# I'm the reason we're sexless and hate myself for it!



## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

My story is problem a bit different than the other "sexless" posts here in that I'm the one that isn't initiating or having sex with my husband. I'm the reason it's not happening. We married very young and did not have sex before marriage. We've been married over 20 years and there have been physical intimacy problem since the first day. Currently, it's been over two years since we've touched intimately. Sex has been a chore for me every time and I hate that so badly. I've felt like a failure for years. It's heartbreaking and now it's worse than ever. His touch repulses me and makes me cringe.  We've separated by my choice and he's constantly begging me to come back. We have both missed out on having normal, healthy sex lives. I have sex drive that's increased over the years but I don't want sex with my husband. So, I'm unhappy that I'm sexless too, very unhappy, but I just don't know how to make this be, I've nearly given up. I feel like the minority as I read. Most people on here are sharing their stories of being turned down for sex by their spouses. Well, I'm the who's rejected my husbands advances over these many years, and trust me, it hurts me so much too. Is there anyone out there like me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I don't share your feelings about sex but I am sorry for you and your husband both that you have not been able to have a fulfilling sex life together.

I don't know you, of course, but it does sound like perhaps you would both be better off with other partners. 

I'm a proponent of marriage and a romantic at heart but I also believe that long term happiness is more important. Life is so short.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Why does his touch repulses you and make you cringe? Are you uncomfortable being touched or is it him in particular? Have you been attracted to another man?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

So how else do you connect with your husband and show your love to him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

mineforever said:


> Why does his touch repulses you and make you cringe? Are you uncomfortable being touched or is it him in particular? Have you been attracted to another man?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We have been in therapy together (on and off) and I've been in individual therapy regularly. My counselor said that my feelings are normal psychologically. When I person continually forces herself to do something over and over, it can become easier (almost robotic) or more difficult (like an aversion). The last time we had sex I felt physically ill. It was horrible. That day and the days following were extremely difficult. I just kept wondering how I could ever do that again. And, let my clarify, any touch is difficult, a hand on my shoulder, a hug, not just "sexual" touch. :'( 

Yes, I've been attracted to other guys but I was very young when I married, a teenager. I didn't have much experience. At this point, after all these years, and after counseling and talking to some friends, finally. I'm afraid we just lack something that's needed to make this work. That spark/chemistry that makes sex possible and normal and good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Have you seen a sex therapist or spoken to your Obgyn about this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

mablenc said:


> So how else do you connect with your husband and show your love to him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Over the years, I've verbally praised him, taken care of other things, the kids, and run the household. We are separated now. This issue has caused much resentment both was, but we never fight. He just wants me back home. He says he loves me and is willing to live this way forever. I've told him it hurts me. Imagine knowing that you've failed meeting a need of your husbands for over 20 years. You've prayed and hoped and tried but it only gotten worse. You hurt him everyday, but he won't even admit it. That's me. I hurt because I hurt him. I face this failure day in and day out. It affects every part of our marriage now. We don't enjoy one another. Now that our children are older, it's more evident all that's lacking. He's will to live like this but I don't know if I can anymore. It's killing me too. I feel empty, like a shell of a person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

mablenc said:


> Have you seen a sex therapist or spoken to your Obgyn about this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We've done marriage counseling, but not with a sex therapist. And, yes, I've talked my doctor. There's nothing "wrong" with me. My husband still hopes there is. I have drive and I am able to orgasm on my own. He doesn't know that and I don't want to tell him. I know that would really hurt. I'm just not aroused by him and I want to be, but it's been this way so long. Is it just time to be realistic and quit pretending that one day we're going to wake up and it's going to be different. How likely is that really?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

What would be the ideal situation for you? You to be able to have sex with him or the separation so you don't feel the guilt you are having?
Maybe if you decide what you want for you, you can find a way to get there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

mablenc said:


> What would be the ideal situation for you? You to be able to have sex with him or the separation so you don't feel the guilt you are having?
> Maybe if you decide what you want for you, you can find a way to get there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ideally, to be able to have sex with him and have a fulfilling marriage and life. But, I've hoped for better for so long and I've worked hard. I guess now, I'm feeling hopeless. Like we've wasted so much time pretending that one day things would magically change. I don't want to be in denial anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

I personally have used maca root suplements for energy but they actually help with your libido as well. I actually had to cut back on the dosage becuae inwas on a high high drive. It helps regulate your hormones. I highly recommend it if you want to give it a last shot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

mablenc said:


> I personally have used maca root suplements for energy but they actually help with your libido as well. I actually had to cut back on the dosage becuae inwas on a high high drive. It helps regulate your hormones. I highly recommend it if you want to give it a last shot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I appreciate this suggestion, and I'll check into it but I have desire for sex. I take care of that desire myself, regularly. Drive is not the problem. Intimacy and feeling of comfort with my husband is the problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

other that trying to reconnect, I'm out of ideas. Have you read "his needs her needs"?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## downfall69 (Sep 23, 2012)

why does his touch make you sick? what does he do to turn you off ?
how do you you know that if you were with someone else you wouldn't feel the same with that new guy. if by him putting his hand on your shoulder makes you cringe it must be bad.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Don't go back no matter how much he begs. It's for his own good. Eventually he'll get over you and find someone who loves him. He's only begging now because change is scary.


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## downfall69 (Sep 23, 2012)

with my experience as i was once with someone who felt exactly like you do. i find that once you've lost that feeling there's no getting it back no matter how much you or he try's. your wasting your time.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My wife is kind of like that, no physical touch, not even hug her own daughters... Major case of BPD.


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

john117 said:


> My wife is kind of like that, no physical touch, not even hug her own daughters... Major case of BPD.


What's BPD? I can hug other family members and have always been affectionate with my kids. I'm a caring, nurturing person. Another reason this is so difficult. I can't stand for someone to be hurting because of my actions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

john117 said:


> My wife is kind of like that, no physical touch, not even hug her own daughters... Major case of BPD.


How long have you been married and how has it affected you? Any sex at all?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Did something happen two years ago that you resent him for? Maybe it's unfinished business and your body is reacting to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Together for 31 years, married for 27, good sex for the first 15 years, to decent sex till 5 years ago when a series of events (external and internal) caused her to go from 'some BPD characteristics' to nearly the full monte. 

BPD is borderline personality disorder. You typically don't "get it" like the flu, you have it to some degree or another.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

20 years of this? The kids are grown. Your husband has suffered more than any 10 men should bear. He's not your cup of tea but he's someone's.


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

I would almost guess this is my wife talking. Had you have said you were still together I would think you were my wife posting here. My wife will do anything to joy have sec with me and I feel repulsive all the time. Here's my suggestion - loud and clear - cut him loose. It would be nicer if you told him you hate him, that way he knows trees no hope. He's holding on to threads and any glimmer of hope makes him keep trying. Do the both of you a favor and stop torturing him and yourself for that matter. You said it yourself, he makes you cringe. I sometimes wish my wife would just say it to help me give up. I wonder if you have had a childhood trauma that you have suppressed...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

You've been asked a couple of times what about him makes you cringe and what about him turns you off but you haven't answered. I think there is something there thats triggering this that you arent telling us. What is it?


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Why fireflies? There is a reason and only you know what it is.. you don't cringe for no reason or hate the touch of a particular man for no reason.... why? I'll help you.. it's one of two reasons ...you have been abused/traumatized in some way in the past by someone sexually or something has happened with your husband that has hurt you. If you love him like you say even if he is overweight and not as attractive as he used to be your not going to cringe at his touch unless something else has upset you. So what is it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FemBot (May 1, 2013)

Is he physically attractive to you? What kind of man would turn you on sexually? Do you fantasize about that? Can he become that man for you or is all hope lost?

It's going to take a ton of work to turn this around.....


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

He's doing things or has done thingsto repulse you.... can you get us in the ballpark?

-- Begging for sex
-- Not making enought money
-- Not standing up for you against his family
-- Doing too much housework in an attempt to "get" sex from you
-- Not appearing successful
-- Not providing enough social status
-- Not a good dresser / hygene
-- Not talking, helping, romantic
-- Not funny
-- Not putting you first / making you feel treasured.

Men attract women in specific ways. This applies to husbands not just boyfriends looking to attract someone.... 

You have to start getting honest with his shortcomings in order to fix things.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

So, this was a "shotgun" wedding then, right? You were very young - maybe 16 even - and you ended up getting pregnant. Did you actually date your H prior to him getting you pregnant or was this a case of you exploring your sexuality as a teen, hooked up with an older "upperclassman" once or perhaps a handful of times, never got to really know the guy and before you know it you're making your marriage plans to be with him forever? 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing this is what happened to you, and because of that you feel resentment because sex with him is now analogous to a prison sentence. Am I right?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Let him go. You are torturing him and yourself pointlessly.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

Has he done something in the past that has made you no longer feel sexually attracted to him? People usually don't just stop feeling attracted to someone for no reason.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

The answer lies in these truths about sex for women/wives...

They don't have the same drive
The monotony of the same partner, repetitive cycle.
The act itself, either premature ejac or ED or just selfishness
A busy lifestyle/tiredness
For a woman its invasive. Messy.
For women there are alternatives like sleep, talking, facebook etc.

There are no, none, zip women who rape men... so right there is a direct comparison of the overall drive. I always laugh when women claim to have the same sex drive as men its IMPOSSIBLE absolutely impossible to replicate!

Men will break laws to get laid and risk going to jail.

Also women feel that their spouse won't leave just because they won't open their legs.

Whats surprising to anyone? This is the truth about sex in a long term marriage.

Your only hope is that the woman feels an obligation to open her legs to keep the peace when married to you.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Man I feel for this husband. If the mother of my children ever told me my touch repulsed her I would be devasted. WOM was right when he said leave, don't go back. Hopefully this long suffering husband can find someone to love him.
To the OP I can see by your thread you love this man and how hurt you are by your actions but let him go. Even you should find someone you will be passionate about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

I feel sorry for you but more sorry for your husband. Please do not return to him. He will be better off without you. And any counselor who says there is nothing wrong with you and your relationship should not be practicing, IMHO. To go from having a healthy sex life to being repulsed means you have a problem.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

fireflies said:


> My story is problem a bit different than the other "sexless" posts here in that I'm the one that isn't initiating or having sex with my husband. I'm the reason it's not happening. We married very young and did not have sex before marriage. We've been married over 20 years and there have been physical intimacy problem since the first day. Currently, it's been over two years since we've touched intimately. Sex has been a chore for me every time and I hate that so badly. I've felt like a failure for years. It's heartbreaking and now it's worse than ever. His touch repulses me and makes me cringe.  We've separated by my choice and he's constantly begging me to come back. We have both missed out on having normal, healthy sex lives. I have sex drive that's increased over the years but I don't want sex with my husband. So, I'm unhappy that I'm sexless too, very unhappy, but I just don't know how to make this be, I've nearly given up. I feel like the minority as I read. Most people on here are sharing their stories of being turned down for sex by their spouses. Well, I'm the who's rejected my husbands advances over these many years, and trust me, it hurts me so much too. Is there anyone out there like me?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry, but I feel strongly about this. Exactly how long have you been "repulsed" by him? How long have you been withholding sex? How many years of this man's life have you completely wasted?? Now he's older, probably past his prime, while you are "suffering" your increased libido and desire for sexual and personal freedom, he's probably thinking more about not wanting to die alone than anything else.

Words cannot define how much pity I feel for this guy. Why do people like you string guys along for so long? You knew it was doomed years ago, and yet you stayed, only to increase his suffering exponentially, whether you intended to or not.

I'm disgusted.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

fireflies said:


> We've done marriage counseling, but not with a sex therapist. And, yes, I've talked my doctor. There's nothing "wrong" with me. My husband still hopes there is. I have drive and I am able to orgasm on my own. He doesn't know that and I don't want to tell him. I know that would really hurt. I'm just not aroused by him and I want to be, but it's been this way so long. Is it just time to be realistic and quit pretending that one day we're going to wake up and it's going to be different. How likely is that really?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why don't you show him how you arouse yourself to orgasm so that he can do that for you? Far from being hurt, he would probably be delighted.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> The answer lies in these truths about sex for women/wives...
> 
> They don't have the same drive
> The monotony of the same partner, repetitive cycle.
> ...


So you think that rape is a part of sex drive? You are so wrong.

Many women do have a strong sex drive, but they are weaker than men, so no, _typically _women don't rape men because the idea of her forcing him into it is ridiculous, however some women can be just as mean as men and harass an otherwise unwilling partner to have sex. However, if you want a comparison, some women have committed sexual abuse against boys, so if you really want to have your "rape as sexual need" argument, you have it right there.


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## 4thand11 (May 20, 2013)

I am trying to understand why you married him, since you state you had physical intimacy problems from the very first day. I assume you figured it would change after marriage (since you didn't have sex before), but it didn't?

Seriously I can't believe this guy stayed with you that long. That is not meant as a knock on you, I just can't imagine staying with someone who cringed when I touched her... for 20 years!!!

Well the only thing worse than a 20-year mistake is a 30- or 40-year mistake. Tell him it's over. Seriously forget the separation, it gives him hope that it is just temporary. File for divorce. You say you married very young so you both still have some good years of actual, loving sex ahead of you. Give him (and yourself) a chance.


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

I will reply to all of these comments and questions as I'm able. I appreciate those of you who seem concerned and want to try to help. It's interesting that I've gotten no responses from people who are like me. I realize this is pretty abnormal. I think most of those that are witholding aren't hurting like I am. They don't really care about the damage it is doing to their spouse and their marriage. (I'm assuming that, since no one in my shoes has responded). Well, I do care. It consumes my thoughts and feelings daily. And, for those of you who'd like to beat me up, that's not what I'm here for. I do that to myself everyday and have for many years, trust me.


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

mablenc said:


> Did something happen two years ago that you resent him for? Maybe it's unfinished business and your body is reacting to it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, it's been a process, I think. Sex with my husband has been difficult the entire marriage. So, forcing that all those years has damaged both of us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> 20 years of this? The kids are grown. Your husband has suffered more than any 10 men should bear. He's not your cup of tea but he's someone's.


I agree, he deserves a better life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

FemBot said:


> Is he physically attractive to you? What kind of man would turn you on sexually? Do you fantasize about that? Can he become that man for you or is all hope lost?
> 
> It's going to take a ton of work to turn this around.....


