# Need advice on sexual mismatch.



## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Hi. I’m new here and this is my first post. I’ve done a lot of reading, and my situation seems to be unfortunately common on these boards. While I don’t expect to post something original, I do need to get some support and the people on this board seem to be fair and helpful. It’s hard to distill one’s marital problems into a succinct script, so this might be rather long. Sorry, I hope you can get through it and give me input.

The problem: The lack of quality and quantity of sex in our marriage is driving me crazy. 

Background: I’m 30 and my wife is 29. We have a 5 yr. old girl. We get along well, fight infrequently, and try our best to support each other. I try very hard to be considerate of her in all things. I probably do at least 50% of the house work. I take excellent care of our daughter. I work 45-50 hours per week and come home and do dishes, straighten up, laundry, whatever needs done. She works part time, 24 hours per week on nightshift, and also takes care of our daughter while I’m at work (on days she isn’t sleeping/working). We are both fit. I work out 7 days/wk for 90 minutes a day and am in excellent shape. She doesn’t work out at all, but maintains a good figure. We’ve been married 7 years, together for 9. 

She suffers from depression and has been on AD at times (no longer). Sometime shortly after we got married our sex life slowed way down. Before we were married it was every day, she couldn’t get enough. After marriage, we went from multiple times a week to multiple times per month. Then we had our daughter and it came to a crawl. Maybe once or twice per month, duty sex. She had post-partum depression, and so the AD’s came, and then she had sexual dysfunction. It was very frustrating for us both, she couldn’t orgasm at all for months. Somewhere during those years we lost the emotional connection that we once had. We focused less on each other and more on our daughter. We still touched, still cuddled, but sex wasn’t on her mind. It was a regular topic of our arguments. I want to be wanted, want her to want me the way I want her. I have passion for this woman, I want to please her without boundaries. But she says she just doesn’t care about sex, that it’s a fantasy of mine to want this steamy side to our relationship. She said she was sheltered growing up, and that sex wasn’t talked about. She doesn’t masturbate, doesn’t think lusty thoughts during the day. I’m HD, always have been. 

Communication is another issue. In the past she would not deal with confrontation appropriately. She would ball up and shut down. So, we never talk about sex, it makes her uncomfortable. It put us in this little box that she can control. Don’t talk about sex, only these pre-approved positions, don’t go down on me unless I’m freshly showered, she never initiates sex, etc. She has these body image issues that are so unfounded. Granted, when we were dating she was 118 lbs. with abs and she’s 130 lbs now, but I have to say that I find her very attractive and sexy. I tell her all the time and try to boost her confidence. She has none. She sees herself as grossly out of shape. I keep trying to reinforce with her that if you are unhappy you can change, but be confident in who you are in the moment and focus on the change you want to see over time. I have experience in this department as I was very overweight and got in great shape after our daughter was born. She hasn’t made any real effort to lose weight or get in better shape in years. She stopped wearing makeup except special occasions and her clothing went from dressy to frumpy. Now, I am not hung up on all that, I want her to be comfortable in her own skin above all else, I find her incredibly attractive, and I don’t need to have a wife that is done up to the nines all the time. However, she just doesn’t have any confidence to save her poor life. I wish I could gift it to her.

So, a few months ago I started to get really depressed and resentful. I felt like I put all this energy into being a good partner and tending to her needs and she could care less about mine. I would come home and see the house a wreck where she hadn’t done much of anything all day. And where I could chill out and cope before, I just felt pi$$y and argumentative. I kind of checked out, she checked out and we stopped communicating much at all really. Physical contact was not there like it should be and she started giving me these god-awful “peck” kisses before bed that really frustrated me. I was completely depressed with the hopelessness of where we were at. I started to distance myself emotionally and do my own thing more. I considered for the first time that I might be able to leave her and that I could still be a good dad. However, I still loved this girl, and I am not a quitter.

So, I started a conversation that ended up being a fight. She wanted another baby, and I couldn't even entertain the thought of it when I was completely frustrated and considering walking away. I told her no to another baby at this time. I asked that we try to connect more emotionally and physically and revisit it later. In the end we agreed to both work on things. We started trying to connect, communicate, touch, etc. I got this idea to take her on a weekend getaway, and we planned that for a month. We had a good time, but it felt like I took my roommate with me on vacation. We had one session of duty sex that she put off until she was good and tired, and there was no passion despite the perfect conditions of our romantic trip and max effort on my part. I came home complete defeated. Meanwhile she thought things were just peachy. In the week after I was just falling apart inside. I felt like I was doomed to a lifetime of a passionless, going through the motions, sex-starved marriage. I know that some people have matching baseline libidos, and real passion for each other. I felt like it was super hard to stay emotionally connected without that for me. And I really considered leaving.

Instead, I sat her down and we had a very frank conversation. I told her that I needed an emotional and physical connection with her, and that I was not satisfied being her roommate. I told her that if she couldn’t invest the energy to try to achieve this in our marriage with me that I must leave her. I said it and meant it and she was completely devastated. 

In the aftermath, she felt hopeless. She asked for my ring back (I didn’t give it to her). She said that all I wanted was sex, and that I was selfish. She called my parents and asked them for advice in great sobs. She called me at work on a Friday hysterically screaming “I don’t know what to do.” So, I left work and consoled her and we agreed we would do whatever it takes. I felt bad for pushing her that far, but I made a decision that I wouldn’t live like that anymore. 

In the two weeks following, we did a complete 180. What I hoped to accomplish on the trip we did then. We texted each other long love notes, we held hands, we snuggled on the couch, we were better parents to our daughter, etc. We had sex every single day, sometimes multiple times per day, and she was present, uninhibited, experimental, orgasmic, and PASSIONATE. We talked about what she really needs emotionally to feel like having sex, and it clicked with me how I wasn’t providing it before. She didn’t care that I kept up the laundry, she wanted to talk and touch and be very close outside the bedroom before she felt anything like having sex. We were both in heaven and we talked endlessly about everything, especially the turn in our marriage. We said to ourselves, “How did we ever get to that horrible place in our marriage, we never want to go back.” 

Then she worked one night, and we couldn’t have sex. Then the next day I let her sleep in, and I thought maybe we should cool it, I won’t initiate because every day is just not sustainable. She didn't either. Instead we were very lovey and watched a movie snuggled up to each other. Then the next day she was clearly in a mood. I was able to help her shake it, and we had a pretty good day. We flirted and ended up having sex that night. However, it was back to our duty sex. There was no passion on her part. She was trying, but couldn’t orgasm. This was semi-rare even before our “awakening.” So, we just stopped. I tried to comfort her, tell her it’s OK, and that we’ll try again another day. We cuddled and that was that. She said she’d make it up to me. I could tell she was trying. 

Then yesterday we had another good day. I let her sleep for 13+ hours so that she would feel rested. We were affectionate with each other, and she made several hints that it was on. We put our daughter to bed early and started to make love. It just didn’t happen. She was in her head again, not focused on being present, not breathing right, not enjoying herself, quiet. We tried for a long time, nearly an hour, and it just wasn’t happening no matter what I did. I tried to get her to let me just make her have an orgasm orally, but she wouldn’t have it. “It’s too messy now.” She told me to just go myself and I said no, that it wasn’t the only point of it. She got up in a huff and was emotional and angry. We settled down and were affectionate towards each other, but my mind was racing so I got up and watched something on TV. 

Today I texted her that I loved her, but I was scared we were going to go backwards. I told her to not give up, that we need to keep trying. She texted me back something very positive, that we would keep going until we got it right. 

She’s the love of my life, and we’re connecting in new ways that we never have before. Our attitudes towards each other are so kind and loving now, but I am deathly afraid of losing ground. With everything seeming to hinge on this issue, I can’t imagine that added pressure will help the situation. I hope to look back at this as a positive turning point in which we figured it out and overcame our sexual issues. But sometimes it still feels hopeless. Her attitude is very different now, more positive, so I think we are holding it together. Why is this so difficult? It’s just sex and it comes naturally to me. But for her it’s something really hard, just out of reach, like she can’t let go and enjoy herself with me. I’m longing for her to just release these limitations she puts on herself that are getting in the way of us firing on all cylinders. I am positive, though, because we’ve made such progress in a short period of time and we’re actually communicating. 

Does anyone have any feedback for me, opinions on what I can do to improve our situation?

Thanks for listening.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Few questions:

How is it that you work 45-50 hours a week, work out for 90 minutes a day, do all these chores, and take excellent care of your daughter? Something doesn't add up there. I'm thinking if that's really true you have very little time for your wife and when you do you want sex, so that may be why she feels like that's all you want. 

You said she works nights. My dad worked nights for years and it really messes up your sleep patterns, so she's probably chronically exhausted. That will contribute to depression and not feeling well. 


In my opinion you're way too focused on sex. Your lives aren't lining up well to support a marriage. You have a regular work schedule, spend a ton of time at the gym, and probably feel great. Your wife has a messed up sleep schedule, doesn't exercise, likely doesn't feel well, has a hb pressuring her not only for sex but enthusiastic sex, 
and doesn't know how handle it. Threatening to divorce a drowning person if they don't put out enthusiastically is only going to sink them further.

First thing I'd recommend is that she find another job that allows her to sleep normally. Then take a good hard look at how much time you're really spending together. Once you do that revisit the sex. Once she's feeling well and you're spending time together you'll have more to work with. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Lifeistooshort,

Thank you for your reply. I'll try to answer honestly. I get up at 5:00am every day so that I can workout and get to work at a good time. I sacrifice sleep so that I can get my workday over with and get home. I was unhealthy for a long time so I'm committed to doing whatever it takes to make that happen. I get home at 4:30 to 5:00 and we are together every day (except two nights/wk when she works) for 6 hours until bedtime. Also every weekend unless she has to work one of those days. We are together more than most couples I know. 

Nightshift is hard on her, no doubt. She will often get up early to be with us and feels rough. Other times I try to get her to sleep in. Overall, I get less sleep than her. She needs more sleep than me though. 

I've begged her to get a different job. They are readily available in her field at her current employer. She's comfortable doing nightshift because it's less stressful. She feels good about her capabilities where she's at. She tried another department a few years back and she felt overwhelmed. She did days before where she's at and was also overwhelmed. I've agreed to let it go. She doesn't want to change this even though she knows it has a negative affect on her wellbeing. I do feel well and have energy in spades above her. But I always have. 

Lately her schedule has been good and she has week long stretches off. She gets 9-10 hours of sleep per night. I see what you're saying, but in times like this that doesn't really apply. And I feel like we spend a lot of time together. 

We have been really connecting lately so I'm not sure why she's having this block. 

Yes, I'm focused on sex because it's been a problem in the past and I feel like I need it for multiple reasons. My drive is high, but I also love how connected I feel to my wife when it isn't an afterthought, but a real expression of our love for each other.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

You sound like a great husband, and I agree you guys spend a lot more time together than a lot of couples your age, with kids, etc.

I can relate to your wife in some ways. My STBX was a lot like you and I was a lot like her when we were your ages. Except he'd get super super angry about it and accused me of never wanting sex when it was at least 3 times a week.

Here's what I wish he would have been more like: Don't expect long love-making sessions every.single.time. It's going to put so much more pressure on her. When she says it's ok if it's just for you, SHE MEANS IT. I have a girlfriend who calls it "fast food" as opposed to a "gourmet meal." It doesn't always have to be gourmet. Do you want it to be sometimes? Of course, because you need to feel desired. But maybe just require the gourmet meal less, accept fast food more, keep showing affection in non-sexual ways (kudos to you for doing that), and maybe she'll start to whip up those gourmet meals more often . 

I started to feel like all I was to my STBX was a "body" because he was so fixated on sex. He really was NOT all that interested in anything else about me, not complimentary, etc. But you don't want her to get to that place. 

As far as her depression....I'm sure that could have something to do with it as well (and her body image). Not sure ADs would be the answer since they have that pesky little side effect.  (I get it....I'm on one).


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

P.S. And what I wish I'd realized when I was her age with a sexually needy husband is how much sex actually is important for the man to feel connected and not just get off. It takes the man making sure the woman is loved for reasons other than her body, though, of course. Back then, I think I did look down on him for have such basic/primal needs and making me feel like just another hole. But I take some responsibility for that in not seeing how much it did make him feel connected to me.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

You've already done what many couples have been unable to do... you "turned the corner" on a very bad dynamic and have reconnected in a positive way.

Stop fearing that it will all go backwards. Fear translates to insecurity and weakness. If she perceives you as weak and insecure, it WILL go backwards.

Keep doing what you did to turn this around -- sending sexy text messages, snuggling up for movies, and pay attention to her need for emotional connection vs. keeping up with laundry and chores.

Don't put so much pressure on yourself to make EVERY sexual encounter earth-shattering. Sometimes sex is just... sex. "Quickie" sex is still very important for bonding and can be quite satisfying .

Why don't you two start a journal together? You leave her a note, and then she replies back. You can write about all the positive changes and how happy it makes you feel. And it can be immensely rewarding towards sharing intimacy, and your inner-most thoughts. And keep you feeling connected, especially since you work opposite hours.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Nothing wrong with you wanting sex, that's normal and good for a marriage. I just think approaching it from that perspective isn't going to get you what you want because she doesn't have it to give. That's why she gets so frustrated. 

The night shift isn't working for her. Period. That's your angle: honey, I know you like it but it's not working for us. You don't feel well, sleep schedule is messed up, it's interfering with our sex life, so we need to find an alternative for you. Let's look at options. 

So now the sex is part of the greater package of her well being and the marriage well being. It's also a clear thing to approach; demanding more sex or you're divorcing isn't going to get you the passionate sex life you want. And she can't claim she doesn't know what to do.

Some jobs and lifestyles aren't compatible with marriage. 

Now if she decides her part time night job is more important you may have to make some difficult decisions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Second time around, 

Thanks for your feedback. That's one thing I don't do well with. If she tells me it's just going to be about me I struggle. Most often I can just agree to go along, but that's not very emotionally satisfying. I want to give her an orgasm. And I can if she would just settle down, let go of her insecurities, let me do things to her without these limits. I could care less if she's fresh out of the shower. I will try to just go with it and keep in mind that a lot of women don't orgasm every time and that doesn't mean she didn't enjoy it or feel connected to me. 

Part of it feels like she isn't willing to go to the same lengths as me to please. I have no taboos. She is very closed off. She doesn't reciprocate oral, which is livable. But She doesn't have that same enthusiasm as me. The other poster said that is expecting too much, and I'm sure it probably is. Still, it bothers me. 

I would be fine with less frequent sex if it was passionate and we were growing sexually rather than regressing to places that weren't limited in the past. And I am not wanting long sessions necessarily. Nice once and a while but definitely not expected or our norm. 

I guess my thing is I'm hung up on gourmet. You need to have some gourmet in order for fast food to be ok. If all you're getting is fast food then your emotional-sexual health is probably suffering the same fate as all those who ingest a diet consisting solely of mcrib sandwiches. I get what you're saying though. That's a practical approach to compromising that I've stifled somewhat by not accepting her offers to focus on me. I should be more accepting of that for sure and satisfied that she is willing to do that for me without resentment. Thank you.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> P.S. And what I wish I'd realized when I was her age with a sexually needy husband is how much sex actually is important for the man to feel connected and not just get off. It takes the man making sure the woman is loved for reasons other than her body, though, of course. Back then, I think I did look down on him for have such basic/primal needs and making me feel like just another hole. But I take some responsibility for that in not seeing how much it did make him feel connected to me.



For me, when we have sex it's mostly about being connected to her. I can masturbate if I'm just horny my drive is crazy to release steam. That is not what I want from my wife necessarily, but a byproduct of our love making. Do I want to have an orgasm? You betcha. But it's secondary to our connection. I think she sees my drive a lot like you did. But she's more and more understanding as we keep talking.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

happy as a clam said:


> You've already done what many couples have been unable to do... you "turned the corner" on a very bad dynamic and have reconnected in a positive way.
> 
> Stop fearing that it will all go backwards. Fear translates to insecurity and weakness. If she perceives you as weak and insecure, it WILL go backwards.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this advice, very thoughtful. You're right I need to man up and not be beta about it. I'm up for quickies, but I put too much pressure on her to make it earth-shattering I think. The journal idea is good and I enjoy doing all those things to make her feel connected. Thanks!


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Why don't you try scheduling sex for once or twice a week? Then the pressure is off the rest of the week, you'll know when to expect it, and you can try for quality over quantity. 

Having an orgasm takes a fair amount of every and she may not always have it, and feeling pressure to have one doesn't help. Just ask her if she thinks she can have one and accept her answer. I get one over 90 percent of the time with hb, but that's because we have sex a couple of times a week. If he wanted more there's no way I could get off every time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> Nothing wrong with you wanting sex, that's normal and good for a marriage. I just think approaching it from that perspective isn't going to get you what you want because she doesn't have it to give. That's why she gets so frustrated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe we should revisit it. She got burnt on the last go-around so she's gun shy about it now to the point of being paralyzed. I've just dropped it after we discussed it to death and tried to make the best of it.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

rich84 said:


> Thanks for this advice, very thoughtful. You're right I need to man up and not be beta about it. I'm up for quickies, but I put too much pressure on her to make it earth-shattering I think. *The journal idea is good and I enjoy doing all those things to make her feel connected.* Thanks!


Yeah, you're light years ahead of my STBX lol! She's a lucky girl. 

Also wanted to mention....I don't know how much she's been "on and off" ADs, but I know I remember reading/hearing somewhere that going on and off them like that can eventually lead to that becoming a permanent problem (difficulty climaxing), even when off them. I worry about that myself since I've been an on/off partaker for several years. 

Food for thought....I have no link to scientifically back that up!


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

rich84 said:


> Maybe we should revisit it. She got burnt on the last go-around so she's gun shy about it now to the point of being paralyzed. I've just dropped it after we discussed it to death and tried to make the best of it.



I guess it stood out to me because I remember how it affected my dad. Not his sex life of course but I know that in general he was always sleep deprived and didn't feel well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> Why don't you try scheduling sex for once or twice a week? Then the pressure is off the rest of the week, you'll know when to expect it, and you can try for quality over quantity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's helpful. I'll just accept from now on if it doesn't happen. It took it way to hard. I am putting too much pressure on it.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Yeah, you're light years ahead of my STBX lol! She's a lucky girl.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She's been on them for a few years off and on. Never really liked the way they made her feel. She's been off for several months now and hasn't had any sexual dysfunction issues until recently. And what I'm calling dysfunction really is probably completely normal. She's actually been doing very well off of them. Fingers crossed she stays that way.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> I guess it stood out to me because I remember how it affected my dad. Not his sex life of course but I know that in general he was always sleep deprived and didn't feel well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



It's no good, there's no doubt about it. It would be even worse if she wasn't part time.


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## dtc37 (Nov 18, 2014)

Is she on AD still?? .. If so you're in a world of sexual stress my friend. Antidepressants aren't called the divorce drug for nothing. My ex's sexdrive was completely wiped out. With an addition of me being super needy drove her away. Also I will be the first to say to check phone records and look for signs of cheating. But besides that it sounds like you still have a lot of work to do on yourself to get out of codependency and look to your self for good emotions don't rely on her for your mood.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

dtc37 said:


> Is she on AD still?? .. If so you're in a world of sexual stress my friend. Antidepressants aren't called the divorce drug for nothing. My ex's sexdrive was completely wiped out. With an addition of me being super needy drove her away. Also I will be the first to say to check phone records and look for signs of cheating. But besides that it sounds like you still have a lot of work to do on yourself to get out of codependency and look to your self for good emotions don't rely on her for your mood.



She's been off them for several months. Hers was/is too. I feel good about her fidelity. She's not the type and we are pretty open about everything. I see her FB messaging and all that. She sees my email and texts, etc. 

Tell me more about what you mean with being codependent. I'm generally in a great mood. Although I am rather affected if she is not. How do you love your spouse and be indifferent to their struggles? However if she is depressed I don't let it drag me down the same way I used to.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

The problem with putting too much pressure and emphasis on giving her orgasms is that it is often counterproductive. Maybe de-emphasizing orgasms could improve the situation.


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## dtc37 (Nov 18, 2014)

Love is completely different than codependency. IMO A lot of women say and truly believe they want a relationship with someone that is sympathetic and sweet and nice don't get me wrong those aren't bad qualities and are super important but if all you are doing is courting her and make everything about her.. Then by default her DNA actually puts you in the Friend zone and the attraction fades. Her brain does this unconsciously. become the man YOU want to be. She will notice and will become attracted .. By being concerned more about her feelings and thoughts than your own and letting her control your emotions by you not getting laid is being codependent You said you are in a good mood but how about if she says no to sex?? What about if she says yes to sex?? What is you're reaction?? You also say you're confident that she isn't cheating that "she's not the type". Just do yourself the favor and be 100% positive or your energy put in will be wasted.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You did well. You said the right things and it eventually got her to change. There will be steps forward and steps back. Keep doing what works and stop doing what doesn't work. The same tactic that you got her to be more sexual for two weeks will also work on the night shift decision.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

dtc37 said:


> Love is completely different than codependency. IMO A lot of women say and truly believe they want a relationship with someone that is sympathetic and sweet and nice don't get me wrong those aren't bad qualities and are super important but if all you are doing is courting her and make everything about her.. Then by default her DNA actually puts you in the Friend zone and the attraction fades. Her brain does this unconsciously. become the man YOU want to be. She will notice and will become attracted .. By being concerned more about her feelings and thoughts than your own and letting her control your emotions by you not getting laid is being codependent You said you are in a good mood but how about if she says no to sex?? What about if she says yes to sex?? What is you're reaction?? You also say you're confident that she isn't cheating that "she's not the type". Just do yourself the favor and be 100% positive or your energy put in will be wasted.



I have become more of the man I want to be in the last year. I've become fit and way more confident. I stand up to her when I am passionate about something. I gave her an ultimatum about our relationship rather than feeding into the cycle. 

If she says no to sex I try not to feel rejected. I do what I want basically and refocus my energy. If she says yes? I'm glad of course. What does that say about me that you're trying to point out? I have no reason to suspect her, and I have no qualms about her in that respect. Maybe you were burned?


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Hicks said:


> You did well. You said the right things and it eventually got her to change. There will be steps forward and steps back. Keep doing what works and stop doing what doesn't work. The same tactic that you got her to be more sexual for two weeks will also work on the night shift decision.



Thanks. True. I will bring that back up and see about helping her find an alternative.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Dogbert said:


> The problem with putting too much pressure and emphasis on giving her orgasms is that it is often counterproductive. Maybe de-emphasizing orgasms could improve the situation.



Yep, I'm seeing the benefit of that. Thanks for this suggestion. Too much pressure on it.


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## dtc37 (Nov 18, 2014)

rich84 said:


> I have become more of the man I want to be in the last year. I've become fit and way more confident. I stand up to her when I am passionate about something. I gave her an ultimatum about our relationship rather than feeding into the cycle.
> 
> If she says no to sex I try not to feel rejected. I do what I want basically and refocus my energy. If she says yes? I'm glad of course. What does that say about me that you're trying to point out? I have no reason to suspect her, and I have no qualms about her in that respect. Maybe you were burned?


 
You're saying you became more of the man you want to be this past year. Which is awesome. But are you killing it in life ?? Are you doing the best you can to be the happiest and best person you can be?? I was just wondering what your reaction was to sex either way because a lot of men become whiny and actually ASK for sex which is pathetic trust me I've been there. Also men become overly excited and turn a women off which is also pathetic. But i noticed when I act like its no big deal It usually ends up in my favor. Yes you are right I have been burned and that's why I say to you be 100%. Just speaking from experience that's all.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

dtc37 said:


> You're saying you became more of the man you want to be this past year. Which is awesome. But are you killing it in life ?? Are you doing the best you can to be the happiest and best person you can be?? I was just wondering what your reaction was to sex either way because a lot of men become whiny and actually ASK for sex which is pathetic trust me I've been there. Also men become overly excited and turn a women off which is also pathetic. But i noticed when I act like its no big deal It usually ends up in my favor. Yes you are right I have been burned and that's why I say to you be 100%. Just speaking from experience that's all.



Killing it? Maybe if I was more narcissistic I could say that. But I'm feeling good about myself and my abilities at work and home. Of course I could do better and I will keep trying. Trying to work on my marriage which is why I'm here. 

No I don't beg or even ask for sex. I initiate, pretty much always but not always. I can read her and know if it's going to happen or not. If not then I don't ever just ask. Who would get turned on at that? If you have to flat out ask for sex then it takes away from any seduction. Gee willikers honey! How 'bout we head to the bedroom and and engage in sexual intercourse? Does that strike your fancy? Lol.


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## dtc37 (Nov 18, 2014)

rich84 said:


> Killing it? Maybe if I was more narcissistic I could say that. But I'm feeling good about myself and my abilities at work and home. Of course I could do better and I will keep trying. Trying to work on my marriage which is why I'm here.
> 
> No I don't beg or even ask for sex. I initiate, pretty much always but not always. I can read her and know if it's going to happen or not. If not then I don't ever just ask. Who would get turned on at that? If you have to flat out ask for sex then it takes away from any seduction. Gee willikers honey! How 'bout we head to the bedroom and and engage in sexual intercourse? Does that strike your fancy? Lol.



Haha lol don't poke fun there are a lot of men that do that!!! Maybe you should act a little more narcissistic for a while. I know all relationships are different but try working on personal goals and give the marriage a break for a while. I found in my experience working on a relationship completely drained me out and made it worse


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

You say you want the connection, but you are far too hung up on her orgasms. Her orgasm seems to be what you want not the connection, just based on what you're writing.

I'm HD, so is my hubby, we always have connection and passion yet we don't always both O. That's how it looks when you are not O focused.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> You say you want the connection, but you are far too hung up on her orgasms. Her orgasm seems to be what you want not the connection, just based on what you're writing.
> 
> I'm HD, so is my hubby, we always have connection and passion yet we don't always both O. That's how it looks when you are not O focused.



Well I think the conversation got off a little onto that. I agree that I'm too hung up on it but she does get really frustrated when she can't. So I'm probably too focused on it as far as love making goes. I'm more after the connection and passion between us that carries over into our relationship. I think the main issue has been her LD and lack of passion. We made some great strides here recently so I'm mainly concerned with keeping this forward momentum. I'm optimistic for sure.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

dtc37 said:


> Haha lol don't poke fun there are a lot of men that do that!!! Maybe you should act a little more narcissistic for a while. I know all relationships are different but try working on personal goals and give the marriage a break for a while. I found in my experience working on a relationship completely drained me out and made it worse



Yeah I get that I have to be my own interesting person to be attractive. And you're right about putting too much emphasis on things can be a stumbling block and hinderance instead of actually improving things. This feedback is helping out things into focus. Thanks to all of you.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

rich84 said:


> Well I think the conversation got off a little onto that. I agree that I'm too hung up on it but she does get really frustrated when she can't. So I'm probably too focused on it as far as love making goes. I'm more after the connection and passion between us that carries over into our relationship. I think the main issue has been her LD and lack of passion. We made some great strides here recently so I'm mainly concerned with keeping this forward momentum. I'm optimistic for sure.


