# Cromer’s Twin?



## DesertH3

I read through the entire Cromer thread and it seems we have the exact same circumstances, i.e. been married 31 years, faithful church attenders, get along in almost every other area, have great kids, wife sees Church as her social circle, and I have a good career and make decent money and I only owe on my house. The differences are I have two children out of the house, and I’m not retired yet. Other than that, it seems like we are twins! Lol

My marriage has been sexless for about the last seven or eight years, but since we went to counseling a little over six months ago, every once in a while (3 or 4 times in 6 months) my wife will offer me a HJ, but it’s more out of duty than desire. She got on hormones, but doesn’t take them half the time. I have zero reason to suspect infidelity, as she’s never been a very sexual person, even in her prime.

I keep thinking to myself “is this bad enough to leave?” I’m sure many others have struggled with that same question. She thinks “we are fine”, since we went to counseling for about 10 or 11 sessions, after I confronted her last June about how I couldn’t take the lack of intimacy and my subsequent resentment. I am dying inside for lack of intimacy. 

Finally, I guess I’m just wrestling with the decision now. I have zero idea as to how she would react if I were to file for divorce. I guess that’s the scary part. 

So, that’s my story and I’m sure I will use this forum as a journal. Just wanted to say hello and thank you to everyone who has helped me by posting their situations.


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## Anastasia6

DesertH3 said:


> I read through the entire Cromer thread and it seems we have the exact same circumstances, i.e. been married 31 years, faithful church attenders, get along in almost every other area, have great kids, wife sees Church as her social circle, and I have a good career and make decent money and I only owe on my house. The differences are I have two children out of the house, and I’m not retired yet. Other than that, it seems like we are twins! Lol
> 
> My marriage has been sexless for about the last seven or eight years, but since we went to counseling a little over six months ago, every once in a while (3 or 4 times in 6 months) my wife will offer me a HJ, but it’s more out of duty than desire. She got on hormones, but doesn’t take them half the time. I have zero reason to suspect infidelity, as she’s never been a very sexual person, even in her prime.
> 
> I keep thinking to myself “is this bad enough to leave?” I’m sure many others have struggled with that same question. She thinks “we are fine”, since we went to counseling for about 10 or 11 sessions, after I confronted her last June about how I couldn’t take the lack of intimacy and my subsequent resentment. I am dying inside for lack of intimacy.
> 
> Finally, I guess I’m just wrestling with the decision now. I have zero idea as to how she would react if I were to file for divorce. I guess that’s the scary part.
> 
> So, that’s my story and I’m sure I will use this forum as a journal. Just wanted to say hello and thank you to everyone who has helped me by posting their situations.


Sorry you are here. What was covered in Counseling because it sure doesn't seem like sex was. Or you have made her feel like a handjob every once in a while is all you need.

Does she have physical issues that prevent regular sex?
Do you offer non-sexual touching?
Do you two date?
Do you know her love language?

It's good she's trying. But why does she think everything is ok?


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## Al_Bundy

DesertH3 said:


> she’s never been a very sexual person, even in her prime.


This is the part in stories like this I don't understand. You meet a woman, you're both young and she's not very sexual. But you wife her up anyways and years later, surprise surprise, the young woman who wasn't into sex is now an old woman who isn't into sex.

Not dumping on you, just honestly don't understand. Yes I know people have other qualities, but sex is something you can't compromise on. You can't negotiate or counsel your way to genuine desire.


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## jonty30

DesertH3 said:


> I read through the entire Cromer thread and it seems we have the exact same circumstances, i.e. been married 31 years, faithful church attenders, get along in almost every other area, have great kids, wife sees Church as her social circle, and I have a good career and make decent money and I only owe on my house. The differences are I have two children out of the house, and I’m not retired yet. Other than that, it seems like we are twins! Lol
> 
> My marriage has been sexless for about the last seven or eight years, but since we went to counseling a little over six months ago, every once in a while (3 or 4 times in 6 months) my wife will offer me a HJ, but it’s more out of duty than desire. She got on hormones, but doesn’t take them half the time. I have zero reason to suspect infidelity, as she’s never been a very sexual person, even in her prime.
> 
> I keep thinking to myself “is this bad enough to leave?” I’m sure many others have struggled with that same question. She thinks “we are fine”, since we went to counseling for about 10 or 11 sessions, after I confronted her last June about how I couldn’t take the lack of intimacy and my subsequent resentment. I am dying inside for lack of intimacy.
> 
> Finally, I guess I’m just wrestling with the decision now. I have zero idea as to how she would react if I were to file for divorce. I guess that’s the scary part.
> 
> So, that’s my story and I’m sure I will use this forum as a journal. Just wanted to say hello and thank you to everyone who has helped me by posting their situations.


The fact that you're wife has never been supposedly sexual is a difference between you and Cromer. Cromer's wife was very sexual with him until she picked up an STD from one of her affairs.
I say supposedly for you because most women, who aren't sexual, just aren't sexual with the guy she is with. Give her somebody else and she won't get enough of him. 
She can be faithful to you and still not be sexual with you.


