# Is reconciliation REALLY possible??



## 71bgol

So it's been 8 months since my wife had a 1 month affair with a lesbian coworker. She has been remorseful more then I could ever expect anyone to be. It makes me wonder how the hell she did it in the first place. 

We all know during affairs there are a lot of lies told and a lot of deception. Can a relationship really come back from such things?? I'm really struggling to respect my wife again. I don't feel as if I'm in love with her anymore. How do you love someone again after they have lied to your face knowing they are hurting you. 

Every since the affair she has been the one chasing me. Doing everything she can to win me back and gain my trust. She even passed a polygraph (reference original thread). The problem is, to me, she just feels like a fun roommate that I have sex with. The loving feeling is gone for me. It makes me feel bad because she desperately wants me to love her again. She says it was a selfish curiosity that got out of control and she loved me the whole time. 

When is enough, enough? Is 8 months to early to be back in love with my wife. You only live once. It's hard to imagine never speaking to her again and I would miss her, but, I want to be happy.


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## sokillme

It seems to be for some but not others. I am like you, to me it is the way the cheating would change my perception of my wife. Loyalty is a big part of love, and even more, respect for a person. Especially the person I am married to. If I am going to expend the emotional energy necessary with being married to you, I just have to respect you and pretty highly in relation to the other people in my life. The other thing is I would just value her a lot less, because part of her value to me is as my partner. A partner who can lie to you isn't worth much, because, as well know life is hard. You shouldn't feel guilty for feeling this way. You had an agreement and she broke it. What is keeping you their? Kids? 

How about divorcing her and letting her compete. Maybe your issue is the lack of consequences. Since you are starting over why not start over for real let her compete maybe you will find she IS the best choice for you. Maybe not. 

I see from your post she basically always professed to loving you and all that even during the affair. That's the thing with this, how much is her love worth if in the middle of it she can sneak around and lie to your face. By the way one of my posts at the end of your thread on this talks about you ending up exactly where you are here with this question. I think for me and a lot of people it's hard to be married to a phony.


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## 2ntnuf

Then be happy. Remove what is in the way of that. So far:

~your wife's desire to be with women
>----------incompatible, she will want it again because she is bisexual 
~your desire to be with only her



~your ability to forgive her and stay
>------you can't stay, but sounds like you can have fun with her outside of the marriage
~your ability to forgive her and start fresh



If you are both young and there are no children, it's a simple decision. Go find your happiness. This will just be conflict with who you really are inside.


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## Emerging Buddhist

How she did it in the first place is her attachment to a desire overrode her love for herself, and in that time ultimately for you too because you don't do those things to people you love.

I'd say trust is the keyword here...

If you don't trust her, you will struggle with love... when that happens, doubt suppresses love and walls it out.

They say a minimum of 2 years... a long process for some.

I would say it is the trust that those look for and evaluate the most in that timeframe.

She can be remorseful and feel shame, thus rebuild her own love and respect for herself... as hard as she tries, she cannot rebuild yours, only offer you actions of what is hopefully sincere penance as that is your choice to make whether you accept them.

Or choose not to...

What would be your reasons to choose not to rebuild your love and respect for her?

Whatever you decide, be open with her.


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## oldshirt

One of the risks that a WS takes when they cheat is that they may permanently damage or even destroy the love and respect that their BS had for them.

This is not even a choice for the BS. BS don't really choose how they feel towards the WS after an affair - it just is what it is. 

You are not obligated to love and admire and respect your WW after she has done this. ......... even if a part of you wants to. 

And I really don't think there can be any timelines or deadlines placed on it either way. 

Some BS's finally realize they can't do it anymore after many years or even decades. 

This going to be graphic but in many ways it is like if you have a nice big cake or pie sitting on the table just for you. Then someone else comes along and takes a great big ol' dump right in the middle of it. A great big old dookey with peanuts and kernels of corn and everything. 

You can pick up the turd and toss it away and you can dig out all of the cake that the turd touched; and you can even try to smooth it all over with extra frosting and cake decorations.......... but no matter how much it has been spackled over and refrosted, do you still want to eat any of it????


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## sokillme

I would like to add one more thing. You will see a lot of advice that will be about what your WW did and what she is doing now. All of that is good. However when it comes to advice about this I think most of these sites let down the BS down. That is because, to my mind, the most important question the BS should ask themselves is, what will the quality of my life be if I stay or go. Now I can understand compromising your quality of life for your kids, but then you should come to terms with the fact that that is what you are doing. It kind of changes your mission, there is also and end point then in my mind, which I think you can use to have some hope. 

I also want to say that, in my mind, this is unique to a situation only when the spouse has broken their vows, that is because the way I see it is when the vow is broken the contract is void. Hence the sacrificial love that is required in marriage at many times doesn't really come into play anymore. If no vow is broken it's up to the unhappy spouse to push to get both of you to work on it. This is not the case here, you have no obligation to fix anything. Most importantly you shouldn't feel guilty about that. 

This is one of the major things that the WS usually forgets (or really takes for granted) when they think they can cheat and the BS will take them back. In my mind at least, once they cheat they don't have a spouse anymore. This also plays into the idea that the marriage is dead and you have a new marriage. No one says you have to have a new marriage. I wish this was how everyone thought about this. I think it would change some casual cheaters mind. At the very least they may get an better idea of what they are really risking. It's not that the marriage might be over, it's that there is no choice, it is over right when the deal is done. I think marriage contracts should be mandatory voided when there is infidelity, or at the very least you should have the right to sue to make it so. I know I have told my wife this is how I think. Food for thought. Again you have not obligation to someone you are not married to anymore. Maybe you should divorce her to make the legal terms match the reality. 

Anyway the overall point is you only get one life, and time is finite. So OP what is and will be the quality of your life, physically, emotionally, financially, staying with this woman? Do you thing you will have a better one leaving?


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## arbitrator

*Reconcilliation is definitely possible, but it does cause the BS to grow eyes in the back of their head!

Cheating on the BS and then asking for reconciliation is a whole lot like being put on a regimen of “crap sandwiches,” largely keeping in mind that the more bread one is served, the less like crap it’s going to taste like! 

But in any event, just like infidelity, no matter how much bread, honey, sugar, and whipped cream that you adorn it with, it’s still going to taste exactly like crap! *


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## 2ntnuf

The only thing about the remorse and shame is, most here that I've seen, had to build that remorse in their spouse with some punishing talk and action. 

But, the punishment wasn't all for the WS. It really punished the FS, too. 

Won't that build resentment in the WS and then come out later? 

Seems self-defeating.


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## 71bgol

That's exactly what I Have been thinking about. What will my quality of life be from here on out. I still have emotions towards the whole thing. I still get mad at times and she can sense it even though I hold it in. I still get a sense of shock as well from time to time. 

Even though I don't know if I'm in love with her it's hard to picture my life without her. I know I would get over it in time if I did end it. We do NOT have kids together, but are a blended family. We do make good money together, and for the most part have built a life together. She is open to signing a post-nuptial, which my lawyer is working on now. 

I'm a healthy in shape 36 year old. I have never had problems meeting women, especially in my line of work. I'm just trying to decide if I want to stay or could be happy with someone that has cheated. there are thousands of other women out there that haven't cheated on me and never would. 

Is the short term pain of divorce worth the long term gain of finding someone and starting fresh. 

Is the short term pain and work of trying to reconcile with someone I once loved dearly worth it? I feel like I need to establish a timeline. If it has gone as far as two years post affair and I still feel this way, it needs to end. I know I don't want to feel this way forever.


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## sokillme

71bgol said:


> That's exactly what I Have been thinking about. What will my quality of life be from here on out. I still have emotions towards the whole thing. I still get mad at times and she can sense it even though I hold it in. I still get a sense of shock as well from time to time.
> 
> Even though I don't know if I'm in love with her it's hard to picture my life without her. I know I would get over it in time if I did end it. We do NOT have kids together, but are a blended family. We do make good money together, and for the most part have built a life together. She is open to signing a post-nuptial, which my lawyer is working on now.
> 
> I'm a healthy in shape 36 year old. I have never had problems meeting women, especially in my line of work. I'm just trying to decide if I want to stay or could be happy with someone that has cheated. there are thousands of other women out there that haven't cheated on me and never would.
> 
> Is the short term pain of divorce worth the long term gain of finding someone and starting fresh.
> 
> Is the short term pain and work of trying to reconcile with someone I once loved dearly worth it? I feel like I need to establish a timeline. If it has gone as far as two years post affair and I still feel this way, it needs to end. I know I don't want to feel this way forever.



Look I think it is pretty clear what I think from my posting history. However 8 months is a short period of time to decided if you can get over it. I mean if you are going to try to R you should give it a year I think.

Couple things, you say you have emotions about it. Have you let it out, I mean really confronted her with them. You may feel better if you do. Like "How the hell could you do this when you know how it feels!", "Why really, why should I waste my time on you when you can do this out of pure selfishness?", "How do I know the YOU know you are just not Gay.", "I have to be honest, why should I stay with someone who could do this just because they got carried away?", "would you stay?" I mean have you had those kind of no holds barred, say what you feel conversations? I think if you haven't you should even if you don't stay. Both of you would probably benefit from it. I am of the opinion that holding on to this stuff makes it worse. I once again is something that the affair has taken away from you, which is the ability to be real. 

As far as the money you can meat someone else with money. I DO think a timeline makes sense. If I were you I would not couch or protect her from exactly what you feel. I don't mean be mean, but I think I would say, "I don't think I am in love with you anymore, and if I still feel this way a year from now I think it's best for both of us if I move on. You deserve someone who loves you, and hey maybe the pool woman will still be single." Nah I wouldn't say the last part, though knowing me I probably would stay stuff like that a lot actually. Another reason why I would not be the right person to try to R with.

If you are not just being totally honest and open even if it is painful for her you should. She deserves a chance to know what she is up against, and you need to take full control of your life, even if that is painful for her. I know for me not being able to be honest about the way I feel especially when I would feel taken advantage of would contribute to me feeling like the quality of my life was not what it should be. You can change that.

By the way after reading both your thread you really did get stuck with the low end of quality pool when it comes to women. If you do move on it might make sense to check your picker. Cheated on twice in a row sucks.


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## Diana7

This is why adultery is so very serious because it destroys the trust and respect and the marriage as it was completely. I know some who do seem to have made it work many years later, and some who just couldn't carry on in the marriage. I am not sure that I could ever trust again, and without trust what is there?

Only you know if this is what you want, but you also have children in this family who have presumably already been through marriage break ups, so another one will be very hard for them.

Maybe give it more time, but you must accept that it will never be the same as before.


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## 71bgol

sokillme said:


> Look I think it is pretty clear what I think from my posting history. However 8 months is a short period of time to decided if you can get over it. I mean if you are going to try to R you should give it a year I think.
> 
> Couple things, you say you have emotions about it. Have you let it out, I mean really confronted her with them. You may feel better if you do. Like "How the hell could you do this when you know how it feels!", "Why really, why should I waste my time on you when you can do this out of pure selfishness?", "How do I know the YOU know you are just not Gay.", "I have to be honest, why should I stay with someone who could do this just because they got carried away?", "would you stay?" I mean have you had those kind of no holds barred, say what you feel conversations? I think if you haven't you should even if you don't stay. Both of you would probably benefit from it. I am of the opinion that holding on to this stuff makes it worse. I once again is something that the affair has taken away from you, which is the ability to be real.
> 
> As far as the money you can meat someone else with money. I DO think a timeline makes sense. If I were you I would not couch or protect her from exactly what you feel. I don't mean be mean, but I think I would say, "I don't think I am in love with you anymore, and if I still feel this way a year from now I think it's best for both of us if I move on. You deserve someone who loves you, and hey maybe the pool woman will still be single." Nah I wouldn't say the last part, though knowing me I probably would stay stuff like that a lot actually. Another reason why I would not be the right person to try to R with.
> 
> If you are not just being totally honest and open even if it is painful for her you should. She deserves a chance to know what she is up against, and you need to take full control of your life, even if that is painful for her. I know for me not being able to be honest about the way I feel especially when I would feel taken advantage of would contribute to me feeling like the quality of my life was not what it should be. You can change that.
> 
> By the way after reading both your thread you really did get stuck with the low end of quality pool when it comes to women. If you do move on it might make sense to check your picker. Cheated on twice in a row sucks.


