# Should I call off my wedding?



## arnold81

I'm in a terrible place and I need some advice. I live in Palo Alto but I'm originally from Virginia. I met a woman on a dating site almost 2 years ago. She is from my hometown back in VA. We talked for 6 months before meeting in person. I've met her back in Va numerous times and she has visited me here in quite a few times. I proposed back in November and she accepted. I was sure that she was the one and I loved her to the point where I know I wanted to spend my life with her. This past April, I finally decided to let her meet my family. I invited her to my home in VA and she met my parents, both my sisters, and my brother. Everything went well and everyone seemed to like her. Since November, we've been making wedding plans, making reservations, preparing invitations. Our big day is supposed to be next month in July. Last week, I was home visiting and my brother called and said he needed to talk to me about something. He told me that there is something burning inside him and that he needed to tell me something. I could not imagine what it was but the news was that he knew my fiancee back in college. He said that she was quite the party girl and made her way around. He didn't want me to hear it from anyone else but he said that he, along with numerous other men at their school, slept with her. He said that he participated in a 3 way with her and another man. I didn't think he was telling the truth but I was stupid enough to ask for details. He talked about how they would get crazy drunk and she would sleep with him along with other numerous men. He said she had no shame and would routinely let men finish in her mouth and on her body. All in all, she was a real *****.

Still, I couldn't believe this. I asked a couple friends around town and I found out it was the truth. Their stories weren't as graphic but I could tell by their expressions that something more went on. I then confronted her about it and she first denied it. I kept bringing up names and dates and she eventually broke down crying and told me it was the truth. She said that she is "reformed" and doesn't participate in that behavior before. What hurts the most is that we are celibate until marriage. She never said that she was a virgin but she said that she wanted to wait until marriage for sex. I myself have never had sex before but I wanted our first time to be special on our wedding night. Although she hasn't cheated on me from what I know, I keep having these images of her in my head with my brother and other men. Also, she specifically told me that she isn't into oral and anal and I was fine with that. I love a woman that respects her body. However, I found that she has done both of these things with other men. I just feel like I'm the laughing stock of everybody at home. I feel like I'm getting the leftovers. I'm pretty successful in my career and I'm pulling 90k right now. My brother and the rest of his friends are barely pulling half that. Most of those guys are mostly jocks and knuckleheads while I've always been the one to bust my ass in school and in life. I feel like she had her fun and is settling with my because of my future. Maybe I'm wrong but that's how I feel. My mother says I should give her a chance but I'm not feeling good about this. However, I also feel bad about calling off the wedding since I've made a lot of promises to her. As stupid as it sounds, I still love her. I don't know what I'm thinking and maybe I'm rambling but any advice would be helpful.


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## Evinrude58

Restless they are........

If you're for real, yes, you should cancel. Why do you even need to ask? Unless you don't mind having that kind of woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985

Nope


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## maritalloneliness

Are we still adhering to double standards. If the situation was reversed and it was the girl who found out that her soon to be husband was a ***** monger, would we encourage her to break off the wedding. Everyone has a past nowadays, it is foolish to think that we would never run across a partner's ex lover . Now from what you posted , she has been faithful to you and your relationship. I assume that to wait for the wedding night was a mutual decision. You're punishing her for what she did in the past and not appreciating the person she is today. What do people mean when they say "I love you" when conditions are placed on that love for things that happened in the past. The wedding vows shouldn't say until death do we part instead it should state until I find out about your sexual past or until you piss me off or until I get tired of you. What the hell, why marry at all?


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## foolscotton3

Cmon man, everybody is doing it.

Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


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## arnold81

maritalloneliness said:


> Are we still adhering to double standards. If the situation was reversed and it was the girl who found out that her soon to be husband was a ***** monger, would we encourage her to break off the wedding. Everyone has a past nowadays, it is foolish to think that we would never run across a partner's ex lover . Now from what you posted , she has been faithful to you and your relationship. I assume that to wait for the wedding night was a mutual decision. You're punishing her for what she did in the past and not appreciating the person she is today. What do people mean when they say "I love you" when conditions are placed on that love for things that happened in the past. The wedding vows shouldn't say until death do we part instead it should state until I find out about your sexual past or until you piss me off or until I get tired of you. What the hell, why marry at all?


I understand that and I do feel guilty about punishing her for her past. However, for all this time, I thought she was more pure if that makes any sense. She told me about previous boyfriends but never about sleeping with random men at house parties. Not to mention my own brother. If I could at least get the images out of my head, then that would be helpful but right now, it's all I can think about when we talk.


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## GusPolinski

Almost everyone has a past these days, so I'd cut her a break there. And for all you know, at least some of that behavior could have been fueled by some sort of trauma.

That said, if you feel that you were mislead w/ respect to her stance on pre-marital sex (specifically, whether she was a virgin, and even if she *technically* never said that she was a virgin), then yeah... you should probably call of the wedding, at least for now.

(Also, I'm not sure I could get images of her w/ my brother and some other dude out of my head. Sorry, but that's just weird.)

Question... does your brother not share your values w/ respect to pre-marital sex? Were the two of you raised in the same household? How far apart are the two of you (you and your brother) in terms of age?

ETA: Should you choose to move forward w/ this relationship, you should probably insist on a full battery of STD tests. I don't bring this up as a means to "punish" her, per se, but rather to just be safe. It's just common sense.


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## maritalloneliness

arnold81 said:


> I understand that and I do feel guilty about punishing her for her past. However, for all this time, I thought she was more pure if that makes any sense. She told me about previous boyfriends but never about sleeping with random men at house parties. Not to mention my own brother. If I could at least get the images out of my head, then that would be helpful but right now, it's all I can think about when we talk.


Not saying that it's not difficult as for myself my DH cheated with my SIL and Im still having images of him being intimate with her and doing the same intimate things he does with me that he did with her. You're the only one who knows if this is something you can live with. As you're not married and don't have children, take time out to figure what you want.


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## EleGirl

How old are the two of you?

You should call off the wedding.

Why? Because you are punishing her (your words) and your attitude about this is not going to get any better. The marriage is not going to work out for you.


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## Naku

There is no double standard. Men don't want to marry a woman with a high partner count, women don't care. To each his own.

All those guys who did all those things with her, things you'll never do - didn't have to wait. She's made you wait. She didn't lie to you, but she surely didn't show her real self. 

You're less likely to have a successful marriage with such a person. Plus, you won't be able to go to the mall and wonder how many guys in the shoe store have let one go on her, even your brother. Sorry dude, but you're lucky to get out now. No one will begrudge you.

Here are a few things to read
https://heartiste.wordpress.com/200...xual-partners-unhappy-marriage_n_5698440.html


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## maritalloneliness

Naku said:


> There is no double standard. Men don't want to marry a woman with a high partner count, women don't care. To each his own.
> 
> All those guys who did all those things with her, things you'll never do - didn't have to wait. She's made you wait. She didn't lie to you, but she surely didn't show her real self.
> 
> You're less likely to have a successful marriage with such a person. Plus, you won't be able to go to the mall and wonder how many guys in the shoe store have let one go on her, even your brother. Sorry dude, but you're lucky to get out now. No one will begrudge you.
> 
> Here are a few things to read
> https://heartiste.wordpress.com/200...xual-partners-unhappy-marriage_n_5698440.html




You are wrong women do care. Maybe, women need to hold men to the same standards as men opinions of having multiple sex partners.


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## MattMatt

Is your brother telling the truth? Or is he exaggerating?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## becareful

When you confronted her, she denied. Had you not given names and places, she would have continued to deny. If this happened during a marriage, you'd never get the truth out of her unless you have damning evidence. That's all you need to know. Take your chance with someone else.

Run.


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## becareful

maritalloneliness said:


> Are we still adhering to double standards. If the situation was reversed and it was the girl who found out that her soon to be husband was a ***** monger, would we encourage her to break off the wedding. Everyone has a past nowadays, it is foolish to think that we would never run across a partner's ex lover . Now from what you posted , she has been faithful to you and your relationship. I assume that to wait for the wedding night was a mutual decision. You're punishing her for what she did in the past and not appreciating the person she is today. What do people mean when they say "I love you" when conditions are placed on that love for things that happened in the past. The wedding vows shouldn't say until death do we part instead it should state until I find out about your sexual past or until you piss me off or until I get tired of you. What the hell, why marry at all?


If the soon-to-be husband was the town wh0re and lied about it when asked, then yeah, call off the wedding. To me, the denial casts doubt on her trustworthiness.


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## GusPolinski

maritalloneliness said:


> You are wrong women do care. Maybe, women need to hold men to the same standards as men opinions of having multiple sex partners.


I don't see a problem w/ that.

But would women be more apt to hold a _high_ previous partner count or a _low_ previous partner count against a prospective suitor?

Either way, everyone is allowed to use whatever criteria they like to determine compatibility w/ or marriageability of a prospective partner.


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## maritalloneliness

GusPolinski said:


> I don't see a problem w/ that.
> 
> But would women be more apt to hold a _high_ previous partner count or a _low_ previous partner count against a prospective suitor?
> 
> Either way, everyone is allowed to use whatever criteria they like to determine compatibility w/ or marriageability of a prospective partner.


I agree. It depends on the individual. I just don't like when she's reference to being a "wh*re". I've known some women who feels the more a guy is experienced the better so they would frown on a guy who has a low partner count. Whereas, I've also known some who would be disgusted with a guy who has a high partner count so it definitely depends on the person.


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## smi11ie

You simply cannot marry a woman who has been assf#%ked by your brother.


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## bfree

If you are truly in love with this woman have you considered pre marital counseling?


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## bandit.45

No one is obligated to marry anyone.

Who cares about what she did or how many men she banged? She feels guilty about her past or she wouldn't have hidden it from him when he asked her if she had sex with his brother. She should have told him immediately and not denied it. 

He has a certain standard he wanted her to meet and she failed the interview. She doesn't get the job. 

OP, move on to the next candidate and let your fiancée go be a guilty nun with some other sucker. She would most likely have cheated on you down the road, because she is one of those misguided women who believe that wives should not do naughty things sexually with their husbands. Only strangers get to enjoy her naughty side, and at some point she would not have been able to hold back her inner slvt. That is not the kind of messed up, confused person you want to be with.


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## arnold81

GusPolinski said:


> Almost everyone has a past these days, so I'd cut her a break there. And for all you know, at least some of that behavior could have been fueled by some sort of trauma.
> 
> That said, if you feel that you were mislead w/ respect to her stance on pre-marital sex (specifically, whether she was a virgin, and even if she *technically* never said that she was a virgin), then yeah... you should probably call of the wedding, at least for now.
> 
> (Also, I'm not sure I could get images of her w/ my brother and some other dude out of my head. Sorry, but that's just weird.)
> 
> Question... does your brother not share your values w/ respect to pre-marital sex? Were the two of you raised in the same household? How far apart are the two of you (you and your brother) in terms of age?
> 
> ETA: Should you choose to move forward w/ this relationship, you should probably insist on a full battery of STD tests. I don't bring this up as a means to "punish" her, per se, but rather to just be safe. It's just common sense.


He is 7 years younger than me and is quite the ladies man. He doesn't share the same views about sex as me but I don't blame it since it's his life. We grew up in the same household but we have different fathers. Thanks for the STD recommendation. It hadn't crossed my mind since we haven't did anything outside of kissing but I will bring this up to her and see how it feels.


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## arnold81

MattMatt said:


> Is your brother telling the truth? Or is he exaggerating?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's telling the truth and he even went the extra mile and gave details when I asked. Other men have confirmed it as well as her so I'm sure it's all real.


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## arnold81

EleGirl said:


> How old are the two of you?
> 
> You should call off the wedding.
> 
> Why? Because you are punishing her (your words) and your attitude about this is not going to get any better. The marriage is not going to work out for you.


I'm 34, he is 27, and she just turned 26. Question though, why wouldn't I ever feel better? Obviously, I'm pissed about this but still, I love her and have feelings about this. It's kind of hard to feel that I will never feel better about this so I'm curious as to why. After reading more here, I'm starting to feel like I'm dodging a major bullet since we don't have any kids or property. Although she has never cheated, I would have nobody but myself to blame if we got married and I found out she cheated.


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## bandit.45

arnold81 said:


> I'm 34, he is 27, and she just turned 26. Question though, why wouldn't I ever feel better? Obviously, I'm pissed about this but still, I love her and have feelings about this. It's kind of hard to feel that I will never feel better about this so I'm curious as to why. After reading more here, I'm starting to feel like I'm dodging a major bullet since we don't have any kids or property. Although she has never cheated, I would have nobody but myself to blame if we got married and I found out she cheated.


I know you are hurting man, but the sooner you snip off the diseased branch the sooner you can heal. 

Your girlfriend may be a good person. She may say all the right things, be great with kids, give her time to the poor and needy, but she is not authentic. She should have been honest and up front with you the moment you asked her about your brother and her past sexual history. 

She passed herself off as someone she is not, because she is now recognizing that all that freewheeling fun she had in college comes with a steep price tag. She is now learning that her past promiscuity is disqualifying her from marriage with a large cross section of potential husbands. 

So....she misrepresents herself, like many unqualified candidates looking to score a high paying job do. That is fraud. That is manipulation. 

Let her go, hurt, heal, and move on. There will be a better woman coming along soon.


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## Satya

We all have a past, but the fact that she'd rather be dishonest than honest about it with you is the telling aspect of this situation. She was probably afraid you'd think less of her or judge her, and you are on both those counts. 

I'm not saying it's wrong of you to feel the way you do either. She couldn't own her past and didn't feel prepared (or comfortable enough) to tell you about it. She was going to proceed to lead you down one path when she'd walked a few miles already down another.

This is not a new phenomenon. It happens quite a lot. My only gripe is that couples intending to stay together long term should have no secrets. I especially feel this is the case when there is a part of one person's past that has the potential to cause great harm to the integrity of the relationship, should it become known. 

Would you think you'd feel differently if she had admitted her past to you in person? Rather than finding out from a third party (your brother)?


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## foolscotton3

Most women are not like her, that behaviour probably shows in other areas of her life. I get that women change, maybe she has the bug, she's not getting any younger, all her friends are married and she feels like she wasted her time bouncing from one c0ck to the next (literally) but that recklessness probably shows in other parts of her life.

Have you checked her credit history?

I would pass on this one, and be glad you found all this out before you were married.

Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


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## MattMatt

arnold81 said:


> He's telling the truth and he even went the extra mile and gave details when I asked. Other men have confirmed it as well as her so I'm sure it's all real.


Then you must speak with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lostinthought61

Here is the problem as i see it, and this is where the level playing field will come into play in your marriage, once you get married, you will constantly wondering in the back of your mind how did i perform compared to the other guys, did she do this with the other guys, or why won't she do this with me, every time you see her talk to someone you will be wondering did she sleep with him, the bottom line is that this will drive you crazy if you let it...so you have two choices...dump her or marry her and put the past in the past...if you can. because if you marry her and you can't dump her past, then you are screwed and not in a good way. So be honest with yourself can you let it go?


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## TX-SC

I wouldn't marry her, but that's just me. Do what YOU feel is right for you.


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## badmemory

Surely your GF remembered her tryst with your brother. It's hard to imagine she didn't. Yet she didn't tell you about it. That deceit would bother me as much as anything.

And I agree with Bandit; her view on withholding sex and having off limit sexual boundaries, given her past; seems totally self centered and distorted to me.

I would at the very least, postpone the wedding to see if you feel you can or want to work through these issues.


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## 225985

So you meet this woman online, turns out she slept with your brother???, he does not bother to tell you until months later???, she does not tell your either or not remember???, you have more friends that somehow can confirm she was loose in college???, and now you are not getting any until marriage???

ETA: Oh, and BTW you just happen to be a 34 yo virgin along too???


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## LosingHim

EVERYONE has a past. You’ll be hard pressed to find a woman these days that hasn’t had multiple sex partners. People start young these days, so by the time they’re 26, most of them have had multiple partners and around here usually a child or two. 

I have a past, my husband has a past. When we have talked about our pasts, I have basically told him that I really only want to know if a certain female was a past sexual partner if there was a chance that I would be around her. I don’t need to know about some chic he had a one night stand with on Spring Break when he was 20. But for instance, a friend of ours was engaged to a girl (let’s call her Tina). Tina was 4 years younger than our friend, so about the same age as my husband. Tina hung around with us quite a bit when they were together. For 2 years. One day, my friend was talking to me about Tina and he said “I had a hard time when I first started dating Tina, knowing that she and J slept together a lot in high school”. Total blindside and I was pissed. I had befriended this girl and occasionally even talked about my relationship with J to this girl. Not knowing the whole time that she’d seen him naked. It didn’t make me feel very comfortable. Especially then looking back and knowing that every time she came around she always gave J a hug and was always so nice to him. It put doubts of her motives into my head. J looked at it as, “it was the past, they were never in a relationship, she was just a girl he slept with in high school”. To me, I would’ve liked to have gone into that friendship with eyes wide open. I’m past it now, our friend and her have since split up, she’s married and divorced and is now a junky. These days I joke with him and say “Well….you could’ve ended up with Tina”. But it did take some time to process and get past the fact that he didn’t tell me beforehand.

I don’t think it’s right to hold someone’s past against them. There could be any number of reasons that a person did what they did. If they’ve changed and left that sordid part of them behind, then only you can decide if you can deal with their past. But you can’t make that choice without 100% honesty. That is the key take away in all of this.


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## Graywolf2

arnold81 said:


> I'm pretty successful in my career and I'm pulling 90k right now. My brother and the rest of his friends are barely pulling half that. Most of those guys are mostly jocks and knuckleheads while I've always been the one to bust my ass in school and in life. I feel like she had her fun and is settling with my because of my future.


I have a friend who is a nerd. He couldn’t get a date in his 20’s because most of the women wanted the hot bad boys. Now he’s in his 30’s and the same women that wouldn’t give him the time of day are scratching at his door. Of course they’re divorced from and/or have a kid with a bad boy.


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## Jasel

It's really up to you. If I was in your shoes I'd cancel it. Moreso due to the fact that she had a 3 way with my brother and pretty much everyone I'm close to knows the extent of her sexual history and seemed perfectly fine keeping it from you, including her.

And don't let anyone beat you over the head about double standards. There are plenty that work against both genders when it comes to love, sex, and relationships. Hell a girl I was with in college had over 50 sexual partners including 3 of my close friends by the time she was 20 which didn't bother me because I thought she was pretty cool. But when she found out she was only my 3rd sexual partner she kicked me to the curb on the spot. There is a thread over on Loveshack where a woman went to a party, got drunk, cheated on her boyfriend with a ONS, got pregnant by the random guy whose name she didn't even know, and half the people there are holding her hand and telling her how brave and strong she is. You think she'd get that same response if she had been a man, got drunk, cheated and knocked up some random ONS?? Double standards go both ways.

Like I said, at the end of the day it's up to you. You still loving her is completely normal. It's not like she murdered your mother and your love turned off like a light switch. But you need to ask if this is something you can live with. I personally don't find the born again virgin types appealing in the slightest but to each his own. You need to ask yourself if you can live with her past and everyone knowing it throughout your marriage. And if you can't that's nothing to feel guilty about and doesn't make you a bad guy. But just because you love her doesn't necessarily mean you _can_ deal with it or even have to.


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## Capster

IMHO, the best move would be to postpone the wedding, live together for a while, forget about waiting until marriage and start having sex now (to make sure you are sexually compatable), and see what kind of girl she really is over time.


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## Maxo

Satya said:


> We all have a past, but the fact that she'd rather be dishonest than honest about it with you is the telling aspect of this situation. She was probably afraid you'd think less of her or judge her, and you are on both those counts.
> 
> I'm not saying it's wrong of you to feel the way you do either. She couldn't own her past and didn't feel prepared (or comfortable enough) to tell you about it. She was going to proceed to lead you down one path when she'd walked a few miles already down another.
> 
> This is not a new phenomenon. It happens quite a lot. My only gripe is that couples intending to stay together long term should have no secrets. I especially feel this is the case when there is a part of one person's past that has the potential to cause great harm to the integrity of the relationship, should it become known.
> 
> Would you think you'd feel differently if she had admitted her past to you in person? Rather than finding out from a third party (your brother)?


This is right on, IMO. I cannot imagine why she would not have disclosed this re your brother from the very start if she wanted any chance at a relationship with you. She must have been on pins and needles waiting for the revelation. 
I think she must be disturbed to have kept this from you.


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## 225985

Have sex with her before the wedding. If it is not absolutely awesome, cancel the wedding. Don't bother with postponement.


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## Maxo

foolscotton3 said:


> Most women are not like her, that behaviour probably shows in other areas of her life. I get that women change, maybe she has the bug, she's not getting any younger, all her friends are married and she feels like she wasted her time bouncing from one c0ck to the next (literally) but that recklessness probably shows in other parts of her life.
> 
> Have you checked her credit history?
> 
> I would pass on this one, and be glad you found all this out before you were married.
> 
> Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


I have that there is a relationship between past promiscuity, starting sex at an early age, and infidelity. You might want to research that.


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## Truthseeker1

Graywolf2 said:


> I have a friend who is a nerd. He couldn’t get a date in his 20’s because most of the women wanted the hot bad boys. Now he’s in his 30’s and the same women that wouldn’t give him the time of day are scratching at his door. Of course they’re divorced from and/or have a kid with a bad boy.


I hope he is smart enough to have his fun and not get mixed up with any of them on a permanent basis...when they had the social capital they used it to their advantage and so should he...


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## JohnA

First: as to @Naku recommendation, it is a site that provides a how to guide on how to further victimize broken woman who have endured CSA and physical abuse. It views woman as prey nothing more. 

I do not know if you have the wisdom and compassion to marry her, not because of her sexual past per say but the events in her life that formed her. Some might say I am jumping to conclusion but when I read about cases like this I have to assume either she had been victimize in the past or this is an exercise for creative writing for penthouse forum. 

Take the time to to learn about the effects of CSA, BPD, NPD to avoid future problems.


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## Truthseeker1

@arnold81 - let me get this straight she makes you wait since she had her fun and is now "reformed" and when confronted her first instinct was to lie...at the VERY least you need to postpone it...I'd seriously reconsider committing to her...


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## jnj express

Kids start at age 13 and 14, these days-------those in college, many are on their own for the 1st time, and freewheel it, they get into everything, there are those who do not----your fiance----should have been up front with you from the beginning, that would have helped, you can hold the lying agst her, you can't hold her past agst her----maybe she has reformed, that is why she wanted to wait till your wedding night-----this is all on you----if her past activities are going to fester, then the mge has major problems before it even starts----also you haven't addressed the fact as to whether the 2 of you are gonna continue to be long distance, or is she gonna move to Stanford, whoops Palo Alto with you. You will have major problems mentally if she has to stay back in Va. until the two of you are together permanently, Another thing that is gonna gnaw, is knowing your brother did kinky things with her---------Sounds like your mge probably should be sent packing, but the only real dig against her, is that she lied to you----she should have been upfront, and said---yes I have a past, most everybody does, but that is not me now, and I can and will make this mge. work----she didn't do that------but once again, this all depends upon what you want, and the level of misery you will tolerate!!!!


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## karole

How is her relationship with her father? Sometimes, when girls/women exhibit this type behavior at a young age, they didn't have a very good male influence in their lives. Not making excuses for her, but it may be something to think about.

I would most likely cancel the wedding. Not because of her past, but because she was deceptive and wasn't up front with you. I can understand not bringing up her past at the beginning of your relationship; however, she should have told you of it once the two of you began talking marriage. 

Best of luck to you.


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## Graywolf2

Jasel said:


> And don't let anyone beat you over the head about double standards.


Yes, everyone has a past but not everyone has a porn star past or a porn star past with your brother. She may be very nice but she has issues. Family of origin issues are frequently used to explain having affairs on this board. 

Do you what to start a life with someone with that much baggage? *You are not an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer. * You don’t have to hire her.


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## Truthseeker1

Graywolf2 said:


> Yes, everyone has a past but not everyone has a porn star past or a porn star past with your brother. She may be very nice but she has issues. Family of origin issues are frequently used to explain having affairs on this board.
> 
> Do you what to start a life with someone with that much baggage? *You are not an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer. * You don’t have to hire her.


BINGO! If her first instinct is to lie to the man she is going to marry when confronted about her past how "reformed" is she...Arnold if you live in California and have a good job go and enjoy life you don't need to be saddled with this bullsh!t..remember a knight in shining armor only exists in fairy tales they are not real...


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## SasZ79

The problem is not only her past.
Some time ago i read about a guy and his wife he found out his wife had a past like your fiance and she declined him all this years of marriage oral anal and regular sex. In the end he knew the only thing his wife wanted was breadwinner.


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## Truthseeker1

SasZ79 said:


> The problem is not only her past.
> Some time ago i read about a guy and his wife he found out his wife had a past like your fiance and she declined him all this years of marriage oral anal and regular sex. In the end he knew the only thing his wife wanted was breadwinner.


If someone is a single professional they have enough social capital to pick a worthy partner...i cant see being saddled with all this bullsh!t before marriage...

also if someone has wild past and now wants to be a frump why the hell would I take that deal...I knew a girl like this...she is still single..


----------



## MyRevelation

I would venture a guess that most of the BH's here have looked back in time and pinpointed a moment when our picker malfunctioned and we ignored some pretty obvious red flags. THIS is your moment. I hope you don't ignore it like many of us did.

Also, don't minimize the fact that when confronted, her first instinct was to LIE to you. THAT is a huge red flag adorned with sparklers and flashing lights.

Personally, I'd cancel the wedding and go buy your brother a barrel of his favorite adult recreational beverage. He did you a solid by manning up and telling you the truth about your fiance ... something that she wouldn't do for you. One of those two really loves you and has your back and it's not your fiance. Dwell on that for a moment.


----------



## Truthseeker1

MyRevelation said:


> Personally, I'd cancel the wedding and go buy your brother a barrel of his favorite adult recreational beverage. He did you a solid by manning up and telling you the truth about your fiance ... something that she wouldn't do for you. One of those two really loves you and has your back and it's not your fiance. Dwell on that for a moment.


His brother did do him a big favor...I've seen cases like this before but often times it is too late and the spouse who gets lied to is told to suck it up


----------



## MEM2020

Arnold,
I will try to help you understand what actually matters - based on being 25 years into a very good marriage.

The sort of darkly comedic aspect of this thread is that - no one has even touched - the drivers that will determine whether your marriage succeeds.

You are 34, and still a virgin. This, despite having a very good job.

That means you are either very religious, or not all that interested in sex or you have some issues that seriously handicap you socially. 

I will net this out for you as simply as possible. 

You haven't said a single thing - about your or her attraction for each other. 

Do you kiss? Do you CRAVE each other physically?

She probably likes sex. If you don't - that's gonna be a big issue.

She probably likes sex. If she isn't attracted to you - that's gonna be a big issue. 

History fades.

Compatibility rules.




arnold81 said:


> He is 7 years younger than me and is quite the ladies man. He doesn't share the same views about sex as me but I don't blame it since it's his life. We grew up in the same household but we have different fathers. Thanks for the STD recommendation. It hadn't crossed my mind since we haven't did anything outside of kissing but I will bring this up to her and see how it feels.


----------



## foolscotton3

Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


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## LucasJackson

Nice piece of fiction but there are sites like literotica.com that are more appropriate for it.


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## Marduk

Listen man. Everybody's got a past. I say that as a guy who has a past.

I would never marry a woman that wasn't somewhat sexually experienced. I just wouldn't. 

If you can't deal with her past, then sure break up with her. But realize it's your problem, not hers. Unless you asked her about her past and she lied to you... It has nothing to do with you.

And lots of guys would be very willing to marry a woman who like to do a lot of the things you describe. Go look in the "sex in marriage" section and you'll find post after post where men try to get their wives to do lots of those things.

She likes sex. This is good. She's open to somewhat kinky stuff. This is good. She's trying to fly the straight and narrow and restrict her sexuality to just one man and has the discipline to take that sex drive and wait. This is good.

All I see is mostly good stuff here, man. 

To be a woman's first lover is nothing. To be her last is everything. If she's been with sexy men and had great sex and is choosing you... That means that she can have those things... And chooses you because you're what she wants.


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## Truthseeker1

@marduk when confronted her first instinct WAS to lie:

*"I then confronted her about it and she first denied it. I kept bringing up names and dates and she eventually broke down crying and told me it was the truth."*

Furthermore everyone has different standards and there are nothing wrong with the OPs...


----------



## karole

One more thought: If you decide to marry her, get a pre-nup in place before the wedding.


----------



## Marduk

Truthseeker1 said:


> @marduk when confronted her first instinct WAS to lie:
> 
> *"I then confronted her about it and she first denied it. I kept bringing up names and dates and she eventually broke down crying and told me it was the truth."*
> 
> Furthermore everyone has different standards and there are nothing wrong with the OPs...


And that's what I would have a problem with right there.

However -- go and talk to women and get their perspective on how it goes when they're honest about their sexual past.

I give them a lot of leeway on this. For myself, I just don't ask questions that I don't want to know or think about.

But my wife is exceedingly, painfully honest about her past. And refuses to be shamed over it. And I think that's good. 

And I think fixating on the past is bad.

And I haven't been 100% honest with her about mine, either. There's things I wouldn't tell her about, because it's pointless and would upset her and worry her. For example, I had a 3-way with two early 20 year olds.

How is my wife supposed to compete with that experience? Is she supposed to believe that it was actually pretty 'meh' and complicated and not really like it happens in porn at all?

So I just don't tell her.

In MC I had to really, really accept that honesty is a two way street. The giver of information needs to be honest, but the reciever needs to be able to recieve the honesty. 

Really, I would focus on the honesty aspect, and dig deep to see if I could be with a girl my brother had been with. I mean Christmases and stuff would be weird.

He can choose who he wants to be with. I just want him to think long-term, not just about the here and now.


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## Grogmiester

If you stay together I think every time you attend a family function that your brothers in attendance you will relive the whole mind movies thing your experiencing right now.


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## LucasJackson

Truthseeker1 said:


> @marduk when confronted her first instinct WAS to lie:
> 
> *"I then confronted her about it and she first denied it. I kept bringing up names and dates and she eventually broke down crying and told me it was the truth."*
> 
> Furthermore everyone has different standards and there are nothing wrong with the OPs...


The ole saying "you can't make a wh0re a housewife" is a saying for a reason. If he's real, which I doubt, then he needs to run.


----------



## Truthseeker1

marduk said:


> And that's what I would have a problem with right there.
> 
> However -- go and talk to women and get their perspective on how it goes when they're honest about their sexual past.
> 
> I give them a lot of leeway on this. For myself, I just don't ask questions that I don't want to know or think about.


I don't..i'm not saying tell everyone but this is a man you want to marry..if there is nothing wrong with multiple partner then fess up to your fiance..plus if he doesn't get the wild stuff that she gave others why the hell should he sign up for that? They get the good times I get to pay the mortgage..fvck that...and move on


----------



## Marduk

LucasJackson said:


> The ole saying "you can't make a wh0re a housewife" is a saying for a reason. If he's real, which I doubt, then he needs to run.


this is just **** shaming. 

Do you want women to be forthright and own their sexuality, or do you want them to be chattel?

What happens before you meet her is none of your business.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985

The focus should not be on the woman. As long as she did not cheat within an exclusive relationship, she is not a *****. She was in college, had fun, probably drunk. She has changed. Is this site not about change and improvement?

Let's focus on OP and why he is a virgin at 34 y.o.


----------



## Truthseeker1

marduk said:


> this is just **** shaming.
> 
> Do you want women to be forthright and own their sexuality, or do you want them to be chattel?
> 
> *What happens before you meet her is none of your business.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed unless you are getting married..and then honesty is called for...


----------



## 225985

LucasJackson said:


> Nice piece of fiction but there are sites like literotica.com that are more appropriate for it.


Don't spoil the fun.


----------



## Marduk

Truthseeker1 said:


> I don't..i'm not saying tell everyone but this is a man you want to marry..if there is nothing wrong with multiple partner then fess up to your fiance..plus if he doesn't get the wild stuff that she gave others why the hell should he sign up for that? They get the good times I get to pay the mortgage..fvck that...and move on


I would go into it stressing honesty and that you want the wild times with her. That you don't want her to give that up, you just want her to give it to only you. 

