having religious or moral issues with sex before marriage).

So if it was good at one time, maybe for years, and now it isn’t I think you can look at what changed and maybe fix it. On the other hand if it doesn’t work then I think you also need to be willing to leave if you’re unhappy. 

For me the “work” part was really a period of two “hard” months where I was screwed up mentally and not sure it was going to work for me. Now I would say we are both in maintenance mode where we have a mutual understanding of what we each need to do.

Does it feel as effortless as during the NRE period? Not really and it’s also not as wild. But I’d say my frequency and variety is good enough to where I don’t think about it on a daily basis like I was before trying to improve it.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Personal said:


> Uh huh, is that what happens when you're doing it wrong?
> 
> My wife still dresses splendidly. As to her weight she doesn't go to the gym, yet she is still well within her weight range for her height and still looks good nekid. On sex I have addressed that earlier we swing from the chandeliers and share a rich smorgasbord of pleasures. Also as best as I can tell my wife is honest and I have her fidelity as well.
> 
> ...


OK now you are just bragging 

But seriously, I think you are one of the lucky ones.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Personal said:


> Uh huh, is that what happens when you're doing it wrong?
> 
> My wife still dresses splendidly. As to her weight she doesn't go to the gym, yet she is still well within her weight range for her height and still looks good nekid. On sex I have addressed that earlier we swing from the chandeliers and share a rich smorgasbord of pleasures. Also as best as I can tell my wife is honest and I have her fidelity as well.
> 
> ...


Quick question for you Personal...

Would you be as happy if she didn't do any of the risqué sexual things you all do? Like if she was just vanilla, missionary, would you still be as happy or would you even still be married to her? You don't have to answer, I'm just curious.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Personal said:


> Uh huh, is that what happens when you're doing it wrong?
> 
> My wife still dresses splendidly. As to her weight she doesn't go to the gym, yet she is still well within her weight range for her height and still looks good nekid. On sex I have addressed that earlier we swing from the chandeliers and share a rich smorgasbord of pleasures. Also as best as I can tell my wife is honest and I have her fidelity as well.
> 
> ...


You may be one of the rare ones. For that, you should be very grateful. I’ve been on this planet coming up on 50 years in a few months. It’s been my experience that people show you their true colors within a year. It’s hard for a human to hide their true self for much longer than that. Of course you need to know what you are looking for and be aware of the signs. I played poker for a living. Every living person has their “tells”. S*h*i*t, most of the people on TAM reveal themselves within a few posts.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Quick question for you Personal...
> 
> Would you be as happy if she didn't do any of the risqué sexual things you all do? Like if she was just vanilla, missionary, would you still be as happy or would you even still be married to her? You don't have to answer, I'm just curious.


I can't wait for his answer, although I think I already know what it is...!!


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> Sure love can grow. If often does. It’s just seldom messaged in the way the other partner wants to receive it. Without getting trapped into any generalizations, a woman might receive “love” as cuddling, holding hands, receiving flowers, etc. A man might want to receive “love” by initiating sex, being present during sex, wearing sexing clothes for him, etc. Seldom do these roads intersect as the relationship goes on.


Hmmm, or is the disconnect inherent in some men thinking that sharing sex is sharing love. Versus sharing good sex generates more sex, which affords a greater sharing of pleasurable experiences, which then helps ones connection and love?

At the end of the day if someone thinks that they can get and maintain a connection via sharing pleasurable experiences and confronting challenges together, they are on the right track. So if someone thinks that sex is a thing in itself, they have a better chance at sustaining a richer ongoing sex life. Whereas if someone thinks that sex is a consequence of the connection, they are more likely to find that sex dwindle. Since if sex is a consequence, then one doesn't necessarily need sex to have love.

Whereas if one thinks of sex as just being sex, they have a better shot of having a richer sex life, since sex then becomes a vehicle for connection that is desired because of the pleasure that sex itself can brings. So the sharing of the pleasure of sex is what sustains the desire for sex which helps to sustain a shared connection and love.

I've found with all of the women that I have been with, the way into their knickers and staying there was always never inherent upon my cuddling them, holding, hands and giving them flowers. The way to into their knickers and to more sex and more varied sex with them, has always been through being overtly sexual and lustful with them. When a woman says "you only want me for sex", I have always agreed with them and said "yes". Of which it isn't actually true to say "only", yet by my actions it is obvious that I want so much more.

