# Forgive and FORGET



## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I had an unpleasant experience today, in my professional life, but it made a light bulb go off in my head in regards to how my husband must feel when I have been guilty of the same behavior in the past. 

I was involved in a meeting today with the CEO of my company where I had to explain some accounting issues that happened with a project of mine. Some were my fault, some were not. I came in to own up to my mistakes and discuss a plan moving forward to fix it and open up communication between us to avoid the same mistake in the future. 

Unbeknownst to me, similar mistakes have been made in the past that did not involve me. They were before I was with the company. As we were having our heated discussion, the CEO kept throwing things out at me about things that happened 5 years ago, or more. He was fixated on rehashing the past even though the conversation was rapidly deteriorating and becoming unproductive. He was emotional. He was angry. He was making me uncomfortable and it was obvious that there was nothing I could say at that moment that was going to bring the conversation back to an even keel. He had made up his mind that I was unforgivable in that moment and that's it. So, I shut down and let it play out. I stopped talking. I walked out after the mtg was done feeling defeated and so small. 

I felt shameful - and that's something I don't feel often. And it's something that was mentioned in NMMNG that I couldn't really wrap my head around. A man's shame. Although my H did say he related to the book. 

Bad day at work, but perhaps a good experience. I rarely find myself in that kind of a situation. I've never been openly confronted by a grudge holder before. I will admit though that I am guilty of doing it myself, particularly in my relationships. I can forgive but I have a hard time with the "forgetting" part. 

As soon as I got in my car this evening it hit me like a ton of bricks - god, I hope I never made anyone feel that way. I bet I did. I bet my H has felt like that before. 

We don't fight often but when we do, I have brought it up more than once. Ive had trouble letting things go in the past. We've been together a long time and I am just now learning how important it is to make a decision to let things go sometimes, even if there is never any resolution, even if I don't believe what is being told to me. 

I can remember a few specific instances that I drug up past events and past hurts more than once. 

We lived together before we got engaged, and I remember there was a time when I got anxious and thought he was never going to propose to me. Even though we both talked about our future and marraige. I was dying to make it official. I never said anything to him, because I didn't want to ruin it. But in the back of my head for many months I carried around a doubt...maybe he's changed his mind, maybe he doesn't want marraige anymore. Then, I turned up pregnant. Big surprise (we were actively trying to prevent). I was scared and in tears. One of the things that weighed heavily on me was that we weren't married, or even engaged. I blurted that out to him in a moment of breakdown. I was young at the time and was not looking forward to sharing our pregnancy news with our families who both were very against us living together before marraige. 

A few days later, he proposed to me. It was sweet...but somehow in my pregnant twisted hormonal mind I was convinced that the only reason he did it was because I was pregnant. That if I hadn't turned up pregnant, he never would have done it. 

That stuck with me for years...even though he swore it wasnt true. Every so often we'd get in a fight, and I would break down crying worried that he didn't really love me. That he didn't really want to marry me. A few times I put those thoughts to words and I could see in his face that it hurt him. I felt badly then but didn't understand what it feels like to be on his side...to be doubted. It's been years since I've thought about or said those things, but it was in my mind today as an example of what he may have felt like then. 

So....I dont know where I'm going with this. I've got a mess to deal with at work tomorrow but I surprisingly don't feel upset about it, all I feel is empathy for my H and all the other men (and women) out there who have had to deal with this before.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

It sounds like you are dealing with this very well, OP, getting a lemon and making lemonade.

It was probably for the best that you just stopped talking and let your CEO get all that off his chest. It clearly was not your fault what happened before you got to the company, and your boss has not gotten over it. His treatment of you had much more to do with him than it did with you.

Do you think that next time, if he starts getting emotional, that in addition to just listening, you could reflect back to him what he is saying? Just basically show empathy? 

There is a principle in the Seven Habits book called, "Seek first to understand, and then to be understood." The author stresses that both are important, but without first giving time to the other person, to truly seek to understand him, he will not have the emotional energy to understand you. 

This is the mistake so many of us make. We each insist on talking, on debating, on trying to get the other person to agree that we are right. 

If only we could first calm ourselves enough to look at the other person's pov, to really understand where he or she is coming from, why in his/her world, that pov is the obviously correct one. Then we would be much more likely to have a chance to explain our view, too, and have it be respectfully considered.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

kag123 said:


> I felt shameful - and that's something I don't feel often. And it's something that was mentioned in NMMNG that I couldn't really wrap my head around. A man's shame. Although my H did say he related to the book.
> 
> Bad day at work, but perhaps a good experience. I rarely find myself in that kind of a situation. I've never been openly confronted by a grudge holder before. I will admit though that I am guilty of doing it myself, particularly in my relationships. I can forgive but I have a hard time with the "forgetting" part.
> 
> As soon as I got in my car this evening it hit me like a ton of bricks - god, I hope I never made anyone feel that way. I bet I did. I bet my H has felt like that before.


