# Still no sex life 2 years after first kid



## Cushion (Jun 3, 2017)

Hi everyone,

I will try not to turn this into a novel, but for anyone who takes the time to read this and try to help... thank you.

My Wife and I were together 5 years before we had the first kid. We used to have sex 4 or more times a week, and it was great. Obviously when the kid was born, sex drives were put aside and we have great fun bringing up our son. But it has been almost 2 years now and we have had sex twice, and I am starting to find the lack of intimacy really difficult. Those two times, she was saying that was great, didn't hurt, we need to try more positions, lets do this and of course my sex drive instantly was back with much optimism... but nothing ever happened.

I have talked to her about it before, and she said that I need to be more romantic. And so for months now I have been making that effort... love notes in her lunch box, flowers, gifts, meals out. I even get my hair cut more regularly, keep shaved and even got my eye brows done and I felt and (thought I) looked great... but nothing. Every time I try its just an instant 'no' and thats that!

Im not pestering her, every now and again ill try it on. Ive tried been sensual, funny, blunt and any other way you can think of to try and get her in the mood, but nothing works.

I am at a loss. I work allot running my own business and my wife is back at work 4 times a week. I make sure I'm back to help with supper, bath, and bed of the kid every day (he sleep from 6:30pm to 7am every day since about 9 months old). I walk the dogs in my lunch breaks, keep the house tidy and clean, do the rubbish and bills, the washing up every day. My wife once the kid is in bed, just sits on the sofa on her phone. Sometimes she says she feels like she has no time for me after the kid, but we are sharing everything, infact I'm doing so much more to keep things running.


So here I am asking for help. How do I help my wife get her drive back? Not just her sex drive but the drive for life she used to have. I am so sexually frustrated its unreal... i have been masturbating everyday for months now, and I'm bored of it. Im 35 with the sex drive of a 21 year old, masturbation keeps my constant erections out the way, but its not enough. I am just craving intimacy with my wife, I just want to make love to her!

She is absolutely gorgeous, still has her incredible figure, i give her compliments all the time and I'm not doing this just because I want some, I have always done it. But she won't even try, I have offered massages with no strings attached to help her relax, I have said I will go down her to see if that help her hornyness. I have asked if she could maybe just give me a hand job / blow job anything to help with my frustration.... but nothing is ever given more than no.

Any suggestions, especially from wives that may have been feeling the same, husbands who have been in the same position?

I don't expect her to just give me her body. I want to have fun with her again.

Thank you all.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

You have come to the right place. Provided you listen and act on advice given. Any time now someone, more qualified than I, will be delivering it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

It's really shocking how becoming a parent just completely kills a woman's sex drive. 

It sounds as if you are doing all the right things to entice, relax, and get her in the mood. What you haven't mentioned yet are the conversations you two have had regarding the lack of sex. She asked for you to be more romantic and you responded appropriately. But you need to dig deeper because what's going on now started with sex but now it's a bit bigger than just sex. Don't misunderstand, sex itself is big enough, important enough all on its own.

You two are young and what you're currently going through is so common it's nearly a rite of passage. What young couples need to know about this stage is that if not given effort by both spouses this stage will endure for many years to come, with possibly short breaks to have another baby.

This needs to be an on going conversation because a marriage without sex is unsustainable.

1. How does you wife feel about her no longer desiring sex with you?
2. Does your wife talk openly about sex? Comfortable with the topic?
3. What does your wife imagine when she imagines a great marriage? Is sex a part of that marriage?
4. Does she feel like there are things she should do, or be doing, in order to bring back an active sex life?
5. Does she feel the need to control sex? 
6. Why does she feel that ignoring your need for sex is okay? If she didn't want to have penetrative sex, or didn't want to be sexually touched, why does that mean that you have to forgo any sexual touching?
7. What steps has she taken to improve her sex drive?

While she comes up with her insights I suggest you two agree that once the baby is asleep, all electronics are off and you two focus only on each other. No TV, no phones, no web searching. Pretend the electricity is out for two hours each night.

Bed time routine for baby should done together. Both of you bathe him, both of you rock him, etc. you are a team, not a tag team.

None of these things will improve your sex life immediately, but they will start the process.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

You need to sit her down and talk about this directly. She needs to understand the long-term consequences of removing intimacy from a marriage. She needs to know that her inability to express love physically for you is driving a wedge between you. You're starting to question the depth of her love for you and you're beginning to feel like you cannot rely on her as a partner. 

My wife's turnaround came, ironically, on the day that I told her I was giving up on ever having a physical relationship with her again. I told her we'd stay married, but she'd made it clear to me that I wasn't attractive or interesting to her. At that point, I just wanted to know what was wrong with me. As my friend, she at least owed me a reason, just so I could finally sleep more than 4 hours a night wondering why. 

To be blunt, a lot of women use the sex spigot as a means of controlling their partner. I'm not even sure they're aware they're doing it--it just comes naturally. They dole out sex like a reward, withhold it when they're resentful. You can reassert your control of the situation by removing this component--letting her know that you're moving away from reliance on her ability to engage in an intimate, normal marriage. The day she sees you as someone who can function independently without her might be the day that she finds a new dose of respect for you. A rekindling of her desire for you might naturally follow. 

Lay off the compliments--it only serves to reinforce that she's doing everything just fine. No more offers for one-way sexual pleasure. You should consider spending more time away from her. When she chooses to sit on the sofa and look at her phone, you can go out shopping, to the movies, or to the gym. Divvy up the time slots that each of you will be responsible for the kids, so there can be no manipulative claims that you're not pulling your weight (you clearly are).


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

I'll be perfectly honest. She had a child and no sex for two years!!! This is total BS. Making excuses for her won't get you much. No matter how you slice it or dice it this isn't normal in any way.

It's great trying to nice her, etc but it got you nothing. 

You don't have a marriage sport. Is this how you want to live your life?

I sure as hell wouldn't. Better sit her down and have a real strong to the point talk. Unless you like living like a celibate eunuch. Which is where you are at this time.

Why????


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You've spent two years being the understanding Mr Nice Guy doormat. 

What did you get out of it?


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

This is not going to improve by trying to talk about the issue when you're actually trying to have sex. You need to have a clear, calm and direct conversation about the problem. Don't allow the conversation to drift, meet every attempt to distract and deflect by going right back to the issue of your sex life. The goal is to find out what her true feelings are about the lack of physical intimacy. If it turns into a laundry list of all the things you need to do before she can be "in the mood" you'll end up chasing a moving goal post. Be particularly aware of accusations that you are an animal or that "sex is all you think about" as these statements are designed to shame you, diminish your needs and put you on the defensive. Stay on topic. A sexless marriage is not acceptable to you and you need to know if she is willing to work on improving the situation. 

Accept this fact: One person can say no but it takes two to say yes. If she doesn't recognize the situation as a problem, you'll be wasting your time to try changing it by yourself.


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## Remee81 (May 24, 2017)

I agree with the above comments. Talk with her, don't let the conversation stray or let u take the blame. Stay on track. If this doesn't get u anywhere, I would suggest counseling because I can't stay in a sexless marriage and be happy. U love her, u want her, but u feel as if she doesn't feel the same about u. I both help with the child so she isn't doing everything so that's not an excuse. Don't just stay living like this or your marriage will end, and I know u don't want that. A child is a stress on a relationship but not working on any issues is signing a death warrant to the marriage. U stepped up, she hasn't, tell her all the things I have done to help put the spark back and now she needs to make the effort too. Counseling may be the answer here so she can hear it from someone else too


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

What was your sex life like before kids? Did the sex stop when she got pregnant, or after your child was born?


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

She's in marriage-killing mom mode.

The good news is she's at least back at work and contributing financially and having contact with the adult world outside of kids and mommies.

You have a few things you can do:
-leadership in dragging her to non-mom non-kids events and activities. Look for upcoming concerts, new restaurants, summer festivals, etc that you would both be interested. Take the lead role in confirming her calendar is free, buying the tickets, hiring the babysitter, etc. Do this repeatedly, not as surprises, and with no expectation in your head of sex at the end of the night. When she balks at going out without the kids, firmly state that you really want to go to the event, that you two need nights out without the kids, etc. 

Also go do your own thing sometimes to be the interesting person you used to be before you gave it up to be a dad. 

If she just flat out refuses to go out on dates with you, go yourself without her a few times, and she if she changes her mind. 