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## DesertH3

Anastasia6 said:


> Sorry you are here. What was covered in Counseling because it sure doesn't seem like sex was. Or you have made her feel like a handjob every once in a while is all you need.
> 
> Does she have physical issues that prevent regular sex?
> Do you offer non-sexual touching?
> Do you two date?
> Do you know her love language?
> 
> It's good she's trying. But why does she think everything is ok?


I agree- the counselor didn’t want to cover a lot of the sexual issues as he thought the root of it was communication, despite my insistence to the contrary.

She had a hysterectomy just over 10 years ago and refused HRT because her doctor told her it would cause cancer.

There is some non-sexual touching. We hug and I get a kiss like you get from your aunt at the family reunion, each morning before she goes to work.

We do not date, per se. Tried that and she just wants to talk or eat not be romantic at all.

Her love language is “acts of service” and I perform those everyday. She very rarely speaks mine (words of affirmation).

I believe she knows I’m not happy and have not been happy since I told her I can’t keep doing this. I have been faithful and not strayed.


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## DesertH3

Al_Bundy said:


> This is the part in stories like this I don't understand. You meet a woman, you're both young and she's not very sexual. But you wife her up anyways and years later, surprise surprise, the young woman who wasn't into sex is now an old woman who isn't into sex.
> 
> Not dumping on you, just honestly don't understand. Yes I know people have other qualities, but sex is something you can't compromise on. You can't negotiate or counsel your way to genuine desire.


I agree with you, now that I see it in hindsight, but we were both virgins when we married and I had no clue. Besides, we went at it probably 3-5x per week when first married, but I learned quickly she didn’t think sex was for pure enjoyment and exploration. We had 2 kids and I got enough where I wasn’t miserable, but since my daughter left the house nearly 7 years ago, it has been virtually non-existent.


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## Marc878

It’s your life. Is this how you want to live it?


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## DesertH3

Marc878 said:


> It’s your life. Is this how you want to live it?


No- it is not. I know I can’t keep doing this, but honestly, the thought of unwinding 31 years of marriage, telling my adult children, and the associated unknowns of that are just not very fun to think about. I guess I just need to find my pair and make a decision.


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## Marc878

DesertH3 said:


> No- it is not. I know I can’t keep doing this, but honestly, the thought of unwinding 31 years of marriage, telling my adult children, and the associated unknowns of that are just not very fun to think about. I guess I just need to find my pair and make a decision.


Most have trouble making decisions. Unfortunately it’s an either or for you.
You’ve already seen talk or words don’t get you much.


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## wmn1

jonty30 said:


> The fact that you're wife has never been supposedly sexual is a difference between you and Cromer. Cromer's wife was very sexual with him until she picked up an STD from one of her affairs.
> I say supposedly for you because most women, who aren't sexual, just aren't sexual with the guy she is with. Give her somebody else and she won't get enough of him.
> She can be faithful to you and still not be sexual with you.


plus Cromer's wife was loyal to her affair partner, as Comer stated. When he came back from military duty, she decided that her and Cromer were friends and her love for him was platonic. I think that was the main reason.

None-the-less, it doesn't matter. Cromer's wife was a very bad situation for him. Glad he moved on.


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## wmn1

DesertH3 said:


> No- it is not. I know I can’t keep doing this, but honestly, the thought of unwinding 31 years of marriage, telling my adult children, and the associated unknowns of that are just not very fun to think about. I guess I just need to find my pair and make a decision.


31 years and this ??? 

Maybe she's not sexual. 

But with Cromer, it was another man involved.

If you don't think this is the case, then what else could it be ? Yes, some shun sex but you said early on it was frequent. You need to determine what caused the change in order to move on or make an honest decision going forward


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## SunCMars

Chemicals we are, chemicals we are made up of.

Some make us warm, some make us cool.

Some make us loving, the absence of some, makes us abstinent.

We are those ruled, never so, are we our own master.



_King Brian-_


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## farsidejunky

DesertH3 said:


> I agree- the counselor didn’t want to cover a lot of the sexual issues as he thought the root of it was communication, despite my insistence to the contrary.
> 
> She had a hysterectomy just over 10 years ago and refused HRT because her doctor told her it would cause cancer.
> 
> There is some non-sexual touching. We hug and I get a kiss like you get from your aunt at the family reunion, each morning before she goes to work.
> 
> We do not date, per se. Tried that and she just wants to talk or eat not be romantic at all.
> 
> Her love language is “acts of service” and I perform those everyday. She very rarely speaks mine (words of affirmation).
> 
> I believe she knows I’m not happy and have not been happy since I told her I can’t keep doing this. I have been faithful and not strayed.


What would happen if you stopped?

