# This stuff drives me crazy.



## Happyquest (Apr 21, 2009)

The morning before work I get up make coffee and she comes down and cuddles with me on the couch before the day gets going. I am enjoying her curled up next to me. 27 years of marriage and I love feeling her body. She looks at me and says you know that our daughter has some place to be tonight and we will have the house along for a while what would I like to do? I am thinking 25 things but ask her what she has in mind. She tells me you can not answer a question with another question. I tell her I just did. We laugh and talk about getting in the hot tub nakkid or giving each other a nice massage. So all day this runs in the back of my head about what might happen. 

I come home from work there is the normal chores, dinner, clean up. Daughter leaves and the wife head for the computer and starts doing emails and bills. I am cool so I do some other things around the house. I come back about an hour later and she is asleep on the couch. I know she is tired so I let her sleep. figured oh well another night.

Daughter comes home and goes to bed I head to the hot tub before bed and wife wakes up to join me. I am like cool. After about 20 min we are talking and hanging out she begins to play. I am like this is great and a few min go by and she stops. there is kissing and cuddling but the sexual activity stops. 20 more min and its time to get out. Head to bed and nothing more happens but some holding.

What the heck. if your going to start to play continue dont stop or just dont start. If you say in the morning you want to have fun tonight follow through.

Is this too much to ask?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

My STBXW did that all the time. I could have wallpapered a house with promissory notes that never got cashed. 

It's one of the reasons she's "STBX". 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Be careful what you wish for. 
So you are saying that you only want your wife to flirt when she is absolutely sure that she will follow through?

Also don't you think you where being way too passive? 
She opens the door for you and you go do chores while she pays the bills? How much invitation do you need? 

Most women really like their guy to be hot for them and not passive.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

We have learned to speak up and negotiate when we want or need a change from intentions or expectations. Things can change between morning and night, of course, so the extended romp may need to transform into a quickie or a blow job, for example. Occasionally it will go the other way, as well. Sometimes, it's just friendly fondling, and doesn't need to go to a finish - but since we have sex almost every day, it's not a big deal if one of us can't carry through occasionally.


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## notperfectanymore (Mar 1, 2012)

usmarriedguy said:


> Be careful what you wish for.
> So you are saying that you only want your wife to flirt when she is absolutely sure that she will follow through?
> 
> Also don't you think you where being way too passive?
> ...


Why didn't you just "take" her when she sat down to pay the bills?


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Yes.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

So why did you not initiate when you got to bed?



Happyquest said:


> What the heck. if your going to start to play continue dont stop or just dont start. If you say in the morning you want to have fun tonight follow through.
> 
> Is this too much to ask?


If this is a pattern, shut it down. Don't let her make those suggestions in the morning and be very clear why you are not engaging. If you do and she acts this way, make clear that you are disappointed and did not think she was a tease. Of course she is not required to have sex with you. By the same token you are not required to make her feel sexy and allow her to lead you on in the morning then drop that night.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I guess I'm confused. You talked about getting into the hot tub or a massage in the morning, and then that night you actually did get into the hot tub and, as you said, she started to "play." Then you say there was kissing and cuddling, but that's it. 

How is everything all her fault here?


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

Mine used to plan encounters. Tomorrow afternoon maybe we can.......in the meantime I have to run errands and blah blah. Well 90% of the time something happens and nothing happens if you get my drift. I figured out that was just a ploy, I knew by then she was indifferent to sex. Not saying that's the case for you TAG.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

okeydokie said:


> Mine used to plan encounters. Tomorrow afternoon maybe we can.......in the meantime I have to run errands and blah blah. Well 90% of the time something happens and nothing happens if you get my drift. I figured out that was just a ploy, I knew by then she was indifferent to sex. Not saying that's the case for you TAG.


For me it was not. Unfortunately, it was mostly that she was indifferent to sex *with me*. Partly her upbringing, but a big part of it was my behavior and our marriage. Cleaning up my side of the street helped a ton. Once I did that, I could be more forceful in getting us to work on our relationship and calling her out on this stuff.

