# Family Budget and Medical Expenses



## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

OK. I am fed up and don't know what to do.

First, given that you are working on a budget, what do people do about medical expenses?

Lets say you and your spouse each need a filling. For either of you, the cost to see the dentist would be $300.

Now assume you have exactly $300 in your budget each year that you can spend on the dentist. Should one of you go this year and one wait? Or do you both go, and leverage some sort of credit to pay?

Second, if each year you set aside $$$ for medical expenses, and each year the money is spent on your kids and/or your spouse, is it reasonable at some point to expect your spouse to prioritize your needs over hers?

Last year we spent thousands on my significant other, and nearly zero on me. The year before was much the same. This year I made it clear that I needed to have some dental work done. I made it clear that I was waiting until later in the year to do so, just in case we needed our FSA money for some emergency with the kids. I intended to wait until the Fall or Winter, or until the pain of my tooth ache became too much to bear.

Well, while I was waiting, she went ahead and visited an ear specialist (she had an intermittent ringing, which occurred AFTER being exposed to loud noises). That cost us hundreds out of our FSA. She did not tell me beforehand that she was going.

Now she tells me she intends to go to the dentist herself.

Am I wrong to tell her, "No! You have spent enough on your own health needs these past 2 or 3 years, it is my turn now."

She feels that we can just leverage credit in order to pay for both of our needs. Our budget is so tight that I am concerned about adding additional monthly payments.

Help!


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

TheOnceler said:


> Am I wrong to tell her, "No! You have spent enough on your own health needs these past 2 or 3 years, it is my turn now."
> 
> She feels that we can just leverage credit in order to pay for both of our needs. Our budget is so tight that I am concerned about adding additional monthly payments.
> 
> Help!


No you are not wrong. Tell her. The budget is there for your benefit as well as hers. It's rather rude, in my opinion, that she would ignore your needs when you have given her advance warnings of your intentions. Unless there is an emergency in her situation, I agree that it is your turn to attend to your own medical issues at this time.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> No you are not wrong. Tell her. The budget is there for your benefit as well as hers. It's rather rude, in my opinion, that she would ignore your needs when you have given her advance warnings of your intentions. Unless there is an emergency in her situation, I agree that it is your turn to attend to your own medical issues at this time.


Thanks for your input.

I find it hard to be objective, ESPECIALLY with her and where money is concerned. Based on a bunch of stuff, I know that I already come from a position of resentment when it comes to the money that she spends (my money!). So, it is even harder for me to have anything approaching an objective view.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Onceler, make an appointment. Go to the dentist and fix your teeth. Tell her your doing it and that's that.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> Onceler, make an appointment. Go to the dentist and fix your teeth. Tell her your doing it and that's that.


I appreciate your input, truly.

I should be clear: I am perfectly happy to go to the dentist. The problem is that of the $1500 I put aside to fund my root canal repair, she already spent $800 on herself. So, the money is no longer there.

This is after last year, where of the $3000 I put aside for medical expenses, she spent $2200 on herself ($500 went toward the kids, and a few hundred toward my physical therapy).

I had to put aside less this year because I was still recovering from having to buy her a new car last fall.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> No you are not wrong. Tell her. The budget is there for your benefit as well as hers. It's rather rude, in my opinion, that she would ignore your needs when you have given her advance warnings of your intentions. Unless there is an emergency in her situation, I agree that it is your turn to attend to your own medical issues at this time.


Well, I told her.

Her response was twofold: first, she told me that never told me that I needed to delay my medical/dental care. That was my choice.

Second, she has no intention of postponing her care. She feels that we should both just go, regardless of the cost. She says, "We'll figure it out". She is content that we can just enter into some payment plan (as if that is 'free' money).

Most days I can tolerate her. Days like today, I just hate her.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

TheOnceler said:


> Well, I told her.
> 
> Her response was twofold: first, she told me that never told me that I needed to delay my medical/dental care. That was my choice.
> 
> ...


Does she work? Can you tell her "no problem, just get a second JOB to pay for it?"

Me, I would feel guilty. If I needed extra money, I would have a yard sale, second job, do daycare, crafts, anything to bring in that extra income. So what about your wife? Does she have a solution (contribution) to offer in exchange for these additional debts she wants to rack up?


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> Does she work? Can you tell her "no problem, just get a second JOB to pay for it?"
> 
> Me, I would feel guilty. If I needed extra money, I would have a yard sale, second job, do daycare, crafts, anything to bring in that extra income. So what about your wife? Does she have a solution (contribution) to offer in exchange for these additional debts she wants to rack up?


No.

She is a stay at home mom. She had a career before the first baby came, but she has not worked now for 4 years.

I should offer some background: She is NOT my wife. We dated on and off for years. Ours was a very volatile relationship. We were not violent. We just got into a pattern of breaking up and then making up.

Anyway, we broke up for what I thought would be the final time. She moved back here to the east coast, and I stayed on the west coast. It was about 9 months after our 'final' breakup when we met up unexpectedly, fooled around, and got pregnant.

When the dust settled, I decided to drop everything, change jobs, and move across country. We planned to 'play house' and see if we could make it work.

I offered to work and allow her the freedom to stay at home.

We now have two girls (the second pregnancy happened while we were trying to make a go of our relationship - we weren't trying for a second baby, but complications with post-natal birth control messed us up). We co-parent, but for the most part, we have no relationship. We are stuck with each other, but so long as I don't rock the boat, things are mostly OK around the house.

When we do fight, it is frequently about finances.

I recognize that I have a LOT of resentment around our finances, so it is hard for me to be objective.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

TheOnceler said:


> No.
> 
> She is a stay at home mom. She had a career before the first baby came, but she has not worked now for 4 years.
> 
> ...


Maybe it's time to renegotiate the agreement? I get where you are coming from. In this economy, it takes two incomes. Even with children at home, she can earn an income opening up a day care until your children are in school full time. That's what I did when my sons were small.

But you really do have a realistic and valid point, so try not to slam yourself for your financial concerns. Money doesn't grow on trees. People that don't "earn" it sometimes do get a little carried away and forget to be cautious. Or they develop a sense of "entitlement" and ignore the effort the wage earner makes to put bread on the table.

The "big picture" is that, not only should you have enough money to live on, and a "budget" for emergencies, but also a cushion because you just never know. Both parties should contribute financially to the union and neither adult is "entitled" to the funds of the other. 

And no, technically you are not "stuck with each other" in the financial sense of the phrase. You may be "stuck" with child support, but she as a grown woman and is responsible for herself. If you pay it now, fine. If you chose not to, that's fine to. You don't owe her. You owe your kids.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> Maybe it's time to renegotiate the agreement? I get where you are coming from. In this economy, it takes two incomes. Even with children at home, she can earn an income opening up a day care until your children are in school full time. That's what I did when my sons were small.
> 
> But you really do have a realistic and valid point, so try not to slam yourself for your financial concerns. Money doesn't grow on trees. People that don't "earn" it sometimes do get a little carried away and forget to be cautious. Or they develop a sense of "entitlement" and ignore the effort the wage earner makes to put bread on the table.
> 
> ...


I have often thought about 'renegotiating', but aside from a full split, I don't know what might be a viable option. I am open to suggestions.

She is looking into a business venture based on her previous career. She has already slammed the door on the notion of a day care arrangement at our house.