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## DesertH3

farsidejunky said:


> What would happen if you stopped?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


I think that’s the next logical step. I have no idea what would happen, as she has never known anything else. Time to find out I guess. Appreciate the reply, FSJ.


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## SunCMars

Me?

I think Cromer saw one of @Bandit45's posts (suggesting this cheating scenario) and ran with it, adding it to his saga. 

This revelation of his, literally, came out of nowhere. 

Um, yes.



_King Brian-_


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## Cromer

SunCMars said:


> Me?
> 
> I think Cromer saw one of @Bandit45's posts (suggesting this cheating scenario) and ran with it, adding it to his saga.
> 
> This revelation of his, literally, came out of nowhere.
> 
> Um, yes.
> 
> 
> 
> _King Brian-_


I'm not sure what this means. I have no idea. What are you talking about?

There are times I wished that I'd never posted here. I heard a lot of hard truths. Until a few weeks ago I hadn't posted much for a long while, but I was home alone for a bit so I posted some thoughts. She's thankfully home safe and doing her thing as a teacher in the Free State of Florida.

I'm in such a great place. I appreciate how the input of the TAM community helped me to think about important issues in my life. But I think my time here is done. @SunCMars WTF are you talking about? No matter. I have no purpose here anymore. I thank all of you for your support over the most formative years of my senior life. TAM is a great community, and for those who genuinely want to help people, I wish you the best!


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## Noman

DesertH3 said:


> There is some non-sexual touching. We hug and I get a kiss like you get from your aunt at the family reunion, each morning before she goes to work.
> 
> We do not date, per se. Tried that and she just wants to talk or eat not be romantic at all.
> 
> Her love language is “acts of service” and I perform those everyday. She very rarely speaks mine (words of affirmation).


1. Make that hug a good, long one, with some back scratching & a good squeeze at the end (don't forget to play with her boobs a little.) And make that kiss full on the mouth for at least 10 seconds, every day. Try to work up to 'making out'.

2. I honestly don't understand dating your spouse. What am I supposed to do, hop in the car, head down the driveway, circle around the cul-de-sac, then pull back into the driveway to pick her up?

I'm being stupid. I know. But do you two do things together? Do you have shared interests?

My wife & I have tickets for an immersive Sistine Chapel experience next week. It's something we'll both like (unless it sux) & we'll combine it with our annual anniversary dinner, which I guess is...sort of a date.

Hopefully your whole life doesn't revolve around church. There are other things to do.

3. You may _never_ hear your words of affirmation (and I feel your pain,) but _you're the man_, literally & figuratively, and it's up to you to lead. That means sucking it up & maybe doing without those words. I'm assuming you're pretty high on the physical part of the Love Language, also, or you wouldn't be talking about sex. So be a good leader, and lead her into the bedroom. Show her a good time, make sure you have a good time. Things might start warming up.



SunCMars said:


> Chemicals we are, chemicals we are made up of.
> 
> Some make us warm, some make us cool.
> 
> Some make us loving, the absence of some, makes us abstinent.
> 
> We are those ruled, never so, are we our own master.


@SunCMars spot on as usual. So, @DesertH3, start "manipulating those chemicals."

Get a bottle of liquid libido. I find flavored vodka works great.

Do some shots with your wife! Either before, at the dining room table, in the TV room, in the kitchen, or after you're in the bedroom.

Small talk in between a couple of shots, you'll probably find kissing begins at some point & from there you know what to do! Make her sore for a few days!

And check out lingerie on Amazon. You can get some nice items for less than $20. If body image is an issue, a little modesty might make your wife feel more comfortable, or sexy!

Oh, and be sure to look at the customer photos that people have uploaded for that lingerie, it's...tantalizing. Maybe look at them with the missus when you give her the lingerie, it might turn her on too.


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## Blondilocks

I think member @Young at Heart is able to provide some very valuable input.


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## In Absentia

You must be in your fifties. If you don't want to divorce your wife, ask for an open marriage.


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## Marc878

DesertH3 said:


> I think that’s the next logical step. I have no idea what would happen, as she has never known anything else. Time to find out I guess. Appreciate the reply, FSJ.


This is probably you’re only decent action left. Doing what you’ve been doing will get you more of what you’ve been getting. Start going your own way. Get out of the rinse and repeat mode. 
Talk = nothing.


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## Diceplayer

DesertH3 said:


> She had a hysterectomy just over 10 years ago and refused HRT because her doctor told her it would cause cancer.
> 
> Her love language is “acts of service” and I perform those everyday. She very rarely speaks mine (words of affirmation).
> 
> I believe she knows I’m not happy and have not been happy since I told her I can’t keep doing this. I have been faithful and not strayed.


My wife had a hysterectomy 8 years ago, doesn't take HRT and we're having sex 2=3 times per week so for your wife, this is just an excuse.
You are meeting her needs while she is not addressing yours. Stop this today. Don't do anything for her. When she starts to whine about it, tell her, you don't meet my needs so I'm not meeting yours.