I don't even know if it was intentional. I think that she was fine with sex in theory. Since we could not do anything at the time, she was happy to make promises that would make me happy. But as it got closer to reality, she was looking for excuses to avoid it. Ignoring rain checks was actually the biggest problem.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Happyquest said:


> Daughter comes home and goes to bed I head to the hot tub before bed and wife wakes up to join me. I am like cool. After about 20 min we are talking and hanging out she begins to play. I am like this is great and a few min go by and she stops. there is kissing and cuddling but the sexual activity stops. 20 more min and its time to get out. Head to bed and nothing more happens but some holding.


Rereading this, I am curious about some things (I may have assumed too much). Did you continue to try to play after she stopped? How about when you got to bed? If so, what was her response?


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## Cyclist (Aug 22, 2012)

I have had this kind of situation before. You talk in the morning, you flirt some during the day, then the time comes and she kind of shuts down.

After being aggressive a few times with it I also have let it go. Its kind of like you want her to be as excited about it as you are. You want her to pursue you a little bit...

"She just left.....LETS jump in that hot tub"...

Instead she pays bills. 

You want her to want you once in a while the way you want her.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

My experience is that less than 50% percent of women are like that. 

They may initiate but it is usually only a hint (like in this case) and if they are turned down even rarely they will take it as a sign to not initiate anymore.

Well just to be clear I was not trying to suggest that just because you help her follow through does not guarantee that she will in fact be interested -it could be that things changed between morning and evening. 

And maybe she really is playing some Jedi mind game.

But in my experience you should take that as a cue to do your part and be the leader and then do not let it deter you the next time if she should happen to not be interested. 

-unless this is a pattern. If she does this all the time than you should put a stop to it. 

When some women hint they view it as being aggressive and they want their guy to respond in kind.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

usmarriedguy said:


> My experience is that less than 50% percent of women are like that.
> 
> They may initiate but it is usually only a hint (like in this case) and if they are turned down even rarely they will take it as a sign to not initiate anymore.


I would take it one step farther and say that women tend to initiate in a different way then men do. As a man, I perceive it as much more subtle and more of a hint. As women tend to be more receptive of body language and the like, I suspect they also communicate more that way. My wife almost never grabs me and says lets go have sex. She will touch me in certain ways as an invitation.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Ummm she said you can't answer a question with a question...

That means she WANTS you to take the lead!!!!!!

She goes to pay bills...and you....crickets....

She joins you in the tub and plays, then you two go to bed and you.....crickets.....

Should have gone like this: 
She goes to email and pay bills, but I went in and told her she had 15 to get her naked ass in the hot tub! But 20 minutes went by so I went back in to her and took her hand, stood her up, and undressed her. I wrapped a towel around her to walk to the hot tub. We got in, and I told her to bend over for a spanking because she was not following through as we had agreed.

She gets a light spanking then we play for a bit in the hot tub. Daughter comes home, we talk and wait for daughter to head to bed and go back to the hot tub. We play some more and then I take her to the bedroom where I drill her hard.

She gave you a clear (for women who don't know how to tell their husbands what they want) signal she wanted YOU to seduce her and make love to her. If she wanted to seduce you she would have!!!

So she waits, and you do nothing, she waits some more, and...she has to get things rolling cause you're not moving. She gets to bed expecting you to follow through and.....

I think you need the spanking!


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## Cyclist (Aug 22, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Ummm she said you can't answer a question with a question...
> 
> That means she WANTS you to take the lead!!!!!!
> 
> ...


Anon has it all figured out!!

Truth is she is probably right.

Most woman seem to speak in code when they want us to make love to them. They just do not do it the same way we do. (it kinda sucks truthfully)

"but I touched your shoulder" That was code for I want you.

ONE TIME could ya just come out and say it??? "I want you to F me in the hot tub...."

but instead we get code. Ya gotta be in the CIA to understand the code.


