# A Glutton for Punishment



## HusbandFatherSelf

Ref my previous thread if you would like some background.

I realize that what I'm doing goes against the advice of many of you here. 

I came to the realization that giving a no contact/divorce ultimatum to my WW was not beneficial because our marriage was in such a poor place that there was little incentive for her to want to try and save it; also she is beholden to her affair.

Unfortunately I came to that realization a little late. When my WW broke the no contact agreement (2 weeks after ultimatum) I flipped and turned very angry and spiteful and alienated her even more. 

I recognize but am disregarding hard 180 advice. If I have any hope of saving my marriage it is by fighting for her now. That fighting is not going to be begging and pleading with her; it is working on myself and demonstrating that I can be the husband she expects and I know I can be.

We live in the District of Columbia and it requires that a married couple be separated for 6 months prior to filing for a divorce. I have about 5 months left. She thinks her heart is too far gone but I'm not ready to give up. 

She has agreed to attend marriage counseling. We realize that this counseling may just be a way for both of us to work on ourselves and split more amicably. I have higher hopes than that but am prepared for anything.

The reason for my post is simply to continue the dialogue from my rather lengthy previous thread and also to ask for advice on choosing a therapist.

Anyone in the greater DC area care to share counseling experience or make a recommendation for a high quality therapist? 

Thank you in advance for any advice offered.


----------



## Dyokemm

OP,

I hate to tell you this, but no amount of counseling/therapy or attempts to 'nice' her back will work at all.

Filing for D, doing the hard 180, and kicking her to the curb hard are the ONLY chance you have.

There can be no attempt to save anything while the A is still going on.

The reason for the hard line is not to punish your WW, but to demonstrate to her clearly that you will not tolerate the A or the situation, period.

She has to see that she is really going to lose you entirely to have any chance of snapping out of this 'fog' and wanting to start to save her M.

And if she won't, then you need to move on as fast as possible for your own dignity and emotional health.

Stop letting her Cake Eat.


----------



## EleGirl

HusbandFatherSelf,

Get the book _*"Surviving an Affair"*_ by Dr. Harley. It will give you the advice you need is there is any hope in your getting her back. Don't let her know you have the book right now as you do not want her to think that you are just following some temp plan and playing her.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Advice? Well, you need to add details.

Is she still in contact with the OM?
Does she live/visit OM at his or your house?
Are they still having sex?
Is she still at the same workplace with the OM and your mutual friends?


Counseling isn't going to work if she is having her cake and eating too.


----------



## HusbandFatherSelf

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Advice? Well, you need to add details.
> 
> Is she still in contact with the OM?
> Does she live/visit OM at his or your house?
> Are they still having sex?
> Is she still at the same workplace with the OM and your mutual friends?
> 
> 
> Counseling isn't going to work if she is having her cake and eating too.


The OM is now her primary partner; she says very clearly that she doesn't think she's capable of reconciling but I know her well enough to see the secret hope in her heart. A combination of three things are holding her back; The fog, her love for him which I stood by and let develop like an idiot, and her disbelief in the prospect of me changing. 

Throughout our relationship there have been considerable financial difficultys, sexual problems, substance abuse (mostly alcohol), and for the past couple years I have second guessed my love for her and simply been a poor partner. I'm not 100% to blame for all of this but I contributed more than my share.

These things don't change over night. She knows that, I know that.

If I were her I wouldn't wish to be married to me either. My hope is that I can make the personal changes necessary over the next few months that will woo her again. If not, so be it. I'm ready either way. 

She didn't ruin our marriage with her affair. WE ruined our marriage over the course of the couple years prior with poor decision after poor decision and emotional detachment; the affair is a symptom.

He does not come to our house. When our children are away with their grandparents she spends her time with him. They are still having sex. She is still in the same workplace; OM is not in that workplace. He lives nearer to her, closer than our home is to her work.

She knows that to rebuild she will have to cut him out entirely. I know she is torn. All is not lost.


----------



## HusbandFatherSelf

Dyokemm said:


> OP,
> 
> I hate to tell you this, but no amount of counseling/therapy or attempts to 'nice' her back will work at all.
> 
> Filing for D, doing the hard 180, and kicking her to the curb hard are the ONLY chance you have.
> 
> There can be no attempt to save anything while the A is still going on.
> 
> The reason for the hard line is not to punish your WW, but to demonstrate to her clearly that you will not tolerate the A or the situation, period.
> 
> She has to see that she is really going to lose you entirely to have any chance of snapping out of this 'fog' and wanting to start to save her M.
> 
> And if she won't, then you need to move on as fast as possible for your own dignity and emotional health.
> 
> Stop letting her Cake Eat.


I don't think this is bad advice. And this is the line I took with her. Only a few days into I realized that it was the wrong move because losing me is not something she is really afraid of. Losing the person she fell in love with and married? Maybe. 