Yes, he is. I do not fantasize about a particular type of man. I fantasize about contentment. I would love to experience good sex a time or two before I die.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> So, this was a "shotgun" wedding then, right? You were very young - maybe 16 even - and you ended up getting pregnant. Did you actually date your H prior to him getting you pregnant or was this a case of you exploring your sexuality as a teen, hooked up with an older "upperclassman" once or perhaps a handful of times, never got to really know the guy and before you know it you're making your marriage plans to be with him forever?
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing this is what happened to you, and because of that you feel resentment because sex with him is now analogous to a prison sentence. Am I right?


You're wrong. No sex before marriage. First child came a few years after we married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> The answer lies in these truths about sex for women/wives...
> 
> They don't have the same drive
> The monotony of the same partner, repetitive cycle.
> ...


Rape isn't usually about sex, it's about power and control. So please don't use that as a comparison.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

I'm sorry, I just don't understand something. If it hurts you so bad to hurt your husband, why not just have sex with him? Having sex with someone that you are not attracted to and are married to is really not the horrible traumatizing event that you seem to infer. To me the solution is to just fake it till you make it. 

Outside of that, what exactly is the issue? Is he overweight, unattractive, body odor, etc etc...


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

KanDo said:


> I feel sorry for you but more sorry for your husband. Please do not return to him. He will be better off without you. And any counselor who says there is nothing wrong with you and your relationship should not be practicing, IMHO. To go from having a healthy sex life to being repulsed means you have a problem.


I feel sorry for him too. Every counselor we've seen acknowledges there are many things wrong as do we. The thing is, he's willing to live this way, to pretend we are a happy family. He wants me back. I stated in an earlier post that my doctor(s) say there's nothing physically wrong with me. I also stated we have NEVER had a healthy sex life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Hicks said:


> He's doing things or has done thingsto repulse you.... can you get us in the ballpark?
> 
> -- Begging for sex
> -- Not making enought money
> ...


This is an important list, has he done theses things?


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

wilderness said:


> I'm sorry, I just don't understand something. If it hurts you so bad to hurt your husband, why not just have sex with him? Having sex with someone that you are not attracted to and are married to is really not the horrible traumatizing event that you seem to infer. To me the solution is to just fake it till you make it.
> 
> Outside of that, what exactly is the issue? Is he overweight, unattractive, body odor, etc etc...


To me it's become very difficult. If you haven't lived this I would not expect understanding. . Like I'm living a lie. It's fake. I don't want to live a fake life anymore. After so long, it takes a horrible toll on a person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

Fireflies - I was in a similar situation. I married my HS boyfriend who was really just my best friend. We were so young and inexperienced that I really didn't understand how important attraction would be as I got older. I just figured that being married to my best friend would be good enough. We were compatible in every other aspect. 

As I got older, I realized what a mistake that was. Like you, there was nothing physically wrong with me and I had plenty of drive but I just was totally turned off by my H. 

Don't beat yourself up but don't keep either of you locked into this marriage. He will be upset but he'll thank you later. You both deserve to find someone with whom you can have a fully loving, romantic and fulfilling relationship. After 20 years, you aren't going to create an attraction to your H that never existed.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

fireflies said:


> To me it's become very difficult. If you haven't lived this I would not expect understanding. . Like I'm living a lie. It's fake. I don't want to live a fake life anymore. After so long, it takes a horrible toll on a person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like a cop out to me, I have to be honest. If it's so horrible NOT having sex for years, why not try constantly having sex?
What's the real issue? You haven't answered any questions beyond 'surface' questions. Is he overweight, bad teeth, poor social skills, doesn't make enough money, etc etc?
What's the real deal?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I don't think you are alone, or unusual.

I think all men in sexless marriages should pay careful attention to what you posted.

It behooves a man to konw that rather than a frozen prude, what he actually has at home is a wife desperately longing for a sexual connection.

Once a man realizes this, he can take it upon himself to correct his own behaviors that are stopping his wife from responding to him sexually.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Wilderness - just wondering if you've never had sex with someone and it ended up leaving you feeling icky and unattracted to this person. That would be a hard way to live for 20 years and I am betting firefly has tried to make herself feel differently.

I had a boyfriend, we waited several months to have sex. I was attracted to him physically - until we had sex. I cant explain it more than saying we were just totally incompatible in that way. After the first time I never wanted to have sex with him again. We did stay together for about 6 more months but I remember doing everything to get out of even kissing. 

It seems most of us that post here aren't getting as much sex as we would like and can tend to over-simplify the LD situation. (Although this OP does not have a low drive - she just doesn't want sex with her husband.)


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## 4thand11 (May 20, 2013)

Hicks said:


> I don't think you are alone, or unusual.
> 
> I think all men in sexless marriages should pay careful attention to what you posted.
> 
> ...


I think you are off base, you sound as if you this is something the husband is doing wrong, or something he can correct. She has NEVER had any sexual attraction for him. They both married the wrong person. Pretty simple solution at this point is to accept it and move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

You do not love your husband. 

Oh you probably have a deep affectionate regard for him. You like him as a person. You respect him as the father of your children. You may even think he is physically handsome. 

But you do not love him. All he has ever been is a friend and companion, but somehow you and he skipped over the passion part. Lust and passion are what cause a woman to emotionally and sexually bond herself to her husband. It is the intense release of dopamine and other chemicals fueled by sex that keeps a woman offering herself to her husband and enjoying it. It seems you never experienced any of this. You may have loved your husband in a filial way at one time but you were never "in love" and thus never sexually or emotionally bonded yourself to him. 

Please do what your husband will not. Get to a lawyer and file for divorce. Set him and yourself free.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> Amazes me how so many women can't stand the thought of having sex with their husband but they never seem to develop the same revulsion to spending the guy's earnings.


Thank you for being so disgusting and sexist. I always made more money than my H. That's probably part of the reason I was unattracted to him honestly.

You are not helping anyone by making such a blanket assumption, based on NO evidence whatsoever by the OP. She's asking for help. How is this helpful?


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

justonelife said:


> Thank you for being so disgusting and sexist. I always made more money than my H. That's probably part of the reason I was unattracted to him honestly.
> 
> You are not helping anyone by making such a blanket assumption, based on NO evidence whatsoever by the OP. She's asking for help. How is this helpful?


Doesn't it make you a sexist for devaluing your husband just because he does not earn as much as you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Amazes me how so many women can't stand the thought of having sex with their husband but they never seem to develop the same revulsion to spending the guy's earnings.


Maybe he spends HER earnings, like mine does 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Hicks said:


> I don't think you are alone, or unusual.
> 
> I think all men in sexless marriages should pay careful attention to what you posted.
> 
> ...


Right. This is a great possibility. But I also threw out the possibility of husbands and wives who NEVER liked their spouses to begin with, so to neglect them and to "withhold" would not be a problem at all, it would feel GREAT!


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

techmom said:


> Maybe he spends HER earnings, like mine does
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Divorce him, marry me and let me spend your earnings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

Trying2figureitout;
Your only hope is that the woman feels an obligation to open her legs to keep the peace when married to you.[/QUOTE said:


> Well when you put it like that, it does sound quite repulsive!


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## Mark72 (May 26, 2012)

This is not an attack. My guess is that you lost respect for him years ago. It sounds like you want to be happy with him, not that you have found another or just want another man. Maybe you should try reading No More Mr Nice Guy - ask yourself if the men in that book resemble your husband. If so, bring the book to him and work through that book with him. It's already been 20 years. What more do you have to lose?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The assumption is that Mr. Nice Guys are stupid and needy by default and that only the Book and acting Alpha will set them free. 

Some of us are nice because it is generally a good thing. My father was the nicest person in the world, to his family or to his subordinate grunts. Almost sacrificed his life in WW2 to save them, medals, commendations, the works. From the book criteria the Major would be Beta Central and would need to man up... 

If being nice in the spouse / dating game is a disadvantage, I'd better look for other species to date.


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## 4thand11 (May 20, 2013)

john117 said:


> The assumption is that Mr. Nice Guys are stupid and needy by default and that only the Book and acting Alpha will set them free.
> 
> Some of us are nice because it is generally a good thing. My father was the nicest person in the world, to his family or to his subordinate grunts. Almost sacrificed his life in WW2 to save them, medals, commendations, the works. From the book criteria the Major would be Beta Central and would need to man up...
> 
> If being nice in the spouse / dating game is a disadvantage, I'd better look for other species to date.


No I think you are wrong if you think the takeaway is that "being nice" is bad, or that you have to be some sort of obnoxious alpha male. Women like nice guys, they want their husband to be a nice guy.

However when it comes to sexual attraction on its most basic, biological level, women are attracted to alpha qualities as well. This could range from being decisive, to being physically in shape, to taking control in the bedroom. Even women who want a "nice guy" respond positively to these type of alpha traits.

In the OP's case I don't think it is as simple as him being "too nice". She married someone she had ZERO physical attraction for. I try to imagine being forced to have sex with some of the ladies at my office... they are perfectly good, decent people but the thought of having sex with them is almost repulsive to me. I'd imagine that must be how the OP feels...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Rape isn't usually about sex, it's about power and control. So please don't use that as a comparison.


Ok lets file up the PORN comparisons then...

Lets see who are the MAJORITY BY A HUGE MARGIN are porn users.

Lets see let me calculate usage patterns....

Here we go..

*MEN*

Now lets check prostitute use....

One more sec working....

*MEN*

Again Women have *NO WHERE CLOSE* to the sex drive MEN do the ones who claim to aren't responding to a drive its something else.

Its like women's drive to read Romance Novels or chat on Facebook. You don't see a guy wanting to start a romance novel book club.

Face it at best SEX is about sixth or seventh on most women's lists of desires. Men its usually 1 possibly 2.

So in long -term marriages after the dust has settled sex is one thing to go... because at that point the woman feels she can get away without that chore.

It really stinks for most men trapped in such a marriage. I feel for women in sexless marriages because they are supposed to be chased and for some it is a desire down the list. But the men have to give up a core component when trapped affecting EVERYTHING.


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## 4thand11 (May 20, 2013)

> Again Women have NO WHERE CLOSE to the sex drive MEN do the ones who claim to aren't responding to a drive its something else.


Well that is quite a blanket statement. Women like sex just as much as men in my experience. However their conditions for WANTING sex are often quite different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

4thand11 said:


> Well that is quite a blanket statement. Women like sex just as much as men in my experience. However their conditions for WANTING sex are often quite different.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Women may "like" it but the drive for "it" is not there.

Face it Women who have great sex with their husbands do so for some other reason than sex drive.

Family
Wealth
Social Status
Not wanting a OGRE around the house
He buys gifts or trades favors
New Cars 
Trips
Flat screen TV's
Having a repairman and gardener built-in


Or she calculated the few hours per month she allocates to that activity are worth her lifestyle.

There have been studies about what women think about during sex...

Shopping
To-do list
Picking up the kids

Etc.


Something BESIDES the sex drive.
Men think about sex during sex.


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## missmim (Dec 29, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Women may "like" it but the drive for "it" is not there.
> 
> Face it Women who have great sex with their husbands do so for some other reason than sex drive.
> 
> ...


Ummmm......no.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Women may "like" it but the drive for "it" is not there.
> 
> Face it Women who have great sex with their husbands do so for some other reason than sex drive.
> 
> ...


How about you speak for your wife and not all other women? Some of us have the DRIVE...a deep urge, desire, and need to have sex and were shamed for it as young women. Some of us daydream about sex as much, if not more than our husbands, who struggle to keep up with us.

Sorry, but you don't know everything that you think you do.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

AnnieAsh said:


> How about you speak for your wife and not all other women? Some of us have the DRIVE...a deep urge, desire, and need to have sex and were shamed for it as young women. Some of us daydream about sex as much, if not more than our husbands, who struggle to keep up with us.
> 
> Sorry, but you don't know everything that you think you do.


I will speak for a MAJORITY of women... not the rare ones who seem to really like it.

Face it if you said any differently you would get chastised so many women talk a good game but in reality proof is in their actual behaviors. Easy to embellish reality in a forum


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I will speak for a MAJORITY of women... not the rare ones who seem to really like it.
> 
> Face it if you said any differently you would get chastised so many women talk a good game but in reality proof is in their actual behaviors. Easy to embellish reality in a forum


Who the heck needs to embellish? I have a rampant drive. I broke up with a boyfriend who could not meet my drive. I married a man I thought would be able to keep up. I was told BY MEN that I have the drive of a man. I thought...wow is there something wrong with me? Now I know...no there isn't. Sex feels good. I don't even need to be in LOVE to have sex, but it certainly makes it a heavenly experience. 

How can YOU speak for a majority of women? Do you KNOW a majority of women? No. You are making suppositions and not very smart ones either.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

AnnieAsh said:


> Who the heck needs to embellish? I have a rampant drive. I broke up with a boyfriend who could not meet my drive. I married a man I thought would be able to keep up. I was told BY MEN that I have the drive of a man. I thought...wow is there something wrong with me? Now I know...no there isn't. Sex feels good. I don't even need to be in LOVE to have sex, but it certainly makes it a heavenly experience.
> 
> How can YOU speak for a majority of women? Do you KNOW a majority of women? No. You are making suppositions and not very smart ones either.



Hence this forum. Hence the divorce rates.

You are a minority of women on the views of sex... most would easily give it up if they could. But fear of divorce keeps them doing it.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

OMG T2 has finally gone off his rocker. He's so invested in believing that his cheating sexless wife represents the majority of women that he's completely lost his mind.

Flat screen TV's?????


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Hence this forum. Hence the divorce rates.
> 
> You are a minority of women on the views of sex... most would easily give it up if they could. But fear of divorce keeps them doing it.


Wrong on so many levels. You insult all wives by saying they only have sex for fear of divorce. What is this the Victorian era? "Most would easily give it up if they could"???? Please tell me you're not that clueless.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> OMG T2 has finally gone off his rocker. He's so invested in believing that his cheating sexless wife represents the majority of women that he's completely lost his mind.
> 
> Flat screen TV's?????


Yes the 60-90" ones to better watch QVC and O


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Wrong on so many levels. You insult all wives by saying they only have sex for fear of divorce. What is this the Victorian era? "Most would easily give it up if they could"???? Please tell me you're not that clueless.


Women PREFER smart phones and caffeine to SEX google it.

Who's clueless?


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I really don't think its rare for women to like sex. Especially in the post Sex And The City world we find ourselves in. I know a lot of women and we talk about sex and most of them like it. I like sex because I like sex. I'm a fan of penis. Not trying to get anything from it other than sex. 

