# Paralyzed by indecision.



## IIJokerII

Since going into details would consume and ungodly amount of time and energy let me just ask the following;

How do I combat an Emotional Affair?

How do I get her to admit to rug sweeping?

How do I combat the situation with the affair underground?

How do I get her to realize the damage that she has done?

Am I willing to kill the relationship between us? - Yes

Do I want to? - No

Yes, Kids are involved.

No, It has not gone Physical, but I cannot disprove phone sexting.

I am the bread winner.

She refuses to go transparent at all. 

She insists he no longer feels in love with her nor her with him. (Details on this if asked can be provided)

She still has him as a FB Friend, but a hidden one and has removed me from her list.

When I asked to see her phone I got derailed by lame excuses, one such as she needs to trust me (WTF?) and was swiftly distracted by her engaging in physical intimacy, a classic maneuver.

After utilizing several tactics have caught her telling lies about what they talked about or what she has told him about what has happened around here since I threatened to kick her out. Hint, Liars cannot re-tell stories based on lies due to no foundation for the memory to latch onto nor can she tell the story backwards. When tasked by this she gets completely flustered and doesn't remember.

And the classic line, "I need to find myself" .

I need some advice from some seasoned veterans, please fire away, hold nothing back. And if by chance there are any ladies lurking, let me know from a woman's perspective.


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## Hope1964

Do some reading (see below), give her ONE LAST CHANCE to come clean and read with you, then divorce her sorry ass.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...e-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html#post430739

Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends"

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/40052-understanding-pain.html#post590281


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## IIJokerII

I have read these links, several times in fact. Now how the heck do I get her to read, or better yet, acknowledge them, willingly?


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## TRy

IIJokerII said:


> She still has him as a FB Friend, but a hidden one and has removed me from her list.


 Her defriending you while keeping him as a friend says it all when it comes to showing you how little respect that she has for you. Among the young, defriending someone in FB is what you do when you breakup with them. This coupled with her not giving you full and immediate access to her phone, shows that she is picking her affair partner (AP) over you. If you allow this disrespect to stand, you will lose her in the end anyways.

You must be willing to end your relationship to have a chance at having a relationship worth saving. She must agree to full no contact (NC) and full transpancy without complaints. Full transpancy includes access to all passwords, accounts, devices and phones. Do not beg to get this. She either does it or you take actions to end the relationship. Because you have let her get away with it so far, she may call your bluff. It cannot be a bluff, as in your heart you must be willing to end it to save it. Once she sees that it is not a bluff she may change her mind, but do not forgive or take her back too easy. If she does not beg to come back, then your relationship with her was over already, but now you know and can move on with your life. Good luck and be strong.


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## badmemory

The advice as you may well suspect, is to start the divorce process and implement the 180 to detach from her. Make an exit plan.

One of the consequences to her is complete transparency. You can't accept any thing less. Period.

One other is exposure. To her family, your family and to the OM's SO or wife.

If she turns around, you can consider delaying the D, but not until you're satisfied that she is completely remorseful and willing to accept all due consequences.

There you go: advice just as concise as your own description. 

Keep posting.


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## Thorburn

Sounds like my story in 2010. My wife would not come clean with anything unless I had proof and even with proof she would lie and lie and it got old.

I was told by a counselor that I went to at the time that my wife would not change and that she will do it again and if the guy was local it would go PA. It happened within a year as my counselor predicted and he never met my wife.

I knew nothing of TAM, the 180 or anything else you will find here.

I would suggest if you want to save your marriage you will need to be willing to lose it. It is risky, but brother, you could lose it no matter what you do or don't do. 

Your wife is manipulating you, lying, hiding, rugsweeping, etc. All things my wife did in 2010.

I would start the 180 big time. It will seem counter intuitive but it has worked for many in that you focus on yourself.

I would also expose this. Don't tell your wife. Exposure does not always work, but it is (IMO) the # 1 tool we have to use to end an affair.

The "I need to find myself", is in my mind another way of saying, I have another man in my life and you are not that man. Frankly it is a B.S. way of telling you to go pound sand while she tries to figure out whether she wants you or the OM, or perhaps has already decided and does not know how to tell you it is over.


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## PBear

IIJokerII said:


> I have read these links, several times in fact. Now how the heck do I get her to read, or better yet, acknowledge them, willingly?


You can't force her to do anything. All you can do is lay out your boundaries and then enforce them. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TRy

IIJokerII said:


> I have read these links, several times in fact. Now how the heck do I get her to read, or better yet, acknowledge them, willingly?


 Cheaters know that they are cheating, but feel that as long as they lie about it and do not admit it to you, then they do not have to take responsibility for their cheating. Under cheater's logic only what they acknowledge matters, and that what you know to be true based on convincing evidence means nothing unless they admit it to you. Contrary to what cheaters say, you do not need the cheater to admit anything for you to take action based what you know to be true; so stop waiting for them to admit anything and take action now.


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## IIJokerII

With exception of a mass Facebook post to all exposure has taken place with all of her Family members. In fact, I have some of them calling me for support as the situation has been circulated among themselves. 

I have her parents quiet support to do whatever I need to do, and if you knew her father this was very alleviating since he can be rather intimidating. There is only one place for her to go really and without any ego or machoism's I do have the ability to get her out of my house, since she said I'd have to force her out, with just a simple phone call. 

And on a side note I'd like to ask the internet community a little question;

If your wife sends another man an E-mail in secret stating verbatim "Were having a girl, I guess things do happen for a reason" What would you draw from that?


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## walkonmars

IIJokerII said:


> If your wife sends another man an E-mail in secret stating verbatim "Were having a girl, I guess things do happen for a reason" What would you draw from that?


What I would think: She's preggers. 
Did you know about this?


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## MSP

IIJokerII said:


> And on a side note I'd like to ask the internet community a little question;
> 
> If your wife sends another man an E-mail in secret stating verbatim "Were having a girl, I guess things do happen for a reason" What would you draw from that?


I'd say she was having a girl.

Probably not with you, though I'm sure she'll want you to pay for all the related expenses for a while. 

Kick her out _now_. Being pregnant, she'll want security like nothing else. She won't be able to handle being alone right now. She will go to him and he'll probably dump her, sooner or later. Then she'll come crying back to you, saying she never truly loved him and she always wanted to be with you. At that point you get to decide what having her back is worth to you.

Conditions should, at a minimum, include: a paternity test for all of your kids, a polygraph test, total transparency in everything she does, no contact with the other man ever again (unless he's the father, in which case he needs to pay child support).


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## 3putt

IIJokerII said:


> With exception of a mass Facebook post to all exposure has taken place with all of her Family members. In fact, I have some of them calling me for support as the situation has been circulated among themselves.
> 
> I have her parents quiet support to do whatever I need to do, and if you knew her father this was very alleviating since he can be rather intimidating. There is only one place for her to go really and without any ego or machoism's I do have the ability to get her out of my house, since she said I'd have to force her out, with just a simple phone call.
> 
> And on a side note I'd like to ask the internet community a little question;
> 
> If your wife sends another man an E-mail in secret stating verbatim "Were having a girl, I guess things do happen for a reason" What would you draw from that?


What have you done to expose the OM? Is he married? Girlfriend? What about his family?


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## IIJokerII

Unfortunately this was discovered years ago, after another Emotional affair with her ex boyfriend and although she insisted nothing happen, nor have I been able to find definitive proof otherwise, this statement has since haunted me since I read it. Regardless, this girl, my daughter, needed (needs) a father and at the time I was unable or unwilling to do anything that would or could damage this girls upbringing. I do know that they spent the day together, at least once.


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## vellocet

IIJokerII said:


> Since going into details would consume and ungodly amount of time and energy let me just ask the following;
> 
> How do I combat an Emotional Affair?
> 
> How do I get her to admit to rug sweeping?
> 
> How do I combat the situation with the affair underground?
> 
> How do I get her to realize the damage that she has done?remember.


Tell her you want her to move out and that you will be filing for divorce.

That will do one of two things.

1) She agrees and gets out, therefore signaling she wants that too.

or

2) It will scare the crap out of her and she will stop the rug sweeping and possibly the affair.

But be willing to carry through if number one becomes the choice.


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## Dyokemm

"If your wife sends another man an E-mail in secret stating verbatim "Were having a girl, I guess things do happen for a reason" What would you draw from that?"

Impossible to know for sure without more info.

I assume you knew she was pregnant.

She could be sharing details from your life with the POS.

How certain are you it has not been a PA?

Because one take on this is she is informing him about THEIR situation since she uses the term 'we'.

And the last part of the message is truly cryptic.

If it has gone PA, it could be her telling him that the pregnancy is a sign they are meant to be together.

A person would need to know more of the conversation to understand her point if she is referring to YOUR M with the 'we'.


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## Dyokemm

Just saw your last post.

My advice is this:

Why live in doubt and fear?

Do a paternity test and put the issue to rest so it stops eating at you.


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## IIJokerII

Come on internet community, get me fired up. And to say the least you all don't even know the half of it. 

On yet another side note, should I call this guys mother and tell her what's going on. BTW, Her current emotional affair is separate from the POS in regards to the whole POSSIBLE baby daddy theory. I am not in denial at all, as I have never got a logical answer as to why she felt it necessary to let her ex, then current emotional AP, know that we are having a girl.


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## walkonmars

Get your daughter genetically tested to determine paternity. You can still be her dad if that what you want, but you should know the truth. 

And don't rely on your wife for the truth - you won't get it from her. 

How many years are you willing to put up with this? It's the not the first time and it won't be the last. You can huff and puff all you want but unless you pull the plug - 'for reals' - things won't change. 

You need to cut her loose and see if she's willing to come back to you *for the right reasons*. Chances are she won't - but wouldn't you like to know that now rather than 12 years from now?


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## cool12

IIJokerII said:


> Come on internet community, get me fired up. And to say the least you all don't even know the half of it.


why you're not fired up over her outrageous behavior already is a mystery to me.

grow a pair. NC or no R.
go 180 and lawyer up.


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## happi_g_more2

1) You can love and raise your daughter a single male. You dont have to live with this bull**** to be a part of your daughters life
2) Start reading 180. If your wife wants to be married to you, she will abide by these super simple requests. No passwords, no facebook, no girls nights out, no being alone with dudes. I mean cmon, this is basic marriage 101. 
3) You need broader exposure. Yes, expose to this guys mom. I would expose this to everyone and anyone in both of your lives.
4) With the 180, start with D papers, show them to her with a list of what she must do to EARN you back. Then leave and dont talk to her until she does. If she signs the papers, great, you are free of this 2xing wh0re. If she concedes, great, you get to work on your marriage. If she does nothing, you file after a set amount of time.


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## Rugs

If your cheating partner can't get you fired up, we can't .

No respect = No hope.

You know what you need to do, so start planning a life that is good for you and your children and send your wife to OM's


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## IIJokerII

I must yet again be clear, I am not afraid to do what I have to do. In fact, I work myself up in quite the fury frequently about this. 

Alas though there is that "but", and not the kind that I like. Since the semi-ultimatum she has admitted things and opened up about herself unlike any other times. This is not to say that she has changed or is reconciling. It could even be a smoke screen for delay. I will admit that she had a real eff'ed up childhood, although it is no excuse for her behavior.

And truth be told, It is hard to accept that it was another man that I was chosen over. Had she made it clear about wanting to move on without marital intrusion, an invited one at that, I'd probably have been a little hurt, asked for another try to fix things and if it didn't work out so be it. 

One month before she met this idget we talked about how though things are tough we have a strong family. Little did I know otherwise. The silver lining though is that since I was able to go thru my withdrawal from my emotional connection from her I was able to see things more clearly. I was taken for granted, gaslit for years about all topics, emotionally abused and treated like a paycheck with a pulse. 

She treated our children during this recent ordeal, pre semi-ultimatum, like crap. Afterschool activity's were not attended, meals were not properly prepared, the house was not taken care of, and yes, I do the dishes and laundry. almost primariliy at that. The most disturbing part though is that she sent them to bed at 5:30 pm one night and even though my 11 and 15 year old confirmed this she swears that this is untrue.


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## MattMatt

IIJokerII said:


> I must yet again be clear, I am not afraid to do what I have to do. In fact, I work myself up in quite the fury frequently about this.
> 
> Alas though there is that "but", and not the kind that I like. Since the semi-ultimatum she has admitted things and opened up about herself unlike any other times. This is not to say that she has changed or is reconciling. It could even be a smoke screen for delay. I will admit that she had a real eff'ed up childhood, although it is no excuse for her behavior.
> 
> And truth be told, It is hard to accept that it was another man that I was chosen over. Had she made it clear about wanting to move on without marital intrusion, an invited one at that, I'd probably have been a little hurt, asked for another try to fix things and if it didn't work out so be it.
> 
> One month before she met this idget we talked about how though things are tough we have a strong family. Little did I know otherwise. The silver lining though is that since I was able to go thru my withdrawal from my emotional connection from her I was able to see things more clearly. I was taken for granted, gaslit for years about all topics, emotionally abused and treated like a paycheck with a pulse.
> 
> She treated our children during this recent ordeal, pre semi-ultimatum, like crap. Afterschool activity's were not attended, meals were not properly prepared, the house was not taken care of, and yes, I do the dishes and laundry. almost primariliy at that. The most disturbing part though is that she sent them to bed at 5:30 pm one night and even though my 11 and 15 year old confirmed this she swears that this is untrue.


Hmm. Sounds a little odd to me. Some potential flags here for a mental health issue, such as a minor depression?


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## happi_g_more2

IIJokerII said:


> I must yet again be clear, I am not afraid to do what I have to do. In fact, I work myself up in quite the fury frequently about this.
> 
> Alas though there is that "but", and not the kind that I like. Since the semi-ultimatum she has admitted things and opened up about herself unlike any other times. This is not to say that she has changed or is reconciling. It could even be a smoke screen for delay. I will admit that she had a real eff'ed up childhood, although it is no excuse for her behavior.
> 
> And truth be told, It is hard to accept that it was another man that I was chosen over. Had she made it clear about wanting to move on without marital intrusion, an invited one at that, I'd probably have been a little hurt, asked for another try to fix things and if it didn't work out so be it.
> 
> One month before she met this idget we talked about how though things are tough we have a strong family. Little did I know otherwise. The silver lining though is that since I was able to go thru my withdrawal from my emotional connection from her I was able to see things more clearly. I was taken for granted, gaslit for years about all topics, emotionally abused and treated like a paycheck with a pulse.
> 
> She treated our children during this recent ordeal, pre semi-ultimatum, like crap. Afterschool activity's were not attended, meals were not properly prepared, the house was not taken care of, and yes, I do the dishes and laundry. almost primariliy at that. The most disturbing part though is that she sent them to bed at 5:30 pm one night and even though my 11 and 15 year old confirmed this she swears that this is untrue.


Im not trying to goad you, but you seem afraid. The reality is that people who are not afraid and who respect themselves, do not live like this.


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## EleGirl

Get the book "Surviving an Affair". It has a good plan of how to work through this. It does not matter if she admits anything. What matters are the boundaries you set in place for yourself.

And I agree, get your daughter dna tested. She might now be yours.


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## Chaparral

We do need more info. Children's ages, length of last affair, where does the other man live in relation to you, etc.

Where were you when she puts children to bed a 5:30?

If she doesn't want to reconcile why haven't you told her to move out?

Divorce and custody laws are different in different states, what state do you live in?

Is she a stay at home mom?

Second affair for her equals serial cheater, not much hope here, she HAS to go to individual counseling.

BTW, her remark about the baby girl may have meant she would have to stay with you now. But it could have meant a lot of different things. Getting a DNA test doesn't mean you would not be her dad. Have you checked blood types, that can eliminate some possibilities?


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## 6301

IIJokerII said:


> Come on internet community, get me fired up. And to say the least you all don't even know the half of it.
> 
> On yet another side note, should I call this guys mother and tell her what's going on. BTW, Her current emotional affair is separate from the POS in regards to the whole POSSIBLE baby daddy theory. I am not in denial at all, as I have never got a logical answer as to why she felt it necessary to let her ex, then current emotional AP, know that we are having a girl.


 Want fired up? Here goes. You know about her piss poor behavior and when you confront, she refuses to cooperate in any way. Your stuck on square one, she knows it. You twiddling your fingers, she knows. She's calling the shots and your letting her. 

You have only one person to blame and that's you friend because your the one doing nothing.

Wanna wake her ass up? Have her served with divorce papers and let her know that she had her chance and blew it and since she doesn't want to do anything but play games, then tell her the game is over and your through.

Maybe it will wake her ass up but to be honest, IMO she's going to continue because your all talk and no action and if that's what you want then by all means you have it, but if you want change, get a lawyer and maybe she'll get the message. If by chance you two can work it out then you can always call the divorce off and that will be you ace card


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## IIJokerII

Children are 15 (From a previous relationship, but he lives with me), 11, 7 & 6

Last affair was back in 2006-2007, about 8 months, 2 confirmed meetings, one for a day and unknown for the other, although it was when she was at work while he visited.

The current egghead lives in Simi Valley, Cal

I was at work when she put the children to bed at 5:30. I Have finally been able to get a shift change from second to first shift, in an effort to spoil the fun and better reconcile.

She seems to want to reconcile, but in her own "Way" which is BS. No transparency, Will not engage in NC and takes no initiative in talking about what happened.

I live in Connecticut, which can be a hell hole in regards to fathers or men in general, trust me I've seen it many times.

She was a stay at home mom, by her request BTW, and in fact was resistant in returning to work.


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## IIJokerII

I have also read surviving an affair, which was a rarity since I hardly read. This is where some of the confusion sets in, and deception. Soon after the "I Want out" (But not wanting to move out of course) she went and bought some books, one was SAA, another was based on past and present (A relationship book), "When good people have affairs" {Which I thought was implicitly making excuses for this type of behavior} and the last book was titles "Reconnecting" a reconciliation book. 

Now there may or may not have been a subliminal aspect to these selections. How to survive this ordeal, how to get over the past and then fix the future, and her perception of being a good person. Sounds great, except I found the receipt and presto, the other book, "Divorce for Dummies". Talk about confused indeed.


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## walkonmars

IIJokerII said:


> ...She seems to want to reconcile, but in her own "Way" which is BS. No transparency, Will not engage in NC and takes no initiative in talking about what happened....


This type of "reconciliation" is called cake-eating and rug-sweeping. 

Take your right hand and feel inside your pants to see if you have what it'll take to do what's needed. No need in proceeding if there's nothing there.


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## bfree

Why do you care if she admits it? Why do you care if she's still lying? You know what you know. Act accordingly.


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## IIJokerII

I began to note the rugsweeping bit and wrote it down. Not wanting to hide anything I left it out so as not to hide my feelings. She was none too pleased upon discovery, called me at work, ranted for a bit and then wrote something herself and then threw the paper away as for me not to see it.

It said (Says)" Take your rugsweeping and go Eff yourself, I've dealt with all of your ups & downs, listened to all of your feelings. We can go back to Separated (We haven't been really) if that's how you feel about our reconciliation. Fake as Sh1t, that's all I am to you huh.

This was impressed into the paper underneath where she wrote this, must have been pissed off to press that hard.


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## walkonmars

The note-to-note gambit is jr high stuff. You need to gather yourself... pull the 180 for yourself (see my sig line for the 180 steps) 

See a lawyer. Don't let her know about your intentions. From this point forward, you need to think of yourself. Be confident, don't engage her in "us" talk. Don't be moody or sullen - no shouting, cursing, etc. 

Work on yourself. Exercise, eat right, get yourself in order. Plan on nights out for yourself or just for you and your kids. Don't bad-mouth her to your kids. 

It can be done. You can do it. But you need resolve.


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## IIJokerII

Can the 180 be done while living together? Does it work as advertised? So to speak.


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## happi_g_more2

IIJokerII said:


> Can the 180 be done while living together? Does it work as advertised? So to speak.


i don't think it can be done effectively living under the same roof. The whole point is to make her make a decision based upon your requirements without compromise.


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## po'drunk

Man, you are scared sh!tless. Stop with all the redundant questions to distract your focus away from what it is you need to do. If you have actually read all that was recommended then you have an idea as to what that is. The only way to know if it works is to implement it. The good people here will help you fine tune it as you go, but you need to act. What you have been doing isn't working.


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## IIJokerII

I hate to admit it but maybe your right, I get that heart pounding feeling whenever I think about doing what needs to be done.


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## happi_g_more2

IIJokerII said:


> I hate to admit it but maybe your right, I get that heart pounding feeling whenever I think about doing what needs to be done.


If you have someone close to you both personally and physically (as in a neighbor or family member), tell them what you are doing and ask if they can help. Be there for things like helpin out with the kids and stuff. Start the process tomorrow at the latest.


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## happi_g_more2

oh, and btw, be prepared...honestly, mentally prepared, for her to take the D papers, sign them and tell you to f off.


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## IIJokerII

happi_g_more2 said:


> oh, and btw, be prepared...honestly, mentally prepared, for her to take the D papers, sign them and tell you to f off.


Her fighting me over the children is what worries me the most. I do not need the state of CT pulling the whole "Mother's are best for the child" garbage. This is not say that she doesn't love them, I can't make that claim, but her ability to provide for them what is needed is an open question.


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## GusPolinski

Not sure if I'm "seasoned" per se, but I'll give it a go...



IIJokerII said:


> Since going into details would consume and ungodly amount of time and energy let me just ask the following;
> 
> How do I combat an Emotional Affair? *Divorce papers*
> 
> How do I get her to admit to rug sweeping? *Divorce papers*
> 
> How do I combat the situation with the affair underground? *Divorce papers*
> 
> How do I get her to realize the damage that she has done? *Divorce papers (also, DNA the kids)*
> 
> Am I willing to kill the relationship between us? - Yes *You may have to at least bluff it (i.e. divorce papers).*
> 
> Do I want to? - No *Understandable*
> 
> Yes, Kids are involved. **
> 
> No, It has not gone Physical, but I cannot disprove phone sexting. *How can you disprove PA?*
> 
> I am the bread winner. *Leverage!*
> 
> She refuses to go transparent at all. *Red flag*
> 
> She insists he no longer feels in love with her nor her with him. (Details on this if asked can be provided) *You wrote a letter to Santa this year, didn't you?*
> 
> She still has him as a FB Friend, but a hidden one and has removed me from her list. *HUGE RED FLAG*
> 
> When I asked to see her phone I got derailed by lame excuses, one such as she needs to trust me (WTF?) and was swiftly distracted by her engaging in physical intimacy, a classic maneuver. *Yet another flag...*
> 
> After utilizing several tactics have caught her telling lies about what they talked about or what she has told him about what has happened around here since I threatened to kick her out. Hint, Liars cannot re-tell stories based on lies due to no foundation for the memory to latch onto nor can she tell the story backwards. When tasked by this she gets completely flustered and doesn't remember. **cough* BULLSH*T!!!*
> 
> And the classic line, "I need to find myself". *Help her do that. Tell her that you "saw her" walking out the front door.
> *
> I need some advice from some seasoned veterans, please fire away, hold nothing back. And if by chance there are any ladies lurking, let me know from a woman's perspective.


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## GusPolinski

happi_g_more2 said:


> i don't think it can be done effectively living under the same roof. The whole point is to make her make a decision based upon your requirements without compromise.


IMO it depends on how committed the BS is to detaching or, at the very least, forcing a change (i.e. clearing the "fog"). Having said that, and, given what I've read thus far, it seems like OP may have a trouble here. It's not for the faint of heart, and I can only imagine that having kids in the picture makes it so much worse.

Sorry you're here, Joker. Keep your chin up and keep on keepin' on. It'll get better. Or, if nothing else, easier.


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## thummper

IIJokerII said:


> *1. Come on internet community, get me fired up. And to say the least 2. you all don't even know the half of it. *
> On yet another side note, should I call this guys mother and tell her what's going on. BTW, Her current emotional affair is separate from the POS in regards to the whole POSSIBLE baby daddy theory. I am not in denial at all, as I have never got a logical answer as to why she felt it necessary to let her ex, then current emotional AP, know that we are having a girl.


1. You mean to say, you aren't already fired up?!!! 

2. Ok, so go ahead and let us know the other half of it. I don't know about all the other folk on TAM, but I've got the time to read it. 

I think your wife needs to have a serious scare thrown into her, by both you and that "intimidating" father of hers. She *must *become transparent immediately or else. And for heaven's sake, make the "or else" something to bring her up short.


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## happi_g_more2

IIJokerII said:


> Her fighting me over the children is what worries me the most. I do not need the state of CT pulling the whole "Mother's are best for the child" garbage. This is not say that she doesn't love them, I can't make that claim, but her ability to provide for them what is needed is an open question.


More excuses. Wear the pants for once. Get it done


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## MSP

You're not paralyzed by indecision. You're making a decision. The problem is, any decision made because you're being chicken isn't a good decision. The only way to make a fear lessen is to face it.


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## 2asdf2

IIJokerII said:


> Children are 15 (From a previous relationship, but he lives with me), 11, 7 & 6
> 
> Last affair was back in 2006-2007, about 8 months, 2 confirmed meetings, one for a day and unknown for the other, although it was when she was at work while he visited.
> 
> The current egghead lives in Simi Valley, Cal
> 
> I was at work when she put the children to bed at 5:30. I Have finally been able to get a shift change from second to first shift, in an effort to spoil the fun and better reconcile.
> 
> *She seems to want to reconcile, but in her own "Way" which is BS. No transparency, Will not engage in NC and takes no initiative in talking about what happened.*
> 
> I live in Connecticut, which can be a hell hole in regards to fathers or men in general, trust me I've seen it many times.
> 
> She was a stay at home mom, by her request BTW, and in fact was resistant in returning to work.


Let me start by pointing out this: _Divorce can be undone very easily._

She does not want to reconcile. She wants you to stop talking about it and *be a good cuckold*.

To have the desired effect of "waking up" a WS, serving divorce papers must be done swiftly, dramatically, with no warning. The cliche "shock and awe" applies here.

The longer you go on bickering, the more you poison the relationship, and you give your WS time to get used to the idea that divorce is going to be good for her.

All the advice you've been given so far is good.

You say you're willing to file for divorce, so do it now. You can withdraw the petition at any time if things turn around.

The longer you delay filing the less effective it will be as a tool to bring your WS back to you.

File.


----------



## Chaparral

There is no reason you can't 180. It can be even more effective living together because all of a sudden and constantly, she is now a ghost to you.

The problem with doing the 180 is people leave out major elements of it. The guys that do it right feel better almost immediately.

Number one be cheerful, just not to her but around her. To her treat her as not being there, as if she has nothing to offer to your life. Show her no emotion, particularly anger, do not anger. Make statements like, I'm sorry you feel that way, then go about your business.


----------



## Dyokemm

" The whole point is to make her make a decision based upon your requirements without compromise."

Actually, the point of the 180 is to emotionally detach yourself from your WW so YOU can see clearly and make the tough decision you need to based on logic rather than emotions and fear.

It can be more difficult while living together if you have a hard time with self-control/self-discipline.

But it can be done effectively...maybe more so as far as waking up the WS since your indifference is constantly in the their face.


----------



## BobSimmons

IIJokerII said:


> Come on internet community, get me fired up. And to say the least you all don't even know the half of it.
> 
> On yet another side note, should I call this guys mother and tell her what's going on. BTW, Her current emotional affair is separate from the POS in regards to the whole POSSIBLE baby daddy theory. I am not in denial at all, as I have never got a logical answer as to why she felt it necessary to let her ex, then current emotional AP, know that we are having a girl.


Fire yourself up pal. 

Another man was talking about knobbing my wife I'd be fired up.

Sheesh


----------



## jnj express

You have one major weapon, and it ain't the 180----that only shows her you are self sufficient, and get along w/out her-----your weapon is D/Threat of D

If she is into this family, and not wanting to face the big world alone---you need to put D, on the table

Go to bank take all the funds, except for $5, in your marital acct., and put them in an acct. with only your name on the acct.---make sure any future incoming money of yours goes into your acct. only---also cancel all her CC's.

You tell her from now on she is responsible for 1/2 of each and every bill that is part of your mge---mtg, insurances, car payments, utilities---everything

Next go on line to your states legal codes, and documents---go to the documents section and print out the D packet for your state, also print out the custody packet-----LEAVE THEM SOMEWHERE IN THE HOUSE WHERE SHE WILL FIND THEM (keep them blank, as if you have done nothing yet, but probably she will think you have gone to an atty, and discussed D)

If this doesn't move her into wanting to talk about what is bothering you about her talking to men who are not friends of your mge----then, maybe it is time to just go ahead and get your D.


----------



## jack.c

Prepare the D. papers..... then sit her down and hold her hands and say with tender eyes:
W. I dont trust you nomore... I cant live like this any longer, then leave her hands and show her the D.papers and add: W. sign them as soon as possible cause I'm done.


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, you need to read mmslp linked to below. There are things missing in your relationship or.............she's just a mental case.


----------



## arbitrator

*The old saying, "actions speak louder than words" is so prevalent here!

Repetitive EA's; Rug Sweeping, Deception, et. al. It all adds up to one very sad conclusion: You are her perpetual "Plan B." And when "Plan A" finally avails itself ~ she's going to give you the air! Now is the time to plan a course of action as well as an exit strategy for you and your children!

Whatever tangible evidence that you are now holding against her must either be played, or you must continue to accumulate enough evidence against her to make a formidable case.

That will entail checking cell phone records for calling/texting activity; FB/Social Media activity; Email; and Placing VAR's in her vehicle and any room at home where she is most likely to place or take calls.

Sorry to see you here at TAM, but you've definitely come to the right place for help and support!*


----------



## badmemory

IIJokerII said:


> Can the 180 be done while living together? Does it work as advertised? So to speak.


Like one other poster suggested, the 180 is to help *you* detach from her so that you can stay focused on your exit plan. You should read it and live it. It often has an effect on the WS, but not always. You certainly shouldn't count on it.

Ideally, a week or two of separation time from the WS can be a thought provoker to them. It helps them better understand what it feels like to lose their spouse for cheating. But that's not always possible of course. The 180 is even more important for you when immediate separation isn't an option.


----------



## Pepper123

I'm sorry OP... but there is no marriage here to save.


----------



## Thorburn

I did the 180 under the same roof. It helped me.


----------



## IIJokerII

It is amazing on how fast I am derailed during the confrontation and it is like I can't even help it either. All day I talked myself into doing the deed, dropping the hammer and voila a threat of self harm and some irritability and I come undone. If I only could get over that hump........Damn it.


----------



## anchorwatch

IIJokerII said:


> It is amazing on how fast I am derailed during the confrontation and it is like I can't even help it either. All day I talked myself into doing the deed, dropping the hammer and voila a threat of self harm and some irritability and I come undone. If I only could get over that hump........Damn it.


How about getting this thought in your head. If you don't stand up to her controlling emotional manipulations, you'll be the guy sharing his kids with every Tom, Rick and Harry she takes up with. Remember, even though they'll be spending time with your kids, they'll never have to pay a cent to raise them.


----------



## IIJokerII

I hate hearing advise I know for certain is legit and helpful yet feeling totally helpless or gutless to do what is needed. I mean, What the hell do I have to be hesitant about. Sure, I was not perfect and maybe even a tool sometimes, but seriously why can't I stand my ground.

Every god damn time I end up apologizing, ugh, it is rather disconcerting and demoralizing.


----------



## 3putt

IIJokerII said:


> I hate hearing advise I know for certain is legit and helpful yet feeling totally helpless or gutless to do what is needed. I mean, What the hell do I have to be hesitant about. Sure, I was not perfect and maybe even a tool sometimes, but seriously why can't I stand my ground.
> 
> Every god damn time I end up apologizing, ugh, it is rather disconcerting and demoralizing.


It's because she has you conditioned. You're whipped. (I don't say this to be mean...just being truthful)

The question is: What're you gonna do about it?

You need to get this book ASAP.....

http://www.amazon.com/The-Married-Life-Primer-2011/dp/1460981731

and while you're at it....

http://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339


----------



## Chaparral

IIJokerII said:


> I hate hearing advise I know for certain is legit and helpful yet feeling totally helpless or gutless to do what is needed. I mean, What the hell do I have to be hesitant about. Sure, I was not perfect and maybe even a tool sometimes, but seriously why can't I stand my ground.
> 
> Every god damn time I end up apologizing, ugh, it is rather disconcerting and demoralizing.


When you find yourself in a hole............quit digging. The worse part is every time you perform this self mutilation in front of her you lose more respect and she deveops more contempt for you.

Google NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY free download. Buy MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER and download it too. All will become clear............but its all up to you.

We have seen thousands of guys just like you. Unless you get a handle on this, it will turn out the same as those that cannot get their backbone up. Your path will get you cuckholded and quickly divorced. She sees the om as manly, you as weak.


----------



## bigfoot

You are going to have fight the guerrilla war or passive aggressive war, your choice. Avoid being on the front lines. You draft the papers, file, and serve without warning. You never have to see her before you do it. Avoid calls and contact afterwards. Just run and hide. Its okay. Not everyone can stand in the middle of the street at high noon and have a shootout. Please note, you avoid her calls, delete without reading her texts, and generally go into hiding as best you can. Do what JNExpress said. Get your money, open up new accounts, etc. She does not need to know about any of this. You can put all new money in new accounts and let old money run out of old accounts if that is easier.

Even if you can't avoid her, its okay. Once the machine is in motion, you can tell her that you are making calls to get things undone, and just blame other people for not doing what you said. Tell her there is one way to undo things.

Then to end the war, cause you are gonna crumble, you tell her that as soon as you have transparency, etc., then you know that you should drop everything. In short, it will end when she acts right. Your problem is pulling the trigger. Once the ball has been in motion and I mean after the 30 days for her to file an answer, then you can crumble. She needs to feel the pressure. being required to answer a divorce petition is a deadline that someone else imposes, not you. Until that legal deadline passes, avoid, hide, make promises to dismiss that you fail to deliver, do whatever you need to avoid confrontation. 

I bet you this, her self harm threats are bogus because all she will have to do to stop the divorce case is give you transparency, etc. Be open = case dismissed. Stonewall = case goes on. She decides either way, you are not responsible for anything. As soon as you realize that, you are going to get pissed. You are gonna realize that she would rather have you back down than do the right thing. Then you will see that her threats are empty and manipulative. 

A guerrilla style war is still a brave thing because it is a war.


----------



## anchorwatch

IIJokerII said:


> I hate hearing advise I know for certain is legit and helpful yet feeling totally helpless or gutless to do what is needed. I mean, What the hell do I have to be hesitant about. Sure, I was not perfect and maybe even a tool sometimes, but seriously why can't I stand my ground.
> 
> Every god damn time I end up apologizing, ugh, it is rather disconcerting and demoralizing.


It about personal boundaries that you don't have. That's why she does what she does. You never set your boundaries, so she takes as much as she can. You taught her she could do this because you reinforce it, by putting up with it. 

Here read this, see where you stand. 

Hers's a version you can start reading now...

Dr. Robert Glover's "No More Mr Nice Guy"

No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group


----------



## IIJokerII

I can't deny it anymore, I am indeed afraid. Not so much of losing her but the damage it would do to our children. She will not go down without a fight I can tell you that. I was trying to wait until I have that last bit of proof that she is still having her emotional affair, which seems to have gone underground something fierce. 

I just cannot think of anything else at this point except what she put me thru. I questioned so much and felt that I was doing a good job despite being so busy with work and parenting duties. I used to laugh at things like this and thought what damage could possibly come from things like this? Now I know.


----------



## WhiteRaven

IIJokerII said:


> I can't deny it anymore, I am indeed afraid. Not so much of losing her but the damage it would do to our children. She will not go down without a fight I can tell you that. I was trying to wait until I have that last bit of proof that she is still having her emotional affair, which seems to have gone underground something fierce.
> 
> I just cannot think of anything else at this point except what she put me thru. I questioned so much and felt that I was doing a good job despite being so busy with work and parenting duties. I used to laugh at things like this and thought what damage could possibly come from things like this? Now I know.


Cut your losses and D her. 180 is the key. Carry a VAR. She may get you on false DV charges. Treat her as your mortal enemy. Sorry bro, you just joined the 'BS and with kids' club.


----------



## IIJokerII

Any advice to deal with the possibility she takes a flight to cali from CT and "bond" with her "friend". I mean, it is kind of hard to swallow the fact that my bride is head over heals over some dude she met online, thru a goddamn video game at that....

Life can be a drag sometimes.


----------



## lostmyreligion

IIJokerII said:


> Any advice to deal with the possibility she takes a flight to cali from CT and "bond" with her "friend".


Change the locks and take a trip with the kids before she gets back.


----------



## WhiteRaven

IIJokerII said:


> Any advice to deal with the possibility she takes a flight to cali from CT and "bond" with her "friend". I mean, it is kind of hard to swallow the fact that my bride is head over heals over some dude she met online, thru a goddamn video game at that....
> 
> Life can be a drag sometimes.


180, gym, friends, hot chicks and anti-depressants. File D on terms of adultery. Initiate child custody proceedings and play the abandonment card. Get a shark lawyer.


----------



## anchorwatch

You fear taking action will further destabilise your life and your relationship. Here's a repeat of the news you already know, YOU DON'T HAVE A RELATIONSHIP ANY MORE. Nothing you do now will make it worse than it already is. As long as you allow her the control to steer this ship, she'll continue to head it onto the rocks, with you and your children aboard. Reach down and gather the strength to at least save you and your children from this wreck. 

Do you have any male relatives or close friends you can confide in? How about clergy, do you have any?

Did you even try to read the NMMNG pdf I gave you?


----------



## LongWalk

Put a VAR in her car and one in the house in room she is most likely to phone from.

Is it correct to say you are willing to quit this marriage, it is merely fear of a custody battle that has you worried?


----------



## Chaparral

IIJokerII said:


> Any advice to deal with the possibility she takes a flight to cali from CT and "bond" with her "friend". I mean, it is kind of hard to swallow the fact that my bride is head over heals over some dude she met online, thru a goddamn video game at that....
> 
> Life can be a drag sometimes.


If she is a stay at home mom, how would she pay for a flight to California?

Open your own bank acct. Give money only as needed for groceries or pay for everything yourself. If he will pay her way, tell her to go ahead so you can put her stuff in a storage unit and change the locks on the door.


How do you suspect she is communicating with him?

Have you checked her phone and texting?


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, I would offer her a one way ticket, then drain and close your joint bank acct.


----------



## chillymorn

go see a lawyer.

take all your financial stuff,income,assets etc ask him what your right are and realistic out come might be.


----------



## IIJokerII

Yes I have been read the NMMNG and comical enough a lot of the content is all too familiar.

She was a stay at home mom until November when I was simply tired of working nearly seven day a week and in the process still not making any more money, needless to say soon after I made this discovery I did drain my funds from our joint account and make my own. Strangely enough SHE is paranoid about me doing something awful to her and leaving her with nothing.

She has a ING account but can't access it due to another bill freezing her account which doesn't make sense but every time I ask to see what she has on record or if these funds are indeed frozen she makes no immediate effort to do so.

As far as her phone goes, it is the last item she has left that I cannot access, although I am not against taking it outright, since I bought the thing and having a friend hack it for information. It is an ATT go phone so no record or bill is available to see. When I asked her to see it she claimed that she didn't trust ME yet with some other bull crap excuses and then quickly got physical in a sexual nature, hey I'm a guy what can I say.

At this point I am not afraid to kill the marriage per se as I have said that she can go whenever she wants but the kids stay here. I have a , how shall we say, ace in the whole to force her out of here if need be, which she says I'll have to do to get her out of here. I have gotten to that point a few times but she then threatens suicide.........

To top it all off and not to sound callous, but I still have to go to work and have no one to watch my children for the few hours I'd need them to be supervised.

Hell, her family supports me or have offered neutrality in this matter save for only wanting what's best for the kids. A relative of hers called me at work, which is a big deal seeing she had to call several people for my work number and offered legal advice as she is a Lawyer in PA. 

I live in Connecticut and in most cases family law favors the women aggressively. I have most the evidence that I need in regards to her behavior; Audio, Pictures, Video, Etc. I just want that damn last bit to know for sure she is still having her emotional affair.

And please let me say thank you to all who have offered support. It means a lot really. I felt so helpless for so long but at least know what I must do, it's just getting the courage to do so. I'll work myself up into a frenzy emotionally but get instantly derailed by something she'll say or do.


----------



## GusPolinski

IIJokerII said:


> Any advice to deal with the possibility she takes a flight to cali from CT and "bond" with her "friend". I mean, it is kind of hard to swallow the fact that my bride is head over heals over some dude she met online, thru a goddamn video game at that....
> 
> Life can be a drag sometimes.


Find out which TCP/UDP ports are used by the game and block/redirect them to an invalid IP on your router. I used to do this to buddies at LAN parties. I'd get quite a laugh watching them reboot/troubleshoot, but I'd normally put an end to it once the OS reinstall CDs started coming out. Yeah, I'm a nerd.

Anyway, this might force them to communicate via more standard means. If your wife is at all tech savvy (if you said that already I didn't catch it), however, she'd probably just reset the router's config after about 30 minutes of troubleshooting.

As far as actually buying a plane ticket goes, you could cancel credit/debit cards. But honestly, maybe it's better if she just hops on a plan and comes back home to new door locks...?


----------



## Chaparral

The next time, call the police when she threatens suicide. They pretty much have to have her evaluated. Keep her phone while they have her and go tphrough it.

It is totally inappropriate to do nothing when someone threatens suicide. Even if its a bluff, you stop her from manipulating you that way.

I hope you realize by letting her control you it makes her contempt for you grow and grow.

Download MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER linked to below. Its also available at amazon. Read the reviews, its the most recommended book on this site for men. You do not understand the male, female dynamic and you are killing your marriage by just winging it.


----------



## aug

IIJokerII said:


> It is amazing on how fast I am derailed during the confrontation and it is like I can't even help it either. All day I talked myself into doing the deed, dropping the hammer and *voila a threat of self harm *and some irritability and I come undone. If I only could get over that hump........Damn it.




