# Has anyone changed their mind after forgiving?



## Lola416 (Apr 25, 2015)

So I was on here before my husband was a cheater with girls from work always claimed it was less than what most affairs are...never really knew the truth but he is convincing...anyway I had to make the choice stay or go. We have 2 kids together and have been married for 19 years. So o decided to stay he really tried to make up for this. We starting dating again and it was really nice. He always tells me he loves me never on his phone anymore and never out except for work. But I have good days where I love him to death. And our sex life has improved drastically but I just have other days i can’t stand to look at him. I think of all the lies he has told me and i wonder if he is really telling me the truth. I bring it up we argue but he insists he is not lying to me and that he was really stupid for what he did. Some days I just want to go but other days I feel like we do have a good relationship and maybe he screwed up. Has anyone had feeling like this after an affair?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I think that one thing people forget is that you can forgive someone but still leave the marriage. 

How long ago was all this? How many affairs did he have? It doesn't sound as if he is really repentant when he is still not being honest and is playing down his affairs. A truly repentant person would not do this. What has he done to help rebuild the trust. Do you have access to his phone and computer? Has he left that job?Has he set clear strong boundaries with women? Have you both been to MC?

When this happens the trust is destroyed. I heard a man once describe it was a vase that is shattered and that you can either sweep it up and put it in the bin, or you can painstakingly put it back together piece by piece. It will never be the same, something has been lost, but some do seem to manage it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I think that one thing people forget is that you can forgive someone but still leave the marriage.




This never made sense to me. How can you forgive and then do exactly the same thing as a pissed off person would do...


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> This never made sense to me. How can you forgive and then do exactly the same thing as a pissed off person would do...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





> for·give
> /fərˈɡiv/Submit
> verb
> stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake.
> ...


 You can be done without being angry or resentful.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> This never made sense to me. How can you forgive and then do exactly the same thing as a pissed off person would do...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The same as some people I know who were abused as children have forgiven their abuser. Doesn't mean that the abuser can be trusted, or that they must see them again, but that they chose to let go of the anger and bitterness and move on with their lives.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Forgiveness is for *you* to move on. It doesn't mean everything resets and is okay again. Your husband still cheated and lied and that can take more than a few years to recover from -- assuming you even can. Trust that's broken is slow to come back. Sometimes it never does but in any event it's a long process. The only easy part of R is the decision to try it. The rest is hard work.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> The same as some people I know who were abused as children have forgiven their abuser. Doesn't mean that the abuser can be trusted, or that they must see them again, but that they chose to let go of the anger and bitterness and move on with their lives.




But that’s more to do with forgiving yourself rather than the abuser?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> But that’s more to do with forgiving yourself rather than the abuser?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The abused don't need to forgive themselves. 
Over the years I have learnt that forgiveness is so that we can move on and not let what happened ruin the rest of our lives.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Openminded said:


> Forgiveness is for *you* to move on. It doesn't mean everything resets and is okay again. Your husband still cheated and lied and that can take more than a few years to recover from -- assuming you even can. Trust that's broken is slow to come back. Sometimes it never does but in any event it's a long process. The only easy part of R is the decision to try it. The rest is hard work.


Yes and for many their marriage is shattered and the damage is too great, especially if there has been more than one affair. 
I do think that some people can try again after one affair, but when it happens again, that must be devastating. 

For myself I don't think I could ever have sex with a spouse again if he had cheated, and the cheaters also risk infecting their unknowing spouses with STD's which is appalling. 

OP have you both been tested for STD's?


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> This never made sense to me. How can you forgive and then do exactly the same thing as a pissed off person would do...
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You forgive for YOUR sake, not the other persons. Its absolutely possible - but very difficult to do.

If my husband cheated on me I would divorce him. I would still love him, in time I may be able to forgive him, but the trust would be shattered. I could no longer be married to him.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

frusdil said:


> You forgive for YOUR sake, not the other persons. Its absolutely possible - but very difficult to do.
> 
> 
> 
> If my husband cheated on me I would divorce him. I would still love him, in time I may be able to forgive him, but the trust would be shattered. I could no longer be married to him.



Yes I understand the concept: just not so much the practical aspect...
If my wife insulted me in some way, she apologised and I said I forgave her, she would expect me to act exactly like I was acting with her before...
And if I wasn’t, from her point of view, it would look like I was still harbouring resentment.
There’s something about this way of expressing what’s happening, that is not quite right...
I would rather use the expression ‘I managed to come to terms with it’. But ‘forgiving’, would not appear completely honest to me.

Maybe it’s to do with the biblical connotation, that the word is used differently (Christians HAVE to forgive, in order to be good?)


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

The OP actually illustrates the problem with such an expression...I don’t feel I HAVE to forgive the person if something was done to me, but I can come to terms with it.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Yes I understand the concept: just not so much the practical aspect...
> If my wife insulted me in some way, she apologised and I said I forgave her, she would expect me to act exactly like I was acting with her before...
> And if I wasn’t, from her point of view, it would look like I was still harbouring resentment.
> There’s something about this way of expressing what’s happening, that is not quite right...
> ...


I completely see where you're coming from 

A better example may be, 3 years ago now, someone said something that rocked me to the core. I have long forgiven them, and I mean that absolutely, I know they didn't mean it and if they could take it back they would. 