Ask her if she's ashamed of her sexuality now, and closed to it all, or if she just wants to focus it solely on her husband now. 

Because she's a pretty sexual beast - imagine all of it focused onto one point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

blueinbr said:


> Don't spoil the fun.


its an interesting conceptual chat >


----------



## Truthseeker1

marduk said:


> I would go into it stressing honesty and that you want the wild times with her. That you don't want her to give that up, you just want her to give it to only you.
> 
> Ask her if she's ashamed of her sexuality now, and closed to it all, or if she just wants to focus it solely on her husband now.
> 
> Because she's a pretty sexual beast - imagine all of it focused onto one point.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not every man wants this and its ok..and when asked I dont care how bad the woman wants a husband she should be honest with him..period,..


----------



## 225985

Truthseeker1 said:


> its an interesting conceptual chat >


One of my favorites was the thread about the wife/mom telling her H she was doing pelvic exercises to tighten herself for her lover. I have not been her long enough to have experienced some of the classics.


----------



## niceguy28

I would call it off tbh. You will NEVER be able to get over the fact that your brother and other dudes ran a train on her and treated her like a complete *****. I don't want to hear this garbage about it being a double standard. Women can get sex MUCH easier than men can because they are women. It requires no effort other than just opening your legs and letting these guys go at it. Letting men you barely know finish on you and in your mouth is whorish behavior. It's one thing to let your husband or significant other to do that but random guys? Come on get real. Her letting a bunch of guys do this to her shows a lack of respect for herself as a woman. OP I hate to say this but can you really deal with knowing that the mother of your future kids behaved like this, especially with your own brother. It's better to end it now than to have the resentment and disgust never go away.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Yes, everyone has a sex life and I actually agree with the mention of a double standard for women, but not in this case. There is NO WAY the societal oppression of women's sexuality makes being quiet about sex with another a family member, especially a brother, okay.


----------



## Truthseeker1

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, everyone has a sex life and I actually agree with the mention of a double standard for women, but not in htis case. There is NO WAY the societal oppression of women's sexuality makes being quiet about sex with another one of my family members okay.


I also think there is a difference accepting that people have dated before and had sex v. being really promiscuous - this is a case of the latter..some people can't accept a partner who has been promiscuous..and that is fine..I kow a woman who was in the triple digits but went nuts on a BF who had been to a hooker before he dated her...everyone has their limits and standards..


----------



## aine

Everyone is so quick to condemn this woman, she sounds as if there may well be some reason for her behaviour. Instead of relying on anonymous strangers and the comments of a bunch of jocks go ask her. And maybe she had a turning point in her life when she decided she wanted to be removed from all of that and turn over a new leaf? 

Maybe she had a crisis or a conversion experience. I don't know but OP you should find out.

Why are you not asking her? 
Consider pre marital type counselling


----------



## niceguy28

marduk said:


> this is just **** shaming.
> 
> Do you want women to be forthright and own their sexuality, or do you want them to be chattel?
> 
> What happens before you meet her is none of your business.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


****s should be shamed. This is what's wrong with society today. Everybody thinks that bad behavior should be lauded and there is such a double standard when it comes to men and women. If some dude got 5 women pregnant and he was called out for being a loser nobody would say that that's man ***** shaming.


----------



## bandit.45

aine said:


> Everyone is so quick to condemn this woman, she sounds as if there may well be some reason for her behaviour. Instead of relying on anonymous strangers and the comments of a bunch of jocks go ask her. And maybe she had a turning point in her life when she decided she wanted to be removed from all of that and turn over a new leaf?
> 
> Maybe she had a crisis or a conversion experience. I don't know but OP you should find out.
> 
> Why are you not asking her?
> Consider pre marital type counselling


No one is condemning her. She's not a criminal. But her reality is that her past promiscuity is going to mean something to her present partner and future partners. There is no way around it. 

The second things started getting serious between them she should have told him that she had sex with his brother as well as group sex with other men. She should have been honest, but she wasn't. She hid it, and the first time he asked her she obfuscated. 

It is the hiding and deception that is at issue here.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

aine said:


> Everyone is so quick to condemn this woman, she sounds as if there may well be some reason for her behaviour.


Everyone? No. I have an issue with her not informing him about his brother.


----------



## TAMAT

Arnold,

I see a number of big problems here and if I were you I would call off the wedding NOW.

1) She never told you she had sex with your BROTHER, this lie by omission and by itself is reason to cancel

2) She lied by omission about the number of men she had. 

3) She would be in contact with a former lover on a regular basis, your brother, if you marry her. 

4) In behaving like a chaste woman with you she is lying again. 

5) Her telling you she does not like oral or anal is either another lie, or an indication that she would not like it with YOU, but clearly does like it with others. 

6) From what you wrote there is a chance she is with you because you have better prospects, but she is not in love ith you.

7) You will grow to resent her for not doing the things with you she was willing to do with other men.

Tamat


----------



## Truthseeker1

Bottom line it's NOT ok to lie about your past to get a spouse...period...I'd have real trouble trusting them ever again..it shows they will lie and cheat to get what they want and will not take into consideration what their partner wants...


----------



## TAMAT

Arnold,

If you do still after all advice not to marry her.

* she needs to go no contact with her former lovers, and needs to identify them to you. This means choosing between your brother and her.

* she needs to open up her means of communication to you passwords etc.

* have her take a polygraph to determine if you have the full story.

* have her sign a prenup giving her nothing if she cheats.

Tamat


----------



## foolscotton3

marduk said:


> What happens before you meet her is none of your business.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Apparently it's everybody else's business but his...

Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


----------



## bandit.45

TAMAT said:


> Arnold,
> 
> I see a number of big problems here and if I were you I would call off the wedding NOW.
> 
> 1) She never told you she had sex with your BROTHER, this lie by omission and by itself is reason to cancel
> 
> 2) She lied by omission about the number of men she had.
> 
> 3) She would be in contact with a former lover on a regular basis, your brother, if you marry her.
> 
> 4) In behaving like a chaste woman with you she is lying again.
> 
> 5) Her telling you she does not like oral or anal is either another lie, or an indication that she would not like it with YOU, but clearly does like it with others.
> 
> 6) From what you wrote there is a chance she is with you because you have better prospects, but she is not in love ith you.
> 
> 7) You will grow to resent her for not doing the things with you she was willing to do with other men.
> 
> Tamat


QFT


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Ditto. No one is **** shaming the brother for having a threesome with her. They are shaming her. 

And while she probably has settled down and might have been doing things because she was in a dark place at the time there are three things that concern me that have zero to do with her previous lifestyle. 
1) she had sex with YOUR BROTHER. Every holiday, every cookout, every family gathering where he is present you'll know he had sex with your wife. That will be hard to overcome.
2) she lied. She might not have SAID she was a virgin, but by withholding sex during the courting phase she was reinventing herself into a false image. It's one thing ot start over, but she really should have said there was a time she was making some bad choices (and knowing why would be helpful to moving past it) but she lied. And then she denied (a lie) before finally telling. Better now than 10 years in and 2 kids down.
3) you'll see other men around your town or when you have neighbors over for dinner you'll wonder if she had sex with them. 

It will eat you up OP. I realize she has changed. Many women look for love in the wrong places or try to fill a void in their heart or life with drugs and wild sex and finally come to the realization that those things leave them feeling emptier than before and change the way they approach sex and men. And had she told you early on, you might have been able to get past that, or as soon as she found out who your brother was, fessed up. But she didn't and that's always going to haunt you. The right approach should have been for her to ease it out as you dated and telling you she was wild when she was younger but has grown up and gradually told you what that entailed so you could decide to end it at any point where it became too much to deal with. Waiting until you were engaged is misleading.

Sorry - it could have been great but I think you'll need to move on unless you want to move away and start over where you aren't likely to run into old sex partners. Call it off. Yes it will be embarrassing but it's not too late and better than a divorce down the road.


----------



## *Deidre*

If you have to ask.....

I was engaged, and we called it off, and broke up. Not for the reasons in this thread, but unless you want to end up another divorce stat, things won't improve just because you're gonna get married.


----------



## 225985

EnjoliWoman said:


> I think you'll need to move on unless you want to move away and *start over where you aren't likely to run into old sex partners. * Call it off. Yes it will be embarrassing but it's not too late and better than a divorce down the road.


The way OP described her, he will have to move out of the city because the odds are any random guy he sees on the street will be an old sex partner. Including guys at the family reunions.


----------



## Truthseeker1

TAMAT said:


> 7) You will grow to resent her for not doing the things with you she was willing to do with other men.
> 
> Tamat


I know women like this....more than one..


----------



## Thor

arnold I've only read the first page so far.

Yes you should call off the wedding for now. Why? Because you know she is willing and capable of deceiving you about things which she knows are important to you. She is willing to do this in order to control the outcome to get what she wants. She is willing to deny you the right to make a fully informed decision about your own future.

All of that is separate from her sexual past. You have every right to feel however you do about her sexual past. And how you feel about her romantic past. Repeat: You have every right to feel however you do. Some call it a double standard, some call you old fashioned, some call you insecure. Whatever. You have the right to feel however you do. Even if you are way out on the extreme edge of the spectrum. I personally think you are well within the norms for how men would feel about it, but that is irrelevant because you have the right to feel however you feel about it!

She certainly had the right to engage in whatever consensual activities she wanted to. Her history is not uncommon these days apparently. But then there are people who wait until the wedding night to have any sexual activity, so there is a whole range of sexual behaviors before marriage which people are fully entitled to.

But that doesn't mean you have to like her history. If it causes you distress then there is a significant difference in values or belief systems between you and her. It doesn't make either one of you wrong, it just makes you incompatible.

You should at least postpone the marriage indefinitely. Sit with your knowledge for a bit. Cool off your relationship with her a bit. You may come to peace with her history and find you don't care what the other men did or what they think. Or you may become even more certain this difference in belief systems and values is not something you can live with in your marriage.

I think her deceptiveness is a big big serious red flag and I would not continue a relationship with her because of it.

Does she have any kind of trauma history that you know of? Child sex abuse, rape as a young teen, alcoholic parent, or other abusive history? There are some red flags of it in your description though of course it can't be diagnosed as certain. If you do know of such history, and given her behaviors in college, I would not continue a relationship with her until and unless she is in qualified therapy.


----------



## bandit.45

I don't get HD women who later deny or run from their sexuality because they think marriage should be devoid of hot, wild sex. I think many men and women have a distorted view of what marriage should be, and I think that is the case with this woman. She needs to find a HD husband who is not related to any of her past partners and be totally up front and open with him. There are a lot of men out there who would be okay with her past as long as she is honest and up front.


----------



## Truthseeker1

bandit.45 said:


> I don't get HD women who later deny or run from their sexuality because they think marriage should be devoid of hot, wild sex. I think many men and women have a distorted view of what marriage should be, and I think that is the case with this woman. She needs to find a HD husband who is not related to any of her past partners and be totally up front and open with him. There are a lot of men out there who would be okay with her past as long as she is honest and up front.


I know a woman wit a WILD past - not only was she up front with her current H but she is also very sexual with him and they are VERY happy..I get that...

What I dont get is I was a wild child but you get the "boring" me..why would any thinking man take that deal...


----------



## WonkyNinja

arnold81 said:


> I could not imagine what it was but the news was that he knew my fiancee back in college. He said that she was quite the party girl and made her way around. He didn't want me to hear it from anyone else but he said that *he, along with numerous other men at their school, slept with her*. He said that *he participated in a 3 way with her and another man*. I didn't think he was telling the truth but I was stupid enough to ask for details. He talked about how they would get crazy drunk and she would sleep with him along with other numerous men. *He said she had no shame and would routinely let men finish in her mouth and on her body.* All in all, she was a real *****.


She sound like such a s**t, just the sort of person that your honest and decent brother wanted to be with. I'm sure no normal woman has ever let a man finish in her mouth.

He participated in a 3-way with her but warns you off marrying that type of girl? I trust that you will do the decent thing and contact all his dates to warn them what kind of guy he is.



arnold81 said:


> He is 7 years younger than me and is quite the ladies man. He doesn't share the same views about sex as me but I don't blame it since it's his life.


I'm sorry. She is a slvt but he is "quite the ladies man" but that's OK it's his life. Now I get it.



arnold81 said:


> He's telling the truth and he even went the extra mile and gave details when I asked. Other men have confirmed it as well as her so I'm sure it's all real.


So you have other friends that lived the same way in college and you are going to trash your fiance based upon the fact that she had the same college life that they did.

You need to have a very serious conversation with her and tell her that there is no way you can marry her as you are just a judgmental hypocrite who holds women to a standard that you don't expect of your men friends. Let her go and find a decent person to marry.

I would suggest that this is a troll but unfortunately in this society it is quite believable.


----------



## Marduk

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agreed unless you are getting married..and then honesty is called for...


Honesty is a two way street.

Did he ask her to tell him about her sexual past? If she'd ever been in a 3-way? How many men she'd slept with? Etc?

There's needing to know and then there's neediness in knowing. I don't need to know how big some other guy's **** was -- if I were to ask her, I'd first have to ask myself if what was really happening is that I was insecure about myself.


----------



## bandit.45

Truthseeker1 said:


> I know a woman wit a WILD past - not only was she up front with her current H but she is also very sexual with him and they are VERY happy..I get that...
> 
> What I don't get is I was a wild child but you get the *"boring" me..why would any thinking man take that deal.*..


Every woman has a right to do with her body what she wants, when she wants, and with whatever person she wants. No argument on that. If she wants to let herself be passed between men like a pack of cigarettes, that is her prerogative. 

But is the other person is her prospective life mate, then that person has the right to not accept her stance on boring marriage sex and walk away from the relationship. That person also has a right to feel cheated when she lies about said past and the fact that she slept with a close relative. It is Arnold's prerogative not to accept her. 

Again, no one is obligated to marry anyone.


----------



## Marduk

Truthseeker1 said:


> I know a woman wit a WILD past - not only was she up front with her current H but she is also very sexual with him and they are VERY happy..I get that...
> 
> What I dont get is I was a wild child but you get the "boring" me..why would any thinking man take that deal...


Which is why you need sufficient openness and commitment to talk about it.

My wife and I agreed and committed before we got engaged that if we were to get married, sex would be a priority. And an open, adventurous sex life, but monogamous.

So if the rules change, then nobody can say that it's not a problem to change the deal.


----------



## Catherine602

I don't know if this is real or not but just in case. The reason I say that is because I can't believe your brother waited so long to tell you. And all of those friends? 

Someone could have sent a message when you first started dating, asking you to dig deeper into he background. All of the sexual stuff sounds like a porn video about an actress trying to go strait. 

It"s not a judgement on her for her past or doubts about the sincerity of her reformation that should drive you decision. It's that she didn't reveal who she was to you and in fact she mislead you. 

You cannot have a loving intimate relationship with someone who hides major parts of themselves. You will discover that there is something missing as the relationship matures. The acting gets so emotionally taxing after a time that the person begins withdraws from their partner to conserve energy. 

You run a high risk of being lonely and miserable if you marry. You don't want to hurt her but were not the one who presented a false self. You were honest with her about what you wanted in a wife and she set about to deceive and humiliate you. 

She will learn from this and go on to find a comparable man by being who she is from the very first. You have a duty to yourself and your future children to marry a woman who shares your values.


----------



## Marduk

bandit.45 said:


> I don't get HD women who later deny or run from their sexuality because they think marriage should be devoid of hot, wild sex. I think many men and women have a distorted view of what marriage should be, and I think that is the case with this woman. She needs to find a HD husband who is not related to any of her past partners and be totally up front and open with him. There are a lot of men out there who would be okay with her past as long as she is honest and up front.


I'm struggling why we're leaping to the conclusion that this woman is going into this with the intention of shutting the taps of on her sexuality.

Maybe she wants a commitment AND her wild sex life. And she's decided to stop focusing on the sex and find herself a committed man, and then let loose with the sex.

Maybe this guy is actually a bit afraid of a fully sexual woman, given he's a virgin?


----------



## Marduk

foolscotton3 said:


> Apparently it's everybody else's business but his...
> 
> Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


How many women have you slept with?

How's your sex life now?


----------



## TDSC60

The dishonesty about her past is a huge red flag.

Wanting to stay "pure" before marriage is another. (More lies and misleading you).

Her telling you she does not care for oral or anal when she previously did both on what appears to be a regular basis is not only dishonest, but also another huge red flag in my opinion. Something is damaged in her now. She has some deep seated mental issues about sex that she is bringing into the relationship. I think she may view you as her salvation from a past that she is shamed by, but she is not in love with you.

Cancel the marriage. It would be trying to start a new life already weighed down with serious baggage. Not much hope of succeeding IMOH.


----------



## bandit.45

WonkyNinja said:


> You need to have a very serious conversation with her and tell her that there is no way you can marry her as you are just a judgmental hypocrite who holds women to a standard that you don't expect of your men friends. Let her go and find a decent person to marry.


:rofl:


----------



## Marduk

TDSC60 said:


> The dishonesty about her past is a huge red flag.
> 
> Wanting to stay "pure" before marriage is another. (More lies and misleading you).
> 
> Her telling you she does not care for oral or anal when she previously did both on what appears to be a regular basis is not only dishonest, but also another huge red flag in my opinion. Something is damaged in her now. She has some deep seated mental issues about sex that she is bringing into the relationship. I think she may view you as her salvation from a past that she is shamed by, but she is not in love with you.
> 
> Cancel the marriage. It would be trying to start a new life already weighed down with serious baggage. Not much hope of succeeding IMOH.


What a woman likes in her late teens and early 20's can be very different than what she likes when she is mature.

Your sexual tastes can change.

Besides, I suspect that if she liked it, she'd be afraid to admit to a virgin that she likes it.


----------



## Truthseeker1

bandit.45 said:


> Every woman has a right to do with her body what she wants, when she wants, and with whatever person she wants. No argument on that. If she wants to let herself be passed between men like a pack of cigarettes, that is her prerogative.
> 
> But is the other person is her prospective life mate, then that person has the right to not accept her stance on boring marriage sex and walk away from the relationship. That person also has a right to feel cheated when she lies about said past and the fact that she slept with a close relative. It is Arnold's prerogative not to accept her.
> 
> Again, no one is obligated to marry anyone.


Agreed a former party girl can walk around in granny sweaters and never have sex again - its her choice - but in choosing a partner why would I want the boring side of her...when all the others got the fun side..its not a deal any thinking man should take...some guys get caught up in the KISA bullsh!t and that is a dead end...


----------



## Marduk

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agreed a former party girl can walk around in granny sweaters and never have sex again - its her choice - but in choosing a partner why would I want the boring side of her...when all the others got the fun side..its not a deal any thinking man should take...some guys get caught up in the KISA bullsh!t and that is a dead end...


So why would you ever accept that deal going into it?

If he loves her, and wants her to give it a go, and wants those kinds of experiences with her, tell her that's what he wants.

If he wants her, he wants all of her, including anal, BJTC, all of it (except the 3-ways).

He wants the wild side of her, he just wants it to stay inside the marriage.

What's wrong with that?


----------



## Truthseeker1

marduk said:


> What a woman likes in her late teens and early 20's can be very different than what she likes when she is mature.
> 
> Your sexual tastes can change.
> 
> Besides, I suspect that if she liked it, she'd be afraid to admit to a virgin that she likes it.


Also people who wait or who are not promiscuous usually want a person with a similar past...I get it..and there is nothing wrong wiht that...


----------



## Truthseeker1

marduk said:


> So why would you ever accept that deal going into it?
> 
> If he loves her, and wants her to give it a go, and wants those kinds of experiences with her, tell her that's what he wants.
> 
> If he wants her, he wants all of her, including anal, BJTC, all of it (except the 3-ways).
> 
> He wants the wild side of her, he just wants it to stay inside the marriage.
> 
> What's wrong with that?


Not a thing but perhaps someone like the OP doesn't want a woman who has a past like this..it doesnt make him a bad guy..to her I bet he looks secure and decent to start a life with - in other words safe...


----------



## bandit.45

marduk said:


> I'm struggling why we're leaping to the conclusion that this woman is going into this with the intention of shutting the taps of on her sexuality.
> 
> Maybe she wants a commitment AND her wild sex life. And she's decided to stop focusing on the sex and find herself a committed man, and then let loose with the sex.
> 
> Maybe this guy is actually a bit afraid of a fully sexual woman, given he's a virgin?



Well only Arnold can answer this question. We have to make assumptions on the information we have been given. 

Obviously Arnold and her have not had any serious discussions about what they expect from each other in a marriage. 

If he does choose to look past her..um...past, then he needs to tell her he expects equal treatment, or at least her willingness to. That he expects her to have no communication with his brother without him knowing. If she says "hell no" then he takes her home, asks for the ring back and bids her adieu.


----------



## Truthseeker1

bandit.45 said:


> Well only Arnold can answer this question. We have to make assumptions on the information we have been given.
> 
> Obviously Arnold and her have not had any serious discussions about what they expect from each other in a marriage.
> 
> If he does choose to look past her..um...past, then he needs to tell her he expects equal treatment, or at least her willingness to. That he expects her to have no communication with his brother without him knowing. If she says "hell no" then he takes her home, asks for the ring back and bids her adieu.


I'd been having the time of my life in California....>

If i'm young with a good job why the hell and I even messing with stuff like this..just my opinion...life is tough enough wihtout taking on someone elses baggage...


----------



## bandit.45

marduk said:


> So why would you ever accept that deal going into it?
> 
> If he loves her, and wants her to give it a go, and wants those kinds of experiences with her, tell her that's what he wants.
> 
> If he wants her, he wants all of her, including anal, BJTC, all of it (except the 3-ways).
> 
> He wants the wild side of her, he just wants it to stay inside the marriage.
> 
> What's wrong with that?


Nothing. But they have to both agree. 

This isn't the issue. The questions is, why did she lie about it and and hide it? That is the issue. It is her devious tendencies that are the threat to the future marriage. Not that she is a freak. 

Me? I like sexual women. As long as they are up front with me about their sexual pasts, are clean from STDs, I don't have a problem with what they did or with how many. Because, in bed I'm selfish, and I will use her for my pleasure and give her as much back as I can. I'm not thinking about her past partners, just using her body as a playground and letting her use me in turn. That is what enjoyable sex is: two people mutually agreeing to use each other for physical pleasure. But be honest about it.


----------



## Marduk

Truthseeker1 said:


> Not a thing but perhaps someone like the OP doesn't want a woman who has a past like this..it doesnt make him a bad guy..to her I bet he looks secure and decent to start a life with - in other words safe...


Absolutely it does not make him a bad guy. Provided one or more of the following:

1. He breaks it off because she wasn't honest with him, not because she wasn't a virgin. And he owns the fact that he probably didn't make it very easy for her to be honest.
2. He breaks it off because it would be too awkward marrying a girl that slept with his brother.
3. He breaks it off with her because her past makes him insecure and he owns up to that.

If it's #3, and he's a 30 year old virgin, he's going to have to sort that out. Because the number of 25 to 35 year old virgin girls who would be willing to marry him, and still have the kind of sex life that most would find fulfilling... Is a pretty small number.

And the odds of a woman lying about that out of shame is pretty high.

Listen OP. Here's what I suggest. You break it off with this girl, but you be honest with her and everybody else about your part to play in that. And then you go to counselling, and date some girls, and be friends with even more girls, and have sex with some of them.

And have them teach you about what sex is about, and how having sex with a woman isn't degrading them. And join the majority of the human race and mature in your sexuality before you enter into a long term committed relationship?

Because you really don't understand sex, or women.

And understand that you are breaking up with a woman that could have rocked your world nightly for the rest of your life, partly because of your own insecurity about her sexuality.


----------



## WonkyNinja

foolscotton3 said:


> Most women are not like her, that behaviour probably shows in other areas of her life. I get that women change, maybe she has the bug, she's not getting any younger, all her friends are married and she feels like she wasted her time bouncing from one c0ck to the next (literally) but that recklessness probably shows in other parts of her life.
> 
> Have you checked her credit history?
> 
> I would pass on this one, and be glad you found all this out before you were married.
> 
> Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


She had sex with multiple partners in college so he needs to check her credit history. I presume that goes for guys as well? Probably not.



Maxo said:


> This is right on, IMO. I cannot imagine why she would not have disclosed this re your brother from the very start if she wanted any chance at a relationship with you. She must have been on pins and needles waiting for the revelation.
> I think she must be disturbed to have kept this from you.


He said that his brother is from another father so he probably has a different last name. If she even remember his brother then it's likely that she didn't make the connection.



Maxo said:


> I have that there is a relationship between past promiscuity, starting sex at an early age, and infidelity. You might want to research that.


Again is this just applied to women or do you include men? 



LucasJackson said:


> The ole saying "you can't make a wh0re a housewife" is a saying for a reason. If he's real, which I doubt, then he needs to run.


So men want a woman who has been chaste and pure up to the time she meets them and then is overcome by desire once she meets them. That sounds like a very sad ego that needs to be stroked into thinking that he is the only one man enough to bring out the sexy in her.

This thread may be a troll but it really is pulling the chauvinist hypocrites out of the woodwork.

He needs to dump her though and continue his quest to find a nice 34 year old virgin with no past.


----------



## Marduk

Truthseeker1 said:


> Also people who wait or who are not promiscuous usually want a person with a similar past...I get it..and there is nothing wrong wiht that...


There isn't anything wrong with that.

But there's everything wrong with that if you go into it with the expectation that your innocent virgin blushing bride all of a sudden becomes your personal porn star.

I'm of the general opinion that those that choose that path generally aren't sexual people.


----------



## Truthseeker1

marduk said:


> There isn't anything wrong with that.
> 
> But there's everything wrong with that if you go into it with the expectation that your innocent virgin blushing bride all of a sudden becomes your personal porn star.
> 
> I'm of the general opinion that those that choose that path generally aren't sexual people.


Agreed..what he needs is a woman who truly shares his values with a similar background...

Me I'd be using my time in California to be making many newmemories....and not wasting time with a long distance romance bullsh!t with a woman who has trouble with honesty...


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> I'm struggling why we're leaping to the conclusion that this woman is going into this with the intention of shutting the taps of on her sexuality.


People read the OP differently than you.


> Also, she specifically told me that she isn't into oral and anal and I was fine with that. I love a woman that respects her body. However, I found that she has done both of these things with other men.


I don't see it as a leap, but to each his own interpretation.


----------



## WonkyNinja

marduk said:


> I'm struggling why we're leaping to the conclusion that this woman is going into this with the intention of shutting the taps of on her sexuality.
> 
> Maybe she wants a commitment AND her wild sex life. And she's decided to stop focusing on the sex and find herself a committed man, and then let loose with the sex.
> 
> *Maybe this guy is actually a bit afraid of a fully sexual woman, given he's a virgin?*


:iagree:

and staying the virgin until 34 was his choice. If he's now afraid of any woman with experience then it's his issue to deal with. If he will only consider another virgin then he needs to make that really clear on his OLD profile to avoid wasting the time of the vast majority.

Maybe she is a victim of CSA or something else, maybe the parties threw her into depression when she was the highlight of the party but none of the college boys wanted to even acknowledge her the following day, maybe the a*** sex hurt like he** and she doesn't want to do it again. 

There seems to be a consensus of opinion from the men that once a woman has done something with one guy then she owes it to all future boyfriends to do at least the same if not more.

She does need to be honest about what she wants, but then so does he.


----------



## WonkyNinja

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agreed a former party girl can walk around in granny sweaters and never have sex again - its her choice - but in choosing a partner why would I want the boring side of her...*when all the others got the fun side..its not a deal any thinking man should take*...some guys get caught up in the KISA bullsh!t and that is a dead end...


Maybe the other guys got the fun side and she got hurt when they all went bragging about it. That is teenager thinking.


----------



## Truthseeker1

WonkyNinja said:


> Maybe the other guys got the fun side and she got hurt when they all went bragging about it. That is teenager thinking.


No its not...marduk gets it..I should have said sexual instead of fun...but i stand by my point....


----------



## Marduk

phillybeffandswiss said:


> People read the OP differently than you.
> I don't see it as a leap, but to each his own interpretation.


Why?

And why is anal and Bj's not respecting her body?

These betray his own inhibitions and assumptions, not hers.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

marduk said:


> Why?


 Why not?


> And why is anal and Bj's not respecting her body?


Ask him. 



> These betray his own inhibitions and assumptions, not hers.


See and this is another one of your leaps. Everyone is making assumptions and leaps in this thread even you. Like I said, people read it differently than you and in many ways it isn't a leap in context to what you had just asked.


----------



## Marduk

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Why not?
> Ask him.
> 
> See and this is another one of your leaps. Everyone is making assumptions and leaps in this thread even you. Like I said, people read it differently than you and in many ways it isn't a leap in context to what you had just asked.


So my leaps are invalid, but yours aren't?

There is nothing in what he said that makes me think that she doesn't want to have a sexually active married life.

She was sexually active before marriage. So I think it's reasonable to think that she likes sex. In her case, I think she really really likes sex.

Like, a lot.


----------



## Truthseeker1

@marduk what I think the OP is going to have to ask himself what he wants and the pursue it. If he is staying celibate for religious reasons I get it and should limit his dating to those circles. But even in those circles (I know form first hand experience) people lie to get a nice "church spouse" 

If not then what i'd advise any young man is to go out [email protected] to the wall and enjoy life...make your own memories and take no prisoners...if you are young and have a good job enjoy the ride.....and don't worry about being a KISA or someone elses baggage leave that to some other dude...


----------



## Marduk

Truthseeker1 said:


> @marduk what I think the OP is going to have to ask himself what he wants and the pursue it. If he is staying celibate for religious reasons I get it and should limit his dating to those circles. But even in those circles (I know form first hand experience) people lie to get a nice "church spouse"
> 
> If not then what i'd advise any young man is to go out [email protected] to the wall and enjoy life...make your own memories and take no prisoners...if you are young and have a good job enjoy the ride.....and don't worry about being a KISA or someone elses baggage leave that to some other dude...


Yep.

The first one seems like a really raw deal with lots of dishonesty and a lack of good sex, though.

So I'd struggle with that choice and all the baggage that comes with that.

Listen, OP. I just lost a close family member. Life is short. There's a whole world of fun out there, man. Have at thee!


----------



## Truthseeker1

marduk said:


> Yep.
> 
> The first one seems like a really raw deal with lots of dishonesty and a lack of good sex, though.
> 
> So I'd struggle with that choice and all the baggage that comes with that.
> 
> Listen, OP. I just lost a close family member. Life is short. There's a whole world of fun out there, man. Have at thee!


Sorry for your loss my friend. :frown2:

You are right..and i'm somewhere in between you and the OP in my own life. You made great points in this thread..I think for me what gets me is not her past but her dishonesty...

I say this MAKE MEMORIES and keep making them! It's not just about sex but enjoy life! You live in California - soak it all in - ride the wave because at some point the wave will crash...so enjoy the ride...


----------



## Maxo

WonkyNinja said:


> She had sex with multiple partners in college so he needs to check her credit history. I presume that goes for guys as well? Probably not.
> 
> 
> 
> He said that his brother is from another father so he probably has a different last name. If she even remember his brother then it's likely that she didn't make the connection.
> 
> 
> 
> Again is this just applied to women or do you include men?
> 
> 
> 
> So men want a woman who has been chaste and pure up to the time she meets them and then is overcome by desire once she meets them. That sounds like a very sad ego that needs to be stroked into thinking that he is the only one man enough to bring out the sexy in her.
> 
> This thread may be a troll but it really is pulling the chauvinist hypocrites out of the woodwork.
> 
> He needs to dump her though and continue his quest to find a nice 34 year old virgin with no past.


I find it far fetched to believe that his brother's identity was never disclosed this far into the engagement.

And, I see no evidence that men, necessarily want a virgin, but, the harm here is the lying. Recall when he inquired, she lied.