The indignation I felt toward her and the feeling I had that our recent problems were all her fault is what poisoned the attempt at reconciling. I took advantage of her unconditional love and she may never be able to recover. 

We both need professional help. I'm getting it for us and hoping for the best.

It's hard to put into words how badly I want to have her back. How badly I want the opportunity to right the wrongs I have done to her and start over. But that longing is tempered with a firm footing in the reality of the likelihood of divorce.


----------



## azteca1986

She has agreed to come to marriage counseling whilst still having sex with the OM? How does she reconcile that?


----------



## HusbandFatherSelf

azteca1986 said:


> She has agreed to come to marriage counseling whilst still having sex with the OM? How does she reconcile that?


When she went to visit him, "Just to see how he was doing; I was going to tell you about it that night", the situation at home became unbearable for her; between my constant blame shifting, name calling, and then complete 180's to "I don't really want a divorce". That's the tip of the iceberg.

She completely emotionally detached at that point and sought solace with him.

If the marriage counseling does no good for our marriage it may at least help us understand ourselves & each other better and what went wrong in the relationship.


----------



## azteca1986

I'm not sure how any kind of marriage counseling has a hope of succeeding, whilst she's still seeing the OM.

I wish you every success, mate.


----------



## Shaggy

Shes having sex with him and spending all free the when not taking care of the kids,

You are essentially the one sags cheating with when she goes to MC with you.

Wow! Sorry, but you are throwing good money away on MC in the hope that he will convince her not to be a cheater.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

HusbandFatherSelf said:


> The OM is now her primary partner; she says very clearly that she doesn't think she's capable of reconciling but I know her well enough to see the secret hope in her heart. A combination of three things are holding her back; The fog, her love for him which I stood by and let develop like an idiot, and her disbelief in the prospect of me changing.


 Sorry, it sounds like YOU are in the fog not her. To me, it sounds like she is doing counseling to make the split amicable. I'm basing this on "the secret hope in her heart you" SAW that was completely erroneous in your last thread.

Good luck. Once again, I hope I am wrong now that you really want a marriage with her.


----------



## tacoma

OP

Unless you go NC and a hard 180 she's gone.

She may be gone anyway but you'll never get her back this way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

You know HFS if this is what you want to do then do it.

But do it like no other because the odds are against you.

Pull out all the stops.

Find the best darn MC because you are going to do it.

I would also do one other thing that no one will expect.

If were you I would declare all out war on the OM.

I would make his personal life, public life and business life so miserable that the affair would be uncomfortable for both of them as well as anyone associated with them.

What do you really have to lose.

HM


----------



## HusbandFatherSelf

happyman64 said:


> Find the best darn MC...
> 
> ....declare all out war on the OM.
> 
> I would make his personal life, public life and business life so miserable that the affair would be uncomfortable for both of them as well as anyone associated with them.
> 
> What do you really have to lose.
> 
> HM


I've booked three consultations this coming Tuesday. One of them is VERY expensive, but the gentleman seems to be the most highly qualified individual I have found among the couple hundred I've searched. The other two are at least PhD's. I think having to explain the past couple years of our relationship to a trained psychiatrist will do us both some good.

I've considered the all out war approach. I don't think it is appropriate because much of this predicament was spun by my own foolishness. Wouldn't be hard for him to spin it as being the savior of an emotionally abused and neglected woman. In fact, if you left out the parts of the picture in which I was a good/loyal husband and father,that wouldn't be necessarily untrue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AVR1962

HusbandFatherSelf said:


> The OM is now her primary partner; she says very clearly that she doesn't think she's capable of reconciling but I know her well enough to see the secret hope in her heart. A combination of three things are holding her back; The fog, her love for him which I stood by and let develop like an idiot, and her disbelief in the prospect of me changing.
> 
> Throughout our relationship there have been considerable financial difficultys, sexual problems, substance abuse (mostly alcohol), and for the past couple years I have second guessed my love for her and simply been a poor partner. I'm not 100% to blame for all of this but I contributed more than my share.


I read your initial post about the open marriage and how it was not your wife's desire but yours. This all is history that your wife has endured and if she is smart she will not return. Funny how it takes something like this for people to open their eyes. Honestly, I don't see your wife returning and just wondering how you would treat her eventually if you did "win" her back. Seems to me for a matter of procession and hormones that you are dealing with in yourself. Sorry for my lack of compassion but I have already lived this life. I was once in your wife's shoes. We divorced 27 years ago, he never changed no matter how much he seemed to "discover" himself. We too had 2 small children who didn't deserve to have such a selfish father. I cannot even begin to imagine what life would have been if I stayed, it makes me sick to my stomach to think about.


----------



## the guy

All out war or not... shows you still care, you will always be there for her....she has no reason to change until she is good and ready.