Get a VAR (voice activated recorder). When she threatens with self harm, you have proof you can use against her for child custody/support.

Make sure to make copies of any proof and keep them away from the house.


Beware that Connecticut is an all-party consent state.


----------



## IIJokerII

I can't lie, blowing this up and using the "D" card is much harder than I thought it would be. 

Should I resolve to just taking her phone and hacking it so I can obtain the evidence. She, like me, will only admit anything when trapped by the truth. She won't give me her phone but I did pay for it, without my knowledge as well as the minutes and airtime as well so it technically is my property, right?

A key logger is useless since she won't use the computer.


----------



## anchorwatch

It's minutes now? Who cares who's minutes or phone they are. Are you running that household or getting walked allover like a schmuck?

It always amazes me how someone who knows they're in a bad situation, fears taking action because they are afraid of the unknown. 

Do you think Churchill would worry about who's minutes they were? 

Shall we call you Chamberlin ? 


Joker, 

A lot of us have seen this play out many times in the past. You are living under tremble conditions, if you don't act in your own best interest, no one else will. I assure you, your inability to act will allow this to only get worse. I will also tell you that your fears and behaviors are why she doesn't respect you or your feelings. That is why she will never comply with your request or concerns until she is in fear of losing something. She knows she can do what she wants because she can control you with fear. She also entertains herself with other men because she no longer respects you as a man she would want that from. 

Do not kid yourself, this is a no way to live, my friend. You need help to act, but you won't ask until its too late or because you're too ashamed. Don't wait. Robert_Glover's No More Mr Nice Guy


----------



## See_Listen_Love

IIJokerII said:


> I can't lie, blowing this up and using the "D" card is much harder than I thought it would be.
> 
> Should I resolve to just taking her phone and hacking it so I can obtain the evidence. She, like me, will only admit anything when trapped by the truth. She won't give me her phone but I did pay for it, without my knowledge as well as the minutes and airtime as well so it technically is my property, right?
> 
> A key logger is useless since she won't use the computer.


Listen, women don't like indecisive doormat husbands.

You take the good advice that is given here, or not, and stay the cuckold in this EA/PA.

Fear will destroy you. Facing your fears and taking action will save you.


----------



## IIJokerII

Here's an update. Lately she has been re-engaged in her little online world sans her online EA AP. This has been a very difficult issue to deal with since she claims that this Game was just something fun to do and that she did like it, which is something that we played together during our free time and seemed to enjoy together. 

Although she has been confirmed to not be spending time with her EA AP she has inevidabily made new friends with mostly guys but seeing that this is a male dominated genre it is none too surprising and she claims that she makes it clear that inappropriate joking flirting or otherwise is not to be done or partaken in. 

So what problems does this cause really? Well, All I hear is that god damn flirty laugh-at-every-thing voice, an absurd amount of energy devoted to this medium and not once have I been even asked to join her in this activity. 

So as a few days or so have gone by I have been seeing what may be going on from the distance per se. I noticed a FB message where one individual, who started the conversation, made small talk then made a comment about how beautiful she is, to which I know she only said thanks. Meanwhile I am still not friends with her in this social network. Earlier yesterday after I got home from work I made a comment about how I am more irritaed that when I try to engage her in anyway I am met with the following;

"Your too in-my-face"
"I'm tired of talking"
"There is nothing for us to do"

Now to clarify the contradiction part is as such that she, during MC and past discussions and arguements, she made it clear she went wayward cause I checked out, made my priorities conflicting to her needs, that I never made time for her or provided my undivided attention. But now that I have done these things I have become, supposedly, clingy, needy and annoying. When I asked her about not getting asked about joining her little online sessions was because, for a reason she did not know or provide, I am annoying.

So I decided not to respond at that moment with my true feelings of rejection really, got the kids off the bus and made preperations for dinner, whch My children have loved since I have been home nights. Did some laundry, cleaned up Etc. Well, she napped, got up made some small talk, asked whats wrong to which I replied "Nothing" in the hopes she may have been able to see her comments and statements and the many negative ways they come across.

I end up taking our oldest son to the ER for a skin rash, come home hours later to see her playing this damn game, my children still not prepped for bed, with books in their hands ready to be read to them to boot. I read them their stories, get them in bed, and in passing she asks if I wanna play. Now mere hours earlier I was "Annoying" but now, that it suited her needs, she was willing to play as I am sure a few text messages while I was at the hospital for her to get online more than likely spurred the need to play. This made me mre than angry since I was blasted for this sort of behavior as well as her wanting to spend what little free time together doing this activity. Her asking me to join was no doubt her way of throwing me a bone to make me feel included.

Now she works nights now and has been doing the whole online bit for about a few weeks, in the morning while the kids are at school. When I was doing this with her before DDay she claimed that this lack of doing things outside of the house pissed her off and made her feel as if she couldn't do them and made me feel responsable for her not doing them. Now with all this free time she has STILL not done these things....

So later last night, I don't mean to go all Quiten Tarantino and all, She asks if I'd like her to turn the thing off to do something together. Of course I wanted her to but I wanted her to want to and made this clear. After an hour or so of not getting the hint I lost my shyt and spoke my mind. To which the overexaggerated responses began to unfurl.

But Just because I do not want to come across as crazy I'd like to take a quick poll.

You and your spouse have the evening together off which rarely happens. You make yourself available yet your spouse decides to spend additional time with her freinds vs time with you. She says she'll not participate if you ask her not to. Which of the following should be expected or done;

A) You let them know what your needs are and make what will invariably be perceived as a selfish demand for him/her to spend time with you.
B) You say no, thats alright, in the hopes she realises what is more inportant
C) None of the above as he/she shoud naturally have some enthusiasm about spending their free time with you.


----------



## Philat

D. Throw the effin' computer out the window.


----------



## anchorwatch

IIJokerII said:


> A) You let them know what your needs are and make what will invariably be perceived as a selfish demand for him/her to spend time with you.
> 
> *It is not a selfish demand to express yourself!
> 
> It's putting your expectations of the relationship in a clear and concise manner for your partner to know what you need from them, in order for you to want to reciprocate. If that's perceived as a selfish demand, its only more evidence she doesn't want to be in a relationship with you.*
> 
> B) You say no, thats alright, in the hopes she realises what is more inportant
> 
> *This is a "covert contract".
> 
> One where you think she should naturally know what you need in the relationship. Without expressing exactly what you want how will she know? So you sit there in anguish, building anger, looking like a malcontent to her. How attractive do you think that is? *
> 
> C) None of the above as he/she shoud naturally have some enthusiasm about spending their free time with you.
> 
> *How passive aggressive can you be?
> 
> Your problems all stem from one thing. You are a conflict avoider. She has been exposed to your behavior for so long she is acting accordingly. She doesn't respect you, because you don't respect yourself enough. Someone like that does not make for a good husband or parent.*


The bad news is, you are your own worst enemy. 

The good news is, you are your own worst enemy. 


You are your marriage problem. You need to fix you first, in order to fix your relationships. Get help. Find a counselor to help you with your conflict avoidance. Start working on you and all the life pieces will start to fall into place. 

Do you have a problem with procrastination too? Did you read the book I gave you? No Nore Mr Nice Guy?


----------



## IIJokerII

Yes I have been readi it and frightening enough most of the descriptions fit me to a tee. I got to the point about standing up for my own needs whatever they mey be and that the side effect of my behavior change is either my marriage will thrive or be put to a long overdue death, which I think the latter is the only option at this point.

I have printed out Divorce papers and have the intention of presenting them tomorrow. I have put up with the abuse long enough. And the feeling is scary as hell.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

She is a junkie. Treat this like your are with an addict.


----------



## The Middleman

IIJokerII said:


> She still has him as a FB Friend, but a hidden one and has removed me from her list.


Block Facebook's aiP address at your router. This is what I did when my wife 'reconnected' with an Ex.



IIJokerII said:


> When I asked to see her phone I got derailed by lame excuses, one such as she needs to trust me (WTF?) and was swiftly distracted by her engaging in physical intimacy, a classic maneuver.




Take her phone and 'lose it'. Fling it against a rock or just stomp on it. That stops the texting.





IIJokerII said:


> And the classic line, "I need to find myself" .




I would tell her to take all the time she needs to find herself .... Right after you have her served.


----------



## Rushwater

IIJokerII said:


> But Just because I do not want to come across as crazy I'd like to take a quick poll.
> 
> You and your spouse have the evening together off which rarely happens. You make yourself available yet your spouse decides to spend additional time with her freinds vs time with you. She says she'll not participate if you ask her not to. Which of the following should be expected or done;
> 
> A) You let them know what your needs are and make what will invariably be perceived as a selfish demand for him/her to spend time with you.
> B) You say no, thats alright, in the hopes she realises what is more inportant
> C) None of the above as he/she shoud naturally have some enthusiasm about spending their free time with you.


Are you freaking kidding me? First you ask TAM members to "fire" you up because the prospect of your wife banging another guy cannot; and now, you are polling us? You are either completely full of crap, or you are the most impressive CUCKOLD of all time! If you are a genuine BS, then you need to BEG one of your parents, siblings, or friends to slap the sh!t out of you, and back to reality. I'm sorry, but you do not sound like a genuinely, grief-stricken betrayed spouse. You're light-hearted comments and questions sound more like you are querying for a book or something. If not, then it is totally understandable why your wife does not look at you like a man and treats you like soap on a rope. Over the past month, you have taken exactly ZERO steps to help your horrific excuse for a marriage. Please, if you will not listen to people, here on TAM, what are you looking for??


----------



## IIJokerII

Rushwater said:


> Are you freaking kidding me? First you ask TAM members to "fire" you up because the prospect of your wife banging another guy cannot; and now, you are polling us? You are either completely full of crap, or you are the most impressive CUCKOLD of all time! If you are a genuine BS, then you need to BEG one of your parents, siblings, or friends to slap the sh!t out of you, and back to reality. I'm sorry, but you do not sound like a genuinely, grief-stricken betrayed spouse. You're light-hearted comments and questions sound more like you are querying for a book or something. If not, then it is totally understandable why your wife does not look at you like a man and treats you like soap on a rope. Over the past month, you have taken exactly ZERO steps to help your horrific excuse for a marriage. Please, if you will not listen to people, here on TAM, what are you looking for??



Your right Rush, your right. I am afraid. Not of losing her anymore but what life will be like alone. Yes, I'll have my children and their love will help me cope and give me purpose. But as I am sure seeing her simply just move on so quickly after 13 years is really gonna sting. But then again that means I did not lose anything.

No, I am not writing a book or making this crap up. After reading your post Rush I took some initiative and went on the offensive. I called the OM's mother, and sent his step-mother an email asking both, politely, to contact the OM and ask him to detach himself from my marriage. He of course sent her a text saying what I did and she became furious and was more concerned about getting other's involved than my feelings over what she has put our family thru, which has been a lot.

I contacted a lawyer's office today to schedule a consultation. I also got a VAR and had left it in the house today to see what she may be doing while no one is around as seemingly nothing seems to get done. And her secrecy about her phone is at Def-con 1 levels. Since my Debit card paid for it and the service as well I am thinking of taking it soon so I can get the answers that I need. 

Yeah, I'm really scared and not afraid to admit it either. I have never done this before. Please excuse my redundancy but I have been heavily gas lit and indoctrinated to thinking her "Problems" and other "Issues" were actually my fault. Needless to say it has been difficult to resist.


----------



## turnera

IIJokerII said:


> not once have I been even asked to join her in this activity.
> 
> Meanwhile I am still not friends with her in this social network.


Why not? Why do you not just join?

And why not this: "Wife, I won't continue to share you with other men who enjoy flirting with you and I won't continue to watch you flirt back. Let's start making arrangements to divorce, unless you're ready to stop."


----------



## turnera

IIJokerII said:


> She asks if I'd like her to turn the thing off to do something together. Of course I wanted her to but I wanted her to want to and made this clear.


"Of course I want you to. I want to spend every spare minute with you because you mean the world to me and I'm crazy about you."

Instead, she got 'Get the F off that thing and show me some respect!'

Which one would YOU respond to?


----------



## Clay2013

Your continued inability to put your foot down is the answer she is looking for. Your choosing to not doing anything serious about it just shows her it is ok to continue her behavior. What you fear most is what you are bringing upon yourself. No woman will want to be with a man that has no backbone.


----------



## IIJokerII

Update time, and I don't know where to begin. Well, I called the OM's mother and sent a FB message to his step-mother and that drew a very telling response. He, naturally, texted her on what I did and she became beyond furious. Her excuse was that she did not want more people drawn into this. 

I also, after a few weeks of her getting irratable at nearly everything I did or didn't do per se I took her phone just before she went to work, now I paid for it and the service, without my initial knowledge and her reaction to this.........

I am missing a front pane of my front screen door, she destroyed several personal and irreplaceable possesions of value, like say a Mug my children made for me last fathers day, a Snow Globe we got for our 10 year mark that had a bride and groom within it and tossed the nearly every room in the house. 

took me hours to clean it up. 

She has also become angry that I will not release any proof or other items I have on this affair. SHe angrily proclaims "It's over!!!!" whenever I push to see behind closed doors yet STILL will not show me her E-mails, Cell phone or anything else. Unfortunateley she was able to get the phone back....

Life shouldn't be this hard, shoud it?


----------



## bandit.45

You should have called the police, made a report, and then gone and gotten a restraining order against her. its not that hard.


----------



## Clay2013

bandit.45 said:


> You should have called the police, made a report, and then gone and gotten a restraining order against her. its not that hard.


My XW has a permanent no trespassing order over her doing that. She pushed passed the kids while I was at work and started taking things off the walls (Pictures and Christmas Decorations). 

It took a day for the cops to get to her but they made it clear she was no longer welcome. They even told her if she parks on my side of the street they will come arrest her. Its been seven years and still still parks on the other side of the street to get them. I still smile when I think about it. 


Clay


----------



## Machiavelli

IIJokerII said:


> Update time,...Life shouldn't be this hard, shoud it?


When's the divorce final?


----------



## IIJokerII

Ugh, it hasn't begun yet. I keep getting what is called Hoovering, sucked back into it. I did however clear my last obstacle concerning child care so theres that. 

I told her if she wants to just walk, but the children are staying... This is not met with enthusiasm. Then she calmly claims to want to work things out, we talk for about three hours or so, feel better but repeat the cycle of her reluctance to come clean, become transparent or do the heavy lifting, or more accureatley any lifting, and then it starts all over again. Hell, I didn't even get a Fathers day card from her nor did she even say "Happy Father's Day".

If I wasn;t in CT I would have began the process already.


----------



## GusPolinski

Joker, I really don't understand what you're so confused about. There can be no reconciliation unless the both of you are 110% committed to it; for her that starts with *absolute, compete, and total transparency*. F*ck man... she should have offered that freely but, since she didn't, she should have at least consented to it once you insisted upon it. *Her refusal to do this should tell you all that you need to know -- she's still lying to you.*

Hit her w/ divorce papers and, if it's an option to you (and you have proof to back it up, sounds like you may not), cite infidelity as the cause.

Establish the 180. Don't engage her at all regarding anything that doesn't involve the kids' schedules, day-to-day house-keeping stuff, etc. Don't talk w/ her about your relationship at all. Additionally, it seems like she knows that all she has to do to pull you back in when you start to detach or *shudder* grow a spine and start to stand up for yourself is to initiate "sexytime". Stop falling for this.

Once she's gotten a taste of Joker-180, she might press you to attend marriage counseling. If so, tell her that the only way that you'll consider it is if she commits to 100% transparency, which means handing over passwords to everything -- all devices, all e-mail accounts, and all social media accounts. She might say something like "OK, but give me a couple of days..." NO. This will only give her time to delete any evidence. Once you have this access, if you get the sense that she's deleted e-mails, FB messages, etc, you immediately call off MC and proceed w/ divorce.

Additionally, you will temporarily take complete ownership of her social media accounts so that you can "purge" them of unwanted friends as you see fit -- OM is gone and blocked, any suspected OMs are gone and blocked, toxic friends are gone and blocked, you are no longer "unfriended", etc.

Oh, and most importantly...

*DNA your kids.* If you get a negative result back for _any of them_, you pull chocks and aggressively proceed w/ divorce. This does not, however, mean that you stop being a father to your children. You've raised them and, to them, you're Dad. Don't stop being Dad.

Just stop being your WW's doormat husband.


----------



## NotLikeYou

IIJokerII said:


> Hell, I didn't even get a Fathers day card from her nor did she even say "Happy Father's Day".
> 
> If I wasn;t in CT I would have began the process already.


IIJokerII, these two sentences perfectly demonstrate why you are paralyzed by indecision, as your thread title notes.

You have serious, gigantic problems in your marriage. And, rather than keep discussing them, you choose to focus on......

"Darn it, she didn't get me a Father's Day card! Heck. Shoot. Gosh Dang it!!!!!"

If ONLY she had gotten you a Father's Day card! IF ONLY! That was the ONE WAY she could have shown you that she really, really cared.

Yet much more importantly, you can focus your shriveled outrage on this neglectful insult, and not pay attention to all the other problems that you are allowing to continue in the relationship because YOU won't make any changes.

But you have a good reason for not making changes, at least.....

You live in CT!

Darn your bad luck. If only you lived in one of the other 49 states, or DC, or Canada or Mexico or Europe, man, that bitc, oops, sorry, almost called her a naughty word! What if she heard me type that???? She might look at me mean!

Anyway, yeah, if only you lived ANYWHERE else, well, by golly, you would have shown her the door by now. And opened it and closed it for her, wiped her shoes on your sleeve, and asked her how high she wanted you to jump.

Look, dude. You have gotten great advice on this thread, 99% of which you have ignored. The other 1% you have agreed was good advice and then not done that, either. 

I'm sure every single person who has commented here feels really bad for you with respect to the situation you're in. Wouldn't you rather that they feel GOOD for you, when they read an update where you have DONE SOMETHING and MADE SOME PROGRESS and GOTTEN BETTER?

You should try doing that- you might even find that YOU feel better.


----------



## Just Joe

IIJokerII said:


> Ugh, it hasn't begun yet. I keep getting what is called Hoovering, sucked back into it. I did however clear my last obstacle concerning child care so theres that.
> 
> I told her if she wants to just walk, but the children are staying... This is not met with enthusiasm. Then she calmly claims to want to work things out, we talk for about three hours or so, feel better but repeat the cycle of her reluctance to come clean, become transparent or do the heavy lifting, or more accureatley any lifting, and then it starts all over again. Hell, I didn't even get a Fathers day card from her nor did she even say "Happy Father's Day".
> 
> If I wasn;t in CT I would have began the process already.


I don't live that far from you.

Do you want me to come over and do your talking for you?

What is the problem? She only does this stuff because she knows she can. Did you ever see that reality show, where people call the super-nanny to come over and help them get their kids to listen to them? That's what you remind me of.

First you told all of your family about it, hoping that they could fix it for you.

Next you came here looking for the magic words that you could say, abra-cadabra, hoping that could fix it for you, but no such words exist.

Next you told other man's family about it, hoping that they could fix it for you.

You are running out of people to ask.

There are people you can hire to do it for you. They are called lawyers and process servers.

But I really think, for your own personal growth, this is something you are going to have to learn to do by yourself. Not just about the cheating, but about everything else in your life. Working 7 days a week and doing all the dishes and laundry and housecleaning, while your wife plays a video game.

You are going to have to learn to stand up for yourself.

Children are keen observers. What do you want them to learn from the way you behave?


----------



## Just Joe

IIJokerII said:


> Update time,
> 
> I took her phone and her reaction to this.........
> 
> I am missing a front pane of my front screen door, she destroyed several personal and irreplaceable possesions of value, like say a Mug my children made for me last fathers day, a Snow Globe we got for our 10 year mark that had a bride and groom within it and tossed the nearly every room in the house.
> 
> *took me hours to clean it up. *
> 
> Life shouldn't be this hard, shoud it?


She messed up the whole house, and you cleaned it up?

Why not just leave it be and let her clean it up?


----------



## Just Joe

My apologies if I came off as a little mean-spirited. But I think I'm angrier over what your wife is doing to you than you are.

You keep posting stuff like, "her reaction was 'telling,' " as if you are still trying to figure out what she is up to.

Someone posted here about a voice-activated recorder. Have you tried putting one or two of those in the house and one in her car? There's a guy here who posts very detailed instructions, even tells what model to buy and where to buy it, how to place it, like a "How to Catch Cheaters for Dummies" book. Maybe if you hear what she's saying to this guy when you're not around that will provide some motivation to take action.

Did you also mention your wife bought the How to Divorce for Dummies book? Why don't you buy a copy of your own and leave it under her pillow?

Speaking of pillows, through all of this craziness, are you two still getting busy?


----------



## arbitrator

IIJokerII said:


> *How do I combat an Emotional Affair?
> *
> 
> *No, It has not gone Physical, but I cannot disprove phone sexting.*


*Well, let me assure of one basic certainty. 

No one ever got pregnant from only being involved solely in an Emotional Affair!*


----------



## 3putt

Just Joe said:


> Someone posted here about a voice-activated recorder. Have you tried putting one or two of those in the house and one in her car? There's a guy here who posts very detailed instructions, even tells what model to buy and where to buy it, how to place it, like a "How to Catch Cheaters for Dummies" book. Maybe if you hear what she's saying to this guy when you're not around that will provide some motivation to take action.


Joker, you should also have a VAR on you at all times in her presence. With the way she is acting, you are a prime candidate for false domestic charges being brought against you. Don't take this lightly. It's happened way too many times before.


----------



## GusPolinski

Cabsy said:


> *It's unfortunate she's pregnant*, but her stress is caused by her attitude and behavior, and not by what appear to be reasonable actions taken on your part.
> 
> It seems to me you have all the power, but you're giving it all away, or at least you're letting her take it from you. How can you tolerate her behavior? It's so selfish and entitled... and down right mean... that a Father's Day card should be the least of your concerns. If she gave you a card, at this point, I would suspect it as a trap, i.e., she wants or needs something from you.
> 
> I understand wanting things to work for the kids and the dream of the relationship you once had, but sometimes it's better to split, and split before more damage is done. I say this both as a dad in a R and the product of a broken marriage. When I was a child, I saw things like what your wife did, and worse, and I've never forgotten. You can't throw temper tantrums, hit/break things, probably curse, etc in a child's home. She doesn't sound like a very good role model.
> 
> She is scared. You're close to realizing the truth. Her carefully constructed reality is crashing around her, and you're letting her intimidate you. You're letting your fear paralyze you. If you really want to divorce, then go ahead, and if you really want to reconcile, then tell her the way things *must* go down for that to happen.


Whooaaaaa... She's pregnant? Did I miss that?!?


----------



## Cabsy

It's unfortunate she's pregnant, but her stress is caused by her attitude and behavior, and not by what appear to be reasonable actions taken on your part.

It seems to me you have all the power, but you're giving it all away, or at least you're letting her take it from you. How can you tolerate her behavior? It's so selfish and entitled... and down right mean... that a Father's Day card should be the least of your concerns. If she gave you a card, at this point, I would suspect it as a trap, i.e., she wants or needs something from you.

I understand wanting things to work for the kids, and the dream of the relationship you once had; but sometimes it's better to split, and split before more damage is done. I say this both as a dad in a R and the product of a broken marriage. When I was a child, I saw things like what your wife did, and worse, and I've never forgotten. You can't throw temper tantrums, hit/break things, probably curse, etc in a child's home. She doesn't sound like a very good role model.

She is scared. You're close to realizing the truth. Her carefully constructed reality is crashing around her, and you're letting her intimidate you. You're letting your fear paralyze you. If you really want to divorce, then go ahead, and if you really want to reconcile, then tell her the way things *must* go down for that to happen.


> FDR: So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.


Remember that when you get Hoovered.


----------



## Cabsy

GusPolinski said:


> Whooaaaaa... She's pregnant? Did I miss that?!?


Perhaps I misread something in the beginning of the thread and got it confused with another. If so, my bad. I've got a few threads up


----------



## Machiavelli

Cabsy said:


> Perhaps I misread something in the beginning of the thread and got it confused with another. If so, my bad. I've got a few threads up


Understandable. We see the same issues over and over here. The same scripts reposted with new names. And the BHs always think their situation is totally unique and we don't understand. Who can keep them straight?


----------



## BobSimmons

This goes on as long as the OP wants it, usually 100 pages of mega beta, softly softly, indecision in the face of unrelenting lack of remorse.

This guy seems to talk a good game and is very descriptive yet strangely docile. She smashed up stuff and showed extreme violence, yet he cleaned it up? Cue indignation and DIVORCE HER.. I strangely don't see paralysis here...something else entirely


----------



## IIJokerII

I Fondly appreciate the honesty, however brutal, yet true it may be. So lets get to details on certain unanswered questions.

Living in Connecticut, this is not the place where common logic or what's "best" for the child applies. The courts do not take into account about who was the aggressor or primary party in the dissolving of the marriage, in most cases, and do not care what the circumstances are. Could I lose my house, maybe, and yes it is my house. Although we were married when I bought the home I was the one who moved everything into it, worked to pay for it, mostly, and maintained it and kept it clean. I did not realize the sheer lopsided caretaking between me and her due to my indoctrination of her needs. I did the dishes, the laundry, cooking, cleaning, and played with the children whenever possible. This while also working usually 6 days a week to pay for it all.

Yes, I cleaned up her rage mess, after I took photos and explained to our eldest son what had happened due to me taking her phone. He, like myself, is also convinced she is lying, since he see's the same sh!t I do. This is from an 11 year old. Besides, I can't have a 7 & 6 year exposed to this environment.

The preggers thing is not related to this affair but one of 7 years past that was a proven EA but more than obvious PA (Although I will grow wings before she ever admits it despite the evidence). I know she met him on 2 separate occasions at least (Her Ex-BF) once during her work hours (FCKR brought her flowers on Valentines day) and once was a lovely all day adventure where she claimed to be at a training course for her job. I found this out weeks later on D-Day (Day after my Birthday) and laid into her. She was willing to reconcile and denied anything but kissing happened (Uh-huh). However soon after she was pregnant and of course I asked if this child was mine, which she claimed it was. Her Much later though I found and several E-mails she sent to him to which she informed him she was pregnant, followed up by "Looks like we're having a Girl, I guess things happen for a reason". I have gotten about five different answers save for the obvious one. most people agree with my perception that she did sleep with him and simply didn't know. I did eventually get a DNA test done for my Daughter and thankfully the results were in my favor. I have not told her I had the test done....Yet. But she is not Pregnant now. Sorry to Quinton Tarentino my story here.

I talked to a Local police officer who said although a VAR cannot be used in court it can be used for personal use, which I have one on hand. She also said that if I called for any issue; Threats or attempts at suicide or Domestic disturbance that impartial or unbiased assessment of the situation would be used. Made me feel a little better. I did put a VAR in the house and her Van and it came back clean. However I believe she is playing it safe rather than risk calling and is texting only.

As for the Fathers day card, it is not about needing to feel loved, or whatever else one may think but it is an indication of effort, even if it just a little. Hell, just getting a "Happy Father's Day" would have been good enough. 

SO much more to say....


----------



## Gabriel

You wanted it rough, so here you go.

Let's see...

Your wife is a serial cheater.
Your wife is still having at least one affair.
Your wife is mentally unstable and trashes the house when her affair might be discovered.
Your younger daughter is likely not your kid.
You are miserable.
Your kids (or at least the older ones) are catching on.

And yet you are still afraid of leaving her for some reason.

Why? How could your life or any future relationship be any worse?


----------



## turnera

So you're divorcing?


----------



## Cabsy

> As for the Fathers day card, it is not about needing to feel loved, or whatever else one may think but it is an indication of effort, even if it just a little. Hell, just getting a "Happy Father's Day" would have been good enough.


I get it. You seem to be a good father, so if it helps, happy belated Father's Day. 

With regards to the kids, I just want to emphasize again that they're going to pick up on what's happening around them, if they haven't already, regardless of whether you stay or go. If you keep tolerating your wife's behavior instead of putting her in check, it's only a matter of time. Stand up for your kids if you won't stand up for yourself. Stand up for your family. Who will the kids look up to if their mom cheats, lies, and smashes things and their father just keeps trying to clean up her messes by himself? What lessons will they learn?

The problem is with her, and it only continues for as long as you tolerate it. If you don't want to divorce, then at least throw down the gauntlet and don't back down.


----------



## TRy

IIJokerII said:


> I know she met him on 2 separate occasions at least (Her Ex-BF) once during her work hours (FCKR brought her flowers on Valentines day) and once was a lovely all day adventure where she claimed to be at a training course for her job. I found this out weeks later on D-Day (Day after my Birthday) and laid into her. She was willing to reconcile and denied anything but kissing happened (Uh-huh).


1) Bringing flowers to a married woman at her work is the other man (OM) publicly claiming her. This is very disrespectful to you and your marraige. The OM would not have done this without earlier encouragement from your wife.

2) Lying to you that she was at a work related training course so the she could spend the day with the OM, even if it did not go further than kissing (which is highly unlikely), is her dating another man. Married woman do not date other men. That is just part of the deal. In her marriage vow she promised to forsake all others. She broke her marraige vows.

3) When you state "She was willing to reconcile" it shows that you have it backwards. The question should have been if you were "willing to reconcile". She was the one that cheated, not you. You did nothing wrong for her to not want to reconcile. As a cheater of course she would want to cake eat. She gets to cheat with other men, while having you there to pay the bills, take care of the children, clean the house, etc. Again, why would her being "willing to reconcile" ever be in question?


----------



## IIJokerII

Ya know, I never thought of it that way before. What the Phk have I been thinking all these years?!!


----------



## GusPolinski

IIJokerII said:


> Ya know, I never thought of it that way before. What the Phk have I been thinking all these years?!!


Could it be that we're finally starting to break through? So...

D. N. A. Your. Kids. Now.


----------



## jack.c

IIJokerII said:


> Ya know, I never thought of it that way before. What the Phk have I been thinking all these years?!!


Never late to get back up on your feet!
Take a deep breath and start doing as suggested by most....


----------



## IIJokerII

I'm sorry if I have come across as reserved or dismissive.....or more accurately a pu55y.

I've just never experienced something like this before....

It sucks.


----------



## turnera

I told my H when we married that if he ever cheated on me, he would never see me OR our kids again; I'd do whatever it takes for us to disappear from his life. I asked him recently why he never cheated, and he quoted that one statement back to me; 35 years later.


----------



## Cabsy

IIJokerII said:


> I'm sorry if I have come across as reserved or dismissive.....or more accurately a pu55y.
> 
> I've just never experienced something like this before....
> 
> It sucks.


It does suck. A realization you have to make, and maybe you're making that realization, is that taking the bull by the horns is the best option. You don't have control over her actions or what has happened in the past, but you can decide what you will/won't allow going forward. When you let things slide it sends a message. "Keep doing what you're doing - I won't stop you." When you back down, she gets the message. When she keeps doing you wrong and you forgive her or back down from real consequences, she gets the message. 

You're scared of losing something, and that something might not be there anymore. It probably isn't. Even if it is there, you have to realize that being at peace with losing what you have is the only way you'll ever get anything back... with or without her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

IIJokerII said:


> I'm sorry if I have come across as reserved or dismissive.....or more accurately a pu55y.
> 
> I've just never experienced something like this before....
> 
> It sucks.



I hear extreme conditioning in you to accept the unacceptable.

Your main role as father is to protect those kids from your abusive wife. You have every right at this point to deal with her in a calm but extremely intentional hardball fashion. You do not have to apologize for holding her accountable in any shape form or fashion OR FEEL GUILTY. Before making the next move, file divorce papers with a restraining order since you have pictures of the damage. Put those kids in a safe environment... that is priority #1. If she doesn't give a rats A** about their safety... that is exactly where you need to DOMINATE. and I DO mean DOMINATE.


----------



## IIJokerII

Update time!

Yesterday morning after we talked for a bit she did something that took me by surprise and showed me, finally, the text messages between them. It was simultaneously a relief and infuriating.

Although It appears that the relationship did die out it was not due to her doing the right thing and standing up for her marriage. But more so that he became busy with work and could no longer keep up with the and sustain the amount of time they were talking. Yes, I was, am, plan B. 

Our MC sessions were on one occasion referenced and mocked.

She made it clear to point out that she thought it was funny to make me seem paranoid, to which he of course also thought it was funny.

She relayed to him whenever I pushed back or after me and her would fight about this situation. He'd offer his emotional support and blah blah. But the gag here is that they both took not only offense but also surprise by me having the nerve to have a problem. I have never witnessed such delusional thinking before. 

We can chalk this up to false reconciliation. And before I get bombed with the I told you so's I did not say with oblivious feeling that I trusted her. 

There was a lot of little other Sh1tty things, the standard stuff I am sure. I was numb after she showed me the texts and could clearly see the she had the shakes while doing so, although I am sure it was more from what my reaction would be rather than some moral BS about hurting one's spouse.


----------



## Suspecting2014

IIJokerII said:


> Update time!
> 
> Yesterday morning after we talked for a bit she did something that took me by surprise and showed me, finally, the text messages between them. It was simultaneously a relief and infuriating.
> 
> Although It appears that the relationship did die out *it was not due to her doing the right thing *and standing up for her marriage. But more so that he became busy with work and could no longer keep up with the and sustain the amount of time they were talking. Yes, *I was, am, plan B*.
> 
> Our MC sessions were on one occasion referenced and mocked.
> 
> She made it clear to point out that *she thought it was funny to make me seem paranoid, to which he of course also thought it was funny*.
> 
> She relayed to him whenever I pushed back or after me and her would fight about this situation. He'd offer his emotional support and blah blah. But the gag here is that they both took not only offense but also surprise by me having the nerve to have a problem. I have never witnessed such delusional thinking before.
> 
> We can chalk this up to false reconciliation. And before I get bombed with the I told you so's I did not say with oblivious feeling that I trusted her.
> 
> There was a lot of little other Sh1tty things, the standard stuff I am sure. I was numb after she showed me the texts and could clearly see the she had the shakes while doing so, although I am sure it was more from what my reaction would be rather than some moral BS about hurting one's spouse.


Get rid of her pronto!!

Do 180

File divorce


----------



## Suspecting2014

IIJokerII said:


> Update time!
> 
> Yesterday morning after we talked for a bit she did something that took me by surprise and showed me, finally, the text messages between them. It was simultaneously a relief and infuriating.
> 
> Although It appears that the relationship did die out it was not due to her doing the right thing and standing up for her marriage. But more so that he became busy with work and could no longer keep up with the and sustain the amount of time they were talking. Yes, I was, am, plan B.
> 
> *Our MC sessions were on one occasion referenced and mocked.*
> 
> She made it clear to point out that she thought it was funny to make me seem paranoid, to which he of course also thought it was funny.
> 
> She relayed to him whenever I pushed back or after me and her would fight about this situation. He'd offer his emotional support and blah blah. But the gag here is that they both took not only offense but also surprise by me having the nerve to have a problem. I have never witnessed such delusional thinking before.
> 
> We can chalk this up to false reconciliation. And before I get bombed with the I told you so's I did not say with oblivious feeling that I trusted her.
> 
> There was a lot of little other Sh1tty things, the standard stuff I am sure. I was numb after she showed me the texts and could clearly see the she had the shakes while doing so, although I am sure it was more from what my reaction would be rather than some moral BS about hurting one's spouse.


What the **** r u doing on MC? Really, do 180, but do it right, and after a while if decide to R, let her ask for MC, not before she come clean with everything and with the rogth atitude . Why MC if she is clearly out of the Marriage?

DO 180 DONT WASTE MORE TIME


----------



## Chaparral

So where do you stand now? Were they expressing their love with each other? Have you checked the phone records to see how many texts were deleted so you wouldn't see them?


----------



## dogman

IIJokerII said:


> Update time!
> 
> Yesterday morning after we talked for a bit she did something that took me by surprise and showed me, finally, the text messages between them. It was simultaneously a relief and infuriating.
> 
> Although It appears that the relationship did die out it was not due to her doing the right thing and standing up for her marriage. But more so that he became busy with work and could no longer keep up with the and sustain the amount of time they were talking. Yes, I was, am, plan B.
> 
> Our MC sessions were on one occasion referenced and mocked.
> 
> She made it clear to point out that she thought it was funny to make me seem paranoid, to which he of course also thought it was funny.
> 
> She relayed to him whenever I pushed back or after me and her would fight about this situation. He'd offer his emotional support and blah blah. But the gag here is that they both took not only offense but also surprise by me having the nerve to have a problem. I have never witnessed such delusional thinking before.
> 
> We can chalk this up to false reconciliation. And before I get bombed with the I told you so's I did not say with oblivious feeling that I trusted her.
> 
> There was a lot of little other Sh1tty things, the standard stuff I am sure. I was numb after she showed me the texts and could clearly see the she had the shakes while doing so, although I am sure it was more from what my reaction would be rather than some moral BS about hurting one's spouse.


 Well....life is hard when you're too nice. Life is hard when you don't have firm boundaries. Life is hard when you marry someone who will not ALLOW you to have firm marriage boundaries.

No offense but if you don't get tough you're life will get harder and harder. Follow through on threats, just make sure you threaten the right things.


----------



## syhoybenden

Me, personally, I couldn't be plan B.


----------



## IIJokerII

Chaparral said:


> So where do you stand now? Were they expressing their love with each other? Have you checked the phone records to see how many texts were deleted so you wouldn't see them?


Honestly, I cannot see a reason going forward at all. None. I am still taking in the information. Her also seemingly expecting me to just take it in stride is also a crock of sh1t. How dare I get mad?!!!

Yes, they were at first expressing their love (Barf) is many ways, referenced sex a few times from this group of text messages. This was during the initial stages of "Quit or your out" demand. Had I known of this place earlier I would have handled it much more aptly. We have also not gone to a therapist regularly since March, the reason being is from her not trying to get the needed day off to attend, and from seeing the mocking comments I now know why.

Getting off track a little, as the time progressed the texts and calls slowed and the "I Love You's" began to wane to non existence. He became busy with work, hey, just like me, and simply reduced his attempts at contacting her. She, on the other hand, tried only slightly harder and appeared to let it go. Supposedly they had a phone call about their feelings and how stupid they were for feeling them, I use stupid as my opinion and not her words but you get the idea. 

As for her phone, it is a ATT go phone, no records to find out, are there? If so please advise since it was my Debit card that was used.


----------



## Haiku

OP - it seems you're suffering the fate of Buridan's ass. In my case it was largely due to issues centering around ego boundries and ego strength. 

Best wishes to you as you figure things out and move forward. It's a process.


----------



## Chaparral

I think all you can do is what's on the phone I.e. call history, sent messages and received messages. Was the history erased?


----------



## Chaparral

Did the messages say they met or had sex? Where did this guy live and work?


----------



## IIJokerII

Chaparral said:


> Did the messages say they met or had sex? Where did this guy live and work?


No, they did not meet. This is/was an online emotional affair and he lived on the West Coast, us on the Northeast. Of course there is the extremely small percentage of possibility that I am waiting to bite me in the a55 that they met up, if even for a couple of hours.

Even though, so far, they never met it is the fact that her desire to do so that is deflating. I am past the self blame and stuff so that is not an issue. I am glad to see that certain aspects of our life did not make it to text form, but I cannot discount phone talking. Nothing seemed to be deleted but since I was unable to perform a thorough inspection... Listen to me, I sound like such a jackass.

Any who, it was, yet again, her ability to blend fantasy with reality. For example as I had noted in this thread before when I really started to push the obvious rugsweeping I wrote it down in a notepad to address later, she in turn noticed the writing in my absence and blew up and wrote me a very angry letter exclaiming her "How dare you" feelings while berating me for thinking she was fake. Well, duh!! You were!!.

The constant lying that finally surfaced by her showing me these texts. But ya know something, this still feels a little off. Even though it appeared there were no plans or plotting her sudden admission of this and openness really doesn't make much sense. I have been pushing for months, so why now. Well.

Call it paranoia but this past Saturday I noted something odd. We went out as a family and usually, since she always takes longer than the rest of us, I get the children loaded up first and wait for her. This time however when I asked for the keys to get into the van she was obviously hesitant and mentioned we could all go out together. This, after nearly 13 years of a routine seemed very strange. But whatever, right? We go to her moms and after we all get out of the van she locks the doors, something that she has never done there. They live in one of those small town kinda communities. We get to our social even thereafter and when we get home I try to take the van out to get a few things for the following day. She make's it a point to grab a purse, not the one she was using for the day, and take it inside. I mentioned her odd behavior and presto, she throws me a bone and lets me view her cell phone. What do you all think? Paranoia or was I onto something and got thrown off the trail?


----------



## OldWolf57

J, you was given all the advice you needed, yet you are still clinging to this woman and dead marriage.

J, life is hard, and as grownup we sometime have to bite the bitter pill.
Earlier you said you could have her out of the house with 1 call.
MAKE THE CALL !!!!!!

It's pass time to detach from her. You have proven she will turn you with time, so your lil control now won't last.
How do I know this ?? She's still there.

DNA the daughter and tell her your'e doing it.

I know it useless giving you advice, but hopefully by now, youv'e had your fill.


----------



## OldWolf57

She has a burner dude, or there was evidence of her having a hookup in that purse.

Since she works nights, she has probably found her a local AP

Looks like your life is going to get even more screwed.

She left that purse in the van from the night before right ? EVIDENCE was in it from the hookup.

When are you going to stop burying your head in the sand.


----------



## Chaparral

Yeah, there is another phone. Since she is done with dude one she's gone to dude two. She locked the van so no one would accidently find the other phone.

Pretend everything is ok and go Sherlock Holmes


----------



## Lostinthought61

I agree with the guys above...the phone is a red herring....it sounds like she is throwing you off the chase....look local....investigate local..

think about it this way she was craving attach and this guy gave it too her, now she is not interested in him because he is not giving her the attention she needs...she found something or more to the point someone else...either else here but i suspect she had graduated to the next step....local.


