# Changes... embrace them or not?



## astir (Apr 16, 2016)

Hello everyone! Brand new member here. Also, not a fluent speaker, so please be kind regarding any mistakes!
I joined to get some perspective on a subject that's been a source of anxiety for me as of late. The thing is, my life has changed tremendously during the last few years; so many things happened in a relatively short time, that I'm not sure if my current worry is justified or just a reaction to the rapid pace of my life's previous events. 

So, here's some background. I met my husband when I was 19 (I'm 23 now). He was 39. We're also from different (neighboring) countries, so ours was a long-distance relationship. We met in Greece, kept in contact through phone and the internet, which soon turned into a relationship. After about a year into the relationship, I told my family that I wanted them to meet him. When I mentioned his age, they freaked out. Their reaction was horrible but, for some reason, I remained optimistic thinking that they just needed time. At any rate, it hardly got better, they kept refusing to meet him; in fact, it got worse when I told them he's Turkish. Which was really disappointing because they were never prejudiced. I still think that they couldn't accept the age gap and just used his ethnicity as another tool of pressure against our relationship. Anyway, it got worse and worse and eventually I almost lost contact with my family, except with my brother. On the contrary, my relationship with my husband got stronger and we pretty much agreed that I'd move to Turkey once I was done with my studies, which happened the next year. I finished my studies and within 3 months I moved to Turkey, we got married and I got pregnant. It's been two years since then, we have two kids (twins) and soon we'll have our third. 

This period was certainly not easy, but it's surely the best of my life; I've never been this happy. My relationship with my parents is not restored, though. When our babies were born, we offered to pay the expenses so they can fly here and see their grandchildren. They refused once more. This saddened me deeply and that's when I stopped trying. On the other hand, my parents-in-law are super nice to me. They've helped so much, despite living in another city, that I can safely say I couldn't make it without them. My sister-in -law, whom I love dearly, is now my best friend here, since contact with my friends back in Greece can't be frequent and it's rarely in person. Also, now that I have a better command of the language, my social life has improved greatly. 

Now, the problem is that my husband was offered a job. It's a better one, but it's a job in Canada. The wage is much better, working conditions too. Had the only difference been this one, I'd never move. As I said, I enjoy my life here, I am happy and, in a way, I have managed to regain what I've left behind in Greece (friends and family). But the situation in the country is not that rosy. Tumultuousness and unrest is widespread and now that we have kids that's a real concern. That's what makes us consider moving - greater social stability is certainly tempting. If we move though, I lose my new family and friends. That really scares me. Most probably I won't have the chance to see my friends in Greece for years to come. My brother, whom my husband was trying to bring here for work, as well. And then it's my parents too. The truth is, I said I wouldn't enact another reconciliation process, I'd leave it to them. But I'm afraid that being so far away greatly reduces the chance of this happening. Then there are other issues like the weather (I really can't stand too much cold) and the language. I'm afraid that our kids will lose at least one (most probably Greek), but probably both. 

Am I worrying too much? What would you do?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I'd move to Canada.

It's a great country and I think you'd like it.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

astir said:


> Hello everyone! Brand new member here. Also, not a fluent speaker, so please be kind regarding any mistakes!
> I joined to get some perspective on a subject that's been a source of anxiety for me as of late. The thing is, my life has changed tremendously during the last few years; so many things happened in a relatively short time, that I'm not sure if my current worry is justified or just a reaction to the rapid pace of my life's previous events.
> 
> So, here's some background. I met my husband when I was 19 (I'm 23 now). He was 39. We're also from different (neighboring) countries, so ours was a long-distance relationship. We met in Greece, kept in contact through phone and the internet, which soon turned into a relationship. After about a year into the relationship, I told my family that I wanted them to meet him. When I mentioned his age, they freaked out. Their reaction was horrible but, for some reason, I remained optimistic thinking that they just needed time. At any rate, it hardly got better, they kept refusing to meet him; in fact, it got worse when I told them he's Turkish. Which was really disappointing because they were never prejudiced. I still think that they couldn't accept the age gap and just used his ethnicity as another tool of pressure against our relationship. Anyway, it got worse and worse and eventually I almost lost contact with my family, except with my brother. On the contrary, my relationship with my husband got stronger and we pretty much agreed that I'd move to Turkey once I was done with my studies, which happened the next year. I finished my studies and within 3 months I moved to Turkey, we got married and I got pregnant. It's been two years since then, we have two kids (twins) and soon we'll have our third.
> ...


