# Things went rather downhill rather quickly after I talked to you last night...



## samyeagar

Well, my daughters bachelorette weekend away is over. My wife and I had a few texts over the course of the weekend, and she called me Saturday night from the club they were all at and we talked for a few minutes. Things seemed to be going alright, or as well as they can be when trying to herd cats.

There were 11 of them, nine were either married or in committed relationships, five over 35. They all met at my wife's sisters house, and then carpooled the four hours drive from there. A bit after their checkout time, and time they were starting to head home, I got the following text from my wife

"Is it OK if I call you after I leave my sisters? Things went rather downhill rather quickly after I talked to you last night, & I don't want to wait till I get home to talk to you"

So we talked.

Group IQ drop had kicked in. Poor choices were made. Lines were crossed.

Pretty much all of the married or committed ones ventured firmly into that area between inappropriate, and disrespectful, to downright divorce worthy. Some went further than others, and some all the way.

The Friday night stripper wasn't the issue. It was the Saturday swim up bar clubs starting before noon, drinking until they closed with hundreds of people in the skimpiest swim attire they could manage.

My wife had stopped drinking after the lunch time club because she decided to be a designated driver to help cut down on the extremely expensive Uber costs. She was able to take five in her car, leaving six that still needed to take an Uber, and just for perspective, a peak hour Uber that seats six to take them the 20 miles back to the condo...$285. But I digress.

As far as my wife's contribution to the list of crossed lines, the bride to be convinced her to let some dude with amazing ad and pecks take a body shot out of my wife's navel, and when our daughter tried to get her to do it again with another guy at the night time club, my wife declined and started showing people pictures of my body, that she had better at home, and not only that, but if she asked me to have a bottle of chilled wine and a bubble bath ready for her when she got home, she had no doubt that I would. And she wasn't wanting to screw that up. My visceral reaction to things like that is not necessarily one of anger, rather it is to shut down sexually, which can be just as bad for the relationship.

The part about my body, that was good, but damn, I had a pretty harsh internal reflex reaction to the whole bubble bath and wine part, and in less than a second, it all just flashed that I cook, clean, laundry, sew, bake, and I know it wasn't her intent, but the term man servant came to mind. Again, I digress.

On the plus side, at least my wife left her wedding ring on, unlike some of the other women. Of course the rationalization is saving $50 on free drinks, but those kinds of things, and that mindset does not happen in a vacuum. It is one of actively seeking opposite sex attention from people other than one's partner. Doing it to save $50 my ass when you just dropped almost $300 for the ride to get there.

Now, there was not any actual skin to skin below the waist contact, but there are quite a few highly sexual things that can be done fully clothed on the dance floor, some that end up with the guy being relieved, and some of the girls were rather proud of themselves for being able to accomplish just that.

And of course the truth finally and fully came out of at least this group when my wife and the mother of the groom were trying to round them all up on this girls weekend bachelorette party...No, they should not go back to the guys they met's condo to keep drinking and partying. They could go back to their own and do that. But that's not where the boys are...

Some things were Snapchatted for all to see, but there some things that weren't. Those were the things my wife advised her daughter to tell her fiance, because he will no doubt hear about them in the next few weeks with all of these people being involved in the wedding, and many of them honestly believing that there was nothing inappropriate with what they were doing.

I think that was what upset my wife the most was really seeing some of these people for exactly who they are when left to make their own choices, and that so many lines were so easily and quickly crossed, and how this sort of chain of events happens. She'd never really seen it before, but I guess being with me for almost a decade, and being sober watching it brings a whole new perspective.


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## Yeswecan

Never understood these parties. Never will. I do recall my XBIL at his party. Fondling a strippers breast in the basement of his parents home as my sister was sitting upstairs knowing full well what was going on. It was disrespectful. They are no longer married. The fondling of other women's breast continued long after the vows were made.


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## rugswept

these stupid bachelorette parties often involved very loose behavior. just be grateful that it didn't go to the level of a male stripper walking around sampling the willing mouths of "the girls". that has ended more than one planned wedding in the past. 

these disrespectful women go off the deep end. i just hope if the weddings get cancelled that they're not surprised. why they drop all wedding vows and go off into mass orgy kind of behavior is beyond me. i'll never understand it. 
hold them all accountable. they really suck. 

and yes, i do all the wash, cleaning, cooking, dishes, folding clothes, everything. call me King ****. 

i'm starting to think a guy i knew was right,very long ago, when he said they're all w****s. that very well might be true. 
if you want to score real easy on some really dumb broads, go find a bachelorette party.


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## niceguy47460

If I was you I would be watching her phone for text messages about that weekend . All the women will probably be talking about what went on that weekend . You might find out your wife did more than what she is telling you .


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## 3Xnocharm

I would put my money on Sam's wife having given him full disclosure of her activities. The others though... ugh...

Sam, what about your daughter's behavior? How did the bride to be do with all of this?


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## Tilted 1

A chaperone, was needed WTH, l would not let my wife be a prevy to this. If she felt the need to be, would be just letting me know that at her age she has not learned crap and desires to be and do something to make her feel young.

Make no mistake l am not a a$$ just, don't want the wife to be the honor police. If grown woman doesn't know her place in her own relationship. She doesn't need mom to tell her what not to do. Or for that fact any other committed woman.

I am not casting dispersions at you Sam it's just boggles, the mind to what end was your wife going. I am just asking in regards to her picture she took, and in her defense she showed a picture of you in return to others. 

Why? Sam do you think your wife did this in the first place. Someone school me. Why this in the norm now, or is the way of the new relationships are. 

Thanks in advance.


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## samyeagar

I do plan on poking around my wife's Facebook a bit over the next few weeks just to see what pops up, but I do think she told me everything that happened.

My daughter is the bride to be. It appears the worst behaviour was from my married sister in law, followed by my daughter and a couple of married bridesmaids.

I didn't pry for gory details, but my wife put it in perspective pretty well by saying that as well as I know her, and her own personal feelings on things like mixed company interactions while in committed relationships, that if I had been doing some of the same things as my sister in law and daughter and some of the other women in relationships, that my wife would have been extremely angry, and would have a hard time staying in the relationship. For additional perspective, by wife has very relaxed boundaries when it comes to this sort of thing.


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## Marc878

Meh, wayward behavior specifically states forgiveness is easier to get than permission.

And they are always *guaranteed* a mulligan or second chance.

Does your wife and daughter normally hang out with these types?


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## Taxman

I really really hate GNO's and bachelorette parties. I have DJ'ed some evenings, and I have seen groups go wild. My SIL tried conning my wife into a GNO at a cougar bar. When confronted, she admitted that she wanted to get my wife laid, so that I would disappear. (She took a massive amount of resentment, when I outed her as a thief and an abuser. My wife's family forgives, I try, but there are certain transgressions (she took from a disabled relative). The bachelorette story involves me peripherally. My son and I went to Vegas for his 21st birthday. Did all the male stuff. Was showing him my prowess at blackjack, when a bachelorette party passed our table. He noticed a purse that had fallen on the floor. He tells me he is going to return the purse. He comes back to me about five minutes later. The bachelorette party wanted to buy him a drink for being so gallant. I am already three sheets to the wind, and decide to return to our room to pass out. I noticed that I returned to the room at about 11. Drunken sleeps are usually not that long and at about 3 I awakened to find he had not returned. I awoke again at 8. He still was not back. At 9 he comes thru the door and collapses. So, asking not as a dad, who'd you end up with? He replies, I am a total bastard, I slept with the bride. That is why I am not for GNO's bachelorettes, girls only vacations etc. etc. etc. They look good on paper. Not in practice.


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## samyeagar

Tilted 1 said:


> A chaperone, was needed WTH, l would not let my wife be a prevy to this. If she felt the need to be, would be just letting me know that at her age she has not learned crap and desires to be and do something to make her feel young.
> 
> Make no mistake l am not a a$$ just, don't want the wife to be the honor police. If grown woman doesn't know her place in her own relationship. She doesn't need mom to tell her what not to do. Or for that fact any other committed woman.
> 
> I am not casting dispersions at you Sam it's just boggles, the mind to what end was your wife going. I am just asking in regards to her picture she took, and in her defense she showed a picture of you in return to others.
> 
> Why? Sam do you think your wife did this in the first place. Someone school me. Why this in the norm now, or is the way of the new relationships are.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Oh, no. My wife didn't take any pictures, and she was showing pictures of my half naked body as a way to shut down those suggesting she should partake further in the activities.


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## samyeagar

Marc878 said:


> Meh, wayward behavior specifically states forgiveness is easier to get than permission.
> 
> And they are always *guaranteed* a mulligan or second chance.
> 
> Does your wife and daughter normally hang out with these types?


My wife and her circle of friends do enjoy discussing and admiring the male form, which I do generally find distasteful, but they have generally solid boundaries when it comes to actual interactions.

My daughter on the other hand is a 24 year old women, and her friends are the same age, and this type of behaviour is likely the norm because of the complete obliviousness to anything being wrong in the moment. Only questioned after the fact when faced with possible consequences.


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## syhoybenden

How much money have you got sunk into that wedding so far?

You might want to consider stalling on committing any more for the time being.


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## syhoybenden

Oh, and some 24 year olds still act like children.


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## samyeagar

syhoybenden said:


> How much money have you got sunk into that wedding so far?
> 
> You might want to consider stalling on committing any more for the time being.


We've only sunk a couple thousand in. The groom is from a very well off family, and have sunk probably 30k. And that is where things are going to get interesting. My daughter made it very clear before hand to everyone that she was not going to curb or tailor her behaviour to suit anyone coming on the trip. That she was going to do what she was going to do by god. Well, she and the mother of the groom got into it. Not sure of everything that was said between them, but it was clear there were some issues.

That said, it is kind of funny here that as far as the money goes, the one thing that is bugging me most right now about that is that during that final night, my daughter lost her glasses, and my wife is feeling partly responsible considering she was supposed to be the one to keep the lid on things and keep things like that from happening. So my wife is wanting to buy the grown ass woman child a new pair, or at least partially. I am of the mind that no, my wife wasn't responsible, she did the best she could, and this woman who is two weeks from getting married should be able to take responsibility for her own poor behaviour.


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## BioFury

Are you going to tell these women's partners what happened? If you would want to be told in their partners shoes, then I would encourage you to do so. Golden rule.


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## sokillme

samyeagar said:


> Well, my daughters bachelorette weekend away is over. My wife and I had a few texts over the course of the weekend, and she called me Saturday night from the club they were all at and we talked for a few minutes. Things seemed to be going alright, or as well as they can be when trying to herd cats.
> 
> There were 11 of them, nine were either married or in committed relationships, five over 35. They all met at my wife's sisters house, and then carpooled the four hours drive from there. A bit after their checkout time, and time they were starting to head home, I got the following text from my wife
> 
> "Is it OK if I call you after I leave my sisters? Things went rather downhill rather quickly after I talked to you last night, & I don't want to wait till I get home to talk to you"
> 
> So we talked.
> 
> Group IQ drop had kicked in. Poor choices were made. Lines were crossed.
> 
> Pretty much all of the married or committed ones ventured firmly into that area between inappropriate, and disrespectful, to downright divorce worthy. Some went further than others, and some all the way.
> 
> The Friday night stripper wasn't the issue. It was the Saturday swim up bar clubs starting before noon, drinking until they closed with hundreds of people in the skimpiest swim attire they could manage.
> 
> My wife had stopped drinking after the lunch time club because she decided to be a designated driver to help cut down on the extremely expensive Uber costs. She was able to take five in her car, leaving six that still needed to take an Uber, and just for perspective, a peak hour Uber that seats six to take them the 20 miles back to the condo...$285. But I digress.
> 
> As far as my wife's contribution to the list of crossed lines, the bride to be convinced her to let some dude with amazing ad and pecks take a body shot out of my wife's navel, and when our daughter tried to get her to do it again with another guy at the night time club, my wife declined and started showing people pictures of my body, that she had better at home, and not only that, but if she asked me to have a bottle of chilled wine and a bubble bath ready for her when she got home, she had no doubt that I would. And she wasn't wanting to screw that up. My visceral reaction to things like that is not necessarily one of anger, rather it is to shut down sexually, which can be just as bad for the relationship.
> 
> The part about my body, that was good, but damn, I had a pretty harsh internal reflex reaction to the whole bubble bath and wine part, and in less than a second, it all just flashed that I cook, clean, laundry, sew, bake, and I know it wasn't her intent, but the term man servant came to mind. Again, I digress.
> 
> On the plus side, at least my wife left her wedding ring on, unlike some of the other women. Of course the rationalization is saving $50 on free drinks, but those kinds of things, and that mindset does not happen in a vacuum. It is one of actively seeking opposite sex attention from people other than one's partner. Doing it to save $50 my ass when you just dropped almost $300 for the ride to get there.
> 
> Now, there was not any actual skin to skin below the waist contact, but there are quite a few highly sexual things that can be done fully clothed on the dance floor, some that end up with the guy being relieved, and some of the girls were rather proud of themselves for being able to accomplish just that.
> 
> And of course the truth finally and fully came out of at least this group when my wife and the mother of the groom were trying to round them all up on this girls weekend bachelorette party...No, they should not go back to the guys they met's condo to keep drinking and partying. They could go back to their own and do that. But that's not where the boys are...
> 
> Some things were Snapchatted for all to see, but there some things that weren't. Those were the things my wife advised her daughter to tell her fiance, because he will no doubt hear about them in the next few weeks with all of these people being involved in the wedding, and many of them honestly believing that there was nothing inappropriate with what they were doing.
> 
> I think that was what upset my wife the most was really seeing some of these people for exactly who they are when left to make their own choices, and that so many lines were so easily and quickly crossed, and how this sort of chain of events happens. She'd never really seen it before, but I guess being with me for almost a decade, and being sober watching it brings a whole new perspective.


I think I would be most upset about the disloyalty from my own daughter.


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## Blondilocks

That's some daughter your wife raised.


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## samyeagar

BioFury said:


> Are you going to tell these women's partners what happened? If you would want to be told in their partners shoes, then I would encourage you to do so. Golden rule.


For now, I am just going to wait and see how things play out. The only ones I actually know the partners of is my sister in law and my daughter. Knowing some of the group as I do, they will do a right and proper job of telling all on their own. And not in a remorseful way. And then they will shocked, shocked I tell ya, when there are negative consequences.


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## Tilted 1

Blondilocks said:


> That's some daughter your wife raised.



I am in agreement with you blondi, it's still about choices being made. Some as poor as possible.


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## Marc878

If I was the fiancé I'd run not walk the other way. I'm sure his parents would be glad to sacrifice the $'s already spent. JMO


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## bandit.45

What I hate is the *****footing around what went on. Why doesn't your wife tell you what your daughter did exactly?


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## Tilted 1

samyeagar said:


> syhoybenden said:
> 
> 
> 
> How much money have you got sunk into that wedding so far?
> 
> You might want to consider stalling on committing any more for the time being.
> 
> 
> 
> We've only sunk a couple thousand in. The groom is from a very well off family, and have sunk probably 30k. And that is where things are going to get interesting. My daughter made it very clear before hand to everyone that she was not going to curb or tailor her behaviour to suit anyone coming on the trip. That she was going to do what she was going to do by god. Well, she and the mother of the groom got into it. Not sure of everything that was said between them, but it was clear there were some issues.
> 
> That said, it is kind of funny here that as far as the money goes, the one thing that is bugging me most right now about that is that during that final night, my daughter lost her glasses, and my wife is feeling partly responsible considering she was supposed to be the one to keep the lid on things and keep things like that from happening. So my wife is wanting to buy the grown ass woman child a new pair, or at least partially. I am of the mind that no, my wife wasn't responsible, she did the best she could, and this woman who is two weeks from getting married should be able to take responsibility for her own poor behaviour.
Click to expand...


It may be over already, for you and yours just haven't got the latest news. The Sil will throw others under the bus to save her own. Just saying.


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## bandit.45

samy are you footing the bill for this wedding?


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## Blondilocks

So, why was your wife in such a hurry to fill you in? Something smells fishy.


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## Blondilocks

bandit.45 said:


> samy are you footing the bill for this wedding?


See post #14.


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## bandit.45

Blondilocks said:


> See post #14.


Thanks. I passed over it. 

Sheez... what a mess. This bride is something else.


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## Marduk

sokillme said:


> I think I would be must upset about the disloyalty from my own daughter.



That’s what’s actually bothering me the most in all this.


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## samyeagar

Marc878 said:


> If I was the fiancé I'd run not walk the other way. I'm sure his parents would be glad to sacrifice the $'s already spent. JMO


That's just it. If I was the groom to be, I would end things with this, in large part because I could not be partners with someone who makes such poor choices, and engages in such reckless behaviour. From everything my wife could tell, no clothing was removed, no direct genital to genital contact, just heavy grinding that in some cases ended with the guy filling his swimsuit, and it's not clear if my daughter took any of the guys that far, so... this is one of those things with the muddy grey in between area where there are vastly different opinions and boundaries on what actually constitutes cheating sever enough to end the relationship. For me, this was all clearly beyond what I personally tolerate, but I acknowledge that others have different thresholds.


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## samyeagar

Blondilocks said:


> So, why was your wife in such a hurry to fill you in? Something smells fishy.


There may be something fishy, and if it is, I'm a pretty observant and patient guy, I'll pick up on it.

I think my wife was very shocked, angry, upset and disgusted by what went on, particularly with my sister in law and daughter. She had never been around them in this sort of environment before, and my wife had never been in this environment before for that matter, and had a very rude awakening to the behaviour, and who these two women she thought very highly of could be. They knocked her rose coloured glasses right off of her face.


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## wilson

samyeagar said:


> That's just it. If I was the groom to be, I would end things with this, in large part because I could not be partners with someone who makes such poor choices, and engages in such reckless behaviour.


I can totally understand that a fully-mature adult would not be okay with this. But 20-year-olds.... I don't know. Who knows what the future groom was doing on his bachelor party. I wouldn't at all be surprised if he engaged in similar debauchery. I'm not so sure that this behavior spells doom for their future marriage. Obviously it's dangerous behavior, but I'm not convinced that it will continue. I'm sure many happy, long-term marriages had similar pre-wedding parties. I'm not saying it's a good way to start, but it's not necessarily a sign that the marriage won't work out.


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## sokillme

samyeagar said:


> That's just it. If I was the groom to be, I would end things with this, in large part because I could not be partners with someone who makes such poor choices, and engages in such reckless behaviour. From everything my wife could tell, no clothing was removed, no direct genital to genital contact, just heavy grinding that in some cases ended with the guy filling his swimsuit, and it's not clear if my daughter took any of the guys that far, so... this is one of those things with the muddy grey in between area where there are vastly different opinions and boundaries on what actually constitutes cheating sever enough to end the relationship. For me, this was all clearly beyond what I personally tolerate, but I acknowledge that others have different thresholds.


I would feel the same way. Doesn't sound like marriage material. When you think of how much of a risk you take when you marry someone if they can't even pass the test before the marriage it's just not worth it. If it was my son I would be much happier to lose the money now the have him ruin his life and have my potential grand kids suffer.

You are not going to tell your own brother?


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## Casual Observer

samyeagar said:


> There may be something fishy, and if it is, I'm a pretty observant and patient guy, I'll pick up on it.
> 
> I think my wife was very shocked, angry, upset and disgusted by what went on, particularly with my sister in law and daughter. She had never been around them in this sort of environment before, and my wife had never been in this environment before for that matter, and had a very rude awakening to the behaviour, and who these two women she thought very highly of could be. They knocked her rose coloured glasses right off of her face.


I think it likely your wife was pretty shocked and thought it best to make things out as bad as they could possibly be, because she knows you, she loves you, and she is smart enough to know how bad trickle-truthing would turn out, based on what you've said about your relationship. 

I'm guessing your wife might be tightening up her boundaries to be a bit more aligned with yours going forward. I don't think you'll need to push for that to happen, and pushing for it on your end might be counter-productive. I think your wife got in way over her head with that party and had no idea just how far things would go. I think it likely she was trying to model more-appropriate behavior in way that could be looked up to rather than ridiculed. 

Your wife is probably fine. Your daughter is a mess. As your wife thinks more and more about what went on, she could be the one in need of more clarity and support than you. Rather than blame your wife, I'd be discussing with her how your daughter could think it OK to put her in a situation like that. 

What a mess.


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## sokillme

wilson said:


> I can totally understand that a fully-mature adult would not be okay with this. But 20-year-olds.... I don't know. Who knows what the future groom was doing on his bachelor party. I wouldn't at all be surprised if he engaged in similar debauchery. I'm not so sure that this behavior spells doom for their future marriage. Obviously it's dangerous behavior, but I'm not convinced that it will continue. I'm sure many happy, long-term marriages had similar pre-wedding parties. I'm not saying it's a good way to start, but it's not necessarily a sign that the marriage won't work out.


So 24 is too young in your estimation to not know better then to bring a stranger to climax on a dance floor right before your marriage, (as long as you have you cloths on.) And besides who knows the groom might have done it too huh? That's a pretty low bar you got there. 

I am just as sure that people who behave like this are much more likely to cheat, or just be ****ty choices to be married to.


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## rugswept

with all those stupid women, wedding rings off, doing who knows what with grind dancing, the entire story is getting out to everyone. don't be surprised if thing much much worse went on that isn't out yet. it will be. 

i hope that groom to be is leaving the scene of a disaster. it's so disgusting to see these pre wedding party devolve into such swill that destroys any chance for a good start to an M. stupid, immoral scummy idiots.


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## niceguy47460

If I was you I would blow this whole party up once you find out more . I would not only look at your wife's Facebook but her phone to . Look for new contacts and chatting apps . Think about the other husbands and boyfriends who may not know anything about what went on . If the shoe was on the other foot and you knew nothing you would want someone to tell you . It sounds like you are just getting what your wife wants you to know . Just enough to keep her out of trouble with you . She figured if she told you thing that other done then you wouldn't be trying to find out what she done . And if you talk to the other husbands and boyfriends you might find out more yourself .


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## wilson

sokillme said:


> So 24 is too young in your estimation to not know better to bring a stranger to climax on a dance floor right before your marriage, (as long as you have you cloths on.) And besides who know the groom might have done it too huh? That's a pretty low bar you got there.
> 
> I am just as sure that people who behave like this are much more likely to cheat, or just be ****ty choices to be married to.


