# Compare NMMNG to MMSLP



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

It seems to me, from what I have read here, these books share common stuff, but MMSLP has a lot more ... well everything we have been discussing. What I think I see:








For those of you who have read both, do you care to compare for us? What does MMSLP have the NNMNG doesn't and vice versa?

Thanks.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

NMMNG was way more help to me than MMSLP. That said, I think NMMNG is not the perfect book for every SSM situation.

NMMNG is for a specific kind of guy with a specific set of issues. MMSLP, aside from the working out stuff really didn't seem at all similar to my mind.

Could I possibly use some more acronyms?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> NMMNG was way more help to me than MMSLP. That said, I think NMMNG is not the perfect book for every SSM situation.
> 
> NMMNG is for a specific kind of guy with a specific set of issues. MMSLP, aside from the working out stuff really didn't seem at all similar to my mind.
> 
> Could I possibly use some more acronyms?


You have acronyms. But I have a Venn diagram. It is neat to learn this stuff.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> NMMNG was way more help to me than MMSLP. That said, I think NMMNG is not the perfect book for every SSM situation.
> 
> NMMNG is for a specific kind of guy with a specific set of issues. MMSLP, aside from the working out stuff really didn't seem at all similar to my mind.
> 
> *Could I possibly use some more acronyms?*


you mean, CIPUSMA?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SomebodyS, 
MMSL is a lot more focused on the type of stuff explained in the link below. And explains it well. 

There is also some gender adversarial stuff in MMSL. For instance:
- the theme that women who have numerous partners before marrying are damaged goods
and
- the use of tactics that, while effective in the short term violate the golden rule 

Where To Start If You’re Lost With Women, Part 3: What Are Women Attracted To? | MatingGrounds





NobodySpecial said:


> It seems to me, from what I have read here, these books share common stuff, but MMSLP has a lot more ... well everything we have been discussing. What I think I see:
> View attachment 34330
> 
> 
> ...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Agree with Fozzy.

NMMNG is focused on the concept of forging what I have seen referred to as, 'a well integrated man'.

The books 'How To Hold Onto Your N.U.T's and 'Way of the Superior Man' take this concept of being better than you are; more aware, more in touch, more engaged, just ... more. 

NMMNG helps you define the issues you may be looking at if you tend to fit that profile. It's a starting point.

The other books help a man take responsibility for himself, and his actions. That can certainly include how he deals with a partner or members of the opposite sex.

Take a classic Nice Guy, and give him MMSLP without the context of cleaning up your side of the street and self improvement and you create exactly the kind of individual that the other thread is talking about.

MMSLP is focused on attraction and sex. It's like building a sweet deck with a pool and jacuzzi but your home is a yak skin yurt.

I believe it's niche, is painfully simple. He talked to guys like a guy. Men found that appealing. Consequently some of the 'guy talk' was hyperbolic and divisive. That and he was the first that I am aware of, in terms of penning it to a book, the concept of mongamous, LTR, or married game.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

:iagree:

I once described it similarly. MMSLP is more about cleaning up the front of the store. NMMNG is about teaching you how to keep your books and organize the stock room.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I read both. I really had a hard time with NMMNG covert contract concepts, because I was not doing that. MMSLP-MAP resonated with me, the get in shape and attitude adjustments were what I needed to do. I think both can be useful, either alone or together. They are quick reads, so do both and take the parts you find useful, discard the rest.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

naiveonedave said:


> They are quick reads, so do both and take the parts you find useful, discard the rest.


Which has pretty much always been the mantra around here, but it doesn't prevent others from taking offense.

I advocate that a man undertaking this journey, NOT share what he is doing with his wife.

It's a lose/lose scenario.

If she already has/is losing respect and attraction, making her aware of your self-improvement makes all of it seem 'inauthentic'.

While women agree that self improvement is a good thing, depending upon what the self improvement consists of determines what light they see it in; positive and bond building, or negative, manipulative and fake.

I have consistently tried to emphasize that there is very little that is 'fake' about it. A man either learns, adapts and executes the concepts and behaviors, or he doesn't.

You don't 'fake' knowing how to speak a different language.

You either learn to speak the language or you don't

I know of very few MEN here, or IRL that have consumed these products and have turned into raging D-bags as a result.

I've read some of the Reddit stuff since FW posted it, I used to read MMSL forums and NMMNG forums. 

Those are a mixed bag.

