# Hello... help



## Daisy2714

Hello. I'm not sure where to begin. I suppose I could start by saying that I've been married to a good man for 23 years (next month). He's a hard worker. He's never been unfaithful. He's never been abusive. He loves our children and has been a good father. I love him.

I want to separate. Not divorce. Just live apart with separate lives. I cannot even remember how long it's been since I last felt cherished, loved, respected, valued. I live in a constant state of sadness and resentment. 

Everyone thinks we are perfect. We have 5 kids (all grown, all successful), 6 grandkids, and two on the way. I wouldn't describe either of us as co-dependent. Neither of us smoke, we both drink socially but not excessively. Neither of us gamble. We share the same faith in God, but differ in our political views.

Neither of us ever really achieved our potential in careers but we have done okay. We have been excellent business partners and excellent parenting partners. We have failed as friends. We have failed as lovers. 

I know that if I leave him, I will be the "black sheep" so to speak. This is not new. I have spent so many years trying to build a relationship with him, I'm just tired. I don't even WANT to try anymore. 

And yet... here I am. Trying again. One last effort to save this. Even my idea of separating rather than divorce is due to my hope that perhaps we would be better friends than we are now. 

Is this familiar? Please give me good news. Please tell me it's not too late to want to build a relationship with a good man.

I don't know what else to say. Thanks for listening.


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## EleGirl

You are not too late to build a good relationship with a good man. 

Have you told him how unhappy you are?

What kinds of things have you done in the past to try to turn things around?


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## Daisy2714

Of course. Many times in many ways. It's not that we haven't talked about it. It's that talking about it hasn't changed anything. 

As far what things I've done... I don't even know how to answer that. I've been the sort of wife I think he wants. We are both good about giving each other freedom to pursue other interests. In 2010 I had reached a point of giving up and as a last ditch effort I surprised him with a 7 day cruise. I figured that if our marriage was going to end we could at least have that one good memory to take away. We had a wonderful time. He was in shock and for a few months, things were a little better between us. Those few months weren't long enough. I can't even say that he really cherished me then. Just that he was happier and felt closer to me. That, in turn, made me happy.

Since then, I've just gotten sadder and sadder as I see no real hope for us. Now I am just out of ideas. We went to counseling once about 15 years ago. It was an awful experience and did more harm and no good. 

He told me the other day that he wants to look into getting marriage counseling and I didn't respond. The thing is, I don't. I'm just tired. I don't trust that he means it. I think it's just meant to be a distraction to keep me from leaving. 

I don't even understand anymore why he is hanging on. He's not happy. I'm not happy. He would truly be so much happier if I weren't in the picture. At least, that's how I see it.


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## EleGirl

There is a study that I read recently. They followed couples for several years who said that they were very unhappy in their marriages. Five years later, 85% of the unhappy couples self reported as happy with their marriage. That's a huge turn around.

If he wants to go to counseling I highly encourage that you go too. I know that you are not happy right now. But you have the basis of being very happy as you have a good husband to start with.

How many hours a week do the two of you spend together, just the two of you, doing date-like things together? Things where you focus on each other and you both enjoy?


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## Daisy2714

Thanks for the input Ele. I've heard those stats also. We don't spend any time together having fun... zero. Everything we do or talk about is surface stuff. It's the stuff that makes our world function. It's the kids, the money, the to-do list, responsibilities, our relationship, etc. That has been a major issue. 

This is what is so sad. We know what the issues are. He's a good man and I'm a good woman. We just don't seem to be good for each other. He manages to have fun with just about anyone except me. When it comes to me, he's at a loss... and I'm just tired. I'm too tired to want to try anymore. 

I feel like I am sitting on the floor at the table hoping for scraps of his attention. I used to beg for those scraps and now I've stopped begging. What's really scaring me is that I'm not even terribly interested anymore. 

Over the past week, he has taken to sending me text messages with pictures of the kids. As if to remind me of good times we've had as a family. Or perhaps to make me feel guilty if I leave. Either way, I actually resent it. I'm just finally at a point that I really just don't want to try anymore.

Is this confusing? I'm trying to be clear and yet I know that just being here and asking for help is a contradiction to me saying that I don't want to try. I simply don't know how else to express myself here.


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## accept

The problem is you dont seem to put your finger on exactly what you want from him. This makes him frustrated and worse.
You say he is at a loss and can be fun with others. This sounds like you are the problem. Think about that. 
I am sure that even if you left you would still go back to him. You admire his qualities and you wont find them easily elsewhere. 
Give him a chance.


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## 2galsmom

If you have been married that long and he is a good man with no infidelities or abuse, you are TRULY blessed. How will separation help your fun or loneliness? It seems like he is trying to make an effort and perhaps he does have fun with you.

I hope you get the help you need through counseling or going on a trip together, I would not be quick to throw that all away because it is not "what it could be."


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## Daisy2714

accept said:


> The problem is you dont seem to put your finger on exactly what you want from him. This makes him frustrated and worse.
> You say he is at a loss and can be fun with others. This sounds like you are the problem. Think about that.
> I am sure that even if you left you would still go back to him. You admire his qualities and you wont find them easily elsewhere.
> Give him a chance.


Wow... nice to meet you to. I've written three or four paragraphs about my life and you make judgments and assumptions. Believe me when I say that I do put my finger on it and I have given him a chance. It's nearing 23 years of chances. Our problem didn't just begin and there are two people in this equation. Two people who are part of the problem and two people who need to be part of the solution. 

Also, don't assume you know me enough to say that I would or would not go back to him. This is not a game to me. This is my life. I do not take this decision lightly. There are qualities about my husband I do admire. As I said in my first post, he is a good man. I do love him. I don't want this. There are qualities I dislike about him. I'm sure I'll get to those but in introducing myself, I wanted to let you all know he is a good person. I haven't ready many of the posts here but I can imagine that some people here have dealt with very dysfunctional relationships involving things such as infidelities, alcoholism, abuse. I wanted to let you know that this is not that sort of situation. I would rather focus on the good things than the bad.



2galsmom said:


> If you have been married that long and he is a good man with no infidelities or abuse, you are TRULY blessed. How will separation help your fun or loneliness? It seems like he is trying to make an effort and perhaps he does have fun with you.
> 
> I hope you get the help you need through counseling or going on a trip together, I would not be quick to throw that all away because it is not "what it could be."


Galsmom, I know I'm blessed. Believe me. He is trying to make an effort. As I said for the past week he's been trying to make an effort. The sad thing to me is that this is the same song and dance we've danced for 23 years. Nothing is different except for one thing. I really am at a point that his effort is not working now. 

When he calls me to talk, he only talks about himself. He doesn't ask me about me. It's like he forgets I have a life and all that matters is what is going on in his life. If he needs something, he lets me know and I take care of it for him.

In regard to your suggestion about a trip together, I already tried that. Read my earlier post. We've also been to counseling and it actually did more harm than good. I don't think I'm being "quick" in throwing it out. I've been dealing with this for 23 years now. I'm not one of the 85% who is happier after five years.

As far as what I hope for in separating, I think I'm still hoping for a better relationship with him. There isn't another man in the picture. Far from it. I LOVE my husband. There isn't anyone else I want to replace him with. Him and I tend to get along much better when we are separate than when we are together. 

Case in point, one of the many hats my husband wears is military. He's been a reservist for 27 years. We both come from strong military backgrounds. He loves his life in the military and as a reservist, he loves when he is called to active duty. As in right now. 

My husband left a week ago for an extended stay in the middle east. He has talked to me more in the past week than he has in the past month while he was home. He's happy. Much more so than when we are together. He's doing his thing and life is good. He knows our relationship is in serious trouble. 

Before he left, we talked.... again. We both said we think the time apart will be good for us. It at least gives us a break from the constant sadness, frustration, and resentment. 

I know the way he deals with things. He buries his head in the sand and hopes that when he comes up for air everything will be okay. I know that's what he is expecting when he gets back to the states. A part of me wants it to be that simple. Another part of me has been here enough times to know that I just don't want to stay on this merry-go-round any longer. 

When he calls me now, it actually irritates me. That's never happened before. Before, I've always looked forward to hearing from him. I've had hope. This time, I don't. This time I just want him to get to the part where he gives me his to-do list and quits rattling on so I can get off the phone. Right now, that is the most heart-breaking realization. I feel like I'm past hope.

Thanks for your input. 

To everyone reading this. I'm here for help. I'm here hoping someone out there can relate to what I'm saying and give me practical hope again. Maybe it is too late. Maybe it's not. If I can't find help here... I'll go. 

I'm NOT here to be judged. I will happily answer questions and give you as much information as you need to help me. Just ask. However, please do not point fingers at me with just two (or even ten) minutes of my heart revealed to you. 

Thanks again.


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## accept1

I am sorry if you feel judged. I can only go by what you write here, I dont know you. I am not a paid counsellor who has to sweet talk you otherwise you wont come back and provide me with more fees. I go by what I read in your post and also by what I read between the lines. You have not really replied to what I wrote, therefore I cant say much further. People are not that different and I write from my own experience although i agree this may not apply to you.


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## javawave

You wrote that things were better after the cruise. You wrote he is talking of counseling but you are tired and not interested. You also wrote he is happy and has fun with everyone else. It does take two to make it work. It appears you are struggling with being part of that "two". 

Counseling can make it worse in the beginning. You have to uncover the issues and acknowledge them before you can fix them. That is hard to do. It sounds like you have to decide if you are going to try or not. Past attempts are no guarantee of the future good or bad. A separation will only drive you apart. Not bring you together. 

Good luck on finding your answers. Indecision is as stressful as it gets.


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## Daisy2714

accept said:


> The problem is you dont seem to put your finger on exactly what you want from him. This makes him frustrated and worse.
> You say he is at a loss and can be fun with others. This sounds like you are the problem. Think about that.
> I am sure that even if you left you would still go back to him. You admire his qualities and you wont find them easily elsewhere.
> Give him a chance.


I did reply to this. I let you know that I have, on many occasions, put my finger on it. If you have a question, I missed it. Please re-phrase. 
What I read here is that I'm the problem and I should think about that. I also read that you have assumed what my actions might be if/when I leave. I responded to that also. 

Please re-phrase and tell me what it is I have missed. I will be happy to clarify.



accept1 said:


> I am sorry if you feel judged. I can only go by what you write here, I dont know you. I am not a paid counsellor who has to sweet talk you otherwise you wont come back and provide me with more fees. I go by what I read in your post and also by what I read between the lines. You have not really replied to what I wrote, therefore I cant say much further. People are not that different and I write from my own experience although i agree this may not apply to you.


It is the very fact that none of you are paid that brings me here. I realize this is not professional counseling but I have more faith in the counsel of all of you (collectively as a group), than I do in any paid professional. If my reply to your first post was not adequate in your opinion, then perhaps you really can't say much further.

I trust/hope that you were trying to help and I thank you for that.

My best regards to you.


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## accept1

''The problem is you dont seem to put your finger on exactly what you want from him. This makes him frustrated and worse.'''

You may have put your finger on it but have you explained to him exactly what you want. Is he capable of delivering.

''''You say he is at a loss and can be fun with others. This sounds like you are the problem. Think about that. ''''

I dont see that you replied to that.

The previous poster. I dont think counselling is necessary here. You know exactly what you want. The problem seems to be that your husband doesnt.


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## Daisy2714

javawave said:


> It appears you are struggling with being part of that "two".
> 
> You have to uncover the issues and acknowledge them before you can fix them. That is hard to do. It sounds like you have to decide if you are going to try or not.


Hello. yes. that is exactly what I'm struggling with. For the first time, I'm actually at a point that I'm not sure I want to try anymore. And yet, here I am.... still trying... still making another attempt to find some way to save us. 

Introspection is not a problem. We can freely talk about the issues. It's the fixing them that we can't seem to do. Either of us.


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## lifeistooshort

Two things occur to me after reading your posts. First is are you sure he doesn't have someone else? It would explain why you've been such good friends and business partners but had poor intimacy. Think carefully before you answer that one. Second is that there may be some correlation between his small efforts and your ceasing to respond, but that's likely to keep you around as opposed to actually trying to make you happy. You claim he's not happy but how do you know that? It could be that he is in fact happy, or at least content, with how things are, esp if he's got someone else on the side. I suspect the odds of anything really changing are not very good, but I suppose you could give counseling a try to see if a compromise can be reached. Eventually you're probably going to have to decide if you can forge your own life within this marriage or just end it. Don't worry about being the black sheep, this is your life to live and no one elses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Daisy2714

accept1 said:


> You may have put your finger on it but have you explained to him exactly what you want. Is he capable of delivering.
> 
> ''''You say he is at a loss and can be fun with others. This sounds like you are the problem. Think about that. ''''
> 
> I dont see that you replied to that.
> 
> The previous poster. I dont think counselling is necessary here. You know exactly what you want. The problem seems to be that your husband doesnt.


Hello again. 

"Have you explained to him exactly what you want."

Yes. Very clearly, many, many times.

"Is he capable of delivering?"

Obviously, I expect he should be.

"You say he is at a loss and can be fun with others."

By this I mean that he can, at a moment's notice, drop everything (me included), to go out with one of our sons, his mother, his brother, co-worker, pastor, etc, and have a great time for hours. Yet when it comes to spending time together with me, the only thing he can think of to do together is functional stuff. A 'date' for us is dinner out where we sit with uncomfortable periods of silence and staring at each other and our menues. We will interupt that with talk about the kids, his job, my job, and what we will do together "someday" when abc happens or xyz happens. Someday never really arrives, we just talk about it. He comes up with all kinds of fun ideas to do with the kids or grand-kids. Expecting him to come up with a fun idea for the two of us brings an empty promise and a blank stare. We fall back on watching a movie at home together where he promptly falls asleep five minutes into it. I end up watching a movie I didn't choose, and don't even like, while he snores and sleeps peacefully where he happens to be. The next day he will apologize and feel bad about it but it doesn't change. 

"This sounds like you are the problem. Think about that."

there are two people in this equation. Two people who are part of the problem and two people who need to be part of the solution.

"I don't think counselling is necessary here. You know exactly what you want. The problem seems to be that your husband doesn't."

I agree with this. Counseling is sometimes helpful. I don't think prof marriage counseling would be in our case. I think perhaps individual counseling might me. I suppose that's why I'm here. As far as your idea that my husband doesn't know what I want, he does. As I've said already, we've talked about it many times. He's even acknowledged it and sometimes tries to work on it. It never lasts.


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## accept1

ok 
One simple question which I was trying to ask all the time but you never seemed to understand it.

How do you explain like you rightly say he can be fun and the type of fun you would like, with everyone else and not you.

Is it he doing it specially or doesnt he know how to with you.


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## Daisy2714

lifeistooshort said:


> Two things occur to me after reading your posts. First is are you sure he doesn't have someone else? It would explain why you've been such good friends and business partners but had poor intimacy. Think carefully before you answer that one. Second is that there may be some correlation between his small efforts and your ceasing to respond, but that's likely to keep you around as opposed to actually trying to make you happy. You claim he's not happy but how do you know that? It could be that he is in fact happy, or at least content, with how things are, esp if he's got someone else on the side. I suspect the odds of anything really changing are not very good, but I suppose you could give counseling a try to see if a compromise can be reached. Eventually you're probably going to have to decide if you can forge your own life within this marriage or just end it. Don't worry about being the black sheep, this is your life to live and no one elses.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hello. Thank you for your thoughtful questions. I'll do my best to answer them. 