I have pretty much said word for word all of that on numerous occasions. I'm not the type to hold my tongue when I need to get something out. I do regret not getting more upset when it first came out, and even told her that. I think I was in shock. I still kicked her out. I almost wish I wouldn't have gave her immediate consequences and just locked her out with a bag of clothes on the porch. I would have liked to see if she would have went running to the lesbian. The consequences worked tho. Polygraph confirms she hasn't talked to her since that day. 
One thing for sure that would help is if I knew she wasn't a lesbian and still wanting to be with women. She swears up and down she's not, and that if she was she would come out. She said she wouldn't want to be miserable in a straight marriage, and wouldn't work this hard to save ours. 

I think I'm gong to say 18 months actually.


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## TAMAT

71bgol,

One thing which is going to keep you triggered as long as it goes on, is that your WW still works with the OW and likely sees her every so often.

Can you file a complaint with HR and get the OW fired or apply some pressure on the OW to get her to quit?

Have you confronted or exposed the OW?

Do you have the full story about your WWs past, she may have lied about her marriage and she may have been the one cheating and not her husband. Cheaters sometimes become very good at rewriting history. 

Has she had same sex relations in the past? She should be willing to provide you with historical honesty.

Good work on getting the polygraph, however given how early in your marriage this occurred it may be best just to divorce, get the postnup first.

Tamat


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## GusPolinski

Is she still working with her affair partner?


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## ReturntoZero

GusPolinski said:


> Is she still working with her affair partner?


Ending that HAS to be part of any real reconciliation.


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## GusPolinski

ReturntoZero said:


> Ending that HAS to be part of any real reconciliation.


Yep.

Non-negotiable.


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## FeministInPink

For some people it's possible, for some people it's not. You never really know which side you fall on until it happens to you.

What you have working in your favor is that she remorseful, and she wants to reconcile. That's usually the biggest stumbling block to reconciliation.

Are you guys in counseling? Are YOU in counseling? You may need a professional to help you guys work through this, and to help you work through these emotions. It sounds like right now, you are on an emotional loop that you can't get off, and you need assistance with that.

The good thing is that feeling/emotions are temporary, and either they fade or you work through them and they are replaced by something else.

But that's also a bad thing, because the love emotion on your end may be gone for good. But a therapist can help with this, too--a therapist can walk you through the process of re-building love and rebuilding trust. You need both. I think you're having a hard time feeling any love for her right now, because all the trust has eroded from your relationship. If you can find trust again, I think you can find love again. And that takes TIME. And it takes longer if you're doing it without the help of a professional 

I think a time frame is good. Say, 1 yr working with a therapist. Everything doesn't need to be hunky dory by the end of the year, but you at least have to see some progress, and know that you're on the right track. 

And yes, your wife needs to find a new job so she is no longer working with the AP, unless the AP has moved on to another position. You won't be able to re-establish trust knowing that they still see one another. In fact, this might be the big stumbling block for you right now.


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## 71bgol

FeministInPink said:


> For some people it's possible, for some people it's not. You never really know which side you fall on until it happens to you.
> 
> What you have working in your favor is that she remorseful, and she wants to reconcile. That's usually the biggest stumbling block to reconciliation.
> 
> Are you guys in counseling? Are YOU in counseling? You may need a professional to help you guys work through this, and to help you work through these emotions. It sounds like right now, you are on an emotional loop that you can't get off, and you need assistance with that.
> 
> The good thing is that feeling/emotions are temporary, and either they fade or you work through them and they are replaced by something else.
> 
> But that's also a bad thing, because the love emotion on your end may be gone for good. But a therapist can help with this, too--a therapist can walk you through the process of re-building love and rebuilding trust. You need both. I think you're having a hard time feeling any love for her right now, because all the trust has eroded from your relationship. If you can find trust again, I think you can find love again. And that takes TIME. And it takes longer if you're doing it without the help of a professional
> 
> I think a time frame is good. Say, 1 yr working with a therapist. Everything doesn't need to be hunky dory by the end of the year, but you at least have to see some progress, and know that you're on the right track.
> 
> And yes, your wife needs to find a new job so she is no longer working with the AP, unless the AP has moved on to another position. You won't be able to re-establish trust knowing that they still see one another. In fact, this might be the big stumbling block for you right now.


We have been seeing a counselor the whiole time. It has got us to this point so far. I was done with the marriage upon initial discovery. I am not seeeking individual counseling, although I have been contemplating it. I told her last night I might do some solo counseling, she thought it was a good idea. Should I see the same counselor??

Yes, she still works with this women. They have very little contact, but she does see her. She texts me every time they have to communicate. I always thought I was fine with it, and convinced myself it was worth it because of the money. I'm not the jealous type at all, and figured I can't control her behavior. But, I think you guys are right. She needs to stop seeing her for me to completely move on and build trust again. She has offered many times to quit, so it's not something that will be an issue. She's honestly being overpaid right now for what she does and probably won't make as much somewhere else. This is why I've been hesitant on telling her to quit. We are close to being debt free. I guess we can wait a little longer.

I'm just worried if she quits and it doesn't help then we will be in a worse spot. I thought I'd feel a lot better after the polygraph. It eliminated some doubts, but didn't bring me any closer to her in the love department..


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## ReturntoZero

71bgol said:


> We have been seeing a counselor the whiole time. It has got us to this point so far. I was done with the marriage upon initial discovery. I am not seeeking individual counseling, although I have been contemplating it. I told her last night I might do some solo counseling, she thought it was a good idea. Should I see the same counselor??
> 
> Yes, she still works with this women. They have very little contact, but she does see her. She texts me every time they have to communicate. I always thought I was fine with it, and convinced myself it was worth it because of the money. I'm not the jealous type at all, and figured I can't control her behavior. But, I think you guys are right. She needs to stop seeing her for me to completely move on and build trust again. She has offered many times to quit, so it's not something that will be an issue. She's honestly being overpaid right now for what she does and probably won't make as much somewhere else. This is why I've been hesitant on telling her to quit. We are close to being debt free. I guess we can wait a little longer.
> 
> I'm just worried if she quits and it doesn't help then we will be in a worse spot. I thought I'd feel a lot better after the polygraph. It eliminated some doubts, but didn't bring me any closer to her in the love department..


I'd start with a new one. But, I would definitely do it.


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## TAMAT

71bgol,

Can you report this to personnel to get the OW fired, has the affair been exposed at work, getting rid of the OW would allow you to persevere your finances while working to get out of debt and then divorcing.

Tamat


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## aine

71bgol said:


> So it's been 8 months since my wife had a 1 month affair with a lesbian coworker. She has been remorseful more then I could ever expect anyone to be. It makes me wonder how the hell she did it in the first place.
> 
> We all know during affairs there are a lot of lies told and a lot of deception. Can a relationship really come back from such things?? I'm really struggling to respect my wife again. I don't feel as if I'm in love with her anymore. How do you love someone again after they have lied to your face knowing they are hurting you.
> 
> Every since the affair she has been the one chasing me. Doing everything she can to win me back and gain my trust. She even passed a polygraph (reference original thread). The problem is, to me, she just feels like a fun roommate that I have sex with. The loving feeling is gone for me. It makes me feel bad because she desperately wants me to love her again. She says it was a selfish curiosity that got out of control and she loved me the whole time.
> 
> When is enough, enough? Is 8 months to early to be back in love with my wife. You only live once. It's hard to imagine never speaking to her again and I would miss her, but, I want to be happy.


8 months is too short, it may take years to have that loving feeling and it will never be the same. You have to build a new marriage relationship and part of you will always be reserved.


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## 71bgol

TAMAT said:


> 71bgol,
> 
> Can you report this to personnel to get the OW fired, has the affair been exposed at work, getting rid of the OW would allow you to persevere your finances while working to get out of debt and then divorcing.
> 
> Tamat


It's a dental office. They have three locations. My wife stays in one location. The Lesbian rotates with her doctor and is there 2 days a week. So they only work together on those days. My wife is in the front office, Lesbian is an assistant. 

Im not sure how I would get the Lesbian fired over my wife. Seems like they would let both of them go if anything. When it first came out the lesbians live in girlfriend was going to slip a copy of the texts between them under the door to get them both fired. I had to talk her out of it. They broke up when it came out. So she wanted to screw her over, understandably.


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## marriageontherocks2

The affair is a red pill of sorts, it wakes you from your naivety that your wife is this pure innocent wonderful person, and can actually be a cold and manipulative dishonest monster. If you reconcile, or spilt, you're forever changed, and will never trust anyone the way you trusted your wife before the affair. That reality is gone forever, and any new partner will get a different you, a you who ensures that they're not gut punched like that again.


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## ReturntoZero

marriageontherocks2 said:


> The affair is a red pill of sorts, it wakes you from your naivety that your wife is this pure innocent wonderful person, and can actually be a cold and manipulative dishonest monster. If you reconcile, or spilt, you're forever changed, and will never trust anyone the way you trusted your wife before the affair. That reality is gone forever, and any new partner will get a different you, a you who ensures that they're not gut punched like that again.


There was a day when I was forced to realize my wife was full of ****.

My view of her has never been the same, but I've been much happier overall.


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## ButtPunch

ReturntoZero said:


> There was a day when I was forced to realize my wife was full of ****.
> 
> My view of her has never been the same, but I've been much happier overall.


I have been reconciled more than five years.

It will never be like it was.

Sometimes that's a good thing.


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## ButtPunch

marriageontherocks2 said:


> The affair is a red pill of sorts, it wakes you from your naivety that your wife is this pure innocent wonderful person, and can actually be a cold and manipulative dishonest monster. If you reconcile, or spilt, you're forever changed, and will never trust anyone the way you trusted your wife before the affair. That reality is gone forever, and any new partner will get a different you, a you who ensures that they're not *gut punched* like that again.


What a wonderful choice of words. 

Couldn't describe it any better.


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## ReturntoZero

ButtPunch said:


> I have been reconciled more than five years.
> 
> It will never be like it was.
> 
> Sometimes that's a good thing.


She never wanted to be on the pedestal anyway.


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## ButtPunch

71bgol said:


> It's a dental office. They have three locations. My wife stays in one location. The Lesbian rotates with her doctor and is there 2 days a week. So they only work together on those days. My wife is in the front office, Lesbian is an assistant.
> 
> Im not sure how I would get the Lesbian fired over my wife. Seems like they would let both of them go if anything. When it first came out the lesbians live in girlfriend was going to slip a copy of the texts between them under the door to get them both fired. I had to talk her out of it. They broke up when it came out. So she wanted to screw her over, understandably.


No his wife needs to quit on her own free will.


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## GusPolinski

ButtPunch said:


> No his wife needs to quit on her own free will.


Exactly correct.

Either she gets a new job or no, reconciliation can’t work long term.

Can’t have it both ways (LOLOLOLOL).


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## FeministInPink

71bgol said:


> We have been seeing a counselor the whiole time. It has got us to this point so far. I was done with the marriage upon initial discovery. I am not seeeking individual counseling, although I have been contemplating it. I told her last night I might do some solo counseling, she thought it was a good idea. Should I see the same counselor??
> 
> Yes, she still works with this women. They have very little contact, but she does see her. She texts me every time they have to communicate. I always thought I was fine with it, and convinced myself it was worth it because of the money. I'm not the jealous type at all, and figured I can't control her behavior. But, I think you guys are right. She needs to stop seeing her for me to completely move on and build trust again. She has offered many times to quit, so it's not something that will be an issue. She's honestly being overpaid right now for what she does and probably won't make as much somewhere else. This is why I've been hesitant on telling her to quit. We are close to being debt free. I guess we can wait a little longer.
> 
> I'm just worried if she quits and it doesn't help then we will be in a worse spot. I thought I'd feel a lot better after the polygraph. It eliminated some doubts, but didn't bring me any closer to her in the love department..