If she absolutely refuses to ever get childcare and go on dates with you outside of the house without kids, you have a relationship problem bigger then just a lack of sex.


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## Cushion (Jun 3, 2017)

Thank you all so much for the replies. Im actually quite overwhelmed by how helpful you have been, most forums always have those guys that are just like 'man up' and stuff, but I so grateful for all your help.

I have lots to digest there, but I think I need to talk her again but be much more straight up and harder on her than before. Get some straight answers.

We seam to find it abit difficult to talk about sex related stuff. I believe it comes from, way back when we met, the fact that she did not want to talk / find out about my sexual past, and been the gent I didnt ask her about hers. I have asked her 'can we try this or that' in bed and she always said yes, but then would never actually do it, she would just say 'no' mid sex when i tried to switch positions.

I have a horrible feeling there maybe something underlying with her. In the sense that, also since the kid, she now never says 'i love you' first. Only if I say it. When I go out or come back I like to give her a kiss and ask about her day, but most the time she won't even look at me or raise her head to give the kiss. And rarely asks about my day.


Its all getting quite soul destroying for me. Before we had the first kid, we talked about if we would like more than one, and we both did. She has brought up that she may be ready for number 2 soon, which is great, sex right?!?! But I'm more worried than excited. Yes i would love a big family with her, and I feel a right idiot for letting sex get in the way... but i just need a little bit of loving! With number 2, if I'm getting none now, then i don't stand a chance ever again.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

No!!!!! Do not have another child with this woman. If she can't figure out that sex is important in a marriage do you really want to believe in this position for the next 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 years?

Don't think it can't happen.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Cushion said:


> Thank you all so much for the replies. Im actually quite overwhelmed by how helpful you have been, most forums always have those guys that are just like 'man up' and stuff, but I so grateful for all your help.
> 
> I have lots to digest there, but I think I need to talk her again but be much more straight up and harder on her than before. Get some straight answers.
> 
> ...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

NO!!!!!!

Absolutely do NOT even discuss having another child! 

If you fall for this, you will basically never have sex again. 

Yes, all couples will have a slump in their sex life after Baby comes along. 

But having sex twice in two years is sign and symptom of a much deeper and more critical problem. 

If she cons you into having another child, you may be tempted because it would mean having sex again, but that will be procreation sex and the moment her home pregnancy test turns positive, she will be like Lucy pulling the football out from under Charlie Brown and now you will have a screaming/pooping/puking baby and a toddler getting into everything on your hands. 

You will seriously be living a life of celibacy forever after that. 

This is a serious situation and another child will add another layer of complexity, expense and an absolute minimum of another few years of sexless marriage to your situation. 

Don't even consider it and don't even be drawn into a discussion about it. 

If she even mentions another child, just bluntly and matter-of-factly and without emotion or whining or complaint, inform her that there will be no discussion of any more children until your marital situation has been addressed and corrected for period of years. 

Bring more children into a situation where divorce is a very real possibility and a very valid option is asinine. No discussion.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

What ethnicity / culture are you two from?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Now as far as what to do about it, this gets a little more labor intensive. 

My first recommendation is to get the books and check out the blogs and material by Athol Kay in his "Married Man Sex Life" literature. 

The fact she does not have any lingering physical impairments, no mention of any other significant medical or relationship issues and the fact that the two times you did have sex, she seemed to enjoy it, that leave two possibilities. 

- one is she is involved with someone else and her needs are getting met elsewhere. 

- the other is she has lost sexual attraction/desire for you and has lost respect for you as a man. You have basically become a "Husband Appliance" that brings home money, fixes household items that break, helps with child care and kills spiders. 

You have become a beta provider. 

I don't mean that as an insult or put down and it is actually a critical component of a marriage and family unit to do those things. 

But you have lost your edge as a masculine male and a lover. You need to get back your masculinity and mojo.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

First order of business is to do a sincere and honest investigation into whether she is getting it elsewhere. 

I know this seems unthinkable to you as you likely see her as a Madonna that doesn't have any carnal desires of her own and is a completely asexual, baby-tending mother. 

Trust me, there are countless husbands who think their wives are completely sexless, devoted mothers who have zero sexual desire and then find out that they are having hot, wild, monkey sex that would make porn stars blush.....only they are having it with other men. 

In my mid-late 20s I had a series of flings with a number of married women. One came to my house several times during her pregnancy and was knocking on my door about the day that the OB-Gyn doctor gave her the green light to resume sexual activity again. She and her husband likely never had sex again after that and they were divorced a couple years later (I was not on the scene any more when they divorced) and she moved on to other men. 

My point is her husband likely thought she had no interest in sex any more. She was. She was having nasty porno sex every couple weeks - just not with him. 

So before you brush off that idea, do an honest search for evidence. DO NOT ASK HER. She will just say no and then bury the evidence deeper. 

Get into her emails, social media, iPhone etc. obviously look for conversations with other men but also read any conversations with her girlfriends or close sister or cousin etc. There is always at least one girlfriend that a cheating wife will confide in and talk about how hot of a lover the other man is. 

Get records from her phone provider and look for calls and texts that she may be deleting. 

And perhaps the biggest smoking gun detector of all is get a voice-activated-recorder (VAR) and hide in her car and any other place that she might be having secret conversations. 

The thing is if she is having an affair(s), nothing else in the world that you can do such as marital counseling, heart-to-heart talks, threats, etc etc will have any effect as long as she is getting her jollies from some other dude. 

You have to completing and honestly investigate that possibility and eliminate it before you can move on and address other issues.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Now in regards to getting your manhood and mojo back, my recommendation is get the "Married Man Sex Life" books by Athol Kay and follow those algorythms. 
The basic format is that you hit the gym like it is the cure for cancer, world hunger and lost puppies all rolled into one and start dressing sharper, grooming and styling immaculately etc and start taking charge of your personal and professional life stronger and become a man that women are attracted to in general. 

Don't do this at the expense of neglecting your home and family. Start kicking home and family life in the @$$ too. Be the Bomb in all things. 

Then basically when you get to the point you could walk out the door and replace her with another woman that is as good looking and decent as her, but that desires you - then you give her the option of stepping up to the plate and taking care of you as a man; or watching you move on with someone else and she gets to have a divorce settlement and split the time with her child with you 50% of the time. 

You basically have to be ready, willing and able to blow up your marriage in order to save it. 

And it may take something that dramatic and traumatic in order for her to wake up and smell the coffee. 

I know that doesn't sound warm and comfy and convenient. But many times this is exactly what it takes to break someone out of Mommie Mode and realize that a healthy, adult male is not going to sit around changing diapers and cleaning up puke day in and day out indefinitely and live a celibate lifestyle forever.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

and finally, another thing I would urge you to start doing right now today is lay off the porn and stop spanking. 

I'm not a religious nut and I do love me some good XXX flicks so this is not about a morality or feminist issue. it is purely practical. 

Spanking to porn makes your inner subconscious think that you are sexually active. Getting a good orgasm releases a bunch of feel-good and relaxing hormones and takes the edge off and makes content to just sit there chilling and not doing anything. 

...and as you have noted, it makes it so you aren't walking around with an erection and wanting to stick it into someone all the time. 

Masculine, sexually virile men are edgy and assertive...even aggressive. They aren't relaxed and content. They aren't happy sitting around changing diapers and cleaning up puke. They are on the hunt. 

... and women can sense that and respond to them sexually. I'm sorry, I know that no mother or grandmother wants to hear that, but it is the reality. 

Stop spanking and let the tension and pressure build. It won't be comfortable. It will make you edgy and jumpy. 

But it will also motivate you. It will make you get off the couch and do things. It will make you want to go to the gym and burn off energy. That in turn will burn off the belly fat and give you some biceps and will fill out your shirts better. 

The tension and pressure will also start making you more assertive and willing to take initiative and make things happen. It will make you take more risks and willing to risk rejection. 

It will make you more assertive and initiative with your wife. 

She may respond positively to it and she may become more sexually responsive and you may start having sex more. 

But she surely push back more as well. 

As the tension and pressure build, you will respond to that by either trying harder and push through her shields. Or it might make you realize if it is futile and it will motivate you to move on to greener and more fertile pastures. 

if you have a full tank, you aren't going to be willing to settle for breadcrumbs and empty promises. You'll only take so much crap and only take so much rejection before you take the bull by the horns and do something about it. 

