# ladies, what does "independence" mean to you



## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

ladies, so many words have come up in discussion between my wife and i during our separation. one that came up was "independence." she thinks i'm too insecure for her independent nature. i don't think that's true but would like you input. what does independence mean to you? a quick description would be appreciated. i'm going back in and ask her what she means, but i wanted to get a little feedback first.
thanks.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

My wife is very independent so maybe I can give some insite. She doesn't need a lot of attention and can be smoother easier then most. She can call bs on me quickly. She isn't afraid to be alone, go back to college, or start a new job. She rarely argues with me over anything. She can easily make up her own mind and has her own opinions even if they differ from mine. She is scure with me doing my own thing and likes to do the same from time to time.

draconis


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## pandaprincess (Aug 22, 2008)

To me being independent means primarily having hobbies, friends and activities that I enjoy outside of my relationship. Just because I enjoy doing something doesn't mean he has to be there to enjoy it with me, ya know? But you're totally right in asking for a better definition from her- she could mean something completely different from what I mean.


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

the word came up again tonight. apparently my 11 yr old daughter has beenhaving conversations with mom about what's going on. the conclusion that was reached was that mom "needed time for herself" to become more independent. i'd love to encourage that, but i don't know if that's my role, is it? advise please.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

Giving her space to be her own person without someone she uses as a crutch.

draconis


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## justean (May 28, 2008)

to me independence. is the time i can appreciate to myself. without hubby and children, its not rowing, arguing, its not having to raise your voice. its not fighting yourself or n e 1 else. not having to organize. its not going to work to arrange or sort out issues. 
i go horse riding - its my peace and tranquility. mingling with nature and freedom. 
trust me on this one - your wife would not be the same , if you were not there, she has not broken free from you. otherwise she wouldnt be enjoying her freedom, - a bit of reverse psychology.
when your there its easy to feel like you want independence.
but when your really split up and not seeing eachother - its much harder to contemplate independence. because thats a different path.
neither you or your wife are emotionally separated from eachother.


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## samantharose (Aug 28, 2008)

The kind of independence a person separates from a marriage for, is the kind that should have been established before getting married in the first place. Same thing with marrying too young before people have their fun, sew their oats etc. IMO

I am an independent wife and to me that means that I am my own person. I have my own secrets, thoughts, ideas, opinions etc. But I enjoy being dependent on my husband for a happy marriage and security and as a partner. I know I can do as I wish with the support of my husband (as long as it's decent). 

If I needed to leave my husband to be more independent, why did I get married in the first place? What type of "independence" was missing from the marriage that I can acquire outside of the marriage? I can only think of one thing.


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

samantharose,
you seem to be implying another sexual partner. i have full confidence that is not the case, and i'm not blind.

there was lots of independence missing from this relationship, as i was a bit of a controlling fellah. she liked that in a lot of ways (her words) but there were issues with it as well.

independence; she wanted to be an author, now has completed a novel. independence: wanted to know she could "make it on her own."; she can, working two jobs. independence: to spend time with her friends; she hadn't seen her best friend from high school in two years; she does now.

understand, these "lacking" things were not necessarily my fault, but it's easy to blame the alcoholic, because so many problems WERE my fault.


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## carmaenforcer (Mar 7, 2008)

Because you are/where an alcoholic gives her the right to do whatever she likes, this is your own opinion. 
Then you not only know, but have accepted "your role" in her life.

Independence, fear of commitment, selfishness, all the same thing.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to be single but your estranged Wife should call a spade a spade and not try to hide behind your well founded and probably justified insecurities.

It's one of those "which came first? The chicken or the egg?" things right.
Did you push her away with your insecurities or did her independent spirit make you insecure. Not that it matters much because she is in full control of your fate as a "relationship" but that is where the truth is.


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

interesting questions, i think i pushed her away with my insecurities. i was not aware of an independent spirit.

i've never heard insecurities called "justified" before. my insecurities were really stupid in retrospect and seen through the clarity of sobriety. i truly can say that she has never ever given me one reason to believe she was having an affair, which is the basis of my insecurities.

i don't think she's hiding behind my insecurities and they don't seem to be well-founded. what makes you think they are well-founded?


