# Is My Wife Going To Start Cheating?



## BurntEnds

Hi, new member here.....concerned about a conversation I had with my wife last night so I am coming here for feedback.
So my wife and I have been happily married for about 15 years. We have 2 kids and we have a trusting relationship with little to no bumps, just the usual nitpicky stuff here and there but nothing major. Neither of us has ever cheated on each other, however, for the majority of our marriage, we have always expressed our fantasies with one another when getting intimate. The most common fantasies have been the two of us with another man joining in (typically my fantasy) or her and another man with me in the same room watching (all her fantasy). Through the years, this has been our typical "dirty talk" and we have always discussed that it's just that and nothing more. She usually brings up, "I'm a mother and I would just feel immense shame afterwards" so there is a track record of this just being dirty talk.
My wife goes out with her girlfriends every now and then, maybe twice a month and usually to a karaoke bar or a brewhouse. I on the other hand generally stay home with the kids and just keep to myself, I don't really have any friends and really just keep my free time confined to my family.
Anyways, about 2 weeks ago, my wife went out with the girls and maybe had a little too much to drink as she was hungover the next day. Well last night, we were getting intimate and talking dirty. Lately she has been losing weight and started waxing "down there" and she has been feeling sexier and more confident which is something that she has always struggled with (i.e. low self esteem). Well, during our dirty talk, I asked her things like, "do you notice guys looking at you when you go out?" and she starts giggling and recounts that night 2 weeks ago and says that yes, men were looking at her that night and some even bought her drinks. During our foreplay, I tried to get more information out of her, while still in the guise of "fantasy mode" and she starts saying things like, "what would you let me do with other men?" I ask her "what do you want to do?" And she says "are you okay if I flirt with other men?" I say sure, and she asks if I am okay if a man buys her a drink and dances with her. Again, I say sure, just to gather more "now very real" information and I ask her "what else do you want to do?" To which she says "I want to kiss other men". At this point, I am alarmed, and I feel like I am much to blame given our ongoing fantasies, so after we are done being intimate, I ask her "how much of what we discussed was just fantasy?" We had a 2 hour conversation and she tells me essentially that she doesn't want to sleep with other men, that she just enjoys the confidence boost, the free drinks and likes to dance. We discuss kissing, to which I say "kissing on the mouth is basically where cheating starts". That basically caused her to sink into her shell because she knew that was the nail on the head for me. She then disagrees and says it depends on how it's done. I ask her for examples and she says a peck on the cheek as a "thanks for the dance/drink" is wholly different than a full fledged makeout session. I tell her, "would you be uncomfortable with me kissing another woman?" And she circles back to "if it's a little peck, I wouldn't care but if it was open mouth with tongue, then yeah I would be upset".
So basically after this long discussion, we establish that a guy buying her a drink, some dancing and flirting is "fine" but that kissing is where I see the start of being unfaithful. She says the attention she gets is what causes her to come home extra frisky and is why she always wants to jump my bones lately.
I never fell asleep, and I still have knots in my stomach just recounting the whole ordeal but really I'm just worried that this is now the beginning of a difficult to manage situation. I feel like she "has permission" to go further than she's gone before with "kissing" being the line in the sand, but I know that if it ever gets to that point, human nature is bound to throw caution to the wind and just deal with the ramifications later, especially when the types of men that are solely going to bars go to basically get laid.
I hope I can solicit some female responses as I feel her situation is relatable. Of course, all feedback is welcome.
-Troubled in Texas


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## gr8ful1

You being open to her flirting, accepting drinks, etc. is extremely dangerous imo. No good can come from this.


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## Diana7

I agree completely with the above post. A married woman should never be going to bars and dancing and flirting and drinking with other men. Sounds like her friends are a bad influence. 
Btw it sounds as if kissing has already happened. 
She is playing with fire here and you are enabling it.


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## Nailhead

Your wife is on the slippery slope. Kick in all the free drinks one night and that will be all she wrote. Find a new fantasy.


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## Blondilocks

A married woman has no business accepting drinks from other men. Same goes for flirting and dancing and pecks on the cheek (unless it is from a family member).

Jebus, fella, wake up and smell the coffee. You wife is acting single while you are watching the kids. What is up with that? She has no respect for you.

Yeah, your 'dirty' talk always involving other people may have played a part in her raunchy behavior.


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## Sfort

Read the big thread by @VintageRetro. Drinking and its aftermath can lead to great troubles.


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## jsmart

Sheesh, how many threads have their been of husbands opening the Pandora’s box of their wife getting with other men. It never ends well for these husbands. Your wife shutdown because she realized that you were not really ready to share your wife. If she said she wanted to kiss some guys, she has already done that. Could she have done more? Can’t tell with what you’ve provided but your drunk wife getting in back seat of some guy’s car who bought her some drinks does not see out of the realm of possibilities. You fantasy play has primed her to be open to men’s sexual advances. Also, you have signaled that you don’t treasure her. If you did, there’s no way you would get off on some other dude having her. 

Do you think a woman feels loved when she knows her husband and father of her kids gets off on another man having her? Does she feel secure and protected?


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## Andy1001

As a former serial dater let me tell you something. 
If I met a woman in a bar when I was single (and believe me I met plenty) and we kissed, we would be having sex that night. 
This is not bragging, it’s a fact.
Your wife isn’t asking you for permission to cheat, she’s telling you she’s going to do it. And when she does she will tell you she thought you were okay with it. 
On another topic why do all YOUR fantasies involve another man or men screwing your wife.


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## Galabar01

You need to put a stop to this. No more girls night out. Your wife has shown that she can't handle it and is not able to maintain proper boundaries.


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## Captain Obvious

Your wife is playing with fire and you're basically standing next to her with a full gas can. No married woman should be going to bars to flirt with other men, letting other men buy her drinks, and saying thanks with pecks on the cheek. Wake up Man!


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## Numb26

She probably already has and this is her way of letting you know/getting permission


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## Cynthia

I love to sing, so I go to karaoke, sometimes with my husband, sometimes with other friends. I do not flirt with men. I do not get drinks from men. I am known by the staff at the bar that I go to. Pretty sure they would mention to my husband anything that I might do that would be inappropriate behavior.

Yes, I think you have opened Pandora's box with this type of fantasy talk. I agree that you are telling your wife that you do not cherish her as your treasure and that she is an object to be played with rather than a cherished wife to make love with. I recommend that you stop with the kind of fantasy talk you have been having and let your wife know that you do not want to lose her and are unwilling to share her on any level. It may be too late, but she's still in your home with you, so you do have a chance of turning this around. It would be good to emphasize that two can play at that game and if she opens up the marriage, she cannot expect fidelity from you. If there is no fidelity, there is no marriage. She needs to know this clearly, but you have to be willing to stand by your boundary.

I also recommend that you get in shape and start being a prize to your wife. Don't grovel or appear weak. Do the opposite and show your confidence and security in who you are as a person.


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## LATERILUS79

I get a bad sense here that the cheating has already happened.

I have no idea why wives have to go out with eachother to bars. This need of hers to get hit on by other men? That’s bad. Yeah, I think she’s already giving into it if she is already waxing downstairs.

right now, she is getting free babysitting from you while she goes out to live a single life.

If I were you, I’d start checking her phone and reading her text messages with her friends - especially the ones that she goes out with to these bars.


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## Sfort

BurntEnds said:


> She then disagrees and says it depends on how it's done. I ask her for examples and she says a peck on the cheek as a "thanks for the dance/drink" is wholly different than a full fledged makeout session. I tell her, "would you be uncomfortable with me kissing another woman?" And she circles back to "if it's a little peck, I wouldn't care but if it was open mouth with tongue, then yeah I would be upset".


I'd bet there's a lot more than a little pecker involved.


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## Cynthia

I agree that it's possible she is already cheating or is seriously considering it. To find out how far it's gone, check out this thread: Standard Evidence Post . Weightlifter's thread contains all sorts of information on how to find out exactly what is going on.

It's unfortunate that you don't have any friends, because you need someone to go to that bar and spy on your wife.


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## Taxman

Under no circumstances should a woman accept a drink from a stranger. FFS, I am a father. My kid is a physician. Do you know how many "morning after" victims find their way into the ER? I used to drive livery, know how many wasted girls, and their "dates" in the back? (They were instructed that my car is not a hotel room, and they are not welcome to use it for that purpose--dropped one or two on a street corner, and drove one young lady directly to the ER, alcohol poisoning) Flirting as your wife seems to describe it, is flirting with danger, both personal and marital. I would advise her to stop.


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## Diana7

Taxman said:


> Under no circumstances should a woman accept a drink from a stranger. FFS, I am a father. My kid is a physician. Do you know how many "morning after" victims find their way into the ER? I used to drive livery, know how many wasted girls, and their "dates" in the back? (They were instructed that my car is not a hotel room, and they are not welcome to use it for that purpose--dropped one or two on a street corner, and drove one young lady directly to the ER, alcohol poisoning) Flirting as your wife seems to describe it, is flirting with danger, both personal and marital. I would advise her to stop.


Plus anyone could slip a date rape drug into it.


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## Tested_by_stress

If you keep prying open Pandora's box OP, someone's going to stuff something in it. Wake up man!You are planting the seeds of infidelity with your "other man" bs. Days, weeks or months from now, you'll be back with a "my wife cheated "thread.


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## ArthurGPym

Don't let her do it alone man. 

Look if she wants some strange (and you seem to have a MFM threesome or hotwife kink) then make sure she does this with you present. It sounds to me like she has already kissed some guys and was hoping she could get off scott-free if you condoned it. Something stinks here. I would go back and tell her you changed your mind and you don't feel comfortable with her doing these things without your present. 

But for myself I would not do any of these things. Seems like tampering with the lid on Pandora's Box.


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## chazmataz33

The line has already been crossed.time for another talk unless you want her doing the dirty with some stranger. Balls in your court.


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## ConanHub

BurntEnds said:


> Hi, new member here.....concerned about a conversation I had with my wife last night so I am coming here for feedback.
> So my wife and I have been happily married for about 15 years. We have 2 kids and we have a trusting relationship with little to no bumps, just the usual nitpicky stuff here and there but nothing major. Neither of us has ever cheated on each other, however, for the majority of our marriage, we have always expressed our fantasies with one another when getting intimate. The most common fantasies have been the two of us with another man joining in (typically my fantasy) or her and another man with me in the same room watching (all her fantasy). Through the years, this has been our typical "dirty talk" and we have always discussed that it's just that and nothing more. She usually brings up, "I'm a mother and I would just feel immense shame afterwards" so there is a track record of this just being dirty talk.
> My wife goes out with her girlfriends every now and then, maybe twice a month and usually to a karaoke bar or a brewhouse. I on the other hand generally stay home with the kids and just keep to myself, I don't really have any friends and really just keep my free time confined to my family.
> Anyways, about 2 weeks ago, my wife went out with the girls and maybe had a little too much to drink as she was hungover the next day. Well last night, we were getting intimate and talking dirty. Lately she has been losing weight and started waxing "down there" and she has been feeling sexier and more confident which is something that she has always struggled with (i.e. low self esteem). Well, during our dirty talk, I asked her things like, "do you notice guys looking at you when you go out?" and she starts giggling and recounts that night 2 weeks ago and says that yes, men were looking at her that night and some even bought her drinks. During our foreplay, I tried to get more information out of her, while still in the guise of "fantasy mode" and she starts saying things like, "what would you let me do with other men?" I ask her "what do you want to do?" And she says "are you okay if I flirt with other men?" I say sure, and she asks if I am okay if a man buys her a drink and dances with her. Again, I say sure, just to gather more "now very real" information and I ask her "what else do you want to do?" To which she says "I want to kiss other men". At this point, I am alarmed, and I feel like I am much to blame given our ongoing fantasies, so after we are done being intimate, I ask her "how much of what we discussed was just fantasy?" We had a 2 hour conversation and she tells me essentially that she doesn't want to sleep with other men, that she just enjoys the confidence boost, the free drinks and likes to dance. We discuss kissing, to which I say "kissing on the mouth is basically where cheating starts". That basically caused her to sink into her shell because she knew that was the nail on the head for me. She then disagrees and says it depends on how it's done. I ask her for examples and she says a peck on the cheek as a "thanks for the dance/drink" is wholly different than a full fledged makeout session. I tell her, "would you be uncomfortable with me kissing another woman?" And she circles back to "if it's a little peck, I wouldn't care but if it was open mouth with tongue, then yeah I would be upset".
> So basically after this long discussion, we establish that a guy buying her a drink, some dancing and flirting is "fine" but that kissing is where I see the start of being unfaithful. She says the attention she gets is what causes her to come home extra frisky and is why she always wants to jump my bones lately.
> I never fell asleep, and I still have knots in my stomach just recounting the whole ordeal but really I'm just worried that this is now the beginning of a difficult to manage situation. I feel like she "has permission" to go further than she's gone before with "kissing" being the line in the sand, but I know that if it ever gets to that point, human nature is bound to throw caution to the wind and just deal with the ramifications later, especially when the types of men that are solely going to bars go to basically get laid.
> I hope I can solicit some female responses as I feel her situation is relatable. Of course, all feedback is welcome.
> -Troubled in Texas


This kinda sounds like a cheesy erotica story?


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## BurntEnds

ConanHub said:


> This kinda sounds like a cheesy erotica story?


I wish that was the case but it's my real life failure to maintain a once promising healthy marriage


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## ConanHub

BurntEnds said:


> I wish that was the case but it's my real life failure to maintain a once promising healthy marriage


Best put your foot down then. No more gno's and counseling and get your legal ducks in a row and start documenting her behavior for a divorce.

Decisive action always produces better results.

Whiny men get the crumbs and leftovers of what other men have feasted on.

Make sure you aren't licking the saliva off the grizzle of another man's steak.


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## Numb26

ConanHub said:


> Best put your foot down then. No more gno's and counseling and get your legal ducks in a row and start documenting her behavior for a divorce.
> 
> Decisive action always produces better results.
> 
> Whiny men get the crumbs and leftovers of what other men have feasted on.
> 
> Make sure you aren't licking the saliva off the grizzle of another man's steak.


It's to late. That horse already escaped the barn


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## HappilyMarried1

Welcome to TAM @BurntEnds I think based on your OP you know deep down where this is heading. I agree with what @Diana7 said in post #3 that this should not be going on and that the kiss I agree with her has already happened and she was just feeling you out. I hope that is all that has happened, but I am afraid that maybe more has happened. I hope I am wrong here is what I think based on what you have said she told you. She has progressed to dancing and drinks with a guy and then they sit together and kiss as she said open mouth and he gets a little handsy and she really likes it but she stops it before it goes any further. That's why she is coming home and jumping your bones, she is as others said feeling you out to how you feel about things and she is considering going further.

If she starts going out more often and not wanting to jump your bones when she comes in then you really need to worry. A couple of questions then a suggestion for you. These girlfriends she goes out with are they married? Is one a designated driver? Has the frequency of these GNO becoming more often or staying out longer. Do you all share each others cell phones or if she has started keeping her phone with her more using it more that could already be a red flag. Now for a few suggestions one if the phone thing is as I said above I would suggest checking it or your bill to see if their are any numbers you do not know. Next, if where they go is a large and crowed bar/club hire a sitter and after about 30 minutes to an hour go into to the club lay low and observe for yourself if spotted you could always say you were fulfilling a little of your own fantasy. I personally don't recommend the following to the club(just a suggestion).

Finally, here is what I would actually do if I was in your shoes. I would sit her down after kids are asleep and say after your discussion about feelings of real/fantasy you think this is not good. First I would ask her point blank if she has already kissed another guy (on the lips) more than once or more than one guy? I would think after being together for 15+ years you would know if she is telling you the truth. Then I would say that giving this more thought (even if she says she has not kissed or done anything with anyone and you believe her) this is not a good thing for your marriage and your family. That it was your understanding that on these GNO she was just going out with her girlfriends and having some drinks, them dancing together, and doing some karaoke. It now seems to be progressing to areas you are not comfortable with for you or your marriage. I would use the example of how she came home two weeks ago and say what if you get a more drunk than then and a good looking guy comes onto you hard. I would say that you are a guy and a guy in a bar/club who you let buy you drinks and dance with and even kiss is going to want and expect more than that. I would also say is the reason you ask me about how I felt about how far flirting should be allowed to go and what I thought was it because you a) want to do things with other men b) already have done some things with guys and due to you feeling guilty wanted to see how I felt about things or wanted to try and tell me a little of what has happened to see how I would react. You seriously need to sit her down before she plans another one and get this out or I am afraid you will be on here in a few months telling us she had a ONS with a guy from a bar she had to much to drink and was flirting and things just went to far and you will be crushed so you need to put a stop to this now. Let her know how you feel and if she really loves and cares about your marriage and family she will understand and agree. If she does not agree and tries to gaslight you and say you are being controlling and jealous then she probably has already been involved and wants to continue. I would as kind of a compromise suggest that you can hire a sitter and go to a club just you two and share it together. Best of luck! Please don't be a one post and done let us know how things are going. It really sounds like you have a good marriage and family, but I really feel you need to step up here be firm and tell her how you feel and get this stopped before it goes to far, because trust me it will continue to progress if you allow it.


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## Al_Bundy

Know what kind of guys dance and kiss women at bars..........the kind looking to get laid. Know what kind of women dance and kiss guys at bars......the kind looking to get laid. Plus it's not like they're doing the Texas Two Step, by dancing we're talking dry humping. If she's willing to publicly grind and kiss on other guys, she'll do (and probably has done more). Sorry man, this might be beyond repair.


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## ccpowerslave

Lol, flirting and accepting drinks from strangers is ok? I like the free drinks? Oh brother…


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## HappilyMarried1

BurntEnds said:


> I wish that was the case but it's my real life failure to maintain a once promising healthy marriage


Hopefully it is not to late but if you don't put your foot down before the next GNO it maybe.


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## Cici1990

HappilyMarried1 said:


> Welcome to TAM @BurntEnds I think based on your OP you know deep down where this is heading. I agree with what @Diana7 said in post #3 that this should not be going on and that the kiss I agree with her has already happened and she was just feeling you out. I hope that is all that has happened, but I am afraid that maybe more has happened. I hope I am wrong here is what I think based on what you have said she told you. She has progressed to dancing and drinks with a guy and then they sit together and kiss as she said open mouth and he gets a little handsy and she really likes it but she stops it before it goes any further. That's why she is coming home and jumping your bones, she is as others said feeling you out to how you feel about things and she is considering going further.
> 
> If she starts going out more often and not wanting to jump your bones when she comes in then you really need to worry. A couple of questions then a suggestion for you. These girlfriends she goes out with are they married? Is one a designated driver? Has the frequency of these GNO becoming more often or staying out longer. Do you all share each others cell phones or if she has started keeping her phone with her more using it more that could already be a red flag. Now for a few suggestions one if the phone thing is as I said above I would suggest checking it or your bill to see if their are any numbers you do not know. Next, if where they go is a large and crowed bar/club hire a sitter and after about 30 minutes to an hour go into to the club lay low and observe for yourself if spotted you could always say you were fulfilling a little of your own fantasy. I personally don't recommend the following to the club(just a suggestion).
> 
> Finally, here is what I would actually do if I was in your shoes. I would sit her down after kids are asleep and say after your discussion about feelings of real/fantasy you think this is not good. First I would ask her point blank if she has already kissed another guy (on the lips) more than once or more than one guy? I would think after being together for 15+ years you would know if she is telling you the truth. Then I would say that giving this more thought (even if she says she has not kissed or done anything with anyone and you believe her) this is not a good thing for your marriage and your family. That it was your understanding that on these GNO she was just going out with her girlfriends and having some drinks, them dancing together, and doing some karaoke. It now seems to be progressing to areas you are not comfortable with for you or your marriage. I would use the example of how she came home two weeks ago and say what if you get a more drunk than then and a good looking guy comes onto you hard. I would say that you are a guy and a guy in a bar/club who you let buy you drinks and dance with and even kiss is going to want and expect more than that. I would also say is the reason you ask me about how I felt about how far flirting should be allowed to go and what I thought was it because you a) want to do things with other men b) already have done some things with guys and due to you feeling guilty wanted to see how I felt about things or wanted to try and tell me a little of what has happened to see how I would react. You seriously need to sit her down before she plans another one and get this out or I am afraid you will be on here in a few months telling us she had a ONS with a guy from a bar she had to much to drink and was flirting and things just went to far and you will be crushed so you need to put a stop to this now. Let her know how you feel and if she really loves and cares about your marriage and family she will understand and agree. If she does not agree and tries to gaslight you and say you are being controlling and jealous then she probably has already been involved and wants to continue. I would as kind of a compromise suggest that you can hire a sitter and go to a club just you two and share it together. Best of luck! Please don't be a one post and done let us know how things are going. It really sounds like you have a good marriage and family, but I really feel you need to step up here be firm and tell her how you feel and get this stopped before it goes to far, because trust me it will continue to progress if you allow it.


As a cheater myself, and one with fantasies of screwing other men while my husband watched (and actually did it) and who justified flirting with other men, getting free drinks from other men, etc….I think the above response is the best one you’ve received yet in this thread and you should follow this advice.


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## BurntEnds

HappilyMarried1 said:


> Welcome to TAM @BurntEnds I think based on your OP you know deep down where this is heading. I agree with what @Diana7 said in post #3 that this should not be going on and that the kiss I agree with her has already happened and she was just feeling you out. I hope that is all that has happened, but I am afraid that maybe more has happened. I hope I am wrong here is what I think based on what you have said she told you. She has progressed to dancing and drinks with a guy and then they sit together and kiss as she said open mouth and he gets a little handsy and she really likes it but she stops it before it goes any further. That's why she is coming home and jumping your bones, she is as others said feeling you out to how you feel about things and she is considering going further.
> 
> If she starts going out more often and not wanting to jump your bones when she comes in then you really need to worry. A couple of questions then a suggestion for you. These girlfriends she goes out with are they married? Is one a designated driver? Has the frequency of these GNO becoming more often or staying out longer. Do you all share each others cell phones or if she has started keeping her phone with her more using it more that could already be a red flag. Now for a few suggestions one if the phone thing is as I said above I would suggest checking it or your bill to see if their are any numbers you do not know. Next, if where they go is a large and crowed bar/club hire a sitter and after about 30 minutes to an hour go into to the club lay low and observe for yourself if spotted you could always say you were fulfilling a little of your own fantasy. I personally don't recommend the following to the club(just a suggestion).
> 
> Finally, here is what I would actually do if I was in your shoes. I would sit her down after kids are asleep and say after your discussion about feelings of real/fantasy you think this is not good. First I would ask her point blank if she has already kissed another guy (on the lips) more than once or more than one guy? I would think after being together for 15+ years you would know if she is telling you the truth. Then I would say that giving this more thought (even if she says she has not kissed or done anything with anyone and you believe her) this is not a good thing for your marriage and your family. That it was your understanding that on these GNO she was just going out with her girlfriends and having some drinks, them dancing together, and doing some karaoke. It now seems to be progressing to areas you are not comfortable with for you or your marriage. I would use the example of how she came home two weeks ago and say what if you get a more drunk than then and a good looking guy comes onto you hard. I would say that you are a guy and a guy in a bar/club who you let buy you drinks and dance with and even kiss is going to want and expect more than that. I would also say is the reason you ask me about how I felt about how far flirting should be allowed to go and what I thought was it because you a) want to do things with other men b) already have done some things with guys and due to you feeling guilty wanted to see how I felt about things or wanted to try and tell me a little of what has happened to see how I would react. You seriously need to sit her down before she plans another one and get this out or I am afraid you will be on here in a few months telling us she had a ONS with a guy from a bar she had to much to drink and was flirting and things just went to far and you will be crushed so you need to put a stop to this now. Let her know how you feel and if she really loves and cares about your marriage and family she will understand and agree. If she does not agree and tries to gaslight you and say you are being controlling and jealous then she probably has already been involved and wants to continue. I would as kind of a compromise suggest that you can hire a sitter and go to a club just you two and share it together. Best of luck! Please don't be a one post and done let us know how things are going. It really sounds like you have a good marriage and family, but I really feel you need to step up here be firm and tell her how you feel and get this stopped before it goes to far, because trust me it will continue to progress if you allow it.


This has been the most reasoned response so far. Thank you kindly for your feedback, I sincerely appreciate you. I will follow up as time progresses.


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## Evinrude58

Any woman going out to clubs regularly and admitting to getting drinks from and dancing with men, and wanting to kiss them—- she’s already screwing or about to screw other men.
She told you she wants to kiss other dudes to your face.

Cheating women don’t tell their men what they are doing. If they admit to x, then x is the tiniest snowflake on top of the tip of the iceberg.
You had a fantasy of another man screwing your own wife???? I can’t wrap my head around that, but prepare for your fantasy to come true. Sadly, you won’t be a party of it unless you catch her in the act.

attention hos are just hoes


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## Blondilocks

BurntEnds said:


> This has been the most reasoned response so far. Thank you kindly for your feedback, I sincerely appreciate you. I will follow up as time progresses.


If you needed all that verbiage stating the obvious in order for you to see the light of day, then I have no hope for you. Carry on.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Mister, you need to stop this **** in its tracks. She is probably already doing the “horizontal mambo“ with other men.
and as @Taxman says, accepting drinks from strangers. Danger Will Robinson!

I am not a big fan of GNO’s as this is how my FWW wound up in a short term fling. Married 15 years? I would say she is a tad to old to carry on like a college girl. Time for her to act like a responsible woman, not a floozy.


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## re16

Time to keep quiet about this for a little bit and do some recon on her phone....


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## Al_Bundy

re16 said:


> Time to keep quiet about this for a little bit and do some recon on her phone....


Agreed. Also, what kind of women is she going out with. Be honest, because they are a reflection of your wife.


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## BurntEnds

Al_Bundy said:


> Agreed. Also, what kind of women is she going out with. Be honest, because they are a reflection of your wife.


2 Married women, one in her 40s and one in her 20s


----------



## HappilyMarried1

BurntEnds said:


> 2 Married women, one in her 40s and one in her 20s


That kind of surprises me I would have throught they were single. One other question does you wife work outside of the home or is she a SAHM? Do you know these women very well? Do they flirt or could either or both have a open marriage or their husband travel for work and are gone a lot, or has your wife mentioned anything about them having an affair or how they act when they are out together.


----------



## BurntEnds

HappilyMarried1 said:


> That kind of surprises me I would have throught they were single. One other question does you wife work outside of the home or is she a SAHM? Do you know these women very well? Do they flirt or could either or both have a open marriage or their husband travel for work and are gone a lot, or has your wife mentioned anything about them having an affair or how they act when they are out together.


The two and my wife are all teachers. The oldest is also in a trusting marriage. The younger one has only been married for a month. My wife gives me free reign of her phone. I can snoop at my leisure.


----------



## Andy1001

BurntEnds said:


> The two and my wife are all teachers. The oldest is also in a trusting marriage. The younger one has only been married for a month. My wife gives me free reign of her phone. I can snoop at my leisure.


She’s already told you she dances with strangers, kisses them and accepts drinks. If she slips outside with them for a quickie in the back of the car she’s hardly going to make a note of it on her phone is she?
You are naive in the extreme.


----------



## HappilyMarried1

Thanks for the additional information @BurntEnds . I will admit it does not seem as bad as first thought after you providing more info and answering some questions. However, I still say you need to sit her down as soon as possible and let her know after giving your discussion some more thought that you are not comfortable how this is progressing and you really are not comfortable with anything other than your wife going out with her friends for some drinks and talks but nothing else. I still would ask if she has done anything that she hinted out the night you guys were being intimate.


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## Evinrude58

Your wife is going out clubbing and acting like a single woman. There’s no way to spin this so that it’s all innocent fun.


----------



## HappilyMarried1

BurntEnds said:


> The two and my wife are all teachers.


That's interesting my wife of 34+ years and I are both retired teachers. Teachers can tend to go out and let their hair down both men and women teachers especially in the past couple of years.


----------



## HappilyMarried1

One other question for you @BurntEnds are you and the 40 something teacher friend husband friends? If so in a casual conversation you could ask him what does his wife say about their GNO?


----------



## GG1061

BurntEnds said:


> Hi, new member here.....concerned about a conversation I had with my wife last night so I am coming here for feedback.
> So my wife and I have been happily married for about 15 years. We have 2 kids and we have a trusting relationship with little to no bumps, just the usual nitpicky stuff here and there but nothing major. Neither of us has ever cheated on each other, however, for the majority of our marriage, we have always expressed our fantasies with one another when getting intimate. The most common fantasies have been the two of us with another man joining in (typically my fantasy) or her and another man with me in the same room watching (all her fantasy). Through the years, this has been our typical "dirty talk" and we have always discussed that it's just that and nothing more. She usually brings up, "I'm a mother and I would just feel immense shame afterwards" so there is a track record of this just being dirty talk.
> My wife goes out with her girlfriends every now and then, maybe twice a month and usually to a karaoke bar or a brewhouse. I on the other hand generally stay home with the kids and just keep to myself, I don't really have any friends and really just keep my free time confined to my family.
> Anyways, about 2 weeks ago, my wife went out with the girls and maybe had a little too much to drink as she was hungover the next day. Well last night, we were getting intimate and talking dirty. Lately she has been losing weight and started waxing "down there" and she has been feeling sexier and more confident which is something that she has always struggled with (i.e. low self esteem). Well, during our dirty talk, I asked her things like, "do you notice guys looking at you when you go out?" and she starts giggling and recounts that night 2 weeks ago and says that yes, men were looking at her that night and some even bought her drinks. During our foreplay, I tried to get more information out of her, while still in the guise of "fantasy mode" and she starts saying things like, "what would you let me do with other men?" I ask her "what do you want to do?" And she says "are you okay if I flirt with other men?" I say sure, and she asks if I am okay if a man buys her a drink and dances with her. Again, I say sure, just to gather more "now very real" information and I ask her "what else do you want to do?" To which she says "I want to kiss other men". At this point, I am alarmed, and I feel like I am much to blame given our ongoing fantasies, so after we are done being intimate, I ask her "how much of what we discussed was just fantasy?" We had a 2 hour conversation and she tells me essentially that she doesn't want to sleep with other men, that she just enjoys the confidence boost, the free drinks and likes to dance. We discuss kissing, to which I say "kissing on the mouth is basically where cheating starts". That basically caused her to sink into her shell because she knew that was the nail on the head for me. She then disagrees and says it depends on how it's done. I ask her for examples and she says a peck on the cheek as a "thanks for the dance/drink" is wholly different than a full fledged makeout session. I tell her, "would you be uncomfortable with me kissing another woman?" And she circles back to "if it's a little peck, I wouldn't care but if it was open mouth with tongue, then yeah I would be upset".
> So basically after this long discussion, we establish that a guy buying her a drink, some dancing and flirting is "fine" but that kissing is where I see the start of being unfaithful. She says the attention she gets is what causes her to come home extra frisky and is why she always wants to jump my bones lately.
> I never fell asleep, and I still have knots in my stomach just recounting the whole ordeal but really I'm just worried that this is now the beginning of a difficult to manage situation. I feel like she "has permission" to go further than she's gone before with "kissing" being the line in the sand, but I know that if it ever gets to that point, human nature is bound to throw caution to the wind and just deal with the ramifications later, especially when the types of men that are solely going to bars go to basically get laid.
> I hope I can solicit some female responses as I feel her situation is relatable. Of course, all feedback is welcome.
> -Troubled in Texas


 She is getting turned on by the flirting, dancing, etc. you can imagine what the conversation is like with a dance partner who has bought her drinks. So far she is taking that energy out on you. Plus, after the weight loss and landscaping, is she going to the bar to be with her girlfriends or more for the male attention. You know that the same guys will be at the bar so the encounters will become with men she is familiar with. Besides co-workers girls-night-out has to be one of the most cited places where cheaters find their accomplices.

