# Things are coming to a head



## darkfilly (Mar 7, 2014)

I have posted in here before, about libido issues with my husband being hardly ever in the mood and myself in the mood most of the time. It seems that this was just a symptom of greater issues between us. We have now been married for 3 years, together for a total of 6. For every one of those years, the same issues have come up for healing, but never gets healed. The lack of satisfying sex, the lack of satisfying emotional intimacy, the frustrating outcomes every time I try to talk it over with him. I realize that my husband is damaged goods, and that no amount of love, understanding and support will ever change him. I don't think it is fair to either of us to expect me to have a lower libido or to stop wanting more than he can give. Nor is it fair for me to expect him to suddenly transform into the man I want and need, I think the time is approaching when something has to be done. 

We have been to counseling, we have read marriage advice books, we have talked, stormed out of rooms, come back crying, but every time it just turns into still another circular argument. I am wasting some of the best years of my life with a person who still doesn't have a clue about what it means to be a husband. He makes a great roommate, a good friend to watch movies or prepare meals with, but he lacks what it takes to make me feel that we are best friends as well as lovers. His response whenever I am feeling down about us, is to ask if he did something wrong. He is good at feeling guilt and is terrified of losing me, but does absolutely nothing to keep me. Even worse, he doesn't really know me. He accuses me of making "cracks" when I try to joke about a sensitive issue. He thinks the only emotions I am capable of expressing are anger or disgust. He doesn't get it about frustration, despair, or sorrow. 

We both married late in life; I am in my fifties and he is sixty. He was never married before, but I was. One counselor told me that the odds of an older man who was never married before, changing in a positive way now was impossible. He is well set in his ways. He likes to get up in the morning and sign onto Facebook where he spends a great deal of time reading comments. We have fought about that, too because he has ex girlfriends on his friends list. But he refuses to remove them. He goes to work and when he gets home, guess what his priority is? Facebook or just general computer time. I have heard other women complain about their husbands sitting on their asses in front of the television. Well, mine sits on his ass in front of the computer playing games and surfing the net. 

Sorry this is so long, but I will wrap it up with asking for feedback or input about this. I am retired and my sole income is my social security. He is intelligent enough to be in MENSA, but the only work he has done for the past ten years is pizza delivery. At first he was always talking about getting back into lab tech work which he used to do, but still here he is, doing the same thing. We can barely make ends meet. So on top of everything else, there are financial problems too. Sigh. If I were to think about leaving him, I would have to find someplace else to live because we share an apartment now, and I couldn't afford one on my income. There is so much to consider before making a decision. Has anyone else been through something similar, and how did you handle it? Thanks for reading!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I can relate to your situation. I was married to a guy was/is similar.

You are a person for whom sex is important; it's important to him. The lack of all intimacy, the time he spends on the computer ...The two of your are not compatible on that level. 

I actually do not think that he is afraid of losing you. If he were, he'd do the work to change. He does not think that you will actually leave him.

It would make a lot of sense to me for you to divorce him.


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## Nix (Jan 23, 2012)

Just wanted to share that I am in a very similar situation. My W is low desire and BPD/NPD. What a combination!

I almost walked out today, after a scheduled "sex date" turned into a nightmare. In the midst of it I lost my temper like I never havebefore...... I told her I wanted to D, but I am waffling. I know what I have to do, but I don't want to do it, not ready to do it.....take your pick, doesn't matter, end result is the same.

My W is such a narcissist that when I was sitting here sobbing a few minutes ago, her sole concern was that I cry more quietly so that the neighbors didn't think she was beating me up. Then, when I confronted her on this, I was accused of being "terrible" to her.

Lord give us strength. I think we both need to D.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Before you make a final decision, I think it would be wise to get some confirmation of what you feel his feelings are.