----------



## sammy3

Xenote said:


> think about it this way she was craving attach and this guy gave it too her, now she is not interested in him because he is not giving her the attention she needs...she found something or more to the point someone else...either else here but i suspect she had graduated to the next step....local.


When I step away from it all, not looking at it from my own experience as a BS, and I read the words above, I think to myself, "What happen? What happened to this women, this marriage, these two people, where did it all go wrong? Why is she hurting so much that she could be so hurtful to people she supposedly loved? How did she go so low? How could she hurt herself so much? Why do people do this stuff to each other? Look at the lives of others, why now do they have to suffer so ??" 

It just goes to show how sad & fvck up people get themselves, there has to be a better way, a more honest way.

~sammy


----------



## IIJokerII

OldWolf57 said:


> She has a burner dude, or there was evidence of her having a hookup in that purse.
> 
> Since she works nights, she has probably found her a local AP
> 
> Looks like your life is going to get even more screwed.
> 
> She left that purse in the van from the night before right ? EVIDENCE was in it from the hookup.
> 
> When are you going to stop burying your head in the sand.


I already made the call and have a follow up appointment with a Lawyer I met back in February. The CALL that I mention is to DCF-CPS. For nearly 8 years my wife Mentally, Emotionally and in some cases Physically abused My eldest son from a previous relationship who lived with us full time due to his mother abandoning him. On 2 occasions He called DCF on her, or more accurately some one, a friend, assisted him in doing so since he was too scared. This gave way to hindsight and after hearing about what had happened past altercation's between her and him were viewed in a different light.

I'd prefer not to go into details but it was horrifying to say the least. Let this be an indication, her Blood father volunteered to take him in so he could remain in the area, and has been living there ever since. His siblings and I still see him, but very infrequently. 

No, I am not placing My wife above him. In fact I have tried to get her into counseling while also looking for a way out. I have no family here, no life long friend to turn to and when I tried to get assistance from the state it was a huge waste of time. Since I have a prick I am SOL. At the time I too was emotionally abused but unable to recognize it due to years of indoctrination and gaslighting. Once this EA began to take hold I did detach and was able to see so much more than before. What I saw was an ostrich in human form. Me. I did not like it and for all I had tolerated over the years made me feel even more pathetic.

On the day I returned home from being away for a week and appalled at what my home and children's lifestyle became I answered her challenge of having to fight to get her out of the house by telling her that after all these years the truth will have its day and I can, and will, get her out. After Our eldest son reinforced his claim to being put down to bad, along with the others, at 5:30 pm, she angrily acknowledged her futility. 

She began to reach for a razor knife for obvious reasons and I stopped her, but still, did not call the appropriate authorities. She relented and made clear that she was messed up and wrong. The next day I had full intentions of finishing the job but saw her vulnerable side. All the accusations she made against me were retracted, all her faults were brought up and she tearfully exclaimed her actions regarding what she did to her step son.

I decided at that point, in error I am sure, that what I had was someone who after years of abuse herself from both her parents, that resulted in her getting into drugs, her brother becoming an alcoholic and her youngest brother committing suicide that that I could not muster the ability to destroy another human who may have just been damaged and needed support and guidance. 

But not all toys can be fixed now can they?!!


----------



## turnera

She was hiding evidence in the car from you. So what?

You know she's not interested and willing to laugh at you. At this point, if she's not willing to move mountains, you should be moving HER to the spare bedroom until you can file for at least legal separation.

Wait a minute. You stood back while she abused your son, you protected her while CPS investigated her?! WTH, man?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Nobody hits my kids. Nobody.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

IIJokerII said:


> . She make's it a point to grab a purse, not the one she was using for the day, and take it inside.* I mentioned her odd behavior* and presto, she throws me a bone and lets me view her cell phone. What do you all think? Paranoia or was I onto something and got thrown off the trail?


Every time you mention something you give her an opportunity to cover up her mess. 

What you should have done, was grab the keys, go out there and look around. Why didn't you?


----------



## IIJokerII

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Every time you mention something you give her an opportunity to cover up her mess.
> 
> What you should have done, was grab the keys, go out there and look around. Why didn't you?



Because as weightlifter would suggest find proof first then confront later. Hard to get the keys where they are in her hand.


----------



## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> She was hiding evidence in the car from you. So what?
> 
> You know she's not interested and willing to laugh at you. At this point, if she's not willing to move mountains, you should be moving HER to the spare bedroom until you can file for at least legal separation.
> 
> Wait a minute. You stood back while she abused your son, you protected her while CPS investigated her?! WTH, man?


No I did not just stand there, but I do not have a playbook for this crap. The first time DCF was involved we were living at her moms house. Sure I could have left but where pray tell was I to go. There are no financial assistance programs for men in Connecticut and what aid I could find claimed I made too much money. So yes, like many people out there I tried to get her to admit her faults and fix it but also looked at the bigger picture.

What could that be, well if I up and leave that leaves the other three I would have had to leave behind in her care, and subjected to the same treatment and neglect. By me staying and aware I was able to protect them as much as I could. 

The difference now vs then is that I am finally in a position to break free and I am trying to accept that I must, shall, will destroy another persons life irrevocably. I am not trying to justify this, but I too, humiliation aside, was also emotionally abused. It was not until I stumbled here that I began to get the tools and knowledge to know I am not alone or crazy.


----------



## OldWolf57

J, you saw this was odd for her with the keys.
With her pass, there is no way I would not have pushed the issue, and told her how it seemed cagey that she didn't wanted you going to the van 1st. and any continued arguing just confirmed what you are thinking.

With women like this, it's just too much trouble always being on your toes.

If you truly have the means, get this woman out of your life man.


----------



## weightlifter

NOTE: You indcated 13 years.
15 years is often when mid term marriage becomes long term marriage and alimony term goes from (.33 - .50 marriage length) to (1x to lifetime alimony.)


----------



## PhillyGuy13

IIJokerII said:


> If I wasn;t in CT I would have began the process already.


Dude.

I'm on like page 7 now of your thread. Missed it first time around apparently.

I live in the northeast, grew up in New England. Connecticut, Massachusetts, New York, Mars. Just file for divorce for gods sake. It's bad for you, bad for the kids? Jesus she has abused your son and has proven to be an unfit mother over and over and over.

You got a ton of advice to leave this wretch in the dust, but took none of it. Not even mentioning how she PHYSICALLY ABUSED YOUR SON the first few times around. 

You keep saying if you didn't live in Connecticut it would be easier and you would have filed. Good god man.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

IIJokerII said:


> Because as weightlifter would suggest find proof first then confront later. Hard to get the keys where they are in her hand.


Yes, but weightlifter wouldn't say, just make a snarky comment to her instead.

You bide your time. She took the keys into the bathroom with her?


----------



## OldWolf57

Just saw your last post, and I commend you for your actions.

With you doing all for the kids and the house, you should be in a good position with DCF, but make no mistake,,, this is NOT a broken toy. 
This is a broken woman, and the minute she knows you are shedding her, she's going ballistic. Count on it man.

Hell, I'm broken, but I know it and admit it, so keeping a firm hand on me is what I do.

Good Luck J, and God Bless you and the kids


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Hang in there. The best thing for you and ultimately your kids is to get her out of your life. Cut her out like a cancer. I commend you on all your efforts to try to make it work.


----------



## IIJokerII

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Yes, but weightlifter wouldn't say, just make a snarky comment to her instead.
> 
> You bide your time. She took the keys into the bathroom with her?



They never left her side and when the day was over she made sure to grab her bag. I had to drop of my son at her fathers house and had hoped she'd forget about it. She did not. I went thru to see what I could find and it appears that whatever it was, if anything, was gone and since she had the time that I was gone to hide whatever the opportunity was missed. It was not until afterward when the moment passed did I decide to confront her odd behavior.


----------



## IIJokerII

OldWolf57 said:


> Just saw your last post, and I commend you for your actions.
> 
> With you doing all for the kids and the house, you should be in a good position with DCF, but make no mistake,,, this is NOT a broken toy.
> This is a broken woman, and the minute she knows you are shedding her, she's going ballistic. Count on it man.
> 
> Hell, I'm broken, but I know it and admit it, so keeping a firm hand on me is what I do.
> 
> Good Luck J, and God Bless you and the kids


Since this EA and the detachment thereafter I have kept detailed journals, revisited older materials and E-Mails, documented anything of merit, took pictures and kept anything of value. 

If anything our eldest son has approached me telling me to get her out of the house as he too has had enough. Enough of her taking the kids money as if to save it then spend it. Of her ignoring them, of her playing a goddamn video game for hours, and I do mean hours on end. He misses his brother as he was, in hindsight, the one who provided for him and took care of him as well as the younger 2 whilst I was at work. The yelling, destruction and just outright neglect.

As for the fear of Connecticut thing, I only speak from experience. My Eldest sons mother, another winner (I Sure do know how to pick em) was scheduled to go to a court hearing for joint legal custody with me. She never showed and in 2 minutes time I was awarded sole custody. So whats the problem? Well, Not only was I not allotted child support I was also still obligated to pay for a few months due to "Incurred" bill and lifestyle she endured to support for him, I.E; A 2 bedroom apt and certain other bills. 

With the memory still burned in place I do not look forward to my Wife full of tears to get away with whatever she wants from this. I worked too damn hard for those children just to have someone take them away from me out of some sense of public image who knows full well that she can't take care of them the way I do, the way they need to be.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Paralyzed by indecision.*



IIJokerII said:


> They never left her side and when the day was over she made sure to grab her bag. I had to drop of my son at her fathers house and had hoped she'd forget about it. She did not. I went thru to see what I could find and it appears that whatever it was, if anything, was gone and since she had the time that I was gone to hide whatever the opportunity was missed. It was not until afterward when the moment passed did I decide to confront her odd behavior.


This is not meant to insult or disparage you in any way but did you not confront her about her odd behavior immediately because you just didn't think to or because you hesitated for fear of the consequences? The title of the thread is paralyzed by indecision after all. Remember that walking on eggshells is not good training for walking away from a toxic marriage or for the marathon that is true reconciliation.


----------



## OldWolf57

I can see what your saying JJ, so just consider yourself in an open marriage an go from there.


----------



## IIJokerII

No, I will not even try to live in an open marriage situation. However this week has been telling. It appears that she showed me the texts for the apparent purpose of wanting me to turn over all the evidence that I have gathered since this all started. I stood my ground and said no citing that she had months of trust to rebuild, she refused to accept this as anything but a way for me to control her even though I have done nothing to control her.

She also during this week attacked me during an argument, tried to hurt herself last night (yes, she will be going to the doctor today one way or another), made some extremely hurtful comments regarding this EA ( " I just finished myself off before you got home after being on the phone with him!") and said she kept him around as a contact in her phone and FB as 1) a way to piss me off since she was mad at me for all my marital faults and 2) in case our marriage went to hell she'd have a "friend" to talk to.

Needless to say, this is no way to live. I cannot be punished for working hard to raise a family nor should I have taken on both of our shares in household and marriage responsibilities. I did nothing wrong and although I too made mistakes, some over a decade ago, I should not be punished for them still.


----------



## Chaparral

She shows you who she really is. What are you going to do about it?


----------



## turnera

So...you have a wife who hates herself, has contempt for you, has no problem cheating, and refuses to apologize for destroying you.

What do YOU think the solution is?


----------



## Lostinthought61

Are you still paralyzed? Her open disrespect for you should not be tolerated by anyone.....I would go up to her and just say congratulations you won....marriage over. I am almost she will cave like a house of cards in the weeks that follow when you go through D.
Right now she is defiant.


----------



## turnera

Defiant because she expects you to be 'true' to the man she thinks she knows - and cave.


----------



## GusPolinski

Joker... Years from now, when one or more of your children is exhibiting personality disorders, substance abuse problems, can't hold down jobs, manage healthy relationships, etc... _you are going to wish that you'd taken the opportunity to divorce your wife when you had the chance._


----------



## IIJokerII

Gus, first off I must say everytime I read your posts I can hear John Candy talking, Awesome.

Update. She has agreed to see the therapist for her little suicide attempt the other night. But reasoning is she wants every and all material I have gathered since this has gone down that would incriminate her of adultery, child neglect, child abuse and other negative aspects.

She has even said she would withhold sex, an act of immaturity I must say, and claims she can't get past anything without the materials. Although tough, I have not given her anything nor will I and when her arguements are defeated logically she simply gets pissed off and shuts down. 

Dare I say I am getting my mojo back. But is aint easy.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

IIJokerII said:


> Gus, first off I must say everytime I read your posts I can hear John Candy talking, Awesome.
> 
> Update. She has agreed to see the therapist for her little suicide attempt the other night. But reasoning is she wants every and all material I have gathered since this has gone down that would incriminate her of adultery, child neglect, child abuse and other negative aspects.
> 
> She has even said she would withhold sex, an act of immaturity I must say, and claims she can't get past anything without the materials. Although tough, I have not given her anything nor will I and when her arguements are defeated logically she simply gets pissed off and shuts down.
> 
> Dare I say I am getting my mojo back. But is aint easy.


If she brings up you handing over any of your evidence again, just remind her that this is one of the many reason why people shouldn't cheat on the one's that they supposedly love.

If she threatens suicide again, record it on your phone. Then tell her that you are worried that she may actually do it. That she needs professional help. Tell her that you are calling the police to have them take you to a hospital.

It's drastic, but if she's serious about killing herself and does attempt to, or worse. That call may end up saving her life.


----------



## IIJokerII

Thats what I told her, I'd rather have an angry wife or ex-wife than a dead one. My opinion is that she has been hoovering all this time and waiting for the right time to make a move. Her showing me the texts was, or appears to be a hail marry attempt to quid pro quo me into releasing the materials over to her, and since I have not is only becoming more and more volatile.


----------



## GusPolinski

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> If she brings up you handing over any of your evidence again, just remind her that this is one of the many reason why people shouldn't cheat on the one's that they supposedly love.
> 
> If she threatens suicide again, record it on your phone. Then tell her that you are worried that she may actually do it. That she needs professional help. Tell her that you are calling the police to have them take you to a hospital.
> 
> It's drastic, but if she's serious about killing herself and does attempt to, or worse. That call may end up saving her life.


Honestly, OP would probably be better served carrying a VAR in his pocket at all times, and discretely pressing the record button any time he has even the slightest interaction w/ her.


----------



## turnera

IIJokerII said:


> She has agreed to see the therapist for her little suicide attempt the other night. But reasoning is she wants every and all material I have gathered since this has gone down that would incriminate her of adultery, child neglect, child abuse and other negative aspects.


Too bad, so sad. You having the 'goods' on her is called a CONSEQUENCE.

Tell her that if she DOESN'T go to therapy, that refusal will be ADDED to the list of her wrongs that you are keeping. And tell her any further use of the suicide card will result in the ambulance pulling up and taking her away. Her choice.


----------



## OldWolf57

JJ 2 words, " Baker Act "

That will go a long way getting the kids.


----------



## IIJokerII

First off, whats a Baker Act?

Second, I was able to fight off her advancements and attempts to get the goods, she threatened to even turn herself into the police as a preemptive and then balked when I said I'd even drive her there. I feel so good right now, I was finally able to say no, and not cave in.

Thanks guys, I hope this is the turning point of the wayward war. Still, It's like she has been taken over by aliens. Who the hell did I marry?


----------



## bandit.45

IIJokerII said:


> . Who the hell did I marry?


A cheater.


----------



## badmemory

IIJokerII said:


> I have not given her anything nor will I and when her arguements are defeated logically she simply gets pissed off and shuts down.


You need to let her know that there is nothing to argue about. Shut her down if she tries - after you tell her one final time; that she will never, ever get that evidence. Not even if we R and stay married another 20 years. Next subject.


----------



## IIJokerII

Oh trust me, she will not be getting anything back at all. It was, well, liberating. I mean, I wasn't afraid of this particular conflict, but I was feeling the heat. I kept hearing the whole "Since I showed you the texts you owe it to me to release the materials" statement. And I held. Goddammnit I held!! 

After all these years I refused to even bend, and you know what, it felt pretty phuck!ng good too. Now she is offering everything over for review as if this was just a minor problem, hiccup of life. She supposedly has an appointment with the therapist this Wednesday for her personal issues. 

I think when I finally accepted that her outlandish and violent behavior was not just her being a woman as society would have most men believe, but Domestic spousal abuse I think a minor, very minor, eureka moment happened. That I would not tolerate it anymore, tolerate mistreatment of our children or marriage she began to hesitate a little. Whoever said she'd cave seems to be spot on so far. Later yesterday night her demeanor reverted back to a more enjoyable mood and was likewise this morning. 

But it's too early for cautious optimism, and it's time to keep pushing. 

I feel good......After Months of feeling like I was losing the battle (Most due to my indecisions and inactions) I can say, I feel good.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Good for you!!! I don't care what the gender is... abuse is abuse and does NOT have to be tolerated!

Call it what it is and shine the light on it.... well done!


----------



## ShootMePlz!

I hope you have a VAR in your pocket at all times to ensure she doesn't claim abuse etc. to get you out of the house!!


----------



## PS7

Bro, 

that last email about the 'were having a girl, I guess these things happen for a reason' would have pushed me over the edge. Either she's messing with you bc she knows you're checking texts…or she's way out of line texting that to another. it also implies, she's not very confident in her decisions, and she's certainly not tactful. put yourself in the other guys shoes. you're mess in' with some woman who's married. if she's pregnant, he's about to run the other way and fast.

as for the relationship…. you need to ask yourself what kind of woman she is. is she a drama queen? needs spice? is she a wanderer? my wife is a 'librarian' type. I went through this garbage 4 yrs ago and it still haunts me very day ! so if you are going to put the time and effort into saving the marriage, there is a lot of healing at the other end. 

you have to figure out how to speak HER language. 

also, bottom line bro, she's challenging your manhood. 

that's not necessarily bad. its a prime opportunity for you to find it again. 

the 180 rule is good. take care of yourself. workout. get some new clothes, activities, cologne, anything !!!!! 

I think she's about to bottom out and realize she's going to lose you and the other guy was just playing her all along. and even if she does get together with him….really… its his problem now. if she's not changing her ways for you and kids….she's not doing it for nobody.

don't even bother to ask for transparency. she won't. if she had integrity, ya'll wouldn't be here anyway.

you really need to find out what kind of woman she is, bc, it seems you still have things to learn about her.

you could start there…..'I'd like to know you better'….


----------



## livnlearn

IIJokerII said:


> The CALL that I mention is to DCF-CPS. For nearly 8 years my wife Mentally, Emotionally and in some cases Physically abused My eldest son from a previous relationship who lived with us full time due to his mother abandoning him. On 2 occasions He called DCF on her, or more accurately some one, a friend, assisted him in doing so since he was too scared. This gave way to hindsight and after hearing about what had happened past altercation's between her and him were viewed in a different light.
> 
> I'd prefer not to go into details but it was horrifying to say the least. Let this be an indication, her Blood father volunteered to take him in so he could remain in the area, and has been living there ever since. His siblings and I still see him, but very infrequently.


I have read this whole thread but honestly didn't "hear" much after reading the stuff up above. Why would you abandon the poor boy after all he has been through? :scratchhead:


----------



## IIJokerII

Although I cannot disagree with your view about abandoning him, I had to weigh certain aspects about the situation. It is complicated to be sure but since he has been at his Grandfathers house his demeanor, self esteem and overall self worth has improved immensely. He has been able to be a kid and a young adult, something he was not able to be for the longest time.

But it does upset me very much that he is away, more so when his brother's and sister mention how much they miss him.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

IIJokerII said:


> But it does upset me very much that he is away, more so when his brother's and sister mention how much they miss him.


If it upsets you "very much" then why do you and his siblings only see him "very infrequently"? 

Do you not realise how much harm you are doing to him by abandoning him in this way?

Don't you see that he has already been abandoned by his natural mother and his step mother and now you, his father, is apparently and unashamedly reinforcing what he must feel as being unworthy of being part of a family that cherishes each other?

How could you do this yet again, to a little boy who has been so hurt and damaged by those that are meant to love and believe in him?

Where is your manhood on behalf of your son?


----------



## turnera

Can't disagree.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

How old is he now?


----------



## IIJokerII

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> If it upsets you "very much" then why do you and his siblings only see him "very infrequently"?
> 
> Do you not realise how much harm you are doing to him by abandoning him in this way?
> 
> Don't you see that he has already been abandoned by his natural mother and his step mother and now you, his father, is apparently and unashamedly reinforcing what he must feel as being unworthy of being part of a family that cherishes each other?
> 
> How could you do this yet again, to a little boy who has been so hurt and damaged by those that are meant to love and believe in him?
> 
> Where is your manhood on behalf of your son?


My manhood as you challenge gave way to the request my Son made to stay where he was at. We talk frequently about this situation and he is not quite ready to be debriefed by the appropriate authorities. He is however making a journal of his past experiences and conflicts with her. He is also getting a break from all the BS that is still present. 

As for his siblings, I am quite sure that having her hauled away in cuffs would leave an everlasting mark so timing is everything. And if I can either get this Woman to change her ways or walk without fighting then I'll try to make that happen. Remember, it is not outside the realm of possibility that certain people would misunderstand by indoctrination that my eldest son was responsible for their mother being removed from the house.

I am not trying to justify or dismiss this whatsoever am I am not proud of the situation either.


----------



## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> How old is he now?


Almost 16.


----------



## turnera

If he's in another city, can you at least be sending him a letter or card every 2 or 3 days? I know it's old fashioned, but trust me, getting something in the mail from your parent or loved one will have a profound effect on the boy, even if he won't admit it.


----------



## IIJokerII

I suppose most of you would ask "Why"? Why bother sticking around or letting her stay or even allowing her the opportunity to even fix things? "Give her the boot" "Dump her a55" "What are you waiting for?" "Man up".

You all are also right that it is indeed easy. So lets do that. Where does that get us, or more accurately me. A court date for sure, divided family immediate or otherwise, a strain on finances that would cascade from everything to Mortgage to toilet paper. A roll of the dice in court, even in spite of what evidence that I have, would be contingent to what the Judge had for breakfast, his/her love life the previous night or his/her views on old fashioned ways of thought.

Buts lets assume this even goes my way. What then? Well I can't control her nor her actions, hence me even being here. So lets assume she decides or just eventually hooks up with some nice guy and all is well. Of course there is the chance she gets involved with someone who is abusive, alcoholic, a drug addict or other charming quality, hmm, what to do. Well I could try to prove it but end up failing. Then have to tolerate my children being around someone who is completely out of my control and/or influence. 

So yes, I am hoping and trying to work for the best. I don't know if I am with someone who is truly despicable or what but I do know that this forum, and most of the morally sound people of earth, would condemn me if I abandoned her after a car wreck that left her crippled or otherwise incapable of living without assistance. So why should her mental health status be treated any different? I am not saying this will work and if things do get to damn hard I'll do what must be done. But if people try to no ends to help a son or daughter out of drug addiction or financial ruin, or an alcoholic or gambling parent change their ways or any other person who you love or loved, why is my situation so different or immoral?


----------



## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> If he's in another city, can you at least be sending him a letter or card every 2 or 3 days? I know it's old fashioned, but trust me, getting something in the mail from your parent or loved one will have a profound effect on the boy, even if he won't admit it.


No, he is 8 minutes away. I call, I get him and we hang out.


----------



## badmemory

IIJokerII said:


> most of the morally sound people of earth, would condemn me if I abandoned her after a car wreck that left her crippled or otherwise incapable of living without assistance. So why should her mental health status be treated any different?


Because she broke her wedding vows.


----------



## IIJokerII

True, but show me anyone that hasn't severely phu3k3d up and I'll show you Jedi mind powers. In my youth I was reckless and apathetic to whoever I might have hurt. It was not until I hit rock bottom that I began to change my ways. I developed a lot of characteristics I never thought imaginable. People do things for a reason and time will tell if my Wife's behavior is just the passdown of abuse she sustained during her childhood. And unlike other's I have encountered I have from time to time caught a glimpse of her self awareness. I will not dismiss the possibilities regarding her well being and intentions. Maybe finally someone taking a stand is what is needed to take the first step. Had someone been there for her in her youth who would have fought the good fight then maybe things would be different for her, past, present and future.

Nut I'll always be on alert regardless of what happens.

For better or for worse.....


----------



## bfree

It's not the falling down that defines us as people. It's whether and how we get back up that demonstrates character and bares the soul. Has she gotten back up? What character traits has she demonstrated? If you were an objective observer what would be your conclusion as to the depth and color of her soul?


----------



## badmemory

Joker,

If you want to play the KISA to her victimized past, I wish you luck with that.

I tend to look at mental illness as a reason for infidelity skeptically, but also logically. Assuming that indeed was the major reason for it, then you also have to assume that she needs to be "fixed" before you can have reasonable assurance that this won't happen again. Frankly, I'd have little confidence in you or mental health counselors to make that happen. In fact, it would give me more pause to consider R, than if there were no mental issues.

Never the less, it's your decision and I hope things work out for the best.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

IIJokerII said:


> True, but show me anyone that hasn't severely phu3k3d up and I'll show you Jedi mind powers. In my youth I was reckless and apathetic to whoever I might have hurt. It was not until I hit rock bottom that I began to change my ways. I developed a lot of characteristics I never thought imaginable. People do things for a reason and time will tell if my Wife's behavior is just the passdown of abuse she sustained during her childhood. And unlike other's I have encountered I have from time to time caught a glimpse of her self awareness. I will not dismiss the possibilities regarding her well being and intentions. Maybe finally someone taking a stand is what is needed to take the first step. Had someone been there for her in her youth who would have fought the good fight then maybe things would be different for her, past, present and future.
> 
> Nut I'll always be on alert regardless of what happens.
> 
> For better or for worse.....


Your boundaries are weak, ineffectual and skewed.


----------



## OldWolf57

Baker Act is when you have someone committed for 72 hrs. to keep them from harming themselves and others.
And you had her.
1. talking of taking her own life.
2. she had a blade
3. she trashed the house.
4 she attacked you.

She is helping you keep the kids by her actions.


----------



## IIJokerII

OldWolf57 said:


> Baker Act is when you have someone committed for 72 hrs. to keep them from harming themselves and others.
> And you had her.
> 1. talking of taking her own life.
> 2. she had a blade
> 3. she trashed the house.
> 4 she attacked you.
> 
> She is helping you keep the kids by her actions.


I feel the same way Wolf. Today she goes to her coerced therapy session due to her behavior recently and the threat of me calling the paramedics. Of course she has decided to throw in a monkey wrench to this as well.

I still have not given her any of the documented materials and she seems to have accepted this, but she now has indicated that she wanted my notebook journals regarding this that contain what I would perceive as sensitive information claiming that this information will help her at therapy even though a majority of the problems I explained to her that I had and concerns, past and present, were prevalent prior to us even getting married or her EA. 

The more I say no though the more irritated she gets.


----------



## turnera

You HAVE moved all your 'evidence' to your place of work or a friend's house, right? She is becoming obsessed, and will soon trash your house looking for it.

Are you going to the session with her? You need to.


----------



## GusPolinski

turnera said:


> You HAVE moved all your 'evidence' to your place of work or a friend's house, right? She is becoming obsessed, and will soon trash your house looking for it.
> 
> Are you going to the session with her? You need to.


Any handwritten evidence needs to be transcribed into a digital format and stored (not necessarily synced, though) in at least two different offsite "Cloud" locations like Carbonite, Dropbox, Google Drive, SugarSync, etc.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

IIJokerII said:


> I feel the same way Wolf. Today she goes to her coerced therapy session due to her behavior recently and the threat of me calling the paramedics. Of course she has decided to throw in a monkey wrench to this as well.
> 
> I still have not given her any of the documented materials and she seems to have accepted this, but she now has indicated that she wanted my notebook journals regarding this that contain what I would perceive as sensitive information claiming that this information will help her at therapy even though a majority of the problems I explained to her that I had and concerns, past and present, were prevalent prior to us even getting married or her EA.
> 
> The more I say no though the more irritated she gets.


In this irritation... what is her behavior like leading up to an explosion.. 

This was where I nipped it in the bud in my house... I started to learn what happened before what happens happens... in other words.. his brooding silence is what lead into conflict and ultimately physical violence, so I started nipping the brooding in the bud. I have a changed man today.

I truly feel as a child he was allowed to use his emotions to get what he wants and then grew into an adult at 6'3" and 275 lbs, that can be quite dangerous. Once an adult, childish behavior can become deadly. You HAVE to zero in like a laser beam on the things that lead up to the explosions. THAT is the only way.


----------



## IIJokerII

GusPolinski said:


> Any handwritten evidence needs to be transcribed into a digital format and stored (not necessarily synced, though) in at least two different offsite "Cloud" locations like Carbonite, Dropbox, Google Drive, SugarSync, etc.


All material are either here with me at work, a place she can never get into or at an undisclosed location. Time will tell is this is an adjustment to having a lack of control or need to purge any and all proof for obvious reasons. I did cite the "Betrayed spouses bill of rights" for this maneuver.

Certain sensitive material of merit where she mentioned feeling suicidal are highly guarded as so she cannot claim that the marriage or my "Behavior" is what made her feel this way. A personal document of hers from her teens is also on lockdown that reinforces her thoughts about self harm well before we even met.


----------



## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> In this irritation... what is her behavior like leading up to an explosion..
> 
> This was where I nipped it in the bud in my house... I started to learn what happened before what happens happens... in other words.. his brooding silence is what lead into conflict and ultimately physical violence, so I started nipping the brooding in the bud. I have a changed man today.
> 
> I truly feel as a child he was allowed to use his emotions to get what he wants and then grew into an adult at 6'3" and 275 lbs, that can be quite dangerous. Once an adult, childish behavior can become deadly. You HAVE to zero in like a laser beam on the things that lead up to the explosions. THAT is the only way.


The lead up behavior or attitude is always a variety. A passive aggressive comment, mild suggestion or direct "Order" from here leads to the same thing, no matter the subject. Resistance via a logical discussion is not accepted and I often get sucked into a full blown argument due to my frustration. 

If I had the time I'd get a giant white board and plot the start to finish path and subsequent actions thereafter using irrefutable truth, proof and probable/logical thinking and it would still be rejected.


----------



## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> You HAVE moved all your 'evidence' to your place of work or a friend's house, right? She is becoming obsessed, and will soon trash your house looking for it.
> 
> Are you going to the session with her? You need to.


Conflicting schedules and child care will hinder the NEED to do this. But today her initial appointment is within a time frame and location that I can leave work just a tad early and see on the way home if indeed she went. Later, I'll ask how it went to see.......

I'd delete my previous paragraph but feel it appropriate to leave it. Just got a call, Daughter needs to go to Pediatrician for a legit finger irritation. Change in plan needed. Just when I got it planned out.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

IIJokerII said:


> The lead up behavior or attitude is always a variety. A passive aggressive comment, mild suggestion or direct "Order" from here leads to the same thing, no matter the subject. Resistance via a logical discussion is not accepted and I often get sucked into a full blown argument due to my frustration.
> 
> If I had the time I'd get a giant white board and plot the start to finish path and subsequent actions thereafter using irrefutable truth, proof and probable/logical thinking and it would still be rejected.


What in her behavior elevates frustration for you


----------



## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> What in her behavior elevates frustration for you


Lack of self awareness, illogical reasoning, irrational conclusive thought.

E.G; Just recently she finally removed her EA partner from her FB page. But the months prior to that were met with objection and the claim "But I'm not even talking to him"! NC across the board just didn't sink in and I got pissed about this A-Hole being able to see pictures of my Wife and children at his leisure if he wanted to. Her reason for the delay? 1) To piss me off since she was mad at our situation and her residual unhappiness from my "Failure's" at meeting her needs. 2) If our marriage went kaput and bombed out she'd have someone to talk to since he was "a good listener and friend, blah, blah". 

So this instance became self defeating. A catalyst for our current issues was still present and became a anchor for my frustration, thus causing arguments, so in turn her prophetic intention would've been met.

Metaphor; I am an abusive alcoholic, and after denying the consumption of alcohol for months while supposedly on the wagon and lying about it I finally am able to honestly done drinking. But I refuse to discard the remainder of what is in the house and keep it to deliberately piss off my Wife or whoever may be angered by keeping it and mention that I will turn to it if and/or when I feel stressed enough to need to consume it. I am oblivious that I am the one causing the stress.

Know what I mean.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

IIJokerII said:


> Lack of self awareness, illogical reasoning, irrational conclusive thought.
> 
> E.G; Just recently she finally removed her EA partner from her FB page. But the months prior to that were met with objection and the claim "But I'm not even talking to him"! NC across the board just didn't sink in and I got pissed about this A-Hole being able to see pictures of my Wife and children at his leisure if he wanted to. Her reason for the delay? 1) To piss me off since she was mad at our situation and her residual unhappiness from my "Failure's" at meeting her needs. 2) If our marriage went kaput and bombed out she'd have someone to talk to since he was "a good listener and friend, blah, blah".
> 
> So this instance became self defeating. A catalyst for our current issues was still present and became a anchor for my frustration, thus causing arguments, so in turn her prophetic intention would've been met.
> 
> Metaphor; I am an abusive alcoholic, and after denying the consumption of alcohol for months while supposedly on the wagon and lying about it I finally am able to honestly done drinking. But I refuse to discard the remainder of what is in the house and keep it to deliberately piss off my Wife or whoever may be angered by keeping it and mention that I will turn to it if and/or when I feel stressed enough to need to consume it. I am oblivious that I am the one causing the stress.
> 
> Know what I mean.


Yep.... all of her behavior is a passive aggressive anger towards you, which is destructive. 

1. She needs to choose constructive ways of relationship management with loving clear communication and healthy boundaries instead of sulling up and going underground with her emotions which lead to her affair choices which are highly destructive to many people when discovered.

2. She must realize all of her needs cannot be met by you and that it is an unreasonable expectation. That emotional weight belongs on her shoulders.


----------



## rubymoon

OP, I didn't read all 14 pages but I read quite a bit. May I ask you (and I am asking sincerely, with no sarcasm intended): why are you still with this woman?

Do you love her that much? 

I can fully understand if that is the case, but you never mentioned (or I missed) the reason why you are staying with her. Is there one?.. I also advocated forgiveness in another thread, but she is not asking you for one, either... I am actually interested to find out about your motivation to stay with her, rather than in her motivation to be what she is. 

PS. Feel free to ignore, if I am intruding.


----------



## IIJokerII

rubymoon said:


> OP, I didn't read all 14 pages but I read quite a bit. May I ask you (and I am asking sincerely, with no sarcasm intended): why are you still with this woman?
> 
> Do you love her that much?
> 
> I can fully understand if that is the case, but you never mentioned (or I missed) the reason why you are staying with her. Is there one?.. I also advocated forgiveness in another thread, but she is not asking you for one, either... I am actually interested to find out about your motivation to stay with her, rather than in her motivation to be what she is.
> 
> PS. Feel free to ignore, if I am intruding.


I do not mind at all, I appreciate honest questions. 

I suppose I the end it is a matter of needs vs wants. I don't need her as I have basically shouldered this year's responsibility's in near its entirety. I'm not afraid of meeting someone new myself or getting the physical need for intimacy met. I am not keen on seeing her move on but it does happen in these cases. I feel it is and was the effort and experiences that we shared when things were at the best and the great sense of joy I felt during these moments. 

I often say to myself WTF am I doing and proceed with the face palm. And for all things big or small she has equaled them in a positive manner. 

At one time this woman fought tooth and nail to aid me in getting full custody of my eldest son, fought for his mother to get into his life, extended her affection towards him...But then this is equaled by some very bad actions, horrible ones. She must have at one time cared, so what changed? Why so angry?

She has several times in the past stressed values regarding family structure and her lack thereof during her childhood, only to introduce stressfulness and anger? So what changed?

She hated, and I mean hated the fact that her father was unfaithful to her mother and blames it mostly for the hell she went thru during her upbringing. Could her anger be now some sort of self reflection of guilt or shame that she became the one thing she despised the most? What changed?

Before children, Marriage, Work, Home owning, and all that other BS that gets in the way of life, like many others here we were on cloud 9. And the one thing I will always remember about our early days was that we simply enjoyed each others company and had what I thought was the rare combination of being in love, in relation ship and best friends and family. 

Over the years I knew this would wane but could recognize what was obscuring my view of the dynamic. But every so often this began to be again; Lover's, husband and Wife and Friends. However fleeting it was I craved these moments and knew, had faith that eventually after a stretch of hard work raising children and life events that we would, could once again be free to enjoy life on our own terms. I thought I had the perfect partner once, and still think the potential is there, just buried under resentment, stagnation and some A55 monkey that filled a void and proceeded to accept her invitation to her heart. So what changed.

Maybe I am just phucI<!ng stupid huh?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Whoa ... pump the brakes on the self condemnation


----------



## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> Whoa ... pump the brakes on the self condemnation


Brakes are applied, but sometimes you got to admit that oneself is wrong!


----------



## rubymoon

IIJokerII said:


> Maybe I am just phucI<!ng stupid huh?


No! Not at all. I do believe that decisions to leave are made as a result of a long process full of doubts, soul searching, fear of unknown, and disappointments with what you have... and so much more... It's not an overnight "I am done." It's a process to get there, when you actually feel in your core that you are done. If you are not there (and you may never have to get there - let's hope), then you are not there. If you ever get there, you will know. 

Maybe you need to separate temporarily. Just to get all the anger and resentment on both sides to subside. I don't mean to move out and change your mailing address. Just stay apart for a month. Avoid communications beyond what's neccessary for the kids. Clear your mind. 

I think you are in some vicious circle (as in both of you). You need to break it somehow. 

And who knows... After a month apart, you may realize that your life is much better invested in something else other than her issues. Or on the contrary, maybe her issues won't seem as big and bad. She will have her own take on it and may arrive to some resolutions as well. 

Best of luck and a lot of strength to you. A man who supports his family deserves a loving wife, home cooked meal every day, and full devotion of those who depend on him.


----------



## turnera

I think separation would help you in several ways. Help you learn you don't need her. Help her see that she can't take you for granted. Help you both get to a place - and have a reason to get to a place - where you can have a REAL conversation about what you BOTH deserve.


----------



## IIJokerII

rubymoon said:


> Best of luck and a lot of strength to you. A man who supports his family deserves a loving wife, home cooked meal every day, and full devotion of those who depend on him.


Perhaps we should file this under the Fictional section of CWI.


----------



## rubymoon

OP, I would ask her "what are you fighting for?" What does she want to accomplish by being so difficult? She has to put it in simple, clear terms that you can address if you decide to do so. 

Every time I open my mouth to tell my husband he is doing something wrong, I clearly formulate in my head what he needs to change in his behavior, or what it is I want out of this, or what I want him to do. Not just "you have to be nice to me", but "I want help around the house" or "I want to be taken out on dates once a month"...... Whatever it is but it has to be like a statement of work with a clear goal and timeframe. 

So, ask her to tell you what she is fighting for! 

It may be helpful to put it in an email, so that she has a chance to put it all out there without getting distracted in a conversation. 

Then you read it and decide if she is worth what she is asking for. 

She feels your indecisiveness, which is a weakness, and exploits it. Help yourself to make a decision by getting her thoughts out in a written form and separating from her to think it over.


----------



## IIJokerII

rubymoon said:


> OP, I would ask her "what are you fighting for?" What does she want to accomplish by being so difficult? She has to put it in simple, clear terms that you can address if you decide to do so.
> 
> Every time I open my mouth to tell my husband he is doing something wrong, I clearly formulate in my head what he needs to change in his behavior, or what it is I want out of this, or what I want him to do. Not just "you have to be nice to me", but "I want help around the house" or "I want to be taken out on dates once a month"...... Whatever it is but it has to be like a statement of work with a clear goal and timeframe.
> 
> So, ask her to tell you what she is fighting for!
> 
> It may be helpful to put it in an email, so that she has a chance to put it all out there without getting distracted in a conversation.
> 
> Then you read it and decide if she is worth what she is asking for.
> 
> She feels your indecisiveness, which is a weakness, and exploits it. Help yourself to make a decision by getting her thoughts out in a written form and separating from her to think it over.


She has made it clear what she wants in terms of our relationship.More dates and excitement. I have no problem meeting these needs and agree whole heartedly. 

However planning adult time outside the house for just the 2 of us is difficult with four children and only one trustworthy party to rely on for child care which is equally difficult due to this party not wanting or seeming to want to take our children for an extended period of time. Overnight stays or long weekends are slim picking, if any.

The other is the cost, a burden that befalls me to yield. I never complained abouther spending until this debacle but reviewing the last 2 yrs worth has shown a 1 for 1 ratio. 4k in, 4k out, 15 k in, 15 k out. And it isn't being stashed, it is just gone. So she doesn't consider dinner and a movie too exciting, fun but not exciting, nor do I. 

Then there is the issue of having to perform nearly all the coupled chores and activities that involve us all. Laundary, dishes, general pickup, trash, outside work, making of meals when home, all three for the day, entertaining the children and so much more I am exhausted after dropping the kids off as it is or simply do not have the resolve or excitement anymore to challenge this. I did at one point but just got wore down with stress.

As for trying to make changes to support her emotional needs I simply was self conscious about trying and what she would think. After a discussion about this I picked one of the most obscure but romantic winery's in the area.

The result? 

She made comments about what I didn't get done in lieu of concentrating on her and our date and found out soon after that she posted about our date on FB as if it was just her that went out, no mention of me. That hurt. And while also on our date she kept checking her damn phone, the main avenue of her cheating. I had no clue if her EA was over and felt disheveled.

Make sense?


----------



## rubymoon

IIJokerII said:


> Make sense?


No, it doesn't actually. If she needs changes in her life, which I can fully understand, then she should participate in making them happen. I don't know how, but just demanding things that cannot be done, is not a solution for anything. It's not productive and frankly just stupid. 

