# Using empathy to reduce escalation of conflict



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I read this this morning on this site: Relationship Issues - Help for Adult Victims Of Child Abuse - HAVOCA

_"Gottman found that in most marriages the wife is the one who tries to maintain the relationship. So, when she is unhappy, she complains and gets emotional. Men don’t like negative emotions, so they try to downplay the emotions and rationally solve the problem… or men withdraw. His withdrawal makes the wife even madder.

Sometimes she will suggest a truce or some solution, but often in the heat of battle both go on “emotional overload,” feeling contempt for each other. The couple gradually comes to think of and remember their marriage negatively. 

The failing relationship typically dies a slow death when the male shows little understanding, gets irate, and starts hard-core blaming (“You’re full of hate” or “You’re so stupid”), which makes it hard for the wife to give in or compromise. Finally, she grows bitter too and the marriage fails. 

Fortunately, if caught soon enough, the warring couple can learn to increase the positive feelings and actions and decrease the negative. Gottman says the main task is not to solve (or stop) every argument but to stop the escalating bitterness. So good communication skills are needed, especially “I” statements and empathy responses."_

How do you show empathy when your spouse is escalating?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

The Gottman quote you posted really spoke to me. It is describes the evolution of my relationship to h almost to a t. However I have found that showing him empathy backfires on me. H takes it as an acknowledgement that my concerns are unimportant and therefore disregards them.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

I see this article as a lot of blah blah blah by persons that have an agenda. 

"Women have more complaints about their spouses and marriages, compared to men (Brehm, 1985). Is this because women are more critical and want more or because men give less? I’d guess both. Women initiate the break up of dating and marriages more often than men. Although the underlying “causes” are unknown, these are the commonly stated marital problems (Weiten, 1986):"

Do woman have more complaints or do they just voice them more than men?

Maybe woman break up more often because they have other women or "friends" tell them to dump the guy, while a guy's friends will tell him to "fix it" and try to work it out.

How may times on TAM do you see a woman tell an OP to "leave him" or "divorce him" when situation clearly does not warrant that. Probably it is because she is unhappy with her own situation.

ETA: And, the W's attempts to "communicate" are often only by hints, or subtle comments, not clear unequivocal communication. So they complain that the H does not get or or is not listening. Of course he does not get it when the message was never communicated effectively.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Lila said:


> The Gottman quote you posted really spoke to me. It is describes the evolution of my relationship to h almost to a t. However *I have found that showing him empathy backfires on me. H takes it as an acknowledgement that my concerns are unimportant and therefore disregards them.*


This was my experience as well. In my ex-husband's mind, empathy was a sign of weakness - and admission of error. He saw no difference between an empathetic expression of understanding of his point of view and acknowledgement that his point of view was the _correct_ one. Once I'd validated his viewpoint, there could be no further productive conversation on the topic, because in his mind I'd just conceded that he was correct and I was wrong.

Empathy and "I" statements may work fairly well with two emotionally stable and healthy partners who are both willing to work toward better communication and win/win solutions to marital issues. In my experience, they're pretty ineffective as tools to improve marital harmony when dealing with someone who lacks either the ability or the willingness to understand that two people may have differing viewpoints without one of them being wrong. 

In other words, empathy fails when dealing with the strongly narcissistic.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

Rowan said:


> Empathy and "I" statements may work fairly well with two emotionally stable and healthy partners who are both willing to work toward better communication and win/win solutions to marital issues. In my experience, they're pretty ineffective as tools to improve marital harmony when dealing with someone who lacks either the ability or the willingness to understand that two people may have differing viewpoints without one of them being wrong.
> 
> In other words, empathy fails when dealing with the strongly narcissistic.


Pretty much EVERYthing fails when dealing with the strongly narcissistic.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The good Doctor would do well to study the cases where the wife is the main problem and include such cases, rather than proclaim that wives are unhappy because husbands are such and such.

Here in TAM its easily 50-50... maybe not in real life but not by much.


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## sdrawkcab (Jun 16, 2016)

My husband is great at leading with empathy. I tend to me the more volatile one between him and I. When either my husband and I feel we are having difficulty either understanding the other's perspective or not feeling understood, we've practice listening by mirroring.

One person explains their perspective in small bites. Each bite being paraphrased back by there partner until the paraphrase matches the persons intended view/message/feeling (whatever they are trying to convey). once they feel heard, they switch and the other person gets to feel heard.