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## carmaenforcer (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't have enough back ground on your particular situation to claim anything. I do see that you are obviously hurting over your situation and it looks like you may be falling into blaming yourself faze, that a lot of dumpee's go through. 
We hurt about the break-up and almost like magic, we clearly see our faults, focusing on them so much that we start to loose sight of what they did wrong. The truth is, that it takes two to make things work and no one is without fault.

I trust you when you say that she never gave you any real reason to be insecure and that you where the one to push her away with that and your drinking problem.

We all sometimes have to hit rock bottom before being able to work our way back up again.

Getting control over one of your issues, the drinking problem I mean, is a great start, but if she wasn't the cause of your insecurities then that is something that you should figure out before trying to have a relationship with anyone else in the future.


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

carmaenforcer,

you said:

>>>Getting control over one of your issues, the drinking problem I mean, is a great start, but if she wasn't the cause of your insecurities then that is something that you should figure out before trying to have a relationship with anyone else in the future.<<<

understand this: i am working diligently on repairing this relationship, and have no thoughts of "trying to have a relationship with anyone else." my wife is giving me a hell of a chance. we spend more time together now than we ever did before, movies, drive in theater, dinner, just hanging out, picnics, sunday drives. i'm not making this up. this is really happening.

i have discovered a great resource, a workbook that my counselor suggested called "ten days to self esteem." our goal is to find the causes of my insecurities.


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## freeshias4me (Dec 4, 2007)

Well, I sometims wish I had more independence from my husband too. Before I was married all I wanted more than AYTHING was to be married, have someone to love and care about, etc etc....
But now that I am married, I realize he has far different ideas than me. 
He grew up in a household where all the family members were together at night after the days' work was over. 
Me on the other hand, have most of my energy in the evenings, and would looooooove to go out and eat, or shop, or visit friends, etc. 
I am stuck between keeping HIM happy by staying home, or getting some BALLS to go out once in a while to do the things I like.
(To answer what you may be thinking, I'm too busy in the daytime to do those things...LOL. Watching over my little one, and doing grocery shopping, cooking, cleaning, etc.)
To answer your question, independence to me, would just be FEELING FREE to be myself, that if I wanted to do or say something, I could. has NOTHING to do with how much you care about someone, beacuse you could always have your "alone time"/ "cuddle time" another time.
I like to feel I could take off on a whim and do what I like and go where I like, as long as it's withing reason. (Not abandoning your responsibilites).


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## carmaenforcer (Mar 7, 2008)

*freeshias4me* You stated



> He grew up in a household where all the family members were together at night after the days' work was over.


That sounds great to me, like a "happy" "family"...

Some if not all of the other descriptions by women of what independence means sound more like these women want to have their cake and eat it too. Do whatever they want, not that they are necessarily doing something bad or against the relationship, but want to do stuff without being questioned about it by their men after, mystery, grey areas,and basically allowing themselves the right to be selfish without feeling guilty.
It's very simple to achieve this, just leave your men and stop trying to have it both ways, having someone at home that loves you but being cool with you putting him aside when it suits your "mood"... 

Single Mom's have no man to answer to or any limits on being selfish.

*voivod*

It's great that you are working on your relationship with your Wife, I guess I must have missed when you stated that before.
Hope you get it right this time, your Wife is a lucky lady to finally get her way.


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

carmaenforcer,
you said:
>>>Hope you get it right this time, your Wife is a lucky lady to finally get her way.<<<

i kinda don't get this. finally get her way??? she agreed to bless me by marrying me, i don't think me being such a d-bag all these years was something she bargained for. finally get her way means being treated like the lady she is is what i hope you meant. she is a fabulous mother, caretaker, wife, etc. 

this woman worked two jobs about 70 hours a week while i was in the hospital recovering. AND found time every single day to come and see me, help me with physical therapy, hold my family together and save me financially. she got me into the top stroke recovery hospital in the region when my insurance company was writing me off, had the TOP neurosurgeon in the region on standby while my brain was bleeding out for three days, i could go on. but "get her way" is something that i owe her. if i can't give her real peace, integrity and a sense of independence (she IS NOT gonna run around on me, man) then there is something wrong with me as a man.

i'm devoted to this woman. she deserves the BEST ME that i can give her. bottom line.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

voivod said:


> i'm devoted to this woman. she deserves the BEST ME that i can give her. bottom line.