She may get frustrated, but I bet she wouldn't worry about it as much if you didn't.

Most of the advice you'll find about bringing back the passion says NOT to focus on PIV sex or orgasm at all and instead to focus on each other, on kissing and petting, on things most people call foreplay, and on things you individually each find enjoyable and passionate. 

I'll tell you straight up it is not enjoyable or passionate to be trying to reach orgasm just because you know your partner will be hurt if you don't.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...307/ten-ways-put-magic-back-your-relationship


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...307/ten-ways-put-magic-back-your-relationship



Good advice and link, thanks!


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## maritalloneliness (Mar 18, 2015)

rich84 said:


> Maybe we should revisit it. She got burnt on the last go-around so she's gun shy about it now to the point of being paralyzed. I've just dropped it after we discussed it to death and tried to make the best of it.


I don't know if this will help but have her talk to her doctor about her depression medication. I had postpartum depression and was prescribed Lexapro which took away my libido. Most antidepressants have that as a side effect. Zoltan also causes this and also an inability to orgasm. I hope it helps


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

She really needs to be getting some exercise. It's well known to help with depression and energy levels.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

maritalloneliness said:


> I don't know if this will help but have her talk to her doctor about her depression medication. I had postpartum depression and was prescribed Lexapro which took away my libido. Most antidepressants have that as a side effect. Zoltan also causes this and also an inability to orgasm. I hope it helps



She's off of it now thankfully.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> She really needs to be getting some exercise. It's well known to help with depression and energy levels.



Yes, it makes everything better. She's asking for an elliptical, so we will have to look into a decent one.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Yesterday evening and today have been absolutely awesome. We've connected really well and our communication has been very good. Lots of touching and intimacy between us. I'm sharing things I used to hold back because I thought she could care less (not true) and she's opening up and talking more as a result. My resentment has vanished and we had a discussion about sex yesterday - taking the pressure off, just having fun with it, and really just focusing on connecting versus high intensity. I'm excited to see how deep our relationship can go if we keep on this path. It makes me wonder why I felt like we were slipping in the progress we made over the last couple weeks. However, her attitude is way more positive and I feel she is genuine in wanting to make things as good as we can. Talking with you all on here put things into perspective for me and helped me cope with my insecurities about our progress. After so long with intimacy being an issue it just seemed unlikely that this change could be sustained. However, I feel like she's on the same page with me and I have a better image of what I need to do to keep up my end of the bargain to make her want me that way. This is probably he most satisfying feeling because I love this woman so much.


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

rich84 said:


> Second time around,
> 
> Thanks for your feedback. That's one thing I don't do well with. If she tells me it's just going to be about me I struggle.


This is an important item.

I had to learn this as well.

You need to relearn the fact that it's okay if it is about you. 

My SO has these issues ever now and again. She simply will not have an O that session no matter what I do. Once she says it's about me, it helps her confidence to rock me out.

I suspect that it is the same for your wife.

So when she tells you it's about you, *TRUST* her, she now wants it to be about you. Take advantage of the situation because that's what she wants. She needs you to get enough pleasure so as to make up for her inability to O.

Get into that position you like best and hammer down.

Make her get on top and tell her to ride you hard and put you away wet.

Tell her you want her to make you beg to finish.

Make sure she understands it's okay


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

snerg said:


> This is an important item.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, that sounds hot. I'm going to take this advice to heart. I guess I just didn't want to make it seem like I was using her, but now I get that I was just adding to the frustration for us both and that it could have been positive. I rejected her gift so to speak.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Ok so I guess I want to update. It's been a mixed bag this week. I've been putting in a lot of effort. I read his needs her needs, which made a ton of sense. I asked her to read it also and she basically said not right now, she is too busy. She's studying for a professional exam and she also cited keeping up with housework. Mind you I have been doing more of that than any man I know. We talked every day since my last post on the first. We connected emotionally. We fought not at all. Lots of good deposits in the love bank. 

We had sex last Tuesday. She had worked all weekend and so Monday she's understandable exhausted. Wednesday no but we cuddled and read together and it was nice. Thursday she worked again. That night I sent her a heartfelt text, and it also included some erotic undertones. Mistake! And by undertones I mean blatant expressions of sexual desire. Basically how much I wanted her, and how much I wanted to please her. Blah blah. What I wanted was just a response like she feels that too. Maybe that it excited her even? Not that she needed to express herself in the same way. What she replied was something to the effect of my text was too much. She loves me and wants sex with me but my text made her uncomfortable. She grew up in a sheltered household where love wasn't expressed much and she doesn't know how to communicate like that. Of course I triggered and had a desire to pull away. It felt like rejection and I'm so sick of rejection. She tells me in the morning it's all ok, don't get hung up on it. Baby steps. 

So she gets minimal sleep Friday. I mean 4-5 hours. We have no babysitter this day so she has to wait until preschool starts at noon to get to bed. My MIL picks up our daughter from school and we end up having a date night. Very nice evening out and she's not tired actually feels good. I tuck her in and it's lights out bc I know she has to be tired. 

Then I made another mistake. I ask her if she minds if I go workout in the morning. Which means she would need to get up with our daughter. She says sure no problem. I get up early but take my time and also get a haircut which took forever. I check in with her and see how things are going and she is cold. I finally get home around noon and try to give her a kiss. She won't look at me. She's staring at her phone on he couch. She's obviously pissed off that I took the morning rather than let her sleep in. Silent treatment which is a huge sore spot for me. She got 10 hours of sleep but not nearly enough apparently due to the deficit from the day before. 

Now we were supposed to do things yesterday bc it was nice out. We planned to wash cars, do yard work, etc. it's all off bc I made a mistake and didn't let her sleep until one in the afternoon. So she lays on the couch from 8am until 3:30pm. All day. I take our daughter to the park, give her a bath, etc. she finally gets up and now I'm pissed. 

Don't tell me something is fine and then treat me ****ty for doing what we agreed. I would have just stayed home if I would have known it would ruin the day. We had a discussion (and this is an improvement) and I explained that if she asked me for something I would give it to her freely. And if I can't give it to her freely without being resentful I would tell her as such and not bait and trap. She agreed that that was better. I again approached the subject of her working nights. I said its poisoning our relationship and the money isn't worth it. I asked her to get a dayshift job (she could have one in a month if she desired) or put in her two week notice. She refused both. She's set on staying put in her comfort zone. I told her she's incompatible with nights because she requires more sleep than average. I reminded that she woke up the other day and called her mother in a delirious state talking out of her head. 

No wonder we don't have sex. So today she will sleep 14-16 hours to get caught up. The way she treated me yesterday made me trigger hard. The way she made me feel irrelevant and unwanted. The way she moped around on he couch for the entire day. The way she gave me the complete cold shoulder and was completely without kindness. She says she just didn't feel well and felt like laying around. But there was an element of bitterness and indifference that made me feel like we were back into that old cycle again. I told her that she could have said that she felt bad and asked for my support and I would have been there for her. But it wasn't like that. She was mad I left and she had to get up and I had to pay for that with coldness and her entitled lounging. 

Meanwhile I'm sexually frustrated and it builds by the day. I can't masturbate now bc I have some mental block. It's like my body is screaming that I need sex but my mind won't work to keep me aroused. And she forbids any type of stimulation (ie porn), so when I try to create a mental stimulus all I get in my head are thoughts of frustration about our sex life. It's like I have this aching pit of a feeling in my groin that cannot be relieved. This is a first for me that I can't even let off steam on my own. Which really heightens the situation with my wife which is exactly the opposite of what that situation needs. 

I keep thinking about divorce when I know thats not what I want. She thinks I'm being dramatic and overly reactive to situations. I probably am but I'm at a constantly high level of frustration and so every little thing makes me crazy. And she had a callousness to her yesterday that took me right back to those feelings of resentment and detachment. This is how she regarded me for years and I'm done with it. Today I don't even want to have sex with her. Meanwhile she says she doesn't want to go back to the way we were and that I need to stop throwing up roadblocks in moving forward. She admitted that it was her fault that we had such a ****ty day. 

So maybe I should have been more considerate by staying home yesterday morning. Maybe I should not expect such progress in her sexuality and comfort with expression. Maybe I should stop going back to those feelings whenever something triggers in me that makes me feel rejected. 

All I know is that what I want and what we have are pretty far apart. And I am now unwilling to settle for being frustrated and disappointed. And despite all this turmoil it's still progress bc we are talking and both on the same page that it's change or divorce.


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

Rich - any updates?


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

Sorry man you are screwed. Sounds like my wife. She might change for a day or a week or two but give it awhile and she'll go right back to being selfish. If you stick around prepare to be constantly disappointed in the lack of effort you get.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Update. We have had a few ups and downs but I think we both feel that real progress has been made. We are averaging 2-4 times per week for sex and it has been passionate and satisfying. She initiates more than half the time. Her boundaries have loosened up considerably and she's much more comfortable with new things. Vibrators, doggy, oral, etc. She gave me oral a few times and let's me go down on her without getting uptight. She loves that now. 

I stepped up my game with nonsexual affection and conversation. I did my share of housework and stopped flipping out if things weren't done my way. I started ironing my shirts since she hates that. I am much more communicative all around. More texting, flirting, affirmation, compliments, etc. I PUT AWAY my phone and iPad of an evening and focus on her. I watch shows with her that aren't my favorite (really just enjoy spending time with her).

I dropped the resentment. I cut her some slack. I backed her up with parenting. Started instituting a bedtime so we would have adult time. 

So things have been so better that it's hard to believe. If it starts to slide on either end we call it out. Communication has been up 1000%. I found out through my ultimatum or confrontation that she wanted our relationship to last and would do what it takes to improve things. He hardest part was dropping the resentment and not viewing every setback as a failure. I had to view the progress longitudinally to see what amazing strides were taking place. 

We're still working on it, but things are looking so much better.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

jd08 said:


> Sorry man you are screwed. Sounds like my wife. She might change for a day or a week or two but give it awhile and she'll go right back to being selfish. If you stick around prepare to be constantly disappointed in the lack of effort you get.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Maybe, maybe not. I'm becoming a lot less reactive to her and not getting aggravated when things don't go my way. I think pouting and being resentful was a huge turnoff for her. Even when she "slacks off" we are still having 500% more sex. So I have to put that into context. Part of my issue when we were starting to turn things around is I actually wanted more sex than I needed. Overfill my cup so to speak. Now I'm relaxing because I am not left wondering when it will happen again.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Wow I am reading my above comments and I must have been really positive that day. 

We had a few good weeks where things were net positive sexually. 2-3 times per week. We seem to have an argument every week as well. Like another thread on here, I lose my sense of connection with my wife after several days without sex. I wish it wasn't so but I find it hard to give her the level of affection she needs when we don't connect sexually. Regardless, she says I'm meeting her needs. However, she now recognizes that I'm withdrawing after 4-5 days with no sex. 

Last weekend I was struggling. She went to an event with me and another dinner with my family on seperate days without fixing herself up at all. No makeup. Hair frizzed out and in a knot. Company tshirt a size too big. I was not thrilled and I asked her to change for the event as it was at a church. I left well enough alone for my family but I still wasn't thrilled. We had a minor exchange over me being insensitive about her appearance and pushing her to fix up and take some pride in herself. I apparently responded too positively to movie scene we watched together, and it made her feel inadequate. I tried to reassure her that I think she's gorgeous, but it was terrible timing on my part given the recent friction. 

We ended up having sex on Sunday. It was Father's Day and she was great towards me. Monday she worked. Last night I'm reeling from some emotional bomb my mother dropped on me. My wife was a great comfort, but I just needed to feel close to my wife. She shot me down, and could not bring herself to be there for me sexually. I mean I get that sometimes are just not good times, but cmon. If I saw her struggling the way that I was struggling I would have moved mountains to fix it for her. I get so resentful that she cannot find it in herself to show me love sexually when I really need it. If it was any other time I would have dropped it, but it wasn't like that. She said we just had sex on Sunday. It was the only time that week. I kept cool and did not get worked up. But I was very frustrated. 

Now today I'm feeling hopeless, resentful etc. she called me and said that she knew last night would be an issue. That I'm being negative. We had the same sex argument again. She asked me to move out for a while, that I am sucking her dry and that she can't keep doing this. I told her absolutely not, I'm not leaving my house. So she said she is leaving then. I presume she is taking my daughter with her, which won't fly for me. 

I feel pretty hopeless. I feel I am the cause of this because I cannot just calm down and let it be. I'm literally climbing the walls with sexual frustration, and she sees it as my problem at this point. She's met me as far as she's willing to go and now she's just tired of dealing with it. 

I love her and my family. I want to be with her, but being with her leaves me so unfulfilled. I'm constantly upset or depressed, which is totally off for me. Help!!!


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## EVG39 (Jun 4, 2015)

rich84 said:


> Wow I am reading my above comments and I must have been really positive that day.
> 
> We had a few good weeks where things were net positive sexually. 2-3 times per week. We seem to have an argument every week as well. Like another thread on here, I lose my sense of connection with my wife after several days without sex. I wish it wasn't so but I find it hard to give her the level of affection she needs when we don't connect sexually. Regardless, she says I'm meeting her needs. However, she now recognizes that I'm withdrawing after 4-5 days with no sex.
> 
> ...


Okay, you need to step back for a moment and listen to yourself. Read what I have bolded here. Let those words sink in for a minute.
Do see how you are communicating your need for sex with her is being perceived by her as needy, clingy and sorry to say weak? These are major, major turnoffs for most women. What you are exhibiting and saying front and center is that if you cant have sex you are going to go crazy. Your lack of self control is scary to her. Almost as scary to her is that she holds all the power in the relationship when you are like this. Her yes or no is ruling your life. She doesn't want that. She wants you to have your own darn power to make yourself happy. She will find that far more attractive than any physical attribute.What you need to demonstrate when you are being turned down frankly is outcome independence. If she says yes great, is she says no, no biggie. Her loss. Believe it in your mind and demonstrate that to her. Don't be pissy or over the top. Go do something else out of her presence. When you approach her as a strong confident man in control of himself she will most likely be far more receptive to your overtures than she is now.Yours is by no stretch of the imagination a sexless marriage. Act like it is an abundant universe. Until you believe in your mind that it is.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

EVG39 said:


> Okay, you need to step back for a moment and listen to yourself. Read what I have bolded here. Let those words sink in for a minute.
> 
> Do see how you are communicating your need for sex with her is being perceived by her as needy, clingy and sorry to say weak? These are major, major turnoffs for most women. What you are exhibiting and saying front and center is that if you cant have sex you are going to go crazy. Your lack of self control is scary to her. Almost as scary to her is that she holds all the power in the relationship when you are like this. Her yes or no is ruling your life. She doesn't want that. She wants you to have your own darn power to make yourself happy. She will find that far more attractive than any physical attribute.What you need to demonstrate when you are being turned down frankly is outcome independence. If she says yes great, is she says no, no biggie. Her loss. Believe it in your mind and demonstrate that to her. Don't be pissy or over the top. Go do something else out of her presence. When you approach her as a strong confident man in control of himself she will most likely be far more receptive to your overtures than she is now.Yours is by no stretch of the imagination a sexless marriage. Act like it is an abundant universe. Until you believe in your mind that it is.



Yes, I fully realize that what I am doing now is not helping. It's damaging, in fact. I really did take a step back. And I usually am not pressuring her to have sex in the moment. I don't even get pissy until things build. But then after a while I do get resentful. To be totally honest, I have tried this approach. I do try to find my own happiness. My independent drive to succeed is something that she's really attracted to. But it does not translate to more sex. She says she is very attracted to me physically and I have no reason to question it. She was even more attracted to who I was before I started being angry and resentful. But her body is telling her that sex once a week or every two weeks is plenty (no matter how good it is). Being a "strong" man, one that acts indifferent to sex, will not suddenly make her want me more. Her libido is flat most of the time. It is ruling my life now. I tried to suppress it for so long to keep the peace, but it seems like that is no longer an option. Now, if I take back my power, separate myself from this clingy neediness, and do my own thing, do you know what she says? You're acting distant, cold, and different. I don't feel close to you so I don't feel connected or want to be intimate. So she needs me to be Mr. Affectionate for sex to be on the table. And even then it's at best 1-2 times per week. And I need sex at minimum 2-3 times per week to feel affectionate at that max level without eventually becoming resentful. Her affection needs are as strong as my sexual needs. 

Is it wrong to want to have a good sexual relationship? I'm not talking about just getting off. I'm talking about something we do together to enjoy each other and connect. To explore each other bring each other pleasure. I'm talking in German when I say this to her. She says I just want to get my jollies. There is that baseline need, but there is a deeper emotional connection through sex that I am lacking. I guess this is rare or not as common as I think. My imagination is good but I can not fathom how our relationship is an abundant universe. It got better since I have her an ultimatum, but now I've pushed it as far as it can go and I just can't be satisfied with it unfortunately. I really want to be. 

Thank you for responding. Keep challenging me. The out of control comment and power concept are dead on. I am out of control. I'm not centered and rational. I'm dramatic. I'm a perfectionist and I focus on the one thing that is wrong and not all the positives.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

rich84 said:


> there is a deeper emotional connection through sex that I am lacking.


How would your wife complete this same exact sentence? i.e., "There is a deeper emotional connection through _______ that I am lacking."

I've been married to YOU before so I totally get where your wife is coming from. I think she probably feels like you value her body and lady parts (even though you criticize the way she looks) WAY more than you value her brain and her heart, and that is such a huge turn off for some women. There is nothing WRONG with her libido, also. It's different than yours, and there's nothing wrong with yours either. You two are just different. Sounds like you are constantly making her feel bad for not wanting it enough. She wants what she wants and you want what you want. Gotta come to a compromise, and it might start with figuring out what emotional need of hers you are not meeting. I'd start with checking your behavior toward her after 4-5 days without sex. Are you pouting and belittling her in subtle ways? I'd guess yes.

Your sex life could be a LOT worse.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Bugged said:


> I'm going to be frank so if I say something that might offend you I apologize in advance.
> You made your bed.
> You pushed your wife out of her comfort zone, threatening to leave her.
> The sex she offered was _duty sex_ for you..wou wanted to spice things up with things like oral which she was not comfortable with, vibrators (what's with this fixation everyone seems to have with vibrators, I hate them), doggy(how romantic)...she probably thinks no matter what she does is never going to be enough.
> ...



Nope doesn't offend me at all. You are absolutely right on all accounts. Except she really does like oral sex (just prefers to be shower fresh) and now she's asking for the vibrator (which I care less about). It's just on her terms as far as frequency and timing. I can't initiate it. If I do, she turns me down. If play it cool and give her plenty of nonsexual affection, she will come to me... Once a week. 

I would like to explore some "raunchy" sex, but her confidence isn't there. She made some serious progress over the last couple months, but I can't depend on it to be consistent. If it wasn't so all over the place I think I could relax about it. It may be 3 days in a row (high times) or it may be a week and a half (ugh). 

I really don't think I'm sugar coating it. I want both. I want connectedness through sex. I also want to explore sexually. Also, I wouldn't call oral (and only giving, hardly ever receiving) raunchy. I call that foreplay. And doggy is just another position and not my favorite or go to or anything like that. However I do think she is resentful that she thinks her efforts are never enough. You are definitely right there. Not good.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> How would your wife complete this same exact sentence? i.e., "There is a deeper emotional connection through _______ that I am lacking."
> 
> I've been married to YOU before so I totally get where your wife is coming from. I think she probably feels like you value her body and lady parts (even though you criticize the way she looks) WAY more than you value her brain and her heart, and that is such a huge turn off for some women. There is nothing WRONG with her libido, also. It's different than yours, and there's nothing wrong with yours either. You two are just different. Sounds like you are constantly making her feel bad for not wanting it enough. She wants what she wants and you want what you want. Gotta come to a compromise, and it might start with figuring out what emotional need of hers you are not meeting. I'd start with checking your behavior toward her after 4-5 days without sex. Are you pouting and belittling her in subtle ways? I'd guess yes.
> 
> Your sex life could be a LOT worse.



Yeah you're right. I am making her feel bad about not wanting to have sex. I'm making her feel inadequate. I generally build her esteem up, but her lack of self-respect turned me off this last weekend and I did a poor job of hiding the fact that I wish she held herself in high enough esteem to dress and fix up to the generally public standard. Most men want their women to make some effort to look put together. Not all the time but at least on occasions like we had last weekend. 

I agree my behavior after 4-5 days needs work. I get cold and distant and she doesn't like it. It perpetuates this cycle. I have, however, not done that and it does make her a very happy gal. I've asked her what her needs are and met them. f I meet all her needs and act thrilled about her not meeting mine, then she's just a happy little clam. But I'm not. And I'm faking it. And I can only do that for so long before I feel restless. It could be worse, yes, if I was willing to let it be. It was way worse (like once a month or less) until I said change is needed or I'm out. It could also be a lot better.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Rich84--You're doing well, but it's going to take time. You're on the right path by examining first what you are doing wrong. That's admirable, and absolutely the right thing to do.

However.

It also sounds like your wife may have some issues of her own beyond her libido that she needs to work on before you two are on stable footing. The fact that she yells at you to get out of the house over this says to me that she's not in a stable frame of mind about your relationship altogether. You need to get both of you into counseling, pronto.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

Bugged said:


> I'm going to be frank so if I say something that might offend you I apologize in advance.
> You made your bed.
> You pushed your wife out of her comfort zone, threatening to leave her.
> The sex she offered was _duty sex_ for you..wou wanted to spice things up with things like oral which she was not comfortable with, vibrators (what's with this fixation everyone seems to have with vibrators, I hate them), doggy(how romantic)...she probably thinks no matter what she does is never going to be enough.
> ...


I really don't think the things he has been asking for (oral, vibrator, doggy) would qualify as raunchy sex to most people. I hope you were trying to possibly portray his wife's view point so he could see it from a different perspective.


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## Mike6211 (Jan 18, 2013)

You work out a lot. If you lift weights, that elevates the testosterone.

Have a look into supplementing with creatine. It stops muscles fatiguing quite so quickly, so you can do more reps per set.

A common side effect is that it dampens the libido a bit. Maybe, taking everything into account, you might see that as a bonus?


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> Rich84--You're doing well, but it's going to take time. You're on the right path by examining first what you are doing wrong. That's admirable, and absolutely the right thing to do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We had a blow up about it tonight. She is tired of hearing about it and talking about it. She doesn't want to talk about her issues and she isn't willing to go to counseling. I tried to gently talk to her about her self-esteem, and the limits she puts on herself. She feels that I'm picking on her and will never be satisfied with her. She's currently not speaking to me at he moment. Right now she sees it all as my problem with how I am treating her, being dissatisfied with our sex life, the way she takes care of herself, etc. I'm the bad guy. I would rather focus on one thing at a time, but it all came up. She's basically at her breaking point, but we can't continue to sweep all this under the rug. It just resurfaces later. And lately often.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Bugged said:


> OT well, obviously everyone has their interpretation of 'raunchy'... personally I _hate _all those things..like vibrators..those plastic objects with ludicrous shapes AND terrible colors...that BUZZ..I don't know if it's because i have Asperger's but I cannot fathom that someone could be turned on with a plastic contraption that _buzzes_...It could drive me insane in 30 seconds..> end of OT
> 
> Obviously his wife is a little more old-fashioned than him when it comes to sex..apparently...



Yes, she was sheltered. I didn't have more partners really but I did have a lot more experience coming into things that was pretty much useless since it was all out of her comfort zone. After marriage that is.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Mike6211 said:


> You work out a lot. If you lift weights, that elevates the testosterone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, my workouts have gotten pretty hard and I can tell that my T is up because my sex drive is off the charts. I will look into that. It is basically my enemy at this point, although I do like my sexuality.


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## EVG39 (Jun 4, 2015)

rich84 said:


> Yes, I fully realize that what I am doing now is not helping. It's damaging, in fact. I really did take a step back. And I usually am not pressuring her to have sex in the moment. I don't even get pissy until things build. But then after a while I do get resentful. To be totally honest, I have tried this approach. I do try to find my own happiness. *My independent drive to succeed is something that she's really attracted to* This is what I am getting at in my earlier post. It might be unfair but you sound like she is the center of the universe and you are merely orbiting around her. This is very unattractive to women. She doesn't want to be the center of the universe, she wants to be part of your very interesting world. If your focus is so much on her how can she be interested in you at all. You're boring her.. But it does not translate to more sex. She says she is very attracted to me physically and I have no reason to question it. She was even more attracted to who I was before I started being angry and resentful. But her body is telling her that sex once a week or every two weeks is plenty (no matter how good it is). Being a "strong" man, one that acts indifferent to sex, will not suddenly make her want me more. *Her libido is flat most of the time. It is ruling my life now* Well there's more evidence of if for you. You said it explicitly right there. And if it is true, she hates it. She feels pedastilized and pressured. And she views you as weak for being ruled by something so relatively insignificant as her libido. And therefore very unattractive to her.. I tried to suppress it for so long to keep the peace, but it seems like that is no longer an option. *Now, if I take back my power, separate myself from this clingy neediness, and do my own thing, do you know what she says?* You need not to care what she says. You are only interested in changing her reaction to you. Stop listening so much and observe her behaviors. Because clearly what you are doing now is making both of you crazy. You are in this for the long haul. But I bet if you take her off the pedestal and stop pressuring her you are going to get a very different result. You're acting distant, cold, and different. I don't feel close to you so I don't feel connected or want to be intimate. So she needs me to be Mr. Affectionate for sex to be on the table. And even then it's at best 1-2 times per week. And I need sex at minimum 2-3 times per week to feel affectionate at that max level without eventually becoming resentful. Her affection needs are as strong as my sexual needs.
> 
> Is it wrong to want to have a good sexual relationship? I'm not talking about just getting off. I'm talking about something we do together to enjoy each other and connect. To explore each other bring each other pleasure. I'm talking in German when I say this to her. She says I just want to get my jollies. There is that baseline need, but there is a deeper emotional connection through sex that I am lacking. I guess this is rare or not as common as I think. My imagination is good but I can not fathom how our relationship is an abundant universe. It got better since I have her an ultimatum, but now I've pushed it as far as it can go and I just can't be satisfied with it unfortunately. I really want to be.
> 
> Thank you for responding. Keep challenging me. The out of control comment and power concept are dead on. I am out of control. I'm not centered and rational. I'm dramatic. I'm a perfectionist and I focus on the one thing that is wrong and not all the positives.