Yet acknowledging my desire, not tiptoeing around it and not being afraid to say "I lust for their sex deeply". All helps to generate sexual feelings, by letting a woman know she is desired carnally in ways that are so extremely naughty.

Many men are often mistaken when they believe that coming at sex indirectly, by emphasising and trying to convince their mates that it isn't all about sex. Hoping that they will convince their mates to share sex with them by trying to distract them, and saying it's about love and not sex. They end up getting exactly what they generate, a level of disconnect, a demonstration of less desire and a mindset that sex isn't that important in their sexual relationships.

I worked this out as a teenager, if I was timid and apologetic of my desires, and patient, fawning and the like, I got nowhere fast. Yet every time, I was bold, forward and risqué with my desires, while being impatient and understanding that the girls wanted it as much as me. It was so easy to have them, want me to have my way with them. So I've just carried it through to now, knowing that if the sex is good a woman wants it just as much as a man if not more so.

Plus it's worth noting that my wife was a virgin until she was in her 25th year, and she has Catholic upbringing hangups as well. Yet I know if I walk up to her randomly and briefly run my teeth down her neck. Then whisper into her ear "later on I am going to ****** you till you're bow-legged", I know she's going to be thinking about having sex and it's going to excite her. Then when I do avail myself of her, she is already wanting it and more. The thing is though this kind of thing just works with everyone I have been with. That said if someone has seen years of not being like that with a partner and they do this out of the blue, I don't think it will work easily or at all, because one is not likely to be credulous in suddenly being that way.

Also on hand holding and the like, I date women I am with I talk to them because connecting with their mind maintains our connection. I've never presumed flowers are what to give a woman unless it is what they would like (yet flowers don't generate sex) and I don't buy my wife flowers at all.

I get more sex by being more sexual, I get more hand holding, by doing more hand holding, If I want more flowers I will give more flowers. I know my sexual partners more deeply, because I have always spent more time just talking to them.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> I can't wait for his answer, although I think I already know what it is...!!


Que potential disappointment...



FloridaGuy1 said:


> Quick question for you Personal...
> 
> Would you be as happy if she didn't do any of the risqué sexual things you all do? Like if she was just vanilla, missionary, would you still be as happy or would you even still be married to her? You don't have to answer, I'm just curious.


No I wouldn't be happy, yet I wouldn't have married her in the first place if it wasn't apparent that she was keen and happy to be doing a parade of wanton things with me. Since we wouldn't have been a good match to begin with.

Yet this isn't all about what I get out of it either, since I bring a great deal of pleasure through what I do and how I do it as well. Plus we could be doing different wanton things instead (which could make it okay), so it isn't just about what individual acts are shared or how they are shared.

It is also worth mentioning that vanilla missionary sex, is a standout amazingly wonderful way of having sex. Because it is incredibly intimate in that one can share kissing their partners mouth with wanton lust, through and beyond orgasm. Missionary also affords one of the best ways to bring a woman to orgasm via penis in vagina sex without any other aids. One can talk, smile and one can see their partners eyes and expressions. Missionary also affords easy access to nibble and bite a woman's nipples as she approaches orgasm. Likewise it allows easy access to a woman's neck and her ears. As it also allows a woman to access a mans chest, neck and ears. Plus missionary also affords easy access to put a digit or two up a woman's backside from beneath her bum while having sex with her. So missionary is awesome and is often the best sex to share with someone and I enjoy lots of it.

One of the splendid wows of missionary, is when kissing a woman while thrusting in and out. At the time when you have have the right cadence and angle, there is that moment of distinct change in the way that they kiss you. When it suddenly becomes more carnal, and it is like they are suddenly a wild very base and lustful animal. Whose kissing becomes so lusciously delicious and wanting. While their grip on you inside their vagina changes as they match your thrusts leading to their orgasm and the pleasure of their mouth and nether regions and everything else when they tip over to orgasm, which leads to that almost interminable pulsing and throbbing from them that ensues around ones penis through their lengthy orgasm.

That said this not being happy is all hypothetical. Since I have never been with any woman in an ongoing sexual relationship who wasn't always keen for lots of wanton debauchery.

I kid you not I was that 12 year old in 6th grade Primary School, who already had a girlfriend and had kissed girls plenty and had shared seeing and touching their rude bits. Then I was that guy at 15, who was snogging and often finger banging his 15 year old girlfriend. Then frequently having sex with his 16 year old High School girlfriend, at lunchtime while doing the wildest and sometimes very risky things sexually with her. All of this just came naturally and easily (so in that respect I'm lucky). The first time I had sex all the way, it felt like finally coming to my real home for the first time. Then after that I kind of just carried on expecting a rich sex life with women (because that's just how it works), and have had exactly that ever after.