(I will add that I'm the resident board poster who has yet to even have O with another person but this hasn't stopped me from wanting it nearly daily.)


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

MissScarlett said:


> I really don't think its rare for women to like sex. Especially in the post Sex And The City world we find ourselves in. I know a lot of women and we talk about sex and most of them like it. I like sex because I like sex. I'm a fan of penis. Not trying to get anything from it other than sex.
> 
> (I will add that I'm the resident board poster who has yet to even have O with another person but this hasn't stopped me from wanting it nearly daily.)



You are in the minority on this view... in fact the very fact you are here on TAM makes you a special subset of women. Again its NOT COOL to be honest about not liking sex. So your friends embellish that.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Whether it's a husband refusing sex or the wife, in both cases, they have one thing in common...they're still hanging around in a marriage with someone who sexually repulses them. All over this forum, married women (and sometimes men) just outright say they don't love their spouses, don't respect them, can't stand to have sex with them. Still, they're getting something out of the marriage or they'd be gone. If it's not money, it's something else. Whatever they are taking, they aren't willing to give their spouse what he/she needs.


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Women PREFER smart phones and caffeine to SEX google it.
> 
> Who's clueless?


If it makes you feel better to believe THAT is why you are working on a sexless marriage...then have at your delusion. I could see why it would be hurtful to have a spouse choose any activity over having sex with you. But, you do women and men a great disservice by spouting your half-baked theories about women preferring Facebook or caffeine. 

It must hurt to be rejected day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year. I see why you so desperately wish that it is ALL women, rather than the one you have. 

You have my sympathies. Poor fella.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Whether it's a husband refusing sex or the wife, in both cases, they have one thing in common...they're still hanging around in a marriage with someone who sexually repulses them. All over this forum, married women (and sometimes men) just outright say they don't love their spouses, don't respect them, can't stand to have sex with them. Still, they're getting something out of the marriage or they'd be gone. If it's not money, it's something else. Whatever they are taking, they aren't willing to give their spouse what he/she needs.


What percentage of marriages, where one or both are definately only there for "consumable resources"? Keep in mind in some religions and cultures this is absolutely the norm.


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## 4thand11 (May 20, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Whether it's a husband refusing sex or the wife, in both cases, they have one thing in common...they're still hanging around in a marriage with someone who sexually repulses them. All over this forum, married women (and sometimes men) just outright say they don't love their spouses, don't respect them, can't stand to have sex with them. Still, they're getting something out of the marriage or they'd be gone. If it's not money, it's something else. Whatever they are taking, they aren't willing to give their spouse what he/she needs.


Well clearly there are some women who stay simply because their financial situation would be very rough if they left. Especially if they are stay-at-home moms with kids to worry about, and without their own financial independence.

But that is not the same as taking the man's money. They are a family unit, it is all the family's money, no? The man has the option to leave also - often they stay for the same reason (the financial consequences).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

AnnieAsh said:


> If it makes you feel better to believe THAT is why you are working on a sexless marriage...then have at your delusion. I could see why it would be hurtful to have a spouse choose any activity over having sex with you. But, you do women and men a great disservice by spouting your half-baked theories about women preferring Facebook or caffeine.
> 
> It must hurt to be rejected day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year. I see why you so desperately wish that it is ALL women, rather than the one you have.
> 
> You have my sympathies. Poor fella.


Google it if you don't belive me....

Type in "Women prefer smartphones and caffeine to sex"

Its not all just a vast majority


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Ok lets file up the PORN comparisons then...
> 
> Lets see who are the MAJORITY BY A HUGE MARGIN are porn users.
> 
> ...



Darling "Trying2figureitout".....you really haven't read an erotic romance novel have you.....that would be a women's version of porn... women are more into the communication side....men the visual! Try reading a erotic novel to her some time...;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CreekWalker (May 31, 2013)

I would suggest that instead of having him touch you, you should touch him. Have a glass of wine, and start small, run your hands over his fingers, hands and arms. Make some eye contact as you do so. And try to be aware of what your husband is feeling. Notice his expression, watch his shoulders, notice if he relaxes. And think about how nice it is to make him relax.

Next time, try his neck, head and shoulders. Try to use your five senses, to notice how nice his muscles feel, how nice he smells, and to absorb how he is feeling...and to see if these things influence your feelings. 

Keep trying this...and perhaps there will be a spark of attraction for your husband. Love...can lead to such attraction.

Take a look at this; DBT Self Help


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## eyuop (Apr 7, 2013)

The OP hasn't answered the questions that will solve this mystery. 

We are left to guess why she is so repulsed by her husband.

My guess is that she lost respect for him early on and has never gained it back. Maybe even before they were married. Maybe she felt like she needed to marry him for his sake or the sake of his family (and not because she really wanted to). Maybe she actually had a crush on someone else and wished she married him instead. Maybe she had expectations that he shattered and hasn't treated her as an equal partner. Maybe he is a momma's boy and don't stand up for her. Heck, maybe he is gay.

But who knows? I highly doubt that her guy is someone who other ladies would think is a "good catch". If he has been in a virtually intimacy-free marriage for so long, he probably is the most un-confident man in the world. A severe lack of confidence is just about the most unattractive thing on the planet to a woman.

The OP's not telling us, probably because it is too painful for her to throw him under the bus any further than she already has. She can't force herself to feel attraction for him. Attraction isn't something that can be forced. She already feels guilty for not being attracted to him and for treating him like an ice box. Feeling guilty for not feeling attraction is probably one of the biggest turn-offs in the world, too.

Let him go. Maybe he still has time to even have a great relationship with a responsive woman who would love and respect him. 

And you can go find your dream man. Just do him a favor and don't marry him until you are darn sure you are attracted to him both physically and emotionally (and spiritually, if that is a factor).


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

fireflies said:


> My story is problem a bit different than the other "sexless" posts here in that I'm the one that isn't initiating or having sex with my husband. I'm the reason it's not happening. We married very young and did not have sex before marriage. We've been married over 20 years and there have been physical intimacy problem since the first day. Currently, it's been over two years since we've touched intimately. Sex has been a chore for me every time and I hate that so badly. I've felt like a failure for years. It's heartbreaking and now it's worse than ever. His touch repulses me and makes me cringe.  We've separated by my choice and he's constantly begging me to come back. We have both missed out on having normal, healthy sex lives. I have sex drive that's increased over the years but I don't want sex with my husband. So, I'm unhappy that I'm sexless too, very unhappy, but I just don't know how to make this be, I've nearly given up. I feel like the minority as I read. Most people on here are sharing their stories of being turned down for sex by their spouses. Well, I'm the who's rejected my husbands advances over these many years, and trust me, it hurts me so much too. Is there anyone out there like me?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Mrs. OP,

TAM is a treasure trove of pertinent information, especially in regards to sex in marriage. I would recommend you to _read_ these thread carefully (yes, each and every post, especially the OP's) to gain further insight about "sexless marriage" syndrome from both sides.

This is a success story, required readings for both men and women (thank you Mrs. GettingIt!)
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...-now-how-i-get-my-husband-trust-me-again.html

There are some more good advice in this thread below:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/83665-how-happy-you.html

This below is a story of a man who finally had enough and file for divorce. But not before making very very serious efforts for years. 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/67022-ld-wife-has-turned-me-off.html

This one is a sad story, required readings for men who can't let go.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/67027-cruel-unfeeling-wife.html

Well, surely these are enough reading materials for a weekend or three. Happy reading!


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

There are so many excellent posts here. I've read them all and will have time to respond later today. In the meantime, I'm thinking about many of them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## whitecat (May 17, 2013)

fireflies said:


> There are so many excellent posts here. I've read them all and will have time to respond later today. In the meantime, I'm thinking about many of them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi Fireflies,

I am a little late to this thread, but here are my thoughts. 
It sounds like you are feeling very guilty, sad, and hurt by what you think is your fault. I don't really see how this is your fault if the sex has just not been good for you. Did your husband not know how to please you from the very beginning? He probably has some responsibility too doesn't he? You say his touch repulses you, even a hug, or a touch to your shoulder. It is like you've been conditioned through these many years to react this way when you associate his touch with painful sex. Perhaps it was not painful, but it was not pleasant and now it is a reflex. 

I have read about people going into therapy to help them deal with anxious moments or phobias like riding a plane, or touching a spider. Perhaps that type of therapy will be helpful for you?

I have the feeling that this problem can be fixed. You just need to find the right therapist. In the meantime, stop hating yourself. You are looking for answers and that's a good thing!


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## Leena718 (Jun 17, 2013)

Fireflies,

I'm new here and your post is the first one I read and I have to tell you if I wrote a post it would similar to yours.

I have been with my husband for 17 years. The last few have been a struggle for us and have had no sex for 4 years now. We have both been in therapy for over a year. 

I like him but do not love him and his touch makes me cringe. He really wants to have sex and I have zero interest. I have tried several times and cannot get thru it. I feel terrible for him.

We are doing what we can to work on the marriage with hope of my sexual interest in him returning however i'm not sure how much longer as its already been 4 years.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

FireFlies,

I still have no idea what is behind your issue. A large segment of the planet still have arranged marriages with limited contact before the nuptials and manage quite well to have active sex lives. The IS something decidedly wrong with you and your relationship. The reason that you haven't had responses from others in your situation is that it is not usual.

As I stated before, don't go back to your husband. Divorce for his sake and for yours and get into real therapy to understand what went wrong and imrpove your life for the future.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Google it if you don't belive me....
> 
> Type in "Women prefer smartphones and caffeine to sex"
> 
> Its not all just a vast majority


I don't agree with the article, but doesn't really matter.

A woman might prefer her smartphone. Needs to use it many times a day. She might only want sex once or twice a week. 

A normal loving marriage requires intimacy at least once a week. Many survive fine with once every couple of weeks. But to go months and years without sex is just not normal or healthy.

Sex between two people is one of the treasures of life. To live a life without it is very sad. You only have one life to live and so does your spouse. If you are not into your spouse (for whatever reason), please let them go, so that they can enjoy life with someone that cares for them.


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## Mark72 (May 26, 2012)

john117 said:


> The assumption is that Mr. Nice Guys are stupid and needy by default and that only the Book and acting Alpha will set them free.
> 
> Some of us are nice because it is generally a good thing. My father was the nicest person in the world, to his family or to his subordinate grunts. Almost sacrificed his life in WW2 to save them, medals, commendations, the works. From the book criteria the Major would be Beta Central and would need to man up...
> 
> If being nice in the spouse / dating game is a disadvantage, I'd better look for other species to date.


I had the exact same reaction before I read the book. I'm assuming you haven't read it. It's not about being polite or nice. It's about anxiety taking over and being a complete doormat, in a way detrimental to both the nice guy and his significant other.

I read it and was absolutely amazed at the content and its relevancy in my life, and I made some changes. If the OP reads the book and a light bulb comes on, she should read the whole thing with her husband and work through the processes with him.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

OP, let me suggest another theory that some other posters may have touched on.

Sexual ranking and respect. I would have to guess that since you would be attracted to other men, that your husband's sex rank was initially lower than yours when you married and the divide has increased over the years. To the point where you can no longer tolerate it.

Sexual rank equating to age, physical fitness, general attractiveness, his self confidence and his alpha/beta mix.

I'm speculating of course on the physical and age part, but just by him telling you that he would be willing to live with you in a sexless marriage; you lose even more respect for him. Too much beta right there for a lot of women. Or more accurately, not enough alpha. 

If I'm correct, the inevitable course is divorce, unless he can do something to increase his sexual rank. Unfortunately for a lot of spouses on the plus side of the ranking, affairs are all too common. I'm glad you haven't gone that route. At least I hope you haven't.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You can be a very nice guy without being a doormat. 

I have read most of the NMMNG book and while I identify with a lot of it I am not a doormat. 

People always have interior motives and in some instances the motives are easy to see and some others not so much. 

Anxiety may be a key determinant here... The puppy eager to please thing. 

The book does not distinguish levels of LD, a grave mistake in my view. It may work in 2 vs 4 times a week situations but not in 2 times a week versus 2 times a year. I agree with a lot of the book but it is not a panacea.


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

mablenc said:


> other that trying to reconnect, I'm out of ideas. Have you read "his needs her needs"?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I haven't, but have heard of it. I will definitely check it out.


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

downfall69 said:


> why does his touch make you sick? what does he do to turn you off ?
> how do you you know that if you were with someone else you wouldn't feel the same with that new guy. if by him putting his hand on your shoulder makes you cringe it must be bad.


I don't know if it would be different with another person, but I do suspect, since I do have sex drive that it's possible. I could be wrong though. But, even if I would divorce and never have a satisfying relationship, maybe, at least, he'd have a chance at one.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

john117 said:


> The book does not distinguish levels of LD, a grave mistake in my view. It may work in 2 vs 4 times a week situations but not in 2 times a week versus 2 times a year. I agree with a lot of the book but it is not a panacea.


I don't think it is intended to be, at least with respect to sex. One of the big errors many have is to implement these ideas solely so that they get laid more.

The point of the book is to improve yourself as a man, independent of all other things. Doing that will often improve other aspects of your life, but since marriage and sex require another person, of course there is no guarantee.

But one of the benefits is losing the fear to move forward to have the life that you want.


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

Hicks said:


> He's doing things or has done thingsto repulse you.... can you get us in the ballpark?
> 
> -- Begging for sex
> -- Not making enought money
> ...


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I will speak for a MAJORITY of women... not the rare ones who seem to really like it.
> 
> Face it if you said any differently you would get chastised so many women talk a good game but in reality proof is in their actual behaviors. Easy to embellish reality in a forum


Face it, your wife is not attracted to you and you're bitter.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Google it if you don't belive me....
> 
> Type in "Women prefer smartphones and caffeine to sex"
> 
> Its not all just a vast majority


I googled it and got advertisements for different smartphones from different cell phone providers, websites on whether caffeine is okay while pregnant, something about Beavus and Butthead for some reason...but nothing on women preferring smartphones and caffeine to sex.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Just got the wife a Galaxy Note II. Guess no sex till 2025 at the earliest.

http://betabeat.com/2013/05/majorit...-sex-should-just-marry-their-iphones-already/

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100756616

And so on.