Not an expert but sounds to me like stepping up affection and other forms of non-sexual intimacy with each other is called for to counteract this drift you wife is admitting. Overhaul up your sex routine with her. Different times, days, locations and such can add spontaneity and fun. Eat at the “Y” in your back seat for lunch at her company’s parking lot. Sometimes you have to F her and not just make love to her. Take her to a different bar and bang her in the bathroom. Hopefully you get the idea.


----------



## BurntEnds

HappilyMarried1 said:


> Thanks for the additional information @BurntEnds . I will admit it does not seem as bad as first thought after you providing more info and answering some questions. However, I still say you need to sit her down as soon as possible and let her know after giving your discussion some more thought that you are not comfortable how this is progressing and you really are not comfortable with anything other than your wife going out with her friends for some drinks and talks but nothing else. I still would ask if she has done anything that she hinted out the night you guys were being intimate.


I agree, my head is so heavy with despair at the moment but I am going to talk through it again tonight. We are very open and honest with one another but the only thing that heavies my heart is her reaction to the "kiss" talk. I do trust that she is not trying to cheat, naive as that may sound, I just feel like she is getting new found attention at the moment and is trying to navigate through it. Note that this is a recent phenomenon which is why I am so out of sorts but open communication is key and that's what I plan on doing. Will update you my friend and thanks again for your kindness and understanding


----------



## BurntEnds

HappilyMarried1 said:


> One other question for you @BurntEnds are you and the 40 something teacher friend husband friends? If so in a casual conversation you could ask him what does his wife say about their GNO?


Unfortunately no, the older woman's husband and I don't know one another, I just have insight into their relationship based on what my wife says about them, but it seems like a well established and trusting marriage. Kids, house, family vacations, active in church, etc.


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## arodathon

I just joined this forum and the first post I saw was yours and I came here to post almost the same thing! Given the responses you got, I don't know if I want to post now.

I'm here if you want to talk @BurntEnds


----------



## BurntEnds

arodathon said:


> I just joined this forum and the first post I saw was yours and I came here to post almost the same thing! Given the responses you got, I don't know if I want to post now.
> 
> I'm here if you want to talk @BurntEnds


I appreciate the words. I would like to know your situation. I'm not sure how that works on this forum but someone going through the same stresses would be of comfort


----------



## Diana7

BurntEnds said:


> Unfortunately no, the older woman's husband and I don't know one another, I just have insight into their relationship based on what my wife says about them, but it seems like a well established and trusting marriage. Kids, house, family vacations, active in church, etc.


Active in church but flirting drinking and dancing with men in bars. Okaaayyy. Hardly the way for a mature wife with children to act. 
Boundaries with the opposite sex are important and these three women need to set some.


----------



## arodathon

BurntEnds said:


> I appreciate the words. I would like to know your situation. I'm not sure how that works on this forum but someone going through the same stresses would be of comfort


I tried to privately message you, but because I've only just joined this forum I couldn't. I could say my peace about my wife, but I don't want to hijack your thread.


----------



## Diana7

arodathon said:


> I just joined this forum and the first post I saw was yours and I came here to post almost the same thing! Given the responses you got, I don't know if I want to post now.
> 
> I'm here if you want to talk @BurntEnds


What was it about the replies that bothered you?Most replies seemed accurate and helpful to me. Most were warning of the obvious dangers of what was happening and what could happen.


----------



## Diana7

arodathon said:


> I tried to privately message you, but because I've only just joined this forum I couldn't. I could say my peace about my wife, but I don't want to hijack your thread.


Start your own thread.


----------



## BurntEnds

arodathon said:


> I tried to privately message you, but because I've only just joined this forum I couldn't. I could say my peace about my wife, but I don't want to hijack your thread.


Understood. If you are able to eventually private message me, I would like to know more, thanks for reaching out


----------



## arodathon

BurntEnds said:


> Understood. If you are able to eventually private message me, I would like to know more, thanks for reaching out


I can now. I've privately messaged you.


----------



## arodathon

Diana7 said:


> What was it about the replies that bothered you?Most replies seemed accurate and helpful to me. Most were warning of the obvious dangers of what was happening and what could happen.


Sorry, I agree the replies are fine. More just that it's not what I wanted to hear really.


----------



## TAMAT

BurntEnds,

BTW kissing is physical sex and can lead to oral and throat cancers from HPV, along with syphilus and other STDs, look it up. And the kind of men on the prowl at bars might just be the kind good at seduction and with multiple indiscriminate partnering.

And as other posters have said mouth kissing leads to sex, it's like touching the trigger on a mouse trap. It's also more intimate than the genital sex.

Is there a culture of cheating at your Ws school?


----------



## Lostinthought61

I see a slippery slope where things can get out of hand....i think you need to have another conversation away from the bed


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

BurntEnds said:


> I agree, my head is so heavy with despair at the moment but I am going to talk through it again tonight. We are very open and honest with one another but the only thing that heavies my heart is her reaction to the "kiss" talk. I do trust that she is not trying to cheat, naive as that may sound, I just feel like she is getting new found attention at the moment and is trying to navigate through it. Note that this is a recent phenomenon which is why I am so out of sorts but open communication is key and that's what I plan on doing. Will update you my friend and thanks again for your kindness and understanding


Please don’t be a fool. She is banging other men. Schedule a polygraph for her,


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

BurntEnds said:


> Unfortunately no, the older woman's husband and I don't know one another, I just have insight into their relationship based on what my wife says about them, but it seems like a well established and trusting marriage. Kids, house, family vacations, active in church, etc.


Sounds like my FWW who I busted banging another man a few years back. Open your eyes brother.


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## ConanHub

Good grief.


----------



## jsmart

It’s hard to put the genie back in the bottle. We can’t say for sure if she’s hasn’t already had a romp or given a BJ in some guys back seat but your fantasy talk has filled her head up with a desire for such an encounter. Add liquor and a guy with a dominant personality, and she will be putty.

When she was giving you the playful recap, she was feeling you out. She correctly sussed out that you were not really ready to hear what she did with some strange dude but I suspect that at the bare minimum, she was making out and getting felt up in an isolated booth. Now if she was in some guys back seat, then the chance of a BJ went up significantly.

You really need to put an end to these GNO. She’s a wife and a mother of 2 kids. For you to be sitting at home with the kids like a freaking baby sitter, while she’s out getting her freak on like 20 something is making you appear super weak in her eyes. If you won’t do it for your marriage, do for your kids, who will not want their almost middle aged mom being the desperate cougar on the prowl. 

PS, she’s losing weight to attract a new guy and shaving her vag to be ready to impress. When looking through her text and social media, watch for new friends. It’s common to use a woman’s name for the new guy to throw you off.


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## Livvie

She already is. What she is already doing is cheating lite.


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## Diana7

arodathon said:


> Sorry, I agree the replies are fine. More just that it's not what I wanted to hear really.


Maybe not what you wanted to hear but what you need to hear?


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## arodathon

Diana7 said:


> Maybe not what you wanted to hear but what you need to hear?


I made a post about my stuff here I know she lied and now I question everything


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## Captain Obvious

She's lost weight, she's started waxing, she's feeling more confident and sexy. Random horny dudes buying her drinks and lavishing her with attention is reinforcing this. Best case scenario, she was feeling you out because she wants to sample the beefcake buffet, worst case scenario is she already has(gone way past the peck on the cheek and the dirty dancing phase) and was hoping you'd be okay with it or even turned on by it and would encourage her to continue. But even if it's the best case scenario, her behavior is way past inappropriate.


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## Evinrude58

They don’t wax their bushes because they want A peck on the cheek.


----------



## Casual Observer

BurntEnds said:


> The two and my wife are all teachers. The oldest is also in a trusting marriage. The younger one has only been married for a month. My wife gives me free reign of her phone. I can snoop at my leisure.


I would be very concerned they're getting their kicks through watching your wife "perform" for the guys. They may even be egging her on, both for entertainment value and vicarious pleasure.


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## Talker67

You and her role played her cheating on you while having sex.
She orgasmed intensely (i assume) from that combination, and has been thinking about it a lot. She probably masturbates thinking of sleeping with other men now.
And presumably you enjoyed the role play also.

She has GNOs, and has the opportunity to have sex with other men, and it most likely turns her on even more....she is thinking about it all the time now. And since you two role played all this, she is feeling you out to see if it would turn you on if it really happened--that would give her permission, and would mean she would not have to hide it anymore.

So i guess you are at the edge of a cliff looking over at the rocks below, and having second thoughts. She...is ready to jump, and is either waiting for your permission, or already has. and her Girlfriends are likely egging her on to go all the way.

decision time. either open up your marriage, and let her become a hot wife, OR shut it all down, talk seriously to her and admit you were initially turned on by the idea, but after thinking of it, and the consequences, you do NOT want her doing it.

if you are lucky, she has not done the deed yet, and you can keep it all as a fantasy.
but "kissing" a man in a bar as she was drunk is really translation for "i stroked his penis in his car", or "I got laid in a hotel room and liked it". she most likely did a lot more than just kissing him, and your reaction shut her down from telling you about it.

and dude, if you are going to let her go out and get laid, make sure there is at least some reciprocity, and you can go get laid too!

if she has not done the deed, you are going to have to talk her back from that edge. she has run this fantasy in her mind a hundred times, most likely, and is mentally all-in on doing it at this point


----------



## marko polo

If your wife is not grooming herself and looking better for you she is doing it for someone else. 

Assume you are betrayed. Get tested for STDs. Consider hiring a private investigator to get documented proof.


----------



## aine

BurntEnds said:


> Hi, new member here.....concerned about a conversation I had with my wife last night so I am coming here for feedback.
> So my wife and I have been happily married for about 15 years. We have 2 kids and we have a trusting relationship with little to no bumps, just the usual nitpicky stuff here and there but nothing major. Neither of us has ever cheated on each other, however, for the majority of our marriage, we have always expressed our fantasies with one another when getting intimate. The most common fantasies have been the two of us with another man joining in (typically my fantasy) or her and another man with me in the same room watching (all her fantasy). Through the years, this has been our typical "dirty talk" and we have always discussed that it's just that and nothing more. She usually brings up, "I'm a mother and I would just feel immense shame afterwards" so there is a track record of this just being dirty talk.
> My wife goes out with her girlfriends every now and then, maybe twice a month and usually to a karaoke bar or a brewhouse. I on the other hand generally stay home with the kids and just keep to myself, I don't really have any friends and really just keep my free time confined to my family.
> Anyways, about 2 weeks ago, my wife went out with the girls and maybe had a little too much to drink as she was hungover the next day. Well last night, we were getting intimate and talking dirty. Lately she has been losing weight and started waxing "down there" and she has been feeling sexier and more confident which is something that she has always struggled with (i.e. low self esteem). Well, during our dirty talk, I asked her things like, "do you notice guys looking at you when you go out?" and she starts giggling and recounts that night 2 weeks ago and says that yes, men were looking at her that night and some even bought her drinks. During our foreplay, I tried to get more information out of her, while still in the guise of "fantasy mode" and she starts saying things like, "what would you let me do with other men?" I ask her "what do you want to do?" And she says "are you okay if I flirt with other men?" I say sure, and she asks if I am okay if a man buys her a drink and dances with her. Again, I say sure, just to gather more "now very real" information and I ask her "what else do you want to do?" To which she says "I want to kiss other men". At this point, I am alarmed, and I feel like I am much to blame given our ongoing fantasies, so after we are done being intimate, I ask her "how much of what we discussed was just fantasy?" We had a 2 hour conversation and she tells me essentially that she doesn't want to sleep with other men, that she just enjoys the confidence boost, the free drinks and likes to dance. We discuss kissing, to which I say "kissing on the mouth is basically where cheating starts". That basically caused her to sink into her shell because she knew that was the nail on the head for me. She then disagrees and says it depends on how it's done. I ask her for examples and she says a peck on the cheek as a "thanks for the dance/drink" is wholly different than a full fledged makeout session. I tell her, "would you be uncomfortable with me kissing another woman?" And she circles back to "if it's a little peck, I wouldn't care but if it was open mouth with tongue, then yeah I would be upset".
> So basically after this long discussion, we establish that a guy buying her a drink, some dancing and flirting is "fine" but that kissing is where I see the start of being unfaithful. She says the attention she gets is what causes her to come home extra frisky and is why she always wants to jump my bones lately.
> I never fell asleep, and I still have knots in my stomach just recounting the whole ordeal but really I'm just worried that this is now the beginning of a difficult to manage situation. I feel like she "has permission" to go further than she's gone before with "kissing" being the line in the sand, but I know that if it ever gets to that point, human nature is bound to throw caution to the wind and just deal with the ramifications later, especially when the types of men that are solely going to bars go to basically get laid.
> I hope I can solicit some female responses as I feel her situation is relatable. Of course, all feedback is welcome.
> -Troubled in Texas


I guess the boundaries were not clearly set on day 1, so here you have it. Now to have that talk


----------



## Kaliber

@BurntEnds every one gave you good advice, so no point repeating!
But I'm *VERY* concerned about this:


BurntEnds said:


> I don't really have any friends and really just keep my free time confined to my family.


No friends, hobby or gym?
Start going to the gym and start lifting, keep in shape and better yourself!
You need to have male friends (a must) and at least one hobby!
I can't stress enough how many BH (Betrayed husbands) are similar to you!

You told us she is grooming herself!
So read: Standard Evidence Post


----------



## manwithnoname

If it was me, I'd dump her. 

If you want to stay with her, and she likes the excitement of flirting, it should be a rule where you go with her and let her get drinks bought for her, flirt, dance etc. but then she goes home with you and the two of you go at it like animals in heat while she thinks about other guys. 

Or you can just embrace the role of ****.


----------



## Numb26

manwithnoname said:


> Or you can just embrace the role of ****.


Sounds like he already has. For all we know he likes being on the cleanup crew


----------



## SunCMars

Evinrude58 said:


> They don’t wax their bushes because they want A peck on the cheek.


Agreed.
I believe those bushes are bounded by cheeks, of sorts.

This waxing is the *reddest* of all *flags. *

With few *exceptions you wax the the cut _gem _for others, seeing, use and pleasure, yes, ultimately, for the lady herself.

This is, at its warm core, prepping the pretty thing for future action.

Bare lips are inviting to other's, their bare lips.



*bikini wearing


_The Typist-_


----------



## oldshirt

It’s ok to play with fire provided the fire department and paramedics are parked in your driveway and your insurance is all paid up to date. 

It’s ok to have this fantasy fun talk. It’s ok to go out with friends. It’s even ok to have 3somes and have an open marriage or be swingers or whatever. 

However the more you venture away from traditional monogamy and sexual exclusivity, the STRONGER and more specific and more exacting your boundaries need to be and you need to smackdown the slightest boundary incursion with the iron hand of discipline. 

It’s ok to have a non traditional sexual dynamic but understand that it will require MORE work and higher standards of conduct and more ironclad boundaries, not less. 

A traditional, monogamous couple will often have one rule in terms of contact with others - DONT!!

A non traditional couple will have dozens and dozens of various and even conflicting rules and limits and boundaries, and then they can find themselves becoming the Genitalia Police to make sure that if there is any kissing going on that there isn’t any tongue or that if there is oral taking place that there isn’t any swallowing etc etc

Any kind of open marriage is going to be MORE work and more boundaries and more monitoring and enforcement, not less.

You’ll need to ask yourselves if getting free drinks and some dancing and some kissy kiss etc is going to be worth the extra hassle. 

Cont....


----------



## oldshirt

Now where I think you’re dropping the ball here is it sounds like your discussions on the matter here are largely taking place when the hormones are flowing and you are both aroused and horny or coming home drunk and full of horny hormones etc. 

That’s fine and fun HOWEVER these are extremely serious topics that can have devastating effects on your home and marriage. This isn’t something that should be left up to fun and games while the hormones are flowing. 

These are things that need to be discussed stone cold sober during the light of day when no one has any alcohol or horny hormones on board. 

This needs to be deadpan serious with straight faces, uncompromising eye contact and serious tone of voice with exacting boundaries being out in place and clear understanding or what the results and outcomes of boundary violation will be.


----------



## oldshirt

Cont...

Athol Kay put it pretty well in his Married Man Sex Life book - I’m paraphrasing here but he basically said “ It’s ok to be a swinger, but you will need to be the biggest, most badazz stud in town.”

At the moment you are setting yourself up for failure because you are taking a passive, supporting role in her sexual adventures.

You are being the babysitter and nanny while the town studs get her juices flowing. 

Chicks don’t desire the nanny. They desire the studs that are grinding and seducing them on the dance floor and rubbing their hard junk in their pants up against them. 

It’s just a matter of time (assuming it hasn’t happened already) that she is going to fall for one of these hunks and you will become the full time nanny and the one that launders her underwear soaked with other men’s sperm.


----------



## oldshirt

BurntEnds said:


> the only thing that heavies my heart is her reaction to the "kiss" talk. I do trust that she is not trying to cheat, naive as that may sound, I just feel like she is getting new found attention at the moment and is trying to navigate through it.


That’s not naivette, that is negligence. 

You are neglecting your marriage and your role as husband because she is coming home drunk and horny (from other men’s seduction and foreplay) and giving you blow jobs. 

You’re being sexually lazy. 

You think you’ve one-upped the system, but the reality is you are becoming the nanny while the town studs are the ones getting her juices flowing. 

You’re not being naive, you are outright neglecting and ignoring human nature because you think it has been to your benefit thus far. 

But the clock is ticking down to when she will fall for one or more of these studs and she will see you as the nanny and the maid and she will lose all sexual attraction and desire for you and will shift all of her sexual energies to the other man(s).

You are probably DAYS from this happening, if not already. 

This is a completely predictable and algorithmic path - it WILL happen. This is human nature and it follows a very regular and predictable pattern. 

You’ve been informed. It’s on you now.


----------



## oldshirt

BurntEnds said:


> I just feel like she is getting new found attention at the moment and is trying to navigate through it. Note that this is a recent phenomenon which is why I am so out of sorts but open communication is key


This isn’t some kind of sexual awakening or new chapter of self discovery or self awareness. She’s not blossoming into some new sexual creature that will bless you with a lifetime of erotic bliss.

She is a flesh and blood woman out hitting the streets looking for the next bigger, better deal. 

She may be telling you she’s in it for attention, but in the clubs she’s marketing herself as an available woman and once someone she thinks is a bigger, better deal than you offers her full time, you’ll be helping her haul her stuff into his house. 

I strongly urge you to look up and understand hypergamy because you are about to get smacked in the face with it.


----------



## jsmart

Holy moly. You need to read @oldshirt last few post several times. I co-sign on to them 100%.

You better lay down the law because your family hangs in the balance. Also you better lay off the porn, which I suspect is what has sold you on the desire to see your wife being taken by another man. We’ve read to many threads like yours. It never ends well for the husband. What’s even sadder, is that many of these threads are by men in long term marriages with kids.


----------



## Talker67

aine said:


> I guess the boundaries were not clearly set on day 1, so here you have it. Now to have that talk


boundaries are everything.
If you want to play with fire, you need some fire retardant gloves, and maybe a fire extinguisher or two lying around.

If you want this Hotwife role play to expand into the real world, what ARE the boundaries?

Some hotwife boundaries i have heard of:

can only date the same guy four times max (to keep from falling in love with him)
no sex in your house. and ESPECIALLY no sex in your marital bed.
some guys assist in picking out a stud for her. Some women want to do it 100% by themselves. need to figure that out.
nobody at work (to keep her from getting fired)
Sometimes the husband is involved (MFM), sometimes not, sometimes hubby is there but humiliated for his pleasure. 

and so on.
there are actual hotwife forums online where you can chat with other guys in your situation. some have a female only part, where hotwives can talk to other prospective hotwives, and give advice.

Most people will warn you to NOT do this, since it means your marriage is over. 
but it sounds like you are already most of the way there...so IF you are choosing to move forward, at least do it with both of your eyes open!


----------



## SunCMars

What I would love to do and witness, is to listen to the ladies on TAM reading this, and digesting what is being said in this post and posts, even more 'salacious'.

How do they 'honestly' feel about flirting and roping in strange men?
Those one night stands, maybe, one hour lay-downs?

What is it, that they are really thinking when they hear of these things?

Do they feel disgusted?
Do they feel secretly stimulated?

Or, are they amazed at how some other people think and act?


_Nemesis-_


----------



## oldshirt

SunCMars said:


> What I would love to do and witness, is to listen to the ladies on TAM reading this, and digesting what is being said in this post and posts, even more 'salacious'.
> 
> How do they 'honestly' feel about flirting and roping in strange men?
> Those one night stands, maybe, one hour lay-downs?
> 
> What is it, that they are really thinking when they hear of these things?
> 
> Do they feel disgusted?
> Do they feel secretly stimulated?
> 
> Or, are they amazed at how some other people think and act?
> 
> 
> _Nemesis-_


I don’t know about women in general, but I’m willing to bet that most of the women here on TAM just shake their heads and roll their eyes and chalk it up to another dumb guy who’s letting his little head do all the thinking instead of his big head.


----------



## oldshirt

oldshirt said:


> That’s not naivette, that is negligence.
> 
> You are neglecting your marriage and your role as husband because she is coming home drunk and horny (from other men’s seduction and foreplay) and giving you blow jobs.
> 
> You’re being sexually lazy.
> 
> You think you’ve one-upped the system, but the reality is you are becoming the nanny while the town studs are the ones getting her juices flowing.
> 
> You’re not being naive, you are outright neglecting and ignoring human nature because you think it has been to your benefit thus far.


I made a pretty strong statement above so I figured I better back it up. 

So let me ask you this - when was the last time YOU took her out dancing? 

When was the last time you took her out with friends and bought her drinks and focused your attentions on her?

When was the last time you dirty danced with her and ground your hard junk into her while whispering in her ear all the things you wanted to do with her out in the parking lot? 

When was the last time you were Big John Stud and showed her what a real man can do? 

Instead of farming her out for other men to stimulate her while you sit home hoping she comes home horny enough to blow you, when was the last time you woo’d her and seduced her and took her to Pound Town and left her unable to walk on your own merits??? 

Like I said in my initial post, it’s ok to play these little fantasy games and it’s even ok to actually have sex with other people.....but if you want her to park her shoes under your bed at the end of the night, you have to be the Top Dog and her best lover and best option. 

Can you sit there with a straight face and make the valid claim that you are her biggest and baddest stud horse???


----------



## Cici1990

As a woman on TAM and as a cheater and attention wh*re, I still only speak for myself here when I say that not all women are turned on by men grinding on them on the dance floor and whispering perverted things in their ears - whether that man is their husband or some hot guy in a club. I’d be so grossed out if my husband or any man did that to me because I just finding grinding sort of embarrassing and cringeworthy. It doesn’t get me going at all. So don’t generalize all women here, ok?

I do know that many women are turned on by that stuff though. It certainly sounds like it’s the stuff that gets OP’s wife going, so it’s a relevant point here. I agree that OP should try going out and doing these things with his wife instead of sitting at home in the sidelines. If you don’t know how then learn how.

I’ve actually always been turned on by hot dads. Even as a teenager I always had crushes on hot dads that I knew. So, I’d probably screw the hot dad who is babysitting his kid over the hot guy grinding at the club. Actually, when I did have an affair it was with a hot dad, not some guy I met at the club. Point is, if somebody doesn’t have strong boundaries and they fall into a situation where somebody who floats their boat and rings their bells presents themselves and is willing, eventually there’s a good chance that something will happen. In the case of OP’s wife, it probably would be with one of the hot guys at the club that she’s grinding on and kissing. I just hate when people want to generalize that all women want the kind of macho guy at the club rubbing his junk on her because it’s not what every single one of us into.


----------



## BurntEnds

SunCMars said:


> What I would love to do and witness, is to listen to the ladies on TAM reading this, and digesting what is being said in this post and posts, even more 'salacious'.
> 
> How do they 'honestly' feel about flirting and roping in strange men?
> Those one night stands, maybe, one hour lay-downs?
> 
> What is it, that they are really thinking when they hear of these things?
> 
> Do they feel disgusted?
> Do they feel secretly stimulated?
> 
> Or, are they amazed at how some other people think and act?
> 
> 
> _Nemesis-_


I agree, I would love a genuine female perspective. I would like to know their honest feelings when flirted with, bough a drink and invited for a dance versus their honest reactions to these 3 specific things.


----------



## BurntEnds

Talker67 said:


> boundaries are everything.
> If you want to play with fire, you need some fire retardant gloves, and maybe a fire extinguisher or two lying around.
> 
> If you want this Hotwife role play to expand into the real world, what ARE the boundaries?
> 
> Some hotwife boundaries i have heard of:
> 
> can only date the same guy four times max (to keep from falling in love with him)
> no sex in your house. and ESPECIALLY no sex in your marital bed.
> some guys assist in picking out a stud for her. Some women want to do it 100% by themselves. need to figure that out.
> nobody at work (to keep her from getting fired)
> Sometimes the husband is involved (MFM), sometimes not, sometimes hubby is there but humiliated for his pleasure.
> 
> and so on.
> there are actual hotwife forums online where you can chat with other guys in your situation. some have a female only part, where hotwives can talk to other prospective hotwives, and give advice.
> 
> Most people will warn you to NOT do this, since it means your marriage is over.
> but it sounds like you are already most of the way there...so IF you are choosing to move forward, at least do it with both of your eyes open!


My boundary is "flirt, dance and have a drink" but it stops there. Anything further than that (i.e. - groping breasts, getting grabby, kissing, etc. is off limits). I'm comfortable with these boundaries so long as they are met (which is totally dependent on the honor system), I just don't know how human nature can get it from escalating, especially when booze is involved.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

BurntEnds said:


> My boundary is "flirt, dance and have a drink" but it stops there. Anything further than that (i.e. - groping breasts, getting grabby, kissing, etc. is off limits). I'm comfortable with these boundaries so long as they are met (which is totally dependent on the honor system), I just don't know how human nature can get it from escalating, especially when booze is involved.


Throw in enough alcohol and all inhibitions are gone, so is that honor system.


----------



## BurntEnds

Cici1990 said:


> As a woman on TAM and as a cheater and attention wh*re, I still only speak for myself here when I say that not all women are turned on by men grinding on them on the dance floor and whispering perverted things in their ears - whether that man is their husband or some hot guy in a club. I’d be so grossed out if my husband or any man did that to me because I just finding grinding sort of embarrassing and cringeworthy. It doesn’t get me going at all. So don’t generalize all women here, ok?
> 
> I do know that many women are turned on by that stuff though. It certainly sounds like it’s the stuff that gets OP’s wife going, so it’s a relevant point here. I agree that OP should try going out and doing these things with his wife instead of sitting at home in the sidelines. If you don’t know how then learn how.
> 
> I’ve actually always been turned on by hot dads. Even as a teenager I always had crushes on hot dads that I knew. So, I’d probably screw the hot dad who is babysitting his kid over the hot guy grinding at the club. Actually, when I did have an affair it was with a hot dad, not some guy I met at the club. Point is, if somebody doesn’t have strong boundaries and they fall into a situation where somebody who floats their boat and rings their bells presents themselves and is willing, eventually there’s a good chance that something will happen. In the case of OP’s wife, it probably would be with one of the hot guys at the club that she’s grinding on and kissing. I just hate when people want to generalize that all women want the kind of macho guy at the club rubbing his junk on her because it’s not what every single one of us into.


I agree, my wife has always been into nerdy, quiet types like myself. She doesn't go for that "toxic masculinity" stereotype


----------



## HappilyMarried1

BurntEnds said:


> I agree, my wife has always been into nerdy, quiet types like myself. She doesn't go for that "toxic masculinity" stereotype


I know you told me in answering my comments and questions you said you were going to have a serious talk with your wife last night I was just curious to how that went and if you either got these GNO stopped, or you and her go out together or you got some firm boundaries agreed on by both of you.


----------



## Cici1990

BurntEnds said:


> I agree, my wife has always been into nerdy, quiet types like myself. She doesn't go for that "toxic masculinity" stereotype


Or does she?

Based on what you’ve said here, it sounds like she is really getting excited by these men. Maybe her tastes have changed and she hasn’t made you clearly aware. I wouldn’t be as concerned by it if she wasn’t getting so much sexual excitement out if it and there wasn’t the alcohol involved. I don’t think anyone here knows enough to declare in absolutes that she is definitely going to cheat (as in any sort of sex) or that she already has. I don’t get the impression that she is scheming to find somebody else to sleep with. Yes, even the waxing of her cha cha doesn’t automatically mean she’s preparing herself for new men. I do feel that it could be a situation where there aren’t the firmest of boundaries, she’s really loving the attention she’s getting, and with enough alcohol and the right guy doing and saying the right things something could eventually happen that maybe she didn’t intend ahead of time but oops it happens anyway.