If I had different experiences, no doubt I would have a different perspective. Yet in my experience with women, they love sex and want plenty of it.

Maybe possessing a certain je ne sais quoi, makes a big difference?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Personal said:


> Hmmm, or is the disconnect inherent in some men thinking that sharing sex is sharing love. Versus sharing good sex generates more sex, which affords a greater sharing of pleasurable experiences, which then helps ones connection and love?
> 
> At the end of the day if someone thinks that they can get and maintain a connection via sharing pleasurable experiences and confronting challenges together, they are on the right track. So if someone thinks that sex is a thing in itself, they have a better chance at sustaining a richer ongoing sex life. Whereas if someone thinks that sex is a consequence of the connection, they are more likely to find that sex dwindle. Since if sex is a consequence, then one doesn't necessarily need sex to have love.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. 

One has sex through being sexual and not through being non sexual. 

I am a sexual being and sexuality is a required necessity for me to be in a committed relationship.

To be in a committed, sexually exclusive relationship with me, that person must engage in sex with me, otherwise it would just be some form of friendship and I will be free to seek a primary sexual relationship elsewhere. 

No apologies. If you want a relationship with me, it will be a sexual one. If you don’t, I understand and no hard feelings and I wish you well. 

If you are in a relationship with me, I shall approach sexually at a reasonable time and expect participation. If one does not want a sexual relationship with me, they are free to terminate the relationship and I will expect such. And again, I understand and no hard feelings.

If I am rejected too many times without valid reason (of which there are very very few other than acute illness in which case I would not be initiating anyway) ... I will terminate the relationship.

Point being here - you have sex by having sex. You have it by someone starting it and other accepting the invitation.

If no one invites or no one accepts, then it doesn’t occur.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Personal said:


> No I wouldn't be happy, yet I wouldn't have married her in the first place if it wasn't apparent that she was keen and happy to be doing a parade of wanton things with me. Since we wouldn't have been a good match to begin with.
> 
> That said this not being happy is all hypothetical. Since I have never been with any woman in an ongoing sexual relationship who wasn't always keen for lots of wanton debauchery.


Ditto here as well. 

I would not be with a woman that was not sexual in nature with me and I have terminated a number of dating relationships when it was apparent the sex was not adequate.

However just as importantly, a number of women dumped me when it was apparent that I would not be a supplicating beta that would provide them with goods and services without a regular and high-energy sex life in place.

In other words they dumped me because they did not want to have a sex life with me and knew that I would not stop approaching/initiating and knew that I would not accept a sexless relationship and be a beta provider for them. 

Sex is not the ‘only’ thing I want out of a relationship. But it is a key requirement to where a relationship shall not remain in place without it. 

I have always made it known through word and deed that that is the case and people thusly have the option to opt out if the relationship if they don’t want to have sex with me and several have and that was their prerogative and I respect their choice.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Sex is not the ‘only’ thing I want out of a relationship. But it is a key requirement to where a relationship shall not remain in place without it.
> 
> I have always made it known through word and deed that that is the case and people thusly have the option to opt out if the relationship if they don’t want to have sex with me and several have and that was their prerogative and I respect their choice.


IMHO this is where a lot of these betas that haven’t had sex in years have dropped the ball. 

They have chosen to put their own needs as sexualities on the basement storage shelf and have agreed to continue to provide goods and services to their partner. 

They have sacrificed their manhood and sexualities at the alter of relationships and have pledged sexual exclusivity to someone who does not want to have with them and has been granted immunity from sexual relations with them.

They may whine and moan and complain, but it is by their own hand because the reason they aren’t having sex is because they are providing goods and services and not having sex.

They don’t have sex because they don’t have sex and have voluntarily removed sexuality from the marital menu. Sex is not a requirement for the continuation of the marriage. 

If sex were requirement to be married, the HD would either fire the LD for poor performance. 

Or the LD would resign because they do not want perform a key requirement of job description.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Just as some thoughts to the few above recent posts. I find myself in that situation as sex was hot and heavy when we were dating and now a few years later, its ice cold. Maybe part of it is me as it takes two in order to make things work but when the wife says things are fine and she loves our sex life, there doesn't seem like much interest on her part to work on it. Essentially, I am the only one who sees things are bad.

