# Negotiating tactic I see recommended here a lot ...



## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

I read often on TAM a tactic being recommended that uses fear of loss. I recognize the "fear of loss" tactics from something in sales training many years ago where they were teaching that fear of loss is a greater motivator than opportunity to gain, but they were teaching this to sales people who needed to close one deal with people they were dealing with, and not sales people who needed longer term relationships. I haven't worked in sales in many years, so I don't know if this is still taught, but I think it is.

In sales, this is visible in everything from the "hurry, these deals won't last ... " ads to the sales person negotiating a price and telling the person if they leave the lot, the deal will not be in effect when they return ... and there's the fear the car won't be there, or don't delay your purchase because interest rates will be rising next week ... you get the picture. The sales person must find some pain point, sell to that pain point, and develop a fear of a loss based in that area.

I agree with the statement of fear of loss being a greater motivator than opportunity to gain in the short term, but I really dislike using it in negotiations on anything in longer term relationships. I think it only works for short term, and overuse of this tactic will get the bluff called in a longer term relationship, and once the fear of loss is exposed, it never has the same power again. Even more than that, I have a problem using this in relationships because it always feels manipulative to me, and I don't like to be on either side of that. Particularly, in marriage, I know my spouse has to be vulnerable with me, and I don't want to betray the trust they have in being vulnerable with me. 

I like to work with the whole person, respect where their boundaries are, expect the same from them, and find where we can work together. I've been successful with this even in some pretty intense negotiations where both parties are required to make some significant changes. I may use fear of loss in things where loss is a real possibility if we delay, but honestly, I very seldom employ fear of loss to get anything from my spouse, and the threat of loss I have used has never been that I will leave ... of course, I've never wanted to leave, either, so it would have been hollow and dishonest for me to use that ... 

I'd like to hear from other people. Do you use fear of loss in your negotiations with your spouse? Does your spouse use it with you? Do you think the way it is used is healthy in your relationship? Even if either gets what he/she wants in such a negotiation, do you find it to be healthy longer term in your relationship?

I'm just interested to hear other viewpoints on it as it relates to negotiations with married partners.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

My ex used the fear of loss with me all the time. Eventually I didn't fear anymore. And it worked to my advantage. 

One tends to grow tired/exhausted with the threat of divorce at every turn.


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> My ex used the fear of loss with me all the time. Eventually I didn't fear anymore. And it worked to my advantage.
> 
> One tends to grow tired/exhausted with the threat of divorce at every turn.


This is exactly what I meant by thinking it only works short term. Yes. I can see that.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

That kind of negotiation doesn't work for me. I could accommodate it in the short term and offered alternatives like marriage counseling or viable options (switching job, etc.) but threats of divorce or mention of suicide, they just don't grab my heartstrings the way they used to. Just makes the person using these 'negotiations' look old, tired, and single-track mind, desperate for you to agree to their view of things (which is dangerous in a marriage, for both parties to always agree to one spouse's decisions and thoughts and values.) I think these sorts of tactics get stale when used too many times. The person loses his power and looks like a little flea under a glass hopping around trying to say something. Also, after a while, the person compromising might not have anything left to give, and may simply walk away realizing that even too much is not enough. Also, they might decide that their adrenal system is being compromised and it's not worth the roller coaster ride. 
If someone is negotiating but they're not showing their cards, the tactic doesn't really matter. That's not negotiating, that's just playing to win, and there's a huge difference.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> I could accommodate it in the short term and offered alternatives like marriage counseling or viable options *but threats of divorce or mention of suicide, they just don't grab my heartstrings the way they used to*.



Made me :rofl: Haha.



Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Also, after a while, the person compromising might not have anything left to give, and may simply walk away realizing that even too much is not enough.


:iagree::iagree: And the adrenal system too!


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

I agree with you that the fear of loss is not a good negotiating tactic in a healthy marriage where both spouses have each other's best interest at heart.