----------



## Captain Obvious

BurntEnds said:


> My boundary is "flirt, dance and have a drink" but it stops there. Anything further than that (i.e. - groping breasts, getting grabby, kissing, etc. is off limits). I'm comfortable with these boundaries so long as they are met (which is totally dependent on the honor system), I just don't know how human nature can get it from escalating, especially when booze is involved.


Your current boundary list is going to put your wife into another man's bed while you play stay at home dad with the kids.


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## Amanhasnoname

BurntEnds said:


> *My boundary is "flirt, dance and have a drink" but it stops there. Anything further than that (i.e. - groping breasts, getting grabby, kissing, etc. is off limits). I'm comfortable with these boundaries so long as they are met (which is totally dependent on the honor system), *I just don't know how human nature can get it from escalating, especially when booze is involved.


You're prodding her towards the fire with a burning stick my friend, only you're both going to get burned!
Now she knows that they are your boundaries it's only a matter of time before one night after a little too much to drink she takes a tentative (or maybe not so tentative) step over your boundaries, or maybe she already has. Once that happens there will be no going back and in no time at all she will be stomping all over your boundaries will great big hobnail flipping boots.

I urge you to come down on all this nonsense like a ton of bricks NOW, before it's too late.


----------



## Diana7

SunCMars said:


> What I would love to do and witness, is to listen to the ladies on TAM reading this, and digesting what is being said in this post and posts, even more 'salacious'.
> 
> How do they 'honestly' feel about flirting and roping in strange men?
> Those one night stands, maybe, one hour lay-downs?
> 
> What is it, that they are really thinking when they hear of these things?
> 
> Do they feel disgusted?
> Do they feel secretly stimulated?
> 
> Or, are they amazed at how some other people think and act?
> 
> 
> _Nemesis-_


I am amazed at how they think and act. A married lady going out and flirting, drinking, dancing and kissing other men is crazy. I can't understand any husband who enables that to happen.


----------



## Amanhasnoname

BurntEnds said:


> I agree, my wife has always been into nerdy, quiet types like myself. She doesn't go for that "toxic masculinity" stereotype


After 15 years of that she maybe thinking it would be nice to sample some of that exicitng "toxic masculinity".

Do you think that generally speaking most of those type of guys would be role playing to watch their wives having sex with other men? I doubt it myself. 
Maybe you should incorporate more masculinity into your bedroom fantasies & forget about the cuckolding.


----------



## jlg07

BurntEnds said:


> My boundary is "flirt, dance and have a drink" but it stops there. Anything further than that (i.e. - groping breasts, getting grabby, kissing, etc. is off limits). I'm comfortable with these boundaries so long as they are met (which is totally dependent on the honor system), I just don't know how human nature can get it from escalating, especially when booze is involved.


Drinking and dancing with other men while YOU are not there? I just have to say your boundaries are lousy.
A married woman doesn't need to do that and DOES NOT need to be flirting with strange men while drinking and you not there.

She's married -- NONE of that is ok.


----------



## SunCMars

BurntEnds said:


> My boundary is "flirt, dance and have a drink" but it stops there. Anything further than that (i.e. - groping breasts, getting grabby, kissing, etc. is off limits). I'm comfortable with these boundaries so long as they are met (which is totally dependent on the honor system), *I just don't know how human nature can get it from escalating, especially when booze is involved.*


Just say that it can't.

That covers the majority of those found in clubs and the sort, yes, that ilk.

Human nature is to love and be loved.
That loving is choreographed, with whole body movements.

What BE's wife is doing.. is teasing....
I left out the 'C' word.

She is losing herself in the heat of the moment, the rythme of the music.

I think of dancing birds, those wishing to be in Paradise.


----------



## Talker67

BurntEnds said:


> My boundary is "flirt, dance and have a drink" but it stops there. Anything further than that (i.e. - groping breasts, getting grabby, kissing, etc. is off limits). I'm comfortable with these boundaries so long as they are met (which is totally dependent on the honor system), I just don't know how human nature can get it from escalating, especially when booze is involved.


good. that is pretty well defined.
but have you talked it over with HER? what does she say. she might interpret your boundaries as allowing her to go to the back seat of a guy's car she meets at a bar, and make out. and once there, what is to stop the guy from massaging her in ways that she begs him to keep going?

you really need a rock solid agreement, no weasel words from her at all on it.

but this "enforcement" talk is up to you. You can pass on all of it. for instance, just tell her your boundaries, and leave the rest as a "don't ask, don't tell" arrangement. You will be happy, as you do not know the details, and She will be happy because she can interpret your boundaries as she sees fit. and that might include kissing....just not on her lips.

however, a lot of guys get their enjoyment hearing their wife tell them what they just did. In which case, that might be the boundary, you can do as you like, so long as you tell be every detail of the night.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Talker67 said:


> good. that is pretty well defined.
> but have you talked it over with HER? what does she say. she might interpret your boundaries as allowing her to go to the back seat of a guy's car she meets at a bar, and make out. and once there, what is to stop the guy from massaging her in ways that she begs him to keep going?
> 
> you really need a rock solid agreement, no weasel words from her at all on it.


They be well defined, but they are still completely wrong. The proper boundary for a married person is 0 flirting, period. The ENTIRE purpose of flirting is to make someone think you are sexually attracted to them. How can it be okay for a married woman to make other men think she is sexually interested in them?


----------



## Talker67

BigDaddyNY said:


> They be well defined, but they are still completely wrong.* The proper boundary for a married person is 0 flirting,* period. The ENTIRE purpose of flirting is to make someone think you are sexually attracted to them. How can it be okay for a married woman to make other men think she is sexually interested in them?


normally that is true. but i believe the OP and his wife are way beyond that point. that toothpaste is not getting put back into the tube.
OP needs advice on how to proceed forward from here.


----------



## oldshirt

BurntEnds said:


> I agree, my wife has always been into nerdy, quiet types like myself. She doesn't go for that "toxic masculinity" stereotype


Quiet nerdy types are the guys that would legitimately date and marry her and that she was able to secure as a mate and coparent. 

That doesn’t mean she doesn’t get turned on and desire the guys at the club,

obviously she does because she said so herself to you that she likes them giving her attention, dancing and that she wants to kiss them ...... which also means she wants to have sex with them.

And it also needs to pointed out that “toxic masculinity “ is a 2020 feminist term used to shame men with traditional values, characteristics and behaviors.

Prior to 2020 these men were known as attractive men that get lots of chicks.


----------



## Livvie

I guarantee nerdy quiet types are not the ones she is flirting with, getting drinks from, dancing with, and kissing. 

She likes way more than nerdy quiet types. 

I wouldn't stay married to a man who was flirting with and dancing with other women. 

I find it interesting this is something you are tolerating.


----------



## BurntEnds

HappilyMarried1 said:


> I know you told me in answering my comments and questions you said you were going to have a serious talk with your wife last night I was just curious to how that went and if you either got these GNO stopped, or you and her go out together or you got some firm boundaries agreed on by both of you.


Hello, yes we did talk last night in depth. And the kissing was the first matter to tend to, so I asked and probed and I genuinely believe that she did not kiss any man or men with her lips and theirs. I do believe that she plopped a big wet smacker on a cheek as a thank you of sorts. I've known my wife long enough that I know when she isnt being up front. She typically is always up front, and when she's not, she dances around what she doesn't want to say, , I tell her "just tell me" and she does. She's not a liar. I on the other hand will lie from time to time, little things but intentional lies regardless (why didn't you pick up so and so at the grocery store? Oh, I thought I did, the cashier must've not sacked it, when in reality I just forgot). When I asked her if she's kissed anyone, I assured her that we could "come back from it" but to just be honest about it because this is a serious matter and honesty is the only way to get through. She took a deep breath and said "no, I haven't kissed anyone on the lips" and I said "show me then how you have" and she demonstrated , what I can only refer to as a "big ol' smooch" on the cheek. So I'm not concerned with a kiss, and truth be told I'm not worried that she has slept around. I did have my concerns that she had some kind of subconscious messaging due to our explicit fantasy talk that it would have my blessing if she did and I told her, "I feel like our sex talk has been sending you subconscious messages that I WANT you to cheat on me" and she told me "I've never taken that you want me to go out and find another guy. Is that what you think I've been wanting to do?" And I told her that I just feel that she thinks she has subconscious permission to sleep with other men. She went on about how we have a great structure with our family life and how she needs us both to be upfront with what we are feeling because she can't do this (family life) without me. She suggested to cut out the sex talk entirely, like to not even bring that kind of stuff up. I'll be honest, what I give her sexually at home "does the job". I'm not trying to sound like a stud because I am far from it but I do pleasure her 3 or 4 times every time we have a go at it. And sometimes we make passionate love with no dirty talk and other times we have raunchy heavy raw intimacy. Our sex life did have a lull many years ago but I occasionally take pills to help and it really has been super ever since. If I thought her to cheat, I would have thought it to be back then. I guess the thing that turns off a lot of people here is my comfort level with her having a drink bought for her, having a guy flirt with her or dancing with her. I know that's a lot for some to be okay with, but I've always had enough trust in her that she wouldn't let it get that far. I still do, but now that I had established the clear boundary of "kissing is cheating", she knows my limits. I guess the "kinky talk" is what has be more okay with that than others would permit. But we also don't have a "you can't even TALK" to the opposite sex when I'm not around type of relationship. She doesn't willingly intend to "go find a guy to dance with, flirt with and get drunk with", but it is happening more that she has been working on herself. In my younger days, the shoe was on the other foot and girls would talk to me and she would get very jealous. I just said "I'll never talk to another woman again when your not around" and its pretty much been that way ever since. I guess this is where I am after the talk.....I believe she still loves me and wants to make the marriage work. I believe she has not cheated on me. I believe she wants to make an effort to take my sensitivities into account and not trample on them. But I don't know that after "1 drink too many", that escalation can be avoided. I'm not going to tell her she can't go out with her friends, and as you know, her friends are also mothers with kids and families so i don't think she is around bad influences. She is going to play music bingo this Friday with the gals so I guess I'll just let time take it's course and gauge my trust level by then. Is she messes up, I know her "I messed up" body language all too well. There's no hiding that, it's impossible for her to. She genuinely is the most honest one in the relationship. I did tell her, "don't drink past your limit, I don't want you losing your inhibitions and feeling sick the day after" and I just have to place my trust and pray that's the case.


----------



## oldshirt

Cici1990 said:


> As a woman on TAM and as a cheater and attention wh*re, I still only speak for myself here when I say that not all women are turned on by men grinding on them on the dance floor and whispering perverted things in their ears - whether that man is their husband or some hot guy in a club. I’d be so grossed out if my husband or any man did that to me because I just finding grinding sort of embarrassing and cringeworthy. It doesn’t get me going at all. So don’t generalize all women here, ok?
> 
> I do know that many women are turned on by that stuff though. It certainly sounds like it’s the stuff that gets OP’s wife going, so it’s a relevant point here..


Yes it is a relevant point here because while it's true that there are some women that are not into clubbing and being hit on by other men, the OP's wife DOES. 

She has came right out and stated that she wants the attention, wants to dance with other dudes and has stated upfront to him that she wants to lip-lock with other dudes which is just a lo-carb way of saying she wants to get down with other dudes. 
For all intents and purposes, she is saying she wants an open marriage. She wants to be able to have sexual interaction and contact with other men while he babysits at home. 

Now it's OK for couples to have an open marriage and it's OK to have sex with other people as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult. I'm not judging that. 

BUT, the OP needs to understand the risks and needs to understand just what it is that he is up against here and what he stands to lose if he continues to babysit while he sends her out to score with other men. 

And he needs to understand and accept human nature, male nature and female nature for what it actually is and not for what he hopes and wishes it to be that is convenient to him.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

BurntEnds said:


> Hello, yes we did talk last night in depth. And the kissing was the first matter to tend to, so I asked and probed and I genuinely believe that she did not kiss any man or men with her lips and theirs. I do believe that she plopped a big wet smacker on a cheek as a thank you of sorts. I've known my wife long enough that I know when she isnt being up front. She typically is always up front, and when she's not, she dances around what she doesn't want to say, , I tell her "just tell me" and she does. She's not a liar. I on the other hand will lie from time to time, little things but intentional lies regardless (why didn't you pick up so and so at the grocery store? Oh, I thought I did, the cashier must've not sacked it, when in reality I just forgot). When I asked her if she's kissed anyone, I assured her that we could "come back from it" but to just be honest about it because this is a serious matter and honesty is the only way to get through. She took a deep breath and said "no, I haven't kissed anyone on the lips" and I said "show me then how you have" and she demonstrated , what I can only refer to as a "big ol' smooch" on the cheek. So I'm not concerned with a kiss, and truth be told I'm not worried that she has slept around. I did have my concerns that she had some kind of subconscious messaging due to our explicit fantasy talk that it would have my blessing if she did and I told her, "I feel like our sex talk has been sending you subconscious messages that I WANT you to cheat on me" and she told me "I've never taken that you want me to go out and find another guy. Is that what you think I've been wanting to do?" And I told her that I just feel that she thinks she has subconscious permission to sleep with other men. She went on about how we have a great structure with our family life and how she needs us both to be upfront with what we are feeling because she can't do this (family life) without me. She suggested to cut out the sex talk entirely, like to not even bring that kind of stuff up. I'll be honest, what I give her sexually at home "does the job". I'm not trying to sound like a stud because I am far from it but I do pleasure her 3 or 4 times every time we have a go at it. And sometimes we make passionate love with no dirty talk and other times we have raunchy heavy raw intimacy. Our sex life did have a lull many years ago but I occasionally take pills to help and it really has been super ever since. If I thought her to cheat, I would have thought it to be back then. I guess the thing that turns off a lot of people here is my comfort level with her having a drink bought for her, having a guy flirt with her or dancing with her. I know that's a lot for some to be okay with, but I've always had enough trust in her that she wouldn't let it get that far. I still do, but now that I had established the clear boundary of "kissing is cheating", she knows my limits. I guess the "kinky talk" is what has be more okay with that than others would permit. But we also don't have a "you can't even TALK" to the opposite sex when I'm not around type of relationship. She doesn't willingly intend to "go find a guy to dance with, flirt with and get drunk with", but it is happening more that she has been working on herself. In my younger days, the shoe was on the other foot and girls would talk to me and she would get very jealous. I just said "I'll never talk to another woman again when your not around" and its pretty much been that way ever since. I guess this is where I am after the talk.....I believe she still loves me and wants to make the marriage work. I believe she has not cheated on me. I believe she wants to make an effort to take my sensitivities into account and not trample on them. But I don't know that after "1 drink too many", that escalation can be avoided. I'm not going to tell her she can't go out with her friends, and as you know, her friends are also mothers with kids and families so i don't think she is around bad influences. She is going to play music bingo this Friday with the gals so I guess I'll just let time take it's course and gauge my trust level by then. Is she messes up, I know her "I messed up" body language all too well. There's no hiding that, it's impossible for her to. She genuinely is the most honest one in the relationship. I did tell her, "don't drink past your limit, I don't want you losing your inhibitions and feeling sick the day after" and I just have to place my trust and pray that's the case.


Very positive development. I personally wouldn't be okay with the flirting, but this is your marriage not mine. What you say here sounds like a woman just having a good time and you set clear boundaries. Your point about drinking too much is very valid and hopefully she takes that to heart. I also think it would be a good idea to get to know the other women she goes out with and their husbands. If nothing else it may afford you the opportunity to reinforce to them that they need to take care to keep each other out of trouble.


----------



## Migi

BurntEnds said:


> Hi, new member here.....concerned about a conversation I had with my wife last night so I am coming here for feedback.
> So my wife and I have been happily married for about 15 years. We have 2 kids and we have a trusting relationship with little to no bumps, just the usual nitpicky stuff here and there but nothing major. Neither of us has ever cheated on each other, however, for the majority of our marriage, we have always expressed our fantasies with one another when getting intimate. The most common fantasies have been the two of us with another man joining in (typically my fantasy) or her and another man with me in the same room watching (all her fantasy). Through the years, this has been our typical "dirty talk" and we have always discussed that it's just that and nothing more. She usually brings up, "I'm a mother and I would just feel immense shame afterwards" so there is a track record of this just being dirty talk.
> My wife goes out with her girlfriends every now and then, maybe twice a month and usually to a karaoke bar or a brewhouse. I on the other hand generally stay home with the kids and just keep to myself, I don't really have any friends and really just keep my free time confined to my family.
> Anyways, about 2 weeks ago, my wife went out with the girls and maybe had a little too much to drink as she was hungover the next day. Well last night, we were getting intimate and talking dirty. Lately she has been losing weight and started waxing "down there" and she has been feeling sexier and more confident which is something that she has always struggled with (i.e. low self esteem). Well, during our dirty talk, I asked her things like, "do you notice guys looking at you when you go out?" and she starts giggling and recounts that night 2 weeks ago and says that yes, men were looking at her that night and some even bought her drinks. During our foreplay, I tried to get more information out of her, while still in the guise of "fantasy mode" and she starts saying things like, "what would you let me do with other men?" I ask her "what do you want to do?" And she says "are you okay if I flirt with other men?" I say sure, and she asks if I am okay if a man buys her a drink and dances with her. Again, I say sure, just to gather more "now very real" information and I ask her "what else do you want to do?" To which she says "I want to kiss other men". At this point, I am alarmed, and I feel like I am much to blame given our ongoing fantasies, so after we are done being intimate, I ask her "how much of what we discussed was just fantasy?" We had a 2 hour conversation and she tells me essentially that she doesn't want to sleep with other men, that she just enjoys the confidence boost, the free drinks and likes to dance. We discuss kissing, to which I say "kissing on the mouth is basically where cheating starts". That basically caused her to sink into her shell because she knew that was the nail on the head for me. She then disagrees and says it depends on how it's done. I ask her for examples and she says a peck on the cheek as a "thanks for the dance/drink" is wholly different than a full fledged makeout session. I tell her, "would you be uncomfortable with me kissing another woman?" And she circles back to "if it's a little peck, I wouldn't care but if it was open mouth with tongue, then yeah I would be upset".
> So basically after this long discussion, we establish that a guy buying her a drink, some dancing and flirting is "fine" but that kissing is where I see the start of being unfaithful. She says the attention she gets is what causes her to come home extra frisky and is why she always wants to jump my bones lately.
> I never fell asleep, and I still have knots in my stomach just recounting the whole ordeal but really I'm just worried that this is now the beginning of a difficult to manage situation. I feel like she "has permission" to go further than she's gone before with "kissing" being the line in the sand, but I know that if it ever gets to that point, human nature is bound to throw caution to the wind and just deal with the ramifications later, especially when the types of men that are solely going to bars go to basically get laid.
> I hope I can solicit some female responses as I feel her situation is relatable. Of course, all feedback is welcome.
> -Troubled in Texas


I will never understand men encouraging their wives to think about cheating. Are you a man enough to be enough for your wife? Why do you have to look for excitement in something so humiliating to imagine your wife with another man? Even talking about it is sowing seeds in her head that under certain circumstances, under the influence of alcohol and the encouragement of her friends, will take her to cross the border and then you will suddenly find yourself offended and hurt like many before you who did the same, and when their wife did what they fantasized about, they suddenly realized they had made the biggest mistake of their lives. That's so stupid. What kind of fun is it to go to bars and drink alcohol? Is there anything smarter, something more useful than going to such places? Alcohol has not brought anything good to anyone, and combined with bad company, it creates an ideal basis for evil of all kinds. Many regretted the decisions and behaviors they made under the influence of alcohol, but there was no going back. Find a smarter way to have fun, so you don’t regret it for the rest of your life. Many women would never dare to do something like that, but when their husbands encourage them, something happens in them and they think it is perfectly fine. Usually later the husbands are the ones who regret it and then the devil is to blame.


----------



## Robert22205

The assumption seems to be that the guys she dances with are random and she never sees them again. And therefore it's harmless twice a month fun. 

1 - However, have you asked her if she has accepted drinks and/or danced with the same guy on more than one GNO?

2 - Does her dance partner ever sit at the table next to her and chat? Do they ever hold her hand or put their arm around her going to or from the dance floor?

3 - Has she ever crossed paths with the men outside of the club (work, church, the mall)?

Depending on her answers, there may be more of a 'date' element than you are aware of. 

I suggest you both read and discuss "Not Just Friends" by Dr Shirley Glass. Experience shows that good people often mistakenly believe they are in control and can skate on thin ice (that's it's harmless fun) - until they fall in.

Discuss additional things she can do on GNO to avoid the risk of falling in. For example, avoid single woman type behavior that changes GNO into a 'date' by limiting the number and frequency of drinks bought on her behalf from one man; no sitting with him; and if she dances with him on more than one GNO she tells you his name and offers to stop.


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## oldshirt

BurntEnds said:


> Hello, yes we did talk last night in depth. And the kissing was the first matter to tend to, so I asked and probed and I genuinely believe that she did not kiss any man or men with her lips and theirs. I do believe that she plopped a big wet smacker on a cheek as a thank you of sorts. I've known my wife long enough that I know when she isnt being up front. She typically is always up front, and when she's not, she dances around what she doesn't want to say, , I tell her "just tell me" and she does. She's not a liar. I on the other hand will lie from time to time, little things but intentional lies regardless (why didn't you pick up so and so at the grocery store? Oh, I thought I did, the cashier must've not sacked it, when in reality I just forgot). When I asked her if she's kissed anyone, I assured her that we could "come back from it" but to just be honest about it because this is a serious matter and honesty is the only way to get through. She took a deep breath and said "no, I haven't kissed anyone on the lips" and I said "show me then how you have" and she demonstrated , what I can only refer to as a "big ol' smooch" on the cheek. So I'm not concerned with a kiss, and truth be told I'm not worried that she has slept around. I did have my concerns that she had some kind of subconscious messaging due to our explicit fantasy talk that it would have my blessing if she did and I told her, "I feel like our sex talk has been sending you subconscious messages that I WANT you to cheat on me" and she told me "I've never taken that you want me to go out and find another guy. Is that what you think I've been wanting to do?" And I told her that I just feel that she thinks she has subconscious permission to sleep with other men. She went on about how we have a great structure with our family life and how she needs us both to be upfront with what we are feeling because she can't do this (family life) without me. She suggested to cut out the sex talk entirely, like to not even bring that kind of stuff up. I'll be honest, what I give her sexually at home "does the job". I'm not trying to sound like a stud because I am far from it but I do pleasure her 3 or 4 times every time we have a go at it. And sometimes we make passionate love with no dirty talk and other times we have raunchy heavy raw intimacy. Our sex life did have a lull many years ago but I occasionally take pills to help and it really has been super ever since. If I thought her to cheat, I would have thought it to be back then. I guess the thing that turns off a lot of people here is my comfort level with her having a drink bought for her, having a guy flirt with her or dancing with her. I know that's a lot for some to be okay with, but I've always had enough trust in her that she wouldn't let it get that far. I still do, but now that I had established the clear boundary of "kissing is cheating", she knows my limits. I guess the "kinky talk" is what has be more okay with that than others would permit. But we also don't have a "you can't even TALK" to the opposite sex when I'm not around type of relationship. She doesn't willingly intend to "go find a guy to dance with, flirt with and get drunk with", but it is happening more that she has been working on herself. In my younger days, the shoe was on the other foot and girls would talk to me and she would get very jealous. I just said "I'll never talk to another woman again when your not around" and its pretty much been that way ever since. I guess this is where I am after the talk.....I believe she still loves me and wants to make the marriage work. I believe she has not cheated on me. I believe she wants to make an effort to take my sensitivities into account and not trample on them. But I don't know that after "1 drink too many", that escalation can be avoided. I'm not going to tell her she can't go out with her friends, and as you know, her friends are also mothers with kids and families so i don't think she is around bad influences. She is going to play music bingo this Friday with the gals so I guess I'll just let time take it's course and gauge my trust level by then. Is she messes up, I know her "I messed up" body language all too well. There's no hiding that, it's impossible for her to. She genuinely is the most honest one in the relationship. I did tell her, "don't drink past your limit, I don't want you losing your inhibitions and feeling sick the day after" and I just have to place my trust and pray that's the case.


It's good that you had this discussion outside of the bedroom sober and without horny hormones coursing through your veins. I'll give you a few points there. 

There is still work to be done here though. 

What we don't know about her kiss on the cheek is whether it was after a dance or two or whether it was after he got done fingering her to orgasm on the dance floor or done bending her over the counter in bathroom. 

Now I'm truly not trying to be jerk, I am hoping for the best for you and want this to work out OK. 

But as I said in my post immediately above, she is for all practical terms asking for an open marriage and your consent to have sexual interactions with other men even though you have not used the term open marriage. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. it's not a blue jay. 

You have told her you don't want her kissing other men on the lips. Have you told her you don't want her having PIV or oral or anal sex with other men or are you just assuming since you set a limit on kissing that that means that she won't allow any other touching or any other activities or contact????

That's is a sincere question because when there is alcohol in the system and horny hormones flowing and some tan young hunk with deep blue eyes and wavy blond hair is moving and shaking with her in rhythm on the dance floor and telling her how hot and sexy she is, is she really going to follow your algorithm and your idea of what is OK to the letter??

Human nature simply doesn't work that way. The heart wants what it wants. The vagina wants what it wants. 

What you want back home while she is out drinking and partying and living it up and having a grand ol' time with other men is a whole different story. 

The way you've written this, she can come home after screwing 5 guys and blowing 6 more and look you right in the eye and with all the seriousness and honesty in the world tell you that she did not kiss anyone. 

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this is real. This is what people actually do in situations such as this. I'm not making this up. 

It's ok to have an open marriage. It's ok to have consensual contact with other people. But you have to be aware of how nature and how sexuality works and you have to address the cold hard facts and the uncomfortable truths and have the difficult conversations. 

As I said in my first post on this thread, open marriages take a lot MORE WORK and more communication and stronger boundaries and more vigilance and effort than traditional marriages. 

It's good that you were willing to have this conversation and address this. But it's a first step and just scratching the surface. 

If you want to sustain a happy and healthy marriage long term while she is out clubbing with other men while you are home babysitting,, you are at extremely high risk. It can be done. But you are going to have to have very specific and very rock solid boundaries and you are going to have to be ready, willing and able to put the smackdown on anything even resembling approaching the line and you are going to need to have your affairs in order and be able to carry on in the event she comes home one night and starts packing her bags to move into the next guy's house.


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## ccpowerslave

BurntEnds said:


> I guess the thing that turns off a lot of people here is my comfort level with her having a drink bought for her, having a guy flirt with her or dancing with her.


Here’s why you should give pause. If I was single and I went to a bar and there is dancing and drinking and a woman lets me buy a drink for her and maybe flirts and bit and dances, well if she touches me then I’m definitely touching her and not just a kiss on the cheek I’m going to try and tap that!

So maybe she’s a nun right after the kiss and is like, “Oh my stars!!! I’m not sure what came over me. Sorry sir but I’m going to have to ask you to kindly leave me alone.”

Well for me I’d be like ok this ***** is crazy and then move on.

Not everyone would react that way though and possibly it could be putting her in danger. It’s not just a bit of a laugh depending on the type of place she’s at and how the clientele is.


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## oldshirt

oldshirt said:


> But you are going to have to have very specific and very rock solid boundaries and you are going to have to be ready, willing and able to put the smackdown on anything even resembling approaching the line and you are going to need to have your affairs in order and be able to carry on in the event she comes home one night and starts packing her bags to move into the next guy's house.


In all honesty, I would suggest you get a post-nup. 

I know that sounds kind of extreme, but I do think that given your dynamics here that you are at very high risk of her cheating or of falling for someone else or of her losing all attraction and desire for you and just simply packing up and leaving one of these days. 

Again, if you are going to play with fire, have the insurance policy up to date. 

I think in this case I think a post-nup stipulating if she cheats or if she falls for another guy and wants out of the marriage that she cannot completely take you to the cleaners. 

As a husband and father you are already at a legal disadvantage in a divorce. Depending on your state and your family financials etc, there is nothing stopping her from leaving you for some other guy and packing up the kids and having you "visit" them every other weekend while you pay child support and pay her alimony while she goes on Caribbean cruises with Steve From Accounting. 

A post nup with give you a little legal, financial and parental protection in a very high risk venture and it will give her a strong message that you are serious and that the stakes are high that she is on notice about her behavior. 

You are actually giving her a pretty big gift here and a lot of leeway and consideration as a married woman with young children. For you to be OK with watching kids while she goes out and parties and dances the night away with men charming her up and telling her how hot she is and coming home with you being ok with it is a pretty major bonus point for her. 

The least she could do is allow you to protect your home, your parental rights and your finances in the high risk event she goes over the line.


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## oldshirt

ccpowerslave said:


> Not everyone would react that way though and possibly it could be putting her in danger. It’s not just a bit of a laugh depending on the type of place she’s at and how the clientele is.


I was going to mention that as well. In fact I am surprised no one else has mentioned that angle. 

If she is going out looking for male attention and drinks and dancing and flirting it up yet truly drawing the line and cutting things off at kissing, Then she is intentionally being a teaser and attention wh0re. 

Most guys will just grunt in disappointment and move on to the next and chalk it up to chicks being goofy. 

But there are always going to be a few guys that won't take kindly to be lead on and pimped for drinks and getting their wood all hard only to be told no that her husband isn't ok with her screwing them. 

There can always be some that won't take no for an answer. Yes that is a criminal offense, but it is still a reality. 

I can't overstate this - this is a very high risk venture. It may seem like fun and games when you are making lively pillow talk while youre all full of horny hormones. But there are so many things that can go wrong with this. 

I'm all about living life to the fullest and not living in fear or holing yourself up in your bunker 24/7. But just being a responsible adult means facing facts, being aware of the risks and taking proper measures to address and mitigate those risks.


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## jsmart

Music bingo this Friday with the girls? When are you going out with the guys? Are you just going to stay home with the kids all the time while your wife acts like a single gal in her 20s? Don’t let the fact that her friends are married disarm you. They may be just as bad or their husbands may be partying separately. 

