# End Game



## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Marriage began easily enough, feelings of love and attraction empowered me and it was nice road to walk. Soon concerns with school and children arrived, and time became sparse between myself and my wife. However, the road was familiar to me and comfortable so I walked on. Then the storms came, deaths in the family, moves, starting a new business etc. At this point I wasn't even sure I was even on the right path anymore, but only a fool changes his direction while walking at night. Unfortunately, day hasn't come. I continue to walk, but the trail is cold and foreign now. My companion is now a stranger. I would like to say that I still love her, but I don't. I know our love has died between us. I am now her least priority, even Facebook has become more important than I am to her. She has energy for "friends" and their problems, but at the end of the day no real energy or time for me. 
I know my middle game is through, but how does one take the next step. Do you just tell her "Honey, this isn't working at all. I want out?" I know you just don't randomly serve her papers. Do you save some money on the side or setup another residence? Do you tell her we can live together until the house sells as glorified room mates, as there isn't any violence between us, only animosity. Do you reach down into that empty space and forgive one more time, even though there isn't anything left inside of you. I have prayed and prayed with no avail. I have biblical reasons to end this relationship, but I have opted to try to forgive. I am sorry, but somethings are difficult to forgive. I have stayed because I don't know how the hell do you tell your kids you gave up on their family? I was given an ultimatum last November by my wife to leave my practice if I truly wanted our marriage to continue. My partner agreed to buy out my share in the practice, but I opted not to, as now more than ever, I need some financial stability. I feel torn and conflicted. I feel separate from God, and have stopped attending church. I have spent the last 10 years of my life building a medical practice and have sacrificed myself socially to do this. I have lots of acquaintances, but almost no real friends. My only real hobby has been martial arts, because when you hurt it gives you a venue to direct the pain. I am almost forty, smart, industrious, very fit, and lonely as hell. I refuse to cheat on my wife, as I value honor above happiness, but how friggin much is enough? Or do I just press on and continue to walk alone in the night. I have just about everything I need in this life with the exception of true love, and I want like hell to have that again. On paper it's perfect, in reality it's pathetic. How do I begin my endgame with this marriage? Anyone out there who has been through this I need your help and your prayers. Mine aren't working.


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## overitnolove (Dec 5, 2008)

Hi Lastinline.

Firstly, you need to sit her down and tel her how you feel about therelationship--be blatently honest, not nasty, but honest... By the sounds of things, she'l find it a relief.

I don't suggest saying it is over because in my experience, it aint over till its over.

My experience in all of this has taught me the following:

-Saying it out loud is only the first in many steps ahead of you.
-You can repair it but first you both need to get all of the anger and resentment off your chests.
-From there you both need to go to marriage councelling pronto.
-It might still end in divorce, it might not, but it is important that you both go through the motions so when/if you make the choice you feel comfortable dong so, not angry about it, not flustered ... you need to resolve ALL of the negative feeling towards the relationship before you can make a decision like the one you are anticipating.
-If you were once tryly in love then you CAN fix it. Sometimes it takes the advent of demise for things to turn around.

How long have you been feeling like this? Did you W first dish the negaitive feelings regarding intimicy, or was it you? Why? For how long? Are you still sleeping in the same room?


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

You are not walking in the dark alone, you _know_ that, it just feels that way at times and sometimes for a long time.

You two have built up resentment and anger, turned your backs to one another over time to quell the pain and frustration.

Why did your wife ask you to get out of your partnership practice?
She is angry at you because you made a choice she obviously does not understand and feels less important than your financial situation. Why did she give you a ultimatum, what is behind the ultimatum?

You two can't talk without getting ALL your issues on the table, and if you want your marriage to last, you need to essentially make her and you top priority. You are lucky she is on Facebook and is at least somewhat religious, it may be keeping her from an affair, who knows?


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

I have told her how I feel and what I need. She says there "isn't anything left" for her to give. She is too tired from taking care of kids all day. She's too tired. I am the one up at 4 or 4:30 every morning. I am the one that gets home at 7 every night. I understand staying at home may have its trials, but so does tending to injured people all day. Her job is not more friggin difficult than mine. As an aside, our kids are the only part of our relationship that works. Our kids are stable, productive, and generally happy. We have 2 in high school, 1 in junior high, 2 in elementary school, and another at home. They are polite, good students, and generally helpful. I stay largely because I am afraid she would be given custody of my younger kids, and I do not feel that she is fit to properly raise them. I know what you are thinking, 6 kids poor woman. However, I am a very involved Dad, and I work a lot around the house. I resent it, but I do it. She doesn't do much in my absence. Heavy cleaning is saved for Saturdays as is yard work. She typically spends her morning at the gym, and may go somewhere for lunch with her lady friends. She sometimes will cook dinner, and she is always doing laundry, but the is a huge disparity between what we each contribute in terms of work. We have tried counseling. Either her counselor or her friend's are giving her poor advice. From the changes I have seen, I think the general take was put distance between your life and his so he begins to appreciate you more. This really isn't working as attention and affection are hugely important to me in our relationship, and this is all I want back. We have even gone together, but she goes on a tangent about every "misdeed" I have ever committed. My crimes are not all that serious. I got a couple of dogs. I took a job in a place we could afford to buy a house and then started a clinic/clinics there as I had built up my reputation here. I work too long. The last one is legit, but I am trying to make my business work, and there isn't much to come home to aside from my kids. I spend too much money. This also is legit, but I work my butt of and she largely neglects me, so toys ease the pain. She also feels Tae Kwon Do is more important than she is. False, but it keeps me from friggin drinking, or doing something equally destructive. Her crimes against me...hmm let me think, oh now I remember, she doesn't love me. Just that, and a neighbors wife coming to my clinic on a rainy day and telling me to look at phone records as she thinks my wife is having an affair with her husband. I have felt neglected like this for ten years. She has been aware of it for less than 2. Love is patient. My wife pulled away after the birth of our first child. She became a mom and stopped being a wife. However, at that time, I had a lot to occupy me, school and rotations. Then it was work. However, a decade or so ago, I looked up from my millstone and noticed I was alone. We still sleep in the same room when she is home, and although she will never initiate sex, I can largely "have it" when ever I want to sleep with a fish. There isn't any affection, no kissing or talking anymore. No pre-game anything, just straight to the point and done. Ironically, though she still enjoys the act if not necessarily her partner. I guess she still appreciates my body. Small consolation. The jackass she cheated with "allegedly" is not even good looking or fit. I would guess he must be more sensitive than I am, except for the fact he was willing to cheat of his friggin wife and family. Wow, you say I have to resolve all of my negative feelings, just writing this stuff upsets me. No, I think it's over, unless we can somehow rekindle our love.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

She felt I could do better financially elsewhere. That may be true, but it is not an informed/well thought out decision on her part. I would have to start from scratch, and probably take a 50K pay cut. It would also be several years if all went well, before I would be invited to be a partner in this mystery practice. She said we could move and start again. This works for me. I would like to go back to the midwest, but she wants to go home to Santa Barbara. So no agreement there. We could afford S.B. if she started to work on her masters degree and positioned herself to start a career in 4 or so years. Won't do that either, because it would be work and sacrifice on her part. I realize she needs to be my top priority, but honestly different people have different ways of showing love. I show love largely through works. I bust my hump for my family. It's what I was taught. It's what I do, and sadly it doesn't resonate well with her. My family is my top priority. God as my witness, almost anyone else would have left her years ago. As for your last point, Facebook sucks. It is a time sap, and keeps your from interacting with the people that really matter in your life.


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

Could not agree more with you regarding Facebook. 

I am not going to be in a debate about whether you work harder than she. THAT is NOT the issue here. 

Regardless of who works _harder_, if a wife is not supportive and the "assist" to a dynamic husband career _something_ is going to suffer. Often a wife STOPS being supportive because she does not understand or she isn't getting many of her needs for feeling IMPORTANT to a man, the signals are lost somewhere. Sometimes the signals get lost because some sort of issues have not been addressed, and bam, the blaming, the hostility, the silences, the fights, and the retaliatory stuff starts. It can become a holy mess and if NOT resolved someone has an affair, things further deteriorate, and divorce is the result. Things don't deteriorate much more than an affair. You know that, you are there.

You repeatedly talk of money, of financial need, of success. If I were to ask your wife it would be 'he's never there', 'he's always distracted', 'I always come second'. Likely it is not that counseling said she was to "separate more" from you, but more likely she needed to "make her own life" separate from you, because with a highly dynamic career often the other partner needs to find something outside of childrearing and homemaking to feel fulfilled.