I may have long forgiven, but I haven't forgotten, and probably never will. I don't get angry at them about it, I don't throw it in their face, but I remember the pain like it was yesterday.

Does that make sense?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

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inmyprime said:


> This never made sense to me. How can you forgive and then do exactly the same thing as a pissed off person would do...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Several reasons. The BS can hear the former WS say something that reminds them of the affairs, which can trigger them.

Or they see something (a film, TV show) that brings to mind the cheating.

@Lola416 would counselling help, do you think?


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## Snow Fighter (Jul 19, 2018)

Yes. She promised to "make it up to me every single day for as long as we live."

Yeah that lasted a whole month, now she's back to being an angry, ungrateful, abrasive person and I get the brunt of it. Another instance where I'd wished I had filed. To me, this was lip service and not authentic. She's had two olan B's waiting in the wings. 

I feel like such a tool and an idiot. I'm a means to an end where she got away with not experiencing the hell she put me through.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Lola416 said:


> So I was on here before my husband was a cheater with girls from work always claimed it was less than what most affairs are...never really knew the truth but he is convincing...anyway I had to make the choice stay or go. We have 2 kids together and have been married for 19 years. So o decided to stay he really tried to make up for this. We starting dating again and it was really nice. He always tells me he loves me never on his phone anymore and never out except for work. But I have good days where I love him to death. And our sex life has improved drastically but I just have other days i can’t stand to look at him. I think of all the lies he has told me and i wonder if he is really telling me the truth. I bring it up we argue but he insists he is not lying to me and that he was really stupid for what he did. Some days I just want to go but other days I feel like we do have a good relationship and maybe he screwed up. Has anyone had feeling like this after an affair?


He has done alot of damage and betrayed your trust, things will may be good, different but they will never be the same and you will never trust him 100% again, it is what it is. He didn't make a one off f*** up, it was many times by the sound of it, that is callous betrayal of the marriage and of you.

He must know that he has to do all the work to have some semblance of a relationship. You cannot hold it over his head but you cannot trust him 100%, HE did that, not you. AND, the fact that he says he was 'stupid' minimises what he did. It is nothing to do with being stupid, it is simply selfishness, not giving a damn about the hurt and damage, only acting selfishly and doing what he wanted. What you are going through is absolutely normal, but frankly he would need to really understand the depth of your pain. Ask him to read "After The Affair" - he must read it also.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> This never made sense to me. How can you forgive and then do exactly the same thing as a pissed off person would do...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Forgiving does not mean forgetting. The pain, the hurt, the mind pictures don't magically disappear with forgiving.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> But that’s more to do with forgiving yourself rather than the abuser?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No. It's about letting go of the anger and bitterness and resentment you feel toward the person you trusted not to betray you. It benefits you when you're free of those negative emotions and forgiveness can follow. That doesn't mean what they did is okay and life then returns to what it was before. It just means you are no longer holding onto emotions that don't benefit you. In my case, true forgiveness only came after my divorce but others are capable of forgiveness during R. 

It's not easy -- and not everyone can or will forgive -- but I've found forgiveness is the better path emotionally for the person whose life has been devastated.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

frusdil said:


> I completely see where you're coming from
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes I understand forgiveness doesn’t mean forgetting. 
However it’s just not how it’s normally used and understood in every day situations generally. Perhaps it’s just me or the people around me who use it differently. It seems there is a lot of leeway of what it can mean.

When you say you forgave a cheating spouse:
- everything could be back to normal
- everything could be back to normal with occasional flashbacks
- not everything is back to normal and occasional fights erupt
- nothing is back to normal and the hurt is present every day
- the hurt is not only present but the BS decided to move on with their lives
- the BS decided not only to move on with their lives but also divorce and sue the WS for damages while maintaining that they forgave them
- the BS shoots WS and OM/OW and also forgives them...

Ok last part is extreme but this is just an illustration that for all practical intents and purposes, ‘i forgive you’ can mean and be interpreted in SO many different ways...

There should be (at least) two different words/expressions used for both extremes on the spectrum.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. You never forget and you never trust 100% (or you shouldn't). 

There is NO going back to "normal" when you stay with a cheating spouse. You create a new marriage but it's not the same as the marriage you had when cheating wasn't involved. 

Some succeed with R and some don't. Only time will tell if you do.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Lola416 said:


> So I was on here before my husband was a cheater with girls from work always claimed it was less than what most affairs are...never really knew the truth but he is convincing...anyway I had to make the choice stay or go. We have 2 kids together and have been married for 19 years. So o decided to stay he really tried to make up for this. We starting dating again and it was really nice. He always tells me he loves me never on his phone anymore and never out except for work. But I have good days where I love him to death. And our sex life has improved drastically but I just have other days i can’t stand to look at him. I think of all the lies he has told me and i wonder if he is really telling me the truth. I bring it up we argue but he insists he is not lying to me and that he was really stupid for what he did. Some days I just want to go but other days I feel like we do have a good relationship and maybe he screwed up. Has anyone had feeling like this after an affair?


It takes a lot of time and effort to rebuild broken trust. 

You said "girls" - plural. So, he had multiple affairs? Over how long a period of time? 

Did he or both of you go to therapy to get to the bottom of that errant sexual behavior?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Yes I understand forgiveness doesn’t mean forgetting.
> However it’s just not how it’s normally used and understood in every day situations generally. Perhaps it’s just me or the people around me who use it differently. It seems there is a lot of leeway of what it can mean.
> 
> When you say you forgave a cheating spouse:
> ...