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

fireflies said:


> Hicks said:
> 
> 
> > He's doing things or has done thingsto repulse you.... can you get us in the ballpark?
> ...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

fireflies said:


> To me it's become very difficult. If you haven't lived this I would not expect understanding. . Like I'm living a lie. It's fake. I don't want to live a fake life anymore. After so long, it takes a horrible toll on a person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi Fireflies, I want to start by saying that you are indeed in a tough spot when you don't desire your husband physically.

But, this statement makes you sound really selfish and, if it reflects your true feelings, points to a huge issue in your approach to marriage.

You simply cannot assume that the emotional discomfort you get having sex is greater than he gets from not having it. This is especially true when you consider how little actual time you would actually be in the act. What this statement says is you feel some sympathy for him but no real empathy.

Let's suppose you are asked for sex once a week when you are not on your cycle or sick. You''ll have sex around once every 10 days or so. Would you seriously reply that you having sex on 10% of the days is more painful to you than not getting it 90% of the time is to him?

If you really feel that way and are honest with yourself, you would concede that you are okay with minimizing your unhappiness at his expense. You are willing to let him tolerate much unhappiness because you don't see that your sacrifice is worth it.

After all, if you felt bad enough about seeing him unhappy, you would adjust your behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Google it if you don't belive me....
> 
> Type in "Women prefer smartphones and caffeine to sex"
> 
> Its not all just a vast majority


Ok, I took the challenge.

The description of the results are misleading. The actual question was "which of these four things would you be least willing to give up for one week?" The choices were smartphone, caffeine, alcohol and sex.

First, IMO it is a poorly worded survey question. In any event, the question was NOT whether the responders preferred smartphones to sex.

Second, I haven't been able to find a description of the structure of the study. I'm always suspicious of the statistical significance of polls until I know that care was taken to avoid the various biases that are endemic to polls, starting with selection bias.

Third, the results indicate that 70 % of MEN would rather give up sex for a week than alcohol, caffeine or their smartphone.

Sachs Media Group | Shift Happens

So you could just as well say that based on this study, "The vast majority of men prefer smartphones, alcohol and caffeine to sex."

I have real doubts about this survey AND the way the results are being described.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

And the thread derails begins


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

DTO said:


> Hi Fireflies, I want to start by saying that you are indeed in a tough spot when you don't desire your husband physically.
> 
> But, this statement makes you sound really selfish and, if it reflects your true feelings, points to a huge issue in your approach to marriage.
> 
> ...


All said from a HD point of view of course. You have no idea what a LD has to psyche themself up for to have sex when they are not in the mood. For an HD it is easy, why wouldn't anyone wouldn't want to have sex? Pure pleasure they say. For an LD it is like eating ****. That serious.


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## ITjustme (May 22, 2013)

I'm Very curious as to the outcome for You Fireflies. I have been married 10 years with my wife for 12 years. She recently told me basically your story. Though i Don't think she has the same guilt you do. Maybe she does but is hiding it behind a wall of anger and resentment towards me. I love her dearly and hope that some how we can work through this, though it's very disheartening to hear that your wife cringe to your touch. Good luck and i hope that you find a solution to your troubles If you want to.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

techmom said:


> All said from a HD point of view of course. You have no idea what a LD has to psyche themself up for to have sex when they are not in the mood. For an HD it is easy, why wouldn't anyone wouldn't want to have sex? Pure pleasure they say. For an LD it is like eating ****. That serious.


I'm sorry but I don't believe this. To take you literally, I can imagine that if I had to eat excrement for a 15-20 minute period I would be vomiting and sick for days.

The point that was made by another poster is a valid one. If it's uncomfortable for OP to have sex, it is probably more uncomfortable for OP's husband to NOT have sex.

Marriage is not always about doing or getting what you want. The solution is very simple in this situation, IMO. For the OP, have sex with your husband.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

techmom said:


> All said from a HD point of view of course. You have no idea what a LD has to psyche themself up for to have sex when they are not in the mood. For an HD it is easy, why wouldn't anyone wouldn't want to have sex? Pure pleasure they say. For an LD it is like eating ****. That serious.


If they have to steel themselves (wear granny pants, long flannel pajamas, bunny slippers, curlers, and put the music from Rocky "I will survive" on the 8-track), perhaps they need to be honest with themselves first and come clean.

A while back I calculated how many trips I took my girls to their various music / sports / classes / doctor appointments / school functions / etc. It came out into the thousands. Am I in the mood for that? or for painting a 2000 sq ft basement with busted hands due to repetitive stress injury? 

The whole 'love' thing is all about doing stuff because you love the other person and value them more than you value yourself. Does that fly over the head of an LD? Since last Thursday I have been doing my wife's typing after her hand surgery (she's basically selfish enough to not use any of her 4 weeks vacation or ask for short term paid leave but has no problem if I have to use mine).

Love is all about doing things for the 'common good' of the couple. If said LD is never in the mood, then a fair assessment is in order and either split or work it out.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

techmom said:


> All said from a HD point of view of course. You have no idea what a LD has to psyche themself up for to have sex when they are not in the mood. For an HD it is easy, why wouldn't anyone wouldn't want to have sex? Pure pleasure they say. For an LD it is like eating ****. That serious.


Well, I believe you do have to psyche yourself some. But, so what? Isn't sacrificing for the benefit of your spouse part of marriage?

Something else: it feels just as bad for the HD person to keep being repeated rejected (explicitly or implicitly). It feels just as sh!tty to us HDers having to sit there and listen about your day, your "honey do" list, rub your back, etc. with a smile on our faces because you expect us to meet your needs even if our are ignored (a behavior HD people do not exhibit).

You are seriously going to suggest that it is more difficult for a LD person to provide sex, say, 3 days per week than it is for the HD person to forego sex the other 27? I suppose if I believe that then you have a bridge you want to sell me.

I have a suggestion for you. Since giving up sex is not a big deal to you, choose something that you like a great deal and do often - shopping, lunch out, etc. Cut that back from several times per week to once or twice per month, for several months, and get back to us. Generate a little empathy for the HD side.

The second point: sex is supposed to be pleasurable. I would be alarmed if something everyone else found good to be repulsive, and would figure out what I could do to change that status.


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

I debated about posting my story here. I appreciate all the comments and there more posts I have responses to. There are ideas, comments that make sense to me. But, the huge response has made me realize that responding will likely only bring more posts about how unwarranted my feelings are and how horrible I've been. Hearing that further benefits no one. The guilt is more after reading this, I've not slept well in three nights. It's safe to say that most people think I'm a piece of ****, so the feelings I have about myself are shared. I would say at this point, I'll go back, have sex and then, I'm not sure what. For the record, I never stated that I thought my pain having sex with him is more than what he suffers not having, because obviously I don't believe that. Thanks to those of you who expressed some understanding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Fireflies sometimes threads take off on a life of their own. You were brave to post your story. Good luck to you and your husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

fireflies said:


> I debated about posting my story here. I appreciate all the comments and there more posts I have responses to. There are ideas, comments that make sense to me. But, the huge response has made me realize that responding will likely only bring more posts about how unwarranted my feelings are and how horrible I've been. Hearing that further benefits no one. The guilt is more after reading this, I've not slept well in three nights. It's safe to say that most people think I'm a piece of ****, so the feelings I have about myself are shared. I would say at this point, I'll go back, have sex and then, I'm not sure what. For the record, I never stated that I thought my pain having sex with him is more than what he suffers not having, because obviously I don't believe that. Thanks to those of you who expressed some understanding.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You could help your husband greatly if you could give him an honest assessment of what he needs to do to be more attractive to you. This sex rank stuff is for real. Maybe you don't see it now, but if he is capable of upping his sex rank it's very possible you could be attracted to him in time. 

That's why some of us keep asking you for specifics on what exactly you find unattractive about your husband. Regardless of what the problem is, a brand new diet and 5x a week pumping iron can REALLY help even in marriages that seem hopeless. Couple that with a brand new wardrobe and newfound confidence that comes with transforming one's body and you might be surprised what is possible. If you are a believer in God, I'd also recommend turning to Jesus Christ as He can heal like no other.


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## CreekWalker (May 31, 2013)

Fireflies, 
I have thought a lot about your post. I tried to relate to what you've said...and I remembered my very first boyfriend. We were high school sweet hearts. I loved him and everyone thought we'd get married. He was my first sexual partner. At the time...I just thought sex was a huge let down. It wasn't like you read about in romance novels. It was uncomfortable and gross and sweaty and....not fun. At first...I kept trying. I thought...it HAS to be better at some point. I mean, my friends liked it. I didn't get it. He was gentle, he wasn't a jerk or anything...sex just felt very biological if you know what I mean.

After 4 years, he and I broke up. The next man I dated became my husband. The difference in sex from the beginning was incredible. My husband was 4 years older than me, and had dated and had sex with around 14 women. This made me feel ill when I first found out....but this man was totally different in bed. He knew my body. There are a few "Mrs. Robinsons" out there that I owe big time. 

He knew/saw how nervous I was. He was AMAZING. He played games with me like facing each other and coming close to touching but not quite touching, we spend evenings just laying together running hands around but not having sex. Being with him was like...foreplay at all times lol. He taught me how to want him. He also encouraged me to explore myself. He bought me a vibrator and a Penthouse Forum magazine. 

Eventually...I decided I wanted to give as well as I got, and tried watching some sensual, couple pornography. I know a lot of women hate it, but it taught me that I should touch more, and I felt less embarrassed in the bedroom. It really helped me. 

I believe it is probably both you and your husband that need a sexual/bedroom make-over, based on my own experiences. I also don't encourage my kids to wait to have sex until marriage. Because...I see the kind of love making my husband learned, and I lived the nightmare of trying to enjoy sex with a man who was clueless. I really think you two could fix it. Perhaps talk to a sex counselor, or even a really good friend you both trust who is more sexually inclined.

I don't think your situation is hopeless. I think with some work on both your parts, you can figure this out and it could be amazing.


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

wilderness said:


> You could help your husband greatly if you could give him an honest assessment of what he needs to do to be more attractive to you. This sex rank stuff is for real. Maybe you don't see it now, but if he is capable of upping his sex rank it's very possible you could be attracted to him in time.
> 
> That's why some of us keep asking you for specifics on what exactly you find unattractive about your husband. Regardless of what the problem is, a brand new diet and 5x a week pumping iron can REALLY help even in marriages that seem hopeless. Couple that with a brand new wardrobe and newfound confidence that comes with transforming one's body and you might be surprised what is possible. If you are a believer in God, I'd also recommend turning to Jesus Christ as He can heal like no other.


I haven't answered that but have been thinking a lot about it. I've never heard of this sex rank thing but it makes some sense here for sure. Well, I think we started off in a way we shouldn't have. Married for the wrong reasons, but didn't realize that at the time. The sex problems started immediately. We've never had what you would call great sex. Not like we had it and lost it. I convinced myself other things in the marriage we ok. After years, this has affected all parts of the marriage. So, what specifically is unattractive? He let himself go, gained a lot of weight immediately, some hygiene issues in my opinion (not shaving, showering as often as needed), some bad manners around me, tobacco use, dressing sloppily at times. These things have improved some over the years. And, I suppose I have lost some respect for him. He's a good guy, works hard, as do I, but I run things. Make all decisions and he likes it that way. Well, I don't. I want him to take some control. Early in our marriage when he wasn't getting sex enough I'd get looks, attitude and I understand that, but the only verbal I would get about it was "something's wrong with you." We've never had an argument about anything. We keep things bottled up and it festers. There's resentment. About 5 years ago I initiated conversation about our problems. He didn't like that. He wants to continue to pretend. I want him to be real, honest. I want him to say ," I'm pissed about this!" He won't, he's too nice. And anytime I seem angry about something and an argument was looming he follows me around like a puppy dog trying to avoid confrontation. Now, I'm not saying I want to fight all the time, but it's not normal the way we live.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

I'm really trying to work through this and am here for help. If you have something to say that bashes me, please keep it to yourself. I'm well aware that many of you think I'm a horrible wife. And in response to the post asking if I'm a believer in God, yes, we've been in a very conservative church our whole marriage. Another reason this is so difficult, I know what God expects.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

fireflies said:


> I'm really trying to work through this and am here for help. If you have something to say that bashes me, please keep it to yourself. I'm well aware that many of you think I'm a horrible wife. And in response to the post asking if I'm a believer in God, yes, we've been in a very conservative church our whole marriage. Another reason this is so difficult, I know what God expects.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And, I've prayed the entire marriage for help. I'll be honest, I've questioned and become angry at God for not helping me change. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Fireflies, I hope you stick with your post.
Ignore what's not helpful to you.

Now, you say you married for the wrong reasons, and chose a man based on his ability to be a father to your children.

I will tell you that you married for the right reasons, and that women are biolgically driven to choose a man based on his ability to parent her children. You married a man to get a better life and married a man who you deemed would be a good father to your children.

The question you should be talking through with your therapist is why are you telling yourself that you married the wrong man for the wrong reasons, while another person could easily say you married the right man, at the right time, for the right reasons? The crtiical questoin you should ask yourself is what benefit do you get out of telling yourself all of this. 

I want to tell you you are deciding on purpose to tell yourself these things. I want to tell you someting about marriage. No one has ever chosen the perfect spouse. We all have a list of things we like about our spouse and things we don't like about our spouse. We have things we like about our life and things we don't like about our life. A person who is successful in their marriage and their lives in general has strategies to lead their thoughts into a productive place.

Now, you also talk about being fake.... This is another very interestiing concept and one I believe many wives think about. I would say, respond to this post by saying what would real mean to you? If you think you are living in a fake way, what would living in a real way look like?

Now, this is not all on you. You are certainly blocking yourself from having a happy marriage in my opinion. But, you have given a great list of things that your husband is doing that is killing your attraction to him, and will kill anyone's attaction to him. And there is one more thing, no man could ever attract a women by putting up with your attitiude with respect to the life and marriage he gave you. There is help for him with various websites and books. Is there an interest on your part in pointing him to any resources?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Hi Fireflies,

After reading about your history / childhood, the light came on in my head. My ex exhibited a similar phenomenon when proposing marriage to me, as it turns out. Her history includes one mentally ill parent and the other parent fairly disconnected. 

She liked me because she thought I was handsome, intelligent, and would be a good provider for her and her future children. Her priority was to not worry about having food in the fridge or a roof over her head. She took it a step further and promised specific sexual performance then reneged on it - something I don't think you did.

It seems that this phenomenon is not uncommon with people who had difficult lives as children. A very good counselor told me a few years ago that a well-adjusted person chooses a relationship partner based on a mix of "how attracted am I to this person" and "what does this person bring to the table". But, someone with a tough childhood places too much emphasis on the latter, which causes problems later in the relationship.

