# She said "w/a man I don't love"



## bagdon

I confess, I read my wife's diary. I wished I hadn't. Our 15th anniversary was May 16th; for over a month now I have made a concerted effort to do my part in making our marriage better. On Monday, June 3rd I read a portion of her diary that stated "w/a man I don't love." I'm devastated! What, if anything, can I do now? I want our marriage to survive and thrive. I wish I hadn't read it.


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## Thumper

Man, im sorry your here, that's like a hot dagger to the heart. 

First you need to find out what your doing, in her eyes, wrong. And get it addressed ASAP, she's disconnected from the marriage.

theres a couple of books you can read, 2 different approaches

1st is: Divorce Busting: A Step-By-Step Approach to Making Your Marriage Loving Again by Michele Weiner-Davis | Barnes & Noble

or you can try the opposite approach:Winning Your Wife Back Before It's Too Late: Whether She's Left Physically or Emotionally, All that Matters is? by Gary Smalley | 9781418578442 | NOOK Book (eBook) | Barnes & Noble

I'm not gonna lie, you have a LOT of work ahead of you. first you need to stay calm, and don't let her know anything at all. second you need to be REALLY patient. This is gonna take some time if theres a chance to fix it.

Do you help around the house (dishes, laundry, kids, cooking), do you think she thinks you help her enough, not what you think but what she thinks.

Has she been giving you warning signs? Are you attentive to her? Take her out, take her to the movies, dancing, a walk around the block? What are you doing with her to make her feel wanted.

Are you overweight, high maintenance, negative, complaining a lot, lazy, judgemental, verbally abusive, physically abusive?

Be honest in your own assessment as that will be the only things you can do to fix your half of the situation.

If she talks to you, LISTEN to what she has to say, don't judge, devalue, rug sweep, or heck even talk much, just let her vent, she will tell you whats wrong if your listening to her.

Good luck, feel free to come back for tips/advice or if you just need to vent (don't vent on her). STAY strong, under control, and don't force issues right now. You might only get one chance to save your marriage.


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## EleGirl

Some other good books are "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters".

The books that Thumper suggested are good ones as well. Read all of them. The advice they all give works well together.

Over the last few years, how many hours a week do you and your wife spend doing things together that you both enjoy, just the two of you together?


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## Hortensia

15 years "with a man I don't love"? Sorry you're in this heartbreaking position. If I were you, I'd sit her down and confess I read the diary. Ask her honestly if she has ever loved you at all. If not, then the marriage is a big lie, unfortunately. If yes, ask her what made her fall out of love with you and what you can do to re-ignite the spark. See if she is willing to work on that with you.
Do not scream, do not lament, do not blame or beg when you talk to her. It is not a confrontation, but an honest talk. Prepare for whatever answer. 
I hope she still has some feelings for you, otherwise do you really want to stay married to someone who doesn't love you?


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## Thumper

in my humble opinion, its too early to let her know you read it. She's gonna be very upset, is gonna think your checking on her (which you are), you can throw out what little trust you might have left, and she might think this effort your about to make is just fluff to get her back in your corner, which you will need to understand all the above reading is about CHANGING your habits FOREVER, not a temp fix.

If she's already admitted she doesn't love you, but you are still in the house, then you get to attack the situation and she gets to notice your changes. If the diary thing gets out, she might just ask you to leave, she still might without her finding out, but she will never see your changes if you living with your parents/friend or in your own apartment.

Its a difficult time for you right now, but for her also. If your working your program/steps. There will be a time to sit down and get it all out. (Myself- I don't think i'd EVER tell her I read it) but don't do it again !!!!!

That's just my 2 cents.


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## Plan 9 from OS

I don't journal or have a diary, but isn't it possible that your wife simply did not feel love for you on that specific day? I think many people use a diary as a way to process raw, undirected feelings in order to help the writer feel better. Everything you are reading so far are just guesses since you provided very little info to go on. First order of business, do you think you have a good marriage - prior to reading the diary? If yes, does your wife communicate to you about her thoughts and feelings or does she keep everything in? Before you jump to conclusions, you should answer those questions for yourself.


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## bagdon

Thumper said:


> in my humble opinion, its too early to let her know you read it. She's gonna be very upset, is gonna think your checking on her (which you are), you can throw out what little trust you might have left, and she might think this effort your about to make is just fluff to get her back in your corner, which you will need to understand all the above reading is about CHANGING your habits FOREVER, not a temp fix.
> 
> If she's already admitted she doesn't love you, but you are still in the house, then you get to attack the situation and she gets to notice your changes. If the diary thing gets out, she might just ask you to leave, she still might without her finding out, but she will never see your changes if you living with your parents/friend or in your own apartment.
> 
> Its a difficult time for you right now, but for her also. If your working your program/steps. There will be a time to sit down and get it all out. (Myself- I don't think i'd EVER tell her I read it) but don't do it again !!!!!
> 
> That's just my 2 cents.


I agree, I don't think I'll ever tell her I read it; it's not something I'm proud of. I have only read it twice and both times I regretted it. I've been working on my marriage for some years now (at least 5) and it hasn't been easy. We have 3 kids; all almost teenagers now. We took a hard hit when the recession hit back in 2008/9...now we're living in a small old house that belongs to my mom. (They are like oil and water) my mom lives in a house next door. We rarely have sex ( unless I practically beg for it) and her body language and responses tell me she doesn't feel the same. She really wants to move and is constantly searching for homes but I know it will be detrimental to our finical future if we try to finance a house now. She doesn't see it that way. I went to 5:00am prayer this morning at my church asking God what to do. The minister in my church spoke to me (after hearing my prayer) and suggested I have a conversation with her about what she really wants and get behind her on it.


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## Thumper

Ok if im LISTENING to what she's saying here with the house:

She'd rather be struggling financially and be happy that be next to your mom and be REALLY unhappy. You need to then sit down with her and figure out a compromise. Say, ok honey, lets give this 3, or 6 months, save every penny, then attempt to move then. You need to allow her to have a say, to have a voice. The compromise shows your listening to her. 

What do you want? Are you willing to live the status quo, if your going to save your marriage, your going to have to risk it all to save it. I think you'd be more happy if she was more happy anyways. Change is not easy, but either is keeping it the same, if the same is not working.


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## lifeistooshort

I agree that you shouldn't tell her you read it. Diaries are for private thoughts and if she's already detached from you the violation she's going to feel may send her over the edge in this marriage. You really need to sit down with her and have a long talk about how she feels in this marriage and what she needs. In it's current state it's not working for her, she doesn't feel she's getting anything out of it. So your financial future takes a hit, so what? Discuss that with her and include her in a discussion about the sacrifices and how to pull it off. What's it worth to you? If you end up divorced your financial future will take a hit too, and you'll be divorced. And STOP reading her diary!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor

5 Love Languages is a quick easy book to start with. Every person should read it, it's that good.

I think you should approach your wife with a generic request to work together to rebuild the marriage. Relationships can get stale over time as real life puts demands on our time, such as work, kids, hobbies, siblings/parents with problems, etc. So you want to get back some of the spark you two used to have. Your recent landmark anniversary is a good excuse for you reviewing in your mind the state of your marriage and having come to the conclusion you want to improve it.

Perhaps even suggest to her a few marriage counseling sessions to get a "tune-up", though I think at first it is premature to suggest this. You might on the other hand get value out of going by yourself to a marriage therapist to get some expert outside opinions. Your work probably offers the EAP program which is a free, *confidential* counseling program for exactly your kind of situation. You get about 6 sessions (varies by state) with a therapist. Your employer will never know you went to EAP. 

A good self-help book is "Getting the Love You Want" and the workbook which goes with it. The other books mentioned in the thread are also well regarded for rebuilding emotional intimacy in marriages.

Some men get a lot of personal growth out of books such as "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and "Married Man's Sex Life Primer". These are self improvement books, not marriage fixing books. But when you strengthen yourself you will be a much healthier partner in a marriage. So take a look and see if you think the material in those might apply to you.


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## KathyBatesel

Bagdon, what happens with your marriage? You said you've been working on it for five years. Is that all because of the financial hits you took in the time frame you mentioned? 

Are you working? Just how bad would it be financially to move? 

What she wrote in her diary might or might not be accurate. Even when we think we feel that way, we often find that we've misjudged if something happens that takes the person from us. She hasn't left yet, so that's a sign in your favor.


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## bagdon

Thumper said:


> Ok if im LISTENING to what she's saying here with the house:
> 
> She'd rather be struggling financially and be happy that be next to your mom and be REALLY unhappy. You need to then sit down with her and figure out a compromise. Say, ok honey, lets give this 3, or 6 months, save every penny, then attempt to move then. You need to allow her to have a say, to have a voice. The compromise shows your listening to her.
> 
> What do you want? Are you willing to live the status quo, if your going to save your marriage, your going to have to risk it all to save it. I think you'd be more happy if she was more happy anyways. Change is not easy, but either is keeping it the same, if the same is not working.


The problem with that is we lived nine hours away from my mom 3 years earlier and were in terrible,marriage, shape then. She stopped wearing her wedding ring for a while during that time. she wears it now but i think she does that just to keep me quiet judging from what I read in her diary. I hope I'm making this worse than it is but I've made that mistake before, thinking it wasn't as bad as it was (I woke up when she stopped wearing her ring)


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## Thumper

Well the difference between then and now? YOU, and your willingness to address your marriage. You have to start somewhere to rebuild/repair your marriage. The only thing about the past that you need to keep in mind, is the mistakes, use them to structure change in your life. It sounds like your willing to address those issues in yourself, now you need to learn how to apply them in your marriage. They cant fix themselves. Maybe even if you get this figured out, you will have a better understanding of it all, and prevent it from getting there again.

I hope things truly work out for you, its not gonna be easy, and its gonna take some time, Patience is your best friend right now.


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## bagdon

KathyBatesel said:


> Bagdon, what happens with your marriage? You said you've been working on it for five years. Is that all because of the financial hits you took in the time frame you mentioned?
> 
> Are you working? Just how bad would it be financially to move?
> 
> What she wrote in her diary might or might not be accurate. Even when we think we feel that way, we often find that we've misjudged if something happens that takes the person from us. She hasn't left yet, so that's a sign in your favor.


Your statement gives me hope Kathy. Thanks. She use to make a lot more money than I did. she has been unemployed before during and after the recession. That has indeed put a strain on things but I make enough in our situation now to cover the basic needs and put away a little. She is employed now but not full time. I am very _practical_ about money where as, IMO, she is more _emotional_ about money. I love the woman and don't think I made a mistake when I married her so it really hurts that she would write something like that.


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## KathyBatesel

^ this makes it sound like maybe she's projecting her frustration at herself onto you. She doesn't feel like she's living up to her potential, and she might feel like she doesn't have a clear purpose for her life. 

Is she happy with her work? What would she like to do differently? How could you support her with that?


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## bagdon

KathyBatesel said:


> ^ this makes it sound like maybe she's projecting her frustration at herself onto you. She doesn't feel like she's living up to her potential, and she might feel like she doesn't have a clear purpose for her life.
> 
> Is she happy with her work? What would she like to do differently? How could you support her with that?


She started as an attourney but her heart was never in it. Her true passion is writing and she is a published author. We invested in her writing but our funds are limited toward that. She would tell me how depressed she was being home all day. I made the mistake years ago of venting our financial frustrations out on her and she never forgot that. There are a few things she would recall about me that she felt slighted. Also about 4 years into our marriage her mother was killed in a freak car accident. I think that was the beginning of noticeable turmoil for us. It's complicated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Emerald

Agree. Don't tell her you read the diary because her actions match her words.

The good news is you have a chance to save your marriage. Read all the books suggested.

The recession has put horrific strains on marriages, families & people. Your wife is very unhappy about your living situation & misses her "old" life & losing her Mother......you see she has taken too many "hits" & maybe "blaming" you because it is convenient & easy to do.....very sad.

Also do some research on walk-away-wives. Usually, these wives (I was one) although want to, don't "walk-away" for years but think about it & plan it quietly in their heads.

Then when we walk-away, our husbands are "shocked" because they had no idea we were so unhappy despite many of us either saying it and/or showing it by our actions towards our husbands.

Please do everything & anything to save your marriage & keep your family intact. Your wife can fall in love with you again.


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## bagdon

Emerald said:


> Agree. Don't tell her you read the diary because her actions match her words.
> 
> The good news is you have a chance to save your marriage. Read all the books suggested.
> 
> The recession has put horrific strains on marriages, families & people. Your wife is very unhappy about your living situation & misses her "old" life & losing her Mother......you see she has taken too many "hits" & maybe "blaming" you because it is convenient & easy to do.....very sad.
> 
> Also do some research on walk-away-wives. Usually, these wives (I was one) although want to, don't "walk-away" for years but think about it & plan it quietly in their heads.
> 
> Then when we walk-away, our husbands are "shocked" because they had no idea we were so unhappy despite many of us either saying it and/or showing it by our actions towards our husbands.
> 
> Please do everything & anything to save your marriage & keep your family intact. Your wife can fall in love with you again.


Thank you Emerald, she has said things that make me believe she's planning her "escape". The diary made it clear. It's good to know,coming from you, that she can possibly love me again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyBatesel

bagdon said:


> She started as an attourney but her heart was never in it. Her true passion is writing and she is a published author. We invested in her writing but our funds are limited toward that. She would tell me how depressed she was being home all day. I made the mistake years ago of venting our financial frustrations out on her and she never forgot that. There are a few things she would recall about me that she felt slighted. Also about 4 years into our marriage her mother was killed in a freak car accident. I think that was the beginning of noticeable turmoil for us. It's complicated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


While this is good information, it doesn't really answer what I asked. Does she feel she has a purpose in life? She may feel passionate about writing, but why, especially if he hates being alone all day? What prevents her from taking a part-time paralegal job or setting up a part time consulting business for people who are handling their legal cases pro-bono? It would alleviate financial burdens, keep her from being bored at home, give her an important purpose (helping people help themselves), and still leave her time to write.


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## bagdon

KathyBatesel said:


> While this is good information, it doesn't really answer what I asked. Does she feel she has a purpose in life? She may feel passionate about writing, but why, especially if he hates being alone all day? What prevents her from taking a part-time paralegal job or setting up a part time consulting business for people who are handling their legal cases pro-bono? It would alleviate financial burdens, keep her from being bored at home, give her an important purpose (helping people help themselves), and still leave her time to write.


She seems very happy with writing now that she is a published author. She's very active with a few writer's organizations in the area and she is active in our church. Not enough money, even though a respectable amount, has come from her first book. I think she's banking on a windfall of money from her second release which she is currently working on. She most definitely does consulting and has done a few cases; she also helped some foreign teachers get their legal stuff together to stay in the US; she worked as an aide at one of the local elementary schools this year. I know for sure that she doesn't respect or forgive me for past wrongs she perceives from me. She loves our children and is a great mother. We had our first child 9 months after our wedding day so we have hardly ever been just a married couple living together and learning one another. After dating it's been us and the children. So I haven't had much practice being a romantic husband and such... I'm trying now but I'm very clumsy at it; hard to do when she rejects me....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyBatesel

What past wrongs does she blame you for?


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## FormerSelf

I am going to say tis quickly, but you need to get the attention off of her...I know you are relying as her emotions and feelings as a marital thermometer now...and you are going to want to tweak things to manipulate her to getting comfortable again or happy again...but you can't do that.
I bet if you think about...there are probably lots of instances where she tried to tell you what she needed. But like most guys we do what we can to appease them and then later we get "shocked" that they are miserable again. The truth is that they never stopped being miserable...they just stopped telling us because it is a waste of breath and it kills them to hope for certain things that never come. Which brings us to the question: WHAT THE HELL DOES SHE WANT THEN?! I think the answer to her question is how you answer your own questions about yourself. What do YOU want? What is our vision for your family? Have you spent much time talking with her about your dreams or your plans...and then shown her in action? If she already had a career, bailed on it to write books instead of a transition, is emotional with her spending...this shows me that she is impulsive and lacks emotional maturity. I know you felt like you hurt her when you described her decisions as causing financial havoc...but isn't that what she did? Is she the sort of person who can't be held accountable for her choices, doesn't want to face consequences...and then is ultimately holding YOU responsible for your living situation? While circumstances may exacerbate the strain on your marriage...it sounds like you need to step back from the situation, and instead of trying to fix all of the leaks to show your value and usefulness to her...you ought to raise and display your value, by acting as someone with worth and value...and not hang on her every word or teenage complaint in her diary. These things no longer have power over you...'cos you are going to to cut your own path...make your own way...tap into your own strength...and cast visions and make plans. 
If your wife is in a place as mine was...then she is probably planning her exit when she can financially support herself and can decide what she wants to do regarding your kids. Women plan...they make strategies when they are unhappy, because they fear being like that forever and that is scary and it feels like dying, and they don't want to die, so they trip into survival mode...make some pretty extreme calls to save themselves...but all we see evidence of is: what? you want to leave me for this reason? 
What can possibly shake her from this track is for you to start making your presence known in the family. That you are setting the pace...planning the strategy...and then standing by your integrity to see it through. You MUST make goals in all areas of your life....financially, spiritually, physically...all in a simplified way...invite her to join ou. If she declines then don't wait for her (this is important)...start making progress toward you goals...not just sighing and pining for her to accompany you. NO...she needs to see something REAL, involving no bullstuff, no appeasing words...just action. Don't mention what you read in her diary. Put it out of our head. Just burn it in your mind...and use it as fuel for changing your life...not to suit her needs but to SUIt YOURS!!! So if she does bail, then you have a whole new life and outlook ahead of you. If hope returns to her in what she sees...then she will come to join you...and this I believe is what a lot of women wish for. NO MORE puttng your dreams on hold because your wife may have some more apparent skill. I went down that road...and the second she was able o...she was gone...and they will never take into account how much you stood by and supported them before their success. DON'T feed that nasty ego of theirs by acting like a lesser...act like you are a man on a mission...with everyday filled with intentional purpose toward your long term goal. AND NEVER AGAIN ARE YOU ALLOWED TO BEG FOR SEX!!!! You will come off to needy and that repulses women like no other!!! Start living like you need nothing from her...that you have a new outlook on life...that you had a flippin epiphany and you are gonna start changing some stuff...that you want a good life, a passionate sexual life...and you are no longer ACCEPTING mediocre handouts or pity-F***s...that you deserve better and you will have better...and of she doesn;t want to provide that and be a part of that...then she is free to move on...'cos you want a wife that is going to join you on your new adventure. Be that. Believe that. This is what is in your head playing over and over...and you do this without saying a word...but if she confronts you on why you are acting different or stange...then be prepared with something to say to that effect. I f you want different, the you gotta do different...and sometimes you gotta tell her, "Pull up your big girl pants...we made this choice, so this is where we are. I know it's tough our situation, but I am done hearing you complain and ***** about it and making ME pay for your unhappiness."


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## bagdon

FormerSelf said:


> I am going to say tis quickly, but you need to get the attention off of her...I know you are relying as her emotions and feelings as a marital thermometer now...and you are going to want to tweak things to manipulate her to getting comfortable again or happy again...but you can't do that.
> I bet if you think about...there are probably lots of instances where she tried to tell you what she needed. But like most guys we do what we can to appease them and then later we get "shocked" that they are miserable again. The truth is that they never stopped being miserable...they just stopped telling us because it is a waste of breath and it kills them to hope for certain things that never come. Which brings us to the question: WHAT THE HELL DOES SHE WANT THEN?! I think the answer to her question is how you answer your own questions about yourself. What do YOU want? What is our vision for your family? Have you spent much time talking with her about your dreams or your plans...and then shown her in action? If she already had a career, bailed on it to write books instead of a transition, is emotional with her spending...this shows me that she is impulsive and lacks emotional maturity. I know you felt like you hurt her when you described her decisions as causing financial havoc...but isn't that what she did? Is she the sort of person who can't be held accountable for her choices, doesn't want to face consequences...and then is ultimately holding YOU responsible for your living situation? While circumstances may exacerbate the strain on your marriage...it sounds like you need to step back from the situation, and instead of trying to fix all of the leaks to show your value and usefulness to her...you ought to raise and display your value, by acting as someone with worth and value...and not hang on her every word or teenage complaint in her diary. These things no longer have power over you...'cos you are going to to cut your own path...make your own way...tap into your own strength...and cast visions and make plans.
> If your wife is in a place as mine was...then she is probably planning her exit when she can financially support herself and can decide what she wants to do regarding your kids. Women plan...they make strategies when they are unhappy, because they fear being like that forever and that is scary and it feels like dying, and they don't want to die, so they trip into survival mode...make some pretty extreme calls to save themselves...but all we see evidence of is: what? you want to leave me for this reason?
> What can possibly shake her from this track is for you to start making your presence known in the family. That you are setting the pace...planning the strategy...and then standing by your integrity to see it through. You MUST make goals in all areas of your life....financially, spiritually, physically...all in a simplified way...invite her to join ou. If she declines then don't wait for her (this is important)...start making progress toward you goals...not just sighing and pining for her to accompany you. NO...she needs to see something REAL, involving no bullstuff, no appeasing words...just action. Don't mention what you read in her diary. Put it out of our head. Just burn it in your mind...and use it as fuel for changing your life...not to suit her needs but to SUIt YOURS!!! So if she does bail, then you have a whole new life and outlook ahead of you. If hope returns to her in what she sees...then she will come to join you...and this I believe is what a lot of women wish for. NO MORE puttng your dreams on hold because your wife may have some more apparent skill. I went down that road...and the second she was able o...she was gone...and they will never take into account how much you stood by and supported them before their success. DON'T feed that nasty ego of theirs by acting like a lesser...act like you are a man on a mission...with everyday filled with intentional purpose toward your long term goal. AND NEVER AGAIN ARE YOU ALLOWED TO BEG FOR SEX!!!! You will come off to needy and that repulses women like no other!!! Start living like you need nothing from her...that you have a new outlook on life...that you had a flippin epiphany and you are gonna start changing some stuff...that you want a good life, a passionate sexual life...and you are no longer ACCEPTING mediocre handouts or pity-F***s...that you deserve better and you will have better...and of she doesn;t want to provide that and be a part of that...then she is free to move on...'cos you want a wife that is going to join you on your new adventure. Be that. Believe that. This is what is in your head playing over and over...and you do this without saying a word...but if she confronts you on why you are acting different or stange...then be prepared with something to say to that effect. I f you want different, the you gotta do different...and sometimes you gotta tell her, "Pull up your big girl pants...we made this choice, so this is where we are. I know it's tough our situation, but I am done hearing you complain and ***** about it and making ME pay for your unhappiness."


Bravo! I think I'm on that path now. I'll confess again that last night I went back and read her whole diary from September of last year to now... I had to... and my fears were confirmed to stark reality that she is indeed planning to leave as soon as she is financially able; I already knew how unhappy she was but to see it in writing was almost unbearable. It's as if she didn't care if I read it the way she left it right on top of her night stand. I can tell she doesn't know that "I KNOW" now. It lit a fire in me and I am certainly on a vision mission.


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## BjornFree

Read this book:Married man Sex life Primer
in addition to the books suggested it might help you in your next relationship if this one fails. Its got some practical advice.


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## KathyBatesel

bagdon said:


> Bravo! I think I'm on that path now. I'll confess again that last night I went back and read her whole diary from September of last year to now... I had to... and my fears were confirmed to stark reality that she is indeed planning to leave as soon as she is financially able; I already knew how unhappy she was but to see it in writing was almost unbearable. It's as if she didn't care if I read it the way she left it right on top of her night stand. I can tell she doesn't know that "I KNOW" now. It lit a fire in me and I am certainly on a vision mission.


If you are certain she's planning to leave and you're hoping the relationship recovers, boot her out now. It might force enough of a crisis for her to come around if she's alone AND financially unstable. If money is her only hesitation, then if you wait till she has it she won't look back once she walks out that door. Make her appreciate the benefits you provide.

You didn't answer about the nature of "past wrongs" she blames you for.


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## Thumper

Oh man if you read her diary and she's been planning to leave you as soon as she can financially make it viable?? THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!!!!

You have a walk away wife..........there is only one thing you can do and you must to it RIGHT NOW. Start the 180 immediately.

She's rewriting martial history right now, further justifying her reasons to leave. There is NOTHING you can do right now but cause MORE damage. If you want this to work, your basically going to have to go dark, give her all the time and space she needs NOW. She knows your going to be her little life plan B. 

You need to act like you think the marriage is over, and act like you've decided to just move on. Any other route will only push her away further/faster. There is no mystery, she's got you completely pegged. Change that!!!


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## Thumper

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-mid-life-crisis-walk-away-wife-syndrome.html


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/34241-she-just-walked-out-me.html


Read these 2 theads, while theres still time, you need to change your game plan now. She's in a fog, wants to see if life itself is greener. Only when your able to really disconnect yourself, will she see things differently. And she might decide, she doesn't care if the grass is greener or not, she's moving on. So you need to flips the table now.


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## bagdon

When we married i never thought this would happen to us. I need help...I think I'm falling into depression; I can't sleep, can't concentrate, I want to cry but can't. sometimes I feel a little sick. How do I get help for this?


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## bagdon

Thumper said:


> Oh man if you read her diary and she's been planning to leave you as soon as she can financially make it viable?? THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!!!!
> 
> You have a walk away wife..........there is only one thing you can do and you must to it RIGHT NOW. Start the 180 immediately.
> 
> She's rewriting martial history right now, further justifying her reasons to leave. There is NOTHING you can do right now but cause MORE damage. If you want this to work, your basically going to have to go dark, give her all the time and space she needs NOW. She knows your going to be her little life plan B.
> 
> You need to act like you think the marriage is over, and act like you've decided to just move on. Any other route will only push her away further/faster. There is no mystery, she's got you completely pegged. Change that!!!


I just tested your theory and told her I wanted to talk with her about plans i had to turn our lives around together ( don't really have a plan yet) the look on her face said it all even though she agreed to talk....think I just pushed her away further. I'm going dark. so I shouldn't say another word to her about it? should I cancel a date I proposed to her a week ago? say something came up?


----------



## Thumper

You have to remember..........patience. Also, remember that losing control is only gonna make the situation worse. You need to put on the show, you and I both know its gonna be a façade, but she wont. Walking around moping, depressed, upset is NOT what you want her to see right now. If you need to, since your still in the house, take a walk around the block. Do you have a close friend or support system that you can talk with?

Let me tell you, I know exactly how you feel, my wife is a WAW, its been going on 5 months now, it does get easier, but it takes time. I will also tell you my wife said she was DONE DONE DONE. I started the 180, and guess what, she's calling me know, she's asking for MC. DO NOT PANIC, this is far from over, but if you let your mind go there, your body/mind/actions will follow. You need to spin EVERYTHING INTO A POSITIVE right now, and yes I know how hard that is to do.

You need to put a plan down in your mind, believe none of what you see, and 50% of what you hear right now. Make sure you eat, and get your sleep. Hit the store and buy a bottle of Melatonin, take a couple before bedtime, it will help you sleep. Get into some IC as soon as you can. 

Right now, your letting your mind take over, read, study, remember the 180. Learn it, live it!! Try like he!! to implement it into your life, if you fall off, start it right back up. NO MATTER WHAT, do not take any of whats coming personal, its NOT. She's gonna be rewriting the marriage to try to justify things in her mind, but in her mind she thinks nothing is wrong with that. You are going to wait this out. Your going to beat yourself up. DONT. Just think of it like someone kidnapped your wife, replaced her with this double, and you have to wait till they bring her back.


----------



## bagdon

Man! I gotta get it together...I feel so unsure of myself. Now I gotta really let go in my heart and walk away; that's going to be hard. My poor children...


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## bagdon

Thumper said:


> You have to remember..........patience. Also, remember that losing control is only gonna make the situation worse. You need to put on the show, you and I both know its gonna be a façade, but she wont. Walking around moping, depressed, upset is NOT what you want her to see right now. If you need to, since your still in the house, take a walk around the block. Do you have a close friend or support system that you can talk with?
> 
> Let me tell you, I know exactly how you feel, my wife is a WAW, its been going on 5 months now, it does get easier, but it takes time. I will also tell you my wife said she was DONE DONE DONE. I started the 180, and guess what, she's calling me know, she's asking for MC. DO NOT PANIC, this is far from over, but if you let your mind go there, your body/mind/actions will follow. You need to spin EVERYTHING INTO A POSITIVE right now, and yes I know how hard that is to do.
> 
> You need to put a plan down in your mind, believe none of what you see, and 50% of what you hear right now. Make sure you eat, and get your sleep. Hit the store and buy a bottle of Melatonin, take a couple before bedtime, it will help you sleep. Get into some IC as soon as you can.
> 
> Right now, your letting your mind take over, read, study, remember the 180. Learn it, live it!! Try like he!! to implement it into your life, if you fall off, start it right back up. NO MATTER WHAT, do not take any of whats coming personal, its NOT. She's gonna be rewriting the marriage to try to justify things in her mind, but in her mind she thinks nothing is wrong with that. You are going to wait this out. Your going to beat yourself up. DONT. Just think of it like someone kidnapped your wife, replaced her with this double, and you have to wait till they bring her back.


Thanks! I needed to hear that and I feel better now.


----------



## bagdon

Thumper said:


> You have to remember..........patience. Also, remember that losing control is only gonna make the situation worse. You need to put on the show, you and I both know its gonna be a façade, but she wont. Walking around moping, depressed, upset is NOT what you want her to see right now. If you need to, since your still in the house, take a walk around the block. Do you have a close friend or support system that you can talk with?
> 
> Let me tell you, I know exactly how you feel, my wife is a WAW, its been going on 5 months now, it does get easier, but it takes time. I will also tell you my wife said she was DONE DONE DONE. I started the 180, and guess what, she's calling me know, she's asking for MC. DO NOT PANIC, this is far from over, but if you let your mind go there, your body/mind/actions will follow. You need to spin EVERYTHING INTO A POSITIVE right now, and yes I know how hard that is to do.
> 
> You need to put a plan down in your mind, believe none of what you see, and 50% of what you hear right now. Make sure you eat, and get your sleep. Hit the store and buy a bottle of Melatonin, take a couple before bedtime, it will help you sleep. Get into some IC as soon as you can.
> 
> Right now, your letting your mind take over, read, study, remember the 180. Learn it, live it!! Try like he!! to implement it into your life, if you fall off, start it right back up. NO MATTER WHAT, do not take any of whats coming personal, its NOT. She's gonna be rewriting the marriage to try to justify things in her mind, but in her mind she thinks nothing is wrong with that. You are going to wait this out. Your going to beat yourself up. DONT. Just think of it like someone kidnapped your wife, replaced her with this double, and you have to wait till they bring her back.


Is there a 180 manual or something? where do I find it?


----------



## anchorwatch

Sorry you in this situation. Here's the 180

180 List - No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group

You've got a lot of reading and work to do. Remind yourself, it took quite sometime to get where you are now. The effort to get yourself and marriage back on track will take time too. Also, the outcome can not be predicted. You can only control your actions, not her's. Work on making you better.

Good luck

BTW, Welcome


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## bagdon

Thumper said:


> You have to remember..........patience. Also, remember that losing control is only gonna make the situation worse. You need to put on the show, you and I both know its gonna be a façade, but she wont. Walking around moping, depressed, upset is NOT what you want her to see right now. If you need to, since your still in the house, take a walk around the block. Do you have a close friend or support system that you can talk with?
> 
> Let me tell you, I know exactly how you feel, my wife is a WAW, its been going on 5 months now, it does get easier, but it takes time. I will also tell you my wife said she was DONE DONE DONE. I started the 180, and guess what, she's calling me know, she's asking for MC. DO NOT PANIC, this is far from over, but if you let your mind go there, your body/mind/actions will follow. You need to spin EVERYTHING INTO A POSITIVE right now, and yes I know how hard that is to do.
> 
> You need to put a plan down in your mind, believe none of what you see, and 50% of what you hear right now. Make sure you eat, and get your sleep. Hit the store and buy a bottle of Melatonin, take a couple before bedtime, it will help you sleep. Get into some IC as soon as you can.
> 
> Right now, your letting your mind take over, read, study, remember the 180. Learn it, live it!! Try like he!! to implement it into your life, if you fall off, start it right back up. NO MATTER WHAT, do not take any of whats coming personal, its NOT. She's gonna be rewriting the marriage to try to justify things in her mind, but in her mind she thinks nothing is wrong with that. You are going to wait this out. Your going to beat yourself up. DONT. Just think of it like someone kidnapped your wife, replaced her with this double, and you have to wait till they bring her back.


Okay, the 180 looks doable but we have three young kids in the mix. Any advice on how to navigate that?


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## bagdon

I really appreciate the help everyone. Thank you! I'll keep you posted.


----------



## FormerSelf

yeah...really soak in the 180 material...because right now you are going to feel like you are in relational withdrawal...as you are putting a halt to your typical behaviors that has been pushing her away. Basically, you have been doing everything that feels emotionally crowing to her. Spouses, if they already feel claustrophobic in the marriage, become acutely sensitive to needy behavior...they intensely HATE it...and many in fact had pursued affairs just to blow it all to hell because of how trapped they feel in this. James Dobsen in Love Must Be Tough compares it to trying to suppress laughter in an inappropriate setting (in court, church, classroom)...and the inappropriateness of it just builds the tension to make it even harder to keep from laughing (or in your wife's case, the building marital tension is increasing her desire to bolt) ...but if you notice if you left the room or class ended...that desire to laugh somewhat loses its intensity. When you 180, you are releasing your spouse in a sense, taking the focus on what you need to do to work on yourself. The attention has been taken away from her...the tension relaxes a bit...and then that all-consuming desire for her to bail/escape/flee lessens...loses its steam. This gets them out of their fight/flight brain and more into their cognitive brain where they can logically start processing what their deal is...but if you keep trying to control her feelings, because you are afraid of her leaving...then she will react and want to get away. When she pulls away, you panic...reach for her, try to grasp onto her her when you feel her distancing herself...but instead of drawing her close...she is actually getting more and more repulsed. BUT when YOU pull away, she may actually reverse direction and equalize in the relationship...but this MUST mean that you cannot revert back to the needy, insecure behavior...or you will quickly find yourself in the same scenario...and then you can try the 180 again, but it won't work again...she will see it all as bullstuff. Read Boundaries in Marriage...excellent material. Work on all of this to get knowledge, but DO NOT TELL HER anything other than, "I'm working on some things" if she gets curious. Make your life changes be the hard evidence. This can be the best thing to happen in your life if you grab this by the horns.


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## bagdon

I have launched the 180 and I'm tweaking it to fit the particulars of my situation.
Okay, like I said, I read a big chunk of her diary the other day. a few other things:
* she's been working out for a few years now and has really trimmed her figure from the baby fat. (she looks good) I know now that she was not doing it for me and she wanted to attract men.(very hurtful) 
I know because on a few occasions she wrote about how horney she was feeling and was looking for passion and toe curling sex and how she had been fanticizing about other (sexy) men she was around. (that hurt me and made me angry because I was "begging" for sex! she makes me feel like I'm just a terrible lover.
* I put on about 35 to 40 pounds sense we've been married and years ago she did tell me she didn't like the little belly I was forming but I blew it off--yeah, I know. I'm 5'11" and weigh around 220Ibs now. She wrote "I am not in any way physically attracted to him." meaning me. on that same line she also wrote that she felt I was not physically attracted to her either. (which could not have been further from the truth)
I have started a fitness regimen. What should I do if she starts making sexual advances towards me a few months from now? We still sleep in the same bed and like I've said, she has "pity f****ed" me on rare occasions. I want my wife back, not a f*** buddy.


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## bagdon

KathyBatesel said:


> If you are certain she's planning to leave and you're hoping the relationship recovers, boot her out now. It might force enough of a crisis for her to come around if she's alone AND financially unstable. If money is her only hesitation, then if you wait till she has it she won't look back once she walks out that door. Make her appreciate the benefits you provide.
> 
> You didn't answer about the nature of "past wrongs" she blames you for.


Past wrongs: a.) The first mothers' day after her mom died I attended a mother's day dinner with my mother. She spent the day with her aunt; her mother's twin sister. She has never forgiven me for not staying with her on that day.
b.) She reacts as if I'm too timid to defend her when she has a disagreement or something with someone. 
c.) I blamed her for some of our financial hardship.

That's all I can think of right now but I'm sure there's more; I'm nowhere near perfect.


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## anchorwatch

I think If it happens in a couple of months, you would be able to tell the difference between pity sex and the want for real intimacy.That's the point isn't it? 

Look, here's the thing, you know she's a WAW. You can only do two things, Live the way you have for years or change your life. If you stay the same things will continue. If you change things will change. 

Here is a likely scenario. Your wife came to this conclusion before you. She may have asked you for change. Yet in your mind it wasn't as important as the list of daily priorities, at the time. Now you know it was to her. She may have started hoping you'd follow. Then somewhere along her journey she tired. Then the drag of you as an anchor built up a resentment and she lost her passion for you. That moved her to longing for someone who could give her that. Can that be you again? Is it worth the effort? Is she too far gone? Will you end up where she is too? No one knows what will happen. 

I can tell you that there is no chance for you or the relationship if you don't change. Now is the time to concentrate on you and your goal, win or lose. Do not lose energy worrying if she will change. You can not control what she does, only what you do. If you concentrate on her reactions your relationship will have no chance.

Read the books recommended about marriages and relationships for the knowledge on the subject and comparison to yours. 

Read these books for yourself.

No More Mr. Nice Guy Take the quiz!

https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

and

Married Man Sex Life 

The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay


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## bagdon

I guess I went a little overboard with the "f***buddy" comment. I want her to want me. I just don't want to give in to sex at the wrong time. You're right, all the signs were there and I didn't realize how detrimental my action/inaction was. Hindsight is 20/20.
I've changed now.


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## anchorwatch

It's time to recognize your part. It's passed time for you to *Break Free* from those detrimental behaviors to yourself and your relationships. Start the *MAP* too, be the captain of your ship. This is for the long term, for Bagdon. 

Good luck!


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## bagdon

I'm going to buy NMMNG & MMSLP right now.


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## anchorwatch

*Re: Re: She said "w/a man I don't love"*



bagdon said:


> I'm going to buy NMMNG & MMSLP right now.


I gave you the pdf link to NMMNG


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## Thor

bagdon said:


> I just don't want to give in to sex at the wrong time.


When is it the right time? When _you want_ to have sex with her.

You need to be selfish in sex. If you're a Nice Guy (per the book No More Mr. Nice Guy), and I think you are to a fair degree, you look at sex as pleasing her. Forget about her pleasure, concentrate on you having fun and you doing what you want to do. She is responsible for getting her needs met, you for yours.

It will seem a bit odd or even uncomfortable at first to get out of your head and just *do* whatever you feel like at the moment. It may seem very selfish, and it may seem like you are using her. This is where the Nice Guy perspective is warped, and so what is normal to everyone else seems selfish to you.

Newsflash: Your wife wants to be taken, and she wants you to be an animal.

So if the time comes when you want to have sex with her, it is the right time. If you sense she is offering sex as either a tool of manipulation or out of pity, decline it unless you want to just have sex (without the emotional bonding part).


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## FormerSelf

Physical attraction on her part will have a component of your physical appearance...but it has been said that many women are attracted to masculinity first. That if you step into your male power and direct that towards her...that triggers all sorts of hotness within them...when you bring that male strength into your sexual relationship. But sex is an echo of what is happening inter-personally. You can't just be as you are...then flip a switch and try to be dominant in bed...it's too incongruent...it will confuse the hell out of them more than turn them on. Make the changes of owning your manhood...then hopefully she will sense the shifting of roles...especially as it becomes more natural to you. When you don't bring that into the relationship...she doesn't feel that connection...and she def. doesn't feel your lust for her...which means she doesn't feel pursued...doesn't feel like you are attracted to her. Masculinity is vital.

The sad thing is...is that all of this **** is firing in my brain, now that my marriage is ending...but there has a lot to be said about how much dysfunction can cloud the brain. YOU MUST step away from it...get a good perspective and be very strategic, 'cos if you just react from your fears...then there is no hope. It's a slim chance already...so treat it like this is your last shot.


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## bagdon

FormerSelf said:


> Physical attraction on her part will have a component of your physical appearance...but it has been said that many women are attracted to masculinity first. That if you step into your male power and direct that towards her...that triggers all sorts of hotness within them...when you bring that male strength into your sexual relationship. But sex is an echo of what is happening inter-personally. You can't just be as you are...then flip a switch and try to be dominant in bed...it's too incongruent...it will confuse the hell out of them more than turn them on. Make the changes of owning your manhood...then hopefully she will sense the shifting of roles...especially as it becomes more natural to you. When you don't bring that into the relationship...she doesn't feel that connection...and she def. doesn't feel your lust for her...which means she doesn't feel pursued...doesn't feel like you are attracted to her. Masculinity is vital.
> 
> The sad thing is...is that all of this **** is firing in my brain, now that my marriage is ending...but there has a lot to be said about how much dysfunction can cloud the brain. YOU MUST step away from it...get a good perspective and be very strategic, 'cos if you just react from your fears...then there is no hope. It's a slim chance already...so treat it like this is your last shot.


Sorry to hear that formerself. It's amazing how all this stuff doesn't sink in until it's to or past the point of no return. Masculinity.... I recall one of our confrontations when she all but said I was weak. I said "you think I'm weak!" and she didn't say anything, just kind of walked away. That was a few years back. Does NMMNG talk about masculinity?
I had to order the books so I'll be waiting a couple weeks to dig into them. Meanwhile 180 continues. I'm changing my life. I can't thank everyone enough...whatever happens.


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## PreRaphaelite

Formerself has really given you some excellent advice and I would take almost all of it.

I'll only add a few comments. First, quit worrying about having sex with your wife. After reading how she's been planning for a long time to walk away, sex should be the last thing you should ask her for. 

Also, realize why you are doing the 180: it's for you, not for her or for your marriage, although it may have a great impact on it. If she wants to go, then tell her to go. Do the 180 and let her start asking questions. If she asks you why you're being so distant, I'd tell her the truth (except for the dairy): you think she's checked out of the marriage and you question whether or not she loves you. Tell her that you will not live in a loveless marriage.

Then let her respond.

Become strong. Formerself is completely right. Show her that you have a goal and that you can live without her if she wants to leave. She may end up writing other things in her dairy then.


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## bagdon

PreRaphaelite said:


> Formerself has really given you some excellent advice and I would take almost all of it.
> 
> I'll only add a few comments. First, quit worrying about having sex with your wife. After reading how she's been planning for a long time to walk away, sex should be the last thing you should ask her for.
> 
> Also, realize why you are doing the 180: it's for you, not for her or for your marriage, although it may have a great impact on it. If she wants to go, then tell her to go. Do the 180 and let her start asking questions. If she asks you why you're being so distant, I'd tell her the truth (except for the dairy): you think she's checked out of the marriage and you question whether or not she loves you. Tell her that you will not live in a loveless marriage.
> 
> Then let her respond.
> 
> Become strong. Formerself is completely right. Show her that you have a goal and that you can live without her if she wants to leave. She may end up writing other things in her dairy then.


She has a business account that I can't access so I don't know how close she is to feeling like she's ready to jump; her diary gives me the impression that she has a way to go and she's hoping for a big windfall from her next book which is a long way from being finished. I'll work on not concerning myself with that and I understand the 180 is for me. My unhappy marriage happens to be the catalyst for my change.


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## bagdon

By the way, I'm done reading her diary and plan to never do it again. It's fortunate for me that I read it because It's finally sunk in that I need to change myself & my life in a big way...deep down I already knew but I let life circumstances and procrastination distract me from what is needed. The unbearable pain of the thought of really losing my family and the vivid raw detail of my wife's inner most feelings has done it.


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## bagdon

I don't mean to justify what I've done, however, I still feel very fortunate that she left such sensitive information right out in plain site. The First time I read it about 6 months ago was an accident...really. There was a pile of papers and books in our bedroom on my side of the bed. As I was clearing it off I thought it belonged to one of my daughters, still not thinking it was a journal, I took a look inside; I quickly realized it was my wife's hand writing and thought It was notes for one of her books (she keeps a lot of them) Of course as I began to read, I realized it was her personal diary. At first I closed it immediately but I gave in to the thought of our crumbling relationship and wanted to get a glimps of her true feelings. Lately she's been "hiding" it in plain site I guess or she just didn't care if I saw it or not. I keep a journal too and would hate for someone to read some of the stuff I have in there.


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## bagdon

You know, the more I study 180, I can see a lot of this stuff she's already doing to me. She get's free counseling from a women's organization here.


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## Thound

Maybe she wanted you to find it. Still dont let her know you read it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bagdon

Status report:
I have scheduled a meeting this Thursday with an IC.
My fitness regimen continues
NMMNG & MMSLP are on the way
I'm slowly coming to resolve in my spirit about what I have to do to get my life turned around.
I'm actively working on how to better our/my living and financial condition.
Still reading and studying the 180 list. (Cried a little while walking and thinking this morning.)
Learning PATIENCE. 
Realizing new revilations about myself
Praying and meditating more
Question: During my morning walk/run I thought does it matter if your IC is the opposit sex? I mean will a woman IC be able to dig in and understand a male in this way as far as turning my life around and exerting my manhood?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anchorwatch

Bagdon, Start reading NMMNG now!

Here it is....https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


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## Plan 9 from OS

bagdon said:


> Past wrongs: a.) The first mothers' day after her mom died I attended a mother's day dinner with my mother. She spent the day with her aunt; her mother's twin sister. She has never forgiven me for not staying with her on that day.
> b.) She reacts as if I'm too timid to defend her when she has a disagreement or something with someone.
> c.) I blamed her for some of our financial hardship.
> 
> That's all I can think of right now but I'm sure there's more; I'm nowhere near perfect.


I know you are into the 180 thing, but has your wife ever told you exactly what you have done or did in the marriage to cause her to get to the point she is at today? I suppose these are guesses on your part, and I can see item 'a' being an issue. But items b and c are questionable. Is your wife acting like a horses ass and needs you to 'defend' her after she picks fights or is she being legitimately confronted on things that aren't her fault? Did she in fact contribute to the financial plight you two are in now? 

I realize that MMSLP and NMMNG are the 'bibles' of TAM, but really it simply comes down to these things that we have all learned when we were kids:


If you don't respect yourself and love yourself, others won't either.
Accepting poor treatment from someone will only encourage that person to continue the bad treatment - probably in increasing frequency/severity overtime if left unchecked.
You can't resolve problems if you don't talk about them.
Loving someone means that you care for their well being. It does not mean that you do everything for them.

There are other things I can add but you get the idea. It's really simple when you think about it. Most people want a relationship with someone that is worth being with. That means that the person they desire is not a pushover. A desirable person is also someone that will work for the betterment of his/her family in whatever task is at hand. It does not being complacent. 

I am surprised that people need to read books about things that should have been learned when growing up.


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## bagdon

anchorwatch said:


> Bagdon, Start reading NMMNG now!
> 
> Here it is....https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


Thanks... Reading now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bagdon

bagdon said:


> Thanks... Reading now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


16 pages in; Wow! I'm a "nice guy".....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bagdon

NMMNG Page 19 answered my question about using a female IC. Thank you. Still reading.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bagdon

NMMNG page 20 cautions that the process will effect relationships and encourages to ask my partner to read it with me... I'm using the 180...I'll just keep reading...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anchorwatch

bagdon said:


> 16 pages in; Wow! I'm a "nice guy".....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We know....



bagdon said:


> NMMNG page 20 cautions that the process will effect relationships and encourages to ask my partner to read it with me... I'm using the 180...I'll just keep reading...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Get through it first, you'll be rereading it......

Then you can formulate a plan. 


You may be interested in this site, where Nice Guys and reformed Nice Guys help each other along there journey.

No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group


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## bagdon

anchorwatch said:


> We know....
> 
> 
> 
> Get through it first, you'll be rereading it......
> 
> Then you can formulate a plan.
> 
> 
> 
> You may be interested in this site, where Nice Guys and reformed Nice Guys help each other along there journey.
> 
> No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group


_Posted via Mobile Device_

Thank you


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## bagdon

I'm scared
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anchorwatch

bagdon said:


> I'm scared
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's normal. You're afraid to step out of your comfort zone. You're conformable in your life, as bad as it is because you know how to exist there. It's amazing what crappy treatment we will put up with, not to face the unknown. 

Be assured, there are others here and at the other site that will walk along with you. 

Now YOU are going to rock the boat, not her. The difference is you will be prepared for the swell. 

Continue your reading....


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## GTdad

Anchor's right, it is normal. One of the items on your to-do list will be to lose the fear, but it's a process, not an event. As you realize and understand the truth of "I can handle it", regardless of what "it" may be, that fear will leave. And my God is it ever liberating. In my opinion, losing the fear is the single most valuable aspect of self-improvement there is. Keep reading and working at it.


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## Thor

bagdon said:


> Status report:
> 
> NMMNG & MMSLP are on the way
> 
> 
> Question: does it matter if your IC is the opposit sex?


Good, NMMNG and MMSLP compliment each other. NMMNG is about you living authentically to your own self. If you are a flaming gay person in your nature, than that is who you are and you should live accordingly. So no it isn't about being some macho John Wayne character. Though in general the book does talk about being the leader rather than the follower. In all things, your own life and your marriage and in your career. 

MMSLP is more about getting those authentic aspects of your masculinity out in the open rather than using the feminized pop culture model of the "modern" man.

Your IC can be either gender. My current IC is a woman around 50 yrs old, and she is very good. She has a ton of experience and she's perceptive. She also challenges me pretty hard, which is what I need! Some ICs take a very soft approach, which might be ok depending on the client. My IC does seem to understand the male perspective about things. A male counselor will natively understand your male perspective.

All else being equal I'd suggest the Nice Guy go with a male IC. But reality is that every IC is different and either gender can be good or bad.


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## Thor

bagdon said:


> NMMNG page 20 cautions that the process will effect relationships and encourages to ask my partner to read it with me... I'm using the 180...I'll just keep reading...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*DO NOT HAVE YOUR WIFE READ THE BOOK!*

Sorry to yell but this is important. Yes go to the forums at No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group - Powered by vBulletin and ask there about telling the wife about The Book. Plenty of bad stories. Only 1 or 2 positive results with wife knowing about the book.

NMMNG is about* you* improving *you*. It has nothing to do with her.


----------



## bagdon

I just finished reading the first 2 chapters. I'm crying and can't describe all of the feelings going through me right now. I always knew I wasn't alright but didn't know what to do! 
On to chapter 3!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bagdon

Thor said:


> *DO NOT HAVE YOUR WIFE READ THE BOOK!*
> 
> Sorry to yell but this is important. Yes go to the forums at No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group - Powered by vBulletin and ask there about telling the wife about The Book. Plenty of bad stories. Only 1 or 2 positive results with wife knowing about the book.
> 
> NMMNG is about* you* improving *you*. It has nothing to do with her.


Thank you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GTdad

bagdon said:


> I just finished reading the first 2 chapters. I'm crying and can't describe all of the feelings going through me right now. I always knew I wasn't alright but didn't know what to do!
> On to chapter 3!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're on a life-changing journey man, and I'm excited for you, totally regardless of what happens in your marriage.


----------



## bagdon

GTdad said:


> You're on a life-changing journey man, and I'm excited for you, totally regardless of what happens in your marriage.


I know right! This is the bigger picture....when my heart was struck with the truth I was reading my emotions about my wife and marriage, although still important to me, took a back seat. I'm still pulling myself together here. Still reading.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> I have launched the 180 and I'm tweaking it to fit the particulars of my situation.
> Okay, like I said, I read a big chunk of her diary the other day. a few other things:
> * she's been working out for a few years now and has really trimmed her figure from the baby fat. (she looks good) I know now that she was not doing it for me and she wanted to attract men.(very hurtful)


Yeah, that's why most women start working out; they've decided to make a change. Sometimes, it really is for their husband, but that's only if he's pulling lots of attention from other women; usually younger women. More about younger women, later.

I know this because I am in the physique training business. About 70% of my clients are women, at the moment. They talk too much. People on TAM truly underestimate the power of the male physique to visually arouse women when it is combined with a proper stance and attitude. Since you have actually read her mind, so to speak, don't be extra double stupid and ignore that fact, just because others feel the need to deny it. In this sense, you've been given a great gift of knowledge of her thought processes that almost all women conceal from their husbands and deny.



bagdon said:


> I know because on a few occasions she wrote about how horney she was feeling and was looking for passion and toe curling sex and how she had been fanticizing about other (sexy) men she was around. (that hurt me and made me angry because I was "begging" for sex! she makes me feel like I'm just a terrible lover.


Nope. Men who beg for sex are a huge turnoff. It sounds crazy, but begging for sex is much less successful than riding off to the bar on your Harley without her. Start behaving like that (after you get six pack abs) and she'll get on her knees and unzip your fly at every opportunity.



bagdon said:


> I* I put on about 35 to 40 pounds sense we've been married and years ago she did tell me she didn't like the little belly I was forming but I blew it off--yeah, I know. I'm 5'11" and weigh around 220Ibs now. She wrote "I am not in any way physically attracted to him." meaning me.


Social science experiments have shown that if the male body is in alignment with "The Golden Ratio" which is 1X waist under the ribcage and 1.6X around the shoulders (see picture)









When you add 40 pounds at the waist, you're doing a couple of things: 1) becoming a monster sexual turn off to women; 2) you're damaging your own sex drive and further eroding your sex appeal, both visually and behavorially, by amplifying estrogen production and suppressing testosterone production.



bagdon said:


> on that same line she also wrote that she felt I was not physically attracted to her either. (which could not have been further from the truth)


That's because you failed all her sh!t tests (look up that term) and you never "took" her the way a woman wants to be taken. Do you even have a clue what I'm talking about, here? Most "educated" American men under 45 don't seem to comprehend it, since they have lived under the false information matriarchy for their entire existence.



bagdon said:


> I have started a fitness regimen.


If you're following the "standard belief system" on fitness the way you've been following the SBS on relationships, you won't get what you need. Tell me about your program. I can point you in the right direction to get maximum bang for your buck with absolutely minimal time expending. Since you have so much on your plate, you don't want to be living in the gym. You want to do your thing and get out. Later, you can start hanging around if it becomes necessary to meet hot women, but you don't want this while you're trying to save your family; you want to be home. So, what's your program?



bagdon said:


> What should I do if she starts making sexual advances towards me a few months from now?


Fook the sheet out of her. Hard, fast, and long. Like an animal. You've read her book; believe it.



bagdon said:


> We still sleep in the same bed and like I've said, she has "pity f****ed" me on rare occasions. I want my wife back, not a f*** buddy.


From now on, start acting like you're getting plenty of action. I didn't say get action, I said act like it. Don't leave any evidence of masturbation anywhere. Same for porn. Be upbeat and happy all the time, from this day forth.



bagdon said:


> Past wrongs: a.) The first mothers' day after her mom died I attended a mother's day dinner with my mother. She spent the day with her aunt; her mother's twin sister. She has never forgiven me for not staying with her on that day.


Okay, so she's extremely self-centered. Got it.



bagdon said:


> b.) She reacts as if I'm too timid to defend her when she has a disagreement or something with someone.


That's not good. My wife told me a couple of days ago a very disturbing incident that happened between her and a client 20 years ago. I asked her why she did not tell me or report it to the police and her response was that I would have "gone hunting." Your wife should be afraid that you will go too far with defending her than not far enough. Your wife perceives you as a very low ranking male.



bagdon said:


> c.) I blamed her for some of our financial hardship.


While it is true that her decision not to work in her field contributed to your problems, you should be able to support your family without her working, if you want to maintain the highest levels of attraction. A very high percentage of women with advance degrees from elite universities are out of the workforce completely after 5 years. What does that tell you about the true nature of women?



bagdon said:


> I'm going to buy NMMNG & MMSLP right now.


MMSLP is about the best $10 you'll ever spend.

Now, about younger women. A woman's "sex rank" peaks at around 28. Her sex drive hits its highest level (thank you testosterone surge) and plateaus there at about or a couple of years later. That lasts until it starts to crater at or shortly before menopause. So, from say 30 on, her rank is dropping relative to the young hotties, right while your's is peaking, assuming you were smart enough to keep fit. You weren't, but that's an easy fix. Once you have a six pack, you'll greatly outrank your wife and can replace her with a "soft harem" of several younger, hotter single mothers. I know you don't want that, but I assure you that if your wife doesn't come around, it can be easily arranged.


----------



## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> I just finished reading the first 2 chapters. I'm crying and can't describe all of the feelings going through me right now. I always knew I wasn't alright but didn't know what to do!
> On to chapter 3!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't let her know you are reading anything from anywhere. Completely quit discussing anything about the relationship with her.


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## bagdon

I took a break from reading to go and do something for me. I rarely buy clothes or anything like that for myself only when they're falling apart with holes ( yet my wife finds time on occasion to show up with new jeans and get's her hair done--working part time) 
I went to walmart and spent over $100.00 just on clothes for me. Under wear, shoes and a new work out outfit. It Felt good and was a little difficult because I so seldom buy clothes-- Oh! while I was there a young attractive lady passing by said "oh those look good on you" when I was trying on the shoes.


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## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> I took a break from reading to go and do something for me. I rarely buy clothes or anything like that for myself only when they're falling apart with holes ( yet my wife finds time on occasion to show up with new jeans and get's her hair done--working part time)
> I went to walmart and spent over $100.00 just on clothes for me. Under wear, shoes and a new work out outfit. It Felt good and was a little difficult because I so seldom buy clothes-- Oh! while I was there a young attractive lady passing by said "oh those look good on you" when I was trying on the shoes.


What did you say back to her?


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## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> What did you say back to her?


I smiled and said " Why, Thank you" She and her friend smiled and kept walking


----------



## Faithful Wife

bagdon....Good job on the clothes!

Now go return them all at Walmart, and take your money to Nordstrom or better. If you shop smart, you can hit the sales and come out with WAY better clothes for not much more money.


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## bagdon

Faithful Wife said:


> bagdon....Good job on the clothes!
> 
> Now go return them all at Walmart, and take your money to Nordstrom or better. If you shop smart, you can hit the sales and come out with WAY better clothes for not much more money.


Haha! I'll do better on my next foray!


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## Faithful Wife

Get a good haircut and some new good smelling stuff...nothing too heavy, get that at Nordstrom too and have the lady help you pick one that is good on you. And remember to stand up straight. These small things make a huge difference in how you are perceived...and they will actually make you feeling better about yourself, too.


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## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> I smiled and said " Why, Thank you" She and her friend smiled and kept walking


You're supposed to say "Thanks. Can y'all help me with some advice on what else might work for me? I really don't know how to pick out clothes anymore because my wife used to do that for me and now she's run off with an ex-convict who got her hooked on meth."


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## bagdon

Faithful Wife said:


> Get a good haircut and some new good smelling stuff...nothing too heavy, get that at Nordstrom too and have the lady help you pick one that is good on you. And remember to stand up straight. These small things make a huge difference in how you are perceived...and they will actually make you feeling better about yourself, too.


I was just thinking about the hair cut too. I cut my own hair now but I'll find a good barber. Thanks!