Thanks for receiving my advice in the spirit that it was intended. You received it better than friends I have known for twenty years. Most men have been where you are now, I am no exception. And it is a daily struggle not to fall back. It is also a struggle to understand because what "works" is counter intuitive and contrary to what you read and hear in the popular culture. But here is the money quote that always helps me. "What does a woman want? She wants a man that other men wish to be and other women want to F.....". Be that Man, he's right beneath your surface. Your task is to go bring him forth.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

EVG39 said:


> Thanks for receiving my advice in the spirit that it was intended. You received it better than friends I have known for twenty years. Most men have been where you are now, I am no exception. And it is a daily struggle not to fall back. It is also a struggle to understand because what "works" is counter intuitive and contrary to what you read and hear in the popular culture. But here is the money quote that always helps me. "What does a woman want? She wants a man that other men wish to be and other women want to F.....". Be that Man, he's right beneath your surface. Your task is to go bring him forth.



Thanks for that. I can do this. 

We actually had an intervention of sorts. We asked an older couple to come over and counsel us as we were spinning our wheels last night. They actually came over at 1am to help us out. I think we both felt if this carried on we would be in some death spiral. We ended up in a much better place. Here's some of what I realized:

1. I'm way too fixated on sex. Yes, it's important, but I can't let it consume my ever waking thoughts and cause me to lose sight of reality, our progress, and our family. I'm not entitled to have it exactly like I want it and leaving/cheating/etc. is not what I want either. There's some compromise for us. 

2. I have an addictive, intense, and obsessive personality. If I want something, I will go harder and stronger than the next person to obtain it. When I turned my eye on our relationship and lack of sex, I honed in with laser focus. First I stirred things up but then I drove it into the ground riding on a dead, over-beaten horse. Gotta work on this. 

3. My wife and I love each other very much, neither of us are quitters, and we're mostly getting in the way of our own happiness. Good times are ahead. 

4. I can let things like what she wears bother me. Or I can choose to let it not bother me. Even if not, I am still very much attracted to my wife. 

5. I can remove myself from her rectum (orbit, universe, whatever), do my own thing, and not allow myself to create distance and poison my thinking. 

6. Gotta let the past die.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

rich84 said:


> We actually had an intervention of sorts. We asked an older couple to come over and counsel us as we were spinning our wheels last night.


Sounds like the older couple may have convinced you that it's all your fault.

I disagree. Sure, there are things you could do better. But your needs matter too, not just hers.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Sounds like the older couple may have convinced you that it's all your fault.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. Sure, there are things you could do better. But your needs matter too, not just hers.



Not that it's all my fault but that I'm getting in the way of progress by sabotaging things every time I feel there is a minor setback. That I'm reacting to much, reading too much into things, letting my cloud of negativity drive me to be dissatisfied when things might actually be turning around. 

I was at the point that I was ready leave a few months ago. But since she invested in our marriage and is working on things with me I need to let go of those old feelings.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Rich, you mentioned that you had more experience. Please tell me you haven't told her about these experiences? One great way to turn a woman off is to let her know all about others before her and imply that she needs to live up to this.

Don't ask me how I know this. ....

FYI: I'd suspect the not getting fixed up to go out was deliberate and a blatant FU directed your way. Probably a result of her resentment at your fixation on sex. And as you know, even though you're genuinely sexually frustrated someone who pouts over it becomes even less attractive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Rich, you mentioned that you had more experience. *Please tell me you haven't told her about these experiences? One great way to turn a woman off is to let her know all about others before her and imply that she needs to live up to this.*


This is the best way to let the woman down and make her feel insecure. Totally agreed!


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> Rich, you mentioned that you had more experience. Please tell me you haven't told her about these experiences? One great way to turn a woman off is to let her know all about others before her and imply that she needs to live up to this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She knows that I'm more experienced. She asked me outright about number of partners, etc. earlier this year after our initial blowup. We had never discussed this in detail. She didn't get too curious, but she got the picture. I would never intentionally make her feel inadequate by saying that I've done this or that before or whether it was better. I've done nothing but talk up her abilities. Yes, I get the pouting thing is not attractive. I've got to feel more indifferent to rejection without harboring resentment or getting cold. 

I kind of doubt it was a deliberate FU. More along the lines of personal insecurity is my thinking. She has a lot of insecurities, and I can't seem to help her overcome them. But I guess you could be right. She's not a vindictive person, and that's a pretty self-depreciating way to "get at" me.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Sounds like the older couple may have convinced you that it's all your fault.
> 
> I disagree. Sure, there are things you could do better. But your needs matter too, not just hers.


what did the older couple comment about HER role in making things work better between you?


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

jorgegene said:


> what did the older couple comment about HER role in making things work better between you?



They were much harder on me. Partly because she seemed unable to take heavy criticism at the time. I think the mission that night was to simply get back to some feeling of hope instead of leaving it at a stalemate to fester. I took a lot of blame in order to get things back on track, and I don't disagree with that blame. But there wasn't much blame placed in her court. I had instigated this fight over couple of triggers for me (her not taking care of herself, no sex for days) and she felt defeated. I think they focused on me sabotaging things if there isn't the continued progress that I'm expecting. The cycle I'm creating isn't helping progress, it's more like hitting the reset button on intimacy by being negative. 

We did talk about the appearance thing. She said she thinks I just want her to look a certain way in order to put up a front to others. She threw up a comment I made at one point about her being a reflection of me (****ty I know). They tried to redirect her, talk about her own self-esteem, you do it to make yourself feel better, etc. 

The sex thing - the couple said a couple times per week is not some lofty goal. But otherwise it was about me not setting some high bar and getting down on the relationship if there are any bumps in the road. 

I dunno.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

rich84 said:


> They were much harder on me. Partly because she seemed unable to take heavy criticism at the time.


Right. So they validated her feelings that this is all YOUR fault and that she can just keep doing what she's been doing. There was no problem. 

Let us know how that works out.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Right. So they validated her feelings that this is all YOUR fault and that she can just keep doing what she's been doing. There was no problem.
> 
> Let us know how that works out.



Ugh. Yeah, pretty much. Probably why I feel so crappy today. I mean I agree that a lot of this is my fault because we have made big improvements and I should be happy with that. But on the other hand there's still a lot left that upsets me and makes me feel like I'm settling for mediocracy. I think a lot of it is how I choose to view the situation and to what level am I going to allow myself to be dissatisfied. I honestly can't see a realistic scenario that appeals to me right now. Staying, leaving, whatever. It all looks crappy right now. I have no cards to play, no end game to shoot for. I feel trapped and depressed.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

rich84 said:


> Ugh. Yeah, pretty much. Probably why I feel so crappy today. I mean I agree that a lot of this is my fault because we have made big improvements and I should be happy with that. But on the other hand there's still a lot left that upsets me and makes me feel like I'm settling for mediocracy. I think a lot of it is how I choose to view the situation and to what level am I going to allow myself to be dissatisfied. I honestly can't see a realistic scenario that appeals to me right now. Staying, leaving, whatever. It all looks crappy right now. I have no cards to play, no end game to shoot for. I feel trapped and depressed.


That's the problem with asking for an outside opinion. It might be the wrong opinion.

You were whining too much. Too many words, not enough action.

Let her know that, despite what the "older couple" might have said, you still aren't happy. You still have a problem. You have no intention of living this way forever. You are not willing to have another child given your while you are uncertain of the marriage. Inform her that this is the last time you are going to broach the topic, but that she is welcome to talk to you any time she'd like.

Deprioritize her needs. Start the 180.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> That's the problem with asking for an outside opinion. It might be the wrong opinion.
> 
> You were whining too much. Too many words, not enough action.
> 
> ...



Oh she's on notice. And we have talked about holding off on any more kids. She even talked about going on birth control again, but I think that it might have negatively affected her libido. It's a no win there. She says if I am totally against more kids that it's a deal breaker for her. She will resent that like I would resent more kids coming between our intimacy as a couple. 

Going to cut out the whininess and not lose my cool anymore. I want to let this play out a bit - me not being so needy - and see where things go. She knows after all our arguments that I'm not living in a passionless marriage. We either continue to develop it or I'm out. But I don't think it's doing any good to throw my hands up and get pissy after every gap of 4-5 days without sex. Like others have said, there's nothing attractive about that.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

rich84 said:


> We either continue to develop it or I'm out. But I don't think it's doing any good to throw my hands up and get pissy after every gap of 4-5 days without sex. Like others have said, there's nothing attractive about that.


So at what interval are you going to review the crappy status of your intimate relationship? 3 months, 6 moths? Make a plan.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

anonmd said:


> So at what interval are you going to review the crappy status of your intimate relationship? 3 months, 6 moths? Make a plan.



I see my original post was at the end of March. 3 months sounds reasonable to stay in it with both feet. If by then this is still going on I will really have to re-evaluate things.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Rich: Excellent idea. Keep being the best man, husband and father you can be. When you can't continue being the best husband because you are too frustrated, explain to your wife that if you stay with her you can't be the husband you want to be. Then leave.

Frankly, if she says "more kids is a dealbreaker" then you may not have much chance of success. Because we both know that she is not going to be willing to meet your need for sex if you bring another child into the family.

But it is a big decision and only you know when you have reached the end of your rope.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Rich: Excellent idea. Keep being the best man, husband and father you can be. When you can't continue being the best husband because you are too frustrated, explain to your wife that if you stay with her you can't be the husband you want to be. Then leave.
> 
> Frankly, if she says "more kids is a dealbreaker" then you may not have much chance of success. Because we both know that she is not going to be willing to meet your need for sex if you bring another child into the family.
> 
> But it is a big decision and only you know when you have reached the end of your rope.


Have to agree with this. No matter how much you fix the issue, the moment you have another kid, you're back to square one or worse. Plus, at that point you're seriously trapped.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Have to agree with this. No matter how much you fix the issue, the moment you have another kid, you're back to square one or worse. Plus, at that point you're seriously trapped.



Yes, I FEEL that with every fiber of my being. I think we would have to have sustained progress for this to be back on the table. However, every time we have a good week she goes back to talking incessantly about having another baby, baby names, baby sex, etc. I usually freak out a bit inside and it adds to my frustration with our relationship goals being so different. I think romance, couple time, getaways, date nights. She thinks onesies, bottles and belly kicks. 

I want her attention, or what's left of it after our 5 year old and her nightshift job sucks most of her energy up. We've gone through several cycles of her gearing up for pregnancy and me putting the brakes on. It's not good. I've even reluctantly tried to be ok with it and be supportive (I stopped medication in December that I need because it can cause birth defects), but it creeps up on me and I have to be honest and tell her that I don't think it's good to bring another child into the world while we're on shaky ground. She's been devastated at times about this and I haven't gone back on my meds (her either) because that would signal the end of her dream and send her into depression and resentment. She's taking prophylactic prenatal vitamins for gods sake despite these talks. 

I feel like her priorities are off and have told her this. She reluctantly agrees or angrily agrees but then is super cold about things for a while. Lately when she brings it up I show no excitement and don't contribute to the conversation. I let it hang there. She does this passive aggressive thing where she starts to talk and then stops and says that it's nothing, she knows I don't want to hear it. It's completely obvious that she's pining for more children. I don't feed into it. She knows it is not what I want right now. She said the other day for me to go back on my meds and she would restart her birth control and antidepressants. I would be supportive of that but I feel those meds both hurt her already weak libido. 

I. Am. Screwed. And not in the way I'd like. The baby issue is the original reason I stumbled onto TAM.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,
Your wife is 29 - you two do have time. 

That said she's playing hardball with you. No pregnancy = AD = no sex. 

I've got a couple observations that may help you. 
1. You need to detach more. And I don't mean act cold. I mean you need to lean back a bit and calmly assess the marriage. Separate from sex, how do you feel about your wife as a life partner? Do you respect her? Do you like spending time with her?

2. Does she respect you? I'm not sure she does. I am however, sure you can fix that if you want to. 

You are way too tense and way too wrapped up in worrying about her approval or lack thereof - of you. 



Some sex specific comments are below:
1. You need to better differentiate between how she feels and what she does. If she wants to have 'all about you' sex, that's ok. That's commitment. 
2. You need to get better at accepting her viewpoint. Let her take a shower if it enables her to relax during sex. Be playful and relaxed with her - stop pressuring her to do what you want the way you want it. 
3. If she starts out - not so turned on - be patient 






rich84 said:


> Yes, I FEEL that with every fiber of my being. I think we would have to have sustained progress for this to be back on the table. However, every time we have a good week she goes back to talking incessantly about having another baby, baby names, baby sex, etc. I usually freak out a bit inside and it adds to my frustration with our relationship goals being so different. I think romance, couple time, getaways, date nights. She thinks onesies, bottles and belly kicks.
> 
> I want her attention, or what's left of it after our 5 year old and her nightshift job sucks most of her energy up. We've gone through several cycles of her gearing up for pregnancy and me putting the brakes on. It's not good. I've even reluctantly tried to be ok with it and be supportive (I stopped medication in December that I need because it can cause birth defects), but it creeps up on me and I have to be honest and tell her that I don't think it's good to bring another child into the world while we're on shaky ground. She's been devastated at times about this and I haven't gone back on my meds (her either) because that would signal the end of her dream and send her into depression and resentment. She's taking prophylactic prenatal vitamins for gods sake despite these talks.
> 
> ...


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> Your wife is 29 - you two do have time.
> 
> ...



We talked about the baby thing last night. It went better than expected in some respects. She wants me to consider a vasectomy. I told her that's a big decision and I don't think we should make it in haste. In the meantime we agreed to using condoms because birth control messes with her mood and libido. 

To answer your questions:
1. I feel like she is a good partner. She has a lot of qualities that I admire. I think we both wish we had more in common at times. More shared pursuits and interests. There are times when I struggle to respect her. When she doesn't take care of herself or care about her appearance. When she lacks the courage or strength to face the day and confidently take what she wants from life. I get annoyed at her insecurities. But I think she's a good person, a good mother, Etc. Yes, I do like spending time with her very much. 
2. Does she respect me? I think she does. I'm curious why you think she doesn't. I don't think she would say that her lack of meeting my needs is out of not respecting me. I think it's more of an internal struggle for her based on her hang ups. She often gives me praise about my accomplishments and general words of admiration. She generally builds me up. 

Yes, I have been concerned with her approval but I think I've come a long way in deriving that from within. 

Sex specific:
1. She doesn't want to make sex about me as much as she's giving me permission to use her body. Does nothing for me. It's commitment, yes, but not fulfilling. Starfish sex is emotionally painful to me at this point and I'd rather do without. It's not like "I'm not into it tonight honey, but let me take care of you another way like a BJ" or "I don't think I can come so let me show you a good time." I would do that for her in a heartbeat, or the emotional equivalent, whatever she needed. But she's not free and generous with me, and that differential causes resentment to grow. For example, she has really enjoyed oral lately and asked for it specifically. She seems to have gotten over her hangup about it. But how many times has she reciprocated? None. Now, I know that I really enjoy giving her oral and she doesn't really like giving it. But that mismatch makes me feel a little cheated at times. 
2. I'm pretty go with the flow. Sex is such a sensitive thing now that I don't demand it any certain way when we are in the act. I show passion and try to keep it moving, but I don't dictate positions or request things out of her comfort zone. But I'm too tense and not all that playful. There's been so much pressure around sex that I kind of feel it's something that I can't be playful with. But I see that that tension is not helping the situation. I've got to accept it is it's not at the intensity I want, especially while we are trying to get into a groove of things. 
3. Here's where I need some work. I self reject. I know her and I can tell when she is not feeling it. I can push her and sometimes she will respond. But mostly it's "you can be on top" which means she will not enjoy this, will not get into it, and will use it to confirm that all I want is sex (her body) irrespective of her feelings or desire to participate. This means no foreplay, don't even try to get her turned on. It's very closed off and limiting. So, be patient for what? Her to come around? That's why I'm in this mess. I've patiently waited and waited and now I'm tired of waiting. 

Thanks, MEM. Keep pushing me to change my perceptions. I need all the help I can get to stop building resentment and tearing down my relationship. I want to make this work or leave knowing I've given it everything I had. She is a good woman and mother. Loyal. Loving in a lot of ways. I see all the infidelity and struggles here on TAM and it could be so much worse for us. I've made sex into this giant hurdle and I can't see anything else around it. I do see hope in our situation if I can do the right things and not let my frustrations get it the way of something really good.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

I guess I missed that bit - about the starfish sex. 

I actually have a strong view of this. It's toxic to your marriage. 

It sends a collection of bad messages - some from her to you and some from you to her. 

I strongly believe that folks who respect themselves and each other don't engage in Starfish sex. 

I have a post somewhere that explains the dynamic of a downward spiraling, sexually impaired marriage. 

I think I can find it if you like. 






rich84 said:


> We talked about the baby thing last night. It went better than expected in some respects. She wants me to consider a vasectomy. I told her that's a big decision and I don't think we should make it in haste. In the meantime we agreed to using condoms because birth control messes with her mood and libido.
> 
> To answer your questions:
> 1. I feel like she is a good partner. She has a lot of qualities that I admire. I think we both wish we had more in common at times. More shared pursuits and interests. There are times when I struggle to respect her. When she doesn't take care of herself or care about her appearance. When she lacks the courage or strength to face the day and confidently take what she wants from life. I get annoyed at her insecurities. But I think she's a good person, a good mother, Etc. Yes, I do like spending time with her very much.
> ...


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's why I don't do it. If we were to engage in that, I see it as a two way communication:

Her to me: I will "meet" your need in the most poor of fashions just so that you shut up about sex, but I in no way shape or form will enjoy it. I will also use it as a validation of my assumption that you don't care about my wellbeing and all I am to you is a piece of ass. 

Me to her: I know you won't enjoy this and I don't really care. Your satisfaction and lack of desire is irrelevant to me and as long I'm satisfied. 

Early in our marriage I may have misconstrued her message as a genuine invitation. However, it's immediately clear when it's not. If I get a faint hint of no enthusiasm I stop immediately. So we basically never have starfish sex, because I won't allow it. It would be different if she made it about me to mix it up, but that never happens. I don't think she gets any pleasure from pleasing me. 

I do. We had sex last night. I gave her oral for 25-30 minutes, made her come twice. She said she was sensitive and couldn't go again if she tried. My enthusiasm enhanced her experience. So you would think that she might consider returning the favor. I'm freshly showered, etc. Nope. 

I would be interested in that thread.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Bugged said:


> Good partners doen't exactly grow on trees..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm hoping that I'm the biggest barrier here. We are now on the same page about kids (see earlier post). She needs time to process it, but there was a huge shift in her thinking. She has dropped the baby fog and is thinking realistically about what another kid would do to us. She doesn't want that. 

The biggest divide is sex. And I amplify this because it's the one thing that was missing to me. And since our major blowup in March things have been way better. If I assess our sex life quantitatively and qualitatively, there really is no comparison to before. It's been super rocky, no doubt. But better. I am the one who keeps throwing up road blocks. I have to deal with my built up resentment and lead us into a healthier place. Some of the advice given to me here is to lighten up, make things more fun/playful, and stop putting so much stress on this aspect of our relationship. I can and do need to improve here. 

Throughout she has said over and over that she is committed, that divorce is not an option for her, etc. Divorce and finding someone more sexual would only be an option for me if it was abundantly clear that my basic level of needs were not ever going to be met. Frustration would probably get me to that point. But she says she is willing to try. And until she says she is not willing or her words are complete lip service, I'm going to keep challenging myself to make it work.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
this is the part that I simply don't get. How can someone be so selfish to someone that they love?

Maybe it is just the classic LD/HD problem again. The LD person to a large extent has never experienced rejection and simply doesn't know how it feels. They think "you enjoy doing it for me ,I don't like doing it for you, so we are both happy if only you do it - they think that is fair). 

Maybe it is fair, or even more fair to just not have sex - and as LD person they are OK with that.

Maybe they can change. My very LD wife has been doing much better after our last conversation, she seems to understand that while sex doesn't matter to her, it does to me - but we will see how long this lasts. 








rich84 said:


> snip
> I do. We had sex last night. I gave her oral for 25-30 minutes, made her come twice. She said she was sensitive and couldn't go again if she tried. My enthusiasm enhanced her experience. So you would think that she might consider returning the favor. I'm freshly showered, etc. Nope.
> 
> I would be interested in that thread.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

To me the no starfish sex is a positive improvement even if you don't have sex as often as if you permitted this.

I think expecting / hoping for / resenting the absence of oral sex form her to you is unproductive. It is highly unlikely to occur in this marriage. If you choose to stay with her, you are making the choice to forego receiving oral. She doesn't like doing it. She doesn't receive enough satisfaction from bringing you pleasure to overcome whatever discomfort she feels in doing it. The more you press, the more you are likely to feed her negative feelings about oral, sex in general, and you as a husband and person. Not helping your cause or getting closer to your goal of a more interactive mutually satisfying sex life.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> 
> this is the part that I simply don't get. How can someone be so selfish to someone that they love?
> 
> ...



Yeah, I don't get it either. I get satisfaction from bringing her pleasure. It's a turn on. I suspect it does not turn her on at all. I also suspect she wants to please me, but just within the confines of her relatively narrow comfort zone. I could ask her outright for it and she would do it... unenthusiastically. I would rather get it scarcely when she's into it than regularly of a half-assed nature. It's happened a couple times in the last few months since we've been working on things, which is an improvement. I've gone years without a BJ before. She's not particularly good at it either, which may help me to not want it as much. 😄 Enthusiasm is half of the skill. 

When we were dating she gave me oral in a movie theater and I went in her mouth. My advanced warning was rather weak. She hates the taste. It traumatized her, lol. It's been scarce ever since.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> To me the no starfish sex is a positive improvement even if you don't have sex as often as if you permitted this.
> 
> 
> 
> I think expecting / hoping for / resenting the absence of oral sex form her to you is unproductive. It is highly unlikely to occur in this marriage. If you choose to stay with her, you are making the choice to forego receiving oral. She doesn't like doing it. She doesn't receive enough satisfaction from bringing you pleasure to overcome whatever discomfort she feels in doing it. The more you press, the more you are likely to feed her negative feelings about oral, sex in general, and you as a husband and person. Not helping your cause or getting closer to your goal of a more interactive mutually satisfying sex life.



I agree. I can live without it. Focus on enhancing the strengths. I was just pointing out a fundamental difference in how we approach sex. As you mentioned, I get pleasure from bringing her pleasure. She apparently does not (as much).


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
not to be mean to her, but how was she expecting it to go?  Unless this was pre-planned with cleanup materials, finishing in her mouth is sort of the only reasonable option in that sort of scenario. (I also consider that to be part of a BJ). 

Besides, I've tried durian. It is the most vile tasting thing you can imagine (to most people) - but I wasn't *traumatized*. 



rich84 said:


> snip
> 
> When we were dating she gave me oral in a movie theater and I went in her mouth. My advanced warning was rather weak. She hates the taste. It traumatized her, lol. It's been scarce ever since.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> 
> not to be mean to her, but how was she expecting it to go?  Unless this was pre-planned with cleanup materials, finishing in her mouth is sort of the only reasonable option in that sort of scenario. (I also consider that to be part of a BJ).
> 
> ...



Spontaneous, not pre-planned. And I was being facetious. 😄 Although, she really doesn't like it. I guess that's not uncommon.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

This is very good - your grasp of this starfish dynamic is excellent. 

I admit that your depiction of your wife's response to you is not very positive. 

Like you, I LIKE making M2 happy. This is no secret. I have always been this way. I would say that outside the bedroom we mostly do things the way she likes because:
- Most things matter to her
- And most things do NOT matter to me

Inside the bedroom we've always mostly done things the way I like. 

M2's theme in this regard is simple: As part of being an excellent wife, it's my job to make sure you are happy in bed - because you vowed to forsake everyone else. 







rich84 said:


> That's why I don't do it. If we were to engage in that, I see it as a two way communication:
> 
> Her to me: I will "meet" your need in the most poor of fashions just so that you shut up about sex, but I in no way shape or form will enjoy it. I will also use it as a validation of my assumption that you don't care about my wellbeing and all I am to you is a piece of ass.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

Why is she taking you for granted? 





rich84 said:


> That's why I don't do it. If we were to engage in that, I see it as a two way communication:
> 
> Her to me: I will "meet" your need in the most poor of fashions just so that you shut up about sex, but I in no way shape or form will enjoy it. I will also use it as a validation of my assumption that you don't care about my wellbeing and all I am to you is a piece of ass.
> 
> ...





rich84 said:


> Thanks. Don't think I need to buy that though. I think this is a strength of mine and this is the easiest and most intense way to make her come. It's the lack of reciprocation that is somewhat troubling.
> 
> Don't want to make this thread about oral sex though. As much as it is a fun topic. 😄


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> 
> 
> Why is she taking you for granted?



Enter resentment, stage left.

Because she can. I mean could, before I stopped tolerating it. She knows it means divorce if things don't pick up. I'm calling her on her bull**** which is why it's been such a tumultuous few months.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Bugged said:


> Oh but we have that thread in sim..although the _tone _has become pretty _phylosophycal _by now...let me sum it up for you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. I've gathered. 

2. Yeah. If she doesn't want to do something, she can find any and every reason not to do it. 

I know you're kidding based on the oral discussion. But I've thought about it a lot over the last few months. Even romanticized. However, it's not what I want. I love her. There's a compromise here, it's just if she's willing to make it. But now I'm not as afraid of leaving if it truly feels hopeless. I feel like I have some element of control back in my life in that respect.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

So here's the thing. I have absolutely zero idea how things work between you and R2. None. 

What I mean is - you two have a dynamic - a style of interaction. And this style - is incredibly important. It creates a context within which the physical part of the marriage either thrives or dies. 

Let me try to describe our style as it has been so helpful over time.

Playfulness rules - in the world of primates there is no greater gift than playfulness. It is quite literally the sharing of my happiness with you. 

Non sexual affection (NSA) without an agenda creates a level of connection and trust that cannot be produced by the most skillful use of speech. When I touch you it is for YOU not for me. This directionality is powerful. It creates a positive emotional association with touch. This pattern creates a Pavlovian response to touch. It releases endorphins. 

Playfulness extended to NSA means sparring or wrestling or butt smacking. 

As far as sex goes. I will say what is true - and over time you will learn this for yourself. It is 100% your responsibility to create a positive overall tone with R2. AND it is 100% her responsibility to learn how to work with her responsive desire. 