Well said, voivoid.

Good post--this one got me thinking because I don't equate independence with seeing other men at all. I have always been financially independent but emotionally? Not so much. In thinking of my own independence, I think it's more of wondering if I can be truly happy independent of my husband and that is where I struggle. 

When you rely on your spouse to be the keeper of your happiness it places a huge burden on them and may cause you to build an emotional wall to avoid being hurt or to set the bar lower (ie put up with behavior that goes against your beliefs) so you don't lose them. At some point, you end up feeling resentful, unappreciated, unloved but the dependence you have on that person keeps you there. This is where working on confidence, dealing with insecurities and really feeling good about who you are can change how you relate to others for the better.

For me, it's looking at myself and really evaluating who I am and what makes me happy. I cannot separate that from my family because that is what makes me happy but learning that I can only control what I do, how I react, I've learned that I can be independent within my family and my role as wife and mother is more than taking care of the family but also taking care of myself and not feeling guilty about it. Part of that is setting expectations and standing my ground so I don't feel worn down.

I think it's natural for people to go through points in their life where they evaluate where they are at and whether they are happy...life is too short not to. Independence to me really is "am I living my life in a fulfilling way?"


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## freeshias4me (Dec 4, 2007)

"these women want to have their cake and eat it too. Do whatever they want, not that they are necessarily doing something bad or against the relationship, but want to do stuff without being questioned about it by their men after, mystery, grey areas,and basically allowing themselves the right to be selfish without feeling guilty."

Carmaenforcer, you completly have the OPPOSITE view as to what I intended to say!
I do not mind if my husband knows what I am doing or when...
And I am not out doing and saying selfish things...!
For instance... Say I wanted to take a course in flower arranging, which I DO want to do.
I have the independent spirit in which I can do this, and I don't have to be hanging off my man all day long. He is the opposite. If I told him I wanted to take the course at a time when he'd be home, he wouldn't like it, because he is dependent on me for companionship. Allready when we were dating, he asked e to quit my part-time job, because it had a few evening shifts, and he wanted me to be there with him in the evenings.
THAT is what I mean by independence...Not needing to be with someone 24/7 to feel fulfilled...


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## Rob Murray (Nov 3, 2008)

Oh, I can give you a real zinger on "independence". Here is independence to my wife:

My wife and I have been married almost 25 years and I have been the sole provider for the last 19 years. I am retired at 48 and we have three kids in college. We are empty nesters now.

It seems now that the kids are out of the house that her interest are now the third party in our relationship. She LOVES to kayak, I couldn’t care less about it.

Recently she planned an overnight camping trip with one of her girlfriends and I was fine with that. I told her I was going on a motorcycle trip while she was gone and she let into me that I was just doing that because she was taking this trip.

I told her that was not so but I canceled my trip and stayed home, two of the kids came by from school and I never even got to throw a leg over the bike.

Last year (07) I had planned a trip to see the Northern Lights, something I’ve wanted to do for years. She let me know right quick that she was planning a trip to the Green River in Utah to go kayaking with her friends so she could not go see the Northern Lights with me. I was very upset that she had planned this trip this far in advance and had not even told me.

It started out as an all girl trip then morphed into a trip with two couples (not married) and two single guys. I told her I was very uncomfortable with this. She told me the trip was scheduled around her time (she does not work, hasn’t in 19 years) I am not saying raising kids is NOT work, just that she hasn’t had a formal job. So since the kids have left the roost, her entire calender is free.

By her telling me the trip was planned around “her time off” I begrudgingly said Ok. I said this even after I had severe reservations about her being in the wilderness and I am talking real wilderness here, only sat phones work, helo rescues, etc.. she was fine, everything was on go. She seemed oblivious about my feelings. All she was focused on was her trip. My feelings and thoughts were never on her radar best I could/can tell.