She wants a date - fine, you can take her out, but she should come up with babysitters. She doesn't work, right? She could babysit her friend's kids to ask them for a favor in return. Just as an example. 

I take it she doesn't work - you are the provider. She should appreciate that. What house chores for the one who works?! 

Separate... Let her taste the difference. 

Be strong! And remember that if you divorce, you will have plenty of opportunities to remarry, she probably never will. World is not fair, and it gets only worse with age and the number of kids.


----------



## turnera

IIJokerII said:


> However planning adult time outside the house for just the 2 of us is difficult with four children and only one trustworthy party to rely on for child care
> 
> Make sense?


NOT AT ALL.

What, haven't you ever heard of care.com? Your local YMCA's listing for babysitters? Your neighborhood list of babysitters? Your kids' school's list? Any of a HUNDRED websites in your area that advertise babysitters?

Good grief.


----------



## turnera

IIJokerII said:


> I picked one of the most obscure but romantic winery's in the area.
> 
> The result?
> 
> She made comments about what I didn't get done in lieu of concentrating on her and our date and found out soon after that she posted about our date on FB as if it was just her that went out, no mention of me. That hurt.


And THAT was a sh*t test, and you failed. What you NEEDED to do was when she criticized you, you looked her in the eyes, got up from the table, and said "ok. good to know. see yourself home." And when she posted on FB, you should have got off the phone/computer, walked up to her, looked her in the eyes, and said "I don't appreciate you making light of the efforts I make to give you a good time and you act as if I don't exist. If you are going to continue like this, guess who isn't going to make an effort again?"


----------



## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> And THAT was a sh*t test, and you failed. What you NEEDED to do was when she criticized you, you looked her in the eyes, got up from the table, and said "ok. good to know. see yourself home." And when she posted on FB, you should have got off the phone/computer, walked up to her, looked her in the eyes, and said "I don't appreciate you making light of the efforts I make to give you a good time and you act as if I don't exist. If you are going to continue like this, guess who isn't going to make an effort again?"


This statement is what I wish I said to her exactly. 2 details though if I may.

I wasn't supposed to know about her FB post's as I am blocked from seeing most information from the medium, it was left open one day and I took a peak. 

I'd like to employ statements like this but usually do not have a reply till later on when the moment is passed. Also, although I did say something similar about this issue to her it was met with irritation and anger, as if I was being the one who was nit picking.


----------



## IIJokerII

rubymoon said:


> No, it doesn't actually. If she needs changes in her life, which I can fully understand, then she should participate in making them happen. I don't know how, but just demanding things that cannot be done, is not a solution for anything. It's not productive and frankly just stupid.
> 
> She wants a date - fine, you can take her out, but she should come up with babysitters. She doesn't work, right? She could babysit her friend's kids to ask them for a favor in return. Just as an example.
> 
> I take it she doesn't work - you are the provider. She should appreciate that. What house chores for the one who works?!
> 
> Separate... Let her taste the difference.
> 
> Be strong! And remember that if you divorce, you will have plenty of opportunities to remarry, she probably never will. World is not fair, and it gets only worse with age and the number of kids.


For the child sitter part, she exclaims it should be me that arranges it as she wants to see me be the one who takes the initiative on this activity.

She works nearly full time but has contributed nothing, and I mean nothing, towards our household. The excuse is that she has a Capital one 360 account, like a checking and savings account, that she was putting money in for savings for the last few years. Supposedly this account is frozen due to a credit card bill needing to be paid off. I do not believe this and when I confront for evidence of this freeze yet again I am met with anger and irritation, and this is after I push past the excuses. 

What household chores? Lets bypass making a list and just say all. The only time she participates is on the 3 or 4 occasions company arrives. Everything else was, and still is left to me. This is not an exaggeration. This has been one of the hurdles she fails to recognize as I can't allow for the children to live in squalor or unsanitary conditions and HAVE to get sh!t done. And no, I am not an OCD type clean guy either. 

As for getting remarried, it will never happen. And this is not a hyperbole, it just will never happen again. Dating and other stuff yes, but never to remarry.


----------



## Chaparral

IIJokerII said:


> For the child sitter part, she exclaims it should be me that arranges it as she wants to see me be the one who takes the initiative on this activity.
> 
> She works nearly full time but has contributed nothing, and I mean nothing, towards our household. The excuse is that she has a Capital one 360 account, like a checking and savings account, that she was putting money in for savings for the last few years. Supposedly this account is frozen due to a credit card bill needing to be paid off. I do not believe this and when I confront for evidence of this freeze yet again I am met with anger and irritation, and this is after I push past the excuses.
> 
> What household chores? Lets bypass making a list and just say all. The only time she participates is on the 3 or 4 occasions company arrives. Everything else was, and still is left to me. This is not an exaggeration. This has been one of the hurdles she fails to recognize as I can't allow for the children to live in squalor or unsanitary conditions and HAVE to get sh!t done. And no, I am not an OCD type clean guy either.
> 
> As for getting remarried, it will never happen. And this is not a hyperbole, it just will never happen again. Dating and other stuff yes, but never to remarry.


She's turned you into her b!tch and you have let her. Have you read MMSLP yet? Its linked to below. Download it from amazon. You have lost the ability to be her man. You are the maid, butler, groundskeeper, babysitter all roled into one. No woman wants to date and sex up the butler.

She's saving her money for her escape.

For God's sake get the book now. You've niced your way into servitude.


----------



## IIJokerII

Chaparral said:


> You've niced your way into servitude.


Tell me about it.


----------



## azteca1986

IIJokerII said:


> I wasn't supposed to know about her FB post's as I am blocked from seeing most information from the medium, it was left open one day and I took a peak.


Wait. She has you blocked (to some degree) from FB? 

Why are you okay with this?


----------



## IIJokerII

azteca1986 said:


> Wait. She has you blocked (to some degree) from FB?
> 
> Why are you okay with this?


I wasn't, we fought several times about it. 

Before the tsunami of lack on manhood comments arrive I had for the most part learned to avoid her anger over the years and after years of kowtowing and gas lighting it has taken a while to reverse the process of thinking.


----------



## azteca1986

IIJokerII said:


> I wasn't, we fought several times about it.
> 
> Before the tsunami of lack on manhood comments arrive I had for the most part learned to avoid her anger over the years and after years of kowtowing and gas lighting it has taken a while to reverse the process of thinking.


I'm not here to beat you down, mate. This is just a symptom of the general malaise of your marriage. The idea that my wife would keep things private from me, yet broadcast to people outside of our marriage would be unacceptable. 

Any marriage needs honesty and good communication otherwise it's simply unsustainable.


----------



## Chaparral

Mmslp will teach how to handle her anger. She probably has an anger/adrenalin addiction.


----------



## IIJokerII

azteca1986 said:


> I'm not here to beat you down, mate. This is just a symptom of the general malaise of your marriage. The idea that my wife would keep things private from me, yet broadcast to people outside of our marriage would be unacceptable.
> 
> Any marriage needs honesty and good communication otherwise it's simply unsustainable.


I agree, it was not like this before her EA. Hammering it home just got me nowhere. Currently she has finally started to open up a little bit but it seems this is only for the sole purpose of her getting back the sensitive materials and documentation I have collected sine this started and for other matters she is afraid to deal with.

Even though I have not used them or blackmailed her into anything she will not accept this and has bet the farm " I can't work to get past this until I know these things are destroyed". 

This statement could be honest but logic suggests otherwise. I have said, go transparent, come totally clean, seek therapy and provide effort for your family's needs. These requests are either dismissed or mailed in and she is actually getting mad that I just do not roll over when we talk about this and my refusal to give her what she wants.

So after 8 months of near solid lying, secrecy and other problems and in spite of me trying during that time to open up I am now the bad guy cause I want to see and feel her effort in rebuilding trust.

Her logic is bunk.


----------



## IIJokerII

Chaparral said:


> Mmslp will teach how to handle her anger. She probably has an anger/adrenalin addiction.


Really? I read Uptowns posts and information about BPD (Borderline) and that seems to fit the bill to a tee.

Addicted to anger though, I never thought of that.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Paralyzed by indecision.*



Chaparral said:


> Mmslp will teach how to handle her anger. She probably has an anger/adrenalin addiction.


Handle her anger? He should embrace her anger and use it against her. MMSLP will teach him that as well. Easiest way to cool her jets is to not just pass her shyt tests but to use them to his advantage and put her in her place.


----------



## IIJokerII

bfree said:


> Handle her anger? He should embrace her anger and use it against her. MMSLP will teach him that as well. Easiest way to cool her jets is to not just pass her shyt tests but to use them to his advantage and put her in her place.


I have got to get this MMSLP book, can anyone cliff note it for a quick summary?


----------



## bfree

She's not using logic. She's reacting on pure emotion. That's not bpd, that's just disrespect for you.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Paralyzed by indecision.*



IIJokerII said:


> I have got to get this MMSLP book, can anyone cliff note it for a quick summary?


Cliff notes...women like and need strong men. You let her walk all over you so right now in her eyes you are a woman and a weak one at that.


----------



## azteca1986

IIJokerII said:


> I have said, go transparent, come totally clean, seek therapy and provide effort for your family's needs. These requests are either dismissed or mailed in and she is actually getting mad that I just do not roll over when we talk about this and my refusal to give her what she wants.
> 
> So after 8 months of near solid lying, secrecy and other problems and in spite of me trying during that time to open up I am now the bad guy cause I want to see and feel her effort in rebuilding trust.
> 
> Her logic is bunk.


Her anger is one way to try and bring you into line. Her manipulation and refusal to take responsibility for her actions are two others. She'll try some other tactics as she wants the old docile you back again.

You're making 'requests' when you should be making demands. Your marriage in it's current form has to end, one way or the other. I think you're beginning to accept that, as your tone has changed for the better throughout your thread. You will get to the point where you will demand the kind of marriage that you want. She will either get on board or be left behind.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Paralyzed by indecision.*



azteca1986 said:


> Her anger is one way to try and bring you into line. Her manipulation and refusal to take responsibility for her actions are two others. She'll try some other tactics as she wants the old docile you back again.
> 
> You're making 'requests' when you should be making demands. Your marriage in it's current form has to end, one way or the other. I think you're beginning to accept that, as your tone has changed for the better throughout your thread. You will get to the point where you will demand the kind of marriage that you want. She will either get on board or be left behind.


Joker, read this last line. Now read it again. That's your default position if you want to fix things. Otherwise you're the one getting left behind.


----------



## turnera

IIJokerII said:


> I did say something similar about this issue to her it was met with irritation and anger, as if I was being the one who was nit picking.


So?


----------



## turnera

IIJokerII said:


> I wasn't, we fought several times about it.
> 
> Before the tsunami of lack on manhood comments arrive I had for the most part learned to avoid her anger over the years and after years of kowtowing and gas lighting it has taken a while to reverse the process of thinking.


So change it. Do whatever it takes so you can now see her FB. What husband allows that?


----------



## turnera

IIJokerII said:


> Even though I have not used them or blackmailed her into anything she will not accept this and has bet the farm " I can't work to get past this until I know these things are destroyed".


Wait a minute. 

SHE cheated.

And now SHE says that unless you give HER the proof you have on her, SHE can't settle for YOU?

WTH, man? I have no words.

Tell her to get the hell out of your house.


----------



## turnera

IIJokerII said:


> I have got to get this MMSLP book, can anyone cliff note it for a quick summary?


Be a man and stop letting her use anger to control you.


----------



## turnera

azteca1986 said:


> You're making 'requests' when you should be making demands.


Yep. Remember which of you was the cheater.


----------



## rubymoon

IIJokerII said:


> For the child sitter part, she exclaims it should be me that arranges it as she wants to see me be the one who takes the initiative on this activity.


I don't buy that... If I want something and I can help it, I will do whatever it takes to get what I want. She doesn't want to go out with YOU on a date. I mean she does want to have a kids and worry free night with a nice meal, but not you. 



IIJokerII said:


> The excuse is that she has a Capital one 360 account, like a checking and savings account, that she was putting money in for savings for the last few years. Supposedly this account is frozen due to a credit card bill needing to be paid off. .


She is well prepared financially for divorce! 



IIJokerII said:


> What household chores? Lets bypass making a list and just say all. The only time she participates is on the 3 or 4 occasions company arrives. Everything else was, and still is left to me. This is not an exaggeration. This has been one of the hurdles she fails to recognize as I can't allow for the children to live in squalor or unsanitary conditions and HAVE to get sh!t done. And no, I am not an OCD type clean guy either.


Then I have to ask you the same question. Or rather, you should ask yourself the same question: what are YOU fighting for?

When you try answering, please scratch all references to good memories and how great she was in the past - those are sunk benefits so to speak. She was that way because she wanted YOU and she was trying to show you that she was worth YOU. It's not that she wasn't sincere, but she had an agenda that included you. What you have now is the same woman without agenda that includes you. So... what are you fighting for as it stands today? 

I can tell you one thing, just that financial infidelity with her own accounts would have been enough for my H to divorce me. And he doesn't need or even want my money. But if I start playing games with his mind (be it financial, emotional or any other infidelity), I'd be go-o-o-ne!


----------



## warlock07

She works nearly full time but has contributed nothing, and I mean nothing, towards our household. The excuse is that she has a Capital one 360 account, like a checking and savings account, that she was putting money in for savings for the last few years. Supposedly this account is frozen due to a credit card bill needing to be paid off. I do not believe this and when I confront for evidence of this freeze yet again I am met with anger and irritation, and this is after I push past the excuses. 

WTF ?? Get this resolved immediately. Hook or by crook. Look at her statements for the last few years. This is some vile sh*t !!! How the hell did you think this is normal!! I cannot believe some of the stuff she made you do through the years. You somehow made excuses I cannot understand

You think this can be fixed by therapy ?


----------



## IIJokerII

She is still trying to exert her will. After her therapy she came home to talk about it and the tone was definitely tense. She lamented that she did not appreciate me telling her what to feel or how she should feel. This statement is true but it lacks context, I have said that feeling entitled for her affair, justified for her abusive tendencies, self righteous for her violent outburst, ignored due to her lack of effort and various other destructive and negative habits and actions is indeed wrong.

She is pushing though, but while I have the factual-caught in the act-non-exaggerated-this is what you did evidence she is still trying to cake eat for the most part.

What was it that Chump Lady said, when they cake eat take away the fork! I like that!


----------



## rubymoon

turnera said:


> Be a man and stop letting her use anger to control you.


Easier said than done...


----------



## turnera

Why? If she tells you to do something you don't want to do, say no.


----------



## rubymoon

bfree said:


> She's not using logic. She's reacting on pure emotion. That's not bpd, that's just disrespect for you.


Not true!!!

She has clear and very well organized logic, and she is firmly following it. Her goal is different from OP's, but her actions are very logical: kill his will power, make him feel worthless so that he doesn't go anywhere, walk over him to cement that, build her own financial unit separate and independent from his, and basically get everything she can from him as long as it's free of ANY charge (monetary, emotional, etc). Very-very logical and clear to me. 

My husband's ex was exactly like that in terms of killing the man's selfesteem, crushing his self worth and killing his self respect to be able to gain financially from it (she didn't cheat or anything like that). At the time of their divorce my H was BrOke! More over, I used to know him before they met, and he was this alpha male - proud, very confident, strong! When he contacted me at the time of his divorce (it was already filed and she already move to another man), he was this little, insecure, petty boy. She broke his self esteem and she was sure that he won't go anywhere from her no matter what she does. It's a form of control to make one believe that you are the only woman on Earth for him because he is so worthless that no one else would look twice at him. My H has rebuilt his self esteem and he is back to being a confident alpha male. But this time around he remembers who helped him grow those wings and how easy it is to lose them.


----------



## rubymoon

turnera said:


> Why? If she tells you to do something you don't want to do, say no.


I have a friend whose wife "controls him with anger". It's horrible. He says "no", and she starts yelling and/or crying. He is exhausted after work and is not able to defend his position. Plus, their kids witness all of that, and he feels guilty that he started it. And more, and more, and more negative feelings... So, eventually he learned that it's easier to do whatever she wants than to say No. Unfortunately, he also learned that it's best for him to be elsewhere than home. He doesn't cheat, but he volunteers at the church all the time, helps his friends with whatever it may be as long as it takes him out of the house, goes out with friends, stays late at work, takes kids out "giving her time to rest" or stays home with kids when she wants to go out... Whatever it takes to be separate from her. I am NOT advocating or advising it to him, but I am just sitting on a side and counting down to D.


----------



## lordmayhem

bfree said:


> She's not using logic. She's reacting on pure emotion. That's not bpd, that's just disrespect for you.


:iagree:

This thread is just too painful to read any further. Good luck to the OP.


----------



## IIJokerII

rubymoon said:


> Not true!!!
> 
> She has clear and very well organized logic, and she is firmly following it. Her goal is different from OP's, but her actions are very logical: kill his will power, make him feel worthless so that he doesn't go anywhere, walk over him to cement that, build her own financial unit separate and independent from his, and basically get everything she can from him as long as it's free of ANY charge (monetary, emotional, etc). Very-very logical and clear to me.
> 
> My husband's ex was exactly like that in terms of killing the man's selfesteem, crushing his self worth and killing his self respect to be able to gain financially from it (she didn't cheat or anything like that). At the time of their divorce my H was BrOke! More over, I used to know him before they met, and he was this alpha male - proud, very confident, strong! When he contacted me at the time of his divorce (it was already filed and she already move to another man), he was this little, insecure, petty boy. She broke his self esteem and she was sure that he won't go anywhere from her no matter what she does. It's a form of control to make one believe that you are the only woman on Earth for him because he is so worthless that no one else would look twice at him. My H has rebuilt his self esteem and he is back to being a confident alpha male. But this time around he remembers who helped him grow those wings and how easy it is to lose them.


The Alpha personality you so describe was exactly how I was before this crap. In my line of work it is Dog eat Dog and I lived the moniker of being a Pit Bull to get what I want. I refused to take no as an answer, found some way to get my way and would never lose an argument. If I was wrong, I'd admit it immediately just to take the wind out of your sails and prevent anyone from stroking there Ego at my expense. And when I was correct I made sure to have proof and details to solidify my claims.

But I do not sleep with these people, love or bond on an intimate level. So when the one person you turn to for anything and everything smashes you ego to oblivion you tend to begin to think it is true..."You're not good enough, that's all there is to it". Being blindsided also doesn't help neither.

In the end her mistake was to allow for me to detach from her, since the residual feeling's of love and understanding have waned substantially. The echo of what once was is giving way to the new voice, and it is starting to say get the hell outa here!!!


----------



## IIJokerII

warlock07 said:


> You think this can be fixed by therapy ?


The therapy is not just to better herself, but if in the event that we do, or maybe even when, we end I need to make sure that for the time my children are not with me that they are with her that a lot of the issues she has and had even before me and her got together are dealt with and addressed. This is IC for her, not MC for us.


----------



## Q tip

*vomit*

Dude. Get real. Change your name alias to Mr Beta. Maybe Beta Max. 

Be a man or get treated the way you are. Simple as that. It's called testosterone. Get a pair...


----------



## IIJokerII

Q tip said:


> *vomit*
> 
> Dude. Get real. Change your name alias to Mr Beta. Maybe Beta Max.
> 
> Be a man or get treated the way you are. Simple as that. It's called testosterone. Get a pair...


Thank you for your advice, point taken.


----------



## turnera

What are you afraid of, Joker? It's fear that makes us do the kinds of things you're doing. Recognizing what you're afraid of will help you hold it at bay so you can make smarter decisions.


----------



## Q tip

IIJokerII said:


> Thank you for your advice, point taken.


A pair does not mean be cruel. Read up and understand MMSLP. Read it several times. You'll learn more. You don't have to agree with everything. It's the message.

Have her served, expose to everyone. Do the 180. That will get her out of the fog. You can't deal with someone in the fog of an affair. Affairs hate the light of truth and exposure. Stops many in their tracks. Read up on Wranglermans journey. Wow.

Then you can decide what you want. If you decide to R, it's your choice. She no longer has a vote. It is a gift to her from you. Rescindable at any time for any reason. Of she does not cherish the R and her second? Chance, dump the biatch... Plenty of decent ladies out there more then willing to take her place. 

Once she feels you think this, she'll settle down or - you'll still know what to do. You can't nice your way out of this.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

She is not entitled to emotional terrorism.


----------



## Q tip

IIJokerII said:


> The Alpha personality you so describe was exactly how I was before this crap. In my line of work it is Dog eat Dog and I lived the moniker of being a Pit Bull to get what I want. I refused to take no as an answer, found some way to get my way and would never lose an argument. If I was wrong, I'd admit it immediately just to take the wind out of your sails and prevent anyone from stroking there Ego at my expense. And when I was correct I made sure to have proof and details to solidify my claims.
> 
> But I do not sleep with these people, love or bond on an intimate level. So when the one person you turn to for anything and everything smashes you ego to oblivion you tend to begin to think it is true..."You're not good enough, that's all there is to it". Being blindsided also doesn't help neither.
> 
> In the end her mistake was to allow for me to detach from her, since the residual feeling's of love and understanding have waned substantially. The echo of what once was is giving way to the new voice, and it is starting to say get the hell outa here!!!


A false alpha anyway. Can a true alpha with prober beta balance be Betaized by the Hoover? I think not.


----------



## azteca1986

Q tip said:


> A false alpha anyway. Can a true alpha with prober beta balance be Betaized by the Hoover? I think not.


Only Betas obsess about the whole Alpha/Beta thing and let it consume them.

Would a leader kick a man when he's down? I think not.


----------



## Q tip

azteca1986 said:


> Only Betas obsess about the whole Alpha/Beta thing and let it consume them.
> 
> Would a leader kick a man when he's down? I think not.


Well, he's consumed alright. Sometimes a leader provides that necessary kick in the pants to wake him up and stop groveling on the ground.


----------



## azteca1986

Q tip said:


> Sometimes a leader provides that necessary kick in the pants to wake him up and stop groveling on the ground.


To do that, you'd have to be behind them. They follow your lead. That's why it's called leadership.

ETD: We don't need to kick him further. He has his WW for that. We're here to pick him up, and help him dust himself down. I have every faith he'll do what needs to be done, when he's ready.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Paralyzed by indecision.*



IIJokerII said:


> The Alpha personality you so describe was exactly how I was before this crap. In my line of work it is Dog eat Dog and I lived the moniker of being a Pit Bull to get what I want. I refused to take no as an answer, found some way to get my way and would never lose an argument. If I was wrong, I'd admit it immediately just to take the wind out of your sails and prevent anyone from stroking there Ego at my expense. And when I was correct I made sure to have proof and details to solidify my claims.
> 
> But I do not sleep with these people, love or bond on an intimate level. So when the one person you turn to for anything and everything smashes you ego to oblivion you tend to begin to think it is true..."You're not good enough, that's all there is to it". Being blindsided also doesn't help neither.
> 
> In the end her mistake was to allow for me to detach from her, since the residual feeling's of love and understanding have waned substantially. The echo of what once was is giving way to the new voice, and it is starting to say get the hell outa here!!!


And that's why you employ the 180. Not to manipulate her but to separate yourself from her emotionally. Tethering yourself to someone who consistently hurts you is just plain masochistic. And the really interesting thing is that it will help you from becoming too codependent in your next relationship.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Paralyzed by indecision.*



Blossom Leigh said:


> She is not entitled to emotional terrorism.


Oooo, that's good. Needs to be repeated.


----------



## rubymoon

IIJokerII said:


> The Alpha personality you so describe was exactly how I was before this crap. In my line of work it is Dog eat Dog and I lived the moniker of being a Pit Bull to get what I want. I refused to take no as an answer, found some way to get my way and would never lose an argument. If I was wrong, I'd admit it immediately just to take the wind out of your sails and prevent anyone from stroking there Ego at my expense. And when I was correct I made sure to have proof and details to solidify my claims.
> 
> But I do not sleep with these people, love or bond on an intimate level. So when the one person you turn to for anything and everything smashes you ego to oblivion you tend to begin to think it is true..."You're not good enough, that's all there is to it". Being blindsided also doesn't help neither.
> 
> In the end her mistake was to allow for me to detach from her, since the residual feeling's of love and understanding have waned substantially. The echo of what once was is giving way to the new voice, and it is starting to say get the hell outa here!!!


Yes, you will get there  

My H divorced his ex and never looked back. Boy, did she want to get him back once she realized he wasn't sitting and waiting for her!! She was begging so hard and long that I got jealous of her creativity and persistance. 

BTW, what you described as a "former you" totally fits the character of my H. You, too, will wake up. It won't go on forever, because no matter how much we love our loved ones, we love ourselves more and we are committed to ourselves more. 

Don't forget who you are!


----------



## rubymoon

Q tip said:


> A false alpha anyway. Can a true alpha with prober beta balance be Betaized by the Hoover? I think not.


Yes, he can. We are not robots. We bend. And sometimes even break. No matter how much Alpha there is in his character, he is still a human being who CHOSE to trust someone not worthy of it. He will get back up on his feet.


----------



## Chaparral

If you are like me, its bill paying time. Make a list of all your bills. Give her a list with her half on it. Tell you will take a check now.

If she hollers, say one time, if you don't pay your half I'll help you pack. If she refuses to leave, tell her you will only pay half of the bills.

Cut her totally off any credit cards, open a new bank acct under your name only, empty any accts with your name on them and put in your name.

Tell her to get you statements to her accts because your lawyer needs them and any money/investments she has is half yours.

Being nice and cooperative has gotten you to this state. 

Be a new man today.

If she gets angry walk away and tell hdr you will discuss it when she can control herself. If she touches you call the police immediately.

Its time to stand up for your family.


----------



## IIJokerII

First let me say how much I appreciate this forum and the knowledge I have been able to obtain since I have been here, my only regret is that I didn't find it sooner as it would have been extremely helpful.

As Ruby and Azteca said I'll know when I am ready. Thanks to the support, however gruff or otherwise, I have received from here has certainly provided me with some much needed guidance.

My Children and I are victims of domestic abuse and violence.

I was emotionally and physically abused

My son was abused in most ways.

My wife needs to find out how to make herself happy, while not at the expense of others.

I was pushed, but had help in pushing back.

I was able to defeat her lies and recognize them more easily when they occurred.

A year ago I would have dismissed her behavior as just a woman letting her expression get the better of her and whatever other label society would use for her outbursts.

but now.

If it can't change, then I'll escape it and recognize what is was in hindsight, a severely toxic marriage.


----------



## Q tip

azteca1986 said:


> To do that, you'd have to be behind them. They follow your lead. That's why it's called leadership.
> 
> ETD: We don't need to kick him further. He has his WW for that. We're here to pick him up, and help him dust himself down. I have every faith he'll do what needs to be done, when he's ready.


And that's what's called a 2x4. It ain't post number 18 anymore. It's 250+


----------



## turnera

Chaparral said:


> If you are like me, its bill paying time. Make a list of all your bills. Give her a list with her half on it. Tell you will take a check now.
> 
> If she hollers, say one time, if you don't pay your half I'll help you pack. If she refuses to leave, tell her you will only pay half of the bills.


Exactly. And add that she'll be hearing from your lawyer.


----------



## tulsy

IIJokerII said:


> My Children and I are victims of domestic abuse and violence.
> 
> I was emotionally and physically abused
> 
> My son was abused in most ways.....


If a friend told you that, what would your advice be?

First thought should be protecting your kids.


----------



## IIJokerII

Ok gents, I have started to read the MMSLP and I like what I have read so far. Men really have been pacified by society's stereotyping.


----------



## Horsa

MMSLP is a great piece for stater. I was beta to the core at first, I did all the book suggested, but everytime my wife showered me with attention, appreciation and love, I just revert back to being beta again. Old habits just die hard. It took me 17 months and many failures to finally able to consistently be a red pill taker. Good luck and welcome to red pill world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## See_Listen_Love

IIJokerII said:


> I have got to get this MMSLP book, can anyone cliff note it for a quick summary?


There is a web site with (as I understand) the articles for free.

But it comes down to this imho:

1. Decide what you really want in life

2. Take action to get it. Say what you are going to do. Say what you expect of others. Do what you say. Do not take sh*t from others. React.

3. Evaluate your actions

4. Repeat


----------



## Chaparral

IIJokerII said:


> Ok gents, I have started to read the MMSLP and I like what I have read so far. Men really have been pacified by society's stereotyping.


Bingo


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

IIJokerII said:


> Men really have been pacified by society's stereotyping.


Yup. They sure have!


----------



## Marduk

Horsa said:


> MMSLP is a great piece for stater. I was beta to the core at first, I did all the book suggested, but everytime my wife showered me with attention, appreciation and love, I just revert back to being beta again. Old habits just die hard. It took me 17 months and many failures to finally able to consistently be a red pill taker. Good luck and welcome to red pill world.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I did, a few years ago.

And then I puked a lot of it back up a year or two ago.

The power in the red pill is that it works.

The trap is that it constrains you as much as it attracts your wife.

I'm looking for the place beyond the red pill.


----------



## Q tip

marduk said:


> I did, a few years ago.
> 
> And then I puked a lot of it back up a year or two ago.
> 
> The power in the red pill is that it works.
> 
> The trap is that it constrains you as much as it attracts your wife.
> 
> I'm looking for the place beyond the red pill.


I see MMSLP as a way to expose the lie and get a Man going in the right direction of manhood. It is a means, not the end. The rest is up to the man. It's like knowing the difference between a manager and a leader, 

Once a guy figures that out, he's has a great life ahead of him. A wife really does not want a beta manager heading up her life and family. A leader is her desire. But society seems to beat that out of a guy to be no more than a manager. And a piss poor one at that. 

Does that make life a sh!t test for a guy all along? 

Wimp or Roar...

MMSLP is a great read for all guys. But like you say, a beginning.


----------



## Q tip

Horsa said:


> MMSLP is a great piece for stater. I was beta to the core at first, I did all the book suggested, but everytime my wife showered me with attention, appreciation and love, I just revert back to being beta again. Old habits just die hard. It took me 17 months and many failures to finally able to consistently be a red pill taker. Good luck and welcome to red pill world.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Perhaps her attention and appreciation was her reaction to that new man. Not a bad result.


----------



## Horsa

Q tip said:


> Perhaps her attention and appreciation was her reaction to that new man. Not a bad result.


Yes it was, until I was back to being beta and began failing her fitness tests. 
Whenever she showed me attentions and appreciations, and usually sex got better too, I replied back by being nicer to her, and soon I was putting her back on the pedestal. And that's made me began to fail alot of her fitness test.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

Horsa said:


> Yes it was, until I was back to being beta and began failing her fitness tests.
> Whenever she showed me attentions and appreciations, and usually sex got better too, I replied back by being nicer to her, and soon I was putting her back on the pedestal. And that's made me began to fail alot of her fitness test.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's ok to fail, just get back up. Learn, fix and move on!


----------



## bandit.45

Q tip said:


> I see MMSLP as a way to expose the lie and get a Man going in the right direction of manhood. It is a means, not the end. The rest is up to the man. It's like knowing the difference between a manager and a leader,
> 
> Once a guy figures that out, he's has a great life ahead of him. A wife really does not want a beta manager heading up her life and family. A leader is her desire. But society seems to beat that out of a guy to be no more than a manager. And a piss poor one at that.


I agree with the overall theory of this. But let's remind ourselves how many BHs have come through CWI who were good managers and leaders already in their marriages...and still got cheated on. 

Being a macho stud hombre alpha is no guarantee a wife won't cheat on you. None at all. Cheaters cheat because of the brokenness inside of them, not because of what their BS does or does not do.


----------



## IIJokerII

The last couple of months have been interesting to say the least. I got in contact with my mother who resides in Australia and told her what was happening. Simply put she merely asked what I needed, money for a retainer fee. I asked a friend from additional assistance and got it as well. I asked her Father and step-mother for help in getting the kids off to school in the morning and they supported this request.

Soon after the wife shows me her texts between her and the Cali POSOM, which clearly indicated that the relationship cooled off and died, began a stretch of her acting inappropriate and me challenger her to change her behavior. This went on for a while and although I was assertive and firm I was reasonable and respectful, at least at first, when I brought my complaints to the table. The result was her wanting a separation, I agreed but made it a point that once gone she stays gone and I Divorce full bore.

Of course this got her to cool her head, if only for a moment. Since then I caught her in so many lies it isn't even funny. She even started sexting 2 guys and calling at least one of them. Armed with the tools that I learned from this place and using a VAR in strategic places I was able to get the evidence and confront. Like always she was surprised, then aggressive about who this guy was, and then relented when I refused to giver her phone back, which was locked btw. Anyway, I got her to unlock it, saw the pics, demanded she call him and she proceeded to do so, he also responded to my messages about alerting his girlfriend about his activities. His response was that essentially I was a fVck up and can't keep her happy. I suppose he is right as I am not a clown.

Talking with her about it, which it all happened yesterday, she says she has a sense of resentment towards me with the reason being that since she said she wanted out, due to another man being present, that I refuse to release the evidence and proclaimed that I will kick her out and take the children due to her neglectful behavior and am blackmailing her in staying!!!? Nevermind the months and years prior of emotional abuse, neglect and domestic violence, which must never had happened. 

And for the blackmail, I gave her back the recording and she never deleted it, I took it back soon after, I offered to pay attention to all the area's she claimed she felt empty in, to help her obtain a career, get physically fit. How is this blackmail? 

Unlike last time when I caught her in an online thingy I shed not one tear, blubbered or otherwise bit of weakness. Supposedly she will have ready for me total access of everything, including her phone, on a moments notice. She has also tried to reestablish some form of control and found it irritating that I have not budged. 

The surprise though is that I am going to proceed anyway without warning, Monday hopefully. If The money I get comes thru I should be all set and the Lawyer firm I wish to use is one of the best in New England. To finally have the freedom of peace of mind is exhilarating. My only concern is when, not if, but when she more than likely rubs in a new relationship in my face if I can handle it.

But I can see the light, and my god is it beautiful.


----------



## happy as a clam

IIJokerII said:


> But I can see the light, and my god is it beautiful.


Way to go Joker. You seem much stronger now, and mentally in a much better place.


----------



## IIJokerII

happy as a clam said:


> Way to go Joker. You seem much stronger now, and mentally in a much better place.


Hell yeah, and to mildly add insult to injury for she ended up draining most of her on hand finances from nearly 6000 to 500 to cover for van repairs, food costs and other spending. With no money to afford a lawyer, at least out of pocket, I am looking forward to the proceedings once they commence. As far as documentation I have about fifteen 80 page notebooks, e-mails, a 40,000 word document, pictures, established timeline, you name it. 

Any advice from others would be appreciated for this course of actions?


----------



## badmemory

IIJokerII said:


> Any advice from others would be appreciated for this course of actions?


Get out some notebook paper and start working on writing down your step by step exit plan, in conjunction with your attorney's advice.

Number one on your list should be:

I am divorcing her ASAP and *will not* be dissuaded.

Included on your list:

Implement a *consistent* 180 to help me detach.

Separate finances by: (put your steps in order).


The last thing on your list: 

Remind myself every day that I deserve good things; I deserve better than her.


----------



## IIJokerII

badmemory said:


> Get out some notebook paper and start working on writing down your step by step exit plan, in conjunction with your attorney's advice.
> 
> Number one on your list should be:
> 
> I am divorcing her ASAP and *will not* be dissuaded.
> 
> "Course plotted, almost ready to execute"
> 
> Included on your list:
> 
> Implement a *consistent* 180 to help me detach.
> "In process, albeit it difficult to resist the hovering, but not impossible"
> 
> Separate finances by: (put your steps in order).
> "Already done"
> 
> 
> The last thing on your list:
> 
> Remind myself every day that I deserve good things; I deserve better than her.


"It is my hopes that this statement is fulfilled one day, but like Bandit has said many times, I will never get married again, its just not worth it"


----------



## badmemory

IIJokerII said:


> "It is my hopes that this statement is fulfilled one day, but like Bandit has said many times, I will never get married again, its just not worth it"


"Deserving better" doesn't necessarily mean re-marrying. Whatever improves the quality of your life is "better". The first part of that process is putting her in your rear view mirror.


----------



## wmn1

IIJokerII said:


> Hell yeah, and to mildly add insult to injury for she ended up draining most of her on hand finances from nearly 6000 to 500 to cover for van repairs, food costs and other spending. With no money to afford a lawyer, at least out of pocket, I am looking forward to the proceedings once they commence. As far as documentation I have about fifteen 80 page notebooks, e-mails, a 40,000 word document, pictures, established timeline, you name it.
> 
> Any advice from others would be appreciated for this course of actions?


make a backup copy and store it off site


----------



## IIJokerII

All materials are out of the house and non-recording material are stored here at work, a place she can not get into.


----------



## IIJokerII

I knew it was coming, last night came home from work, even called to let me know she'll be just a tad late cause she got something to eat on the way, and saw that nothing was available for the children's lunches. Although it was late she wanted to go shopping then rather than in the AM. I made it known that I was concerned it was a BS ploy or at least felt like one as she could have gotten these things earlier in the day while she was out and about.

Of course she reassured me that she wouldn't call or whatever, a claim I immediately dismissed. She asked if I wanted to go with her, an invite I could not accept since the children were sleeping. It is was it is. She leaves and lo and behold she calls and makes sure to remain on the phone the entirety of the trip save for the actual shopping. Immediately after paying for the items she made sure to call right back and stay on the line. 

Although I am sure this is simply more hoovering, I must admit that after being shut out for so long and dejected by her lack of effort it did feel good to have my concerns placed first. Regardless, it was only fleeting, can't afford to get sucked back in. I must have one of those Sith Jedi master's as a wife...


----------



## bandit.45

Then be Obi Wan.


----------



## IIJokerII

bandit.45 said:


> Then be Obi Wan.


He became old and frail and eventually decapitated...... How about Luke, without the wimpy parts!!


----------



## GusPolinski

IIJokerII said:


> He became old and frail and eventually decapitated...... How about Luke, without the wimpy parts!!


You clearly didn't see the same SW that I did... Obi-Wan *CHOSE* to die.

Don't confuse Alec Guiness w/ Obi-Wan.


----------



## ButtPunch

This thread reminds me of Lifescript. Whatever became of him?


----------



## IIJokerII

Ok, she will be served this Friday, I will be taking the day off from work to be there for obvious reasons. Any suggestions? 

Talk about nerve racking, she is going to be pissed!!!


----------



## turnera

Have a friend there with you. Record everything.


----------



## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> Have a friend there with you. Record everything.


I don't know if I can make that happen, should I keep my 11 year old home, he knows what's going to happen.


----------



## turnera

Yes, if you don't think she'll go off on him too. Have something planned that you guys are doing, like packing stuff up. Stop by Radio Shack today and buy a voice recorder. Have it running when she gets there. It might save you thousands of dollars, depending on what she says and does.


----------



## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> Yes, if you don't think she'll go off on him too. Have something planned that you guys are doing, like packing stuff up. Stop by Radio Shack today and buy a voice recorder. Have it running when she gets there. It might save you thousands of dollars, depending on what she says and does.


I apologize for lacking the details; She is still living at the house and has, presumably, no idea what's coming.


----------



## Affaircare

If it were me, and she is going to be served during the day, I would speak to the 11yo and ask if they want to be there or not. My concern is that if she is one to fly off the handle (and she is) that your 11yo would be there to not only "witness" it but may also inadvertently wind up in the path of the storm. So even though it might be a nerve-wracking day to be away, it might be safer and better for someone still relatively young to see their mom in such a state. 

You--you're an adult and can presumably handle yourself and protect yourself from whatever may occur, even if the damage done in verbal and emotional. A child will not have the same tools and abilities that you do to emotionally "defend themselves." 

So have a VAR on you and rolling at all times to protect you from any accusations of domestic violence. Stay a minimum of 10 feet away from her at all times. Have an overnight bag packed "just in case" you need to flee for safety. And check out these two articles on my website: Domestic Violence Safety Plan | AFFAIRCARE and Leaving an Abusive Spouse Checklist | AFFAIRCARE


----------



## IIJokerII

Affaircare said:


> If it were me, and she is going to be served during the day, I would speak to the 11yo and ask if they want to be there or not. My concern is that if she is one to fly off the handle (and she is) that your 11yo would be there to not only "witness" it but may also inadvertently wind up in the path of the storm. So even though it might be a nerve-wracking day to be away, it might be safer and better for someone still relatively young to see their mom in such a state.
> 
> You--you're an adult and can presumably handle yourself and protect yourself from whatever may occur, even if the damage done in verbal and emotional. A child will not have the same tools and abilities that you do to emotionally "defend themselves."
> 
> So have a VAR on you and rolling at all times to protect you from any accusations of domestic violence. Stay a minimum of 10 feet away from her at all times. Have an overnight bag packed "just in case" you need to flee for safety. And check out these two articles on my website: Domestic Violence Safety Plan | AFFAIRCARE and Leaving an Abusive Spouse Checklist | AFFAIRCARE


I can understand your point, but it is not I who is leaving. My eldest son has been living at her Fathers since February and will not return home until she is gone due to her behavior, as well as my 11 year old, our eldest together, voicing his displeasure at her actions as well. In short, she is the one who is leaving, not me.


----------



## Affaircare

Right and I get that. I understand YOU will not be leaving the home. But if she turns extremely violent, and you keep backing away but she keeps swinging or throwing things, or grabs a baseball bat (hey you never know) swinging with intent to hit a homerun, you MAY have to flee... And that would not be the time to be thinking "Gee...should I grab my important papers?" whilest trying to throw together a bag. 

What you want is OPTIONS to protect yourself in a worst case scenario. Maybe you can have a bag with one night's worth of clothes and important papers in the closet...and if she gets violent you go to the room, bring your cell, lock yourself into the bedroom, and call for assistance. She can not get TO you to physically harm you, she can not burn your important papers for spite, and you can not get blamed for a trumped up domestic violence charge. 

Get it? 

