# Personalized 180 Plan



## SanityOnHold (Jun 24, 2014)

I'm trying to come up with a modified 180 plan because a number of the points seem to be about bringing a WS back to you or to be used kind of as a last ditch effort when all else fails. Neither of which are really my situation. My wife started having an affair late last summer right at our 15 year anniversary. She physically ended it after a couple months (because he started to be a jerk, NOT because she realized what she was doing was wrong) but kind of kept thinking about him and wanting him all the way through this spring and didn't fully go NC (random texts and reaching out to him through all that time even though they never saw each other.)until late March. That is when I found out and confronted her. 

So I’ve known for about 2 months now, and things are both better and not. They are better because she is finally releasing her emotions for the AP and she tries to “show” she is sorry and she regrets it, but things are not really better because a large enough chunk of what she does or says is still rationalization, rug-sweeping, and just wanting “to move on”. She is a highly defensive, assertive, and prideful woman, so what she does not do is verbally apologize, she does not break down and really own what she has done, and she makes very little attempt to try and really understand my pain or figure out what I need from her. She absolutely refuses to go to any counseling because she doesn’t believe in therapy and doesn’t want to re-live what she did with yet another person. (There is also a healthy dose of subconscious fear in there whether she wants to admit it or not.) Personally, I am going to go to IC. My first appointment set up for next week. She would be willing to read a book, but I couldn’t find one on amazon that I would be happy with her reading. The negative reviews of many of the most highly recommended sound like they also push that the BS shares responsibility for the affair. I own that there were things she needed from me (mainly communication) that I should have been better about, but I take no responsibility for her choice of actions.

So I am still in limbo. She really wants our marriage to work, she loves me and does NOT want a D. But she also just wants to just forget it and move on. She gets really frustrated and cannot understand how I can make love to her, and then the next afternoon have a depressed mood swing. She can’t/won’t place herself in my shoes because, as she puts it: “I know you would never do that, so I can’t imagine it.” That is what I have learned, she is really still stuck in this place of rationalizing what happened instead of owning it and truly apologizing, and she just wants to move on without digging into understanding my pain and figuring out what I need from her to help me move forward (beyond more sex that is.) So I am seriously considering embarking on the 180 plan, but only the portion that makes sense.

All the stuff about ignoring your spouse and not being as communicative, etc. that won’t help. Her “Love Language” is Communication. So things like not texting her, calling her, reaching out to her, or pulling back on conversations, will only push her away. Also, I want to have dates, if we are really trying to reconnect with each other, things like that ARE important I think. So I’m looking mostly into just the bullet points about finding happiness for me. Which leads me to two questions maybe people have experience with:

*Question 1 *
How do I find that balance of doing this for me, but not feeling like I’m just letting her off the hook? I have a hard time starting this process because I think she will take these changes in me as a sign everything is ok and I’m all good, and then I don’t feel like she will EVER make the effort to truly understand my pain and what she did and truly apologize for it and make the effort to find out what SHE can do for ME to make amends for the hell she is putting me through. I know that is the anger talking, but there is truth in there as well. I know finding happiness in myself is probably the best possible plan, but I also don’t know if it is possible for me to truly heal and R without feeling more remorse from her and more of an effort on her part to help me through this. 

*Question 2*
No matter what I do, whether I show happiness around her or not, I have to do some things for my personal growth and happiness. What are some specific recommendations for becoming happy as an individual again when for 15 years your wife and family has been the center of your world and happiness? I just, I can’t see anything that will make me feel happy and confidant and like I’m moving on for myself. I don’t know how to push myself to find happiness outside of my busy life between work and two little boys at home. 

FYI – I am usually pretty busy, so I mean no disrespect if I’m only able to check in/respond on this thread once or twice a day.


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## whatslovegottodowithit? (Jan 6, 2013)

Q1: when my W had some EA/inappropriate contact with others, dating sites, and stalkerish stuff, she was quick to tell me to "get over it" each time I'd ask ?s. I let her know that I will take as long as I feel is necessary to grieve and that asking her ?s about it is part of MY healing process which helps me to forgive you.

Q2: I found treating kindly and acting nicely, no matter how angry a moment I was having with her shenanigans, helped me mentally. Another way to say what worked for me was my mind followed after my actions. I too have a young child (you have more, I know) so this served me well in a couple of 'arenas' so the child saw me being nice to Mom, I wanted to have my actions lead over my feelings/emotions, and for sure don't want to child from a broken home i.e. wanted to just get along with her for my child's sake (if that makes sense?).

Good luck, hope maybe this helps!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

It's my opinion that the 180 should only be used when the BS is seriously considering leaving the marriage; either because of the betrayal itself or for the lack of remorse afterwards.

Your case is apparently the latter. Were your wife truly remorseful she would own what she did; she would not try to rug sweep; she would discuss the A at any time and be truthful.

