# Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I've started a couple threads so my story is sort of segmented on the site. New readers, don't do what I did. Keep a continuous thread going. 

Anyhow..

Yesterday my STBXW and I met with an attorney to do a cooperative divorce. I was very cold, stern and obviously angry. She was more gracious.

Backstory: She had an affair, fell in love, decided to leave me, moved OM in with our kids when I went on 2 months travel, and is moving into a new place with OM in two months. I moved into a new place last week. 

I thought I could keep hating her. I can't. I just want her back. 

The problem is she is the only woman I've ever loved (together 8 years, married 6) and *I know I'll get smacked for saying this* is the one I want for life. I feel like she is making a big mistake. Yes, she left her first H to be with me and now she is leaving me to be with someone else. No, she is not psycho, and no I am not codependent. I just know that she is the one but that she is flawed and now hooked on someone else. After reading so much on TAM, all of this seems preventable. 

What do you do when YOU KNOW that she is the one but you can't have her? She is the mother of my children. She is the light of my life. She is a good person despite her actions. She claims she doesn't view family and commitment the same way (obviously) but I know that's BS. She adores being with family. She is splitting our family up and at great sacrifice to me and the kids. 

I can't move on. I'm even feeling suicidal again.


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## TNman (Dec 24, 2012)

Staystrong-get some help for yourself from a counselor, friends, and family. I know exactly how you feel believe me. She is NOT the person you think she is, want her to be, or thought she was. She is NOT!! You have a romanticized fantasy picture of her in your mind. I know you will not want to read these words and they seem impossible for you to accept-but this is the TRUTH. You have strong loving feelings-find another who is genuine and will appreciate you and your love. BE STRONG!-we are pulling for you. When a relationship is more valuable than your life you are codependent by definition. Get your counseling and break free of this black hole-please.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

staystrong,

Please seek help for your suicidal thought today.  Get on (or back on) meds if needed.

If she left someone to be with you then left you for her current OM, I'd be willing to bet she'll eventually tire of him too in favor of someone else.

She's a serial cheater who needs that constant high of a new and exciting love. This isn't your fault, it's a character trait in her

Find someone who is in it for the long haul and show her what she threw away.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Counseling does nothing.

Meds - They don't solve the underlying issue. 

She has her weaknesses but I don't care. I wouldn't say she's chasing the high. Both her relationships were long ones (9 years then 8 years) so I'd say she has more of a problem of falling out of love and not working on the relationship. 

She's the only one I want. This is the problem. I've been through this for months now and I always come back to the same thing: I somehow failed to keep the relationship vibrant on my side, and I failed at busting the affair when it was revealed to me. 

Once you find real love and have a family, you only have one chance at doing it right. I'm starting to buckle under the pressure. Is there no [email protected] way of breaking her away from OM? I don't see how she can do this to me and her kids. She has to be under some sort of spell.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

1-800-SUI-CIDE.......... 24/7.................copy this SS.....PM me if you need to talk about ANYTHING!


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Until she hates the OM she won't come back. Your only hope is N/C and wait it out if R is what you want. You can't beg. You can't reason someone out of an A, and you have no control of her actions. 

You have to plow through the pain. I was in your situation and through filing for D and doing the 180, now 9 months later she's making comments that lead me to think she wants to return to me. But I'm now ready to move on without her. I guess the passage of time helped me see what she really is and I don't want to be with that kind of person. Trust is gone.

I can't go through this again, and most likely she would cheat on me again, that's her history and I can't risk it. If you R your wife most likely will rip you apart again by cheating/leaving. Think long and hard about this.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Maincourse - I'd take the risk. In a heartbeat. Because nothing is worse than this insanity. I would love to effing R, I've been trying to since D-Day. Recall that I am in a foreign country and must remain here if I want to see my young ones with any frequency. 

Chuck71 - I've called the hotline before. It did not help more than any friend would. And I'm tired of bothering my friends and family. I decided if I'm going to do it, I'll just do it. No stretching it out. It's a hideous thing to do but I may have to do it. Thanks for the PM offer.

I just can't comprehend this. Playing the tapes over and over and it doesn't make any sense. We were meant to be together.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Stay strong I am sorry you're in so much pain. Think of the kids at a time like this. Reach out to friends and family again. They would be more than worried if you decide to hurt yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

A few know. 

It's an awful thing to do to the children, I know. I love them so much. But if I don't R with my wife, I may just cave in. I feel I don't have a choice. I'm in the hole and I can't stand being here. Without her by my side, life is meaningless to me. Except for the kids, of course, but they are young enough that perhaps it won't be too traumatic in the long run. Anyhow, I shouldn't be talking about that aspect of it. I don't know what I should be talking about at this point. The usual TAM response to my position is "Move on - you're better without her". But it's not true. I am worse without her. She improved my life and I improved hers. We made each other better. We were the couple other couples envied. Why was I so blind? Why was I so neglectful of the relationship? I thought our love was enough to withstand the strongest storm a marriage could face.


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## mama2five (Dec 29, 2012)

StayStrong- please know that most of us on TAM are going thru the same intense pain that you are feeling. No one in this world is worth taking your life over. You are in charge of your own hapiness. We get so caught up in the whirlwind of love that we allow others to dictate happiness for us! Think of your children,they are a part of you and they will always need you! reach out and get the help you need-one day you will look back on this and be glad you did!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

StayStrong,

Do like your username. Don't make any decisions that will change your life while you are feeling this way.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Staystrong, hang in there and wait it out. So if you off yourself, aside from devastating your loved ones, what if a month from now she has a change of heart and wants to R? You'd be gone. Get some meds, keep posting here, talk to your family, that's what they're there for! Don't give up.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> No I am not codependent.
> 
> What do you do when YOU KNOW that she is the one but you can't have her?
> 
> I can't move on. I'm even feeling suicidal again.


"Codependency, by definition, means making the relationship more important to you than you are to yourself. It's kind of a weird phrase, and it doesn't sound like it means a one-sided relationship. But that's what it is. It means you're trying to make the relationship work with someone else who's not."


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

It that's the definition, then fine I'm codependent. If the shoe fits, wear it. I have to admit it doesn't make a shred of difference anymore. 

Maincourse, she's not going to R. She's signed a lease with OM, after living in our old place for over 3 months with him. They've passed that test. The "facing reality" test. Their bubble did not burst. That's it, it's over. 

I honestly think it's time to throw in the towel. It sounds so melodramatic but I can't deal with this anymore. I just want out. I never understood suicide until now - it does make a lot of sense in some cases. I don't know if I want to post about this anymore. Maybe this is a private matter.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

You have my #.........


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## mama2five (Dec 29, 2012)

Staystrong-you must do exactly that and STAY STRONG! This will pass. Please reach out to your family!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

People here care about you more than your spouse does. And right now...we can help you more than she can....we're all survivors. You will too.


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## SecretTears (Jul 18, 2010)

Staystrong: I'm sorry you are in so much pain. I know what you are going through. It is tough. I also know what you mean when you say you don't want to bother your friends and family about it anymore. But you can bother us here. We've all been there and know how it feels and hopefully we can help you through the dark tunnel you're walking through. 

As for counseling, I think you should try another therapist. I had to try 3 out before I found someone who could help me and who I feel wasn't useless.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

All in your head SS. Nothing is further from the truth. Your life doesn't begin and end with Her. She's not the One and not worth waiting for a second more. Let her live her life - whether she is going about everything the wrong way in your eyes shouldn't be your concern anymore w/ the exception of your children of course. The sooner you realize this the better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

You don't want to hear the usual fluff TAM responses about moving on?

Okay.

Here's reality for you.

Your ex has a pattern of leaving men for others. You thought you were the exception, you're not. This was established by you and you only.

You'd rather kill yourself while living in delusion than face the cold reality.

That's a shame for your 3 and 6 year old daughters.

Why is it shame you ask?

It's a shame because in 10 years your sweet little girls will be 13 and 16, old enough to make there own decisions on what they want to aspire to in life.

Yet, you can't see past your own self delusions of grandeur to your ex.

You are so caught up in the "now" that you'd rob your daughters of there ONLY father because of the choices of ONE woman.

It's very sad how some of you men on TAM cling to the thoughts of how "she's the only one I ever want to be with" yet are selfish enough to remove the "only father your kids will ever have".

What's even more sad is how you completely negate the impact you can have on your daughters lives simply because you cannot cause impact on there mother.

It's time to get your head out of your ass.

You have kids to raise, it's your god damn responsibility and duty to them.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> You don't want to hear the usual fluff TAM responses about moving on?
> 
> Okay.
> 
> ...



Dude...you seriously need to snap out of it. This is bu!!****. I'm not going to holly coddle your nonsense. How selfish of you to even think this route with those kids. 

I've been there...we have all been there..._but don't bail_. 


Recognize it and get some dam help. You need to STOP right now and get a grip and pick up the phone and call someone to come get you and figure this out. You need to be admitted right away for an evaluation and help to get you out of this! 

*You are dwelling on something you cannot control*...you will never ever be able to _control_ your ex. She has made her choice and you need to embrace it. You don't have to like it...he!! none of us do...but take responsiblility in your life for what you can control. _Yourself!_ 
You know dam well this line of thinking is wrong...you know you have two daughters that need you...how about you stop being self centered and consider what _they need. _ _This divorce isn't all about you and how you feeeeeeeel about it..._
*It's much more than that.*


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Stella and Up are giving it straight, please listen to them.

StayStrong. You need to do just that and stay strong. Doesn't matter if you can't do it for you and it sure as hell doesn't matter if you can't do it for her as you shouldn't anyway. No, if you can't find any other reason to hang in there, you already have the main one staring you in the face.

You have kids. You have to man the **** up for them. You feel like you have lost the only one for you but you are talking about punishing them for it. Nothing stupid you do will be punishing the one you have lost, you will only punish your kids. Start fighting for them. You have issues in your self driving you away from them but at the moment you are surrendering to those issues. You need to fight back.

Your kids are worth it and I think you may just find in the process of fighting back for them, you are worth it too; but worry about that later, right now, think of your kids, kids don't just need a Mom, they need a Dad too.

Please man, do not punish your kids for what has happened.


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## mama2five (Dec 29, 2012)

Staystrong- just checking in on you. Today is a brand new day..you can choose your path forward with your kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

A friend of mine 'exposed' my intent after I had a frank conversation with him about it. I'm not happy because now I have family and friends anxious. So I just told them my friend was overreacting. I see how easy it is to lie and cover the truth. No wonder cheaters get away with so much. 

Part of my pain is that I feel I was too passive after D-Day. I did not expose wide and high and my wife pre-empted me in that department. Trickle truthed, claimed marital probs, etc. Therefore I still shoulder the shame of not having done the appropriate job upon D-Day (she confessed, btw) and exposing her and him. I was too devastated, too afraid to lose her. Hadn't found TAM yet. Didn't think how effective it could be. I was too much of a freaking wimp. They basically choreographed their exits from their marriages. So I'm pissed at myself. Have been for 6 months. I just want this to end. I'm aware I have two lovely kids but who wants an angry, sour, depressed dad around? Some pains are too much. I know other people in the world have more pain than I do, but this (the betrayal and abandonment) is simply one I can't take. I've been stripped down and tossed aside. In a foreign country. I don't think I have what it takes to rebuild. I feel as though some self-destruction program has executed and lines of code are going by. I couldn't stop my wife from leaving - how is anyone going to stop me? I can't stop myself. I don't know. I would ask "how to get through it?" but I don't even know if I want to anymore.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

You may feel broken now but you wont always feel that way. You need to give yourself the chance to find that out for yourself by hanging on.

A long time ago i was very close to ending my suffering. I mean blade poised close. It would have taken no more than a second to do it.

I am still here as i decided to fight instead and to my surprise life did go on and not only that but the happiest days of my life came after that day.

Its always darkest before the dawn.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

You know that unbearable pain of betrayal, rejection, and abandonment that you feel right now? 

If you off yourself then your children will feel that X10 for the rest of their lives. 

Don't be selfish.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Maybe I just need to get to the blade against the neck to know. 