The problem is, often a woman goes that direction, and then other men appear, because she starts feeling more confident, and positive, and then "bam" an affair happens. I am sure it was NOT a part of her plan, and she did NOT want to have an affair, there was a reason. Not a "fault" but a reason, a trigger to it. If something were not triggering it, it would not happen. That does not make her right, but BOTH partners have responsibilities, and if a partner is not getting the message they are treasured, loved, respected, and IMPORTANT enough for you to pay attention to...then sometimes they will wander. Some spouses have affairs when they have already disengaged from the marriage...made a choice before filing for divorce BECAUSE a divorce may be BAD for say, the kids, and the spouse cannot broach divorce, and slips into the affair. 

You state you don't want her to have the younger kids in a custody battle, but then you say your kids are great...although you are likely a good father, your wife is probably a very good mother; it is just that you are angry about her affair and are finding fault. You also don't want your kids to possibly have a step father at some point. 

Most men are easy to please. They want respect, love, sex, and to feel needed and wanted, attractive to their mate. 

They want to make money to bring home (slay the dragons) and be appreciated for what they do (told thank you and shown how much they are appreciated with a peaceful home and happy wife - she doesn't have to be happy, but in control of her emotions somewhat, and able to approach her man when the timing is right, if something is "off" at home with the kids, house, cars, etc . 

Women have needs too, but they more often need regular attention and not to feel they are on the back burner. They want to be noticed that they are contributing, especially with homemaking and childrearing, as those do not bring down a HUGE paycheck like men have to reward their hard work. A woman's paycheck comes when she has her children out of the nest and successful; and if the kids are not successful, who does EVERYONE look at: MOM, Mom must have done something wrong.

When partners start to feel anger and resentment, both begin to give less and less and in response *it escalates until something happens*, one of the partners "breaks" and finds something else: drugs, a lover, a divorce lawyer, drinking, excessive working and silence, withholding of self. It happens ALL the time. You are experiencing that.

If you respect your children you will try a step further, you will figure out how to forgive her, learn from all mistakes and shortcomings. You are young, you have the lives of FIVE children at stake. You two need to get it all on the table. 

If the counseling seemed off, then find another counselor. Make it a priority. If she will not go, then you go and figure out what your next step is. You must find a way, you owe it to your children if no one else. 

IF you cannot see past getting beyond the affair and figure it all out for what it was, then of course, move on. But I will assure you it will be far harder than what you are in now, UNLESS you two are able to be friends in a split; I doubt that is going to happen as you have HUGE financial issues at stake.


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

I could have been your wife. My DH has a VERY dynamic, high power, and very stressful job that causes him to be GONE from our home 18-22 days a month. At year 5-6 of our early marriage, he was also an officer in the Guard...not in the town we lived in, but had to FLY to that SECOND career job for an additional 3-4 days a month. So he was GONE all except 8-9 days a month, and when he was home he was sleeping to "recover" four of those days, I would keep the kids quiet, so Daddy could "rest" and recover and go out and do it all again.

After five or six years of that, I started to feel pretty insignificant, you can read more on here. I started a Master's program, finished it, and he flew more and more. The kids barely knew my dh; I begged and pleaded for more time, I NEEDED dh as some heavy stuff was happening 

I made a HUGE mistake of getting too close to a family friend. I was wrong because it was the easy way out.

Don't take the easy way out by just heading for divorce, make your marriage #1, even above your career, you don't have to do it forever, but long enough to make her realize you are serious about HER. I just hope she loves you like I think she may, you just can't see it right now, she may not either.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Sandy, 

Nice post and I agree. 

My husband is in a similiar financial position (long hours/great pay). However, there is a price to pay (so to speak) when work is coming before family. 

With my H, it seems that he is out of balance now. Work, racing/kids/God,me....I feel it. I am sure your W is also out of balance as well. Perhaps rekindling your spirituality together? 
At the very least it may give you some sense of direction that your life should take....


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## overitnolove (Dec 5, 2008)

Yeah,

Lastinline, you nee to pu the marriage before the business. Sit her down and talk about how she would feel if you were making less to spend time with her.

See how she reacts. If she melts then you know what to do.

On paper it is pretty easy to see how your relationship has gone the way it has. You were working far too much, when you helped out aroundthe house, you resented it, she did what she needed to make her happy and vadaboom, you lead seperate lives and wonder why you are even together.

I know it is a mans instinct to work harder when the relationship is on the rocks b/c men seem to equate doing the right thing with how much they work.

Working is only one peice of the pie. You've worked your butt off nonetheless and feel completely unappreciated, she has been a great mom and feels completely unappreciated.

How do you turn that around? It is obvious but you need to want to do it.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Thanks Sandy,
I appreciate your post. I was definitely arguing from my stronger point, "how hard I work" in my initial post. Thank you for calling me on that. You are right again in your assumption I have not made my wife feel as special as she deserves. However, I am right when I said she "pulled away first". Hell, she was shocked when I told her I had felt this way for the better part of a decade. She said if that's true why did you stay. Well it's for the same reason I'm here now, I made an oath and a commitment I told her. 
However, it's hard to continuously love when you are not being loved in return. By the end of the week I'm spent mentally. She no longer provides the support she used to. She won't even iron for me anymore. This kills me, (not the ironing), but the lack of support and handicaps me from in turn giving her the love and attention that she needs. I wish she could only see that. So you are right again Sandy, spouses go elsewhere. I got distracted with martial arts to deal with my emotions. It seemed very positive at the time, and I grew up on a wrestling mat, and spent 6 years in the service, so it has always sort of been in my blood. But for someone with martial issues, it is an unnecessary distraction as it takes a lot of time to become good at it. I became/am pretty good. I should have been studying marital arts though. I still regularly attend and train, because I have known these people for years and they are really the only friends I have. So now, I have a hard time parting with it only because I have no other social outlets. I am not blessed with her abundant free time, so friends do not come cheap. She is jealous when I do anything outside of our relationship exclusive from her, and has hated this activity of mine from the beginning. This is ironic, because she is Chicago right now with the kids, as I can't get away from work. No problems vacationing without me. In the beginning, I promised her I would only study to black belt, but you really don't even begin to learn until you are a first. I am a second now, and I told her previously that I would stop after reaching second. Now though, I value the social aspects more than anything else, so I have reneged again. This going back on my word, has not been a habit in our relationship, but I feel compelled to die on this hill because aside from TKD, all I really have is work and my kids. You are right again about me not wanting anyone else to raise my kids. That is not going to happen on my watch. I feel like she's holding all the cards. If I stay I'm unhappy, if I leave I'm financially screwed and unhappy, plus I have to contend with her hooking up with some "Sauncho." I could easily get some blond chicky and a sports car, but I don't want that. I want her. 
You are dead on right about what men want from a relationship Sandy. By the way, who gave away our playbook? In a nutshell, that is all I want. Why can't she do that? Basically, love me so I can love you, except it doesn't really work that way. I can't give her fulfillment. Sadly, I cannot give her what I don't have. 

Appreciating your insight.


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

Thanks for being man enough to begin to see it from HER postion. You are intelligent, you can do this.

You wrote:

"It's hard to continuously love when you are not being loved in return. "

THIS is how I felt. It is very likely your wife has felt this way a long time, long before an affair began...in fact the affair is proof of her *feeling* this way! The affair does not indicate she does not love you! TRUST ME! When an affair happens for a woman it is SCREAMING that she is DONE talking and waiting for her man to pay attention, and that she can't think of another way to fix it from her side. 

Too, an AFFAIR is *not* proof YOU DID NOT LOVE HER ENOUGH. You DID love her enough, _in the way you thought was showing LOVE_ (paycheck, success, her being in an awesome upward mobile man, you gave her children, control of everything at home) 

When I said to my DH after my affair: "I felt your inattention and ignoring my issues meant you did not love me enough, that other things, WORK was more important, you worked more and more the more unhappy I got!" 

He said: "I loved you like life itself, I brought home my paycheck I was working for US, I was doing it because I DID love you...". 

What I have discovered (YEARS later, gads I wish I'd KNOWN this 15 years ago when I had the affair!) is that MEN deal with stress and anger (over not being able to help SOLVE her unhappiness with something HE is doing or not doing) by either ANGER or getting on the professional treadmill MORE! Men work harder at WORK, because they are at a loss as to WHY a woman is not happy with all the money, the big house, everything a woman could want!

Men are NOT good at talking and expressing feelings. Men in general that is. Women are verbalizers, CLEARLY.

YOU need to keep trying. If you are ANGRY at her and still have HUGE issues going on about her affair, then FOCUS on your children's needs to have an intact FAMILY and happy father. 

TELL her you are NOT going to GIVE UP on you two. Just keep repeating that. I mean it. Don't overdo it, just prove it by being there MORE when you are not working.

