# Mo



## Deadbirde (Aug 29, 2021)

No


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How much time have the two of you spent together, in person?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Sorry but for me, having to claim yo convert to a religion I don’t believe in or am not actually converting to is a non-starter. Marriage is too important to base on lies. What you are expecting of him is not reasonable. Even though it’s not a religion you believe in yourself.

There has to be another way. Obviously you feel differently but I don’t think you understand what it means for an honorable person to have to lie. Do your parents understand his conversion wouldn’t be real?


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## Amanhasnoname (Apr 1, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> How much time have the two of you spent together, in person?


Just what I was thinking. 
From the post I don't see any mention of Deadbirde and her bf ever having actually met in person.
People can often come across as totally different in real life as compared with a virtual one.


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## Deadbirde (Aug 29, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> How much time have the two of you spent together, in person?


less than 5 months in 5 years but a lot of time on calls/video calls. Upto 8-9 hours some days (especially during lockdown)


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## Deadbirde (Aug 29, 2021)

Amanhasnoname said:


> Just what I was thinking.
> From the post I don't see any mention of Deadbirde and her bf ever having actually met in person.
> People can often come across as totally different in real life as compared with a virtual one.


We’ve travelled three countries together and volunteered and worked there.


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## Deadbirde (Aug 29, 2021)

Unf


Casual Observer said:


> Sorry but for me, having to claim yo convert to a religion I don’t believe in or am not actually converting to is a non-starter. Marriage is too important to base on lies. What you are expecting of him is not reasonable. Even though it’s not a religion you believe in yourself.
> 
> There has to be another way. Obviously you feel differently but I don’t think you understand what it means for an honorable person to have to lie. Do your parents understand his conversion wouldn’t be real?


Yes my parents do understand. The problem is bigger than just my parents “wanting” him to be a Muslim. I was born into a Muslim family. I became agnostic in my early teens. Just the fact that I’m putting this out here online is dangerous for me as getting out of Islam is punishable by death in my country. Because of which I can’t change my religion in my documents. I’m considered Muslim by my laws. And in order for a Muslim to be legally married in my country, I’m only allowed to marry someone also registered as a Muslim in the country. I 100% agree on not getting married based on lies. I don’t want it. But my country doesn’t give me a choice. Or atleast I haven’t figured out a way yet


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Deadbirde said:


> My bf and I have known each other for 5 years. We were friends. Got into a relationship last year. We’ve an AMAZING relationship (I confirmed with a relationship therapist). We’ve similar mindset, similar vision for our future and every thing that is needed for a healthy, happy relationship. We are both in our 20s. We want to be together and to live together and build a life together.
> Everything in our relationship is amazing, except that it’s not. Here’s why:
> 1- We live in different “Polar opposite countries”. We’ve been doing LDR. (we manage to meet after a few months).
> 2- I come from a conservative poor Islamic country where living with a guy before marriage is punishable by death in some cases. But he comes from a free first world country where living before marriage is considered a must step before marriage. But This step isn’t possible for two reasons:
> ...



I echo other questions about how much time have you actually spent together in person. If this is an almost wholly online relationship then getting married is a huge leap of faith. You and he do not know the real person. I married outside of my race and religion and had much less resistance from families than you and I can tell you now it is a long hard climb, due to major cultural differences. You may be in love now and say you are an athiest etc but when children come, religion can become a very devisive topic for the couple. I think you should focus on your business, make it work well enough that you are a free woman who can leave the country easily. In my own case I moved to his country but made sure I had a good job lined up (he couldn't get a job in my country due to visas etc). I refused to move unless I could take care of myself in case anything went wrong and the relationship failed. What is stopping you from moving to his country. Yes a Pakistan passport is not the best but lots of people from your country move to other parts of the world. Or what about a middle country, a more moderate Muslim country (say in SE asia)?


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## EveningThoughts (Jul 12, 2018)

.........


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## Deadbirde (Aug 29, 2021)

aine said:


> I echo other questions about how much time have you actually spent together in person. If this is an almost wholly online relationship then getting married is a huge leap of faith. You and he do not know the real person. I married outside of my race and religion and had much less resistance from families than you and I can tell you now it is a long hard climb, due to major cultural differences. You may be in love now and say you are an athiest etc but when children come, religion can become a very devisive topic for the couple. I think you should focus on your business, make it work well enough that you are a free woman who can leave the country easily. In my own case I moved to his country but made sure I had a good job lined up (he couldn't get a job in my country due to visas etc). I refused to move unless I could take care of myself in case anything went wrong and the relationship failed. What is stopping you from moving to his country. Yes a Pakistan passport is not the best but lots of people from your country move to other parts of the world. Or what about a middle country, a more moderate Muslim country (say in SE asia)?


As I mentioned, we travelled three countries together and volunteered and worked together. But all in all we spent less than 5 months in person. I think the thing that’s stopping me from moving to another country is how I can move. I’d either have to get a job somewhere or get a student visa. I graduated in a field that has nothing to do with my current career which makes it trickier for me to get a job somewhere outside of Pakistan. But your advice seems super solid. I should focus on building my career first in case something goes wrong. 
about Religion of children. We’ve already discussed this and we both want to leave this choice on our kids while raising them as good humans irrespective of any religion


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## Deadbirde (Aug 29, 2021)

EveningThoughts said:


> You are willing to leave your family and country for this man.
> 
> Putting aside the complications for a moment.
> If your marriage didn't work out in the end, you would be in a new country without your family.
> ...


