# She doesn't get it



## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Hi everyone,

I wanted to share my story and am hoping for some sort of reality check. I don't have a good personal support system but I feel like I can relate to some of the people here.

One thing that bothers me about sharing this is that I cannot provide all details about our relationship or her side of the story. So what follows is a decidedly biased presentation of the situation....

My wife and I have been together about 12 years. Our relationship was never really very strong. Early in the relationship, she was clingy and would fly off the handle whenever I did something she didnt like. I specifically remember a time in college where she said something like "so what are we doing for dinner..." and I said "well I wasn't really planning on dinner with you tonight and was going to do something else instead". She was in her car in the parking lot of my apartment building...she got POed that I didn't want to spend the evening with her, slammed the car door, literally peeled rubber out of there.

I share that story as an intro to the idea that I am unable to share my feelings with her. It's not all her fault, I choose to be this way. There is certainly some personal accountibility for being this way. I am always afraid of her reactions. In every situation, I find myself analyizing what she wants out of it, and I suppress my true desires and always choose to do what I think she wants. That is a very frustrating existance to live.

So as I mentioned, our relationship was never strong. How could it be when I feel I could never tell her how I really feel about anything? I've never felt she was a friend of mine, and I've never expressed my needs, emotional, physical, or otherwise. I just dont really feel like she cares or that she would try to accomidate them. I've always felt like I was fighting her, and never felt like we were partners.

I also never really met her emotional needs. She is a very demanding housemate, and I felt like I worked my ass off to meet her housekeeping expectations. I always felt a bit exhausted and couldn't do all that, AND be the emotional partner she wanted. She was often very clear about what she wanted emotionally, and I never really tried to meet her needs.

We were married 6.5 years ago. 6 years ago, there was a guy at work she flirted with a lot. I never knew anything about it. I was not meeting her needs, didn't pay her attention. He was transfering out of the country and they had a going away party. I don't think the party was very big. My wife arranged things so she was out with him, and a few of her friends, and I was at home. 

They got drunk, danced together, made out (kissed and petted). She DROVE him back to the hotel, and claims she didn't go in. She didn't come home that night. She said she DROVE to her friends house to spend that night...because she was too drunk to drive home. I don't really believe the story she tells about how the night ended. I'm sure you can all imagine what I think really happened.

She told me about it the next day. But before she told me, she created a new email address, sent herself pictures of her and him from that night on this new email address, deleted those pictures from our camera, and also goggled his name. Of course those are things I discovered by snooping.

She moved out for a few months. We got back together. Our relationship never really changed. We did some half assed counseling. It didn't ever affect how we acted. She never really talked about why it happened, we never set up any boundries. I never dealt with any of my frustration or anger.

A few months ago, she got a new job. Frankly I was pretty happy about that...she was still working at the place where she had met the other guy (although he was long gone) and I certainly harbored some bad feelings about that place.

Our relationship was at a new low. We have 2 kids, 5 and 2 year olds. It's exhausting. I spent the summer working on a big backyard project. It's exhausting. I work a fairly competitive full time job. We went weeks without speaking to each other about anything other then the kids. She began spending more and more time on facebook. She got a smart phone and spent a lot of time texting, emailing, and facebooking from that. Whenever we went anywhere, we'd pile the kids in, I'd drive, and she'd have her phone out and be on facebook or texting by the time we got to the end of the driveway. She'd often stand in the kitching, looking at something on her phone, instead of paying attention to the kids or me.

So she had a going away party on her last day. I was the DD, and drove everyone around in our minivan. I was the sober guy in a group full of people drinking (no one was ridiculously drunk). I was tired, had been sick all week. There was one guy who she works with, who she talked to all the time at work, texted him and talked to him on facebook, etc a lot. I never really cared, cause I never really cared that much about our relationship. 

That night of her party, I felt like she spent all night talking to him. His wife was there even. But her and him would sit alone at the end of the table (at one bar) and at another bar they literally went to a different table to be alone and talk to each other. Finally, about 1 am, we go to a bar that she wants to dance at...and her and 2 other girls go out on the floor. At this point, I'm really a bit pissed and exhausted (we'd been out for 7 hours, and they had started even earlier then that) and am in no mood to dance. Of course her friend from work was...so he goes out to dance with them. Me = not happy...then I look up and he's walking back to hand me her purse so she can keep dancing. I snapped at that point.

I grabbed her, said "we are leaving" and we walked out. About 10 steps out of the bar I just blurted out "you know you cheated on me with these people, right??". When got in the car and I just unloaded on her. I started with "our relationship is SO F***ed UP" and proceeded from there. She was drunk and didn't say a single word back and I bet she dosen't remember anything I said.

So we slept in different beds that night and I was really unhappy about everything. I wanted to know how she felt about things, so I checked her text messages. I found that she was telling one of her friends about how embarrassed she was that we just left and I just yelled at her about everything. I felt like she didn't understand at all how upset I was about our relationship.

I also found a message from her coworker friend that said "i really like, not love, you a lot"...at 1:38 am. At that point I really felt like she was having an emotional affair (EA) with him.

Later that day I told her I wanted out of this relationship. There wasn't anything left in it. Later that night we talked, and I finally told her about how I felt like I couldn't trust her with my feelings. I told her I felt like she takes advantage of me. I told her I didn't think she'd ever change anything, that she'd always just do whatever she wanted to do and would never care about my feelings.

We stayed together...and had a "friend" pass away a few days later. She was not close to this friend but hung out with him as a group of friends. In the 12 years we were together, I think we saw this guy 3 times. Another of the group of friends, named Bruce, had always made me uneasy. He always seemed to look just an extra half second at my wife.

So a few days after telling my wife about how badly I felt our relatiionship was, Bruce came back to town for the funeral. My wife didn't even know where Bruce lived. She asked, and I said sure, to go out to dinner with Bruce the day before the funeral. So she was gone that night...the next night was the funeral. She went to that while I took care of the kids. After the funeral, a group of them went to their parents house (we are close with many of this group of people and these parents are almost like parents to my wife) and she got drunk and spent the night there. As soon as she texted me to say she was going to "stop by" there house, I knew she'd spend the night there. Of course Bruce was there. And for some reason something felt terribly wrong. 

I didn't sleep at all that night. I felt like I had been abandoned after finally telling her how I really felt about things. She came home the next day and I was obviously upset about it...she asked me about it and again I regressed and didn't tell her how I really felt. I just said "it bothered me". She never said sorry for not coming home, she never said thanks for taking care of the kids and everything else while I dealt with this situation.

Things went downhill fast after that. All my supressed anger bubbled up. I didn't talk to her, and when we did talk I just attacked. A few days later I get in her phone again.

I found an email to one of her friends where she said Bruce had called her that next day...and told her that he wanted to leave his wife to be with my wife!! 

Again I snapped. Obviously I was upset. I confronted her and she said "she can't control what other people say to her". Things went further down hill. I obsessed about her and Bruce, I obsessed about her and her friend from work, I obsessed about her 6 years ago. I stopped sleeping and eatting.

Eventually I got help. I went to a therapist who gave me some tools to let some of the anger out. I apologized to my wife. I told her I wanted to be with her. We decided to go to counseling.

I changed my view on things - I started trying to meet her emotional needs. Our relationship grew over the course of a month, and interestingly, it was really easy. I liked meeting her needs. Things were great. I was really happy. She was really happy. 

Unfortunately that's not the end of the story. She continued to text all the time on her password protected phone. She continued to spend large amounts of time on facebook. She continued to log out of her email and facebook whenever she wasn't using it. She spends large amounts of time on some craft website. I don't feel like she's shown any interest in understanding what my needs might be or how she could meet them. 

She also continued talking to Bruce. She would talk to him during and after work on the drive home. She would text him and talk to him on facebook. Of course, she says she just wants to be his friend...but I've also read emails where she admits she likes the attention he pays her, and that she knows I would be mad if I knew she was talking to him. She also said she's had "multiple conversations with him regarding his feelings for her". She never told me about anything with him...I had to find it by snooping. She didn't tell me she was still talking to him...but she did know it would upset me. Since then I had to snoop to find she was still talking to him and confronted her about it, and she says she's stopped. 

I was pretty much able to deal with that. During our last counseling session, we started to get into the thing with Bruce...then ran out of time. Since then, she's spent as much time as ever texting on her phone, spending time on the computer, etc. She knows it bothers me. 

Again the trust drained out of me. I don't think she'll do anything to ever protect my feelings, and I don't feel like I can share them with her. I've told her that and she gets defensive saying I'm blaming her for everything. She rationalized continuing her "friendship" with Bruce and that she wasn't hiding things from me...she just wasn't telling me things and she dosent see any problems with that. That was the moment the trust started to go away.

The last couple days I just shut down again. She's thrown me out of the house 3 times in the last week. She says she won't stand for being treated like sh1t...by which she means when I act distant and don't talk to her. She wants the wonderful relationship we had for the last month. I want it too...I want a better relationship though, one where she meets my needs too. 

Everytime we talk about this, it ends up being a "you always blame me" and a "what are you doing to change it, how are you making it better right now?" discussion. Lets of attacking and lots of defending.

She says I'm being irrational. She says I'm not trying. She says I'm treating her like sh1t. She thinks I'm going through a mental breakdown...because I went from perfect husband to I don't trust you husband.

*sigh* I just don't think she gets it...

(I'm impressed if anyone actually reads this!!)


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Talking to Bruce after he confessed his feelings is extremely disrespectful to you and the marriage. Craving for the attention of other men when married is extremely wrong. 

Get proofs(Key logger the sh1t out of her laptop and phone). Then confront in front of MC. Take it from there.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

> Unfortunately that's not the end of the story. She continued to text all the time on her password protected phone. She continued to spend large amounts of time on facebook. She continued to log out of her email and facebook whenever she wasn't using it. She spends large amounts of time on some craft website. I don't feel like she's shown any interest in understanding what my needs might be or how she could meet them.
> 
> She also continued talking to Bruce. She would talk to him during and after work on the drive home. She would text him and talk to him on facebook. Of course, she says she just wants to be his friend...but I've also read emails where she admits she likes the attention he pays her, and that she knows I would be mad if I knew she was talking to him. She also said she's had "multiple conversations with him regarding his feelings for her". She never told me about anything with him...I had to find it by snooping. She didn't tell me she was still talking to him...but she did know it would upset me. Since then I had to snoop to find she was still talking to him and confronted her about it, and she says she's stopped.
> 
> I was pretty much able to deal with that. During our last counseling session, we started to get into the thing with Bruce...then ran out of time. Since then, she's spent as much time as ever texting on her phone, spending time on the computer, etc. She knows it bothers me.


