# Privacy and boundaries in relationships



## TwoDogs (Jul 29, 2011)

My SO and I have quite different views on an individual's right to privacy within a relationship, and I know when I've read similar topics on here there have been diverging opinions.

Tonight he accused me of "withholding intimacy" because I asserted (what I believe to be) my right to my privacy. A few nights ago he had asked me what I was reading on my e-reader and I said it was a self-help book, without going into further detail -- it was a book about emotional unavailability. I avoided telling him specifically which book it was because in the past he has immediately personalized the subject ("Oh, so you think I'm emotionally unavailable??") and has also mocked me quite nastily for reading self-help books. I did explain this to him at the time and he denied ever doing it -- he says I must have misunderstood him. There have also been times that he has criticized the novels that he's seen me read, saying that they're "stupid". So I'm a bit wary of revealing my reading material!

Bottom line, unless I'm reading a manifesto on how to murder one's SO and escape undetected , I don't see why it matters what I'm reading. Normally he can just glance at the cover of the book and know the answer in a second; he doesn't have that advantage with the e-reader.

So tonight he started in on me about being secretive and said he had just been making conversation, whereas I was "rude and hostile" by refusing to anwer his question about the book I was reading. I explained that, in a general sense, people have the right to not provide information according to their own boundaries -- he seems to feel that posing the question obligates the other person to answer, that he is somehow entitled to have his curiosity satisfied. The same if he asks me "What are you thinking about?".

He got pissed off and walked out. Over this. 

My question: how much privacy can an individual reasonably expect within a relationship?


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Highly personal topic. Me, my opinion is that the only appropriate privacy in a marriage is the privacy you have on a toilet. Everything else is fair game.


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## TwoDogs (Jul 29, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> Highly personal topic. Me, my opinion is that the only appropriate privacy in a marriage is the privacy you have on a toilet. Everything else is fair game.


Eeek. So no privacy of thought?

I think part of the problem stems from the fact that he grew up in a very large family where there was essentially NO privacy (not even on the toilet) and I grew up in a much smaller one, where "prying" into someone else's business was considered impolite.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

You brought up books so I'll address that. If it's a book I do not wish to discuss with my husband I read it when he's not home.

I'm with Sigma if I read it in front of him it's fair game for him to ask me about it.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> Highly personal topic. Me, my opinion is that the only appropriate privacy in a marriage is the privacy you have on a toilet. Everything else is fair game.


i agree, unless of course, you feel you have something to hide.

if you act secretively, dont be surprised when the partner, rightfully so, feels like you are hiding something and becomes suspicious.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TwoDogs,
The fact that you are capable of being artfully funny under duress "bolded item below" tells me you are likely highly sane and rational. 

IMO - there are very few situations in a relationship where you truly are obligated to provide answers. The ebook/what are you thinking examples do not apply. As for his denial of prior bad behavior - be careful if there is a pattern of that. 


>>>>>>>>
*Bottom line, unless I'm reading a manifesto on how to murder one's SO and escape undetected , I don't see why it matters what I'm reading. *





TwoDogs said:


> My SO and I have quite different views on an individual's right to privacy within a relationship, and I know when I've read similar topics on here there have been diverging opinions.
> 
> Tonight he accused me of "withholding intimacy" because I asserted (what I believe to be) my right to my privacy. A few nights ago he had asked me what I was reading on my e-reader and I said it was a self-help book, without going into further detail -- it was a book about emotional unavailability. I avoided telling him specifically which book it was because in the past he has immediately personalized the subject ("Oh, so you think I'm emotionally unavailable??") and has also mocked me quite nastily for reading self-help books. I did explain this to him at the time and he denied ever doing it -- he says I must have misunderstood him. There have also been times that he has criticized the novels that he's seen me read, saying that they're "stupid". So I'm a bit wary of revealing my reading material!
> 
> ...


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

Secondly, this is not a question of privacy or boundaries. You weren't on the toilet. If your husband asks what you are doing on the internet or what you're reading, you should be willing and forthcoming with the answers. Otherwise, you could quite easily begin issues that are matters of trust. The last thing you want is to end up wondering and feeling insecure about who he is talking to or whose blogs he's reading. That's where your "privacy and boundaries" is headed. And when it all starts, you won't possess the presence of mind to remember you are the one who started that mess. Moreover, you called yourself protecting yourself and preventing an argument, but an argument ensued anyway, didn't it? And you weren't so protected afterall.

First and foremost, he makes conversation by asking what you are reading, not by criticizing what you read and thereby (and quite insultingly), criticize you and the reading material. However, what he does (and says) is not nearly so important as what you do about what he does (and says). You took it from him and allowed him to judge, belittle, and berate you, and then you allowed him to entirely dismiss your expressions and feelings about his insults by placing the blame, the offense, and the breakdown in communication squarely on your shoulders. He stormed out of the room like a wounded child. In other words....according to him....you offended yourself AND him. What kind of mess is that?

Your solutions were to first hide the subject matter of your reading material so as to prevent him belittling you over it, and then you submitted to an entirely different (and pointless) argument about privacy and boundaries. You will forever flip, flop, and fly around in the dust of his wrath if you keep getting caught up like this and not stand up for yourself. 