She and I have always had different approaches to our finances. I was more conservative. She was more interested in immediate gratification. When we did come together, she came with thousands and thousands in debt. I came with many more thousands in savings, which we spent on moving expenses and initial baby expenses. I also came with investments, which I have since parlayed into a down payment on the house that I bought.

But I was surprised by her debt, because when I knew her, she was prone to relatively a relatively lavish lifestyle. I assumed that she made enough money to finance that lifestyle. Now I know better. She just rationalized a way to float the debt.

We *have* a modest cushion, but she keeps eating into it. I have a hard time preventing it because she often couches her spending as 'things for the kids'. When I talked about my current concerns about medical spending, part of her retort was a guilt trip, asking me, "Don't you want me to be healthy for the kids?"

As if that was what the conversation was about.

I say we are stuck because I am unwilling to take steps to separate. As I noted, we tend to be volatile together. I fully expect World War III if I suggest a 'divorce' (what do you call it when an unmarried couple splits?). I am literally afraid of what would come. I hate the notion of being separated from my girls, and I am fairly concerned that she would try to keep them away from me, merely out of spite.

To facilitate our situation, we set up a joint checking account, and my paycheck goes there. This gives her a common account to draw from for groceries and such. It has been suggested that I close that account and dole out money to her as needed. I have suggested that (in anger), and her response was basically that she would not stand for it. She would leave, or worse yet, she would stay, but stop shopping, cleaning, cooking, etc.

I am sure that I am not objective about all of this, and I am not a saint, but it really feels to me at times like she is one of the most selfish people in the world. It is a strange feeling to love your children so dearly, and at the same time wish you had never met their mother.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

TheOnceler said:


> I had to put aside less this year because I was still recovering from having to buy her a new car last fall.


Seems to me like your problem is you don't know how to say and enforce the word NO.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Wow, I know I would be deeply offended if any man for whom I had made the sacrifice of giving up my career to raise our children talked about "his" money. Unless you are leaving work early, staying home with the kids, taking care of all their daily needs at the same pace as her--and losing out on career opportunities, you cannot say that you are doing an "equal" amount, so be realistic before you start justifying it as "your" money. 

Having said that, it is of course unreasonable and a form of betrayal that she took money she knew you had expected to use on your own health.

If you cannot trust her to respect your medical needs in the way you respect hers (and this is one where a compromise, or agreed-upon divisio of the money based on individual needs should have been easy), you may just need to start a separate account for your medical expenses and put a certain percent into that. Don't do it secretly, just tell her that you understand she has health concerns but so do you, and you are starting a separate account for saving for your own needs. 

Be fair in deciding how much to put toward yourself, of course. Women need more annual/bi annual tests than men do, so we are usually "more expensive" to maintain in this. Mammograms and pap smears are needed every year or two, depending on one's health history. But other than that, a basic physical is about the same. Consider also that women need birth control and certain supplements (calcium, in particular) after a certain age. All of the things I mentioned are usually essential to a woman's long term health. Skipping an exam once in a 5-10 year period is ok, though. So plan long-term with her participation. Maybe she can forego some of the routine testing for one year, and that is the year that you get yours, plus you can save more for the next year. I hope that makes sense (a mammogram is a lot, so skipping it would cover an annual and leave some left over for the next year, too). 

Good luck; I hope this helps.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

TheOnceler said:


> I am sure that I am not objective about all of this, and I am not a saint, but it really feels to me at times like she is one of the most selfish people in the world. It is a strange feeling to love your children so dearly, and at the same time wish you had never met their mother.


You do realize that if you don't take action like yesterday, this will continue to fester until you end up with bankruptcy due to her issues. Look at her past. All that debt. History repeats. You have to take control. Now. 

So yes, you should not allow her access to your paycheck. Have a separate account. Give her an allowance until she gets a job and contributes. She is bluffing about the housework (like a brat having a temper tantrum). Surely your children will have food to eat and clean clothes to wear. Their mother isn't that shallow, is she?

You will always have your children. I assume your name is on the BC, which means that no matter what she does and where she goes, those children will always be a part of your life. Sadly many relationships do break up, but the particular relationship with the children does not if you don't let it.

Ironically it is you that has the power here. She is bluffing as she is financially irresponsible and is calling your bluff to see what you will do. If you do nothing, things will only get worse and she knows it. I would think that, deep inside, she is hoping you will let this blow over and not take any action at all.

I feel for you. I have known many selfish people in my lifetime. People that actually believe that they are entitled to what you worked for. It's not enough for them that you give them freely most of the time; it's the license they take when they feel entitled to more. Maybe I'm projecting my own little issues here, but people like that do make me angry and it just seems to be getting worse.

I hope you can formulate a plan to stop this from getting worse than it already is.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

sisters359 said:


> Wow, I know I would be deeply offended if any man for whom I had made the sacrifice of giving up my career to raise our children talked about "his" money. Unless you are leaving work early, staying home with the kids, taking care of all their daily needs at the same pace as her--and losing out on career opportunities, you cannot say that you are doing an "equal" amount, so be realistic before you start justifying it as "your" money.
> 
> Having said that, it is of course unreasonable and a form of betrayal that she took money she knew you had expected to use on your own health.
> 
> ...


I guess some additional background is in order.

She and I had dated for years, off and on. Six or seven years, I'd say. During that time, she had always been on the pill. She had been on the pill almost permanently since she was about 14 years old. She told me this. So, we were NEVER in the habit of condom use.

When we had that final chance encounter, she had stopped taking the pill a few months before. She did not mention this to me at the time, and did not suggest a condom when it was evident that we were headed for sex.

I later discovered that she had been having sexual relations with many, many other men - both during the years that we dated on and off, and also during the final nine months apart. Of course, that was mostly her prerogative, but it seemed strange that she was on the pill and highly promiscuous, then suddenly dropped the pill, arranged to meet me, and engaged with sex with me without mentioning the lack of birth control.

So, I come from a place where I can't help but feel as if she trapped me with the pregnancy.

In addition, when we decided to make a go of it, I went all in. I spent thousands and thousands of dollars on all of the initial baby costs - furniture, clothes, a car for her (she did not own a car when she got pregnant), etc. I spent well over ten thousand dollars in the first month, and eventually exhausted my savings.

It was only about a year later that I learned that she had a secret bank account where she had hidden a few thousand dollars. I was led to believe that we had both gone 'all in' on the initial finances. I was lied to.

Maybe I am wrong, but it seems to me that she is extremely lucky to be in her situation. She is not my wife or girlfriend. She offers me nothing in the way of a relationship - we don't spend time together aside from 'family' activities, there is no sex, there is no affection.

It seems to me that I provide a better life for her than she could have done on her own, and I get little in return. I pay for her home, her food, her clothes, her car, her insurance, her college debt, her credit debt, etc. I am more than happy to provide for my kids, but I resent that I provide for her, and she shows no appreciation. I don't expect her to thank me daily, but she could show appreciation by trying to respect my financial concerns, but trying to be frugal, but treating me fairly. I don't feel that she does this at all.

Here is a simple case in point: we found a small health club that was local and had inexpensive dues, so we carved out the money for both of us to join. We both felt it was important to have that outlet, and for myself, I needed a place to go to continue my physical therapy (blown discs).

However, she did not enjoy the classes that the club offered. She liked some of them, but not many. So, she began supplementing with exercise classes at other locations where she paid per session. Before long, her monthly health club expenditures had tripled. When she then started talking about even MORE costly options, I reminded her that she had already gone well above our original intended budget, and only because she preferred having the options.