Received a 'concerned' email from the wife, if you can call it that. She said to me "yes, love comes and goes and you didn't expect that for us, for you..and now I can see the deep pain you have, like a void inside." Love comes and goes - wow. What a view on life. It comes.. oh, did you turn your head? .. it's gone now. You didn't notice? It "went" because she let her walls down with another man. That's not comes and goes, you heartless b*tch.

I love my children but I don't love my life. I really want out. Isn't that okay? What the hell, they always say children are resilient. The separation and divorce has shown that. 

Being the suicidal guy makes me feel like even more the loser. It's an interesting and vicious cycle.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Is it ok? in a word.. NO.

Your kids will be affected for life if you do this. Life may go on for them but they would never be the same.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

So she's a heartless b*tch for not caring enough about you.

But you say "what the hell" in regards to your children? 

No, it's not okay. What she did is not okay. What you are talking about doing is worse.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

You told your friend so it would get back to your ex.

It got back to your ex and you aren't happy with the response.

Still focusing on her and not your girls.

You have 2 girls who will become 2 women in your life that need a strong father.

That's all that matters now.

You slander your ex for turning her back on your marriage, the 'commitment' she made to YOU.

Yet, you have no problem turning your back on your 'commitment' to your DAUGHTERS.

Poor you.

Poor self delusional you.

Proclaim you feel like a 'loser' for thinking about suicide.

How powerless are you?

Apparently you have the power to take your own life.

But not make the choice to continue on in life?

Really?


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

The harsh reality that is divorce is enough for a kid's plate.

So, as their father, you want to serve them a heaping side of suicide?

Sounds legit.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MSC71 (Aug 1, 2012)

Accepting its over is very hard. But there are reasons you want her back and most likely have to do with yourself . Counseling will help that. You dont want to be with a cheater. .....get some help and figure out why you are feeling this way......I promise you this, if yoj push through this there will be a day when you look back and are glad this all happened.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-I don't have kids so do not read my past threads. Read Zillard's....he does. Look how he evolved.....I have watched him from start to now. If you asked Z he would be the first to tell you, he is NOT special. You can follow his lead. He acted with a clear head. Next time you're down....read it. Yes it will take a few hours but it shows how you break through the pain.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

And you better get your ass checked into this thread asap so we know your ok.

You have got some straight talking in here but only because we care enough to do so. If a bunch of strangers you never met worry for you think what it would do to your kids.

I believe you can do this fella.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I told my friend in confidence not expecting him to tell my wife. He doesn't normally speak with her, and hasn't since D-Day. My wife knowing the depression I'm in only makes things worse for me because now I have to deal with some feeble attempt on her part to show she "cares". I know I sound bitter but I've been through the wringer with her already. Paradoxically, I love who she is/was and would do anything to turn back the clock. We all know this feeling. 

Do you think I want to leave my children fatherless? Of course not. I know it's weak, selfish, cowardly.. all of that. I just think I've gotten to the point where nothing matters. I'm at the end of my rope. Not in a "I can't get out of bed" kind of way (still have those days) but a "I'm lucid and functioning but I still feel this way because it never stops" kind of way. There's no repeat for me. One-itis. She was my wife, my love, and she replaced me. I was a good husband and father, and yes I'm sunk. And yes you can love a cheater. 

I've read Zillard's thread. I respect Z's way of dealing with things. However, my wife and his wife are completely different, as are our circumstances. 

Anyway, it's not like I would off myself tonight. There are things I'd have to take care of first. Oy vey - even death requires logistics if you want to do it right. 

Thank you for the posts so far. Can we stop discussing my depression? I prefer to discuss one-itis and what it really means..


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## oncehisangel (Oct 13, 2012)

S.S my god daughter lost her mum to suicide after the breakdown of her marriage when she was eight years old. Her dad has moved on but she hasn't.

Every day, and I mean every day it has affected her. 
She doesnt have relationships that last. She is bulimic and anorexic.
She trusts no one except me. I have seen this young woman cry from her belly over the loss of her mum. She has nightmares to this day.

She is now 21. I am all she has. 

Not one day goes that she does not wish her mum was here.
At times she hates her.

do not think for one moment that you won't scar your babies from suicide.

love and peace.....and strength.


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## All of a sudden (Jan 24, 2013)

I have been there, the darkest place you can be. The pain is unbearable, you just want it to end. husband wanted divorce , we have 4 children. I didnt think i could go on without him. He treate me like **** as i was crying and couldnt move fo days. He didnt care, this right before Christmas. My kids were with me and they were taking care of me, couslening me. Thats so wrong. I thought i would never find someone who would want 4 kids. I was done, in too much pain that i could handle. Talking to friends and counslers saying maybe its for the best, or let him go think about your kids. I love my kids with all my heart, but i was so fu&ked up icouldnt see the only thing that mattered was right in front of me. So i took an insane amount of prescription pills and went to sleep. Suprise the next day i woke up to my children in bed with me and i was alive. Thank God. What a dumb idea i had. My children love me so much. **** that man. I had angels in front of me.

Hes back and we are working on our marriage. I dont know if it will work or not because so much happened. It doesnt matter though if he leaves, i will go through tons of pain again but hes not worth my death. No one is. YOU CANT TAKE BACK DEAD. Everything else in life is fixable one way or another.

I still love my first love, but that was many years ago. He is now dying of cancer. Do i feel awful yes, will i run to be by his side no. I have My new life. You can love again. Ive been in love 3 times in my life. Last time with current husband.

Your babies are in love with you. Your babies only have 1 daddy. Spend time with them. See how they look at you, or wrap your arms around you. That is true love. You dont want to miss those precious gifts. Do not destroy your childrens life. 

I saw no light at the end of the tunnel. Its just a long tunnel, which isnt easy but it does get better. Don't [email protected] even think that suicide is an option. You will miss everything in your childrens future and damage them forever. Hey they might follow in your footsteps when they are older. F your wife she is not worth yours. I am still in pain everyday. I love to see the sunset, beach, the forest, waterfalls and my kids.
Ive been where you are. Total desperation, its okay, you will be okay. Maybe not today but eventually you will be okay. 
Please know that you are loved by many. Dont give up you are worth gold to your children. Y


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I imagine it would be harder for our girls if they lost their mom than their dad. Either way it's sad. I'm sorry for your god daughter. 

Why do people commit suicide? Because they are weak? No.. many do it because they just can't go on.


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## oncehisangel (Oct 13, 2012)

S>S the first man that affects every other relationship is a girls daddy sweety......

this too shall pass...it always does.. that's my promise.


praying for you


you have no right to take your life ..leave that up to the big guy please 

you are going to be fine.


this.....tooo...shall...pass......


go ring your kids...be a dad.

please


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Children are 61% more likely to commit suicide if one of their parents did before 18. Don't believe me? Look it up


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

All of a sudden said:


> I have been there, the darkest place you can be. The pain is unbearable, you just want it to end. husband wanted divorce , we have 4 children. I didnt think i could go on without him. He treate me like **** as i was crying and couldnt move fo days. He didnt care, this right before Christmas. My kids were with me and they were taking care of me, couslening me. Thats so wrong. I thought i would never find someone who would want 4 kids. I was done, in too much pain that i could handle. Talking to friends and counslers saying maybe its for the best, or let him go think about your kids. I love my kids with all my heart, but i was so fu&ked up icouldnt see the only thing that mattered was right in front of me. So i took an insane amount of prescription pills and went to sleep. Suprise the next day i woke up to my children in bed with me and i was alive. Thank God. What a dumb idea i had. My children love me so much. **** that man. I had angels in front of me.
> 
> Hes back and we are working on our marriage. I dont know if it will work or not because so much happened. It doesnt matter though if he leaves, i will go through tons of pain again but hes not worth my death. No one is. YOU CANT TAKE BACK DEAD. Everything else in life is fixable one way or another.
> 
> ...


Yes, I can imagine waking up after taking a bunch of pills and realizing it was a bad idea may shake you back into things. 

Your husband came back. Case in point. Mine is not - she's head over heels with OM. But she's the only one who can fix this the way I need it to be fixed. 

You can't take back dead, that is for sure. And yes, our children do love us. You said " Don't [email protected] even think that suicide is an option. " but you tried. It could have gone the other way for you. You also said "I am still in pain everyday. I love to see the sunset, beach, the forest, waterfalls and my kids." Nothing brings me joy anymore, except for my kids and even then - sad to say - not the way it used to be. I don't know what happened. The collapse of the family was a real blow to my ability to love as much.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Bullsh!t................when daughters reach pre teen and teen years they look to their FATHER for guidance. Don't believe me? Listen to TAMers....

My now ex never had her dad's approval. We met when she was 32. It still bothered her, even though she said it did not.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

oncehisangel said:


> S>S the first man that affects every other relationship is a girls daddy sweety......
> 
> this too shall pass...it always does.. that's my promise.
> 
> ...



You're very sweet, but how do you know this too shall pass? I just want to scream "I'm not going to be fine!". It's been 6 months of hell. Nightmarish hell and my situation is not as bad as some others on this board.


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## oncehisangel (Oct 13, 2012)

because S>S it always does....


you have good to come.

lots of good.


dont miss out on that. 


your children love you. 

now you have to love them enough to love yourself again.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> Bullsh!t................when daughters reach pre teen and teen years they look to their FATHER for guidance. Don't believe me? Listen to TAMers....
> 
> My now ex never had her dad's approval. We met when she was 32. It still bothered her, even though she said it did not.


So true. My X never knew her dad. She was dragged along while her mom went through guy after guy - like your stbxw is. Some of the dudes were nice. Some beat the crap out of her. 

She had no daddy to protect her. 

Look where she is now. Going from guy to guy, being abusive, and pushing away everybody that loves her. Everybody. Because if Daddy left and mommy did a crap job, then she must be worthless.

Our situations may be different. But my X and your daughters could turn out very similar.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> Bullsh!t................when daughters reach pre teen and teen years they look to their FATHER for guidance. Don't believe me? Listen to TAMers....
> 
> My now ex never had her dad's approval. We met when she was 32. It still bothered her, even though she said it did not.


They look up to the guy who was left by their mother? Aren't I already diminished in their eyes? What the heck can I tell them about anything? I couldn't keeping the relationship together with their mom - once they know that I fear their image of me will plummet. 

Anyhow, I'm very tired at the moment. Going to go to sleep. Thanks for your posts. 

I guess one-itis is a secondary issue.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

zillard said:


> So true. My X never knew her dad. She was dragged along while her mom went through guy after guy - like your stbxw is. Some of the dudes were nice. Some beat the crap out of her.
> 
> She had no daddy to protect her.
> 
> ...



Does having a 9 year relationship and then a 8 year relationship qualify as going from guy to guy? I'm my SBTXW's current relationship with be a long one. It's the pattern with her. 

Pushing away those who love her. Possibly, yes. 

I really don't want my girls to suffer. Trust me. I just know that everywhere I turn it's more of the same. I feel I'm locked in to wanting my wife back. I can't deal with split families - it's unnatural to me.


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## oncehisangel (Oct 13, 2012)

this too SHALL PASS


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Does having a 9 year relationship and then a 8 year relationship qualify as going from guy to guy? I'm my SBTXW's current relationship with be a long one. It's the pattern with her.
> 
> Pushing away those who love her. Possibly, yes.
> 
> I really don't want my girls to suffer. Trust me. I just know that everywhere I turn it's more of the same. I feel I'm locked in to wanting my wife back. I can't deal with split families - it's unnatural to me.


If she follows that pattern, how many dads will your kids go through? Guy to guy. 

Whether the family splits or not is out of your control. 

Many things are unnatural. Like suicide.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-listen to oncehisangel........she speaks from experience......


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## oncehisangel (Oct 13, 2012)

go rest S.S and make sure you touch base in here when you wake up ok?


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## SecretTears (Jul 18, 2010)

staystrong said:


> They look up to the guy who was left by their mother? Aren't I already diminished in their eyes? What the heck can I tell them about anything? I couldn't keeping the relationship together with their mom - once they know that I fear their image of me will plummet.