I am Greek but I was born and raised in the US, my mother was an immigrant. The thing many people don't understand is the hatred that still exists between Greeks and Turks. It is fading with younger generations, but I grew up hearing how horrible Turkish people were the prejudice is very deep and strongly ingrained. I really feel for you and can understand how your family must have reacted. Mine would have been the same. My mother was in hysterics when I wanted to go to Istanbul on vacation. She told me I'd be raped or murdered, wanted to know why I'd want to go to such a horrible place. I can't imagine what she would have done if I had fallen in love with and married a Turkish man. Your parents may never come around and it is their loss! I'm so sorry you are going through this.

As for your children losing the language, that doesn't have to be the case. I grew up in a large close knit Greek community and went to Greek school through the church to learn to read and write Greek. That was in addition to my regular school. My mother only spoke Greek to us at home growing up so I grew up speaking both Greek and English. 

It sounds like the move to Canada is a terrific opportunity. In your shoes I would do what is best for my children and move. Maybe your parents will relent and come visit if they don't have to go to Turkey to see you and their grandchilren.


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## pineapple (Apr 9, 2016)

I would jump at the opportunity to move and explore another country. Also, is your husband the only one working right now? If so, you should go if he feels that will be best for you and your children.


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## astir (Apr 16, 2016)

Hey, thanks for the answers so far...



kristin2349 said:


> I am Greek but I was born and raised in the US, my mother was an immigrant. The thing many people don't understand is the hatred that still exists between Greeks and Turks. It is fading with younger generations, but I grew up hearing how horrible Turkish people were the prejudice is very deep and strongly ingrained. I really feel for you and can understand how your family must have reacted. Mine would have been the same. My mother was in hysterics when I wanted to go to Istanbul on vacation. She told me I'd be raped or murdered, wanted to know why I'd want to go to such a horrible place. I can't imagine what she would have done if I had fallen in love with and married a Turkish man. Your parents may never come around and it is their loss! I'm so sorry you are going through this.


Indeed, but what's strange is that my parents were never like that. Never expressed such feelings against Turkish people. On the contrary, they were sympathetic. Also, their initial horrible reaction was in relation to his age, not his ethnicity. I only told them later that he's Turkish. 




kristin2349 said:


> As for your children losing the language, that doesn't have to be the case. I grew up in a large close knit Greek community and went to Greek school through the church to learn to read and write Greek. That was in addition to my regular school. My mother only spoke Greek to us at home growing up so I grew up speaking both Greek and English.


That's good but also a bit different than our situation, as there are two languages here, not just Greek. And since both of us speak English and Turkish but he does not speak Greek, most probably the first two are going to be used in home. Exposing them to three different languages doesn't seem wise or am I wrong?




pineapple said:


> I would jump at the opportunity to move and explore another country. Also, is your husband the only one working right now? If so, you should go if he feels that will be best for you and your children.


Yes, he's the only one working right now. He, like me, isn't clear on what's best, we're trying to figure this out together.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

astir said:


> That's good but also a bit different than our situation, as there are two languages here, not just Greek. And since both of us speak English and Turkish but he does not speak Greek, most probably the first two are going to be used in home. Exposing them to three different languages doesn't seem wise or am I wrong?


You are wrong... children learn languages very easily when they grow up with them around them.

I grew up in a family that spoke many languages. At home we spoke English, Italian and Spanish. We lived in several countries. So there were other languages we had to be able to speak to talk to extended family and to communicate with the locals. 

Why not start teaching your children Greek as well?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I would worry. It's not like they speak English in Canada eh @sapienta? 

Depending on where you are headed, there's Greek communities all over. Just be consistent and everyone will be fine!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> I'd move to Canada.
> 
> Sorry about your family. What a shame. Live for yourself and family. Let them go.
> 
> Canada....it's a great country and I think you'd like it.


I live on the "lower" Canadian border* in the U.S*....Lake Erie south shore. 