Also, I strongly doubt your wife is into nerdy types. Was the guy that she was betraying her live in boyfriend with a nerdy type? She may have married and had a kid with you but I’m not convinced that you’re her type. You owe it to yourself and your kid to find out. Next time she goes out, secretly line up child care and go to the venue about 2 hours after she leaves. When you get there try to observe her and the friends before approaching. If nothing is askance, then you can put on your sociable face and tell her you’ve been wanting to hangout with her and get in on the fun. But be mentally prepared for the possibility of finding her acting like some other dudes girl. 

Another option, is to have a friend who she doesn’t know be your spy. Paying for some guys cover, drinks, and transportation is a cheap route for privately investigating.


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## oldshirt

jsmart said:


> Another option, is to have a friend who she doesn’t know be your spy. Paying for some guys cover, drinks, and transportation is a cheap route for privately investigating.


I agree with this. 

If you are going to support and enable her doing this,,, at least find out what it is exactly that she is doing. 

I think all of us here can safely assure you she is not just hanging out at the table with the girls talking about work gossip and at some point a guy buys her a drink and they have one dance and then she goes back to her table and he goes back to his. 
You only know the very tip of the iceberg. 

Get someone she doesn't know whether it's an actual PI or some trusted friend or relative to follow her for the night. I am willing to bet a crisp, shiny new dollar bill that you will be in for a very big shock.


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## TXTrini

BurntEnds said:


> I agree, I would love a genuine female perspective. I would like to know their honest feelings when flirted with, bough a drink and invited for a dance versus their honest reactions to these 3 specific things.


Hi BurntEnds,
Female, non-cheating, formerly married woman here. Even when I was single in my clubbing days, I did not flirt/dance with or accept drinks/gifts from a man I was not interested in, period. Acceptance indicates interest and opens lines of communications for more. 

Once married, I made sure men knew I was married if they were too friendly. Frankly, I'm amazed you're cool with your wife spending GNO in a club drinking and dancing with other men. Even if no sex happens, do you like the idea of your wife making a guy cum in his pants on the dance floor?

Btw, I grew up in a very sexually free, yet conservative culture. I've done my share of grinding up on lots of strange dudes at the club, however, I'm not a drinker, so I had a good view of the stupid **** people do under the influence "for a laugh". People forget their commitments, bf/gf, kid at home, poof. 



Diana7 said:


> I am amazed at how they think and act. A married lady going out and flirting, drinking, dancing and kissing other men is crazy. I can't understand any husband who enables that to happen.


Exactly! This whole situation brings to mind the saying, "You can't make a ho into a housewife". Attention-ho, or regular ho. 


Burnt, your latest post sounds encouraging, but time to man up, bro. Find your balls man, and ask them to relocate GNO. It's just a matter of time before some **** goes down when you have a combination of waxed muffin and relaxed boundaries due to alcohol and sexually charged atmosphere.


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## DudeInProgress

BurntEnds said:


> My boundary is "flirt, dance and have a drink" but it stops there. Anything further than that (i.e. - groping breasts, getting grabby, kissing, etc. is off limits). I'm comfortable with these boundaries so long as they are met (which is totally dependent on the honor system), I just don't know how human nature can get it from escalating, especially when booze is involved.


That’s not a boundary, it’s just weakness and inability / unwillingness to assert yourself in this relationship.



BurntEnds said:


> I believe she has not cheated on me. I believe she wants to make an effort to take my sensitivities into account and not trample on them. But I don't know that after "1 drink too many", that escalation can be avoided.* I'm not going to tell her she can't go out with her friends...*


Why not?

Why wouldn’t you lead your marriage and refuse to tolerate inappropriate scenarios that have a high likelihood of putting your marriage at undue risk?

Why are you unwilling / unable to tell your wife,
“No, I will not accept my wife drinking and dancing and flirting with other men in a sexually charged environment.”
“No, I will not tolerate my wife soliciting male sexual attention from other men?”

Why is that hard for you?

No one is suggesting that your wife can’t have friends and go to dinner / brunch / lunch / bingo / girls night IN at one of there houses etc....
The very sound advice that many are giving you is that you should not be tolerating her going out to bars/clubs drinking / dancing / flirting / seeking sexual attention from other men, etc.

I’d be curious as to your honest assessment of the leadership dynamic in your marriage.


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## Evinrude58

oldshirt said:


> Yes it is a relevant point here because while it's true that there are some women that are not into clubbing and being hit on by other men, the OP's wife DOES.
> 
> She has came right out and stated that she wants the attention, wants to dance with other dudes and has stated upfront to him that she wants to lip-lock with other dudes which is just a lo-carb way of saying she wants to get down with other dudes.
> For all intents and purposes, she is saying she wants an open marriage. She wants to be able to have sexual interaction and contact with other men while he babysits at home.
> 
> Now it's OK for couples to have an open marriage and it's OK to have sex with other people as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult. I'm not judging that.
> 
> BUT, the OP needs to understand the risks and needs to understand just what it is that he is up against here and what he stands to lose if he continues to babysit while he sends her out to score with other men.
> 
> *And he needs to understand and accept human nature, male nature and female nature for what it actually is and not for what he hopes and wishes it to be that is convenient to him.*


that’s gold you should stick in your pocket OP.

your wife isn’t shaving all of a sudden because you like it. She’s shaving for other men. You got part of the truth before. All you got this last conversation is ass coverage, minimization, whatcha-wanna hear......, She’s just trying to calm you down so she can go out and get that waxed thing taken care of by a new guy.

Any man whose wife is going out clubbing and his wife tells him she wants to kiss other men, likes their attention, has started dressing differently and shaving their stuff after never or rarely having done it before...,,
The answer to your question is a huge YES.

But your weakness in the relationship and fear of loss is too great for you to tell her you’ve had enough of the dance clubs and late night adventures, and aren’t sharing her with anyone.

You can’t put a raging fire out with a feather. You’ve got yourself an inferno.
And, let me respectfully say that you thinking “you know your wife” and “know when she’s lying” and this and that......
Please understand that there are very few men AND women that were cheated on and lied to that said “hell, I knew all along they were about to cheat and lying to me about it”. There are scores of spouses that never had any clue they were being shaded or that their spouse was capable of such deceit. Your wife is not a special snowflakes that can’t lie to your face and make you believe it. She can, and she already is. What makes it so easy to lie to you is that you WANT to believe the lie with your entire being.

If I had to describe 95% of what you told us your wife said in that conversation, it would be “bovine manure”. She just made you feel better so you’d put your guard down.

I think you’re up a creek without a paddle at this point.


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## DudeInProgress

TXTrini said:


> Hi BurntEnds,
> Female, non-cheating, formerly married woman here. Even when I was single in my clubbing days, I did not flirt/dance with or accept drinks/gifts from a man I was not interested in, period. Acceptance indicates interest and opens lines of communications for more.
> 
> Once married, I made sure men knew I was married if they were too friendly. Frankly, I'm amazed you're cool with your wife spending GNO in a club drinking and dancing with other men. Even if no sex happens, do you like the idea of your wife making a guy cum in his pants on the dance floor?
> 
> Btw, I grew up in a very sexually free, yet conservative culture. I've done my share of grinding up on lots of strange dudes at the club, however, I'm not a drinker, so I had a good view of the stupid **** people do under the influence "for a laugh". People forget their commitments, bf/gf, kid at home, poof.
> 
> 
> Exactly! This whole situation brings to mind the saying, "You can't make a ho into a housewife". Attention-ho, or regular ho.
> 
> 
> Burnt, your latest post sounds encouraging, but time to man up, bro. Find your balls man, and ask them to relocate GNO. It's just a matter of time before some **** goes down when you have a combination of waxed muffin and relaxed boundaries due to alcohol and sexually charged atmosphere.


This, again.

0P, you wanted female perspective, here it is. Free of any “toxic masculinity“ so maybe you’ll listen to the girl, telling you the same things everyone else is...


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## Cici1990

TXTrini said:


> Hi BurntEnds,
> Female, non-cheating, formerly married woman here. Even when I was single in my clubbing days, I did not flirt/dance with or accept drinks/gifts from a man I was not interested in, period. Acceptance indicates interest and opens lines of communications for more.
> 
> Once married, I made sure men knew I was married if they were too friendly. Frankly, I'm amazed you're cool with your wife spending GNO in a club drinking and dancing with other men. Even if no sex happens, do you like the idea of your wife making a guy cum in his pants on the dance floor?
> 
> Btw, I grew up in a very sexually free, yet conservative culture. I've done my share of grinding up on lots of strange dudes at the club, however, I'm not a drinker, so I had a good view of the stupid **** people do under the influence "for a laugh". People forget their commitments, bf/gf, kid at home, poof.
> 
> 
> Exactly! This whole situation brings to mind the saying, "You can't make a ho into a housewife". Attention-ho, or regular ho.
> 
> 
> Burnt, your latest post sounds encouraging, but time to man up, bro. Find your balls man, and ask them to relocate GNO. It's just a matter of time before some **** goes down when you have a combination of waxed muffin and relaxed boundaries due to alcohol and sexually charged atmosphere.


I get everything you’re saying except…what grown men are confident enough to be grinding up against a woman they just met in a club yet pathetic enough that they’re going to be cumming in their pants over it? I hope that part was exaggerated for effect. Are men who aren’t being intentional creeps out there cumming in their pants on the dance floors of America? She’s not dancing with virginal 15 year old boys. It sounds like it could be a fun game though. How many men can a married woman make cum in their pants in a single night. They could be crazy though so better take a weapon for protection.


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## HappilyMarried1

Thanks for sharing your important talk with your wife last night @BurntEnds I think you did the right thing and made a good start. I hope you read the post above from @Robert22205 he made some very good points and raised some excellent questions that need to be verified I think as well.

One question I have after rereading your OP and the post of your talk last night. In your OP you said that she told you she really wanted to kiss other men. Did you ask her why she said that and also like one of the posters ask when she told/showed you she had kissed a guy on the check just curious did you follow up and ask her if it was only one kiss with the one guy or had she kissed other guys the same way. Also did you ask her what the guy did after she kissed him? To me that would be something I would want to know myself. Lastly, did you suggest about you two going out to a club/brew house together just the two of you.


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## Gabriel

BurntEnds,

While you might think you are out of the woods here, you are not. Women don't like weak men. My hope is that your questions were pointed and not coming from a place of insecurity.

My guess is that she's going to talk to her friends about your conversation, and roll her eyes. Her friends might, too. 

Going forward, I wouldn't ask questions. You should inform your wife of what you are comfortable having in your marriage and what you cannot accept. Then you outline what the consequences are if the boundaries are not respected. This is a position of strength, and your wife knows you mean business.

I may be wrong, but I get the feel here that you were in a position of complaining or insecure probing. Don't do that.


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## Evinrude58

Toxic masculinity is feminist code for a man that has options not putting up with ******** that he doesn’t have to put up with.

what the OP needs is a large IV attached to a bigass bag of 180 proof toxic masculinity and say no more clubbing or carry your cheating tail elsewhere after signing papers.


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## manwithnoname

Evinrude58 said:


> Toxic masculinity is feminist code for a man that has options not putting up with ****** that he doesn’t have to put up with.
> 
> what the OP needs is a large IV attached to a bigass bag of 180 proof toxic masculinity and say no more clubbing or carry your cheating tail elsewhere after signing papers.


Is it toxic masculinity, or intoxicating masculinity? The neo feminists have gotten to the point where they want a man that has no balls (equal to them) but what they really crave is a masculine man, just not as a life partner. 

This is true.


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## ccpowerslave

Cici1990 said:


> Are men who aren’t being intentional creeps out there cumming in their pants on the dance floors of America?


I think most gentlemen would take it to the bathroom stall.


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## Cici1990

ccpowerslave said:


> I think most gentlemen would take it to the bathroom stall.


But still…that turned on by dancing with a woman that they have to excuse themselves to the bathroom to rub one out? I’m going to ask some of my clubbing friends about this one. I mean my husband has had boners in public and never had to excuse himself to rub one out. He can at least wait until he gets home.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Cici1990 said:


> But still…that turned on by dancing with a woman that they have to excuse themselves to the bathroom to rub one out? I’m going to ask some of my clubbing friends about this one. I mean my husband has had boners in public and never had to excuse himself to rub one out. He can at least wait until he gets home.


No I meant take the nice young lady back to the bathroom stall.


----------



## HappilyMarried1

ccpowerslave said:


> No I meant take the nice young lady back to the bathroom stall.


Or in the dark corner of the club, or in his car. The OP @BurntEnds sounds like a good guy and his spouse seems like a good lady as well I hope she isn't trying to keep up with her young 20 something girlfriend or mid-life crises and things go to far one night and she crosses that line without really meaning to. I just think letting it continue is asking for trouble, but its his marriage and many have given some great advice. I just hope for the best.

To be honest I should have said it in my reply to his post but really with what he told her about how he felt about some of the stuff she had progress to I would have hoped that his wife would have said after hearing how her GNO and what she had started doing was bothering him that she would have said listen I see the effect my actions are having on you I will no longer go to clubs with my friends and won't flirt with guys or allow them to buy me drinks out of my love for you and respect for our marriage and family.


----------



## Cici1990

ccpowerslave said:


> No I meant take the nice young lady back to the bathroom stall.


Oh well that makes more sense.

I don’t really know anyone that goes out and dances at clubs anymore. Like, nobody I know my age that I associate with is into that. Bars yes, but bars where dancing takes place or dance clubs, no.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Cici1990 said:


> Oh well that makes more sense.
> 
> I don’t really know anyone that goes out and dances at clubs anymore. Like, nobody I know my age that I associate with is into that. Bars yes, but bars where dancing takes place or dance clubs, no.


I do. A mixture of 20s coworkers on up to 40s.

There are also groups of folks I know from the gym who go out dancing at country bars. Still a thing!


----------



## BurntEnds

HappilyMarried1 said:


> Thanks for sharing your important talk with your wife last night @BurntEnds I think you did the right thing and made a good start. I hope you read the post above from @Robert22205 he made some very good points and raised some excellent questions that need to be verified I think as well.
> 
> One question I have after rereading your OP and the post of your talk last night. In your OP you said that she told you she really wanted to kiss other men. Did you ask her why she said that and also like one of the posters ask when she told/showed you she had kissed a guy on the check just curious did you follow up and ask her if it was only one kiss with the one guy or had she kissed other guys the same way. Also did you ask her what the guy did after she kissed him? To me that would be something I would want to know myself. Lastly, did you suggest about you two going out to a club/brew house together just the two of you.


I mean, the feedback I'm getting from the vast majority of the posts here seem to say "run for the hill, it's done for" but from our conversation, she made it to be like she wants to make changes to keep the marriage intact. She made the "let's eliminate the kinky talk", suggestion, she said she feels much better about the direction of our marriage now that I "cleared the air". She suggested I do things for myself. I was originally going to see new new 007 movie on Saturday by myself at the movie/brewhouse. She said "let's get a sitter and go together." She said, "why haven't we had conversations like these before?" I may be a fool but I wholeheartedly believe she respects what I am not willing to tolerate. My only concern is when too much alcohol happens, those boundaries are out the window. I got what I needed from the kiss talk.....lip to lip kissing to me means it may as well be over. Look, in my younger days, I would frequent bars while married to see live touring bands. I kept her awake aplenty while she wondered what kind of shenanigans I might get myself into. But I don't drink much at all, and I was never there to pursue other women. I was legitimately there to watch live music. Would girls occasionally look in my direction? Sure, but I never approached them. Would I talk to them on occasion when approached? Sure, sometimes a woman would just converse with me and I would talk for a little and that was that. Was "sex racing through my head"? Yeah, absolutely. I'm a red blooded male. But I respected her enough to know right from wrong. The issue here is too much alcohol. I'm comfortable with the boundaries regarding free drinks, dancing and flirting because if the shoe was on the other foot, I would want her to understand that I'm not totally going to shun myself from interaction. So long as it stays in my pants and as long as she keeps it in hers, I would want her to be okay with some playful flirting or a random dance with a random stranger too on my end because unfaithfulness isn't what is driving the behavior, "having a good time and feeling good about myself" is the driver. I do believe she is not all on on adultery but our years of sex talk was in retrospect a horrible idea because I'm sure when the looks started going her way, she was likely testing the waters to see where my stance is. I don't think I'm out of the woods, not by a longshot. 2 conversations is one thing, being drunk and trying to make sound decisions is another. HappilyMarried1, I respect your input, it is the most valuable to me in these comments. Please let me know what you think of this.


----------



## ccpowerslave

BurntEnds said:


> The issue here is too much alcohol. I'm comfortable with the boundaries regarding free drinks, dancing and flirting because if the shoe was on the other foot, I would want her to understand that I'm not totally going to shun myself from interaction.


Free drinks + dancing + flirting = letting a small child play with matches next to the curtains.

If you’re ok with it then you’re a real risk taker!


----------



## Evinrude58

HappilyMarried1 said:


> Or in the dark corner of the club, or in his car. The OP @BurntEnds sounds like a good guy and his spouse seems like a good lady as well I hope she isn't trying to keep up with her young 20 something girlfriend or mid-life crises and things go to far one night and she crosses that line without really meaning to. I just think letting it continue is asking for trouble, but its his marriage and many have given some great advice. I just hope for the best.
> 
> To be honest I should have said it in my reply to his post but really with what he told her about how he felt about some of the stuff she had progress to I would have hoped that his wife would have said after hearing how her GNO and what she had started doing was bothering him that she would have said listen I see the effect my actions are having on you I will no longer go to clubs with my friends and won't flirt with guys or allow them to buy me drinks out of my love for you and respect for our marriage and family.


Yeah, I caught that she made no mention that we know of, of stopping anything either.


----------



## DudeInProgress

ccpowerslave said:


> Free drinks + dancing + flirting = letting a small child play with matches next to the curtains.
> 
> If you’re ok with it then you’re a real risk taker!


Unfortunately for some reason, he seems unwilling to understand this or DO anything about it.


----------



## HappilyMarried1

Thanks for the kind words @BurntEnds i truly hope it helps the new info you provided is even better. I would still advise to read the post by Robert he raises some good questions that need to be discussed. I still think you are having an undo stress on your marriage. My point meaning if on these GNO she is flirting and dancing with different guys (which I hope is the case and not the same one) she had told you how she gets all worked up and come home and jump your bones. If you and her allow this to continue eventually there could be a perfect storm meaning a good looking alpha type guy a little too much to drink and he is a pro and says and does all the right thing and he takes a kiss on the check and returns with a kiss on the lips and one thing leads to another and something happens. When it does I truly believe she will feel awful afterwards very guilty and will call you crying or come home crying telling you how sorry she is that it just happened, she felt as though she wasn’t in her body etc truth is that is true but it won’t change what it will do to your marriage.

One last thing I think you need to talk about let her know you are fine with her going out with her girlfriends and having a good time but the dancing and flirting and especially the drink buying is very dangerous I don’t think you all realize how easy a guy could put a date rape drug in that bought drink and what could happen from that. Here is a suggestion if you guys still are both into this flirting and dancing thing do it together go out with each other or even go out together and go in separately and then have a little innocent fun (I don’t think this is good) myself) but for some this works and nothing dangerous or bad could happen. I hope this helps you need to continue to open up and talk but you really need to let her know the dangers of where this could lead. If this continues a man is going to expect more than a dance or a peck on the cheek. Best of luck! Keeps us updated.


----------



## oldshirt

Cici1990 said:


> But still…that turned on by dancing with a woman that they have to excuse themselves to the bathroom to rub one out? I’m going to ask some of my clubbing friends about this one. I mean my husband has had boners in public and never had to excuse himself to rub one out. He can at least wait until he gets home.


I am sure that whoever made the cumming in their pants comment was using that as a figure if speech and not to be taken literally.


----------



## oldshirt

BurntEnds said:


> I mean, the feedback I'm getting from the vast majority of the posts here seem to say "run for the hill, it's done for" but from our conversation, she made it to be like she wants to make changes to keep the marriage intact. She made the "let's eliminate the kinky talk", suggestion, she said she feels much better about the direction of our marriage now that I "cleared the air". She suggested I do things for myself. I was originally going to see new new 007 movie on Saturday by myself at the movie/brewhouse. She said "let's get a sitter and go together." She said, "why haven't we had conversations like these before?" I may be a fool but I wholeheartedly believe she respects what I am not willing to tolerate. My only concern is when too much alcohol happens, those boundaries are out the window. I got what I needed from the kiss talk.....lip to lip kissing to me means it may as well be over. Look, in my younger days, I would frequent bars while married to see live touring bands. I kept her awake aplenty while she wondered what kind of shenanigans I might get myself into. But I don't drink much at all, and I was never there to pursue other women. I was legitimately there to watch live music. Would girls occasionally look in my direction? Sure, but I never approached them. Would I talk to them on occasion when approached? Sure, sometimes a woman would just converse with me and I would talk for a little and that was that. Was "sex racing through my head"? Yeah, absolutely. I'm a red blooded male. But I respected her enough to know right from wrong. The issue here is too much alcohol. I'm comfortable with the boundaries regarding free drinks, dancing and flirting because if the shoe was on the other foot, I would want her to understand that I'm not totally going to shun myself from interaction. So long as it stays in my pants and as long as she keeps it in hers, I would want her to be okay with some playful flirting or a random dance with a random stranger too on my end because unfaithfulness isn't what is driving the behavior, "having a good time and feeling good about myself" is the driver. I do believe she is not all on on adultery but our years of sex talk was in retrospect a horrible idea because I'm sure when the looks started going her way, she was likely testing the waters to see where my stance is. I don't think I'm out of the woods, not by a longshot. 2 conversations is one thing, being drunk and trying to make sound decisions is another. HappilyMarried1, I respect your input, it is the most valuable to me in these comments. Please let me know what you think of this.


A couple things to note here - 

Unlike a number of the other posters here, I don’t have an issue with your kinky fantasy talk in the privacy of your own bedroom and believe that under the right circumstances and with solid, Chrystal clear boundaries in real life, fantasy talk can be a positive and beneficial thing. 

I don’t think you need to end the sex talk at all. If you both enjoy it and you both understand and comply with the rules of conduct in real life, then there’s no real need to end that. 

However another point that needs to made is your experiences at the club is in absolutely no way shape or form an apples to apples comparison to her experience at at a club. 

I’m assuming you are a normal, average Joe and all round decent guy. 

You could go to the clubs 6 nights a week and approach every single woman there with full intent of trying to get in their knickers and you might get lucky and be able to score some fat, drunk chick that just broke up with her boyfriend every now and then. 

In other words you would only be able to score randomly and infrequently no matter how hard you tried and much of that would just be random dumb luck. 

I’m no knocking you or putting you down and I would not be able to do any better, that’s just the reality for the vast majority of men that aren’t pro athletes, rock stars, celebrities or male models. 

Contrast that with your wife who could literally walk in and invite any man to join her in the stall of the ladies with any man at any time.

Now ok she likely would not do that. But the moment she walks in, other men are going to be scoping her out and sizing her up and approaching her and taking their shot. 

It’s just simply a different reality for men vs women in a club environment. 

All it would take would be for her to have gotten a little miffed at you or feeling a little neglected by you for whatever reason on a day she happened to be ovulating and maybe had one too many drinks and some tall, handsome guy with good game approaches her and flirts her up well and all the stars line up in a perfect storm. 

Is this where you want to be when Jesus comes back?? 

Is this really an appropriate environment and appropriate activity for a married woman to be in regularly. 

You talk about trust and communication and that you know her etc etc but how much are you willing to bet on a whole bunch of variables and factors that you simply cannot control and that cannot be overcome with trust and communication. 

She may be a nice person that helps orphaned kittens and is good with children, but she is still a flesh and blood female who’s DNA and genetic coding is only a couple of percentage points away from a baboon in heat on the plains of Africa. 

And then men in the club are probably closer yet to their primordial ancestors. 

We all try to behave like civilized beings when we’re being watched in public. But we are all still flesh and blood animals at our core.


----------



## oldshirt

DudeInProgress said:


> Unfortunately for some reason, he seems unwilling to understand this or DO anything about it.


I am getting the impression that this goes beyond naivette or lack of understanding. 

And I think it goes beyond not wanting to do anything about it. 

I get the feeling he thinks it is somehow ‘below’ him to be concerned with her activities and that he is somehow superior to the common man to worry about such primal concerns. 

Even if actual arrogance is not a factor, there are people that see themselves as more enlightened and more woke than to be concerned with such indignities as sexual attractions for other people or the nasty scandals of the loins. 

There are people that feel they are the superior man or the superior woman as such that they can allow their spouse to live as a single person on the market but that they won’t be negatively effected. 

I’m getting the feeling the OP thinks he is being the better man by giving her this opportunity to get her jollies with other men and that he is above any kind of petty jealousies or insecurities. 

Some of these guys also think their wives are too pure and too virtuous than to have any karnal desires of the flesh. 

I’ve known some guys like this. They have all gotten humbled at some point when they realize they are not more enlightened and that their wives are not above karnal desires of the flesh.


----------



## Cici1990

oldshirt said:


> I am getting the impression that this goes beyond naivette or lack of understanding.
> 
> And I think it goes beyond not wanting to do anything about it.
> 
> I get the feeling he thinks it is somehow ‘below’ him to be concerned with her activities and that he is somehow superior to the common man to worry about such primal concerns.
> 
> Even if actual arrogance is not a factor, there are people that see themselves as more enlightened and more woke than to be concerned with such indignities as sexual attractions for other people or the nasty scandals of the loins.
> 
> There are people that feel they are the superior man or the superior woman as such that they can allow their spouse to live as a single person on the market but that they won’t be negatively effected.
> 
> I’m getting the feeling the OP thinks he is being the better man by giving her this opportunity to get her jollies with other men and that he is above any kind of petty jealousies or insecurities.
> 
> Some of these guys also think their wives are too pure and too virtuous than to have any karnal desires of the flesh.
> 
> I’ve known some guys like this. They have all gotten humbled at some point when they realize they are not more enlightened and that their wives are not above karnal desires of the flesh.


Uh huh. You’ve described my husband here.


----------



## oldshirt

Cici1990 said:


> Uh huh. You’ve described my husband here.


how so? Do explain. 

It may be relevant if you are seeing similarities between the OP and your H.


----------



## SunCMars

Cici1990 said:


> *But still*…that turned on by dancing with a woman that they have to excuse themselves to the bathroom to rub one out? I’m going to ask some of my clubbing friends about this one. I mean my husband has had boners in public and never had to excuse himself to rub one out. He can at least wait until he gets home.


*Be still.*
Be not shallow water.

You imagine the worst in men, yay, that men are dogs as this.
Thou hast this hate of men.

Men can be the lowest of creatures, though none are this, as you describe. 
I scribe no, not true.

No _man _does this, as it placates no need.
A sixteen year old_ boy,_ a teenager might run and hide, and rub one out..
Aye.

Boners do appear with closeness, with rubbing.
Slow, close dancing can be that stimulus.
As it should be.

Everything being in the right position.



_The Typist-_


----------



## manwithnoname

BurntEnds said:


> I mean, the feedback I'm getting from the vast majority of the posts here seem to say "run for the hill, it's done for" but from our conversation, she made it to be like she wants to make changes to keep the marriage intact. She made the "let's eliminate the kinky talk", suggestion, she said she feels much better about the direction of our marriage now that I "cleared the air". *She suggested I do things for myself*. I was originally going to see new new 007 movie on Saturday by myself at the movie/brewhouse. *She said "let's get a sitter and go together*." She said, "why haven't we had conversations like these before?" I may be a fool but I wholeheartedly believe she respects what I am not willing to


You wanted to go by yourself? Go by yourself.

Does she still get to grind on strange wood/hump the stump on the dance floor and make out with the guys she's still so obviously allowed to flirt with? Or was this important issue not addressed?


----------



## Talker67

BurntEnds said:


> "I feel like our sex talk has been sending you subconscious messages that I WANT you to cheat on me" and she told me *"I've never taken that you want me to go out and find another guy. Is that what you think I've been wanting to do?"* And I told her that I just feel that she thinks she has subconscious permission to sleep with other men. She went on about how we have a great structure with our family life and how she needs us both to be upfront with what we are feeling because she can't do this (family life) without me. She suggested to cut out the sex talk entirely, like to not even bring that kind of stuff up.


well, sounds to me like you lucked out!
If she had all sorts of sexual fantasies about becoming a hotwife, she would have told you about them now. You are a lucky guy

Her idea of stopping the hotwife sex talk is also a good one. You, it turns out, are def not into that happening, and it only taunts her.


----------



## Talker67

Gabriel said:


> BurntEnds,
> 
> While you might think you are out of the woods here, you are not. Women don't like weak men.


i do not think it is that bad.
i WOULD suggest you take some modern dance lessons, and start taking her out dancing! Step up to that....it is not that hard to learn! find a local bar that has dancing, and set up a date night each week to taker her there.

If she starts having fun with you while going out, all interest in "kissing other men" will quickly drop away....if she can get it at home, why go looking for trouble elsewhere


----------



## BurntEnds

HappilyMarried1 said:


> Thanks for the kind words @BurntEnds i truly hope it helps the new info you provided is even better. I would still advise to read the post by Robert he raises some good questions that need to be discussed. I still think you are having an undo stress on your marriage. My point meaning if on these GNO she is flirting and dancing with different guys (which I hope is the case and not the same one) she had told you how she gets all worked up and come home and jump your bones. If you and her allow this to continue eventually there could be a perfect storm meaning a good looking alpha type guy a little too much to drink and he is a pro and says and does all the right thing and he takes a kiss on the check and returns with a kiss on the lips and one thing leads to another and something happens. When it does I truly believe she will feel awful afterwards very guilty and will call you crying or come home crying telling you how sorry she is that it just happened, she felt as though she wasn’t in her body etc truth is that is true but it won’t change what it will do to your marriage.
> 
> One last thing I think you need to talk about let her know you are fine with her going out with her girlfriends and having a good time but the dancing and flirting and especially the drink buying is very dangerous I don’t think you all realize how easy a guy could put a date rape drug in that bought drink and what could happen from that. Here is a suggestion if you guys still are both into this flirting and dancing thing do it together go out with each other or even go out together and go in separately and then have a little innocent fun (I don’t think this is good) myself) but for some this works and nothing dangerous or bad could happen. I hope this helps you need to continue to open up and talk but you really need to let her know the dangers of where this could lead. If this continues a man is going to expect more than a dance or a peck on the cheek. Best of luck! Keeps us updated.


