# Are my WS's post-D-Day views of our marriage an affair fog side-effect?



## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

Hi all. My wife of 9 years and 3 children had an affair starting with a one night stand at the beginning of March, 2014, that later developed online and eventually in person into a full-blown "true unconditional love", "soul mates", "most emotionally intimate ever" sexual affair. The OM is married (reasonably happily enough to fear exposure), lives halfway across the country, and is also working with my wife on a legal case (they are both attorneys). Basically, they both knew their relationship would never be more than it was at the time - frequent, intimate, sexually explicit, mutually supportive messaging with occasional hook-ups for a day or two out of town, coinciding with business.

Our marriage was definitely troubled prior to the affair (and no, that's not just her opinion). I had been depressed for several years, and had been a less-than-stellar partner and stay-at-home dad. Our intimacy levels had tanked, and our sex life, while not infrequent (averaging once a week over the last 3 years), was beset with issues of high desire/low desire, pressure for sex and intimacy from me (something I know now was deeply destructive and moronic on my part), and very little emotional intimacy in the bedroom. However, my WW did a frankly crappy job of communicating her unhappiness/loneliness/frustration with me, mainly because, as she explains now, she was in deep denial herself, and was just going along in cruise control in the marriage, not bothering to analyze her feelings about me or the marriage. When she did talk with me or about me and my issues, she explained her position in term of her heartfelt concern for me and her desire to see me get better and get busy doing something that I find fulfilling that will make me happy. She never expressed any resentment or impatience or weakening of her commitment to the marriage.

Anyways, D-Day for me was May 3rd, 2 months after it started. I just walked into it via her iPad, which I picked up because the battery in mine was dead. I turn it on, enter the password (which I created for her - a recurring theme in this story), and up popped a long chain of messages back and forth on my wife's cloud-based legal practice management webpage. The first message I saw was from my WW: "50 years with you would not be enough for me." Ouch. Scanning back over the messages was an education in betrayal and deceit and manipulation and, from her perspective, intense, unconditional, mutual love, along with intense lust. I don't know how many BS's have had the unfortunate privilege of having their WS' affair written up in graphic detail, almost from the beginning, but I can say for certain that it made D-Day that much more painful. I didn't get a chance to save most of the conversations before my wife came looking for her iPad and i had to confront her. Unfortunately her response to my discovery was stonewalling, protecting the intimacy of her affair, and her claiming (as so many WS's before her) that there were bigger problems than the affair, which happened because her commitment to the marriage was very weak. Ironically, a couple of weeks prior to D-Day, my wife decided we would benefit from marriage counseling, and we were to have our first meeting 4 days after D-Day. She retreated and talked to her best friend, who told her she thought my WS had been unhappy with me for years. She then came back the next day and said that she was done with date nights with me, "all the hostility, demands for intimacy or details about the affair". She said she would need an environment of acceptance and vulnerability. She later wrote that she "actually was
prepared to accept that (she) wouldn't have (my) trust again." Missing was much of any remorse for her betrayal and deceit (yeah, she said she was sorry about the lies, but that's about it) Needless to say, her reaction was about the worst case scenario to me exposing her affair. The hostility of which she speaks was only present after D-Day, although it would continue for weeks as she continued to stonewall and I continued to vent. In retrospect, I wish I had outed the OM to his wife right away. I wasn't sure at first how that would effect her client , and there was an issue of privileged info, but it could have been done. I know, dumb, dumb, dumb. I let myself fear for my marriage and let my wife basically threaten divorce if I exposed the OM or if I insisted on what she called "demands for emotional intimacy" (i.e. demands for transparency about the affair). She claimed that she didn't have "emotional trust" in me, and she feared that if she opened up, that I would manipulate her or intentionally hurt her.

Anyways, we went to a couple of marriage counselor meetings before she called me after her solo meeting and said that we needed a new counselor. Lots of reasons were given, but the one that stuck with me is the counselor told her that in a marriage, you can have trust, or privacy, but not both. That was unacceptable to her, so we had to get a new counselor. 2nd counselor (recommended by a friend of hers) was much more sympathetic with WS, even going so far as to say it was understandable that my WS was stilll in contact with the OM, because "our marriage is a desert", and her affair is "an oasis", and she is rightfully fearful of jumping back into the desert. After a few sessions with her, along with her kicking me out of a session and saying unequivocally that I had a certain personality disorder which I did not have (and which I refuted point by point in an email), I had to stop our sessions with that counselor, and now we are going to start with counselor #3 (actually #3 would have been #1 but she had been out of town at the time).

A few days after D-Day my wife told me that she had "friended" the OM (by which she meant she had given him the "let's just be friends" speech), and he agreed to give us distance while we sorted through our issues. She proposed a 30 day freeze in all contact with the OM and counseling twice a week, then reevaluate where she stood after 30 days. I told her 30 days was hardly enough, and we both agreed to leave the particulars of our counseling effort to the counselor. Her rejection of one counselor nipped that idea in the bud.

I didn't believe my wife's story about now being "just friends" with the OM, and I was repeatedly asking her to tell the truth because I could tell she was lying. She complained that my hostility and pushiness were doing more damage to her commitment to our marriage than the sexual and intimacy issues that precipitated her affair. I told her that her views of our marriage were suddenly, post D-Day, much, much more negative, and that it seemed incongruous with her view of the marriage from even a moth or two earlier. She wrote to the OM early on in the affair that "I have never regretted marrying (my spouse), and I wouldn't imagine ever leaving him. The things (he) gives to me are things that someone that's too much like myself could never give to me." Even 6 days before D-Day, she says that, "(BS) is actually doing better than he has in a long time. He's lost 17 lbs. He's had more self awareness lately than I can ever remember."

However, as her love affair with the OM became more and more intense and passionate, and emotionally intimate, as she fell deeper in love/lust with him, her views of me and our marriage became less and less enthusiastic. Especially sexually, she started to become repulsed by me, and could only have sex with me if she had few drinks, was ovulating, or if the lights were out and she fantasized about him. It wasn't just me she didn't want near her sexually. She wrote to the OM a few weeks before D-Day that she had, "lost interest in one night stands and other men simply because they could no longer compare to you." A few days later she said to the OM that "I think it would make me physically sick to sleep with (a particular guy she liked in the past). It's one thing to think that I'm not interested in a one night stand, but a little disturbing for me to actually be repulsed by the thought of one. You've really changed my life." Clearly, her love/lust for the OM was making physical, sexual, or emotional intimacy with anyone else difficult or impossible. Strangely, she claimed that she took pains to ensure that her feelings for the OM were not a product of or intensified by her issued with me and our marriage. She just completely didn't think about the other way around.

Further proof of deep affair fog: When I asked her how she thought she could get away with the affair, she said that she believed she wouldn't be caught. This is a convenient self-deception that allowed her to rationalize that if she was never caught, then I would never know, and if I never knew, then I wouldn't be hurt by her affair. But then I DID find out and was very, very hurt, so suddenly her rationalization fell apart. I also asked her how she could have thought that marriage counseling could have been productive while she was carrying on a secret love affair at the same time. She seemed not to be bothered by this contradiction, and claimed that she thought it would help us communicate better help establish better boundaries. The fact that sexual intimacy with anyone but the OM had become repulsive to her didn't seem to concern her.

I told her that her sudden pessimistic turn about our marriage was likely cognitive dissonance resolution in action. As is usually the case when you point something like that out, she doubled down on the self-deception.

About 2 weeks after D-Day I found that she had changed the password to her old and currently unused personal email account, an account that predated us as a couple, with a password that she had given me, and explained where the password came from. Instant red flag. Later I went to her office (I have a key) and looked on her desktop. I found some possible passwords written down. I got it right on the first try. Lo and behold the affair had never taken a break, and the OM had never laid off of her. My WS apologized to the OM, saying it was sad that I had invaded their privacy. She mentions the proposed hiatus, and expresses that it would be very difficult to make it through the 30 days. 2 days after she had told me that she and the OM were now just friends, they exchanged the most damaging email messages of the entire affair. The OM suggests telling me that he and his wife had an open marriage, so exposure wouldn't bother him. My WS agrees with the idea, admitting it's manipulative, but that she "isn't afraid to call a spade a spade". Then he tells her "Like you, I am ordinarily an honest person, and I place a very high premium on honesty in my relations with others; but, in the case of you and me, there are few deceptive acts I would not engage in to keep us together. And, you know, I feel no guilt or shame about this.
None." My WS replied, "Yup, I'm in agreement." It's pretty hard to weasel out of that declaration of deceitful intent, and even harder to figure out a way to get over this and ever be able to trust her again.

Needless to say, me finding out about her continued affair and her continued deceit about it kept me pretty hostile with her, but I also knew that I couldn't confront her, as she would immediately react with feeling violated and spied upon. So for a couple of weeks the stalemate continued. I monitored her e-mails and saw her and the OM plan a rendezvous on Jun 1st. When it became clear that she was intent on seeing him in spite of everything I knew and suspected, I just decided I'd had it with her and with the secrecy and I confronted her with my knowledge of her e-mails. As predicted, she acted as the violated party and got angry and immediately said she wanted a trial separation, which was fine with me.

All through this last 6 weeks, my WS has continued to see her affair as a sign that she was already checked out of the marriage (even though she decided at the time to have a one night stand in order to "tide her over" while she waited for me to get better). I think her affair was honestly unplanned, took her by surprise, and she lost control of herself and got carried away with the affair's intense emotional intimacy. She now says she has finally ended her affair, but says that she did it because it was necessary prior to separation, not for me or for our marriage or for the sake of counseling. I sort of believe her - mainly because I can monitor everything she does electronically. She is in occasional contact with him - they still are working on a case, though she has pushed it back for 5-6 months. They stopped texting and emailing outside of work-related stuff.

I think I'm safe in assuming that in spite of the affair ending, my wife is still in the affair fog, right? Perhaps it will never end, in which case divorce is inevitable. She is trying a trial separation within our house, moving into a guest bedroom. She still says she feels emotional stress when she's around me, and that she is happier with me not around. She still says that my hostility needs to stop, but I think she feels hostility from me even when I'm not feeling it or saying anything provocative. Is this emotional stress or tension she feels around me her anger and hostility towards me for forcing the affair to end (obliquely, anyways), or is it her guilt or shame at her affair (mostly unexpressed as of now) pressing on her subconscious. She claims that she is unable to be empathetic with me because she feels totally threatened by me - she claims she thinks I want to hurt her (which I do not). Do you think I'll be waiting around forever for her to face up to what she has done, or is this more or less a permanent change? I can't believe my previously honest and moral wife has transformed into a sociopath, but her words and actions speak for themselves. 

While I don't have any illusions about our marriage prospects, I do wonder - if the hostility she perceives decreases and counseling (which we are going to continue) gives her a feeling of safety in which to express herself, is there any chance she will confront what she has done? She says right now she wants counseling in order for us to live together more peacefully for our kids' sake (I agree), and maybe later we could try honest to goodness couple's counseling. Do you think that "later" will ever come? Or should I just file for divorce right now? For the sake of my kids, I think of divorce as a last resort. My WS and I haven't been able to do counseling with any consistency. If that has any chance of working, then I'd prefer to wait it out and see what happens. 

One thing is for sure: if the affair continues at any point, or if she gives up and files for divorce herself, I certainly have a whole hell of a lot of incriminating evidence to expose her affair with, including to the OM's BS, and I won't hesitate at that point to use it.

Any comments would be appreciated.


Mad SAHD


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

you really should out (Expose) the OM to his BS regardless of the case they are working on.

*you can do this exposure in a way that it came from someone else.*

wouldn't you want to know

I am pro R but in this case I would file for D you can always stop it later. even if you want R most people here will tell you to file for D, this helps break them out of the fog.

How many ONS did she have?


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

What do you want?
Even if you want to D or R exposure is the first step

She shows little to no remorse, she is much worse then my WW

I really don't know if your wife is worth R


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Get a job.

Seriously. No woman likes to support a husband. Even if she was the one who asked you to stay home with the kids, you should have never done so. 

Women are hardwired through 10,000 years of social indoctrination to be supported and taken care of by the male of the species. I would venture to guess your marital problems started around the time you decided to be a SAHD and most likely your depression too. You are depressed because you are not doing what a man should be doing.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Mad SAHD said:


> One thing is for sure: if the affair continues at any point, or if she gives up and files for divorce herself, I certainly have a whole hell of a lot of incriminating evidence to expose her affair with, including to the OM's BS, and I won't hesitate at that point to use it.
> 
> Any comments would be appreciated.
> 
> ...


Another thing is also for sure: You are overlooking that she has had multiple affairs in the past:



> She wrote to the OM a few weeks before D-Day that she had, "lost interest in one night stands
> 
> Which she had before OM became such a good companion. So she had ONS's even while seeing OM.
> 
> ...


You need to read about some threats on CWI to get a better picture of who your wife is.

You are being played for a very long time.


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## lewmin (Nov 5, 2012)

I have not been posting that much recently (I joined in 2012), but this story struck me like a chord...because of so many similarities that I went through. Listen to me....if you have any chance of saving your marriage, you must expose it with proof to the OMW, and you do not give your wife a head's up to your plan and you also make sure that the OMW is in possession of this proof.

I found out the same way...wife left her computer on...she was in an affair with co-worker. Before joining TAM, I did not know what to do, and wife was in a deep deep fog, believing all the bull that was handed to her by other man - "soulmates", "running off together forever", etc.

My wife and OM also prefabricated a similar story that it wouldn't be worthwhile fior me to expose because the other wife already knows that husband "plays around" and is okay with it.

Also, marriage counseling to me is a complete waste of time while your wife is probably still seeing him secretly and pining for him. I went and it was a waste of time, because my wife was "just going through the motions".

When did it all change? When I got the information into the OW's hands and told her to contact me that she recevied it. She did, went into shock, and the OM dropped my wife on the dime.

That is the true starting point to determine if you can save your marriage and/or divorce. While your wife is in a deep dopamine-effected affair fog, you will not have any chance to get the proper counseling you need.

Also there should be no contact...your wife can not work in the same company....in my case, the OM left immediately.

We are in R, and if the other man is stupid enough to ever aproach my wife, I will then expose to his teenage kids.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

I'm with Bandit on this. I'm thinking about selling T shirts to SAHDs with, "I'm a SAHD. My wife cheats and is looking to replace me with a man she can respect" printed on them. Dawg, you can write TAM, expose the affair, and out the boyfriend until the cows come home but this girl is done with you. I know its a kick in the azz losing your old lady to a silver back gorilla and even worse having to actually get job but gather up gear and be prepared for a life change. Face it my man, which do you think woman would rather be marriage to; the chief engineer over a construction company or a guy taking care of kids at a day care center.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

See_Listen_Love said:


> Another thing is also for sure: You are overlooking that she has had multiple affairs in the past:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Unless she viewed their times together as ONSs? The OP did say that they had very few times together except one offs here and there when they needed to meet out of town for work. She could then be viewing each of their actions and feeling that they were nothing more than a ONS (we here have a different definition of what a ONS is but that could be her definition an the way that I originally read it, noir that she was also cheating elsewhere than just this OM)?


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Could be of course, but I take she uses the term ONS not for this deep emotional, fantastic sex relation she has with OM.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

It seems as if she could be a serial cheat.


STD tests and if you have kids DNA tests.

And file for divorce ASAP.

And out him to his wife and put them on Cheaterville.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Mad SAHD said:


> Do you think that "later" will ever come? Or should I just file for divorce right now?


The latter. 

First I'm sorry you're here. You'll need to have a thick skin to take advice on this forum, because I can pretty much assure you that it will be of one theme and some of it may offend you. But keep in mind we're trying to help you. Often, BS's need 2 x 4's to the head to face reality.

Here goes:

You're being her doormat. She has lost all respect for you for your beta male reaction to her cheating; and being a SAHD doesn't help. The only small chance to save your marriage, is to be willing to end it.

1 - You expose this A to his wife - yesterday. You expose the A to your family and her family.

2 - You need to stop going to counseling with her. If she completely turns around later, fine. But not now, when she shows no remorse and is still pining for her OM. You shouldn't believe for a second that this has ended.

3 - File for divorce now and implement "the 180" to detach from her. Google it (or someone may provide a link here) and follow it to the letter. Keep her out of your bedroom and treat her like a room mate that you hardly know.

4 - Separate your finances and formulate an exit strategy.

5 - Then, have "one" sit down discussion with her. Tell her you regret your initial reactions to her cheating and that you'll no longer go to counseling. That you'll no longer accept her lack of remorse, lack of transparency, and continuing contact with the OM. Let her know that you're filing for divorce. Then continue on with the 180 and stop talking to her unless necessary for your children.

6 - Expect to divorce her. If she doesn't turn around, you will carry it through to the end.

What does turn around mean?

She immediately stops all contact with OM, including contact for work. She will send him a no contact letter that you read and approve. After that, she will never talk to him, communicate with him or see him again.

She becomes completely transparent with all her communication devices and allows you to verify the no contact.

She demonstrates with every action and every word that she is remorseful for what she has done. There will be no GNO's, and no communication with male "friends". She will account for her time away from you and will willingly discuss the A with you any time. If you want more details, she will give them to you and be completely truthful. She will come clean about any other cheating. She will not blame shift and she will need to own what she did. 

Should she fail to do *any* of the above, you will carry through with the D. If she "appears" to be coming around, don't stop the process until you are absolutely sure. We can help you with that part. 

Honestly, it may be too late to save your marriage, but this is your best chance. She has got to understand what it feels like to loose her husband for cheating on him. Make no mistake - this is *HER* fault, not yours. She is 100% responsible. 

If by some chance she does what she needs to do; *THEN* you can start counseling again and *THEN* you can work on the marriage.

Keep posting.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Get a job.
> 
> Seriously. No woman likes to support a husband. Even if she was the one who asked you to stay home with the kids, you should have never done so.
> 
> Women are hardwired through 10,000 years of social indoctrination to be supported and taken care of by the male of the species. I would venture to guess your marital problems started around the time you decided to be a SAHD and most likely your depression too. You are depressed because you are not doing what a man should be doing.


Ironically, for almost every year of our marriage I have chipped in more to our combined income than she has. I have family assets that I've drawn from over the years. So I guess I'm not your average stay at home dad, in that sense  

One of the things she liked about me when we got married was that I was willing to be a stay at home dad. I have to admit I've been ambivalent about it over the years, though it is becoming more appealing as the kids have gotten older.

My depression didn't really start until the 4th or 5th year of our marriage. Unfortunately, I did nothing about it for a couple of years (and my WW didn't suggest anything either). She was the one to finally suggest I do something about 2 years ago.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

But there is still a ideal of I earn money, so don't tell me what I can or can't do. I get the same thing from my WW as justification for doing what she wants.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

If no one has mention this you need to expose to other Male wife (OMW) --- this at a minimum; do this even if you R or D

more exposure is up to you:
all Her family
all you family
all her friends
all your friends
your kids (depending on age) 
her work


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Mad,

Yes, being a SAHD is often one of the catalysts for a wife's cheating. It's a loss of respect thing, even if they won't admit it. We've seen this be the case time after time on this forum.