When someone is physically abusive, you just can not tell what they may or may not do, and if the choice is "stay in the home" or "get beaten with a bat" I say leave the home and live. :thumbup:


----------



## IIJokerII

Affaircare said:


> Right and I get that. I understand YOU will not be leaving the home. But if she turns extremely violent, and you keep backing away but she keeps swinging or throwing things, or grabs a baseball bat (hey you never know) swinging with intent to hit a homerun, you MAY have to flee... And that would not be the time to be thinking "Gee...should I grab my important papers?" whilest trying to throw together a bag.
> 
> What you want is OPTIONS to protect yourself in a worst case scenario. Maybe you can have a bag with one night's worth of clothes and important papers in the closet...and if she gets violent you go to the room, bring your cell, lock yourself into the bedroom, and call for assistance. She can not get TO you to physically harm you, she can not burn your important papers for spite, and you can not get blamed for a trumped up domestic violence charge.
> 
> Get it?
> 
> When someone is physically abusive, you just can not tell what they may or may not do, and if the choice is "stay in the home" or "get beaten with a bat" I say leave the home and live. :thumbup:


No material of merit or value are here anymore, all important paperwork has also been removed. I do not have a cell phone, I have a VAR (which I intend to use) and I have left a hell of a paper trail as well indicating my concerns about her violent outburst and other negative behavior. I am ready for this, I think.

If anyone out there that went thru this can provide a little feedback as to what to expect, which I know is not a standard as everyone is different, still, a hint or heads up on how one reacts when served will be helpful in any manner.

thanks.


----------



## IIJokerII

Well she got the papers today and for all the conflict I prepared myself for and/or anger came a very surprising response. She was numb, shocked and unable to discuss anything about it. Her hands were trembling as she sifted thru each page, only stating in redundant surprise about me seeking child support. I also believe seeing the lawyers watermark, the resident pitbull firm mind you, also hit home. 

Now we made small talk but nothing significant. 

What next people; Do I keep the pedal to the metal and unleash holy hell or do I use diplomacy? If she is willing to do what is needed to fix this mess what is recommended?!!!!!


----------



## turnera

If you want out, and she's amenable to what you stated in the papers, then just let her give them to you. No reason to waste more money on lawyers if you don't have to.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

*By Aztecha1986

"You will get to the point where you will demand the kind of marriage that you want. She will either get on board or be left behind."*

She gets one shot to partner with you... whether that's marriage or divorce.


----------



## RV9

IIJokerII said:


> What next people; Do I keep the pedal to the metal and unleash holy hell or do I use diplomacy? If she is willing to do what is needed to fix this mess what is recommended?!!!!!


Move on with the D. This has been going on for too long. Rather than letting her know what can happen, let it happen. You need to learn how to live alone too.


----------



## turnera

Warning, though, if she's as off the wall as you say she is, be prepared. You just caught her off guard. She WILL find a way to attack.


----------



## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> Warning, though, if she's as off the wall as you say she is, be prepared. You just caught her off guard. She WILL find a way to attack.


Agreed. Preparations have been made in anticipation in the event that this happens. Your "caught off guard" part really resonates right now btw.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Ditto Turnera


----------



## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ditto Turnera


Oh trust me, I know this is more than likely the inevitable outcome. 2 things though.

1) she was preparing to go out this morning for some reason and after she refused to stick around I told her what as coming. It really didn't sink in and she left for whatever reason she felt she needed to. She comes back, from what I expected as shopping, with 2 kittens!!!! This is confusing and irritating to boot, for many reasons I am sure you can all figure out.

2) Every time I use my computer from home and visit TAM I get all these ad's for dating sites, mostly Russian ones or cougars. Just wanted to throw it out there.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

yes, the russian dating sights drive me nuts... its like really??


----------



## Affaircare

> Well she got the papers today and for all the conflict I prepared myself for and/or anger came a very surprising response. She was numb, shocked and unable to discuss anything about it. Her hands were trembling as she sifted thru each page, only stating in redundant surprise about me seeking child support. I also believe seeing the lawyers watermark, the resident pitbull firm mind you, also hit home.


WHEW! I'm glad to hear that you are physically and emotionally safe (for the most part). I would caution you that this relative silence is unlikely to continue. My guess is that she was not expecting it, that she's in shock, and that she is basically just plotting her next move. One does not simply divorce an abuser--they will try to punish you in some way. So, again, I suggest you look over this page on my website to help you prepare: Leaving an Abusive Spouse Checklist | AFFAIRCARE

Here are some additional pages for Men Who Are Abused:
Help for Abused Men: Escaping Domestic Violence by Women or Domestic Partners
Help for Battered Men
MenWeb Battered Men: On-line Resources

The last one is PARTICULARLY helpful!!




> What next people; Do I keep the pedal to the metal and unleash holy hell or do I use diplomacy? If she is willing to do what is needed to fix this mess what is recommended?!!!!!


Joker, your wife actually reminds me of my exH a lot. He was diagnosed with Rapid-Cycling Bipolar Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder, and he was very physically, emotionally, mentally and verbally abusive. Like your wife, he continued for a couple years to hoover me back into trying to save the marriage and save the family while he ate cake. I was the one who actually filed for divorce after I discovered infidelity during false "R"...and here is what he did. 

When he was served, he came to the house and deleted my harddrive (to try to delete any evidence) and he sat in the house screaming and would not leave. I asked him to leave 15 times, and when he still would not I began to say "I am picking up the phone to call 9-1-1. I am dialing 9-1-1. I am asking the police to come," and he tried to take the phone and then tried to strangle me with the phone cord. Then when the police did come, he literally RAGED at me that it was my fault he'd have a police record for domestic violence now... 

I changed the locks, and he broke the window to open the lock. He came into the house and took a sledgehammer to the walls. He made threats. And when I would not budge and would not be intimidated, suddenly he became all nice and tried to hoover me in with flowers and promises he was "changed" and he would go do counseling. When I said "Fine, go to counseling and when I see you acting different I'll believe it--until then I think it's just another lie" he got mad. He lied to our friends about me. He lied to our business associates. He destroyed our company. He did everything in his power to make my life a living hell INCLUDING not paying one dime of child support until a judge ordered him to, AND he was made when I asked the judge for retroactive child support to the day the divorce was filed!! 

Now, Joker, I don't know if your STBXW will do all that. She may not. She may do all of that and more--we have no way to tell. But what I can say is that I would advise you to mentally prepare for anything. Be prepared for the "worst case scenario" and then if that does not happen, anything else will be something you can handle. 

I would guess that she will try every trick in the book to get back in control somehow. I would guess she'll try tears and maybe sex first, then some threats, then suicide, then actual violence. Have your heart ready to recognize that tears or sex are an attempt at control--that threats are just air projected through the larynx and lips and are not necessarily real--that suicide threats should involve an ambulance and hospital treatment (if she's serious) and honestly she's probably just trying to control you with it--and that violence may require you to go to a safe place. But DO NOT RELENT.

Regarding whether to "unleash holy hell or use diplomacy",it is my personal opinion that you should consider WHO YOU ARE and the kind of man you WANT TO BE, and then decide based on who you truly are whether you are the kind of man to unleash holy hell or use diplomacy. Do not decide based on how you've acted in the past, because we already know that guy was weak and under her thumb, right? He's not a good model. And do not decide based on what others tell you, because that is THEM...not YOU. This is about YOU and the man YOU ARE inside and the man you WANT TO BE. 

Sooooo....do you want to be the kind of man who unleashes holy hell and has a scorched earth policy? Then cool--do that. Be ruthless, like the guy pursuing The Fugitive. Never give up--never surrender! Do you want to be the kind of man who is diplomatic? Then cool--do that. And when she is an unleashed Tasmanian Devil, you be Humphrey Bogart in Maltese Falcon--cool as a cucumber, but unaffected by her B.S.! You want to be fair? Cool--play it by the numbers, ask for everything you can but no more and no less, and don't budge. 

My final words of advice for you would be to find ONE HILL you are willing to die on. In the end, divorce is costly. Even if she were to agree to all your terms (which I HIGHLY doubt she will) it will cost you in some way, and you will lose some things that are precious to you. That is what happens when you have to amputate your spouse! And in real life, many-most things are negotiable in the sense that you may want all the custody, all the house, all the fine china, and all the money, but you would be willing to give her the house and fine china as long as you get THE CUSTODY (as an example). Or you could agree to selling the house and splitting the equity, and selling the fine china and splitting the proceeds--but you will fight tooth and nail and dirty even for the HILL YOU"LL DIE ON. Get it? No one wants to lose their house, but in real life, life goes on whether you live there or some other house--as long as the kids are safe! 

There are my thoughts! Hope some are helpful.


----------



## IIJokerII

Thanks AC, your post was very enlightening.


----------



## IIJokerII

Well after spending the weekend at her mothers house, for house sitting purposes, she has made the conclusion that this is the right thing to do. Still, when I press her for what I feel is the real reason why (another man) she dismisses it, and still hasn't come clean or gone transparent, and while medicating the new kittens she got, ugh btw, every time I entered the bathroom to see what was going on she would hunch over as if to pet a cat, all the while clutching her phone in her lap to hide it.......It is in some way amusing.

I got the ILYBINILWY crap, and apparently it has been this way for a while. Whatever. Anywho, she suggests going to a mediator vs a lawyer, is this suggestible, I feel like I am in the drivers seat and do not want to relent that control so easily!!!


----------



## chillymorn

she wants a mediator because she feels she will get a better deal.

my vote is stay with your lawyers advice.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

IIJokerII said:


> Well after spending the weekend at her mothers house, for house sitting purposes, she has made the conclusion that this is the right thing to do. Still, when I press her for what I feel is the real reason why (another man) she dismisses it, and still hasn't come clean or gone transparent, and while medicating the new kittens she got, ugh btw, every time I entered the bathroom to see what was going on she would hunch over as if to pet a cat, all the while clutching her phone in her lap to hide it.......It is in some way amusing.
> 
> I got the ILYBINILWY crap, and apparently it has been this way for a while. Whatever. Anywho, she suggests going to a mediator vs a lawyer, is this suggestible, I feel like I am in the drivers seat and do not want to relent that control so easily!!!


Well, you saved her from the OM. Let her stay there until she got her sh1t in order. Now she no longer has a use for you. She most likely has another OM all lined up and is tired of sneaking around and hiding her phone. With in weeks of moving out, she'll be introducing him to everyone.

You can't be surprised that this day has finally arrived.


----------



## IIJokerII

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Well, you saved her from the OM. Let her stay there until she got her sh1t in order. Now she no longer has a use for you. She most likely has another OM all lined up and is tired of sneaking around and hiding her phone. With in weeks of moving out, she'll be introducing him to everyone.
> 
> You can't be surprised that this day has finally arrived.


I can't say for sure how accurate this is; She exhausted her funds, got further in debt and is faced with a lot of demands via the Lawyers submission of the proposed Divorce Decree. She will be tasked with paying child support and partial household bills, for a time anyway and with only a 2007 Honda van to lavish over, which she would not be in any position to afford, I simply see her just up and vanishing.

Last night we talked and she plans on living at her mothers house while also agreeing the children stay here with me. I can't say for sure there is a local OM, but I do know the choice between her coming clean and going transparent vs getting a Divorce and leaving the kids behind, although preferable and fortunate, is rather disconcerting. 

I did take pleasure in telling her that for what is worth I hate her for all her destructive actions. 

Love, huh; Natures way of tricking us to reproduce.


----------



## dadof2

IIJokerII said:


> I can't say for sure how accurate this is; She exhausted her funds, got further in debt and is faced with a lot of demands via the Lawyers submission of the proposed Divorce Decree. She will be tasked with paying child support and partial household bills, for a time anyway and with only a 2007 Honda van to lavish over, which she would not be in any position to afford, I simply see her just up and vanishing.
> 
> Last night we talked and she plans on living at her mothers house while also agreeing the children stay here with me. I can't say for sure there is a local OM, but I do know the choice between her coming clean and going transparent vs getting a Divorce and leaving the kids behind, although preferable and fortunate, is rather disconcerting.
> 
> I did take pleasure in telling her that for what is worth I hate her for all her destructive actions.
> 
> Love, huh; Natures way of tricking us to reproduce.


I've been reading through your thread Joker and I feel for you man. I know what you mean about being "tricked" into reproducing. I love my kids more than anything but the fact that they tie me to my STBX gets me angry just at the thought of it. Keep your head up and know that you did all you could and put up with more than you should have to try to save your family. In the end that's all you can do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IIJokerII

dadof2 said:


> I've been reading through your thread Joker and I feel for you man. I know what you mean about being "tricked" into reproducing. I love my kids more than anything but the fact that they tie me to my STBX gets me angry just at the thought of it. Keep your head up and know that you did all you could and put up with more than you should have to try to save your family. In the end that's all you can do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh I know sir, all too well actually. It was in a way very self soothing in a therapeutic means to talk to people here about what to do and how they are feeling at that very moment in time. This woman is facing a clearly lost battle yet she is still to proud to admit that she, and she alone, is responsible for this year of hell-o-mine.

After discovering a hand written love letter to whomever it maybe intended for I began to get ill. I am sure it is for her california EA partner, but the illness feeling was not one of betrayal or hurt but moral disgust. She lamented to this new individual that she'd never cheat, hurt him, ask him to change, accept him for who he is and.........It is sickening. I almost want to revise the letter, like I'll never hurt you....until it suits my needs, just ask my husband."

All I have now is hate, I hate the wasted years of effort, the time lost at work that she said I needed to go to cause we needed the money, he lost time with my children, not watching them grow up, their school plays, the after school activities. I hate this woman, I cannot wait for her to hit rock bottom, I will be there to gloat. Call it childish, call it immature. But I'll call it what it is, an ungrateful (See.You.Next.Tuesday) or (can't understand Normal Thinking). 

And you know, on a personal note, I had a 6 month road job in Hawaii 2 years ago. Not once, not one goddamned time did I stray or even put myself into position to do so. Beautiful woman everywhere and nothing. Woop-dee-effing-doo.


----------



## the guy

I hope by page 41 of your thread I get to read about a new chick that is hotter and younger then your ex.
I hope to read about the indifference you have for your ex.


----------



## IIJokerII

the guy said:


> I hope by page 41 of your thread I get to read about a new chick that is hotter and younger then your ex.
> I hope to read about the indifference you have for your ex.


HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! Page 41!!! Hopefully sooner.

It's funny you mention that actually as I had the same thought today. When we first met she was beautiful and like most stories here I was intrigued by her features as she had voluptuous curves in all the right places. Of course, 13 years and three children later one tends to gets a little fatigued by gravity so to speak and the external markings of pregnancy never went away, she also never lost the extra baby weight. 

But I didn't care, and in fact hardly noticed. Sure I remembered what she looked like but did not flinch at the opportunity to have sex, kiss or anything with her. Hell, even after ready the MMSLP according to Athols whole sex rank idea I soon realized that I definitely outranked her. And the last few weeks certain things have become visible. Listing them is not important, but it is the last step I think in letting her go............ And self destruct. 

I must say thank you to this online game OM and send him a thank you card, she was willing to pay any price for her happiness and I am glad that, so far, I will keep the receipt of what she spent to obtain it.


----------



## the guy

IIJokerII said:


> All I have now is hate,.


I also hope that this changes sooner then later.

Your old lady doesn't even deserve your hate......soon enough you will show her the indifference that she really deserves!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

He doesn't deserve the hate he has for her.


----------



## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> He doesn't deserve the hate he has for her.


Indeed. It is a deflating feeling and one that makes it even more demoralizing is just how she has met her "Soul Mate", thru a goddamn video game. I fought the good fight, I kept the faith. I should've known too I suppose, you can't free a fish from water.

I just wanted the satisfaction of her telling me I was right the whole time despite the reaction I knew I'd have. She told me some things, about loving him and crap, and yes it was awful to hear but relieving as well cause I knew I wasn't crazy. 

So why do I hate her, why can't I let it go, what am I thinking?

Well let me tell you; I hate her for the constant lies, the betrayal, the way she treated her step son, my eldest, the way she abandoned my younger three and neglected their needs mostly for online time with random men she met on the internet, I hate the half-assed picture she sent me when I was lonely in Hawaii compared to the all done up selfies she sent these hop-along-mcfvck-dumplings, I hate how I did all the chores, all the fixing of the house, the car, the little things, the laundry, for balming me for not having a career, for being overweight, for her unhappiness, for challenging her, for getting angry, for all the lost money I made cause we needed it to survive, for all the lost extra money she spent, wasted, all these years, all the lost time away from the family to go to work to make money that SHE said we needed, her lies to her family, her destruction of my personal belongings, her tempers and violence, her breaking household items, he getting me to take her side when I knew she was wrong, her telling these men how bad of a guy I was, her telling me her 8 month term pregnancy was lead to a stillbirth due to an assault from her exboyfriend leading to the baby's death before we got together, then seeing her vigorously attempt to set me up for DV charges, take my children away from me and find out the death of the unborn child story was a lie, that she found a Cocaine-Meth head, pot head and 11 year younger unemployed doofus more appealing than me, I hate how she took my childrens money, especially me eldest sons and his materials, I hate the false R and her mid games in telling me she loves me but only when she needed something, I hate that I lost all my second shift friends from work, the 30K as well and went from a place where I was a respected veteran to a place I simply cannot stand to the point of forcing myself to go to work. I hate how now she cares what her physical appearance matters now compared to when we were together and I got the normal, natural as is Wife, and I didn't give too turds either, I hate that when I was in Hawaii I had not one affair or even thought about it while all the other road job workers rubbed it in about how easy it was, I hate that I worked for nearly 3 months straight out there to stockpile money when I should have taken a least a few days off to enjoy the tropical paradise, I hate how I was the one who called the Churches and food aide's when times were tough when she was still trying to leave me all those years ago and didn't know about it, I hate how I had till recently question if my Daughter was really mine ( Yes she is)..... And lastly, but not finally.......... I hate how much of a fool I was for wanting her to stay with me, for our family, for us.....For feeling like a failure when she rejected me all those months ago. I fought for this!!!! 

So yes, one day I will let go of the anger, the hurt, the betrayal, and the memories of the good times that were indivisible from the abundant bad ones. I will be indifferent to her as she deserves, I will forget what she did and move on.................. And that will be the moment I die. Some people do not get the luxury of forgiveness.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Truly one of the most difficult processes I have ever experienced is grieving the loss of someone while they are still alive. You are for sure on the cycle of grief now and will be for a while. Familiarize yourself with the cycles. It would probably be a great tool to enlist the help of a counselor who specializes in divorce care. This is a burden that has been placed on your shoulders now because of her choices. But your healing will be on you, I pray you heal well and just sorry you have to carry it for a time.


----------



## turnera

Be glad you've been set free from that mess. There ARE women out there who just want a man to respect and care for. Meanwhile, read NMMNG and MMSLP.


----------



## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> Truly one of the most difficult processes I have ever experienced is grieving the loss of someone while they are still alive. You are for sure on the cycle of grief now and will be for a while. Familiarize yourself with the cycles. It would probably be a great tool to enlist the help of a counselor who specializes in divorce care. This is a burden that has been placed on your shoulders now because of her choices. But your healing will be on you, I pray you heal well and just sorry you have to carry it for a time.


The process is well under way. During our Monday night conversation when I told her I'd stop it IF SHE changed her behavior and committed only to be told no as well as needing to get over her, or it as she put it. Without hesitation or uncertainty I told her I was.

At this point I cannot afford a counselor for this evolution in my life but since I know full well the feelings will from time to time consume me I believe I can handle it, for now. Mostly cause I have you fine people here to talk to and understand me without prejudice or insult. Like Dadof2 and AffairCare I too will now also have a lifelong bond with a person I will inevitably loathe seeing in the future, especially after I see my replacement. Like someone driving around your car that they stole yet powerless to stop them all the while knowing certain people, including family, not only approve of the theft but encouraged it.


----------



## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> Be glad you've been set free from that mess. There ARE women out there who just want a man to respect and care for. Meanwhile, read NMMNG and MMSLP.


I am still reading the MMSLP and started, yet stopped, the NNMNG. As for the next woman........ I have no idea how this relationship will effect the next one nor do I even surmise on how I'd be able to sustain one without jeopardizing my children's needs, which consume my time to the max already.


----------



## turnera

Have you removed her access to any of your money? The best eye opener for a woman is to see what life is like without the financial support (hint: it sucks!).


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I truly hate this for you Joker and your kids. 

Tap into online resources about Divorce recovery and the Grief Cycle if you are going to bypass counseling. 

Yea... being replaced is going to suck.. one can only hope that by the time it happens, you won't care because you have healed well.


----------



## Squeakr

turnera said:


> Have you removed her access to any of your money? The best eye opener for a woman is to see what life is like without the financial support (hint: it sucks!).


That's assuming that the AP isn't a sugar daddy/momma, and that the rest of the family doesn't support them as well. Believe me, when others are there it chip in and pick up the slack left by the BS's withdrawal of funds, they see and live no different. Not much of a learning experience with no consequences (in fact some live better without the BS than they did with, as the family is so "supportive" of the WS that they make sure nothing is wanted in the newfound freedom, granted the WS that fall into this category are limited but it does happen).


----------



## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> Have you removed her access to any of your money? The best eye opener for a woman is to see what life is like without the financial support (hint: it sucks!).


That's been done since February, but not disciplined in practice. For example I have my own Bank account, but would how should we say be duped into thinking that we were in some sort of R and be willing to assist in what ways I could. Yes, it was effing stupid so no need to address that. Right now though she is close to being broke and since she wished to keep the better of the 2 vehicles I explained that she needs to pay for it. As well as partial joint bills and food etc. 

I will say her frustration is satisfying but also angering. I like to see her frustrated since that was how I felt when there was not enough money and maybe she gets it, a little bit but I get angry since the remedy for this is to work more, a charge that was made for me to do only to be rewarded with "you checked out" or "neglected me" crap.


----------



## IIJokerII

Squeakr said:


> That's assuming that the AP isn't a sugar daddy/momma, and that the rest of the family doesn't support them as well. Believe me, when others are there it chip in and pick up the slack left by the BS's withdrawal of funds, they see and live no different. Not much of a learning experience with no consequences (in fact some live better without the BS than they did with, as the family is so "supportive" of the WS that they make sure nothing is wanted in the newfound freedom, granted the WS that fall into this category are limited but it does happen).


 I don't think this is the case, her AP is an online EA, not a local guy and he was in debt and unemployed when they started talking. Her father will not support her in any way and her mother wouldn't even support us when we needed money for food for the children without putting pressure on her for assistance. I believe she is wanting to stay in the house, get a better job, cohabitate and then leave. 

But it cannot be this way, I do not trust her to try something or incur more destruction or chaos.


----------



## Squeakr

IIJokerII said:


> I don't think this is the case, her AP is an online EA, not a local guy and he was in debt and unemployed when they started talking. Her father will not support her in any way and her mother wouldn't even support us when we needed money for food for the children without putting pressure on her for assistance. I believe she is wanting to stay in the house, get a better job, cohabitate and then leave.
> 
> But it cannot be this way, I do not trust her to try something or incur more destruction or chaos.


This is why I stated it as i did as a basic statement and not aimed at your situation. Although I can tell that in my case, I didn't want the support of her family and wanted to provide for my family on my own (and they really didn't like me anyway, which I found was due to her lies, but once she moved out they all swept in with open arms to provide whatever little precious needed (which is why I stated it can happen). In fact was told by her family if I wanted something then I needed to get a second job and she was getting their undying support (I was already working 60+ hours a week, so that isn't possible and I do without if I have to so the kids don't. It is what it is and I am living it the the best I can).


----------



## IIJokerII

On a interesting yet effed up note I got a call from the wife from her work telling me she locked the keys in the van and can I call triple A. Sure, why not it's still my van for now as well. I call and give the number for my card, the AAA card that mother and step father have been giving to me for Christmas since 2009 and wouldn't you know, it was cancelled........Back in January.

Guess when this all blew the fvck up??

"What is January"

Right you are forum readers.

And to think all this time I talked to her step dad who offered his ear and advised his displeasure....... Fvck em!!!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Ohhhhh. Ouch.


----------



## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ohhhhh. Ouch.


Oh Blosssom (Like Highlander!!) when the bonds of this marriage are free you will see that this in as equally unsurprising as it is cowardice, in time of course.


----------



## IIJokerII

I can't explain it but I got an eerie feeling tonight is going to be interesting. Her mother wants the kids for the night and she has a coffee date with a friend, female supposedly, at 6 pm. But I can't say for sure if I feel comfortable alone without a witness here all night. 

Can't say what to expect but I've got that feeling, like something bad is going to happen. God I hope not.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

IIJokerII said:


> I can't explain it but I got an eerie feeling tonight is going to be interesting. Her mother wants the kids for the night and she has a coffee date with a friend, female supposedly, at 6 pm. But I can't say for sure if I feel comfortable alone without a witness here all night.
> 
> Can't say what to expect but I've got that feeling, like something bad is going to happen. God I hope not.


Can you set up surveillance cameras and leave for the night? Hotel?


----------



## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> Can you set up surveillance cameras and leave for the night? Hotel?


No, no camera's available. VAR is though so I will utilize it accordingly. I did call the local police station the day of the serving to inform them of what is going on as well as the status between me and her, for the moment anyway. I do not wish to find myself in a dadof2 spot, although I do have a significant paper trail to dispel any accusations, although it would take time to gather. 

This sh1ts killing me Blossom, the known unknown........

What would Conner do. Or the Kurgan, he was awesome.


----------



## Nucking Futs

IIJokerII said:


> No, no camera's available. VAR is though so I will utilize it accordingly. I did call the local police station the day of the serving to inform them of what is going on as well as the status between me and her, for the moment anyway. I do not wish to find myself in a dadof2 spot, although I do have a significant paper trail to dispel any accusations, although it would take time to gather.
> 
> This sh1ts killing me Blossom, the known unknown........
> 
> What would Conner do. Or the Kurgan, he was awesome.


Yeah, probably best not to emulate the Kurgan in this case.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I am intimate with that anticipating an abuser feeling... Can be horrible. You need to listen to your gut and not be there tonight and may even tomorrow? Or have someone come stay with you. Bring on free beer, pizza and football. Fill the house with guys and if she tries something call the cops.


----------



## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> I am intimate with that anticipating an abuser feeling... Can be horrible. You need to listen to your gut and not be there tonight and may even tomorrow? Or have someone come stay with you. Bring on free beer, pizza and football. Fill the house with guys and if she tries something call the cops.


Mild problem with that, I had my debit card cancelled due to the information being used for online purchases without my knowledge. I did make another call to the police saying what was happening and my device is in place. If she makes even the slightest suspicious move I will simply leave to her Fathers house or collect the children from her mothers and return home. 

And it is Saturday, no Footbal to watch..........College Football is no fun to watch....


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Dawww.. depends on the team. Bama is spanking the Aggies right now


----------



## 3putt

IIJokerII said:


> And it is Saturday, no Footbal to watch..........*College Football is no fun to watch....*


Blasphemy!


----------



## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> Dawww.. depends on the team. Bama is spanking the Aggies right now


No, I am not a College fan at all, too scripted, and generic, like wrestling. The Pro's however, nuff said.


----------



## happy as a clam

IIJokerII said:


> No, I am not a College fan at all, too scripted, and generic, like wrestling.


Seriously, Joker?!

Not even sure how to respond to that comment... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

IIJokerII said:


> No, I am not a College fan at all, too scripted, and generic, like wrestling. The Pro's however, nuff said.


So do you think you're husband is going to hit you when he gets there, or will he just get verbally abusive?


----------



## IIJokerII

Nucking Futs said:


> So do you think you're husband is going to hit you when he gets there, or will he just get verbally abusive?


I haven't met my Husband yet lol, I do, for now, have a wife hahahahahahahahah!!

Anywho, I am not sure what to make of this evening really. The kids are at her mothers, something they confirmed was in the works as of last Monday when they visited their grandmother so the spontaneous grandparent sleep over is relaxing the issue, a little bit.

But the wife going out with her friend, whom she usually meets during the AM hours for coffee is definitely odd. So I will play it by part and see what happens. She sleeps on the couch right now and has been cordial to a degree. She did get testy when I asked her what they "were all going to talk about" followed by the whole "we're friends and we're just hanging out". 

We will see.


----------



## IIJokerII

happy as a clam said:


> Seriously, Joker?!
> 
> Not even sure how to respond to that comment...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey, look. When you pay a school to come over and get beat down for a modest 500K just to pad your ranking stats it is akin to the old Monday night Raw matches where the jobbers would show up cause the star wrestlers needed somebody to go against. 

I am half surprised the college announcers don't call the field the squared circle....


----------



## Chaparral

IIJokerII said:


> I haven't met my Husband yet lol, I do, for now, have a wife hahahahahahahahah!!
> 
> Anywho, I am not sure what to make of this evening really. The kids are at her mothers, something they confirmed was in the works as of last Monday when they visited their grandmother so the spontaneous grandparent sleep over is relaxing the issue, a little bit.
> 
> But the wife going out with her friend, whom she usually meets during the AM hours for coffee is definitely odd. So I will play it by part and see what happens. She sleeps on the couch right now and has been cordial to a degree. She did get testy when I asked her what they "were all going to talk about" followed by the whole "we're friends and we're just hanging out".
> 
> We will see.


The 180 doesn't include asking her what she's doing. It doesnt include finding help for her van problems. You've been fired as her patsy.........errr husband.

That's just weakness. Go out and do something manly.


----------



## 3putt

IIJokerII said:


> Hey, look. When you pay a school to come over and get beat down for a modest 500K just to pad your ranking stats it is akin to the old Monday night Raw matches where the jobbers would show up cause the star wrestlers needed somebody to go against.
> 
> I am half surprised the college announcers don't call the field the squared circle....


----------



## IIJokerII

Chaparral said:


> The 180 doesn't include asking her what she's doing. It doesnt include finding help for her van problems. You've been fired as her patsy.........errr husband.
> 
> That's just weakness. Go out and do something manly.


Oh, sir, please allow me to partially explain myself and my logic, however misplaced it may appear.

The reason for asking her intentions is that although confident her OM is a long distance EA partner I have to entertain that she is making arrangements with a local guy, maybe, for the sake of solidifying that new branch to cling to. As of now she has a storage shed, with an overdue fee, her mothers house and her friends house to relocate marital materials. Her mother does not desire more stuff at her house hence the storage shed and her friends apartment is far too small to accommodate any additional items of concern. However say a local bachelor who has a lot of space may be a option depending on if she wants to remove items, claim they were stolen or that I did something with them etc I would then have a path to follow if this is the case. 

As for the AAA, Technically it is still my van too so I do have an interest and this will also dispel any public notion of vindictiveness or uncooperative actions, this will bode well when the time comes. As for other stuff, the 180 is in effect where I need it to be.

Infidelity Psychological warfare, who knew.


----------



## Chaparral

The 180 isn't about vindictiveness, its about moving forward. In effect putting her in your rear view mirror. Its NOT your job to converse with her about anything but the kids and her financial responsibility.

What you are admitting to is still ha in a hook in your mouth.

A good friend of mine tried everything to reconcile. His formerly nice but wayward left. He moved on though it neraly killed him. Loverboy dumped her for his secretary. Now he would pay someone to be her boyfriend. She was really good looking but can't seem to hook a man now and she extremely bitter.

Quit thinking about her and concentrate on how great its going to be without the B you just described above.

I mean really, what kind of moron falls for someone online they've never met.


----------



## IIJokerII

Chaparral said:


> The 180 isn't about vindictiveness, its about moving forward. In effect putting her in your rear view mirror. Its NOT your job to converse with her about anything but the kids and her financial responsibility.
> 
> What you are admitting to is still ha in a hook in your mouth.
> 
> A good friend of mine tried everything to reconcile. His formerly nice but wayward left. He moved on though it neraly killed him. Loverboy dumped her for his secretary. Now he would pay someone to be her boyfriend. She was really good looking but can't seem to hook a man now and she extremely bitter.
> 
> Quit thinking about her and concentrate on how great its going to be without the B you just described above.
> 
> I mean really, what kind of moron falls for someone online they've never met.


 Your logic is sound but I simply feel the more information I got the better off I will be to withstand any offensive, judicial, psychological or otherwise. I filed the D with the motion for sole use of the home, child support and copay for the remainder joint bills. This will not change as of now, later, after breakfast or even the superbowl.

But,

A loose cannon unsupervised can do alot of damage and with her here all day at the house I don't want to risk rocking the boat until the time is right, which is very soon. I hope to fulfill your advice one day as prescribed, but just not as of yet.


----------



## IIJokerII

chaparral said:


> i mean really, what kind of moron falls for someone online they've never met.


 hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah.


----------



## turnera

IIJokerII said:


> She did get testy when I asked her what they "were all going to talk about" followed by the whole "we're friends and we're just hanging out".


:banghead:

Why on EARTH would you ask her that? That's the epitome of weakness.


----------



## IIJokerII

Well awesome developments peeps, I caught her reengaging with her Cali EA AP, which started immediately after I served her with papers, the weekend she house sit for her mother. I also discovered some written sh1t about the characteristics she wants in a man.

But this time, thanks to the good folks here my reaction and course of action will swift as it is stoic. God, I wish I found this site in January. Still, I can't help feeling just a little hurt and somewhat angry since these characteristics were the very same ones I had and were forced to re-calibrate or abandon due to parenthood. 

I hate, hate, hate, hate this woman....... Although I am not a blubbering mess like last time I am undecided on a course of action for this? Any suggestions or thoughts would be appreciated. And R is not in the equation.


----------



## turnera

Find a way to get even with OM in Cali. It'll keep you busy.


----------



## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> Find a way to get even with OM in Cali. It'll keep you busy.


With the exception of cheaterville I do not know of an effective way. He mustn't have no girlfriend and I already told his mother and step mother, ya know, for fun. I'd love to get back at him, if I knew of some way that would have an impact.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Paralyzed by indecision.*



IIJokerII said:


> With the exception of cheaterville I do not know of an effective way. He mustn't have no girlfriend and I already told his mother and step mother, ya know, for fun. I'd love to get back at him, if I knew of some way that would have an impact.


Hack his WoW account?


----------



## IIJokerII

Too funny. Last night after going over the debt that has accumulated for the last year or so a ah-ha moment twinkled in her eyes, if just for a moment. The amount is not important but the impact of it is since Christmas is gone, other holiday and seasonal activities are not going to happen as well,

Now the look of acceptance in the face of numerical truth was quite surprising and refreshing if truth be told. She commented on me getting back my retainer for the Lawyer and using that money to get thru this hump, which is borrowed money anyways. The is in conjunction in which she worked yesterday as well as working more hours than scheduled since she, or as she put it last night, we needed the money.

Now can I tell anyone here how good it felt to remind her that she called me a neglectful father for working long hours to satisfy these abundant bills which led to me being away lots of times. I also reminded her she missed her youngest sons Football game too and even used the word Neglecting when talking about her working more for the day......I had a mental boner, and it was awesome. 

She also suggested that I go back to 2nd to make more money.....But since he behavior when this was the norm caused me to switch to 1st to begin with I feel someones stoic arrogance is finally cracking. I also got an apology for the who Neglectful father crap.......My thanks to her for that statement was just as indifferent. What a happy day..For me. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


----------



## Blossom Leigh

:rofl: mental boner!!

Now, thats funny...

That's awesome she is settling down and realizing some things.


----------



## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> :rofl: mental boner!!
> 
> Now, thats funny...
> 
> That's awesome she is settling down and realizing some things.


God I hope so, just for the satisfaction of knowing I was not crazy this whole time, and ya know what else, I almost, but held back urge to say "Why don't you have/ask your EA AP to pay for this? After all he knows the situation better than me, Right?"


HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH......... I'm sorry, I shouldn't gloat, but it's just about goddamn time HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I know... but keep your dignity... you will be glad you did :smthumbup:


----------



## bfree

Someone's in for a hard fall.


----------



## IIJokerII

bfree said:


> Someone's in for a hard fall.


I hope you don't mean me!!! But knowing my luck!


You said hard!!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA..

Any who, I got a heads up today about a FB post she put out on the 25th of October informing her social circle about us getting a Divorce, she also started the Separation apparently, citing changes in herself, my as expected upsetting response and her nobility for not wanting to fight or add to the drama as well as.........

Now I am not pissed about the post, I mean, people are bound to find out sooner or later. But the damn arrogance, the perceived nobility. I must be out of my mind. Lets see;

" I am lamb of moop, I live in pink Lemonade!!!"

Yup, I guess it was me all along! HAHAhHAHAHAHHAHAA..

I suppose the lack of wanting to fight is due to the large amounts of evidence to the contrary I have collected this year that PROVES my claim as well as her being broke. 

This internet guy must have the Co{Rooster}ck this side of the asteroid belt.


----------



## IIJokerII

Ugh, one thing is for sure I am going to have one hell of a mess to clean up after this is all over. Got pulled over the other night, just a cop running the van plate at random, an ironic thing since me and my eldest talked about how Cops run plates when driving or stopped behind a vehicle, a claim he was disbelieving. 

As luck would have it I got tagged, kinda laughed about it and presto, the Registration was not valid and had lapsed.......back in April!!!! This matters since she said (Yes, the vehicle is reg'd under her name) that she paid for it!!!!!! Now, she can't do it and come to find out the large overdue tax bill is what cancelled the Registration.... You can't make this up.


----------



## IIJokerII

Ya know, for someone who was adamant about getting Divorced they sure suck at being prepared for it. The initial hearing was today, an even she knew since she was subpoenaed, and during the morning as I was getting me and the children ready she had a shocked look on her face as to why I did not go to work, for court, and became instantly aggressive and pissed off that I did not tell her what I was doing. She made a mad scramble to get her information ready but was unable to and sent me a text asking me to tell my lawyer to delay til she is ready. 

Well since she wasn't there anyway we had to, but she will be served a notice to appear or face being brought in cuffs. Also, she claimed her mother will not take her in as she doesn't want to get involved, yet has no exit plan, money or anything really!!! I have no idea what her thought process is, maybe to go haywire and run away......who knows.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Wow.... just wow.


----------



## Nucking Futs

IIJokerII said:


> Ya know, for someone who was adamant about getting Divorced they sure suck at being prepared for it. The initial hearing was today, an even she knew since she was subpoenaed, and during the morning as I was getting me and the children ready she had a shocked look on her face as to why I did not go to work, for court, and became instantly aggressive and pissed off that I did not tell her what I was doing. She made a mad scramble to get her information ready but was unable to and sent me a text asking me to tell my lawyer to delay til she is ready.
> 
> Well since she wasn't there anyway we had to, but she will be served a notice to appear or face being brought in cuffs. Also, she claimed her mother will not take her in as she doesn't want to get involved, yet has no exit plan, money or anything really!!! I have no idea what her thought process is, maybe to go haywire and run away......who knows.


It's like she doesn't realize that you're her adversary in this. :smthumbup:


----------



## SamuraiJack

Nucking Futs said:


> It's like she doesn't realize that you're her adversary in this. :smthumbup:


It's like somebody gave the hamster on the wheel a big dose of speed.

Joker you have my sympathies.


----------



## IIJokerII

Nucking Futs said:


> It's like she doesn't realize that you're her adversary in this. :smthumbup:


Dude, your telling me!! I have no idea what the hell is running around in her mind to be real with you. She even went so far as to reflect that she acknowledged her anger, overspending and complete lack of effort cause so many problems. Then says she made her bed and will now sleep in it..... I ain't buying it though, no one is this delusional, are they?


----------



## IIJokerII

Oh and BTW, Having a Lawyer is awesome, I don't care how much it costs, worth every penny!!!


----------



## SamuraiJack

IIJokerII said:


> Oh and BTW, Having a Lawyer is awesome, I don't care how much it costs, worth every penny!!!


When my ex-wifes lawyer heard who I had hired, her first response was "Well...this will be "fair".

Heheheheheee.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

The lawyer I hired back in February flat out told me... "there isn't a lawyer in this town that will represent your husband against me, because I am just that good."

She was a barracuda female with a reputation that precedes her for sure... 

I felt I was in good hands. Glad you've got a good one.


----------



## IIJokerII

Time to KO the bully. Today, if she shows, will be the first day of court. She was already in a bad mood this morning, especially when I told her that as opposed to last week I was going into work for a bit........

Now she had since Oct 10th to get her required info together. Than a week after she missed the initial hearing. Now we had no time to get all this together, or an outfit or whatever else she needed. Hell, she didn't even have the time to remove the selfies I found disrespectful from her FB page that were cropped to not show her being topless. But we had time to buy a headset for her online communication, ya know, her affair medium of choice. 

Ring the bell and wish me luck.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Ding Ding

Best of luck today.


----------



## ConanHub

Kick some skank ass with style and a smile!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## asia

happy as a clam said:


> Seriously, Joker?!
> 
> Not even sure how to respond to that comment...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah me either. Who doesn't like ALL football? lol


----------



## Acoa

Good luck, not that you need it. Sounds like you are well prepared.


----------



## G.J.

IIJokerII just read the whole thread 

Best of luck


----------



## asia

Hope it works out for the best!


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Now go show them that your're not joking... um, wait a minute.

Best of luck. I'm hoping for the best.


----------



## IIJokerII

Well, I must admit it, I am, in a way, grateful for her actions today. Despite her irritation and angst towards me she met me at the court house with an open mind and tears. She relented to my requests for motion, met with me and my Attorney, agreed with my proposals, primary custody, exclusive use of the home, I agreed to take over the household debt from hereon out, save for some minor back payments, removed the child support motion in conjunction with her waiving spousal support. She also agreed to take down the selfies of her on facebook which were sent to at least one of the OM's as well as end all communications via her online gaming shindig crap!!!

As the pro se people went forth before us we stepped outside for a smoke and I got the idea she genuinely doesn't know what she wants to do, or in life, and even shed a little doubt about getting a Divorce. I did offer my thanks for her selfless act, so far, and she replied she'd rather have the children see her in a good way some of the time vs some good and bad or unhealthy for most of the time. It actually felt like she was opening up to me. The initial hearing went quick and a follow up will happen later.