There is no "normal" after an affair. Everything is completely shifted.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> There is no "normal" after an affair. Everything is completely shifted.



Yes, but everything CAN be normal, if someone has forgiven (in a different scenario). It doesn’t have to be (according to most here), but it can.
I was purely talking about how the phrase is typically used around here.

Maybe certain things don’t HAVE to be forgiven or are too difficult to forgive.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> Maybe certain things don’t HAVE to be forgiven or are too difficult to forgive.



Some can forgive, and some can't. Others don't have to forgive. I can forgive if someone borrows money from me and doesn't pay me back, but I will not trust or lend them money again. I can choose not to forgive the person for not paying me. I would not trust the person again either. Either way, trust is forever broken and will never be the same. Forgiveness is IMO irrelevant as it doesn't repair trust. Some actions have irreparable consequences. Infidelity for most is one of those actions. Abuse and murder would be others.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Bibi1031 said:


> Some can forgive, and some can't. Others don't have to forgive. I can forgive if someone borrows money from me and doesn't pay me back, but I will not trust or lend them money again. I can choose not to forgive the person for not paying me. I would not trust the person again either. Either way, trust is forever broken and will never be the same. Forgiveness is IMO irrelevant as it doesn't repair trust. Some actions have irreparable consequences. Infidelity for most is one of those actions. Abuse and murder would be others.


Unforgiveness just harms the one who wont forgive. People have forgiven awful things, I have myself as has my husband. Its not a question of can or cant, its a decision, a hard one. 
As you say though it doesnt mean that we can trust that person again.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, but everything CAN be normal, if someone has forgiven (in a different scenario). It doesn’t have to be (according to most here), but it can.
> I was purely talking about how the phrase is typically used around here.
> 
> Maybe certain things don’t HAVE to be forgiven or are too difficult to forgive.
> ...


If you want to call it a "new normal" - that's one thing. But affairs truly shift a relationship. 

It's really hard to even begin to talk to someone who has gone through affair scenarios about how that relationship shift COULD be a good thing. 

I have a bone to pick with the word "forgive" because of something I once read along the way in my life. And that was the concept that forgiveness is, a lot of times, seen as something that is given from a person who feels justifiably hurt to the person in a submissive state who caused the harm.

For some reason, that idea kind of grates on me. 

The thing that changed my mind about forgiveness is that it's not actually necessary IF, instead, one is able to somehow completely empathize and fully understand from the other person's point of view. IF - and it's really a big IF - a person can somehow get into a state of mind and empathy and understanding of the other person's POV, the really odd thing that happens is: forgiveness, per se, is just...no longer necessary. It's then more, like, "Oh, I get it. I get you."

Of course, the responses will be: "Wait a minute! What if the person isn't really, really sorry?" or "What good does THAT do? Then you'll be going around letting people treat you like a doormat." and many, many other complaints about how empathy, compassion and understanding are dumb new age ideas for kooky Kalifornia nut jobs. 

In actuality, in the very rare instances where I have, in my life, allowed myself to fully understand my spouse from his POV, forgiveness actually fell short of what I truly wanted to give him. And the putting myself in his shoes actually brought both of us more peace. I sort of got myself and all of my defective, selfish thinking out of the way so I was open to fully embracing him. It's brought us an awful lot of happiness and peace.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> Unforgiveness just harms the one who wont forgive. People have forgiven awful things, I have myself as has my husband. Its not a question of can or cant, its a decision, a hard one.
> As you say though it doesnt mean that we can trust that person again.


I see that you and your husband can. Wish all of us could, but some of us can't and boy have I tried. 

I have sisters that are like you and your hubby. I have sisters and a niece thst are like me. My mom was like me too. 

It would be easy for me to lie here on the net, but some of us try and simply can't forgive certain transgressions. I was abused as a child, and I have never and will never forgive any of my abusers. Why the hell should I? Simply ain't gonna happen in this lifetime.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*As I've intoned on numerous occasions, I know that the Christian thing is "to forgive," but unlike God, I can never "forget," out of fear of being burned yet again!*


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

When you said divorce is what a posted off person would do, I saw the problem. Marriage is not a reward nor is divorce a punishment or proof of unforgivness. Both are results.

You fall in love and the other person does not want to get narried... no marriage. You love someone and they are bad news, unreliable, etc.,..hopefully you don't get married. Then you find a person and you two match; there is something different about them, or the relationship, or whatever that makes this relationship different than previous ones and you marry each other. It's a result and NOT a reward.

Divorce takes a similar path. You can do it because you drifted apart and don't want to fix it, but no one is pissed. Someone cheats and it can be a deal breaker. No anger anymore. No hatred, even possibly forgiveness. Still, that thing that made this person stand out as THE ONE is gone. You get divorced.

I see so many BS who say the sheen is gone, the special is gone, who try to make it work even though it's different and they ultimately accept the"new normal". That is their choice, but not everyone accepts the new normal because that means being married to someone who has lost that thing that made them marriage worthy.

Divorce is too long and too significant to start maintain and finish based on being pushed off. Sure, some folks can hold that kind of anger, but not many. Forgiveness does not restore the sheen.