Her response was the typical 'scorched earth' response. She accused me of not wanting her to be healthy, of not wanting her to feel attractive, etc. All I wanted to know was, where was the additional money supposed to come from?


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Seems to me like your problem is you don't know how to say and enforce the word NO.


This is true to an extent.

However, this is how these things typically go.

Her: "I need a new car."
Me: "You have a car."
Her: "Now we have two kids - I need a bigger car"
Me: "The car seems big enough. The neighbors drive one, and they have two kids."
Her: "If you loved the kids, you would buy the car."

OR

Her: (in front of the kids) "Your father doesn't love you enough to get you a new car"




You get the idea?


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I'm with Mavash. The emotional blackmail works on you, so she has no reason to change anything she does. Why would she? She's got it good as is.


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## Tikii (Jun 21, 2012)

My husband and I have thousands of dollars in medical bills, all from me. When something needs to be done, I go. My health, and his when needed are far more important than remaining off of the payment plans. We spend hundreds every month on bills trying to pay off my last 6 ER visits. Health is far more important than money I think this problem is far behind medical care. You need to tell her that the arrangement isn't working and she needs to get a job.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Wow, this woman is using and abusing you. Go separate immediately. You are an idiot(sorry) for entertaining her for so long and giving into her excuses. And you guys don't even have sex? You will saving even with child support. Stop supporting her leeching, gold digger ass.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Also are you sure that they are your kids? I would get a DNA test if I were you.


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

TheOnceler said:


> This is true to an extent.
> 
> However, this is how these things typically go.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a spoiled brat. That you spoil not to have to hear her tantrums. I agree with mavash. Just say NO!!!! Who cares what she tells the kids. Tell them you have to do what'd best for this family and a new car isn't it!! To put it bluntly, grow some man!!


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

I guess I am in the minority, as the wife and mother, I put my husband and children's health before my own, with regards to expenses, with the exception of this year, I had a major issues that could not be ignored and we had to spend a little extra on top of their stuff to cover my own... but that is over now and so back to resolving their dental things before my own... one day I will pay for it by needing dentures..... lol. But I believe in sacrificing in some areas to keep your family happy, and as I said for important things (mine was a major health scare) different story, but dental, my family comes before me... sounds like your wife has gotten into a selfish habit and you need to set a way to better budget or put a limit or she needs to contribute monetarily to her own expenses.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

TheOnceler said:


> Her: (in front of the kids) "Your father doesn't love you enough to get you a new car"
> 
> You get the idea?


This is called emotional blackmail.

Your answer is to say in front of the kids. "No kids I love you dearly but I'm still not buying you a new car that we can't afford".

Your wife is acting like a child. My 9 year old has pulled stunts like this. "If you loved me you'd let me whatever". I hug her and tell her I love her plenty but the answer is still no.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> I'm with Mavash. The emotional blackmail works on you, so she has no reason to change anything she does. Why would she? She's got it good as is.


I certainly struggle with this.

I am the type to 'bend like reed', or perhaps 'lay down like door mat'? I know this about myself, but even as I try to work on that issue, it is hard for me to 'know' what is right and fair.

So, I find myself uncertain even of the position that I should be taking. And then in the face of that, I am dealing with a person who will start a fight in front of the kids when she doesn't like what I am saying.

I don't want to fight in front of the kids, so I typically drop the subject, and then it goes on the back burner.

I know I need to work on this.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

enoughisenough said:


> That your wife is not earning is irrelevant. Four years is not very long and she is caring for your children as her side of your partnership. That shouldn't even come into it.
> 
> It is reasonable that you are upset that your needs always seem to come last. The problem with dental care is that if you leave it then it is likely to cost you more the longer you wait. Would your dentist negotiate a payment plan? I find that many will and if you paid half the cost up front each then paid off the other half that might be a good compromise. Otherwise, if I had to choose, I'd say that the person who has the most urgency should go first and then save over the coming weeks for the next person to go. If one is in pain and the other isn't, for example, the person in pain should go first.
> 
> It sounds like your budget may need a bit of readjusting. Or maybe medical insurance with more dental coverage. If this is not possible then maybe your wife could work a couple of days a week if it fits with childcare needs, both your priorities and the demands of your career on the family.



I am not entirely certain that I understand your initial point, but I will make my position clear, for better or worse: I feel that she is lucky as hell to be in the position that she is in. The kids are mine (and yes, I had our older girl DNA tested after I learned off all the men that she had been with in the weeks before I saw her again). I will happily give all that I have to my girls - that is not in question.

However, I owe nothing to her. As far as I am concerned, she contrived to become pregnant. That does not absolve me of my responsibility to my children, but it does to her.

Even so, she did NOT want to have to be a working single mom, so I agreed to take on her debts and finance a household, and in return, she would stay home to be a full time mom. Most all of our friends are working moms and are jealous as hell of her.

I pay her credit card debt (that she had BEFORE she got pregnant), I pay her college loan, I provide a nice home in a nice neighborhood, and I bought her the car of her choosing. She has full access to my paycheck, and in addition to necessities, she goes out with her girlfriends a couple nights each month, she spends hundreds of dollars on her hair and such, etc.

I feel that all the 'perqs' that I provide are more than adequate compensation for the child care that she provides. I am sure a Nanny would cost me less.

And I was fine with all of this, so long as the kids were taken care of and our bills were paid. But slowly, little by little, she has stressed our budget to the breaking point, and most recently, but usurping my chance at dental car that I have been putting off for MONTHS so that she could have work done that she wanted/needed.

By the way: I am extremely involved with my girls. I am out of the house from like 5:00 AM until 6:00 PM most days for work. and two nights a week I have physical therapy, so I am not home until 8:00 PM.

However, on the other nights, SHE goes out (she is out having a drink with a girlfriend now, or at least, that is what she told me) and I stay home with the girls. Tonight I read to them, played 'horsey', played dolls, played in the toy kitchen, changed diapers, combed hair, etc. My day does not end when I punch out at work. It is really only just getting started then.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

Tikii said:


> My husband and I have thousands of dollars in medical bills, all from me. When something needs to be done, I go. My health, and his when needed are far more important than remaining off of the payment plans. We spend hundreds every month on bills trying to pay off my last 6 ER visits. Health is far more important than money I think this problem is far behind medical care. You need to tell her that the arrangement isn't working and she needs to get a job.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The thing is, I don't WANT her to get a job.

More precisely, I don't want her to get a part time job. If we are going to have her working and utilizing daycare at all, then I just assume that she gets the heck out of my house.

I will be happy to pay child support, and to maintain my own home, where the girls will be at least half of the time, if I am lucky.

I'd rather that their mother was out of my life, but so long as she lives up to her side or our bargain, I am content to continue as is. But if she is intent on ruining my finances, and in so doing failing to hold her end of the bargain, then I'd rather cast her loose.

I mean, why not? She shows me no affection, there is no sex in our life (which is maddening because she is incredibly attractive), and she does little to support me in any way. It is not as if we have some strong bond, and the relationship troubles are stressing it. She and I are roomies. I can tolerate her on a personal level, but if we did not have the kids, I would be a thousand miles away from her.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> Also are you sure that they are your kids? I would get a DNA test if I were you.


I did.

It is a long story, but early on after the baby was born and we started living together, I stumbled upon a suspicious email in her inbox. That led me to read further, and it was only then that I began to discover the number and types of sexual partners that she had. I then became obsessed with knowing the truth, and over a period of days and weeks the truth (or at least most of it) came to light.