I don't think my wife has ever forgotten a single thing I did wrong, or she thought I did wrong. Because if something stressful comes along, I get to hear all about them all over again. Even if it's just preparing for a test she's worried about, I get to hear about all the things I do wrong, have done wrong, or she imagines I might have or will do wrong. 

I simply have no idea how to get past this. I try to not let it get me angry or frustrated, but sometimes it's days before I stop feeling it. And when I'm feeling it, I keep to myself. I find myself walling her off and shutting her out completely. 

I'm sure that makes it worse, since that's one of the things she gets mad about. I just can't help it. There's only so many times you can let some keep hitting and re-injuring old wounds before you start trying to fend off the pain.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

*Re: Re: Forgive and FORGET*



oldgeezer said:


> I don't think my wife has ever forgotten a single thing I did wrong, or she thought I did wrong. Because if something stressful comes along, I get to hear all about them all over again. Even if it's just preparing for a test she's worried about, I get to hear about all the things I do wrong, have done wrong, or she imagines I might have or will do wrong.
> 
> I simply have no idea how to get past this. I try to not let it get me angry or frustrated, but sometimes it's days before I stop feeling it. And when I'm feeling it, I keep to myself. I find myself walling her off and shutting her out completely.
> 
> I'm sure that makes it worse, since that's one of the things she gets mad about. I just can't help it. There's only so many times you can let some keep hitting and re-injuring old wounds before you start trying to fend off the pain.


I hope I am not (and was never) to the point that you say your wife is. It is really only when something deeply hurts me that I have trouble letting it go. There are only a handful of times that I can remember from our 9 years together. 

Two things though from a woman who has done this before to her husband....

1) I grew up with parents who were very hard on me and very quick to remind me when I made a mistake. Over and over and over again. So in some ways it became habit. I am infinitely harder on myself than on others, but that's really no consolation to a husband who has a nice guy shame complex. I think my H and I really come from a similar background and upbringing but we learned two very different coping mechanisms. His is to shut down, wall off and walk away. Mine is to remind myself constantly of the mistake to ensure it never happens again. Sort of like a promise to be perfect that you can't really keep. The problem is that I can project that onto others. 

2) I get frustrated...and mostly just very sad...that my H puts up walls. It's one of the things that brought me to TAM in the first place. I so desperately want more emotional connection and intimacy with my H but I can tell he won't let go and allow it. I came here originally to find out "what's wrong with him", but through my own journey and battle with mental health issues I have become more interested in understanding what role I played in our dynamic and cause and effect. I started to understand slowly that the emotional blocking he does is just one symptom of a much larger issue in our marriage...one that I am still struggling to define wholly. But its not THE issue...not the only one worth focusing on. I also know I can only really work on and change myself. I want to be a better wife and I want him to feel safe being vulnerable with me.

The problem is that for someone like me, you cannot understand how what you are doing is hurtful. I know that sounds dense. In my twisted brain, you wear your mistakes on your sleeve and you remind yourself of them daily because it's the only way to prevent them from repeating. To be a better person. (Maybe this is why I wasn't a complete mess while the president yelled at me today.) Sometimes its such an ingrained part of my personality that I do not realize other people don't think this way. You honestly do it out of habit because that is how my brain works. I don't always know that what I say sounds harsh and berating to the other person. 

I've tried to have frank discussions with my H about this and explain to him that my intention when I say something can be very different than the way it comes out of my mouth. I asked him to help me fix it. One way he does this is by bluntly telling me that what I said was harsh. "Ouch" is a common polite way he cues me in. Then I stop and say "Sorry, what did you just hear me say", he repeats it to me and I rephrase it to try to better frame my intention. 

I also wish my H would be more blunt with me all the time. He literally never gets angry. I can't remember a single time I have seen him angry at me. If he came up to me and said - can you stop talking about that one time I did xyz! I would probably stop.

For example...he has a higher standard for house cleaning than I do. A few dirty dishes left in the sink overnight doesn't bother me. I don't even think about it. But he's always taken the initiative to make sure the sink is clean before bed. For years its been this way. He never said anything so I just figured the status quo was fine. One day a few months ago he said "You know, it would be really nice if you'd get your ass off the couch and do the dishes at night once in awhile". My jaw hit the floor at first bc I dont think he's ever talked to me that way, but I have shared that responsibility with him ever since. I really didn't know it bothered him all this time.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

kag123 said:


> One day a few months ago he said "You know, it would be really nice if you'd get your ass off the couch and do the dishes at night once in awhile".


Ouch, so much but I'll just quote this part and say in Charlie/Mrs P speak that would get a "that's your fücking OCD, not my OCD, in the morning works for me". Be really careful, "shar[ing] that responsibility with him ever since" is a red flag to me.