She is having an EA (emotional affair). She's spending so much time communicating with another man instead of using that time to fix things with you. 

You cannot force her to change so you have a choice to make. Either continue being in an emotionally abusive marriage where you accept being cuckolded by your so called wife, or move on and file for divorce.

Your wife has no incentive to change because she believes that you are not man enough to leave her. For this reason she can have her cake and eat it because you have allowed this situation to continue.

Man up and make a choice that you can live with and will give you hope for a better tomorrow. Pain is inevitable but misery is optional.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

She apparently cheats and lies to you anytime she wants. You really need to divorce her. She is absolutely toxic to you and will destroy your well being. This sounds like this was an arranged marriage. Don't waste the rest of your life with this woman and all of her drama.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

serial cheater, unlikely to change

divorce is likely your best option


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Saki,

Your wife is now a serial cheater. She has no love or repesct for your feelings.

Why are you continuing to live wth her obvious cheatng and her blatant disregard for you? Not coming home once is reason to divorce , doing it several times is a total slap in the face.

She is emotionally abusing you. She is a serial cheater.

Let bruce have her, let him live ith a cheater who can't be trusted.

Divorce her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Oh, and the reason you don't open up to her, isn't that you have a problem, it's that your gut is tellong you that you can't trust her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Saki said:


> I share that story as an intro to the idea that I am unable to share my feelings with her. It's not all her fault, I choose to be this way. There is certainly some personal accountibility for being this way. I am always afraid of her reactions. In every situation, I find myself analyizing what she wants out of it, and I suppress my true desires and always choose to do what I think she wants. That is a very frustrating existance to live.


Yes it is. You should stop. She probably (subconsciously) wants you to stop. Many women will make unreasonable demands or have unreasonable reactions in order to fitness test men. If you are strong enough to stand up to her, then you pass. If you cave to her demands, or try to avoid any conflict, you fail. Her respect will either grow or shrink according to your actions. You should stop worrying about her and start worrying about yourself and your kids.



Saki said:


> She was often very clear about what she wanted emotionally, and I never really tried to meet her needs.


Right. You've focused on the wrong things. You spend so much time failing her fitness tests that you don't have energy left to meet her actual needs. She doesn't worry about your needs because you aren't meeting hers, and you haven't displayed high value by refusing to jump through her hoops.



Saki said:


> 6 years ago, there was a guy at work ... There was one guy who she works with ... Of course Bruce was there. And for some reason something felt terribly wrong.


So she's had at least three affairs during your marriage. The odds of these affairs being physical approach 100%. A woman doesn't spend the night away from home with another man so that she can talk with him.

And you've accepted these affairs. You've even apologized to your wife because of the affairs. You have no boundaries.

You have two choices. First, you accept being cuckolded. If this is the case, do to the doctor and get on some anti-depressants. Stop snooping in her phone/email/Facebook. If you find evidence of an affair, you'll just end up apologizing to her for finding it. Second, refuse to accept being married to the town bicycle.

If you refuse to accept being cuckolded, then you have to be serious. No more empty threats like you made in the past. Put up boundaries and be serious. If she crosses the line, you file for divorce. Go ahead and talk to a lawyer because you'll likely have to file. She will test your resolve.

Currently, you are in the middle. You don't like being cuckolded. But, you're not ready to stop it. You've got to get off the fence.



Saki said:


> The last couple days I just shut down again. She's thrown me out of the house 3 times in the last week. She says she won't stand for being treated like sh1t...by which she means when I act distant and don't talk to her. She wants the wonderful relationship we had for the last month. I want it too...I want a better relationship though, one where she meets my needs too.


I don't blame her. You told her that you accept her cuckolding you and you'll try to better serve her in the future. You've made no demands of her. She gets to have her affairs and come home to a husband who's busting his butt harder than ever for her. Who wouldn't want that?

As for her throwing you out, how did that happen? Is she much bigger than you? Did she literally throw you through the air out of the door? Or did she tell you to leave and you put your head down and obeyed? If it's the latter, stop it. It's your house. It will take a deputy sheriff with a court order to remove you.



Saki said:


> Everytime we talk about this, it ends up being a "you always blame me" and a "what are you doing to change it, how are you making it better right now?" discussion. Lets of attacking and lots of defending.
> 
> She says I'm being irrational. She says I'm not trying. She says I'm treating her like sh1t. She thinks I'm going through a mental breakdown...because I went from perfect husband to I don't trust you husband.


You should have another conversation. Tell her that you accept that you've been a bad husband in the past. And she's been a bad wife. But you're giving her the option to continue in a new and improved marriage. Lay out what you're willing to do. This will probably be a list of what you're already doing. Then lay out the list of what you expect from her. First on this list will be to stop having affairs. Tell her that you're not making any demands on her that you're not willing to make of yourself. Tell her she has to get off Facebook, but you'll get off too. Going transparent in your communications is a two-way street.

If she balks at that, then she's just trying to have her cake and eat it too. At that point, you've got to be willing to divorce.



Saki said:


> *sigh* I just don't think she gets it...


She's acting logically. She wants you to keep her house and she wants to sleep with other men. All her behavior can be explained by that rationale. You're the one being inconsistent. You don't like what she's doing, but you can't bring yourself to stop her. I don't blame her for being confused.

P.S. You need to expose your wife's affair to Bruce's wife. Whether you divorce or not, she deserves to know. And it will likely help to end the affair from that side.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

We arent talking about about red flags here, we are talking screaming neon flashing banners everywhere. 

You have no idea how far gone this really is.

I suspect you will try, and she will let you. Why wouldn't she? Cake is good and she feels entitled to these affairs. Your marriage died a longtime ago. Her behavior is a direct result of her feeling like that. 

I'd suspect she's just fishing for a new vine to grab onto before she lets you know she let go of yours awhile ago. In the meantime, your the villian. A role you have been cast in for awhile. It sounds like you've been reading your lines right on cue.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

This is hard to hear.

She tells me it's my fault. I won't give her a chance. That there is something wrong with me.

Almostrecovered, it was interesting to read thru the definitions you have posted on your noob FAQ. Rugsweeping in particular hit home.

Let me ask you guys this...if there was no sex involved, which is what she swears by......


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Saki said:


> This is hard to hear.
> 
> She tells me it's my fault. I won't give her a chance. That there is something wrong with me.
> 
> ...


Stop right there.

Your actions are your responsibility.

Her choice to cheat is 100% hers. 100%. 

She is wrong if she tells you that you not giving her something emotionally justifies her cheating. It doesn't.

It woud justify her asking and demanding you change or get therapy or do marriage counselling.

Her having an affair is her choice and and direct attack agsinst you. It is equivalent of her choosing to physically assault you. It is a deliberate attack against you and the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

If she claims there was no sex, then ask for her to take a polygraph.

Btw. No man offers to leave his wife over no sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

As bryanp is so aptly fond of saying 'She doesn't respect you. If you don't respect yourself, who will?'. 

Women don't respect a man they can walk over, a doormat, and frankly that is what you are. Do you wonder then why your wife humiliates you and cheats on you with such abandon?

The question is, do you like being her doormat? If not, what are you going to do about it?


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Saki said:


> She tells me it's my fault. I won't give her a chance. That there is something wrong with me.......


This is common, its called gaslighting. Read up on it.



Saki said:


> Let me ask you guys this...if there was no sex involved, which is what she swears by......


Of course she does. She will also look you in the eye and swear on your childrens lives that she never kissed him right after you saw her do it.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

I want to R. Primarily because I can't imagine the thought of my 2 year old son growing up calling another man daddy.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Saki said:


> I want to R. Primarily because I can't imagine the thought of my 2 year old son growing up calling another man daddy.


But her actions say quite loud that she doesn't gives a rat's a$$ about R. 

So you are willing to accept living in a one sided open marriage out of fear that your 2 year old will call another man daddy? Do you realize how big the pool of men who are willing to take on a woman with kids is? And even if she found one and married him, how long do you think it will be before she starts treating him like she's treating you? Your wife's got serious issues that make her a very undesirable choice for any sane man looking to get married.

Realize that you are not the only one to have a choice to continue with the marriage or not, your wife has also that choice, and she can exercise it anytime she wants to.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Saki said:


> I want to R. Primarily because I can't imagine the thought of my 2 year old son growing up calling another man daddy.


If you want to stay in a relationship with your wife, you have to decide what kind of relationship it will be. You can either accept your wife cuckolding you in exchange for cleaning her house and having exclusive access to your son, or you stop your wife's adultery.

The only way to stop your wife's adultery is to be willing to lose her. You can't clean the kitchen so well that she stops screwing other men. You can't give her a good enough back rub that will make her forget about Bruce. Frankly, if you're not willing to divorce, then you're just complaining about her behavior. And your wife obviously doesn't care how loudly or how often you complain about her behavior.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Saki said:


> I want to R. Primarily because I can't imagine the thought of my 2 year old son growing up calling another man daddy.


Personally, I would rather my son call another man daddy than to see me as a cuckold.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

So, I'm thinking about how to pursue R

My idea so far is a marriage agreement. Similar to what you said PHT. Draw a line in the sand and say "going forward this is how it is...."

My question is this though - how much of the past do I ask her to dig into? She clearly does not understand the concept of EA. I can try to explain it to her, but she'll tell me I am crazy and unreasonable. And even if I am telling her, it won't cause her to understand it. The only way she'll UNDERSTAND is if she learns it herself.

So would it be unreasonable to, for instance, insist she read some books on the subject?


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Saki,

Look at the colorfully highlighted links under morituri's post. Those explain a lot about what is going on right now and what may happen in the future.

Second, I suggest you look up a website called Married Man's Sex Life written by Athol Kay. His blog and his book are a treasure trove of information that can help you in your current relationship or a future one.

Third, Shaggy is absolutely correct. A man does not offer to leave his wife if there isn't sex involved. If they were to get together though it won't work out. Less than 3% of relationships involving cheating spouses stick. He couldn't trust her and she couldn't trust him. So, your son probably wouldn't be calling him daddy for long.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

So

In pursuit of R, in still am unsure of what to do about the past.