One of her sex-friends had actually been invited to the baby shower that we had. Can you imagine?

Yes, I know that it was wrong of me to snoop. I saw the first email innocently enough (I opened gmail, and it went by default to her previously opened session). When I saw that tagline about 'missing you in my bed' - well, I could not help myself but to look. Can you really blame me?

But I digress...

Once I realized the number of different men, and how recently she had been with them before we were supposed to have conceived, well, I went ahead and had a DNA test done.

So, at least I can be certain that the kids are mine.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

TheOnceler said:


> So, I find myself uncertain even of the position that I should be taking. And then in the face of that, I am dealing with a person who will start a fight in front of the kids when she doesn't like what I am saying.
> 
> I don't want to fight in front of the kids, so I typically drop the subject, and then it goes on the back burner.
> 
> I know I need to work on this.


She's using the kids as pawns to get what she wants. And you need to stop it.

Start by pausing. Take 24 hours out before you give her an answer on big things like a car. Get away and clear your head first. Come here and ask us.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

It sounds like you're being used, and could do with a good read of the "No More Mr. Nice Guy". Start "manning up", and I don't mean to be insulting about it.

Also, keep in mind what kind of marriage you're teaching you're kids is "normal". Is this really what you want for them? Because this is what you're putting up there as an example.

C


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

I don't want to give the wrong impression here.

I am not denying her any needed health care. When she was pregnant, she got any and all care that she felt she needed.

I arranged to take 3 weeks from work to be home with her and the newborn, for both our kids.

She amazingly managed to break her foot just days prior to giving birth to our second daughter, and she had all the necessary health care after that.

Then the following year, she wanted to have some elective surgery. She has many little fat nodules all over her body, under her skin. They are benign, but she doesn't like the way they look or feel, and a few were even impinging on nerves at times. So, we set aside thousands for her to have many of these removed. I agreed to postpone my own dental needs, and I opted to forego physical therapy and/or chiropractic care. Instead, I did my best to manage my sciatica by continuing my p/t regimen on my own.

It was only THIS year that I had hoped to get my teeth dealt with, as the pain is getting quite severe. Instead, she went ahead and spent that money on visits to specialists for herself.

So, it is not that I deny her health care - I simply want my turn.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Have you considered getting a mediator and designing an exit plan for when the kids turn 18? Presumably all the other issues could be addressed under the exit plan. If you're with her for the kids, maybe getting a duplex would be a better idea, or apartments in the same building or something like that. It sounds like you've framed the issue of being with your kids as being a couple.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

PBear said:


> It sounds like you're being used, and could do with a good read of the "No More Mr. Nice Guy". Start "manning up", and I don't mean to be insulting about it.
> 
> Also, keep in mind what kind of marriage you're teaching you're kids is "normal". Is this really what you want for them? Because this is what you're putting up there as an example.
> 
> C


I appreciate your candor. Thanks.

I *do* worry about our girls, and whether it is better for them that we try to stick together, or call it quits.

She is a good mother, and she loves the girls, but I worry that she will get so caught up in spiteful revenge that she will harm them with her actions long before she cools off, if we split.

I am actually OK with stuff like the car. I mean, she has to have one.

I struggle with the day-to-day. I am trying to figure a workable strategy where she does NOT have access to all of my money.

I am thinking that she and I will sit down and review our budget. Then, I will give her exactly that much money each month. The problem is that she knows that if she over spends, then I will HAVE to bail her out. After all, I am only really bailing myself out.

But as I stated above, she has basically threatened to stop managing the household if I pull back on her money privileges.

I guess I am just going to have to go down that road.

The thing that is really causing us trouble is that she doesn't seem to care about the budget. This literally happened just a few weeks ago. The end of the month was approaching, and the money was running low. We had enough to get through to the end of the month, but only barely.

We also had a wedding coming up that we were expected to attend, and she wanted to look nice. So, despite the fact that there was no extra money left, she went out and spent HUNDREDS at a salon on her hair, nails, eyebrows, etc.

I checked my email one morning, and I had an overdraft alert waiting for me!

So, what am I to do? When I suggest that perhaps she stops with the eyebrow waxes and expensive salons, she throws a fit, claiming that 'on top of everything else that she has had to give up, now I want her to lose her self esteem!'

WTF?


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Have you considered getting a mediator and designing an exit plan for when the kids turn 18? Presumably all the other issues could be addressed under the exit plan. If you're with her for the kids, maybe getting a duplex would be a better idea, or apartments in the same building or something like that. It sounds like you've framed the issue of being with your kids as being a couple.


I guess I do see it that way.

My parents divorced when I was 5 years old. After that, it seemed like my father became just some guy I knew.

Years later I was at his bedside in the hospital when they 'pulled the plug' - I tried to find a way to cry, but couldn't.

I guess I can't help but assume that a split between she and I would almost certainly mean that I would lose my daughters. It is my single biggest fear. I can hardly express how much I love my little girls.

The real hell of it is that she and I can get along just fine, so long as I don't rock the boat. But seriously, people who don't know us well think that we are a very happy couple. And I have taken pains to keep the discord from the kids as much as I can. It seems like it would be REALLY easy for us to have a nice life, if she would just give a little and try to live within our means.

She often reminds me that she was in the habit of treating herself well, and doesn't want to stop. I don't *want* her to stop either, but our current situation doesn't allow for such excesses. I just want her to CHOOSE, but she refuses to. She expects that she can have her cake and eat it too.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

TheOnceler said:


> I struggle with the day-to-day. I am trying to figure a workable strategy where she does NOT have access to all of my money.


Again you're gonna have to learn how to say the word NO and mean it. What you do is you take the money away - no access whatsoever. Cut the cards up, change banks if you have to and give her CASH either daily or weekly. And when its gone it's gone. Make it reasonable and let the amount be up for discussion but stick with it. She may come to you for unexpected things that come up but you will wait 24 hours before you answer. Check the budget and see if the money is available.

This woman is going to sink you financially unless you put a stop to it.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

I should say 'Thank you!' to each of you for taking an interest and offering advice.

In part, I think I just needed to vent. As a result, I am only partially internalizing what you have all said, and partially just raving on and on.

I beg your indulgence as I go back over these posts and slowly begin to really 'hear' what you have said.

Again, thanks.


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## Tikii (Jun 21, 2012)

If her self esteem costs hundreds at the salon, she needs to pay for it herself. Better yet, she needs to admit her self esteem is a lost cause if it costs her hundreds, and accept that this is it, this is who she is and that's life.

I'd file for custody of the children, cut her off financially, and prepare for a life without her. If she has no income, no home, no stability for the children, she will have a hard time getting custody.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Again you're gonna have to learn how to say the word NO and mean it. What you do is you take the money away - no access whatsoever. Cut the cards up, change banks if you have to and give her CASH either daily or weekly. And when its gone it's gone. Make it reasonable and let the amount be up for discussion but stick with it. She may come to you for unexpected things that come up but you will wait 24 hours before you answer. Check the budget and see if the money is available.
> 
> This woman is going to sink you financially unless you put a stop to it.


Yeah, I know. In my defense, she doesn't often ask. I find out about these questionable expenses after the money is gone.

As a first step, I need to have my paycheck routed to my own personal account. Then i can transfer funds as needed. I also need to have my mortgage deducted from my own personal account.