Sorry to hear this, I just wanted to encourage more dinner photos


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

oldgeezer said:


> I don't think my wife has ever forgotten a single thing I did wrong, or she thought I did wrong. Because if something stressful comes along, I get to hear all about them all over again. Even if it's just preparing for a test she's worried about, I get to hear about all the things I do wrong, have done wrong, or she imagines I might have or will do wrong.
> 
> I simply have no idea how to get past this. I try to not let it get me angry or frustrated, but sometimes it's days before I stop feeling it. And when I'm feeling it, I keep to myself. I find myself walling her off and shutting her out completely.
> 
> I'm sure that makes it worse, since that's one of the things she gets mad about. I just can't help it. There's only so many times you can let some keep hitting and re-injuring old wounds before you start trying to fend off the pain.


Don't take it personally. Just because someone is upset with you, doesn't mean you did something wrong, and certainly not on purpose.

Reflect it back to her. "Wow, that really hurt you. Tell me about it." "That really bothered you. I can tell by how upset you are."

Just show empathy. You can try to understand what she is feeling without its meaning that you somehow were trying to hurt her. I am sure you were not.

Try to be stronger in yourself, and what she says will not wound you so much.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

*Re: Re: Forgive and FORGET*



CharlieParker said:


> Ouch, so much but I'll just quote this part and say in Charlie/Mrs P speak that would get a "that's your fücking OCD, not my OCD, in the morning works for me". Be really careful, "shar[ing] that responsibility with him ever since" is a red flag to me.
> 
> Sorry to hear this, I just wanted to encourage more dinner photos


Red flag....how so?

In my world, with a husband who so rarely speaks up, I welcomed this comment with open arms. I have a very blunt way of speaking IRL and so having someone say this to me didn't hurt my feelings (I grew up with this type of thing as my normal), I was just shocked to hear it come out of my H's mouth. He's normally so meek about these things. 

I was happy he told me a specific, fixable complaint so that I could take action to work on it....rather than having him silently fester and resent me without knowing why. (Which he was clearly doing before he spoke up...)


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

OP, days like this are very, VERY special. Processing what you went through, how it went down and reflections of yourself are ALL important lessons in life.

As for your CEO, he is a jerk (most are, don't worry). You were up front and honest about what happened, yet he decided to **** on your for that. I'm sure you will hold back on your honesty now. And we all know that what happened 5 years ago or has been happening and IS happening is partly his fault as well.....but it's simply convenient for him to **** on your about it.

My best advice, just laugh at it. Don't even give that entire situation a second thought. It's the only thing that will keep you sane.

Matter a fact, that is probably the best advice I have ever gotten in professional world. Just laugh. 

I've been in 3 careers and dozens of places and seen my share. Just when you think you've seen it all or the most ridicules things ever.......you are in for a shock and something more ridicules comes along.

Laughter keeps me sane, carelessness as well (you just want to keep that inside and now show it as much as laughter). 

Everyone appreciates a smile....

As for the overall gist of this thread. Recognizing mistakes from the past are important, but dwelling on them is completely worthless.

At the end of the day, what has happened in the past or what actually happens to you in present doesn't really matter (to an extent of course).

What really matters, is HOW you deal with it.

I remind myself about this on daily basis.....and still struggle with it at times (easier said then done).

I would simply recommend apologizing to your husband for your mistakes in the past (that will go a long way) and he will appreciate the fact that you recognize it now (or even possibly realize that he wasn't at fault).

These are ALL priceless lessons and things that build relationships and make them stronger IMO.

Good luck


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I understand this so well because I'm a huge grudge holder, and have been for as long as I can remember. I remember everything that's ever been done to me, though I am able to draw a distinction between people that didn't mean harm and those that either did or didn't care. I have come to realize in the last couple of years, in part due to my time on TAM, that this is actually a result of my CSA; it doesn't affect me sexually but it does affect my ability to deeply trust people because the adults in my life that were supposed to protect me not only didn't but purposely turned a blind eye to what was happening to me. Because of that I think I'm subconsciously looking for reasons to stop trusting people. I am starting to make progress with this and every time I find myself getting po'd over something I try to stop and think if it's really that big of a deal. Sometimes it is but often it's not.

At this point why not think long and hard about where this grudge holding comes from, and then sit with your husband and apologize/explain to him what's going on when nobody is upset? When I had my a-ha moment it was like a huge weight lifted from my shoulders, and even though I still struggle knowing what's at the root of it has been a tremendous help.

If I was you I'd also be worried that he only proposed because I was pregnant, but for him that might not be true at all. Have you ever talked to him about it when you're both calm? Nothing's ever settled during a fight.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

kag123 said:


> Red flag....how so?
> 
> In my world, with a husband who so rarely speaks up, I welcomed this comment with open arms. I have a very blunt way of speaking IRL and so having someone say this to me didn't hurt my feelings (I grew up with this type of thing as my normal), I was just shocked to hear it come out of my H's mouth. He's normally so meek about these things.
> 
> I was happy he told me a specific, fixable complaint so that I could take action to work on it....rather than having him silently fester and resent me without knowing why. (Which he was clearly doing before he spoke up...)