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

Could not edit last post. Posted off= pissed off. Pushed = pissed.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> *Unforgiveness just harms the one who wont forgive.* People have forgiven awful things, I have myself as has my husband. Its not a question of can or cant, its a decision, a hard one.
> As you say though it doesnt mean that we can trust that person again.


Speak for yourself.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I think sometimes people confuse forgiveness with an emotion. I can forgive someone while still being hurt and, quite frankly, not liking that person at all. I am not sure where the phrase forgive and forget came from, but it was not The Bible. When we talk about God-forgetting our sins, he does not forget in the way we understand forgetful this period but that is a whole different discussion. I forgive someone in that I release myself from the responsibility of doling out judgment to them. That does not mean I become friends with them or reconcile with them. I forgive the man who molested me, but I am not going to spend any time with him or chat him up should I run into him at the grocery store. I forgive my ex for the hurt he caused me, but we are not going to be friends. Forgiveness is not an event in my mind. It is a process. And sometimes that process takes the rest of your lives.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Lola416 said:


> So I was on here before my husband was a cheater with girls from work always claimed it was less than what most affairs are...never really knew the truth but he is convincing...anyway I had to make the choice stay or go. We have 2 kids together and have been married for 19 years. So o decided to stay he really tried to make up for this. We starting dating again and it was really nice. He always tells me he loves me never on his phone anymore and never out except for work. But I have good days where I love him to death. And our sex life has improved drastically but I just have other days i can’t stand to look at him. I think of all the lies he has told me and i wonder if he is really telling me the truth. I bring it up we argue but he insists he is not lying to me and that he was really stupid for what he did. Some days I just want to go but other days I feel like we do have a good relationship and maybe he screwed up. Has anyone had feeling like this after an affair?


Not sure if the OP is coming back but I'll bite.

He's a serial cheater. I'll eat my hat - and everyone else's here on Talk About Marriage - if this guy has REALLY had an epiphany and has suddenly become a choir boy. * Because serial cheaters don't magically stop what they're doing. * Like your husband, they just put on a performance for you of how they've turned a page and become the man you always wanted him to be. Lying comes as naturally to them as breathing does.

You'll see. You'll catch him again. It may take a while because they learn how to be just a little more sneaky each time they're caught, but you'll eventually catch him again.

You honestly have a better chance of shaking hands with Jesus than you do of a serial cheater suddenly reforming JUST because you caught him. They simply learn to become more skilled at sneaking and lying is all. They'll tell you virtually *anything* you want to hear to avoid being dragged into divorce court = which is exactly what he's doing with his steaming pile of bull**** about how 'stupid' he was back then and how he so _regrets_ all that fun he had and how he's a one-woman man, now. What a crock of camel ****.

My two bits - I'd trust a poisonous snake more than I'd trust him.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Related to @personofinterest's post, I try to think of forgiveness as relinquishing my right to get even. Other decisions depend on the details...


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

sunsetmist said:


> Related to @personofinterest's post, I try to think of forgiveness as relinquishing my right to get even. Other decisions depend on the details...


and here I thought "living well is the best revenge."


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

NextTimeAround said:


> and here I thought "living well is the best revenge."


Hey, you are right! Recently, a friend said, "You didn't even have a bobble after your divorce." I just looked at her and smiled.

Living well was, is, and forevermore shall be the best revenge--but to me it is a mindset. Actually, to me, forgiveness is not really about revenge or getting even, but some say that--and i just did, didn't I, but on reflection: Forgiveness is for me--do I snatch it back sometimes, SURE. Does my heart have occasional pain, yup. I wish I had not wasted my love and devotion on someone who did not want it, but I can't change that. However, I can/could love life, become a better person and strive to do so...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lola416 said:


> So I was on here before my husband was a cheater with girls from work always claimed it was less than what most affairs are...never really knew the truth but he is convincing...anyway I had to make the choice stay or go. We have 2 kids together and have been married for 19 years. So o decided to stay he really tried to make up for this. We starting dating again and it was really nice. He always tells me he loves me never on his phone anymore and never out except for work. But I have good days where I love him to death. And our sex life has improved drastically but I just have other days i can’t stand to look at him. I think of all the lies he has told me and i wonder if he is really telling me the truth. I bring it up we argue but he insists he is not lying to me and that he was really stupid for what he did. Some days I just want to go but other days I feel like we do have a good relationship and maybe he screwed up. Has anyone had feeling like this after an affair?


What is he doing to fix his brokenness? Unless he does that I am afraid you will be back here again talking about his next affair.

These people don't think like you are I, they have to learn a whole new way of being, which usually requires being hyper focused about it. A kind of discipline like learning martial arts of something. It has to consume them for them to change. 

Just moving on most of the time guarantees it will happen again.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

One Eighty said:


> Interesting. I have many things in common with you. I now believe my WW is sorry for what she did. I finally feel she really gets it and wants to be with me long term. Our sex life is better than ever. I want to forgive her. I do love her.
> 
> But a LOT of the time just looking at her makes me full of anger and hate. For her and her AP. I think if the sight of someone makes you feel you can't stand to look at them, well then you have not forgiven.
> 
> Furthermore, I don't believe it is as easy as deciding to forgive and then it happens. Believe me, there is a big part of me that wants to put this thing behind me and get on with a good life with WW. I just can't do it. I think I will eventually forgive her. When I don't have to look at her or talk to her anymore. I'm sure I can forgive with that kind of distance. Even now I have compassion and empathy for her. I just need to get away from her so I stop hatting her at the same time.