Yes, she knows you are unhappy and she doesn't care. Her needs are met and she doesn't have to do anything for you because she knows that you are not going anywhere. Nothing will change until you do.


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## DesertH3

Diceplayer said:


> My wife had a hysterectomy 8 years ago, doesn't take HRT and we're having sex 2=3 times per week so for your wife, this is just an excuse.
> You are meeting her needs while she is not addressing yours. Stop this today. Don't do anything for her. When she starts to whine about it, tell her, you don't meet my needs so I'm not meeting yours.
> 
> Yes, she knows you are unhappy and she doesn't care. Her needs are met and she doesn't have to do anything for you because she knows that you are not going anywhere. Nothing will change until you do.


I appreciate this response. You’re exactly right; “nothing will change until you do”. Gut punch, but the truth.


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## ccpowerslave

DesertH3 said:


> I have zero idea as to how she would react if I were to file for divorce. I guess that’s the scary part.


Have you really sat down with her and explained this or is it all through a mediator?

You don’t need a councilor or therapist to tell her what is going on.


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## Talker67

there is a recurring and sad portion to all of these tales. 
the HD partner thinks about having sex all the time, and really craves it.

the LD partner, likely because they no longer have any sex hormones in their body, do NOT think about sex. You can talk to them about sex until you are blue in the face, and they might even agree to all sorts of things--but the next day they have forgotten the conversation. Its almost like their brain erases everything from memory about sex. Including those marriage counseling sessions you had years ago!

really the only hope would be her taking her HRT therapy regularly....and she is just forgetting to do it. sounds like you are stuck in a bad place.

Tell her you are thinking of leaving because she no longer provides sex for you. See if that wakes her up enough!


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## Noman

@DesertH3 you said in your original post "...every once in a while (3 or 4 times in 6 months) my wife will offer me a HJ..."

How often do _you_ initiate, and what is the response like? What's the ratio of yes to no?

If you're waiting on HER to come to YOU for sex then it's not surprising you're not getting any.

Let out your inner caveman.


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## DesertH3

Noman said:


> @DesertH3 you said in your original post "...every once in a while (3 or 4 times in 6 months) my wife will offer me a HJ..."
> 
> How often do _you_ initiate, and what is the response like? What's the ratio of yes to no?
> 
> If you're waiting on HER to come to YOU for sex then it's not surprising you're not getting any.
> 
> Let out your inner caveman.


I no longer initiate based upon years of rejection. Now that she suspects she may lose me, she thinks that limited act of an occasional HJ is enough.

She sporadically takes HRT, but forgets about half the time (she was prescribed this about 4 months ago) All of this was to see if the HRT worked or if she just doesn’t desire me. That’s why I’ve been stuck in limbo. I know the answer now- it’s not that important to her. So, I need to just man up at this point, which I should have done WAY before now. Lesson learned.

And the ratio of yes to no was about 1 yes for every 50 no’s. So, the rejection was killing me and I stopped asking.


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## Talker67

DesertH3 said:


> I no longer initiate based upon years of rejection. Now that she suspects she may lose me, she thinks that limited act of an occasional HJ is enough.
> 
> She sporadically takes HRT, but forgets about half the time (she was prescribed this about 4 months ago) All of this was to see if the HRT worked or if she just doesn’t desire me. That’s why I’ve been stuck in limbo. I know the answer now- it’s not that important to her. So, I need to just man up at this point, which I should have done WAY before now. Lesson learned.
> 
> And the ratio of yes to no was about 1 yes for every 50 no’s. So, the rejection was killing me and I stopped asking.


Her seeing the doctor and getting a prescription of the hormones WAS a big step on her part. 
Now just hammer in that she really needs to give it a try. the next two months, say she has to take them, as an experiment, to see if her dispotion improves. you will be tracking her taking them.

then see if anything changes. It may not be hormones, but instead she simply dislikes sex. some women do!

If there IS an improvement after taking the drugs for 2 months, then it is a clear choice. Since this is so important to you, Either she keeps taking them or you leave. two options.
let her decide.


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## ccpowerslave

DesertH3 said:


> I no longer initiate based upon years of rejection. Now that she suspects she may lose me, she thinks that limited act of an occasional HJ is enough.


So from your OP it’s not clear to me that she ever met your needs?

If she didn’t even in the distant past then yeah it’s not reasonable to expect her to become a different person although if she loves you maybe she will try.

The fact that she’s trying to do anything means she does want to be with you at some level. So why don’t you sit down and explain it in plain language and what it means and what you want? No mediator just gave a serious discussion about it.

Ultimately if it’s a deal breaker for you then you need to do what you need to do, but as you describe it here she is maybe willing to work with you.