The polite and engaging thing for him to do (since he so sincerely CLAIMS he was only making conversation) would have been to further inquire of your reading material in such a way that he proved himself considerate, interested, and engaging (in conversation). You know, he could have shown a little interest and possibly improve himself by it. Honestly though, I don't know what you are learning if this is example of how you handle things with your husband. Stand up for yourself and rather than constantly trying to sneak and hide to protect yourself from his judgmental and offensive nature, stop him in his tracks when he offends you. 

Teach him how to treat you. If your feelings are hurt when he says these things, then you know you have no business allowing him to say them. Let him know you do not live your life by his permission or approval. Therefore, sharing with him what you are reading does not give him license to make you out to be two feet tall for reading it. Make sure he understands if he has no nice, considerate, and/or engaging responses, then shut the hell up and keep his opinions to himself.


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## TwoDogs (Jul 29, 2011)

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> if you act secretively, dont be surprised when the partner, rightfully so, feels like you are hiding something and becomes suspicious.


SO is a bit of a nosey parker -- not much escapes his notice, and his curiosity. He'll check out the return addresses on my mail if I've left it lying on the table and ask me something like "What was that letter from _____ about?" When the voicemail light is flashing he'll ask who the message is from, and if I don't listen to it in his presence he'll ask why I don't want him to hear it. If my bankbook was out in plain view he'd think nothing of picking it up and flipping through it. All in the name of "intimacy". (Note that we are not married, and don't live together, so all of this takes place in my home)

I used to think nothing of telling him what I was reading, it's no big deal. Until he started taking that information and using it against me. He has ridiculed me in front of other people (a fairly intellectual crowd) for reading a low-brow bestseller. During fights he has told me I'm "f'ed up" and neurotic from reading self-books. When I first joined Al-Anon I was immersing myself in program literature, and he commented derisively every few days to ask me if I was ever going to read anything different. So I just got to a point where I felt that I didn't want to give him any more weapons in my choice of reading material if it was something that would potentially get thrown in my face down the road.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

TwoDogs said:


> SO is a bit of a nosey parker -- not much escapes his notice, and his curiosity. He'll check out the return addresses on my mail if I've left it lying on the table and ask me something like "What was that letter from _____ about?" When the voicemail light is flashing he'll ask who the message is from, and if I don't listen to it in his presence he'll ask why I don't want him to hear it. If my bankbook was out in plain view he'd think nothing of picking it up and flipping through it. All in the name of "intimacy". (Note that we are not married, and don't live together, so all of this takes place in my home)
> 
> I used to think nothing of telling him what I was reading, it's no big deal. Until he started taking that information and using it against me. He has ridiculed me in front of other people (a fairly intellectual crowd) for reading a low-brow bestseller. During fights he has told me I'm "f'ed up" and neurotic from reading self-books. When I first joined Al-Anon I was immersing myself in program literature, and he commented derisively every few days to ask me if I was ever going to read anything different. So I just got to a point where I felt that I didn't want to give him any more weapons in my choice of reading material if it was something that would potentially get thrown in my face down the road.


if you are not married or living together and he is being this way, ask yourself, is this the kind of relationship you you really want? it doesnt sound like it, which is fine, but you should move on that.

when my exgf would come visit me from australia, i had no problems with her asking me things or going through my things.
i loved her and had nothing to hide so i didnt mind one bit.


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## TwoDogs (Jul 29, 2011)

River1977 said:


> Stand up for yourself and rather than constantly trying to sneak and hide to protect yourself from his judgmental and offensive nature, stop him in his tracks when he offends you.
> 
> Teach him how to treat you. If your feelings are hurt when he says these things, then you know you have no business allowing him to say them. Let him know you do not live your life by his permission or approval. Therefore, sharing with him what you are reading does not give him license to make you out to be two feet tall for reading it. Make sure he understands if he has no nice, considerate, and/or engaging responses, then shut the hell up and keep his opinions to himself.


I've tried that in the past and he uses the old "I was only joking" defense or he repeats his exact words in a pleasant, neutral tone instead of the actual mocking tone in which it was first delivered and asks "What's wrong with saying that?" (well, duh, tone is everything!). Then tells me I'm being overly sensitive.

I'd have to say that the biggest problems we've been having in the relationship lately are due to the fact that I am stopping him in his tracks more often instead of being the compliant little doormat that he was used to.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

Sorry, I neglected your use of "SO" and not husband. And, after reading your last two responses, I am happy to know you are not married to this guy.........and you NEVER should be. Break away before you find yourself marrying your misery "all in the name of" love. I urge you to self-help yourself now. He is bordering on abusive, and it will only get worse. In fact, the more you complain and try to prevent him, the more tame he will make himself appear.....until you are married. I know you don't believe me right now, but I hope you are (or quickly become) the kind of person who has the good sense to learn by the mistakes of others. The mistakes of others you ask? Just read these boards. You are not one of a kind. Your SO is not one a kind. Your relationship is not special. Nobody's is. Everyone just manages to convince themselves otherwise. Everything you have shared here are the very common attributes of disaster.