Maybe some of your anger is about staying with her and how in doing so you lost some of the choice of the kind of life you wanted to have. One without cheating. Maybe this is why you want to get away. As long as you stay you lose your agency in a sense.

To me I believe in forgiving in the biblical sense. It means you don't expect payment for the dept, it doesn't mean that the pain, disappointment or even your weariness of them goes away. You can forgive a business partner who stole from you of the dept they stole but that doesn't mean you have to continue to stay in business with them. Getting to the point where it never happened may have to wait for the next world, at least in my mind.


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## m.t.t (Oct 5, 2016)

I'm not sure it is about forgiveness. It's about self-respect and boundaries. I'm no longer with my partner of some 23 years. Was the hardest thing have ever done for myself. But was the kindest, for both myself and my children. 

Whether you forgive him or not who needs the creeping feeling every so often that they are back to their old lying ways. These people are like children, they will get away with what they can. Of course, they are sorry but there is always an excuse. 

I'm back to the belief that you stuff up then that's it. Life is far too short. I've never been happier. I still talk to my ex, we have children but the freedom in not giving a damn what he is doing with his bits is like a cool drink on a hot day.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Lola, how are you? What will you do?


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## GoldenR (Jan 6, 2019)

I didn't forgive her. And I won't change my mind about that.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I forgave my cheating wife when she led me to believe it was a one-time mistake. When it was clear it was a lifelong "lifestyle" I clawed back that forgiveness.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

One Eighty said:


> For the longest time I have felt, not just hate, but a need for vengeance. Mostly for the OM but also a tiny bit for the WW as well. As I get closer to ending it with WW my thirst for vengeance is waning. I can't believe I would ever forgive the OM but maybe I won't have this thirst for revenge much longer.
> 
> I had one other significant other cheat on me. It was when I was in my early 20's. I was with this woman for two or so years before she had an exit affair. I thought I'd never forgive her. We had mutual friends and so I still saw her occasionally and I could not stand the sight of her. Then she moved very far away. A 20 hour drive away. I did not see her for over a year. Then I saw her, unexpectedly, in the hallway of a mutual friend's house. I took her in my arms and we kissed passionately. Then we stumbled/fell into the nearest bedroom and had the best sex we had ever had together.
> 
> We did not become a couple again and never even had sex again. But we are still email friends to this day. So I know what forgiveness feels like and am capable of it. I'm fairly certain that one day I will forgive WW. If I can get away from her for a while.


She was probably married at that point and didn't tell you. Ha. Typical. :grin2:

Actually, there is something in that point to think about. Say she was dating someone else that day. If that guy found out YOU would be the OM to him, now who do you think it would make more sense for him to be angry with?

I think that is kind of the point. Yes your OM is a ******* for what he did, but there is still the question of fidelity. The OM had none with you an therefor his responsibly was less apparent. Your wives was direct and simple. Which is why when people project their anger to the AP and not the spouse I think it is a form of rug-sweeping. 

I kind of see this like the guy who shoots and kills the store clerk and another one who is a part of the robbery but had no idea his partner was going to do that. Do they both have culpability, sure. Is one's blame much greater then the others? Sure.

For me staying together would not be a question of forgiveness but about who she is as a person, among other things. I have read too much on these boards and am now a true believer. 

Two things in my mind are just too consistent. First it takes a great amount of character to have a good marriage. Both people need it. Second people who have affairs lack a substantial amount of character. The risk reward factor, seems to me, to make the decision pretty obvious, even if they don't cheat again. 

Though I get it if your current circumstances prevent you from leaving right away. In my case I would then work to change the circumstances so leaving was possible. 

I have just never read any story even from the most successful ones in R, where I would want that marriage. There is just too much that goes along with the aftermath that is unappealing to me. 

Also having successfully fallen in love with someone else afterwords and even more so, I know there is always the potential for better, at least when there is the damage of adultery in the marriage.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

One Eighty said:


> She was single. I mean obviously I could not have know that for sure when we met that day in the hall. But I did still see her after and she was playing the field for a while. Single and loving it.
> 
> In that case I felt no anger towards the OM. He didn't even know I existed till I caught them in the act.
> 
> ...


I have not problem with crushing the other man. I think that is great. I hope he suffers as long as you do and then one day longer. 

However I'm sorry but I feel you fall into the same pattern that a lot of guys do who end up getting cheated on. Which is to take away the agency of your wife. There seems to be this tendency to infantilize them. I tell you this not to bash you but to warn you. There is not gown women alive, assuming there is no mental disability, who doesn't know exactly what she is doing when she is married and text with another man.

I ask you to think long an hard about what I am going to tell you next. She knew what she was doing. The only thing she didn't know and where she got tricked was in his long term intentions towards her. In other words she was tricked because she thought his intentions were true and would be long term, but she always knew that he had "romantic" intentions. And in that sense if his intentions were true she would have just ended up with him and your pain would not really have been a thought. You give her WAY to much credit. 

She had an affair because she wanted to. So when she is sulking and depressed because he tricked her the trick was using her only for sex, not a long term relationship. He did not trick her into the affair in the first place. I mean come on your doctor starts texting you off hours and you don't know what he wants. Is your wife brain damaged? Seriously dude all she had to do is block him. It's what you or I or any moral person would do. Again she had an affair because she wanted to. 