I'm not sure, but I think most people recommend going to a different counselor for the IC? On one hand, I think it's good to have someone who knows what's going on in the MC as well, but on the other hand, it's good to have someone whose primary concern is you, and not the marriage. I'd love to hear what other people have to say about it.

How soon can she quit/change jobs? If she speaks confidentially to one of the practice partners (with whom she has the best relationship), they might be able to help her find another position quietly and without much fuss. Moving into a different position, away from the AP, I think will do wonders for you. Even though she is being transparent, there's likely always going to be a little part of you that is suspicious.


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## ReturntoZero

FeministInPink said:


> I'm not sure, but I think most people recommend going to a different counselor for the IC? On one hand, I think it's good to have someone who knows what's going on in the MC as well, but on the other hand, it's good to have someone whose primary concern is you, and not the marriage. I'd love to hear what other people have to say about it.
> 
> How soon can she quit/change jobs? If she speaks confidentially to one of the practice partners (with whom she has the best relationship), they might be able to help her find another position quietly and without much fuss. Moving into a different position, away from the AP, I think will do wonders for you. Even though she is being transparent, there's likely always going to be a little part of you that is suspicious.


I always recommend a new one - unless the one you had was simply outstanding.

People are human. Counselors form their own opinions of what's going on and who is to blame.

You may make tremendous personal growth over months and a new counselor wouldn't have the baggage of knowing how you "used to be".


----------



## NickyT

We all make our own choices as to where are limits are. I can say for myself, 8 months was not enough to regain the trust. 7 years and there are days I still wonder. 

The bible allows divorce under one circumstance: infidelity. Now you know why. What you are doing is very hard.


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## Herschel

I am in the belief that reconciliation is not possible after an affair.

First, the idea is that you have to get back to where you were before, which is impossible since that place never existed. Maybe like years before, but when did the crack begin? You have to backtrack ALL the way to there, which given the circumstances, isn't possible.

Second, you have to forgive and try to forget. That alone is almost impossible.

Third, your spouse has to not only be remorseful, but they have to forgive themselves and try to forget. At what point should that occur? They look at you and feel disappointment in themselves, assuming they want to reconcile.

Fourth, mental images suck.

Lastly, and maybe even most importantly, all of the issues leading up to the affair have to be resolved somehow. Otherwise, where are you two?

It sucks, but life has to move on. I don't see anyone being happier trying to resolve than they would finding someone else that never did this originally (and that's on both sides). To me, reconciliation is living a lie.


----------



## Diana7

71bgol said:


> We have been seeing a counselor the whiole time. It has got us to this point so far. I was done with the marriage upon initial discovery. I am not seeeking individual counseling, although I have been contemplating it. I told her last night I might do some solo counseling, she thought it was a good idea. Should I see the same counselor??
> 
> Yes, she still works with this women. They have very little contact, but she does see her. She texts me every time they have to communicate. I always thought I was fine with it, and convinced myself it was worth it because of the money. I'm not the jealous type at all, and figured I can't control her behavior. But, I think you guys are right. She needs to stop seeing her for me to completely move on and build trust again. She has offered many times to quit, so it's not something that will be an issue. She's honestly being overpaid right now for what she does and probably won't make as much somewhere else. This is why I've been hesitant on telling her to quit. We are close to being debt free. I guess we can wait a little longer.
> 
> I'm just worried if she quits and it doesn't help then we will be in a worse spot. I thought I'd feel a lot better after the polygraph. It eliminated some doubts, but didn't bring me any closer to her in the love department..


Her leaving the job would have been my very first and non negotiable request.


----------



## Diana7

NickyT said:


> We all make our own choices as to where are limits are. I can say for myself, 8 months was not enough to regain the trust. 7 years and there are days I still wonder.
> 
> The bible allows divorce under one circumstance: infidelity. Now you know why. What you are doing is very hard.


I am not sure I could ever trust again. I am also not sure that I could ever have sex with them again. As you say, 8 months is nothing. It will take years to trust again if you ever really can. 
Yes I would try and forgive for my own mental health, but forgiveness and reconciling are different things. What I do know is that it would never ever be the same. Something precious and special has been lost. Faithfulness and intimacy between the two of you are vital for a good marriage.


----------



## 71bgol

Diana7 said:


> I am not sure I could ever trust again. I am also not sure that I could ever have sex with them again. As you say, 8 months is nothing. It will take years to trust again if you ever really can.
> Yes I would try and forgive for my own mental health, but forgiveness and reconciling are different things. What I do know is that it would never ever be the same. Something precious and special has been lost. Faithfulness and intimacy between the two of you are vital for a good marriage.


Honestly, I would not even be trying if it was a man she had her affair with. Especially if it got sexual. I would not be able to have sex with her again. I don't have the mental disgust of it being a man. It's just more of the emotional side that hurts. The fact she put herself out there for somebody else. Not to mention the lies and deceit. 

It just comes down to respect. I don't know if I will ever have the same respect for her. In fact I know I probably won't. 

I think I'm just wondering if I want to invest the time and energy to see if we possibly could get back to a good spot. I'm scared to invest 2 to 3 years of my life on reconciliation that's going to possibly end in divorce.

I mean, has anyone on here read a story of somebody that as happy, or happier after an affair? It always seems like people that reconcile are still miserable. Like a stated tolerable level of misery.


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## katies

I'm not miserable. We both had affairs. I can't speak for him but he seems very happy. I'm glad we stayed together. We have a great life together. I think because we had 25 good years and 4 weeks each of being an alien, we focused on the 25 years. Forgiveness and love are the easy parts. Trust is harder. I'll never trust him again 100%. But I wouldn't trust anyone with that again. There are too many assets that outweigh the liabilities. 

JMO.


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## TAMAT

71bgol,

There is another issue here and that is that affairs are addictions similar to drugs or alcohol and they change a cheaters relationship to their affair partner forever, there is no going back to being friends. The emotions experienced during an affair are so intense they don't diminish until a person dies or goes senile.

Having your WW seeing the OW is like an alcoholic visiting a bar to "drink soda".

Do you feel your WW was ever able to kiss you with real passion after her affair, I know with my W after her affair before marriage kissing never came back, and then someday turned into decades.

Have your WW tested for STDs btw it sounds like the OW is promiscuous and HPV can cause oral cancers from kissing.

HPV / Oral Cancer Facts - The Oral Cancer Foundation

Tamat


----------



## sokillme

71bgol said:


> Honestly, I would not even be trying if it was a man she had her affair with. Especially if it got sexual. I would not be able to have sex with her again. I don't have the mental disgust of it being a man. It's just more of the emotional side that hurts. The fact she put herself out there for somebody else. Not to mention the lies and deceit.
> 
> It just comes down to respect. I don't know if I will ever have the same respect for her. In fact I know I probably won't.
> 
> I think I'm just wondering if I want to invest the time and energy to see if we possibly could get back to a good spot. I'm scared to invest 2 to 3 years of my life on reconciliation that's going to possibly end in divorce.
> 
> I mean, has anyone on here read a story of somebody that as happy, or happier after an affair? It always seems like people that reconcile are still miserable. Like a stated tolerable level of misery.


I have read those stories but usually it is with a marriage that was very dysfunctional and both sides were very unhappy. So yes compared to that the marriage is better. If even just one side was happy and got blindsided I think it is very hard. Of the ones I have read were the person was blindsided, those are very rare, and maybe 1 out of the 5 you hear I actually believe. Most of the time it seems the ones who are saying they are so happy now protest too much. A lot of times it seems like their whole married life still revolved around the affair in some way. 

Also I am not sure your mindset is the kind that can do it. I get it because I have the same mindset. It's hard to love someone you don't really respect, and it's hard to respect someone who acts like a sex junky. Also your marriage is young so you don't have so much time cost invested. Finally you have already gone through this once so you know you can survive. Sorry that is just how I feel.


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## marriageontherocks2

I really regret "reconciling". I shouldn't have done it, I haven't respected myself one day since and it has led to depression and anxiety for me that I'm just now trying to fix. It's much easier to make a clean and amicable break and start over with someone where they haven't destroyed your trust in them. But even then you'll never fully trust anyone after her affair so who knows.

I feel like I wasted a large portion of my life by reconciling with someone I shouldn't have. Now at 40 and old with tons of debt together, it seems too difficult to leave. If you "can" make a clean break now, I would highly, highly, recommend it.


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## sokillme

ReturntoZero said:


> She never wanted to be on the pedestal anyway.


Boy have are expectations been lowered when expecting your spouse to be faithful is putting them on a pedestal. :frown2:


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## Diana7

71bgol said:


> Honestly, I would not even be trying if it was a man she had her affair with. Especially if it got sexual. I would not be able to have sex with her again. I don't have the mental disgust of it being a man. It's just more of the emotional side that hurts. The fact she put herself out there for somebody else. Not to mention the lies and deceit.
> 
> It just comes down to respect. I don't know if I will ever have the same respect for her. In fact I know I probably won't.
> 
> I think I'm just wondering if I want to invest the time and energy to see if we possibly could get back to a good spot. I'm scared to invest 2 to 3 years of my life on reconciliation that's going to possibly end in divorce.
> 
> I mean, has anyone on here read a story of somebody that as happy, or happier after an affair? It always seems like people that reconcile are still miserable. Like a stated tolerable level of misery.


How is it any better because it was a woman?
I would be just as devastated if it was a man or woman. 

I do know a few couples who stayed together, but its hard to tell if they are happy. People can put on a front. Most couples I know where there was cheating are now divorced. 
For me it would never be the same, and would not be as good no matter what. Something important has been lost. Its up to you if you can live with what was lost. Grieve for that, and make something out of what is left.


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## sokillme

Diana7 said:


> How is it any better because it was a woman?
> I would be just as devastated if it was a man or woman.
> 
> I do know a few couples who stayed together, but its hard to tell if they are happy. People can put on a front. Most couples I know where there was cheating are now divorced.
> For me it would never be the same, and would not be as good no matter what. Something important has been lost. Its up to you if you can live with what was lost. Grieve for that, and make something out of what is left.


The only difference I could see is there wouldn't be a inevitable size comparison which for a man is just plain physical relationship kryptonite. However you do then deal with the question, is your wife really closeted. That comes with it's own set of headaches.


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## marriageontherocks2

sokillme said:


> *The only difference I could see is there wouldn't be a inevitable size comparison which for a man is just plain physical relationship kryptonite*. However you do then deal with the question, is your wife really closeted. That comes with it's own set of headaches.


With the man there's direct comparisons to size, performance, plus he can impregnate her which involves a whole other dynamic to the cheating and lying, IMO it's much more difficult to get past.


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## x598

OP

the doubts, second guessing yourself, lack of trust, loss of romantic interest in her.......are all NORMAL reactions......and wont go away any time soon.

Here is the real problem.......your wifes new found chasing of you........SINCERITY.

is it real? will it last? will things just go back to before (or worse)? only time will tell and maybe at your age, you have A LITTLE time to invest in her.

i don't think your wife is a ***** and can see (especially in modern times) how curiosity is causing people to do things previously unheard of....heck its even glorified.

while rare, people do overcome this sort of stuff. I would back off the hurt feelings thing and just act "normal". go slow with her but watch her actions very carefully. time will be her undoing or re-kindling of your relationship.


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## Rick Blaine

Read Surviving an Affair by Dr. Willard Harley. Marriages can be recovered and better than ever after infidelity if the right steps are taken by both parties. Your wife is contrite, and it sounds like she wants happy marriage with you. Did you exchange marriage vows and promise to love her for better or worse?