In truth, I *am* afraid of the fallout that will ensue when she realizes what I am up to.

But, yeah, I need to do this. It's just going to be PAINFUL.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

Tikii said:


> If her self esteem costs hundreds at the salon, she needs to pay for it herself. Better yet, she needs to admit her self esteem is a lost cause if it costs her hundreds, and accept that this is it, this is who she is and that's life.
> 
> I'd file for custody of the children, cut her off financially, and prepare for a life without her. If she has no income, no home, no stability for the children, she will have a hard time getting custody.


I certainly have a lot of anger and resentment, but she is still their mommy - I don't want to break that up.

When she worked, she did well. She wasn't making six figures, but she was far above average.

I am also concerned that she will make a play for my house, even though it is in my name only. The laws being what they are, I suspect that she has a good shot at getting it from me, or forcing me to sell.

But, probably better sooner than later, yeah?

I know, I know...


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## Tikii (Jun 21, 2012)

Are you common law married or just co existing?

If you are just co existing, I don't think she will be able to get it from you. She was just living there, contributing nothing financially etc. I think talking to an attorney would be a great first step, just to find out where your options are, and what you are facing.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

See an attorney. Find out where you stand. If you can't afford an attorney, call around and find a few who do free consultations. Search online for "palimony" issues in your state. 

Arm yourself with knowledge. I think you give her way too much credit. You say she did pretty good for herself when she was single. Only YOU are paying that off right now. She didn't. She never did have her sh*t together, and still doesn't. And if she threatens to leave.... let her. Then she'll just have to work again. You don't leave the house, and you don't give up the girls. Start working on a Plan B... just in case.

Knowledge is power. It would be helpful and empowering for you to know your rights, and responsibilities, and well as how future decisions will affect you and the girls.


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## Jimena (May 28, 2012)

I agree with a lot of what's been said here. You can try and "hide" the discord between you and your partner, but kids perceive relationships deeply from an early age, even if they don't have the skills to explain what it is they sense is going on. You're setting an example that they as girls are entitled. Most children copy their parents or do the opposite. They will likely seek a partner that is either very weak or very domineering.

You're not married, you don't even have a true relationship. This isn't a healthy dynamic. You might as well split. Find a lawyer, know your options. Also, document EVERY financial mismanagement. It will count in your favor no matter how the custody plays out. You may as well have your daughters and hire a nanny.

You said yourself, you want to be the opposite of your father, you want to be present. Don't worry about it. I see in you the commitment to be a part of your daughters lives regardless. Don't let your fear rule your life. Think about what you truly want, and what is really the best for you and your daughters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

So "not rocking the boat" means doing whatever she wants, right? Funny how that works.

I would take care of all the "bills" from your account. Mortgage, car payments, insurance, utilities... Just set up automated payments so it's not a bunch of extra work. The difficulty, as you've identified, is that she can blow whatever money you give her on herself, leaving no money for food or gas for her car or whatever. And then you have to figure out what you're going to do about it. I've got nothing... You can't force someone to behave in a mature manner. But you can stop her from blowing all your saved up money on herself without consulting you.

Yes, you'll upset the apple cart. But sometimes you need to. Personally, I don't know why you're in the relationship. Besides a nanny for your kids, I don't see what benefits you get out of it, and tons of negatives. But maybe that's just me.

C


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Jimena raises a great point. There's been a number of threads in here about women (no offense to the great ladies of TAM) teaching their kids to treat their fathers exactly as they do; as a walking ATM that they have zero respect for. Your wife's comment about the car is a classic example of what they'll learn. Think about it. Then think about how your kids are going to learn to handle their finances.

C


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TheOnceler said:


> I say we are stuck because I am unwilling to take steps to separate. As I noted, we tend to be volatile together. I fully expect World War III if I suggest a 'divorce' (what do you call it when an unmarried couple splits?). I am literally afraid of what would come. I hate the notion of being separated from my girls, and I am fairly concerned that she would try to keep them away from me, merely out of spite.


She does not ‘own’ your daughters. She cannot keep them from you. Did you sign their birth certificates. If you do separate from her see an attorney in advance and get a plan in place. You can have your attorney file a child custody plan… 50/50 legal custody and 50/50 physical custody. 

YOu have a say in your daughter’s lives and a right to joint custody. 


TheOnceler said:


> To facilitate our situation, we set up a joint checking account, and my paycheck goes there. This gives her a common account to draw from for groceries and such. It has been suggested that I close that account and dole out money to her as needed. I have suggested that (in anger), and her response was basically that she would not stand for it. She would leave, or worse yet, she would stay, but stop shopping, cleaning, cooking, etc.


The wise way to run your finances in a manner that reflects your legal situation. You are not married and thus a joint account is not a good idea… it’s not a good idea especially since she seems to feel that you work and she gets the money. She is not working with you no your budget.

So if you do not give her access to all of your income she is going to go on strike? You will still be paying for everything so that’s her point?

Since you do not want to start WWIII.. my suggestion is that you approach this in steps. Draw up a plan.

The first step is open a checking and/or savings account in your name only. Put a % of every paycheck in the your own account(s). Now you will have the money you need to go to the doctor, dentist, etc. You can also pay for your children’s medical bills out of that account. 

If she wants anything over the basics she can get a job. Over time put more and more of your income into your own account. Pay all of the bills directly out of your own account. Take control of your own finances.

If she wants to run up debt to cover her own medical/dental bills, well that’s her problem. And it’s her debt not yours. She can get a job to pay for it.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

You are kidding yourself if you think you are "extremely involved" with your kids. You may be "extremely involved" when you are home, but kids need parenting 24/7. 

Where would you be in your family life if you did not have someone willing and able to do most of the parenting? Would you have had kids?

Stop expecting her to "appreciate" what you do for her, b/c it seems pretty obvious you have NO appreciation for the fact that she bore your children and cares for them. 

You have a family, and you share your income with your family. that's just how it is, IF you want to have a family.

None of that excuses her being irresponsible with the money you need to look after yourself. Set up a separate fund for your health care b/c she cannot be trusted to value your health, as she has shown. 

I hope that you understand that you are in this situation through your own choice. Maybe you are resentful b/c there is no sex or affection. You say she is not your wife or girlfriend-why not pay her a wage, then, for what she does? If she does not want to work for what you are offering, insist on separate households. She will have to find work within a few years, and the alimony/spousal support you will pay until then will come to an end. You will still pay some child support, but if you ask for 50/50 custody, you will have the kids FULL TIME on your 50% of the time, so you don't have to pay child support for those days.

The latter suggestion is going to be a lot more expensive, probably, and unless you offered her a lot as a nanny, she has no incentive to agree. My point, however, is that it would cost tons more, and cut into YOUR career time, if you wanted to have children without a partner willing to share in the parenting. That requires that one or both of you make career sacrifices. Acknowledge it, because it is true. Even the law acknowledges it by requiring the working spouse to share the pension/retirement funds with the non-working spouse in the event of a divorce, and often by requiring spousal support to be paid long enough for the children all to become school age and the non-working spouse to receive an education to make her (occasionally him) employable.

Yes, she is selfish when it comes to what she wants--that doesn't make it "your" money. Deal with the selfishness--don't imitate it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TheOnceler said:


> This is true to an extent.
> 
> However, this is how these things typically go.
> 
> ...


I get the idea that you are not good at comeing up with come-backs that put her in her place and stop this nonsense.