In the end we often find that we've stepped outside of ourselves enough to let go of some of the emotion that may have surfaced. We spend more time listening to each other than talking at each other and shoving our feelings/ emotions/ views at each other.

It does take practice and we are definitely not perfect. Sometimes something comes up for me and I go straight to breaking dishes (metaphorically speaking)...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

My husband has never been one to downplay my emotions or withdrawal .. I am sure this has been a HUGE plus in our communication.. I also am not one to do this.. I want to open up any misunderstandings and get to the root of it /







of it..

We are both good listeners, and don't walk away from each other when we are dealing with something, no matter how heated it gets even...

I've never been a subtle type.. when I have something on my mind... he is going to hear it.. and it's going to be clear as day.. if he doesn't understand me.. he has brain damage.. 

Does my husband appreciate that.. heck yeah! Now on his end.. he is more subtle.. but since he's married to me.. If I am paying enough attention (wasn't in the past in an area or 2)... being the more assertive with a lust for intimate communication.. it's enjoyable/ even easy for me to "unearth" some of these things.. 

I get him to open up, I seek to understand him, asking "open ended" questions, how he feels.. this works for us.. he never pushes me away or feels it's too much..

Oh we still fight now & then.. this is a grave exaggeration >  but I think that's all normal.. our fights are passionate & always ends in make up sex.. I wouldn't even take them away.
@sdrawkcab said :


> *My husband is great at leading with empathy. I tend to me the more volatile one between him and I. *When either my husband and I feel we are having difficulty either understanding the other's perspective or not feeling understood, we've practice listening by mirroring.


 Yep.. that's us too..


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Mrs.MarriedDude will only have potentially upsetting discussions while either/both holding hands naked -facing each other. 

I have found it to be nearly impossible to be be mean, cruel, shout, hurl insults..etc.. while in that state. She calls it "seeing each other without armor". It works for us.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

john117 said:


> The good Doctor would do well to study the cases where the wife is the main problem and include such cases, rather than proclaim that wives are unhappy because husbands are such and such.
> 
> Here in TAM its easily 50-50... maybe not in real life but not by much.


You would think it would be obvious, wouldn't you?
@blueinbr makes an excellent point about people projecting their own marriage onto other peoples. With the OP, I fear she does this with her marriage and also with her own model of a good marriage.

For a basic insight into empathy there is a test. Compare watching a film in which a woman is hurt, with one in which a child is hurt and one in which a man is hurt. For most people the first two will be much more painful than the last. There is nothing wrong with that (I am no red pill'er), but it does show the "women are empathetic men are not" is even more simplistic than it seem. 

If a man minimizes his partners emotions over and over, he is a rubbish partner. Same if a woman does it. 
@Lila, your husband is an arse.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> My husband has never been one to downplay my emotions or withdrawal .. I am sure this has been a HUGE plus in our communication.. I also am not one to do this.. I want to open up any misunderstandings and get to the root of it /
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was going to write out some stuff but In truth really all that needs to be said is your husband is a lucky man. Never known a woman personally who would do 1/2 what you do to make your marriage successful.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Wolf1974 said:


> *I was going to write out some stuff but In truth really all that needs to be said is your husband is a lucky man. Never known a woman personally who would do 1/2 what you do to make your marriage successful.*


 Wolf1974.. but honestly.. that is owed *TO HIM*.. when one is married to a very giving attentive spouse... there is a great appreciation there - that overflows... (if we're not taking it for granted that is).. I should do a thread on this one day.. as that so often happens, and it's unfortunate .. 

For instance...let's take that away...I could be any poster here, depressed, struggling.. ANGRY issed:.. thinking over the fence.. I empathize with those dealing with such things... just looking back at my childhood ...sure it wasn't a romantic relationship, but I hated living there, I didn't feel loved, wanted.. I wanted OUT!....

This is how I dealt ... I blackened my step Mothers name to others.. Heck.. I could see me doing this in a marriage too! I'm not as naturally sweet as you may be thinking.. it solely depends on how I am treated.. I wouldn't put up with a lot of crap... I'd mouth back like a truck driver, or want to kill the guy.. 

I've told my husband a few times.. just reading what some women go through with men on this forum.. God knows what he has saved me from.. or where I might be today.. 