Spanking every day makes you a compliant, asexual eunuch and perfect little Mommies Helper that settles for being allowed to give Mommy a foot rub at the end of the day. 

Having a full tank will make you assertive and edgy and give you initiative


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

You're like me, OP. Pop culture taught you that women would love you all the more if you were the guy who waited patiently, respecting her need for chastity without questioning her reasons. It works that way on TV and in movies. The nice guy is rewarded with true love and the intimacy that follows. All this time, you figured that being patient would get you somewhere. In fact, you thought she'd love you all the more if you showed her just how patient, kind, and understanding you were. Then, when she was finally ready, she'd give herself to you even more willingly, because she saw what a great guy you were. That's what I thought too.

Real life doesn't work that way, and I'm frankly pissed at my culture for leading me to believe that myth. She's not going to come to you on her own. She's content to live the rest of her life never having sex with you again. She needs to respect you and fear losing you for her desire to come back naturally. 

And as ugly as it is, I'd agree with the other posters that you should start investigating the possibility that she's having an affair. You know your wife better than we do, and we're probably wrong, but it's something you want to consider. The most likely candidate is a superior at her new job--possibly her direct boss or a boss at a higher level. Women have tremendous respect for men in power and often look to please them in ways other than just hard work.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I'm all for "upping your sex rank" by taking an honest look in the mirror and becoming more assertive and less passive. But conversation can't be secondary. It must be primary because you don't really know what the deal is and why cut back on beer when all you need to do is stop chewing with your mouth open?

Women who are new Mom's get lost in being the Mom. Does she feel the lack of sex is perfectly fine? Does she feel like you should find a way to be okay without sex? 

What are her real feelings on your relationship and how sex plays a role in relationship satisfaction?


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Now as far as what to do about it, this gets a little more labor intensive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




OP - listen to this poster, he speaks the truth.


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm all for "upping your sex rank" by taking an honest look in the mirror and becoming more assertive and less passive. But conversation can't be secondary. It must be primary because you don't really know what the deal is and why cut back on beer when all you need to do is stop chewing with your mouth open?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I disagree. "Let's talk about how sexually frustrated I am and how come you are always the sexual refuser" is a pointless conversation.

For a woman in mommy martyrdom mode, no amount of conversation is likely to get her to change her toxic behaviors. What's needed is action and leadership on his part. Deeds not words. 

He must STFU and stop talking about lack of sex. She knows and doesn't care. What will change his sex life is making himself as attractive as possible and destabilizing the relationship by taking a leadership role.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Do not have another kid. Absolute no. These problems will only get worse.

It sounds like your wife has checked out of your entire relationship, not just your sexual relationship. It can often happen that women get so caught up in being a mother, that they quit being a wife. This may or may not be what's happened here, but either way, you need to get your romantic relationship back.

I'd recommend that you read, "His Needs, Her Needs", "Love Busters", and "No More Mr. Nice Guy". After doing that, ask your wife to go with you to a marital counselor. You guys need a detached 3rd party to bridge the gap that's been created between you.

In regards to you asking for things and them not happening, you need to put your foot down, and command respect. If she agrees that you guys can do something (more sex, new position, whatever), then you should expect her to follow through. If she needs a rain check and asks to do it tomorrow, no big deal. But if she doesn't follow through, then don't just shrug it off. Hold her accountable. Don't be a doormat. Don't be a sissy-man that let's people shrug him off without consequence. You have needs, and it's her responsibility to meet those needs.

If she refuses to meet your needs, after discussion, a counselor, and all that, then all you have left is to fight fire with fire. Stop meeting her needs. Don't help with the kids, don't help with housework, don't tell her "I love you", completely withdraw. But that's your last resort. It's the shock and awe campaign meant to kick her in the nuts and wake her up.

As a side note, if you aren't in good shape, then rectify that.

So, here's your game plan:

1. Read the books I mentioned. Apply the knowledge gained from said books.
2. Pick a time when the kids are away for atleast a couple hours, and ask your wife to sit down with you and talk
3. Tell her that you would like to be having more sex - if she says "ok" then accept that, and initiate sex next time you want it.
4. If she doesn't follow through on her bargain, and rejects you, then pick another "kid free" time and sit her down.
5. Tell her that it hurts your feelings when she blows you off, and that you'd like her to start taking your needs seriously.
6. If she still doesn't respond, then schedule an appointment with a counselor at a time when you know she's free.
8. Let your wife know that you've made an appointment with a counselor, and that you'd like her to go with you.
9. If she says she doesn't want to go, then let her know that you're going anyway, and that she's free to change her mind.
10. Go to the appointment, and implement shock and awe.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm all for "upping your sex rank" by taking an honest look in the mirror and becoming more assertive and less passive. But conversation can't be secondary. It must be primary because you don't really know what the deal is and why cut back on beer when all you need to do is stop chewing with your mouth open?
> 
> Women who are new Mom's get lost in being the Mom. Does she feel the lack of sex is perfectly fine? Does she feel like you should find a way to be okay without sex?
> 
> What are her real feelings on your relationship and how sex plays a role in relationship satisfaction?


No.

Men whining about their lack of sex and asking women why they won't have sex with them is one least sexy and biggest desire-killers there is to women. 

Noone on the planet is titillated and aroused by someone complaining about lack of sex and interrogating them on why they aren't dropping their drawers. 

Discussions on relationship issues and problems and barriers to intimacy are things to be discussed in marital counseling when faced with a real possibility of someone dissolving the marriage. 

people are aroused by and want to have sex with people who are sexy. It is there for incumbent on men who want to be sexually active to be sexy and desirable. Men are at their absolute least desirability when they are whining and moaning about the lack of sex and interrogating their women on why they are having sex with them. 

When he is fit and vigorous in body and spirit, when he is flirtatious and engaging and when he is taking care of business and providing for his home and family and developing himself personally and professionally and is able to attract other women of the same or higher market value than his wife and she still has no desire for him and he is at a point where he is ready, willing and able to replace her as a lover -

It is at that point before initiates the separation process that is the time for discussions in MC on whether his chewing or whether how he picks at his cuticles kill her attraction for him. 

Until that that point, his to be as sexy and desirable as he can through his behaviors and actions and not through complaint and conversations. 

Conversations about sexual and relationship problems are not arousing or stimulating and will have negative effect on her libido and her desire for him. Those are discussions best left under the guidance of professional MC.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Are you clearly her husband or another child in her eyes?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

...... remember, this is not a situation where she wasn't in the mood on Sat night or turned away from his advances last week because he had onions for dinner and had onion breath. 

This is a young, healthy woman who has avoided intimacy and contact with him for 2 years. This goes way deeper than how noisy someone chews their food or whether they have some unsightly nose or ear hairs that are turning her off. 

This goes way deep into his behavior and characteristics as a man and deep into the fabric of their relationship. 

Yes, there will likely come a do-or-die time where they will have to lay it all out on the table and address a wide spectrum of the dynamics of their relationship. 

But at this point in time his onus is to get as fit, good looking and desirable as possible and to get his manhood and masculinity and mojo back and instill some sexiness and romance back into their marriage. 

And if at that point if she is still not onboard and he is getting ready to move on, then it will be time for the serious conversations on what each needs in order to maintain a functional and healthy and happy marriage. 

Now is the time for him to keep his yap shut and work on himself.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

She will likely need to be faced with the real possibility of being divorced and living in an apartment with 50% custody of her toddler and watching him move on with someone else before she grasps the gravity of the situation and takes it seriously.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

for many men, being able to obtain a sex life is worth divorcing from their sexless wives and splitting custody of children. 

His wife will need to ask herself if not having sex with him is worth divorcing and sharing custody for her. 

If the answer for her is yes, then she will be able to not have sex with him after the divorce just as well and it will work out for everyone. 

If she decides not having sex with him is not worth divorcing, then she will need to sit down to the negotiation table and work out what she needs from him to be sexually responsive to him. 

Either way, he will likely have to blow something up to get her attention and get her to take it seriously. 


(for my wife, it was the counselor looking her in the eye and telling her matter-of-factly that I was serious and that I had a sound plan in place for a post-divorce life without her and that if she wanted to remain married and have 24/7 contact with her children and have an intact home and family life, she had to start taking me and my needs seriously. She was resentful and angry at first but once it soaked in that I was serious and I was ready, willing and able to walk away and not look back, she realized that her own orgasms and being loved up by her husband and father of her children wasn't really that high of a price to pay. If it had been too high of a price to pay, I would have accommodated her wishes and never tried to have sex with her again. But I would have done it as a single man from my own home and I would have obtained a sex life with some one else and let her live her own life as sexless as she wanted)


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## Edward333 (Feb 13, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> NO!!!!!!
> 
> Absolutely do NOT even discuss having another child!
> 
> ...