Yes, the weather in Canada is colder than in Ohio but not much. The closer you live to the lake the more moderated is the temperature swings. My wife has relatives in Toronto and it is a bustling city. Great for a young couples to move. Jobs are plentiful. Canada is resource rich and people poor....not enough people. The country will welcome you. It is truly a melting pot, many cultures are here.

The future for your children is MUCH more promising in Canada than socialist leaning Greece and the "on the edge" of failing Turkey with its religious turmoil. 

Think of your children's future, not their language skills. You can assure that they speak Greek or Turkish, if you want. They can learn more than one language.

Where in Canada did he get a job offer?


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

OP, life in Canada will be most difficult for you and not your husband. Please make sure he is aware of that and can support you. When you are stuck at home in a new country it is not fun, especially during the long Canadian winters. It takes time to make friends but you seem pretty open so it may not be as big of a problem for you.

Also, when looking at the money, please be aware that 2 Turkish lira go much further in Turkey than 1 Canadian dollar in Canada.

So you are correct to worry about it. I am not saying you and your husband should not take this opportunity, but please make sure he is aware that it will be most difficult for you.

For the kids languages, the more the better. Speak to them in Greek. I am French and have always spoken to my kids in my native language. It is the best gift I have ever given them.


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## astir (Apr 16, 2016)

Thanks a ton for your replies, I really appreciate it. 



EleGirl said:


> You are wrong... children learn languages very easily when they grow up with them around them.
> 
> Why not start teaching your children Greek as well?


I started reading on the topic and, yes, it seems I was under the common misconception that more than two languages would be confusing for the kids. I'm happy that's generally not true. Right now, I do talk to them in Greek (especially when I'm alone with them), my lullabies are also sung in Greek. My husband talks and sings to them in Turkish and when we're all together both of us try to use both languages. English is currently almost absent as there's no practical need for it right now. 



SunCMars said:


> Where in Canada did he get a job offer?


It's in Toronto, which indeed seems lovely. That being said, it'd be a lie to say I'm not scared of the weather :laugh: 



Duguesclin said:


> OP, life in Canada will be most difficult for you and not your husband. Please make sure he is aware of that and can support you. When you are stuck at home in a new country it is not fun, especially during the long Canadian winters. It takes time to make friends but you seem pretty open so it may not be as big of a problem for you.


That's true. Here in Turkey, this was hardly an issue, since I immediately entered, and was surrounded by, his extended family and his social circle. This helped me immensely psychologically and in practical matters regarding the kids and the household in general. That won't be the case in Canada if we decide to move. We'll have more kids and our social life will have to be built from scratch. On the good side, I'm much more experienced now, my husband is quite supportive and his schedule will be far less chaotic - at least that's how they described it. 



Duguesclin said:


> Also, when looking at the money, please be aware that 2 Turkish lira go much further in Turkey than 1 Canadian dollar in Canada.


Also true. Our biggest concern in this regard is the cost required to fly back home (especially when home is two countries) to see family and friends or help family members visit us here.



Duguesclin said:


> So you are correct to worry about it. I am not saying you and your husband should not take this opportunity, but please make sure he is aware that it will be most difficult for you.
> 
> For the kids languages, the more the better. Speak to them in Greek. I am French and have always spoken to my kids in my native language. It is the best gift I have ever given them.


:smile2:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Both Greek and Turkish communities are well established in Toronto. Great air service to Europe and Tim Horton's in large numbers 

Toronto is about the most European city in North America so stop worrying and learn about local delicacies 

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/poutine-recipe.html


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

So let me get this right - you were a 19 year old Greek girl who got hit on by a (almost) 40 year old Turkish man. And you are wondering why your parents were unhappy ?!?!?


And then you gave up your native tongue, religion, country to go and live in Turkey and expect your parents to be happy to come and see children that are being brought up Muslim, Turkish etc when they are well aware (as are many in Europe, the Middle East and Far East) what the Turks did to them. They will look at your children and be reminded of not only your mistake (in their eyes), or his predatory behaviour (in their eyes) but also the history between the two people. I am not saying I agree with their behaviour towards you and your children but I am saying that I understand it and reminding you of it from their perspective.