So to me it would make sense for you to sit him down and be really straight forward with him. Literally asking him to sit down to talk, and then explaining to him (again) your frustrations, and how you feel that there hasn't really been any progress on the issue for several years now. You feel that you have tried everything you can think of (I assume) to help resolve this problem, and you aren't sure what else can be done. That you feel like he either doesn't care about the problem, doesn't believe it is really a problem, or doesn't realize how incredibly important the problem is to you and the marriage. Then explain that this is absolutely a "marriage ending" problem if it can't be resolved, or if he's unwilling to try to resolve it. Be clear that this means you now want a divorce if he indeed is not willing to actually resolve the problem. (Trying to resolve it is fine, as long as steady genuine progress is being made) If he isn't willing to resolve the issue, then you can let him know that you understand, and it isn't necessarily fair to expect him to completely change his desires/needs so drastically, and you wouldn't even want him to try if doing so is going to make him miserable. Then it might be a good idea to finish directly repeating your question, is he willing to do what it takes to resolve the problem, and how does he intend to make that happen, or not?

I think if you knew the answer to that one way or the other, your answer would be far easier to make.


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## darkfilly (Mar 7, 2014)

cdbaker said:


> Before you make a final decision, I think it would be wise to get some confirmation of what you feel his feelings are.
> 
> So to me it would make sense for you to sit him down and be really straight forward with him. Literally asking him to sit down to talk, and then explaining to him (again) your frustrations, and how you feel that there hasn't really been any progress on the issue for several years now. You feel that you have tried everything you can think of (I assume) to help resolve this problem, and you aren't sure what else can be done. That you feel like he either doesn't care about the problem, doesn't believe it is really a problem, or doesn't realize how incredibly important the problem is to you and the marriage. Then explain that this is absolutely a "marriage ending" problem if it can't be resolved, or if he's unwilling to try to resolve it. Be clear that this means you now want a divorce if he indeed is not willing to actually resolve the problem. (Trying to resolve it is fine, as long as steady genuine progress is being made) If he isn't willing to resolve the issue, then you can let him know that you understand, and it isn't necessarily fair to expect him to completely change his desires/needs so drastically, and you wouldn't even want him to try if doing so is going to make him miserable. Then it might be a good idea to finish directly repeating your question, is he willing to do what it takes to resolve the problem, and how does he intend to make that happen, or not?
> 
> I think if you knew the answer to that one way or the other, your answer would be far easier to make.


Here is what I have done so far; talked to him, told him how I feel, asked if *we* could come up with some kind of compromise or solution. No matter how calmly I talk, no matter how many ideas I present, he gets defensive and flatly declares that he can't help it, that he is getting old, that he has had a low libido for quite some time. I have bought books for us to read together, which he will read but then after a few efforts, slowly slip back into his sedentary ways. 

Last night we had still another draining discussion in which I pointed out that if he weren't sitting so much and using the mouse, he would probably be more interested in sex. Statistics show that a sedentary lifestyle kills libido. I asked him if he thinks it is fair to make no effort at all to explore ideas that might lead to increasing desire. He swears that he loves me, but thinks that our marriage will somehow limp along indefinitely with me in this holding pattern of waiting until he feels like having sex. 

I could never cheat because I have a set of values that are not to be broken. I did mention that the thought of an open marriage crossed my mind several times but I am not sure I could go through with it.I have read online about a woman who has a husband and a boyfriend. She sees the boyfriend once in a while for a date and sex, but she and her husband are good friends with this guy and and she is very happy with the arrangement. I wish I could do something similar!


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

darkfilly said:


> Here is what I have done so far; talked to him, told him how I feel, asked if *we* could come up with some kind of compromise or solution. No matter how calmly I talk, no matter how many ideas I present, he gets defensive and flatly declares that he can't help it, that he is getting old, that he has had a low libido for quite some time. I have bought books for us to read together, which he will read but then after a few efforts, slowly slip back into his sedentary ways.
> 
> Last night we had still another draining discussion in which I pointed out that if he weren't sitting so much and using the mouse, he would probably be more interested in sex. Statistics show that a sedentary lifestyle kills libido. I asked him if he thinks it is fair to make no effort at all to explore ideas that might lead to increasing desire. He swears that he loves me, but thinks that our marriage will somehow limp along indefinitely with me in this holding pattern of waiting until he feels like having sex.
> 
> I could never cheat because I have a set of values that are not to be broken. I did mention that the thought of an open marriage crossed my mind several times but I am not sure I could go through with it.I have read online about a woman who has a husband and a boyfriend. She sees the boyfriend once in a while for a date and sex, but she and her husband are good friends with this guy and and she is very happy with the arrangement. I wish I could do something similar!