I have to respond to the father issue because I am the daughter of an addicted, depressed, angry man who left his wife (my mom) for a mail order bride when I was 19 years old. He hasn't spoken to me since. He ignores me and my brother, no calls or emails for birthdays, graduations etc... I am over 30 years old now and I still cry when ever I think about him (like right now). I am going through a separation now and I would move heaven and earth for him to be here with me, comfort me and offer words of wisdom even after all he has done. I miss him so much. Please don't put your girls through this.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I've started a couple threads so my story is sort of segmented on the site. New readers, don't do what I did. Keep a continuous thread going.
> 
> Anyhow..
> 
> ...


Actions speak louder than words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## All of a sudden (Jan 24, 2013)

I know our stories arent the same. But the pain and anguish utter despair are. Mine came back for now but i think he might just be doing it unt he can run his business into the ground for not having to pay spousal and child support. I dont know if its a false r.

I said its not an option cause yes i went there, and luckily woke up. The damage it would have caused my children and parents plus the world is a beautiful place.

You dont know she wont come back, people on this board have had there ws come back even years later. If she doesnt, she does not deserve you. You are more important in this moment in time then she is. You are loved. I know the love your children give you is different than adult love but if you can just see through the veil of despair for a moment, they love you unconditionaly. A childs love is sweet and innocent. It is just as good, just different. 

If you kill yourself, you will certainly end your pain on this earth. You will leave numerous people in the pain you are feeling now. It will never go away for your daughters.

Time, time, time is what you need. Yes its going to hurt like hell, yes youll think being dead is easier. It willpass, it will get better. You just have to ride a ****#y wave for awhile. I couldnt move, sleep, eat, i could only cry and feel pain in every part of my body and soul. I couldnt take care of my kids, they took care of me. I didnt shower, change my clothes,brush my teeth or hair. I could barely recognize my face, so swollen from crying. I was shattered to the core. My life ended when he left. Coming here and reading the boards was my first step in thinking different. 

Im worried about you. Please know there is more in life than just her. There is you and you are very important. Dont let another human take away you.

Plus we dont know whats on the other side. What if its worse....


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



staystrong said:


> I imagine it would be harder for our girls if they lost their mom than their dad. Either way it's sad. I'm sorry for your god daughter.
> 
> Why do people commit suicide? Because they are weak? No.. many do it because they just can't go on.


Its because they are too weak to move on.

Your "one-itis", is your infatuation with the delusion of your ex and marriage.

You simply refuse to face reality.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Pathetic cop out just like that? Not even going to do anything to 'try' and pull yourself out of this for the sake of your little girls? 

Wow man...if you were in front of me I'd kick you in the balls ...if you had them. I'm so pissed off right now reading your lame excuses for blatantly choosing this path. As if your the only one in the world who feels pain and wants to die...ya yanno what...so have I...but I figured out a way to take back control..._you need to figure it out_ ...you haven't given yourself enough time. You have done nothing to help yourself out of this but wallow in your own self pity and make yourself worse....don't you recognize this? WAKE THE FK UP DUDE! 

You have three reasons to live...2 kids and you. 

Why not...agree....to go in? How about a last ditch effort to check in? Go into the ER...get admitted...go 'try' and get help...

Fact is...if your going to do it your going to do it...right? Right? I mean face it....no one NO ONE is going to ever be able to stop you right? 

So what do you have to lose? How about you have a fking level headed moment for the sake of your girls and call 911 or a friend or drive yourself in...go in...and tell someone exactly what is happening to you...just go in....and give those girls one last chance to keep their dad...can you do that? 

Do the right thing...actually go figure out if you 'can' live man....you actually 'have not' done all you can do...you have not exhausted all your resources to live....you have not gone in....you have not gotten emergency help...you have not been evaluated...you have not given yourself proper time...you have not allowed others to 'stop' you...you need to take one more 'real' step to be fair...

You want to be fair don't you? Don't be such a pxussy about it at least....be fair...use your head...'be fair'. Give your kids the fair chance...make the call...or go in...seek the help...not the ***** cop out....the honest raw... 'I'm in trouble my kids need a dad help'...

You owe it to your girls to do all you can ......I'm sure you care about what they think of you right? 

Let them know you tried because you love them. 

_Go in. _


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Stella with the a$$ kicking 

It's been six months since D-Day. I had started some anti-D's around month four but stopped because I didn't like the side effects. My counseling experience was no good but that's because I had someone inexperienced I think. The two months I was back in my home country I was getting lots of support from family, friends and TAM of course. There are not a lot of English speaking counselors near me here in her country though.

I think it's everything put together:
- Being betrayed and left
- Having the family split apart; losing my role as husband
- Being separated from her family
- Being a half-time single parent here with no support
- Having to stop the business I was working on
- Not having friends or family here
- The disrespect (her moving OM into our place; I'm very angry about that) and having to deal with her as a co-parent
- Me still wanting her. The "one-itis". Or delusions according to Up n Over though I disagree with him. Those were the happiest years of my life, and all very *real* until she met this interloper. 
- Feeling as though I failed (re marriage and affair-busting)

So here I am again, isolated in this country. No one is as fun or special as my STBXW is, the cheating notwithstanding. And if I'm in my home country, I'm still upset and I'm removed from my family. 

I guess we're expected to "man up" and move on, but this is the first time in my life I've felt paralyzed and "stuck". I think I'm quite literally crushed. Planning an exit doesn't seem that surreal or morbid an idea anymore. It's a dark path, so I do want to talk about it. I know what dark paths are like - they entice you to some end and blind you about reality. Don't know, I just feel like I blew my big chance, and I hate the way my wife handled this. It's a real blow.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

You really need to start thinking straight and get her off that pedestal.

It is her that has treated you this way, this is the way she is. She is a cheat and liar. Accept the reality of now and stop thinking of her as the fantasy you had before. If that was ever real, it is long gone. Seriously just look at what she has done.

You need to take a long hard look at yourself. What could you do to make yourself a better stronger person. I don't mean someone else entirely but think of what the best possible version of you would be. What changes would you need to make to be that person in reality. 

Your focus has to come away from her and go inwards. What don't you like about the way you think and ac t? If you are anything like me, when you do this, thgere will be plenty for you to work on.

Then instead of berating yourself for these'weaknesses' and 'failings' get your ass into gear and start working on those things.

I tell you now, straight up, you will NEVER EVER be happy with your ex even if she did come back. Simply because you are so unhappy with yourself.

I am not an amazingly strong person. I still struggle everyday with my feelings for Mrs.C. I struggle with depression, self esteem and motivation. SOme days I do good in doing things for "me" but others I struggle. On those days I look to my boys. When I am not strong enough to do it for me, I am strong enough to do it for them.

Everyone that should have loved me as a kid abandoned me. Every one of them. I will not abandon my boys and that is what you would be CHOOSING to do your kids. You will be choosing to abandon them. You don't have to. You don't even want to or you wouldn't be making cries for help. No you would be CHOOSING the easy path and the only people that would pay the price are your kids.

I feel for you, i really do, but you have kids, be a parent FFS.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

K.C. said:


> I tell you now, straight up, you will NEVER EVER be happy with your ex even if she did come back. Simply because you are so unhappy with yourself.


I disagree - I'm unhappy as a result of the break up. However, there are a lot of things I learned as a result of this experience. This is the curse of the having your life turned upside down. You can glean lessons from the sobering experience but you can't apply them retroactively. There's no reset button. No CTRL-Z. 

I am working on myself. Mostly superficial things, e.g. appearance, which I previously neglected. Working on tough love. Working on not just being a parent, but an individual with a set of needs.

It's still a lot of doom and gloom, though. My basic "program" is that married people stay married through thick and thin. So that was a wake up call. Infidelity and Divorce were never things I saw first hand.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

See that sounds a lot healthier than your previous posts. The fact you are talking about ending it because she is gone shows your happines has become dependant on her.

Without fixing yourself without her you would not be able to have a healthy relationship with her anyway.

Its the same realisation i had to come to for me. My happiness was dependant on her. Now i am busting my balls to fix that.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I love my children but I don't love my life. I really want out. Isn't that okay? What the hell, they always say children are resilient. The separation and divorce has shown that.
> 
> I have a friend, or should say, had a friend, who killed himself. He just couldn't stand his life anymore. That was about 4 years ago. He left behind a young daughter, I think she was 10 at the time. Less than a year ago, she killed herself too, said she couldn't live any longer without her dad.
> 
> ...


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I disagree - I'm unhappy as a result of the break up. However, there are a lot of things I learned as a result of this experience. This is the curse of the having your life turned upside down. You can glean lessons from the sobering experience but you can't apply them retroactively. There's no reset button. No CTRL-Z.
> 
> I am working on myself. Mostly superficial things, e.g. appearance, which I previously neglected. Working on tough love. Working on not just being a parent, but an individual with a set of needs.
> 
> It's still a lot of doom and gloom, though. My basic "program" is that married people stay married through thick and thin. So that was a wake up call. Infidelity and Divorce were never things I saw first hand.


How can you saw you've never saw infidelity first hand? Your wife left her husband for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Ya well news flash buddy...your ex wife isn't the only vagina in the world yanno. You and your delusional rah rah about how 'she's the only one for you and soul mate' blah blah...' Yea...dude...no she's not! That goes two ways and your not 'her way'...she's not anyones way...she's left two men now...right? You and a previous? This is the woman for you? A serial cheater? Uh..see a pattern here? I'm sure there were good times yadda yadda yea great we all have them but she's no one to grow old with...she's always going to be seeking that rush of someone new. 

ok you been burned and yea I sure as shxt agree she's dwelling in your home with some OM...not kewl. Not ok...but what are you going to do about it? Stew? Oh wait...you are doing that...

You have it in your head you could just wake up one day and she'd be right back in your arms and your world would be a better place and you would feel all warm and fuzzy inside again...'another delusion'...dude you'd be a wreck consistently wondering when she'd be cheating again...who's she's with...where's she's going...who's she talking too...etc. etc...(because she would be) 

She's not who you once had. Period. And she's not going to be. You need to get mad here and stop the pity party crap. Get your life together! Clean up your act inside and out. Again man...she's not the only friggin vagina out there! I'm not saying go bag some azz...(although I bet in your case right now I bet it would help) but go talk to some women! Go make some friends...yea your in a foreign country....I assume your staying there for your girls right? Make a life for yourself then! Lose weight/gain weight...change your hair...buy clothes...whiten your teeth...join a gym...flirt...smile...put a condom in your wallet...hold some doors open for some women...hail a cab for one...damn dude...find your testosterone! Show your daughters that your a strong man and you can 'bounce'...and for god sakes BOUNCE! 

You mentioned things you were 'working on'...see...keep doing that...and you said you tried anti depressants...imo...you need to try something else...seriously...i'm not a doctor...but I think it would help get you out of this slump...some 'happy pills' at this time is worth a try...go see a doctor...pull yourself out of this...do more than what your doing... 

realize you got burned...accept it...don't fight it...and stop hanging onto the 'we could be again' crap....that light has gone out...you need to 'live' for you...start to 'live selfishly'...screw this selfish ex of yours...she's a destructive home wrecker...guard your heart and head down a path of self preservation...follow the rest of us on here...were all doing it...there's no dam reason you can't. Your not an exception to the rule just because your hurting and have your 'woes me' goin on. Get over it dude...your not any different than the rest of us out here suffering and angry at the world for getting burned. 
Your on TAM aren't ya? Tells me your reaching...so start embracing...be mature...and start talking about some positive 'fu'cx you ex wife' changes your going to be making...


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> Ya well news flash buddy...your ex wife isn't the only vagina in the world yanno. You and your delusional rah rah about how 'she's the only one for you and soul mate' blah blah...' Yea...dude...no she's not! That goes two ways and your not 'her way'...she's not anyones way...she's left two men now...right? You and a previous? This is the woman for you? A serial cheater? Uh..see a pattern here? I'm sure there were good times yadda yadda yea great we all have them but she's no one to grow old with...she's always going to be seeking that rush of someone new.
> 
> ok you been burned and yea I sure as shxt agree she's dwelling in your home with some OM...not kewl. Not ok...but what are you going to do about it? Stew? Oh wait...you are doing that...
> 
> ...


