# I would like some female perspective



## Absurdist (Oct 10, 2014)

We have some great posters like @Pluto2 and @TooNice along with a wealth of other good thinking women. Males can join in too but I'm really looking for a female point of view.

This is not for me. I'm married to wonderful woman. I'm the managing partner of a law firm and as such I have found myself being a "counselor" to many men having marital issues. I have no expertise other than the school of hard knocks and ears willing to listen.

Tonight I sat down with an acquaintance/friend. The back story is that my friend was married for 22 years. His ex wife ran off the rails in an "empty nest, MLC, hormone raging" affair for two months. The ex wife was very remorseful from the beginning. Nevertheless, the parties divorced and have been divorced for three years. The affair crushed my friend, his family, her family and more importantly his two college age daughters. The oldest daughter had a very close and intimate relationship with her mother. Her Mom's infidelity simply destroyed her. She has not spoken with her Mom in over a year. My friend got his daughters family counseling and individual counseling for the oldest daughter. It has not really helped. There is an extreme rift with Mom.

The eldest daughter is engaged to be married to a really terrific young man. The ex wife Mom has never met him nor his family by the daughter's choosing.

Here is the hard part. The daughter does not want the Mom at the engagement party, rehearsal dinner, wedding or reception. This is breaking the heart of ex wife Mom. However she says that this is just a consequence of her stupidity and infidelity no matter how much it hurts. My friend is in a conundrum. He is paying for the wedding and believes that his ex should be allowed to attend these events. He thinks that some time in the future there is a chance Mom and daughter could reconcile. Daughter could later regret her decision to exclude her Mom. Yet, he recognizes that this is his daughter's day and he does not have the right to make his daughter invite the ex. The future son in law and his mom think that the ex should be invited. As of now the daughter will have none of it. She was badly damaged by Mom's affair and divorce. This puts my friend between a rock and a hard place. He doesn't want to impose anything on his daughter on this special time but thinks she is making a terrible mistake.

What would the good women of TAM advise here? Should Mom be invited over daughter's objection or should my friend simply accept her choice?

As an aside, I believe that there is a real chance of reconciliation between friend and his ex. She has done immense heavy lifting for three years. My friend loves her dearly. He's still processing trust and respect issues. I think they will get there.

So, I ask again. What is the advice of the women of TAM (and men too if they choose to opine).


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## learner4life (Aug 27, 2016)

Well, my opinion it is the daughter's decision. Even if others have foresight that would lead them to believe she will regret this in the future, about the best they can/should do is talk to her about it. No one has the right to force her to have someone (even her mom) at the wedding if she doesn't want her there. True, she may later regret it, but its still her choice to make.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

This is a difficult situation with no easy solution. The older adults may perhaps not understand the daughter’s point of view. I’ll attempt to explain it because I have experienced a similar level of betrayal on the part of a parent, and at a similar age. Maybe it will help those involved understand the daughter’s behavior?

This young woman regarded her mother as a goddess. She was a living example to aspire to for femininity, motherhood, wife, friend, style and so many other things. Their close relationship fed the daughters sense of her place in the world and, her sense of security, trust and belief. Her mother was the foundation of what it meant to be a female human being. And then she found out that it had all been a lie. Her mother was capable of horrible, hurtful and intentional cruel behavior that resulted in the destruction of the family.

This young woman may be questioning everything she learned and every example set by her mother. She would also be questioning what it means to trust anyone; if a parent can do this what might someone less invested do? She may not even have the words yet to form the questions she has or the answers. This type of betrayal will cause a young adult person to question everything that preceded it.

You may think this is a dramatic description. I guarantee you that it only hints at the turmoil inside that young woman’s psyche. And, her mother is now a trigger for her. IMO, the daughter’s decisions about the wedding should be accepted. The older adults should not question or persuade or guilt her.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

It's a difficult position for your friend to be in, for sure. 

My opinion is, it is the daughter's wedding, therefore it should be completely her decision as to whom is invited.

She can be appealed to, but ultimately the decision is hers. I'd even strongly advise against appealing to her at all, as this will likely make her question whether her decision will be respected and she will be appreciated for the autonomous adult she is, or whether she will still be treated as a child being told what she is doing is wrong and/or something she may regret. Right now, it is for HER to decide this and she has the right to decide without pressure from anyone, especially the one parent she has (in my book, wisely) chosen to defend and cherish. 

She has made her wishes clear. Respect them. She is embarking on a very adult journey in her life and she wishes to do this without her mother. Allow her to. 

If later in life she wishes to reconnect with her mother, she will and she will do it on her terms and no one else's.

This is a very good example of the depths to which infidelity can touch a family as a unit and the members as individuals.


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## Capricious (Sep 21, 2016)

I too think that this is the daughter's decision. After all the daughter is a young adult very capable of making her own decisions. If the cheating ex wife thought her actions would not affect her children, I'm sure she is very clear on the consequences now.


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## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

Yes, this is the daughters decision. There is a chance down the road that they reconcile (daughter and mom) but it's too soon for that. She probably will reconcile at some point but their relationship will never be what it once was. It's a sad situation and this certainly doesn't happen in every case.