The 180 is to help you detach. Unless you are willing to divorce her, I wouldn't use it; because there's no guarantee that it will change her mindset. It might or it might not. If it doesn't, and divorce is not an option for you, then you've just damaged your relationship, and your own psyche, even more. 

If you are willing to leave the marriage if she doesn't change, then the 180 is where to start. Prior to implementing it; have a discussion with her about her lack of remorse. Tell her that if she doesn't start owning what she did and do the things she needs to do to help you heal; that you can't continue to attempt R. Then proceed with it if she doesn't come around - all the way to D if necessary. 

It's called the 180 for a reason; not the 90, not the 120, not the 75. Do it all the way or don't do it at all.


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## SanityOnHold (Jun 24, 2014)

Ok, so perhaps the title of this thread and what I was thinking was not quite the right way to phrase what is going on. Let's take a quick step back. I get what you mean about what the 180 is really about and I am not there, I'm not ready to walk away. Neither is my wife quite deserving of that because she does want R (she just doesn't understand what that is going to take on her part) and I believe doing the 180 would cause an end to marriage because of these reasons, which is why I was picking and choosing pieces in my mind. She is committed and wanting the Marriage, but not giving me what I need for R. I have tried telling her certain things I need, but there are things she will and won't really do, which is hard. She is also the type of person if you push, she pushes back and pushes back hard. The quickest way to ensure she doesn't do something is to tell her to do it. And taking the "how would you feel if I had done [x]" hasn't done one thing for her since she just will not put her mind in that place.

So, setting aside the 180 philosophy, I also know that I can't keep living in this depressed slump. I NEED to start changing myself, and changing myself for the better or she won't want to stay working on our marriage. But my two questions do still apply. 

*What are things other people have done to find personal happiness even in the middle of such hell?*

*How do I convey that even though I may be changing for the better (for myself), that my wife needs to do a number of things as well? (Without driving her away by making her feel controlled or forced?)*


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

You seem like a really good guy which just might be the problem.
Do you think your wife would have has a sexual affair and put your health at risk for STD's if she knew that it would have automatically have lead to divorce? I have a hunch she probably thought even if you found out there would be no consequences to her and you would forgive her anyway so she really had nothing to lose.

If the roles had been reversed do you honestly think she would have been acting like you?

I do hope that you insisted on both of you getting tested for STD's.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

There is a very good write up that someone did in the form of a list of things that a WS needs to know about what they have to do for recovery can happen. I'm hoping that someone who reads this has the link it to and will post it for the OP.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

SanityOnHold said:


> *Question 1 *
> How do I find that balance of doing this for me, but not feeling like I’m just letting her off the hook? I have a hard time starting this process because I think she will take these changes in me as a sign everything is ok and I’m all good, and then I don’t feel like she will EVER make the effort to truly understand my pain and what she did and truly apologize for it and make the effort to find out what SHE can do for ME to make amends for the hell she is putting me through. I know that is the anger talking, but there is truth in there as well. I know finding happiness in myself is probably the best possible plan, but I also don’t know if it is possible for me to truly heal and R without feeling more remorse from her and more of an effort on her part to help me through this.
> 
> *Question 2*
> ...


I'm wired different then most but bending my old lady over my knee and spanking her worked for me and her. Granted there is a lot more to this crap then this, it brought out some raw emotion of giving punishment and recieving consequences...

There is a huge degree of submission my old lady stands by in her remorse.....so ya the transparentcy. the accountablity, and excepting what she has become seems to work form us.


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## SanityOnHold (Jun 24, 2014)

bryanp said:


> You seem like a really good guy which just might be the problem.
> Do you think your wife would have has a sexual affair and put your health at risk for STD's if she knew that it would have automatically have lead to divorce? I have a hunch she probably thought even if you found out there would be no consequences to her and you would forgive her anyway so she really had nothing to lose.
> 
> If the roles had been reversed do you honestly think she would have been acting like you?
> ...


Oh believe me, I know that is part of the problem. The nice guy syndrome was definitely an issue, and I think still is. That is one of the things I am dealing with. Because yes, no matter how I try and explain the gravity of what she did, I don't believe she truly respects that I almost left her when I found out, that I still could. I think she is the type of person that unless I did actually leave, I don't think she will believe I would. But I can't justify taking that drastic of a step in my mind when I do believe she wants R, she just doesn't understand or is ready to commit to what that requires on her part.

And no, there is no way in hell she would have accepted the same thing from me. She would have left me, no doubt. But again, when I bring that up (and I have several times) she gives me a shrug and says she just can't picture it because she knows I would never do something like that. I even tried to phrase it as how would she feel if either of our two boys had their future wives do this to them...and she gave a totally blank look like I wasn't even speaking English. No reaction, what-so-ever.