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## TwoDogs (Jul 29, 2011)

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> when my exgf would come visit me from australia, i had no problems with her asking me things or going through my things.
> i loved her and had nothing to hide so i didnt mind one bit.


I really don't have anything to hide -- I have the most boring, mundane life imaginable! -- except when the stuff gets hurled at me later, or gets aired publicly. I mean, I'd have no qualms about telling my friends or coworkers that I'd read a trashy novel, but not to have that information dropped into a conversation about literature as if to discredit me.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

I'm going to leave this thread alone now but responded one more time to make a correction and another suggestion......

1. I stated he was bordering on abusive. I was wrong and misleading. He crossed the border a long time ago and has taken up residence.

2. I hope you will re-read everything you've written here and reeeaaally think about it......because I'm wondering why you're still with this guy. Why aren't you wondering? You can be yet another one who later repeats in remorseful refrains "Why didn't I listen?" Or.......


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## TwoDogs (Jul 29, 2011)

River1977 said:


> Sorry, I neglected your use of "SO" and not husband. And, after reading your last two responses, I am happy to know you are not married to this guy.........and you NEVER should be. Break away before you find yourself marrying your misery "all in the name of" love. I urge you to self-help yourself now. He is bordering on abusive, and it will only get worse. In fact, the more you complain and try to prevent him, the more tame he will make himself appear.....until you are married. I know you don't believe me right now, but I hope you are (or quickly become) the kind of person who has the good sense to learn by the mistakes of others. The mistakes of others you ask? Just read these boards. You are not one of a kind. Your SO is not one a kind. Your relationship is not special. Nobody's is. Everyone just manages to convince themselves otherwise. Everything you have shared here are the very common attributes of disaster.


Thank you. I think I know this already, deep down, and just needed some validation? corroboration?

He's intellectually brilliant and is quite skilled at twisting everything around to point the blame at me -- he can rattle off an exhaustive list of my personal failings. And I've bought into his assessment of me to a large extent. He insists he's a "great guy" and a "good boyfriend".


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## TwoDogs (Jul 29, 2011)

River1977 said:


> 2. I hope you will re-read everything you've written here and reeeaaally think about it......because *I'm wondering why you're still with this guy*. Why aren't you wondering? You can be yet another one who later repeats in remorseful refrains "Why didn't I listen?" Or.......


Oh, I'm wondering! I'm not the same person I was back at the beginning of the relationship when things went smoothly. If I had to pin a label on Old Me, I'd probably say "codependent".

Two years ago, following the death of a parent, I ended up in some very illuminating grief counselling, which turned into individual counselling -- primarily to resolve self-esteem issues. I also joined Al-Anon and am actively working a program.

But it takes a while to unlearn the old behaviours and practice new healthy ones, so the clouds are lifting slowly.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

sigma1299 said:


> Highly personal topic. Me, my opinion is that the only appropriate privacy in a marriage is the privacy you have on a toilet. Everything else is fair game.


I really had to laugh at this comment ...in our world, I can honestly say ....this is the only thing my husband doesn't want to share with me, his moments wiping his ass....seriously. 

Otherwise his world is mine, he offers it willingly, no question is off bounds. 



> I used to think nothing of telling him what I was reading, it's no big deal. Until he started taking that information and using it against me. He has ridiculed me in front of other people (a fairly intellectual crowd) for reading a low-brow bestseller. During fights he has told me I'm "f'ed up" and neurotic from reading self-books. When I first joined Al-Anon I was immersing myself in program literature, and he commented derisively every few days to ask me if I was ever going to read anything different. So I just got to a point where I felt that I didn't want to give him any more weapons in my choice of reading material if it was something that would potentially get thrown in my face down the road.


 I am THE 100% Tranparency woman on this forum- did a thread on it.... I understand it does not work for all (your situation is one reason it can NEVER work)

I want that in my marraige - I want that in a spouse , a willingness to allow me into his world in a trusting manner in all things, and I give from my end as well. We are both approachable, understanding, humble about our own faults & forgiving of each other - always ..... we wouldn't have it any other way, we are on the same page & it is 1 thing (among many) we LOVE about our marriage..

But in your situation....... it is very obvious from what you say here...your Boyfriend has derailed & twisted any hope for you to be more willingly open with him .....due to his belittling you at every turn, by taking your private moments and plastering them as weaknesses to others in your life, he might as well hold up a sign! ....

He has taken your interests to better yourself & threw them in your face - emotionally spitting on you -saying "look at you ...you are defective"... *When accually he is the defective one for needing to belittle you like that *!! This is so very obvious... he has issues. 

He could be the poster boy for...."This is how to act if you want your significant other to become secretive and hide things from you !!"

I am with the others.... move along. 

What is sad to me about this is...because of what HE has done to you & how it has made you feel, pushing up those boundaries even higher...... you may go on to meet a GOOD man who is capable of TRUST in all things, even allowing him access to what you read, how you think....that would *never* belittle you...but just sincerely wants to know & understand you better... but you will hesitate to allow him into your world. 

That is the shame in all of this. 