But that discussion is premature. Her cheating has nuked your marriage and you have to deal with that *FIRST.* She has to do the heavy lifting to save it or it doesn't matter if you're a SAHD or a corporate exec. 

If you make it to R, or in your next relationship; you can sort that out then.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

badmemory said:


> The latter.
> 
> First I'm sorry you're here. You'll need to have a thick skin to take advice on this forum, because I can pretty much assure you that it will be of one theme and some of it may offend you. But keep in mind we're trying to help you. Often, BS's need 2 x 4's to the head to face reality.
> 
> ...


1) That's the big question for me right now. Biggest reason to do it is to kill the OM's freedom to contact her, plus I would want to know if I were her. I know this is not his first affair, though it is his most serious by far.

2) The only counseling were going to (or plan to go to) is really separation counseling - as in how to treat each other civilly and protect our children from our conflicts, plus how to arrange splitting of child care, etc. At this moment, couples counseling with the goal of R is not on the agenda.

3) She's already moved out of the bedroom as much as possible. We're trying to arrange it so she rarely if ever has to enter "our" bedroom. We'd like it if she didn't have to get a separate place (for the kids' sake), but that's still TBD.

4) She's already written notes to herself that she wants to get her own checking account. She has no savings on her own outside of home equity, whereas I have a lot. My assets are protected (not community property).

Remember that I can monitor pretty much all her electronic communications (e-mail (3 accounts), text msg, cell phone, home phone, work computer, etc.). I would know if she were contacting him. For the last week, , only one e-mail, which was work related.

My WW, for all her new-found sociopathic tendencies, is actually pretty guileless and naive. She doesn't like that I can spy on her, but she really does an awful job of hiding her secrets from me (partially because prior to the affair she really had no secrets from me - I set up her office computers and set up her passwords and her password managers, etc). She has admitted that she knows that no matter what she does, she believes that I'll still be able to spy on her. That's what you get for marrying a hacker and security expert.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Mad SAHD said:


> My depression didn't really start until the 4th or 5th year of our marriage. Unfortunately, I did nothing about it for a couple of years...


Going out on a limb here, but is it possible your depression started BECAUSE you were stuck at home as Mr. Mom, rather than being a productive wage earner?

Don't get me wrong, I was a SAHM for twenty years and I know being home with kids is one of the most important jobs there is. But I remember being in play groups with my kids and other moms, and there was always one or two SAHDs kind of hanging out on the periphery, not quite fitting in with the chatty mom groups. I don't mean to stereotype, but that can't be the most comfortable feeling in the world for a man.

I second Bandit's advice... get a job. Don't rely on your "family's assets" (trust fund?) to chip in to the family coffers. That is still spending someone else's money rather than your own; and that also can't be a good feeling for a man.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

Get a Job no matter what she says she does not see you in a husband lover role. 

You need to shake her out of the Affair Fog. (I know a great many on this site do not like the term)

You have to expose the PA to her family and yours, you need to expose that POS OM as well. He is married right?

Tell your wife you want an STD test done and right now. She will tell you it was protected sex and it was one time. Tell her that you know she is capable of lying and you have no basis to believe her.

Let her know that there is no privacy, passwords, to everything or there is the door. You have to be firm on this.

She needs to know that you are willing to end the marriage on the spot and are not willing to put up wither her BS any longer.

If you do continue in MC, the only thing that can be talked about right now is the PA and not your short comings, that will be later.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Mad SAHD said:


> 1) I know this is not his first affair, though it is his most serious by far.


You state that so matter of factly; as if her prior affairs were "less" serious? As if they didn't matter as much?

They do matter. That puts her in the category of a serial cheater. Serial cheaters rarely refrain from cheating again. Their own history is a predictor. That makes a small chance to R turn into a miniscule chance. I'm sorry but that's the way I see it.

I don't see much anger in your written words. You need to find that anger and use it constructively to increase your resolve. Not to lash out at her, but to start the D process and to implement the 180.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

convert said:


> you really should out (Expose) the OM to his BS regardless of the case they are working on.
> 
> *you can do this exposure in a way that it came from someone else.*
> 
> ...


According to her she had 2 ONS's, back to back on 2 nights. The first ONS was with a guy she never talked to again. The second one was with the guy who wouold become the AP/OM. She says she went looking for a ONS because she felt she needed reaffirmation of herself as a woman, and to experience sexual and emotional intimacy without the pressure and sadness she associated with me. She said that the emotional intimacy that first night was far better than she had expected, even though they didn't have intercourse. She laid down some ground rules before each night - 1) They would spend the entire night in the same bed, naked 2) there would be no pressure for sex or orgasms 3) they would both stay present the entire time, and 4) the next morning they would walk away with no regrets and no further contact. Apparently she got exactly that the first night. The second night she said was actually less intimate, but sexually more exciting. He broke her ground rule by asking if he could contact her later, and she broke her ground rule by agreeing. Thus they started their journey towards a full blown affair, although not for a couple of weeks.

I believe in total, after that first night, they managed to spend 5 nights total with each other. It would have been 7 if not for the OM getting sick at the last minute. Most of the affair was online, with lots and lots of teasing and foreplay leading up to their trysts. 

So, if we include the second ONS as part of the overall affair, then she had one ONS prior to the affair. She did mention that she had been tempted about 9 months prior, but it hadn't worked out. I actually tend to believe that's the extent of it. She really doesn't have much of any opportunities for ONS's or affairs. If she had a strictly online EA, it would have surprised me.

How exactly can I "do this exposure in a way that it came from someone else."?


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

badmemory said:


> You state that so matter of factly; as if her prior affairs were "less" serious? As if they didn't matter as much?
> 
> They do matter. That puts her in the category of a serial cheater. Serial cheaters rarely refrain from cheating again. Their own history is a predictor. That makes a small chance to R turn into a miniscule chance. I'm sorry but that's the way I see it.
> 
> I don't see much anger in your written words. You need to find that anger and use it constructively to increase your resolve. Not to lash out at her, but to start the D process and to implement the 180.


Her? I was talking about the OM. He mentioned a prior affair in one of his messages to my WW.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Mad SAHD said:


> How exactly can I "do this exposure in a way that it came from someone else."?


Just my opinion, but there's no need to hide that. Contact his wife and tell him. Do the same with your family and her family. Tell his wife that you have evidence and will provide it to her if that's what she wants.

But since you've waited this long, be prepared for him to have given her a set up story. Probably that you're a crazy, paranoid husband and not to believe you if you contact her. That they're just friends and work associates.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Mad SAHD said:


> According to her she had 2 ONS's, back to back on 2 nights. The first ONS was with a guy she never talked to again. The second one was with the guy who wouold become the AP/OM. She says she went looking for a ONS because she felt she needed reaffirmation of herself as a woman, and to experience sexual and emotional intimacy without the pressure and sadness she associated with me. She said that the emotional intimacy that first night was far better than she had expected, even though they didn't have intercourse. She laid down some ground rules before each night - 1) They would spend the entire night in the same bed, naked 2) there would be no pressure for sex or orgasms 3) they would both stay present the entire time, and 4) the next morning they would walk away with no regrets and no further contact. Apparently she got exactly that the first night. The second night she said was actually less intimate, but sexually more exciting. He broke her ground rule by asking if he could contact her later, and she broke her ground rule by agreeing. Thus they started their journey towards a full blown affair, although not for a couple of weeks.
> 
> I believe in total, after that first night, they managed to spend 5 nights total with each other. It would have been 7 if not for the OM getting sick at the last minute. Most of the affair was online, with lots and lots of teasing and foreplay leading up to their trysts.
> 
> ...


You have a friend or a friend of a friend delivery the info to OMW

or you set up a fake email and send the info from some other IP address stating that you are a co worker or something and that you (the fake person) is sending the info to the real you as if the both of you are being notified

*bad memory is probably right no real reason to hide it now.*
unless you still want to R and this would cause her to go straight to D but they all say that
you should probably file d first


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

First if you believe what she has told you I have a bridge to sell to you that will make you a great profit in the future. She is in a FOG and will lie. (Lay naked next to a naked woman the first time you see each other and nothing happens all night) Yes that sounds like it is true.

Second as Bad Memory, Bandit and others have stated you need to shelf the "Nice Guy" Persona. This quit worrying about her feelings she sure as heck did not worry about yours.

Third, so what if they know if you revealed it to everyone, you do not want her rewriting history which a lot of WS do to make the BS look like they deserved to cheat on them. 

Tell the OMW she deserves to know.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Mad SAHD said:


> Her? I was talking about the OM. He mentioned a prior affair in one of his messages to my WW.


OK, my mistake. But you admit she's a serial cheater in another post. And what about the ones she hasn't told you about. You shouldn't trust a word she says. Cheater's lie. Cheater's throw out trickle truth.

And I still believe you've got to find your anger.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

If my wife cheats again I am probably going to rent a couple of bill boards on her way to and from work for exposure.
yes I know very vindictive and bitter that is OK with me


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

1)The SAHD thing is diverting the issue at hand. 

2) Do you plan to expose them ? Do you plan to tel his wife ?


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

One other thing Mad, a couple of things that I forgot to put on your to-do list.

Get tested for STD's.

DNA test your children. 

I know; you know their yours and even if they weren't you wouldn't feel different about them. But that's not the more important reason. It's another needed consequence to her. It let's her have a better understanding of how you distrust her and don't believe what she says.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

OK Stop worrying about what other people will think. I am really going to be crude here. Grow a set of balls and do it know.

Do you think your wife thought about your feelings when she had her legs in the air getting pounded my this other guy or maybe she was worried about your feelings while she was on her knees.

The exposure is for two reasons. 1 to make sure the real story of what is going on gets out to the people that you will always have contact with your families. 2 to slap her out of this fantasy world of rainbows and unicorns.

The OMW has the right to know what you know. That is right and wrong.

Stop being a beta and in the next hour you call her Mom and Dad, Your Mom and Dad and that POS OM's wife

Get it done


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

mahike said:


> Get a Job no matter what she says she does not see you in a husband lover role.
> 
> You need to shake her out of the Affair Fog. (I know a great many on this site do not like the term)
> 
> You have to expose the PA to her family and yours, you need to expose that POS OM as well. He is married right?


I'm not sure about exposing the PA to our families. There has never been a known incidence of infidelity in my family (if there was, no one's talking). Also there's only been 3 divorces. Ever. It's likely that exposure would poison any relationship with my family, which would kill any chance of R. 

Yes, he's been married for 20 years, and has two sons around 17-18 years old.



mahike said:


> Tell your wife you want an STD test done and right now. She will tell you it was protected sex and it was one time. Tell her that you know she is capable of lying and you have no basis to believe her.


Actually, I know they had unprotected sex. She actually wrote to the OM about it: "By contrast, I use condoms with (my husband) (as other forms of birth control could increase the
chances of sex), but not with you. Since you've been in my life,
I stopped with the condom purchases on trips and trying to
figure out if I should sleep with every co-counsel. I actually
have the strongest sense of fidelity with you that I have ever
experienced. It's sort of like, if you've had great wine, why
would you ever want to drink a box-of-wine again." Pretty tough to take, and there is a hint there of at least thinking about and temptation for ONS's before.



mahike said:


> Let her know that there is no privacy, passwords, to everything or there is the door. You have to be firm on this.


She already knows this, and believes there's nothing she can do to hide things from me. And she hates this fact. Now she feels violated that I can spy on her (and have), but before she knew I always could, but she didn't care - she had nothing to hide. No trust means no privacy for her, as far as I'm concerned.



mahike said:


> She needs to know that you are willing to end the marriage on the spot and are not willing to put up wither her BS any longer.
> 
> If you do continue in MC, the only thing that can be talked about right now is the PA and not your short comings, that will be later.


Were not talking about that at all - just how to be less hostile and protect our children from this conflict. Basically, separation counseling.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Mad SAHD said:


> I'm not sure about exposing the PA to our families. There has never been a known incidence of infidelity in my family (if there was, no one's talking). Also there's only been 3 divorces. Ever. *It's likely that exposure would poison any relationship with my family, which would kill any chance of R. *


That's a mistake MAD. Your fear of divorce is palpable. 

The rarity of it in your families is all the more reason to expose her.

This is what she brought on herself. It should be an expected consequence and she best accept it. You should be more worried about the here and now and short circuiting her A; than an R they may never happen.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

convert said:


> You have a friend or a friend of a friend delivery the info to OMW
> 
> or you set up a fake email and send the info from some other IP address stating that you are a co worker or something and that you (the fake person) is sending the info to the real you as if the both of you are being notified
> 
> ...


As I said, he lives halfway across the country. There's no one I know who has any connection to the OM or the OMW at all. Basically there is no way I could tell her (and her confront him) without him (and eventually my WW) from finding out. The relation between them is otherwise too unlikely. The connection from work would be a giveaway. So exposure would definitely be traced back to me.

I found her Facebook page. I suppose I could send an initial message to her. 

There's pretty much nothing the OM could do if I want to expose him. I have hundreds of pages of explicit as well as personally identifying messages going back and forth. I don't think I would send it all - there's no need and it likely would only cause more harm than good.

One thing to note is that while I have all these records of their communication, they actually have none of it. Towards the end the OM got nervous and asked WW to delete all e-mails and messages, which she did. I even saved the e-mail where he asked her to do this. I'm not sure what this gives me over them having it as well, but I'm not really wanting to hand this stuff over to my WW. What good could it ever do her? Only harm could come of that, I would think.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I'm pissed off to no end reading these emails from her to him. 

Where is your anger ? You seem to be taking it all in stride.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## timedoesnothealall (Sep 15, 2013)

Many parallels to my story here. This coming Sept will be 30 yrs since Dday. 

My WW also cont'd with her co-worker while we underwent counseling and that was an unmitigated disaster and total waste of money. The pining, protecting OM and blame-shifting was relentless. Two concurrent moves on my part brought both of them to their knees: 1. She learned that I'd scheduled an appt. with an atty. 2. I contacted OMW. She was not indecisive! OM backed off in Guiness Book record time. 

You have no decent chance at R so long as she continues to pine and prolong the dream. OM's wife might well be your strongest ally; get her on your team ASAP.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

OK your excuses indicate just how Beta you are. Please keep in mind that most of the people her are BS's ourselves. What we are suggesting is tried and tested.

We also know your approach will not work, it will cause you more harm and it will cause your kids more pain.

If you do divorce she will get her version of what happened out and it will be how you drove her to the arms of another man.

Not the true story that she chose to take of er clothes and f another married man at a hotel.

If you want to heal and you want what is best for the kids is to get your wife out of this fog and fighting for her kids and her marriage. 

Exposure is key! You need to be the guy that takes charge of what is going on and make things happen. Right now you are being Mr. Passive and they is why she (I am being crude for a reason) acted like a cheap date with that POS

know you cannot cover all the bases. She probably has a burner phone. Easy to pick up at Walmart, CVS, Circle K, 7 - 11 and so on.

I am really in pain reading your responses because I was you and your approach is a Greek tragedy in the making


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

Really!, Send me his name and law firm via a PM and I will give you his home address in less then an hour, maybe his home phone number. it is not hard to figure out


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Mad SAHD said:


> As I said, he lives halfway across the country. There's no one I know who has any connection to the OM or the OMW at all. Basically there is no way I could tell her (and her confront him) without him (and eventually my WW) from finding out. The relation between them is otherwise too unlikely. The connection from work would be a giveaway. So exposure would definitely be traced back to me.
> 
> I found her Facebook page. I suppose I could send an initial message to her.
> 
> ...


No, you don't need to *ever* provide her your evidence; in fact you shouldn't even tell her what it is. If the OM's wife or her mother/father ask for proof - no problem with letting them see just enough of it to convince them.

Do you have her deleted e-mails as well? If not, what type of e-mail does she use? If it's a Windows based e-mail (Outlook, Windows Mail) they can be recovered.

More than anything, I have a hard time understanding your hesitancy to expose the POSOM. You should want him to regret that he chose *YOUR* wife to cheat with, and you can make that happen. The longer you wait, the more chance for him to prepare his wife. You simply can't let your fear of divorce over ride what you need to do. She deserves consequences and so does he.

Those consequences to her will give you the opportunity to test her remorse. And if she fails that test, then you've confirmed that D is the best option anyway.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

There are a few issues I see here and they have all been addressed but I'd like to lay it out a little differently.

Things you need to understand
1. Odds are HIGHLY in favor of the fact that your wife has slept with numerous ONS's. They way it's stated about how she's lost interest in them....that suggests she has always done them.
2. You're not going to believe number 1. Let go of who YOU think your wife is. You don't truly know her. (OBVIOUSLY). Step back, look at the details objectively (or as if a good friend's wife was doing what your wife is doing and think of how you'd advise him).
3. Holding onto a wife's respect and lust is very hard with being a SAHD. Women like to feel safe and secure and a SAHD doesn't really provide those feelings.

Now here are some things you'll need to do
1. Step back, find out who your wife TRULY is, from her actions, and decide if this is a woman worth being married to...AFFAIR AND ALL. Don't assume she'll stop. Assume if you stay with her, you're her stay at home nanny while she gets her financial needs met from herself and her sexual needs met from OM.
2. Expose to OMW. The most sure fire way to end the affair is to expose. If your wife becomes angry...guess why....you (her nanny) have just hurt her true love...that's why she's mad at you. WHO CARES. Exposing won't risk losing her, if you exposing made her angry to where she wouldn't consider staying with you...it's because she still loves HIM. Do you see the paradox here?
3. DO NOT get a job...YET. Being a stay at home parent gives you TREMENDOUS amounts of pull in the courts. Both monetarily as well as with custody. Get a job AFTER your divorced. Just make sure you take enough money out of your bank account and put it in an individual account to cover your lawyer fees.
4. Have free consults with as many of the best divorce attorney's in your area as you can think of. If you meet with them, it means your wife can't hire them.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

Dude, you have to expose the affair inmediatly, they will not end the affair as long as neither of them have any consequences, they just will take it underground:

- disposable cell phone.
- communication just by company mails and communicators.
- encounters just in working schedule.

and listo (done), ready to have a half decade of affair and encounters without the bs interfering until your wife begin to ask for more and the OM will be forced to end the affair,

I always say to BSs like you that are reluctant to expose *as disgusting as it sounds, think like the OM*, I have my loyal lovely wife at home intact, I am having hot crazy affair sex with a married woman, I am having my ego boost raised with a married woman telling me how much better compared to her husband I am and I don't have to commit and there is no consequences at all, sure her husbands knows but he is a p*ssy and she have him controlled, she assured me that he will do nothing, I mean it have been 3 months since he found, and he knows that we have been lying about stoping the affair several times and he have not confronted me, he have not told my wife and he have not contacted HR, why would I stop?, because her husband is hurting and crying at home, hell if I don't care hurting my own family why the hell would I care about him.