First, am I sure there's no one else? To answer that I would have to say I am as sure as anyone can be. You can never be 100% sure of something like that but as much as I know my husband, I will say it would shock me to the same degree it might shock me to find out he had molested our daughter. He's simply not motivated enough to spend the energy on an affair. 

For the next part, I think I need to correct your wording if you will permit me. We haven't been good friends. We have been good business partners and good parents together. We are amiable as friends but not what I would call friends. 

Regarding his small efforts, I agree with this statement. Regarding whether or not he is happy, you could be right. He may be very happy although I only see it when he is in the company of others or when he is away from me. I do think he is content with the status quo... enough to not put effort into making it better. That is not the same thing as happy. 

Eventually you're probably going to have to decide if you can forge your own life within this marriage or just end it. Don't worry about being the black sheep, this is your life to live and no one elses.

This is where I'm at. 

Thanks again.


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## Daisy2714

accept1 said:


> ok
> One simple question which I was trying to ask all the time but you never seemed to understand it.
> 
> How do you explain like you rightly say he can be fun and the type of fun you would like, with everyone else and not you.
> 
> Is it he doing it specially or doesn't he know how to with you.


Again... yes, I have. Yes, he knows. He takes me for granted. He makes promises and then something, or someone, more important comes along and he breaks his promises. 

Let me try to give you an example.

We've know he would be leaving for the middle east since Feb of this year. Obviously, there are lots of preparations to do for a separation like this. Things that are important to him to be dealt with and things that are important to me, and things that are important to his primary job and also to the military. 

Through my husbands job, he gets personal day and vacation days, etc. Throughout this year, there have been three times that I've asked him to please take a day or even a half-day from work to spend with me. His response on all three occasions was to tell me he had already used up all of his time. 

Imagine my surprise and hurt when he took personal time since then on four different occasions. Personal time that he claims he didn't know he had. None of those occasions where spent with me. I was at work while he spent the time either with his brother, our son, and on two of those days, with my father and step-mom. 

Now I know my husband enough to know that he keeps track of his personal and vacation time. I don't believe for a minute that he was honest with me when telling me that he had used up all of his time. It's just that spending that time with me wasn't his priority. 

Here's another example... this one has happened over and over and over again. 

We had been planning to go out on a date for four or five days. I had been looking forward to it. About 4 hours before we were supposed to go out, I got a call from him cancelling. I can't even remember what his excuse was. 

About an hour later, I got a call from my son asking me to babysit our little grand-daughter so he, his brother, and my husband could go golfing together. 

Can you imagine how that made me feel? If you can't, there is nothing else you can say to help me.

As to whether or not he does this on purpose, you are asking the wrong person. Only he could answer that.


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## lifeistooshort

Daisy2714 said:


> Hello. Thank you for your thoughtful questions. I'll do my best to answer them.
> 
> First, am I sure there's no one else? To answer that I would have to say I am as sure as anyone can be. You can never be 100% sure of something like that but as much as I know my husband, I will say it would shock me to the same degree it might shock me to find out he had molested our daughter. He's simply not motivated enough to spend the energy on an affair.
> 
> For the next part, I think I need to correct your wording if you will permit me. We haven't been good friends. We have been good business partners and good parents together. We are amiable as friends but not what I would call friends.
> 
> Regarding his small efforts, I agree with this statement. Regarding whether or not he is happy, you could be right. He may be very happy although I only see it when he is in the company of others or when he is away from me. I do think he is content with the status quo... enough to not put effort into making it better. That is not the same thing as happy.
> 
> Eventually you're probably going to have to decide if you can forge your own life within this marriage or just end it. Don't worry about being the black sheep, this is your life to live and no one elses.
> 
> This is where I'm at.
> 
> Thanks again.


You wouldn't be the first person to swear you'd be shocked to find that he had someone else only to find that he did, this forum is full of that. Just because he's not motivated to put forth effort with you doesn't mean he wouldn't with someone else, but I get that you can't really know. You're describing a man that just doesn't feel all that strongly about you, because since he has fun with everyone else it would appear that it really is you. You want the attention that someone who loves you could give, but he may just not feel strongly enough about you to give it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Daisy2714

lifeistooshort said:


> You're describing a man that just doesn't feel all that strongly about you, because since he has fun with everyone else it would appear that it really is you. You want the attention that someone who loves you could give, but he may just not feel strongly enough about you to give it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hearing someone else say this is all too heart-wrenching. It's so very true to how I feel. He will say he loves me. To me it's just words with nothing behind them. Like the prayer before a meal. It's rote. It has no depth, no sincerity. 

Thanks again.


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## lifeistooshort

Daisy2714 said:


> Hearing someone else say this is all too heart-wrenching. It's so very true to how I feel. He will say he loves me. To me it's just words with nothing behind them. Like the prayer before a meal. It's rote. It has no depth, no sincerity.
> 
> Thanks again.


You're welcome. He may love you to the extent that he can, but that doesn't mean it's enough for you to live with. My ex hb loved me to the extent that he was capable of it, but on my end the marriage was just so empty. We had other issues that you don't appear to have, but this I understand. I'm sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## accept1

Thanks for your replies.
I think I get the overall picture now.

.'''''' We haven't been good friends. We have been good business partners and good parents together. We are amiable as friends but not what I would call friends. ''''''

It seems for some reason he does not feel comfortable with you. You dont mention if you argue a lot together. You are trying to 'force' the issue perhaps half heartedly. He most likely 'senses' that.

You are scared to make a move as you say you will be 'branded'. I doubt very much that everyone thinks you are the perfect couple. Normally these things cant be hidden. I dont think things will get better either. You feel 'let down' and want to be treated as a lady and a wife. I am sorry but I just cant see it happening.


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## Daisy2714

accept1 said:


> Thanks for your replies.
> I think I get the overall picture now.
> 
> .'''''' We haven't been good friends. We have been good business partners and good parents together. We are amiable as friends but not what I would call friends. ''''''
> 
> It seems for some reason he does not feel comfortable with you. You dont mention if you argue a lot together. You are trying to 'force' the issue perhaps half heartedly. He most likely 'senses' that.
> 
> You are scared to make a move as you say you will be 'branded'. I doubt very much that everyone thinks you are the perfect couple. Normally these things cant be hidden. I dont think things will get better either. You feel 'let down' and want to be treated as a lady and a wife. I am sorry but I just cant see it happening.


Thank you for your response. This is a little off topic but I have a question for you. Why do you have two different user profiles that you have used to respond to my post? I'm new to this whole idea of forum stuff so please forgive me if this is a stupid question. Just wondering.


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## accept1

I dont seem to be getting any emails to tell me that there has been a response to my posts. I thought I would try using a different name and email to see if there was any improvement sadly there has not been any. Maybe I havent ticked the right boxes, or there maybe some other reason. The only way I can now tell if there has been a response is going to my profile and looking through my posts and seeing if the replies have increased. I do post a very lot I seem to have an opinion on everything and usually different to other posters who seem to suspect everytime that there is 'someone' else involved.

Since you havent replied directly to my post I suppose the subject is now closed.


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## 2galsmom

Daisy2714 I am not going to judge you nor did I, although I accurately assessed by your own admission your "blessed" situation. Perhaps try a hobby, a woman's group or job to give self-satisfaction apart from your identity of his wife. That will perhaps boost your confidence and make you feel good.

Unless there is more to your story, I have to really advise you again to recount your blessings. It is really no picnic getting a divorce, some do it and regret what they took for granted and others HAVE to get a divorce to save their lives and salvage the childhood of their offspring.

I hope you can find your own happiness and pursue your interests while your husband travels and you can take your mind off your malaise with your husband.

I am a black sheep, it isn't so bad and you are who you are, be happy with who you are, that's the way the Universe made you.


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## Boricha

Daisy,

Can I ask how old you guys are? Unfortunately, when you've been married for a long time, you get in a rut.

The kids are all grown. It sounds like both of you are financially stable. If you were to divorce, do you see a better life for yourself? Do you want to find a more fulfilling partner?

Is it possible to change yourself - do things you've been putting off that would make you really happy. It does sound frustrating but not enough to make serious life changes. 

I would have a serious talk with your husband. Tell him to slow down and make time for you. See what he says. I think you should go to IC to sort this out. 

You are his wife. You should feel appreciated.


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## Daisy2714

Boricha said:


> Daisy,
> 
> Can I ask how old you guys are? Unfortunately, when you've been married for a long time, you get in a rut.


We are both in our late 40's. Yes, it's true we are in a rut. Have been for much too long.



Boricha said:


> The kids are all grown. It sounds like both of you are financially stable. If you were to divorce, do you see a better life for yourself? Do you want to find a more fulfilling partner?


I am absolutely NOT looking for another partner. In fact, I'm not looking to get divorced. I AM considering separation.



Boricha said:


> Is it possible to change yourself - do things you've been putting off that would make you really happy. It does sound frustrating but not enough to make serious life changes.


Every day presents new possibilities to change oneself. 



Boricha said:


> I would have a serious talk with your husband. Tell him to slow down and make time for you. See what he says. I think you should go to IC to sort this out.


We have had these 'serious' talks more times than I can remember. There doesn't seem to be anything else to say.



Boricha said:


> You are his wife. You should feel appreciated.


Thank you for this. Over the past week of lurking around this board, I haven't found much inspiration here. I haven't found much hope here. I did find one person here who's situation helped me find a little insight and while I didn't gain much hope, it did help me come to certain conclusions. That in turn is helping me forge my way to making some decisions.

Thanks for posting and asking questions.


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## Boricha

Daisy,

Good luck to you. Wow. You married young.

Since you are adamant that divorce is out(which I really commend you for), and your husband is stuck in his ways, I think it's up to you to make some changes.

It seems like your husband expects you to play the traditional wife role. He doesn't seem comfortable having fun with you. Was it always like this?

Instead of building more resentment, I think you need to establish your own hobbies, goals. You relying on him for happiness can come off slightly needy(to him).

Tell your husband that you will be going to stay with family or friends for a few weeks. Stay away and see what he does. Start pulling away from him. Be nice, but at a distance. Give him a taste of his own medicine.

He might start coming around.


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## EleGirl

Daisy,


Have you read the book "Divorce Busting"? I think it would help you. If you read it, pay special attention to the section on the "180". It's not the 180 posted to in my signature block below.


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## Daisy2714

Boricha and EleGirl. Thank you both for posting.

EleGirl, I have not read it. I will get a copy and read it. Thanks for the pointer.

Boricha, I married VERY young. But not to this husband. My first husband was killed in a car accident when I was 21. After that I was a single mom for a bit and then remarried. My current husband had never been married before and had no other children. He legally adopted my kids and we had two of our own together.

There has never been any distinction between our children. Never any sense of half-siblings or anything like that. He's always loved all of them and accepted all of them as his own. He has been a wonderful father. 

To answer your question about him not being comfortable having fun with me... yes. It has always been like that. I can remember crying myself to sleep on the eve of our wedding because his best friend came into town (he was the best man) and he and my husband stayed awake until 4 in the morning catching up, drinking, and having a good time together. Now, there is nothing inherently wrong with this. It's not that I felt left out. It's that this was something he would not do with me. I couldn't get 10 minutes of time with him to relax before he would fall asleep. As if I simply am not interesting enough to hold his attention. It's hard to convey this story in an email. There's a lot of back story that you don't see so it gets mis-read. Let me just say that his actions have always been to make me the last priority. 

What I'm realizing now is that I'm partly to blame for this. After all, I've let it go on. I married him somehow expecting that "someday" would arrive when I would stop being on the back burner. Well, someday never came.

I saw a quote just yesterday that resonated with me. I copied it and made it my background on my computer. It reads;

Respect yourself enough to walk away from anything that no longer serves you,grows you, or makes you happy. If you aren't being treated with love and respect, check your price tag. Maybe you've marked yourself down. It's you who tells people what you're worth is. Get off of the clearance rack and get behind the glass where they keep the valuables.


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## Daisy2714

I just ordered a copy of Divorce Busters. While I was on Amazon, I looked into Love Busters, His Needs Her Needs, and Five Steps to Romantic Love. I didn't order any of those, I just kinda checked into them and put them on my wish list in case I decide to later on. I will probably be back with questions after I read Divorce Busters.


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## Kolors

I want to hear how that book works out for you. I looked to download it the other day but I didnt see it on ibooks. I ended picking up the five love languages to work through first.


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## AshWill

First off, allow me to commend you on 23 years and successful partnership with your husband. My husband and I can't change a tire together without trying to kill each other so it's good that you can describe your relationship as a partnership. I think that is one thing that is truly rare these days. 

When I read your post, I get a feeling that you are looking for adventure. Perhaps that you feel like you missed out on something or are just looking to feel free like you did in your youth; almost like you lost yourself in raising your kids and supporting your husband. Maybe the problem isn't really in your marriage but in the routine itself because it feels like you really do love your husband. 

I don't know if I'm quite making sense so I will simply make a suggestion. Work on yourself. You don't have to separate from your husband to do this (you can if you think it will help, or if he's holding you back). Start doing stuff for yourself. Try taking a zumba class or start painting; take up meditation or hiking. There are a few ways it can go. Either your husband notices that you are focusing on yourself and he decides to join you (thus adding excitement to your marriage again) or he remains set in his ways while you are out having all these experiences on your own. Either way, YOU get something out of it. You get to develop a sense of identity and can restore some excitement in your life.


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## LongWalk

Your posts have patiently portrayed the failings in your relationship. Sad that he is content while you are hanging on waiting for emotional warmth. Part of the problem is that perceives you as part of himself but without feeling your pain and frustration.

I have seen this in parents relationship. My father was always emotionally dependent on my mother but unable imagine or prioritize her needs. His needs always came first, even when they were self destructive. 

My parents did fight but my mother won battles while my father laid waste to his career and dissipated their wealth.

My mother was always cognizant that divorce would destroy him. She never had the heart to do it.

Do you think your husband could flourish without you? Elegirls suggestion that you distance yourself from is a good one. If he courted you with creativity and charm, he might change everything. 

Right now there are no consequences for his lack of engagement.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Daisy2714

AshWill said:


> First off, allow me to commend you on 23 years and successful partnership with your husband. My husband and I can't change a tire together without trying to kill each other so it's good that you can describe your relationship as a partnership. I think that is one thing that is truly rare these days.
> 
> When I read your post, I get a feeling that you are looking for adventure. Perhaps that you feel like you missed out on something or are just looking to feel free like you did in your youth; almost like you lost yourself in raising your kids and supporting your husband. Maybe the problem isn't really in your marriage but in the routine itself because it feels like you really do love your husband.
> 
> I don't know if I'm quite making sense so I will simply make a suggestion. Work on yourself. You don't have to separate from your husband to do this (you can if you think it will help, or if he's holding you back). Start doing stuff for yourself. Try taking a zumba class or start painting; take up meditation or hiking. There are a few ways it can go. Either your husband notices that you are focusing on yourself and he decides to join you (thus adding excitement to your marriage again) or he remains set in his ways while you are out having all these experiences on your own. Either way, YOU get something out of it. You get to develop a sense of identity and can restore some excitement in your life.