Is your husband religious ? (to me this is a rhetorical question, because I know that as soon as kids come along, he would become religious). If he is, life will be tougher in Canada - trust me, I know this for sure. It would be easier if your kids were baptised in the Greek Church and given Greek names. Unfair - maybe ? But true!


You need to accept that you are going to face opposition from your people (and not just your family) and from others too. The move to Canada will make things harder for you but possibly better for your children - I am biased on this - while the weather and food maybe great in Turkey, I sure wouldn't want to raise my kids in that part of the world.

Go to Canada, for your kids sake.


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## WhyMe66 (Mar 25, 2016)

astir said:


> I'm afraid that our kids will lose at least one (most probably Greek), but probably both. Am I worrying too much? What would you do?


 Your parents have demonstrated that they do not respect you as an adult. Was there a religious affiliation problem? If so then there is a rift that won’t close for a very long time. They refuse to even look at their grandchildren? They are being petty and cruel; punishing them for an imagined sin committed by you.
I would make the move. The North American Continent is rich in ethnic and cultural diversity; your children will not lose their identity or language skills. You may have to practice with them some but that would benefit you as well so you don’t lose your skills.
Also, set up some sort of social media account. Post the regular doings of your beautiful children so that your family will be able to see them. Once they see their grandchildren their hearts might warm to them. It is worth a try.
Good luck!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

astir said:


> It's in Toronto, which indeed seems lovely. That being said, it'd be a lie to say I'm not scared of the weather :laugh:


Depending on what kind of city you're coming from, Toronto will likely be an adjustment. It's probably the most "American" city in Canada.

On the plus side, the weather is fine in winter. Toronto doesn't get a lot of snow, for starters. It's not Turkey or Greece, but it's not the Arctic, either. You'll get down to the freezing point and below during winter, and yes, you'll be cold, but it's not the stereotypical Canadian winter, either. Where I live, it'll hit minus 30 Celsius routinely during the winter with plenty of snow. Not so in Toronto.

It is also Canada's melting pot, so there will be absolutely no problem finding other Greeks and Turks who speak the language and practice the culture.

Somebody above (forget who) said Toronto is the most European Canadian city - not true. Like I said, it mirrors large American cities more than anything. If you want a European feel in Canada, you want Montreal, or better, Quebec City. You don't have to speak French to live in Montreal, but you certainly do in QC.

It's also not a cheap city to live in, unfortunately. Depending on where your husbands work is located, you may find it better to live in one of the many suburbs and commute to work (which can be a pain and take a couple of hours each way).


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

WhyMe66 said:


> Your parents have demonstrated that they do not respect you as an adult. Was there a religious affiliation problem? If so then there is a rift that won’t close for a very long time. They refuse to even look at their grandchildren? They are being petty and cruel; punishing them for an imagined sin committed by you.
> I would make the move. The North American Continent is rich in ethnic and cultural diversity; your children will not lose their identity or language skills. You may have to practice with them some but that would benefit you as well so you don’t lose your skills.
> Also, set up some sort of social media account. Post the regular doings of your beautiful children so that your family will be able to see them. Once they see their grandchildren their hearts might warm to them. It is worth a try.
> Good luck!



It isn't just religious. The Turks have committed some atrocities throughout Eastern Europe, the Middle East and the Far East. These aren't easily forgotten. Religion does come into it in that some of these atrocities were committed in the name of religion (a bit like the Spanish Inquisition and the Catholics). Even in Europe they are not the favourites of many of the member countries in Europe. Hence there is not only a religious difference but a heavy cultural one. 

OP must already know this and at 19, to go with a 40 year old Turk would have been a pretty conscientious decision to upset a lot of people - in the name of love ?!?!? Everytime the grandchildren are seen - whether on Facebook or elsewhere - the grandparents are going to be reminded of this and will no doubt, have mixed feelings.

All the cultural diversity in North America is not going to help with this I am afraid. The truth is that while it may appear to be a multicultural integrated society, it actually consists of large groups of cultures that hang out together - the Greeks, the Hispanics, the Italians, the Irish, the Poles, the Assyrians, the Armenians, the Greeks, the Turks, the various Arabs (Lebanese, Palestinians, Iraqis, Egyptians, Gulf, North Africa etc etc), the various Indians (Punjabis, Goans, Gujratis, Southerners etc), the Pakistanis, the various East Europeans as well as religious groups like the Jews, Mormons, Amish etc etc etc all of whom have their communities there. The good thing is that they are all overseen by a fair and just government and system, but the divisions still very much exist.