I am going to "call" you on something else. I think you do too much "other" stuff. When a man and woman have FIVE kids, a dynamic career, a house to take care of, et al - TIMES away from HOME (if YOU are not at work and you two can get someone to watch the kids) should be YOU and HER. Period.

You two have SOOOOO much to manage that you rarely have time to be alone. My dh and I had FOUR kids, a huge 6500 sq ft house on an acre, his career going gang busters....we were ALL over the place and we didn't WATCH the MAINTENANCE of our MARRIAGE! YOU need to cut the extra-curricular activities, dude. 

We have learned the HARD way, too. 

You spoke of your wife taking trips without YOU, with the kids! I used to do this ALL the time! She needs to go, but you NEED to join her now and then! Truly. Maybe you need to back off a bit in the practice, too? Just a tad, for a while, while you two try to glue yourselves back together. You will need to woo her back into believing in the marriage. I know "SHE had the affair, Sandy!". Well, yes. Are you going to let some outsider destroy your life, and your marriage, your children's lives? NO. You work it out, you go the 110%. Your wife may need to do that for you some day. You never know - and I mean should you become ill, etc. You are not going to have an affair, it is not necessary, you can be more creative ....... 

*There were many times our kids were our reason for hanging on by our fingernails. CHILDREN are a blessing in a marriage in more ways than one. * 

Set out to SHOW your children how their father manages disappointment and hurt, and anger. Show them how much family means, what happens when the chips are down. You don't cut and run, you face things. It is the RIGHT thing to do.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Thanks again Sandy.
You should do this professionally. It's bizarre when I read your posts, because it's like getting a letter from myself. I appreciate your responses more than you know, because I can tell you have gone through a very similar situation, and learned greatly from it. Per your suggestion, I could easily quit TKD. I practice instead of eating lunch 2-3 times per weeks and go on Saturday mornings. My other morning training, Monday through Friday starts at 5-7:30am or so, and really doesn't interfere with anything around the house. She too has a sport, or had a sport because she is currently awaiting re constructive knee surgery. When it came to her sport, she had no problems with evenings, and weekends. In her defense, she would politely invite me along, but it was never really my thing. My thought is if you spend three hours at a gym, you should leave tired. Not so with racket ball. I have always been an exercise hound. I was this way when she met me at 18. I would think she would be happy that I take care of myself. It is important to me that I remain physically attractive to her, and conversely she is fit and still very attractive to me. It upsets me though that she wants it both ways, because at 40 most of her friends are now complaining their husbands are fat house cats. 
As for "He said: "I loved you like life itself, I brought home my paycheck I was working for US, I was doing it because I DID love you...". I could have wrote that. Lord knows I have thought it a thousand times. I also believe that I am the exception to your rule. I am very verbose, almost to a fault. In this aspect, I believe traditional roles are reversed in our situation. She isn't very good expressing herself, and tends to speak in either riddles or generalities. 
You are also very right when you say I am angry about the "affair". I am friggin pissed. It is the ultimate betrayal. I did nothing wrong. Nothing deserving of this. I have been the husband that society taught me to be. I worked hard. I was faithful. I was honest in my business associations. I feared God and lived by a Christian moral code. I took care of my family, and was a better father than the one I had. I was taught men are strong, so I became strong. I was taught men work hard, so I learned to work hard. Maybe she told me she needed something else, in fact I know on several occasions she did, but I had unfulfilled needs as well. The day I "found out" was very surreal. To be honest, when I got home I told her what had happened at work. How it was raining outside, and how I had to take this crying woman from our waiting room out into the fall rain because my patient's were hearing a bit too much of our conversation. She offered me pages of phone records as proof of their contacts, and reports of my wife leaving their house while she was out. I refused to take anything from her, as I couldn't look upon any of it. They both denied that anything physical occurred, however my neighbor has since divorced her husband. I guess at least one spouse didn't believe. My gut tells me she cheated. It explains why she is so aloof. I am tired of her midlife crisis. I am tired of her weekend trips to the coast. I am tired of her girls trips to Vegas. I am tired that after getting back from Chicago this week, she is wanting to go to Santa Barbara for friggin fiesta without me or the kids. I can hear her already "you need to spend sometime with the kids." I have tried to tell her that our relationship is the principle one, and without that plant vibrant and healthy, every other vine i.e. our kids wither. She doesn't agree. "The kids are more important." BS, if that were true they wouldn't have came second. Sometimes, I really believe she thinks that I really don't have any feelings because I tend to be pragmatic, disciplined, and look like a marine corp 1st sergeant. Maybe I should have chose a softer persona, but I honestly thought woman liked "strong" men. I thought this made her feel "safe". Hell, it attracted her to me in the first place, but I guess I was wrong. I really have nothing else to say, other than thank you for your input Sandy. I appreciate your wisdom. Maybe you have some ideas on how to forgive?


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

How to get past the affair? This is how my DH has done it with me:

1) *Commitment to stick* with me for at least "X" amount of time. The minimum should be TWO full years he says. Then he reassesses on a new time frame, commits to that. I know he is doing it, too, I can "feel" it. And that is right and good. It makes me reassess, too. IF you can't get yourself to stick with her as you are still too angry and resentful of her then you need to focus on committing for your family, and children. I SUGGEST you start going BACK to church, even if you do it ALONE with your children. Take the younger ones at least, the olders if they will go, I have teens and KNOW that if they are not "regularily" into it, they will balk and it isn't worth your stress to fight with them AT THIS TIME. If they are under 14, I'd make them go with you. MAKE REGULARITY important. As their father do the RIGHT thing.

2) *Time, time, time*. 
Time puts distance between the mental hurt, the anger, and mental pain and realities of day to day life. This element cannot be expressed ENOUGH, IMHO. Commitment and time, without one AND the other, each is useless. TIME also allows both partners TIME for personal discovery and GROWTH. I know, it sounds like psychobabble...but although an affair wounds deeply and destroys trust, it also helps many people to GROW and if a relationship holds through it, it allows the relationship to GROW. My marriage is proof of this, and I have a sister, who has been married 32 YEARS, and she and her spouse went through similar circumstances, at their TWELVE year mark. 

3) *Watching me*(her). I have made a point of letting him watch me, I am totally open, he has all my codes to the internet. I am totally honest. I truly have nothing to HIDE, I welcome his interest. I also made a promise to never cheat again, and I have not. I do *trustful* behaviors, I avoid temptations and try never to be alone with men. I have shown him remorse, frequently, he must see me show remorse. Now, mind you, I did not ALWAYS show remorse. The showing remorse started when I realized the PAIN and SUFFERING he truly felt. See, I did not realize he loved me more than life itself :scratchhead:. ONLY his *commitment* has shown me how much he did truly love me from the very beginning. 

*Both* partners must commit AT SOME POINT. This is likely easy for you as you never strayed, you have remained committed and now the affair happened you are only QUESTIONING yourself if you will be ABLE to not let this disappointment/anger at her kill your committment. 

NOW, listen _carefully_! When a woman cheats, she _USUALLY_ has disengaged at a *deeper level *than men usually disengage and she has been disengaged for a LONG time BEFORE she cheated. Very bad for a marriage. She likely became disengaged after a "_straw that broke the camel's back_" moment, if you will. THEN it was only a matter of time, that someone came into her radar that filled the *hole in her heart and mind*; she LIKELY wasn't even looking to fill the void, trust me. Women don't do affairs easily, it take them more time to fall, BECAUSE women do not compartmentalize their world (as men nearly always do), women's worlds are global, every aspect affects the other aspects, so the affair is not something she can put out of her mind easily. 

In order for ME to have an affair, I had mentally "thrown down the gauntlet" EIGHTEEN MONTHS before my affair happened and filed for divorce BEFORE my DH even knew of my affair! I already had a lawyer, had him in court, ALL that. I was DONE. Big time. 

DH was STILL hanging on by his fingernails in divorce court! THEN he used custody of our kids to keep access to me going! So you can SEE that _*both*_ partners must commit AT SOME POINT, but your wife is not yet committed to you again, from what I SEE, I am not sure. The reason I say this, is that you are still pretty bitter and angry, and you haven't indicated positives you've seen withher. You MAY be missing many signals, not your fault, at this point, but just realize your "anger" crap can really get in the way unless you get it "dealt" with and get past it at some point "contain it" as my DH says...

With the wife having the affair (assuming it is the FIRST and only, and she is not a habitual cheater...which it sounds like she is NOT) and if she did "throw down the gauntlet" before the affair, then your job is going to be one of *LONELY commitment *UNTIL you can convince her to RE-COMMIT her heart to you. IF you can possibly get her to do the RE-COMMIT you two will see daylight again, and it will be a better marriage than even before all the crap of life sucked your wife away and into disaster.