That is exactly what happened to me, once the pain of her childhood receded into the past and she got used to having a nice home and money in her pocket. See, those memories faded, but the "me first" attitude persisted. So, her screwed up childhood torpedoed our marriage on many levels (caused her to choose a mismatched partner and then prevented her from really committing to the relationship).

So, I do get what you are going through - I lived it. I would suggest you do the following:

1) Get professional help in dealing with your bad childhood. I think you may need to unlearn a certain self-centeredness that made it acceptable to use another person as an escape from a bad situation. You also want to be a capable, self-sufficient adult so that you don't remain in this relationship (or go into another one) for the wrong reasons.

2) You need to tell your husband the whole, unvarnished truth about why you chose him. His behavior screams to me that he thinks the lack of sex is his fault. So, he beats his head against a wall trying to figure out what he has done wrong to turn you off, and how he might fix it and win you back.

The hard truth is he never really had you in the way he thought he did. And, he will be better off knowing that. From personal experience, it will hurt him to hear that you used him in that manner. But, he will realize the sexlessness is not his fault and make better choices about how to direct his time and energy.

Yes, it might disadvantage you some to have him stop fawning over you and trying to win you over. That's why you need to have the confidence to not need that attention and provide your own fulfillment. Or, you might like him not having sex with you on his mind.

3) You need to honestly consider how much you are willing to do with him and how much effort you are willing to put into meeting his needs. He can't do what's best for him unless he gets the brutal truth from you. 

My ex had in the past told me the truth about why she chose me. She then made it clear she did not value a strong sexual relationship with me, knew she had issues, but did not think the benefit to me (that is, having a well-adjusted, sexually capable wife) was worth the effort she would have to make to get to that point. I was better off for knowing it.

Good luck to you.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

john117 said:


> If they have to steel themselves (wear granny pants, long flannel pajamas, bunny slippers, curlers, and put the music from Rocky "I will survive" on the 8-track), perhaps they need to be honest with themselves first and come clean.
> 
> A while back I calculated how many trips I took my girls to their various music / sports / classes / doctor appointments / school functions / etc. It came out into the thousands. Am I in the mood for that? or for painting a 2000 sq ft basement with busted hands due to repetitive stress injury?
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree:

I'm very LD and I actually really agree with this. I've read these forums a lot, and honestly, I see so much selfishness on both sides of the spectrum. If you married someone, you made a vow to try to make that person happy. Sex is extremely important to my husband. It is a part of his being. For me, it's selfish to with hold sex because I don't feel like trying to get in the mood or I don't like the mess. Sometimes it's just not ideal. It's not perfect. But that's life. 

I also see HD people who can also be selfish. For them, it's not enough that their partners are trying. They see sex as "chore sex" or they think their spouses are not making enough effort. Sometimes HD spouses can be very demanding of LD partners, and I think this just makes the situation worse.

I just see a lot of ME, ME, ME all around. If that was the case with my husband and I, we'd be divorced long ago. I'm not always satisfied with our sex life, and I know he wishes it could be better. But we're committed to each other, and putting the other person first.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

fireflies said:


> I haven't answered that but have been thinking a lot about it. I've never heard of this sex rank thing but it makes some sense here for sure. Well, I think we started off in a way we shouldn't have. Married for the wrong reasons, but didn't realize that at the time. The sex problems started immediately. We've never had what you would call great sex. Not like we had it and lost it. I convinced myself other things in the marriage we ok. After years, this has affected all parts of the marriage. So, what specifically is unattractive? He let himself go, gained a lot of weight immediately, some hygiene issues in my opinion (not shaving, showering as often as needed), some bad manners around me, tobacco use, dressing sloppily at times. These things have improved some over the years.


What is his incentive to improve? If you were never attracted to him, why would he worry about adding weight? What would be the difference to him?

If you want to fix things, you will need to show movement when he does. If, for example, he lost 20 pounds and started showering more, what are you prepared to do? If you were never attracted to him even when he was better, how will things change on your side. I am not optimistic, but these are things you need to think about.



> And, I suppose I have lost some respect for him. He's a good guy, works hard, as do I, but I run things. Make all decisions and he likes it that way. Well, I don't. I want him to take some control.


Have you always wanted him to take control, or is this new? If new, what changed? How did you two arrive at this arrangement? What happens when he is given control? Have you two ever discussed a project, for example, and then give him control?



> Early in our marriage when he wasn't getting sex enough I'd get looks, attitude and I understand that, but the only verbal I would get about it was "something's wrong with you." We've never had an argument about anything. We keep things bottled up and it festers. There's resentment. About 5 years ago I initiated conversation about our problems. He didn't like that. He wants to continue to pretend. I want him to be real, honest.


Sorry, you don't get say you have been honest and he has not unless you have told him that you have never been attracted to him and that his touch repulses you. You both need to be honest, but don't put that blame all on him. You have plenty to take on as well.



> I want him to say ," I'm pissed about this!" He won't, he's too nice. And anytime I seem angry about something and an argument was looming he follows me around like a puppy dog trying to avoid confrontation. Now, I'm not saying I want to fight all the time, but it's not normal the way we live.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You two likely need counseling to allow you to both say what you want and need to say. To get out the real issues so that you can work on them. 

Where I am at a loss is how you expect to gain attraction to someone that you admit you have never been attracted to. Really think hard about what you will do if you get all the issues out on the table and toward resolution, but still are not physically attracted to him. What then?


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

I don't understand why people keep ragging on the OP that she needs to take the blame.

She titled the thread "I'm the reason we're sexless and hate myself for it!"

She is already taking ALL of the blame. More than she should be, IMO.

And, really, this blame game is counter-productive. Her feeling ashamed has not made anything better in all these years. It's unlikely that it will produce better results now.


fireflies, were you ever attracted to your husband? In the beginning, were you attracted?

What made the sex bad from the beginning? Was it painful for you? Did you orgasm? Did he try to please you?

What has he done to try to get more sex? Has it always been just the angry/frustrated looks and saying that there's something wrong with you? Or has he put in any amount of effort to make you want him?

Why did you marry him? You said that it was for the wrong reasons - what were those?

People are making a lot of assumptions, they're filling in the blanks that you've left. Please elaborate on those things so we can get a clearer picture of what is going on.


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## Mark72 (May 26, 2012)

fireflies said:


> I debated about posting my story here. I appreciate all the comments and there more posts I have responses to. There are ideas, comments that make sense to me. But, the huge response has made me realize that responding will likely only bring more posts about how unwarranted my feelings are and how horrible I've been. Hearing that further benefits no one. The guilt is more after reading this, I've not slept well in three nights. It's safe to say that most people think I'm a piece of ****, so the feelings I have about myself are shared. I would say at this point, I'll go back, have sex and then, I'm not sure what. For the record, I never stated that I thought my pain having sex with him is more than what he suffers not having, because obviously I don't believe that. Thanks to those of you who expressed some understanding.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You came to this site and asked questions for one of three reasons: 
1. You wanted to be validated in withholding sex from him
2. You wanted to be validated in leaving him
3. You wanted to find a way to get back to a sexual relationship with him.

I am always the optimist so I was hoping it was for 3. You heard some things you didn't like - men that are in your huisbands shoes letting you know what you are doing to him. You heard some validation from women that are in your shoes.
But the question is this- what are you going to do? The options are to keep withholding, to meet your husbands needs, or to leave. There may be some ways to meet his needs and your own, but that will take a lot of work and understanding from both of you. He will have to meet your needs as well. You said that the results of the marriage counseling wasn't satisfactory? Find different counselors. Sex therapy is something you havent tried - try that. 
This man obviously loves you to hang with you this far. You obviously care about him to be with him still. 
Gotta figure out what that disconnect is or you will be miserable and/or divorced


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

I read through more of OP's posts, and I think I was a little harsh in my response. First off, I want to say that I admire your honesty, OP. 

As a LD individual, I do understand where you are coming from, esp. in your feelings of guilt. I don't really have a sex drive and I struggle with guilt wondering what is wrong with me--esp. when I read lots of posts from HD women who orgasm with no problem at all and have an innate sex drive. I feel inadequate. 

I also feel guilty because I do not desire sex with my husband, and I'm even a little repulsed by the mess/smell sometimes. I also realize that I was in a different place when we married ten years ago. In no way did I deceive him or mean to mislead him, but I was a very immature 23-year-old who was on the rebound out of a controlling relationship. I wanted a family, and I wanted a good man. My husband was/is all those things. There's no denying he has a good heart, and he is a good person.

I've decided that I love him, and I want the life we've built together. Because of this, I'm willing to put forth the effort in the sex-department. It's worth it to me. And he's shown me that he loves me enough to put up with a sex life that isn't always as "hot" for him as it could be. I value sex because it brings us together as a couple. But it doesn't really do anything for me physically. He knows this, and I know it is hard for him. I think we all know that part of the joy of sex for a man is seeing his partner revel in it. I know I need to work more on this area, and I hope I can get there.

You basically have a decision to make. Is your sex life something you are going to work on, or not? Keeping with the status quo is not really healthy for you or him. As you've said, it's tearing you apart.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

momtwo4 said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> I'm very LD and I actually really agree with this. I've read these forums a lot, and honestly, I see so much selfishness on both sides of the spectrum. If you married someone, you made a vow to try to make that person happy. Sex is extremely important to my husband. It is a part of his being. For me, it's selfish to with hold sex because I don't feel like trying to get in the mood or I don't like the mess. Sometimes it's just not ideal. It's not perfect. But that's life.
> 
> ...


:smthumbup::iagree: I agree completely. We LDs are often being painted with the same brush. The fact is that not all LD are sexually selfish. (Not to say that there aren't any selfish LDs, surely there are plenty, but we unselfish LDs do exist!)..


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> I read through more of OP's posts, and I think I was a little harsh in my response. First off, I want to say that I admire your honesty, OP.
> 
> As a LD individual, I do understand where you are coming from, esp. in your feelings of guilt. I don't really have a sex drive and I struggle with guilt wondering what is wrong with me--esp. when I read lots of posts from HD women who orgasm with no problem at all and have an innate sex drive. I feel inadequate.
> 
> ...


The big difference between you and the OP is that she desires sex, but not with him and never has with him.

So it is not the case of her not wanting any sex because she has changed, but putting up with it because it is important to him. It is her never having wanted sex with him, putting up with it because it is important to him, but her wanting sex with others. I don't see how that is sustainable without a real change in her view of him.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

fireflies said:


> I haven't answered that but have been thinking a lot about it. I've never heard of this sex rank thing but it makes some sense here for sure. Well, I think we started off in a way we shouldn't have. Married for the wrong reasons, but didn't realize that at the time. The sex problems started immediately. We've never had what you would call great sex. Not like we had it and lost it. I convinced myself other things in the marriage we ok. After years, this has affected all parts of the marriage. So, what specifically is unattractive? He let himself go, gained a lot of weight immediately, some hygiene issues in my opinion (not shaving, showering as often as needed), some bad manners around me, tobacco use, dressing sloppily at times. These things have improved some over the years. And, I suppose I have lost some respect for him. He's a good guy, works hard, as do I, but I run things. Make all decisions and he likes it that way. Well, I don't. I want him to take some control. Early in our marriage when he wasn't getting sex enough I'd get looks, attitude and I understand that, but the only verbal I would get about it was "something's wrong with you." We've never had an argument about anything. We keep things bottled up and it festers. There's resentment. About 5 years ago I initiated conversation about our problems. He didn't like that. He wants to continue to pretend. I want him to be real, honest. I want him to say ," I'm pissed about this!" He won't, he's too nice. And anytime I seem angry about something and an argument was looming he follows me around like a puppy dog trying to avoid confrontation. Now, I'm not saying I want to fight all the time, but it's not normal the way we live.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thank you for having the courage to answer my question honestly and directly. I see some real positives in your answer, things that can be changed and are likely to help you and your marriage. Now let me address your response.

The first thing is that it doesn't matter at all that you married for the wrong reasons. You've mentioned that numerous times in this thread already, so I put it under the category of 'hang up'. It's not something that can be changed and it's not something that is all that relevant now. Besides, if your marriage can be repaired, in the future I doubt you'll even care why you got married.

The second thing is something that you may like to hear. In my opinion, for your marriage to work your husband is going to have to share in fixing it. Your husband DOES have a problem, which is a decided lack of masculinity that manifests itself in supplicating behaviour that truthfully, men should not engage in because in the real world women hate it. Of course, the rejection he has experienced has really contributed to it (and/or exacerbated it) and his self worth is probably in the toilet these days.

If you want to fix this, it's going to take some non negotiable components:
1. Absolute unwavering commitment. Failure is not an option and you can't be waiting for the next shoe to drop. 
2. Brutal honesty and communication. Sit him down and tell him you can not live with being married to a man that acts effeminate. Tell him that your rejection has probably been a big part of his behaviour, and apologize for that. Also, if you haven't very clearly communicated to him what you wrote in this post, apologize for that as well. Explain that if your marriage is going to work, and for you to come home, he will need to face these issues head on- with you at his side- and that anything less in unacceptable. Tell him the truth in a kind way. You don't want to be married to a pansy (don't use that word, obviously). You are not attracted to him. He needs to hit the gym hard and change his body. Explain to him what you are willing to do. I would start by committing to having sex with him at least 3x week and trying everything in your power to enjoy it. Do whatever you can whether it be sex therapy or discussing it, trial and error, whatever it takes.
3. Patience. Your husband is not going to change overnight and you can't expect a miracle. Expect 2 steps forward, 1 step back. If he truly commits to changing, your marriage should get better fairly quickly. But this isn't magic. It takes hard work.
4. You have to do your part. Your husband is NEVER going to make it without your help. It's your job to support him in his newfound endeavor of discovering his masculinty. Do research, buy him books, refer him to websites, etc...Most of all, as long as you see he is trying, grant him every quarter and strive to be supportive and complimentary. Build him up. Have sex with him. Go that extra mile, etc etc.

One question that I do have, and it's an important one (be honest here)- how attractive are you? If you are a stunning model type woman and he wasn't blessed with good looks, it is going to be much tougher for your husband to attract you than if, say, you are a 6 or 7 and he is a 4.

You mention your belief in God, which I love to hear. Does your husband also believe? I truly believe that _anything_ is possible through Jesus Christ. Anything.