I DO believe that there are guys who will not, and cannot get it. Whether they simply accept this fact or decide to get angry or self-pitying as a result is out of my wheel house of concern.

Red Pill used to be more like gun ownership.

There are active and responsible folks.

There are BS crazy fringe folk.

There are folks that rage against all of it.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

As soon as my testing cycle is done and I can read for pleasure again I plan to read both.

From what I have read about these books here NMMNG may have been very helpful in my marriage but through life lessons I doubt I'm in danger of ever being the nice guy again lol

But I hope to learn from both so we will see


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deej,
My favorite is the guy who says: But I have to tell my W what I'm doing because she's going to see me reading the book. 

Hearing that, my predict-o-meter jumps to the line separating 'fail' from 'epic fail' on the dial. 






Deejo said:


> Which has pretty much always been the mantra around here, but it doesn't prevent others from taking offense.
> 
> I advocate that a man undertaking this journey, NOT share what he is doing with his wife.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deej,

I no longer engage with folks who lack the traits needed to succeed. 

My decision tree is pretty simple. 

Probability of success = 1/N (where N equals the number of threads the person starts in an attempt to get help)




Deejo said:


> Which has pretty much always been the mantra around here, but it doesn't prevent others from taking offense.
> 
> I advocate that a man undertaking this journey, NOT share what he is doing with his wife.
> 
> ...


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Dr Glover said in NMMNG to share with your wife what you're reading. It's been pretty much regarded by some as the one glaring error in the book. 

I think it depends on what the motivations are for reading the book. If you're just trying to make your spouse see that you're "improving" then yes, it's a huge mistake. If you come at it from a better mindset that you're going to improve yourself regardless of the outcome--I don't see that it makes that much difference. When all is said and done, the better you will speak for itself.

My wife knows I read self help books--i have a stack of them. I don't make a spectacle of it, nor do I hide it.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

MMSLP is great for anybody who wants to work on their marriage on their own or up their dating life.

NMMNG is more for people who want to work on themselves to tackle the problems from childhood/adolescence that is impacting the dating life.

The first is quick, the latter is in depth and more personal.


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## Julius Beastcavern (May 11, 2015)

pragmaster said:


> MMSLP is great for anybody who wants to work on their marriage on their own or up their dating life.
> 
> NMMNG is more for people who want to work on themselves to tackle the problems from childhood/adolescence that is impacting the dating life.
> 
> The first is quick, the latter is in depth and more personal.


I wouldn't say MMSLP is quick by any stretch of the imagination, its a long disciplined road of self improvement


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Wolf1974 said:


> As soon as my testing cycle is done and I can read for pleasure again I plan to read both.
> 
> From what I have read about these books here NMMNG may have been very helpful in my marriage but through life lessons I doubt I'm in danger of ever being the nice guy again lol
> 
> But I hope to learn from both so we will see


Wolf, I actually recommend Models by Mark Manson over MMSLP.

Personal choice, having witnessed the vitriol that MMSLP can generate around here.

Has all of the good, and from my perspective, none of the negative. That said, I'm sure many women would still consider it a pickup book, and be offended.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> Deej,
> My favorite is the guy who says: But I have to tell my W what I'm doing because she's going to see me reading the book.
> 
> Hearing that, my predict-o-meter jumps to the line separating 'fail' from 'epic fail' on the dial.





MEM11363 said:


> Deej,
> 
> I no longer engage with folks who lack the traits needed to succeed.
> 
> ...


Right there with you MEM. They are relatively easy to spot. 

I have always preferred the moniker 'better man' over Red Pill. I understand the Matrix analogy but it does indeed often feel juvenile. The results aren't ... but crowing about the evils of women and/or your personal conquests online certainly is.

I do think the concept needs a new handle, but calling it purple pill seems like a non-starter.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Deejo. What is a better man? I mean, I have reasons to ask. How to you remain who you are AND change yourself into a better man? I mean, you can like what you like and the hell with what anyone else thinks. And have integrity and character. But what does that mean to a teen aged boy? (Guessing my interest here?) If you want to raise a better man before he has to struggle to get there on his own, what does that look like?


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Call it NZT-48 instead.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

NMMNG - I think was a legitimately insightful and revolutionary book that describe a specific guy and his specific problems. I actually went to a weekend workshop run by Dr Glover and it was eye opening. There was a guy that had been married 4 months but still hadn't had sex, guys who were terrified of women. Dr Glovers kind of a f*cked up dude, but he's smart and trail blazed with his work on nice guys.