As for the STD's I am lucky that I do know for a fact that every time it stopped short of intercourse (oral or otherwise) though it came damn close multiple times, and they had finally made actual plans for a hotel when he did something that pissed her off and she ended it. I know this for a fact because she didn't clear out any of her texts, so I read EVERYTHING between them. This is the one sliver of good news and the one thing that prevented me from just taking the kids and leaving. If she had slept with him, I know I am not they type of person to ever forgive that. I would have left.

The downside is that BECAUSE she didn't fully consummate their affair, nothing I have said seems to make a dent in her belief that it wasn't that bad. That it would have been so much worse if she had slept with him, that I should give her credit for fighting it as hard as she did because most women would have given in.


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## SanityOnHold (Jun 24, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> There is a very good write up that someone did in the form of a list of things that a WS needs to know about what they have to do for recovery can happen. I'm hoping that someone who reads this has the link it to and will post it for the OP.


I'd love to see that. She won't see a counselor, but I might get her to read something like that. Maybe, maybe not. She has a really bad habit of postponing reading things I ask her to and getting all ticked off if I push her to get around to it. She has read a couple of articles I sent her, but nothing has really seemed to have had that much of an affect.


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## whatslovegottodowithit? (Jan 6, 2013)

SanityOnHold said:


> I'd love to see that. She won't see a counselor, but I might get her to read something like that. Maybe, maybe not. She has a really bad habit of postponing reading things I ask her to and getting all ticked off if I push her to get around to it. She has read a couple of articles I sent her, but nothing has really seemed to have had that much of an affect.


This...?

Originally Posted by chapparal:

Re: Trying to work marriage out, but seems one-sided. Need perspective please. 

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Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly! 
__________________
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

whatslovegottodowithit? said:


> This...?
> 
> Originally Posted by chapparal:
> 
> ...


Yep that. Thanks for posting!!!!!


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

Cut and paste that understanding your betrayed spouse post into a word document and give it to your wife. Don't let her know you are posting here.

You describe that she cheated and only ended it because of the other guy, not because of her love for you.

What is the reason she cheated to begin with? And what has changed since then? My point being, it seems that she always loved you and still does, feels comfortable in your marriage but, I am guessing here, she is not "in love" with you, or fell out of love with you? So what is going to be different the next time some guy comes along and does what this one did? 

Even after the affair fell apart, she kind of fished for the other guy for quite a while. Well, it didn't work out, so now she is back with you. You, I guess, are good enough if there isn't something better available. I'm not trying to be mean, but fill in some of the blanks. Is she all in on the marriage, is she "all in" to being "in love" with you, or is she just back to where she was before the affair started? What personal growth or realizations has she had that will prevent a future affair?


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

the guy said:


> I'm wired different then most but bending my old lady over my knee and spanking her worked for me and her.


the guy, you are a true classic. I may give this a try next time I trigger. If I need bail money, can I call you?


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

SanityOnHold said:


> I'd love to see that. She won't see a counselor, but I might get her to read something like that. Maybe, maybe not. She has a really bad habit of postponing reading things I ask her to and getting all ticked off if I push her to get around to it. She has read a couple of articles I sent her, but nothing has really seemed to have had that much of an affect.


Somebody posted about "consequences."

Really, she carried on with another guy for what, the better part of a year she was pining away for him (maybe still is), and she can't be bothered reading something you ask her to?

I know it may seem counter to common sense, given that she wants to reconcile, but you need to give her a wake-up call so she steps up. She is just biding time, and you may not see it as such, but to me it looks like she is walking all over you with this lousy attitude of hers, just going through the motions.

Think about it, if her reading something is important to you, why wouldn't she read it? Regardless of the cheating, regardless of what you are asking her to read. If you asked her to read the Declaration of Independence, and you told her it was really important to you, don't you think she should read it? 

So given that this was all brought about by her actions, and she can obviously see how much you are struggling with it, are you telling me she doesn't even have that much love or respect for you or how you feel that she won't even bother to read a few pages of how she could help you heal from her hurtful behavior?

Despite her wanting to reconcile, I can't help but feel you are in a bad place in this marriage.

What ever happened to the other guy? Did you let his wife know what he's been up to, or is other guy's wife still in the dark?


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

OP I hope you are able to manage a successful start to a true R. However I have the feeling that is not heading in the right direction. 

If your wife truly regretted her affair and really wanted the marriage... Her actions would support her words. 

Is this her first affair? 

I do not see that she is remorseful or dedicated to the marriage. She has all the power in your relationship. You need to right that balance. 