24 is pretty young. 24-year-olds make terrible choices all the time. But it doesn't necessarily mean that behavior will continue later in life. I would guess that this kind of behavior is not totally out of character. And as such, I would guess that her fiance is compatible in some way. Not necessarily that he's okay with that kind of stuff, but I doubt if he's a strongly-religious, introverted virgin who's saving himself for marriage. 

I'm bringing this up because I feel strongly that no one should step in and interfere with the marriage because of what happened. Unless there's some reason to think the fiance would be appalled, let them figure it out on their own. If the behavior continues, it will be a self-correcting problem. Of course that's awful, but it's not worth stepping in to stop a wedding because of something which might happen later on. Just approaching the issue will likely damage the relationship with the daughter.


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## niceguy47460

You should tell your brother because if he finds out you knew it could ruin your relationship with him .


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## samyeagar

sokillme said:


> I would feel the same way. Doesn't sound like marriage material. When you think of how much of a risk you take when you marry someone if they can't even pass the test before the marriage it's just not worth it. If it was my son I would be much happier to lose the money now the have him ruin his life and have my potential grand kids suffer.
> 
> You are not going to tell your own brother?


My sister in law is my wife's sister. I am not really sure of the full dynamic she has with her husband because she has openly talked in front of him about hiding the wedding rings to get free drinks. 

The whole hiding or removing rings for free drinks was a point of contention between my wife and I, because I saw it as very wrong, while she thought it was harmless, so long as the line beyond free drink was not crossed, and it ended with the drinks. My wife and I have had many discussions about patterns and clusters of behaviour, and if one is there, likely others are too. Theses things don't happen in a vacuum. My sister in law made my point in a very obvious way, and my wife now understands.


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## Faithful Wife

Can I just say that even though we may not agree with how Sam's daughter behaved, it is his daughter.


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## Tomara

I am sorry your daughter behaved in such a way. I rest my case on these these types of parties.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## samyeagar

Casual Observer said:


> I think it likely your wife was pretty shocked and thought it best to make things out as bad as they could possibly be, because she knows you, she loves you, and she is smart enough to know how bad trickle-truthing would turn out, based on what you've said about your relationship.
> 
> I'm guessing your wife might be tightening up her boundaries to be a bit more aligned with yours going forward. I don't think you'll need to push for that to happen, and pushing for it on your end might be counter-productive. I think your wife got in way over her head with that party and had no idea just how far things would go. I think it likely she was trying to model more-appropriate behavior in way that could be looked up to rather than ridiculed.
> 
> Your wife is probably fine. Your daughter is a mess. As your wife thinks more and more about what went on, she could be the one in need of more clarity and support than you. Rather than blame your wife, I'd be discussing with her how your daughter could think it OK to put her in a situation like that.
> 
> What a mess.


This I think is the underlying take away from all of this. She was in way over her head.

As my wife stated about the whole environment, near to verbatim as I can recall "You know my past, and all the things I've done, and crowd I ran with, and I have never, not even close, seen so many people so drunk for so long, and it was everywhere we went."


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## Rubix Cubed

Blondilocks said:


> So, why was your wife in such a hurry to fill you in? Something smells fishy.


 My guess is she wanted to get out in front of any messages or social media that Sam might come across. I think that was the honorable ( or as honorable as possible considering the situation) thing to do. @samyeagar you are smart to keep a sharp eye on things for a couple of months though.

e.t.a. Are you at peace with the belly shot? That wasn't great decision making in the respect department either.


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## Tilted 1

samyeagar said:


> Blondilocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, why was your wife in such a hurry to fill you in? Something smells fishy.
> 
> 
> 
> There may be something fishy, and if it is, I'm a pretty observant and patient guy, I'll pick up on it.
> 
> I think my wife was very shocked, angry, upset and disgusted by what went on, particularly with my sister in law and daughter. She had never been around them in this sort of environment before, and my wife had never been in this environment before for that matter, and had a very rude awakening to the behaviour, and who these two women she thought very highly of could be. They knocked her rose coloured glasses right off of her face.
Click to expand...

So, are you are going to be, the go along guy and not inform any other spouses about this. You and your wife took on this responsibility when she went and you gave your wife the blessings to go. Now it's time to pay the Piper.

Enablers are what you are doing to promote promiscuity, is not a wonder why this leads to infidelity and soon enough they will pay the price of there actions.


----------



## Tilted 1

wilson said:


> sokillme said:
> 
> 
> 
> So 24 is too young in your estimation to not know better to bring a stranger to climax on a dance floor right before your marriage, (as long as you have you cloths on.) And besides who know the groom might have done it too huh? That's a pretty low bar you got there.
> 
> I am just as sure that people who behave like this are much more likely to cheat, or just be ****ty choices to be married to.
> 
> 
> 
> 24 is pretty young. 24-year-olds make terrible choices all the time. But it doesn't necessarily mean that behavior will continue later in life. I would guess that this kind of behavior is not totally out of character. And as such, I would guess that her fiance is compatible in some way. Not necessarily that he's okay with that kind of stuff, but I doubt if he's a strongly-religious, introverted virgin who's saving himself for marriage.
> 
> I'm bringing this up because I feel strongly that no one should step in and interfere with the marriage because of what happened. Unless there's some reason to think the fiance would be appalled, let them figure it out on their own. If the behavior continues, it will be a self-correcting problem. Of course that's awful, but it's not worth stepping in to stop a wedding because of something which might happen later on. Just approaching the issue will likely damage the relationship with the daughter.
Click to expand...


I not better than thou, but at 18 l was making life and death decisions for me and others , and to give a free pass too 24+ as being too young is BS.


----------



## dubsey

just keep in mind, your daughter may very well have had boundaries agreed upon with the fiance before going out, and even if you don't like them, if they talked about it before hand, there's nothing to be upset about.

His hands may be equally has dirty after his weekend away with the guys.


----------



## Tilted 1

sokillme said:


> wilson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can totally understand that a fully-mature adult would not be okay with this. But 20-year-olds.... I don't know. Who knows what the future groom was doing on his bachelor party. I wouldn't at all be surprised if he engaged in similar debauchery. I'm not so sure that this behavior spells doom for their future marriage. Obviously it's dangerous behavior, but I'm not convinced that it will continue. I'm sure many happy, long-term marriages had similar pre-wedding parties. I'm not saying it's a good way to start, but it's not necessarily a sign that the marriage won't work out.
> 
> 
> 
> So 24 is too young in your estimation to not know better then to bring a stranger to climax on a dance floor right before your marriage, (as long as you have you cloths on.) And besides who knows the groom might have done it too huh? That's a pretty low bar you got there.
> 
> I am just as sure that people who behave like this are much more likely to cheat, or just be ****ty choices to be married to.
Click to expand...


I agree with you sokillme


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Can I just say that even though we may not agree with how Sam's daughter behaved, it is his daughter.


She is, and I am very disappointed in her. Not really angry. Just sad and disappointed.


----------



## Blondilocks

Faithful Wife said:


> Can I just say that even though we may not agree with how Sam's daughter behaved, it is his daughter.


Step-daughter. She is 24 and Sam and the Mrs. have been married for ten years. I'd wager that the girl's morality was established before Sam even met her mom. 

Add in the Mrs.' propensity to swoon openly over celebs in front of Sam and one can see why the daughter thought nothing of having her mom engage in that behavior and didn't give a thought to Sam's feelings on the matter.

Anyway, any girl who is so stupid to invite her future mother-in-law to a planned ****-show is too immature to get married.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> She is, and I am very disappointed in her. Not really angry. Just sad and disappointed.


I just don't want name calling and brutal insults toward her to start happening. It is fine people don't agree with it.

I'll just be reading along. It makes me sad. And I'm about as fun of a party girl anyone could ever meet! But that's for single people. 

I hope everything turns out for the best, even if that means the wedding gets called off or whatever.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Blondilocks said:


> Step-daughter. She is 24 and Sam and the Mrs. have been married for ten years. I'd wager that the girl's morality was established before Sam even met her mom.
> 
> Add in the Mrs.' propensity to swoon openly over celebs in front of Sam and one can see why the daughter thought nothing of having her mom engage in that behavior and didn't give a thought to Sam's feelings on the matter.
> 
> Anyway, any girl who is so stupid to invite her future mother-in-law to a planned ****-show is too immature to get married.


I think this is Sam's daughter from his first marriage.


----------



## Tilted 1

dubsey said:


> just keep in mind, your daughter may very well have had boundaries agreed upon with the fiance before going out, and even if you don't like them, if they talked about it before hand, there's nothing to be upset about.
> 
> His hands may be equally has dirty after his weekend away with the guys.


If that is indeed the case it should be brought up to know for sure. And do the honorable thing for your future SIL. But l put bets down on the other spouses didn't agree to.


----------



## samyeagar

Blondilocks said:


> Step-daughter. She is 24 and Sam and the Mrs. have been married for ten years. I'd wager that the girl's morality was established before Sam even met her mom.
> 
> Add in the Mrs.' propensity to swoon openly over celebs in front of Sam and one can see why the daughter thought nothing of having her mom engage in that behavior and didn't give a thought to Sam's feelings on the matter.
> 
> Anyway, any girl who is so stupid to invite her future mother-in-law to a planned ****-show is too immature to get married.


Aye, and there's the rub...


----------



## Casual Observer

Faithful Wife said:


> Can I just say that even though we may not agree with how Sam's daughter behaved, it is his daughter.


Not sure I understand the context for your comment? I don't think the party and/or the actions's of his wife can be viewed without looking at the daughter's responsibility for how things played out. OP brought up the daughter; nobody had to ask. I think discussion of the Fiance might be a different thing though, because we know nothing of the relationship, we don't know what he knows about his soon-to-be-bride and could be he thinks this is just a pre-marriage fling, get it out of the way now. We don't know, and speculation there is unfair. But I think it ok to be discussing the daughter's actions. Or am I misinterpreting you? I'm good at that sometimes! Thanks-


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> I think this is Sam's daughter from his first marriage.


No, it is my step daughter, though for all intents and purposes, we function as a father daughter combo. She has long since dropped the "step" part, and I am the one she wants walking her down the aisle. But yes, as a point of technicality, she is my step daughter.


----------



## sokillme

dubsey said:


> just keep in mind, your daughter may very well have had boundaries agreed upon with the fiance before going out, and even if you don't like them, if they talked about it before hand, there's nothing to be upset about.
> 
> His hands may be equally has dirty after his weekend away with the guys.


That doesn't excuse her encouraging her father's wife to break boundaries that he and his wife have agreed upon though. Which is why many of us have said this would be the worst part. 

If she is that disloyal to her own father and his marriage that doesn't bode well for her husband. 

The truth is the besides all this if this is her thinking she is in for a very hard life and seems to stupid to know it yet.


----------



## samyeagar

Casual Observer said:


> Not sure I understand the context for your comment? I don't think the party and/or the actions's of his wife can be viewed without looking at the daughter's responsibility for how things played out. OP brought up the daughter; nobody had to ask. I think discussion of the Fiance might be a different thing though, because we know nothing of the relationship, we don't know what he knows about his soon-to-be-bride and could be he thinks this is just a pre-marriage fling, get it out of the way now. We don't know, and speculation there is unfair. But I think it ok to be discussing the daughter's actions. Or am I misinterpreting you? I'm good at that sometimes! Thanks-


Discussing the behaviour and all that is fine, but I think that with such a heated and contentious topic, FW was trying to remind people to remain respectful.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Casual Observer said:


> Not sure I understand the context for your comment? I don't think the party and/or the actions's of his wife can be viewed without looking at the daughter's responsibility for how things played out. OP brought up the daughter; nobody had to ask. I think discussion of the Fiance might be a different thing though, because we know nothing of the relationship, we don't know what he knows about his soon-to-be-bride and could be he thinks this is just a pre-marriage fling, get it out of the way now. We don't know, and speculation there is unfair. But I think it ok to be discussing the daughter's actions. Or am I misinterpreting you? I'm good at that sometimes! Thanks-


People have a tendency to call names and get very ugly when these topics come up. Just hoping that people can say how they feel without going to extremes.


----------



## samyeagar

sokillme said:


> That doesn't excuse her encouraging her fathers wife to behave in boundaries that break what he and his wife have agreed upon though. Which is why many of us have said this would be the worst part.
> 
> If she is that disloyal to her own fathers marriage that doesn't bode well for her husband.
> 
> The truth is the besides all this if this is her thinking she is in for a very hard life and seems to stupid to know it yet.


Leading from this, my wife and daughter talked on the phone last night after they both got home, and what I heard was my wife trying to explain why all of those things were wrong and destructive a relationship. I am just not sure some of these women actually thought there was anything all that wrong because after all, they didn't let anyone put a **** in their mouth, or bang any of them, so it must have all been fine right?

One thing my (step)daughter and I have never really talked about are my personal boundaries as a man, husband,partner, when it comes to my relationship. What I will and won't tolerate. Where I feel the lines are. Never really seemed like something necessary. Looks like it it now. Too little, too late maybe, but I guess better late than never.


----------



## jlg07

samyeagar said:


> I do plan on poking around my wife's Facebook a bit over the next few weeks just to see what pops up, but I do think she told me everything that happened.
> 
> My daughter is the bride to be. It appears the worst behaviour was from my married sister in law, followed by my daughter and a couple of married bridesmaids.
> 
> I didn't pry for gory details, but my wife put it in perspective pretty well by saying that as well as I know her, and her own personal feelings on things like mixed company interactions while in committed relationships, that if I had been doing some of the same things as my sister in law and daughter and some of the other women in relationships, that my wife would have been extremely angry, and would have a hard time staying in the relationship. For additional perspective, by wife has very relaxed boundaries when it comes to this sort of thing.


Well maybe their husbands (and fiancee) need to be told of their activities anonymously. It is BS that they did this, there will be NO consequences and their poor sucker husbands/bf/fiances are non-the-wiser? Doesn't bode well for the future of your daughters relationship if this is how she thinks now.


----------



## SunCMars

Faithful Wife said:


> Can I just say that even though we may not agree with how Sam's daughter behaved, it is his daughter.


Yes, one cannot divorce one's blood relative, especially, one's daughter.

.....................................................................

Some good will come out of this....

His wife has gotten a hard education, her sister is no longer going to be any sort of role model. The sister's status has now taken a deserved nose dive.

If the marriage does not happen, his daughter [bride] will be forced to see her errors in thinking this behavior is OK. And 'may' rethink these things.

I think OP's wife is covering up some of the things the daughter may have done. To protect OP's feelings.

..................................................................


If the wedding goes through, the grooms mother will poison the new marriage, 

For now, she will likely do her best to stop the marriage. 
And she should.


.................................................................

"Class" , having proper dignity, can be taught, should be taught to your children.
If the parents have 'class', the children, hopefully, will see its value and mimic them.


Yes, society has a way of undermining the good that parents instill in their children.


Welcome to the New Liberalism.
Actually, this is a step backwards, relative to history.



KB-


----------



## sokillme

samyeagar said:


> Leading from this, my wife and daughter talked on the phone last night after they both got home, and what I heard was my wife trying to explain why all of those things were wrong and destructive a relationship. I am just not sure some of these women actually thought there was anything all that wrong because after all, they didn't let anyone put a **** in their mouth, or bang any of them, so it must have all been fine right?
> 
> One thing my (step)daughter and I have never really talked about are my personal boundaries as a man, husband,partner, when it comes to my relationship. What I will and won't tolerate. Where I feel the lines are. Never really seemed like something necessary. Looks like it it now. Too little, too late maybe, but I guess better late than never.


Just make sure you have the full story. If you read on here you know that usually when this stuff comes out the first story is "prettied up" as to cushion the blow. Is your wife one to tell you about stuff like this in the past?


----------



## samyeagar

sokillme said:


> That doesn't excuse her encouraging her father's wife to break boundaries that he and his wife have agreed upon though. Which is why many of us have said this would be the worst part.
> 
> If she is that disloyal to her own father and his marriage that doesn't bode well for her husband.
> 
> The truth is the besides all this if this is her thinking she is in for a very hard life and seems to stupid to know it yet.


I think this was a huge eye opener for my wife. She is not really experienced with this particular dynamic of young younger people, and her sister and daughter in particular, with mixed singles, large group with unlimited alcohol, lack of self restraint, mixing in with hundreds of others, hot sun, beach attire. Basically your Florida Beach college spring break.


----------



## samyeagar

sokillme said:


> Just make sure you have the full story. If you read on here you know that usually when this stuff comes out the first story is "prettied up" as to cushion the blow. Is your wife one to tell you about stuff like this in the past?


She has come forward with some pretty brutal truths which she knew had the potential to end our relationship. She generally does not pretty up the truth, and is kind of a hot take, stream of consciousness kind of person, so I do think it likely that she is being straight forward here.


----------



## Taxman

Now, I married off my daughter last spring. She, being fairly financially well off, went with three of her best girlfriends to a spa in the Dominican. They returned steamed, massaged, well fed, and knowing these four women as I do, nothing untoward could happen. (Her GF is also my shrink, and unless I am a completely naive fool, nothin coulda happened). I went to my son in law's bachelor party, good BBQ, followed by blackjack and poker. (I am guilty of taking his buddies for a few hundred). Since I was a DJ before I married and saw way too many of these things get out of hand (DJ'ed in a male stripjoint, and the bridal parties lining up to the VIP rooms convinced me that I just did not want that **** to start my marriage), I stated to my fiance that I was going to forego a bachelor party, she took a weekend in New York with her Mom to add to her trousseau-my FIL lamented that a bachelorette would have been less expensive. Wife started the marriage with designer duds, I had one suit and a lot of Levis.


----------



## samyeagar

Taxman said:


> Now, I married off my daughter last spring. She, being fairly financially well off, went with three of her best girlfriends to a spa in the Dominican. They returned steamed, massaged, well fed, and knowing these four women as I do, nothing untoward could happen. (Her GF is also my shrink, and unless I am a completely naive fool, nothin coulda happened). I went to my son in law's bachelor party, good BBQ, followed by blackjack and poker. (I am guilty of taking his buddies for a few hundred). Since I was a DJ before I married and saw way too many of these things get out of hand (DJ'ed in a male stripjoint, and the bridal parties lining up to the VIP rooms convinced me that I just did not want that shytte to start my marriage), I stated to my fiance that I was going to forego a bachelor party, she took a weekend in New York with her Mom to add to her trousseau-my FIL lamented that a bachelorette would have been less expensive. Wife started the marriage with designer duds, I had one suit and a lot of Levis.


These kinds of situations seem to happen with enough regularity to make them seem somewhat of a norm, or expectation, thus normalizing the behaviour, just not freeing the participants from the consequences.


----------



## michzz

OK, time to let all concerned just own their own behavior. No running interference for a 24-year-old.

The only thing I would do is to not pay for a damned thing anymore for anything you do not think is right.

Propping up amoral people faking a wedding vow?

Nope.

Step back in your involvement or interest. You are not responsible for what is happening at all.


----------



## BioFury

samyeagar said:


> Leading from this, my wife and daughter talked on the phone last night after they both got home, and what I heard was my wife trying to explain why all of those things were wrong and destructive a relationship. I am just not sure some of these women actually thought there was anything all that wrong because after all, they didn't let anyone put a **** in their mouth, or bang any of them, so it must have all been fine right?
> 
> One thing my (step)daughter and I have never really talked about are my personal boundaries as a man, husband,partner, when it comes to my relationship. What I will and won't tolerate. Where I feel the lines are. Never really seemed like something necessary. Looks like it it now. Too little, too late maybe, but I guess better late than never.


You say they talked about what happened, but what did your daughter have to say about it? What was the result of the conversation?


----------



## samyeagar

First, she didn't like being lectured and yelled at. I think she is upset that things kind of went downhill the way they did. I think she realizes she did things wrong, but I am not sure she fully grasps what exactly she did wrong, if that makes any sense.


----------



## syhoybenden

samyeagar said:


> but I am not sure she fully grasps what exactly she did wrong


???? Really?


----------



## samyeagar

syhoybenden said:


> ???? Really?


One thing we really need to keep in mind here is that here on TAM, we are a self selecting group who actually discusses boundary issues. It is not uncommon for people to consider anything short of actual PIV sex as not cheating, and that heavy grinding up really hard out in public may be a bit over the top, but not all that bad, and there are a lot of people who would feel the same way...until it happens to them of course.

I think that is how she is looking at this, and why she doesn't understand the reaction, especially from the older wiser women like her mom and fiances mother. That she just doesn't have the life experience to know where that line between innocent and a bit edgy fun, and bad behaviour is, and how to keep from crossing it.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I have an issue with my own grown daughter regarding boundaries. She seems to think that Snapchatting and texting, and even hanging out with, with another guy/girl (as "friends") is ok within supposedly committed relationships... because you know, you are entitled to have friends and any guy or girl who says they dont want you doing that are controlling and dont trust you. Omg we have gone around about this I cant tell you how many times. She literally tells me that I am ridiculous and paranoid, and that things are different now days, that my way of thinking is outdated. Yep, WTF do I know?? You better believe I am throwing a giant I told you so at her when the inevitable happens, whether it is TO her or BY her. I dont want either one to happen of course.


----------



## syhoybenden

Sam you said "I think that is how she is looking at this, and why she doesn't understand the reaction, especially from the older wiser women like her mom and fiances mother. That she just doesn't have the life experience to know where that line between innocent and a bit edgy fun, and bad behaviour is, and how to keep from crossing it. "





Well, you know her and we don't. But what we can do is to get a feel for your concern, your unease with the events.

It's been a long time since I was 24 so I am willing to admit that my view of this today may not be the same as it would have been when I was that age.

Add to this that accepted societal norms have evolved, or should I say devolved, from what they were 44 years ago. Not that there's anything good about that.

Perhaps she and her fiance had made some kind of pact? 

I wish you and yours well. Hope things resolve themselves.


----------



## MattMatt

Casual Observer said:


> Not sure I understand the context for your comment? I don't think the party and/or the actions's of his wife can be viewed without looking at the daughter's responsibility for how things played out. OP brought up the daughter; nobody had to ask. I think discussion of the Fiance might be a different thing though, because we know nothing of the relationship, we don't know what he knows about his soon-to-be-bride and could be he thinks this is just a pre-marriage fling, get it out of the way now. We don't know, and speculation there is unfair. But I think it ok to be discussing the daughter's actions. Or am I misinterpreting you? I'm good at that sometimes! Thanks-


Clearly she doesn't want people to say rude, thoughtless things about her. 