I've skimmed MMSL - To me it's a repackaging of the various books on being sexually attractive. I think Dr Glover would consider some of MMSL to be 'nice guy' behaviour in that the book is about things you can do to be more attractive, which is inherently about gaining a women's approval. NMMNG is about transending the need for a women's approval. 

But my bias is that I hate all the sex rank, get fit, follow these rules to be attractive sh*t. I find the whole thing manipulative. I also didn't dig any of the David Deida "Way of the Superior Man" stuff. That book was like a ranting lunatic on a soap box dispensing advice with absolutely nothing to back it up.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I'll let Deejo answer for himself on the "better man" question, but I would NOT recommend MMSLP to a teenage boy. The majority of them are not going to have the emotional maturity to weed out the garbage.

I'd only recommend NMMNG to a kid who's already exhibiting nice guy tendencies, or possibly who's parents fit the mold of producing a nice guy (overbearing or over-involved mother with ineffective or absent father).


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

No no. I was not thinking of recommending either book. I am just cogitatin'.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

My opinion (worth it's weight in platinum of course)--what constitutes a better man is highly subjective according to the nature of the man and what he wants out of life.

For me, being a better man means being more in tune with myself, being self-sufficient, healthy and supportive of my wife and family. In short, everything I was failing at miserably for several years.

For another man, they may view being "better" as ripped abs, a porsche, and bedpost notches that look like it was left by a chainsaw.

I may succeed at being a better man in my own eyes, but not measure up to someone else's definition.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

NobodySpecial said:


> Deejo. What is a better man? I mean, I have reasons to ask. How to you remain who you are AND change yourself into a better man? I mean, you can like what you like and the hell with what anyone else thinks. And have integrity and character. But what does that mean to a teen aged boy? (Guessing my interest here?) If you want to raise a better man before he has to struggle to get there on his own, what does that look like?


Well that is a loaded question. I mean that in a good way.

I have a 12 year old son on the autism spectrum. I believe what I role model for him to be very important. It also helps that ex ' s partner is a good man.

I have said it numerous times, I believe in having a code of conduct, an operational directive, a standard to which you hold yourself accountable.

And importantly, you do it.

More importantly, you own it when you don't do it.

Knowing what I expect from myself and what others can expect from me has a big impact.

If you were to ask your son to define a code of conduct for himself, I'd wager it would tell you a great deal about how he sees himself.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SomebodyS,

Becoming a better person starts with an honest self assessment:

From foundation to the top: 

Foundation: traits 
First floor: skills 
Second floor: knowledge 

You can work around the foundation, provided you have an honest picture of it. Skills and knowledge are mainly about applying time and determination. 




=NobodySpecial;12636746]Deejo. What is a better man? I mean, I have reasons to ask. How to you remain who you are AND change yourself into a better man? I mean, you can like what you like and the hell with what anyone else thinks. And have integrity and character. But what does that mean to a teen aged boy? (Guessing my interest here?) If you want to raise a better man before he has to struggle to get there on his own, what does that look like?[/QUOTE]