M2 and I have connected many thousands of times in our 25 years together. More than HALF of the time she did not feel lust when we started touching. More than half. This was never an issue for us. She taught me how to get her warmed up in a way she liked. 

And when she couldn't get all the way there she never had to pretend with me. But she never star fished me. Not once in our 25 years together. Just as I've never complained that she wasn't as turned on as me. 

R2 needs to make a decision. If she remains stuck in the selfish posture below, I don't see your marriage surviving: 

"if I'm not in the mood - we aren't having sex - or if we do - I'm not going to relax and let you GET ME in the mood. Instead I'm gong to lie there and make it clear I am barely tolerating your touch....




=rich84;13033602]Enter resentment, stage left.

Because she can. I mean could, before I stopped tolerating it. She knows it means divorce if things don't pick up. I'm calling her on her bull**** which is why it's been such a tumultuous few months.[/QUOTE]


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


I agree. We do have a high level of NSA. She requires it to feel loved. I don't really know another couple that is as touchy feely as us. If I don't initiate this or reciprocate this, she feels that I'm being cold and distant. I could be all smiles, but still. Now I like this too so I'm happy to oblige. I'm ok with pda and the such. 

I think where we got off course over the last year was that I grew some resentment about the lack of sex and I reduced my emotional engagement and also my NSA. This caused her to withdraw as well and we entered into some kind of roommate hell. 

In the last few months we've been trying to R. I've been up and down and overall playfulness has not been there. But NSA has and she's made an effort to increase sex. It's been enthusiastic and more adventurous for the most part too. Now I've not pushed for sex whenever I wanted it. It would overwhelm her. I try to feel out her mood, energy level, etc. based on her work patterns (nightshift) and target days I think it's reasonable to initiate (or she's initiated). However, when I do wish that we could have sex and I'm rejected or it's just clear that it ain't happening, I've gone back to that resentment and anger instead of being cool and trying another day. I've literally fumed and questioned everything and our entire R and had positive thoughts about life after divorce. Which is the death of our positive milieu that were working on. 

I'm honestly not sure what would happen if I took her up on "just you be on top." I don't know now if she would warm up and allow me to get her aroused. I would agree with your situation in that she usually isn't rip roaring aroused when we start and I have to give her something to be responsive to. Things are different now. Like I said, she way more open to things and fully understands that it's important to me and therefore important to us.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

How many non work hours a week do you spend: Outside the house without your wife?

The reason I ask is this. If your wife is trying hard to monopolize your schedule AND is into this high touch mode - she's structurally creating a system of constant reinforcement FOR HER that you love her. And that constant reinforcement is largely why she takes you for granted. 

So - don't get mad - as that is counterproductive. Just create a healthy amount of space. And I can't tell you what that is. I can only tell you that it can't be done while you to are together - without it seeming 'distant'. 

If she's treating you well - she won't feel threatened by you having some time to yourself/with friends. If she's taking you for granted, those activities will make her anxious - but that is NOT your issue. 







I agree. We do have a high level of NSA. She requires it to feel loved. I don't really know another couple that is as touchy feely as us. If I don't initiate this or reciprocate this, she feels that I'm being cold and distant. I could be all smiles, but still. Now I like this too so I'm happy to oblige. I'm ok with pda and the such. 

I think where we got off course over the last year was that I grew some resentment about the lack of sex and I reduced my emotional engagement and also my NSA. This caused her to withdraw as well and we entered into some kind of roommate hell. 

In the last few months we've been trying to R. I've been up and down and overall playfulness has not been there. But NSA has and she's made an effort to increase sex. It's been enthusiastic and more adventurous for the most part too. Now I've not pushed for sex whenever I wanted it. It would overwhelm her. I try to feel out her mood, energy level, etc. based on her work patterns (nightshift) and target days I think it's reasonable to initiate (or she's initiated). However, when I do wish that we could have sex and I'm rejected or it's just clear that it ain't happening, I've gone back to that resentment and anger instead of being cool and trying another day. I've literally fumed and questioned everything and our entire R and had positive thoughts about life after divorce. Which is the death of our positive milieu that were working on. 

I'm honestly not sure what would happen if I took her up on "just you be on top." I don't know now if she would warm up and allow me to get her aroused. I would agree with your situation in that she usually isn't rip roaring aroused when we start and I have to give her something to be responsive to. Things are different now. Like I said, she way more open to things and fully understands that it's important to me and therefore important to us.[/QUOTE]


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I read this quite a few times, MEM. It hit home for me. 

Since early in our relationship she worked to isolate me from friends and to monopolize my time. She would pout if I chose to do something independent of her. It could be as big as a boys trip with my family or as small as taking an hour to exercise. She would either bull up and become icey (former situation) or pout (latter) until I gave in. I based a lot of decisions over the years on how she was going to feel about it. And I resented that. 

Several things have changed in the last year. I recognized that this wasn't healthy. And I started doing what I wanted more and not caring about her reaction. It started with work trips. I'm now up to about 4 nearly week long business trips per year, and they're completely mandatory. This set a little precedent that she could survive on her own. She doesn't like them, but she copes much better now. Then I started going to an annual guys trip with some of my relatives. And now I exercise when I want to even if that cuts into our "quality time." 

A couple things have happened. She has over time become more accepting of it. She now knows that I will be taking an hour on the weekends to go run (I exercise early on weekdays before work). And she actually encourages it or says when it it might work best within our plans for the day. Lately I have been doing this sometimes of an evening and during week days. This would have sent her into full pout mode before and now she says she understands that I need it. And she's warm and excited to see me when I return. 

She needs me to stand up to her and be independent of her and tell her this is how it's going to be despite her working to the contrary. It's completely counterintuitive to what she says she needs, but it's true. I keep working on it. And it's making my life more fulfilling.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Forgot to answer your question! 

Work: 40-45 hours avg. per week
exercise: 14 hours per week avg. 
Friends/family: 4 hours per week
Independent time when she works: 8 hours per week of daytime


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

We certainly have some shared experiences. I think you've handled this bit very well. 

I have learned to say: THIS is important to me (in a soft, firm voice) 

M2 understands that means: I've heard your feedback, I'm proceeding with my plan. It's also true that, in the spirit of kindness I say two things as I'm about to walk out the door:
1. Offer an act of service (would you like me to pick anything up from the groc store on my way home later) 
2. Suggest quality time together (do you want to play ping pong when I get home)

The subtext of those two things is the same: you're important to me, I love you

This doesn't change the fact that M2's hard wired preference is that I do everything that I do - with her. Everything. I don't give her grief about this because it's counterproductive. Instead I have a short list of things that I do with friends and family, and handle them as described above. 

On the flip side, I am glad she is tight with her family, that she has friends, does things without me. I encourage and support that. 









rich84 said:


> I read this quite a few times, MEM. It hit home for me.
> 
> Since early in our relationship she worked to isolate me from friends and to monopolize my time. She would pout if I chose to do something independent of her. It could be as big as a boys trip with my family or as small as taking an hour to exercise. She would either bull up and become icey (former situation) or pout (latter) until I gave in. I based a lot of decisions over the years on how she was going to feel about it. And I resented that.
> 
> ...


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree with this philosophy, and I've been working on carrying it out down to the letter. I don't think I've ever said that I outright need something (with the exception of exercise for my health and pleasure), but I think that might give her context into the importance of an activity to me.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

rich84 said:


> I read this quite a few times, MEM. It hit home for me.
> 
> Since early in our relationship she worked to isolate me from friends and to monopolize my time. She would pout if I chose to do something independent of her. It could be as big as a boys trip with my family or as small as taking an hour to exercise. She would either bull up and become icey (former situation) or pout (latter) until I gave in. I based a lot of decisions over the years on how she was going to feel about it. And I resented that.
> 
> ...



Are you sure she's ok with it? How do you know she doesn't do what you did, go along with it because it is what it is but secretly resent it? How do you make sure this doesn't happen?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,
I actually believe it's good to avoid the phrase 'I need' in this context. Because it implies that your partner actually has the ability to influence/veto your choice. 

I say: exercising is important to me
Or 
This friendship is important to me. (M2 has some jealousy issues which I address with low key humor). 

These statements don't lend themselves to debate. And frankly don't really encourage a lot of discussion. 

Fortunately my list is short - so this makes life easier. 






rich84 said:


> I agree with this philosophy, and I've been working on carrying it out down to the letter. I don't think I've ever said that I outright need something (with the exception of exercise for my health and pleasure), but I think that might give her context into the importance of an activity to me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Life,
Good questions. This is very big stuff. I would say the following to ANY person - man or woman. 

Don't let a jealous and/or needy spouse disrupt your relationships and/or your workout schedule. 

Because you don't have to. They will either accept that you are still an individual, with agency or they will tank/end the marriage. 

None of this absolves you from responsibility for being a good to great partner. It just means that you shouldn't give up being yourself - just to stay paired. 








lifeistooshort said:


> Are you sure she's ok with it? How do you know she doesn't do what you did, go along with it because it is what it is but secretly resent it? How do you make sure this doesn't happen?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Life,
> Good questions. This is very big stuff. I would say the following to ANY person - man or woman.
> 
> Don't let a jealous and/or needy spouse disrupt your relationships and/or your workout schedule.
> ...


Oh I agree. I certainly don't think you necessarily need your spouse's approval to keep a reasonable workout schedule and have a reasonable social life. But it is a good idea to keep in mind that this resentment could indeed be there even if you think the risk is worth it. 

Because what could happen is one day she'll decide she's done with the marriage, and if so there is no justification to be blindsided if you knew this could end up being a deal breaker. If he's clear about this and is simply putting his boundaries in place with the understanding that it could, in the worst case scenario, end the marriage then that's fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> Are you sure she's ok with it? How do you know she doesn't do what you did, go along it because it is what it is but secretly resent it? How do you make sure this doesn't happen?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I guess that is a very real possibility. What's the alternative? Have nothing for myself? If it truly comes between intimacy, this modicum of independence, then things are probably not salvageable. I tried it her way for quite some time and it ended up landing us in roommate status. So bending to her every whim is not a way to avoid her resentment. And I know it builds mine. So I feel I have to try to carve out something or else lose myself on top of being frustrated about our sex life.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

I've never loved anyone like I love M2. Never known anyone completely - and fully accepted them like this. 

The upside is M2 craves my company, my touch and a decent amount of sex. 

That said - great as things are - if my modest independent activity level caused her to threaten divorce, I'd just accept that we were incompatible. 

The best way to frame that is: You're definitely my highest priority, however you aren't my ONLY priority




=rich84;13046450]I guess that is a very real possibility. What's the alternative? Have nothing for myself? If it truly comes between intimacy, this modicum of independence, then things are probably not salvageable. I tried it her way for quite some time and it ended up landing us in roommate status. So bending to her every whim is not a way to avoid her resentment. And I know it builds mine. So I feel I have to try to carve out something or else lose myself on top of being frustrated about our sex life.[/QUOTE]


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

rich84 said:


> I guess that is a very real possibility. What's the alternative? Have nothing for myself? If it truly comes between intimacy, this modicum of independence, then things are probably not salvageable. I tried it her way for quite some time and it ended up landing us in roommate status. So bending to her every whim is not a way to avoid her resentment. And I know it builds mine. So I feel I have to try to carve out something or else lose myself on top of being frustrated about our sex life.


Of course not, just something to keep in mind.

I would ask yourself, when planning solo activities, whether it's reasonable for a married man. There's a long road between having nothing for yourself and bending to her every whim and acting like a single person. A good rule of thumb is to ask yourself if you'd be ok with her doing what you're doing.

Going to the gym? No brainer. Meeting a buddy for a drink and/or a game? No brainer. Meeting a buddy for a drink 3 times a week and a weekend? No good. Planning week long trips with buddies? Ok once in a while but otherwise over the top for a married man.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


I doubt that my modest independence is something she would resent enough to consider divorce or to cause serious issues in our marriage. 

I think it is me causing that friction, threatening divorce, and scrambling to try to see improvements that is the issue. I think if I just forgot about sex she would be a happy gal. 

Last night we had been cuddling for a couple hours, holding hands, watching women's soccer (something she wanted). This was after we had her parents over for dinner and I worked a puzzle with her at her request. We had gone to the store together, spent every minute together, etc. I even got up early to exercise before she or my daughter woke up so that it wouldn't cut into our day. I had done many acts of service including solo cleaning up after dinner, helping prepare dinner, putting all the groceries away, etc. 

I had started out trying to kiss her (she wouldn't reciprocate much except for a few kisses and would stop) and sexual touching (breasts, stomach, etc.). She knew what was up but she wouldn't respond or reciprocate. In my head I knew she didn't want to. Her body language was unyielding. And me not wanting to have sex with her in this semi-unwilling state, half gave up. I asked her what she was thinking, and she said that she knew I wanted sex. 

We ended up talking about it until after 1am (this started at 9:30). she said it was too forced. She said, after prompting her, that she knew it had been 4 days and that I would want to have sex. It was like she was spending 20 minutes wrangling with that fact, trying to work herself up to considering the possibility of sex. She felt that I was weakly coming on to her and it wasn't doing anything for her (I was, but she could have given some symbol that it was ok - she was completely closed off). 

Yes I could have just taken her. It just messes with my head that I know she isn't into it. And so it's hard to get excited about it and show her some fire. It's so serious and there's no playfulness there about sex. 

She said that she has no baseline sex drive but she always really likes it when we do. Basically complete responsive desire - it is completely on me to get her worked up to the level she would consider having sex. I said if it always is great then why wouldn't you want to do this with me instead of letting it go for a week and acting like you dread it and have to work yourself up to it? She basically accused me of just wanting to get "serviced," that my love is conditional on sex. 

She also said that she's so tired of this issue. Basically she's at he end of her rope. She said it's been the worst year ever and this is not how she pictured her life. That she wanted another kid and a happy marriage. I told her that I've been miserable all year as well. She brought up our getaway trip in February. And how she was blindsided that I didn't enjoy it, that she didn't know my agenda was all about sex. I asked her what do you think a romantic getaway is all about? Connecting, reinvigorating our relationship, etc. She was happy with our roommate vacay until I said I wasn't. She says she's always blindsided, thinking things are going well until I bring up my dissatisfaction with sex again. 

I am so frustrated that I don't even want her right now. Don't want to give her what she needs, even if that's counterproductive.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

Interesting. So she wants a rather intense level of interaction including a very high level of physical contact - but doesn't understand that all that emotional and physical contact is going to make you feel strong sexual desire?

The last time you connected, you took her to the rapture twice. And yet she frames this as 'you just wanting to get serviced'.

As for just 'taking her'. If that's what actually gets her hot - fine. 

But if her response to being 'taken' is to 'star fish' it. That's a total no go. Because that's a form of hostility - her to you. 

This leads to a simple question. 

Why is it she dislikes sex? And yes - mostly she does dislike it. 

Not saying she is incapable of having an O. Saying that the overall experience doesn't do it for her. 




I doubt that my modest independence is something she would resent enough to consider divorce or to cause serious issues in our marriage. 

I think it is me causing that friction, threatening divorce, and scrambling to try to see improvements that is the issue. I think if I just forgot about sex she would be a happy gal. 

Last night we had been cuddling for a couple hours, holding hands, watching women's soccer (something she wanted). This was after we had her parents over for dinner and I worked a puzzle with her at her request. We had gone to the store together, spent every minute together, etc. I even got up early to exercise before she or my daughter woke up so that it wouldn't cut into our day. I had done many acts of service including solo cleaning up after dinner, helping prepare dinner, putting all the groceries away, etc. 

I had started out trying to kiss her (she wouldn't reciprocate much except for a few kisses and would stop) and sexual touching (breasts, stomach, etc.). She knew what was up but she wouldn't respond or reciprocate. In my head I knew she didn't want to. Her body language was unyielding. And me not wanting to have sex with her in this semi-unwilling state, half gave up. I asked her what she was thinking, and she said that she knew I wanted sex. 

We ended up talking about it until after 1am (this started at 9:30). she said it was too forced. She said, after prompting her, that she knew it had been 4 days and that I would want to have sex. It was like she was spending 20 minutes wrangling with that fact, trying to work herself up to considering the possibility of sex. She felt that I was weakly coming on to her and it wasn't doing anything for her (I was, but she could have given some symbol that it was ok - she was completely closed off). 

Yes I could have just taken her. It just messes with my head that I know she isn't into it. And so it's hard to get excited about it and show her some fire. It's so serious and there's no playfulness there about sex. 

She said that she has no baseline sex drive but she always really likes it when we do. Basically complete responsive desire - it is completely on me to get her worked up to the level she would consider having sex. I said if it always is great then why wouldn't you want to do this with me instead of letting it go for a week and acting like you dread it and have to work yourself up to it? She basically accused me of just wanting to get "serviced," that my love is conditional on sex. 

She also said that she's so tired of this issue. Basically she's at he end of her rope. She said it's been the worst year ever and this is not how she pictured her life. That she wanted another kid and a happy marriage. I told her that I've been miserable all year as well. She brought up our getaway trip in February. And how she was blindsided that I didn't enjoy it, that she didn't know my agenda was all about sex. I asked her what do you think a romantic getaway is all about? Connecting, reinvigorating our relationship, etc. She was happy with our roommate vacay until I said I wasn't. She says she's always blindsided, thinking things are going well until I bring up my dissatisfaction with sex again. 

I am so frustrated that I don't even want her right now. Don't want to give her what she needs, even if that's counterproductive.[/QUOTE]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

I do think you are the problem. That's not intended as a critique. It's a well intentioned observation. 

Your not leading the marriage, you're reacting to it. That's not going to work. That's never going to work. 

That doesn't mean you aren't allowed to have needs. It DOES mean that the way you are 'mis' managing your wife will end in tears. 

You my man have been sold a false 'bill of goods'. Folks have told you that 'dominance' is a dirty word. That is not the case, never has been, never will be. 

Dominance has no polarity to it. It's neither inherently good or bad. It, like gravity - just 'is'. 

I'm going to now repeat what I said earlier. But with more emphasis. 

Based on what I'm reading, your wife needs a transition to go from this soft, lovey dovey, totally female version of interaction - to sex. 

This is where playful conflict becomes necessary. Take the remote control. Do something that provokes her. Anything. And then challenge her. Do X or I will spank you. And then it's on. And it needs to happen where she is fighting you. 

Our rules of engagement are: M2 gets to do anything she wants other than strike eyes or throat. I don't strike at all. Just wrestle. If she gets pinned face down, she gets spanked - which she doesn't especially like - though it does turn her on. 

You need to go from 'lovey dovey' to 'fighting'. Because '****ing' follows fighting, like day follows night. 






I doubt that my modest independence is something she would resent enough to consider divorce or to cause serious issues in our marriage. 

I think it is me causing that friction, threatening divorce, and scrambling to try to see improvements that is the issue. I think if I just forgot about sex she would be a happy gal. 

Last night we had been cuddling for a couple hours, holding hands, watching women's soccer (something she wanted). This was after we had her parents over for dinner and I worked a puzzle with her at her request. We had gone to the store together, spent every minute together, etc. I even got up early to exercise before she or my daughter woke up so that it wouldn't cut into our day. I had done many acts of service including solo cleaning up after dinner, helping prepare dinner, putting all the groceries away, etc. 

I had started out trying to kiss her (she wouldn't reciprocate much except for a few kisses and would stop) and sexual touching (breasts, stomach, etc.). She knew what was up but she wouldn't respond or reciprocate. In my head I knew she didn't want to. Her body language was unyielding. And me not wanting to have sex with her in this semi-unwilling state, half gave up. I asked her what she was thinking, and she said that she knew I wanted sex. 

We ended up talking about it until after 1am (this started at 9:30). she said it was too forced. She said, after prompting her, that she knew it had been 4 days and that I would want to have sex. It was like she was spending 20 minutes wrangling with that fact, trying to work herself up to considering the possibility of sex. She felt that I was weakly coming on to her and it wasn't doing anything for her (I was, but she could have given some symbol that it was ok - she was completely closed off). 

Yes I could have just taken her. It just messes with my head that I know she isn't into it. And so it's hard to get excited about it and show her some fire. It's so serious and there's no playfulness there about sex. 

She said that she has no baseline sex drive but she always really likes it when we do. Basically complete responsive desire - it is completely on me to get her worked up to the level she would consider having sex. I said if it always is great then why wouldn't you want to do this with me instead of letting it go for a week and acting like you dread it and have to work yourself up to it? She basically accused me of just wanting to get "serviced," that my love is conditional on sex. 

She also said that she's so tired of this issue. Basically she's at he end of her rope. She said it's been the worst year ever and this is not how she pictured her life. That she wanted another kid and a happy marriage. I told her that I've been miserable all year as well. She brought up our getaway trip in February. And how she was blindsided that I didn't enjoy it, that she didn't know my agenda was all about sex. I asked her what do you think a romantic getaway is all about? Connecting, reinvigorating our relationship, etc. She was happy with our roommate vacay until I said I wasn't. She says she's always blindsided, thinking things are going well until I bring up my dissatisfaction with sex again. 

I am so frustrated that I don't even want her right now. Don't want to give her what she needs, even if that's counterproductive.[/QUOTE]


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've told her this, but I'm not sure that she grasps it. For her, the physical and emotional contact is sustaining. It doesn't lead her want to jump my bones. It drives me up the wall, however. 

I tried to explain this. Look how I aim to please you and bring you pleasure. Is this "wanting to get serviced?" I know she has to get it, but it's all just pushing for more sex to her. She said she could never match my intensity. She asked if we had ever been at that level. We agreed briefly while the relationship was new. I think we got there again briefly while initially trying to R this March/April. Since then I've wanted to sustain that, but she thinks it's not realistic. She says she can meet my need but just not with any type of enthusiasm that would be fulfilling to me. 

I tell her she's not really into me, doesn't really love me. She thinks that is preposterous.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

I think I have to somehow try to cool down about it and take some pressure off it. I'm driving myself mad and making it into something all-consuming. In the end I'm driving our wedge further and frustrating myself. She knows exactly how I feel - we've hashed it ad nauseum. So things will improve or not and I'll have to make a decision.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

rich84 said:


> I tell her she's not really into me, doesn't really love me. She thinks that is preposterous.


Sadly, I think you are correct. She's really not "into" you. My husband wasn't "into" me either. We divorced.

Partners who are "into" you feel an attraction, a pull, that makes them WANT to connect sexually. Frequently and enthusiastically. You can go round and round with this dance for years, but she is telling you in plain language that she will never be an enthusiastic lover. Can you live with that?

I couldn't, and I found a new one. And life is very, VERY good now.

The only way out of this maze is intense counseling for her. Barring that, I would opt out of the marriage.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

I'm going to give you some clarity - not because I'm smarter - or more perceptive. Solely because I've been married 25 years and I am observant by nature and blessed with a good memory. 

You MUST totally stop gauging her conduct in terms of how much she loves you. Going forward any discussion of this sort HAS TO be framed solely in terms of 'compatibility'. This is not a word game. This is the truth. 

I believe you both love each other. Sincerely believe that. You may or may not be compatible. Don't know. 

I'll share a few points about M2. She HATES weakness. It turns her off. Me being upset/angry IS weakness. Anger is a secondary emotion. The primary emotions which cause it are almost always either fear or hurt. 

This is why playful/firm in the face of adversity is so powerful. You can't be sincerely playful while angry. Therefore playfulness signals the absence of fear or hurt. 

You can't do this covert contract of being 'Mr Perfect' all day. And by the way - I already know you did the whole soft/gentle/cuddly thing without any playful edge to it. I know that because doing that fully met her need for physical and emo intimacy. Once she reaches that point - sex is - too much intimacy. 

It would be like eating a four course meal to the point where you are 100%+ full and now I hand you a large candy bar and say. If you open the wrapper you MUST eat the whole bar. 






rich84 said:


> I've told her this, but I'm not sure that she grasps it. For her, the physical and emotional contact is sustaining. It doesn't lead her want to jump my bones. It drives me up the wall, however.
> 
> I tried to explain this. Look how I aim to please you and bring you pleasure. Is this "wanting to get serviced?" I know she has to get it, but it's all just pushing for more sex to her. She said she could never match my intensity. She asked if we had ever been at that level. We agreed briefly while the relationship was new. I think we got there again briefly while initially trying to R this March/April. Since then I've wanted to sustain that, but she thinks it's not realistic. She says she can meet my need but just not with any type of enthusiasm that would be fulfilling to me.
> 
> I tell her she's not really into me, doesn't really love me. She thinks that is preposterous.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

rich84 said:


> I think I have to somehow try to cool down about it and take some pressure off it. I'm driving myself mad and making it into something all-consuming. In the end I'm driving our wedge further and frustrating myself. She knows exactly how I feel - we've hashed it ad nauseum. So things will improve or not and I'll have to make a decision.


It drives you nuts because her behavior is so illogical. You WANT to reason with her. You think that if she could just UNDERSTAND, she'd change her behavior. Sorry, that's not going to work. It worked for me (on the 3rd wife!), but apparently it doesn't work for most people.

So, you've got two choices: 

1) Try the "take her" approach and see if that gets her juices going (this is apparently what a lot of women want although all of society's messages say it isn't). That's also only if you want to take this approach (I wouldn't, but I'm pretty sure I'm an outlier). 

2) Alternately (or if you tried option 1 and it didn't work), give it up, file the papers. There's a side benefit that this might cause her reasoning ability to take on a bigger role in her behavior. But don't count on it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Buddy,

Totally agree that talking about this - is counter productive.

The issue with using divorce as a strategy - is that it is rarely sustainable. 

He needs to fix their dynamic. I am genuinely - super nice - to M2. And I mix in enough playfulness and edge to keep things interesting. 

The fact that the OP did the 'saturation thing' in daily conduct combined with divorce talk - very toxic. 

I've been hesitant to hammer on this theme but - if you watched us for a week you'd say: Wow that guy loves his wife - very true

It's also true that I don't NEED M2. And that makes everything completely different. 





Buddy400 said:


> It drives you nuts because her behavior is so illogical. You WANT to reason with her. You think that if she could just UNDERSTAND, she'd change her behavior. Sorry, that's not going to work. It worked for me (on the 3rd wife!), but apparently it doesn't work for most people.
> 
> So, you've got two choices:
> 
> ...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> The issue with using divorce as a strategy - is that it is rarely sustainable.


\

I agree that divorce shouldn't be used as a strategy. It should only be brought up if divorce is preferable and you have tried everything else to save the marriage.

It _could_ result in the SO taking one's concerns more seriously (it HAS happened), but it probably won't. So it shouldn't be done for that reason.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ideally divorce isn't something you discuss. Its something you do. 

Doesn't mean there isn't communication. Just means that the communication is very different. For example:
- I'm concerned we have some compatibility issues
- It seems like your idea of a great marriage is: .......
- While my idea of a great marriage is ......