Your old lady will come back and then she will go away again, then she will come back...over and over again...chicks dig confident guys that don't take sh1t, her respect for you goes away each time you tolorate sharing her with another man.

I went thru this crap for 13 years...it ain't the way to go!

been there done that...it don't work!

Boundries and consequences are the way, and if our chicks up to it she will respect that...if she ain't then...trust me she will never change until you change.


----------



## azteca1986

OP, I re-read your old thread. The story as you laid it out was

Your Version: You meet a girl. She asks for exclusivity. You decline. She has a couple of partners before you start dating again. You both cheat before you get married. At some point 'you' come up with the idea of an open marriage. Afterall this was your wife's thoughts



> "You're the only man for me; I can't even imagine being with another person".


The reality is that she didn't cheat on you twice with "John". It was more time than she can count.



> *She thought that the experience was good for her and that it would help her open up sexually. **I acquiesced* partly because I thought she was discovering herself more and also because the idea of an open marriage was appealing to me.*


After marriage and a few months ago, despite you specifically naming "John" as someone she should avoid, she just repeats her pre-marriage behaviour. She convinces you this is a good thing for her (though I don't think at this time you are aware of the extent of their past liaisons).




> When I suggested that they give it a try she expressed that it would be weird and a bad idea but *I could tell that she wanted it*. *One night the three of us were having a few drinks at his place and were winding down. **I could sense that she was hoping I would give them some space*. *I whispered that to her, and she expressed agreement, so I went home to clean the house for an hour or so and then came back to pick her up.
> 
> They both really enjoyed themselves and we talked about it a few days later and agreed that repeats would be ok as long as everyone was okay with it.


Then we come to the current episode with "James". Now, I know you feel you were greatly culpable in this whole situation (Yes, you played a major part), but I one observation:

Your wife has always done what she wants. She was a serial cheater with "John" before marriage. She sleeps with your friend "James" even when she knows it's greatly upsetting you. There the promise for his birthday, her moving out to fictitious friend "Zack".

I have my honest doubts how much 'you lead your wife astray'. When she repeatedly gets what she wants I'd say it was you who is the one being manipulated.

Today, when your wife tells you "She thinks her heart is too far gone" you aim to throw good money after bad in a futile effort to win her back through MC whilst she's still sleeping with the OM as soon as your kids are out the picture.

Your wife always does and gets what she wants.  I can't see that changing in the future. Sorry

When are you going to catch up to reality? She has never been monogamous. Spend your money on IC for yourself. Give her the inevitable divorce. MC is just a sop to let you down gently. I've never heard of it working in the circumstances you're both in. 

Look after yourself, friend.


----------



## HusbandFatherSelf

AVR1962 said:


> ....how it was not your wife's desire but yours.... We too had 2 small children who didn't deserve to have such a selfish father.......


I am changing. I will not live to see myself either lose her or repeat these same mistakes again with someone else. Indeed it is sad that it's taken such a tragic and extreme situation to wake me up.



azteca1986 said:


> ....I have my honest doubts how much 'you lead your wife astray'. When she repeatedly gets what she wants I'd say it was you who is the one being manipulated.
> 
> Your wife always does and gets what she wants.  I can't see that changing in the future. Sorry
> 
> When are you going to catch up to reality? She has never been monogamous. Spend your money on IC for yourself. Give her the inevitable divorce. MC is just a sop to let you down gently. I've never heard of it working in the circumstances you're both in.
> 
> Look after yourself, friend.


My WW was completely faithful for 5 years. Her "white lie" about the frequency of cheating prior to marriage was the face-saving, partner protecting, white lie of a 19 year old girl.

I can understand your conclusions based on what I've shared here, but perhaps I've painted the picture more in my favor than is completely honest in an attempt to gain sympathy and validation.

The WW that she now is, is significantly influenced by my own terrible behavior. I broke our marriage vow first! I didn't appreciate, respect, and love her as I should have. I'm the one who wounded her greatly with talking innumerable times about opening our marriage. I'm the one who extinguished her sexuality by trying to turn her into a convenient sex toy, housekeeper, and mother instead of respecting her as an equal partner and genuine person. I'm the one who couldn't look past my own insecurities.

I'm done with that. I will change and win her back or I will change and lose her. Either way, I will forever be haunted by my greedy, narcissistic, selfish actions.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Nope.

I see it differently than azteca. She wanted exclusivity, you did not. So, you all broke up, got back together, broke up got back together. In between those break ups you both "cheated." The cheating is the whole " you knew we were getting back together" blah blah blah I hear people spew.


----------



## happyman64

Instead of being haunted for the rest of your life instead why not work on being a honest man, wonderful father and loving husband.

And if she is so lost with her new love then wish her the best and let the door hit her on her @ss on her way out.......


----------



## Dyokemm

OP,

Yes. You created this situation with your foolish decisions.