Let's be REAL: 

SHE needs to realize AGAIN (in order to commit), that:

A) IF she recommits YOU are going to learn from her mistake and take her needs seriously, you will never slack off again.
(This is THE most important factor to your marriage continuing other than commitment as this causes her commitment).

B) You are a "hot" commodity in ANY woman's world and YOU want JUST HER, and have not cheated on her (correct???). You are educated, make much money, stay in shape, are young, a good father. What more could a woman ask? She needs to THINK. :scratchhead:

MY DH is a "hot" commodity, I ALMOST let him slip through my STUPID fingers; he wanted JUST me - that is pretty dynamite for a woman, and she needs to *realize* WHY her man was happy with her! Take TIME to show HER! (Hardest thing for my DH is time for me. He tries to throw money at me to make up for it..... I want TIME with HIM; your DW wanted this with YOU...still does I will bet). 

She has to realize what I realized. She will, if you do this right: COMMITMENT and TIME on YOUR part will SHOW her how important she is to YOU. That is all she wants, to *know,* beyond a shadow of a doubt SHE is more important to you than the breath you take. She needs more than your paycheck, dude, she needs someone BESIDE her physically, she needs you to watch her back, she needs you to show your love with TIME! Heck you love your partnership adn career, and you have SHOWN her that, by so much TIME, but NOW that it is doing well, you NEED to focus your time on HER, and your KIDS - but mostly HER, as she will then be back focusing on THEM.

That is why you both need, commitment and time, but you have a wife who is not "back" into commitment yet, so *you*, the more cognizant partner (at this moment in time), needs to step up to bat. Period. THIS will give HER more time to LEARN you have changed and made a commitment to teaching HER why she needs to re-commit. 

One more thing:

I hurt my DH with my stupid affair. It was MY duty and obligation to FIX it if I want my marriage to be a long lasting one. This does NOT mean HE did not have work to do, too. But his work was TIME AND COMMITMENT at the beginning; it was him SHOWING me WHY I need not leave our marriage. At first it was the kids I stayed for, then it turned to him much later. He KNEW it all along too, but he held like a rock (at times I hated him for it, but now, I am blessed for this trait in him). I had even SAID to him: "I am here only because of these kids..."
Boy, how that must have hurt, but he just kept waiting until the tide turned, and that took his commitment and time.

Remember she has cheated, and the one in a partnership who has cheated is not experiencing what you are experiencing. She is not experiencing it from the same world view as you. 

She has *not yet seen* what she *could* have lost (you). You have to show her and do it well, without resentment and anger, bitterness and hate.

Hard, very hard. Just ask my DH. Learning the dynamics of a wife having an affair is hard when one is angry. Get over the anger as much as you can, it will take time, but it will fade if you focus on WHY you need to get over it. The why is that you cannot possibly move forward and regain happiness without doing so.


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

You need to begin working on listening to her at some point. 

The SB thing. My DH and I have been there done that, with the "she wants to live elsewhere, and he doesn't".

Ask me more about that when you are ready and able.

Sorry my posts are SOOOO long. Am not very concise.


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## Tryinghard (Aug 3, 2009)

Wow Sandy...your posts are long but oh so insightful.

I am also a woman who has had an affair and am trying to get my marriage back on track. I have cut off all contact with him but I am finding it very hard since I think about this person all the time. I know my husband is a good man and I know deep down in side that I do love him and we have 3 kids together.

I am trying to do right, but I am hurting inside.


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## Nobody123 (Jun 23, 2009)

From your post, you seem to be a success driven individual who is strong minded and has high expectations for everyone including himself. You will give 110% to every task so as to achieve perfection. Failure or 2nd best is not something that you will accept kindly. Thus, it bets the question of whether you are busting your life to provide for your family or you are also doing it for your own self gratification. Among your busy routine, which includes the Tai-Kwon-Do practice to keep you fit and attractive, as well as the gruesome working schedule to make more money, which one helps to put your marriage relationship as top priority? It is just sad to see so many people work so hard trying to win the world but lose their own in the process. 

Your wife told you that she has nothing more to give and she is tired. She also gave you an ultimatum to quit your practice for the marriage to continue. These are signals that indicate her state of mind and have to be addressed. Something very precious between you and your wife have been lost along the way. I think both of you are tired and overworked. With all the money that you earn, please put it to some use; instead of buying expensive toy which is only good for a moment of gratification, get yourself a housekeeper, a gardener and take your shirts to the dry cleaner. Start putting things into perspective. Work with your wife to prioritize the most important elements in your life and put the effort to allocate the time accordingly. I know it is very hard to get past the resentment but the following words have helped me greatly in my marriage and I hope it will help you too. 

*No one falls in love by choice, it is by CHANCE. 
No one stays in love by chance, it is by WORK. 
And no one falls out of love by chance, it is by CHOICE*

It is never end game unless you choose it. Good luck


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

Tryinghard said:


> Wow Sandy...your posts are long but oh so insightful.
> 
> I am also a woman who has had an affair and am trying to get my marriage back on track. I have cut off all contact with him but I am finding it very hard since I think about this person all the time. I know my husband is a good man and I know deep down in side that I do love him and we have 3 kids together.
> 
> I am trying to do right, but I am hurting inside.


Trying hard:

Thank you. I hope others can learn from my hard earned insight through devastating experiences. I also read constantly, learning never stops, and it is that way in marriage. 

Yes, often the one cheating hurts terribly and the other spouse is thinking WTF :scratchhead: SHE didn't even get betrayed or dumped! HOW could SHE possibly be hurting?? 

It really confuses men, because men do not realize how women think and operate. The same thing happens with women, they don't take the TIME to figure out their man - ESPECIALLY in EARLY marriage. 

I have a term I'd like to introduce: "The default affair". 

My *definition of a default affair* is an affair in which a spouse (male or female) has disconnected due to hurt, disappointment, and pain but is *not having an affair* with another for at least six months. In FACT when the disconnection takes place (the last straw to nail the last nail into the coffin of disappointment, lonliness, and pain this spouse is feeling) the spouse is often SHOUTING for reconnection, but the other spouse just isn't reading the signals OR ignoring them hoping it is their imagination or they are in denial. *Then after a period of time* "fate" presents someone who befriends the disconnected spouse, and a *period of platonic activities* (six months or more) and moral support ensues. THEN sexuality kicks in - and the affair is full blown.

This default affair ends with sadness and pain for the person ending the affair to return to the marriage BECAUSE an affair by default is one where a RELATIONSHIP has begun and blossomed. 

Unlike the sexual "affair", which is just sexual hotness, which is shallow and will not last (fleeting); the default affair has deeper meaning for many women (and men). So the woman or man in a default affair must now hurt a person to break free to re-commit back to the spouse. No one LIKES hurting a person they are attached to, so there is hurt and misery. In addition, the person they are leaving MAY still be very attractive (for many reasons) and may EVEN be a better partner choice BUT there may be children back in the marriage, there is history to a marriage, a "knowing" each other, and there will still be love in the marriage (if the partner so chooses) and a strong desire to stay committed beyond the affair, IF the hurt spouse can take a cheating spouse back. 

When a spouse returns to a marriage after an affair, it is a *return to commitment - it is a huge marking point in recovery of a faltering marriage* torn apart by marital LIFE.

One of the repeated questions I see in marriages where a wife is cheating is: "Why is she sad over that dirt bag?".

It takes immense love, understanding and healing on the part of a wronged spouse to have the compassion to realize the spouse did not WANT to cheat, did not WANT to fall in love with another man (or woman) and let the cheating spouse recover *too*.


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## Tryinghard (Aug 3, 2009)

Thanks so much again Sandy...for your words of insight!

My husband has a history of disconnecting from me...he goes into his man cave and is sullen for longer periods of time. I've always wanted to know what was wrong and he says 'nothing'...and it really hurt me. He does rebound eventually after I get VERY upset at him...but after years and years of dragging him out of his 'mancave', I have become resentful. I'm always the one dragging him back to reality. Before my affair, there was a long period of disconnect and I was tired of him sitting on the couch watching baseball night after night and being ignored.

And yes, my friendship with 'other' person truly made me feel invigorated again and we discussed every intellectual topic under the sun. Eventually of course my feelings for him grew (as did he). Of course I realized that the 'relationship' would never be feasible in reality, but I had fallen for him and of course my relationship with my husband had suffered more because of it.

ANYONE thinking that an 'emotional affair' (or connection with a friend of the opposite sex other than one's husband) does not affect the marriage is just FOOLING themselves! I was however VERY happy for over two years knowing I could speak with this person on a daily basis (over chat). He permeated my thoughts constantly.