----------



## LucasJackson

WonkyNinja said:


> She had sex with multiple partners in college so he needs to check her credit history. I presume that goes for guys as well? Probably not.
> 
> 
> 
> He said that his brother is from another father so he probably has a different last name. If she even remember his brother then it's likely that she didn't make the connection.
> 
> 
> 
> Again is this just applied to women or do you include men?
> 
> 
> 
> So men want a woman who has been chaste and pure up to the time she meets them and then is overcome by desire once she meets them. That sounds like a very sad ego that needs to be stroked into thinking that he is the only one man enough to bring out the sexy in her.
> 
> This thread may be a troll but it really is pulling the chauvinist hypocrites out of the woodwork.
> 
> He needs to dump her though and continue his quest to find a nice 34 year old virgin with no past.


A past is one thing. This goes far beyond "past." It's not anti-woman to call this skank a skank. She is a skank. That doesn't mean all women are skanks but this one certainly is. Good thing he found out when he did. His brother did him a solid.


----------



## Yeswecan

maritalloneliness said:


> Are we still adhering to double standards. If the situation was reversed and it was the girl who found out that her soon to be husband was a ***** monger, would we encourage her to break off the wedding. Everyone has a past nowadays, it is foolish to think that we would never run across a partner's ex lover . Now from what you posted , she has been faithful to you and your relationship. I assume that to wait for the wedding night was a mutual decision. You're punishing her for what she did in the past and not appreciating the person she is today. What do people mean when they say "I love you" when conditions are placed on that love for things that happened in the past. The wedding vows shouldn't say until death do we part instead it should state until I find out about your sexual past or until you piss me off or until I get tired of you. What the hell, why marry at all?


Well, if my soon to be was found to have slept with my brother than all bets are off. Beyond that I do not see a reason to not marry. What is in the past stays in the past IMO.


----------



## WonkyNinja

Yeswecan said:


> Well, if my soon to be was found to have slept with my brother than all bets are off. Beyond that I do not see a reason to not marry. What is in the past stays in the past IMO.


I agree and since he has labelled his brother "quite the ladies man" it seems that would put many of the women in his hometown off limits.


----------



## WonkyNinja

LucasJackson said:


> A past is one thing. This goes far beyond "past." It's not anti-woman to call this skank a skank. She is a skank. That doesn't mean all women are skanks but this one certainly is. Good thing he found out when he did. His brother did him a solid.


It absolutely is anti-women when his brother is "quite the ladies man" for participating in the exact same sex acts that she did and you seem to think his brother is a good person.


----------



## Yeswecan

One other item, it is very telling that the brother finally came forward and provided information on the STB to OP. You see, this bothered him as well. Further, the brother would be part of the lie if he did not offer up what he knows and participated in. Again, the entire brother thing would cause me to stop all proceedings.


----------



## bandit.45

WonkyNinja said:


> There seems to be a consensus of opinion from the men that once a woman has done something with one guy then she owes it to all future boyfriends to do at least the same if not more.
> 
> She does need to be honest about what she wants, but then so does he.


Wrong. She doesn't owe him. But she should want to. 

For whatever reason, if she does not want to, then he has the choice whether or not to accept her new reality and make it his own.


----------



## MyRevelation

WonkyNinja said:


> It absolutely is anti-women when his brother is "quite the ladies man" for participating in the exact same sex acts that she did and you seem to think his brother is a good person.


I'm one who thinks the brother did the right thing and the fiance did not, and here's my reasoning.

I don't care what consenting adults do. However, this particular act became a problem when the fiance finally met the OP's family and brother and fiance realized they had a past. Once that event occurred, then the brother stepped up and the fiance LIED.

In my own M, I've only asked one thing concerning my W's past and that was don't ever put me in a position where I am meeting some guy and don't know that you've had a past with him. I won't ask about past partners and the acts they did, but don't put me in a position where the two of you are sharing a secret in my presence that I'm not permitted to know about.


----------



## bandit.45

I agree that the brother did the right thing.


----------



## Thor

marduk said:


> Honesty is a two way street.
> 
> Did he ask her to tell him about her sexual past? If she'd ever been in a 3-way? How many men she'd slept with? Etc?
> 
> There's needing to know and then there's neediness in knowing. I don't need to know how big some other guy's **** was -- if I were to ask her, I'd first have to ask myself if what was really happening is that I was insecure about myself.





marduk said:


> Which is why you need sufficient openness and commitment to talk about it.


There is a possible inconsistency there. Must a person imagine all possible scenarios and ask about them? If I forgot to ask my wife if she publicly blew random guys at parties when she was in high school, does that mean I have no right to be upset if I later found out she did that?

If a person withholds information about their past because they think the other person probably would be unhappy such things happened, then it is an intentional deception. If OP's fiance honestly thought he would have no problem she had a 3-some with his brother, then it isn't an intentional deception to keep it from him.

But the scenario OP provided indicates she knew he would be uncomfortable with her past and that he would likely not continue in a relationship with her. The fact he never thought to ask if she'd had 3-somes and worked her way through the male student body at college does not excuse her hiding the information.


----------



## Marduk

Thor said:


> There is a possible inconsistency there. Must a person imagine all possible scenarios and ask about them? If I forgot to ask my wife if she publicly blew random guys at parties when she was in high school, does that mean I have no right to be upset if I later found out she did that?


I've never told my wife about my 3-some, even when she asked.

I've never told my wife the story I related in another thread about me getting a BJ in front of half my school. Or a million other things.

Does that make me a bad guy? Why does she have to know? I don't miss those things.



> If a person withholds information about their past because they think the other person probably would be unhappy such things happened, then it is an intentional deception. If OP's fiance honestly thought he would have no problem she had a 3-some with his brother, then it isn't an intentional deception to keep it from him.


I don't hold them back because I'm ashamed of them. I hold them back because it would needlessly hurt her, have nothing to do with her or our marriage, and I don't want to do them again. I don't miss them.

I'm sure she does the same. Like I said, I don't ask questions I don't want to hear the answer to. She would tell me without blinking an eye.



> But the scenario OP provided indicates she knew he would be uncomfortable with her past and that he would likely not continue in a relationship with her. The fact he never thought to ask if she'd had 3-somes and worked her way through the male student body at college does not excuse her hiding the information.


He could have very well said "virginity is important to me. I know you're not a virgin and I accept that. Can you tell me about your sexual history so we can see if we're on the same page before we get serious?"


----------



## niceguy28

bandit.45 said:


> I agree that the brother did the right thing.


 I kind of disagree. Why didn't he tell his brother all of this stuff before he got engaged. If he knew all of this he should have spoken up sooner. He dropped the ball.


----------



## Steve1000

maritalloneliness said:


> You're the only one who knows if this is something you can live with.


Unfortunately, he probably won't know for a couple of years whether it is something he can live with. That said, I have little confidence that this story is real because it is pretty sensational. It would be a good movie plot.


----------



## bandit.45

niceguy28 said:


> I kind of disagree. Why didn't he tell his brother all of this stuff before he got engaged. If he knew all of this he should have spoken up sooner. He dropped the ball.


Maybe the brother had not met her before the engagement. Maybe the brother did not put two and two together until he saw her or found out exactly who she was. 

She probably forgot about the brother, or did not know that he was the OP's half brother when she hooked up with OP. 

I can see a few possibilities. 

I lived in a town with a very tight Latino community. Close to everyone in the Latino community was related either directly, by marriage or twice/thrice removed. I had a Latino friend who dated a girl all through high school, they got engaged, then some long lost aunt poked her head up and told them they were first half-cousins or something like that. They honestly did not know they were related!! They had do get some kind of waiver from the state to marry, along with dispensation from the Catholic church, because she had already gotten pregnant. 

You just never know.


----------



## Talker67

I can see how a woman can be ****ty/over sexed for a while, find out she really does not like that, find a decent guy, and shun her former life and want to settle down. Just because you do things like that, does not mean you are actually enjoying it.

But it is a bit of a red flag for two reasons:
1) it might be indicative of some past sexual abuse...and that can totally screw up her mind for a long time, and potentially make the marriage impossible
2) there is NEVER a reason for a fiancé/wife to EVER deny sex acts to her fiancé/husband that she has freely given to other men. A man finds that out, and there is just no getting around the fact that she denied you things she freely gave to others. How can she actually love you if she is acting like that.

So the marriage? Postpone it. Get to know the REAL HER. find out what is going on in her mind. Demand those sex acts she has been pretending to you she does not give. THen a year from now....make a reasoned decision.

You really can not decide now....you were hit in the head with a lead pipe, and you are not thinking straight.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Talker67 said:


> I can see how a woman can be ****ty/over sexed for a while, find out she really does not like that, find a decent guy, and shun her former life and want to settle down. Just because you do things like that, does not mean you are actually enjoying it.
> 
> But it is a bit of a red flag for two reasons:
> 1) it might be indicative of some past sexual abuse...and that can totally screw up her mind for a long time, and potentially make the marriage impossible
> 2) there is NEVER a reason for a fiancé/wife to EVER deny sex acts to her fiancé/husband that she has freely given to other men. A man finds that out, and there is just no getting around the fact that she denied you things she freely gave to others. How can she actually love you if she is acting like that.
> 
> So the marriage? Postpone it. Get to know the REAL HER. find out what is going on in her mind. Demand those sex acts she has been pretending to you she does not give. THen a year from now....make a reasoned decision.
> 
> You really can not decide now....you were hit in the head with a lead pipe, and you are not thinking straight.


Agreed but when one lives that life they also have to deal with the possibility that some perspective partners will be turned off by it and move on...they should NEVER lie to get a spouse.....if a person waits for marriage it is reasonable that they will want a partner who has also waited...there is NOTHING wrong with that...also if they thought they did nothing wrong then why not share it wiht the person they plan to marry?


----------



## WonkyNinja

bandit.45 said:


> Wrong. She doesn't owe him. But she should want to.


Why? What if she didn't like it, it hurt or it was humiliating? What if it were coerced before or under the influence of alcohol. 

I agree that he has the right to not want a relationship with someone who doesn't want to, for example, do a**l but she shouldn't be compelled to want to do anything.


----------



## Truthseeker1

WonkyNinja said:


> Why? What if she didn't like it, it hurt or it was humiliating? What if it were coerced before or under the influence of alcohol.
> 
> *I agree that he has the right to not want a relationship with someone who doesn't want to, for example, do a**l but she shouldn't be compelled to want to do anything.*


Agree its her choice as well as his choice...if he wants a woman with a less promiscuous past then he should try to find her and leave this lady behind..


----------



## arnold81

I appreciate all of the advice. A lot has been on my mind and as much as it hurts, I will try to find a way to let her down easy and postpone the wedding. We'll lose some money over this but I think it's the long term that counts. For the people asking about my sexuality. It's true that I'm a virgin and I'm not ashamed of that. Everyone has the right over their own body and it's the path I chose for myself. I've been intimate with her and other girlfriends in my past but it never went past kissing and groping. I do kind of feel bad about my fiancee because I'm feeling like I'm judging her for things that happened in her past. She doesn't even want to talk about it at this point. She says that what happened, happened and now we need to move forward with our future. I don't think I mind too much about the multiple partners because it's unrealistic to expect to meet a woman her age that is sexually inexperienced. It's the part about my brother and the part about the details of the 3 way that have me going crazy. It just puts her in another league to me. Like porn star league. Maybe I'm wrong and more women do this than I know of but I love a woman that has values and respects her body. Maybe she has changed but just can't think of anything she can do to prove that to me. For now, I can say that she is loyal, seems like she would be a great mother, and has a great vision for our future. She says that she initially lied because it was a difficult time in her past that she wants to forget. One part is still telling me to run as far as I can but what I will do is talk to her about this wedding stuff and see how she reacts. I feel that if she truly understands how I feel, then she should agree to the delay.


----------



## michzz

arnold81 said:


> ... I'm pretty successful in my career and *I'm pulling 90k right now*. My brother and the rest of his friends are barely pulling half that...


I'm concerned that you think you are doing well financially, but not to threadjack, $90k in Palo Alto is really not doing that well. Maybe compared to your peers, but for the SF Peninsula? Not even enough to afford a place to live.

Even at double that salary it would be tough to buy a house or even a condo anywhere within 50 miles of there.

As for your fiancee? Regardless of her body count I'm concerned about two things:

1. You two have not been intimate. Why?

2. Your brother has been with her, and even in a threesome. 

I could never be with anyone who has been with my brother.

IMHO, I think you ought to break up with her and focus on making more money. Then date someone locally who has no connection to your past, your family. Don't be quick to marry. As for celibacy? Not at your age.


----------



## WonkyNinja

Talker67 said:


> I can see how a woman can be ****ty/over sexed for a while, find out she really does not like that,


By that I presume you mean behaves like a guy in the same situation.



Talker67 said:


> 2) there is NEVER a reason for a fiancé/wife to EVER deny sex acts to her fiancé/husband that she has freely given to other men.


Yes there is. The fact that she doesn't want to do something is the sole reason. He is free to make his own decision based upon that but she is NEVER compelled to perform any sex act with any person. 



Talker67 said:


> A man finds that out, and there is just no getting around the fact that she denied you things she freely gave to others. How can she actually love you if she is acting like that.


That is his problem not hers. If she finds something painful or humiliating then only a complete a** would suggest that she should do it for him anyway.



Talker67 said:


> *Demand those sex acts* she has been pretending to you she does not give. THen a year from now....make a reasoned decision.


That is tantamount to rape, it is certainly the entitled opinion of rape culture speaking.


----------



## Marduk

arnold81 said:


> I appreciate all of the advice. A lot has been on my mind and as much as it hurts, I will try to find a way to let her down easy and postpone the wedding. We'll lose some money over this but I think it's the long term that counts. For the people asking about my sexuality. It's true that I'm a virgin and I'm not ashamed of that. Everyone has the right over their own body and it's the path I chose for myself. I've been intimate with her and other girlfriends in my past but it never went past kissing and groping. I do kind of feel bad about my fiancee because I'm feeling like I'm judging her for things that happened in her past. She doesn't even want to talk about it at this point. She says that what happened, happened and now we need to move forward with our future. I don't think I mind too much about the multiple partners because it's unrealistic to expect to meet a woman her age that is sexually inexperienced. It's the part about my brother and the part about the details of the 3 way that have me going crazy. It just puts her in another league to me. Like porn star league. Maybe I'm wrong and more women do this than I know of but I love a woman that has values and respects her body. Maybe she has changed but just can't think of anything she can do to prove that to me. For now, I can say that she is loyal, seems like she would be a great mother, and has a great vision for our future. She says that she initially lied because it was a difficult time in her past that she wants to forget. One part is still telling me to run as far as I can but what I will do is talk to her about this wedding stuff and see how she reacts. I feel that if she truly understands how I feel, then she should agree to the delay.


I get the part about your brother.

But you need to understand that a woman can have wild crazy sex, and respect her body. 

And a woman can have wild crazy sex with other men, and then fall in love with you and direct all of that your way.

If this is your decision, I can get it. But you have a lot of weird ideas about women and sex, and they need to get sorted out before you get married.

And don't postpone it. Let her go. Rip the band aid off and let her find someone who truly loves her and accepts her, because that isn't you.


----------



## GuyInColorado

How old are you? Definitely don't get married. Start having sex! I was getting some decent action in college and I still think back to 13 years ago and regret not sleeping with girls that I could have if I wasn't concerned about being such a "good guy!" A woman wants a confident man to blow her mind in bed (or couch, or truck, or changing room)!


You will have regrets down the road that you only experienced one woman. You will wonder what you are missing, especially if you have a lame sex life that I would bet is in your future.


----------



## arnold81

marduk said:


> I get the part about your brother.
> 
> But you need to understand that a woman can have wild crazy sex, and respect her body.
> 
> And a woman can have wild crazy sex with other men, and then fall in love with you and direct all of that your way.
> 
> If this is your decision, I can get it. But you have a lot of weird ideas about women and sex, and they need to get sorted out before you get married.
> 
> And don't postpone it. Let her go. Rip the band aid off and let her find someone who truly loves her and accepts her, because that isn't you.


I hope it doesn't come across that I'm saying that women that have crazy sex don't have values. That's not what I meant. What I mean is that the things she did, who she did it with, and how easily she was able to do all these things just seemed to lower her value in my book. I don't know if that makes sense or not but I hope you see what I'm saying.


----------



## WonkyNinja

arnold81 said:


> I appreciate all of the advice. A lot has been on my mind and as much as it hurts, I will try to find a way to let her down easy and postpone the wedding.
> 
> *Why postpone? You've already said you won't respect her, why keep her hanging on? *
> 
> We'll lose some money over this but I think it's the long term that counts. For the people asking about my sexuality. It's true that I'm a virgin and I'm not ashamed of that. Everyone has the right over their own body and it's the path I chose for myself. I've been intimate with her and other girlfriends in my past but it never went past kissing and groping. I do kind of feel bad about my fiancee because I'm feeling like I'm judging her for things that happened in her past.
> 
> *You are*
> 
> She doesn't even want to talk about it at this point. She says that what happened, happened and now we need to move forward with our future. I don't think I mind too much about the multiple partners because it's unrealistic to expect to meet a woman her age that is sexually inexperienced. It's the part about my brother and the part about the details of the 3 way that have me going crazy. It just puts her in another league to me. Like porn star league. Maybe I'm wrong and more women do this than I know of but I love a woman that has values and respects her body. Maybe she has changed but just can't think of anything she can do to prove that to me.
> 
> *So why postpone? If you can't think of anything to make it right then you're just going to keep revisiting this in the future.
> *
> 
> For now, I can say that she is loyal, seems like she would be a great mother, and has a great vision for our future.
> 
> *Awesome!! Sounds like you're considering her as a Golden Retriever. *
> 
> She says that she initially lied because it was a difficult time in her past that she wants to forget. One part is still telling me to run as far as I can but what I will do is talk to her about this wedding stuff and see how she reacts. I feel that if she truly understands how I feel, then she should agree to the delay.


I think you have waaayyyyyy more problems than the delay.


----------



## Marduk

arnold81 said:


> I hope it doesn't come across that I'm saying that women that have crazy sex don't have values. That's not what I meant. What I mean is that the things she did, who she did it with, and how easily she was able to do all these things just seemed to lower her value in my book. I don't know if that makes sense or not but I hope you see what I'm saying.


You weren't there. You don't even really know who she is. Don't judge her based on what your brother said or did as a frat boy.

I was very promiscuous when single. I'm very monogamous when not.

Many women are the same, I'm sure.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

One of my BFFs from college was like your fiance. She genuinely did "reform" and is now a very devoted wife and mother (of four). Her life is so completely vanilla now, and she's super happy with it. Her husband knew her, warts (literally) and all, and accepted her for who she was, what she had done, and how she vowed to be different. Her husband was very much like you when we were all in college (20+years ago)

Have you guys had STD testing? Have you talked about it at all?


----------



## Thor

arnold81 said:


> It's true that I'm a virgin and I'm not ashamed of that.


There is no bigger difference than virgin and non-virgin. If you had a sexual relationship previously, your fiance's history wouldn't seem nearly as "out there" as it does.



arnold81 said:


> It just puts her in another league to me. Like porn star league. Maybe I'm wrong and more women do this than I know of but I love a woman that has values and respects her body.


You have every right to want what you want, and to whatever values or belief system you have.

But, I think you are projecting a lack of self respect onto her which may not apply. I was a virgin when I met my now-wife, and she most certainly was not a virgin. So I understand your position. You have a particular view of pre-marital sex but that does not mean your fiance shares that interpretation. She may or may not have had some kind of self esteem issue related to her promiscuity. She may have felt she was not being used by the men because she wanted the sex and she enjoyed it. She may view it as having been mutually and equally consensual activity where they each used each other equally for whatever gratification they got.

Again, you have every right to want someone with a different kind of history than she has. You and she have a big incompatibility here on sex in one way or another.


----------



## Thor

marduk said:


> You weren't there. You don't even really know who she is.


Arnold, ^ is very true. You are projecting your own belief system onto her. That is a difficult concept to really understand and buy into because we think our value system is "right". And for us it is right, but it doesn't mean other people are the same.

If you went out and had sex with a bunch of different women, you would feel as if it was valueless and it went against your internal belief system. Promiscuous sex for you would actually be "wrong".

But many other people view sex as recreational or something friends can do without having to have a serious personal relationship going on.

You know my perspective from my last post. I get it. It was hurtful to learn recently about some of my wife's history before we met decades ago.

What you need to do now is try to figure out who she is if you even stay. Personally I think her deception and a few other things are big red flags that she is not marriage material. But if you decide to try to keep the relationship for now, I would not be judgmental. You need to have calm discussions where she feels free to tell you things without you getting all reactive or looking hurt. She didn't do those things in the past to hurt you!

Worst case is you find out your belief systems are just not compatible. That's it. She didn't cheat on you. She didn't plan to harm you by being promiscuous in the past. 

She did plan to deceive you and to thereby manipulate you into a marriage she knew you wouldn't want had she told you the truth. But you already know this! And it is one very major reason I would not stay with her. She has this template in her mind that lying to you or deceiving you is ok if it gets her what she wants. She rationalizes it away. She'll do it again on other topics if you marry her, and you'll get burned. But you already know this about her.

If you want to stay with her, I would tell her you want to understand and know the real her, not some fiction she presents. I would ask her questions and then let her talk. STFU and let her talk. Be quiet and let her follow on with more information. Do the impartial reporter routine, asking her questions and just letting her talk. Don't defend yourself, don't make accusations, don't get emotional.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Thor said:


> .
> *
> Again, you have every right to want someone with a different kind of history than she has. You and she have a big incompatibility here on sex in one way or another*.


That is it in a nutshell...it all boils down to this...what he wants and what she is are two very different things...


----------



## zzzman99

WonkyNinja said:


> By that I presume you mean behaves like a guy in the same situation.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes there is. The fact that she doesn't want to do something is the sole reason. He is free to make his own decision based upon that but she is NEVER compelled to perform any sex act with any person.
> 
> 
> 
> That is his problem not hers. If she finds something painful or humiliating then only a complete a** would suggest that she should do it for him anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> That is tantamount to rape, it is certainly the entitled opinion of rape culture speaking.


We have our white knight.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Arnold I am sorry that you are here and fully understand your predicament. I do not think you have weird ideas about women and commend you for your sticking to your values.

Here are my comments (also on what others have been saying):

The first issue is that she has slept with your brother. This is going to be awkward to say the least and will probably be untenable in the future. As others have already said, I could not think of marrying someone that my brother fvcked. Especially if it was part of a threesome. So that is the first hurdle you will need to overcome - pretty tough if not impossible to do.


The next thing is that this is not like these are her past sexual partners that you are never likely to see. They are from your hometown and there were a great many of them. And its not like they wouldn't remember her (she was like the college bike - everyone rode her). These are people you are going to interact with and unless she lists everyone of them (if she even remembers) you are likely to be shaking hands with them not knowing if they were in a threesome, a train or something else with your wife. That too would become untenable over time.


Then there is the lying to you about this. Even when she saw your brother again. He is older than her and you are quite a bit older than her. People will assume that she was more attracted to him but you represented greater security (which may well be the case). So she lied at first to see if she could get away with it (not because she was embarrassed). And because she is younger than you, people will come to the conclusion that to you she is a trophy. 


Finally there is this business of not wanting to do with you what she did with them. Why not ?


So I would say that for your and funnily enough, even her well being you are better off apart. She can go and marry into a family from somewhere that doesn't know her past or where she is from etc. And you have every right to a loving wife that doesn't have a past with your brother and was overly promiscuous with people you know.

So for all concerned, you should end this.


----------



## bandit.45

WonkyNinja said:


> Why? What if she didn't like it, it hurt or it was humiliating? What if it were coerced before or under the influence of alcohol.
> 
> I agree that he has the right to not want a relationship with someone who doesn't want to, for example, do a**l but she shouldn't be compelled to want to do anything.


I guess I should have said, if she enjoyed it with those other partners, she should enjoy it with him as well...unless she went through some complete religious conversion where she was informed that such sex practices are taboo. 

I stand corrected. And you are right, she should not be compelled to have that kind of sex with him, just as he should not be compelled to accept that condition from her.


----------



## Truthseeker1

manfromlamancha said:


> Arnold I am sorry that you are here and fully understand your predicament. I do not think you have weird ideas about women and commend you for your sticking to your values.
> 
> Here are my comments (also on what others have been saying):
> 
> The first issue is that she has slept with your brother. This is going to be awkward to say the least and will probably be untenable in the future. As others have already said, I could not think of marrying someone that my brother fvcked. Especially if it was part of a threesome. So that is the first hurdle you will need to overcome - pretty tough if not impossible to do.
> 
> 
> The next thing is that this is not like these are her past sexual partners that you are never likely to see. They are from your hometown and there were a great many of them. And its not like they wouldn't remember her (she was like the college bike - everyone rode her). These are people you are going to interact with and unless she lists everyone of them (if she even remembers) you are likely to be shaking hands with them not knowing if they were in a threesome, a train or something else with your wife. That too would become untenable over time.
> 
> 
> Then there is the lying to you about this. Even when she saw your brother again. He is older than her and you are quite a bit older than her. People will assume that she was more attracted to him but you represented greater security (which may well be the case). So she lied at first to see if she could get away with it (not because she was embarrassed). And because she is younger than you, people will come to the conclusion that to you she is a trophy.
> 
> 
> Finally there is this business of not wanting to do with you what she did with them. Why not ?
> 
> 
> So I would say that for your and funnily enough, even her well being you are better off apart. She can go and marry into a family from somewhere that doesn't know her past or where she is from etc. And you have every right to a loving wife that doesn't have a past with your brother and was overly promiscuous with people you know.
> 
> So for all concerned, you should end this.


Men get hammered for being dogs when it comes to sex and when we come across one who is not - and desires a partner who wasn't promiscuous either - he gets hammered for that too...you just cant win...bottom line is it fvcking OK to not want a wife who has been around the blocks more times than you can count...thats not a weird standard it used to be THE standard...guys who are not promiscuous shouldn't have to suck it up because some reformed party girl wants a "safe" husband...sorry but the OP shouldn't be attacked for having standards..EVERYONE has them and that makes a potential partner more or less valuable in their eyes...women do it all the fvcking time...


----------



## WorkingWife

maritalloneliness said:


> Are we still adhering to double standards. If the situation was reversed and it was the girl who found out that her soon to be husband was a ***** monger, would we encourage her to break off the wedding. Everyone has a past nowadays, it is foolish to think that we would never run across a partner's ex lover . Now from what you posted , she has been faithful to you and your relationship. I assume that to wait for the wedding night was a mutual decision. You're punishing her for what she did in the past and not appreciating the person she is today. What do people mean when they say "I love you" when conditions are placed on that love for things that happened in the past. The wedding vows shouldn't say until death do we part instead it should state until I find out about your sexual past or until you piss me off or until I get tired of you. What the hell, why marry at all?


If he had a lot of group sex? 
YES I would definitely encourage her to break off the relationship. 

If he told her he was waiting for marriage for sex but never disclosed that he'd already had a lot of sex? 
YES I would definitely encourage her to break off the relationship. 

If he said he wasn't into oral sex and she finds out he did tons of it for others? Yes... 

But I wonder if the OP is even for real.


----------



## Truthseeker1

WorkingWife said:


> If he had a lot of group sex?
> YES I would definitely encourage her to break off the relationship.
> 
> If he told her he was waiting for marriage for sex but never disclosed that he'd already had a lot of sex?
> YES I would definitely encourage her to break off the relationship.
> 
> If he said he wasn't into oral sex and she finds out he did tons of it for others? Yes...
> 
> But I wonder if the OP is even for real.


Great post..I think most people just want a person with a similar sexual past to their own...

As to your point about oral - I actually knew a woman like that who lost count of her partners somewhere over 100...but was hesitant to give oral sex any more and only wanted it missionary style for the most part...


----------



## drifter777

Dude - you will NEVER get the image of her getting tag-teamed by your brother and some other guy. And how many times? 

If all of her activities didn't include family and friends I would encourage you to look past her past and give her a chance. But under these circumstances you have to call off the wedding. It's for her sake as much as yours. I mean, you will never treat her as "special" in the sex department and she will feel that. And of course every family get together will be horribly awkward. Can you imagine? You both deserve to go into marriage with a clean slate.


----------



## Jasel

You should really just call the wedding off period. I'm not sure how post-posting it is going to fix anything except drag the inevitable out unnecessarily.


----------



## Sports Fan

Look everybody has a past and its how she treats you that matters.

She could have very well have grown up a lot since then.

My own sister in law was a real slu...t back in the day. Slept with anyone that would have approached her. 

Now she is a respectful loving housewife.

Its your call but if she has given you no reason to mistrust her and she treats you right be the bigger man here.


----------



## Satya

SecondTime'Round said:


> One of my BFFs from college was like your fiance. She genuinely did "reform" and is now a very devoted wife and mother (of four). Her life is so completely vanilla now, and she's super happy with it. Her husband knew her, warts (literally) and all, and accepted her for who she was, what she had done, and how she vowed to be different. Her husband was very much like you when we were all in college (20+years ago)
> 
> Have you guys had STD testing? Have you talked about it at all?


Just to echo what ST'R offered, I also had a good friend that was exactly the same. I have no idea if she told her husband about her past (I have barely had any contact with her in years) but a big part of me hopes she did. She was also a genuine reformer.


----------



## WorkingWife

Sports Fan said:


> Look everybody has a past and its how she treats you that matters.
> 
> She could have very well have grown up a lot since then.
> 
> My own sister in law was a real slu...t back in the day. Slept with anyone that would have approached her.
> 
> Now she is a respectful loving housewife.
> 
> Its your call but if she has given you no reason to mistrust her and she treats you right be the bigger man here.


I mostly agree with this, it's who she is today that matters. Many people have regrettable pasts and do change. But you have to wonder how good their relationship is if she told him she wants to wait for marriage for sex and never mentioned her past at all.

I would expect her to minimize it, but you'd think she'd at least say something about not being a virgin and having made past mistakes and learning from them. 

Also, if she had a 3 way with his brother? That could make for some awkward family get togethers...


----------



## TRy

arnold81 said:


> she would sleep with him along with other numerous men. He said she had no shame and would routinely let men finish in her mouth and on her body.





arnold81 said:


> Also, she specifically told me that she isn't into oral and anal and I was fine with that. I love a woman that respects her body. However, I found that she has done both of these things with other men.





arnold81 said:


> I've been intimate with her and other girlfriends in my past but it never went past kissing and groping.





arnold81 said:


> She says that she initially lied because it was a difficult time in her past that she wants to forget.





arnold81 said:


> It's the part about my brother and the part about the details of the 3 way that have me going crazy.


 So as it stands now, your younger bother and his friends have had sex with your fiance multiple times including 3 way, oral sex, and anal sex, and based on lies all you have been able to do with her is a little "kissing and groping". Not only that, but even if you marry her, your bother and his freinds will always know her sexually better than you, because she will not do oral sex, anal sex, or 3 way with you even after you marry her. In her and your bother's memory of life, they will place higher in sexual intimacy with each other than she will with you. 



arnold81 said:


> I do kind of feel bad about my fiancee because I'm feeling like I'm judging her for things that happened in her past. She doesn't even want to talk about it at this point.


 Judging people for their past is a normal part of the marriage decision process, and you should stop feeling bad about it. In deciding who to marry, you are allowed to discriminate. You do not have to be fair when it comes to deciding who to marry. The big deal about this situation is that she deliberately lied to you about who she is in order to trick you into marriage. Also, it is common for couples to have a boundary that you cannot have opposite sex friends (OSF) that are people that you have slept with in the past. You cannot have that boundary with you wife unless you disown your brother, which would be unfair to him.


----------



## Catherine602

I don't think the issue is the sexual double standard. I hate that women are judged and men are congratulated for the same activities. But this isn't about that, it's about a person's right to choose and know the real person and not a fabrication. 

If she were a recovering alcoholic or drug addict or had 3 children in foster care and hid it, what would most people say? She simply lied and that is exactly what this lady did. 