OK, thanks for clarifying. Not knowing what he's like it sounded to me like you were cheerfully accepting potentially abusive/controlling behavior.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

*Re: Re: Forgive and FORGET*



lifeistooshort said:


> If I was you I'd also be worried that he only proposed because I was pregnant, but for him that might not be true at all. Have you ever talked to him about it when you're both calm? Nothing's ever settled during a fight.


We have talked about it before, but it's a very sensitive topic and it's been years since I have really thought about it. 

It was an unfortunate series of events. He told me after he proposed that he had already bought the ring and had bought it weeks earlier but was waiting for it to be finished before he could pick it up and give it to me. (He had a ring made for me, and it took time.) He said that when I broke down crying right before he proposed, it damn near killed him because he wanted to tell me about the ring but didn't want it to tarnish the "fairytale" of the proposal. He is and was very upset whenever I bring up that I questioned his intentions about marrying me. I have no reason to think he was getting cold feet. There were no other signs beyond the amt of time it took for him to propose. He feels that its an attack on his integrity (he told me numerous times he intended to marry me, I should have taken him at his word) and hurts him deeply to think that I didn't feel that loved me during that time when he says marrying me was all he thought about. 

Unfortunately all of that did taint his proposal and our short engagement time for me because despite what he says, and despite the evidence that he is telling the truth, I could not believe it. It was a strange time in our relationship. I loved him deeply and knew I wanted to be with him, so I stifled my doubts about his intentions and we got married 8 weeks later. I am normally very risk-averse so it was a huge deal for me to jump into the marriage considering the thoughts swirling through my head at that time. I don't really believe in getting married just for the sake of a pregnancy or child. I had to trust his word and I jumped in. It still gives me heartburn when I think about my anxiety levels during that time in my life. I was terrified for a lot of things...the marraige, the pregnancy, not knowing what I was doing with my life. 

Eventually after being married a few years, I let it go. I can't say I will ever really believe totally that my pregnancy didn't have anything to do with the way things worked out, but after years together I just decided that clearly it didn't matter. He's put in enough time with me being married now that he's gotta love me and want to be in this marraige or he'd have left by now. Rehashing what happened so long ago doesn't really matter now that so much time has passed. 

I do still feel a tremendous amount of guilt though for letting him know my doubts and hurting him so badly over it. It was the first time I had ever said to him "I dont trust you". I never said those exact words but that is the take home point of not believing what he said even though I had no reason not to.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

kag123 said:


> I can't say I will ever really believe totally that my pregnancy didn't have anything to do with the way things worked out, but after years together I just decided that clearly it didn't matter.


I think you can acknowledge that and still believe that he would have married you even if you had not gotten pregnant. I do not doubt that the pregnancy altered the timing. But altering the timing is not the same as being the cause of him proposing.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

jld said:


> Don't take it personally. Just because someone is upset with you, doesn't mean you did something wrong, and certainly not on purpose.
> 
> Reflect it back to her. "Wow, that really hurt you. Tell me about it." "That really bothered you. I can tell by how upset you are."


But that's not how it goes. I get an unending tirade of everything wrong about me until I absent myself - or lose my temper. 

If I don't lose my temper and just shut up she gets mad about me ignoring her. 

It's not solveable, because I have no way of finding out what's wrong until later. And it's rarely because she tells me. I just find out.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

kag123 said:


> 2) I get frustrated...and mostly just very sad...that my H puts up walls. It's one of the things that brought me to TAM in the first place. I so desperately want more emotional connection and intimacy with my H but I can tell he won't let go and allow it.


That's me to a T. 

And I put up the walls, because if I don't, I just get hurt, hurt, hurt, hurt, hurt, hurt, and it never stops. 

If you care about him in the slightest, YOU WILL STOP HURTING HIM and making him shut you out.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

hope your CEO lightens up. 

You admitted your mistakes and are learning from them.

If this was a perfect world, no one would make a mistake.

All you can do is try to fix the situation as best as you can. 

So your CEO is perfect and never made a mistake? I do hope the CEO realizes that the energy would be better spent trying to fix or minimize the damage of the mistake or mistakes. 

Good luck with the CEO.


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## MidwestDave (Jun 18, 2009)

kag123 said:


> I had an unpleasant experience today, in my professional life, but it made a light bulb go off in my head in regards to how my husband must feel when I have been guilty of the same behavior in the past.
> 
> So....I dont know where I'm going with this. I've got a mess to deal with at work tomorrow but I surprisingly don't feel upset about it, all I feel is empathy for my H and all the other men (and women) out there who have had to deal with this before.


You are a gem that you can actually feel shame. Don't ever let anything change that. My wife has never felt a moment of shame in her life because she truly believes she is perfect. If she admitted to herself otherwise, her world would fall apart.

She's perfected the art of never forgetting a slight against her. More ammunition and building rationale to illustrate how she is godlike and I am crap.