I will keep updating as events occur. I get the feeling that my wife is at a crossroads in her life. The older the kids get, she gets really sad that they're not babies anymore and misses the motherhood aspect of raising little ones. She's wanted a third child and wrestles with that versus advancing her career in education. I think a lot of this plays into our current dynamic. I read the post you recommended and I really do not have worries about "a consistent man that she is becoming emotionally invested with". She doesn't exhibit warning signs of an emotional attachment with another man and she isn't trying to get knocked up by another man just because she wrestles with having a third child. She always praises my fatherhood, tells me that I'm such a good dad to our kids and says I'm the reason she thinks a 3rd kid is a good idea. Our level of emotional investment hasn't changed,she hasn't tuned out at all so I really don't think she is falling in love with another man. I legitimately feel that is not the case here. Our fantasy talk or real talk has always been centered on strangers, "random hotties" that we encounter that turn us on. It's no secret that a long marriage involves both partners occasionally thinking of these "random hotties" during intimacy. It's no secret either that we see attractive people and get turned on by them too. We both acknowledge this. We've both acknowledged that we think of other people during sex. Like once time I saw a scantily clad woman at a store with no bra, a skimpy tank top and short shorts showing off her rear end and she absolutely got my engine going. During sex, I told her about her and she told me to imagine her while we were going at it. Other times I start with the dirty talk and her response is "no, I just want you" which is when she just wants to make love. But I'm rambling.....the point is, for the two of us, the random stranger that we find desirable or that they find us desirable is the actual "kink", this is the turn on that would make two average looking individuals with no significant traits considered to be "peak beauty" feel sexually charged. I hate to think I am alone in both of us being turned on by this but the onslaught of commenters seem to indicate that perhaps I am. Like every normal couple out there has the "I only think about you baby" attitude except maybe OldShirt. Part of being honest with the two of us is acknowledging what we are thinking. But in either case, I think my head is in a better place than 2 days ago. The commenters seem to think that I am some political lefty (terms have been used in comments like "woke" or neo-feminist), which is frankly quite insulting. I'm a super moderate guy and I don't fall into all this team red/team blue silliness. I am just a guy who likes his wife to feel desired and gets turned on when she feels desires, especially because she has had self esteem issues for the majority of her life. Commenters have talked about her waxing her hoo-ha like if that is some sort of dead giveaway of infidelity. I disagree. She has always been "very hairy" down there. She doesn't like to shave because she would often get painful ingrown hairs. But we go to the beach and she doesn't like a huge muff bulging through her swimsuit. So in July prior to a beach trip, she decided to do a full Brazilian so that the hair wouldn't show through her white full body swimsuit. I didn't object and actually found it quite arousing as I could see the whole thing. And when I play down there, she says she can feel every part of her organ getting treated since it's so clean. This is when she says she started feeling more "womanly" and I guess started getting a big head about her sexuality. People also comment that shes losing weight for someone else or to find a new partner. Again, I disagree. She has always struggled with her weight. At one point she was 240 lbs. Her ideal weight is 175. She is down to 180. So this has been the cycle off and on since I've known her. Weight loss isn't something she just started doing, she's been trying to manage it for most of her life. But what I am saying is that these are all contributing factors that have led us where we are at. Shes looking good and feeling good about herself. More eyes are going in her direction. Shes at a crossroads in life with motherhood. She's had unhealthy subconscious reinforcement from me that I might be open for an open marriage. Couple all this with being out on the town with her gal pals with booze in the mix can certainly lead to disaster. I think that's why our boundary conversation was crucial, and she knows my honest feelings about our dirty talk and how we have to cut it off. I agree that we are probably still playing with fire, and by no means do I feel like I am out of the woods, but i do feel that at least in a sober state, we are on the same page. I feel like I at least have a water hose handy instead of being empty handed.


----------



## Evinrude58

Don’t mean to harp on you bro, but have you had any word from her on stopping the dancing with other men, drinking with them, kissing them, or going out acting single in general? Your last post does SEEM as if you’re not over a cliff YET, but if you’re still gonna go for her doing what she’s doing, it’s just a matter of time before so e other man is going to come along. No husband can compete with the thrill of a new handsome, interesting guy, telling them how great they are and boosting their ego. 
What changes are being made? If none, you’d better get ready for a poo sandwich coming your way.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

oldshirt said:


> I was going to mention that as well. In fact I am surprised no one else has mentioned that angle.
> 
> If she is going out looking for male attention and drinks and dancing and flirting it up yet truly drawing the line and cutting things off at kissing, Then she is intentionally being a teaser and attention wh0re.
> 
> Most guys will just grunt in disappointment and move on to the next and chalk it up to chicks being goofy.
> 
> But there are always going to be a few guys that won't take kindly to be lead on and pimped for drinks and getting their wood all hard only to be told no that her husband isn't ok with her screwing them.
> 
> There can always be some that won't take no for an answer. Yes that is a criminal offense, but it is still a reality.
> 
> I can't overstate this - this is a very high risk venture. It may seem like fun and games when you are making lively pillow talk while youre all full of horny hormones. But there are so many things that can go wrong with this.
> 
> I'm all about living life to the fullest and not living in fear or holing yourself up in your bunker 24/7. But just being a responsible adult means facing facts, being aware of the risks and taking proper measures to address and mitigate those risks.


I wonder if she is wearing a wedding ring when she is doing this flirting, dancing and getting drinks from guys.

@BurntEnds Does your wife wear her wedding band?


----------



## HappilyMarried1

BurntEnds said:


> Shes at a crossroads in life with motherhood. She's had unhealthy subconscious reinforcement from me that I might be open for an open marriage. Couple all this with being out on the town with her gal pals with booze in the mix can certainly lead to disaster. I think that's why our boundary conversation was crucial, and she knows my honest feelings about our dirty talk and how we have to cut it off. I agree that we are probably still playing with fire, and by no means do I feel like I am out of the woods, but i do feel that at least in a sober state, we are on the same page. I feel like I at least have a water hose handy instead of being empty handed.


Thanks for sharing @BurntEnds as I have said you of course no your spouse better than any of us on here. With the above part of your post given with also further up in the post about hot people you guys see and think about. My only point about this whole situation with you and your wife about these GNO and what you told us about how she feels while out on them and what she told you about her interactions with other men already. The point is if these GNO continue as they have been there will be a guy that will want and try more than she has had happen so far and with alcohol involved and her inexperience in such situations and her self-esteem issues and a hot guy comes onto her and I'm afraid if this continues it will eventually happen when she least expects it. I just think you guys seem to be good people with a good marriage and I just would hate to see something happen in this type of situation that can easily be avoided happen. Trust me I hope it never happens, but situations like this happen more often than not. It's like a person trying to avoid sweets and going to a chocolate factory every couple of weeks. Best of luck!


----------



## BurntEnds

BigDaddyNY said:


> I wonder if she is wearing a wedding ring when she is doing this flirting, dancing and getting drinks from guys.
> 
> @BurntEnds Does your wife wear her wedding band?


Yeah she wears her band. Well, she has two that she normally wears together but she takes off the "expensive" one when she goes out to places that might be at risk of theft


----------



## BigDaddyNY

BurntEnds said:


> Yeah she wears her band. Well, she has two that she normally wears together but she takes off the "expensive" one when she goes out to places that might be at risk of theft


That's good news. As I said before, I'm not comfortable with the flirting or the dirty talk you guys engage in, but that is me. I think you have taken steps in the right direction with talking to her about boundaries and everything you've said here sounds like she is dedicated to you. I hope everything goes well for you and your wife.


----------



## oldshirt

BigDaddyNY said:


> I wonder if she is wearing a wedding ring when she is doing this flirting, dancing and getting drinks from guys.
> 
> @BurntEnds Does your wife wear her wedding band?


Wedding rings aren’t going to stop dudes at the club.

Some guys will even specifically target married women because they are often easier to pick up for NSA hook ups and already have someone at home taking care of the kids and paying bills and killing spiders etc.


----------



## oldshirt

BurntEnds said:


> Yeah she wears her band. Well, she has two that she normally wears together but she takes off the "expensive" one when she goes out to places that might be at risk of theft


Wearing rings at a club doesn’t mean anything. Guys aren’t there buying drinks and dirty dancing looking for a wife.

They are looking for quick and easy hook ups with minimum investment and NOT having to marry someone and take up homemaking and child rearing and changing their flat tires in the rain.

A number of guys even specifically prefer married women because they are easier to schmooze and they already have a chump at home taking care of kids and paying bills and such.


----------



## TXTrini

Cici1990 said:


> I get everything you’re saying except…what grown men are confident enough to be grinding up against a woman they just met in a club yet pathetic enough that they’re going to be cumming in their pants over it? I hope that part was exaggerated for effect. Are men who aren’t being intentional creeps out there cumming in their pants on the dance floors of America? She’s not dancing with virginal 15 year old boys. It sounds like it could be a fun game though. How many men can a married woman make cum in their pants in a single night. They could be crazy though so better take a weapon for protection.


Men are more aggressive, unabashedly sexual where I lived, so yes, I encountered grown men confident enough to rub their bulges quite proudly if you let them. And no, they don't ask permission before doing so, you have to actively avoid it and disengage.

I've never been to an American club, my husband wasn't into dancing, and I wasn't interested in dancing with other men. Maybe American clubs are prudish in comparison, b/c I'm quite amused when people get butthurt about twerking, it's pretty tame and decent compared to some of the dance moves from 20 years ago.

Anyway, I also wanted to OP to understand what his wife was playing at, it's no joke. Some men won't take no for an answer if you rattle the cage hard enough. 



Cici1990 said:


> But still…that turned on by dancing with a woman that they have to excuse themselves to the bathroom to rub one out? I’m going to ask some of my clubbing friends about this one. I mean my husband has had boners in public and never had to excuse himself to rub one out. He can at least wait until he gets home.


Good for your husband, he sounds like a gentleman. Maybe you haven't met more dangerous kind of men, but they're out there and drunk women are their target for a reason. 



oldshirt said:


> I am sure that whoever made the cumming in their pants comment was using that as a figure if speech and not to be taken literally.


It was a shock tactic meant to paint a picture, but I've seen these things go down in clubs in full view of everyone.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

oldshirt said:


> Wedding rings aren’t going to stop dudes at the club.
> 
> Some guys will even specifically target married women because they are often easier to pick up for NSA hook ups and already have someone at home taking care of the kids and paying bills and killing spiders etc.


I was asking more for an idea of his wife's mindset. Obviously she could be taking it off as soon as she walks out the door. I was just curious if she "advertises" that she is married.


----------



## BurntEnds

BigDaddyNY said:


> I was asking more for an idea of his wife's mindset. Obviously she could be taking it off as soon as she walks out the door. I was just curious if she "advertises" that she is married.


Right, I agree. During our first talk, she even made mention that "I have my ring on so they know I'm taken" to which I scoffed and replied "right, like that is going to stop some horny bastard from going in for the kill". But her mindset was the key here, that she's not putting forth the effort to make men think she is single.


----------



## oldshirt

BurntEnds said:


> I will keep updating as events occur. I get the feeling that my wife is at a crossroads in her life. The older the kids get, she gets really sad that they're not babies anymore and misses the motherhood aspect of raising little ones. She's wanted a third child and wrestles with that versus advancing her career in education. I think a lot of this plays into our current dynamic. I read the post you recommended and I really do not have worries about "a consistent man that she is becoming emotionally invested with". She doesn't exhibit warning signs of an emotional attachment with another man and she isn't trying to get knocked up by another man just because she wrestles with having a third child. She always praises my fatherhood, tells me that I'm such a good dad to our kids and says I'm the reason she thinks a 3rd kid is a good idea. Our level of emotional investment hasn't changed,she hasn't tuned out at all so I really don't think she is falling in love with another man. I legitimately feel that is not the case here. Our fantasy talk or real talk has always been centered on strangers, "random hotties" that we encounter that turn us on. It's no secret that a long marriage involves both partners occasionally thinking of these "random hotties" during intimacy. It's no secret either that we see attractive people and get turned on by them too. We both acknowledge this. We've both acknowledged that we think of other people during sex. Like once time I saw a scantily clad woman at a store with no bra, a skimpy tank top and short shorts showing off her rear end and she absolutely got my engine going. During sex, I told her about her and she told me to imagine her while we were going at it. Other times I start with the dirty talk and her response is "no, I just want you" which is when she just wants to make love. But I'm rambling.....the point is, for the two of us, the random stranger that we find desirable or that they find us desirable is the actual "kink", this is the turn on that would make two average looking individuals with no significant traits considered to be "peak beauty" feel sexually charged. I hate to think I am alone in both of us being turned on by this but the onslaught of commenters seem to indicate that perhaps I am. Like every normal couple out there has the "I only think about you baby" attitude except maybe OldShirt. Part of being honest with the two of us is acknowledging what we are thinking. But in either case, I think my head is in a better place than 2 days ago. The commenters seem to think that I am some political lefty (terms have been used in comments like "woke" or neo-feminist), which is frankly quite insulting. I'm a super moderate guy and I don't fall into all this team red/team blue silliness. I am just a guy who likes his wife to feel desired and gets turned on when she feels desires, especially because she has had self esteem issues for the majority of her life. Commenters have talked about her waxing her hoo-ha like if that is some sort of dead giveaway of infidelity. I disagree. She has always been "very hairy" down there. She doesn't like to shave because she would often get painful ingrown hairs. But we go to the beach and she doesn't like a huge muff bulging through her swimsuit. So in July prior to a beach trip, she decided to do a full Brazilian so that the hair wouldn't show through her white full body swimsuit. I didn't object and actually found it quite arousing as I could see the whole thing. And when I play down there, she says she can feel every part of her organ getting treated since it's so clean. This is when she says she started feeling more "womanly" and I guess started getting a big head about her sexuality. People also comment that shes losing weight for someone else or to find a new partner. Again, I disagree. She has always struggled with her weight. At one point she was 240 lbs. Her ideal weight is 175. She is down to 180. So this has been the cycle off and on since I've known her. Weight loss isn't something she just started doing, she's been trying to manage it for most of her life. But what I am saying is that these are all contributing factors that have led us where we are at. Shes looking good and feeling good about herself. More eyes are going in her direction. Shes at a crossroads in life with motherhood. She's had unhealthy subconscious reinforcement from me that I might be open for an open marriage. Couple all this with being out on the town with her gal pals with booze in the mix can certainly lead to disaster. I think that's why our boundary conversation was crucial, and she knows my honest feelings about our dirty talk and how we have to cut it off. I agree that we are probably still playing with fire, and by no means do I feel like I am out of the woods, but i do feel that at least in a sober state, we are on the same page. I feel like I at least have a water hose handy instead of being empty handed.



Your fantasy talk is fine as long as there are solid boundaries in place on real life behavior and as long as you are ready, willing and able to enforce them.

Everyone fantasizes about other people to one degree or another at times. Anyone that says they don’t are just trying to look holier than thou. Some may even be able to convince THEMSELVES that they don’t... but they actually do. 

This is all a boundary and appropriate behavior issue. 

It’s ok to have fantasy talk if it gets your motor running. There ain’t nothing wrong with that and full grown adults are able to differentiate between pillow talk and mutual consent for an open relationship. 

But the key is solid, expressed boundaries and expectations of conduct in real life.


----------



## Gabriel

No problem with fantasies.  They just need to stay in your bedroom. My wife loves certain fantasies that involve another imaginary stranger - usually a woman. LOL.

Just make sure the boundaries are very clear. It's likely she realizes she may have gone a little too far and made you uncomfortable. She's got the message. Just enforce it when needed.

The clubbing/dancing need is a bit of a red flag still, but at least you are hyper aware at this point.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

BurntEnds said:


> Right, I agree. During our first talk, she even made mention that "I have my ring on so they know I'm taken" to which I scoffed and replied "right, like that is going to stop some horny bastard from going in for the kill". But her mindset was the key here, that she's not putting forth the effort to make men think she is single.


How often is she going on the GNOs?


----------



## Evinrude58

BurntEnds said:


> Right, I agree. During our first talk, she even made mention that "I have my ring on so they know I'm taken" to which I scoffed and replied "right, like that is going to stop some horny bastard from going in for the kill". *But her mindset was the key here, that she's not putting forth the effort to make men think she is single.*


But you are actually believing what she’s telling you. That’s naive. What she’s told you about enjoy you by dancing, enjoying drinks, and WANTING to kiss men—- doesn’t logically match up to what she is saying.

Shes kissing them after they’ve bought her drinks and dancing with Them. She wants more than that.
Do you think she would tell you her mindset if she was wanting to do the deed, or tell you what she’s telling you?

Your marriage will not survive her clubbing, guaranteed.


----------



## BurntEnds

BigDaddyNY said:


> How often is she going on the GNOs?


Typically once or twice a month


----------



## Gabriel

How old is she?

ETA - you've been married 15 years. So she's at least in her mid-late 30s.

That's pretty old to be clubbing. Especially every month, sometimes twice a month. Seems she's wishing she was still a single 23 year old.

Not great.

I say this because my wife went through this phase with a bunch of single GFs a couple of times. Once around 30 and once again around 35. She did it more than your wife, even, and it almost ended our marriage more than once. The more she does that (this would go for guys too), the less time she's investing in the relationship and the more she's wishing for a different life.

I speak from experience.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

BurntEnds said:


> Typically once or twice a month


I am sorry, but this is a recipe for disaster. You and your wife are seeing how close she can dance to the fire before you by proxy, get burned and if these GNOs continues, the fire WILL engulf your marriage. It's just a matter of time.

Married people don't allow one of the spouses to have a night, being essentially single once or twice a week with all the temptations it entails and alcohol to boot. Especially with the poor boundaries you set for her and her expressing her desire for the attention of other men.

These GNOs are nothing but a ticking time bomb and if not halted in their entirety immediately, will blow up your marriage, no matter how many words of assurance she sweetly mouths to you.

You are not there to protect her when she drunkenly succumbs to the one silver tongued Adonis who just happens to find her on a night out when she had just one too many, already filled with the admitted desire for the attention of other men and just vulnerable enough to forget you, dutifully babysitting for her at home. That will be the night she drops her drawers and your weak boundaries and personal justifications for her GNOs would be partly responsible for this to blow up the marriage.

Biology is biology and if you as husband stands weak, your wife would succumb to the siren call of her hormones and you along with your progressive thinking about relationship boundaries would carry partial blame, OP.

All this is preventable. Don't just contract the boundary to no drinks bought by other men, no dancing with them without you present and no kissing them even a brush of a kiss. The GNOs has to end since this is the breeding ground for ONSs and other forms of adultery that has blown many a marriage to smithereens.

Heed my words or don't, but if not, one day in the not so distant future, you would wish you had.


----------



## BurntEnds

Gabriel said:


> How old is she?
> 
> ETA - you've been married 15 years. So she's at least in her mid-late 30s.
> 
> That's pretty old to be clubbing. Especially every month, sometimes twice a month. Seems she's wishing she was still a single 23 year old.
> 
> Not great.
> 
> I say this because my wife went through this phase with a bunch of single GFs a couple of times. Once around 30 and once again around 35. She did it more than your wife, even, and it almost ended our marriage more than once. The more she does that (this would go for guys too), the less time she's investing in the relationship and the more she's wishing for a different life.
> 
> I speak from experience.


I think the terminology "clubbing" insinuates something different to me. She's playing music bingo at a ******* bar with her teacher friends, most of which are older, fatter and married. She is 35. She's not out with a bunch of young gorgeous skinny little things. Believe me, if she was going to the metro downtown with a crew of hotties and coming home at 3am, I'd be scared to death. But I know she is with older not so desirable gals (which makes her by default the pick of the litter) playing bingo at a hick bar in the sticks and normally gets home like at 11 or 12. Some months she doesn't even have a GNO at all. It's more infrequent than frequent


----------



## Diana7

BurntEnds said:


> I mean, the feedback I'm getting from the vast majority of the posts here seem to say "run for the hill, it's done for" but from our conversation, she made it to be like she wants to make changes to keep the marriage intact. She made the "let's eliminate the kinky talk", suggestion, she said she feels much better about the direction of our marriage now that I "cleared the air". She suggested I do things for myself. I was originally going to see new new 007 movie on Saturday by myself at the movie/brewhouse. She said "let's get a sitter and go together." She said, "why haven't we had conversations like these before?" I may be a fool but I wholeheartedly believe she respects what I am not willing to tolerate. My only concern is when too much alcohol happens, those boundaries are out the window. I got what I needed from the kiss talk.....lip to lip kissing to me means it may as well be over. Look, in my younger days, I would frequent bars while married to see live touring bands. I kept her awake aplenty while she wondered what kind of shenanigans I might get myself into. But I don't drink much at all, and I was never there to pursue other women. I was legitimately there to watch live music. Would girls occasionally look in my direction? Sure, but I never approached them. Would I talk to them on occasion when approached? Sure, sometimes a woman would just converse with me and I would talk for a little and that was that. Was "sex racing through my head"? Yeah, absolutely. I'm a red blooded male. But I respected her enough to know right from wrong. The issue here is too much alcohol. I'm comfortable with the boundaries regarding free drinks, dancing and flirting because if the shoe was on the other foot, I would want her to understand that I'm not totally going to shun myself from interaction. So long as it stays in my pants and as long as she keeps it in hers, I would want her to be okay with some playful flirting or a random dance with a random stranger too on my end because unfaithfulness isn't what is driving the behavior, "having a good time and feeling good about myself" is the driver. I do believe she is not all on on adultery but our years of sex talk was in retrospect a horrible idea because I'm sure when the looks started going her way, she was likely testing the waters to see where my stance is. I don't think I'm out of the woods, not by a longshot. 2 conversations is one thing, being drunk and trying to make sound decisions is another. HappilyMarried1, I respect your input, it is the most valuable to me in these comments. Please let me know what you think of this.


Ok so now I get it. You aren't going to make a fuss about her flirting, drinking or dancing with other guys because you want to be able to do those things with other women.

Sadly I expect you back here in a year or two to say that she got too drunk one night and had sex with another guy. That we were right.
You both clearly have very weak boundaries with the opposite sex and that opens the door to many dangers.


----------



## Diana7

BurntEnds said:


> I will keep updating as events occur. I get the feeling that my wife is at a crossroads in her life. The older the kids get, she gets really sad that they're not babies anymore and misses the motherhood aspect of raising little ones. She's wanted a third child and wrestles with that versus advancing her career in education. I think a lot of this plays into our current dynamic. I read the post you recommended and I really do not have worries about "a consistent man that she is becoming emotionally invested with". She doesn't exhibit warning signs of an emotional attachment with another man and she isn't trying to get knocked up by another man just because she wrestles with having a third child. She always praises my fatherhood, tells me that I'm such a good dad to our kids and says I'm the reason she thinks a 3rd kid is a good idea. Our level of emotional investment hasn't changed,she hasn't tuned out at all so I really don't think she is falling in love with another man. I legitimately feel that is not the case here. Our fantasy talk or real talk has always been centered on strangers, "random hotties" that we encounter that turn us on. It's no secret that a long marriage involves both partners occasionally thinking of these "random hotties" during intimacy. It's no secret either that we see attractive people and get turned on by them too. We both acknowledge this. We've both acknowledged that we think of other people during sex. Like once time I saw a scantily clad woman at a store with no bra, a skimpy tank top and short shorts showing off her rear end and she absolutely got my engine going. During sex, I told her about her and she told me to imagine her while we were going at it. Other times I start with the dirty talk and her response is "no, I just want you" which is when she just wants to make love. But I'm rambling.....the point is, for the two of us, the random stranger that we find desirable or that they find us desirable is the actual "kink", this is the turn on that would make two average looking individuals with no significant traits considered to be "peak beauty" feel sexually charged. I hate to think I am alone in both of us being turned on by this but the onslaught of commenters seem to indicate that perhaps I am. Like every normal couple out there has the "I only think about you baby" attitude except maybe OldShirt. Part of being honest with the two of us is acknowledging what we are thinking. But in either case, I think my head is in a better place than 2 days ago. The commenters seem to think that I am some political lefty (terms have been used in comments like "woke" or neo-feminist), which is frankly quite insulting. I'm a super moderate guy and I don't fall into all this team red/team blue silliness. I am just a guy who likes his wife to feel desired and gets turned on when she feels desires, especially because she has had self esteem issues for the majority of her life. Commenters have talked about her waxing her hoo-ha like if that is some sort of dead giveaway of infidelity. I disagree. She has always been "very hairy" down there. She doesn't like to shave because she would often get painful ingrown hairs. But we go to the beach and she doesn't like a huge muff bulging through her swimsuit. So in July prior to a beach trip, she decided to do a full Brazilian so that the hair wouldn't show through her white full body swimsuit. I didn't object and actually found it quite arousing as I could see the whole thing. And when I play down there, she says she can feel every part of her organ getting treated since it's so clean. This is when she says she started feeling more "womanly" and I guess started getting a big head about her sexuality. People also comment that shes losing weight for someone else or to find a new partner. Again, I disagree. She has always struggled with her weight. At one point she was 240 lbs. Her ideal weight is 175. She is down to 180. So this has been the cycle off and on since I've known her. Weight loss isn't something she just started doing, she's been trying to manage it for most of her life. But what I am saying is that these are all contributing factors that have led us where we are at. Shes looking good and feeling good about herself. More eyes are going in her direction. Shes at a crossroads in life with motherhood. She's had unhealthy subconscious reinforcement from me that I might be open for an open marriage. Couple all this with being out on the town with her gal pals with booze in the mix can certainly lead to disaster. I think that's why our boundary conversation was crucial, and she knows my honest feelings about our dirty talk and how we have to cut it off. I agree that we are probably still playing with fire, and by no means do I feel like I am out of the woods, but i do feel that at least in a sober state, we are on the same page. I feel like I at least have a water hose handy instead of being empty handed.


You said it. 'In a sober state you are on the same page'. As we all know and as we have seen on tam many times, drunk makes people act very differently. Cheating is often done when drunk.


----------



## Diana7

BurntEnds said:


> I think the terminology "clubbing" insinuates something different to me. She's playing music bingo at a ***** bar with her teacher friends, most of which are older, fatter and married. She is 35. She's not out with a bunch of young gorgeous skinny little things. Believe me, if she was going to the metro downtown with a crew of hotties and coming home at 3am, I'd be scared to death. But I know she is with older not so desirable gals (which makes her by default the pick of the litter) playing bingo at a hick bar in the sticks and normally gets home like at 11 or 12. Some months she doesn't even have a GNO at all. It's more infrequent than frequent


You said earlier that she usually goes out with one women in her 20's and one in her 40's. 
You are now trying to play down the things you said earlier.


----------



## BurntEnds

Diana7 said:


> You said earlier that she usually goes out with one women in her 20's and one in her 40's.
> You are now trying to play down the things you said earlier.


One friend that is 22 and recently married. The others are well into their 40s. I suppose I would take the comment back that my wife is the pick of the litter. The 22 year old is thin, beautiful and Asian. My wife is 35, chubby, average looking and white.


----------



## oldshirt

BurntEnds said:


> I think the terminology "clubbing" insinuates something different to me. She's playing music bingo at a ***** bar with her teacher friends, most of which are older, fatter and married. She is 35. She's not out with a bunch of young gorgeous skinny little things. Believe me, if she was going to the metro downtown with a crew of hotties and coming home at 3am, I'd be scared to death. But I know she is with older not so desirable gals (which makes her by default the pick of the litter) playing bingo at a hick bar in the sticks and normally gets home like at 11 or 12. Some months she doesn't even have a GNO at all. It's more infrequent than frequent


So in other words Brad Pitt may pass her over for a younger, hotter woman. 

But what about Rex from the car dealership and the other guys that are actually at the bar? How high do you think their standards for BJ in the parking lot are actually going to be?? 

And newsflash - overweight, lesser attractive 40 year old women are still sexual beings. 

As many have said, this is all about boundaries and expectation of appropriate behavior. 

Part of being proactive in having boundaries is to understand and realize the risks. 

You have consistently been trying to assert that things things can’t happen and that you are somehow protected and exempt. 

Trust that you are not protected or exempt.


----------



## HappilyMarried1

Try not to get to upset @BurntEnds most on here are just trying to give you helpful information and signs to watch out for. If this is the club or bar she always goes to is different but in your other post it seemed to be more of a bar or nightclub. If this place she’s going to tomorrow night is the same one they always go to I understand this last post my suggestions of what might happen if she continues going to a bra nightclub dance club scene.


----------



## BurntEnds

HappilyMarried1 said:


> Try not to get to upset @BurntEnds most on here are just trying to give you helpful information and signs to watch out for. If this is the club or bar she always goes to is different but in your other post it seemed to be more of a bar or nightclub. If this place she’s going to tomorrow night is the same one they always go to I understand this last post my suggestions of what might happen if she continues going to a bra nightclub dance club scene.


Oh goodness no, it is certainly not a "show your bra and legs" type of nightclub. It's just a notch above a biker bar. The clientele is mostly made up of middle aged folks listening to country music. This is all superficial though, because alcohol acts the same whether in a glitzy nightclub or an old red neck bar. I think that might skew some people's thinking as to my situation, but like I said, booze is booze so that's the prism I'm looking at this situation through.


----------



## HappilyMarried1

BurntEnds said:


> *My wife goes out with her girlfriends every now and then, maybe twice a month and usually to a karaoke bar or a brewhouse.*


This was the sentence I was basing some of my thoughts of what could happen to your wife. 



BurntEnds said:


> She's playing music bingo at a ***** bar with her teacher friends, most of which are older, fatter and married.





BurntEnds said:


> playing bingo at a hick bar in the sticks and normally gets home like at 11 or 12.