And then you shut up. You've described the issue. Your spouse either cares or doesn't. If they don't, you start focusing more on taking care of you.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I agree with MEM, her desire is not a measure of how much she loves you. It might be a measure of how into you she is. 

I say might because I'm allowing for other issues like hormones and stress that have nothing to do with you. 

I don't think there are that many low or no drive people, most of them would have a drive with a partner they're into.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> I agree with MEM, her desire is not a measure of how much she loves you. It might be a measure of how into you she is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I do think she has a drive under there, but it's easily squashed. Our reoccurring arguments about sex, her insecurities about her body, a demanding child, housework, a high stress nightshift job, etc. all whittle away at it. I believe she loves me. I don't think she's into me sexually quite like I am into her, however. 

Sometimes I can get her very aroused. It's perplexing because we can have great sex and it's obvious she enjoyed herself, and then she can go days upon days and not need it again. So that's why I say she's not into me. But she says she is. I don't know. Sometimes I just want to have sex with her, and my libido isn't even driving me nuts. I just enjoy it with her and being close. She couldn't view sex that way.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM,
Can you elaborate on the toxicity of saturation in combo with divorce talk?

I have been trying to be all in, which includes continuing to try to meet her needs and giving her an opportunity to meet mine. However, if enough time passes and she ignores mine I get resentful and bring up the sex issue. It came up indirectly last night as I described because it was the white elephant in the room. I really didn't want to get into it. Whenever we talk now it comes to a point at the notion that we are headed towards divorce if this keeps being a problem for us. 

Now I feel that any more talk on the subject is counterproductive. But it will resurface if I am either distant enough not to feel emotionally vulnerable (she will bring it up) or I meet her needs but get resentful about her lack of reciprocation. I don't see a clear path to R.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

rich84 said:


> It's perplexing because we can have great sex and it's obvious she enjoyed herself, and then she can go days upon days and not need it again.


You are* far *from the first man to experience this and wonder what's going on.

I'm afraid it may be a feeling that they don't want to give you sex; they want you to take it (because that's what a *real man *does). I'm not the least bit happy about this (and hope it's not true), but I suspect that's how it is.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Rich: you need to be less available. Less giving. Less concerned with her moods. Fewer covert contracts. You do for your wife what you enjoy doing. You do not do for your wife what you do not enjoy doing. If she starts complaining that don't do enough, tell her that she needs to find a way to help you enjoy the other tasks enough to do them.

Do not allow her to trap you into a discussion of being a good husband or a good friend or what you are expected or obliged to do as a husband. Those are all red herrings.

She is already following my suggestion. She does what she enjoys. She doesn't do what she doesn't enjoy. And she expects you to be fine with that. Which you should be, if you are free to do the same. She has already set the ground rules for your marriage. Either play by those rules or get out of the game.

She is not interested in having a "I do whatever I can for you, and you do whatever you can for me" kind of marriage. She is far from alone in that view.

There are probably 3 or 4 things (including but not limited to sex) that she can do that help you feel more loved by her. If she does those things, the list of things you enjoy doing for her expands. If she fails / refuses to do them, your list contracts. This is the nature of relationships. The problem is that you have broken the connection. Your list of what you will do for her does not depend on her behavior. You do everything you can do regardless of how she treats you. YOU have broken the connection between her behavior and how much you enjoy doing for her. You need to re-establish this dynamic.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

rich84 said:


> Now I feel that any more talk on the subject is counterproductive. But it will resurface if I am either distant enough not to feel emotionally vulnerable (she will bring it up) or I meet her needs but get resentful about her lack of reciprocation. I don't see a clear path to R.


If and when you feel that she isn't trying to make progress, distance yourself enough to not feel emotionally vulnerable. When she brings it up (and only if she brings it up) tell her that you are distancing yourself enough to not feel emotionally vulnerable. If she asks why, tell her that you've already discussed that in the past and that you are done talking about it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,
If you are intensely enmeshed with me for 4 straight days - and we are suddenly edge of divorce on day 5, how can I ever feel safe with you? 

And don't be confused for one moment on this point: The marriage is unhealthy for you. BUT your approach to date has been a cluster fvck. 

For example, as the primary breadwinner you have the high ground. She also sounds like a needy partner. So as the overall stronger partner, why would you do something that is typically the only move of the weak partner: threaten divorce

I think her issue is mostly a lack of respect. 







rich84 said:


> MEM,
> Can you elaborate on the toxicity of saturation in combo with divorce talk?
> 
> I have been trying to be all in, which includes continuing to try to meet her needs and giving her an opportunity to meet mine. However, if enough time passes and she ignores mine I get resentful and bring up the sex issue. It came up indirectly last night as I described because it was the white elephant in the room. I really didn't want to get into it. Whenever we talk now it comes to a point at the notion that we are headed towards divorce if this keeps being a problem for us.
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

That's not really the issue because none of those 'issues' get in between her and the stuff she WANTS to do: 
- spend time together
- have a LOT of physical contact 
- etc

The only things that 'life' seems to prevent her from doing - are things she doesn't much want to do.

And the big big one there is: please Rich and avoid displeasing Rich

Making me happy makes M2 happy. It just does. And vice versa. 

All that said - maybe your initiation is off. And maybe your general dynamic is off. Too accommodating, too serious. 

Was women's soccer really your first choice of what to watch? 

I say: I want to watch Prometheus. Almost certainly means M2 and I end up watching different stuff in different rooms. If M2 wants to connect with me, that's always an option. 

I'm not watching what I don't want in the hope that my selfish wife might 'let' me have sex with her. 

But M2 doesn't act like R2. Not because I'd be angry, but because I'd slowly deprioritize her. 




rich84 said:


> I do think she has a drive under there, but it's easily squashed. Our reoccurring arguments about sex, her insecurities about her body, a demanding child, housework, a high stress nightshift job, etc. all whittle away at it. I believe she loves me. I don't think she's into me sexually quite like I am into her, however.
> 
> Sometimes I can get her very aroused. It's perplexing because we can have great sex and it's obvious she enjoyed herself, and then she can go days upon days and not need it again. So that's why I say she's not into me. But she says she is. I don't know. Sometimes I just want to have sex with her, and my libido isn't even driving me nuts. I just enjoy it with her and being close. She couldn't view sex that way.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Wow, I'm overwhelmed with these responses. Thank you all. I see now how I've made a mess of things, especially the missteps with the R. 

I am a very giving person. I think I default to her preference because I genuinely want to please her. I watched women's soccer to be close to her. She was excited about it and I wanted to be near her. Wasn't all about sex, but I guess I did have a covert contract. I see that ill come from a position of weakness. I have to get a handle on this dynamic.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> Rich: you need to be less available. Less giving. Less concerned with her moods. Fewer covert contracts. You do for your wife what you enjoy doing. You do not do for your wife what you do not enjoy doing. If she starts complaining that don't do enough, tell her that she needs to find a way to help you enjoy the other tasks enough to do them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I definitely struggle with this. My response to her not meeting my needs is to try harder, do more. Running this script without being cold or angry is a challenge. Before our initial blowup I had distanced myself. She wasn't meeting my needs on any level. I watched what I wanted on TV, did pretty much what I wanted. I wasn't angry or in turmoil because I wasn't giving her my all. Her response was to further distance herself. I eventually grew tired of that mediocrity and that's when I sat her down.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not usually so serious. This has shaken the levity from me, but I do see how it is needed. 

I came home last night in a pissed off mood. I wasn't really over Sunday night. She met me at the door ready to go. Confused the hell out of me but I'm going to work with a hickey today.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

She told me today that she is pregnant. She found out this morning. There was hysterical bonding during the last month in which we weren't using protection. We have gone back and forth with her wanting more kids since last year even. We had decided to put it on hold while we work on things. I am scared about us keeping focused on each other, but also excited and hopeful too. Quite a surprise today.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Duh, good luck with that.


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## Laila8 (Apr 24, 2013)

Oh boy.

Well she got what she wanted. I fear she will definitely prioritize a healthy sex life with you at the bottom of her list now.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Yes quite a surprise


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Laila8 said:


> Oh boy.
> 
> 
> 
> Well she got what she wanted. I fear she will definitely prioritize a healthy sex life with you at the bottom of her list now.



Yes, she did. I hope that is not the case. She knows that it is very important to me. I am learning some skills to improve our situation thanks to you all. I guess we will see how it shakes out. There's some major changes coming our way, that's for sure. Can't see her staying on nightshift now, we shall see.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Bugged said:


> congratulations!!Hope it's a girl >



Thanks, Bugged. I knew you would be positive about this as someone who maybe places sex down a little farther on the scale of importance in a relationship. Priorities will have to shift some, won't they?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Rich, I think it's great. It would be nice if you had a little better relationship but it is what it is. 

I'll share this story with you: my dad told me he hadn't really wanted kids. He wanted my mom to get a job, to which her answer was to get pregnant. My dad was still of the mindset of BC being on the woman so that's on him. My mom actually told him that if she had to work she didn't need to be married. Their relationship was terrible, yet somehow we all endured.

I don't think their sex life was that great, both were very damaged people. But both of my sisters were her answer to him wanting her to get a job. He told me that after the third kid he didn't sleep with her anymore. 

Eventually they divorced, but he and I were very tight. My youngest sister, who's a CNA, helped take care of him while he battled cancer. I took care of all of his business so he had nothing to worry about and talked to him on the phone daily. He told me he didn't know how people faced battles like that without family. And guess who held his hand and told him to move on when it was time? Yours truly.

And he even developed a friendship of sorts with my mom.

So the kids he didn't really want were there for him later on. Not that you don't want your kid, just wanted to share.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> Rich, I think it's great. It would be nice if you had a little better relationship but it is what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing your story. It's both sad and touching. 

I've wanted another kid but I just wanted a healthy relationship first. There's no reason we can't have both. Yes it will be harder, but we both know what the alternative is and we are committed to each other. I've not been the most fun person to live with for the past few months and yet my wife has been positive, pushed herself outside of her comfort zone, and worked to better our sex life and intimacy in response to my escalations. 

I may have let my history of frustration cloud the progress that we've made and dredged up old feelings in knee jerk responses to very short periods without sex. I read some stories on here and I really have it made. We've had sex 3 out of the last 4 days. She works all weekend and I believe she was trying to front load the week knowing that she would be gone. Would she have even thought to do that before? Nope.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Congratulations. Every child is a blessing.

Still, you know that the day the child is born the sex will stop. Do not come here in 15 months and complain "it is 6 months since the child was born and we have not had sex". Your wife got what she wanted. She is rewarding you for that. When the baby arrives you will return to the back burner where she believes you belong.

I hope and pray that in time I am proved wrong. If I am not, you have no one to complain to except yourself. You had unprotected sex. You know what follows. You got what is to be expected. You cannot reasonably complain when the natural consequences of your actions come to pass.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> Congratulations. Every child is a blessing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for saying I am unwelcome here because I might reap what I sowed. 😏 I would not want to bother you with my problems having so clearly brought them upon myself. I am in awe of your clarity that has absolved you of all potential marital strife. 

You are right. This is not optimal for the issues that we have been struggling with, I am well aware. Had I been stronger, I might have been less malleable and asserted my will. I did, finally, too late. But did I complain and irritate you?

So, are you saying I should leave now since the sex will dry up when the baby is born? What exactly is your contribution except painting a negative picture from your crystal ball?

I've owned up to and learned from a fair amount of things from those willing to contribute harsh but constructive criticism. Your post was not of that vein.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Rich, read my thread. I have been in a basically sexless marriage for 23 years. I am projecting my experience onto you.

I do not take control of my life. I allow life to happen to me. And I am the worse off for it. I was hoping you would learn from my mistakes, but no such luck.

The point of my post was to focus you on the cause and effect relationship. If you allow yourself to be weak and to give in to short term desires then you can't bloody well complain when the natural consequences of your choices come home to roost.

This applies across the board. If you don't want your boss to mess with you, do not tolerate being messed with. If you don't want your wife to end up pregnant, don't have unprotected sex. If she complains that she doesn't like sex with condoms, then refuse to have sex. If you can't bear to go without sex, then don't complain when unprotected sex results in pregnancy.

A devious guy would have had a vasectomy without telling his wife and then allowed her to have lots of sex with him in the hopes of getting pregnant. Would likely have ended ugly but you would have had several years of hot sex with your wife (and the mother of your children) before she caught on. You had too much integrity for that. A less devious guy would have divorced his wife and gone looking for someone who wanted to have sex for the pleasure rather than the conception. You had too much fear to do that.

I wish you and your wife and your family well. I hope the pregnancy and the delivery go easily for your wife. I hope the baby arrives healthy. I hope you all are happier a year from now than you are today.

But if you ask me to back down from saying "dude, what were you thinking, you have just signed away your sex life for the next few years" then no, I can't do that for you.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> Rich, read my thread. I have been in a basically sexless marriage for 23 years. I am projecting my experience onto you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I read your thread to get your perspective. I "got" it. I don't respect it. Your dismal situation has left you with a poisonously negative bias. I hope you offer more to others on TAM. 

If you feel that you must say "I told you so," consider your mission accomplished.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,
R2 now has twice the motivation to make the marriage work. 

Some gentle suggestions:
- You need to be happy with you 
- If you are happy with yourself - and have faith in yourself, you may find R2.lacking, but that will be about her, not you.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> R2 now has twice the motivation to make the marriage work.
> 
> Some gentle suggestions:
> ...



Thanks, MEM. I appreciate your feedback. I am going to work to internalize it, be less codependent/weak, and bring about a constructive change in our relationship dynamics.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,
Best way to deal with the emotion is to embrace it - don't deny it. 

So by day N (maybe N = 4 to 5 days for you) you are starting to get 'tense'. Don't deny it. Don't try to hide it. 

USE IT. A playful edge, a bit rougher a bit sharper. Not mean. Not even aggressive. Just - more - edge. 

More you doing what you want. Not in anger, just determination. 

It's also ok - when R2 complains in a needy way - to smile and say: You can't be selfish AND needy at the same time. I matter too. And then carry on with your agenda. 

Any kind of star fish scenario - you stop and say: Seems like this isn't working for you. And wait for either a sincere effort or you stop, go find the nearest bathroom and take care of yourself. 




rich84 said:


> Thanks, MEM. I appreciate your feedback. I am going to work to internalize it, be less codependent/weak, and bring about a constructive change in our relationship dynamics.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> Best way to deal with the emotion is to embrace it - don't deny it.
> 
> ...



Awesome MEM. There really should be a handbook with this stuff for men. I've certainly been running the wrong plays.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Rich, from a woman's point of view please make sure you're giving credit where it's due. If your wife initiates and you're pouting two days later she may come to the conclusion that it's not worth the effort because it's never enough. You've got to find a happy medium. 

Let her know how great it was, then initiate yourself in a few days. If she says no let it go, slap her a$$ and tell her you'll take a raincheck. Then be your happy self and take care of yourself. Then wait a few days and try again, and if she's willing to do it for you give it a shot. Tell her you'd love it if she O'd but if she can't it's ok. Change the dynamic. 

I know for me my hb's mood greatly and it becomes clear how much when he's pissy. A happy guy sure of himself is sexy, if that can't her going pouting certainly won't help. 

You guys can do it, I know you can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

You're like the natural athlete who is learning a new sport. All the 'core' stuff is there. This is simply a matter of developing a highly specialized skill set.

If you let her - R2 - WILL - MAKE - YOU - STRONGER

M2 did so for me. 

Focusing on Strength - which is solely about you - is radically different than focusing on power. Power is only relevant in the context of another person or group of people. 

This does not mean you must be a doormat. Quite the contrary. It does mean that you will see R2's undesirable behaviors in a totally different light. Not so much in how they impact you. Much more so in how they impact HER. 

And since she has some commonality with M2, a phrase you might find useful when she is getting anxious and disruptive about anything you do without her. Said with a smile and a light tone. 

True partnership is a beautiful thing. Very different than ownership. 

---------





rich84 said:


> Awesome MEM. There really should be a handbook with this stuff for men. I've certainly been running the wrong plays.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

In a perfect world:

Your partners positive behaviors energize and happify you.

And their undesirable behaviors have minimal impact. 

Huge difference between saying: "I don't like it when XYZ happens, and believe you don't like having it done to you" 

In a calm, relaxed manner vs a tense or angry manner. 




lifeistooshort said:


> Rich, from a woman's point of view please make sure you're giving credit where it's due. If your wife initiates and you're pouting two days later she may come to the conclusion that it's not worth the effort because it's never enough. You've got to find a happy medium.
> 
> Let her know how great it was, then initiate yourself in a few days. If she says no let it go, slap her a$$ and tell her you'll take a raincheck. Then be your happy self and take care of yourself. Then wait a few days and try again, and if she's willing to do it for you give it a shot. Tell her you'd love it if she O'd but if she can't it's ok. Change the dynamic.
> 
> ...


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM and lifeistooshort, this is really clicking with me. Why did this not come more naturally versus resentment and anger? I can already apply this logic in theory and see that it is more positive, productive, healthy, and kind. I believe we can do it too. I believe that this is more in line with how I want to be. I feel very fortunate to have stumbled upon such helpful strangers on the Internet. Thank you!


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> Rich, from a woman's point of view please make sure you're giving credit where it's due. If your wife initiates and you're pouting two days later she may come to the conclusion that it's not worth the effort because it's never enough. You've got to find a happy medium.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think I was falsely giving her the impression that it wasn't enough. My fear of losing ground made me see a few days without as a regression of progress. The last week has been different. I am going to cut out the negative reactions. You're right, that's not sexy. 

We've had big news and a really good week. I can tell she's waiting to see if I'm going to pout about things. I'll show her this better version. I know she'll love it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,
You are going to drive he upward spiral. 

And the first step in that process is to denuclearize your arsenal. No matter what happens, the nuclear option is simply no longer available until the babies first birthday. 

She's pregnant - it's a type of vulnerability we can't understand. That's why we remove that option during this time period. 

Does not mean you doormat. Not at all. Stay calm, concise, constructive and conventional e.g.
- It's important to me that ....
- I don't like it when this happens 
- I don't believe 'that' is helping us create the type marriage we both want. 

Even if she provokes you with: are you going to divorce me if ....?

Your response needs to be a firm: NO. I'm just telling you what's important to me....




rich84 said:


> I think I was falsely giving her the impression that it wasn't enough. My fear of losing ground made me see a few days without as a regression of progress. The last week has been different. I am going to cut out the negative reactions. You're right, that's not sexy.
> 
> We've had big news and a really good week. I can tell she's waiting to see if I'm going to pout about things. I'll show her this better version. I know she'll love it.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> You are going to drive he upward spiral.
> 
> ...



I don't know why, but there is a part of me that was hanging on to that nuclear option. Even though that's not what I wanted or was shooting for. Even though I was never "done." Maybe because I had to embrace it as a real possibility considering the magnitude of the **** storm I blew in or as a fantasy of a life with less frustration. It took me a good long while to burn through the fear of what the nuclear option meant in realistic terms. I think in some ways that fear is gone, like overcoming one's fear of heights. 

No matter. You're right. It's off he table. Which might just be a good thing, because there's no use getting yourself worked up to a nuclear froth if you don't have the launch codes. 

No more door mat though. No more compromise to the point of resentment. No more burying my frustrations in order to keep the peace. No more pouting or covert contracts. No more extended high drama talks about this issue. No more knee jerk reactions to her behaviors. No more being critically affected by what she does or doesn't do. No more blatant weakness on my part.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Even if she provokes you with: are you going to divorce me if ....?
> 
> Your response needs to be a firm: NO. I'm just telling you what's important to me....


And if that is a lie? Not now, we'll see how I feel in July of 2017...


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

I have been working on things since last month. My MAP so to speak. Some successes, mostly in my ability to deal with the situation, feel positive about what I'm doing, and feel like I have some control over my own happiness and outcomes. 

Upped my weights and cut more lbs. I'm trying to be physically as good as I can be. If I can't attract her physically, I at least would like the confidence from knowing that others do find me attractive. Getting a lot more attention from other women, which feels great (I know, I know, caution). This is probably me just being more outgoing and confident. Just have to not get frustrated when it doesn't translate to the same reaction from R2. She has complimented me several times, but that doesn't mean a lot to me in the absence of action. 

Doing my own thing more and being independent of her. She has thrown a few BF's at my not giving her undivided attention. Like yesterday she was watching some god awful reality TV marathon. I think she would have liked me to sit near her like a nice couch ornament all day. Nope, can't do it. I ran, lifted, hung out with our daughter, went to the store, etc. As a result she was cold, but I'm not going to pander to that by asking her what's wrong, what's wrong - only to have her ignore me. I know what's wrong. I'm not holding her hand and snuggled up to her all day. She's welcome to join me at any time. I don't feel any fear at her being upset with me anymore. It doesn't affect me. 

Did the whole outcome independence thing fairly well this month. "Your loss" was uttered several times. I haven't backed off on initiating, but I have lightened the mood considerably. She keeps telling me that I'm coping well with her being sick and sexually unavailable. I just agree. Maybe I'll get to the point where I believe myself when I act like it doesn't bother me, but I'll have to settle for the impact on her for now. 

She has had nausea from the pregnancy nearly around the clock. Its getting better, somewhat. It's a great excuse for whatever she doesn't feel like doing. However, I do think she legit doesn't feel well a lot of the time, and she is tired and irritated at being sick constantly. Saturday night we had a date night and I initiated (no soft initiations anymore) and she just said that its been a long day. Not that she felt bad or was tired or anything. Just seemed that she thought it was too much work. Totally not up to see if her responsive desire would kick in. That was frustrating. I didn't feel like my needs rated very high and it made me feel like our date night was less special because it didn't make her feel that way towards me. I think honestly her needs were met by all the closeness of the day. I didn't say anything really, so I could have handled it better. I keep working on it. 
The next day we had more opportunity (alone time), but she stayed in bed all morning. I went and did my own thing. Not waiting around anymore to see if my wife might be up for things. Her loss, really. Before I would have stuck around and covertly held out hope. Nah, not worth it. If she wanted to make me a priority she would have gotten up before 1pm. 

We've had sex despite all this about 1-2 times per week and the quality is good. But it is on her terms, basically. Can't recall a time recently when I initiated that I wasn't shot down. She just makes her intentions known and expects me to be ready (I always am, but that's besides the point). I gave her oral one night because she was actually horny. She's into me doing this now a lot. After she came she offered me no reciprocity. I was like, really? I wouldn't mind one way at all if it was ever reciprocated or if frequency was higher. So I said, my turn. Nope, she's "gaggy." She apparently couldn't use her imagination and figure out another way to satisfy me. 

We've not argued at all during the last month, which is great. It's made things much more tolerable and I don't feel like I'm out of control anymore. However, my resentment creeps back in from time to time and it makes it hard to maintain playful chemistry and meet her needs. I have to be the best version of myself at all times in the hopes of helping the problem but she gets to do whatever she feels like. Nothing about it is fair or equitable, which smacks in the face of what I was raised to believe marriage was about. 

Lately if she snaps at me about something I will call her out on it. "Hey, I get that you're upset, but you're not going to talk to me like that. If you want to talk about it later when you can treat me with respect, I'll be here." Or something like that. Trying not to fail these **** tests. I expected chilly evenings, but she actually responds well to this. Even *gasp* apologizes!

Being more dominant. Everything from picking places to eat to having a plan for the day to initiating sex. Some of it goes against my nature, but I think she may like it. She certainly isn't complaining about it. 

That's it for now. I keep trying.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

anonmd said:


> And if that is a lie? Not now, we'll see how I feel in July of 2017...



I didn't respond to this for forever because I wasn't sure what I would say. 

Here's what I think I would say after a lot of reflection and in light of our current situation:

"No, I'm not thinking about divorce. I'm trying to focus on us and our family. But you know that a bad sex life is a deal breaker for me. You know that divorce is always an option for couples that don't attempt to care for one another."

I'm sure there's a better way to put it. But to simply say no seems wrong. And to leave a threat with a timeframe is counterproductive considering I am working towards strengthening our relationship. This approach would just be reinforcing my boundary and letting her know that I won't tolerate a sexless marriage.


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## Mike6211 (Jan 18, 2013)

rich84 said:


> I didn't respond to this for forever because I wasn't sure what I would say.
> 
> Here's what I think I would say after a lot of reflection and in light of our current situation:
> 
> ...


I wouldn't use the D- word at all in your response.

In fact, I'd take a leaf out of the politician's book. Excerpt from the transcript of an episode of the British sitcom "Yes Minister" in which the politician says - from 18:30 at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmPdEr0qTBk


If this question should ever arise again,
this is how you deal with questions.

If you have nothing to say, say nothing.

Better still, have something to say and say it,
no matter what they ask.

Pay no attention to the question.
Just make your own statement.

If they ask the question again, you say,
"That's not the question"

or "I think the real question is..." and then
you make another statement of your own.


W's questioning you, using the D- word, is a sh!t test IMHO to see if you take the bait. Just because you're asked a question doesn't mean you have to answer it ("Does my bum look big in this?").


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## Ihateusernames (Oct 8, 2015)

So I've just spent several hours on TAM to get some insight into people with HD and kinks. Been married for nearly 20 years to a great guy who has (compared to me) a very high drive and also really gets into bdsm. No, I didn't quite understand just what that meant when we got married. 
Reading through these posts has been enlightening. 

I thought that I would give some insight from the perspective of a person with a radically lower drive and is not into anything kinky. 

One of the things I keep seeing are basically bits of advice on how to get ld 'to understand the needs of the hd'. Quite frankly, from my pov, what I keep reading are pieces of advice to manipulate the ld person to think they're the problem and need to put out more. At leats, as I said, from my Perspective. 

Now, think about this> 
If ***I'M*** seeing it like this, do you really think your wife, OP, isn't maybe feeling the same way? Manipulated?

One consistent theme I'm getting from you is you want her to essentially want to be more intimate with you. 

Often, throughout this discussion, I found myself wanting to find you and throw my laptop at your head  Why? 

Well, she sounds a lot like me. She IS doing what you want her to do - technically. You ask her to be more 'open minded' (in so many words, the oral sex for instance) and so she lets you. You find that she is pleasured by this. In your head it's "ok, my turn." Wait. What? This seems perfectly reasonable to you (and others). In her head it's "I JUST DID WHAT YOU ASKED ME TO DO!!!" She opened up a little, and for her it's done. Because she doesn't see this as a way to connect. She sees this as a way to make you happy. Why aren't you happy dammit?  I remember when my husband finally got me to let him do this on me. I was repulsed. But HE WANTED TO. Okay, fine. Yes, it's plesaurable, but that doesn't outweigh my "ewww" factor. I think in his head (and men like him) Pleasure = well done. Pleasure also = connection.