Look it would be easier for me not confront you with this and just let it go, but the truth is you will NOT be safe and will even hurt your potential for a good adult relationship if you continue to see any mate as someone who isn't completely accountable as an adult for every decision they make. You are just lying to yourself, and you can't have an authentic relationship if you don't allow yourself to face the truth. Yes it's scary to believe that people can be so awful but it's true. Better to face that truth but demand the do better if they want to earn the right to be with you. 

Also another way this kind of thinking plays out is, it allows you to discount poor treatment and poor behavior by your partner and attribute it to not being smart enough to know the difference. It's easier to do this as you don't have to confront them, but it's better to confront them early with the little things and establish a pattern of accountability in your relationship. It's better to do this with everyone in your life. Partly because it's a more honest relationship but also because it will weed out bad people. Sketchy people can't stand up to the scrutiny and will move on, those will integrity will welcome it.

Are you sure that some of this isn't because it's easier to avoid confrontation? Maybe you even have some doubt you are worthy? It's probably not my place to ask and that was a rhetorical question anyway, but it's something you might think about. 

Again not bashing you, it's just too clear from all my reading on these sites, thinking like this almost always leads to a partner who cheats or at least treats you poorly. For the very reason that I wrote about two paragraphs up, people with poor boundaries look for others who allow those boundaries. You need to expect and demand better. It's not too much to ask.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

One Eighty said:


> I know these two short bits get lost in the rest of the 7 paragraphs of why I hate the OM more. But its there. It is just not the point I was trying to make so it was brief. I hate them both but a sexual predator, I hate him more.


Was he a predator though? Again he wasn't her boss, he had no authority over her. She knew what she was doing so how was she preyed upon? He may use his career status as an aphrodisiac for some ****ty women but any women with a moral compass isn't going to go for it if she doesn't want to. 

That's the thing if it wasn't him it would have been someone else. Grown adults don't have affairs because they are tricked into them. That's just not how it works. Every affair happens because both parties have opportunity and they want to.

I get that it easier to believe this but it's not helpful. People who think this way often become insanely jealous for instance because they are always worried that their spouse can be tricked into an affair. But if you have a spouse of good character it's not going to happen. Even more so because if they are tempted they will be smart enough to remove that temptation. 

I only press the issue because all this stuff works together to effect your next relationship.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

One Eighty said:


> The medical profession recognizes that the doctor patient relationship is one that the patient is deemed to be unable to give meaningful consent. This is bc the doctor is trusted by the patient, trusted to look after their best interest. Trusted with being allowed to touch them. Trusted to know intimate facts about them, including about their personal life and their mobile phone number.
> 
> No? Never? A player that has done this 6 or more times, goes after a vulnerable person who has never done this before, I think there is something there that makes the player more culpable. A predator.
> 
> ...


 @One Eighty, you may not listen, you may not want to or be able too listen, but I hope you will try. 

Now for me, I really don't have a problem with causing the OM some grief, I kind of like it actually. 

I almost killed my ex's OM, many years ago, and to this day he would run if we ran into each other. Now I was younger and way more stupid, plus he was suppose the be a friend, but whatever. 

So, I don't have an issue with causing him problems. 

BUT.... You really need to get over the fact that your Ex WW was taken advantage of by this guy. She was not, she knew exactly what she was doing, she thought about it, hell she practically told you about it. 

She was, a poor little rich girl that thought she could get to the life that she really wanted. The fact that you married that, killed yourself to make as much money as you possibly could in order to play into that.... Brother, that is your fault. She may be in the top 1% of women, but no woman is worth that, ever. 

She did exactly what she wanted to, and she egged it on, she was not played. I used to be a player and yes it can happen to women, I know that. But she was not played. 

Where she was stupid was ever thinking that he would give up his wife, and all that money to be with her. Yes, in that respect she was stupid, as well as throwing away a good man that she had. 

This fallacy that you keep believing in is just that, a fallacy. You need to realize that. 

Maybe, you hanging on to this is the final step in your recovery and the silliness that you have been engaging in all of this time. Maybe if you finally let this particular lie go, you will actually start to heal from her affair. Maybe you guys will stay together, maybe you won't. Maybe you divorcing her, and everything that she has had to deal with over the years and concern about the future, well, maybe she has grown up a little, and then again maybe not. 

Whatever happens, you need to realize that your thoughts and feeling on this particular point about the OM are wrong. Yes, he is a POS. Yes, he may be a serial cheater. But at this point, it really does not matter. 

Your wife is the one that did this to you, she always was. Whether you can ever feel differently about her, one way or another is your choice and your struggle. 

But, you, with no concern for anyone else, YOU will not get better until you let this lie go.

And really man, you need to let it go for your own good...


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> Yes I understand the concept: just not so much the practical aspect...
> If my wife insulted me in some way, she apologised and I said I forgave her, she would expect me to act exactly like I was acting with her before...
> And if I wasn’t, from her point of view, it would look like I was still harbouring resentment.
> There’s something about this way of expressing what’s happening, that is not quite right...
> ...


Just because you forgive someone does not mean you act with them the same as before. If you were being really bitter towards here then you probably have not forgiven her. But if you were more touchy than you used to be when she said things to you that could be considered insults, that would be understandable.