See these messages is a totally different description of where she is going compared to your first post. I agree it is a little less likely but I still say if it continues there is a lot higher chance something bad could happen rather than nothing at all. Just be careful. There still could be some younger mid-late 20's like what he sees in your wife and push all of the right buttons and add alcohol and something totally unplanned happens.


----------



## BurntEnds

HappilyMarried1 said:


> This was the sentence I was basing some of my thoughts of what could happen to your wife.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See these messages is a totally different description of where she is going compared to your first post. I agree it is a little less likely but I still say if it continues there is a lot higher chance something bad could happen rather than nothing at all. Just be careful. There still could be some younger mid-late 20's like what he sees in your wife and push all of the right buttons and add alcohol and something totally unplanned happens.


Yes, I see now how it could produce different visuals. Its basically a "brewhouse" (which is just a bar) that hosts events like -
*Karaoke night
*Music bingo
*Bunko night
.....you get the idea. When they're done hosting the event, its typically country/western music and folks will get up and dance. I see now how folks could take away a visual of some sexy ritzy dance club full of college kids and raging hormones. This is far from that kind of place. When my wife goes out with the gals, she still dresses up relatively conservative. Jeans and a nice blouse, no cleavage (not much to show off). It really is "teachers winding down" from a long week of dealing with stressful elementary school kids. The key here is alcohol intake mixed with our history of dirty talk.


----------



## Al_Bundy

HappilyMarried1 said:


> This was the sentence I was basing some of my thoughts of what could happen to your wife.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See these messages is a totally different description of where she is going compared to your first post. I agree it is a little less likely but I still say if it continues there is a lot higher chance something bad could happen rather than nothing at all. Just be careful. There still could be some younger mid-late 20's like what he sees in your wife and push all of the right buttons and add alcohol and something totally unplanned happens.


Don't forget the most obvious culprits.......the band. (if it's a place with live music). It's usually the drummer that goes for the bigger chicks.


----------



## BurntEnds

Al_Bundy said:


> Don't forget the most obvious culprits.......the band. (if it's a place with live music). It's usually the drummer that goes for the bigger chicks.


Not gonna lie, I was actually a drummer for a long time in my youth


----------



## Cici1990

Al_Bundy said:


> Don't forget the most obvious culprits.......the band. (if it's a place with live music). It's usually the drummer that goes for the bigger chicks.


Omg.


----------



## HappilyMarried1

BurntEnds said:


> Not gonna lie, I was actually a drummer for a long time in my youth


There you go now you can tell your wife that you play the drums and look what she does with you.


----------



## Al_Bundy

BurntEnds said:


> Not gonna lie, I was actually a drummer for a long time in my youth


Maybe you could get back into it, find a local band. Then her and the gals could go watch you play. Being serious here.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Here I was picturing 50 cent in da club. It’s more like 99 cent store, in da hoedown.


----------



## BurntEnds

Al_Bundy said:


> Maybe you could get back into it, find a local band. Then her and the gals could go watch you play. Being serious here.


In actuality considering this. When I first became alarmed, that was the first thing that came to my mind, to get back into playing music. I have lots of musical equipment too, but that would indeed be great all around


----------



## Alittlelost57

BurntEnds said:


> In actuality considering this. When I first became alarmed, that was the first thing that came to my mind, to get back into playing music. I have lots of musical equipment too, but that would indeed be great all around


OK, it seems like you and your wife are playing with fire near your marriage certificate, and your first thought was to get the band back together. 

I can see it.


----------



## Diana7

BurntEnds said:


> Yes, I see now how it could produce different visuals. Its basically a "brewhouse" (which is just a bar) that hosts events like -
> *Karaoke night
> *Music bingo
> *Bunko night
> .....you get the idea. When they're done hosting the event, its typically country/western music and folks will get up and dance. I see now how folks could take away a visual of some sexy ritzy dance club full of college kids and raging hormones. This is far from that kind of place. When my wife goes out with the gals, she still dresses up relatively conservative. Jeans and a nice blouse, no cleavage (not much to show off). It really is "teachers winding down" from a long week of dealing with stressful elementary school kids. The key here is alcohol intake mixed with our history of dirty talk.


Regardless if where it is, she is still flirting, dancing with and accepting drunks and kissing other men. Totally inappropriate for a married woman with children.


----------



## BurntEnds

Alittlelost57 said:


> OK, it seems like you and your wife are playing with fire near your marriage certificate, and your first thought was to get the band back together.
> 
> I can see it.


Well, my thought process was "what if she leaves me or cheats on me? What do I have going for me? How can I start a new if the worst comes true? Start playing music again like where I was in life before she and I met?" Thata where my head was at in the chaos if you need context


----------



## TAMAT

BurntEnds said:


> The 22 year old is thin, beautiful and Asian


Ok for me Asian was enough for all the other women to go invisible or talk about dull things with them


----------



## Alittlelost57

BurntEnds said:


> Well, my thought process was "what if she leaves me or cheats on me? What do I have going for me? How can I start a new if the worst comes true? Start playing music again like where I was in life before she and I met?" Thata where my head was at in the chaos if you need context


I was being a little indirect. Doing things for yourself is a food idea, by the way, but you seem to be missing my point. You are either troubled by your wife's behavior, or you're turned on by it. If you're troubled, speak to her about her behavior. It's risky to your relationship (even if you kinda get off on it--maybe especially then). If this is your fantasy playing out, you're dragging us into it without our consent. Or I take that back, a few people likely get off on you getting off, but still.


----------



## Alittlelost57

Alittlelost57 said:


> I was being a little indirect. Doing things for yourself is a *food* idea, by the way, but you seem to be missing my point. You are either troubled by your wife's behavior, or you're turned on by it. If you're troubled, speak to her about her behavior. It's risky to your relationship (even if you kinda get off on it--maybe especially then). If this is your fantasy playing out, you're dragging us into it without our consent. Or I take that back, a few people likely get off on you getting off, but still.


 Good idea. WTF?


----------



## HappilyMarried1

BurntEnds said:


> It really is "teachers winding down" from a long week of dealing with stressful elementary school kids. The key here is alcohol intake mixed with our history of dirty talk.


I totally understand that my wife of 34 years are both retired teachers. Just be careful and I’m glad you got your feelings and boundaries stated before it went to far to do anything about. I still suggest to keep your guard and senses up.


----------



## oldshirt

Diana7 said:


> Regardless if where it is, she is still flirting, dancing with and accepting drunks and kissing other men. Totally inappropriate for a married woman with children.


As long as a bar has karaoke night and bingo night, those things are OK. 

Nothing bad ever happens at bingo night.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Al_Bundy said:


> Don't forget the most obvious culprits.......the band. (if it's a place with live music). It's usually the drummer that goes for the bigger chicks.


LOL, funny side story, but kind of relevant here. My wife and I were recently at a local bar/dance club that we regularly go to for live music. There was a group of 4 or 5 quite tipsy women behind, most were a little on the chubby side. We heard one of them say, "I really want to make out with the drummer, but I love my husband." I thought it was funny as hell. Then I started thinking about what her husband might think of that comment. I was glad to hear she had some self control, at that point in time. I wonder how many more drinks it would take before that desire to make out surpassed her love her husband.


----------



## BurntEnds

BigDaddyNY said:


> LOL, funny side story, but kind of relevant here. My wife and I were recently at a local bar/dance club that we regularly go to for live music. There was a group of 4 or 5 quite tipsy women behind, most were a little on the chubby side. We heard one of them say, "I really want to make out with the drummer, but I love my husband." I thought it was funny as hell. Then I started thinking about what her husband might think of that comment. I was glad to hear she had some self control, at that point in time. I wonder how many more drinks it would take before that desire to make out surpassed her love her husband.


That's pretty much my situation with my wife, so I appreciate the story. I know she loves me and we both know that we are really horny people ( we get intimate almost nightly and she climaxes a minimum of 2 times). But it just takes that 1 drink that breaks the camel's back before she could find her going that extra step, so I know she is like the chubby gal in your story but not knowing when to stop the drinks can put anyone in that boat no matter how strong the love for their partner is.


----------



## Amanhasnoname

Al_Bundy said:


> Don't forget the most obvious culprits.......the band. (if it's a place with live music). It's usually the drummer that goes for the bigger chicks.


Hey you, I was a drummer in a band (many moons ago) and I prefer slim petite women. (mind you I was a sh8te drummer so that could be it)


----------



## ccpowerslave

BurntEnds said:


> …not knowing when to stop the drinks can put anyone in that boat no matter how strong the love for their partner is.


Not really. I have done plenty of drinking in my time and getting wasted never made me suddenly cheat on my wife.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

ccpowerslave said:


> Not really. I have done plenty of drinking in my time and getting wasted never made me suddenly cheat on my wife.


Yes same here, but did you and your wife talk in explicit detail about sexual fantasies with other people while you were having sex? The problem here is the seed of that thought has been planted. It seems very plausible that too much alcohol could blur the lines between reality and that fantasy.


----------



## oldshirt

ccpowerslave said:


> Not really. I have done plenty of drinking in my time and getting wasted never made me suddenly cheat on my wife.


Yeah but you’re a guy so that doesn’t count. 
When you get drunk, your just a sloppy drunk that chicks wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole.

When a chick gets drunk, she becomes a target.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

oldshirt said:


> Yeah but you’re a guy so that doesn’t count.
> When you get drunk, your just a sloppy drunk that chicks wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole.
> 
> When a chick gets drunk, she becomes a target.


Have you seen the movie Promising Young Woman?


----------



## BurntEnds

ccpowerslave said:


> Not really. I have done plenty of drinking in my time and getting wasted never made me suddenly cheat on my wife.


Yeah, and I trust that my wife has that same ingrained honor system but I think what makes us different than you and your wife is that we have a long history of fantasy talk involving strangers (wife swapping, swinging, threesomes, gang bangs, etc.). All that unhealthy talk could have subconsciously given her the impression that i want her to act on her fantasies and when drunk enough, that's all it takes to light the fuse. Hence our talk about boundaries, our agreement to cut out the dirty talk and we even talked about "having one too many" drinks when out with the gals.


----------



## BurntEnds

oldshirt said:


> Yeah but you’re a guy so that doesn’t count.
> When you get drunk, your just a sloppy drunk that chicks wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole.
> 
> When a chick gets drunk, she becomes a target.


100% agree


----------



## oldshirt

BigDaddyNY said:


> Yes same here, but did you and your wife talk in explicit detail about sexual fantasies with other people while you were having sex? The problem here is the seed of that thought has been planted. It seems very plausible that too much alcohol could blur the lines between reality and that fantasy.


I realize my outlooks and perspectives are different than most of the people on this site.

But I think the “seeds” of having desires and fantasies were planted millions of years ago on the plains of Africa. 

We all have fantasies and desires that extend beyond our spouse. That’s just part of being a creature of the earth. 

The only thing that the OP has done a little different than the most uptight and inhibited of people here is he and his wife have acknowledged it and incorporated it into their marital sexual dynamics. 

Her desires and fantasies were already there and have been since puberty and will be there until she dies. The OP did not create her desire or fantasies. 

Now did their sex talk somehow make her feel like she has a little more license to explore those desires and fantasies while out on the town??? Yeah sure maybe.

But that’s why it’s critical for him to be more assertive and more proactive to instill and enforce clear and solid boundaries and expectations of appropriate behavior in real life.


----------



## Cici1990

BurntEnds said:


> Yeah, and I trust that my wife has that same ingrained honor system but I think what makes us different than you and your wife is that we have a long history of fantasy talk involving strangers (wife swapping, swinging, threesomes, gang bangs, etc.). All that unhealthy talk could have subconsciously given her the impression that i want her to act on her fantasies and when drunk enough, that's all it takes to light the fuse. Hence our talk about boundaries, our agreement to cut out the dirty talk and we even talked about "having one too many" drinks when out with the gals.


I don’t think your talks about that stuff is going to be what tips her over the edge in her drunken state. I don’t think she’s going to subconsciously think you’re ok with her doing any of that, whether she’s drunk or not. I think if she’s flirting with other men, dancing with them, kissing them in the cheek, and has one too many drinks it could possibly progress to a little more since her inhibitions will be lower, she’ll be feeling good from the attention and flirting which sort of feeds into itself and you want more more more and it goes from flirting to some playful touches, to a kiss, giggle, more touching, out the door we go. If that happens, which I’m not so sure it will but could in many situations like this, it won’t be because of the dirty talk putting thoughts in her mind. In those moments she’s probably not even thinking about her husband and their dirty talk. She’s just feeling pretty light and good and now empowered by the male attention and to be honest in that situation if a woman is going to cheat she’ll most likely do it regardless of whether she and her husband have talked about gang bangs or not.

In saying all of that, I’m not on the side of “omg she waxed her cha cha, that’s a sure fire sign she’s planning to get with another guy.” 

I just think the husband and wife dirty talk behind closed doors isn’t going to be the deciding factor on whether she kisses, blows, or does something else with a guy at the bar.


----------



## Evinrude58

Sudden changes in appearance like waxing, buying lingerie the husband has never seen,
Wearing sexier clothes, unaccounted for time, phone guarding..... red flags.

but op has explained away the waxing.
He’s explained away a lot.

but what he can’t seem to explain away is the fact that she wants to kiss other men, and that she is going out clubbing and enjoying make attention.

when I was married, I sold a ‘68 chevelle that I took a year restoring myself in my spare time.... because it was getting me attention from women, ie pgone numbers and requests...
Because I didn’t want to put myself in a tempting situation. This lady is pursuing it.


----------



## Cici1990

Evinrude58 said:


> Sudden changes in appearance like waxing, buying lingerie the husband has never seen,
> Wearing sexier clothes, unaccounted for time, phone guarding..... red flags.
> 
> but op has explained away the waxing.
> He’s explained away a lot.
> 
> but what he can’t seem to explain away is the fact that she wants to kiss other men, and that she is going out clubbing and enjoying make attention.
> 
> when I was married, I sold a ‘68 chevelle that I took a year restoring myself in my spare time.... because it was getting me attention from women, ie pgone numbers and requests...
> Because I didn’t want to put myself in a tempting situation. This lady is pursuing it.


You sold your car because it was getting you attention from women? You felt you were that weak willed that having a woman hit on you over your car was going to be that much of a temptation that you’d actually pursue something and it’d end your marriage?

People are different 🤷‍♀️. I like when women hit on my husband. I like his cool car and that other women want to sleep with him. That turns me on. If he’s that weak willed that some woman hitting on him over his car is going to tempt him to sleep with her or something there are bigger problems at hand.

Anyway, I agree that the combination of being turned on by the idea of kissing other guys, liking the male attention, and the alcohol could possibly lead to something more. You’re talking to somebody who loves male attention and the feeling it gives me. I also agree that a ton of sudden changes in combination could be a red flag. Has he said that she’s buying lingerie he never sees? Guarding her phone? Had unaccounted for times away from him? I haven’t seen that said but maybe I missed it. For some women, especially when they reach a certain time in their lives, a combination of purely appearance changes doesn’t automatically mean they are looking to open themselves up for business with other men. She’s a wife and mother and has reached a certain time in her life and good for her that she’s lost weight, is feeling sexier, and the waxing may just go along with her efforts to feel hotter, younger, and so on. I think it’s unfair to say any of that automatically means she’s looking to get with other men, even with the fantasies they’ve shared together. Now, there are cases where women do improve their appearances for themselves and/or their spouses initially and as a side effect they gain a lot of confidence, start getting hit on by men that never paid attention to them before, and it all goes to their heads and suddenly they have outgrown their husbands and need something more exciting. I don’t think many married women actually drastically change/improve their appearance with the intention of finding a new man, but sometimes it is a side effect. If you aren’t used to getting that sort of attention before and suddenly you are, I imagine it can be quite intoxicating even without the alcohol involved. Maybe you haven’t felt like a sexual being for a long time and now…


----------



## LATERILUS79

Evinrude58 said:


> Sudden changes in appearance like waxing, buying lingerie the husband has never seen,
> Wearing sexier clothes, unaccounted for time, phone guarding..... red flags.
> 
> but op has explained away the waxing.
> He’s explained away a lot.
> 
> but what he can’t seem to explain away is the fact that she wants to kiss other men, and that she is going out clubbing and enjoying make attention.
> 
> when I was married, I sold a ‘68 chevelle that I took a year restoring myself in my spare time.... because it was getting me attention from women, ie pgone numbers and requests...
> Because I didn’t want to put myself in a tempting situation. This lady is pursuing it.


Evinrude58, I understand where you are coming from. You do what you have to do in order to remove yourself from temptation. Clearly when people think they can take on temptation they often fail as can be seen by multiple members here on this board.


----------



## Cici1990

I have to say Evinrude58 was dedicated to his marriage in that respect. I just can’t think of any man (or woman) I know in real life who would do that. This is why it’s just hard for me to comprehend. This is shocking to me, actually. So I guess I just know a lot of selfish people then (quite possible).


I do understand the concept of removing yourself from situations where temptation might be present because it’s something I need to practice myself, I just cannot fathom that a car would put somebody in that many tempting situations where you’d be in contact with any of these women long enough for anything to possibly happen. I guess these women were coming on pretty strong and not leaving him alone, hanging on him in bars, showing him their tatas, propositioning him for a bathroom rendezvous, idk.

I guess I still can’t quite get my head around the idea that people feel the need to remove all sorts of temptation from their lives. Certain things are obvious, like having too much to drink and kissing men at bars is definitely a danger zone for the typical person. But those people who feel the need to put up safeguards to avoid most interaction with the opposite sex, a bit extreme to me. I rather become the type of person who can be in all sorts of tempting situations and not bat an eye. Then I’d feel like the strength and power was within me and that I was truly trustworthy and not “trustworthy” simply because I’ve put all of these extreme safeguards in place. Isn’t it a bad sign when you have to remove the smallest interactions with the opposite sex?

What does that say about you if you can’t even trust yourself or your spouse to get a few winks and phone numbers thrown your way because chicks dig the car and not be tempted? I guess this is something that I actually think about frequently, but not specifically regarding a car…this is just a good example.


----------



## oldshirt

Cici1990 said:


> People are different 🤷‍♀️. I like when women hit on my husband. I like his cool car and that other women want to sleep with him. That turns me on. If he’s that weak willed that some woman hitting on him over his car is going to tempt him to sleep with her or something there are bigger problems at hand.


“Women don’t necessarily want a man that cheats on them. But they love a man that COULD cheat.”

- Rollo Tomassi


----------



## oldshirt

Cici1990 said:


> I have to say Evinrude58 was dedicated to his marriage in that respect. I just can’t think of any man (or woman) I know in real life who would do that. This is why it’s just hard for me to comprehend. This is shocking to me, actually. So I guess I just know a lot of selfish people then (quite possible).
> 
> 
> I do understand the concept of removing yourself from situations where temptation might be present because it’s something I need to practice myself, I just cannot fathom that a car would put somebody in that many tempting situations where you’d be in contact with any of these women long enough for anything to possibly happen. I guess these women were coming on pretty strong and not leaving him alone, hanging on him in bars, showing him their tatas, propositioning him for a bathroom rendezvous, idk.
> 
> I guess I still can’t quite get my head around the idea that people feel the need to remove all sorts of temptation from their lives. Certain things are obvious, like having too much to drink and kissing men at bars is definitely a danger zone for the typical person. But those people who feel the need to put up safeguards to avoid most interaction with the opposite sex, a bit extreme to me. I rather become the type of person who can be in all sorts of tempting situations and not bat an eye. Then I’d feel like the strength and power was within me and that I was truly trustworthy and not “trustworthy” simply because I’ve put all of these extreme safeguards in place. Isn’t it a bad sign when you have to remove the smallest interactions with the opposite sex?
> 
> What does that say about you if you can’t even trust yourself or your spouse to get a few winks and phone numbers thrown your way because chicks dig the car and not be tempted? I guess this is something that I actually think about frequently, but not specifically regarding a car…this is just a good example.


It’s exactly how many guys become beta/simps.

They take the traits and characteristics and activities that made them attractive and desirable the place (such as cool cars etc)
and the squash them and suppress them for the perceived comfort of their partner. 

Then years later when they’re fat on the couch wearing old sweat pants and spending their days playing Mr Mom and dutifully washing the dishes and vacuuming, they can’t understand why their wife hasn’t touched them in a year.

(I’m not saying evenrude is one of those, but it’s stuff like this that is how it happens)


----------



## LATERILUS79

oldshirt said:


> It’s exactly how many guys become beta/simps.
> 
> They take the traits and characteristics and activities that made them attractive and desirable the place (such as cool cars etc)
> and the squash them and suppress them for the perceived comfort of their partner.
> 
> Then years later when they’re fat on the couch wearing old sweat pants and spending their days playing Mr Mom and dutifully washing the dishes and vacuuming, they can’t understand why their wife hasn’t touched them in a year.
> 
> (I’m not saying evenrude is one of those, but it’s stuff like this that is how it happens)


I see what you are saying, oldshirt, but I see two different situations here. 

There is the situation that you describe of allowing oneself to become less attractive to your partner and giving into actions that will cause your partner to become less attracted to you. There is no way in hell I'm going to allow myself to become fat, lazy and spending my days playing Mr. Mom. My wife deserves a lot better than that.


The second situation is actively removing oneself from temptation. For me personally, I will literally sprint away from women that are getting too close, flirting too much and trying to cause sexual arousal in me. There is no "prize" for successfully fighting temptation, so why fight it? Why not just remove yourself from the equation? The destruction that happens for just one little slip-up is not worth the fight. If I can remove myself from a situation that can go bad in a hurry, then I'm going to do it. If I can remove the woman that is flirting with me so that I can I think more clearly about everything I would lose if I screw up, then I'm going to do it - LET ALONE the horrific pain I could cause my wife if I do mess up. I personally would not be able to live with myself if I cheated on my wife. I couldn't do that to another person. It is very difficult for me to understand the mindset of someone that seemingly has no problem causing so much pain to another human being in that way.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Cici1990 said:


> What does that say about you if you can’t even trust yourself or your spouse to get a few winks and phone numbers thrown your way because chicks dig the car and not be tempted?


I have been hit on a few times because of “bling” including both of my sports cars and also watches. I actually felt embarrassed. Both cars are gone.

For me it wasn’t a temptation, I bought those items for myself and I was like hmm…I am representing middle aged gold digger target.

To be fair to the ladies I wasn’t wearing my wedding ring pretty much ever during those years, not sure it would have mattered.

Today a female coworker asked me how I maintain my cool and don’t kill people at work. I told her I used to when I was younger but now I’m too old to care. She said she would have guessed my age was X which is 10 years younger than my actual age. God bless her. That kind of interaction much better than, “I like your watch.”

Edit: I didn’t sell the cars because of unwanted female attention I sold them because of unwanted attention period. Fast and Furious boy racer challenges, driving flashy car in downtown SF (communist central) is unwise especially with the number of crazy homeless people who will throw a brick through your window, and then the general people taking pictures and selfies and stuff with your license plate on it. No thanks.


----------



## Diana7

oldshirt said:


> As long as a bar has karaoke night and bingo night, those things are OK.
> 
> Nothing bad ever happens at bingo night.





LATERILUS79 said:


> Evinrude58, I understand where you are coming from. You do what you have to do in order to remove yourself from temptation. Clearly when people think they can take on temptation they often fail as can be seen by multiple members here on this board.


 Yes.
Its very wise and sensible to have strong boundaries with the opposite sex.


----------



## Diana7

Cici1990 said:


> You sold your car because it was getting you attention from women? You felt you were that weak willed that having a woman hit on you over your car was going to be that much of a temptation that you’d actually pursue something and it’d end your marriage?
> 
> People are different 🤷‍♀️. I like when women hit on my husband. I like his cool car and that other women want to sleep with him. That turns me on. If he’s that weak willed that some woman hitting on him over his car is going to tempt him to sleep with her or something there are bigger problems at hand.
> 
> Anyway, I agree that the combination of being turned on by the idea of kissing other guys, liking the male attention, and the alcohol could possibly lead to something more. You’re talking to somebody who loves male attention and the feeling it gives me. I also agree that a ton of sudden changes in combination could be a red flag. Has he said that she’s buying lingerie he never sees? Guarding her phone? Had unaccounted for times away from him? I haven’t seen that said but maybe I missed it. For some women, especially when they reach a certain time in their lives, a combination of purely appearance changes doesn’t automatically mean they are looking to open themselves up for business with other men. She’s a wife and mother and has reached a certain time in her life and good for her that she’s lost weight, is feeling sexier, and the waxing may just go along with her efforts to feel hotter, younger, and so on. I think it’s unfair to say any of that automatically means she’s looking to get with other men, even with the fantasies they’ve shared together. Now, there are cases where women do improve their appearances for themselves and/or their spouses initially and as a side effect they gain a lot of confidence, start getting hit on by men that never paid attention to them before, and it all goes to their heads and suddenly they have outgrown their husbands and need something more exciting. I don’t think many married women actually drastically change/improve their appearance with the intention of finding a new man, but sometimes it is a side effect. If you aren’t used to getting that sort of attention before and suddenly you are, I imagine it can be quite intoxicating even without the alcohol involved. Maybe you haven’t felt like a sexual being for a long time and now…


Cici how can you talk about others lo being weak willed when you have both shown clearly that you have few boundaries?


----------



## Dictum Veritas

Cici1990 said:


> I rather become the type of person who can be in all sorts of tempting situations and not bat an eye.


Remind us again, how that worked out for you? You have been extremely lucky, if one other sperm made it across the mark first, you would most probably be facing single motherhood. For most here it is wise to steer clear of temptation. For those who think they don't have to, it is actually paramount.


----------



## Cici1990

oldshirt said:


> I have been hit on a few times because of “bling” including both of my sports cars and also watches. I actually felt embarrassed. Both cars are gone.
> 
> For me it wasn’t a temptation, I bought those items for myself and I was like hmm…I am representing middle aged gold digger target.
> 
> To be fair to the ladies I wasn’t wearing my wedding ring pretty much ever during those years, not sure it would have mattered.
> 
> Today a female coworker asked me how I maintain my cool and don’t kill people at work. I told her I used to when I was younger but now I’m too old to care. She said she would have guessed my age was X which is 10 years younger than my actual age. God bless her. That kind of interaction much better than, “I like your watch.”
> 
> Edit: I didn’t sell the cars because of unwanted female attention I sold them because of unwanted attention period. Fast and Furious boy racer challenges, driving flashy car in downtown SF (communist central) is unwise especially with the number of crazy homeless people who will throw a brick through your window, and then the general people taking pictures and selfies and stuff with your license plate on it. No thanks.


Nothing wrong with selling the cars if that’s what you wanted to do. My mind is blown over somebody selling their car because it resulted in too much temptation regarding the opposite sex, that’s all.

My husband doesn’t keep his car because of the attention he gets (honestly, we’ve discovered I get a lot more attention when I drive it than he does when he drives it), but because he loves it and he always dreamed of having that car and it makes him happy. I agree that he enjoys attention/compliments about other things more than comments made about his cool car. He loves to tell me when somebody thought he was in his early 20s or when somebody asks to touch his butt….ok, not even I go up to men and ask to touch their butts, so I do t know who he’s hanging around. But he knows it gets me excited when he tells me these things or when I witness it happen with my own eyes.


----------



## Twodecades

Some people value their spouse and their marriage over their cars. Or ego kibbles. Or porn. Or fantasies. Or their own wants. It's called "sacrifice," and it's a part of being an adult. A healthy marriage requires two of those.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Cici1990 said:


> My husband doesn’t keep his car because of the attention he gets (honestly, we’ve discovered I get a lot more attention when I drive it than he does when he drives it), but because he loves it and he always dreamed of having that car and it makes him happy.


That’s why I bought my first one, I wanted it since I was a kid. Then the one I had wasn’t exactly what I wanted after driving it for a few years so I sold it and ordered exactly what I wanted.

I really thought I would have that car until I was dead. My wife wanted a really expensive new car and I was like well she sold her sports car, so ok I will sell mine. She thought I was crazy but basically I didn’t need it anymore. Getting it was more fun than having it.


----------



## oldshirt

Cici1990 said:


> Nothing wrong with selling the cars if that’s what you wanted to do. My mind is blown over somebody selling their car because it resulted in too much temptation regarding the opposite sex, that’s all.
> 
> My husband doesn’t keep his car because of the attention he gets (honestly, we’ve discovered I get a lot more attention when I drive it than he does when he drives it), but because he loves it and he always dreamed of having that car and it makes him happy. I agree that he enjoys attention/compliments about other things more than comments made about his cool car. He loves to tell me when somebody thought he was in his early 20s or when somebody asks to touch his butt….ok, not even I go up to men and ask to touch their butts, so I do t know who he’s hanging around. But he knows it gets me excited when he tells me these things or when I witness it happen with my own eyes.


I’m not sure why that quoted me as I did not say that. 

I drive a dodge truck and wear. $49.95 Timex LOL

My super power is I am a gray man that disappears in a crowd of 3.


----------



## Cici1990

Dictum Veritas said:


> Remind us again, how that worked out for you? You have been extremely lucky, if one other sperm made it across the mark first, you would most probably be facing single motherhood. For most here it is wise to steer clear of temptation. For those who think they don't have to, it is actually paramount.


I am not there yet. I said I’d like to be. I’m working on my own personal boundaries and not necessarily focused on building a fortress around myself. For some people, building a fortress is their boundary and that’s where they are comfortable, ok. I don’t think I will ever be inside a fortress and I know maybe that’s a bad thing but I just don’t see that being realistic for me or for my husband.
I will not have male friends that I associate with alone, talk to privately via text, phone, social media, that sort of thing. I will never give a man my number, no matter if it’s under the guise of “friends,” and so on. These are rules I have for myself now that didn’t exist in my world before.


----------



## Cici1990

Twodecades said:


> Some people value their spouse and their marriage over their cars. Or ego kibbles. Or porn. Or fantasies. Or their own wants. It's called "sacrifice," and it's a part of being an adult. A healthy marriage requires two of those.


Fair enough.