So the idea of not being with someone unless they are sexual is great but unfortunately in my situation it was not evident before we got married as it was sex everyday for years and now nothing. Well not really nothing but 10 min of sex every few weeks feels like nothing to me.

So I am left with the infamous two choices. Live with it or divorce,,,and both choices suck,


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Just as some thoughts to the few above recent posts. I find myself in that situation as sex was hot and heavy when we were dating and now a few years later, its ice cold. Maybe part of it is me as it takes two in order to make things work but when the wife says things are fine and she loves our sex life, there doesn't seem like much interest on her part to work on it. Essentially, I am the only one who sees things are bad.
> 
> So the idea of not being with someone unless they are sexual is great but unfortunately in my situation it was not evident before we got married as it was sex everyday for years and now nothing. Well not really nothing but 10 min of sex every few weeks feels like nothing to me.
> 
> So I am left with the infamous two choices. Live with it or divorce,,,and both choices suck,


You were the victim of the ole bait and switch. I see Personal’s point above, but it hard to give more of something the other person has made it clear they don’t want. You are aware you have two choices. They may both suck, but one will suck even harder if you let another 5 years go by.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Just as some thoughts to the few above recent posts. I find myself in that situation as sex was hot and heavy when we were dating and now a few years later, its ice cold. Maybe part of it is me as it takes two in order to make things work but when the wife says things are fine and she loves our sex life, there doesn't seem like much interest on her part to work on it. Essentially, I am the only one who sees things are bad.
> 
> So the idea of not being with someone unless they are sexual is great but unfortunately in my situation it was not evident before we got married as it was sex everyday for years and now nothing. Well not really nothing but 10 min of sex every few weeks feels like nothing to me.
> 
> So I am left with the infamous two choices. Live with it or divorce,,,and both choices suck,


I’m right there with you Brother so I know exactly what you mean. 

My wife also technically does consent to marital sex under certain times and conditions. 

........it just isn’t any good for me and I doubt if it’s any better for her either even though I basically try to stand on my head, rub my belly and blow bubbles at the same time to please her.

I have offered fair and equitable divorce.

I have offered open marriage.

She has thus far declined stating she wants to remain married and is willing to entertain a marital sex life - - - however I know she is simply performing it as necessary chore like cleaning a toilet after a bad case of dysentery 🤮 

She does orgasm regularly but nothing like back before menopause. She could be faking it but The reason I think they are actual orgasms and not fake is because if someone were to fake it, they would do a whole lot better than what these are. 

I too am at a crossroads of do I just suck this up and accept that this is the new normal and this is how it will be if I remain in this marriage. 

Or do I go with other options if I ever want to experience engaged and connected and enthusiastic sex again. 

Additionally, a growing part of me is also starting to think she will be happier and better off without me as well.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

So I heard all kinds of crap like, “I just don’t think about sex.” “It’s not a priority for me.” Blah blah, it’s all ******** and you know it because she did it before otherwise you probably never would have been with her in the first place.

You need to seek out the real reason(s). In her case it may be hormones, would she consider going to the doctor and getting checked for HRT? Perhaps something you’re doing is slamming on the brakes for her. You need to try and figure it out and also let her know you’re not happy with things remaining as they are.

Start executing on a plan of self improvement so that maybe you become more attractive either to her or whomever is next in line if you leave. If you are doing behaviors that are obviously stopping her in her tracks what workarounds are there?

To give some examples in my case my wife still has a fear of accidental pregnancy. Possible solution is double up on the birth control or get a vasectomy. Wife doesn’t like dealing with fluids during oral, possible solution is get flavored condoms. Even within that there is a spectrum, maybe you need to cycle through a bunch of different condoms to find one she likes. Once I did hey guess what now I can get oral to completion multiple times per week.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> Wife doesn’t like dealing with fluids during oral, possible solution is get flavored condoms. Even within that there is a spectrum, maybe you need to cycle through a bunch of different condoms to find one she likes. Once I did hey guess what now I can get oral to completion multiple times per week.