Nope. Not for a lot of women. :grin2:

Pleasure does not equal connection. You can make her climax twenty times, that doesn't mean she feels connected to you. Pleasure is pleasure. Connection is connection. 

She sounds like an eternal people pleaser. This means for you:
She wants to know what to do to make you happy. Give her instructions. Wait? You can't? Why? Because you're not a robot. You're a human. But she's Programmed to please you. And when she thinks she has the instructions figured out and knows how to make you Happy, she's good to go. The stress of the monkey wrenches that get thrown into the day to day life of a relationship are stressing her out. Then she has to figure it out again. This could trigger depression episodes, and that kills libido. 

When things don't go your way and you get upset, again, that triggers depression. Because she's thinking in her head, wait, what did I do wrong now? She doesn't feel safe. How do you get intimate sexually with a person you don't feel safe with? She really wants to make you happy. 

She gets told to do these things. She does them. That should fix things. It does, for a while. But keeping it up is exhausting mentally. When a women says "she's tired" it's not physical exhuastion, it's emotional. When an empathic person gives - they give 110%. When an empathic person receives they receive 200%. They overload. She sounds empathic. Which btw I was not convinced of the whole empathic thing for years. I just thought I was crazy until I finally started to see how I was interpreting other people's feelings. So, you get into 'ragey hormonal mode' and she's sitting there getting defensive, just needing to hide. At that point, she probably wants to shut down from her own emotions too. Then you want sex to bring you closer together and she's likely thinking 'are you fing kidding me?' 

Also about connecting....

She HAS connected with you. You've said it yourself. A number of you have seen it. She's NOT HAPPY. THERE. That's your connection. Just because it's a sad one, or dark one, doesn't mean you haven't connected. You have felt the frigidity. That's your connection. 

Emotionally connecting with someone means that you get to feel and understand the good, the bad, the ugly. The really, really dark ugly. And when you sense that she is not enjoying sex, there's a reason. (the posts re starfish sex, omg, I'm dying over here, lol)

You are Not Going To Get Her To Want What You Want by manipulating her into doing the things you want her to do by filling her 'looooove bank'. You get her to want to be intimate with you by giving her a reason to trust you. And when you get all ragey when you don't get what you want, guess what? She loses trust in you, and herself. 

a) She trusted that if she made you happy, you'd be happy. Why aren't you happy? You're angry again.
b) She trusted herself to trust you, and now you're angry again. 

You now have created a dry spell.

Sooooo you need to either let her go and explain in depth, that she is not at fault. You are not at fault. Sometimes marriages simply are because the two people are not compatible. However, this doesn't fix YOU. 

YES YOU. 

a) Women are not magic lamps. You don't rub us and we shine, lmao. 
b) Women are not banks. You don't fill in a certain amount and ask to make a withdrawal and get it. (Seriously, WHO came up with that? Dr. Phil????) Women are human. And we have emotional needs that ebb and flow. As women age, so do our bodies and hormones. IF she's empathic, then she is likely receiving way too much energy from you and has to deal with the energy from you, herself, her kid. And then you get all whiny and crap and wonder why she's not turned on. Let me tell you. When my husband pulls this crap, I turn off. And i'm not turning on for a week or two not matter how much he puts in this 'bank'. Why? BECAUSE I'M NOT A FREAKING BANK. LOL I'm a person. Neither is your wife. 
c) You cannot control her. Period. Let that s**t go. You sound like you're getting that through your head, but that's a big one. All of us have some sort of control issues. You cannot make her want you. You cannot make her desire you. You cannot make her do anything she doesn't want to do without force or manipulation. And so if or when you succeed by either of those operations you have nothing to be proud of. You have successfully molded your wife to your liking. That's not love. If you love HER, you either let her go now, or you start dating your wife again, regain her trust, stop listening to the doofuses on this board telling you how much you are owed to be given sex etc and start loving your wife. I mean really LOVING HER. Therapy is great. But therapists are also human and can have crappy advice. 

Loving a person is not a feeling. It's an action. It means putting someone else's needs above your own continuously. And yes, at some point, it might be that you cannot continue a relationship with her. But from everything you have said, you do not sound like you have been loving her. It sounds like you have been more concerned about not getting more from her sexually. That's not love. That's not connection. That's being horny. And she's not an idiot. So all these times you keep on fillin up your little bank and ask for a withdrawal and get pissy when it doesn't go right, she very likely feels manipulated. Congrats. 

Get off the blinking internet, go love your wife, and get your own help before telling her she needs it. 

Come back in a year after literally putting her first, and focusing on HER, and we'll talk. Til then, you've got work to do.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

You're right. It's all manipulation. Actually the best alternative is to let her go and find someone compatible. That way neither of you have to be bothered doing something you obviously don't want to do.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Ihateusernames said:


> Come back in a year after literally putting her first, and focusing on HER, and we'll talk. Til then, you've got work to do.



Talk about a recipe for resentment. And by the way that never works. Seen it over and over.


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## Ihateusernames (Oct 8, 2015)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Talk about a recipe for resentment. And by the way that never works. Seen it over and over.


Well, Idk who your friends are and what kind of life you have, but I've seen it work - over and over. 

It's his life, but he sounds like a guy who really just wants to get f**ked more. Which, hey, he can do that. But let her go and find someone who is a better match.


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## Ihateusernames (Oct 8, 2015)

And btw, if marriage is a life long deal to a person, and I mean A LIFE LONG DEAL - one year should be no problem. Because let me tell ya, the marriges that really last, and make it through thick and thin - are marriages between people who see that one year as an investment in a lasting relationship. 

And yes - I have literally seen relationships go through very tumultuous times where one person has to focus on making things better before it really gets better. 

Sometimes, just sometimes, marriage is not just kind of hard, but it's tremendously hard. I have no problem when people choose to walk away from a marriage. Sometimes it's just not there. I get that. 

But he's quite literally trying to CHANGE who She IS for HIS satisfaction, disguising it as something that is for both of them. 

I told my husband about this, and he was astounded at the advice and the OP's attitude. We agreed that we made it to 20 years because of a lot of patience, and a lot of love, and alot of NOT making people do what they absolutely do not want to do AND he wouldn't have MARRIED me had he even a hint that there was no way I wouldn't be down with at least some of his stuff.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

Well I have lived it over and over and it doesn't work!

I made my wife and family my top priority for 27 years. It doesn't work. 

I think for your advice to work both people need to follow it. If you applied it to his wife she, is not loving him the way he needs to be loved. For the many years I dated my wife prior to marriage she wanted the physical connection sex brought us as much as I did. She initiated it as much as I did. After kids came they became her number 1 priority not our marriage. Sex no longer brought her the connection it used to. It was now a chore that she could barely get through and made it very obvious.

From what I see in people I know, the guys that put her needs above theirs consistently, are not all that happy with their wives.


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## Ihateusernames (Oct 8, 2015)

The really sad thing about this, that I can see, and that My Husband could see (which I think is why I adore the hell out of him) is.... 

How many here have asked the OP to consider... 


a) How scared is she right now? 
b) Is it actually ethical to essentially say do this or I'm leaving you? (which is essentially telling this person you supposedly love that if you don't f them the right way and when you want it I'm gone) 
c) Have you asked her how she feels when he has a temper tantrum? How freaked out is she? 

I.e. It seems like all the advice this guy is getting is solely focused on HIS needs. Just because she isn't here to defend herself doesn't mean he's in the clear and that her feelings, including her heartbreak at finding out just how unhappy the poor boy is, how scared she might be feeling right now at the thought of losing her husband and family unit, the feeling of having your life pulled out from underneath you, don't matter and how they factor in to the libido he is trying to 'build up' for 'her benefit'. 

The entire situation is so sad, so unbelievably sad. This is why - while venting online has it's purpose - giving advice to people you don't know and you haven't heard BOTH SIDES can be dangerous to the people who don't get to tell their side.


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## Ihateusernames (Oct 8, 2015)

Always Learning said:


> Well I have lived it over and over and it doesn't work!
> 
> I made my wife and family my top priority for 27 years. It doesn't work.
> 
> ...



But you have no clue what she is actually doing or thinking or saying. You have one side from a guy who has something to gain.


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## Ihateusernames (Oct 8, 2015)

And also I think it's incredibly gross when a guy can get it up with any woman he pretty much manipulated to sc*w him.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

You seem to have missed all the suggestions that told him to be a better man, be the man she fell in love with, be the man that she wants to screw. There is a lot of advice to him that did not include manipulating her.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Ihateusernames said:


> The really sad thing about this, that I can see, and that My Husband could see (which I think is why I adore the hell out of him) is....
> 
> How many here have asked the OP to consider...
> 
> ...


This is mostly right. 

The part that isn't correct is your belittling his need for sexual fulfillment.


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## Ihateusernames (Oct 8, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> This is mostly right.
> 
> The part that isn't correct is your belittling his need for sexual fulfillment.


Okay, you're not wrong. I am not trying to belittle his need for sexual fulfillment. However, and this comes from the persepctive of a wife who has a husband with a really hd and pretty damned kinky at that, love means setting those needs aside for the better of the relationship and the person you love, Sometimes for a heck of a lot longer than you think you can manage. 

I apologize to *him* for doing so (the op). The concept being conveyed is that he cannot control his desire and so needs to resort to essentially threatening to leave her, and also temper tantrums. Those are maniuplative techniques used to get what you want. 

This is why so many women are talking about 'rape culture'. And while I really do think that term and idea can be over used and lose efficacy, it's based on the theory that "men just have to have it and if you're not going to give put out, shame on you" and also as for him being a better guy. That only works if she's see that for a long term, not a week or two. That's just buttering her up. And she's not a dolt, she very likely can see exactly that happening.

(And yes, I have seen a number of members commenting as to his issues, I would assume they would realize I'm not referring to them). 


Again, I do apologize to the op for belittling you.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

In your view, is he the only one that has to set aside his needs?


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## Ihateusernames (Oct 8, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> In your view, is he the only one that has to set aside his needs?



Well that's the problem with marriage (so to speak). 

Sometimes, yes, that has to happen. However - we really don't understand if she has needs that she has been setting aside, sacrificing. 

When a person is an eternal people pleaser, a lot of times they might not even be able to recognize what their emotional or physical (sexual, intimate) needs are. And in the process are sacrificing them. 

Women, I think, are vulnerable to this because of the way that we have been raised to be 'good little wives'. Sometimes it happens even without a real overt doctrine (read: church settings...). 


When a couple is in that situation, yeah, if he wants to not just make his marriage work, but when he wants to do what is in her best interests (or I'm sure sometimes vice versa) he might need to do a lot of sacrificing in one area while they figure stuff out. 

My advice would be to any couple trying to work through things is focus on intimacy. Not sex. 

The problem is that the OP is very frustrated (and I **do** get that) and is seeing this short term wise. Like if he does xxx he should be able to request xxx. That's why that whole love bank thing irritates me. My husband put it best last night when we talked about this when he said "that's acting like 'ok, I gave this and this and this, now I want a bj." (then he rolled his eyes) 

Relationships aren't like that. 

I'm not sure if that's helpful. 

I guess, we only read about how he feels he's doing the giving, we're not able to read about how much she feels like she is giving or sacrificing. Without knowing that, this is a very one sided thing.

(Is that helpful?)


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Ihateusernames said:


> Well that's the problem with marriage (so to speak).
> 
> Sometimes, yes, that has to happen. However - we really don't understand if she has needs that she has been setting aside, sacrificing.
> 
> ...


The problem with people pleasers is they frequently please others in the way that they themselves like to be pleased. Then they get frustrated because their efforts don't bear fruit. Its called a covert contract.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> In your view, is he the only one that has to set aside his needs?


Ihateusernames:

Did you really answer this question?

I understand what your husband may expect of you may make you uncomfortable. How would you feel if he took that approach with your needs? Simply put, if it made him uncomfortable, he could refuse to do that. Would that be okay?


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## Ihateusernames (Oct 8, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> The problem with people pleasers is they frequently please others in the way that they themselves like to be pleased. Then they get frustrated because their efforts don't bear fruit. Its called a covert contract.


Again - though - we're going off of only his version of events. And I'm not trying to say that the OP is being deliberately dishonest, but rather that his perspective on this doesn't lend much to us understanding HER which is what is necessary in order for any real advice that would be useful to be given.


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## Ihateusernames (Oct 8, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Ihateusernames:
> 
> Did you really answer this question?
> 
> I understand what your husband may expect of you may make you uncomfortable. How would you feel if he took that approach with your needs? Simply put, if it made him uncomfortable, he could refuse to do that. Would that be okay?



Thus far we have had situations come up where yes, he has refused things that make him feel uncomfortable (I think like one thing, and at the time it was a bigger deal). And while I did not like it, I understood that, and we moved on. 

There have been smaller things we don't see eye to eye on, but in fairness to the discussion, I don't think that eating at a dinner table quite compares to sex  
Editing to say: Yes, I have considered these smaller needs at various times, but due to certain extenuating circumstances in our family dynamics, I could understand setting that aside.


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## Ihateusernames (Oct 8, 2015)

I really need to check out for the day as much as I want to keep checking in. 

Trying to sew a $*&@#_#$(*)_#@ costume for my 15 year old sans pattern with a thread that keeps coming OUT OF THE needle is getting me all twitchy. And then there's that whole issue of taking care of the actual family, cleaning up etc etc etc. 

So I will really try to check back in later.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Ihateusernames said:


> So I've just spent several hours on TAM to get some insight into people with HD and kinks. Been married for nearly 20 years to a great guy who has (compared to me) a very high drive and also really gets into bdsm. No, I didn't quite understand just what that meant when we got married.
> Reading through these posts has been enlightening.
> 
> I thought that I would give some insight from the perspective of a person with a radically lower drive and is not into anything kinky.
> ...



Ihateusernames,

You have a unique perspective here on TAM. In fact, not many LD's stick around and share their perspective for long because of all the "doofuses," people I most certainly identify with due to shared experiences. 

That said, I think you got some things right and other things you seem to be projecting yourself onto my wife. We all do this - it's our nature to apply our unique biases to all problems we encounter. What I'm interested in is critically thinking myself into a more meaningful and satisfying marriage. 

You're on point about fits and whininess. It's unattractive, and so I've stopped that. Also, I do believe she does not feel as much connection through sex as I do. But maybe not zero as you describe. I think that's where our congruence ends. 

As for loving her unconditionally, really pouring my heart into her, making her feel utter comfort, satisfaction, and security - I did this. She is not the people pleaser. I was. I had a few basic needs to make my cup runneth over. Fock me regularly and engage in the bedroom. keep your own sh!t tidy. And maybe throw in some adoration. In exchange, I solemnly swear to craw through glass for you. You see, pretty much all love is conditional on the other person doing their part to make you feel a certain way, and each person defines those important feelings for them self. The reciprocal BJ point was this: you showing me sexual attention in a mirroring way makes me feel loved. I get that I will need to show her in additional ways, most likely non-sexual, for her to feel that love also. But I am demonstrating my love for her in a way that I feel best equipped to show it. And I'm also demonstrating how I can best appreciate it from her. When I give my gifts of love and receive none in return in my love language, I feel unloved. Similarly, if she gave me lots of nonsexual affection and I did not reciprocate, she would likely feel unloved. Bridging that gap is love to me. 

For years I gave a lot more than I took. The love bank is real (read his needs her needs), and mine was depleted. The ultimatum was not grand manipulation. It was a very courteous warning shot that I was done and very nearly ready to file. Whether out of fear or recognition of her part in the situation, she leapt into action. The other tactics are more about finding happiness from within and not being so damn dependent on her for my happiness. They're about maximizing my personality, my physical attractiveness, charisma, etc. and removing those turn off barriers like indecisiveness, pouting, whining, passivity. Manning up and taking control of my own destiny. Being an independent, interesting person. Picking myself up off the ground in front of the door and standing up to her about what I need out of the relationship in order to ward off resentment. 

The alternative model you describe - keep giving and giving and maybe one day she'll come around - has failed miserably for myself and so many others here on TAM. It is the definition of insanity and a recipe for resentment. You cannot nice people into change. 

Change doesn't typically happen during times of comfort and security. People cling to these things like lifelines. No, change requires discomfort. Energizing, but not quite crippling discomfort, is the catalyst for the most dramatic and successful changes. And I needed dramatic change to stay committed over the long haul. Does this mean I don't love my wife? Absolutely not. Does this mean that any change she makes with regard to our marriage is done from a point of fear? I think not. Does that make my efforts to meet her needs and change my behavior out of fear? I don't think so. 

She has the option at any time to say no and us go our separate, amicable ways. She doesn't want that. She wants at least on some level to do what is necessary to stay married to me. And I want to do those things too. And that to me is love. Two people working to please the other to the best of their abilities. It's when one side feels that the other is not working towards that goal that a marriage breaks down. 

Is me holding her accountable to keeping up her end coercion? Is that manipulation? Or is communication of one's needs the best choice to the alternatives of leave or cheat? 

You self describe as an empathetic people pleaser. I don't see it that way. Empathy is being able to look beyond your own preconceptions, beliefs, biases, and feelings, and appreciate the feelings of others without diminishing them. The way you describe your relationship with your husband... The way you describe my relationship and the advice of others... Not so much.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Ihateusernames said:


> And btw, if marriage is a life long deal to a person, and I mean A LIFE LONG DEAL - one year should be no problem. Because let me tell ya, the marriges that really last, and make it through thick and thin - are marriages between people who see that one year as an investment in a lasting relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Before marriage, and even after marriage but before kids, she attacked me sexually, constantly. She definitely showed me love and received love through sex. It was in her comfort zone, but it was definitely free flowing and giving. I really think it was not horniness as much as it was her desire to be as close to me as possible. Was that not her as much as she is the way she is now? If those two opposing ends of the bell curve exist in one person, am I really attempting to change her at her core?

It sounds like you and your husband have a solid grasp and agreement on the state of your relationship. You set the terms and he agrees with them or bust.  Just kidding. I agree, you have to agree to work on things together even when it's really hard in order to make it work over the long haul. Despite making some classic mistakes, I have earnestly tried to put her first for years. I've made grand gestures and received absolutely nothing in return. I've written love letters, flowery texts, brought home flowers, given her beaks to do as she pleases and done more than any man I know around the house. I'm a good provider and a loving father. I'm fit and healthy and other women take notice of me. None of it has been reciprocated in any way closely resembling my effort. The only thing that has made her take note, and I did this out of reaching a breaking point, was to destabilize. I didn't do it to MAKE her change. I gave her the option to change before I finally called the thing. It's always her decision to invest in he relationship or not. People don't make people do things they don't want to do over time. They eventually show you their true intentions.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Ihateusernames said:


> The really sad thing about this, that I can see, and that My Husband could see (which I think is why I adore the hell out of him) is....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A. Not scared in that she's stressed. She is happy and satisfied and looking forward to our coming child. She is aware of the situation, and the consequences of her actions or inaction. She is aware of my needs to the point that she acknowledges them when she is unable or does not intend to meet them. 
B. Yes. That is standing up for yourself. If she beat me physically, would it not be ethical to say stop or I'm leaving?
C. I already know. Turned off. Resentful as if all I'm interested in is her body. Disgusted at my weakness and he inability to keep control of myself. So I recognized that with TAM helpers and stopped. 

The reason they have focused on my needs is that I'm the one with the problem. Her needs are met, she admits this. I'm the one coming on here for solutions, not her. If she came on here asking what to do about her insanely HD husband they would also give her advice to reach some marital compromise. 

The situation was sad. And dire. That's why I sought help.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Ihateusernames said:


> But you have no clue what she is actually doing or thinking or saying. You have one side from a guy who has something to gain.



Yep. Again, I'm the one who sought help.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Ihateusernames said:


> And also I think it's incredibly gross when a guy can get it up with any woman he pretty much manipulated to sc*w him.



That's every single man ever before he "loves" her. This is a very limited view of sexual attraction and a sexist view of sexual relationships. Just saying.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

I think IC would help you. Your need for your wife's approval is stronger than you realize. A lot stronger.

And yes, it can be framed as a need for approval, or a need to avoid disapproval. Say it however you want, it is the reason she is pregnant now. 




rich84 said:


> That's every single man ever before he "loves" her. This is a very limited view of sexual attraction and a sexist view of sexual relationships. Just saying.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I acknowledge that it was very strong, but I honestly believed I was making some significant progress with that. Something about my recent posts hinted otherwise? I am learning and I would not have made that same mistake now. I agree I was a mess and I let it happen by not strongly exerting my will. 

Things were very fragile at that point and hard lines meant real jeopardy in terms of our relationship. I think it was less about approval/avoidance of disapproval and more about marital survival. We both drew lines in the sand on separate issues. It was scary times and I wasn't prepared to push it for fear of it breaking. I did finally exert myself and do it - we decided on a vasectomy at great emotional cost to her. It was a week later that we found out she was pregnant. 

However, things are quite different now and continue to change. I do not have a bleak outlook. I feel some control over things, especially my wellbeing not being tied to whether we are or are not intimate. And I've made changes within myself that resonate with her and leave me more satisfied. 

Twice recently she apologized in tears out of the blue for hurting me and for not being there for me like I wanted. She followed that up with saying that I am a great husband and she feels lucky to have me. Our sex life has a pulse again.

I don't know. Maybe it would help to see someone. I've always tried to dig myself out of holes, so I'm resistant.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,
Let me frame this a different way. I don't believe M2 has ever changed an outcome with me by threatening divorce. 

That doesn't mean I am immune to such threats, I'm not. They actually feel quite bad. 

But if there is one thing I fear more than a divorce, it's a transactional marriage. It might seem like a foolish thing, but it's true. 

This is some hard wired thing that just IS. 

Now and then M2 offers - a 'blackout blowjob' in exchange for some difficult act of service or other. The term blackout refers to what happens after the rapture. 

I don't believe I've ever declined that type request. But for certain I've never collected payment, despite knowing M2 would certainly make good on it if asked. 

The only reason I'm telling you that is in the hope you will believe what I say next. I've never planned or executed a date, hoping to get laid. We go on dates because they are fun. 

I don't come home from a date thinking, well now that I've done for you, it's time for you to do for me. 

That doesn't mean I don't expect M2 to make a good faith effort to maintain a decent sex life with me. I do. We're married. The physical act of sex matters more to me, than it does to her. 

But - feeling connected - that matters every bit as much to M2 as it does to me. And she figured out early on that was an easy way for us to both amplify the connection. 





rich84 said:


> I acknowledge that it was very strong, but I honestly believed I was making some significant progress with that. Something about my recent posts hinted otherwise? I am learning and I would not have made that same mistake now. I agree I was a mess and I let it happen by not strongly exerting my will.
> 
> Things were very fragile at that point and hard lines meant real jeopardy in terms of our relationship. I think it was less about approval/avoidance of disapproval and more about marital survival. We both drew lines in the sand on separate issues. It was scary times and I wasn't prepared to push it for fear of it breaking. I did finally exert myself and do it - we decided on a vasectomy at great emotional cost to her. It was a week later that we found out she was pregnant.
> 
> ...


----------



## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> Let me frame this a different way. I don't believe M2 has ever changed an outcome with me by threatening divorce.
> 
> ...



Great post. Did I say that I expected to cash in chips for favors? That transactional arrangement that you describe - sexual favors for services - has never came up in our relationship - I think - in the way I'm perceiving that you intend it. I don't do things specifically with the expectation that sex will be exchanged as a result. I do things for her that I want to do for her because I love her. 

I go on dates with her and we do things together because I enjoy spending time with her. I don't go on the date hoping to get laid any more than any other time I'm hoping to get laid if that makes sense. I think to myself that there are times that make more sense to have sex - date night when the kids at grandma's house being one of them. But if we've just had sex the day before I might not even really think all that much about it. 

The problem is that I was often thinking about sex like a hungry person thinks about food. When is it going to happen again? Can I do something, say something to influence that? What are my odds at this given time, given her mood, energy level, her relational engagement, etc. This thinking led to crazy levels of codependency. To attempting to please her at excessive costs to me. It upset the balance in our relationship and gave her all the power. And I think she grew bored with it. It wasn't attractive. And then I would hit a wall and blow up and call it all on the carpet because my resentment was sky high and I was ready to burn it all down. With help, I have stopped that destructive line of thinking. Not totally, but nearly. Working on it. There is no outward signs I believe. This is what you helped me with. 

The ultimatum. Was done pre-this. When I was out of control and in a cycle of deterioration. Ready to walk. I didn't do it to get laid like a transaction. Fock me or else! It was I can't do this anymore. And we work on this together and begin to actually talk about it and spend energy on it together, or I need to carry on with my plans to leave.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

I'm attempting to be helpful, not irritating. Sometimes it's hard to do one without a bit of the other. 

I do NOT think you are highly transactional. 

Just that you will benefit from perhaps a different viewpoint. You mentioned coming home from a date and feeling - perhaps disappointed or frustrated that R2, despite not being tired, couldn't be bothered to have sex with you. 

I'm not saying:
- You went on the date in order to get laid
- Or that you are a lame husband

I AM saying this. 

M2 never saw how hurt I was, when she did some stuff AFTER we had sex. Right after, she asked me for something she knew I didn't want to do. Which was to play words with friends with her. I suck at that game. It's maybe the ONLY game she likes that I truly dislike. She had tried a few times to get me to give it a go. Play until I eventually got good. 

I had said no. She has plenty of friends and family to play with. 

Then one night, immediately after sex she asks me again. 

Made me wonder if she felt I 'owed' her something for sleeping with me. Not a good feeling. 

-------
As for mentioning divorce, all I can say is this. 

It's a rare situation indeed where threatening someone results in them loving you more. You MIGHT change the 'mechanics' of their behavior. 

I completely understand the concept of getting angry at someone for not loving you as much as you want or need them to. 

I've been guilty of it. Most folks have. 

But your partner experiences this very differently. And by this I mean the following process:
- Pursuit
- Capture
- Emotional Imprisonment (slightly tongue in cheek here)
- Smothering
- Agressive threats to abandon them





rich84 said:


> Great post. Did I say that I expected to cash in chips for favors? That transactional arrangement that you describe - sexual favors for services - has never came up in our relationship - I think - in the way I'm perceiving that you intend it. I don't do things specifically with the expectation that sex will be exchanged as a result. I do things for her that I want to do for her because I love her.
> 
> I go on dates with her and we do things together because I enjoy spending time with her. I don't go on the date hoping to get laid any more than any other time I'm hoping to get laid if that makes sense. I think to myself that there are times that make more sense to have sex - date night when the kids at grandma's house being one of them. But if we've just had sex the day before I might not even really think all that much about it.
> 
> ...