Let me assume there was PA with Bruce. Do you guys feel I need to force her to admit something or prove otherwise? Or do I just draw that line in the sand and move from there?

I guess if I don't actively resolve the issue, it comes back to haunt me...


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Saki said:


> So, I'm thinking about how to pursue R
> 
> My idea so far is a marriage agreement. Similar to what you said PHT. Draw a line in the sand and say "going forward this is how it is...."


It is called a boundary and it is your 'fence'. If she chooses to cross it, then you'd better have 'a pair' to carry out the consequences which means filing for divorce. Otherwise you'll look like a pathetic caricature of a man which will further erode whatever little respect she has left for you.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

Saki- here is how YOU are going to pursue R.

You're going to demand that she tell you whether or not she had sex with Bruce. She'll say "no, no sex." You will go back and forth this way a few times before finally accepting her word that she never had sex with Bruce, even though deep down inside you know she did.

Next, you're going to insist that she stop acting the way she does and being disrespectful to you. She will ask you to explain how, exactly, she is being disrespectful to you. You will become flustered and offer up a couple of narrowly specific examples of things she has done that upset you. She will hem and haw, and then agree to try really hard not to do those specific actions to you again.

You will breathe a sigh of relief, thanking God that you are now solidly on the road to Reconciliation.

Your wife will continue to be on Facebook constantly, and being very careful not to leave it open where you can see her exchanging messages with other men. She will maintain the password protection on her phone, so that you can't see her call history and the numbers of other men she is talking to.

Eventually, you will realize that NOTHING HAS REALLY CHANGED. This will cause you immense frustration, and you will post messages on TAM wondering what happened.

That is what will happen.

What SHOULD happen is-

You should read through every single link posted under Morituri's comments and take some time to understand them. Reconciliation, which is what you want, doesn't just magically happen because one spouse says "darn it, this marriage needs to survive, so we're gonna have us a Reconciliation Party!" 

Reconciliation happens when both parties agree to work hard on rebuilding a broken union. In your writings, you have not even remotely suggested that your wife wants to fix the marriage. And why should she? She has things going her way. You pay the bills, and other men provide the thrills. And you continue to let her do it.

If you really want to fix your marriage, the first thing you need to do is set some boundaries.

Oh, LOOK! A link called Boundaries! Right there, under Morituri's posting! Quick- go read that and understand it.

Then start the process of getting your wife off of Facebook and unlocking her cell phone for you.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Like Beowulf and NotLikeYou advised you, click on the links below my signature. Granted they may look like cheap, seedy old Las Vegas neon signs, but the information they contain is priceless and can change your life for the better.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

imo, the ONLY way to get R is to make a stand and say you will not tolerate her infidelity any longer in this marriage and present her with D papers

she will then do one of three things-

1) accept that she wants a divorce
2) say she wants to R but does not do what she should to R and has false R and continues affairs (most likely in your case based on your description)
3) wants R and does what she needs to 


what does she need to do?


1) Quit her job since the OM is there
2) Tell you the entire truth of ALL of her affairs, NO trickle truth
3) writes a no contact letter to OM's
4) Is completely transparent and allows you access to all passwords and her phone and tells you of her whereabouts, IOW her privacy is null and void. At the same time without telling her you verify her actions thru keyloggers, VAR's and GPS, etc.
5) Is completely remorseful and is willing to accept 100% of the blame for the affairs and will help you in any way she can to allow you to heal and know it will take 2-5 years or longer.
6) without telling her you expose the OM to his wife and give her proof of their affair, if or when she finds out she will not look to protect her OM


now, based on what you say I seriously doubt she will do this, so be prepared to have your marriage end


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Well I have called several divorce attorney offices just now. It's lunch hour and I didn't have much luck. Will continue to pursue.

I now believe, as many of you have suggested, my wife and I have been in limbo since the first PA. 6 long years.

I am reading about how to set boundries. The concept that is not immediately apparent to me is the idea that I am setting the boundries on myself and not trying to control her...because it feels an awful lot like trying to control her actions is exactly what I want to do.

My counselor told me "You can only control what you do" and I have faith I'll eventually figure the idea of boundries out.

I feel like a god damn fool


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## collegemom (Dec 7, 2011)

You have a 2 year old son you are worried about but do you realize you are teaching him really bad behavior? You need to be a strong Dad for your son. Otherwise, he'll allow people, man or woman, to treat him poorly. You need to teach your kids how to be strong. He knows who his Dad is, and he will never call anyone else Daddy. Man up, have some self worth and who cares if your abusive wife comes back. You're young and can you really imagine yourself in 15years?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Hate say it, but are you sure the kid is yours? She has had a series of PAs and pretty much a consistent negative attitude toward you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Regarding paternaty, (sp?), I've had the same sort of thought but both kids look way too much like me to not be mine.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Yesterday when I was leaving I told her I'd be staying with my mom for a while. She just emailed me asking if that was still the plan.

Is this too harsh of a reply? (q=are you staying at your moms?)

"No. 

I am not going to leave my house because you have a problem with the distance I feel as a result of your actions.

If you don’t like it, you can leave but you aren’t taking the kids."


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Saki said:


> My question is this though - how much of the past do I ask her to dig into?


Dig as far as you need to. Some people can look at the evidence, accept that sex happened, and don't need the particulars, or an admission from the disloyal spouse. Some people need specifics. If you need specifics, it will do you no good to go forward while your ignorance gnaws at you. Decide what you need to know and don't move forward until you're satisfied.



Saki said:


> She clearly does not understand the concept of EA. I can try to explain it to her, but she'll tell me I am crazy and unreasonable. And even if I am telling her, it won't cause her to understand it. The only way she'll UNDERSTAND is if she learns it herself.
> 
> So would it be unreasonable to, for instance, insist she read some books on the subject?


Her ignorance may well be a defense mechanism. But this is where you can define unacceptable behaviors. She may claim that she doesn't have any feelings for the man she sends 2,000 texts to in a month. But she can't claim she isn't sending him 2,000 texts.

So decide what you want. I would suggest no communication with Bruce, period. I would also suggest no more Facebook. And tell her you'll be reviewing her phone usage. Check her logs. Get detailed billing on her phone. If she calls a number at 4am, something is up.

And tell her that you may revise your requirements any time something comes up.

And, as always, tell her that she is free to do the same to you. You are both transparent to each other.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Dude she is a serial cheater. Ask her this. "Do you want things to be like they were the last month? Fine, lets schedule a polygraph test. It will only confirm everything you've been telling me." She should jump at the chance.

If she says no.......file for divorce. She has definitely cheated.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Saki said:


> I am reading about how to set boundries. The concept that is not immediately apparent to me is the idea that I am setting the boundries on myself and not trying to control her...because it feels an awful lot like trying to control her actions is exactly what I want to do.
> 
> My counselor told me "You can only control what you do" and I have faith I'll eventually figure the idea of boundries out.
> 
> I feel like a god damn fool


The concept is a bit counter-intuitive. You do, indeed, want to influence her behavior. The problem is, you can't do it directly.

Look at it with your toddler. You can force him to do something. You can pick him up and carry him to where you want him to be, or take away something you don't want him to have. But soon, you will have to change your approach. Soon, you will have to lay out rules and consequences. If he doesn't put away his toys, he doesn't get to ride his bicycle. Then, it's up to him to decide whether he wants to ride his bicycle or not. They key to being effective is finding a consequence that is very unattractive. Perhaps your kid doesn't care about riding his bicycle much. He will misbehave more often. But if you tell him that he will go to bed early for a month, that's so severe that he may never test your resolve. A much less effective style of parenting is asking him to put away his clothes, and then if he doesn't, asking him again. He will ignore you. And for good reason.

Apply this same reasoning to your wife. You can't lock her up in a tower away from all men. But you can tell her that any misbehavior will meet with severe consequences, like being a single mom.

That's what boundaries are. A set of rules that your wife understands. If she chooses to violate your boundaries, she will be choosing the consequences. All you will be doing is keeping your promise to her regarding your actions.

And keep in mind that some women, men, and children, just don't care about consequences. You can't influence them into behaving the way you want. We all have free will. If your wife is one of these, then you will have no choice but to accept her actions or divorce. However, most people are logical and will try to avoid negative consequences.

Good luck.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Saki said:


> Yesterday when I was leaving I told her I'd be staying with my mom for a while. She just emailed me asking if that was still the plan.
> 
> Is this too harsh of a reply? (q=are you staying at your moms?)
> 
> ...


I think it's fine.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

I wish I could get in to see a lawyer today. I want to do this tonight. Another night unresolved is going to be toxic.

I want to be able to put the D papers down right in front of her. Saying "well I called a bunch of lawyers today and I'm waiting for them to call me back" isn't quite the same.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Why do you let her throw you out of YOUR house? Man up, dude.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Saki said:


> Yesterday when I was leaving I told her I'd be staying with my mom for a while. She just emailed me asking if that was still the plan.
> 
> Is this too harsh of a reply? (q=are you staying at your moms?)
> 
> ...


Sorry, hadn't gotten to this post yet. Good job. But don't bother explaining. Just say "No. I'm not leaving my house. You can leave if you want, but you aren't taking the kids."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

btw, a boundary is what you tell yourself YOU will do if your partner crosses a line that you determine you can't live with. An easy example is yelling. You inform her (you don't have to, but it helps) that, if she yells at you, you will leave the room until she can talk without yelling. Then, if she yells, anyway, you leave. It's often advised that you leave the room the first time; if she follows you, you leave the house for 30 minutes. If when you come back, she yells again, you leave the house overnight. If when you come back, she yells yet again, you leave for a week. More, you just go ahead and separate. In other words, you have a consequence to her action. She can continue her actions if she wants to, that's her choice; but she will get your consequence if she does.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

OMG her responses to that email...

It's so easy to see how is trying to manipulate me. And it's so easy to see how setting boundries solves this.

"Do you really think it's a healthy atmosphere for our children, honestly?"

"I am just asking for a couple of days away ... when you wanted that it was fine for you to leave ... now that I am asking you for a break for a couple of days it's unreasonable?"