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## DesertH3

ccpowerslave said:


> So from your OP it’s not clear to me that she ever met your needs?
> 
> If she didn’t even in the distant past then yeah it’s not reasonable to expect her to become a different person although if she loves you maybe she will try.
> 
> The fact that she’s trying to do anything means she does want to be with you at some level. So why don’t you sit down and explain it in plain language and what it means and what you want? No mediator just gave a serious discussion about it.
> 
> Ultimately if it’s a deal breaker for you then you need to do what you need to do, but as you describe it here she is maybe willing to work with you.


She did meet my needs in the past though it was less than what I would have liked, it was satisfactory.

It stopped about 7-8 years ago. Just gone. Hysterectomy. Refused HRT because of cancer risk.

I think she is “trying” in order to avoid losing her lifestyle and the embarrassment of a failed marriage.

I sat down and explained it in plain English just over 6 months ago. Not much has changed other than what I mentioned earlier. Ultimately, I agree; it’s a dealbreaker.


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## Livvie

I don't know why everyone thinks that HRT is some magical cure for a person's personality issues.

Sure it can help with libido and menopausal symptoms, but it's not going to magically make your wife attracted to you and in love with you and change her personality into that of a caring, warm, giving person.

If she wasn't any of that before, she aint gonna be it on HRT 😆


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## ccpowerslave

DesertH3 said:


> I sat down and explained it in plain English just over 6 months ago. Not much has changed other than what I mentioned earlier. Ultimately, I agree; it’s a dealbreaker.


Gah that sucks, sorry to hear that but it sounds like you did everything right and that’s that.

HJ wouldn’t cut it for me. BJ well… if PIV and anal were off the table for life my wife has gotten quite adept at oral so for me it would be a consideration but every 6 months only? Hell no…


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## Young at Heart

DesertH3 said:


> ......i.e. been married 31 years, ...... get along in almost every other area, have great kids, wife sees Church as her social circle, and I have a good career and make decent money and I only owe on my house. The differences are I have two children out of the house, and I’m not retired yet. Other than that, it seems like we are twins! Lol
> 
> *My marriage has been sexless for about the last seven or eight years, b*ut since we went to counseling a little over six months ago,* every once in a while (3 or 4 times in 6 months) my wife will offer me a HJ, but it’s more out of duty than desire.* She got on hormones, but doesn’t take them half the time. I have zero reason to suspect infidelity, as she’s never been a very sexual person, even in her prime.
> 
> I keep thinking to myself “is this bad enough to leave?” I’m sure many others have struggled with that same question. She thinks “we are fine”, since we went to counseling for about 10 or 11 sessions, after I confronted her last June about how I couldn’t take the lack of intimacy and my subsequent resentment. I am dying inside for lack of intimacy.
> 
> .....*I have zero idea as to how she would react if I were to file for divorce. I guess that’s the scary part.*





DesertH3 said:


> I agree- *the counselor didn’t want to cover a lot of the sexual issues as he thought the root of it was communication,* despite my insistence to the contrary.
> 
> *She had a hysterectomy just over 10 years ago* and refused HRT because her doctor told her it would cause cancer.
> 
> There is some non-sexual touching.* We hug and I get a kiss* like you get from your aunt at the family reunion, e*ach morning before she goes to work.*
> 
> We do not date, per se. Tried that and she just wants to talk or eat not be romantic at all.
> 
> *Her love language is “acts of service” *and I perform those everyday. She very rarely speaks mine (words of affirmation).
> 
> I believe she knows I’m not happy and have not been happy since I told her I can’t keep doing this. I have been faithful and not strayed.





Blondilocks said:


> I think member @Young at Heart is able to provide some very valuable input.


First. Thank you Blondilocks. I apologize for the length of this post.

After about 38 years, I found myself in a Sex Starved marriage. By the way that is a technical term about how much sex one has in a multi-month period.

What I had been told is that you require at least a month of marriage counseling for each year that your marriage has had a problem to work on resolving that problem. When you started marriage counseling did you establish goals with the marriage counselor on what you hoped to achieve and when you would have a formal evaluation to see if it was worth continuing? Did you talk to multiple marriage counselors and find out their backgrounds and approaches?

My wife's prime and secondary love languages are Acts of Service and Quality Time. Mine are Touch (which is not sex) and words of affirmation (praise). We had two adult children, who were living on there own. We both still worked.

Our oldest child was about to get married when I finally reached my limit in my the sex starved marriage. My wife was approaching her 60th birthday. I spent a lot of time on introspection to figure out what I really wanted prior to reaching my limit. I felt like I was the victim of a frigid woman, who hurt me emotionally is so many ways. I started to read relationship books and articles. What I quickly concluded was if I just divorced my wife, there was a good chance that I would just find myself in a rebound relationship that would likely have a similar ending. That conclusion really spurred me to work on healing myself before I did anything rash. For the sake of our 38 years of marriage and our children, I also wanted to try to heal our marriage if I could and if I couldn't at least know and be able to tell our children that I tried.