AshWill, thank you for taking the time to read through my story. I want to address your comments. 

First, I am cognizant that being good partners is a good and necessary thing in any relationship. I don't take it for granted and I'm grateful that we are. What I wish we had that's missing is a friendship. 

Second, I'm not sure I would say I'm actually looking for adventure. Nor would I say I'm trying to capture something I missed. I will definitely agree that when I married my husband, I lost my identity. 

When we met, I was a widow with 3 pre-schoolers. I was independent financially. I worked, went to school, and took care of my kids. I was happy with myself physically, emotionally, and spiritually. I dated from time to time and by the time we met, I was ready for a deeper relationship. It was good timing in his life also. We did't date for very long but we got along well and he was crazy about the kids. Back then, he at least respected me. 

Here's the crazy part. I was not in love with him when we married. I know how that sounds but it's true. Let me try to explain. As a widow, I had already been in a marriage. It's bears saying that it was an abusive and dysfunctional marriage that I was trapped in... too young, too scared, too naive to know what to do. As terrible as it sounds, my first husband's death was a blessing in my life and that of my children.

After he died, I took time to just grow up. I had married at 16 and had twins by 17. It took me a bit to find out a little of who I was and what I wanted. I knew I didn't want a repeat of my first marriage. 

So, by the time I met my husband, I had a mental "list" of what I wanted in a serious relationship. There were a lot of things on that list and he fulfilled nearly all of them. The few things that were missing didn't seem terribly important to me and I accepted the fact that no one would ever be perfect.

I loved him, I respected him, I admired him. I just wasn't "IN LOVE" with him. It confused me because I wanted to be. He fit the bill. I felt safe with him... there was just a part of me that wouldn't give myself to him completely.

Anyway, to come back around to your comments. The idea of working on myself is not a new idea. I certainly have outside interests and he does also. A few years ago I implemented exactly what you have suggested. I lost 72 pounds. I took up belly dancing with a friend (lots of fun by the way). I got a part time job. These things all served to make me feel better about myself but they didn't improve our relationship. It's as if I'm invisible. I even cut my hair and had it highlighted and he very even noticed... truly didn't notice. That may be normal for some but in my case we were talking about 8 inches of hair cut off and I've never highlighted it before.

So my thoughts on this suggestion is that I've been there, done that. I do agree that there's value in stepping out and doing things for myself but I don't really hold hope in that it will improve things between us.

Also, my story would be unfinished if I didn't say that I made the decision to love this man for better or worse. I don't believe I could stop loving him any more than I could stop loving one of my children. I can also say that somewhere along the way, in the early years, I did eventually fall in love with him. Maybe that's when things started to go wrong. It's hard to pinpoint. 



LongWalk said:


> Your posts have patiently portrayed the failings in your relationship. Sad that he is content while you are hanging on waiting for emotional warmth. Part of the problem is that perceives you as part of himself but without feeling your pain and frustration.
> 
> I have seen this in parents relationship. My father was always emotionally dependent on my mother but unable imagine or prioritize her needs. His needs always came first, even when they were self destructive.
> 
> My parents did fight but my mother won battles while my father laid waste to his career and dissipated their wealth.
> 
> My mother was always cognizant that divorce would destroy him. She never had the heart to do it.
> 
> Do you think your husband could flourish without you? Elegirls suggestion that you distance yourself from is a good one. If he courted you with creativity and charm, he might change everything.
> 
> Right now there are no consequences for his lack of engagement.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


LongWalk,

To be very specific, yes, he does flourish without me. Right now is a good example. He's in the middle east. He will be there until at least May of next year and possibly Feb of '15. He's happy. He touches base with me to communicate what he needs and deal with the functions of our life but we don't really talk. He says he misses me and I'm sure that to some degree, he does. Not in the sense of me as a person, but rather in the sense of what's normal. He will take some time over there before it's his new normal. 

He knows we are at a crossroad. He knows I'm thinking of separation. I won't do this while he is over there. That would be just too dishonorable. Instead, I think I'm going to use this time to TRY AGAIN to work on myself and find happiness outside of him. The sad thing is I don't think it's going to bring us together when he gets back. I think there's a part of me that already knows I've given up and I'm taking the road to prepare my life without him.

You are right about there not being any consequences. I see them but he does not. I have some hope that once we separate, our relationship will improve. I don't think he is actually capable of appreciating or respecting me while we are together.

Thank you both for your thoughtful comments.


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## Daisy2714

EleGirl said:


> Daisy,
> 
> 
> Have you read the book "Divorce Busting"? I think it would help you. If you read it, pay special attention to the section on the "180". It's not the 180 posted to in my signature block below.


I've been reading through the book and I can see why you recommended it to me. I don't know if it will help. I read some and a glimmer of hope stirs and then I read a little more and it gets squashed. 

I leave tomorrow morning to attend my son's wedding and won't be back till late on Sunday night. I won't be taking the book with me. There are a lot of true assumptions regarding the differences between men and women. In our relationship, some of those assumptions are not correct. 

I've come to that place that I no longer "nag". I don't have the energy to put up a fight. I don't have the desire to. I just keep coming back to being tired. Tired of broken promises, tired of being invisible, tired of saying the same thing over and over and over again. 

When I talk to my husband I just have nothing to say. I'm out of words. All I really want to do is get the conversation over with. I find that I am only half listening to him. 

This is what is really scary to me. We've never been in this place before. We've never been to a point that I just don't even want to try or that I don't really want to talk to him. And yet, I will keep reading. I will keeping looking for an answer. I must... even though I don't feel it, I know that I must. 

I'll post again after I've read a bit more. Thanks for the recommendation.

Have a good weekend.


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## EleGirl

Daisy2714 said:


> I've been reading through the book and I can see why you recommended it to me. I don't know if it will help. I read some and a glimmer of hope stirs and then I read a little more and it gets squashed.
> 
> I leave tomorrow morning to attend my son's wedding and won't be back till late on Sunday night. I won't be taking the book with me. There are a lot of true assumptions regarding the differences between men and women. In our relationship, some of those assumptions are not correct.


But over all I think it’s a good book. And like you, there are some things in it that I might not agree with. There is no marriage or self-help book that will fit every circumstance. “Divorce Busting” and “His Needs, Her Needs” are, in my way of thinking, the two must read books for relationships.


Daisy2714 said:


> I've come to that place that I no longer "nag". I don't have the energy to put up a fight. I don't have the desire to. I just keep coming back to being tired. Tired of broken promises, tired of being invisible, tired of saying the same thing over and over and over again.
> 
> When I talk to my husband I just have nothing to say. I'm out of words. All I really want to do is get the conversation over with. I find that I am only half listening to him.
> This is what is really scary to me. We've never been in this place before. We've never been to a point that I just don't even want to try or that I don't really want to talk to him. And yet, I will keep reading. I will keeping looking for an answer. I must... even though I don't feel it, I know that I must.
> 
> I'll post again after I've read a bit more. Thanks for the recommendation.


I hope you find a way to bring your marriage back to a good place. According to the studies, most couples are able to get back on track and have a good life together. So there is always hope.


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## LongWalk

keep us updated


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## Oblivious2678

Daisy, your situation sounds very similar to mine. My wife gave me the whole speech of how she's not 'in love' with me anymore. She loves me, cares for me, wants to see good things happen for me, but she doesn't want to fight for us anymore. I won't clog your thread with my story, but if you want, feel free to read. 

Did you hit him over the head at all with how you truly feel? I am the type that needed to be hit over the head, primarily because my mind was clouded with a lifechanging event. Have there been any lifechanging events in his life during the 23 years, maybe through military life?

The fact that you said you weren't 'in love' with him when you married him is a tough one. It sounds like you married him for companionship and a sense of security for you and the kids. My wife and I married quickly (1.5 years dating) and I adopted her daughter. However, we were definitely in love with each other.

I advise taking this time while he's overseas to evaluate yourself and make yourself better. When he gets back, I believe you should start over. Date each other. Get to know each other...not the logistics of your 23 years. It sounds like you never really did this. You made a 'business' decision. Give it try.

Now, if you don't mind, your mindset sounds a lot like what my wife is going through. 6 weeks ago, she was set on wanting to divorce me. We separated for a short time, but realized it sucked for us moving back and forth from the house and it wasn't good for the kids long term. Now we're back to limbo/co-existing and allegedly working on things. If you could hit your husband over the head to get your point across, what would you tell him?


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## Daisy2714

Oblivious2678 said:


> Daisy, your situation sounds very similar to mine. My wife gave me the whole speech of how she's not 'in love' with me anymore. She loves me, cares for me, wants to see good things happen for me, but she doesn't want to fight for us anymore. I won't clog your thread with my story, but if you want, feel free to read.
> 
> Did you hit him over the head at all with how you truly feel? I am the type that needed to be hit over the head, primarily because my mind was clouded with a lifechanging event. Have there been any lifechanging events in his life during the 23 years, maybe through military life?
> 
> The fact that you said you weren't 'in love' with him when you married him is a tough one. It sounds like you married him for companionship and a sense of security for you and the kids. My wife and I married quickly (1.5 years dating) and I adopted her daughter. However, we were definitely in love with each other.
> 
> I advise taking this time while he's overseas to evaluate yourself and make yourself better. When he gets back, I believe you should start over. Date each other. Get to know each other...not the logistics of your 23 years. It sounds like you never really did this. You made a 'business' decision. Give it try.
> 
> Now, if you don't mind, your mindset sounds a lot like what my wife is going through. 6 weeks ago, she was set on wanting to divorce me. We separated for a short time, but realized it sucked for us moving back and forth from the house and it wasn't good for the kids long term. Now we're back to limbo/co-existing and allegedly working on things. If you could hit your husband over the head to get your point across, what would you tell him?


Thank you for reading my thread and posting. I want to address a couple of things you have mentioned. Your comment about our marriage being a "business" decision is very accurate. At the time, I didn't really see it that way. I saw it as a sensible decision. I grew up in an abusive home. I learned early to trust my emotions for protection. Unfortunately, our emotions can be very deceptive. 

After my first husband died, I changed. I grew up. I stopped believing in white nights and fairy tales. I had three small children to care for and I couldn't rely on emotions to tell me if someone was safe or not because I had never found safety in the people I was supposed to be able to trust. 

I think that's when I decided to make my decisions based on what I knew was good for me rather than what felt good. As I said earlier, my husband really is a good man. That's what I knew would be good for us. 

Don't get me wrong... I cared about him. I loved him and respected him. He was kind. He was gentle. He was patient. We shared a similar faith. He loved my kids. He was focused on a building a future. There were so many good things to love about him. I just wasn't in love with him. I know it's weird and believe me I really struggled with this. It took a long time (1 1/2 or 2 years) into our marriage before I really felt that sort of love for him. 

Before any of you get the wrong impression that I deceived him, I did not. I was always honest with him about this. I think his patience about it was one of the reasons I finally came around. I think in part it had to do with being able to really trust. Perhaps I just needed time for that.

Regarding your question... yes. I believe I have expressed in every way I know how that I do not feel cherished, loved, or respected. I just don't know how to get it through to him. Over the course of 23 years, yes, we have gone through several life changing events. None of those events triggered the issues we have between us as a couple. I will say that one event (the 9-11 attacks) forever changed the dynamics of our family. He was activated for a year right after the attack and that year turned all of our lives up-side-down.

I'm sorry to hear that you and your wife are back in a limbo state. It's a terrible place to be. I wish you the best. I have every intention of using this time to work on myself. I also agree that we need to "date" each other for a while. I'm just not certain we can do that in the context of a married relationship. I think we need to find some independence from each other. However, it sounds like that didn't work to well for you and your wife.

To answer your last question. I would tell him that we are out of time. That for the first time, I'm finally at a place that I'm too tired to fight for us. I would tell him that if he truly loves me, truly cherishes me, he will need to pursue me. I will not pursue him any longer. I would tell him to come to this forum and read this post. I would tell him that I don't need a business partner, I need a lover. I need a friend. I need to be noticed. I need to be led. I need to trust that he will keep his word. I need to be valued. I would tell him all those things.... along with all I've said before, over and over.

So maybe I'm missing something. Maybe I just can't communicate well. Maybe I'm not swinging hard enough. I'm not much of a game player. I'm open to suggestions. I've run out of ideas. 

Have a good night. Thanks again.


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## Oblivious2678

Daisy, thank you for sharing. I feel everything coming from your heart on this one. From a guy's perspective, we are oblivious (hence the name) to when women try to communicate their needs to us. It's as if you are using morse code and I can't explain why. Everything said in your last post, you need to clearly communicate it to him (and i'm sure you have already before), but this time, 'hit him over the head' with it. It will sink in. Explain it just the way you did in your post. I'm actually thinking right now is a good time for you to tell him this. With the downtime he will have overseas, he can evaluate himself in a different light and truly think about how much you mean to him. It will also prevent him from smothering you, which is a common backlash after hearing this kind of news.

Stay strong and don't give up. You also have this time to take care of yourself. Focusing on yourselves and what both of you truly want while apart right now is the best thing for you. When he comes home, you will know whether or not you truly want him to pursue you or move on.


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## Daisy2714

EleGirl,

I am about halfway through the book now. I find I have to stop often to just get a break from the emotions it stirs. How can I feel hope and hopelessness all at the same time? 

There are so many little things I miss. This book is bringing to light all the tiny stabs that over the years has been killing our relationship. It's very painful to read. Just as some of these threads are. I feel so lost. I don't know if this will help or not but I don't know what else to try so for now this is it.

I'm not comfortable making any decisions (regarding separation) until he is back in the states. It would be disgraceful and possibly even dangerous for him to be greeted with a "Dear John" letter while he is over there. I can't do it. However, I am thinking about sending him some reading material (such as Divorce Busting, HNHN, 5 Love Languages). I'm just not certain if it's something I should do or wait till he's back home. It almost seems too close to that "Dear John". 

I would appreciate some opinions on this. Particularly from any service men out there. The very last thing I want to do is something that may endanger him.


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## sammy3

OP, 

Youre story hits such a note with me. I met my husband 33 yrs ago, moved in with, the very night and never left him until he had an affair 2.5 years ago. I had been living a world so unknown to me that when I met him, he showed me way out, I took it, never looked back and fell in love. Or I thought, until my now own personal journey... 

But like you, I was ever so grateful for my life. 

I took off the rose color glasses of stories too, took responsibilities, gave back, but we too grew apart. Mines a good man too.He's never been selfish really, and we had a really pretty good marriage, before the affair. 

But, we just didnt laugh like we shoulda, or held hands, or enjoyed each other much anymore... I love him, ... he loves me, but I'm not in love w him anymore I dont think ... And you know, maybe he's not really either... 