Sorry you are dealing with this bad boss. My job is extremely hard but I have a great manager and co-workers, don't have to deal with that or I would be out of there.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

*Re: Re: Forgive and FORGET*



harrybrown said:


> hope your CEO lightens up.
> 
> You admitted your mistakes and are learning from them.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Unfortunately it's a total sh!tstorm at work and I may end up losing my job or getting officially reprimanded for my mistake. At least I was honest and didn't try to lie or cover it up. 

Unfortunately the CEO is kind of a douche. I don't report directly to him, I am in middle management and I report to one of the upper managers. I love my staff, my peers and my immediate bosses. I have worked here for 4 years and have single handedly built the department that I run from the ground up. I have hand picked my staff and I have been responsible for some of the most profitable projects for the company in the last few years. So despite that the CEO is a douche, I take pride in my job and have enjoyed it. I know I've done a good job and yes, I make mistakes. Unfortunately I didn't know the history of the one I just got reprimanded for and I do understand why the CEO is upset but nothing I can do now but wait and see what comes my way from it. If I get let go or officially disciplined I will just have to deal with it. 

I haven't really told my H most of this story because I know he would be very upset. If I uttered anything about potentially losing my job he would absolutely be a basketcase thinking about money. (We both work FT but need both incomes to support our family). And at this point it's just an unfounded fear of mine, nothing official has happened so no sense in getting him worried about it.

It is hard though to deal with this on my own and not talk to anyone about it. I've come home the last few nights with a raging headache and my mind spinning so I've been quiet and withdrawn. Not mean or b!tchy, just preoccupied and it shows. He doesn't ask (typical) and I don't volunteer the info. It's kind of funny that we are married but really don't talk much about anything of consequence except for things related to running of the household like bills and the kids. We'll share jokes we heard or TV show gossip or what we heard on the news...but when it comes to those deeper fears and worries and aspirations we don't talk about that stuff. It's part of our underlying problem, he puts walls up and shuts me out so over the years I have learned to withdraw myself too because I feel uncomfortable sharing some things with him. I think I fear making HIM upset because I can tell he doesn't handle it well...like he's too fragile in some ways? I dunno. 

I also made a promise to myself a few years back that I would try very hard to leave work at the door when I come home so I do try very hard to live two seperate lives in that regard and not bring my bad day home with me. Not as easy as it sounds! But that's one of the reasons I choose not to discuss these things at home, too.

It's nice to be able to vent a bit here though so thank you all for listening.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

*Re: Re: Forgive and FORGET*



oldgeezer said:


> That's me to a T.
> 
> And I put up the walls, because if I don't, I just get hurt, hurt, hurt, hurt, hurt, hurt, and it never stops.
> 
> If you care about him in the slightest, YOU WILL STOP HURTING HIM and making him shut you out.


Can I ask you....what could your wife do at this point to get your walls to come down? 

Also...in my own situation, as I came to TAM I began to realize the part that I play in the dynamic in my marraige. However, I think we both need to recognize and be responsible for our own behavior. I can only fix myself. I do not take responsibility for "making him shut me out", because that is a choice that HE makes. I can strive to create the best possible environment for him to feel safe with me, but I cannot MAKE him open up, just like I cannot MAKE him shut me out. 

One thing I think my H doesnt understand is how much I've struggled with truly hating myself for pain that I've caused him (even the stuff that was unintentional and born of naivety). Part of getting my head straight (seeking treatment for my anxiety/depression) has been to learn how to forgive myself and how to be kinder to myself for my transgressions. 

I would really like to hear your side though, and tell me what your wife could do, if anything, from your point of view to fix this.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

So this is a perfect example of what happens when I try to talk to H about anything of significance...

We were texting each other during our lunch break. He asked me how my day was going after we had been texting some stuff about who's getting the kids, what needs to be done when we get home, etc. I mentioned that actually, its not been that great. He asks why, so I give him a cliffs notes response...trouble with CEO still, trying to figure out how to fix the problem and don't think it can be fixed. Worried I will get reprimanded if I can't fix it. He asks what my bosses are doing and why aren't they helping me. So I tell him that this isn't something they can help with...I just need time to think and figure out what to do but my coworkers and staff won't leave me alone long enough to concentrate. 

His response to that was: oh, well I will leave you alone too then.

I made sure I clarified and said, no I didnt mean you. I am taking my only 30 min break of the day and I enjoy talking to you. When I need to be left alone to go back to my desk I will let you know. 

He says...no that's ok, I really am going to leave you alone now so I dont distract you. Talk to you later. 

And that was the end of the convo. 

Head, meet Desk....

I guess I somehow made him uncomfortable? I don't even know what I did. I was enjoying being able to open up a bit to him and he quickly shut it down.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

kag123 said:


> Can I ask you....what could your wife do at this point to get your walls to come down?