If I forgive someone for cheating on me, that doesn't mean I trust them to not do it again. Therefore, I may or may not be able to remain married to them depending on how secure I feel based on our current interactions.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

I haven't read this whole thread but in case no one else has mentioned it, check out the book "Surviving an Affair" by Willard Harley.

What you are going through is very normal. You may forgive but you are still hurt and insecure in your current relationship. The book helps people establish boundaries and precautions that ensure another affair cannot happen. The theory is that once you feel truly secure in your current situation, if the marriage is currently good, you will shift your focus to your current happiness and fulfillment and naturally stop ruminating on the past betrayal. I know one part of it is that you have ONE conversation with your spouse where they openly and honestly answer every single question you have about the affair, no matter how gritty. Then you don't bring it up again. When there is vagueness, and you have the feeling you don't have the whole truth, it is virtually impossible to put it behind you. You want intimacy with your spouse and when they withhold this info it is the opposite of that.



Lola416 said:


> So I was on here before my husband was a cheater with girls from work always claimed it was less than what most affairs are...never really knew the truth but he is convincing...anyway I had to make the choice stay or go. We have 2 kids together and have been married for 19 years. So o decided to stay he really tried to make up for this. We starting dating again and it was really nice. He always tells me he loves me never on his phone anymore and never out except for work. But I have good days where I love him to death. And our sex life has improved drastically but I just have other days i can’t stand to look at him. I think of all the lies he has told me and i wonder if he is really telling me the truth. I bring it up we argue but he insists he is not lying to me and that he was really stupid for what he did. Some days I just want to go but other days I feel like we do have a good relationship and maybe he screwed up. Has anyone had feeling like this after an affair?


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

I totally agree is fully the WS responsibility to protect the M..and they failed, knowingly. 
However, knowing the AP could have been anyone, any person entering into an A with a married person is a POS...any adult knows better than to screw around with a married person, they are disrespecting that M, and is well known that even in some cases that can lead to severe bodily injury or loss of life!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Not sure if the OP is coming back but I'll bite.
> 
> He's a serial cheater. I'll eat my hat - and everyone else's here on Talk About Marriage - if this guy has REALLY had an epiphany and has suddenly become a choir boy. * Because serial cheaters don't magically stop what they're doing. * Like your husband, they just put on a performance for you of how they've turned a page and become the man you always wanted him to be. Lying comes as naturally to them as breathing does.
> 
> ...


I would add to this that even if he did have a epiphany and completely changed never to cheat again, I think that really is only a requirement as to if you should stay together. Meaning at the very least he should do this for you to get to the point where you are willing to make a choice. If not then the only safe choice is to divorce. 

Even still even if he was going to become the best husband ever after this point you still should make the decision what is the quality of your life going to be if you stay together. Lot's of times the damage is just too great, the choice to stay is to degrading. That is what the choice should be made from. Not remorse. Remorse is just a requirement.

Though you can forgive without staying.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> @One Eighty, you may not listen, you may not want to or be able too listen, but I hope you will try. ...


The reason why married people can never be played is because their fidelity is not their own to give. There is a hard stop that every married person knows where if you go beyond that you KNOW you are doing wrong. So whatever the person promises you, or says to you, or even however they make you feel, the point is that doesn't matter. You don't have a right to go there, not until you first brake the bond of fidelity by asking for a divorce.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

@One Eighty Just for context. As I work in the medical field. 
The law says if the woman says NO its rape!
Otherwise it's consensual.

It's on your wife. No one pried her legs apart.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

StillSearching said:


> @One Eighty Just for context. As I work in the medical field.
> 
> The law says if the woman says NO its rape!
> 
> ...


I think it gets a little gray maybe, I could be wrong...but I have heard of men overpowering women into sex, wh ile she is kinda saying no, no, but he keeps pressing on but she not strong enough to take a stance then they eventually give in and just do it because fear or rejection or whatever else 
I don't know what to call that, but I've read it and heard of it from young women too, happens a lot. 
I mean hell I think I read that at some primal biological level some women could even desire to be taken sometimes, forcefully even....so they wear sexy revealing clothes and makeup, and then a guy makes a move and he is really wanting her, then she is in a predicament.....
I get your point of no meaning no...but honestly human sexual interactions appear to be less black/white.....biological urges can be a b1tch to control properly...no excuse for any wrongful behavior thou..


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

CantBelieveThis said:


> I think it gets a little gray maybe, I could be wrong...but I have heard of men overpowering women into sex, wh ile she is kinda saying no, no, but he keeps pressing on but she not strong enough to take a stance then they eventually give in and just do it because fear or rejection or whatever else
> I don't know what to call that, but I've read it and heard of it from young women too, happens a lot.
> I mean hell I think I read that at some primal biological level some women could even desire to be taken sometimes, forcefully even....so they wear sexy revealing clothes and makeup, and then a guy makes a move and he is really wanting her, then she is in a predicament.....
> I get your point of no meaning no...but honestly human sexual interactions appear to be less black/white.....biological urges can be a b1tch to control properly...no excuse for any wrongful behavior thou..


Let me help you out with this... Yes you are wrong... 

I have done some terrible **** in my life, rape or coercion was never one of them... 

It is what it is...