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## 71bgol

Rick Blaine said:


> Read Surviving an Affair by Dr. Willard Harley. Marriages can be recovered and better than ever after infidelity if the right steps are taken by both parties. Your wife is contrite, and it sounds like she wants happy marriage with you. Did you exchange marriage vows and promise to love her for better or worse?


Yes, but, she also promised to love me for better or for worse. As soon as she felt like she wasn't getting enough attention from me she turned to somebody else for attention. In my book she broke the vows. not me by possibly divorcing her for it. 

i'm going to give it the total of 18 month. If things haven't gotten better by then I'm going to throw in the towel. I know for a fact I don't want to Live my life the way I'm feeling now.


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## marriageontherocks2

71bgol said:


> Yes, but, she also promised to love me for better or for worse. As soon as she felt like she wasn't getting enough attention from me she turned to somebody else for attention. In my book she broke the vows. not me by possibly divorcing her for it.
> 
> i'm going to give it the total of 18 month. If things haven't gotten better by then I'm going to throw in the towel. I know for a fact I don't want to Live my life the way I'm feeling now.


I agree with you, even the Bible says it's perfectly acceptable to divorce over adultery. I'm not religious, but for those that are, don't be guilted into remaining in a bad situation based on being faithful to your vows. The vows were irrevocably broken by your wife, not you.

18 months is a long time, if the marriage isn't well on its way to being everything you want, then bailing is more than reasonable.

Don't waste your life on feeling ****ty over someone else's decision. Some people just can't get over it, listen to your gut.


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## TJW

71bgol said:


> In my book she broke the vows. not me by possibly divorcing her for it.


In my book that's correct, too.

Dr. Harley is eminently qualified and a wonderful resource. And, I think he's right, that if the right steps are taken by both partners, a marriage can be recovered. I just don't see very many marriages in which there has been adultery in which the right steps are taken. Mostly what I see is that one partner wants the marriage, the other doesn't. One partner tries to take the right steps, the other doesn't.


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## 71bgol

TJW said:


> In my book that's correct, too.
> 
> Dr. Harley is eminently qualified and a wonderful resource. And, I think he's right, that if the right steps are taken by both partners, a marriage can be recovered. I just don't see very many marriages in which there has been adultery in which the right steps are taken. Mostly what I see is that one partner wants the marriage, the other doesn't. One partner tries to take the right steps, the other doesn't.


We have both taken a lot of steps. It doesn't erase what she did though. I will never understand how someone could lie about where they are going and who they are going to be with, and go meet up with an AP. It stresses me out to even think about doing that to her. Even after she cheated.


----------



## FeministInPink

71bgol said:


> We have both taken a lot of steps. It doesn't erase what she did though. I will never understand how someone could lie about where they are going and who they are going to be with, and go meet up with an AP. It stresses me out to even think about doing that to her. Even after she cheated.


I think what you're feeling is completely normal. It takes a long time to work through this type of betrayal, and emotions never follow a linear path.

This is why I think it would be good for you to do IC. MC to focus on repairing the marriage, and IC for you to help work through this stuff.


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## TJW

71bgol said:


> It doesn't erase what she did


It is nowhere recorded, nor reported, that even God changed the past.

You will never forget. No matter what you do. I like to use the analogy of the mugger who cuts off the arm of his victim. The victim may completely forgive his attacker, but he still goes through life without an arm.

He may take "steps", but he still doesn't grow back an arm and have two, like he would have had, if there had never been a mugging. One arm isn't enough for a complete life. The victim must accept being one-armed and do the best he can.


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## ReturntoZero

sokillme said:


> Boy have are expectations been lowered when expecting your spouse to be faithful is putting them on a pedestal. :frown2:


That's quite the straw man argument.


----------



## ReturntoZero

71bgol said:


> Yes, but, she also promised to love me for better or for worse. As soon as she felt like she wasn't getting enough attention from me she turned to somebody else for attention. In my book she broke the vows. not me by possibly divorcing her for it.
> 
> i'm going to give it the total of 18 month. If things haven't gotten better by then I'm going to throw in the towel. I know for a fact I don't want to Live my life the way I'm feeling now.


Fix yourself - then see how you feel.


----------



## sokillme

ReturntoZero said:


> That's quite the straw man argument.


----------



## ReturntoZero

sokillme said:


>


No one said anything remotely close to "cheating is ok"


----------



## farsidejunky

71bgol said:


> Honestly, I would not even be trying if it was a man she had her affair with. Especially if it got sexual. I would not be able to have sex with her again. I don't have the mental disgust of it being a man. It's just more of the emotional side that hurts. The fact she put herself out there for somebody else. Not to mention the lies and deceit.
> 
> It just comes down to respect. I don't know if I will ever have the same respect for her. In fact I know I probably won't.
> 
> I think I'm just wondering if I want to invest the time and energy to see if we possibly could get back to a good spot. I'm scared to invest 2 to 3 years of my life on reconciliation that's going to possibly end in divorce.
> 
> I mean, has anyone on here read a story of somebody that as happy, or happier after an affair? It always seems like people that reconcile are still miserable. Like a stated tolerable level of misery.


Is it about your respect for her if you reconcile...or your respect for yourself?

Think about that question very carefully.


----------



## sokillme

I was thinking about this and this may not fit in your case as your wife seems all in, but here is a good illustration of how I see R. If you go to SurvivingInfidelity.com right now there is about 250 active members who are BSs and regular posters of some form or another. There are about 10 WSs who are regular posters. Now you would thing that since it was the WS who ****ed up and did something so incredibly painful there would be a least 125 active WSs trying their hardest to fix it, nope in my experience about 10 to 15 at any given time. To me that says all you need to say about WSs. I think it is probably a good representation of your odds also.


----------



## sokillme

ReturntoZero said:


> No one said anything remotely close to "cheating is ok"


No one said you said that.


----------



## ReturntoZero

sokillme said:


> Boy have are expectations been lowered when expecting your spouse to be faithful is putting them on a pedestal. :frown2:


Really now? Is that what "we're" saying?

Perhaps someone should produce that post?


----------



## Diana7

71bgol said:


> We have both taken a lot of steps. It doesn't erase what she did though. I will never understand how someone could lie about where they are going and who they are going to be with, and go meet up with an AP. It stresses me out to even think about doing that to her. Even after she cheated.


Yes, I think that for many the lying and deception is just as bad as the actual affair.


----------



## sokillme

71bgol said:


> We have both taken a lot of steps. It doesn't erase what she did though. I will never understand how someone could lie about where they are going and who they are going to be with, and go meet up with an AP. It stresses me out to even think about doing that to her. Even after she cheated.


Yeah, to me they are like a different species.


----------



## 71bgol

farsidejunky said:


> Is it about your respect for her if you reconcile...or your respect for yourself?
> 
> Think about that question very carefully.


 I have actually thought about this quite a bit. I think it's a combination of both. I am having a hard time respecting myself for staying with her. I don't want to think that I'm codependent. One could argue not respecting myself could just be my own pride getting in the way. It's not like there's continuing abuse on her part. I'm actually struggling for the logical answer in all of this as well. Not deciding purely off motion.


----------



## FeministInPink

Diana7 said:


> Yes, I think that for many the lying and deception is just as bad as the actual affair.


I agree!


----------



## 71bgol

FeministInPink said:


> I agree!


 For me the lying and deception is more of a factor than the actual physical part of the affair. Second would be the emotional part. My wife admitted she was in a high from the attention she was receiving.


----------



## TJW

71bgol said:


> I am having a hard time respecting myself for staying with her.





sokillme said:


> Now I can understand compromising your quality of life for your kids, but then you should come to terms with the fact that that is what you are doing. It kind of changes your mission, there is also and end point then in my mind, which I think you can use to have some hope.


I also felt this way about respecting myself. This comes from people making judgments when they ought to just keep their mouths shut because they really don't know what the hell they're talking about. It's no good to accept these judgments about ourselves when they have no basis in fact.

Sokillme has exactly the right idea there. Self-respect comes to us for doing the "right" thing. The unselfish thing. The sacrificial thing. When we consider others and their welfare as important as ourselves.

I felt very good about myself for sacrificing my sex life and staying in our home to protect my boys. I felt very good about myself for sacrificing the material possessions and getting my wife into a liver transplant program aimed at saving her life. I felt very good about myself for dressing her opening wounds, getting her back and forth to medical care, as her life drew to a close. I felt very good about myself for taking care of the boys, feeding and clothing them, being both mom and dad for a while.

Was it a compromise? You bet. I would have been far happier to have hauled ass outa there and found some decent, moral, upright woman and married her and had sex with her. That is, in the short term.
But when I now look back to between 27 and 31 years ago, I'm here to tell you..... I don't regret a single thing I did. I don't regret any of the things I just mentioned to you, and neither do I regret refusing her sex and protecting my own psyche.


----------



## FeministInPink

71bgol said:


> For me the lying and deception is more of a factor than the actual physical part of the affair. Second would be the emotional part. My wife admitted she was in a high from the attention she was receiving.


So, it sounds like the most difficult part for you is re-establishing trust. That's pretty much the hardest part for everyone, and it takes a long time. There was another TAMer here who said that 7 yrs in, he still doesn't trust his WS 100%.

Once you begin to re-establish trust, I think you will begin to re-establish an emotional connection as well.

In regards to your wife getting an emotional high, I'm wondering how much of this is tied up with your ego being bruised? I'm not saying this in a bad way. I mean that it HAS bruised your ego (as it would for anyone in your position!), and has probably hurt your self-perception and confidence. And that's something that you have to re-build from inside. She won't be able to help you with that part.


----------



## sokillme

TJW said:


> I also felt this way about respecting myself. This comes from people making judgments when they ought to just keep their mouths shut because they really don't know what the hell they're talking about. It's no good to accept these judgments about ourselves when they have no basis in fact.
> 
> Sokillme has exactly the right idea there. Self-respect comes to us for doing the "right" thing. The unselfish thing. The sacrificial thing. When we consider others and their welfare as important as ourselves.
> 
> I felt very good about myself for sacrificing my sex life and staying in our home to protect my boys. I felt very good about myself for sacrificing the material possessions and getting my wife into a liver transplant program aimed at saving her life. I felt very good about myself for dressing her opening wounds, getting her back and forth to medical care, as her life drew to a close. I felt very good about myself for taking care of the boys, feeding and clothing them, being both mom and dad for a while.
> 
> Was it a compromise? You bet. I would have been far happier to have hauled ass outa there and found some decent, moral, upright woman and married her and had sex with her. That is, in the short term.
> But when I now look back to between 27 and 31 years ago, I'm here to tell you..... I don't regret a single thing I did. I don't regret any of the things I just mentioned to you, and neither do I regret refusing her sex and protecting my own psyche.


This is true but for me I would have made a completely different choice and would have no doubt that I was doing the right thing. Which is fine by the way, we don't need to see it the same way. 

I for instance would see no honor in staying with someone who abused me. I also don't think overall it's good for institution of marriage or society in all but the very rare circumstance. I strongly believe in consequences, for example if there were never consequences for stealing, what would that do to society. To me R works in pretty much the same way. I think there are way way to many people willing to put up with abuse and R, and it has damaged society greatly. In my mind it damages basic dignity when people are allowed to abuse others with no consequence. Also loveless marriages are not good for the institution of marriage. I am not talking about romantic love, but there at least needs to be familiar love. Marriage shouldn't be just a business decision, that is why we have business contracts. 

It's not coincidence that young people don't even want to get married any more, many see it as a terrible risk financially and emotionally, or a farce that is not needed. And I can't say they are wrong many times. When after infidelity almost all of the pain and consequence is eaten by the BS when they R or when a spouse stays because the financial burden of leaving is too great to bare, it is a farce. See I hear people say divorce is what has cause the breakdown in marriage as an institution, but I completely disagree with that, it's the infidelity to the vows of marriage that has done that. Divorce is a consequence and in many times blessing in those cases. In the same way I am really not big on so called sacrificial love, to sacrificial love is just codependency. Martyrdom is great for crowns in heaven, but that doesn't have anything to do with marriage. 