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## Machiavelli

Faithful Wife said:


> Get a good haircut and some new good smelling stuff...nothing too heavy, get that at Nordstrom too and have the lady help you pick one that is good on you. And remember to stand up straight. These small things make a huge difference in how you are perceived...and they will actually make you feeling better about yourself, too.


Yes, Faithful Wife, you are totally correct. Stance is very important.


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## Faithful Wife

Yes, Mach...I know I am totally correct. You seem to think you are the only expert around here, but you are wrong as I am a self-proclaimed Sexpert and All Around Know It All as well.

(hand shake)

Carry on.


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## Machiavelli

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, Mach...I know I am totally correct. You seem to think you the only expert around here, but you are wrong as I am a self-proclaimed Sexpert and All Around Know It All as well.
> 
> (hand shake)
> 
> Carry on.


Chest Bump!


----------



## Thor

bagdon, right now you can make a few minor tweaks which will help. First, the posture and new clothes as mentioned are good. Get a decent haircut, wash the car, cut the grass. Clean up your crap which is strewn about the house or piling up.

Next, change your verbal interactions with her to be declarative. Instead of asking her something, tell her. For example, don't ask if she wants to go out to dinner, tell her you want to take her out. Note that you are not saying "I'm taking you out to dinner whether you like it or not", you are instead stating factually your desire or your plan. "I want to go out to Uncle Bill's for pancakes this morning. Be ready in 10 minutes".

Third, stop telling her what you are doing. Don't tell her you are going upstairs to take a shower. Just go and do it! Telling her you are about to do something can come across as sort of a request for approval from her. You just made her your Mommy by asking for approval! Common courtesy always applies, so if you're going out for burgers with a friend, tell her. Other stuff though like cutting the grass or watching tv, stfu and just do it.


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## Machiavelli

Bagdon, just out of random curiosity, is all your wife's time tightly accounted for? Does she ever go out with her "girlfriends" at night or is she always sticking close to home?


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## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> Bagdon, just out of random curiosity, is all your wife's time tightly accounted for? Does she ever go out with her "girlfriends" at night or is she always sticking close to home?


Her time is relatively accounted for as we are down to one vehicle right now. She's home with our children and our nephew most of the day this summer until I get off work. When she does have things she wants to do it's normally with the writer's organization she's a member of. She has told me that she's had some counseling sessions with a group called women to women. A lot of the time she'll take some combination of the children with her when she's out. But I can't say I know exactly where she's going all the time.


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## Tall Average Guy

Thor said:


> Next, change your verbal interactions with her to be declarative. Instead of asking her something, tell her. For example, don't ask if she wants to go out to dinner, tell her you want to take her out. Note that you are not saying "I'm taking you out to dinner whether you like it or not", you are instead stating factually your desire or your plan. "I want to go out to Uncle Bill's for pancakes this morning. Be ready in 10 minutes".


While I agree with all of this, consider modifying this slightly to say to her "I am heading out to Uncle BIll's for pancakes this morning in about 10 minutes. Let me know if you want to join me." If she does, great. If not, shrug your shoulders and head out the door.

While you want to invite her along, you need to be clear that you don't need her to do things that you enjoy.


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## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> Her time is relatively accounted for as we are down to one vehicle right now. She's home with our children and our nephew most of the day this summer until I get off work. When she does have things she wants to do it's normally with the writer's organization she's a member of. She has told me that she's had some counseling sessions with a group called women to women. A lot of the time she'll take some combination of the children with her when she's out. But I can't say I know exactly where she's going all the time.


How often does her writing group meet?

What genre does she work in?


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## bagdon

They Meet once, sometimes twice a month. A lot of the time she's attending book signings too so that would probably make it 3 times a month... on average...sometimes less. She has written young adult fiction. Mystery and ghost stories; that kind of stuff.


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## Machiavelli

I take it she doesn't converse with you much about her interests or the guys she meets at her events?

How hot is your wife?

See where I'm going with this? 

Nature abhors a vacuum.


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## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> I take it she doesn't converse with you much about her interests or the guys she meets at her events?
> 
> How hot is your wife?
> 
> See where I'm going with this?
> 
> Nature abhors a vacuum.


I see where you're going. I do think if the opportune situation occurred she might succumb to her desires but she is a spiritual "mother" and I think she's waiting for her "day of freedom" to let loose. She's a professional sophisticated attractive looking woman. She where's glasses and has a sexy voice. We live in a small community and many people recognize her as a local celebrity due to her book. There is another section I remember in her diary where she talked about having a disturbing amount of thought and fantasies about this person (she wouldn't name) and said she had to "resolve this". Then went on to another subject. 
Look, I know that my marriage is in great jeopardy. The Problem for me now is that I know so much it's messing with my mind. I completed my first reading of "No More Mr. Nice Guy" last night. Mach, my life is a mess. I am that classical nice guy described in the book from beginning to end. If my wife has had an affair or sexual encounter she didn't write about it and I can't dwell on that thought anymore. I realize that I am not living up to my potential. Hell, I'm the one holding her back! If I was her I'd want to get out too. I realize now that she started her journey years back..... The whole line of the title of this thread is, "How did I get to this point. I'm living in a city I hate in a house that belongs to my mother-in-law w/a man I don't love". It hurts like hell to see and know the truth but at the same time it's liberated me to live up to my full potential. I've been living in fear for some time now and that is what has stalled my life's ambitions. I'm Day 6 into MY journey. I thank you and I ask for whatever help you and others can continue to give.


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## sinnister

You can't make someone love you. Even if you're married to them.

Sorry you're here.


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## bagdon

sinnister said:


> You can't make someone love you. Even if you're married to them.
> 
> Sorry you're here.


I'm not trying to make her love me....anymore. I'm looking for support from you guys to help make ME better. Sure, I still hope and pray my marriage survives but I know the real issue is me and my life purpose. I just started so I'm vulnerable. Just hold my hand, pick me up, encourage me, kick me in the butt! Help me get better. Please.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude

I can't offer anything that others have not already mentioned. But I will say that you're on the right path.

Be strong mate


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## anchorwatch

Your on the right road, Bagdon. There are points in our lives when we exam where we are and where we're headed. It is positive when you recognize a course correction is needed and you make that change. Do not let regret stop your journey. 

Do you exercise? It can help control the stress and keep your mind clearer. 

BTW, You should read some of the marriage and relationship books, now that you finished NMMNG. 
My eye opener was "His Needs, Her Needs" or the one Thor recommended, "The Five Love Languages". They are fast reads. 

Once you start these changes, your W is going to notice and question them. If confronted, I just let her know your not happy about the way things are going and you want improvement. You might invite her to join you. Whatever her answer, let her know you will be making changes. Remember, she doesn't trust you to be a good partner, don't let that stop you either. This is not about her, it's about you becoming a better man.


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## bagdon

Let me clarify some things.
When I said " If I was her I would want out too" I meant to say, If I felt not wanted and trapped in a dead end miserable marriage I would want out too.
I know that I'm a good man...I just have some serious "issues" to deal with and recover from. I don't want to beat myself up to nothing. IF... I say again IF my wife turns around she'll be glad she did cause I'm turning things around for me.


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## bagdon

I have a safe person that I confide in now; my twin brother. I pored out everything I'm going through and he has been a great listener. We've decided to hang out more and do some things. I also have my first visit with my IC today. I'm looking to form relationships with some other guys I have in mind and I'm working a way out to start them.
I walk every morning now. I have a day off from work tomorrow. I scheduled a date for tomorrow with my wife when I was still in my nice guy state of mind; I plan on going for my walk and then just inviting her out to breakfast rather than the dinner and movie I initially planned. I will be cheerful and happy and I won't say anything about our marriage. I do plan on making her aware of some of the changes I'll be making with our finances and preparations for the next school year though. But not a word about our relationship and marriage.


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## anchorwatch

All good steps!

Don't worry about the date. If you want to take her out and enjoy yourself, do so. Where you want and when you want, on your terms, as the leader of the relationship.


----------



## FormerSelf

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I am surprised that people need to read books about things that should have been learned when growing up.


Many are not raised with this skillset...especially if one is raised in a dysfunctional environment where personal boundaries are disregarded, communication is subtly forbidden, and mentoring/exampling are absent.


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## Trying2figureitout

Here's what you do...

Tell her you know that she is unhappy with the way things are going.

If she asks how do you know?

Just say its obvious and that has caused me to re-examine the ways that I led to this outcome.

Ask her if she is willing to wait while you take journey to become a better husband that hopefully she will find attractive and love fully again.

See what she says.

*You need to create a start point to healing and start a dialog.*

Listen when she speaks she'll tell you whats missing if you really listen.
Don't whine, cry or anything like that just let her know you know she's unhappy. If she denies it still ask her if she's willing to give you feedback on your journey to better man.

Don't sugar coat it.... get a commitment.


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## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> But not a word about our relationship and marriage.


That's right. From here on out: deeds, not words.

Make those changes. Remember, at this age, your sex rank is going up relative all men and her sex rank is going down.

The fact that your mom owns your house is funny to me. We have the same sitch. My wife loves this house, we were happy to move into it, they were beyond generous to offer it, we're going to own it, shortly. But she still resents the hell out of it. They also gave my brother a house with the exact same results. Prime example of limbic overriding the cortex.


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## bagdon

6.15.13
Day 8 of a recovering “Nice Guy”

I took my wife out to breakfast yesterday. I attempted to be care free and….I’ll be back, she’s sitting behind me now and I don’t want her to catch a whiff of what I’m writing about. Okay, she’s asleep.
Anyway, I had a breakfast date with my wife yesterday. It took me a few minutes longer than usual to order because I’m eating healthy now. Normally when the waitress asks what will you like to drink, my typical response would be a sprite or pepsi; I only drink water now. Of course my wife asked what was going on and why I was all-of-a-sudden eating healthy? (something she’d been trying to get me to do for years) I told her I examined my life and looked at where I was and where I was headed so I’m working on some things. One being my health and fitness; Even though she would see me get up at 4:15am every morning no one in the house knew that I was actually leaving to go walk; I’m into my walk and I get a call from my wife’s number around 4:45am. It’s my 10 year old son asking where I was. He was having trouble breathing from a really bad allergy episode that morning and had come in our room for comfort and was shocked that I wasn’t there. When I told her about the morning walks, she wasn’t looking directly at me but I could see one of her eyebrows go up and the expression on her face was of surprise and approval. She asked me to wake her up the next morning to go. I said sure. (I’ll talk about that later) Without hesitation I launched into telling her about things I was changing concerning our finances. There was no resistance from her on that part. We talked about a few things I wanted to be clear on as far as logistics for the school year coming up and getting our van repaired before then. The most anxious thing for me to bring up was deciding to use the money I saved up for our summer vacation funds on getting both vehicles ready before September. She had just called me the day before telling me about some things she wanted to do for a trip for the kids; she seemed a little agitated about that but overall no stiff resistance. I prefaced my conversation with the overall theme of getting out of our financial rut. I had typed out a short list of talking points before we went out to breakfast and stuck them in my pocket. She caught me trying to look at it so I just sat it on the table beside me. She waited on me to scan over it and continue with things I wanted to talk about. I told her that was it. She said “that’s it?” like you’re not going to go into our relationship like you always do. It seemed to me like she let her guard down some when I didn’t say anything about our marriage.
At one point during our conversation she asked me what I wanted for father’s day. Without hesitation, I snapped out several clothing items I wanted. (Another pair of nice shoes, some nice slacks and another really nice shirt). I watched her write my list…she seemed pleased. The rest of the day she was very relaxed around me. I listened to her talk about a few things going on between some women in the church…nothing deep.

My brother is my “safe person” that I talk to about these things. We decided to go out for a ride later on that day and talk. He has also started reading NMMNG. I have a copy of The Married Man’s Sex life Primer so I took the book. He drove and I read from chapter 3 to chapter 5. I would stop reading from time to time and both of us would comment on different sections. We had a great conversation.

This Morning I woke my wife, as she requested, to go walking with me. The track is only a few blocks from the house. I was happy she was coming but I acted as if she was on my time and I was just waiting a few minutes. She hurried herself together and we went out. There was some but very little conversation and she walked slightly behind me as I lead the way to the track. When we got there I started the timer and began my pace and she walked her pace (I think I lapped her twice) there was no conversation except me telling her how much time was left a couple of times. I had some more really good clear thoughts on my action plans. My wife has been very involved with being fit for some time now and even considered being a trainer at one point so she decided to do some exercises when we got back. From that point I took my shower, did my morning prayer and devotional and wrote this.


I can only control my actions; I can handle whatever happens!


----------



## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> When I told her about the morning walks, she wasn’t looking directly at me but I could see one of her eyebrows go up and the expression on her face was of surprise and approval.


Check. As expected. The weight training is where you will get the real serious results, though, both for you and for her. How's that going?



bagdon said:


> Without hesitation I launched into telling her about things I was changing concerning our finances. There was no resistance from her on that part. We talked about a few things I wanted to be clear on as far as logistics for the school year coming up and getting our van repaired before then. The most anxious thing for me to bring up was deciding to use the money I saved up for our summer vacation funds on getting both vehicles ready before September. She had just called me the day before telling me about some things she wanted to do for a trip for the kids; she seemed a little agitated about that but overall no stiff resistance.


You're taking the lead and making command decisions. In Marine Corps officer training you have problems to solve, it's better to decisively attack the problem, even if you come up short in the solution. Dithering is fatal. You are pushing her limbic buttons. Even though she may not love your decisions, she can't help herself from submitting to your leadership and your decisive command presence (which, unless you get everybody killed, is more important than the actual decision). Standard expected response. Well done.



bagdon said:


> She waited on me to scan over it and continue with things I wanted to talk about. I told her that was it. She said “that’s it?” like* you’re not going to go into our relationship like you always do.* It seemed to me like she let her guard down some when I didn’t say anything about our marriage.


Of course. You're not being a needy wuss, so naturally she's going to find that appealing. Again, this is expected response. Continue to not talk about the relationship. However, she didn't take off her panties under the table and hand them to you, so there is more work to do.



bagdon said:


> At one point during our conversation she asked me what I wanted for father’s day. Without hesitation, I snapped out several clothing items I wanted. (Another pair of nice shoes, some nice slacks and another really nice shirt). I watched her write my list…she seemed pleased. The rest of the day she was very relaxed around me. I listened to her talk about a few things going on between some women in the church…nothing deep.


Good stuff, Bagdon. When you start punching in the hardwired codes, you get results.



bagdon said:


> There was some but very little conversation and she walked slightly behind me as I lead the way to the track.


Kind of scary, isn't it. This is called "taking the red pill."


----------



## Machiavelli

Bagdon,

Even *if* your wife comes around fully and is rubbing all over you all the time, you can never tell her you read her diary. Never, ever. No matter how close you feel to her and want to open up. Do you understand why this is?


----------



## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> Bagdon,
> 
> Even *if* your wife comes around fully and is rubbing all over you all the time, you can never tell her you read her diary. Never, ever. No matter how close you feel to her and want to open up. Do you understand why this is?


Absolutely. I told my brother, *IF* we do reconcile, even if she asked me directly about it I would deny even knowing what it looked like.

What's your explanation?


----------



## bagdon

I have to admit I felt a little bummed out today after I said to her "you look finer than ever in your sun dress today." Her response was not a good one; she kind of had this look on her face like "whatever" and I could see her shaking her head a little behind the closet door.
I'm still a little bummed out about it. That familiar sinking feeling in my chest happened after I saw her reaction...I had to remind myself to be PATIENT (with myself). I'm only a few days into my recovery. Apparently I still have too much of myself invested in the outcome.


----------



## anchorwatch

You're in it for the long term. It took you a long time to get where you are. It will take a while to put yourself right.

Keep at it. It will pay off. 

Enjoy your kids today. Happy Father's Day.


----------



## sda

I agree with what someone else said about her diary entry not being accurate. Why did you read it!? OBVIOUSLY you already know the truth…there is a detached distant discontent she is emitting which caused you to get curious. You should just talk to her and ask her specifically what she needs from you right now…then do it. Often women go to write to just get their feelings OUT. If she hasn't said it to your face that to me is a good sign because she doesn't feel it enough to cause drama…which for you is a good thing…because that means you still have a chance to make her fall in love again. You need to embody that man that she fell in love with. Think back and be him.


----------



## bagdon

bagdon said:


> I have to admit I felt a little bummed out today after I said to her "you look finer than ever in your sun dress today." Her response was not a good one; she kind of had this look on her face like "whatever" and I could see her shaking her head a little behind the closet door.
> I'm still a little bummed out about it. That familiar sinking feeling in my chest happened after I saw her reaction...I had to remind myself to be PATIENT (with myself). I'm only a few days into my recovery. Apparently I still have too much of myself invested in the outcome.


Okay! I just realized why she responded so negatively to my complement today. Today Is...FATHER'S DAY...In my old "nice guy" manipulative state, special days like this would be used to get sexual favors from her. In my former state of mind I would make her feel obligated to have sex with me. 
That was not my frame of mind at all in this instance. I just was feeling good about myself and more confident...dusting off my Alpha traits by complementing a good looking woman; yeah I was turned on but I really did not expect anything from her. (maybe a smile and a thank you) I just chose the wrong day to release some Alpha on her. Well, at least I think I know where that came from now; I don't feel quite as bad anymore; I'm perceiving things way different now that I have a clue what's going on inside me. I'm responsible for my own pleasure. Not her.


----------



## BrockLanders

bagdon said:


> Okay! I just realized why she responded so negatively to my complement today. Today Is...FATHER'S DAY...In my old "nice guy" manipulative state, special days like this would be used to get sexual favors from her. In my former state of mind I would make her feel obligated to have sex with me.
> That was not my frame of mind at all in this instance. I just was feeling good about myself and more confident...dusting off my Alpha traits by complementing a good looking woman; yeah I was turned on but I really did not expect anything from her. (maybe a smile and a thank you) I just chose the wrong day to release some Alpha on her. Well, at least I think I know where that came from now; I don't feel quite as bad anymore; I'm perceiving things way different now that I have a clue what's going on inside me. I'm responsible for my own pleasure. Not her.


You should have told her that she looks great in the dress, but you'll look a lot better when I take it off tonight. Stop asking for sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bagdon

BrockLanders said:


> You should have told her that she looks great in the dress, but you'll look a lot better when I take it off tonight. Stop asking for sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I get it. Stop askingfor sex. The wheels are starting to turn. I'll be ready when I'm ready. Thanks.


----------



## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> Absolutely. I told my brother, *IF* we do reconcile, even if she asked me directly about it I would deny even knowing what it looked like.
> 
> What's your explanation?


Women want a man who is at the top of his game effortlessly. She can't explain it, but it's her program responding to the highest quality male DNA available. She may not be able to verbalize it, or even recogniae it, but she wants a man who is responding to her needs because he naturally takes the lead in the relationship. If she knows you're taking the lead only in a reactive move to head off her planned actions, which you know about only because you read her battle plan, this is the final proof that you are an imposter and not the man she was meant to be with. The man she was meant to be with would not need to read her private thoughts to discern her state of mind, he would simply know. Start getting in the shape of your life, get that V torso, apply all your reading about what respond to and you will become that guy. Even if it's with a couple of younger, hotter women you haven't even met yet.

Similarly, women respond viscerally to the male physique, but get irritated when they catch a man checking his progress in the mirror or spending too much time in the gym. The also respond negatively to flexing and going "Hey, baby, check my six pack! How about this inguinal ligaments?" Again, they only want the guy who has those things naturally, not the guy who has to work his ass of to get it and keep it. Sounds insane, but it's because that's a sign of good genes, high testosterone, and the ability to provide protection and raw buffalo meat. It's all hardwired into her hind brain for the world of 10,000 years ago.

So, just as you don't want her knowing you're running a US government style plundering of her innermost thoughts, you also don't want to draw any attention to how hard you're working to make these changes. Both with the workouts and the reading. Dig?


----------



## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> I get it. Stop askingfor sex. The wheels are starting to turn. I'll be ready when I'm ready. Thanks.


Stop violating The Sixteen Commandments. Some of these are for dating, but you're plenty smart enough to figure out what applies to your marriage.


----------



## BrockLanders

bagdon said:


> I get it. Stop askingfor sex. The wheels are starting to turn. I'll be ready when I'm ready. Thanks.


It's going to start happening instinctually after a while. You've been living in a way discordant to your biology, programmed by hollywood and certain segments of society.


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## bagdon

So, just as you don't want her knowing you're running a US government style plundering of her innermost thoughts, you also don't want to draw any attention to how hard you're working to make these changes. Both with the workouts and the reading. Dig?

Okay, I deserve that... I fully understand and I completely dig.


----------



## bagdon

I also like the 16 commandments.


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## BrockLanders

Those commandments, meh, I'm not sure about all of that in a marriage. Some degeee of vulnerability is needed but I think it's variable based on the woman you're with. Full on cave man wilk get you laid but it's not conducive to all women in a ltr. You have to feel it out and filter it through manly thinking. Buon voyage.


----------



## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> So, just as you don't want her knowing you're running a US government style plundering of her innermost thoughts, you also don't want to draw any attention to how hard you're working to make these changes. Both with the workouts and the reading. Dig?
> 
> Okay, I deserve that... I fully understand and I completely dig.


In your shoes, I would have done the same.


----------



## Machiavelli

BrockLanders said:


> Those commandments, meh, I'm not sure about all of that in a marriage. Some degeee of vulnerability is needed but I think it's variable based on the woman you're with. Full on cave man wilk get you laid but it's not conducive to all women in a ltr. You have to feel it out and filter it through manly thinking. Buon voyage.


He's a smart guy and he'll figure it out. It's unlikely he will switch to Mr. Alpha tonight. He just needs to add some in.


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## warlock07

Rule out an affair...


----------



## bagdon

BrockLanders said:


> Those commandments, meh, I'm not sure about all of that in a marriage. Some degeee of vulnerability is needed but I think it's variable based on the woman you're with. Full on cave man wilk get you laid but it's not conducive to all women in a ltr. You have to feel it out and filter it through manly thinking. Buon voyage.


I know. Right now I need that injection of all out Alpha to help me balance the many years of living ultra Beta in my marriage that snowballed me into the man I was 10 days ago.

I remember I wasn't a wimp when we married and I'm working to revive that guy she said "I Do" to. Even if it's too late for our marriage...I pray it's not too late.


----------



## bagdon

Actually I hope to surpass that guy she said "I Do" to.


----------



## bagdon

6.17.13
Day 10 of a recovering “Nice Guy”

Short term goals (Year one): 

I will make myself as physically fit as possible and maintain that fitness.

I will study to increase my Alpha traits to balance my personality.

I will work on my business to create and grow wealth.

I can only control my actions; I can handle whatever happens.


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## bagdon

6.17.13 * REVISED *
Day 10 of a recovering “Nice Guy”

Short term goals (Year one): 

I will make myself as physically fit as possible and maintain that fitness.

I will increase my Alpha traits to balance my personality.

I will increase my finances and reduce my debt.

I will grow my business to create and grow wealth.

I can only control my actions; I can handle whatever happens.


----------



## bagdon

I am ashamed and embarrassed to admit that I have yet again read my wife's diary. I sent a PM to anchorwatch after the initial panic of what I read...I was afraid and ashamed to share it with everyone. At the end of his very helpful reply to my PM, anchorwatch encouraged me to share what I did with everyone. Here goes...

I felt very good almost all day yesterday, thinking about everything I had done in the past week. I even started rereading NMMNG and completed breaking free activities 3 & 5. I was pumped and focused. Later that day my family had a business meeting with the general contractor that's renovating my mom's house. I'm serving as the project manager so I had rush home from work to make the meeting; My wife was in attendance. right after the meeting my wife took the kids out skating. I was home alone. My wife's diary had been moved from the nightstand and was in the kitchen so I knew she probably had added an entry sense I launched 180. I tried to just walk past and let it go but again, I'm ashamed to say I could not resist wanting to know what, if anything, she thought about what I was doing. My hands literally trembled as I slowly picked it up.
Monday, June 18th:
"Divorce is looming over the horizon. I suspect bagdon has read my diary. He has started exercising and eating healthy. He says he's working on some things but I know he's not telling me everything...there in lies the problem. No communication." My wife had a long awaited job interview last week and she started lamenting to God how long she would have to wait to change her situation and believing that this job will be the opening to her freedom and how this is what she really wants and all the stuff I was doing now would be a bittersweet freedom for her. (something like that.) As you know, I fell to pieces again and was surprised at how fast I crumbled. I will never admit to reading her diary and I tried my best to not show any sign that I had done it again when they returned.


----------



## Nucking Futs

She may have left her journal out as bait. If so she's watching your behavior to see if you react to what she wrote, so keep doing what you have been doing. Continue to make the changes you were already making, but for you and you only, don't worry about her. In a week or so start phasing in more of the 180.


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## Thound

You will have good days and bad days. Just do your best every day. And yes she is wanting you to read it, because is is too scared to say anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anchorwatch

IMO, She is leaving it out, because she can't tell you to your face.

How long has she left it out for all to see?


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## bagdon

Well, It popped up again shortly after our 15th anniversary. I think that's when she started back writing in it. There had been a two or three month period where she hadn't written anything in it. from what I read. I hadn't seen it much before then because it was probably in one of the many bags she carries books and papers in.


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## Rollin

This is why you shouldn't have read it since you promised yourself you wouldnt.

I suspect she is using the diary and has high suspicions you read it. Don't ever read it again, and don't ever admit it.

Keep the changes coming, stay on track.


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## bagdon

anchorwatch said:


> IMO, She is leaving it out, because she can't tell you to your face.
> 
> How long has she left it out for all to see?


Our marriage has not been good for many years now. As I said, her body language and actions have told me more than words, however, we have had a few discussions about our marriage. In one discussion maybe 2 years ago she told me she thought we should end our marriage and be "co-parents". Of course I was in full blown Nice Guy mode back then so I continued with my same methods but harder...they always faded. Back in 2008 or 9 She told me she wanted to divorce and I basically wore her down with my nice guy logic. She would tell me "we've been doing the same thing for years now and it never gets better...We're just repeating a cycle." My response was usually something like marriage is for better or worse - Good and Bad - richer or poorer... I made a covenant with God and I promised you I wouldn't give up (I still believe that btw) and so on...I know she prayed about it as did I but my nice guy condition was killing us. I believe the unfulfilling sex was just as much of a deal breaker for her as it was for me; I don't think she's been really sexually satisfied by me sense our second child. I have to lead my family. Thank God for TAM/ NMMNG / MMSLP ...etc. because we're finally receiving the help we need.


----------



## bagdon

Rollin said:


> This is why you shouldn't have read it since you promised yourself you wouldnt.
> 
> I suspect she is using the diary and has high suspicions you read it. Don't ever read it again, and don't ever admit it.
> 
> Keep the changes coming, stay on track.


I told myself the same thing during my anxiety attack...I had a sleepless night last night. She did a lot of tossing and turning too; I may have even her a sniff or two from her when she thought I was asleep.


----------



## Rollin

Yea, so what are you doing to lose the fat and get in shape?

What is your height and weight and age? Current routine? Supplements your taking? Diet( calories and foods your avoiding)?


----------



## bagdon

Rollin said:


> Yea, so what are you doing to lose the fat and get in shape?
> 
> What is your height and weight and age? Current routine? Supplements your taking? Diet( calories and foods your avoiding)?


I walk for one hour six days a week. I will start HIT this Friday. I am 5'11" 220Ibs and I'm 45.


----------



## bagdon

bagdon said:


> I walk for one hour six days a week. I will start HIT this Friday. I am 5'11" 220Ibs and I'm 45.


I only drink water and I eat only three times a day. I am looking at trying the paleo diet.


----------



## LostViking

> She may have left her journal out as bait. If so she's watching your behavior to see if you react to what she wrote, so keep doing what you have been doing. Continue to make the changes you were already making, but for you and you only, don't worry about her. In a week or so start phasing in more of the 180.


This is exactly what she's doing. I would even suspect shes been sprinkling baby powder on the jacket to see if your fingerprints are there. 

Quit reading the diary and study up on the 180 and start doing it. A hard 180. There are links available all over this forum. 

You have a Walkaway Wife (WAW) who wants out of the marriage. Yes, you made all those solemn vows when you married, and to you they meant something. They didn't to her. You were a means to an end, and now that you are no longer useful to her she is ready to walk away from you. 

Get to a lawyer and know your rights. You don't need to file yet, but start getting your ducks in a row because when, and if, she files, she is going to come after you with a vengeance.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Absolutely no doubt she left that out for you to read and to react. That is real passive aggressive crap. As I read all your posts on this thread it looks to me like she has been baiting you for years. Don't fall into those traps. Don't take the bait. Forget about sex or intimacy unless she initiates. Keep doing what you need to do to improve yourself. Weight training, cardio, diet etc. Whether she decides to stay with you or not is her choice. If you act needy, beg, hangdog whiny, etc it will only increase her contempt and accelerate her departure. If you politely shrug while she baits you for a reaction it will keep her off balance. By your actions you show her you are willing to work on the marriage but if she has checked out and does not want to be with you there are other younger hotter versions of her out there waiting to take her place. Show her by actions you are more than happy to let her go since she is so contemptuous of you. With confidence show her you will meet a replacement. On your timetable.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

And stop reading her diary. At this point you could give 2 sh$ts what she writes, what she is thinking. Her actions towards you tell you everything you need to know.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

And make sure she does not have access to TAM.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

bagdon said:


> I am ashamed and embarrassed to admit that I have yet again read my wife's diary. I sent a PM to anchorwatch after the initial panic of what I read...I was afraid and ashamed to share it with everyone. At the end of his very helpful reply to my PM, anchorwatch encouraged me to share what I did with everyone. Here goes...
> 
> I felt very good almost all day yesterday, thinking about everything I had done in the past week. I even started rereading NMMNG and completed breaking free activities 3 & 5. I was pumped and focused. Later that day my family had a business meeting with the general contractor that's renovating my mom's house. I'm serving as the project manager so I had rush home from work to make the meeting; My wife was in attendance. right after the meeting my wife took the kids out skating. I was home alone. My wife's diary had been moved from the nightstand and was in the kitchen so I knew she probably had added an entry sense I launched 180. I tried to just walk past and let it go but again, I'm ashamed to say I could not resist wanting to know what, if anything, she thought about what I was doing. My hands literally trembled as I slowly picked it up.
> Monday, June 18th:
> "Divorce is looming over the horizon. I suspect bagdon has read my diary. He has started exercising and eating healthy. He says he's working on some things but I know he's not telling me everything...there in lies the problem. No communication." My wife had a long awaited job interview last week and she started lamenting to God how long she would have to wait to change her situation and believing that this job will be the opening to her freedom and how this is what she really wants and all the stuff I was doing now would be a bittersweet freedom for her. (something like that.) As you know, I fell to pieces again and was surprised at how fast I crumbled. I will never admit to reading her diary and I tried my best to not show any sign that I had done it again when they returned.


Absolutely no question she's leaving it out for you to read it.

I guess I would take a different road than the one many are recommending to you. I would call her out rather than ignore it.

I'd probably take her diary, put it on her table with a note inserted: "Please do not leave your diary out anymore. I do not want to read it. If you are so intent on leaving this marriage and so looking forward to your freedom then just go."

Or else I would hand the diary to her with the same message.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

PreRaphaelite said:


> Absolutely no question she's leaving it out for you to read it.
> 
> I guess I would take a different road than the one many are recommending to you. I would call her out rather than ignore it.
> 
> I'd probably take her diary, put it on her table with a note inserted: "Please do not leave your diary out anymore. I do not want to read it. If you are so intent on leaving this marriage and so looking forward to your freedom then just go."
> 
> Or else I would hand the diary to her with the same message.


If she could afford to go she would have already. That is clear in what he read. She is using him until her nest egg is ready sans hubby. I think the diary bait is her trying to goad him into a negative reaction culminating in him moving out of the house with his offended pride. That being said why just 'not' react to her contempt including the bait. Sooner or later she will speak what is on her mind and he can show her the door with a smile. Or he will get tired of her contempt months from now and just tell her since your scorn for me as your husband continues unabated with no end in sight I am ending this farce now. Then just hand her divorce papers.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> If she could afford to go she would have already. That is clear in what he read. She is using him until her nest egg is ready sans hubby. I think the diary bait is her trying to goad him into a negative reaction culminating in him moving out of the house with his offended pride. That being said why just 'not' react to her contempt including the bait. Sooner or later she will speak what is on her mind and he can show her the door with a smile. Or he will get tired of her contempt months from now and just tell her since your scorn for me as your husband continues unabated with no end in sight I am ending this farce now. Then just hand her divorce papers.


That's what I'm saying. I would confront her over this, but not in a completely negative way. Tell her that if she wants to be in this marriage that you're ready to do all you can to make it better, but if she's so hell bent on leaving then she's free to leave.

Don't get angry or indignant, just tell her to make a choice, and if she chooses the latter, you'll get the divorce proceedings started. That's manning up.

If she's trying to "manipulate" you into a divorce she's doing it in a funny way. She could have just come out and said so, which leads me to believe she has another motive in mind. 

Meanwhile just keep working on yourself bagdon.

There's no reason you need to put up with her childishness OP. Her messages to you are worse than insulting. Let her play her games with someone else.


----------



## btdt

PreRaphaelite said:


> That's what I'm saying. I would confront her over this, but not in a completely negative way. Tell her that if she wants to be in this marriage that you're ready to do all you can to make it better, but if she's so hell bent on leaving then she's free to leave.
> 
> Don't get angry or indignant, just tell her to make a choice, and if she chooses the latter, you'll get the divorce proceedings started. That's manning up.
> 
> If she's trying to "manipulate" you into a divorce she's doing it in a funny way. She could have just come out and said so, which leads me to believe she has another motive in mind.
> 
> Meanwhile just keep working on yourself bagdon.
> 
> There's no reason you need to put up with her childishness OP. Her messages to you are worse than insulting. Let her play her games with someone else.


I would be really tempted to tell her that I have two telephone numbers, one is to a marriage counselor the other is to a divorce attorney. I will be calling one of those numbers. The choice of which one I call is up to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bagdon

I am also receiving much welcome help from the guys on NMMNG support group. I was asked If she's written anything that would indicate she wants to save the marriage today?

I remember there was one ray of hope she wrote in mid December 2012. It was a long but mostly upbeat log about what was going on in her life and at the end of it she included something like, "Oh, and I've decided not to write off my marriage, he's talking future and we've started looking at houses. We're breaking free in 2013!" or some slogan like that.
I remember during that time I decided that I was going to take a look at possibly purchasing a home or at least look at what it would take to prepare ourselves/myself to get a home. I started the process with a realtor friend of mine and had no intention of telling her what I was doing because she tends to latch on to the idea of getting a home without any logical means of financially supporting the idea. (that could be one of my old nice guy traits of not taking risks and playing it safe) I eventually spilled the beans as to what I was doing; not sure why.(again, might have been a nice guy manipulative thing I was doing cause we were just as unhappy at the time)
We've owned two homes sense we've been married. The first "starter" home was great. 3BR 2bath nice little house; we made our first two babies in that house. Mind you, this first house was a house she had already started the process of purchasing before we were even engaged. I financially backed her on purchasing the house with a few thousand dollars (that she didn't have) after we were engaged and we owned it about 7 months before we were married.(technically she owned it according to the contract) but by all means it was our house. We Purchased the second home about a year and a half after the tragic death of her mother. (4BR 2.5bath with 2 car garage over 2100sqft of livable space) That house was great but one I felt pushed into purchasing because she was still in great grief and depression from the loss of her mother and I knew it would take almost every ounce of our earned income to maintain the home. I just wanted her to start feeling better and I figured the house would help. Needless to say the next 3 or 4 years was (for me) a very financially stressful time.
So we sold the second house when I got a job offer up north...well to make a long story a little shorter a lot happened between then and now which has brought us full circle to currently living in my moms house. My mom plans to renovate the house we are living in into her retirement dream home and move back in. I'm overseeing the process. Did I mention my wife and mother are like oil and water? Anyway, I know for sure my wife wants to make staying with her MIL as short as possible if at all. You know I attribute some of their relationship to my condition as a nice guy; my mom has eye's and she can see how my wife treats me but that's because I didn't set boundaries, assert myself and be the man I can be; I see that I've been an unwitting wimp...until now.


----------



## doubletrouble

Bagdon, I'm rooting for you. Good job on doing all that you've done to take control of your life, learn to like yourself, and be a stand-up man. 

I get a "feel" through your threads that the reading and working and so on are still more "talk the talk" rather than "walk the walk." This is natural, with a lot of things facing you and changes taking place. Just make sure that you really BELIEVE in yourself, that these things ARE making you into a better man, and that this isn't something you're doing just for now, but a new course, a new, narrow path for your life. And remember to not only talk to God, but LISTEN to him as well. 

All my best.


----------



## Blonde

We lived with the inlaws once for 6 weeks. That was in 1990.

It was hell on earth and I wouldn't stay with my husband if he moved us into his mother's and was busy working his fanny off fixing up *his mother's* house.

You mentioned God. Well the Bible says (only to husbands BTW) to leave father and mother and cleave to wife. Living with your mother isn't cleaving to your wife.

Sorry if this sounds harsh. My experience with my husband is that he can't hear unless I make *no* effort spare his feelings but make my case in a harsh way. 

I think some of the posters above are being waaaayyyyyyy too hard on your wife with the divorce threats. Do that, and she's likely to say "Fine! Good riddance mama's boy!"


----------



## bagdon

Blonde said:


> We lived with the inlaws once for 6 weeks. That was in 1990.
> 
> It was hell on earth and I wouldn't stay with my husband if he moved us into his mother's and was busy working his fanny off fixing up *his mother's* house.
> 
> You mentioned God. Well the Bible says (only to husbands BTW) to leave father and mother and cleave to wife. Living with your mother isn't cleaving to your wife.
> 
> Sorry if this sounds harsh. My experience with my husband is that he can't hear unless I make *no* effort spare his feelings but make my case in a harsh way.
> 
> I think some of the posters above are being waaaayyyyyyy too hard on your wife with the divorce threats. Do that, and she's likely to say "Fine! Good riddance mama's boy!"


I hear you. One thing she says/said quite often is she wants a house she can call her own. I admit I dropped the ball on the house search sense December. We had a blow out about it when she started pushing for us to make an offer on a mobile home for $90,000 but I didn't want to get locked into a mortgage on someplace before we're financially ready; near the end of the argument she said something like "why did you lead me on if you weren't serious about getting a house!" something like that. I said I wanted us to be financially ready when we got a house, not just jump into a deal and be in worse condition later on. (that was months ago) I'm sure she sees that as just another example of the merry-go-round leadership I have provided so far. Any ideas or connections on making that happen right now with 3 kids, One spouse gainfully employed w/no benefits and the other spouse not gainfully employed?


----------



## Blonde

bagdon said:


> *My mom plans to renovate the house we are living in into her retirement dream home *and move back in. *I'm overseeing the process.*


Your mommy is enabling you IMO, keeping you adjacent to her and making you her contractor. Go out and find a job for someone whose not a relative and get a house for you and your wife.



bagdon said:


> *Did I mention my wife and mother are like oil and water? Anyway, I know for sure my wife wants to make staying with her MIL as short as possible if at all.*


*

Really?!?!?!? 
Next door is no better IMO




bagdon said:



 my mom has eye's and she can see how my wife treats me 

Click to expand...



^^ooh yeah, mommy's on your side and has a bird's eye view to spy on you and your wife. 

How about your wife get her family move in with you to correct the deck stacking against your wife?*


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

What has your wife done besides complain to actually make any of your family circumstances better? 

Why is everything your fault?


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Blonde said:


> We lived with the inlaws once for 6 weeks. That was in 1990.
> 
> It was hell on earth and I wouldn't stay with my husband if he moved us into his mother's and was busy working his fanny off fixing up *his mother's* house.
> 
> You mentioned God. Well the Bible says (only to husbands BTW) to leave father and mother and cleave to wife. Living with your mother isn't cleaving to your wife.
> 
> Sorry if this sounds harsh. My experience with my husband is that he can't hear unless I make *no* effort spare his feelings but make my case in a harsh way.
> 
> _*I think some of the posters above are being waaaayyyyyyy too hard on your wife with the divorce threats.*_ Do that, and she's likely to say "Fine! Good riddance mama's boy!"


Scorn, derision, contempt and pity sex. hmmm


----------



## Blonde

Again, sorry if I sound harsh. When speaking to my husband I have an expression "light dawns on Marble Head" because he has a capacity for overlooking and ignoring what is completely obvious to me. 

To me, I read about your moving back to mom's (when you are the parents of grown children yourselves) and my response is "duh, this is not attractive!" 

Annoys me when people get on here and want to blame *your wife* for this and want you to give *her* ultimatums instead of noticing the obvious.


----------



## BrockLanders

Blonde said:


> Again, sorry if I sound harsh. When speaking to my husband I have an expression "light dawns on Marble Head" because he has a capacity for overlooking and ignoring what is completely obvious to me.
> 
> To me, I read about your moving back to mom's (when you are the parents of grown children yourselves) and my response is "duh, this is not attractive!"
> 
> Annoys me when people get on here and want to blame *your wife* for this and want you to give *her* ultimatums instead of noticing the obvious.


She doesn't have a hard time telling dear diary exactly what is wrong. Why should the OP do this dance if she could articulate her feelings in the first place?


----------



## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> What has your wife done besides complain to actually make any of your family circumstances better?
> 
> Why is everything your fault?


She's done very little practical things to help us get out of there. I'm not saying she doesn't look extensively for work in her field. Professional jobs have been hard to come by. She just recently finished a 4 month teacher aide job which definitely helped me (I say me because I handle our finances) build our emergency savings. She complained the whole time she did that job. She has no patience for my 2 & 3 year plans to get what we want. I never wanted to move back home I had to move back home.


----------



## bagdon

Blonde said:


> Again, sorry if I sound harsh. When speaking to my husband I have an expression "light dawns on Marble Head" because he has a capacity for overlooking and ignoring what is completely obvious to me.
> 
> To me, I read about your moving back to mom's (when you are the parents of grown children yourselves) and my response is "duh, this is not attractive!"
> 
> Annoys me when people get on here and want to blame *your wife* for this and want you to give *her* ultimatums instead of noticing the obvious.


As her husband and leader of our family, I take full responsibility for not being more assertive in leading us to where I know we want to be...I have to be man enough to protect her from her on emotional whims. Correct?


----------



## bagdon

And our oldest child is only 14


----------



## bagdon

Look, We all know I'm a recovering "nice guy". I'm sticking to my new found program to better my life and hopefully save my marriage along the way. I appreciate all support; even the kick in the pants Blonde. Thanks


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> She's done very little practical things to help us get out of there. I'm not saying she doesn't look extensively for work in her field. Professional jobs have been hard to come by. She just recently finished a 4 month teacher aide job which definitely helped me (I say me because I handle our finances) build our emergency savings. *She complained the whole time she did that job. She has no patience for my 2 & 3 year plans to get what we want*. I never wanted to move back home I had to move back home.


I hate to say this but based on what you have written in this entire thread the reason she has no patience over your 2-3 year plans as a couple is because in her 2-3 year plan you are not in the picture.


----------



## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> I hate to say this but based on what you have written in this entire thread the reason she has no patience over your 2-3 year plans as a couple is because in her 2-3 year plan you are not in the picture.


How is that?


----------



## bagdon

I think I see what you're saying Broken-in Brooklyn. Again, I think that's because I haven't been more assertive.


----------



## Blonde

bagdon, 

Must have mixed up the ages of your children. This means you are younger than I assumed and getting a better job should be easier for you than a 50ish man (like my husband).

Work on getting a better job. Working for your mom doesn't count and is robbing time you could be looking for work.

We have been very poor. Never moved home with folks (except the 6 weeks I mentioned in 1990 and that was because we were on a visit after returning from overseas and my appendix burst and I almost died so we were forced to overstay).

Sounds like you are handy. You could look for a fixer upper to work on (I wouldn't buy a trailer). 

I think your marriage my be better off if you get away from your mom, move someplace affordable with a good job market, rent at first, and buy a fixer upper in a great neighborhood. We bought a foreclosure for 25K in 2008 which hubby and son fixed up while hubby was unemployed (mostly foundation issues which caused sagging and broken windows, etc) and we now rent out for $950/mo.


----------



## bagdon

I've been lost without my own clear vision for our future. "nice guy syndrome". It really makes sense to me now. I'm not saying it's all my fault and she bears no blame, but I definitely hold more responsibility in this situation.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> I think I see what you're saying Broken-in Brooklyn. Again, I think that's because I haven't been more assertive.


I get the sense that she expects you to do all the lifting in the marriage and that she is a spectator.


----------



## bagdon

Blonde said:


> bagdon,
> 
> Must have mixed up the ages of your children. This means you are younger than I assumed and getting a better job should be easier for you than a 50ish man (like my husband).
> 
> Work on getting a better job. Working for your mom doesn't count and is robbing time you could be looking for work.
> 
> We have been very poor. Never moved home with folks (except the 6 weeks I mentioned in 1990 and that was because we were on a visit after returning from overseas and my appendix burst and I almost died so we were forced to overstay).
> 
> Sounds like you are handy. You could look for a fixer upper to work on (I wouldn't buy a trailer).
> 
> I think your marriage my be better off if you get away from your mom, move someplace affordable with a good job market, rent at first, and buy a fixer upper in a great neighborhood. We bought a foreclosure for 25K in 2008 which hubby and son fixed up while hubby was unemployed (mostly foundation issues which caused sagging and broken windows, etc) and we now rent out for $950/mo.


Thanks Blonde, I'm not handy at all. I am simply being the front man between my mom and the general contractor. I am a Professional audio engineer and work as the technical director at a university. Although I am a full time employee, State budget cuts have made my position a non salary position so I don't get state benefits...I basically get paid by the hour. I also run my own company on the side. With three kids it aint easy.


----------



## Blonde

As it stands now, your mother and your relationship with her are interfering with your marriage. Your mom's your OW and TBH there's an "ewww" factor to sex with someone enmeshed with his mom. (Again, sorry for sounding so harsh.)

I agree with those who said she leaves the diary around as a form of communication. Telling you that she didn't want to live with your mommy clearly didn't work so she has upped the ante with the WAW talk

ETA:^^ I see you aren't the contractor so scratch the fixer upper idea


----------



## Blonde

You could do a nationwide job search though and maybe find a better job in a more affordable area (housing wise). Make sure you are in the loop for any advertisements for your state university system. Seems to me you would have priority if there a full time position with benefits opens up.

You mentioned that your wife has not been able to get off the ground with career stuff. Instead of interpreting that as "lack of support" for your 2-3 year plan as some have suggested above, I would receive that as God's gift to you. Right now if she could support herself, she'd be outta there (according to dear diary). The fact that she's stuck right now gives you some time for your self improvement efforts.

If she's willing, I think this could be helpful Marriage Help Program For Couples and they keep it affordable no matter how tight your budget (H was unemployed when we went and we only paid the $65 registration fee)


----------



## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> I get the sense that she expects you to do all the lifting in the marriage and that she is a spectator.


She seems to be depressed about being out of work and in the past she's told me many times that she feels bad about not being able to contribute financially to our family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bagdon

doubletrouble said:


> Bagdon, I'm rooting for you. Good job on doing all that you've done to take control of your life, learn to like yourself, and be a stand-up man.
> 
> I get a "feel" through your threads that the reading and working and so on are still more "talk the talk" rather than "walk the walk." This is natural, with a lot of things facing you and changes taking place. Just make sure that you really BELIEVE in yourself, that these things ARE making you into a better man, and that this isn't something you're doing just for now, but a new course, a new, narrow path for your life. And remember to not only talk to God, but LISTEN to him as well.
> 
> All my best.


Thanks double, You're right I am still letting it become real to me. Today was the first time I felt a little like I could really go on without her. I'm following the process and it is helping. I know I've already come a long way in 13 days. I do want this to be my way of life...hopefully with my family still intact.


----------



## bagdon

Blonde said:


> You could do a nationwide job search though and maybe find a better job in a more affordable area (housing wise). Make sure you are in the loop for any advertisements for your state university system. Seems to me you would have priority if there a full time position with benefits opens up.
> 
> You mentioned that your wife has not been able to get off the ground with career stuff. Instead of interpreting that as "lack of support" for your 2-3 year plan as some have suggested above, I would receive that as God's gift to you. Right now if she could support herself, she'd be outta there (according to dear diary). The fact that she's stuck right now gives you some time for your self improvement efforts.
> 
> If she's willing, I think this could be helpful Marriage Help Program For Couples and they keep it affordable no matter how tight your budget (H was unemployed when we went and we only paid the $65 registration fee)


Thanks Blonde, I have actually said that to her. "Maybe God is keeping us in this situation to bring our marriage to a breakthrough." I know now that He really has a lot of work to do on me to make me a great husband, father and businessman. which has thankfully now begun since I've been with TAM and NMMNG.


----------



## doubletrouble

I believe it can be intact if you stick with it and make the real changes you need to make. I've done somewhat of a similar track (although not a nice guy), and when you feel it inside you, and it becomes a natural part of your thought process, it'll stick.


----------



## weightlifter

I was kind of where you were. In Nov 2012 I went to the doctor and was 215 lbs. 3 weeks later I was 218! That singular moment I remember so well was a wake up call.

I cut out soft drinks except while at work. This was an 80% reduction. I was looking to stop gaining but something great happened. I started dropping. By Marchish I was at 188 lbs.

Then I noticed something. A woman customer flirted with me! I asked a much older female coworker about it. She told me since I had dropped all that weight many women were flirting with me. She told me the signs. Now I see it all the time. Im in my mid 40s. I am NOT an older Brad Pitt. I am zero competition to him. Remember in your mid 40s your competition gets flabbier and flabbier. Now I get ZERO from 20 year old hotties. They are all I would say 32-45 age. Ill take it!

Now I NEVER reciprocate. I am married and have stupid high barriers to cheating... But HELLYEA! It feels great. Tuesday night one woman customer was crazy obvious... and yes. It felt damn good.

And I am not even at the golden ratio. 6'. Waist 33! I fit in my pants I could not fit in when I got married! Chest 46. When finances allow I am joining a gym. Finances suck ATM. Wanna get my guns back. Used to bench 315 @ 8 reps 345 1-2 reps.

Put that image of some 30 somethings in your mind... Get it into your head that IF she ejects SHE WILL BE REPLACED with younger and hotter! Yes you should try to save your marriage but have it in your mind that there IS life after she ejects IF she does.

Success is the best revenge! It will drive her nuts when she sees you with a better looking younger woman, especially if SHE is the one to hit the eject button.

BTW be sure to erase your browser history.

You hear alot about alpha but remember in LTR. Alpha attracts. Beta holds her heart. You need a good mix. Once in a while alpha caveman take her! When she gets the flu. Superbeta helpmate...


----------



## bagdon

weightlifter said:


> You hear alot about alpha but remember in LTR. Alpha attracts. Beta holds her heart. You need a good mix. Once in a while alpha caveman take her! When she gets the flu. Superbeta helpmate...


I am certainly working on balance. Other than getting off soft drinks what was your diet? I plan to start HIT tonight (Fridays, Mondays & Wednesdays) Thanks for the encouragement.


----------



## weightlifter

bagdon said:


> I am certainly working on balance. Other than getting off soft drinks what was your diet? I plan to start HIT tonight (Fridays, Mondays & Wednesdays) Thanks for the encouragement.


Alphas bed all the women they want. They mostly cant hold them worth a damn. I know a superalpha looks player. His pull on STUNNING women is AMAZING. He beds ~100 women a year. He is one of the few who could claim to have bedded true 9s and 10s. A 10 is 1 in 10000 women. A 9 is a full time model and perhaps 1-2% of women. An 8 is the normal highest pull a normal man gets and might just well be a part time model at perhaps 5% of the population. He is 29. He has had ONE girlfriend. We joke he will be the future star and real life example of "The worlds most interesting man" OTOH his wingman is the happiest guy in the world. He gets the castoffs. Mere 8s and 9s. Poor guy.

in exercise as far as what I do. Understand in my job I walk about 28 hours a week against two foreigners with small fusion reactors built in them. If I stand around I get thrashed sales wise. I want badly to join a gym. Money is a problem ATM.

One thing I have learned from TAM. Learn the proper response to sh!t tests. 

TELL YOURSELF. In 3 months when you get your weight down you CAN replace her if necessary. NOT that you want to but if you have to. YOU WILL. 

Learn to walk with a little swagger. square up shoulders broad. You own where you walk. You wont get flirts from 20somethings. Who cares. You get the flirts from 30somethings who are your target audience. Enjoy the attention. It will also increase your confidence and swagger. which will feed back...


----------



## bagdon

weightlifter said:


> One thing I have learned from TAM. Learn the proper response to sh!t tests.
> 
> TELL YOURSELF. In 3 months when you get your weight down you CAN replace her if necessary. NOT that you want to but if you have to. YOU WILL.
> 
> Learn to walk with a little swagger. square up shoulders broad. You own where you walk. You wont get flirts from 20somethings. Who cares. You get the flirts from 30somethings who are your target audience. Enjoy the attention. It will also increase your confidence and swagger. which will feed back...


Give me an example of a proper response to a Sh!t test.


----------



## BrockLanders

bagdon said:


> Thanks Blonde, I'm not handy at all. I am simply being the front man between my mom and the general contractor. I am a Professional audio engineer and work as the technical director at a university. Although I am a full time employee, State budget cuts have made my position a non salary position so I don't get state benefits...I basically get paid by the hour. I also run my own company on the side. With three kids it aint easy.


If you work more than 29 hours a week your employer is going to have to offer you benefits with the new health care law.


----------



## weightlifter

1) Wife goes off on something completely out of your control. (Make sure it is not legit) She starts a screaming fit or similar.

Just let her go off. Ingore it. Its hard NOT to go running and begging "what did I do What did I do?" That is beta. My wife snivels on some of them. "Just go down stairs" when she really wants me to do the begging what did I do crap.

You know what I do now? I go down stairs! Hit youtube and LISTEN TO MUSIC! She will eventually come down stairs. "Why didnt you talk?" I answer "you told me to go down stairs!" LOL I am now making her argue with herself. Hell 75% of the time the first thing she says she is mad about isnt really the thing she is mad about. So she says the real reason she is mad and SOMETIMES she is right. If she is. I will tell her she is right. When she is not. I tell her that too. Calm voice and in control.

Its not a sh!t test but when I caught my wifes EA and I told her what I found. She went nuclear. (I found a spooning Email from her ex when she left her email open and all I was doing was going to look at weather. That is a RUDE way to start a Saturday). To add insult to injury he is a half literate hillbilly. Damn right I went back in her history and found what she said was 1 month was at least 5 as far as I could tell but that email was also referencing previous contact)

She goes off "You snooped my email, it is none of your business" My response. "You married me, You ARE my business"

Machiavelli is better than me on this subject. His ban is hopefully up soon.


----------



## bagdon

BrockLanders said:


> If you work more than 29 hours a week your employer is going to have to offer you benefits with the new health care law.


I'll follow up with my supervisor and HR on that. I work 40 or more hrs per week on average. Thanks!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 6301

Ok. Maybe your wife doesn't understand that the recession has not only hit your household but millions of other families like yours. 

You said that she was an attorney but didn't like it. It's clear that she's a very smart woman and has the ability to make things better but chooses to write books that haven't brought in much money and therefore since money is tight you have to move into a house belonging to your Mother and she's not happy about living there. Maybe what you should do is sit her down and explain to her that living there is a far better deal than not having a roof over her head and living in a car . At least you have a job and there is some income rolling in. What is she doing to improve the situation when she has gone to law school and has the ways and means to make a whole lot more that what she making now?

Take her for a ride. Don't tell her where. First stop? A homeless shelter. Walk her through it and let her see that those people living there would cut their right arm to have a roof over their head not only for them but their children. If that doesn't work then take her stop number 2.

Take her to a soup kitchen and let her serve some of the people who come in and are given a hot meal that they might have not have had in a long time. Have her look those people straight in the eye and see the look on their face when they get to sit down to a hot, home cooked meal that someone prepared for them and watch them eat everything on that plate knowing that they might not get another meal like that in a long time. Guarantee you that these people would trade places with her in a heartbeat. If that doesn't work, then take her to stop number 3.

Take your wife to a food bank and have her watch people that once had a good job and earned a decent income come in and have to accept handouts to feed their family because their benefits ran out and have her watch their faces as they accept the food. It's a look of embarrassment, shame through no fault of their own and she'll also see the look of someone grateful. All these people have it far worse than her and I promise you, they would suck it up and put up with the mother in law. Most would be grateful to her for letting her live there. 

She want's to write books? Fine. Do it on her days off. Being a local celebrity in a small town is like being the prettiest girl in a ugly contest. Sometimes people don't have the common sense to know that life can be a whole lot worse. By the way. Tell her to publish her diary, it can be put in the fantasy section of the book store.


----------



## bagdon

Great news! I've been home by myself pretty much all day today. Her diary is still sitting in the kitchen and I haven't even had an urge to touch it. I think I'm over worrying about what she says in there. My thoughts have been positive and everyone's words of encouragement and wisdom have helped me GREATLY. I can see myself getting stronger and more confident. A lot of my thoughts today were focused on nutrition and getting/staying fit. I'm taking it one day at a time.
I can only control my actions. I can handle whatever happens.


----------



## Thumper

Diary in the kitchen?..................glad you didn't take the bait.


----------



## weightlifter

BAIT

You got what you needed anyway.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Good for you. Her actions tell you everything. You do not need to read her diary to see what is going on.


----------



## weightlifter

Who will win the race? OP or the wife.

I'm thinking the wife is close to filing.

Keep upping yourself OP. WIN! Make yourself better. When she files. You find younger and hotter!


----------



## bagdon

She has been a lot less cold and distant sense I started the 180. We talk a lot more about light stuff and she's still very encouraging about my exercising and eating healthy. Remember she joined me on my walk the morning after our breakfast date? That was the only morning she did it. (I wasn't upset about it and didn't react or say anything...that was me time anyway) She has resumed her almost daily walks now too and yesterday, as she was preparing to go walk, informed me that she couldn't do the morning walks with me because she stays up so late writing. The way she said it felt to me like she really wanted to go with me but just couldn't do the mornings. (I go 4:15AM every morning) It's not something I asked her to do either.
I'm home way early from today's walk because my left shin muscle got really tight and sore. I limped home and I'm taking a break from walking today. I'm stretching it now. So here I am talking to you good people. I've been taking care of myself and doing things for me. Yesterday was my lazy day.
We are planning a short little 4th of July vacation. I don't feel anxious about this trip because I don't expect anything from her (sexually) like I use to back in my old "Nice Guy" state of mind. This trip is for the kids and we're going to have a great time. We're getting along and things are not quite as "eggshelly" between us. She's careful to sleep at least a sheet above mine every night in bed though. I guess she doesn't want me to get any ideas and mess up a good thing now that we're "friendly" again. It doesn't bother me like it use to.


----------



## anchorwatch

Two steps forward, only one step back. 

Like the injuries you get while training, your personal growth will mirror that too.

Work through it.

How did the weight training go yesterday?


