# Am I just a fool or is this a normal phase for the betrayer?



## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

I worry I am opening myself up to even more hurt rather than doing the right thing by trying. 

So he said he was coming back, he was breaking it off and bringing his stuff back to our house. He even told my 17 year old this. 

So then he stayed here overnight after he and I and the 17 year old had dinner and watched a movie. Early in the morning, he was lying very close to me, carressing me and seeming like he really wanted to make love but kept stopping himself. 

The next morning he goes and says he is going to get his stuff and do the deed of breaking it off. He is gone for like an hour when I get a call from my friend--- he has called her husband and asked if he could have a few days to figure stuff out but she didn't want to say yes if I was uncomfortable with it. I lost it. 

I called him and told him he was coming back today or not at all. I couldn't deal and our children couldn't deal with several more days of wondering if daddy was staying and working on our marriage or not. I mean, geesh, I put myself OUT there, and this is what he does? So again, he chose us and came back. 

We spent the day together, with him and I taking a long walk and having a very honest discussion about what had happened, each of our parts in letting the marriage get in such a poor state and vowing to try and do some things better. He seemed sincerely sorry. 

So this morning, he tells me he doesn't know if he can do this, he still has feelings for this woman, and he is so uncomfortable with me right now (um duh... why wouldn't you be?) I was flabbergasted... I mean, what the heck, we told the girls yesterday (11 and 12) that we were going to try and this morning he is saying he doesn't KNOW if he can go through with trying?? 

I mean, I am completely stunned at the extreme level of selfishness he is displaying.... REALLY?? Your FEELINGS are more important than the commitment you made to your wife of 23 years and your three children who you have just taken through the worst weekend of their lives??? 

And DUH... you see this woman with no strings or responsibilities attached for a few hours a week and you have FEELINGS for her... how f-ing easy is that, no kids, no house, no bills, no stress... nothing but fun and sex. Is his head up his ass? Did an alien take his brain? How could he even KNOW what he feels for someone under those circumstances... the hard **** happens HERE at HOME. 

And lastly, I finally got him to tell me who it was, and it is SO humiliating... it is the sister of of the guy from one of our couples friends we regularly hung out with.. so I guess I was the last to know. 

Should I just tell him to go or is this see saw thing normal at this stage for the WS? Help me. 

Oh and before he left for work I did tell him that I was over the top stunned that he could be as selfish as he was being after telling both me and the girls we were going to try that he would even consider going back on that only 12 hours later because he still has some fee fees for his f--ing *****. OMG


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## girlfromipanema (Aug 26, 2011)

Totally normal behavior from your H, unfortunately. Strap yourself in for a ride you can't believe. I am very impressed with how you are handling yourself. Continue to show your strength. Wishing you peace.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

for starters you should have told him that if he was going over there for closure then it was over- he needs to end contact by mail or email and never see or speak to her again.


To be honest, he's behaving exactly like my father did in his infidelity and despite his promises to me and my mother he continued his affair for 5 years until my mother's death.


I'll reiterate what I said in the last thread (just a suggestion, keep this all in one thread as it's easier for us to follow)


1) go see a lawyer- you still need to know your options and consider getting a post-nup. Also having the papers in front of him give him a real life indicator of how serious you are.

2) use spy tech, from the sounds of it your husband will likely try to take the affair more "underground"

3) tell him to sh!t or get off the pot- he needs to agree to the following or else you file-

a) No Contact with OW, no closure, no nothin', if she contacts him he must ignore it and tell you about it right away. Have him write a NC letter (we have one here as an example) and send it by certified mail to the OW.
b) He must be completely transparent- all passwords freely given, allow you access to his phone, etc. At the same time you should verify thru spying methods.
c) He must show true remorse. He must do the heavy lifting and take 100% of the blame of the affair. He must always answer all of your questions, repeatedly if necessary, and never protect the OW.


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> for starters you should have told him that if he was going over there for closure then it was over- he needs to end contact by mail or email and never see or speak to her again.
> 
> 
> To be honest, he's behaving exactly like my father did in his infidelity and despite his promises to me and my mother he continued his affair for 5 years until my mother's death.
> ...


I am doing all of the above... I have a lawyer appointment today. I am just struggling... if he is coming back to me ONLY for guilt reasons, I don't know if I want it. But on the other hand he is clearly in a fog about the reality of his relationship with the OW. He really went there because he also had to get all his clothing in stuff... when I kicked him out he moved there.