However, this tactic is necessary with a cheating spouse who is in the emotional fog of an affair. It also works to change the relationship dynamic when constant fights have caused spouses to lose love for each other. They must realize what is at stake if they are to change how they relate to each other.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> However, this tactic is necessary with a cheating spouse who is in the emotional fog of an affair.


I agree. In fact, that negotiating tactic is the ONLY thing I have seen work with a cheating spouse. But the consequence has to be enforced, or else, no nice.

But if it's just threatening everytime there is an argument and withholding affection/sex/emotional needs, it will blow up in your face eventually. It's simply a sickening controlling thing to do to someone to manipulate them to get what you want. Ew.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

shy_guy said:


> I'm just interested to hear other viewpoints on it as it relates to negotiations with married partners.


Yes I use it subtly.

I never threatened my wife with divorce but I will withhold affection and become indifferent to her when she`s taking me for granted.

Been working for awhile now, she comes around quickly when she thinks I`m losing interest.


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> If someone is negotiating but they're not showing their cards, the tactic doesn't really matter. That's not negotiating, that's just playing to win, and there's a huge difference.


Good distinction.


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## abandonedcompletely (Dec 21, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> I agree. In fact, that negotiating tactic is the ONLY thing I have seen work with a cheating spouse. But the consequence has to be enforced, or else, no nice.
> 
> But if it's just threatening everytime there is an argument and withholding affection/sex/emotional needs, it will blow up in your face eventually. *It's simply a sickening controlling thing to do to someone to manipulate them to get what you want.* Ew.


:iagree:

I can't handle any kind of manipulation in a relationship. Using manipulation tactics does not show respect and concern for your partner. Manipulation is all about getting your own way at any cost.

Now, if it's being used because of infidelity, that's different, that is if you're willing to follow through.

I


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

abandonedcompletely said:


> I can't handle any kind of manipulation in a relationship. Using manipulation tactics does not show respect and concern for your partner. Manipulation is all about getting your own way at any cost.


I`ve never known a romantic relationship to be anything other than a series of mutual manipulations.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> I agree with you that the fear of loss is not a good negotiating tactic in a healthy marriage where both spouses have each other's best interest at heart.
> 
> However, this tactic is necessary with a cheating spouse who is in the emotional fog of an affair. It also works to change the relationship dynamic when constant fights have caused spouses to lose love for each other. They must realize what is at stake if they are to change how they relate to each other.


Oh, I agree entirely.
The issue is that after I moved out, and said I was filing for divorce, I did get him back. But he was even worse than he was before...and wouldn't go for counseling, and threatened suicide and then said he felt abused :-o then he suggested divorce (for like the 20th time, whereas I was only serious the one time, when I moved out), so gee, if someone feels that depressed around me and feels abused and wants a divorce and has their very own house and I have my very own apartment already, easy peasy! Take yo stuff and go. Obviously he didn't read Ury Fisher 'Getting to Yes'.

If you're into negotiating, this is a good book to read.
I think there's a chapter on walking away. 
If you continue to bargain with someone who cannot deliver, you pretty much scrr*w your options of being able to engage with someone who can. There is this thing outside the direct equation called next best option/opportunity cost also something called 'cutting your losses'.

But to answer question, yes it works. The question is, are you pleased with the outcome, and how many times can you use the tactic? If you are rational, and you move out once, and you expend your resources on this, then you don't have the same option again. Most people don't have unlimited funds, or want to be considered as the person who goes back and forth with a cheating H. A woman can lose her pride and also respect of others which in small communities especially if you have children, is a very real asset that affects quality of life. There's also how the decision affects your options once you have gained success. Sometimes you turn the corner, and wow, look, now instead of a nice horizon there's a brick wall with a sign on it. The sign says 'Bang Head Here.'

Edited to add: you have to be careful, because if you're dealing with someone who makes the same threats just to maintain control but has no intent to give up a relationship where they will REMAIN in control (forever), they might think you're DOING THE SAME THING, when you're not, and they will play the game by agreeing to everything, thinking that permanent change is not really being asked for. They can't experience from external sources what they don't already have inside of them. They'll interpret your behavior according to what it would mean if they were doing it. In fact, it might be comforting for them! Here is a relationship they can understand, and finally you are playing along. Ugh.