*And neither do the moderators. *


----------



## Tilted 1

samyeagar said:


> syhoybenden said:
> 
> 
> 
> ???? Really?
> 
> 
> 
> One thing we really need to keep in mind here is that here on TAM, we are a self selecting group who actually discusses boundary issues. It is not uncommon for people to consider anything short of actual PIV sex as not cheating, and that heavy grinding up really hard out in public may be a bit over the top, but not all that bad, and there are a lot of people who would feel the same way...until it happens to them of course.
> 
> I think that is how she is looking at this, and why she doesn't understand the reaction, especially from the older wiser women like her mom and fiances mother. That she just doesn't have the life experience to know where that line between innocent and a bit edgy fun, and bad behaviour is, and how to keep from crossing it.
Click to expand...

Well, that's a first l see on Tam that grinding and getting one rubbed out with panties on. Isn't sex. Thanks for setting the record straight. And what you would allow.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Tilted 1 said:


> Well, that's a first l see on Tam that grinding and getting one rubbed out with panties on. Isn't sex. Thanks for setting the record straight. And what you would allow.


That is NOT what he said...


----------



## stillthinking

The groom needs to know. One way or another.

He is risking half of his future income and retirement by getting married. He needs to have a full picture of who and what he is risking it for.

Maybe he won’t care, maybe he will.

But it needs to be his decision and a fully informed one at that.


----------



## TDSC60

I think it will all come to a head when the groom's mother tells him about his future bride's behavior.

Or maybe not, if he had a lap dance at his bachelor party.

What I can't get over is the daughter you raised urging her Mom to do body shots with the guys in the bar.


----------



## Openminded

IIRC, you were concerned beforehand about how all this might go. And obviously you were right to be. I think your step-daughter's marriage is unlikely to last (assuming it happens) if she plans to continue that type of behavior. I wonder if her fiancé's mom has shared anything with him.


----------



## Tilted 1

samyeagar said:


> syhoybenden said:
> 
> 
> 
> ???? Really?
> 
> 
> 
> One thing we really need to keep in mind here is that here on TAM, we are a self selecting group who actually discusses boundary issues.
> 
> It is not uncommon for people to consider anything short of actual PIV sex as not cheating, and that heavy grinding up really hard out in public may be a bit over the top, but not all that bad,
Click to expand...

I guess this isn't what, he meant.

I then believe if my wife we're to get a rub out in underwear attire or its equivalent . Just isn't sex ho-hum the new norm.


----------



## michzz

samyeagar said:


> One thing we really need to keep in mind here is that here on TAM, we are a self selecting group who actually discusses boundary issues. It is not uncommon for people to consider anything short of actual PIV sex as not cheating, and that heavy grinding up really hard out in public may be a bit over the top, but not all that bad, and there are a lot of people who would feel the same way...until it happens to them of course.
> 
> I think that is how she is looking at this, and why she doesn't understand the reaction, especially from the older wiser women like her mom and fiances mother. That she just doesn't have the life experience to know where that line between innocent and a bit edgy fun, and bad behaviour is, and how to keep from crossing it.





3Xnocharm said:


> I have an issue with my own grown daughter regarding boundaries. She seems to think that Snapchatting and texting, and even hanging out with, with another guy/girl (as "friends") is ok within supposedly committed relationships... because you know, you are entitled to have friends and any guy or girl who says they dont want you doing that are controlling and dont trust you. Omg we have gone around about this I cant tell you how many times. She literally tells me that I am ridiculous and paranoid, and that things are different now days, that my way of thinking is outdated. Yep, WTF do I know?? You better believe I am throwing a giant I told you so at her when the inevitable happens, whether it is TO her or BY her. I dont want either one to happen of course.


I'm thinking that when/if she gets to have kids and has a similar conversation with a daughter, said daughter will tell her she is old fashioned because if you don't thrust back during PIV it doesn't count as cheating.


----------



## Diana7

samyeagar said:


> We've only sunk a couple thousand in. The groom is from a very well off family, and have sunk probably 30k. And that is where things are going to get interesting. My daughter made it very clear before hand to everyone that she was not going to curb or tailor her behaviour to suit anyone coming on the trip. That she was going to do what she was going to do by god. Well, she and the mother of the groom got into it. Not sure of everything that was said between them, but it was clear there were some issues.
> 
> That said, it is kind of funny here that as far as the money goes, the one thing that is bugging me most right now about that is that during that final night, my daughter lost her glasses, and my wife is feeling partly responsible considering she was supposed to be the one to keep the lid on things and keep things like that from happening. So my wife is wanting to buy the grown ass woman child a new pair, or at least partially. I am of the mind that no, my wife wasn't responsible, she did the best she could, and this woman who is two weeks from getting married should be able to take responsibility for her own poor behaviour.


Not only would I never go to an event like this, but I would be totally ashamed if one of my daughters acted like that.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> I think this was a huge eye opener for my wife. She is not really experienced with this particular dynamic of young younger people, and her sister and daughter in particular, with mixed singles, large group with unlimited alcohol, lack of self restraint, mixing in with hundreds of others, hot sun, beach attire. Basically your Florida Beach college spring break.


Heck yes, it is a BLAST down there! I went the past 2 summers in a row. Not strippers and that crap, who needs them when there are hundreds of mostly naked hotties everywhere?

One thing I was amused by was Coyote Ugly's. We don't have that here. Girls get up on the bar and flash their boobs at everyone. Free show! I was sincerely disappointed in the fact that none of the bartenders could actually dance, though. They made very awkward clomps across the bar in their cowboy boots and that was about it. The group I was with, the girls were shoving each other toward the line where you get up on the bar, laughing, you get up there! No YOU get up there! All of them wanted to be "forced" up there. I just rolled my eyes. Since they all wanted to be the one who was forced, not the one who was forcing, they all ended up giving up and no one got on the bar.

Oh and, apparently it is a tradition to leave your bra there and then they hang it up on a clothesline across the bar. It was hundreds and hundreds of the ugliest, tackiest, rattiest padded bras I've ever seen. That was actually really gross seeing them all at once. (In case you don't know, bras like that are not made from natural materials and they stink like hell if you get them sweaty and beer spilled on them, as every single one of these bras was).

So yeah, it was a BLAST!!! And I didn't even talk about the parts at the beach or pool or hot tub....

But I am a single person, after all. :|


----------



## SunCMars

TDSC60 said:


> I think it will all come to a head when the groom's mother tells him about his future bride's behavior.
> 
> Or maybe not, if he had a lap dance at his bachelor party.
> 
> What I can't get over is *the daughter you raised urging her Mom to do body shots with the guys* in the bar.


And what does this tell you about the daughters thinking?

She wants the mother to be as culpable as her.
She treated her mom as a friend, not a parent.
She reduced her to her level.

Alcohol does this....yes.

The daughter was having a great time, she thought the mother should join in and enjoy the moment just as much as she was.

She was living in the moment, not giving a care about any future consequence. OP, also stated this.

*Live for today, the hell with tomorrow.
Tomorrow will have its own day to live. 
Today is mine to enjoy.*

Remember, she had said, even before the party had started, that she was not going to hold back.
She said that while sober.

Why is this?

It rather sounds like the daughter views marriage as a prison sentence.
When, all fun stops, the merry-go-round, stops.

These thoughts are more common than you may think. 
And, mostly have been for centuries.



KB-


----------



## Casual Observer

stillthinking said:


> The groom needs to know. One way or another.


If I were in the OP's shoes, I want to know more about the groom first, and whether this is the sort of thing he thinks is just something to casually do for fun. No reason to make a fool out of yourself (by informing him) if in fact it's the groom and bride both engaging in consensual strange behavior.


----------



## sokillme

samyeagar said:


> One thing we really need to keep in mind here is that here on TAM, we are a self selecting group who actually discusses boundary issues. It is not uncommon for people to consider anything short of actual PIV sex as not cheating, and that heavy grinding up really hard out in public may be a bit over the top, but not all that bad, and there are a lot of people who would feel the same way...until it happens to them of course.
> 
> I think that is how she is looking at this, and why she doesn't understand the reaction, especially from the older wiser women like her mom and fiances mother. That she just doesn't have the life experience to know where that line between innocent and a bit edgy fun, and bad behaviour is, and how to keep from crossing it.


Thing is, dancing with someone is not cheating, though suggestive dancing is not right when you are married. However the way you tell it they were humping, which is wrong. Besides that you make it seem if it wasn't for your wife they may have ended up back at these guys house.


----------



## Faithful Wife

sokillme said:


> Thing is, dancing with someone is not cheating, though suggestive dancing is not right when you are married. However the way you tell it they were humping, which is wrong. Besides that you make it seem* if it wasn't for your wife they may have ended up back at these guys house*.


I'm sure that is true.

As much as I love to party, I've always been the "mom" of every group and have always been the one talking someone out of doing something they will regret. And then they still usually get up to some bad stuff....but just not as bad as what would have happened if mom wasn't there. They didn't invite me around just to keep them out of trouble. It was hit or miss. When I didn't go and no other den mom was around, they did dumber things. Not the same group of people, either. Just women I've known over the years and what happens in groups.

Usually if someone slips past my mom gate and into some trouble, they are on their own. I don't help or look for them or find out what happens next. I'm just out.

These would not be anyone who I have been very close with or family. Just outsiders, acquaintances, friends of friends, wives and girlfriends of brothers and friends, people like that. 

I'm always down for people having adult fun, but not when someone is about to just be plain idiotic, unsafe, and completely boy bonkers. Also, even though I would try to corral them out of harm's way and was usually successful, if I knew that person was going to be at an upcoming group thing I would not go to that thing. I don't want to hang out with them after that.

Basically it is only the most funnest bestest times if ALL in my group are truly single. 

OTOH, I also have group friends of totally old ladies who really do just sip mimosas and chatter about how good the food is and wonder what time the hot tub closes (and we are staying at a place where only old people are in the hot tub, no hotties to be seen). These are fun times, too. Men and young men still hit on us, though. Can't help that.


----------



## Deejo

It was a bachelorette party ... at a resort ... attended by a cadre of women who WANTED to have a bachelorette party at a resort. Frankly I find the level of affront at what went on, comical.

More to the point, please cease hostility at the OP ... or his daughter. 

What went on doesn't align with your sense of morals or idea of fun? Don't have anything constructive to offer outside of shock or outrage? 

Walk away from the thread.

Or you will be banned.


----------



## ConanHub

samyeagar said:


> We've only sunk a couple thousand in. The groom is from a very well off family, and have sunk probably 30k. And that is where things are going to get interesting. My daughter made it very clear before hand to everyone that she was not going to curb or tailor her behaviour to suit anyone coming on the trip. That she was going to do what she was going to do by god. Well, she and the mother of the groom got into it. Not sure of everything that was said between them, but it was clear there were some issues.
> 
> That said, it is kind of funny here that as far as the money goes, the one thing that is bugging me most right now about that is that during that final night, my daughter lost her glasses, and my wife is feeling partly responsible considering she was supposed to be the one to keep the lid on things and keep things like that from happening. So my wife is wanting to buy the grown ass woman child a new pair, or at least partially. I am of the mind that no, my wife wasn't responsible, she did the best she could, and this woman who is two weeks from getting married should be able to take responsibility for her own poor behaviour.




Her fiance is well off? Does he have self esteem issues? I'm just trying to wrap my head around his mindset?


----------



## jlg07

Another question here that seems to have been glossed over. Your WIFE went along with having some random guy drink a shot from her body! WHAT. THAT doesn't go over the line for you?
And she STOPPED at that? Are you sure? Seems like she got caught up in all the craziness as well....


----------



## Marduk

jlg07 said:


> Another question here that seems to have been glossed over. Your WIFE went along with having some random guy drink a shot from her body! WHAT. THAT doesn't go over the line for you?
> 
> And she STOPPED at that? Are you sure? Seems like she got caught up in all the craziness as well....




Ya, I’m kinda hung up on that myself.


----------



## Tilted 1

samyeagar said:


> Well, my daughters bachelorette weekend away is over. My wife and I had a few texts over the course of the weekend, and she called me Saturday night from the club they were all at and we talked for a few minutes. Things seemed to be going alright, or as well as they can be when trying to herd cats.
> 
> There were 11 of them, nine were either married or in committed relationships, five over 35. They all met at my wife's sisters house, and then carpooled the four hours drive from there. A bit after their checkout time, and time they were starting to head home, I got the following text from my wife
> 
> "Is it OK if I call you after I leave my sisters? Things went rather downhill rather quickly after I talked to you last night, & I don't want to wait till I get home to talk to you"
> 
> So we talked.
> 
> Group IQ drop had kicked in. Poor choices were made. Lines were crossed.
> 
> Pretty much all of the married or committed ones ventured firmly into that area between inappropriate, and disrespectful, to downright divorce worthy. Some went further than others, and some all the way.
> 
> The Friday night stripper wasn't the issue. It was the Saturday swim up bar clubs starting before noon, drinking until they closed with hundreds of people in the skimpiest swim attire they could manage.
> 
> My wife had stopped drinking after the lunch time club because she decided to be a designated driver to help cut down on the extremely expensive Uber costs. She was able to take five in her car, leaving six that still needed to take an Uber, and just for perspective, a peak hour Uber that seats six to take them the 20 miles back to the condo...$285. But I digress.
> 
> As far as my wife's contribution to the list of crossed lines, the bride to be convinced her to let some dude with amazing ad and pecks take a body shot out of my wife's navel, and when our daughter tried to get her to do it again with another guy at the night time club, my wife declined and started showing people pictures of my body, that she had better at home, and not only that, but if she asked me to have a bottle of chilled wine and a bubble bath ready for her when she got home, she had no doubt that I would. And she wasn't wanting to screw that up. My visceral reaction to things like that is not necessarily one of anger, rather it is to shut down sexually, which can be just as bad for the relationship.
> 
> The part about my body, that was good, but damn, I had a pretty harsh internal reflex reaction to the whole bubble bath and wine part, and in less than a second, it all just flashed that I cook, clean, laundry, sew, bake, and I know it wasn't her intent, but the term man servant came to mind. Again, I digress.
> 
> On the plus side, at least my wife left her wedding ring on, unlike some of the other women. Of course the rationalization is saving $50 on free drinks, but those kinds of things, and that mindset does not happen in a vacuum. It is one of actively seeking opposite sex attention from people other than one's partner. Doing it to save $50 my ass when you just dropped almost $300 for the ride to get there.
> 
> Now, there was not any actual skin to skin below the waist contact, but there are quite a few highly sexual things that can be done fully clothed on the dance floor, some that end up with the guy being relieved, and some of the girls were rather proud of themselves for being able to accomplish just that.
> 
> And of course the truth finally and fully came out of at least this group when my wife and the mother of the groom were trying to round them all up on this girls weekend bachelorette party...No, they should not go back to the guys they met's condo to keep drinking and partying. They could go back to their own and do that. But that's not where the boys are...
> 
> Some things were Snapchatted for all to see, but there some things that weren't. Those were the things my wife advised her daughter to tell her fiance, because he will no doubt hear about them in the next few weeks with all of these people being involved in the wedding, and many of them honestly believing that there was nothing inappropriate with what they were doing.
> 
> I think that was what upset my wife the most was really seeing some of these people for exactly who they are when left to make their own choices, and that so many lines were so easily and quickly crossed, and how this sort of chain of events happens. She'd never really seen it before, but I guess being with me for almost a decade, and being sober watching it brings a whole new perspective.


So Sam,,.......... posting this in the coping with infidelity, can you please explain what it is you are seeking, from us fellow TAM members to help you with. Is this a rhetorical post or a advice/ guidance seeking post?


----------



## BioFury

samyeagar said:


> One thing we really need to keep in mind here is that here on TAM, we are a self selecting group who actually discusses boundary issues. It is not uncommon for people to consider anything short of actual PIV sex as not cheating, and that heavy grinding up really hard out in public may be a bit over the top, but not all that bad, and there are a lot of people who would feel the same way...until it happens to them of course.
> 
> I think that is how she is looking at this, and why she doesn't understand the reaction, especially from the older wiser women like her mom and fiances mother. That she just doesn't have the life experience to know where that line between innocent and a bit edgy fun, and bad behaviour is, and how to keep from crossing it.


While I can appreciate what you're saying, I don't think rubbing your butt on a random guys penis is acceptable behavior for a woman in a relationship to engage in, in any circle. Self-selected marriage gurus or otherwise.

Has your daughter's fiance, and your brother in law, been told about the things that happened?


----------



## Wolfman1968

wilson said:


> 24 is pretty young. 24-year-olds make terrible choices all the time. But it doesn't necessarily mean that behavior will continue later in life.


(just focusing on the age issue.)

OK, think about the inherent contradiction of this statement in this situation.

You have a 24-year old bride-to-be who, by definition, is making the MOST IMPORTANT DECISION OF HER LIFE by getting married in two weeks.

Yet, you maintain that her decision to behave badly at her bachelorette party is because she makes immature decisions because she is 24.

Don't you see the basic inconsistency here?

If she is old enough to make a responsible decision to get married, then she ought to be old enough to make responsible decisions on her sexual/social behavior. 

It just seems to me that making a good life-long decision to choose your mate with whom you would want to grow old with, and have children with, takes MORE maturity and MORE thought than maintaining drunken party boundaries.

(If the bride and groom have a "no questions asked" policy on their bachelorette/bachelor parties, that's their business, but the issue of the maturity disparity remains.)


----------



## syhoybenden

Wolfman1968 said:


> (If the bride and groom have a "no questions asked" policy on their bachelorette/bachelor parties, that's their business, )


Sam, this begs the question ...... How did the boy's bachelor party go down? Respectable and straight-laced? Or bawdy and vulgar?
Or were you not invited? If you weren't, then I think we have the answer.
A tidy explanation with a bow on it. A pact.

Kids today. Sigh.


----------



## ConanHub

syhoybenden said:


> Sam, this begs the question ...... How did the boy's bachelor party go down? Respectable and straight-laced? Or bawdy and vulgar?
> Or were you not invited? If you weren't, then I think we have the answer.
> A tidy explanation with a bow on it. A pact.
> 
> Kids today. Sigh.


I believe the groom got really wild. Golfing.....


----------



## personofinterest

I have never understood these parties Chama and if I were the original poster I would be both concerned and disgusted.

However, I find some of the posts on this thread interesting in light of the way a woman was recently scolded for not wanting her fiance to go to a stripper bachelor party. Cognitive dissonance is fascinating to observe.


----------



## samyeagar

SunCMars said:


> And what does this tell you about the daughters thinking?
> 
> She wants the mother to be as culpable as her.
> She treated her mom as a friend, not a parent.
> She reduced her to her level.
> 
> Alcohol does this....yes.
> 
> The daughter was having a great time, she thought the mother should join in and enjoy the moment just as much as she was.
> 
> She was living in the moment, not giving a care about any future consequence. OP, also stated this.
> 
> *Live for today, the hell with tomorrow.
> Tomorrow will have its own day to live.
> Today is mine to enjoy.*
> 
> Remember, she had said, even before the party had started, that she was not going to hold back.
> She said that while sober.
> 
> Why is this?
> 
> It rather sounds like the daughter views marriage as a prison sentence.
> When, all fun stops, the merry-go-round, stops.
> 
> These thoughts are more common than you may think.
> And, mostly have been for centuries.
> 
> 
> 
> KB-


I do think that daughter viewed mom as a friend as a parent, which is kind of a continuation of their life long dynamic. My wife had spent a lot of time trying to be that cool mom, and only when she had gotten a bit older did she try and change that.

My wife is harbouring quite a bit of guilt about how things went down, and that she should have been able to keep them more in line. What I tried to explain to her about the adult children is that they aren't four where you can just pick them up and carry them away. That the only authority she had to do anything, to sway their decisions was the authority the kids gave them. Of course, they listened to her when she was ok with what they were doing, but as soon as she tried to have them dial things back, she just became that old stick in the mid.


----------



## samyeagar

ConanHub said:


> Her fiance is well off? Does he have self esteem issues? I'm just trying to wrap my head around his mindset?


I don't think he has self esteem issues. He is 24 and she is quite attractive.


----------



## Blondilocks

personofinterest said:


> I have never understood these parties Chama and if I were the original poster I would be both concerned and disgusted.
> 
> However, I find some of the posts on this thread interesting in light of the way a woman was recently scolded for not wanting her fiance to go to a stripper bachelor party. Cognitive dissonance is fascinating to observe.


Your talk to text is a hoot at times (must be the Southern accent ha-ha).

You must realize that there are different rules for men versus women on this forum. There is no such thing as what is good for the goose is good for the gander.


----------



## ConanHub

samyeagar said:


> I don't think he has self esteem issues. He is 24 and she is quite attractive.


I meant that usually someone with self respect doesn't pair with someone that disrespects their relationship unless it is an open one.

Does the door swing both ways? Is she fine with him getting all kinds of sexual attention short of intercourse?


----------



## ConanHub

Blondilocks said:


> Your talk to text is a hoot at times (must be the Southern accent ha-ha).
> 
> You must realize that there are different rules for men versus women on this forum. There is no such thing as what is good for the goose is good for the gander.


Be fair now. I'm among the numbers of TAM men that do not defend porn use or strippers for men, or women for that matter.:wink2:


----------



## samyeagar

jlg07 said:


> Another question here that seems to have been glossed over. Your WIFE went along with having some random guy drink a shot from her body! WHAT. THAT doesn't go over the line for you?
> And she STOPPED at that? Are you sure? Seems like she got caught up in all the craziness as well....





Marduk said:


> Ya, I’m kinda hung up on that myself.


Yeah, my wife and I talked a lot about this, and I do believe it stopped with that. This was the big elephant in the room...

As I said, I think my wife was entirely beyond her element with this between the club environment, amount of alcohol consumed, singles company, and group IQ drop. Perfect storm that had never really happened since we have been together, and is unlike any situation she is likely to be in again. It was also very out of character for her, in that when she and her friends get together, they are usually at one of their houses, truly girls only. When they go out anywhere it is usually to a place like Starbucks, or lunch at the local Mexican restaurant for chips and salsa, tacos, and margaritas. I honestly can't remember the last time she went out to a bar or any place like that without me.

It was a spectacularly bad decision on her part, no matter the circumstances, but it was not a line I am willing to divorce over, this time.