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## Diana7

Cici1990 said:


> Nothing wrong with selling the cars if that’s what you wanted to do. My mind is blown over somebody selling their car because it resulted in too much temptation regarding the opposite sex, that’s all.
> 
> My husband doesn’t keep his car because of the attention he gets (honestly, we’ve discovered I get a lot more attention when I drive it than he does when he drives it), but because he loves it and he always dreamed of having that car and it makes him happy. I agree that he enjoys attention/compliments about other things more than comments made about his cool car. He loves to tell me when somebody thought he was in his early 20s or when somebody asks to touch his butt….ok, not even I go up to men and ask to touch their butts, so I do t know who he’s hanging around. But he knows it gets me excited when he tells me these things or when I witness it happen with my own eyes.


Come on Cici, you both love attention from the opposite sex, especially you. 
Honestly I spend no time at all thinking about what women think of my husband or what men think of me. 
It not something that matters to us, we are both secure in ourselves and what we think of each other is what matters. 

It must be very draining to need that sort of attention for yourself and for your husband.


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## Cici1990

Diana7 said:


> Come on Cici, you both love attention from the opposite sex, especially you.
> Honestly I spend no time at all thinking about what women think of my husband or what men think of me.
> It not something that matters to us, we are both secure in ourselves and what we think of each other is what matters.
> 
> It must be very draining to need that sort of attention for yourself and for your husband.


Yes, we both do. However, I can’t remember the last time I actually craved male attention. Then again, I was heavily pregnant. I know it will be a real test once I am back out into the real world again and back in shape. Will my therapy and work on myself be enough? It feels good not being overly concerned with having every guy’s attention when I walk in a room. It is almost like a burden is lifted off of me when I’m not thinking about or craving that. I no longer have any male numbers in my phone other than family and 2 gay guys who are married to each other and are my friends. My husband on the other hand still talks to his female friends.

Admittedly, yes it matters to me if other people want my husband and find him physically attractive. Sigh.

And admittedly, the thing I love most about driving his car is the male attention I get. I haven’t driven it in a while because it was too hard to get into during late pregnancy. Maybe I should take a page out of Evinrude’s book and not drive it when alone ever again. Maybe I’ll try it and see if I can resist the temptation.

And admittedly I have talked way too much in this thread and will respectfully stop at this time so that we can focus on the OP.


----------



## Diana7

Cici1990 said:


> I am not there yet. I said I’d like to be. I’m working on my own personal boundaries and not necessarily focused on building a fortress around myself. For some people, building a fortress is their boundary and that’s where they are comfortable, ok. I don’t think I will ever be inside a fortress and I know maybe that’s a bad thing but I just don’t see that being realistic for me or for my husband.
> I will not have male friends that I associate with alone, talk to privately via text, phone, social media, that sort of thing. I will never give a man my number, no matter if it’s under the guise of “friends,” and so on. These are rules I have for myself now that didn’t exist in my world before.


Yet you both still want to bring another man in and have sex with him.
It's not about building a fortress of course, you well know that, it's about loving your spouse and marriage enough to want to protect it. You may say you want to stay married but yours and your husband's actions dont say that.


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## oldshirt

Cici1990 said:


> And admittedly I have talked way too much in this thread and will respectfully stop at this time so that we can focus on the OP.


I think your insight and perspective as a female who likes male attention and has crossed the line into infidelity has much value to this topic even though it makes a number of people uncomfortable. 

In forums like these we can either offer comforting lies or uncomfortable truths.


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## BigDaddyNY

Cici1990 said:


> You sold your car because it was getting you attention from women? You felt you were that weak willed that having a woman hit on you over your car was going to be that much of a temptation that you’d actually pursue something and it’d end your marriage?
> 
> People are different 🤷‍♀️. I like when women hit on my husband. I like his cool car and that other women want to sleep with him. That turns me on. If he’s that weak willed that some woman hitting on him over his car is going to tempt him to sleep with her or something there are bigger problems at hand.
> 
> Anyway, I agree that the combination of being turned on by the idea of kissing other guys, liking the male attention, and the alcohol could possibly lead to something more. You’re talking to somebody who loves male attention and the feeling it gives me. I also agree that a ton of sudden changes in combination could be a red flag. Has he said that she’s buying lingerie he never sees? Guarding her phone? Had unaccounted for times away from him? I haven’t seen that said but maybe I missed it. For some women, especially when they reach a certain time in their lives, a combination of purely appearance changes doesn’t automatically mean they are looking to open themselves up for business with other men. She’s a wife and mother and has reached a certain time in her life and good for her that she’s lost weight, is feeling sexier, and the waxing may just go along with her efforts to feel hotter, younger, and so on. I think it’s unfair to say any of that automatically means she’s looking to get with other men, even with the fantasies they’ve shared together.* Now, there are cases where women do improve their appearances for themselves and/or their spouses initially and as a side effect they gain a lot of confidence, start getting hit on by men that never paid attention to them before, and it all goes to their heads and suddenly they have outgrown their husbands and need something more exciting. *I don’t think many married women actually drastically change/improve their appearance with the intention of finding a new man, but sometimes it is a side effect. If you aren’t used to getting that sort of attention before and suddenly you are, I imagine it can be quite intoxicating even without the alcohol involved. Maybe you haven’t felt like a sexual being for a long time and now…


That is when the husband needs to be paying attention to his wife and recognize positive changes. Then he should be the one that steps up the flirting and desire for his wife. Let her get that thrill from him, even a little can go a long way IMO.


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## TXTrini

oldshirt said:


> I think your insight and perspective as a female who likes male attention and has crossed the line into infidelity has much value to this topic even though it makes a number of people uncomfortable.
> 
> In forums like these we can either offer comforting lies or uncomfortable truths.


I quite agree the biggest opportunity for growth lies in discomfort. 

In fact, as a BS, I appreciate a window into the mind of a WS. I will never understand the mind of a WS, b/c like others have said, if two people want their marriage to work, they will do everything in their power to safeguard it, maybe they don't understand or value the concept of loyalty.

Burnt, I ended up divorcing my WS, b/c I recognized that he was a weak, selfish man. He wasn't sure of himself, he needed other people's good opinions of him to feel good about himself. He was jealous of my "perfect" family (they aren't!) and apparently resented me for being what he thought he wasn't. He didn't understand marriage wasn't a competition, but a team effort. 

It's great you both talked about what you can do going forward, but don't get complacent. Talk is cheap, keep your eyes and ears open and measure her actions. It might be a matter of time if she values other men's attention more than yours. You need to ask her why she values external validation so much, that's the sign of a weak, broken person and can't go unaddressed. 

I've never understood why people value the attention of outsiders, they're strangers you pass in the streets. They're not invested in you or supporting you in any way.


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## cp3o

Amanhasnoname said:


> Hey you, I was a drummer in a band (many moons ago) and I prefer slim petite women. (mind you I was a sh8te drummer so that could be it)


Me also - word for word.


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## Evinrude58

Cici1990 said:


> I have to say Evinrude58 was dedicated to his marriage in that respect. I just can’t think of any man (or woman) I know in real life who would do that. This is why it’s just hard for me to comprehend. This is shocking to me, actually. So I guess I just know a lot of selfish people then (quite possible).
> 
> 
> I do understand the concept of removing yourself from situations where temptation might be present because it’s something I need to practice myself, I just cannot fathom that a car would put somebody in that many tempting situations where you’d be in contact with any of these women long enough for anything to possibly happen. I guess these women were coming on pretty strong and not leaving him alone, hanging on him in bars, showing him their tatas, propositioning him for a bathroom rendezvous, idk.
> 
> I guess I still can’t quite get my head around the idea that people feel the need to remove all sorts of temptation from their lives. Certain things are obvious, like having too much to drink and kissing men at bars is definitely a danger zone for the typical person. But those people who feel the need to put up safeguards to avoid most interaction with the opposite sex, a bit extreme to me. I rather become the type of person who can be in all sorts of tempting situations and not bat an eye. Then I’d feel like the strength and power was within me and that I was truly trustworthy and not “trustworthy” simply because I’ve put all of these extreme safeguards in place. Isn’t it a bad sign when you have to remove the smallest interactions with the opposite sex?
> 
> What does that say about you if you can’t even trust yourself or your spouse to get a few winks and phone numbers thrown your way because chicks dig the car and not be tempted? I guess this is something that I actually think about frequently, but not specifically regarding a car…this is just a good example.


I had lots of numbers I threw away and only accepted out of courtesy.
I wore my ring. I trashed the card or number out at the gas pump or out if sight of the person that gave it.
Until one day a young girl in her late twenties that was gorgeous gave me hers, and I caught myself hesitating when I threw it away. I caught myself actually considering the idea in my head. It was up for sale a week later and I told my wife at the time that it got crappy gas mileage and I always worried about scratching it and I was tired of it. She never knew the real reason.

I wasn’t easily tempted. But that car brought more attention than I was accustomed to. Cici, you fail to consider that you’re gorgeous and have had that kind of attention all your life. You’re accustomed to it. I wasn’t.


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## Cici1990

Evinrude58 said:


> I had lots of numbers I threw away and only accepted out of courtesy.
> I wore my ring. I trashed the card or number out at the gas pump or out if sight of the person that gave it.
> Until one day a young girl in her late twenties that was gorgeous gave me hers, and I caught myself hesitating when I threw it away. I caught myself actually considering the idea in my head. It was up for sale a week later and I told my wife at the time that it got crappy gas mileage and I always worried about scratching it and I was tired of it. She never knew the real reason.
> 
> I wasn’t easily tempted. But that car brought more attention than I was accustomed to. Cici, you fail to consider that you’re gorgeous and have had that kind of attention all your life. You’re accustomed to it. I wasn’t.


I respect what you did, Evinrude. Good for you.


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## Evinrude58

Thx, I’m not perfect. I don’t think I’m immune to messing up. Matter of fact, I know that I’m capable of misdeeds and do what I can to avoid doing some of the worst ones.


----------



## BurntEnds

Cici1990 said:


> You sold your car because it was getting you attention from women? You felt you were that weak willed that having a woman hit on you over your car was going to be that much of a temptation that you’d actually pursue something and it’d end your marriage?
> 
> People are different 🤷‍♀️. I like when women hit on my husband. I like his cool car and that other women want to sleep with him. That turns me on. If he’s that weak willed that some woman hitting on him over his car is going to tempt him to sleep with her or something there are bigger problems at hand.
> 
> Anyway, I agree that the combination of being turned on by the idea of kissing other guys, liking the male attention, and the alcohol could possibly lead to something more. You’re talking to somebody who loves male attention and the feeling it gives me. I also agree that a ton of sudden changes in combination could be a red flag. Has he said that she’s buying lingerie he never sees? Guarding her phone? Had unaccounted for times away from him? I haven’t seen that said but maybe I missed it. For some women, especially when they reach a certain time in their lives, a combination of purely appearance changes doesn’t automatically mean they are looking to open themselves up for business with other men. She’s a wife and mother and has reached a certain time in her life and good for her that she’s lost weight, is feeling sexier, and the waxing may just go along with her efforts to feel hotter, younger, and so on. I think it’s unfair to say any of that automatically means she’s looking to get with other men, even with the fantasies they’ve shared together. Now, there are cases where women do improve their appearances for themselves and/or their spouses initially and as a side effect they gain a lot of confidence, start getting hit on by men that never paid attention to them before, and it all goes to their heads and suddenly they have outgrown their husbands and need something more exciting. I don’t think many married women actually drastically change/improve their appearance with the intention of finding a new man, but sometimes it is a side effect. If you aren’t used to getting that sort of attention before and suddenly you are, I imagine it can be quite intoxicating even without the alcohol involved. Maybe you haven’t felt like a sexual being for a long time and now…


This is spot on, hit the nail right on the head. You couldn't have said this any better. No, she's not buying lingerie that I never see, she tells me to buy her lingerie but is often self conscience to dress in it due to "mommy tummy". She will put it on occasionally when she is feeling extra frisky though. No, she never guards her phone. I'll get into it every once in awhile to check her monthly cycle app when she's not looking just so that I know when I should "not blow up" inside of her. Our kids are in her phone all the time too. She doesn't have unaccounted time away from me either. When she tells me where she is going, I'll usually check our bank app every few days to make sure nobody has swiped my card at the gas pump and made a bunch of fraudulent purchases, and the purchases i see that she made exactly fit what she told me a day or a few days prior. Your post hits home because yes, she is facing 40 in just a matter of years and she is always working on herself and this is exactly why I wanted a female perspective. It has to be hard for a women to feel unattractive and old, especially when you see yourself as "mediocre" looking. Honestly, my wife is cute. She's not a supermodel, she doesnt exude sex appeal, she's just cute. To me however, I feel like i am married to the hottest woman to ever grace this planet. And I tell her often, but she knows that I am saying that because im her husband and I should be saying that, so the comment kinda rings empty. So I think this random attention that she has gotten really boosts her confidence, because now she knows that its not just the husband that finds her attractive, it's men that she actually finds attractive too that find her attractive, and that must definitely shoot her confidence level way up. Confidence that she didn't have before, so i know it must be intoxicating for her, and if not well managed, could veer into dangerous territory. The alarm bell rang when she said that she wanted to kiss other men. Mind you, my tongue was halfway up her hoo-ha with a vibrating toy rubbing against her poop chute and she was rubbing the little man in the boat at the same time when she said this, but that was alarming enough for me to stop and think, "hold up now, what kind of kissing are we talking about? Fantasy or are you seeing how much slack i will give on the marriage leash?" Admittedly, I want to kiss other women, and I want to have sex with other women, but our understanding is that i would never act on those impulses. There is a neighbor that my wife knows I fantasize about often, but I would never in my wildest dreams even dare to wave at this neighbor or say hello in passing, because I wouldnt want to give my wife the impression that I am inching closer to act on my fantasy. Im glad my wife is feeling confident and sexy and attractive and all of that. I just wanted to make sure that I shut down the idea of an open marriage with her, and that we had boundary discussions, all thanks to some of the feedback on this forum (HappilyMarried1, oldshirt, etc.). I felt that she was on the road to an open marriage conclusion in her head with the permission of implied messaging via our sex talk and now that she was getting male attention, she was all-in. She knows where I stand now even if she wasnt being up front of where she saw herself headed. I truly believe that she wants the marriage to hold up though, she pushes to make our family life better, at times even more so than I do. This doesn't mean that I am going to let my guard down, I will always be hyper-aware when things don't add up, but for now, I think I am in a much healthier place than I was 3 days ago. Much of the feedback on here has helped me realize too that I need to work on myself, like eating better and getting in better shape. I want to feel desirable too, and I know that if I present myself in a more desirable state and other women take notice, my wife will get turned on by that just as much as I do knowing that other men desire her. Earlier today, I went to get some breakfast and a moderately attractive woman complimented me on my sweatshirt. We exchanged some brief words, but that1 minute interaction did go a long way for me, because it made me think, "she could have not said anything and just ignored me like any other person would, but she was encouraged to say something" and that made me feel a little better about myself. Like, maybe I too still exude some sexuality like I had 20 years ago. Relationships are complicated, life is complicated, human nature is complicated. But i truly feel like I made progress, and much of this progress came by way of some of the commenters, so if it's worth anything, thank you to anyone that may have read this response to Cici.


----------



## Diana7

BurntEnds said:


> This is spot on, hit the nail right on the head. You couldn't have said this any better. No, she's not buying lingerie that I never see, she tells me to buy her lingerie but is often self conscience to dress in it due to "mommy tummy". She will put it on occasionally when she is feeling extra frisky though. No, she never guards her phone. I'll get into it every once in awhile to check her monthly cycle app when she's not looking just so that I know when I should "not blow up" inside of her. Our kids are in her phone all the time too. She doesn't have unaccounted time away from me either. When she tells me where she is going, I'll usually check our bank app every few days to make sure nobody has swiped my card at the gas pump and made a bunch of fraudulent purchases, and the purchases i see that she made exactly fit what she told me a day or a few days prior. Your post hits home because yes, she is facing 40 in just a matter of years and she is always working on herself and this is exactly why I wanted a female perspective. It has to be hard for a women to feel unattractive and old, especially when you see yourself as "mediocre" looking. Honestly, my wife is cute. She's not a supermodel, she doesnt exude sex appeal, she's just cute. To me however, I feel like i am married to the hottest woman to ever grace this planet. And I tell her often, but she knows that I am saying that because im her husband and I should be saying that, so the comment kinda rings empty. So I think this random attention that she has gotten really boosts her confidence, because now she knows that its not just the husband that finds her attractive, it's men that she actually finds attractive too that find her attractive, and that must definitely shoot her confidence level way up. Confidence that she didn't have before, so i know it must be intoxicating for her, and if not well managed, could veer into dangerous territory. The alarm bell rang when she said that she wanted to kiss other men. Mind you, my tongue was halfway up her hoo-ha with a vibrating toy rubbing against her poop chute and she was rubbing the little man in the boat at the same time when she said this, but that was alarming enough for me to stop and think, "hold up now, what kind of kissing are we talking about? Fantasy or are you seeing how much slack i will give on the marriage leash?" Admittedly, I want to kiss other women, and I want to have sex with other women, but our understanding is that i would never act on those impulses. There is a neighbor that my wife knows I fantasize about often, but I would never in my wildest dreams even dare to wave at this neighbor or say hello in passing, because I wouldnt want to give my wife the impression that I am inching closer to act on my fantasy. Im glad my wife is feeling confident and sexy and attractive and all of that. I just wanted to make sure that I shut down the idea of an open marriage with her, and that we had boundary discussions, all thanks to some of the feedback on this forum (HappilyMarried1, oldshirt, etc.). I felt that she was on the road to an open marriage conclusion in her head with the permission of implied messaging via our sex talk and now that she was getting male attention, she was all-in. She knows where I stand now even if she wasnt being up front of where she saw herself headed. I truly believe that she wants the marriage to hold up though, she pushes to make our family life better, at times even more so than I do. This doesn't mean that I am going to let my guard down, I will always be hyper-aware when things don't add up, but for now, I think I am in a much healthier place than I was 3 days ago. Much of the feedback on here has helped me realize too that I need to work on myself, like eating better and getting in better shape. I want to feel desirable too, and I know that if I present myself in a more desirable state and other women take notice, my wife will get turned on by that just as much as I do knowing that other men desire her. Earlier today, I went to get some breakfast and a moderately attractive woman complimented me on my sweatshirt. We exchanged some brief words, but that1 minute interaction did go a long way for me, because it made me think, "she could have not said anything and just ignored me like any other person would, but she was encouraged to say something" and that made me feel a little better about myself. Like, maybe I too still exude some sexuality like I had 20 years ago. Relationships are complicated, life is complicated, human nature is complicated. But i truly feel like I made progress, and much of this progress came by way of some of the commenters, so if it's worth anything, thank you to anyone that may have read this response to Cici.


It seems odd to me that you can't even say hello to a neighbour (which is totally innocuous), yet she dances with, drinks with and kisses other men.

It's dangerous territory when either spouses craves/needs attention from the opposite sex. Oh and btw Cici may be turned on by other women desiring her husband but many of us love and desire our spouses anyway and have no interest in what others think or do. It sounds as if your wife is more jealous of other women rather than being turned on by them giving you attention.

It's very sad that you loving and desiring her isn't enough for her or some other wives. Honestly I have never cared less what other men think of me, its my husbands thoughts and desires that matter. Him alone.


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## Harold Demure

Hi BurntEnds.

I am just going to come right out and say that I think it is abnormal and wrong for your wife to behave like she does. It is unnecessary for her to flirt with other men, accept free drinks etc to have a good time with her friends and, for me, this is unacceptable.

Is this really the behaviour we would expect from a married woman or man? No. She may think it’s a bit of fun but she is sending out mixed messages.

It obviously makes you uncomfortable and her behaviour is triggering a lack of trust.

Personally, I would say that she has choices - carry on acting like this and see how long it takes for your marriage to disintegrate - stop going out alone if she can’t behave like a mature, married woman - start accepting that her behaviour is inappropriate and making you uncomfortable so that she just grows up and stops flirting/kissing/taking free drinks - accept that you are going to go out behaving in the same way.

I will probably get lambasted as some control freak but actually I think it is the voice of reason.


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## Diana7

Harold Demure said:


> Hi BurntEnds.
> 
> I am just going to come right out and say that I think it is abnormal and wrong for your wife to behave like she does. It is unnecessary for her to flirt with other men, accept free drinks etc to have a good time with her friends and, for me, this is unacceptable.
> 
> Is this really the behaviour we would expect from a married woman or man? No. She may think it’s a bit of fun but she is sending out mixed messages.
> 
> It obviously makes you uncomfortable and her behaviour is triggering a lack of trust.
> 
> Personally, I would say that she has choices - carry on acting like this and see how long it takes for your marriage to disintegrate - stop going out alone if she can’t behave like a mature, married woman - start accepting that her behaviour is inappropriate and making you uncomfortable so that she just grows up and stops flirting/kissing/taking free drinks - accept that you are going to go out behaving in the same way.
> 
> I will probably get lambasted as some control freak but actually I think it is the voice of reason.


Its called having wise boundaries isn't it.


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## Rus47

ccpowerslave said:


> That’s why I bought my first one, I wanted it since I was a kid. Then the one I had wasn’t exactly what I wanted after driving it for a few years so I sold it and ordered exactly what I wanted.
> 
> I really thought I would have that car until I was dead. My wife wanted a really expensive new car and I was like well she sold her sports car, so ok I will sell mine. She thought I was crazy but basically I didn’t need it anymore. Getting it was more fun than having it.


Always wanted a '58 'vet, from time was a teenager. Now that could afford one it just makes no sense. Would just be another money pit, and I have had enough of those for this life.


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## Rus47

Evinrude58 said:


> I had lots of numbers I threw away and only accepted out of courtesy.
> I wore my ring. I trashed the card or number out at the gas pump or out if sight of the person that gave it.
> Until one day a young girl in her late twenties that was gorgeous gave me hers, and I caught myself hesitating when I threw it away. I caught myself actually considering the idea in my head. It was up for sale a week later and I told my wife at the time that it got crappy gas mileage and I always worried about scratching it and I was tired of it. She never knew the real reason.
> 
> I wasn’t easily tempted. But that car brought more attention than I was accustomed to. Cici, you fail to consider that you’re gorgeous and have had that kind of attention all your life. You’re accustomed to it. I wasn’t.


IMO, if car a person drives attracts telephone numbers, it isn't person driving the thing that is receiving the attention. Married acquaintance of mine bought a new 'vet when he turned 55. When I asked why ( he was a P/U with gun rack kinda guy ), he told me he got it to facilitate picking up women, 'cause his wife wasn't giving him any attention. I told him it wouldn't end well for him. At 57 he was divorced n the xW owning the 'vet (and about everything else he owned ) and she was picking up guys.


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## Evinrude58

Rus47 said:


> IMO, if car a person drives attracts telephone numbers, it isn't person driving the thing that is receiving the attention. Married acquaintance of mine bought a new 'vet when he turned 55. When I asked why ( he was a P/U with gun rack kinda guy ), he told me he got it to facilitate picking up women, 'cause his wife wasn't giving him any attention. I told him it wouldn't end well for him. At 57 he was divorced n the xW owning the 'vet (and about everything else he owned ) and she was picking up guys.


Yes, o totally agree with you. However, being a total introvert, I think it gave a lot of people reason to strike up a conversation with me in spite of my Olympic golden RBF, and when I answered and talked a little and didn’t seem like the serial killer I probably look like..... they were interested in more than the car. Or not.
It could be that the muscle car exuded the idea that I had money I don’t have.... And we all know that is the honey that attracts a lot of flies. I really enjoyed the car. I had a lot of people that would start conversations about it, and I enjoyed driving it. Unlike a lot of old cars, it had a smooth ride and wasn’t all that noisy. It was a comfortable car. I wish I’d have kept it and had I known the future, I’d still own it. I have the knowledge now to put an LS engine and 4l80 transmission in it, and get better fuel mileage and cruise at a lot lower rpm than the power glide gave.
I was happy with my wife, and the car and attention wasn’t important at all to me.


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## oldshirt

@BurntEnds 

You had a lot of good info in your last post and a lot to digest. I will address some of the specific things you mentioned but first I want to address your lead-off question - Is your wife thinking about cheating?

What we need to do first here is kind of define what cheating is because the lines between cheating and having various degrees of sexual interaction, sexual stimulation and sexual contact with other people are getting blurry here (hence why I consider this primarily a boundary issue).

Cheating is usually not really about sexual desire or hornyness etc... it's primary motivation is usually selfishness, impulsiveness, entitlement and lack of respect and esteem for one's partner. 

Is your wife selfish and entitled?? Do rules and boundaries and restrictions apply to other people but not to her?

Does she have poor impulse control? does she take some kind of irresponsible or inappropriate action 0.5 seconds after the idea pops in her head?

Does she act without thinking of the possible repercussions or consequences of her actions?

Does she lack respect, esteem and compasison for you? Does she think of you as an insignificant being that may be a good errand boy but has no respect or admiration for you as a man?

Does she lack sexual attraction for and desire for you as a man? 

Does she feel disconnected and ignored/neglected by you? 

Does she feel emotionally and sexually denied by you? 


If you are answering yes to all of those things, the risks of her stepping out at some point are extremely high whether you have sexy pillow talk and fantasy talk or not because cheating is usually a matter of character and boundaries impulse control rather than hornyness and desire. 

If you've answered no to all of those, then the chances of her going out and having an actual affair are quite low despite your fantasy talk. 

Now none of us are perfect so she likely does have at least a few degrees of some of those traits.... so again it comes back to boundaries, impulse control and being aware of the ramifications and consequences of one's behavior. 

All humans are sexual beings and have wild and wooly fantasies and desires. All humans appreciate validation and attention from the opposite sex (or same sex if that is how they roll) Some couples even enjoy mutually consensual sexual activites with other people as part of their marital dynamic. 

But the actual act of cheating which is nonconsensual sexual contact without the foreknowledge and consent of one's partner is a matter of character, disrespect and entitlement.


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## BurntEnds

These words are actually quite helpful and would have benefited my state of mind greatly early in the week. Here are answers to your little quiz.....

Is your wife selfish and entitled?? 
Not at all. She is always sacrificing things for others and putting others first.

Do rules and boundaries and restrictions apply to other people but not to her?
No. There are little things, like we will use curse words every now and then but we tell the kids to never say ugly words. But I see that as small potatoes. Actual rules and restrictions are always respected, be they traffic laws, work rules, commitments to our church, etc.

Does she have poor impulse control? does she take some kind of irresponsible or inappropriate action 0.5 seconds after the idea pops in her head?
She is well disciplined, and really her weakness is clothes purchases. Sometimes she will tell me, "let's not go to Target, let's go to wal mart instead because I can't be trusted at Target". But if she wants a tattoo, she will dwell on it for many years before finally getting it. If she wants a pricey item from Amazon, it usually sits in her basket for weeks and weeks before finally deciding on it or not.

Does she act without thinking of the possible repercussions or consequences of her actions?
Never. She is always looking at the domino effect of her actions. She is a meticulous planner and schedules every little event that she has coming up.

Does she lack respect, esteem and compasison for you? 
Definitely not. If she says something that might cause offence, she is apologetic. She is encouraging when I shed a few pounds myself. I could go on and on.

Does she think of you as an insignificant being that may be a good errand boy but has no respect or admiration for you as a man?
Definitely not. See the previous answer.

Does she lack sexual attraction for and desire for you as a man?
I have to confidently say no here. When we met, we had sex like bunnies. Fast forward to now and we still have sex like bunnies.

Does she feel disconnected and ignored/neglected by you?
No. We always hug, snuggle, cuddle, tell each other how much we love each other, hold hands, I could go on and on.

Does she feel emotionally and sexually denied by you?
Never. See answer to the previous question. Sometimes I am just too exhausted from the night before and I'm not feeling it but we have a go again the following night. And sometimes she is too exhausted from the night before or because of a crummy day and she is not feeling it but we have a go again the next day.

I appreciate your insight, it really is helpful. Understand that when she said that she wants to kiss other men, I instantly thought she was planning to up and leave me high and dry or ask me permission to skank around town while I was at home playing nanny. I know my worst thoughts got the best of me but we have been much more communicative and we are in a much better place now that we cleared the air. She was supposed to go to music bingo with the gals last night. Most of the bailed except for 1 or 2. She opted to cancel too since most of the hens called it quits. If she was really cheating or looking to cheat, she could have easily said that the plan was still on and went to do who knows what. But again, she is an honest woman. A few hours later, another friend invited her over to her house to meet some other gals from work. She was out from 8-11 and called on her way home, "I was a good girl, I only had 2 drinks tonight!" I'm not worried about cheating, I'm worried about drinking too much.


----------



## oldshirt

BurntEnds said:


> #1: Honestly, my wife is cute. She's not a supermodel, she doesnt exude sex appeal, she's just cute. To me however, I feel like i am married to the hottest woman to ever grace this planet. And I tell her often, but she knows that I am saying that because im her husband and I should be saying that, so the comment kinda rings empty. So I think this random attention that she has gotten really boosts her confidence, because now she knows that its not just the husband that finds her attractive, it's men that she actually finds attractive too that find her attractive, and that must definitely shoot her confidence level way up.
> 
> #2: Confidence that she didn't have before, so i know it must be intoxicating for her, and if not well managed, could veer into dangerous territory.
> 
> 
> 
> #3: The alarm bell rang when she said that she wanted to kiss other men. Mind you, my tongue was halfway up her hoo-ha with a vibrating toy rubbing against her poop chute and she was rubbing the little man in the boat
> 
> #4: at the same time when she said this, but that was alarming enough for me to stop and think, "hold up now, what kind of kissing are we talking about? Fantasy or are you seeing how much slack i will give on the marriage leash?"
> 
> 
> #5: Admittedly, I want to kiss other women, and I want to have sex with other women, but our understanding is that i would never act on those impulses.
> 
> #6: Im glad my wife is feeling confident and sexy and attractive and all of that. I just wanted to make sure that I shut down the idea of an open marriage with her, and that we had boundary discussions, all thanks to some of the feedback on this forum (HappilyMarried1, oldshirt, etc.). I felt that she was on the road to an open marriage conclusion in her head with the permission of implied messaging via our sex talk and now that she was getting male attention, she was all-in. She knows where I stand now even if she wasnt being up front of where she saw herself headed.
> 
> #7: Much of the feedback on here has helped me realize too that I need to work on myself, like eating better and getting in better shape. I want to feel desirable too, and I know that if I present myself in a more desirable state and other women take notice, my wife will get turned on by that just as much as I do knowing that other men desire her.