He is not judging anyone by making a choice and he is not supporting separate and unequal sexual standards for men and women. His life style seems to have been consistent with the standards he set for a partner. She knew what they were when she first met him. 

The only double standard I see is that he has been honest and she has not.


----------



## TX-SC

It is perfectly respectable for a person to change their views on sex. I'm certainly not into **** shaming. 

However, it is also perfectly reasonable to seek to marry a person who shares your views on sex, and that includes in the past. 

I have never been into group sex, swinging, etc., but I have dated several girls who would not have dated/continued to date me if I had been into those things. In fact, I don't know if my wife would have dated me if I had done those things. I too have a right to chose someone I feel has my same views on sex. I don't care how cool she is, if I found out she was into fraternity gangbangs, I'd likely not date her.


----------



## Evinrude58

So now some of you are too whimpified by the feminists to call a nasty skank, a nasty skank.

OP's girl is the town easy.

If he wants a girl with those kind of morals, have at it. But later, he shouldn't be surprised if she demonstrates low character in other aspects of her life. She's already demonstrated that she can lie easily, and spread her legs easily--- to everyone but OP.
I doubt this while thing is real.
But, it seems to me that this woman was providing a false image of herself as this person of character, when the truth is, that's not her.

His brother came to him for a reason. To ignore that is stupid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

I think of this in terms of classical liberalism (modern libertarianism). You have a right to pursue whatever interests you choose to pursue. You also have a duty to own the choices you made for yourself. The fiance in this thread did not own her choices. Therefore, she failed to meet the standards of the OP. Happens all the time in the dating world. Too bad it took until the engagement for the truth to come out.


----------



## LucasJackson

WonkyNinja said:


> It absolutely is anti-women when his brother is "quite the ladies man" for participating in the exact same sex acts that she did and you seem to think his brother is a good person.


His brother warned him about her. That was doing him a solid. As for him, I would tell any woman thinking of marrying him to steer clear. When it comes to the ladies he has some douche tendencies. He can be a good brother but a douche to the ladies. The two aren't mutually exclusive. I do hope OP steers clear of the skank. She won't change.


----------



## Starstarfish

I'm sorry, but isn't part of the fault here the OPs? He asked her to marry him before he -allowed- her to meet his family. I mean, up until that point who is to say she even realized that guy was his brother?



> Not only that, but even if you marry her, your bother and his freinds will always know her sexually better than you, because she will not do oral sex, anal sex, or 3 way with you even after you marry her. In her and your bother's memory of life, they will place higher in sexual intimacy with each other than she will with you.


This is the crap on TAM I totally hate. And this is why no woman wants to answer questions about her past. If as a woman you ever do a sexual act ever you are thus required to do it and more for every guy you see after that otherwise you get all of this psychobabble crap about who "knows you better" and where they place on your sexual intimacy ladder.

Also I don't see anyone saying all of the wives on here where male OPs bemoan not having threeways or anal that if they indeed give in to those requests they'll be "used goods." Maybe we should start warning those women that when their relationships implode, that's how they'll be seen by any future male.


----------



## LucasJackson

Evinrude58 said:


> So now some of you are too whimpified by the feminists to call a nasty skank, a nasty skank.
> 
> OP's girl is the town easy.
> 
> If he wants a girl with those kind of morals, have at it. But later, he shouldn't be surprised if she demonstrates low character in other aspects of her life. She's already demonstrated that she can lie easily, and spread her legs easily--- to everyone but OP.
> I doubt this while thing is real.
> But, it seems to me that this woman was providing a false image of herself as this person of character, when the truth is, that's not her.
> 
> His brother came to him for a reason. To ignore that is stupid.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not too wussified. I've been calling the skank a skank the entire thread. Why? Because it's true. She's nasty and dishonest. A double whammy.


----------



## Catherine602

Starstarfish said:


> I'm sorry, but isn't part of the fault here the OPs? He asked her to marry him before he -allowed- her to meet his family. I mean, up until that point who is to say she even realized that guy was his brother?
> 
> 
> 
> This is the crap on TAM I totally hate. And this is why no woman wants to answer questions about her past. If as a woman you ever do a sexual act ever you are thus required to do it and more for every guy you see after that otherwise you get all of this psychobabble crap about who "knows you better" and where they place on your sexual intimacy ladder.
> 
> Also I don't see anyone saying all of the wives on here where male OPs bemoan not having threeways or anal that if they indeed give in to those requests they'll be "used goods." Maybe we should start warning those women that when their relationships implode, that's how they'll be seen by any future male.


My senses tell me that the thread is staged to dredge up [email protected] and [email protected] haters and effectively so. You know the drill, innocent man looking for a pure wife and get a [email protected] instead. 

This tale plays into the primal fears of many men, not knowing exactly what his wife did with her body before him. The fear that he is not getting from her what she gave to others or that she enjoyed herself too much with other men. 

There fears spill out in the form of diatribes much too angry given the subject matter. Still, it's interesting to read the reactions, the hatred is astounding. It's like the [email protected]'s hurt the angry men personally. Weird. 

Forgive me OP if you are sincere.


----------



## TRy

Starstarfish said:


> I'm sorry, but isn't part of the fault here the OPs? He asked her to marry him before he -allowed- her to meet his family. I mean, up until that point who is to say she even realized that guy was his brother?


 It does not matter when she knew or who is at fault. All that matters is the fact that she had a wild sexual relationship with his brother, and he may not want a person that had an extensive sexual relationship with his brother as his wife. 



Starstarfish said:


> This is the crap on TAM I totally hate. And this is why no woman wants to answer questions about her past. If as a woman you ever do a sexual act ever you are thus required to do it and more for every guy you see after that otherwise you get all of this psychobabble crap about who "knows you better" and where they place on your sexual intimacy ladder.


 We are not talking about just any guy. We are talking about the fact that the other man is his bother that will be a part of his family life for the rest of his life. If he is faithful this will be the only woman that he has ever had sex with, and his brother would know her sexually better than he ever will. That is a huge mind fu*k that will never go away. If you do not understand this that is fine, but he has a right to his own feelings on this.



Starstarfish said:


> Also I don't see anyone saying all of the wives on here where male OPs bemoan not having threeways or anal that if they indeed give in to those requests they'll be "used goods." Maybe we should start warning those women that when their relationships implode, that's how they'll be seen by any future male.


 Stop making believe that family is not suppose to be a factor in this. Also, when picking a spouse, he does not have to place being fair to her, over the way this makes him feel as a man.


----------



## alexm

I don't have siblings. If I did, and found out that the woman I loved and was to marry had been with my brother, I couldn't take that. I wouldn't be mad or disgusted, put any sort of blame on her or hold it against her. But I couldn't be with somebody who had been with a sibling, or other family member. It's just weird.

I can relate to OP somewhat (a tiny bit, any way). My wife didn't hide her past, per se, but she was extremely reluctant to let me in to just about any part of it. AFAIK, she didn't get around the same way this woman did, but she had her fair share of experience.

And guess what? It was THAT that bothered me. It was the not owning it that did. It was knowing that her values and my values did not line up exactly. They are not far enough apart to have called off the wedding, but just enough for me to have to think about it first.

That said, my wife does everything with/for me in the bedroom, nothing's off the table. This woman has expressly told OP what won't be happening in that regard. She's ENTITLED, of course, but it's very likely because she feels shame about those particular acts. Bringing that shame into a marriage is not healthy, nor will it bode well for OP.

But what's the biggest concern to me is that this woman is clearly, CLEARLY looking for the "safe" guy. What's safer than a 34 year old virgin with a solid job?

She's also probably none-too-pleased that her past has been blown up, but probably because it negates the whole "starting fresh, I'm a good girl now, I'm trying to forget the past" thing.

There's nothing inherently wrong, per se, for a guy or girl to do what she did. No judgement here. But you have to own it.

What I've already told my 15 year old is to not take sex lightly. Have it when you're ready, but understand that what you do in that regard now will follow you into adulthood and beyond. And this is exactly what we're seeing here, with this woman. Everything one does has consequences, so best to recognize that and live accordingly.

Honestly, it sucks for her. She's done nothing wrong, nor should she even be ashamed, IMO. But it's left her with a huge conundrum, in terms of mate selection. If she hides or lies about it, that's not good. If she owns it (as she should), she has to trust that her partner will not react the way OP has, or I would, or many, many other prospective partners would.

And this, again, is what I tell my 15 year old - everything you do now, no matter how small or meaningless at the moment, can come back and bite you in the ass in ways you don't even comprehend at the moment. I don't quite put it like that, as that would be scary, and he'd never leave the house, but I get my point across to him. And it's true. Things I've done in the past have come back to haunt me in one way or another.

It doesn't necessarily mean that the things you do when you're younger make you a bad person. But what it does do is things like this, and can sometimes severely hamper your future self in ways you didn't even think about when you did them. That's life.

You can't dwell on the past, but you can't run from it, either.


----------



## Personal

alexm said:


> But what's the biggest concern to me is that this woman is clearly, CLEARLY looking for the "safe" guy. What's safer than a 34 year old virgin with a solid job?


In this era, a 34 year old virgin is likely to bring a boatload of stinking resentment amongst a kaleidoscope of other problems, there's nothing safe in pursuing that.

Women can get solid jobs you know...


----------



## whitewolf

Young sir,
What a person does before they become exclusive and then marry someone else should be immaterial to the marriage. But, if you can't live with her past then don't marry her. If I was in your shoes I would do several things. (1) Make sure she understands there will be no inhibitions in your sex life. Whatever she has done before with someone else she should be willing to do with you. Besides, if you never had sex you are in for the time of your life. (2)You will always be her one and only. There will be no exceptions and no second chances. (3) You won't bring up her past and you will not allow anyone else to do so. This is a must. (4) Here is the most important one. Get a Premarital Agreement. Have it drawn up by a lawyer. Protect yourself and your assets. If she loves you and wants to marry you she will sign it. Everyone has a past. Some wilder than others. I think of mine sometimes and it scares me. But, anyone can change. I don't know if you are the alpha male type but if you aren't then learn become one because that is what she needs. Someone to love her but also someone to protect her against those that would drag her through the mud. If you can't do that then you don't need to be with her. It all comes down to, do you love her enough. I wish you well.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

whitewolf said:


> Young sir,
> What a person does before they become exclusive and then marry someone else should be immaterial to the marriage. But, if you can't live with her past then don't marry her. If I was in your shoes I would do several things. (1) Make sure she understands there will be no inhibitions in your sex life. Whatever she has done before with someone else she should be willing to do with you.


Umm you DO see the contradiction right? If their history is immaterial, if you were in his shoes, you wouldn't demand no inhibitions and ask her to be open for the same sex acts. It's before you so, it is irrelevant to the relationship.


----------



## larry.gray

WonkyNinja said:


> It absolutely is anti-women when his brother is "quite the ladies man" for participating in the exact same sex acts that she did and you seem to think his brother is a good person.


A dude is a ladies man if he manages to get a FMF (or FFM could be fun too). But a dude participating in a MFM isn't a ladies man...


----------



## Truthseeker1

alexm said:


> But what's the biggest concern to me is that this woman is clearly, CLEARLY looking for the "safe" guy. What's safer than a 34 year old virgin with a solid job?


He is the safe choice in her head - she gets her nice "safe husband" but he has to suck it up and accept her past...doesn't work that way.. He has the right to choose the spouse he wants and what he will accept


----------



## Truthseeker1

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Umm you DO see the contradiction right? If their history is immaterial, if you were in his shoes, you wouldn't demand no inhibitions and ask her to be open for the same sex acts. It's before you so, it is irrelevant to the relationship.


I do love it when people say what se did before th emarriage was not relevant or none of his business..but if he had a sketchy past with drugs or eomployment history or whatever you can bet she'd be takign that into consideration..we all get to determine the stndards we impose for those we want to marry..

I get it people with a past have an easier time accepting others wiht a similar past - but people who have waited or who have not been promiscuous have every fvcking right to want someone ike themselves...


----------



## Truthseeker1

TRy said:


> Stop making believe that family is not suppose to be a factor in this. Also, when picking a spouse, he does not have to place being fair to her, over the way this makes him feel as a man.


This is the reverse of slvtshaming...they shame less promiscuous folks who want people with a past similar to themselves...


----------



## Truthseeker1

Catherine602 said:


> He is not judging anyone by making a choice and he is not supporting separate and unequal sexual standards for men and women. His life style seems to have been consistent with the standards he set for a partner. She knew what they were when she first met him.
> 
> The only double standard I see is that he has been honest and she has not.


This! His lifestyle does seem to be consistent and there is not a thing wrong with wanting someone who has a similar sexual past that yourself..nothing...like you stated if he hid things abut his past that were unsavory they wouldn't be telling her ot suck it up and move on...


----------



## GusPolinski

About to head off to bed but wanted to share this first...

Ladies, this is exactly why you _should_ share your history, "number", or whatever when asked -- and maybe even w/o being asked -- by a partner. Share it, and do so _early on_. I realize this may sound counter-intuitive, but consider this -- if OP's fiancée had been honest w/ him much earlier in their relationship, all of this could've been avoided. He might have been understanding, in which case it wouldn't have been an issue, or he might have been really douchey about it, in which case she could have dumped him. Or maybe he would've seemed OK w/ it at the time and slowly turned into a douche about it, in which case she could have dumped him.

Instead, the truth regarding her past was revealed to him a) through no fault of his own and b) in one of the absolute worst ways possible.

It's not about accountability or anything like that (how could it be?), but rather about being up front and honest in order to eliminate any chances that a "worst case" type reveal will somehow occur, thereby putting the months or years that both parties have invested into the relationship in jeopardy.

@marduk, I especially like your "Being her first means nothing, but being her last means everything" comment. That said, I'd imagine that what a lot of guys that find themselves dealing w/ something like this would struggle with is a) some sort of (realistic) assurance that they would indeed be their respective partners' "last" (LOL... as if...) and b) coming to terms w/ the notion that they might never be "best".

OP, if you're at all inclined to stay in this relationship, stay calm and do your best to create a "non-judgey" environment that will allow your fiancée to open up and share w/ you.

And, again, insist on STD tests.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> I'm sorry, but isn't part of the fault here the OPs?


No.



> He asked her to marry him before he -allowed- her to meet his family.


 He still would have fell in love so, the heart break would be just as bad and he would still be conflicted just without a marriage proposal. 



> I mean, up until that point who is to say she even realized that guy was his brother?


Still, doesn't explain why she said nothing about his brother for over a month.


----------



## larry.gray

GusPolinski said:


> And, again, insist on STD tests.


Plus - get the Guardasil shot sequence. Your doctor will likely resist and your insurance won't cover it as they were unable to find test subjects over 26 so it isn't label for those over 26. But if you insist you will find a doctor who will give it to you. Save yourself from the risks of penile and throat cancer.


----------



## Truthseeker1

GusPolinski said:


> @marduk, I especially like your "Being her first means nothing, but being her last means everything" comment. That said, I'd imagine that what a lot of guys that find themselves dealing w/ something like this would struggle with is a) some sort of (realistic) assurance that they would indeed be their respective partners' "last" (LOL... as if...) and b) coming to terms w/ the notion that they might never be "best".
> .


Why is he a douche for wanting a woman with a similar sexual past to his own?

As to the statement "being her last means everything" that depends if being her last means you were the safe choice, the guy who would stick around now that her partying days are over...

Another pont the woman the OP describes is not the norm..most people accept that their partner will have had sexual experience before them...but many would not accept a past that involves a really high level of promiscuity...

Also posters who think men who find out their wife or gf did stuff with other guys and think are entitled to it - that is not it at all in many cases ..men dont want ot feel like her previous partners got her best while they got the rest...should it be tit for tat or should she be forced to do thing she doesnt like - no - but neitheris it an automatic sense of entitlement on the part of the man who wonders why did she she do X with him and not with me..

Like I said earlier what goes on now is the reverse of slvtshaming...people who are not promiscuous are expected to shut up and accept everything in their partners past..that is utter bullsh!t...

There are plenty of good men and women out there...you just have to go find one...


----------



## TRy

whitewolf said:


> What a person does before they become exclusive and then marry someone else should be immaterial to the marriage.


 Although you may feel that "What a person does before they become exclusive and then marry someone else should be immaterial to the marriage", it is just as legitimate for someone else to feel that it is material. You are entitled to your standards and others are entitled to their standards. Some people would not care if their spouse had been a stripper and a prostitute before they married them, some people are looking for someone like them that have saved themselves for marriage, and others are somewhere in between. Among my friends the standard seems to be that you should only have had sex with people that meant something to you. Regardless, no one gets to say that their belief on this is the superior way. Everyone has the right to decide for themselves. What you do not get to do is to lie to a potential mate about this in the hopes of tricking them into marrying you.


----------



## Truthseeker1

TRy said:


> Although you may feel that "What a person does before they become exclusive and then marry someone else should be immaterial to the marriage", it is just as legitimate for someone else to feel that it is material. You are entitled to your standards and others are entitled to their standards. Some people would not care if their spouse had been a stripper and a prostitute before they married them, some people are looking for someone like them that have saved themselves for marriage, and others are somewhere in between. *Among my friends the standard seems to be that you should only have had sex with people that meant something to you.* Regardless, no one gets to say that their belief on this is the superior way. Everyone has the right to decide for themselves. What you do not get to do is to lie to a potential mate about this in the hopes of tricking them into marrying you.


Great postand VERY sensible - the highlighted has been my experience too .and this includes BOTH men and women who feel this way...


----------



## TRy

Truthseeker1 said:


> but neither is it an automatic sense of entitlement on the part of the man who wonders why did she she do X with him and not with me.


 :smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:
It is even worse when the "him" that she did "X" with was his very own brother, such that he "wonders why did she she do X with" my brother "and not with me", even though I would be married and committed to her, while my brother told me that she meant nothing to him?


----------



## Truthseeker1

TRy said:


> :smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:
> It is even worse when the "him" that she did "X" with was his very own brother, such that he "wonders why did she she do X with" my brother "and not with me", even though I would be married and committed to her, while my brother told me that she meant nothing to him?


The OPs case aside it IS a legitimate question for the man to ask..no guy wants to feel like the "safe choice" and I would advise any man whose woman makes him feel that way to talka bout it with her and if he still not satisfied then leave...just because she settled doesn't mean you have to...


----------



## bandit.45

All this talk of sex must have scared Arnold back under his bridge.


----------



## Starstarfish

GusPolinski said:


> About to head off to bed but wanted to share this first...
> 
> Ladies, this is exactly why you _should_ share your history, "number", or whatever when asked -- and maybe even w/o being asked -- by a partner. Share it, and do so _early on_. I realize this may sound counter-intuitive, but consider this -- if OP's fiancée had been honest w/ him much earlier in their relationship, all of this could've been avoided. He might have been understanding, in which case it wouldn't have been an issue, or he might have been really douchey about it, in which case she could have dumped him. Or maybe he would've seemed OK w/ it at the time and slowly turned into a douche about it, in which case she could have dumped him.
> 
> Instead, the truth regarding her past was revealed to him a) through no fault of his own and b) in one of the absolute worst ways possible.
> 
> It's not about accountability or anything like that (how could it be?), but rather about being up front and honest in order to eliminate any chances that a "worst case" type reveal will somehow occur, thereby putting the months or years that both parties have invested into the relationship in jeopardy.
> 
> @marduk, I especially like your "Being her first means nothing, but being her last means everything" comment. That said, I'd imagine that what a lot of guys that find themselves dealing w/ something like this would struggle with is a) some sort of (realistic) assurance that they would indeed be their respective partners' "last" (LOL... as if...) and b) coming to terms w/ the notion that they might never be "best".
> 
> OP, if you're at all inclined to stay in this relationship, stay calm and do your best to create a "non-judgey" environment that will allow your fiancée to open up and share w/ you.
> 
> And, again, insist on STD tests.


The problem sometimes is the "slowly turning into a douche over time about it" can be 12 years later after you are married and he suddenly gets retroactive jealousy and then demands a hall pass or open marriage or whatever else. 

Those threads are here on TAM, so really it seems like a no win. Even if you are honest and someone accepts things, no guarantee it isn't an issue later.

And the mentally is well ... as a woman your choices have meaning. If you don't have sex by date X, you are using the guy for food money. If you do and too many dates don't work out you are now "used goods." Ugh.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Starstarfish said:


> The problem sometimes is the "slowly turning into a douche over time about it" can be 12 years later after you are married and he suddenly gets retroactive jealousy and then demands a hall pass or open marriage or whatever else.
> 
> Those threads are here on TAM, so really it seems like a no win. Even if you are honest and someone accepts things, no guarantee it isn't an issue later.
> 
> And the mentally is well ... as a woman your choices have meaning. If you don't have sex by date X, you are using the guy for food money. If you do and too many dates don't work out you are now "used goods." Ugh.


Any guy who gets the full truth from his lady at the beginning and married her and then gets retroactive jealousy 12 years later IS a douche. My problem is with lying to secure a spouse and then when the truth is uncovered the spouse is supposed ot suck it up and go on trusting. Life doesn't work that way.

As to the metality that if I dont get sex by date Y she is using me or if we break up she is used goods is bullsh!t. Most men if not all the men I know don't think that even the anti-feminists. What does turn a lot of men off is if their partner was promiscuous and they weren't - not all men but a lot. 

The choices we make in life ALL of them not just pertaining to sex can and do effect our lives down the line from getting an education to sleeping around...what I get from this discussion is many people don't want their previous choices about sex to interfere with landing a spouse who might have different values about sex - values they now have come to believe. It really is a cake eating position - I want to do X but not have X effect my life in anyway down the line. I think it is just the sign of a more promiscuous age.


----------



## Truthseeker1

bandit.45 said:


> All this talk of sex must have scared Arnold back under his bridge.


This thread has been a more "theoretical" discussion....>


----------



## alexm

Personal said:


> In this era, a 34 year old virgin is likely to bring a boatload of stinking resentment amongst a kaleidoscope of other problems, there's nothing safe in pursuing that.
> 
> Women can get solid jobs you know...


It's mostly the virginity and "good guy" thing she's probably after. She didn't see that resentment could be a problem until now.

The sheer fact that she's waiting til marriage shows me that she isn't interested, or cares about, that part of the relationship. Why? Because she's experienced enough to know that compatibility in the bedroom is important to a marriage, and she isn't interested to find out beforehand. That and taking at least two things off the table - one of them extremely basic and common, oral sex - tells me that she really doesn't, and won't care if there's a physical, sexual chemistry between them.

Make no mistake - she knows what to do in the bedroom. And she also has experience with men who do, and with men who don't. She knows, by this point, what men want sexually, and what works for them, and she has enough experience to be a good lover. Yet she's already basically said (without saying) that she's not interested in being a good lover to her future husband.

Basically, she's had her sexual fun and now no longer cares about it. Or worse, is purposefully making it a non-issue.

In other words, she is separating her past sexuality from her coming marriage - the two won't meet, ever. Sex is sex. Marriage is marriage.

If I were a 30-something-year-old virgin, planning on only being with one person my entire life, it would not be with somebody who possibly isn't striving for the "whole package".

Furthermore, and I don't believe this has been touched on in this thread yet - those who have pasts such as this woman tend to view sex in a very black and white manner. Sex is "just sex". It means nothing. It's just for fun. etc etc etc. Or even worse things, if there's a level of shame involved. OP, having saved himself and with no experience, will certainly view sex in a VERY different way than his future wife.

For him, it will be both loving AND fun. The way it should be. To her, it may very well be neither. If the bulk of her sexual experience (or all of it) has come from casual relationships and the like (which is highly possible, given she's only 26) then she'll already have been conditioned that way.

And you know what? If she's already decided she's going to limit herself in the bedroom with OP, then the quality of sex will follow suit. At some point, he will want more. And at some point, SHE will want more, as she will know what good sex is. She may not recall the scenarios in which she had good sex fondly, but she will still know what good, non-vanilla sex is. And because she can't/won't equate her husband with those scenarios, she will have a helluva hard time having "good" sex with him, especially if she has set her limits with him in advance.

And the likely reason she's decided no oral or anal with OP is because she views those two acts (rather arbitrarily, I might add) as things one does with people who don't matter. Or things "bad girls" do. Or something along those lines. She's put OP up on this pedestal of sorts, as he's not a player with a wild and crazy past. He's a good man, a complete 180 from anybody she has experience with before. Doing something such as performing oral on him may cause some of this fantasy land thinking she has about him to erode, and she doesn't want that. OP got the lovely mental picture and description of his soon-to-be-wife having men finish on her face/mouth/other places. The anal sex may be a no-go for him now, because she's engaged in MMF 3-somes, which probably means... you know... Use your imagination.

So both oral and anal sex are now viewed by her as "dirty" things that she doesn't want to replicate for her future husband, because he's a "good man", not like those other guys.

re: the job thing - I didn't mean he has a solid job, therefore she doesn't have to. You're reading into that. I meant he's not unemployed and living in mom's basement.


----------



## Personal

@alexm, I just wonder if any of this is true?


----------



## Truthseeker1

Personal said:


> @alexm, I just wonder if any of this is true?


I can't attest to the OPs story but I have known not one but THREE ex party girls who did similar things..one even found religion and said she preferred a male virgin as a spouse if you can believe that one and siad in no uncertain terms oral was out and so were a variety of positions...she told me this with a straight face..and then condemned any man who wouldn't marry a woman who didn't do oral....


----------



## arnold81

Starstarfish said:


> I'm sorry, but isn't part of the fault here the OPs? He asked her to marry him before he -allowed- her to meet his family. I mean, up until that point who is to say she even realized that guy was his brother?
> 
> 
> 
> This is the crap on TAM I totally hate. And this is why no woman wants to answer questions about her past. If as a woman you ever do a sexual act ever you are thus required to do it and more for every guy you see after that otherwise you get all of this psychobabble crap about who "knows you better" and where they place on your sexual intimacy ladder.
> 
> Also I don't see anyone saying all of the wives on here where male OPs bemoan not having threeways or anal that if they indeed give in to those requests they'll be "used goods." Maybe we should start warning those women that when their relationships implode, that's how they'll be seen by any future male.


She knew of my family before she met them because I told her all about them. They just didn't meet her until I was sure about her. I don't bring random women around to meet my family. Not knocking anyone that does, but it's just not me.


----------



## Personal

Truthseeker1 said:


> I can't attest to the OPs story but I have known not one but THREE ex party girls who did similar things..one even found religion and said she preferred a male virgin as a spouse if you can believe that one and siad in no uncertain terms oral was out and so were a variety of positions...she told me this with a straight face..and then condemned any man who wouldn't marry a woman who didn't do oral....


That's nuts, I'm so glad I don't know such people.


----------



## RWB

bandit.45 said:


> All this talk of sex must have scared Arnold back under his bridge.


I wonder now? If you can get a BANNED status for a "Like"?


----------



## Truthseeker1

Personal said:


> That's nuts, I'm so glad I don't know such people.


Yeah and I pointed how how nuts it was - gently - and she was not pleased lol


----------



## MEM2020

Catherine,

Maybe - maybe he was honest with her.

He remains steadfastly silent on numerous key issues. 






Catherine602 said:


> I don't think the issue is the sexual double standard. I hate that women are judged and men are congratulated for the same activities. But this isn't about that, it's about a person's right to choose and know the real person and not a fabrication.
> 
> If she were a recovering alcoholic or drug addict or had 3 children in foster care and hid it, what would most people say? She simply lied and that is exactly what this lady did.
> 
> He is not judging anyone by making a choice and he is not supporting separate and unequal sexual standards for men and women. His life style seems to have been consistent with the standards he set for a partner. She knew what they were when she first met him.
> 
> The only double standard I see is that he has been honest and she has not.


----------



## Marduk

GusPolinski said:


> About to head off to bed but wanted to share this first...
> 
> Ladies, this is exactly why you _should_ share your history, "number", or whatever when asked -- and maybe even w/o being asked -- by a partner. Share it, and do so _early on_. I realize this may sound counter-intuitive, but consider this -- if OP's fiancée had been honest w/ him much earlier in their relationship, all of this could've been avoided. He might have been understanding, in which case it wouldn't have been an issue, or he might have been really douchey about it, in which case she could have dumped him. Or maybe he would've seemed OK w/ it at the time and slowly turned into a douche about it, in which case she could have dumped him.
> 
> Instead, the truth regarding her past was revealed to him a) through no fault of his own and b) in one of the absolute worst ways possible.
> 
> It's not about accountability or anything like that (how could it be?), but rather about being up front and honest in order to eliminate any chances that a "worst case" type reveal will somehow occur, thereby putting the months or years that both parties have invested into the relationship in jeopardy.
> 
> @marduk, I especially like your "Being her first means nothing, but being her last means everything" comment. That said, I'd imagine that what a lot of guys that find themselves dealing w/ something like this would struggle with is a) some sort of (realistic) assurance that they would indeed be their respective partners' "last" (LOL... as if...) and b) coming to terms w/ the notion that they might never be "best".
> 
> OP, if you're at all inclined to stay in this relationship, stay calm and do your best to create a "non-judgey" environment that will allow your fiancée to open up and share w/ you.
> 
> And, again, insist on STD tests.


I agree with you Gus, with a wrinkle. 

I actually _didn't_ want to know my wife's number, because I didn't want to think about it. I know, but didn't choose to know.

And something to consider that most guys don't think about -- a low number doesn't mean a low number of sexual encounters or wild ones at that.

The first few sexual encounters between two people are usually pretty vanilla, and not so fantastic. Good, but not swinging from the chandeliers. 

So, a girl could have been with one guy but had sex thousands of times, in every conceivable way. Or two guys, but those two guys were at the same time hundreds of times.

Or, a girl could have been with 20 guys, each once.

Which one is 'worse' or 'better?' I dunno.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> The problem sometimes is the "slowly turning into a douche over time about it" can be 12 years later after you are married and he suddenly gets retroactive jealousy and then demands a hall pass or open marriage or whatever else.
> 
> Those threads are here on TAM, so really it seems like a no win. Even if you are honest and someone accepts things, no guarantee it isn't an issue later.


Yes, there are a few threads like what you described. Many more are triggered by an ex trying to get back at a former lover or the woman was caught in an EA, PA or inappropriate conversations with another person. Then he gets angry and makes all types of weird and unwarranted demands when he should just divorce her. That's isn't retroactive jealousy it is fear.


----------



## larry.gray

Truthseeker1 said:


> Great postand VERY sensible - the highlighted has been my experience too .and this includes BOTH men and women who feel this way...


That was the standard my wife expressed to me. She was unconcerned with prior sex. She considered a ONS ir cheating a complete deal-breaking past.


----------



## bandit.45

arnold81 said:


> She knew of my family before she met them because I told her all about them. They just didn't meet her until I was sure about her. I don't bring random women around to meet my family. Not knocking anyone that does, but it's just not me.


I'm glad you stuck around Armold. Please keep talking. Don't be shy.


----------



## threelittlestars

So too much of the relationship is based on Ideals and lies. Your ideal was that you were marrying a good girl, with a good wholesome back history and would fit in with your family. 

You have learned that she has been TOO friendly with near half the town including your brother. Now I'm not trying to judge her on her promiscuity, i am judging her on her dishonesty. And the fact you had to learn about her from your own brother. She should have been the one to tell you. She should have been proactive to give you and out. "Hey babe....I know this may change how you feel about me, but your brother and I...." she could have had the decency to be the one to tell you. As well as let you hear it from the other guys after. She deny'ed you that. 

You really CANT marry this girl....even if you still want to. This whole past and situation will haunt you. Better you found out now before its too late.

And you.... I think perhaps you need to change your ideals.... At 26 there are few virginal people without sexual pasts. If you are looking for a madonna you may never find her. But hey, to each their own.


----------



## Truthseeker1

larry.gray said:


> That was the standard my wife expressed to me. She was unconcerned with prior sex. She considered a ONS ir cheating a complete deal-breaking past.


It's a sensible standard and its my standard as well...its NOT being judgemental to have standards for what you want in a spouse...


----------



## Annette Tush

GusPolinski said:


> (Also, I'm not sure I could get images of her w/ my brother and some other dude out of my head. Sorry, but that's just weird.)