As long as your wife and the OM don't see any consequences they have no reason to stop, if they could stop to not hurt their families they would have not began the affair in first place, so the moral and sentiment factor is not going to stop them from keeping their affair.

you have to expose to everyone, to his family, to your family (*it does not matter that in your family it have never happened before, it happened to you and if you want a shot to fix your marriage it have to be done correctly by she figuring out the damage she has caused and be willing to fix it, if not the reconcilation is not worth the effort*), to their job (*in the best case scenario they will be transfered to different sections to keep them appart, in the worst she and he will be fired but as I read you have a large amount of assets and can keep the family expenses until she finds a new job then there is no problem*), to all his FB friends, to organizations he belongs, to the church he assist, *to everyone*.

the OM is using your own wife against you to keep you quiet (by her threatening you with divorce if you expose him) but if she really is willing to throw her marriage away to protect the OM and keep being her mistress then your marriage is doomed anyway, we have seen this empty threat 100's of times here, *don't hesitate*, expose him and see how the OM throw your WW under the buss to save her marrriage and career and she will finally wake up from her phatasy world once the OM goes in survival mode blaming her for everything to his family and associates (*again we have also seen this 100's of times here*)


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

If you don't want to expose, you should at least reach out to him and tell him that you have all this proof of an affair and if he continues to talk to your wife you will send them to his wife (and provide her name and address so he knows you are serious). Don't even tell your wife you are doing it... 

He will tuck his **** between his legs and pray you don't tell his wife...yours will know she's being used.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

badmemory said:


> Mad,
> 
> Yes, being a SAHD is often one of the catalysts for a wife's cheating. It's a loss of respect thing, even if they won't admit it. We've seen this be the case time after time on this forum.
> 
> ...


Loss of respect my foot! :rofl:

They decide to start cheating and then they reach into the Big Cheater's Grab Bag of Excuses and pull out....

You are too controlling
You are not controlling enough
You are a stay at home dad
You work too hard and too long
You make a funny face when you orgasm
You are too stupid for me
You are too clever for me

etc....


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Another poster actually got an attorney fired from his partnership by posting him on cheaterville.com.

Exposure is used to break up the affair. That's all. You HAVE to expose to the OM's wife to do that. At this point your marriage is toast, breaking up the affair is your only shot at saving your marriage.

I would also send him an excerpt, after exposing him to his wife, of the evidence you have. I would include a link to cheaterville.com and explain to him how if anyone googled his name, and he happened to be posted there, they will see what kind of guy he really is. You might send him a reference to how they were going to lie about the affair being over.

You might hold off on exposing to your families until you see if he heads for the hills. I really doubt your wife is anything more to him than a fling anyway. Men lie about loving their cheating spouse. 

Number two, after contacting his wife, download MARREID MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER at amazon.com. It will explain why your wife lost respect and affection for you as a SAHD and what to do about that. 

As a stay at home dad, over the years your manhood has been whittled down to bare bones. If you follow the advice here you can regain your identity and possibly your family. However, the wisdom here indicates a serial cheater cannot be fixed. From what you have posted it sounds like she has had several ONS and considered many more with other attorneys. Google serial cheaters and see what you think.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

File for divorce. Now. You can always withdraw the action later.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

heck there are probably several people here that would help you or do the exposure for you if you wanted but it would be better for you to do it.
it might even show you ww that you are standing up and fighting for the marriage.
when i did it with my ww she even mention she like the new me (No More Mr Nice Guy)


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## X-B (Jul 25, 2013)

You have to expose and make OM afraid to contact your wife. He will never stop if he knows there are no repercussions.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> Another poster actually got an attorney fired from his partnership by posting him on cheaterville.com.
> 
> Exposure is used to break up the affair. That's all. You HAVE to expose to the OM's wife to do that. At this point your marriage is toast, breaking up the affair is your only shot at saving your marriage.
> 
> *I would also send him an excerpt, after exposing him to his wife, of the evidence you have. * I would include a link to cheaterville.com and explain to him how if anyone googled his name, and he happened to be posted there, they will see what kind of guy he really is. You might send him a reference to how they were going to lie about the affair being over.


Bingo!! :iagree:

Spot on advice, please follow it. If OM is the POS scumbag we all know he is, he will run for the hills.


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## Suspecting2014 (Jun 11, 2014)

First of all I would like to apology for my English, is not my first language but I will try to express myself clearly.

I believe that in this forum are a lot of pain and anger, and it is natural, but I notice that you seems to be very calm and passive about your situation (I may be wrong so forgive if I am), and think I know why.

You need to empower yourself in order to help you kids your wife and yourself safe. Please let me explain.

In the DD, the BS goes really hurt, angry … and the CS try is by all means to protect his/her self by justifying the Affair playing the victim roll. This step must be transitory so the CS finds his/her way out.

In order to move to the next step, leaving the fog, the BS needs to empower his/her self sowing the CS how most the affair hurts him/her, the kids and the whole M. your wife has not realize how much damage has infringe to her family.

You my friend been weak and passive has kept you wife from moving on, and that has brought much more pain into your marriage. Is like a no way out. She is lasting the affair but not moving out home with the children excuse (speaking as divorced parents I can assure you that more damage is being together that split). You are stock.

Being mad is not enough to move on, you should show her that your are hurt by acting not saying, so she will know you r a very different men than the one she feel no respect at all. 

Try 180 techniques, knowing that it is not for rebuild marriage, this is an extra bonus, but to improve yourself, makes you stronger so you can look after your kids and yourself. 

When you get stronger you can take control over your situation, and help your wife put herself out of the fog.

When you are strong, she will change her attitude. One example could be the emailing, to heal she must be willing to let you check her mails, not need to spy.

Your wife made the mistake, no doubt about it (she is not the victim you and your kids are), even if you marriage had other problems before the A. Anyhow you must think that she is the mother of your children, so you must try to help her (even it at the end you get divorced). Letting her do whatever she is trying, in the fog, only huts herself and her family.

In other hand, you must send the information to the OMW, but if you believe that saving your marriage is possible not share this information to everybody, just a closer friend or your own family. If you tell everybody you only will bring shame to your children mother.

If the OMW knows it probably will the affair and release your wife from all this confusion and let her move on, in your arms or into a divorce, but at least you all could see and end.

You should ask for a DNA for paternity, I know, as was already told in this forum, that your kids are you no matter what, but to keep them safe is important to know about possible parent getting to your kids life any time in the future. Your must be prepare.

Finally, I agree with the others that you must get a STD, don’t tell your wife this must be for your health. Further on your must ask her for a STD when she is out of the fog before sex again.

Don’t get me wrong maybe your marriage is over, but I believe you must protect your kids and yourself.

I must apology, to you or any other person that feels offended with my words; it was not what I pretended.

Good luck

PS chaters point of view could help http://www.dailystrength.org/groups/cheatersanonymous/discussions


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## Suspecting2014 (Jun 11, 2014)

Just another thing
Teach your children to respect theirself by respecting yourself!! they dont need to go throgt this in their future mariages.


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## Suspecting2014 (Jun 11, 2014)

First of all I would like to apology for my English, is not my first language but I will try to express myself clearly.

I believe that in this forum are a lot of pain and anger, and it is natural, but I notice that you seems to be very calm and passive about your situation (I may be wrong so forgive if I am), and think I know why.

You need to empower yourself in order to help you kids your wife and yourself safe. Please let me explain.

In the DD, the BS goes really hurt, angry … and the CS try is by all means to protect his/her self by justifying the Affair playing the victim roll. This step must be transitory so the CS finds his/her way out.

In order to move to the next step, leaving the fog, the BS needs to empower his/her self sowing the CS how most the affair hurts him/her, the kids and the whole M. your wife has not realize how much damage has infringe to her family.

You my friend been weak and passive has kept you wife from moving on, and that has brought much more pain into your marriage. Is like a no way out. She is lasting the affair but not moving out home with the children excuse (speaking as divorced parents I can assure you that more damage is being together that split). You are stock.

Being mad is not enough to move on, you should show her that your are hurt by acting not saying, so she will know you r a very different men than the one she feel no respect at all. 

Try 180 techniques, knowing that it is not for rebuild marriage, this is an extra bonus, but to improve yourself, makes you stronger so you can look after your kids and yourself. 

When you get stronger you can take control over your situation, and help your wife put herself out of the fog.

When you are strong, she will change her attitude. One example could be the emailing, to heal she must be willing to let you check her mails, not need to spy .

Your wife made the mistake, no doubt about it (she is not the victim you and your kids are), even if you marriage had other problems before the A. Anyhow you must think that she is the mother of your children, so you must try to help her (even it at the end you get divorced). Letting her do whatever she is trying, in the fog, only huts herself and her family.

In other hand, you must send the information to the OMW, but if you believe that saving your marriage is possible not share this information to everybody, just a closer friend or your own family.
If you tell everybody you only will bring shame to your children mother. 

If the OMW knows it probably will the affair and release your wife from all this confusion and let her move on, in your arms or into a divorce, but at least you all could see and end.

You should ask for a DNA for paternity, I know, as was already told in this forum, that your kids are you no matter what, but to keep them safe is important to know about possible parent getting to your kids life any time in the future. Your must be prepare.

Finally, I agree with the others that you must get a STD, don’t tell your wife this must be for your health. Further on your must ask her for a STD when she is out of the fog before sex again.

Don’t get me wrong maybe your marriage is over, but I believe you must protect your kids and yourself.

I must apology, to you or any other person that feels offended with my words; it was not what I pretended.

Good luck

PS Cheaters point of view may help
Cheaters Anonymous Discussions - DailyStrength


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Why have you not exposed this POS?

Not only does his BW deserve to know what you know, it is the BEST way to end the A.

And combine telling his BW with a mass exposure to both of your families and all of your friends.

Then file for D and tell her YOU have no interest in staying with a traitorous W who completely lacks remorse for destroying her own M and her own children's home.

Make her see that she is about to lose her entire life...and exposing POS will almost assuredly lead to the destruction of her Fantasyland escape.

POS will probably throw her under the bus to save his own worthless a**....if that happens your stupid WW will see that she is going to be left alone with nothing remaining from her former nice life.

This is the only chance of waking her up...she has to see she is losing everything.


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## bartendersfriend (Oct 14, 2013)

Mad SAHD said:


> I'm not sure about exposing the PA to our families. There has never been a known incidence of infidelity in my family (if there was, no one's talking). Also there's only been 3 divorces. Ever. It's likely that exposure would poison any relationship with my family, which would kill any chance of R.


I'm sorry you are going through all of this. I know it is not easy and that some of the advice from posters on TAM can be more abrasive than others... I think often times to get you to act (and not make excuses out of fear of what may be).

I will say, in my case, that exposing to family did two things:
1) It made me see things very differently. Infidelity is not as uncommon in your "world" as you think. My eyes were opened to several incidences within my close circle that surprised me... it may help you to feel differently about your relationships and understand the dynamic in other relationships.
2) It helped my wife snap out of the fog. She was terrified to have to face her actions. And, the way she talked about the A after talking to her mom (and others) was very different. She started referring to it as a fantasy and felt much more manipulated by the OM.

You're going to do what you want to do... I am in strong agreement that exposure is necessary... regardless of how you think it will make you look and how "embarrassing" it is. You will be amazed by the people that come to "your side".


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## lewmin (Nov 5, 2012)

I'm hoping to be post #50.

Exposure is a theme on post #:
2,3,6,10,11,14,18,19,23,24,25,27,28,30,32,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,43,45,46,47,50


WE know what we are talking about from our collective experience.
Don't you think this is enough feedback for you to do this.

It has to be done, for all the reasons mentioned in this post. We have all lived through this - so we know!


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## bartendersfriend (Oct 14, 2013)

lewmin said:


> I'm hoping to be post #50.


I beat you to it! But, that was the theme of post #50.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Expose already.

She does not respect you.

Respect yourself.

She is not helpful in the family situation about no anger. 

Report her to her family, report OM to his wife.

I do feel for you, but I will say this, you do need to respect yourself and grow a pair.

She would not put up with your cheating. How would she feel if the roles were reversed?


Sorry to say it, but you do.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

OP. what do you want? Do you hope to stay married or do you choose divorce? Right now it seems your wife is choosing divorce and you are in a kind of no man's land. 

I don't see the current direction ending well for you, but until I know what you hope for it is hard to make constructive suggestions.

One initial comment, unless you are done, do NOT expose your intelligence. And, assuming your wife knows what you watch, start thinking about how she might establish a secret communications channel and how you would detect it. Also think about exposure. Some here see it as a mandatory step in asserting your manhood, but I would counsel a more strategic approach. Work out what you want, then work out the best way to get it. Once exposed, you can never unexpose.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

If your marriage is so bad and other man is so good, why is your wife considering staying with you? It sounds like she had decided to leave the marriage before the one-night stands. Why did she decide on having one-night stands if she was so unhappy? Why not just leave you?

From your end, why do you want to stay with a woman who doesn't want you? She had you for years, has kids with you, and in a few months time fell so deeply in love with another man that she is ready to commit to him for the rest of her life (I'm referring to the 50 years remark).

I think the more you act like you don't need her and are moving on, the more she will want you back. Let her know that you love her, and are willing to work on the marriage, but not until she dumps other man and commits to you and the marriage fully. In the meantime, blow up the other man's world, tell his wife, tell the job, and file for divorce. When she finds out what you've done, repeat again that you love her and are willing to work on the marriage, but not until she dumps the other man.

This will take a while to play out. Take some time to do some introspection and figure out why you want to stay with her. From what you've posted, her thought process is a little messed up with the way she thinks about solving marital problems by having one-night stands, instead of just telling you "we're through."


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

OP, ALL these previous posters, including myself, have been cheated on. Please take our advice. The advice given is the cure to a lot of your problems. If you read our stories, you will read what works and what doesn't. 

I don't think your wife is in a fog, I think she sees nothing wrong at all in how she conducts herself in a marriage. Honestly, I don't even see a pertnership between you and your wife at all. I think your wife is happy living a single life. 

I personally don't see a good case for reconciliation in your case. 

Also, NO WONDER YOU'RE DEPRESSED! I would be depressed if I lived in your marriage. I think you could solve many problems with individual counseling and a divorce. The Mr. Passive Nice Guy is never going to work. It never does. Your wife is seriously taking advantage of you and will never take you or your marriage seriously. Your wife is a lawyer for goodness sakes, she probably doesn't even flinch around the toughest of people and she has seen all sorts of manipulations. YOU, sir are being manipulated off the charts. 

I call bullsh!t on fog. I'm calling it snow - as in snow job. 

Please stay here and read some stories, I assure you it will help. Get yourself into some individual counseling and work on yourself.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

And of course expose to OM's wife. Cheating 101


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Just Joe said:


> If your marriage is so bad and other man is so good,* why is your wife considering staying with you?* It sounds like she had decided to leave the marriage before the one-night stands. Why did she decide on having one-night stands if she was so unhappy? Why not just leave you?




His money.

She knows her husband is weak and that's why she stayed engaged with this repeated behavior.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

aug said:


> His money.
> 
> She knows her husband is weak and that's why she stayed engaged with this repeated behavior.


I usually think "money" or "reputation" as reasons cheaters stay if they are supposedly so unhappy.

Mad SAHD did post that his income, apparently just the interest and dividends from family investments, made up the larger share of family income in some years. If so, that's got to be a nice chunk of change as principal. It's not clear whether or not cheating wife would be entitled to that money. She is an attorney so my guess is that she would know whether or not she is entitled to his money in a divorce. What do you say, Mad SAHD, is money an issue?


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Add me to the many people who advise you to expose the affair. For the reasons mentioned, and a couple of others.

First of all, you NEED support to get through this horrible time. Tell your family! Tell your friends! If her family or friends ask what's going on, why your relationship has changed, tell them! You might think keeping it secret spares you embarrassment, but it also prevents you from much needed emotional support from people who care about you. A bunch of strangers on the internet are no substitute.

Second of all, the other man's wife NEEDS to know her husband is a lying cheating scumbag. Telling her is the right thing to do. If you hadn't stumbled across your wife's affair, and someone else knew about it, wouldn't you want to be told? Wouldn't it SUCK to find out later that someone could have told you all along but didn't?

You aren't doing exposure because it will affect your wife, or her lover, by making their affair harder to maintain, or punitively shaming them. You are exposing because it it affects the innocent parties, YOU and the other betrayed spouse, in a beneficial way.


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## Suspecting2014 (Jun 11, 2014)

She is gaining time, get advice, attorney advice.


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## Suspecting2014 (Jun 11, 2014)

Read this:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read-2.html


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Sorry Mad, this is not personal, but intended to show you why she does not respect you and sees you as a 'walk over'.

Your use of language is slow and weak, maybe your actions are alike, apart from the spying part, which you are very good at. Women do not like this soft, fearful, unmanly attitude and speak you display. An example from a post of you:




Mad SAHD said:


> As I said, he lives halfway across the country. There's no one I know who has any connection to the OM or the OMW at all.
> 
> Weak, dependent on others, statement.
> 
> ...


You need to read and ACT UPON the books No More Mr. Nice Guy and Married Man Sex Life Primer.

Just a little bit to that would change your life in a major sense.

But not with her, she is lost for you, a long time ago.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Why are you so worried about her finding out that you are telling the APs W? My WW had several long distance A's and I had no issue at all once I discovered them, searching and calling up the AP's Ws and talking directly to them. I just had the information in front of me for proof so if they tried to turn it on me as false and made up, I had the direct proof to offer and quote so they couldn't refute my claims.

Grow a pair and just do it.

I also find it odd that you refer to yourself as a hacker and security expert, but still think you have total control of her channels of communication and can trace everything. Unless you have her office and office lines/ computer/ etc bugged, you can prove 100% that she does not have another email account and burner phone, you have no idea what she is doing more than anyone that is not checking at all. Any true expert would know tho and not make claims about having it all covered.

My WW used a burner phone (bought by her mom), friends phones when with them, work devices, and she had created several snapchat, meebo (now defunct social network), FB hidden message, twitter, and other social accounts to hide everything (and my WW is not technically savvy either), but she had the AP guiding her and going behind her and cleansing everything. He even created guides for her on how to do things.

Her AP was also in IT and when I found out, he challenged me like he was something special. I took the challenge and found most of the hidden stuff (can't claim all as I will never be able to as anyone can have a hidden email and FB account in these days with gmail, yahoo, and other easily set up accounts, since no further verification is necessary to set them up). I was able to trace everything back to his government work desk (ip address assigned to his specific computer and the mac address associated), so like I say it is amazing what they can do and we give them little recognition for being able to do.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Sorry to have you here but here are my thoughts on your situation:


Your "wife" is an entitled, selfish, lying, deceitful and disrespectful person. There is nothing justifiable about her cheating - nothing! No matter how bad your marriage or what you think you did wrong!

You now understand that she thinks nothing of lying to you and deceiving you.

She does not respect you in any way.

This marriage is over and has been over for some time.

You need to recover your self-respect which you seem to have lost big time! Get a job. Get independence from her. Don't even think of R at this stage. Don't waste money or time on MC. Gather and secure evidence (which I believe you have done). Lawyer up and protect yourself and custody to your kids. Do the 180. Do not leave but kick her out.