Lots of info here and a few things I want to comment on specifically. 


#1: You're right here, it's just not the same coming from your spouse. You need to be her biggest fan, but no matter how much you appreciate her, it's just not the same and what comes from other men. It's just the nature of the beast, we all want some kind of validation that if our current partner gets eaten by a saber tooth tiger, we will be able to find another. 

#2: You hit the nail right on the head 100% on this one. This is where everyone is talking about playing with fire and having the fire truck parked in the driveway. It's ok to feel the warm glow from the campfire of validation..... but it's always a few inches and a wind gust and spark away from setting off a raging wildfire out of control. It's all about the boundaries and expectations of conduct. 

#3: this is exactly what I was talking about back on page #1. You need to be having these discussions on boundaries and expectations when you are stone cold sober during the light of the day when there are no horny hormones raging through your veins. There needs to be solid division between what goes on between the sheets of the marital bed between a married couple and what goes on in the real world outside. 

Others here may disagree but I think it is beneficial and positive for a couple to engage in a shared fantasy and be able to openly express their fantasies and desires with each other. Not all of those fantasies and desires are going to involve just the two of them. It's simply how we're wired as creatures of the earth. 

Many here will say that a couple should smack down those fantasies and suppress them and disallow them from ever being discussed or acknowledged. I think that is detrimental more often than not. 

I think it is healthier and more condusive to a marital sex life to acknowledge and even share in those fantasies and desires and get them out on the table and then establish BOUNDARIES and expectations of how those fantasies and desires will be addressed. 

You can't make those desires go away by saying you can't discuss them. It's better to acknowledge them and address them and mutually come up with a plan on how to deal with them than to try to deny them. 

#4: Realise that you are going to limits and comfort zones on what you are willing to discuss and where you are willing to let your mind go. You are going to have triggers as well. It's ok to have these fantasy talks and if discussing it openly gets your motor running and adding to the excitement, then great. But if something is triggering you and turning you OFF, then that needs to be addressed because it is going counter to what you are trying to accomplish with the fantasy talk in the first place. This is all a journey and not a destination and there will be bumps in the road. 

And with establishing clear and firm boundaries, that can even help you feel more comfortable to where you are able to delve deeper into your fantasies and desires and what was uncomfortable for you before, is now a turn on. 

#5: What's good for the goose is good for the gander. You're just as human and just as much of a sexual being as she is. You have your fantasies and desires as well. And again it will come back to establishing boundaries and expects on her part as well. When she's all horned up and randy, it may turn her on to picture you laying the lumber to room full of chicks as well....... or it may not. She needs to be an active participant in setting guidelines and boundaries as well. 

But as a man, you have fantasies and desires of different women as well. As a couple you can do as many do and try to deny that and suppress it and pretend it isn't there. Or you can be adults working collaboratively as a team and acknowledge those instinctual desires and find a mutually agreeable means of dealing with them. 

#6. I think you are starting to see the light here. I think you're getting it. Again this is a journey that never ends. It's a process and once you learn and can apply the process, then you can deal with these things as they arise. I think the key elements are open communication, mutual respect and compassion and the being able to collaboratively come up with expectations and boundaries. 

There will be those here that say that that was established with the marital vows of foresaking all others when at your wedding. But the truth is we go through many changes and transitions and evolutions as we go through our lives. The environment and playing fields change and we change as people as time goes on. To me the healthy couple is the couple that can navigate together and make course corrections and deal with the changing conditions as a process.

#7: Again, I think you are starting to catch on. Look, hypergamy is what it is. As a creature of the earth she is going to be drawn to her best available option at any given time. If you want to remain the object of her desire and want her to be connected to you for the long term, you're going to have to be her best available option at all times. The Game never ends. The best way to keep your wife from cheating is to be the man that she would cheat WITH. You be the sexy stud that she would go out into the parking lot with or meet at the No Tell Motel on her way home from work. 

It sounds like you already have an active and good sex life. That is good. A lot of the guys that come here because their wife has been hitting the clubs and coming home in the wee hours of the morning haven't had sex themselves in many months on end or even in years. They've turned into beta couch potatoes, gotten fat and lazy and the primal part of their wife's brain has started looking for the next suitable mate that can fight off the saber tooth tiger and bring home the meat (in more ways than one LOL)

Your wife has upped her Girl Game and is starting to be noticed and approached by other men. You're going to have to up YOUR GAME if you want to continue to be her best option. 

That may not be a comfortable concept for many people. But it's a reality. She has a vagina so she has options. It's on you to be her best option if you want to remain with her and you want to be the one who's penis she is sucking.


----------



## BurntEnds

oldshirt said:


> Lots of info here and a few things I want to comment on specifically.
> 
> 
> #1: You're right here, it's just not the same coming from your spouse. You need to be her biggest fan, but no matter how much you appreciate her, it's just not the same and what comes from other men. It's just the nature of the beast, we all want some kind of validation that if our current partner gets eaten by a saber tooth tiger, we will be able to find another.
> 
> #2: You hit the nail right on the head 100% on this one. This is where everyone is talking about playing with fire and having the fire truck parked in the driveway. It's ok to feel the warm glow from the campfire of validation..... but it's always a few inches and a wind gust and spark away from setting off a raging wildfire out of control. It's all about the boundaries and expectations of conduct.
> 
> #3: this is exactly what I was talking about back on page #1. You need to be having these discussions on boundaries and expectations when you are stone cold sober during the light of the day when there are no horny hormones raging through your veins. There needs to be solid division between what goes on between the sheets of the marital bed between a married couple and what goes on in the real world outside.
> 
> Others here may disagree but I think it is beneficial and positive for a couple to engage in a shared fantasy and be able to openly express their fantasies and desires with each other. Not all of those fantasies and desires are going to involve just the two of them. It's simply how we're wired as creatures of the earth.
> 
> Many here will say that a couple should smack down those fantasies and suppress them and disallow them from ever being discussed or acknowledged. I think that is detrimental more often than not.
> 
> I think it is healthier and more condusive to a marital sex life to acknowledge and even share in those fantasies and desires and get them out on the table and then establish BOUNDARIES and expectations of how those fantasies and desires will be addressed.
> 
> You can't make those desires go away by saying you can't discuss them. It's better to acknowledge them and address them and mutually come up with a plan on how to deal with them than to try to deny them.
> 
> #4: Realise that you are going to limits and comfort zones on what you are willing to discuss and where you are willing to let your mind go. You are going to have triggers as well. It's ok to have these fantasy talks and if discussing it openly gets your motor running and adding to the excitement, then great. But if something is triggering you and turning you OFF, then that needs to be addressed because it is going counter to what you are trying to accomplish with the fantasy talk in the first place. This is all a journey and not a destination and there will be bumps in the road.
> 
> And with establishing clear and firm boundaries, that can even help you feel more comfortable to where you are able to delve deeper into your fantasies and desires and what was uncomfortable for you before, is now a turn on.
> 
> #5: What's good for the goose is good for the gander. You're just as human and just as much of a sexual being as she is. You have your fantasies and desires as well. And again it will come back to establishing boundaries and expects on her part as well. When she's all horned up and randy, it may turn her on to picture you laying the lumber to room full of chicks as well....... or it may not. She needs to be an active participant in setting guidelines and boundaries as well.
> 
> But as a man, you have fantasies and desires of different women as well. As a couple you can do as many do and try to deny that and suppress it and pretend it isn't there. Or you can be adults working collaboratively as a team and acknowledge those instinctual desires and find a mutually agreeable means of dealing with them.
> 
> #6. I think you are starting to see the light here. I think you're getting it. Again this is a journey that never ends. It's a process and once you learn and can apply the process, then you can deal with these things as they arise. I think the key elements are open communication, mutual respect and compassion and the being able to collaboratively come up with expectations and boundaries.
> 
> There will be those here that say that that was established with the marital vows of foresaking all others when at your wedding. But the truth is we go through many changes and transitions and evolutions as we go through our lives. The environment and playing fields change and we change as people as time goes on. To me the healthy couple is the couple that can navigate together and make course corrections and deal with the changing conditions as a process.
> 
> #7: Again, I think you are starting to catch on. Look, hypergamy is what it is. As a creature of the earth she is going to be drawn to her best available option at any given time. If you want to remain the object of her desire and want her to be connected to you for the long term, you're going to have to be her best available option at all times. The Game never ends. The best way to keep your wife from cheating is to be the man that she would cheat WITH. You be the sexy stud that she would go out into the parking lot with or meet at the No Tell Motel on her way home from work.
> 
> It sounds like you already have an active and good sex life. That is good. A lot of the guys that come here because their wife has been hitting the clubs and coming home in the wee hours of the morning haven't had sex themselves in many months on end or even in years. They've turned into beta couch potatoes, gotten fat and lazy and the primal part of their wife's brain has started looking for the next suitable mate that can fight off the saber tooth tiger and bring home the meat (in more ways than one LOL)
> 
> Your wife has upped her Girl Game and is starting to be noticed and approached by other men. You're going to have to up YOUR GAME if you want to continue to be her best option.
> 
> That may not be a comfortable concept for many people. But it's a reality. She has a vagina so she has options. It's on you to be her best option if you want to remain with her and you want to be the one who's penis she is sucking.


More helpful and reassuring content here oldshirt. Much appreciated. As you know, I don't have any friends to talk these things over with, so both you and happilymarried1 have given valuable input. I went to the gym this morning with her and I feel great. I truly feel like I'm on a much needed "brand redevelopment" for myself too, and she is excited that I am going to be making smart diet and exercise choices. I'm not a fat lazy slob, I am 5'10" and just out of shape (love handles, man boobs, flabby arms) but I'm going to work on myself for myself and I believe the positive results will benefit her, me and our marriage. If I've taken anything away here, it's that I can't get complacent.


----------



## HappilyMarried1

BurntEnds said:


> Does she act without thinking of the possible repercussions or consequences of her actions?
> Never. She is always looking at the domino effect of her actions. She is a meticulous planner and schedules every little event that she has coming up.
> 
> Does she lack respect, esteem and compasison for you?
> Definitely not. If she says something that might cause offence, she is apologetic. She is encouraging when I shed a few pounds myself. I could go on and on.


I am sorry but I may need some clarification here based on how you answered these two questions. I would think if your answers here is correct then I don't see how she would go out and let men buy her drinks, dance with them, and kiss them. If how you answered these questions was correct she would have politely declined the drinks and dances and would have had no need to kiss a guy for those and would have come home and said the following: "Honey I had some men ask me to dance and to buy me some dirnks, but I turned them down" Then she would have said I felt flattered and nothing else would you be okay with this and nothing else the next time I go out and it happens again. I did not want to do anything or cross any lines, do something you are not comfortable with until I discussed it with you. Just my opinion.


----------



## oldshirt

BurntEnds said:


> If I've taken anything away here, it's that I can't get complacent.


Aahhhhh very good Grasshopper, you are learning (reference to 1970s tv show Kung Fu) 

Complacency kills. 

The trouble a lot of people run into is they think the wedding and the vows and the rings on the finger is the final buzzer of the game. They think they have won and have stood on the podium and got the medal around their neck while the national anthem plays, and from there they don't have to worry anymore because their partner will only desire them and will continue to desire and be devoted to them no matter what and that no one else will try to get into their spouse's knickers because they are married and wearing a wedding ring. This is the ideology of countless married couples across the land.

All of it is a fallacy however. 

The reality is the game is not over and there is no victory lap. The game of life has just begun. .....and that game never ends. 

Attraction and desire are fickle and funny things. A wedding ceremony and vows do not mean your partner will be attracted to you or desire you forever. If you get fat and lazy or neglectful of their wants and needs or you become mean and nasty or become a drunk or a druggie etc, they will not be any more attracted to you than some random person on the street. 

By the same token, the wedding ceremony, vows and ring does not mean that their sexuality shuts down or that they no longer have any appreciation or attractions for other people. We are are all still creatures of the earth regardless if we are married or not. 

And your marriage absolutely does not keep other people away or shuts down other people's attraction or desires. People will always be attracted and desire attractive and desirable people. A wedding ring does not shut down other people's desires and nor does it mean they will always follow social rules of fair play. 

Some people, both men and women, will even intentionally target married people for a variety of reasons. Married people with poor boundaries or poor impulse control, or who have neglectful or undesirable partners for whatever reason are actually a lot easier and much less cost to get into bed than single people and ask a heck of a lot less than single people. 

fantasy pillow talk is OK with proper boundaries and guidelines. Complacency, neglect and boredom are not.


----------



## BurntEnds

HappilyMarried1 said:


> I am sorry but I may need some clarification here based on how you answered these two questions. I would think if your answers here is correct then I don't see how she would go out and let men buy her drinks, dance with them, and kiss them. If how you answered these questions was correct she would have politely declined the drinks and dances and would have had no need to kiss a guy for those and would have come home and said the following: "Honey I had some men ask me to dance and to buy me some dirnks, but I turned them down" Then she would have said I felt flattered and nothing else would you be okay with this and nothing else the next time I go out and it happens again. I did not want to do anything or cross any lines, do something you are not comfortable with until I discussed it with you. Just my opinion.


Valid points, which is when this last occurred was when she had "one too many" those 2 weeks ago. The most meticulous planner is no longer such a great planner when they are past the point of self control under the influence of alcohol. But as I said in the beginning phases of this thread, I'd been giving her subconscious cues that her going that far was a-okay in my book, which thanks to our "comfort/discomfort" conversations, she understands my positions now. During getting hot and heavy, I would literally tell her things like, "sometimes I imagine you getting home late and having your brains screwed out by another man at his place". I think that would certainly leave any woman thinking "I think he's okay with me banging other guys". We had never visited these discussions in "the light of day" until this week. Do I think her bringing these things up during that night of concern was her planning things in her head? Absolutely. The thing is she never knew my clear boundaries because we never had those conversations. She knows now that I'm okay with her feelings attractive and good about herself while out with the gals, but that I'm totally not open with her actually getting her brains banged out at another man's place. I feel like fantasy and reality was VERY blurred in our relationship and this week has helped to clear much of it up.


----------



## BurntEnds

oldshirt said:


> Aahhhhh very good Grasshopper, you are learning (reference to 1970s tv show Kung Fu)
> 
> Complacency kills.
> 
> The trouble a lot of people run into is they think the wedding and the vows and the rings on the finger is the final buzzer of the game. They think they have won and have stood on the podium and got the medal around their neck while the national anthem plays, and from there they don't have to worry anymore because their partner will only desire them and will continue to desire and be devoted to them no matter what and that no one else will try to get into their spouse's knickers because they are married and wearing a wedding ring. This is the ideology of countless married couples across the land.
> 
> All of it is a fallacy however.
> 
> The reality is the game is not over and there is no victory lap. The game of life has just begun. .....and that game never ends.
> 
> Attraction and desire are fickle and funny things. A wedding ceremony and vows do not mean your partner will be attracted to you or desire you forever. If you get fat and lazy or neglectful of their wants and needs or you become mean and nasty or become a drunk or a druggie etc, they will not be any more attracted to you than some random person on the street.
> 
> By the same token, the wedding ceremony, vows and ring does not mean that their sexuality shuts down or that they no longer have any appreciation or attractions for other people. We are are all still creatures of the earth regardless if we are married or not.
> 
> And your marriage absolutely does not keep other people away or shuts down other people's attraction or desires. People will always be attracted and desire attractive and desirable people. A wedding ring does not shut down other people's desires and nor does it mean they will always follow social rules of fair play.
> 
> Some people, both men and women, will even intentionally target married people for a variety of reasons. Married people with poor boundaries or poor impulse control, or who have neglectful or undesirable partners for whatever reason are actually a lot easier and much less cost to get into bed than single people and ask a heck of a lot less than single people.
> 
> fantasy pillow talk is OK with proper boundaries and guidelines. Complacency, neglect and boredom are not.


Always insightful oldshirt. I really wish I knew you in real life and had you around to knock back a few beers and take in marriage advice, maybe even play a round of "snatch the pebble from my hand" with you. My marriage is nowhere close to being "safe" again, marriage never is. But your guidance has given me the right tools and the right approaches that I can use in my marriage.


----------



## HappilyMarried1

BurntEnds said:


> but that I'm totally not open with her actually getting her brains banged out at another man's place.


I know you are not okay with that but she now I hope you made clear that you are not ok with her kissing another guy in any form or fashion or grinding on some guy either.

Hey by the way @BurntEnds I think you mentioned a few days ago that she was going out with the girls last night. If so how did that go?


----------



## BurntEnds

HappilyMarried1 said:


> I know you are not okay with that but she now I hope you made clear that you are not ok with her kissing another guy in any form or fashion or grinding on some guy either.
> 
> Hey by the way @BurntEnds I think you mentioned a few days ago that she was going out with the girls last night. If so how did that go?


Happy you asked. She had a "music bingo" night planned at the same bar they go to. It was supposed to be at 7, and she was gonna go with the whole crew. Well through the day, many flaked out one by one to the point that if she still went, it would just be like her and 1 or 2 others. So she cancelled too, and I was like "oh, dang, sorry about that" but secretly I was relieved given the stressful week I've had. She was a little bummed but she got over it easily. Honestly, if "searching for male attention" rather than "enjoying getting the male attention" was in her playbook, she could have easily just still went anyways and took it from there. This is comforting because it let's me know that she wanted to be with "the whole gang" as her primary motivation. We then went out for dinner as a family, when one of her other friends texted if she wanted to go over to her house with some other co workers for girl time. I was fine with that, and actually much better prefer that to a bar scene. So she went her way after dinner and was out from 8-11, and even called me on her drive home saying "hey, just wanted to let you know that I was a good girl and only had 2 drinks!" Tonight, we have a sitter and we are going to watch the new 007 film. Last night during sex, she introduced the idea of maybe having sex in the car while we are out, and I won't lie, I was open to it. I took that as her trying to open up more healthier adventures in our REAL LIFE sexuality that doesn't involve other people. I feel like she feels that we kinda need to give the "talking dirty about other people" a rest for now. We made love the past 2 nights, but last night, she wanted a good pounding, hard and fast and so did I so we had a good go at it. She didn't want toys or oral, she just wanted flesh and blood ding dong and afterwards she said, "maybe sex in the car wouldn't be as comfortable as what we can do on this bed". Not to give too much detail but I think it's relevant given that we still have an active sex life and both still turn each other on like crazy.


----------



## HappilyMarried1

Sounds good @BurntEnds have a good time tonight. Here is a suggestion after the movie why don’t you suggest on the way home to stop by the bar for a couple of drinks before heading home just to mix things up a little. Have fun! My wife and I want to see that movie as well.


----------



## BurntEnds

HappilyMarried1 said:


> Sounds good @BurntEnds have a good time tonight. Here is a suggestion after the movie why don’t you suggest on the way home to stop by the bar for a couple of drinks before heading home just to mix things up a little. Have fun! My wife and I want to see that movie as well.


Good suggestion. The movie will be over around 1am though, and we have church in the morning (she teaches Sunday school believe it or not (she loves kids as you can probably tell my now)) so I think tonight will be a sexless night but she already proposed some "just her and I bar nights" too, so again, all good signs with her proposing new things for us. Thanks again friend!


----------



## HappilyMarried1

Sounds good maybe hit the bar for a drink before movie @BurntEnds or maybe sit in the back row at the theater and have a little fun me and wife have been know to do that before and we’ve been married for over 34 years. 🤨


----------



## oldshirt

BurntEnds said:


> Always insightful oldshirt. I really wish I knew you in real life and had you around to knock back a few beers and take in marriage advice, maybe even play a round of "snatch the pebble from my hand" with you. My marriage is nowhere close to being "safe" again, marriage never is. But your guidance has given me the right tools and the right approaches that I can use in my marriage.


I appreciate the sentiment @BurntEnds but the truth is your marital sex life is a lot more active and adventurous than mine these days. 

(And I’m glad you got the Kung Fu reference LOL).


----------



## Evinrude58

BurntEnds said:


> Valid points, which is when this last occurred was when she had "one too many" those 2 weeks ago. The most meticulous planner is no longer such a great planner when they are past the point of self control under the influence of alcohol. But as I said in the beginning phases of this thread, I'd been giving her subconscious cues that her going that far was a-okay in my book, which thanks to our "comfort/discomfort" conversations, she understands my positions now. During getting hot and heavy, *I would literally tell her things like, "sometimes I imagine you getting home late and having your brains screwed out by another man at his place"*. I think that would certainly leave any woman thinking "I think he's okay with me banging other guys". We had never visited these discussions in "the light of day" until this week. Do I think her bringing these things up during that night of concern was her planning things in her head? Absolutely. The thing is she never knew my clear boundaries because we never had those conversations. She knows now that I'm okay with her feelings attractive and good about herself while out with the gals, but that I'm totally not open with her actually getting her brains banged out at another man's place. I feel like fantasy and reality was VERY blurred in our relationship and this week has helped to clear much of it up.


yeah, you definitely said some crazy **** for a man to tell his wife in any context.
Glad you kinda figured that out. I still am kinda worried for you, with this going out stuff. But at least your wife seems to still enjoy your company and likes having sex with you, so maybe you’ll be ok.

The quote above: probAbly the craziest thing I’ve ever heard a man tell his wife, knowing she goes out to clubs with girlfriends some. Which, btw, I think is a bad idea for anyone.
Good luck


----------



## Landofblue

Was wondering how it’s going BurntEnds? Check in if you feel like it.


----------



## A18S37K14H18

Nailhead said:


> Your wife is on the slippery slope. Kick in all the free drinks one night and that will be all she wrote.


Yes she is and the OP is trying to push his wife down that slippery slope.

I mean, what could go wrong this? Right?


----------



## Divinely Favored

M


Rus47 said:


> Always wanted a '58 'vet, from time was a teenager. Now that could afford one it just makes no sense. Would just be another money pit, and I have had enough of those for this life.


My favorite was the '77 Trans Am. Yeah I'm the Smokey and the Bandit generation.


----------



## Lynnsnake

BurntEnds said:


> Hi, new member here.....concerned about a conversation I had with my wife last night so I am coming here for feedback.
> So my wife and I have been happily married for about 15 years. We have 2 kids and we have a trusting relationship with little to no bumps, just the usual nitpicky stuff here and there but nothing major. Neither of us has ever cheated on each other, however, for the majority of our marriage, we have always expressed our fantasies with one another when getting intimate. The most common fantasies have been the two of us with another man joining in (typically my fantasy) or her and another man with me in the same room watching (all her fantasy). Through the years, this has been our typical "dirty talk" and we have always discussed that it's just that and nothing more. She usually brings up, "I'm a mother and I would just feel immense shame afterwards" so there is a track record of this just being dirty talk.
> My wife goes out with her girlfriends every now and then, maybe twice a month and usually to a karaoke bar or a brewhouse. I on the other hand generally stay home with the kids and just keep to myself, I don't really have any friends and really just keep my free time confined to my family.
> Anyways, about 2 weeks ago, my wife went out with the girls and maybe had a little too much to drink as she was hungover the next day. Well last night, we were getting intimate and talking dirty. Lately she has been losing weight and started waxing "down there" and she has been feeling sexier and more confident which is something that she has always struggled with (i.e. low self esteem). Well, during our dirty talk, I asked her things like, "do you notice guys looking at you when you go out?" and she starts giggling and recounts that night 2 weeks ago and says that yes, men were looking at her that night and some even bought her drinks. During our foreplay, I tried to get more information out of her, while still in the guise of "fantasy mode" and she starts saying things like, "what would you let me do with other men?" I ask her "what do you want to do?" And she says "are you okay if I flirt with other men?" I say sure, and she asks if I am okay if a man buys her a drink and dances with her. Again, I say sure, just to gather more "now very real" information and I ask her "what else do you want to do?" To which she says "I want to kiss other men". At this point, I am alarmed, and I feel like I am much to blame given our ongoing fantasies, so after we are done being intimate, I ask her "how much of what we discussed was just fantasy?" We had a 2 hour conversation and she tells me essentially that she doesn't want to sleep with other men, that she just enjoys the confidence boost, the free drinks and likes to dance. We discuss kissing, to which I say "kissing on the mouth is basically where cheating starts". That basically caused her to sink into her shell because she knew that was the nail on the head for me. She then disagrees and says it depends on how it's done. I ask her for examples and she says a peck on the cheek as a "thanks for the dance/drink" is wholly different than a full fledged makeout session. I tell her, "would you be uncomfortable with me kissing another woman?" And she circles back to "if it's a little peck, I wouldn't care but if it was open mouth with tongue, then yeah I would be upset".
> So basically after this long discussion, we establish that a guy buying her a drink, some dancing and flirting is "fine" but that kissing is where I see the start of being unfaithful. She says the attention she gets is what causes her to come home extra frisky and is why she always wants to jump my bones lately.
> I never fell asleep, and I still have knots in my stomach just recounting the whole ordeal but really I'm just worried that this is now the beginning of a difficult to manage situation. I feel like she "has permission" to go further than she's gone before with "kissing" being the line in the sand, but I know that if it ever gets to that point, human nature is bound to throw caution to the wind and just deal with the ramifications later, especially when the types of men that are solely going to bars go to basically get laid.
> I hope I can solicit some female responses as I feel her situation is relatable. Of course, all feedback is welcome.
> -Troubled in Texas


You can benefit from her playing around. She said it makes her horny and comes home and jumps you. That’s a good start. You have fantasies of her with another man. Maybe she could introduce him to you and your fantasy can happen. Consider yourself lucky. Go for it.


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## Talker67

Cici1990 said:


> Omg.


you HAVE to give the drummer some...


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## plastow

BurntEnds said:


> Hi, new member here.....concerned about a conversation I had with my wife last night so I am coming here for feedback.
> So my wife and I have been happily married for about 15 years. We have 2 kids and we have a trusting relationship with little to no bumps, just the usual nitpicky stuff here and there but nothing major. Neither of us has ever cheated on each other, however, for the majority of our marriage, we have always expressed our fantasies with one another when getting intimate. The most common fantasies have been the two of us with another man joining in (typically my fantasy) or her and another man with me in the same room watching (all her fantasy). Through the years, this has been our typical "dirty talk" and we have always discussed that it's just that and nothing more. She usually brings up, "I'm a mother and I would just feel immense shame afterwards" so there is a track record of this just being dirty talk.
> My wife goes out with her girlfriends every now and then, maybe twice a month and usually to a karaoke bar or a brewhouse. I on the other hand generally stay home with the kids and just keep to myself, I don't really have any friends and really just keep my free time confined to my family.
> Anyways, about 2 weeks ago, my wife went out with the girls and maybe had a little too much to drink as she was hungover the next day. Well last night, we were getting intimate and talking dirty. Lately she has been losing weight and started waxing "down there" and she has been feeling sexier and more confident which is something that she has always struggled with (i.e. low self esteem). Well, during our dirty talk, I asked her things like, "do you notice guys looking at you when you go out?" and she starts giggling and recounts that night 2 weeks ago and says that yes, men were looking at her that night and some even bought her drinks. During our foreplay, I tried to get more information out of her, while still in the guise of "fantasy mode" and she starts saying things like, "what would you let me do with other men?" I ask her "what do you want to do?" And she says "are you okay if I flirt with other men?" I say sure, and she asks if I am okay if a man buys her a drink and dances with her. Again, I say sure, just to gather more "now very real" information and I ask her "what else do you want to do?" To which she says "I want to kiss other men". At this point, I am alarmed, and I feel like I am much to blame given our ongoing fantasies, so after we are done being intimate, I ask her "how much of what we discussed was just fantasy?" We had a 2 hour conversation and she tells me essentially that she doesn't want to sleep with other men, that she just enjoys the confidence boost, the free drinks and likes to dance. We discuss kissing, to which I say "kissing on the mouth is basically where cheating starts". That basically caused her to sink into her shell because she knew that was the nail on the head for me. She then disagrees and says it depends on how it's done. I ask her for examples and she says a peck on the cheek as a "thanks for the dance/drink" is wholly different than a full fledged makeout session. I tell her, "would you be uncomfortable with me kissing another woman?" And she circles back to "if it's a little peck, I wouldn't care but if it was open mouth with tongue, then yeah I would be upset".
> So basically after this long discussion, we establish that a guy buying her a drink, some dancing and flirting is "fine" but that kissing is where I see the start of being unfaithful. She says the attention she gets is what causes her to come home extra frisky and is why she always wants to jump my bones lately.
> I never fell asleep, and I still have knots in my stomach just recounting the whole ordeal but really I'm just worried that this is now the beginning of a difficult to manage situation. I feel like she "has permission" to go further than she's gone before with "kissing" being the line in the sand, but I know that if it ever gets to that point, human nature is bound to throw caution to the wind and just deal with the ramifications later, especially when the types of men that are solely going to bars go to basically get laid.
> I hope I can solicit some female responses as I feel her situation is relatable. Of course, all feedback is welcome.
> -Troubled in Texas


she told you about the kissing in retrospect,she has already done it and is trying to find out just how far you will agree to let her have her head so to speak.stop it now she is on a dangerous path


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## HappilyMarried1

Any update @BurntEnds on how things are going for you and the wife?


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## thunderchad

You have a fantasy of her ****ing other men and you've been planting it in her mind forever. Now that she wants to you're pissed.

I would not allow the "girls nights out" and flirting or anything even remotely inappropriate.


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## Talker67

thunderchad said:


> You have a fantasy of her ****ing other men and you've been planting it in her mind forever. Now that she wants to you're pissed.
> 
> I would not allow the "girls nights out" and flirting or anything even remotely inappropriate.


once you groom your wife to be a hot wife, you can not then turn around and tell her NO when she starts screwing new guys! You put the idea into her mind. You made her get horny over it. You likely found guys for her to chat with. THEN you get all pissy because she slips out and does it without you in the room to jerk off to it. 

Grow a pair. You made your choice, now see it thru to some conclusion.

Your only hope now is she does a few men, and is not all that interested in it, and decides to not do it any more. On the other hand, if the bedroom had been dead up to now....you are going to have a big problem when she starts getting pounded with hot monkey sex


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