I recently decided that enough was enough and that I HAD to stop contact with this person...and this other 'person' did not seem too upset about it anyways....goes to show that my 'infatuation' was more one sided...!

It's been about a month and a half now and although I'm not crying as much as I used to.....I still feel empty in my marriage.
I did have a HUGE talk with my husband that I wasn't going to take certain things in our marriage anymore....but he has been much nicer lately. He does however tell me he is walking on 'eggshells' fearing he will get me mad..but I'm GLAD he feels this way...because I was tired of him talking and treating me the way he WAS.

Anyways, only time will heal and I hope that I can rekindle my love for him, but at the same time, I miss my 'friend' terribly...it's kind of like I've lost my best friend.

Ooops, I hope I haven't hijacked this thread with my post..but Sandy I'm so glad you have voiced your thoughts on the one who cheated...is also suffering too (although many would not have sympathy for them). As far as I am concerned that are always TWO people to somehwat 'blame' for an affair..not just the person who cheated.


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

Nobody123: EXCELLENT post, :iagree::iagree::iagree: 

Lastinline: When you wrote that your wife was no longer ironing your shirts, I nearly dropped my cup of coffee!

When DH and I got married I was ironing two sets of uniform shirts for: A) his flying job, and B) his part time military Guard job. He liked them nice and starchy, needed to have the collar buttoned just so...on and on. I obliged for 17 YEARS!

I stopped doing that when _he dropped me off at the hospital for ACL repair surgery, on his way to the airport! He didn't even stick around or take Family Leave for the two weeks after the surgery date to help me at home. I had to find my own ride home! Yes, I can laugh about it now....he didn't meet my expectations, but then again I didn't clarify "the plan"...and he just assumed. COMMUNICATION!

After we re-committed and have gotten past all the "crap" we laugh about it now! It wasn't funny to me, at 38, but NOW? I realize he was work, work, work and I was BAD at communicating my needs. We both were at fault.

Kind of glad he did that, I was getting way tired of ironing his shirts..._


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Sandy, I guess it will take time, but right now I find it impossible to forgive her because she hasn't shown any real repentance. She has given me rationalizations for her behavior, but hers is an indefensible position. I want friggin accountability, and then I can begin to talk about commitment. I believe I now understand what the word estranged means. If I need to meet her most of the way Sandy, I am sorry to tell you I can't do that. I guess I'm weak. Yes, pride is a deadly sin, but then again so is lust. Hmmm, I guess, I am loosing 2 to 1, because come to think of it so is anger. I honestly, believe I could forgive just about anything other than this. I have gave up and changed so much of my friggin life for this woman, and for her to do this is unacceptable.  I left my chance to become a commisioned officer in the service, which was my first and only true career dream. To this day, she talks as if she saved me from something terible by "finding me" and showing me her enlightened ways. For the record, she was a crappy student in college. She is very bright, just a poor work ethic. Let's see, am I actually commited to her? I left my family and friends in the midwest for her. I busted my rump in school for her and then again when I graduated and "hit the street". So in retrospect, I think so. She comes from a quasi wealthy family, and married down on the socio-economic ladder when she met me. Her parents originally didn't approve of her marrying a "service man", but as they got to know me, they began to realize how lucky their daughter was. Their words, not mine. I understand everything that has been done for me, and I truly appreciate her parents support in all my endeavors, i.e. they supplied the original start up money for my first clinic. I have long since paid them back in both money and thanks. I honestly believe that I enjoy a better relationship with her mother than she does. No, I have not mentioned any of my wife's activities to her mother, nor do I intend to. However, everyone in my clinic knows with the exception of my assistant. God I hate people that gossip. Anyway Sandy, I am not up to lonely commitment right now. I think a lot will hinge on how my wife acts this week following her return from back east. She needs to offer the olive branch. She needs to give the mea culpa. I would need a hand and a half to count the opportunities that I have had to cheat on her during our marriage. I have turned down everything from blatant proposition to bump and rub. It is called control and self respect. I just wish to hell part of me still didn't love this woman. As always Sandy, thanks for your insight, but do you have any other angle aside from lonely commitment on this one?


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Back at you Sandy! I just happen to be drinking coffee now as I read this, and guess whose wife blew out her ACL about a month ago? Just about the same age too. "See previous post about her sport and upcoming reconstructive knee surgery". I have actually refered her to a friend of mine for surgery, although a dark part of me took some satisfaction in wanting her "to hurt". Karma and all that. I just couldn't do wrong by her that way however, so I pulled some strings and got her in with the best. It's darn right strange how similiar our situations are. We are just on the opposite sides of the fence. I think that's why I find your posts so insightful. God though, I dont think I'm up to this lonely commitment thing.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Nobody123 said:


> From your post, you seem to be a success driven individual who is strong minded and has high expectations for everyone including himself. You will give 110% to every task so as to achieve perfection. Failure or 2nd best is not something that you will accept kindly. Thus, it bets the question of whether you are busting your life to provide for your family or you are also doing it for your own self gratification. Among your busy routine, which includes the Tai-Kwon-Do practice to keep you fit and attractive, as well as the gruesome working schedule to make more money, which one helps to put your marriage relationship as top priority? It is just sad to see so many people work so hard trying to win the world but lose their own in the process.
> 
> Your wife told you that she has nothing more to give and she is tired. She also gave you an ultimatum to quit your practice for the marriage to continue. These are signals that indicate her state of mind and have to be addressed. Something very precious between you and your wife have been lost along the way. I think both of you are tired and overworked. With all the money that you earn, please put it to some use; instead of buying expensive toy which is only good for a moment of gratification, get yourself a housekeeper, a gardener and take your shirts to the dry cleaner. Start putting things into perspective. Work with your wife to prioritize the most important elements in your life and put the effort to allocate the time accordingly. I know it is very hard to get past the resentment but the following words have helped me greatly in my marriage and I hope it will help you too.
> 
> ...


Nobody 123, I am indeed a strong willed and success driven person. In order to achieve anything of worth in the world, it's pretty much a given that you have to be this way. However, I do accept failure, and in fact even welcome it if I have truly given my best, Some of my most important "teachable moments" have came after I had screwed something royally up. A failure is still a mistake, but if you have learned from it, at least it's not a mistake you are likely to repeat. As for 2nd place that's fine by me as well. I figure with 6.5 billion people on the planet, number two wouldn't be bad at all. Hell, I'd even settle for number 2 million. The reality is, I am not who you think I am. I am a friggin poor kid who was given a chance and became something he wasn't probably supposed to be. I do receive gratification from my work, because my patients do in fact appreciate me. There is no greater complement than the referral of a loved one for care. Could I leave it? In a friggin heart beat. I see less talented people making a hell of a lot more money with less work and heartache every day. Do I beat the hell out of myself physically so I can retain a mental edge, dull the friggin pain of a failed relationship, and make it through the day without missing something important while I'm working? Yep, pretty sure that's it. Frankly, the fact that she keeps asking me to give up anything in my life that has value to me as some sort of noble sacrifice to prove my love, is rather immature and selfish in my opinion. She's tired, well so the hell am I. The reality is the major difference between us is that when pushed, I chose to press on over the next hill, and she chose to quit. In case you were wondering, we had a housekeeper for years, and still have a gardener. As for the yard part, we have a lot of flowers, so it's detail work to keep everything in bloom. I mostly do it, because I find it cathartic. Same exact reason I study TKD. It seems there is satisfaction in both building and destroying. As for your quote, I disagree. I believe all three occur by choice. I am sorry if I sound hostile in this reply, but WTF, it's impossible to be a man these days, because it seems like if your summer sooner or later your wife wants winter. Well, I never friggin chose to be "summer". I became what I thought she wanted me to be, and now she doesn't like everything that comes with it. Well neither do I. "Everything has a trade off." The last is my special little quote to share with you. I do appreciate your advice though, but unless I change my environment I don't think it will be possible to change my perspective as the one largely shapes the other.


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

Last: You are in a high anger stage of this. When did you discover your wife's affair, how long has it been?

Part of the reason for your immense anger is that you had control of your life taken away. When we don't have to THINK about the trustfulness of your spouse, life is easier. All you had to worry about before finding out about the affair is "things we disagree about and fight about..." you didn't have the wake up call that she'd strayed. 