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

I read both and a few others. I liked MMSLP mainly because of the blue collar type of language it was written in. 
I was pretty much a roommate and tried all the wrong things to get my wife to want to be around me (including sex). I would hover around her all the time, I was doing anything she wanted me to do and what was the result?? Just more of the same!!
After all my reading, I decided I'll work in my happiness. Obviously she didn't give a ray's a$$ if I was happy or not. I started lifting with a family friend, took my health more seriously (type 2 diabetes), and doing things I felt like doing. I figured, she didn't really care if I was around anyways.
One day I decided to give myself a timeline to remain married to her. I said to myself, if by this time next year, there are no improvements, I'll file for D. I wasn't just going sit sit idly by and wait for changes though. I decided I wanted to be someone that she would want to be with. I turned my focus inward and work on my issues. I stopped being a doormat for the world to wipe it's feet on. I chose to use compassion and understanding instead of anger or P/A behavior. I started actually talking to my wife but more importantly, I start to actively listen to her.
I wanted a life and family that in 20-30 years in the future ,I could look back and be proud of instead of having regrets for giving up. 
I took the lead in this, why? Someone had to, so I figured it may as well be me. 
I took the time to do more thing with/for my kids. I started to get things done instead of putting them off forever. I stopped letting my wife's bad moods get me in a bad mood.
Things did improve between my wife and I, but nowhere near what they were in the past. It didn't phase me. I wanted to be the best me for my family and myself.
It started paying off. I was getting better jobs from my boss, tenants in the buildings I look after would compliment my work to the property managers, my kids were more respectful of me and my wife started to like the improved me. 
I stopped letting little things get under my skin and just kept forging the improved me.
7 months after I started my transformation, my wife let herself believe it's for real. That is the moment our marriage changed for the better. I haven't slowed down any either. I have to remind myself everyday that I'm fortunate to have a wife and kids who love and respect me as I do them.
My wife has seen my changes and has started to deal quietly with her issues. She is more aware that as funny as it may seem, men DO have feelings. She is actively losing weight and exercising. She started joining me on my walks and talking about our marriage and our future.
Our sex life is now the best it has ever been in the 30 years we've been together. We talk more than we ever have and spend quality time together and with the kids. 
I've read the other thread condemning MMSLP and it's author. Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I read it, I enjoyed it, and I used some of it to improve myself. I do however know how to filter out what is right and wrong. I don't in any way try to dominate my wife as I repeat her too much to do so. But I will stand up for myself and argue my position. Sometimes I'm right other times she is. I will apologize if I'm wrong and own up to it.
I think both books are good reads just remember to treat your spouse they way you want to be treated yourself. Mutual respect goes a long way.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Appreciate the contribution nub.

Congratulations on your success.

Doesn't matter where it came from.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Books and role models. 

Ask your son what he most admires about the two main male role models in his life. 

Or ask the open ended question: Of all the grown men you know who do you think sets the gold standard and why? 


As for reaching your potential, Margaret Thatcher said it well. 

“Watch your thoughts, for they will become actions. Watch your actions, for they'll become... habits. Watch your habits for they will forge your character. Watch your character, for it will make your destiny.”





NobodySpecial said:


> Deejo. What is a better man? I mean, I have reasons to ask. How to you remain who you are AND change yourself into a better man? I mean, you can like what you like and the hell with what anyone else thinks. And have integrity and character. But what does that mean to a teen aged boy? (Guessing my interest here?) If you want to raise a better man before he has to struggle to get there on his own, what does that look like?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

I haven't read NMMNG, and can't comment specifically on the comparison, but I have read the other book and similar ones.

What most bothers me about books of this ilk is the over-reliance on bs evo-psych that paints men basically as fvck machines that only care about how hot she is and whether she's putting out, and women as baby machines that only care about how many resources she can extract from him. 

And then, from there basically tells men that they are required to be less invested than she is, more dominant than she is, and basically be the ones who tell her what she wants.

All of this does both men and women a great disservice. And personally, I find any man who buys into this picture distinctly unattractive.

IMHO, it is not status that women are responding to, but maturity. And it is not "less investment" that makes them hot, but emotional intelligence. 

And this is what I would tell a teenage boy (or anyone who would bother to listen to me). As a teenager, it was perfectly obvious to me that the boys who were successful were the ones who had these traits. 

Of course women are not going to be drawn to someone who has no sense of identity, who agrees with everything she says or does what she tells him. This has nothing to do with his status, but with the fact that he has no sense of self, and is not able to care for himself. Most women want a relationship with a man, not a child. 

Now true, there are some women who will be drawn to a guy who treats them poorly, who refuses to invest emotionally in her, and just uses her for sex. But unless his only goal is to fulfill some desire to be that fvck machine, odds are those women will cause him more grief than pleasure.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

always_alone said:


> IMHO, it is not status that women are responding to, but maturity. And it is not "less investment" that makes them hot, but emotional intelligence.


I agree with your humble opinion. 

It also seems to me that generally we attract and are attracted to those who are of similar emotional intelligence as ourselves.

I haven't read the books. I did read something the other day that started to blow my mind slightly. And that's the concept that there is no thing as self-improvement. It's simply a different aspect of our mind that we're listening to; yet it's still the same mind we have always listened to. 

_There was once a man who was terrified of his own shadow and lived in fear of the sound of his own footsteps. Walking along one day he entered a panic and tried to flee at top speed. But as fast as he ran, his shadow and footsteps kept up with him and made him run all the faster, until he finally collapsed of exhaustion and died.