Well... as far as an open marriage, I would tread very lightly, make sure to engage in a TON of communication, and it still would be a good idea to meet with a relationship counselor of some kind to get their expertise on that idea. I've read a lot about the topic and it seems to works for some people, I think it destroys marriages just as frequently if not more so. Often times I think switching to an open marriage when there are problems within the marriage just extends a dying marriage for a little while longer.

So how did your husband respond to the discussion yesterday? Again I think you just have to get a final answer from him. Assuming this is a deal breaker for you, is he willing to do what it takes to increase the sexual frequency in the relationship, or not. No excuses, just yes or no. If YES, then the follow-up question is how? How will he go about doing that? If NO, then I suppose that is when you can discuss divorce... or maybe open marriage. Just as I said, tread carefully.


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## darkfilly (Mar 7, 2014)

Nix said:


> Just wanted to share that I am in a very similar situation. My W is low desire and BPD/NPD. What a combination!
> 
> I almost walked out today, after a scheduled "sex date" turned into a nightmare. In the midst of it I lost my temper like I never havebefore...... I told her I wanted to D, but I am waffling. I know what I have to do, but I don't want to do it, not ready to do it.....take your pick, doesn't matter, end result is the same.
> 
> ...


I think that was awful of your wife to respond to your grief that way. My husband once called me a "drama queen" when I was genuinely upset about a troubling symptom with my heart. I was so glad when he tried to downplay it to the nurse in the ER, and she snapped at him and said, "Well, she's terrified!" So I am no stranger to lack of emotional support. I hope you find the best answers for your situation!


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## darkfilly (Mar 7, 2014)

cdbaker said:


> Well... as far as an open marriage, I would tread very lightly, make sure to engage in a TON of communication, and it still would be a good idea to meet with a relationship counselor of some kind to get their expertise on that idea. I've read a lot about the topic and it seems to works for some people, I think it destroys marriages just as frequently if not more so. Often times I think switching to an open marriage when there are problems within the marriage just extends a dying marriage for a little while longer.
> 
> So how did your husband respond to the discussion yesterday? Again I think you just have to get a final answer from him. Assuming this is a deal breaker for you, is he willing to do what it takes to increase the sexual frequency in the relationship, or not. No excuses, just yes or no. If YES, then the follow-up question is how? How will he go about doing that? If NO, then I suppose that is when you can discuss divorce... or maybe open marriage. Just as I said, tread carefully.


Well, his response to our discussion...Specifically when I asked what he was willing to do about the sexual issues, was to say that he didn't know what to do. Then he said he was going to order some kind of supplement online. He seems to be genuinely unaware of what to do about us. He uses Viagra for the times when we actually do have sex. TBH I think a lot of this is psychological. I have read that the more arguments there are about sex, the less sex is going to happen because the man is feeling either pressured, or just plain lousy for not being able to perform so that kills libido even more.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

A man with no libido often also has no ambition, because both are powered by testosterone.
Now if he were interested in fixing the problem, perhaps something could be done. 
But the really bad thing about lack of testosterone is that men who have this problem generally don't feel like doing *anything* productive, including fixing the problem.

Since your husband is in that frame of mind, I can't imagine that staying married to him is going to work out well for you.
You should be able to be happy, just not with him.

But the obvious question that hasn't been asked is "Why did you marry him in the first place?" That's very important to know if you are going to avoiding similar issues with future partners.