----------



## LostViking

Blonde said:


> As it stands now, your mother and your relationship with her are interfering with your marriage. Your mom's your OW and TBH there's an "ewww" factor to sex with someone enmeshed with his mom. (Again, sorry for sounding so harsh.)
> 
> I agree with those who said she leaves the diary around as a form of communication. Telling you that she didn't want to live with your mommy clearly didn't work so she has upped the ante with the WAW talk
> 
> ETA:^^ I see you aren't the contractor so scratch the fixer upper idea


Okay...yeah...we get that you don't like your MIL Blonde.

But these issues go far deeper than her dislike of her MIL. This is a situation where you have a wife who in my mind is too smart by half but lacks any real marketable skills, who b1tches and moans when her husband doesn't make enough cash to support the lifestyle she expects, yet does nothing to help bring in extra income. 

Sorry, the MIL angle doesn't cover all the bases here. This is a respect issue.


----------



## bagdon

anchorwatch said:


> How did the weight training go yesterday?


Well my HIT book didn't get here so I didn't do anything. I guess I could start doing push ups and sit ups or something till it gets here.


----------



## anchorwatch

Make sure you hydrate and stretch before your walks. That will help with the cramps. 

The trainer should be back sometime Monday, for your questions. 

Did you research 5LL or HNHN yet?


----------



## bagdon

anchorwatch said:


> Make sure you hydrate and stretch before your walks. That will help with the cramps.
> 
> The trainer should be back sometime Monday, for your questions.
> 
> Did you research 5LL or HNHN yet?


Oh Great! I'll see if I can get on those books today. Thanks!


----------



## Rollin

Start doing HIIT, walk/jog for 30 seconds, run for a minute, and keep on rotating. Do that on an empty stomach, so first thing in the morning, and you'll burn a lot more fat.

You interested in getting supplements? Personally they helped me a ton when I was cutting.

If anything, you should get some fish oil and green tea extract, both are non stimulants. If you think you can handle stimulants lmk. 

Try and get some caffeine in your body early in the day, either through a supplement or coffee. 

Stay away from carbs, max 50 grams in a day.

Essentially you should choose 3-4 meals that are healthy and eat them everyday. Eggs, chicken, tuna. 

ignore rule number 4 here, Quick Weight Loss - Lose 20 lbs of Fat in 30 Days With the Slow Carb Diet

intermittent fasting is a good proven method, but you don't need to do that tbh


----------



## BrockLanders

She's really subtle lol. Maybe next time she will put a post it that says "read me". By you showing her you don't care what's in the diary is going to make you look much better. Maybe instigate some sex tonight?


----------



## Blonde

LostViking said:


> Okay...yeah...we get that you don't like your MIL Blonde.



Wrong!

My MIL is just fine- 2 1/2 hours away 

And I AM a MIL (three of my children are married so far). I don't want my married children depending on me/us financially. I don't think it's healthy.


> BThis is a situation where you have a wife who in my mind is too smart by half but lacks any real marketable skills, who b1tches and moans when her husband doesn't make enough cash to support the lifestyle she expects, yet does nothing to help bring in extra income.


I read the scenario far far different than you...

They have 3 children under 14 AND she is a published author who made a respectable amt on her first book and is working on her second.

Who takes care of the children and household? Depending on how far away from the school you live and how involved the children are that can be extremely busy... 

She's a lawyer. AKA high achiever and anything but lazy.


----------



## Blonde

> her husband doesn't make enough cash to support the lifestyle she expects


LOL! "the lifestyle she expects"? 

Note to self--> 

Make sure my daughters know that expecting their OWN home is not an unreasonable lifestyle expectation. You should not have to live with your husband's mother! 

That goes for my sons too! Visit often, but get your own place for you and your family to live!


----------



## Blonde

LostViking said:


> This is a situation where you have a wife who in my mind is too smart by half


Sorry just can't get past your post...

You want a DUMB wife?:scratchhead:

You know, I have to thank you for helping me to appreciate my husband who seems PROUD to have a smart, talented, educated, industrious wife. 

/tangent

bagdon,

Lost V is no reflection on you. Keep up the good work!


----------



## bagdon

Blonde said:


> Wrong!
> 
> My MIL is just fine- 2 1/2 hours away
> 
> And I AM a MIL (three of my children are married so far). I don't want my married children depending on me/us financially. I don't think it's healthy.


I agree. As a Husband and Father I am acutely affected by being in my "mommy's" house. It's embarrassing and depressing. I want/need to have my own too. I've spent so much time being a "nice guy" trying to make my wife and others like me that I haven't been about my business like a man should for his family. One of the things I'm focusing on this year is to increase my income and lower my debt.


----------



## bagdon

Blonde said:


> Wrong!
> 
> I read the scenario far far different than you...
> 
> They have 3 children under 14 AND she is a published author who made a respectable amt on her first book and is working on her second.
> 
> Who takes care of the children and household? Depending on how far away from the school you live and how involved the children are that can be extremely busy...
> 
> She's a lawyer. AKA high achiever and anything but lazy.


She is indeed a smart woman and an outstanding mother. She just needs me to be a strong leader; I must stop trying to please and just do what's best for us. LEAD. Anchorwatch gave an accurate scenario early on in this thread before I realized I was a "nice guy". She started her journey hoping I would catch on or snap into it; (impossible in my condition) she grew tired and lost her passion for me. Through my reading of MMSLP I think back and realize instances when she was practically begging me to TAKE THE LEAD. I know now I won't be able to love her or anyone until I love myself and get it together! She's not perfect and I'm not perfect. I'm still hurting and wounded knowing how she really feels about me and what really get's me is I understand her perception. I have a lot of work to do. 15 days in...I'm a work in progress!


----------



## 6301

How long are you going to let her taunt you with this diary? Look. Tell her either put your ten cent diary away or better yet tell her to put the diary where the sun doesn't shine. Point to the door and tell her, "You see that large rectangle with a piece of glass in it and the knob? It's called the door and if you want out of the marriage, instead of leaving your diary out with your crappy thoughts in it,try having some guts and back bone and say bye-bye and leave". Better yet, stop *****ing about how tough you have it Einstein and use the brain that you were blessed with and do something better than wallowing around in a career that isn't bringing much in. 
The woman is flat out selfish. Doesn't she have an idea that maybe you too would like to move out of your Mothers spare house and into you own? 
And to the lady who said she wants her daughters to marry someone who can give her a home. The recession hit a lot of people who have lost it all through no fault of their own. I don't know anyone who wants to be down and out but it happens. What do you do. ***** slap you spouse because he or she lost their job?


----------



## bagdon

6301 said:


> How long are you going to let her taunt you with this diary? Look. Tell her either put your ten cent diary away or better yet tell her to put the diary where the sun doesn't shine. Point to the door and tell her, "You see that large rectangle with a piece of glass in it and the knob? It's called the door and if you want out of the marriage, instead of leaving your diary out with your crappy thoughts in it,try having some guts and back bone and say bye-bye and leave". Better yet, stop *****ing about how tough you have it Einstein and use the brain that you were blessed with and do something better than wallowing around in a career that isn't bringing much in.
> The woman is flat out selfish. Doesn't she have an idea that maybe you too would like to move out of your Mothers spare house and into you own?
> And to the lady who said she wants her daughters to marry someone who can give her a home. The recession hit a lot of people who have lost it all through no fault of their own. I don't know anyone who wants to be down and out but it happens. What do you do. ***** slap you spouse because he or she lost their job?


The diary is no longer an issue for me. You're right; this recession screwed a lot of us up. She does do some selfish things but l know she's not perfect...I'll forgive that part, correct my responses/reactions to it and just work on me. Balance! I appreciate your view 6301.


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## LostViking

So much anger here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon, did you ever get the sense that your wife expects you to be clairvoyant? In respect to what she is thinking?


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## Chaparral

Have you tried talking to the banks in your area about houses they have foreclosed on.

In our area houses have started selling like hotcakes. Prices will go up. Some locations houses are going as soon as they are put on the market.

New homes, all of a sudden we have six new starts, material prices going up . New windows taking one month to get instead of two week lead time.

Did you catch the advice to hide your browsing activity here? Never reveal sources. Pretend the diary doesn't exist. Maybe even pile some junk on it. A 
Lawyer should be suspicious, I am sure she knows something is up.

Btw, you have no idea who she was having thoughts about?


----------



## Chaparral

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> bagdon, did you ever get the sense that your wife expects you to be clairvoyant? In respect to what she is thinking?


Since all women think they read us like a book, they are sure we can read their minds. The problem is our brains are as alike as cats and dogs. Two entirely different logic/hormone systems. In the past, women could communicate with extended, female family members in the same household. Now they look for that from men who are not equipped for that function having been evolved/blessed by God for a different purpose.


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## Chaparral

I think you should be wary of even thinking about confronting her with any relationship talk as some are advising. Talk is cheap when there are problems.

Actions speak louder than words.

Clothes shopping at Walmart is a little to spartan, a bit too frugal. Kohls and Pennys have great bargains and sales among others.

Hopefully, mach will be unbanned soon. He no doubt stepped on someones toes who could not handle disagreement.


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## bagdon

Last night she slept in the kid's room. One of my friends from NMMNG support group said it will get worse before it get's better. I don't know, things are clearly changing between us though. I can feel myself starting to fully buy into the whole process as time goes on; small sparks of a different kind of energy are developing inside me as I stay the course. Her sleeping in the other room only strengthened my resolve....felt good.
I've decided not to initiate any direct talk about our marriage until I am strong enough to really handle whatever happens...I'm getting there, but not there yet. If she says something before I do, I'll know that my recovery process has compelled her to say something. 

This morning I balanced my checkbook and cleaned the car before everyone got up. I put on my best suit for church and one of my daughters complemented how good I looked this morning. I was sharp; it fit a little better too sense I've been eating healthy and walking. During the testimony part of service I got up and thanked God for opening my eyes to some things that I was changing about myself and I thanked Him for the the process of change that I was experiencing in my life. My wife would not look toward the pulpit during my testimony. she gave me a warm hug during the fellowship after the testimonies though. After the service the kids got cupcakes and cookies as we departed; in the car, my wife asked me if I wanted a cookie. I said no thanks; (she already knew I wasn't going to eat it) She looked at me partially smiling and said "This is part of your process?" I looked her in the eye and just said yes...Nothing more and proceeded to drive us home. 

The Diary...
Yes, her diary is in the kitchen under a stack of papers and folders. It's not sitting on the table with a sticky pad on it saying "bagdon, read this if you dare." I don't think she's written anything else in it sense the 18th as I put it there along with the folders and papers when I cleared the table for our meeting. She has probably been monitoring the stack though.


----------



## Blonde

6301 said:


> Ho
> And to the lady who said she wants her daughters to marry someone who can give her a home. The recession hit a lot of people who have lost it all through no fault of their own. I don't know anyone who wants to be down and out but it happens. What do you do. ***** slap you spouse because he or she lost their job?


I think it's about priorities (and/or where you live; you can live near me and get great houses for under 100K)

My husband lost his job at age 55 in 2008 and I was not sure he would ever work again (they don't go for aged engineers, they like them fresh from college). He was unemployed for 13 months. A God thing was that we had paid off the mortgage on our primary residence, and we had bought a foreclosure just before he lost his job- for 25K cash. So he and 22 yos fixed it up with some money borrowed from my mom. Now we rent it out for $950/mo.

I suggest Dave Ramsey for advice on budgeting and setting priorities. Only I think he is insanely conservative to steer people away from a house purchase till they are out of other debt. Mortgage rates are at historic lows and lots of markets still have bargains- bagdon look at Fannie Mae REO Homes For Sale - HomePath.com


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## bagdon

Blonde said:


> I think it's about priorities (and/or where you live; you can live near me and get great houses for under 100K)
> 
> My husband lost his job at age 55 in 2008 and I was not sure he would ever work again (they don't go for aged engineers, they like them fresh from college). He was unemployed for 13 months. A God thing was that we had paid off the mortgage on our primary residence, and we had bought a foreclosure just before he lost his job- for 25K cash. So he and 22 yos fixed it up with some money borrowed from my mom. Now we rent it out for $950/mo.
> 
> I suggest Dave Ramsey for advice on budgeting and setting priorities. Only I think he is insanely conservative to steer people away from a house purchase till they are out of other debt. Mortgage rates are at historic lows and lots of markets still have bargains- bagdon look at Fannie Mae REO Homes For Sale - HomePath.com


Yes, I/we recently took the Financial Peace class offered through our church.
I'm working on those finances...I now realize why it's been so difficult to implement with a WAW. Thanks for the links and info!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LostViking

Buying a new house is the LAST thing you need to be thinking about doing right now.

Why would you lock yourself into 30 years of house payments when you don't even know if your marriage is going to last another 30 days?


----------



## Chaparral

LostViking said:


> Buying a new house is the LAST thing you need to be thinking about doing right now.
> 
> Why would you lock yourself into 30 years of house payments when you don't even know if your marriage is going to last another 30 days?


You have to break eggs to make a cake. His big problem is trying to keep off the eggshells.


----------



## LostViking

A committed wife loves her husband even if they are living in a van down by the river.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Blonde said:


> I read the scenario far far different than you...
> 
> They have 3 children under 14 AND she is a published author who made a respectable amt on her first book and is working on her second.
> 
> Who takes care of the children and household? Depending on how far away from the school you live and how involved the children are that can be extremely busy...
> 
> She's a lawyer. AKA high achiever and anything but lazy.


Yeah, but I am not sure it is that simple. Lots of lazy lawyers out there. She was also unemployed during the recession and decided to do something different. As far as her writing, they invested a lot into it in the first place. She has made some money back, but it is not clear how much. What is clear is that it is not enough to live on.

The undercurrent I see is that she resents him for not making enough money to allow her to follow her passions. They don't have enough to get a house away from the MIL (though if you read an earlier post, they were having big marriage issues when they lived 9 hours away from the MIL, so I wonder if this is an excuse), they don't have enough to invest in her writing more, and she was unhappy that she had to take a part time job to earn the family more money.

I don't get the sense that she views their marriage as a team, where they both work together. Rather, finances are his job.


----------



## Blonde

LostViking said:


> Why would you lock yourself into 30 years of house payments when you don't even know if your marriage is going to last another 30 days?


I would never go for a 30 year mortgage in any case. 15 years max. That's what we did and paid off the mortgage on an average income of 40K during the 15 years (@$800/mo house pmt).

The way I read it, the wife is distressed about living at Mom's compound and the Bible tells him to "leave and cleave". Living next to mom isn't "leaving" (and is a real damper on "sex rank" for those of you who measure your manhood that way).

So, rent, if you have to, move to a cheaper city if you have to. Do whatever it takes to move out of Mom's.


----------



## Blonde

LostViking said:


> A committed wife loves her husband even if they are living in a van down by the river.




Right.

And a committed husband loves his wife even if she gains 300 pounds and only has sex with him once a year.


----------



## Blonde

bagdon said:


> She's done very little practical things to help us get out of there. I'm not saying she doesn't look extensively for work in her field. Professional jobs have been hard to come by. She just recently finished a 4 month teacher aide job which definitely helped me (I say me because I handle our finances) build our emergency savings. She complained the whole time she did that job. She has no patience for my 2 & 3 year plans to get what we want. I never wanted to move back home I had to move back home.


Where I live, teacher aide jobs pay minimum wage which rots when you're a lawyer. Takes away from time she could be looking for something better.

She "looks extensively for work in her field". Maybe relocating cities to one where there is a better job market would help with that? How about she looks nationwide and you give up your job for a career move for her? 

To me "teamwork" is not telling her "be a teacher aid for my 2 year plan and we are going to live with my mom, I really don't care if you don't like it". Teamwork is what can WE do to get out of this rut?

I suggest you write a note and put it in her diary or fess up in an e-mail.

"Yes, I read your diary. And I was shocked and saddened to read that you are ready to walk away from our marriage. Would you be willing to go to this with me? Marriage Help Program For Couples If so, I will call and get a reservation."


----------



## bagdon

Blonde said:


> Right.
> 
> And a committed husband loves his wife even if she gains 300 pounds and only has sex with him once a year.


She did gain a lot of weight while we were having babies. I'm thinking that was a very sensitive time for her and my "nice guy syndrome" made her think that I was completely not attracted to her as I rarely displayed the alpha characteristics that make your W feel like you want her. I was overwhelmingly beta. 
As unhappy as I am with our sex life I never entertained the thought of leaving her (another nice guy trait)....but that's where she is.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Bagdon, don't tell her you read the diary. Unless you want to have a big fight and one of you moves that day.

Bagdon, do you honestly believe your marriage problems are a result of living next door to your mom? 

Lets review what has been written so far:

- She states she is with a man she does not love
- You beg her for sex
- She cringes when around you
- She wants to move and be free (of her marriage) 
- 2009 she removed her ring (The message was for other men that she is available. Sorry Bagdon). She wears it around you to shut you up. 
- Has not forgiven him for past wrongs. ( Bagdon, the ones you wrote down are laughable)
- When he tries to talk to her about the future she looks at him with "What's the point".
- She worked out so she can attract OTHER men
- She wants to have toe curling sex with OTHER men
- She hates having sex with HIM
- She is not attracted to HIM
- She emasculates him - " You think I am weak"
- When he compliments her her reply is "whatever" - on Fathers day

These are your observations and her words from the diary. I think you are on the right path with detachment. She is detached from you clearly and she wants out. I do not think moving or buying a house house is going to fix this. You cannot even talk to her about your marriage including future plans with having derision, scorn and contempt from her. She is not having sex with you, she sleeps with an extra sheet so you do not approach her. You walk on egg shells around her. 

Forget the house for now.


----------



## Blonde

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> - She states she is with a man she does not love
> - You beg her for sex
> - She cringes when around you
> - She wants to move and be free (of her marriage
> - 2009 she removed her ring (The message was for other men that she is available. Sorry Bagdon). She wears it around you to shut you up.
> - Has not forgiven him for past wrongs. ( Bagdon, the ones you wrote down are laughable)
> - When he tries to talk to her about the future she looks at him with "What's the point".
> - She worked out so she can attract OTHER men
> - She wants to have toe curling sex with OTHER men
> - She hates having sex with HIM
> - She is not attracted to HIM
> - She emasculates him - " You think I am weak"
> - When he compliments her her reply is "whatever" - on Fathers day.


^^ Your *interpretation* of her actions.

I went through MLC where I took my ring off, worked out, etc and it was not to attract OM. It was to recover myself. I felt very taken for granted, unappreciated, and unloved by my husband. 

I laid down my life for my husband following him all over the world pursuing his dreams, bearing him 8 children, and I was a shell of the woman I used to be.

My first two college degrees are in engineering. Met H in grad school (early 1980's) Worked for a few years, moved a LOT following husband's career path and dreams, birthed and raised 8 children.

I had some low paid p/t jobs where children could tag along over the years in elected town politics, ARC personal asst for a lady at our church, etc, but I got in the pipeline for a second career when H lost his job in 2008 and now I am an RN. It can put food on the table in a pinch and take care of myself and children if my husband chooses to be WS.

bagdon's wife might not stay in the legal field any more than I stayed in the engineering field. My husband was un-supportive of my return to nursing school (I think he like having control of the very traditional submissive wife I was before MLC). 

His lack of support was painful to me after all I had been through moving hither and yon supporting his dreams and aspirations ((((sigh)))). 

I could be wrong about her. Maybe she's has an unfaithful heart? But maybe she is just hurt and tired of not being heard? Retrouvaille can help with that.


----------



## bagdon

Blonde said:


> Where I live, teacher aide jobs pay minimum wage which rots when you're a lawyer. Takes away from time she could be looking for something better.
> 
> She "looks extensively for work in her field". Maybe relocating cities to one where there is a better job market would help with that? How about she looks nationwide and you give up your job for a career move for her?
> 
> To me "teamwork" is not telling her "be a teacher aid for my 2 year plan and we are going to live with my mom, I really don't care if you don't like it". Teamwork is what can WE do to get out of this rut?
> 
> I suggest you write a note and put it in her diary or fess up in an e-mail.
> 
> "Yes, I read your diary. And I was shocked and saddened to read that you are ready to walk away from our marriage. Would you be willing to go to this with me? Marriage Help Program For Couples If so, I will call and get a reservation."


I really appreciate your point of view on our situation. We lived three years in a much larger more progressive city where I was making pretty good money. She found temporary employment in her field but nothing permanent. I had no problem with her making more money than me when she did. The problem is I have been the ultimate team player and not the LEADER. My lack of leadership or assertiveness has caused the woman to not love me and disrespect me...I have to work on me; buying/renting a house would be another chump move to just please her and not do what needs to be done. Everyplace we have lived and I mean everyplace she has found enough fault to justify in her mind that we have to move; she was never content for long in anyplace we lived. I don't like our living situation but I gotta finally start being a man and lead my family through this valley...If she wants to bail, I gotta be man enough to let her go. I want our marriage to survive but as a married couple I deserve better than I'm getting; I've learned sense being here that sometimes what you want and what you deserve are two different things. 
And there is no way I'm saying anything to her about that diary.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Blonde said:


> ^^ Your *interpretation* of her actions.
> 
> I went through MLC where I took my ring off, worked out, etc and it was not to attract OM. It was to recover myself. I felt very taken for granted, unappreciated, and unloved by my husband.
> 
> I laid down my life for my husband following him all over the world pursuing his dreams, bearing him 8 children, and I was a shell of the woman I used to be.
> 
> My first two college degrees are in engineering. Met H in grad school (early 1980's) Worked for a few years, moved a LOT following husband's career path and dreams, birthed and raised 8 children.
> 
> I had some low paid p/t jobs where children could tag along over the years in elected town politics, ARC personal asst for a lady at our church, etc, but I got in the pipeline for a second career when H lost his job in 2008 and now I am an RN. It can put food on the table in a pinch and take care of myself and children if my husband chooses to be WS.
> 
> bagdon's wife might not stay in the legal field any more than I stayed in the engineering field. My husband was un-supportive of my return to nursing school (I think he like having control of the very traditional submissive wife I was before MLC).
> 
> His lack of support was painful to me after all I had been through moving hither and yon supporting his dreams and aspirations ((((sigh)))).
> 
> I could be wrong about her. Maybe she's has an unfaithful heart? But maybe she is just hurt and tired of not being heard? Retrouvaille can help with that.


We only have her words in her diary and his observations. to go by. 

And your personal experiences are certainly true for you. But I would not recommend them as a baseline for what she has written and what he has observed,


----------



## Blonde

bagdon said:


> The problem is I have been the ultimate team player and not the LEADER. My lack of leadership or assertiveness has caused the woman to not love me and disrespect me...I have to work on me; buying/renting a house would be another chump move to just please her and not do what needs to be done. Everyplace we have lived and I mean everyplace she has found enough fault to justify in her mind that we have to move; she was never content for long in anyplace we lived. I don't like our living situation but I gotta finally start being a man and lead my family through this valley...If she wants to bail, I gotta be man enough to let her go. I want our marriage to survive but as a married couple I deserve better than I'm getting; I've learned sense being here that sometimes what you want and what you deserve are two different things.


LOL! 

Well I guess I had to become the LEADER too and "start being a man" because my husband was the one who moved us around frequently, treated me and the children disrespectfully (verbally abusive), used porn, strip clubs, and cheated in 1990 and 2008 and I had to detach, make plans to move on with my life with OR without him, grow a backbone, and put my foot down.

No more Mrs Nice Guy! 

She could have an unfaithful heart like my husband. OTH I see pple on here encouraging YOU to develop an unfaithful heart. Just sayin'


----------



## bagdon

Blonde said:


> ^^ Your *interpretation* of her actions.
> 
> I went through MLC where I took my ring off, worked out, etc and it was not to attract OM. It was to recover myself. I felt very taken for granted, unappreciated, and unloved by my husband.
> 
> I laid down my life for my husband following him all over the world pursuing his dreams, bearing him 8 children, and I was a shell of the woman I used to be.
> 
> My first two college degrees are in engineering. Met H in grad school (early 1980's) Worked for a few years, moved a LOT following husband's career path and dreams, birthed and raised 8 children.
> 
> I had some low paid p/t jobs where children could tag along over the years in elected town politics, ARC personal asst for a lady at our church, etc, but I got in the pipeline for a second career when H lost his job in 2008 and now I am an RN. It can put food on the table in a pinch and take care of myself and children if my husband chooses to be WS.
> 
> bagdon's wife might not stay in the legal field any more than I stayed in the engineering field. My husband was un-supportive of my return to nursing school (I think he like having control of the very traditional submissive wife I was before MLC).
> 
> His lack of support was painful to me after all I had been through moving hither and yon supporting his dreams and aspirations ((((sigh)))).
> 
> I could be wrong about her. Maybe she's has an unfaithful heart? But maybe she is just hurt and tired of not being heard? Retrouvaille can help with that.


Today has been an emotionally down day for me. I cried a little on the way to work. I'm hurting and frustrated that she said she doesn't love me. I have to keep reminding myself that I'm still not long into my recovery. I'm going to make some inquiries into setting up some MC.
We have had some MC I think. (it was terrible) The woman we were seeing was a divorcee who was much older than us and seemed too happy to be divorced. my wife had been seeing her for a couple weeks before she asked me to join them in a session. As soon as the lady started hearing me and said she wasn't on anyone's side , my wife seemed to throw up her hands and was ready to end the sessions and the marriage. All this was when we were living in the "big city".
Anyway, Deep down I don't feel my wife has an unfaithful heart...she may just need to be heard.


----------



## bagdon

Blonde said:


> LOL!
> 
> Well I guess I had to become the LEADER too and "start being a man" because my husband was the one who moved us around frequently, treated me and the children disrespectfully (verbally abusive), used porn, strip clubs, and cheated in 1990 and 2008 and I had to detach, make plans to move on with my life with OR without him, grow a backbone, and put my foot down.
> 
> No more Mrs Nice Guy!
> 
> She could have an unfaithful heart like my husband. OTH I see pple on here encouraging YOU to develop an unfaithful heart. Just sayin'


What is an unfaithful heart?


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> Today has been an emotionally down day for me. I cried a little on the way to work. I'm hurting and frustrated that she said she doesn't love me. I have to keep reminding myself that I'm still not long into my recovery. I'm going to make some inquiries into setting up some MC.
> We have had some MC I think. (it was terrible) The woman we were seeing was a divorcee who was much older than us and seemed too happy to be divorced. my wife had been seeing her for a couple weeks before she asked me to join them in a session. As soon as the lady started hearing me and said she wasn't on anyone's side , my wife seemed to throw up her hands and was ready to end the sessions and the marriage. All this was when we were living in the "big city".
> Anyway, Deep down I don't feel my wife has an unfaithful heart...she may just need to be heard.


She has to speak in an audible voice to be heard.


----------



## Thound

I would bet your wife still loves you, she may not feel in love. I have been fighting that battle for ten years now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

bagdon said:


> Today has been an emotionally down day for me. I cried a little on the way to work. I'm hurting and frustrated that she said she doesn't love me. I have to keep reminding myself that I'm still not long into my recovery.


Been there. For me, reading Psalms helped. You are well loved by God no matter what your wife does. May you feel His comfort and love. Two of my favorites where I turned again and again when feeling sad, hurt, and unloved:

Psalm 63 NKJV - Joy in the Fellowship of God - A Psalm - Bible Gateway

Psalm 42 NKJV - BOOK TWO: Psalms 42—72 Yearning for - Bible Gateway


----------



## Blonde

bagdon said:


> What is an unfaithful heart?


Matthew 5:28 MOUNCE - But I say to you that whoever looks at - Bible Gateway


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Blonde said:


> LOL!
> 
> Well I guess I had to become the LEADER too and "start being a man" because my husband was the one who moved us around frequently, treated me and the children disrespectfully (verbally abusive), used porn, strip clubs, and cheated in 1990 and 2008 and I had to detach, make plans to move on with my life with OR without him, grow a backbone, and put my foot down.
> 
> No more Mrs Nice Guy!
> 
> She could have an unfaithful heart like my husband. * OTH I see pple on here encouraging YOU to develop an unfaithful heart.* Just sayin'


What is an "unfaithful heart"? Who encouraged him to have an unfaithful heart?


----------



## lifeistooshort

bagdon said:


> I really appreciate your point of view on our situation. We lived three years in a much larger more progressive city where I was making pretty good money. She found temporary employment in her field but nothing permanent. I had no problem with her making more money than me when she did. The problem is I have been the ultimate team player and not the LEADER. My lack of leadership or assertiveness has caused the woman to not love me and disrespect me...I have to work on me; buying/renting a house would be another chump move to just please her and not do what needs to be done. Everyplace we have lived and I mean everyplace she has found enough fault to justify in her mind that we have to move; she was never content for long in anyplace we lived. I don't like our living situation but I gotta finally start being a man and lead my family through this valley...If she wants to bail, I gotta be man enough to let her go. I want our marriage to survive but as a married couple I deserve better than I'm getting; I've learned sense being here that sometimes what you want and what you deserve are two different things.
> And there is no way I'm saying anything to her about that diary.



Just be sure that your leadership doesn't translate to your personal plans without regard to what she thinks and if she doesn't like it sure can bail. You always have to strive for balance between your needs, her needs, and family needs. Your leadership should seek this balance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> What is an "unfaithful heart"?


answered above



Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Who encouraged him to have an unfaithful heart?


Didn't the link to #183 work?


----------



## Blonde

#171 too



weightlifter said:


> Put that image of some 30 somethings in your mind... Get it into your head that IF she ejects SHE WILL BE REPLACED with younger and hotter!


^^ unfaithful heart


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> *Today has been an emotionally down day for me. I cried a little on the way to work. I'm hurting and frustrated that she said she doesn't love me. I have to keep reminding myself that I'm still not long into my recovery.* I'm going to make some inquiries into setting up some MC.
> We have had some MC I think. (it was terrible) The woman we were seeing was a divorcee who was much older than us and seemed too happy to be divorced. my wife had been seeing her for a couple weeks before she asked me to join them in a session. As soon as the lady started hearing me and said she wasn't on anyone's side , my wife seemed to throw up her hands and was ready to end the sessions and the marriage. All this was when we were living in the "big city".
> Anyway, Deep down I don't feel my wife has an unfaithful heart...she may just need to be heard.


I think you are on the right track. Unfortunately you will have up and down days. You have to bear it for yourself and your kids.

How do you propose to ask her about attending MC? What if she dismisses it?


----------



## Blonde

Machiavelli said:


> Once you have a six pack, you'll greatly outrank your wife and can *replace her with a "soft harem" of several younger, hotter single mothers.*


 ^^ unfaithful heart

If it was me and I found out my Christian husband was listening to advice like this, my lawyer degree would come in handy for getting the divorce papers filled out. :FIREdevil:


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Blonde said:


> I could be wrong about her. Maybe she's has an unfaithful heart? But maybe she is just hurt and tired of not being heard? Retrouvaille can help with that.


But isn't this just your interpretation? 

I understand we have only one side, but according to the OP, she went to law school, but did not like being a lawyer so left the field to become a writer. So I am not sure it is fair to compare her taking on jobs to help the family to a high flying law career when she left that track because she did not like it.

Also, they spent their savings to support that. And while she has had some success, it is clearly not without some cost to their financial situation (they don't have enough to continue that investment). While things may not be perfect, that sure sounds like he listened to her and then took actual steps to support her. But when it is time for her to step up, she is resentful. So again, where is the partnership?


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Blonde said:


> ^^ unfaithful heart
> 
> If it was me and I found out my Christian husband was listening to advice like this, my lawyer degree would come in handy for getting the divorce papers filled out. :FIREdevil:


So it is ok for the wife to make herself more attractive for other men but not ok for Bagdon to make himself more attractive for other woman? 

He wants to fix himself for himself and her. Who does she want to fix herself for? I see him trying to fix his marriage. Time will tell if she wants to. For his sake I hope so.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

bagdon said:


> As soon as the lady started hearing me and said she wasn't on anyone's side , my wife seemed to throw up her hands and was ready to end the sessions and the marriage. All this was when we were living in the "big city".
> Anyway, Deep down I don't feel my wife has an unfaithful heart...she may just need to be heard.


Perhaps you hear her, but ignore what you are hearing.

If you posts are correct, she has never been happy in any location. She has not been happy with you for some time, and she is not happy about counseling that does not involve you being at fault and her being the victim. 

Consider that she is just not happy, and you are punching bag to take it out on. So quit trying. You can't make her happy, so don't try. Make it clear why you are no longer trying. Be calm, clear and unemotional, but tell her that while you are ready to be a husband, she needs to figure out herself how to be happy. Then go be happy on you own. Invite her to join you, but don't stop is she does not.


----------



## Rollin

read this. does it apply to you?

DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?


----------



## anchorwatch

Blonde, That is not the concept. 

The idea is to clean up your side of the street and to improve yourself in all areas of your life. 

To know you can change only yourself, not others. 

To be more confidant as an individual, in that you have recognized your failings and can change them, to make a better life for yourself and your family. 

To know you have made yourself as well a person you can be. 

To understand that even if your spouse still does not chose you, you as a person will be better, with or without them. 

There is no unfaithfulness in these thoughts. Quite the contrary, as you have presented yourself to them as the best partner you can be.


----------



## Blonde

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> So it is ok for the wife to make herself more attractive for other men


^^your assumption.

Like I said, I took off my rings and got fit for ME. I'll never be with another man- it's my husband or old maid granny. "If I can't have you, I don't want nobody baby". But I'll be a fit, good lookin old maid granny because I want to for ME

Oh and I gave away my engagement ring to my son when he got married. There was so much betrayal attached to the broken vows that I didn't want the ring anymore. It had "Christ the Center" engraved in it because Christ was supposed to be the center of our marriage. The diamond was in the center with sapphires on each side.

Husband says it hurt his feelings that I gave it away. Well, his harem of naked pictures, strippers, young asian prostitute (when we were MISSIONARIES ), and later young shacked up mother of 4 hurt mine.

Should he pursue his prodigal streak, I will hold my head up high, be strong, be fit, look good, have a thriving career. 

Let's just say I don't think choosing a harem over the aging mother of his children would be as rewarding for him as some of the men on here seem to think (link).


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Blonde said:


> ^^your assumption.
> 
> Like I said, I took off my rings and got fit for ME. I'll never be with another man- it's my husband or old maid granny. "If I can't have you, I don't want nobody baby". But I'll be a fit, good lookin old maid granny because I want to for ME
> 
> Oh and I gave away my engagement ring to my son when he got married. There was so much betrayal attached to the broken vows that I didn't want the ring anymore. It had "Christ the Center" engraved in it because Christ was supposed to be the center of our marriage. The diamond was in the center with sapphires on each side.
> 
> Husband says it hurt his feelings that I gave it away. Well, his harem of naked pictures, strippers, young asian prostitute (when we were MISSIONARIES ), and later young shacked up mother of 4 hurt mine.
> 
> Should he pursue his prodigal streak, I will hold my head up high, be strong, be fit, look good, have a thriving career.
> 
> Let's just say I don't think choosing a harem over the aging mother of his children would be as rewarding for him as some of the men on here seem to think (link).


^^your assumption... Really? i am only going on what SHE wrote...


----------



## Blonde

anchorwatch said:


> Blonde, That is not the concept.
> 
> The idea is to clean up your side of the street and to improve yourself in all areas of your life.
> 
> To know you can change only yourself, not others.
> 
> To be more confidant as an individual, in that you have recognized your failings and can change them, to make a better life for yourself and your family.
> 
> To know you have made yourself as well a person you can be.
> 
> To understand that even if your spouse still does not chose you, you as a person will be better, with or without them.
> 
> There is no unfaithfulness in these thoughts. Quite the contrary, as you have presented yourself to them as the best partner you can be.


^^ agree with this. BTDT

I'm all for self-improvement and self respect regardless of the choices one's spouse makes.

However, if one professes to be a Christian, cleaning up one's own side of the street should involve eliminating images and daydreams of others from between one's ears- the exact opposite of what several on here have advocated.


----------



## Blonde

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> ^^i am only going on what SHE wrote...


She wrote about OM? Nope!
You ASSUME she is getting fit and took off ring to attract OM.

Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. Her husband is going to have to communicate with her to find out what is motivating her actions...


----------



## Blonde

Peace, out, all. Have to go to get pork for DD grad party and then go to work.

Enjoyed the conversation and it helped me to revisit my own resolve to be strong and happy. Thanks 

Praying for you and your wife, bagdon.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Blonde said:


> She wrote about OM? Nope!
> You ASSUME she is getting fit and took off ring to attract OM.
> 
> Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. Her husband is going to have to communicate with her to find out what is motivating her actions...


She clearly wrote about other men. This is what Bagdon wrote in quotes: 

"* she's been working out for a few years now and has really trimmed her figure from the baby fat. (she looks good)* I know now that she was not doing it for me and she wanted to attract men.(very hurtful)*
*I know because on a few occasions she wrote about how horney she was feeling and was looking for passion and toe curling sex and how she had been fanticizing about other (sexy) men she was around. (that hurt me and made me angry because I was "begging" for sex! she makes me feel like I'm just a terrible lover.*"

Yes I assumed about the ring. I gladly admit that. In the totality of this thread I stand by that assumption. Your personal experiences notwithstanding.


----------



## anchorwatch

Blonde said:


> ^^ agree with this. BTDT
> 
> I'm all for self-improvement and self respect regardless of the choices one's spouse makes.
> 
> However, if one professes to be a Christian, cleaning up one's own side of the street should involve eliminating images and daydreams of others from between one's ears- the exact opposite of what several on here have advocated.


I do not wish to argue what does or does not constitute immoral thoughts. You have made your point of view as have others. I see no problem in presenting different views of the future to the OP for his examination. I do not under estimate his decision making process.


----------



## bagdon

anchorwatch said:


> Blonde, That is not the concept.
> 
> The idea is to clean up your side of the street and to improve yourself in all areas of your life.
> 
> To know you can change only yourself, not others.
> 
> To be more confidant as an individual, in that you have recognized your failings and can change them, to make a better life for yourself and your family.
> 
> To know you have made yourself as well a person you can be.
> 
> To understand that even if your spouse still does not chose you, you as a person will be better, with or without them.
> 
> There is no unfaithfulness in these thoughts. Quite the contrary, as you have presented yourself to them as the best partner you can be.


Thanks Anchor...Your words always ground me. I feel better. I can go on now.


----------



## weightlifter

Blonde said:


> #171 too
> Put that image of some 30 somethings in your mind... Get it into your head that IF she ejects SHE WILL BE REPLACED with younger and hotter!
> 
> 
> ^^ unfaithful heart


Hence my emphasis on IF. ONE gigantic if. She has indicated her disrespect of him, her wanting other men. IF SHE PULLS THE TRIGGER...

IF she leaves him he needs to understand that she CAN be replaced. Obviously after healing. Living a full life with a woman who loves him and just happens to fvck his brains out at the same time is the best possible revenge. Passionate kisses that when you look into her eyes she is into you. Passionate sex where she gives herself to you because she loves and trusts you. She is, after all letting you put part of your body inside part of hers and make a big sticky mess. Younger and hotter doesnt hurt.

HIS WIFE has the unfaithful heart.

Who is going to win the race? I'm afraid my money is on his wife honestly. Then again I HOPE I AM WRONG.

regardless of who wins this race. His self improvement is the right road regardless of outcome.

GL OP. Remember. Worst case. YOU WILL BE BETTER!


----------



## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> I think you are on the right track. Unfortunately you will have up and down days. You have to bear it for yourself and your kids.
> 
> How do you propose to ask her about attending MC? What if she dismisses it?


Well, like I said I won't approach her about the marriage until I'm strong enough...my emotional state this morning was proof to me that I'm not ready yet. I'll just keep putting the pieces together and organize a meeting. By the time I do I'll hopefully be ready for whatever reaction she has.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> Well, like I said I won't approach her about the marriage until I'm strong enough...my emotional state this morning was proof to me that I'm not ready yet. I'll just keep putting the pieces together and organize a meeting. By the time I do I'll hopefully be ready for whatever reaction she has.


Good for you brother. Stay strong for you and your family.


----------



## Chaparral

If she actually asks you why you are making changes, tell her you have been doing some self examination and decided to make some changes in your life to make it better for yourself your family and whoever you end up married to.

If she asks what you mean by that, tell her she has obviously been disconnecting from you and the kids and has already moved out of your bedroom. Tell her it looks like her family has plummeted on her list of priorities.


----------



## tom67

chapparal said:


> If she actually asks you why you are making changes, tell her you have been doing some self examination and decided to make some changes in your life to make it better for yourself your family and whoever you end up married to.
> 
> If she asks what you mean by that, tell her she has obviously been disconnecting from you and the kids and has already moved out of your bedroom. Tell her it looks like her family has plummeted on her list of priorities.


:iagree::iagreeerfect.imo.


----------



## bagdon

Okay, Yesterday ended pretty well. My wife and kids picked me up from work.(Our van should be ready by Wednesday) I had completely recovered from my emotional slump by the time they got there, thanks to the talks from all of you and my brother. She was wearing another sun dress, looking really nice; I gave no reaction about how good she looked to me this time. They arrived almost an hour before I was scheduled to leave so everyone hung out in my office. She sat at my desk and started watching MSN news clips on my computer. (yes, I deleted all my trips to TAM on the history before they got there) I removed our engagement pictures from my desk when I started the 180; I'm sure she noticed but showed no reaction to it. She use to always say she didn't like me putting those pictures up; I was blind to the implications of what she was saying due to my "nice guy" condition I guess. Anyway, we were talkative and getting along like good friends. I was upbeat & sociable. I had to leave my office for about 25 minutes just to get out of there for a while...I didn't want to appear too happy she was there. We even made a few stops on the way home picking up stuff for her and the kids. Everything was very relaxed. This morning my oldest daughter went out to the track with me. Everybody seems to be joining in on the fitness routine. My wife has intensified her workouts too; she even gave me advice this morning about not over doing it and giving my body time to recover. We're starting to talk again...light conversation ...but at least we're starting to talk.
My recovery continues. My thoughts were concentrated on my goals for the year as I walked this morning. 1.) make myself as physically fit as possible and maintain that fitness. 2.) Increase my alpha traits and balance my personality 3.) Increase my income and lower my debt. 4.) Grow my business and create wealth.


----------



## Blonde

anchorwatch said:


> I do not wish to argue what does or does not constitute immoral thoughts. You have made your point of view as have others. I see no problem in presenting different views of the future to the OP for his examination. I do not under estimate his decision making process.


Fair enough. Nothing bagdon has posted has raised red flags. But I have seen other posters on here go from devastated about WWA to scr#ewin around in the marriage bed (and posting pictures) when divorce is quite a distance down the road. (And they have multiple TAM cheerleaders encouraging their sexcapades). Odd how they can consider themselves better than the WW somehow? My dad had other women in the marriage bed when mom was gone on her Sweet Adeline trips. It's a terribly selfish and destructive choice for a man to make IMO- *even if* his wife has betrayed him.

To weightlifter. Marriage should not have a "winner" and a "loser". Marriage should be "win-win".

To chapparal 5:51 above. I liked that way of putting it. No promiscous harem talk, no preening over attn from OW. Just communicates "I'm a faithful marrying kinda man and I'm going to be with a faithful marrying kinda woman whether it's you or someone else"


----------



## weightlifter

Blonde said:


> To weightlifter. Marriage should not have a "winner" and a "loser". Marriage should be "win-win".


context win. means she leaves before he is fully completed in his fitness and alpha up process and starts getting some from her INCLUDING PASSION. Dead fish sex does not count.

Has nothing to do with winner or loser. I just get the sense she has 1 foot out already.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

weightlifter said:


> context win. means she leaves before he is fully completed in his fitness and alpha up process and starts getting some from her INCLUDING PASSION. Dead fish sex does not count.
> 
> Has nothing to do with winner or loser. I just get the sense she has 1 foot out already.


INCLUDING no comments about leaving WEDDING pictures out. Yikes.


----------



## bagdon

As we were walking home after my walk/run this morning my daughter asked, quite innocently: 
daughter - "Daddy, Why are you doing all this fitness stuff? Are you getting ready for something?" 
me -"This is for life, my life."
daughter - "Oh...Is that what you were talking about in church when you were thanking God for a process you are going through?"
me - "Yeah sweetie."


----------



## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> INCLUDING no comments about leaving WEDDING pictures out. Yikes.


I hope I'm not reaching but she hadn't been in my office for at least 5 or 6 months and there are plenty of pictures still all around my desk. Also, sense she already is suspicious of me reading her diary I feel she is waiting for me to make another move on our marriage.
She's a smart woman and she's been frustrated with me for years now. I get the feeling that as long as she's stuck with me, in time she won't turn her back when/IF she sees that I have really made a turn to becoming the good man I really am. All I'm doing now is making and presenting a better me as a partner. If she's still done after that we both will be better in the long run.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> I hope I'm not reaching but she hadn't been in my office for at least 5 or 6 months and there are plenty of pictures still all around my desk. Also, sense she already is suspicious of me reading her diary I feel she is waiting for me to make another move on our marriage.
> She's a smart woman and she's been frustrated with me for years now. I get the feeling that as long as she's stuck with me, in time she won't turn her back when/IF she sees that I have really made a turn to becoming the good man I really am. All I'm doing now is making and presenting a better me as a partner. If she's still done after that we both will be better in the long run.


Sounds like a good positive plan.


----------



## LostViking

weightlifter said:


> context win. means she leaves before he is fully completed in his fitness and alpha up process and starts getting some from her INCLUDING PASSION. Dead fish sex does not count.
> 
> Has nothing to do with winner or loser. I just get the sense she has 1 foot out already.


This is where my thoughts are leading. I have a different take on all this. 

I do not think Bagdon is any more Beta than any guy on this forum. I would surmise he has a mixture of Alpha and Beta like 75% of most men. 

If we go by Bagdon's descriptions of his wife's behavior, what I see is basically just an emotionally lazy, self-centered, entitled wife. She is not happy...because she has never chosen to be happy.

The one undeniable truth that has escaped this woman for most of her life, is that happiness is a choice. It s not something that is supplied to you by a spouse or lover.

She reminds me of a daydreaming schoolgirl who read too many Harlequin Romances, waiting for that "perfect" man to come along and sweep her off her feet and transport her out of her mundane life to a land where the money grows on trees, and constant romance and passion fil every moment of the day.

Bagdon, get in shape, make those personal and financial goals happen, but DO NOT change who you are. Do not become an unfriendly d!ckwad to impress your emotionaly lazy wife, and especially not just because some people on this board equate friendliness and compassion with being "beta."


----------



## LostViking

bagdon said:


> I hope I'm not reaching but she hadn't been in my office for at least 5 or 6 months and there are plenty of pictures still all around my desk. Also, sense she already is suspicious of me reading her diary I feel she is waiting for me to make another move on our marriage.
> She's a smart woman and she's been frustrated with me for years now. I get the feeling that as long as she's stuck with me, in time she won't turn her back when/IF she sees that I have really made a turn to becoming the good man I really am. All I'm doing now is making and presenting a better me as a partner. If she's still done after that we both will be better in the long run.


This seems very one sided. You sure like building her up and telling everyone how smart and wonderful she is...

Does she ever do this for you? How does she talk about you in public. Does she build you up to other people or tear you down..

You talk about changing your behaviors to please her so she won't be frustrated with you...

Well, what if you make ALL those changes...and it is still not enough for her? You see it all goes back to choosing happiness. 

No amouint of improvements you could ever make will be enough, until your wife takes responsibility for her own happiness. Can you not see that?

When are you going to require her to make the changes you need her to make? When does she get called on the carpet for her dodgy behavior and bad life choices.

You are in a one-sided marriage my friend. I don't see this panning out.


----------



## bagdon

LostViking said:


> This seems very one sided. You sure like building her up and telling everyone how smart and wonderful she is...
> 
> Does she ever do this for you? How does she talk about you in public. Does she build you up to other people or tear you down..
> 
> You talk about changing your behaviors to please her so she won't be frustrated with you...
> 
> Well, what if you make ALL those changes...and it is still not enough for her? You see it all goes back to choosing happiness.
> 
> No amouint of improvements you could ever make will be enough, until your wife takes responsibility for her own happiness. Can you not see that?
> 
> When are you going to require her to make the changes you need her to make? When does she get called on the carpet for her dodgy behavior and bad life choices.
> 
> You are in a one-sided marriage my friend. I don't see this panning out.


I hear you. I can see based on what I've written how she can look very selfish and hurtful. However, there are variables in our marriage that I haven't disclosed yet. (I will)
I'm not here to be the self righteous Good Guy or the martyr. I'm here to save my marriage. I'm not here to say well I gave it my best shot...Oh well. No, I'm in it to win it. When I say *win it * I mean me my wife and my children are all happy, fulfilled and living prosperous good lives...TOGETHER. My vows to God and my promise to her are still very real to me. I got married with my eyes wide open and I knew then that both of us were no where near perfect. Some days I may tilt too far one way and the next I'll be at the other end but I'm working on balance thanks to you all. So I will protect and love my wife throughout this transitional period of my life. She doesn't have to love me right now (and that hurts so bad) But this is the most usable and practical help I have received in my life and GOD KNOWS I am thankful for it. Yes, I need to and will call her out and let her take a look in the mirror. I believe she will once I regain authority in myself as her husband. I'm her husband and I'm their father so I take responsibility for this family. I know the woman and she's not a fool. She's my wife. That being said I'm preparing myself for whatever choice she makes...I've made mine and I'm all-in to being a better man. You all are the best! Now if I'm on here later on tonight crying and falling apart just know that I've tilted too far yet again. 
I can only control my actions; I can handle whatever happens.


----------



## LostViking

Again, it's okay to want happiness for your wife and family, but providing them happiness is not your job. Your job is to provide your wife and children with food, shelter, clothing and a safe environment that is peaceful and promotes the pursuit of happiness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

LostViking said:


> This seems very one sided. You sure like building her up and telling everyone how smart and wonderful she is...
> 
> Does she ever do this for you? How does she talk about you in public. Does she build you up to other people or tear you down..
> 
> You talk about changing your behaviors to please her so she won't be frustrated with you...
> 
> Well, what if you make ALL those changes...and it is still not enough for her? You see it all goes back to choosing happiness.
> 
> No amouint of improvements you could ever make will be enough, until your wife takes responsibility for her own happiness. Can you not see that?
> 
> When are you going to require her to make the changes you need her to make? When does she get called on the carpet for her dodgy behavior and bad life choices.
> 
> You are in a one-sided marriage my friend. I don't see this panning out.
> 
> 
> 
> bagdon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hear you. I can see based on what I've written how she can look very selfish and hurtful. However, there are variables in our marriage that I haven't disclosed yet. (I will)
> I'm not here to be the self righteous Good Guy or the martyr. I'm here to save my marriage. I'm not here to say well I gave it my best shot...Oh well. No, I'm in it to win it. When I say *win it * I mean me my wife and my children are all happy, fulfilled and living prosperous good lives...TOGETHER. My vows to God and my promise to her are still very real to me. I got married with my eyes wide open and I knew then that both of us were no where near perfect. Some days I may tilt too far one way and the next I'll be at the other end but I'm working on balance thanks to you all. So I will protect and love my wife throughout this transitional period of my life. She doesn't have to love me right now (and that hurts so bad) But this is the most usable and practical help I have received in my life and GOD KNOWS I am thankful for it. Yes, I need to and will call her out and let her take a look in the mirror. I believe she will once I regain authority in myself as her husband. I'm her husband and I'm their father so I take responsibility for this family. I know the woman and she's not a fool. She's my wife. That being said I'm preparing myself for whatever choice she makes...I've made mine and I'm all-in to being a better man. You all are the best! Now if I'm on here later on tonight crying and falling apart just know that I've tilted too far yet again.
> I can only control my actions; I can handle whatever happens.
Click to expand...

I'm inferring from your response that she has not been supportive of you or built you up. Is that true, and if so is it just recent or for your whole marriage?


----------



## bagdon

LostViking said:


> Again, it's okay to want happiness for your wife and family, but providing them happiness is not your job. Your job is to provide your wife and children with food, shelter, clothing and a safe environment that is peaceful and promotes the pursuit of happiness.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I get it Lostviking. She's got to chose to be happy. She's going to choose to be happy with or without me. That's her choice. I get it. I'm working on all those things that I've been learning here that will make me the man I want/need to be. From that point I believe everything will fall into place. I'm not giving up on her...she's going to have to make great effort to give up on me.


----------



## bagdon

Nucking Futs said:


> I'm inferring from your response that she has not been supportive of you or built you up. Is that true, and if so is it just recent or for your whole marriage?


I don't recall saying that she has not been supportive of me or built me up. Early in our marriage she was very supportive of my business ambitions. She still is behind me on but more so from a distance now. ( I can explain more about that later)


----------



## Blonde

bagdon said:


> I hear you. I can see based on what I've written how she can look very selfish and hurtful. However, there are variables in our marriage that I haven't disclosed yet. (I will)
> I'm not here to be the self righteous Good Guy or the martyr. I'm here to save my marriage. I'm not here to say well I gave it my best shot...Oh well. No, I'm in it to win it. When I say *win it * I mean me my wife and my children are all happy, fulfilled and living prosperous good lives...TOGETHER. My vows to God and my promise to her are still very real to me. I got married with my eyes wide open and I knew then that both of us were no where near perfect. Some days I may tilt too far one way and the next I'll be at the other end but I'm working on balance thanks to you all. So I will protect and love my wife throughout this transitional period of my life. She doesn't have to love me right now (and that hurts so bad) But this is the most usable and practical help I have received in my life and GOD KNOWS I am thankful for it. Yes, I need to and will call her out and let her take a look in the mirror. I believe she will once I regain authority in myself as her husband. I'm her husband and I'm their father so I take responsibility for this family. I know the woman and she's not a fool. She's my wife. That being said I'm preparing myself for whatever choice she makes...I've made mine and I'm all-in to being a better man. You all are the best! Now if I'm on here later on tonight crying and falling apart just know that I've tilted too far yet again.
> I can only control my actions; I can handle whatever happens.


^^WOW, bagdon! What a heart shines through

She'd be a fool to let a man such a heart get away

May your tribe increase!


----------



## Nucking Futs

bagdon said:


> *I don't recall saying that she has not been supportive of me or built me up.* Early in our marriage she was very supportive of my business ambitions. She still is behind me on but more so from a distance now. ( I can explain more about that later)


Thus why I inferred it. You didn't say she had, either.

When you explain more about it later tell us about her being supportive on a personal as well as business level, if she has. Give us some examples of times she's backed you to her friends and family.


----------



## LostViking

Blonde said:


> ^^WOW, bagdon! What a heart shines through
> 
> She'd be a fool to let a man such a heart get away
> 
> May your tribe increase!


My thoughts exactly. Bagdon is a catch. There are lots of single and divorced women who would pursue him if they discovered he was divorced or getting ready to. His wife doesn't get this because she has taken him for granted for so long.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

LostViking said:


> This is where my thoughts are leading. I have a different take on all this.
> 
> I do not think Bagdon is any more Beta than any guy on this forum. I would surmise he has a mixture of Alpha and Beta like 75% of most men.
> 
> If we go by Bagdon's descriptions of his wife's behavior, what I see is basically just an emotionally lazy, self-centered, entitled wife. She is not happy...because she has never chosen to be happy.
> 
> The one undeniable truth that has escaped this woman for most of her life, is that happiness is a choice. It s not something that is supplied to you by a spouse or lover.
> 
> She reminds me of a daydreaming schoolgirl who read too many Harlequin Romances, waiting for that "perfect" man to come along and sweep her off her feet and transport her out of her mundane life to a land where the money grows on trees, and constant romance and passion fil every moment of the day.
> 
> Bagdon, get in shape, make those personal and financial goals happen, but DO NOT change who you are. Do not become an unfriendly d!ckwad to impress your emotionaly lazy wife, and especially not just because some people on this board equate friendliness and compassion with being "beta."


*If this is true here is a post about making ones own happiness. Bagdon should print this off, read it and leave it laying around some where so his wife can also read it * BTW you may want to edit it first if necessary, I already removed a reference to MMSLP


Carmens Rules for Happiness
_originally posted by carmen ohio:

While I greatly respect the other posters on this thread, I believe many of them, like you, are missing the big picture here -- namely, what should you do to regain your happiness.

From reading your notes, it is clear that you were absent from class the day they handed out the "how to be happy" instructions. So let me fill you in on The 10 Rules for Happiness:

Rule No. 1: You only get one life; never forget that. Corollary: You don't know how long you will live, you could live another 50 years or you might die tomorrow; never forget that either.

Rule No. 2: Deal with things as they really are, not as you would like them to be. Face up to your problems rather than pretending they don't exist or hoping they will simply go away.

Rule No. 3: You are solely responsible for your own happiness: don't expect or look to others to make you happy.

Rule No. 4: Your decisions and actions will have the greatest impact on your happiness. If you do the right things, your life will be better and vice versa. Corollary: Be honest with yourself about your failings and genuinely seek to improve yourself.

Rule No. 5: There is no guarantee that you will always be happy: some people win life's lottery, most don't and some people get the shaft. Corollary 1: Don't complain about the cards you are dealt or wallow in self-pity. Instead, focus on what you can control and learn not to worry about the rest. Corollary 2: Understand that it sometimes takes time and effort to regain your happiness.

Rule No. 6: Understand what makes you happy and what doesn't. Corollary 1: Since you will change over time, reconsider from time to time what will make you happy now and adjust your decisions and actions accordingly. Corollary 2: When something happens that makes you very unhappy, consider the totality of the situation: sometimes cutting down a few trees is the answer, other times you need to look for a new forest in which to live.

Rule No. 7: Do what makes you happy. Don't do what others (parents, friends, bosses, spouses, even children) want you to do unless it is what makes you happy. This might sound selfish but it's not. Some people are happiest when they are serving others (e.g., firemen, Mother Teresa). 

Rule No. 8: If you are unhappy about something, eliminate it from your life or, if that is not possible, minimize the degree of unhappiness it can cause you. If it's a situation (like a bad job), change it. If it's a thing (like a poorly operating car), get rid of it. If it's a person (like a wayward spouse), stop interacting or least minimize contact with the person. Corollary: When something or someone starts to cause you unhappiness, take action immediately; don't wait around hoping things will get better.

Rule No. 9: You don't apologize to anyone for doing what makes you happy. Corollary: You have no obligation to explain yourself or justify your decisions or actions. If you choose to do so, it should only be because it is to your advantage to do so.

Rule No. 10: Be the best person you can be, as you measure things. For most men, this means being fit and attractive to members of the opposite sex, being financially successfully and being emotionally strong and independent. But if you measure life success differently (e.g., displaying Christian virtues, gaining notoriety, acquiring power), then make these the main focus of you efforts.

If we apply these rules to your situation, it become readily apparent that you are breaking all the rules. For example:

☻ You are focused in the moment rather than thinking about how you want to live the rest of your life (violation of Rule No. 1). 

☻ You are more concerned about what your W may or may not have done rather than dealing with what you know she has done (violation of Rule No. 2).

☻ You seek affirmation from your W of your self-worth and the guidance of strangers as to what you should do, rather than taking responsibility for yourself (violation of Rule Nos. 3, 4 and 9).

☻ You are reluctant to take steps to improve your situation and instead are wallowing in self-pity and shame (violation of Rule Nos. 5, 7, 8 and 10).

☻ You seem not to have thought deeply about what you really want out of life (violation of Rule No. 6). 