Stop doing it. Trust takes a LONG time to build once it gets torn down. Experience is what teaches us these things. I thought she would be or was aware of how she hurt me with things she says and does, but she's just utterly unaware. I've talked to her and it's "I wasn't feeling good", or "I had a rough day" and that's about it. She simply has no idea how utterly gut wrenching it is for me, and when I try to convey it her response is something like "don't be hurt, I'm just upset". I grew up in a home where if you say something, it's meant. I never say things I don't mean. No matter how angry or hurt or otherwise. If you care about someone, you simply don't hurt them willingly by saying hurtful things to them, just to say them. I simply do not understand the notion that you get to unload on someone unless you only pretend to care about them. 



> Also...in my own situation, as I came to TAM I began to realize the part that I play in the dynamic in my marraige. However, I think we both need to recognize and be responsible for our own behavior. I can only fix myself. I do not take responsibility for "making him shut me out", because that is a choice that HE makes. I can strive to create the best possible environment for him to feel safe with me, but I cannot MAKE him open up, just like I cannot MAKE him shut me out.


Oh, you absolutely can and do make him shut you out. If you beat a dog long enough, he eventually dies or comes to understand you're an enemy to his well being and he avoids you. I don't comprehend why anyone can think that you can deliberately say things to hurt someone and expect them not to learn you want to hurt them. What part of that is unreasonable? 



> One thing I think my H doesnt understand is how much I've struggled with truly hating myself for pain that I've caused him (even the stuff that was unintentional and born of naivety). Part of getting my head straight (seeking treatment for my anxiety/depression) has been to learn how to forgive myself and how to be kinder to myself for my transgressions.


Well, perhaps you could try this... when you see that wounded dog look in his eyes, perhaps you should say "I'm sorry" and mean it... and truly accept it when he does. There's nothing that discredits the "I'm sorry" more than not meaning it, but right behind it is not accepting forgiveness yourself. If you don't accept his forgiveness, then he won't feel you trust him, which in turn is reciprocal. 



> I would really like to hear your side though, and tell me what your wife could do, if anything, from your point of view to fix this.


I don't pretend be an expert, nor even successful, and I don't know if my experience is even helpful. I know it's partly personality, but it's also family and culture conditioning. There are many analogies, but the one I like best, is where a young man is told to take a large box of flower petals out into the wind, toss them up in the air... "Those are you words". And watch them fly off out of sight and then "Now go retrieve them". You cannot unsay anything. Once spoken, words then develop a life of their own and you no longer have any influence on the consequences. 

For some, it seems that being in a relationship means you blurt out whatever is on your mind and it's ok. For others (like me) it means you even more carefully weigh your words, because you care enough to not wound with them. 

Either can work, I believe, but only if the other person has a compatible perception.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

kag123 said:


> So this is a perfect example of what happens when I try to talk to H about anything of significance...
> 
> We were texting each other during our lunch break. He asked me how my day was going after we had been texting some stuff about who's getting the kids, what needs to be done when we get home, etc. I mentioned that actually, its not been that great. He asks why, so I give him a cliffs notes response...trouble with CEO still, trying to figure out how to fix the problem and don't think it can be fixed. Worried I will get reprimanded if I can't fix it. He asks what my bosses are doing and why aren't they helping me. So I tell him that this isn't something they can help with...I just need time to think and figure out what to do but my coworkers and staff won't leave me alone long enough to concentrate.
> 
> ...


No, he's trying to be helpful and give you time to concentrate. You gave him a problem and he wants to help solve it - problem being you're not being left alone, so he's trying to help. It's THAT SIMPLE. We men do not need or want to "share" to help us solve problems. We want solutions or time to find them. We're literal and practical. You have a problem, we produce solution, it's direct, logical, and straight forward. 

You have a problem, you want him to listen while you unload about it, so you feel better and can get back to work. From his perspective, you explained a problem, and he provided an effective solution - he stopped taking your time. 

Nothing infuriates me more than my wife yelling about her computer not working ( fixing them is some of what I do for a living) but then getting mad because I say "I'll fix it". No, she doesn't want me to fix it, she wants me to stand helplessly while she gets all mad, frustrated, and vents anger in my direction. Why is she yelling at me about a problem if I'm not supposed to fix it? Why must I be the target of her anger?


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

oldgeezer said:


> No, he's trying to be helpful and give you time to concentrate. You gave him a problem and he wants to help solve it - problem being you're not being left alone, so he's trying to help. It's THAT SIMPLE. We men do not need or want to "share" to help us solve problems. We want solutions or time to find them. We're literal and practical. You have a problem, we produce solution, it's direct, logical, and straight forward.
> 
> You have a problem, you want him to listen while you unload about it, so you feel better and can get back to work. From his perspective, you explained a problem, and he provided an effective solution - he stopped taking your time.
> 
> Nothing infuriates me more than my wife yelling about her computer not working ( fixing them is some of what I do for a living) but then getting mad because I say "I'll fix it". No, she doesn't want me to fix it, she wants me to stand helplessly while she gets all mad, frustrated, and vents anger in my direction. Why is she yelling at me about a problem if I'm not supposed to fix it? *Why must I be the target of her anger?*


:iagree: men are fixers. I know I have to work on my "being vented" at skills and try not always fix, just listen. It's hard.