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## darkfilly (Mar 7, 2014)

technovelist said:


> A man with no libido often also has no ambition, because both are powered by testosterone.
> Now if he were interested in fixing the problem, perhaps something could be done.
> But the really bad thing about lack of testosterone is that men who have this problem generally don't feel like doing *anything* productive, including fixing the problem.
> 
> ...


The reason I married him in the first place was because we were powerfully attracted to each other from day one. From what I knew about him, I thought that he was very intelligent and I mistakenly thought that this meant he would be motivated to do big things in the workplace. We were otherwise very compatible; laughing at the same things, liked the same kinds of foods and movies, liked video games, and when I first met him, he took a lot of walks. I saw us doing these things together all the time. I didn't know about the excessive computer use because we didn't live together right away. I was a little worried about the low sex drive, but he wasn't up front about it, blaming it on being tired or something he ate disagreeing with him. I saw the red flags, but didn't know what they meant.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

darkfilly said:


> The reason I married him in the first place was because we were powerfully attracted to each other from day one. From what I knew about him, I thought that he was very intelligent and I mistakenly thought that this meant he would be motivated to do big things in the workplace. We were otherwise very compatible; laughing at the same things, liked the same kinds of foods and movies, liked video games, and when I first met him, he took a lot of walks. I saw us doing these things together all the time. I didn't know about the excessive computer use because we didn't live together right away. I was a little worried about the low sex drive, but he wasn't up front about it, blaming it on being tired or something he ate disagreeing with him. I saw the red flags, but didn't know what they meant.


I see; that is understandable if very sad.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of intelligent men (and women, of course, but this is about a man) who don't do much with their gift. My brothers are examples of that, so I'm quite familiar with the problem. It's not always low testosterone that is the issue, but that is pretty highly correlated with low ambition in men.

I'm sorry to hear of your plight, but I don't see any reason to expect him to change. I think you will have to divorce.

The good news is that now you know about the red flags, or at least some of the major ones. And you have TAM to go to if you want an outside opinion on any future relationships!


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

darkfilly said:


> Well, his response to our discussion...Specifically when I asked what he was willing to do about the sexual issues, was to say that he didn't know what to do. Then he said he was going to order some kind of supplement online. He seems to be genuinely unaware of what to do about us. He uses Viagra for the times when we actually do have sex. TBH I think a lot of this is psychological. I have read that the more arguments there are about sex, the less sex is going to happen because the man is feeling either pressured, or just plain lousy for not being able to perform so that kills libido even more.


Yep, I think you are absolutely right, but honestly I think it's true for both men and women anytime there is conflict regarding the frequency/quality of sexual intimacy. The one with the lower libido feels pressured, guilt for not satisfying their partner, fear/stress that it might lead their partner to leave them or cheat, etc. For men, I think there is the added stress of feeling unable to perform (ED), feeling like less of a man for not fitting the typical alpha-male "I WANT SEX ALL THE TIME" stereotype, the stress/worrying that their wife will think he doesn't love her or find her attractive, etc. This is why I think repeatedly bringing up the issue without reaching a definitive plan/strategy, or getting help via a qualified therapist, can do way more damage than good.

Sounds like he could be pretty depressed about the whole thing. (Again, he or both of you should be seeing a therapist!) He could use an ego boost for sure as well, haha. The therapist could decide if anti-depressants make sense, if testosterone might be an issue, or if it's something else entirely. Supplements online? Eh, it might help, but it's unlikely to make a big difference. I'd say help him figure out the other issues discussed above first, but eventually he needs to decide to commit or not. I don't say that as if he is the "bad guy" here, because it probably isn't his fault that he has a low sex drive, and it's not your fault either. If the sexual frequency being too low for you is a deal breaker (and you are entitled to feel that way) and he isn't willing or can't do anything about it, then it's just an unfortunate situation that is no one's fault and you both just have to make decisions about your futures together, or apart. Either way though, you'll want to get some of these answers.