☻ You reject the notion that your life may have to radically change in order for you to (eventually) be happy (another violation of Rule No. 6).

Based on the facts as you have recited them, I believe you have ample reason to be unhappy in your current circumstances and sufficient justification for taking action. So let me offer you an alternative approach to your problem that is consistent with the Rules of Happiness:

1. Sit your W down and tell her that you are so unhappy with your marriage that you are prepared to end it. Explain that, given what you know (OM's note, her hiding her phone messages, etc.), you can only conclude that either she is having an affair or that she doesn't care about you (as these are the only two reasons why she would not have taken steps to address your concerns when you first raised them). Say that, in either case, you would rather end your marriage than continue it since you deserve and are confident that you can have better than what you have right now.

2. Tell her that, out of love for her and your children, you are willing to give her one last chance to save her marriage and prove to you that she is a worthy wife. This requires her telling you everything that has happened between her and her boss, showing you all of her e-mails and text messages, giving you access to all of her communications in the future, immediately terminating all contact with her boss, demonstrating by word and deed on a daily basis that she loves and respects you and doing whatever else you require for her to prove her worth.

3. Tell her that it is her choice whether to do these things or not but, if she chooses not to, you plan to hire an attorney and file for divorce.

4. Stay calm and collected and don't argue with her. If she questions or challenges anything you say, calmly reply that she now knows what you expect of her and it is up to her to decide what she wants to do. Repeat your message as many times as necessary until she realizes that you mean what you say.

5. Give her a very short period of time to consider this. For example, tell her that you plan to speak to an attorney the next day so, if she wants to save her marriage, she has but a few hours to accept your offer.

6. If she refuses, immediately speak to an attorney and commence divorce proceedings.

7. If she agrees, continue to monitor her closely to make sure she does not go underground. Don't tolerate her complaining or pouting for more than a couple of days. If you get any indication that she is not serious about following through with her promise, start divorce proceedings.

8. For the foreseeable future, be cordial toward your W but nothing more. Don't initiate conversations, compliment her, argue with her or do anything else that would lead her to believe that she is anything special to you. Act at all times like a man who knows what he wants and knows that he can get what he wants, if not from her, then somewhere else.

9. Begin to take steps to improve yourself (exercise, work, activities). Make this -- along with your kids -- the focus of your life for now.

10. Start to educate yourself on what it takes to be a man in the 21st century. 

If you take these steps, I can't guarantee that you will end up in a happy marriage with your current W but I can promise that, eventually, you will give yourself the greatest chance of finding true happiness. The key point is that you can't control your W but you can control you. Hence, you should be doing the things that will eventually make you happy, whether your W wants to be with you or not.

I'm not saying any of this will be easy; it may be the hardest thing you will ever have to do. But unless you do it, your life will likely only get worse.

Wishing the best for you. 
_


----------



## bagdon

LostViking said:


> My thoughts exactly. Bagdon is a catch. There are lots of single and divorced women who would pursue him if they discovered he was divorced or getting ready to. His wife doesn't get this because she has taken him for granted for so long.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, she's taken me for granted lately but I've taken her for granted too.
The undisclosed variables:
*Business*
Early on in my company my wife would make creative suggestions and recommend IMO at the time "risky" things I should do. My mind set was, you don't understand how this business works; that'll never work; To do that I'll have to quit my job and we need that right now; FEAR! All of my reactions and responses were based on fear of failure and I would consistently dismiss her challenge to do more every time. During an argument finally she told me she was not interested in saying anything else to me about "my" company because I gave her the same look like "that doesn't make sense" all the time. The company is still struggling today. Another factor was without realizing it I had an emotional affair with a younger woman that worked closely with me at my job, at the church we attended and on occasion with my company; I didn't realize it until my wife came out and asked me one day "are you having an affair with her!?" Of course I said no and blew it off but I learned years later that I had indeed connected with another woman in an inappropriate way because I talked more to her than my wife. The young woman was very attractive and I could tell she liked me. I was attracted to her too but I knew I would never betray my wife. 
More to come...


----------



## Blonde

LostViking said:


> There are lots of single and divorced women who would pursue him if they discovered he was divorced or getting ready to. His wife doesn't get this because she has taken him for granted for so long.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


^^not a catch.

What I am seeing that I like in bagdon is the humility, the taking responsibility for ways he has rejected his wife's attempt to be part of his team, and his resolve to be a good husband and father with a "win-win" marriage.

The ****y PUA I'm God's gift to slvtty women crapola-->:bsflag:

Confidence and self respect-yes
****y swaggering-blech


----------



## LostViking

Blonde said:


> ^^not a catch.
> 
> What I am seeing that I like in bagdon is the humility, the taking responsibility for ways he has rejected his wife's attempt to be part of his team, and his resolve to be a good husband and father with a "win-win" marriage.
> 
> The ****y PUA I'm God's gift to slvtty women crapola-->:bsflag:
> 
> Confidence and self respect-yes
> ****y swaggering-blech



Tell us then, o enlightened one, what are his wife's responsibilities?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

What does PUA mean?


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> Yeah, she's taken me for granted lately but I've taken her for granted too.
> The undisclosed variables:
> *Business*
> Early on in my company my wife would make creative suggestions and recommend IMO at the time "risky" things I should do. My mind set was, you don't understand how this business works; that'll never work; To do that I'll have to quit my job and we need that right now; FEAR! All of my reactions and responses were based on fear of failure and I would consistently dismiss her challenge to do more every time. During an argument finally she told me she was not interested in saying anything else to me about "my" company because I gave her the same look like "that doesn't make sense" all the time. The company is still struggling today. Another factor was without realizing it I had an emotional affair with a younger woman that worked closely with me at my job, at the church we attended and on occasion with my company; I didn't realize it until my wife came out and asked me one day "are you having an affair with her!?" Of course I said no and blew it off but I learned years later that I had indeed connected with another woman in an inappropriate way because I talked more to her than my wife. The young woman was very attractive and I could tell she liked me. I was attracted to her too but I knew I would never betray my wife.
> More to come...


Did you and your wife ever resolve this emotional affair you had with this subordinate or was it completely swept under the rug? Does your wife harbor resentment over this affair?


----------



## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Did you and your wife ever resolve this emotional affair you had with this subordinate or was it completely swept under the rug? Does your wife harbor resentment over this affair?


Swept under the rug...I'm fairly sure she does harbor some resentment to some degree. Don't know though. This happened when my first daughter was around 4 or 5. My wife still had a lot of the baby weight on so she was probably feeling unattractive too. I'm sure the way I would stay late at work all the time and my "nice guy condition" contributed to probably making her feel unwanted by me. I'm just now realizing that. So this thing goes deep.


----------



## LostViking

bagdon said:


> Swept under the rug...I'm fairly sure she does harbor some resentment to some degree. Don't know though. This happened when my first daughter was around 4 or 5. My wife still had a lot of the baby weight on so she was probably feeling unattractive too. I'm sure the way I would stay late at work all the time and my "nice guy condition" contributed to probably making her feel unwanted by me. *I'm just now realizing that. So this thing goes deep.*


Hmmm. Ya think?

Would have been nice if you had clued us all in on that little detail before we tore your wife a new one.


----------



## bagdon

LostViking said:


> Hmmm. Ya think?
> 
> Would have been nice if you had clued us all in on that little detail before we tore your wife a new one.


Sorry bout that. I'm feeling my way through this thing too. It's starting to make sense as I learn more about myself and continue the process of change.
I'll be adding more about an incident that happened last night later on today; and more of the "variables"


----------



## bagdon

Chaparral said:


> *If this is true here is a post about making ones own happiness. Bagdon should print this off, read it and leave it laying around some where so his wife can also read it * BTW you may want to edit it first if necessary, I already removed a reference to MMSLP
> 
> 
> Carmens Rules for Happiness
> _originally posted by carmen ohio:
> 
> While I greatly respect the other posters on this thread, I believe many of them, like you, are missing the big picture here -- namely, what should you do to regain your happiness.
> 
> From reading your notes, it is clear that you were absent from class the day they handed out the "how to be happy" instructions. So let me fill you in on The 10 Rules for Happiness:
> 
> Rule No. 1: You only get one life; never forget that. Corollary: You don't know how long you will live, you could live another 50 years or you might die tomorrow; never forget that either.
> 
> Rule No. 2: Deal with things as they really are, not as you would like them to be. Face up to your problems rather than pretending they don't exist or hoping they will simply go away.
> 
> Rule No. 3: You are solely responsible for your own happiness: don't expect or look to others to make you happy.
> 
> Rule No. 4: Your decisions and actions will have the greatest impact on your happiness. If you do the right things, your life will be better and vice versa. Corollary: Be honest with yourself about your failings and genuinely seek to improve yourself.
> 
> Rule No. 5: There is no guarantee that you will always be happy: some people win life's lottery, most don't and some people get the shaft. Corollary 1: Don't complain about the cards you are dealt or wallow in self-pity. Instead, focus on what you can control and learn not to worry about the rest. Corollary 2: Understand that it sometimes takes time and effort to regain your happiness.
> 
> Rule No. 6: Understand what makes you happy and what doesn't. Corollary 1: Since you will change over time, reconsider from time to time what will make you happy now and adjust your decisions and actions accordingly. Corollary 2: When something happens that makes you very unhappy, consider the totality of the situation: sometimes cutting down a few trees is the answer, other times you need to look for a new forest in which to live.
> 
> Rule No. 7: Do what makes you happy. Don't do what others (parents, friends, bosses, spouses, even children) want you to do unless it is what makes you happy. This might sound selfish but it's not. Some people are happiest when they are serving others (e.g., firemen, Mother Teresa).
> 
> Rule No. 8: If you are unhappy about something, eliminate it from your life or, if that is not possible, minimize the degree of unhappiness it can cause you. If it's a situation (like a bad job), change it. If it's a thing (like a poorly operating car), get rid of it. If it's a person (like a wayward spouse), stop interacting or least minimize contact with the person. Corollary: When something or someone starts to cause you unhappiness, take action immediately; don't wait around hoping things will get better.
> 
> Rule No. 9: You don't apologize to anyone for doing what makes you happy. Corollary: You have no obligation to explain yourself or justify your decisions or actions. If you choose to do so, it should only be because it is to your advantage to do so.
> 
> Rule No. 10: Be the best person you can be, as you measure things. For most men, this means being fit and attractive to members of the opposite sex, being financially successfully and being emotionally strong and independent. But if you measure life success differently (e.g., displaying Christian virtues, gaining notoriety, acquiring power), then make these the main focus of you efforts.
> 
> If we apply these rules to your situation, it become readily apparent that you are breaking all the rules. For example:
> 
> ☻ You are focused in the moment rather than thinking about how you want to live the rest of your life (violation of Rule No. 1).
> 
> ☻ You are more concerned about what your W may or may not have done rather than dealing with what you know she has done (violation of Rule No. 2).
> 
> ☻ You seek affirmation from your W of your self-worth and the guidance of strangers as to what you should do, rather than taking responsibility for yourself (violation of Rule Nos. 3, 4 and 9).
> 
> ☻ You are reluctant to take steps to improve your situation and instead are wallowing in self-pity and shame (violation of Rule Nos. 5, 7, 8 and 10).
> 
> ☻ You seem not to have thought deeply about what you really want out of life (violation of Rule No. 6).
> 
> ☻ You reject the notion that your life may have to radically change in order for you to (eventually) be happy (another violation of Rule No. 6).
> 
> Based on the facts as you have recited them, I believe you have ample reason to be unhappy in your current circumstances and sufficient justification for taking action. So let me offer you an alternative approach to your problem that is consistent with the Rules of Happiness:
> 
> 1. Sit your W down and tell her that you are so unhappy with your marriage that you are prepared to end it. Explain that, given what you know (OM's note, her hiding her phone messages, etc.), you can only conclude that either she is having an affair or that she doesn't care about you (as these are the only two reasons why she would not have taken steps to address your concerns when you first raised them). Say that, in either case, you would rather end your marriage than continue it since you deserve and are confident that you can have better than what you have right now.
> 
> 2. Tell her that, out of love for her and your children, you are willing to give her one last chance to save her marriage and prove to you that she is a worthy wife. This requires her telling you everything that has happened between her and her boss, showing you all of her e-mails and text messages, giving you access to all of her communications in the future, immediately terminating all contact with her boss, demonstrating by word and deed on a daily basis that she loves and respects you and doing whatever else you require for her to prove her worth.
> 
> 3. Tell her that it is her choice whether to do these things or not but, if she chooses not to, you plan to hire an attorney and file for divorce.
> 
> 4. Stay calm and collected and don't argue with her. If she questions or challenges anything you say, calmly reply that she now knows what you expect of her and it is up to her to decide what she wants to do. Repeat your message as many times as necessary until she realizes that you mean what you say.
> 
> 5. Give her a very short period of time to consider this. For example, tell her that you plan to speak to an attorney the next day so, if she wants to save her marriage, she has but a few hours to accept your offer.
> 
> 6. If she refuses, immediately speak to an attorney and commence divorce proceedings.
> 
> 7. If she agrees, continue to monitor her closely to make sure she does not go underground. Don't tolerate her complaining or pouting for more than a couple of days. If you get any indication that she is not serious about following through with her promise, start divorce proceedings.
> 
> 8. For the foreseeable future, be cordial toward your W but nothing more. Don't initiate conversations, compliment her, argue with her or do anything else that would lead her to believe that she is anything special to you. Act at all times like a man who knows what he wants and knows that he can get what he wants, if not from her, then somewhere else.
> 
> 9. Begin to take steps to improve yourself (exercise, work, activities). Make this -- along with your kids -- the focus of your life for now.
> 
> 10. Start to educate yourself on what it takes to be a man in the 21st century.
> 
> If you take these steps, I can't guarantee that you will end up in a happy marriage with your current W but I can promise that, eventually, you will give yourself the greatest chance of finding true happiness. The key point is that you can't control your W but you can control you. Hence, you should be doing the things that will eventually make you happy, whether your W wants to be with you or not.
> 
> I'm not saying any of this will be easy; it may be the hardest thing you will ever have to do. But unless you do it, your life will likely only get worse.
> 
> Wishing the best for you.
> _


This was not helpful...felt more like a debate rebut.


----------



## Blonde

LostViking said:


> Tell us then, o enlightened one, what are his wife's responsibilities?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


^^Is there an "Ignore" feature on this forum?

I unsubscribed from the thread because of the all male following and what comes across to me as disrespect toward women from some posters but bagdon asked me to re-subscribe


----------



## Blonde

bagdon,

I'll try to bite my fingers when some followers get into the "she can easily be replaced with younger and hotter" mode.

While it's true that life will go on with or without her, she is the mother of your children and your lover of ___years and it distresses me that (some) men can view a long time wife almost like a blow up doll that you can put to the curb and get a new one (or a harem of them ).

I find it a really disrespectful view of women to think that we have no uniqueness and preciousness individually but are just a wet place to put it (as Dr Laura would say).

/vent 

bagdon, you have never once conveyed an attitude like that toward your wife and I can't even tell you how much that blesses me personally.

Whether or not your wife responds, I am confident that your kind attitude is sowing blessing and good fruit in the lives of others (including me  , I feel personally challenged by your example of tenderheartedness toward your wife when you are hurting)


----------



## LostViking

Blonde said:


> ^^Is there an "Ignore" feature on this forum?
> 
> I unsubscribed from the thread because of the all male following and what comes across to me as disrespect toward women from some posters but bagdon asked me to re-subscribe


I wasnt being disrespectful. I was being facetious. There is a difference.

My question being... yes it has been well established Bagdon has come up wanting in his performance as a husband. But at what point is his wife responsible for her own mistakes and apathetic attitude? When will she be held accountable for her role in the death of this relationship. Why is she not held to an equal standard? 

There are those here who are just as irritated by your "female" attitude.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

bagdon said:


> Swept under the rug...I'm fairly sure she does harbor some resentment to some degree. Don't know though. This happened when my first daughter was around 4 or 5. My wife still had a lot of the baby weight on so she was probably feeling unattractive too. I'm sure the way I would stay late at work all the time and my "nice guy condition" contributed to probably making her feel unwanted by me. I'm just now realizing that. So this thing goes deep.


So that needs to be something you address. Figure out a way to get counseling (even if just through a pastor) or get the book Not Just Friends and ask her to read it with you. apologize, admit you were wrong and ask her to help you to work through some of this to help heal her, as well as ensure you two have appropriate boundaries in place going forward.

One difficult aspect about all this is balance. You are here, so the advice you get will be about you cleaning up legitimate issues on your side. Your finances and this emotional affair are two big ones. 

But the other things is holding her accountable for her side. I don't see her being all that interested in a team. Again, it comes across as if you are responsible for making her happy and allowing her to pursue her dreams. But reality hit. She needs to be responsible for her own happiness, she needs to discuss things with you, and she needs to assist in meeting your goals as a couple. If that means getting a job she would prefer not to have so that you two can get into another house sooner, than either she does that or she admits that living next to her MIL is trade off for not taking the job she hates. She needs to be an active participant in your life together.


----------



## anchorwatch

LostViking said:


> My question being... yes it has been well established Bagdon has come up wanting in his performance as a husband. But at what point is his wife responsible for her own mistakes and apathetic attitude? When will she be held accountable for her role in the death of this relationship. Why is she not held to an equal standard?


I don't see that happening within the small amount of time the OP has had to reflect on himself and his relationship. He's barely here two weeks. 

This is a troubled LTR with all of the complications that goes along with it. It will take time for both parties to address all of them. The OP has just started working on his side of the street. He will decide when she will be held accountable for her side. I don't see he has missed this point or needs to take on more than can be handled ATM. 

Each in his own time.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> Swept under the rug...I'm fairly sure she does harbor some resentment to some degree. Don't know though. This happened when my first daughter was around 4 or 5. My wife still had a lot of the baby weight on so she was probably feeling unattractive too. I'm sure the way I would stay late at work all the time and my "nice guy condition" contributed to probably making her feel unwanted by me. I'm just now realizing that. So this thing goes deep.


Bagdon, this is a really big big deal. 

Anything else you left out where she is resentful for a pretty good reason? Not to harp on you but this changes the dynamics quite a bit.


----------



## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Bagdon, this is a really big big deal.
> 
> Anything else you left out where she is resentful for a pretty good reason? Not to harp on you but this changes the dynamics quite a bit.


In the past she has told me that she felt alone in our relationship and I only showed her attention when I wanted sex. (that's how she felt) She would say I didn't spend enough time with the children and she felt like a single parent... I blew it off because I spent a lot of time working and trying to "build wealth & grow my company" I would tell myself this won't last always and she'll appreciate my hard work and long hours when we're in that dream house she's always talking about and we're able to do some of the other things financially fit people do. I counted it all to "paying my dues." 
I was under the assumption that because we were married we both felt bound together forever no matter what.; I understand that a person can only hurt for so long...my threshold for enduring a crumbling marriage just happened to be longer than hers.
My "nice guy syndrome" made it that much worse. My condition really was killing our relationship...I don't know what I could have done in my condition except know I had nice guy syndrome and improve myself. reading her inner most feelings in the diary was the only thing that was able to jolt me into finding help and taking action.
There's more...


----------



## bagdon

The heart beat of this relationship has indeed flat lined. I'm hoping and praying for a miracle. Now that I finally see my mistakes. I still don't know if there was anything I could have done sooner without realizing the kind of guy I was conditioned to be. 
Like I said earlier in this thread, I'm a recovering nice guy. I'm "cleaning my side of the street". I hope we can remain together when it's all said and done.


----------



## bagdon

Lost Viking was close to describing how I felt she was acting through out our marriage in permalink #257.
She would basically announce to me she wanted to leave her job to try something after I'm sure we both verbally agreed we were going to do XX for XX amount of time. Her Actions would destroy those timelines I thought we set together. but I was too "nice guy" to really see what was happening. I was not being a good leader in our partnership. Now I know.


----------



## bagdon

That was part of my logic behind working so much because I wanted to be THE PROVIDER for my family; I would tell her all the time, "I would love for you not to have to work" but we would have to live within our means. At one point we were paying almost $1400.00 a month on private school. I was happy to have my kids in private school but at the same time concerned about maintaining our pace of spending the way my wife threw good paying jobs away.


----------



## bagdon

That's why I always hesitated on launching out with the company because I was never sure if she would "feel like" she needed to be doing something else or want to move....you know she is obsessed with living far from our home town. I don't know, I don't know....yeah, we both made mistakes here. You guys just continue to help me clean myself up okay? I pray God will allow the time we need to communicate and stay together.


----------



## bagdon

Okay, Last night:
My mom calls me over to run a quick errand for her. When I return she asks me how long will we stay If we stay in the house with her after it's renovated. I was embarrassed to say that we hadn't discussed those details yet but that we were just playing it by ear right now. 
My brother has told me that my mom has told him she believes my wife is going to leave me the first opportunity she has. My wife has told me my mother will be controlling and manipulative in our family business. I believe both of them.
My mother continued to say that she didn't mind us living with her and she wanted us to stay as long as we needed and she wanted us to save our money to buy our own home and she wanted blah blah...etc. 
My mind went numb as she was talking to me and I felt a weird feeling of losing control and really being stuck at my mom's house for an indefinite period of time. When I got back to the house I asked my wife had she heard anything back about her job interview. she threw her hands up and said nothing like she wasn't surprised. I asked how much would she earn if she got it? She said it starts at $46k per year. I said, that's good. Then I said, "Here's a thought of the top of my head...If you get the job why don't we stay here for this school term coming up and save some money and the fall of 2014 move." She paused a good 7 or 8 seconds before she responded and seemed to not like what I was saying. She said "ummm... I don't know." I know I broke 180 rule # 5 (Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.)
I felt compelled to say something after that discussion with my mother. Well, I went to bed early last night; I woke up around midnight to find the house totally dark and quiet. I got up and stumbled around in our room in the dark toward the hallway and checked to see if my wife was sleeping in the kid's room again. she wasn't there (everything's still dark) I go on through the house looking for her and she's nowhere to be seen. I go in the kitchen and notice her diary is missing from the stack on the counter I look out the window to see if the car is gone...no, still there I look around outside briefly...where has she gone? I wonder...then I start panicking and getting these crazy thoughts that she has a lover and he picked her up and....I rushed back to our bedroom to call her cell phone; I turned on my lamp and there she was in our bed (still one sheet above mine) her eyebrows furrowed above her closed eyelids when the light hit her face. I slowly turned off the light and laid down. My heart was still beating a hundred miles an hour and I had started to sweat a little. I couldn't believe how bad I lost it. Anyway, later on that morning I looked around to see if she left her diary out in an open area. She had put it back in one of her bags. I know she has had to log another entry in there after my comments earlier. I don't want to know but now it seems she does care if I read it sense it was stuffed away in one of those bags.


----------



## Nucking Futs

bagdon said:


> Okay, Last night:
> My mom calls me over to run a quick errand for her. When I return she asks me how long will we stay If we stay in the house with her after it's renovated. I was embarrassed to say that we hadn't discussed those details yet but that we were just playing it by ear right now.
> My brother has told me that my mom has told him she believes my wife is going to leave me the first opportunity she has. My wife has told me my mother will be controlling and manipulative in our family business. I believe both of them.
> My mother continued to say that she didn't mind us living with her and she wanted us to stay as long as we needed and she wanted us to save our money to buy our own home and she wanted blah blah...etc.
> My mind went numb as she was talking to me and I felt a weird feeling of losing control and really being stuck at my mom's house for an indefinite period of time. When I got back to the house I asked my wife had she heard anything back about her job interview. she threw her hands up and said nothing like she wasn't surprised. I asked how much would she earn if she got it? She said it starts at $46k per year. I said, that's good. Then I said, "Here's a thought of the top of my head...If you get the job why don't we stay here for this school term coming up and save some money and the fall of 2014 move." She paused a good 7 or 8 seconds before she responded and seemed to not like what I was saying. She said "ummm... I don't know." I know I broke 180 rule # 5 (Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.)
> I felt compelled to say something after that discussion with my mother. Well, I went to bed early last night; I woke up around midnight to find the house totally dark and quiet. I got up and stumbled around in our room in the dark toward the hallway and checked to see if my wife was sleeping in the kid's room again. she wasn't there (everything's still dark) I go on through the house looking for her and she's nowhere to be seen. I go in the kitchen and notice her diary is missing from the stack on the counter I look out the window to see if the car is gone...no, still there I look around outside briefly...where has she gone? I wonder...then I start panicking and getting these crazy thoughts that she has a lover and he picked her up and....I rushed back to our bedroom to call her cell phone; I turned on my lamp and there she was in our bed (still one sheet above mine) her eyebrows furrowed above her closed eyelids when the light hit her face. I slowly turned off the light and laid down. My heart was still beating a hundred miles an hour and I had started to sweat a little. I couldn't believe how bad I lost it. Anyway, later on that morning I looked around to see if she left her diary out in an open area. She had put it back in one of her bags. I know she has had to log another entry in there after my comments earlier. I don't want to know but now it seems she does care if I read it sense it was stuffed away in one of those bags.


*LEAVE THE DIARY ALONE!* 



bagdon said:


> Then I said, "Here's a thought of the top of my head...If you get the job why don't we stay here for this school term coming up and save some money and the fall of 2014 move." She paused a good 7 or 8 seconds before she responded and *seemed to not like what I was saying.* She said "ummm... I don't know."


After reading the parts of the diary you've read, and knowing how badly your wife wants to get away from your mother, you go and ask her for another year? What the hell, man? :scratchhead:


----------



## bagdon

Nucking Futs said:


> *LEAVE THE DIARY ALONE!*
> 
> 
> 
> After reading the parts of the diary you've read, and knowing how badly your wife wants to get away from your mother, you go and ask her for another year? What the hell, man? :scratchhead:


It's not like we can pick up and leave now. we have kids too...We need a bit more $ to get out of here.


----------



## bagdon

And I'm not touching the diary.


----------



## Thor

bagdon said:


> The heart beat of this relationship has indeed flat lined. I'm hoping and praying for a miracle. Now that I finally see my mistakes. I still don't know if there was anything I could have done sooner without realizing the kind of guy I was conditioned to be.
> Like I said earlier in this thread, I'm a recovering nice guy. I'm "cleaning my side of the street". I hope we can remain together when it's all said and done.


Ok I am going to toss this out for your reaction.

How about telling her directly what you wrote in that quote? Something to the effect that you value the marriage and you want to fix it. You know you made mistakes in the past for which you are very sorry. You understand how she could have felt alone in the relationship, and you understand how your behaviors could have pushed her away at times. You understand that your friendship with the other woman was too close and was hurtful to your wife. You are making yourself available for her (your wife) to talk about any of these things.


----------



## Thor

bagdon said:


> It's not like we can pick up and leave now. we have kids too...We need a bit more $ to get out of here.


Not true. You are putting a precondition on the type of housing which is acceptable to you. There is bound to be some kind of a rental within your budget, though it may not be as nice as you would like. Perhaps the lesser of two evils is to take such a place for a year.


----------



## Nucking Futs

bagdon said:


> It's not like we can pick up and leave now. we have kids too...We need a bit more $ to get out of here.


You missed my point. You could have said nothing, or you could have said something that would make your wife think you're coming around to her way of thinking. Instead you blew her off again. You're just shooting yourself in the foot with this "lets stay where you don't want to be until I think we have enough money" attitude.

Are you willing to sacrifice to save your marriage?


----------



## bagdon

Nucking Futs said:


> You missed my point. You could have said nothing, or you could have said something that would make your wife think you're coming around to her way of thinking. Instead you blew her off again. You're just shooting yourself in the foot with this "lets stay where you don't want to be until I think we have enough money" attitude.
> 
> Are you willing to sacrifice to save your marriage?


wow...you're right; I'm doing the same thing; I'm depending on her too much to do what I have to do. okay, I'll look at what I can do that will get us out of this living situation. My actions will speak louder than my words. I got caught up in the moment and strayed from the process.
I have sacrificed a lot already for this marriage, unfortunately it was in the wrong paradigm. I tilted too far one way again.... I'm still working on balance. Thanks Nucking Futs.
Don't get me wrong; I'm thankful to be able to have a place to stay but it's not "healthy" for me or my marriage. (Thank you for that nugget Blonde)


----------



## bagdon

Thor said:


> Ok I am going to toss this out for your reaction.
> 
> How about telling her directly what you wrote in that quote? Something to the effect that you value the marriage and you want to fix it. You know you made mistakes in the past for which you are very sorry. You understand how she could have felt alone in the relationship, and you understand how your behaviors could have pushed her away at times. You understand that your friendship with the other woman was too close and was hurtful to your wife. You are making yourself available for her (your wife) to talk about any of these things.


Do you think "Talking" will get me anywhere with her at this point. Man, that thing with the young woman was at least 10 years ago; it's there but it's a side note to the stuff she's probably heaped on top to not love me now.


----------



## bagdon

I'm fixing my side of the street....along with the other details like our living situation and finances that's really all I can do. Then we will both have to make some choices. I'm learning how to discern how to go about it. My brother has recommended I reread First Things First to get things done too. 
When I'm ready, I will introduce MC. I can't concern myself about her possibly "pulling the trigger" first. I've learned that that kind of thought takes me off course and talking to her right now will only raise her shields more...she/I need to have some consistent change.


----------



## whowouldhavethought

bagdon said:


> It's not like we can pick up and leave now. we have kids too...We need a bit more $ to get out of here.


Move to a two bedroom apartment, move into another house. Your wife loathes were you are staying, so be a leader, get you a$$ in gear and

MOVE!​
Do not wait one day. Tell your wife (if it is permissible) to go out and find you guys another place to live. If necessary pull you kids out of a private school, cut out other expenses. Just

MOVE!​
WWHT


----------



## bagdon

Last night...
I finally got our van out of the repair shop so we are now a two car family again. My wife and kids went to church last night. I went straight home from work and began preparing for today (talked to you guys too)
Everyone got home and greeted me after church. I asked my wife how was church and she said good but the way she looked when she said it gave me the impression she felt I was trying to get a reaction or something out of her...anyway....
Well, I retired to bed around 10:30 or 11. a few minutes into falling asleep I hear my wife in the living room laughing really hard; I mean gut busting laughs. I could hear her laughing like that for almost a good 30/40 seconds. I wanted to go in and see what was up but I decided to stay and fain sleep as if I couldn't hear her. Eventually she comes into the bedroom still laughing and I ask what's so funny? She begins to tell me about this Judge Judy episode she was watching on youtube that just tore her up. It was really funny the way she described it and she could barely tell it to me for laughing. I laughed along and really thought it was funny too. I told her I needed to see it too after her description; she actually went back out to the living room and brought her laptop into the bedroom and set beside me to watch it again...she laughed just as hard the second time watching it. Of course I was just happy we had a laugh together; It's been a while sense she's actually initiated something like that with me. (I'll take that as a positive move toward each other)
Oh, she slept completely on top of the covers last night in her panties with her robe on. (She's still making sure I don't get the wrong idea I suppose)


----------



## Blonde

bagdon said:


> I can't concern myself about her possibly "pulling the trigger" first.


^^and Thor 6:35pm

When I was ready to "pull the trigger" it was not constructive at all for my husband to talk divorce, pushed me more in that direction. What made me think maybe it could work between us was when he would comfort and reassure me of his commitment to the marriage, say things like "we're gonna work through this", "we're in this together", "we are so blessed and we can't throw this away"

In our case he was ws though, so I'm not sure it applies since your EA was so long ago?


----------



## bagdon

Blonde said:


> ^^and Thor 6:35pm
> 
> When I was ready to "pull the trigger" it was not constructive at all for my husband to talk divorce, pushed me more in that direction. What made me think maybe it could work between us was when he would comfort and reassure me of his commitment to the marriage, say things like "we're gonna work through this", "we're in this together", "we are so blessed and we can't throw this away"
> 
> In our case he was ws though, so I'm not sure it applies since your EA was so long ago?


That makes me feel like there is hope. I have said to her plenty of times "Let's not give up on us". 
My "baby girl" ,as I call her, (she's 12) is a very sweet sensitive and caring person. She's a daddy's girl to the core. I know she can tell things aren't like they should be between me and her mother. Baby girl likes to strike up conversation with me from time to time...
baby girl - "How ya doin' daddy?"
me - smiling "oh I'm fine, how are you doin'?"
baby girl - "Daddy, how do you feel about you and mommy?"
me - " I love your mommy and as far as I'm concerned I'm going to do everything in my power to keep us together; your mommy will be alright."
Baby girl would always be happy with my confident responses; once after one of those conversations her mommy was passing by the door and she said to her "Mommy, you and daddy are going to grow old together!" My wife quickly went passed the door as if to change the subject and her face looked like (that's not what I want)
I know these conversations are probably sparked by things there mother has said to them about possibly living without me. My wife has actually told me she couldn't bare to take me from them right now; that's one of the reasons she has hesitated in leaving me. That motivation has started to wear off because another section in her diary talked about not being ruled by what her children want....
I'm still hopeful.


----------



## bagdon

By The way I was not implying that there may have been some kind of sexual encounter when I said she slept on top of all the covers in her panties and robe. I'm too emotionally exhausted to feel like sex now a days. I just really want to show her and myself that I've got it in me to love her like she needs to be loved and vice verse. I want us to save our marriage.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> That makes me feel like there is hope. I have said to her plenty of times "Let's not give up on us".
> My "baby girl" ,as I call her, (she's 12) is a very sweet sensitive and caring person. She's a daddy's girl to the core. I know she can tell things aren't like they should be between me and her mother. Baby girl likes to strike up conversation with me from time to time...
> baby girl - "How ya doin' daddy?"
> me - smiling "oh I'm fine, how are you doin'?"
> baby girl - "Daddy, how do you feel about you and mommy?"
> me - " I love your mommy and as far as I'm concerned I'm going to do everything in my power to keep us together; your mommy will be alright."
> Baby girl would always be happy with my confident responses; once after one of those conversations her mommy was passing by the door and she said to her "Mommy, you and daddy are going to grow old together!" My wife quickly went passed the door as if to change the subject and her face looked like (that's not what I want)
> I know these conversations are probably sparked by things there mother has said to them about possibly living without me. My wife has actually told me she couldn't bare to take me from them right now; that's one of the reasons she has hesitated in leaving me. That motivation has started to wear off because another section in her diary talked about not being ruled by what her children want....
> I'm still hopeful.


Children pick up on everything. Your wife does not have to say anything for them to feel what is going on. And accordingly act like a child would. I feel what is going on just reading this. 

That being said do you think your wife would actually have that conversation with your children while you are living with them without telling you first? Like you are invisible?


----------



## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Children pick up on everything. Your wife does not have to say anything for them to feel what is going on. And accordingly act like a child would. I feel what is going on just reading this.
> 
> That being said do you think your wife would actually have that conversation with your children while you are living with them without telling you first? Like you are invisible?


You're right; I'm sure she wouldn't. My kids would have said something to me about it if she had.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Who spends more time with the children, you or her?


----------



## Blonde

You mentioned giving your testimony in church. Does your wife attend/believe?

At times I have rhema/revelation moments from Scriptures and God used Luke 1:17 and Mal 4:6 to convict me that the welfare of our children needed to be above my own "happiness". 

The Bible uses language of "one flesh" for marriage and speaks of divorce as "tearing asunder" the one flesh. The most obvious manifestation of "one flesh" are the children of the union and divorce can be devastating for children. 

How can I possibly ever find "happiness" out there at the cost of tearing my children asunder? (look at the second half of Mal 4:6- scary!)


----------



## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Who spends more time with the children, you or her?


She spends way more time now that we're in summer break. She's not working.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rollin

I think you should continue to make the changes your making, but don't talk about them at all. Don't call it a process, don't call it anything.

Btw how much weight have you lost since the beginning of this thread? You should get a scale and the supplements i told you about, make a huge difference.


----------



## bagdon

Rollin said:


> I think you should continue to make the changes your making, but don't talk about them at all. Don't call it a process, don't call it anything.
> 
> Btw how much weight have you lost since the beginning of this thread? You should get a scale and the supplements i told you about, make a huge difference.


So stop talking about it and just do it from here on out...will do.
I haven't weighed myself sense the first few days I started and I still haven't started the weight training yet. My brother bought some supplements the other day. I'll look up the ones you suggested. 
Now I walk the straights and run the corners for 45 minutes every other morning. I will do the weight training on the alternate days. That sound cool? My HIT book still hasn't arrived yet.


----------



## bagdon

Blonde said:


> You mentioned giving your testimony in church. Does your wife attend/believe?
> 
> At times I have rhema/revelation moments from Scriptures and God used Luke 1:17 and Mal 4:6 to convict me that the welfare of our children needed to be above my own "happiness".
> 
> The Bible uses language of "one flesh" for marriage and speaks of divorce as "tearing asunder" the one flesh. The most obvious manifestation of "one flesh" are the children of the union and divorce can be devastating for children.
> 
> How can I possibly ever find "happiness" out there at the cost of tearing my children asunder? (look at the second half of Mal 4:6- scary!)


We are believers and we attend church; I believe that God is real. However, we have both been burned by "church" in the past. I think my strong involvement in our former church tainted my wife's view of our marriage i. e. the emotional affair and my long ours at work and church neglected her and my children. So when I realized and believed that she would really leave our marriage I went into full force "nice guy" mode and heavy prayer and reading...of course you know it just drove her away from me even more.
Blonde, I hear you; Thank you, I have read the scriptures you suggested earlier and I will read these. We each have our own personal walk with Christ. I will honor her relationship with Christ.


----------



## bagdon

Hey, I just weighed myself....I'm down from 220Ibs to 198Ibs! I was stunned to see how much I had lost. I would occasionally look at myself in the mirror and notice some changes to my gut and my clothes aren't as tight in that area but after seeing how much I've lost on the scale...I want those abs!
Thanks for asking Rollin; I'm really motivated now!


----------



## Thor

bagdon said:


> Do you think "Talking" will get me anywhere with her at this point. Man, that thing with the young woman was at least 10 years ago; it's there but it's a side note to the stuff she's probably heaped on top to not love me now.


If she has some issues then they need to be aired so she can get closure. Then they get put away forever.

She may feel the "EA" was never really resolved. She may need to talk about it some. I am not sure it was more than a very soft EA from your description, but nevertheless it may be a big deal in her mind.

There may be other things too. Part of her healing is simply to be heard by you. So give her the opportunity to tell you. By admitting to being imperfect you are opening up a chance for her to vent. And she may really vent! She may victim puke, get emotional, etc. Remember the goal is to have the process happen, so let her vent if she wants to.

If she thinks you blame her for all of the marital woes, she will not be open to discussions. The balance is to not let her blame you for everything. In fact, your discussions should not be about blame but about experience. How did you experience an event in the past? How did it make you feel? How do you think it affected you and your marriage? Neither one of you is being blamed for the event, you are simply reporting how you experienced it and reacted to it.


----------



## Rollin

bagdon said:


> So stop talking about it and just do it from here on out...will do.
> I haven't weighed myself sense the first few days I started and I still haven't started the weight training yet. My brother bought some supplements the other day. I'll look up the ones you suggested.
> Now I walk the straights and run the corners for 45 minutes every other morning. I will do the weight training on the alternate days. That sound cool? My HIT book still hasn't arrived yet.


Fish Oil and Green Tea Extract are both non stimulants. They'll help with weight loss naturally. Look into rasberry ketone, 200mg a day will really help with sugar cravings as well as mobilizing fat cells so that the burn more easily. 

Also, you should eat 1.5 grapefruits everyday, and other fat burning food. But def start eating the grapefruit ASAP, and go buy those supplements tomorrow. Walk into GNC and ask for them, or any store like walmart/samsclub etc. 

eat the food mentioned here

15 Best Fat-Burning Foods | Women's Health Magazine

45 minutes is good, but you don't need to do that much. 

You exercise in the morning right?

Make sure you do it as soon as you wake up. Drink two glasses of water, and then hit the track. 30 minutes of cardio is all you need to do, just make sure you put in 100% for all 30 minutes. Sprint one lap, walk/jog the next, sprint, jog, but every time you sprint you need to put in 100%. 

Do this workout 4 times a week. Max 5, no more. You want to give your body time to catch up





AND next time your wife asks you why you don't want a cookie, asking you if its cause of the process say no, i'm just not hungry

DEFLECT DEFLECT DEFLECT, any questions she asks, you deflect. have her guessing what your intentions are at all times. but she should never find out.

you made a mistake by talking about her getting a job and saving up for next year, thats alright, but don't let it happen again


----------



## Rollin

bagdon said:


> Hey, I just weighed myself....I'm down from 220Ibs to 198Ibs! I was stunned to see how much I had lost. I would occasionally look at myself in the mirror and notice some changes to my gut and my clothes aren't as tight in that area but after seeing how much I've lost on the scale...I want those abs!
> Thanks for asking Rollin; I'm really motivated now!


22 pounds is a lot for 3 weeks, but i lost a HUGE amount like that years ago when I decided to burn all my fat. 

Thats what happens when you eat SUPER clean and start working out after spending months of soda and no exercise.

Some of it is water weight, and muscle as well. You should want to start lifting ASAP so that your body doesn't burn any muscle you have. 

After another week, you should aim to lose 2 pounds of FAT a week. Anymore weight and its unhealthy, and you won't get the results you want.

And if your wife comments on your weight loss, just say thanks, and act like you didn't really notice it and its not a big deal. Also you should start working out without her, do it alone so she doesn't know how much effort you are putting in


----------



## Rollin

BTW now is not the time to talk about the EA, but if she brings it up then talk about it. Don't initiate any conversations regarding the relationship/future, it needs to be all her.


also read this, and when you reach the part where he goes over fundamentals, click on every single link and read that also

How to Get Your Girlfriend Back | Girls Chase


----------



## wilderness

A big part of the reason my marriage failed was because we were stuck living with parents and didn't get out in time.
Please don't make the same mistake that I did.

Beg, borrow, and steal. Move today!

Just the simple act of moving into a new place could jumpstart your marriage.

God bless.
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.


----------



## bagdon

wilderness said:


> A big part of the reason my marriage failed was because we were stuck living with parents and didn't get out in time.
> Please don't make the same mistake that I did.
> 
> Beg, borrow, and steal. Move today!
> 
> Just the simple act of moving into a new place could jumpstart your marriage.
> 
> God bless.
> Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.


Thanks, I'm working on it


----------



## bagdon

Good Morning, 
Yesterday baby girl hugged me (she's always hugging and kissing me) and said "Daddy, you're getting thinner!" like it was a good thing.

Rollin, Thanks for the information and advice; very useful. I don't want to get thinner and lose muscle in the process so I'd better get on that exercising and supplements. 

This morning my wife got up around 6am. Someone (female) showed up at the house and picked her up around 6:45am they had on work out attire. My wife has definitely intensified her fitness routine...I'm not sure what to make of it.


----------



## bagdon

Rollin said:


> BTW now is not the time to talk about the EA, but if she brings it up then talk about it. Don't initiate any conversations regarding the relationship/future, it needs to be all her.
> 
> 
> also read this, and when you reach the part where he goes over fundamentals, click on every single link and read that also
> 
> How to Get Your Girlfriend Back | Girls Chase


Great Article. I get it...I'm in the hardest catagory too. Thanks.


----------



## Nucking Futs

bagdon said:


> Good Morning,
> Yesterday baby girl hugged me (she's always hugging and kissing me) and said "Daddy, you're getting thinner!" like it was a good thing.
> 
> Rollin, Thanks for the information and advice; very useful. I don't want to get thinner and lose muscle in the process so I'd better get on that exercising and supplements.
> 
> This morning my wife got up around 6am. Someone (female) showed up at the house and picked her up around 6:45am they had on work out attire. *My wife has definitely intensified her fitness routine...I'm not sure what to make of it.*


Arms race. Don't comment on it, not even a raised eyebrow. And get going on building muscle.


----------



## Blonde

bagdon said:


> We each have our own personal walk with Christ. I will honor her relationship with Christ.


I shared my experience because I thought you might find encouraging that God can speak to a wife and rein her in when she is ready to bail (if she is someone who is inclined to seek God for direction).


----------



## Blonde

bagdon said:


> We are believers and we attend church; I believe that God is real. However, we have both been burned by "church" in the past. I think my strong involvement in our former church tainted my wife's view of our marriage i. e. the emotional affair and my long ours at work and church neglected her and my children. So when I realized and believed that she would really leave our marriage I went into full force "nice guy" mode and heavy prayer and reading...of course you know it just drove her away from me even more.


JFTR, I don't go to church anymore at all. Too much hurt over being married to someone who was a drunk using prostitutes while a church supported missionary (1990) and went to church every time the doors were open while carrying on with a shacked up mother of 4 half his age (2008).

He goes religiously and takes the children. I love the Lord, attend a small women's Bible study which I have been with for 9 years, and avoid church like the plague ever since he told me that I am demon possessed, he likes it better when I don't go, and the church shrunk because of me. :rofl:

You might want to reconsider inviting me back to your thread bagdon! :FIREdevil:


----------



## LostViking

Blonde said:


> JFTR, I don't go to church anymore at all. Too much hurt over being married to someone who was a drunk using prostitutes while a church supported missionary (1990) and went to church every time the doors were open while carrying on with a shacked up mother of 4 half his age (2008).
> 
> He goes religiously and takes the children. I love the Lord, attend a small women's Bible study which I have been with for 9 years, and avoid church like the plague ever since he told me that I am demon possessed, he likes it better when I don't go, and the church shrunk because of me. :rofl:
> 
> You might want to reconsider inviting me back to your thread bagdon! :FIREdevil:


I knew there was something fishy about you. 

I grew up Lutheran in the Faroe Islands, one of the few Scandanavian countries where the population still believes in a God. I grew up with good Christian principals but I threw them away when i was in my roaring twenties. Now in my forties I realise I need to get back to my spiritual center. 

I actually went to church two weeks ago and was surprised at how much I enjoyed it. But like you, I am distrustful of most organized religions and especially alot of the new "feel "good" churches out there that are all about blessings and nothing about morals or behaving responsibly.


----------



## Blonde

LostViking said:


> I knew there was something fishy about you.
> 
> I grew up Lutheran in the Faroe Islands, one of the few Scandanavian countries where the population still believes in a God. I grew up with good Christian principals but I threw them away when i was in my roaring twenties. Now in my forties I realise I need to get back to my spiritual center.
> 
> I actually went to church two weeks ago and was surprised at how much I enjoyed it. But like you, I am distrustful of most organized religions and especially alot of the new "feel "good" churches out there that are all about blessings and nothing about morals or behaving responsibly.


Fishy LOL








I'm an evangelical universalist now (aka "heretic" among fundies) so despite your "roaring twenties" and despite my husband's lapses

God Loves, and no one is "Lost" in the end

Cheers, Mr. FOUND Viking


----------



## bagdon

Blonde said:


> I shared my experience because I thought you might find encouraging that God can speak to a wife and rein her in when she is ready to bail (if she is someone who is inclined to seek God for direction).


She is a person inclined to prayer. And I have faith and trust God for a blessed outcome. You are appreciated thanks.


----------



## Rollin

bagdon said:


> She is a person inclined to prayer. And I have faith and trust God for a blessed outcome. You are appreciated thanks.


I don't have faith in god for anything. I have faith in myself. You can believe in god, but at the same time don't expect him to do ANYTHING for you.


----------



## bagdon

Rollin said:


> I don't have faith in god for anything. I have faith in myself. You can believe in god, but at the same time don't expect him to do ANYTHING for you.


I'll admit I'm in the middle of a transitional stage of my faith. However I believe that God is a God of principles. So Faith is belief that God will honor His promises, based on His principles, to me. Many of the things you all have helped me put into action are parallel to His principles. Those "principles" are things I must DO. I've been taught that faith without works is dead. So even in this time of great distress for me and my family, my experience is luck has nothing to do with things falling into my advantage if I "work my faith".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

God can help us but not protect us from sin in that everyone, including your wife has free will. If she decides to stray that is on her and her free will. The whole point is that God gives us a soul and thus free will. Without a soul we are simply biological robots, in other words we either have a soul or we are ruled by fate.


----------



## bagdon

Chaparral said:


> God can help us but not protect us from sin in that everyone, including your wife has free will. If she decides to stray that is on her and her free will. The whole point is that God gives us a soul and thus free will. Without a soul we are simply biological robots, in other words we either have a soul or we are ruled by fate.


I completely agree. My belief that God will honor his promises to me through faith in His principles has nothing to do with making my wife do something she doesn't want to do. I believe, along with God's grace & mercy, things will work out in my favor/positively as I live by his principles. What ever happens.
The other side to God's principles is I, most times, will suffer the consequences of not doing or not faithfully following His principles...His principles cut both ways. The possible failure of my marriage (God Forbid) could be a consequence of things I did or didn't do to safeguard and protect the covenant I made when I married. I pray for His grace & mercy to heal my marriage.
So I understand that I can't manipulate anyone into doing something they don't want to do; I can only control my actions; the truth and practical advice I have accepted and implemented sense I've been with TAM all runs parallel with my core beliefs. I'm a recovering "nice guy" so I'm looking closely at my core beliefs and adjusting my paradigm/way of thinking. 
I believe God has already blessed me through this experience so far and it just may be the best thing that's happened to me If I "take this by the horns". I'm becoming a better man.


----------



## Chaparral

http://marriedmansexlife.com/blog/

No More Mr. Nice Guy

Here are two blogs associated with the best books you can buy.


----------



## bagdon

Chaparral said:


> Blog | Married Man Sex Life
> 
> No More Mr. Nice Guy
> 
> Here are two blogs associated with the best books you can buy.


Loved the MMSLP blog. I even watched the DS9 youtube video. Thank you man...this is all so, so....I don't know. I do know I'm learning and growing.


----------



## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> Loved the MMSLP blog. I even watched the DS9 youtube video. Thank you man...this is all so, so....I don't know. I do know I'm learning and growing.


Once you add upper body muscle and get that "V torso" with a flat stomach, your mind will be blown by how your wife reacts to the attention you'll pull from other women. Throw in some cøcky actions on your part and your wife's mind will be blown. My wife actually thinks her libido went away due to her hysterectomy. Her ovaries didn't come back, but her libido did, once I got back into shape and other women started giving me the eye.


----------



## Rollin

Machiavelli said:


> Once you add upper body muscle and get that "V torso" with a flat stomach, your mind will be blown by how your wife reacts to the attention you'll pull from other women. Throw in some cøcky actions on your part and your wife's mind will be blown. My wife actually thinks her libido went away due to her hysterectomy. Her ovaries didn't come back, but her libido did, once I got back into shape and other women started giving me the eye.


How does one burn the stubborn belly fat?


----------



## Machiavelli

Rollin said:


> How does one burn the stubborn belly fat?


Do everything to up the testosterone (naturally or otherwise) and zero out the carbs during the cutting phase, while keeping fats at about 50%. Alternatively, up the T and go 60% carbs, 20% fat, 20% protein at 1600 cals daily. Eat 5 meals daily. Then cut calories by 200 after two weeks, then again two weeks later down to 1200 daily. Plan A should work without hunger. Plan B makes you hungry.


----------



## Rollin

Machiavelli said:


> Do everything to up the testosterone (naturally or otherwise) and zero out the carbs during the cutting phase, while keeping fats at about 50%. Alternatively, up the T and go 60% carbs, 20% fat, 20% protein at 1600 cals daily. Eat 5 meals daily. Then cut calories by 200 after two weeks, then again two weeks later down to 1200 daily. Plan A should work without hunger. Plan B makes you hungry.


what do you mean zero out the carbs? so essentially ketogenic, or not as extreme? 

what do you say about dairy products, should i cut em out also?


----------



## Machiavelli

Rollin said:


> what do you mean zero out the carbs? so essentially ketogenic, or not as extreme?
> 
> what do you say about dairy products, should i cut em out also?


Go to ketosis. It won't hurt you. Our ancient ancestors had months of it. Heavy cream doesn't have much lactose, so you can use that. Cheese is okay, too. Everything else, milk, yogurt, malts, ice cream, has to go.

Do we no longer have the ability to edit posts on here?

ETA: funny. I figured it out.


----------



## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> Once you add upper body muscle and get that "V torso" with a flat stomach, your mind will be blown by how your wife reacts to the attention you'll pull from other women. Throw in some cøcky actions on your part and your wife's mind will be blown. My wife actually thinks her libido went away due to her hysterectomy. Her ovaries didn't come back, but her libido did, once I got back into shape and other women started giving me the eye.


Welcome back!


----------



## bagdon

I finished reading MMSLP on Saturday night. The links from Rollin and Chaparral were right on time and very helpful. One part of MMSLP that ignited a flame too was "oneitus". The links and that section helped me emotionally unhook myself so that I'm thinking and acting a little clearer as I work to save my marriage.
I can tell she's beginning to realize that my change is real. This is the most focused I've been in years. People have commented on my changing physical appearance; even my brother said he can see the physical change around my face as well and that I was looking good.
My wife hasn't made any comments about my appearance ( I know she's watching) but like I said before her fitness routine has increased and locked in again too. I haven't said anything else to her about moving; I've been doing my research on housing though and preparing myself for a move in the undisclosed future. I'm working on those details.

On a physical stand point:
I tried doing the p90x ab ripper DVD on Saturday afternoon. On Sunday and today my pelvic muscles and lower back muscles are very stiff and sore. The routine was way too advanced for me. This morning I did the p90x total body 10 minute workout and I had a protein drink right after.
My plan this week is: 
Monday p90x total body 10 minute workout
Tuesday, 30 minute run/walk
Wednesday, p90x total body 10 minute work out
Thursday, 30 minute run/walk
Friday, p90x total body 10 minute work out
Saturday, 30 minute run/walk
Sunday off
My HIT book arrived Saturday too. I've done intense physical training before in the marines so I know what that feels like but I've never done serious weight training so I'm kind of feeling my way through this. I don't want to injure myself and delay my body transformation so any helpful advice on that would be appreciated too.


----------



## bagdon

I was praying in the shower this morning after my work out to keep myself balanced in this journey. Sometimes I get resentful and feel like "how dare she treat me the way she has and say the things she said" Almost to the point of wanting to punish her and make her feel like sh!t. Just so she can hurt like I hurt. 
I know I can go on without her now but I have to keep in mind why I'm here and that's to save my marriage and my family.


----------



## bagdon

Of course then again, she may have felt like Sh!t years ago before she started her journey...I guess It's just my turn to feel that way and do something about it.


----------



## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> I can tell she's beginning to realize that my change is real. This is the most focused I've been in years. People have commented on my changing physical appearance; even my brother said he can see the physical change around my face as well and that I was looking good.
> My wife hasn't made any comments about my appearance ( I know she's watching) but like I said before her fitness routine has increased and locked in again too.


My wife never once commented on my improvements, either. Then when the job was just about finished, but within the ratio, it finally triggered her response. Explosively. You have either reached the proportions that throw her limbic sexual attraction switch, or you aren't there yet. Getting 20% improvement in your physique most definitely does not result in 20% more sex. It's more like "all or nothing."



bagdon said:


> I haven't said anything else to her about moving; I've been doing my research on housing though and preparing myself for a move in the undisclosed future. I'm working on those details.


Become mysterious to her in all things, while still projecting peace, friendliness, confidence in your dealings with her. Keep The Sixteen Commandments.



bagdon said:


> My HIT book arrived Saturday too. I've done intense physical training before in the marines so I know what that feels like but I've never done serious weight training so I'm kind of feeling my way through this. I don't want to injure myself and delay my body transformation so any helpful advice on that would be appreciated too.


With HIT, you generally will not have the usual weight training injuries. I have not had an injury in 5.5 years of training with HIT. Very different from my old days of two hour workouts, 6 days a week. The reason for this is that with HIT there is no explosive movement in lifting the weight. It's all slow and smooth without momentum and centrifugal force (swinging the bar); which are the two things that cause the most injuries. Strict form is the normal rule with HIT.


----------



## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> With HIT, you generally will not have the usual weight training injuries. I have not had an injury in 5.5 years of training with HIT. Very different from my old days of two hour workouts, 6 days a week. The reason for this is that with HIT there is no explosive movement in lifting the weight. It's all slow and smooth without momentum and centrifugal force (swinging the bar); which are the two things that cause the most injuries. Strict form is the normal rule with HIT.


So HIT is okay for me even though I've never done anything like 1 to 2 hour weight training before. I don't have a normal routine. I guess What I'm asking is, Is HIT all I need to get my body in the "golden ratio"?


----------



## Rollin

Machiavelli said:


> Go to ketosis. It won't hurt you. Our ancient ancestors had months of it. Heavy cream doesn't have much lactose, so you can use that. Cheese is okay, too. Everything else, milk, yogurt, malts, ice cream, has to go.
> 
> Do we no longer have the ability to edit posts on here?
> 
> ETA: funny. I figured it out.


Skim milk and greek yogurt as well?


----------



## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> My wife never once commented on my improvements, either. Then when the job was just about finished, but within the ratio, it finally triggered her response. Explosively. You have either reached the proportions that throw her limbic sexual attraction switch, or you aren't there yet. Getting 20% improvement in your physique most definitely does not result in 20% more sex. It's more like "all or nothing."


How long did it take you and what was your routine?


----------



## badcompany

I just read this whole thread and I don't like what I see in your W, she seems selfish. She quit a good profession to write because that is what she likes. That's great but it's not real world and she's not part of the family "team". I sold my "fun business" and got an 8-5 with steady paychecks and family medical because its the best for my family. Your family had a tough time with the recession and you want to save and place a large down on your next purchase to have lower payments and better stability in what could be more uncertain times in the future. This is reasonable and practical in my opinion. There is no better way to save $$$ fast than live in the mothers house, and from what I get it's not like she's in there with you, which if she was I would totally understand and side with Blondie, she's in the house next door.
Meanwhile your wife wants the big house now, where you will have little down, and will pay on average 2 to 2-1/2 times the $$$ back to the bank over the term of the loan. Things will be tight and the next time there is financial difficulties you could wind up at square one yet again. 
My wife was the same way regarding getting a home, her and all our friends kept saying buy now it's just going to keep going up and up, and I kept saying it's going to crash and everyone thought I was stupid. We stayed with relatives and had to put off starting our family, while we watched home prices and rentals spiral into craziness. We're on the west coast so have a seat before you see the prices I'm about to post. At its peak the average home price was over $400,000 here, more than 10x the median family income here...WTF?
2007-2008 came and I was proven correct. The bottom fell out and we saw a lot of people lose their homes, or get bogged down in working multiple jobs-get at odds with each other and end up divorced. The development we finally settled in had been built during the boom and about 1/3rd of the lots were vacant when things tanked. The developer had been selling the finished homes for $280-$320K, two story "chicken houses" that all looked the same with two car "garages"(if you had two Mini's maybe). The last 8 completed homes were lost in the developers bankruptcy later down the road and only brought $190K each.
(back up a bit).The developer was in distress at that point and we got our lot for $77K, and had a new rambler with a real two car garage built on it for $106K via a low money down construction loan. During this period I took most of our savings and built a 36x28 stick-built shop in the back, which cost $22K in materials and appraised for $48K when we completed construction and re-financed the whole package. 
We emerged from the whole deal about $220k into the place and it appraised for $290K even in these times. Our payment isn't much more than average rents here. I look back and there was no other way I could have gone that would have been better. Still, my wife resents me for it. We've watched the "plague" slowly spread into the homes that sold during the peak and it's been sad. Divorce, foreclosure, alcoholism, and crime. The guy across the street was working swing at the refinery which is one of the best paying jobs in the area, fixing and flipping vehicles and other craigslist items to make ends meet, doing everything he could. His reward? His SAHW and mother of three strayed and started clubbing, and wound up in bed with another guy on new years eve. They divorced, went bankrupt, lost the home, and both live with their parents now. His fault? I think not.