That thought of my brother would finish me off. I would occasionally think that maybe they are still doing it behind my back? Ya, had it been strangers, maybe... I would call off my wedding for now, until I am sure I can live this.....


----------



## Yeswecan

From my experience concerning my W and her past, other people she has dated/intimate with eventually move on, lose touch or become a serious non-factor. My W has similar experience with me. Old GF are simply gone. No interest of reconnecting on FB or other nonsense. The past is left in the past. What his STB did in the past should be buried there and long forgotten. And it will with time and make very little difference. The issue here is the past will always be present in the form of his brother. The past will never be buried for the STB. Eventually innuendo will happen between OP brother, family and STB. A scarlet letter if you will. There will be much laughter about it as the OP sits with his head spinning. STB sits embarrassed. It is cruel what some will do and they will do it for a good laugh. Just a matter of time.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Yeswecan said:


> No interest of reconnecting on FB or other nonsense. The past is left in the past. What his STB did in the past should be buried there and long forgotten. And it will with time and make very little difference. .


Not always - a past like that can stick around in the form of an STd or emotional damage..and who wants to deal with that for the rest of their lives?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Sorry, the past sometimes does matter. Personally, a sexual past doesn't matter to me, EXCEPT if it concerns a very good friend or family member. Oh and if you reconnect with an "old friend" and I found out you were sexually intimate. No go in my marriage unless you share a child which means I am an idiot if I didn't know. Sorry, I can go get multiple posts of women dismissing men for sleeping with their cousins, sisters, and mom's. You know because dude must be a commitment averse player. There are certain past details that remain relevant no matter when you find out the information.


----------



## TaDor

niceguy28 said:


> I would call it off tbh. You will NEVER be able to get over the fact that your brother and other dudes ran a train on her and treated her like a complete *****. I don't want to hear this garbage about it being a double standard. Women can get sex MUCH easier than men can because they are women.~~.


Sounds like you resent that its easier for women to get sex. Also keep in mind, that women get hit-on, insulted, treated like sex objects for a large part of their lives.

I also notice that you don't seem to have an issue with the OP' brother? I mean, after-all, the brother had NO problems doing threesomes with other people either, but I'm not seeing you or many people shooting insults at him.

Now, if she has "reformed" and didn't want to hurt the OP about her sexual past - it is somewhat understandable. Look at what re-born Christians are like. Its a double edge sword. As we see, there is a spectrum on how different guys handle the situation differently.


I also don't believe in NO-SEX before marriage. Sexual compatibility is important. There is a lot more to sex than simply "sticking in IN and OUT of her". As someone whose been with over 100 women, I've been with women who were NOT good at sex, and I've heard of much worse from friends. Only a handful were worth anything more than a few months of my time.


----------



## Yeswecan

Truthseeker1 said:


> Not always - a past like that can stick around in the form of an STd or emotional damage..and who wants to deal with that for the rest of their lives?



Agreed. This is part of the fact finding one does when dating. Which brings up another point that has been touched on already, the fact were never presented to the OP. When asked it was denied. When prodded the truth became evident. In my experience, if it starts out bad it never improves.


----------



## niceguy28

TaDor said:


> Sounds like you resent that its easier for women to get sex. Also keep in mind, that women get hit-on, insulted, treated like sex objects for a large part of their lives.
> 
> I also notice that you don't seem to have an issue with the OP' brother? I mean, after-all, the brother had NO problems doing threesomes with other people either, but I'm not seeing you or many people shooting insults at him.
> 
> Now, if she has "reformed" and didn't want to hurt the OP about her sexual past - it is somewhat understandable. Look at what re-born Christians are like. Its a double edge sword. As we see, there is a spectrum on how different guys handle the situation differently.
> 
> 
> I also don't believe in NO-SEX before marriage. Sexual compatibility is important. There is a lot more to sex than simply "sticking in IN and OUT of her". As someone whose been with over 100 women, I've been with women who were NOT good at sex, and I've heard of much worse from friends. Only a handful were worth anything more than a few months of my time.


It has nothing to do with resentment. I'm just stating facts. At the end of the day this comes down to whether he can deal with it or not. People can't expect not to be judged by their past. I'm not saying that people don't deserve second chances but we can't go on and think we can do things and that people are just supposed to forget about it. Are you honestly telling me that you could live with this yourself if you were in his shoes? If you can then you are a better man than me.


----------



## WonkyNinja

GusPolinski said:


> About to head off to bed but wanted to share this first...
> 
> Ladies, this is exactly why you _should_ share your history, "number", or whatever when asked -- and maybe even w/o being asked -- by a partner. Share it, and do so _early on_. I realize this may sound counter-intuitive, but consider this -- if OP's fiancée had been honest w/ him much earlier in their relationship, all of this could've been avoided.


I agree, but it applies to the men just as much as the ladies. They have just the same right to know about his past and accept or reject it as the men do.



TaDor said:


> Sounds like you resent that its easier for women to get sex. Also keep in mind, that women get hit-on, insulted, treated like sex objects for a large part of their lives.
> 
> I also notice that you don't seem to have an issue with the OP' brother? I mean, after-all, the brother had NO problems doing threesomes with other people either, but I'm not seeing you or many people shooting insults at him.
> 
> Now, if she has "reformed" and didn't want to hurt the OP about her sexual past - it is somewhat understandable. Look at what re-born Christians are like. Its a double edge sword. As we see, there is a spectrum on how different guys handle the situation differently.


:iagree:



Truthseeker1 said:


> It's a sensible standard and its my standard as well...its NOT being judgemental to have standards for what you want in a spouse...


I agree completely. 

But it is judgmental to slvt shame people just because they don't, or didn't, share your standards. OP stated - "He said she had no shame and would routinely let men finish in her mouth and on her body. All in all, she was a real *****." His brother did exactly the same as this girl but he is a "ladies man" as though that is some sort of compliment.

I agree there are women who want to party hard then marry a "safe guy" but there are just as many men who want to party hard, be promiscuous and then walk up the garden path with a "nice girl" that mom and the family will approve of. Both are equally wrong.


----------



## GusPolinski

WonkyNinja said:


> I agree, but it applies to the men just as much as the ladies. They have just the same right to know about his past and accept or reject it as the men do.


100% agree
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

marduk said:


> And that's what I would have a problem with right there.
> 
> However -- *go and talk to women and get their perspective on how it goes when they're honest about their sexual past.*
> 
> I give them a lot of leeway on this. For myself, I just don't ask questions that I don't want to know or think about.
> 
> But my wife is exceedingly, painfully honest about her past. And refuses to be shamed over it. And I think that's good.
> 
> And I think fixating on the past is bad.
> 
> And I haven't been 100% honest with her about mine, either. There's things I wouldn't tell her about, because it's pointless and would upset her and worry her. For example, I had a 3-way with two early 20 year olds.
> 
> How is my wife supposed to compete with that experience? Is she supposed to believe that it was actually pretty 'meh' and complicated and not really like it happens in porn at all?
> 
> So I just don't tell her.
> 
> In MC I had to really, really accept that honesty is a two way street. The giver of information needs to be honest, but the reciever needs to be able to recieve the honesty.
> 
> Really, I would focus on the honesty aspect, and dig deep to see if I could be with a girl my brother had been with. I mean Christmases and stuff would be weird.
> 
> He can choose who he wants to be with. I just want him to think long-term, not just about the here and now.


Any shaming and name calling aside, what they learn is their past behavior has closed certain doors in the present and future. They may not like it, but the reality is, no behavior happens in a vacuum.

As to the shaming and name calling, they also have the ability to walk away and not stay around to take it.

There really is no such thing as the past is the past, no matter how people try and spin it in a way that is most convenient at the time. In some cases, it's my past made me who I am today, and the very next is that the past is the past and I'm no longer the same person. Well, which one is it? The only real way around that conundrum is to simply be honest, and not spin it at all.


----------



## MyRevelation

TaDor said:


> I also notice that you don't seem to have an issue with the OP' brother? I mean, after-all, the brother had NO problems doing threesomes with other people either, but I'm not seeing you or many people shooting insults at him.


That's because that isn't the fact set of this thread.

Now if it was the fiance's sister that was the OP and was getting ready to marry the brother, then you would likely see the same responses in reverse. People would be telling the sister she'd never get over her new hubby riding the tilt-a-whirl with her sister.

It isn't the genders that make this situation unbearable, it's the FACTS.


----------



## TRy

Yeswecan said:


> The issue here is the past will always be present in the form of his brother. The past will never be buried for the STB.


:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:
Quoted for truth!!!


----------



## Satya

I wasn't sure about posting this, but I'm going to offer a slightly different angle on a parallel. Just sharing thoughts, there's no secret motive here.

Let's say there's a man currently in his second marriage. In his first marriage, let's say that during it, he was a great provider, bought his first wife clothes and jewelry (which she was happy to accept), had several children with her, encouraged her to be a SAHM, because he thought all these things were expected of him. He was encouraged to perform in the role expected of him. For whatever reason, the marriage wasn't meant to last, and he divorces his wife, pays alimony, child support, etc...

In his second marriage, he feels he's been there and done that as a provider, and decided that he gave it a good effort the first time but realized through his experience that he doesn't want to always provide for his new wife. He'd like her to provide equally, and he also feels that he learned during his first marriage that materiality is a petty quality he can't respect, so he's not going to buy his new wife expensive things. He's going to buy her practical things. He's not going to have more children, because he's already had 3 and can't imagine having to support any more. He let his second wife know all his preferences up front, but what he hadn't told her is what he gave and provided in his first marriage, and that he has 3 kids. 

The point I'm trying to offer is, if his 2nd wife were to find out what he gave in his first marriage, would she not feel slighted? Would she not wonder why he was willing to do those things for his first wife, but not her? 

It's a purely hypothetical situation... Or is it? I think we may have seen something similar posted here before. 

I think that people do change in ways through experience, sometimes because they don't know better when younger or because things are just expected of them. They learn, mature, and grow. With that growth should come wisdom and responsibility for ones choices. 

Anyone identifying as reformed should be honest and own these learning experiences, or risk hurting the health of their second chances. I know this lesson well.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Satya said:


> I wasn't sure about posting this, but I'm going to offer a slightly different angle on a parallel. Just sharing thoughts, there's no secret motive here.
> 
> Let's say there's a man currently in his second marriage. In his first marriage, let's say that during it, he was a great provider, bought his first wife clothes and jewelry (which she was happy to accept), had several children with her, encouraged her to be a SAHM, because he thought all these things were expected of him. He was encouraged to perform in the role expected of him. For whatever reason, the marriage wasn't meant to last, and he divorces his wife, pays alimony, child support, etc...
> 
> In his second marriage, he feels he's been there and done that as a provider, and decided that he gave it a good effort the first time but realized through his experience that he doesn't want to always provide for his new wife. He'd like her to provide equally, and he also feels that he learned during his first marriage that materiality is a petty quality he can't respect, so he's not going to buy his new wife expensive things. He's going to buy her practical things. He's not going to have more children, because he's already had 3 and can't imagine having to support any more. He let his second wife know all his preferences up front, but what he hadn't told her is what he gave and provided in his first marriage, and that he has 3 kids.
> 
> The point I'm trying to offer is, if his 2nd wife were to find out what he gave in his first marriage, would she not feel slighted? Would she not wonder why he was willing to do those things for his first wife, but not her?
> 
> It's a purely hypothetical situation... Or is it? I think we may have seen something similar posted here before.
> 
> I think that people do change in ways through experience, sometimes because they don't know better when younger or because things are just expected of them. They learn, mature, and grow. With that growth should come wisdom and responsibility for ones choices.
> 
> Anyone identifying as reformed should be honest and own these learning experiences, or risk hurting the health of their second chances. I know this lesson well.


I liked this post and agree...if a person gave their previous partners more than you - you can not help but wonder why are they with you. What do you really represent to them? It has nothing to do with entitlement...to "reformed folks" - just be honest and let the chips fall where they may..dont you want to be loved for who you truly are and not some idealized version your partner has?


----------



## drifter777

I'm a firm believer in "what you don't know can't hurt you". For this reason I always tell women to lie, lie, and lie some more when the whats-your-number thing comes up in a relationship. If he actually knows some of your past you can still limit what you tell him because no one knows everything about your sex life. So lie, and make it a big lie so it's more believable. Like the LTR's you've had plus 2 or 3. And the 2 or 3 where guys you thought were relationship material but it ended up not going anywhere. Lie about what you did with these guys too. No 3-ways or gang-bangs, no public or BDSM stuff - just vanilla sex. Like really vanilla. PiV and oral are all he wants to hear about.

Of course all of this is just my opinion but it comes after reading many, many threads like this one. Women can say that this double-standard is not fair and of course they are absolutely correct. It's not fair; like most things in life. Just remember - there's the way things should be and then there's the way things are. Life is easier when you accept this.


----------



## Truthseeker1

drifter777 said:


> I'm a firm believer in "what you don't know can't hurt you". For this reason I always tell women to lie, lie, and lie some more when the whats-your-number thing comes up in a relationship. If he actually knows some of your past you can still limit what you tell him because no one knows everything about your sex life. So lie, and make it a big lie so it's more believable. Like the LTR's you've had plus 2 or 3. And the 2 or 3 where guys you thought were relationship material but it ended up not going anywhere. Lie about what you did with these guys too. No 3-ways or gang-bangs, no public or BDSM stuff - just vanilla sex. Like really vanilla. PiV and oral are all he wants to hear about.
> 
> Of course all of this is just my opinion but it comes after reading many, many threads like this one. Women can say that this double-standard is not fair and of course they are absolutely correct. It's not fair; like most things in life. Just remember - there's the way things should be and then there's the way things are. Life is easier when you accept this.


And if it comes out and he realizes you based a relationship on a big fvcking lie then what? Should he leave?


----------



## Truthseeker1

For all those proponents of lying I agree with this...

*"What you want to keep in mind about lies is that they are, by definition, dishonest. A woman who is keeping things from you or just making things up has hidden motives. Chances are that anything you try to build with a liar will collapse in the end. If you find out a woman has lied to you, try to get her to ‘fess up, and then you can decide whether it’s something you can get past or if it’s time to throw in the towel. "*



Article: Why Women Lie


----------



## Cynthia

This is the main problem:
She hid this information from you. She lied when confronted. 
This means she has not dealt with her past and had a true heart change. If she can't face it, with the man she is supposed to love with all her heart and join her life with, then you will have big trouble down the road. Unless she deals with whatever led her to degrade herself in such a manner, she is a time bomb waiting to go off in the middle of your marriage and probably after you have kids. She is a danger to your future.

Secondarily I don't think you'll ever be able to get over the issue of what she did with your brother and his description of it. You can forgive, but that's always going to be there. It could get worse.

Because of these two reasons, I think you should wish her well, suggest she get therapy to work through this stuff, and let her go.


----------



## italianjob

drifter777 said:


> I'm a firm believer in "what you don't know can't hurt you". For this reason I always tell women to lie, lie, and lie some more when the whats-your-number thing comes up in a relationship. If he actually knows some of your past you can still limit what you tell him because no one knows everything about your sex life.


Mmmm... You're a big fan of Fraud, then...


----------



## italianjob

I don't know if this is real, and I kind of hope it's not. I'm amazed at how many men would consider marry a girl who not only lied,. but was ass ****ed by their brother several times.

You must have a stomach much stronger than mine...


----------



## Truthseeker1

CynthiaDe said:


> This is the main problem:
> She hid this information from you. She lied when confronted.
> This means she has not dealt with her past and had a true heart change. If she can't face it, with the man she is supposed to love with all her heart and join her life with, then you will have big trouble down the road. Unless she deals with whatever led her to degrade herself in such a manner, she is a time bomb waiting to go off in the middle of your marriage and probably after you have kids. She is a danger to your future.
> 
> Secondarily I don't think you'll ever be able to get over the issue of what she did with your brother and his description of it. You can forgive, but that's always going to be there. It could get worse.
> 
> Because of these two reasons, I think you should wish her well, suggest she get therapy to work through this stuff, and let her go.


I do think a substantial amount of people think its understandable if not ok to lie to get the spouse you want...to me its a form of cake eating..I had my fun and now I can lie my way to getting a "safe" spouse...for me I'd NEVER EVER trust a wife again who lied when asked about her past..EVER...


----------



## LadybugMomma

I have to wonder what the hell was going through her mind when she met your family and saw that your brother was one of the guys she had sex with. And I have to wonder if she thought your brother wouldn't rat her out to you. And why, knowing both those things, she STILL chose to lie to you about having had sex with him, along with multiple other guys?


----------



## alexm

marduk said:


> So, a girl could have been with one guy but had sex thousands of times, in every conceivable way. Or two guys, but those two guys were at the same time hundreds of times.
> 
> Or, a girl could have been with 20 guys, each once.
> 
> Which one is 'worse' or 'better?' I dunno.


I know you're not actually asking, but I would much prefer somebody who has been with a few guys hundreds of times than 50 guys once or twice each.

To me, it's never been about the amount of sex one has had, or even really the number of partners, TBH. It's the context.

Give me a woman with 40 partners over 20 years, each an actual relationship over a woman with 10 partners once each.


----------



## Marduk

alexm said:


> I know you're not actually asking, but I would much prefer somebody who has been with a few guys hundreds of times than 50 guys once or twice each.
> 
> To me, it's never been about the amount of sex one has had, or even really the number of partners, TBH. It's the context.
> 
> Give me a woman with 40 partners over 20 years, each an actual relationship over a woman with 10 partners once each.


And I have no issue with that. It's just worth thinking about, right?


----------



## Evinrude58

LadybugMomma said:


> I have to wonder what the hell was going through her mind when she met your family and saw that your brother was one of the guys she had sex with. And I have to wonder if she thought your brother wouldn't rat her out to you. And why, knowing both those things, she STILL chose to lie to you about having had sex with him, along with multiple other guys?


I don't wonder--- it's because she's a liar and has no character. Her default move is to lie. Not a good sign.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

The whole situation is so over the top that people are having trouble believing it. A woman who would have sex with multiple men at a time, basically be used like a sex doll, has deep issues of shame and self-loathing. Getting into a relationship with someone who has not dealt with those issues is ticking time bomb. 
Likely it wouldn't really explode until a child was involved. Who would want that for their child! Or it wouldn't explode, it would just start leaking out toxic sludge until the whole relationship and family were poisoned and wondering what happened.


----------



## Truthseeker1

CynthiaDe said:


> The whole situation is so over the top that people are having trouble believing it. A woman who would have sex with multiple men at a time, basically be used like a sex doll, has deep issues of shame and self-loathing. Getting into a relationship with someone who has not dealt with those issues is ticking time bomb.
> Likely it wouldn't really explode until a child was involved. Who would want that for their child! Or it wouldn't explode, it would just start leaking out toxic sludge until the whole relationship and family were poisoned and wondering what happened.


People with a past like this or similar to it need to be honest to find the right partner who can accept it...many people can't and that is OK...


----------



## TaDor

Truthseeker1 said:


> Not always - a past like that can stick around in the form of an STd or emotional damage..and who wants to deal with that for the rest of their lives?


And yet in some cultures - especially those of strong religious overtones - ALL women are wh**es, treated like slaves - and if she kisses a guy or is raped, its her fault and she gets killed, thrown in prison, beaten or thrown out of the village.

If emotional damage is treated / treatable - that makes a difference too.

With what goes on in the world - many people have emotional damage or they cause it.


----------



## Truthseeker1

TaDor said:


> And yet in some cultures - especially those of strong religious overtones - ALL women are wh**es, treated like slaves - and if she kisses a guy or is raped, its her fault and she gets killed, thrown in prison, beaten or thrown out of the village.
> 
> If emotional damage is treated / treatable - that makes a difference too.
> 
> With what goes on in the world - many people have emotional damage or they cause it.


Sadly you are correct...but my main point is this...honesty is key...people with a past like this should be honest and find a partner who accepts them..its NOT ok to lie to land a spouse they deem good..personally if a woman lied to get me to marry her I'd never trust her again...and once trust is gone the relationship is poisoned..there seems to be a substnatial amount of people who think its ok for a woman to lie to hang on to a good guy...and that is not right..


----------



## Cynthia

Truthseeker1 said:


> People with a past like this or similar to it need to be honest to find the right partner who can accept it...many people can't and that is OK...


Yes, after they deal with what caused them to allow themselves to be abused in such a manner.
We are not talking about what is considered normal today. What she did is extreme unhealthy behavior.


----------



## Truthseeker1

CynthiaDe said:


> Yes, after they deal with what caused them to allow themselves to be abused in such a manner.
> We are not talking about what is considered normal today. What she did is extreme unhealthy behavior.


I can tell you from personal experience most people I know have had a handful of partners and both men and women experience no problems in their relationships because of their past..the folks who are on the extremes of sexual activity always seemed damaged in some way


----------



## italianjob

CynthiaDe said:


> Yes, after they deal with what caused them to allow themselves to be abused in such a manner.
> We are not talking about what is considered normal today. What she did is extreme unhealthy behavior.


Not dealing with it does not give her the right to be dishonest and trick a guy into marrying her.

It is not OP's job to make her deal with it if he chooses not to.

He's not a public institution, he is a person entitled to have his own standards in the choice of a partner.


----------



## alexm

marduk said:


> And I have no issue with that. It's just worth thinking about, right?


I've always said, whenever these threads come up (and they come up a lot around here...) that it's all context. The actual NUMBER doesn't matter - to me, any way. In the case of this thread - no way.

If someone has had many partners, it wouldn't bother me, provided a good % of them were in actual relationships. A few casual things here and there - cool. But when the number of casual partners far outweighs the relationships... meh. No thanks.

It speaks more to the person in regards to their relationship skills than anything, and that'd be my issue.


----------



## larry.gray

marduk said:


> And I have no issue with that. It's just worth thinking about, right?


I don't have to do much thinking. There is no comparison in my mind.


----------



## TaDor

niceguy28 said:


> It has nothing to do with resentment. I'm just stating facts. At the end of the day this comes down to whether he can deal with it or not. People can't expect not to be judged by their past. I'm not saying that people don't deserve second chances but we can't go on and think we can do things and that people are just supposed to forget about it. Are you honestly telling me that you could live with this yourself if you were in his shoes? If you can then you are a better man than me.


I am going by what you posted and the attitude of you, many guys here and elsewhere in general.

*YOU* refer to a womens sexual past as wh* (prostitute) - when they are SL*(sounds like guts). Geez, if a woman has sex with more than 2-3 guys, she's a sl? If a guy has sex with 10 women, he's just a guy?!

Now, you did say anything bad about the OP's brother. Nor did anyone else - or not much. lets look at the brother:
1 - he was sexually kinky with this woman and other women.
2 - he didn't say a word about this to the OP until recently, even thou he has meet her before.
3 - Even the OP is more upset with his bride to be, than @ his brother (of course, he's not in a romantic relationship with his brother either).

IMO, women should have the sexual rights to their bodies as much as men to their own. While people will always have their own standards - I don't think its cool to SL** same a woman. Other than STDS and previous children, criminal record, mental issues - what really is there to be concerned with their past?

Now, I'm not a fan of women who spend their 20s as sl**s and then find a "safe Poindexter guy" when then find jesus, money and pop out some babies.

PS: Side note about the anal or oral sex thing:
women ARE strange that way, maybe she wasn't into it back then - or maybe she's a reborn. And she's mirroring the OP's expectations of a wife-to-be. ie: he wanted to wait, and she wants to respect that. That is his decision & problems more than her's. And if she is respecting *HIS* beliefs about sex - then MORE power to her.

Like anyone else, we can't see into each other's heads.


----------



## michzz

CynthiaDe said:


> The whole situation is so over the top that people are having trouble believing it. A woman who would have sex with multiple men at a time, basically be used like a sex doll, has deep issues of shame and self-loathing. Getting into a relationship with someone who has not dealt with those issues is ticking time bomb.
> Likely it wouldn't really explode until a child was involved. Who would want that for their child! Or it wouldn't explode, it would just start leaking out toxic sludge until the whole relationship and family were poisoned and wondering what happened.


I agree very much. My ex-wife was one of those self-loathihg liars about her disturbing behavior. I think she thought hiding it with me would fix her. it didn't and nearly destroyed me.

Why take a person with you on the disturbing ride, is the question i \Icant answer fully.


----------



## bandit.45

alexm said:


> I've always said, whenever these threads come up (and they come up a lot around here...) that it's all context. The actual NUMBER doesn't matter - to me, any way. In the case of this thread - no way.
> 
> If someone has had many partners, it wouldn't bother me, provided a good % of them were in actual relationships. A few casual things here and there - cool. But when the number of casual partners far outweighs the relationships... meh. No thanks.
> 
> *It speaks more to the person in regards to their relationship skills* than anything, and that'd be my issue.


Agreed. It indicates a great degree of superficiality and shallowness.


----------



## TaDor

bandit.45 said:


> No one is condemning her. She's not a criminal. But her reality is that her past promiscuity is going to mean something to her present partner and future partners. There is no way around it.
> 
> The second things started getting serious between them she should have told him that she had sex with his brother as well as group sex with other men. She should have been honest, but she wasn't. She hid it, and the first time he asked her she obfuscated.
> 
> It is the hiding and deception that is at issue here.


That is hard to say... sorry, but most women DO NOT ask about my sexual past (other than STDs, but I usually bring it up) And in general, many people do NOT want to know. It varies from person to person. 

Depending with the women I have been with, I have different things to tell them:
1 - If they are shy/conservative types: don't ask, don't tell.
2 - If they are a ONS, they get nothing - other than "I'm safe and I'm using a condom".
3 - If we're light dating, I may discuss my likes and kinks. If they ask for my sex #, I will give them an answer. 
4 - If I feel the woman is kinky & honest and wants to compare notes, then I'm an open book.

Out of the 100+ women I've had : About 10 know my very kinky side, but not personal side. Only 5 may know a lot about me and out of those, only two know EVERYTHING.

Women are more touchy about sex. Such as NOT counting BJ's as "sex". Refer to the movie "Clerks". Or after being spit-roasted, the woman will never admit she did it, even if she's "single".


Now, something that came up in couple's therapy with my WW recently is that *SHE* did have a problem with my sex number being 100+, but not at first - when we were just dating and having fun. She never brought it up after all these years and talking about it, is helping to resolve anxiety issues. I was open, so was she when we first meet - but still it bugged her.


----------



## Cynthia

michzz said:


> I agree very much. My ex-wife was one of those self-loathihg liars about her disturbing behavior. I think she thought hiding it with me would fix her. it didn't and nearly destroyed me.
> 
> Why take a person with you on the disturbing ride, is the question i \Icant answer fully.


Oh. That's awful. Exactly what the OP needs to avoid. This stuff really does happen, so even if this thread were just a made up story, it would still be helpful for people to understand what happens when people do not take care of their issues and lie about them. It creates problems in their relationships and will destroy them and their marriages until they face and work through whatever caused them to act out like that in the first place.


----------



## TaDor

MyRevelation said:


> That's because that isn't the fact set of this thread.
> 
> Now if it was the fiance's sister that was the OP and was getting ready to marry the brother, then you would likely see the same responses in reverse. People would be telling the sister she'd never get over her new hubby riding the tilt-a-whirl with her sister.
> 
> It isn't the genders that make this situation unbearable, it's the FACTS.


What difference does it really make? His brother WAS involved and wasn't concerned to talk about it at first. In general - it would have been nice if they BOTH admitted they KNEW each other.. but both of them OMITTED / LIED to the OP about their sexual past.

So, what is her goals for the future?


----------



## TaDor

drifter777 said:


> I'm a firm believer in "what you don't know can't hurt you". For this reason I always tell women to lie, lie, and lie some more when the whats-your-number thing comes up in a relationship. If he actually knows some of your past you can still limit what you tell him because no one knows everything about your sex life. So lie, and make it a big lie so it's more believable. Like the LTR's you've had plus 2 or 3. And the 2 or 3 where guys you thought were relationship material but it ended up not going anywhere. Lie about what you did with these guys too. No 3-ways or gang-bangs, no public or BDSM stuff - just vanilla sex. Like really vanilla. PiV and oral are all he wants to hear about.


As I have posted, there could be any number of reasons to share different levels of information or when. But in general, SO's should not be lying to each other. Men or women.

If your relationship is based off of lies - then its weak and will be DOOMED, period. Or simply just live in the lie.


----------



## Cynthia

TaDor said:


> What difference does it really make? His brother WAS involved and wasn't concerned to talk about it at first. In general - it would have been nice if they BOTH admitted they KNEW each other.. but both of them OMITTED / LIED to the OP about their sexual past.


His brother is obviously a jerk as well. He can't call off his brother being born, but he can call off the wedding.


----------



## bandit.45

I think the brother was staying silent because, given he knew of her promiscuous past, he figured the relationship would last a month or two, and she would break up with OP and move on. He figured as long as she didn't say anything, he wouldn't either and no one would be the wiser. 

But then when Arnold announced to the family he was getting engaged to her, then the younger brother thought _"Wait. Oh sh!t. I wasn't expecting it to go this far. Do I say something? Oh man.... he's got to know. Someone has to tell him..."_


----------



## Cynthia

bandit.45 said:


> I think the brother was staying silent because, given he knew of her promiscuous past, he figured the relationship would last a month or two, and she would break up with OP and move on. He figured as long as she didn't say anything, he wouldn't either and no one would be the wiser.
> 
> But then when Arnold announced to the family he was getting engaged to her, then the younger brother thought _"Wait. Oh sh!t. I wasn't expecting it to go this far. Do I say something? Oh man.... he's got to know. Someone has to tell him..."_


That could be, but he still participated in group sex with one women being the receptacle. That's just disgusting. I cannot imagine ever having a relationship with a man that would do something like that.


----------



## bandit.45

CynthiaDe said:


> That could be, but he still participated in group sex with one women being the receptacle. That's just disgusting. I cannot imagine ever having a relationship with a man that would do something like that.


Meh...everyone has their kink. 

To me, two or more men doing one woman is gay. I don't want to be naked with my junk hanging out just a few feet away from a guy with his junk hanging out. 

Now me and two women?

I'll get back to you on that...


----------



## Truthseeker1

bandit.45 said:


> *Now me and two women?
> 
> I'll get back to you on that...*


You and a billion other guys lol


----------



## drifter777

italianjob said:


> Mmmm... You're a big fan of Fraud, then...


Huh?



Truthseeker1 said:


> And if it comes out and he realizes you based a relationship on a big fvcking lie then what? Should he leave?


Women nearly always have "plausible deniability" when it comes to who they had sex with and/or what they did. The scenario in this thread would be a very rare occurrence. If somehow the "truth" came out and was verified or she admitted to it then yeah, maybe some guys would divorce her. But it's nearly impossible to bust her as long as she sticks to her story.


----------



## drifter777

TaDor said:


> As I have posted, there could be any number of reasons to share different levels of information or when. But in general, SO's should not be lying to each other. Men or women.
> 
> If your relationship is based off of lies - then its weak and will be DOOMED, period. Or simply just live in the lie.


I firmly believe that nearly every woman lies about her number one way or another. Like she doesn't count the guys when it was "only" oral. And/or she doesn't include the ONS's because well - she didn't know their name and never saw them again. So the number she tells you is true to her because she only counts the ones that fit her parameters.

Or maybe not about the quantity but she'll minimize (lie) about what she did and leave out the group stuff. 

So I would bet that most married couples you know lied about their sexual past and that fact has nothing to do with the quality of their relationship. I completely reject the notion that a relationship "built on a lie" is doomed. People lie all the time about nearly everything.


----------



## Truthseeker1

drifter777 said:


> Huh?
> 
> 
> Women nearly always have "plausible deniability" when it comes to who they had sex with and/or what they did. The scenario in this thread would be a very rare occurrence. If somehow the "truth" came out and was verified or she admitted to it then yeah, maybe some guys would divorce her. But it's nearly impossible to bust her as long as she sticks to her story.


If any person can start a marriage with a huge lie and stick to it..there is something worng wit their character and it will often show in other ways...