But you are now letting your guilt allow her to continue HER sh***y choices in continuing this A with a POS, who is far from a knight in shining armor waiting to save her.

You actually have to take a hard line on this for BOTH of your best interests.

If she won't snap out of it when you present her with the D paperwork and begin to take the emotional steps (180) to separate from her, then there is no hope anyways.

You cannot fix this if she is still in the A with POS.

NO AMOUNT of 'nice' or apologizing (both of which are a result of your guilt) will work here.

You F'd up. You've apologized and taken steps to end the stupidity from your end that has almost destroyed your M.

Now it is time for her to do the same. She won't right now, and you being nice WILL NOT change this.

Only filing for D and showing her she is going to lose her life as she knows it will work.


----------



## HusbandFatherSelf

Well, something changed in me tonight.

When I got home from work around 11:00pm, I sat down with my WW and started filing out our consultation forms for our Tuesday appointments. I tried to have just a friendly conversation with her and invited her to talk about how she had been feeling the past few days. She was cold and angry and annoyed but I pressed her a bit; telling her I wish she could just show some semblance of friendliness and tact instead of acting constantly repulsed. 
I left for downtown to drop our car in my parking garage (strange arrangement; ref financial difficulties). On my way home the the comments here about the absurdity of attending marriage counseling while the affair is in more full swing than ever started to resonate with me. Her coldness and detachment tonight was also fresh on my mind so I came to the conclusion that I am absolutely, 100%, done with the situation as it is now. Continuing to put myself out there for her is too emotionally and physically taxing. 
So really there are two options for me; 1) Stay with her and try to work things out, including MC and IC & no contact on her part, but go back to cheater police/ completely open access to monitoring her, or 2) Contact our landlord and let him know we need to terminate our lease early and move out. 
Her options would be 1) Try my option 1, 2) Turn temporary-midterm custody of our children over to my parents; they're foster parents and keep the boys 30-40% of the time anyway, or 3) Take the boys and move back to her mother's home 700 miles away from here.
When I got home I laid that out on the table for her. She cried and screamed and slapped me a few times. Called a few names. I asked her if she had an option 4 for us because I am simply unwilling to continue with the way things are. She went silent. Had absolutely nothing to say about it. 
She swears that we'll talk about it tomorrow night when I get home from work. 
This time it's not a bluff like my last call for divorce was. I have a cheap room ten minutes walk from my work lined up for immediate move in.


----------



## LongWalk

Well, the new thread did not leave the beaten path. MC while WW is sleeping with OM is useless as MC, but can help hammer out divorce and coparenting. If your wife understands that divorce is coming her way soon, she may reevaluate the situation. 

She slapped you? Good and bad. Psycho rage? Did you absorb it with total restraint? At least she cares
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HusbandFatherSelf

The slapping didn't bother me at all and in spite of her pushing and slapping I made no aggressive gestures toward her. 

I'm on my way home right now. There were a few moments today in which I thought about waffling on the terms but I suppressed that and haven't changed my resolve. I'm apprehensive. So much hinges on what happens in the next hour. 

Thanks everyone for the support and advice.


----------



## LongWalk

Don't move out
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## azteca1986

HusbandFatherSelf said:


> *I asked her if she had an option 4 for us because I am simply unwilling to continue with the way things are. * She went silent. Had absolutely nothing to say about it.
> She swears that we'll talk about it tomorrow night when I get home from work.


Good move. It's not up to you to 'fix' this on your own. I hope she has something for you today (though no solution has to be found immediately). Stick to your position; things cannot go on as they are.

Her getting physical sounds like frustration to me. Of course it wouldn't happen in an ideal world, but then none of us live in one of those.


----------



## anchorwatch

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/24796-just-let-them-go.html


----------



## HusbandFatherSelf

When I got home last night my WW was significantly more engaging but not on board. She had spoken with her mother, brother, and mother-in-law earlier in the day and everyone was imploring her to try and make things work. I could tell they had struck a cord with her but that she was still not quite ready to let go of the OM. She apologized for how she acted so cruelly and selfishly during the the initial affair and subsequent reconciliation-turned-false-reconciliation; especially the past few weeks. She however would not acquiesces to my requirement for no contact with the OM and open access to her communication methods.

At that point I told her that I was leaving and turning temporary custody of our children over to my parents until one of us was in a position to properly care for them again. I started packing my bag. She really believed that I was just bluffing again. I wasn't.

When it really set in that I was finished and leaving she finally came around. She asked that I allow her to say goodbye to him in person. Obvious reservations on my part there. I'm allowing it though. We talked about having me there, or having her record the conversation, or her phone in her back pocket with me on the other end. I settled on just trusting her to recount the conversation to me later. She swore on the lives of our children that she would be completely honest and forthright about it. I suppose now is a good a time as any to start rebuilding trust.