Anyone who belittles others when they are vulnerable - well - it speaks volumes about THEM ! That is the bottom line in these things...those are the types we need to PUSH out of our lives -if we are seeking a wholesome genuine "give & take" relationship based on mutual respect and love.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I really had to laugh at this comment ...in our world, I can honestly say ....this is the only thing my husband doesn't want to share with me, his moments wiping his ass....seriously.
> 
> Otherwise his world is mine, he offers it willingly, no question is off bounds.
> 
> ...


very well said, as usual.
at least in MOST cases


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

TwoDogs, you will find that on this website most couples share EVERYTHING. Many members feel that if you do not have full disclosure, you must be doing something wrong. 

My husband and I do not read each others mail or listen in on phone calls. He does not hover over me when I am on the computer, nor do I with him. I need a certain amount of privacy to feel comfortable. 

I once dated this fool who kept badgering me about the number of men I slept with. The more I am pushed, the less open I become. I do not like to be forced to do anything, especially from men. "Why are you ashamed??!" I looked him in his eyes and said "There is no shame. It is just none of your damn business, so stop asking me!"


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

My wife was the one early in the marriage who tended to be more inquisitive about the details of my day to day. Wanted to know who called, what was that letter about, and what is the book about that I'm reading. But we made a distinction of not talking about our right to privacy as much as making it a subject of granting trust. I told her that some of this made me feel that she doesn't trust me, and she learned to balance the level of questioning to keep it at a level where she is just interested in my life. It was a balance that worked for us.

I do think that whenever we focus more on ourself, and our right to privacy, instead of the importance of giving trust to each other, it can say alot about the health of the relationship. He made a big mistake when he used your openness to hurt you. It hurt the relationship. I really think that the focus should be on the ways that he has broken something that was working beautifully, from a relationship point of view, if that makes sense. He should work to get you to a place where you aren't threatened by his interest in you.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

Halien said:


> My wife was the one early in the marriage who tended to be more inquisitive about the details of my day to day. Wanted to know who called, what was that letter about, and what is the book about that I'm reading. But we made a distinction of not talking about our right to privacy as much as making it a subject of granting trust. I told her that some of this made me feel that she doesn't trust me, and she learned to balance the level of questioning to keep it at a level where she is just interested in my life. It was a balance that worked for us.
> 
> I do think that whenever we focus more on ourself, and our right to privacy, instead of the importance of giving trust to each other, it can say alot about the health of the relationship. He made a big mistake when he used your openness to hurt you. It hurt the relationship. I really think that the focus should be on the ways that he has broken something that was working beautifully, from a relationship point of view, if that makes sense. He should work to get you to a place where you aren't threatened by his interest in you.


i agree there has to be trust in the relationship.
with that said i also believe things should be open for your partner.

when me and my exgf were together we were open about things.
i never did go through her things but it was comforting to know i was able to with no backlash if i wanted to.

im not sure if she went through mine or not but she was certainly allowed to if she wanted to.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

Okay, I kept reading because I knew someone was going to come along and completely minimize what your guy is doing, and the very LAST thing he is doing is showing any kind of "interest in you." That is a bunch of crock. The guy is an abuser, and you are being abused. Please read the link below. You will find him written on every line. 

Romeo's Bleeding - When Mr. Right Turns Out To Be Mr. Wrong


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

River1977 said:


> Okay, I kept reading because I knew someone was going to come along and completely minimize what your guy is doing, and the very LAST thing he is doing is showing any kind of "interest in you." That is a bunch of crock. The guy is an abuser, and you are being abused. Please read the link below. You will find him written on every line.
> 
> Romeo's Bleeding - When Mr. Right Turns Out To Be Mr. Wrong


i believe this to be true.
if used in the wrong way it is a terrible thing.
and he is doing that with you op.
i cant figure out why youre still there.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> i agree there has to be trust in the relationship.
> with that said i also believe things should be open for your partner.
> 
> when me and my exgf were together we were open about things.
> ...


I do agree that there should be openness. Complete openness. I would think that most people discuss all but the fine points before choosing to marry, also. But there are usually underlying issues when privacy becomes a concern in small issues, like this. Instead of focusing on privacy, focus on what is hurting the relationship, keeping unity from thriving.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

Halien said:


> I do agree that there should be openness. Complete openness. I would think that most people discuss all but the fine points before choosing to marry, also. But there are usually underlying issues when privacy becomes a concern in small issues, like this. Instead of focusing on privacy, focus on what is hurting the relationship, keeping unity from thriving.


true


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

TwoDogs said:


> I’m just posting to get an idea of what is “normal” in relationships because I’m unsure of myself in this area. Sorry if this is long, I’m trying to give an accurate picture.
> 
> Background: SO and I have been in a relationship for a little over 3 years; we are in our late forties. We do not live together, nor do we have plans to do so in the foreseeable future. We both work, although he earns about half of what I do. In addition, he has had some periods of unemployment and underemployment in the past, plus overuse of credit (high debt), so he is in a position of just barely keeping his head above water financially. In contrast, I was raised to value avoiding debt, frugal spending, and an emphasis on saving so my financial situation at this stage of life is pretty good. However, my expenses are naturally higher than his – I own my home and he is a renter, so my regular housing costs are triple what his are, plus upkeep and maintenance. He doesn’t own a car (he has never been a licensed driver) and I do, so I have all the expense associated with that as well. Neither of us have children.
> 
> ...