"If you loved the kids, you would buy the car."
I love my kids so I'm saving for their future needs. Your car is safe so you and the kids are safe.

"Your father doesn't love you enough to get you a new car"
To the kids: "When you can drive I'll buy you a nice car."
To her: "Mommy already has a good, safe car."


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

enoughisenough said:


> That your wife is not earning is irrelevant. Four years is not very long and she is caring for your children as her side of your partnership. That shouldn't even come into it.
> 
> It is reasonable that you are upset that your needs always seem to come last. The problem with dental care is that if you leave it then it is likely to cost you more the longer you wait. Would your dentist negotiate a payment plan? I find that many will and if you paid half the cost up front each then paid off the other half that might be a good compromise. Otherwise, if I had to choose, I'd say that the person who has the most urgency should go first and then save over the coming weeks for the next person to go. If one is in pain and the other isn't, for example, the person in pain should go first.
> 
> It sounds like your budget may need a bit of readjusting. Or maybe medical insurance with more dental coverage. If this is not possible then maybe your wife could work a couple of days a week if it fits with childcare needs, both your priorities and the demands of your career on the family.


She is not his wife or his girlfriend.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You have dug yourself a very deep hole and need to get out of it fast before she puts your health at risk and puts you into bankruptcy.



TheOnceler said:


> I pay her credit card debt (that she had BEFORE she got pregnant)


Give her 6 months to get a job and then stop paying her cards if she does not get one.



TheOnceler said:


> I pay her college loan,


She has no income. She can call up the student loan holder and tell them that she has no income. They will put the payments on hold. 

Tell her to do this as you are not paying her student loans any more.


TheOnceler said:


> and I bought her the car of her choosing.


Whose name is this vehicle in? Do you make monthly payments on it?


TheOnceler said:


> She has full access to my paycheck,


You really do need to end this now. You need to take responsibility for paying all the bills.



TheOnceler said:


> and in addition to necessities, she goes out with her girlfriends a couple nights each month, she spends hundreds of dollars on her hair and such, etc.


Cut back her spending on these. This is where you can get the money to pay for your dental and medical needs. Tell her that the problem is that she does not care if about the health of the children’s father.

You are letting her walk all over you. The worst thing is that your daughters are learning that this is the way to treat a man. You need to show your daughters that if a woman mistreats the man in their life, he will leave. They need to know that this is not right. You need to tell them this when she starts her antics.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TheOnceler said:


> I certainly have a lot of anger and resentment, but she is still their mommy - I don't want to break that up.
> 
> When she worked, she did well. She wasn't making six figures, but she was far above average.
> 
> ...


See an attorney about the laws in your state. Does your state have common law marriage?

Even in common law states you have to put yourself forward as married in order for the common law marriage to apply to you. Having a joint bank account can be used as proof of putting your selves forward as married.

Do you have anythin written from her where she says that the two of you are not in a relationship?

You have had the house for less than 4 years right? how much equity is there in the house? In this market probably not much. If so, there is really not much that she can get anyway.

See an attorney before you start making these changes. Find out what your rights are.

Get a custody plan drawn up in which you have at least 50/50 legal and physical custody. Do this even though you are in the same house now. Have a visitation plan in place as well just in case she decided to punish you for taking control of your own finances.

Get your legal ducks in a row first... before you start any action with her.

You can open your own bank account now... but start working on your legal custody and finacial issues as well.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

TheOnceler said:


> I guess I do see it that way.
> 
> My parents divorced when I was 5 years old. After that, it seemed like my father became just some guy I knew.
> 
> ...


Your kids are going to grow up and then realize the truth and wonder why they couldn't ever have a parent plus a step-parent that were in love, and a mother who was capable of supporting herself instead of becoming a domestic wh*re. I mean, kids have grown up in worse environments it used to be you got pregnant you got married, we all survived our parents silly predicaments based on those rules...but really, I'd go for broke and take my chances on having the kids grow up with version of reality that is closer to the truth. That's me. I realize other people have other psychological hurdles and that truth is something that falls by the wayside, where the intended ends justify the means. I am by far and beyond a PROCESS person. If the process is true, the results will be okay.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Why did the sex stop? Is it possible that she is seeing someone while working you to death? I find your posts very frustrating. You are being taken advantage of terribly.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

sisters359 said:


> You are kidding yourself if you think you are "extremely involved" with your kids. You may be "extremely involved" when you are home, but kids need parenting 24/7.
> 
> Where would you be in your family life if you did not have someone willing and able to do most of the parenting? Would you have had kids?
> 
> ...



Ignore this post.


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## bluelaser (May 26, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> Ignore this post.


 i agree. it goes completely overboard.


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

Tikii said:


> If her self esteem costs hundreds at the salon, she needs to pay for it herself. Better yet, she needs to admit her self esteem is a lost cause if it costs her hundreds, and accept that this is it, this is who she is and that's life.
> 
> I'd file for custody of the children, cut her off financially, and prepare for a life without her. If she has no income, no home, no stability for the children, she will have a hard time getting custody.


Now that's just evil. Why would anyone suggest taking either parent away from a child. You think that's the right thing to do, really? Regardless of their mother's admittedly horendous behavior, you don't punish the kids that way. The most anyone should ask for, in the. G absence of abuse or neglect, is 50/50. It just burns me that certain people on here think this type of advice is justified. That is
just spiteful BS. Sure he's going to end up paying child support. But it's disgusting to suggest mitigating that by taking away her parental rights when she is and has been their primary caretaker. She has no income because that was their arrangement. If he wants a new one he renegotiates, not takes away her kids. Fortunately I think he loves his kids too much to take them from their mother out of spite and resentment. How cruel that would be for them. Stop being so cavalier with this type of advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

sisters359 said:


> You are kidding yourself if you think you are "extremely involved" with your kids. You may be "extremely involved" when you are home, but kids need parenting 24/7.
> 
> Where would you be in your family life if you did not have someone willing and able to do most of the parenting? Would you have had kids?
> 
> ...


I *am* extremely involved with my kids. That is not tantamount to saying that I provide the majority of their 24/7 care. It means that I am not treating my role as their father as simply one of financial provider.

Where would I be? I'd be where millions of other single and divorced parents are. I'd be putting in more effort, running to and from daycare, etc. The same place she would be without me.

It is hard to have appreciation for the fact that she bore my children given how we came to be pregnant in the first place. Virtually everyone with whom I have confided in had the same response - they assumed that she intentionally trapped me by getting pregnant. I accept that I should never engage in sex if I am unwilling to deal with the consequences. Even so, when a long time partner suddenly stops taking the pill after 20 continuous years on the pill, and then fails to mention it to you when you are about to have sex (which she initiated), well...

The girls are BOTH of our children, and we BOTH care for them. I don't get any pats on the back from her when she takes off for an evening or a day or a weekend, and I take primary responsibility for their care. Why should the reverse be true? Does she not have her own interest in being a good mother to her children?

Now, on the other hand, I do see value in the fact that she stays home with them and cares for them and as a result has no job outside of the home. We split the weekends pretty evenly, and evenings as well. So, she winds up caring for the kids on her own about 9 hours per day, or 45 hours per week. An average Nanny salary might be, what, $15/hr? So, that extrapolates to $35,000/yr. I pay for her car, housing, food, clothes, pre-existing debt, health insurance, health care, etc. etc. All told, I easily match this hypothetical nanny salary.