Obviously you have read Chapman's 5 Languages of Love. That book helped me a lot after I really thought about how it applied to my marriage. My wife was Acts of Service and Quality Time. She expressed her love for me when she cooked a hot home made meal for me and had it ready when I arrived home. That is what she saw her mom do, growing up. Sitting down at the table for dinner and discussing our lives was quality time for her. I learned that I had hurt her deeply by focusing on my career (and telling myself I was doing it to be a good provider). Sometimes I would loose track of time at work and come home to a ruined dinner and an angry wife who felt her gesture of "love" in her love language had been rejected. Obviously, she was in no mood to sit down at the dinner table for her quality time. She would criticize me (AKA show me she didn't love me in my secondary love language) and things would go downhill from there. 

When I felt like showing how much I loved her, I would hug her and/or rub her back. If she wasn't feeling close to me, she would yell at me saying all I did was paw at her body to get in her pants. Other times, if I praised her to show her how much I loved her, she would sometimes yell at me to stop buttering her up just to have sex with her. What I finally realized (it took her much longer to understand) that during the portion of our sex starved marriage, we were actually telling each other how much we loved each other on a regular basis, but only in our own love languages. I learned that I must show her my love for her in HER love languages, not mine. She could not understand my love languages and took my motives wrong. When I finally started to make her feel loved and cherished in her love languages, thing improved a bit.

I was also reading lots of relationship books to figure out what I needed to do to become a different person for either my wife or the next woman in my life if I divorced her. Two major books for me (and I view them as companion books which say mostly the same thing, but from different perspectives) were M.W. Davis, the Sex Starved Marriage and Glover's book No More Mr. Nice Guy. I suggest that you buy both and study them both and think about them alot.

M.W. Davis book has a few major themes. One is that you don't have to just accept the status quo, you can do things to change the dynamic in a relationship. You can't control your partner and changing things may be for the worse, but that will be up to what your partner decides to do in response to any changes you make. She talks a lot about 180's. In essence if what you are doing doesn't work or bring you happiness, then try something completely different. It is a process of trial and error until you get a desired response from your spouse. At that point you need to provide her with positive feedback so she wants to do something your like again. Think Pavlov's dog or BF Skinner. Then you try something slightly different and if that results in an even better response, again positive feedback. You have to accept that she is the one that decides what her responses will be to any change in your behavior. 

Let me give you an example that was extremely hard for me to learn. Often if she started to feel emotionally close to me or romantic, she would pick a fight with me. After 38 years of marriage she knew all my hot buttons. My 180 to change the dynamic in our marriage, was that when she tried to pick a fight with me, I had to not respond with anger or engage in an argument with her. By changing my behavior, what she did in the past to remain distant no longer worked. She had to adjust her behavior as it was no longer working. 

M. W. Davis also is big into "Getting a Life," which is code words for exercise, improving yourself, gaining confidence in yourself and taking better care of yourself. My GIL included doing a bunch of exercise and taking up hobbies I had dropped when we first got married. I lost 50 pounds, started doing endurance running and bicycling events. Doing hiking and mountain climbing without her. After I Iost weight, I got a new wardrobe and took pride in my appearance. Not only did my wife notice the change in my, some of her friends and coworkers commented about how good I was looking.

Glover's book NMMRG is a companion book to MW Davis approach. Glover also stresses the importance of Getting a Life. But his approach goes much farther he points out that most men are "raised and educated" by women authority figures. Sometime even at work there are women authority figures. These "men" are taught at an early age to be come codependent upon women and seek their approval for validation. They are raised to not become independent and integrated men. They are raised to go from seeking a mother's approval, a care takers approval, a teachers approval, and finally a wife's approval as to how to achieve pride and happiness. One of the really sick things such Nice Guys do is to engage in covert contracts. This is where you look at your wife and say to yourself, I will do the dishes and laundry and if I do that she will have sex with me. Well that may be a great little contract in your mind, but she isn't part of that deal, so if you do it and it doesn't work don't be upset. Most Nice Guys will double down and say if dishes and laundry didn't work, I will add doing the vaccuming and cooking some of the dinners, as that will surely get her to have sex with me. Nope that will not work either.

The opposite of no longer being a Nice Guy is not becoming a jerk. It is becoming an integrated man who is independent, proud of himself, confident, and worthy of being loved by a good woman.

Another great book was Sue Johnson's book, Hold Me Tight. She invented or perfected the emotionally focused system of marriage therapy. An other good set of books were by Dr David Schnarch. His first book The Passionate Marriage was one of the hardest graduate school college level textbooks I have every struggle through. His books the Cruicible and Intimacy and Desire were easier reads. He taught me that marriage was the hardest thing that two people could do. It is a constant battle to force you to emotionally grow. As you move from dating to marriage, to parents, to saving for college and retirement you are constantly in a push pull emotional struggle with your spouse based on you new roles and responsibilities. Perhaps more importantly, there is no "right amount of sex" throughout a marriage. What is a good compromise during the honeymoon may be totally wrong with two small children in the house. Again, there is not right amount of sex, as there is no right number of children, not right amount of chocolate ice cream per week for after dinner.