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## Lostme (Nov 14, 2014)

I too feel it's the daughter's choice to have her mom there or not. I think everyone should stand by her and her decision, she was hurt by someone she looked up to not everyone deserves forgiveness. 

She needs to not be pushed into something she does not want to do, they better be careful she could call off the wedding or 2 run off and elope just to stop hearing about it from people.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

This hits home, not because either of by fabulous DDs are engaged, but because of the estrangement between the kids and their father. 

When the ex left he decimated our older DD, who was about 15 at the time, blaming her for the D (not his serial infidelity and abuse), he screamed she wanted him to kill himself, he called her every name in the book. Since then he has been non-remorseful and has never apologized for the things he said to her. He does not see the kids and it is his choice. He ignored her birthdays, and her HS graduation and never spoke to her about getting into a great college. I don't believe they have had any communication in over a year. Our younger DD spoke to him on the phone in May-but no contact since.

Personally, I do not believe he will ever be invited to any family celebration in the future because he has shown them through his actions that he does not consider them to be part of his family. The older DD referred to him as a sperm donor father. She's been to therapy and is not angry, but accepting of the fact that these are the choices he has made. 

There are times when I think about how their lives will play out, and the choices they will make as they grow and develop. In a perfect world, their father would be there supporting them. In a perfect world, their father would walk them down the aisle should they ever choose to marry. Sadly, they were not touched with the luxury of living in a perfect world. 

So let your friends daughter have the wedding day she wants. There is an assumption in the invitation that everyone will be thrilled at the Mom's presence. It could well ruin a day that should be full of love. Any reconciliation should be separate from the wedding.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

I personally just went through something similar.

My son (age 30) just got married 6 weeks ago.

My divorce after 33 years was final 3 weeks ago.

My son was devastated over my ex's numerous infidelities.

He told his father that the OW was NOT invited to ANY wedding parties.

In January, I went to the engagement party alone. Ex was NOT invited.

Ex was invited to and did attend the wedding. OW was NOT there.

There was, is and probably will always be a strain between my/our son.

My son never thought of NOT inviting his father to his wedding and if he had, I would have insisted that his father be invited.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

I don't need to be a woman to be able to see that it is completely the daughter's choice who to invite to her own wedding. If she doesn't want her own mother there, that's HER choice.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

As a man and father I think the daughter should make the decision and be left alone about it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree with the others, it's the daughter's wedding and thus her choice.

If she regrets it later, then she can deal with that at the time.


If you friend is thinking of reconciling with his ex, he needs to have a long talk with his daughter about forgiveness and that sometimes even good people do things that hurt others. That there has to be a way that people can gain redemption or we all might as well just give up because no one is perfect.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Daughter's choice. If it will have a negative impact on the wedding day, and potentially ruin it for her and her husband, then she shouldn't come. It is sad to read this, sounds like her mother is truly remorseful, but what she lost, was her daughter's respect. Her daughter probably still loves her as her mom, but respect is earned. So is trust. I can see that she is probably thinking that seeing her mom there on her special day will cause all those negative feelings to surface, and she doesn't want that. 

Why is the father considering reconciling? What is meant by 'heavy lifting?' Just wondering.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I'll throw a slightly different point of view out there.

While I do think it's the daughters decision, I think her father should sit her down and speak to her. He should tell her that while ultimately the decision is hers it's a mistake to exclude her mother...Unless of course the mother is toxic and will act up, which there's no indication will happen.

People make mistakes.....they make bad decisions. Mom has paid through the loss of her marriage and estrangement of her kids. Daughter may make some mistakes as she gets older.....does she want her kids cutting her out?

Now if mom was being nasty or abusive then by all means exclude her. But to punish her further? I see nothing to be gained by it. 

And this decision can't be undone.

I think some people here feel like this is a cheater getting their just dessert. But what if you had a guy in a sexless marriage who made the decision to cheat and was then excluded from all of his kids life events? Particularly one who immediately regretted it?

The wife was remorseful.

There are some wayward posters here that have worked hard to make amends.....if the marriage fails should they be excluded from all life events?

We don't know what went down in the marriage and frankly neither does the daughter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Absurdist (Oct 10, 2014)

Thanks to all who have responded especially @Red Sonja. She nailed it. Just to clear up some misconceptions, my friend is a fine man. He will abide by his daughter's decision. But he is a good Dad. If he thinks his daughter is making a mistake he has to voice his opinion as a father.

Tonight my wife and I are taking the daughter to dinner. We will offer no advice. We will listen. If asked we will say what we think.

The only thing we care about is the daughter's healing.

If anyone cares, I will post again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

I would be horrified and deeply resentful if my wishes as the bride were ignored.

I think this is far different than a typical bridezilla moment. 

A wedding is supposed to be a happy and celebratory event. Her mom should not be invited if the bride does not want her there! I don't care if they may reconcile in the future. That is not the Here and now. If they do reconcile, the bride can deal with her regret at that time. Just between her and her mother.