That is precisely how I see it - as a job. When I boughy my house, I made it clear to her - we were not a couple, and the house was not ours. I was buying a house. If she wanted to continue to be a stay at home mom, then I was willing to provide a home, car, food, etc AND pay her existing debts for her each month. On the other hand, if she wanted to split, get a place of her own again, go back to work, etc. she was free to do that too. I would gladly cover my share of all of the expenses related to the kids. She chose the stay-at-home route.

It's a bit jarring to be labeled as selfish - I have always been told that I am unselfish, to a fault. Maybe I am swinging too far in the other direction now, as I try to NOT be a door mat for her?


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I get the idea that you are not good at comeing up with come-backs that put her in her place and stop this nonsense.
> 
> "If you loved the kids, you would buy the car."
> I love my kids so I'm saving for their future needs. Your car is safe so you and the kids are safe.
> ...


Well, this was sort of a contrived hypothetical. Still, it is true. I tend to allow myself to get so angry that I am unable to be so nimble of thought. Also, my primary concern is usually to avoid a screaming match in front of the kids.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> You have dug yourself a very deep hole and need to get out of it fast before she puts your health at risk and puts you into bankruptcy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All of our bills are automatically deducted from the joint account, but we both have access to it.

I do have my own personal account that she does NOT have access to.

We run all of our household spending out of the joint account, mostly for convenience. That way, if she needs gas, or buys groceries, or orders diapers online - the money is just there. We don't need to constantly be transferring funds around.

Yeah, in mulling it over last night, I think I was letting my emotions get the better of me. I don't need to pull the trigger, per se. I informed her that she was right, and we should BOTH get the health and dental care that we need. However, because our budget is tight this year, we will subsequently have to cut back in other areas: beauty salons, evenings out, etc.

I anticipate a fair amount of resistance to that notion, but we'll see.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

TheOnceler said:


> The girls are BOTH of our children, and we BOTH care for them. I don't get any pats on the back from her when she takes off for an evening or a day or a weekend, and I take primary responsibility for their care. Why should the reverse be true? Does she not have her own interest in being a good mother to her children?
> 
> Now, on the other hand, I do see value in the fact that she stays home with them and cares for them and as a result has no job outside of the home. We split the weekends pretty evenly, and evenings as well. So, she winds up caring for the kids on her own about 9 hours per day, or 45 hours per week. An average Nanny salary might be, what, $15/hr? So, that extrapolates to $35,000/yr. I pay for her car, housing, food, clothes, pre-existing debt, health insurance, health care, etc. etc. All told, I easily match this hypothetical nanny salary.


$35,000 a year. Not bad. But what you aren't factoring in here is the fact that these are HER children as well, and, under normal circumstances, the cost of child care is split between BOTH parents. Which, when you think about it, means that you are only liable for HALF of that cost and not the full amount. So where is her half?


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> Why did the sex stop? Is it possible that she is seeing someone while working you to death? I find your posts very frustrating. You are being taken advantage of terribly.


Ha! Sorry to frustrate you!

I guess it is possible that she is seeing somebody else. I don't care, really, except that if she is, it might provide some leverage.

Why did the sex stop? Well, I *am* a bit old fashioned. I had always assumed that she was too. We had a long term, on again off again relationship. We would break up at times for short periods, like days or weeks, but there were instances where we were broken up for months at a time.

When we would reconcile, I would always ask if there had been anyone else. She would ask the same of me. And we both had the same answer, no (Well, once, for me, there had been another woman, but she knew about that. She and I had broken up and been apart for nearly a year, and I had developed a relationship with another woman).

Later, I found that she had MANY other sex partners during those times apart, and in more than one case, when we were NOT apart.

Worse yet (from my perspective), she was terribly cavalier about the sex. She would have sex with guys at work, friends, and casual acquaintances. She would exchange emails with guys and arrange to meet up after work for sex. That sort of thing

On top of that, on numerous occasions, she would combine me and these other guys in social situations. She would present them as friends or co-workers. Everyone knew that they were all having sex together, except for me.

So, after learning all of this, and discovering her ability to treat sex so casually, well... I now find it virtually impossible to be comfortable in my old role. Conversely, she is unwilling to have that same sort of casual sex with me that she had so easily with so many others.

So, the result is, no sex.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> $35,000 a year. Not bad. But what you aren't factoring in here is the fact that these are HER children as well, and, under normal circumstances, the cost of child care is split between BOTH parents. Which, when you think about it, means that you are only liable for HALF of that cost and not the full amount. So where is her half?


Yeah, I've done the math. I would have less financial liability if we were apart, although I would see my kids less.

She, on the other hand, would be hard pressed to provide for herself as well as I do for her.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

OK. I hope this doesn't violate the rules of the forums.

I suggested to her that we should both get the care we need (in this case, dental work). I pointed out that we have limited resources just now, so we will have to cut back in other areas. She is in the habit of going to a relatively expensive salon for her hair, and she gets her eyebrows waxes fairly regularly.

I suggested that, in order to carve out money for her dental work, she might need to consider dropping the eyebrow waxes and finding a cheaper hair cut solution. Here is an excerpt from her response:

"As far as brow waxes, yes, a lot of people do pluck as opposed to wax. But I have a ton of eye brow hair that grows even down to my eye lid. So it is more painful and not as effective to try to pluck. Not everyone has the same hair growth patterns as me. Some people have barely any eye brows. So I am for sure open to cutting back on my waxes, but I would like to not have to cut them our completely. 

Same with haircuts. I like the style I have...it makes me feel good and works well for me to not have to put much time into it daily. But I can try to find a new style so I don't have to get as many cuts. But I would be hesitant to go to Super Cuts for many reasons."




Is this a reasonable response?

I find it crazy, but maybe that is just me.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

TheOnceler said:


> OK. I hope this doesn't violate the rules of the forums.
> 
> I suggested to her that we should both get the care we need (in this case, dental work). I pointed out that we have limited resources just now, so we will have to cut back in other areas. She is in the habit of going to a relatively expensive salon for her hair, and she gets her eyebrows waxes fairly regularly.
> 
> ...


:scratchhead:

It appears that she can certainly find ways to SPEND the money, but did it ever occur to her that maybe should could find ways to bring additional monies in to help fund these cosmetic activities? Maybe that should be the focus, instead of justifying all her "needs" to feel better about herself.

It seems to me that she isn't taking the budget problem as seriously as you are.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> It appears that she can certainly find ways to SPEND the money, but did it ever occur to her that maybe should could find ways to bring additional monies in to help fund these cosmetic activities? Maybe that should be the focus, instead of justifying all her "needs" to feel better about herself.
> 
> It seems to me that she isn't taking the budget problem as seriously as you are.


Well, she *is* looking into a venture that might allow her to bring in some money. We'll see. I am sure that she has skills and ability, but I am not sure that it will be such a windfall. I imagine that much of her income will be offset by increased child care costs. But we shall see.

For my part, I don't feel we need more money. I feel we just need to spend less.

Also, for me, the primary reason for us to stay together is so that our girls are raised by their mom, and not by a nanny or some daycare employees (no offense!). If she intends to ship the kids off to daycare all day so that she can work, I'd just assume that she take that one step further and also move out on her own.

However, I wonder at her willingness to do the hard work? It will sound cliche, but it already seems that she cannot keep up with just managing the household.

Recently she went away on a 'girls weekend' with her extended family. I got to have the girls and the house all to myself. It was GLORIOUS. I got to sleep late (6:30 or 7:00 AM), have all day with the girls, and have the house to myself at night.