So after several months, I really changed who I was, I started to make my wife feel cherished and loved again. I realized that I was not the victim of a frigid woman, but part of the problem. My wife was liking how she felt and afraid I was drifting away from her. She still didn't want to have sex with me, but the dynamic had changed a lot.

It was at this point that I suggested marriage counseling, but with a sex therapist. Sex therapists are marriage counselors who have extra training in couple's sexual problems. I looked up most the sex therapists in the area and their backgrounds and approaches. I also asked my wife to get a set of recommendations for sex therapists from the woman's doctor she went to. I showed her the names and websites of the top three sex therapists, I had researched. She gave me her list and I researched them. Luckily for me the best of all I saw was on her list. I favor marriage counselors who have been trained in the emotionally focused and Gottman approaches. One of the board certified sex therapists on her list was incredibly good based on past article she had written, the regional talk shows and advice columns she authored, and her training. I suggested we go to that sex therapist on her list.

The ST earned her keep. My wife really fought tooth and mail the ST in addressing our sex starved marriage. The ST provided us with weekly readings as homework or sometimes exercises we were to do together. These ranged from artiles on intimacy, Yes/No/Maybe lists to fill out and discuss, video's on sexual techniques to watch and discuss, to Sensate Focus exercises. We also had assignment to visualize what a "good marriage" between us would look like in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years. My wife didn't want to do most of the homework and rebelled at times during the sessions. The ST was calm professional and always focused my wife back on the sessions and homework were to try to provide her with help in improving her marriage.

The turning point came on session, when the ST asked my wife what my wife thought would eventually happen if we never had sex again. My wife avoided answering and the ST kept bringing her back to the question. My wife finally admited that we would probably divorce. The ST told her that her experience that was the likely outcome. The ST then looked at me and asked if I had ever thought about divorce? I said that yes I had. In fact I had looked up the divorce laws in our state and was especially interested in finding out how long it took from filing divorce papers to the divorce being final. I then added that a few months earlier, I had promised myself before we started therapy that I would be in a loving sexual relationship by a certain milestone birthday that was about 18 months away. I was committed to trying to save my marriage as I wanted my wife to be the woman I was in a loving sexual relationship with, but if she couldn't do that I would divorce her and move on.

My wife and the ST were both stunned. The ST recovered first and said that was quite reasonable and gave my wife time to figure out what she wanted' what she needed to do, if she wanted the marriage to continue; or to come to grips with the emotional consequences of her actions if she wanted the marriage to fail. She told me that I was a good man and that I would not have a problem finding a woman who would cherish and love me sexually. She then discussed with my wife what they have both learned and how my wife needed to either change her treatment of me or live with the consequences of her actions. The next several ST sessions were mostly about the ST working with me to define what I considered a "loving sexual relationship" with my wife listening to understand and the ST making sure that as the concepts were defined my wife really knew what was required of the woman who would be in my life.

It took a couple months after that of additional ST sessions, but my wife decided she wanted to remain married and we gradually started to have sex again. You talked about duty sex. One of the hardest concepts for me to accept was that my wife truly had a low sex drive, much lower than mine. The negotiated frequency of sex started out at three times a week, but that overwhelmed my wife. The ST negotiated it down to twice a week, which was less than I wanted, but an amount I could live with and be happy and an amount that was at the upper limit of what my wife could do. Back to the point, at that frequency there will be times when we both know how important sex is to our marriage that we will have sex and my wife will be giving me the gift of her body so that we can be emotionally connected in an act of love making. I like sexually satisfying her and bringing her to orgasm. But sometimes, it is more important to accept her gift of love and emotional connection.

Sorry for the length of this post. Good luck to you. Remember, you really need to heal yourself, you are not a victim, and in fact unknowingly, you are probably part of the problem in your marriage. Once you recognize that and make changes in yourself and the way your treat your wife, things may (or may not) improve.


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## Young at Heart

DesertH3 said:


> I no longer initiate based upon years of rejection. Now that she suspects she may lose me, she thinks that limited act of an occasional HJ is enough.
> 
> She sporadically takes HRT, but forgets about half the time (she was prescribed this about *4 months ago*) All of this was to see if the HRT worked or if she just doesn’t desire me. That’s why I’ve been stuck in limbo. I know the answer now- it’s not that important to her. So, I need to just man up at this point, which I should have done WAY before now. Lesson learned.
> 
> And the ratio of yes to no was about 1 yes for every 50 no’s. *So, the rejection was killing me and I stopped asking.*


You are blaming this on the HRT not working because she is not taking the meds. You need to stop that and you need to forgive her, in my opinion. She is a big girl and knows what she is doing and also needs to take responsibility for her life and the consequences of her actions. 

It was a big deal getting the medication 4 months ago. That is also not a lot of time for new habits to become a life style. HRT therapy is not something that flips a switch inside a woman and causes her to go all nympho on you. Have you been supportive of her doing this? When she forgets to take the medication does she know you are upset with her? I would bet she does.