This morning I sat her down and explained to her that if she is doing this because she feels backed into a corner or manipulated that I didn't want her to follow through with the decision. That it really isn't the worst idea to turn the boys over to my parents for a few months while we go our separate ways and prepare a life of some normalcy for them through a divorce.

She explained that while she did feel cornered, that she understood why I was drawing the line in the sand, and that she had made up her mind in favor of trying to reconcile. That she wasn't sure she would ever be able to love me again (acknowledging guilt on both sides) but that we owed it to our selves, family, and children to make a serious effort.

So this is attempted reconciliation #2.

The first was amazing for the first few days. The sense of closeness and intimacy was something we hadn't know for years. But a few days in, I got angry and spiteful when she wasn't feeling up to sex and it was all down hill from there.

This time around, the attempt at reconciliation is totally different. Instead of me feeling like my WW owes me a debt of unconditional love and surrender for having put me through the emotional pain of an affair, we are going into it as two damaged people completely acknowledging the extent of the damage in our relationship.

OM is cut out. MC and IC will begin next week. Here's to hoping for the best but not being afraid to stand up to the worst.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

You two had another DDa, you haven't truly attempted reconciliation. As long as you say okay to contact, with the other man, you have NEVER truly started one attempt let alone saying this is attempt number 2.


----------



## HusbandFatherSelf

DD? 

She said she needed to close the relationship with him before reopening ours. Remember, I'm the one who made the divorce demands and became VERY angry, spiteful, and cruel. That at that point she detached from me and bonded to him is no mystery. I said that he became her primary partner; more accurate would have been exclusive partner. We had had the talk; we were technically separated. 

Zero contact & total transparency has been agreed to. Granted, that was the arrangement last time and we know how that turned out.

This time I feel like it's more a of a choice that she is making; less her going along with my demand.

Considering it was only a few days ago that she insisted that her heart was too far gone, that it was his now, and that there was no hope of reconciling, I'm not going to make much of their goodbye. After all, it's not like I'm oblivious to the depth of their relationship. He was talking about step-fatherhood, they were making plans to get into a larger space so there would be room for the kids. A few weeks ago when he found out that I had been looking into getting the contact information for his parents he made a preemptive call to his mother to explain that he was unapologetic about being involved in a serious relationship with a married woman and had already spoken to his father about it.

This is a relationship that I stood by and watched develop and didn't have the common sense to put a stop to before everyone's hearts got so tied up in it. He's genuinely hurt and she's genuinely hurting for having to let him go. She didn't want to explain her decision in a phone call after giving him the impression that they were in it for the long haul.

I can understand and not begrudge her that.


----------



## Boricha

This will never work. Financial insecurity, alcoholism, infidelity from both of you....when does the list stop?

Your "wife" is not "wife" material. Her disdain for you shows through her actions. Isn't it obvious that she is not sexually attracted to you? She does not respect you. She might end it with the OM but there will sure enough be another one to take his place.

She's coming back to a false reconciliation so that she has time to regroup, get what she can out of it...come up with her future plans which does not include you.

Both of you need to get STD testing. When will you stop this madness, stop begging, and let her worthless azzz go?


----------



## Cdelta02

Any update?


----------



## HusbandFatherSelf

We had our first session yesterday. Trying to set up another one for next week.

We have zero intimacy. No hugging, no kissing, no sex. We feel like strangers.

She has maintained no contact but continues to tell me that she loves him and doesn't love me anymore. Continues to say that she doesn't think she will come around; that she is willing to try but needs space right now.

I've read the MAP and MMSLP lately. Our therapist wants us to read "Hold Me Tight", which I'm a couple chapters into.


----------



## azteca1986

How's it going, HFS? 

Is counselling helping you both?


----------



## HusbandFatherSelf

I'm not sure how to take the situation we are currently in. MC has been a positive experience so far but I sometimes feel like it's attempting to put out a bonfire with a toy water gun. It's interesting to hear her side of things during the sessions. 

As expert as we were at rug sweeping our problems, we now at least address them to some extent and we're trying to get the most negative issues under control; mostly our financial situation. 

The W still hasn't been able to be intimate or express affection since the D demands and cruelty on my part and there have been a couple incidents where I sort of fell off the wagon; i.e. instead of taking this in stride and accepting her presence and lack of contact with the OM as her making an effort, I feel like a cuckold and harass her because I'm angry.

It's difficult to not feel like the situation is completely hopeless but I see flashes of the connection we used to have now and again.

We went on a family camping trip for a night a couple days ago and that was a true pleasure. W feels much more at ease when we are together as a family but struggles to feel comfortable when it's just her and I. 

It's easy to think that I'm just being strung along for the convenience, that she's simply not attracted to me anymore, and that she is not really trying and work things out. I'm focusing on being patient and kind in case that impression of mine is a self-preservation reaction. It's just difficult to remain emotionally vulnerable and put myself out there when my gut tells me to run but my heart tells me to hold on tight. 