Why I insist on making myself look bad when you just complimented me.. I need to smack myself [email protected]# ...I just have to be honest.. and give credit where it's due... He has helped ME be a better person.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Wolf1974.. but honestly.. that is owed *TO HIM*.. when one is married to a very giving attentive spouse... there is a great appreciation there - that overflows... (if we're not taking it for granted that is).. I should do a thread on this one day.. as that so often happens, and it's unfortunate ..
> 
> For instance...let's take that away...I could be any poster here, depressed, struggling.. ANGRY issed:.. thinking over the fence.. I empathize with those dealing with such things... just looking back at my childhood ...sure it wasn't a romantic relationship, but I hated living there, I didn't feel loved, wanted.. I wanted OUT!....
> 
> ...


I am not sure he would have done as well with a different woman, SA. I agree he is very lucky to be with you.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> *I am not sure he would have done as well with a different woman, SA. I agree he is very lucky to be with you*.


This I will agree with you on this Jld! ... I could easily see my husband being taken advantage of...It appears most women, especially younger...they use, overlook, friend-zone, get bored with the Good guys who sincerely cared for them.. and pine after the conceited Alpha Jerks (often to their demise I might add) ...

I was always turned off by those sort of men... I think much of it has to do with my childhood being rough.. so I wanted to *hold on tight *to goodness when it walked into my life.. 

There is a scripture that speaks how everything works together "for good".... I've thought about that many times over the years...









Some BAD things can work out *for good*... lessons learned. IF that is what saved me from making a bunch of mistakes with men.. this I am thankful for..


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MarriedDude said:


> *Mrs.MarriedDude will only have potentially upsetting discussions while either/both holding hands naked -facing each other.
> 
> I have found it to be nearly impossible to be be mean, cruel, shout, hurl insults..etc.. while in that state. She calls it "seeing each other without armor". It works for us*.










.... I'm a little different...I can still unleash some madness when naked.. there is a plus to this... my husband is turned on by "aggressive women" ...

We've had some crazy funny moments in the midst of a bedroom brawl... the intensity of this just heightens the passion.. 

He's accused me of starting fights just for "make up sex".. this is not really true... but it ALWAYS leads to making up, with a climax, back in each others arms.. I can think of plenty worse things!


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Wolf1974.. but honestly.. that is owed *TO HIM*.. when one is married to a very giving attentive spouse... there is a great appreciation there - that overflows... (if we're not taking it for granted that is).. I should do a thread on this one day.. as that so often happens, and it's unfortunate ..
> 
> For instance...let's take that away...I could be any poster here, depressed, struggling.. ANGRY issed:.. thinking over the fence.. I empathize with those dealing with such things... just looking back at my childhood ...sure it wasn't a romantic relationship, but I hated living there, I didn't feel loved, wanted.. I wanted OUT!....
> 
> ...


I'm sure that you have both complimented one another. But don't discredit yourself. I have been the caring and giving partner and not all women appreciate or care about that. My guess is over time he learned to trust that he can open up to you and you won't betray or use that vulnerability against him. Some of us never get to see that


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Wolf1974 said:


> I'm sure that you have both complimented one another. But don't discredit yourself. I have been the caring and giving partner and not all women appreciate or care about that. My guess is over time he learned to trust that he can open up to you and you won't betray or use that vulnerability against him. Some of us never get to see that


Yes...It means a lot to me that whom I am with CAN open up like that.. in every way...that vulnerability.. I WANT THAT... I do not expect Superman... 

I understand my role in helping that along, so he can feel that freedom...

I'm not perfect.. why would I expect he has to be... as you can see some of my postings...I start a stupid fight now & then (probably about 4 -5 times a year)...

Once I set our "Spice jar" on fire cause he was ignoring it for over a year...(I was excited about making that, did a thread on it here & everything .. it was a way to get him to try new things, we agreed on it)...I kept waiting & waiting..and WAITING .....NOTHING.... it all came to a head one day..... I was LIVID (of course this happened during pms)...

Looking back these fights are hilarious....and you can laugh.. it's Ok..







But yeah.. even that.. I make up for it, will readily admit my shortcomings.. and thankfully he can see he LET ME DOWN TOO... he gives me grace.. I give him grace ... It's all good.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> I'm sure that you have both complimented one another. But don't discredit yourself. I have been the caring and giving partner and not all women appreciate or care about that. My guess is over time he learned to trust that he can open up to you and you won't betray or use that vulnerability against him. Some of us never get to see that


Maybe some of you did not choose as wisely as Mr SA did.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Maybe some of you did not choose as wisely as Mr SA did.