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## Happyquest (Apr 21, 2009)

Remember before you were married when you didnt have to hint. She would grab you and be kissing you. Unzip and whisper in your ear all the crazy stuff that she has been thinking? I remember her buying our first VCR and we would send the day watching porn tapes and talking about the crazy stuff now porn is off limits. trackers installed on the computer. 

I didnt have do anything more than smile and it was go time. Give me 20 min alone with her and I can pretty much tell you what we were doing and I didnt have to do much to get her in the mood.

Now days its like I am begging. Coffee made in the mornings to help her wake up before the kids start to stir. Massage table and candles and every scented oil you can think of. I spent two weeks digging 3 foot footers under a 4 foot deck to install a hot tub so we could enjoy some alone time under the stars together.
Candle lit bubble baths and weekend away at bed and breakfast. I have read more couples books that most woman. 

What does a man have to do to keep her interested? 

Why was she so sexual before marriage and kids? I think woman fish and once your in the bucket no need to chance loosing the lure. They put it back in the tackle box and its never used again. LOL unless the fish in the bucket dies. :rofl:


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I think you need the spanking!


:iagree:

She is dropping all kinds of hints that she wants you to be more aggressive.

I am sure that you have a pair.... now start using them. Be the man - take the advice given here. She wants you to be the man. She wants you to be the leader. Right now all you are doing is following...

You might be turning her off with passiveness.


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## Happyquest (Apr 21, 2009)

Oh trust me I have a dresser full of ropes and I am not afraid to put her over my knee and giver her the spanking for not following through the plan. I have been known to grab her dress up and while she is doing the dishes or cooking on the stove when the kids are not around. 

I am not afraid to make my wants known and be the aggressive one to get across the ocean I know sometimes you have to take controls of the oars but sometimes when your trying to get across the ocean and you been rowing a long time you want your partner to say....... Hey you look a little tired why dont I take a few strokes with that oar. LOL

I understand what your saying and yes woman respond different and get in the mood different. They talk pink and hear pink and we talk blue and hear blue. 

Truth is that next morning she got her coffee and bed and didnt get to leave the bed till she had two shangerlas. She sipped coffee while I ate breakfast and then we unmade the bed. I was just hoping I didnt have the lead the charge across the field for once.


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## Cyclist (Aug 22, 2012)

Happyquest said:


> Remember before you were married when you didnt have to hint. She would grab you and be kissing you. Unzip and whisper in your ear all the crazy stuff that she has been thinking? I remember her buying our first VCR and we would send the day watching porn tapes and talking about the crazy stuff now porn is off limits. trackers installed on the computer.
> 
> I didnt have do anything more than smile and it was go time. Give me 20 min alone with her and I can pretty much tell you what we were doing and I didnt have to do much to get her in the mood.
> 
> ...


life gets in the way.

and it sucks.

Actually life gets in HER way. Other things come into play. Kids, business, house, bills, etc.

Woman just do not think about it the way we do. Common thread on here.

If you find one that does...lock her down!!!

I can remember my GF running home to me to get naked. Running into my arms. Running to the shower to get ready for our time in bed every night. Now she works late and that extra 30 mins just is not available. 

Frustrating for sure.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Be happy if you have some place to charge to.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Ummm she said you can't answer a question with a question...
> 
> That means she WANTS you to take the lead!!!!!!
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

You're trying to read her mind, she's trying to read your mind. Assumptions are made, everyone is feeling rejected and confused. Both of you need to sit down and TALK about this. 

If I had to guess, she's as unhappy as your are about this desultory path to sex. For god's sake LEAD!

If you're having difficulty with this concept, as my husband did, and your haven't already tried it, read around on the forums on MMSLP. You might not feel like doing the whole man up thing, but it will help drive home how desire works for a lot of women. And if you want sex with her, good enthusiastic sex, you're going to have to become a student of her desire. (A lifelong student, for, as others have pointed out, a woman's desire is a moving target. Paying attention and learning the cues should be part of every man's "marriage maintenance" toobox.)