I then told her my REAL feeling that “when” not if word got out that my wife had been kayaking with a group that included single men conclusions would be made about the single men/women out in the wilderness. True or not, I would be made to feel like a chump (we live in a small town, word WOULD get around).

Perhaps I am off base here but I sure would see the potential for hankey-pankey as an outside observer even if it weren’t my spouse we are talking about here. I have no doubt rumors would flow and I’d feel like a fool. Until I revealed my true feelings she really didn’t care or was unaware of how the trip would be perceived locally once word got out.

I felt it rather strange that she would place the disappointment of a group of strangers by her not going over my feelings of betrayal of our relationship and my standing in the community. My son and I went out west for his high school graduation (just a father and son thing) and even he, at 18, realized that this just wouldn’t look right. I asked him if he had told his mother this, he hadn’t but shared it with me with no prompting whatsoever from me.

After I told her how I really felt and she canceled the trip. She just got back 3 months +/- ago from a 6 day all girl trip on a river here in FL. She has been gone the past 5 days on another trip and is planning another 6 day trip for spring 08.

She did all this after us having a long talk and me telling her that I came to the conclusion that kayaking was the third person in our marriage and she had free reign to do what she wanted in that regard. At this point I have completely acceded to her kayaking.

Boy did she jump on that, now the Green River trip is back on for 2010, all girl this time so far.

I DO NOT like being alone for days at a time and she knows this yet she goes anyway. I have no real hobbies except for reading, riding motorcycles and traveling. My wife and I have traveled a lot and we get along well while on the road.

However, I really don’t like to travel alone and don’t like large groups of people. I am not one to wallow in my pity. I am just sad that she KNOWS that I don’t like being alone but chooses to go anyway.

I have come to the conclusion that I will just have to start doing things alone. None of my friends can take off on a whim, they have jobs. My wife and I can and do, but she kayaks a lot without me. So far I have just stayed home and puttered around.

Not anymore. This past weekend I went to a party while she was gone and was rather surprised at the smiles a well dressed middle aged man could garner at a local watering hold. I have/had no intention to cheat, I just flat out got tired of reading, watching the tv and fooling around the house, I had to get out.

Anyway, sorry for the ramble. I am just kinda sad that my wife has put her hobby on par (or above) with our relationship. We still do things together and I do not suspect her of infidelity, however, from what I have read, if a marriage is rocky and you have two people that share the same passion (like kayaking) that is a recipe for disaster if they are put into certain circumstances and I can’t think of one worse than the Green River trip. I can only hope for the best as we have both committed to our marriage for life.

I could go on and on but enough for know.

Thanks for letting me vent.

RM


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## *Aceso* (Oct 25, 2008)

Fair enough, Rob, if you don't like kayaking but did you ever give it a go? And what happened to compromise in a relationship? I am a firm believer that everyone is allowed to have their own interests and partners should sometimes join in. You don't have to go with her every time but once a year isn't going to kill you. And you need to be more independent so that you don't have to sit at home and watch TV like you do now. 
I have always been into trucks and 4X4 of roading and my husband was into fast street cars. He never wanted to go with me and he used to complain if I was going to go on my own because there might be other men around as it is mostly guy's sport. Anyway, after I smashed his pride and joy Ford Falcon XR8 (and just for a record, it wasn't on purpose ) he drove my Land Rover for few days and fell in love with it. By the time he got money from insurance company all he could talk about was how he was going to get himself a 4x4 and now he's a proud owner of Jeep. He is still to take it off road but I know it's just matter of time with summer coming up. He bought a new tent so I know we will be off camping this summer. 