That last one was very interesting. I wrote back "I didn't say it was unreasonable, I said no"

She's NEVER heard me say no to her before.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Saki said:


> I wish I could get in to see a lawyer today. I want to do this tonight. Another night unresolved is going to be toxic.
> 
> I want to be able to put the D papers down right in front of her. Saying "well I called a bunch of lawyers today and I'm waiting for them to call me back" isn't quite the same.


Internet. Find a sample divorce settlement agreement. Add names, print. Even if you saw a lawyer today, I doubt you walk out with the papers. They have to make believe they are custom drafting them to justify the rediculous fee. Truth is they are all templates, insert name, cut out this, add this... print. charge thousands, win.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Saki said:


> I wish I could get in to see a lawyer today. I want to do this tonight. Another night unresolved is going to be toxic.
> 
> I want to be able to put the D papers down right in front of her. Saying "well I called a bunch of lawyers today and I'm waiting for them to call me back" isn't quite the same.


If you really want to have papers ready, you can always use a DIY website for some preliminary papers.

But I don't necessarily think you need papers tonight. Go ahead and lay out your proposal for how you both will behave in your new and improved marriage. If she balks, you can simply say that you'll have the initial papers for her to sign in a few days.

And this is very important. Try to remain passive and calm. Don't get worked up. Don't cry or yell. Just tell her that you're willing to forgive her affairs and work with her to improve your marriage, or you can divorce. The choice is hers. If she chooses divorce, act like you're totally fine with that decision.

Sometimes the most intransigent disloyals suddenly change their stripes when the loyal, doormat, spouse suddenly gains a backbone and starts to leave. Google Marriage Busters and 180 for some tips on how to behave.

Good luck.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sounds like you could use some practice saying no. Spoiled women are the worst.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Saki said:


> I wish I could get in to see a lawyer today. I want to do this tonight. Another night unresolved is going to be toxic.
> 
> I want to be able to put the D papers down right in front of her. Saying "well I called a bunch of lawyers today and I'm waiting for them to call me back" isn't quite the same.


Get some business cards from different lawyers and leave them on your desk, dresser or whatever so she can find them.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

I was able to make an appointment for this afternoon. She continues to try to manipulate me into not coming home tonight.

It's an incredible feeling to do what I want to. I can see exactly where I would have said "oh ok honey I'll do it your way" in the past.....


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> If you really want to have papers ready, you can always use a DIY website for some preliminary papers.
> 
> But I don't necessarily think you need papers tonight. Go ahead and lay out your proposal for how you both will behave in your new and improved marriage. If she balks, you can simply say that you'll have the initial papers for her to sign in a few days.
> 
> ...


Exactly, remain calm. Think about it, are you more intimidate by someone who stands in your face and thrashes about emotionally or someone who looks you directly in the eye with a stone face and TELLS you how it is going to go?

YOU are taking control of YOUR life here. She screwed up big time and YOU get to decide how this goes. She can just accept all of what you demand and come along for the ride or she can get left behind. BTW, people hate to get left behind.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

do know that your spoiled wife will most likely throw a hissy fit and start blameshifting and gaslighting the crap outta you. STAY CALM and just state your intentions and what you require.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Saki said:


> OMG her responses to that email...
> 
> It's so easy to see how is trying to manipulate me. And it's so easy to see how setting boundries solves this.
> 
> ...


Awesome. Honestly, knowing is half the battle. Once you read up on a few fitness tests and manipulation techniques that women use, you'll be amazed at how often you can recognize them "in the field." And once you can recognize them, you can routinely start to pass them. That's what you just did. Nice job.

If she really wants a break from you, she's free to leave. The door's open.

As an aside, another way to pass a fitness test is to ignore it. I wouldn't ignore the direct question that was in her first text about whether you were staying or leaving, but you could always ignore a text that is simply meant to intimidate or manipulate.

Good luck.

Also, check Shamwow's thread on this board. It's an excellent example of a guy getting blindsided with his wife's infidelity and then moving quickly from cuckolded, beta, niceguy to divorced, confident, alpha.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

in fact it would be a good idea to have a VAR on your person when you confront tonight in case she tries to call the police with trumped up charges and lies


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

I'll check that stuff out.

I can clearly see the gaslighting for what it is now. In the past it would have confused me and made me waiver. No effect whatsoever now.

The fit she throws could be huge. While I certainly do not discount the conclusions you guys have come to regarding her as a serial cheater, I do believe that she wants a happy marriage that fulfills her needs. I could see her reading the "proposal" and calming agreeing to it.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Saki said:


> I could see her reading the "proposal" and calming agreeing to it.


Great. That's the best case scenario. But as the saying goes, "Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst."


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Saki,

Stop by Walmart at lunch or on the way home and buy 2 vars.

The first you need to have with you tonight when you talk with her. It's first possibly to protect you, but it's secbd purpose is for you to go back and listen to later after the heat of the moment. Listen to her, what she says, and how she says it.

The second var is for in her car. It's to pickup the call she is going to make to Bruce or whomever she is currently leaning on. You want to know what she says about you,and the plans they make.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

I really am not sure I am comfortable with the idea of wiretapping her....that feels to me like line crossing


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Saki said:


> I really am not sure I am comfortable with the idea of wiretapping her....that feels to me like line crossing



You need to protect yourself for several reasons


1) it will help prevent false R, she can go thru the motions of appeasing you to stay married but continue her affair
2) if she does agree to R terms then you can help yourself heal by verifying her actions, the more you get bored with her everyday stuff the more you feel better about trusting her
3) if it gets nasty, the var will protect yourself from false claims


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Many spoiled women will cry Abuse! when their Nice Guy starts to stand up for themselves. The VAR in your pocket will protect you if she calls the police tonight to make you leave. Yes, they do this. Be prepared.

While you're preparing to head home, take a look at this website:
No More Mr. Nice Guy! - The Nice Guy Syndrome


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

I had found the Mr Nice Guy website and began reading the book. Only got a page or two into it but I already see how it applies.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Use it this afternoon to empower yourself, knowing that it is the RIGHT thing to do, to stand up for yourself. And whatever you do, never leave your house again. Don't give her any legal avenue to keep you out.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

It is NOT ILLEGAL to record 2 person conversations that you are involved in.

Get your head out of your a$$, what else do you need that would prove to you that your W is capable of... better yet, did you think she was capable of what you have already seen and heard? and trust me, you have only discovered the tip of that iceburg... 

Now you want to trust that she wont do something or say something to you that is well beyond anything you thought was possible??? You have no idea. PROTECT YOURSELF.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Saki said:


> I'll check that stuff out.
> 
> I can clearly see the gaslighting for what it is now. In the past it would have confused me and made me waiver. No effect whatsoever now.
> 
> The fit she throws could be huge. While I certainly do not discount the conclusions you guys have come to regarding her as a serial cheater, I do believe that she wants a happy marriage that fulfills her needs. I could see her reading the "proposal" and calming agreeing to it.


It's called cake eating, you know, from the expression of having their cake and eating it too. She wants the security of marriage, but be able to play around with other men.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Printing marriage agreement...Mr Nice guy book...some other stuff.

Just got back from lawyer. Maybe he's just after my money, but even my lawyer said she doesn't respect my feelings. I mean really, the lawyer said that. Unexpected to say the least.

She called my mom and convinced my mom I am having a nervous breakdown. I have to head over to moms now and explain I'm not crazy. Or at least I don't think I am.

The situations I've found myself in over the last week are just so bizarre...


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Saki,

Your not crazy, in fact you seem to have been living in a world of crazy and only now are you seeing lucidly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

I'm sorry to say this, but, your wife does not respect you or your marriage. She's probably with you because it's convenient and gives her some stability. She doesn't seem to be willing to meet any of your needs or protect your marriage at all. She sounds incredibly selfish. It sounds also like you've been really worn down and ground down by being in this relationship with a narcissistic and immature woman (forgive me, that is how she sounds in your post). It also doesn't really sound like you are getting much out of this relationship. Your love for her isn't passionate, your needs are not being met, you do not sound happy. Don't stay in the marriage just because it is convenient. It really sounds like she is not going to change at all and you deserve better than to be treated badly. I mean, you talked to her about this and she still wouldn't respect your feelings. Staying with her for the sake of your children is not a good idea. Gather evidence by surveillance, find some proof of her affairs, file for divorce and joint custody. You can still have a good relationship with your kids, even if you don't have a marriage with your wife.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Saki, you should take care of this business yourself and make it a point to not involve other members of your family.
Your wife has been taking you for a ride since day one so once you unload her, then you can ask for help from your relatives.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

She called my mom saying I wasn't being myself, and that she thought something was really wrong with me. Also that she had asked me to leave and I wouldn't. I would go stay with my mom if I left. I didn't bring my mom into it. Obviously, my mom then called me. There is a distant history of suicide in my family and the way she framed it, my mom was very worried.

When I went and talked to my mom, I showed her my boundry list. I asked her if there was a single thing on there that was unreasonable or irrational. She agreed there was not. 

We just got done with our talk. She didn't want to talk, but I insisted we do it anyway. I started by taking full responsibility for my shortcomings in terms of meeting her emotional needs. I then explained that I have the right to have my expectations met in our marriage, and shared the list with her. I told her that she did not have to decide right away, but that if she could not promise to meet those expectations, I would file for divorce. I told her I had met with a lawyer who had papers filled out and was waiting for the go ahead.

Her initial reaction was "i dont have anything to say" and she tried to go to bed. I went about my business and moments later she came to talk it over.

It was so much easier then I'd have thought. She went through a bunch of fitness tests and manipulation techiques. Crying, agreeing to divorce, "you are painting me like a criminal". Now that I know about those...they are so easy to see through.

I stayed calm, listened to her, acknowledged her feelings, and sent a consistant message thoroughout: if you cannot meet my expectations in this marriage, I am not going to continue to be married. I made sure it all came back to that, in a calm and diliberate fashion.

She seems to have begrudgenly agreed to things. A few sticking points, which I held pretty firm to.

All in all, I feel a hell of a lot better and I don't really care what happens from here. 

I intend to work on my mr nice guy condition and generally improve my life. If she comes along for the ride, great. If she doesn't, that's great too.

Thank you guys for the help.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Expect her to shi1t test you tomorrow after a nights sleep.

You're finally showing a spine, and she isn't going to just sit by and allow that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

I asked her to provide full text logs to prove she was no longer talking to Bruce. That was the big sticking point in our discussion earlier. She kept talking about how I was going to freak out when I saw them because of the volume of them, and spun about 7 other reasons not to show them to me.