So we obviously think differently on what doing the "right" thing is. In this case in my mind divorce is just as much a honorable and moral choice, it is a good choice for society and marriage in general. And I strongly believe if you spouse is unrepentant and continuing to abuse you then it is the only moral choice. I go as far as saying it is immoral to stay with a spouse who abuses you continually (physically or emotionally). We all have a moral obligation to protect the innocent when they are being abused, that includes yourself. In this way it's really up to OP what he feels.


----------



## TAMAT

71bgol,

You wrote, *As soon as she felt like she wasn't getting enough attention from me she turned to somebody else for attention.*

What you wrote gave me pause when I read it, because with OM1, 2 and 3 they all occurred when I had gotten sick or was working alot and not giving her 100% attention. 

I no longer binge eat when she leaves the house and I'm alone, and rarely have deeply disturbing dreams about her cheating on me, but I never feel I can let my guard down with her. My W now tells me she knows how to maintain boundaries but there is always an asterisk after her name.

There was apparently an OW1 as well my W mentioned kissing a girl once so I don't feel comfortable with either gender now, I think it was a 23 yo girl from church btw. 

Tamat


----------



## 71bgol

FeministInPink said:


> So, it sounds like the most difficult part for you is re-establishing trust. That's pretty much the hardest part for everyone, and it takes a long time. There was another TAMer here who said that 7 yrs in, he still doesn't trust his WS 100%.
> 
> Once you begin to re-establish trust, I think you will begin to re-establish an emotional connection as well.
> 
> In regards to your wife getting an emotional high, I'm wondering how much of this is tied up with your ego being bruised? I'm not saying this in a bad way. I mean that it HAS bruised your ego (as it would for anyone in your position!), and has probably hurt your self-perception and confidence. And that's something that you have to re-build from inside. She won't be able to help you with that part.


Not to sound arrogant, but, it has only bruised my ego in the marriage. I wonder now if she will ever be truly happy seeing as I'm man. She claims she's not bisexual and it's not what she wants for her life. There will always be that doubt though. I'm definitely the insecure one in the marriage now. Whereas previously she was. She never thought she was good enough for me. She thinks my ex wife was prettier then her as well. 

My wife is definitely more attractive then the lesbian she cheated with. I think she liked feeling as if she had the upper hand in that department. The AP would talk about how hot she thought my wife was In the texts. She definitely told her what she wanted to hear.


----------



## FeministInPink

71bgol said:


> Not to sound arrogant, but, it has only bruised my ego in the marriage. *I wonder now if she will ever be truly happy seeing as I'm man.* She claims she's not bisexual and it's not what she wants for her life. There will always be that doubt though. I'm definitely the insecure one in the marriage now. Whereas previously she was. She never thought she was good enough for me. She thinks my ex wife was prettier then her as well.
> 
> My wife is definitely more attractive then the lesbian she cheated with. I think she liked feeling as if she had the upper hand in that department. The AP would talk about how hot she thought my wife was In the texts. She definitely told her what she wanted to hear.


I wouldn't worry about this, unless she decides she's a full-on lesbian (rather than bi-sexual); I doubt this is the case, since she is pursuing reconciliation. If she decided she was a lesbian, she'd be pursuing divorce instead.

Listen, I know a lot of bisexual women. Of those who have married, all but one have married men, and they are happy with their choice. From my second-hand experience, their happiness with their spouse is dependent on the PERSON they married, not their spouse's gender.

And your wife claims she isn't even bisexual. So there you go.

Your post makes me wonder if this whole affair happened because your wife was feeling insecure or depressed at the time, and the attention/affair was a way to self-medicate...


----------



## WilliamM

...


----------



## sokillme

WilliamM said:


> I tortured my wife for over two years.
> 
> She had Individual Counseling with various Certified Psychologists and Psychiatrists. They agreed on her diagnosis. I met with my wife and one of her shrinks to hear the diagnosis. Mary ended up on the floor crying her heart out. She couldn't face the truth.
> 
> My choice was to accept her and learn to deal with her illness or divorce her. I chose to reconcile. During that moment, as her shrink explained her illness to me I realized I wasn't angry any more.
> 
> But that was after more than two years of pure hell. Neither of us would give up, but neither of us was happy at all. And I was cruel. Truly cruel. I still marvel at the fact Mary managed to suffer through it without giving up.
> 
> Her affair was in 1978. That meeting was in 1981. Our lives have gotten better and better since then. Today, I could never ask for anyone who could possibly love me more. And I love Mary very much. I thank God I stayed with her.
> 
> She is still sick, and we cope with her illness ever day, but we do cope.


Stories like this, @Affaircare @TJW and @drifting on have convinced me that I can't say my opinion is right. All I can say is my opinion is right for me. That is really what you have to decided OP. Again it comes back to quality of life, for you but also your wife and kids. If you can't get over it then it's not right to stay.


----------



## TJW

71bgol said:


> My wife is definitely more attractive then the lesbian she cheated with. I think she liked feeling as if she had the upper hand in that department.


This is why they say people usually "affair down". The frequent occurrence of this scenario gives a view into what affairs are "about".... they are about ego strokes. 



Sokillme said:


> it comes back to quality of life, for you but also your wife and kids.


That is definitely right. The outcomes and the decisions are all individual ones, there is no one "right" set of decisions. But, there is one right set of motives. And that is the one you describe.


----------



## marriageontherocks2

TAMAT said:


> 71bgol,
> 
> What you wrote gave me pause when I read it, because with OM1, 2 and 3 they all occurred when I had gotten sick or was working alot and not giving her 100% attention...
> 
> There was apparently an OW1 as well my W mentioned kissing a girl once so I don't feel comfortable with either gender now, *I think it was a 23 yo girl from church btw*.
> 
> Tamat


Your wife has had 4 affairs you know about and you're still with her? Why? What could she possibly be offering you? You know there is zero chance of her ever being faithful in your marriage so why stay?

I never trust overly religious people, they're usually full of ****.


----------



## 71bgol

FeministInPink said:


> I wouldn't worry about this, unless she decides she's a full-on lesbian (rather than bi-sexual); I doubt this is the case, since she is pursuing reconciliation. If she decided she was a lesbian, she'd be pursuing divorce instead.
> 
> Listen, I know a lot of bisexual women. Of those who have married, all but one have married men, and they are happy with their choice. From my second-hand experience, their happiness with their spouse is dependent on the PERSON they married, not their spouse's gender.
> 
> And your wife claims she isn't even bisexual. So there you go.
> 
> Your post makes me wonder if this whole affair happened because your wife was feeling insecure or depressed at the time, and the attention/affair was a way to self-medicate...


Not that it justifies anything, but your last paragraph is 100% correct. She was always very insecure with our relationship. The first time she met my ex-wife(my kids mother) she cried as soon as she dropped the kids off. She used to think people looked at us funny wondering why I'm with her. She was on Prozac for depression and anxiety during the affair. She stopped taking it right after and is fine without it now. She says everything she used to get anxious and depressed about seems trivial compared to what she did to me. She still cries sometimes not understanding how she lied to me and actually left to see someone else.


----------



## GusPolinski

71bgol said:


> Yes, but, she also promised to love me for better or for worse. As soon as she felt like she wasn't getting enough attention from me she turned to somebody else for attention. In my book she broke the vows. not me by possibly divorcing her for it.
> 
> *i'm going to give it the total of 18 month.* If things haven't gotten better by then I'm going to throw in the towel. I know for a fact I don't want to Live my life the way I'm feeling now.


Uh huh.

Once that 18th month rolls around it’ll be “...I’m going to give it 2 years total.”

And then it’ll be 2 1/2.

And then 3.

And then 5.

And then forever.


----------



## BetrayedDad

71bgol said:


> Is reconciliation REALLY possible??


No, despite whatever fairy tales you are sold here.

Think of your marriage like a priceless vase. Your wife one day takes the vase and smashes it onto the floor. So after a lot of soul searching you both decide to pick up the pieces and glue it all back together. In many ways, sure, I guess the vase is as it was. Despite the now visible cracks it looks like it COULD still serve it's intended purpose. Until you try to put it to use and pour some water into it only to have it all leak out because it's now a broken piece of **** and you both deluded yourselves into thinking it was the same priceless vase. 

So now you're stuck with a worthless vase and a spouse that was stupid enough to break the only thing that made you rich. That's pretty much reconciliation in a nutshell. 

Good luck with that.


----------



## drifting on

71

We have conversed in private and posted on threads. I've just now become caught up on this thread today. @sokillme is spot on about much of your thread. Don't be so quick to read his posts and move on, read what he says and then think on it over time. After you have done this can you really appreciate what sokillme is really saying. I have found with his posts that they require deep searching within yourself. 

At eight months out, you will have some conflictive thoughts and emotions. Don't be discouraged that you don't feel in love or respect her at this time. I'm sure your trust level is also coming into play with how you are feeling towards your wife. I consider this to be normal in many aspects, she did after all, just nuke your marriage. This doesn't even include what she did to you or what she did in terms of deceit. 

Therapy for me alone was a must, and I still go, as I think I can be a better human being then what I am. I want to be at my healthiest, my best, for many reasons, but mostly FOR ME. Sure, I can divorce, I can find someone new, but my wife has changed completely. This has given her the gift of reconciliation, she has worked very hard and I believe people can change. Changing comes from deep within yourself, I've changed myself, that came from within me and with the help of therapy. 

I remember back to about two weeks before the six month date, and I knew, whatever I decided would be good. Finally, no matter what was chosen, I would be good and healthier. A betrayed spouse has so much to think about, so many angles to look at closely, to make a decision from strength. Once you then make that decision from strength, the next toughest decision comes to you, the leap of faith. You see, you now know what your wife is capable of, but for the last six months, you also know what she is capable of. Has your wife changed? Has she made you feel safe? Has she shown remorse and not regret? Has she shown to be honest? Has she shown that repentance is of high value? 

Not all waywards are the same, but most follow a common script. Because they follow a common script doesn't make them all the same. Betrayeds also have many similarities with each other, but are also as different as the waywards are. I look at some of the waywards on TAM and I'm simply stunned, then a wayward comes and is truly amazing. This is both good and bad, but you can't simply throw all the betrayeds in a group nor all the waywards in a group and say they're the same. 

Respecting a wayward isn't difficult if you see true remorse, and TAM has some good ones in my opinion. These waywards have changed themselves, they've done some very difficult work on themselves to be a better human being. Are you perfect 71, I'm guessing not just like I'm not perfect either, but was a bad choice on your part your defining moment? Did anyone forgive you? If you do the hard work, if you become a better human being, if you become healthier, I can see forgiving. It's not easy to forgive infidelity, it's not easy to give the gift of reconciliation, it's not easy to take the leap of faith for reconciliation. 

In my opinion you are struggling taking the leap of faith, I did too. When you look back over the affair, all that occurred is very difficult to accept. The hardest part is acceptance, because at no time will you ever forget what happened. Begrudgingly I accepted, and it was slow going for me the first two years. I had my reasons for going slow, I wanted every rock unturned and discussed fully, nothing would be overlooked. At the three year mark I felt much better, I felt more peace and happiness. Today, we are working to improve, we both are not satisfied at where we are at. We believe we can have better yet, we believe each day is another chance to love more, we believe our marriage can be more fulfilling. We now are doing very well with intimacy, we make love again, and we are both more fulfilled then our last time. 

Reconciliation is a long road to recovery, and everything is forever changed. That change can be better then before, but you need to commit fully, you need to accept, and you need to take that leap of faith. 