Good luck
WD
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

OP,
She broke her boundaries, and there are no consequences.
You can't force her to feel remorse if she doesn't, but you can insist on counseling. Of course you have to be willing to walk out the door, too. Would you be willing to tell her counseling or separation?
I do completely agree that she cannot demand you just get over it and move on. You have every right, heck, every need to ask and re-ask any question that enters your mind. This isn't saying beat her up about it, but re-building trust in a relationship is difficult and you are giving her the tools to dictate how that trust is going to be re-built.
Boundaries.


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## whatslovegottodowithit? (Jan 6, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Yep that. Thanks for posting!!!!!



_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

SanityOnHold said:


> *How do I convey that even though I may be changing for the better (for myself), that my wife needs to do a number of things as well? (Without driving her away by making her feel controlled or forced?)*


I think this sums up your beta male reaction to her cheating fairly well.

A BS shouldn't worry about driving their WS away by explaining their expectations of remorse. The *WS* should be worried about losing *their* spouse for cheating. 

Until you get to that point, you will be stuck in false R limbo and there's a much better chance that she will cheat again.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

If she's absolutely refusing counseling then you need to forego any flavor of the 180 and just divorce her.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

I posted this in a different thread a few days ago...



GusPolinski said:


> The 180 is most effectively used when the primary goal is for the BS (i.e. "betrayed spouse"; in this case, you) to detach from his or her WS (i.e. "wayward spouse"; in this case, your wife). A side effect that is often seen, however, is that the WS begins to hit rock bottom and then truly realize that he or she has risked for the sake of some sexual or emotional gratification received outside of the marriage.
> 
> Is the 180 passive-aggressive? To a degree, yes. But the point is for the BS to get to a place where he or she is largely indifferent about the daily goings-on of the WS.
> 
> Make no mistake -- the effectiveness of the 180 w/ respect to successfully bringing a wayward back into the marriage is somewhat situational and, as such, will not always have that desired effect. Given the background that you've provided, however, it may very well work for you... But only if used properly. Don't do a [email protected]$$ed 180, because that will backfire damn near every time.


Keep ^this in mind. As long as she's unwilling to discuss the affair (including answering any questions that you may have regarding details, timeline, etc), take ownership of her decision to engage in an affair, commit to 100% transparency going forward, enter counseling, etc, she's not displaying any real commitment to either you or your marriage.

Pulling a 180 may very well work for you, but only if properly employed. Don't [email protected]$$ it.

Also consider asking her to read this book...

http://www.amazon.com/Help-Your-Spouse-Heal-Affair/dp/145055332X

As shown at the above link, the book is available from Amazon in both paperback and e-book (Kindle) format. It is also available for free in PDF format at the author's website...

http://www.lindajmacdonald.com/how_to_help_11-06-10_final_pdf-.pdf

Good luck.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

(this is all just opinion)

I had/have some of the same feelings as you about letter her off the hook to soon, or too easily. We talked about this in MC, and the counselor suggested that I did was worried my wife would somehow forget how badly she'd hurt me. Wife says that's not likely, but she has shown remorse all along.

I've resorted to periodically telling her just what thoughts the whole sordid mess brings on in my head. The terrible images, disgust, revulsion, and much more. I've gone overboard a lot with yelling and general storming around, but I'm sure I've got my point across.

My point is not to overthink it, but react how you feel appropriate. "Damn the torpedoes" type thinking. Now is not the time to worry about her, she sure didn't invest much time worrying about you.

Like someone suggested, if you want to go to MC with her, she should have no option to refuse. That is very basic stuff, possibly mandatory.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I can't take credit for the wayward spouse instructions but I have posted it quite a few times. It has worked for a lot of couples.

The instructions should be printed off and read together with each point discussed between the two of you. Her reaction to the points made need to be closely monitored by you to see if she is getting it or just paying lip service.

The rate you are going is just what is expected as a plan B. You are her second choice. If you don't get ahead of this, she will do this again, 100% guaranteed.

You need to get the two books linked to below, they can also be downloaded at amazon.com. Also, google NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY. You can find this as a free download or buy the book. Read a bit of it to see if it applies to you.

Reading the mmslp book linked to below is the most important thing you can do. Your big problem is she has lost respect and thus attraction for you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sanity,
What you really need to do is:
1. Increase your self respect
2. Change the dynamic with your wife to crease her respect for you


1. Questions 
- How often do you exercise?
- Are you fit muscular, fit but thin or somewhat fat?
- How often do you apologize to your wife?
- How often does your wife speak to you as if you are a subordinate at work? 


QUOTE=SanityOnHold;9342530]I'm trying to come up with a modified 180 plan because a number of the points seem to be about bringing a WS back to you or to be used kind of as a last ditch effort when all else fails. Neither of which are really my situation. My wife started having an affair late last summer right at our 15 year anniversary. She physically ended it after a couple months (because he started to be a jerk, NOT because she realized what she was doing was wrong) but kind of kept thinking about him and wanting him all the way through this spring and didn't fully go NC (random texts and reaching out to him through all that time even though they never saw each other.)until late March. That is when I found out and confronted her. 