You have anger and the anger is based on several things. One big one is disappointment in that she lied, a spouse is not supposed to lie to you. Sad, isn't it, when one discovers she did lie to you...and another person, HIS wife was the one to tell you. Would you have rather gotten it straight from your wife...you likely think YES, because that keeps it private and less stressful, having some person march into your office and tell you. The other wife should not have done that, she did it in anger at him, and your wife. It was wrong. *Little good comes of things done in anger, Last.*

You are angry because she took control away from you, Last. You are good at control - (HEY, look how FAR you came, and you did it by having strong control on yourself, DISCIPLINE) but you cannot control another person who is beyond _her _hope and tolerance for stress, one who has become weak and cornerned, that is the problem No one is perfect, you did not see it coming, neither did SHE. So when it did come, you looked like a fool and she looks like a sleaze.

You are a man who does not like being a fool, made a fool of by a woman or anyone for that matter. A man who's wife strays is ashamed of being "duped", ashamed of looking less a man, not in control of his wife and life.

How long have you known? 

You quote: 'Everything has a trade off".

I hope you take that into account when you think about the fact that you have control over your children's life.

YES, had she NOT cheated the kid's lives would not be hovering on the brink of divorced parents.....yes, it is her fault;

BUT two wrongs; one wrong powered by distress and weakness, and the other powered by anger and "holier than thou" attitude, do not make a right, Last.

You also need to ask yourself: 

A) When I arrive in heaven and have forgiven my wife her sin will I have done well by God? 

No, God does not ask you to be a doormat, but from what you have written on these pages, I do not see you as a doormat. Far from it, Last. Far from it.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Sandy, perceptive as ever. You are right. I am angry. I do feel as though control in my life has been taken away. I also find that I no longer trust her. This is especially hard, as our current lives cause us to spend time apart frequently. I have taken to sending her messages straight to voice mail when she calls my cell, or having a message taken when she calls the front desk. Now she pretty much just doesn't call. I realize this is petty, but I have sort of adopted an Amish policy of shunning her. I am no longer wearing my wedding ring. I never removed it once during the 1st 16 or so years of our marriage. Now, I'm not even sure exactly where it is in my office. I frequently back out of social commitments with her as I feel our relationship is a friggin sham. I also feel that this has diminished me as a man, and this disturbs me greatly. I feel that somehow I am inadequate, but I am not sure in what category. The bastard she cheated with isn't even half the man I am in any capacity I can measure. He isn't good looking, he's not particularly bright, or even very successful for that matter. He just had a lot of time off between jobs and was available. Please don't tell me the secret is just being available. The dog was available as well, but she didn't opt to screw it. He actually apologized to me in a very public place, and stated to me vehemently that nothing physical occurred between him and my wife after the incident "went down" with his wife. If true, why did his wife promptly divorce him. If untrue, I have infidelity compounded by lack of remorse. I feel like she's sullied or defiled. I loath to touch her, but sometimes I do anyway. I guess just because I can. I feel like I'm marking a tree. I really don't feel "holier than thou" Sandy. I actually feel rather sad. It's as if my best friend died. I guess in a way she did. For the record Sandy, it has been eight months since I found out. I suppose I'm not making much progress on the "road to recovery." Anyway, here's to a more productive next eight months, while I wait for my wounds to coagulate. [*I]LAST[/I]*


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

'while I wait for my wounds to coagulate...".

That is very clever analogy, actually. Yup, you are bleeding all right. From a big fat wound (that isn't a nice clean scalpel cut), that was a ripping, shredded, jagged edged trauma wound from a SHARK; that shark is called infidelity. 

Your wife is not the shark, infidelity is. Infidelity can take a hunk out of a marriage, sometimes rendering it unable to swim back to shore. 

She made a very poor judgment call, Last. She was angry, disappointed, tired, lonely due to the non-communication that had built up.

I wish we could get her on here too! It would work, you know. She could take a name, I could speak to you both at the same time. THEN you could read her side, and her yours from a distance. My DH and I don't counsel well within sight of each other. Neither of us has a poker face, we do a great deal of speaking through eye contact and body language, so we give our anger away before we even get a chance to discuss! It is awful.

Without both of you working toward center, your job, should you decide to fight it out, uphill, is going to be very hard.

She needs to come to the table and talk.


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

She could learn and grow from it. You both would. 

Free too!


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

I can't imagine I will invite her any time soon Sandy, but if I did here is what she'd say. "He is never here even when he is here. He is always talking about something that happened at the clinic with so and such patient, or about one of his partners. He takes his work home. Half the time he spends 1/2 of Sunday in his office writing reports or reading some stupid book or journal. He is always complaining that something isn't right, or some insurance company did this or that. I'm tired of hearing him ***** about paperwork and Medicare forms. He talks to me like I actually care about this $hit. I tired of offering him advice because he never listens to me, even though I am always right. He's stubborn, and he can be so negative. He never wants to do anything or go anywhere. For the time he spends at work he should be payed a lot more than what he is. He carries his stupid practice, and when my parents provided the loan for his first clinic, he gave away half the shares to his partner who does nothing. How friggin dumb was that? He complains about not having full control of operations to me when he friggin is the one who gave it away. Way to go Santa Claus. The man has no business sense. He never pays attention to me unless he wants sex, and he wants that entirely too much. I just give in because it's easier to sleep with him than having him sulk and complain about his needs not being met. What about my needs? Money is tight because he constantly wastes it on this or that. We need to save, but we never seem to be able to. We make a lot more money that most of my friends, but they take trips and go places. We just work. That's his thing "work". Speaking of, I have to do a lot more "work" because of him and his stupid dogs. I told him never get a male dog, but he went and got two. He never listens to me. They pee and poo in the garage and I hate to even go in there to park. I really don't like him. He's condescending and he always acts like he's so G*d D*amn smart. He's got an answer for everything. I'm really "impressed" when we watch mystery diagnosis that he can figure out the person has a friggin alpha something anti-tripsi something deficiency, but what does he do? Just the other week here is what he did. We have a friend who has a kid who is dying of cancer and is home on hospice. They called him at the clinic and asked him if he could stop by and work with "C" as he was once a patient of his. My A$$ of a husband shows up twice, drops some stuff off and doesn't even go back and talk to him or his mom because he says he's terminal. There is "nothing he can do." That's how he said it. Real cold and callus. "I can't do anything for him, he's terminal." Well he could just go and talk with him. "C" really looked up to him. Just go and comfort him I said. No friggin bedside manner or social manners. He did the same exact $hit when my dad died. I needed him at the end, but could he take some time away from the clinic...no. I'm not important enough. Two weeks ago we are at a nice restaurant. It's Friday after work, and he's complaining about how hungry he is because he trained "so hard in the morning." and he never eats any lunch, only protein bars or Syntha whatever. I tell him my friends are going to join us for dinner so we will have to wait for a while before we are seated. We are there for about 45 minutes and I've ordered appetizers when he gets up and puts money on the table, tells me to have a nice dinner, and walks out of the restaurant leaving me there by myself. People were looking. Who does that? He didn't even have car keys as I drove. His angry A$$ then had to walk 5 miles to get home. I didn't bother to look for him. I figured the walk would do him good. When I get home he's watching "Unleashed". He doesn't watch much tv, but when he does it's always karate this or that. Worse, he is always trying to teach that crap to our kids. Kids don't need to learn to hurt people, they already can do that without any training. Kids need to be taught how to love. As such a good "Christian" I think my husband would know that. He doesn't. It's how do you get out of this choke, or throw this person. What's the counter for a blah kick. It's stupid. The only fight he ever is going to get in is with me, and they are verbal not physical. He says racket ball is dumb, not nearly half as dumb as what he does. If my friends hit me it's accidental, his do it on purpose. I really don't love him, but I'm trapped. I have invested my life in his acquiring skills. When I met him, I encouraged him and loved him. If it wasn't for me, he would have been a frigging "lifer" in the military. I helped him go to college/s, and toughed it out through those lean years while he was studying. He got scholarships, and had his GI bill, but I worked some and my parents helped a lot too. This is how he thanks me now. He gives me an ultimatum and tells me I need to make a choice about whether or not I want to be his wife. I don't want to talk about what he thinks happened with our neighbor. "J"'s wife was a nut. She was taking all sorts of medication. I can't believe he doesn't believe me. Yes I still hang around with J. He's a friend. Lot's of people have friends of the opposite sex. He hangs around all day with a young blond at work that "hangs" on his every word. Please... some a$$istant she is. I trust him. Why can't he trust me? I think it would go something like that Sandy. So there you have it, her side as brought forth in living, vivid, memory-vision 2.0. Am I a bad guy? Maybe so. Do I have faults, sure. Do I want my marriage to fail? No. Can I break out of this crippling tunnel vision? Don't really know, but I hope so. So stay tuned for the next exciting episode, when we find out whether or not my wife will "miss" me after being gone for a full week back east. A lot will be hanging on this one.