On a side note, you mentioned your wife offered to quit her job, did you say no? If you have said she could remain in that job that is a mistake on you. I said the same, only to find I wasn't strong enough to have my wife and OM working together. This is not an insecurity in you, rather it's your logical brain telling you it's unsafe they remain working together. Your wife needs to quit, but you need to tell her to since you agreed she needn't quit. In a perfect world she would have quit regardless of what you said, but I suspect she believes you are fine because she informs you of any contact. If you want to reconcile successfully, no contact has to be just that, no contact in any way.


----------



## sokillme

71bgol said:


> Not that it justifies anything, but your last paragraph is 100% correct. She was always very insecure with our relationship. The first time she met my ex-wife(my kids mother) she cried as soon as she dropped the kids off. She used to think people looked at us funny wondering why I'm with her. She was on Prozac for depression and anxiety during the affair. She stopped taking it right after and is fine without it now. She says everything she used to get anxious and depressed about seems trivial compared to what she did to me. She still cries sometimes not understanding how she lied to me and actually left to see someone else.


This would be another consideration for me. Does she have some sort of mental illness or personality disorder. I hope she is in some serious IC. 

I think a lot of times the WS is truly mentally ill and really not emotionally capable of being in a marriage. If they are emotionally retarded it's almost cruel to expect them to be able to be in a marriage. I use the example of a asking a mentally retarded person to run a business. I mean no disrespect to the mentally retarded but asking them to do that is cruel and just beyond the scope of their abilities. I truly believe some people are just not emotionally equipped to be in an adult relationship. Even if she is very sorry and you forgive her this is also something you should think about.


----------



## sokillme

@71bgol do you respect your wife? How do you feel about her as a person?


----------



## drifting on

sokillme said:


> @71bgol do you respect your wife? How do you feel about her as a person?




I can tell you in my case, not very much, even with all the hard work and remorse. I respected her as a human being but not so much as a spouse. Respect is very much like trust, it's something that has to be earned. My wife did earn my respect once again as her remorse deepened and her efforts non wavering.


ETA: this would be at the eight month mark like 71 is at.


----------



## 71bgol

drifting on said:


> I can tell you in my case, not very much, even with all the hard work and remorse. I respected her as a human being but not so much as a spouse. Respect is very much like trust, it's something that has to be earned. My wife did earn my respect once again as her remorse deepened and her efforts non wavering.
> 
> 
> ETA: this would be at the eight month mark like 71 is at.


I would say this is pretty accurate. I respect her as good step mother to my kids, a good housewife and hard worker, but not so much as a spouse or partner. 

Even after all the hard work; Quitting alcohol, going to celebrate recovery, getting off Prozac, going to counseling, reading books and being very remorseful. She has changed a lot for the better. She no longer has emotional outbursts or anxiety attacks. Even through all that the respect is only slowly starting to creep back. 

Now that I think back on before the affair @sokillme, she was kind of a mess. She was very emotionally immature and selfish at times. She exhibited a lot of BPD traits. She was the best SO ever 95% of the time. That other 5% of the time it was the worst I've experienced with a SO. That 5% would have been enough to leave if the other 95% wasn't so great. She hasn't went off the rails yet since the affair and seems a lot more stable. I think she learned a lot about herself through counseling and reading.


----------



## sokillme

71bgol said:


> I would say this is pretty accurate. I respect her as good step mother to my kids, a good housewife and hard worker, but not so much as a spouse or partner.
> 
> Even after all the hard work; Quitting alcohol, going to celebrate recovery, getting off Prozac, going to counseling, reading books and being very remorseful. She has changed a lot for the better. She no longer has emotional outbursts or anxiety attacks. Even through all that the respect is only slowly starting to creep back.
> 
> Now that I think back on before the affair @sokillme, she was kind of a mess. She was very emotionally immature and selfish at times. She exhibited a lot of BPD traits. She was the best SO ever 95% of the time. That other 5% of the time it was the worst I've experienced with a SO. That 5% would have been enough to leave if the other 95% wasn't so great. She hasn't went off the rails yet since the affair and seems a lot more stable. I think she learned a lot about herself through counseling and reading.


How much to you feel your wife and who she is is an extension of you. Meaning you think of yourself as couple first and then you second? I know that is how I feel.


----------



## FeministInPink

71bgol said:


> I would say this is pretty accurate. I respect her as good step mother to my kids, a good housewife and hard worker, but not so much as a spouse or partner.
> 
> Even after all the hard work; Quitting alcohol, going to celebrate recovery, getting off Prozac, going to counseling, reading books and being very remorseful. She has changed a lot for the better. She no longer has emotional outbursts or anxiety attacks. Even through all that the respect is only slowly starting to creep back.
> 
> Now that I think back on before the affair @sokillme, she was kind of a mess. She was very emotionally immature and selfish at times. She exhibited a lot of BPD traits. She was the best SO ever 95% of the time. That other 5% of the time it was the worst I've experienced with a SO. That 5% would have been enough to leave if the other 95% wasn't so great. She hasn't went off the rails yet since the affair and seems a lot more stable. I think she learned a lot about herself through counseling and reading.


It sounds like she is improving. It will take some time for you to be reassured that the changes will stick. Once you get to that point, trust (and love) will likely improve.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## 71bgol

FeministInPink said:


> It sounds like she is improving. It will take some time for you to be reassured that the changes will stick. Once you get to that point, trust (and love) will likely improve.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


I think this is a lot of it. I'm not convinced. I guess time will tell.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

yes it is...depending how hard you want to fight for it

We are 35 years...and happier than ever


----------



## sokillme

Here is the other question that should be asked. Would you be happier with someone else who didn't cheat on you.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

sokillme said:


> Here is the other question that should be asked. Would you be happier with someone else who didn't cheat on you.


and how would you possibly know that? unless you divorced and married someone else

We can only answer with facts not with speculation.

My fact is...I am happier than ever. My marriage is better than ever. No speculation. Fact.

Will this be true for everyone else? no

Can it be true for some? yes


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> and how would you possibly know that? unless you divorced and married someone else
> 
> We can only answer with facts not with speculation.
> 
> My fact is...I am happier than ever. My marriage is better than ever. No speculation. Fact.
> 
> Will this be true for everyone else? no
> 
> Can it be true for some? yes


Which is why I say everyone should ask both questions, both are pure speculation. 

How could you possibly know you will recover or your SO won't fall back into patterns that got them there in the first place, I have read plenty of threads where the WS promised the world and seemed to be doing well only to find out they fell back into old patterns or were just better at hiding stuff. 

Some may never regain trust of respect back, there is a whole thread on SI by men lamenting the lack of respect they have for their wives after they cheated. Others where the women do the same, how many threads do you read where they say, I don't love my spouse anymore I am just staying for the kids, (that is not really fair for both parties). 

And then sometimes it takes years, years of time to recover that could be spent on building something new which very will could be better (read lots of threads like that too).

Lots of times I read thread where the person says how they have recovered only to see threads days later were the affair is still the primary focus of these peoples lives. They may think they have a good marriage but many times it's the only one they have every had, so they know no different. There is a reason why you read post by people who finally divorce and they say stuff like, I didn't realize how toxic my ex was, the only thing I regret was not divorcing sooner. Or the ones where they ask if anyone regrets divorcing and 99% say no, only staying so long. 

This is his life we are talking about, it's a huge risk, most people's character doesn't change over night and not without monumental work. Besides all that lots of people eventually just don't want to be with people who stabbed them in the back. Again there are a ton of threads were the person is sometimes years out an decide they just don't love their spouse because the damage destroyed what they once felt for their partner. This may be where OP is headed. To me that is a tragic waste of time. 

And yes there are stories like yours. Which if he is lucky he may have too. That's the choice and the risk. 

However this isn't the R board in SI, presumably OP wanted a balanced opinion on this. You don't get banned here for talking about the risks, at least not yet.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

Well here's the deal...if you try reconciliation...and it fails you can always divorce at some point...right?

Marriage is a 50/50 shot....

you never know how it is going to end...

I can answer for me...it was worth the risk....at the beginning...and after infidelity. I beat the odds. I don't care what everyone else feels or thinks or speculates. I deal in FACT. My fact is...we are 35 years passed and it is better than ever. What others achieve or don't achieve has no bearing upon my life. A question was asked...I answered it honestly based on my own experience.

I cannot answer for you. I did not answer based on other forums...I answered based on my life.


----------



## sokillme

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Well here's the deal...if you try reconciliation...and it fails you can always divorce at some point...right?
> 
> Marriage is a 50/50 shot....
> 
> you never know how it is going to end...
> 
> I can answer for me...it was worth the risk....at the beginning...and after infidelity. I beat the odds. I don't care what everyone else feels or thinks or speculates. I deal in FACT. My fact is...we are 35 years passed and it is better than ever. What others achieve or don't achieve has no bearing upon my life. A question was asked...I answered it honestly based on my own experience.
> 
> I cannot answer for you. I did not answer based on other forums...I answered based on my life.


You seem to be responding that my post about the other question like it was an attack on you. I don't doubt that you have beat the odds and that is great. I am merely stating that that shouldn't be the only question asked, because it leaves out the possibility that there is someone else out there who will give him a better life. Is that not possible? R with someone who cheated on you means taking on a lifetime of baggage and not something to be taken lightly. 

Yes he can try R, if you read the whole thread one of my posts even said 7 months (or whatever it is) is probably too short to know. That being said the one thing in all of this is time. Time in finite. You don't get it back. A healthy marriage is a 50/50 shot, I think the odd are a lot worse after infidelity. Even worst would be him winding up like some poor soul on that board trapped in a dead marriage for years. Nothing even cheating is sadder then that. Divorce is so much more preferable for both parties.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

It was the only question he asked...Is Reconciliation really possible?....I answered it from my perspective


----------



## jinkazama

Is the short term pain of divorce worth the long term gain of finding someone and starting fresh. 

YES:x


If it has gone as far as two years post affair and I still feel this way, it needs to end. I know I don't want to feel this way forever.

Ans: The Ugliest Truth is you will never forget. So You Will Feel this for a long time.:|


----------



## 71bgol

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Well here's the deal...if you try reconciliation...and it fails you can always divorce at some point...right?
> 
> Marriage is a 50/50 shot....
> 
> you never know how it is going to end...
> 
> I can answer for me...it was worth the risk....at the beginning...and after infidelity. I beat the odds. I don't care what everyone else feels or thinks or speculates. I deal in FACT. My fact is...we are 35 years passed and it is better than ever. What others achieve or don't achieve has no bearing upon my life. A question was asked...I answered it honestly based on my own experience.
> 
> I cannot answer for you. I did not answer based on other forums...I answered based on my life.


I appreciate your input and a positive story. But, I have a question. If you are 35 years past, why are you still on a marriage help forum all these years later? Does your life and marriage still revolve around the affair? That's what I don't want! Support for the rest of my marriage in order to be able to stay in this marriage. 

You may be here for a different reason.


----------



## sokillme

jinkazama said:


> Is the short term pain of divorce worth the long term gain of finding someone and starting fresh.
> 
> YES:x
> 
> 
> If it has gone as far as two years post affair and I still feel this way, it needs to end. I know I don't want to feel this way forever.
> 
> Ans: The Ugliest Truth is you will never forget. So You Will Feel this for a long time.:|


In my experience the pain goes away once the thing that gives it it's power goes away. Mainly the love you feel for your WS. With time, and even more so when you meet someone else and fall in love, then your memories of the WS and the betrayal go from - How could this person whom I love do this to me, to every once and a while I remember a ****ty person who I just happened to get hooked up with that did a bad thing to me all those years ago. 

It really does get better especially if you feel like you traded up. At least it did for me.


----------



## Loveless17

Most marriages that have infidelity happen do end up in divorce but some make it through. It seems if the husband cheats, but he is a good dad, provides for his family, is educated and has a good career, the marriage survives. However, if the wife cheats, more often then not, it ends in divorce. Men can't handle being disrespected in that way and will hold it against her or he will make it even and cheat on her. Females are able to forgive their husbands in time.