I understand what your going thur... Believe, the only difference, mine doesnt want me to leave him, and we are facing aging now ... Ugh !!! 

~sammy


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## LongWalk

It is terrible that you have to endure a distance relationship for the next two years while you are uncertain as to which direction you will go. During that period of time surely the distance between you will grow enormously, don't you think?


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## manfromlamancha

Hello Daisy,

Really sorry about your sadness. I am far from knowledgeable on matters like these but have actually learned a thing or two from your posts (about my own marriage and where I could be better). I have managed to hold together a 30 year (almost) marriage and have been through the range of ups and downs. You are similar to my wife in some ways. The one thing that strikes me is that you seem to be a lot more passionate about your marriage and feelings than your husband does. I notice (from your posts) a distinct lack of passion for the marriage from your husband. This is not to say that he isn't a passionate man - he seems to have passion for a great many things but you seem to be at the bottom of that list. He needs to escalate you to the top of his passion priority list. If he can do this you will have cracked the main part of this problem in my humble opinion. I was in a similar position with my wife - she adores me and was way more passionate about our marriage and me (we have 4 grown up children) than I was - I always managed to put something ahead of her and this came back to bite me. Luckily, she didn't stop trying and made me see this and it was the best thing that I could have learnt about and worked on. As I said, our marriage was far from perfect with a really rocky start which meant my defences were up from day 1 but I am happy with the progress we have made. So I guess what I am trying to say is to not only stay committed to making this happen but focus on him redirecting his passion towards you - men are obtuse (read asses) sometimes in this area.


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## sadallot

Wow. reading your thread made me wonder if it was my thread !!!
I know exactly how you feel !
One question: has he always been emotionally handicapped ?(_as I call it_ )
Like you I have a great husband also.... but when it comes to love and emotional issues he checks out !
I sit alone and cry and cry !! so yes I know how you feel .

And like you my husband will try to make things better but it never lasts for to long ether !
After a while you just want it all to end so you don't have to hope anymore or be let down again.

I know you say you told him how you feel but does he really hear you? Maybe separating is the threat that will wake him up.. 
but for how long? and are you willing to chance it again..?

If you can find a way for him to admit that he has abandoned all your emotional needs ,and he gets help to correct it, then maybe you can stay with this good man and be happy again...
But *HE* needs to work on this if he wants to keep you...


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## Daisy2714

Sadallot,

Last week I sent him the book "Love Busters". I had hoped it would wake him up and realize we are truly at a crossroad. That doesn't seem to be how he took it. His response to me was to tell me how excited he was that I sent it and how much he's looking forward to reading it (sigh). While that spirit of co-operation is good, it's not promising to me. It's just one more lost attempt. He'll read it. We'll go through the workbook. He'll feel all warm and fuzzy about our "progress". However, my hopes for any real, lasting change are just about nill. 

The only thing left after this is separation. I'm afraid it will get there before he any real change happens. 

I completely relate to what you are saying. I spend more days crying than not. It's been incredibly lonely. Not because he's away. Actually, his being away helps to ease the pain. I have reached that point of just wanting it to end. It's too emotionally exhausting to keep trying and getting nowhere.

Thank you so much for your kind words.


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## sadallot

Well if it helps... my husband is making a huge effort to work things out !! 
And like you I wonder for how long....

So I ask you do you still love your husband? 
If yes then I suggest you tell him you have had it !!! 
And that you are thinking seriously thinking of leaving him for good ... 

Start looking for a new place to live and make sure he sees you doing that !!
Unless he breaks and comes to you on bended knee to change, then if you still love him give him one more chance... 
But let him know you believe it will be temporary because of past history and if it goes right back to the "same ole" you will leave for sure and there will be no coming back !! 
If he don't make a huge effort then think about leaving for real ~ 

I also found this site that is marriage counseling on line for $49.00.. so far this site looks pretty good.... give it a look over.
The first part is free ...

www.couplestherapyexposed.com

Let me know what you think ..I think it offers a real lot for $49.00...


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## Daisy2714

Thanks for the info. I'm not willing to sign up for a site that I have to pay for. It takes away anonymity and objectivity. 
I'm also way past the point of idle threats or even talking. I'm just at a point of action. I'm using this time to work on improving myself. I may take some classes in the spring... not sure yet. I'm focusing on some short term goals that I have been letting go. I'm trying to learn how to dream again. I'm hoping for the best but getting ready for the worst.
I'm settling our finances in the event we need to divide them. 
I'm not sure how much of this thread you have read. My husband is currently in the middle east until May. Then he will be home for about a month and gone again to Africa until May of 2015 (or thereabout). The time apart works both for us and against us. We can read these books but with that distance, it's hard to actually apply the suggestions. At the same time, it allows a reprieve from the hurt and frustration I deal with when he is here. That in turn gives me time to work on myself.

Yes, I still love my husband. I always will. Regardless of where we end up, I cannot stop loving this man.


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## nogutsnoglory

Daisy2714 said:


> Thanks for the info. I'm not willing to sign up for a site that I have to pay for. It takes away anonymity and objectivity.
> I'm also way past the point of idle threats or even talking. I'm just at a point of action. I'm using this time to work on improving myself. I may take some classes in the spring... not sure yet. I'm focusing on some short term goals that I have been letting go. I'm trying to learn how to dream again. I'm hoping for the best but getting ready for the worst.
> I'm settling our finances in the event we need to divide them.
> I'm not sure how much of this thread you have read. My husband is currently in the middle east until May. Then he will be home for about a month and gone again to Africa until May of 2015 (or thereabout). The time apart works both for us and against us. We can read these books but with that distance, it's hard to actually apply the suggestions. At the same time, it allows a reprieve from the hurt and frustration I deal with when he is here. That in turn gives me time to work on myself.
> 
> Yes, I still love my husband. I always will. Regardless of where we end up, I cannot stop loving this man.


you said yourself, you married him as a way to fill a void. He "fit the bill", have you ever been in love with him? 
I ask to see if he has really changed much, or if you no longer have the same need to fill, you originally had when you married him.


----------



## Daisy2714

Apparently, you haven't read much of my thread. Yes, I love him. Yes, I am in love with him. Before pouring out any more judgement on me, please re-read my thread. I'm not here to be judged. If you think you have some advice that will help or contribute to this thread then by all means, contribute. 

On the other hand, if you want to pass judgement based on partial information, please excuse yourself.


----------



## natural bodies

Hi Daisy, I'm new here (on TAM) but I was looking through the forums to find any situations that were similar to my own, yours was the first I came across and it sounds so similar to my life. I may start my own thread but to sum it up I've been married 22yrs, married young (me 18, him 25) we have 2 children (14 and 4). I've never been really "in love" with him. He is a good man but we are not a good match. I'm tired of being sad as well and ready to quit. I'm not financially independent as I stay home with the 4yr old so that worries me about leaving. We have talked MANY times with little to no improvement. I will write him about what's on my mind as I can communicate better that way--he hates getting these letters. I just left him one last night to say the things about him that bug me and the things I like about him along with things I like sexually I also added my own downfalls. I asked him today if he read it he said some of it (it was 2 pages). I asked why not all he said he got tired of reading it and just stopped. That was a slap in my face. I said, so--if I was talking to you and just got tired of hearing what I was saying would you just tune out or walk away? He said, oh--just give it a break, I got tired of reading it and I'll read it later. I got the letter off the table and said don't bother. 

I'm done. Which is where it seems you are as well. It's so hard especially for me as we have young children at home. I'm going to see where I need to go from here and see about full time work.

Sorry to tell my story on your thread, just wanted you to know you are not alone. Best wishes.


----------



## Daisy2714

natural bodies said:


> Hi Daisy, I'm new here (on TAM) but I was looking through the forums to find any situations that were similar to my own, yours was the first I came across and it sounds so similar to my life. I may start my own thread but to sum it up I've been married 22yrs, married young (me 18, him 25) we have 2 children (14 and 4). I've never been really "in love" with him. He is a good man but we are not a good match. I'm tired of being sad as well and ready to quit. I'm not financially independent as I stay home with the 4yr old so that worries me about leaving. We have talked MANY times with little to no improvement. I will write him about what's on my mind as I can communicate better that way--he hates getting these letters. I just left him one last night to say the things about him that bug me and the things I like about him along with things I like sexually I also added my own downfalls. I asked him today if he read it he said some of it (it was 2 pages). I asked why not all he said he got tired of reading it and just stopped. That was a slap in my face. I said, so--if I was talking to you and just got tired of hearing what I was saying would you just tune out or walk away? He said, oh--just give it a break, I got tired of reading it and I'll read it later. I got the letter off the table and said don't bother.
> 
> I'm done. Which is where it seems you are as well. It's so hard especially for me as we have young children at home. I'm going to see where I need to go from here and see about full time work.
> 
> Sorry to tell my story on your thread, just wanted you to know you are not alone. Best wishes.


I don't mind you telling your story here. I am so sorry to hear this is where you are. Especially with the children still at home. When I first came to this site, I didn't have ANY hope nor any desire to try again. At this moment, I can say I have a flicker of both. Stick around. Some of these threads are difficult as they hit close to home. Others I pass over as they are not issues I can relate to. 

TAM gives me a place to talk honestly about this. No one in my life has a clue what goes on behind the doors of our relationship. Possibly our youngest son does to a degree. I have no one I can talk to about this. No one to ask for help. No one to give me objective advice who can relate. When (if) we do actually separate, it will be a blow to everyone. That is partially why I've hung on so long. I'm not looking forward to that day at all.

Best to you also.


----------



## Openminded

It is never easy to tell family you are divorcing. But staying in an unhappy marriage that has no hope is far worse than facing the fear of the unknown.


----------



## LongWalk

Life is short and it just speeds up.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## 49crash

Enjoyed your thread here. As a man on the otherside of a pretty similar situation I kind of understand. I understand after many talks with my wife who is divorcing me. I think the real difference in my situation is that I was not really lacking in my affection and attention towards my wife. We were best friends who spent time as a couple and had a great sex life. She still fell out of love with me though. The attention, compliments, cherishing I did just were not accepted. She felt I did it because it was what I had to do as a husband of 23 years. In her mind I just did not mean it. I say this because I wonder even if your husband changed his ways would it really change your mind? Just curious. I know my wife is set in her decision and nothing I could change or do could change her mind. Maybe she would stay a bit longer but but in the end she would still leave.


----------



## Daisy2714

49crash said:


> Enjoyed your thread here. As a man on the otherside of a pretty similar situation I kind of understand. I understand after many talks with my wife who is divorcing me. I think the real difference in my situation is that I was not really lacking in my affection and attention towards my wife. We were best friends who spent time as a couple and had a great sex life. She still fell out of love with me though. The attention, compliments, cherishing I did just were not accepted. She felt I did it because it was what I had to do as a husband of 23 years. In her mind I just did not mean it. I say this because I wonder even if your husband changed his ways would it really change your mind? Just curious. I know my wife is set in her decision and nothing I could change or do could change her mind. Maybe she would stay a bit longer but but in the end she would still leave.


Thank you for posting. The answer to your question is an emphatic YES. The very last thing I want is the end of my marriage. I still hope it can be saved. I would appreciate any insight you can offer as to how this might be done. It's what I'm here for. It's why I'm posting. 

Over the years, I have tried in every way I can think of to communicate what is going on in this little mind of mine.... what I need from him... what I hope for in our marriage. 

I've supported him. By that I mean that I've encouraged his career goals, stood by through the long years of him getting his degree. I've encouraged his entrepreneurial activities and hobbies even when they failed.

I've never taken our problems out in public. That is to say that I've never bad-mouthed him or publicly disrespected him.

I've given myself up for this man, for our marriage. I gave up my career goals to be his wife. To build our family. I don't resent him for this. I did it willingly because I loved him and wanted that life with him. He got want he wanted. I did not. 

Now, 23 years later, I'm discovering that I have to think about myself. I have to start over. I have to be ready in case things don't work out. My husband loves our family. He loves me as a part of that entity. However, I really need, expect, and deserve to be loved as an individual person. Someone he actually places value on. I'm not. I used to be. I know the difference. I've given better than half my life to this man. I've been honest. I've been patient. I've done all I can to meet him more than halfway. 

It's my turn now. I don't kid myself in thinking that the grass is greener. I'm not running down the road to divorce/separation. At the same time, I do think that if I don't take action, my life will continue to drain out of me. Frankly, I'm just to young to die.


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## nogutsnoglory

Well I read your thread in full. I noticed if we criticize him you are agreeable, if you get criticized you get defensive and a bit angry.

I am sure you will get defensive and angry at this too, I will not post on here again. I really do think you are a big part of the problem as is he. I am also sorry you are here and in pain. Until you are able to be criticized without deflecting, you will not have a healthy relationship with any man.


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## Daisy2714

nogutsnoglory said:


> Well I read your thread in full. I noticed if we criticize him you are agreeable, if you get criticized you get defensive and a bit angry.
> 
> I am sure you will get defensive and angry at this too, I will not post on here again. I really do think you are a big part of the problem as is he. I am also sorry you are here and in pain. Until you are able to be criticized without deflecting, you will not have a healthy relationship with any man.


I asked if you read my post in full because you appeared to have missed the part where I said that I am in love with my husband. You also appear to have missed the part where I said that two people are part of this problem and it will take two people to be a part of the solution. 

I was defensive at your response. There is a difference in offering constructive criticism and attacking. Your post was not constructive. You made it sound like I used my husband in marrying him and that now I just no longer need him and am ready to discard him. If that's not what you meant, please re-phrase. That is how I read it. 

My choosing to marry him because he "fit the bill" as you say, sounded like a condemnation. Was it? In your mind, did you not judge me for that? If so, why would you think it so inappropriate? What reason in your mind would be appropriate to marry someone? I committed to him and have kept my commitments. I have sacrificed for his benefit. I have submitted to his plans. When he changes his plans, (as he often does), I have adjusted.

No, I was not romantically 'in love'. Yes, I did love him. How many people here on this forum were head over heels crazy in love when they got married only to find themselves here having broken promises and now despise each other? 

Loving someone is a choice. It's one I made 23 years ago and I still make every day. I would rather be honest with myself and with him and value that commitment than to let my "feelings" guide my choices. 

If you judge me for this, then you have no place in this conversation. If that's being defensive on my part, so be it. I can own that. On the other hand, if I misread what you were trying to say, please clarify and I still welcome any help you would offer.


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## 49crash

Wish I had the answers for sure but according to my wife there is nothing I can or could do to make her love me "that way" again. She gave up 19 yrs to stay at home and run the household/raise 3 girls. Now that that is pretty much done she is discovering that she has to think about herself and start over. Its her time I think and the grass def is not greener with not having worked in 19 years. We had a great marriage and will remain friends I hope as she still loves me as a person but not as a husband. In a way I think I represent partly the years she has sacrificed. Maybe you can fix your marriage but in my case her mind is set and no matter how difficult it will be she has to see if she can make it on her own. 