Why are you still with the guy? What is it that’s keeping you with him?


He wont ever change. Least not while you are with him. That’s guaranteed.



TwoDogs said:


> My SO and I have quite different views on an individual's right to privacy within a relationship, and I know when I've read similar topics on here there have been diverging opinions.
> 
> Tonight he accused me of "withholding intimacy" because I asserted (what I believe to be) my right to my privacy. A few nights ago he had asked me what I was reading on my e-reader and I said it was a self-help book, without going into further detail -- it was a book about emotional unavailability. I avoided telling him specifically which book it was because in the past he has immediately personalized the subject ("Oh, so you think I'm emotionally unavailable??") and has also mocked me quite nastily for reading self-help books. I did explain this to him at the time and he denied ever doing it -- he says I must have misunderstood him. There have also been times that he has criticized the novels that he's seen me read, saying that they're "stupid". So I'm a bit wary of revealing my reading material!
> 
> ...


Healthy relationships have no privacy because there are no secrets and they have no secrets because there is nothing to hide and no reason to hide it. You have a relationship that is very far from healthy. It will never change because your partner will never change no matter how much you moan and complain about him.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Okay there is intimacy and there is intrusive, abusive behavior.

This guy falls in the latter category.

I stand corrected with the new info.


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## KJ5000 (May 29, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> Highly personal topic. Me, my opinion is that the only appropriate privacy in a marriage is the privacy you have on a toilet. Everything else is fair game.


Agreed. I have Very old school ideas about marriage. We're MARRIED not two single people that just happen to live under the same roof. All this new found privacy some married folks seem to need makes me wonder if they might not be better suited for an open marriage.


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## TwoDogs (Jul 29, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Why are you still with the guy? What is it that’s keeping you with him?
> 
> 
> He wont ever change. Least not while you are with him. That’s guaranteed.


Good question! I can't put my finger on the answer because it seems to be multi-faceted.

Since that post about the money issues I've actually broken off the relationship twice but he keeps worming his way back in, mainly by contacting me to ask me to justify why I'm breaking up with him (this is where the "I'm a great guy!" schtick comes in). I know that part of it is the amount of time we've spent in each other's company, which leaves a huge gaping void when I dump him... I end up feeling vulnerable and allow myself to get sucked back in.

Oddly enough, he's been carrying his own weight financially much better since the first breakup. Which may be a result of the fact that he has stopped paying his brother back the money that he borrowed, since brother is going through some serious mental health issues and isn't in any shape to call him on it right now. (Yeah, nice guy, huh?)



AFEH said:


> Healthy relationships have no privacy because there are no secrets and they have no secrets because there is nothing to hide and no reason to hide it. You have a relationship that is very far from healthy. It will never change because your partner will never change no matter how much you moan and complain about him.


I know this, I really do. I think what I needed was some reassurance that "it's not you, it's him" because he's been so damned skilful at convincing me "it's not him, it's me" all along.

River, I did read Romeo is Bleeding.... he's a Narcissistic Controller, to a T. With some passive-aggressive stuff thrown in there for a little variety.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

*Instead of focusing on privacy, focus on what is hurting the relationship, keeping unity from thriving. *

No offense intended... but no freakin way. Don't waste your time trying to figure out how to keep the unity thriving.... 

You aren't married, you don't live together, so BREAK UP. Period. 

Disrespect is a DEAL BREAKER. It just shows how (for whatever reason) that person doesn't not connect, or truly understand real intimacy. 

Kick him to the curb.

And it's not about him being too nosey. Its about him belittling you. There is no room in a normal, loving relationship for that. Ever.


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## TwoDogs (Jul 29, 2011)

SunnyT said:


> Disrespect is a DEAL BREAKER. ....
> And it's not about him being too nosey. Its about him belittling you. There is no room in a normal, loving relationship for that. Ever.


I've actually told him versions of that at several points. He counters by sneering at my ideas of what is normal, tells me that it may be true for "perfect" people but "normal" people sometimes do behave like that, and calls me "overly sensitive". (The irony is that when he's having one of his emotional self-pity binges and I don't react the way he wants me to, I then get accused of being "insensitive"!)

As long as I didn't open up to anyone about the negative things in the relationship, he was able to convince me that I was in the wrong for my views.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

TwoDogs said:


> Good question! I can't put my finger on the answer because it seems to be multi-faceted.
> 
> Since that post about the money issues I've actually broken off the relationship twice but he keeps worming his way back in, mainly by contacting me to ask me to justify why I'm breaking up with him (this is where the "I'm a great guy!" schtick comes in). I know that part of it is the amount of time we've spent in each other's company, which leaves a huge gaping void when I dump him... I end up feeling vulnerable and allow myself to get sucked back in.


Breaking up is really hard. I was once 2.5 years with a guy but 1.5 of that was spent trying to break up with him. He was a nice guy, and I cared deeply for him. We just didn't have any kind of relationship, and it wasn't getting any better no matter what.

Another guy I dated soon proved himself to be just like your guy and even worse. After knowing him my whole life and thinking he was a really, really great person, it only took me a few months after we got together romantically to realize he was a terrible and abusive boyfriend. He was also useless in bed, which I thought we could have worked on in time, but I sure wasn't willing to stick around and be mistreated. I broke it off after 3 months and 1 day. No amount of talking and begging was going to change my mind.