"But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."
Matthew 19:26


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> The big difference between you and the OP is that she desires sex, but not with him and never has with him.
> 
> So it is not the case of her not wanting any sex because she has changed, but putting up with it because it is important to him. It is her never having wanted sex with him, putting up with it because it is important to him, but her wanting sex with others. I don't see how that is sustainable without a real change in her view of him.


I overlooked that. That is a very good point. And it's something that I cannot relate to on a personal level because I can honestly say that right now I do not physically desire sex with anyone (no matter how attractive). And my husband IS attractive, too.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

wilderness said:


> I thank you for having the courage to answer my question honestly and directly. I see some real positives in your answer, things that can be changed and are likely to help you and your marriage. Now let me address your response.
> 
> The first thing is that it doesn't matter at all that you married for the wrong reasons. You've mentioned that numerous times in this thread already, so I put it under the category of 'hang up'. It's not something that can be changed and it's not something that is all that relevant now. Besides, if your marriage can be repaired, in the future I doubt you'll even care why you got married.
> 
> ...


:iagree: This is such good advice. I think part of the problem here is that you do not admire or respect your husband. It is a turn-off to have sex with a man who you do not respect. He has contributed to the problem by his passive attitude. Like you said, you run everything and he likes it that way. If he wants your marriage to survive, you need to work on these problems together. He needs to take an active part in this.

I also agree that the reason you initially married will not matter in the long run. I brought so much baggage to our marriage. But we still have something beautiful that is worth preserving.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

OP,

In all honesty the more you detail about your relationship the more obvious it is to me that his beta dominance is the core issue.

He's the one that could benefit more from posting here. He desperately needs to read "Married Man's Sex Life Primer" by Athol Kay. (You should too, for some perspective) I'm not sure how you could get him to read it without being obvious, but I'd try if I were you.

There's a saying "alpha's attract and beta's hold". But the problem is that he never attracted you. Never showed you those alpha qualities that typically attract women; never improved his sex rank. But you married him anyway. It's not surprising to me that it's finally caught up with you after all these years.

You can't blame yourself for being repulsed by his touch. You don't choose that reaction. It's instinctual. Nor should you blame yourself for wanting out of the marriage because of it. The only blame on you would be "if" you cheated on him. 

Some might argue that you can also blame yourself for marrying a man you weren't attracted to. I'm not sure about that.

But I do think, you owe it to your husband to work together with him to help him understand this disconnect. If he's willing to live in a sexless marriage, surely he would be open to doing things to improve his alpha qualities and his sexual rank. The question is; can he improve them enough?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

wilderness said:


> I thank you for having the courage to answer my question honestly and directly. I see some real positives in your answer, things that can be changed and are likely to help you and your marriage. Now let me address your response.
> 
> The first thing is that it doesn't matter at all that you married for the wrong reasons. You've mentioned that numerous times in this thread already, so I put it under the category of 'hang up'. It's not something that can be changed and it's not something that is all that relevant now. Besides, if your marriage can be repaired, in the future I doubt you'll even care why you got married.
> 
> ...


This is good advice, and could very well work, accept that it ignores that she was never attracted to him or desired him in the first place. You point out all of his flaws (and they are many), but it ignores the fact that she had no attraction to him before those flaws exist. Have to say that I suspect that there is more than a little justification going on here.

So with all of that, I think the one thing to add is that she needs to really think about what she is going to do if he does all this work and she still has no desire for him. Once she has that, she needs to make it crystal clear to him what will happen. Because as bad as it is that she has not been honest with him, it would be cruel to give him this list, having him work through it and improve, only to pull of the rug by leaving because she can't make herself attracted to him. If she cares for him at all, he deserves to know both the rewards and the risks.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> This is goof advice, and could very well work, accept that it ignores that she was never attracted to him or desired him in the first place. You point out all of his flaws (and they are many), but it ignores the fact that she had no attraction to him before those flaws exist. Have to say that I suspect that there is more than a little justification going on here.
> 
> So with all of that, I think the one thing to add is that she needs to really think about what she is going to do if he does all this work and she still has no desire for him. Once she has that, she needs to make it crystal clear to him what will happen. Because as bad as it is that she has not been honest with him, it would be cruel to give him this list, having him work through it and improve, only to pull of the rug by leaving because she can't make herself attracted to him. If she cares for him at all, he deserves to know both the rewards and the risks.


It's my experience that passive and effeminate men are not attractive to women. Add weight issues and hygeine issues, a poor sense of style, and an eroding self confidence and you have a recipe for disaster. So it's not surprising that she was never attracted to him.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

badmemory said:


> OP,
> 
> In all honesty the more you detail about your relationship the more obvious it is to me that his beta dominance is the core issue.
> 
> ...


Oh I think there is plenty of blame to go around here. He never stepped up (and probably didn't know how), but she never helped him step up and she also valued her own needs more than her husband's. I say this not to be a jerk, but because I believe that any solution is going to have to include both parties being accountable for the actions and inactions that got them to the point they are at.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

techmom said:


> All said from a HD point of view of course. You have no idea what a LD has to psyche themself up for to have sex when they are not in the mood. For an HD it is easy, why wouldn't anyone wouldn't want to have sex? Pure pleasure they say. For an LD it is like eating ****. That serious.


"LD" have the responsibility of understanding the HARM they do to a marriage.

Seriously *NO ONE goes into marriage thinking there will be long-term sex issues with their spouse*. NOT one single person on Planet Earth.

"LD" people need to own up to the FACT they are the issue...NOT the ones with a normal sex drive. They also control the sex life and do a HORRIBLE job of it completely out of fairness to the other normal spouse.

Most "LD" just bury their heads in the sand and make up EXCUSES rather than being forthcoming about their ISSUES!

If sex is like eating **** thats an ISSUE with THAT person.
THAT person is directly responsible for the HARM they cause.
They are bad spouses. Calling a spade a spade.
They deserve nothing as long as they refuse to work towards common ground.

I can say brussel spouts taste like *** and thats fine becuase it ONLY affect me.

SEX is by definition TWO when you say it tastes like **** you affect your spouse directly... HUGE DIFFERENCE!

SEX is NOT a bargaining chip.
The moment you compromise that statement you are a BAD spouse.

Your NORMAL spouse is bound by the vows which preclude them from going outside your marital bond that puts ALL the OWNESS on you as the "LD" spouse. You are the issue. You cause the harm. You torture your spouse.

In a court you would be sent to JAIL with the key thrown away.

"LD" spouses are constantly torturing the normal spouse. Especially when they refuse to do anything about it communicate about it. Seriously WTH.

They all have a screw loose. Deep down all you LD spouses know this is true.

ONLY solution is common ground.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

wilderness said:


> Oh I think there is plenty of blame to go around here. He never stepped up (and probably didn't know how), but she never helped him step up and she also valued her own needs more than her husband's. I say this not to be a jerk, but because *I believe that any solution is going to have to include both parties being accountable for the actions and inactions that got them to the point they are at*.


:iagree: fair, very very fair!


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> "LD" have the responsibility of understanding the HARM they do to a marriage.
> 
> Seriously NO ONE goes into marriage thinking there will be long-term sex issues. NOT one single person on Planet Earth.
> 
> ...


While I understand your points and see that your words has some truth in it, I must add that not LDs behaves selfishly like what you describe above. If you change "Most LDs" into "Selfish LDs" then what you wrote above makes more sense to me.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

"Selfish and brutally honest LD's"

Which, judging from TAM, is into purple squirrel territory.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

john_lord_b3 said:


> While I understand your points and see that your words has some truth in it, I must add that not LDs behaves selfishly like what you describe above. If you change "Most LDs" into "Selfish LDs" then what you wrote above makes more sense to me.


I disagree I will say all LD who have not met the RESPONSIBILITY to meeting in the middle with their spouse.

I venture to say that's most


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

wilderness said:


> It's my experience that passive and effeminate men are not attractive to women. Add weight issues and hygeine issues, a poor sense of style, and an eroding self confidence and you have a recipe for disaster. So it's not surprising that she was never attracted to him.


I don't disagree (though not sure he reaches the level of effeminate), but I don't see any basis for any attraction at all. Even if a man had those bad qualities before, there is usually some level of attraction in the beginning. Without that as a starting point, I don't have any confidence that she will be attracted even after he fixes everything. 

Thus, she needs to be upfront about what she will do if she ends up not being attracted to him. He deserves that information.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> "LD" have the responsibility of understanding the HARM they do to a marriage.
> 
> Seriously *NO ONE goes into marriage thinking there will be long-term sex issues with their spouse*. NOT one single person on Planet Earth.
> 
> ...


Ya know, I resent how you lump all LD spouses into one mound of mire. Do you think I would change myself if I could? Do you think I would like to have a hot orgasm every time I have sex? Do you think I would take sex supplements if someone actually invented them for women? Where is viagra for WOMEN who have trouble orgasming, btw????

You cannot lump LD people all together and call them "BAD." It's just not that simple. It's not that black and white. Everyone has a choice of whether or not to ferment in their circumstances--their too-high sex drive, too-low sex-drive, malfunctioning hormones, whatever... OR you can work to make something better for yourself and for your spouse.

Not all LD people are bad and selfish. You need to stop and think about that a little before you make such generalizations and express such a biased opinion.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I disagree I will say all LD who have not met the RESPONSIBILITY to meeting in the middle with their spouse.


Ah, if worded that way, emphasis on RESPONSIBILITY, then yes I agree. LD or no LD, anybody whom are married has the responsibility to make their spouses happy. And yes, I do not respect LDs who thinks like this: "Sex is not important for me, so accept me for what I am, for better or worse".. to me they are selfish ones who gives all LDs a bad name.



> I venture to say that's most


If that is reworded into "most LDs who has caused their partners to scramble to TAM looking for advice" then I agree. Otherwise, it's generalization, and I refuse to paint all LDs with the same brush.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

momtwo4 said:


> Ya know, I resent how you lump all LD spouses into one mound of mire. Do you think I would change myself if I could? Do you think I would like to have a hot orgasm every time I have sex? Do you think I would take sex supplements if someone actually invented them for women? Where is viagra for WOMEN who have trouble orgasming, btw????
> 
> You cannot lump LD people all together and call them "BAD." It's just not that simple. It's not that black and white. Everyone has a choice of whether or not to ferment in their circumstances--their too-high sex drive, too-low sex-drive, malfunctioning hormones, whatever... OR you can work to make something better for yourself and for your spouse.
> 
> Not all LD people are bad and selfish. You need to stop and think about that a little before you make such generalizations and express such a biased opinion.


:iagree::smthumbup: totally!


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> Ya know, I resent how you lump all LD spouses into one mound of mire. Do you think I would change myself if I could? Do you think I would like to have a hot orgasm every time I have sex? Do you think I would take sex supplements if someone actually invented them for women? Where is viagra for WOMEN who have trouble orgasming, btw????
> 
> You cannot lump LD people all together and call them "BAD." It's just not that simple. It's not that black and white. Everyone has a choice of whether or not to ferment in their circumstances--their too-high sex drive, too-low sex-drive, malfunctioning hormones, whatever... OR you can work to make something better for yourself and for your spouse.
> 
> Not all LD people are bad and selfish. You need to stop and think about that a little before you make such generalizations and express such a biased opinion.


Have you continually communicated your struggles at lest every few weeks to your spouse?

If no you are a bad spouse.

I venture to guess you don't. When is the last time you had a complete disclosure of your struggles and asked your spouse to partner with you to find a remedy and set goals?

I venture to guess NEVER

"LD" spouses feel they are normal and justified..they aren't. They prefer to NOT talk about it.
That is completely unfair.. while married and committed to a normal human without sex hangups.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Have you continually communicated your struggles at lest every few weeks to your spouse?
> 
> If no you are a bad spouse.
> 
> ...


Well you are once-again WRONG in your assumptions. My DH and I communicate every time we have sex (we average a few times a week) about how it went and how it could be better. I've honestly communicated with him that I do not orgasm. We are working on the problem together.

You cannot say that ALL LD spouses are one way and that they are abnormal. This is like saying spouses with a HD are sex fiends who only think about sex and got married with only one thing in mind. It is like saying ALL HD spouses need to be less needly and focused on sex and actually get a hobby so they have a life outside of sexual desire.

Not ALL LD spouses are uncommunicative and unwilling to change or compromise. This is an unfair assumption on your part.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

momtwo4 said:


> You cannot say that ALL LD spouses are one way and that they are abnormal. This is like saying spouses with a HD are sex fiends who only think about sex and got married with only one thing in mind. It is like saying ALL HD spouses need to be less needly and focused on sex and actually get a hobby so they have a life outside of sexual desire.
> 
> Not ALL LD spouses are uncommunicative and unwilling to change or compromise. This is an unfair assumption on your part.


Agree... my sex life went from monthly sex, to no sex for a full year (my fault, I was a lazy LD who had fallen into complacency), but now improving to several times a month.. because my wife finally communicated how she felt. Now I am making efforts to meet her needs, at least 3 to 4 times a month when time permits. I have to rely on regular workouts, food supplements and self-hypnosis to do so, but the smile on her face is worth it. But if she never directly communicated what she needs, maybe to this day we'd still have an almost sexless marriage.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Women may "like" it but the drive for "it" is not there.
> 
> Face it Women who have great sex with their husbands do so for some other reason than sex drive.
> 
> ...


Evidently you're not a woman, so how can you pretend that you have any idea about a woman's sex drive? Have you ever read anything about it, and discovered that a woman's sex drive is dictated by her menstrual cycle? Do you know that the majority of women have more desire for sex just before ovulation? Do you know that women have testosterone in their bodies? 

Before you make any more stupid, sexist statements about how women don't desire sex but are basically w.h.o.r.e.s who exchange sex for gifts, perhaps you could actually look up some *medical facts*.


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## Mark72 (May 26, 2012)

ANd getting back to the O.P.....


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Yeah, stop this... OP is looking for help. Op is not a low drive person. She's getting good advice in the middle of an arguement that is not relevant nor resolvable.


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> The big difference between you and the OP is that she desires sex, but not with him and never has with him.
> 
> So it is not the case of her not wanting any sex because she has changed, but putting up with it because it is important to him. It is her never having wanted sex with him, putting up with it because it is important to him, but her wanting sex with others. I don't see how that is sustainable without a real change in her view of him.


I want to clarify some things about my sex drive. I never said I wanted sex with others, I said I have sex drive. I masturbate and I do fantasize about having a fulfilling sex life, but striving to be with someone else, I do not.