I was ready....... I was ready to unleash holy hell on her, and I think she knew it. I wanted revenge, I wanted acknowledgement. I wanted so much payback. But when she relented and every moment during this I became more tempered and calm, as if I was, well, I don't know, I'll have to think about it. 

And then after a few comments about our sex life we both became aroused and came home and had sex!!!! Call it weak or whatever but god I needed to get laid, I couldn't fight the damn feeling. Stupid hysterical bonding. She wants to stay for the Holidays but knows that I expect full effort for Domestic Duties, financial support for certain common use things and full disconnection. 

And lastly but not least. I couldn't have done it without you all, No need to name names, you all had a helping hand in it. But I will keep on the offensive, collect information, strategic VAR placement......... Cuz you just never know, one way or another, it ain't over til it's over!!


----------



## IIJokerII

asia said:


> Yeah me either. Who doesn't like ALL football? lol


Gimme an S
Gimme a U
Gimme a C
Gimme a K
Gimme another S

Whats that spell?!!! NCAA Football.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

It is a shame that it takes this level of correction to get someone's attention that they have a problem. It does truly pay to do more sooner than less later.


----------



## G.J.

Just raised a glass to you and hope things will at least go smoother for you all


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

IIJokerII said:


> And then after a few comments about our sex life we both became aroused and came home and had sex!!!! Call it weak or whatever but god I needed to get laid, I couldn't fight the damn feeling. Stupid hysterical bonding. She wants to stay for the Holidays but knows that I expect full effort for Domestic Duties, financial support for certain common use things and full disconnection.


O.K., now you're just screwin' with us, right...

He's screwin' with us, right?

Well, did I not only, not see this coming, I can't even find it in the play book.

I hope you can get things worked out. You were going there to draw blood and I was right with you. I don't know what to say, but I wish you two all the luck there is and hope that this will work out for you.

Who da thunk it?


----------



## IIJokerII

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> O.K., now you're just screwin' with us, right...
> 
> He's screwin' with us, right?
> 
> Well, did I not only, not see this coming, I can't even find it in the play book.
> 
> I hope you can get things worked out. You were going there to draw blood and I was right with you. I don't know what to say, but I wish you two all the luck there is and hope that this will work out for you.
> 
> Who da thunk it?


Dude you ain't lying, I had all systems go for a full on nuke fest and was disarmed by her cooperation and admission. Like Acoa mentioned I was prepared to the max, but still, her self awareness is puzzling. And then the boning moment is even more peculiar. However it has been mentioned that she just may be biding time, must still be vigilant. 

Seriously, has anyone else experienced this before?????


----------



## honcho

IIJokerII said:


> Dude you ain't lying, I had all systems go for a full on nuke fest and was disarmed by her cooperation and admission. Like Acoa mentioned I was prepared to the max, but still, her self awareness is puzzling. And then the boning moment is even more peculiar. However it has been mentioned that she just may be biding time, must still be vigilant.
> 
> Seriously, has anyone else experienced this before?????


Self awareness or knowing exactly how to play you? No one has ever used a little bedroom Olympics and cooperation get out of trouble before now have they?


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Hopefully she wasn't just caught in the moment and it was actually more of an epiphany.

"Epiphany"... I know there's a joke in there some where, but I'd be reaching.


----------



## Acoa

IIJokerII said:


> Seriously, has anyone else experienced this before?????



My ex rolled over in court and gave me everything I asked for. I wasn't unreasonable, and didn't leave he destitute, but she could have fought for more and made my life hell. 

Her lawyer didn't even show up for court as he advised her not to accept my deal. So at our status hearing she accepted to go pro se rather than ask for an extension. 

I didn't however take her home after and bone her. (Although she would have loved that) Don't let those bonding chemicals get to your head. There are other ways and other fish in the sea to scratch that itch.


----------



## IIJokerII

Acoa said:


> My ex rolled over in court and gave me everything I asked for. I wasn't unreasonable, and didn't leave he destitute, but she could have fought for more and made my life hell.
> 
> Her lawyer didn't even show up for court as he advised her not to accept my deal. So at our status hearing she accepted to go pro se rather than ask for an extension. .


I am curious Acoa, why did she relent?


----------



## Acoa

IIJokerII said:


> I am curious Acoa, why did she relent?



Guilt, shame and in hopes that by submitting I might give her another chance in the future. 

It didn't hurt that she wanted the house, but I would have won it in a fight. Accepting my deal was the only way she was walking away with ownership. I still have exclusive use of the home until the youngest graduates, then it's hers.


----------



## IIJokerII

Acoa said:


> Guilt, shame and in hopes that by submitting I might give her another chance in the future.
> 
> It didn't hurt that she wanted the house, but I would have won it in a fight. Accepting my deal was the only way she was walking away with ownership. I still have exclusive use of the home until the youngest graduates, then it's hers.


Do you get any financial benefit from it or......


----------



## Pluto2

Joker, we never went to court. My ex gave me pretty much what I wanted in the separation agreement. I was generous, even my attorney told me I was giving him too much-but I wanted out. However, since then he never passes up an opportunity to tell people how "utterly unreasonable" the agreement was. He likes to be seen as the victim of his own infidelity.


----------



## IIJokerII

Pluto2 said:


> He likes to be seen as the victim of his own infidelity.


I am expecting this to be sure. So lets throw this out there to see what others think, since my mind can and does work a mile a minute.

She has almost no money and bills that have to get paid, vehicle taxes, reregistration, storage shed, and many others, yet she cannot even begin to do so. 

She hasn't, supposedly, asked her mother to live at her house yet and states she already was told her mother did not want her to stay there nor wished to get involved. So even though she supposedly has no solid place to stay she still submitted to the exclusive use of the house motion.

She waived any push for spousal support, for now anyway, so no income will be received from me. 

If she does live with her mother the back and forth traveling to her job will wear on her financially, van with 200k miles eats lots of gas. She plans on staying at her current place of employ vs getting a transfer.

She only wants some marital property for now, namely just one of the TV's and a few other minor things but nothing of real impact.

Now, all of this was from her actions and inactions regarding many years, and this one especially, but she seems so unwilling to acknowledge what appears to be illogical decision process. She will leave a stable, secure home from an obvious proven partner, her children, and such for a lifestyle of uncertainty. Is this her way of cutting all ties before she rides off into the sunset with her Cali or Ohio online AP, as a way of saying sorry for the damage, sorry for the everything..... And then presto. Maybe this is also her rationale for wanting to still live together during the holidays as well. 

What should I make of this?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I say ... let time reveal the answer


----------



## turnera

Just sounds like a person who's never had to deal with consequences and thus doesn't realize what they look like. It'll be her growth period.


----------



## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> Just sounds like a person who's never had to deal with consequences and thus doesn't realize what they look like. It'll be her growth period.


Interesting point, I never thought of that.


----------



## Suspecting2014

IIJokerII said:


> I am expecting this to be sure. So lets throw this out there to see what others think, since my mind can and does work a mile a minute.
> 
> She has almost no money and bills that have to get paid, vehicle taxes, reregistration, storage shed, and many others, yet she cannot even begin to do so.
> 
> She hasn't, supposedly, asked her mother to live at her house yet and states she already was told her mother did not want her to stay there nor wished to get involved. So even though she supposedly has no solid place to stay she still submitted to the exclusive use of the house motion.
> 
> She waived any push for spousal support, for now anyway, so no income will be received from me.
> 
> If she does live with her mother the back and forth traveling to her job will wear on her financially, van with 200k miles eats lots of gas. She plans on staying at her current place of employ vs getting a transfer.
> 
> She only wants some marital property for now, namely just one of the TV's and a few other minor things but nothing of real impact.
> 
> Now, all of this was from her actions and inactions regarding many years, and this one especially, but she seems so unwilling to acknowledge what appears to be illogical decision process. *She will leave a stable, secure home from an obvious proven partner, her children, and such for a lifestyle of uncertainty. Is this her way of cutting all ties before she rides off into the sunset with her Cali or Ohio online AP*, as a way of saying sorry for the damage, sorry for the everything..... And then presto. Maybe this is also her rationale for wanting to still live together during the holidays as well.
> 
> What should I make of this?


This is not your business anymore, is her call, was her choice.

Focus on your kids, they must be at this point your main duty, they dont deserve you have another try with her...

Rebuild your life, move on and wont turn back.

She needs fall harder to realize what she lost and what she wants. I belive she will run from this reality and after realizing what happened she will break down.

She is not your responsability any more.


----------



## michzz

Please tell me you are still going through with the divorce and that you won't have sex with her anymore.

You do realize that that is her ultimate weapon against you, right?

And get tested for STDs since you did that.

Did I mention that you must finalize this divorce?!!


----------



## Pluto2

michzz said:


> Please tell me you are still going through with the divorce and that you won't have sex with her anymore.
> 
> You do realize that that is her ultimate weapon against you, right?
> 
> And get tested for STDs since you did that.
> 
> Did I mention that you must finalize this divorce?!!




:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say she really feels to me like she needs an in house treatment program for codependence. She is lost and even is starting to see just how lost she is. She needs help. And she needs to help herself to professional services.

Something along this level...
http://www.thebridgetorecovery.com/codependency-treatment.html?gclid=CIq9laaQjMICFYcCaQodxiIA1Q


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

IIJokerII said:


> And then after a few comments about our sex life we both became aroused and came home and had sex!!!! Call it weak or whatever but god I needed to get laid, I couldn't fight the damn feeling. Stupid hysterical bonding. She wants to stay for the Holidays but knows that I expect full effort for Domestic Duties, financial support for certain common use things and full disconnection.
> 
> And lastly but not least. I couldn't have done it without you all, No need to name names, you all had a helping hand in it. But I will keep on the offensive, collect information, strategic VAR placement......... Cuz you just never know, one way or another, it ain't over til it's over!!


There could be more than on reason why she did this(we know why you did it  ).

Some reasons more self serving, but there is the chance that she found herself standing at the precipice. Looking down at the unknown she was about to hurl herself into. Turned back around to see you standing on familiar and solid ground. She then decided, or realized what she'd be loosing, what she had already lost, was not worth that leap.

Let's face it, as much as we like to harp on WS's, many of them were/are still in some form of love with the BS's. Regardless of what she has, or hasn't done, I'm pretty sure that she still loves you. I know that you still love her. If you're careful, the worst that is going to happen is one of you decides that it isn't working and you break up anyway.

You know the drill. Monitor to verify that she is indeed truly interested in being with you, for the right reason. Love.

I really, really, really do hope that this works does work out. She earns her way back and that you two only get to, then eventually have a better relationship than you'd ever had before.

Hope for the best while always being ready for the worst.

Did I mention that I hope this works out?...


----------



## BrockLanders

michzz said:


> Please tell me you are still going through with the divorce and that you won't have sex with her anymore.
> 
> You do realize that that is her ultimate weapon against you, right?
> 
> And get tested for STDs since you did that.
> 
> Did I mention that you must finalize this divorce?!!


I doubt it was any sort of trap. She sees him fully in control and it's attractive to her.

But dear lord, I hope you wore a condom. Can you imagine the mess of her getting pregnant?


----------



## IIJokerII

BrockLanders said:


> I doubt it was any sort of trap. She sees him fully in control and it's attractive to her.
> 
> But dear lord, I hope you wore a condom. Can you imagine the mess of her getting pregnant?


 I think so as well, but I also believe she is having a hard time letting go as well. As for Protection, all good there. I wish I had the patience to detail our conversation, lot to deduce from it. But regardless, in short, my way or the hard way. A year of planning this and preparing did pay off though.


----------



## G.J.

IIJokerII said:


> I think so as well, but I also believe she is having a hard time letting go as well. As for Protection, all good there. I wish I had the patience to detail our conversation, lot to deduce from it. But regardless, in short, my way or the hard way. A year of planning this and preparing did pay off though.


:smthumbup:


----------



## Acoa

IIJokerII said:


> Do you get any financial benefit from it or......



Yup, much lower alimony, for only 3 years (state law would give her 23) and it terminates if she starts earning over a certain amount. And that bar is low enough there is a good chance she will hit that before the 3 years expire.


----------



## IIJokerII

Acoa said:


> Yup, much lower alimony, for only 3 years (state law would give her 23) and it terminates if she starts earning over a certain amount. And that bar is low enough there is a good chance she will hit that before the 3 years expire.


Man, what the hell did you have on her?


----------



## Acoa

IIJokerII said:


> Man, what the hell did you have on her?



I play nice with her family and don't give them any more details than she cheated on me. Not that it was with multiple people and that she brought them around the kids and would skip family events to go bone other men.

And she gets all the equity in the house plus half of the 401k, which isn't chump change. 

So to avoid the embarrassment of all the details getting out she took the money and ran.


----------



## LongWalk

Your WW knows she is on probation and sex is good behavior. Keep the divorce going. Wait and see how things look when you boil the turkey bone soup.


----------



## IIJokerII

LongWalk said:


> Your WW knows she is on probation and sex is good behavior. Keep the divorce going. Wait and see how things look when you boil the turkey bone soup.


 I am, in fact, going to have her leave this Sunday. Of all of my demands, reasonable ones mind you, none have yet to be fulfilled. And since she still refuses to go clear a consequence of merit must be enacted. The damn selfies are still there on her FB page that she sent to the OM(s). Many other things but it is the holiday and all so I will wait till tomorrow to drop the bomb. 

Keep pushing, nothing more to do here.


----------



## LongWalk

Good.

Have you copied the pictures?

She is like many cheaters in thinking that sex is the universal currency of moral compensation. 

How are you going to get through the holidays with this hanging over you?


----------



## LongWalk

Some stuff you wrote earlier when the Guy said that he hoped by page 41 you'd be divorced and have a new girlfriend:



IIJokerII said:


> HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! Page 41!!! Hopefully sooner.
> 
> It's funny you mention that actually as I had the same thought today. When we first met she was beautiful and like most stories here I was intrigued by her features as she had voluptuous curves in all the right places. Of course, 13 years and three children later one tends to gets a little fatigued by gravity so to speak and the external markings of pregnancy never went away, she also never lost the extra baby weight.
> 
> But I didn't care, and in fact hardly noticed. Sure I remembered what she looked like but did not flinch at the opportunity to have sex, kiss or anything with her. Hell, even after ready the MMSLP according to Athols whole sex rank idea I soon realized that I definitely outranked her. And the last few weeks certain things have become visible. Listing them is not important, but it is the last step I think in letting her go............ And self destruct.
> 
> I must say thank you to this online game OM and send him a thank you card, she was willing to pay any price for her happiness and I am glad that, so far, I will keep the receipt of what she spent to obtain it.


The crazy put the kids to bed at 5:30... unforgettable.



> She treated our children during this recent ordeal, pre semi-ultimatum, like crap. Afterschool activity's were not attended, meals were not properly prepared, the house was not taken care of, and yes, I do the dishes and laundry. almost primariliy at that. The most disturbing part though is that she sent them to bed at 5:30 pm one night and even though my 11 and 15 year old confirmed this she swears that this is untrue.


Her thinking is so muddled. You are the boss in your relationship and she resents it but is willing to sleep with the boss to keep her job. However, she is not willing to do her job properly.


----------



## IIJokerII

LongWalk said:


> Good.
> 
> Have you copied the pictures?
> 
> She is like many cheaters in thinking that sex is the universal currency of moral compensation.
> 
> How are you going to get through the holidays with this hanging over you?


So far so good, we had Thanksgiving dinner with her mom and stepfather and other in law members who all know the truth and that we are getting Divorced, or at least it is on the table. Although no one was rude and/or otherwise it was certainly impersonal and somewhat cold if you will. 

As for the pictures, they and everything else is in a secure location that cannot be reached by her in any circumstances.


----------



## IIJokerII

LongWalk said:


> Some stuff you wrote earlier when the Guy said that he hoped by page 41 you'd be divorced and have a new girlfriend:
> 
> 
> 
> The crazy put the kids to bed at 5:30... unforgettable.
> 
> 
> 
> Her thinking is so muddled. You are the boss in your relationship and she resents it but is willing to sleep with the boss to keep her job. However, she is not willing to do her job properly.


 Yeah, the 5:30 thing is a touchy subject for her which she denies with a passion, however the 2 boys that confirm this have no reason to lie or make it up, and the internet activity also ceased around this same time according to the history so it gives no weight to her claims of denial.

The compartmentalization though is what really gets me, it is baffling to see her continue to self destruct, although for now in minor ways. For example she claims to have no money and such, something I know is indeed true, yet whenever she gets paid she buys things from her job like Holiday items and such that just past at discount rates for next year....Odd.


----------



## LongWalk

Do you feel mismatched? Never mind the cheating. I she too silly and dysfunctional?


----------



## IIJokerII

LongWalk said:


> Do you feel mismatched? Never mind the cheating. I she too silly and dysfunctional?


I'm really not sure what you mean by this, can you please clarify, sorry.


----------



## ConanHub

I think he means, I she too much of a scatterbrained lunatic to fit your personality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IIJokerII

ConanHub said:


> I think he means, I she too much of a scatterbrained lunatic to fit your personality.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, at the height of my and our happiness together I was completely wild in my thinking and behavior around her. 

For example while I was ribbing her about something she had a problem with, a told you so moment, and in the process of helping her fix whatever it was, can't remember, she said she was going to "sucker punch" me.

My reply, " Do I get a choice or is it in that order", which drew a wryly smile.

Say it slow "Sucker punch"

Making dinner so I'll add other comment about this in a bit.

Keep em coming.


----------



## LongWalk

Sorry there was typo in my post. But ConanHub got it right


----------



## IIJokerII

Well I threw down the challenge gauntlet and demanded the selfies to come down and access to her phone to prove she was clean.... After being shot down I cited my exclusive rights to the home and asked her to leave. She went to her mothers house to make arrangements to stay there and when she returned it was obvious her mother was less than thrilled about not only needed to stay there but also the reasons why.

She, the STBXW, also made it a point to still deny hiding anything and that when this is all over THEN she will pursue a relationship with this OM. She then got all pissed off about me not allowing her to come and go as she pleases in the morning to get the children off to school. I cited that since she is unreliable as well as prohibiting her from the house will keep her free of blame in case something goes wrong or other issue in the house while I am not there to validate her innocence. 

Time to practice what I have been preaching. Still I hate to have the "Lose" feeling, ya know. I mean, short of her growing a penis and challenging me to a fight, I should feel victorious in the face of a cowardice, abusive, neglectful, lying cheating Bee-otch. I even had to admit that some of the words she said hit hard about how I am taking HER kids away and yet when I pointed out that she completely ignored them to facilitate her affair(s) then suddenly I am the A55hole. I suppose this resonates with me since she makes these statements with passion and anger and by now I should know better.


----------



## Suspecting2014

IIJokerII said:


> Well I threw down the challenge gauntlet and demanded the selfies to come down and access to her phone to prove she was clean.... After being shot down I cited my exclusive rights to the home and asked her to leave. She went to her mothers house to make arrangements to stay there and when she returned it was obvious her mother was less than thrilled about not only needed to stay there but also the reasons why.
> 
> She, the STBXW, also made it a point to still deny hiding anything and that when this is all over THEN she will pursue a relationship with this OM. She then got all pissed off about me not allowing her to come and go as she pleases in the morning to get the children off to school. I cited that since she is unreliable as well as prohibiting her from the house will keep her free of blame in case something goes wrong or other issue in the house while I am not there to validate her innocence.
> 
> Time to practice what I have been preaching. Still I hate to have the "Lose" feeling, ya know. I mean, short of her growing a penis and challenging me to a fight, I should feel victorious in the face of a cowardice, abusive, neglectful, lying cheating Bee-otch. I even had to admit that some of the words she said hit hard about how *I am taking HER kids away and yet when I pointed out that she completely ignored them to facilitate her affair(s) then suddenly I am the A55hole*. I suppose this resonates with me since she makes these statements with passion and anger and by now I should know better.


Well, this is typically pissed cheaters behavior! She is the one who shattered her family not you. In cheaters mind they are entitled to do alot of things without consequences, things that BS are not allowed to.

If feeling guilty REMEMBER all that she has done.

Avoid this kind of conversations with her in other to detach and move on.

As you can see now, there was not a change in her, it was all manipulative strategy to buy time no matter how much damage could it make.

Keep moving and dont look back.


----------



## IIJokerII

Suspecting2014 said:


> Well, this is typically pissed cheaters behavior! She is the one who shattered her family not you. In cheaters mind they are entitled to do alot of things without consequences, things that BS are not allowed to.
> 
> If feeling guilty REMEMBER all that she has done.
> 
> Avoid this kind of conversations with her in other to detach and move on.
> 
> As you can see now, there was not a change in her, it was all manipulative strategy to buy time no matter how much damage could it make.
> 
> Keep moving and dont look back.


I'm trying to, and so far so good I guess. I am glad you people are here to let me know I am not crazy or delusional. I suppose at this point it is like detaching a limb that is infected with gangrene and despite all the benefits long term it is still tough to lose my arm. 

Any advice on how to handle the inevitable rub it in my face act that she will do with the OM? Although her family does not agree with her actions I know none will protest this publically and just cannot wait to see my seat at the table filled with another. I think this is the last part I need a little help dealing with and I will be ok afterward. Again, that losing feeling. That feeling of not being good enough to be good enough. Feels kind of like Junior high mentality " You're not cool enough for this party" type sh1t. 

So how do I get over this little and last hurdle?


----------



## Suspecting2014

IIJokerII said:


> I'm trying to, and so far so good I guess. I am glad you people are here to let me know I am not crazy or delusional. *Your are not, everybody here are trying to help, this is what TAM is for* I suppose at this point it is like detaching a limb that is infected with gangrene and despite all the benefits long term it is still tough to lose my arm. *IMO this analogy is not accurate because you are not losing anything (at this point you cant see it). Is more like a very painful disease with a very painful treatment, because at the end you will be better and stronger than long time before.*
> 
> Any advice on how to handle the inevitable rub it in my face act that she will do with the OM? *This is a defence machanism, her realtion wont lats, or even start. The best way to deal with it is avoid contact, avoid people telling you about, commond friends, etc*.Although her family does not agree with her actions I know none will protest this publically and just cannot wait to see my seat at the table filled with another. I think this is the last part I need a little help dealing with and I will be ok afterward. Again, that losing feeling. That feeling of not being good enough to be good enough*This is not your fault, if you are feeling taht way get some IC*. Feels kind of like Junior high mentality " You're not cool enough for this party" type sh1t.
> 
> So how do I get over this little and last hurdle?


Imporving your self, avoiding contact (keep it at mimimum for the kids), trying to live well (go with frineds, get a hoby, etc.) and time..


----------



## bfree

As for her replacing you with him...who cares? She can run away from you but she can't run away from herself.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

After my H's affair I began competing with against another woman in my own home even though she wasn't there. One day I just stopped when I realized that had my H ever left me no matter how hard he looks he would never find another me, ever. I am TOTALLY unique. This woman had NOTHING on me. He leaves me, he leaves a LOT behind. Your wife is leaving a LOT behind. You are TOTALLY unique. This man has NOTHING on you. Now it's just time to own it.


----------



## turnera

IIJokerII said:


> Any advice on how to handle the inevitable rub it in my face act that she will do with the OM? Although her family does not agree with her actions I know none will protest this publically and just cannot wait to see my seat at the table filled with another. I think this is the last part I need a little help dealing with and I will be ok afterward. Again, that losing feeling. That feeling of not being good enough to be good enough. Feels kind of like Junior high mentality " You're not cool enough for this party" type sh1t.
> 
> So how do I get over this little and last hurdle?


Several things. First, if she dares do it in person, this is very effective: shake your head like 'what a putz', laugh at your inside joke of what a ho he's getting, and walk away laughing.

Second, who cares what her family does? If they accept cheating hos bringing home the flavor of the week, that's THEIR failing. They deserve what they get.

Third, the last thing you describe is why you need to be in therapy. To learn to love yourself and realize SHE screwed up, not you.


----------



## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> Third, the last thing you describe is why you need to be in therapy. To learn to love yourself and realize SHE screwed up, not you.


 This place is the only therapy I can afford for the moment. Nearly every week a new problem, or more accurately, an old problem surfaces that needs financial attention. Before I'd simply work the weekend to make the difference. But now...

On a brighter note I did have an interview with a different role in the same department I am working now that will offer a raise in pay and more flexible hours to assist me in my new lifestyle of being a single parent. Just saying that sounds surreal. 

I am going to be a single father of four caretaking for a family demand and household while she gets to go out and party and la-de-fuvk-ing-da as she pleases. I know this will in the end be a burden for her and lead to her spinning totally out of control. Of course I have to wait. 

But man, just once I wanted the goddamn satisfaction of her admitting she was wrong. I know, I know, it will never happen and it is in the end a waste of energy. I would've given my left macadamia just to have her look at me with the courage to admit she was, is, wrong.


----------



## turnera

IIJokerII said:


> This place is the only therapy I can afford for the moment. Nearly every week a new problem, or more accurately, an old problem surfaces that needs financial attention.


The library's full of books that can help you. And they're free to read.


----------



## turnera

IIJokerII said:


> But man, just once I wanted the goddamn satisfaction of her admitting she was wrong. I know, I know, it will never happen and it is in the end a waste of energy. I would've given my left macadamia just to have her look at me with the courage to admit she was, is, wrong.


My dad, through his wife, nearly ruined my life at one point. Literally on his deathbed, in the hospice, he acknowledged how horrible she was and how much damage she did. You never know.


----------



## Squeakr

turnera said:


> The library's full of books that can help you. And they're free to read.


Some books can be good for ideas and perspective, but books are no replacement for face to face interaction and exchange, as the books (unless they are choose your own adventure) are set in how they handle a situation and end. 

Books generally can't and don't don't take into account the little variances that come with day to day life and dealing with each person being an individual (and if they do they are generally so "all over the place" that they really offer no reliable help). It is never helpful to hear or read, just put it aside and get on with your life. Although good ideas, they aren't helpful when someone has no tools to make this happen (and sometimes that main tool is just speaking about about it, which a book does nothing for).


----------



## turnera

Squeakr said:


> Some books can be good for ideas and perspective, but books are no replacement for face to face interaction and exchange, as the books (unless they are choose your own adventure) are set in how they handle a situation and end.
> 
> Books generally can't and don't don't take into account the little variances that come with day to day life and dealing with each person being an individual (and if they do they are generally so "all over the place" that they really offer no reliable help). It is never helpful to hear or read, just put it aside and get on with your life. Although good ideas, they aren't helpful when someone has no tools to make this happen (and sometimes that main tool is just speaking about about it, which a book does nothing for).


I've known quite a few people who have found a book that speaks to them and used it to turn their lives around. For instance, the book _Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men_ has been cited by three women I know for giving them the impetus and skills to leave abusive husbands. Another person told me that _Emotional Alchemy_ helped them understand how the brain is hardwired to comfort and how to change their own hardwiring so as to choose healthier actions. 

He says he'd like to be in therapy but can't afford it. In the MEANTIME, which is what I said, educating himself on what he's going through and the psychological underpinnings of it can help him tremendously, if nothing else than to understand he's not alone and that people can pull themselves out of the morass, so that depression is not so tightly placed on his doorstep. 

Nearly every book I've read on psychology and relationships has helped me put one more piece into the puzzle, just because my knowledge base grows.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Squeakr said:


> Some books can be good for ideas and perspective, but books are no replacement for face to face interaction and exchange, as the books (unless they are choose your own adventure) are set in how they handle a situation and end.
> 
> Books generally can't and don't don't take into account the little variances that come with day to day life and dealing with each person being an individual (and if they do they are generally so "all over the place" that they really offer no reliable help). It is never helpful to hear or read, just put it aside and get on with your life. Although good ideas, they aren't helpful when someone has no tools to make this happen (and sometimes that main tool is just speaking about about it, which a book does nothing for).


Books have been the main catalyst of my freedom from abuse.


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## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> Books have been the main catalyst of my freedom from abuse.


While I can't dismiss or discredit books as being a good source of information what is lacking is the actual experience which is a little bit painful and depressing while simultaneously liberating and reliving as well. And though I am fighting the pull of her lies and gaslighting it is still very difficult to process these emotions, especially with no time to really mourn the end, too much to do and people depend on me, as well as just life goes on in general. 

It would be like reading about pregnancy and/or a male orgasm. Sure, you have a general description of what this moment or condition would feel like but without actually going thru it one must rely on other experiences to guide them thru the unknown. Does this make any sense?


----------



## Squeakr

IIJokerII said:


> While I can't dismiss or discredit books as being a good source of information what is lacking is the actual experience which is a little bit painful and depressing while simultaneously liberating and reliving as well. And though I am fighting the pull of her lies and gaslighting it is still very difficult to process these emotions, especially with no time to really mourn the end, too much to do and people depend on me, as well as just life goes on in general.
> 
> It would be like reading about pregnancy and/or a male orgasm. Sure, you have a general description of what this moment or condition would feel like but without actually going thru it one must rely on other experiences to guide them thru the unknown. Does this make any sense?


This makes perfect sense to me and what I was trying to relay. Although books can be a good source of information, and can provide a decent clinical explanation of things, unless the person is able to interpret and respond appropriately on their own, they need the guidance of others to get the bets benefit, IMHO.


----------



## Affaircare

IIJokerII said:


> I'm trying to, and so far so good I guess. I am glad you people are here to let me know I am not crazy or delusional. I suppose at this point it is like detaching a limb that is infected with gangrene and despite all the benefits long term it is still tough to lose my arm.
> 
> Any advice on how to handle the inevitable rub it in my face act that she will do with the OM? Although her family does not agree with her actions I know none will protest this publically and just cannot wait to see my seat at the table filled with another. I think this is the last part I need a little help dealing with and I will be ok afterward. Again, that losing feeling. That feeling of not being good enough to be good enough. Feels kind of like Junior high mentality " You're not cool enough for this party" type sh1t.
> 
> So how do I get over this little and last hurdle?


IIJokerII~

I think turnera mentioned books because you said that you could not afford therapy at this time. If "free" is the budget for your self-improvement, then books may be a way for you to at least do something. Another few ideas might be something like: 
1) Church counseling - if you go to a church AND trust the wisdom of your pastor
2) Support groups - there may be a divorce support group in your area or a rebuilding after divorce group...something like that where you'd invest an hour a week, meet other people going through something similar, and be able to talk through and work through some of the common issues you're feeling. 
3) Workbooks - I personally did this workbook and it was very helpful for me: Rebuilding: When Your Relationship Ends by Bruce Fisher | 9781886230699 | Paperback | Barnes & Noble
4) A mentor - do you have a friend or someone you look up to who has been through a divorce and successfully navigated it and grew as a man? See if that person would be willing to be your mentor and yes it's just peer-to-peer but it would be someone who knows you and might be able to see the forest whereas you only see "the trees"

Now regarding your actual question:


> Any advice on how to handle the inevitable rub it in my face act that she will do with the OM? Although her family does not agree with her actions I know none will protest this publically and just cannot wait to see my seat at the table filled with another. I think this is the last part I need a little help dealing with and I will be ok afterward. Again, that losing feeling. That feeling of not being good enough to be good enough. Feels kind of like Junior high mentality " You're not cool enough for this party" type sh1


My first husband had a public affair with an assistant manager at one of our client's sites. Our business ended because of it, and he publically dumped me and the kids to be with her and move to her state. I thought at the time that at minimum his family would say "HEY MAN! Stop running around like a [email protected] and work things out with your wife and kids!" Nope. Once they figured out what he was up to, they "didn't want to get involved" and would not even tell him that what he was doing was wrong. In real life, they sat back and let him do it and drank his koolaide without ever even checking a fact. At the time, this made me feel like I never meant anything to them, and for decades I had considered them my own family! So yeah, it was a kick in the teeth. 

My Dear Hubby's Ex's family did the same thing--well similar. XW's father told her she was wrong and they were estranged literally until the day he died. XW's mom would go talk to her "in secret" and told her that baloney about "she deserved to be happy"  And her siblings all basically followed suit--drinking her koolaide and never checking a fact. 

What Dear Hubby and I have both learned is that we can not control what people will and will not do, and the chances of them taking YOUR side over their own daughter or sister are nil to nothing. Some families have the moral fortitude to say "We will not allow an affair partner in our home" but most don't. Most don't want to rock the boat or don't want to judge...so they say nothing and gradually accept what is clearly wrong, because if THEY stand up and say it's wrong for the EX...then it would have been wrong when THEY did it and they'd be judging themselves!! So they don't have the backbone, and that's where the ex learned to have no backbone. 

And all of that has *NOTHING* to do with you. *NO** THING* (and yes, that space is in there for a reason). If you run around like the Energizer Bunny trying to get your ex's family to refuse to let "him" sit at their table .... or try to get her mom to say she can't stay there as long as she's seeing "him".... then the one who looks nuts and desperate is you. On the other hand, if you sort of ignore her and ignore her family, and you get on with your own life and becoming a better man, then: 
a) who cares about them and what they do? and 
b) you look calm, peaceful and together!
Then, based on actions (not words) any person on the planet can look at you and your life and your actions...and her and her life and her actions...and see who is the rational, normal one and who is the irrational, abnormal one! They may not even say it out loud, but they can SEE IT!! 

So to get past it, I say just delete them from Facebook and email and whatnot, and frankly ignore them. End all Contact. When a WS is going to attempt R we ask them to end all contact with the OP...and in this instance if the WS is not going to end the affair, they YOU end all contact with her and hers. Just cut off contact and let them see you around town looking and smelling good. Let them see you happy and adjusting well. Let them hear from someone you both know that you no longer need them and you're living well. 

There is not much else you can do. You can't make them have the courage to stand up to their own child/sibling, and if they don't have that courage they aren't worth having in your life. So what if you are not in a seat at their table? They are people who would let an adulterer at their table! Who do you want seated at YOUR table? That is the position you get to be in! Now you get to choose who you want to surround yourself with, and you get to choose who you want to have at YOUR table.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

IIJokerII said:


> While I can't dismiss or discredit books as being a good source of information what is lacking is the actual experience which is a little bit painful and depressing while simultaneously liberating and reliving as well. And though I am fighting the pull of her lies and gaslighting it is still very difficult to process these emotions, especially with no time to really mourn the end, too much to do and people depend on me, as well as just life goes on in general.
> 
> It would be like reading about pregnancy and/or a male orgasm. Sure, you have a general description of what this moment or condition would feel like but without actually going thru it one must rely on other experiences to guide them thru the unknown. Does this make any sense?


Sure... makes total sense. It's why books are not the only thing that helped me. My horses helped the most to be honest because I started protecting my personal space from a 1500 lb animal, it naturally flowed over to my humansville :smthumbup: The books became the language to keep that train going.


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## Lovemytruck

Joker,

You are still deep in the painful part of this mess. I have checked in from time to time to see how you are progressing. The point about the books from Tunera, and the GREAT advice from Affaircare should be considered.

I just went back and re-read your first post about your WW's bad behavior and EA. I read your posts today. You have come so very far in not too much time. Give yourself some credit. Even the name of this thread has been outgrown by your current status.

You are now on a path. Follow it. Move onward. Don't let the past haunt your future. The demons gradually leave, and as you continue, happiness will fill your heart again.

We cheer for you. We admire the growth that you are showing. Be patient with yourself. You will become a better man as you go forward. I did it, and I know you will too.


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## IIJokerII

Get a load of this Sh1t!!!!!! 

I come home from work yesterday, with a little bit of excitement about seeing her move out for obvious reasons, and after reminding her not to forget certain things her anger from the previous day was not present. 

At one point before yesterday she told me she was thankful for kicking her out as this was the motivation she needed to move on, so to speak as well as letting me know her romantic intentions afterward. Now remember, this was due to me demanding to see her phone. 

So last night she laments how she does not want to fight, as well as having a lot of things prepared for packing, but not really done. For example, she had bins loaded, but with easy to pack crap, a few stand alone items, but all the breakable items were still where they were when I left for work that day. Also, she still had her stuff in the van so nothing got delivered, nor did the window she broke got fixed like she said. 

We talked, nothing fancy, got a recycled version of the whole "find myself" crap, no fooled, how she only wants the children to see her in a positive light. So to interject, soon after this my youngest three came home from school and my 11 year old asks to go for a ride, which was ok since I had to pick up my 15 year old from a cancelled after school event. During the ride her told me she was very angry and yelling a lot that morning, bashing him and/or whoever for telling me how the mornings were going, on their own accord mind you, "All you guys do is rat me out to your father". Yes, they tell me about the yelling, screaming, profanity, bossing around, missing the bus and the attention to her game and cell phone vs getting them ready with time to spare or with everything that they need. 

Now back to our quiet time talk. I go more bull about many things, but must have been split white compared to her mothers house, to which she is furious for leaving without her children, saying she should be fighting for them tooth and nail. I put out feelers to see about her mothers feelings towards me to see if I need to prepare for any problems from her in the future, however this is not the case, her mother only has anger toward the STBXW. 

Any who, I kept egging away at the cell phone bit, and the new one for all you peeps out there is this gem " I'd show you but there is nothing to come clean about or expose except for me cause there is nobody but me and here I am....." Yes ladies and gentlemen, we have entered the realm of stupidity's lost area!!!! I just laughed, and laughed some more and despite this she refused to get angry, not really a response I was looking for, I just thought her reasoning is just too absurd to not be funny. 

Now this is just a guess, but I am pretty confident her feelings of independence went out the window when the reality of being forced to leave kicked in. I made no reprieve about her staying either, no phone, can't stay. She did either hide or take down the selfies though, but regardless, shouldn't have had to come to having to take this to get this kind of respect.

Opinions?


----------



## Lovemytruck

IIJokerII said:


> Opinions?


Your decision to move on has been validated one more time. Don't get lost in the daily drama. Keep yourself focused on the path you are taking.

The children will benefit when the ugly stuff goes away. So will you.

Hang in there. Remind yourself of these things when you feel you might have made the wrong choice to D. Look forward to your future and the possibilities you have without her. It is tough to split a family, it will drain you financially, etc. 

One day you will look back and know you made the right decision, IMO.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Not letting you see her phone is a grandstand play for sure.

She's so screwed up that it's not out of the realm of possibility that she just sees the phone as too much of a loss of control.

The more obvious and likely reason is she has/is either been in touch with the OM, a new OM, or at least friend(s) about the OM/new OM.

She was gone when she left the last time. She was gone when she moved back in. Now that she's leaving again, she'll be gone for good.

I'm sorry that the most likely has happened. I really hoped that she had turned the corner and wasn't just going to lie to you again.

You deserve better.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Immature abusive woman. 

Who has now lost her kids.

Sad.

They are going to mourn as to why they weren't worth her effort and you will forever be their safe haven.


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## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> Immature abusive woman.
> 
> Who has now lost her kids.
> 
> Sad.
> 
> They are going to mourn as to why they weren't worth her effort and you will forever be their safe haven.


 Is this now becoming a more normal thing for mothers these days? Back when I was little, the awesome 80's, I cannot remember seeing and then as I aged even hearing about a mother who was not present or left her children to facilitate an affair, or mid life crisis as most idiots label it as. 

I just wonder what is in store for me today, she has work, but there are always clues.

Lets have some fun!!! What do you fine people think is to become of the next few days, week or so. The winner gets a joke just for them......

My bet, be affectionate, try to install the "Hope we can be friends bit" and leave this weekend.


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## Blossom Leigh

I agree, I never saw it either.

And my guess is it is creating chaos even in the school systems since the chaos in one family RARELY is isolated to just that family. It spills over onto the families surrounding that one that just broke apart.


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## Acoa

IIJokerII said:


> Is this now becoming a more normal thing for mothers these days? Back when I was little, the awesome 80's, I cannot remember seeing and then as I aged even hearing about a mother who was not present or left her children to facilitate an affair, or mid life crisis as most idiots label it as.
> 
> 
> 
> I just wonder what is in store for me today, she has work, but there are always clues.
> 
> 
> 
> Lets have some fun!!! What do you fine people think is to become of the next few days, week or so. The winner gets a joke just for them......
> 
> 
> 
> My bet, be affectionate, try to install the "Hope we can be friends bit" and leave this weekend.



She will stall moving out until you have to literally push her boxes out the door.

She will be nice or indifferent to you and focus on trying to manipulate your kids. Yes, I use the word manipulate, because that is what she is doing. Getting angry at them for telling you about their day is her way of trying to **** down that line of communication.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

I'm guessing that she either never really stopped contact with the OM, or she is working on a new OM.

Either way, she would rather let her new relationship play out some more, before pulling the plug on her marriage/you.

If it she stayed and could continue to see the OM also, she will then only truly know if she was meant to be with the OM, or stay with you...

Yeah, that's what I'm thinkiin' she's thinkin'.

Rainbows and unicorns.


----------



## carmen ohio

Joker, a few thoughts:



IIJokerII said:


> I'm trying to, and so far so good I guess. I am glad you people are here to let me know I am not crazy or delusional. *I suppose at this point it is like detaching a limb that is infected with gangrene and despite all the benefits long term it is still tough to lose my arm.*


Bad analogy because you will eventually heal completely from this (i.e., your arm will grow back, stronger than before if you do things right).




> *Any advice on how to handle the inevitable rub it in my face act that she will do with the OM?* Although her family does not agree with her actions I know none will protest this publically and just cannot wait to see my seat at the table filled with another. I think this is the last part I need a little help dealing with and I will be ok afterward. Again, that losing feeling. That feeling of not being good enough to be good enough. *Feels kind of like Junior high mentality " You're not cool enough for this party" type sh1t.*


If you want to compare this to junior high, think of it this way: she going to end up with a pimply-faced, geeky sixth grade retard -- so who's the real loser?



> So how do I get over this little and last hurdle?


You've been around here long enough to know the answer: you work to make yourself healthier, stronger, more successful professionally and a better father. When you have accomplished that, you won't give a flying you-know-what about where she is, what she's doing or who she's doing it with -- because you'll be doing it with someone a whole lot better than she ever was.