She just delivered them to me along with the message that she had not broken off contact with him and had texted him a number of times since I asked her to stop, and she promised to stop, and she told me she had stopped.

It was very hard to keep calm about that but I also didn't feel like flying off the handle was going to do any good. So I asked that we shelf the issue for a while. She's upstairs flipping out, the whole "my life sucks" routine.

I guess I'm not sure what to think of this. She lied. She lied about not lying. Everything in me wants to go up and yell and scream at her about this.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

So now what? 

Suggestin: tell her to write a NC letter to Bruce tonight and together you will send it tomorrow am.

If she fights or balks, explan that she s clearly choosing to end the marrage then,nun favor of Bruce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm not sure I want to push for action tonight.

I have an appointment with my therapist friday. I'd like to wait till after that appointment before I do anything. Then on monday we have an appointment with our MC...that might be a better place to bring it back up.

I just went up there and calmly told her she has a decision to make about her behavior. That the lying is so much worse then the fact she was texting Bruce. I told her I can't control her actions, but I will not accept lying any more. She does not get any more chances.

At this point I am leaning toward D. But I want to give this a little time to marinate before filing.

You guys were 100% right about everything. It's just crazy. She told me again and again she had stopped talking to him. Oh man. I just can't even believe it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Saki said:


> I want to R. Primarily because I can't imagine the thought of my 2 year old son growing up calling another man daddy.


If/when you get a divorce make sure you establish 50/50 custody immediately. You children will need you in their live.

As for them calling another man daddy.. .it's not going to happen if you do not let it.

You are the only daddy they have. You can explain this to your wife and your kids. They call any other guy in their mother's life by his name.

My step kids call me by my first name. When they were younger they called me "Miss Ele". My son calls my husband, his step-dad, by his first name.

If you step up and parent your children, you cannot be replaced.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> If you step up and parent your children, you cannot be replaced.


Thank you that is excellent advice. Until now I had not stepped up and therefore felt I would be easily replaced. 

Although I do happen to be a wonderful dad, or at least I sure try.

Right now I feel really confused. Not like when I found out about the first PA...not hurt. Just confused. My whole world has shifted.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Saki said:


> Thank you that is excellent advice. Until now I had not stepped up and therefore felt I would be easily replaced.
> 
> Although I do happen to be a wonderful dad, or at least I sure try.
> 
> Right now I feel really confused. Not like when I found out about the first PA...not hurt. Just confused. My whole world has shifted.


I know that confused feeling. Dispite that it sounds like you are doing about as well as you can. You have finally stoped stuffing things under the rug and faced reality. It's a shock. And it's a good thing.

As long as you do not slip back to your old ways, your life is about to change dramatically. Either your marriage is going to really change or your are going to be divorced.

By the way, do not move out of the home your son lives in. You need to stay there to secure you 50/50 (or as close as possible) custody of him.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

EG- great advise, I hope other see that.

So many stay in an unhealthy marriage for the kids instead of the marriage, and the kid still suffer.

There are a few books on this issue and one can still be a *great parent* even a better parent with out the cheating spouse sucking out the energy of the loyal spouse.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

This morning I received a healthy dose of "what do you want me to do about it" "nothing I do is going to matter" and "it's not enough time to change". Also got some "see this is why we can't talk about it, you get so mad". Guilt shifting, minimizing, rationalizing...it was all there.

I actually stayed pretty calm and laid down that if there aren't drastic changes in her behavior by wednesday of next week I am filing. I said again and again, I am not telling her what to do, she can behave how she wants. I don't think I was strong enough on the idea that her behavor will have consequences though...would like to go back and make sure that got fully stated.

This woman could be a great mother and great partner. There is potential. I still consider R. She needs to get out of the fog.

But D is a much much morely likely occurance then it was yesterday at this time.

Again thank you all for looking at the truth. I said in my first response, it was hard to hear. It's hard to be told you are living in a world built around lies and the person you've put so much trust and faith in cares nothing for your feelings. Mistakes...I can live with someone making mistakes. But these are not mistakes, this is behavior.

It's also tough to be shown that by being a coward I allowed all of this to happen.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

aside from the fact that there was still contact what did the texts reveal?


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

I only saw the log of when texts and calls were placed. Have not seen the contents.

Her and Bruce have been in a circle of friends for a long time (out of that group, like 4 of them are dead due to drugs). Another of that group, in fact a close family friend who is like a brother to her, just got admitted for alcoholism and is going through detox. She says they corresponded regarding that. Do I believe her? My point of view is now aligned with the way you guys see this situation...so I do not need to bother telling you if I believe her....

It is funny but looking at the dates, they totally correspond to the time I started to withdrawl and say I couldn't trust her. Almost down to the minute. And of course she told me over and over that her and Bruce weren't talking and I was being irrational, delusional, and needed to go seek help. 

She sent me the text and call logs as excel files and I know she spent some time at least looking through them. I would not put it past her to have editted them out so she could put a rational story behind her activity. If we pursue R, one of the first steps will be taking a look at those source files and determining if she editted them. If I pursue D, I don't care so I'm not going to bother now.

I got a VAR last night...only to realize when I was going to start it up that it didn't come with batteries. It would be interesting to go back and listen to the number of strategies she came up with to avoid showing me those text and call logs.

Shes so deep in the fog she's dragging lots of other people into it with her. My mom saw right through her fog when I explained the situation. She's also dragged her dad into it and several of her really close friends. Are there any effective strategies for helping someone out of their fog, or is it just a matter of letting whatever happens, happen? I can't make her see the truth the same way I can't make her tell the truth. It's a decision she'll have to make.


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

Saki said:


> It was very hard to keep calm about that but I also didn't feel like flying off the handle was going to do any good. So I asked that we shelf the issue for a while. She's upstairs flipping out, the whole "my life sucks" routine.


She's upset that her husband is keeping her away from her boyfriend.


> I guess I'm not sure what to think of this. She lied. She lied about not lying. Everything in me wants to go up and yell and scream at her about this.


Maybe next time this happens you should, you've earned it and since it would be so out of character for you it might help wake her up. 


> I actually stayed pretty calm and laid down that if there aren't drastic changes in her behavior by wednesday of next week I am filing. I said again and again, I am not telling her what to do, she can behave how she wants. I don't think I was strong enough on the idea that her behavor will have consequences though...would like to go back and make sure that got fully stated.


It might wanna just go ahead and file now and just surprise her with the papers. She may think you are bluffing or thinks she can talk you out of it before next week, Actions speak louder than words.

She is still in her fog so she is not R material right now and probably won't be for some time. She has to want to make you happy and secure, not just do things to shut you up.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I would think that the content of those texts are just as important


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

It sounds like your night went about as well as it could have. Sometimes, disloyal spouses jump ship at the first sign of the end of their cake eating. Your wife says that she's willing to put you ahead of her boyfriend(s). So that's good.

As for her continuing to try to manipulate, just ignore it. What counts is her behavior. Sure, she's upset that her lifestyle is coming to an end. That's to be expected. As long as she doesn't continue to call/text her boyfriend, then things are going well for you.

And you should communicate that to her as well. She doesn't have to transform from party slvt to June Cleaver in a week. She just has to stop the behaviors you listed to her last night. She can do that.

As for her fog, only time and your consistency of purpose will bring her out of that. She may go along with you for a few days, or a few weeks, expecting that your resolve will weaken and she can resume her affair. When that doesn't happen, it won't take that long for her dopamine fix to wear off.

As for looking at the content of her texts, you already know what they say. It's high school crap. "I love you. We could be so happy if we could leave our spouses and be together. You make me horny. Blah, blah, blah." If you need to know the specifics, then get them. If you can be satisfied knowing the basics and leaving it in the past, then just assume the worst and move on.

There are two things you should do now, in addition to what you're already doing. First, decide for yourself how much, if any, backsliding you're willing to accept. You've told her not to contact Bruce. What if she calls him tomorrow and she claims she just wanted to tell him goodbye? Is that enough for you to file? Be ready for that situation so that you're not blindsided by it.

Second, be wary of false reconciliation. Put your VAR under the seat of her car. Some disloyal spouses will give up transparency only to buy a prepaid cell phone, or create a fake email/Facebook account to use to continue the affair. Investigate her to be sure she is remaining faithful to your requirements.

Things appear to be going in a good direction for you. Just keep that momentum up and stay in control of yourself and your situation. She just may thank you for it one day.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Your wife says that she's willing to put you ahead of her boyfriend(s). So that's good.


Indeed - however shes said that probably 75 times in the last month. I made it clear that I felt she was choosing him over me, and she clearly kept choosing him over me on or around oct 17. Here we are dec 8 and she has just come clean on doing it again. I don't believe for a second that she's going to suddenly switch gears



PHTlump said:


> As for her continuing to try to manipulate, just ignore it. What counts is her behavior.


Yes she continued the "what do I need to do to fix this" fitness test today. I just didn't respond. She tried to move our MC appointment up (sooner). So I guess that's an action. Plus actually providing her text logs and admitting she was still talking to him were both actions. Those things are more then she's done in the past.



PHTlump said:


> There are two things you should do now, in addition to what you're already doing. First, decide for yourself how much, if any, backsliding you're willing to accept. You've told her not to contact Bruce. What if she calls him tomorrow and she claims she just wanted to tell him goodbye? Is that enough for you to file? Be ready for that situation so that you're not blindsided by it.
> 
> ....
> 
> Things appear to be going in a good direction for you. Just keep that momentum up and stay in control of yourself and your situation. She just may thank you for it one day.


Thanks for bringing up the backsliding issue. I would not have thought about it and I am not exactly sure where I stand on it as of right now. If she tries to talk to me tonight, I will ask if she has contacted him since last night and verify thru phone logs. If she has not, I will make it clear that she is never to contact him again. If she has, but freely admits it, I don't feel like I know what I will do. But if she has, and lies about it, I am filing. Being blindsided by that issue would have probably put me in a Mr Nice Guy situation where I let the action slide no matter what...

That hardest part of this is staying calm and not getting sucked into the games (in other words, passing the fitness tests).

Today was sort of tough. Off and on feelings of peace, anger, sadness. Occasionally intense, but never for the duration of time after the DDay(s). It comes and goes.