Daisy2714 said:


> Thank you for posting. The answer to your question is an emphatic YES. The very last thing I want is the end of my marriage. I still hope it can be saved. I would appreciate any insight you can offer as to how this might be done. It's what I'm here for. It's why I'm posting.
> 
> Over the years, I have tried in every way I can think of to communicate what is going on in this little mind of mine.... what I need from him... what I hope for in our marriage.
> 
> I've supported him. By that I mean that I've encouraged his career goals, stood by through the long years of him getting his degree. I've encouraged his entrepreneurial activities and hobbies even when they failed.
> 
> I've never taken our problems out in public. That is to say that I've never bad-mouthed him or publicly disrespected him.
> 
> I've given myself up for this man, for our marriage. I gave up my career goals to be his wife. To build our family. I don't resent him for this. I did it willingly because I loved him and wanted that life with him. He got want he wanted. I did not.
> 
> Now, 23 years later, I'm discovering that I have to think about myself. I have to start over. I have to be ready in case things don't work out. My husband loves our family. He loves me as a part of that entity. However, I really need, expect, and deserve to be loved as an individual person. Someone he actually places value on. I'm not. I used to be. I know the difference. I've given better than half my life to this man. I've been honest. I've been patient. I've done all I can to meet him more than halfway.
> 
> It's my turn now. I don't kid myself in thinking that the grass is greener. I'm not running down the road to divorce/separation. At the same time, I do think that if I don't take action, my life will continue to drain out of me. Frankly, I'm just to young to die.


----------



## EleGirl

49crash said:


> Enjoyed your thread here. As a man on the otherside of a pretty similar situation I kind of understand. I understand after many talks with my wife who is divorcing me. I think the real difference in my situation is that I was not really lacking in my affection and attention towards my wife. We were best friends who spent time as a couple and had a great sex life. She still fell out of love with me though. The attention, compliments, cherishing I did just were not accepted. She felt I did it because it was what I had to do as a husband of 23 years. In her mind I just did not mean it. I say this because I wonder even if your husband changed his ways would it really change your mind? Just curious. *I know my wife is set in her decision and nothing I could change or do could change her mind. *Maybe she would stay a bit longer but but in the end she would still leave.


Has your wife told you of anything that you could have done that would have made a difference? 

Does she feel that you met her needs? If not what needs did you not meet?


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## Daisy2714

49crash said:


> Wish I had the answers for sure but according to my wife there is nothing I can or could do to make her love me "that way" again. She gave up 19 yrs to stay at home and run the household/raise 3 girls. Now that that is pretty much done she is discovering that she has to think about herself and start over. Its her time I think and the grass def is not greener with not having worked in 19 years. We had a great marriage and will remain friends I hope as she still loves me as a person but not as a husband. In a way I think I represent partly the years she has sacrificed. Maybe you can fix your marriage but in my case her mind is set and no matter how difficult it will be she has to see if she can make it on her own.


I'm so sorry to hear this. In my case the love is still there. I just wish I could get him to love me as a person and not just as a part of the unit of marriage. I do hope you two can be friends. I hope my husband and I can become friends BEFORE it escalates to separation. 

Thanks again for taking the time to respond. It resonates with me because I know my husband would say we have had a great marriage despite the fact that I have done my best to communicate my concerns over the years. Obviously, from your perspective you have had a great marriage but your wife sees it quite differently. I can't help but wonder if there's a simple solution to fixing our marriage that I've overlooked. I know that on the outside, to our friends and family, it looks good. Privately though, it's very different. 

Someone here said I should "hit him over the head" with what I need from him. I truly thought I had done that several times. I just don't know how to convey it to him. This is where I'm asking for help from you guys out there. Either he gets it and just doesn't care or I'm speaking a foreign language to him. In either case, I've reached my end as far as talking goes. I'm so tired of talking. It gets us nowhere. 

Yes I want things to work out. Yes I want to save my marriage. At the same time, I am facing the reality that I must be prepared in case things do not work. I'm not willing to give the next 23 years of my life to this sort of existence. 

I'm so sorry for the pain you must be feeling. I wish you the best. Take care of yourself.


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## 49crash

Don't want to hijack this thread but no my wife says I met all of her needs. Really she believes we had a great marriage but she just wants to fly solo. We really were a couple as well as Mom and dad and spent a lot of time together just the 2 of us. 


Good luck Daisy2714 I hope you can figure it all out.



EleGirl said:


> Has your wife told you of anything that you could have done that would have made a difference?
> 
> Does she feel that you met her needs? If not what needs did you not meet?


----------



## Keenwa

Daisy2714 said:


> Here's the crazy part. I was not in love with him when we married. I know how that sounds but it's true. Let me try to explain. As a widow, I had already been in a marriage. It's bears saying that it was an abusive and dysfunctional marriage that I was trapped in... too young, too scared, too naive to know what to do. As terrible as it sounds, my first husband's death was a blessing in my life and that of my children.
> 
> After he died, I took time to just grow up. I had married at 16 and had twins by 17. It took me a bit to find out a little of who I was and what I wanted. I knew I didn't want a repeat of my first marriage.
> 
> So, by the time I met my husband, I had a mental "list" of what I wanted in a serious relationship. There were a lot of things on that list and he fulfilled nearly all of them. The few things that were missing didn't seem terribly important to me and I accepted the fact that no one would ever be perfect.
> 
> I loved him, I respected him, I admired him. I just wasn't "IN LOVE" with him. It confused me because I wanted to be. He fit the bill. I felt safe with him... there was just a part of me that wouldn't give myself to him completely.


Hi Daisy,

I was intrigued by your post because I am in a similar situation. 16 years together, and feeling like you do... you have clearly thought about many things, and are not acting on a whim. 

What has struck me is the above comment. "You never loved him" but he fit the bill. I was in a similar situation, and through therapy have realized that I was looking for a kind, gentle, man who would be a great father, when I met my husband. Looks like you were looking for the same, no drama, just a good guy. And over the years you learned to love him. But you were never in love with him. So it sounds like he really was exactly what you needed at the time, at the time you were putting the needs of your family, your young children and your sanity in front of your emotional needs for connection, intimacy and love. Great... I did the same thing. 

I don't know if I have any advice to offer, simply to say that now it appears that your needs have changed, what was enough earlier is not enough now. What I am learning is that no amount of beating yourself up over this is going to change how you feel. While you can ask him over and over again for what you want, I really am not sure that it is possible to change someone when you have changed the rules. He married you because of whatever his reasons were, you know what yours were, and now you are changing the rules because that set of rules no longer fits the bill for you. Now you want intimacy, love, connection. Your husband may or may not be able to offer you this. But it's ok for you to feel this way, and to have those desires. I don't agree that we should always suck it up simply because we have a "good guy" who is stable, doesn't cheat etc etc. Being emotionally distant is the same as cheating, to me cheating is simply a symptom of something else. Simply because you have a "good guy" doesn't mean you have to stay or that it is the best thing for you to stay. 

My husband has been emotionally checked out for years, and I have been trying to make it work. He is now "trying", he is going for therapy etc etc because I wanted to walk out, so now we are doing couples counselling, but we are getting nowhere. So how long do we put our true, authentic feelings on the back burner before simply giving ourselves permission to let go? Sometimes we are walking separate paths, and never the two shall meet. Can we not still love someone and say goodbye to them? 

Anyhow there are my thoughts... from another thoroughly messed up and confused married person of 16 years.


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## Daisy2714

Keenwa,

I have been away for a few days but I read this message last night. I wanted to thank you. It's very insightful and I have (am) giving it a lot of thought. There is certainly some truth in what you are saying. Caring and kind, willingness to love my children without prejudice; those were certainly qualities I wanted. I can honestly say that while having a father for my children would obviously be a by-product of my choosing to marry, it was not what drove me to search for a husband. 

At the time, I was pretty happy with my little family. I had my own place and was able to support us without assistance from family members or the government. We didn't have tons of extra money but we made do well enough. I was in school and looking at a bright future. 

What I wanted the most was real companionship. Someone (adult) to share my life with. Someone to grow old with. Someone to be friends with. Someone to make love with. Someone to share my darkest secrets with. I am an introvert. Basically, I don't have many friends. I don't need or want many friends but the friends I have, I'm very close to. I'm very real with them. 

This is what I wanted the most as I decided to settle down. I didn't like the dating scene. I didn't like shallow relationships. I wanted something more real and lasting. Coming from the background that I did, it took me a while to even know what that should look like. 

While we dated, he was that person. He wasn't terribly exciting but I reasoned that I had probably had more excitement in my life than I needed so it was okay. He was steady. That was a good thing. Obviously, he made me feel special. He made me feel loved and cherished. He was intelligent. He (seemed) to be focused on a bright future. He adored my children. He was patient with me. 

He had a great relationship with his family. This was a huge contrast to the very abusive and dysfunctional family I had come from. He never yelled. He never made me feel afraid. He put me first in his priorities. He did all this while I was still wrestling with myself about why I just wasn't "feeling" that spark. Certainly I loved him, appreciated him, and respected him. It just took me a lot longer before I emotionally "needed" him. Eventually though, those feelings came. And gradually, his attention to me left. 

I still remember the first morning he left for work without kissing me goodbye. I still remember when he stopped getting up with me while I got his breakfast ready and instead of sitting down and enjoying that quiet time together, he was running out the door with a piece of fruit while I tossed breakfast in the garbage. I remember the first time I got angry because he canceled our night out for the third time. 

I remember when the work I did at home was no longer appreciated but instead it was criticized. I remember the years of broken promises. I remember the constant changing of career plans to the point of leaving me feeling very insecure and never knowing what tomorrow would hold for us. 

I remember when I realized that he actually judged me rather than respecting me. Realizing that he saw himself as better than me. I remember the many times he's clearing despised me in the way he talks to me and the looks he gives. 

It didn't take long for his love for me to die. Yet, if you were to ask him, he would say he loves me. He doesn't understand that what he really loves is the idea of me. The character I play in in the skit of his life. What I need is for him to love me, the person. Perhaps he never did. Perhaps I just thought so in the beginning. Perhaps he really cannot. I'm not sure.

On the other hand, maybe you're right. Maybe I'm the one who has changed. I keep thinking about that and I'm just not sure. If so, I must have been quite some time ago because I've been going around about this with him for nearly our entire marriage. Truly there are things that I ignored early on that I eventually could not ignore any longer. I'm sure of that. I don't know what that means now. 

Thanks again. I appreciate your perspective. It has given me something to think about and consider that I haven't before.

My best to you.


----------



## LongWalk

Well explained there.


----------



## Keenwa

Daisy2714 said:


> Keenwa,
> 
> 
> At the time, I was pretty happy with my little family. I had my own place and was able to support us without assistance from family members or the government. We didn't have tons of extra money but we made do well enough. I was in school and looking at a bright future.
> 
> What I wanted the most was real companionship. Someone (adult) to share my life with. Someone to grow old with. Someone to be friends with. Someone to make love with. Someone to share my darkest secrets with. I am an introvert. Basically, I don't have many friends. I don't need or want many friends but the friends I have, I'm very close to. I'm very real with them.
> 
> This is what I wanted the most as I decided to settle down. I didn't like the dating scene. I didn't like shallow relationships. I wanted something more real and lasting. Coming from the background that I did, it took me a while to even know what that should look like.
> 
> While we dated, he was that person. He wasn't terribly exciting but I reasoned that I had probably had more excitement in my life than I needed so it was okay. He was steady. That was a good thing. Obviously, he made me feel special. He made me feel loved and cherished. He was intelligent. He (seemed) to be focused on a bright future. He adored my children. He was patient with me.
> 
> He had a great relationship with his family. This was a huge contrast to the very abusive and dysfunctional family I had come from. He never yelled. He never made me feel afraid. He put me first in his priorities. He did all this while I was still wrestling with myself about why I just wasn't "feeling" that spark. Certainly I loved him, appreciated him, and respected him. It just took me a lot longer before I emotionally "needed" him. Eventually though, those feelings came. And gradually, his attention to me left.
> 
> I still remember the first morning he left for work without kissing me goodbye. I still remember when he stopped getting up with me while I got his breakfast ready and instead of sitting down and enjoying that quiet time together, he was running out the door with a piece of fruit while I tossed breakfast in the garbage. I remember the first time I got angry because he canceled our night out for the third time.
> 
> I remember when the work I did at home was no longer appreciated but instead it was criticized. I remember the years of broken promises. I remember the constant changing of career plans to the point of leaving me feeling very insecure and never knowing what tomorrow would hold for us.
> 
> I remember when I realized that he actually judged me rather than respecting me. Realizing that he saw himself as better than me. I remember the many times he's clearing despised me in the way he talks to me and the looks he gives.
> 
> It didn't take long for his love for me to die. Yet, if you were to ask him, he would say he loves me. He doesn't understand that what he really loves is the idea of me. The character I play in in the skit of his life. What I need is for him to love me, the person. Perhaps he never did. Perhaps I just thought so in the beginning. Perhaps he really cannot. I'm not sure.
> 
> On the other hand, maybe you're right. Maybe I'm the one who has changed. I keep thinking about that and I'm just not sure. If so, I must have been quite some time ago because I've been going around about this with him for nearly our entire marriage. Truly there are things that I ignored early on that I eventually could not ignore any longer. I'm sure of that. I don't know what that means now.
> 
> Thanks again. I appreciate your perspective. It has given me something to think about and consider that I haven't before.
> 
> My best to you.


Hi Daisy,

I can relate to a lot of what you are saying, though my husband has never been disrespectful or criticizing, he did stop doing all those nice things. I think he thought he was giving me space, (now I have discovered after our couples counselling). 

I also feel like my husband loves the "idea" of me, the idea o having a family and a wife, but I don't feel like he loves me, but the problem is that he thinks he does. It's a weird place to be isnt' it. ? 

I really thought I was in love with him when we met and for quite a while afterwards, but now in retrospect wonder if I really was or was it just a honeymoon phase, a sexual attraction phase... I don't know. All I know is I don't feel authentic in this relationship.


----------



## Daisy2714

Keenwa said:


> I also feel like my husband loves the "idea" of me, the idea o having a family and a wife, but I don't feel like he loves me, but the problem is that he thinks he does. It's a weird place to be isnt' it. ?


It is a difficult place to be. It's something of a no win because if you tell him this, it's not validating his feelings. It's saying that he doesn't even know his own feelings. Or it's saying that you can't accept his love the way it's presented. Either way, it makes you (me) seem unreasonable. 

I have come to a place that I don't even care how it makes me appear to others, what matters is the truth of it. That truth is defined by you (me). The bottom line is that I get to decide and define whether or not I feel cherished. I get to decide if I feel respected or loved. He can proclaim his adoration to the ends of the earth but if I'm not feeling it, it's inconsequential. 

Have a good day... and thanks again. I'm sorry you are in this place. I wish the best for you.


----------



## Keenwa

Daisy2714 said:


> It is a difficult place to be. It's something of a no win because if you tell him this, it's not validating his feelings. It's saying that he doesn't even know his own feelings. Or it's saying that you can't accept his love the way it's presented. Either way, it makes you (me) seem unreasonable.
> 
> I have come to a place that I don't even care how it makes me appear to others, what matters is the truth of it. That truth is defined by you (me). The bottom line is that I get to decide and define whether or not I feel cherished. I get to decide if I feel respected or loved. He can proclaim his adoration to the ends of the earth but if I'm not feeling it, it's inconsequential.
> 
> Have a good day... and thanks again. I'm sorry you are in this place. I wish the best for you.