So I’ve known for about 2 months now, and things are both better and not. They are better because she is finally releasing her emotions for the AP and she tries to “show” she is sorry and she regrets it, but things are not really better because a large enough chunk of what she does or says is still rationalization, rug-sweeping, and just wanting “to move on”. She is a highly defensive, assertive, and prideful woman, so what she does not do is verbally apologize, she does not break down and really own what she has done, and she makes very little attempt to try and really understand my pain or figure out what I need from her. She absolutely refuses to go to any counseling because she doesn’t believe in therapy and doesn’t want to re-live what she did with yet another person. (There is also a healthy dose of subconscious fear in there whether she wants to admit it or not.) Personally, I am going to go to IC. My first appointment set up for next week. She would be willing to read a book, but I couldn’t find one on amazon that I would be happy with her reading. The negative reviews of many of the most highly recommended sound like they also push that the BS shares responsibility for the affair. I own that there were things she needed from me (mainly communication) that I should have been better about, but I take no responsibility for her choice of actions.

So I am still in limbo. She really wants our marriage to work, she loves me and does NOT want a D. But she also just wants to just forget it and move on. She gets really frustrated and cannot understand how I can make love to her, and then the next afternoon have a depressed mood swing. She can’t/won’t place herself in my shoes because, as she puts it: “I know you would never do that, so I can’t imagine it.” That is what I have learned, she is really still stuck in this place of rationalizing what happened instead of owning it and truly apologizing, and she just wants to move on without digging into understanding my pain and figuring out what I need from her to help me move forward (beyond more sex that is.) So I am seriously considering embarking on the 180 plan, but only the portion that makes sense.

All the stuff about ignoring your spouse and not being as communicative, etc. that won’t help. Her “Love Language” is Communication. So things like not texting her, calling her, reaching out to her, or pulling back on conversations, will only push her away. Also, I want to have dates, if we are really trying to reconnect with each other, things like that ARE important I think. So I’m looking mostly into just the bullet points about finding happiness for me. Which leads me to two questions maybe people have experience with:

*Question 1 *
How do I find that balance of doing this for me, but not feeling like I’m just letting her off the hook? I have a hard time starting this process because I think she will take these changes in me as a sign everything is ok and I’m all good, and then I don’t feel like she will EVER make the effort to truly understand my pain and what she did and truly apologize for it and make the effort to find out what SHE can do for ME to make amends for the hell she is putting me through. I know that is the anger talking, but there is truth in there as well. I know finding happiness in myself is probably the best possible plan, but I also don’t know if it is possible for me to truly heal and R without feeling more remorse from her and more of an effort on her part to help me through this. 

*Question 2*
No matter what I do, whether I show happiness around her or not, I have to do some things for my personal growth and happiness. What are some specific recommendations for becoming happy as an individual again when for 15 years your wife and family has been the center of your world and happiness? I just, I can’t see anything that will make me feel happy and confidant and like I’m moving on for myself. I don’t know how to push myself to find happiness outside of my busy life between work and two little boys at home. 

FYI – I am usually pretty busy, so I mean no disrespect if I’m only able to check in/respond on this thread once or twice a day.[/QUOTE]


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## SanityOnHold (Jun 24, 2014)

Hi everyone, been kind of closed off the last couple of days, but I'm catching up. Some tough love in there, but I have no issues reading any of it, and appreciate all of the comments that everyone has made. Let me try and catch up and answer some specifics.

@Just_Joe

According to her, she never stopped loving me, she never loved him, but she just could not control her attraction. (Of course I told her that if that is she thinks what she had for me is love she could keep it.) They guy was a smooth talker to be sure, he was confidant and younger (single) and he pulled the whole I'm a bad-boy player but you bring out the soft-side routine in me. She fell for it hook, line, and sinker. She told me that even though she always thought she was happy with me and our marriage, being with him just made her excited and that she could talk to him and he always had a response for everything. I am a quieter man by nature. 

He is pretty much out of the picture, has been for a while. She hasn't seen him since winter, and they haven't messaged each other for several months. Though there could conceivably be instances where they are in the same place in the future.

I agree with you totally about her reading what I need her to. It is a sign of disrespect. I am pushing her this week to read both the one set of instructions included in this thread as well as the pdf by GusP. I am now being much more proactive in making her do what I need her to do to understand where I am am mentally and what I need from her.

Do I believe she regrets it, yeah, but she sucks at showing remorse. Also, because she never ended up actually sleeping with him she does not think it is that bad. While technically she might be correct, she just doesn't get it. I have explained several times, but she has this weird missing link in her brain that doesn't make the connection that intent can be almost as bad as the deed. The only difference is that since she didn't, that is why I did not just leave immediately.