The void that follows and the uncertainty is part of breaking up, and breaking up is a part of meeting and dating. And, that's where the problem lies. Most people, especially women it appears, don't seem to understand what dating is for. Most of us meet a man and immediately begin flying down the aisle to the altar. The purpose of dating is not to meet a person and decide you will get him to marry you. The purpose of dating is spend the time trying to determine if he is the man for you, the man you WANT to be married to. Usually, we get hung up on what we hope the relationship will be, rather than recognizing what it actually is. 

If you keep a level head, you will realize you are in love with hope and not him. Just in love with love itself, as they say. Breaking up is especially difficult if you don't resign yourself to it. Talk yourself into not wanting to be with him. Remind yourself he is not good for you. Be determined to want better for yourself. In the very least, love yourself enough not to put up with being treated this way. You don't need him tooting his own horn about how great he is. You already know he is not.

Breaking up does not require self esteem. You seem to think your issue with self esteem plays a role, but it doesn't. It's just another part of life you have to snot through (cry and sniff a lot) like all the other difficult times. You will quickly realize what I'm talking about - that your only problem is the void of wanting (wanting to be loved and wanting to be in love) and that being alone is not so bad. You'll certainly be free and available to find what you want.


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## Lydia (Sep 4, 2011)

If you are married, there is NO right to privacy, in my opinion. Secrets do not belong in a marriage, even if it's just the simple title of a self-help book. However, neither does disrespect which is what your SO is doing by mocking/belittling you.

If you aren't married/serious or living together, then I feel you have a right to a limited privacy, including what kind of book you are reading.

Your background info seems familiar... Have you posted before?

Like the other posters have asked, why are you still with him? He doesn't sound like a very...charming individual. What would turn me off the most is him not pitching in and spending most times at your house. Sounds like he's mooching off of you & belittling your personal business in the process.


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## Unhappy2011 (Dec 28, 2011)

So you think your SO is emotionally unavailabe and you were reading an ebook about that and you didn't want him to know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

If you want privacy stay single

In a relationship, you are entitled to your privacy---its when you get married, and take your vows to each other, that the 2 of you have agreed to be as one, and be open books to each other-----so if you want privacy DO NOT MARRY


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## TwoDogs (Jul 29, 2011)

Unhappy2011 said:


> So you think your SO is emotionally unavailabe and you were reading an ebook about that and you didn't want him to know.


Other way around, he often tells me I'm "emotionally cheap", distant, etc and I was investigating to see if his accusations had any merit.

I just didn't want to admit that and go through the daily barrage of "What does the book say you have to do to fix yourself? Are you doing it?".

When I have more time later I'll post a recent scenario as an example.


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## TwoDogs (Jul 29, 2011)

Lydia said:


> Your background info seems familiar... Have you posted before?


I've only ever posted here with the TwoDogs name but I've been around a few months.

There was a woman posting recently about a similar situation with her fiance that really resonated with me. Actually, there have been a few that sounded familiar... nice to know I'm not the only one!



Lydia said:


> Like the other posters have asked, why are you still with him? He doesn't sound like a very...charming individual. What would turn me off the most is him not pitching in and spending most times at your house. Sounds like he's mooching off of you & belittling your personal business in the process.


He can be charming at times, he's not all bad. Just that the un-charming has become more and more apparent as I've been becoming less of a doormat. Things between us were peachy-keen as long as everything went his way and I didn't rock the boat.


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## TwoDogs (Jul 29, 2011)

River1977 said:


> You will quickly realize what I'm talking about - that *your only problem is the void of wanting (wanting to be loved and wanting to be in love)* and that being alone is not so bad. You'll certainly be free and available to find what you want.


Yep, that's it in a nutshell.

Awesome break-up pep talk, River! :smthumbup:


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## TwoDogs (Jul 29, 2011)

Alright, as promised (threatened, lol) here are two examples of what I see as his manipulative behaviour.

Episode 1

As I've mentioned, he doesn't drive. A few months ago we'd arranged that I would pick him up at his place at 5:00 and we'd go out for dinner.

Just as I was about to leave my house to drive to his, I got a call to go and pick up a key that I needed early the next morning to set up for an event that I was volunteering at. SO was aware of this, and knew I needed to connect with the woman who had that key. I arranged to pick it up on my way to SO's house. I phoned to tell him I'd be late, but got voice mail so I left a message saying, "I'm going to be a few minutes late... I'm going to pick up the key from R's house.... she's over by my dad's place [to give him an idea of the driving distance]".

I pulled into SO's driveway at exactly 5:22, 22 minutes late. He comes out of the house and I can see by his face that he is absolutely furious. He got in the car and I said with horror, "OMG, you didn't get my voicemail message!" He informed me that he did get it but that I'd said I would be a few minutes late -- not 24 minutes late (2 minutes have now elapsed since my arrival) -- and "THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE!!" I apologized several times, and he just kept insisting that "a few" minutes wasn't 24 minutes. He was so white-hot angry that I asked him if he just wanted to get out of the car and forget the evening; he declined. Eventually he apologized for getting angry, saying he'd had a "bad day".... but I was still late.