----------



## drifter777

bandit.45 said:


> I think the brother was staying silent because, given he knew of her promiscuous past, he figured the relationship would last a month or two, and she would break up with OP and move on. He figured as long as she didn't say anything, he wouldn't either and no one would be the wiser.
> 
> But then when Arnold announced to the family he was getting engaged to her, then the younger brother thought _"Wait. Oh sh!t. I wasn't expecting it to go this far. Do I say something? Oh man.... he's got to know. Someone has to tell him..."_


No. According to this story Arnold proposed to her and she accepted and THEN he brought her home to meet the family. Brother told him immediately and Arnold verified the story with other friends who "knew" her in the biblical sense.


----------



## drifter777

Truthseeker1 said:


> If any person can start a marriage with a huge lie and stick to it..there is something worng wit their character and it will often show in other ways...


Wow - this seems extremely naive to me but, hey, you are entitled to your opinion.


----------



## Truthseeker1

drifter777 said:


> I firmly believe that nearly every woman lies about her number one way or another. Like she doesn't count the guys when it was "only" oral. And/or she doesn't include the ONS's because well - she didn't know their name and never saw them again. So the number she tells you is true to her because she only counts the ones that fit her parameters.
> 
> Or maybe not about the quantity but she'll minimize (lie) about what she did and leave out the group stuff.
> 
> So I would bet that most married couples you know lied about their sexual past and that fact has nothing to do with the quality of their relationship. I completely reject the notion that a relationship "built on a lie" is doomed. People lie all the time about nearly everything.


Base on this why the fvck would anyone get married? Either men or women? Who the fvck wants to be married ot a person who lies and schemes to get what they want?


----------



## Truthseeker1

drifter777 said:


> Wow - this seems extremely naive to me but, hey, you are entitled to your opinion.


So its naive to hope I'm not married to a liar? or that a person who tells lies like this might not be the best spouse....ok then im naive


----------



## TaDor

italianjob said:


> I don't know if this is real, and I kind of hope it's not. I'm amazed at how many men would consider marry a girl who not only lied,. but was ass ****ed by their brother several times.


These things **do** happen. Needless to say, his brother can claim "first" for every hole. For some, its a problem - for grown ups, its like - whatever.

Why? Everything that happened in the past, leads you to meet the person of today. Hell, one of my exGF, she meet and dated a guy from online and 800 miles away. 2 years later, he's dating another girl from a different state and it turns out to be her cousin! The chances are astronomical! Same EX, we ran into her JrHigh Crush from 800+ miles away in which he was dating a gay friend of mine, we all ran into each other at a club and it was like "Do I know you from 10 years ago?! OMG OMG!"



LadybugMomma said:


> I have to wonder what the hell was going through her mind when she met your family and saw that your brother was one of the guys she had sex with.~


She might not have remembered him - it might have been years of drunken & stoned sexual adventures.

Out of all those I had sex with, I can only remember a few dozen what they looked like. Either cause I have photos or I know them today as friends. Sometimes I get a woman who comes up to me and says "hi... uh, you don't remember me?" and I honestly don't. Its been years lady, I've been drunk and slept many times since then. Happened this past memorial party.



Evinrude58 said:


> I don't wonder--- it's because she's a liar and has no character. Her default move is to lie. Not a good sign.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It could also be actual shame of her past... that she has out-grown and wish she didn't do and doesn't want to bring up - for fear of losing a GOOD GUY that she wants to have a clean slate life with. So the question for arnold81 (the OP) - is this "If you knew her past, completely as you do today - since early dating, would you be with her or want to marry her still?"

There are a few times I wish I didn't *GO THERE*, but I usually laugh it off. There are women I've dated and liked quite a bit, that have different opinions / actions or looks that I kept to myself and just filed under "long term relationship is NOT going to work" - that I don't share with them.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

TaDor said:


> These things **do** happen. Needless to say, his brother can claim "first" for every hole. For some, its a problem - for grown ups, its like - whatever.


The irony. No, a grown up can say "I don't want to share with my brother." Yes, even if it is in the past.


----------



## TaDor

CynthiaDe said:


> The whole situation is so over the top that people are having trouble believing it. A woman who would have sex with multiple men at a time, basically be used like a sex doll, has deep issues of shame and self-loathing.
> 
> Getting into a relationship with someone who has not dealt with those issues is ticking time bomb.


I don't see anything about this story as "unbelievable". Recently at a dance/drinking club which allows some BDSM play (not nudity or sex) in which 75% of the patrons are NOT into BDSM... there was a cute young woman of 20, tied and suspended to a post. Very cute, fit and sexy. She posed for the photos, even thou she could not actually move her body. She is an adult and is doing extreme things. Could she be damaged or sexually open minded? I don't know as I've only talked to her for a minute or so. But she's having fun and is hanging around a safe "dom" type of guy. She seemed to know what she's doing.

I've also ran into a 19yr old preachers daughter with major "daddy issues", who was VERY much damaged - didn't take long to figure that out. She was heavy into drugs and drinking. She told me about waking up with in an apartment - naked, with 4 other naked guys and obvious sex. She was boasting it, but I knew she was messed up. 2nd time I saw her, she seemed to be "property" of someone I didn't know, but likely was treated like dirt - but liked what she was doing. A cutter type, who need to feel pain to feel "alive".

10 years ago, I dated a 20yr old, very BDSM experienced and trained - before I knew anything of the life-style. She had some issues of bi-polar. She did sex with multiple partners of both sexes, bondage, orgies, etc. Today she's 30, married with a child to a stable guy who treats her right. I did try to show her "the way" of healthy relationships, but she needed to find her own way. She and her stable guy have their kinks, he knows her past. BTW, I'm in no way sexually interested in her.



alexm said:


> I've always said, whenever these threads come up (and they come up a lot around here...) that it's all context. The actual NUMBER doesn't matter - to me, any way. In the case of this thread - no way.
> 
> If someone has had many partners, it wouldn't bother me, provided a good % of them were in actual relationships. A few casual things here and there - cool. But when the number of casual partners far outweighs the relationships... meh. No thanks.


To me, it should be better to have someone with MORE experience in knowing WHAT they want in a partner. Its why I have NO interests in deflowering a virgin. As a person gets older, the virgin thing becomes more of an issue. A person who only had sexual relationship with 3 people doesn't know much about variety or personality as compared to someone who had sex with 15.

I've been with women in which I was their #3 to have sex with (ages 30~40), and it was noticeable that they were naive... had spent years in bad or loveless or lame relationships.


----------



## bandit.45

drifter777 said:


> No. According to this story Arnold proposed to her and she accepted and THEN he brought her home to meet the family. Brother told him immediately and Arnold verified the story with other friends who "knew" her in the biblical sense.


Thank you for the correction.


----------



## TaDor

bandit.45 said:


> Meh...everyone has their kink.
> 
> To me, two or more men doing one woman is gay. I don't want to be naked with my junk hanging out just a few feet away from a guy with his junk hanging out.
> 
> Now me and two women?
> 
> I'll get back to you on that...


OF COURSE we prefer to have two women at the same time. Its quite fun... I never got enough of that. You can take a break and watch the show... 

The 2 guys and a single woman is gay thing... uh, its not gay. I mean, have you ever used a gym shower? Doesn't make you gay?
Or how about watch porn... WE ALL WATCH PORN, does this mean you close you eyes every-time you see a penis? The money shot is important in the biz, but it doesn't make a guy gay.

two guys spit-roasting a woman = not gay.
two guys spit-roasting a woman while kissing each other = likely bisexual.
Guy in a Guy in a woman = bisexual or at least one of the guys is gay.

Gay men are not interested in women parts.


----------



## Bibi1031

Of course you should dump her deceitful arse!

When she met your family and saw your brother, she should of immediately come clean and she needed to have told you that back in college she slept with your brother. Instead she buried her head in the sand. She continued to deny when you asked her because your brother cared enough about you to know that she would not tell you.


As bad as this sounds it fits here: Bros before hoes dude!

She is not worth it. Not because of her past, but because of her deceit!

Your instinct was spot on with: "I dodged a bullet." You were very lucky indeed.


----------



## larry.gray

TaDor said:


> The 2 guys and a single woman is gay thing... uh, its not gay.


I beg to differ, and many other men do too.



TaDor said:


> I mean, have you ever used a gym shower?


Yep. At no point have I ever sported a boner in the shower. I just take care of my business and leave, not get all excited.



TaDor said:


> Doesn't make you gay?


If I poped a woodie and got all excited when naked men were around instead of just cleaning myself and / or changing my clothes while minding my own business it would.




TaDor said:


> Or how about watch porn... WE ALL WATCH PORN, does this mean you close you eyes every-time you see a penis?


Hetro porn doesn't get me excited. I prefer lesbian or solo porn, that stuff is much better.



TaDor said:


> The money shot is important in the biz, but it doesn't make a guy gay.


The fixation on money shots seems gay. Why would I want to see that?


----------



## TaDor

Many men, but not most. Not straight men who are secure with their sexuality. 
Sporting a boner while sharing a woman or wife-swapping while another man is in the room doesn't make you gay. Where is the logic in that?
Lets say you are having sex with babe, and if you looked to your right, there was a 400lb woman, who has very hair legs. Does that mean you want to have sex with that other woman?

I've been to parties and events like Burning Man in which I've had conversations with women who are NAKED and I am naked and I don't have an erection. You can go to nude beaches in Europe in which nudity and sex are two different things.



> "If I poped a woodie and got all excited when naked men were around instead of just cleaning myself and / or changing my clothes while minding my own business it would."


Why? What if you were thinking of two hot super models doing a 69? Okay, when you are at work and thinking of a woman sexually - you are not naked or even in the same area, yet you feel sexual.
A gay man isn't hetro because he's not having sex with a man at the moment. He's gay because that is what he's sexually attracted to, period. If being in proximity of your erection dictated your sexuality - you're in trouble. What if you were watching porn, have a boner and the house cat walks in the room? Will that cat be in danger of being in a sex act? Or also with your logic, the act of your own masturbation would be homosexual - don't you think?



> "The fixation on money shots seems gay. Why would I want to see that?"


Sure, that is you, but numbers in the porn industry dictates that men get turned ON watching a woman get ejaculated onto or in their bodies. The "money shot" is in most M/F porn and even F/F porn marketed to women. Most women are not interested in watching porn, they prefer to read it in romance novels or "50 shades of gray". Lesbian porn and Girl on Girl porn is different. Ask Ron Jeremy, he's still making porn for some reason.

Sorry, but I've been in 3somes and no desire to have sex with other men or visa-versa. I've seen 3somes too, the guys are very much NOT gay.


----------



## arnold81

We finally got a chance to discuss everything earlier today. I told her that it's not the multiple partners that I'm concerned about. It's the fact that she lied about it and that one of the men was my brother. I told her that maybe we don't know each other like we think we do and we should postpone the wedding until further notice. She flipped out on me and said that it's not fair that she is being judged for things that happened years ago before she even met me. She said that at that time in her life, she was lost and trying to fit in. She said that it was a dark time in her life that she wants to forget. She thinks my brother is a good man for telling me the truth but she says that she has no feelings for him and it was only sex before. 

I'm really confused and I don't know what to do. She's right in a sense. It's not fair for me to judge her for things that happened before me. Besides this episode, I can't think of a single thing in her character that makes me not want to be with her. I truly love her and feel she is the woman of my dreams. As far as the lying, she said she wanted to tell me that she was with him before but didn't because she knew it would hurt me. In a way, I understand because I know how guilty she must have felt when she saw him at the house. I don't even know if I can fault her for that because she is not perfect. So for now, she is coming out this weekend and we will discuss face to face about the wedding. I was almost sure to cancel but now I'm feeling a bit guilty about it.


----------



## arnold81

LadybugMomma said:


> I have to wonder what the hell was going through her mind when she met your family and saw that your brother was one of the guys she had sex with. And I have to wonder if she thought your brother wouldn't rat her out to you. And why, knowing both those things, she STILL chose to lie to you about having had sex with him, along with multiple other guys?


I asked her this very question and she said that she didn't even remember sleeping with him until later on during the weekend. She said that she felt ashamed and scared but didn't want to tell me since she didn't want to hurt me.


----------



## Bibi1031

Your feeling guilty because of what?

It's your life, but not many people get to dodge a bullet like you did.


----------



## arnold81

Bibi1031 said:


> Your feeling guilty because of what?
> 
> It's your life, but not many people get to dodge a bullet like you did.


I'm feeling guilty because I'm judging her over her past. I'm not a perfect man and I've done some things that I'm ashamed of so it doesn't seem fair that I'm judging her for her past. As far as dodging the bullet, I think I've made up my mind about not only postponing the wedding, but just dumping her all together. We'll discuss that when she gets here but I just feel like I don't know her as much as I thought I did. Over this past 2 years, I thought we knew everything about each other and then I've literally been hit with a brick wall. There could be other secrets that could come out soon. Reading over this forum, it's a bit painful to see what people are going through over cheating. I already can't get the thoughts out of my head about her and my brother so I know I would really be crushed if she cheated on me while we are married. I know my family will always be behind me but I can hear my brother saying that he told me so. It just seems like the logical thing to do right now is to just walk away and start new. It hurts but I sure it will hurt much more if we are married and something happens 5 years from now. Maybe we can stay friends and if I can get over these thoughts, we can try again. Right now, I can't even think of her without thinking of these other men.


----------



## Bibi1031

You wasted 2 years with this woman and you two were not intimate?

Why would she make you wait this long?


----------



## italianjob

TaDor said:


> These things **do** happen. Needless to say, his brother can claim "first" for every hole. For some, its a problem - for grown ups, its like - whatever.


Huh... Ah, well, the news here, man, is that being alright with sharing women with your siblings doesn't make you a more "grownup" person or a better man than anyone else. What it does it makes you an "Anything goes" kind of guy.

Good for you if you're happy with that, I'll pass on that one...


----------



## italianjob

OP, I'm a bit confused, reading your latest post, about what you're going to do, after reading the first one I tought you were going to stay with her, reading the last one it looks like it's over.

Anyway, don't let her shame you into doing something you're not sure you want to do.
You're not hiring a secretary, so you don't need to apply "fair opportunities" here, you're choosing a woman to be your partner, possibly for life, so you (like her, on the other hand) have every right to apply whatever parameter you see fit.

There is nothing to feel guilty about...


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Sorry I couldn't read this whole thread - just the first few posts.

She lied to you, led you on, fvcked random dudes and you haven't had sex with her and she didn't respect you enough to share her past or reasons for her born again virginity,

That's poor character and I wouldnt be able to move past that.

You have every right to judge her and her past. You'd be foolish to ignore it. Why the guilt over making a character judgement? That's crazy. It's perfectly acceptable to slvt shame someone whose been a slvt and won't come clean. This isn't a make /female thing - I know guys who are / were slvts too so the double standard accusations are unwarranted and untrue.

If you had a wild past my thoughts would be different but you don't. Others who are not in your shoes wouldn't fully understand. This will hang over your relationship and I suspect resentment will build.

If you think you love her - or at least the person you thought she was - then it's ok to wait and get to know the real person she is. I strongly urge you to stop the relationship or start a sexual relationship with her - but don't stay in it unless it's sexual in nature. You need to see if you're sexually comparable and I wouldn't accept vanilla sex - it only means she's withholding from you what she freely gave to others. That's disrespectful in my book.

If you find you are sexually comparable, and she rebuilds trust by starting to talk honestly, Maybe you can build a new relationship based on the truth.

Her guilting you is a huge red flag and shows entitlement IMO. Get in an equal footing, get to know each other, and see if you even like the real person. Your past relationship is based on lies so kill that off and start over if you want a future with her.

Personally I wouldn't want to be the town joke but that's up to you.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I can't imagine how this couldn't come up over the past 2 years. It's mind boggling unless she just wanted a ring. Are you super religious or judgmental - to the point where she couldn't put her past on the table? 

You have to know what you're accepting to accept it. If the story was "I've been with someone I really love for two years, but I'm troubled by her past, which she shared with me..." then we'd be talking about something different here, and coming to terms with your partners past. But that's not the story here,

Ugh this is pretty awful - sorry.


----------



## MEM2020

Arnold,

Why are you afraid to answer my questions?

History fades
Compatibility rules





arnold81 said:


> We finally got a chance to discuss everything earlier today. I told her that it's not the multiple partners that I'm concerned about. It's the fact that she lied about it and that one of the men was my brother. I told her that maybe we don't know each other like we think we do and we should postpone the wedding until further notice. She flipped out on me and said that it's not fair that she is being judged for things that happened years ago before she even met me. She said that at that time in her life, she was lost and trying to fit in. She said that it was a dark time in her life that she wants to forget. She thinks my brother is a good man for telling me the truth but she says that she has no feelings for him and it was only sex before.
> 
> I'm really confused and I don't know what to do. She's right in a sense. It's not fair for me to judge her for things that happened before me. Besides this episode, I can't think of a single thing in her character that makes me not want to be with her. I truly love her and feel she is the woman of my dreams. As far as the lying, she said she wanted to tell me that she was with him before but didn't because she knew it would hurt me. In a way, I understand because I know how guilty she must have felt when she saw him at the house. I don't even know if I can fault her for that because she is not perfect. So for now, she is coming out this weekend and we will discuss face to face about the wedding. I was almost sure to cancel but now I'm feeling a bit guilty about it.


----------



## Bibi1031

TheTruthHurts said:


> I can't imagine how this couldn't come up over the past 2 years.
> 
> You have to know what you're accepting to accept it. If the story was "I've been with someone I really love for two years, but I'm troubled by her past, which she shared with me..." then we'd be talking about something different here, and coming to terms with your partners past. But that's not the story here,
> 
> Ugh this is pretty awful - sorry.


Sorry OP but you have been played in the cruelest way. What would have happened if your bother wouldn't of had a piece of that pie? 

You would be the laughing stock of your town. Be grateful your brother got you out of this mess. I know you love her, but she doesn't love you. She is a player. 

Count your blessings and move on and leave the player to make a fool of someone else.


----------



## arnold81

MEM11363 said:


> Arnold,
> 
> Why are you afraid to answer my questions?
> 
> History fades
> Compatibility rules


I mentioned it earlier about my virginity but in short, there is no handicap or religious belief that is preventing me from having sex. It's just something that I've decided not to do until I've found the right person. As for her, yes, we are sexually attracted to each other. People that see her picture would describe her as hot. We have kissed and groped but it has never progressed any further than that. She says that I'm the first man that really loved her for her character and didn't just try to use her to get in her pants. I never felt like I am in a rush to sleep with her because I feel that if she is the right one, we have the rest of our lives to share that part of the relationship.


----------



## arnold81

italianjob said:


> OP, I'm a bit confused, reading your latest post, about what you're going to do, after reading the first one I tought you were going to stay with her, reading the last one it looks like it's over.
> 
> Anyway, don't let her shame you into doing something you're not sure you want to do.
> You're not hiring a secretary, so you don't need to apply "fair opportunities" here, you're choosing a woman to be your partner, possibly for life, so you (like her, on the other hand) have every right to apply whatever parameter you see fit.
> 
> There is nothing to feel guilty about...



I won't lie. I love her. I love her a lot. At the same time, I just have a feeling that this won't work out. Like somehow this whole thing will come back to bite me in the arse if I marry her. Outside of this problem, she is perfect. I couldn't ask for a woman with a better character. We will discuss things when she comes but I'm leaning more towards just calling off the relationship and moving on with my life. I can deal with being the laughing stock back home but having my brother in the mix is just too much for me.


----------



## Satya

You are NOT judging her character, or her past. You are judging her LACK OF HONESTY. She is being defensive and focusing on the one thing you said you were actually NOT doing in your confrontation to her. 

Have you read anything that posters with varying views have written here? 

If you want to postpone the wedding, postpone it. Get to know her more if that's what your focus will be. If you're going to save yourself for the right woman, make SURE it's going to be her. 

Ignore your gut at your own peril.


----------



## Truthseeker1

And even if you couldn't accept her past - that is ok too...we all have our own standards for what we want in a spouse...

I've read articles and threads like this numerous times and it mainly involves men not being able to accept their woman's past - what p!sses me off is they are told to suck it up - there are women who lie about being virgins on their wedding night and then when caught her husband is not supposed to be upset? How can you ever trust what they say again? But the comments I have read show me a lot of people really think it is ok on some level to be deceitful...and they attack the character of the guy who was lied to!!! Unreal...


----------



## aine

I understand where many are coming from re disclosure, but to be honest how many of you on here making those same comments had a full disclosure session with your SO? 
Further, if the OP had been a woman making the same comments about her soon to be H, would the responses have been different? I would like to think not, but believe the standard would have been different and the person would have been told, that is history and therefore not an issue.

For example she has been referred to as a "slvt" but the men she has slept with are referred to as 'jocks!' Really, to my mind they are male who... including the brother, who engages in that kind of sh.. 

She even said men were using her (yes she allowed herself to be used, her bad) and those men are despicable for doing so
In other words double standards going on here, its latent but it is there!


----------



## Truthseeker1

aine said:


> I understand where many are coming from re disclosure, but to be honest how many of you on here making those same comments had a full disclosure session with your SO?
> Further, if the OP had been a woman making the same comments about her soon to be H, would the responses have been different? I would like to think not, but believe the standard would have been different and the person would have been told, that is history and therefore not an issue.


If I had a female friend whose fiance lied to her or whose past she was unsure of my advice to her would be the same..in fact I do have a very close female friend who is doing OLD and sometimes we go through her "options" together and I always advise her and she agrees to avoid the players..I tell the women in my life you are not a play thing - you deserve a guy who deserves you..period...in fact I might be MORE protective of them...


----------



## GusPolinski

This thread makes me sad.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

GusPolinski said:


> This thread makes me sad.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Given how fvcked up and ugly the culture can be...circumstances like this are not surprising...what we do in our past can effect our present whether we like it or not...she made her choices and the OP has a right ot make his..we all get judged Gus...in one way or another...unless she was assaulted she made her choices and now has to live with the consequences...


----------



## GusPolinski

Truthseeker1 said:


> Given how fvcked up and ugly the culture can be...circumstances like this are not surprising...what we do in our past can effect our present whether we like it or not...she made her choices and the OP has a right ot make his..we all get judged Gus...in one way or another...unless she was assaulted she made her choices and now has to live with the consequences...


I'll let you choose between a couple of responses...

Hey, thanks for the education, because I hadn't considered any of that.

or

Blah blah blah blah blah
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

GusPolinski said:


> I'll let you choose between a couple of responses...
> 
> Hey, thanks for the education, because I hadn't considered any of that.
> 
> or
> 
> Blah blah blah blah blah
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And you know what you can do with both responses...


----------



## GusPolinski

TaDor said:


> Sounds like you resent that its easier for women to get sex. Also keep in mind, that women get hit-on, insulted, treated like sex objects for a large part of their lives.
> 
> I also notice that you don't seem to have an issue with the OP' brother? I mean, after-all, the brother had NO problems doing threesomes with other people either, but I'm not seeing you or many people shooting insults at him.
> 
> Now, if she has "reformed" and didn't want to hurt the OP about her sexual past - it is somewhat understandable. Look at what re-born Christians are like. Its a double edge sword. As we see, there is a spectrum on how different guys handle the situation differently.
> 
> 
> I also don't believe in NO-SEX before marriage. Sexual compatibility is important. There is a lot more to sex than simply "sticking in IN and OUT of her". As someone whose been with over 100 women, I've been with women who were NOT good at sex, and I've heard of much worse from friends. Only a handful were worth anything more than a few months of my time.


Damn dude.

You're kind of a ho.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Truthseeker1 said:


> And you know what you can do with both responses...


Offer them up again?

Okay!



GusPolinski said:


> I'll let you choose between a couple of responses...
> 
> Hey, thanks for the education, because I hadn't considered any of that.
> 
> or
> 
> Blah blah blah blah blah



_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alexm

arnold81 said:


> She says that I'm the first man that really loved her for her character and didn't just try to use her to get in her pants. I never felt like I am in a rush to sleep with her because I feel that if she is the right one, we have the rest of our lives to share that part of the relationship.


And this is where you're headed for a load of trouble later on.

The potential sex life is already going to start with a couple of things off the table, oral sex (so, so basic) being one. So before you've even slept with each other, there are already rules or limits in place. She's already established that she wants a rather plain vanilla sex life going forward. She probably also figures that because you have little/no experience, it won't matter, and you won't miss it.

You already have mental images of her, doing rather wild things with other people, including your brother (eww.) Once you get over the initial excitement of losing your virginity, and you become experienced, that alone will cause resentment, and the thoughts of "why not me?" will enter your head, I promise you.

Furthermore, I would be leery of anyone who establishes rules prior to even engaging in sex, period. I don't believe one should ever decide beforehand what's going to happen or not happen, or otherwise how it's going to be. Sex should just happen.


----------



## Truthseeker1

alexm said:


> And this is where you're headed for a load of trouble later on.
> 
> The potential sex life is already going to start with a couple of things off the table, oral sex (so, so basic) being one. So before you've even slept with each other, there are already rules or limits in place. She's already established that she wants a rather plain vanilla sex life going forward. She probably also figures that because you have little/no experience, it won't matter, and you won't miss it.
> 
> You already have mental images of her, doing rather wild things with other people, including your brother (eww.) Once you get over the initial excitement of losing your virginity, and you become experienced, that alone will cause resentment, and the thoughts of "why not me?" will enter your head, I promise you.
> 
> Furthermore, I would be leery of anyone who establishes rules prior to even engaging in sex, period. I don't believe one should ever decide beforehand what's going to happen or not happen, or otherwise how it's going to be. Sex should just happen.


No husband or wife wants to feel their spouse gave their best to previous partners...and in cases like this a "reformed" party girl who has had her fun and now wants to be vanilla..well go find a former party boy who wants the same thing..you are right resentment will set in...I dont know how you stay with someone like this long term...why even get married? just have fun and focus on career...


----------



## foolscotton3

Sports Fan said:


> Look everybody has a past and its how she treats you that matters.
> 
> She could have very well have grown up a lot since then.
> 
> My own sister in law was a real slu...t back in the day. Slept with anyone that would have approached her.
> 
> Now she is a respectful loving housewife.
> 
> Its your call but if she has given you no reason to mistrust her and she treats you right be the bigger man here.


If you and your buds turned her into a split roast would you feel differently about your SIL?

Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


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## syhoybenden

Truthseeker1 said:


> a "reformed" party girl who has had her fun and now wants to be vanilla..well go find a former party boy who wants the same thing.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Truthseeker1

syhoybenden said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:


A guy who has waited or has not been promiscuous - is expected to suck it up when being lied to or when perceiving his lady gave her best to other partners? I dont think so and the same goes for a woman who feels her man gave his best to his previous partners...but what is annoying is the guy is supposed to be ok wiht being lied to and stay? Why?


----------



## Truthseeker1

foolscotton3 said:


> If you and your buds turned her into a split roast would you feel differently about your SIL?
> 
> Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


Being the bigger man and taking less than you deserve...see how that works?


----------



## TX-SC

If she has had that much sex, then she should be aware of how important sexual compatibility is. For her to now say she won't do it until marriage, I'm just seeing a disaster unfolding here.


----------



## Bibi1031

TX-SC said:


> I'm just seeing a disaster unfolding here.


Me too, of taboo and incest proportions 

Different "strokes" for the different family folks >


----------



## badmemory

arnold81 said:


> She said that she felt ashamed and scared but didn't want to tell me since *she didn't want to hurt me*.


Arnold,

That's the oldest BS excuse in the book - used by cheating spouses and those hiding the truth.

More likely, she figured that you'd have the reaction you're having now if she told you, and took the chance that your brother wouldn't spill the beans. 

At least if she had told you herself, you could factor in her honesty and transparency.


----------



## WonkyNinja

arnold81 said:


> I won't lie. I love her. I love her a lot. At the same time, I just have a feeling that this won't work out. Like somehow this whole thing will come back to bite me in the arse if I marry her. Outside of this problem, she is perfect. I couldn't ask for a woman with a better character. We will discuss things when she comes but I'm leaning more towards just calling off the relationship and moving on with my life. I can deal with being the laughing stock back home but having my brother in the mix is just too much for me.


Well then, you have your answer.

So why bother with postponing the wedding? Your reasons aren't going to change.


----------



## Bibi1031

arnold81 said:


> she is perfect. I couldn't ask for a woman with a better character.


:slap::slap::slap:


----------



## MyRevelation

arnold81 said:


> It's not fair for me to judge her for things that happened before me.


I'm going to completely disagree with you here. Dating that turns exclusive is really just a test drive for M. You learn about each others likes, dislikes, family, and background (which includes their past) to make an informed decision whether this person is really M material. Personally, I can think of dozens of things that a potential mate could have done prior to me knowing her that would be stone cold deal breakers. We each would have our own lists of those deal breakers, but I can tell you that what you are facing would be solidly on that list.

There are just some things in life, that once you have that information, you can never UNKNOW it!!! 

Choices have consequences ... your fiance can never unscrew your brother and the other 3some partner ... and you can never UNKNOW that she did.

It is definitely a sucky fact set, but it is now your reality to deal with and hopefully put in the rear view mirror as you move forward.


----------



## michzz

arnold81 said:


> We finally got a chance to discuss everything earlier today. I told her that it's not the multiple partners that I'm concerned about. It's the fact that she lied about it and that one of the men was my brother. I told her that maybe we don't know each other like we think we do and we should postpone the wedding until further notice. She flipped out on me and said that it's not fair that she is being judged for things that happened years ago before she even met me. She said that at that time in her life, she was lost and trying to fit in. She said that it was a dark time in her life that she wants to forget. She thinks my brother is a good man for telling me the truth but she says that she has no feelings for him and it was only sex before.
> 
> I'm really confused and I don't know what to do. She's right in a sense. It's not fair for me to judge her for things that happened before me. Besides this episode, I can't think of a single thing in her character that makes me not want to be with her. I truly love her and feel she is the woman of my dreams. As far as the lying, she said she wanted to tell me that she was with him before but didn't because she knew it would hurt me. In a way, I understand because I know how guilty she must have felt when she saw him at the house. I don't even know if I can fault her for that because she is not perfect. So for now, she is coming out this weekend and we will discuss face to face about the wedding. I was almost sure to cancel but now I'm feeling a bit guilty about it.


facepalm!

Use your head man!

You'veen given excellent advice here about what you face. You even feel it in your bones.

But you are going to to what you're going to do, right?

Good luck.


----------



## Capster

Just bang her this weekend. Trust me - it'll be just as special as if you'd waited until your wedding night.


----------



## MyRevelation

Capster said:


> Just bang her this weekend. Trust me - it'll be just as special as if you'd waited until your wedding night.


I'm guessing you intended this in jest, but OP should be aware that many women will play the sex card to hoover a guy back into a relationship (especially a guy like OP, who is vulnerable to such a tactic) and some even get pregnant on purpose to anchor them.

Just BE AWARE ... Arnold!!! Never forget or discount just which one of you has the advantage of experience in this department.


----------



## Capster

MyRevelation said:


> I'm guessing you intended this in jest, but OP should be aware that many women will play the sex card to hoover a guy back into a relationship (especially a guy like OP, who is vulnerable to such a tactic) and some even get pregnant on purpose to anchor them.
> 
> Just BE AWARE ... Arnold!!! Never forget or discount just which one of you has the advantage of experience in this department.


But by NOT having sex, she holds the same sex card. Let's face it - the desire to have sex can take control in a man and cloud his judgment.

I waited until I was married before having sex and I've always regretted it.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I fully understand your feelings about sex, but be aware we have all been where you are sexually. It's a big huge deal until you do it then the mystery is gone and you will more clearly see where sex fits into your relationship. To say you've built it up WAY WAY more than it warrants is an understatement of monumental proportions.

Again - I completely get it - my W and I were both college age virgins when we met.

The problem (one of many) is your power relationship is WAY off and you are being led along. You can't really see this completely.

That's why I honestly believe you should consumate your relationship if you intend to take it further. You will need to understand what you like and what she likes and make sure she is willing to meet your sexual needs. I HAVE SERIOUS DOUBTS ABOUT THIS - I think she is using sex as a weapon or bargaining chip which is HOERIBLE (but unfortunately common) in a relationship.