@workindad

Yes, this is her first. From everything I've read, I am pretty confidant about this. The way I am currently seeing it. She is remorseful, but not as much as she could be. Since she didn't end up consummating the affair and she says she never fell in love with him, she doesn't see it as being as bad as I see it. She is also just very stubborn and prideful. I think she thinks I should just believe and know how remorseful she is without her needing to tell me.

@pluto2

I have considered demanding counseling...but I haven't for the very reason you mentioned. I'd have to be willing to follow through and walk away if she didn't. Since she is so against it, I am not at that point. I'm trying to do this without counseling, because the other thing about counseling is that if you are dead set against it and don't want to be there, it is hard to get anything out of it. If there isn't improvement in the coming months, I may get to that point.

@badmemory

Hard to argue with your point there.

@GusP

Counseling really is a sticky issue. She has talked about some of it with me, unwillingly, but she has. But take full ownership of how bad it really was? No.

I am insisting that she read both that Guidelines posted and the book you recommended. I read it and yes, it is 100% right down the line with how I feel and what i need. We are incredibly busy this weekend, but I am insisting that she read both of those and make that her top priority next week.

@Forest

As others have pointed out, I am way too beta. It's a lifelong issue, and a hard aspect to change of myself. I feel bad if I keep punishing her and I back off. But at the same time, yeah, I keep feeling this need to shove what she did to me in front of her face.

@chaparral

I will follow your guidance, there is some good stuff in there. I didn't think about talking about the Instructions with her, but that might be a good idea. You're right about the "respect" issue. She keeps telling me that she respects me, I keep telling her that everything she has done proves that she does not.

@MEM

Agree with your points. I am trying to get there, just don't know how. The depression is so large, it is really hard working out of it right now to figure out how to change and develop who I am.

To answer your 4 questions.

1/2 - I am actually a pretty fit guy for my age. I'm a very healthy weight and a moderately good looking guy.
3 - Too damn much. Yes, I say sorry at the drop of a hat, and she never does.
4 - Whenever she is mad, though she does that with EVERYBODY


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## SanityOnHold (Jun 24, 2014)

One other thing I am really struggling with is how to marry both of these two concepts that almost seem at odds with one another. Get back my "man card" find a way to be happy for myself...but insist she always be there for me when I am down, recognize all my inevitable moods, and support me and apologize often as I go through this...that itself seems kind of weak and beta. It's a mess of emotions and directions to try and straighten out.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

SanityOnHold said:


> One other thing I am really struggling with is how to marry both of these two concepts that almost seem at odds with one another. Get back my "man card" find a way to be happy for myself...but insist she always be there for me when I am down, recognize all my inevitable moods, and support me and apologize often as I go through this...that itself seems kind of weak and beta. It's a mess of emotions and directions to try and straighten out.


Dude, she tore you down, and if you need her help to build yourself back up, then so be it. Honestly, she should be _ecstatic_ to even have the chance to do it.

Don't read too much into the alpha/beta stuff. Yeah, it's very real stuff, and it's very important to find the right balance. Few guys are either 100% alpha or beta, and a good husband will have the right mix of characteristics of both.

Have you read either "The Married Man Sex Life Primer" or "No More Mister Nice Guy" (commonly referred to here as MMSLP and NMMNG)? Here are a couple of links...

The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay: 9781460981733: Amazon.com: Books

No More Mr Nice Guy: Robert A. Glover: 9780762415335: Amazon.com: Books


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

SanityOnHold said:


> I'd love to see that. She won't see a counselor, but I might get her to read something like that. Maybe, maybe not. She has a really bad habit of postponing reading things I ask her to and getting all ticked off if I push her to get around to it. She has read a couple of articles I sent her, but nothing has really seemed to have had that much of an affect.


Go to MC on your own. Make the appointment, tell her you are going and it would be great if she goes. 

My wife missed my first three appointments on the 4th as I walked at the door she grabbed her purse and got in the car. 

You can be a nice guy but you have to be an Alpha and take charge. Do not push her to go she will go if she wants to work things out. I also found my wife would pick up a book and read it when I was not there.


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## SanityOnHold (Jun 24, 2014)

@GusP

Ordered both, thank you.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## SanityOnHold (Jun 24, 2014)

@mahike

I am. First appointment is set for this week and she knows that I am going.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

SanityOnHold said:


> I agree with you totally about her reading what I need her to. It is a sign of disrespect. *I am pushing her this week to read both the one set of instructions included in this thread as well as the pdf by GusP*. I am now being much more proactive in making her do what I need her to do to understand where I am am mentally and what I need from her.


This is your problem in a nutshell.

I am a big believer in "say something once, then don't say it again."