Can only go with the information provided at the time. When you are lied too about who the other person really is not much you can do about that.

Not many people walk down the aisle thinking well this is the dumbest thing I have ever done. Most of us think the other person is going to be the person they act and say they are


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Can only go with the information provided at the time. When you are lied too about who the other person really is not much you can do about that.
> 
> Not many people walk down the aisle thinking well this is the dumbest thing I have ever done. Most of us think the other person is going to be the person they act and say they are


Pays to do some research, Wolf. Not usually much payoff for passivity in partner selection.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

jld said:


> I read this this morning on this site: Relationship Issues - Help for Adult Victims Of Child Abuse - HAVOCA
> 
> _"Gottman found that in most marriages the wife is the one who tries to maintain the relationship. So, when she is unhappy, she complains and gets emotional. Men don’t like negative emotions, so they try to downplay the emotions and rationally solve the problem… or men withdraw. His withdrawal makes the wife even madder.
> 
> ...


Boy, is this a post I can get fully behind! Am I not always screaming about the virtues of Empathy?

What it boils down is that Empathy is just information. When we fail to empathize, we are just showing a fear and inability to accept the truth. From there, it leads to (men typically, as women are far better empathizers) disregarding the emotions of others...... as they interpret it as an attack on them.

Isn't that rather obvious, as to why relationships would implode? If one's wife is not emotionally well, the husband will give additional emotional poison for her to deal with. Just consider if a wife was pregnant and giving outbursts of negativity. Is this anything she can really control, considering the hormonal surges in pregnancy? Pregnancy can take a woman's Emotional Intelligence (ability to use emotions intelligently) from 80/100 down to 1/100.

I always tell those I advise that you just have to listen, but it is natural for the one to be defensive, especially if they are being told they are wrong. This just gets in the way of what would lead to growths in intimacy.

Just listen and ask questions (out of curiosity) for understanding. You will always find that the outburst of negativity was not the underlying cause for him/her to become upset. When we instantly get defensive and argumentative, we guarantee that partners won't connect on a deep level.

Gottman also found that it is very helpful for men to not offer "practical advice" too early in an argument. This just drives the point home further. Stop trying to be right and listen.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Relationship Teacher said:


> Boy, is this a post I can get fully behind! Am I not always screaming about the virtues of Empathy?
> 
> What it boils down is that Empathy is just information. When we fail to empathize, we are just showing a fear and inability to accept the truth. From there, it leads to (men typically, as women are far better empathizers) disregarding the emotions of others...... as they interpret it as an attack on them.
> 
> ...


RT, your help would useful in CWI. Tons of people lost in victimhood over there.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Pays to do some research, Wolf. Not usually much payoff for passivity in partner selection.


Well since you are trying to stir things up as usual and I won't take the bait I'll just throw it back on you. You tell me what else I should have done? Knew the girl since I was 14 years old, dated 5
Years before marriage, knew all her Friends family and coworkers. 

So by all means you tell me what other "research" I should have done
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

MarriedDude said:


> Mrs.MarriedDude will only have potentially upsetting discussions while either/both holding hands naked -facing each other.
> 
> I have found it to be nearly impossible to be be mean, cruel, shout, hurl insults..etc.. while in that state. She calls it "seeing each other without armor". It works for us.


That's because you've already handed her full control of the situation.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Well since you are trying to stir things up as usual and I won't take the bait I'll just throw it back on you. You tell me what else I should have done? Knew the girl since I was 14 years old, dated 5
> Years before marriage, knew all her Friends family and coworkers.
> 
> So by all means you tell me what other "research" I should have done
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am trying to empower you, Wolf. Not leave you feeling at the mercy of a woman in your life. As long as you think there was nothing you could have done differently, or could now, you will feel powerless. And that is surely a vulnerable place to be.

Did you initiate deep conversations with her before marriage? Did you encourage her to share her heart freely with you? How did you react when she would get angry with you? Did you seek to understand her anger, or just walk away and tell her to stop being angry?


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Relationship Teacher said:


> I always tell those I advise that you just have to listen, but it is natural for the one to be defensive, especially if they are being told they are wrong. This just gets in the way of what would lead to growths in intimacy.