----------



## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> So HIT is okay for me even though I've never done anything like 1 to 2 hour weight training before. I don't have a normal routine. I guess What I'm asking is, Is HIT all I need to get my body in the "golden ratio"?


HIT is all you need, so long as you are eating right and getting 8 or more hours of sleep. You already have about a 32" waist, right? You just need to up the calories so your body can add the muscle you're going to stimulate with the workout. Most guys can get in the range with some resistance training. 1:1.618 translates to a 32" waist and 51.7" around the shoulders, or 30" waist and 48.5" shoulders. Most use 1:1.4 as the correct number for the chest, which would be 32" waist, 44.8" chest. As you can see, the waist is the key.

Once you get it together, HIT workouts take about 20 minutes or less.


----------



## Machiavelli

Rollin said:


> Skim milk and greek yogurt as well?


Skim milk makes you fat, because they replace the subtracted milk fat with more lactose. Higher carb content means higher insulin response. Greek yogurt is okay, once you reach your goal. No good for the fat loss phase. Same as fruit, in that regard.


----------



## Blonde

badcompany said:


> Meanwhile your wife wants the big house now, where you will have little down, and will pay on average 2 to 2-1/2 times the $$$ back to the bank over the term of the loan.


IIRC Mrs bagdon was desperate enough to be out of MIL's compound that she wanted a mobile home which bagdon quashed (rightly IMO, mobile homes depreciate).

Badcompany that is a really good testimony about your smarts when it comes to real estate decisions. Awesome job! Real estate has been good to us too. 

My point is that the prices are coming out of the slump now and mortgage rates are at historical lows! When H and I got married, mortgages were in the teens, our first house- we thought 8.5% was a bargain mortgage rate. Heard on business talk radio recently that mortgage rates stand to sharply increase once unmployment rates hit 7%. 

Bad news for those who wait. And I disagree with Dave Ramsey when he counsels couples away from investing until they have all their other debt paid off. Buy low, sell high. Now is "low".

There are still bargains out there. I envy bagdon because as an intended owner occupant he has access to these Fannie Mae REO Homes For Sale - HomePath.com which are sold below market value.


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## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> HIT is all you need, so long as you are eating right and getting 8 or more hours of sleep. You already have about a 32" waist, right? You just need to up the calories so your body can add the muscle you're going to stimulate with the workout. Most guys can get in the range with some resistance training. 1:1.618 translates to a 32" waist and 51.7" around the shoulders, or 30" waist and 48.5" shoulders. Most use 1:1.4 as the correct number for the chest, which would be 32" waist, 44.8" chest. As you can see, the waist is the key.
> 
> Once you get it together, HIT workouts take about 20 minutes or less.


I think I may be close to 32 waist again; Before I started training I was comfortable in 34 to 36 waist pants. They're much loser on me now and I have pulled in a full belt notch.

Diet and rest appear to be crucial and the p90x workouts may be a waste of time for my fitness goals, which is to achieve my golden ratio. I'm going to dive into that HIT book tonight so I can really get started. The walking/running shouldn't slow my muscle building goals right? (you saw my schedule)


----------



## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> I think I may be close to 32 waist again; Before I started training I was comfortable in 34 to 36 waist pants. They're much loser on me now and I have pulled in a full belt notch.
> 
> Diet and rest appear to be crucial and the p90x workouts may be a waste of time for my fitness goals, which is to achieve my golden ratio. I'm going to dive into that HIT book tonight so I can really get started. The walking/running shouldn't slow my muscle building goals right? (you saw my schedule)


If you walk a mile, you burn very close to the same calories as if you jog a mile; it just takes longer. Keep walking and guzzle ice water while you're doing it.

Are you doing the P90x diet plan? That's actually where most of the results of P90x come from.


----------



## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> If you walk a mile, you burn very close to the same calories as if you jog a mile; it just takes longer. Keep walking and guzzle ice water while you're doing it.
> 
> Are you doing the P90x diet plan? That's actually where most of the results of P90x come from.


I am not doing the p90x diet plan. My brother has the whole p90x system and was letting me try out some of the DVDs.


----------



## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> If you walk a mile, you burn very close to the same calories as if you jog a mile; it just takes longer. Keep walking and guzzle ice water while you're doing it.
> 
> Are you doing the P90x diet plan? That's actually where most of the results of P90x come from.


So I'm burning calories with the walk but I need to up calories to build muscle.


----------



## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> So I'm burning calories with the walk but I need to up calories to build muscle.


That's right, but only up the calories when you get the stomach flat. Six pack is nice, but not necessary at this point. Flat stomach and narrower shoulders always beats big shoulders and big gut. As a true genius once said, "The fastest way to gain 10 pounds of muscle is to lose 10 pounds of fat."

You'll still add some muscle while losing the fat on HIT.


----------



## bagdon

Good Morning,
Yesterday was another day of regaining balance. I told you I had been feeling resentful and wanting to punish my wife for the way I was feeling. I didn't realize it at the time but my mind and thoughts were transferred into my body language because I was cold and distant with her most of the day on Sunday; She reflected back to me the same cold demeanor yesterday when I got home from work. Fortunately, I had my talks with you all throughout the day before I got home so I knew what was going on and wasn't affected by it. I simply followed the 16 commandments and the 180 guideline; I was calm, confident and friendly with all my dealings with her. I made an effort to strike up conversation while I was doing things around the house; of course her replies were short and cold at first and the look on her face looked like she was ready for a fight. (or to dismiss me or whatever) 

Before the night was over her guard was noticeably lowered. She even asked me about how the progress was going on getting the house renovated. She had attended her zumba class that day and was wincing in pain as she turned her left arm. I said "They really worked you guys hard in zumba today?" Then she informed me that the doctor told her she had a pinched nerve in her arm as she was attempting to put an iceyhot bandage on it. I offered to help and she allowed me to put it on her...that was one of the first times we touched each other beyond a hug in church in weeks. 

I believe I overwhelmed her with kindness and not allowing her belligerence to make me react in kind. Oh! and guess what... when I got up to do my walk this morning I noticed she was sleeping under all the covers with me.

I can only control my actions; I can handle whatever happens.


----------



## weightlifter

bagdon said:


> Oh! and guess what... when I got up to do my walk this morning I noticed she was sleeping under all the covers with me.
> 
> I can only control my actions; I can handle whatever happens.


COOL! Now when you come to the boards saying she grabbbed Mr. Happy and your balls ache from over use...

One win at a time tho.


----------



## bagdon

weightlifter said:


> COOL! Now when you come to the boards saying she grabbbed Mr. Happy and your balls ache from over use...
> 
> One win at a time tho.


Yep! in due time. 
I did some more research on the Retrouvaille marriage program today. She hasn't said anything to me about our relationship and I'm going to continue the 180 but I'm hoping, as long as I stay disciplined in the process, things will have progressed to that point by October . (that's the next Retrouvaille weekend in my area)


----------



## bagdon

I had some time to search through some of the other posts today. I got the idea that maybe I would find a post from my wife in here from 2009 when the first real tangible signs of a crumbling marriage became real to me.

I didn't find anything that matched us but I found a young lady, bhappy3, who said a lot of things that resembled my wife's written feelings about me. It gave me some insight into what's possibly going on with us...


----------



## anchorwatch

bagdon said:


> Yep! in due time.
> I did some more research on the Retrouvaille marriage program today. She hasn't said anything to me about our relationship and I'm going to continue the 180 but I'm hoping, as long as I stay disciplined in the process, things will have progressed to that point by October . (that's the next Retrouvaille weekend in my area)


Book it now to save a place. You can always cancel latter, if you don't go.


----------



## Thor

bagdon said:


> I've done intense physical training before in the marines so I know what that feels like but I've never done serious weight training so I'm kind of feeling my way through this. I don't want to injure myself and delay my body transformation so any helpful advice on that would be appreciated too.


Take it really slow on the weight training. Ideally you should have a top notch trainer to teach you proper safe form. You may have some muscles in good shape (quads for example) but other parts of your body may not be equal (lower back for example). If you push your quads with some heavy squats you could blow out your back.

That's what I did and I am now permanently partially disabled with chronic back pain from several blown out lumbar disks.

I defer to the experts, but my sense is you should be looking at overall strength improvement for a number of months before you really push heavy weights.


----------



## bagdon

Good Morning,
Okay, I'm eating healthy, drinking water and getting around 8 hours of sleep each night; I also have a WHEY protein drink every morning after a walk or a workout. I'm studying up on HIT and gathering the things I need to get going. (Taking it slow, thanks Thor) Meanwhile, I've started doing pushups and sit-ups every other day. Today was one of those days. I worked out for about 15 minutes non stop alternating between push ups and sit ups. (go to exhaustion then switch) 

I know it's been more than 15 years sense I've done any serious physical training but am I supposed to feel this sore and stiff after doing Pushups and sit ups? I was still just a little sore from Monday''s work out; am I not giving my body enough time to heal between work outs; am I going too fast? 

I can push through I just don't want to hinder my progress by doing it wrong.


----------



## bagdon

My IC has found an Alpha subliminal mp3 audio for me to listen to and I've been visiting a website called tooshytodate.com to help me learn some "game"...I have none. Hopefully, all of this will be targeted toward my wife at the proper time.


----------



## weightlifter

DAMN! an IC that does stuff like give his/her clients game? 

Might be a keeper.


----------



## bagdon

weightlifter said:


> DAMN! an IC that does stuff like give his/her clients game?
> 
> Might be a keeper.


Visiting the website about game is my idea not my IC. He just has the mp3 subliminal on being Alpha.


----------



## bagdon

You know what's bothering me today? 
I'm letting the simple fact that my wife doesn't have on her wedding ring right now get to me. I hate that it feels to me like she has to remember or think about wearing it rather than the other way around. Yeah, I know she doesn't love me...it's still aggravating and hurtful.
I'm off from work today and we're preparing for a holiday trip; maybe she doesn't normally put it on till she suspects I'll be home from work. Hey, just venting now. 

I'm confident, calm, peaceful and friendly in all my dealings with her.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Take your wedding ring off. Leave it on the night table. 

Seriously.


----------



## weightlifter

This thread has more ups and downs than all the rollercoasters put together


----------



## GTdad

My wife hasn't wore her rings in years. When I was brought it up, she claimed that she needed to have resized. Hard to say how many years ago that was.

I've been tempted at times to take mine off as well, but decided that for me at least, that fell into passive-aggressive territory, and I've decided to keep mine on until I was done.

Your mileage may vary.


----------



## bagdon

GTdad said:


> My wife hasn't wore her rings in years. When I was brought it up, she claimed that she needed to have resized. Hard to say how many years ago that was.
> 
> I've been tempted at times to take mine off as well, but decided that for me at least, that fell into passive-aggressive territory, and I've decided to keep mine on until I was done.
> 
> Your mileage may vary.


I did take mine off for a brief period in response to her and like you, I decided I was just being vindictive. I will wear mine till I die or we're done.


----------



## bagdon

weightlifter said:


> This thread has more ups and downs than all the rollercoasters put together


LOL! Hey man, I told you I was going to be all over the place while I worked on BALANCE. These outbursts help me to release some of my anxiety through the process. I'm around 25 days or so in my journey.

I'm here to save my marriage. 

I can only control my actions; I can handle whatever happens.


----------



## bagdon

anchorwatch said:


> Blonde, That is not the concept.
> 
> The idea is to clean up your side of the street and to improve yourself in all areas of your life.
> 
> To know you can change only yourself, not others.
> 
> To be more confidant as an individual, in that you have recognized your failings and can change them, to make a better life for yourself and your family.
> 
> To know you have made yourself as well a person you can be.
> 
> To understand that even if your spouse still does not chose you, you as a person will be better, with or without them.
> 
> There is no unfaithfulness in these thoughts. Quite the contrary, as you have presented yourself to them as the best partner you can be.


This is my favorite post. I'm committing it to memory:

*I'm cleaning up my side of the street to improve all areas of my life.
I know that I can change only myself, not others.
I will be more confident as an individual in that I've recognized my failings and changed them to make a better life for myself and my family.
I will know that I have made myself as well a person as I can be.
I understand that even if my wife still does not chose me, I as a person will still be better with or without her.*

Love it. That keeps me going.


----------



## Tufluv

Bagdon, what about the grass is always greener on the other side theory? What if you went away for 2 weeks? Say for a business trip or to visit family. Have zero contact. Don't let her be able to reach you by phone. If there is ANYTHING left of your marriage, she will miss you and see what it would be like without you. It has to be for at least 2 weeks though, anything less and it's kind of nice to be alone. After about a week you start to miss the person. Just a thought. Seems like you have tried everything else.


----------



## bagdon

Tufluv said:


> Bagdon, what about the grass is always greener on the other side theory? What if you went away for 2 weeks? Say for a business trip or to visit family. Have zero contact. Don't let her be able to reach you by phone. If there is ANYTHING left of your marriage, she will miss you and see what it would be like without you. It has to be for at least 2 weeks though, anything less and it's kind of nice to be alone. After about a week you start to miss the person. Just a thought. Seems like you have tried everything else.


I don't think that will work in my case. She's so far detached from me right now I think it will push her over the edge. I'll continue my self improvement. I'll know when it's time for me to push the issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> I know it's been more than 15 years sense I've done any serious physical training but am I supposed to feel this sore and stiff after doing Pushups and sit ups?


Yes



bagdon said:


> I was still just a little sore from Monday''s work out; am I not giving my body enough time to heal between work outs; am I going too fast?


You're doing fine. Later, as you double your strength, you should add more rest time between workouts, but that is six months into the weight training. No need for that kind of rest with sit ups, pull ups, and push ups.



bagdon said:


> I can push through I just don't want to hinder my progress by doing it wrong.


With this type of soreness, just work through it. It doesn't feel good, but it won't hurt you in any way.


----------



## tom67

The first week 2 weeks are the worst take some NSAIDS during this time for the pain so you can sleep and hot baths with epsom salt.Feels good.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Bagdon, how are you holding up?


----------



## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Bagdon, how are you holding up?


I'm doing ok; Thanks.
I made it through our July 4th vacation with only one mistake.(I'll get to that in a minute)
I worked hard to stay confident, calm, peaceful, and friendly the whole time and I stuck to my diet and physical fitness routine. My wife even put on her wedding ring just before we pulled off on the trip; she wore it the whole weekend. 
We stayed 3 days two nights at her brothers house in Warner Robins, GA; the first night we slept in the same bed the rest of the time she slept out in the living room with the children.
The trip was based around spending time with her brother sense he is around 3 years divorced and living alone...I kept him company and let him vent about his divorce and all the drama around seeing his two sons. (She apparently has said nothing to him about our situation as he acted as if everything between me and my wife was fine)
Anyway, on Friday we all went to the Ga Aquarium for the day. I started taking pictures of the family and my brother-in-law offered to take a picture of us (me, wife and kids) using my phone; her initial response just bothered me because she hesitated almost like she was going to say "that's alright" or something but it was obvious to me she really didn't want to take a picture with me and her together in it. Shortly after that we made it to the entrance (it was super crowded). At the entrance they take professional pictures of the families as they go in...I was still upset about what happened earlier and really didn't want to take another picture that she didn't want to be seen with me in. We had a great time all day but the expression on my face said it all when we saw the pictures 5 hours later as we were preparing to leave; I did not want to document any kind of bad feelings of the trip and there it was...I looked upset and pitiful and I hated that picture. When my kids saw it they were all like "Daddy you're not smiling" My wife still bought the pictures and she almost looked amused when the kids made the comment. I tried to play it off saying I wasn't ready for the picture and it happened so fast...I think the kids bought it.

I had a little time to read up some more on NMMNG too. I also looked up "his needs her needs" on youtube and watched some of that. i'm going to buy the book. today I studied my HIT book and I priced out some weights I'm going to buy.

Everything's still touch and go...sometimes she seems very cold and detached and other times it seems she might be thinking...don't know.

All in All I think I'm doing pretty good. It's really starting to sink in about only being able to control my actions and no one else's.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> I'm doing ok; Thanks.
> I made it through our July 4th vacation with only one mistake.(I'll get to that in a minute)
> I worked hard to stay confident, calm, peaceful, and friendly the whole time and I stuck to my diet and physical fitness routine. My wife even put on her wedding ring just before we pulled off on the trip; she wore it the whole weekend.
> We stayed 3 days two nights at her brothers house in Warner Robins, GA; the first night we slept in the same bed the rest of the time she slept out in the living room with the children.
> The trip was based around spending time with her brother sense he is around 3 years divorced and living alone...I kept him company and let him vent about his divorce and all the drama around seeing his two sons. (She apparently has said nothing to him about our situation as he acted as if everything between me and my wife was fine)
> Anyway, on Friday we all went to the Ga Aquarium for the day. I started taking pictures of the family and my brother-in-law offered to take a picture of us (me, wife and kids) using my phone; her initial response just bothered me because she hesitated almost like she was going to say "that's alright" or something but it was obvious to me she really didn't want to take a picture with me and her together in it. Shortly after that we made it to the entrance (it was super crowded). At the entrance they take professional pictures of the families as they go in...I was still upset about what happened earlier and really didn't want to take another picture that she didn't want to be seen with me in. We had a great time all day but the expression on my face said it all when we saw the pictures 5 hours later as we were preparing to leave; I did not want to document any kind of bad feelings of the trip and there it was...I looked upset and pitiful and I hated that picture. When my kids saw it they were all like "Daddy you're not smiling" My wife still bought the pictures and she almost looked amused when the kids made the comment. I tried to play it off saying I wasn't ready for the picture and it happened so fast...I think the kids bought it.
> 
> I had a little time to read up some more on NMMNG too. I also looked up "his needs her needs" on youtube and watched some of that. i'm going to buy the book. today I studied my HIT book and I priced out some weights I'm going to buy.
> 
> Everything's still touch and go...sometimes she seems very cold and detached and other times it seems she might be thinking...don't know.
> 
> All in All I think I'm doing pretty good. It's really starting to sink in about only being able to control my actions and no one else's.


Ignore her Bagdon. Next time someone offers to take a family picture just huddle done with your kids, pose for the picture and act like she is invisible. If she want to join the family picture fine. If not so be it. If there is a pregnant pause where she is making a point of showing her displeasure of being in the same frame just ask her: "Do you you want to be in the picture with me and the kids or not"? If she makes a point of having a picture taken w/o you in just pull out your cell and make a note of it. Just ignore her for all that trivial passive aggressive crap. She is getting some perverse delight in getting under your skin. Ignore her.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> I'm doing ok; Thanks.
> I made it through our July 4th vacation with only one mistake.(I'll get to that in a minute)
> I worked hard to stay confident, calm, peaceful, and friendly the whole time and I stuck to my diet and physical fitness routine. My wife even put on her wedding ring just before we pulled off on the trip; she wore it the whole weekend.
> We stayed 3 days two nights at her brothers house in Warner Robins, GA; the first night we slept in the same bed the rest of the time she slept out in the living room with the children.
> The trip was based around spending time with her brother sense he is around 3 years divorced and living alone...I kept him company and let him vent about his divorce and all the drama around seeing his two sons. (She apparently has said nothing to him about our situation as he acted as if everything between me and my wife was fine)
> Anyway, on Friday we all went to the Ga Aquarium for the day. I started taking pictures of the family and my brother-in-law offered to take a picture of us (me, wife and kids) using my phone; her initial response just bothered me because she hesitated almost like she was going to say "that's alright" or something but it was obvious to me she really didn't want to take a picture with me and her together in it. Shortly after that we made it to the entrance (it was super crowded). At the entrance they take professional pictures of the families as they go in...I was still upset about what happened earlier and really didn't want to take another picture that she didn't want to be seen with me in. We had a great time all day but the expression on my face said it all when we saw the pictures 5 hours later as we were preparing to leave; I did not want to document any kind of bad feelings of the trip and there it was...I looked upset and pitiful and I hated that picture. When my kids saw it they were all like "Daddy you're not smiling" My wife still bought the pictures and she almost looked amused when the kids made the comment. I tried to play it off saying I wasn't ready for the picture and it happened so fast...I think the kids bought it.
> 
> I had a little time to read up some more on NMMNG too. I also looked up "his needs her needs" on youtube and watched some of that. i'm going to buy the book. today I studied my HIT book and I priced out some weights I'm going to buy.
> 
> Everything's still touch and go...sometimes she seems very cold and detached and other times it seems she might be thinking...don't know.
> 
> All in All I think I'm doing pretty good. It's really starting to sink in about only being able to control my actions and no one else's.


*Everything's still touch and go...sometimes she seems very cold and detached and other times it seems she might be thinking...don't know.*

Don't wait for validation from her. Treating you nicely then cold then nice again. That is a emotional yo yo and it is not becoming of parents in a marriage to each other. Just do a 180. If she wants to show up in the marriage so be it. If not, well start the goodbyes then.


----------



## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> I tried to play it off saying I wasn't ready for the picture and it happened so fast...I think the kids bought it.


How old are the kids, Bagdon?





bagdon said:


> Everything's still touch and go...sometimes she seems very cold and detached and other times it seems she might be thinking...don't know.
> 
> All in All I think I'm doing pretty good. *It's really starting to sink in about only being able to control my actions and no one else's.*


She is very far gone. Your odds of snatching a successful reconciliation with this woman are minimal. You can hold out hope in the back of your mind, but you need to be changing you for your own good, not your wife's. If she responds positively, wonderful, if she still moves on, probably even more wonderful (although you don't see that, yet). You're on a journey of improvement for yourself and your kids; it will be a journey to a better place for you and those who choose to accompany you. Your wife's head is in some kind of fantasy. Whatever she's thinking, her life without you is not going to turn out like she imagines. Discuss none of this with her, just keep making the changes.


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## weightlifter

Mach, If nothing else. he is gonna be uber with Mrs. Bagdon V2.0.

Still pulling for him. There was the day she actually slept in the same bed under the covers. Pulling for ya man!


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## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> How old are the kids, Bagdon?


I have two daughters and a son; the son is the youngest. Ages: 14,12 & 10


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## bagdon

weightlifter said:


> Mach, If nothing else. he is gonna be uber with Mrs. Bagdon V2.0.
> 
> Still pulling for him. There was the day she actually slept in the same bed under the covers. Pulling for ya man!


She has indeed been sleeping under the sheets with me every night sense the first night I mentioned it. (in a small night shirt and shorts last night and a few other nights too) She's still way on her side and I am careful to stay on my side.

Her changing attitude and mood got me to thinking about something I read in MMSLP about learning your wife's minstrual cycle. Based on my calculations I think Wednesday and Thursday she was PMSing; remember Wednesday I was ticked off because she didn't have on her rings. Thursday night we slept in the same bed at her brother's house but she had on the full flannel PJ's. I saw pads near her suitcase Friday morning; ( I have two daughters so it seems somebody is always bleeding) Saturday night (another time she was short and brief with me as I tried to make conversation in the van) she made a point of us stopping to get some bubble bath because she wanted to soak in the tub that night.
If my calculations are right, tomorrow should be her last day of bleeding and she'll be normal for the next few days, ovulating and feeling horny around Thursday or so next week and then PMSing again by that weekend. I will monitor her appearance and attitude and try some Beta and Alpha at the appropriate times.
I don't think we're anywhere near having sex but I think I'll be a little flirty with her around the estimated ovulation times and throw on a good amount of beta stuff during the PMS time just to test my theory.
I'm open to thoughts on testing that theory...


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## bagdon

I watched a youtube clip of "His Needs Her needs" interview and the thing that struck me is when Bill Harley said if you lose your love you can get it back. So naturally I'm interested in the book now.

I'm planning on continuing the 180 for the rest of this month. By August I'll know my change is really going to stick. I will suggest MC at that point; hopefully she will be willing...Pray for us. (If you're not a believer, wish us luck)


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> I watched a youtube clip of "His Needs Her needs" interview and the thing that struck me is when Bill Harley said if you lose your love you can get it back. So naturally I'm interested in the book now.
> 
> I'm planning on continuing the 180 for the rest of this month. By August I'll know my change is really going to stick. I will suggest MC at that point; hopefully she will be willing...Pray for us. (If you're not a believer, wish us luck)


What will you do if she is not willing? Or drags her feet? Or picks a fight? Are you going to have a firm plan set or are you going to cross that bridge when you get there? 

Wish you the best.


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## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> What will you do if she is not willing? Or drags her feet? Or picks a fight? Are you going to have a firm plan set or are you going to cross that bridge when you get there?
> 
> Wish you the best.


You all can help me develop a plan of action in lieu of a negative response. I've got around 23 days of prep time.


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## BashfulB

Bagdon I feel for you. I have no advice for you but I feel for you. Good luck in whatever you decide to do.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

My 5 cents: 
I think you definitely need a firm plan of action whatever you choose to do. One if she agrees to MC WHOLEHEARTEDLY and w/o reservation and another plan for anything else. It really is a binary option, either she wants to work on the marriage or she does not. The present situation is untenable for you. You must be prepared for all possible outcomes. If she decides to waiver and waffle, that is her choice. You must not waiver and waffle. Have a set of decisions, plan of action and stick to them.


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## bagdon

Yesterday we were at my mom's house eating dinner. My wife, my two daughters and I were in the den watching tv; a dating commercial came on (Christian singles or something like that) and my babygirl asked, "Mommy, what dating site would you use if you were dating?" There was about a 5 to 8 second very awkward pause; I kept looking right at the tv but intensely listening for her answer. My wife finally said "I wouldn't". Babygirl quite innocently asked her again, "Yeah, but if you were dating..." My wife didn't answer her at all as I started turning toward them Then Baby girl asked me the same question and I immediately said "I wouldn't" then I said to baby girl "You don't ask married folk that kind of question." to which my first born daughter chimed in and helped chasten her little sister.

That was awkward. Later on that night I asked babygirl what was that all about; why were you asking us those questions? She quite innocently said "Oh I was just wandering what your opinion was on those dating sites?"

My wife's uneasiness could be felt very clearly by me and I think my oldest daughter has a strong whiff of her parent's discord.


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## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> I have two daughters and a son; the son is the youngest. Ages: 14,12 & 10


It's funny how people think everything is going to sail right over the kids' heads.


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## Rollin

You gotta be more smooth when your in these situations, read this article

How to Be Smooth with Girls Every Time | Girls Chase


----------



## weightlifter

Wonder if bagdons wife has a dating profile somewhere.

Sorry dude thats what I read into it.


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## BjornFree

Bagdon, 

When was the last time you had sex with your wife?


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## bagdon

BjornFree said:


> Bagdon,
> 
> When was the last time you had sex with your wife?


End of April beginning of May...somewhere around there.


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## bagdon

weightlifter said:


> Wonder if bagdons wife has a dating profile somewhere.
> 
> Sorry dude thats what I read into it.


That has crossed my mind but I don't think she would do that before she was away from me. 
I think it would have to be someone she was actually around for her get into that. And even then she would be very careful about it. That's what I think.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> That has crossed my mind but I don't think she would do that before she was away from me.
> I think it would have to be someone she was actually around for her get into that. And even then she would be very careful about it. That's what I think.


Bagdon, I am going to point out something you wrote earlier:

"_I see where you're going. I do think if the opportune situation occurred she might succumb to her desires but she is a spiritual "mother" and I think she's waiting for her "day of freedom" to let loose. She's a professional sophisticated attractive looking woman. She where's glasses and has a sexy voice. We live in a small community and many people recognize her as a local celebrity due to her book. *There is another section I remember in her diary where she talked about having a disturbing amount of thought and fantasies about this person (she wouldn't name) and said she had to "resolve this". *" _

Are you sure she has no free time for "resolving" things? How old was this diary entry?


----------



## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Bagdon, I am going to point out something you wrote earlier:
> 
> "_I see where you're going. I do think if the opportune situation occurred she might succumb to her desires but she is a spiritual "mother" and I think she's waiting for her "day of freedom" to let loose. She's a professional sophisticated attractive looking woman. She where's glasses and has a sexy voice. We live in a small community and many people recognize her as a local celebrity due to her book. *There is another section I remember in her diary where she talked about having a disturbing amount of thought and fantasies about this person (she wouldn't name) and said she had to "resolve this". *" _
> 
> Are you sure she has no free time for "resolving" things? How old was this diary entry?


As bad as things are between us, my gut feeling right now is that she hasn't cheated on me. I've been more aware of her comings and goings sense I read her diary...nothing I've observed is consistent with her seeing someone else. Now this unnamed person she was fantasizing about is still a mystery to me. The logical suspect would be someone from or connected with the writing organizations she participates in. They do frequent reading events where people do spoken word/poetry or read some parts of books they've written...that kind of vibe. Probably some smooth guy performing some erotic poetry or something. At any rate, the core people she hangs with in that group all know she's married and they've met me so it might be kind of awkward for her to openly flirt or get with someone like that.
She attended a reading Sunday night and I was attentive to what time she left and what time she got back; everything seemed and felt like a regular reading; nothing suspicious. She takes pictures of most of the events she attends and I scanned through the camera the next morning before I left for work. Mostly pix of her book display and a few shots of people performing; I felt no cause for alarm.


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## bagdon

Last night was interesting...
I got home around 6:45; my wife had already left for her zumba class. The children were there doing there thing and she left dinner on the oven. Anyway, I couldn't do some of the outdoor things I had planned to do that day like cut the grass because it was raining so I changed clothes, ate dinner and helped my daughter get some laundry done. My wife returned at a non suspicious time as I was bringing in some clothes from the laundry room...she seemed friendly and open when we greeted one another.
Later that night I got a craving for something sweet to eat. Hindering my diet was out of the question so I chose some watermelon that had been in the fridge for some time. It tasted pretty good as I ate the whole piece that I cut; unfortunately, something wasn't right about it because I had to run outside and throw up shortly after I finished it. 
Everyone was checking on me and asking me if I was alright afterwards (I felt just fine afterwards). My wife was in the mist of getting herself cleaned up and taking a shower but she heard everything that was happening and checked on me too. Of course I went back and threw the rest of that watermelon away. 
I go to bed around 9:00pm every night now that I'm taking care of my body. I think everyone was in bed by 10:30 or so. I woke up when I heard my son come into our room and whisper to his mommy that he thought he saw something, meaning he wanted to stay with us which is something that still happens every blue moon with him. My wife knows how to keep her distance from me in the bed and at times she has had no problem letting him sleep between us.
It was different last night; she kept him on her side of the bed and slid over next to me. I mean she was all up on me by 3 or 4 am. I was literally on the edge of my side of the bed with her whole body against mine...my son was draped across her too and his hand came across my face at one point but the point is she was intimately close to me last night. It felt good to me. I was steel hard when I got up to do my walk/run this morning...it's been more than a month sense we've had sex so my body was reacting to her being close to me like that.

Your opinions? I would love to have some female opinions as well.


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## weightlifter

Hot and cold. Been there doing that. Sorry Im worthless on this one but I identify with ya man!


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## BjornFree

bagdon said:


> As bad as things are between us, my gut feeling right now is that she hasn't cheated on me. I've been more aware of her comings and goings sense I read her diary...nothing I've observed is consistent with her seeing someone else. Now this unnamed person she was fantasizing about is still a mystery to me. The logical suspect would be someone from or connected with the writing organizations she participates in. They do frequent reading events where people do spoken word/poetry or read some parts of books they've written...that kind of vibe. Probably some smooth guy performing some erotic poetry or something. At any rate, the core people she hangs with in that group all know she's married and they've met me so it might be kind of awkward for her to openly flirt or get with someone like that.
> She attended a reading Sunday night and I was attentive to what time she left and what time she got back; everything seemed and felt like a regular reading; nothing suspicious. She takes pictures of most of the events she attends and I scanned through the camera the next morning before I left for work. Mostly pix of her book display and a few shots of people performing; I felt no cause for alarm.


Have you gone through her emails, her cellphone and fb?
If not do that first. 

Then you should stop speculating and throw her diary in her face and then throw her out on her ass unless she tells you everything that went/is going on with this unnamed stranger. Be sure that she will lie and call her out on those lies, demand a polygraph as a prerequisite for her to continue staying in the marriage. 

Your inaction and tendency to avoid conflict will be your undoing.


----------



## bagdon

BjornFree said:


> Have you gone through her emails, her cellphone and fb?
> If not do that first.
> 
> Then you should stop speculating and throw her diary in her face and then throw her out on her ass unless she tells you everything that went/is going on with this unnamed stranger. Be sure that she will lie and call her out on those lies, demand a polygraph as a prerequisite for her to continue staying in the marriage.
> 
> Your inaction and tendency to avoid conflict will be your undoing.


Dude, I'm trying to save my marriage not avoid conflict. My action right now is the 180. I have looked through her FB account and some emails; the time she wrote about this stranger was around October/November I think. I'm living with her and have known her for more than 15 years so I think I can trust my gut on this one. Any rash action right now may undo the trust and respect I'm trying to build now (this coming from a man who has read his wife's diary and checks her social accounts)
Yeah, It's crazy but it makes sense to me.


----------



## bagdon

I got a call from her just a little while ago today telling me she had two job interviews this week. I'm beginning to feel that deep down she want's this to work too. I believe after all these years she just doesn't want my current transformation to be another mirage.
I'm cleaning up my side of the street and making myself a better man; my self improvement process is for real and I'm into this for the long run. At the same time, I believe the success of my marriage will outweigh any other outcome concerning the wellbeing of my family. Today I'll be sending off my registration check for the Retrouvaille weekend marriage session scheduled for the first weekend in October.


----------



## Blonde

bagdon said:


> I was literally on the edge of my side of the bed with her whole body against mine...my son was draped across her too and his hand came across my face at one point but the point is she was intimately close to me last night. It felt good to me. I was steel hard when I got up to do my walk/run this morning...it's been more than a month sense we've had sex so my body was reacting to her being close to me like that.
> 
> Your opinions? I would love to have some female opinions as well.


If your son wasn't there, I'd know what to say...

Do you kiss her bagdon? Outside the bedroom?

I suggest really passionate suggestive kisses when there is no possibility of consummation. Like right before you go out to work, or right when she is leaving for something. Really kiss her *deep*


----------



## bagdon

Blonde said:


> If your son wasn't there, I'd know what to say...
> 
> Do you kiss her bagdon? Outside the bedroom?
> 
> I suggest really passionate suggestive kisses when there is no possibility of consummation. Like right before you go out to work, or right when she is leaving for something. Really kiss her *deep*


Not long ago in my nice guy state of mind I use to try and kiss her on the cheek in the mornings before I left for work while she was still in bed; she would literally turn her face when I tried that...she was repulsed by me during that time. 
I don't think we're at a point where she'll accept kisses from me.


----------



## Blonde

Not in bed and not on the cheek. At the door when on your way out. Deep kiss for a full minute or so.

To me, it recalls the dating/courting when we as FC's were chaste and the sexual tension builds and builds and you can't wait for the wedding night...

She's gotta be horny after a month. This teases her with the full benefits of married life that she is missing out on. One of these nights she will drape herself all over you WITHOUT the kid in the bed.


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## anchorwatch

It's more likely she is feeling relaxed around you, since you haven't pressured her about intimacy. Or, she felt safe with DS there.


----------



## Blonde

Don't take my suggestion as a formula, Bagdon. Follow your gut. If you don't think its time, then keep up the status quo for now. It sounds like you are on the right track.


----------



## Blonde

anchorwatch said:


> It's more likely she is feeling relaxed around you, since you haven't pressured her about intimacy. Or, she felt safe with DS there.


She'll feel safe when she or he is headed out the door too and there is *no possibility* of anything but that kiss...


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> I got a call from her just a little while ago today telling me she had two job interviews this week. I'm beginning to feel that deep down she want's this to work too. I believe after all these years she just doesn't want my current transformation to be another mirage.
> I'm cleaning up my side of the street and making myself a better man; my self improvement process is for real and I'm into this for the long run. At the same time, I believe the success of my marriage will outweigh any other outcome concerning the wellbeing of my family. Today I'll be sending off my registration check for the Retrouvaille weekend marriage session scheduled for the first weekend in October.


Have you talked to her about this Retrouvaille weekend marriage session ?


----------



## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Have you talked to her about this Retrouvaille weekend marriage session ?


I'll tell her the first week of August. She can either agree or not agree.


----------



## Blonde

Consider sending her the link by e-mail with a brief invitation to attend. I think if she reads on their site for herself she might be more open.


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## bagdon

Blonde said:


> Consider sending her the link by e-mail with a brief invitation to attend. I think if she reads on their site for herself she might be more open.


I like that idea. I do need to say something face to face too, I think. I think I should know how to approach it before then. Thank you.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> Last night was interesting...
> I got home around 6:45; my wife had already left for her zumba class. The children were there doing there thing and she left dinner on the oven. Anyway, I couldn't do some of the outdoor things I had planned to do that day like cut the grass because it was raining so I changed clothes, ate dinner and helped my daughter get some laundry done. My wife returned at a non suspicious time as I was bringing in some clothes from the laundry room...she seemed friendly and open when we greeted one another.
> Later that night I got a craving for something sweet to eat. Hindering my diet was out of the question so I chose some watermelon that had been in the fridge for some time. It tasted pretty good as I ate the whole piece that I cut; unfortunately, something wasn't right about it because I had to run outside and throw up shortly after I finished it.
> Everyone was checking on me and asking me if I was alright afterwards (I felt just fine afterwards). My wife was in the mist of getting herself cleaned up and taking a shower but she heard everything that was happening and checked on me too. Of course I went back and threw the rest of that watermelon away.
> I go to bed around 9:00pm every night now that I'm taking care of my body. I think everyone was in bed by 10:30 or so. I woke up when I heard my son come into our room and whisper to his mommy that he thought he saw something, meaning he wanted to stay with us which is something that still happens every blue moon with him. My wife knows how to keep her distance from me in the bed and at times she has had no problem letting him sleep between us.
> It was different last night; she kept him on her side of the bed and slid over next to me. I mean she was all up on me by 3 or 4 am. I was literally on the edge of my side of the bed with her whole body against mine...my son was draped across her too and his hand came across my face at one point but the point is she was intimately close to me last night. It felt good to me. I was steel hard when I got up to do my walk/run this morning...it's been more than a month sense we've had sex so my body was reacting to her being close to me like that.
> 
> Your opinions? I would love to have some female opinions as well.


I would not read into it her leaning into you in the bed. Cats do it too. So what? 
July 4th weekend she puts on her rings for a show in front of her brother. How long after she gt home did she take them off? Not a nice signal for her to send to your children BTW. Then she pulls the I don't really want to be in the family picture routine. Another one for the kids to witness.. Your children do not miss anything Bagdon, they see everything and it will shape their views

Then the dating question, "Mommy if you were dating".. Isn't your baby girl 12? pretty perceptive question for her to bring up. Your wife, instead of laying that whole topic to rest, instead of unequivocally stating she is married to you so dating is the last thing on her mind she hangs forever in a response. Not once but twice...

That was no accident Bagdon. Your baby girl is 12 years old. She sees everything. 

All that being said I would not read into her leaning on you in bed.


----------



## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> I would not read into it her leaning into you in the bed. Cats do it too. So what?
> July 4th weekend she puts on her rings for a show in front of her brother. How long after she gt home did she take them off? Not a nice signal for her to send to your children BTW. Then she pulls the I don't really want to be in the family picture routine. Another one for the kids to witness.. Your children do not miss anything Bagdon, they see everything and it will shape their views
> 
> Then the dating question, "Mommy if you were dating".. Isn't your baby girl 12? pretty perceptive question for her to bring up. Your wife, instead of laying that whole topic to rest, instead of unequivocally stating she is married to you so dating is the last thing on her mind she hangs forever in a response. Not once but twice...
> 
> That was no accident Bagdon. Your baby girl is 12 years old. She sees everything.
> 
> All that being said I would not read into her leaning on you in bed.


Well....Thanks for that reality check. I am still hopeful but I can't let that get in the way of just how uncontrollable this situation really is. Kinda bummed out now but it's past my bed time so I'll just go on to sleep now. Thanks for your view. I'm staying focused. I can only change my actions; I can handle whatever happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

It was not my intention to bum you out. I am only reacting to what I am reading. It makes me angry for you and your family. Stay strong. Stay focused. Do what you know is right.


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## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> It was not my intention to bum you out. I am only reacting to what I am reading. It makes me angry for you and your family. Stay strong. Stay focused. Do what you know is right.


No, Your input is very helpful. Like I said before, I need you all to help me stay balanced; I think I may have started leaning over into euphoria thinking she might actually have started feeling some attraction to me by now...I know it's too soon for that.

Mach was right about her being really far gone. There are years of layers of resentment and self justification for her feelings and emotions now and I don't know what has happened with her between then and now. She may be so entrenched in her beliefs and wants by now that chances of reconciliation without some form of separation may be miniscule.

I got home a little late last night as I made a detour to check out a gym. (I'll talk about that another time) I went ahead and cut the grass as soon as I got home; my neighbor even helped me out with the trimming. I finished about 8:45 or so. The rest of the family got home around 9:45 or so as they had gone out skating again. I was coming out of the shower when they arrived and the normal cheerful greetings and hugs from the kids felt good. My wife and I talked briefly about the details of her job interviews and the upcoming school year. It turns out that both of my daughters have been accepted into two different high schools in the neighboring city that I commute to work to everyday; my son will remain in the school they all use to attend together in the city we live in now. So our year is going to be very hectic with the kids all spread out. When I mentioned possibly moving sooner the expression on her face ( her back was kind of to me) felt to me like she was thinking, "_am I ever going to be rid of this guy. How am I going to separate from him if he is wanting to move when I get my jobs...._" Of course I'm speculating, but that's what the look felt like to me;(I read her diary remember) It was a split second look and I could feel our before basically non confrontational conversation turn. I could tell she was done talking from that point as she went into the other room. Oh, the jobs would both be in the neighboring city.

Last night I prayed for our family and for her to do well on the upcoming job interviews that are both set for Thursday now. We all held hands in the living room (even our dog was in the circle). As I prayed I kept my eyes open and looked around at everyone with their eyes closed and listening. First I thanked God for our family then I prayed for God to bless our family and not only for her to do well at the interviews and get the jobs but for it to be a blessing for our family. I made sure I was holding her hand in the circle; I looked at her as I was praying and the expression on her face was blank. I couldn't read what was going on in her mind.

She slept in her flannel PJ bottoms last night and didn't come anywhere near me. And she usually comes to bed long after I have been in there. I think it was around 11:30 or so.

This morning's workout was difficult to get into, if I really did. I know I didn't give it my all as I was pondering why I am doing this...I didn't feel "hopeful" this morning. As I pushed through the workout I finally came to the conclusion that I'm not just doing this for me but for our family...It can't just be about me. Doing it just for me wasn't inspiring enough. Don't get me wrong, I am taking care of myself and making my needs important.

I'm preparing myself for what seems will be some form of breaking of our family. Sadly, I realize if it weren't for our kids I may not have been as determined as I am right now and I know that she would have left by now. I love my wife and I want us to connect and be as "one". I hope and pray it's not too late; I'm not giving up.


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## weightlifter

Bag. Just keep yourself braced. Mach is really good at calling this stuff early.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> No, Your input is very helpful. Like I said before, I need you all to help me stay balanced; I think I may have started leaning over into euphoria thinking she might actually have started feeling some attraction to me by now...I know it's too soon for that.
> 
> Mach was right about her being really far gone. There are years of layers of resentment and self justification for her feelings and emotions now and I don't know what has happened with her between then and now. She may be so entrenched in her beliefs and wants by now that chances of reconciliation without some form of separation may be miniscule.
> 
> I got home a little late last night as I made a detour to check out a gym. (I'll talk about that another time) I went ahead and cut the grass as soon as I got home; my neighbor even helped me out with the trimming. I finished about 8:45 or so. The rest of the family got home around 9:45 or so as they had gone out skating again. I was coming out of the shower when they arrived and the normal cheerful greetings and hugs from the kids felt good. My wife and I talked briefly about the details of her job interviews and the upcoming school year. It turns out that both of my daughters have been accepted into two different high schools in the neighboring city that I commute to work to everyday; my son will remain in the school they all use to attend together in the city we live in now. So our year is going to be very hectic with the kids all spread out. When I mentioned possibly moving sooner the expression on her face ( her back was kind of to me) felt to me like she was thinking, "_am I ever going to be rid of this guy. How am I going to separate from him if he is wanting to move when I get my jobs...._" Of course I'm speculating, but that's what the look felt like to me;(I read her diary remember) It was a split second look and I could feel our before basically non confrontational conversation turn. I could tell she was done talking from that point as she went into the other room. Oh, the jobs would both be in the neighboring city.
> 
> Last night I prayed for our family and for her to do well on the upcoming job interviews that are both set for Thursday now. We all held hands in the living room (even our dog was in the circle). As I prayed I kept my eyes open and looked around at everyone with their eyes closed and listening. First I thanked God for our family then I prayed for God to bless our family and not only for her to do well at the interviews and get the jobs but for it to be a blessing for our family. I made sure I was holding her hand in the circle; I looked at her as I was praying and the expression on her face was blank. I couldn't read what was going on in her mind.
> 
> She slept in her flannel PJ bottoms last night and didn't come anywhere near me. And she usually comes to bed long after I have been in there. I think it was around 11:30 or so.
> 
> This morning's workout was difficult to get into, if I really did. I know I didn't give it my all as I was pondering why I am doing this...I didn't feel "hopeful" this morning. As I pushed through the workout I finally came to the conclusion that I'm not just doing this for me but for our family...It can't just be about me. Doing it just for me wasn't inspiring enough. Don't get me wrong, I am taking care of myself and making my needs important.
> 
> I'm preparing myself for what seems will be some form of breaking of our family. Sadly, I realize if it weren't for our kids I may not have been as determined as I am right now and I know that she would have left by now. I love my wife and I want us to connect and be as "one". I hope and pray it's not too late; I'm not giving up.


It is very disrespectful of your wife to keep her back turned during such an important conversation leaving you to wonder what she is thinking. Her contempt and disrespect drips. Tolerate no more of this. Enough is enough. Initiate no conversations concerning the future. I mean none. Zero. Do what you know needs to be done. You may want to say something so bad your testicles are trying to come out of your mouth. Don't initiate. Put your ****les back in place and bite your tongue. 

If I were you I would simply rent the house you need to rent that makes your work and children's commute work for all of YOU. Then move. When she squawks and squawks she will because she is delighting in blaming you for everything just tell her to be quiet. Remind her you tried to speak to her earlier multiple times and she dismissed you. When she squawks again tell her she is free to come along if she wants to stay married to you and work on the marriage. But only on that condition. When she squawks again and mentions not having a job hand her a job ad from Starbucks, a tent, a sleeping bag and a Google map to the nearest KOA and drawn up divorce papers. I assume she has not passed the bar yet. Throw in some bar exam schedules and prep class ad printout. Tell her you know by her actions the only reason she wants a job is to run away, and that she is being selfish and you are sick to death of how she treats you, especially in from of the kids.

You sound very good, very balanced. Keep it up.


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## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> It is very disrespectful of your wife to keep her back turned during such an important conversation leaving you to wonder what she is thinking.


Just want to be clear that when her back was turned she was in the process of putting clothes away that were left on the bed. so she was moving around in the room as I sat in the reclining chair in our bedroom...I would not have tolerated her back to me if we were supposed to be having a face to face conversation.

I do believe she doesn't respect me though.


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## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> If I were you I would simply rent the house you need to rent that makes your work and children's commute work for all of YOU. Then move. When she squawks and squawks she will because she is delighting in blaming you for everything just tell her to be quiet. Remind her you tried to speak to her earlier multiple times and she dismissed you. When she squawks again tell her she is free to come along if she wants to stay married to you and work on the marriage. But only on that condition. When she squawks again and mentions not having a job hand her a job ad from Starbucks, a tent, a sleeping bag and a Google map to the nearest KOA and drawn up divorce papers. I assume she has not passed the bar yet. Throw in some bar exam schedules and prep class ad printout. Tell her you know by her actions the only reason she wants a job is to run away, and that she is being selfish and you are sick to death of how she treats you, especially in from of the kids.
> 
> You sound very good, very balanced. Keep it up.


It's funny, I talked earlier in this thread about looking for a house (That's when she wrote in her diary that she had decided to not write off her marriage).
My thoughts at the time was exactly to just find a place on my own and let her decide weather or not she would join me...the place would be mine. That was back in November/December. Lately, I've been scanning homes and apartments for rent. The things I already inherently know I should do have been obvious for some time I guess. You all are helping me bring clarity to my decisions.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> Just want to be clear that when her back was turned she was in the process of putting clothes away that were left on the bed. so she was moving around in the room as I sat in the reclining chair in our bedroom...I would not have tolerated her back to me if we were supposed to be having a face to face conversation.
> 
> I do believe she doesn't respect me though.


She _*could *_have turned around. She *could *have said lets talk about this later or tomorrow. She *could *have spoken with her back turned in a adult engaging manner. She *chose *not to. At all.


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## Blonde

Yeah, treat the mother of your children like garbage that you throw by the curbside.

How did that work for ya, Bib? Never mind, this is bagdon's thread.

She's been a lawyer for a long time, BTW, and she's a published author WHILE being SAHM IIRC. And I for one LOVE how respectful and honoring Bagdon is when he speaks of her. It is rare and refreshing and I think it reflects well on Bagdon's heart.

Bagdon, I think you'll find out one way or the other when you invite her to Retrouvaille. They interview the couple and they won't accept couples where there is an active affair going on. If she has a tiny spark of motivation to make one last attempt to fix your marriage, if not for love but for the sake of the children/her marriage vows/her faith... then I think she'll attend Retrouvaille with you. If not, then at least you will know where you stand.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

She wants to leave. She acts like she wants to leave. How is that throwing her out? She has money in her business account. She can use it. 

Why don't you comment on how she treats him? Why does he have to be a doormat for her abuse? In front of her children no less. 

Yes, it is Bagdon's tread.


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## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> She wants to leave. She acts like she wants to leave. How is that throwing her out? She has money in her business account. She can use it.
> 
> Why don't you comment on how she treats him? Why does he have to be a doormat for her abuse? In front of her children no less.
> 
> Yes, it is Bagdon's tread.


I don't want to be a doormat and I really don't think she is being dramatically obvious to everyone around her about her desire to leave. I just happen to know without a doubt, she wants to leave because, Keep in mind, _I read the woman's diary_. I may be hyper sensitive to whatever twitch or scratch she makes based on that alone. I write about it.

A lot of my posts on here are my feelings and reactions to what's going on in our everyday lives because I read her feelings. "I actually read her mind." I don't know how she's feeling from day to day and I don't seek to know because I have implemented the 180. 

No doubt, our marriage is in grave danger.

As I go through this recovery process and strengthen my character as a man, I keep in mind that I am her husband. I'm the stronger vessel; I'm the captain of this ship called "Our family". I've made a decision to do EVERYTHING I can to fulfill my promise to love and not forsake her as well as be a great father to our children. Some times it requires tenderness and compassion; other times it's tough love. I've made mistakes; done some things I'm not proud of; She probably has too; but who hasn't? I've learned that I can live with that.

So, as I said earlier, she doesn't have to love me right now...she's lost, hurting and doesn't realize the true detriment of breaking up our family. I believe I do. I'm strong enough to endure her rejection for a time to fulfill the greater purpose of saving our lives, our love and our family. 

That's my core belief. You all have been great with resources, opinions and sound counsel. You're keeping me sane and balanced through this journey. Exciting isn't it!


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## bagdon

I believe that we will win when it's all said and done. What that "win" will look like.....WHO KNOWS.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> I don't want to be a doormat and I really don't think she is being dramatically obvious to everyone around her about her desire to leave. I just happen to know without a doubt, she wants to leave because, Keep in mind, _I read the woman's diary_. I may be hyper sensitive to whatever twitch or scratch she makes based on that alone. I write about it.
> 
> A lot of my posts on here are my feelings and reactions to what's going on in our everyday lives because I read her feelings. "I actually read her mind." I don't know how she's feeling from day to day and I don't seek to know because I have implemented the 180.
> 
> No doubt, our marriage is in grave danger.
> 
> As I go through this recovery process and strengthen my character as a man, I keep in mind that I am her husband. I'm the stronger vessel; I'm the captain of this ship called "Our family". I've made a decision to do EVERYTHING I can to fulfill my promise to love and not forsake her as well as be a great father to our children. Some times it requires tenderness and compassion; other times it's tough love. I've made mistakes; done some things I'm not proud of; She probably has too; but who hasn't? I've learned that I can live with that.
> 
> So, as I said earlier, she doesn't have to love me right now...she's lost, hurting and doesn't realize the true detriment of breaking up our family. I believe I do. I'm strong enough to endure her rejection for a time to fulfill the greater purpose of saving our lives, our love and our family.
> 
> That's my core belief. You all have been great with resources, opinions and sound counsel. You're keeping me sane and balanced through this journey. Exciting isn't it!


I said doormat because in certain ways (I do not mean *all* ways) she treats you like something she stepped on. As far as obvious she is being obvious enough around your children. That is really all that matters as you know. They are clearly seeing the signals and reacting as normal adolescents do.


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## bagdon

BTW, her diary has been stuffed away in a bag for some time now. I have no desire or interest in reading another word from it. If we survive this, Our own close communication will be more than enough.


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## Tall Average Guy

Blonde said:


> She's been a lawyer for a long time, BTW, and she's a published author WHILE being SAHM IIRC.


Lest we forget, she quit being a lawyer because she did not like it. He had to support her in her journey to be a published author. Doing so resulted in a depletion of their savings that prevents her from more writing. Despite this, she is upset over the financial and living situation, yet does not appear to want to get a job to assist in things. He is required to support the team, her, not so much.



> And I for one LOVE how respectful and honoring Bagdon is when he speaks of her. It is rare and refreshing and I think it reflects well on Bagdon's heart.


As wonderful as it is, I am not sure it has gotten him very far. In being so respectful, he has ignored a fair amount of disrespectful behavior. For example, wearing the rings around her brother than taking them off when she gets home is a slap in the face and just plain dishonest. I recommend calling her on it in a very calm, even way. Make clear to her that you see if for what it is.



> Bagdon, I think you'll find out one way or the other when you invite her to Retrouvaille. They interview the couple and they won't accept couples where there is an active affair going on. If she has a tiny spark of motivation to make one last attempt to fix your marriage, if not for love but for the sake of the children/her marriage vows/her faith... then I think she'll attend Retrouvaille with you. If not, then at least you will know where you stand.


I agree that this is likely your last hope. There is a benefit for reaching the end, even if it is not the end you hope for. I wish you luck.


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## bagdon

Tall Average Guy said:


> For example, wearing the rings around her brother than taking them off when she gets home is a slap in the face and just plain dishonest. I recommend calling her on it in a very calm, even way. Make clear to her that you see if for what it is.


Wearing the rings: 
She wears them pretty much everyday I see her...remember, I don't know if she takes them off when I'm not around; I doubt it.
I was pissed that she didn't have them on the morning of the day I was off; she was home all day and there's a lot of stuff she didn't do that morning. I was upset because I never take mine off and she has to remember to put hers on. She eventually put them on before we pulled out on our trip to GA. and she's worn them every day sense.
We went through the wearing of the rings phase a couple years ago so I think she's decided to keep them on to keep me quiet.

Just wanted to clarify.


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## Tall Average Guy

bagdon said:


> Wearing the rings:
> She wears them pretty much everyday I see her...remember, I don't know if she takes them off when I'm not around; I doubt it.
> I was pissed that she didn't have them on the morning of the day I was off; she was home all day and there's a lot of stuff she didn't do that morning. I was upset because I never take mine off and she has to remember to put hers on. She eventually put them on before we pulled out on our trip to GA. and she's worn them every day sense.
> We went through the wearing of the rings phase a couple years ago so I think she's decided to keep them on to keep me quiet.
> 
> Just wanted to clarify.


Thank you for the clarification. My sense from your posts is that you wife does not respect you, and has been disrespectful on occasion through words and action. This was the first example I remembered.

Is my sense accurate, or do you think her respecting you is not a problem?

Also, what is your impression on my comment that she expects you to support the team while she does not have to. Is that accurate, or not.


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## bagdon

Tall Average Guy said:


> Thank you for the clarification. My sense from your posts is that you wife does not respect you, and has been disrespectful on occasion through words and action. This was the first example I remembered.
> 
> Is my sense accurate, or do you think her respecting you is not a problem?
> 
> Also, what is your impression on my comment that she expects you to support the team while she does not have to. Is that accurate, or not.


Respect:
I do not believe she respects me. That's part of her not loving me I think. That is a problem. I can't change her but I'm hoping she will reevaluate her view of me as I clean my side of the street. I can only present the best me I can be and let her make a decision on that. August is my deadline for the respect thing to start turning around if she agrees to Retrouvaille.

Support:
She is aware that I support our family financially but somewhere in her frustration with acquiring a job and pursuing her dreams there is a disconnect between us on the method of being financially stable.
I've told her that I want to support our family on just my income if necessary but that would require us living within our means----Living within our means is the disconnect. She's use to having money but not on how to be financially free. that's always been my goal. She's never been patient with my systematic time consuming but sure way of building financial stability. She's always wanted it now and my mistake was always caving to her desires wanting to please her even though I knew it would cost us in the long run.


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## Blonde

Tall Average Guy said:


> Lest we forget, she quit being a lawyer because she did not like it. He had to support her in her journey to be a published author. Doing so resulted in a depletion of their savings that prevents her from more writing. Despite this, she is upset over the financial and living situation, yet does not appear to want to get a job to assist in things. He is required to support the team, her, not so much.


I see.

So, being a SAHM does not "support the team"?

Frankly, I find that attitude toward SAHM disrespectful and discounting.

My job as a SAHM was 24/7 120 hours a week. Working a mere 40 hours is a cake walk in comparison

And some men will then turn around and whine about feminism and how women don't want to be "traditional" anymore...

Damned if we do and damned if we don't...


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## Tall Average Guy

bagdon said:


> Respect:
> I do not believe she respects me. That's part of her not loving me I think. That is a problem. I can't change her but I'm hoping she will reevaluate her view of me as I clean my side of the street. I can only present the best me I can be and let her make a decision on that. August is my deadline for the respect thing to start turning around if she agrees to Retrouvaille.


You are absolutely correct that you cannot make her respect you. I like your time lime and focus on Retrouvaille.

Do be aware and stop her if she is disrespectful. It can be a fine line, as you need to prevent it, yet also can't hammer every little remark that could be interpreted a certain way. But I think expecting respectful behavior is a reasonable boundary for you to have.