Short story: My first son was about 3 years old, we were at a family barbecue at my uncle's house, I was holding a burger in one hand and a beer in the other, chatting with my brother when my son discovered how fun it was to squirt the backyard garden hose. After he did it once, I said, "Stop it." He completely ignores me, 30 seconds later he does it again, I say "stop it" but this time a little more forcefully. It happens a third time, I put down my burger and my beer, and turn to him. He drops the hose and runs away. My brother laughs and says to me, "he knew exactly how far he could push you."

Your wife knows exactly how far she can push you.

My wife felt like I had one foot out the door for the first six months at least. Truth is, I did, so I didn't have to fake it. You should try it.

Tell her once you expect her to read it TODAY. Tomorrow morning, if she hasn't read it, pack up her stuff in black trash bags and put them by the front door and offer to call her a cab.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

SanityOnHold said:


> One other thing I am really struggling with is *how to marry both of these two concepts that almost seem at odds with one another.* Get back my "man card" find a way to be happy for myself...but insist she always be there for me when I am down, recognize all my inevitable moods, and support me and apologize often as I go through this...that itself seems kind of weak and beta. It's a mess of emotions and directions to try and straighten out.


Here are the two concepts you should be trying to marry that almost seem at odds with one another:

1. She SAYS she loves and respects you.

2. She DOES nothing to help you heal, even when you have practically begged her for it.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

SanityOnHold said:


> a large enough chunk of what she does or says is still rationalization, rug-sweeping, and just wanting “to move on”. *She is a highly defensive, assertive, and prideful woman*, so *what she does not do is verbally apologize*, *she does not ... own what she has done*, and *she makes very little attempt to try and really understand my pain or figure out what I need from her*. *She absolutely refuses to go to any counseling*
> 
> *She really wants our marriage to work, she loves me* and does NOT want a D. But she also just wants to just forget it and move on. She gets really frustrated and cannot understand how I can make love to her, and then the next afternoon have a depressed mood swing. *She can’t/won’t place herself in my shoes* because, as she puts it: “I know you would never do that, so I can’t imagine it.” That is what I have learned, she is really still stuck in this place of rationalizing what happened instead of owning it and truly apologizing, and *she just wants to move on without digging into understanding my pain and figuring out what I need from her to help me* move forward (beyond more sex that is.) So I am seriously considering embarking on the 180 plan, but only the portion that makes sense.
> 
> All the stuff about ignoring your spouse and not being as communicative, etc. that won’t help. Her “Love Language” is Communication. So *things like not texting her, calling her, reaching out to her, or pulling back on conversations, will only push her away*. Also, I want to have dates, if we are really trying to reconnect with each other, things like that ARE important I think.


It's not her fault, she is defensive, assertive and prideful and apparently has no common courtesy, like saying she is sorry when she has done something wrong. She doesn't need to make excuses for herself, you make them for her.

Is sex how she controlled you in the past, for example, when you wanted to go to the ballgame and she wanted to go shopping, would she just sex you up a little and get you to do what she wants? Is she really that hot or that good? This must be so frustrating for her that the sexing is not doing the trick this time.

One major disagreement you have with her is how big a deal her cheating was. You imply that she doesn't even think it's cheating. I don't believe she is being sincere, I think she is just taking that stance to make you doubt yourself. Everyone who has read what you posted here thinks it's a big deal, every single one, I guarantee it. Next time she tells you it's not a big deal, tell her this: OK, you think it's not a big deal and I think it is. Let's tell all of our family and friends about what you've done, heck, let's post it on facebook, like a poll, and let everyone we know vote on whether they think it's a big deal or not.

I feel bad for you man.


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## SanityOnHold (Jun 24, 2014)

I appreciate the time and effort you are taking with me Joe. It's tough to digest, somethings feel a bit strong, but at the same time, I do understand all the points you are making. You are being very thorough in your analysis of what I am saying and very detailed in your responses. Understand though, my intention was not to make excuses, just to layout her personality and why that has hindered the R process so far. The fact that she is these things is not an excuse, I understand that. I understand that her personality in this HAS to change or things will not work out. I cannot move forward until she is on the same page as me and is ready to meet my needs.

But you are absolutely correct in that I am having a very hard time being more assertive about getting her to that point, as well as just being more assertive in general. I have NOT been pushing her like I should have. I have NOT made it clear that a future for us is not guaranteed right now. I have NOT set boundaries at all (let alone make sure the are enforced.)

You are also correct that my biggest disagreement with her (and this is a talk I am going to have with her VERY soon) is the disparity in what we feel about how bad it was. Yes, she does consider what she did cheating, but that it wasn't nearly as bad as it could have been. She is so focused on what she didn't do (sex) and what she didn't feel (love for him) that she is downplaying everything that she DID do and DID feel, both while with him, and for many months after. 