Yeah I totally agree. This has been the hardest part for me, is actually putting value on how I feel. I have always put other peoples' feelings ahead of mine, somehow not really trusting how I feel as something legitimate and am only learning now to do this. 

I think my husband "adores" me or thinks he does but I don't feel it. Because it is not nourishing my soul, and like you say, only we get to decide what nourishes our souls. The hardest part is honouring that and not letting the peanut gallery in our brains tell us otherwise (ie, he's a good man, you have a great life, etc etc)..... I also have come to realize that he will be far happier with another wife, someone who can take him for who he is and who will love him for who he is. 

When I truly connect with how I feel, I know the answer... when I reason, I get confused and think I should stay.


----------



## Keenwa

Daisy2714 said:


> I just wish I could get him to love me as a person and not just as a part of the unit of marriage.


Yes there's the rub I think. I feel the same way about this. But isn't this just loving the idea of you and not loving you? If you don't feel seen or loved as a person, apart from what you provide as a wife, mother etc... then is that really love?


----------



## SolidSnake

Hi Daisy,

Two things struck me about your situation. First, since you have read Love Busters and Divorce Busters, you will know that Dr. Harley recommends that couples, especially couples in crisis, spend at least 15 hours a week together to achieve a state of intimacy. Your husband is away when your marriage is in crisis. He is not really meeting your needs when he is here, and he is certainly not meeting any of them while he is in the Middle East! I know its military related, but he should come back as soon as possible so that you can work on your marriage. It is not fair for you to have to wait until he comes back to separate. At the very least hopefully he won't be away until 2015. No wonder you want to separate under those circumstances. Even the best marriages have a hard time with long distance. 

Also, have you read The 5 Love Languages? I think you and your husband clearly have different love languages and that is a lot of the problem. You seem to be a quality time and a words of affirmation person, while your husband isn't. He may think he is showing you love through his acts of service or some other thing, but you don't feel loved because he is not showing you love in the way you need to feel it. He is not speaking your love language. That it what the book is about. I am a quality time person myself.


----------



## Daisy2714

SolidSnake said:


> Hi Daisy,
> 
> Two things struck me about your situation. First, since you have read Love Busters and Divorce Busters, you will know that Dr. Harley recommends that couples, especially couples in crisis, spend at least 15 hours a week together to achieve a state of intimacy. Your husband is away when your marriage is in crisis. He is not really meeting your needs when he is here, and he is certainly not meeting any of them while he is in the Middle East! I know its military related, but he should come back as soon as possible so that you can work on your marriage. It is not fair for you to have to wait until he comes back to separate. At the very least hopefully he won't be away until 2015. No wonder you want to separate under those circumstances. Even the best marriages have a hard time with long distance.
> 
> Also, have you read The 5 Love Languages? I think you and your husband clearly have different love languages and that is a lot of the problem. You seem to be a quality time and a words of affirmation person, while your husband isn't. He may think he is showing you love through his acts of service or some other thing, but you don't feel loved because he is not showing you love in the way you need to feel it. He is not speaking your love language. That it what the book is about. I am a quality time person myself.


You are dead on. Yes, we have both read the five love languages. He is definitely act of services. My number one is quality time with word of affirmation following. We both appreciate affection but our definitions of affection are different. THANK YOU! for paying attention enough to see this. I have days that I lose hope. Then I have days that I'm just apathetic. Today is one of those days. 

He asked me what I want for Christmas. I told him I want us to be okay. I want to know we are going to make it and realistically, I can't have that for Christmas. He didn't say anything.

Thanks again. You just brightened my day!


----------



## sandc

Daisy,
Re: separation... You are a Christian, right. Can you provide scriptural basis for God allowing legal separation? Other than 1 Corinthians 7:5, which talks about abstaining from sex for a time. I know this comes off sounding a little adversarial but I don't mean it to be. 

I'd like you to take a look at a book if you haven't read this one... it's call The Power of the Praying Wife by Stormie Omartian. This is the book that changed my life. My wife read it and prayed for me. How often do you pray for him? I mean really pray for him, not praying to have him act the way you want.


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## Daisy2714

Sandc,

I will not even try to prove my intentions or actions via scripture. I don't take offense to your question. I have not read the book but I have heard of it. 

I pray constantly. I speak to God more than I speak to anyone. It's not a ritual, it's a relationship. I pray for wisdom. I pray for guidance. I pray for comfort. I pray for patience. I pray for peace. I pray for perseverance. I do not pray for him to "act the way I want". I always pray that God will help me learn to love him more. I pray that if he isn't going to meet my needs, that I will find contentment and happiness despite that. 

I have always struggled with self-worth. I've always struggled with believing I have value. Because of that, until recently, I've always taken the full blame for our issues. I've always thought highly of my husband. I did not set out to change him when we got married. I liked him as he was. I respected him as he was. I chose to love him as he was.

Yes, I want things to change. Yes, I want HIM to change. I want him to treat me with at least the same regard and consideration that he treats others. That's not even completely true. I am his wife and I would like to be MORE IMPORTANT to him than everything else he puts before me. I would like him to love and cherish me as he once did and promised to do. 

Back to the issue of separation. First, please understand I am not leaning toward a "legal" separation and certainly not hoping to head toward divorce. Quite the opposite. I truly believe that a separation may be what it takes to save our marriage. 

I was once part of a Christian debate group. Through that experience I learned that anyone can manipulate scripture to support any view or action that they choose to do or believe. That is exactly why I will not attempt to support my decisions here. Please do not be offended by this. I simply refuse to use scripture that way. In public, or private. 

My faith, while I am in no way ashamed of it, it is very much a personal relationship with my God. I will gladly enter into study of the scriptures with anyone, but I will not attempt to defend my personal interpretation of them. 

I'm also not suggesting that I think there even is scriptural basis for my plan of action. Only that I believe it may be the course I need to take. Not everything is cut and dry. I'm not a Christian who believes I need to wait for God to tell me what breakfast cereal to eat today. 

Again, I take no offense to your question. I hope you aren't offended by my response. As a Christian brother, I welcome your input.


----------



## sandc

It's sounds like you're leaning away from legal separation, I think that's good. (unless I misunderstood) 

I'm glad to hear you pray as much as you do but let me just point something out...



Daisy2714 said:


> I pray constantly. I speak to God more than I speak to anyone. It's not a ritual, it's a relationship. I pray for wisdom. I pray for guidance. I pray for comfort. I pray for patience. I pray for peace. I pray for perseverance. I do not pray for him to "act the way I want". I always pray that God will help me learn to love him more. I pray that if he isn't going to meet my needs, that I will find contentment and happiness despite that.


You're prayers are all about your own comfort and happiness. They are self-ish prayers. My original question was, are you praying for your husband? Even though it seems painful and hard, I'm asking you to pray for your husband. I'm asking you to be self-less in your prayers. I will make you a deal, if you pray for your husband, and pray for God to make His will and direction made known, in your marriage, if you will pray for God to work on your husband's heart... Then I will pray for God to grant you wisdom, guidance, comfort, patience, peace, perseverance, contentment, and not happiness but joy. In other words, you pray for your husband, I pray for you. Intercessory prayer all around. Deal?

What do you have to lose?


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## Daisy2714

Sandc,

You are correct that I focus on me in my prayers rather than my husband. The reason I focus on me is because I only have control over changing myself. I pray that God will help me to be a better ME. I pray He will show me the road he has for ME to follow. I cannot be wise enough to presume to know what road he has for anyone else and I would not ask Him to do anything different for someone else. I always pray for His will to be done. 

Certainly, I pray for my husbands health. I pray for my marriage. I pray for God to direct him as He see's fit, but yes, my prayers generally focus on myself and how I can improve. 

I always welcome intercessory prayer. I'm not flippant enough to make a deal (a promise) with anyone that I don't know and won't know. I will continue to pray as I do and I will give thought to your words. I'm even willing to pray specifically for my husband in new and different way (as I ask direction from God). I'm even willing to read the book you suggested. I won't make any promises to you about how I will pray. I hope you can understand this. I do appreciate what you are trying to do but we don't know each other and this side of heaven, we never will.

There are many other things I pray for that are not mentioned here. Things that are not ME focused. I have not mentioned them here as I don't see the relevance. Please keep that in mind. This forum may be black and white but there is a lot of color between the lines of our lives.

Best regards,
Daisy


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## sandc

Then I'm afraid I have nothing to offer. Best of God's providence.


----------



## Daisy2714

To you also.


----------



## turnera

Daisy2714 said:


> He asked me what I want for Christmas. I told him I want us to be okay. I want to know we are going to make it and realistically, I can't have that for Christmas. He didn't say anything.


What about writing out specific actions from him that would get you to that point, and ask for those actions?


----------



## Kolors

Daisy2714 said:


> Sandc,
> 
> I'm even willing to pray specifically for my husband in new and different way (as I ask direction from God).


I actually had a friend point out to me that I had been praying for me and not for my wife. I really did not get it at first but after doing some thinking I realized that he was correct. I needed to pray for her. I was asking for selfish things for the longest time. I now pray for guidance in both of our lives, for peace and understanding for her. I no longer ask for my marriage to be saved, I only ask for peace while I follow the path that God has put in front of me.

Who knows, maybe He has her waiting at the end of a very long walk. I feel as though this is a test and I have only recently begun to realize that I have very little to do with the outcome. I have been more at peace since I came to that realization. Amazingly, she has been more peaceful towards me and some things have changed since I put her and my family ahead of myself when speaking to God.

I hope you get answers instead of more questions and best of luck to you.


----------



## Keenwa

Daisy2714 said:


> Sandc,
> 
> Please keep that in mind. This forum may be black and white but there is a lot of color between the lines of our lives.
> 
> Best regards,
> Daisy


Good for you for standing strong and knowing yourself. I am an atheist and don't pray but I respect the fact that you do. We all get through life in our own way, and there is no quick fix, and there is no right answer in my opinion. 

Your strength of character shines through. I don't think praying for yourself is "selfish". Sure if you are praying for things, and material objects maybe, but to pray for guidance, clarity, personal peace, seems quite self-less to me. I suppose praying for your spouse is a way of sending love his way, and I see that as positive. We can't fix anything until we can see our spouses in a positive light again, whether we continue to be in love with them or whether we simply love them but need to move on, we cannot move forward until we can love them for who they are and not who we want them to be. 

What about coming up with something you can actually ask your husband for Christmas? Think about what you might do together that might make things feel good? Perhaps agreeing to a truce, and saying "let's have one day where we pretend we just met and we go have fun at the ______" whatever that was you did when you first met that you loved to do?

One thing that has been useful for us, is our MC asked us to send each other "appreciations" each day. Just something that we appreciate about the other person, it could be the way he walks, how he cares for his kids, how he eats his yogurt, whatever... It has been good to think of a few positives in all of this negativity. I have also been surprised at what my husband has sent me, things I never thought he appreciated, and some that I did know he appreciated. Either way it is a nice thing to do.


----------



## Daisy2714

turnera said:


> What about writing out specific actions from him that would get you to that point, and ask for those actions?


That is a good idea. I will do that. Thank you.



Kolors said:


> I actually had a friend point out to me that I had been praying for me and not for my wife. I really did not get it at first but after doing some thinking I realized that he was correct. I needed to pray for her. I was asking for selfish things for the longest time. I now pray for guidance in both of our lives, for peace and understanding for her. I no longer ask for my marriage to be saved, I only ask for peace while I follow the path that God has put in front of me.
> 
> Who knows, maybe He has her waiting at the end of a very long walk. I feel as though this is a test and I have only recently begun to realize that I have very little to do with the outcome. I have been more at peace since I came to that realization. Amazingly, she has been more peaceful towards me and some things have changed since I put her and my family ahead of myself when speaking to God.
> 
> I hope you get answers instead of more questions and best of luck to you.


I do hear you. I think that Sandc was trying to say the same thing. I haven't dismissed what he said and what you are saying. I appreciate the outside perspectives you both have. As I said, I am willing to pray for my husband in a new way... as I seek God's leading. I know I don't have all the answers. I know I can improve. I'm constantly striving to do that. At times it is discouraging but I trust in the One who does have the answers. That gives me peace. Thanks again.



Keenwa said:


> Good for you for standing strong and knowing yourself. I am an atheist and don't pray but I respect the fact that you do. We all get through life in our own way, and there is no quick fix, and there is no right answer in my opinion.
> 
> Your strength of character shines through. I don't think praying for yourself is "selfish". Sure if you are praying for things, and material objects maybe, but to pray for guidance, clarity, personal peace, seems quite self-less to me. I suppose praying for your spouse is a way of sending love his way, and I see that as positive. We can't fix anything until we can see our spouses in a positive light again, whether we continue to be in love with them or whether we simply love them but need to move on, we cannot move forward until we can love them for who they are and not who we want them to be.
> 
> What about coming up with something you can actually ask your husband for Christmas? Think about what you might do together that might make things feel good? Perhaps agreeing to a truce, and saying "let's have one day where we pretend we just met and we go have fun at the ______" whatever that was you did when you first met that you loved to do?
> 
> One thing that has been useful for us, is our MC asked us to send each other "appreciations" each day. Just something that we appreciate about the other person, it could be the way he walks, how he cares for his kids, how he eats his yogurt, whatever... It has been good to think of a few positives in all of this negativity. I have also been surprised at what my husband has sent me, things I never thought he appreciated, and some that I did know he appreciated. Either way it is a nice thing to do.


Keenwa,

You have offered the best practical, solid actionable advice I've had since I joined this forum. Thank you. And thank your MC. My faith and respect for MC's has just been raised a very slight notch up.

Best regards,

Daisy


----------



## Honorbound

Hi Daisy,

First let me say I don't think I've ever read a more well written, yet heart breaking, thread. Your introspection, ability to articulate, and sense of honor are rare and commendable. Once or twice (maybe) a tear even came out - but I probably had something in my eye. I would give nearly anything to find someone with your intelligence and sense of honor that I was also attracted to... but I digress;

You are correct - you do deserve to feel cherished. We all do.

The fact that both of you have stuck it out this long, regardless of the reason, is a nod to the strength of character you both share. You mentioned that at one time in your relationship, your husband _did_ do all of the things that you wish he would do now (got up with you for breakfast, held hands, was more of a friend, etc). That would indicate to me that it _is_ possible to get that man back, but you are going to have to change the dynamic... probably drastically. Based off of your descriptions of how those things fell by the wayside over the years it sounds like he has fallen into the most common trap of long term relationships. It is even a common saying:

Familiarity Breeds Contempt.

He is obviously taking you for granted... because up until now he has been able to. For years. Keep a promise or two then right back to the same ol' same ol'. Correct? You are going to have to change that dynamic and _force_ him to realize what he has to lose. You've already discovered talking doesn't work.