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## Pam (Oct 7, 2010)

There is already enough pressure on this young woman; she is planning her wedding without the one person she always thought would be right there beside her every step of the way. She feels completely betrayed that that one person, and she can't stand the thought of having to see her mother at the wedding, when they didn't plan it together; there was no dress shopping with tears shed together when "that one dress" was finally tried own. She has lost so much that she counted on from childhood. Her bitterness and sense of betrayal runs deep. 

Don't put more pressure on her. Let her come to terms on her own time, if she does.


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## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

Excellent perspectives here. 
@Absurdist, you did not mention the ages of the girls, but my guess is that the elder daughter is at that age where she knows all and no one can dissuade her she is wrong. The early 20's, while liberating, are also an age when we tend to be extremely self-absorbed. She is likely not able to see the big picture, including her mother's remorse, and the long-term ramifications of not inviting her. 

If he is willing to, and able to do it without upsetting her, a gentle conversation between your friend and his oldest is not a bad idea. I agree that he could reinforce that it's her decision, but that he just wants to help her to understand some other perspectives. Especially if he thinks there is a chance of reconciliation... if that happens, that will eternally be a cause of pain for all of them. 

What a difficult situation to be in.


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## BrokenLady (Jan 19, 2015)

One thing to consider.... is the daughter very protective of her father? Could that be influencing her descisions?

Growing-up my best friend discovered her mothers infidelity. It was truly awful for her. During the divorce process she found documents that revealed, for the first time, that her Dad was not her biological father. The truth had been kept from her all of her life. Despite this she took her 'Dads' side, refused to move with her mother & sister after the divorce. Her reasoning was clear, her Dad needed her more!! 

I can understand how her parents perceived her behavior as being a rejection of her mother because of her adultery but the truth was she just wanted to protect her Dad from anymore hurt.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Red Sonja said:


> This is a difficult situation with no easy solution. The older adults may perhaps not understand the daughter’s point of view. I’ll attempt to explain it because I have experienced a similar level of betrayal on the part of a parent, and at a similar age. Maybe it will help those involved understand the daughter’s behavior?
> 
> This young woman regarded her mother as a goddess. She was a living example to aspire to for femininity, motherhood, wife, friend, style and so many other things. Their close relationship fed the daughters sense of her place in the world and, her sense of security, trust and belief. Her mother was the foundation of what it meant to be a female human being. And then she found out that it had all been a lie. Her mother was capable of horrible, hurtful and intentional cruel behavior that resulted in the destruction of the family.
> 
> ...


Yes, all THIS. Who wants a reminder at their own wedding about how horribly one person can ruin a marriage?


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

I agree that the father should sit her down and talk sense to her. My father had an affair that led to my parents divorce. My mother was the one who put her anger aside and always encourage my siblings and I to maintain a relationship with him, even when we were angry. 

Also, it may be her wedding but her father is also the one paying for it and therefore gets to decide who gets invited. If she can't handle that, she's probably too immature to get married.


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## CuriousBlue (Oct 7, 2016)

It's the bride's wedding. It's the bride's decision.

It's also the groom's wedding. They can come to a decision together. He could leave it up to her. He could also want to discuss, have input. The two people getting married need to work it out together. And that includes one giving the other complete say-so. It won't be the last time they need to work something out together, and this could be good practice for the coming years.


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## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

My stepdaughter got married yesterday. It was an extremely small event, but the parents were all there...except for me. We no longer speak, but I don't even know why. She has cut me out of her life without telling me a reason. I never cheated on her dad, I always tried to be the best parent I could, I always simply loved her. 

I doubt anyone has discussed this with her-I can't really see either of her parents trying to talk her into talking to me. My ex in particular-it makes his life easier to have me out of hers.

Even if we reconcile one day, which I just don't see happening, I will forever have a hole in my heart from having missed this time. 

Just offering some other perspective.


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## Absurdist (Oct 10, 2014)

_Posted via Mobile Device_
@TooNice I'm sorry your step daughter is treating you this way. Especially since you raised her.

The Mom and Daughter which are the subject of this thread met Thursday. The first meeting in a long time. No anger but heartbreaking sadness, tears and sobbing. A great sense of loss between the two. Amid the sobs the daughter and Mom agreed:

Mom will not be on the wedding invitations, nor will she attend the engagement party, showers or rehearsal dinner.

She will be permitted to attend the wedding but she will not be part of the wedding party i.e. she will not be escorted nor will she sit on the first row with Dad. She will be permitted to attend the reception but promises her daughter she will stay in the background. Mom will be introduced to her new son-in-law next week.

The daughter's heart is softening a bit. The mom feels blessed that her daughter extended this little measure of grace to her. The Mom understands that she deserves none of it but is just thankful to see her baby get married.

Sigh

Life shouldn't be this way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Sounds like the daughter has made room for her mother, but is keeping her mom from overshadowing the happy day. If her mom behaves, it can be a good day for both.


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## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

I'm very glad to hear that they met and talked. While I know it will still be difficult for both of them, they will never have to deal with the "what-ifs". 

You're right, it should not be so hard. But it makes my heart happier to know that this one may end with less hurt than it surely would have the other way.


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