That’s true. It’s a risk for sure. I’ll still have the option of going back to my country. I think


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Where is your boyfriend from? I don't think you mention that. I know you are from Pakistan, according to the flag.


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## Deadbirde (Aug 29, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Where is your boyfriend from? I don't think you mention that. I know you are from Pakistan, according to the flag.


He’s from France.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Deadbirde said:


> He’s from France.


Great... get a tourist visa, come to Europe, get married, get a job. Forget everything else.


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## Deadbirde (Aug 29, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Great... get a tourist visa, come to Europe, get married, get a job. Forget everything else.


I’m considering that option too. Just need a hefty bank statement in order to even get a tourist visa for Europe


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Deadbirde said:


> I’m considering that option too. Just need a hefty bank statement in order to even get a tourist visa for Europe


That could be one of your goals. If you want to be together, you can. I was in a LDR for 2 years and we made it (although, admittedly, we were both in Europe). You can do it too.


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## Deadbirde (Aug 29, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> That could be one of your goals. If you want to be together, you can. I was in a LDR for 2 years and we made it (although, admittedly, we were both in Europe). You can do it too.


I wish it was that simple in my case. It’d be another fight for me to convince my parents to let me go to him without marrying us by Islamic laws. But yeah it can be done. Thanks for giving me new hope


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Deadbirde said:


> I wish it was that simple in my case. It’d be another fight for me to convince my parents to let me go to him without marrying us by Islamic laws. But yeah it can be done. Thanks for giving me new hope


I left my own country, massively disappointing my parents. You can do it. It's YOUR life!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

To be honest the odds are against you working out. 
Would he be ok becoming Muslim? 
The only option I can see is if you visit him there as long as you can, no living together, and look into marriage.


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

@Deadbirde I would advice you to think deeply and rationally about this, there is always a chance that this will not work long term, you will lose both your family and your husband!
Always think long term!


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Can he open a bank account in your name, put in the funds needed to satisfy a tourist visa (+), then you could come being truthful in your application. If things become difficult, it would give you an honest path.

Convert to Islam today and beg forgiveness tomorrow is not a healthy start, even for agnostics.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

@Deadbirde,

Can you leave your country without your parent's permission? Or is there some legal obstacle?

If the two of you were married, would it be easier for you to get a visa to move to France?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Yes, the stakes are very high. So, no, you shouldn’t consider having him pretend to convert.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Deadbirde said:


> I wish it was that simple in my case. It’d be another fight for me to convince my parents to let me go to him without marrying us by Islamic laws. But yeah it can be done. Thanks for giving me new hope


When you're an adult ready to act like an adult, you really don't wait for your parents' permission. I think it will be these little things which will mess up the relationship in the end, your dependence and subservience to your parents and their religion. You're still far from independent. Move out and get two jobs and save money so you can do whatever you want to do.


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## TheSeaRefusesNoRiver (Oct 17, 2019)

The advice of a relationship therapist who tells you that you have the perfect relationship should be taken with a large grain of salt. The only people who have any credibility saying that are you and your boyfriend. No therapist has that kind of insight into your relationship. They only see what you choose to show them.

The problems that you mention are non-trivial. You'll need a rock-solid foundation in your relationship to navigate them. Only you can decide if that foundation can weather the political and religious storm. Now is a good time to understand that in addition to politics and religion you do not just marry a person. You are marrying the people who have influenced their development as a person. In my experience, one or both of you will want to have your families in your lives. You will need to learn to respect that, and have each other's backs when it comes to dealing with whatever those people expect from your marriage while at the same time encouraging your spouse to have the kind of relationship they want with those people. That's a tightrope.

Agnosticism is a particular problem in a marriage because it acknowledges that faith is an open-ended question. Each of you is saying that you neither believe or disbelieve - however, in my experience that belief or disbelief is fluid. It will change with time and sometimes a lot when kids come into the picture. What do I want my children to grow up believing? Is the faith of my parents so bad? Do I really have that faith, but have just been agnostic to avoid whatever that faith demand of me? How do my new perspective and my previous commitments conflict? How will you handle it if each of you goes in the direction of the faith that you knew as children?

Marriage is a lot of work; even more when you've cut off everything and everyone you have known. In my experience, it is difficult to really comprehend what it takes to keep a marriage working before you're living it - and equally difficult once you're married, because we learn by first making mistakes. If we are lucky and committed to serving each other, we lick our wounds, learn from our mistakes, and try again. Having people who want us to succeed in our corner makes a huge difference because their support encourages us. Having family constantly try to poison the pond stacks the odds against the success of the marriage.

From an agnostic point of view, marriage is fundamentally a financial agreement. A good match will provide for raising children and our own financial future. From a more "spiritual" perspective, marriages do not work when we only consider what it will do for us - we must consider our commitment to enriching the other person's life instead. Only then can we look at whether they are equally committed to enriching our life and understand whether it's a good match. When two people are selflessly committed to serving each other, the marriage is off to a good start. You need introspection to be able to understand what you will bring to the marriage and the other person.

You certainly have a lot to think about, and at the end of the day the two of you are the only people who can decide whether you want to continue the relationship and move towards marriage. Best to you both.


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