But back to being independent....It doesn't mean that a woman wants to be single. She just doesn't want to lose "herself". She doesn't want to be wife and mother only because once kids move out what is she left with? 
Every woman needs to have "me" time without feeling guilty. She shouldn't rely on her man for her every need and her happiness and if possible, she should be financialy independent. 
I used to be independent before I met my husband. I had a job, I traveled all over, I did whatever I wanted without having to rely on anyone but things changed when I got married and our first child came along. I was a stay at home mum and my husband being controlling as he is/was slowly I lost "myself". He worked so it was HIS money and as I was a SAHM I was expected to do everything for him and the baby. I hit rock bottom and then we had our daughter and things got worse. I was diagnosed with Graves' on top of it all so I just set at home feeling sorry for myself. Then the funniest thing happened. I am not the most spiritual person I know but one day I got up and was feeling sorry for myself. I cried like I never cried before and I thought "God, please give me a sign that I will get out of this rut and things will get better." As I was thinking that postman dropped something in my letterbox so I went to get it and my jaw hit the ground when I saw what it was. It was a book called "You can do it if you dare". It was addressed to a guy next door but put into my letterbox by mistake. 
And to cut a long story short, I went out the next day and got a job which led to my current job (my dream job) and I felt better about myself and little by little I am changing. I am back to being an independent woman I once was. What I mean by that is that I love my husband but I don't rely on him to make me happy or make my life better and if he wasn't around I would be ok as I have so many good friends and I earn enough money to support me and the kids. That's what "independent" means.


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

Void, 

why don't you have her write down what independence means to her, Ask her what she is looking for, so you can give it to her.


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## Rob Murray (Nov 3, 2008)

*Aceso* said:


> Fair enough, Rob, if you don't like kayaking but did you ever give it a go? And what happened to compromise in a relationship? I am a firm believer that everyone is allowed to have their own interests and partners should sometimes join in. You don't have to go with her every time but once a year isn't going to kill you. And you need to be more independent so that you don't have to sit at home and watch TV like you do now.
> I have always been into trucks and 4X4 of roading and my husband was into fast street cars. He never wanted to go with me and he used to complain if I was going to go on my own because there might be other men around as it is mostly guy's sport. Anyway, after I smashed his pride and joy Ford Falcon XR8 (and just for a record, it wasn't on purpose ) he drove my Land Rover for few days and fell in love with it. By the time he got money from insurance company all he could talk about was how he was going to get himself a 4x4 and now he's a proud owner of Jeep. He is still to take it off road but I know it's just matter of time with summer coming up. He bought a new tent so I know we will be off camping this summer.
> 
> But back to being independent....It doesn't mean that a woman wants to be single. She just doesn't want to lose "herself". She doesn't want to be wife and mother only because once kids move out what is she left with?
> ...


I have tried Kayaking more times than you can possible imagine. I grew up on the bay, my wife grew up on a farm. I have been "river ratting" by myself and with friends since I was 10 years old, seeing gators, pelican, etc.. is nothing new to me. To her it is and that is fine.

Did you not read the part where I said I am THROUGH with the pity party. I am going to lead my own life and be in charge of my own happiness. I am already lining a trip to the Rockies up for next spring, late spring after most of the snow has melted but who knows. I followed a snow blower June 2nd in CO this year.

You don't find it atypical in a relationship that a wife would plan an 11 day expedition kayaking trip in the wilderness 6 months in advance without at least running it by her husband? 

She came home last night. We leave Thursday for 2 weeks +/-, of just fooling around, wherever we are, that's where we will be. No real agenda.

Oh, and I see you earn your own money. I just signed my wife's payroll for the entire month about 10 minutes ago. How independent could/would you be without that job? Hey, according to your post, maybe she needs a job to get that feeling of "independence" back. I could live with that. Heck, I could take her off the payroll of one of my business and give one of my managers and a secretary a raise PLUS myself, win, win and win!!

In all fairness, I don't want my wife to work, she has volunteered to, but why should she. I have no need to work, why burden her (she does not WANT to work) as this would put a real kink in our and her free time. I sign my check and hers. I own two businesses, both are on autopilot. My manager has signing authority on certain accounts so we could disappear for years if we wanted to. 

Believe me, I had ephinany this weekend. If you think for one moment I am going to have any pity parties while she is gone, I don't think you read my post in it's entirety.

RM


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