The Turkish government is still very much Islamic and that's that. That's the only option the OP is faced with. And coming from one of the founding members of Christianity (the Greeks) this must be a kick in the gut to her people.


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## WhyMe66 (Mar 25, 2016)

> The Turks have committed some atrocities throughout Eastern Europe, the Middle East and the Far East.


I wasn’t attempting to speak to that point. Was it a lapse in judgment? No doubt whatsoever. I am just advising her on where to go from here. And where to go seems to me, to be a place where there is far fewer judgmental people. Having worked in immigrant/refugee communities I can attest that Muslims and Christians and Hindus and Buddhists can get along nicely. Somalis, Burmese, Mexicans, Vietnamese…


> All the cultural diversity in North America is not going to help with this I am afraid. The truth is that while it may appear to be a multicultural integrated society, it actually consists of large groups of cultures that hang out together…


Yes, to some extent, it does make it easier to live in an area if one is moving in to an area that speaks the same language. My point in bringing that up is that there will be the opportunities to expose her children to their cultural and ethnic histories, etc. You make it sound like the various ethnicities and groups are all sequestered. That is not the case at all.


> The good thing is that they are all overseen by a fair and just government and system, …


:rofl: Oh, you were serious about that?!?! :bsflag: “Overseen???” How?


> Everytime the grandchildren are seen - whether on Facebook or elsewhere - the grandparents are going to be reminded of this and will no doubt, have mixed feelings.


All I can say is that is their loss. I can’t stand my son-in-law but that doesn’t keep me from seeing my grandkids. And I don’t blame them for my daughter’s horrorific case of cerebral flatulence…


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## astir (Apr 16, 2016)

manfromlamancha said:


> So let me get this right - you were a 19 year old Greek girl who got hit on by a (almost) 40 year old Turkish man. And you are wondering why your parents were unhappy ?!?!?


Nope, I don't think you got this right. You assumed I was hit on and also that being unhappy about your kid's decision is the same as being petty in your reaction.



manfromlamancha said:


> And then you gave up your native tongue, religion, country to go and live in Turkey and expect your parents to be happy to come and see children that are being brought up Muslim, Turkish etc when they are well aware (as are many in Europe, the Middle East and Far East) what the Turks did to them. They will look at your children and be reminded of not only your mistake (in their eyes), or his predatory behaviour (in their eyes) but also the history between the two people. I am not saying I agree with their behaviour towards you and your children but I am saying that I understand it and reminding you of it from their perspective.


Again, too many assumptions. At any rate, besides this being an examplary case of faulty reasoning, I'm afraid that it's also irrelevant. As I wrote in my previous posts, my parents' original reaction was related to his age, as I hadn't told them he's Turkish. They had rejected him before they knew he's Turkish. Since they were never nationalistic, anti-Turkish or anti-Muslim, yes, I was expecting more of them in this regard. I still believe that if there weren't any age gap, they'd be fine with him being Turkish or Muslim. My brother seems to think the same. But who knows, maybe they were hiding their prejudices and tribal mentality all that time. 



manfromlamancha said:


> Is your husband religious ? (to me this is a rhetorical question, because I know that as soon as kids come along, he would become religious). If he is, life will be tougher in Canada - trust me, I know this for sure. It would be easier if your kids were baptised in the Greek Church and given Greek names. Unfair - maybe ? But true!


If it is rhetorical then I'm not sure if I'm expected to answer. Even if I am, I'm not sure I can answer this question, since the term "religious" begs to be defined. He's a Muslim and identifies as such, not sure what this makes him. If I understand correctly though, you are in essence asking if he's liberal minded. This, I can answer. He is. Surely more than my parents (who are not religious) and quite probably more than me. He has also not turned illiberal since our kids were born. That being said, our kids have been given both Greek and Turkish names and will have to decide for themselves if they want to follow any religion (the same goes for our future ones).