The POSOM has grown kids and doesn't care about his family now. However expose far and wide - his wife, her family and friends, their employers - not to just stop their affair but to also make them feel the repercussions of their actions. Blow this up - post on Cheaterville and similar sites. Isolate yourself from any of her toxic friends.

The only chance you have of getting her back on the right terms is if two things happen: ironically, you are genuinely ready to walk away and lose her (not want her); and for her to be truly remorseful - that means to not only acknowledge and own the wrong she has done, but to proactively do all the heavy lifting to put it right. Basically she has to hit rock bottom which it doesn't appear she is going to do any time soon. Even if she did, if you did your self-healing right, there is a strong chance that you will not want her back.

Do not let having kids be the reason you try to stay together or do not expose. Staying together in a miserable marriage is a lot more destructive to kids.

You have to make yourself the best man and dad you can be - physically and emotionally. This, plus getting a job, will make you a lot more attractive to her, and to other hotties out there.

Take control of your life, expose this, and file for D ASAP!


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)




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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mad SAHD said:


> Any comments would be appreciated.


She's a strong personality (lawyer), you're a weak personality (depression, SAHD), so she has lost respect for you. If you want ANY hope of ditching the OM and saving the marriage, you must act TODAY and call all her important people and tell them she's having an affair, and you're requesting their help in getting the OM out of the picture so that you two can address your marriage issues without her having a backup plan. Tell them that, if she gives counseling a fair shot and still isn't happy, you'll sign her walking papers but that it is unfair to the kids AND you for her to just tear up the family for a fling without even trying. She'll be mad (good!) but the allure of the affair will be dampened. Hopefully, they'll tell her he's not welcome to Thanksgiving dinner (crash her fantasy) but, even if they don't, HER knowing that THEY know will harm the affair.

What have you got to lose at this point? If you do nothing, you'll be out on your ear without your kids, without your wife, and with no money.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mad SAHD said:


> I'm not sure about exposing the PA to our families. There has never been a known incidence of infidelity in my family (if there was, no one's talking). Also there's only been 3 divorces. Ever. It's likely that exposure would poison any relationship with my family, which would kill any chance of R.


Not true. IF she gives up the affair, and becomes repentant, she will see what she's done to the marriage, be horrified, and go straight to your family and hers and apologize for what she did. People forgive humble people. Happens all the time.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mad SAHD said:


> Basically there is no way I could tell her (and her confront him) without him (and eventually my WW) from finding out.


You don't understand the POINT of exposure. It is done EXACTLY so the two cheaters find out that everyone now knows. Once the light shines on the sordid affair, it's no longer fun, exciting - it's embarrassing and NOT the greatest thing since sliced bread. 

Once you expose, your wife will have to make a decision - live with a POS no one likes, or become humble and take back the marriage.

btw, do they work at the same company? A phone call to his boss is also in order.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Everyone is giving you great advice, but I may have missed the important post. Why is she dictating things in the reconciliation? I told my wife she will never contact dude again or we are done. 
She gave you the gift of 30 days no contact, while becoming friends on Facebook and she was nice enough to do marriage counseling to see where she is at? All of this from a SERIAL cheater? This is ridiuclous and please don't trot out "but it's for the kids." No, it is for her ego and self gratification. I wouldn't be surprised if it is to keep up appearances for her "job." Can't go for partner if your life is a wreck. Can't become DA if your life mirros the cases you are trying.

Yes, I know you can't "stop" her from doing anything, but you can enable consequences. Reconciliation is a GIFT, but somehow you are doing the hard work.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

:iagree:

and
^^^ wow Phillybeffandswiss, you are the first poster that did not mention Exposure


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Yeah the OP's wife's actions irked me. The more he excused exposure, the more irritated I became. You guys had the exposure covered, I wanted him to realize how ridiculous his wife sounds to me. 

3 affairs, but he gets a chance at a possibility of reconciliation, if she feels up to it? if his finances are family inheritance, it is very hard to touch if it isn't mixed. We'd be in court figuring out alimony and the Child support she was going to pay me.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yeah the OP's wife's actions irked me. The more he excused exposure, the more irritated I became. You guys had the exposure covered, I wanted him to realize how ridiculous his wife sounds to me.
> 
> 3 affairs, but he gets a chance at a possibility of reconciliation, if she feels up to it? if his finances are family inheritance, it is very hard to touch if it isn't mixed. We'd be in court figuring out alimony and the Child support she was going to pay me.


Even if the finances are from family, if he is drawing off of them it "could" still be considered income for deciding contributions to the family support, so she may be able to get any of that money but she also may not owe him anything in spousal support due to this income as he said it was pretty much the ams if not more than she earned (so he could still owe her support depending on how it figures).


(I have disability from the military and was specifically told since it was my disability and from before the M, she couldn't get any of it directly, but it could be used in figuring my income, so dependent on the figures I could owe spousal support based on its contributions to my income.)


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Nope, not going down the semantic derail route. I apologize.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It was a partial joke with truth based on my state. Depending on the state, like where I live, it is not part of equitable distribution. Yes, I checked when I was thinking about divorce.


I was told the same thing that it is not part of equitable distribution, but that it could be considered as income which is something different entirely. 

Equitable distribution is generally split 50/50 like real estate, personal property, investments (IRA, 401K),, and debt, but income is exempt from this 50/50 split (there is no right of the spouse to get half of your income it is wholly yours a is hers). 

However, income can be used in determining spousal support and custodial support, dependent on amount each contributes and the differences between the incomes used to figure allocated support. I was told that these types of things "could" be considered as income for that purpose so in effect it is possible that a spouse would get a portion dependent on the support amount assigned as it would come out of this "income bucket".


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> I was told the same thing that it is not part of equitable distribution, but that it could be considered as income which is something different entirely.
> 
> Equitable distribution is generally split 50/50 like real estate, personal property, investments (IRA, 401K),, and debt, but income is exempt from this 50/50 split (there is no right of the spouse to get half of your income it is wholly yours a is hers).
> 
> However, income can be used in determining spousal support and custodial support, dependent on amount each contributes and the differences between the incomes used to figure allocated support. I was told that these types of things "could" be considered as income for that purpose so in effect it is possible that a spouse would get a portion dependent on the support amount assigned as it would come out of this "income bucket".


Peace, I know better than to continue.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Mad SAHD said:


> I told her that her sudden pessimistic turn about our marriage was likely cognitive dissonance resolution in action. As is usually the case when you point something like that out, she doubled down on the self-deception.


Cognitive Dissonance.... good phrase. Going to use that in the future.

Your wife is completely gone. GTFO while you still have an ounce of dignity. She's LONG checked out off your relationship and the ho didn't even have the decency to tell you. Sorry to offend you but your wife is a selfish POS. Let's take a closer look why: 

1) She's a SERIAL cheater and your feelings meant nothing to her. She puts the itch in her crotch before you like some fvcking animal. Get tested for STDs man. ASAP.

2) She went out seeking casual sex from men, the AP in particular she knew was married without any regard to their spouses feelings either. That's makes her scum from a human decency standpoint too.

3) She ACTIVELY plotted to deceive you during and AFTER the affair. Continued to disrespect even AFTER she knew you had found out post D-Day. So this "sparing your feels" line is TOTAL CRAP.

4) She has no respect for you at all. Wronged you and rather than do everything she can to right the ship she STILL has the nerve to make it about her. Like you share some blame she's a skank. She's an immature brat.

5) Clearly you are scared of divorce. I get it dude but you're alternative is to be the spineless cuckhold doormat she thinks you are. You need to man up and stop getting played. Dump her. 

6) You need to EXPOSE this a$$hole whether you try to save your unsalvageable marriage or not. Pretend you still wear the pants and blow this mother fvcker up. The AP and your stbx wife are literally LAUGHING behind your back.

7) Why would you even want her back? Cause you love her? Please dude, she's a remorseless cheater and borderline hates you. You'd rather take her back and live with this resentment the rest of your life??? All her inhibitions to do this to you in the future are completely out the window. Why wouldn't she do it again? Honestly? Why not?


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

That pretty much covers it.


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## SF-FAN (Sep 24, 2013)

convert said:


> you really should out (Expose) the OM to his BS regardless of the case they are working on.
> 
> you can do this exposure in a way that it came from someone else.
> 
> ...


I don't know about this anymore. I've been on this website for about a year or so and it appears that when the BS file for D, it doesn't break any fog but rather gives the WS a push into their desired freedom or almost like if you're doing them a favor. Honestly, if a BS is going to file for D, I think they should just be ready for D and not really expect R.


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## BWBill (Jan 30, 2013)

_Honestly, if a BS is going to file for D, I think they should just be ready for D and not really expect R. 
_

Correct. Otherwise it's just bluffing.

The fact is that neither WS nor BS control each other. When the WS is gone, they're gone. Nice doesn't work, mean doesn't work, nothing works. Filing at least gives the BS some control and starts the separation process.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

SF-FAN said:


> I don't know about this anymore. I've been on this website for about a year or so and it appears that when the BS file for D, it doesn't break any fog but rather gives the WS a push into their desired freedom or almost like if you're doing them a favor. Honestly, if a BS is going to file for D, I think they should just be ready for D and not really expect R.


BS's hardly take any "hits" unless pulling their financial backing and emotional support topples them a bit. If they got alot of their emotional support from you specifically it will sting and hurt when it's gone.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> Cognitive Dissonance.... good phrase. Going to use that in the future.


:lol::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

Mad SAHD said:


> "By contrast, I use condoms with (my husband) (as other forms of birth control could increase the
> chances of sex), but not with you. Since you've been in my life,
> *I stopped with the condom purchases on trips* and trying to figure out if I should sleep with every co-counsel. I actually have the strongest sense of fidelity with you that I have ever experienced. It's sort of like, if you've had great wine, why would you ever want to drink a box-of-wine again."


I wish more posters would post direct quotes from their cheaters. You can see so much more of what is going on.

Am I reading this wrong, or is she basically saying she bought condoms on every trip? Wouldn't that mean she was using condoms on every trip?

This is making me sick. Does she really make you wear a rubber? Maybe it's just me, but I think that might even be worse than the cheating. No way I could take it. What reason does she give for it?


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

SF-FAN said:


> I don't know about this anymore. I've been on this website for about a year or so and it appears that when the BS file for D, it doesn't break any fog but rather gives the WS a push into their desired freedom or almost like if you're doing them a favor. Honestly, if a BS is going to file for D, I think they should just be ready for D and not really expect R.


It follows a pattern, just like the cheating. Mostly guys post here, and most of them are pretty clueless, ignored a lot of signs, and I've noticed that by the time most of them get here things are too far gone to save. I'm no different as far as being clueless, or at least I was, but I was just fortunate in how I acted and how my wife reacted when I finally did get a clue.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Just Joe said:


> It follows a pattern, just like the cheating. Mostly guys post here, and most of them are pretty clueless, ignored a lot of signs, and I've noticed that by the time most of them get here things are too far gone to save. I'm no different as far as being clueless, or at least I was, but I was just fortunate in how I acted and how my wife reacted when I finally did get a clue.


@JJ, :iagree: at the end of the day its how we react...both waywards and betrayed.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> Cognitive Dissonance.... good phrase. Going to use that in the future.


If you want to read all about cognitive dissonance, go read the book "Mistakes Were Made (But Not By Me) Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts" by Carol Tavris & Elliot Aronson. The basic idea is that people need to believe they are fundamentally good people at heart, so when they act in a way that throws that belief into doubt, they subconsciously distort reality and memory to make their actions justifiable to themselves. There's a whole chapter in there about marriages and breakups and how our memories of them change as a relationship deteriorates. The authors argue that when someone in a marriage starts thinking of ending it, they start looking at the history of the marriage in a much more critical way, even going so far as believing, when they're committed to divorce, that they really never loved their spouse to begin with. The authors explain that cognitive dissonance resolution is in action both before they're thinking of leaving the relationship (when they resolve their cognitive dissonance at their underlying weakening commitment to their marriage by only seeing the good things in the marriage and glossing over the problems) and after their commitment to the marriage is eroded or gone, especially if they're unilaterally leaving and their spouse will be hurt by that, (when they resolve their cognitive dissonance by selectively remembering all the problems in the marriage and conveniently forgetting happy memories). 

I believe in the case of when a BS unexpectedly uncovers and is devastated by infidelity (as in my case), they would argue that the WS resolves their guilt at betraying and deceiving their BS and in being the kind of person that behaves so selfishly and hurts the person they believe they love by suddenly seeing their marriage in a suddenly more negative light, and their BS especially in a harshly more negative light. Suddenly the problems in the marriage are were caused by some inherent defect in the BS, or their BS should have known how unhappy the WS was, and it's their fault for being so blind, etc., etc. That is essentially what my WS has been arguing.

My initial question, which hasn't really been answered, and maybe can't really be answered here, is how much of this suddenly pessimistic view of me and our marriage is caused by cognitive dissonance, and how much of it is caused by affair fog, or her being "in love" or "in lust" with the AP? I know there is a good deal of the latter, as evidenced by my WS hostility and anger at me for throwing a wrench into what she believed in her addled mind was a healthy, emotionally intimate sexual relationship (as opposed to our dysfunctional and emotionally disconnected one). I actually agree with her view of our sexual relationship, but obviously see her affair as fundamentally dishonest, fantastical, and destructive. I would think that exposure may help clear the affair fog, but not change the cognitive dissonance resolution distorting her memories and opinions of me and our marriage.

Note that I'm not asking this in some desperate hope that she'll suddenly have a complete change of heart or anything. I'm just wondering if anybody has an opinion on the mindset of a WS who's been forcibly outed and spied upon.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

So what is it that you want to do?


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Mad SAHD said:


> My initial question, which hasn't really been answered, and maybe can't really be answered here, is how much of this suddenly pessimistic view of me and our marriage is caused by cognitive dissonance, and how much of it is caused by affair fog, or her being "in love" or "in lust" with the AP? I know there is a good deal of the latter, as evidenced by my WS hostility and anger at me for throwing a wrench into what she believed in her addled mind was a healthy, emotionally intimate sexual relationship (as opposed to our dysfunctional and emotionally disconnected one). I actually agree with her view of our sexual relationship, but obviously see her affair as fundamentally dishonest, fantastical, and destructive. I would think that exposure may help clear the affair fog, but not change the cognitive dissonance resolution distorting her memories and opinions of me and our marriage.


Cognitive dissonance is when you retroactively rearrange your thinking to justify your decision-making. Affair fog is when you aren't thinking at all but just floating on the euphoria of "this feels so good how can it be wrong?" and never looking beyond it.

I would guess you probably have affair fog before you have cognitive dissonance, but there would be possible overlap. First, affair fog turns off the cheater's thinking. Then, when they might start thinking again, cognitive dissonance sets in.

I asked my ex that a lot. "What were you thinking??" "How could you possible think I would be okay with this?"

And I got answers that varied from affair fog responses like "I wasn't thinking, it just happened," or "it was amazing, it was meant to be" to cognitive dissonance ones like "you liked seeing me happy" or "it helped our marriage."

You said it yourself though, the mental rewriting of the state of the marriage is all cognitive dissonance, not affair fog. An affair is escapism, in which there isn't any thinking at all.


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## Suspecting2014 (Jun 11, 2014)

I am afraid thet the only one that could answer your question is your wife once out of the fog. The only way to recognise the fog is wen is gone, this way she could see the fog, the wrongs and the cognitive dissonance.

To get our of the fog she needs to be put out of her safety net. In order to do achieve that I believe you have 2 ways:

1.- 180.This way you blow out her Plan B (your family)

2.- Expose (maybe just to his wife) . This way the subject of the fog will go away. get legal advice if you worry about their client.

In think this can get the job done. Showing that you are willing to divorce, asking her out, etc, she will freak out and get a new angle of her situation. Don worry she is leaving you after expose, of course she will be mad but they have been together for a shot time, he is not leaving his wife for yours.

And if you want to begin fixing yourself from the wrongs in your mariage read "NO MORE MR. NICE GUY!" Robert A. Glover

Sorry to repeat that others have being telling but I agree with them.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Mad SAHD said:


> My initial question, which hasn't really been answered, and maybe can't really be answered here, is how much of this suddenly pessimistic view of me and our marriage is caused by cognitive dissonance, and how much of it is caused by affair fog, or her being "in love" or "in lust" with the AP?


Clinical studies have shown this average:

Cognitive dissonance - 23.6%
Affair fog - 76.4%

Yes, that's sarcasm. I couldn't help myself. 

*WHAT DOES IT MATTER!?*

Mad, stop analyzing her. She cheated on you and she's not remorseful. For now, that's all you need to know.

We've given you a tried and true blueprint that will give you the best chance for a successful outcome; whether it be R or D. Use it.


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## Suspecting2014 (Jun 11, 2014)

Once the fog is gone, and she could see all the damage done (to her family, to you), she is going to try to justify the whole thing cognitive dissonance will increase.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

badmemory said:


> Clinical studies have shown this average:
> 
> Cognitive dissonance - 23.6%
> Affair fog - 76.4%
> ...


Exactly. Be less consumed w/ the why's, wherefore's, and particulars of her generally sh*tty behavior (which, I assure you, is no more or less "unique" than any other wayward spouse) and more concerned about the future of your family. I say this because, whether you want to reconcile or divorce, to date *you've handled this all wrong*.

Oh, and also...

Whether you want to reconcile or divorce, *EXPOSE THE AFFAIR TO THE OTHER MAN'S WIFE!!!* She deserves to know what an absolute piece of sh*t her husband is.


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## bartendersfriend (Oct 14, 2013)

Mad SAHD said:


> I believe in the case of when a BS unexpectedly uncovers and is devastated by infidelity (as in my case), they would argue that the WS resolves their guilt at betraying and deceiving their BS and in being the kind of person that behaves so selfishly and hurts the person they believe they love by suddenly seeing their marriage in a suddenly more negative light, and their BS especially in a harshly more negative light. Suddenly the problems in the marriage are were caused by some inherent defect in the BS, or their BS should have known how unhappy the WS was, and it's their fault for being so blind, etc., etc. That is essentially what my WS has been arguing.


I am not clear if you are saying that your WS just started doing this now (once discovered) or was doing it in the midst of the affair (and fog). Because, in my experience, this is what a WS is doing at the start of an affair (especially if it is a long-term affair and not a ONS). They start to see their marriage in an increasingly negative way to justify their ongoing actions. They highlight, in their mind, the needs that are not being met and the lack of connection with their spouse. The marriage becomes worse to justify what they "deserve" and desire. The fog gets thicker because they view the affair partner perfectly meeting all their needs and can do no wrong. That's why it is nearly impossible for any spouse to compete with the feelings a wayward feels in their affair.

I do not see though how they could ever blame the BS for not seeing it. I don't see how reconciliation is a possibility at all with that point of view. I don't know if that is the fog or if it is just a sign that things are too far gone. I think reconciliation requires a fairly quick snap "back to reality" where the WS understands they were a big part of their increasingly worsening marriage and lack of connection. That things are not perfect (and are usually very dysfunctional) with the other person.