Have you ever thought that she may not feel like a woman anymore and possibly punishing herself on a subconscious level? You may feel it is her rejecting you, but it may be her rejecting herself and her status as a woman. You will never know until you really discuss this with her. She may even not understand that she is subconsciously sabotaging her marriage by her actions. There is a lot more to marital happiness than just PIV sex. There are sensual feelings you can each give each other. There are also other ways to provide sexual pleasure. The HJ's you referred to as not enough or just duty sex on her part, should have probably been accepted with more love and gratitude on your part. She may have felt her attempts via an occasional HJ were as seriously rejected as you feel your attempts at initiating PIV.

Perhaps if you apologize to her for emotionally hurting her and making her feel bad by rejecting her HJ's or your not initiating, she can try to please you gradually in ways she can cope with.

I really suggest that the two of you seek help with a sex therapist. Ask your marriage counselor for a referral to a top notch sex therapist.

Good luck.


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## Wolfman1968

Cromer said:


> I'm not sure what this means. I have no idea. What are you talking about?
> 
> There are times I wished that I'd never posted here. I heard a lot of hard truths. Until a few weeks ago I hadn't posted much for a long while, but I was home alone for a bit so I posted some thoughts. She's thankfully home safe and doing her thing as a teacher in the Free State of Florida.
> 
> I'm in such a great place. I appreciate how the input of the TAM community helped me to think about important issues in my life. But I think my time here is done. @SunCMars WTF are you talking about? No matter. I have no purpose here anymore. I thank all of you for your support over the most formative years of my senior life. TAM is a great community, and for those who genuinely want to help people, I wish you the best!


 I hope you don't go.

Although you have recovered from your divorce trauma and landed in a great place, you may still help others in need. You know, kind of paying it forward.

Also, hearing about how you came out OK can inspire others in similar straits.


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## ConanHub

DesertH3 said:


> I no longer initiate based upon years of rejection. Now that she suspects she may lose me, she thinks that limited act of an occasional HJ is enough.


Just say "Don't give me no lines and keep your hands to yourself!"

You are truly putting up the the ridiculous.

There are quite a few amorous women in our age range.

I'm very blessed to be married to one.

I have a very no nonsense way about me when it comes to issues like this. Mrs. C and I had one bump in our road on her part, several years ago and I dealt with it in a very upfront but loving way and it turned us around.

You are probably a more measured and patient man than me however, so someone like @farsidejunky , who overcame, might have a better path for you.

If you want to hear what happened and how I reacted, let me know.

I didn't draw a line in the sand about our problem.

I struck the ground with my staff, looked directly at the problem and said "You shall not pass!"


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## ConanHub

Wolfman1968 said:


> I hope you don't go.
> 
> Although you have recovered from your divorce trauma and landed in a great place, you may still help others in need. You know, kind of paying it forward.
> 
> Also, hearing about how you came out OK can inspire others in similar straits.


I second this.


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## oldshirt

Livvie said:


> I don't know why everyone thinks that HRT is some magical cure for a person's personality issues.
> 
> Sure it can help with libido and menopausal symptoms, but it's not going to magically make your wife attracted to you and in love with you and change her personality into that of a caring, warm, giving person.
> 
> If she wasn't any of that before, she aint gonna be it on HRT 😆


I agree with this as well.

yes HRT can effect a physiological libido and response to stimulation, but if you are dealing with an attraction issue (which after 7-8 YEARS is surely a big part of the issue) HRT is not going to make you attracted to and comfortable with a person you have basically been roommates and coparents with. 

In fact I will go so far to say that pumping hormones into her will make her more likely to respond to Sven From Yoga or Zack down the street than to her roommate of the past 8 years.


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## Divinely Favored

DesertH3 said:


> She did meet my needs in the past though it was less than what I would have liked, it was satisfactory.
> 
> It stopped about 7-8 years ago. Just gone. Hysterectomy. Refused HRT because of cancer risk.
> 
> I think she is “trying” in order to avoid losing her lifestyle and the embarrassment of a failed marriage.
> 
> I sat down and explained it in plain English just over 6 months ago. Not much has changed other than what I mentioned earlier. Ultimately, I agree; it’s a dealbreaker.


BS! Cancer risk my ass. The Dr that told her that was not comfortable prescribing it because they did not know about it. She just don't see your needs as important. 

My wife had complete hysterectomy 10 yrs ago. The Dr that did it was the Chief Oncologist at the Women's Cancer Center at Baylor Medical in Dallas. She prescribed all 3 HRTs for her and said 
"HRT is necessary for normal body function. A woman has the hormones before hysterectomy and should continue them after via HRT. If you use bioidentical hormones, the risk is no greater than a woman before the hysterectomy. Key is bioidentical. Synthetic estrogens are what caused all the breast cancer in 70s/80s."


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