> Support:
> She is aware that I support our family financially but somewhere in her frustration with acquiring a job and pursuing her dreams there is a disconnect between us on the method of being financially stable.
> I've told her that I want to support our family on just my income if necessary but that would require us living within our means----Living within our means is the disconnect. She's use to having money but not on how to be financially free. that's always been my goal. She's never been patient with my systematic time consuming but sure way of building financial stability. She's always wanted it now and my mistake was always caving to her desires wanting to please her even though I knew it would cost us in the long run.


I think you need to continue to be strong about this. When she pushes back, you need to invite her to offer positive solutions. For example, where would she cut back, what about a part time job for her, what about a timeline? You can't dictate, but you can expect her to be part of the solution, as opposed to sitting on the side lines and taking pot shots.


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## LostViking

Clean up your side of the street Bagdon. Become a better man and a better person. 

But do it for yourself. Not for your wife or anyone else. You came into this world alone and you will leave this world alone. You have to be the best you can be for yourself first before you can be good for anyone else. 

Your wife will either jump aboard the train with you or you will leave her behind. That is HER choice.


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## bagdon

Tall Average Guy said:


> You are absolutely correct that you cannot make her respect you. I like your time lime and focus on Retrouvaille.
> 
> Do be aware and stop her if she is disrespectful. It can be a fine line, as you need to prevent it, yet also can't hammer every little remark that could be interpreted a certain way. But I think expecting respectful behavior is a reasonable boundary for you to have.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you need to continue to be strong about this. When she pushes back, you need to invite her to offer positive solutions. For example, where would she cut back, what about a part time job for her, what about a timeline? You can't dictate, but you can expect her to be part of the solution, as opposed to sitting on the side lines and taking pot shots.


Based on my NMMNG studies I've learned that I always used the committee method on lots of decisions. ( nice guy mentality) I realize now that she would have preferred I make the final decision on a lot of things if for nothing else to show some assertiveness. I would later cave on decisions we discussed always bending to please her knowing that it wasn't the best thing for our family. "covert contracts" Now we're in this financial predicament after all these years to living in my mom's house . And I have blown up at her about things that didn't pan out right because we didn't stick to the plan I originally suggested. I'm sure that made her feel unloved and unprotected because I was basically blaming her for things I should have been more firm and taken responsibility for. There in lies the respect issue. She can't love a man she doesn't respect.
Mind you, I would warn her before I allowed whatever thing we decided to do happen and decided in myself that what needs to happen will just take a little longer. Of course it was still my fault because I didn't assert myself to stop or change her mind. I'm telling you, I was deeply buried in the nice guy mentality. I'm recovering now. 
It's going to be hard for her to see that part of me changing after so many years...she sees me as a weak leader and I let people , including her get over on me because I was trying so hard to please.


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## bagdon

Blonde said:


> I see.
> 
> So, being a SAHM does not "support the team"?
> 
> Frankly, I find that attitude toward SAHM disrespectful and discounting.
> 
> My job as a SAHM was 24/7 120 hours a week. Working a mere 40 hours is a cake walk in comparison
> 
> And some men will then turn around and whine about feminism and how women don't want to be "traditional" anymore...
> 
> Damned if we do and damned if we don't...


First of all our kids are not toddlers anymore so they weren't in day care or home with her all day. In fact she worked more outside the house when they were little than now.
One thing she could have done better was been more appreciative in whatever state we were in at the time as we built toward a better future. She was always complaining about what could be better or where she wanted to be right now. Hearing that kind of talk almost everyday was just draining to the spirit and it didn't help that she was very impatient with the success plans I would present. I mean I had spread sheets/ charts/ the works when I would present my plans to her. She didn't start getting interested in that stuff till finding work wasn't easy anymore and we were financially struggling. By then it was going to take twice as long as I originally pitched.

Now her ambitions are just to get away from me and find a little place to raise "her" kids and screw somebody that turns her on...


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## LostViking

Bagdon yor wife is a "grass is greener on the other side" kind of person. My second wife was the same way: never satisfied with anything, easily bored, no real consistent passion for anything in life. 

Oh, and of course it was all my fault that I could not provide her those things. 

I don't miss it.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> First of all our kids are not toddlers anymore so they weren't in day care or home with her all day. In fact she worked more outside the house when they were little than now.
> One thing she could have done better was been more appreciative in whatever state we were in at the time as we built toward a better future. She was always complaining about what could be better or where she wanted to be right now. Hearing that kind of talk almost everyday was just draining to the spirit and it didn't help that she was very impatient with the success plans I would present. I mean I had spread sheets/ charts/ the works when I would present my plans to her. She didn't start getting interested in that stuff till finding work wasn't easy anymore and we were financially struggling. By then it was going to take twice as long as I originally pitched.
> 
> Now her ambitions are just to get away from me and find a little place to raise "her" kids and screw somebody that turns her on...


I am really sorry dude, That is what I read. You hit the nail on the head.


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## Tall Average Guy

Blonde said:


> I see.
> 
> So, being a SAHM does not "support the team"?


Not financially. And if that is her biggest issue (and it appears to be), then no it is not. 



> Frankly, I find that attitude toward SAHM disrespectful and discounting.
> 
> My job as a SAHM was 24/7 120 hours a week. Working a mere 40 hours is a cake walk in comparison


So a husband does nothing around the house once he is done with work? Funny how you just ignored his contributions while focusing on yours. 

I have not seen anywhere that the OP does nothing around the house. So to assume that a SAHM does everything, but a man who works then does nothing is just as insulting.



> And some men will then turn around and whine about feminism and how women don't want to be "traditional" anymore...
> 
> Damned if we do and damned if we don't...


Not at all. You are reading way to much into this. My wife is a SAHM and I respect her greatly. But she does not complain about finances, either. And that is the issue I see here - one that you ignore in your rush to indignation.

He did support her, spending savings to allow her to quit her job and be a writer. It is great that she is published, but it does not pay the bills. So now, they are in a weaker financial spot and forced to live next to his mom, a position that his wife clearly does not want. That is not a judgment, but it is reality So how does that problem get solved? 

My point is the life is about trade offs. She apparently wants to continue to be a SAHM. Nothing wrong with that. The trade off is that it will take longer to get a house. But she does not like that either. She also complained about even a part time job. The impression that I get, confirmed by bagdon, is that she wants everything now without any trade offs and is resentful that bagdon is not providing it. I wonder is she is unwilling to admit that some of her choices are part of this mix.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

bagdon said:


> Based on my NMMNG studies I've learned that I always used the committee method on lots of decisions. ( nice guy mentality) I realize now that she would have preferred I make the final decision on a lot of things if for nothing else to show some assertiveness.


Part of it can be figuring out your respective strengths and then deferring. 



> I would later cave on decisions we discussed always bending to please her knowing that it wasn't the best thing for our family. "covert contracts" Now we're in this financial predicament after all these years to living in my mom's house . And I have blown up at her about things that didn't pan out right because we didn't stick to the plan I originally suggested.


That is on you, because it blames her for your failure to stand up on following the plan. 



> I'm sure that made her feel unloved and unprotected because I was basically blaming her for things I should have been more firm and taken responsibility for. There in lies the respect issue. She can't love a man she doesn't respect.
> Mind you, I would warn her before I allowed whatever thing we decided to do happen and decided in myself that what needs to happen will just take a little longer.


The warning does not matter. If it is important to you, then you stand up for it at the time. Waiting for things to go bad and then finger point is wrong.



> Of course it was still my fault because I didn't assert myself to stop or change her mind. I'm telling you, I was deeply buried in the nice guy mentality. I'm recovering now.
> It's going to be hard for her to see that part of me changing after so many years...she sees me as a weak leader and I let people , including her get over on me because I was trying so hard to please.


Keep working on that. It is all you can do.


----------



## bagdon

A little more background on us:

We grew up in the same small town that we're living in now. My wife was two grades behind me so we didn't run in the same circles but I knew of her because she was horribly bullied her whole social life in school (thick glasses, introverted, buck tooth, smart kid)
Academically she was a star. Always receiving awards and scholarships. She went on to college and graduated uneventfully but shortly afterwards she blossomed into a very fine attractive young woman. (still with a bit of an overbite though)
My grade school years were spent with my twin brother and although we weren't the most popular kids in school we hung with the "in" crowd. I was an average academic student. I had no ambitions for college and went into the marines right out of high school.
I really got to know my wife in the church we began attending. that's where it all began for us. My brother and I were musically talented and sort of became Christian superstar singers in the church; traveling the nation and internationally performing. I don't want to come off conceited but we are not bad looking dudes. I would go as far as above average looks. We had no shortage of young and older female admirers...my wife included.
At first my wife was just like the other young ladies that tried to get next to me and my brother. After a while I could tell she was definitely infatuated with me. We dated very briefly and I really liked her but she was just too into me and clingy at the time so I broke it off.
I wound up getting into a serious LTR with another girl in the church and broke up with her after 3 years. During that last year of that relationship my wife had come into her own and was "all that" and more. She was in law school and traveling and living on her own- no roommates. (she often talked about how much she loved living on her own back then) She was definitely not thinking about me ( I know she still liked me) and that made her that much more attractive to me; I started having dreams about her. I eventually got the nerve to approach her through our pastor and it was on from there. We had a whirlwind courtship and got married less than a year after that. As you can see I never developed any "game" because the girls always came to us.
I knew I was ready to get married but I really didn't know how to be married even after our premarital counseling. I jumped into being a husband and eventually a father...didn't know what I was doing but I welcomed the journey. Fast forward 15 years later and here we are.


----------



## bagdon

That background story left out a lot but it's kind of an overview of us.

I do know that when our marital problems started to come to a head years ago I couldn't put it all on my wife. Something in me was telling me that no matter who I married that It would get all messy like this. I always knew I was missing something or something just wasn't jelling right inside me as far as manhood goes. 

I know now about nice guy syndrome. Wish I had known sooner but everything happens for a reason. I want to be a better man for me and I want to make my wife happy again.

I know what a better me looks like because I experienced it before I married my wife; That's one of the reasons she married me I'm sure. I was confident and unafraid of mistakes or failure. Man, my beta traits went into overdrive after I got married and morphed into the man I was a month ago. I bummed myself out after reading some of it. 

After reading my background story does anybody feel there is any hope for us?


----------



## anchorwatch

bagdon said:


> After reading my background story does anybody feel there is any hope for us?


Yes!


----------



## anchorwatch

You are no different than the rest of us. Marriage and relationships are not taught in our schools. Some learn to imitate from example or use the trial and error method. That works for most, but is imperfect and can go wrong. Some don't try to do anything and just go along for the ride. You can guess where their headed. You on the other hand, have reached out and found ideas that actually can effect your situation. That's so much more than most do, Bagdon. So yes there is hope. It's never too late to change your life.


----------



## Blonde

bagdon said:


> First of all our kids are not toddlers anymore so they weren't in day care or home with her all day. In fact she worked more outside the house when they were little than now.


In many ways the schedule is busier/more demanding when they are in school, though.

There are days when I have driven 150 miles just chauffering kids (course we live in the sticks 8 miles from the school)

Preseason soccer alone is 64 miles of driving (two practices daily/round trip)

I homeschooled for 5 years and that was way easier than having them in school with all their activities and all the driving...

It's a matter of priorities and lifestyle choices. Some people want the wife out working and bringing home as much bacon as possible. I pinched every penny until it screamed and was home with the kids as much as possible.

Haven't had any pregnant nor drug addicted teenagers yet. They are all productive taxpayers so far.

And bagdon, as a SAHM, one time I earned @ $100K for @4 hours of work! Helped my HS senior get her supplementary materials ready to get off Harvard's waiting list. She had no driver's license and could not have done it without me (had to go back and forth to school and post office, etc). She got off the wait list and has had $100K in grants for her 4 years there due to their generous policies toward low income families. 

^^silver lining to the low income! Now that I work too, goodbye financial aid!


----------



## Thor

Separations initiated by a woman almost universally mean she wants to test out some other men. Even if she denies up front she has any intention of dating, it is most likely going to happen. By dating I mean sex with other men.

Most of the time I would suggest just filing for D rather than doing an official separation.


----------



## LostViking

Thor said:


> Separations initiated by a woman almost universally mean she wants to test out some other men. Even if she denies up front she has any intention of dating, it is most likely going to happen. By dating I mean sex with other men.
> 
> Most of the time I would suggest just filing for D rather than doing an official separation.


I agree. My second wife wanted to do a "test separation" to see if it would re-kindle our feelings for each other. I wasnt having it. I told her no, and that we needed to file and get it over with. 

Within days after we filed for legal separation and divorce she had moved into a small apartment and began dating other men. I mean the ink wasn't even dry on the divorce agreement. To say I was irked was an understatement, but I played nice and we divorced peacefully. 

But yes, when a woman wants a separation, a husband should be very wary.


----------



## weightlifter

LostViking said:


> I agree. My second wife wanted to do a "test separation" to see if it would re-kindle our feelings for each other. I wasnt having it. I told her no, and that we needed to file and get it over with.
> 
> Within days after we filed for legal separation and divorce she had moved into a small apartment and began dating other men. I mean the ink wasn't even dry on the divorce agreement. To say I was irked was an understatement, but I played nice and we divorced peacefully.
> 
> But yes, when a woman wants a separation, a husband should be very wary.


QUOTED FOR TRUTH HOW MANY TIMES HERE?

RNS for one


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Thor said:


> Separations initiated by a woman almost universally mean she wants to test out some other men. Even if she denies up front she has any intention of dating, it is most likely going to happen. By dating I mean sex with other men.
> 
> Most of the time I would suggest just filing for D rather than doing an official separation.


Was separation mentioned in this thread?


----------



## Blonde

bagdon said:


> I was an average academic student. I had no ambitions for college and went into the marines right out of high school.
> ...
> During that last year of that relationship my wife ... was in law school and traveling and living on her own...


So, you were a Christian rock star?. Cool!

How would that work if your wife was a high powered lawyer and your career as a smokin hot rock star is over and other options have not gotten traction? Maybe it is a God thing that she has NOT gotten a high powered law job.

I know you mentioned earlier building up your career and earning potential as part of your 180. If I was in your shoes, I might take some classes in that direction while you are working at the university (I assume they let you take classes for free?)

For me, I chose the second career by noticing who is hiring in the middle of nowhere and how much the pay was for the amt of time in school. Nurses were in short supply and were so coveted we get signing bonuses. Lots of pragmatism in my decision. If I lived in a big city, I might have gone another direction (like your wife, I had a professional education I didn't stay with once the children came along). 

Anyway, I for one think it is the wrong approach to pick on your wife for being an arrogant lazy good for nothing leech because she's been a SAHM and hasn't landed a lawyer job and didn't like the teacher's aide job (not that you are doing that bagdon, but that is how I perceive the attitude of some posters)


----------



## Blonde

Wife as sugar mama can work I suppose but I think it takes a special couple to pull it off. I'm worried about my 18yod because she is going to be a professional (PA) and her serious BF is a fundy christian from a homeschooling family of 9 who is not going to college...

I'm afraid of the potential for him to be very insecure in the relationship and use the FC wife submission stuff oppressively. His family goes to a church where women veil and are not allowed to speak AT ALL during church or bible studies. Scary!

Equally yoked is safest IMO. Wish my daughter would marry another professional.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Blonde said:


> Wife as sugar mama can work I suppose but I think it takes a special couple to pull it off. I'm worried about my 18yod because she is going to be a professional (PA) and her serious BF is a fundy christian from a homeschooling family of 9 who is not going to college...
> 
> I'm afraid of the potential for him to be very insecure in the relationship and use the FC wife submission stuff oppressively. * His family goes to a church where women veil and are not allowed to speak AT ALL during church or bible studies. Scary!*
> 
> Equally yoked is safest IMO. Wish my daughter would marry another professional.


They must be very picky about what parts of the bible they're studying. Is she planning to join this church, or does she expect him to leave it?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Blonde said:


> Anyway, I for one think it is the wrong approach to pick on your wife for being an arrogant lazy good for nothing leech because she's been a SAHM and hasn't landed a lawyer job and didn't like the teacher's aide job (not that you are doing that bagdon, but that is how I perceive the attitude of some posters)


I would agree if that is all it was. But it isn't. She is upset over their financial situation, because she wants to move into a different house. But she does not want to do anything to anything about it. She wants her choices (quitting her job to be a SAHM, pursuing writing and not keeping the teachers aid job) to not have consequences (less money for the family). Nothing wrong with any of her choices. They are all reasonable and being a SAHM is supporting the family in many ways. But it does not do much for income levels. It is a trade-off that she does not want to make.

I don't think she is arrogant, but she is unrealistic.


----------



## Blonde

Tall Average Guy said:


> pursuing writing


and she had a modestly successful first book 

My husband has a PhD in physics. He took some dead end jobs along the way and IMO it was a waste of his time and talents. He would have been better off spending time networking (which he eventually did and it paid off).

Honey, why on earth are you applying to the POST OFFICE when you have all this education and talent to offer to the world? :scratchhead:

I think his wife settling for a lowly teacher's aide might subconsciously be holding herself back so that she doesn't outshine him. Just a theory which comes out of my own experiences and womanly instincts.

For my husband, his parents never graduated high school. His dad was a farmer and my husband was sickly and asthmatic so my husband experienced massive amounts of rejection and negative words about his potential in life. He spent way too long living down to his daddy's expectations...


----------



## bagdon

Good Afternoon!

Last night my wife did a ministerial presentation at our church entitled, Developing a Winning Mind As an Entrepreneur in Your Family. It was a two page presentation printed on both sides; she had our children get up and share scriptures within the text and even called me up to make a brief comment about how proud we are of our children. It became very clear to me that my wife has been paying attention in the "Financial Peace" classes and she admitted her short comings concerning finances. (I'm the nerd, she's the free spirit)---You'll get it if you took the class.
It was well received by the audience and well put together. When I went to hug her afterwards she really gave me a good strong squeeze this time right in front of baby girl. 

I'm getting really good hopeful feelings again about our relationship.

Today is her big interview day. I started my day as usual at 5am with my fitness routine (2 mile walk/run) and had some really good meditation time. On the drive to work I decided I was going to give her a call about an hour and a half before the first interview. When I called she was still at home getting ready; I could tell she was nervous. I told her I was thinking about her and letting her know that I was still "touching and agreeing" from our prayer the other night and I knew she would do well at the interviews. She said she was feeling nervous and she would try not to blow it. I enthusiastically told her "You got this!" just giving her a little pep talk. She told me she would call me after each interview. I get the feeling she appreciated the call. Both jobs are attorney positions that involve heavy writing skills (right up her alley)

She called me immediately after the first interview and said except for the first question she feels it went really well. She had over an hour until the next interview so I suggested we meet somewhere for lunch and bring it back to my office; She declined the lunch and said she would just eat after the interviews. I was like no problem, I'll talk to you later. I didn't realize she was saying she was skipping the lunch and coming straight to my office. I was on the TAM sight when she came to my door...Thank God my office door was locked! It gave me just enough time to change the browser window and get up to open the door.(my door has a window so she could see me inside) Again, fortunately, she had to use the bathroom when she came in so she steps in just enough to put her stuff on my desk and go back out to the restroom; that's when I began deleting all my TAM visits on the computer. Whew!

Anyway, I let her sit at my desk online on my computer as we talked about the first interview. Turns out her stomach was upset so she couldn't eat anything anyway. It was a good interview IMO. I think she did well. We talked a lot about the upcoming school year and how we would manage the commute and school schedules should she get the job. We also chatted about other off topic stuff so It was a very productive and friendly get together. I eventually saw her off to her next interview. She called me immediately after that one and said it went really well and she felt good about it. we even chatted a little on the phone about other stuff. We should know something about the jobs by the 22nd-26th of July. Today has been a really good day for me so far. 

I felt good vibes from her all day starting with the morning phone call. I have remained focused on my self improvement goals and I'm looking forward to talking with her about Retrouvaille next month. I just feel good right now and I want my life to continue to move toward positive things as I make myself better.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> Good Afternoon!
> 
> Last night my wife did a ministerial presentation at our church entitled, Developing a Winning Mind As an Entrepreneur in Your Family. It was a two page presentation printed on both sides; she had our children get up and share scriptures within the text and even called me up to make a brief comment about how proud we are of our children. It became very clear to me that my wife has been paying attention in the "Financial Peace" classes and she admitted her short comings concerning finances. (I'm the nerd, she's the free spirit)---You'll get it if you took the class.
> It was well received by the audience and well put together. When I went to hug her afterwards she really gave me a good strong squeeze this time right in front of baby girl.
> 
> I'm getting really good hopeful feelings again about our relationship.
> 
> Today is her big interview day. I started my day as usual at 5am with my fitness routine (2 mile walk/run) and had some really good meditation time. On the drive to work I decided I was going to give her a call about an hour and a half before the first interview. When I called she was still at home getting ready; I could tell she was nervous. I told her I was thinking about her and letting her know that I was still "touching and agreeing" from our prayer the other night and I knew she would do well at the interviews. She said she was feeling nervous and she would try not to blow it. I enthusiastically told her "You got this!" just giving her a little pep talk. She told me she would call me after each interview. I get the feeling she appreciated the call. Both jobs are attorney positions that involve heavy righting skills (right up her alley)
> 
> She called me immediately after the first interview and said accept for the first question she feels it went really well. She had over an hour until the next interview so I suggested we meet somewhere for lunch and bring it back to my office; She declined the lunch and said she would just eat after the interviews. I was like no problem, I'll talk to you later. I didn't realize she was saying she was skipping the lunch and coming straight to my office. I was on the TAM sight when she came to my door...Thank God my office door was locked! It gave me just enough time to change the browser window and get up to open the door.(my door has a window so she could see me inside) Again, fortunately, she had to use the bathroom when she came in so she steps in just enough to put her stuff on my desk and go back out to the restroom; that's when I began deleting all my TAM visits on the computer. Whew!
> 
> Anyway, I let her sit at my desk online on my computer as we talked about the first interview. Turns out her stomach was upset so she couldn't eat anything anyway. It was a good interview IMO. I think she did well. We talked a lot about the upcoming school year and how we would manage the commute and school schedules should she get the job. We also chatted about other off topic stuff so It was a very productive and friendly get together. I eventually saw her off to her next interview. She called me immediately after that one and said it went really well and she felt good about it. we even chatted a little on the phone about other stuff. We should know something about the jobs by the 22nd-26th of July. Today has been a really good day for me so far.
> 
> I felt good vibes from her all day starting with the morning phone call. I have remained focused on my self improvement goals and I'm looking forward to talking with her about Retrouvaille next month. I just feel good right now and I want my life to continue to move toward positive things as I make myself better.


i am happy for you.


----------



## whowouldhavethought

Blonde said:


> and she had a modestly successful first book


Please, please, please, quit talking about her moderately successful first book.

I was a professional writer. I have over 75 published articles plus 10 books, five by major publishing houses. Out of the 10, only *ONE* earned its advance back. And it sold year after year.

In the book writing business, *many are called, few are chosen. * 

WWHT


----------



## Thor

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Was separation mentioned in this thread?





bagdon said:


> She may be so entrenched in her beliefs and wants by now that chances of reconciliation without some form of separation may be miniscule.


----------



## bagdon

whowouldhavethought said:


> Please, please, please, quit talking about her moderately successful first book.
> 
> I was a professional writer. I have over 75 published articles plus 10 books, five by major publishing houses. Out of the 10, only *ONE* earned its advance back. And it sold year after year.
> 
> In the book writing business, *many are called, few are chosen. *
> 
> WWHT


She may be one of the chosen. Eventually


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Blonde said:


> and she had a modestly successful first book


Yes, but it did not and does not pay the bills. Perhaps she honestly believes she is on a path to being a financially successful writer.



> My husband has a PhD in physics. He took some dead end jobs along the way and IMO it was a waste of his time and talents. He would have been better off spending time networking (which he eventually did and it paid off).
> 
> Honey, why on earth are you applying to the POST OFFICE when you have all this education and talent to offer to the world? :scratchhead:
> 
> I think his wife settling for a lowly teacher's aide might subconsciously be holding herself back so that she doesn't outshine him. Just a theory which comes out of my own experiences and womanly instincts.


That could be. I could also see her thinking anything less than being a lawyer is beneath her. Or that she views taking a job as quitting her dream of being a writer. Or maybe some combination.


----------



## bagdon

Blonde said:


> and she had a modestly successful first book
> 
> My husband has a PhD in physics. He took some dead end jobs along the way and IMO it was a waste of his time and talents. He would have been better off spending time networking (which he eventually did and it paid off).
> 
> Honey, why on earth are you applying to the POST OFFICE when you have all this education and talent to offer to the world? :scratchhead:
> 
> I think his wife settling for a lowly teacher's aide might subconsciously be holding herself back so that she doesn't outshine him. Just a theory which comes out of my own experiences and womanly instincts.
> 
> For my husband, his parents never graduated high school. His dad was a farmer and my husband was sickly and asthmatic so my husband experienced massive amounts of rejection and negative words about his potential in life. He spent way too long living down to his daddy's expectations...


She didn't settle for a "lowly" teacher's aide job, that's all she could get in this area at the time. There's a whole dynamic canvas you're missing in your theory. And I have no problem with her "outshining" me. She knows I want her to succeed as well.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

bagdon said:


> Good Afternoon!
> 
> Last night my wife did a ministerial presentation at our church entitled, Developing a Winning Mind As an Entrepreneur in Your Family. It was a two page presentation printed on both sides; she had our children get up and share scriptures within the text and even called me up to make a brief comment about how proud we are of our children. It became very clear to me that my wife has been paying attention in the "Financial Peace" classes and she admitted her short comings concerning finances. (I'm the nerd, she's the free spirit)---You'll get it if you took the class.
> It was well received by the audience and well put together. When I went to hug her afterwards she really gave me a good strong squeeze this time right in front of baby girl.
> 
> I'm getting really good hopeful feelings again about our relationship.
> 
> Today is her big interview day. I started my day as usual at 5am with my fitness routine (2 mile walk/run) and had some really good meditation time. On the drive to work I decided I was going to give her a call about an hour and a half before the first interview. When I called she was still at home getting ready; I could tell she was nervous. I told her I was thinking about her and letting her know that I was still "touching and agreeing" from our prayer the other night and I knew she would do well at the interviews. She said she was feeling nervous and she would try not to blow it. I enthusiastically told her "You got this!" just giving her a little pep talk. She told me she would call me after each interview. I get the feeling she appreciated the call. Both jobs are attorney positions that involve heavy writing skills (right up her alley)
> 
> She called me immediately after the first interview and said except for the first question she feels it went really well. She had over an hour until the next interview so I suggested we meet somewhere for lunch and bring it back to my office; She declined the lunch and said she would just eat after the interviews. I was like no problem, I'll talk to you later. I didn't realize she was saying she was skipping the lunch and coming straight to my office. I was on the TAM sight when she came to my door...Thank God my office door was locked! It gave me just enough time to change the browser window and get up to open the door.(my door has a window so she could see me inside) Again, fortunately, she had to use the bathroom when she came in so she steps in just enough to put her stuff on my desk and go back out to the restroom; that's when I began deleting all my TAM visits on the computer. Whew!
> 
> Anyway, I let her sit at my desk online on my computer as we talked about the first interview. Turns out her stomach was upset so she couldn't eat anything anyway. It was a good interview IMO. I think she did well. We talked a lot about the upcoming school year and how we would manage the commute and school schedules should she get the job. We also chatted about other off topic stuff so It was a very productive and friendly get together. I eventually saw her off to her next interview. She called me immediately after that one and said it went really well and she felt good about it. we even chatted a little on the phone about other stuff. We should know something about the jobs by the 22nd-26th of July. Today has been a really good day for me so far.
> 
> I felt good vibes from her all day starting with the morning phone call. I have remained focused on my self improvement goals and I'm looking forward to talking with her about Retrouvaille next month. I just feel good right now and I want my life to continue to move toward positive things as I make myself better.


This is great. One suggestion is to take her temperature about writing and whether she wants to continue. If she does, brainstorm with her on ideas for her to continue doing so. Her working to get this job is about supporting you and the family. show her that in doing so, you will still support her.


----------



## bagdon

Tall Average Guy said:


> This is great. One suggestion is to take her temperature about writing and whether she wants to continue. If she does, brainstorm with her on ideas for her to continue doing so. Her working to get this job is about supporting you and the family. show her that in doing so, you will still support her.


Her writing ambitions have not slowed. She told me about a meeting she's having this Monday with some people that will help with her research on the current novel she's working on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

Bag. You do see how one sided this is?


----------



## Blonde

bagdon said:


> She may be one of the chosen. Eventually


:smthumbup: Good for you, bagdon.

Among the most hurtful things my husband has done to me is not being supportive of my dreams (the poor baby had to pull more weight around the homestead when I went back to school and then work). After I followed him around the world for 25 years pursuing his dreams...  Her buddies in the writing group are supportive. My buddies in nursing school were AWESOME!

Occurs to me that she could consider local politics (town or county). That would look great on a resume.


----------



## Blonde

bagdon said:


> She didn't settle for a "lowly" teacher's aide job, that's all she could get in this area at the time. There's a whole dynamic canvas you're missing in your theory. And I have no problem with her "outshining" me. She knows I want her to succeed as well.


As I said, her writer friends are *supportive* of her dreams.

Most of the posts on this thread are not. They are critical and utilitarian with no vision nor faith in her talent nor potential. 

I heard this song last night on the radio and the Lord laid on my heart to give it to you, bagdon Kutless, What Faith Can Do (lyrics!) - YouTube 

For your marriage and for your wife's career and yours

I've seen dreams that move the mountains
Hope that doesn't ever end
Even when the sky is falling
I've seen miracles just happen
Silent prayers get answered
Broken hearts become brand new
That's what faith can do

Overcome the odds
You don't have a chance
(That's what faith can do)
When the world says you can't
It [faith]'ll tell you that you can


----------



## Blonde

Nucking Futs said:


> They must be very picky about what parts of the bible they're studying. Is she planning to join this church, or does she expect him to leave it?


Thankfully the BF has thus far refused to join (and is considered "rebellious" for that decision). My dd is going to college and he is staying here. Not sure the relationship will survive the test of distance and time? 

And I have to stay out of it because my experience with teenagers is that the more a parent questions their romantic interest, the more interested they are.

/tangent


----------



## bagdon

weightlifter said:


> Bag. You do see how one sided this is?


yes


----------



## weightlifter

Bag. Believe it or not. I AM hoping you get the result you want. I just kind of doubt it. I do hope you prevail despite the odds.


----------



## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> She didn't settle for a "lowly" teacher's aide job, that's all she could get in this area at the time. There's a whole dynamic canvas you're missing in your theory. *And I have no problem with her "outshining" me.* She knows I want her to succeed as well.


But that's a problem for* her.*

Do you understand how/why that is the case?


----------



## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> But that's a problem for* her.*
> 
> Do you understand how/why that is the case?


Hmm....Didn't think of it that way. I have put a lot of my original ambitions on the back burner trying to be a good husband and father. unfortunately, I was doing it in the "nice guy" paradigm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bagdon

weightlifter said:


> Bag. Believe it or not. I AM hoping you get the result you want. I just kind of doubt it. I do hope you prevail despite the odds.


I Know man. You all can only go by my perceptions of what I write in here. There are other subtle things that keep me believing there is yet hope. I'm really working on myself; difficult at times but worth it all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bagdon

Another thing that's come to my attention is she is planning and doing conference trips out of state and everything. She's pursuing her dream...Meanwhile I became stagnant and too cautious, trying to be a "responsible" husband & father.... I'm learning.
She is responding positively to the 180. I'll expound on that later. Bout to get some sleep.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

Bag there is almost always hope. I put the odds at 35% 6 mos and 20% 1 year. Stiff odds but not unwinnable.

I dont put them at 1% or something but definitely under 50%.


----------



## Machiavelli

weightlifter said:


> Bag there is almost always hope. I put the odds at 35% 6 mos and 20% 1 year. Stiff odds but not unwinnable.
> 
> I dont put them at 1% or something but definitely under 50%.


Everybody thinks I'm simplistic, but a new physique alone, and the outside attention it brings, can be a game changer. Put that with a proper understanding of female hypergamous tendencies, which is what is at the root of this whole thing, combined with a dominant male attitude and anything is possible.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Machiavelli said:


> Everybody thinks I'm simplistic, but a new physique alone, and the outside attention it brings, can be a game changer. Put that with a proper understanding of female hypergamous tendencies, which is what is at the root of this whole thing, combined with a dominant male attitude and anything is possible.


Its true actually, when wives see their husbands get in shape and look more physically attractive they respnd very positively most of the time. Women like decsivness. It may be shallow but shallow things matter too.


----------



## tom67

Machiavelli said:


> Everybody thinks I'm simplistic, but a new physique alone, and the outside attention it brings, can be a game changer. Put that with a proper understanding of female hypergamous tendencies, which is what is at the root of this whole thing, combined with a dominant male attitude and anything is possible.


By working out you show her whether limbic brain or not that if she decides to move on you are more than prepared aka self confidence.


----------



## AlphaProvider

PreRaphaelite said:


> Its true actually, when wives see their husbands get in shape and look more physically attractive they respnd very positively most of the time. Women like decsivness. It may be shallow but shallow things matter too.


And if people want to downplay the physical... Think about this, many men and women will bed people and be hot for them who don't have much going on for them, but a body...

So if you have other things going on for you and a body, your going to have pretty good odds.


----------



## Machiavelli

PreRaphaelite said:


> Its true actually, when wives see their husbands get in shape and look more physically attractive they respnd very positively most of the time. Women like decsivness. It may be shallow but shallow things matter too.


More than any of us really want to admit.


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## AlphaProvider

Machiavelli said:


> More than any of us really want to admit.


Thats got me working so hard... I accept it makes up a huge chunk of the perception of the image.


----------



## bagdon

weightlifter said:


> Bag there is almost always hope. I put the odds at 35% 6 mos and 20% 1 year. Stiff odds but not unwinnable.
> 
> I dont put them at 1% or something but definitely under 50%.


Believe it or not, considering how distraught I was on day one I like those odds.


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## bagdon

Good Afternoon!

Let me start this post by backtracking a little. 

Permalink #397/July 9th:
I talked about how she was laying really close to me in bed that night. MMSLP talks about learning your wife's minstrual cycle; remember the "big interview" day last Thursday when her stomach was upset and she didn't want to eat lunch before the next interview? Turns out she was really in PMS and bleeding by the next day. based on my backtracking of her minstrual cycle I'm willing to bet she was ovulating that night and feeling a little horny. So my son coming in the room could have been just a perfect excuse for her to get next to somebody even if it was "just me".

Confident/Assertive/Friendly:
We went to the funeral of one of her relatives on Saturday. A two and a half hour drive one way. My whole attitude and demeanor that day was that of a guy supporting the family during the loss of a loved one; not as a wimpy husband trying to hold on to his wife.
I was assertive and friendly all day. At one point after the services during the dinner I was very assertive at getting my family (including my wife) a good spot in the line; I actually heard someone saying under his breath "Aw, hell no!" as I blocked the line to let my four family members get in ahead of me... and I didn't care that he was upset! In the old days I wouldn't do that kind of stuff, always trying not to ruffle anyone's feathers. My wife seemed happy to move up through the crowd in front of me as I bore the brunt of adgitated onlookers.... I'll have to finish this later...

She seems interested:

(I listened to my alpha male subliminal while typing this)


----------



## BjornFree

bagdon said:


> Good Afternoon!
> Confident/Assertive/Friendly:
> We went to the funeral of one of her relatives on Saturday. A two and a half hour drive one way. My whole attitude and demeanor that day was that of a guy supporting the family during the loss of a loved one; not as a wimpy husband trying to hold on to his wife.
> I was assertive and friendly all day. At one point after the services during the dinner I was very assertive at getting my family (including my wife) a good spot in the line; I actually heard someone saying under his breath "Aw, hell no!" as I blocked the line to let my four family members get in ahead of me... and I didn't care that he was upset! In the old days I wouldn't do that kind of stuff, always trying not to ruffle anyone's feathers. My wife seemed happy to move up through the crowd in front of me as I bore the brunt of adgitated onlookers.... I'll have to finish this later...
> 
> She seems interested:
> 
> (I listened to my alpha male subliminal while typing this)


I'm not sure if that alpha male suliminal thingy is working for you because your attitude still comes across as obsequious.

Stop trying to impress her. Stop trying to be that little boy who runs around the playground doing stuff just so he can see if the girl is watching him. I'm not telling you this to demean your or to discourage you from becoming more assertive. You don't call it assertive or dominant when you hope that your boss notices you and gives you a raise because at the end of the day she's still the boss. Get it?


----------



## bagdon

BjornFree said:


> I'm not sure if that alpha male suliminal thingy is working for you because your attitude still comes across as obsequious.
> 
> Stop trying to impress her. Stop trying to be that little boy who runs around the playground doing stuff just so he can see if the girl is watching him. I'm not telling you this to demean your or to discourage you from becoming more assertive. You don't call it assertive or dominant when you hope that your boss notices you and gives you a raise because at the end of the day she's still the boss. Get it?


Got it... I didn't finish the post but I see how it could come across that I was performing for her. Not at all. I should have deleted some of the post after I said I had to go. Those were notes to more that I was going to say. A lot has happened and I'm growing. I'm in this personal improvement for the long haul. This won't stop if she turns around and tells me she can't live without me now. My marriage is a major goal but it essentially will be icing on the cake as I continue to improve my life. I have some more details to post later... Catching up on some work I've neglected since my world was turned upside down. I'm in a staff meeting now; I shall return.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BjornFree

bagdon said:


> Got it... I didn't finish the post but I see how it could come across that I was performing for her. Not at all. I should have deleted some of the post after I said I had to go. Those were notes to more that I was going to say. A lot has happened and I'm growing. I'm in this personal improvement for the long haul. This won't stop if she turns around and tells me she can't live without now. My marriage is a major goal but it essentially will be icing on the cake as I continue to improve my life. I have some more details to post later... Catching up on some work I've neglected since my world was turned upside down. I'm in a staff meeting now; I shall return.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good luck bagdon. 

In addition to all those alpha male things you should also start learning the art of being detached from the outcome. Its a process. You'll get there.


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## bagdon

BjornFree said:


> Good luck bagdon.
> 
> In addition to all those alpha male things you should also start learning the art of being detached from the outcome. Its a process. You'll get there.


I am indeed, slowly detaching from the out come. I can only control my actions; I can handle whatever happens. I'm still getting there but I'm way closer to detaching than I was before. However, I perceive some positive reactions from my wife as I stay disciplined to my self improvement process and You all know my ultimate goal is to reconcile & strengthen our marriage. 
I still have hope in the relationship right now. I appreciate the candid and honest opinions and recommendations...keep me balanced!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bagdon

Today I had a meeting with my supervisor to inform him about my personal problems as it definitely was affecting my productivity.
He had indeed noticed the drop off in my production and said he could only speculate before. We had a good conversation about it; He gave some very insightful thoughts and opinions about it and sounded like a lot of you guys giving me advice. He pointed out that I had turned a corner in being able to talk to him about it and thanked me for that. He also said that he thought I was handling the situation well and commended me on taking charge to do something about it. He's on his third marriage and said he wished he had been aware of online support groups. 

I pulled out one of my business self help books last night (E Myth Mastery) and began reacquainting myself with some business principles to ignite my company.

One day at a time.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

bagdon said:


> Good Afternoon!
> 
> Let me start this post by backtracking a little.
> 
> Permalink #397/July 9th:
> I talked about how she was laying really close to me in bed that night. MMSLP talks about learning your wife's minstrel cycle; remember the "big interview" day last Thursday when her stomach was upset and she didn't want to eat lunch before the next interview? Turns out she was really in PMS and bleeding by the next day. based on my backtracking of her minstrel cycle I'm willing to bet she was ovulating that night and feeling a little horny. So my son coming in the room could have been just a perfect excuse for her to get next to somebody even if it was "just me".
> 
> Confident/Assertive/Friendly:
> We went to the funeral of one of her relatives on Saturday. A two and a half hour drive one way. My whole attitude and demeanor that day was that of a guy supporting the family during the loss of a loved one; not as a wimpy husband trying to hold on to his wife.
> I was assertive and friendly all day. At one point after the services during the dinner I was very assertive at getting my family (including my wife) a good spot in the line; I actually heard someone saying under his breath "Aw, hell no!" as I blocked the line to let my four family members get in ahead of me... and I didn't care that he was upset! In the old days I wouldn't do that kind of stuff, always trying not to ruffle anyone's feathers. My wife seemed happy to move up through the crowd in front of me as I bore the brunt of adgitated onlookers.... I'll have to finish this later...
> 
> She seems interested:
> 
> (I listened to my alpha male subliminal while typing this)


So wait, women have minstrel cycles? Is that when they sing for sex or sing while having sex?? I thought it took a certain kind of man to make her do that


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## bagdon

PreRaphaelite said:


> So wait, women have minstrel cycles? Is that when they sing for sex or sing while having sex?? I thought it took a certain kind of man to make her do that


I knew it would be only a matter of time before someone called me out on that. Too lazy to correct it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Quant

Dude that sucks you don't need love for a successful marriage however as most of history is filled with successful loveless marriages.


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## bagdon

Quant said:


> Dude that sucks you don't need love for a successful marriage however as most of history is filled with successful loveless marriages.


I need love for a successful marriage.


----------



## luv2luv

bagdon said:


> Good Afternoon!
> 
> 
> We went to the funeral of one of her relatives on Saturday. A two and a half hour drive one way. My whole attitude and demeanor that day was that of a guy supporting the family during the loss of a loved one; not as a wimpy husband trying to hold on to his wife.
> I was assertive and friendly all day. At one point after the services during the dinner I was very assertive at getting my family (including my wife) a good spot in the line; I actually heard someone saying under his breath "Aw, hell no!" as I blocked the line to let my four family members get in ahead of me... and I didn't care that he was upset! In the old days I wouldn't do that kind of stuff, always trying not to ruffle anyone's feathers. My wife seemed happy to move up through the crowd in front of me as I bore the brunt of adgitated onlookers.... I'll have to finish this later...


Bag I have been following your journey from the beginning and I have nothing but respect for how you are trying to fix your marriage and better yourself while showing your wife kindness. I can't say much about the situation because you have all these people trying to help you and it seems to be working. 

This is a question not about your marriage but about this specific post, you guys cut in line? So 70 people are waiting, your family starts at #71 but instead you go to #30 with your kids and wife and pretty much say f*ck you to everyone who actually waits in line. That seems really inconsiderate in general. (Line cutting its something I think about)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bagdon

luv2luv said:


> Bag I have been following your journey from the beginning and I have nothing but respect for how you are trying to fix your marriage and better yourself while showing your wife kindness. I can't say much about the situation because you have all these people trying to help you and it seems to be working.
> 
> This is a question not about your marriage but about this specific post, you guys cut in line? So 70 people are waiting, your family starts at #71 but instead you go to #30 with your kids and wife and pretty much say f*ck you to everyone who actually waits in line. That seems really inconsiderate in general. (Line cutting its something I think about)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 It was no big deal...they were all technically "family" lol!... I didn't actually cut in line, I made sure to get a good spot before the rest of my immediate family got in the building (they were delayed chatting and socializing with some other close family) I simply let my wife and three children come up in front of me. 

Thanks for the encouragement! I need it today!


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## bagdon

I know this is old stuff but I want opinions to what this means...
My wife wrote a facebook post on May 31st saying, 

"Since when was the presence or absence of a wedding ring a prerequisite for a man to be a gentleman?" 

I saw it soon after she wrote it and every time I see it I wonder what does she mean by that? 

I guess you can tell I'm feeling a little blue today; just not liking the idea of my wife not respecting or loving me. Thinking about how I failed myself and my family up to this point. Don't worry, this bout of depression shouldn't last long I hope. I suppose this is part of the process of improving and getting back on top. So I embrace even the times that feel so crappy.
I'm living and I'm getting better.


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## weightlifter

any incidents around then?

Could be as simple as some DB without a wedding ring cutting in front of her in line.


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## bagdon

weightlifter said:


> any incidents around then?
> 
> Could be as simple as some DB without a wedding ring cutting in front of her in line.


I'm sure something probably happened that day but I was never able to bring myself to question her about it. Today I feel like back then she was saying she wanted a better man and wanted to get rid of the unsuccessful, living in his mom's house, wimp she was with....just feeling crappy today... and it has nothing to do with how she's been responding to me lately. All of her latest interactions with me have been positive; she's even calling me more and wanting to know when and where I'll be.

I just want to be doing better already.


----------



## Nucking Futs

bagdon said:


> "Since when was the presence or absence of a wedding ring a prerequisite for a man to be a gentleman?"


I doubt this is about you at all. My guess is some guy acted like a douche to her. Maybe hit on her and when she said she was married got on to her about no rings.


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## bagdon

Nucking Futs said:


> I doubt this is about you at all. My guess is some guy acted like a douche to her. Maybe hit on her and when she said she was married got on to her about no rings.


She's told me about guys hitting on her before. It felt like she was saying there was nothing I could or would do about it even when I acted jealous. I would say stuff like didn't he see the ring on your finger?! She'd say that doesn't stop some of these guys. Some times I can tell when a woman is giving off vibes like she wants me to talk to her and I personally feel that she was just giving off that "unhappy with my man vibe"...you might have a chance. 
Hey I'm depressed today...nothing but negative thoughts coming out of me right now; I'll get over it.


----------



## Thound

bagdon said:


> She's told me about guys hitting on her before. It felt like she was saying there was nothing I could or would do about it even when I acted jealous. I would say stuff like didn't he see the ring on your finger?! She'd say that doesn't stop some of these guys. Some times I can tell when a woman is giving off vibes like she wants me to talk to her and I personally feel that she was just giving off that "unhappy with my man vibe"...you might have a chance.
> Hey I'm depressed today...nothing but negative thoughts coming out of me right now; I'll get over it.


Nobody can be happy everyday. Just be positive and upbeat when you are around the wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bagdon

Thound said:


> Nobody can be happy everyday. Just be positive and upbeat when you are around the wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah...I guess you all are helping me vent this out now; I'm spose to meet them at church tonight after work. I'll be ready by then.


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## bandit.45

Your wife is a piece of work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bagdon

bandit.45 said:


> Your wife is a piece of work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Carful, I'm expressing my feelings about her and our situation...I don't know what she's actually thinking. Everyone on here will tell you that I will defend her in a heartbeat. I'm the only one that can tear her a new one because she's my wife and I love her. She may leave me; Who knows. 

Loving her the best I can right now, in our darkest hour actually makes me feel better about myself and my character. 

Wow...Thanks Bandit, I needed that.


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## bagdon

I feel better! Things will turn around for us in time as I stay the course.

Thank God for TAM. You all are the best!


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## GTdad

bagdon said:


> Things will turn around for us in time as I stay the course.


I hope so, Bagdon. I think you've been making progress on that front.

But I suggest you won't be in a place you need to be until you reach the point where divorce is something that is an option on the table, a choice that you're willing to exercise depending on how much progress your wife is making.


----------



## bagdon

GTdad said:


> I hope so, Bagdon. I think you've been making progress on that front.
> 
> But I suggest you won't be in a place you need to be until you reach the point where divorce is something that is an option on the table, a choice that you're willing to exercise depending on how much progress your wife is making.


I agree. I'm getting there.


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## GTdad

bagdon said:


> I agree. I'm getting there.


If nothing else, it's one less thing to be afraid of. And that's not a put-down; I could tell you all about fear.


----------



## bagdon

GTdad said:


> If nothing else, it's one less thing to be afraid of. And that's not a put-down; I could tell you all about fear.


Tell me a little about your experience with fear.


----------



## GTdad

bagdon said:


> Tell me a little about your experience with fear.


Oh hell, where to start.

Does my wife love me? What if she doesn't?

What if she finds out about my bouts of self-doubt? About how weak I feel sometimes?

Am I good enough?

Am I going to screw the kids up? (Needless to say, my childhood wasn't the best, which I think is where alot of this stuff comes from in the first place.)

And snakes, of course.

It's a cliche, but I finally, after decades, became sick and tired of being sick and tired. It's been a process, one which will doubtless continue for maybe the rest of my life, but I'm changing my thinking and outlook in so many ways. 

Regarding the fear, it's the constant self-affirmation that I'm doing my reasonable best on all fronts (which is truer now than in the past), and that whatever happens, I can handle it.

Divorce is on the table for me now. I'm no longer afraid of it. And now my marriage is better than it's been in a long time, because God loves irony.


----------



## Blondilocks

bagdon, please do yourself a favor and stop trying to decipher her diary entries. They were a thought at that given time. She may not even remember what she was writing about. Hell, five minutes later her thoughts may have done a 180. Don't assume that just because it was in her diary that it's her gospel.

And, I doubt there is a spouse alive who hasn't for one moment/day/week absolutely hated their spouse with a vengeance. Diaries are a good place to vomit those feelings.


----------



## bagdon

Blondilocks said:


> bagdon, please do yourself a favor and stop trying to decipher her diary entries. They were a thought at that given time. She may not even remember what she was writing about. Hell, five minutes later her thoughts may have done a 180. Don't assume that just because it was in her diary that it's her gospel.
> 
> And, I doubt there is a spouse alive who hasn't for one moment/day/week absolutely hated their spouse with a vengeance. Diaries are a good place to vomit those feelings.


Thanks, I realize that and I no longer read her diary. That last thing was a Facebook post.


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## Blondilocks

Same advice. Wash, rinse, repeat.


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## bagdon

I met the family at church last night. I was already in the building when they arrived and they didn't see me when they walked in. When I spotted them I went over and my two daughters jumped up and gave me a big hug and kisses; my wife stood off to the side by the chairs. I went over and gave her a warm hug after my daughters finished with me. She feigned a very subtle but welcome surprise as I approached her for a hug...it was a genuine hug; she squeezed back.(I think she really wanted me to do that) My son was, of course off in the children's area with his friends already; he ran and gave me a big hug when I found him.

The message was good, I thought; The pastor has a very strong Island accent so it was hard to follow what he was saying at times but I gleaned a lot of edifying stuff out of it. Unfortunately, he's known to be long winded and naturally he went over his time by about 30 minutes I think. Then they asked me to do the closing prayer and benediction. (They seem to think I am called to be a minister...I don't know; not my ambition)

Anyway, I left the church very shortly after that because by then it was almost 9:00pm; the church is in the city I commute to work to so I knew by the time I got home, ate and showered it would be way past my bedtime. I try to get at least 8 hours of sleep every night. That's one reason I don't go to all of the Wednesday night services. My two daughters road home with me. My wife stayed for a short meeting with some of the ladies in the church and arrived home with my son about 20 minutes later.
I was coming out of the shower when they arrived. It felt to me, everyone was upbeat and happy...I felt happy. My wife was very conversational with me and seemed like she wanted to just share her day...it was weird because she seemed to be in every room with me as I moved around. (I wasn't following her around for a change)

I normally wear a tank top t-shirt and shorts to bed and that's what I had on after I got out of the shower and went to the kitchen to prepare something to eat. My wife and I chatted about the new sheets she bought for the children's beds and the healthy groceries she bought and just general banter between us and the kids...I could be wrong but as I had my back slightly turned to the microwave I think she may have been checking me out. Even I'm starting to notice the ever so subtle physical changes to my body.

Some of you don't know this but I decided I wanted to resume praying with my family every night before I went to bed. I started it back just this past Sunday night. They all seem calmed by me taking the initiative to make sure we pray together. Even though I only just started back doing this for four days now they quickly assembled when I announced that I was ready to pray (which also meant I was about to go to bed). Our family prayers last maybe 3 or 4 minutes maybe longer if someone else has something they want to add. 

The crazy thing is that I felt so horny as I was ending up. I mean I had to almost run out of the room because I couldn't stop the erection that was starting to bulge through my shorts. I was like that on and off most of the night.....


----------



## bagdon

Oh! My wife came to bed the same time I did last night...well I guess it was late but she was right there watching one of her favorite mystery shows on her laptop with headphones on as I went to sleep.
Actually, before I went to sleep she looked at me and asked, "Was it just me or did you not understand anything the minister was talking about tonight?" We both knew it was hard to understand him and kind of chuckled a bit about it... it felt good that she wanted to share that too. I want to develop Phelio in our relationship. (Don't know if I spelled that right.)


----------



## weightlifter

LOL your life is a G rated soap opera except for the boner part.


----------



## Thound

Sounds great. Just be careful and not transition to friends/roomate relationship. At some point the two of you will need to be in an intimate relationship. Just throwing that out there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bagdon

Thound said:


> Sounds great. Just be careful and not transition to friends/roomate relationship. At some point the two of you will need to be in an intimate relationship. Just throwing that out there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As horny as I was feeling last night and as horny as I know she can be (based on the diary) That will have to happen at some point. I want her to want me and not some other guy. Man, I still get a little jealous and steamed just thinking she would seriously want someone else. 
Don't get me started...


----------



## bagdon

I've mapped out an estimated chart of her menstrual cycle which puts her ovulating somewhere around Tuesday and Thursday next week. (That's right, I'm using every tool you all have exposed to me)

I don't have a plan or anything other than observing her demeanor and such. I'll admit, after last night though, I would really like some good meaningful sex with my wife. I wouldn't want to blow it with bad sex so...I don't know. She may not even be ovulating or she's probably still "...not physically attracted to him in any way". I'm letting my mind get the best of me again aren't I? 

What I really want more than anything is for her to respect and love me. I have to get my life together. I am getting my life together. Today I received a linked-in invitation to apply as a filmmaker through a former client of mine...looks like it could turn into something worthwhile and sustaining for my company and family If I take this by the horns. I'm optimistic about it. I'm not letting anything slip by this time.


----------



## BrockLanders

bagdon said:


> I've mapped out an estimated chart of her menstrual cycle which puts her ovulating somewhere around Tuesday and Thursday next week. (That's right, I'm using every tool you all have exposed to me)
> 
> I don't have a plan or anything other than observing her demeanor and such. I'll admit, after last night though, I would really like some good meaningful sex with my wife. I wouldn't want to blow it with bad sex so...I don't know. She may not even be ovulating or she's probably still "...not physically attracted to him in any way". I'm letting my mind get the best of me again aren't I?
> 
> What I really want more than anything is for her to respect and love me. I have to get my life together. I am getting my life together. Today I received a linked-in invitation to apply as a filmmaker through a former client of mine...looks like it could turn into something worthwhile and sustaining for my company and family If I take this by the horns. I'm optimistic about it. I'm not letting anything slip by this time.


I think you're overthinking this. You should instigate sex with your wife when you want it. There's no reason to plot graphs of her menstrual cycle or anything of that lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Bagdon, how are you holding up?


----------



## Blonde

No news is good news, I presume


----------



## bagdon

Hello Everyone.
Let's get right into it....
Last Friday (7.19.13) We attended a service at our church called spiritual encounter. The guest speaker hit on a lot of the stuff me and my wife are going through; he even talked about the "grass is greener" frame of mind. He even hit on stuff that seemed to come out of the NMMNG book about not loving yourself and feeling unloved and afraid from childhood. The text he used was Isaiah 43:18-19. His last prayer included words like, "God doesn't want a divorce/ separation... I want reconciliation...." It was an incredible and powerful message that my wife, later that night without going into detail, told me she took to heart. 

As I said before things have been inching in a positive direction. The next day we were scheduled to produce a short documentary video together for a mental health organization my wife is involved with. My wife wrote the script and conducted the interview; I recorded it. We had a good day working together and just seeming to move a little closer in our relationship. That morning on the way to the shoot we chatted about the message the night before; I could tell the message along with witnessing my ongoing self improvement gave her an extra jolt of reevaluation. I was on a high that day too. I felt good about myself and just happy with the way she was responding...she even smiles at me now.

Later that day I read the post from Brocklanders suggesting that I was over thinking sex with my wife...I took it to heart and "instigated" sex with her; I was staying busy throughout the day and just taking care of things I had been putting off. At one point we were talking about something and I changed the subject at the end of her thought and said with a smile to her, " I think we should encourage all the kids to spend the night at their grand mother's tonight." It caught her completely off guard as a split second later she realized what I was saying and just smiled and sat back in her seat from her laptop. I quickly carried on with what I was doing and as I was walking out the door said , "Just a suggestion, no pressure." Still smiling.

We continued our day still chatting and doing stuff that typically happens on Saturdays; I arranged the whole thing making sure the kids stayed even when they thought they had a choice at first. Around 9:30pm or so I successfully had the kids next door for the night; After walking the last of them over I arrived back home and prepared for bed. She was still at her laptop typing away. I finished up the dishes and passing by her on my way to bed for the night I stopped and smiled at her and clasped my hands together giving her my best mischevious smile bouncing my eyebrows up and down saying, "We're alone at last!" and went on to bed.

I'd say almost an hour later she came into the bedroom. At that point I was close to being very asleep. The room was completely dark by then and I could hear her taking off her dress and changing into night clothes. She slipped into bed...I don't remember what I said but she responded yes, she was ready. We had sex that night...two rounds of pretty good sex; from the way she was responding to me, this was not pity sex.

After sex we talked till the wee hours of the morning. (2:00am) She admitted to me a lot of the stuff I read in her diary (I did not tell her I read it) THe diary didn't even come up. A lot of the stuff you all were suggesting she was feeling...she is afraid. Oh, and the facebook comment was about some guy hitting on her in the wal mart parking lot; she was struggling with a lot of groceries she was putting in the car and when she told the guy she was married he made no attempt to help her; not that she wanted him to. She agreed to Retrouvaille and I sent her a link to the site later on that morning. I think I tilted too far with enthusiasm and moving too fast toward reconciliation. I think I may have started revealing too much about my self improvement goals and other feelings.

On Tuesday I purchased T5LL and HNHN. Wednesday night she slept a sheet above me; I asked her about it later the next day. she said se was just hot and I didn't make a big deal out of it. Even though we're talking or I should say I'm talking to her and really opening up like never before, I still feel like she's still holding back and doesn't love me...she's still not sold on our relationship I feel. She told me about her woman to woman counsel meeting on wednesday and said her counselor told her she could see the changes in her as my wife told her things were starting to move in a positive direction. Wednesday night we had sex again...she initiated it as I was spooning her. (BTW that is right around my ovulation calculations) It was good and she talked dirty.

Last night we/I talked more and I revealed to her my feelings of her holding back. She told me she feels things are starting to go too fast and she's still not there yet. That hurt but I understood...I have a way to go and like I said I'm into my self improvement for the long haul. I left out a few other details that I'll prob post later but that's where we are right now...please continue to pray for us and our family.


----------



## LonelyinLove

Prayers here...


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Glad to hear you made progress.


----------



## Thound

Like the song says" one day at a time"


----------



## weightlifter

Dude. You got some in who knows how long.

Make it a pattern.


----------



## anchorwatch

Best news I heard this week!!! 

Can you see my smile?

Stat the course.....


----------



## bagdon

Another good day today. I've decided to let her initiate our next "relationship" conversation. Tonight I will keep it light as a feather.
I've decided to keep up my efforts to learn how to love my wife. She's not there yet and I'll honor her feelings and continue to give her time to decide to make the effort and put in her side of the work to love me. I know that''s a decision she will have to come to completely on her own. The point is, I've made mine and I feel good about it. T5LL is really giving me more insight into love and marriage. I'm not afraid anymore and divorce is on the table.
I've been internalizing my life ambitions and dreaming more about how to grow my company and create financial opportunities for myself and my family. I'm keeping it simple and letting my thoughts and plans grow with the company. I've been spending more time meditating on some of the principles suggested in NMMNG and I'm feeling positive and excited about my outlook on life and opportunities. One day at a time.
I can only control my actions, I can handle whatever happens.