After you have sex you can ask all the hard questions - and I strongly urge you to do so. What specifically did she like sexually that she doesn't like now and why? I suspect she will associate sex acts with certain bad choices and won't want to be reminded of them. You MUST NOT accept this because it puts SOMEONE ELSE in your bedroom forever. SHE must work through this with honesty with you and with counseling so YOU TWO are the only ones involved in your sex life. You two should have NO sexual constrains - if she never really liked anal but did it - personally I would expect to watch a video by the Sinclair institute with her on Anal sex among loving couples and EXPLORE it with you. You deserve a chance to try everything she's tried and do it as a couple that cares about each other. It'll be a completely different experience cr for her I guarantee.

BTW she may find you are far too gentle and considerate a lover to turn her on. That's another real possibility because she's probably had all kinds of sex and might like it rougher than you think. You'll only know if you explore together.

You wI'll be very surprised what you might enjoy sexually with her if she stops the games and stops making sex a taboo bargaining chip.

It's entirely possible you'll get past her past if she is fully transparent and honest AND gets counseling to understand why she lied about herself and why she would NOT want to open herself sexually with you.

Personally I'm a skeptic that likes to see the good in people. I believe she genuinely is ashamed of her past but I think she wants to ignore it and let it fester.

I also think she enjoyed her party chick days and sees you as her payday.

It would be interesting if you lied a bit too and said you were too stressed with your 90k a year jib and wanted to enjoy life like everyone you grew up with. Pick a low paying job that might be fun - I know a CPA in public accounting that left to detail cars - seriously that was his passion so he started a detailing shop. It happens. Pick something low paying and ask what she thinks of that. If she loves you and doesn't care about you as her payday she'll be suddenly concerned with your happiness, feel bad she didn't know you were unhappy, and fully support whatever you want. If not... you'll get a big argument. Seriously you might reveal her character - good or bad - by testing her. You are fully justified because you don't know this woman and might still want it to work out.

BTW this is my biggest fear with my boys who are off to college now - they're reLly good kids and wound miss all the red flags you've missed up till now. I'm trying to teach then there are people with vastly different sexual standards and values - and don't assume you're not being played. Good luck.


----------



## LadybugMomma

I'd rather hurt, knowing the truth than to have my feelings spared and be lied to. 

Your gut is telling you that things aren't ideal and that's why you're questioning whether to call the wedding off or not. Listen to your gut! At the very least, postpone it. This will send a reality check to your bride to be, real quick and she'll know you mean business. Have a talk with her, set your boundaries in stone and give it some time. 

Hash things out before you marry.


----------



## tech-novelist

Don't go through with it. You will regret being married to her.

Why? Because she's a liar. That should be enough for you to call off the wedding.


----------



## TAMAT

Arnold,

Please thank your brother for being a true friend to you, many would just look away and not speak up.

Another point is that she was willing to marry you without disclosing any of this. This would be grounds not just for divorce, but for an annulment!

It's also likely a lie that she claims not to remember your brother.

There is also the danger that she sees you as a husband and provider and not as a lover. I can't tell you how painful it has been when I discovered that my W gets really aroused giving oral years after marrying her and being denied almost every time. My W it turns out is a very sexual person just not for me.

Your brother is also closer in age to her than you are, this put you at risk. As we've see time and time again, when your relationship is under stress a woman will frequently go back to ex'es. Are you going to require your gf to never speak with your brother???

Having had sex with your Brother has created a permanent relationship between the two of them. An additional complication is how your Brothers wife or gf would feel about your gf being around.

Have your GF write out a timeline of her sexual activities for you, identifying ex lovers. 

Given what you wrote there may be alot more there, girl-girl action etc, so you will also want to get a lie detector test.

Tamat


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I do like how some of the people saying "the past is the past" and "she could have really changed," which I agree with, conveniently leave out she slept with his brother MULTIPLE times. I mean someone actually said "you may run into your ex SOs." There is no "may," in his case, it is a definite *WILL* unless he cuts his brother out of his life. Again, one of her ex sex partners is his BROTHER. Quit leaving it out to soapbox and pretend you are being progressive.


----------



## Evinrude58

It's simple. Ask your brother if he thinks you should marry thus woman.
His answer will be hell no!

She's not marriage material.
She will get bored with you.
She will use you for a paycheck, then figure out how to move on, WITH your money in her pocket.

That's my thinking. Could it be wrong?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifter777

arnold81 said:


> I won't lie. I love her. I love her a lot. At the same time,_* I just have a feeling that this won't work out. Like somehow this whole thing will come back to bite me in the arse if I marry her.*_ Outside of this problem, she is perfect. I couldn't ask for a woman with a better character. We will discuss things when she comes but I'm leaning more towards just calling off the relationship and moving on with my life. I can deal with being the laughing stock back home but having my brother in the mix is just too much for me.


Ding, ding, ding! I think in your heart you KNOW that this isn't going to work out and are still trying to accept this fact. 

The engagement period is a time when the couple get to know each other much better. It's a period designed for you to make judgements about everything regarding your partner. The person seemed like "the one" or you wouldn't have proposed so now is when you try to verify that your initial judgement of her was correct. 

I couldn't get past the fact that she did all of these things but I understand that it wouldn't mean a thing to some guys - maybe most guys. But add in the fact that she did them with my friends AND my brother and that ends things. It would simply be a non-starter regarding continuing the relationship for nearly everyone. 

If you truly believe you can live with her knowing what you know then go for it. If this is the case than my opinions mean nothing.


----------



## TaDor

phillybeffandswiss said:


> The irony. No, a grown up can say "I don't want to share with my brother." Yes, even if it is in the past.


They didn't *share*. His brother KNEW her and had sex with her in the past - NOT knowing that the OP and this woman would ever meet.

So no, there is no actual "sharing". he just hit it first.


----------



## knobcreek

For men or women it's unlikely someone can change their stripes in this regard. People who are sex-addicts, sex-crazed, low inhibitions, and very adventurous sexually will remain that way with or without you involved.

No way I would marry this woman, she should've been upfront with you about her past when she put you in the no-sex corner.

And if your brother and friends in town who all banged her know that she has you on a no sex regimen you are definitely being laughed at.


----------



## TaDor

italianjob said:


> Huh... Ah, well, the news here, man, is that being alright with sharing women with your siblings doesn't make you a more "grownup" person or a better man than anyone else. What it does it makes you an "Anything goes" kind of guy.
> 
> Good for you if you're happy with that, I'll pass on that one...


Okay, at WHAT point did arnold81 share his fiancee with his brother? At what POINT did I even say such a thing?

You, arnold81, myself and every MAN here has NO Fu**ing control of the sex life or any aspects of OTHER people_ BEFORE they ever MEET _them!

Past is the past, the woman arnold81 meet today *is* also because of her past that has lead them to the path in which they meet.

I've had sex with 100+ women, yet I didn't lie or cheat on my wife since we meet. As much as she knows what I have done, she doesn't KNOW everything - much of it, would require effort for me to remember everything, some of it - I was drunk. And she doesn't care to know anymore.

So, every time we meet a woman, are we to ask "have you ever done two dudes at the same time? Have done it in the rear?" That'll end the first date really quick - even if SHE has done those things.


----------



## Almost-Done

arnold81 said:


> I'm in a terrible place and I need some advice. I live in Palo Alto but I'm originally from Virginia. I met a woman on a dating site almost 2 years ago. She is from my hometown back in VA. We talked for 6 months before meeting in person. I've met her back in Va numerous times and she has visited me here in quite a few times. I proposed back in November and she accepted. I was sure that she was the one and I loved her to the point where I know I wanted to spend my life with her. This past April, I finally decided to let her meet my family. I invited her to my home in VA and she met my parents, both my sisters, and my brother. Everything went well and everyone seemed to like her. Since November, we've been making wedding plans, making reservations, preparing invitations. Our big day is supposed to be next month in July. Last week, I was home visiting and my brother called and said he needed to talk to me about something. He told me that there is something burning inside him and that he needed to tell me something. I could not imagine what it was but the news was that he knew my fiancee back in college. He said that she was quite the party girl and made her way around. He didn't want me to hear it from anyone else but he said that he, along with numerous other men at their school, slept with her. He said that he participated in a 3 way with her and another man. I didn't think he was telling the truth but I was stupid enough to ask for details. He talked about how they would get crazy drunk and she would sleep with him along with other numerous men. He said she had no shame and would routinely let men finish in her mouth and on her body. All in all, she was a real *****.
> 
> Still, I couldn't believe this. I asked a couple friends around town and I found out it was the truth. Their stories weren't as graphic but I could tell by their expressions that something more went on. I then confronted her about it and she first denied it. I kept bringing up names and dates and she eventually broke down crying and told me it was the truth. She said that she is "reformed" and doesn't participate in that behavior before. What hurts the most is that we are celibate until marriage. She never said that she was a virgin but she said that she wanted to wait until marriage for sex. I myself have never had sex before but I wanted our first time to be special on our wedding night. Although she hasn't cheated on me from what I know, I keep having these images of her in my head with my brother and other men. Also, she specifically told me that she isn't into oral and anal and I was fine with that. I love a woman that respects her body. However, I found that she has done both of these things with other men. I just feel like I'm the laughing stock of everybody at home. I feel like I'm getting the leftovers. I'm pretty successful in my career and I'm pulling 90k right now. My brother and the rest of his friends are barely pulling half that. Most of those guys are mostly jocks and knuckleheads while I've always been the one to bust my ass in school and in life. I feel like she had her fun and is settling with my because of my future. Maybe I'm wrong but that's how I feel. My mother says I should give her a chance but I'm not feeling good about this. However, I also feel bad about calling off the wedding since I've made a lot of promises to her. As stupid as it sounds, I still love her. I don't know what I'm thinking and maybe I'm rambling but any advice would be helpful.


Yes. You will just be hurt and in a worse financial situation after the divorce.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

TaDor said:


> They didn't *share*. His brother KNEW her and had sex with her in the past - NOT knowing that the OP and this woman would ever meet.


I didn't say they "share." My point is, a grown up can say no. It doesn't make you any more or less adult to forgive or forget the past. It is just a different choice and both are adult decision. 

To take it even further since you want to argue semantics, you are using present tense, I am not nor are others who made the same or similar points. Many posters are discussing the marriage which is about the FUTURE. Some of us are discussing hypothetical situations which may or WILL occur. This is called the future tense.



> So no, there is no actual "sharing". he just hit it first.


See the explanation above? Do you understand the context I am currently using?

My statement stands. He said he was saving himself for marriage. So, it is not a leap for us to expect some type of intercourse to occur during his marriage. Yes, at this point they will "share" a sex partner. So, it is okay for him to think or say


> I don't want to share with my brother."


 and call off the wedding.


----------



## TaDor

arnold81 said:


> I mentioned it earlier about my virginity but in short, there is no handicap or religious belief that is preventing me from having sex. It's just something that I've decided not to do until I've found the right person. As for her, yes, we are sexually attracted to each other. People that see her picture would describe her as hot. We have kissed and groped but it has never progressed any further than that. She says that I'm the first man that really loved her for her character and didn't just try to use her to get in her pants. I never felt like I am in a rush to sleep with her because I feel that if she is the right one, we have the rest of our lives to share that part of the relationship.


Sorry Arnold, I had much of the same idea myself in my youth. There is no such thing as "the perfect person" - we all have our faults, baggage and history. As we get older, "history" and baggage grows.

It seems like it was your call to "wait until marriage".

I'm sorry and will be blunt, the "the first time" is highly over-rated and as we get older - more so for men, it becomes harder to lose that virginity.
Now if your fiancee has been celibate for 2 years for YOU, then that is important to know. She can always take a lie detector test for that question, right?

Women are strange, they *all* have a perspective on things different from men.

You didn't understand the question that was presented to you, which is problematic. Sexual attraction is not the same as sexual compatibility.

You do NOT know what your sexual compatibility is with ANYONE because you have not had intercourse. There is a lot more to sex than simply sticking in your penis. Vaginas and penises come in all sizes, shapes and colors. What YOU may like, another man may not. Many women like anal, but not all. Most women like getting oral sex, but some do not. I was sexually attracted to a woman once, she told me that going down women was nasty and she won't allow it. For me, that is something I love doing and thus, sexual incompatibility - and I didn't waste any more of our time.

As you said it yourself "you like her for HER, not just her body". And *I* know how that feels, even as a man. You also don't have the rest of your lives to have sex. That can end any moment. People have been killed in accidents leaving their own wedding.

You should talk to her her, get everything out on the table. Consider the lie detector, aka polygraph. 

good luck.


----------



## italianjob

TaDor said:


> Okay, at WHAT point did arnold81 share his fiancee with his brother? At what POINT did I even say such a thing?
> 
> You, arnold81, myself and every MAN here has NO Fu**ing control of the sex life or any aspects of OTHER people_ BEFORE they ever MEET _them!
> 
> Past is the past, the woman arnold81 meet today *is* also because of her past that has lead them to the path in which they meet.
> 
> I've had sex with 100+ women, yet I didn't lie or cheat on my wife since we meet. As much as she knows what I have done, she doesn't KNOW everything - much of it, would require effort for me to remember everything, some of it - I was drunk. And she doesn't care to know anymore.
> 
> So, every time we meet a woman, are we to ask "have you ever done two dudes at the same time? Have done it in the rear?" That'll end the first date really quick - even if SHE has done those things.


As I said, if you're allright with it, great. If I learned what OP did about his GF and his brother, I wouldn't feel sexually sttracted to her anymore. If you have no issue with that good for you, it still doesn't make you More of a grown up, like you wrote, than the people Who would not feel allright with it.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

TaDor said:


> You, arnold81, myself and every MAN here has NO Fu**ing control of the sex life or any aspects of OTHER people_ BEFORE they ever MEET _them!


We all have control over the standards we hold and what we will accept regardless of gender. So, if he doesn't want to* share *a sex partner with his brother, he is not a bad person. Go read his OP again. He NEVER said she had to be a virgin. He even says she never stated what she was and HE STILL CHOSE to propose marriage.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Arnold,* don't you DARE disrespect or shame her with a lie detector test.* She didn't have an affair, she just has a sexual past. She was a party girl which bothers you, just like your brother's party boy lifestyle bothered you. You make an ADULT choice of either leaving or staying and live with your choice. Yes, it may suck, but if you leave she can have a healthy life with someone who doesn't care. If you don't, you accept her for what she is, a woman who loves you, by letting all of this go.


----------



## TaDor

After reading more and such... you are in a mess. And while I and others talked about a lie detector test, it *is* degrading... But it would not be about her past, but about what she has done since you two became exclusive.

In general, I think you both of you should go to couples counseling - even a few sessions. But over all, I think you'll never get past her sexual past. Your lack of sexual experience and and self-imposed virginity has hurt you more than you know.

As a few have stated, there are some women who PARTIED hard in their youth - then find a NICE guy to have plain VANILLA sex with to have kids, etc. I think that *IS* crappy. That is different than a party girl who does get married in a monogamous relationship yet still DOES the kinky sex she always enjoyed = OKAY.

With your lack of sex experience and her willingness to be vanilla, there are issues there that should be sorted out and on the table. If she DOES get off on her past, then either she is going to want you TO DO those things or find someone else who will.

Now, plain SEX gets boring... it does. There are so many ways to have good sex. And you should open your mind to such things. The idea of anal sex grossed me out when I was 20. I can say, its far from grossing me out today. Experience. 

Even being married for years, people's sexual ideas and preferences change and come and go. There are things I would like to try out still or think about. 

You may not be religious - but YOU may need to go find yourself a younger Christian girl who has only been married once or not at all. BTW, being a "Christian" doesn't mean they don't have a past or WON'T cheat on you.

I was talking with a good friend of mine about work-place infidelity. Then it hit her why SO MANY of her co-workers are cheating on their SOs. I told her it happens in most work-places... married or not.


----------



## Catherine602

When did she say that she wants only vanilla sex? The absence of 2 unreciprocated sex acts does not equal the end of passionate good sex for both of them. 

Having them does not guarantee a happy sex life, if mutual satisfaction is the goal. 

OP, mutually satisfying sex will make you both happy IMO. For me, good sex and orgasms equals more sex. Anal sex is an act that is painful if it is not driven by the desire of the recipient. 

Even when it's desired it may hurt for some reason. I am certain you love her enough not to get pleasure when she is in pain. 

The oral sex. Her objection may be the feeling that she is giving and not receiving and no longer likes that. In time she may be open to oral sex session, you give her then she gives you. 

It feels like less of a service which can get boring after a time. Spoken from experience.

My strong opinion is that you will not be able to have a restful mind about her sexual past or the reception. I know you are optimistic that her other attributes will help you to overcome these feelings and I sincerely hope you will. 

One thing you can do is not to have children until you are sure that you will not be miserable in the union. Better yet, postpone the wedding till this all settles down.


----------



## Catherine602

I have to make it clear that I feel she is as worthy of happiness, love and respect as any human being. 

Your chances for a satisfying sex life may be good if you are able to overcome the mind movies and the deception. 

I hope you prove my less than optimistic opinion wrong.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

It's the lies thru omission plus the fact she slept with someone in his immediate family that makes this untenable. It's one thing to let the past be the past between people coming from similar life experiences, but another thing when the chasm of experiences is vast. Expect her to throw herself at you in an attempt to rock your world. I hate to be clinical about this, but with your new info she will feel compelled to renegotiate with you to maintain your current agreement. Looks like oral and anal will no longer be off the table.

IMHO, don't fall for it.


----------



## foolscotton3

You know very little about your fiancée.

What you think you know was mostly a mask she put on.

Listen to your brother, he knows her better than you do, and he I honest, he also knows you pretty well.

She's not reformed, lol, she's was just good at fooling you until the truth came about.

NEXT!

Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


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## Catherine602

foolscotton3 said:


> You know very little about your fiancée.
> 
> What you think you know was mostly a mask she put on.
> 
> Listen to your brother, he knows her better than you do, and he I honest, he also knows you pretty well.
> 
> She's not reformed, lol, she's was just good at fooling you until the truth came about.
> 
> NEXT!
> 
> Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


How can you tell she is not reformed? It might help him if you were more specific about the signs that she is fooling him so he recognizes them.


----------



## Evinrude58

I tend to steer clear of reformed dope addicts, reformed gambling addicts, and such.

I'd this woman a reformed sex addict? I might be able to see the silver lining on this addiction, were it not for the fact that she's so reformed that OP isn't getting ANY.

I think she will cheat on OP.
Why? Because she is wild and he's not. Because she requires lots of sexual excitement and he may not be a good supplier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## knobcreek

The fact that she was doing 3-ways, anal, BJ's with anyone with a pulse, but to this guy she won't allow anything but kissing is such a kick in the nuts to him, I mean what kinda mind**** is that? I couldn't deal with that sort of betrayal, and no chance I could ever marry a woman who banged my brother, ever... Would make for an entertaining Thanksgiving dinner though.


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## Bobby5000

First, I remember a friend going to a wedding where a lot of people slept with the bride, and I think they are still happily married. I would probably go to counseling and perhaps try to discuss this. In all likelihood, she is probably telling the truth, and that these various activities made her unhappy. If she did not lie, I am not sure it was her obligation to disclose these various things. Ultimately the big question is whether you can get over this.


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## ABHale

The problem is you know way too many people she has done this things with, the main one being your brother. 

With that said, she won't do things with you once married that she did with him. Sounds like a boring sex life to me only doing it in the missionary position. 

The biggest problem is the completely different set of morals. To each their own but you need to find a girl that thinks like you. I know several hear where I live. Some are Christians some are not, they just want to wait.


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## foolscotton3

Catherine602 said:


> How can you tell she is not reformed? It might help him if you were more specific about the signs that she is fooling him so he recognizes them.


Because she hid, denied, and couldn't see past her own b.s. and how it might have deterred OP from wanting to settle down with her.

The whole idea that she acted like such a sexually-pure, inexperienced fvck screams mirroring. Then when called out she professes that she has reformed. Well now she is the only one who believes she is chaste. Everyone else knows she's a ****, but as long as she believes otherwise, she's justified in fooling her husband to be.

Withholding is the only way she can secure a commitment, because she's used up. She's tried this before, trust me, OP isnt the first guy to be duped into falling for a post wall skank.

Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


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## ABHale

Catherine602 said:


> I have to make it clear that I feel she is as worthy of happiness, love and respect as any human being.
> 
> Your chances for a satisfying sex life may be good if you are able to overcome the mind movies and the deception.
> 
> I hope you prove my less than optimistic opinion wrong.



The problem is she has stated that she will not do thing with him that she has already done with his brother. 

How can any sex life for him be good always knowing his brother is one up on him with his own wife. 

If she wanted to be as sexual with OP or more so then it might work, not really. She has already told OP no oral or other things. 

The oral thing might be because of a STD she knows about.


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## bandit.45

Sheezus is this thread still going?


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## bandit.45

Catherine602 said:


> How can you tell she is not reformed? .


Because she's a liar.


Folks....this doesn't have anything to do with sexual compatibility. If the brother had not told OP the truth, how long would she have led him on? She has defrauded him and manipulated him. 

Could you imagine being married to a woman for say five or six years, having a couple kids with her, and then find out from an old acquaintance you haven't seen in years that he was the guy who tagged teamed your wife with your younger brother many years previous? 

Maybe I'm reaching here, but stuff like that does happen.


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## Catherine602

ABHale said:


> How can any sex life for him be good always knowing his brother is one up on him with his own wife.


Perhaps he is the type of man who views sex with the woman he loves as more than a competitive sport? 

I noticed these raw and unguarded posts on this thread. They carry more weight than the carefully crafted declarations pitched to female audiences. 

Most are inconsistent with the sex= emotional connection with wife stuff. 

No wonder woman express doubt. Stay on message? 



end of jack


----------



## VFW

I must admit this is not a story you hear every day, so I think that as you have already seen the advice is going to vary and you are left drawing your own conclusion. I do have a couple of things that you may want to consider. Firstly I am from the camp that her past is her past and not a reason not to marry her. Secondly her body is her body and if she had done something previously and has now decided that it is not for her, that is her choice. Lastly, there is a double standard for men and women when it comes to sex, it is extremely unfair, but does exist in most folks.

However, the fact is your brother is the one who brought the event to your attention and she had every intent to marry you without you knowing, this deceit is on her and her character. As for the not wanting certain kinds of sex, I get the feeling that she may feel bad about herself for participating in what some may term as dirty acts. I believe that we all need to be dignified in the living room and tigers in the bedroom, but that is just me. I highly recommend premarital counseling to resolve what could be an issue after marriage.

There is still the issue of you and your family. Parents, brother, SIL and your fiancée need to know that this happened and able to move forward. I don’t know about jobs and commitments but the fact that this relationship is long distance does not work in your favor. I would be better if you were collocated and have a physical relationship to get the point of a more normal relationship.


----------



## sparrow55

EleGirl said:


> How old are the two of you?
> 
> You should call off the wedding.
> 
> Why? Because you are punishing her (your words) and your attitude about this is not going to get any better. The marriage is not going to work out for you.


Don't you see any problem with her lying about her sexual history when it is something very important for OP? 

OP can deal it better but aren't you selling "the woman is the victim" narrative a little too hard ?

If the guy is fine with his SO having a 100 partners before him, that is his prerogative. So is the guy who wants a woman with little or no sexual history. The gender does not matter. The point is honesty and openness. You could have told him a million constructive things instead of trying to shame him for his preferences.


----------



## sparrow55

Catherine602 said:


> Perhaps he is the type of man who views sex with the woman he loves as more than a competitive sport?
> 
> I noticed these raw and unguarded posts on this thread. They carry more weight than the carefully crafted declarations pitched to female audiences.
> 
> Most are inconsistent with the sex= emotional connection with wife stuff.
> 
> No wonder woman express doubt. Stay on message?
> 
> 
> end of jack


Maybe the difference is how different people/genders view sex and the level of open-ness they have. people have standards they are comfortable with. 

Imagine a guy who dated you going on to date your mother and sister after breaking up with you. I am sure you will feel nothing about it, right ? After all, he did break up.


----------



## ABHale

Catherine602 said:


> Perhaps he is the type of man who views sex with the woman he loves as more than a competitive sport?
> 
> I noticed these raw and unguarded posts on this thread. They carry more weight than the carefully crafted declarations pitched to female audiences.
> 
> Most are inconsistent with the sex= emotional connection with wife stuff.
> 
> No wonder woman express doubt. Stay on message?
> 
> end of jack




I do not view it as a competitive sport. But if I had waited like him I would hope my wife would have more of a desire to be intimate with me then someone she just had sex with. Sorry but she is the one that said she had no desire the do anything but basic sex with OP. Now he finds out she f half the town including his own brother and anything and everything was fair game. 

Then she comes to him and says this is all I am willing to do with you.

I am sure OP was fine with that until he found out everything she had been up to.

Marriage should be about love and desire for and from both involved, I do not see any desire for OP from her side with what he has posted.

So, if the woman I was to marry did not have a sexual desire for me like she had for others, why the he!! Would I marry her. She will get board one day and cheat anyway once she starts remembering how it use to be with others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss

She didn't lie or omit her past as far as he has stated. It is pretty apparent they didn't discuss it and this isn't a felony, previous marriage or a child which should 100% be disclosed IMO. Now, we can argue all day about the right or wrong about asking about sexual history, but she isn't a liar if it never came up. My issue is she lied when he asked and she had sex with his brother. 

It's funny, just like people keep dropping the brother issue, some keep forgetting he posted he could handle the sex partners and being a laughingstock, it is the BROTHER issue he can't get around.


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## foolscotton3

Um yeah, he asked her if she fvcked his bro and she denied, then he started dropping names from her passenger list and she confessed.


Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


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## phillybeffandswiss

foolscotton3 said:


> Um yeah, he asked her if she fvcked his bro and she denied, then he started dropping names from her passenger list and she confessed.


Umn, yeah I said the same thing with out the sarcastic insult.


> My issue is *she lied when he asked and she had sex with his brother. *


----------



## Maxo

WonkyNinja said:


> She sound like such a s**t, just the sort of person that your honest and decent brother wanted to be with. I'm sure no normal woman has ever let a man finish in her mouth.
> 
> He participated in a 3-way with her but warns you off marrying that type of girl? I trust that you will do the decent thing and contact all his dates to warn them what kind of guy he is.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry. She is a slvt but he is "quite the ladies man" but that's OK it's his life. Now I get it.
> 
> 
> 
> So you have other friends that lived the same way in college and you are going to trash your fiance based upon the fact that she had the same college life that they did.
> 
> You need to have a very serious conversation with her and tell her that there is no way you can marry her as you are just a judgmental hypocrite who holds women to a standard that you don't expect of your men friends. Let her go and find a decent person to marry.
> 
> I would suggest that this is a troll but unfortunately in this society it is quite believable.


He is not contemplating marriage to his brother or the other men.


----------



## TaDor

ABHale said:


> The problem is she has stated that she will not do thing with him that she has already done with his brother.
> 
> How can any sex life for him be good always knowing his brother is one up on him with his own wife.
> 
> If she wanted to be as sexual with OP or more so then it might work, not really. She has already told OP no oral or other things.
> 
> The oral thing might be because of a STD she knows about.


(from OP) _" Also, she specifically told me that she isn't into oral and anal and I was fine with that."_

Some people change over time. Also "isn't into" something doesn't mean "never". A woman I dated 10+ years ago, who was very much into ANAL, she isn't into it anymore. Also, sometimes women (people) do things they are NOT INTO, because they are drunk, scared, forced or simply to PLEASE someone else.


----------



## MEM2020

Catherine,

There's another factor at play here. And it's big. He tells her he's never done more than kiss and touch above clothing. She figures that the more 'innocent' she seems the more he will see her as similar to himself.




Catherine602 said:


> Perhaps he is the type of man who views sex with the woman he loves as more than a competitive sport?
> 
> I noticed these raw and unguarded posts on this thread. They carry more weight than the carefully crafted declarations pitched to female audiences.
> 
> Most are inconsistent with the sex= emotional connection with wife stuff.
> 
> No wonder woman express doubt. Stay on message?
> 
> 
> 
> end of jack


----------



## ABHale

TaDor said:


> (from OP) _" Also, she specifically told me that she isn't into oral and anal and I was fine with that."_
> 
> Some people change over time. Also "isn't into" something doesn't mean "never". A woman I dated 10+ years ago, who was very much into ANAL, she isn't into it anymore. Also, sometimes women (people) do things they are NOT INTO, because they are drunk, scared, forced or simply to PLEASE someone else.



I think she is marring him because he is a safe bet and makes good money. For her to go from dating jock types to him is a big switch. I just do not see it ending well. 

I think you will agree with one thing at least, people are willing to do more with those they are attracted to then those they are not. It is just like a WS doing things with their AP that they do not do with their BS.

This is just my opinion, I think she really likes him but is just marring him because he is a safe bet. I also believe he will never get over her and his brother being together.


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## knobcreek

Everything else aside, YOU CAN'T MARRY A WOMAN WHO TAG-TEAMED YOUR BROTHER AND HIS FRIEND AND LET THEM JIZZ IN HER FACE!!!! YOU SIMPLY CAN'T.


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## ABHale

OP posted "I just feel like I'm the laughing stock of everybody at home.( I feel like I'm getting the leftovers.) I'm pretty successful in my career and I'm pulling 90k right now. My brother and the rest of his friends are barely pulling half that. Most of those guys are mostly jocks and knuckleheads while I've always been the one to bust my ass in school and in life. I feel like she had her fun and is settling with my because of my future."

This is why it will not work.


----------



## BobSimmons

*He said she had no shame and would routinely let men finish in her mouth and on her body. All in all, she was a real *****.*

But your brother had no problem shagging someone who did this? And he's not a ***** for doing this but she is?


----------



## BobSimmons

VFW said:


> I must admit this is not a story you hear every day, so I think that as you have already seen the advice is going to vary and you are left drawing your own conclusion. I do have a couple of things that you may want to consider. Firstly I am from the camp that her past is her past and not a reason not to marry her. Secondly her body is her body and if she had done something previously and has now decided that it is not for her, that is her choice. Lastly, there is a double standard for men and women when it comes to sex, it is extremely unfair, but does exist in most folks.
> 
> However, the fact is your brother is the one who brought the event to your attention and she had every intent to marry you without you knowing, this deceit is on her and her character. As for the not wanting certain kinds of sex, I get the feeling that she may feel bad about herself for participating in what some may term as dirty acts. I believe that we all need to be dignified in the living room and tigers in the bedroom, but that is just me. I highly recommend premarital counseling to resolve what could be an issue after marriage.
> 
> There is still the issue of you and your family. Parents, brother, SIL and your fiancée need to know that this happened and able to move forward. I don’t know about jobs and commitments but the fact that this relationship is long distance does not work in your favor. I would be better if you were collocated and have a physical relationship to get the point of a more normal relationship.


Bravo, excellent post!


----------



## larry.gray

BobSimmons said:


> *He said she had no shame and would routinely let men finish in her mouth and on her body. All in all, she was a real *****.*
> 
> But your brother had no problem shagging someone who did this? And he's not a ***** for doing this but she is?


Did anyone say he's not? 

I called into question the heterosexual status of the brother. Other than that, little has been said about him. He's still the brother, you don't cut him off for being a ho.


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## TaDor

ABHale said:


> ~Most of those guys are mostly jocks and knuckleheads while I've always been the one to bust my ass in school and in life. I feel like she had her fun and is settling with my because of my future."
> 
> This is why it will not work.


That *IS* how it kind of works. Tom Leykis has said this many many times. Being a "nice guy" doesn't get you much in the women's dept. And two years of never having sex with each other is problematic.

So yeah, the JOCKS and LOSERS get the young women, party, party HARD, etc. When the woman is burnt OUT of that or her "moral" compass is changed, then they are out for a NICER GUY... stable. Have kids with. That's kind of good. But the factors I and others have gone over comes into play.

- Is she liking you ONLY for your stability? If so, then she'll likely get bored and will cheat. Or get a vibrator.
- You can be a STABLE and NICE guy, but in the bedroom - you need to be a beast, while not being abusive.