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## MRABoysHaveSmallPeanut (Mar 13, 2014)

Ripper said:


>


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> I also find it odd that you refer to yourself as a hacker and security expert, but still think you have total control of her channels of communication and can trace everything. Unless you have her office and office lines/ computer/ etc bugged, you can prove 100% that she does not have another email account and burner phone, you have no idea what she is doing more than anyone that is not checking at all. Any true expert would know tho and not make claims about having it all covered.


Ah, but you see, the thing is, I do have those things 

As I said earlier, my WW is pretty guileless, and really got in over her head when she started having to hide things from me. Once I was tipped off, it wasn't much of a contest. Her AP is more careful, but not enough to make up for her.

Having all this surveillance can be a double-edged sword, however. Knowing the truth, and having to watch your spouse lie repeatedly to your face is definitely eye-opening but also truly depressing. I told my WW that the feeling I had most towards her was dismay - at how far she had fallen morally in my eyes and (eventually) in her own. It's as if her AP was a magnet, and her moral compass couldn't point anywhere else. I did, however, get one big benefit. By watching her carefully and observing when she was lying (which I knew ahead of time), I was able to detect her "tell", as they say in poker. Now I can tell if she's lying just from observing her carefully when she's talking. That's a pretty valuable advantage, as far as I'm concerned - one I don't think I would have been able to get any other way.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> Equitable distribution is generally split 50/50 like real estate, personal property, investments *(IRA, 401K),*, and debt, but income is exempt from this 50/50 split (there is no right of the spouse to get half of your income it is wholly yours a is hers).


Be careful and make sure your ducks are in a row on these. If you make the transfer without a QDRO and before you reach 59½ your going to have tax consequences. Remember to that alimony is tax deductible. Property settlements are not.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Cognitive dissonance is when you retroactively rearrange your thinking to justify your decision-making. Affair fog is when you aren't thinking at all but just floating on the euphoria of "this feels so good how can it be wrong?" and never looking beyond it.
> 
> I would guess you probably have affair fog before you have cognitive dissonance, but there would be possible overlap. First, affair fog turns off the cheater's thinking. Then, when they might start thinking again, cognitive dissonance sets in.
> 
> ...


Remember that she admits going out with the expressed intent of having a ONS, before she had even met her AP. So she had already justified her "need" for a ONS and the physical intimacy that accompanied it. In her mind, her having ONS's, starting at the end of February/beginning of March, was to help "tide her over" until I was well and whole again and intimacy with me wasn't so uncomfortable or psychically painful to her. She had 2 ONS's then, and when she came back from that trip, she didn't talk about the ONS's (obviously) but she did come out and say that she had suddenly come to the realization that she had been avoiding intimacy with me for some time because she found it too painful to see me depressed and overweight. That was the first time I think she had been even close to honest about our relationship, and was ironically when she began her deceit about the ONS's and the later affair. I took her admission to heart and redoubled my efforts to get better, which, to a great extent, I did by the time D-Day rolled around. To bad that effort (while not wasted as it was for my own benefit more than anything) came too late to rescue our marriage.

Her belief that having those initial ONS's and her idea that having these every so often during the year, was allowing her to stay in the marriage and wait it out until I was better, was of course completely contradicted by her love affair with ONS #2, a.k.a. her AP. As she explained to her AP a couple of weeks into the affair, "It has been very strange for me to realize that you are exactly what I've been searching for. Wow! And it's so amazing that there you were right on the very day that I was
ready. Even stranger is that I was only looking for a night of physical intimacy with a sexy and whole man. I always wanted someone in my life that I could tell anything to and have it be reciprocal. But, I didn't realize that I needed that with physical intimacy. I can't think of anything I would want more in this moment than to make love to you." So the physical intimacy (or, let's face it, sexual intimacy) was something she sought out. The emotional intimacy was what surprised her (although I don't know why it should have). The affair fog at that point was in full effect, because by being in it she had overstepped her own ground rules, as twisted as they already were. A few days later she wrote, "before I got quite so emotionally involved (which probably negates all hope of me being able to have an unbiased opinion), I knew that you were an outstanding lover. For a moment today, I actually wondered why I had bothered with the whole search for intimate one night stands. That's really unlike me because I've never regretted any decision to be physically intimate with anyone. But, the problem is more about you. Sort of like how a tricycle is really cool until you ride a bike." The cognitive dissonance resolution at this point was her unquestioning belief that she would never get caught, so she wasn't really hurting me. She probably thought it was helping our marriage because without it she would have felt the need to leave. I told her later that that would have been preferable - at least it would have been honest - and she reluctantly agrees, and regrets not leaving first. Of course, the fact that she wrote even later than this that she had no intention of leaving me and wondered why she ever would sort of contradicts her viewpoint today. Nothing like her written word to snap her reality back in place a bit.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

*cough* She's been cheating for years!

*cough* DNA your kids!


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Mad SAHD said:


> Ah, but you see, the thing is, I do have those things


So you are admitting that you are bugging her office and phones and that you have full knowledge of everything she is doing and can guarantee that she has no extra email accounts, burner phones, etc? 

I call BS on that. It is too easy to claim this on the faceless internet, but if you were a true expert you would know better than to bug someone that has client privileges to defend unless you have special clearances that allow you to do such, and yoyo wouldn't go near a business that you are not contracted to defend without that clearance as well, and the need as you must show need to do these things as well. 

I am pretty savvy and can read people pretty well myself, but I would not be able to guarantee that my WW didn't by a burner phone or have one sent to her by her AP. Also, how do you know that she is not playing you to let you see what she wants you to see. She argues and defends points for a living, so why would she be so shallow as to be read so easily?? Not buying it, but continue to believe that you are in charge while she has been sneaking around and cheating on you for years with you none the wiser until now. That alone shows how little control of the situation you actually have (unless you just want to being the drama into your household and are excited/ turned on by it?)!


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> *cough* She's been cheating for years!
> 
> *cough* DNA your kids!


*cough* No need, as he is an expert that knows everything about her and the situation *cough*


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Honestly it's not even worthwhile to question his credentials. I am, however, beginning to wonder about whether or not he has cuckold/hotwife fantasies.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Honestly it's not even worthwhile to question his credentials. I am, however, beginning to wonder about whether or not he has cuckold/hotwife fantasies.


I referred to this in my post but despise the term cuckold so I was remiss to use it, but thought the same.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> So you are admitting that you are bugging her office and phones and that you have full knowledge of everything she is doing and can guarantee that she has no extra email accounts, burner phones, etc?
> 
> I call BS on that. It is too easy to claim this on the faceless internet, but if you were a true expert you would know better than to bug someone that has client privileges to defend unless you have special clearances that allow you to do such, and yoyo wouldn't go near a business that you are not contracted to defend without that clearance as well, and the need as you must show need to do these things as well.


I'm not admitting to anything, but as her husband I am allowed access to privileged info for state cases. I have thought about this with respect to exposing the affair. I actually went through and redacted the messages to remove any discussion of a client or other other attorneys.



Squeakr said:


> I am pretty savvy and can read people pretty well myself, but I would not be able to guarantee that my WW didn't by a burner phone or have one sent to her by her AP. Also, how do you know that she is not playing you to let you see what she wants you to see. She argues and defends points for a living, so why would she be so shallow as to be read so easily?? Not buying it, but continue to believe that you are in charge while she has been sneaking around and cheating on you for years with you none the wiser until now. That alone shows how little control of the situation you actually have (unless you just want to being the drama into your household and are excited/ turned on by it?)!


I'm definitely not into that whole hotwifing/cuckolding thing. I have no idea if she is, but I'm certainly not playing along.

And no, I don't believe she's been cheating for years. Sorry, but unless I get SOME evidence of this (or admission of it) I'm limiting myself to the last year. As I mentioned earlier, before March she really didn't hide anything from me, so if there was something she was doing behind my back, it would have to have been done with no electronic communication. If she was so adept at hiding her tracks before, why would she suddenly become so sloppy now? Her opportunity for ONS's has always been limited to her out of town trips, which have historically been few and far between, and mostly did NOT involve any local counsel or co-counsel.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

OK... So, again, what do you want to do?

Holy geez this has been like reading an episode of "Frasier". LOL, is your wife's name "Lilith"? :rofl:


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

I'm sorry OP, but from what you've written so far, I think that your WS is long gone and has been for some time.

Even if she did decide to R, it would more than likely be only to buy some time. It wouldn't be long before she was gone again.

He affair may be on hold, but once you, or her file, she'll be picking out new sexy panties for their next rendezvous.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> OK... So, again, what do you want to do?
> 
> Holy geez this has been like reading an episode of "Frasier". LOL, is your wife's name "Lilith"? :rofl:


YES!

The texwriter of Fraser must have a field day here!

MAD, you are unbelievable in your Cognitive Dissonance questions and then displaying how exactly that works by not reacting to the many posters that give you concrete advice.


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## cool12 (Nov 17, 2013)

how awful does your cheating wife have to treat you before there's no chance of R?

is there even a line for you?

how little does she have to do for you to get back together with her by blaming this all on your depression and whatever flimsy excuse she gives you to justify her disgusting behavior?

have you always spoiled this woman like this? she has a built in babysitter that contributes to the family finances and she gets to have ONSs. wow.


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## cool12 (Nov 17, 2013)

Mad SAHD said:


> Her opportunity for ONS's has always been limited to her out of town trips.



ha! why the hell are you telling yourself this lie? the N in one night stand does not have to literally mean night. 
people meet and have adulterous sex all damn day long. can't get away after work? meet at lunch. lunch time is too busy, leave a few hours early and grab a quickie on the way home. some even screw in parking lots at work!

maybe you know all there is to know but there's a great chance you don't. cheaters in the fog will take huge risks to get their fix and many of these encounters leave no electronic trace.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

cool12 said:


> ha! why the hell are you telling yourself this lie? the N in one night stand does not have to literally mean night.
> people meet and have adulterous sex all damn day long. can't get away after work? meet at lunch. lunch time is too busy, leave a few hours early and grab a quickie on the way home. some even screw in parking lots at work!
> 
> maybe you know all there is to know but there's a great chance you don't. cheaters in the fog will take huge risks to get their fix and many of these encounters leave no electronic trace.


I do know. She was also limited by her working from her home office during the day until a bit over a year ago. She was working from her home office (telecommuting) for the previous 5 years before that.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> OK... So, again, what do you want to do?





GusPolinski said:


> OK... So, again, what do you want to do?





GusPolinski said:


> OK... So, again, what do you want to do?





GusPolinski said:


> OK... So, again, what do you want to do?





GusPolinski said:


> OK... So, again, what do you want to do?


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## cool12 (Nov 17, 2013)

Mad SAHD said:


> I do know. She was also limited by her working from her home office during the day until a bit over a year ago. She was working from her home office (telecommuting) for the previous 5 years before that.




so you knew when she was cheating on you? like when it was happening?

she's deceived you before without your knowledge yet you know her every move. 

what do you want from the people here? you seem to have all the answers you need.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

I think some of y'all are going a bit overboard on the "serial cheater" and "she's been cheating for years!" memes. I honestly don't think she was cheating on me for years, for the reason mentioned in the previous post: prior to a little over a year ago, she worked from home, telecommuting at first, then working from home as a solo attorney. Her opportunities for ONS's were very small. When she did travel, up until 3 years ago she traveled with her father, who she worked for. Then for a couple of years she worked on starting her own firm from home and had no reason to travel. If her goal has been ONS's, as it appears to be, then she really didn't have any chances to do that. She could, of course, have been having an online EA, but considering her opinions about her A as told to her AP, an EA had never really appealed or even occurred to her prior to her PA; it had to start with the physical/sexual intimacy first.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mad SAHD said:


> I do know. She was also limited by her working from her home office during the day until a bit over a year ago. She was working from her home office (telecommuting) for the previous 5 years before that.


Stargazer told us the same thing - her H couldn't possibly be cheating, as he works from home and she's with him every day. Unfortunately, he's been cheating online since last August.


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## cool12 (Nov 17, 2013)

so what do you call someone that has cheated more than once?

whatever that is, that's your wife


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

I think your question has been answered by a few people. You need to file for divorce now. And you should have already exposed to OM wife, your family and hers. That should have been done.

And I'm not sure who it was who told you to contact the OM to threaten to tell his wife unless he backs off but that's bad advice. You don't give the OM time to get his story straight with his wife and beat you to the punch. You just tell the wife period, you don't tell your wife or the OM you're doing it.

I have to agree with what I'm hearing from everyone else. You're getting good advice from people who have been through what you've been through, not to mention the hundreds of stories here similar to yours, and they know what works and what doesn't. What _you're_ doing does not work. Your wife has no respect for you and you've done absolutely nothing to get it back. 

Like others have said you need to read Married Man Sex Primer and No More Mr. Nice Guy. Also look up "the 180" and implement it.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

Jeez, impatient much? 

Just to cut the suspense, I certainly plan on exposing the A to the AP's BS, ASAP (BTW, all these acronyms are a PITA) I'm trying to decide on the best method of initial contact. Most people on this board talk about cold calling the AP's BS. Personally, I would prefer contacting her in writing, accompanied with a couple select pieces of evidence that would best convince her that I'm serious, that the evidence is undoubtedly about her husband, and that the A was as serious as a combined EA/PA can be. In my case that can be done in two documents, neither of which reveal any work-related info at all.

Is there some downside to making the initial contact in writing as opposed to by phone?


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## cool12 (Nov 17, 2013)

if you speak to her you'll know for sure she got the info.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

You'd be wise to expose by a combination of different means...

Certified letter
Facebook message
E-mail
Phone call

Also, do them all at once. Send the certified letter, wait a couple of days, then start w/ the rest. Her husband may be able to intercept one or two of your attempts, but it's not very likely that he'll be able to intercept all of them.

Does she work outside the home? If so, send the letter to her at work, call her at work, send e-mail to work e-mail address, etc. This will further lessen the chance that her husband is able to intercept anything.

Now, about _your_ marriage... What do you want?


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Mad SAHD said:


> I think some of y'all are going a bit overboard on the "serial cheater" and "she's been cheating for years!" memes. I honestly don't think she was cheating on me for years, for the reason mentioned in the previous post: prior to a little over a year ago, she worked from home, telecommuting at first, then *working from home as a solo attorney.* Her opportunities for ONS's were very small. When she did travel, up until 3 years ago she traveled with her father, who she worked for. Then for a couple of years she worked on starting her own firm from home and had no reason to travel. If her goal has been ONS's, as it appears to be, then she really didn't have any chances to do that. She could, of course, have been having an online EA, but considering her opinions about her A as told to her AP, an EA had never really appealed or even occurred to her prior to her PA; it had to start with the physical/sexual intimacy first.


How does a solo attorney working from home get clients? Do she leave the house to meet clients? If so, how do you know they were actually clients?

Does she go to the client's location, say, to discuss the case? Do paperwork, signature, etc?

Did she ever leave the home to pick up materials, cheques, etc?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Mad SAHD said:


> Jeez, impatient much?
> 
> Just to cut the suspense, I certainly plan on exposing the A to the AP's BS, ASAP (BTW, all these acronyms are a PITA) I'm trying to decide on the best method of initial contact. Most people on this board talk about cold calling the AP's BS. Personally, I would prefer contacting her in writing, accompanied with a couple select pieces of evidence that would best convince her that I'm serious, that the evidence is undoubtedly about her husband, and that the A was as serious as a combined EA/PA can be. In my case that can be done in two documents, neither of which reveal any work-related info at all.
> 
> Is there some downside to making the initial contact in writing as opposed to by phone?


Many people that use writing have that intercepted by the AP. He knows you know, he is well aware you may contact his wife. Many APs have answered such contacts as the Posom's wife. You need to KNOW you have contacted the right person.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Just grinding wrote this

*You’re Sorry? 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For what? For getting caught? For failing as a wife and mother? For hurting me? Yourself? Letting down everyone who has a stake in our marriage? It’s never really been clear to me why you’re sorry. If I understood you and your actions, this thing might be easier for us both.

If you’re sorry for what you did to me, you can let it go. I’m well beyond the worst of the pain and long ago accepted the fact that a person like me can never really understand why you engaged in an extended adulterous relationship and an even more extended period of cover-ups.

Yes, it’s true that I was emotionally crippled by your infidelity, and was continually and effectively beat-down by your lying and gaslighting, but I’m a tough man. Much tougher than you. You only have the power to destroy me if I give you that power, and I hereby officially revoke your privileges. I’m back on my feet, much stronger and much wiser.

Now that the pain has subsided, ration and logic prevail. With the veil of love and intimacy -- through which I viewed and idealized you – rent asunder, your true nature and character are revealed to me. I no longer deceive myself. I no longer believe what my heart wants to believe, but believe what I see; I believe the evidence. This does not bode well for you.

For so many years, even when things were tough between us, I considered you easily within the top 5th percentile of women. Truly, that was a function of me being gravely deceived by my heart. Now that ration prevails, let’s do the calculations, shall we?

Channeling the various experts, generally accepted statistics show that 60% of marriages are affected by infidelity. Out of that 60%, approximately 65% of the offenders are men, and 35% are women. So, calculating that back out into the general population, you are already solidly in the lower 25th percentile.

Out of that lower 25th percentile, I can speculate that few would’ve gone to the extent of lying, deceiving, and gaslighting to which you stooped. As your secrets unraveled around you, I sometimes marveled as just how stupid you sounded, and was astounded that you expected me to believe your outrageous drivel. No, I can’t help but believe that a goodly number of the lower 25th percentile would’ve understood when the gig was up, and would’ve come clean long before creating a circus for the sole purpose of acting the chief clown, as you did.

By my calculations, the woman my heart thought was a top five-percenter turned out to easily reside in the realm of the lower 10th percentile.

Caveat emptor, indeed.

How could you treat me with such contempt? How could you think me so stupid as to accept your lies? How could you risk your financial well-being, the respect of your children, your health, your employment, your reputation, everything that we built together over 25 years? 

I think I know. Contrary to my earlier contention, I guess I do understand you: it’s called projection.

You thought me gullible, yet you were the one to drop your panties to the first little piggy that blew a few kind words under your skirt.

You thought me desperate, yet you’re the one who left no lie untold in order to remain in our home.

You thought me ignorant, yet you followed the script of every other adulterous woman, shining the spotlight of shame so brightly on yourself that the Three Wise Men themselves couldn’t have helped but follow the trail.

You thought me manipulative, yet you carefully orchestrated an environment where I continued to support you materially while you secretly fed my treasure to another.

You thought me weak. You thought me vindictive. You thought me needy. You thought me controlling. You thought me immoral. You thought me dishonest. You thought me uncaring. You thought me an unfit parent.

I was simply your mirror. You looked at me, but you saw yourself. You hated what you saw, so you set out to destroy it.

And so you did.