It'll get better. I now see the wisdom of taking the 180 stance and have essentailly been following that process.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Ok this is bothering me now...she asks what I want her to do.

I don't believe she is out of the fog yet.

Do I ignore or do I lay out the 3 steps to regaining trust for her?

Personally I'd really like to see her find out the way to deal with this on her own...


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Ask her, if the roles were reversed what would she want you to do?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

It really depends on what you want

I posted this earlier that if you wanted R then institute this as the rules for R



Almostrecovered said:


> 1) Quit her job since the OM is there
> 2) Tell you the entire truth of ALL of her affairs, NO trickle truth
> 3) writes a no contact letter to OM's
> 4) Is completely transparent and allows you access to all passwords and her phone and tells you of her whereabouts, IOW her privacy is null and void. At the same time without telling her you verify her actions thru keyloggers, VAR's and GPS, etc.
> ...


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Yes I have taken those instructions to heart and have already followed some of them and intend to follow the others.

The question is really more short term...while she is in the fog, she believes her own lies. To tell her, for instance, to tell the whole truth...she has consistantly told me she is telling the whole truth, only for me to trickle additional truth out of her later.

Until she leaves the fog, she will not reveal the whole truth because in her reality, she already has revealed the whole truth. Asking her today to reveal the whole truth leads to an escelation (sp?) of emotional conflict which allows her to deflect the issue. 

I'm not playing that game with her.

Also while in the fog, she cannot accept full responsibility for her actions nor can she be remorseful. She is unable to understand the pain she has inflicted. The only things she can do at this point are give me full transparency (which she has offered but does not fully allow) and write a NC letter. I haven't brought up the NC letter yet, I would like for her to research affair resolution and discover this for herself.

I laid it out pretty clear this morning. I took some of the information from the Mr Nice Guy Book and put it in play. I usually avoid confrontation and conflict at all possible costs. 

Well I've decided I am taking the amount of money necessary to pay my lawyers retaining costs out of our joint savings accounts and putting it into an account under my name (its less then half of the smallest of our savings accounts). I talked to my lawyer about this, who advised it is perfectly legal, will not be viewed negatively by a judge in a divorce hearing, and that I should allow her the courtesy of telling her I am going to do it before I do it. I like my lawyer, by the way...

Obviously I knew what her reaction to this news would be. I have been using the 180 steps...so this morning I was awesome with our son (our daughter always sleeps late), let her sleep in a little, was not unfriendly with the DS, showed on several instances cooperation on domestic issues (simply being a good person). Then at the first good opportunity, I told her I needed to talk to her.

I just plain said "I am taking less then half of the money out of this savings account and moving into a new account which you will not have access to".

Her reaction was predictable. She tried to turn herself into the victim and gave me a number of fitness tests ("You havent given me enough time to change" "what do you want me to do??"). I simply said "I am open to working on things but I have a right to get a divorce any time I want and I have a right to protect myself. I am not willing to be married to the person you are right now". 

She said something like "I can't even take your name off that other account" to which I returned "You can take the money out of there".

She said "do you really think I would do that?"

And I calmly looked her in the eyes and said "I absolutely think you would. I am not doing this to attack you, I am giving you the courtesy of knowing before I do it". And I walked away.

It felt amazingly good to be in control and to get what I expect out of a conversation.

Thank you all!


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## JustaJerk (Dec 2, 2011)

^Good show, my man... good show.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

I'd also like to say, that the way I feel right now is pretty incredible.

I feel free and happy and full of energy.

I no longer have to worry about my wife lying to me or cheating on me. It's simple...either she dosen't do those things, or she isn't my wife. An incredibly large chunk of my emotional being has been tied up with that. I knew what was going on deep down in my soul, but my brain wouldn't accept it.

My brain (and for that matter my entire world view) and my soul were in a 24/7 battle royale over who was right.

You guys have opened my eyes and it has become clear that my soul was right. Do you know how good it feels just to know that everything I ever felt deep down in my heart was right? The amount of confidence poisoning self doubt that simply flew out the window was astounding. I was never wrong. I was never paranoid. 

I deserve better then I have been given. I'm doing right by myself and I'm doing right by my kids and I don't give a flying f*uck what anyone else says!


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

morituri said:


> Ask her, if the roles were reversed what would she want you to do?


This is a good idea.

Of course she would probably say she would divorce him because at the moment she is not suffering from insecurity issues like him. Realize someone who is confident in themselves would not waste a second of their time with a cheater because they know there are million of replacements lined up outside their door. 

Dude, don't go on your feelings, that will cause you to screw up. Make a plan, using your head, and stick to it even if it goes against every fiber of your being. The right things to do are rarely the easiest. Its to the point where she isn't giving you much chose and waffling on taking action is turning you into a doormat.

Your number one priority is you and your dignity. Don't sacrifice it to someone that disrespects you. Make her earn her way back.


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## JustaJerk (Dec 2, 2011)

> I deserve better then I have been given. I'm doing right by myself and I'm doing right by my kids and I don't give a flying f*uck what anyone else says!


This realization is the most important, I think.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Just alerted my coworkers of situation in the following email. I'm going public with all this...telling friends tonight. (no longer living a life of sweeping things under a rug)

"I just wanted to let you all know that my marriage is in a state of crisis.

I won’t burden anyone with unrequested details, but there have been repeated and deliberate breaches of trust and the effect on me personally is tremendous.

Trying to keep the rather bizarre feeling circumstances of all this completely private is too much of a burden for me to bear, and rather than alarm you all with the odd behavior (and it doesn’t help that my cell phone caller id shows up as St Lukes Hospital…) I’m telling you now. Privacy I don’t really care about at this point.

Divorce is a highly likely outcome. I have been and probably will continue to make and receive phone calls and attend personal meetings regarding this matter over the coming days/weeks/months/years and ask for your understanding and flexibility.

Thank you,"


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Saki said:


> Shes so deep in the fog she's dragging lots of other people into it with her. My mom saw right through her fog when I explained the situation. She's also dragged her dad into it and several of her really close friends. Are there any effective strategies for helping someone out of their fog, or is it just a matter of letting whatever happens, happen? I can't make her see the truth the same way I can't make her tell the truth. It's a decision she'll have to make.


Are you telling these people the truth? You need to be. That's why exposure is so important...so they have nowhere to turn to villify you.

ETA: Oops! Didn't see your last post. Good job!

Re: letting her figure out NC letter on her own: Please don't count on that. The NC letter is a pretty obscure idea. You need to explain to her that it is a psychological step that needs to be taken for a mental break from him and that you require it. Then let her either do it or get divorced.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

I love it when I read things like "you haven't given me enough time to change". The person had enough time to carry on the affair but they don't have time to stop it? She made a choice to start cheating and now she can simply choose to stop. It's really not that difficult to understand.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Saki said:


> Ok this is bothering me now...she asks what I want her to do.
> 
> I don't believe she is out of the fog yet.
> 
> ...


If you really want her to come up with a plan, then assign the task to her. Right now, she's just in crisis management mode trying to placate you. She will do what you require. I suggest you either stick to your own plan, or give her some homework to come up with some suggestions for repairing the marriage. Otherwise, when she asks, I would simply repeat your list of required actions (no contact with OM, transparency, etc.) and give her a very simple path to follow.

Things really are looking up for you. Going forward, you will either be happier in your marriage, or you will be happier being separated from your disloyal wife.

Good luck.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Had a session with my therapist (T) today. It went really awesome. I invited her to view this thread, if "my therapist" is looking...HI!!

She validated everything I've felt, said, done. I suppose that's her job. T said clearly my wife is not in touch with reality. I'm sure my T already had me pegged as a "Mr Nice Guy" who had supressed his true self. She asked me how it felt to be able to let that out. It feels amazing.

The way self confidence has returned to me so quickly and in such volume is incredible. This may be TMI, but I've never been comfortable walking around naked in the gym locker room. I noticed today when I went to change I just took off the clothes, I didn't glance over my shoulder and try to arrange myself so no one could see or get anxiety or anything. I just didn't have clothes on, no big deal. 

T helped me come up with some strategies for how to deal with upcoming MC session (and I have another T session prior to our MC session to come up with more ideas). I expect this session will make or break our chances of R. 

If she does not demonstrate full honesty at that session, I file the next morning.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

yeah that was tmi, lol


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

turnera said:


> Are you telling these people the truth? You need to be. That's why exposure is so important...so they have nowhere to turn to villify you.


Right now I am limiting truth telling to those who I believe can see through the fog. I have told my mom everything. She is supportive of me (and her grandchildren) and fully understands the situation as well.

I mentioned before I do not have a good support network. However, I am telling my two best friends tonight. They and their wives are close to me and her. The word will spread. Those who are in the fog will live in denial. 

I have been tempted a number of times to tell her dad (since she used his advice, which I do not believe she actually received or she lied extensively to him, to try to convince me I was going insane). She also had a friend who texted me the riot act about how I was treating her and how she deserved better.

I have resisted doing that so far based on advice from these forums (dont tell her family). I think that's sound advice because telling them turns into denial, emotional escelation (sp) and all the other tricks she uses herself. Hard to resist though. I do think one of the steps she is going to have to go through is telling these people the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

One thing I began to realize today is how many of her friends and family have participated in the construction and perpetration of her warped version of reality. That sort of thing really makes you wonder....


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> yeah that was tmi, lol


lol

just a comment on the effect of destroying the Mr Nice Guy facade on one's self consciousness, especially around men. 

Also, you'll note the first people I'm telling about this are the strong men in my life...boss, friends, etc. Again in direct opposition of the Mr Nice Guy behavior pattern.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

manning up doesnt necessarily mean you walk around with your **** wagging


(hmmmmm....maybe Im wrong here)


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You should tell her dad if you still want to R. She needs to hear from him that he is disappointed in her choices. I don't know who told you not to tell him, but most people here do believe in exposure to end the affair. Since your wife is most likely still in contact, her dad needs to hear what she is doing. And if she is using her friend to try to control you, her friend needs to hear the truth, too. Exposure is not punishment. It is uslng the right resources to bring pressure on the cheating. Nothing more.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> manning up doesnt necessarily mean you walk around with your **** wagging
> 
> 
> (hmmmmm....maybe Im wrong here)


I'm just talking about changing clothes in the gym.