On the bolded do you eventually get "You're not taking me seriously"?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

*Re: Re: Forgive and FORGET*



CharlieParker said:


> :iagree: men are fixers. I know I have to work on my "being vented" at skills and try not always fix, just listen. It's hard.
> 
> On the bolded do you eventually get "You're not taking me seriously"?


I agree men are fixers. I've heard that before and thanks for reminding me of that in this case. 

It is yet another reason I choose not to share a lot of my thoughts or feelings or even daily life with him outside of the time we are together. It quite obviously puts him outside of his comfort zone and makes things awkward which ends up making me regret that I opened up. 

My long term solution has been to stop sharing myself with him in that way because as you said, I cannot expect (and shouldn't expect) a different reaction. 

Here's another problem in our marraige. I don't need a fixer in my life. I am quite adept at taking care of myself and don't really ever go to him with a problem that needs a solution. I am an only child and grew up fiercely independent and took care of myself. 

Oldgeezer - using your computer example. Before I ever told my H something was wrong with the computer I would have already gone through every trouble shooting remedy in windows and researched tech forums to find similar responses. Tried a few and if it comes to it, take the computer apart and reinstall any new parts that are needed. If THAT still didn't work I would research how much it costs to get a totally new PC. THEN I would tell H, hey somethings wrong, can you take a look and see if you can figure it out? 

99% of the time he will begin the process I already went through, I will tell him nope I already tried that. He'll spend another day trying to figure it out...come up with no solutions (which isn't his fault, he just won't find anything I hadn't already tried). He'll come back and say he doesn't know what's wrong, to which I will reply its ok, already researched how much it will cost to buy a new one. Here's the best model for what we need, here's where it has the cheapest price, looking over the bills it looks like we can buy it on the 18th when you get paid again. He'll just shrug and say ok. 

When the car breaks down, I look up the repair manual and car forums to figure out what could be wrong. I call the mechanic and ask for a diagnostic. Take it to autozone and have it looked over. I price out the repairs. I rearrange my schedule to get it taken care of and figure out how to pay for it. 

That's an example of how I work. I don't need a fixer. I would really enjoy it if we could have some conversation just for the heck of it but doesn't seem to be the case for us anymore, so I have let it go. 

Here's another example of our disconnect: Its pretty dumb but just happened yesterday. 

I have been following a story of a local family who had a little boy, 5 years old, diagnosed with a rare brain tumor. Terminal. His mom started a blog and had been blogging the journey. I dont know these people, I had heard the story on the news and that's how I got connected to the blog. We have a 5 year old boy so the story hit me hard. I had never specifically brought it up to my H before. I did post a few links on my FB here or there, when there was a blog entry I found particularly moving. I had a few friends also following the story. 

Anyway, yesterday the little boy died. His mom wrote a very raw and emotional blog post about his last hours of life and it got me choked up. Not openly sobbing or anything and I tried to hide my tears bc I didn't want to upset my kids. H saw in my face I had been crying and asked what's wrong. I told him that the little boy I had shared about on FB died. He had no idea what I was talking about. He said "oh, I never read your FB posts, you didnt know that kid so why does it matter" 

I dont post on FB often (so its not like I spam the world with hundreds of garbage links or something). I had written a few posts here or there about this story adding in some of my raw thoughts which I never do. Some people who aren't close to me wrote responses to me. H didn't even read it. He's on FB everyday. 

I know that's dumb but it hurt me that he wouldnt just be interested in what I'm up to. He posts things about baseball stats or player injuries or whatever and even though I have zero interest I will read what he posts and mention it to him when we talk IRL. We use our phones and computers sitting right next to each other and each can see the other persons screen. He had seen me reading the blog lots of times. 

Too much to expect of your H? I want to make it clear that I was not mad at him for his honest reply that he hadn't paid attention to the story or read my FB posts. I just shrugged and went to do something else. No further discussion about it. I actually cried a little more about it later that night (the death, not my H's reaction) but waited till he was asleep because I didn't want it to be wierd for him. Silly right? To cry about a kid you never knew.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

CharlieParker said:


> :iagree: men are fixers. I know I have to work on my "being vented" at skills and try not always fix, just listen. It's hard.
> 
> On the bolded do you eventually get "You're not taking me seriously"?


No, it's the "you don't care" routine. 

After enduring her venting rage and anger at me for an extended period of time, she might be right. By the time that happens, I do not really care if she can't do this, or that doesn't work. I've walled her off and she can just go jump off a cliff. Abusing someone emotionally just because you feel like it is NOT what adults should do, especially adults who supposedly care about you.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

kag123 said:


> I agree men are fixers. I've heard that before and thanks for reminding me of that in this case.
> 
> It is yet another reason I choose not to share a lot of my thoughts or feelings or even daily life with him outside of the time we are together. It quite obviously puts him outside of his comfort zone and makes things awkward which ends up making me regret that I opened up.
> 
> My long term solution has been to stop sharing myself with him in that way because as you said, I cannot expect (and shouldn't expect) a different reaction.