You thought me a cold, callous man. In this one instance, you were correct – as you now find. 
*


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

_Just Let Them Go

The end result?

The end result is to respect yourself in the end,
let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.

That is the end result.

The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.

Seriously, the quickest way to get them back.

Nothing else works better or quicker.

Let them go.

Agree with them and their feelings,
"you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye"

Wouldn't that be true love?

If you really loved your spouse,
and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with,
wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them?

Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it?
Just let them go. Give them their freedom.

You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved.

I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage sucks and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person.

But cheating, no excuses.

Think about cheating.
A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense?

Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing.

Fighting the affair? For what reason?
To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse?
What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse?
They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process.

And for your last point,
The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this.

"Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."

You give them what they want.
You don't fight them on this issue.
You agree with their feelings,
they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person.

You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner.

You can't say "don't love them, love me instead",
you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them",
you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me"

I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back.

You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you.

Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them. 
_


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

aug said:


> How does a solo attorney working from home get clients?


Good experience, lots of referrals, a good webpage, and SEO, especially on Google.



aug said:


> Do she leave the house to meet clients? If so, how do you know they were actually clients?


Most of her clients came to her online. Generally she met with her clients online or by phone, unless a case was going to trial. Then she'd meet them in person extensively. Most of her cases didn't go to trial (as is the norm). How did I know her clients were actually clients? Well, there was all the court documents and filings with the client's name on them, her talking to me about their cases, etc.



aug said:


> Does she go to the client's location, say, to discuss the case? Do paperwork, signature, etc?
> 
> Did she ever leave the home to pick up materials, cheques, etc?


She met clients either at the courthouse or at an office across the street that she paid monthly for conference room time there. In either case she'd only be meeting them for a ouple of hours. Signatures & paperwork were done by e-fax or courier. Checks came in the mail, and she deposited checks via the drive-thru teller at her bank. 

There was only a 2 times she had to go to the client's location, and both of those times, her client was female (and crazy and/or on drugs). Really, none of her clients that she dealt with in person would have appealed to her - of that I'm certain - and it would be a gross ethics violation on top of that. She had 4 co-counsels during this time - one was a 60+ year old friend of her father's another was a 70 year old former judge, and the other two were female.

OK?

Can we give the whole "she's been cheating for years" thing a rest? I find it highly improbable at best. Anyways, what does it really matter anyways? What I know she has done, what she has admitted to doing, is bad enough on its own that quibbling about possible earlier ONS's is not really going to change the outcome of our relationship either way, at this point. The betrayal I know about is about as bad as it gets.


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## cool12 (Nov 17, 2013)

i understand you have all the info you need. and like most BSs you believe you know all there is to know. she successfully deceived you without you realizing it but now you know it all. 

got it. 

let us know how the exposure goes.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Some facts that we have learned the hard way:

Cheaters are liars.

The extent of the affair(s) is always greater than the cheater lets on. (see above)

Most cheaters cannot quit their affairs cold turkey. There is an emotional connection there that cannot be easily severed. Even if they did try their best to go no contact, they basically go into mourning, as though their affair partner had died.

A marriage cannot magically return to the way it was before the affair began, or was discovered. The cheater has revealed some true colours and has to be genuine about wanting to change them. The betrayed spouse now has huge trust and self-esteem issues to deal with.

There is a natural progression to post-affair life, just as there is a progression to affairs. Since you seem psychologically knowledgeable, you will see that it follows the stages of grief.

Denial - the discovery of the affair. Before the proof is irrefutable, there's a lot of "this can't be right." and after the proof is laid out, it turns into "I can't believe this is happening!"

Anger - lots of confrontation, now it's "how could you do this to our marriage" sort of thinking. There can even be renewed hot passionate sex at this stage.

Bargaining - trying to persuade the cheater to drop the affair partner and return to the marriage. "We can work it out" "I'll forgive you," etc. The cheater may even seem to agree, but usually the affair has gone more underground and they are more clever about their lies. Or they might have genuinely cut off contact, but instead of working on the marriage, they are busy mourning the loss of the affair.

Depression - figuring out that the cheater hasn't changed after all. Or if they actually have changed and been genuine in their reconciliation, this is the realization by the betrayed spouse that there is still mistrust and lots of work to go, that the marriage won't magically return to how it was before.

Acceptance - this is usually moving on after divorce, when the betrayed spouse figures out that they are better off alone than with a lying, manipulative person capable of cheating. Rarely, reconciliation works, and both spouses work hard to forge ahead in marriage.

People here are just trying to jump you ahead a few stages and save you a lot of the pain they experienced and see you repeating, but really, it's something you need to get through on your own. You seem to be near the beginning still and you have a long road ahead of you.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> Many people that use writing have that intercepted by the AP. He knows you know, he is well aware you may contact his wife. Many APs have answered such contacts as the Posom's wife. You need to KNOW you have contacted the right person.


So would Fedexing something to her (signature required), plus mailing a certified letter to her, and then also sending her a message on Facebook work? Would you then recommend trying to call her on top of all this, or give her my phone #'s and let her call me first? I don't want to go overboard and scare her, but I want to make sure she gets and understands my message.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Mad SAHD said:


> So would Fedexing something to her (signature required), plus mailing a certified letter to her, and then also sending her a message on Facebook work? Would you then recommend trying to call her on top of all this, or give her my phone #'s and let her call me first? I don't want to go overboard and scare her, but I want to make sure she gets and understands my message.


Just call. Don't over-complicate this.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Mad SAHD said:


> Jeez, impatient much?
> 
> Just to cut the suspense, I certainly plan on exposing the A to the AP's BS, ASAP (BTW, all these acronyms are a PITA) I'm trying to decide on the best method of initial contact. Most people on this board talk about cold calling the AP's BS. Personally, I would prefer contacting her in writing, accompanied with a couple select pieces of evidence that would best convince her that I'm serious, that the evidence is undoubtedly about her husband, and that the A was as serious as a combined EA/PA can be. In my case that can be done in two documents, neither of which reveal any work-related info at all.
> 
> Is there some downside to making the initial contact in writing as opposed to by phone?


I don't think there is a downside. But simply mailing the material may not work, especially if the husband goes through the mail. And once he does intercept material, you can expect that your wife and he will concoct a story to tell his wife about how nuts you are.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Mad SAHD said:


> I think some of y'all are going a bit overboard on the "serial cheater" and "she's been cheating for years!" memes. I honestly don't think she was cheating on me for years, for the reason mentioned in the previous post: prior to a little over a year ago, she worked from home, telecommuting at first, then working from home as a solo attorney. Her opportunities for ONS's were very small. When she did travel, up until 3 years ago she traveled with her father, who she worked for. Then for a couple of years she worked on starting her own firm from home and had no reason to travel. If her goal has been ONS's, as it appears to be, then she really didn't have any chances to do that. She could, of course, have been having an online EA, but considering her opinions about her A as told to her AP, an EA had never really appealed or even occurred to her prior to her PA; it had to start with the physical/sexual intimacy first.


Folks here are good, but sometimes they do get carried away. It is, in fact, often the case that there is more to an affair than meets the eye. So you will just have to ignore some of the posts here -- unless they are right, of course.

But the rest of the advice you have been given is straight up even if seemingly counterproductive. If your wife, the WW, has not filed for divorce, it means that the marriage is useful to her in some way. By filing for divorce you are serving notice that the affair is not risk free for her and that she is risking losing something that is of some value to her.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> Folks here are good, but sometimes they do get carried away.


Yes, but in this case I utterly disagree with you. His own words:



> My wife of 9 years and 3 children had an affair starting with a one night stand at the beginning of March, 2014,


9 years.


> The first ONS was with a guy she never talked to again.


+1 


> The second one was with the guy who wouold become the AP/OM. She says she went looking for a ONS because she felt she needed reaffirmation of herself as a woman, and to experience sexual and emotional intimacy without the pressure and sadness she associated with me.


+1



> She did mention that she had been tempted about 9 months prior, but it hadn't worked out. I actually tend to believe that's the extent of it.


For me, this is +1.


> Since you've been in my life,
> *I stopped with the condom purchases on trips* and* trying to figure out if I should sleep with every co-counsel.*


We have no context it can be a joke, but her past actions do not back up this assertion. Still, she WAS purchasing condoms for trips....... Just saying.....


That's two full on affairs, an unknown joke or truth, a missed opportunity and an admission of condom purchases for trips. All during a 9 year marriage. Now he has every right to feel insulted, maybe it could be presented in a nicer fashion, but saying she is a serial cheater is not posters "getting carried away."


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, but in this case I utterly disagree with you. His own words:
> 
> 9 years.
> 
> ...


The way it was written out, sounded like she was always on the hunt, particularly for co counsels. The serial cheating looks obvious from what you have described.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> 9 years.
> 
> That's two full on affairs, an unknown joke or truth, a missed opportunity and an admission of condom purchases for trips. All during a 9 year marriage. Now he has every right to feel insulted, maybe it could be presented in a nicer fashion, but saying she is a serial cheater is not posters "getting carried away."


Maybe there's some confusion about what I meant. There was, in total, 2 different men that she slept with. The first was a ONS (no sex, but a ONS by any reasonable definition, including my WW's). Then there was another ONS the next night, with her future AP. She planned that to be just a ONS too, but she decided to go further with him and stayed in contact. Their relationship soon developed into a long distance, online EA, and into a full-blown PA 2 weeks later.

When you say "2 full on affairs" do you mean you consider that first ONS a full on affair? I guess I would think full-on affair would mean an ongoing relationship, not a ONS. Am I not understanding what you are referring to?

The condom purchases (plural) that I know she made were 1) prior to her first ONS, and 2) before a 2 part trip 6 weeks later, first to go to a hearing with a local counsel that she might have had another ONS with if she weren't so into her PA already (which she referred to in a message I quoted earlier), followed by a 3 day stop in another city for witness interviews with her co-counsel/AP (and 3 nights with said AP/co-counsel).

If this is the extent of her cheating (which is, I admit, not certain, but which I consider likely at this point), you can certainly say she has been a serial cheater, technically, but a ONS the night before she started her affair is kind of a weak example of serial infidelity. 

She admits that after the first ONS, she then anticipated having future ONS's (in her words "3 or 4 times a year", ostensibly until I was "well" again). So she planned on becoming a serial cheater. However, her 2nd ONS became this all consuming EA/PA instead, which clearly changed her (hence her surprise at her aversion to the ONS's she had originally wanted) Then she was caught 2 months later. So it's fair to say she planned to be a serial cheater, but she also planned all the cheating to be occasional ONS's. Instead she had one ONS and then one serious, uncontrolled EA/PA. I'm not certain it's fair to say she had 2 full-on affairs, rather than one ONS and one full-on affair, unless your definition of full on affair includes a ONS.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

You've spent quite a lot of time discussing _what you believe to have been_ your wife's plans. _What are *your* plans?_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

I have a feeling that the thread is focused on the minor stuff while ignoring the elephant


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

BetrayedDad said:


> Cognitive Dissonance.... good phrase. Going to use that in the future.
> 
> Your wife is completely gone. GTFO while you still have an ounce of dignity. She's LONG checked out off your relationship and the ho didn't even have the decency to tell you. Sorry to offend you but your wife is a selfish POS. Let's take a closer look why:
> 
> ...


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

OP, your semi knowledge about cognitive dissonance has put you in state of analysis paralysis.

The one in fog is you. The BS's fog has another name: Denial


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

warlock07 said:


> I have a feeling that the thread is focused on the minor stuff while ignoring the elephant


Honestly the only thing that I see OP getting angry over is that anyone here would dare to question either his investigative methods or the conclusions that he's been able to draw from them. Between that and all the time that he's spent ruminating on the nature of his wife's infidelities and (heavily scripted) thought processes, it seems like all he's trying to do is to convince everyone here that what now lays before him is somehow "unique".

If there is anything "unique" about what I've read thus far, it would be all the time that OP's WW spent "grooming" him for the idea that infidelity (on her part) was inevitable *and* that, because he wasn't/isn't "good enough" for her, when (not if) it did happen, he would have deserved it, invited it upon himself, etc.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

warlock07 said:


> OP, your semi knowledge about cognitive dissonance has put you in state of *analysis paralysis*.
> 
> The one in fog is you. The BS's fog has another name: Denial


Good point. I'd heard the phrase before but couldn't quite recall it.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Mad SAHD said:


> Maybe there's some confusion about what I meant. There was, in total, 2 different men that she slept with. The first was a ONS (no sex, but a ONS by any reasonable definition, including my WW's). Then there was another ONS the next night, with her future AP. She planned that to be just a ONS too, but she decided to go further with him and stayed in contact. Their relationship soon developed into a long distance, online EA, and into a full-blown PA 2 weeks later.
> 
> When you say "2 full on affairs" do you mean you consider that first ONS a full on affair? I guess I would think full-on affair would mean an ongoing relationship, not a ONS. Am I not understanding what you are referring to?
> 
> ...


Has anybody ever heard of cognitive delusion?

Or maybe Mad has just invented it

Mad please for the love of god ……do right by yourself and children.

55


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Mad SAHD said:


> Maybe there's some confusion about what I meant. There was, in total, 2 different men that she slept with. The first was a ONS (no sex, but a ONS by any reasonable definition, including my WW's). Then there was another ONS the next night, with her future AP. She planned that to be just a ONS too, but she decided to go further with him and stayed in contact. Their relationship soon developed into a long distance, online EA, and into a full-blown PA 2 weeks later.
> 
> When you say "2 full on affairs" do you mean you consider that first ONS a full on affair? I guess I would think full-on affair would mean an ongoing relationship, not a ONS. Am I not understanding what you are referring to?
> 
> ...


She fvcked 2 other men and intended to fvck more. She's a serial cheater. You can deny it all you want,parse words all you want, armchair lawyer it all you want, do whatever you want, but she's a serial cheater. Kick her ass to the curb, she's not worth keeping.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I was going to do an appeal to authority, explain the logical fallacies you are using and engage in a semantics based argument with quotation dissection. Instead, I'll leave you with three things:

1) That post doesn't weaken the serial cheater argument it makes it stronger.

Affair - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
2) Affair:


> a secret *sexual* relationship between two people


2a) Affaire:


> a romantic or passionate attachment *typically of limited duration *: liaison 2b


So, yes, I consider a one night stand a "full on" affair because it is sexual. I only parse an emotional affair (not full on) from a physical affair (full on). No, saying she "slept" with two people and then trying to say "well one wasn't sexual" doesn't fly with me.

3)Serial:
Serial - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


> performing a series of similar acts over a period of time


 Yes, I call that a serial cheater. Just like there are murderers labeled as "serial killers" with only two deaths. It's the acts, when they are discovered, that get them labeled not just the two murders.Your wife has repeatedly done things to cheat. She was successful twice, had a no start once, traveled repeatedly with condoms WHILE MARRIED and now you have added she ADMITTED she wanted more ONSs. Now you can keep defending her, telling me I'm wrong, my definitions aren't correct and say her actions make her a "weak" serial cheater. That's cool, just like I can say she looks like one to me. You need advice not a semantics based bicker session. So, I'm not going to derail or argue with you anymore on this subject. Just know you and I disagree.


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## Turin74 (Apr 11, 2014)

Come on people, those of you who criticize the OP's stance on this obviously fail to comprehend the big picture. There are so many priority 1 things that need to be discussed asap - for instance, should all written comms be posted using fedex or usps (note the issue of proof of delivery does require a separate steam of analysis), what duration of sexual encounter is considered ONS vs a quickie, and what brand of condoms did WW plan on purchasing. 

Anything else (like to D or not to D) is immaterial.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

This is why I am not discussing Divorce or not


badmemory said:


> You state that so matter of factly; as if her prior affairs were "less" serious? As if they didn't matter as much?


Reconciliation drips from his every word. Badmemeory caught this early in the thread. You can't discuss this with someone in their own fog. Everything he has done since has been to minimize her actions.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> This is why I am not discussing Divorce or not
> Reconciliation drips from his every word. Badmemeory caught this early in the thread. You can't discuss this with someone in their own fog. Everything he has done since has been to minimize her actions.


It was kind of obvious through what the OP has posted so far, that he would R in a heart beat if given the offer.

I can understand and relate to him wanting to R. But as I'm on the outside, looking in, I see the bigger picture. So I know this won't be happening, or at least not for long.

He's already been replaced. Even if this OM were to disappear Tomorrow, she probably wouldn't return to him. If she did, it wouldn't be for long.

He has some valid reasons for holding off on exposure. I have to wonder if the main reason is that he's still holding out hope that she'll come out of the "fog" and back to him.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Are we being too harsh on this guy ? He is a pretty new BS, totally lost and trying to make sense of his messed up situation. he is still in 'save my family mode' like many BS.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> It was kind of obvious through what the OP has posted so far, that he would R in a heart beat if given the offer.


Umm, no. We're so far from R at this point it's hard to envision how such a scenario could happen. Right now were separating and going to counseling strictly to try and make that separation as smooth and conflict-free as possible for our kids' sake. Right now my WS won't even talk about the issues surrounding and resulting from the A. She wants to minimize in-person interaction because it just causes "emotional stress" for her (gee, I wonder why?). She said yesterday that we should agree to a fixed length for the separation, after which we can reevaluate at that point if we can be around each other without hostility, and then maybe we could reexamine trying marital counseling that actually addresses the underlying issues and talks about her A.

For me, no R is remotely possible until she convincingly expresses real remorse to me, is willling to do whatever it takes to help restore trust in our relationship, and actually convinces me that she loves me. To date none of this is happening at all.

I know that she is meeting next week with a divorce attorney who was recommended by our former MC, although she hasn't bothered to tell me about this meeting yet. I'm in contact with one as well, although I've neglected to tell her about that either. 

So no, I'm not ready to R, or accept an offer for R from her. A better question is whether she's ready to file for D, or accept without contest my filing for D listing her adultery as the justification for the D.

My questions in this thread have to do with her attitude and state of mind at this point. Her complete lack of remorse or interest in doing anything to reestablish trust - her frankly sociopathic new personality - seems so out of character for her that I just wonder if it is sustainable or even permanent. Personally I think it's all a defensive coping mechanism for her, and at this point she's frankly being an emotional coward with respect to our relationship; she'd rather play the part of the heartless ***** and run away than face her pain or mine.



GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> I can understand and relate to him wanting to R. But as I'm on the outside, looking in, I see the bigger picture. So I know this won't be happening, or at least not for long.
> 
> He's already been replaced. Even if this OM were to disappear Tomorrow, she probably wouldn't return to him. If she did, it wouldn't be for long.


I'm not worried about the OM. She likely is done with him - for now. He seems much more despondent than she does. This does mean, though, that he will be looking for future opportunities - hence the imminent need for exposure to the OMW.

We're having our first MC session with our new counselor tomorrow, so I'm not going to do anything major until after that meeting, but don't worry, I'm not losing my resolve to expose or anything.



GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> He has some valid reasons for holding off on exposure. I have to wonder if the main reason is that he's still holding out hope that she'll come out of the "fog" and back to him.