... and in situations where she *IS* wrong?????

eg just blew 20k on the credit cards gambling.
eg spend the insurance money on new shoes figuring the chance of claim in small.
eg being the 'one with budget skills' (cause she works at the bank/is accountant) and cheating on the joint tax declarations (to the tune of tens' thousands dollars), or refinances the house & gets secret personal loans AND signs up for HP greater than joint incomes.
eg absolutely refuses to be party to financial plan for relationship then gets all withdrawl "because we never have money" (but refuses to get a paid job - does 40+ volunteer work)

Sometimes you told you're damn well wrong 'cause you're _WRONG_! suck it up cupcake, wear the stinky panties you earned, admit it and ffs fix it. No Daddy's magic wallet here.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> I am trying to empower you, Wolf. Not leave you feeling at the mercy of a woman in your life. As long as you think there was nothing you could have done differently, or could now, you will feel powerless. And that is surely a vulnerable place to be.
> 
> Did you initiate deep conversations with her before marriage? Did you encourage her to share her heart freely with you? How did you react when she would get angry with you? Did you seek to understand her anger, or just walk away and tell her to stop being angry?


It's not empowering at all to be told that you passively pick partners when for many of us we were lied to. Just because in your bubble of life that hasn't happened doesn't mean that many of us here, men and women , haven't been duped at one time or another. Maybe some empathy for others is what you really need JLD

But I'll play because I really do want to know from your perspective how I am somehow responsible for this:

Yes we had many deep conversations. At nauseom I would say lol. We did pre martial counseling in a non church setting at my insistence so yes things were discussed at end out marriage and our relationship

Did I encourage her to share her heart. Not sure what that means but my interpretation is did I encourage her to share her feelings. Yes I always was the one to check in on us. Hey are we doing ok, are you happy ect

When she got angry we would discuss but honestly she never got angry often. She mostly always got her way, my choice , and so she had very little to be angry with me about. If she was angry or upset about other things I could only talk with her about those when she chose to share them which she didn't always.

So what else
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

spotthedeaddog said:


> ... and in situations where she *IS* wrong?????
> 
> eg just blew 20k on the credit cards gambling.
> eg spend the insurance money on new shoes figuring the chance of claim in small.
> ...


As stated, empathy is only information. Talking to this person might lead to a point where they explain the basis for their feelings, inviting remedial actions to be taken.

When we focus too much on the surface issue, we almost guarantee that no constructive dialogue can take place. The only thing that matters is connecting and resolving issues. If we act out of righteous indignation, we can ensure more of the same.

In the cases you highlighted, what might help is a coaching approach, where you try to get that person to realize what they did was wrong, via careful questioning. You ask questions that (kindly) force them to explain the situation, increasing their awareness, which also leads to their empathizing.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Wolf1974 said:


> So what else
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did you get upset (sad or angry) often, when she got upset?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> It's not empowering at all to be told that you passively pick partners when for many of us we were lied to. Just because in your bubble of life that hasn't happened doesn't mean that many of us here, men and women , haven't been duped at one time or another. Maybe some empathy for others is what you really need JLD
> 
> But I'll play because I really do want to know from your perspective how I am somehow responsible for this:
> 
> ...


I always get the sense from your posts that you feel victimized, Wolf. I do not see you as a victim. And I do not think it is healthy for you to see yourself that way. 

You were young when you started together, 14, correct? She may have outgrown you. People do grow and change over time. If they do not grow together, there is a real risk of fracture.

But when she had her affair, you did not try to work things out, correct? You just told her it was over?

And it sounds like you did not press when she was upset before the affair? If she did not want to talk, you just left it?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Relationship Teacher said:


> Did you get upset (sad or angry) often, when she got upset?


No. And kinda a strange response. Why would I get upset is she was upset by something that happend at work?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> I always get the sense from your posts that you feel victimized, Wolf. I do not see you as a victim. And I do not think it is healthy for you to see yourself that way.
> 
> You were young when you started together, 14, correct? She may have outgrown you. People do grow and change over time. If they do not grow together, there is a real risk of fracture.
> 
> ...


If I had pressed it that would only lead to resentment. You can only offer to make the food for the hungry person. Can't force feed them.

I was victimized by the affair that's true. No one deserves that. But I won't discuss the merits of that with you since you have never been cheated on and from your posts it's clear you don't get that end at all.