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## weightlifter

Dude it was great to see a victory. Understand I mostly hang in CWI so I mostly see train wrecks. Yes worse than yours by miles.


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## Rollin

Hows the exercise going?


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> Another good day today. I've decided to let her initiate our next "relationship" conversation. Tonight I will keep it light as a feather.
> I've decided to keep up my efforts to learn how to love my wife. She's not there yet and I'll honor her feelings and continue to give her time to decide to make the effort and put in her side of the work to love me. I know that''s a decision she will have to come to completely on her own. The point is, I've made mine and I feel good about it. T5LL is really giving me more insight into love and marriage. I'm not afraid anymore and divorce is on the table.
> I've been internalizing my life ambitions and dreaming more about how to grow my company and create financial opportunities for myself and my family. I'm keeping it simple and letting my thoughts and plans grow with the company. I've been spending more time meditating on some of the principles suggested in NMMNG and I'm feeling positive and excited about my outlook on life and opportunities. One day at a time.
> I can only control my actions, I can handle whatever happens.


Sounds great. Are you still sticking to the August deadline you mentioned before?


----------



## bagdon

Rollin said:


> Hows the exercise going?


Nice and steady. I still have not started the HIT lifting yet... Had issues with the gym I was going to join. I do fifty push ups and fifty sit ups Monday, Wednesday & Friday mornings. Tuesday, Thursday & Saturday I run/walk two miles. Trying to keep my diet right; struggling with that a little. It's Funny, we're out at a child obesity fair right now and I just signed for a new fitness facility opening up in our area; I picked up some healthy eating brochures with proper portion charts and callory charts. Had a good run earlier this morning. The weight loss has slowed to a crawl; I'm stuck between 192Ibs & 195Ibs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Sounds great. Are you still sticking to the August deadline you mentioned before?


Yes, well, she already agreed to retrouvaille so I think I'm a little ahead of schedule. We've done a lot of talking and I'm getting a better feel of what's going on with her. She recently was prescribed antidepressant medicine so I'm keeping all of that in front of me as I work on myself and our marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rollin

bagdon said:


> Nice and steady. I still have not started the HIT lifting yet... Had issues with the gym I was going to join. I do fifty push ups and fifty sit ups Monday, Wednesday & Friday mornings. Tuesday, Thursday & Saturday I run/walk two miles. Trying to keep my diet right; struggling with that a little. It's Funny, we're out at a child obesity fair right now and I just signed for a new fitness facility opening up in our area; I picked up some healthy eating brochures with proper portion charts and callory charts. Had a good run earlier this morning. The weight loss has slowed to a crawl; I'm stuck between 192Ibs & 195Ibs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So you hit a plateau. Lots of ways to break through it, I think the fastest is by fasting for 16-24 hours. More is better.

But if you can't do that, switch up the cardio and get to HIT. Also just start lifting, that might switch things up. 

Google it, see what works for you.


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## bagdon

My TAM Friends,
We are doing so much better. Saturday was a full day together with the family; my wife represented the mental health booth at our local child obesity fair. Her zumba instructor was there sponsoring it. I even got to see her do some of her zumba workout routine at one portion of the event; got some video of it too! I joked around with her and friends that I was sweating just watching her workout...making a little light sexual innuendo toward my wife. We had a really good day. We also attended the wedding of one of the couples in our church-family that evening. My wife and I were like a team all day...I gave and felt loved by her all day; I believe we're slowly starting to really connect. 

It was a long eventful day. When we got home that evening everyone was in a good mood. As we were changing clothes and getting comfortable after the wedding I showed my wife some video I took of our son rock climbing from the obesity fair...she sat really close to me as I showed it to her. The kids decided on their own that they wanted to spend the night at their grandmother's house that night...no prodding from me at all. 

Weightlifter suggested I make having sex with my wife a pattern...I decided to do just that. I wasn't particularly horny that day but I wanted to keep my wife knowing that I am definitely into her and want her, so I gave her "the look" and told her, "Don't plan on sitting up too late watching your mystery videos tonight." She smiled. I am always showered and ready for bed before everyone else in the summer so I was in our bedroom relaxing and reading T5LL when the kids were gathering their belongings to sleep over at their grandmother's. My wife did not slow them from leaving either.
I guess it was around 10:30 or 11:00 when she came into the room; of course it was dark and I was almost asleep again...It was very different that night. When she got in the bed there was no hesitation from her at all; she was naked and ready...practically jumped on me. We "Made Love" that night. It was long and passionate; she didn't talk dirty but she made all the sounds I like; we would rest and talk and then go again; after the third round and a few leg cramps I was spent. I had cum hard all three times; I really enjoyed myself and she seemed eager to please. After the third time I asked her did she cum at all and she said no not this time. It was as if she was freely giving herself to me and that made me feel loved.

The next morning we were of course, tired but we went on to church with the kids. After church we went out to an early dinner at a restaurant in the city as we were planning on attending the ordination service of one of our close friends later that day. My wife kept telling me her legs were sore from the night before...

We had some time before the ordination ceremony so after dinner we drove around through our old neighborhood where we bought our second house and looked through one of the houses there for sale. I'm open and ready for our next home. She's very clear on what she's looking for in our next home...4 bedroom, 2.5 bath, open layout at least 2,000sqr feet with yard space. I'm looking at the best way to make it happen. ($$$)

I also received a follow up call from a Retrouvaille representative last night; he talked to both me and my wife and gave us some more details on the program. My wife even suggested we visit some of her relatives that live in the area as well during the weekend if there was time. One of the guidelines the rep told us was that neither of us could still be involved with a third party; wife joked about it when we hung up saying "Dog! I can't still see my man on the side?" I knew It was a joke but I still felt a little twinge in my chest as I chuckled with her...ha! ha!... I need help


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## anchorwatch

Stay the course...

Do not be tempted to think this is complete and you've done enough. 

It is not time to slack off..

Enjoy the rewards, your efforts bring.


----------



## doubletrouble

Hang in there, bag. I'm encouraged by your story and the things that have been happening. I just want to remind you where you've been and not to try to move it too fast. But you'd be a far better judge of that than I, as you're living it and I just check in from time to time. 

I'm really liking the way your story is going. Stay your course. Big hugs to you and yours.


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## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> Nice and steady. I still have not started the HIT lifting yet... Had issues with the gym I was going to join. I do fifty push ups and fifty sit ups Monday, Wednesday & Friday mornings. Tuesday, Thursday & Saturday I run/walk two miles. Trying to keep my diet right; struggling with that a little. It's Funny, we're out at a child obesity fair right now and I just signed for a new fitness facility opening up in our area; I picked up some healthy eating brochures with proper portion charts and callory charts. Had a good run earlier this morning. The weight loss has slowed to a crawl; I'm stuck between 192Ibs & 195Ibs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Most healthy eating brochures are BS. Seriously. If you're eating right, the weight loss will stall, but it should resume after a week or so.

What is your present diet?

As for the rest of it, keep feeding the line and then reel in. Reread MMSL. Keep letting her start the relationship discussion. Women hate it when men start it up, because they know it's unnatural for us to do that and we are just indirectly wheedling for sex. Remember The Sixteen Commandments.

Did you join the new gym? Is there a YMCA in your town?


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## weightlifter

NEW suggestion

Keep fvcking her

LOL


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## tom67

weightlifter said:


> NEW suggestion
> 
> Keep fvcking her
> 
> LOL


Thanks for the insight!:iagree::rofl::rofl:


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## weightlifter

Holy crap moment.

It just sank in that she SHOWED UP starkers! 

Congrats Bag!


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## Blonde

bagdon said:


> After the third time I asked her did she cum at all *and she said no not this time. *It was as if she was freely giving herself to me and that made me feel loved.


If I was you, I'd make that very rare. She needs to climax, "toe curling" and all that.

I figured you were scarce because the sex is back "on". 

Phileo: This love cherishes and has tender affection for the beloved but it expects a response. It is a love of relationship, comradeship, sharing, communication and friendship. While eros makes lovers phileo makes a close companionship that is all trusting. They share each other’s thoughts, feelings, attitudes, plans and dreams. They confide in each other the most intimate secrets, fears and needs that they would not share with another. *A marriage without phileo will be unsatisfactory no matter the passion in the bedroom.*​
Glad to hear that you are in the pipeline for Retrouvaille. You won't have time to visit the relatives during the program but perhaps Sunday afternoon/evening afterwards.


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## Blonde

Machiavelli said:


> Remember The Sixteen Commandments.


Hogwash except for 
IX Connect with her emotions (Retrouvaille will achieve this)
and 
XIV (paraphrased) the sex should be toe curling for her

The rest of those "commandments" promote an unfaithful heart/mind which is a horrid foundation for a marriage.


----------



## Machiavelli

Blonde said:


> Hogwash except for
> IX Connect with her emotions (Retrouvaille will achieve this)
> and
> XIV (paraphrased) the sex should be toe curling for her
> 
> The rest of those "commandments" promote an unfaithful heart/mind which is a horrid foundation for a marriage.


As the Apostle Paul might write (as in Philippians), you're full of σκύβαλα on this one. 

While the 16 commandments are primarily directed at a dating relationship, they have great validity in keeping the female interested in the male for the long term when properly moderated and applied. The slow drip of "beta-ization" of the husband is the root problem in this relationship. In a Biblical marriage, the woman's interest in her husband is fixated intensely due to the inherent competition from the other members of the husband's harem (wives and concubines, alike). Much as we see with the wives of the patriarchs or even reality shows on the discovery channel. Since the OP is in a monogamous marriage, both legally and practically, he needs to use other means to appeal to the wife's limbic needs and keep the attraction level high.


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## tom67

I'm afraid to ask what σκύβαλα means.


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## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> Most healthy eating brochures are BS. Seriously. If you're eating right, the weight loss will stall, but it should resume after a week or so.
> 
> What is your present diet?
> 
> As for the rest of it, keep feeding the line and then reel in. Reread MMSL. Keep letting her start the relationship discussion. Women hate it when men start it up, because they know it's unnatural for us to do that and we are just indirectly wheedling for sex. Remember The Sixteen Commandments.
> 
> Did you join the new gym? Is there a YMCA in your town?


I eat mostly baked chicken, turkey and sometimes fried fish with some kind of vegie, like broccoli, spinach etc. I eat 4 to 5 times a day. Oh, I also eat oatmeal in the mornings using 1% or zero fat milk with raisins and apples mixed in. Water consumption is steady; half the time I mix the low calorie powder with it. I need to purchase another container of whey protein supplement.
I have not joined a gym yet but a new facility is supposed to be opening up in my area real soon...I'll follow up on that.

I'll have to study up on "feeding the line". Oh, my brother has really been applying the MMSLP principles too even though he's not married. He follows this thread.

This morning my wife got up and walked with me...well she did her pace and I did mine. I walk and run alternating laps for two miles every other morning; takes me about 30 minutes to do. She seems to have caught a second wind on her writing and wanted to start a disciplined pattern following my example I think. She brings up "future" talk more often now too.


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## tom67

Keep up the workouts bagdon.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

I am happy to hear she has taken an interest in her husband. I am happy for you both. Keep up the good work.


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## bagdon

Blonde said:


> If I was you, I'd make that very rare. She needs to climax, "toe curling" and all that.
> 
> I figured you were scarce because the sex is back "on".


Hmmm....so you don't think she had a good time? I know she was wet but I could tell she didn't climax the whole night. I don't want to over think it but I'm sure I'll figure out how to make her toes curl.

This morning I seized an opportunity to kiss her on the way out the door. She wasn't in the bed and it wasn't a long kiss on the lips but she certainly smiled and received it. We're getting there.


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## Blondilocks

Your brother is following this thread. Is your wife also following it? Because if she doesn't know about it and your brother slips up and starts shooting his mouth off about your sex life/concerns/problems, you my friend, are going to be in a deep pile of doo-doo.


----------



## Nucking Futs

bagdon said:


> Hmmm....so you don't think she had a good time? I know she was wet but I could tell she didn't climax the whole night. I don't want to over think it but *I'm sure I'll figure out how to make her toes curl.*
> 
> This morning I seized an opportunity to kiss her on the way out the door. She wasn't in the bed and it wasn't a long kiss on the lips but she certainly smiled and received it. We're getting there.


This may be a radical concept but maybe you could try talking to her about it. Tell her you feel bad that she didn't finish and want to figure out together what you need to do. Tell her you're willing to do as much experimentation as needed to find some go to moves for her.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> Hmmm....so you don't think she had a good time? I know she was wet but I could tell she didn't climax the whole night. I don't want to over think it but I'm sure I'll figure out how to make her toes curl.
> 
> This morning I seized an opportunity to kiss her on the way out the door. She wasn't in the bed and it wasn't a long kiss on the lips but she certainly smiled and received it. We're getting there.


I would not read too much into the climax thing right now. Important thing is she wants to be with you. You mentioned meds earlier, well some meds can definitely interfere in the big 0 department. Look up the meds and check. And then talk about it with her.


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## bagdon

Blondilocks said:


> Your brother is following this thread. Is your wife also following it? Because if she doesn't know about it and your brother slips up and starts shooting his mouth off about your sex life/concerns/problems, you my friend, are going to be in a deep pile of doo-doo.


My brother and I have a unique relationship being that we are identical twins. I hate to say this but as hard as we've struggled to express our individualism as people we are indeed connected in a special way. I'm blessed to have someone that has literally been here on earth with me from day one.

We understand each other in a unique way that if you're not a twin you will not understand no matter what I said. He has been my "safe" person to confide in throughout this troubling time in my marriage; indeed our darkest hour.

I have no fear that he will accidentally or otherwise slip out anything I've said to him in confidence to anyone. However, it is only recently that I've shared this kind of detail with him about my relationship with my wife...sex and all. It's not something he would expect to hear from me. Again, this has been the darkest hour for me and my wife and at the same time an awakening for both me and my brother. I am loyal and dedicated to my wife. I love her very much. I think we (my wife and I) both seek that phileo connection. My brother know's that that is the proper connection for me to develop with my wife and he supports that whole heartedly.

When we first got married she expressed concern about the connection between my brother and I. In retrospect, I believe she may feel that that connection has hindered our connection...maybe it has. I guess my problem was expecting her to just connect to my expressions of love to her like I do with my brother. My brother and I don't have to talk to know that we love each other; in fact, we've gone months without a word or seeing each other and never missed a beat of knowing that we would be there for one another. 

So that being said, I am a little fearful of her finding out what TAM really is. As far as she knows, I have had this incredible epiphany through this miracle working counselor that I've been seeing who has basically been giving me great advice and knowledge. Most of what I've told her about my journey has really come from conversations with all of you...she wants to make sure that I keep seeing him.


----------



## Blondilocks

I have twin nephews so the closeness is not new to me. Sorry to say but I have never seen a marriage involving twins to be anything but rocky. My personal experience - not a universal statement. Your wife will never be #1 in your life - that position will always belong to your brother and she will feel it.

How would you feel if your wife was sharing the bedroom antics with her family? Betrayed? Besides, it's just plain creepy.


----------



## bagdon

Blondilocks said:


> I have twin nephews so the closeness is not new to me. Sorry to say but I have never seen a marriage involving twins to be anything but rocky. My personal experience - not a universal statement. Your wife will never be #1 in your life - that position will always belong to your brother and she will feel it.
> 
> How would you feel if your wife was sharing the bedroom antics with her family? Betrayed? Besides, it's just plain creepy.


Having twin nephews does not make you a twin. my marriage crisis has compelled me to explore and expose things in my life that I didn't normally do. I had to change myself and my routine before I experienced any kind of life breakthrough. Sharing "bedroom antics" with my twin is not the same as sharing it with my family; So I would not be surprised or feel "creepy" if my wife shared really personal things with her"twin". Was it a mistake? Maybe, but I've accepted the fact that I am perfectly imperfect .....as I said before you can't possibly understand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

Bag needs someone to confide in. Someone to release to. It is his twin brother. Oddly I heard that once from a fraternal twin... Fraternal and they were opposite sex nonetheless his sister was his go to person.

In my work in CWI Ive taken two calls from men near the edge of a breakdown due to their cheating wives. Names unreleased a friendly voice and not feeling so completely alone was JUST ENOUGH to let them keep it together.

Sometimes it just takes a friendly voice.

Hell Ive heard more details at work from others.


----------



## Blondilocks

I understand boundaries which you obviously don't. Carry on.

eta: this post was for bagdon


----------



## bagdon

Blondilocks said:


> I understand boundaries which you obviously don't. Carry on.
> 
> eta: this post was for bagdon


You don't get it...smh; I will certainly carry on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bagdon

Blondilocks said:


> I have twin nephews so the closeness is not new to me. Sorry to say but I have never seen a marriage involving twins to be anything but rocky. My personal experience - not a universal statement. * Your wife will never be #1 in your life - that position will always belong to your brother and she will feel it.*
> QUOTE]
> 
> I completely disagree.


----------



## Machiavelli

Blondilocks said:


> I understand boundaries which you obviously don't. Carry on.
> 
> eta: this post was for bagdon


While I agree with the general sentiment you expressed about Bagdon confiding in his brother, since he revealed his twinship in the subsequent post, that changes things big time. Twins are going to be twins. One needs to understand that general rules sometimes do not apply to specific situations. Those situations are called exceptions to the rule.


----------



## Blonde

Machiavelli said:


> While the 16 commandments are primarily directed at a dating relationship,


PUA crap. Thankfully my daughters avoid such men like the plague. 

They look for *character* in a man.



Machiavelli said:


> While the 16 commandments are primarily directed at a dating relationship, *they have great validity in keeping the female interested in the male for the long term when properly moderated and applied.* The slow drip of "beta-ization" of the husband is the root problem in this relationship. In a *Biblical marriage*, the woman's interest in her husband is fixated intensely due to the inherent competition from the other members of the husband's harem (wives and concubines, alike). Much as we see with the wives of the patriarchs or even reality shows on the discovery channel. Since the OP is in a monogamous marriage, both legally and practically, he needs to use other means to appeal to the wife's limbic needs and keep the attraction level high.


Ah, Solomon with his 700 wives and 300 concubines as role model for how to be a husband. :rofl:

The flirting, the harem stuff, the keeping her guessing, the having a couple extras out there on the hook...

Doesn't make me wet between the legs. It makes me angry and inclines me to find the best pitbull lawyer available to take him for everything I can get...

which is quite a lot after 30 years of marriage

He'll have enough for a modest lifestyle but his standard of living is going to take a HUGE hit.

Thankfully, I don't live in the era of Solomon when sex slavery and exploitation of women was legal. 

Biblically, plural wives were very unhappy. It created massive issues for them. Sarah and Leah come to mind. Solomon was a piece of work- 700 wives and 300 concubines  = Pi$$ poor role model for intimate relationships. 

Sorry about the tangent, bagdon. I sure hope you don't take the 16 commandments to heart! Blech!

But yeah, your wife needs to climax or you risk her feeling frustrated and used. Imagine you pumped and pumped and had to pull out at the end and STOP without finishing.  Maybe TMI and YMMV but if I think I'm going to take too long, oral is a quick solution that works for me.


----------



## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> I eat mostly baked chicken, turkey and sometimes fried fish


Fried in what? Batter?



bagdon said:


> with some kind of vegie, like broccoli, spinach etc.


Excellent. How many grams of carbohydrate total?




bagdon said:


> I eat 4 to 5 times a day.


Why?



bagdon said:


> Oh, I also eat oatmeal in the mornings using 1% or zero fat milk with raisins and apples mixed in.


Oatmeal is a grain, it stokes insulin release, which inhibits fat burning, as do raisins and apples. No-fat milk makes you fat, since they replace the fat (which does not make you fat) with more lactose (which does make you fat).



bagdon said:


> Water consumption is steady; half the time I mix the low calorie powder with it. I need to purchase another container of whey protein supplement.


What low calorie powder? As for your whey protein, make sure the carb count is less than 2 grams per serving. A lot of the commercial protein blends have an incredible amount of carbs in there specifically to stoke insulin release. Not what you want.



bagdon said:


> I have not joined a gym yet but a new facility is supposed to be opening up in my area real soon...I'll follow up on that.


Hopefully, sooner than later. The results you will get from HIT resistance training will be felt by your wife's libido.



bagdon said:


> This morning my wife got up and walked with me...well she did her pace and I did mine. I walk and run alternating laps for two miles every other morning; takes me about 30 minutes to do. She seems to have caught a second wind on her writing and wanted to start a disciplined pattern following my example I think. She brings up "future" talk more often now too.


This is good. very good. Just make sure she starts the conversation and you give her plenty of vent time before you respond with your thoughts (if you must). 

As for the running/walking, you would be much better served to do HIIT (the similarity to HIT is no accident). Sprint for 100 yards, walk for 2.5 minutes. Repeat 5X. Go home.


----------



## Blondilocks

Machiavelli said:


> While I agree with the general sentiment you expressed about Bagdon confiding in his brother, since he revealed his twinship in the subsequent post, that changes things big time. Twins are going to be twins. One needs to understand that general rules sometimes do not apply to specific situations. Those situations are called exceptions to the rule.


Thank you for enlightening me. Since the specialness of being a twin puts him in an exempt classification (essentially a get out of jail free card) his wife will most certainly understand when he tells her he's been sharing with his brother. It helps if all players agree to the exceptions to the rule before the game begins.

The OP wants to save his marriage. It would be sad if he sabotaged his own efforts.


----------



## bagdon

Blondilocks said:


> Thank you for enlightening me. Since the specialness of being a twin puts him in an exempt classification (essentially a get out of jail free card) his wife will most certainly understand when he tells her he's been sharing with his brother. It helps if all players agree to the exceptions to the rule before the game begins.
> 
> The OP wants to save his marriage. It would be sad if he sabotaged his own efforts.


Well, according to you, being a twin is more of a curse than an "exemption" as I will never be able to form any special bond over my brother with my wife.... That's your conclusion. That statement alone basically doomed my marriage in your opinion. I don't know how many married people, who happen to be twins, have been your experience but I can't buy into that kind of thinking. That's why I say you can't possibly understand.

Would it help if I deleted this thread and started all over? What's done is done. Read my "twin" explanation a little closer and I think you'll see that I do understand boundaries; I haven't been sharing every day of my marriage for 15 years now with my brother...

I don't know how my wife would react if she found out he was reading this. I do know my brother would do nothing to further jeopardize my relationship with my wife. I'm doing everything in my power to strengthen our bond.


----------



## Nucking Futs

bagdon said:


> Well, according to you, being a twin is more of a curse than an "exemption" as I will never be able to form any special bond over my brother with my wife.... That's your conclusion. That statement alone basically doomed my marriage in your opinion. I don't know how many married people, who happen to be twins, have been your experience but I can't buy into that kind of thinking. That's why I say you can't possibly understand.
> 
> *Would it help if I deleted this thread and started all over?* What's done is done. Read my "twin" explanation a little closer and I think you'll see that I do understand boundaries; I haven't been sharing every day of my marriage for 15 years now with my brother...
> 
> I don't know how my wife would react if she found out he was reading this. I do know my brother would do nothing to further jeopardize my relationship with my wife. I'm doing everything in my power to strengthen our bond.


Who do you want to help by deleting the thread? If the answer is not yourself then don't delete it since this thread only exists for your benefit.

Just ignore people you disagree with. You can't please everyone, and your goal should be to only please me and your wife. In that order.


----------



## Machiavelli

Blonde said:


> PUA crap. Thankfully my daughters avoid such men like the plague.


Is that what they tell you? Most women find the King David types to be irresistible.



Blonde said:


> They look for *character* in a man.


All men have character; some good character, some bad, others weak character and others strong. A man who learns the ropes on how to keep his wife from wandering or rebelling against his biblical position of spiritual leadership in the marriage is a man of excellent character.



Blonde said:


> Ah, Solomon with his 700 wives and 300 concubines as role model for how to be a husband. :rofl:


The Bible calls Solomon the wisest man to live up to his time. Clearly he was a busy man, but he was in violation of Deut. 17:17 which instructs that "the king must not take many wives for himself..." He probably would have been wiser to stop at seven or eight.

I was thinking more in terms of the marriages of the "Heroes of Faith" listed in Hebrews 11: Abraham ≥3 wives, Jacob ≥4 wives, Moses ≥2 wives, Gideon "many wives", David ≥28 wives, etc.



Blonde said:


> The flirting, the harem stuff, the keeping her guessing, the having a couple extras out there on the hook...
> 
> Doesn't make me wet between the legs.


So you _say_, as do many others. Most men, including Bagdon and myself, married under the marriage custom of pagan Rome (legal monogamy), as refined by the Puritans (legal and practical monogamy with a wife who is expected to deliver the goods - with passion). We don't have a problem keeping up our end of the bargain, but as it turns out it's the women who have a problem holding up their end. Game clues us in on how to help the wife _willingly_ deliver the goods.




Blonde said:


> It makes me angry and inclines me to find the best pitbull lawyer available to take him for everything I can get...which is quite a lot after 30 years of marriage
> 
> He'll have enough for a modest lifestyle but his standard of living is going to take a HUGE hit.


But of course. Naked hypergamy writ large. I commend you on your honesty.



Blonde said:


> Thankfully, I don't live in the era of Solomon when sex slavery and exploitation of women was legal.


LOL.



Blonde said:


> Biblically, plural wives were very unhappy. It created massive issues for them. Sarah and Leah come to mind.


The problem was Leah and Rachel's decision to participant in the defrauding of Jacob. After scamming their husband like that, trust was always going to be an issue in that marriage. Also note that the Law, which came later, banned a man having two sisters as wives as part of its biblical marriage rules. 



Blonde said:


> Solomon was a piece of work- 700 wives and 300 concubines  = Pi$$ poor role model for intimate relationships.


As we see in Deuteronomy, the concern was that such a king would be lead astray, as is demonstrated in I Kings in the case of Solomon. His example is only for fellow kings, however.



Blonde said:


> Sorry about the tangent, bagdon. I sure hope you don't take the 16 commandments to heart! Blech!


Why, you don't want his wife's heart to jump when he turns his smile upon her?




Blonde said:


> But yeah, your wife needs to climax or you risk her feeling frustrated and used. Imagine you pumped and pumped and had to pull out at the end and STOP without finishing.  Maybe TMI and YMMV but if I think I'm going to take too long, oral is a quick solution that works for me.


It depends on if it is the usual thing or not. Also, Bagdon, you need to be more assertive. Alpha/Sigmas don't wait around for the women to make the first move sexually, although they do let them signal interest. Do you know the subconscious (and not so subconscious) signs in general?


----------



## Machiavelli

Blondilocks said:


> Thank you for enlightening me. Since the specialness of being a twin puts him in an exempt classification (essentially a get out of jail free card) his wife will most certainly understand when he tells her he's been sharing with his brother. It helps if all players agree to the exceptions to the rule before the game begins.
> 
> The OP wants to save his marriage. It would be sad if he sabotaged his own efforts.


He's certainly not blabbing it to all his work friends and GNO friends the way most women do.


----------



## bagdon

Nucking Futs said:


> Who do you want to help by deleting the thread? If the answer is not yourself then don't delete it since this thread only exists for your benefit.
> 
> Just ignore people you disagree with. You can't please everyone, and your goal should be to only please me and your wife. In that order.


You're right...my goal is to save my marriage. Her comments sounded like a made a devastating blunder, then morphed into hopeless when I said I was a twin. I panicked at the thought of my wife turning away from me again. 
Right now things are really good and getting better daily. So...I will remain confident, patient, peaceful, calm and friendly as I continue my self improvement and learning to love my wife the way she needs to be loved. I'm working on a brighter future for our family.


----------



## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> Fried in what? Batter?
> yes
> 
> 
> Excellent. How many grams of carbohydrate total?
> 
> hmm... I don't know
> 
> 
> Why?
> 
> should I only eat three?
> 
> Oatmeal is a grain, it stokes insulin release, which inhibits fat burning, as do raisins and apples. No-fat milk makes you fat, since they replace the fat (which does not make you fat) with more lactose (which does make you fat).
> 
> Uh oh...
> 
> What low calorie powder? As for your whey protein, make sure the carb count is less than 2 grams per serving. A lot of the commercial protein blends have an incredible amount of carbs in there specifically to stoke insulin release. Not what you want.
> 
> Uh oh...
> 
> Hopefully, sooner than later. The results you will get from HIT resistance training will be felt by your wife's libido.
> 
> 
> 
> This is good. very good. Just make sure she starts the conversation and you give her plenty of vent time before you respond with your thoughts (if you must).
> 
> As for the running/walking, you would be much better served to do HIIT (the similarity to HIT is no accident). Sprint for 100 yards, walk for 2.5 minutes. Repeat 5X. Go home.


Well, I think I see why I'm stuck at 194Ibs. I gotta get this diet right.


----------



## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> Bagdon, you need to be more assertive. Alpha/Sigmas don't wait around for the women to make the first move sexually, although they do let them signal interest. Do you know the subconscious (and not so subconscious) signs in general?


I do not. Is it something mentioned in MMSLP?


----------



## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> Is that what they tell you? Most women find the King David types to be irresistible.
> 
> 
> 
> All men have character; some good character, some bad, others weak character and others strong. A man who learns the ropes on how to keep his wife from wandering or rebelling against his biblical position of spiritual leadership in the marriage is a man of excellent character.
> 
> 
> 
> The Bible calls Solomon the wisest man to live up to his time. Clearly he was a busy man, but he was in violation of Deut. 17:17 which instructs that "the king must not take many wives for himself..." He probably would have been wiser to stop at seven or eight.
> 
> I was thinking more in terms of the marriages of the "Heroes of Faith" listed in Hebrews 11: Abraham ≥3 wives, Jacob ≥4 wives, Moses ≥2 wives, Gideon "many wives", David ≥28 wives, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> So you _say_, as do many others. Most men, including Bagdon and myself, married under the marriage custom of pagan Rome (legal monogamy), as refined by the Puritans (legal and practical monogamy with a wife who is expected to deliver the goods - with passion). We don't have a problem keeping up our end of the bargain, but as it turns out it's the women who have a problem holding up their end. Game clues us in on how to help the wife _willingly_ deliver the goods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But of course. Naked hypergamy writ large. I commend you on your honesty.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem was Leah and Rachel's decision to participant in the defrauding of Jacob. After scamming their husband like that, trust was always going to be an issue in that marriage. Also note that the Law, which came later, banned a man having two sisters as wives as part of its biblical marriage rules.
> 
> 
> 
> As we see in Deuteronomy, the concern was that such a king would be lead astray, as is demonstrated in I Kings in the case of Solomon. His example is only for fellow kings, however.
> 
> 
> 
> Why, you don't want his wife's heart to jump when he turns his smile upon her?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It depends on if it is the usual thing or not. Also, Bagdon, you need to be more assertive. Alpha/Sigmas don't wait around for the women to make the first move sexually, although they do let them signal interest. Do you know the subconscious (and not so subconscious) signs in general?


I'm impressed... Makes me want to do a lot more Christian bible study.


----------



## anchorwatch

bagdon said:


> You're right...my goal is to save my marriage. Her comments sounded like a made a devastating blunder, then morphed into hopeless when I said I was a twin. I panicked at the thought of my wife turning away from me again.
> Right now things are really good and getting better daily. So...I will remain confident, patient, peaceful, calm and friendly as I continue my self improvement and learning to love my wife the way she needs to be loved. I'm working on a brighter future for our family.


Ask yourself has your counsel with your loving brother served your relationship well? How about those conversations with us on this site and others? Shall we stay silent and turn you away in your quest for knowledge? :scratchhead: 

You were lost when confronted with evidence that your wife was contemplating leaving the marriage. You were looking for guidance and answers, as any normal person would and should. Your intentions are true. Your actions are born out of love of family, in order to save the marriage. If you use the logic that you should keep marital strife secret and only shared with your spouse, where would you be? I say you would be in the same place that you're rescuing your wife from.


----------



## Wiserforit

Machiavelli said:


> As the Apostle Paul might write ...


No, as Marcion of Sinope might write while pretending to be the imaginary Paul, or any of the other later authors faking Pauline material, all of them ignorant Bronze age goat-herder era personalities. One of the interesting things about Christians who "study" the bible is how little they actually know about who wrote it, when, and why. 

Fiction can be useful, when you understand it as fiction. Blindly following it as if it were real isn't any different from putting your faith in comic book heros as models for living. 

These *sixteen commandments* - typical PUA bunk, where some element of truth is wrapped in billowing clouds of B.S.

For example, keeping two women "in the kitty" as a means of manipulating your target. Oh really? Manipulate three people all at the same time in the interest of retaining just one? Talk about malicious antisocial character and an enormous waste of time! No, I don't have to feign interest in three times as many women as I am interested in. 

This "Lord and King", as he signs his name, just took a kernel of truth about self-confidence and made a stupid "commandment" out of it that, if followed literally, is stupid on the face of it.


----------



## doubletrouble

I resist mixing Old Testament philosophy and tales with New Testament, since Christ changed the whole game. But there's a lot to learn about humans in that OT, I'll confess. 

Mach, not to threadjack but I see oatmeal as largely a complex carb, slow to digest, higher thermic effect, and therefore stabilizes insulin release. I've used it in many successful meals. And to me a complete meal needs complete proteins (as from animal proteins or a combo of veggie proteins), complex carbs and unsaturated fats. Oatmeal doesn't have the effect on insulin levels that, say, a "protein bar" might have. Ugh, great marketing, but for the most part they aren't great food. I also eat five or six meals a day, small but complete, to keep insulin levels from fluctuating. 

I agree with the nonfat food thing, as they HAVE to put SOMETHING in there to hold things together ... sugar comes to mind. Another calculation that's fun to make is the percentage of calories from fat. Look at a label (milk is a good example, but I have none of these in front of me at the moment) and see that in 1% milk, nearly 50% of the total calories are fat. How low fat is that food, really? Now, you NEED fat in your diet, but how much you need depends on your weight loss/fitness goals. I used about a 40/40/20 ratio (variable) to lose 33% of my total weight, gain I forget how much lean body mass, and get to about 10% body fat (we talked about this previously). 

Bagdon, since the body doesn't store proteins, for the most part, you need constant intake of proteins to rebuild cells. Carbs can be stored relatively easy, as can fat. Carbs are the "premium fuel" of the body, and are what will be burned first from your idgestive system when you exercise. (Glycogen also gets used up but that's a more in-depth subject.) Simple carbs have a low thermic effect while the energy it takes to digest complex carbs and protein means a percentage of the calories consumed in the food is expended just digesting the stuff. That's what thermic effect is, essentially the amount of energy it takes for your body to digest foods.

Anyway, there's a lot to all this nutrition. Study it well, learn it for YOUR body type, and compare notes with people who do it for a living (which I don't; I was my own science project). And your T levels will go up, bad cholesterol will go down, and you will feel GREAT. 

And you should feel pretty good. Your life is starting to turn around. Cheers.


----------



## bagdon

anchorwatch said:


> Ask yourself has your counsel with your loving brother served your relationship well? How about those conversations with us on this site and others? Shall we stay silent and turn you away in your quest for knowledge? :scratchhead:
> 
> You were lost when confronted with evidence that your wife was contemplating leaving the marriage. You were looking for guidance and answers, as any normal person would and should. Your intentions are true. Your actions are born out of love of family, in order to save the marriage. If you use the logic that you should keep marital strife secret and only shared with your spouse, where would you be? I say you would be in the same place that you're rescuing your wife from.


I am at peace once again.... Thank you sir.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wiserforit

So, *bagdon*, you seemed taken by PUA propaganda, interwoven with some biblical tales.

Almost everywhere you look in that sixteen commandments is rubbish, but let's take this one for example, on never using the words "I'm Sorry":



> if you have done something wrong, you should acknowledge your guilt in a glancing way without resorting to the actual words “I’m sorry.” Pull the Bill Clinton maneuver and say “Mistakes were made” or tell her you “feel bad” about what you did. You are granted two freebie “I’m sorry”s for the life of your relationship; use them wisely.


I can't think of worse advice to be giving. A person who cannot say "I'm Sorry" is an antisocial prick. We should acknowledge exactly what we did, and validate the feelings of the person we upset. Whether we want in their pants or not. 

But that's the defining stamp of PUA propaganda. If you removed the antisocial personality disorder features, it is no longer PUA literature. Neg theory, relentless deception, people are just your pawns, etc. ad nauseum. 

No big deal. Slow work day.

Edit. Oh here's more...



> Never compliment a girl on her looks, especially not a girl you aren’t ****ing.


Gad, what an insecure, egotistical and plainly stupid thing to make a _commandment_ out of. Is he 12 years old? This stuff obviously panders to people with some kind of chip on their shoulder. 




> women ask questions they don’t really want direct answers to. Woe be the man who plays it straight — his fate is the suffering of the beta. Evade, tease, obfuscate. She thrives when she has to imagine what you’re thinking about her, and withers when she knows exactly how you feel.


Standard PUA modus operandi: be deceptive. Conceal who you are. In the name of honesty, and "giving her what she wants" of course.


Oh my God, he can't be serious:



> Give your woman 2/3 of everything she gives you. For every three calls or texts, give her two back. Three declarations of love earn two in return. Three gifts; two nights out.


He calls this the "Golden Ratio". How absurd. This is a commandment? Set out to be a net loss to women in our lives? Sorry, can't call you back yet. I need you to call a second time. Then I can tell you where the keys to your car are. 

I'm starting to think the guy who wrote this tried to think of all the things he would say to a bitter, vindictive, antisocial creep: his "get even with pretty women" screed. The author doesn't really believe it of course and is laughing while writing it, wondering if he's gone too far with pretentious terminology and plainly stupid rules.


----------



## Machiavelli

Wiserforit said:


> No, as Marcion of Sinope might write while pretending to be the imaginary Paul, or any of the other later authors faking Pauline material, all of them ignorant Bronze age goat-herder era personalities. One of the interesting things about Christians who "study" the bible is how little they actually know about who wrote it, when, and why.


The Hell you say. I'm fully aware of the concept of Biblical pseudonymity and probably was when you were just a gleam in your daddy's eye. Tell me, wise one, which New Testament books exactly did Marcion write? It was all four gospels and the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, wasn't it? 



Wiserforit said:


> Fiction can be useful, when you understand it as fiction. Blindly following it as if it were real isn't any different from putting your faith in comic book heros as models for living.


It's all just a program run on the matrix anyway, so what does it matter? You do your thing and I'll do mine. Since the OP has stated he, and allegedly his wife, lives his life according to a particular code, I'm providing him with information appropriate to his circumstances.



Wiserforit said:


> These *sixteen commandments* - typical PUA bunk, where some element of truth is wrapped in billowing clouds of B.S.
> 
> For example, keeping two women "in the kitty" as a means of manipulating your target. Oh really? Manipulate three people all at the same time in the interest of retaining just one? Talk about malicious antisocial character and an enormous waste of time! No, I don't have to feign interest in three times as many women as I am interested in.


I don't care that you have no interest in women, but if you're old enough to get on here and type, you should have noticed a few patterns in female behavior at this point in your life and realized that their behavior just doesn't seem to deliver on a lot of the claims. And a single guy can be up front about having more than one woman, and soon we'll have legal polygamy here in the States and married guys can have the same advantages. Women like relationship drama and polygyny (legal or informal) gives them that in spades. What's not to like?



Wiserforit said:


> This "Lord and King", as he signs his name, just took a kernel of truth about self-confidence and made a stupid "commandment" out of it that, if followed literally, is stupid on the face of it.


Try and grow a sense of humor. It will serve you well.


----------



## tom67

Like the song "It's Mach the knife."


----------



## Machiavelli

doubletrouble said:


> I resist mixing Old Testament philosophy and tales with New Testament, since Christ changed the whole game. But there's a lot to learn about humans in that OT, I'll confess.


I would say fulfilled the whole game. And yeah, the full nature of humanity of on display in the OT.



doubletrouble said:


> Mach, not to threadjack but I see oatmeal as largely a complex carb, slow to digest, higher thermic effect, and therefore stabilizes insulin release.


Yes, oats are much better than the other grains in just about any area you want to look into, but leptin may be an issue.

And there are diets that suggest more meals to keep insulin from spiking. These are all good points. I mention this stuff because there are a lot of diets and they all work (with more or less pain and hunger) but ONLY if you pick one and stick to it. I'm curious about which program Bagdon is using or if he's just winging it based on some advertising. 

Typically, more carbs = more hunger when losing weight, but there are some great high carb diets for weight loss out there. I've got one in particular that I've used on a lot of people.


----------



## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> I would say fulfilled the whole game. And yeah, the full nature of humanity of on display in the OT.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, oats are much better than the other grains in just about any area you want to look into, but leptin may be an issue.
> 
> And there are diets that suggest more meals to keep insulin from spiking. These are all good points. I mention this stuff because there are a lot of diets and they all work (with more or less pain and hunger) but ONLY if you pick one and stick to it. I'm curious about which program Bagdon is using or if he's just winging it based on some advertising.
> 
> Typically, more carbs = more hunger when losing weight, but there are some great high carb diets for weight loss out there. I've got one in particular that I've used on a lot of people.


I think I'm winging it based on advertising. Given what you know about my physical traits and progress so far, what diet plan would you recommend?


----------



## bagdon

Wiserforit said:


> So, *bagdon*, you seemed taken by PUA propaganda, interwoven with some biblical tales.
> 
> Almost everywhere you look in that sixteen commandments is rubbish, but let's take this one for example, on never using the words "I'm Sorry":
> 
> 
> 
> I can't think of worse advice to be giving. A person who cannot say "I'm Sorry" is an antisocial prick. We should acknowledge exactly what we did, and validate the feelings of the person we upset. Whether we want in their pants or not.
> 
> But that's the defining stamp of PUA propaganda. If you removed the antisocial personality disorder features, it is no longer PUA literature. Neg theory, relentless deception, people are just your pawns, etc. ad nauseum.
> 
> No big deal. Slow work day.
> 
> Edit. Oh here's more...
> 
> 
> 
> Gad, what an insecure, egotistical and plainly stupid thing to make a _commandment_ out of. Is he 12 years old? This stuff obviously panders to people with some kind of chip on their shoulder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Standard PUA modus operandi: be deceptive. Conceal who you are. In the name of honesty, and "giving her what she wants" of course.
> 
> 
> Oh my God, he can't be serious:
> 
> 
> 
> He calls this the "Golden Ratio". How absurd. This is a commandment? Set out to be a net loss to women in our lives? Sorry, can't call you back yet. I need you to call a second time. Then I can tell you where the keys to your car are.
> 
> I'm starting to think the guy who wrote this tried to think of all the things he would say to a bitter, vindictive, antisocial creep: his "get even with pretty women" screed. The author doesn't really believe it of course and is laughing while writing it, wondering if he's gone too far with pretentious terminology and plainly stupid rules.


I'm not familiar with "PUA" propaganda but I think Mach has a relatively good pulse of my character. I'm from the Christian faith based world. I think he knows some of his comments and recommendations may be a little edgy and over the top for me but I like hearing new perspectives...I think he knows I'm open and I'll choose what's best for me. I may "sample" some ideas just to see what happens but I have a well defined core belief system.

I am impressed with his apparent in depth study of Christian biblical history. I like that kind of stuff and it sparked my interest in studying it more myself to explore his findings.


----------



## bagdon

Another good day. I called to check on my wife yesterday just to see how she was doing....I just felt like doing that. She called me back and told me she didn't pick up the first two times I called because she was in the middle of a phone interview regarding some legal documentation work she could possibly get. She sounded excited. She's chatty and conversational with me now.

Wednesday nights we attend church bible study; I've started dedicating my time and expertise with audio recording and sound reinforcement to the church so I've been showing up consistently sense my marriage has taken a positive turn. My wife actually made her way to me last night and gave me a heart felt hug...I included a little smooch at the end of the hug which she seemed to enthusiastically receive.

Later that night when we got home she shared with me a card that she bought for herself dated May 19, 2013. (3 days after our 15th anniversary; back in the time she had no passion for me and was in a state of WAW fog; of course, she doesn't know I know this) The card was a house warming card; it said something like I hope your new home brings you cheer and good feelings. Folded inside was three pages of photos of a 6 bedroom, 5 bath, 3200 sqr ft home on 3 acres. It's the same home we've been praying about for the past two weeks. She showed me the card and said we can use this as a testimony of our faith; she started saying she hopes God will bless us with that home or something similar and I said bless us with that house or better; nothing less.I can tell she's gauging my commitment to a move and a new home by the way she looks at me when we talk about that kind of stuff; seems she's looking to feel secure in me, my leadership and if I really want it too.

I pray with my family every night before I go to bed now. I can tell, they all like it when I pray with them. Babygirl just stares and smiles with her hands clasped next to her face when she sees me and her mother hug after our prayer. After hugging her mother I went to hug Babygirl; as we hugged she said "I really love to see you guys hug and kiss daddy...really I do."

My wife spooned me last night.


----------



## chazmataz3

My god is an awesome god!!!!!!


----------



## Blonde

Machiavelli said:


> Is
> Why, you don't want his wife's heart to jump when he turns his smile upon her?


 I want to avoid his wife's stomach turning when he turns his gaze upon her (after it's been on his harem).

And I want to avoid her using her law degree to divorce a man who doesn't keep vows and promises made in front of God. *"forsaking all others, keeping only unto her for as long as you both shall live?"*

Machiavelli, I think you misunderstand Biblical times. Women were not hot for David. The women *had no choice.*. Bathsheeba was a married woman who was "appropriated" when she was innocently taking a bath in the only place one could take a bath. David made her pregnant and then murdered her husband and could not get Uriah to engage in dereliction of his military duty to sleep with her and pawn off the kid as Uriah's. God was very VERY unhappy with David for following his little head around and stealing a woman from a good monogamous man of character. 

Plural wives were unhappy wives, with strife in the households (Here are links to the misery of Sarah and Leah, for example) and extremely screwed up children (your hero David's children practiced incest with their father's concubines (sex slaves) in public- on a rooftop, attempted to murder their father, raped their sisters, etc etc etc.... It's all in your Bible, read it for yourself. David is NOT a good role model for Christian marriage!)

Bagdon if your wife ever reads this thread, it will impress her if you would stand up to the BS Mach peddles. (He may be a GREAT personal trainer but the 16 commandments he promotes is mainly marriage killing BS)

/tangent

*About your wife's O's: * Could you find and appropriate and safe time to ask her if she ever MB'ed? Tell her you want to learn more about pleasuring her. Ask her how long it takes for her to O with MB (probably 5 or 10 minutes max). Then ask her to either describe or demonstrate how she does it. This would show you how to work her erogenous zones in a way which gives her maximum pleasure. 

Caveat- sex is emotional for women and she may have hard time focussing" if she is stressed or upset about something but in the present climate you have described, this does not seem to be an issue.


----------



## Blonde

Machiavelli said:


> But of course. Naked hypergamy writ large. I commend you on your honesty.




I married an equal. We both have advanced degrees. And then I sacrificed my earning potential to birth and raise his 8 children, even homeschooled for 5 years- the adults are professionals MD, PA, Harvard grad. And a SAHD/building contractor married to a PA. No one is an addict. No one got pregnant out of wedlock. They are all productive tax-paying citizens.

And I am an extremely prudent wife. My husband would not have any net worth if he had married a spender as his avg income has been maybe 50K over the 30 years married. 

You can call that hypergamy. I call it, I worked my butt off to build your kingdom and I'm taking half of everything, plus child support as we still have minors and he is on the road too much for joint custody. 

Sorry for the derail, Bagdon.

I'll bite my fingers now.


----------



## Blonde

bagdon said:


> Would it help if I deleted this thread and started all over? What's done is done. Read my "twin" explanation a little closer and I think you'll see that I do understand boundaries; I haven't been sharing every day of my marriage for 15 years now with my brother...
> 
> I don't know how my wife would react if she found out he was reading this. I do know my brother would do nothing to further jeopardize my relationship with my wife. I'm doing everything in my power to strengthen our bond.


IMO, you have spoken of your wife respectfully and tenderly and that should make your brother proud of your good character and I think your wife would be too (though she might blush- but this is anonymous)

Please don't delete but if you feel like you need more privacy I think you may be able to request the thread be moved to the private section. Your brother would have to get on here and post enough times to get access.


----------



## bagdon

Blonde said:


> IMO, you have spoken of your wife respectfully and tenderly and that should make your brother proud of your good character and I think your wife would be too (though she might blush- but this is anonymous)
> 
> Please don't delete but if you feel like you need more privacy I think you may be able to request the thread be moved to the private section. Your brother would have to get on here and post enough times to get access.


I don't think I'll delete it.


----------



## bagdon

Blonde said:


> I married an equal. We both have advanced degrees. And then I sacrificed my earning potential to birth and raise his 8 children, even homeschooled for 5 years- the adults are professionals MD, PA, Harvard grad. And a SAHD/building contractor married to a PA. No one is an addict. No one got pregnant out of wedlock. They are all productive tax-paying citizens.
> 
> And I am an extremely prudent wife. My husband would not have any net worth if he had married a spender as his avg income has been maybe 50K over the 30 years married.
> 
> You can call that hypergamy. I call it, I worked my butt off to build your kingdom and I'm taking half of everything, plus child support as we still have minors and he is on the road too much for joint custody.
> 
> Sorry for the derail, Bagdon.
> 
> I'll bite my fingers now.


Am I reading this right, your marriage is ending? So sorry; Hope I'm wrong.


----------



## bagdon

Blonde said:


> I want to avoid his wife's stomach turning when he turns his gaze upon her (after it's been on his harem).
> 
> And I want to avoid her using her law degree to divorce a man who doesn't keep vows and promises made in front of God. *"forsaking all others, keeping only unto her for as long as you both shall live?"*
> 
> Machiavelli, I think you misunderstand Biblical times. Women were not hot for David. The women *had no choice.*. Bathsheeba was a married woman who was "appropriated" when she was innocently taking a bath in the only place one could take a bath. David made her pregnant and then murdered her husband and could not get Uriah to engage in dereliction of his military duty to sleep with her and pawn off the kid as Uriah's. God was very VERY unhappy with David for following his little head around and stealing a woman from a good monogamous man of character.
> 
> Plural wives were unhappy wives, with strife in the households (Here are links to the misery of Sarah and Leah, for example) and extremely screwed up children (your hero David's children practiced incest with their father's concubines (sex slaves) in public- on a rooftop, attempted to murder their father, raped their sisters, etc etc etc.... It's all in your Bible, read it for yourself. David is NOT a good role model for Christian marriage!)
> 
> Bagdon if your wife ever reads this thread, it will impress her if you would stand up to the BS Mach peddles. (He may be a GREAT personal trainer but the 16 commandments he promotes is mainly marriage killing BS)
> 
> /tangent
> 
> *About your wife's O's: * Could you find and appropriate and safe time to ask her if she ever MB'ed? Tell her you want to learn more about pleasuring her. Ask her how long it takes for her to O with MB (probably 5 or 10 minutes max). Then ask her to either describe or demonstrate how she does it. This would show you how to work her erogenous zones in a way which gives her maximum pleasure.
> 
> Caveat- sex is emotional for women and she may have hard time focussing" if she is stressed or upset about something but in the present climate you have described, this does not seem to be an issue.


I'm pretty sure she's MB'ed; Probably a lot between Sept and July if I interpreted her diary right...(horny fantasies about other men etc...) BTW during our recent conversations she's assured me that there has been no EA or PA.

Man, I feel so far behind on doing my part in making our marriage satisfying and successful; I haven't yet learned how my wife's body works to please her. I'm up for it though...Thanks!


----------



## Blonde

bagdon said:


> Am I reading this right, your marriage is ending? So sorry; Hope I'm wrong.


I'm on the fence. Had appt with pitbull lawyer (H didn't know about it) but cancelled it when he promised to make IC appt. Then he ignored his promise for two weeks and my finger was positively itching to dial her up and pull the trigger...

But he made the appt. We'll see if a year of IC with a specialist in sexual addiction can help him. I'm staying firmly on the fence until he gets deliverance from Machiavellian tendencies. 

Bye bye "player" or bye bye marriage *and money*.


----------



## hookares

Bye bye "player" or bye bye marriage and money.
Right or wrong, it's always about the MONEY with wives who intend to divorce. If Blonde can manage to clean him out and leave him penniless, she needs to make sure the next sucker doesn't do the same to her.


----------



## Catherine602

hookares said:


> Bye bye "player" or bye bye marriage and money.
> Right or wrong, it's always about the MONEY with wives who intend to divorce. If Blonde can manage to clean him out and leave him penniless, she needs to make sure the next sucker doesn't do the same to her.


Right or wrong, the reason that some wives intend to divorce is the husbands sex addiction. Hope Blonde picks better next time. 

FIFY
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wiserforit

Machiavelli said:


> The Hell you say. I'm fully aware of the concept of Biblical pseudonymity and probably was when you were just a gleam in your daddy's eye. Tell me, wise one, which New Testament books exactly did Marcion write? It was all four gospels and the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, wasn't it?


Not even close. Obviously you don't know the history.

Scholarship is not about faith and putting the blinders on to all of the real history that was extensively documented by numerous historians of the time. One of the best is going to be Josephus, the commanding general of the Jewish forces against the Romans during the time Jesus allegedly lived. He wrote two books you've probably never heard of. Jewish Wars and History of the Jews. Numerous persons named Jesus are written of, none of them the fairy tale Jesus of the Bible. 

My favorite Jesus is the one killed by a Roman siege engine in 70 CE in the Battle of Jerusalem. He was a nutball that was indeed tortured by Pontius Pilate but let go as a harmless crank running around yelling "Woe is Israel"! 

There is zero historical confirmation of your Jesus, other than what Christians themselves forged in later centuries, and they are so badly done it's pretty funny. 



> It's all just a program run on the matrix anyway, so what does it matter?


What matters is you representing how to treat women with an amalgm of make-believe stories and some antisocial internet prick, calling himself "Lord and King" 

Were I to write anything similar, at the top of the list would be communication. He doesn't even have it on his list, since his whole game is the opposite: being deceptive with people. 



> Women like relationship drama and polygyny (legal or informal) gives them that in spades. What's not to like?


 This is one of those examples where the antisocial prick claims that women want the exact opposite of what they tell us. No, really - we want you to cheat on us and show us no respect by using other women as objects to make us jealous. 

How much respect does that show the other women you are using as tools? None. Sure, this may appeal to women with low self esteem who grew up in abusive households.




> Try and grow a sense of humor. It will serve you well.


Standard personal attack used by manipulative people. When their nasty antisocial conduct is called into question then they attack you for having no "sense of humor".

Except you are the one who holds up this manipulative jerk as a person we should model ourselves after. I highly doubt he follows his own advice. It looks to me like he's just marketing what he knows will sell to bitter, vindictive men having antisocial tendencies.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> I'm pretty sure she's MB'ed; Probably a lot between Sept and July if I interpreted her diary right...(horny fantasies about other men etc...) BTW during our recent conversations she's assured me that there has been no EA or PA.
> 
> Man, I feel so far behind on doing my part in making our marriage satisfying and successful; I haven't yet learned how my wife's body works to please her. I'm up for it though...Thanks!


Bagdon, sounds great that you are having frank discussions with your wife. From when you started this thread so so much progress has been made. Keep it up. But I must say, do you really believe she is going to admit to you an EA or PA if she had one? I seriously doubt it. I hate to sat this but take that with a grain of salt. Without proof on your side though no use dwelling on it. That will drive you crazy. 

Are you telling us after all these years of marriage you have not or are not sure if you ever pleasured your wife towards an orgasm? I really find that hard to believe. 

Have you looked at the meds she is taking? As I said before one unfortunate rather common side affects of certain anti-depressants is interfering with orgasms. For some woman on ADs orgasms can be "muted" or "less intense" or very difficult or even impossible to achieve. These are not a insurmountable issues thou. I had an exgf who had this very issue with Paxil. She solved it with the Rabbit.


----------



## Thound

hookares said:


> Bye bye "player" or bye bye marriage and money.
> Right or wrong, it's always about the MONEY with wives who intend to divorce. If Blonde can manage to clean him out and leave him penniless, she needs to make sure the next sucker doesn't do the same to her.


Idk. Blondie has given her husband way more chances than he deserves. Most women wouldnt have put up with near the same amount as Blondie. She loves and cares about her family, and she is going to make sure they are provided for. Her husband proceeds at his own folly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

hookares said:


> Bye bye "player" or bye bye marriage and money.
> Right or wrong, it's always about the MONEY with wives who intend to divorce. If Blonde can manage to clean him out and leave him penniless, she needs to make sure the next sucker doesn't do the same to her.


^^Deflection.

It's about the money for H. Never has been about the money for me or I wouldn't be with him. On his income we qualified for free and reduced lunches and medicaid for 20 years or more out of the 30. I desire companionship and intimacy- *friends* with benefits, big emphasis on *friends*. I won't make a list, but he would not have anything to show for himself if he was married to a woman who spent on new cars and clothes from the mall. I pinch every penny till it screams and spend on things that *last *: real estate and sweat equity- so we own three houses outright. Bought a foreclosure in 2008 for $25K which brings in $975/mo in rent.  That was among MY contributions to his kingdom. 

And I'll be taking my half guilt free and making it work for me so I have more and more to show for myself and an inheritance for my children and my children's children while he *pi$$es away his half chasing his c0ck.*

Only when *what he values* is threatened does he stand up and takes notice and makes the appt with the IC to get at the bottom of what drives his self destructive and marriage killing behavior. He didn't care when the marriage and family life were threatened. But when I did some research and found out what I am entitled to after 30 years of marriage and he found out he's going to have to live on half his income after paying child support and maintenance, by golly, IC it is- *let's save my money!!!!*- ah errr, and the marriage...

And now back to our regularly scheduled program....

*Bagdon, man of 
character, faithfulness, and integrity!
* :smthumbup:


----------



## Blonde

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Are you telling us after all these years of marriage you have not or are not sure if you ever pleasured your wife towards an orgasm? I really find that hard to believe.




Bagdon knows when she climaxes and has given her the pleasure many times I am sure:



bagdon said:


> Hmmm....so you don't think she had a good time? I know she was wet* but I could tell she didn't climax* the whole night. I don't want to over think it but I'm sure I'll figure out how to make her toes curl.


It should happen consistently (which is the one of Mach's 16 commandments ITA). The wife should get just as much pleasure as the husband and if she isn't, the husband needs to study and learn until she is: practice, practice, practice!


----------



## Blonde

Nurse hat on.

As for AD's there is one that boosts libido, AND for your wife a big PLUS of this one is that it does not tend to have the weight gain side effect that many AD's have:

There is some evidence that the antidepressant drug, Wellbutrin, may be able to boost women's libido. Revving Up Women's Sex Drive​


----------



## Blonde

You can approach the ad issue out of your deep concern for her, that she be enjoying your marital physical intimacy as much as you do. That the last thing you want is for her to feel frustrated, you want her to be as satisfied as you are. You looked up and found 

“Wellbutrin has been shown to have no sexual side effects due to its mechanism of action,” Collom said. In fact, “Wellbutrin can actually increase one’s sex drive.”