Good sex lives just don't happen, they are made.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Cyclist said:


> but instead we get code. Ya gotta be in the CIA to understand the code.


:rofl:


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Cyclist said:


> life gets in the way.
> 
> and it sucks.
> 
> ...


Search this forum for the term responsive desire. A lot of women seem to be this way. They are sexual and enjoy it, but it does not pop into their head on its own. But when a man works to help them, they get going very quickly.

My wife is this way. When we were dating, she was very sexual. Initiating herself and eager. She was still that way when we married. But when kids came into the picture, things changed. Our focus was no longer solely on each other. Add to it her struggle with her perception of what a good mother was (hint: a good mother is not a sex kitten). So it was harder to get her focused and she certainly did not initiate like she used to. So I had to change how I approached things.

One thing I always remember is that marriage and kids cause a whole lot of changes for women. Much more so than for me. Yes, kids changed my perspective, but my roles did not feel all that different. But they changed a lot for her. Figuring our her role as a woman, a wife, and a mother, as well as her career (figuring out what a SAHM does). All with a body that is stretched out in different places and hormones changing things (she had to get a new prescription for her glasses after each child).

So with all that going on, I can't expect things to stay the same. I did originally and was miserable. The OPs story was fine in the beginning. I was ticked as heck over her awful behavior. What I learned, both here and through books, is that it is often not even intentional. It is just the result of a change in circumstances. So I have to change how I approached things. More aggressive in many ways. More focused on her earlier on. Better reading of the signals she is sending (and that includes making clear when you don't want sex and just want to cuddle).

It can get better. As I improved, she has responded more. She is more comfortable with me again. I think part is because I am not rejecting her when she initiates in her own way. That has given her the confidence to be bolder now. Still not the way I do it (at least very often), but definitely more obvious, even to this male.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

The talking thing has never worked in my situation, I've talked til I'm blue in the face and blue in other places as well. I am also very sure to give her time to talk and she just doesn't have anything. No suggestions on ways I can improve, what I need to do to make her feel more in tune and how I can help her want me. I get the hint


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> One thing I always remember is that marriage and kids cause a whole lot of changes for women. Much more so than for me. Yes, kids changed my perspective, but my roles did not feel all that different. *But they changed a lot for her. Figuring our her role as a woman, a wife, and a mother, as well as her career (figuring out what a SAHM does). All with a body that is stretched out in different places and hormones changing things (she had to get a new prescription for her glasses after each child).*
> 
> So with all that going on, I can't expect things to stay the same. I did originally and was miserable. The OPs story was fine in the beginning. I was ticked as heck over her awful behavior. What I learned, both here and through books, is that it is often not even intentional. It is just the result of a change in circumstances. So I have to change how I approached things. More aggressive in many ways. More focused on her earlier on. Better reading of the signals she is sending (and that includes making clear when you don't want sex and just want to cuddle).
> 
> It can get better. As I improved, she has responded more. She is more comfortable with me again. I think part is because I am not rejecting her when she initiates in her own way. That has given her the confidence to be bolder now. Still not the way I do it (at least very often), but definitely more obvious, even to this male.


It is so refreshing to see this written from a mans perspective!

Great post Tag,


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## Happyquest (Apr 21, 2009)

". All with a body that is stretched out in different places and hormones changing things (she had to get a new prescription for her glasses after each child)."

I have to agree there. She has about worn our thermostat out. my house goes from 90 degrees to 20 degrees with each of her hot flashes. 70 degrees is just a temperature we are passing through these days.

I guess her sexual desire is like her internal thermostat these days. In 10 min its about to change. If I cant satisfy her comfort zone for Temperature during menopause I am probably going to have a hard time reading her sexual desire too. 

I need a decoder ring and a set of instructions


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> It is so refreshing to see this written from a mans perspective!
> 
> Great post Tag,


Hard won knowledge, for certain.

But once I learned, changed my approach and saw positive results, the resentment vanished almost completely right away.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Seems to me one re-occurring problem is dealing with the neutrality of the LD partner.