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

Last. Holy cow! THIS is scary!

My DH could have written the WHOLE post!!!! Pretty damn close, Last!! He has said all those things to me, and I to him....

Just trade out blond assistant and put in 16 flight attendants - those are my DH's "assistants". :rofl: 

You and your DW are me and DH 15 years ago! Well, my dh does NOT work out, and my DH smokes..I doubt you do that...

This is *awesome*!

This is like SERIOUS deja vous!


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

Uh, I EVEN stayed in contact with OM after, for a time, until I got SERIOUS. Sorry to tell you, but that happens too...she keeps contact. That will also end. It must, sigh.

But it will be easier for you, because you found me here with your story, I could be your future....ur, my story could be your future, if you and your DW make it! 

Cool.

Let me get personal, how was the sex before "issues" and resentments seeped in?

Well, with FIVE kids, I guess the sex was pretty spot on???


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

Well, spot on AND apparently you two are biological matches....

Me and DH are both.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

lastinline said:


> Do I want my marriage to fail? No.


One thing you do have is an incredible amount of insight of your wife's perspective on your marriage. If you do not want your marriage to fail, you certainly have specific things you can do to help your situation.

The darkest cloud looming seems to be the huge amount of resentment on both sides. Not uncommon in marriages of 10+ years, but if you are both feeling 'too little too late' to want to make real changes, the resentment will continue to build.

Someone has to make the first move, and although you may feel it needs to be her, you cannot control that. You can, however, control what you do.

It seems you have some pretty big hurdles to clear...Your resentment/anger which is making you feel that you should not be the one putting in the effort. The second being fear. If you put in the effort and the marriage does not improve you have sacrificed the few things you currently enjoy.

From what you've stated, I wouldn't hold my breath in hopes that she will suddenly shower you with love and affection. This will likely only happen if she makes the choice to make the first move to rebuild your marriage...could happen...could be a very long wait.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Forgiveness is a tough one, but in the end it's for you not her if you can get to that point.

For me several things came into play:

Pride/ego...always thought I would bail if he ever cheated until it happened. Then had thoughts that if I stay, I am a doormat. I had to work through that and for me, I was able to be empathetic in seeing how he was feeling within our marriage at the time. Not that there is ever an excuse to cheat, but that it didn't just happen out of the blue.

He is human and made a mistake. I could reconcile this because he talked to me about it and showed true remorse. I can see where you are at a crossroads here since she has admitted no fault and is still in contact with him.

We were able to openly talk about how our marriage got to this point and I actually mustered up some strength at that point (not sure where the heck it came from) in thinking, I will not stay in a marriage that is not monogomous, so I just asked that he respect me enough to tell me if he no longer wanted to be in the marriage anytime down the road. And I honestly know I will be okay, even if it's not what I want.

What really helped the anger diminish was that we both decided our marriage was worth fighting for and made real changes in putting our marriage on the top of our priority list. Since that time, we both feel loved and lucky. I wanted to forgive him and did at that point.

It's been 2 years. Forgiveness happened in a few months because we were both focused on one another. Images, hurt, anger went on for over a year but dwindled over time. 

My focus isn't on what he is or isn't doing, but more on what I am doing to be the best wife to him that I can. Fortunately, he is doing the same thing so even if one of us is having an off day, it doesn't matter...the other is there to pick them up.


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## COFLgirl (Oct 9, 2008)

swedish said:


> Forgiveness is a tough one, but in the end it's for you not her if you can get to that point.
> 
> For me several things came into play:
> 
> ...


Nice post, swedish! 

Your thoughts/feelings about your husband's affair are very similar to mine and it sounds like your recovery process is very similar, too. I also said I could never forgive infidelity and like you, I had to work through my feelings of being perceived (even by me) as a doormat for staying. I have slowly started to realize that staying in a marriage after infidelity is the stronger, more difficult choice as opposed to running away.

I'm glad to hear things are going well for you in your marriage.

Things are going very well for my husband and me too. We have a much better relationship now. 

Like you mention, forgiveness on my part happened after a few months. My husband showed extreme remorse and has worked very hard to 'make up' for what he did. I simply loved him too much and I knew he loved me, so forgiveness was my 'gift' to both of us, for the sake of our marriage.

swedish, how did the hurt, images and anger finally diminish for you? While I feel a lot better now, the hurt and sadness remain, sometimes quite strongly. I have rehashed everything over and over in my head...what went so wrong between us? I have a good understanding now of what went wrong and how it happened-this was essential for me since I tend to be a thinker. But how do I let go of the sadness and pain?

I agree that sometimes good people make mistakes-yes, some will disagree and say that an affair is not a mistake. But whatever term is used-bad decision, poor judgement, etc, who hasn't done something that they regret later? 

sorry for the t/j

Lastinline, I think you have a good handle on what the issues are in your marriage. When you wrote your wife's 'side' of things-wow! If this is even 50% accurate (I'm not saying you're lying!) then you have a good handle on your wife's feelings as well. This could be the start of rebuilding your relationship.

Like another poster here said, resentments build up in long-term marriages. Your disappointment and that of your wife is nothing unusual.

I get your anger-like you, it has been 8 months since I found out about my husband's affair. So, it is still fresh for both you and me. It will take time.

One of the biggest things that has happened since my marriage reached a crisis point last year (the A), is that the resentments that had built up over the years have been burned away for both my husband and me. And, like your marriage, there was a lot of resentment built up in my marriage. We were married 18 years at that point, just a little longer than you.

Please try to talk to your wife. Avoiding her phone calls doesn't help. I know you're hurt...you have every right to be. But, try one more time to reach out to her. I know it's difficult-trust me, I've been there. Have you guys considered MC? I think it would be very beneficial for you.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

COFLgirl said:


> swedish, how did the hurt, images and anger finally diminish for you?


She still works with him so I saw her at a few Christmas parties since and my thoughts went more to WTF :scratchhead: Her? Really? Okaaay....

Okay kidding aside I can't say they are totally gone...and this won't help lastinline I don't think  but I did notice the bad days started to coincide with my PMS days...and last several months it's only been a few times. I don't think it is anything I specifically did, just the combination of time passing by and the marriage keeps getting stronger...and the images make me want to stab my eyeballs out...:rofl:


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Ahh, cliffhangers... movies like Raiders of the Lost Ark are fabulous aren't they? They leave you clinging to the edge of your seat wondering what will happen next. That's how I was yesterday, when I finally got a chance to see my wife again after she was gone for a week back east. "I really missed you", I said. Surprized, she countered will the ever satisfying "since your home so early, could you take "C" to Jazz Workshop tonight." Hurt, but trying to practice both patience and kindness as they are "the twin pillars of love"...(I hate you Love Dare Book), I replied "helpfully" "sure, I guess I can pick up some stuff and my check from the other clinic." Clearly happy at this prospect she croned "great, then when you're at the bank, could you take out some extra money to pay "C's" saxophone instructor?" I could go on, but I think everyone's pretty much got the picture. Yep, sorry to report it gang, but this time Indianna Jones didn't quite make it out of that cave in Peru. "No sir, he pretty much got squished by that big rock flatter than an ol' horney toad." I met with a Christian counselor yesterday. I moved my afternoon around and messed up a couple things at the clinic, but I thought that this week long break might act as a reset button on our marriage. I was encouraged by "J" and vowed that I would try again at my relationship with a new vigor. He suggested I let go of absolutely anything that had occurred more than 60 days ago. He suggested that I shouldn't mention anything out side of that window, and that I look at only the issues that have recently transpired. It helped me. I really didn't think that it would, but it helped me as most of my anger and issues stems from her affair, (go figure), and that was about 8 months ago. When we talked about that and he was rather quiet. Seems it's not a topic they discuss much when she's there. I informed him that it is slighlty unsettling when your wife takes Yasmin and you have had a vasectomy. He quipped there are other reasons for taking oral BC medication. I said I know, her complexions just fine. He went through my check list, and I fessed to my inattentiveness, my overall harsh demeanor, and my spendthrift nature with money. I had a clean slate on all of the biggies, drug use, infidelity, abuse. I even convinced him that I wasn't contemplating a UFC debut. Wow, what I would pay to listen to their sessions. We talked about all of the books we had both read on relationships and were in lockstep about which books really were "good" and which ones weren't. I informed him that I have excellent communication skills and problem solving skills. Both I offered, are mandatory for my profession. He aggreed with my self assessment, and inquired what then do you need? I said "love". I don't have any of that. He didn't ask to meet with me again. He said though, there would be tremendous benefit with meeting with us as a couple, after he had had another meeting or two with my wife. I agreed. Well movie fans...you write the next chapter. Should there be a sequel, or does this film suck way too much? Let me know. I could sure use your thoughts, prayers, screenwrites, and ideas on this one.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

lastinline said:


> He suggested I let go of absolutely anything that had occurred more than 60 days ago.