I know it sounds like I am still rolling over on her too easily...and I am. But the advice from you and others (and I just started to read the NMMNG book tonight) are getting me (albeit slowly) in a better place to start addressing all this more properly.

I was going to ask her tonight if she had started to read the book yet, but she beat me to it after we got the kids to bed. She came right out and apologized for not having started to read it yet, but she is going to start reading it (I loaded it onto her kindle) as soon as she is done getting ready for bed. It doesn't matter to me if she finishes everything by the end of tomorrow, in fact, I'd rather she didn't. I want her to read it slowly and digest everything and not just blow through it. But I did tell her to finish half tomorrow and the other half on Wednesday.

Oh, and as for sex in the past, no she has never tried to control me with sex. We've been on mostly equal footing in that department for a number of years. Is wasn't for the first five or so years until I put my foot down and said things needed to change, and over time they did until we reached a point we were both happy with what we had going on (well, or so I thought I guess.)


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

My wife was a prolific writer during her affair. Wrote hundreds if not thousands of emails to the other guy, and not just short one-liners, whole stories about what they'd like to do to each other. She did it late at night, I'd see her up doing it and tell her to come to bed, and she would tell me she was catching up with what her friends and family were up to on facebook.

Very early on after my initial confrontation, but after the initial shock had passed, maybe a week or so in, my wife didn't do something I had expected her to do. I forget what it was. But I remember she told me she was too tired and had been too busy to get to it. It wasn't something big, because I can't even remember what it is now, but I do remember exploding on her over it. "You always had time to write F-me stories to the other guy, and you couldn't find 5 f'ing minutes to do this other thing for me? How many hours if not days did you waste ... blah blah blah ... ." After that, even to this day, I don't hear about "I'm too tired" or "I was too busy" about anything even though I would be OK with it now and even tell her it's OK if she's too tired or too busy.

I assume your wife also always had plenty of time for the other guy, hours spent talking to him, and then after it ended and even after you found out, hours looking him up and chasing after him and pining away for him. She loves you, she doesn't love him, but yet she can't even find an hour or two to read some short article or book. Actions speak louder than words.

My wife is the polar opposite of yours as far as personality goes. She never had trouble apologizing if she was wrong. After the initial confrontation, she never tried to minimize what she did. 

I was taught as a child to admit if you were wrong and to apologize for what you did. My parents would make my siblings and I apologize to each other or to our friends or class mates. 

There was another poster here recently who also said his wife never apologized for anything. Maybe it's more common than I thought, maybe I just avoid people like that in my life and that's why I don't seem to know any.

Not being able to apologize just seems to me to be a sign of someone with some other deep type of personality problem. I'm no psychologist, but there's got to be some type of issue with an adult woman who can never say "I'm sorry."

Our stories are a little bit similar in that my wife never was able to meet the other guy in person for sex, but to me they "met" on the internet and on the phone and they did do sexual stuff, so I do consider it a physical affair. My wife also says she was never in love, it was all just a fantasy, etc., though she knows I don't believe it. My wife seemed to be able to give the other guy up easier than yours, though the circumstances at the time the affairs were discovered may be different enough to account for that, my wife had been doing it for 3 years already at that time and I think the whole thing was starting to die a natural death anyway.

It's what your wife did after she was caught by you that bothers me most. She didn't end it, even though she supposedly didn't love the guy, and she basically tells you she knows you're not going anywhere, that you would never cheat, and to me she implies that she thinks you would never leave the marriage no matter how badly she behaves, so she feels safe doing whatever she wants to you, in my opinion, being very hurtful in her cavalier response and attitude to how much pain you are in.

I hope you find your way to a better place soon.


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## SanityOnHold (Jun 24, 2014)

Thanks for sharing your story with me, that does actually help me. I hadn't thought of her usage of time in quite that way. You are right, the amount of time she spent talking to him and texting him, the amount of time she spent thinking about him nearly every day for months, adds fuel to the fire in my arsenal on how to make sure she starts respecting my needs starting right now. And yeah, she definitely has issues she needs to deal with, but you can't force someone to get therapy when they are that dead set against it. I have seen several family members and people I know pushed into it and it didn't help any of them.

There has been one mis-communication somewhere, I'll need to go back through what I wrote and see if I mis-typed something. I only found out recently, after she had totally stopped seeing or talking to him, so she has not contacted him at all since i found out. Though it wasn't until I found out and confronted her that she seems to have finally been shocked into starting to let him go from an emotional standpoint, though NO WAY do I believe she fully has yet.

Also, I have told her in no uncertain terms that this is her one and only second chance, that she will not get another no matter how small of an act of betrayal she makes with another man. But what I have not done, as you have very accurately pointed out, is make any real effort to set any other sort of boundaries on what she needs to do moving forward for me and I haven't applied any pressure or conveyed any consequences if she is unable to give me what I need.


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