So, yeah, I screwed up by being late but I don't think I was the evil woman incarnate that he made me out to be, particularly considering his 24 minute wait was spent in the comfort of his own home with full cable TV, internet, etc. Fairly typical for him to brush off an extreme overreaction (in my view) as the effects of a bad day.

Episode 2

This just happened last week. He works from home, basically part-time, while I have a typical 40 hour/week office job. It has long been my habit to send him a brief hi/good morning email as soon as I get into work at 8:30 -- he responds when he gets out of bed.

Things are in complete upheaval at work right now, everything is upside-down.... I didn't get a response from him, but didn't think much of it... figured he was a) sleeping in b) busy with work c) having problems with his email (this happens fairly often). I was still getting internal emails (within the office) so I didn't suspect a problem with my own email.

I went to talk to a colleague on another floor, then I left the office for about an hour, so I didn't realize that he still hadn't responded until I returned to the office around 11:30. Within a few minutes the phone rang, and it was him -- telling me he was soooo worried, he hadn't heard from me, he'd thought something bad had happened to me. I asked, "Didn't you get the emails I sent you? I sent you two," and he said he hadn't. At the same time I overhear a coworker nearby commenting that she didn't seem to be getting many emails, and it started to dawn on me that perhaps there was a problem with our _external_ email. I mentioned this to him, and said that it hadn't occurred to me that there might have been a problem as I had still been getting internal emails all morning and apparently IT hadn't announced anything. I also wondered why he wouldn't have thought that there might have been an email problem, as this has happened a few times in the past. Last thing he said was, "Visit at lunch if you get a chance" and I said I'd see how things went. Issue resolved, right? (Wrong!)

I ended up leaving for lunch later than usual and had some errands to run. Just as I was finishing up, he sent me a text: "All is still quiet at 1:18. Not having a good day here." [Normally I would call him around 1:00 if I was going to drop by at lunch] I called him, asked if he still wanted a visit, he said yes. As I almost always do, I picked up a coffee and a snack for him. I got there and he was like a thundercloud -- sullen and low, seething anger. He repeated how he wasn't having a good day. I asked him what was wrong (thinking there must be something else), and he reiterated that he'd been really anxious worrying about me. And went on to say that I "should have known something was wrong with the email" when I didn't get a response from him (apparently forgetting that he sleeps in past 8:30 fairly often so it's not that unusual) and should have found an alternate means of contacting him so he didn't worry. This is TWO HOURS after he had learned that I'm alive and well!

I said I was sorry that he'd worried, explained again how I'd still been getting some emails so things looked pretty normal to me, and how I wasn't really paying attention to whether or not he'd replied because things were so nutty in the office (he's aware of this) and I'd been out for a while anyway.

I returned to work, and noticed that a couple more texts had come in after his 1:18 text (texts are sometimes delayed from his phone) saying: "Sorry, just too much worry, but with the same annoying undertone that you don't really care." and "Screw this. I'm in a rotten mood now."

External email capability had been restored by this time, and I got a couple emails from him again accusing me of "not caring enough" about his anguished morning of worrying and not showing him enough "TLC". I thought the whole thing was completely over the top ridiculous, but certainly didn't tell him that.

So my external email fails, and he goes overboard with his Worst Case Scenario thinking -- and I get demonized for not feeding his emotional overdose. :scratchhead:


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

hes a nut case.

and youre still there because....


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

A girlfriend asked me to pick her up from the airport and take her home. The airport was 30 minutes from me, and she lived an hour and a half from me in the opposite direction - a total 4 hour trip. I really didn't want to do it because I HATE that much driving, but she's a friend, so I said okay and told her to meet me at baggage pickup. My boyfriend (different guy from the other two I mentioned) knew the whole story and was expecting me to come by afterward.

When I arrived at the airport, she wasn't at baggage pickup, so I went to check that her plane arrived on time, which it had. This was quite a trek and then back again to BP, but she still wasn't there. I called my boyfriend from a pay phone (had left my cell in his car earlier) to see if by chance she had called, and he told me no. She still wasn't there 30 minutes later, so I called him again. Still no. I went searching the airport for her. Quite some time later I called him again, and she had called wondering where I was because she was waiting at BP but never saw me. He told her I was indeed there and to stay right where she was in case I called him back. That way, he could tell me exactly where to find her. She insisted she had been waiting all the long at BP.

How could we keep missing each other if we both were at baggage pickup? I was waiting and looking inside, while she was outside. Outside was right at the door of baggage pickup. It made more sense, as she was trying to prevent me from having to park and come inside for her. The problem was she didn't tell me she would be outside, and I didn't tell her to wait for me inside. We both had our individual images of what/where BP actually was without really communicating. When we finally found each other, it was still quite some time later (nearly 90 minutes at the airport). I was incensed and extremely tired but tried to make the trip pleasant. I wanted to blame her but realized I was equally to blame. 

Wouldn't you know that just as I dropped her home, a major snow storm began. So, my 1.5 hour trip back home ended up taking 3 hours. My total trip ended up being almost 7 hours. I was totally exhausted and mentally drained.