This reply was SPOT ON!


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Cushion said:


> Thank you all so much for the replies. Im actually quite overwhelmed by how helpful you have been, most forums always have those guys that are just like 'man up' and stuff, but I so grateful for all your help.
> 
> I have lots to digest there, but I think I need to talk her again but be much more straight up and harder on her than before. Get some straight answers.
> 
> ...


Your listing all the same things my wife did. PLEASE read my story, link on my bio page.
DO NOT, DO NOT, have another kid until the whole sex issue is resolved.

WHY, you ask? I love my kids, always wanted to have kids. Enjoy being a dad. Till one day years ago my wife told me she wanted to separate. I said, "If you move out, kids should stay in house, so there is less disruption for them" Her response - "The kids are coming with me, you will be lucky to see them every other weekend". 

Ya know the crappy part, the judges will back her up. Happened to a classmate of mine. Hell, happened to a number of people where I live.

I bided my time until kids were old enough to know Dad would NEVER abandon them, then I let lowered the boom and had some serious discussions with wife.

Does your wife have abuse in her past? Read this link and maybe have her read it & ask "Is this something that is affecting our relationship?

https://forgivenwife.com/unbearable-lessons/


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Having "the talk" is a great idea on the surface. You should definitely tell her how it's putting a rift in the relationship and ask her the reasons for her rejection.

However... it's unlikely to yield much. It's unlikely that you'll get a straight, honest answer out of her. I don't feel that I ever did. Honesty might require her to admit some ugly things--parts of her personality that she'd rather not even acknowledge to herself. Emotions that she feels are inappropriate for a "good" woman to have. 

Maybe she's strongly attracted to "bad boys." Her upbringing told her that she's supposed to like nice guys. No, can't admit that reason.

Maybe she feels some resentment towards you for your lack of leadership. She wanted you to choose the restaurant last week, but you deferred to her. But she was raised to believe that you two are equals, so how is it fair to resent you for that? No, can't admit that reason.

Maybe she finds you physically uninteresting because of age or some weight you put on. No, can't admit that because it would be superficial. She knows that a good woman is attracted to her husband because of his soul, not his body. 

In this vein, I think you'll often find that the women contributors in here give reasons that are bunk, like she needs to feel "safe", or you need to do more chores, or hold the door open for her. I would take their advice with a grain of salt. Your wife already feels "safe", and chores and doors will produce nothing except more frustration. If anything, she needs to feel the imminent danger of losing her partner. 

Good luck in your talk. Do not whine or complain. Project strength and determination, and ask her for an explanation for the last two years. Do not accept an answer like "Okay, we'll do it tonight." That's not an explanation. Insist on an answer, force her to think about it, make her squirm. Reject attempts at seduction until you get an answer. But if you fall prey to those attempts, resume your interrogation the following day with the same vigor.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Tatsuhiko said:


> Having "the talk" is a great idea on the surface. You should definitely tell her how it's putting a rift in the relationship and ask her the reasons for her rejection.
> 
> However... it's unlikely to yield much. It's unlikely that you'll get a straight, honest answer out of her. I don't feel that I ever did. Honesty might require her to admit some ugly things--parts of her personality that she'd rather not even acknowledge to herself. Emotions that she feels are inappropriate for a "good" woman to have.
> 
> ...


Much of this seems to make perfect sense and I want to agree with it, but I will go back to what I said above - this is heavy stuff that should probably be under the guidance of a professional MC. 

She knows he is dissatisfied and frustrated. She knows he is unhappy and getting resentful. She knows he is yearning for more intimacy and connection. Yet she doesn't respect him as a man and as a husband enough to desire him or feel that his needs are important to the security of the marriage and family. 

She would rather live a celibate lifestyle and risk the security of her family than be loved by him and have orgasms with him. 

As I said above, this isn't about something trivial like bad breath or yellow toenails or that he doesn't take out the kitchen trash timely enough. There is something that goes way deep and should probably be dug into by professionals rather than him bringing it up during the commercial break of Grey's Anatomy. 

For her to get to the MC's office and be willing to delve into those dark places, she is going to have to face a very destabilizing threat. She will likely have to be staring into the face of single parenthood and life as a divorced mother of a toddler before she will go there.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Much of this seems to make perfect sense and I want to agree with it, but I will go back to what I said above - this is heavy stuff that should probably be under the guidance of a professional MC.


I'll confess that I don't have any experience with MCs, but I've heard that it's hard to find a good one. I'm worried that OP's wife will provide a list of bogus but believable reasons and the MC will embrace those to help determine what OP is doing wrong. It might be the case that OP is doing absolutely nothing wrong. He'll be told, directly or indirectly, that he needs to be nicer and more accommodating, which it sounds like he's already doing. OP's wife will eat that up, having now heard from a "professional" that she's not the one responsible for the issue. If anything, I think they'd be better off with a sex therapist.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Much of this seems to make perfect sense and I want to agree with it, but I will go back to what I said above - this is heavy stuff that should probably be under the guidance of a professional MC.
> 
> She knows he is dissatisfied and frustrated. She knows he is unhappy and getting resentful. She knows he is yearning for more intimacy and connection. Yet she doesn't respect him as a man and as a husband enough to desire him or feel that his needs are important to the security of the marriage and family.
> 
> ...




Loved reading a lot of your thoughts on this thread, Old Shirt. Having said that, I have a little bit different tact. If I had only had sex with my wife twice in a two year period, I would have been gone. In fact, long gone. No sex in the marriage is not a marriage but a friendship and a bad one at that. 

The time for action was 18 months prior to now and I believe OP should have told her that in the absense of sex that he's out of there. Simple as that. Had he done that and her answer was, "okay then, just leave", he'd have been much further along in the quest to find a new mate than in limbo right now. If his threat would have shaken her out of Mommy Mode, then the situation would have been righted a year or so ago.

I have always felt strongly about sex being a right for a marriage partner to expect and an obligation for spouses to provide to one another. The absense of that is a beach of the contractual marriage vows. If I were in a business partnership with anyone and they breached the terms of the contract at any time, let alone for two years, I would have addressed it in a swift and harsh way. Marriage is no different in my mind.

The time for talk has passed. In fact it has long passed. It's put up, or in this case, put out, or shut up.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Tatsuhiko said:


> To be blunt, a lot of women use the sex spigot as a means of controlling their partner. *I'm not even sure they're aware they're doing it--it just comes naturally. They dole out sex like a reward, withhold it when they're resentful*. You can reassert your control of the situation by removing this component--letting her know that you're moving away from reliance on her ability to engage in an intimate, normal marriage. The day she sees you as someone who can function independently without her might be the day that she finds a new dose of respect for you. A rekindling of her desire for you might naturally follow.


I think those that do it know exactly why .


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Now in regards to getting your manhood and mojo back, my recommendation is get the "Married Man Sex Life" books by Athol Kay and follow those algorythms.
> The basic format is that you hit the gym like it is the cure for cancer, world hunger and lost puppies all rolled into one and start dressing sharper, grooming and styling immaculately etc and start taking charge of your personal and professional life stronger and become a man that women are attracted to in general.
> 
> Don't do this at the expense of neglecting your home and family. Start kicking home and family life in the @$$ too. Be the Bomb in all things.
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Mostlycontent said:


> Loved reading a lot of your thoughts on this thread, Old Shirt. Having said that, I have a little bit different tact. If I had only had sex with my wife twice in a two year period, I would have been gone. In fact, long gone. No sex in the marriage is not a marriage but a friendship and a bad one at that.
> 
> The time for action was 18 months prior to now and I believe OP should have told her that in the absense of sex that he's out of there. Simple as that. Had he done that and her answer was, "okay then, just leave", he'd have been much further along in the quest to find a new mate than in limbo right now. If his threat would have shaken her out of Mommy Mode, then the situation would have been righted a year or so ago.
> 
> ...


 I am with you on that. At the two year mark I would have likely been divorced, in a new home and living a normal daily life with someone else and the prior marriage would have been a memory in the rearview mirror. 