You see, that's the problem. You don't speak his language, he doesn't speak yours. And you're angry because he doesn't, and it appears that your approach to is that he's defective until he becomes a woman. ( I'm using a little hyperbole, no insult or offense intended here ) Men do not share their problems unless they want help or a solution. It's just that simple. We don't 'share' that way. It does nothing for us. What both of you need, is to understand each other's language. There's simply on way on earth, that without some serious learning on both your parts, this gets resolved. He is not going to magically come to have you "share" and not respond to what he's perceiving - a problem put to him for a solution. You have to learn his language and he has to learn to understand you, and this will have to be a deliberate and "both of you want to understand it" kind of thing. 



> Here's another problem in our marraige. I don't need a fixer in my life. I am quite adept at taking care of myself and don't really ever go to him with a problem that needs a solution. I am an only child and grew up fiercely independent and took care of myself.
> 
> Oldgeezer - using your computer example. Before I ever told my H something was wrong with the computer I would have already gone through every trouble shooting remedy in windows and researched tech forums to find similar responses. Tried a few and if it comes to it, take the computer apart and reinstall any new parts that are needed. If THAT still didn't work I would research how much it costs to get a totally new PC. THEN I would tell H, hey somethings wrong, can you take a look and see if you can figure it out?
> 
> ...


If you were my wife, I would be so angry at you it would be difficult for me to speak. I AM an expert at both mechanics and computer / network / technology matters. If someone refused to allow me to do what I know how to do, I would consider it to be an insult of immense proportions. I don't tell my wife how to be a doctor or nurse, and in turn, she doesn't generally try to tell me how to be a network administrator or a mechanic. The way I see it, if I am forbidden to fix her computer.. It simply means she has no respect for my abilities. That's not a male/female thing at all. "I can't fix it, but no way on earth will I let you." 



> That's an example of how I work. I don't need a fixer. I would really enjoy it if we could have some conversation just for the heck of it but doesn't seem to be the case for us anymore, so I have let it go.


Ahh, but you can. Just don't expect to describe problems and have him not solve them. If you want to have a heart to heart conversation, then have one, but it can't be you drawing a verbal picture of how you feel - he won't see what you're drawing until both of you learn more about each other's communication mode. 

Here's another example of our disconnect: Its pretty dumb but just happened yesterday. 



> I have been following a story of a local family who had a little boy, 5 years old, diagnosed with a rare brain tumor. Terminal. His mom started a blog and had been blogging the journey. I dont know these people, I had heard the story on the news and that's how I got connected to the blog. We have a 5 year old boy so the story hit me hard. I had never specifically brought it up to my H before. I did post a few links on my FB here or there, when there was a blog entry I found particularly moving. I had a few friends also following the story.
> 
> Anyway, yesterday the little boy died. His mom wrote a very raw and emotional blog post about his last hours of life and it got me choked up. Not openly sobbing or anything and I tried to hide my tears bc I didn't want to upset my kids. H saw in my face I had been crying and asked what's wrong. I told him that the little boy I had shared about on FB died. He had no idea what I was talking about. He said "oh, I never read your FB posts, you didnt know that kid so why does it matter"
> 
> ...


It's fascinating to see what you expect. I don't read my wife's FB stuff much. After all, what she wants to say to me... is not posted on FB. You are judging how much he cares about YOU by how closely he pays attention to what you say to you friends. 

Did you say to him "Hey, I read this story about this little boy that's gut wrenching to me because..."? If not, well, if it wasn't important enough for you to bring up with him, it, well, wasn't all that important - that would be how ** I ** would see it, and I suspect it's relatively true of him as well. 

Again, this is measuring someone else's actions by how you would act. It's not that I'd say it's "unfair", it's just simply "not accurate". In other words, whether he reads what you post on FB or not does not actually in any way indicate his concern, interest, or love for you. 

When I was a kid, any time my parents started digging into what I was doing, the interest was ALWAYS negative - in that either they took it over, or I was in trouble because they thought it was bad, negative, etc. To this day, digging into what I'm doing by my wife causes me endless and gut wrenching stress - as my first reaction is to start defending myself from the inevitable power struggle that always ensued when my parents (mostly father) was alive. I had to defend my independence by hiding everything and never letting them know what I thought. 

How I expressed it at one point is that if I let them know anything mattered, they'd take it away from me, not let me direct my own interests. So, the more I cared about something, the less I would say or show interest in it. Eventually, that manifested itself how and what I thought about my relationship. The more it mattered, the less I could address it. 

Which, of course, conflicted very badly with my wife's belief I should be showing great interest. Yes, I cared. Ergo, I could not speak of it for fear of the results. 

I hope you can see how what we "perceive" can be as wrong as wrong can be. We cannot simply judge other people's inside dialog or what they care about or think simply by our own yardstick. You have a yardstick that doesn't measure him, he has one that doesn't measure you.


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