Read more: Antidepressant Killing Your Libido? Not for Long | Fox News​


----------



## DTO

Thumper said:


> Man, im sorry your here, that's like a hot dagger to the heart.
> 
> First you need to find out what your doing, in her eyes, wrong. And get it addressed ASAP, she's disconnected from the marriage.
> 
> theres a couple of books you can read, 2 different approaches
> 
> 1st is: Divorce Busting: A Step-By-Step Approach to Making Your Marriage Loving Again by Michele Weiner-Davis | Barnes & Noble
> 
> or you can try the opposite approach:Winning Your Wife Back Before It's Too Late: Whether She's Left Physically or Emotionally, All that Matters is? by Gary Smalley | 9781418578442 | NOOK Book (eBook) | Barnes & Noble
> 
> I'm not gonna lie, you have a LOT of work ahead of you. first you need to stay calm, and don't let her know anything at all. second you need to be REALLY patient. This is gonna take some time if theres a chance to fix it.
> 
> Do you help around the house (dishes, laundry, kids, cooking), do you think she thinks you help her enough, not what you think but what she thinks.
> 
> Has she been giving you warning signs? Are you attentive to her? Take her out, take her to the movies, dancing, a walk around the block? What are you doing with her to make her feel wanted.
> 
> Are you overweight, high maintenance, negative, complaining a lot, lazy, judgemental, verbally abusive, physically abusive?
> 
> Be honest in your own assessment as that will be the only things you can do to fix your half of the situation.
> 
> If she talks to you, LISTEN to what she has to say, don't judge, devalue, rug sweep, or heck even talk much, just let her vent, she will tell you whats wrong if your listening to her.
> 
> Good luck, feel free to come back for tips/advice or if you just need to vent (don't vent on her). STAY strong, under control, and don't force issues right now. You might only get one chance to save your marriage.


Oh man, this is some poor advice.

To the OP: your goal should not be to save your marriage at all costs. If you will do that, you will not be a husband in a thriving marriage. You will be a serf, toiling at the pleasure of your wife.

You do need to assess your own behavior and own where you screwed up. Also, you need to acknowledge what you must get from the relationship and how far you are going to go to get it. Would you forego all sex to stay in your marriage? How about if your wife asked you to pick up two jobs so that she did not have to work? That's all stuff you need to figure out.

Only then should you have a talk with your wife. State upfront you know she's not happy and that you are surprised because you put much effort into supporting the relationship. Listen to what she has to say. Assess whether the faults she finds are something you can / are willing to change. Then respond honestly.

If I were you. I would be open to change any negative traits. But I would not subordinate myself to her. If, for instance, the chores are split fairly and she says she needs more help around the house, ask her what else can you stop doing for her to give her the household help she needs. If she says she wants more financial security, ask her what spending habits of hers she is willing to curtail to make that happen.

If she tries to put 100% responsibility for something on you, or she tries to hold you to a higher standard than yourself (like you have to bring home a good salary but she doesn't, or you have to lose weight and she's got a big gut on her too), I would politely decline and, if necessary, just walk away from it.


----------



## DTO

Blonde said:


> I'm on the fence. Had appt with pitbull lawyer (H didn't know about it) but cancelled it when he promised to make IC appt. Then he ignored his promise for two weeks and my finger was positively itching to dial her up and pull the trigger...
> 
> But he made the appt. We'll see if a year of IC with a specialist in sexual addiction can help him. I'm staying firmly on the fence until he gets deliverance from Machiavellian tendencies.
> 
> Bye bye "player" or bye bye marriage *and money*.


I know this is a threadjack, but I would strongly suggest you avoid the "pit bull" and get one who is courteous yet tenacious in representing your interests. Yes, they do exist - I had two during my divorce.

My ex hired just such a pitbull, and in the end it did not benefit her much if at all; certainly it did not pay off enough to justify his premium fees (25% more expensive than the next most expensive lawyers in the area). I still got half the assets (that she tried to lie about) and the much better end of the custody issues (she has to provide insurance, my kid goes to school in my area and my ex has to transport, and other areas). Moreover, this lawyer's rep preceded him in a negative manner.

You said yourself that the law specifies to what you are entitled. Do you really need a pit bull to push for that? Even if he or she is that good, is your case so extraordinary as to require that kind of keen expertise? You wouldn't want to pay Johnny Cochran to fight a parking ticket, ya know. 

Keep in mind that a decent lawyer knows which things are worth fighting over and which are not, and will tell you so (again I know this from experience). And, any lawyer who is talking you up and tearing him down is doing so by the hour.

If you have questions, please feel free to PM me.


----------



## Blonde

Thx DTO. Good advice. pm'ed you. The pitbull is a female lawyer and I think in my good ole boy ******* republican county a male atty defending the poor defenseless betrayed damsel in distress will play better.  

JFTR, legal steps are on hold for now till I can discern if IC is helping H pry head out of butt.

/hijack


----------



## Machiavelli

Bagdon, check out the Slow Carb Diet from Tim Ferriss, author of "4 Hour Body." This is an excellent way to get down to a very low body fat without any hunger pangs. It does take a little discipline, but the results are excellent for most people. 

There are also good links at the bottom of the Wikipedia entry.


----------



## bagdon

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Bagdon, sounds great that you are having frank discussions with your wife. From when you started this thread so so much progress has been made. Keep it up. But I must say, do you really believe she is going to admit to you an EA or PA if she had one? I seriously doubt it. I hate to sat this but take that with a grain of salt. Without proof on your side though no use dwelling on it. That will drive you crazy.
> 
> Are you telling us after all these years of marriage you have not or are not sure if you ever pleasured your wife towards an orgasm? I really find that hard to believe.
> 
> Have you looked at the meds she is taking? As I said before one unfortunate rather common side affects of certain anti-depressants is interfering with orgasms. For some woman on ADs orgasms can be "muted" or "less intense" or very difficult or even impossible to achieve. These are not a insurmountable issues thou. I had an exgf who had this very issue with Paxil. She solved it with the Rabbit.


Although she has told me there has not been any affairs of any kind there is a person she informed me was "pursuing" her a couple years back that use to come to the small law office she briefly worked at in our town. When I asked for more details about who he was etc she didn't want to tell me anything else about him. I asked if it was someone I know, she said no. I didn't force the issue that night but I assure you, I will know everything sooner or later. I'm just happy with our progress so far too.

I think the antidepressant is called Zolaf (something with a Z) I know when my wife has orgasmed, and she has had many sense we've been married. I just don't know exactly what she likes that I'm doing or not doing that makes her orgasm.


----------



## Chaparral

bagdon said:


> Although she has told me there has not been any affairs of any kind there is a person she informed me was "pursuing" her a couple years back that use to come to the small law office she briefly worked at in our town. When I asked for more details about who he was etc she didn't want to tell me anything else about him. I asked if it was someone I know, she said no. I didn't force the issue that night but I assure you, I will know everything sooner or later. I'm just happy with our progress so far too.
> 
> I think the antidepressant is called Zolaf (something with a Z) I know when my wife has orgasmed, and she has had many sense we've been married. I just don't know exactly what she likes that I'm doing or not doing that makes her orgasm.


Google it.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> Although she has told me there has not been any affairs of any kind there is a person she informed me was "pursuing" her a couple years back that use to come to the small law office she briefly worked at in our town. When I asked for more details about who he was etc she didn't want to tell me anything else about him. I asked if it was someone I know, she said no. I didn't force the issue that night but I assure you, I will know everything sooner or later. I'm just happy with our progress so far too.
> 
> I think the antidepressant is called Zolaf (something with a Z) I know when my wife has orgasmed, and she has had many sense we've been married. I just don't know exactly what she likes that I'm doing or not doing that makes her orgasm.


 The AD you are referring to is Zoloft. One of Zoloft's common side effects is interfering with sex as I mentioned earlier. I am going to PM you some advice.


----------



## bagdon

We're hugging and kissing around the house like we did when we first got married; it's been great. My brother tells me the kids have been talking to him saying that they think we're going to have another baby; they all seem happy. I don't want to ever go back to like I was before; I need to stay focused on my self improvement goals.
Well, we had sex last Thursday; again, I am happily and purposely instigating to make this a common thing...at this rate that's averaging 3 times a week! Unfortunately again, she did not orgasm and that can not be a common thing. I think all of your comments and Broken in Brooklyn's PM to me are indeed accurate and I plan to nip this in the bud before it becomes an issue.


----------



## bagdon

I am still tracking her menstrual cycle and my calculations have her "blue" starting around Tuesday this week so I think I'm going to plan on doing some extra cleaning, cooking and errands this week to keep her as comfortable as possible during her "uncomfortable" time...I'll be playful and flirty but no instigating sex.


----------



## weightlifter

Do we actually have a good news thread? I wont curse this one by saying it is.

Damn I needed that Bag. From one believer to another thanks for a little light in this dark dark world and prayers with you.


----------



## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> Bagdon, check out the Slow Carb Diet from Tim Ferriss, author of "4 Hour Body." This is an excellent way to get down to a very low body fat without any hunger pangs. It does take a little discipline, but the results are excellent for most people.
> 
> There are also good links at the bottom of the Wikipedia entry.


Thank you Mach; This really looks like something that will fit into my life fitness goals; my work schedule has changed from 4 day summer work weeks back to the regular 5 day and some weekend and nights thanks to the students and events being back in full effect.


----------



## firefly789

I had to go on an antidepressant when my mom was on hospice and my dad had a stroke at the same time. Very difficult time. My H and I got away for our anniversary weekend at our favorite hotel in our favorite place. Usually that meant a lot of sex. We did have a lot of sex, but I couldn't have an O, which had never happened before. I had only one all weekend and that was from intensive trying in H's part. I had no idea this was a side effect of my Rx until I went online. Talked to my doctor (a woman) when I got back. She gave me Wellbutrin, another antidepressant, to take 1 hour before sex. Worked like a charm. I could have orgasams again. Wellbutrin is the one med that can also raise a woman's sex drive on it's own. No one tells women about these side effects.


----------



## bagdon

I think I'm pretty close to on-target with her menstrual cycle; this morning we talked a while at the kitchen table before I left for work. She mentioned her cycle was on during the conversation... more "future" talk btw.

We also talked a little about "nice guy syndrome" and how it's affected my life and our lives as a married couple. I told her how I feel my mom is probably ashamed of me for living in her house at my age with a family of my own. I know my mom wants good things for me and my family and she would never admit something like that but subtle things she, probably subconsciously, does and says make me believe so. Needles to say, we are tightening up on getting ready to move.

We're still praying about the big house on 3 acres and I am getting our financial "ducks" in order. We're praying for what may seem like a miracle...but God has already done so much for me and my family through our marriage that I'm having trouble doubting that things are really starting to manifest into good success and prosperity on all fronts.

I altered my fitness schedule to workouts at night before bed now so my wife actually watched me workout last night. I don't know, she seemed a little turned on by it  Another thing she mentioned this morning was she was hoping she might be pregnant as I've told her several times that God would probably really be about to bless us financially if we got pregnant especially sense I have had a vasectomy.


----------



## bagdon

Oh! Her diary has been sitting out on the kitchen table where she has set up writing and working on her book for a couple of weeks now and I haven't had even the slightest urge to read it. I want whatever feelings and thoughts to come directly from her to me from now on. I imagine there are more positive than negative entries lately...


----------



## Chaparral

I don't understand the part about her hoping she was pregnant and you having a vasectomy. What am I missing?


----------



## bagdon

Chaparral said:


> I don't understand the part about her hoping she was pregnant and you having a vasectomy. What am I missing?


She's looking for a miracle/sign from God that our financial situation will take a strong up turn...i.e. my comments about it being an act of God for her to get pregnant now that I've had a vasectomy therefore God will more than likely increase our financial income/wealth...and she also just wants to have another baby even though she was the one who encouraged me to get the vasectomy. Hope that cleared it up for you a bit...


----------



## GTdad

bagdon said:


> She's looking for a miracle/sign from God that our financial situation will take a strong up turn...i.e. my comments about it being an act of God for her to get pregnant now that I've had a vasectomy therefore God will more than likely increase our financial income/wealth...and she also just wants to have another baby even though she was the one who encouraged me to get the vasectomy partly because she didn't like condoms. Hope that cleared it up for you a bit...


It's far from a painless (or cheap) option, but I had a reversal which was quite effective (to the tune of four more kids ).

I don't want to jinx anything either, but it may be a little early in the game to be seriously considering more kids. That said, I'm still rooting for you, brother.


----------



## bagdon

GTdad said:


> It's far from a painless (or cheap) option, but I had a reversal which was quite effective (to the tune of four more kids ).
> 
> I don't want to jinx anything either, but it may be a little early in the game to be seriously considering more kids. That said, I'm still rooting for you, brother.


Personally, I'm happy with the three kids we have now. I don't want to go back to diapers, potty training and day care at my age. I have a great time and enjoy each of my children and I've got tons of video footage of all three when they were babies which THEY watch all the time. My wife knows this and I think part of her desire for a baby is/was our disconnected relationship; I think as we work on our marriage she will come to want more time with me than another child. I want more time with her...babies get in the way of that.


----------



## bagdon

We had a brief discussion about the sexual side effects of Zoloft this morning at the kitchen table. I shared with her some of the remedies I learned of....This could be a spring board into more sexual growth and experimentation for us....more connection as a couple I think.

We've never just discussed sex like this before; I feel like we're really starting to know each other more; really connect. The look on her face as we were talking said more to me than anything; it was like an incredulous yet excited expression like, I can't believe he's talking about this with me... no more predictable boring Bagdon.


----------



## Chaparral

There are several chemical/hormone,,bonding chemicals exchanged during sex. What are the effects of a vasectomy on these transfers?


----------



## bagdon

Chaparral said:


> There are several chemical/hormone,,bonding chemicals exchanged during sex. What are the effects of a vasectomy on these transfers?


I have read that portion of MMSLP. I had the vasectomy done in 2004, shortly after my son (third child) was born. A reversal in the near future is not an option for me so I'll have to do the best I can.


----------



## bagdon

My first born daughter (14 yo) has been sick for almost a week now, some kind of virus I think, and my wife has been intensively caring for her. I got home from work yesterday and checked on my daughter and gave her a long hug and a kiss on the cheek; I noticed my wife smiling at us when I looked over at her...normally I have been initiating all of our hugs; yesterday my wife got up from her chair, walked over to me and gave me a great big hug w/ an added smooch from me. (in front of all three kids)

We slept in my daughter's room last night to keep an eye on her. (there are two beds in there) My wife slept close to me, hugged, spooned me and made sure I spooned her. She monitored our daughter all night too...feels like she's starting to let me in a little more and share the unconditional love she gives the children.


----------



## Thound

bagdon said:


> My first born daughter (14 yo) has been sick for almost a week now, some kind of virus I think, and my wife has been intensively caring for her. I got home from work yesterday and checked on my daughter and gave her a long hug and a kiss on the cheek; I noticed my wife smiling at us when I looked over at her...normally I have been initiating all of our hugs; yesterday my wife got up from her chair, walked over to me and gave me a great big hug w/ an added smooch from me. (in front of all three kids)
> 
> We slept in my daughter's room last night to keep an eye on her. (there are two beds in there) My wife slept close to me, hugged, spooned me and made sure I spooned her. She monitored our daughter all night too...feels like she's starting to let me in a little more and share the unconditional love she gives the children.


I'm very happy for you. You never know what you have until you lose it. Or in your case almost losing it.


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## bagdon

This Morning I was a little melancholy driving to work. Although we're a work in progress, I'm happy with my wife now and I started thinking about possibly falling back into "nice guy" mode. I want to insure that that doesn't happen. I don't ever want to feel slighted, disrespected and unloved by her again.

I think what triggered this feeling is not doing my workout last night or doing my morning run this morning; I was so tired after church last night. I have to adjust to my schedule and just push through daily...life is not perfect; I will have ups and downs.


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## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> Thank you Mach; This really looks like something that will fit into my life fitness goals; my work schedule has changed from 4 day summer work weeks back to the regular 5 day and some weekend and nights thanks to the students and events being back in full effect.


Remember, for a diet to work, you must actually stay on it. This diet has a built in "cheat" (which is actually part of the diet) but you must stay on the diet and don't cheat in any way, other than in the prescribed manner.


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## Thound

Machiavelli said:


> Remember, for a diet to work, you must actually stay on it. This diet has a built in "cheat" (which is actually part of the diet) but you must stay on the diet and don't cheat in any way, other than in the prescribed manner.


Make it a life style versus diet?


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## bagdon

This Morning's scripture:
*Proverbs 11:14*
"Where there is no counsel, the people fall; But in the multitude of counselors, there is safety."
Commentary:
*multitude of counselors.* As in 15:22; 20:18; 24:6, a good decision is made with multiple wise advisers. The more crucial the decision, the more appropriate is corporate wisdom. Note the example of David ( 2 Sam. 15:30-17:23)

What an appropriate read this morning...You all immediately came to mind as I read it. Every TAM member's advice is/was helpful to some degree. I have to thank you again. I believe the relationship between me and my wife is the most important relationship that God wants me to actively and intentionally develop; I think in many ways, our marriage relationship mirrors our relationship with God. 

I think I have crossed another threshold or come to a crossroad of sorts in my journey to being a better husband, father, businessman etc. Our marriage is in considerably less jeopardy and is now into the "long haul" aspect of making my "better man" transformation into a lifestyle and not just a technique to win back my wife. As I said before, I don't want to fall back into old habits; I want to remain consistent in my new lifestyle. I hope to lean on my TAM family through it as well as provide whatever support and insight I can offer back to you from my experiences.


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## Thound

bagdon said:


> This Morning's scripture:
> *Proverbs 11:14*
> "Where there is no counsel, the people fall; But in the multitude of counselors, there is safety."
> Commentary:
> *multitude of counselors.* As in 15:22; 20:18; 24:6, a good decision is made with multiple wise advisers. The more crucial the decision, the more appropriate is corporate wisdom. Note the example of David ( 2 Sam. 15:30-17:23)
> 
> What an appropriate read this morning...You all immediately came to mind as I read it. Every TAM member's advice is/was helpful to some degree. I have to thank you again. I believe the relationship between me and my wife is the most important relationship that God wants me to actively and intentionally develop; I think in many ways, our marriage relationship mirrors our relationship with God.
> 
> I think I have crossed another threshold or come to a crossroad of sorts in my journey to being a better husband, father, businessman etc. Our marriage is in considerably less jeopardy and is now into the "long haul" aspect of making my "better man" transformation into a lifestyle and not just a technique to win back my wife. As I said before, I don't want to fall back into old habits; I want to remain consistent in my new lifestyle. I hope to lean on my TAM family through it as well as provide whatever support and insight I can offer back to you from my experiences.


I believe you are 100% correct. I want a close personal relationship with my wife, just like God wants with me. Now I know how God feels (kind of).


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## bagdon

Thound said:


> I believe you are 100% correct. I want a close personal relationship with my wife, just like God wants with me. Now I know how God feels (kind of).


I hear you


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## Machiavelli

Thound said:


> Make it a life style versus diet?


Pretty much. It's a diet that is very close, except for the legumes, to a traditional hunter gatherer diet. The funny thing is, once you are where you want to be, you can get away with murder about 10% of the time if you toe the line the other 90%. In truth, it takes a lot of unnatural foods and unnatural levels of eating to reach the "American Standard" physique.


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## bagdon

I got back on track with my exercise last night and this morning. One day at a time. Still working on eating like I should. 

One thing that keeps me going is remembering the pain from reading "I am not in any way physically attracted to him"...
It's not a bitter grudge like feeling, just I don't ever want my physical appearance to be an issue.

The sex is getting better and better btw.


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## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> I got back on track with my exercise last night and this morning. One day at a time. Still working on eating like I should.
> 
> One thing that keeps me going is remembering the pain from reading "I am not in any way physically attracted to him"...
> It's not a bitter grudge like feeling, just I don't ever want my physical appearance to be an issue.
> 
> The sex is getting better and better btw.


Excellent. Once you add the "golden ratio", it'll get even better.


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## bagdon

Well, School is back in full swing! Our two daughters are attending two different high schools this year and our son is being home schooled. This past Monday was the first day. We're all up at 5:30am and back home by 6:00pm. 

I was of course exhausted by 9:00pm last night and got to bed by 9:30pm. I was awakened with my wife hugging and rubbing all up on me around 11:30pm. A couple of nights earlier, she told me she couldn't sleep when I would caress and message her at night; I told her I thought she was using that as an excuse to keep me off of her back in the dark days of our marriage. She laughed and said that she really couldn't sleep when I did that....so last night was her attempt at proving her point that it's hard to sleep when someone is rubbing up against you like that. Had I not been so disoriented and just burned out...

I texted her about it later this morning at work.

<me> "You know you were playing with fire last night...almost got me started; If I weren't..."

<Mrs bagdon> "So tired, yeah Iknow"

<me> "If I wasn't so delirious it would have been on! "

<Mrs bagdon> "No, it would not. We would still be asleep right now."

<me> "Hahahaaa! Your will power to refrain would prob have prevailed...I'm always ready for you..."

We always oversleep after a late night session of sex. 

Anyway, just wanted to share that.


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## weightlifter

Glad to see at least one apparent good news.


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## Thound

Happy for you, and kinda jealous.


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## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> Well, School is back in full swing! Our two daughters are attending two different high schools this year and our son is being home schooled. This past Monday was the first day. We're all up at 5:30am and back home by 6:00pm.
> 
> I was of course exhausted by 9:00pm last night and got to bed by 9:30pm. I was awakened with my wife hugging and rubbing all up on me around 11:30pm. A couple of nights earlier, she told me she couldn't sleep when I would caress and message her at night; I told her I thought she was using that as an excuse to keep me off of her back in the dark days of our marriage. She laughed and said that she really couldn't sleep when I did that....so last night was her attempt at proving her point that it's hard to sleep when someone is rubbing up against you like that. Had I not been so disoriented and just burned out...
> 
> I texted her about it later this morning at work.
> 
> <me> "You know you were playing with fire last night...almost got me started; If I weren't..."
> 
> <Mrs bagdon> "So tired, yeah Iknow"
> 
> <me> "If I wasn't so delirious it would have been on! "
> 
> <Mrs bagdon> "No, it would not. We would still be asleep right now."
> 
> <me> "Hahahaaa! Your will power to refrain would prob have prevailed...I'm always ready for you..."
> 
> We always oversleep after a late night session of sex.
> 
> Anyway, just wanted to share that.


Never turn down sex. Sometimes it is tough when you are beat, but you got to remember that generally the woman is turned on by being desired. If she puts out the bait, you need to grab it.


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## Thound

Machiavelli said:


> Never turn down sex. Sometimes it is tough when you are beat, but you got to remember that generally the woman is turned on by being desired. If she puts out the bait, you need to grab it.


hook, line, and sinker.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> Never turn down sex. Sometimes it is tough when you are beat, but you got to remember that generally the woman is turned on by being desired. If she puts out the bait, you need to grab it.


HaHa! I certainly didn't turn down sex from my wife. She stopped as I was just starting to come out of sleep. 

She said "I told you, you can't sleep when this is happening...go back to sleep"
I think she was horny but realized just how tired I must have been because I was out of my mind and speaking incoherently; I seriously thought It was a dream part of the morning when I got up. She has experienced me coming out of a dead sleep for sex early in our marriage! LOL!


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## bagdon

She kisses me back on the lips every time I lean in to kiss her now. 
She talks more about things to do for my/our company and ideas for marketing and generating business. 
She shares practical thoughts on our search for a home of our own. 
She continues to encourage me to get and stay fit.
She listens and responds to things I share with her about my personal growth.
She's wearing all the dresses and clothes that she knows turns me on to her.
I'm still learning and growing...
Life is good.


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## Blonde

You go Bagdon! You da man!


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## Blonde

Don't overlook browsing these houses. Deep discount!

Fannie Mae REO Homes For Sale - HomePath.com


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## Machiavelli

How's the weight training coming along?


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## bagdon

Machiavelli said:


> How's the weight training coming along?


Way off. My summer schedule was great for training. The school and work schedule has me bushed everyday and I totally fell off my diet but I have slowly acclimated to the new schedule. I'm preparing to start back full force Next week. (September) Diet and training. I'll be working out in the evenings as opposed to the mornings from that point; my wife likes the idea as she is not a morning person, she can do some of the run/walks with me.

It's funny, during work I was in deep thought earlier this morning about how much my physical appearance really affects my wife (and other women for that matter). As I said before, I don't ever want my physical appearance to be a negative factor with our relationship so I'm resolved to achieve my golden ratio. 

Thanks for asking.


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## Machiavelli

bagdon said:


> Way off. My summer schedule was great for training. The school and work schedule has me bushed everyday and I totally fell off my diet but I have slowly acclimated to the new schedule. I'm preparing to start back full force Next week. (September) Diet and training. I'll be working out in the evenings as opposed to the mornings from that point; my wife likes the idea as she is not a morning person, she can do some of the run/walks with me.
> 
> It's funny, during work I was in deep thought earlier this morning about how much my physical appearance really affects my wife (and other women for that matter). As I said before, I don't ever want my physical appearance to be a negative factor with our relationship so I'm resolved to achieve my golden ratio.
> 
> Thanks for asking.


Remember, the beauty of HIT is you're in the gym for less than an hour per week and "cardio" is not needed.


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## jdd

Any update from the past two weeks?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bagdon

I'm still struggling with my diet and a steady fitness routine; my work hours have been crazy the past few weeks. I'm not worried, I will get on it. My brother has been really inspirational in that area as he has continued with his fitness training and is showing off his physique. This guy is enjoying the single life too! (we're identical twins if you didn't know)

Things are continuing to move in a positive direction with my life and family. My daughters are adjusting well in their new schools and my son is doing pretty good with homeschool. They are all visibly happy with me and their mom's outward show of affection and love for each other. We pray together as a family just about every night too.

My wife and I are still planning to attend Retrovaille in a few weeks. The sex is good but we've been so worn out and busy that it's dwindled down to about once a week average now; I'm looking forward to that weekend away with her.

The relationship between my wife and my mother has improved as well. My wife seemed happy to tell my mother we were going away for a "married couples workshop" weekend in October and we needed her to keep an eye on the kids for us. The house renovation hit a snag as the contractor miscalculated the cost for some portions but didn't tell us until after the closing (very disappointing) so we have had to regroup and hire a new contractor; we just met with him yesterday.

My wife has been instrumental in passing out business cards and getting new possible leads on audio/video projects for the company. She's also getting a lot of leads for bringing in some income through her company and volunteering. 

We're slowly getting our ducks in a row researching and keeping our eyes open for a new home of our own. All is well and we're counting our blessings. Preparing for more!


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## bagdon

Today my wife is out with my oldest daughter attending a writer's organization meeting. My baby girl is sleeping in at her grandmother's house next door. I took care of the lawn this morning and I'm hanging out with my son; we're preparing to go out to eat and play games.

My wife and I have been calling and texting each other periodically this morning about different things. Here's our last text exchange so far:

Mrs bagdon < I find myself falling in love with you all over again.>

Me < I Love you> 

 I've been waiting to to hear/read that from her. God is Good.


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## jdd

bagdon said:


> Today my wife is out with my oldest daughter attending a writer's organization meeting. My baby girl is sleeping in at her grandmother's house next door. I took care of the lawn this morning and I'm hanging out with my son; we're preparing to go out to eat and play games.
> 
> My wife and I have been calling and texting each other periodically this morning about different things. Here's our last text exchange so far:
> 
> Mrs bagdon < I find myself falling in love with you all over again.>
> 
> Me < I Love you>
> 
> I've been waiting to to hear/read that from her. God is Good.


Congratulations!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

bagdon said:


> I know this is old stuff but I want opinions to what this means...
> My wife wrote a facebook post on May 31st saying,
> 
> "Since when was the presence or absence of a wedding ring a prerequisite for a man to be a gentleman?"
> 
> I saw it soon after she wrote it and every time I see it I wonder what does she mean by that?
> 
> I guess you can tell I'm feeling a little blue today; just not liking the idea of my wife not respecting or loving me. Thinking about how I failed myself and my family up to this point. Don't worry, this bout of depression shouldn't last long I hope. I suppose this is part of the process of improving and getting back on top. So I embrace even the times that feel so crappy.
> I'm living and I'm getting better.


Catching up on your thread. Maybe the answer to this comes later. But there are two possible takes: mad at you for being angry that she didn't have her ring on. Some guy hit on her aggressively and he justified himself by saying she didn't have wedding ring.


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## bagdon

LongWalk said:


> Catching up on your thread. Maybe the answer to this comes later. But there are two possible takes: mad at you for being angry that she didn't have her ring on. Some guy hit on her aggressively and he justified himself by saying she didn't have wedding ring.


I found out what that was about soon after things turned for the better. Some guy was hitting on her in the Walmart parking lot...I expounded on it later on in the thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Completed your thread. What you have shared can help others. 

I am an atheist but I like your approach to faith. It seemed that you do not expect much from God, except that he gives you a chance and from there on out the responsibility to act is yours. You seized the opportunity and succeeded. Well done.

Seems that you are liked in your church, so that even during that period when she was not attracted to you, she grudgingly would have admitted that you were a steadfast person, someone with values.Do you think that your wife's new found respect came in part from your status in church?

re: Machiavelli versus the women posters

This discussion is very valuable for both men and women. I think there is misunderstanding here about what Mach believes. I don't want put words in his mouth but I agree that the laws of sexual attraction are hardwired into our brains. We would be foolish to pretend otherwise.

The most important factors include class, wealth and education. A woman who has BA from a good university is not going to fall in love with a guy who went to work straight out of high school laying tar roof, regardless of how cut his upper body looks.

There are always hotter men and women. And yet couples do not dissolve their relationships lightly. However, when a couple have been together for a number of years and the husband is in a beta rut, the lack of physical attraction becomes a marriage killer.

Combine this with a failure to lead and many marriage are doomed to be unhappy, even if they never suffer from infidelity.


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## Blonde

> re: Machiavelli versus the women posters


Raises hand. Are there "women" plural on this thread? Most of the ladies didn't venture into the locker room 



LongWalk said:


> The most important factors include class, wealth and education. A woman who has BA from a good university* is not going to fall in love with a guy who* went to work straight out of high school laying tar roof, regardless of how cut his upper body looks.




Tell that to my 18yod who is in a PA program and bf works in housekeeping at a nursing home.

And to my son who is a college dropout and now SAHD married to a PA (whose mother is a Rad Tech and father was SAHD who homeschooled the children and then worked at the Walmart photo counter when the kids grew up)


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## Blonde

bagdon said:


> Mrs bagdon < I find myself falling in love with you all over again.>
> 
> Me < I Love you>
> 
> I've been waiting to to hear/read that from her. God is Good.


AWESOME!

I think the secret is your unfailing respect toward her. Never heard you speak a harsh or resentful word about your wife since you've been here. If anything when your followers were "roasting" her, you spoke in her defense. 

GOOD JOB BAGDON! YOU GO!


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## northernlights

LongWalk said:


> Combine this with a failure to lead and many marriage are doomed to be unhappy, even if they never suffer from infidelity.


Oh no I just threw up! Women don't want or need to be led. To say so is just good old fashioned misogyny.


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## Nucking Futs

northernlights said:


> Oh no I just threw up! Women don't want or need to be led. To say so is just good old fashioned misogyny.


That word gets thrown around too easily. Do you really think Bagdon or LongWalk hate all women?


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## Blonde

Nucking Futs said:


> That word gets thrown around too easily. Do you really think Bagdon or LongWalk hate all women?


No but the "wants to be led" is paternalistic (and can be very dangerous, IME as a recovering "follower" right to Hell on Earth)

Bagdon's wife is an intelligent and accomplished woman. She wants to be valued, appreciated, and respected. She wants to be part of a TEAM, a partnership, like two oxen EQUALLY yoked together (ETA- a Biblical allusion).

Bagdon used to ignore her ideas for his business IIRC?


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## northernlights

Nucking Futs said:


> That word gets thrown around too easily. Do you really think Bagdon or LongWalk hate all women?


misogyny: hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women. You can have misogyny without hating women. So no, I don't think they hate all women. But if they think that women should be led by men, then I will call them misogynists. I think that fairly falls under "mistrust," don't you?


----------



## Nucking Futs

northernlights said:


> misogyny: hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women. You can have misogyny without hating women. So no, I don't think they hate all women. But if they think that women should be led by men, then I will call them misogynists. *I think that fairly falls under "mistrust," don't you?*


No, I don't. I think that you weaken the term when you use it so casually.

The husband being the leader of the family is something that is taught in most christian churches. Your assertion that anyone that believes this way is a misogynist clearly indicates your mistrust for christians, thus you are a religious bigot. 

I don't really think you're a religious bigot, but following your logic maybe I should.

Also I believe that when you employ the term the way you did you intend it to be degrading to the person you are referring to.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Blonde said:


> No but the "wants to be led" is paternalistic (and can be very dangerous, IME as a recovering "follower" right to Hell on Earth)
> 
> Bagdon's wife is an intelligent and accomplished woman. She wants to be valued, appreciated, and respected. She wants to be part of a TEAM, a partnership, *like two oxen EQUALLY yoked together (ETA- a Biblical allusion).
> *
> Bagdon used to ignore her ideas for his business IIRC?


I say you're incorrect about the bold portion. My evidence is below. I eagerly await your scripture reference backing up your point.



Ephesians 5 said:


> *22* Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
> *23* For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
> *24* Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
> *25* Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
> *26* That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
> *27* That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
> *28* So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
> *29* For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
> *30* For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
> *31* For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be oneflesh.
> *32* This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
> *33* Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.


----------



## northernlights

Nucking Futs said:


> No, I don't. I think that you weaken the term when you use it so casually.
> 
> The husband being the leader of the family is something that is taught in most christian churches. Your assertion that anyone that believes this way is a misogynist clearly indicates your mistrust for christians, thus you are a religious bigot.
> 
> I don't really think you're a religious bigot, but following your logic maybe I should.
> 
> Also I believe that when you employ the term the way you did you intend it to be degrading to the person you are referring to.


I don't want to derail bagdon's thread responding to all of your points, though I'll happily take the discussion to another sub forum if you're truly interested. Not tonight though, I'm pooped.

(but just fyi, bigot: 
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

not at all a valid inference to draw from what I wrote)

(and I'm going for enlightening, not degrading)


----------



## Nucking Futs

northernlights said:


> Oh no I just threw up! Women don't want or need to be led. To say so is just good old fashioned misogyny.


This tells me that you are utterly intolerant of biblical teaching about men and womens roles in marriage. You're claiming that you're calling them misogynists in an enlightening way, implying they're wrong for living their lives according to the bible, which makes you a religious bigot. 

I'm not calling you a bigot in a hurtful way, I'm just trying to enlighten you about what you portray about yourself by calling people names.

Maybe in the future instead of resorting to name calling you could just explain that you disagree with the bible and have no tolerance for people that believe in it and live according to it's teachings.


----------



## bagdon

LongWalk said:


> Seems that you are liked in your church, so that even during that period when she was not attracted to you, she grudgingly would have admitted that you were a steadfast person, someone with values.Do you think that your wife's new found respect came in part from your status in church?
> 
> re: Machiavelli versus the women posters
> 
> This discussion is very valuable for both men and women. I think there is misunderstanding here about what Mach believes. I don't want put words in his mouth but I agree that the laws of sexual attraction are hardwired into our brains. We would be foolish to pretend otherwise.
> 
> The most important factors include class, wealth and education. A woman who has BA from a good university is not going to fall in love with a guy who went to work straight out of high school laying tar roof, regardless of how cut his upper body looks.
> 
> There are always hotter men and women. And yet couples do not dissolve their relationships lightly. However, when a couple have been together for a number of years and the husband is in a beta rut, the lack of physical attraction becomes a marriage killer.
> 
> Combine this with a failure to lead and many marriage are doomed to be unhappy, even if they never suffer from infidelity.


I believe my status in the church may have played a part in her respect for me both positive and negative. The church we attend now is one that she chose. I did not attend church at all in 2011 and parts of 2012. She would faithfully attend with our children. 

I felt I needed to separate from church the "institution" for a while. I was unbalanced with my service to the church, my family and my life. The administration of religious service was getting in the way of a true intimate spiritual connection with God I think for me. 

I have sense then renewed my commitment to fellowship, service and worship at our church but in a more balanced way. I am experiencing a transition or "increased maturity" if you will, within my personal faith.



northernlights said:


> misogyny: hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women. You can have misogyny without hating women. So no, I don't think they hate all women. But if they think that women should be led by men, then I will call them misogynists. I think that fairly falls under "mistrust," don't you?


I've been taught and studied within the Christian faith that the husband is held responsible by God for the success or failure of a marriage. The wife, who is an equal partner and not considered less than the husband is not held to that same responsibility within the covenant of marriage.

One general analogy could be a marriage can be likened to a human being with two hands...God represents the human being; one hand represents the husband, the other hand represents the wife. Both hands are equally important to the body but one hand or arm is expected to lift more or to do more.

Another analogy...the marriage can be likened to a business or small organization. Each person within themselves is not less than the other but one is expected and ultimately held responsible to guide or lead the business/organization to it's mutual objectives and goals.

I respect and love my wife for the person and individual that she is. She has her own personal relationship with God that's just as important as my own relationship with God. I've heard that there is no marriage between a man and a woman in the afterlife. It's something God instituted here on earth starting with Adam and Eve.

I've been taught that God is a God of principles. God is a God of order. I believe the same stuff Machiavelli and some of the others who read MMSLP fundamentally speaks parallel to bible scripture regarding the general natural tendencies of most men and women. (although it can be misinterpreted and abused) 

When I talk about a husband leading his wife It's not something that is forced or manipulated onto the wife. A husband can't truly lead his family unless the wife "submits" (decides she wants to follow his lead). The "co pilot" can fly the plane just as well as the "pilot".

I don't think a family/marriage can be successful and balanced without the husband really being the best that he can be and leading in the spirit of love. It's an attitude of self sacrifice and confidence on the part of the husband.


----------



## Blonde

Nucking Futs said:


> I say you're incorrect about the bold portion. My evidence is below. I eagerly await your scripture reference backing up your point.


"Do not be unequally yoked together..." 1 Cor 6:11-18 

note verse 18- the passage is directed to sons and *daughters*. The passage is often used in evangelical circles to discourage dating and marrying unbelievers. 

But for the sake of this discussion, observe the *equality* of the yoking. Neither oxen is "leader" when two oxen are equally yoked together. The farmer/master/Lord/aka Jesus is the only leader. See also Luke 16:13, Gal 3:28


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## anchorwatch

TJ much?


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## Nucking Futs

Blonde said:


> "Do not be unequally yoked together..." 1 Cor 6:11-18
> 
> note verse 18- the passage is directed to sons and *daughters*. The passage is often used in evangelical circles to discourage dating and marrying unbelievers.
> 
> But for the sake of this discussion, observe the *equality* of the yoking. Neither oxen is "leader" when two oxen are equally yoked together. The farmer/master/Lord/aka Jesus is the only leader. See also Luke 16:13, Gal 3:28


You could certainly interpret it that way unless you read the rest of it. here, let me help you out, from your own link:

14 *Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers.* For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?




This verse is not talking about a relationship between husband and wife, but a relationship between christian and non-christian. Marriage is not referenced anywhere in this chapter. Frankly, this verse does not say what you want it to say.

Lets look (briefly) at your next citation, Luke 16:13.

13 “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.”


I don't see what you're trying to imply that this says. Are you implying that mammon is referring to a husband? I'm just confused by your including this verse since it clearly is off topic.


Let's try your next one, Galatians 3:28.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Whoa, you might have something here! Unless you read it in context. Lets add a little context, shall we?


26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you _are_ Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Oh, look, he's talking about salvation, not marriage! Lookee there, he means that it doesn't matter who or what you were, once you're saved you're a christian.


You see, feminists have scoured the bible looking for justification for their opinions but it's just not there, so they take things out of context.


The bible clearly states the husband is supposed to lead the family. Nowhere in the bible is that contradicted.


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## Blonde

Nucking Futs said:


> This tells me that you are utterly intolerant of biblical teaching about men and womens roles in marriage. You're claiming that you're calling them misogynists in an enlightening way, implying they're wrong for living their lives according to the bible, which makes you a religious bigot.
> 
> I'm not calling you a bigot in a hurtful way, I'm just trying to enlighten you about what you portray about yourself by calling people names.
> 
> Maybe in the future instead of resorting to name calling you could just explain that you disagree with the bible and have no tolerance for people that believe in it and live according to it's teachings.


^^I am a Bible believing Christian who completely rejects the way "wife submission" has traditionally been taught (and still is throughout much of evangelical christendom)

And TBH, I think I have spent far FAR more time in Scripture and wrestling with God over the relevant passages than most of the people who propagate what I now consider dangerous self-interested bologna. I don't reject the Scriptures in question. To the contrary, I have investigated them very very deeply and I do not think they say what you think they say. Here's where I used to blog A Wife's Submission | Lessons Learned in the Crucible of Marriage. As you can see if you look at the blog, I could talk to you for pages in great depth about any passage you want to use to insist that your wife must submit to you.

But I see from bagdon's example (even if he uses the "trigger words" of leading around his submissive wife) that he is really finally listening to her and engaging in mutual submission (accepting her ideas for his business, listening to her desire to have their own home, supporting her dreams whether they be writing or a lawyer job, etc, etc, etc.)


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## Blonde

Nucking Futs said:


> Y
> The bible clearly states the husband is supposed to lead the family. Nowhere in the bible is that contradicted.


I think we might need another thread for this. 

I challenge you to show me a scripture that says that the husband is supposed to lead the wife and/or be her "authority"?

One day, when I still believed that BS, I looked it up. What a shocker to find the ONLY example in the Bible of husband is ruler of the household comes from Xerxes- pagan king when he got pissed that his wife refused to parade around for his drunken buddies wearing (nothing but?) her crown. 

Even better, look who IS supposed to be the despot of the household :rofl:

Another eye opener for me in my research was when I found out the real meaning of oiko*despot*-eô / oikodespoteō from 1 Tim 5:14. 

Have you ever heard before that WOMEN are to be “master of the home”/ “queen of the castle”?

*What motivates the silence?*

I'd be happy to continue this discussion but you better open up a thread elsewhere nf as it is a major tangent from bagdon's life story... I don't gather that he was ever one to club his wife over the head with bible verses about her obligation to lay down and doormat for him...


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## Nucking Futs

Blonde said:


> ^^I am a Bible believing Christian who completely rejects the way "wife submission" has traditionally been taught (and still is throughout much of evangelical christendom)
> 
> And TBH, I think I have spent far FAR more time in Scripture and wrestling with God over the relevant passages than most of the people who propagate what I now consider dangerous self-interested bologna. *I don't reject the Scriptures in question.* To the contrary, I have investigated them very very deeply and I do not think they say what you think they say. Here's where I used to blog A Wife's Submission | Lessons Learned in the Crucible of Marriage. As you can see if you look at the blog, I could talk to you for pages in great depth about any passage you want to use to insist that your wife must submit to you.
> 
> But I see from bagdon's example (even if he uses the "trigger words" of leading around his submissive wife) that he is really finally listening to her and engaging in mutual submission (accepting her ideas for his business, listening to her desire to have their own home, supporting her dreams whether they be writing or a lawyer job, etc, etc, etc.)


If you don't accept that wives are instructed to submit themselves to their husbands then you are rejecting Ephesians 5:22-25. I don't see how you can argue that when it says "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord" it doesn't mean "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord."


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## Blonde

Nucking Futs said:


> If you don't accept that wives are instructed to submit themselves to their husbands then you are rejecting Ephesians 5:22-25. I don't see how you can argue that when it says "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord" it doesn't mean "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord."


If you are *really* interested in how I utterly reject any obligation for a wife to submit to her husband but I completely accept Eph 5 as God breathed in the original autographs, then open another thread and I will show you.

I won't be disrespectful to bagdon by dragging this discussion out anymore on his thread.

/tangent and back to 
BAGDON- SUCCESS STORY :smthumbup:


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## Nucking Futs

> I think we might need another thread for this.
> 
> *I challenge you to show me a scripture that says that the husband is supposed to lead the wife and/or be her "authority"?*
> 
> *One day, when I still believed that BS, I looked it up. What a shocker to find the ONLY example in the Bible of a husband being ruler of the household was Xerxes- pagan king. Ruler | A Wife's Submission*
> 
> Even better, look who IS supposed to be the despot of the household :rofl:
> 
> Another eye opener for me in my research was when I found out the real meaning of oiko*despot*-eô / oikodespoteō from 1 Tim 5:14.
> 
> Have you ever heard before that WOMEN are to be “master of the home”/ “queen of the castle”?
> 
> *What motivates the silence?*
> 
> I'd be happy to continue this discussion but you better open up a thread elsewhere nf as it is a major tangent from bagdon's life story... I don't gather that he was ever one to club his wife over the head with bible verses about her obligation to lay down and doormat for him...


Does Ephesians 5 not exist in your version of the bible? Women are to manage the home under the leadership of the husband. 

Also, I pm'd Bagdon last night and he's ok with where the thread is going.


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## bagdon

I welcomed this line of conversation initially but now it's gotten a little too far into our personal beliefs to be helpful to some on this particular thread. I appreciate how considerate and respectful everyone has been thus far. I would be happy to participate in the discussion on another thread. The title could be "Who says women have to submit?!"


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## lovelifeandwanttoenjoyit

bagdon said:


> I welcomed this line of conversation initially but now it's gotten a little too far into our personal beliefs to be helpful to some on this particular thread. I appreciate how considerate and respectful everyone has been thus far. I would be happy to participate in the discussion on another thread. The title could be "Who says women have to submit?!"


Agree with you Bagdon, can you tell us the status of things? someone in my thread recommended yours as I'm going through a difficult situation my self.....Great comments...and found a lot of inspiration here as well ( have not read all the comments)


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## bagdon

lovelifeandwanttoenjoyit said:


> Agree with you Bagdon, can you tell us the status of things? someone in my thread recommended yours as I'm going through a difficult situation my self.....Great comments...and found a lot of inspiration here as well ( have not read all the comments)


Things are steady and getting stronger in our relationship. We're preparing to attend a Retrouvaille weekend the first weekend in October. 

My wife told me that her blood pressure has been the best it's been in a long time after a visit to the Dr. today.

I use this support forum to keep me on track with my self improvement. It helps to read my old posts and remember where my mind and emotions were back in June when I realized I was in desperate need of help. I spend a lot of time reading the "long time success in marriage" threads too. I enjoy talking with you all and reading your stories...very helpful to me. I'm bout to check out your thread if you have one; I would be more than happy to share whatever I can that may be helpful to you.


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## lovelifeandwanttoenjoyit

GTdad said:


> Anchor's right, it is normal. One of the items on your to-do list will be to lose the fear, but it's a process, not an event. As you realize and understand the truth of "I can handle it", regardless of what "it" may be, that fear will leave. And my God is it ever liberating. In my opinion, losing the fear is the single most valuable aspect of self-improvement there is. Keep reading and working at it.


This is so true, I have only participated in this forum a few days and just reading all the information is provide has had impact on me, reading 180 and NMNG at the moment.......


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## lovelifeandwanttoenjoyit

bagdon said:


> Things are steady and getting stronger in our relationship. We're preparing to attend a Retrouvaille weekend the first weekend in October.
> 
> My wife told me that her blood pressure has been the best it's been in a long time after a visit to the Dr. today.
> 
> I use this support forum to keep me on track with my self improvement. It helps to read my old posts and remember where my mind and emotions were back in June when I realized I was in desperate need of help. I spend a lot of time reading the "long time success in marriage" threads too. I enjoy talking with you all and reading your stories...very helpful to me. I'm bout to check out your thread if you have one; I would be more than happy to share whatever I can that may be helpful to you.


that would be great, thank you any feedback is more than welcome!!!:smthumbup:


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## LongWalk

I have replied to Blondie and Northern Lights on the new thread.


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## bagdon

Today is an interesting day. 

We lost a very dear friend of ours on Wednesday, Sept. 18th. He was our former pastor that walked my wife down the aisle to me when we married. He was like the father she never had. He was only 57...He was found in his home by one of the ministers that went to check on him as he was not answering his phone.

He was beloved in the community and it feels like a hole has been torn out of my heart. I know my wife is hurting. We've consoled one another and shared as best we could over the past week.

Today she had a bit of a break down in front of me as she was obviously overwhelmed with all that's going on. 
* The Death of our dear friend and the up coming funeral this Saturday
* Our car going on the fritz this week
* Several new cases that she has taken on with another attorney 
* a frustrating day today with our son's homeschooling projects
* $350 school fee coming up next week
* the house renovation process
* Retrouvaille weekend $$$
* etc...

I feel the pressure too but it has been more of an introspective feeling for me. I had been procrastinating on renewing my life insurance and a couple days after his death we went and got it.

Anyway, I was standing in the kitchen chatting with her about daily details...I'll admit it did sound and feel a little daunting. She put her head in her hands and said, "I may have bitten off more than I can handle" and sat there at her computer like that for a while. I said, "you're feeling a little overwhelmed?" She shook her head yes. I stood there silent for a while then walked over and rubbed her back and said it's going to be alright; we have ups and downs; this will pass. 

I recently studied that adversity is something meant for us to persevere, not just endure. So I believe this is our test to a more mature relationship with each other and God.


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## Syco

Hang in there :smthumbup:


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## Ovid

bagdon said:


> I recently studied that adversity is something meant for us to persevere, not just endure. So I believe this is our test to a more mature relationship with each other and God.


This is an opportunity for the two of you to grow closer together by supporting one another.


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## Ovid

bagdon said:


> Anyway, I was standing in the kitchen chatting with her about daily details...I'll admit it did sound and feel a little daunting. She put her heads in her hands and said, "I may have bitten off more than I can handle" and sat there at her computer like that for a while. I said, "you're feeling a little overwhelmed?" She shook her head yes. I stood there silent for a while then walked over and rubbed her back and said it's going to be alright; we have ups and downs; this will pass.


If there is something she needs done that you can handle, take care of it for her. Don't wait on her hand and foot, but do find things you can take care of for her and get them done so she has less on her plate. It will give her a stress relief that will actually help her work better, as well as reducing the overwhelmed feeling.

When you have any free time at all, grab the lawn mower and go door to door offering to mow their lawn for $5. Front only. More if they want the back. Keep doing that until you have the money you need/want. Do this to replace your walking until you're in a better position. You'll get exercise, money, and your wife will respect you for pulling money out of nothing.


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## HangingOnHope

What an inspirational thread, Bagdon.

I do hope you check in soon and let us know if things are still progressing well? Best wishes that its continuing progress.


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## bagdon

I appreciate the prayers and well wishes from all who have witnessed and commented on this thread.

Just the other day I recognized and took note of a new attitude demonstrated by my wife in our relationship. I believe my life changing actions have spurred a new zeal in her to do some things differently as well; I can tell she too is actively "working" to be a better wife, mother, sister, daughter-in-law and professional. We haven't talked about it yet and we do share and discuss way more than we use to...I just notice and feel the change. 

When it comes to being a better wife to me, she's got her work cut out for her because I've got "issues"! LOL! I feel we are finally, truly headed towards a fulfilling life together.

We're in constant communication with each other in some form or fashion everyday; we hug and kiss all the time; sex is frequent and anticipated...she definitely "takes care of me" in that category. We take time to confront or discuss changes or perceived changes in our demeanor when we see it. We're also actively working on the company and preparing "together" with a plan to get a new home. 

I think we've figured out that this marriage is about effort and work and we are starting to decipher more often than not when something is a problem and how to confront the problem and not the person.

We're still fresh into it so I'm sure mistakes will come but now I think we have the knowledge and the right spirit to deal with them. We have both fallen off the wagon hard with our physical fitness and have vowed to begin anew...together this time. We joked about sex being one of our "work out" techniques.  

Sometimes I think my wife may know about TAM. She's a smart and perceptive person and I'm sure she's noticed me switch the screen at times she's walked in on me while I was on here. If she does know, she's chosen to not open that door of discussion yet and apparently is enjoying our new found love for now.

I can only control my actions not anyone else's; I can handle whatever happens....I'm enjoying this part of the journey!


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## LongWalk

She thought you had some sort of counseling, didn't she?


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## HangingOnHope

As I said before, inspirational  Glad to hear this update, its really uplifting. oh..and your 'work out' routines? Nice! 

If your wife does know about TAM & has read, I'd guess she is very proud of you and your efforts. I know I would be.

Continued success to you, Bagdon. Keep up the good work.


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## bagdon

LongWalk said:


> She thought you had some sort of counseling, didn't she?


Well, I did for a brief period when I started with TAM. I told her about that but not TAM.


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## bagdon

I'm convinced she's been here...I left the browser tab with TAM up while my son watched youtube videos in my office today. My wife needed to print something and went to her email on my computer. when she closed her email tab the TAM tab popped up. She didn't react to it at all and continued on with her conversation with me and the kids. By her not looking and asking what it was tells me she's been here.
I don't know if this is positive or negative....


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## anchorwatch

Bagdon, if you don't mind?


Mrs. Bagdon,

Let me be the first to welcome you! 

Just to be short...

You husband has been and is working very hard to be the best man, husband, and father he can be. You and your family have been his motivator, to reach out and search for ways to make him a better person. So he can create an environment where you all can flourish around him. If more men emulated him, there would be less members here. I envy you, as I only know this man on this digital screen. 

BTW, We also know you have had a part in his success too.


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## bagdon

anchorwatch said:


> Bagdon, if you don't mind?
> 
> 
> Mrs. Bagdon,
> 
> Let me be the first to welcome you!
> 
> Just to be short...
> 
> You husband has been and is working very hard to be the best man, husband, and father he can be. You and your family have been his motivator, to reach out and search for ways to make him a better person. So he can create an environment where you all can flourish around him. If more men emulated him, there would be less members here. I envy you, as I only know this man on this digital screen.
> 
> BTW, We also know you have had a part in his success too.


Thanks, yet again sir! It was showing another thread I was reading but I'm sure if she's been here she's found me by now...my TAM name isn't far from my real name.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bagdon said:


> Thanks, yet again sir! It was showing another thread I was reading but I'm sure if she's been here she's found me by now...my TAM name isn't far from my real name.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would not worry about it Bagdon. You did not really say anything here you would not say to her face. It was all about saving your relationship, your family, your marriage. No worries.


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## doubletrouble

If she would read this whole thread she could understand the upset and roller coaster ride you've been on throughout all this. And most mature people committed to a loving relationship would empathize with you. Her being the source of your angst all this time, maybe she can make corrective actions that stay in place. It's a lifelong project, being in a committed relationship. everyone has to make adjustments along the way. You have.


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## manticore

bagdon said:


> We have both fallen off the wagon hard with our physical fitness and have vowed to begin anew...together this time. We joked about sex being one of our "work out" techniques.


so happy for you man, is good to see a marriage being healed before reaching her breaking point, instead of trying to put the shattered pieces together.

about the sex thing, is good she is opening to you and being reciprocate, I hope the "O" thing is no longer and Issue, but if it is, you can use the postures with deeper penetration or more clit stimulation, (scissors or missionary woman) there are alot of information in the net.

BTW if she finds about TAM, explain her that you are not manipulating her, but learning how to improve your marriage for a better life, you never know how people can interprete external influences.


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## Anon Pink

Hey Bagdon, I've read a lot of this thread, though not the while thing. I just wanted to say congrats for getting your marriage back together! Also, you never posted anything about your Retrovaille weekend. I've heard about those workshops and was very interested in hearing what you thought about it.


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## LongWalk

Since your wife is into writing, she doesn't mind that you wrote your way out of a bad place and helped her along the way.


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## bagdon

Anon Pink said:


> Hey Bagdon, I've read a lot of this thread, though not the while thing. I just wanted to say congrats for getting your marriage back together! Also, you never posted anything about your Retrovaille weekend. I've heard about those workshops and was very interested in hearing what you thought about it.


Hi Anon, we have yet to attend a retrouvaille weekend. Things got crazy, schedule wise with the kids, new schools etc. we're still planning on going next year. The retrouvaille reps were really great during the phone interviews and they have kept in touch with us via email. 
Meanwhile, our relationship is still blossoming along with our children...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fordsvt

Wow what a great inspirational story.....excellent and thanks for sharing. Hope mine ends up this way too....


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## Moovers

bagdon said:


> I confess, I read my wife's diary. I wished I hadn't. Our 15th anniversary was May 16th; for over a month now I have made a concerted effort to do my part in making our marriage better. On Monday, June 3rd I read a portion of her diary that stated "w/a man I don't love." I'm devastated! What, if anything, can I do now? I want our marriage to survive and thrive. I wish I hadn't read it.



I sometimes write a diary/ it is more like journal though, what I need to do, and so on. If it is about feelings than 90% of the time it is about something I am upset about. I don't go writing in there how happy I am and in love, which is most of the time. 

I write in my native language my H doesn't speak so that solves that  He has tried to read it and if it was in English I know he would read it. It is just natural, I would probably read his too if he had one unless he would ask me not to.

I have written a letter (to my 30 year old self) where I said I wouldn't be surprised If my future me wasn't married anymore. It was after a major fight we had, that is in past now and the issue solved. 

My advice to you, realize that woman write when sad and don't always mean it. I have crossed out all the bad things I have written in anger and sadness, BC I don't feel that way anymore. 

my 2 cents


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## Betrayedone

wow.....I need a cigarette and I don't even smoke! I said a prayer last night about being grateful for your success. I wish I was even in a position to even have a chance to put things right between us but she is 4 states away and papers are in the pipeline and I have gone no contact which really means you can't fix anything. I'm REALLY happy for your whole family, Bags. D


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## Heartbroken84

Excellent thread - hope things are still going well for you Bagdon


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## HangingOnHope

Hey Bagdon...
Are things still going well? Just curious..I hope so!


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## LongWalk

Perhaps you could help RoadScholar? An interesting thread.


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## bagdon

My Wife's Birthday Card to me (November 27, 2014):
"To My Hubby ----
Sometimes I'm Absentminded, Sometimes I'm Kind of cross, Sometimes I may be act as if I think that I'm the boss...Sometimes I'm kind of Quiet, Especially when I'm Worried - Sometimes I'm just plain Stubborn when I think I'm being Hurried...Sometimes I act a little Spoiled, Sometimes I'm Moody too --- But there's one thing I always am - and that's IN LOVE WITH YOU! Happy Birthday!"

Then she hand writes -- 'Nuff said? Love Mrs Bagdon'


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## tom67

bagdon said:


> My Wife's Birthday Card to me (November 27, 2014):
> "To My Hubby ----
> Sometimes I'm Absentminded, Sometimes I'm Kind of cross, Sometimes I may be act as if I think that I'm the boss...Sometimes I'm kind of Quiet, Especially when I'm Worried - Sometimes I'm just plain Stubborn when I think I'm being Hurried...Sometimes I act a little Spoiled, Sometimes I'm Moody too --- But there's one thing I always am - and that's IN LOVE WITH YOU! Happy Birthday!"
> 
> Then she hand writes -- 'Nuff said? Love Mrs Bagdon'


Nice.:smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## LongWalk

How are you doing, Bagdon? You are not forgotten.


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