But having two kids myself I do realize that the sex life invariably takes a bit of a slump and it is an insidious process that chips away a tiny bit of the marital intimacy each day until one day someone wakes up and realizes it is roommate scenario based on childcare and housekeeping needs. So I am giving a little bit of leeway here. 

Additionally, with a two year old the stakes are pretty high. He would either be looking at a minimum of 16 years of child support or be looking at rearing a toddler by himself 50% of the time. Neither of those things are really going to lend themselves as making him any kind of lady's man on the dating market. 

It's in his best interests to make a good-faith effort to try to regain her attraction and desire before moving on. 

What you and I and one or two of the other posters were trying to get across is that this is not something that one just brings up in normal conversation and gets resolution. Often times the first things people say is - "talk to her.."

Yeah right. Talk does not turn people on or make them horny. And what makes anyone think that he has not "talked" about it before. 

This is waaay beyond talk and way beyond a discussion while putting away the dishes after supper. 

Something is going to need to be blown up here to get her attention and she is going to have to face a major loss and major life disruption before she grasps the gravity of the situation and actually puts forth effort and lifting to do anything about it. 

And that is even assuming that she does want to fix it. She may be perfectly happy to let him go or she may be so angered that he still wants to have a sex life while there is a toddler to take care of that she may throw in the towel herself. And there is a real possibility that she may be so angered that he makes a stink about it that she can't feel any attraction for him any more.

Any way you look at it, this is a very very serious situation and it is not something that a normal conversation and discussion is going to resolve.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Cushion, make sure you check out Cromer's thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/378298-getting-ready-drop-news.html

This is what happens 10 years down the line. Don't let it go this far.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I don't necessarily agree that the OP is a beta provider. However, I do agree that his wife sees sex as disposable.

I strongly, 100% agree with the solution provided below. Clearly, his wife values him for something or else he would not be around (or at least she would not be engaging with him). So, he needs to make it clear that he brings plenty to the table and a decent sex life is a condition of his remaining around.

OP, you need to understand that you cannot nice your way into having sex. Lots of ladies at this point would be enjoying sex, or at least do it happily out of respect for the marriage and your role as her faithful partner. Unfortunately, your wife seems to do whatever works for her and doesn't seem to miss sex, so you need to make it clear that having sex is in her best interest. A critical part of that is building a life for yourself and your child apart from her. Let her see you taking your daughter to the park, beach, zoo, etc. and get left behind.

If you follow the advice given below, one of two things will happen. First (and hopefully) she will see your value and find the wherewithal to make your sex life a priority (which means not just doing it when and how she feels like). The alternative is that she still won't see your sex life as worthwhile, either because she thinks you are replaceable (some women, and men too, are prone to overvalue themselves) or because she's dug in her heels. Some women are offended that your feelings towards them depend on your sexual satisfaction, to say nothing of the possibility of insufficient sex leading to divorce.

Either way, you'll be better off than you are now. Good men are in short supply in the dating world (at least that is the common complaint from my female friends), and you will find someone if you want to.



MartinBeck said:


> I disagree. "Let's talk about how sexually frustrated I am and how come you are always the sexual refuser" is a pointless conversation.
> 
> For a woman in mommy martyrdom mode, no amount of conversation is likely to get her to change her toxic behaviors. What's needed is action and leadership on his part. Deeds not words.
> 
> He must STFU and stop talking about lack of sex. She knows and doesn't care. What will change his sex life is making himself as attractive as possible and destabilizing the relationship by taking a leadership role.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Tatsuhiko said:


> Cushion, make sure you check out Cromer's thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/378298-getting-ready-drop-news.html
> 
> This is what happens 10 years down the line. Don't let it go this far.


I spent the last hour reading much of that thread. And yes, this is Cushion's future if he doesn't blow something up now and make a drastic change.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Gents, your anger and bitterness won't get you laid. Getting in shape, being assertive, upping your sex rank etc...also won't get OP laid.

Sex twice, in two years. As someone already said that is a serious problem and I have my suspicions. She has some sort of personality disorder, like Borderline, that makes her as self centered as a 4 year old. She has a repressive family of origin that shamed her, shamed sex, and shamed women. She was sexually abused as a child. Can't do anything about the personality disorder, so you may as well skip everything and go straight to divorce. Sexual shame and and sexual abuse can be ameliorated to a certain degree in therapy.

It doesn't matter what OP does or doesn't do.

If his wife is perfectly fine with his suffering, he needs to divorce. Period. 

Start with asking HER what is going on in HER head, and HER relationship with HER husband. No where did I suggest OP tell her how unhappy the lack of sex makes him. She can't be that stupid that she doesn't know he is unhappy about sex. She is hoping this conversation doesn't have to be had and so she won't have to come out with what's going on in her brain.

Without having this conversation @Cushion, you may as well just divorce now and skip all the bull **** you're about to step in.

This is a two year game plan. GAME. not real but a damn game. You want your marriage to be about GAMING your wife?



> When he is fit and vigorous in body and spirit, when he is flirtatious and engaging and when he is taking care of business and providing for his home and family and developing himself personally and professionally and is able to attract other women of the same or higher market value than his wife and she still has no desire for him and he is at a point where he is ready, willing and able to replace her as a lover -


According to ******* ...I mean.. Athol Kay, flirting with other women, or getting other women to show interest in you will get a wife to respond. This is game playing and most men I know are above this high school bull ****. 



But here is what @oldshirt said that does work



> my wife, it was the counselor looking her in the eye and telling her matter-of-factly that I was serious and that I had a sound plan in place for a post-divorce life without her and that if she wanted to remain married and have 24/7 contact with her children and have an intact home and family life, she had to start taking me and my needs seriously. She was resentful and angry at first but once it soaked in that I was serious and I was ready, willing and able to walk away and not look back, she realized that her own orgasms and being loved up by her husband and father of her children wasn't really that high of a price to pay. If it had been too high of a price to pay, I would have accommodated her wishes and never tried to have sex with her again. But I would have done it as a single man from my own home and I would have obtained a sex life with some one else and let her live her own life as sexless as she wanted)


State a boundary, state a time line, and follow through. Period, end of story.


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## dawnabon (Mar 11, 2017)

Is your wife still breastfeeding by chance? 



Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> According to ******* ...I mean.. Athol Kay, flirting with other women, or getting other women to show interest in you will get a wife to respond. This is game playing and most men I know are above this high school bull ****.


I agree with much of what you have said but what I do need to clarify is that Athol Kay does not advocate flirting up or hitting on other women. And I did not mean guys should flirt up other women either although I can see how it may have seemed that was what I was suggesting. 

What I meant by becoming more flirtatious was becoming more flirtatious in demeanor in general and with the wife specifically. 

In regards to men getting fit, dressing well and becoming more attractive etc in general, When a man becomes more successful and attractive and increases his sex rank, he does not need to flirt with or hit on other women for his wife to notice that other women are taking notice and interest in him. 

Men are often completely oblivious of other women being interested in them, but their wife can see another woman's interest from 2 miles away in the dark and through the fog. When they see younger and more attractive women than themselves taking notice of him, they will know he has other options and that they will need to keep on their game or risk him walking away. 

And as convenient and frustrating as


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

@Anon Pink Sorry, but you are just wrong on this one. It's how we all wish it would work! It would be so much easier if conversation and communication could fix libido mismatch unhappy relationships! And that's what you think should of course be how it works. But to the sorrow of both men and women everywhere, that's just not actually how it works. 

It really truly just doesn't work like you wish it would.

Sure, he can have "The Talk". And he should, once and only once, to make it clear that he's he is trying to understand what Is going on and to go through the motions of being "good husband".But the talk will accomplish absolutely nothing. 

It will go like:
"Why aren't we ever having sex?"
"I dunno, I'm just not feeling it"
"Why, aren't you attracted to me?"
"I dunno"
"What can I do to get you in the mood?" 
"I dunno"
"This is important, I'm really unhappy in the marriage"
"STOP PRESSURING ME!!" 
And cue the tears.

Anon Pink, The big lie that you desperate want to believe is that conversation and intellectual reasoning can fix a "just not attracted" relationship problem. There's no amount of conversation or negotiation that can make her desire him. It really truly just doesn't work that way.

What works to restore her libido? Him being attractive. 
What's absolutely completely not attractive, at all? Talking about why he is unhappy in the marriage and that his needs aren't being met.