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



MEM! You're not irritating me. I'm sorry if I don't immediately grasp your points. And I don't want every reply to be a rebuff. But I don't always see a direct parallel to your examples (though insightful and illustrative) that I might directly apply to my own situation. Perhaps some are over my head and so I appreciate the comments and then the dissection pattern.  Nowhere else (except perhaps within IC as you suggested) can I have this level analytical breakdown with another engaged person(s) about my relationship woes. 

Though maybe somewhat transactional, I am not sure I would share your level of hurt in the words with friends situation. Get this: 

You've just had sex. She has a lower drive, a responsive drive. She has overcome whatever hurdles she had to in order to make you happy. Perhaps she really wanted to. Perhaps she had to simply accept it. Perhaps it was a struggle. We don't know. She now believes she made you happy and she feels closer to you. Close enough that she feels safe in suggesting an activity that she knows you do not share the same level of interest or enthusiasm. Not a quid pro quo, necessarily. But something she really WANTS to share with you. She wished you loved it, but you don't. Still, she wants this activity with YOU, not with other friends. And so when would be a good time to suggest this? When you're busy? Distracted? Frustrated? In need of something? Or when you're sated, happy, and full of love for her?

I freaking hate puzzles. My wife loves them, big 2k piece ones where the variation between pieces is so small that you might as well be working the thing upside down. She will occasionally ask me to join her. I THINK she only does this when she feels very connected to me. Safe. Secure in the expectation that I might take the bait. She really wants me to join in. When might she be successful? When might she face the lowest chance of REJECTION? Yep, you guessed it. But I usually comply, because it makes her feel loved and connected. And I think like M2, she might be doing the rejection arithmetic subconsciously. 

That's where I have to stop thinking about score and tit for tat and what's fair and equitable. If I asked her to come to the gym with me. Or come shoot guns. Or have a thought provoking, deeply analytical discussion such as this. Or have passionate, lose yourself in it sex. Her answer would be the same: That's ok, you go ahead. She wouldn't sit down at the table and work the damn puzzle like I would. And THAT'S what causes me pain.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Oh, and your LD temperature scale seems accurate.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,
You are very good at this. And I imagine you are right about the WWF thing. 

It was mainly that - we have a long long list of games and activities we BOTH like. She hasn't raised it since. 




rich84 said:


> MEM! You're not irritating me. I'm sorry if I don't immediately grasp your points. And I don't want every reply to be a rebuff. But I don't always see a direct parallel to your examples (though insightful and illustrative) that I might directly apply to my own situation. Perhaps some are over my head and so I appreciate the comments and then the dissection pattern.  Nowhere else (except perhaps within IC as you suggested) can I have this level analytical breakdown with another engaged person(s) about my relationship woes.
> 
> Though maybe somewhat transactional, I am not sure I would share your level of hurt in the words with friends situation. Get this:
> 
> ...


----------



## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> You are very good at this. And I imagine you are right about the WWF thing.
> 
> ...



Well, you mentioned something previously along these lines. That I was too accommodating. And that fed into my frustration, ultimately. To me, the obvious answer would have been to play words with friends. But you mentioned you did not. And I think you're probably right. 

Back to me watching women's gymnastics a couple months ago with R2, something I can tolerate only in small doses, with covert contracts in tow. She really wanted me to sit there with her. I should have only done so if I had ZERO expectations that the intimacy of snuggling during that activity would lead to sex. Going into anything with the hope that it will lead to sex is a mistake I think. It's a recipe for frustration. 

My mind works in a way that it's trying to play chess several moves ahead. Except I get pissed when she completely changes the rules and moves her knight diagonally across the board. I think some couples can do this because it is more of a sure thing. A flirty text here. A kind gesture there. Sparks. And then there's not much doubt about whether sex will happen. There's not any anxiety. 

I don't have that. Sex comes unpredictably. Even outright declarations of horniness often don't pan out. And other times we do have sex and the catalyst is complete blinded. I feel like I've had to put too much thought into getting sex and with too little success. 

A family friend since passed was a POW in the Pacific during WW2. He barely survived and returned home emaciated. He probably would have lived longer, but he ate himself to death. He stockpiled food because the fear of being hungry overpowered the obvious signals that food was once again plentiful. As we work through these issues, I have to be wary of not acknowledging or being satisfied with improvement.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

There are two types of teasing. There is the playful, mutually enjoyable type. And then the parasitic version. 

I'm using a term from biology for a reason. 

In a sexually unbalanced marriage it is remarkably cruel to lead the HD spouse on and then reject them. 

I've never understood that behavior. 

And from what I read here, there is often an amplifying factor. Gas lighting. The LD spouse feigns ignorance as to why there is an expectation. 

Decent human beings do not dig into other folks hard wired vulnerabilities. M2 is very sensitive about the extra 10-15 pounds she's carrying around. I have never in our marriage teased her about her weight. 

Teasing an American woman about her weight and teasing a sexually frustrated HD spouse are similar. Even more similar if you wait until she's about to order her favorite desert at a restaurant and THEN make a comment about her weight. And then act like you have no idea why she's upset. 

Being transparent sometimes works. 

She sends you a flirty text.
You respond but completely ignore the sexual tone and or any implied promise. 

If she ups the ante. Continue to ignore the sexual tone. 

Eventually she'll ask what 'the problem or your problem' is. 

Then say what's true. The most generous truth I can come up with here is: Flirting without follow through isn't sexy. 

You will get a strong response to that. And that's ok. It opens the door to an analogy. 

If I knew you were hungry, I wouldn't describe your favorite meal, unless I planned to provide it for you. 




rich84 said:


> Well, you mentioned something previously along these lines. That I was too accommodating. And that fed into my frustration, ultimately. To me, the obvious answer would have been to play words with friends. But you mentioned you did not. And I think you're probably right.
> 
> Back to me watching women's gymnastics a couple months ago with R2, something I can tolerate only in small doses, with covert contracts in tow. She really wanted me to sit there with her. I should have only done so if I had ZERO expectations that the intimacy of snuggling during that activity would lead to sex. Going into anything with the hope that it will lead to sex is a mistake I think. It's a recipe for frustration.
> 
> ...


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agree totally. And I also believe that she does this non-maliciously despite it looking and quacking like a duck. When she sent the text, she was feeling horny or was in a mood to please me. At the end of the day, when such teases are actionable, her energy has waned and it doesn't appeal. She either forgets it entirely or feigns ignorance hoping that I won't attempt to progress things or have forgotten myself (fat fvcking chance, I've been thinking about it ever since). 

I've called her on this many times before after going in for the kill only to be rebuffed. And her answer is basically, sorry, that was then and this is now. But we can if you want to. 

Maybe I could work with her arousal and bring her around. But the turnoff of that manipulation, however unintentional, is pretty severe. And I generally don't want it then, given her blasé attitude. Maybe I would open up more doors by trying the handle, but it looks cherry hot. 

In her mind, i think it's not that she waited until I ordered my favorite dessert to tell me that it isn't good for my figure. It is that I ordered my favorite dessert, but the waiter regretfully informed me that the house is out of ingredients and cannot make it. No personal responsibility in the matter.

I am hesitant to do what you say because I think it would halt all sexy texting and the like. Some, of course, do pan out. I see the power in that. But I also see the breakdown. It's basically put up or shut up, fvcking deliver or stop waving the carrot. And I think her go-to is just to shut up and stow away the carrot.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I think you have made it clear that stowing away the carrot isn't okay either, correct?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

None of this is about IQ as you have plenty ++ in that regard. 

This is about emotional strength. A combination of restraint, determination and patience. 

M2 was doing something I REALLY disliked. We had what I believed was a compromise in an area that is more important to her than me. 

I had accommodated her as much as I was able. Happily done so. The thing she wanted - I am NOT ABLE TO DO. However on a regular basis she would get overtly hostile because I wasn't doing the thing - I'm not able to do. Basically because it was a 50% compromise and not a 100% alignment with what she wanted. 

So I stopped doing the 50%. I basically said: If my best is not good enough, I'm done giving it my best in this area. 

And then I went about normal life. After a year M2 tried a nasty bit of manipulation which I ignored. And after two years she directly asked me - why I was no longer making ANY effort in this area. 

I told her. It was all of a five minute conversation. She profusely apologized. Said she would be super appreciative if we could resume the earlier arrangement. 

I'm bringing this up because - we had had that type conversation in the past. But M2 already had her 50%, totally took it for granted and didn't understand why it wasn't ok to be - resentful over something that I AM NOT CAPABLE OF DOING. 

But after two years of - 0% - whole different story. 

And FWIW - the two years could have been a much, much shorter timeframe. M2 just didn't want to ask. And it also could have been a rest of our life thing if she wanted to remain resentful. That was up to her. 




rich84 said:


> Agree totally. And I also believe that she does this non-maliciously despite it looking and quacking like a duck. When she sent the text, she was feeling horny or was in a mood to please me. At the end of the day, when such teases are actionable, her energy has waned and it doesn't appeal. She either forgets it entirely or feigns ignorance hoping that I won't attempt to progress things or have forgotten myself (fat fvcking chance, I've been thinking about it ever since).
> 
> I've called her on this many times before after going in for the kill only to be rebuffed. And her answer is basically, sorry, that was then and this is now. But we can if you want to.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

There's a difference between: you looked hot this morning....
And
I'm going to ravish you tonight. 

The former is harmless banter - and warrants a: glad you noticed

The latter might best be handled by: Promises promises

As to her intent I agree it's not malice. She wants to know you want her. R2 seems to want a sexualized relationship without much sex. 

That's why I called it parasitic. She's getting something she wants, causing you distress in the process and seems ok with that. 

-----------
All that said - M2 can say anything she wants in the morning. If I'm not getting her happy/desire vibe in the evening, I would never initiate. 

But then - it's easy to put her first - because if I said: I really want you. She'd say sure. Normally that's not my style. I prefer the: I really want you - sometime in the next day or two. 

It's an honest statement - simultaneously gives her a bunch of space. After I say that, I don't DO anything. Balls in her court. I trust her. 





rich84 said:


> Agree totally. And I also believe that she does this non-maliciously despite it looking and quacking like a duck. When she sent the text, she was feeling horny or was in a mood to please me. At the end of the day, when such teases are actionable, her energy has waned and it doesn't appeal. She either forgets it entirely or feigns ignorance hoping that I won't attempt to progress things or have forgotten myself (fat fvcking chance, I've been thinking about it ever since).
> 
> I've called her on this many times before after going in for the kill only to be rebuffed. And her answer is basically, sorry, that was then and this is now. But we can if you want to.
> 
> ...


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



MEM, if you feel comfortable, I would very much like to know what it was you were unable to deliver at 100% and how she attempted to manipulate you (via pm). I think there's another lesson in it for me. If not, I still very much appreciate the allegory. 

I am unsure where the line CAN be drawn. It is an unknown. Was 50% all that you could possibly do? Or all that you were willing to do? And you had a breaking point where you finally got turned off by her resentment and pushing and shut it down altogether. Obviously she didn't want that, either. Unless you discussed it, that 50% is your hard limit, why would she ever be satisfied with less than what she thinks she needs and perceives you capable of? 

I get 50% or less than what I want and think I need. She knows I need more. She has said that she will never be ALL that I want her to be. So, 100% is off the table. But she has never said that 37% is all that she CAN do. If 81% is possible, I want that! So, I assume it's all she's willing to do. And that is influenced by many motivational factors. And this is all really unsexy talk about hard nosed negotiation for something two people should want to freely give to each other in abundance.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> I think you have made it clear that stowing away the carrot isn't okay either, correct?



Yes, but Retreat is always an option for the conflict averse. Stowing the carrot is the only option if you can't/won't deliver and carrot waving is frowned upon. It doesn't matter if I made it clear or not.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, a benevolent parasite. I'm sure she would love that as a pet name.  I have never even thought about the concept of "I want you so bad right now! How's your next Tuesday look?!" That is foreign to me. Passion is now. But I get the compromise. 

Also, promises, promises = skepticism. She rarely rises to such a challenge. I need to think of a similar approach. Maybe even more playful.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

rich84 said:


> Yes, but Retreat is always an option for the conflict averse. Stowing the carrot is the only option if you can't/won't deliver and carrot waving is frowned upon. It doesn't matter if I made it clear or not.


I understand. 

What does matter is her understanding of what you will not tolerate.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

I'm a non practicing Jew married to a practicing Catholic. 

We made some compromises way back at the start. 
- She's religious, I'm not, agreed she could raise the kids Catholic 
- I'm a strong believer in rationally choosing family size and child spacing. Told M2 that if she wanted to practice natural family planning - we were incompatible. Also told her that I would encourage our kids to be responsible users of birth control. 
She agreed to all that. 
- She did tell me - 6 weeks before the wedding she wasn't sure she wanted to proceed - because I wasn't willing to even consider converting. While surprised, as this came out of the blue, I was completely calm when I replied with: Ok. If you want to cancel you can. Thing is, other people are involved now. So this is our one chance at a wedding. We cancel the wedding, and later you decide you DO want to marry me, we'll get married. The three of us, you me and the justice of the peace or Priest. Let me know what you want to do. Just don't marry me thinking I'll convert. It isn't going to happen. Within the hour she said she wanted to stay on track. 

During the course of our marriage I went to church with M2 and the kids. And now the kids are grown it's just me and M2 who go. I do that because I love and support her.

She's never given up trying to convert me, and I respond to that in a good natured way. But now and then she would get very angry that I haven't converted. She wouldn't say so directly. But eventually I realized what was happening. 

So the 50% was me happily and consistently going to church. The 100% would be me converting. 

See the thing is, she knew that I went all those years - out of love. It's why she didn't want to ASK me to go when I stopped. M2 knows that the mechanical act of going isn't what matters. It's what that act MEANS. 

As for the manipulation. About a year after I stopped going with her she said that I had stopped going when medical problems caused her pain during intercourse - and we stopped having intercourse. I shook my head in disbelief and said that had nothing to do with why I stopped. And that the dates weren't even close. She said she didn't believe me. I shrugged and dropped it. A year later she directly asked me to resume going. I asked her if she knew why I stopped. Then we had a totally calm, transparent conversation about the real reason. She didn't deny the resentment or occasionally hostile behavior. Apologized. Promised to be grateful for the 50%. And that was that. 






rich84 said:


> MEM, if you feel comfortable, I would very much like to know what it was you were unable to deliver at 100% and how she attempted to manipulate you (via pm). I think there's another lesson in it for me. If not, I still very much appreciate the allegory.
> 
> I am unsure where the line CAN be drawn. It is an unknown. Was 50% all that you could possibly do? Or all that you were willing to do? And you had a breaking point where you finally got turned off by her resentment and pushing and shut it down altogether. Obviously she didn't want that, either. Unless you discussed it, that 50% is your hard limit, why would she ever be satisfied with less than what she thinks she needs and perceives you capable of?
> 
> I get 50% or less than what I want and think I need. She knows I need more. She has said that she will never be ALL that I want her to be. So, 100% is off the table. But she has never said that 37% is all that she CAN do. If 81% is possible, I want that! So, I assume it's all she's willing to do. And that is influenced by many motivational factors. And this is all really unsexy talk about hard nosed negotiation for something two people should want to freely give to each other in abundance.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

Best to give a muted / low affect response to her flirting. Even claims of being horny. Low key - friendly - but not very sexual. 

A simple: 
- that's good. Or 
- a single smile icon

And don't think about it. Because it does NOT mean anything. 

And when you get home, act the same way you normally do. Happy to see her. No more. No less. Don't reference the earlier exchanges. And if she does so - just smile. 

My guess is that she will keep upping the ante. She likes getting you going. Don't let that happen. It's a control thing. Stay friendly and low affect. If she wants to initiate - in bed - she will. Or if she wants to take you to bed. She will. Let her. Or not. 

But for lack of a better phrase - don't take her seriously - because in this part of the marriage - she has shown herself to be actively untrustworthy. 

Now this next bit - is solely my personal experience. But for me nothing else is more true. 

Any of M2's behavior patterns - that fit the profile below - were repeated over and over UNTIL - they produced a complete NON reaction from me. The profile was:
- Things that would typically upset a normal person
- Thngs that, situation reversed I would not do to M2

No matter what I said or did, if I was upset by her behavior, it continued. If I acclimated to it, it stopped. 

R2 will stop doing this, when you stop reacting to it. 






rich84 said:


> Well, you mentioned something previously along these lines. That I was too accommodating. And that fed into my frustration, ultimately. To me, the obvious answer would have been to play words with friends. But you mentioned you did not. And I think you're probably right.
> 
> Back to me watching women's gymnastics a couple months ago with R2, something I can tolerate only in small doses, with covert contracts in tow. She really wanted me to sit there with her. I should have only done so if I had ZERO expectations that the intimacy of snuggling during that activity would lead to sex. Going into anything with the hope that it will lead to sex is a mistake I think. It's a recipe for frustration.
> 
> ...


----------



## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing your story. I'm lucky. I changed my religious outlook after marriage and she has embraced me without any reservations. 

This makes perfect sense... in helping me to modulate my expectations, reactions, outlook, etc. and get through the day more or less on an even keel. It's also instructive in how to get her to stop that behavior, the dead end flirting, or to up the ante. I guess I just never considered to escalate anything with a Meh response. In my experience meh begat meh or less. Guess I will have to test it. It doesn't have the same potential for damage that an outright put up or shut up does.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> I understand.
> 
> What does matter is her understanding of what you will not tolerate.



I've been very vocal this year, especially in the last several months, in expressing exactly when and why she has hurt me and what I am not willing to tolerate. In the past, however, I demonstrated a willingness to tolerate a lot of crap. So far, she has responded well to these changes.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Good.

I went through something similar in early 2014, although in fairness, I had a lot more junk to clean up on my side of the street.

Mem's advice was tremendously helpful.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

rich84 said:


> This makes perfect sense... in helping me to modulate my expectations, reactions, outlook, etc. and get through the day more or less on an even keel. It's also instructive in how to get her to stop that behavior, the dead end flirting, or to up the ante. I guess I just never considered to escalate anything with a Meh response. In my experience meh begat meh or less. Guess I will have to test it. It doesn't have the same potential for damage that an outright put up or shut up does.


Hmmm... I don't think talking solves many problems. But, I do think there's a time to communicate.

I had a similar problem on a lesser scale. When my wife was away (and this happens fairly often) she had a habit of promising me a blowjob (not prompted by me) as soon as she got home. My wife is a low energy person and gets pretty wiped out pretty easily. Combine that with a long flight and when she got home she'd often have to beg off due to tiredness. I have no problem with that and, knowing how she is, I'd never initiate in those circumstances. But it was irritating to have something offered and then not delivered on.

I could have just stopped responding to those offers, said "yeah, sure" or dismissed them in some way. But, what if she thought that was because I don't like blowjobs! If I offered to do something I knew my wife would love and she just passed over it, I'm pretty sure I'd stop offering. 

So I told her that I appreciated the offer and the thought, but that it was disturbing to get excited about something only to have it not occur (even knowing that there was a good reason). I told her that she was not to promise blowjobs on travel days and that if she felt compelled to violate this rule that she needed to be prepared to try her best to follow through.

So, I'd point out to your wife ahead of time why, in the future, you may not be responding in the way she might expect. Or give her the option of continuing with the behavior as long as she's prepared to follow through.

On another thread you mentioned that your wife likes to grope you on a regular basis with no intention of following it up with sex. I do think that's she's trying to get reactions out of you to make herself feel desirable. But, as mem said, "Decent human beings do not dig into other folks hard wired vulnerabilities"

On a side note, it seems like you are totally getting your sh!t together.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I could have just stopped responding to those offers, said "yeah, sure" or dismissed them in some way. But, what if she thought that was because I don't like blowjobs! If I offered to do something I knew my wife would love and she just passed over it, I'm pretty sure I'd stop offering.


This is so VERY true. My wife used to ask if I wanted a BJ and I would turn her down because I thought she was just doing it for me, out of pitty. Guess what? Soon, she stopped offering.

Now, even if I am bleeding out with a tourniquet on my leg, I will happily let her give me one. On top of that, I will moan, squirm and flail all over the place actively showing how great she is in giving them. 

You have to put yourself in your wifes shoes. Acceptance of such a wonderful gift AND deliberate awesome feedback on your part is a must!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

Is she still groping you, getting you hard and then leaving you hanging? I recall she thinks that's funny. But I can assure you that no one else does. 




rich84 said:


> I've been very vocal this year, especially in the last several months, in expressing exactly when and why she has hurt me and what I am not willing to tolerate. In the past, however, I demonstrated a willingness to tolerate a lot of crap. So far, she has responded well to these changes.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Hmmm... I don't think talking solves many problems. But, I do think there's a time to communicate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have no clue, honestly. Her gut reaction is to shut down, withdraw. So this very well could cause her to stop sexual flirting altogether. This is basically a put up or shut up challenge. Alternatively, meh could also hurt her feelings and cause her to just stop as well. My instinct is usually to communicate, but I need to do it in a non-whiny way. 

She gropes me constantly. Mostly in passing, but also frequently in prolonged sessions that are inopportune settings for sex (like home when the kid is still awake). Low risk for sex at that time. Still unsure of her motivation. She says my erection is kinda fascinating, like a good clinical specimen to handle. Lol. Not sexual, at least in an overtly arousing way on her side. It's like the sexy texts. Do I really want to discourage something so close to what I want when sometimes it leads sex? Like I said before, I shut it down in the past and it stopped altogether. It also stopped being a possible avenue for initiation. 

Next time I'm dragging her to the bedroom, locking the door, and getting down. And if she puts on the brakes, then that will be an awesome opportunity to have that exact convo and to use some of my new skills to do it without being pissy and whiny about it.

Thanks! I do feel like I'm getting my sh!t together. Much better control of my own outlook and wellbeing. Like I said before, I know what I have done has led to more sex, but the biggest change has felt like improvements to me.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

UMP said:


> This is so VERY true. My wife used to ask if I wanted a BJ and I would turn her down because I thought she was just doing it for me, out of pitty. Guess what? Soon, she stopped offering.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Haha! Rejection does suck.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> 
> 
> Is she still groping you, getting you hard and then leaving you hanging? I recall she thinks that's funny. But I can assure you that no one else does.



Yes. Not funny. But maybe entertaining or comforting to her. She will sometimes initiate the groping with a disclaimer: I want to just feel it. That means she wants to grope me free of risk of me initiating, which is bullsh!t. So, I started groping back, playing with her breasts, etc. And now I can get her aroused most of the time where it stops being just entertaining/comforting and she is receptive. What stupid games I have to play. 

Another poster said I was manipulating my wife. Lol. It takes two to tango.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

rich84 said:


> Next time I'm dragging her to the bedroom, locking the door, and getting down. And if she puts on the brakes, then that will be an awesome opportunity to have that exact convo and to use some of my new skills to do it without being pissy and whiny about it.


Good plan!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

What you describe below is a very high functioning adaptive response. 

Take a bow.




rich84 said:


> Yes. Not funny. But maybe entertaining or comforting to her. She will sometimes initiate the groping with a disclaimer: I want to just feel it. That means she wants to grope me free of risk of me initiating, which is bullsh!t. So, I started groping back, playing with her breasts, etc. And now I can get her aroused most of the time where it stops being just entertaining/comforting and she is receptive. What stupid games I have to play.
> 
> Another poster said I was manipulating my wife. Lol. It takes two to tango.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Thanks!

I want to explore something that you mentioned previously. 

Edge. You mentioned that when its been a few days and I'm feeling neglected that I should remain playful, but introduce edge. 

I think I'm having trouble maintaining engagement, staying playful, and putting an edge on things. I think it probably just looks like distance, aloofness, and not all that playful. And this does not really work for her in that there needs to be more closeness for her to feel emotionally connected enough for sex. 

I think when sex is too infrequent I just want either sex or to be well the hell away from her. And those opposing drives aren't compatible. She needs closeness to feel like sex is on the table. And I struggle to maintain closeness for long without sex. Resentment sets in and I want to push her away. 

Ideally, I would keep calm and carry on. Banter banter, jab jab. Here, present, not pissy. Fun, sexy, convert when possible. I get it. It's just kind of exhausting at times, and the payout isn't very lucrative. It's husband of the year material, she thinks things are sky high when I maintain. But I'm pretty much still not OK and it's largely a very conscious, strenuous exercise.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

I wish I could like your post 100 times. 

If you don't mind my asking:
- At what frequency do you feel good / happy / relaxed
- What is your current frequency 





rich84 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I want to explore something that you mentioned previously.
> 
> ...


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm trying to be honest with you all and myself. Because usually I am an optimist, but that means I can fool myself into believing all is well... Right up until it very clearly isn't. 

I'm really not sure to be honest, exactly what I need. I suspect that it's less than I think, but being deprived for so long you have that starved mentality. I can frequently go a day here and there without a release (depending on exertion and stress), but average baseline drive for me is daily, sometimes multiple times daily. 

That said, I would be super happy with three to four times per week for sexual encounters with R2. Of course daily would be awesome, but I'm not sure I would need that over time. She thinks two times per week is reasonable and we have agreed to that in the past (hey, 2 is better than none), but she has never kept her word. 

We have a really hit or miss thing going on currently. We've had some 3-4x weeks and some zero. Current one is a zero. We went seven weeks without during early stages of her pregnancy, and I was losing my mind (suffering in non-whiny silence). And during our roommate phase the last few years before 2015 we would serially go about once every 3-4 weeks. I think I masturbate even more during these times because I have no meaningful outlet for my sexuality. 

R2 works two nights per week. And then the following day after a shift she gets 4-6 hours of sleep. No sleep = no sex. So, that generally only leaves 3 days per week for which to score. And those three days may be consecutive, so 3x in 3 days is just crazy to her. 

So, I never feel like it's enough, even on 3-4x weeks, because I know the next week is going to be back to dumpster diving for apple cores and yesterday's lasagna.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

rich84 said:


> I'm trying to be honest with you all and myself. Because usually I am an optimist, but that means I can fool myself into believing all is well... Right up until it very clearly isn't.
> 
> I'm really not sure to be honest, exactly what I need. I suspect that it's less than I think, but being deprived for so long you have that starved mentality. I can frequently go a day here and there without a release (depending on exertion and stress), but average baseline drive for me is daily, sometimes multiple times daily.
> 
> ...


Hmmm....

The idea was that if you did things right, your wife would want to have sex with you.

Seems like you're doing things right.

Wife still doesn't want to have sex with you.

And the problem is that "doing things right" is not without cost to you.

You might want to just keep this up to see if things improve over time. Her pregnancy is certainly a complication.