Fvck yer awesome 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

If only it were that simple, Stella. I do think having children makes a difference in terms of the pain. And yes, having to see her makes this pain worse. There are many other factors at play, and they all suck. Day after day after day after day.

familyfirst09, that is a shocking story. Very sobering.

I went out with some friends tonight, but again the same old thing: broke down outside for about 20 minutes. I "said goodbye" to my kids in my head and it was gutwrenching. Too hard to do for real perhaps. A passing train gave me the idea that a train would be a good way to go - instant and effective. I promised my friend I would go see another doctor about meds. I do want to give it every chance. My fear is nothing will change, since the underlying reality does not change. 

KC, yes my happiness is dependent on her because of what's happened. I realize more than ever how much I need her in my life. I think I had taken the relationship for granted perhaps. 

Stella, I'd rather be haunted by wondering if she's cheating than be haunted by the abandonment and thoughts of suicide.

I also thought at one point, "Why should I be the one to go? Why shouldn't I take OM?". Silly, I know.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

She is not a NEED, she is a want. 
Trust me, I know where your head is, I'm there too. I panic every day at the thought of my H never waking up and realizing his mistakes. I torture myself with grief and sadness over my part of the marriage breaking down. I take blame for him being with posow. 
But its been 5 months for me now and it does get easier!!! And I have my D to live and move forward for. Would I give anything to bring home home? Almost. I wouldn't give my life. 

You don't know what the future holds especially in regard to your W. But don't you think you should concentrate on the mistakes that you made, make yourself a better person and a terrific dad? Maybe someday she will realize what she lost. It has happened.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChknNoodleSoup (Oct 20, 2012)

I've tried and wanted to end my life before. My situation sucks and long story short don't see a way out a lot of times. But then I think of my little guy. Do I want him to kill himself one day when all is dark and bleak? No. I want to be there for him to support and love him. And I never want him to end his own life because he is so amazing. So I can't end mine for him. I know how you feel. You'll be ok. You're in a horrible spot and that hurts, but hang on for the kids. Hang in there for yourself. One day this will all be a distant memory.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Yeah, train might sound like a good idea. Til it doesn't work. 

I had a friend that tried pills. Then stepping in front of 16-wheeler doing 65. That didn't kill him either. Ripped half his head off, but nope, just strapped his family with life-long medical bills. 

Then he tried the train. Ooops. More bills. 

You are being completely selfish. More selfish than your stbxw.

Right now she has more courage than you. Gonna let her show you up?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Sounds like you're making that story up, Z. Plus, I live in a country where trains are no joke. They are big and fast. 

How does she have more courage? She's not being tested. 

I'll full admit it's a desperate act.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Its beyond silly.

Glad you are going for help. I know how painful it is to see her and not be able to hold her. I see Mrs.C every single day. I know the rest of our situation is different but that side and the kids... i go through every day too.

You arent in a unique situation. Your not the first and wont be the last.

You have become codependent on her. That is why i say you wont be truely happy even if she comes back. You need to embrace this as a chance to rediscover yourself. 

More importantly you need to see it through for your kids. There is no excuse to not do that. None at all.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Sounds like you're making that story up, Z. Plus, I live in a country where trains are no joke. They are big and fast.
> 
> How does she have more courage? She's not being tested.
> 
> I'll full admit it's a desperate act.


I don't care if you believe me. Sounds like you're fishing for sympathy. 

Life is a test. Giving up is an automatic F. 

Sorry if you don't want to hear it but giving up is the coward's way out. Doesn't get any more cowardly than that. 

Especially if you have children. 

Man up.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

If you do off yourself, at least you'll stop whining.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Look, I'd be saying all the things you are saying. I get it.

I'm not fishing for sympathy. I was more interested in people's take on one-itis and how it has affected them, because I am seriously affected.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Dang Old Timer don't apply for any jobs at the suicide prevention hotline phone bank.

Staystrong you need to get a grip on your life. Ive been following your threads for awhile now. You seem to like pushing peoples buttons. No spouse is worth it. No way you could have been truly happy as codependant as you are. You want to be happy? Fix yourself. Then another woman will come into your life. BTW if she is married stay away from her or you'll be right back on TAM.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Ok so one-itis it is then.

One-itis is a bullsh!t excuse to not move on.

I say that as someone fully down that path himself. Saying you will wait for ever for her is just covering the fear of being truely alive without her. It is an excuse to live in the past as a martyr instead of the present as a man.

Mrs.C is my soulmate. Not the only SO i have had but the only one i ever said "i love you" to because i dont use those three words lightly. I cant imagine being with anyonr else and I currently live in hope of R. 

I have no intention of moving on till hope of R is dead as dead can be. I have already decided though if that day comes i will go on without her for my boys if not for me. I also believe Mrs.C isnt the only amazing woman out there and i will only be alone for ever if i CHOOSE to be.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> Dang Old Timer don't apply for any jobs at the suicide prevention hotline phone bank.
> 
> Staystrong you need to get a grip on your life. Ive been following your threads for awhile now. You seem to like pushing peoples buttons. No spouse is worth it. No way you could have been truly happy as codependant as you are. You want to be happy? Fix yourself. Then another woman will come into your life. BTW if she is married stay away from her or you'll be right back on TAM.


I wasn't aware I was pushing anyone's buttons. 

It was quite a shock for me losing a wife, an intact family, a business and my only real connection to another culture. And having OM move into our old place. It basically destroyed me psychologically. I feel others have made much more progress than I have.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

old timer said:


> If you do off yourself, at least you'll stop whining.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lmao...can't believe you said that!!!
In seriousness, I have another friend (I need different friends obviously) who tried to kill himself, shotgun in the mouth. And it didn't work. He too walks around with half his head missing. And it was over a girlfriend at the time (high school). But now he is happily married with kids of his own. 

It can always be worse than what we think it is right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Ok so one-itis it is then.
> 
> One-itis is a bullsh!t excuse to not move on.
> 
> ...


Okay, I need to read your backstory.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



staystrong said:


> Okay, I need to read your backstory.


We have a winner!

Unknowingly KC has just given him what he was looking for.

Someone else who isn't "giving up hope".


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

That is because they have made more progress. Do you love yourself? Because if you do, you would mourn the loss of the marriage and then say hey it's her loss. I don't want a cheater anyway. Your ex is a piece of SHI*! Your ex is a piece of SHI*.
Take her off the pedestal, fix your codependency issues and go get someone who is not a piece of shi*.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> We have a winner!
> 
> Unknowingly KC has just given him what he was looking for.
> 
> Someone else who isn't "giving up hope".




I was thinking the exact same thing. :smthumbup:


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> We have a winner!
> 
> Unknowingly KC has just given him what he was looking for.
> 
> Someone else who isn't "giving up hope".


LOL Allright, settle down fellahs. 

I was saying I need to read his backstory because he's calling her Mrs. C but it doesn't sound like she's still in the picture. I was confused about what his status is with his wife.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

What is 'one'itis' again? Lost on what that term means...as for the train...you better be damn sure your infront of that sucker or under it cos if you fk that one up your gonna be all messed up and severed and shxt...head on a pillow type life and you won't even be capable to finish the job and your gonna really wish you were dead when someone else has to come into the room and change the catheter...turn you over and wipe your azz...ew! Talk about a train wreck! HAHA! 

Yea...I'm not one for a suicide hotline either. I can only say so much and do so much as the rest of the world really can. In truth...why beat around the bush...? No one is going to be able to stop you right? Right. What more is to be said that hasn't already been said on 5 or 6 pages of thread? Really? 

I worked at a hospital for 15 years...I can tell you what not to do...don't go for the pistol or shotgun...you live through that you have one messed up face...or half a face...seen it myself.

So yea...you talked about seeing a doc about meds...that's the way to go...you owe it to your kids...don't be such a dxick to your kids and bail...that's just balless. 

I'm haunted by abandonment too yanno. I was abandoned by both biological parents...and my stbxh...and i've had the same thoughts...I don't have small kids...mine are 21 and 27.(busy living their lives) I have no brothers or sisters...no parents... I am in this alone. I have pets..  ...and I great job I hate. I live alone...etc...so uh...I got into couseling...books...TAM...meds...group...and I took a measure to take back control...

I still hurt man...I cried today even...I miss him...I love him...I hate his guts...and I want him to hurt and feel pain...but I cannot control what he does or how he feels...but I can't let him get the best of me...

Don't let your wife own you like this man...I'm so proud of you right now to hear you agreed with your friend your going back to the docs...you see...there is a glimmer...grab it. Awesome. You need to keep going down that path with a vengence. It's hard...i know...'we' know...you make small changes every day until you can make big ones. No one says were going to wake up one day and were cured...it's a process...it's all process...and not an easy one. 

Meds is a great start....couseling...kids...friendships with women...TAM...etc etc...

and don't do any contact with your ex unless it is specifically about your kids...period. Avoid seeing her...etc...you don't need to put yourself in her path. Email her about kids...etc...just stay away from her and the OM. 

Bounce back...make a come back you can own...re invent yourself. 

I have too. I'm 47. ....in major debt now...living where I don't want too...yet with a house I love...no support system...my friends are a state away....i'm lonely as he!!. ....and i have to get up every day and also not reach for my pistol (remember messy  ...so your not the only one...not that you said you were...what i'm saying is...i can relate...'we' can relate to the feelings your having...the pain and mental anguish, the whys, the wtf,...and YOU need to realize...is...

...it 'does pass'.... it does get better. You need to wait for it...and while you are waiting for it to pass...DO stuff to help yourself...as suggested in these pages to you...

...jumping infront of a train isn't one of them...


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



staystrong said:


> LOL Allright, settle down fellahs.
> 
> I was saying I need to read his backstory because he's calling her Mrs. C but it doesn't sound like she's still in the picture. I was confused about what his status is with his wife.


Calm down?

Don't be projecting your scattered brain on me.

I'm very calm.

It's obvious what you're seeking.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Yes, I think I became co-dependent around the time the affair starting happening. As she drifted away, I must have started to cling. I needed the relationship more than she did at that time.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> Calm down?
> 
> Don't be projecting your scattered brain on me.
> 
> ...



You thought his story was a magnet for me because of he mentioned hope for R. It wasn't that. It's because I don't understand what his status is with his wife, hence "I need to read your backstory" (to understand).


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Yes, I think I became co-dependent around the time the affair starting happening. As she drifted away, I must have started to cling. I needed the relationship more than she did at that time.


You have always been codependant, you just don't realize it until the person you are dependant on leaves. Same thing happened to me, didn't even know what the he!! It was until H left. I never thought he would leave or be with another woman. But he is, end of story. You're not going to heal overnight but you will, I will too, it'll just take time. Give time...the time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Meh. Staystrong can take what he wants from my words and backstory. Our situations are not the same and i at least have indications of some thing to hope for. I included that for a reason though. 

In summary i call her Mrs.C as i still think of her as that. We are separted but she isnt banging another man nor has she done so. I have evidence of NO infidelity as i did look for it. I am simply saying i am in the midst of this one-itis thing. I get the angle staystrong is coming from there but..

I dont accept it as an excuse to not go on with life and i dont accept it as an excuse to not be happy. My focus right now is on being happy wothout her and i am mostly doi g well with it despite missing my wife constantly.

Also sorry staystrong but i doubt her affair caused your codependancy. It will have been there already. It may well have even contributed to her being willing to look elsewhere though she could just be a skank if this isnt the first time she has left soemonw for OM.

Take a long hard look at yourself as an individual. Right now it seems you are looking for excuses to not do that.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Listen to KC, he knows what he's talking about. I'm scared sh!tless to be alone. But you know what, I have been for 5 months now and right now I'm staring at my beautiful D in her little princess dress making herself a crown and my two puppies curled up on the chair....sure my H isn't here...but I'm OK. You just need moments like these and then remember the sh!t out of them!!! Stop with the self pity party already.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

familyfirst09 said:


> You have always been codependant, you just don't realize it until the person you are dependant on leaves. Same thing happened to me, didn't even know what the he!! It was until H left. I never thought he would leave or be with another woman. But he is, end of story. You're not going to heal overnight but you will, I will too, it'll just take time. Give time...the time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is interesting because to me I feel that my wife and I switched places. In my country she was more dependent on me and hers I was more dependent on her. Practically and emotionally.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Take a long hard look at yourself as an individual. Right now it seems you are looking for excuses to not do that.