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> Getting in shape, being assertive, upping your sex rank etc...also won't get OP laid..



You're being disingenuous. Of course doing these things will get him laid. These will make him a more attractive man, which is the only thing that will get him laid.
Either by his current wife, or it will strongly increase his marketability when dating after the divorce.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MartinBeck said:


> You're being disingenuous. Of course doing these things will get him laid. These will make him a more attractive man, which is the only thing that will get him laid.
> Either by his current wife, or it will strongly increase his marketability when dating after the divorce.


Your optimism is duly noted.

The post divorce dating situation is more heavily predicated on current age, location, material wealth and social charm than having an Adonis body or what not. Assuming, of course, he looks decent to begin with.


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## BradWesley2 (Jul 15, 2016)

MartinBeck said:


> You're being disingenuous. Of course doing these things will get him laid. These will make him a more attractive man, which is the only thing that will get him laid.
> Either by his current wife, or it will strongly increase his marketability when dating after the divorce.


I agree with what AnonPink has written on this thread. The time for talk and action was 2 years ago, not today. 

During this 2 year period, she has effectively emasculated him, figuratively taking his penis and balls, putting them in a mason jar, and hiding them. In essence, SHE OWNS HIM!

His chances of turning this situation around are virtually nil. Depending upon his finances, if he should decide to divorce her, his foreseeable future could be very bleak. 

He could have the body of an Adonis, but he could be a flat ass broke Adonis.


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## BradWesley2 (Jul 15, 2016)

john117 said:


> Your optimism is duly noted.
> 
> The post divorce dating situation is more heavily predicated on current age, location, material wealth and social charm than having an Adonis body or what not. Assuming, of course, he looks decent to begin with.


BINGO!

Give that man a cigar!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

BMW and dad-bod trumps Ford Tempo and six-pack any time. There's a reason nearly everyone of my dad-bod neighbors drive high end sports sedans...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MartinBeck said:


> @Anon Pink Sorry, but you are just wrong on this one. It's how we all wish it would work! It would be so much easier if conversation and communication could fix libido mismatch unhappy relationships! And that's what you think should of course be how it works. But to the sorrow of both men and women everywhere, that's just not actually how it works.
> 
> It really truly just doesn't work like you wish it would.
> 
> ...



Ah, now I see how I've not been very clear. <-- _that's such an arrogant statement don't you think? If I was clearer of course you would agree with me..._

Here's how the conversation should go. Husband's lines in bold.

*We've got an unsustainable issue going on and it's really important to me that I understand what you think and how you feel. This conversation will probably need to be had a few times in order for us to really get to the heart, and I need that because I want to understand you as best as I can.*

She makes noncommittal noises indicating she will give the appearance of participating but inside she is almost at panic mode.

*What do you picture in your head when you picture our perfect marriage?*

Togetherness, visiting friends and exciting places, happy kids...bla bla bla...

*And what about our perfect sex life? A sex life is an integral part of marriage right? What do you imagine when you picture our sex life as part of our perfect marriage?*

"Of course we would have sex it's just that...." enter excuses, rationalization, and maybe even some blame directed toward husband. 

*Do you feel like I show you how much I love you well enough, or often enough? What do you want for me to do, or not do?*

"I hate it when you... I wish you would.... " husband takes note of these and at this point doesn't specifically address them.

*Are you suggesting that if I ...did more or less of whatever she just said... than we would have been having sex regularly? That doesn't make sense to me because we only have had sex twice since baby was born. That's a big problem and we need to figure it out because I don't think it's normal for a married couple who are in love to not have sex. That's why I asked you to tell me what you envision as our ideal. I want to know what you think.*

I don't see anything wrong with not having sex. I can't help the way I feel. I just don't want to have sex.

*And that is unsustainable. You are asking me to be faithful to you and to live the rest of my life having sex once a year. Do you think that's fair to me?*

[Her next comment will reveal what you're dealing with. If she calls you names, tells you it's your fault, tells you there is nothing she can do etc...you may as well begin divorce because this won't change no matter what you do. If she tries to end the conversation, seems ready to panic, can't look at you, she needs professional help because there is something deep happening.]

Now where in here does the husband say he wants sex. No where in here does he sound like a kicked puppy. No where in here is he blaming her, although she will feel blamed.

In this dialogue, he is trying to get his wife to say her intentions for this marriage. Not any marriage, not marriage to an imaginary perfect man, but THIS marriage, our marriage, our relationship.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

At middle age, the Adonis body is generally attached to a card board box personality. Women with the perfect body are also suspect in the social charm/personality department. Being fit/healthy is one thing. Being too attached to appearance reveals a deficit elsewhere.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MartinBeck said:


> You're being disingenuous. Of course doing these things will get him laid. These will make him a more attractive man, which is the only thing that will get him laid.


Nope. Not if his wife has borderline personality disorder, not if she is a narcissist, not if she has a history of CSA or extreme shame. Sex twice in two years indicates it's one of those three.


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

john117 said:


> Your optimism is duly noted.
> 
> The post divorce dating situation is more heavily predicated on current age, location, material wealth and social charm than having an Adonis body or what not. Assuming, of course, he looks decent to begin with.




Looks are part of it. Taking care of health and weight is the basics. 
Confidence and assertiveness is also a big part, and that can very much be learned. Just being an interesting person who does stuff with their life is also hugely attractive.
All of which a husband stops doing in many marriages.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MartinBeck said:


> Looks are part of it. Taking care of health and weight is the basics.
> Confidence and assertiveness is also a big part, and that can very much be learned. Just being an interesting person who does stuff with their life is also hugely attractive.
> All of which a husband stops doing in many marriages.


But this isn't a case of sex dwindling to once a month, which is typical of loss of libido due to loss of attraction.

Sex once a year...much more insidious than simple attraction.


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> Ah, now I see how I've not been very clear. <-- _that's such an arrogant statement don't you think? If I was clearer of course you would agree with me..._
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I dunno. Your summary and my summary of their hypothetical conversation sound pretty similar to me, and both seem to go the same place, at least in my reading. 

Yes, he can get some more info on whether to just bail and divorce right away, but other then that nothing else changes as a result of "The Talk". 
Having either your my version of the conversation more than once is pointless and counterproductive.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MartinBeck said:


> I dunno. Your summary and my summary of their hypothetical conversation sound pretty similar to me, and both seem to go the same place, at least in my reading.
> 
> Yes, he can get some more info on whether to just bail and divorce right away, but other then that nothing else changes as a result of "The Talk".
> Having either your my version of the conversation more than once is pointless and counterproductive.



I know this seems like I'm beating the issue to death but language is subtle and the wording is vital because women are generally more language oriented than men.

No 'talk' will change sexlessness either. The talk is try to discover the real reason why the marriage is sexless. Is there another man? Is she attracted to her husband? Does she expect to have a marriage without sex? Does she even like sex? None of the answers to those questions will get you laid. But the answers to those questions will direct you in what to do in order to get laid.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> But this isn't a case of sex dwindling to once a month, which is typical of loss of libido due to loss of attraction.
> 
> Sex once a year...much more insidious than simple attraction.


And it could be that she's just lazy. Wife and I have had sex three times in the past five 1/2 years - last time was 15 months ago. My wife would rather sit on her rear on her phone or sleep all hours of the day than have sex, plus she has an uncanny ability to be tired/have a headache/have cramps when the kids aren't around or when they've been asleep for a while. Our last "date night" consisted of going to a store, then when we got to dinner she complained about how tired she was. Now our kids are a little older (five) and we're older (early 50's) so that should be factored in. 

Also agree with the poster(s) who mentioned the "husband appliance" - this seems to be a common occurrence. Husband brings home a paycheck, helps with the kids, does the yard work, and the best part to her is that he doesn't pester her for sex. 

OP, feel for you. Best to get resolved right now, and I'll echo the others - do not have another child with this woman.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MartinBeck said:


> Looks are part of it. Taking care of health and weight is the basics.
> Confidence and assertiveness is also a big part, and that can very much be learned. Just being an interesting person who does stuff with their life is also hugely attractive.
> All of which a husband stops doing in many marriages.


You have much to learn about human behavior I'm afraid. I'm pretty healthy for my age (57), active (cycling), extremely well educated, six figures, etc. My wife's not interested in any of those as she's all of those as well. 

You can't fix personality on your own. That's where me and her differ. But a turnip personality will not be likely to be attracted to a Harrison Ford personality. 