As I said, I do really wonder about this, and what the time frame is. I don't think whether or when it happens will affect the improbability of R happening at some point. Just wondering what's going on in her screwed up pretty little head.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Now we're getting somewhere! IMO you should immediately file citing adultery -- that might wake her up.


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## timedoesnothealall (Sep 15, 2013)

>She likely is done with him - for now.

By the sound of things (and per the list of grief stages) she's either moving towards or already in the mourning phase. Once the jig is up post-Dday, it's a logical place for her to be. 

It is not enjoyable to sense her pining for the loss of OM. In my case, this phase had a very long run. My point: Don't expect too much from MC right now. The first session is always the "getting to know you" and "fact gathering" prelude on the part of your counselor. Once those preliminaries are out of the way, you'll probably notice that forward progress is going to be severely stunted so long as any of her heartstrings are tethered to OM.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Okay, good stuff. More action and a " little less" analyzing.

Two things however. I don't know why you'd want to continue to go to counseling with her and I don't know why you'd even consider a trial separation.

To her, a trial separation is her freedom to explore this or other OM's, unabated; leaving you as the dreaded plan B. 

And what's in it for you? Nothing. 

Counseling? When she shows no remorse? No. To plan your separation? Do you really need a counselor for that? No. You need an attorney. To her, your agreement to go to counseling just reinforces her notion that you're willing to negotiate around her lack of remorse.

She either demonstrates remorse or she doesn't. If she doesn't, you need to take decisive and immediate action - which doesn't include counseling or trial separations.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

badmemory said:


> Okay, good stuff. More action and a " little less" analyzing.
> 
> Two things however. I don't know why you'd want to continue to go to counseling with her and I don't know why you'd even consider a trial separation.
> 
> ...


I think your wrong about the counseling. If, without assistance, we aren't able to keep our hostility from showing itself in front of our kids or interfering in our ability to cooperatively coordinate child care, then counseling is exactly what we need. 

Adding attorneys under those circumstances would likely make the situation even worse.

As to the trial separation, I agree that I don't get much out of it at all, and I've told my WW as much. I'd never agree to an indefinite trial separation or co-habitation arrangement either - that's just negotiated limbo, as far as I'm concerned. 

Exposing the A to the OMW should help prevent further encounters with the OM (who is, I remind you, living 1500 or so miles away). As my WW and I would be living under the same roof (but different BR's), no dating or other relationships would be tolerated or likely to happen at home, considering my surveillance (which will continue as long as she does nothing to restore trust) - so not exactly unabated. Any trial separation, as far as I'm concerned, would have to be limited to no more than a couple of months for me to agree to it.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Mad are you doing the 180? Are you eating healthy foods, exercising and taking care of yourself?

Working out, going out by yourself a few nights a week, buying yourself a nice new wardrobe: all of those things will boost your damaged self esteem and make you feel better about yourself and the situation you are in. Tell her you will be taking one evening off each weekend and one evening off in the middle of the week to go out and do things you enjoy. She can stay home with the kids those nights. Tell her, don't ask.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Mad SAHD said:


> *As my WW and I would be living under the same roof *(but different BR's), no dating or other relationships would be tolerated or likely to happen at home, considering my surveillance (which will continue as long as she does nothing to restore trust) - so not exactly unabated. Any trial separation, as far as I'm concerned, would have to be limited to no more than a couple of months for me to agree to it.


Well, when you said separation, living under the same roof wasn't my notion of that. But you said it better than I did. It's at best, "negotiated limbo".

It appears to me that you want to give her more time to come to her senses (to demonstrate remorse) and I think that's just a bad strategy. She doesn't need more time; she needs a decisive wake-up call.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> Are we being too harsh on this guy ? He is a pretty new BS, totally lost and trying to make sense of his messed up situation. he is still in 'save my family mode' like many BS.


 They have been to two counselors and are working on finding a third. That's not ""pretty new" to me. Honestly, I see a ton of manipulation going on from the wife. They had a good counselor, who was holding her accountable, his wife quit when she had to accept blame. Then she promptly found one that has him blaming himself, blaming his depression and suppressing his desires for a good marriage. To me, the counselor and his wife have set his thinking in preserve the family. I mean she gave HIM an ultimatum and SHE cheated.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

badmemory said:


> Well, when you said separation, living under the same roof wasn't my notion of that. But you said it better than I did. It's at best, "negotiated limbo".
> 
> It appears to me that you want to give her more time to come to her senses (to demonstrate remorse) and I think that's just a bad strategy. She doesn't need more time; she needs a decisive wake-up call.


Actually my questions in this thread about my WW are about whether she will ever show remorse, and if her lack of it was caused more by affair fog or more by her subconscious resolution of her cognitive dissonance. I wasn't fishing for some possible time limit on her remorselessness, because I'm unsure if there is such a limit. 

I agree about the wake-up call. Hopefully exposing the affair to the OMW, as well as to her family, will be a wake-up call. Serving her with a D filing would be a wake-up call for sure, but I do want to see what exposure does first.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> They have been to two counselors and are working on finding a third. That's not ""pretty new" to me. Honestly, I see a ton of manipulation going on from the wife. They had a good counselor, who was holding her accountable, his wife quit when she had to accept blame. Then she promptly found one that has him blaming himself, blaming his depression and suppressing his desires for a good marriage. To me, the counselor and his wife have set his thinking in preserve the family. I mean she gave HIM an ultimatum and SHE cheated.


That's why I told that counselor she was incompetent and biased, then found a different counselor.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Mad, she might eventually get to the point where she is able to feel and demonstrate remorse, but you might have to sort of "break" or "shock" her in order to accomplish that. After all, would you rather she show remorse sooner or later? Now or five years from now -- after she's engaged in one failed relationship after another and your family is irrevocably broken?

It's time to knock it off w/ the analysis paralysis (thanks again, warlock) and either "sh*t or get off the pot". After all, would you rather _serve_ or _be served_?

Given her current and complete lack of willingness to take accountability and show remorse for her actions, I'll echo my earlier recommendation to file for divorce citing infidelity. This will either work toward your hopes for reconciliation or it won't. But, if it doesn't, she was already gone anyway, and the worst that you've done is to speed things up.

And, once you've done this, immediately expose the affair to OMW.

You don't get her out of the fog by standing at the edge and waving around a flashlight on its low setting. You crank that f*cker up to high, wade in, find her, and pull her out of that sh*t. And if, once you make your way to her, she tells you to f*ck off, you dump her on her ass and GTFO.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

It's damn hard from the inside.

You are very analytical, you like to fully understand things, you take them apart to see how they work, don't you? Well, you just can't apply that to your marital breakdown. It's broken, and you can't fix it without her full cooperation. You don't have that. You will just have to walk away without closure. There is nothing you can do make your ex-wife 'wake up' and understand what she's done and why, much less explain it to you truthfully. Dealing with lack of closure does get easier over time. Expending considerable energy debating with yourself if she meets the criteria to be a serial cheater as opposed to just a singular cheater is a total waste when you need that energy to be strong for your children and yourself to get through this. Just accept that, for whatever reason, your ex's libido was more important than her integrity, and move on from there.

Hopefully you can find more of a separation counsellor rather than a marriage counsellor, someone who can help you navigate the system without anger and bitterness sending all your money to lawyers. I would look up mediation rather than counselling to accomplish that. Get someone with a family law background.

You do still need to expose the affair though, to your family and friends, to hers, and to the other man's wife. Telling your family and friends will bring you much-needed emotional support, telling HER family and friends will head off any lies she tells them about the nature of separation, and telling the other man's wife is the right thing to do because she deserves to know the truth about her husband.


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## timedoesnothealall (Sep 15, 2013)

Actually my questions in this thread about my WW are about whether she will ever show remorse, and if her *lack of it* was caused more by affair fog or more by her subconscious resolution of her cognitive dissonance. 

It's possible that her lack of remorse is not a matter of (A) fog or (B) subconscious anything.

I'd add *narcissism* as well as *entitlement* to the list of possibilities. *Desire* and *opportunity* might trump all of them! Maybe the catalysts for the affair are also serving to inhibit remorse?


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## Turin74 (Apr 11, 2014)

Mad SAHD said:


> Actually my questions in this thread about my WW are about whether she will ever show remorse, and if her lack of it was caused more by affair fog or more by her subconscious resolution of her cognitive dissonance. I wasn't fishing for some possible time limit on her remorselessness, because I'm unsure if there is such a limit. .



Mad, 

I understand the above was the original scope of your question. And I admit my previous post was somewhat sarcastic. However I'd like to state the following:
I have come across multiple threads on this forum where OP's have set them up for a very long and painful limbo ride. To a degree that the only definition that comes to my mind is associated with a certain household item designated to wipe the mud from one's shoes before entering the premises. The issue is that they all have/are exhibiting certain symptoms (over analysing is being just one of them) which imo are clearly present in your posts. 

I belive that good folks here are just trying to help you to avoid this situation in hope that this time it may actually work

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## timedoesnothealall (Sep 15, 2013)

Over-analysis is my natural tendency as well. I did it while my WW enjoyed an extended fling that could have been extinguished much sooner had I not fallen into "Hamlet syndrome". 

It didn't work for Hamlet; it didn't work for me. It won't work for you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mad SAHD said:


> Actually my questions in this thread about my WW are about whether she will ever show remorse


I don't know her, but I'll stick by my psychological assumption: humans don't learn remorse until they face losing what they had and are forced to question their actions.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

Mad SAHD said:


> Actually my questions in this thread about my WW are about whether she will ever show remorse, and if her lack of it was caused more by affair fog or more by her subconscious resolution of her cognitive dissonance. I wasn't fishing for some possible time limit on her remorselessness, because I'm unsure if there is such a limit.
> 
> I agree about the wake-up call. Hopefully exposing the affair to the OMW, as well as to her family, will be a wake-up call. Serving her with a D filing would be a wake-up call for sure, but I do want to see what exposure does first.



No, she will never show remorse for her affair. 

She's not into you. 

Plain hard truth as I see it.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Mad, time to go sane. Ditch the b*tch.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

Sorry to be out of contact, but things are moving along. Here's an update:

We had our first MC session with the new counselor. She seems a lot more neutral than the last one, and my WW seems okay with her as well. Unfortunately, starting over again with a new counselor necessitates that introductory period of summarizing where we stand and what we want, which took up the entirety of our first session. We're each going to have individual sessions with the counselor in a couple of days. I'm not putting too much hope into MC, but any one would be preferable to the last MC.

So far, trial separation,much as it is, is going smoothly. We're not having any conflicts about or in front of the kids, which was one of the motivations for MC. 

We did have a big argument the night of our first MC session. My WW came in my office and saw on my screen one of her more recent e-mails from the OM, along with a letter I was writing. The e-mail referred to the internal politics of a continuing legal education school and showed how her AP pulled rank and got my WW into a competitive program at the last minute. She got pissed, called me creepy for going through her e-mail (which in this case had been open on her home computer at night when I walked by it a week ago), and said this really just made her want to get separate residences and file for a legal separation. I told her that first of all, there is no such thing as as a legal separation in our state. Secondly, I was feeling similarly and was strongly tempted to file for divorce now, because this separation thing was just negotiated limbo, and that I found limbo to be intolerable to me for any length of time, let alone an indeterminate length of time. As you might expect, this caused her to back off on her threats and hostility. She asked who the letter was to and I said I wouldn't tell her. I did reassure her that it was not to the school, or to any lawyer or legal organization. She then said we shouldn't be having this kind of hostile argument because it just made things worse, and we should save it for counseling. I told her I agreed, but that our next joint MC session, likely 2 weeks away, seemed like forever to wait on issues. I told her that I couldn't stand this limbo thing for long, certainly no more than a month or two, unless I felt it was contributing towards some progress in resolving our relationship. I didn't think her demand for separation was constructive because it was motivated by her desire to avoid me and avoid the emotional stress being near me caused her. I told her I thought her wanting to stay away from me, her professed happiness at minimizing contact, was just her cowardly, fearful response to her emotional stress that she would rather run away from unexamined than face up to, learn to understand, and resolve. I then said that in my opinion, the emotional stress she felt when around me wasn't caused be her perceiving my hostility towards her (at least most of the time) but by her unresolved guilt and/or shame at hurting me. I then said "at least I hope it's that", because if there wasn't any guilt or shame inside her then she'd suddenly become a sociopath. She then said quietly that of course there's guilt. I said that was very reassuring, but I didn't press her on that point. She left my office then and I got back to work. 

An hour later she came back and wanted to talk again, so we relocated to out master BR to keep the kids from hearing. She then said that due to our continuing hostility, maybe we should think about not going on the other's family visit/vacation. I said that first of all, her not going to see my family (in a couple of weeks) was a much bigger deal than seeing her father the following weekend at a resort an hour's drive from home because visiting my family with the kids was an arduous and expensive ordeal with both of us going, but was an epic ordeal with only one parent going. We already paid a lot for her plane ticket, and my family is expecting her to be there. That brought up my second point, which was that if I flew up there with our kids and without her, there was no chance I wouldn't talk about our marital problems with them, including her A, with my parents. She seemed to accept that, but grumbled that all I would mention would be her A, and not her list of complaints about me compiled at just before and just after D-day. She then said that if I did that it would poison my family against hers, just as if when she told her family, they would defend her and hate me. I said that I actually was strongly considering telling her family too, and that if I told my family I would in all likelihood tell her family as well. I then added that she shouldn't be so sure her family would defend her actions. Right now she seems to think that our problems pre-A, or more specifically the things I did which hurt her (though she didn't say so at the time) were at some level equivalent to the betrayal of her A. She actually said that I had betrayed her or betrayed our marriage by not being an equal partner with her due to my depression, and not getting better, or trying to get better, fast enough. I told her that was b.s., that depression wasn't a choice I made, whereas her A, and the deceit and manipulation that accompanied it, were most definitely her choice, when other, more honorable choices were always available. I said that from the outside, few people, aside from other cheating spouses, would sympathize with her view or equivocate anything I did with her adultery. I'm not sure if she believed me, but she didn't argue my point either. 

When I brought up divorce again and me filing first, she said that I must therefore want a contentious divorce. I said of course I didn't want that - that unlike her parents I had no desire to have a custom battle. She said she thought it would be better to have a collaborative divorce, where we use the same attorney. I said that would be cheaper, but I wasn't sure about agreeing on an attorney (I know she is meeting one for an initial consult on Thursday, and she still denies contacting one at all). I didn't mention to her that a collaborative divorce precludes me filing for divorce citing infidelity, which, from what I have read, has no effect on custody (fine by me) but, if proven (and I have proof in spades), can likely affect the division of assets.

She was going out of town the next day, and the issue of trust and surveillance came up. She told me she is convinced that she has no privacy, and that the fact that I hadn't expressed concern that she was going to meet up with her AP was proof that I was spying on her, and that she didn't trust me not to spy on her. I said that first of alI she had given me no reason to trust her, so I felt justified in my surveillance. Then I said that no, I didn't know one way or the other if she was planning meeting her AP,, although I hadn't seen any evidence to support it, but that I hadn't expressed concern because at this point I was starting not to care about the AP. I was feeling pretty pessimistic about our marriage at that point, so I offered to go ahead and file for divorce, or at least start the process, the next day. She then got a little skittish, and said that we should wait and talk about this in counseling. I reiterated that it was too long to wait, that I couldn't stand the present circumstances for 2 weeks. She then asked if maybe we could schedule a session together for later the same week as our IC sessions, and I agreed to try and book it. She really didn't want me filing for D while she was out of town. I reluctantly agreed to hold off on filing until tomorrow, Monday the 23rd. In all honesty, I have some questions about the filing process that I needed to talk to an attorney about first anyways. I plan to do that tomorrow.

As to the letter my WW wife saw me writing, you can probably guess the targeted recipient - the OMW. I finished the letter (not short, about 3000 words), and printed out the evidence I thought most appropriate to give her. It makes a pretty substantial pile of paper. I've been thinking about the bet way to ensure she gets the package. I've decided to go Shamwow's route and hire a local PI to find her and personally give it to her when her H, the AP, is not around. I can't find any info on where she works or if she works, but I have her home number (confirmed) and her home address, so this shouldn't be too expensive, and knowing that she'll get it without her H around is worth the extra expense. I found a local PI and am calling them tomorrow.

That's about it for now. It should be an interesting week ahead...


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Mad SAHD said:


> She seemed to accept that, but grumbled that all I would mention would be her A, and not her list of complaints about me compiled at just before and just after D-day.


LOL



Mad SAHD said:


> She was going out of town the next day, and the issue of trust and surveillance came up. *She told me she is convinced that she has no privacy, and that the fact that I hadn't expressed concern that she was going to meet up with her AP was proof that I was spying on her, and that she didn't trust me not to spy on her.* I said that first of alI she had given me no reason to trust her, so I felt justified in my surveillance. Then I said that no, I didn't know one way or the other if she was planning meeting her AP,, although I hadn't seen any evidence to support it, but that I hadn't expressed concern because at this point I was starting not to care about the AP. I was feeling pretty pessimistic about our marriage at that point, so I offered to go ahead and file for divorce, or at least start the process, the next day. She then got a little skittish, and said that we should wait and talk about this in counseling. I reiterated that it was too long to wait, that I couldn't stand the present circumstances for 2 weeks. She then asked if maybe we could schedule a session together for later the same week as our IC sessions, and I agreed to try and book it. She really didn't want me filing for D while she was out of town. I reluctantly agreed to hold off on filing until tomorrow, Monday the 23rd. In all honesty, I have some questions about the filing process that I needed to talk to an attorney about first anyways. I plan to do that tomorrow.


Again, LOL. The nerve of some people...



Mad SAHD said:


> As to the letter my WW wife saw me writing, you can probably guess the targeted recipient - the OMW. I finished the letter (not short, about 3000 words), and printed out the evidence I thought most appropriate to give her. It makes a pretty substantial pile of paper. I've been thinking about the bet way to ensure she gets the package. I've decided to go Shamwow's route and hire a local PI to find her and personally give it to her when her H, the AP, is not around. I can't find any info on where she works or if she works, but I have her home number (confirmed) and her home address, so this shouldn't be too expensive, and knowing that she'll get it without her H around is worth the extra expense. I found a local PI and am calling them tomorrow.


Awesome! Glad to see that you're pulling the trigger on this.

My read on your wife is that she's planning for divorce. Her getting antsy or skittish when you talk about filing is just her reaction to having the choice made for her/taken away from her. That or she wants to be the one to file.

Either way, it would seem that she's way more concerned about maintaining her image than she is about doing any actual work to save your marriage. That's why she wants to "wait to discuss things w/ the marriage counselor"... she doesn't want to discuss things at all. She's lining everything up so that she can pull the ripcord when she's ready, and she's freaking out that you're trying to get her to jump while the plane is still gaining altitude.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Either way, it would seem that she's way more concerned about maintaining her image than she is about doing any actual work to save your marriage. That's why she wants to "wait to discuss things w/ the marriage counselor"... she doesn't want to discuss things at all. She's lining everything up so that she can pull the ripcord when she's ready, and she's freaking out that you're trying to get her to jump while the plane is still gaining altitude.