As far as attraction to him, I touched on this but need to elaborate. When we were dating there was some attraction. We "played" and I was able to enjoy some of that. We kissed and again, I was able to enjoy. But, once married and intercourse was thrown into the mix, things changed. As much to my surprise as his. As I said, I was young, inexperienced and no one ever talked to me about the importance of sex in a marriage. I just thought it would happen and be fine. It didn't, obviously. 

The attraction to him waivered very soon after marriage. I've never one time initiated sex with my husband. I've never wanted to or looked forward to sex with my husband. I've been able to orgasm but to get through sex must rely on movies and hours of mental prep. Fantasizing during also. Sex always requires artificial lubrication. Always, every single time we've had intercourse. I realize now, that's very unusual. Sex has never been the glue that holds us together or that makes us closer. It's the opposite for me. I think forcing it all those years, for me, has made our relationship less comfortable as a whole. We communicate horribly. We fear telling each other the truth. It's gone on so long, we've handled it poorly, and I'm fearful now that it's too late, but I want to try. Lots of good advice today. Thank you.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

Has sex been physically painful, Fireflies? Do you suffer from vaginismus.


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

wilderness said:


> I thank you for having the courage to answer my question honestly and directly. I see some real positives in your answer, things that can be changed and are likely to help you and your marriage. Now let me address your response.
> 
> The first thing is that it doesn't matter at all that you married for the wrong reasons. You've mentioned that numerous times in this thread already, so I put it under the category of 'hang up'. It's not something that can be changed and it's not something that is all that relevant now. Besides, if your marriage can be repaired, in the future I doubt you'll even care why you got married.
> 
> ...


This is an excellent post and I thank you. This sex rank thing is fascinating. I haven't researched it further, but plan to. You asked a question, said it was an honest one and asked for honesty. How attractive am I? Hard to answer about yourself, but I will. I probably am a higher rank. At one time he was nearly 100 lbs overweight. I work out and am in good physical shape. He likes to "coach" me but never joins in. I'm tall, he's stocky. I like to take care of myself, he neglects himself. His self esteem is much lower than mine. (Before someone says it, I'll jump in, I'm sure some of that is because of my treatment of him. I'm aware of that). I'm much more confident than him. I think he's intimidated by me at times. Men do try to flirt with me. More than one person has said something to me before like, "You guys just don't seem to go together." Including our own son. I believe they meant that in more than one way. In an individual therapy session once I asked my therapist, "why in the world would he still want me?" She named a list of characteristics, things I do for him, and then paused and said.....AND you look good on his arm. I had never thought of it way before. 

And, yes, he's a believer in God too. In my opinion, the main reason he's stayed this long.


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

janefw said:


> Has sex been physically painful, Fireflies? Do you suffer from vaginismus.


No, it's not physically painful, but would be without the artificial lubrication I'm sure. It's become emotionally painful.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

fireflies said:


> I want to clarify some things about my sex drive. I never said I wanted sex with others, I said I have sex drive. I masturbate and I do fantasize about having a fulfilling sex life, but striving to be with someone else, I do not.


I certainly did not mean to imply that you had someone already identified. Ratehr, you do have a sexual drive, want sex with someone (even if it s a faceless man), but no desire for sex with him.



> As far as attraction to him, I touched on this but need to elaborate. When we were dating there was some attraction. We "played" and I was able to enjoy some of that. We kissed and again, I was able to enjoy. But, once married and intercourse was thrown into the mix, things changed. As much to my surprise as his. As I said, I was young, inexperienced and no one ever talked to me about the importance of sex in a marriage. I just thought it would happen and be fine. It didn't, obviously.


Your posts indicates that you also did not enjoy some of that. Is that accurate?



> The attraction to him waivered very soon after marriage. I've never one time initiated sex with my husband. I've never wanted to or looked forward to sex with my husband. I've been able to orgasm but to get through sex must rely on movies and hours of mental prep. Fantasizing during also. Sex always requires artificial lubrication. Always, every single time we've had intercourse. I realize now, that's very unusual. Sex has never been the glue that holds us together or that makes us closer. It's the opposite for me. I think forcing it all those years, for me, has made our relationship less comfortable as a whole. We communicate horribly. We fear telling each other the truth. It's gone on so long, we've handled it poorly, and I'm fearful now that it's too late, but I want to try. Lots of good advice today. Thank you.


Again, never wanting sex with him is a huge hurdle. Perhaps not insurmountable, but certainly makes things very difficult.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

fireflies said:


> Men do try to flirt with me.


What happens when they do? Does it occur in front of your husband? If so, how do you react?



> More than one person has said something to me before like, "You guys just don't seem to go together." Including our own son. I believe they meant that in more than one way.


That is pretty brutal coming from his own son. How did that come up and what was your reaction? Consider that your lack of respect for him comes through to your kids. Part of the issue may be a feed back loop, where he has little confidence, you and others (including his own kids) don't respect him, which he sees and results in even less confidence. Repeat.

I do want to be clear that I am not trying to beat up on you. Rather, you are the one here, so I am giving you advice to clean up your side of the street. In the end, that is all you can do - you can't control him. Work on yourself, take positive steps that allow him to work on him, and then see what happens.


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## ALotOnMyMind (Jun 15, 2013)

fireflies said:


> My story is problem a bit different than the other "sexless" posts here in that I'm the one that isn't initiating or having sex with my husband. I'm the reason it's not happening. We married very young and did not have sex before marriage. *We've been married over 20 years and there have been physical intimacy problem since the first day.* Currently, it's been over two years since we've touched intimately. Sex has been a chore for me every time and I hate that so badly. I've felt like a failure for years. It's heartbreaking and now it's worse than ever. *His touch repulses me and makes me cringe.*  We've separated by my choice and he's constantly begging me to come back. We have both missed out on having normal, healthy sex lives. I have sex drive that's increased over the years but I don't want sex with my husband. So, I'm unhappy that I'm sexless too, very unhappy, but I just don't know how to make this be, I've nearly given up. I feel like the minority as I read. Most people on here are sharing their stories of being turned down for sex by their spouses. Well, I'm the who's rejected my husbands advances over these many years, and trust me, it hurts me so much too. Is there anyone out there like me?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I read the entire thread but I knew from your OP that either you were never sexually attracted to him or that you had suffered sexual abuse at some point in your life before marrying him. I'm inclined to believe the former. The only solution here is to divorce him, telling him that you simply were never sexually attracted to him, but that it isn't his fault, it was no one's fault. Sexual attraction is based on many things but if the pheromones aren't there, it just isn't happening. If no pheromones, there's no spark, there's no chemistry. 

If you ever want to enjoy sex, and if you ever want him to enjoy sex, divorce.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

fireflies said:


> This is an excellent post and I thank you. This sex rank thing is fascinating. I haven't researched it further, but plan to. You asked a question, said it was an honest one and asked for honesty. How attractive am I? Hard to answer about yourself, but I will. I probably am a higher rank. At one time he was nearly 100 lbs overweight. I work out and am in good physical shape. He likes to "coach" me but never joins in. I'm tall, he's stocky. I like to take care of myself, he neglects himself. His self esteem is much lower than mine. (Before someone says it, I'll jump in, I'm sure some of that is because of my treatment of him. I'm aware of that). I'm much more confident than him. I think he's intimidated by me at times. Men do try to flirt with me. More than one person has said something to me before like, "You guys just don't seem to go together." Including our own son. I believe they meant that in more than one way. In an individual therapy session once I asked my therapist, "why in the world would he still want me?" She named a list of characteristics, things I do for him, and then paused and said.....AND you look good on his arm. I had never thought of it way before.
> 
> And, yes, he's a believer in God too. In my opinion, the main reason he's stayed this long.


Well, it's obvious that you are higher rank. What I'm trying to get to is, how much higher? Are you at the level of a fashion model or would you just consider yourself 'attractive'. I'm sure you know this even if you seem a little shy in expressing it. Based on your answer, I can probably guess you are not a fashion model 9 or 10, but an attractive woman in the 6-8 range. If that is the case, this is a good thing! Because it's much more likely for your husband to get himself up to a 6-8 rank than a 10.

As to your husband, the fact that he/was overweight I consider a good thing right now. Why? Because if he loses the weight and get's himself in shape, his sex rank can rise quite a bit without doing anything else at all! (not that he shouldn't work on his other issues, those that many are calling 'beta', but the point is there is a lot of hope for him to become MUCH more attractive than he is now)
Now, you may not see this right now. But it is VERY possible that if your husband changes his body and his attitude, you could fall in love with him and be sexually attracted to him. Especially based on this recent info that when you first dated there was a _little_ something there. A little something is much better than nothing.

Just to give you an example of how much things can change, I'll tell you a little about myself. I'm only 5'8 and I'm balding. My face is maybe a little better than average, but nothing great. When I was younger I was overweight and women avoided me like the plague. But in my 20's and 30's I got in fantastic shape and I can tell you that women were literally throwing themselves at me. Now that I'm going through a rough time, I put on a bunch of weight, and guess what? Women avoid me again! The change really can be that drastic. I'm working on losing the weight and getting in shape again, which is a huge confidence builder in and of itself, and once women start looking my way it all feeds on itself and I'll be inclined to work all the harder. There is absolutely NO reason your husband can't be like me. You can even help him with this, and get more healthy yourself, by learning about nutrition and keeping only nutritious foods in the house (assuming you move back in with your husband, which you should), working out together, et al.

I see a lot of hope in your situation. If you and your husband have a faith in God, there is always hope. Our God is a God of hope.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

janefw said:


> Evidently you're not a woman, so how can you pretend that you have any idea about a woman's sex drive? Have you ever read anything about it, and discovered that a woman's sex drive is dictated by her menstrual cycle? Do you know that the majority of women have more desire for sex just before ovulation? Do you know that women have testosterone in their bodies?
> 
> Before you make any more stupid, sexist statements about how women don't desire sex but are basically w.h.o.r.e.s who exchange sex for gifts, perhaps you could actually look up some *medical facts*.


I researched all of that within the first month of ILYNILWY I probably know as much published info on women's needs as anyone here. So I do have a pretty good idea of women's sex drives. Enough to know they are completely different from a mans.


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## CreekWalker (May 31, 2013)

I'm HD (going on a 7 weeks without stretch at the moment).

I think my H is handsome. BUT...it's not cool when he doesn't brush his teeth, won't go buy himself clothes (he's gained a lot of weight), doesn't shave, gets in bed without a shower when he needs one....and thinks it's funny to fart on me in bed. I also hate when he eats so much he's practically sick, and comes to bed. Why? I think it's to avoid me, possibly.

Honestly, nobody is super attractive when they don't bother. While I'm not saying I always look amazing...and frankly I'm not so worried about my waxing/shaving routine anymore (why bother), but...man I wish he'd at least try.

The only time he looked amazing, lost weight, and got himself together was when he had an affair. Lucky moi.

Fireflies...I wish there was an easy answer for you. Maybe get your hubby to do a 5k with you? Take him shopping for clothes? Pay some positive attention to him and see if he soaks it up like a sponge? Maybe? I mean...it's worth trying. It sounds like he might be a bit depressed.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Fireflies,

I am glad you didn't give up on TAM. 

Sometimes it's easier to ignore the noise if you block certain posters from your view. There is a way to do that. Offhand, I don't recall how. If you want help with that, PM me and I will dig it up.

There are many here who want this place to be helpful for you. And, some, like me, also hope to learn from your thoughts and experiences.

When folks seem to be making this thread about themselves or the "others" in general, I try to remember they are just hurting at some level. If that doesn't work, I try to remember where the people-filter is...


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I certainly did not mean to imply that you had someone already identified. Ratehr, you do have a sexual drive, want sex with someone (even if it s a faceless man), but no desire for sex with him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

fireflies said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just wanted it made clear that I'm not looking for someone else. 

Yes, that would be accurate. Oral sex has always been undesirable with him, but the act or thought in general does not sicken me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

wilderness said:


> Well, it's obvious that you are higher rank. What I'm trying to get to is, how much higher? Are you at the level of a fashion model or would you just consider yourself 'attractive'. I'm sure you know this even if you seem a little shy in expressing it. Based on your answer, I can probably guess you are not a fashion model 9 or 10, but an attractive woman in the 6-8 range. If that is the case, this is a good thing! Because it's much more likely for your husband to get himself up to a 6-8 rank than a 10.
> 
> As to your husband, the fact that he/was overweight I consider a good thing right now. Why? Because if he loses the weight and get's himself in shape, his sex rank can rise quite a bit without doing anything else at all! (not that he shouldn't work on his other issues, those that many are calling 'beta', but the point is there is a lot of hope for him to become MUCH more attractive than he is now)
> Now, you may not see this right now. But it is VERY possible that if your husband changes his body and his attitude, you could fall in love with him and be sexually attracted to him. Especially based on this recent info that when you first dated there was a _little_ something there. A little something is much better than nothing.
> ...


Well, I actually modeled some in my younger days, locally. I'm not a fashion model. I get complimented. But, I don't know enough or feel confident assigning a number.

And, here's the thing that concerns me, my husband has lost a lot of weight recently and I feel no differently. Is it possible, that, because he didn't make his physical appearance a priority for so many years and because my attraction to him was never extremely strong, that this can't be overcome. Too much lack of respect and resentment have developed, maybe?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

Sounds that way. You can't love someone you don't respect. He will need to man up and take the wheel and you can begin what will be a long reconciliation...I know, I'm in one. Two years after taking charge of everything from cooking to parenting to date nights and still not out of the woods.

Progress is better than hopeless inertia though.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

fireflies said:


> Well, I actually modeled some in my younger days, locally. I'm not a fashion model. I get complimented. But, I don't know enough or feel confident assigning a number.
> 
> And, here's the thing that concerns me, my husband has lost a lot of weight recently and I feel no differently. Is it possible, that, because he didn't make his physical appearance a priority for so many years and because my attraction to him was never extremely strong, that this can't be overcome. Too much lack of respect and resentment have developed, maybe?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I truly believe in my heart that if your husband steps to the plate, and you help him step to the plate, eventually you will be attracted to him. The catch is that it will not be easy, it will not be instant, and it will take a ton of work on both your parts.

As far as him losing weight, that is just one small aspect of attractiveness. I think you've touched on something important- _respect._ Before you become attracted to him, you must respect him. (that's my experience with women, anyway) So for now, I would focus on the respect issue before you even get to the attractive issue. How can you grow to respect him? Two ways-
1. He can earn it.
2. You can change your focus to admiring the qualities that he does have.