When it comes time to attract others, it's like sending resumes. You have to be a purple squirrel. If you are, you get lucky quickly regardless of personality, in an online dating or similar scene. If you go the traditional dating route you still have to stick out somehow and material wealth trumps all other features...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

ChargingCharlie said:


> And it could be that she's just lazy. Wife and I have had sex three times in the past five 1/2 years - last time was 15 months ago. My wife would rather sit on her rear on her phone or sleep all hours of the day than have sex, plus she has an uncanny ability to be tired/have a headache/have cramps when the kids aren't around or when they've been asleep for a while. Our last "date night" consisted of going to a store, then when we got to dinner she complained about how tired she was. Now our kids are a little older (five) and we're older (early 50's) so that should be factored in.
> 
> Also agree with the poster(s) who mentioned the "husband appliance" - this seems to be a common occurrence. Husband brings home a paycheck, helps with the kids, does the yard work, and the best part to her is that he doesn't pester her for sex.
> 
> OP, feel for you. Best to get resolved right now, and I'll echo the others - do not have another child with this woman.



Do you realize you just proved my point? Sex 3 times in nearly 6 years? It doesn't matter what you do Charlie. She doesn't like sex. She won't have sex. There is nothing you can do to change that. So why bother?

It's time to simply leave. Quit *****ing and just leave.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> I know this seems like I'm beating the issue to death but language is subtle and the wording is vital because women are generally more language oriented than men.
> 
> No 'talk' will change sexlessness either. The talk is try to discover the real reason why the marriage is sexless. Is there another man? Is she attracted to her husband? Does she expect to have a marriage without sex? Does she even like sex? None of the answers to those questions will get you laid. But the answers to those questions will direct you in what to do in order to get laid.


This. The purpose of the discussion should be to determine the reasons, not a just a chance for her to say "Really, I'll change! I'll work on it! Pinky swear!" You should reject those promises and get to the bottom of the problem.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Tatsuhiko said:


> This. The purpose of the discussion should be to determine the reasons, not a just a chance for her to say "Really, I'll change! I'll work on it! Pinky swear!" *You should reject those promises and get to the bottom of the problem.*



Exactly.

Sex this infrequent isn't, IMO, a case of entitlement, or laziness, or even neglectful forgetfulness. It is insidious and the problem goes far far beyond simple attraction.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

@Anon Pink

You're hitting them out of the park today.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

ChargingCharlie said:


> And it could be that she's just lazy. Wife and I have had sex three times in the past five 1/2 years - last time was 15 months ago. My wife would rather sit on her rear on her phone or sleep all hours of the day than have sex, plus she has an uncanny ability to be tired/have a headache/have cramps when the kids aren't around or when they've been asleep for a while. Our last "date night" consisted of going to a store, then when we got to dinner she complained about how tired she was. Now our kids are a little older (five) and we're older (early 50's) so that should be factored in.
> 
> Also agree with the poster(s) who mentioned the "husband appliance" - this seems to be a common occurrence. Husband brings home a paycheck, helps with the kids, does the yard work, and the best part to her is that he doesn't pester her for sex.
> 
> OP, feel for you. Best to get resolved right now, and I'll echo the others - do not have another child with this woman.


Three times in five and a half years!!!!?

I don't think your wife being lazy has anything to do with her not wanting to have sex with you.

I had sex with my almost 47 year old wife 5x in the past 4 days. Of which 2 of those days she worked full time, and took our teenage son to his team's game as well on one of those days. Plus she picked up dinner for our kids before we went on a date after work, where we had dinner and cocktails at two different venues. While on the day we had sex twice, she also spent 7 hours in a car as a passenger with me as well. Where after arriving home we briefly said hi to the kids, before quickly going to our bedroom locking the door and going for it.

I think your wife does what you describe, in order to successfully avoid having sex with you. The fact that you remain with her despite such behaviour, tells her and me that you're fine with not having sex with her for a year or more.

If you accept a sexless marriage, you are going to get exactly that.

@Cushion I'm at a loss as well, as to why you would choose to remain married to a woman who evidently has been loathe to have sex with you for at least 2 years?

If you're fine with this, I encourage you to embrace your marital celibacy with some enthusiasm. On the other hand if you're not fine with this, I encourage you to replace your wife with some urgency.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Tatsuhiko said:


> This. The purpose of the discussion should be to determine the reasons, not a just a chance for her to say "Really, I'll change! I'll work on it! Pinky swear!" You should reject those promises and get to the bottom of the problem.


Funny, I've been advocating root cause analysis for the last 4 years in tam but few people agree with me, opting for the wisdom of diy pop psychology books...

Let's hope it's better this time.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Who is against root cause analysis?

My feeling is when one spouse has gotten to the point where they are either withholding or have no interest and have done NOTHING to get to the bottom of the issue themselves, there is little more anyone can do. Maybe the other spouse has been a brick wall to talk to, but at that point, why stay in a marriage where you have no physical or emotional intimacy with your spouse. Life is too damn short.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> Funny, I've been advocating root cause analysis for the last 4 years in tam but few people agree with me, opting for the wisdom of diy pop psychology books...
> 
> Let's hope it's better this time.


Amen. Treating the symptom does not lead to a cure.


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

OP's problem can stem from any number of causes: his wife is not attracted to him; she's having an affair; she's a closet lesbian, and so on. Whatever the cause(s), leaving them alone and addressing the problem pretty much guarantees that OP's problem will remain. To the point of other posters, it is imperative to understand what's behind his wife's behavior and try to fix that. The real question becomes, can it be fixed?

The mismatched sex drive problem is one with no solution, and it's a common theme in posts on TAM. Sex is great in the relationship while dating, maybe early on in marriage, but then it wanes. What seemed to be a match of high sex drives between husband and wife degenerates into one person with high drive and Oscar-worthy theatrics from the other person--theatrics that end as soon as he or she gets what they wanted! The ol' bait-n-switch trick has been pulled many times before, and I hope for OP's sake that this is not the case here. Like I said, no good solution to that problem and a recipe for endless amounts of frustration.

If OP's wife has misled him regarding her genuine interest in sex, I argue that only marginal improvements come when she stops taking him for granted, as if she doesn't have to meet his physical needs. This is the wake-up call for the wife, e.g. either she services him, or it's divorce time. Such might be effective on a short-term horizon, but I question whether it achieves OP's true goals on the long-term. After all, sex with an unwilling participant is not very fulfilling at all, and by threatening divorce, he distorts his wife's incentives away from genuine willingness to play and toward unwillful participation in sex via coercion. Not good.

Since OP has a kid, I think his priorities need to change, such that these priorities don't place a good sex life (his interest alone) above family togetherness (a joint interest). I would push for marriage counseling and sex therapy before divorce. OP can talk to his wife until he's blue in the face, and she may hear him, but hearing is different than understanding. Sadly for him, the latter might be better facilitated by a neutral third-party saying the exact same things he would tell her, during "the talk".


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

john117 said:


> You have much to learn about human behavior I'm afraid. I'm pretty healthy for my age (57), active (cycling), extremely well educated, six figures, etc. My wife's not interested in any of those as she's all of those as well.
> 
> You can't fix personality on your own. That's where me and her differ. But a turnip personality will not be likely to be attracted to a Harrison Ford personality.
> 
> When it comes time to attract others, it's like sending resumes. You have to be a purple squirrel. If you are, you get lucky quickly regardless of personality, in an online dating or similar scene. If you go the traditional dating route you still have to stick out somehow and material wealth trumps all other features...




Absolutely no guarantee "being attractive" helps with the current spouse. 
Absolutely it helps on the margin to land and close when back on the market. 

And you very can much train yourself to be more extroverted, more talkative, more confident demeanor.

Within a pretty wide financial comfort range, being charming is better than being boring. Less gut is better then more beer belly. Being the guy who sails / flys / bikes / woodworks on the weekends is vastly more likely attract a higher class of new girlfriend rather than being the guy who does nothing but sit through their children's' sports leagues or nothing but smoke pot and Xbox.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That's my point tho, that the vast amounts of self improvement recommended​ by TAM aren't going to do much for the existing situation; they're for the next situation.

This reminds me of a great book I've read by Tracy Kidder. He said, product development (a minicomputer) is like pinball. You play the current game well, you get to play the next game for free. 