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

girlfromipanema said:


> Totally normal behavior from your H, unfortunately. Strap yourself in for a ride you can't believe. I am very impressed with how you are handling yourself. Continue to show your strength. Wishing you peace.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe I am just a fool.. I don't know. I still think somewhere in there he loves me... he really really was struggling not to make love to me the first night back... but I will never be able to complete with the kind of exciting and uninhibited (by daily life) sex he was getting from here and that terrifies me.

Also, do you think I should go to IC as well as our MC?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

There's a big difference between guilt and remorse- it is up to you to decide if you want to be the 2nd choice and hope he emerges from his fog

tread cautiously
if he can maintain no contact for a while he MIGHT emerge from the fog but unless he starts to show signs of true remorse, you will have no healing and proper R


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## girlfromipanema (Aug 26, 2011)

I'm on my phone so I can't respond as well as I'd like, but I highly recommend IC. 
You've experienced a horrific trauma.

You are not a fool. You're really handling yourself exactly as you should, based on what I've read on your other thread. Your H is deep in withdrawal and"fog". He's probably unrecognizable to you. Keep standing firm. Do not waver. Affair recovery is HARD. I've read it takes 2 to 5 years truly recover.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

lisa3girls said:


> but I will never be able to complete with the kind of exciting and uninhibited (by daily life) sex he was getting from here and that terrifies me.
> 
> Also, do you think I should go to IC as well as our MC?


I felt the same way and my confidence was shot to hell for a long time- my best advice is that if you R is that you just jump into the sex. Many of us do that anyways and it's called hysterical bonding and it can actually help R when the other signs are there.


yes IC is a good idea, and in both situations shop around and find a good one


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

The humiliation continues... all of our couples friends knew... I just spoke to my husbands friend whose sister is the OW. Apparently nobody has been realling 'talking' to him anymore as they were so devestated on my behalf that he'd be doing this. 

And get this... the OW, she just went through a divorce for the same reason.. her husband had an affair on her and she went through exactly what I am going through... can you believe it?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Lisa--he is behaving completely normal for a wayward and is following The Script to a tee.

You have to stand firm and draw a firm line and not back down from it. 

Tough love, baby. Tell him, "Either you end the affair, or there is no marriage. This is non-negotiable. I will not stand in your way if you decide you want out, but I also deserve better and will not live in an open marriage where there is a third party. I will not be in limbo."

OW's divorce could have been because of her affair with your husband... Just saying.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

lisa3girls said:


> The humiliation continues... all of our couples friends knew... I just spoke to my husbands friend whose sister is the OW. Apparently nobody has been realling 'talking' to him anymore as they were so devestated on my behalf that he'd be doing this.
> 
> And get this... the OW, she just went through a divorce for the same reason.. her husband had an affair on her and she went through exactly what I am going through... can you believe it?


Yes, this is awful. The humiliation is always the worst, when you find out that 'everyone else knew'...kind of blows away trust on every level. Well, I hope you get through this, all the best to you.


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## HerToo (Oct 3, 2011)

He's got a real bad case of the fog. I'm still fighting mine, and there are days that I doubt my efforts to stay with my wife. This forum helps me each day. That and IC.

If you haven't heard a loud popping sound yet, you will. That's when his head pops out of his rear and looks at the reality of what he created.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

Jellybeans said:


> OW's divorce could have been because of her affair with your husband... Just saying.


Agree with JB, wondering if it's true that the OW's husband had the affair. We know how some cheaters love to tarnish their loyal spouse reputation. Guess it depends on the source of information.

Even if it is true, it's not uncommon. Our MC told us about a woman (she didn't name her) who's husband cheated, left her, then divorced. The woman then proceeded to pursue a married man, because she felt justified since it was done to her. She also wanted to prove she could win a married man for the ego stroke. Our MC gave it as an example of how you can never tell in which way an affair will affect people mentally. They can grow and better themselves or sink to new depths with their justifications.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Its not uncommon for the OW or OM to have been cheated on before, especially in a marriage. Ironic as that sounds. We see it all the time on these threads.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Its not uncommon for the OW or OM to have been cheated on before, especially in a marriage. Ironic as that sounds. We see it all the time on these threads.


It's true. When I was young, my kid's father cheated...I embarked on a series of revenge f&cks, simply to prove that I could. Not something I'm proud of, but then, it was 20 years ago, and I'm not the same person at all anymore.