Sex is a dance and both people have their responsibilities. After you have been in a relationship for a while it is easy to become casual and lax about your part. Most people do that.

Assuming your spouse is a typical person and the sex life has only become flat. 

The question to ask is, are both people doing their part?
And if your partner misses a beat, do you cover for them to help them get back in step?

I made the grave mistake in shaking my wife's confidence early on and it took several years to get it back. Not that we will ever be the best coordinated dance team around but you want it to be as good as possible.

If she goes from ripping his clothes off to giving subtle hints he should not respond by going from ripping her clothes off to being passive. (unless he likes to slow dance)

Not that I am any great authority of how to keep the pace up. I think that you have to accept that after the initial mating period sex is very likely to become less frequent (or at least in my view that seems to be normal). Optimal frequency may also change due to environmental factors. 

So the goal can only be the best possible sex and not sex seven days a week. 

So when your partner misses a step make sure you cover for them. 

-and then you have done the best you can.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Happyquest said:


> ". All with a body that is stretched out in different places and hormones changing things (she had to get a new prescription for her glasses after each child)."
> 
> I have to agree there. She has about worn our thermostat out. my house goes from 90 degrees to 20 degrees with each of her hot flashes. 70 degrees is just a temperature we are passing through these days.
> 
> ...


Yes and no. 

Yes, because with menopause, you have another set of changes that you need to adapt to.

No, because in the example you gave, I don't think it is clear that her mood changed in a mere 10 minutes. As I noted, I think she did initiate, but you missed it. You want her to jump you and she won't (or can't) bring herself to do that. Consider that her "stopping" in the hot tub was actually her wanting you to move things to the next level. 

Look, you may be right that she left you hanging. But based on your posts, I don't think you have enough information to know that. If the next time you accept her invitation, and she defers in the hot tub and then defers again in the bed, than I am with you that she was being a tease. But you have to push a bit in those situations before you can jump to that conclusion.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Happyquest said:


> What the heck. if your going to start to play continue dont stop or just dont start. If you say in the morning you want to have fun tonight follow through.


Tell her that.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> Yes, because with menopause, you have another set of changes that you need to adapt to.
> 
> ...


If by "push a bit" you mean arouse and seduce, I completely agree!


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

norajane said:


> If by "push a bit" you mean arouse and seduce, I completely agree!


Yes, kind of. Definitely arouse and seduce. But in the example of the hot tub, she started things and then stopped (which I interpret as her stopping her actions, rather than telling him no more sex). I presume she was already some what aroused. Rather than doing nothing, he should have pushed a bit to continue things. Kissing, fondling and manual stimulation. I interpret her actions as inviting him to start pursuing her.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Yes, kind of. Definitely arouse and seduce. But in the example of the hot tub, she started things and then stopped (which I interpret as her stopping her actions, rather than telling him no more sex). I presume she was already some what aroused. Rather than doing nothing, he should have pushed a bit to continue things. Kissing, fondling and manual stimulation. I interpret her actions as inviting him to start pursuing her.


Yes, we mean the same thing. She may have started things, but that doesn't mean she didn't need him to fuel her fire some more to keep things going.


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## Devotee (Sep 22, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Search this forum for the term responsive desire. A lot of women seem to be this way. They are sexual and enjoy it, but it does not pop into their head on its own. But when a man works to help them, they get going very quickly.
> 
> My wife is this way. When we were dating, she was very sexual. Initiating herself and eager. She was still that way when we married. But when kids came into the picture, things changed. Our focus was no longer solely on each other. Add to it her struggle with her perception of what a good mother was (hint: a good mother is not a sex kitten). So it was harder to get her focused and she certainly did not initiate like she used to. So I had to change how I approached things.
> 
> ...


Your post ought to be a sticky. Thats how spot on and eloquent it is. I will echo that it is nice to hear these words from a man's perspective. Completely sums up what happens often for married couples over the years. 