----------



## Blondilocks

ConanHub said:


> Be fair now. I'm among the numbers of TAM men that do not defend porn use or strippers for men, or women for that matter.:wink2:


Conan, dammit, you're taking all of the fun out of generalizing.:grin2:


----------



## samyeagar

Tilted 1 said:


> So Sam,,.......... posting this in the coping with infidelity, can you please explain what it is you are seeking, from us fellow TAM members to help you with. Is this a rhetorical post or a advice/ guidance seeking post?


I find it personally valuable to have the questions asked by the forum that I may not have considered, and then processing my thoughts to answer them.


----------



## samyeagar

ConanHub said:


> I believe the groom got really wild. Golfing.....


The bachelor party was golfing, a baseball game, then lots of drinking out in the woods.


----------



## samyeagar

ConanHub said:


> I meant that usually someone with self respect doesn't pair with someone that disrespects their relationship unless it is an open one.
> 
> Does the door swing both ways? Is she fine with him getting all kinds of sexual attention short of intercourse?


Honestly, I think it is like a lot of kids that age that do not really understand boundaries, and don't really know when to drop a relationship. They would both rather get mad at the other person when they skirt the line, then complain to their friends, get told everyone behaves that way now a days, and it really isn't a huge deal, make up, wash rinse, repeat until they are about ten years older with kids, and either get their crap together and act like adults, or end up divorced...


----------



## Blondilocks

samyeagar said:


> The bachelor party was golfing, a baseball game, then lots of drinking out in the woods.


Because what happens in the woods stays in the woods.:wink2: 

I'm sure it's much more manly to get falling-down, ****-faced drunk in the woods than in the family room.


----------



## samyeagar

BioFury said:


> While I can appreciate what you're saying, I don't think rubbing your butt on a random guys penis is acceptable behavior for a woman in a relationship to engage in, in any circle. Self-selected marriage gurus or otherwise.
> 
> Has your daughter's fiance, and your brother in law, been told about the things that happened?


Daughter told him Sunday night when he got home, after she and my wife talked. About all I know as far as specifics of their conversation is that it did not go well. The external wedding plans have not changed, but they are sort of in an internal holding pattern at the moment. Not that I thought that he would but I had to make sure...he did not become physically violent.


----------



## SunCMars

samyeagar said:


> I don't think he has self esteem issues. He is 24 and *she is quite attractive*.


And there it is....the answer.

Beauty blinds the young, the old look past it, or should.

When her beauty fades, as it always does, one hopes any inner beauty she has will find its place, its tongue, its favor.

The thing is....

The world puts those having beauty a good number of rungs higher than the rest.
The thin air up there causes the lucky few to get dizzy, maybe becoming arrogant, and to lose true perspective.

Some time later, many lose their step, they end up falling from that greater height. It hurts more than falling off some lower, common rung.

Many never recover. 

How could they?

Luck, not talent put them....up there.

May luck keep her there, for your sake.



KB-


----------



## Marduk

samyeagar said:


> Yeah, my wife and I talked a lot about this, and I do believe it stopped with that. This was the big elephant in the room...
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, I think my wife was entirely beyond her element with this between the club environment, amount of alcohol consumed, singles company, and group IQ drop. Perfect storm that had never really happened since we have been together, and is unlike any situation she is likely to be in again. It was also very out of character for her, in that when she and her friends get together, they are usually at one of their houses, truly girls only. When they go out anywhere it is usually to a place like Starbucks, or lunch at the local Mexican restaurant for chips and salsa, tacos, and margaritas. I honestly can't remember the last time she went out to a bar or any place like that without me.
> 
> 
> 
> It was a spectacularly bad decision on her part, no matter the circumstances, but it was not a line I am willing to divorce over, this time.



My gut is telling me that all this is too convenient. 

Group think is a thing, to be sure. I’ve certainly seen the painful groups of men or women on boys or girls trips on holidays acting like they’re not married and off the leash. 

I’m not saying she did more, I’m saying my gut is telling me that there’s more to what she’s open to in the right context than you might think. 

We heavily manage the perception our spouse has of us, consciously or not. I’m wondering if hers is a little more conscious than you are willing to contemplate right now. 

I’m not saying to grill her. I’m not saying to divorce her. I am saying that you should contemplate your relationship and her past behaviour with an objective lens, and perhaps make her marriage a little less easy for a while. 

Because at the end of the day, she danced a pretty fine line here, and she did it because she wanted to - even if that wanting to was wanting to fit in. 

And she sure turned a blind eye to the actions of others around her. 

To me, those two things mean a lot. Counterbalanced by her willingness to draw a line and her willingness to tell you about it all of course.


----------



## Marduk

samyeagar said:


> The bachelor party was golfing, a baseball game, then lots of drinking out in the woods.




Ok. 

I’m calling it. That marriage is going to be troubled.


----------



## Marduk

samyeagar said:


> Daughter told him Sunday night when he got home, after she and my wife talked. About all I know as far as specifics of their conversation is that it did not go well. The external wedding plans have not changed, but they are sort of in an internal holding pattern at the moment. Not that I thought that he would but I had to make sure...he did not become physically violent.




Be prepared to answer questions if he should ask you details. 

I’m certain she candy coated most of it.


----------



## TDSC60

Marduk said:


> Be prepared to answer questions if he should ask you details.
> 
> I’m certain she candy coated most of it.


If I remember correctly, his mother was there also. He will get all the gory details from her.


----------



## BioFury

samyeagar said:


> Daughter told him Sunday night when he got home, after she and my wife talked. About all I know as far as specifics of their conversation is that it did not go well. The external wedding plans have not changed, but they are sort of in an internal holding pattern at the moment. Not that I thought that he would but I had to make sure...he did not become physically violent.


I don't think you could blame him had he done so. He's presumably invested years of his life in your daughter, as well as his emotional well-being. She then has the gall to piss all over that, by engaging in premeditated debauchery, and thinking nothing of it?


----------



## samyeagar

Marduk said:


> My gut is telling me that all this is too convenient.
> 
> Group think is a thing, to be sure. I’ve certainly seen the painful groups of men or women on boys or girls trips on holidays acting like they’re not married and off the leash.
> 
> I’m not saying she did more, I’m saying my gut is telling me that there’s more to what she’s open to in the right context than you might think.
> 
> We heavily manage the perception our spouse has of us, consciously or not. I’m wondering if hers is a little more conscious than you are willing to contemplate right now.
> 
> I’m not saying to grill her. I’m not saying to divorce her. I am saying that you should contemplate your relationship and her past behaviour with an objective lens, and perhaps make her marriage a little less easy for a while.
> 
> Because at the end of the day, she danced a pretty fine line here, and she did it because she wanted to - even if that wanting to was wanting to fit in.
> 
> And she sure turned a blind eye to the actions of others around her.
> 
> To me, those two things mean a lot. Counterbalanced by her willingness to draw a line and her willingness to tell you about it all of course.


Of course she wanted to do it, although she couldn't quite put it in those exact words, I did it for her, and she didn't make excuses.

I am not going to grill her or anything, but I am pretty patient and observant, and my wife does not hide her phone, or hide her talking, so over the next few weeks, I'll be able to form a clearer picture of things.



Marduk said:


> Ok.
> 
> I’m calling it. That marriage is going to be troubled.


I think that is likely if they both don't grow up in a hurry. He has his issues that could be very damaging to a relationship as well.



Marduk said:


> Be prepared to answer questions if he should ask you details.
> 
> I’m certain she candy coated most of it.


Oh, I am not going to cover for anyone should my input be sought.


----------



## Ursula

samyeagar said:


> That's just it. If I was the groom to be, I would end things with this, in large part because I could not be partners with someone who makes such poor choices, and engages in such reckless behaviour. From everything my wife could tell, no clothing was removed, no direct genital to genital contact, just heavy grinding that in some cases ended with the guy filling his swimsuit, and it's not clear if my daughter took any of the guys that far, so... this is one of those things with the muddy grey in between area where there are vastly different opinions and boundaries on what actually constitutes cheating sever enough to end the relationship. For me, this was all clearly beyond what I personally tolerate, but I acknowledge that others have different thresholds.


So throughout any of the early grinding sessions, did your wife not think to pull her daughter to the side and say something to the effect of: “what the hell are you doing; you’re about to get married”. I mean, I get that your daughter is a grown woman and can make her own decisions, but it sounds like she wasn’t quite capable of doing that on that weekend. I’ve never understood parties like that.


----------



## Marduk

TDSC60 said:


> If I remember correctly, his mother was there also. He will get all the gory details from her.




He might get all the details from her. He also might not. It’s her daughter, after all.

He should be prepared to be very detailed if his future son in law wants answers.


----------



## Deejo

samyeagar said:


> He has his issues that could be very damaging to a relationship as well.


In light of all of the 'poor guy' sentiments that have sort of popped up as the group-think in this thread, I was sitting here wondering, "We know nothing about this guy ... he could be a complete asshat." Your post about being glad he didn't become violent was telling.

I don't know man, what any of us here know we can bank on, is the fact that humans are flawed creatures. The flaws run a riotously huge spectrum. I hope the kids sort it out ... one way or the other. A bad marriage is a hell of a learning experience that anyone that can be spared, should be spared.


----------



## personofinterest

BioFury said:


> I don't think you could blame him had he done so. He's presumably invested years of his life in your daughter, as well as his emotional well-being. She then has the gall to piss all over that, by engaging in premeditated debauchery, and thinking nothing of it?


Because physical violence is okay....

sheesh


----------



## personofinterest

24 years old is old enough to have a full time career, old enough to drink, old enough to vote, old enough to choose to spend your life with someone.

24 years old is CERTAINLY old enough to know better than to do these things.


----------



## syhoybenden

personofinterest said:


> 24 years old is old enough to have a full time career, old enough to drink, old enough to vote, old enough to choose to spend your life with someone.
> 
> 24 years old SHOULD BE old enough to know better than to do these things.


Couldn't resist a minor edit.


----------



## Lostinthought61

it will be interesting once everyone is together at the wedding what will come out about everyone's behavior...there maybe some divorces that come out of this.


----------



## BioFury

personofinterest said:


> Because physical violence is okay....
> 
> sheesh


Lol no, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who's ever thought an individual needed some sense slapped into them. Or deserved a good spanking >


----------



## samyeagar

Deejo said:


> In light of all of the 'poor guy' sentiments that have sort of popped up as the group-think in this thread, I was sitting here wondering, "We know nothing about this guy ... he could be a complete asshat." Your post about being glad he didn't become violent was telling.
> 
> I don't know man, what any of us here know we can bank on, is the fact that humans are flawed creatures. The flaws run a riotously huge spectrum. I hope the kids sort it out ... one way or the other. A bad marriage is a hell of a learning experience that anyone that can be spared, should be spared.


He's a decent guy, not perfect, but nobody is. There was no specific reason to be concerned or suspect he could be violent, but that was one of those bases I wanted to make sure was covered. One of his big issues is dropping large sums of money on things without talking to her, such as her coming home from work only to find that he bought a $7,000 dollar boat.


----------



## lucy999

samyeagar said:


> He's a decent guy, not perfect, but nobody is. There was no specific reason to be concerned or suspect he could be violent, but that was one of those bases I wanted to make sure was covered. One of his big issues is dropping large sums of money on things without talking to her, such as her coming home from work only to find that he bought a $7,000 dollar boat.


Oh, dear.

I fear for this union. Both parties have a ****ton to learn.


----------



## Malaise

personofinterest said:


> 24 years old is old enough to have a full time career, old enough to drink, old enough to vote, old enough to choose to spend your life with someone.
> 
> 24 years old is CERTAINLY old enough to know better than to do these things.


She wanted to do it. That's all that mattered.


----------



## SunCMars

samyeagar said:


> He's a decent guy, not perfect, but nobody is. There was no specific reason to be concerned or suspect he could be violent, but that was one of those bases I wanted to make sure was covered. One of his big issues is dropping large sums of money on things without talking to her, such as her coming home from work only to find that he bought a $7,000 dollar boat.



Uh, no, $7K on a boat is not a lot of money! That is very inexpensive for most sea worthy boats. :grin2:
And he could sell it after a season or two, and recoup a good part of the money.

I get it though, that purchase should have been a shared decision. :|




KB-


----------



## MarriedTex

SunCMars said:


> Uh, no, $7K on a boat is not a lot of money! That is very inexpensive for most sea worthy boats. :grin2:
> And he could sell it after a season or two, and recoup a good part of the money.
> 
> I get it though, that purchase should have been a shared decision. :|
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KB-


Brings to mind the old axiom: What are the two best days of boat ownership?

1. The day you buy it and 2. The day you sell it.


----------



## Tilted 1

samyeagar said:


> Marduk said:
> 
> 
> 
> My gut is telling me that all this is too convenient.
> 
> Group think is a thing, to be sure. I’ve certainly seen the painful groups of men or women on boys or girls trips on holidays acting like they’re not married and off the leash.
> 
> I’m not saying she did more, I’m saying my gut is telling me that there’s more to what she’s open to in the right context than you might think.
> 
> Of course she wanted to do it, although she couldn't quite put it in those exact words, I did it for her, and she didn't make excuses.
> 
> I am not going to grill her or anything, but I am pretty patient and observant, and my wife does not hide her phone, or hide her talking, so over the next few weeks, I'll be able to form a clearer picture of things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well Sam, you do have a sure thing to mull over. If you want to know what your wife did?
> 
> Or for you to know that it maybe better for you not to know. And settle,for a life of compromise, and deny the reality of your marriage by not finding out exactly what occurred by asking ....... Your future mother-in-law.
> 
> It's your choice, l myself could not live with myself without knowing the unvarnished truth. But that's me. I expect you will just redirect and deflect the response to this post.
> 
> Again not attacking you, or what you are able to endure. Just know you are setting an example for your daughter to follow in her possible future marriage.
Click to expand...


----------



## Tilted 1

samyeagar said:


> Deejo said:
> 
> 
> 
> In light of all of the 'poor guy' sentiments that have sort of popped up as the group-think in this thread, I was sitting here wondering, "We know nothing about this guy ... he could be a complete asshat." Your post about being glad he didn't become violent was telling.
> 
> I don't know man, what any of us here know we can bank on, is the fact that humans are flawed creatures. The flaws run a riotously huge spectrum. I hope the kids sort it out ... one way or the other. A bad marriage is a hell of a learning experience that anyone that can be spared, should be spared.
> 
> 
> 
> He's a decent guy, not perfect, but nobody is. There was no specific reason to be concerned or suspect he could be violent, but that was one of those bases I wanted to make sure was covered. One of his big issues is dropping large sums of money on things without talking to her, such as her coming home from work only to find that he bought a $7,000 dollar boat.
Click to expand...

Are they already living together? If not just maybe he knows what not the future holds, and wanted a stable hobby, that his future wife could sunbathe, and be with him if she did not like to fish.

I know of alot worse hobbies that are indulgence and cost money or someone's else's sanity. Just saying.


----------



## ConanHub

BioFury said:


> Lol no, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who's ever thought an individual needed some sense slapped into them. Or deserved a good spanking >


You know I had to like this just because of "spanking"!>


----------



## Openminded

How much of this might be due to the way your wife, with her own boundary issues, brought up your step-daughter vs. how much is simply your step-daughter's personality and it wouldn't have mattered even if your wife had been a very strict mom?


----------



## ABHale

Marduk said:


> He might get all the details from her. He also might not. It’s her daughter, after all.
> 
> He should be prepared to be very detailed if his future son in law wants answers.


Both moms were there


----------



## Gabriel

samyeagar said:


> Pretty much all of the married or committed ones ventured firmly into that area between inappropriate, and disrespectful, to downright divorce worthy. Some went further than others, and some all the way.


I'm confused. Later you go on to say nobody was penetrated, they were doing a lot of grinding, body shots, etc.

And you also described a man "getting relieved", which I took to mean finishing in his pants. Um, what guy finishes like that with pants still on? Especially with alcohol in their system which curbs that biological function?

The information here is vague and inconsistent. If girls are just grinding on the dance floor, maybe it's not "appropriate" but it's certainly not uncommon for a bachelorette party - SOME leeway can be granted here. Guys have strippers and get lap dances. Is this really different? Seems you need to get EXACT information before deciding just how terrible all this was.


----------



## syhoybenden

ABHale said:


> Both moms were there


Is TAM making me too cynical?

Why can't I help seeing this with a jaded eye?


----------



## Rubix Cubed

Tilted 1 said:


> Well Sam, you do have a sure thing to mull over. If you want to know what your wife did?
> 
> Or for you to know that it maybe better for you not to know. And settle,for a life of compromise, and deny the reality of your marriage by not finding out exactly what occurred by asking ....... Your *future mother-in-law*.
> 
> It's your choice, l myself could not live with myself without knowing the unvarnished truth. But that's me. I expect you will just redirect and deflect the response to this post.
> 
> Again not attacking you, or what you are able to endure. Just know you are setting an example for your daughter to follow in her possible future marriage.


 I agree, with the correction that it is Sam's daughter's future mother in law (DFMIL) not Sam's, but Sam should ask her what went down. To be honest though, I expect she'd cover for Sam's wife if in fact she did do more than she has confessed to. Although if he asked DFMIL if his wife did anything questionable and the DFMIL doesn't mention the body shot he knows she's covering and he'll also know what kind of people his daughter is getting as an extended family. Seems like a win/win.


----------



## Tiggy!

Your daughters future MIL was at the bachelorette party, wouldn't she have told her son any inappropriate things your daughter did ?


----------



## syhoybenden

One would hope.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Tilted 1 said:


> Well Sam, you do have a sure thing to mull over. If you want to know what your wife did?
> 
> Or for you to know that it maybe better for you not to know. And settle,for a life of compromise, and deny the reality of your marriage by not finding out exactly what occurred by asking ....... Your future mother-in-law.
> 
> It's your choice, l myself could not live with myself without knowing the unvarnished truth. But that's me. I expect you will just redirect and deflect the response to this post.
> 
> Again not attacking you, or what you are able to endure. Just know you are setting an example for your daughter to follow in her possible future marriage.




Just won’t let this go, will you... Sam knows his wife, we don’t. After reading his posts over the years I have faith enough in him and their relationship to trust his judgment. If he feels he has the truth, then good enough. If his gut is still talking to him, he’ll take care of it. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tilted 1

3Xnocharm said:


> Tilted 1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well Sam, you do have a sure thing to mull over. If you want to know what your wife did?
> 
> Or for you to know that it maybe better for you not to know. And settle,for a life of compromise, and deny the reality of your marriage by not finding out exactly what occurred by asking ....... Your future mother-in-law.
> 
> It's your choice, l myself could not live with myself without knowing the unvarnished truth. But that's me. I expect you will just redirect and deflect the response to this post.
> 
> Again not attacking you, or what you are able to endure. Just know you are setting an example for your daughter to follow in her possible future marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> Just won’t let this go, will you... Sam knows his wife, we don’t. After reading his posts over the years I have faith enough in him and their relationship to trust his judgment. If he feels he has the truth, then good enough. If his gut is still talking to him, he’ll take care of it.
Click to expand...

You know sometimes...... sometimes more than 1 or 2 encouraging post maybe give the OP, strength and courage to go beyond what he/she would do. And as far as you reading him over the years means almost zip when new problems he or she is experiencing or may arise in their lives. 

I dare say, almost all living people doing something they we're fearful or unsure of needed on more than one nudge or reinforcement to over come an occasion.

As l was giving the OP my best advice, and not to you or other poster. Is why you believe that l am uncaring or vengeful, l am not nor is it my intent.


----------



## samyeagar

Gabriel said:


> I'm confused. Later you go on to say nobody was penetrated, they were doing a lot of grinding, body shots, etc.
> 
> And you also described a man "getting relieved", which I took to mean finishing in his pants. Um, what guy finishes like that with pants still on? Especially with alcohol in their system which curbs that biological function?
> 
> The information here is vague and inconsistent. If girls are just grinding on the dance floor, maybe it's not "appropriate" but it's certainly not uncommon for a bachelorette party - SOME leeway can be granted here. Guys have strippers and get lap dances. Is this really different? Seems you need to get EXACT information before deciding just how terrible all this was.


The girls seemed to know and were bragging about what they had managed to get the guys to do. They could have been mistaken, but they thought they had accomplished something, so at that point, it is pretty academic whether they actually did or not.

Part of the point, and the problem here...this kind of behaviour is not really all that unusual, and for many, is almost an expectation simply because they have heard that it is not unusual.

As far as the whole guys have strippers and lapdances, so what? It doesn't matter what some other guy in Oklahoma does when it comes to what is acceptable for some woman to do in New York. And vice versa.


----------



## turnera

samyeagar said:


> My wife and her circle of friends do enjoy discussing and admiring the male form, which I do generally find distasteful, but they have generally solid boundaries when it comes to actual interactions.
> 
> My daughter on the other hand is a 24 year old women, and her friends are the same age, and this type of behaviour is likely the norm because of the complete obliviousness to anything being wrong in the moment. Only questioned after the fact when faced with possible consequences.


Bit of a double standard in this world, huh? 

Sounds to me like your wife was pretty damn admirable about the whole situation. What was she supposed to do, go sit in a corner the whole weekend? Scold them? 

And if you're unhappy about the amount of housework you do, say something.


----------



## Blondilocks

It seems the idea of teaching girls how to comport themselves like a lady in public has gone by the wayside. Maybe, even the term 'lady' is sniggered at.


----------



## samyeagar

Rubix Cubed said:


> I agree, with the correction that it is Sam's daughter's future mother in law (DFMIL) not Sam's, but Sam should ask her what went down. To be honest though, I expect she'd cover for Sam's wife if in fact she did do more than she has confessed to. Although if he asked DFMIL if his wife did anything questionable and the DFMIL doesn't mention the body shot he knows she's covering and he'll also know what kind of people his daughter is getting as an extended family. Seems like a win/win.


I don't think I would get a straight answer from any of the lot of them, so I don't think I'd gain much poking around that way. I am just going to keep eyes and ears open for a while here, because as well as I know a few of the women involved, it will be talked about, and probably conflated beyond what it was...their equivalent to a fish story.


----------



## azimuth

Wild partying in that way has been around for several decades. It's not just "what kids do today." It's a choice for the person whether they want to do that or not. When I was 18-22 and single I did some wild partying at Myrtle Beach, this was 20 years ago. So it's not a generational thing, and it's not accepted as normal to behave that way when you're about to commit your life to someone - back then or now.

The concept of respect and marriage vows haven't changed from 10-20 years ago. When I met my future husband at age 24 I stopped partying and decided to grow up. I also gave up playing poker with this group of guy friends I was playing with. I did that out of respect because I was in a relationship with someone I loved. It's just personal growth. Part of being married is growing together and not doing juvenile things anymore and having adult responsibilities.