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## niceguy47460 (Dec 23, 2018)

The cheaters don't want to lose what they have and don't want to give up the extra they are getting on the side . they know what they are doing is wrong but they don't care


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

niceguy47460 said:


> The cheaters don't want to lose what they have and don't want to give up the extra they are getting on the side . they know what they are doing is wrong but they don't care


Exactly why you should never stay with one.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> Let me help you out with this... Yes you are wrong...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whether am right or wrong is indifferent really, but this stuff really happens and if you define it as rape then of course it is wrong...way wrong...but does the law see it the same and does the affected person even report it as such?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

WorkingWife said:


> Just because you forgive someone does not mean you act with them the same as before. If you were being really bitter towards here then you probably have not forgiven her. But if you were more touchy than you used to be when she said things to you that could be considered insults, that would be understandable.
> 
> 
> 
> If I forgive someone for cheating on me, that doesn't mean I trust them to not do it again. Therefore, I may or may not be able to remain married to them depending on how secure I feel based on our current interactions.



I think there are too many personal definitions of the word forgiveness and it’s a very slippery term, enabling people to use it both ways to suit their decisions.
‘Forgive but never forget’: what does it actually mean in practice? (Rhetorical question).
‘I’m not angry with that person anymore but I always remember what they did. And what they did will always trigger me.’ You are just shifting the blame away from the person onto their action or the incident.
In every day use, that’s not how people use the word. The smaller the incident, the more likely the word forgiveness becomes synonymous with forgetting. 

For me, i think the reality is that bigger things are just not possible to fully forgive and cheating is not something that can ever be forgiven, even if one decides to remain together. That’s just the practicality and reality of it (for me). But it’s complicated and case specific. If I was beating my wife and she decided to cheat, to find her way out, that would be understandable (the cheating part). Or if she was really majorly miserable in some other way...
Still complicated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> I think it gets a little gray maybe, I could be wrong...but I have heard of men overpowering women into sex, wh ile she is kinda saying no, no, but he keeps pressing on but she not strong enough to take a stance then they eventually give in and just do it because fear or rejection or whatever else
> I don't know what to call that, but I've read it and heard of it from young women too, happens a lot.
> I mean hell I think I read that at some primal biological level some women could even desire to be taken sometimes, forcefully even....so they wear sexy revealing clothes and makeup, and then a guy makes a move and he is really wanting her, then she is in a predicament.....
> I get your point of no meaning no...but honestly human sexual interactions appear to be less black/white.....biological urges can be a b1tch to control properly...no excuse for any wrongful behavior thou..



Yeah that’s not going to go down well...

To save some headache: the law is quite clear in that if someone says no and you still continue, it’s still rape or assault. Whether she decides that she actually enjoyed it afterwards or whether you believe her verbal consent is just playing a hard to get tactic is irrelevant...
That’s a whole other topic though. Within a marriage, consensually ‘playing rape’ is quite common and yes, some women really enjoy those things...It can be a little bit ****ed up for men who don’t actually enjoy raping anyone (playfully or not...and 99% don’t) but it is what it is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

I said the law.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

I did. The problem is that you can forgive but not forget. Also once trust is broken it can never be the same since that person has proven that no matter what they said and vowed, they broke your trust. Also a lot of lying goes into cheating so how do you believe someone who admits that they are a liar? 

The way I looked at it was that even if my girlfriend was not cheating anymore, I still felt the same as if she was cheating. Every time she came home later or went shopping for hours on the weekend, etc., my heart was beating fast and I was getting angry. I figured it really did not matter if she was still cheating or not since it was immaterial to the way I was feeling. I felt the same either way so I left her for good. Turned out that she cheated on her next boyfriend and then her husband. 

While not 100% true, once a cheater, always a cheater seems to me a lot more the case than not. I saw it with our siblings and friends. I worked with a girl who had cheated her entire marriage despite two kids. She was caught and forgiven multiple times. As she told me, now that she knows her husband will not divorce her, she feels she has little to lose by cheating again. A few weeks of fighting and all is forgiven again. She got caught one day and the next she was calling her lover up to meet him in a motel. I know the guy she was cheating with so he told me. He asked her about her husband because he was caught in the back seat of his car with the other guy’s wife. She told him that she handled it and not to worry.

When a parent tells a child that they will be punished if they do something they are not supposed to do and then not punished when they do it, what kind of message does that send to the child? In any event, I just could not picture my life worrying about my girlfriend/wife cheating on me so best to start over with someone else. I did and been happily married for 46 years. My wife does not go out with her girlfriends to bars or clubs. She only goes to their houses with other girls to play cards or other games. We go out as a couple and with other couples. I do not hang out with the boys and never did once I got married. Sure my wife went shopping with a girlfriend and I had some lunches with my group of guy friends into my hobby, but that was it. We only hung with long married couples and can track each other with our iPhones if need be. 

I alway get a kick out of when one spouse gets bent out of shape when the other wants to look at their phone or computer. They see each other naked and have sex and yet, they draw the privacy line at their online activities. There is nothing I do that my wife cannot know about. Why should there be? If I can hide or lie about one area of my life, why not with the others too.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Vinnydee said:


> In any event, I just could not picture my life worrying about my girlfriend/wife cheating on me so best to start over with someone else. I did and been happily married for 46 years. .


But just fyi, I believe only about 20% of infidelity is discovered or confessed, so this means that unfortunately a lot of spouses go thru their entire marriage believing it was perfect and their spouse never would.
Yet one of the most initially shocking statements from almost every BS is "I never ever thought she/he would ever do this!"


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