I just have to remind myself that I've been a bit of a bipolar nightmare through all of this and that continuing to switch between loving comfort and desperate anger isn't doing me any favors in demonstration of spousal fitness.


----------



## happyman64

HSF

You have to get the angry outbursts under control.

They only will set both of you back.

Find a place to release the anger.

Patience.

HM


----------



## 6301

I'm sorry but this is not a marriage and it's a joke to think so. You let the genie out of the bottle and it ran away and now you can't put it back. She has done what you told her to do and with your blessings and now that it went from a rain shower to a full blown hurricane, it's too late. 

What did you think was going to happen when you leave her with some guy and in so many words tell them "Have fun kids". 

She liked what freedom you gave her and maybe went out of bounds with it but you are the one who gave the thumbs up on it.

Cut your losses and be done with it. This is a mistake that can't be corrected IMHO.


----------



## LongWalk

Read Bagdon's thread

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## vellocet

HFS, I'm sorry, but it sounds as if your cheating wife has you wrapped around her finger and she knows that she calls the shots.
That's what this sounds like to me. She even has you saying here in this forum that you are trying to "win her back".

Whatever you do, don't let her walk all over you and gaslight you into thinking this is your fault. Because that is how it is sounding to me.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

You should talk to your IC about co dependency. You seem to take the blame for EVERYTHING. While I agree you need to get your outbursts under control, I wonder if they are normal reactions. Go read the stages, anger is one of them. The fact she is good one day and detached the next makes your "bipolar" comment ironic. It also goes back to you accepting more blame. Yes, part of this situation is your fault, but BOTH of you need to fix it and you can't accept 100% of the blame anymore.

It's weird because you downplay everything she is doing wrong and then make your problems seem like a Nuclear Bomb has dropped.


----------



## LongWalk

Agree with Philly.
If at times in your marriage you have all over the place, now you have to consistent.

The complete lack of intimacy is a deal breaker. You must become attractive to her. Did you read Bagdon?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## HusbandFatherSelf

6301 said:


> I'm sorry but this is not a marriage and it's a joke to think so. You let the genie out of the bottle and it ran away and now you can't put it back. She has done what you told her to do and with your blessings and now that it went from a rain shower to a full blown hurricane, it's too late.
> 
> What did you think was going to happen when you leave her with some guy and in so many words tell them "Have fun kids".
> 
> She liked what freedom you gave her and maybe went out of bounds with it but you are the one who gave the thumbs up on it.
> 
> Cut your losses and be done with it. This is a mistake that can't be corrected IMHO.


You may very well be spot on. The situation might be completely hopeless. I feel, though, that I am doing the right thing by trying to put the genie back in the bottle. It might not be possible and I may be deluding myself when I think that I still sense her desire to repair our marriage. I think she is trying and as long as she is and I still feel this irresistible attraction and love for her, I will stick around. 




LongWalk said:


> Read Bagdon's thread
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


I started into it. Very lengthy indeed. Pulled a few nuggets from it. Will go back for more later.



vellocet said:


> HFS, I'm sorry, but it sounds as if your cheating wife has you wrapped around her finger and she knows that she calls the shots.
> That's what this sounds like to me. She even has you saying here in this forum that you are trying to "win her back".
> 
> Whatever you do, don't let her walk all over you and gaslight you into thinking this is your fault. Because that is how it is sounding to me.


Well I am trying to win her back. I made the divorce demands; she checked out and came to terms with it and then I realized what a mistake I was making. I may not have gone into much detail here on TAM regarding how I was cruel and spiteful after her breaking the no contact agreement, and I won't, but trust me; I'm lucky she's around right now.

And it may seem from my posts that she's twisted this whole affair into being my fault, and that may be my impression sometimes, but when I think over the details of our interactions over the past few weeks, it is very clear that she willingly shoulders her portion of fault and is genuinely sorry for the way she has handled herself. 

I think a major impediment to our reconciliation over the past month has been that I've pursued it in the wrong way in may respects; being needy, beta, bipolar ect.... but I am learning from my mistakes very quickly and I'll see where this takes us.



phillybeffandswiss said:


> You should talk to your IC about co dependency. You seem to take the blame for EVERYTHING. While I agree you need to get your outbursts under control, I wonder if they are normal reactions. Go read the stages, anger is one of them. The fact she is good one day and detached the next makes your "bipolar" comment ironic. It also goes back to you accepting more blame. Yes, part of this situation is your fault, but BOTH of you need to fix it and you can't accept 100% of the blame anymore.
> 
> It's weird because you downplay everything she is doing wrong and then make your problems seem like a Nuclear Bomb has dropped.


I had a psych evaluation a couple days ago and am now officially clinically diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder. There was actually an episode in my late teens where my mania was so severe that it led to an extended psychosis.