A lot tougher than it sounds, but if you can follow this as you begin counseling together you may start to see some hope for your marriage.

You have been enlightened. You know what you want. You know what you need to do to right this ship. 

She is not there, but it doesn't mean she won't be at some point. Expecting immediate results will only bring you down. Your marriage didn't get to this point overnight.


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## atropa (Jul 8, 2009)

Sorry lastinline... I don't have any advice to give, I just wanted to say that.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Well, I guess we've gone from Indiana Jones to Titanic, and the ship sank this weekend. She has officially asked for a separation. Oh, we can still have dinner sometime, and maybe even see a movie, but I am just not "fun enough" for her. I thought at forty, I was supposed to be productive and useful. We went to some stupid class reunion in Santa Barbara this weekend and I wanted to leave early because the only people she knew were people she worked at Burger Friggin King with. Please Louise. I simply asked if we could go elsewhere. A place perhaps where they weren't serving 12$ drinks where we could sit and talk. I told her that we are drifting apart rapidly and that this concerns me. I said we don't even have any goals as a couple, short term, long term, or otherwise. She than told me we did...pay off debt and get the new clinic running. I said you just described one of your golas and one of my goals, but not any of our goals. She then got pissed and went to facebook. Perhaps a woman out there can give me some ideas on what makes another woman walk away from a husband of 18 years when there isn't abuse or infidelity on his part. When he is a professional, good looking, decent man. Is really being "not fun" sufficient means to snuff a marriage? I am getting to the point where I am ready to say "F" it, let it die. It seems like the harder I try the worse she becomes. She trades kindness for barbs, patience for hate, and I'm sick of it. I am tired of being last in line, and I am getting to the point that if I need to start a second life, I best get on with it.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

lastinline,

I've read your posts. I've been married for 24 years to my H. Since Oct. 08...my H delivered the "I love you but no longer in love with you" bomb. I've tried everything to reconnect the marriage.

I would suggest reading Dr. James Dobson's book When Love Must Be Tough. It's a quick read, but very informative regarding when one spouse wants out of the marriage and the other doesn't. You can also go to the Focus on the Family website (he's the founder) and put in the title to get the jest of what the book describes.

It has helped me greatly. I have been separated for almost a month. You will surprised how stepping back can actually let you/relationship move forward.


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## moongoddess (Aug 13, 2009)

I've noticed that usually people who are as driven as you are, they expect too much from everyone around them. It's like "i work my a** off trying to be a good,succesful, person, so everyone else should too". It sounds like you are competing with your wife over who does more, while she's just trying to be loved. I know it seems like she shouldn't have anything to be upset about, but she's the one who has ultimately sacrificed her own identity for your children. I didn't want my kids to be in day care, raised by someone else. So i too stayed home, against my own ambition. It was only when i was "employed" by my husband that i realized i'd never be good enough because he was always re-writing my job description. I just think you are too angry to consider her feelings. Women do not cheat on their families without really needing attention. Yes she made the choice but it is almost impossible to say no to a man who is telling you that you are worth it, when for so long you haven't felt like you are. And you said this other man isn't attractive, not surprising, she wasn't looking for sex, she was looking for love. 
Good luck to you, i hope you can try to understand her side a bit, without the anger clouding your judgement.


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## moongoddess (Aug 13, 2009)

i could be your wife, seriously. Same situation. I know he thinks i'm crazy for wanting out, but i can't help that my feelings are changing. I can't live up to his impossible expectations, i just want to be loved for who i am, and have my husband by my side when i do the things i love. Even if it's hanging out with my old friends from Burger King. Sorry, i just don't think you get it. But you are a great guy! You are really just wanting to be right though, not fix the problem. That would require you admitting you aren't perfect, and i don't know if you're up for the challenge. It's not easy. Guys and girls are different species, we don't care as much about financial success as we do feeling close to our spouse. here's a question...If you were just meeting her, would you pay attention more to the things she cares about? I think you would, because it would entrigue you, after years we somehow get to the point where we think we have the right to say "honey, i don't really care about that". And too a woman, that is crushing.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I just caught reading your post that your wife had an affair 8 months ago. I am surprised that you didn't mention it sooner. That adds another dimension to your posts. It's no longer lack of affection and discontent. Although, that is enough! It's another "level" of the breakdown of the relationship. 

Why did she break off the affair? 

No wonder you have such anger and resentment. I suppose you both do on some level. At least that is what it seems.

Now, she says she wants to separate. What is she doing to move toward that...getting a job, looking at places, etc? Or, do you think that was something said out of anger and no plan?


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

moongoddess said:


> i could be your wife, seriously. Same situation. I know he thinks i'm crazy for wanting out, but i can't help that my feelings are changing. I can't live up to his impossible expectations, i just want to be loved for who i am, and have my husband by my side when i do the things i love. Even if it's hanging out with my old friends from Burger King. Sorry, i just don't think you get it. But you are a great guy! You are really just wanting to be right though, not fix the problem. That would require you admitting you aren't perfect, and i don't know if you're up for the challenge. It's not easy. Guys and girls are different species, we don't care as much about financial success as we do feeling close to our spouse. here's a question...If you were just meeting her, would you pay attention more to the things she cares about? I think you would, because it would intrigue you, after years we somehow get to the point where we think we have the right to say "honey, i don't really care about that". And too a woman, that is crushing.


Wow, who doesn't want to be loved for who they are? I sure do. Maybe relationships are just unhealthy that way, but it seems to me everyone distorts their true selves, just to better accommodate themselves to their mate. In most cases maybe just a little, in some, (in mine) enough that when you look back it's hard to even recognize your own life. As for needing to be perfect, I couldn't disagree with you more. I accept acceptable error. You have to. A quest for perfection invariably winds up in inaction. No, I am a clear believer in the 96%. It's far enough off the A- that it leads you with a margin you may need later, and it is not all consuming to get there. Also, a lot of woman care about financial success. Mine does. It's just that I need to have "more of it in less time" to please her. Gee, I would like that too. Free time, what an attractive concept. If I was just meeting her today, I do not think we would be interested in one another romantically. We are just too different now, with no commonalities in activities, and only few in beliefs. However, as we have a long shared history and children, I would like to save this union. I am just tired, bloodied, and frustrated from my efforts. You are dead on with your statement that I do expect a lot from other people, and is it unfair to expect similar level of commitment to the one that you have given? Is this "I gave this so you should give that" notion too contractual to be considered love? Perhaps, but expectations clearly go both ways, it is just easier to overlook our own flaws and hold our mates accountable for theirs. As for cheating because they need attention, I need attention as well. I show love by working hard, but I receive it through affection. I have had many opportunities to cheat over the course of our marriage, and I have always found the strength to say no. Now, I have learned quite well how to stay out of potentially compromising situations, and I speak continually about my children. It is a very protecting strategy. If my marriage were a product on a store shelf, I wouldn't buy it. The cost is much to high for what little satisfaction I receive. However, I have already bought it, so the question now is how to lower the cost and get more utility from it. Perhaps I'm pragmatic, perhaps I'm a bastard...you decide.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

lastinline said:


> Perhaps a woman out there can give me some ideas on what makes another woman walk away from a husband of 18 years when there isn't abuse or infidelity on his part. When he is a professional, good looking, decent man. Is really being "not fun" sufficient means to snuff a marriage? I am getting to the point where I am ready to say "F" it, let it die. It seems like the harder I try the worse she becomes.


You both seem to be unfufilled at this point in your marriage. If I were home with 6 kids (especially if they are all home for summer break right now), I would imagine I'd have very little time to go out at socialize with other adults. The reunion sounds like something she looked forward to and her fun night out got 'squashed'. I wouldn't call that a reason to end a marriage, I suspect she's been feeling the way she has for some time now. 

You seem to be trying harder to lay out what you want from the marriage, but that won't get anywhere in making her feel better about it. In fact, it will probably cause her to feel resentment (that she is not good enough in your eyes, etc.)

Really trying would mean putting your wants/needs aside for the short term and making her feel loved for who she is today, developing a closer bond, doing things together or as a family that you both enjoy.

As I said before, your anger from her relationship with the other man seems to be pretty strong (totally understandable) but the real question lies within you. Whether you can see where you both drifted apart and whether you can at some point forgive her and move on. If you can both set the goal of reconnecting with one another in the short term, and by that I mean rekindle a friendship, laugh together, enjoy one another's company (save the difficult conversation for another time) you may both realize that there is something there to salvage and work to improve in other areas.


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