Do I see myself as the victim of our relationship? No not really. I knew she was a damaged woman and had issues with men but I also believed her when she said she loved me and wouldn't do that to me. Naive as I found out, but I was 26 at the time and did all the things I thought I could or should do to prevent me getting cheated on. In the end you can't fix another. She is what she is at the core.

And yes I did leave when she cheated. I would advise all to do the same. Cheating is a series of decisions that is a literal FU to your entire relationship. No one deserves that. If your spouse can't at bare minimum not cheat they aren't worth being with. 

In truth, and I have posted this many times here, I am way better off now than I was married. To some degree so is she because she is alone and not dating which prevents her from taking her issues out on others. All this said doesn't mean I don't wish for a different path with a good woman whom I would still be married to today. I did my due diligence and at the end of the day just flat out got taken advantage of. I'm not the first or last person who will ever experience this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Wolf1974 said:


> Well since you are trying to stir things up as usual and I won't take the bait I'll just throw it back on you. You tell me what else I should have done? Knew the girl since I was 14 years old, dated 5
> Years before marriage, knew all her Friends family and coworkers.
> 
> So by all means you tell me what other "research" I should have done


There are plenty posters here who vouch for their spouses *changing* after the vows... so it happens.. I don't know. .. It would make the world a sure sight easier if everyone we met just showed who they really were .. at their core.. the good bad & ugly all laid out.. so we'd know what we're getting... I always liked the fact you were one on this forum that felt we should know about one's past.. 

I have tried to make sense of *WHY* some people change so much.. maybe a traumatic experience, maybe something in them was repressed & they came out of their shell.. it's an impossible thing to predict with clarity.. so we do the best we can with what we've experienced & lived -with that person, plus their history. 

I was exceptionally honest from the get-go when I met my husband .. he was my best friend, I shared things I would share with all my besties with him...nothing I say to a girlfriend he'd be surprised to hear... He know the UGLY going in.. that I can have a temper on me.. and there are things that I do expect.. none of this scared him away.. I was also very soft and romantic.. he loved to be wanted like that.. what I did expect.. he expected of himself...so it wasn't pressure or anything.. 

@Wolf1974 said:


> Did I encourage her to share her heart. Not sure what that means but my interpretation is did I encourage her to share her feelings. Yes I always was the one to check in on us. Hey are we doing ok, are you happy ect
> 
> When she got angry we would discuss *but honestly she never got angry often. *She mostly always got her way, my choice , and so she had very little to be angry with me about. *If she was angry or upset about other things I could only talk with her about those when she chose to share them which she didn't always.*


 Sounds like she was another woman who stuffed her emotions ... why do people DO THIS is the question.. was it something she learned from childhood (Not the man's fault).. maybe she feared your reaction (shuns conflict) ..do you think you could have been more "approachable" ?

Or she instinctively felt (whether it was true or not).. that the situation/ dilemma/ her needs was not going to get better.. basically she lost hope.. and gave up , so then she just "ate it".. and found herself growing resentment...unbeknownst to you .. 

I think this happens often.. where it would have been better to have those very difficult discussions, out on the table.. no matter the struggle.. working it out to find your peace with each other.. 

Would any of those fit the profile of your ex Wolf? 

My husband is on the passive side, the man does not like conflict..... I will admit my lousy attitude some of the days he came home from work (back when we couldn't conceive) -it wasn't very inviting back then.. so this had him take a step back from me.. not to flare me up in any way.. I could have done better .. My bad.. Looking back.. I wish I could get those years back.. he was just trying to support me when I yearned for more children.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

spotthedeaddog said:


> That's because you've already handed her full control of the situation.


Well....thats a Theory.

I counter with....i have sex daily
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> There are plenty posters here who vouch for their spouses *changing* after the vows... so it happens.. I don't know. .. It would make the world a sure sight easier if everyone we met just showed who they really were .. at their core.. the good bad & ugly all laid out.. so we'd know what we're getting... I always liked the fact you were one on this forum that felt we should know about one's past..
> 
> I have tried to make sense of *WHY* some people change so much.. maybe a traumatic experience, maybe something in them was repressed & they came out of their shell.. it's an impossible thing to predict with clarity.. so we do the best we can with what we've experienced & lived -with that person, plus their history.
> 
> ...