WhyMe66 said:


> Your parents have demonstrated that they do not respect you as an adult. Was there a religious affiliation problem? If so then there is a rift that won’t close for a very long time. They refuse to even look at their grandchildren? They are being petty and cruel; punishing them for an imagined sin committed by you.
> I would make the move. The North American Continent is rich in ethnic and cultural diversity; your children will not lose their identity or language skills. You may have to practice with them some but that would benefit you as well so you don’t lose your skills.
> Also, set up some sort of social media account. Post the regular doings of your beautiful children so that your family will be able to see them. Once they see their grandchildren their hearts might warm to them. It is worth a try. Good luck!


The relationship with my brother is more than excellent so they are exposed to the kids through him. As I said, I've stopped trying to change their mind (I know my brother hasn't though), but I won't hold it against them if and when they decide to see the kids and maybe restore our relation as well. From what my brother has told me, they seem regretted, even though they have admitted no such thing, that they turned down our invitation to visit us when our kids were born. In about a week, we'll have our third baby. We've let them know, through my brother, that our invitation is open; no positive answer so far, but they haven't turned it down either. We'll see. Thank you for your wish!



alexm said:


> Depending on what kind of city you're coming from, Toronto will likely be an adjustment. It's probably the most "American" city in Canada.
> 
> On the plus side, the weather is fine in winter. Toronto doesn't get a lot of snow, for starters. It's not Turkey or Greece, but it's not the Arctic, either. You'll get down to the freezing point and below during winter, and yes, you'll be cold, but it's not the stereotypical Canadian winter, either. Where I live, it'll hit minus 30 Celsius routinely during the winter with plenty of snow. Not so in Toronto.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. Despite the fact that both cities I've lived in so far are large ones, they don't really resemble European metropolitan areas (at least not those I'm familiar with) and I guess they do not resemble American city life either. They have a pretty laid back atmosphere, for the most part. My husband has lived in different environments than this, I haven't. But, I guess that in cities like Toronto, it really depends in which part you live - usually different parts of the city feel different.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The best way to make the culture / religion work is to completely take culture and religion out of the kids picture. I'm Christian, my wife is some fringe religion and half her family are Muslim incl her late mom. Dad is fringe. We did not speak our languages at home - instead the girls learned more common / useful languages for their fields of study (French, Arabic). They learned two cultures on their own, and fit flawlessly into three cultures. 

The 20 year difference is tough, no matter how you slice it. There's no way I would let my 20 year old marry someone older whether Turkish, European, or Martian.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Are you of Greek origin or not ? If the answer is no, then I cannot comment.

If the answer is yes, then I think that everything I have said stands and you are defending your choice of mate, regardless.

I cannot believe, that even in this modern, educated, liberal world that there are many Greeks who would be happy for their daughter to marry a Turk.

I also cannot believe that ANY parent would want a teenage daughter to go with an almost 40 year old man (of any nationality).

And when you say you were not "hit on" - oh yes you were. Even if you did the pursuing, the appropriate response from a 40 year old man to a teenager is "I am flattered, but … go away little girl".

I realise that love will find a way - between young and old, Christian and Muslim, even Greek and Turk - however, there will be challenges.

I also realise that I am not making you feel better so I will stop posting after this, but I am hoping that you did come here for truthful responses, not just what you want to hear.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

astir said:


> Hello everyone! Brand new member here. Also, not a fluent speaker, so please be kind regarding any mistakes!
> I joined to get some perspective on a subject that's been a source of anxiety for me as of late. The thing is, my life has changed tremendously during the last few years; so many things happened in a relatively short time, that I'm not sure if my current worry is justified or just a reaction to the rapid pace of my life's previous events.
> 
> So, here's some background. *I met my husband when I was 19 (I'm 23 now). He was 39*. We're also from different (neighboring) countries, so *ours was a long-distance relationship. We met in Greece*, kept in contact through phone and the internet, which soon turned into a relationship. After about a year into the relationship, I told my family that I wanted them to meet him. *When I mentioned his age, they freaked out. Their reaction was horrible *but, for some reason, I remained optimistic thinking that they just needed time. At any rate, it hardly got better, they kept refusing to meet him; in fact, *it got worse when I told them he's Turkish.* Which was really disappointing because they were never prejudiced. I still think that they couldn't accept the age gap and just used his ethnicity as another tool of pressure against our relationship. Anyway, it got worse and worse and eventually I almost lost contact with my family, except with my brother. On the contrary, my relationship with my husband got stronger and we pretty much agreed that *I'd move to Turkey once I was done with my studies*, which happened the next year. I finished my studies and within 3 months I moved to Turkey, we got married and I got pregnant. It's been two years since then, we have two kids (twins) and soon we'll have our third.
> ...