Yet most people would rather put the effort in saving the marriage in a meaningful manner, not by lifting weights and dressing sharp. A wife that hasn't bothered to participate in intimacy for a year isn't likely to be swayed either way.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> Funny, I've been advocating root cause analysis for the last 4 years in tam but few people agree with me, opting for the wisdom of diy pop psychology books...
> 
> Let's hope it's better this time.


I don't know about that.

Sex once a month is loss of libido.

Sex once a year...serious **** that TAM will be no help on what so ever unless the OP wants help on divorce advice.


ETA:
It wasn't until the last 18 months that it really sunk in just how unchangeable a troubled marriage is. You can't sex, nice, or earn your way into a good one. Sometimes we just have to admit we made a mistake when walked down that aisle.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

No one is dissing root cause analysis. 
Before nuking a marriage from orbit, one should seek an honest attempt at professional MC and part if that process will invariably be root cause analysis.

The catch however is that in the absence of abuse, addiction, adultery, gross neglect on the HD partner and some sort of medical or psychological disorder, CSA or affair on the part of the LD partner, that does leave the attractiveness, fitness,masculinity and seductivess of the HD partner as the root cause.

So assuming the absence of abuse, addition, adultery and gross neglect- doesn't it simply make sense to start addressing the beer gut and grungy sweat pants and nose and ear hair today??

If Cushion was a wife beater or an alcoholic or spends every waking moment at the bar or golf course with his buddies while his wife toils at home with kids, I would hope he would have enough plain horse sense to address those areas first.

But since there's been no mention of that or mention or any kind of disorder or condition with his wife.

That leaves infidelity on her part or a loss of attraction for him. 

If lack of attraction is a sound possibility then it makes sense to address the traits and characteristics that make men sexually desirable today. 

Then once the Dadbod has been toned up, he's dressing better, smelling better, looking better and is more confident and dominant, if there is still no response and assuming he still wants to save the marriage (and assuming an honest investigation rules out and affair) then a professional root-cause analysis to delve into FOO issues or personality disorder is in order. 

For many couples the root cause IS fat and lazy. 

And for those that say fitness and dress and demeanor do not effect a wife's libido, get some abz and rippling biceps and test that theory. 

Or better yet, put on an additional 60 lbs of blubber and sit on the couch drinking beer all day and see if you still get any at all.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

there is an evil deceitful type of woman that wants kids, and that is it. she may be all lovey dovey before you get married, and the first years of marriage can be like heaven. BUT, the moment she has the two kids, that is it. Your job as husband is done. no more of that icky sex. You are only relegated now to being a financial provider. 

She might even have other toxic female friends who meet and laugh at how they shut off their horny husbands.

You have been bait-and-switched. It is a devious thing, and i personally would divorce her for it. She has been planning/conspiring this all along, from your first date.

open your eyes, and act accordingly from here on out.

I might point out, painful as it will be, that YOU were at the scene of the crime. 6 weeks after the delivery, you should have DEMANDED the sex start again.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Actually, one would be surprised to learn what percentage of people end up in the Beyond section of Bed Bath and Beyond in terms of mental health. 

I'm sure my clinical or behavioral buddies see a personality disorder behind every bush, and to be fair, living in America is stressing enough that I could believe them. To that, add family of origin or culture issues, religious issues, work related stress, and the ever important keeping up with the Joneses and it's a miracle anyone has sex within the context of marriage in this country any more. And the adultery and divorce rates reflect that.

Root cause analysis doesn't have to be too detailed. A few, ehem, carefully executed experiments (aka excrement tests) can weed out some of the options. Again, tho, the problem is that people simply live life in autopilot mode without taking in details. Basic things, like, is the partner willing to talk about it? Is their behavior rational? Their excuses plausible? Are they interested in seeking professional intervention? And so on. 

I have a customer delivery in two weeks and one function outright does not work. We've beaten around the bush for 3 months and nothing has come out of it, because we were too busy placating the customer, blaming the testing apparatus, doing an 180 on reality, and prettying up irrelevant features.

2 months ago I told them what the issue was, after spending a month on Matlab. We could have used the 2 months to fix the issue, a simple fix, rather than focus resources on everything but root cause analysis. 

Reading the standard Tam response to sexless marriages feels exactly like the above.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cushion hasn't been back since his 2nd post on page 1. I wonder if he was hoping to hear that he needed to do some more dishes and a foot rub or two and she's be on him like a cheap suit.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

john117 said:


> Your optimism is duly noted.
> 
> The post divorce dating situation is more heavily predicated on current age, location, material wealth and social charm than having an Adonis body or what not. Assuming, of course, he looks decent to begin with.


This is absolutely true. Importantly, it doesn't take that much in the way of wealth to be attractive to single women, typically. If you have a good office job or good trade, and handle your business, a lady sees that:
* You are probably comfortably self-sufficient, which is more than a lot of single people, and
* You stuck with something long enough to be good at it, which is attractive in itself.

Add to that a good personality / sense of humor, and decent looks, and a guy should be able to find quality ladies to date.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

DTO said:


> This is absolutely true. Importantly, it doesn't take that much in the way of wealth to be attractive to single women, typically. If you have a good office job or good trade, and handle your business, a lady sees that:
> * You are probably comfortably self-sufficient, which is more than a lot of single people, and
> * You stuck with something long enough to be good at it, which is attractive in itself.
> 
> Add to that a good personality / sense of humor, and decent looks, and a guy should be able to find quality ladies to date.


Don't forget dancing skills. Gents, you have to be able to dance.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's really all about your level of dating improvement needs. If you're in the middle, financially, personality, or otherwise speaking, yea, you may be limited if age wise you want the "good stuff". If you're in your 50's and you're pretty much settled, you're looking for the Golden Girls version of FWB give or take, fun, no LTR distress... Both ways. There's a lot more clarity on both sides. I'm not looking for a 35 year old MILF with middle school kids in tow. Nor a 45 year old drama queen cougar. Maybe a 50+ well seasoned lady who knows how to cook gumbo, likes to bike, and can handle a Nikon. In turn, she gets someone who loves to travel, has a wicked good sense of humor, is a straight arrow, and enjoys cat videos and Kentucky basketball. Nothing fancy.

It's all about requirements analysis, as my systems engineering colleagues would say.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> Additionally, with a two year old the stakes are pretty high. He would either be looking at a minimum of 16 years of child support or be looking at rearing a toddler by himself 50% of the time. Neither of those things are really going to lend themselves as making him any kind of lady's man on the dating market.


I disagree that those factors would make him an undesirable dating partner. First of all, having 50% custody still leaves him every other weekend (and weekdays after work) to date. The OP is 35 - plenty of ladies in his target age range likely will have the same issues (family responsibilities) or at accept it gracefully. I have 50% custody, have successfully worked around it before and am doing it again now.

Then, having 50% custody with only one kid is going to limit his child support. I make double what my ex does and my responsibility is less than $100 per week. Yes this might be more due to child care expenses and what not, but he's not going to owe those really high payments about which you hear.


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## dawnabon (Mar 11, 2017)

Man with 50% custody of his toddler = responsible dad. I would find that much more attractive than a man with kids he found excuses not to see. 

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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Sex this infrequent isn't, IMO, a case of entitlement, or laziness, or even neglectful forgetfulness. It is insidious and the problem goes far far beyond simple attraction.


Agreed. But I think you are focusing on a slightly different aspect of this than some of the other posters. You are focusing on him having more sex with his current wife. The other posters are focusing on him having more sex with his next partner. I think you and they are agreed about the difficulty of his having more sex with his wife. You seem to take from that conclusion that he should delve head first into the psychological issues that are preventing his wife from enjoying sex. Which all agree are difficult to resolve. The other look at the difficulty of resolving her psychological issues and advise: buddy, cut your losses, get in shape and go find someone else to have sex with.


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## Thestock (May 8, 2018)

Hey man I just wanted to pipe in here to say GOOD LUCK, I am in the same boat with you. I dont know why but God somehow intended for women's desire to fade over time while the man's does not. Children definitely accelerate that process. Females who disagree with me, please don't roast me on that statement....it is born solely of my own experience and the experience of hundreds of other males like Cushion.

My advice to you is to read Married Man Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay. Run the MAP on her. If nothing else, you will feel much better about yourself. I don't advocate leaving the marriage...but only you can decide, if nothing changes, how content you are to stay put or if this problem is a deal breaker.

Good luck mate.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Zombie. Closing. 

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