This is the only conclusion I was ever able to come to. She flat out just has daddy issues and because she could never retaliate on him she took it out on those who loved her. Her perception was that her father abandon her when in reality her mother isolated her from her father by having an affair, moving to another state to live with that man, then fighting for full custody. Her mother made her affair justifiable and her dad the villain and so that is how she perceived the world. That's why I said earlier I think she purposely doesn't date because deep down she recognizes that she isn't good for anyone in any relationship. 

Now I knew she had issues, hence why I insisted on both a long courtship, lots of talks about how a marriage between us needs to be and pre marital counseling. The great debate is did she recognize she was messed up and shouldn't get married but saw me as an escape and used me or was her problems just so imbedded that she honesty didn't know she couldn't handle happiness? I honestly don't know but I lean toward the first.

I encouraged her for years to speak to a counselor. Maybe all she has lost has sparked that in her to do so now. Dunno and don't care anymore. We have a decent working relationship with our kids and I know I am the better role model for our daughters than she saw growing up. I think lesson learned is something Dr Laura says. If you try to rescue the damsel in distress all you end up with is a distressed damsel. And I have to live with that
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Wolf1974 said:


> This is the only conclusion I was ever able to come to. *She flat out just has daddy issues and because she could never retaliate on him she took it out on those who loved her. Her perception was that her father abandon her when in reality her mother isolated her from her father by having an affair, *moving to another state to live with that man, then fighting for full custody. Her mother made her affair justifiable and her dad the villain and so that is how she perceived the world. That's why I said earlier I think she purposely doesn't date because deep down she recognizes that she isn't good for anyone in any relationship.


 So she just accepted her mothers affair ... how did she justify this in her mind.. what did her father do.. or her mother led her to BELIEVE he did ?? I've seen the after effects of brain washing when a child is a product of divorce and one parent wants to come out smelling like a rose.. some children are not strong enough to THINK on their own or seek out the real truth.. but are easily influenced (or should I say brain washed) 

Speaking of that.. did you see this recent thread.. if you read the last post on there... even I wasn't close with my father...I was sort of a "damsel in distress" too.. 

>> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies...igure-shapes-future-womans-relationships.html



> Now I knew she had issues, hence why I insisted on both a long courtship, lots of talks about how a marriage between us needs to be and pre marital counseling. The great debate is did she recognize she was messed up and shouldn't get married but saw me as an escape and used me or was her problems just so imbedded that she honesty didn't know she couldn't handle happiness? I honestly don't know but I lean toward the first.
> 
> I encouraged her for years to speak to a counselor. Maybe all she has lost has sparked that in her to do so now. Dunno and don't care anymore. We have a decent working relationship with our kids and I know I am the better role model for our daughters than she saw growing up. I think lesson learned is something Dr Laura says. If you try to rescue the damsel in distress all you end up with is a distressed damsel. And I have to live with that


 what did she do or act like (those behaviors) that you felt she needed counselling...sounds you had some red flags here.. but felt love could conquer all.. many do... sometimes it can even.. 

Love is always a RISK really..


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> So she just accepted her mothers affair ... how did she justify this in her mind.. what did her father do.. or her mother led her to BELIEVE he did ?? I've seen the after effects of brain washing when a child is a product of divorce and one parent wants to come out smelling like a rose.. some children are not strong enough to THINK on their own or seek out the real truth.. but are easily influenced (or should I say brain washed)
> 
> Speaking of that.. did you see this recent thread.. if you read the last post on there... even I wasn't close with my father...I was sort of a "damsel in distress" too..
> 
> ...


Well her mother is a bit of a man hater as well. The kind that say men are always the cause of her problems and so forth. She does NOT have a good relationship with her mom. As a matter of fact she refuses now to see her now I guess. That whole family is mess to be honest lol and it's clear to see that the Apple didn't fall far from the tree. What's interesting is even though she at times despises her mother is literally just like her. Guess we all become our parents in some way.

Hard to put a stamp on the behaviors. She would just be depressed at times but when I would ask or question I would only get the I'm fine routine. Then her father, step father, died and she changed dramatically. Became very introverted. It was in that 3 years leading up to her affair that she was noticeably not herself. I tried several times to get her to go to counseling, I figured If she isn't talking to me she needed to talk to someone but she refused. She had the opportunities and I would have supported her no matter what with the exception of the one thing she did which was cheat. Tough lesson to learn I guess.


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