As much as I hate to say it - and I really, really do - I think your idea of separation is on the right track. Even then, for it to work, he has to _believe_ beyond a shadow of doubt that it could very well be permanent. Despite your beliefs (and I commend those, by the way), you have to be willing to file for divorce if he doesn't change. He has to know to the bottom of his soul that it is not an empty threat... otherwise he will just stay true to form and do the minimum amount to get you to return - then back to the status quo. You don't have to go through with it, but only then will you have truly 'Hit him over the head' with the fact that you _need_ him to make you a priority in his life. Permanently.

If that still doesn't do it, I am afraid it is a lost cause... and I would hate that almost as much as you. You both sound like really good people who have just drifted apart and are stuck in diverging ruts. In my experience, truly good people are few and far between. My own experiences have been... heartbreaking and enlightening at the same time. I hope you don't have to experience the things I have. 

Someone told you earlier that you should count your blessings. They were correct... but so should he.

I hope you can get him to do so...


----------



## Daisy2714

Honorbound said:


> Hi Daisy,
> 
> First let me say I don't think I've ever read a more well written, yet heart breaking, thread. Your introspection, ability to articulate, and sense of honor are rare and commendable. Once or twice (maybe) a tear even came out - but I probably had something in my eye. I would give nearly anything to find someone with your intelligence and sense of honor that I was also attracted to... but I digress;
> 
> You are correct - you do deserve to feel cherished. We all do.
> 
> The fact that both of you have stuck it out this long, regardless of the reason, is a nod to the strength of character you both share. You mentioned that at one time in your relationship, your husband _did_ do all of the things that you wish he would do now (got up with you for breakfast, held hands, was more of a friend, etc). That would indicate to me that it _is_ possible to get that man back, but you are going to have to change the dynamic... probably drastically. Based off of your descriptions of how those things fell by the wayside over the years it sounds like he has fallen into the most common trap of long term relationships. It is even a common saying:
> 
> Familiarity Breeds Contempt.
> 
> He is obviously taking you for granted... because up until now he has been able to. For years. Keep a promise or two then right back to the same ol' same ol'. Correct? You are going to have to change that dynamic and _force_ him to realize what he has to lose. You've already discovered talking doesn't work.
> 
> As much as I hate to say it - and I really, really do - I think your idea of separation is on the right track. Even then, for it to work, he has to _believe_ beyond a shadow of doubt that it could very well be permanent. Despite your beliefs (and I commend those, by the way), you have to be willing to file for divorce if he doesn't change. He has to know to the bottom of his soul that it is not an empty threat... otherwise he will just stay true to form and do the minimum amount to get you to return - then back to the status quo. You don't have to go through with it, but only then will you have truly 'Hit him over the head' with the fact that you _need_ him to make you a priority in his life. Permanently.
> 
> If that still doesn't do it, I am afraid it is a lost cause... and I would hate that almost as much as you. You both sound like really good people who have just drifted apart and are stuck in diverging ruts. In my experience, truly good people are few and far between. My own experiences have been... heartbreaking and enlightening at the same time. I hope you don't have to experience the things I have.
> 
> Someone told you earlier that you should count your blessings. They were correct... but so should he.
> 
> I hope you can get him to do so...


Honorbound,

I'm truly touched. There is nothing else I can say to you but thank you. I'm afraid I also have something in my eye.

Best regards,
Daisy


----------



## SolidSnake

turnera said:


> What about writing out specific actions from him that would get you to that point, and ask for those actions?


I agree. I was also thinking that your response lacked specificity. Maybe since you are a quality time person something like:

-I want you to spend 1 hour a day with me in a meaningful activity, quality bonding time, etc. 

-I want you and I to have a date night once per week, and I don't want to cancel it unless there is an emergency or one of us is ill. 

-I want us to go hiking together (insert other fun activity that you both enjoy) at least 4 times a year. 


If he cancels your date night or whatever without a good reason, stop doing something for him that meets his needs. If he asks about it, you can say, "I have stopped doing x to meet your needs because your behavior has shown me that my needs are not important to you. I need to protect myself from being hurt by you over and over. Once you start meeting my needs in such specific way, I will do x again." 

It may sound petty, but at least you will not be showing him that you are ok with his actions, or lack of action. 

I hope that you don't have to separate, but I agree with Honorbound that you may need to if he does not change. You have more or less shown him through your behavior for years that his not meeting your needs is ok. You have still been there for him whether he has met your needs or not, so he expects the status quo. Some people might need separation papers to shake them out of their complacently.

Best Wishes.


----------



## Honorbound

Any updates, Daisy?

You haven't posted in a while... just wondering if you are okay. 

I hope everything is going well, or at least has improved for you.


----------



## Daisy2714

Honorbound,

I'm still here and I'm okay. Staying busy with the holidays. I took a trip to see one of my sons return from deployment and tomorrow three of my sons will be here with their families for Christmas. 

Regarding improvement; the deployment my husband is on gives a period of relief from the day to day sadness and frustration. That by itself is an improvement. 

I sent him the book "Love Busters" a while back. While I know it surprised him, he enthusiastically accepted it and asked me to send the other books I've been reading as well. Neither of us has attempted to discuss our thoughts regarding the reading material. However, he did make a comment about a week ago that let me know he is actually doing some reading. 

The book, "Love Busters", shows just how broken we really are. It has been helpful to me to see my own failings more clearly. Right now, I'm pretty much just processing the information I've been reading. Until he returns from the middle east, I don't think we can really make progress in any direction. 

I am standing firm to continue working on my self-confidence, reducing stress, and getting our affairs in order in the event things do not work out. I realize that sounds like I'm PLANNING to leave but it's not my hope. It's just that I know we are at a crossroad and it could happen. 

My hope is that he will take the initiative to restoring our relationship. It may sound selfish on my part but I've spent too many years being the one addressing our issues to no avail. From my perspective, if he is still unwilling to take real action toward addressing our marriage, there is nothing left for me to do. So I find myself in a waiting mode one more time. 

Over the next few months, I suspect he will finish reading the books and filling out the worksheets that accompany them. I am guessing he will declare that he has finally woken up to his mistakes and he will apologize for them. I'll update when I see these things happening. 

The real truth won't be seen until he is home again. Until he has been here for a few months. Right now, I know he will be home in May. I don't know for how long. He may be here for one month and then leave for a year or he may stay indefinitely. We still don't know what his future orders are.

I'm still not sure how I feel about him coming home. In some ways, it's been difficult with him away. Practical aspects of our life like getting the road plowed and day-to-day details are more difficult. Yet, emotionally, I feel like I have been able to breathe. To sigh without crying. To speak without being criticized, attacked, or made fun of. To engage in conversation without feeling despised or invisible. I'm not terribly anxious to face that again when he comes home. 

That all paints such an awful picture of my husband and he isn't awful. He's really a wonderful person. Everyone loves him. He's a good man, a hard worker, he has a generally positive outlook on life. I don't know why when it comes to me he is so different. Except for the truth in your previous post "familiarity breeds contempt". 

Thank you so much for inquiring. I don't know what your situation is but I sincerely wish you and yours a happy holiday season. I'll keep updating when there is something to update. 

Best regards,
Daisy


----------



## Honorbound

Daisy,

Thank you. I am doing surprising well. I've met a lovely girl and my outlook for the holidays has improved dramatically. I don't know how far it will go, but I am looking forward to finding out. I don't know if I just got lucky, or if someone is watching out for me. Either way, I am grateful.

I was just thinking of you and wishing you and yours the best. I hope you and he can make it work - you really do both sound like wonderful people... minus that one character flaw. I hope he can recognize it and correct it - for both of you.

You are far too eloquent to be made fun of, attacked, or ignored. I know I only have how you word your thoughts on this forum to go by... but I find the concept baffling, to be honest. You write very well. Your sadness, confusion, and pain can be felt on every page. I can't imagine your spoken words would be that different. 

I can't imagine someone that loves you and has been with you for so long ignoring that, either. I pray he doesn't.

Thank you for the update. I hope you, your sons, and extended family have a lovely Christmas.

Sincerely,
HB


----------



## doubletrouble

I've only read a few of the first posts, but one thing I might suggest is just doing things together that aren't kid or family related. What came to me is just go for walks with him. Just tell him to get his hat and coat, you're both going for a walk. It doesn't have to be a mountain trail or hard exercise, just be out in nature (or the neighborhood) together, at your own pace. 

Just a thought. Make new habits.


----------



## Keenwa

Daisy2714 said:


> Honorbound,
> 
> My hope is that he will take the initiative to restoring our relationship. It may sound selfish on my part but I've spent too many years being the one addressing our issues to no avail. From my perspective, if he is still unwilling to take real action toward addressing our marriage, there is nothing left for me to do. So I find myself in a waiting mode one more time.
> 
> Over the next few months, I suspect he will finish reading the books and filling out the worksheets that accompany them. I am guessing he will declare that he has finally woken up to his mistakes and he will apologize for them. I'll update when I see these things happening.
> 
> The real truth won't be seen until he is home again. Until he has been here for a few months. Right now, I know he will be home in May. I don't know for how long. He may be here for one month and then leave for a year or he may stay indefinitely. We still don't know what his future orders are.
> 
> I'm still not sure how I feel about him coming home. In some ways, it's been difficult with him away. Practical aspects of our life like getting the road plowed and day-to-day details are more difficult. Yet, emotionally, I feel like I have been able to breathe. To sigh without crying. To speak without being criticized, attacked, or made fun of. To engage in conversation without feeling despised or invisible. I'm not terribly anxious to face that again when he comes home.
> 
> That all paints such an awful picture of my husband and he isn't awful. He's really a wonderful person. Everyone loves him. He's a good man, a hard worker, he has a generally positive outlook on life. I don't know why when it comes to me he is so different. Except for the truth in your previous post "familiarity breeds contempt".
> 
> Best regards,
> Daisy



Hi Daisy,

i can relate to what you are saying. And I think it's really important, or at least is for me, to acknowledge that we really need do remember how we feel around our spouses and not what the outside perception is. I too am with what others call "a great man"... he's generous, kind, non violent etc.. but truth be told if you do not feel loved by him, then he is failing you, and you should not have to do all the work. I have been doing this for years, years... and I'm exhausted too. It is hard when you are with someone that others view from the outside as "great"... because it makes us look like the jerks for wanting ot leave. Only we know what happens in our home, and how we feel, and interpersonal relationships are just that. Interpersonal. I have come to the realization that if I don't feel loved it's not 100% my job to teach him to make me feel loved. He has to meet me half way. And there's the rub. So if he's trying and I still don't feel it, then how long to I hold in, wait around and just suck it up till he figures it out? 

I sometimes think it would be easier if I were just with what everyone thinks is a "jerk"... it is not selfish to feel how you feel, and it's not selfish to realize that your needs aren't being met. And it's ok to let go if you have to do all the work. 

I guess for myself the hard part is figuring out if I have done all I can, have I been honest with myself and also to give myself permission for it to be ok if it doesn't work out, or if I want something other than what he is capable of


----------



## Daisy2714

Keenwa said:


> Hi Daisy,
> 
> i can relate to what you are saying. And I think it's really important, or at least is for me, to acknowledge that we really need do remember how we feel around our spouses and not what the outside perception is. I too am with what others call "a great man"... he's generous, kind, non violent etc.. but truth be told if you do not feel loved by him, then he is failing you, and you should not have to do all the work. I have been doing this for years, years... and I'm exhausted too. It is hard when you are with someone that others view from the outside as "great"... because it makes us look like the jerks for wanting ot leave. Only we know what happens in our home, and how we feel, and interpersonal relationships are just that. Interpersonal. I have come to the realization that if I don't feel loved it's not 100% my job to teach him to make me feel loved. He has to meet me half way. And there's the rub. So if he's trying and I still don't feel it, then how long to I hold in, wait around and just suck it up till he figures it out?
> 
> I sometimes think it would be easier if I were just with what everyone thinks is a "jerk"... it is not selfish to feel how you feel, and it's not selfish to realize that your needs aren't being met. And it's ok to let go if you have to do all the work.
> 
> I guess for myself the hard part is figuring out if I have done all I can, have I been honest with myself and also to give myself permission for it to be ok if it doesn't work out, or if I want something other than what he is capable of


Keenwa,

I really hear your heart. I continuously ask myself these same questions and I think the same thing. It would be a thousand times easier if he were a jerk but he's not. He's a good man and I still love and admire him. 

This is such a difficult road to take. Even just thinking about the possible eventuality is difficult. I know it is for you also. I don't want to do it. I want everything to just be okay but it's not going to be. I am a few steps behind you (I believe) in my emotional battle but not in my resolve.

Thank you so much for your encouragement. Also, regarding the suggestion you made several days ago, I'm trying to implement it on my part. I have not asked him to reciprocate. It seems I'm just not willing to do that. It feels too much like I am once again being the one doing the heavy lifting. Call it pride. Call it resolve. Call it being stubborn. I just think he can at least meet me half way without instructions on this one.

Have a great day,

Daisy


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## turnera

When a man is a good man at heart but treats you badly, you have some control over that. I hope you'll also start reading book about boundaries. You can have boundaries that 'teach' him that he can't treat you poorly, or he will suffer a consequence (you leaving the room, you not riding in the car with him, things like that).


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## Keenwa

Daisy2714 said:


> Keenwa,
> 
> I really hear your heart. I continuously ask myself these same questions and I think the same thing. It would be a thousand times easier if he were a jerk but he's not. He's a good man and I still love and admire him.
> 
> This is such a difficult road to take. Even just thinking about the possible eventuality is difficult. I know it is for you also. I don't want to do it. I want everything to just be okay but it's not going to be. I am a few steps behind you (I believe) in my emotional battle but not in my resolve.
> 
> Thank you so much for your encouragement. Also, regarding the suggestion you made several days ago, I'm trying to implement it on my part. I have not asked him to reciprocate. It seems I'm just not willing to do that. It feels too much like I am once again being the one doing the heavy lifting. Call it pride. Call it resolve. Call it being stubborn. I just think he can at least meet me half way without instructions on this one.
> 
> Have a great day,
> 
> Daisy


Yes I hear you. I find this really hard. Christmas was hard, he seemed all excited because when I asked him to please not get me any gifts, and if he got me a gift to make it a small one, and I gave him suggestions of things which I would enjoy... ie a $25 bracelet etc... once again he ignored all of this and got me ski lessons. Once again, something he wants, not me. I have never been interested in skiing, except perhaps as a family but it's not something I am interested in whatsoever. So now he's booked us on 4 weeks of ski lessons. ho hum. He's proud of himself for having taken some initiative but when he asked me what I thought my answer was "I would have preferred if you'd offered them to me and asked me which day would suit me best or perhaps asked if I was interested in this"... his answer "well we do NOTHING together, and it will be fun."... Next time I perhaps should sign him up for something I really like and not ask him if he's interested. Argh again I feel like the ungrateful mother who has been given a "nice" present by my 7 year old son, and I should be thankful he thought of me (well him really but it's masked as thinking of me). But the problem is he's not my son, he's my husband...