----------



## Rick Blaine

Yes, reconciliation is possible. It happens all the time in myriad situations, including infidelity. There are countless success stories and countless failures. But the question can't be answered in the general, because every situation is different, and the heart and mind of the wayward and betrayed spouses is different in every situation. 

Reconciliation is a beautiful sacrament in the Church, and when applied authentically with remorse it heals and repairs relationships with God and others. And what relationship is more important than marriage? 

Here's how it works.

1) Examination of Conscience: The wayward spouse examines his or her conscience.
2) Confession: Upon the examination, the wayward recognizes and names the offense, and states it to the betrayed spouse. After stating what has happened, the wayward spouse then gets on his or her knees and asks for forgiveness.
3) Forgiveness is granted: But this is not unconditional and it is not marriage at all costs. Forgiveness is not a statement made by the betrayed spouse that "It's okay." It is NOT okay. With forgiveness comes a firm expectation that the infidelity will not happen again. "Go and sin no more," is what Christ said. Forgiveness does not mean that the hurt and pain are simply washed away. The betrayed spouse will heal in time, but forgiveness is a long process that requires much time and love. Scars will be there for life. We cannot forget, only forgive. But if we don't learn to forgive, we hold onto the baggage of bitterness and resentment, and the promise we made of "for better or for worse" is broken. That promise is made not to make us suffer and be unhappy, but to make us healthy, happy, and strong in committed relationships. 

4) Penance: Upon receiving forgiveness the betrayed spouse atones for the mistake. This means that the wayward accepts transparency and refuses to do any of the behaviors that lead to infidelity again. The wayward ends contact for life and tells the affair partner that he or she hurt his or her spouse and that will never happen again. "I am ending contact with you for life. Don't call or text or write." 

This is followed up by restoring the marriage and committing to time together and relearning to meet each other's needs. Penance is not an act of vengeance or self-punishment; it's an act of love the renews the relationship, picks up the pieces, puts them back together, and makes whole that which was broken. In spite of the testimonies you read here on TAM the truth is many, many marriages have been made better than ever after an affair when both parties approach the situation with a genuine wish to work things out.

But reconciliation takes two. If one of the spouses isn't open to true reconciliation it won't happen. In the parable of the return of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32), the wayward son is the one to initiate the process. He goes through steps 1-3 above, and he even does them twice. The father (the betrayed) welcomes him back with open arms, an act of love and forgiveness that transcends a mere mortal's sense of justice and common sense. 

It is often said here that once a cheater always a cheater. Yes, that is true SOME of the time. But not all of the time. If a spouse takes another back and tries to save the marriage, that is a noble thing to do, not a foolish thing to do. What's the worse that can happen? If it happens again, then the spouse can divorce knowing that they gave their marriage all they had. This was my path, and I have no regrets. 

God bless.


----------



## drifting on

Loveless17 said:


> Most marriages that have infidelity happen do end up in divorce but some make it through. It seems if the husband cheats, but he is a good dad, provides for his family, is educated and has a good career, the marriage survives. However, if the wife cheats, more often then not, it ends in divorce. Men can't handle being disrespected in that way and will hold it against her or he will make it even and cheat on her. Females are able to forgive their husbands in time.





Not always, but I'll have to respond later as I'm very short on time.


----------



## jinkazama

sokillme said:


> In my experience the pain goes away once the thing that gives it it's power goes away. Mainly the love you feel for your WS. With time, and even more so when you meet someone else and fall in love, then your memories of the WS and the betrayal go from - How could this person whom I love do this to me, to every once and a while I remember a ****ty person who I just happened to get hooked up with that did a bad thing to me all those years ago.
> 
> It really does get better especially if you feel like you traded up. At least it did for me.


Yes You are Right

Divorce and NO Contact With the Cheater Really Helps

and when you get attracted to someone else ""the feeling is awesome"":wink2::wink2:


----------



## jinkazama

Loveless17 said:


> Most marriages that have infidelity happen do end up in divorce but some make it through. It seems if the husband cheats, but he is a good dad, provides for his family, is educated and has a good career, the marriage survives. However, if the wife cheats, more often then not, it ends in divorce. Men can't handle being disrespected in that way and will hold it against her or he will make it even and cheat on her. Females are able to forgive their husbands in time.


I think you are Right But thats not 100% true.

The OM Wife in my case was more stronger than me.

She Immediately Contacted the Lawyer. :wink2: when i was still in shock:surprise::surprise:


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

It took me many years to understand true remorse... and several of the regulars here assisted in helping me. Our marriage was good but there was something missing so we came here looking for help and we found it.

I will be brutally honest with you.. the scars of infidelity last a lifetime whether you divorce or reconcile. You asked me why I am here... yet how many divorced folks are here as well? 

I am still here because I like to pay it forward. If I can help one person heal the ways others helped me.. then it will be worth my time and effort.

Our marriage does not revolve around infidelity. But infidelity is a part of our past that we cannot change. 

We are not defined by it.. we don?t talk about it everyday... but it will forever be a part of who we are. 

I cannot pretend it did not happen. It did. I cannot change it. I can look in the mirror everyday and see the scar. My reaction to that scar can be positive or negative. I can let it overwhelm me with sadness and anger or I can see how much we have grown and the lessons we have learned along the way.

Infidelity is like a death... a death to a relationship. We chose to continue to live with each other and help each other and grow toward each other... which brings me back to why am I still here.

I don?t have all the answers... none of us has all the answers... all I can do is tell you about my experience. You can ignore me or take from me something that might encourage you in your own journey.

Life after infidelity is never easy... unfortunately we all must grieve in our own way... and we all must make the best decisions for our own situations. 

I was 27 years old when I cheated... a young wife and mother. Now we are facing retirement.. together. There is never a day that goes by that I don?t regret what I did... however.. I rejoice everyday that we chose to stay together. someone said to me not long ago that regret is for things in the past... and remorse is hope for the future. I think this is a profound statement.


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## 71bgol

I’m feeling pretty catastrophic tonight. Really thinking this not going to work. Every time I start to feel good about things something reminds me of the affair. Feb 19th it will be one year. We made an agreement we wouldn’t let it go past two years If I was still on the fence about things. She said she would let me go at the two year mark if she felt like I just couldn’t pull the trigger. But, more of a separation hoping I’d cone back to her. 

It’s a bit odd. Things have gotten better between us, actually pretty good. Honestly, I’m just tired of thinking about it and being constantly reminded by little things. 

If I could go back in time to when I found out and she was begging me not to leave her, I would tell myself to just walk away. I told myself, her and the counselor I was going to try and it’s been almost a year. Things ARE slowly getting better though. Just a lot slower then I thought it would be. I was honest with her and told her if things don’t improve much from here to the two year mark, I don’t think I can waist anymore time. I told her I loved her, but it just might not ever be the same. I just don’t feel the same towards her anymore. It’s like we are not married.

I almost feel as if the roles are reversed in my situation as to how post-affairs usually go.


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## FeministInPink

@71bgol Post-affair reconciled marriages are never the same as they were before the affair. If that's your goal, if that is what you are aiming for, you're never going to be satisfied with your marriage 2.0. Some couples are able to recover, and some cannot. I'm not sure which camp you fall into yet. It's too soon. Recovery from this sort of thing takes years. Plural. It hasn't even been a year yet.

What you're doing isn't easy, and you're saying that things ARE getting better. What are these reminders that throw you into a tailspin? You need to identify these triggers and figure out a way to deal with them so they don't throw you into an emotional tailspin every time it happens. YOU have control over yourself and how you react, but it sounds like right now you are letting these triggers control you. If you don't change this pattern, you will find it really hard to move forward. This article explains what I mean, but you might need more than a web article to work through it, but it's a good start. 

Perhaps you need to find a way to focus on the positive and the improvements... are you the kind of person who tends to dwell on the negative, or only sees the downsides in situations?

A wise friend once told me, never make a big [relationship] decision when you are emotional, whether it is angry/sad or really happy. Because emotions are temporary. They fade over time, and something so impermanent by nature should influence a decision that will be permanent.

And remember, love is a choice and an action, not necessarily an emotion, because emotions are fleeting. It may take you a long time to feel about her the way that you once did, because trust is a big part of that. But you have to choose to love her, and you have to act on that. It won't magically, spontaneously pop up again for you, especially since you're clearly still in a lot of pain over the affair. The further you move along in your healing, I think that your feelings towards her will change for the better.

Don't give up yet.


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## 71bgol

I really appreciate your positive input. I am taking everything you said to heart. I know I shouldn’t give up yet. We have a good life together, and still love each other. I know at times I’m still going to feel down. I also know not to make decisions when I’m feeling down. I would only tell her I want to give up If I had been feeling that way for a while.


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## Cletus

71bgol said:


> I really appreciate your positive input. I am taking everything you said to heart. I know I shouldn’t give up yet. We have a good life together, and still love each other. I know at times I’m still going to feel down. I also know not to make decisions when I’m feeling down. I would only tell her I want to give up If I had been feeling that way for a while.


There will be reminders of this until the day you die. It cannot be helped as long as you have a memory. 

The only thing you can do is to change your reaction to those memories, if you want to move forward. You cannot forget, but you do not have to wallow. I still remember that time I crashed on my bike and broke my collarbone. It didn't stop me from getting back on the horse, even though every time I see myself in spaghetti straps I get a reminder of that day. 

Remind yourself of why you are together, the hard work you undertook to save something worth saving, and not why you should be apart. Not all of the sting will ever disappear, but it doesn't have to reduce the quality of your marriage going forward.

One day, your spouse may learn something about you that seriously dents your perfect patina (speaking from experience). On that day, you'll be glad for a little reciprocity.


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## sokillme

71bgol said:


> I’m feeling pretty catastrophic tonight. Really thinking this not going to work. Every time I start to feel good about things something reminds me of the affair. Feb 19th it will be one year. We made an agreement we wouldn’t let it go past two years If I was still on the fence about things. She said she would let me go at the two year mark if she felt like I just couldn’t pull the trigger. But, more of a separation hoping I’d cone back to her.
> 
> It’s a bit odd. Things have gotten better between us, actually pretty good. Honestly, I’m just tired of thinking about it and being constantly reminded by little things.
> 
> If I could go back in time to when I found out and she was begging me not to leave her, I would tell myself to just walk away. I told myself, her and the counselor I was going to try and it’s been almost a year. Things ARE slowly getting better though. Just a lot slower then I thought it would be. I was honest with her and told her if things don’t improve much from here to the two year mark, I don’t think I can waist anymore time. I told her I loved her, but it just might not ever be the same. I just don’t feel the same towards her anymore. It’s like we are not married.
> 
> I almost feel as if the roles are reversed in my situation as to how post-affairs usually go.


What is your ages? How long have you been married? Do you have kids? Do you plan to if not?

First off make sure you are not unintentionally waiting for your feelings of love to go away so you can successfully live with her. I notice with lots of posts people say they are not bothered anymore but they also say they don't love their spouse the way they used to. They say stuff like they don't respect their spouse. They don't feel romantically for them. I find this sad, that is not my idea of marriage, it's certainly not worth the work in my mind especially without kids. 

Ask yourself why are you making the effort? Really why? Is it just because of your history? If it is remember your history is already lived. The only thing you and her will live together is your future? What do you expect your future to look like? How do you expect to fell about yourself if you stay with her in the future? Meaning is staying with her going to be at the expense of what you feel is your honor? That is a hell of a lot to give up, at least it would be to me. Are you sure this is not you trying to avoid dealing the pain of her affair or the pain of your marriage ending? Your marriage ended the point where she cheated. The women you loved is dead as well. One way or another you are going to go through all the pain of that, staying with her or not. I have seen people look at that both ways, might as well stay, might as well go. Is it guilt? If so that is misguided, she broke your contract you are under no obligation to take care of her anymore. You were fired, don't go back and sit at your desk. 

No matter what you must deal with the reality of your situation. You are in a new marriage because no matter what you do this marriage will always have infidelity in it. And you are dealing with a new spouse. No matter what you do this women will always be someone who cheated on you. Start from there and decided. 