Good advice. I think I need professional help in this area.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Well that does happen. What country are you from and what country are you in now?
My H and I have switched places as well. 2 years ago, I was the one who didn't think I wanted to be with him. Now he no longer wants to be with me. I didn't have another man in my life but he does have POSOW now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

familyfirst09 said:


> Listen to KC, he knows what he's talking about. I'm scared sh!tless to be alone. But you know what, I have been for 5 months now and right now I'm staring at my beautiful D in her little princess dress making herself a crown and my two puppies curled up on the chair....sure my H isn't here...but I'm OK. You just need moments like these and then remember the sh!t out of them!!! Stop with the self pity party already.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Yes, it's great when the kids are around. 

It's tough when they are not. (Alternate weekly custody.)

Before this relationship, I never used to mind being alone.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

So why do you mind it now then?
I know that's a tough question to answer, I never used to mind it either, when I was in my relationship. I've never been alone, or without a man in my life. Big adjustment for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I'm from the US. She's from Western Europe. 

Why do I now mind being alone? That's easy.. because I used to have a healthy marriage and an intact family. I was surrounded by love and able to give intimate love to others. Being alone is a reminder that I have lost something very precious to me, and something which is unique though not completely irreplaceable.

And of course, there's the sex. I'm not having any of that right now.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

For fvck sakes.

You did not have a healthy marriage.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

staystrong said:


> though not completely irreplaceable.


You need to remember this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

upnover I was just going to write the same darn thing! Staystrong...you need to buck up and move on. This woman is not even worth it. Yes, I am currently separated from the own "LOVE OF MY LIFE"....but there is no way in hell that I would EVER allow someone else control my happiness. Is my life better with him...yes..sometimes....but it will be just as good without him because I will CHOOSE THAT. And then....I will move on and find someone who appreciates me 100%.

I have read this whole thread and cannot absorb on any level why you would give someone the ability to make you a weak man...especially one who was clearly never able to love you in the first place.....and that fact that you are placing this woman over your children is terrifying.....


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> For fvck sakes.
> 
> You did not have a healthy marriage.



:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> For fvck sakes.
> 
> You did not have a healthy marriage.


Why, because it started with cheating and ended with cheating? That doesn't disqualify the interim.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

workingatit said:


> upnover I was just going to write the same darn thing! Staystrong...you need to buck up and move on. This woman is not even worth it. Yes, I am currently separated from the own "LOVE OF MY LIFE"....but there is no way in hell that I would EVER allow someone else control my happiness. Is my life better with him...yes..sometimes....but it will be just as good without him because I will CHOOSE THAT. And then....I will move on and find someone who appreciates me 100%.
> 
> I have read this whole thread and cannot absorb on any level why you would give someone the ability to make you a weak man...especially one who was clearly never able to love you in the first place.....and that fact that you are placing this woman over your children is terrifying.....


Based on the few facts available, I understand why you'd make the assumption that my wife did not love me. Typically, having kids with someone is the highest endorsement a woman can make. No one here knows the details of our marriage. My wife and I both enjoyed the bulk of our marriage.. neither of us would argue that we weren't deeply in love. You can be flawed and still love. Things changed when we moved. It became a complication of stressful factors, of which money was an important one.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

Sheis a CHEATER...she cheated with you and on you --- this person is not capable of love. Some people make mistakes and learn from them....but she continues doing it, which means she has issues. You can convince yourself all you want that this person loved you if that makes you feel better - but you are doing you AND YOUR CHILDREN a disservice by believeing that. 

Clearly you are not hearing what the people here have been trying to tell you so I am curious why you even continue to post if you are not accepting the truth and the help being offered from VERY experienced people who have been there.....


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

And having children with a man is not an endorsement of love...it is often called liking sex...or "hooking a man"...ask all the babies out there with no daddies.....that is the biggest crock I have EVER heard. My daughter was a surprise...we never wanted a children.....it was not an "endorsement of love".....uughhh


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



staystrong said:


> Based on the few facts available, I understand why you'd make the assumption that my wife did not love me. Typically, having kids with someone is the highest endorsement a woman can make. No one here knows the details of our marriage. My wife and I both enjoyed the bulk of our marriage.. neither of us would argue that we weren't deeply in love. You can be flawed and still love. Things changed when we moved. It became a complication of stressful factors, of which money was an important one.


You're so delusional.

Look how you speak for her constantly.

All the time.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

familyfirst09 said:


> So why do you mind it now then?
> I know that's a tough question to answer, I never used to mind it either, when I was in my relationship. I've never been alone, or without a man in my life. Big adjustment for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've never been alone either. Ever. This is the first dang time...adjustment is an understatement...lol


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I'm from the US. She's from Western Europe.
> 
> Why do I now mind being alone? That's easy.. because I used to have a healthy marriage and an intact family.* I was surrounded by love and able to give intimate love to others*. Being alone is a reminder that I have lost something very precious to me, and something which is unique though not completely irreplaceable.
> 
> *And of course, there's the sex*. I'm not having any of that right now.





staystrong said:


> Why, because it started with cheating and ended with cheating? *That doesn't disqualify the interim.*





staystrong said:


> Based on the few facts available, I understand why *you'd make the assumption that my wife did not love me.* Typically, having kids with someone is the highest endorsement a woman can make. *No one here knows the details of our marriage.* *My wife and I both enjoyed the bulk of our marriage.. neither of us would argue that we weren't deeply in love. You can be flawed and still love.* Things changed when we moved. It became *a complication of stressful factors, of which money was an important one.*


I could have written half of this myself. The love you thought was love is the best love you know to date. It may not be and more than likely is not. You can't know that in your state of mind/emotion. You can only trust these good people who are trying to help you and your children. You may not think they are, but believe me, they are.

Everyone has their own reasons for giving up. They are similar, but not the same. Everyone has their reasons for staying here and pulling courage out of their arses to survive. Some do understand to a point. No one understands exactly. They only know there is more to life than what you have seen because they have lived that "more".

It isn't easy. It isn't a quick fix. It isn't exactly what you want or expect. Right now, it's nothing like what you want or expect. You don't believe it, but they are right about the codependency. You can not see it in your state.

Do you want to prove them wrong? Do you want to make them eat their words? You can't do it if you are not here. You must be here to prove it.

God knows, I've been so close, so many times. I can't tell you in words, but you know. I am still, yes still looking to find a way to keep moving forward. I want something. I don't know what. I think I know what it is. I don't think I will get it. I'm not going to quit just yet. I'm going to try today. One more time, I will put that exhausting effort into staying here. Even if it's just to piss of the people that love me.

If that's the only reason I have, it's good enough today. Tomorrow I will try something else, if that doesn't work again. I don't care if your not religious. Maybe this will piss you off enough to stir the life inside of you. God Bless You and I'm going to further piss you off by saying, I'm going to say a prayer for you. 

I hope it pisses you off enough to come back on here and ***** to these fine people trying to help you and to me. Some day I will need you to return the favor.


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## All of a sudden (Jan 24, 2013)

Glad to see your still around stay strong! :smthumbup:


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

workingatit said:


> Sheis a CHEATER...she cheated with you and on you --- this person is not capable of love. Some people make mistakes and learn from them....but she continues doing it, which means she has issues. You can convince yourself all you want that this person loved you if that makes you feel better - but you are doing you AND YOUR CHILDREN a disservice by believeing that.
> 
> Clearly you are not hearing what the people here have been trying to tell you so I am curious why you even continue to post if you are not accepting the truth and the help being offered from VERY experienced people who have been there.....


Clearly she has issues but that does not mean she's incapable of love. She chooses exit affairs at times she feels uneasy in the marriage. Yes, she sucks for that. But you are saying you know who is capable of love and who isn't? Love is highly subjective. With your experience you may be able to say you know things about affairs, chances of R, relationships, etc. but you have no insight into whether two specific people loved each other. That's just absurd.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

workingatit said:


> And having children with a man is not an endorsement of love...it is often called liking sex...or "hooking a man"...ask all the babies out there with no daddies.....that is the biggest crock I have EVER heard. My daughter was a surprise...we never wanted a children.....it was not an "endorsement of love".....uughhh


It sounds like you are projecting your situation onto mine.

I admit our first not intended and was a result of lazy pill-taking, but our second was planned.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> You're so delusional.
> 
> Look how you speak for her constantly.
> 
> All the time.


I'll defend what I know. And I know my marital history. I'll defend the wife she was.

Maybe your own definition of love doesn't allow for her to be capable of love, but that does not make your definition reality. Explain yourself, because it just seems like an arrogant statement.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I could have written half of this myself. *The love you thought was love is the best love you know to date It may not be and more than likely is not. You can't know that in your state of mind/emotion. You can only trust these good people who are trying to help you and your children. You may not think they are, but believe me, they are.*
> 
> Everyone has their own reasons for giving up. They are similar, but not the same. Everyone has their reasons for staying here and pulling courage out of their arses to survive. Some do understand to a point. No one understands exactly. They only know there is more to life than what you have seen because they have lived that "more".
> 
> ...



I just think people need to explain more if they make strong statements like this. 

Hypothetical: If a person is married and divorced four times, does that make him incapable of love? Only if there's cheating involved does it mean that?

And I like your style 2ntnuf. Sure you can pray for me, man, if that's your thing. No worries about that. Thank you.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I could have written half of this myself. *The love you thought was love is the best love you know to date. It may not be and more than likely is not. You can't know that in your state of mind/emotion. You can only trust these good people who are trying to help you and your children. You may not think they are, but believe me, they are.*
> 
> Okay. Let's see here. I believed that my XW was the only one for me. I believed there was no other person that could be that well suited to me. I drove myself to a nearly complete destruction because of it. I wanted to die more times than you can imagine. I tried to justify my suicidal thought. I wanted to end it all. I have come to realize there really are more fish in the sea. Her love was not the best for me. My love was the best I could give at the time, but not good enough for her. The way I figure it is this; she gave up the best I could give before trying. If that is all she has to give, I don't want her. She's not good enough for me. She cheated on my and it devastated me. I don't need that in my life any more.
> 
> ...





staystrong said:


> I just think people need to explain more if they make strong statements like this.
> 
> Hypothetical: If a person is married and divorced four times, does that make him incapable of love?
> 
> ...


The trouble is, I don't know your story and it looks like you haven't told anyone what your story is completely. Although I believe all love is a sort of codependency, if you want to break the bonds of depression, it may be worthwhile to read something on beating codependency. I don't think you want to give up. You are looking for a way to get her back. I fully understand that. I did too. Is it healthy to do that? I don't know. I don't think so.

Keep yourself together the best you can for your children. They will need you. You can be there for them if you want in some way shape or form. Don't abandon them by destroying yourself.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Okay. Let's see here. I believed that my XW was the only one for me. I believed there was no other person that could be that well suited to me. I drove myself to a nearly complete destruction because of it. I wanted to die more times than you can imagine. I tried to justify my suicidal thought. I wanted to end it all. I have come to realize there really are more fish in the sea. Her love was not the best for me. My love was the best I could give at the time, but not good enough for her. The way I figure it is this; she gave up the best I could give before trying. If that is all she has to give, I don't want her. She's not good enough for me. She cheated on my and it devastated me. I don't need that in my life any more.


Mm hmm.. I see the difference here. I think I have regrets because I was not my "best self" leading up to the period when she cheated. I can definitely see that. I was a good man and good father and all that, but I think I was suffering a bit from the isolation of working from home in a new community. She was the breadwinner at the time and that stressed her out. Add a few more things to that list..