I hear you on the aspect of wanting him to meet you half way. Today I feel really resigned to the fact that we really don't communicate well, and even after months and months of therapy it seem the more he tries to have initiative the more misdirected it feels to me. I feel really tired of trying to get him to get me. A friend who has left her husband said "It shouldn't be so hard". I feel this now. I mean how much effort do we have to put into this already? Today I feel like I"ve lost the desire to try, I don't want to have those conversations anymore, the ones that start with "how do you feel?".. argh. I mean I can recite the conversation for you each time. he says he's making progress, I don't feel it, I feel he appreciates me for all the things I do, all the initiative I take but not for me, but he doesn't know me at all. I don't need to have it anymore, this useless conversation. It's an endless cycle. Surely there is more to life than this.

Also I don't know if you were referring to the appreciation exercise but I have stopped doing it. The appreciations I get from him are all things like "you are so great with the kids".. these type of admiration appreciations that have nothing to do with our relationship. So I find it very telling. He sees me as his mother. Not as a spouse.


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## Daisy2714

Today has been a rough day. We are in the middle of a bad snowstorm and I live out in the country about an hour from my job. My son lives just 10 minutes from where I work so I decided to drive to his house last night for safety.

He is one of my twins (my oldest son). His wife was at work and the kids were in bed so we stayed up late talking. Eventually, the conversation led to his dad. I decided to tell him that I am considering separation. It was heartbreaking. The news hit him like a wave. He recovered quickly and didn't ask why. He admitted that he knew something was wrong for quite some time. The only question he had for me was to ask why I thought that after making things work for 23 years I am no longer able to? I told him I don't want to live the next 23 years feeling the way I have for the past 23. 

It was very emotional. He's the first person in the family that I have talked to about this. He took it much better than anyone else will and he let me know that. I've always known that when the day comes, I will be the one judged for leaving. I've made my peace with that.

All the same, telling him this brought home the reality of it in a way I haven't felt before. It's not what I want but looking ahead, I know it is coming. 

Today is Jan 5th. My very best friend in the world would have been 48 years old today. Except that her life was tragically cut short last year in July after her baby sister was murdered in June. I miss her more today than I have since she died. I wish so much that she could be here to just hug me. 

Thanks for listening. I just needed to vent a little.


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## Openminded

,


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## turnera

You only have one life. Use it wisely.


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## SolidSnake

Hi Daisy, I am currently reading the book Boundaries in Marriage. You would especially like it because you are a Christian, but the principals apply even if you are not. (I agree with most of it, and I just ignore any religious stuff that doesn't resonate with me.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

BIM is a MUST read, for every person.


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## Daisy2714

Thank you guys. I just ordered the book from Amazon.


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## Daisy2714

Hello again. It's time for an update and a question. Since I was here last, in some ways a lot has changed. In others, nothing has. My husband and I have been working through the workbook "Five Steps to Romantic Love" very slowly. Being half way around the world from each other makes it difficult to really make progress other than simply communicating about our issues. I'm not trying to minimize the value of that but the follow-up action isn't there. I have had rising hope that things might actually be different when he comes home. In our conversations, he really sounded like he's taking me seriously.

He will be home in six weeks. A couple of months ago he told me that when he gets home he would like for the two of us to take a week and go on a second honeymoon. Sounds good, right? I thought so. Gradually, he gave me more details. Like the fact that he wants this second honeymoon to be in San Antonio where we had our first honeymoon.... kinda. For a few days... maybe. 

Did I mention that he wants to fly into Houston (rather than San Antonio) to stop at his Dad's house to help with some landscape work his dad needs done? Did I mention that while we are "honeymooning" at his Dad's house I will be spending my time visiting my sister in another town? Or that I'm now realizing that this whole "honeymoon" is actually about visiting his dad and throwing in a day at the Alamo with me to make himself feel like he's taken care of his responsibility to "love" me?

Did I mention that it's breaking my heart because after trying again to make this marriage work I feel completely unloved, taken for granted, disrespected, and unimportant. 

To be clear, I love my father-in-law. I hold no animosity toward him and I enjoy seeing him. I simply don't enjoy being conned by my husband into a trip that was presented to me as a romantic getaway for us when it's actually not about that at all. To prove this point, I told him to choose. I told him that if he wants to go help his dad then he can but I would rather not go.

I am tired of competing with everyone and everything else in his life for attention. He said that he will not choose. That he doesn't see why we cannot do both. At the same time, he was quick to point out that taking the trip to see his dad would only cost a couple hundred buck for a round trip ticket. That tells me that he has already made up his mind. He's willing to go on our "honeymoon" without me. Is it even possible for me to get him to understand how betrayed I feel? That I don't want to be drug along just so he can feel better about taking a trip to cut down some trees for his father. 

Am I over reacting? I cannot look at this through any other lens than my own. I'm too close to it and I need some outside perspective. I'm chocking on the hurt that I feel right now and I feel like I am back to square one.

Daisy


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## doubletrouble

Honeymoons never involve in-laws, except to say good bye, we're off. I don't think you're off base here.


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## Honorbound

I have to agree with Doubletrouble - a 'second honeymoon' should be about the two of you... no one else. It sounds like he doesn't understand how much this means to you - or how important it is for your future together. We men are sometimes dense, and we don't get hints. 

I figure you have, but I have to ask - have you communicated to him, in no uncertain terms, how much his plan trivializes you and your feelings? Be blunt. Something along the lines of:

_"Look, dear, you don't seem to be seeing the 'big picture' here. Throwing me a bone isn't going to cut it this time. You either take me and this marriage seriously, or you will come back from Houston to changed locks and all of your things piled up by the street. I am no longer willing to come last place in your life. I'm either first like a wife is supposed to be, or not at all. Once that happens, there will be no going back."_

I just find it hard to believe that he is only half-assed willing to work on things while still knowing what the stakes are...

I could be wrong, though.


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## Daisy2714

Honorbound said:


> I have to agree with Doubletrouble - a 'second honeymoon' should be about the two of you... no one else. It sounds like he doesn't understand how much this means to you - or how important it is for your future together. We men are sometimes dense, and we don't get hints.
> 
> I figure you have, but I have to ask - have you communicated to him, in no uncertain terms, how much his plan trivializes you and your feelings? Be blunt. Something along the lines of:
> 
> _"Look, dear, you don't seem to be seeing the 'big picture' here. Throwing me a bone isn't going to cut it this time. You either take me and this marriage seriously, or you will come back from Houston to changed locks and all of your things piled up by the street. I am no longer willing to come last place in your life. I'm either first like a wife is supposed to be, or not at all. Once that happens, there will be no going back."_
> 
> I just find it hard to believe that he is only half-assed willing to work on things while still knowing what the stakes are...
> 
> I could be wrong, though.


HB,

To be honest, I have to say that I haven't put it in the words you have. I try to communicate to him how important this is and how I feel. However, if I give him the ultimatum you are describing, he will accuse me of being controlling and making selfish demands. Neither of these are my intention. I don't want to control him and I don't want to be selfish. 

During our conversation this morning, I let him know that because he is unwilling to make a choice about this, I will simply make the choice for myself. I told him that if I have to compete with his father for attention, I give in. I don't even want the "honeymoon" trip anymore and that he can just go see his dad without me. At this point, I simply would not be able to enjoy the trip with him. I have no doubt that he will interpret this as manipulation. Again, that's not my intention. I'm just tired of losing the fight so I give up. 

I am so confused right now. I feel like I'm d.... if I do and d.... if I don't. He said he would call me later today. I seriously am considering not answering the phone. I'm just too hurt to talk to him right now.

I will be as honest and open as I know how to be. I will answer questions from any of you if they are meant to help me. I don't mind being told what I am doing wrong and I am willing to take suggestions or criticism that are constructive.

You know I value your opinion. Thank you so much for posting. Regarding my response, I would appreciate any suggestions you have. I admit I'm a bit shy about giving him this sort of ultimatum but perhaps it's what I should be doing???

Daisy


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## turnera

"Honey, either you take me on a real honeymoon, or leave me out. You either want me or you don't. I'll wait and see."


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## Honorbound

Turnera hits it on the head. That is a much nicer way to put it, but still unambiguous.

Still, everything is building towards an ultimatum anyway. You can leave out the specifics, but that is still what is coming. 

You already know it.

At some point you are either going to have to draw a line or give up and accept that things are never going to change. Before it gets there, though, make sure you know exactly what _you_ want and how far you are willing to go... 

We talked about this before. I know you were hoping it would never get that far... but I don't think he is entirely listening or taking you seriously. It's more of the same "I'll smile and nod - maybe do something nice - then she'll leave me alone and things can go back to how they were". I'm afraid you are going to have to shock him out of his complacency. How you do that is up to you, but it can't be a bluff. You have to mean it. 

I'm sorry, Daisy.

As for the rest, the words 'controlling' and 'manipulative' are thrown around way too much. Everyone is controlling and manipulative to an extent. Those labels are _meant_ to mean someone using unseemly pressure (force, deception, blackmail, etc.) to get their way, but they seem to most often be bandied about by the person in the relationship that has no moral, or logical, leg to stand on.


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## doubletrouble

Daisy, don't let him manipulate you by telling you you're being manipulative.


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## SolidSnake

Hi Daisy,

Welcome back! 

I agree with the others. 

Find a nice, but firm way of saying that what he is proposing is unacceptable. A honeymoon is a private trip for just the 2 of you...to a secluded cabin, an island, etc. 

If he says you are being controlling, tell him that you are not, you are just enforcing your boundaries. Control is about other people, boundaries are about you protecting yourself and your own feelings from further hurt by him. 

You have a boundary against going on a family trip that is being misrepresented as a honeymoon or romantic trip for the two of you. He can do the San Antonio trip separately from/after your romantic trip. 

Tell him you view this as more of the same from him, and that it is not acceptable to you.


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## Blonde

If I was in your shoes, I would go on a fabulous vacations with some fun GF's and have the time of my life.

Next time, ask him if he wants to plan a vacation with you.

If not, do it AGAIN with the GF's or maybe your adult children?

San Antonio? Really??

I'd head for Europe, the Caribbean, Hawaii, Bahamas... and post a TON of pictures on FB of you having a BLAST!!! Eat your heart out H.


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## Daisy2714

Thank you guys.

I just got off the phone with him. I'm feeling just physically ill. I don't recall a time I have ever before said the things to him that I just did. 

I made it clear that this is my line in the sand. In fact, I used those words. I let him know that I have been advised to "hit him over the head" with how I feel ( used those words too) and told him he can interpret this however he wants to. I told him I am tired of being his last choice and I won't be the third wheel. 

Before he hung up, he asked me if I would like a trip to wine country. I told him it would have been nice but that right now I just don't even want to talk to him. I've never told him that before. He said he would call me tomorrow. He never did say what he intends to do.

Blonde, thank you for making me smile. I wish I had the nerve to do what you are suggesting. It's a fun thought. I'll keep updating. 

Please do keep sending your thoughts. Your posts today helped me through that phone call.

Thank you all,
Daisy


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## karole

Daisy2714 said:


> Keenwa,
> 
> I have been away for a few days but I read this message last night. I wanted to thank you. It's very insightful and I have (am) giving it a lot of thought. There is certainly some truth in what you are saying. Caring and kind, willingness to love my children without prejudice; those were certainly qualities I wanted. I can honestly say that while having a father for my children would obviously be a by-product of my choosing to marry, it was not what drove me to search for a husband.
> 
> At the time, I was pretty happy with my little family. I had my own place and was able to support us without assistance from family members or the government. We didn't have tons of extra money but we made do well enough. I was in school and looking at a bright future.
> 
> *What I wanted the most was real companionship. Someone (adult) to share my life with. Someone to grow old with. Someone to be friends with. Someone to make love with. Someone to share my darkest secrets with. I am an introvert. Basically, I don't have many friends. I don't need or want many friends but the friends I have, I'm very close to. I'm very real with them.
> 
> This is what I wanted the most as I decided to settle down. I didn't like the dating scene. I didn't like shallow relationships. I wanted something more real and lasting. Coming from the background that I did, it took me a while to even know what that should look like.
> 
> While we dated, he was that person. He wasn't terribly exciting but I reasoned that I had probably had more excitement in my life than I needed so it was okay. He was steady. That was a good thing. Obviously, he made me feel special. He made me feel loved and cherished. He was intelligent. He (seemed) to be focused on a bright future. He adored my children. He was patient with me.
> 
> He had a great relationship with his family. This was a huge contrast to the very abusive and dysfunctional family I had come from. He never yelled. He never made me feel afraid. He put me first in his priorities. He did all this while I was still wrestling with myself about why I just wasn't "feeling" that spark. Certainly I loved him, appreciated him, and respected him. It just took me a lot longer before I emotionally "needed" him. Eventually though, those feelings came. And gradually, his attention to me left.
> 
> I still remember the first morning he left for work without kissing me goodbye. I still remember when he stopped getting up with me while I got his breakfast ready and instead of sitting down and enjoying that quiet time together, he was running out the door with a piece of fruit while I tossed breakfast in the garbage. I remember the first time I got angry because he canceled our night out for the third time.
> 
> I remember when the work I did at home was no longer appreciated but instead it was criticized. I remember the years of broken promises. I remember the constant changing of career plans to the point of leaving me feeling very insecure and never knowing what tomorrow would hold for us.
> 
> I remember when I realized that he actually judged me rather than respecting me. Realizing that he saw himself as better than me. I remember the many times he's clearing despised me in the way he talks to me and the looks he gives.
> 
> It didn't take long for his love for me to die. Yet, if you were to ask him, he would say he loves me. He doesn't understand that what he really loves is the idea of me. The character I play in in the skit of his life. What I need is for him to love me, the person. Perhaps he never did. Perhaps I just thought so in the beginning. Perhaps he really cannot. I'm not sure.
> *
> On the other hand, maybe you're right. Maybe I'm the one who has changed. I keep thinking about that and I'm just not sure. If so, I must have been quite some time ago because I've been going around about this with him for nearly our entire marriage. Truly there are things that I ignored early on that I eventually could not ignore any longer. I'm sure of that. I don't know what that means now.
> 
> Thanks again. I appreciate your perspective. It has given me something to think about and consider that I haven't before.
> 
> My best to you.


Daisy, I think you should write the above in a letter to your husband. It is so honest, heartfelt, raw and touching. If those words don't get through to him, nothing will, in my opinion. 

I wish you the best. I hope and pray that your husband will come around and the two of you can work things out.


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## turnera

Daisy, that was excellent, what you told him. Women really do need to be that blunt to men, usually. Maybe he will finally hear it.


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## Daisy2714

Update time; he sent me an email and said that he won't be going to visit his dad. That he is choosing me. So this is good progress. We haven't talked about it since then. 

Thanks again for the advice and encouragement. There is a part of me that feels guilty for "winning" this and I'm compelled to say thanks by giving in but I know that would not be the right thing to do. It's just such a rare event I'm not entirely sure how to react to it. I'll learn though.... I'm a quick learner.

Best regards,
Daisy


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## turnera

Keep him guessing. He needs to feel you're upset with him.


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