What is the fun of oral to completion if you have to wear a bag? She doesn’t like fluids? That one you should’ve seen coming (no pun intended). I’d say that one is a red flag you straight up missed. The days of wearing condoms should be done the minute you say “I do”.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Just as some thoughts to the few above recent posts. I find myself in that situation as sex was hot and heavy when we were dating and now a few years later, its ice cold. Maybe part of it is me as it takes two in order to make things work but *when the wife says things are fine and she loves our sex life*, there doesn't seem like much interest on her part to work on it. Essentially, I am the only one who sees things are bad.
> 
> So the idea of not being with someone unless they are sexual is great but unfortunately in my situation it was not evident before we got married as it was sex everyday for years and now nothing. Well not really nothing but 10 min of sex every few weeks feels like nothing to me.
> 
> So I am left with the infamous two choices. Live with it or divorce,,,and both choices suck,


@FloridaGuy1, my wife has essentially said the same thing to me dozens of times. It has taken me 20 years to get the kind of sex life I like. My suggestion to you is to read @Personal account about his experiences with woman and figure out how to implement that in your life.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

leftfield said:


> @FloridaGuy1, my wife has essentially said the same thing to me dozens of times. It has taken me 20 years to get the kind of sex life I like. My suggestion to you is to read @Personal account about his experiences with woman and figure out how to implement that in your life.


Yeah that would just require me leaving my current situation. I don't think meeting women if I were single would be too difficult, its just I hadn't planned on being single again!


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

ccpowerslave said:


> .......
> Start executing on a plan of self improvement so that maybe you become more attractive either to her or whomever is next in line if you leave. If you are doing behaviors that are obviously stopping her in her tracks what workarounds are there?
> 
> To give some examples in my case my wife still has a fear of accidental pregnancy. Possible solution is double up on the birth control or get a vasectomy. Wife doesn’t like dealing with fluids during oral, possible solution is get flavored condoms. Even within that there is a spectrum, maybe you need to cycle through a bunch of different condoms to find one she likes. Once I did hey guess what now I can get oral to completion multiple times per week.


I just had to quote this comment so you see it again.

For my entire life I was told a mans sexuality is to much and I must control it (Christian upbringing). In the last 6 months, I finally said the heck with it. My wife will never ask about my interests or want to explore them with me. So I just sat her down and told her every crazy sex idea I had been holding back. No filter, no dancing around the topic to protect her. I told her that all of them were possible for us and that everyone of her complaints could me managed (like in @ccpowerslave example above). Within two days my wife said she is fine with essentially all of it. (I wish I could go back 20 years and teach my younger self some things about sex).


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Yeah that would just require me leaving my current situation. I don't think meeting women if I were single would be too difficult, its just I hadn't planned on being single again!


Maybe. I have you tried anything like that with your wife?


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

leftfield said:


> I just had to quote this comment so you see it again.
> 
> For my entire life I was told a mans sexuality is to much and I must control it (Christian upbringing). In the last 6 months, I finally said the heck with it. My wife will never ask about my interest are want to explore them with me. So I just sat her down and told her every crazy sex idea I had been holding back. No filter, no dancing around the topic to protect her. I told her that all of them were possible for us and that everyone of her complaints could me managed (like in @ccpowerslave example above). Within two days my wife said she said she is fine with essentially all of it. (I wish I could go back 20 years and teach my younger self some things about sex).


That's pretty good if you can get it to work. I was unsuccessful at a similar attempt. And my ideas were just things like sex in the backyard, going to a topless beach or watching an erotic movie together. No such luck. 

Once again, the very reason I started this post.

I realize my situation and she is not going to change. She was married long term before our marriage so she's set in her ways. I just have to decide if going without is worth staying or not??? Not an easy decision.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

leftfield said:


> Maybe. I have you tried anything like that with your wife?


Yeah, mine isn't even into just plain vanilla sex more than a time or two a month let alone anything more risqué.

I essentially am trying to just increase our plain, vanilla sex life and then maybe makle it better and have discounted anything more "erotic" than that.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Yeah, mine isn't even into just plain vanilla sex more than a time or two a month let alone anything more risqué.
> 
> I essentially am trying to just increase our plain, vanilla sex life and then maybe makle it better and have discounted anything more "erotic" than that.


I hear you. My crazy ideas included things like haveing sex in the car on a date night (we have never done it). Or having oral sex in a the car. Or having a picnic in the woods then get it on. I think a lot a poeple would laugh at what I labeled crazy.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

leftfield said:


> For my entire life I was told a mans sexuality is to much and I must control it (Christian upbringing).


I stopped having to go to bible school when I got kicked out after laughing while the principal was trying to give me a beating. Fortunately for me I didn’t have to go to church for very long either.