I'm also curious, you said that you brought up the open marriage possibility? Or am I mis-remembering that? If so, how did he respond to that suggestion/hint?


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## darkfilly (Mar 7, 2014)

cdbaker said:


> Yep, I think you are absolutely right, but honestly I think it's true for both men and women anytime there is conflict regarding the frequency/quality of sexual intimacy. The one with the lower libido feels pressured, guilt for not satisfying their partner, fear/stress that it might lead their partner to leave them or cheat, etc. For men, I think there is the added stress of feeling unable to perform (ED), feeling like less of a man for not fitting the typical alpha-male "I WANT SEX ALL THE TIME" stereotype, the stress/worrying that their wife will think he doesn't love her or find her attractive, etc. This is why I think repeatedly bringing up the issue without reaching a definitive plan/strategy, or getting help via a qualified therapist, can do way more damage than good.


We have gone to a couple of therapists on and off, but I personally don't think they were qualified. One of them seemed to be backing him up when I mentioned the excessive computer use, and when I described the times that I found that he had concealed things from me! So we tried two more therapists but nothing seemed to be changing. I am not sure if it is worth while to try still another. 



cdbaker said:


> Sounds like he could be pretty depressed about the whole thing. (Again, he or both of you should be seeing a therapist!) He could use an ego boost for sure as well, haha. The therapist could decide if anti-depressants make sense, if testosterone might be an issue, or if it's something else entirely. Supplements online? Eh, it might help, but it's unlikely to make a big difference. I'd say help him figure out the other issues discussed above first, but eventually he needs to decide to commit or not. I don't say that as if he is the "bad guy" here, because it probably isn't his fault that he has a low sex drive, and it's not your fault either. If the sexual frequency being too low for you is a deal breaker (and you are entitled to feel that way) and he isn't willing or can't do anything about it, then it's just an unfortunate situation that is no one's fault and you both just have to make decisions about your futures together, or apart. Either way though, you'll want to get some of these answers.
> 
> I'm also curious, you said that you brought up the open marriage possibility? Or am I mis-remembering that? If so, how did he respond to that suggestion/hint?


Well, he adamantly refused to even think about it. I just brought it up to show him how serious this issue was! I asked if he thought it was fair to keep telling me he didn't know what to do about this situation, and yet refuse to even seek answers? As I said before, it isn't just the sex. It is the other things that he does; I honestly think that he would be happier with nobody nagging him for sex or attention and he could live the way he did when we first met.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I did see that he uses Viagra, but how about testosterone? Has he been checked for that? If it's low, it can account for lack of interest and libido, and adversely affect performance even with Viagra. A hormone lack can seem to be a psychological issue. However, if that isn't the problem, or is but doesn't fix anything, then I'd say move on. But I would suggest checking this if you are willing.


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## darkfilly (Mar 7, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> I did see that he uses Viagra, but how about testosterone? Has he been checked for that? If it's low, it can account for lack of interest and libido, and adversely affect performance even with Viagra. A hormone lack can seem to be a psychological issue. However, if that isn't the problem, or is but doesn't fix anything, then I'd say move on. But I would suggest checking this if you are willing.


It seems that he had his levels checked about two years ago, and at that time he said the doctor reported that the levels were normal. The weird thing about his libido, is he suddenly seems to be horny the day after we have fought about this issue. I usually comply, but now I wonder if I am just contributing to this self defeating pattern? Should I give in just because he decides that he's ready, and then he can leave me hanging for another two or three weeks or after our next fight?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Normal levels for a 60 yo man can be insufficient to support libido. See a hormone specialist - he needs a T level around 700. Fighting with you bumps up T levels, which may explain the timing.


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## darkfilly (Mar 7, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Normal levels for a 60 yo man can be insufficient to support libido. See a hormone specialist - he needs a T level around 700. Fighting with you bumps up T levels, which may explain the timing.


That is interesting! I never knew that fighting bumped up T levels, but it makes sense. 

I have really appreciated all the feedback!


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