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## abandonedcompletely (Dec 21, 2011)

tacoma said:


> I`ve never known a romantic relationship to be anything other than a series of mutual manipulations.


I've seen manipulation being used with many couples and sadly, it only makes the situation worse. I don't know why it's so difficult with some to be honest with what's going on in their head and heart?

I really do believe in "speak the truth in love"


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

tacoma said:


> I`ve never known a romantic relationship to be anything other than a series of mutual manipulations.


Yes, but those are fun! Or should be, and open you up to the world in which your partner lives, and allows you the opportunity to share your own.

And, it is important to practice on the little things, because there will always be big things, and you need to have a 'style' established, AND be aware of that style and how it could trip you up as a couple.

What I'm talking about is things like deciding on the recreation for an evening out...or what movie to see...or what grocery store to go to... then you get things like where to live, how to arrange work life/home life....how to manage when sex drives don't jive for a while...where to vacation, kid matters, retirement...

Getting to Yes is written for diplomatic matters, but it also applies to individuals.


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

tacoma said:


> I`ve never known a romantic relationship to be anything other than a series of mutual manipulations.


I'm sure I'm missing what you're saying here ... others seem to be getting it. Could you expound on that a little bit, please?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SG,
There is a giant difference between:
1. I don't like how you treat me, so I tell you that I am seriously thinking about divorcing you 
2. I don't like how you treat me, have told you enough that you fully understand my view of the situation and I am now beginning to make a conscious decision to deprioritize you

Both of those approaches will create fear if your partner wants to stay together for their own benefit. The first is not my style. Without the second I would have no means of getting my W to adjust her behavior when she was feeling uncooperative. My W has never changed her behavior because I was angry at her. She consistently makes minor adjustments to avoid (2). 




shy_guy said:


> I read often on TAM a tactic being recommended that uses fear of loss. I recognize the "fear of loss" tactics from something in sales training many years ago where they were teaching that fear of loss is a greater motivator than opportunity to gain, but they were teaching this to sales people who needed to close one deal with people they were dealing with, and not sales people who needed longer term relationships. I haven't worked in sales in many years, so I don't know if this is still taught, but I think it is.
> 
> In sales, this is visible in everything from the "hurry, these deals won't last ... " ads to the sales person negotiating a price and telling the person if they leave the lot, the deal will not be in effect when they return ... and there's the fear the car won't be there, or don't delay your purchase because interest rates will be rising next week ... you get the picture. The sales person must find some pain point, sell to that pain point, and develop a fear of a loss based in that area.
> 
> ...


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

I work in Sales and have for years. My approach is to develop a trusting relationship with my prospect and signed clients. it has worked very well for me as I regularly take business from my better know competitor and have great references from well known companies that used to be with the big boys.

I saw an ad for a sales postition for this better known competitor where the boast teaching their sales people 'spin selling' techniques. Basically fear selling. Not the best way to get references from your long term relationship clients.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

I don't think "fear of loss" should be used as a negotiation tactic, I think it should be the very last step in a true crossroads of a relationship. Meaning, when you mention a divorce, you are literally one foot out the door already with no intent to turn back if your spouse does not fight to keep you.

Using "divorce" as a continued threat tactic is indeed useless and downright toxic to a relationship. You can't build together as a team when the idea of separation is constantly thrown into your mix.

I wouldn't even make jokes playfully using the word "divorce" with my wife... the term is that serious. It should be respected that way.


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> SG,
> There is a giant difference between:
> 1. I don't like how you treat me, so I tell you that I am seriously thinking about divorcing you
> 2. I don't like how you treat me, have told you enough that you fully understand my view of the situation and I am now beginning to make a conscious decision to deprioritize you
> ...