:iagree:, unfortunately. At the very least she seems to think MC is for 1) airing her grievances with you, which of course are the real reason for the affair, and 2) getting her off the hook for doing any real marriage-saving work. She is nowhere near ready for true reconciliation. Do not go that route until she proves to you that she is.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

Philat said:


> :iagree:, unfortunately. At the very least she seems to think MC is for 1) airing her grievances with you, which of course are the real reason for the affair, and 2) getting her off the hook for doing any real marriage-saving work. She is nowhere near ready for true reconciliation. Do not go that route until she proves to you that she is.


Believe me, I'm nowhere near ready to try that, and neither is she. The difference right now is that she wants the separation because she says it makes her feel better about me. The more time she spends without me, with or without anyone else, the "better" she feels towards me, which I interpret to mean less hostile. I feel the opposite in that this weird dance of avoidance within the same house to coordinate childcare while avoiding any meaningful discussion of our issues is just making me feel more frustrated and hostile and more inclined to go the D route. When I told her this, that I was not going to be patient with this separation thing while I felt little progress was being made on revolving our issues (or at least it's so slow as to seem static), she again said this is why we're in counseling, and the decision about whether separation will work or not needs to be made there. I told her that no, the decision about whether separation and counseling are working for me is mine to make. I did agree that talking about this directly with her was not being productive - that we were not going to agree, and arguing just increased hostility without getting any closer to resolution.

Tonight she said she had decided that she was OK with going with me and the kids to visit my family - mainly to support me because she knows how hard that trip can be alone (well, actually she doesn't know, she's only heard how hard it is from me when I've done it in the past). I probably should have just been grateful (and I am), but I couldn't help mentioning that her willingness to come along was understandable considering the fact that if she were not to come, I would have to explain her absence, which would mean talking about her A and her attitude since D-day with my family. She asked, "well, couldn't you say that we're having marital problems?" I said that of course I could say that, but then I would be asked why we're having problems, and the A would be first on my list of problems. She then said, "you could say it's because I don't love you anymore." I couldn't believe that she honestly would expect me to say that and not mention the A, that she thought it was reasonable to ask me to lie to my family to protect her from the judgment of my family, after all the misery she's heaped on me in the last seven weeks. I said that if that we're true, why go through all this counseling and separation crap? I could just file for D tomorrow and save us a lot of time, money, and misery. She changed the subject then and never answered that question.

When we were coordinating our week for child care this evening, my WW again pointed out that I was a SAHD, so of course I should be handling most of the child care. I then pointed out that under the present circumstances, I really couldn't be a SAHD anymore, or at least it would be irresponsible to myself to assume I will be able to continue being one. She looked puzzled and asked why. I told her that there was only one possible scenario where I could continue being a SAHD - namely a real R. I then asked her what was the likelihood of that happening at this point? She said she didn't know, but that that was the goal of separation and counseling - to see if we are capable and willing to give each other what we need to reconcile and be happy together. I asked her to give me a ballpark figure, and she deflected that question and changed the subject. I said that I had very serious doubts that she was willing to give me what I needed to restore trust and be happy in our marriage. She cut me off at this and said, again, that this was the kind of issue best discussed in MC. Every serious question I have apparently has to wait for counseling. I think I see a pattern. Perhaps we can do MC 3-4 times a week and speed this process along?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Save yourself a whole lot of time, money, and heartache, and just file for divorce -- citing infidelity -- tomorrow morning.


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## jr92gp (Feb 28, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Save yourself a whole lot of time, money, and heartache, and just file for divorce -- citing infidelity -- tomorrow morning.


:iagree:


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Mad SAHD said:


> Believe me, I'm nowhere near ready to try that, and neither is she. The difference right now is that she wants the separation because she says it makes her feel better about me. The more time she spends without me, with or without anyone else, the "better" she feels towards me, which I interpret to mean less hostile. I feel the opposite in that this weird dance of avoidance within the same house to coordinate childcare while avoiding any meaningful discussion of our issues is just making me feel more frustrated and hostile and more inclined to go the D route. When I told her this, that I was not going to be patient with this separation thing while I felt little progress was being made on revolving our issues (or at least it's so slow as to seem static), she again said this is why we're in counseling, and the decision about whether separation will work or not needs to be made there. I told her that no, the decision about whether separation and counseling are working for me is mine to make. I did agree that talking about this directly with her was not being productive - that we were not going to agree, and arguing just increased hostility without getting any closer to resolution.
> 
> Tonight she said she had decided that she was OK with going with me and the kids to visit my family - mainly to support me because she knows how hard that trip can be alone (well, actually she doesn't know, she's only heard how hard it is from me when I've done it in the past). I probably should have just been grateful (and I am), but I couldn't help mentioning that her willingness to come along was understandable considering the fact that if she were not to come, I would have to explain her absence, which would mean talking about her A and her attitude since D-day with my family. She asked, "well, couldn't you say that we're having marital problems?" I said that of course I could say that, but then I would be asked why we're having problems, and the A would be first on my list of problems. She then said, "you could say it's because I don't love you anymore." I couldn't believe that she honestly would expect me to say that and not mention the A, that she thought it was reasonable to ask me to lie to my family to protect her from the judgment of my family, after all the misery she's heaped on me in the last seven weeks. I said that if that we're true, why go through all this counseling and separation crap? I could just file for D tomorrow and save us a lot of time, money, and misery. She changed the subject then and never answered that question.
> 
> When we were coordinating our week for child care this evening, my WW again pointed out that I was a SAHD, so of course I should be handling most of the child care. I then pointed out that under the present circumstances, I really couldn't be a SAHD anymore, or at least it would be irresponsible to myself to assume I will be able to continue being one. She looked puzzled and asked why. I told her that there was only one possible scenario where I could continue being a SAHD - namely a real R. I then asked her what was the likelihood of that happening at this point? She said she didn't know, but that that was the goal of separation and counseling - to see if we are capable and willing to give each other what we need to reconcile and be happy together. I asked her to give me a ballpark figure, and she deflected that question and changed the subject. I said that I had very serious doubts that she was willing to give me what I needed to restore trust and be happy in our marriage. She cut me off at this and said, again, that this was the kind of issue best discussed in MC. Every serious question I have apparently has to wait for counseling. I think I see a pattern. Perhaps we can do MC 3-4 times a week and speed this process along?


Glad you are informing the other man's wife.

Good luck dude, she is going to blindside you at some point. You realize what you wrote shows she doesn't want reconciliation at all, but you do. Oh and no, separation doesn't make the heart grow fonder, especially when marital problems are involved.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Glad you are informing the other man's wife.
> 
> Good luck dude, she is going to blindside you at some point. You realize what you wrote shows she doesn't want reconciliation at all, but you do. Oh and no, *separation doesn't make the heart grow fonder, especially when marital problems are involved*.


Suffer no illusions here, sir... Her only reason for mentioning, pursuing, or pushing for separation -- legal or otherwise -- is for her to have a sort of moral carte blanche w/ which she will (in her mind) be free to pursue relationships w/ other men.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Count me in as another vote to file tomorrow. She's just stalling you, she hasn't given you a single thing you can hang a reconciliation on. She's all about protecting her image, so the only thing you're going to get out of waiting is her filing first.

Don't forget, divorce is a process, not an event, so if you file tomorrow it doesn't mean it's all over. It might be the wake up call she needs to start showing real remorse. Assuming she's capable of it, of course.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

Agree.

File tomorrow and cite infidelity as the cause. Let all those insane family court laws work in your favor.

SAHD. If the courts in your area are like most, she could be on the hook for child and spouse support. Not mentioning that you could very well end up with majority custody and favorable assets division.

Again, file tomorrow. Regain the initiative. Read between the lines, OP. She is setting you up to take the fall for everything, including her affair.


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## Mad SAHD (May 4, 2014)

Ripper said:


> Agree.
> 
> File tomorrow and cite infidelity as the cause. Let all those insane family court laws work in your favor.
> 
> ...


Here in our state, custody is usually not influenced by infidelity one way or the other. I think we both agree that joint custody would be the likely outcome, and we both are ok with that. Spousal support, i.e. alimony, is not an issue as I am not eligible for it. In terms of division of assets, infidelity, if proven, can affect how assets are split, with the betrayed spouse given a larger share. I'm not sure if infidelity can only be alleged in the petitioner's filing, or if it can also be alleged in the respondent's answer. If it is the former (or if alleging it in response is not as effective), then who files first makes a real difference. That's one of the questions I need to get answered ASAP. I do know that I have oodles of very graphic (textual) proof of the affair, while her allegations that she thinks somehow excuse or justify it (and what really does that anyways?) are not provable, and are both factually disputed and questionably significant even if not disputed. 

My WW thinks me getting my own attorney means that I want a vicious, contentious divorce, and that I would be looking to exact revenge through the divorce. She wants a collaborative divorce, if either of us decide on divorce, using one attorney and filing a no-fault divorce. There is something to her claim. A non-collaborative divorce, a disputed divorce, will be more contentious and more expensive and will be harder our kids. I can't help thinking, though, that a collaborative divorce would also help her get an even split of assets and avoid having her affair become a matter of public record. Damn, this loss of trust thing really is insidious, isn't it? 😕


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Mad SAHD said:


> My WW thinks me getting my own attorney means that I want a vicious, contentious divorce, and that I would be looking to exact revenge through the divorce. She wants a collaborative divorce, *if either of us decide on divorce*, using one attorney and filing a no-fault divorce. There is something to her claim. A non-collaborative divorce, a disputed divorce, will be more contentious and more expensive and will be harder our kids. I can't help thinking, though, that a collaborative divorce would also help her get an even split of assets and avoid having her affair become a matter of public record. Damn, this loss of trust thing really is insidious, isn't it?


Do what you feel is right, but make no mistake... She has already decided on divorce -- she just wants it on her own terms.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Do what you feel is right, but make no mistake... She has already decided on divorce -- she just wants it on her own terms.


BINGO!!!
:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Mad SAHD said:


> My WW thinks me getting my own attorney means that I want a vicious, contentious divorce, and that I would be looking to exact revenge through the divorce. *She wants a collaborative divorce, if either of us decide on divorce, using one attorney and filing a no-fault divorce. *There is something to her claim. A non-collaborative divorce, a disputed divorce, will be more contentious and more expensive and will be harder our kids. I can't help thinking, though, that a collaborative divorce would also help her get an even split of assets and avoid having her affair become a matter of public record. Damn, this loss of trust thing really is insidious, isn't it? 😕


CORRECTION: She wants to have her affair and have to pay no consequences -OR- the least amount of consequences possible. 

She has not yet even once indicated in any way that she gives a rip about YOU or your best interests. 

She has an image in her mind where you quietly disappear into the background, and she is "free to love her soulmate"--and everyone loves him just as much as she does and "is happy she's happy." That is make-believe.

If you file as petitioner, and you file an extremely fair split considering infidelity (say...60/40) with joint custody and a fair parenting plan, there is absolutely no reason it has to be a contentious divorce. She would agree to it, have her attorney look it over and advise her, make her response ("change visitation to Mother's Day with me and I agree") and it's over. The only reason it would become contentious is if you are unfair and vicious, or she is unfair and vicious. 

I personally agree with the majority here. File. Claim infidelity. Prepare a thorough list of assets and debts and split them fair as relates to typical infidelity cases in your state. Prepare a fair parenting plan with joint custody. Plug REAL earning amounts into a child support calculator (just call yourselves Parent A and Parent B so it's not mommy biased). And plug in REAL amounts into an alimony calculator and see what you may be due if any. I suspect some may be due if you are a SAHD, and to be honest, you'll need it so just check into it with an open mind. 

YOU file tomorrow, and YOU be fair and non-contentious. If it becomes contentious because she really just wants her cake on the side and doesn't want to pay for her choices...well that's on her then, isn't it?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

The theme I see is that your wife initially disagrees about something, then you use logic and reason to show her that she is absolutely wrong, then she agrees to your logic to your face to keep the peace. You are not getting the real her during the arguments. You are getting someone that is trying to manage the situation. The part about 'exposing to her family' is very good.

Don't use exposure as a leverage. Just do it.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Mad SAHD said:


> Believe me, I'm nowhere near ready to try that, and neither is she. The difference right now is that she wants the separation because she says it makes her feel better about me.* The more time she spends without me, with or without anyone else, the "better" she feels towards me, *which I interpret to mean less hostile. I feel the opposite in that this weird dance of avoidance within the same house to coordinate childcare while avoiding any meaningful discussion of our issues is just making me feel more frustrated and hostile and more inclined to go the D route. When I told her this, that I was not going to be patient with this separation thing while I felt little progress was being made on revolving our issues (or at least it's so slow as to seem static), she again said this is why we're in counseling, and the decision about whether separation will work or not needs to be made there. I told her that no, the decision about whether separation and counseling are working for me is mine to make. I did agree that talking about this directly with her was not being productive - that we were not going to agree, and arguing just increased hostility without getting any closer to resolution.
> 
> Tonight she said she had decided that she was OK with going with me and the kids to visit my family - mainly to support me because she knows how hard that trip can be alone (well, actually she doesn't know, she's only heard how hard it is from me when I've done it in the past). I probably should have just been grateful (and I am), but I couldn't help mentioning that her willingness to come along was understandable considering the fact that if she were not to come, I would have to explain her absence, which would mean talking about her A and her attitude since D-day with my family. She asked, "well, couldn't you say that we're having marital problems?" I said that of course I could say that, but then I would be asked why we're having problems, and the A would be first on my list of problems. She then said, "you could say it's because I don't love you anymore." I couldn't believe that she honestly would expect me to say that and not mention the A, that she thought it was reasonable to ask me to lie to my family to protect her from the judgment of my family, after all the misery she's heaped on me in the last seven weeks. I said that if that we're true, why go through all this counseling and separation crap? I could just file for D tomorrow and save us a lot of time, money, and misery. She changed the subject then and never answered that question.
> 
> When we were coordinating our week for child care this evening, my WW again pointed out that I was a SAHD, so of course I should be handling most of the child care. I then pointed out that under the present circumstances, I really couldn't be a SAHD anymore, or at least it would be irresponsible to myself to assume I will be able to continue being one. She looked puzzled and asked why. I told her that there was only one possible scenario where I could continue being a SAHD - namely a real R. I then asked her what was the likelihood of that happening at this point? She said she didn't know, but that that was the goal of separation and counseling - to see if we are capable and willing to give each other what we need to reconcile and be happy together. I asked her to give me a ballpark figure, and she deflected that question and changed the subject. I said that I had very serious doubts that she was willing to give me what I needed to restore trust and be happy in our marriage. She cut me off at this and said, again, that this was the kind of issue best discussed in MC. Every serious question I have apparently has to wait for counseling. I think I see a pattern. Perhaps we can do MC 3-4 times a week and speed this process along?


Her entitlement is off the charts. Just ask her the next time why she thinks you should lie for her ?

If I were you, I would take her to the family trip and expose her there. 

The bolded part is some manipulative sh!t she is pulling on you.


SAHD, she is trying to manage by dangling a carrot called R in front of you. I don't see one speck of integrity from what you posted about her. She is trying stalling tactics to put herself in an advantageous situation. She is not looking to reconcile. She is in a bad situation because of all the evidence you have. 

Also, if she is really meeting up with her OM during this trip, what is the point of counseling ?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Expose to the om's wife asap. Then to both families or you are going to be made out to be the bad guy. It happens everytime. The reason you don't see contrition and remorse is everything is under her control. Let her deal with what is really going on.

Unfortunately, most counselors end up having no better rate of success saving marriages than people on their own according to Dr. Harley.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Mad SAHD said:


> *Here in our state, custody is usually not influenced by infidelity one way or the other.* I think we both agree that joint custody would be the likely outcome, and we both are ok with that. Spousal support, i.e. alimony, is not an issue as I am not eligible for it. In terms of division of assets, infidelity, if proven, can affect how assets are split, with the betrayed spouse given a larger share. I'm not sure if infidelity can only be alleged in the petitioner's filing, or if it can also be alleged in the respondent's answer. If it is the former (or if alleging it in response is not as effective), then who files first makes a real difference. That's one of the questions I need to get answered ASAP. I do know that I have oodles of very graphic (textual) proof of the affair, while her allegations that she thinks somehow excuse or justify it (and what really does that anyways?) are not provable, and are both factually disputed and questionably significant even if not disputed.
> 
> My WW thinks me getting my own attorney means that I want a vicious, contentious divorce, and that I would be looking to exact revenge through the divorce. She wants a collaborative divorce, if either of us decide on divorce, using one attorney and filing a no-fault divorce. There is something to her claim. A non-collaborative divorce, a disputed divorce, will be more contentious and more expensive and will be harder our kids. I can't help thinking, though, that a collaborative divorce would also help her get an even split of assets and avoid having her affair become a matter of public record. Damn, this loss of trust thing really is insidious, isn't it? 😕


Custody is rarely affected by infidelity in any state. Usually if there is any affect at all it's on alimony. What's going to affect custody is in your user name, Mad *SAHD. *As the stay at home partner you're the one that has more interaction with the kids, so you're in a good position to get primary custody and your wife gets the visitation.

One thing I'm curious about is the income issue. As I understand it you have only passive income or even no income, living off your savings so to speak while she has an earned income. If you're living off your savings, she's probably going to have to pay you alimony and child support. On the other hand, if you've used any of those savings for marital assets she may be able to make a claim on half of it. I don't know any of this, curious to see what your lawyer tells you.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Mad SAHD, you might wonder why we're all jumping all over you about this. It's like you're in a horror movie. This guy's in your basement and cut your power and you're about to open the door and go down there with a mostly empty bic lighter for light to find the breaker. Us saying file ASAP is equivalent to saying don't go in the basement.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Saw your posts on another thread, Care to share some updates ?


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## Kevinb (Jan 8, 2012)

Mad SAHD said:


> As I said, he lives halfway across the country. There's no one I know who has any connection to the OM or the OMW at all. Basically there is no way I could tell her (and her confront him) without him (and eventually my WW) from finding out. The relation between them is otherwise too unlikely. The connection from work would be a giveaway. So exposure would definitely be traced back to me.
> 
> I found her Facebook page. I suppose I could send an initial message to her.
> 
> ...


Mate.... You definitely are her *****...AND...if you haven't figured it out by now...SHES A *****!

"Cause more harm than good"...wtf are you talking about?
Why the hell do you care if the exposure is traced back to you...are you scared of him...or her....or to the possibility of not reconciling with a *****.

You sound like a nice guy but for FFS take the initiative MAN UP set an example for your kids. IMHO


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

coward, sorry but that is what you are, you are a fraid to expose the man who was bedding your wife for recreational sport (because as you stated he was happily m,arried and knew her sexual venture with your wife was leading ot nothing but pleasure), no wonder she choosed him as bed partner,

so what if he knows it was you?, are you afraid of a beating, if that is the case your wife will eventually find another alfa to bed


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