I feel like we are both trying to fix it. Especially the past few days I've noticed her efforts more and more. There has also been a marked decrease in my mood swings and we've made some good progress in MC. 



LongWalk said:


> Agree with Philly.
> If at times in your marriage you have all over the place, now you have to consistent.
> 
> The complete lack of intimacy is a deal breaker. You must become attractive to her. Did you read Bagdon?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Indeed consistency is very important right now. The intimacy issue is a deal breaker in the long term but I'm comfortable with where we are right now. Just this afternoon I had a bit of a headache and asked her to massage my temples for a moment. She obliged and actually gave me a five minute head rub that was incredibly relaxing.

About a month ago up until about a week ago I really was not giving her enough space (read: any space). I was completely emotionally beholden to her and I definitely manifesting the textbook definition of clingy/codependent/needy. I was constantly pushing and prodding her to re-engage. 

I'm feeling myself able to move away from that now and starting to regain my confidence and center. That being the case, with that move, she has been able to get a little bit closer to me because she feels more comfortable. 

So, while I see promising signs and things seem to be improving, I also feel myself better coming to terms with the possibility that it's over and that is a liberating feeling. Not because I, by any means, want it to be over, but because I would rather see her happy than stuck in a marriage "for the kids"; which is the impression I get when she is at one end of her spectrum. 

She's told me many times over the past few months "I don't want to hurt you" - and obviously the underlying insult there is a bit frustrating but I don't think she really understand that I will be perfectly fine without her. That I love her now more than ever (tragedy and hardship have spurred much very-productive self examination) and that I believe we owe it to each other and our children to grow from this and find happiness and stability again. 

I'm done manipulating, begging, grovelling, and harassing her about it. I'm picking myself up and moving forward. If she wants to keep her wagon hitched to mine, I'm more than all for it, I'll be elated. If she doesn't, I'm okay with that too.


----------



## manfromlamancha

You seem to be gradually healing yourself which I think you now know is the single most important thing you can do. Getting rid of the neediness, begging etc is the right thing to do - for your healing! As for the rest, you are now starting to handle it right too. Letting her know where things went wrong and accepting your share of the blame is also the right thing to do - but only if she does the same! And being able and strong to move forward no matter what the outcome is brilliant and you are getting there. Keep it up!


----------



## HusbandFatherSelf

Well scratch the possibility of reconciliation in this marriage. Found out the night before last that no-contact has been a naive illusion on my part. She was "working late" so I zipped over to her work only to find it closed. Went from there over to the OM's place and waited outside until she walked out. 

Later that night she says "I'm sorry I hurt you this way and that you were not enough for me." 

So that's that. Time to move on. 

I am not sure how to resolve our living situation ect. My thought was to move out to my parents home where the boys currently stay weekends anyway, but my parents have 5 foster children and that arrangement will not work for them. 

Really, the only acceptable arrangement I can think of is to continue the birds-nest custody that we discussed previously. I work 60+ hours per week and simply am unable to go the single-parent route. I would only be able to see my boys 2 days a week and that would make custody ~60/40 in my favor when taking into account that they spend 2.5 days a week with their grandparents. Still, that would result in a hefty child support payment in her favor.

My focus now needs to be on taking care of my children and working on myself. Must get this "nice guy syndrome" under control and provide a stable environment for the boys.


----------



## azteca1986

Sorry to hear your latest update AGfP. 



HusbandFatherSelf said:


> WeLater that night she says "I'm sorry I hurt you this way and that you were not enough for me."


What a purposely hurtful thing to say.

But remember this: She is the same woman who had sex "More times than she can count" with another man before you were even married. You alone were never enough for her. She's no innocent here.

Your new priorities are correct; yourself and your children.

Work on yourself. Look at the many, many fathers on here on TAM that were dropped in a similar situation to you, worked on themselves and came back better and stronger.

A better future awaits you and your children if you put the effort in. Keep your resolve and, please, keep posting. We'd like to help you through this.


----------



## happyman64

HFS



> Later that night she says "I'm sorry I hurt you this way and that you were not enough for me."


I am sure you are very hurt but I want to give you a gentle kick in your balls.

You should have stopped her right there after she said this to you and said this

"I am sorry you were not enough for me, but thank you for showing me the real you. I will never make the same mistake now that I know who and what you really are.."

Go find a real woman. Go date her right in front of your STBXW's face.

But what you should really do is leave her in your dust and never look back. Do it for you and your kids. You all deserve better.

HM


----------



## HusbandFatherSelf

I can't begin to express how thankful I am for all of the advice and information I've received here in the TAM forum. You all had been a great source of support. 