I can't pretend that I've been in your shoes, but your response has me interested. How long have you been able to effectively use 2 to get a change in behavior from your wife? I'm curious how long you think it is sustainable. (I'm not trying to set you up. I'm trying to hear your side.)


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

stritle said:


> the only "rule" my wife and i set with each other when we married was that there would be no ultimatums of divorce.
> 
> i broke that rule late last year. i guess it wasn't stated so much as an ultimatum, but the message was clear.
> 
> not a great feeling as it certainly wasn't a bluff, but it did the job. all is good.


Maybe sometimes we all need a bit of a wake-up call. It sounds like she woke up, so that is good. I think you hit it correctly when you said it wasn't a bluff, and in my case, I stated I've never wanted to leave, so there is a basic difference in where you and I have been experientially. I'm glad to hear that all is good.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Obviously, any marriage based on any kind of fear tactics is not a healthy marriage. But there also needs to be consequences for behaviour that falls outside of the marriage boundaries. Whether you deliberately employ fear of loss as a tactic or not, it is almost always implied within the relationship at some level. If I go out and spend my month's pay on hookers, I can expect my wife to withdraw from me. I don't want to lose her, so I'll make sure to only spend one week's pay. I kid, I kid. 

My point is that sometimes the threat is overt and sometimes it's implied, but it's still there. And when major issues come into the marriage, as in the case of potential affairs, I don't think it's a bad thing to bring the possible consequences out into the open. I think it's about how you handle it. There needs to be love and balance, not revenge or ill-will, as far as motivation goes. Nothing positive comes out of negativity.


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

MSP, I've had a little time to think on your response. I will agree there is balance to be maintained, and that is true of the implied consequences of the relationship that you mention. When thinking about your response, I started thinking personality types a lot more. I'm not as skilled in psychological matters as you are, so as always, I look at the things closest to me for clues.

I've had people compliment me on here, and I appreciate that, but I'm never sure how to respond to a compliment in a forum like this. They do this because of what they see me writing. I'm also sure if my wife was the one writing, people would tell her what a gem they think she is, and would tell her they hope I appreciate what a gem I have. (I do recognize it and appreciate it). She is a giver by nature and that comes out in everything from the type of mother she is to the fact that she can't even make a batch of jam without planning to give a certain number of jars to neighbors, friends, family, etc. It's just who she is. That comes out in the type of wife she is as well, and I always recognize that as part of the whole when I'm dealing with her. I've never really felt it necessary to tell her about a negative consequence. 

We've had our moments of mutual frustration in our marriage - I don't think anyone could be married as long as we have and not have those. The latest one came not that many months ago. I initiated the conversation telling her how frustrated I was, and she opened up telling me how she had also become frustrated, and what I was doing that caused it. When we got it out in the open, I really think what I was doing was probably the source of the whole issue because she became frustrated and couldn't respond to me which frustrated me. But our reaction is what I think back on as I read your response to me.

We had our animated discussion that first night, heard each other, and went to bed amicably. The next morning at breakfast, we both had follow-up, and it was obvious that neither of us really knew how the other was perceiving us before we had the discussion the night before. We parted ways amicably that morning, but both of us had heavy hearts I think. When we came back together that night, it was very obvious to each that the other had been thinking hard about it all day, and had been thinking both what we needed to ask, and what we needed to change to get things back on the right track. We both had to make changes in our behavior, but we were both eager to make the changes. I actually found the changes she asked of me to be pleasant, and the reinforcement of her reaction to my changes to be even more pleasant.