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## IIJokerII

Today's forecast; Really fvcking odd.

I got a call from the STBXW today asking if I gave out her number to anyone, which I replied in the negative save for some parents of our children friends for contact purposes. She then goes on to explain that she got some weird texts from someone, source unknown, describing them as " Bothering" or someother. I get home today, and she was sick again, this happens everyday she has off too btw, always ill, or tired, or asleep. Anyway, I clean up and make dinner, or as I call it Wednesday night, and she want's me to hear these texts, of course I cannot hold the phone to do so.

It appears that someone with a California Pre paid number texted her from a males perspective about her being beautiful and looking and feeling like him, in a lonely marriage, and how he had always wanted to say something to her but wasn't able to. She responded with irritated intrigue and he continued to do so as well, even calling her by name. It went back and forth for quite some time and ended unceremoniously. Now, the EA AP lives in Cali so a connection can be made there but it is really odd and I have seen enough Dateline to know that anythings is possible. When I laughed at her annoyance to a married guy hitting on her via telecommunications I began to question whether or not her EA AP would have given out her number or the other guy from Ohio. With the confidence of a expected sunrise she lamented that " No way they'd give out her number". When pressed about her ignorance about who these people really were/are she simply dismissed this and reinforced her previous claim.

She did mention feeling a little scared about it though and that's when the dateline sh1t came into my mind. Will my Family, or more so children and I be targeted for violence to "free" her from her bonds of motherhood and marriage or some other crazy ass notion? Is this just some red herring crap she is pulling? 

Whats say you TAM, has this entered the Twilight zone or what?


----------



## Squeakr

I had the same sort of strange situation with my STBXW and through diligence tracked it down. Turned out it was one of the AP trying to check in/ up on her and was trying to cover his tracks. Was registered to another person and everything, but was him coming back to haunt. Funny as his D was granted the month prior, so he didn't take long to start fishing again.


----------



## IIJokerII

Squeakr said:


> I had the same sort of strange situation with my STBXW and through diligence tracked it down. Turned out it was one of the AP trying to check in/ up on her and was trying to cover his tracks. Was registered to another person and everything, but was him coming back to haunt. Funny as his D was granted the month prior, so he didn't take long to start fishing again.


 I don't think this applies as the Cali Donkey man could simply contact her in many ways that at present I'd have no way of knowing about.


----------



## Squeakr

IIJokerII said:


> I don't think this applies as the Cali Donkey man could simply contact her in many ways that at present I'd have no way of knowing about.


Same in my situation. The guy worked for the Gov in internet security and he set up several email accounts for her, gleaned her FB account of all incriminating information, taught her to use the iPhone and Apps to hide it all (or so he thought) and her work contacts information. Plenty of ways to contact that i had no access to. The problem is he wasn't slick enough and challenged me to catch him. I accepted said challenge and did. So I see a close connection, as given all his resources and such, he chose to go the route of creating a fake person and obtaining a prepaid phone to text my wife (heck he even did the google voice number with hidden name from across the country). Made no sense the level he went to but he did. Bizarro land of infidelity (like a cheater is worth all that effort??)


----------



## Chaparral

Does she even know the person she had the ea with is a real person? If she hsnt met him in person the answer is no. Tell her to watch CATFISH on MTV. It's a show about online romances that show how ludicrous online romances are.

When she tells you how you can still be friends, tell her neither you nor your next wife will be friends with any ex's.


----------



## Tobyboy

Those texts are from the Cali dude!!! He's having doubts about her, so he's testing her pretending to be someone else. Funny, she hasn't figured it out!!
Grab some popcorn and watch the train wreck!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Suspecting2014

Why are you talking to her about this? It is her mess.

Move on, do 180, and just talk about she leaving, divorce or kids.


----------



## IIJokerII

Suspecting2014 said:


> Why are you talking to her about this? It is her mess.
> 
> Move on, do 180, and just talk about she leaving, divorce or kids.


 Oh I hope I am not misleading anyone to thinking I am emotionally attached to this situation. I am merely curious and somewhat amused. But I am also concerned about the notion of having some guy who is equally infatuated "Freeing" her from the bonds of her life by removing them from existence, which would mean me and the children. This is/was more of a safety issue. 

As Tobyboy detailed, snacks are ready and am ready to move on and enjoy the show.


----------



## Tobyboy

IIJokerII said:


> Oh I hope I am not misleading anyone to thinking I am emotionally attached to this situation. I am merely curious and somewhat amused.* But I am also concerned about the notion of having some guy who is equally infatuated "Freeing" her from the bonds of her life by removing them from existence, which would mean me and the children. This is/was more of a safety issue. *
> 
> As Tobyboy detailed, snacks are ready and am ready to move on and enjoy the show.


Hold up a second. Was what's bolded actually in the texts?
So now your stbxw and the Cali dude are trying scare tactics on you? If this is case or even ifs not, the proper steps would be to file a police report and have them investigated!!!! If your Stbxw is *behind* these threatening texts, you should be very concern for you and your children's safety!!!!!


----------



## IIJokerII

Tobyboy said:


> Hold up a second. Was what's bolded actually in the texts?
> So now your stbxw and the Cali dude are trying scare tactics on you? If this is case or even ifs not, the proper steps would be to file a police report and have them investigated!!!! If your Stbxw is *behind* these threatening texts, you should be very concern for you and your children's safety!!!!!


No, no. I am sorry about that, no threatening messages what so ever, just "Confessions" of interest and feelings towards her from an anonymous source. All I am saying is that due to the nature of this situation she, as well as I, are unable to know for sure what these messages represented. Nothing was hinted at violence or related to it, however if this guy is on the "Crazy" side of life who is to say that she invited a large problem and doesn't even know it. 

Despite the lack of information I am indeed concerned and have told certain parties of interest about this "Random" encounter via her phone. If this materializes into a personal encounter at my doorstep of a violent nature that's what the Garrand is for.


----------



## Suspecting2014

IIJokerII said:


> Tobyboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hold up a second. Was what's bolded actually in the texts?
> So now your stbxw and the Cali dude are trying scare tactics on you? If this is case or even ifs not, the proper steps would be to file a police report and have them investigated!!!! If your Stbxw is *behind* these threatening texts, you should be very concern for you and your children's safety!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> No, no. I am sorry about that, no threatening messages what so ever, just "Confessions" of interest and feelings towards her from an anonymous source. All I am saying is that due to the nature of this situation she, as well as I, are unable to know for sure what these messages represented. Nothing was hinted at violence or related to it, however if this guy is on the "Crazy" side of life who is to say that she invited a large problem and doesn't even know it.
> 
> Despite the lack of information I am indeed concerned and have told certain parties of interest about this "Random" encounter via her phone. If this materializes into a personal encounter at my doorstep of a violent nature that's what the Garrand is for.
Click to expand...

I don't think you should worry about. It is on her phone, I believe is due to her outgoing behavior with OM and naked pics on FB.

IMO her lovely OM is trying to share her with friends, thats why this new guy reached her by her own phone. Well she msde the bed now is time to lie on it. 

If you r worry about this guy, por any other, shows up at your childreen home then kick her out ASAP.


----------



## Chaparral

Her so partner is from California, this message is from California, that can't be a coincidence. Also looks like she is trying to make you jealous by showing it to you.

Since you have the number, trace it.


----------



## IIJokerII

She said she already did and it came up as a pre paid California number. Regardless, as many has said this is her problem now. Catfishing, sexting, whatever, her bed to lie in. 

As far as getting jealous. I am, of some of the things she plans on taking with her out of the house this weekend. Sadly, I feel a need to contest some of these items. Other than that I am good. The only thing I think would bother me at this point is her having another man in the house while I am at work but so far no indication of this.....Yet!!!


----------



## Suspecting2014

IIJokerII said:


> She said she already did and it came up as a pre paid California number. Regardless, as many has said this is her problem now. Catfishing, sexting, whatever, her bed to lie in.
> 
> *As far as getting jealous. I am, of some of the things she plans on taking with her out of the house this weekend. Sadly, I feel a need to contest some of these items. Other than that I am good. The only thing I think would bother me at this point is her having another man in the house while I am at work but so far no indication of this.....Yet!!!*


Easy solution!

Kick her out your house!!! This way you wont be able to see what she is so eager to show you.

You know that her future relation (s) will be with POS and tiotally a mess, rigth? let her fall...

Other soluction, get a date and start living little


----------



## ButtPunch

Why are you entertaining her? You need to be 180ing the sh*t out of her. This Wed. night make sure you have plans with friends. 

Next time....Don't take the bait.


----------



## turnera

IIJokerII said:


> she wants me to hear these texts, of course I cannot hold the phone to do so.


Wait. You're saying your cheating wife wants your support for something, yet she won't let you touch the phone to do so? You know, to see her CHEATING stuff?

Time for some good old-fashioned consequences. Like 'hmm, you don't trust me to touch your phone, looks like I'm too untrustworthy to help you then. Find someone who cares.'


----------



## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> Wait. You're saying your cheating wife wants your support for something, yet she won't let you touch the phone to do so? You know, to see her CHEATING stuff?
> 
> Time for some good old-fashioned consequences. Like 'hmm, you don't trust me to touch your phone, looks like I'm too untrustworthy to help you then. Find someone who cares.'


Damn!!!!! I wish I had used that one...... That would've hit the spot.


----------



## turnera

If you like that, then just save this one - works every time: "You fired me from that position."

And btw, IMO, she SHOWED you that just to prove to herself she can still reel you in.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Tell her to ask OM As he is now in charge of her no sense


----------



## ButtPunch

I haven't read this thread but I smell " A Nice Guy", has he got the usual book advice? NMMNG and MMSLP


----------



## IIJokerII

ButtPunch said:


> I haven't read this thread but I smell " A Nice Guy", has he got the usual book advice? NMMNG and MMSLP


Read most of MMSLP and started NMMNG but drifted to MMSLP and haven't returned to it yet. As Turnera has pointed out I have indeed used the "You fired me" line, something she referenced much earlier, more than a few times. The results are awesome!!!! I have also told her to refer all needs and calls for aid to her OM's which is met with anger than denial.... It is funny to watch.

FYI, She is leaving this weekend. One way or another. 

And I do not know if I can agree that her asking me to see these texts, scripted or not, was a reel. Frankly, I wanted to see if it was someone I knew who was messing with her. Which would've been funny.


----------



## IIJokerII

Well sports fans, it's over. I threw her ass out today. After some strategic tech placement I got her. Her Ohio chum, the one she said she had no feelings for, apparently is the new soul mate. Lucky her, she found 2 in one year, most people never find theres!!!!

Anyway, she lamented her brilliance in telling me she had no feelings for him by breaking it off in front of me on the phone (Didn't believe it for a second) and how I have been a ****, a real **** lately (By letting her eat my food, use my power and even got her some ice cream, yes weak I know but I felt sorry for her) and she continued to make fun of me and my efforts and claims about her needing to refocus on us and our children then the bombshell, she had a constant fantasy she loved to enact by stabbing me over and over and over again...... She ended the call with a I love you.

Now I confronted her at work, on the phone, and made it seem that I got into her phone while she was sleeping. Of course she said the same exact **** about "Yes, I had feelings for him then we talked about it and said how stupid it was". This woman is fvcked up. 

Oh well, She's 12 years older than him and has the mileage of a mother of three on her body....I wish them well. 

I do have such a shock about this though really. No love. Not one ounce. Pure hatred. Now I have to stomach the fact of having a life long connection with this "Thing" till death. I should have done this by page 2 of this thread. I feel a combination of validation and failure in my actions. I hoped for the best.

And I also have to feel somewhat bad for the next woman I get involved with.......... I may just inadvertently treat her like ****. I was a nice guy.....He died today!!!!


----------



## turnera

Wow. Just wow.


----------



## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> Wow. Just wow.


Yup, that's about all I can sum this up to as well. Not to sound sexists but why is it that women seem to be more maniacal than men in regards to this. When men get caught they are pu55y's and mostly tuck tail and pee. But this...... "Stabbing him over and over and over again!!" is really fvkced up. I did nothing to earn this. I am still trying to process this.


----------



## GusPolinski

IIJokerII said:


> Yup, that's about all I can sum this up to as well. Not to sound sexists but why is it that women seem to be more maniacal than men in regards to this. When men get caught they are pu55y's and mostly tuck tail and pee. But this...... *"Stabbing him over and over and over again!!"* is really fvkced up. I did nothing to earn this. I am still trying to process this.


Uhhh... make sure that you share that little tidbit w/ family and friends.

And maybe the Investigative Discovery channel as well. LOL.


----------



## IIJokerII

GusPolinski said:


> Uhhh... make sure that you share that little tidbit w/ family and friends.
> 
> And maybe the Investigative Discovery channel as well. LOL.


I am going to..........I'd hate to have a wikipedia page made that I'd never be able to read.


----------



## warlock07

Did you mention the stabbing comment ?


----------



## IIJokerII

warlock07 said:


> Did you mention the stabbing comment ?


My mother on facebook, thats about it for now. This was captured via a VAR so I cannot blab to everyone, unfortunately. I am still really disturbed by this and not really sure how to process or proceed.


----------



## G.J.

IIJokerII said:


> she continued to make fun of me and my efforts and claims about her needing to refocus on us and our children then the bombshell, she had a constant fantasy she loved to enact by stabbing me over and over and over again...... She ended the call with a I love you.


She loved to enact ????

just found this on the net

A blade generally indicates that the dreamer is making some important or difficult decisions in their waking life. You must be able to make clear distinctions between available choices and may be walking a 'thin line' and must balance aspects of your life carefully. Carrying a knife in a dream represents anger, aggression, emotional conflict, division and separation. There is something in the dreamer's waking life that he needs to cut out or get rid of. It may be that the dreamer needs to sever ties or end a certain relationship. The knife symbol may also indicate sexual tension or confrontation. A knife wound symbolises masculine or animalistic aggression and power.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Paralyzed by indecision.*



IIJokerII said:


> Yup, that's about all I can sum this up to as well. Not to sound sexists but why is it that women seem to be more maniacal than men in regards to this. When men get caught they are pu55y's and mostly tuck tail and pee. But this...... "Stabbing him over and over and over again!!" is really fvkced up. I did nothing to earn this. I am still trying to process this.


Well. not to throw a nawalt out there but nawalt (not all women are like that.) You had the misfortune of shacking up with one but there are many (most) women that don't want to live in a Harlequin romance novel. Although I don't remember any stabbings in those books. A bit of a freaky development there huh?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yea, I've never fantasized about stabbing someone else over and over. That would totally freak me out.

Mine are frequently about finding my way out of a path or building. Any thoughts there G.J.?


----------



## turnera

GusPolinski said:


> Uhhh... make sure that you share that little tidbit w/ family and friends.
> 
> And maybe the Investigative Discovery channel as well. LOL.


And your lawyer!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Psychological Intimidation


----------



## G.J.

Hi B.L. 



Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea, I've never fantasized about stabbing someone else over and over. That would totally freak me out.
> 
> Mine are frequently about finding my way out of a path or building. Any thoughts there G.J.?


Only one I could find was


"Dreams about being lost or searching for something that is lost usually denote anxiety. They evoke feelings of confusion and frustration, or even a sense of feeling you don’t fit in," says O'Connor. "Usually, the meaning has to do with a current situation in your life where you are anxious that you will not find your way -- perhaps a new job where you feel your skills are not optimal, a move to a new city where you are anxious about fitting in and making new friends or perhaps an important task at work with a deadline looming."

At the Edgar Cayce A.R.E. Site there are some but don't really fit your profile


----------



## Blossom Leigh

G.J. said:


> Hi B.L.
> 
> 
> 
> Only one I could find was
> 
> 
> "Dreams about being lost or searching for something that is lost usually denote anxiety. They evoke feelings of confusion and frustration, or even a sense of feeling you don’t fit in," says O'Connor. "Usually, the meaning has to do with a current situation in your life where you are anxious that you will not find your way -- perhaps a new job where you feel your skills are not optimal, a move to a new city where you are anxious about fitting in and making new friends or perhaps an important task at work with a deadline looming."
> 
> At the Edgar Cayce A.R.E. Site there are some but don't really fit your profile


That makes total sense because I was left with skill gaps being an abuse survivor to navigate the relationships around me, so those are the skills that I bet I was seeking. Because the dreams have been there a really long time.

The other kind is taking flight and flying above the landscape, which is probably also wanting to escape that anxiety.

Interesting stuff.

As I have gained the skill, some of my chronic illnesses disappeared. Like chronic bronchitis.. went away as soon as I started standing up to my mother. 

This chronic emotional stress definitely affects our bodies, it's a GREAT thing you kicked her out Joker. Heal well..:smthumbup:


----------



## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> And your lawyer!


 The information is inadmissible, unable to use. I think he would frown upon his, although what choice do I have.


----------



## turnera

He needs to know every bit of instability she shows. Only he will know if you've found enough incidents to take a different path.


----------



## farsidejunky

Hey joker. I have no idea how I missed your thread until now. Just a couple of observations. 

You have come a long way. As a reforming (does it ever become past tense) nice guy, I see you have nipped some things in the bud quite nicely.

However, and this is from a place of concern, you are still way too involved in what is going on with your STBX. I know, I know... So crazy it is funny, right? 

Sorry, brother, but I ain't buying it. And I don't think you are either. Her claws are still in you. 

You need to read and reread the 180 and actually implement it, brother. Make her gone minus kids involvement, which given her history, should be limited too.

Keep reading. Keep improving. Keep getting stronger. You can do this.


----------



## lordmayhem

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea, I've never fantasized about stabbing someone else over and over. That would totally freak me out.
> 
> Mine are frequently about finding my way out of a path or building. Any thoughts there G.J.?


:iagree:

I've dreamed of beating the sh!t out of someone then waking up, but never stabbing or anything murderous. Stabbing someone repeatedly is a crime of pure rage and hatred.


----------



## IIJokerII

farsidejunky said:


> Hey joker. I have no idea how I missed your thread until now. Just a couple of observations.
> 
> You have come a long way. As a reforming (does it ever become past tense) nice guy, I see you have nipped some things in the bud quite nicely.
> 
> However, and this is from a place of concern, you are still way too involved in what is going on with your STBX. I know, I know... So crazy it is funny, right?
> 
> Sorry, brother, but I ain't buying it. And I don't think you are either. Her claws are still in you.
> 
> You need to read and reread the 180 and actually implement it, brother. Make her gone minus kids involvement, which given her history, should be limited too.
> 
> Keep reading. Keep improving. Keep getting stronger. You can do this.


 I won't deny that I still have concerns but as for her actions or love interest or whatever else, I am actually pretty cool about it. The reasons for the continuous spying is to see how mean or destructive she intended to be. This is for my own protection, not to reclaim her love or whatever else. In fact, just a hour or so ago she got some more items and said " Can you help me move some of these things outside" I said, yes, I can" and walked away. 

I feel really pumped about this, house is getting decluttered, slept great last night. And you know something, Divorce adds like 50 Lbs to ones perception.....Just saying!!!


----------



## bfree

IIJokerII said:


> In fact, just a hour or so ago she got some more items and said " Can you help me move some of these things outside" I said, yes, I can" and walked away.


:rofl:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

:lol: That was righteous...


----------



## IIJokerII

Man last night was great, just me and the eldest after I dropped the children off to her at a parking lot. The exchange was fine no issues, she seemed happy and I made sure to seem in good spirits as well. 

My son and I then went to her Fathers house to watch some football and talk about the aid I will need for the morning sendoff's to school on the days that I have them home. Still, I had this inkling that I haven't been able to shake off. What if it was me? Maybe I was just as awful as she made me out to be and I simply couldn't see it? Maybe her actions were justified. I asked her father this. He said he didn't know really as he didn't see enough of us to make any assessment yet saw that she had a home, a husband who made sure to pay for whatever needed it and nearly whatever she wanted. She also had the time and ability to enjoy life without the bounds of constantly working. ANd since she chose more often than not the direction we all took then what is she exactly dissatisfied for?

As I now prep for the next phase, the materials and assets that "We" accumulated over the years, and what I am willing to let go. Now call it egotistical or unfair but with regards to several things, I worked my a55 off for them, caretaking and maintaining while she did nothing or made it worse. "Work overtime we need the money". Ok, so where did it go? Had she put all or maybe even half of her efforts into our family's growth then I'd be content as it would be fair to have split an even 50/50. No offense to women and all but the only 50/50 split she should depend on is her legs since she'll rope in whatever Sap she can for financial aide..............Kinda like me apparently.


----------



## Pluto2

Joker, you KNOW her actions were not justified, so stop that.
From what you've described she seems immature and manipulative-like she's stuck in junior high.

Detach, get to the 50,000 feet view of her. Focus on you and and the kids. 
And few things stung more than paying my deadbeat ex a portion of my 401K, sort of like penance for picking a bad spouse. On the good side, with the stock market up so much in the last two years I've made it all back.


----------



## IIJokerII

And so begins the oddity it is called my life. After the children came home my 11 year old son had a few issues to discuss with me about his stay with his mother. Now to be clear, I do not under any circumstances grill or press for information nor so I share information with him that is not for his ears. However I am always available to talk to him if he feels a need to do so.

Anyway, She took the children to a Gamestop to let them pick out something. My 11 year old has gift cards he has been waiting to use and she owe's him a hundred dollars from chirstmas and birthday money she took and never returned in the guise of holding onto it.

Well, my 11 year old had his sights on certain things of particular interest yet his mother kept referring to something else, a game her EA partner and friends play, and after she began to dissuade him or resist his suggestions or wants she basically pressured him into buying the damn thing against his will, and he can't take it with him when he comes home. She also was pushing for him to use his money that she owes him and his remaining gift cards to purchase the upgraded console to facilitate her affair even further. 

Now, I am angry and irritated as she has actual debt to pay off and repairs to make on certain things she swore she'd get done. but her strong arming him onto doing something he did not want to do really pisses me off. Now this is unfamiliar ground for me here. What should I do to address this, if anything. Do I confront here about her bullying tactics or let it go and have my 11 year old simply endure the train wreck that is his mother?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

IIJokerII said:


> And so begins the oddity it is called my life. After the children came home my 11 year old son had a few issues to discuss with me about his stay with his mother. Now to be clear, I do not under any circumstances grill or press for information nor so I share information with him that is not for his ears. However I am always available to talk to him if he feels a need to do so.
> 
> Anyway, She took the children to a Gamestop to let them pick out something. My 11 year old has gift cards he has been waiting to use and she owe's him a hundred dollars from chirstmas and birthday money she took and never returned in the guise of holding onto it.
> 
> Well, my 11 year old had his sights on certain things of particular interest yet his mother kept referring to something else, a game her EA partner and friends play, and after she began to dissuade him or resist his suggestions or wants she basically pressured him into buying the damn thing against his will, and he can't take it with him when he comes home. She also was pushing for him to use his money that she owes him and his remaining gift cards to purchase the upgraded console to facilitate her affair even further.
> 
> Now, I am angry and irritated as she has actual debt to pay off and repairs to make on certain things she swore she'd get done. but her strong arming him onto doing something he did not want to do really pisses me off. Now this is unfamiliar ground for me here. What should I do to address this, if anything. Do I confront here about her bullying tactics or let it go and have my 11 year old simply endure the train wreck that is his mother?


Empower him to stand up to her... That was his gift money. My H tries to strong arm our son and I have learned to empower our son to stand up appropriately, speaking his mind clearly and with respect and if his Dad does not respond I intervene. 

If it were me I would go to her house with your son ask for the game and go return the item and get him what he wants and explain to her that that was not ok. I would no longer send money or gift cards with him when he goes to her house. Call it for what it is and teach your son to do the same. Right the wrong, stand in the truth, and relish in that strength.


----------



## Squeakr

A slippery slope, as if you intervene, she may see it as you spying and checking up on her through using the children. She may get a lawyer and bring action against you for this. Also she may just take it out on your children and start a "don't tell Dad about this" dialogue for everything that she does. 

I would do as Blossom suggests and try to build up the children's self esteem and empower them that they can and do make good decisions and they need to stick to them unless there is something underlying that is not to their best interest. In this case that would not be a part in this argument.

Maybe you could suggest through your lawyer and get it enacted that the two of you attend a mediation and co-parenting workshop. In my state they are required given that both parents are to co-parent (and can only be waived dependant upon custody distribution and distance, say one is out of state or so far away to not faciliotate such class, and these don't have to be attended together either, each can attend on their own).

I know the pain as it is hard to deal with such injustices being handed down.


----------



## turnera

As this is the beginning of your 'slope,' I would set the processes straight NOW - ask your lawyer to draft something to her telling her to cough it up so your son can return it. And then enroll your son in therapy so he can start to understand what's being done to him. He KNOWS it wasn't right, but he's not old enough or skilled enough to deflect what she's doing.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> As this is the beginning of your 'slope,' I would set the processes straight NOW - ask your lawyer to draft something to her telling her to cough it up so your son can return it. And then enroll your son in therapy so he can start to understand what's being done to him. He KNOWS it wasn't right, but he's not old enough or skilled enough to deflect what she's doing.


:iagree:

yep, and I wouldn't beat around the bush about it...

this type of nonsense requires immediate action


----------



## BWBill

Tell your son that he and his valuables are safe at your house and he can leave them there. If he wants to spend his money on something you will take him out for it.

Don't even mention the mother when you tell him.


----------



## IIJokerII

BWBill said:


> Tell your son that he and his valuables are safe at your house and he can leave them there. If he wants to spend his money on something you will take him out for it.
> 
> Don't even mention the mother when you tell him.


 Nice course of action sir, thanks.


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## Blossom Leigh

I like the simplicity of that as well Joker, she definitely has demonstrated she cannot be trusted and its a great teaching lesson for your son not to trust his valuables to those with ill intentions and place them with those who ARE trustworthy if he can't.

Tunera and I like the guns blazing ideas, but this one works too :smthumbup:


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## the guy

The last thing you want to do is go to your old lady and tell her the kid says this and the kid said that.
It puts your kid in a bad spot when his mom starts giving him sh1t.

Its a lesson to be learned for your kid....so make sure he learns it and how to prevent from getting screwed over by his mom or anyone else for that matter.

And to be perfectly clear the lesson is not how to play his folks against each other, but stop taking sh1t from his mom when it comes to what she wants out of her own kid to benifit the POSBF!


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## Squeakr

Of course you need to broach the situation with your child carefully to insure that you are getting the full story and the truth. I have discovered recently that my kids have learned to tell each parent what they think is desired to be heard. They are real good about slanting the story to work in the way that the parent is looking for. 

You might find that your son decided to actually purchase that particular item with your wife, because she talked so highly of it and he wanted to win her love and impress her with his purchase, when she in fact never "pushed" in to buy one thing over another. He just perceived she would like one thing better than the other and bought that way to "win" over her love. Then when he got home he told you another version as that is what he knew you would prefer to hear. He wasn't trying to make one or the other look like the bad guy but to get the love and bonding he wanted as saw this as an easy way.


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## Blossom Leigh

Agreed, accuracy is definitely important.


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## IIJokerII

Squeakr said:


> Of course you need to broach the situation with your child carefully to insure that you are getting the full story and the truth. I have discovered recently that my kids have learned to tell each parent what they think is desired to be heard. They are real good about slanting the story to work in the way that the parent is looking for.
> 
> You might find that your son decided to actually purchase that particular item with your wife, because she talked so highly of it and he wanted to win her love and impress her with his purchase, when she in fact never "pushed" in to buy one thing over another. He just perceived she would like one thing better than the other and bought that way to "win" over her love. Then when he got home he told you another version as that is what he knew you would prefer to hear. He wasn't trying to make one or the other look like the bad guy but to get the love and bonding he wanted as saw this as an easy way.


 I do agree that sometimes children can and will play the middle ground very well, however how he described it is her to a tee considering the details he provided as well as her little online clique's little game of choice make total sense. What he wanted vs what he got is spot on. This is not siding with him but paying attention to the details as I have noticed from her past behavior and keeping up with his interests. 

On a side note, I used to love playing video games, and now would just assume piss all over them with fierce abandon.

She also had the nerve to send my eldest, her step son, a happy birthday message and also stating that he can come over and stay the night whenever cause they all love him over there, including herself.

Words cannot be used to describe how I am feeling about this since for years I saw her treat him like ****, hurt him emotionally, in come cases physically, isolate and ignore him, break his possessions, berate him, push him to the brink of suicide and then prod him to run away while admonishing her desire to hunt him down and shoot him.

And I know it's coming, I will be the reason for her behavior,m it was my fault, I abandoned him when I went to work, I ignored her cries for help, I suck, yes, **** it, I suck. I said it, I must suck something fierce I mean, I must've done something to deserve all of this **** and really since all my long term relationships really end up with a " ILYBINILWY" bit it simply must be me. 

I am just really having a moment right now to absorb this crap. I am here cleaning up the mess that she made, or I imagined she made, paying for the home I worked for US, left with the ****ing bills she accumulated, The animals we got together, including the cats the children adore the day she got served, losing items I came accustomed to being comfortable with and also having to be the caretaker, disciplinarian, and full time parent while she gets to get off work, drink and smoke it up, has an emotional filler and eventually a physical one while I get to pay the tender of her decade plus 3 years of bull****.

I am sorry, her text to my son just really rubber me the wrong way, and to top it all off as sad as it sounds I am incredibly lonely. For a year I had to digest the empty calories called love during what was a obviously false yet hopeful R. I just wish she had the balls and honesty to tel me " No, no. Don't bother trying, I do not want to continue being married. Don't waste your time and efforts." 

"Oh, wait, I need money, yes I love you. I need you to take care of me since I got injured and mildly broke my ankle, I love you. I want that delicious sand which you made, I love you. All of these things that I said I needed to make me feel fulfilled, well, I love you, so thanks for paying for it. I am telling you the truth, Lets keep going to marriage counseling, here is a reconciliation book, I don't like hurting you....."

It shouldn't be this hard, relationships shouldn't be this hard, life shouldn't be this hard. There is no moral victory here, a physical one yes, but inside I really want to explode, and not in a good way.


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## Blossom Leigh

Sooooooo sorry Joker..


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## Squeakr

IIJokerII said:


> I do agree that sometimes children can and will play the middle ground very well, however how he described it is her to a tee considering the details he provided as well as her little online clique's little game of choice make total sense. What he wanted vs what he got is spot on. This is not siding with him but paying attention to the details as I have noticed from her past behavior and keeping up with his interests.
> 
> On a side note, I used to love playing video games, and now would just assume piss all over them with fierce abandon.
> 
> She also had the nerve to send my eldest, her step son, a happy birthday message and also stating that he can come over and stay the night whenever cause they all love him over there, including herself.
> 
> Words cannot be used to describe how I am feeling about this since for years I saw her treat him like ****, hurt him emotionally, in come cases physically, isolate and ignore him, break his possessions, berate him, push him to the brink of suicide and then prod him to run away while admonishing her desire to hunt him down and shoot him.
> 
> And I know it's coming, I will be the reason for her behavior,m it was my fault, I abandoned him when I went to work, I ignored her cries for help, I suck, yes, **** it, I suck. I said it, I must suck something fierce I mean, I must've done something to deserve all of this **** and really since all my long term relationships really end up with a " ILYBINILWY" bit it simply must be me.
> 
> I am just really having a moment right now to absorb this crap. I am here cleaning up the mess that she made, or I imagined she made, paying for the home I worked for US, left with the ****ing bills she accumulated, The animals we got together, including the cats the children adore the day she got served, losing items I came accustomed to being comfortable with and also having to be the caretaker, disciplinarian, and full time parent while she gets to get off work, drink and smoke it up, has an emotional filler and eventually a physical one while I get to pay the tender of her decade plus 3 years of bull****.
> 
> I am sorry, her text to my son just really rubber me the wrong way, and to top it all off as sad as it sounds I am incredibly lonely. For a year I had to digest the empty calories called love during what was a obviously false yet hopeful R. I just wish she had the balls and honesty to tel me " No, no. Don't bother trying, I do not want to continue being married. Don't waste your time and efforts."
> 
> "Oh, wait, I need money, yes I love you. I need you to take care of me since I got injured and mildly broke my ankle, I love you. I want that delicious sand which you made, I love you. All of these things that I said I needed to make me feel fulfilled, well, I love you, so thanks for paying for it. I am telling you the truth, Lets keep going to marriage counseling, here is a reconciliation book, I don't like hurting you....."
> 
> It shouldn't be this hard, relationships shouldn't be this hard, life shouldn't be this hard. There is no moral victory here, a physical one yes, but inside I really want to explode, and not in a good way.


Sorry you are experiencing this as it can really ruin a persons day and life/ future. As to what I wrote before and your first post about what your son said, I can say that my youngest is 12 and it amazing the details and realism that she provided with her recants to me. It was my STBXW and her actions, demeanors, and words to a tee. However when talking to the STBXW it seems that lost of the same was said about me, and in quite vivid and exacting detail. She believed everything the child said (as did I as I really wanted to believe it), yet we had completely conflicting and situation specific details and accounts given to each of us regarding the issue with completely different end results to match what the child has seen and determined what each of us wanted to hear and valued.

Never underestimate these kids, and if they don't realize it on their own, they get insight from their friends. It is scary how perceptive and tuned in they are even when we think we are being covert about things.


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## Pluto2

So sorry Joker. The pain in paralyzing at times, isn't it. Your heart and your mind are all over the place. So take a little time and stop and breath. Remember the actions that you know occurred. Not anyone's spin on those events. 

Everyone works (well except my ex-lol). Providing for your family is not being neglectful, it is being responsible. Did you work every waking minute, to the point that you missed out on life events? If you did, you know that you had no balance. So you change that now and move on. If you didn't, then put that away because there's nothing there.

You cooked. Fabulous. I love a man in the kitchen. Did you ever have help, from the kids, or her? If not, consider why, If you did, you shared a wonderful gift with family.

Do not fall into the trap of accepting her blame game. Consider critically how you were living and make changes that should be made, but try to draw some inner strength from your own powerful actions. You can get through this.


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## IIJokerII

Pluto2 said:


> So sorry Joker. The pain in paralyzing at times, isn't it. Your heart and your mind are all over the place. So take a little time and stop and breath. Remember the actions that you know occurred. Not anyone's spin on those events.
> 
> It is not so much the spin on things as it is the lack of acknowledgement and disregard to her actions. She tormented my eldest to near suicide. And the years building up to this I was labeled the bad one cause I suggested some positive reinforcement vs throwing him to a counselor just to say "Yes, his mom abandoned him and he feels sad, so provide a healthy happy home for him to adjust to and absorb" Ok, thanks for telling what I already know doc, here the 3 hundred or so dollars I don't have to tell me this. Her texting him that they all love him over there, which I do believe her parents and other family member's do, is a complete joke, a really, really sick one.
> 
> Everyone works (well except my ex-lol). Providing for your family is not being neglectful, it is being responsible. Did you work every waking minute, to the point that you missed out on life events? If you did, you know that you had no balance. So you change that now and move on. If you didn't, then put that away because there's nothing there.
> 
> I did work too much and missed out on many things, which pisses me off to no extent since she was the one who supported and caused me to work so much and the mental mind fvck that came with her comments about hating me going to work all the time to pay for the sh1t she wanted, yet she kept spending needed dollars on crap to get back at me for being at work all the time?????? Insanity.AT one point after exhausting the local churches and food banks for assistance, something she did not participate in save for making a list for me to chase for materials, I fell into a assignment at my job that enabled unlimited hours per week. 10 am to some times 3 am. The summer of 2007 did not exist. What was she doing during this. Still plotting to take my children away during her first EA with her ex.
> 
> You cooked. Fabulous. I love a man in the kitchen. Did you ever have help, from the kids, or her? If not, consider why, If you did, you shared a wonderful gift with family.
> 
> Yes, I cooked, and cleaned, and did laundry, and yard work, home repairs, and shopping, and car repair, and nearly everything else under the sun. Help from her, almost never, help from the children, sometimes. More so since she left. And all I wanted from time to time was a act of affection, telling me she loved me and from time to time a roll in the hay. Did I want to go on dates and stuff, sure. But it was I who had to get the children ready to go to the only place of care they could and after getting them ready, driving them there, coming back, getting ready myself and still having the risk of getting a call to come and pick one up cause their home sick left me in a state of being exhausted before I even got in the shower. No help from her on this.
> 
> Do not fall into the trap of accepting her blame game. Consider critically how you were living and make changes that should be made, but try to draw some inner strength from your own powerful actions. You can get through this.


 I know I am going to get thru it one way or another, since tomorrow waits for no man, and I have to deal with the feelings of today. Couldn't even sleep last night I was so, well, ansy and upset. Yes I know it is weak and that I cannot allow her to influence my feelings. Sometimes though even the strongest succumb to their emotional limits.


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## Blossom Leigh

I am hearing major boundary issues in that post. Glad you are getting better with them.


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## IIJokerII

Well it's been kinda ok and whatnot I suppose. Been cleaning the house like something fierce and my god is it a bear of an effort, but the place is starting to feel like a home and not a climate controlled dump and storage shed.

I have also been on the path of quitting smoking, which is causing me to be a little, well a lot actually, more hyper and energetic than normal. I do not know what I am to do when the house is clean, except for work out, which will be nice to get back on track for that. The children have adjusted and my 11 year old requested to stay home this past Friday than go with her. She made it known her "Heart" was broken, a claim that pissed me off since he was right down the hall for nearly 90 days worth while she was online with her man toys being ignored. NOW she has a need to see him. Sheesh.

I also talked to a particular individual who has seen her behavior first hand and nothing has changed. She sleeps in late, stays up late playing games and makes a mess without cleaning it up. She also hasn't paid any money to her parents any money for anything, including rent. 

She also made the claim that I just tossed all her belongings on the lawn so her clothes need to be rewashed, thankfully this individual did not believe her. 

She also got pissed when I denied her the anility to pick up the children prior to the agreed upon time this past Friday. The reason for her angst was that our Daughter came home from school and wanted something she left behind at her mothers and wanted it. She became upset and emotional and tied it to the fact that she would've had it had her mother still been living with us. She called her mother from the house, to which her Father was watching them as it was a half school day, to express her feelings.

Now I got the call and the tears but refused to allow her to pick them up from the house for many reason I considered valid. One, I simply don't trust her to start a fight with her Father since she is pissed he is helping me out, although he considers it to be an assist to the children. I also did not want to chance the fact that something was left behind and she would claim it was done on purpose and it was still hours prior to the agreed upon drop off time. Too many issues to address as well as being untrustworthy. 

I did also manage to find her new OM and my god I nearly want to call her a pedophile. He maybe 21 supposedly but her looks like he is 16. Of course name calling at this point is mute so maybe some eggsposure is in hand. 

I still haven't received any money for support of any kind. Nothing, and although I know it wasn't mandatory it would still be nice to be compensated for at least some of the money she soaked off of me for the last couple months.

I still have never heard of a woman going off the deep end like this. Has anyone else heard of something like this?


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## Blossom Leigh

yea... in an old but extremely relevant Book about God handing them over to the depravity of their minds


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## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> yea... in an old but extremely relevant Book about God handing them over to the depravity of their minds


 I know I have detailed my feelings on this but seriously, I just don't get it. Unfortunately I did read about a Gentleman going thru the near exact same thing including the method and time frame as well and it is spooky to hear it as if it was me watching my self. I can see why some people here just throw in the towel trying to help.

I appreciate the companionship I have received from here. I do not think I'd have made it this far, or even anywhere, if I went it alone.


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## Blossom Leigh

In a multitude of counselors there is safety Prov 11:14


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## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> In a multitude of counselors there is safety Prov 11:14


I am not religious but I'll take any support I can get right now.


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## Blossom Leigh

And I'm glad you've had it. It's been a long hard road, but now that the blinders are coming all the way off it allows you to see that you made the right decision, can rest in that, focus on healing your heart and child and grow to a healthier state and strength.


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## bfree

Joker, you are not crazy and you are not alone. You may not be religious but you have been on my prayer list for quite a while now.


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## IIJokerII

bfree said:


> Joker, you are not crazy and you are not alone. You may not be religious but you have been on my prayer list for quite a while now.


 Thanks Free. I have been reading about breaking the attachment from a Bipolar-BPD person, especially a woman, and finding it to be among the most difficult tasks a man can endure. I wish I could not state this without coming across as sexist but it hard to do. She looks at me and dolts the tears and expressions and almost like an instinct I want to reengage with her emotionally.

And she does also have the ability to make this all feel like it is my fault. I then have to replay the whole damn thing in my mind to readjust this belief.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Paralyzed by indecision.*



IIJokerII said:


> Thanks Free. I have been reading about breaking the attachment from a Bipolar-BPD person, especially a woman, and finding it to be among the most difficult tasks a man can endure. I wish I could not state this without coming across as sexist but it hard to do. She looks at me and dolts the tears and expressions and almost like an instinct I want to reengage with her emotionally.
> 
> And she does also have the ability to make this all feel like it is my fault. I then have to replay the whole damn thing in my mind to readjust this belief.


This has less tondo with breaking away from a BPD woman and more to do with codependency.

Have you read "Codependent No More"?


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## IIJokerII

farsidejunky said:


> This has less tondo with breaking away from a BPD woman and more to do with codependency.
> 
> Have you read "Codependent No More"?


No.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Paralyzed by indecision.*



IIJokerII said:


> No.


I got it for $3.00 used on Ebay. I bet it would help.


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## bfree

farsidejunky said:


> I got it for $3.00 used on Ebay. I bet it would help.


I'm not codependent, well not more than anyone else that is married, lol. But I did read it just for the knowledge factor. Good book!


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## Blossom Leigh

I think it would help you manage your focus with some additional tools. Also, there is a link in my signature that pulls up my Blossom thread and on that page there is a link to stockholm syndrome that I bet you would find interesting and if you do, then I also recommend the book Betrayal Bonds.