I'm sure your daughter's fiance knew how she was going to behave at the party. He's probably not surprised to hear what happened. Between themselves, maybe they've worked that out and it's something they can live with for now. In 10 years if she's still acting this way he may not want to deal with it.


----------



## Tilted 1

samyeagar said:


> Rubix Cubed said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, with the correction that it is Sam's daughter's future mother in law (DFMIL) not Sam's, but Sam should ask her what went down. To be honest though, I expect she'd cover for Sam's wife if in fact she did do more than she has confessed to. Although if he asked DFMIL if his wife did anything questionable and the DFMIL doesn't mention the body shot he knows she's covering and he'll also know what kind of people his daughter is getting as an extended family. Seems like a win/win.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I would get a straight answer from any of the lot of them, so I don't think I'd gain much poking around that way. I am just going to keep eyes and ears open for a while here, because as well as I know a few of the women involved, it will be talked about, and probably conflated beyond what it was...their equivalent to a fish story.
Click to expand...

Yes, l can see the point,


----------



## samyeagar

turnera said:


> Bit of a double standard in this world, huh?
> 
> Sounds to me like your wife was pretty damn admirable about the whole situation. *What was she supposed to do, go sit in a corner the whole weekend? Scold them*?
> 
> And if you're unhappy about the amount of housework you do, say something.



Double standards exist for sure, but beyond a point of discussion, the only standards that matter are the ones set within the relationship. Using that kind of rationale reminds me of kid trying the old "But all the other kids are doing it" line...

As to what she should have done, and your suggestion...that is some very black and white thinking there. Not every choice has to be an either or, at the extremes. There are any number of things that could be done for fun, even at the club, that did not involve actively seeking the attention and company of other men, but I don't think they were interested in just any kind of fun.

I do think my wife handled herself far better than she could have, but not nearly as well as she could have.


----------



## Marc878

Unless you're just getting damage control. Hopefully not


----------



## Marduk

turnera said:


> Bit of a double standard in this world, huh?
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds to me like your wife was pretty damn admirable about the whole situation. What was she supposed to do, go sit in a corner the whole weekend? Scold them?
> 
> 
> 
> And if you're unhappy about the amount of housework you do, say something.



I can only say what I would have done as a man if I was there with my son on his bachelor’s party. 

I would have informed everyone that I was leaving, likely in a contentious way like giving a toast that said FU to everyone there. I would have informed my son that if he wants his father to believe he has any integrity whatsoever and wants me to support his marriage, he should do the same. 

And if his fiancee’s father was there being inappropriate, I would have told him that any merging of our two families would be off the table, as I no longer held him in any kind of esteem. 

And then I’d go home, pick up the phone, and just tell all the spouses and fiancées what was going on, and that it was now their problem. 

I am not saying that’s what she should have done. I’m saying that’s what I would have done.


----------



## wilson

samyeagar said:


> Part of the point, and the problem here...this kind of behaviour is not really all that unusual, and for many, is almost an expectation simply because they have heard that it is not unusual.


Unless your daughter was the ringleader and manipulated everyone into doing all this stuff, I don't think it's fair to put all the blame on her. Did she force the married women to leave their wedding rings at home and demand they accept drinks from single guys? Likely everyone was doing stuff and little escalations were happening all over the place. I'm getting the sense this is somewhat normal behavior for pre-wedding parties in that community if everyone was involved with it to that level. If she grew up with the parties all being like this, having attended many herself for her engaged friends, and it was generally understood that this is what goes on at the parties, then I don't necessarily see it as a moral failing. Sure it would have been better if she took a stand and shut it all down, but I can't really fault her for having that kind of party if that's the typical pre-wedding party in her community.

It's kind of the same way how some people are okay with pre-martial sex while others think it's a terrible sin. Which is it? It's both. It just depends on your moral foundation and how you were raised.


----------



## Middle of Everything

Discussions of future SiL and his faults? REALLY?

What was he wearing? Probably asking for it. (See if some understand what Im getting at here)

Jesus H, I used to be put in my place for saying stupid **** on TAM. And it helped me in my relationship with my wife. Now? He's not perfect either. He's got his faults? REALLY?


----------



## Rubix Cubed

Are the quotes attributed to the wrong poster for everyone, or is it just me?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

personofinterest said:


> 24 years old is old enough to have a full time career, old enough to drink, old enough to vote, old enough to choose to spend your life with someone.
> 
> 24 years old is CERTAINLY old enough to know better than to do these things.





TDSC60 said:


> I think it will all come to a head when the groom's mother tells him about his future bride's behavior.
> 
> Or maybe not, if he had a lap dance at his bachelor party.
> 
> What I can't get over is the daughter you raised urging her Mom to do body shots with the guys in the bar.


Well, you have to look at the source. His wife has some different boundaries, it is completely plausible the daughter didn't completely realize the line. For some people, a lap dance is okay. Same with grinding on the dance floor.


samyeagar said:


> The whole hiding or removing rings for free drinks was a point of contention between my wife and I, because I saw it as very wrong, while she thought it was harmless, so long as the line beyond free drink was not crossed, and it ended with the drinks. My wife and I have had many discussions about patterns and clusters of behaviour, and if one is there, likely others are too. Theses things don't happen in a vacuum. My sister in law made my point in a very obvious way, and my wife now understands.


This is/was her mom's thinking. 

Seriously, if she heard or learned this from her mother, it is not surprising at all. 
Her mom did the bodyshot.
She's knows her mom is married and was allowed to go, I know Sam isn't his wife's keeper. 
Her mom crossed a line as well.

Another man touched mom clothed, it must be okay.


If people are using the age argument, let's also discuss learned behavior. I mean a green light from a parent is a huge lift to overcoming any hurdle. Nope, not condoning the behavior, just pointing out it may be learned and unwiitingly approved.


----------



## Blondilocks

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Well, you have to look at the source. His wife has some different boundaries, it is completely plausible the daughter didn't completely realize the line. For some people, a lap dance is okay. Same with grinding on the dance floor.
> 
> This is/was her mom's thinking.
> 
> Seriously, if she heard or learned this from her mother, it is not surprising at all.
> Her mom did the bodyshot.
> She's knows her mom is married and was allowed to go, I know Sam isn't his wife's keeper.
> Her mom crossed a line as well.
> 
> *Another man touched mom clothed, it must be okay.*
> 
> 
> If people are using the age argument, let's also discuss learned behavior. I mean a green light from a parent is a huge lift to overcoming any hurdle. Nope, not condoning the behavior, just pointing out it may be learned and unwiitingly approved.


As I read it, Mom and the abs&pecs guy were in swim suits.


----------



## Lila

Rubix Cubed said:


> Are the quotes attributed to the wrong poster for everyone, or is it just me?


That's weird. I don't know why it won't show the correct quote. Maybe delete Samyeager's quote and see if the correct one shows up.


----------



## MattMatt

Wrong quotes appearing? Please report this and other technical issues here https://talkaboutmarriage.com/technical-difficulties/


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Blondilocks said:


> As I read it, Mom and the abs&pecs guy were in swim suits.


Yes, "clothed" in swimsuits.

As in the discussion earlier of grinding and no PIV sex. Similar acts and similar actions.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MattMatt said:


> Wrong quotes appearing? Please report this and other technical issues here https://talkaboutmarriage.com/technical-difficulties/


It is a poster issue Matt. When someone takes a quote and adds or removes a bracket it'll screw up the quote function.

At least that's what I saw happening.


----------



## MattMatt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It is a poster issue Matt. When someone takes a quote and adds or removes a bracket it'll screw up the quote function.
> 
> At least that's what I saw happening.


That's actually what I suspected, too!


----------



## Rubix Cubed

MattMatt said:


> Wrong quotes appearing? Please report this and other technical issues here https://talkaboutmarriage.com/technical-difficulties/


 Done and dusted.


----------



## EleGirl

I just got done fixing the mismatched quotes. Basically some posters were adding, removing and splitting quote brackets. It took a while to clean up manually as there is no automatic, or software based, way to do this.


----------



## stillthinking

Sam,

While you wait to see how this plays out I wanted to circle back to this...



> my wife declined and started showing people pictures of my body, that she had better at home, and not only that, but if she asked me to have a bottle of chilled wine and a bubble bath ready for her when she got home, she had no doubt that I would. And she wasn't wanting to screw that up. My visceral reaction to things like that is not necessarily one of anger, rather it is to shut down sexually, which can be just as bad for the relationship.
> 
> The part about my body, that was good, but damn, I had a pretty harsh internal reflex reaction to the whole bubble bath and wine part, and in less than a second, it all just flashed that I cook, clean, laundry, sew, bake, and I know it wasn't her intent, but the term man servant came to mind.


So she didn't go further because you are such a good house husband? Is that her explanation? Not that she is a married woman and its disrespectful to her husband?

Do you think your wife views you as her man servant? 

And if you do all that, what does she do?


----------



## Rubix Cubed

> my wife declined and started showing people pictures of my body, that she had better at home, and not only that, but if she asked me to have a bottle of chilled wine and a bubble bath ready for her when she got home, she had no doubt that I would. And she wasn't wanting to screw that up. My visceral reaction to things like that is not necessarily one of anger, rather it is to shut down sexually, which can be just as bad for the relationship.
> 
> The part about my body, that was good, but damn, I had a pretty harsh internal reflex reaction to the whole bubble bath and wine part, and in less than a second, it all just flashed that I cook, clean, laundry, sew, bake, and I know it wasn't her intent, but the term man servant came to mind.


 And while we are on this. Why didn't she do that same thing before letting some guy slurp liquor out of her bellybutton? Which also leads me to wonder if she has ever let you do that or if she would have if you asked? 
Just the thought of some absolute stranger poking his tongue around inside *YOUR* wife's navel pisses *me* the **** off. 
Gee, I wonder what the whole representation/connotation of that act represents.


----------



## jlg07

One comment: There seems to be some consensus that "that age" that this sort of thing is normal/acceptable.
NOT TRUE -- my son is 26 and even at 24 he NEVER would have condoned doing stuff like this. None of his friends are like that either, nor his gf.

This is acceptable ONLY to those who don't respect themselves or their partner and have really poor or no boundaries in their own life. Just once again shows the devaluing of things that were once thought important.


----------



## personofinterest

jlg07 said:


> One comment: There seems to be some consensus that "that age" that this sort of thing is normal/acceptable.
> NOT TRUE -- my son is 26 and even at 24 he NEVER would have condoned doing stuff like this. None of his friends are like that either, nor his gf.
> 
> This is acceptable ONLY to those who don't respect themselves or their partner and have really poor or no boundaries in their own life. Just once again shows the devaluing of things that were once thought important.


 Exactly! Since when is 24 years old a kid??? And don't give me that BS about brain development.


----------



## SunCMars

Blondilocks said:


> As I read it, Mom and the *abs&pecs* guy were in swim suits.


In truth....

For added humor, I must add:

abs and pecs and speedo covered pecker. 

All showing, some having muscled definition.


Sorry!


We wee people can be wicked! :grin2:


Just Sayin'



KB-


----------



## CraigBesuden

This behavior is inappropriate. I won’t say it’s “unacceptable” because future SIL will probably accept it, and I hate when people accept things while calling them unacceptable.

Although my bachelor party did include a strip club, my future FIL and my wife’s grandfather were there. Nothing like that went on.

This is really between the bride and groom. (And the wives present and their spouses.) If bad behavior is accepted at these parties, then it’s their choice.


----------



## samyeagar

stillthinking said:


> Sam,
> 
> While you wait to see how this plays out I wanted to circle back to this...
> 
> 
> 
> So she didn't go further because you are such a good house husband? Is that her explanation? Not that she is a married woman and its disrespectful to her husband?
> 
> Do you think your wife views you as her man servant?
> 
> And if you do all that, what does she do?


This is my biggest sticking point, and the part I have not yet been able to fully process. I get what she was trying to say, and she poorly chose some of the words, but at the same time, there is often a kernel of truth in misspeaks. She was trying to convey that she thought not only am I attractive, but I am also attentive, and not a lazy git. But no, it did not come off that way to me.

I don't think she views me as her man servant, and I don't think she takes me for granted per se, but this did show me that maybe she is a bit too comfortable in her willingness to have me do things for her.


----------



## samyeagar

Rubix Cubed said:


> And while we are on this. Why didn't she do that same thing before letting some guy slurp liquor out of her bellybutton? Which also leads me to wonder if she has ever let you do that or if she would have if you asked?
> Just the thought of some absolute stranger poking his tongue around inside *YOUR* wife's navel pisses *me* the **** off.
> Gee, I wonder what the whole representation/connotation of that act represents.


And this is another sticking point for me. And one we have talked about a few times. And one that she is now on notice that I will divorce if anything similar happens again.

As to whether she would ever let me do things like this...well, yes. She would. There really isn't anything off the table.


----------



## dreamer2017

Dear Samyeagar,

Are you sure your wife is telling you the entire story? Is it possible she went far beyond what she is telling you? I don't think her story is adding up.

Best,
Dreamer


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

samyeagar said:


> This is my biggest sticking point, and the part I have not yet been able to fully process. I get what she was trying to say, and she poorly chose some of the words, but at the same time, there is often a kernel of truth in misspeaks. She was trying to convey that she thought not only am I attractive, but I am also attentive, and not a lazy git. But no, it did not come off that way to me.
> 
> I don't think she views me as her man servant, and* I don't think she takes me for granted per se*, but this did show me that maybe she is a bit too comfortable in her willingness to have me do things for her.


OP,

Anytime one has to say "per se", that's exactly what happened. 

Hang in there man.


----------



## Tilted 1

From Sam, " I don't think she views me as her man servant, and I don't think she takes me for granted per se, but this did show me that maybe she is a bit too comfortable in her willingness to have me do things for her" 



Yes, this says alot to me as well. I'm on your side Sam. But as earlier you told us you possibly couldn't find and get the truth from the groom's mother. Is it possible because you are on the proverbial leash, and pushed aside (nicely or course, but nonetheless pushed aside). So l do agree with you that you wouldn't be told the truth. You'll will have to wait until someone spill's the bean.


----------



## Openminded

You were concerned about that trip long before it happened -- with good reason. From previous threads, your wife has never appeared to have very good boundaries. Your stepdaughter is following in her mom's footsteps. No surprise there.


----------



## MyRevelation

So, is this farce of a wedding still on?

Has no one stepped up and warned the groom what he’s about to marry?


----------



## personofinterest

MyRevelation said:


> So, is this farce of a wedding still on?
> 
> Has no one stepped up and warned the groom what he’s about to marry?


That's what I'm wondering


----------



## Dyokemm

personofinterest said:


> 24 years old is old enough to have a full time career, old enough to drink, old enough to vote, old enough to choose to spend your life with someone.
> 
> 24 years old is CERTAINLY old enough to know better than to do these things.


Absolutely correct.....

At 24 years of age I was a division officer in the Navy responsible for the Gunnery Division on my ship and directing the fire of those 5” guns during fire missions/combat situations.

I doubt the government would have entrusted those responsibilities to me if 24 year olds were immature a**hats incapable of rational and detached decision making.

I think nearly 30 years of ‘helicopter’ parenting has left many people with a distorted view of how much young adults should be held accountable for their sh*tty choices.


----------



## sokillme

samyeagar said:


> As to whether she would ever let me do things like this...well, yes. She would. There really isn't anything off the table.


This never sits well with me for a few reasons. 

It definitely explains why they can do it as it's not a big deal to them, but it IS a big deal to me because it's disrespectful. My question would be why don't they get that? I would want to be married to someone with the same morals as me when it comes to this. If anything it would worry me because it's just a sign that they don't get the whole loyalty thing. 

In some twisted way I think they think this is a good thing, and maybe to some it is but it wouldn't be to me.


----------



## heartsbeating

I've only read the first page... yuck.


----------



## BruceBanner

samyeagar said:


> Well, my daughters bachelorette weekend away is over. My wife and I had a few texts over the course of the weekend, and she called me Saturday night from the club they were all at and we talked for a few minutes. Things seemed to be going alright, or as well as they can be when trying to herd cats.
> 
> There were 11 of them, nine were either married or in committed relationships, five over 35. They all met at my wife's sisters house, and then carpooled the four hours drive from there. A bit after their checkout time, and time they were starting to head home, I got the following text from my wife
> 
> "Is it OK if I call you after I leave my sisters? Things went rather downhill rather quickly after I talked to you last night, & I don't want to wait till I get home to talk to you"
> 
> So we talked.
> 
> Group IQ drop had kicked in. Poor choices were made. Lines were crossed.
> 
> Pretty much all of the married or committed ones ventured firmly into that area between inappropriate, and disrespectful, to downright divorce worthy. Some went further than others, and some all the way.
> 
> The Friday night stripper wasn't the issue. It was the Saturday swim up bar clubs starting before noon, drinking until they closed with hundreds of people in the skimpiest swim attire they could manage.
> 
> My wife had stopped drinking after the lunch time club because she decided to be a designated driver to help cut down on the extremely expensive Uber costs. She was able to take five in her car, leaving six that still needed to take an Uber, and just for perspective, a peak hour Uber that seats six to take them the 20 miles back to the condo...$285. But I digress.
> 
> As far as my wife's contribution to the list of crossed lines, the bride to be convinced her to let some dude with amazing ad and pecks take a body shot out of my wife's navel, and when our daughter tried to get her to do it again with another guy at the night time club, my wife declined and started showing people pictures of my body, that she had better at home, and not only that, but if she asked me to have a bottle of chilled wine and a bubble bath ready for her when she got home, she had no doubt that I would. And she wasn't wanting to screw that up. My visceral reaction to things like that is not necessarily one of anger, rather it is to shut down sexually, which can be just as bad for the relationship.
> 
> The part about my body, that was good, but damn, I had a pretty harsh internal reflex reaction to the whole bubble bath and wine part, and in less than a second, it all just flashed that I cook, clean, laundry, sew, bake, and I know it wasn't her intent, but the term man servant came to mind. Again, I digress.
> 
> On the plus side, at least my wife left her wedding ring on, unlike some of the other women. Of course the rationalization is saving $50 on free drinks, but those kinds of things, and that mindset does not happen in a vacuum. It is one of actively seeking opposite sex attention from people other than one's partner. Doing it to save $50 my ass when you just dropped almost $300 for the ride to get there.
> 
> Now, there was not any actual skin to skin below the waist contact, but there are quite a few highly sexual things that can be done fully clothed on the dance floor, some that end up with the guy being relieved, and some of the girls were rather proud of themselves for being able to accomplish just that.
> 
> And of course the truth finally and fully came out of at least this group when my wife and the mother of the groom were trying to round them all up on this girls weekend bachelorette party...No, they should not go back to the guys they met's condo to keep drinking and partying. They could go back to their own and do that. But that's not where the boys are...
> 
> Some things were Snapchatted for all to see, but there some things that weren't. Those were the things my wife advised her daughter to tell her fiance, because he will no doubt hear about them in the next few weeks with all of these people being involved in the wedding, and many of them honestly believing that there was nothing inappropriate with what they were doing.
> 
> I think that was what upset my wife the most was really seeing some of these people for exactly who they are when left to make their own choices, and that so many lines were so easily and quickly crossed, and how this sort of chain of events happens. She'd never really seen it before, but I guess being with me for almost a decade, and being sober watching it brings a whole new perspective.


Situations such as these are why I think men who allow bachelorette parties are stupid.



Tiggy! said:


> Your daughters future MIL was at the bachelorette party, wouldn't she have told her son any inappropriate things your daughter did ?


Don't be so sure. I've heard of some parties where the MIL encourages this type of behavior.



samyeagar said:


> The bachelor party was golfing, a baseball game, then lots of drinking out in the woods.


Lol. That's exactly what I thought.



rugswept said:


> i'm starting to think a guy i knew was right,very long ago, when he said they're all w****s. that very well might be true there


Curious. Who was this guy you knew and what was the context of him saying that?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

sokillme said:


> This never sits well with me for a few reasons.
> 
> It definitely explains why they can do it as it's not a big deal to them, but it IS a big deal to me because it's disrespectful. My question would be why don't they get that? I would want to be married to someone with the same morals as me when it comes to this. If anything it would worry me because it's just a sign that they don't get the whole loyalty thing.
> 
> In some twisted way I think they think this is a good thing, and maybe to some it is but it wouldn't be to me.




I think he meant that his wife would let him do body shots off her, that nothing is off the table between them...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BruceBanner

Taxman said:


> I really really hate GNO's and bachelorette parties. I have DJ'ed some evenings, and I have seen groups go wild. My SIL tried conning my wife into a GNO at a cougar bar. When confronted, she admitted that she wanted to get my wife laid, so that I would disappear. (She took a massive amount of resentment, when I outed her as a thief and an abuser. My wife's family forgives, I try, but there are certain transgressions (she took from a disabled relative). The bachelorette story involves me peripherally. My son and I went to Vegas for his 21st birthday. Did all the male stuff. Was showing him my prowess at blackjack, when a bachelorette party passed our table. He noticed a purse that had fallen on the floor. He tells me he is going to return the purse. He comes back to me about five minutes later. The bachelorette party wanted to buy him a drink for being so gallant. I am already three sheets to the wind, and decide to return to our room to pass out. I noticed that I returned to the room at about 11. Drunken sleeps are usually not that long and at about 3 I awakened to find he had not returned. I awoke again at 8. He still was not back. At 9 he comes thru the door and collapses. So, asking not as a dad, who'd you end up with? He replies, I am a total bastard, I slept with the bride. That is why I am not for GNO's bachelorettes, girls only vacations etc. etc. etc. They look good on paper. Not in practice.


I was waiting for one of these type of stories to pop up.


----------



## sokillme

3Xnocharm said:


> I think he meant that his wife would let him do body shots off her, that nothing is off the table between them...
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh I see.


----------



## heartsbeating

samyeagar said:


> She has come forward with some pretty brutal truths which she knew had the potential to end our relationship. She generally does not pretty up the truth, and is kind of a hot take, stream of consciousness kind of person, so I do think it likely that she is being straight forward here.


Okay, so this could be opportunity for the wiser folks (such as yourself) around your daughter to provide guidance, if she is accepting of it.


----------



## heartsbeating

samyeagar said:


> These kinds of situations seem to happen with enough regularity to make them seem somewhat of a norm, or expectation, thus normalizing the behaviour, just not freeing the participants from the consequences.