*

You say you are happy where you are despite:

- having given up your culture
- lost your parents
- moved to a country "of great unrest and social instability"

I'd say your "happiness" is contrived and you are not being truthful with yourself.

Go to Canada and hope for the best for your kids.*


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## astir (Apr 16, 2016)

Manfromlamancha, culture is not something you can give up instantaneously, nor is it lost simply by moving. If you think it does, then surely we're operating under different conceptions of culture. Under my conception, which includes language, daily routine, beliefs, arts, cuisine etc, nothing has been given up. I still speak Greek, my daily routine is different in the sense that I'm now married with kids (but that would be true regardless of any age or ethnic differences), my political and religious beliefs remain the same, I can still enjoy the artistic stuff I used to enjoy and now I'm able to cook far more Greek dishes than I used to. It might sound strange to you but moving to Canada will be more of a challenge to my cultural background (which of course is not equal to giving up my culture) than moving here ever was. Even a western or north European city would be a greater challenge. 

The fact that my parents have chosen, so far at least, to cut ties, is just that, their choice. I explained to them what's my view, I explained why I think they're wrong and I got no argument in return. They didn't like my choice, even though they never bothered to meet my husband in order to establish that he's who they imagined him to be, but they also didn't respect it. I don't like their reaction either, but I do respect it, it's their choice. It's certainly not the ideal outcome, but nowhere have I betrayed my values or exchanged reason for unreason (prejudice), so I'm fine with it. No regrets. 

Unrest and social instability was present in Greece too, it's not that I moved from paradise to hell. What has changed is that I have kids now and, despite the fact that in many ways the place where we live is one of the best places to live in Turkey, if we're given the opportunity to move to a place that -as a whole- is better in this regard, we are willing to consider it seriously, even if it's going to be a challenge to our cultural backgrounds. As to if I'm really happy or just lying to myself, I think there's not much to be discussed here; it's an irrefutable claim that can always be employed regardless of what I say. Not to mention that a couple of posts in an online forum is not the safest ground for such a challenging psychological diagnosis. What is more debatable is a coherent conception of "happiness". If you believe that it can't be achieved if someone is faced with challenges or that happiness is the result of everything being "perfect" or trouble free, then, once again, our understanding of a crucial concept seem to differ. That's the way in which my happiness is contrived; to be able to say that I'm happy, I have to come up with a coherent notion of happiness. Other than that, the fact that I rarely think if I'm happy is, in itself, and indication of being happy. It took a dilemma like this for me to reflect on my being happy and it's precisely the fact that I like my life a great deal (despite its difficulties and challenges) and I have no regrets about my decisions that makes it a difficult decision to move.


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## WhyMe66 (Mar 25, 2016)

> The relationship with my brother is more than excellent so they are exposed to the kids through him. As I said, I've stopped trying to change their mind (I know my brother hasn't though), but I won't hold it against them if and when they decide to see the kids and maybe restore our relation as well. From what my brother has told me, they seem regretted, even though they have admitted no such thing, that they turned down our invitation to visit us when our kids were born. In about a week, we'll have our third baby. We've let them know, through my brother, that our invitation is open; no positive answer so far, but they haven't turned it down either. We'll see. Thank you for your wish!