If he had only sat down in the shade of a tree, he would no longer have have been able to see his shadow or hear his own footsteps._

The story is from Lao Tzu. The interpretation I gain from this is about being... being still, listening to the inner self. Everything else, including the mind is outwardly. Which blows my mind when I think on it - except it's not meant for the mind. 

I don't meditate (in the sense of a state of being or a weekly class), and do listen outwardly to my mind however I found it interesting that the basis of that example is self acceptance. Yet from a true place of _being_ rather than a mindset. Can one transition to the other? I have no idea. From what I've read here, granted perhaps cherry-picked, is that acceptance of self is part of the theme to becoming 'better' or more congruent, as I prefer to term it. Thoughts lead to feelings lead to actions is something both my husband and I became savvy to over the last couple of years. He hasn't read the books. He did make changes for himself. I knew that he was consciously doing this. It challenged me but I'm not opposed to being challenged for growth and learning lessons. Neither is he. I find him incredibly attractive, interesting and I have great admiration for him. It's frickn hard work to face yourself - whatever the school of thought or non-thought is.


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

Odo here, back after another week-long feminist-induced mandatory "vacation".

A few comments on this thread:



seeking sanity said:


> But my bias is that I hate all the sex rank, get fit, follow these rules to be attractive sh*t.


The problem here is most men do not understand fundamental evolutionary biology and the science of attraction.

When you look at a woman, what attracts you? You may answer that question with a "great ass" or "nice tits". But the true answer lays in why you are attracted to those physical assets a woman presents. The same applies to women looking at men.

Understanding the science of attraction allows you -- either male or female -- to change yourself... to make yourself more attractive to the opposite sex... or, at the very minimum, to educate yourself in knowing what you are doing "wrong" such that members of the opposite sex are not attracted to you.




> I find the whole thing manipulative.


That depends on how you use your knowledge. Its one thing to understand women will instinctively respond to certain cues because it is bred into them as a species... it is another thing to purposely use those cues in order to achieve a certain goal, e.g. bedding as many women as possible.




always_alone said:


> All of this does both men and women a great disservice. And personally, I find any man who buys into this picture distinctly unattractive.


My SO got hit on by red-pill men all the time. Now, while tenets of red-pill tickle her lizard-brain, she's also smart enough to recognize it and not respond to it. 

There in lays the difference. A man recognizing what aspects of his behavior/appearance will "tickle her lizard-brain" is one thing -- it allows a man to sculpt himself, for lack of a better word, to make himself more attractive to women, or, at least, by knowing what women instinctively look for in a mate to improve those aspects of himself to increase the odds he will attract a mate.

There is nothing wrong with this at a basic level. If a man knows women are (generally) attracted to a fit man, should he not attempt to get fit in order to increase his odds of attracting a desirable mate? I see no manipulation in this behavior.

On the other hand, men using red-pill tenets simply as a mechanism to pick her up, ostensibly to bed her, is merely being manipulative for a specific end-game. 


Having knowledge is not a bad thing. How you use it, can be.




> Now true, there are some women who will be drawn to a guy who treats them poorly, who refuses to invest emotionally in her, and just uses her for sex.


These women are usually emotionally damaged and have substantial self-esteem problems. Long-term relationships with them are virtually impossible, and even when possible, create all sorts of unnecessary stressers in your life. Been there, done that.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

heartsbeating said:


> I don't meditate (in the sense of a state of being or a weekly class), and do listen outwardly to my mind however I found it interesting that the basis of that example is self acceptance. Yet from a true place of _being_ rather than a mindset. Can one transition to the other? I have no idea. From what I've read here, granted perhaps cherry-picked, is that acceptance of self is part of the theme to becoming 'better' or more congruent, as I prefer to term it. Thoughts lead to feelings lead to actions is something both my husband and I became savvy to over the last couple of years. He hasn't read the books. He did make changes for himself. I knew that he was consciously doing this. It challenged me but I'm not opposed to being challenged for growth and learning lessons. Neither is he. I find him incredibly attractive, interesting and I have great admiration for him. It's frickn hard work to face yourself - whatever the school of thought or non-thought is.


I like this! I see no threat in self-improvement, nor would I judge it a sign of weakness. Quite the contrary. As I said on the other thread: self awareness is sexy!

I also agree that being challenged to grow is something to be embraced.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

This.

This right here.

This is the message you want to give to your sons.