You have a point here. When I went to a bachelorette many moons ago, started out fairly docile with a few drinks and games, then karaoke bar where a few guys started to circle but still innocent fun, then on to the strip-club and more drinks consumed. The married sister of bride-to-be went on stage and gave a crazy lap-dance to the stripper, body parts exposed, the crowd cheering her on. Okay, so that may be acceptable to them. This wasn't for me, and the funky smell in that place was off-putting, and I was actually kinda bored. So I called myself a taxi and exited. I was home having a cup of tea by midnight. This became a bit of a running joke among friends that 'hearts wants to get home for a cuppa..' I'm completely fine with being made fun of for that! I have partied in my time, not in that way, but been a DJ and had fun at clubs but I know my limits. Turns out, it got more wild on the party bus that returned them back to the hotel. The bride-to-be confessed to me that she had to remind herself '..don't put it in your mouth..' when things got up close and more available. 

I think it was fortunate that your wife was no longer drinking, and told you what occurred.


----------



## samyeagar

I'ts been kind of an off sort of week. I have felt a definite cooling towards my wife. Not really angry, or upset. I just see her a bit differently. I am pretty sure I got the whole story of what went on on the weekend away. My wife and I have had a few more conversations about it, no new details dropped, changed or anything

In the context of what went on at the bachelorette party, the few days she was away are in a different focus. It made me realize that not only did I not have any extra stuff to do since I was by myself, I actually had less busy crap to do and more time to do things for myself.

The wedding is still on, but my daughter has gotten kind of a rude awakening. Yes, you can behave how ever you want, you can make your own choices, no one can control you, but you have no right to demand others accept your actions, and have no say in how they react. She doesn't much like her fiance's random phone checks, doesn't like answering the same questions over and over. Doesn't like the snarky yet truthful comments. A number of pictures have been pulled from social media. For someone who is so damned smart to get their BSN in three years, she's got a lot to learn about life, and how actions have consequences. My wife and I have been supportive, both on the same page of "You reap what you sew", though my wife far more sensitive, me far more matter of fact.


----------



## oldtruck

samyeagar said:


> The wedding is still on, but my daughter has gotten kind of a rude awakening. Yes, you can behave how ever you want, you can make your own choices, no one can control you, but you have no right to demand others accept your actions, and have no say in how they react. She doesn't much like her fiance's random phone checks, doesn't like answering the same questions over and over. Doesn't like the snarky yet truthful comments. A number of pictures have been pulled from social media. For someone who is so damned smart to get their BSN in three years, she's got a lot to learn about life, and how actions have consequences. My wife and I have been supportive, both on the same page of "You reap what you sew", though my wife far more sensitive, me far more matter of fact.


Glad the future SIL has maned up and holding her accountable. Engage women and married women
only do belly shots at home with their partner. They do not put on free shows in public.


----------



## Music_Man

samyeagar said:


> I'ts been kind of an off sort of week. I have felt a definite cooling towards my wife. Not really angry, or upset. I just see her a bit differently. I am pretty sure I got the whole story of what went on on the weekend away. My wife and I have had a few more conversations about it, no new details dropped, changed or anything
> 
> 
> 
> In the context of what went on at the bachelorette party, the few days she was away are in a different focus. It made me realize that not only did I not have any extra stuff to do since I was by myself, I actually had less busy crap to do and more time to do things for myself.
> 
> 
> 
> The wedding is still on, but my daughter has gotten kind of a rude awakening. Yes, you can behave how ever you want, you can make your own choices, no one can control you, but you have no right to demand others accept your actions, and have no say in how they react. She doesn't much like her fiance's random phone checks, doesn't like answering the same questions over and over. Doesn't like the snarky yet truthful comments. A number of pictures have been pulled from social media. For someone who is so damned smart to get their BSN in three years, she's got a lot to learn about life, and how actions have consequences. My wife and I have been supportive, both on the same page of "You reap what you sew", though my wife far more sensitive, me far more matter of fact.


BSN? She's in the nursing/medical field? With her loose boundaries? 

Yikes! Man, have I got some stories for you...


----------



## jlg07

So I'm not clear here -- the wedding is on, but does the fiancee realize what she did? Is HE ok with it?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jlg07 said:


> So I'm not clear here -- the wedding is on, but does the fiancee realize what she did? Is HE ok with it?


The way I read it yes. The fiance is the one doing the random phone checks, she doesn't like his repeated questions of her acts and now she understands that being selfish has negative consequences.


----------



## MyRevelation

Music_Man said:


> BSN? She's in the nursing/medical field? With her loose boundaries?
> 
> Yikes! Man, have I got some stories for you...


Yeah, I feel really bad for the groom ... he has “Future BH” written all over him.

I see a lot of self ass kickings in his future for ignoring the obvious red flags waving.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MyRevelation said:


> Yeah, I feel really bad for the groom ... he has “Future BH” written all over him.
> 
> I see a lot of self ass kickings in his future for ignoring the obvious red flags waving.


Maybe, but it is better to go in informed than to be blinsided years down the road. Unlike some spouses he actually has a choice in the matter. I don't feel sorry for him at all. He knows what she can get up to and he made his choice.


----------



## sokillme

People who don't take their relationship with their spouse or their potential spouse as serious as they do their career seem strange to me. Lot easier to get another job.


----------



## jlg07

heartsbeating said:


> You have a point here. When I went to a bachelorette many moons ago, started out fairly docile with a few drinks and games, then karaoke bar where a few guys started to circle but still innocent fun, then on to the strip-club and more drinks consumed. The married sister of bride-to-be went on stage and gave a crazy lap-dance to the stripper, body parts exposed, the crowd cheering her on. Okay, so that may be acceptable to them. This wasn't for me, and the funky smell in that place was off-putting, and I was actually kinda bored. So I called myself a taxi and exited. I was home having a cup of tea by midnight. This became a bit of a running joke among friends that 'hearts wants to get home for a cuppa..' I'm completely fine with being made fun of for that! Maybe you should tell them the REAL reason you left -- that seeing a married woman do that and be acceptable to all of them was beyond what you were willing to put up with. Being amoral was offensive to you... I have partied in my time, not in that way, but been a DJ and had fun at clubs but I know my limits. Turns out, it got more wild on the party bus that returned them back to the hotel. The bride-to-be confessed to me that she had to remind herself '..don't put it in your mouth..' when things got up close and more available. And maybe you should have told her then what you thought of it. GOOD for you that you left though! Great way to stand up for your own boundaries.
> 
> I think it was fortunate that your wife was no longer drinking, and told you what occurred.


----------



## stillthinking

Good friend of mine has been a nurse for 16 years. The amount of hooking up and infidelity amongst the Dr’s and nurses is staggering. It so easy to get away with it at a hospital. 

If she is pissed with his checking up on her, that will breed resentment. That combined with no boundaries....

It doe# not bode well for the marriage.


----------



## BioFury

@samyeagar 

Have you counseled your daughter that it might be best to call off the wedding? I would invite her to consider that she's not mature enough to maintain such a commitment. Exhibit A being the fact that she started rubbing her butt on another man's crotch the moment her fiance's back was turned.


----------



## Marc878

I don't see where the OP has much input. His wife has set the tone for accepted behavior. Hers wasn't that great either. 

Their daughter will probably gravitate to what suits her best.

Sucks but that's what it is unfortunately


----------



## Andy1001

Music_Man said:


> BSN? She's in the nursing/medical field? With her loose boundaries?
> 
> Yikes! Man, have I got some stories for you...


When I was younger I was as promiscuous as anyone you’ve ever heard of. 
However when it came to dating I had three unbreakable rules. 
No Tattoos. 
No Doctors. 
No Nurses.


----------



## BioFury

Andy1001 said:


> When I was younger I was as promiscuous as anyone you’ve ever heard of.
> However when it came to dating I had three unbreakable rules.
> No Tattoos.
> No Doctors.
> No Nurses.


Kinda strange rules.

Maybe "No AIDS or Herpes" might make it on the list? :wink2:


----------



## samyeagar

BioFury said:


> @samyeagar
> 
> Have you counseled your daughter that it might be best to call off the wedding? I would invite her to consider that she's not mature enough to maintain such a commitment. Exhibit A being the fact that she started rubbing her butt on another man's crotch the moment her fiance's back was turned.


Not directly no, because I know her well enough that it would not accomplish anything other than setting up an "I told you so" later down the line. What I did do though was share my thoughts about how I would handle a situation such as this if this had happened before my wife and I got married. That I would have called off the wedding, and that I would likely be divorcing had my wife behaved as my daughter did.


----------



## minimalME

This whole thread has been somewhat confusing to me.

It was a bachlorette party!

I've never been to one, yet my vivid imagination runs wild with the endless scenarios that could potentially take place.

Why so many of you are okay with your significant other going, but then expect to micromanage the activities and the outcomes is beyond me.

Doesn't it make more sense to simply abstain?





samyeagar said:


> Not directly no, because I know her well enough that it would not accomplish anything other than setting up an "I told you so" later down the line. What I did do though was share my thoughts about how I would handle a situation such as this if this had happened before my wife and I got married. That I would have called off the wedding, and that I would likely be divorcing had my wife behaved as my daughter did.


----------



## samyeagar

minimalME said:


> This whole thread has been somewhat confusing to me.
> 
> It was a bachlorette party!
> 
> I've never been to one, yet my vivid imagination runs wild with the endless scenarios that could potentially take place.
> 
> Why so many of you are okay with your significant other going, but then expect to micromanage the activities and the outcomes is beyond me.
> 
> Doesn't it make more sense to simply abstain?


Well, I am not my wife or daughters keeper. They are adults and responsible for making their own choices, and consequences there of.

There are lots of activities that people should abstain from, yet they just don't. Nothing uncommon about that.


----------



## bandit.45

If a young person has not learned basic morals and developed personal boundaries for behavior by the time they are in their early 20s, no amount of counseling or cajoling of a parent will work. Sammy would be wasting his time and raising the ire in his daughter if he tried.


----------



## bandit.45

minimalME said:


> This whole thread has been somewhat confusing to me.
> 
> It was a bachlorette party!
> 
> I've never been to one, yet my vivid imagination runs wild with the endless scenarios that could potentially take place.
> 
> Why so many of you are okay with your significant other going, but then expect to micromanage the activities and the outcomes is beyond me.
> 
> Doesn't it make more sense to simply abstain?


What ever happened to good old fashioned wedding showers? You know: the backyard affairs where the bride to be and her female friends wear hats and dresses, and laugh and gossip while they sip tea and eat finger foods? 

Oh wait...that's in the alternate universe world huh?


----------



## Tilted 1

samyeagar said:


> minimalME said:
> 
> 
> 
> This whole thread has been somewhat confusing to me.
> 
> It was a bachlorette party!
> 
> I've never been to one, yet my vivid imagination runs wild with the endless scenarios that could potentially take place.
> 
> Why so many of you are okay with your significant other going, but then expect to micromanage the activities and the outcomes is beyond me.
> 
> Doesn't it make more sense to simply abstain?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I am not my wife or daughters keeper. They are adults and responsible for making their own choices, and consequences there of.
> 
> There are lots of activities that people should abstain from, yet they just don't. Nothing uncommon about that.
Click to expand...

No your are not, but hell l still tell my children, straight from my mouth to them both if they do things. They are going to take a dive for the worse. 

I am not a helicopter parent just a loving and caring one. And l don't want them to suffer needlessly. That's all! Because I been there and done that. But like those in the world each to there own.


----------



## minimalME

Not for me. I'd actually love that, and I go to high tea all over the world. 

If you're (not you specifically) saying that this sort of behavior is just how it is (?), then suck it up, stop complaining, and consider it _your_ lesson learned. Certainly don't come on public forum and shame your wife and daughter - after the fact. 

And the response of 'I'm not their keeper' just comes off as BS. My first thought was Belle's response to Scrooge: "...what a safe and terrible answer. So characteristic of the careful man."




bandit.45 said:


> What ever happened to good old fashioned wedding showers? You know: the backyard affairs where the bride to be and her female friends wear hats and dresses, and laugh and gossip while they sip tea and eat finger foods?
> 
> Oh wait...that's in the alternate universe world huh?


----------



## minimalME

I agreed with what you wrote until this.

This is a cop out too - a politically correct one that everyone seems to be saying at the moment.

Nevertheless, we DO influence one another. Ultimately, yes, people make their choices. But when we respect someone, we listen.




Tilted 1 said:


> But like those in the world each to there own.


----------



## Tilted 1

minimalME said:


> I agreed with what you wrote until this.
> 
> This is a cop out too - a politically correct one that everyone seems to be saying at the moment.
> 
> Nevertheless, we DO influence one another. Ultimately, yes, people make their choices. But when we respect someone, we listen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilted 1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But like those in the world each to there own.
Click to expand...

I agree that It is a cop out, but how's that saying go "You can't educate stupid". "Go with the flow" weak is weak, no way to put lipstick on the pig and call it something else.


----------



## samyeagar

bandit.45 said:


> What ever happened to good old fashioned wedding showers? You know: the backyard affairs where the bride to be and her female friends wear hats and dresses, and laugh and gossip while they sip tea and eat finger foods?
> 
> Oh wait...that's in the alternate universe world huh?


Oh, she had a bridal shower as well, a few weeks before the bachelorette party.


----------



## Deejo

I'm just trying to get my head around the concern and triggering going on here. 

So, based upon behavior demonstrated by the bride to be, whether she abdicates her marital vows 90 days after they are given, or 9 years after they are given, it is all simply a result of her character based upon her behavior at a bachelorette party?

My ex-wife had a bachelorette party. She and 6 other women went and had dinner, and then went to a piano bar. If I recall correctly, they drank out of straws that looked like penises. Aaaand ... they had a guy try to talk her OUT of getting married. He was unsuccessful.

We went on to be married (happily for a time) had 2 children, we both became very active in a church, where she remains to this day as a youth coordinator and Sunday school teacher, and is a respected member of her community. We had our sex life go sideways, grew apart, tried counseling twice over 3 years, became bitter, and angry. Ultimately we separated while hoping to recover our marriage, she had an EA that quickly transitioned to a PA.

My point is you can discuss boundaries, what you would, or would not tolerate, trying to keep your partner leashed, or contributing factors to a failed marriage until we are blue in the face.

Sam's daughter and her husband to be still basically have the exact same 50/50 shot everyone else has. At the end of the day, it ain't going to be a 'dirty dance' that defines whether or not they have a strong, healthy marriage.


----------



## sokillme

minimalME said:


> This whole thread has been somewhat confusing to me.
> 
> It was a bachlorette party!
> 
> I've never been to one, yet my vivid imagination runs wild with the endless scenarios that could potentially take place.
> 
> Why so many of you are okay with your significant other going, but then expect to micromanage the activities and the outcomes is beyond me.
> 
> Doesn't it make more sense to simply abstain?


I personally don't forbid my wife from doing anything. She is a grown adult. I have expectations. This would be one of them. Have to be honest though, doing a body shot wouldn't bring me to the level of wanting to divorce though. I would just think it's stupid and disrespectful, I really have no problem with my wife being attracted to other men though. But then again since I have been serious with my wife even before we were married, I have never gone to a strip club or anything like that. I have bowed out when these activities were going on when friends got married. I respect my wife and my marriage too much, besides that I don't think it's wise to go and stair at the donuts at the donut shop when you are on a diet. That is just stupid as far as I am concerned. 

Anyway in my marriage, my wife is going to make her own choices and they I will react accordingly. She knows as much. I suspect this is the case with most.


----------



## BioFury

Deejo said:


> I'm just trying to get my head around the concern and triggering going on here.
> 
> So, based upon behavior demonstrated by the bride to be, whether she abdicates her marital vows 90 days after they are given, or 9 years after they are given, it is all simply a result of her character based upon her behavior at a bachelorette party?
> 
> My ex-wife had a bachelorette party. She and 6 other women went and had dinner, and then went to a piano bar. If I recall correctly, they drank out of straws that looked like penises. Aaaand ... they had a guy try to talk her OUT of getting married. He was unsuccessful.
> 
> We went on to be married (happily for a time) had 2 children, we both became very active in a church, where she remains to this day as a youth coordinator and Sunday school teacher, and is a respected member of her community. We had our sex life go sideways, grew apart, tried counseling twice over 3 years, became bitter, and angry. Ultimately we separated while hoping to recover our marriage, she had an EA that quickly transitioned to a PA.
> 
> My point is you can discuss boundaries, what you would, or would not tolerate, trying to keep your partner leashed, or contributing factors to a failed marriage until we are blue in the face.
> 
> Sam's daughter and her husband to be still basically have the exact same 50/50 shot everyone else has. At the end of the day, it ain't going to be a 'dirty dance' that defines whether or not they have a strong, healthy marriage.


So you don't think the demise of your previous marriage was caused by character issues that were already established the night of her bachelorette party? If not, what do you think was the root of the issue?


----------



## minimalME

The point of my initial post wasn't about forbidding anyone to do anything.

It's more that...it was a bachlorette party. 

If you're not gonna make a fuss beforehand, don't do it after. 

This wasn't a surprise event. Everyone knew it was coming. At least one person was blatantly honest about how her behavior was going to play out. And yet...there's all this surprise. And shock. And outrage. And threats of divorce, or that the marriage shouldn't take place.

I think it's nonsense to act like you (not you specifically) didn't expect x,y and/or z to happen. At a bachlorette party.

I would understand if it had been a business conference. Or if Sam's wife had gone off to visit the grandchildren and decided to take a little detour. 

But this was a bachlorette party. The entire goal is to do unacceptable, risqué, sexually suggestive things. And yes I know not all of them are like that, but come on.  

Context is everything in this situation.

To me it's just willfully ignoring the obvious. And then deciding to play innocent victim afterwards.






sokillme said:


> I personally don't forbid my wife from doing anything. She is a grown adult. I have expectations. This would be one of them. Have to be honest though, doing a body shot wouldn't bring me to the level of wanting to divorce though. I would just think it's stupid and disrespectful, I really have no problem with my wife being attracted to other men though. But then again since I have been serious with my wife even before we were married, I have never gone to a strip club or anything like that. I have bowed out when these activities were going on when friends got married. I respect my wife and my marriage too much, besides that I don't think it's wise to go and stair at the donuts at the donut shop when you are on a diet. That is just stupid as far as I am concerned.
> 
> Anyway in my marriage, my wife is going to make her own choices and they I will react accordingly. She knows as much. I suspect this is the case with most.


----------



## Deejo

BioFury said:


> So you don't think the demise of your previous marriage was caused by character issues that were already established the night of her bachelorette party? If not, what do you think was the root of the issue?


All due respect?

Everyone has 'character' issues. Every. One.

This thread is simply parsing and relating 'cause' based on behavior. Which in and of itself isn't flawed. Her fiance has every right to make his own decision about whether or not the relationship continues based upon his own boundaries, and belief in her commitment to him.

From my perspective their age is more of a factor in long term success as opposed to who did what a bachelor/bachelorette party. That said, my best friend and his wife are celebrating 30 years. They were the first in our circle of friends to get married at 25. Both had bachelor parties ... with strippers.

I didn't get married until my mid-thirties. Neither my ex or I had strippers. Infidelity and divorce.

I understand why people may be mollified by the behavior. But I see no point in comparing bachelor/bachelorette parties as a compass reading for fidelity. It's like comparing apples and dump-trucks.

If you don't like, don't support and don't participate in them ... fine ... but it is by no rational context, a measure for whether or not your partner is going to screw someone else. Unless they screw someone else ... 

To use a similar context that I'm sure people will understand ... "It's not the party's fault."


----------



## oldtruck

minimalME said:


> This whole thread has been somewhat confusing to me.
> 
> It was a bachlorette party!
> 
> I've never been to one, yet my vivid imagination runs wild with the endless scenarios that could potentially take place.
> 
> Why so many of you are okay with your significant other going, but then expect to micromanage the activities and the outcomes is beyond me.
> 
> Doesn't it make more sense to simply abstain?


Attending or hosting a party does not mandate low class behavior.


----------



## oldtruck

Deejo said:


> All due respect?
> 
> Everyone has 'character' issues. Every. One.
> 
> This thread is simply parsing and relating 'cause' based on behavior. Which in and of itself isn't flawed. Her fiance has every right to make his own decision about whether or not the relationship continues based upon his own boundaries, and belief in her commitment to him.
> 
> From my perspective their age is more of a factor in long term success as opposed to who did what a bachelor/bachelorette party. That said, my best friend and his wife are celebrating 30 years. They were the first in our circle of friends to get married at 25. Both had bachelor parties ... with strippers.
> 
> I didn't get married until my mid-thirties. Neither my ex or I had strippers. Infidelity and divorce.
> 
> I understand why people may be mollified by the behavior. But I see no point in comparing bachelor/bachelorette parties as a compass reading for fidelity. It's like comparing apples and dump-trucks.
> 
> If you don't like, don't support and don't participate in them ... fine ... but it is by no rational context, a measure for whether or not your partner is going to screw someone else. Unless they screw someone else ...
> 
> To use a similar context that I'm sure people will understand ... "It's not the party's fault."




This party was not the blame it was the decision to plan a party with strippers.
Having a sexual charged atmosphere, alcohol, potential for recreational drugs is taking
the first step on to the slippery slope.

Then the cry is I did not mean to roll in the mud but I slipped and fell down, on my knees
or what ever else.


----------



## oldtruck

bandit.45 said:


> What ever happened to good old fashioned wedding showers? You know: the backyard affairs where the bride to be and her female friends wear hats and dresses, and laugh and gossip while they sip tea and eat finger foods?
> 
> Oh wait...that's in the alternate universe world huh?




Actually they were called bridal showers.

It seems that modern society says that women should behave as bad as men.
The new generations must think that two wrongs make a right.


----------



## minimalME

Are you deliberately being obtuse? 

I think you fully recognize the difference between a cocktail party and a bachlorette party. 

I'd venture to say (without knowing stats) that the norm for a bachelor/bachlorette party is precisely to have the freedom and permission to act out low class behavior.




oldtruck said:


> Attending or hosting a party does not mandate low class behavior.


----------



## MyRevelation

It gets tiresome reading about some posters moral superiority &/or advanced maturity by citing exceptions, while ignoring the rule.

I much prefer people who accept reality and deal with it in a straight forward manner.