So a good strategy might be to lay out in very clear steps what it will take for you to respect him, while at the same time focusing all of your effort on trying to respect his positive qualities as he is now (and letting him know about the thing that you like about him, accordingly- building him up, in other words). Hopefully you and your husband can reverse the negative feedback loop that another poster alluded to. A positive feedback loop might be that your husband makes small changes at first that you can respect, he feels better about himself as a consequence, and you give him genuine compliments that you and he can feel good about (truth, no lies). Then he will feel better about himself and become encouraged to work harder, which will generate more respect from you, more genuine compliments and good feelings, etc etc...

Now some may say that your husband 'changing' is not right or fair- he is who he is, or something along those lines. I disagree emphatically. Why? Because of all the effeminate and non manly behaviour. That is not natural! Maybe he never had a good male role model growing up, or he was shy, who knows, but this is something that he probably needs to address whether married to you or not.

Another thing, if you are a former model this might be harder than I would have hoped.. Do you think you are still good looking enough to model? Also, your husband- just on a looks basis (not style or the way he carries himself), objectively, where does he stand? Athol Kay likes to do a simple 1-10 sex ranking system. 9s and 10s are very, very rare. These are the models and movie stars. 8s are still rare- mostly young people and naturally gifted people. Most of us fall into the 3-7 range. Looks are not the only thing that determines sex rank, btw. On a man things like income and social status go a long way as well.

Lastly, I have to again mention that the place to go to solve these problems is Jesus Christ. I'm just a man and I don't have all the answers. After having a frank, emotional, and honest discussion with your husband (because he needs to know), I encourage both you and your husband to reach out to Him.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

fireflies said:


> Well, I actually modeled some in my younger days, locally. I'm not a fashion model. I get complimented. But, I don't know enough or feel confident assigning a number.
> 
> And, here's the thing that concerns me, my husband has lost a lot of weight recently and I feel no differently. Is it possible, that, because he didn't make his physical appearance a priority for so many years and because my attraction to him was never extremely strong, that this can't be overcome. Too much lack of respect and resentment have developed, maybe?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you want to be attracted to him? Because I have to say the undercurrent I get from your posts is that you don't want to. The fact that you pick and chose which questions to answer (focusing on those that require him to do things) makes me wonder if you don't want to do your own hard work.

The thread started out about you being to blame, but has quickly turned into what a pathetic excuse for a man and a husband he is. You don't respect him, admire him or desire him, and only barely desired him in the beginning. It is not even clear that you like him.

So why do you want this to change? What are you getting out of the relationship? Why do you even want to want him?


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I researched all of that within the first month of ILYNILWY I probably know as much published info on women's needs as anyone here. So I do have a pretty good idea of women's sex drives. Enough to know they are completely different from a mans.


Funneh.

:lol:

Me thinks your lens is very dirty. Give it a bit of a clean eh?


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Do you want to be attracted to him? Because I have to say the undercurrent I get from your posts is that you don't want to. The fact that you pick and chose which questions to answer (focusing on those that require him to do things) makes me wonder if you don't want to do your own hard work.
> 
> The thread started out about you being to blame, but has quickly turned into what a pathetic excuse for a man and a husband he is. You don't respect him, admire him or desire him, and only barely desired him in the beginning. It is not even clear that you like him.
> 
> So why do you want this to change? What are you getting out of the relationship? Why do you even want to want him?


Yes, I want to want him. He's a nice guy with many good qualities. I have simply been identifying the qualities that are not attractive to me, because I was asked. He's my husband I do love him, maybe not in the right way, but I want to try to develop that. I've made a commitment and that's important to me. This site is one of my last resorts for help and I've gotten some great suggestions and have started planning what I need to do. As far as sounding negative, I'm scared. Scared that I can't change this after so many years of trying (in the wrong ways) and failing. It's an overwhelming thing to think about but I want to fix it. I've questioned my feelings for years and why they were as they were and why I was having trouble changing them. 

As far as not answering questions, what have I not answered? There are many posts here and I know I haven't responded to everything due to time issues. I am not dodging questions. I've tried to answer what seemed the most pertinent. What else needs answered to offer me advice?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

fireflies said:


> As far as sounding negative, I'm scared. Scared that I can't change this after so many years of trying (in the wrong ways) and failing. It's an overwhelming thing to think about but I want to fix it. I've questioned my feelings for years and why they were as they were and why I was having trouble changing them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is good you are reaching out for answers, new things to try.

I've forgotten if you have tried IC yet. If you haven't, and you get a good therapist, that's probably a good environment for examining exactly how you feel without fear of disapproval -- probably sort of different than here (though, this place has it's advantages sometimes, but too often disapproval is thrown at folks). 

I just started Married Man's Sex-life Primer by Athol Kay. Seems some folks on TAM really like it, and some really dislike it. All I can say is it seems to be one person's take on what helps and hurts attractiveness of a man to his wife. YMMV.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

fireflies said:


> As far as not answering questions, what have I not answered? There are many posts here and I know I haven't responded to everything due to time issues. I am not dodging questions. I've tried to answer what seemed the most pertinent. What else needs answered to offer me advice?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here are some you did not answer:

When you mentioned men flirting with you, I asked the following:

What happens when they do? Does it occur in front of your husband? If so, how do you react?

I will also add how does he react?


Another set of questions:



> *More than one person has said something to me before like, "You guys just don't seem to go together." Including our own son. I believe they meant that in more than one way.*
> 
> That is pretty brutal coming from his own son. How did that come up and what was your reaction? Consider that your lack of respect for him comes through to your kids. Part of the issue may be a feed back loop, where he has little confidence, you and others (including his own kids) don't respect him, which he sees and results in even less confidence. Repeat.


Any truth to the idea that you might be undermining him? Why is his son looking down on him? Do you defend him? In front of your son or others? Why not? Are any of your actions helping him or hurting him?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

One thing you mentioned before is that you feel fake.

I have a feeling that what you think is real, that is fake.

What you think is fake, that is real.

Confusing?

What it means is that maybe you have a fantasy of what marriage is, where feelings and meeting needs is all automatic. And that by "trying" to meet someone's needs, you are fake, or your husband is fake if he tries to meet your needs.

But a "real" marriage involves a woman trying through purposeful action to meet the needs of a man, and a man trying through purposeful action to meet the needs of a woman. Your purpose gives you fulfillment.


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Here are some you did not answer:
> 
> When you mentioned men flirting with you, I asked the following:
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Here are some you did not answer:
> 
> When you mentioned men flirting with you, I asked the following:
> 
> ...


Men have casually flirted with me in front of my husband and then some has happened when he wasn't there. It's harmless. My husband isn't bothered by it, actually, saying to me, "you do turn some heads". Flirting doesn't happen often, I was just trying to answer that sec rank question. 

No, I do not undermine him and I'm confident he would tell you the same. I said our son made the comment that we just didn't go together. I didn't say he looked down on his father. He said that one day when we were talking about fitness and its importance. Then, he made that comment. He's an older teenager and he obviously notices the differences in us, but I do not undermine him or put him down. If fact over the years, with regard to weight,I've encouraged him by trying to introduce healthy eating, exercise, etc. I also encouraged him to seek individual counseling to help with the weight and individual issues. He's chosen not to. 

I do defend him to others including our son. He obviously notices I make most decisions around here, maybe that speaks to him. There is normal father/son tension with them at times and when I need to get involved, I do. Taking up for my husband as needed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

People are making assumptions. Yes, I probably have lost some respect for my husband due to his lack of interest in taking care of himself. That has affected his attractiveness. Is that so unusual? Anyone else out there think they would lose some respect for their spouse if they gained 100lbs and even when encouraged by the spouse to do better, they don't. I understand that my actions not giving him enough sex have contributed, he hasn't bought into my theories. We done counseling and I do individual counseling, he doesn't. I'm sure it's easy to put me down because of our sexless marriage. I understand this has affected him. I'm trying to paint the picture clearly and I know I have much blame in this, but to assume I'm cruel and heartless isn't fair. He's a great person. I care for him, I defend him, I've taken care of his needs with the exception of one big one and that's why I'm here. Too try to change that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

fireflies said:


> No, I do not undermine him and I'm confident he would tell you the same. I said our son made the comment that we just didn't go together. I didn't say he looked down on his father. He said that one day when we were talking about fitness and its importance. Then, he made that comment. He's an older teenager and he obviously notices the differences in us, but I do not undermine him or put him down. If fact over the years, with regard to weight,I've encouraged him by trying to introduce healthy eating, exercise, etc. I also encouraged him to seek individual counseling to help with the weight and individual issues. He's chosen not to.
> 
> I do defend him to others including our son. He obviously notices I make most decisions around here, maybe that speaks to him. There is normal father/son tension with them at times and when I need to get involved, I do. Taking up for my husband as needed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for the clarification. How did it occur that you make most of the decisions. Was it always this way, or did it evolve? What happens when he is given control over a decision? Do you ever step in? Does he ever step in for you?


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> The answer lies in these truths about sex for women/wives...
> 
> They don't have the same drive
> The monotony of the same partner, repetitive cycle.
> ...


"no women rape men". This is strictly false. Absolutely and totally false. It can and does happen. I know this because it's happened to a man i know. The woman dosed him and used his disorientation to take advantage of him. And yes, a man's body can respond against his will. Even women sometimes report orgasm during rape. The body has a mind of its own. Boys and men CAN be raped!!! Get clear on that, and don't push their genuine suffering under the rug.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Women may "like" it but the drive for "it" is not there.
> 
> Face it Women who have great sex with their husbands do so for some other reason than sex drive.
> 
> ...


This is such bullsh*t. I think about sex all day long, touch myself often, and am a wildcat of lust. I get tormented by my sex drive as much or more than any guy i know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Thanks for the clarification. How did it occur that you make most of the decisions. Was it always this way, or did it evolve? What happens when he is given control over a decision? Do you ever step in? Does he ever step in for you?


I came from a family where was very responsible and independent because I had to be. No one else was taking care of things. He came from a family where his mother did everything for him. So, we continued those roles into our marriage. If I ask him to take care if something, he usually turns to me for help. Now, I'm not saying he's helpless. He has a very demanding job. At home, I've always made financial decision, child rearing decision, etc. We discuss things, but when it comes done to it, I have the final say in most things. Honestly, again, I don't think he feels confident doing so. In most cases, he thinks I'm more qualified to handle things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fireflies (Jun 16, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> It is good you are reaching out for answers, new things to try.
> 
> I've forgotten if you have tried IC yet. If you haven't, and you get a good therapist, that's probably a good environment for examining exactly how you feel without fear of disapproval -- probably sort of different than here (though, this place has it's advantages sometimes, but too often disapproval is thrown at folks).
> 
> I just started Married Man's Sex-life Primer by Athol Kay. Seems some folks on TAM really like it, and some really dislike it. All I can say is it seems to be one person's take on what helps and hurts attractiveness of a man to his wife. YMMV.


Yes, I'm in counseling, he chooses not to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mark72 (May 26, 2012)

fireflies said:


> Yes, I'm in counseling, he chooses not to be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It may be time for some persuasion for him to be there with you. He might be burying his head in the sand hoping that a D Day never happens. I know I did. He may just the whole situation too stressful to address. Anxieties do that to people. But anxieties can be overcome. Are you willing to help him overcome them?

As far as his weight gain, I know it's hard to ignore that. After marriage, I lost some weight and my wife gained a significant amount. I've tried to tell her that I love her regardless - and I do. And I am still attracted to her. But honestly I'd really like her to get back to the weight she was pre-wedding, or at least close (after the baby is born of course)
It took me a while but I assigned less value to her weight than I did as she was gaining. I don't think anyone would fault you for wanting him to take care of himself. 
The problem will be his willingness to do the work. If he is willing to work on himself, I really think your opinion of him will change over time. If you have to hold his hand through it, so be it. I'd think that is better than the way things are now.


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

fireflies said:


> And, I've prayed the entire marriage for help. I'll be honest, I've questioned and become angry at God for not helping me change.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fireflies...get a divorce.

Just file for divorce. Why are you torturing yourself and him? 

You act like divorce is the absolute end of the world. It's not. I am a supporter of marriages as long as they are healthty and mutually beneficial to both parties.

You and your husband may have a legal association here, but this is in no way shape or form a marriage.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

fireflies said:


> I came from a family where was very responsible and independent because I had to be. No one else was taking care of things. He came from a family where his mother did everything for him. So, we continued those roles into our marriage. If I ask him to take care if something, he usually turns to me for help. Now, I'm not saying he's helpless. He has a very demanding job. At home, I've always made financial decision, child rearing decision, etc. We discuss things, but when it comes done to it, I have the final say in most things. Honestly, again, I don't think he feels confident doing so. In most cases, he thinks I'm more qualified to handle things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you give him things to take control of? Is see how you two defaulted to this, but what have you done to change it? Just saying you want him to take control is not going to help. So, for example, have you two decided on a home improvement project, then given it to him to control and complete, with no input? Or do you provide "suggestions" or fix things when it looks like they will go wrong?


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## Mark72 (May 26, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Do you give him things to take control of? Is see how you two defaulted to this, but what have you done to change it? Just saying you want him to take control is not going to help. So, for example, have you two decided on a home improvement project, then given it to him to control and complete, with no input? Or do you provide "suggestions" or fix things when it looks like they will go wrong?


Maybe start simple: "Honey, I was thinking ____________.... What do you think? Ok, that sounds good..."


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Mark72 said:


> Maybe start simple: "Honey, I was thinking ____________.... What do you think? Ok, that sounds good..."


To me, that sounds almost too much like giving him the answer.

I would give him a small project to handle, discuss at a high level what you two want (a room painted or shelves put up) and *then completely step away*. Don't suggest anything, don't offer any advice, nothing. Anything he suggests, you say "If you think that is best, then go for it. I trust you."

My guess is that the OP unintentionally undercuts him. Based on her description, he defers to her, she strongly states her opinions, and when they disagree, she wins. Nothing evil or nasty in intent, but based on her description, I suspect they feed off each other. She does not trust him to get things done (based on her past and his behavior) and he figures why bother to try because she is going to tell me what to do anyway (based on their past and his natural disposition). She needs to break the cycle to have any chance of changing things. Then it is up to him to step up.

One thing to remember is that this has been going on for a long time. It is not going to change over night.


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