We both needed to improve in areas. Maybe I feel like I needed to improve more, in a MMSL kind of way. Hence the added anxiety and regret, you understand. Wanting to "fix" that past - we all do it. (Big regret: not exposing the affair in recommended TAM fashion for one). By the way, I started my thread a few months after D-Day so it's more of summary than a running narrative. I lurked for a while and tried to glean advice from others' stories. Note to other BHs: Don't wait, jump in. 

Thanks for the rest of your post.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Mm hmm.. I see the difference here.* I think I have regrets because I was not my "best self" leading up to the period when she cheated.* I can definitely see that. I was a good man and good father and all that, but I think I was suffering a bit from the isolation of working from home in a new community.* She was the breadwinner*
> 
> Same here.
> 
> ...


I knew nothing about TAM until it was too late. I learned about it from the very people who helped a man take my wife from me. They did everything they could to keep me from her. All of them and my family and doctors. I had no chance. Lies were spread. Stories told. I knew nothing of her pain. I could not tell her of mine. Do you know what it is like to love someone with all your heart, want to help her and speak with her to ease her pain, but have everyone keep you away and tell her you are staying away because you don't love her and don't care? 

I had a nervous breakdown when she left. There was more and no one did anything about it. I had something happen to my brain which has hindered my ability to remember things, think logically, find apporpriate words and use appropriate grammar and punctuation. All of this happened during a phone conversation with my wife. I have not and will not fully recover. I needed more care. No one knew the change in me. My wife could have seen it and alerted the doctors so tests might have been conducted. All the years she knew me and she learned not to trust me over a short period of time with a woman who was on drugs and was horribly abused and projecting. I believe it was her who had great influence in my wife's decisions, along with my BIL. There is so much and it has been so long. I hope I am getting this all correctly. I just know I continue to hurt each day. I continue to think about the one true love I had in life. The person who made me a better person and I her for a while.

A man who probably was on here and learned from NMMNG and MMSL. He was a womanizer and dating a married woman who would not leave her husband while going after my wife(sleeping with,dating). She(the other married woman) dated him for years. He used the tools he learned to take other men's wives. I had no help from my doctors only hindrance. I had hindrance from everyone in my family. My sister was the only one of my three siblings that helped keep me alive. My children are grown. The continuing narrative is what you are headed for. If you don't like it. You have to work to change yourself. It's too late for me. I don't have enough time to recover. You do. You can make a better life for yourself. Your children are young. You are intelligent.

What will you do?


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Allow me to share something with you SS
15 years old
the rope...the tree....the music prepared
rope broke

loaded up on meds.....still depressed
brain surgery
Dr was aggressive
came out in his words "lucky to walk with cane"
"mental capacity of 10/12 y/o"
but i did get his tumor out
I was 16.....prayed to die....mom heard me

Two years later
won 5k race
started college

Now
completing doctorate
author
sports writer

but what if i gave up? what if my mother had to bury me? she told me years later she would have been right behind me. you don't realize how many lives you touch. it's a wonderful life examples this every Christmas Eve.

stand up, clean yourself off......i walked through hell and came out a winner. so can you. as my dad told me.....you are not special....you just wanted it more than anyone else.

SS-i didn't hear no bell.....get off your a$$ and show the world what you are made of


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Yes, I think I became co-dependent around the time the affair starting happening. As she drifted away, I must have started to cling. I needed the relationship more than she did at that time.


"at THAT time"?
Doesn't sound like much has changed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Today is better. 

Wrote a letter to STBXW in her voice addressing me. Felt very good to write. (Didn't send.)


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## SecretTears (Jul 18, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Today is better.
> 
> Wrote a letter to STBXW in her voice addressing me. Felt very good to write. (Didn't send.)


So glad you are feeling better today! Remember take it one day, one hour, one minute at a time, that's all you need to do.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Today is better.
> 
> Wrote a letter to STBXW in her voice addressing me. Felt very good to write. (Didn't send.)



Now your getting it.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Embracing these hard truths is the only hope for a healthy future. Your past and especially your marriage sound anything but healthy. You are blinded to that though. It may take time to chip away at the lies and delusions but first you need to accept your head needs to be cleared. When it gets clesrer re-examone the past. Take it from someone who has fone this.. You will see things very differently once you allow yourself to.

Keep going forward. Dont look back till you are in a better place in the present. Then be prepared to surprise yourself with what you see.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> Dang Old Timer don't apply for any jobs at the suicide prevention hotline phone bank.


Yea, my success rate probably wouldn't be very impressive. 

Ex.
Me: "Suicide Hot Line"...
Caller: "I wanna kill myself". 
Me: "How can I help?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

old timer said:


> Yea, my success rate probably wouldn't be very impressive.
> 
> Ex.
> Me: "Suicide Hot Line"...
> ...


I know I shouldn't be laughing...but ROTFLMFAO!!!!:rofl:


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I knew nothing about TAM until it was too late. I learned about it from the very people who helped a man take my wife from me. They did everything they could to keep me from her. All of them and my family and doctors. I had no chance. Lies were spread. Stories told. I knew nothing of her pain. I could not tell her of mine. Do you know what it is like to love someone with all your heart, want to help her and speak with her to ease her pain, but have everyone keep you away and tell her you are staying away because you don't love her and don't care?
> 
> I had a nervous breakdown when she left. There was more and no one did anything about it. I had something happen to my brain which has hindered my ability to remember things, think logically, find apporpriate words and use appropriate grammar and punctuation. All of this happened during a phone conversation with my wife. I have not and will not fully recover. I needed more care. No one knew the change in me. My wife could have seen it and alerted the doctors so tests might have been conducted. All the years she knew me and she learned not to trust me over a short period of time with a woman who was on drugs and was horribly abused and projecting. I believe it was her who had great influence in my wife's decisions, along with my BIL. There is so much and it has been so long. I hope I am getting this all correctly. I just know I continue to hurt each day. I continue to think about the one true love I had in life. The person who made me a better person and I her for a while.
> 
> ...



I have come to hate abbreviations on here...lol what is NMMNG and MMSL? 
And you said change is too late for you...you don't have enough time to recover...what do you mean by this? I don't like this statement...


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

NMMNG = No More Mr Nice Guy
MMSL = Married Man Sex Life

e-books and primers for guys who ain't doing thing right in their marriage.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

> Your wife is not capable of love.


Up n Over, SomedayDig, others..

I know I was defensive, but you've made a statement no one else has made. Something that cuts to the center. Please elaborate..


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

She may be capable of love. Is she really capable of long term one person for the rest of your life love?

Ya know the whole marriage deal?

Magic 8 ball says "all signs point to no."


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## realistorcynic (Feb 6, 2013)

I didn't read the entire thread because it's gotten to 9 pages, but I do feel like I need to say that if you are still thinking about suicide PLEASE THINK ABOUT YOUR CHILDREN! What you said about they're young and it probably won't be traumatic for them is complete BS. Kids need BOTH parents in their life. I went my whole life without a mother, and just because she gave me up when I was 4 didn't make it any less traumatic. I know suicide and giving your children up are two very different things, but they will feel like you were weak and that they didn't mean enough to you for you to even want to live. Oh and btw you say you love your ex-wife, well what do you think it will do to her if she knows she was the reason you killed yourself?

Time really does heal all wounds. You would be hard pressed to find anyone who hasn't felt exactly like you do right now. I know I've felt the same way, but as soon as I started thinking the way that you are I had a different reaction. I felt embarrassed and ashamed that I would want to kill myself over someone just because they rejected me. 

The way I handled it? I faked happy until one day I wasn't faking anymore. Sometimes just smiling really does make you feel better. I made sure that I was always doing something. If I wasn't at work, I was out with friends. Even if it was something that sounded boring, if someone had something to do I was in. I made alot of new friends. I got a really fun roommate too. Just don't let yourself sit around and sulk all day. You're not going to make yourself happier that way, and you are certainly not going to attract another woman that way.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Great post, oncehisangel.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Up n Over, SomedayDig, others..
> 
> I know I was defensive, but you've made a statement no one else has made. Something that cuts to the center. Please elaborate..


To be honest with you Strong I did post 2 replies last night in regards to your questions on this matter.

Then I deleted them.

What you seek I cannot help you with, you are still seeking the 'one answer' to make it all click in your head that she will come back one day.

There are no short cuts in this.

From my viewpoint you define 'Love' as the end all be all to a relationship.

'Love' is not what holds a marriage together.

Love is the icing on the marital cake, the emotion built between two people over time and with a solid foundation.

Does this mean that every time there are troubled waters you 'fall out of love'?

No.

But with how you express yourself and from what I feel you seek, you constantly think eating icing (Love) will somehow make things better between you two.

What happens when all you do is eat icing?

You sh!t yourself.

Which you have been doing constantly.

You over exaggerate, assume and hope that YOU know how SHE 'MUST' feel.

When no signs point in your favor.

You get angry.

When the anger subsides.

You get runny nosed.

When the tears stop flowing.

You announce to the world your only option now is the blade in your hand.

There is a constant refusal to deal with reality and when that is placed in your face like an unkempt armpit you protest the stench.

Asking for explanations as to why it stinks as much as it does.

You have every right to question the words spoken to you.

But one day I really do wish that you quit the pouting and get down from the delusional platform you base your now grumbling marriage on.

A person can only be picked up so many times until they are left to do it themselves.

Your ex wife left her previous relationship for you.

She has now done the same thing TO you.

I have never known another member on TAM to be so full of themselves (How could SHE do this to ME, we had a PERFECT marriage!) yet so clueless to what's put forth in front of them.

This is very clear when you now 'defend' your marriage with "You don't know my marriage, I'm the only one who does!".

No, we don't know your marriage.

We know the patterns.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

realistorcynic said:


> I didn't read the entire thread because it's gotten to 9 pages, but I do feel like I need to say that if you are still thinking about suicide PLEASE THINK ABOUT YOUR CHILDREN! What you said about they're young and it probably won't be traumatic for them is complete BS. Kids need BOTH parents in their life. I went my whole life without a mother, and just because she gave me up when I was 4 didn't make it any less traumatic. I know suicide and giving your children up are two very different things, but they will feel like you were weak and that they didn't mean enough to you for you to even want to live. Oh and btw you say you love your ex-wife, well what do you think it will do to her if she knows she was the reason you killed yourself?
> 
> Time really does heal all wounds. You would be hard pressed to find anyone who hasn't felt exactly like you do right now. I know I've felt the same way, but as soon as I started thinking the way that you are I had a different reaction. I felt embarrassed and ashamed that I would want to kill myself over someone just because they rejected me.
> 
> The way I handled it? I faked happy until one day I wasn't faking anymore. Sometimes just smiling really does make you feel better. I made sure that I was always doing something. If I wasn't at work, I was out with friends. Even if it was something that sounded boring, if someone had something to do I was in. I made alot of new friends. I got a really fun roommate too. Just don't let yourself sit around and sulk all day. You're not going to make yourself happier that way, and you are certainly not going to attract another woman that way.


Great post. Thank you.


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## realistorcynic (Feb 6, 2013)

Maybe it would be healthier for you to forget about her for awhile and just work on making yourself happy. Every person needs to able to be happy regardless of whether they are in a relationship or not because the sad truth is that marriages just don't work out as often as they used to. I know you are probably happier in a relationship, but when people are single is when they really discover who they are as a person. Take this period of time of independence in your life and try to make it a positive experience. Btw the ending to the above story that I told was that he ended up wanting me back after his OW left him for his best friend (now that's what I call a quality woman), but by that point I was too strong of a person and respected myself too much to go back to someone who treated me the way he did. 

On a side note, maybe everybody should share their own stories about how they got over a time like this in their lives instead of trying to convince the poster something that he doesn't want to hear about his ex. This is about him and not about her after all.


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## realistorcynic (Feb 6, 2013)

You're welcome. I really do think you need to base your healing on yourself. You do seem codependent, and you may not see it but this is the perfect opportunity for you to grow as a person. Someday you may even see this as the best thing that ever happened to you. Honestly I do. I used the time that I was single to focus on making myself the person I had always wanted to be. It is most likely the reason that he tried to come crawling back to me every time his other relationships didn't work out. And it felt incredibly gratifying to be able to say that I didn't need him in my life as anything more than a friend. Happiness is the best revenge.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

If it makes you feel any better.