Stubborn pride. They are going to have a hard time bending and compromising but that is a good decision, leaving the invitation open for them. It is hard for them to accept a son-in-law who is in the same generation as them.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

astir said:


> Manfromlamancha, culture is not something you can give up instantaneously, nor is it lost simply by moving. If you think it does, then surely we're operating under different conceptions of culture. Under my conception, which includes language, daily routine, beliefs, arts, cuisine etc, nothing has been given up. I still speak Greek, my daily routine is different in the sense that I'm now married with kids (but that would be true regardless of any age or ethnic differences), my political and religious beliefs remain the same, I can still enjoy the artistic stuff I used to enjoy and now I'm able to cook far more Greek dishes than I used to. It might sound strange to you but moving to Canada will be more of a challenge to my cultural background (which of course is not equal to giving up my culture) than moving here ever was. Even a western or north European city would be a greater challenge.
> 
> The fact that my parents have chosen, so far at least, to cut ties, is just that, their choice. I explained to them what's my view, I explained why I think they're wrong and I got no argument in return. They didn't like my choice, even though they never bothered to meet my husband in order to establish that he's who they imagined him to be, but they also didn't respect it. I don't like their reaction either, but I do respect it, it's their choice. It's certainly not the ideal outcome, but nowhere have I betrayed my values or exchanged reason for unreason (prejudice), so I'm fine with it. No regrets.
> 
> Unrest and social instability was present in Greece too, it's not that I moved from paradise to hell. What has changed is that I have kids now and, despite the fact that in many ways the place where we live is one of the best places to live in Turkey, if we're given the opportunity to move to a place that -as a whole- is better in this regard, we are willing to consider it seriously, even if it's going to be a challenge to our cultural backgrounds. As to if I'm really happy or just lying to myself, I think there's not much to be discussed here; it's an irrefutable claim that can always be employed regardless of what I say. Not to mention that a couple of posts in an online forum is not the safest ground for such a challenging psychological diagnosis. What is more debatable is a coherent conception of "happiness". If you believe that it can't be achieved if someone is faced with challenges or that happiness is the result of everything being "perfect" or trouble free, then, once again, our understanding of a crucial concept seem to differ. That's the way in which my happiness is contrived; to be able to say that I'm happy, I have to come up with a coherent notion of happiness. Other than that, the fact that I rarely think if I'm happy is, in itself, and indication of being happy. It took a dilemma like this for me to reflect on my being happy and it's precisely the fact that I like my life a great deal (despite its difficulties and challenges) and I have no regrets about my decisions that makes it a difficult decision to move.


I said I would not comment anymore so I will refrain and wish you the best of luck with your life and marriage.

I will leave you with these thoughts - your life will not be the same as if you had married in a safer country (and you know what I mean). There may be unrest in Greece but women generally feel safe in Greece - not so in Turkey - if you don't believe me I challenge you to walk around in a skirt in Izmir at night. Also Greece (the home of philosophy and the first women scientists) is a country responsible for (along with Rome) the creation of Europe. Turkey was one that was hell bent on destroying it - so slightly different backgrounds. One culture that established a way of life accepted by many as being better (the Byzantines) and one that came out of marauding hordes from Mongolia in waves. So please…. there will come a time when you are older that you realise what you gave up so I am really hoping that your husband is a fine man (yes there are good and bad in every culture) and worth it. And I am not just talking about the cultural part of it but also the age difference.

And I do hope that your parents come into your life as they will benefit from seeing your children … as will your children from seeing their grandparents from Greece.

You do sound like a very capable woman so I am not putting you down for your choices but just explaining that I do understand the problems you face and will continue to face. I cannot stress how close I am to a situation like yours in my background and cultural background. So good luck Astir and stay happy Θα χαρεί or Mutlu (whichever you prefer)


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Where in the world did you remember Hasan Mutlu.... I still wear my Serdar Argic t-shirt on occasion...

https://w2.eff.org/Misc/Publications/E-journals/Eye/940728.eye


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Mutlu as you might know also means happy.

And I wear my Stefan Chakerian t-shirt!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Bhahaha! Excellent


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Toronto is a great City but I wouldn't call it laid back. 

How much will your husband be making? It's very expensive to live in Toronto.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

It may be to your advantage to check out the settlement services in Toronto through agencies such as COSTI

By the way,I live adjacent to Greektown on the Danforth and it's a great area. It's also home to one of Toronto's largest summer festivals... Krinos Taste of The Danforth. About a million and a half visitors over 3 days.

Krinos

You can also familiarize yourself with everything from transit,to other neighborhoods etc. in Toronto on youtube.


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## astir (Apr 16, 2016)

Thanks for the info TBT!

T&T, it's a high paid job, well-above the average income.


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