She's not 30+ years old, they meet online when she just turned 26yrs old. So I think she is MORE safe than just using him for his money. Many women who party that loose, continue well into their late 20s/early 30s and then Decide to Find Jesus and a "mr. Nice guy" that they only do once sexual position. Thats getting a raw deal, but its self-imposed. 

That is something for OP to figure out, talk to her family and friends too maybe, or how have they seem to think of them as a couple? It was his choice to NOT have sex with her. And he might have scared her about his lack of experience. A buddy of mine dated 2 women, a religious woman and a 27yr old virgin, both of them on an off for a year. He never got to home base with them, but he enjoyed the challenge. But in the mean time, he had sex with MANY other women anyway during the whole time. Most people don't wait months or years to have sex.

Being *pro-active* with women - gets you women. Waiting for the "perfect woman", never happens. 

Sorry, but younger women today are doing a bit more anal than before... and oral is pretty standard stuff. Trust me, our parents *HAVE* done these things. We don't ask. :surprise:

So the challenge as always:
1 - She must be available.
2 - She must be compatible with you on a personal level.
3 - She must be compatible with you in the bedroom. *
4 - She must be attractive TO YOU.
5 - YOU must be attractive TO HER.
6 - Your political and religious views being aligned should be similar.
7 - You can accept each others farts, burps and body odor.
8 - You are attracted to each others bodies as well. (sorry, but there are certain kinds of nipples and vaginas that I SIMPLY will turn me off for the long haul).

About #3: This is *SO* important. I dated a woman who lived a few blocks away MANY years ago. She had great income, very well done D-cup breast enhancements and in my book, **Girlfriend material** Her body, face, clothing was high on the scale. During sex, the first time - she sounded like a porn-star "oh yeah! Harder! Harder!" etc. She would NOT shut up! She required effort to do things only her way. After the 2nd night we had sex, well - I had a hard time staying *hard*. I went home early and we never did anything together again. 

Oh yeah, I consider her a bit crazy too... from her previous divorce, who knows whats truth.

A week later, I would meet my future wife. She lived 40min away (ugh!), works lower-paying jobs, natural A-cup breasts, quite silly and funny. She's cute, not much in clothing. But sex with her was *great* the first night, the 2nd, 3rd... etc. She touches me the right way (arm, leg, back) the way NO WOMAN has, only two others were half as "good". After all these years, and even the recent trauma - I can easily get hard for her. Oh, she's crazy too, but more to my liking.


----------



## TaDor

I would LIKE to remind people on this tread from the Original post by Arnold. Who say his brother is a "hero" by telling hims that his fiancee is a sl**.

1 - arnold81 and Woman have meet 2 years ago. (hes 34 and shes 26) 
2 - arnold81 proposed in NOV 2015.
3 - arnold81 finally decided to LET her meet his family??? Why not before? "she met my parents, both my sisters, and my brother. Everything went well and everyone seemed to like her. "
4 - arnold81's brother waits until about May 25th to tell him "she's a sl**". He had 4~7 weeks to TELL arnold81 the truth... Hell, maybe EVEN before then! You know, we have this thing call facebook and smartphones. So how does his family NOT know what this woman looks like since November? Its not the 1960's "Guess Whose coming to Dinner"!? If thats the case, wouldn't the brother know what SHE looks like since NOV? 6 months ago?

Today, when people get into a SERIOUS relationship, they SHARE photos or videos instantly. I didn't share photos of women I had ONS or FWB, etc. But when I was getting serious, I posted a photo of her/us after we've been dating several times and considered ourselves a couple.

The woman is quite young at 26, she isn't DESPERATE to find Mr. Nice guy. I think its still possible SHE is ashamed of her past, and scared to bring it up. OP, like any other man wouldn't have ask "Did you do a 3some with my brother by chance?" of someone they are dating.

The problems are still there from my previous posts. If she has been celibate with Arnold, that's good. But hopefully (if they stay together) they have a GoOD sex life together. If HE bores her, then it'll be a problem. *I think this is why MEN want a virgin - so that way, no matter how bad they are, or how small their penis is - the woman has NO EXPERIENCE to compare.
(2) I'll vouch for that. Had sex with a recently divorce woman years ago, even thou she was married for 10 years and had two kids. Her ex was lame in bed. I did things to her our first night, that he's never done for/to her.  hell, I was the first to go down on her. That's happened to me a few times! What a shame.

Therefore, hopefully Arnold is open to learning NEW things with his fiancee *if he stays with her*. I think it one of many things they need to talk about and figure out. Sex isn't the only thing for marriage and love - but its a big part of it.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

..


----------



## TaDor

This is a funny classic movie. A couple is on a train for their wedding. The Groom to be finds out his bride is not a virgin and starts after he's been thinking about her first man and has been thinking about it for a good while.

The clip is about 3min long. Barbara Stanwyck, Henry Fonda from 1941, a romance comedy.

https://youtu.be/qBHQ_F-E5i8?t=3m26s


----------



## TaDor

@TheTruthHurts:
First, pretty much EVERYONE here has a fvked up situation, some quite worse than mine.
So what if I had sex with countless people? In the end, I'm in love with one and not interested in others.
WS tend to leave their families. She was drunk every day too. And you are mistaken. She's 31 and I'm 41.
Yes, she was arrested for hitting me. We've had 2 failed / false "R"s, which is NOT uncommon. And as stated before, we didn't have therapy until recently nor have we talked about OUR issues TO each other, until we started therapy. We had bad communications and its work in progress. We both look forward to our MC/CC sessions.

I'm aware of what the OP learned, his brother also had MONTHS, maybe a year to SAY SOMETHING. What she did THEN, maybe she never really liked it - wanted to be accepted at the time. His brother is NOT innocent either. _ "she specifically told me that she isn't into oral and anal and I was fine with that."_ - *OP is okay with it. * She *DOESN'T* want to do that anymore - so that argument is a wash. Maybe she is traumatized, been abused? I don't quite get the oral thing. But hey, only 1/3rd men like to give oral anyway.

If this young woman is ashamed of her past, with ZERO desire to be that person. And wants to love and be loved by such a person as Arnold (and has no STDs, has be celibate as well) - then I don't see the need to throw her away.

In the end, its up to Arnold.

edit1 - your post is changed? my response above may seem "odd" - oh well.
edit2 - I've also SAVED myself for that special woman... it was a waste of my life to do so.


----------



## TaDor

larry.gray said:


> I called into question the heterosexual status of the brother. Other than that, little has been said about him. He's still the brother, you don't cut him off for being a ho.


I'd question your heterosexual status for your concerns of other peoples sexuality. The gay doesn't spread by standing next to a gay person, people don't suddenly turn "gay". Geez, but to add more confusion to you. There are straight men and women doing "homosex" porn because they are short on performers. It pays well... yep, they HOs.


----------



## italianjob

Bringing up the fact that his brother was morally reprehnsible just like her, while true, is absolutely pointless in this context...

1. He has to marry her, not his brother
2. His brother's sex life is none of his business. His wife/GFs is. Also he has nothing at stake sexually with his brothers so knowing his behavior in that field bears no importance to him. If his wife/GFs behavior does bear importance to him is for him to decide.
3. You can't choose siblings, but you CAN choose wives (and the standards for that choice are yours and yours alone, and not subject to any "fair opportunity" paradigm)

I agree that the brother is not a nice man, but this bears no importance in the matter at discussion. Someone may have a point in saying that he should have spoken the first time he saw her, but maybe he decided to disclose a part of his life he's not exactly proud of only when he saw that arnold was determined to marry her.


----------



## bandit.45

Catherine602 said:


> Perhaps he is the type of man who views sex with the woman he loves as more than a competitive sport?
> 
> I noticed these raw and unguarded posts on this thread. They carry more weight than the carefully crafted declarations pitched to female audiences.
> 
> Most are inconsistent with the sex= emotional connection with wife stuff.
> 
> No wonder woman express doubt. Stay on message?
> 
> 
> 
> end of jack


Jack off you mean. 

That is the most irrelevant post I've ever seen you make.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Naku said:


> There is no double standard. Men don't want to marry a woman with a high partner count,* women don't care.* To each his own.


Women, well some women, absolutely do care. Who wants a jaded, crusty, nasty a.s.s. sniffing dog? No thanks.

Also, related to that, men do what arnold81's fiance seems to be doing. Sleaze around while young, but then want to marry a nice, good girl. Who'll be a good mother, bookkeeper, maid. Someone who he can feel confident is carrying HIS child. I feel the need to say that, because this thread has a lot of spite aimed at women who are sexually wild when young, then marry the safe, stable dude. This hypocrisy is carried out by both men and women.

@arnold81

The reason you shouldn't marry this woman is because she's had sex with your brother. That can never unhappen. I promise you. It can't be overcome.

And yes, significantly, she lied to you. Not fair.

I want to suggest,as a couple of other folks already have; maybe she LOVED what she did in her past. She quit doing it because at 26ish, she'd like to start having kids and a stable family life. You're the guy whose perfect for that.

I'm going to guess that oral and anal (), are off the table 'cause she's not "hot" for you. If she was, she'd probably be willing to at least try them, since she seems to have done them plenty in the past. She might try them with you, then say, "Arnold, anal hurts now, I don't want to anymore". You'd have to respect that. But to tell you right off the bat that those acts aren't part of her repertoire doesn't seem right.

She seems a bit bossy with you. She tells you what your sex life is gonna be like. She flips out *on you* after you tell her the wedding is postponed because she did your brother. Am I wrong, or is she much more assertive than you, despite you being 8 years older.

I could see her using her extensive sexual skills to absolutely bamboozle you into marrying her; or to bond you to her right after marriage - then turning it off once you get her pregnant. Or giving you sex on a reward type basis. She seems calculated in her relationship with you.

There isn't anything wrong with a 34 year old male virgin. Some folks here are trying to ridicule you for that. I just think that since you take sex seriously; you'd be far happier with a woman who has a similar attitude.

Can I ask a sensitive ? Are you comfortable with your body? Does the idea of being naked in front of a woman seem like fun; or does it make you very nervous? *Don't marry someone until you feel like you accept and like your physical self. *Don't feel that you have to take what you can get.

That said, is this girl much "hotter" than you? Try to be honest. If she is, then you have to wonder why she is with you, right? It's much wiser to pair up with someone close to the same sexual attractiveness as you. It keeps the power balanced.

But really, you can't marry her; because she had sex with your brother. We don't get to be special or significant in this life very much. Most of us don't get to be our SO's one and only sex partner. I don't think I'm the most exciting sex my H has had. But, hey, at least he never laid my sister. I've got that shred of dignity. I suggest you hang on to that dignity too, arnold.

@Catherine602 OMG, you're so right, the "sex as meaningful connection" did kinda disappear in a puff of smoke, huh? But how could it be otherwise when arnold's brother was "first in all holes" Laugh?? Cry?? Give up?? Yes, give up on the "sex as meaningful connection". How I wish I could have been taught that as a teenage girl. It DOESN'T exist.


But, in case anyone managed to miss it, @TaDor has been with over a 100 women. So there.


----------



## italianjob

notmyrealname4 said:


> Women, well some women, absolutely do care. Who wants a jaded, crusty, nasty a.s.s. sniffing dog? No thanks.
> 
> Also, related to that, men do what arnold81's fiance seems to be doing. Sleaze around while young, but then want to marry a nice, good girl. Who'll be a good mother, bookkeeper, maid. Someone who he can feel confident is carrying HIS child. I feel the need to say that, because this thread has a lot of spite aimed at women who are sexually wild when young, then marry the safe, stable dude. This hypocrisy is carried out by both men and women.
> 
> @arnold81
> 
> The reason you shouldn't marry this woman is because she's had sex with your brother. That can never unhappen. I promise you. It can't be overcome.
> 
> And yes, significantly, she lied to you. Not fair.
> 
> I want to suggest,as a couple of other folks already have; maybe she LOVED what she did in her past. She quit doing it because at 26ish, she'd like to start having kids and a stable family life. You're the guy whose perfect for that.
> 
> I'm going to guess that oral and anal (), are off the table 'cause she's not "hot" for you. If she was, she'd probably be willing to at least try them, since she seems to have done them plenty in the past. She might try them with you, then say, "Arnold, anal hurts now, I don't want to anymore". You'd have to respect that. But to tell you right off the bat that those acts aren't part of her repertoire doesn't seem right.
> 
> She seems a bit bossy with you. She tells you what your sex life is gonna be like. She flips out *on you* after you tell her the wedding is postponed because she did your brother. Am I wrong, or is she much more assertive than you, despite you being 8 years older.
> 
> I could see her using her extensive sexual skills to absolutely bamboozle you into marrying her; or to bond you to her right after marriage - then turning it off once you get her pregnant. Or giving you sex on a reward type basis. She seems calculated in her relationship with you.
> 
> There isn't anything wrong with a 34 year old male virgin. Some folks here are trying to ridicule you for that. I just think that since you take sex seriously; you'd be far happier with a woman who has a similar attitude.
> 
> Can I ask a sensitive ? Are you comfortable with your body? Does the idea of being naked in front of a woman seem like fun; or does it make you very nervous? *Don't marry someone until you feel like you accept and like your physical self. *Don't feel that you have to take what you can get.
> 
> That said, is this girl much "hotter" than you? Try to be honest. If she is, then you have to wonder why she is with you, right? It's much wiser to pair up with someone close to the same sexual attractiveness as you. It keeps the power balanced.
> 
> But really, you can't marry her; because she had sex with your brother. We don't get to be special or significant in this life very much. Most of us don't get to be our SO's one and only sex partner. I don't think I'm the most exciting sex my H has had. But, hey, at least he never laid my sister. I've got that shred of dignity. I suggest you hang on to that dignity too, arnold.
> 
> @Catherine602 OMG, you're so right, the "sex as meaningful connection" did kinda disappear in a puff of smoke, huh? But how could it be otherwise when arnold's brother was "first in all holes" Laugh?? Cry?? Give up?? Yes, give up on the "sex as meaningful connection". How I wish I could have been taught that as a teenage girl. It DOESN'T exist.
> 
> 
> But, in case anyone managed to miss it, @TaDor has been with over a 100 women. So there.


Big quote on every single point.


----------



## italianjob

notmyrealname4 said:


> But, in case anyone managed to miss it, @TaDor has been with over a 100 women. So there.


Really? Where did he write that?

Well... You know, one or two of the ladies might get curious...


----------



## ABHale

BobSimmons said:


> *He said she had no shame and would routinely let men finish in her mouth and on her body. All in all, she was a real *****.*
> 
> But your brother had no problem shagging someone who did this? And he's not a ***** for doing this but she is?


OP is not his brother and the OP did not call her any names. That was said by OP's brother to him.

OP still says he loves her but can not get past what she did with his brother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Arnold?


Arnold?


See Arnold, the way this thread works is....you come on and post your story and ask questions. 

Then we comment on your situation and ask you questions in return. Then you come back and answer questions, make comments and ask more questions. And we com back with more questions, answers and comments. 

And back and forth and so on. That's how discussion threads work. It's hard for us to discuss things with you when you don't come back and talk to us.


----------



## TaDor

italianjob said:


> Big quote on every single point.


So edit down the QUOTE - so its not sucking up so much screen and the point of the response isn't lost.


And, sure I had sex with lots of women, some things that are not possible with my wife (due to her injuries and small size) - but she is a reason for my desire to have a healthy monogamy relationship. Someone who I actually fell in love with.


----------



## Catherine602

*He said she had no shame and would routinely let men finish in her mouth and on her body. All in all, she was a real *****.* 

For the men who blame their wives for refusing to do these things, read this thread. They're refusing to be [email protected] or shamed, right? Sex acts don't make a person a [email protected] She was deceptive for not telling him about herself and that's it. 

If sexually frustrated husbands want to understand why their wives reject their attempts to be sexually creative, they should try stepping into their shoes. 

Whether married or single, sexual experimentation is the same, if no deception, coercion or cheating is involved. 

This whole thread is a study in the pervasive negative attitude towards sex. Married women are blamed for adhering to the same cultural norms they were praised for when single. Marriage does not wipe the slate clean. Stay on message?

end of jack


----------



## ABHale

TaDor said:


> @TheTruthHurts:
> First, pretty much EVERYONE here has a fvked up situation, some quite worse than mine.
> So what if I had sex with countless people? In the end, I'm in love with one and not interested in others.
> WS tend to leave their families. She was drunk every day too. And you are mistaken. She's 31 and I'm 41.
> Yes, she was arrested for hitting me. We've had 2 failed / false "R"s, which is NOT uncommon. And as stated before, we didn't have therapy until recently nor have we talked about OUR issues TO each other, until we started therapy. We had bad communications and its work in progress. We both look forward to our MC/CC sessions.
> 
> I'm aware of what the OP learned, his brother also had MONTHS, maybe a year to SAY SOMETHING. What she did THEN, maybe she never really liked it - wanted to be accepted at the time. His brother is NOT innocent either. _ "she specifically told me that she isn't into oral and anal and I was fine with that."_ - *OP is okay with it. * She *DOESN'T* want to do that anymore - so that argument is a wash. Maybe she is traumatized, been abused? I don't quite get the oral thing. But hey, only 1/3rd men like to give oral anyway.
> 
> If this young woman is ashamed of her past, with ZERO desire to be that person. And wants to love and be loved by such a person as Arnold (and has no STDs, has be celibate as well) - then I don't see the need to throw her away.
> 
> In the end, its up to Arnold.
> 
> edit1 - your post is changed? my response above may seem "odd" - oh well.
> edit2 - I've also SAVED myself for that special woman... it was a waste of my life to do so.


Should Arnold not have a say if he wants to be with a lady with this in her past. He has waited by his choice, and she lead him to believe her past was not so colorful. Yes, he knew she was active before him but not like this and not with his brother. I understand not bringing up someone's past when you are dating and getting to know one another. When that turns from dating to starting to talk about marriage. That is when she should have told him about it and how she felt now and wanted to forget about it and leave it in the past. She didn't, now OP was blindsided by it and it included his brother. 

If he decides not to marry her because of her past that is his right. Just like it was her right to do the things she did. No one has the right to bash someone else for the choices they make for themselves. We just have to live with the repercussions of are actions when they come. We have all done things in are past we want to leave there, unfortunately some things will not stay there.

I hope she finds someone to love and be loved by, I just think it is the OP's choice if it will be him or not.


----------



## Catherine602

notmyrealname4 said:


> But, in case anyone managed to miss it, @TaDor has been with over a 100 women. So there.


[email protected] >


----------



## italianjob

TaDor said:


> So edit down the QUOTE - so its not sucking up so much screen and the point of the response isn't lost.
> 
> 
> And, sure I had sex with lots of women, some things that are not possible with my wife (due to her injuries and small size) - but she is a reason for my desire to have a healthy monogamy relationship. Someone who I actually fell in love with.


I understand it's hard to take a joke, but I still think I can decide by myself how much of a quote I want to include, thank you....


----------



## kenmoore14217

"Outside of this problem, she is perfect. " reminds me of: Other than that Mrs Lincoln, how did you like the play?


----------



## MEM2020

QFT




Catherine602 said:


> *He said she had no shame and would routinely let men finish in her mouth and on her body. All in all, she was a real *****.*
> 
> For the men who blame their wives for refusing to do these things, read this thread. They're refusing to be [email protected] or shamed, right? Sex acts don't make a person a [email protected] She was deceptive for not telling him about herself and that's it.
> 
> If sexually frustrated husbands want to understand why their wives reject their attempts to be sexually creative, they should try stepping into their shoes.
> 
> Whether married or single, sexual experimentation is the same, if no deception, coercion or cheating is involved.
> 
> This whole thread is a study in the pervasive negative attitude towards sex. Married women are blamed for adhering to the same cultural norms they were praised for when single. Marriage does not wipe the slate clean. Stay on message?
> 
> end of jack


----------



## MEM2020

Arnold,

This thread has a synthetic feel to it. Your absence and lack of contribution are adding to that feeling. 

Absent substantive input from you by tomorrow morning - I will lock the thread. 






bandit.45 said:


> Arnold?
> 
> 
> Arnold?
> 
> 
> See Arnold, the way this thread works is....you come on and post your story and ask questions.
> 
> Then we comment on your situation and ask you questions in return. Then you come back and answer questions, make comments and ask more questions. And we com back with more questions, answers and comments.
> 
> And back and forth and so on. That's how discussion threads work. It's hard for us to discuss things with you when you don't come back and talk to us.


----------



## WorkingWife

Catherine602 said:


> *He said she had no shame and would routinely let men finish in her mouth and on her body. All in all, she was a real *****.*
> 
> For the men who blame their wives for refusing to do these things, read this thread. They're refusing to be [email protected] or shamed, right? Sex acts don't make a person a [email protected] She was deceptive for not telling him about herself and that's it.


I think the point was that she did these "sex acts" with multiple men at once in front of other people.

So yes, she was definitely a "****" as were the men coming all over her.

Personally, I hold the men in even higher disregard than her because, assuming this thread is even true, which I kind of doubt, there is obviously something really sad and wrong going on with a woman who would participate in those public sex acts with random men, and the men involved were sick pigs who took advantage of this troubled women. 

There are reasons both men and women should be "ashamed" to be ****s. There are a lot of negative physical and emotional consequences to this kind of random, reckless sex, consequences that do not end with the individuals having sex if the woman gets pregnant.

I think both men and women should be ashamed to participate in gang bangs but women have more to lose because they are the ones who can end up pregnant. If we're not going to shame women for being ****s then neither can we shame men for getting women they don't care about pregnant and walking away. In that world, everyone is free to be reckless regardless of consequences.

A young woman/girl may not be able to wrap her head around the long term consequences of this type of behavior but she can understand that she doesn't want to be known as the town *****.


----------



## Catherine602

Since the OP appears to have vanished.

@WorkingWife I think a strong sense of self-respect and a sense of self-preservation are qualities that are useful during sexual maturation for men and women. A good childhood free of CSA and strong parental guidance also helps. More importantly, respect for others and a sense of compassion is vital. 

Very often women who are highly experimental were abused as children. They associate sex with approval and acceptance when they are very young. When they experience more of the world, they realize that they have been violated by a predator when they were vulnerable and had the possibility for a normal maturation taken away. They do reform, they mature and realize what has been done to them. 

If this is a real story, I don't know if this has touched this relationship.


----------



## sparrow55

BobSimmons said:


> *He said she had no shame and would routinely let men finish in her mouth and on her body. All in all, she was a real *****.*
> 
> But your brother had no problem shagging someone who did this? And he's not a ***** for doing this but she is?



He will not be sharing his sexual, emotional and financial future with his brother.


----------



## arnold81

I appreciate all the helpful advice. I had to stay away the past couple days since she was here and I really wanted to delve into all out issues 1 on 1. I went in to our conversation telling her that I want to call off the relationship and the wedding. She asked me why and I told her that I was uneasy about her past. I told her I could get over it about the other men but never about my brother. I can't block him from my life so I would always wonder about them when we are all together. 

She seemed to understand but broke down crying. She said that she was not a party girl to have fun. She said the things she's done in the past was her way for looking for acceptance. We talked about this briefly before but at that time, she talked about trying to fit in back in high school and among her family She has very controlling parents and nothing she ever did was ever good enough. She said that the sleeping around in college wasn't just to have fun. It was just for her to be accepted and be the cool girl. She said that it took her years to realize that she had no self respect and that men didn't respect her. She said that there would always be some girl out there that was bolder or crazier so she realized that she was going down the wrong path. That's why she decided to turn her life around and stop with that behavior.

As far as the sexual things that she is unwilling to do. She says that it's because they bring back painful memories from her past. However, she says that it's unfair to deny those things to me since I had no control over her past. She says that when we do have sex, she is willing to do those things since she knows that I'm the man that she will spend the rest of her life with.

So that's where we stand. I went in wanting to cancel everything and now, we are kind of stuck in limbo. I still have the feelings of guilt since I feel I'm being too judgemental and she doesn't deserve that. I've spoken to my brother since all of this and although he thinks she's a great girl, he says that it's my decision to marry her. He is in a serious relationship now and is focused on that. He just wanted me to know about their past relationship before I ended up finding out another way.


----------



## Bibi1031

thank you for posting. I'm glad you ended it. You feel guilty, but you shouldn't. Her past is not the problem, her deceit is!

I'm glad you told her the important thing which is that you can't let go of her past with your brother. You are not in limbo anymore as you have told her what is very probably going to happen. 

This relationship will end. You deserve a partner that is not as deceitful as this woman regardless of her excuses. They are just that, excuses.


----------



## jim123

Such behavior needs professional help. I am not being mean but trying to support anyone in this type of position.

A lack of self esteem as exhibited needs to be addressed. It does not go away on it's own.


----------



## WorkingWife

Catherine602 said:


> Since the OP appears to have vanished.
> 
> @WorkingWife I think a strong sense of self-respect and a sense of self-preservation are qualities that are useful during sexual maturation for men and women. A good childhood free of CSA and strong parental guidance also helps. More importantly, respect for others and a sense of compassion is vital.
> 
> Very often women who are highly experimental were abused as children. They associate sex with approval and acceptance when they are very young. When they experience more of the world, they realize that they have been violated by a predator when they were vulnerable and had the possibility for a normal maturation taken away. They do reform, they mature and realize what has been done to them.
> 
> If this is a real story, I don't know if this has touched this relationship.


I totally agree with you. I think that this kind of reckless behavior is usually driven by either deep insecurity - feeling a need for attention from males because the girl does not feel worthy, or thinks that without giving sex there is no attention from males, or women who have been sexually abused.

And I definitely think a woman can mature and change and become a totally different person than the girl who did those things. And hopefully find someone who loves and accepts her for who she is today, and feels compassion rather than contempt for who she was in the past. 

Though I think it's also reasonable for a man not to want to be with a woman with a checkered past if he feels strongly about it. Just like it's reasonable for a woman not to want a husband who's participated in those types of things.

I mainly wanted to toss in the idea that I believe there IS a very valuable place for SHAME in our society. It seems the mantra of the day is to never "judge" or "shame" anyone no matter what they do. What few lines are left, are blurred. No behavior is judged off limits, no matter how reckless and irresponsible. 

I don't think we're doing confused young girls a favor if we act like they should not be ashamed to have sex with a bunch of guys at once at a party. Just like we're not helping turn boys into men if we act like it's fine for them to treat any girl that way even if she is, at the moment, willing.


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## Catherine602

Guilt is natural, you are a warm and loving person. I feel sympathy for her and I don't know her. I want her to have a good life and be rewarded for overcoming her feelings of low self-worth. 

However, you cannot make her happy but there is someone who can. There is someone who can suit you as well. It is not your fault that you got to this sad point, it was the dishonesty. She has learned another lesson, she does not need to hide parts of herself to be loved. She needs to reveal herself and find a man who loves who she is. She can relax and enjoy without wearing a mask. 

So you are doing something good for her. If you married, you would not be able to love her the way she needs. That does not make her a bad person, it's a matter of compatibility. She has a right to choose someone who loves who she is and so do you.

Do her and yourself a good, make it a surgical cut. Be firm and resolute. Don't call to see how she is doing, don't text go completely NC. This is not mean and cold and not meant to punish her, she will recover much faster that way. Marriage will not work no matter how much sympathy you have. Let her know it's the best way and that you understand why she did it and you don't hate her but it must end.


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## TheTruthHurts

Don't feel guilty. But it's ok to feel sad - for her, you and the loss of your relationship. That's actually healthy.

You have standards and boundaries and these things cross lines for you. Ok. That's why we have boundaries.

I'm sure she's a nice person who just isn't compatable with you.

That shouldn't involve guilt - you've done nothing except become aware of a past she hid from you.

She definitely needs counseling - please help her get that.


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## bandit.45

TaDor said:


> So edit down the QUOTE - so its not sucking up so much screen and the point of the response isn't lost.
> 
> 
> And, sure I had sex with lots of women, some things that are not possible with my wife (due to her injuries and small size) - but she is a reason for my desire to have a healthy monogamy relationship. Someone who I actually fell in love with.


The same wife who cheated on you and treated you like sh!t?


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## manfromlamancha

Arnold, as I have said in the past, I do understand where you are coming from.

And I have also said that the main problem was the fact that she was with your brother - the rest was in the past.

If you can get past the brother thing, then you can have a chance at success but its going to be very difficult - make no mistake about that.

She has two main sets of problems that need to be addressed:

The first is the issues she had that led her to believe that she needed to do what she did to be accepted. I am not sure that this is the entire truth. I can understand doing it to be accepted but there is a strong chance that she actually enjoyed some of it - and why not - it probably was good, enjoyable sex - nothing more. However, the issue here is that she needs to *be able to be honest with you* about it and then, she needs to *be honest with you*. You will have to enable her honesty by listening empathetically and hopefully you will get the whole truth, which brings me to the second set of problems.

The second set is to do with her lying to you about it. As I said this is more understandable if she felt she couldn't be honest with you.

If what she says is true, then she deserves a chance at happiness and commendations to her for getting her act together. However, it would take a very strong and secure male to be able to help her and stand up to any other comments etc that may be made. It would have to start with telling your brother that you never want to hear anymore about it ever - and then showing everyone how strong your love for each other is. This means having to face everyone down that wants to take pot shots at her (and you).

If you feel you can do this, then you should be happy that you have a strong reformed woman who loves you and whom you love - but make sure that she gets all the help she needs.

Else, simply let her go (as I said before - for her sake as much as yours).

Good luck!


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## TheTruthHurts

@arnold81 what's the status. I was confused a little by your update. You had a good talk - and intended to break it off - but ended up in limbo. Does that mean the talk made you second guess yourself?

I Really think you need to be careful about making decisions based on guilt. That's codependent - changing your mind or letting someone else decide for you in reactions to what she may be feeling or thinking.

I personally feel good relationships involve codependency if both partners are sensitive to each other and empathetic to their needs. But that isn't the same as setting aside your feelings, beliefs and boundaries because your GF is sad or negatively affected by this.

Remember if she is upset it SHOULD be at HER behavior then and then HER choice to hide this from you when you've made clear that your sexuality is private and your virginity is important.

Sorry to rehash what's been written already. It's just that these pages are full of relationship problems that stem from 3 separate things - incompatibility, poor communication and deceit. Take care of those things and you stand a good chance for any relationship to be healthy.

What did you mean by limbo?


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## bandit.45

Arnold don't feel guilty about breaking up with her. 

After reading your last update I still think you are missing the point. It is not about the sex, or about what she is or is not willing to do for you sexually. It is about honesty and trust. You must have both in a marriage to make it work. It also takes honesty and trus to have a fulfilling sex life. 

For whatever reason, your fiancee did not trust you enough to tell you the truth about her past. I don't know about you, but I would not marry someone who does't trust me.

Nor was she honest when you first confronted her. It was only when you presented her with incontrovertible evidence that she backed down and admitted to shagging your brother and having monkey sex with multiple partners. 

If she had told you the truth from the moment she found out you were a past sex-partner's brother, then at that point you could have verified it and dealt with it in some way. But it sounds like she has been deceiving you from the very start. If she lied about her sex history, I wonder what other humdingers she has told you?


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## StilltheStudent

Do not marry this girl arnold. Please.

Sexual compatibility is immensely important and there are just so many red flags here.

"Party Girl" with self-esteem issues who slept around a lot? Check.
Lies about her past to the "Successful Nice Guy," to cover it up? Check.
Decides that numerous sexual activities she did in the past are now off limits? Check.

Suddenly puts items back on the table when threatened to lose the Nice Guy? Check.

Add into that one of her former three-some partners was your brother and the fact that he will have shared a part of her sexual identity that you never will….just no man.

This is textbook.

Find a women who shares your views on sex and ideally one who did not sleep with your brother.



And yes, while the honesty issue is part of it, the sexual behaviors of this girl are also an issue.

This would literally be a case of "girl has wild parties when young, finds nice provider to have vanilla duty sex with once a month to keep happy."

Arnold would end up on r/Deadbedrooms in about 6-months.

Sidenote: Huge points to the brother. That is not an easy conversation to have and you should be thankful he had it with you before the marriage.


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