Sooner or later, if things don't improve and she is unwilling or unable to meet your needs, you're going to have to change your tactics, there will have to be consequences for her. If there are consequences and she still doesn't want to have sex with you, then she is unable to meet your needs and you'll have to decide what to do about that.

The next step is the 180, where you continue "doing everything right" but only for your kids, yourself and your happiness. Anything done solely for her sake must stop. No initiating sex (I'm not sure I'd even accept it if she offered), you'll just have to rub one out on a daily basis. That will make you more distant from her, but that's kind of what you're shooting for anyway. Whether you tell her about this ahead of time or wait until she asks, you only discuss it once. See what happens. If she doesn't come around (and you shouldn't be doing this expecting her to), you know where you stand.

I'm all for "maning up", focusing on yourself more, no whining, no begging, no being pissy, no covert contracts, etc. But if you do all that and you're not happy with your love life, then it's time to consider alternatives.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Hmmm....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was there several months ago. Had she not gotten pregnant, I might have been selecting a lawyer instead of planning for a nursery. That reset things. But it also reminded me of what I would be giving up. There's a lot that is right with our relationship. She's not frigid and hateful. She's actually a very caring, sweet person, and that's what makes it so tough to even think about a hard 180. It's difficult to keep perspective and coping varies. 

Today I got a text to the effect of it's on tonight. I gave her the equivalent of meh. And when I get home she is saying she really wants it. It's been six days. Her desire is there when I'm firing on all cylinders. But it's still way less than I want/need. 

So, go nuclear when things are just suboptimal? To her it would be beyond cruel and completely confounding to throw away our marriage. I think the healthy thing that happened this year is that I dropped all that fear. Fear of upsetting her. Fear of leaving her. Fear of being a single dad. Fear of financial setback. So, if things don't progress or they actually devolve, I will be prepared to act and not be limited by fear. 

This has changed the dynamic in our relationship and shifted a lot of power back in my court. And this makes things more tolerable because I don't feel that I'm constantly giving so much of myself unreciprocated. 

I'm in a better situation than when I started posting 7 months ago. It's kind of like a limbo where it's not all bad and it's not all good. In my mind it would need to be bad, like it was before, to pull the plug. Where I felt like she wasn't trying at all, was indifferent to my suffering, etc. 

Actually, what I fear the most now is being vulnerable to manipulation from other women. If an attractive woman showed me real desire, that would be some sick kryptonite. And I think the only reason that hasn't happened is due to active self-guarding and strong boundaries. Part of this dilemma is not succumbing to the thoughts that our lack of sex has something to do with my attractiveness. I don't think I got so much as a sideways glance from the opposite sex the last few years. In a cruel twist of fate, my changes have brought women out of the woodwork to gawk and flirt. It does two things. First it makes me feel good. And then it makes me feel really bad and dissatisfied with my sex life.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

The challenge with total transparency - is that - it can be very painful. 

If I was R2 - and I read what you wrote below - I would see you as weak. Really weak. 

I'll frame this differently. You two are sexually incompatible. That's just the truth. 

The things that arent clear to me - are as follows: 
- Are YOU strong enough to lead the marriage. So far I haven't seen that. You weren't able to resist her for more than a few months before she got pregnant. 
- Are you able to see her as she really is and still love her? That's very much a two part question. And I'll tell you why. You are equating 'nice and sweet' to affect. That's madness. Affect is a only a small part of 'nice and sweet'. Much of what you describe about R2's behavior strikes me as manipulative and selfish. 

You will NEVER BRING OUT HER BEST, UNTIL YOU RECOGNIZE AND ACKNOWLEDGE HER WORST. 

There is a subtext running through your thread that sounds a bit like this: Unless things are 'just so' for R2, sex is off the table. But even when things ARE just so for R2, sex is something she tolerates. I'm not saying she doesn't cum. Or that you are bad in bed. I'm saying that something is quite working for her sexually. 

And there's a parallel subtext running through your thread: I 'might' break my vows because R2 isn't treating me well. That statement makes her the leader and you the follower. The least sexy pattern in existence. 

I believe that R2 is more primal than you realize. Rubbing your tool til you get hard and then saying - I'm not going to have sex with you - is a very direct challenge. In a way it's an act of aggression. That isn't necessarily bad. In fact it's behavior like that which makes me think she wants more edge from you. 

Gymnastics is a perfect example. She knows you don't like it. When she asks you to watch it, that's when you say with a smile: I'll watch it as long as I'm getting a back massage / back scratch. 

Inside her sweet/nice affect, R2 will totally understand that response. She may pretend to be hurt, but trust me on this, that type thing is something she'll understand. 




rich84 said:


> I was there several months ago. Had she not gotten pregnant, I might have been selecting a lawyer instead of planning for a nursery. That reset things. But it also reminded me of what I would be giving up. There's a lot that is right with our relationship. She's not frigid and hateful. She's actually a very caring, sweet person, and that's what makes it so tough to even think about a hard 180. It's difficult to keep perspective and coping varies.
> 
> Today I got a text to the effect of it's on tonight. I gave her the equivalent of meh. And when I get home she is saying she really wants it. It's been six days. Her desire is there when I'm firing on all cylinders. But it's still way less than I want/need.
> 
> ...


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Ok ok ok. That was weak. I was admitting my weakness, something I'm determined to turn around. I think you are right about there being more -her needing something different - from me. And I think it might be edge too. 

I am pushing, exerting my will, where before I would have taken her affect at face value and not. 

Why did I not rise to her challenges before? I didn't see them as that. But she was exerting her power over me by doing something that clearly left me in the cold. 

I think I have read the cues and taken sex off the table out of consideration for her affect or avoidance of rejection. And I've probably missed a lot of opportunities. When the communication is so clear - I want to play with your junk, but I don't want sex - I felt like a jerk pushing for more. And sometimes she would reinforce that message if I got carried away. And it is just unfathomable that this would be challenge. But if it's not a challenge then it's very near to abuse - something I failed to see. Nobody I've loved has ever intentionally hurt me or challenged me in such an counter-intuitive way. I value directness. And I thought married couples should try to pull in the same direction. I would never tease her about something important to her that she needed. So, you're saying I've failed a lot of **** tests?


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Last night we had sex. It was really intense and satisfying and we both were like - wow, we needed that. 

Then, she started doing it again. Rubbing it while we were watching tv. I think she felt safe because we just had sex. But of course I got turned on, and she almost had me trained to just let her do that unchecked. So I just took her and it was even more intense and adventurous than the first. So, either she didn't see that as harming me or she wasn't done with sex, I don't know. But I guess I will view them as challenges and if she protests tell her don't poke the bear.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

[ 

So, go nuclear when things are just suboptimal? To her it would be beyond cruel and completely confounding to throw away our marriage. 

People need to turn this **** back around....go on the offensive.

Babe....it is cruel that you will just throw away a marriage because you do not want to be intimate with your husband more.

Just like a BS should quit being scared to file because they are going to loose half the time with the children if they divorce. I would file and throw it in WS face....You are willing to throw away half your children's time for some strange!

Hammer home what THEY are going to loose with a f..ing sledge hammer.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I applied a sledge hammer in my situation. It made things worse.

Caring less, and demonstrating that through action, had a larger impact than caring more and doing more.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Divinely Favored said:


> [
> 
> So, go nuclear when things are just suboptimal? To her it would be beyond cruel and completely confounding to throw away our marriage.
> 
> ...



This isn't a fidelity situation, and to again destabilize things would be counter-productive at this point. That is a way to reframe it in the event of nuclear fallout.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EDIT


rich84 said:


> Last night we had sex. It was really intense and satisfying and we both were like - wow, we needed that.
> 
> Then, she started doing it again. Rubbing it while we were watching tv. I think she felt safe because we just had sex. But of course I got turned on, and she almost had me trained to just let her do that unchecked. So I just took her and it was even more intense and adventurous than the first. So, either she didn't see that as harming me or she wasn't done with sex, I don't know. But I guess I will view them as challenges and if she protests tell her don't poke the bear.


So, you know what to do to make things better. That's really good.

But, what if you don't like having to do those things?

That's the question that you'll need to ponder.

There's a line between improving yourself and your behavior and constantly having to do things that you're not comfortable with and don't want to have to do the rest of your life.

However, things do seem to be gong well and you wouldn't want to go nuclear at this point. You might have to at some point in the future and you seem ready to do that if needed.

There was a long thread some time ago by a guy whose wife was losing attraction for him and taking him for granted. He found that by constantly doing all the right things, her attraction for him returned. However, he played the "game" all day at work and would really have preferred to just relax at his "castle" with the woman who claimed to love him. So, the sex and attraction improved. But was it worth it? I presume it was the best outcome he could hope for in that situation and better than just chucking it all. But it wasn't what he really wanted. So, was it a happy ending? Hard to say. EDIT: That was the neuklas thread


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> I applied a sledge hammer in my situation. It made things worse.
> 
> Caring less, and demonstrating that through action, had a larger impact than caring more and doing more.



That has been my experience as well. And it is super counterintuitive to say the least. In most everything else in life, better input equals a better output. I would not have reached that conclusion on my own. I would have kept doing more, caring more, until it broke.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

rich84 said:


> *Nobody I've loved has ever intentionally hurt me or challenged me in such an counter-intuitive way. I value directness. And I thought married couples should try to pull in the same direction. I would never tease her about something important to her that she needed.*


You don't like that she would do this. It's a basic character flaw of hers. It all depends on whether or not you can live with this. You probably can.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> You don't like that she would do this. It's a basic character flaw of hers. It all depends on whether or not you can live with this. You probably can.



Sure, it's not the end of the world. I'm not even convinced she does it maliciously or consciously (in terms of knowing its full effect on me). But the variable that is really important is my ability to understand and interpret these actions. If I can manipulate the situation to mutual benefit, then it's much more benign. If I've decoded the message then I can play the game for as long as I'm inclined. And if it is an untenable situation where there's no mutual benefit, only my harm, then I can stand up to her and call her on it. 

MEM says we are sexually incompatible as a matter of fact. And that I think is true in that both our baseline drives and our routes to arousal are different. But I do not take that to mean that we are incapable a mutually satisfying sex life. If that were the case, I would be working my exit plan instead of an investment plan. And you all would just be saying, "divorce!"


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> EDIT
> 
> So, you know what to do to make things better. That's really good.
> 
> ...



I totally get what you're saying. Maybe with another woman it wouldn't be so much work. I could relax, be more myself, and still have a great sex life. Well, hind sight is 20/20, and I overlooked key compatibility points. I was younger and uneducated about such matters. But such is life. If I bailed every time something got hard I wouldn't have anything to show for my efforts. So, as much weakness as we've uncovered here on TAM on my part in our marriage, I really don't consider myself a weak person. I love being challenged and rising to the occasion. I just don't want to play a county fair game that is rigged. I am willing to do mental and physical work, even if it's not fair, as long as it's not a ring and bottle toss.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,

Maybe this is the woman brings out your best. 




rich84 said:


> I totally get what you're saying. Maybe with another woman it wouldn't be so much work. I could relax, be more myself, and still have a great sex life. Well, hind sight is 20/20, and I overlooked key compatibility points. I was younger and uneducated about such matters. But such is life. If I bailed every time something got hard I wouldn't have anything to show for my efforts. So, as much weakness as we've uncovered here on TAM on my part in our marriage, I really don't consider myself a weak person. I love being challenged and rising to the occasion. I just don't want to play a county fair game that is rigged. I am willing to do mental and physical work, even if it's not fair, as long as it's not a ring and bottle toss.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Rich,
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe this is the woman brings out your best.



Wow, MEM, you're quite the romantic! 

How to sh!t test and sexually deprive your man into a better existence, By R2. Lol. 

Seriously, that's actually a very cool thought.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

It's been a month since my last post here, so I thought I might update. 

Seems things are going swimmingly. She says she is happier than ever before, and is very much in love with me (she admits more than before). We are excited about the coming addition (child), and life is good. I'm quite busy with work and things are happening there for me. 

Sex life is beyond what I expected. I have zero desperation. I feel in control of my sexual outcome. I feel like I have the power to seduce my wife and rejection isn't something I fear. Frequency is way up. I feel desired. We talk about sex more freely and likes. I feel a whole lot more connected to her. She seems to have a baseline drive now that operates not just on a responsive level. She is aggressive at times. I am much more aggressive and do not come on tepidly. This was a turn off. I now take her when I want and if it's a no, then so be it. But it's rarely a no now, and more often an enthusiastic response. 

I think it's a combo of a few factors. One being changes I made that we've hashed out. Also changes she's made over the course of our struggles and meeting in the middle. And the biggest factor seems to be the pregnancy hormones affecting her libido. It's possible that our changes led to a shift in her desire, but I'm skeptical. I think it's far more likely the pregnancy hormones are driving up her desire and she's getting a taste of ND or HD for the first time in a long time. She also thinks the birth control messed her libido up. This is what I recall during dating when condoms were our only strategy. 

We had a discussion about her newfound needs. And all our discussions are lighthearted now. We're not getting aggravated. Anyway, I was gone on business for a few days and it had been 6 days. She was desperate to connect when I came home, but I was exhausted from a full day of travel. She didn't mention it or come on to me, but the next day she told me she was in misery. So, I mentioned that this was how I felt pretty much all the time with my drive. She nearly lost it, saying how bad she felt for me. Sex twice that day and has already stated its on tonight. It's changing things for me and it's like I am more free now that sexual starvation isn't a factor. 

Trying to prepare for the fallout that will be childbirth, set in motion a new routine, and solidify changes as much as possible before maximum disruption changes the dynamic. Hoping that the bottom doesn't fall out on this, because that would be very sad having known our potential. 

Cliff notes: having a lot of sex. Connecting in new ways. Damn this is nice. Hope it lasts.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Thought I would update. It's been a year since I last posted on this thread. I'm thankful for this community of strangers that likely helped me save my marriage from myself. 

I can't say that our sex life is my dream come true. But it has come so far over the last year and a half that I am amazed now at how close I was to imploding the marriage. It is dramatically better. 

Our daughter that was conceived during this turbulence has been such a joy to our lives. Despite the added stress of another little one, my wife and I have really bonded over her presence. Because things really started to turn the corner when she came, we joke that she saved us. It did NOT hold true, the predictions that she would exacerbate our HD/LD problem. 

We have sex 2-3 times per week. Before I started posting it was 1-2 times per month. Quality is good, there is no duty sex. I am still more HD than her, but the gap is much, much closer. I now find myself wanting sex, but feeling that I don't actually need it. I now trust that it won't be too long before the opportunity comes again. She still has some body image issues, but she's frustrated by them. I think she's tired of letting them hinder her own enjoyment. We talk about sex more freely. My neediness is under control. Control - she needed to see that from me. To her I was out of control with my needs, and I was acting out of desperation. Not a sexy stance. 

I changed several things to be less codependent. No covert contracts. More assertiveness. Respectful and kind, but unaffected by her mood or her acceptance. If I'm being a good person and husband, it's ok that shes mad at me or disagrees. That's life. I do things for myself that I want to do if reasonable and that do not cause her harm. Before I would have put everything through a lens - is this going to cause conflict? I now realize that I was terribly codependent and weak. Classic nice guy tendencies that I learned growing up. 

These changes have given me more confidence. It comes from within and not from validation from her. That was too much to ask of her, anyway, to validate my worth through sex. That's not what sex is for. 

So, there's just not the same stress in sex. It's to be fun. And bonding. And enjoyable. I am confident that I'm decently skilled at sex, but I no longer get bent out of shape if things don't click. Before I would have gotten upset and frustrated if it wasn't firing on all cylinders. I would have used that as justification that my wife didn't desire me or that we were incompatible. Not true. Now I accept that not every time has to be a personal record attempt. That just adds stress and stress is the enemy of sexy. 

I no longer resent my wife. I am cherishing her. I think I still have a lot to learn, but I believe we've made it to the other side. Thank you to those that participated in my thread and helped me understand some of my mistakes. I really think that I played a major part in creating an environment in which sex and intimacy could not thrive. Nobody talks about these things in real life. I'm glad I stumbled onto TAM. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Nice update, Rich. 

Remember, this is not a destination. No time to rest on the laurels. Continue to work on making you a better you, while romancing your wife, and you should do just fine.

Take care, brother.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Excellent update, rich! So glad you came back to share .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Thank you both. I will continue to put energy in myself and my marriage. There is no autopilot button for either. Coasting is decay. 

It does me good to reflect on this thread for perspective and to see the progress. It's always harder to see progress that is slowly incremental, but you can't deny it when you compare against early measurements. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I read this thread a couple of days ago and to be honest, I was dreading the update that bumped it to current status again. I fully expected you to either come on and say things had gone down hill after the baby was born - as is the experience of so many similar threads, asking for more help - or to say you were done and moving on. I was pleasantly surprised by your update - excited, even, to hear a success story for once. Way to go Rich - and way to go to your wife. She stepped up to the plate, responding to your changes with changes of her own. I hope you know how rare that is - at least from the stories here on TAM.

I do have some questions. From your later posts before this latest update, you talked about being more aggressive and that she responded to that. Can you explain what you mean by being more aggressive? How much do you think that change played in your success? How did you combat the after pregnancy hormones and common after baby decline in sex and keep things on track? Has your wife shared with you any of her journey and how she was able to make the changes within herself?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

mary35 said:


> I read this thread a couple of days ago and to be honest, I was dreading the update that bumped it to current status again. I fully expected you to either come on and say things had gone down hill after the baby was born - as is the experience of so many similar threads, asking for more help - or to say you were done and moving on. I was pleasantly surprised by your update - excited, even, to hear a success story for once. Way to go Rich - and way to go to your wife. She stepped up to the plate, responding to your changes with changes of her own. I hope you know how rare that is - at least from the stories here on TAM.
> 
> I do have some questions. From your later posts before this latest update, you talked about being more aggressive and that she responded to that. Can you explain what you mean by being more aggressive? How much do you think that change played in your success? How did you combat the after pregnancy hormones and common after baby decline in sex and keep things on track? Has your wife shared with you any of her journey and how she was able to make the changes within herself?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I think over time she had trained me to initiate weakly. Rejection has a way of doing that. Kind of like testing to see if the iron is still hot. You're not going to just grab the thing. But that's more of a turn on. Specifically, I took too much time, in too soft of a way, to get things going. In my mind I was trying to get her aroused before we jumped in, but to her it must have been lame and taking too long, and she probably just wanted it to be over to be honest. Her drive was really low. I think she was less sexually responsive to me. She was so fixated on her hangups that she often couldn't get in the mindset for arousal. She limited foreplay like oral for her that might have helped. It was all bad. 

The times that we did have really good sex were when I was frustrated and probably selfish. Ripped her panties down, kissed her hard, manually stimulated her, got to business quickly, etc. Just rougher. This sounds horrible, but one time she actually asked me what I was doing. She was frustrated that I was pawing around and not progressing. It was an eye opener. For me, I would like to have a response, a go ahead. Not consent per se (as that was clearly implied), but reciprocity of excitement/passion - that gets me going where I can be more free to just go for it. But she often showed very little enthusiasm. It's hard to put a high level of enthusiasm into someone that isn't matching that level of intensity. Hence, the weak starts. Stopping that behavior played a role, for sure. Confidence is sexy. 

I really think the birth control played a major part in her low drive. After giving birth, her drive was higher than before. She is very ready every 4-6 days as opposed to, well, never. Sleep deprivation hindered it somewhat but it's getting better now that the baby is 7 mo and sleeping better. She did not get post-partum depression or lose her drive altogether like after our first born. Again, I swear the birth control had contributed to lowering her drive and causing her depression for years. She had a tubal so BC no more. She's a much happier, energetic person these days. 

She is still uncomfortable with talking about sex and she has not been completely forthcoming with her changes. She still struggles with body image issues. She still cringes if I want to go down on her and she's not fresh out of the shower. She still thinks she sucks at oral (haha) despite my insistence otherwise. We talk about these things when she will go there, which is usually after sex. She fully understands how important sex is to me. She understands that it is a necessary part of being married to me, and that she would lose me if she didn't put in the effort. 

He's a good example of how far we've come. The other night we had sex for an hour straight. It wasn't working. She was not focused and her hangups were bothering her. I would have called it , but she kept saying she was close. She actually suggested getting the vibrator out, but even that didn't work. It was a complete mental block. I tried to get her to let me go down on her because she can focus and it's the easiest way to make her come. She didn't want me to because things were "messy." I could give a **** less and she knows it. I tried to be forceful about it in the hopes that she would just let go and enjoy herself. It actually upset her - hard stop. Her feelings were hurt because I wasn't listening to her and accepting her boundary (even though this boundary is a moving target). 

Two things would have happened before. She would have been upset for a good while. She would have felt disrespected as well as frustrated that we had yet another point of division related to sex. She would have used it as confirmation that all I want is sex and that it will never be good enough for me. And I would have taken it as confirmation that we were sexually incompatible and embarked in a proper sulk, questioning our entire relationship. 

Instead, we regrouped and apologized. We talked about what went wrong, calmly. We ended up having more sex and got there. We salvaged it. Then we followed it up the next day with a much better session. There was zero time spent in that death spiral that was previously way too common. The cycle we had was like a ship taking heavy fire. We couldn't find enough peaceful waters to repair the vessel as it was always under siege. Now we have an occasional battle but the vast majority is smooth sailing. It's way healthier. 


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Excellent insight Rich! You may be our future Mem! lol

Seriously, you have grown a great deal since your first posts. You clearly became the man your wife did not want to lose. 

I think it is great that you are accepting of how much your wife has grown too - even though it may not be as far as you really wanted at one time. I think you have been successful in part because you recognize that you both have to compromise and that what really counts in the end is that both spouses feel that the other is trying and making concrete efforts out of love and a desire for their spouse to be happy in the relationship too. I think it is important to also note that you were successful because your wife has been willing to do her part too. No matter what you changed - if your spouse was not willing to also change - you would not be where you are now. 

What do you think was the biggest catalyst in motivating her to work with you in making changes?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

mary35 said:


> Excellent insight Rich! You may be our future Mem! lol
> 
> Seriously, you have grown a great deal since your first posts. You clearly became the man your wife did not want to lose.
> 
> ...




Mem helped me quite a bit. He stayed in there to give me insights when I was thrashing about. I sent him a PM later thanking him. There were others. It's not like I solved it completely, but I learned some great lessons. I re-read the thread every once and a while and my early posts were desperate, out of control. I feel like I'm in control of my destiny now. I have the power to drive a better outcome. 

I can accept effort towards the goal. What I couldn't accept was resignation from her. She said several times that this was it, that this was all the effort she was willing to give. That if I wanted more, I would have to leave her and go find it. It might have been a **** test. Either way, I didn't believe her. Rather, I believed more in her than she did. There were times, due to her reinforcement of the point, that I started to take her at her word - I nearly pulled the trigger on divorce. But she dug deeper when push came to shove. That is sexy as hell. Seeing her make changes to make it work lit up a passion in me. That's my girl. 




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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

rich84 said:


> I think over time she had trained me to initiate weakly. Rejection has a way of doing that. Kind of like testing to see if the iron is still hot. You're not going to just grab the thing. But that's more of a turn on. Specifically, I took too much time, in too soft of a way, to get things going. In my mind I was trying to get her aroused before we jumped in, but to her it must have been lame and taking too long, and she probably just wanted it to be over to be honest. Her drive was really low. I think she was less sexually responsive to me. She was so fixated on her hangups that she often couldn't get in the mindset for arousal. She limited foreplay like oral for her that might have helped. It was all bad.
> 
> The times that we did have really good sex were when I was frustrated and probably selfish. Ripped her panties down, kissed her hard, manually stimulated her, got to business quickly, etc. Just rougher. This sounds horrible, but one time she actually asked me what I was doing. She was frustrated that I was pawing around and not progressing. It was an eye opener. For me, I would like to have a response, a go ahead. Not consent per se (as that was clearly implied), but reciprocity of excitement/passion - that gets me going where I can be more free to just go for it. But she often showed very little enthusiasm. It's hard to put a high level of enthusiasm into someone that isn't matching that level of intensity. Hence, the weak starts. Stopping that behavior played a role, for sure. Confidence is sexy.
> 
> ...


This is a great illustration of two people who want it to work, and communicate to facilitate it working. Good stuff, brother.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

rich84 said:


> Mem helped me quite a bit. He stayed in there to give me insights when I was thrashing about. I sent him a PM later thanking him. There were others. It's not like I solved it completely, but I learned some great lessons. I re-read the thread every once and a while and my early posts were desperate, out of control. I feel like I'm in control of my destiny now. I have the power to drive a better outcome.
> 
> I can accept effort towards the goal. What I couldn't accept was resignation from her. She said several times that this was it, that this was all the effort she was willing to give. That if I wanted more, I would have to leave her and go find it. It might have been a **** test. Either way, I didn't believe her. Rather, I believed more in her than she did. There were times, due to her reinforcement of the point, that I started to take her at her word - I nearly pulled the trigger on divorce. But she dug deeper when push came to shove. That is sexy as hell. Seeing her make changes to make it work lit up a passion in me. That's my girl.
> 
> ...


The moment you realize you have influence is the moment divorce is not on the table any longer.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

If you have influence - its because your spouse cares enough about you and the marriage to change.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rich,
Congratulations. Smart and determined make a good combo.

Nothing beats spontaneity. Still - it's nice to have a plan for handling 'rapture-block'.

While passion and aggression are great - it's a total power move to be able to slip into 'all about you mode' in the heat of mating.

That might look something like this: 
- Hey - relax - this happens to everyone now and then (subtext: you are normal, not broken)
- Give her a moment to respond and then
- What would you like to have happen next (unless her body language has already made that clear)

A little humor helps. I've had M2 respond to that sequence with - don't you want me?

I just laugh, point down to my hard (little) head and say: want - hell yes
Then point to my farhead and say: need? - No (while shaking my head to reinforce the no)

The full conflicted truth in 3 words. 





rich84 said:


> Mem helped me quite a bit. He stayed in there to give me insights when I was thrashing about. I sent him a PM later thanking him. There were others. It's not like I solved it completely, but I learned some great lessons. I re-read the thread every once and a while and my early posts were desperate, out of control. I feel like I'm in control of my destiny now. I have the power to drive a better outcome.
> 
> I can accept effort towards the goal. What I couldn't accept was resignation from her. She said several times that this was it, that this was all the effort she was willing to give. That if I wanted more, I would have to leave her and go find it. It might have been a **** test. Either way, I didn't believe her. Rather, I believed more in her than she did. There were times, due to her reinforcement of the point, that I started to take her at her word - I nearly pulled the trigger on divorce. But she dug deeper when push came to shove. That is sexy as hell. Seeing her make changes to make it work lit up a passion in me. That's my girl.
> 
> ...


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