Not sure what you are talking about :scratchhead:


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

relax I was kidding


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

turnera said:


> You should tell her dad if you still want to R. She needs to hear from him that he is disappointed in her choices. I don't know who told you not to tell him, but most people here do believe in exposure to end the affair.


I dunno man, I don't see how that conversion goes like anything other then "your daughter is cheating on me" 

"no she's not, you are nutzo"

"yes she is, I have proof, it's time to face reality"

"no it's time for YOU to face reality..."

oi!


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> relax I was kidding


Me too failed to include sarcastic smiley at the end


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

You're doing awesome. Now you see her, but more importantly you see yourself rightly. You ain't perfect (that's OK). Continue with the unvarnished truth to her and your circle of family and friends. With her portrayal of you (Which was absolutely horrible) to them. Here is my suggestion.
*
"You have purposely told our friends and family that I have issues. When it was you all the time. You berated and degraded me to everyone. Guess what the next thing is you're gonna do? You are gonna sit down and write out a complete confession about how you have gas lighted everyone. That you manipulated THEIR relationships with me. That everything I feared was really true. That you were cheating with Bruce. And refused to stop communicating with him. That I gave you opportunity after opportunity to tell me the truth, but all you ever did was lie to me and to them. That you have been emotionally abusive to me. We will then go to each and everyone of our friends and family.....including your father. And you will read it to them. You will accept complete responsibility for your actions. Should you not do this, the divorce moves forward. If you choose to bring all things to light. I will consider reconciliation. However if I find out, that afterword you have gone back to them and try to mitigate any of your responsibility, I will immediately divorce you." *

She has asked you "what do you want me to do?" many times. This is a start. 



Now I want you to go and listen to "under my thumb" by the rolling stones. I am not endorsing revenge. This is a reckoning. This is shining a 20 million watt light on her and her actions. Lets see if she is ready to live in the light.




Under my thumb
The girl who once had me down
Under my thumb
The girl who once pushed me around

It's down to me
The difference in the clothes she wears
Down to me, the change has come,
She's under my thumb

Ain't it the truth, babe?

Under my thumb
The squirmin' dog who's just had her day
Under my thumb
A girl who has just changed her ways

It's down to me, yes it is
The way she does just what she's told
Down to me, the change has come
She's under my thumb
Ah, ah, say it's alright

Under my thumb
A siamese cat of a girl
Under my thumb
She's the sweetest, hmmm, pet in the world

It's down to me
The way she talks when she's spoken to
Down to me, the change has come,
She's under my thumb
Ah, take it easy babe
Yeah

It's down to me, oh yeah
The way she talks when she's spoken to
Down to me, the change has come,
She's under my thumb
Yeah, it feels alright

Under my thumb
Her eyes are just kept to herself
Under my thumb, well I
I can still look at someone else

It's down to me, oh that's what I said
The way she talks when she's spoken to
Down to me, the change has come,
She's under my thumb
Say, it's alright.

Say it's all...
Say it's all...

Take it easy babe
Take it easy babe
Feels alright
Take it, take it easy babe


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Initfortheduration said:


> You're doing awesome. Now you see her, but more importantly you see yourself rightly. You ain't perfect (that's OK). Continue with the unvarnished truth to her and your circle of family and friends. With her portrayal of you (Which was absolutely horrible) to them. Here is my suggestion.
> *
> "You have purposely told our friends and family that I have issues. When it was you all the time. You berated and degraded me to everyone. Guess what the next thing is you're gonna do? You are gonna sit down and write out a complete confession about how you have gas lighted everyone. That you manipulated THEIR relationships with me. That everything I feared was really true. That you were cheating with Bruce. And refused to stop communicating with him. That I gave you opportunity after opportunity to tell me the truth, but all you ever did was lie to me and to them. That you have been emotionally abusive to me. We will then go to each and everyone of our friends and family.....including your father. And you will read it to them. You will accept complete responsibility for your actions. Should you not do this, the divorce moves forward. If you choose to bring all things to light. I will consider reconciliation. However if I find out, that afterword you have gone back to them and try to mitigate any of your responsibility, I will immediately divorce you." *
> 
> She has asked you "what do you want me to do?" many times. This is a start.


THat would feel wonderful but I feel it is a terrible first move. It is more likely to put her further into the fog then bring her out. It would also initiate a tremendous amount of side choosing when what she, well actually we (not as in I'm married we but as in her and I we), need is support

That absolutely positively will be a step in this process, but it is not going to be my first move.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Just got an incredibly long email fitness test. I scanned it and saw the typical manuvers (including a lead off about how she hates being in limbo) and stopped reading. What I saw absolutely made my blood start to boil, but I reeled it back in.

My response was this:

I just want to tell you I will not read this email.

You have caused me an incredible amount of pain and misery and I will not accept your behavior any longer.

You are not in limbo. There is a very simple choice for you to make.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Saki said:


> THat would feel wonderful but I feel it is a terrible first move. It is more likely to put her further into the fog then bring her out. It would also initiate a tremendous amount of side choosing when what she, well actually we (not as in I'm married we but as in her and I we), need is support
> 
> That absolutely positively will be a step in this process, but it is not going to be my first move.


So you're still afraid. I thought you manned up. Guess not. There ain't no sides here. There is right and wrong. 

Excuse me Saki, but didn't you say she has till next Wednesday to change? I'm sure you did. Please excuse me for asking, but with something just over 120 hours to go before Wednesday, just what the hell do you think your first step should be? How do you plan to have her prove she has changed??????

I tell you what, have a few more pointless arguments on how exactly she has to change (though how you'll prove it in just over 120 hours is beyond me). Can I ask what exactly will be her sign that she has had a damascus road conversion? Removing a half of her little finger like the yacuza? Perhaps self flagellation? I am afraid you are in your own fog. You just haven't understood yet. Your wife did this to you because she had no respect for you. You have been a beta male your whole relationship. Now you have shown an alpha side to yourself (which is very attractive to her and I will bet you a hundred dollars that that is what attracted her to Bruce) and she is starting to react to it . She's waiting to see if you mean it. Or like EVERY other time before, you revert back to beta status. The problem is this.....DID YOU THINK SHE WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO NEEDED TO CHANGE. 

So give me a quick list of your plans with my suggestion being the last on the list. Remember you have just over 120 hours to bring this about. *Tic Toc* *Tic Toc*


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

i think with her current frame of mind , she will see no wrong. She is accustomed to live and think like this. Don't think you will get a break through from her.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm certainly not afraid I just don't think it's a wise move RIGHT NOW.

I have discoverd over the last 6 weeks a lot of things I need to change about myself. And I have also shown the ability to change these things.

While it seems rather ludicrus to point to this, I have shown her over the last 6 weeks that I understand how I had failed to meet her needs in the relationship, and some of the destructive behaviors that I participate in for my personal life. I have implemented change and done so consistantly.

I am, in fact, now the alpha male in this relationship. Which means I control how and when things are done. The reveal step as you are suggesting is not something that I am doing as a first step.

My first step is seeing if she proves a change to honest behavior. Without that, nothing else matters. I will not manipulate her into having honestly. Either she does it of her own free will or I file. I have 2 tests devised for her regarding that issue. I have made sure she is aware of this thread so in the unlikely event she looks, I'm not telling you what they are.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

warlock07 said:


> i think with her current frame of mind , she will see no wrong. She is accustomed to live and think like this. Don't think you will get a break through from her.


Of course he won't. Why? Because he's still playing the scared little beta male. Afraid to read her e-mail. That's ok just stomp around for a little while and have a good cry. What I suggested before regarding her making a confession was a way to break her down and humble her. To finally show her that you have taken back your testicles. To create a new dynamic in your marriage. One of honesty and openess and mutual respect. You want to do what I suggested, but you just "FEEL" it isn't the time. What I suggested was an INTERVENTION, only in reverse. It wouldn't be everybody asking her to change. It would be her saying "I HAVE TO CHANGE, OR I WILL LOSE MY HUSBAND AND FAMILY" 

You are still acting out of fear. I am sorry to say.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Saki said:


> I'm certainly not afraid I just don't think it's a wise move RIGHT NOW.
> 
> I have discoverd over the last 6 weeks a lot of things I need to change about myself. And I have also shown the ability to change these things.
> 
> ...


You what? You made her aware of this thread? How frigging stupid are you? "Oh, by the way honey I have gone to this great site TAM. I am asking for advice on how deal with you going heals up under Bruce and lying about it for years. Please feel free to stop in and give me your opinion on the advice I am given. I would really like your input on trying to change you from lying cheating skank to an honest woman." 

Oh yeah, you're a real alpha.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Saki said:


> Yesterday when I was leaving I told her I'd be staying with my mom for a while. She just emailed me asking if that was still the plan.
> 
> Is this too harsh of a reply? (q=are you staying at your moms?)
> 
> ...


Oh is this to harsh of a reply? Real Alpha there. This was yesterday. 6 weeks really? This was yesterday.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Saki said:


> OMG her responses to that email...
> 
> It's so easy to see how is trying to manipulate me. And it's so easy to see how setting boundries solves this.
> 
> ...


She's never heard me say no to her before. Real Alpha there. Six weeks? Really? Dude you haven't had your huevos' back for 6 hours let alone 6 weeks. Shall I continue with more examples of your Alphaness?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you truly were ready to walk, you would have no problem telling her dad what she's doing so that he can help you get her back on track. You're kidding yourself. But not us. Oh well.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Saki said:


> I really am not sure I am comfortable with the idea of wiretapping her....that feels to me like line crossing


Oh yes, for goodness sake don't cross that line. It just doesn't "FEEL" right. Need more examples? Don't even attempt to claim alpha status. Oh there is no sense in wiretapping since you invited your wife to read your thread and basically give her a heads up to any attempts at trying to MANIPULATE her. All of these posts are from yesterday. Oh and none of the advice is given to manipulate her. It was to change the dynamic in your marriage. When you're honest (which neither of you are) there is no need for manipulation. You see manipulation is not necessary when there is honesty, respect and love in a marriage.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Guys you're being hard on the guy. This standing up for himself is new and he s still trying it on for size.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

You don't get it. Somehow you've been convinced it's alright for your wife to publicly disrespect you. She knows she can make you doubt what you see with your own eyes. You need to work on your confidence. If you are so afraid to live alone then you will always be disrespected by your wife and will be in a world of hurt once she dumps you for a real man. Wake up and get ready.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Awe come on Shaggy. He's an alpha he can take it. I understand that he is still trying manhood on for size. But telling his wife about this thread was moronic. And was definitely the act of a beta. Just reading the quotes that I mentioned more then prove he is in way over his head. His wife will now be able to discount everything he says and any advice he is given. It is virtually pointless to give him any advice in the future.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Saki, have you checked out Athol Kay's blog Married Man Sex Life? He has quite a few good posts on the steps to take in order to stop contact with the OM including sample emails or letter to enlist help from family and friends. Just thought I'd mention it.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

Saki said:


> I have discovered over the last 6 weeks a lot of things I need to change about myself. And I have also shown the ability to change these things.
> 
> While it seems rather ludicrous to point to this, I have shown her over the last 6 weeks that I understand how I had failed to meet her needs in the relationship, and some of the destructive behaviors that I participate in for my personal life. I have implemented change and done so consistently.
> 
> ...