What has she done to deal with her own issues, and understand if she could do this she has issues. From your posts she lied and carried on a secondary life for a while so you can say her relationship with the truth is compromised. Does she realize this, how has she tried to fix this. 

If you could have your perfect future what would it be? List qualities you think about marriage in that context. Which ones are deal breakers. If you could have the perfect future with her what would that look like. Do the qualities match? If they don't match are any of them deal breakers if so then I think you have your answer. If you get past that part then what do you think the chances are you will have that perfect future with her. 

I promise you if you meet someone else and fall in love this love will not have power over you anymore. 

Some people swear they have better marriages then they ever did before. 

There are arguments for staying together too. I am not the one to give them. I decided a long time ago staying is not for me, nothing I have ever read has changed my mind. I also come from divorce and watched both my parents eventually thrive. I also closer to both my parents then most. Over all divorce was a positive in my life. I have made peace with the fact that in life things end. I care more about having the kind of relationship I want to have then being married.


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## TAMAT

71bgol,

Is your W still working with the OW? If so that's like resetting your recovery clock to zero every time she goes to work. Especially considering they work together in a small workplace.

Have you confronted the OW? What has the downside for the OW been?

Tamat


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## Adelais

71bgol said:


> That's exactly what I Have been thinking about. What will my quality of life be from here on out. I still have emotions towards the whole thing. I still get mad at times and she can sense it even though I hold it in. I still get a sense of shock as well from time to time.
> 
> Why are you holding it in? If you are going to stay married, she needs to know how you are affected. You need to express your feelings, so you don't grow resentful.
> 
> OTOH, If you are determined to divorce, you don't have to tell her how you feel, because she will know that by the D papers.
> 
> Even though I don't know if I'm in love with her it's hard to picture my life without her. I know I would get over it in time if I did end it. We do NOT have kids together,
> 
> She is a habit. If you are not in love with her anymore, you will get used to a new habit when she is not there. If you don't have children with her, and you don't love her end it BEFORE you are tied to her for life due to common children.
> 
> but are a blended family. We do make good money together, and for the most part have built a life together. She is open to signing a post-nuptial, which my lawyer is working on now.
> 
> Her children are not your children. Do you love them as if they are yours? If not, why would you stay for her children. She caused this, not you. Sad for her children to have a mother like that. How much money you make together is irrelevent. You can make money together with someone else...who is faithful. What is in the post-nuptiual?
> 
> I'm a healthy in shape 36 year old. I have never had problems meeting women, especially in my line of work. I'm just trying to decide if I want to stay or could be happy with someone that has cheated. *there are thousands of other women out there that haven't cheated on me and never would.
> *
> Is the short term pain of divorce worth the long term gain of finding someone and starting fresh.
> 
> If you divorce and find you cannot live without her, and she proves to still love you, you can re-marry her if you wish.
> 
> Is the short term pain and work of trying to reconcile with someone I once loved dearly worth it? I feel like I need to establish a timeline. If it has gone as far as two years post affair and I still feel this way, it needs to end. I know I don't want to feel this way forever.
> 
> Good idea. But two years for a couple who has no children is enough time for her to get pregnant, and for you to be tied to her for life, even if you realize that infidelity is a deal breaker.


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## 71bgol

Well if she gets pregnant it’s not mine, lol. I got a vasectomy. So I don’t have to worry about that. 

I guess I don’t want to regret not trying. I know I don’t owe her anything. I’m doing it for myself, I just want to see. 

We have a lot of fun together in and out of the bedroom. We are best friends. I’ve never been with someone I truly enjoy being around. It’s still that way until something triggers me. She gets triggered sometimes as well, and feels sorry and sad. I think part of me is holding onto what was and what possibly could be. 

I guess time will tell. Like I said if there’s isn’t good progress at year 2, I can’t see staying. It’s sad, but, not my fault. I won’t feel guilty l


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## Openminded

Yes, R is really possible but a successful one is not easy. You don't get the old marriage back -- you have to create a new one and that can be difficult to do and take a lot of time. 

If yours isn't working, you'll know when it's time to let go.


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## Adelais

71bgol said:


> We have a lot of fun together in and out of the bedroom. We are best friends. I’ve never been with someone I truly enjoy being around. It’s still that way until something triggers me. She gets triggered sometimes as well, and feels sorry and sad. I think part of me is holding onto what was and what possibly could be.
> 
> I guess time will tell. Like I said if there’s isn’t good progress at year 2, I can’t see staying. It’s sad, but, not my fault. I won’t feel guilty l


It sounds like your marriage is pretty good...except for the infidelity.

The more time that passes since my husband's infidelity 8 1/2 years ago the more I realize that bad things happen in everyone's lives: infidelity, divorce, death of a loved one (not grandma, but of a child, spouse, etc.), unexpected job loss, severe and unexpected financial loss, etc. One can be bitter about it, or one can decide that they will not be controlled by the triggers or live the rest of their life as if the horrible thing just happened.

Infidelity has also made me face the fact that my husband is not the "perfect" guy that I though he was. He also exposed other things he was doing as a way to let me know he is really trying to be transparent, and is looking into his character flaws.

Is he allowed have a deep flaw? Can I live with a man who made a horrible choice and hurt me, even though he now says he deeply regrets it?

Can you live with a woman who has a deep flaw and who deeply regrets her actions?

It is wise for the BS and WS to do what they can to reduce triggers so the wound can heal: change jobs if WS and AP work together, do whatever is needed to stay away from AP, even move to a different town if need be. Even so, there will be a trigger once in a while, which you can process and move on.

If you don't ever want to remember the infidelity, and you think that divorcing your wife will also erase the memory and the pain, it will never happen. Even if you divorce your wife and remarry someone else, you will remember your former wife's infidelity from time to time, and you'll feel the pain it caused.

Staying or leaving your spouse who is no longer being unfaithful and who is repentent boils down to these questions: can you live with your wife, knowing she is the one who hurt you so deeply? Do you believe that infidelity, is the unforgivable sin? Is your wife allowed (in your eyes) to be a deeply flawed person and still have your love?


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## TAMAT

71bgol,

One thing you should do to protect yourself and your children is get a post-nuptual now while you still have leverage. 

But seriously you are almost newlyweds and she already cheated on you? 

Tamat


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## Herschel

You best bet is to become dull to the pain. With that is becoming dull to her too. This goes hand in hand and can you live with it? Sure. Can’t you ever be happy? Not in my opinion.


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## 71bgol

Yes, I know we are basically newlyweds. I’m trying to look at objectively. If she would have an affair with a man and it would have got sexual this early on, no way would I even try. I wouldn’t be able to get past the thought. With this its more of the lies that worry me. Also, if she wasn’t remorseful I wouldn’t have let her back in the house. I think affairs are a litttle situational. How much you can live with. I can live with what happen, she’s remorseful and trying to make it up. We will see if she/we succeeds.


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## TAMAT

71bgol,

Funny thing is my W seems to had a thing with a young church girl and that bothers me more than the OMs, since she got physical contact with another woman, something I've denied myself but wanted during our marriage.

I don't see how you can recover though, if your W has not gone completely no contact with the OW and she has to quit her job to do that. 

Tamat


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## sokillme

In my experience once you truly fall in love with someone else the pain completely goes away. It's just a memory of someone who did something ****ty to you, without painful feelings at all.


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## FeministInPink

sokillme said:


> In my experience once you truly fall in love with someone else the pain completely goes away. It's just a memory of someone who did something ****ty to you, without painful feelings at all.


I hope this is true for everyone. It's been true for me.


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## Quality

sokillme said:


> In my experience once you truly fall in love with someone else the pain completely goes away. It's just a memory of someone who did something ****ty to you, without painful feelings at all.


The OP should be aware of the fact SOKILLME is talking about the pain of losing an old girlfriend he'd dated only about a year that cheated on him several years prior to meeting and marrying his current {and only} wife. SOKILLME has never actually been divorced or in your predicament. An ex-girlfriend is certainly much easeir to forget and move on from than a wife.  In fact, his wayward father {that cheated and divorced his mom} is his best friend right now so he actually believes in forgiveness and reconciliation.

OP - My wife and I have been recovered several decades. The first year is, understandably, very tough. From about the 7 or 8th month, the adrenaline of the whole ordeal wears off and most betrayed spouses experience a post-traumatic event induced depressional period. Your feelings are much more typical than not for a recovering betrayed spouse. Things should start getting better this year if you undertake a plan and "recover" with intentionality. 

My wife and I turned what was meant for evil into something good by sharing our experience with infidelity openly and honestly with other married couples and becoming marriage coaches through our Church. Hopefully we can help them avoid infidelity themselves or find hope dealing with recovering from infidelity or whatever else is ailing their marriage. 

We also encourage couples to learn how to make their marriage better than ever before because going back to an OK marriage just isn't going to be good enough. Here's a great free resource you can use to maybe chart a path WITH your wife down a path of actually "recovering" your marriage - worst case scenario, you'll learn how to make your next relationship better in the process or trying to work out this one in a structured manner. Time doesn't heal marriages - you do it yourself. 

HOW TO SURVIVE INFIDELITY


and

CAN'T WE JUST FORGIVE AND FORGET?


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## 71bgol

TAMAT said:


> 71bgol,
> 
> Funny thing is my W seems to had a thing with a young church girl and that bothers me more than the OMs, since she got physical contact with another woman, something I've denied myself but wanted during our marriage.
> 
> I don't see how you can recover though, if your W has not gone completely no contact with the OW and she has to quit her job to do that.
> 
> Tamat


In some ways the fact it was a woman makes it more complicated.

I have had feelings at times of it “not being fair” she got to experience intamcy with another woman, but i wasn’t/am not aloud to. Sometimes It also makes me somewhat insecure about what she really wants.


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## sokillme

You don't have to believe me. Just read here.

Discount my experience if you want but you only get one life. 

I never said you shouldn't forgive. I forgave my Dad, wouldn't marry him though.


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## ReturntoZero

71bgol said:


> In some ways the fact it was a woman makes it more complicated.
> 
> I have had feelings at times of it “not being fair” she got to experience intamcy with another woman, but i wasn’t/am not aloud to. Sometimes It also makes me somewhat insecure about what she really wants.


Sounds like you want to have them both over for a romp.

I would suggest some serious IC so you can love yourself better. It clears the mind.


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## ButtPunch

ReturntoZero said:


> Sounds like you want to have them both over for a romp.
> 
> I would suggest some serious IC so you can love yourself better. It clears the mind.


This

scorekeeping in anything other than sports isn't healthy

It will leave you bitter all the time


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## Amplexor

Quality said:


> The OP should be aware of the fact SOKILLME is talking about the pain of losing an old girlfriend he'd dated only about a year that cheated on him several years prior to meeting and marrying his current {and only} wife. SOKILLME has never actually been divorced or in your predicament. An ex-girlfriend is certainly much easeir to forget and move on from than a wife. In fact, his wayward father {that cheated and divorced his mom} is his best friend right now so he actually believes in forgiveness and reconciliation.



Moderator's Warning

Just because a fellow member's experience is not fully in line with the OP's situation, it does not negate their advice. Please keep posts directed at the OP and not fellow members. It is disrespectful and runs the risk of jacking the thread.


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## 71bgol

So I decided I’m going to see some individual counseling. Does the gender of the counselor matter? Do I see a marriage counselor or a mental health counselor? Therapist??


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## TAMAT

71bgol,

How did you feel about life in general before your WWs affair?

Tamat


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## 71bgol

Before the affair I was pretty much the same as I am now. I’ve always gone through bouts of depression. Never been on meds or even thought about it. I’ve always struggled to find meaning for my life. If anything it’s gotten better since the affair. It’s a bit of a distraction. I’ve just found that I’ve become more of an angry person now. Yesterday I had to hit the heavy bag for 45 minutes at an intense pace to let it out. I am exhausted today.


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