3 weeks into my separation I came close to using a blade.

Then I thought of my kids and in 3 hours was in IC.

Which triggered me to start making moves to ensure I had my kids 50/50.

I was awarded that in court 3 weeks ago after 10 months.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Listen to Up. He tells it straight, you might not always want to hear what he says or even agree with it but it's worth listening to.

No one is saying it should be easy for you. It's fecking hard for all of us but the only one that can do your fighting is you dude. You need to accept that you aren't a special case, we do know how you feel even if not the exact situation. YOU have to start kicking this situations ass though, we can't do it for you. I am far from being as far along the path as some of the guys advising you here but I have accepted the path is there and set foot on it with every intention of seeing where it leads me. 

You know what, that first step is scary as hell but once you're on it, it's not so bad as you imagined. It's not sweetness and roses of course but it is isn't the trek into Mordor either.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> To be honest with you Strong I did post 2 replies last night in regards to your questions on this matter.
> 
> Then I deleted them.
> 
> ...


I read the two posts you had written before you deleted them....I did have a 'wholy shxt' moment...mixed with the usual appreciativeness of your blatant honesty...

just sayin'...


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> I read the two posts you had written before you deleted them....I did have a 'wholy shxt' moment...mixed with the usual appreciativeness of your blatant honesty...
> 
> just sayin'...


I stand by what I written before deleting it.

Although it had been too emotionally charged by my own problems.

Not fair to him.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Up n Over,

Specifically you said that my wife is incapable of love. I was hoping you'd follow up on that.

Being told my wife and I did not really love each other and I just can't "see" that yet is a pretty big pill to swallow.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

My two cents..........one can not love if one does not know what love is. 

Glad to see you are peeking out of the rabbit hole! There is a dawn coming SS.....


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## jane1213 (Aug 10, 2012)

Please dont force him to "get it" that his wife doesn't love him or to tell him he should move on . Denial is as healthy as moving on . His mind can't take it so the mind is trying to help by believing she will come back and there is hope.he is suicidal and this is the only way to get out if this hole is hope.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

> Denial is as healthy as moving on


Denial is not healthy and I am not sure how you can think that - it will keep him in the bad situation he is in and keep him in a world of hope that will ultimately hurt him more.

Some people need to hear things from others who have been there OVER AND OVER before they understand everything...that is what everyone here is trying to do.....there are some things in my own thread that have been said MULTIPLE times before I GOT IT....

Believing you were loved is fine, but allowing that to keep you from moving and be being the BEST DAD you can be is NOT ACCEPTABLE.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I wouldnt go there regarding if she did love him, she possibly did as best she could.. that's all maybe's as we weren't there to see.

What is clear as day to see is that she does not love him now. Simple as. Forget why or how that came to be be. It's how it is.

I doubt she is actually capable of the long term commitment needed to be happy with one person but whether that means she is incapable of real love is open to as many interpretations as the question of what is love.

It's irrelevant anyways as she doesn't love you now SS. Her actions don't say I love you, they say quite clearly F You. 

I'll say it again, get past what you see or hope to see regarding her and get looking ta yourself. I suspect you won't like what you see but that's ok, it will just give you more things to focus on rather than her. You have to get a grip.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Regardless.

The focus is far too much on her.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I don't think Jane1234 was suggesting SS remain in denial indefinitely and never confront the true demons. All the previous posters are correct insofar as they believe acceptance at some level is the only way forward. While it is certainly therapeutic for SS to be reminded of this's, his heart and soul are going take whatever time it takes to start to heal.

SS, these good people are right nd you should realLy listen to them. But take the time to grieve. We all have different timetables. In the meantime, get up, put your pants on, take care of those daughters.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

K.C. said:


> It's irrelevant anyways as she doesn't love you now SS. Her actions don't say I love you, they say quite clearly F You.


There's no arguing that. 



K.C. said:


> I'll say it again, get past what you see or hope to see regarding her and get looking ta yourself. I suspect you won't like what you see but that's ok, it will just give you more things to focus on rather than her. You have to get a grip.


I'll be trying a med soon so I hope that will help.

Yes, I have a hard time letting go of this. I am starting to see more of how I was codependent. Besides that, starting to start a new life in a foreign country while depressed, and where you have no family or friends, has its own set of stressors. Finding a new apartment, searching for a new car, getting a new phone, problems with the bank transfers, dealing with single parent life, getting sick because immune system is down, etc. It's a lot at once and I often don't feel strong enough during the day to take care of my ****. My mind keeps going back to D-Day and how I could have handled it better. How I could've busted that affair and had a chance at R. How I could have "won", not lost. I feel like a goalkeeper who keeps playing the unblocked goal in his head over and over again.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

It's good that you are getting help. My meds have been a great help but I believe they would not have helped so much if I wasn't very consciously working on my frame of mind myself.

They may help enormously but you can't rely on them to fix everything, you have to put the work in yourself. Meds just help you to do that.

I talk from past experience, i tried meds under sufferance years ago but hadn't really mentally committed to dealing with my problems.. i didn't think the meds were helping and stopped taking them. This time when i buy into needing to fix my ****.. big surprise, they do help.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

It's better that you are looking at yourself too.. but the past is the past. You should look at it but only in the sense of how to improve your future. You have to find a way to forgive your failings whilst still owning them.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

K.C. said:


> It's better that you are looking at yourself too.. but the past is the past. You should look at it but only in the sense of how to improve your future. You have to find a way to forgive your failings whilst still owning them.


What is the way you found to deal with this?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I try not to think about Mrs.C as much as early on and I see her for the person she is. In my case that kinda sucks as she is pretty great (remember i mostly caused our problems not her) but she isn't quite the goddess I had up on the pedestal. I see her faults and the things she did that contributed to the way things fell apart. I own my failures but I have separated "that me" from the "real me". 

That loser was/is Mr Hyde to the real me's Dr Jekyll. 

I won't say forgive yet as I am a very much own my own back for those failings but they are in the past. I can't take any of those actions or mistakes back, all I can do is try to learn from them and put those lessons into practice.

Sounds like I have it all planned out and know where I ma going? Pfft hardly. I wobble and struggle with the reality of doing that every day. I think about her more than I should but I actively move my thoughts away from her when I catch myself doing. I vent and whinge in my thread rather than in reality. My outward facade is pretty chilled and happy now.. the turmoil is kept underneath. You know the whole fake it till you make it thing.

Then when it gets really bad and I can't manage to do it for me..

I concentrate on being the best person and Dad I can be for my kids. My boys mean everything to me and no one.. not Mrs.C, not my Mr Hyde.. no one is going to stop me being a great Dad. Everything else may change according to circumstances but being the best dad I can.. that sh!t right there is totally NON NEGOTIABLE.

Oh and every now and again I make sure to remind myself that actually I am pretty awesome whether I believe it at that moment or not.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

The fact that you're here on TAM and the way you speak makes it hard for me to believe you were some kind of loser.

I like what you said about non-negotiable. I cant' get too self-absorbed.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



staystrong said:


> Up n Over,
> 
> Specifically you said that my wife is incapable of love. I was hoping you'd follow up on that.
> 
> Being told my wife and I did not really love each other and I just can't "see" that yet is a pretty big pill to swallow.


I have no doubt at one time you guys loved each other.

I know my ex and I were in love once as well.

That doesn't mean I should use what was in the past to excuse the present and future.

You've been stomping your feet around here for months and the repeated theme I've been telling you, regardless of your feelings is this;

"Work on you."

But your focus isn't there yet.

It's a matter of when you get sick and tired of being sick and tired.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

staystrong said:


> The fact that you're here on TAM and the way you speak makes it hard for me to believe you were some kind of loser.
> 
> I like what you said about non-negotiable. I cant' get too self-absorbed.


I am not a loser, I am a survivor and a fighter. Always was before Mr Hyde got out of his cage and I am again now that he is back in it.

For a while there though, at least two years, my depression did have me acting the loser. I became a quitter and very passive. I lost all motivation and ambition. I really wasn't the same man she married.

Loser sums it up pretty well unfortunately and that is why I am on TAM. I let my dark cloud take over and I am maybe 90% responsible for where my marriage ended up. I am back now though (most of the time heh), back fighting and surviving. 

This won't beat me, I won't allow that to happen. There is too much at stake, my newly re-found self respectm (it's a bit tattered and torn but nothing that can't be fixed up) and my boys. Nope, falling back on my progress is simply not an option.

Do I want her back? I have been very honest about that. She did not cheat on me despite her unhappiness, she did try to reach me in the cloud for a long time. So yeah I would R in a heartbeat with only very small changes needed from her side. But I have tried and I hope managed to make that the secondary desire. I am working with the hope of R but the assumption it won't happen. I constantly remind myself no matter what I do, I cannot control her emotions and have to work on me. I have to do that on the basis that it is too little too late for her but not for me and the boys. 

She isn't the cake, me and the boys are, maybe the cake could get icing on it but it's a nice cake without it.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Okay, I got my prescription for the anti-depressant today. I hope this one doesn't have the same side effects as the last. 

I've been re-reading some of the things TAMers have written to me. I've also been exploring other areas of TAM outside CWI and GTDS.

I think the big psychological block I've been having is that I feel like the affair my wife had could have been prevented. So my self-growth has so far been to understand myself in that relationship and what went wrong (communication, leadership, material matters, etc.). That relationship meant a lot to me and I see the ways I mishandled it. Not major stuff (no abuse, addictions, neglect, etc.) but apparently enough of the minor stuff to create a environment in which she was susceptible to straying. I suppose now I must examine more the things I must change fundamentally in myself, things which are not framed by this relationship. I feel inspired to do this, but I also feel very sad. It hurts to let go of something you treasured and which you thought would help bring you fulfillment for a long time. The reasons for the distress are so very clear but none were because we were incompatible. We both just failed to cope the right way, and to be honest I failed to understand her concerns and lead where I really needed to lead. I just thought we'd stick it out together and things would be "okay" since they weren't really bad. That we had enough trust and respect that we would not betray one another. Naivete...

Certainly TAM has showed me the way boundaries can be redrawn, how people's eyes can wander and how interlopers can make their way into a marriage. I know enough now that I will honor a future marriage by acting with strength, love, respect.. and awareness.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Not a damn thing you can ever do to prevent someone from cheating on you.

You have no control over there choices in life.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Up is right. 

My X has been verbally abusive and selfish for a long time. I wouldn't admit it to myself but I often did not feel loved. I had opportunities and invitation to hook up with really attractive coworkers. 

I did not cheat. She couldn't "push me into an affair".


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Okay, I got my prescription for the anti-depressant today. I hope this one doesn't have the same side effects as the last.
> 
> I've been re-reading some of the things TAMers have written to me. I've also been exploring other areas of TAM outside CWI and GTDS.
> 
> ...


Strong,

There's 2 ways to deal with this.

One is to meet the emotional needs of your spouse and make it a daily commitment.

The other is to maintain your sex rank and focus on being as attractive as possible.

These are not mutually exclusive


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Strong,
> 
> There's 2 ways to deal with this.
> 
> ...


Good summary.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

You sound like your blaming yourself for HER decision.

Stop it. Yes you will have made mistakes but she made her own decisions. We have heard enough that I believe she would never have been happy in the long term and no matter how well you did, at some point she would have found what she considered justification for straying.

Accept those mistakes but you will get a 2x4 to the head if you blame yourself for her cheating. She did that, not you.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Hi KC,

Take me to the lumber yard. 

I really don't blame myself for her *decision*. She f'ed up and that's all on her. I think what I blame myself for are the very two things Conrad just pointed out. (Add to that financial needs that weren't being met at the time.)

The other thing I keep going back to, and we've talked about this, is not exposing after D-Day. Or letting her expose, as it were, and thinking in my fog that she was giving an accurate portrayal of events. I'm sure she framed it as we were having marital problems before the affair started, when in fact the opposite was true. Anyhow, it does nag at me how her family may view the event. I know they don't approve of her actions but I don't think they realize the treachery. For example, none of them knew they moved OM in to our apartment immediately after I went back to my home country for two months. If custody was an issue, I'd raise hell about this with the law, but currently we will have equal time with the kids. (That's the default in this country.)