Only now much later in life do I have any interest so I missed out on the sexual guilt part.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

leftfield said:


> I hear you. My crazy ideas included things like haveing sex in the car on a date night (we have never done it). Or having oral sex in a the car. Or having a picnic in the woods then get it on. I think a lot a poeple would laugh at what I labeled crazy.


I know what you mean. I've joked about some risqué things but even the jokes weren't meant with any good response so I knew anything more would be too much.

I did suggest we get a boat and we could go out and be naked in it and have all kinds of fun and then for three days after that I took a beating for suggesting buying a boat! Not as much the sex on the boat but the boat itself! I then said we could rent a boat instead and her reply was "I'm not talking about this dumb idea anymore". So needless to say that idea didn't "float".


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I know what you mean. I've joked about some risqué things but even the jokes weren't meant with any good response so I knew anything more would be too much.
> 
> I did suggest we get a boat and we could go out and be naked in it and have all kinds of fun and then for three days after that I took a beating for suggesting buying a boat! Not as much the sex on the boat but the boat itself! I then said we could rent a boat instead and her reply was "I'm not talking about this dumb idea anymore". So needless to say that idea didn't "float".


Jokes never go over well with my wife, but at least I'm getting the sex life I would like.

I am sorry to hear that about your boat idea getting wiped out.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

@farsidejunky, has one of the best sayings I have every seen. 

It goes something like; "How long are you going to let her remain in her comfort, while you are in discomfort".


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

RebuildingMe said:


> What is the fun of oral to completion if you have to wear a bag? She doesn’t like fluids? That one you should’ve seen coming (no pun intended). I’d say that one is a red flag you straight up missed. The days of wearing condoms should be done the minute you say “I do”.


Haha well I didn’t find that one out until after we were married. I rarely use them normally but will for oral and I went from almost zero oral to maybe more than I want.

You have to figure if you leave and you’re banging random chicks you’re wearing one all the time if you don’t want STDs.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> That's pretty good if you can get it to work. I was unsuccessful at a similar attempt. And my ideas were just things like sex in the backyard, going to a topless beach or watching an erotic movie together. No such luck.


I still think the way you have approached these things with her, haven't done you any favours. And the erotic movie watching proposal was to share the activity in a very passive and unappealing manner.

If you want to go to a topless beach with her, get in the car with her and just take her there. If you want to do sex in your backyard or while out and about, give it a go in the moment after you have got her going. There's lots of things that are better shared by getting on with trying them in the moment when your partner is aroused. The items that are probably best prefaced with discussions are things like sharing sex with others, doing anal sex, having your partner wear nipple clamps, golden showers.



> I realize my situation and she is not going to change. She was married long term before our marriage so she's set in her ways. I just have to decide if going without is worth staying or not??? Not an easy decision.


That said considering the picture you have shared.



FloridaGuy1 said:


> 51 year old male on second marriage. First one lasted 20 years and then ex bailed out on me for another guy. So *new wife of 5 years *is great but a few hangups have bothered me. She was all into sex when we first married and dated and now she's not.





FloridaGuy1 said:


> *Next issue is she doesn't work. Said she can't find a job but her lack of work is killing us financially.* I work around 50 hrs a week and make decent money but if she was working, we could really be making a huge amount in our future savings. My goal is to retire by 60 and travel as I love going places.





FloridaGuy1 said:


> She worked when we met and got married. She got let go and then hasn't worked since. She has a masters degree so to me finding a job should be easy for her.
> *She was into sex and alot of things when we got married. Oral, anal, you name it. Now its just missionary to get "get it done".*





FloridaGuy1 said:


> - *She may be depressed as she has put on weight and just enjoys sitting around alot and goes to bed early (8 or 9 pm) each night*


The longer you stay married to her, the deeper the hole you will find yourself in. Which will make it even harder to get out without bleeding plenty.

So despite divorce not being a fun activity, if I were you I'd be choosing that path as soon as possible, since waiting will only make it much worse for you.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Actually what @Personal wrote there is super helpful with the quotes pulled out. You could almost take the bolded bits out and use it as a conversation. “We used to be X. What happened?”


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Assuming I don’t have you confused with someone else, when you first started a thread about her some time ago the advice you got was to move on. The advice still stands. The longer you stay the worse it will get as she becomes more and more comfortable with her life (she doesn’t seem to care too much about your life). Reality is she has it made now. You don’t.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

All this talk about "starfish". I like being a ragdoll. Is that OK? Or is that just as horrible as a starfish?


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