To me, the positive is sustainable, but I see a focus on the negative as being strained and unsustainable - that's just my personality. I'm interested to hear how use of consequences works for others though that say they have to go there more often.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

shy_guy said:


> I'm not as skilled in psychological matters as you are


That's kind of you to say, but I know I could learn from you. 



shy_guy said:


> We had our animated discussion that first night, heard each other, and went to bed amicably. The next morning at breakfast, we both had follow-up, and it was obvious that neither of us really knew how the other was perceiving us before we had the discussion the night before. We parted ways amicably that morning, but both of us had heavy hearts I think. When we came back together that night, it was very obvious to each that the other had been thinking hard about it all day, and had been thinking both what we needed to ask, and what we needed to change to get things back on the right track. We both had to make changes in our behavior, but we were both eager to make the changes. I actually found the changes she asked of me to be pleasant, and the reinforcement of her reaction to my changes to be even more pleasant.
> 
> To me, the positive is sustainable, but I see a focus on the negative as being strained and unsustainable - that's just my personality. I'm interested to hear how use of consequences works for others though that say they have to go there more often.


I very much agree with you that the positive is sustainable, while negativity creates stress, ultimately leading to fracture. 

Getting back to loss-avoidance, which I'm also familiar with (I loved Robert Cialdini's take on it), I also agree that this is a stressful motivator, by definition. Yet people are constantly motivated by this tactic. It's very rare that someone will wise up and stop buying just because they had the tactic used on them multiple times before. In fact, it's more likely that they'll continue to be swayed by the same tactics. I think part of the reason why this behaviour can perpetuate is that there is also an associated reward: the purchase. Because of the rewarding outcome (say, securing an item during a brief sale), they have an overall positive association with the entire sequence of events. In fact, they even reframe their experience of loss-avoidant motivation as positive--"Honey, look what I managed to get just before the store sold out! I'm so glad I happened to see the sale." 

So, if the end experience is sufficiently positive, then the entire experience is viewed in a more positive light. Think of childbirth. Women would never become pregnant if the only thing that happened was pregnancy followed by birth, but then no actual child to take home. But because they are rewarded by the baby, they willingly repeat pregnancy and childbirth. Maybe not the best example, but it's all I got this morning. 

However, if all people receive is threats of loss and then, after they alter their behaviour to avoid the potential loss, they are not sufficiently rewarded, they'll stop responding. Also, if the exact same loss is hanging over their heads for long enough they will desensitize. In fact, they'll move towards the threat in order to get it over with. 

This is why, as in the example of you and your wife, there has to be an underlying thread of love throughout the relationship for people to move forward in a consistently positive manner.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Shy_Guy,
I feel the need to describe my marriage overall, with this piece being the smallest part by far. 

The vast majority of my marital interactions are positive, loving, respectful, fun. 

My W likes/needs a certain amount of friction. Certainly more than I do. If I provide her that friction by being a bit aggressive/edgy in a playful way, she is happy. When I forget to do that for a while she create friction by fitness testing me in various ways. 

Mostly we traverse a fitness test in less than 10 minutes and with no change in my blood pressure. Every once in a while my W chooses to push my boundaries and then doubles down. When that happens I simply ratchet back on the nice/loving things I typically do until we reach a resolution that is acceptable to me. Just for clarity sake:
- I don't try to make up when I am the injured party. I am willing to be as patient as needed. Max was a week one time. Typically a day is enough. 
- I do not care about/think about sex and would never initiate in the middle of a dispute
-This "use of cold" - is employed by me 95% of the time to address boundary pushing behavior. I have only used it a couple times for "major" type ongoing issues like when my W started to hang out with a friend who treated her husband like a biological ATM machine. During that time the little acts of service I would ask for (mind you my workload was very high and hers was way, way lower and she would acknowledge that) got treated like they did not matter at all to her despite me getting progressively more upset that I was being deprioritized. I finally "accidentally" stumbled upon the realization that she found ME deprioritizing HER, way, way more upsetting than me getting angry at her. Within a month, a problem that had persisted for most of our marriage, started to get a lot better.

That said, overall she is a great W. And part of the reason we have a wonderful marriage is that I truly, deeply, madly love her and she knows that. And vice versa.....



shy_guy said:


> I can't pretend that I've been in your shoes, but your response has me interested. How long have you been able to effectively use 2 to get a change in behavior from your wife? I'm curious how long you think it is sustainable. (I'm not trying to set you up. I'm trying to hear your side.)


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