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

Saffron said:


> Agree with JB, wondering if it's true that the OW's husband had the affair. We know how some cheaters love to tarnish their loyal spouse reputation. Guess it depends on the source of information.
> 
> Even if it is true, it's not uncommon. Our MC told us about a woman (she didn't name her) who's husband cheated, left her, then divorced. The woman then proceeded to pursue a married man, because she felt justified since it was done to her. She also wanted to prove she could win a married man for the ego stroke. Our MC gave it as an example of how you can never tell in which way an affair will affect people mentally. They can grow and better themselves or sink to new depths with their justifications.


Oh, it is true, I found it out from her brother who used to be my husband's friend. He was devestated on my behalf and no longer speaks to my husband nor his sister.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

lisa3girls said:


> Oh, it is true, I found it out from her brother who used to be my husband's friend. He was devestated on my behalf and no longer speaks to my husband nor his sister.


Ahhhhh, so she's taken the path of sinking to the cheater's level and probably feels justified in her actions. Absolutely sick. After being the BS, I can't imagine becoming the OW. She's either always been selfish or her husband's affair has helped transfom her into a selfish being. So sorry you're having to go through this, having your husband waffle on R must add to your devastation. Stay strong and know you have our support!


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I wouldn't believe a word he said right now Lisa. The waffling and back and forth is par for the course unfortunately for you and the girls. He's not to be trusted.

Focus on yourself and your girls. IMO he's not ready to stop what he's doing and really recommit to you or your family 100%. It's what he *does* and not what he *says* that matters now.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Ive seen a bunch of threads that you have authored Lisa, Im sorry I haven't been able to read them all... So I may have missed the answer to this question if you have answered it already....

What do you want ? 

If it's possible, Do you genuinely want to save this marriage at all costs?


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Ive seen a bunch of threads that you have authored Lisa, Im sorry I haven't been able to read them all... So I may have missed the answer to this question if you have answered it already....
> 
> What do you want ?
> 
> If it's possible, Do you genuinely want to save this marriage at all costs?


I want to try... I want to feel like I tried to do everything I could to save it. I really still do love him and a part of me feels for his internal struggles. I am not saying that I blame myself for the affair-- there was no excuse for that, but I do admit to having a part in letting our marriage get to where it was. As does he... I guess I'd like to try counseling and see if we can even remotely make it work.

And, even if it doesn't, I feel it might help up amicably raise the girls even if we divorce which right now I don't think I can do.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Lisa, you need to demand he does the right thing, and not negotiate a half return.


Be nasty, be strong, be demanding. It is you and his family, or this OW. He leaves her, feels crappy, and move on with you, OR he leaves for good. It is not ok to have you compete for your spouses affection or loyalty. If they can give it to you, then leave for good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

lisa3girls said:


> I want to try... I want to feel like I tried to do everything I could to save it. I really still do love him and a part of me feels for his internal struggles.


This will take an extraordinary amount of strength and perseverance on your part but If you are commited to recovering your marriage, your going to have to remove yourself as an option.

When performed with conviction, "the takeaway" compels the DS to move off the fence and either head towards genuine reconcilation or gets the DS to commit to the pursuit of the fantasy. 

Yopu have to get him off the fence. Threats, manipulation and guilt trips will not do this. He must be compelled by your actions. NOT WORDS. Action. Removing yourself as an option is one of the most powerful tools you have at your disposal. But it can not be done halway. 

The "Take Away" acts on a person's inherent need to possess something before it is gone. One of the prime human motivations to take action is the fear of loss. 

Your husband is an addict. Your not going to "talk" that fear into him

I'm sure you have heard the term "scared straight" ? 

Your are going to have to have the strength to play hardball.


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## Lookingforclosure (Oct 24, 2011)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> This will take an extraordinary amount of strength and perseverance on your part but If you are commited to recovering your marriage, your going to have to remove yourself as an option.
> 
> When performed with conviction, "the takeaway" compels the DS to move off the fence and either head towards genuine reconcilation or gets the DS to commit to the pursuit of the fantasy.
> 
> ...



:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Lisa, I'm so sorry for what you are going through, you are getting very good advice here, as far as the OW goes isn't it unbelievable that someone who went through the pain of an affair is willing to cause it to someone else? This is something I will never understand! A few years ago I had a relationship with a guy where the OW had been cheated on as well non the less she caused me the same pain, our friends also knew about it and instead of telling me what was going on they just told me to "move on" they wanted to "spare me", like if is possible be spare from such hurt! He told me how much he loved me, wanted me, I was the best, wanted to work it out and all the script...He ended up marrying the OW.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Saffron said:


> Ahhhhh, so she's taken the path of sinking to the cheater's level and probably feels justified in her actions. Absolutely sick. After being the BS, I can't imagine becoming the OW.





Lookingforclosure said:


> as far as the OW goes isn't it unbelievable that someone who went through the pain of an affair is willing to cause it to someone else? This is something I will never understand!


For lack of a better way of explaining this, you can't understand or imagine this because you are "sober"... 

Never say never. This OW doesn't feel 'justified' and she's not thinking of the pain she went through herself or the pain she is putting someone else through... 

I doubt she is thinking anything at all. 

She is high as a kite. Dopamine induced stuper. She just wants to stay high and any unnessasary guilt or thinking that threatens her euporia is quickly and easily pushed aside.


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## Lookingforclosure (Oct 24, 2011)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> For lack of a better way of explaining this, you can't understand or imagine this because you are "sober"...
> 
> Never say never. This OW doesn't feel 'justified' and she's not thinking of the pain she went through herself or the pain she is putting someone else through...
> 
> ...



Thank so much for posting this Pit. Great post and amazing info! You have no idea how much better this makes me feel, until now I have always thought it must have been me, that it was all my fault, this brings a whole new perspective, I don't need to take it personally anymore!

I see my ex on all of it the denial, rationalization, fog talk...

He went as far as suggest that we could all be friends, he and the OW invited me to their wedding and couldn't possible understand why I wasn't going or why I was so hurt! At some point I questioned my sanity as I couldn't possible understand after the devastation and pain they caused in my life how they were so happy and acted like I was the one being irrational!


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

lisa you are getting good advice as to how to go about R, or at least the best chance for it if it's at all possible. He definitely has to show genuine remorse which is the heavy emotional lifting for him because he has to detach from his addiction, which means no contact with her, full exposure, and full transparency, just like Almost Recovered suggested. If he loves you he will make it happen, if he fails you have to have papers ready and cut him off hard, and be ready to let him go (which is the heavy emotional lifting for you).


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## Why Not Be Happy? (Apr 16, 2010)

any updates?


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

Why Not Be Happy? said:


> any updates?


Thinking of you Lisa - hope all is well!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

He is gone.... even after he told the children we'd try and even after we made an appointment for marriage counseling, he wouldn't go. He has gone back to her. I am devastated and relieved at the same time... I deserve better.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

lisa3girls said:


> I deserve better.



damn straight


guess you'll be moving on to the divorce forum, sorry that you had to come here first


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

lisa3girls said:


> He is gone.... even after he told the children we'd try and even after we made an appointment for marriage counseling, he wouldn't go. He has gone back to her. I am devastated and relieved at the same time... I deserve better.


You do deserve much better. Most men on here would be happy as hell with a wife who puts as much effort into a marriage as you do.


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## Lookingforclosure (Oct 24, 2011)

lisa3girls said:


> He is gone.... even after he told the children we'd try and even after we made an appointment for marriage counseling, he wouldn't go. He has gone back to her. I am devastated and relieved at the same time... I deserve better.


Lisa, I'm so sorry. You do deserve better and you will find a good man you will respect you, love you and treat you as you deserve. Stay strong and take good care of yourself. Hugs


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Buckle your seatbelt. Infidelity is a process it's not an event. After the first gut wrenching drop things slow down and its feels like its all coming to an end.. it's not, its slowed because it's climbing another hill. It's a roller coaster.


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## Why Not Be Happy? (Apr 16, 2010)

Thinking of you-----


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

lisa3girls said:


> He is gone.... even after he told the children we'd try and even after we made an appointment for marriage counseling, he wouldn't go. He has gone back to her. I am devastated and relieved at the same time... I deserve better.


You DO deserve better. I'm sorry that you're having to go through this. 

File for divorce. You still have time to call it off if he changes his mind and decides to treat you well. If he doesn't, you and your kids will be okay without him. I know this must hurt like hell, but, at least you're not in limbo with uncertainty hanging over your head.

You seem like a really strong person and I'm glad you are realizing that you deserve better than to have to plead or chase him. Hang in there.


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