Meanwhile, I managed to do all the household stuff too. I ran the garbage to the dump, mowed the lawn, washed and folded 3 or 4 loads of laundry, and kept the house tidy. She even remarked in surprise to her step mother that, when she came home Sunday evening, there was not even a dish in the sink.

I cannot say the same of her most weekdays. Given that, I wonder how she will juggle the additional burden of starting a company?

Time will tell...


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

How much money does she spend on vanity per month in relation to your income? What about clothes?

I get why she doesn't want to go to SuperCuts because I don't either but there are other options. I gave up my pricey hair cuts when I quit to be a homemaker. I grew my hair out long so I didn't have to get it cut often. I color it myself and I found someone cheaper to cut it. I also don't buy near as many clothes as I used to. Staying home comes with sacrifices for most of us not married to wealthy men.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

When you can't afford health and dental care, waxing and expensive haircuts are a luxury. She is not being reasonable.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bellavista (May 29, 2012)

I waould sggest a change in the way the finances are handles. Have your pay go into a separate account, set up an automatic transfer of funds to her account for housekeeping & spending. 
Work out what a reasonable family would need for groceries, clothing & vanity & that is what she gets. No more.If you feel that she would spend the grocery money on vanity items, then go together for the groceries & you pay.
If you have someone who is a spender, not a saver, they will spend until you are so far in the abyss you cannot get out. The only way to prevent this is to limit their access to funds.It is like a drug addict or a gambler, a spender is addicted to spending.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TheOnceler said:


> OK. I hope this doesn't violate the rules of the forums.
> 
> I suggested to her that we should both get the care we need (in this case, dental work). I pointed out that we have limited resources just now, so we will have to cut back in other areas. She is in the habit of going to a relatively expensive salon for her hair, and she gets her eyebrows waxes fairly regularly.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. It's a crazy response. She is financially irresponsible. Further, she does not care about your health. There is no way I spend the way she does when anyone in the household had a health issue we did not have the money to take care of. 

She says that she has to be healthy for the children? Well you do as well.

You have had plenty of good, solid financial advice on here so I will not repeat it.

My advice is to move her out. IMHO, your children are old enough to go to day care now. They are better off not spending too much time with a mother who does not care for the wellbeing of their father.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

An Au Pair would be less expensive.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

I guess it's not fair to say that she does not care about my well being. I think, to some extent, we both enabled the situation.

(1) I am prone to neglecting myself and putting the needs of others first.

(2) She is prone to putting her own needs first.


I'll admit that both of these are problematic qualities. So, when I don't take steps to meet my own needs, and she see's resources available to meet her needs, it is natural for her to take what she needs.

She, unlike me, is not prone to first considering what those around her might need. And there is some logic to that - it is consistent. If I was like her in this regard, then I would have already had my needs met, and the money would not have been available for her to spend.

So, really, the issue is mine.

She will need some significant dental repair. This will be costly, and in addition to the work that I need done, will strain my finances for the short term.

Last year, we spent a commensurate amount on procedures for her. They were beneficial, but not necessary. If I were to weigh one against the other, it is clear that the dental work that each of us needs is more important.

So, the *right* thing to have done would have been to spend lasts years budget on my dental needs, instead of her elective procedures (not cosmetic, per se, but not necessary either).

Had I done so, she would now be in the position of choosing her own dental work OR the other procedures. I can only presume that she would prioritize the dental work.

My point is that, had I made my own health a priority on par with her health, I would not be in this mess. Well, there are other considerations as well, but at least I can see where I made a mistake.

Of course, had I insisted on fewer extravagances for her along the way, I'd be in a better financial position now as well. That is the other major component of the change that I need to effect.

I do like this approach:

I will have my paycheck deposited (direct deposit) into my own personal account. My mortgage and other payments will be transferred from the joint account to my personal account. After we discuss the budget and settle on some numbers (to cover household expenses, her car, and her debt payments), I will arrange to transfer that sum to the joint account. That will give her the freedom to manage the household items as they arise - he can shop for groceries without first having to get cash from me, she can stop to get gas in her car as needed, etc.

This should allow her the flexibility to manage her time as she see's fit, but put some restrictions on how she spends the money.

Does this seem reasonable? Because I can already tell you that she is going to balk at this idea. I'd love some objective views on this.

Thanks!


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

Angel5112 said:


> I think if you give her any access to your money that she will spend it on the things she knows you won't approve of first and then tell you she needs money to pay for essential things. This is just my opinion based off of your description of her and your situation.


Yeah, that is of course a concern.

My idea is a first step. If that pattern continues, then I have to restrict her access further.

But to enact my first step, I'll need to weather the ensuing storm. She will surely pitch a fit when I make these changes, and of course accuse me of being unfair, or selfish, or something. I am trying to prepare myself mentally by reinforcing the notion that what I am proposing is fair and reasonable.


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## TheOnceler (Jul 3, 2012)

Angel5112 said:


> Also, we aren't saying she doesn't care about your well being. I am saying that a good mother who truly cares about the well being of her children before her own does not lie to her children in order to guilt you into doing something, threaten to stop cooking for them, or threaten to stop cleaning the space they inhabit to get her way. She is putting her needs not just above yours, but above your children. What kind of a parent attempts to put their children in the middle of a fight? When my H and I fight, we go to great lengths to ensure that our children don't see or hear it. It is terrible to purposefully do that to them. You two are how they learn about adult relationships. Obviously she could care less what she teaches them. Is that really what you want to teach them?
> 
> Just food for thought.


Well, she is not that overt, but I don't think it matters. When her reaction to unwelcome ideas from me is to launch us into a fight with unreasonable or even nonsensical statements and anger, that alone is bad for the kids.

I hear you.

Not too long ago we had gotten into an argument. I had been talking about attending a family reunion, and had been discussing it with her for weeks in advance. When I finally indicated that I'd like to go, she informed me that she didn't want to go.

So, I said, OK - the kids and I will go, and you can have a day to yourself at home.

Then she started in on all the reasons why it did not make sense for me to go and to bring the kids - logistical issues, I'll be chasing the kids and won't enjoy myself, etc.

THEN she started in on how I really had no business taking time away when there were projects that I needed to attend to around the house.

It went on and on (via email and text).

When I got home from work, I was still livid, but I put it aside and tried to focus on spending some time with the kids before they went to bed. When it became evident that I was still feeling angry, she asked, "Are you still angry?" I didn't respond, as I was in another room, so had the excuse of having not heard. When I emerged, she asked again, and I said, "Yes, can we discuss it later?" She responded by laughing at me and telling me (in front of the kids) that I really needed to grow up and learn to get over it.



This is the sort of stuff that she is willing to do, but that I want to shield the kids from.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TheOnceler said:


> I guess it's not fair to say that she does not care about my well being. I think, to some extent, we both enabled the situation.
> 
> (1) I am prone to neglecting myself and putting the needs of others first.
> 
> ...


It's very reasonable. But I see one flaw.... having a joint account with her. If you have a joint account she can overdraft it. She has already done this in the past. Then you will have to put more money into the account so that your credit/bank rating is not damaged.

Have her open an account in her own name in the same bank that you use. Then you can do an inter-bank funds transfer to her account each pay day.

Or give her cash each pay day and she can either put it in an account of her own or she can just use cash.

She will balk at anything that takes away her access to as much money as possible. Perhaps you can let her know that this is a last chance to make this arrangement work for all of you.


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