And the message I want any man that comes here struggling with his relationship to get. And this dude's question illustrates the NG conundrum perfectly. He's terrified of elevating himself at the feared expense of his partner.

Is Living a Great Life Demeaning to a Woman?

MMSLP says much of the same stuff, but does so by deconstructing, demystifying, and demoralizing women, while trying to build up the kind of man in the case of the guy asking Dr. Glover if inviting the woman to be the icing is disrespectful. It's like Glover with a shot of adrenaline and it's mostly unnecessary.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Deejo said:


> This.
> 
> This right here.
> 
> ...


Bookmarked. This is very relevant to me right now. Thanks Deejo


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

I'd rather have my son subscribe to subreddit #RedPillBaby, so he can use tenets of Red Pill to increase his SMV and manipulate his female teachers in elementary school into giving him higher grades.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

always_alone said:


> I like this! I see no threat in self-improvement, nor would I judge it a sign of weakness. Quite the contrary. As I said on the other thread: self awareness is sexy!
> 
> I also agree that being challenged to grow is something to be embraced.


Like I believe I've said before, I'm quite self aware (always room for improvement) am very mature and I'd say above average emotional intelligence. I'd love to self improve, but without tools like the ones athol Kay or Glover have published and made available to similar nice guys like myself who just never took the opportunity to work on our sociosexual skills there are few other means available. Even though women are repulsed by the idea of pickup artists spreading their cheat sheets, so too are they repulsed by the idea of intercourse with a clumsy, uncharming, friend-zoned guy with no game or skill, even if he is not unhygiene or unkind.

How is a guy with no ability to tickle the lizard brain (as Odo put it) ever going to learn it if people are shaming the lessons he needs to undertake to acquire them?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Deejo said:


> This.
> 
> This right here.
> 
> ...


Nice. Thank you.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

NMMNG felt more clinical. More like therapy or seeking to understand the origin of certain issues. I didn't come away with much that was prescriptive or tactical - as in "do x". It was also occasionally a little vague or... arching... the view from 30,000 ft. Lot of good insight, but left me with an overly emo flavor... fluffy like therapy. I don't see it helping someone deal with poor communicators, power imbalances, or someone who probably could use some therapy themselves. It felt whiny and soft. Attraction is also about attitude, and NMMNG felt like reading something by Stuart Smalley - "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough and dog gone it, people like me." The fluffy self-esteem banter annoyed me.

MMSLP was crude, blunt, lots of attitude and more specific about strategy and examples. 

I think they both have the same theme - more or less - to increase a man's interested in SELF. NMMNG might help a guy understand himself or his tendencies better, but MMSLP promotes a more edgy attitude and gives him weapons. Some will object to the term weapons, but when a couple has grown accustomed to doormat behavior, it probably isn't going to change without a decent fight - a fight he's used to losing. She has incentive to protect her status quo benefits and he needs more than NMMNGs understanding to push back imo.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Lon said:


> How is a guy with no ability to tickle the lizard brain (as Odo put it) ever going to learn it if people are shaming the lessons he needs to undertake to acquire them?


Lizard brains are for lizards. There is never shame in learning, and there only objections when the lessons are spreading falsehoods. Have you really learned something, if what you've learned is untrue?

I haven't read NMMNG, and so have no comment on it. Just on the common myths we carry around, like for example that we have "lizard brains" that operate independently of the rest of it.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

seeking sanity said:


> I think Dr Glover would consider some of MMSL to be 'nice guy' behaviour in that the book is about things you can do to be more attractive, which is inherently about gaining a women's approval. NMMNG is about transending the need for a women's approval.


That's a common misconception of all game/pickup/seduction books. The reason being that guys go to those books because they want to appeal. The ultimate irony of these book's themes though, is that they teach that you appeal by not caring about whether you appeal. In the early stages it's an imitation and specific: do X so you don't look needy. But engaging in this more distant, and often irreverent pattern fosters the actual attitude as you discover that "IDAGF" is actually more attractive.

You're free to be irreverent because you learn being irreverent is ok... even good. Free of consequence fear (her withdrawal or disapproval), you're free to be more interesting and genuine. NMMNG has largely the same message, but game-related books tell someone exactly what to do that shows this. Learning by emulation and incremental encouragement. In repeating the tactics you eventually integrate the lesson. Don't worry about what she thinks or what you think she'll think about you. Do what you want, say what you want and don't get hung up on her. Let her worry about her.


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