----------



## ConanHub

Deejo said:


> I'm just trying to get my head around the concern and triggering going on here.
> 
> So, based upon behavior demonstrated by the bride to be, whether she abdicates her marital vows 90 days after they are given, or 9 years after they are given, it is all simply a result of her character based upon her behavior at a bachelorette party?
> 
> My ex-wife had a bachelorette party. She and 6 other women went and had dinner, and then went to a piano bar. If I recall correctly, they drank out of straws that looked like penises. Aaaand ... they had a guy try to talk her OUT of getting married. He was unsuccessful.
> 
> We went on to be married (happily for a time) had 2 children, we both became very active in a church, where she remains to this day as a youth coordinator and Sunday school teacher, and is a respected member of her community. We had our sex life go sideways, grew apart, tried counseling twice over 3 years, became bitter, and angry. Ultimately we separated while hoping to recover our marriage, she had an EA that quickly transitioned to a PA.
> 
> My point is you can discuss boundaries, what you would, or would not tolerate, trying to keep your partner leashed, or contributing factors to a failed marriage until we are blue in the face.
> 
> Sam's daughter and her husband to be still basically have the exact same 50/50 shot everyone else has. At the end of the day, it ain't going to be a 'dirty dance' that defines whether or not they have a strong, healthy marriage.


I agree with this mostly although I don't think they have the same chance everyone does if this chick doesn't get some grown up pills soon and the groom needs a backbone because he obviously didn't care for her playing.

You are creepily like someone I know. Very similar circumstances.:surprise:


----------



## Deejo

ConanHub said:


> You are creepily like someone I know. Very similar circumstances.:surprise:


It was the penis straws, wasn't it?

Chub, all I can tell you is that my ex and I were a good match. Took our vows seriously. Planned, marriage, house, kids. We consciously worked at it. And then we weren't such a great match. It was like the frog in the pot scenario. By the time it was apparent, it was too late. 

The primary factor in the deterioration of our relationship wasn't a bachelorette party, or even another man ... it was children. The kids both drew from and filled up her emotional needs well. And that was it. She didn't need, or want anything from me other than to facilitate and safeguard the family ... and if I wanted something from her, it was a burden. It just got turned completely inside out.

Would be easy to focus and harp on the infidelity (which I wouldn't even qualify as infidelity had she not lied about it. We were separated) The real shame was that we allowed and enabled the dynamic that rotted out the foundation of our marriage in the first place. She got married to have a family. I got married to have a wife. We both lost.

Thread jack over/


----------



## ConanHub

I agree with the point @Deejo made.

I have seen way too many proper church ladies cheat who never did anything untoward up until then.

I have also seen some folks with very colorful pasts (raises hand) who have never cheated.

I do think sam's daughter is going to have problems because she isn't over playing stupid with boundaries.

I don't give good or even odds when someone is still f'ng around while engaged.


----------



## OnTheFly




----------



## sokillme

I don't believe for a minute that people who cheat never did anything untoward until then, unless it's a kind of work affair that builds over time, slowly pushing boundaries. 

If we aren't talking about some kind of mental illness people just don't spend their whole lives being faithful and then meet someone and in a span of days, weeks even hours decide to throw that all away like the narrative seems to suggest. It just doesn't work that way. It seems to work that way because those "church going" people are very good at hiding their true nature and poor history.


----------



## ConanHub

sokillme said:


> I don't believe for a minute that people who cheat never did anything untoward until then, unless it's a kind of work affair that builds over time, slowly pushing boundaries.
> 
> If we aren't talking about some kind of mental illness people just don't spend their whole lives being faithful and then meet someone and in a span of days, weeks even hours decide to throw that all away like the narrative seems to suggest. It just doesn't work that way. It seems to work that way because those "church going" people are very good at hiding their true nature and poor history.


I'm so glad you know so much more about what I personally witnessed than I do.:grin2:

It is exactly what happened and I know what happened in most of those cases. They were never prepared for infidelity, never warned about the dangers of it and were in fact brought up believing only men committed adultery.

Some others were caught up in some weird women's empowerment movement and just took advantage of it and they weren't being held accountable. Their husbands were most often blamed.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

Deejo said:


> At the end of the day, it ain't going to be a 'dirty dance' that defines whether or not they have a strong, healthy marriage.


 The "dirty dance" might not be *what* defines their marriage but it sure is a red flag and shows the amount of disrespect she had for her fiance', which in turn could/will have a strong bearing on the outcome of their marriage. 
In other words, "dirty dancing" might not be the cause but it sure is evidence of it.


----------



## heartsbeating

Deejo said:


> It was the penis straws, wasn't it?


Classic. Too funny.


----------



## heartsbeating

jlg07 said:


> Maybe you should tell them the REAL reason you left -- that seeing a married woman do that and be acceptable to all of them was beyond what you were willing to put up with. Being amoral was offensive to you...





jlg07 said:


> And maybe you should have told her then what you thought of it. GOOD for you that you left though! Great way to stand up for your own boundaries.


Honey, I try not to deal in should haves... like I said, this was many moons ago. Also I disagree with you. Just because something doesn't sit right with me, in a scenario like this, doesn't mean I need to verbally express that - particularly with other grown folk. It also doesn't require me to stay or comply either. Different strokes for different folks etc. As for the bride-to-be, she felt bad enough. She didn't me lauding it over her.


----------



## heartsbeating

bandit.45 said:


> What ever happened to good old fashioned wedding showers? You know: the backyard affairs where the bride to be and her female friends wear hats and dresses, and laugh and gossip while they sip tea and eat finger foods?
> 
> Oh wait...that's in the alternate universe world huh?


I love a good high-tea.


Bridal showers? ...I frickn missed that memo!


----------



## lovelygirl

sokillme said:


> I personally don't forbid my wife from doing anything. She is a grown adult. I have expectations. This would be one of them. Have to be honest though, doing a body shot wouldn't bring me to the level of wanting to divorce though. I would just think it's stupid and disrespectful, I really have no problem with my wife being attracted to other men though. But then again since I have been serious with my wife even before we were married, I have never gone to a strip club or anything like that. I have bowed out when these activities were going on when friends got married. I respect my wife and my marriage too much, besides that I don't think it's wise to go and stair at the donuts at the donut shop when you are on a diet. That is just stupid as far as I am concerned.
> 
> Anyway, in my marriage, my wife is going to make her own choices and they I will react accordingly. She knows as much. I suspect this is the case with most.


totally agreed!

It's not about preventing someone from doing something. It's about having enough common sense before making stupid decisions or acting based solely on the instinct. 

If the 24 y.o soon-to-be-wife doesn't have _healthy_ boundaries or if other women had to take their rings off, just for free drinks, that is pure lack of personality, lack of self-respect as well as lack of respect for the relationship/marriage. 

Simple.


----------



## samyeagar

ConanHub said:


> I agree with the point @Deejo made.
> 
> I have seen way too many proper church ladies cheat who never did anything untoward up until then.
> 
> I have also seen some folks with very colorful pasts (raises hand) who have never cheated.
> 
> I do think sam's daughter is going to have problems because she isn't over playing stupid with boundaries.
> 
> I don't give good or even odds when someone is still f'ng around while engaged.





ConanHub said:


> I'm so glad you know so much more about what I personally witnessed than I do.:grin2:
> 
> It is exactly what happened and I know what happened in most of those cases. They were never prepared for infidelity, never warned about the dangers of it and were in fact brought up believing only men committed adultery.
> 
> Some others were caught up in some weird women's empowerment movement and just took advantage of it and they weren't being held accountable. Their husbands were most often blamed.


I think this kind of hits on it. The mindset some people get from being told their whole lives that they not only can, but deserve to have it all. You go gurl! and all that. Then you mix that with some amount of success in life, and to be honest, while the word "disrespect" fits, I am not sure it is so much disrespect of her husband to be as it is almost a complete disassociation between her single life, and the life she is trying to build with him. As if it didn't even cross her mind that she was engaging in disrespectful actions, or that there would be consequences.


----------



## Blondilocks

Deejo said:


> It was the penis straws, wasn't it?
> 
> *Chub*, all I can tell you is that my ex and I were a good match. Took our vows seriously. Planned, marriage, house, kids. We consciously worked at it. And then we weren't such a great match. It was like the frog in the pot scenario. By the time it was apparent, it was too late.
> 
> The primary factor in the deterioration of our relationship wasn't a bachelorette party, or even another man ... it was children. The kids both drew from and filled up her emotional needs well. And that was it. She didn't need, or want anything from me other than to facilitate and safeguard the family ... and if I wanted something from her, it was a burden. It just got turned completely inside out.
> 
> Would be easy to focus and harp on the infidelity (which I wouldn't even qualify as infidelity had she not lied about it. We were separated) The real shame was that we allowed and enabled the dynamic that rotted out the foundation of our marriage in the first place. She got married to have a family. I got married to have a wife. We both lost.
> 
> Thread jack over/


Chub? 

Hey, he's working on it. @ConanHub, are you going to take this lying down?>

Sorry, Sam; it's been a little slow around here, lately.:grin2:


----------



## samyeagar

A conversation my wife and I had a couple days ago really seemed to hit home with her. I explained that most of my decisions in life come down to some variant of risk vs. reward. I always assume there will be things that I cannot foresee, that I cannot account for. My marriage is singularly important to me, and there is no activity that is so rewarding that it is worth even minimal risk our marriage. That behaviours do not happen in a vacuum, and things such as removing rings for free drinks is actively increasing the risk.

She asked if I was saying that she shouldn't have gone. I explained that no, I was not suggesting that at all, I was saying that given what was known before hand about the plans and intentions, and people who were going to be there, the entire open and upfront intent of the party was to push boundaries and risk level. It was not a secret and didn't take much reading between the lines to figure out that this was an excursion to deliberately go get drunk and party with men who were not the explicitly excluded partners. That had I been faced with the decision to go or not go, I would have chosen not to go.


----------



## Blondilocks

samyeagar said:


> A conversation my wife and I had a couple days ago really seemed to hit home with her. I explained that most of my decisions in life come down to some variant of risk vs. reward. I always assume there will be things that I cannot foresee, that I cannot account for. My marriage is singularly important to me, and there is no activity that is so rewarding that it is worth even minimal risk our marriage. That behaviours do not happen in a vacuum, and things such as removing rings for free drinks is actively increasing the risk.
> 
> *She asked if I was saying that she shouldn't have gone*. I explained that no, I was not suggesting that at all, I was saying that given what was known before hand about the plans and intentions, and people who were going to be there, the entire open and upfront intent of the party was to push boundaries and risk level. It was not a secret and didn't take much reading between the lines to figure out that this was an excursion to deliberately go get drunk and party with men who were not the explicitly excluded partners. That had I been faced with the decision to go or not go, I would have chosen not to go.


This kind of ticks me off. She's blaming the venue and not her deportment. If her friend walked around with a pile of crap on their head, would she feel obliged to also? She isn't wanting to accept responsibility for her behavior. Watch out for her blaming you for letting her go.


----------



## Malaise

samyeagar said:


> That had I been faced with the decision to go or not go, I would have chosen not to go.


Or, having chosen to go, acted as a married woman, ie: not letting some strange man do body shots.

She only had control over her choices and she chose poorly.


----------



## ConanHub

Blondilocks said:


> Chub?
> 
> Hey, he's working on it. @ConanHub, are you going to take this lying down?>
> 
> Sorry, Sam; it's been a little slow around here, lately.:grin2:


I got all sensitive for a split second and wondered just what he was insinuating until I realized what "Chub" stood for.:grin2:


----------



## sokillme

Blondilocks said:


> This kind of ticks me off. She's blaming the venue and not her deportment. If her friend walked around with a pile of crap on their head, would she feel obliged to also? She isn't wanting to accept responsibility for her behavior. Watch out for her blaming you for letting her go.


Unfortunately this is the mindset of lots of people.


----------



## lovelygirl

Wolfman1968 said:


> Yet, you maintain that her decision to behave badly at her bachelorette party is because she makes immature decisions because she is 24.
> 
> Don't you see the basic inconsistency here?
> 
> If she is old enough to make a responsible decision to get married, then she ought to be old enough to make responsible decisions on her sexual/social behavior.
> 
> It just seems to me that making a good life-long decision to choose your mate with whom you would want to grow old with,


*1. *Getting married a*t 24, is (in itself) immature [in this day and age]*; Times have changed and nowadays, marriage at just 24 y.o is considered to be premature. She'll realize this once she gets married and matures a bit more.
*
2.* She and her STBH might be a good match for each other because I guess *they have the same level of immaturity *- He bought a $7.000 boat without even consulting with her or even saying anything about it to her, beforehand. He either doesn't value money enough to think twice or has inherited some money from his family - easy money anyway. 
*
3.* Tell me, what decent & mature man would be okay with a STBW to have a bachelorette party of *that category??? *With undressed males around, doing inappropriate things to the bride-to-be and her crew???

So, her behavior doesn't surprise me because I think she has the same type of man by her side. :wink2:

You know? matchy-matchy.


----------



## Tilted 1

SAM SAID:" She asked if I was saying that she shouldn't have gone. I explained that no, I was not suggesting that at all, I was saying that given what was known before hand about the plans and intentions, and people who were going to be there, the entire open and upfront intent of the party was to push boundaries and risk level. It was not a secret and didn't take much reading between the lines to figure out that this was an excursion to deliberately go get drunk and party with men who were not the explicitly excluded partners. That had I been faced with the decision to go or not go, I would have chosen not to go.”.


This pretty much sums it up then. It is boundaries you have great ones in place Sam. But all the others in you life, have a whole different standard that would compliment you marriage and your family values. Again what so wrong if your spouse has weak boundaries set some hard lines in advance for them. 

Again it's for not, and futile when you displace and rationalize their bad choices and hold accountable too what the unknown came to be. It appears you do not know your wife so it seems, and your wife does not know you as you thought, (She cross your boundaries) Or just does not care And her display at your daughters party is showing you exactly, she will fulfill her needs over yours and that of your marriage. But the paragraph above collide's with how your responses have been up to this point.

Not beating a horse here, Sam but go forward from this experience. And do tell your spouse of your expectations may be to come and rear is head in the future. It's like if you were to call your spouse to ask if it would be ok to do for example - ( wife calls you and asks honey would it be ok to a body shot while l am in a bikini and everyone is toasted the guy is very young and handsome and l swear it won't go further than 1 body shot. Because l will refuse the egging on from the other girls and GUYS for me to do more because of the other young guys are lining up to be the next one.Because I see the other wild and crazy things that are going on like the grinding and dirty dancing. Because darling you know l have boundaries). 

Just saying Sam, learn and grow from this for you and your marriage. But if you are comfortable in it the way is more power to you because you are able to endure more than l ever could.

Strength and power. 
Strength and endurance.
Strength and courage.


----------



## lovelygirl

samyeagar said:


> A conversation my wife and I had a couple days ago really seemed to hit home with her. I explained that most of my decisions in life come down to some variant of risk vs. reward. I always assume there will be things that I cannot foresee, that I cannot account for. My marriage is singularly important to me, and there is no activity that is so rewarding that it is worth even minimal risk our marriage. That behaviours do not happen in a vacuum, and things such as removing rings for free drinks is actively increasing the risk.
> 
> She asked if I was saying that she shouldn't have gone. I explained that no, I was not suggesting that at all, I was saying that given what was known before hand about the plans and intentions, and people who were going to be there, the entire open and upfront intent of the party was to push boundaries and risk level. It was not a secret and didn't take much reading between the lines to figure out that this was an excursion to deliberately go get drunk and party with men who were not the explicitly excluded partners. That had I been faced with the decision to go or not go, I would have chosen not to go.


As much as I agree with the option of choosing NOT to go, I'd also agree with the fact that she went BUT keeping herself discreet with other males and not getting crazy as others did, would be a smart thing. 

Just because people act crazy at a venue, doesn't mean you should too. That's what personality is about. 

You know? I've never been one to forbid someone to do something. Actually, let them be and feel free in their habit. That's how you get to know them better.


----------



## Deejo

Blondilocks said:


> Chub?
> 
> Hey, he's working on it. @ConanHub, are you going to take this lying down?>
> 
> Sorry, Sam; it's been a little slow around here, lately.:grin2:


Should have thrown in the dash, or capitalized the H. Did not see it all that way ... until your post.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

lovelygirl said:


> *1. *Getting married a*t 24, is (in itself) immature [in this day and age]*; Times have changed and nowadays, marriage at just 24 y.o is considered to be premature. She'll realize this once she gets married and matures a bit more.
> *
> 2.* She and her STBH might be a good match for each other because I guess *they have the same level of immaturity *- He bought a $7.000 boat without even consulting with her or even saying anything about it to her, beforehand. He either doesn't value money enough to think twice or has inherited some money from his family - easy money anyway.
> *
> 3.* Tell me, what decent & mature man would be okay with a STBW to have a bachelorette party of *that category??? *With undressed males around, doing inappropriate things to the bride-to-be and her crew???
> 
> So, her behavior doesn't surprise me because I think she has the same type of man by her side. :wink2:
> 
> You know? matchy-matchy.


This may be true, but I'd be wary of just assuming it as you state it. First of all, the purchase of a boat is not in any way equivalent to engaging in sexually charged behavior outside a supposedly monogamous relationship. False equivalency. 

Also, even when married, many couples manage separate finances, and these two aren't even married yet. It's not like he pulled anything from marital assets. 

But more importantly, do we have any real insight into the financial status of hubby to be? Can he afford a boat? Can his income comfortably absorb this outlay? How much savings does he have? Without knowing any details, this is pointless... and worse, pejorative, speculation. Maybe he could have easily afforded a 20K boat and only got a 7K boat... which would indicate the opposite, that he does "value money." Maybe he drives a Honda instead of a Beemer, so he's been good with money to this point. Unless someone fills in the blanks here, we need to stay off this line of whataboutism.


----------



## lovelygirl

I understand your points but....



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> First of all, the purchase of a boat is not in any way equivalent to engaging in sexually charged behavior outside a supposedly monogamous relationship. False equivalency.


I didn't relate this to "cheating". I related it to* immaturity.* I was quoting someone else with regards to "immaturity" and I was making an equivalence that he might be indeed immature (just like her) because some of his actions can be perceived to this degree.



> Maybe he could have easily afforded a 20K boat and only got a 7K boat... which would indicate the opposite, that he does "value money."


OP said he comes from a rich family.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

lovelygirl said:


> I understand your points but....
> 
> 
> I didn't relate this to "cheating". I related it to* immaturity.* I was quoting someone else with regards to "immaturity" and I was making an equivalence that he might be indeed immature (just like her) because some of his actions can be perceived to this degree.
> 
> 
> OP said he comes from a rich family.


Well, you actually went further than that when you said "I think she has the *same type *of man by her side. " Both being immature isn't the same thing as "same type," which implies similarity as to the manner or equivalency of immaturity. 

This is an important distinction, because even if they are both immature, they are immature in different ways, only one of which has a known direct negative impact on a monogamous relationship . In this case, bringing up immaturity at all is therefore irrelevant.

If OP comes from a rich family, you're just playing on a stereotype that he's not aware of the value of money. That may or may not be the case. But even more to the point, if he's got the money and it won't significantly impact the coming marital nest egg, then there's no cause for complaint.


----------



## stillthinking

> She asked if I was saying that she shouldn't have gone.


Notice how in her mind it is binary. Go or not go. The idea of going, but then removing herself from activities she would deem inappropriate (if she had such boundaries) is foreign to her. 

Your wife holds her ethics to be situational. What is accepted behavior depends on context, in the moment. She does not have hard boundaries. And she has passed them down to her daughter. And like most younger people she will push those boundaries further. 

This is how we know that you are the step dad who came into the picture later. Had you been there from the get go you could have balanced out your wife's morals and standards with your own.

They should remember: YOU take YOU with YOU wherever YOU go. So you better have your head screwed on straight.


----------



## sokillme

stillthinking said:


> Notice how in her mind it is binary. Go or not go. The idea of going, but then removing herself from activities she would deem inappropriate (if she had such boundaries) is foreign to her.
> 
> Your wife holds her ethics to be situational. What is accepted behavior depends on context, in the moment. She does not have hard boundaries. And she has passed them down to her daughter. And like most younger people she will push those boundaries further.
> 
> This is how we know that you are the step dad who came into the picture later. Had you been there from the get go you could have balanced out your wife's morals and standards with your own.
> 
> They should remember: YOU take YOU with YOU wherever YOU go. So you better have your head screwed on straight.


For her it's not binary, it's situational. But it's much easier to be married to people who ARE binary. Taking your ring off to use your sexuality for an advantage is wrong hard stop. Physical contact with the opposite sex in a sexual context (even if nothing happens besides that) is wrong hard stop.


----------



## alte Dame

It's sad that in leveling the playing field, some women are aping traditional male behavior in bachelor parties, which just drags the tenor of everything way down. I don't think it's harmless. I agree that there are red flags here. The boundary issues alone indicate an emotional distance from the fiance, which doesn't bode well, imo, when you should be in the honeymoon phase of the relationship.

OP is correct to see this party as a problem. I would, too.


----------



## lovelygirl

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> This is an important distinction, because even if they are both immature, they are immature in different ways,


Why does it matter if they are immature in different ways?

In the end, they are both immature. Full stop.
Their immaturity leads to impulsive and uncontrolled behavior, disrespectful towards one-another AND the relationship. They end up exhibiting the same emotional immaturity, regardless of the means they use.



> If OP comes from a rich family, you're just playing on a stereotype that he's not aware of the value of money. That may or may not be the case. But even more to the point, if he's got the money and it won't significantly impact the coming marital nest egg, then there's no cause for complaint.


It's not about how much money the guy has, it's about HOW he treats it that (again)... leads to "maturity" or "immaturity". 

But we don't know much about the guy, just as we don't know much about the girl. 

But I'm sure as hell *that a mature decent guy* wouldn't be okay with a SO organising these types of bachelorette parties. The fact that he might've been okay(and he was because the party actually took place), speaks of the low standards that they both have for the bounderies in a committed relationship.

I say "low" because that's what they are to me 
...but to them these might be the norm. 
So yeah, matchy-matchy.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

lovelygirl said:


> Why does it matter if they are immature in different ways?
> 
> In the end, they are both immature. Full stop.
> Their immaturity leads to impulsive and uncontrolled behavior, disrespectful towards one-another AND the relationship. They end up exhibiting the same emotional immaturity, regardless of the means they use.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not about how much money the guy has, it's about HOW he treats it that (again)... leads to "maturity" or "immaturity".
> 
> But we don't know much about the guy, just as we don't know much about the girl.
> 
> But I'm sure as hell *that a mature decent guy* wouldn't be okay with a SO organising these types of bachelorette parties. The fact that he might've been okay(and he was because the party actually took place), speaks of the low standards that they both have for the bounderies in a committed relationship.
> 
> I say "low" because that's what they are to me
> ...but to them these might be the norm.
> So yeah, matchy-matchy.