When I arrived at boyfriend's house, he was waiting with great anticipation, as he'd been worrying all that while. Not only was he in the middle of the two us being unable to find each other, but I was much, much later than expected. He quickly opened the door, but then.....he......just.....stood there. I waited for him to step aside and let me in, but.....he.....just.....stood there like a limp tree planted in the way. I didn't know what to say or what was going on. Finally, I said something, which was "move." I was soooo tired and in my perplexity of these awkward moments, I didn't even have the presence of mind to say "excuse me" or anything else. "Move" is what came out, with no particular inflection or emphasis. I was just too tired and wanted to get inside to sit down, lay down, die - it didn't much matter at the time LOL. 

He responded with "MOVE???!!!! Is that all you have to say to me?" He finally stepped aside and went off on some kind of rampage about how worried he had been and how inconsiderate I was for not hugging him when he flew open the door. 

HUH???

The overly-dramatic-movie-script ending he had imagined was that I was supposed to jump into his arms at that moment, relieving him of all his worry and suffering. After about 10 minutes of his madness and unbelievably realizing I was being forced to actually focus my energy and attention on him, I yelled back reminding him that the whole thing was MY ordeal and if anyone should be hugged at its ending, it is ME. I told him I was tired of him ALWAYS turning every single event into being all about him and made him see how ridiculous he was being.

Of course, nothing I said mattered one bit. He apologized, but the next time was soon to come. Just like your guy, there was something wrong with him. The way he turned this around may seem innocent enough, but he usually twisted everything into something awful, disastrous, and, of course, being all about him. I was the demon culprit for allowing it to happen.

Well, that guy lasted about 3 or 4 months, if that long. I grew soooo tired of him. Aren't you exhausted yet?

It's beginning to sound like your guy is several of my rejects all rolled in one. Girl, you are stronger than you think because goodness knows I could never tolerate all that you put up with.


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

My work in progress marriage is nuts but you have a whole thing of sh!t going on here. If my husband can not return a text because he has things to do I am not sitting at home thinking he died, becoming an emotional reck, because I know he is at work. If I am going to be late and he knows it he does not count down the seconds I am running behind.

You have a controll freak on your hands and I do believe that if you were to marry this man that you would soon be no longer working and your whole life will be living in fear of making him un happy. Abusive people can seem nice as heck, like a charming man to it is how they work.

I hate to say this but in your case I have to. Leave him. He sounds very abusive and manipulating and you can see that in just the few post you have put in here. I am sorry but that is my opinion. He is not good so you should go.


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## TwoDogs (Jul 29, 2011)

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> hes a nut case.
> 
> and youre still there because....


I'm the boiled frog. Had he acted like this in the first few months we were together, I wouldn't be writing this now. But the Crazy didn't start coming out for a couple of years.


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## TwoDogs (Jul 29, 2011)

River1977 said:


> I told him I was tired of him ALWAYS turning every single event into being all about him and made him see how ridiculous he was being.
> 
> Of course, nothing I said mattered one bit. He apologized, but the next time was soon to come. Just like your guy, there was something wrong with him. The way he turned this around may seem innocent enough, but he usually twisted everything into something awful, disastrous, and, of course, being all about him. I was the demon culprit for allowing it to happen.
> 
> Well, that guy lasted about 3 or 4 months, if that long. I grew soooo tired of him. Aren't you exhausted yet?


I'm beyond exhausted. We're disintegrating rapidly at this point.

Unlike you, I can't make him see that he's being irrational and ridiculous and self-absorbed -- he turns it around so I'm the one who's insensitive or coldhearted because I won't play along with his vision of his victimhood. Arrghhh!


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I really had to laugh at this comment ...in our world, I can honestly say ....this is the only thing my husband doesn't want to share with me, his moments wiping his ass....seriously.
> 
> Otherwise his world is mine, he offers it willingly, no question is off bounds.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't even attempt to add to this. SA nails it as always!


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

Stonewall said:


> I wouldn't even attempt to add to this. SA nails it as always!


she ALWAYS does! 

(unless its about porn)


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

River1977 said:


> A girlfriend asked me to pick her up from the airport and take her home. The airport was 30 minutes from me, and she lived an hour and a half from me in the opposite direction - a total 4 hour trip. I really didn't want to do it because I HATE that much driving, but she's a friend, so I said okay and told her to meet me at baggage pickup. My boyfriend (different guy from the other two I mentioned) knew the whole story and was expecting me to come by afterward.
> 
> When I arrived at the airport, she wasn't at baggage pickup, so I went to check that her plane arrived on time, which it had. This was quite a trek and then back again to BP, but she still wasn't there. I called my boyfriend from a pay phone (had left my cell in his car earlier) to see if by chance she had called, and he told me no. She still wasn't there 30 minutes later, so I called him again. Still no. I went searching the airport for her. Quite some time later I called him again, and she had called wondering where I was because she was waiting at BP but never saw me. He told her I was indeed there and to stay right where she was in case I called him back. That way, he could tell me exactly where to find her. She insisted she had been waiting all the long at BP.
> 
> ...


Get a cell phone. Get your airport friend to get a cell phone. Teach your boyfriend how to use a phone.


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