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## IIJokerII

Well it's official now, no not that, yet. The residual and current effects from this has seeped out into my children's lives. I got an email yesterday about our youngest son showing some emotional problems at school as well as isolating himself from time to time, sucking his thumb and rocking back and forth. When asked if he is ok, he replies, as simply "fine"

My 11 year old is displaying mannerisms that he picked up from her and my daughter is starting to realize she is gone and her confusion within the matter about why she is gone. My eldest is ready to go to town against her with CPS-DCF when ready. 

I was pissed off royally when it was me being screwed over but now. Take me on damn it, leave them out of it. Of course it will be my fault since her anger was directed at me and my resistance to her behavior that I am to blame. What other reason could there be, who knew!!


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## Pluto2

Get the kids in some counseling if they're not already. Most schools have a guidance office or school counselor who deals with these issues more often than we would like to think. It's often easier for them to talk to a non-parent about what they are going through.
I am sorry.

I'm not one for vulgarity, but at times like these I remember a line from an old friend of mine in NH. "This s*cks rancid moose c&ck"


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## Blossom Leigh

I know you will do your best to help them navigate this. THIS is exactly why I am not fast to tell anyone to divorce on TAM when they have kids because it affects them very deep. Putting as much consistent constructive safe environment in their lives right now will help them find their center.


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## IIJokerII

Was I wrong then to get her out of the house?


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## Blossom Leigh

Not with an active affair...

She has to feel her consequences.

Unfortunately her kids are part of that package and the ONLY way we can navigate those affects are to help them understand that humans make poor choices and she could have chosen better behaviors but chose not too, therefore she does not get to keep marital benefits when violating the covenant that was made.

Let them know you are there, that you are committed to making the right choices.


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## Pluto2

No you did not do the wrong thing.

Would it be right for the kids to see first hand what she was up to? No. Mine did.

IMO, it is much better for the kids to see you act honorably, and with respect for them, your home and your marriage. The immediate aftermath is gut-wrenching, but this is one of those long-haul situations. Maybe be extra-vigilant not to bad mouth her. Yes, this means you may have to bite your tongue so often that medical assistance is needed, but in the end it will worth it.


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## Blossom Leigh

Great way to word that Pluto...

remember Joker, it wasn't just your reality that was obliterated, it is now also theirs and their bodies, heart, mind, soul will be searching for emotional closure and safety. In the mean time you will see releases of pressure (the rocking back and forth, possible fits of anger, crying, acting out), also acts of self protection (isolation, thumb sucking, one word answers), but over time as they process and realize they are safe with you, these things will subside.

In the mean time allow the releases and self protection until they feel they don't need it.. a professional can help guide you through that navigation because you don't want it to turn into an unnecessary crutch.


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## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> Great way to word that Pluto...
> 
> remember Joker, it wasn't just your reality that was obliterated, it is now also theirs and their bodies, heart, mind, soul will be searching for emotional closure and safety. In the mean time you will see releases of pressure (the rocking back and forth, possible fits of anger, crying, acting out), also acts of self protection (isolation, thumb sucking, one word answers), but over time as they process and realize they are safe with you, these things will subside.
> 
> In the mean time allow the releases and self protection until they feel they don't need it.. a professional can help guide you through that navigation because you don't want it to turn into an unnecessary crutch.


You phrased it well Blossom. Any idea's on how to deal with the STBXW about this. I am sure denial, dismissal and blameshifting are in order. Aside from the smile and nod approach to her retorts of this nature, I am sure the behind the scenes damage will be far worse.


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## Blossom Leigh

I am actually turning into an advocate of strategic separation in lieu of divorce. Worked for us, but I know doesn't apply to all situations.


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## Blossom Leigh

IIJokerII said:


> You phrased it well Blossom. Any idea's on how to deal with the STBXW about this. I am sure denial, dismissal and blameshifting are in order. Aside from the smile and nod approach to her retorts of this nature, I am sure the behind the scenes damage will be far worse.


"Our kids are starting to show the affects of our decisions. We need to agree on how best to support them through their family reality being obliterated. (Share behavioral evidence here) We need to choose to coparent with their best interests front and center. If you are unwilling I WILL be creating the safest most consistent environment in my home, I am asking you to partner with me in doing the same."

If she doesn't... you keep to your side of things... she may change her mind later and if she doesn't and endangers them, get the law involved.


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## carmen ohio

IIJokerII said:


> Well it's official now, no not that, yet. The residual and current effects from this has seeped out into my children's lives. I got an email yesterday about our youngest son showing some emotional problems at school as well as isolating himself from time to time, sucking his thumb and rocking back and forth. When asked if he is ok, he replies, as simply "fine"
> 
> My 11 year old is displaying mannerisms that he picked up from her and my daughter is starting to realize she is gone and her confusion within the matter about why she is gone. My eldest is ready to go to town against her with CPS-DCF when ready.
> 
> I was pissed off royally when it was me being screwed over but now. Take me on damn it, leave them out of it. Of course it will be my fault since her anger was directed at me and my resistance to her behavior that I am to blame. What other reason could there be, who knew!!


Joker,

In addition to all of the things people are suggesting (get your kids into counseling, provide them with a safe environment, don't bad-mouth your WW), don't forget to tell them every day (if not a few times a day) that you love them and follow it up with a hug and a kiss.

Children need verbal and physical demonstrations of their parents' affection, since they are often oblivious to -- even unappreciative of -- the things parents do for them out of love.

So make sure they know how much you love them and that you will always be there for them.


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## IIJokerII

Well folks, I have that trembling feeling. The one you get when your mind is wound up tighter than a drum, moving faster than light and ready to explode. No need to detail as to why, but to quote Popeye, " I've stands al I can stands, and I can't stands no more".

Since this past Wednesday my emotional tolerance, after eroding for the last year or so, has finally gotten to the point of total anger. After dropping the children off to her at her mothers I wanted to talk about how the children's behavior has been questionable regarding their emotional control. With our eldest emulating her, our youngest son starting to come apart in school and our Daughter crying at random times and becoming aggressive in behavior toward me and her siblings. 

She heard what I was telling her yet it was painfully obvious that she was not receiving the urgency of my concerns nor wanting to even fathom the REAL reason why they are acting out. This came to a head at my house the other night when the three became disconnected and angry with each other and myself for trying to mitigate their behavior and actions toward one another. I also had my eldest son, her step son, their wanting to talk about some things, and even the damn dogs were there too, trapped in the corner of my kitchen I stepped outside for a bit to cool off. 

Then it hit me like a damn train. I am here, and I know I have said this before, taking over total control of the marital home, the home we got together for out family's well being. I have all these god damn bills coming at me left and right. I am still cleaning the house and maintaining it alone. Feeding the children proper meals, making their lunches the previous night, getting their clothes washed, giving them showers (Fun fact, they have not had one shower or bath during one of these sleep overs!!! Although their are some nights I let it slip as well) I am working with them doing there homework, reading them stories, teaching them how to play chess even.... Missing meals, cutting back on spending, giving up smoking (God I love to smoke, it tastes like steak and potatoes!!!!) 

And as each steel wheel of the train kept a cutting into me here she is. At her mothers, not doing a damn thing. Staying up with her friends in her online world or the living, or both. In fact she was to go to court to submit her finances for review. She knew this weeks ago, as well as the initial motion back in October. Now I get a message the day off from her asking me to have the lawyer postpone, again, as she was up all night with the 2 children she had for the night, our eldest did not want to stay, and was simply too tired to go to court. 

Now I did not perform this request, however I gave her the contacts and said to have at it. Yeah for her she gets a reprieve, and the lawyers bill for the needed motion to compel. Come to find out her sleepless night wasn't due to the children at all. It was due to her spending FIVE hours playing that damn game with the OM and friends till the wee hours of the night. And this is apparently the norm too. 

I asked for money from her as well during this Wednesday drop off for things she is responsible for or had damaged. No money apparently, although I know she is spending a ton of money on gas cause the van she has sucks, I couldn't even get any support for the cats she got the day she got served, it the little things ya know.

She then began to reiterate the "Misunderstanding" I got from the conversation she had with her Illinois OM, which was rife with that sultry voice, those ambiguous overtones, her gleeful cheer at "fooling" me into thinking she had no feelings for him (News flash, no you didn't) as well as her driving around for all those late hours to talk to him on the phone. Now I know I don't drive around or hide my friends from anyone, why, what was the reasoning for this, I must be out of my mind. 

Sickening during this drop-off was also her recycled and regurgitated script lines. I mean, almost word for word. She also said she was going to move back to the area in March, which is good for her I guess, inconsequential to most people. But the people she is going to live with are the same ones she spent the night at when she was too drunk and high to drive home, a conversation she left on the home voice mail ( Documented). Now, really, I ain't a anti pot advocate since there are really worse things in life out there. But I do not want my children around this sh1t. I sincerely doubt this would come to a complete end if they spent the night over there, maybe put on hold but not stopped.

She also wants an answer about whether me and my eldest are spending the Eve at her mothers house. "It be great for the children to have us all there". Bullsh1t, it'd be good for your image if we were all there since it be a day in the public eye of your mothers, grandmother and other family members who all know what's happening, but maybe not the reason why, or certain details as to why. Sure, we're getting Divorces, but it is because she "Changed" and told all her FB friends about it. I already got the leers from her potential future roommate who once had acted engaging with a smile and compared to the cold shoulder I got last time, and hearing about her mistreatment by me from others already, the irritation has just gotten worse. 

I know, I am weak, I an not detaching, my anger is a sign she is getting to me. Why fight it, it is, and I have no bones saying so. There is nothing more irritating the watching someone play touch and tickle on the internet with random men all the while turning my head to see the destruction and fallout from the "Unhappiness" she so desperately needed to escape from. 

So I feel it is only par for me to make a FB blanket post myself. Am I aiming for anything else but simple exposure, no. But the stress of living with the remainder of the lies and cheating needs to be released.

Ahem;

" As some of you know me and such and such are currently going thru a Divorce. It was initiated by her as she let me know she had changed. This is true. At the beginning of this year she met and started an online affair with a man named OM1. I got in the way enough to slow it down and it died out. But soon after she met another man from Illinois, a 21 year old, named (Still trying to find out but do far no success, but I am close, so close, but am stuck!!!!)

After holding my stance firm on my intolerance for this behavior I warned that if continued, I'd file. Needless to say someone made the choice for me. 

Now I know some, hell, maybe even all who read this will cite me for airing the dirty laundry. But after nearly a year of tolerating this I cannot contain this anymore. The weight of this is simply too much to bear. But I figure that if her and I had told the world about us getting married, then I owe it to myself to tell the world why we are getting Divorced, or at least have it pending. 

So why the disclosure? Simple

If I am going to be damned, let me be damned for what I am.

And what I was, and still am, was a devoted Father and Husband who above all else ensured that my family's survival came above all else, that they were always fed, and housed, and cared for. And that every effort available was made to also ensure that life for them was to be lived, and not endured with stress caused by everyday life. I took it lying down, I won't lie down no more. 

I will make no more public comments, but should anyone have a question, please let me know."

I need this. A penance must be paid, even if it is the exposure of the truth. My children and I deserved better.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yea, you are about where I was when I had the 1st come apart over my mother in 08'... there is more coming... trust me.

If it weren't for my husband in the summer of 08 I would have ended up on her doorstep raging at her. You might be where I was in 09' when I exposed her to the family.

Glad you got the anger out :smthumbup:

Expect it again. I exposed her twice...


----------



## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea, you are about where I was when I had the 1st come apart over my mother in 08'... there is more coming... trust me.
> 
> If it weren't for my husband in the summer of 08 I would have ended up on her doorstep raging at her. You might be where I was in 09' when I exposed her to the family.
> 
> Glad you got the anger out :smthumbup:
> 
> Expect it again. I exposed her twice...


 I haven't posted the write up yet. Is this a good idea..... Am I doing more harm than good? I don't care if it comes across as childish at this point, I simply can't deal with it anymore.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

IIJokerII said:


> I haven't posted the write up yet. Is this a good idea..... Am I doing more harm than good? I don't care if it comes across as childish at this point, I simply can't deal with it anymore.



Ahhh... didn't realize you didn't post it.

When I exposed, it split our family in half. So there will be fall out.

It took five years for the family to realize who was in the right. Now, I'm no longer on the outside, she is.


----------



## Bruticus

joker, I just got on this site and I aint about to read a list of posts that go back to april. but I read the first and I read the big one you just posted. sorry 'bout what you're going through. I don't know how many people feel the way I do, but I desire the truth above all else, and where ever the truth leads, so be it let the chips fall where they may. sadly, we probably all have things that we'll never be absolutely sure if we know the truth about or not.


----------



## Squeakr

As much as I like the idea, since you are going through the big D and it isn't finalized, I wouldn't make it so distinct by adding names and such and not sure if I would post it at all. If she becomes vindictive this could be seen as bad mouthing their mother and could end up affecting outcomes in custody battles. Right now, you have the upperhand and are definitely the better parent, but if it is seen as negative this could tarnish that reputation and judges don't look kindly upon parents bad mouthing the other. Just a word of advice to ponder before making such a post that could negatively affect your battle (which will ultimately end up costing you more in the end).


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yea, I agree with Squeaker, as tempting as it is, protect yourself in this divorce and public drama turns judges nasty.


----------



## bfree

IIJokerII said:


> Was I wrong then to get her out of the house?


I think her behavior would have negatively affected them more if she stayed.


----------



## ConanHub

Joker. Super busy this weekend and can't read or post much.

My heart goes out to you though and I can understand, fully, your need to strike back, to expose the truth and reveal what is really going on.

I will not be a voice of reason for you in this. I am a fvcking destroyer and have lived my life that way. I have never been afraid of fallout or financial ruin. I care about what is right and protecting the innocent.

I have found great satisfaction in destroying my enemies and sending the rats running for the dark corners to escape me.

I am wired for the fight however. I relish going head to head with scum and grinding their faces in the dirt as I smile.

I actually get more energy and strength as the conflict intensifies and my mind gets clearer and more focused.

I always advise taking down your enemies hard, fast and ruthlessly but you have to be up for it.

Many are not wired like me. If you have too many gentle bones in your body, not a bad thing, then diplomacy needs to win over warfare.

From what I have seen in your posts, you are very intelligent but also very sensitive. You are a very good and decent man and a real hero for your children.

You need to take stock of yourself and see what you are capable of.

A brilliant man once said "When a king is about to go to war against another king, he first sits down to consider if he can oppose the other king with the resources that he has."

Consider what you have to fight with and the costs of the war that you have every right to fight. Then decide to start the war or use diplomacy or start the war at a later date.

I have fought my whole life on many landscapes and I am very used to the cost and the pay off.

If I were you, I would lay waste to my WW with brutal, cold and ruthless efficiency. But I am not you.

Measure yourself and choose your own path to victory.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I don't know Conan, I would want to protect my kids financially. It would be a tough call for me.

Although I LOVE the bravado! Exposing the darkness is something I've been doing for a while now starting with my mother in 2009, but I tend to pause and measure the impact on those I love around me. I've made some tough decisions over the past five years, many times standing alone.


----------



## ConanHub

Blossom Leigh said:


> I don't know Conan, I would want to protect my kids financially. It would be a tough call for me.
> 
> Although I LOVE the bravado! Exposing the darkness is something I've been doing for a while now starting with my mother in 2009, but I tend to pause and measure the impact on those I love around me. I've made some tough decisions over the past five years, many times standing alone.


That is why I have told him to measure himself to see what he is capable of before he acts. Just as you sound like you have measured yourself before you acted.

Remember my other post from Joker's thread on TAM vs.?

There are things worth fighting for. Joker has to decide if he has the resources to complete the fight before he starts it however.

There is never shame in wisdom.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ConanHub said:


> That is why I have told him to measure himself to see what he is capable of before he acts. Just as you sound like you have measured yourself before you acted.
> 
> Remember my other post from Joker's thread on TAM vs.?
> 
> There are things worth fighting for. Joker has to decide if he has the resources to complete the fight before he starts it however.
> 
> There is never shame in wisdom.


Totally agree...

When I exposed my mother, I knew I had what it takes to follow it through.

When I threw a life line to my husband I knew I had what it takes to follow it through, though he tested it to the MAX 

Then the second round with him, the anger ultimatim, but I knew I had what it took to see it through...

Now, this January exposure that is looming. I ended up deciding to expose regardless of anyone else stepping up to do it and knew I had what it took to see it through, though I know it would have been rough. But now... my H gets to do that  I know I have what it takes to support him.:smthumbup:


----------



## Pluto2

I clearly don't care about how this impacts WW. Leave out all names to avoid future threats of legal entanglements.

I am concerned about how this will impact the kids when they read it-and they will read it. You are the only responsible parent they have and they will see you go off the deep end of life and that's a scary place for kids who are already struggling.


----------



## convert

IIJokerII said:


> Well folks, I have that trembling feeling. The one you get when your mind is wound up tighter than a drum, moving faster than light and ready to explode. No need to detail as to why, but to quote Popeye, " I've stands al I can stands, and I can't stands no more".
> 
> Since this past Wednesday my emotional tolerance, after eroding for the last year or so, has finally gotten to the point of total anger. After dropping the children off to her at her mothers I wanted to talk about how the children's behavior has been questionable regarding their emotional control. With our eldest emulating her, our youngest son starting to come apart in school and our Daughter crying at random times and becoming aggressive in behavior toward me and her siblings.
> 
> She heard what I was telling her yet it was painfully obvious that she was not receiving the urgency of my concerns nor wanting to even fathom the REAL reason why they are acting out. This came to a head at my house the other night when the three became disconnected and angry with each other and myself for trying to mitigate their behavior and actions toward one another. I also had my eldest son, her step son, their wanting to talk about some things, and even the damn dogs were there too, trapped in the corner of my kitchen I stepped outside for a bit to cool off.
> 
> Then it hit me like a damn train. I am here, and I know I have said this before, taking over total control of the marital home, the home we got together for out family's well being. I have all these god damn bills coming at me left and right. I am still cleaning the house and maintaining it alone. Feeding the children proper meals, making their lunches the previous night, getting their clothes washed, giving them showers (Fun fact, they have not had one shower or bath during one of these sleep overs!!! Although their are some nights I let it slip as well) I am working with them doing there homework, reading them stories, teaching them how to play chess even.... Missing meals, cutting back on spending, giving up smoking (God I love to smoke, it tastes like steak and potatoes!!!!)
> 
> And as each steel wheel of the train kept a cutting into me here she is. At her mothers, not doing a damn thing. Staying up with her friends in her online world or the living, or both. In fact she was to go to court to submit her finances for review. She knew this weeks ago, as well as the initial motion back in October. Now I get a message the day off from her asking me to have the lawyer postpone, again, as she was up all night with the 2 children she had for the night, our eldest did not want to stay, and was simply too tired to go to court.
> 
> Now I did not perform this request, however I gave her the contacts and said to have at it. Yeah for her she gets a reprieve, and the lawyers bill for the needed motion to compel. Come to find out her sleepless night wasn't due to the children at all. It was due to *her spending FIVE hours playing that damn game with the OM and friends till the wee hours of the night*. And this is apparently the norm too.
> 
> I asked for money from her as well during this Wednesday drop off for things she is responsible for or had damaged. No money apparently, although I know she is spending a ton of money on gas cause the van she has sucks, I couldn't even get any support for the cats she got the day she got served, it the little things ya know.
> 
> She then began to reiterate the "Misunderstanding" I got from the conversation she had with her Illinois OM, which was rife with that sultry voice, those ambiguous overtones, her gleeful cheer at "fooling" me into thinking she had no feelings for him (News flash, no you didn't) as well as her driving around for all those late hours to talk to him on the phone. Now I know I don't drive around or hide my friends from anyone, why, what was the reasoning for this, I must be out of my mind.
> 
> Sickening during this drop-off was also her recycled and regurgitated script lines. I mean, almost word for word. She also said she was going to move back to the area in March, which is good for her I guess, inconsequential to most people. But the people she is going to live with are the same ones she spent the night at when she was too drunk and high to drive home, a conversation she left on the home voice mail ( Documented). Now, really, I ain't a anti pot advocate since there are really worse things in life out there. But I do not want my children around this sh1t. I sincerely doubt this would come to a complete end if they spent the night over there, maybe put on hold but not stopped.
> 
> She also wants an answer about whether me and my eldest are spending the Eve at her mothers house. "It be great for the children to have us all there". Bullsh1t, it'd be good for your image if we were all there since it be a day in the public eye of your mothers, grandmother and other family members who all know what's happening, but maybe not the reason why, or certain details as to why. Sure, we're getting Divorces, but it is because she "Changed" and told all her FB friends about it. I already got the leers from her potential future roommate who once had acted engaging with a smile and compared to the cold shoulder I got last time, and hearing about her mistreatment by me from others already, the irritation has just gotten worse.
> 
> I know, I am weak, I an not detaching, my anger is a sign she is getting to me. Why fight it, it is, and I have no bones saying so. There is nothing more irritating the watching someone play touch and tickle on the internet with random men all the while turning my head to see the destruction and fallout from the "Unhappiness" she so desperately needed to escape from.
> 
> So I feel it is only par for me to make a FB blanket post myself. Am I aiming for anything else but simple exposure, no. But the stress of living with the remainder of the lies and cheating needs to be released.
> 
> Ahem;
> 
> " As some of you know me and such and such are currently going thru a Divorce. It was initiated by her as she let me know she had changed. This is true. At the beginning of this year she met and started an online affair with a man named OM1. I got in the way enough to slow it down and it died out. But soon after she met another man from Illinois, a 21 year old, named (Still trying to find out but do far no success, but I am close, so close, but am stuck!!!!)
> 
> After holding my stance firm on my intolerance for this behavior I warned that if continued, I'd file. Needless to say someone made the choice for me.
> 
> Now I know some, hell, maybe even all who read this will cite me for airing the dirty laundry. But after nearly a year of tolerating this I cannot contain this anymore. The weight of this is simply too much to bear. But I figure that if her and I had told the world about us getting married, then I owe it to myself to tell the world why we are getting Divorced, or at least have it pending.
> 
> So why the disclosure? Simple
> 
> If I am going to be damned, let me be damned for what I am.
> 
> And what I was, and still am, was a devoted Father and Husband who above all else ensured that my family's survival came above all else, that they were always fed, and housed, and cared for. And that every effort available was made to also ensure that life for them was to be lived, and not endured with stress caused by everyday life. I took it lying down, I won't lie down no more.
> 
> I will make no more public comments, but should anyone have a question, please let me know."
> 
> I need this. A penance must be paid, even if it is the exposure of the truth. My children and I deserved better.


Joker How old is your STBXW again???????:roll eyes:

she does not sound like an adult at all


----------



## bfree

A long as you can tolerate the fallout I'm always for public exposure.

Matthew 18:15-17

“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and tax collector.


----------



## IIJokerII

ConanHub said:


> That is why I have told him to measure himself to see what he is capable of before he acts. Just as you sound like you have measured yourself before you acted.
> 
> Remember my other post from Joker's thread on TAM vs.?
> 
> There are things worth fighting for. Joker has to decide if he has the resources to complete the fight before he starts it however.
> 
> There is never shame in wisdom.


 To add to these very good posts is the paraphrased quote from the Art of War " If you know what you and your enemy are both capable of then you shall win every battle"

So lets illustrate the resources and conditions, or battle lines. You are right Conan, I am sensitive, but I am also plotting and tact to detail.

I make more than her. 
I have a stable "HQ".
She is limited in her finances. 
She has no evidence against me, though none exists anyway, all notions or false accusations can be defeated.
Her mother and step father, the ones I feared would pony up a lawyer or other assistance, have a non-involvement treaty, so to speak.
The vehicle she is driving is crap.
She can't afford to buy a new one outright, or even a used one. She can't afford to register it due to the tax and registration bill needed to be paid in full.
I HAVE ALL THE ADMISSABLE EVIDENCE.
I have her Fathers support.
I have other family members support via behind the scenes. communications. (Use as last resort).
She has the 2 CPS-DCF claims against her.
Our children have not forgotten about her behavior and treatment.
I have the detailed Financial statements documenting her erratic spending.
I have Financial reinforcements on the way.
SHE signed the Custody and Exclusive home use agreement (To Bypass the CPS interview for family services)
I have the times and dates of her neglect via her game and phone use to the tee (Which in conjunction with the electronic time stamps collected by the servers and phone service establishes a time line).
Her threats of suicide cannot be tied to being in a "Bad" marriage since her Brother died the same way and important document from the past details her feelings of wanting to die.
I already made face time with the local Police.
I have on file as the one calling the therapist back in February.
I have her noted from this year detailing her emotional problems from depression to suicidal thoughts and feelings to hoarding etc.
I have the pictures from the house when it was left in her "Care"
I have the Voice mail she left when she said she was too drunk and high to drive home, followed by vomiting, and as a bonus, she even left the address where she needed to be picked up from so my concern about her living conditions cannot be dismissed citing this detail.



In short, I have her by the balls. It is not about getting her out of the fog, since this marriage must end for both of our sanity. But this individual must be removed and her head screwed on right since all the things she said she was going to do has yet to materialize. She has already demonstrated, three times, the level of attention she is prepared to spend toward the children, and that was when she was living with me. I feel I must ensure she is detached and focusing on herself and her needs going forward, which in turn must benefit the children as well.

I can't lie and say the thought of vengeance or poverty and/or other consequences involved would not merit a lasting effect. 

So I suppose I can just let it flow the best way I can;


My Children and I Were abandoned for men she met on a video game!!!!!!

It's kind of hard trusting the caretaker of my children to someone who can do this.


----------



## IIJokerII

convert said:


> Joker How old is your STBXW again???????:roll eyes:
> 
> she does not sound like an adult at all


She will be 33 in a few weeks.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

sigh....


----------



## SamuraiJack

Dumb question.
Just wondering.
Would that game happen to be World of Warcraft?

That one played a HEAVY influence in my marriages demise.


----------



## old red

"My Children and I Were abandoned for men she met on a video game!!!!!!

It's kind of hard trusting the caretaker of my children to someone who can do this."

if you decide to do this exposure via facebook, then perhaps you should pay close attention to the tone of your message. instead of an angry, accusatory tone, write your message in a sad, concerned and caring tone. you may be able to get all the sordid details out into the light, while coming across as someone who is a little bewildered but also compassionate toward your stxw. you could ask people to gently talk to her about her choices, and to consider the effect that she is having on your children. i don't think people would criticize you if you achieved this type of tone. please try and take care of yourself - your situation is ridiculous, and not your fault.


----------



## IIJokerII

old red said:


> "My Children and I Were abandoned for men she met on a video game!!!!!!
> 
> It's kind of hard trusting the caretaker of my children to someone who can do this."
> 
> if you decide to do this exposure via facebook, then perhaps you should pay close attention to the tone of your message. instead of an angry, accusatory tone, write your message in a sad, concerned and caring tone. you may be able to get all the sordid details out into the light, while coming across as someone who is a little bewildered but also compassionate toward your stxw. you could ask people to gently talk to her about her choices, and to consider the effect that she is having on your children. i don't think people would criticize you if you achieved this type of tone. please try and take care of yourself - your situation is ridiculous, and not your fault.


 The part you quoted will not be included in this post. And I do like your approach to the description of the situation. But I also like Conan's as well. I am also still looking for this OM on FB, and am close. 

Like I said, if she is to be depended on to care take for my children when she has them I must ensure her head is wrapped in their needs, and not her little affair. I'd like to find him so I can bust him to his GF, light the fuse and walk away.

On a happy note last night was drop off night. 2 of the 3 children did not want to go and as I indicated to them, I will neither force them to go nor will I speak for them to her about their requests. They have to do so, and have, and it was a good feeling to see maybe some "Aha" moment from her, if be it a silent one. I also could see the look of contempt, or anxiety, on her step fathers face, like he had a lot to say. I slyly made a phone gesture with my hand to signal him to call me, which I got the nod of acknowledgement. 

Her game of choice by the way is GTA V online.


----------



## Pluto2

Joker,
You're approach with the kids is great. They have to learn navigate their own relationship with Mom, both the good and the bad. It is better for everyone. You aren't put in the middle having to deal with WW, and the kids are more likely to get their needs addressed.

On that point, you say you want WW mind on the kids and not on the A when she has them. Honey, that is a noble goal, but honestly and brutally..... not your concern. Once they move out how the live their life is up to them. The kind of parent she is going to be is up to her. Unless the kids' lives are put in peril, there is not a darn thing you can or should do about it. I know, I know-you only want the the best of the kids. Of course you do. But attempting to control her world will not help your kids. What it will do is continue to have her in your head and stabbing away at your heart.

Ask yourself if there is a situation or scenario under which you would take her back. If the answer is no (god please, it really should be no). Then disengage. Bust the A on FB if vengeance is what you need to move on.


----------



## G.J.

I don't know if you got on with her parents but they I think will have more input on her with how she handles the kids than you so perhaps an honest discussion with them if at all possible on your concerns


----------



## IIJokerII

Pluto2 said:


> Ask yourself if there is a situation or scenario under which you would take her back.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...HAHAHAH..HA..HAHAHAH....UH...UH-UMH.

Uh, no, I do not think I will be leaving the door open for R, unless R means Rejection.

On a good note, I found the bastard. Barely out of high school, no job. And even better, when she bought her new phones, well, wouldn't you know, he bought the same model as well. He mentioned he was quitting smoking, a part of the conversation I captured. 

I also got a heads up that her behavior is even worse now at her mothers, drinking all night, sleeping in all day and leaving a mess all around where she lay.

How could I possibly live with out her!!!!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Wow... I hope things continue to settle, your babies recover and healthier relationships emerge.


----------



## turnera

IIJokerII said:


> I also got a heads up that her behavior is even worse now at her mothers, drinking all night, sleeping in all day and leaving a mess all around where she lay.
> !


Sounds like her mom is reaping what she sowed in raising a selfish spoiled daughter.


----------



## Pluto2

Hey! Welcome back Turnera! Happy holidays.

And Joker, I thought you'd never take her back. (Good man). Some breaks are meant to be permanent. But I still encourage you to work on disengaging. Let her be her folks headache.


----------



## IIJokerII

Dropped the kids off, said nothing, and left.

Yeah for me, hear my Alpha, proud, stoic, with only myself to share my triumph with.


----------



## Nucking Futs

IIJokerII said:


> Dropped the kids off, said nothing, and left.
> 
> Yeah for me, hear my Alpha, proud, stoic, *with only myself to share my triumph with.*


What am I, chopped liver?


----------



## RV9

Your marriage - R. I. P. 


Thank God.


----------



## Acoa

Bah, tap talk. Posted in the entirely wrong thread. Nothing to see here.


----------



## IIJokerII

I never thought I could make it here.....

To this point, the end in sight.........

A story closed.....

But a new one is to be written.

Some things are worth going thru hell for....

There is a light at the end of the tunnel......

When you reclaim what was taken from you, you can feel human again....

What a wonderful night.....

P.S. I made it before page 40 hahahahahahahahahaha


----------



## tom67

IIJokerII said:


> I never thought I could make it here.....
> 
> To this point, the end in sight.........
> 
> A story closed.....
> 
> But a new one is to be written.
> 
> Some things are worth going thru hell for....
> 
> There is a light at the end of the tunnel......
> 
> When you reclaim what was taken from you, you can feel human again....
> 
> What a wonderful night.....
> 
> P.S. I made it before page 40 hahahahahahahahahaha


Here you need a dose of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOpGsHaOBTw

And this whether it's fake or not I don't care
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-kJZGC7_9Q
Buenos Nachos


----------



## weightlifter

Current situation overview?


----------



## IIJokerII

weightlifter said:


> Current situation overview?


 Divorce is in final leg, kids prefer to stay home than go with her, still get no money from her, but have had some financial help from some of her family members, Furnace died in coldest February on record but someone from my new position from work was able to refer me to people who gave me an excellent deal.

I feel much better, more in control, engage in the 180 as much as practical, keep a log of her actions that pertain to me, and have worked more as of late to make more money so I can begin the climb out of this financial hole.

And I also met someone in passing. A very interesting someone. I was challenged by someone in this thread to do something before page 40.... It looks like I succeeded. The MMSLP if used wisely is also a very helpful bit of reading. The fitness tests are not bullsh1t as one would think. 

That is the cursory version.


----------



## sammy3

It's been a long road... glad the light at the end of the tunnel is shinning !

~sammy


----------



## turnera

IIJokerII said:


> Divorce is in final leg, *kids prefer to stay home than go with her*, still get no money from her,


Joker, this is PRICELESS, and no amount of money could ever replace what you ended up with - getting to live with your kids. Treasure it!


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## IIJokerII

Yeah!!!! I am Divorced!!! She didn't even show up.... Again, What a good feeling...... To be free, free, I say again dear lord free. My babies live here, in the house I get to keep, with only a minimal loss in my 401K.......

Ok TAMer's, on three, one-two-three SINGLE!!!!!!!! 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....

Hmmm.. I wonder if I was happier on my wedding day or today?! Tortoise and the Hare folks. It is indeed a true fable!!!!


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## bandit.45

Congrats Joker! It has been a long journey for you.


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## bandit.45

Did you ever post the true story of her affairs on your FB page? 

The brakes are off now, you can do whatever you want. 

I'm sure the scaredy cats here will tell you not to, but i say go for it.


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## IIJokerII

bandit.45 said:


> Did you ever post the true story of her affairs on your FB page?
> 
> The brakes are off now, you can do whatever you want.
> 
> I'm sure the scaredy cats here will tell you not to, but i say go for it.


 HAhahaha, no, I have not nor will I, all who are close know the truth, and in the end it really doesn't matter, I really just don't care anymore.. So much can indeed change in a year huh? God, I reread my thread... I was such a broken a55 jellyfish!!!! I feel sooooo damned good, in control. 

I told her about the finality of the Divorce today, man was she pissed off. A very minute issue of 250 dollars a month from a prior pension plan, unable to be collected until, oh 2046, was her only hold up but alas since she showed up to nearly none of the hearings including the last one her voice fell silent. I asked her to step outside away from the kids....

Then she proceeded to tell me that she was going to California to Fvck her online AP and blah blah blah, she plans on moving there too, he even asked her to marry him! Thanks dude! I owe you one...

Elation has never felt so god damned good!! And nothing she said fazed me either, and I think she knew it too.


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## turnera

IIJokerII said:


> So much can indeed change in a year huh? God, I reread my thread... I was such a broken a55 jellyfish!!!! I feel sooooo damned good, in control.


From your fingertips to every new BH's eyes...so they can see it works to move forward instead of begging the WW to come back.


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## freeride376

If she wont be transparent than she is still having the affair. Absolutely do not forgive her with out full transparency.


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## bandit.45

> Then she proceeded to tell me that she was going to California to Fvck her online AP and blah blah blah, she plans on moving there too, he even asked her to marry him! Thanks dude! I owe you one...


She won't stop with just him. She has a taste for it now. 

California will be the perfect place for her...lots of like-minded people there. She can live her free love, polyamorous lifestyle to the hilt. Good for her!


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## GusPolinski

IIJokerII said:


> HAhahaha, no, I have not nor will I, all who are close know the truth, and in the end it really doesn't matter, I really just don't care anymore.. So much can indeed change in a year huh? God, I reread my thread... I was such a broken a55 jellyfish!!!! I feel sooooo damned good, in control.
> 
> I told her about the finality of the Divorce today, man was she pissed off. A very minute issue of 250 dollars a month from a prior pension plan, unable to be collected until, oh 2046, was her only hold up but alas since she showed up to nearly none of the hearings including the last one her voice fell silent. I asked her to step outside away from the kids....
> 
> Then she proceeded to tell me that she was going to California to Fvck her online AP and blah blah blah, she plans on moving there too, *he even asked her to marry him!* Thanks dude! I owe you one...
> 
> Elation has never felt so god damned good!! And nothing she said fazed me either, and I think she knew it too.


LOL. You should've asked if you could be the one to give her away.


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## IIJokerII

GusPolinski said:


> LOL. You should've asked if you could be the one to give her away.


HAhahaha, I kinda already did!!!! I'll even consider chipping in for the dowry!!!


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## Blossom Leigh

She's leaving the kids behind?


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## honcho

IIJokerII said:


> HAhahaha, I kinda already did!!!! I'll even consider chipping in for the dowry!!!


I would highly encourage you to splurge and get her ticket....one way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> She's leaving the kids behind?


 Yes, she claimed she had nothing for her out where we live, except for her children. It kind of took me though a little aback when she said HE wanted a child with her, not for the reason of an emotional aspect, but that she would abandon her children to make another child with this dude!!! I just don't know....Or care, well, I care for the childrens sake, but not for mine, but an absent loose cannon is never really a bad thing is it not?


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## bandit.45

IIJokerII said:


> Yes, she claimed she had nothing for her out where we live, except for her children. It kind of took me though a little aback when she said HE wanted a child with her, not for the reason of an emotional aspect, but that she would abandon her children to make another child with this dude!!! I just don't know....Or care, well, I care for the childrens sake, but not for mine, but an absent loose cannon is never really a bad thing is it not?


Eh...

Just tell her the sooner she leaves the better. Who gives a frog's fat ass what she does once she gets there?


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## Blossom Leigh

IIJokerII said:


> Yes, she claimed she had nothing for her out where we live, except for her children. It kind of took me though a little aback when she said HE wanted a child with her, not for the reason of an emotional aspect, but that she would abandon her children to make another child with this dude!!! I just don't know....Or care, well, I care for the childrens sake, but not for mine, but an absent loose cannon is never really a bad thing is it not?


Her children SHOULD be the reason she stays close. ugh....


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## bfree

IIJokerII said:


> Yes, she claimed she had nothing for her out where we live, except for her children. It kind of took me though a little aback when she said HE wanted a child with her, not for the reason of an emotional aspect, but that she would abandon her children to make another child with this dude!!! I just don't know....Or care, well, I care for the childrens sake, but not for mine, but an absent loose cannon is never really a bad thing is it not?


Wow... just wow.


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## Affaircare

IIJokerII said:


> Yes, she claimed she had nothing for her out where we live, except for her children. It kind of took me though a little aback when she said HE wanted a child with her, not for the reason of an emotional aspect, but that she would abandon her children to make another child with this dude!!! I just don't know....Or care, well, I care for the childrens sake, but not for mine, but an absent loose cannon is never really a bad thing is it not?


Hey Dude! This lady has already demonstrated she'll ditch any man she's with and any kids she makes once she's bored! 

But then again...you're special, right? What you got is "different." Uh huh. 



Sorry--I got no respect for her AT ALL. Anyone who ditches their kids isn't someone I care to have in my life. So Joker...


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## the guy

IIJokerII said:


> Yeah!!!! I am Divorced!!! She didn't even show up.... Again, What a good feeling...... To be free, free, I say again dear lord free. My babies live here, in the house I get to keep, with only a minimal loss in my 401K.......
> 
> Ok TAMer's, on three, one-two-three SINGLE!!!!!!!!
> 
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....
> 
> Hmmm.. I wonder if I was happier on my wedding day or today?! Tortoise and the Hare folks. It is indeed a true fable!!!!


I made this refrence on another thread.

You are like a boat owner.

The happiest day of a boat owners life is the day they buy the boat and the day they sell it.

I pray some day you find a b1tchen step mom for the kids.:smthumbup:


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## ConanHub

Good for you my sharp witted friend!

It looks like you were successfully dooped into marrying a lizard!

Her behavior is definitely sub-human.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pluto2

IIJokerII said:


> Yes, she claimed she had nothing for her out where we live, except for her children. It kind of took me though a little aback when she said HE wanted a child with her, not for the reason of an emotional aspect, but that she would abandon her children to make another child with this dude!!! I just don't know....Or care, well, I care for the childrens sake, but not for mine, but an absent loose cannon is never really a bad thing is it not?


Wow, same initial line I got. "Nothing here for me" Its cheater speak for I'd rather move closer to my current piece of tail. At the moment she's not being a parent so it doesn't matter much where she is. You'd like to think she will learn.....

And I'd like to think I'll win the lottery, so there's that.


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## turnera

IIJokerII said:


> Yes, she claimed she had nothing for her out where we live, except for her children. It kind of took me though a little aback when she said HE wanted a child with her, not for the reason of an emotional aspect, but that she would abandon her children to make another child with this dude!!! I just don't know....Or care, well, I care for the childrens sake, but not for mine, but an absent loose cannon is never really a bad thing is it not?


DD24 knows a girl her age who's cheated on every guy she's been with. She fully admitted to DD that she's a mean girl, and proud of it. When she hooked her OM, who was buying her diamonds and BMWs, she offered to 'give' her then-husband their two kids, because she wanted 'new' kids with her OM (now her husband - who she's already cheated on twice). She ended up keeping her kids along with the new one, but only because people gave her so much sh*t about it.


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## IIJokerII

turnera said:


> DD24 knows a girl her age who's cheated on every guy she's been with. She fully admitted to DD that she's a mean girl, and proud of it. When she hooked her OM, who was buying her diamonds and BMWs, she offered to 'give' her then-husband their two kids, because she wanted 'new' kids with her OM (now her husband - who she's already cheated on twice). She ended up keeping her kids along with the new one, but only because people gave her so much sh*t about it.


 This is something that does draw concern, so preparations have been made to counter any false images of the " Wrongfully" accused being ousted as a bad parent if push comes to shove. I am counting on the fact that her behavior and parental laziness of yore will still exist. Not to say I want her to intentionally be a bad parent or otherwise ineffective one, but I do not feel like spending the next 11 years locked in a court battle with a loon.


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## IIJokerII

ConanHub said:


> Good for you my sharp witted friend!
> 
> It looks like you were successfully dooped into marrying a lizard!
> 
> Her behavior is definitely sub-human.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Hi Conan, long time no chat lol.

The unfortunate aspect of any relationship is that we simply do not know who they are until we DO know. I may have been duped, but it was my own fault for doing so and allowing it to last as long as it did. 

But here lies an opportunity to learn a very hard lesson, and one session is more than enough for me to be taught.


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## weightlifter

Dowry. Lol. I read it as dairy. Was thinking... Cow.


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