I feel very relieved about letting go of my toxic marriage and beginning a new life. I'll definitely not disappear and keep everyone posted regarding how this plays out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HusbandFatherSelf

Well, tonight is night number two where I come home, STBXW and I chat a few moments about practical things, and then she's off to spend the night with the OM. If I need to be at work in the morning she comes home around 7am, if not, the boys are mine. 

The panicked feeling that I get, first from her original walk-out's and then later when she would leave to be w/OM (while I was trying to convince her to at least divorce gracefully and with some class) has subsided. I'm feeling entirely indifferent to her behavior as it relates to me. My my, it feels good to let go. 

The owner of the company I work for, who is also a bit of a mentor to me and whom with I've had some conversations regarding my marital predicament, thinks that it will only be a few months until the STBXW comes back apologetic and ready to try to repair the marriage. And, that when she does, he thinks I will not take her back. I think he's wrong on the first point and somewhat inconsequentially right on the second; I believe her and the OM will actually be happy together for many years. 

On a side note: The positive energy of the past couple days has spilled over into everything. I've gone the entire day without a cigarette! (I've smoked anywhere from 1/2 to a full pack a day for the past couple years and it's time to quit; for my boys and for my health!)

I almost feel bad for the STBXW. I sense her sadness of being found out and being emotionally let go of. Part of me is completely apathetic to her plight (the part that now looks over the way she has treated me over the years without the rose colored glasses) and then another part that just feels a genuine sadness. Sadness for my boys; their now being relegated to an existence where the marriage that brought them into the world is being dissolved. Sadness that, in spite of my being completely willing to shoulder my share (and then some) of the responsibility for the poor condition of our marriage and my total willingness to forgive her affair, she still didn't have to courage to honor her family over some new-found infatuation.

I suppose it's all for the best; better to have found out the true nature of her character sooner rather than later. 

I've also come face to face with plenty of my own daemons these past few months. Facing them and being the best father I can be is my new task at hand. As fun as it sounds to find someone wonderful to date right in front of my STBXW's face, I'm going to hunker down on me and mine for a while and re-learn selfishness as a virtue.


----------



## tainted

Time to post her and the POSOM on cheaterville.


----------



## happyman64

Continue to detach.

Get her out of your life as best you can.

Then replace her.

Cheaters rarely succeed in the long term.

But you will succeed.

Focus on you and your boys. The right woman will come along and be better in so many ways than the selfish woman that just walked out your door.

And quit that habit for good.

See you are kicking two bad habits right now. Kudos to you.

HM64


----------



## cdbaker

I'm sooo sorry to hear about everything you've gone through, and agree with others that it's great that you've been able to stop and see how your own actions attributed to the mess.

I'll say that I agree with your boss however. From what I have come to understand, both from reading on the subject and personal experience, the relationships that result from adulterous affairs have an incredibly low rate of long term success. These relationships are born from a fantasyland. Meaning for the duration of the affair the couple really only see's each other for private physical activity, and then parts. Can't date publicly or risk getting caught, no "real life" stuff to deal with like changing diapers, paying bills, doing chores, etc. It goes from 100% fun to trying to find a way to build a relationship with only about 5-20% of the time/money being available for fun, at best, and with lots of effort and no kinky/naughty motivators to make that happen.

So yeah I imagine at some point in the future they will break up in one way or another and her first gut reaction will be (depending on how long it's been or what the status of your relationship with her is) to look you up, give you a call, send you a text, etc. When I stop to think about it, that is sort of what happened to me, and yes I got a very tearful phone call and a request to come over to see me right away.

Maybe you'll be open to seeing/talking to her, maybe you won't, but either way I suspect you'll be in a far better off place then than you were last month.


----------



## azteca1986

So many positives in your last post HFS


----------



## HusbandFatherSelf

None of us are clairvoyant. I like to think that the circumstances of her affair (after being "harassed" for an open marriage, now being with a guy who couldn't understand how she wasn't enough for me, yadda yadda) might lend themselves to success for them. I wouldn't take a bet either way. 

Today I opened a separate bank account and changed the password to all of my email and social media accounts.

Haven't heard a word from the STBXW and haven't had a moments inclination to contact her.

Haven't had a cigarette in two days; starting to feel a little bit irritable.

Took the boys out to Five Guys after picking the eldest up from school; then trekked across town to buy a children's book.

Good day.


----------



## azteca1986

Good stuff. 

The first two weeks are the hardest. Once you get past that, a little tip:

If someone asks you if you smoke, you don't say "I've given up" or somesuch, you say "I'm a non-smoker". It helps.


----------



## happyman64

HfS

Do the kids ask you where the mother is?

Do they ask her where she goes?

HM


----------



## HusbandFatherSelf

Our older son has been told by the STBXW that we aren't together anymore. I discovered this while walking him to school. 

The boys are accustom to weekends with their grandparents and only seeing me occasionally. A bit more of me and less of her shouldn't break much from their current routine. They both have remarkably gently temperaments and should cope well with the situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