Immaturity manifests in different ways. Not all are destructive to a relationship nor do all lead to disrespectful behavior. Some people are immature in some ways and incredibly mature in others. Immaturity isn't always a blanket label that applies across all of one's behaviors. 

The buying a boat thing is a total red herring here, at least based on what we know.

Now, to the point that he was on board with the bachelorette party, you may have a point there, especially if he was aware of the intended level of activity... of course he might have not known it would degenerate into that which could merely indicate naivete rather than immaturity.


----------



## oldtruck

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> This may be true, but I'd be wary of just assuming it as you state it. First of all, the purchase of a boat is not in any way equivalent to engaging in sexually charged behavior outside a supposedly monogamous relationship. False equivalency.
> 
> Also, even when married, many couples manage separate finances, and these two aren't even married yet. It's not like he pulled anything from marital assets.
> 
> But more importantly, do we have any real insight into the financial status of hubby to be? Can he afford a boat? Can his income comfortably absorb this outlay? How much savings does he have? Without knowing any details, this is pointless... and worse, pejorative, speculation. Maybe he could have easily afforded a 20K boat and only got a 7K boat... which would indicate the opposite, that he does "value money." Maybe he drives a Honda instead of a Beemer, so he's been good with money to this point. Unless someone fills in the blanks here, we need to stay off this line of whataboutism.


To make a $7,000 purchase right before a marriage without consulting your spouse
to be is not a good move.

Also to be an adult and to not know the difference between a need and a want.
99% of the time owing a boat is a want and not a need.


----------



## oldtruck

lovelygirl said:


> I understand your points but....
> 
> 
> I didn't relate this to "cheating". I related it to* immaturity.* I was quoting someone else with regards to "immaturity" and I was making an equivalence that he might be indeed immature (just like her) because some of his actions can be perceived to this degree.
> 
> 
> OP said he comes from a rich family.


For me there is no reason for a wife to be in a bar/resort setting in a bikini giving
strange men belly shots.

A man's lips on a woman's body to do a belly shot is him placing his mouth on her body
in an intimate and sexual manner.

This is not a PIV but the first step in a PA.


----------



## samyeagar

oldtruck said:


> To make a $7,000 purchase right before a marriage without consulting your spouse
> to be is not a good move.
> 
> Also to be an adult and to not know the difference between a need and a want.
> 99% of the time owing a boat is a want and not a need.


She has expressed her concerns and displeasure at his spending habits. No, it is not the same thing as the bachelorette party, but it does show youth and inexperience in a marital type relationship, and the consideration one should have for their partner. I am not sure disrespect is the right word so much as disregard. They both have some growing up to do in different ways if they are to have a successful marriage. Her behaviour seems more likely to blow things up sooner.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

oldtruck said:


> To make a $7,000 purchase right before a marriage without consulting your spouse
> to be is not a good move.
> 
> Also to be an adult and to not know the difference between a need and a want.
> 99% of the time owing a boat is a want and not a need.


Sure, I would have talked about it with my wife to be as well. But again, we have no idea if this was no more in issue to him than buying a new iphone would be to you or me given his financial resources. Nobody would fault most folks for getting a new phone, even though that may be harder on their financial resources than this boat would be on his. I have riding buddies who have $5-6K mountain bikes. They didn't have to mother-may-I their girlfriends to get one. 

And again, if he has the financial resources to cover it, whether it is a need or a want is completely irrelevant. And how do you go in with the assumption that he doesn't know the difference in the first place? He may be well aware it's a want and not a need. You have zero evidence otherwise. 

Unless he took out a loan that he will carry into the marriage, nobody else has any grounds to complain here. We know he didn't use any marital assets here as they are not yet married, and as far as we know, he didn't do anything that would cause the marriage to start on poor financial footing. 

Lots of judgment going on here with little to back it up.


----------



## bandit.45

Sammy I worry more about your wife than I do your daughter. I think we're focusing on the wrong chick here.


----------



## bandit.45

I guess I don't get the whole mindset of "bachelorette parties". I sort of understand bachelor parties because we guys are horny, disgusting pigs and that is never going to change. But why would a bride want to be a bimbo one last time with some rando dancer guy she doesn't know? Why celebrate that? Isn't that the life she is trying to leave by getting married: being loose and foolish and an easy lay for any guy that strikes her fancy? 

Maybe I'm being male-centric here and not being fair, but I do think women are the superior sex and it is more disappointing when women pull this sh*t that when men do it. That's my opinion...I don't expect many of you to agree.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

bandit.45 said:


> I guess I don't get the whole mindset of "bachelorette parties". I sort of understand bachelor parties because we guys are horny, disgusting pigs and that is never going to change. But why would a bride want to be a bimbo one last time with some rando dancer guy she doesn't know? Why celebrate that? Isn't that the life she is trying to leave by getting married: being loose and foolish and an easy lay for any guy that strikes her fancy?
> 
> Maybe I'm being male-centric here and not being fair, but *I do think women are the superior sex and it is more disappointing when women pull this sh*t that when men do it. *That's my opinion...I don't expect many of you to agree.


That is a clear cut double standard... which if I'm honest, I share. Maybe we should stop putting women on pedestals. Or maybe we shouldn't. One could claim that while men have largely run the show through the years, it's women and their superior behavior that has actually held societies together.


----------



## bandit.45

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That is a clear cut double standard... which if I'm honest, I share. Maybe we should stop putting women on pedestals. Or maybe we shouldn't. One could claim that while men have largely run the show through the years, it's women and their superior behavior that has actually held societies together.


It seems like their superiority is waning fast. Maybe women as a whole don't belong on pedestals anymore. Perhaps they never did?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

bandit.45 said:


> It seems like their superiority is waning fast. Maybe women as a whole don't belong on pedestals anymore. Perhaps they never did?


Maybe it's time for men to grow up. Far too often, the only reason men behave is because women demand it. If women are sinking to our level, it'll be up to us to police ourselves :surprise::surprise::surprise:


----------



## Blondilocks

bandit.45 said:


> I guess I don't get the whole mindset of "bachelorette parties". I sort of understand bachelor parties because we guys are horny, disgusting pigs and that is never going to change. But why would a bride want to be a bimbo one last time with some rando dancer guy she doesn't know? Why celebrate that? Isn't that the life she is trying to leave by getting married: being loose and foolish and an easy lay for any guy that strikes her fancy?
> 
> Maybe I'm being male-centric here and not being fair, but *I do think women are the superior sex and it is more disappointing when women pull this sh*t that when men do it. *That's my opinion...I don't expect many of you to agree.


That's coming from a male perspective. You know that bad taste (slightly metallic) in your mouth when thinking about the women's fall from grace? That's the same, exact taste women have toward men behaving in the same manner. I don't think either gender has a leg up on the other when it comes to bad behavior.

I do agree with you about women being the superior sex, though.:grin2:


----------



## bandit.45

Blondilocks said:


> That's coming from a male perspective. You know that bad taste (slightly metallic) in your mouth when thinking about the women's fall from grace? *That's the same, exact taste women have toward men behaving in the same manner. * I don't think either gender has a leg up on the other when it comes to bad behavior.
> 
> I do agree with you about women being the superior sex, though.:grin2:


See I find that interesting, because the impression I have always had is that most women expect the worst from men, and then are pleasantly surprised when we actually act like humans.


----------



## Blondilocks

bandit.45 said:


> See I find that interesting, because the impression I have always had is that *most women expect the worst from men, *and then are pleasantly surprised when we actually act like humans.


Posturing for self-protection. They wouldn't be devastated when bad behavior rears its ugly head, otherwise. The more devastated - the more highly regarded. A 'meh' attitude would indicate they did, indeed, expect the guy to act like a pig.

C'mon, bandito, try to get down with the program before collecting your first social security check, ok?


----------



## ConanHub

bandit.45 said:


> I guess I don't get the whole mindset of "bachelorette parties". I sort of understand bachelor parties because we guys are horny, disgusting pigs and that is never going to change. But why would a bride want to be a bimbo one last time with some rando dancer guy she doesn't know? Why celebrate that? Isn't that the life she is trying to leave by getting married: being loose and foolish and an easy lay for any guy that strikes her fancy?
> 
> Maybe I'm being male-centric here and not being fair, but I do think women are the superior sex and it is more disappointing when women pull this sh*t that when men do it. That's my opinion...I don't expect many of you to agree.


The party idea isn't bad but making it low is.

I can't really agree with you about the wimenz.

They are every bit as debauched, sometimes more so, as men.

I grew up seeing almost all women behaving badly and willing to do almost anything that wouldn't kill them immediately.

My son's fiance is a beautiful and smart young lady who was a rave and party queen, going down a questionable path until my son intervened in her life and helped straighten her out.

Her whole family was a bit troubled however. My son also intervened to help her father and her brother.

I guess my point is that there are a lot of men who step up and hold things together out there.

I don't believe in a superior sex. I've seen both be amazing and disgusting.


----------



## lovelygirl

bandit.45 said:


> I guess I don't get the whole mindset of "bachelorette parties". I sort of understand bachelor parties because we guys are horny, disgusting pigs and that is never going to change. But why would a bride want to be a bimbo one last time with some rando dancer guy she doesn't know? Why celebrate that? Isn't that the life she is trying to leave by getting married: being loose and foolish and an easy lay for any guy that strikes her fancy?
> 
> Maybe I'm being male-centric here and not being fair, but I do think women are the superior sex and it is more disappointing when women pull this sh*t that when men do it. That's my opinion...I don't expect many of you to agree.


I'll have to agree to this double standard. I can see why a guy would want a bachelor party but I don't feel/figure out the necessity of a woman to go for a bachelorette party of this sort. It's some sort of feminism here trying to act cool and wanting some "equal rights".

Anyway, what's the point to try and see other male-genitals or acting like single, if you've already been one a few months ago?? I wouldn't even miss it. 

Though we don't really know how long they've been together. Maybe she hasn't been with anyone else before him? or maybe she's been with him for such a long time??
She's just 24. 

This screams "desperate" anyway.


----------



## bandit.45

Blondilocks said:


> C'mon, bandito, try to get down with the program before collecting your first social security check, ok?


No its too late. Old dog.


----------



## Decorum

.


----------



## ABHale

lovelygirl said:


> Why does it matter if they are immature in different ways?
> 
> In the end, they are both immature. Full stop.
> Their immaturity leads to impulsive and uncontrolled behavior, disrespectful towards one-another AND the relationship. They end up exhibiting the same emotional immaturity, regardless of the means they use.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not about how much money the guy has, it's about HOW he treats it that (again)... leads to "maturity" or "immaturity".
> 
> But we don't know much about the guy, just as we don't know much about the girl.
> 
> But I'm sure as hell *that a mature decent guy* wouldn't be okay with a SO organising these types of bachelorette parties. The fact that he might've been okay(and he was because the party actually took place), speaks of the low standards that they both have for the bounderies in a committed relationship.
> 
> I say "low" because that's what they are to me
> ...but to them these might be the norm.
> So yeah, matchy-matchy.


Because in reality she cheated on her BF. She got another man off by rubbing herself on him. 

My wife and I married at 19/20 years old. We have been married for 31 years now. So what’s that on immaturity? If you mean this generation is immature for their ages, then I couldn’t agree with you more.


----------



## ABHale

As for what she did at her party, how was he supposed to know she was going to cheat? Party yes he knew this but I guarantee he never knew she would do what she did.


----------



## lovelygirl

ABHale said:


> Because in reality she cheated on her BF. She got another man off by rubbing herself on him.
> 
> My wife and I married at 19/20 years old. We have been married for 31 years now. So what’s that on immaturity? If you mean this generation is immature for their ages, then I couldn’t agree with you more.


There is always an exception to the rule. Just because you married at 20s and your marriage lasted, you are *not* the norm. I am a fond believer that getting married at 20s is WAY too early. Yours happened to work, but most marriages around this age don't. And it makes sense. What do you know about life, in your 20s ? About yourself? About your partner? 
You _think _you know. Anyway, that's another debate. Not for this thread.

As for immaturity, I was talking about_ their actions_. Even a 40-year old person can do immature actions, meaning inappropriate ones. 
What the girl did at her bachelorette party was way immature and I would've said the same thinge even if she was 40.


----------



## lovelygirl

ABHale said:


> As for what she did at her party, how was he supposed to know she was going to cheat? Party yes he knew this but I guarantee he never knew she would do what she did.


I don't think he didn't know anything. Isn't it normal to ask your SO "how do you plan to organize the party? What/who will there be?" It's common sense that this question was asked by him, unless she lied in the first place.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

bandit.45 said:


> See I find that interesting, because the impression I have always had is that most women expect the worst from men, and then are pleasantly surprised when we actually act like humans.


I would be one of those females and I completely admit it.


----------



## ABHale

lovelygirl said:


> I don't think he didn't know anything. Isn't it normal to ask your SO "how do you plan to organize the party? What/who will there be?" It's common sense that this question was asked by him, unless she lied in the first place.


He knew his and her mom was going to be there. 

She blew her mom off when she tried to calm things down and got into a argument with his mom. Then did what she wanted. 

He didn’t think things would go the way they did.


----------



## ABHale

I think marriage works long term if both in the relationship work together. 

I know several couples in marriages longer then ours. 

Also it depends on ones upbringing and the area one lives in. 

My parents divorced when I was 4 because my mom cheated. My mom never had a good thing to say about my dad. My dad never said anything negative about mom. He actually asked how she was doing when we would visit over the summer. 

We all have different beliefs on how we should be before marriage. That’s ok. What’s not ok is saying anything that disrespects what one believes in if it doesn’t go along with what you do.


----------



## oldtruck

ABHale said:


> He knew his and her mom was going to be there.
> 
> She blew her mom off when she tried to calm things down and got into a argument with his mom. Then did what she wanted.
> 
> He didn’t think things would go the way they did.


I would think that he felt safe knowing his MIL and mother would be there
and that they would have his back.


----------



## syhoybenden

oldtruck said:


> I would think that he felt safe knowing his MIL and mother would be there
> and that they would have his back.


Poor sap. They both, ... er, ah ... all three, disappointed him.


----------



## Arrowspark

syhoybenden said:


> oldtruck said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would think that he felt safe knowing his MIL and mother would be there
> and that they would have his back.
> 
> 
> 
> Poor sap. They both, ... er, ah ... all three, disappointed him.
Click to expand...


Yep, either way it better for him that this info came out before the wedding. If he still chooses to go through with the wedding after this then he going in with his eyes open and can't claim he had no idea what she was really like. Honestly, needing to call to check up on her BEFORE they are even married should be a wake up for him.


----------



## Francismae2019

Wow. Very well told story. The sad part for me to read was the rationale of many people today to excuse what I think you were referring when you used the term "inappropriate", that in my mind would consider cheating. With social media today I would expect many to keep in contact with their playmates from the evening and go even further beyond inappropriate if that haven't already. Once on the line, it's easy to step over it.


----------



## bandit.45

ABHale said:


> My parents divorced when I was 4 because my mom cheated. My mom never had a good thing to say about my dad. My dad never said anything negative about mom. He actually asked how she was doing when we would visit over the summer.


Interesting how that works isn't it? The responsible, principled parent is usually the one who gets labelled as the villain. I hope you and your siblings gave your dad an extra spoonfool of lovin' for being as longsuffering and forgiving as he was.


----------



## ABHale

bandit.45 said:


> Interesting how that works isn't it? The responsible, principled parent is usually the one who gets labelled as the villain. I hope you and your siblings gave your dad an extra spoonfool of lovin' for being as longsuffering and forgiving as he was.


We went to live with him as we turned 12.


----------



## bandit.45

ABHale said:


> We went to live with him as we turned 12.


Good. Bet mommy wasn't happy with that.


----------



## ABHale

bandit.45 said:


> Good. Bet mommy wasn't happy with that.


That wasn’t a very good time period.


----------



## Diana7

lovelygirl said:


> There is always an exception to the rule. Just because you married at 20s and your marriage lasted, you are *not* the norm. I am a fond believer that getting married at 20s is WAY too early. Yours happened to work, but most marriages around this age don't. And it makes sense. What do you know about life, in your 20s ? About yourself? About your partner?
> You _think _you know. Anyway, that's another debate. Not for this thread.
> 
> As for immaturity, I was talking about_ their actions_. Even a 40-year old person can do immature actions, meaning inappropriate ones.
> What the girl did at her bachelorette party was way immature and I would've said the same thinge even if she was 40.


Marrying in your late teens and early 20's was the norm when I was that age. I know many marriages of 40 or more years where they married at those ages. My 2 best friends of the time married at age 19, both still happily married well over 40 years later. I was married, had 2 children and had my own home at the age this silly young woman was.


----------



## BioFury

Diana7 said:


> Marrying in your late teens and early 20's was the norm when I was that age. I know many marriages of 40 or more years where they married at those ages. My 2 best friends of the time married at age 19, both still happily married well over 40 years later. I was married, had 2 children and had my own home at the age this silly young woman was.


Parents don't raise their children into adults these days. They get them to puberty, then let them figure it out from there.


----------



## sokillme

BioFury said:


> Parents don't raise their children into adults these days. They get them to puberty, then let them figure it out from there.


Half of them are still trying to figure it out themselves.


----------



## manfromlamancha

I agree with the comments about parents getting their kids to puberty and then letting them figure it out from there.

My view of many of the youngsters today (in the western world) is that they have (a) way more knowledge than we did at their ages thanks to the internet and information readily available, BUT (b) way less maturity which includes increased self-entitlement, a lack of humility, the inability to make sacrifices for others and sometimes a severe lack of respect. Their ability to love and sustain long term relationships is affected as a result.

This does not apply to all but definitely a majority.

Also, it has been said that one of the things that differentiates Christianity from some of the other faiths is its basis on "turn the other cheek", something that is definitely missing in today's youth. For them religion in general and Christianity in particular, is something to be ridiculed and poked fun at. So I would throw in a lack of faith too as a contributor to their behaviour. 

OK, I'm getting off my pulpit.


----------



## notmyrealname4

If you have to have a raunchy bachelor/ette party; you are not ready to get married.


----------



## samyeagar

Been away for a while, but thought I'd give an update. Wedding happened when it was supposed to. No outward repercussions, though I am not sure everything that has gone on between them privately.

The biggest fallout has been with my sister in law. Things have gotten a bit rocky with her husband as details emerged. Not really sure what will end up happening there.

Things with my wife and I are fine. She pushed boundaries and is aware that if she pushes them this far again, she will no longer be married to me.


----------



## oldtruck

samyeagar said:


> Been away for a while, but thought I'd give an update. Wedding happened when it was supposed to. No outward repercussions, though I am not sure everything that has gone on between them privately.
> 
> The biggest fallout has been with my sister in law. Things have gotten a bit rocky with her husband as details emerged. Not really sure what will end up happening there.
> 
> Things with my wife and I are fine. She pushed boundaries and is aware that if she pushes them this far again, she will no longer be married to me.


What details?


----------



## stillthinking

Wait a minute, did your wife’s sister take part in this....?



> but there are quite a few highly sexual things that can be done fully clothed on the dance floor, some that end up with the guy being relieved, and some of the girls were rather proud of themselves for being able to accomplish just that.


----------



## moon7

niceguy47460 said:


> If I was you I would be watching her phone for text messages about that weekend . All the women will probably be talking about what went on that weekend . You might find out your wife did more than what she is telling you .


Nah, if she had done anything more she wouldnt accuse the others because she would be afraid of any of them accusing her back. So i bet she said the truth.

If i wad OP i woudnt even bother checking anything. Now the other (married, in realtionship and them groom) men are in a way different situation.


----------



## snerg

samyeagar said:


> Been away for a while, but thought I'd give an update. Wedding happened when it was supposed to. No outward repercussions, though I am not sure everything that has gone on between them privately.
> 
> The biggest fallout has been with my sister in law. Things have gotten a bit rocky with her husband as details emerged. Not really sure what will end up happening there.
> 
> Things with my wife and I are fine. She pushed boundaries and is aware that if she pushes them this far again, she will no longer be married to me.


Can I ask two real dumb questions?
This is only because I am so ignorant.

Why did she push boundaries?
Why did she push boundaries so far?

I have read through this thread and I still don't understand why.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

snerg said:


> Can I ask two real dumb questions?
> This is only because I am so ignorant.
> 
> Why did she push boundaries?
> Why did she push boundaries so far?
> 
> I have read through this thread and I still don't understand why.


His wife or the SiL?


----------



## Mr. Nail

snerg said:


> Can I ask two real dumb questions?
> This is only because I am so ignorant.
> 
> Why did she push boundaries?
> Why did she push boundaries so far?
> 
> I have read through this thread and I still don't understand why.





phillybeffandswiss said:


> His wife or the SiL?


Doesn't matter the answer is the same.
Alcohol fueled low inhibition, peer pressure, and SEX. But mostly SEX.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Mr. Nail said:


> Doesn't matter the answer is the same.
> Alcohol fueled low inhibition, peer pressure, and SEX. But mostly SEX.


Actually, it does. There is an explanation for one and not the other. I could direct him to the posts. Yes, I know, but I was addressing his question.


----------



## snerg

phillybeffandswiss said:


> His wife or the SiL?


The wife.


----------



## syhoybenden

Winter is coming.


----------



## Openminded

snerg said:


> The wife.


Some women feel they're entitled to take advantage of nice guys.


----------



## arbitrator

Openminded said:


> *Some women feel they're entitled to take advantage of nice guys.*


*It's rather obvious that you've been talking with my RSXW!*


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## Rubix Cubed

samyeagar said:


> Been away for a while, but thought I'd give an update. Wedding happened when it was supposed to. No outward repercussions, though I am not sure everything that has gone on between them privately.
> 
> The biggest fallout has been with my sister in law. Things have gotten a bit rocky with her husband as details emerged. Not really sure what will end up happening there.
> 
> Things with my wife and I are fine. She pushed boundaries and is aware that if she pushes them this far again, she will no longer be married to me.


Hey Sam,
Any more updates or insights gained on this situation since your last post?
Daughter's marriage ok?
Sister in Law's ok?
Wife's boundaries improved?


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