Don't want to hijack, but did you talk to your wife about these changes, or was your behavior something you elected to keep private and just initiate on your own?

I have worked very hard in my marriage over the last year or so not to send the subtle signals- because my H was not catching on. So I am much more aggressive about my needs now.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Devotee said:


> Don't want to hijack, but did you talk to your wife about these changes, or was your behavior something you elected to keep private and just initiate on your own?


I did not initially discuss them with her. I started by fixing somethings in me that were not working for either of us. I did not tell her because I could not really articulate what I wanted to fix. Sex was part of it (and the part that started me thinking) but it was not the only or even main reason. Talking about sex had not worked, so I did not see how discussing this when I was so confused about things could really help.

Now that things are good, we talk about it some. She has hinted that she knows something changed, but never come out and asked. I have talked about some specific changes, but never really discussed my thinking back then. Most of our discussions now are about where we are currently (she relates to the Candice Cameron article that has made the rounds) and where we are going.



> I have worked very hard in my marriage over the last year or so not to send the subtle signals- because my H was not catching on. So I am much more aggressive about my needs now.


Without him on board with how you have changed, I think that is important. I will say that as I figured things out and improved, she has become far more aggressive in getting what she needs from me sexually. The best resources for me were this forum, No More Mr. Nice Guy, and the Married Man's Sex Life, stirred in with a whole lot of luck. But it is now working for us and we are both working hard to continue that.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Happyquest said:


> I was just hoping I didnt have the lead the charge across the field for once.


Now what do the men always say to the women here?

We are not mind readers.

Next time you two are cuddling after sex you say the following...

"I love chasing you down, making love to you; being with you. I would love for you to be the aggressor on me occasionally. I imagine you setting the scene and you arranging for us to be together and I love thinking about how you would attack my body for your own enjoyment."


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## Happyquest (Apr 21, 2009)

Anon Pink said:


> "I love chasing you down, making love to you; being with you. I would love for you to be the aggressor on me occasionally. I imagine you setting the scene and you arranging for us to be together and I love thinking about how you would attack my body for your own enjoyment."


I have had this conversation a few times. In fact when she began in the morning talking about how the daughter was going to be away and what we might do I was thinking she maybe acting on the conversation. She knows I am mostly the aggressor and work hard at filling her needs and passive romantic desires. 

Some times I do like to feel desired. Someone that is willing to grab hold and say I want this. Just like she has told me that she wants to know that she is desired and that I am thinking about her and her body while I am at work. 

When she told me that she wanted to know when I am wanting her and thinking of her. I have called her on the way home from work and told her to get undressed lean over the bed and be waiting for me. That when I come through the door I am going to be very excited and that she is to be ready for me. Nothing will be said but in less than a minute from walking in the door I want to be buried in warm heaven. It was very hot for both of us and has been repeated from time to time.

There has been and is communication and I do understand that my wife wants me to take the lead and I have many times. I understand there are times things with the wife too and hormones change. I was just disappointed and came here to vent. I probably shouldn't have vented here. 

Life is good moving on to bigger and better things.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> ...I would love for you to be the aggressor on me occasionally. I imagine you setting the scene and you arranging for us to be together and I love thinking about how you would attack my body for your own enjoyment."


While I like the idea, I have wonder if that is a more intermediate to advanced level. 

"I love chasing you down, making love to you; being with you"

You need to start with a lot of this. If she even makes a slight hint about sex consider it to be the most outrageous act of lust you ever heard and reward her for it by showing her that she excites you. 

(I am not saying to start humping her leg on the spot) 

By building up her confidence you might be able to coax out a bit more overtness in her with time.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Happyquest said:


> There has been and is communication and I do understand that my wife wants me to take the lead and I have many times. I understand there are times things with the wife too and hormones change. I was just disappointed and came here to vent. I probably shouldn't have vented here.


Venting is good too. Just let us know so we don't waste tons of electrons while analyzing your situation to the microscopic level.



> Life is good moving on to bigger and better things.


Great to hear.


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