Saki, Infortheduration is being too nice to you. Let's review.

It is really great that you have done 6 weeks worth of introspection. Believing that you have permanently changed your beta behaviors in 6 weeks is basically telling anyone who reads your post that you haven't actually done 6 weeks worth of introspection, and that you have no clue at all what you are doing. Meaningful change takes months of hard work in a relationship and even then it doesn't always stay changed.

Next. Showing your wife over the last 6 weeks that you understand how you failed to meet her needs is FANTASTIC! It is beautiful and sensitive and caring. It is the sign of a man eager to please! Unfortunately, this is not alpha behavior. Alpha behavior, if it took a run down this avenue, might figure out the failures, but any repair work would be done quietly. Now a beta boy, on the other hand, would be all proud of himself, and, well, oops. 

"I am, in fact, now the alpha male in this relationship."

No, no you're not. It's nowhere near as simple as flipping a mental switch. Just making this statement is 100% not-alpha. You are nowhere close.

"I have made sure she is aware of this thread"

Oh, good. If she comes on here and identifies your thread and reads it over, I'm sure she will see all your doubts and insecurities and think "Gosh, he's alpha." Well done.



Saki, you have done an excellent job of naming your thread, except that your spouse isn't the only one who "doesn't get it." However, you actually have been a fast learner. You are figuring out boundaries and identifying bs behaviors on the part of your spouse. And you deserve honest praise and lots of credit for your successes.

That does not mean you are on top of your relationship, and you will fall flat on your face if you get ****y, which you are well on your way to doing.

Keep reading and increasing your understanding of what is going on with your wife. Assume she is one step ahead of you, even if she isn't. And stay humble with yourself. Pride and over-confidence can really bite you on the @ss when your relationship is not squared away.

You're making progress. So don't get ****y, kid


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## Jazzercise (Dec 9, 2011)

Oh boy...You sound exactly like someone I know. That would be ME. lol! Been thru some of what you have (EA) and being the relationship doormat. Here are some facts.

1) She is and has been cheating on you (Physically and emotionally)
2) NO ONE is ever going to give her enough attention
3) She is never going to be faithful to you
4) She has no respect for you

She's one of millions of women who are willing to accept any positive attention from men. It's sad but true. You're screwed unless you let her go out and do what she wants, then let her make a decision. If she's going to grow up and be the wife and mother she needs to be, she's not going to do it while crapping all over you. Kick her out and let her grovel back on her hands and knees.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Initfortheduration said:


> Awe come on Shaggy. He's an alpha he can take it. I understand that he is still trying manhood on for size. But telling his wife about this thread was moronic. And was definitely the act of a beta. Just reading the quotes that I mentioned more then prove he is in way over his head. His wife will now be able to discount everything he says and any advice he is given. It is virtually pointless to give him any advice in the future.


Yeah, revealing the retread was pretty dumb to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Saki, no one wants to discount the progress you've made. But its a little soon for you to be thinking that just because you "Feel" something is right, doesn't make it so. We are given a mind to control our feelings. Our feelings should always be subject to our "minds". Feelings are completely subjective. That is why you have to depend on what is "right" not what your "feelings" are. By having your wife confess to those that love and care about her and you, is a way to burn down this affair. You are not doing this to shame her. You are setting the record straight. Its called living in the light. Jesus said "and the truth shall set you free" That is all we want for you, to set you and your wife free. Free from the lies and deceit. Free from a horrible precedent, that years of wrong thinking, selfishness and fear have created. Your wife has betrayed you multiple times. And right now she is in damage control. She wants her family, but she also wants someone she can respect as her mate and lover. You have been cuckolded your whole marriage. Do you think she likes doing it to you. I can virtually guarantee that she doesn't. How can any woman like being a wh0re and unfaithful to her husband? If that is her idea of a marriage, no amount of counseling or putting your foot down is going to matter. If that is how she truly "feels" you must divorce for you and your children's mental health.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Dear Ms.Saki,

Got a few questions for you:

1. So now that you've read your husband description of the hateful actions you've taken against your family and marriage - have you begun to see the horror in the mirror or are you still living in the fog of justication?

2. Have you the ability to look at him, then imagine him cheating and hiding it like you have? How would you feel if you discovered that? Is there still enough empathy in you to image the feeling of betrayal and hurt?

3. What now? Sure you're feeling all defensive and self righteous, how dare he get those internet idiots to take his side? The thing is - did you do it? Did you cheat? Did you lie?

4. How are you going to fix and address the hateful attack you've perpetrated upon him? No one is perfect, but this is man you vowed to love and cherish. Why have you turned away from your own promises?


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Whoa whoa whoa.

You guys are taking one comment way out of context. Or rather I wrote it wrong.

I did not make her aware of this thread, but I have given her access to my laptop.

My comment on 6 weeks of change was not in relation to my alpha beta behavior, but rather dealing with repressed anger and being able to release that.

How long have I been an alpha? Or trying to be an alpha I should say....since about halfway through this thread. The decision to regain self respect came sometime wednesday. Today is friday....I'm a work in progress.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

NotLikeYou said:


> Keep reading and increasing your understanding of what is going on with your wife. Assume she is one step ahead of you, even if she isn't. And stay humble with yourself. Pride and over-confidence can really bite you on the @ss when your relationship is not squared away.
> 
> You're making progress. So don't get ****y, kid


Thank you for that. I read everything you wrote with an open mind and accept much if not all of what you are saying.

It is timely advice as I just came home from telling this entire story to my friends and learned many things in the process about how she views me as a person. The pieces of this puzzle continue to fit together incredibly well the way you all have presented them.

I came home tonight to a list of her passwords sitting on the counter. It's hard for me not to respond in some way being nice to her....and I probably would have if you guys had not wrote what you did. I know understand what the correct thing to do in this situation is - verify and keep quiet about it.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I like the way your dealing with this crap, in the beginning of your thread I picked up on some pretty wippy stuff, but as the thread went on you seem to be handling this BS in a very healthy way.

Good job on using what you've learned.

It woarms my heart that someone actual reads the stuff that is suggested and impliments it. Sometime it work, in most of the time it works. Its a balancing act and reading your wayward and making adjustment is important so this infidelity crap doesn't imblowed on you and your left with regrets.

I think your making all the right move at alll the right times, for your individual case. I hope nothing but the best for you....with or with out your wife.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

nice job Saki, keep moving forward


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Here is a thought. Until you are able to put into practice the principles laid out here. You should seek advice before you respond to things like the list of passwords. I am not saying you shouldn't do what you think is right. Just wait till you get outside the "box" opinions or insights. Lists of passwords are a start. But do not commit things to her before getting a number of opinions. What she needs to experience is that she can no longer manipulate with peace offering like that. You just can't trust her intents yet. 

I know its a tough slog right now. But understand, to break the habits of years, you will have to have patience. I believe you have had an epiphany. But that doesn't mean the dynamics of your marriage have changed at all. You just woke up. If she makes verbal offers to you or tries to negotiate. Simply say "I will think about it." Do not let her pressure you or try and get an immediate answer out of you. You need advice and reassurance that you are taking the proper tact with her.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

It's been a while since I posted and found myself reading this thread over last night. It was an odd experience, I often read my own posts and felt like I was reading a stranger's thoughts.

I have gone through a lot of ups and downs but I have to admit I'm really happy with myself right now. This thread presented the "No More Mr Nice Guy" book to me. It's really changed my life. 

I used to be an extreme introvert. I used to walk through a room and literally think to myself "none of these women would ever have any interest in me". I always felt emotionally exhausted (deficiet thinking) and was close to no one.

By recognizing the ways that I subconsciously sabatoge my life and push people away, I've been able to discover self respect. I feel like I have more energy. I feel happier. I am able to relate to people. I am actually outgoing, and find it incredibly easy to have sustained converstations with strangers and friends alike. My work life has improved significantly as I now face conflict and resolve issues rather then finding anyway possible to avoid conflict.

I feel like a much different person.

On the other hand, Xmas was very very hard for me. WS and I are attempting R, but sometimes I just can't even be in the same room as her. We wrapped our kids presents together and I was signing them "Mommy and Daddy"...it was one of the most difficult experiences in my life. Christmas lunch at my WS grandma's house was torture. I was sitting at the table talking to her 87 or so year old Uncle, the nicest, most stand up guy I've ever met and I just wanted to scream "DO YOU KNOW WHAT SHE'S DONE?!?!"

She's made progress on her end, but I have trouble being patient. I've put an incredible amount of time and effort into changing myself. Not for her, but to make myself happier. I watch her just go about her life like nothing happened and put little to no effort into changing herself. She has taken some actions and her views on things have changed from "I've never done anything wrong" to "I did these two really bad things but you made marriage suck for the whole time in between". 

Which I did. 

It's been amazing reading the Mr Nice Guy book and digging deep to understand the way I have been shaped. In 1956 my grandpa committed suicide, leaving my 2 year old father to grow up fatherless. I didn't even find out about that family secret until I was 20 years old. I see now how it affected him, then he modelled his behavior to me...and that is definitely part of the way I was shaped. I find the deeper I dig, the more I understand and the more I begin to truely feel things. The blatant refusal to allow myself to feel anything emotionally has been a huge issue in my marriage...but of course I never admitted that to myself until recently.

Anyway, given the debt of gratitude I owe all those who have posted here and helped me through an incredibly difficult time, I thought an update might be appriciated.

By the way, No More Mr Nice Guy needs a dedicated subforum!!


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