Yes, she's one disrespectful b*tch. Lately she's been easy to deal with, but this act is unforgiveable.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Anyhow, besides that.. I feel I'm finally focused on the *now*. I felt resolve today for the first time in a while. I want to get smarter about the D. The issue I am having now is that my W does not report all of her income from her regular job or her moonlighting job, both of which she's paid in cash. If it were reported it would show she has a higher income than me and I would be eligible for child support payments. Which is something I really need because I am paid in a lower value currency AND I don't have the same benefits as she does as a citizen here. However, she could also force me to pay her for money she brought into the marriage, and it's a large sum. Over time the child support is more of course so I think I need to view this long term. It could be that we end up NOT being able to do a cooperative divorce and instead go the more expensive route. 

Any thoughts on that?

I also wanted to ask: how "flexible" are you with your custody schedules? Are you often swapping days with your Ex's so as to fit in the other's vacation times and things like that?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Wow, it's kind of scary how clear everything is becoming. Scary weird.


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## TNman (Dec 24, 2012)

Staystrong-it is good to see you in a better emotional state. My codependent issues with my narcissist wife who is dumping me has opened a whole can of worms that I never knew even existed. I have received a lot of help and strength from MelanieToniaEvans web pages on narcissistic spouses, codependency, and self healing. She has courses for money but there are tons of free resources that will help you. Some of it is wordy and ambiguous(for me anyway) but it has helped me tremendously- I was suicidal too-a horrible place to be. Hang in there and be the dad that your kids need and deserve.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

staystrong...

I am so dam proud of you. From wanting to kick you square in the balls to wanting to give you such a big bear hug right now...you are and have been taking your life back and wanting to take measures to stick up for yourself. 
You my friend...are soooo worth it... and stand up to her. You have rights as a father and financially. Do what you got to do...do what you can and take control in every aspect you can take control in...and keep on keepin' on...
I'm just so proud of you...I came on TAM today and you made me smile...and yanno what...'i' needed to smile today...


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Wow, it's kind of scary how clear everything is becoming. Scary weird.


Sounds like the head has been pulled out of the ass? 

I had to do that myself and when I did, it was an amazing feeling. For some reason I could see things differently and suddenly felt less bloated and fit to burst. Weird that. 

Things looked so different I started running every thought by other people to see if they actually made sense as they were so alien to the way I had been thinking. Imagine my surprise when it turned out what I was saying made sense to people!

No slacking now though, you have work to do my friend. :smthumbup:


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

TNman said:


> Staystrong-it is good to see you in a better emotional state. My codependent issues with my narcissist wife who is dumping me has opened a whole can of worms that I never knew even existed. I have received a lot of help and strength from MelanieToniaEvans web pages on narcissistic spouses, codependency, and self healing. She has courses for money but there are tons of free resources that will help you. Some of it is wordy and ambiguous(for me anyway) but it has helped me tremendously- I was suicidal too-a horrible place to be. Hang in there and be the dad that your kids need and deserve.


Thanks TNman. I didn't see this turnaround coming. But now I am like WTF was I thinking? I think it was an emotional overload from the turmoil and unresolved issues. I realize things are much better when I have my children with me. I'm grounded again. 

I checked out your link. I've read a bunch about NPD and I don't think my wife has it. She has some tendencies but there are certain important aspects (the rage, the mood swings, the coldness as a mother) that she does not have. She did have some other traits though and I did think it was interesting that NPD and anorexia/bulimia may be linked. My wife did have that earlier in life.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> staystrong...
> 
> I am so dam proud of you. From wanting to kick you square in the balls to wanting to give you such a big bear hug right now...you are and have been taking your life back and wanting to take measures to stick up for yourself.
> You my friend...are soooo worth it... and stand up to her. You have rights as a father and financially. Do what you got to do...do what you can and take control in every aspect you can take control in...and keep on keepin' on...
> I'm just so proud of you...I came on TAM today and you made me smile...and yanno what...'i' needed to smile today...


Thanks Stella!  I owe it to some good friends and family and to TAMers like you.

I know from the outside it seems like this guy (me) was just acting like a big p*ssy but really your mind will play tricks on you and dictate your actions. It's hard when you feel really really sunk down. You feel like "Game over, man". I just hope I don't have another bout of this soon.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Sounds like the head has been pulled out of the ass?
> 
> *I had to do that myself and when I did, it was an amazing feeling. For some reason I could see things differently* and suddenly felt less bloated and fit to burst. Weird that.
> 
> ...


Indeed you are correct on both counts. 

Thanks for your insights KC


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## TNman (Dec 24, 2012)

She may not be NPD but I think a lot of the advice and self healing blogs are helpful to everyone flattened by the betrayal from a spouse that you love/loved so much.


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## workingatit (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong you have come a long way! I think a lot of us wanted to kick you those first few pages....but look at you now! It is hard - no doubt....and it is hard to cycle through the thoughts and emotions...I am in it right now myself......but keep listening to and learning from the great people here on TAM...keep your venting here...your stories here...your tears here --- and everyone will help you get to a better place!!!!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Staystrong,

This sounds much better.

Whither my old pal Zappy?


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Thanks Stella!  I owe it to some good friends and family and to TAMers like you.
> 
> I know from the outside it seems like this guy (me) was just acting like a big p*ssy but really your mind will play tricks on you and dictate your actions. It's hard when you feel really really sunk down. You feel like "Game over, man". I just hope I don't have another bout of this soon.



I've been where you are...the sunk down...wanting to end it...Game over...

We can't let that happen man...we just can't.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

It's great. I feel like a toxin has been purged from my body. I hope this feeling lasts. I feel that almost all of my love for her is gone. 

It's like something clicked in my head. If we're going to be a family together, each of us better be ready to fight tooth and nail for each other. That's what I expect. I expect her to fight for me and the kids. She let an intruder in. She broke the code. She betrayed her H and her kids. And then she jumped ship. She's a traitor and she demonstrated an incredible lack of loyalty and integrity. She let her hormones and infatuation and her self interests drive her decisions, so she can go her own way. Biologically speaking, maybe she thought she found a "better mate" to help her take care of her and her kids, but I don't think that was her prime directive. I don't want a woman like that as my wife. Period. 

So what's next? I think I'd like to start dating! (Need to get in shape first.)


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-Trying to keep up with thread.....not much time lately. But I'm glad to see you are in a much better position.. Go kick some a$$


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

It's great to see a better attitude from you but be humble in your approach to this.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

:iagree:

Chances are you will have slips and stunbles along the path. They are fine, it's how you respond and pick yourself back up that is important.

With how recently you were in such pain, I'd be wary of dating. Socialise and meet people of both sexes by all means but I would be concerned about starting a new relationship so soon, even if intending to be casual about it. You need to be happy with yourself not mask the pain with a new relationship. Just IMO of course.


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## SecretTears (Jul 18, 2010)

staystrong said:


> It's like something clicked in my head. If we're going to be a family together, each of us better be ready to fight tooth and nail for each other. That's what I expect. I expect her to fight for me and the kids. She let an intruder in. She broke the code. She betrayed her H and her kids. And then she jumped ship. *She's a traitor and she demonstrated an incredible lack of loyalty and integrity.* She let her hormones and infatuation and her self interests drive her decisions, so she can go her own way. Biologically speaking, maybe she thought she found a "better mate" to help her take care of her and her kids, but I don't think that was her prime directive. *I don't want a woman like that as my wife. Period. *


Exactly!! I am so proud of you! Whenever you feel like you want her back, think about what you said right there and the strength you're showing by thinking and saying this! You are so right: she cheated on you and broke the vow! Why would you want someone like that in your life?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Good point KC and Up (is that you?).

But if I don't date, I'm just going to be alone. Alone is not good either. I kind of just want to let loose a little after all this wallowing.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



staystrong said:


> Good point KC and Up (is that you?).
> 
> But if I don't date, I'm just going to be alone. Alone is not good either. I kind of just want to let loose a little after all this wallowing.


A poor reasoning.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> A poor reasoning.


That's one opinion.

I say "Go for it".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

OT's got my back. Thanks OT. 

Granted, I don't even know what I'm looking for right now. Some fun, basically. A distraction. A new interest. It would have to be casual, but then sometimes you wind up hurting someone if it becomes more serious for them.

Basically, something I don't have to think too much about.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Dating and seeking an LTR are completely different. Go out and enjoy what you missed out on. You may or may not be ready for anything serious.....only you are the one who knows that.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> Dating and seeking an LTR are completely different. Go out and enjoy what you missed out on. You may or may not be ready for anything serious.....only you are the one who knows that.


^^^This^^^
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

staystrong said:


> OT's got my back. Thanks OT.


My pleasure. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Not saying not to. Just be very careful.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

staystrong said:


> OT's got my back. Thanks OT.
> 
> Granted, I don't even know what I'm looking for right now. Some fun, basically. A distraction. A new interest. It would have to be casual, but then sometimes you wind up hurting someone if it becomes more serious for them.
> 
> Basically, something I don't have to think too much about.


It's not difficult to find a woman who wants nothing more than to be FWB.

Believe me. I've got a couple of girlfriends that strictly stick to that type of 'relationship'.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



old timer said:


> That's one opinion.
> 
> I say "Go for it".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Opinions are always welcome.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

HappyKaty said:


> It's not difficult to find a woman who wants nothing more than to be FWB.
> 
> Believe me. I've got a couple of girlfriends that strictly stick to that type of 'relationship'.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pretty much what I had in mind, Katy.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

if its health coverage im there lol


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> OT's got my back. Thanks OT.
> 
> Granted, I don't even know what I'm looking for right now. Some fun, basically. A distraction. A new interest. *It would have to be casual, but then sometimes you wind up hurting someone if it becomes more serious for them.*
> 
> Basically, something I don't have to think too much about.





> It would have to be casual


This is your boundary in the 'relationship' (use the term loosely in this regard). If that is how you feel about it, then there is nothing wrong with it. Make your boundaries known then, when you proceed into something.



> But then sometimes you wind up hurting someone if it becomes more serious for them.


You show compassion with this thought, but if you do your part and establish your boundaries clear to the other party, there should be no such worry from your end. You are not responsible for how they react later on.

With that being said, if you happen to end up gaining feelings for the person then the shoe is on the other foot now. You could very well end up getting hurt but you have to realize that if they agree to the boundaries, you have to walk away with your head up and not take a huge emotional hit to the head.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I haven't taken an STD test yet.

I know, I know.

I believed my wife when she said her and OM's results shozed nothing. And so much other **** was happening at the same time I could not think straight.

I'm making an appt. I'm a bit afraid they gave me something. I just hope it's minor.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-Rocky.......round 5......keep punching


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I haven't taken an STD test yet.
> 
> I know, I know.


Gotta do it man. 

I did a while back. Came up clear. Funny thing - the statement was sent to X's apartment. :smthumbup:


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

LMAO how awesome


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

okay, i did something last that felt right but was not "smart".

stormed into my old apartment (still on the lease and have key) and trashed STBXW's candle and flowers celebration with OM. Proceeded to beat up OM. Happy Valentine's Day. I just hope I don't lose some custody over this.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

This is going to be something you end up regretting. Turning up was bad from your own progress point of view but getting physical with OM.. while understandable, is just giving the ex power and ammo.

I hope you have it back together, you have to start thinking with your mind not heart.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Fortunately I am not in the US so it's not all restraining orders and psych evals over here.

They may just let it pass, or use it as leverage but nothing more.

I know you don't understand but it's something I had to do, even if it's something I should have done much earlier. I took the "high road" earlier (met him but did not even threaten him) and as a result of my own pussiness, I just let anger and shame build up inside. Like others have said, this is due to us being raised that "confronting but not threatening or attacking" is the right thing to do. Honestly, it's not. When it's your family at stake, do what you need to do. Anyhow, I got it out of my system. Better now than in front of the children. 

He was not too badly hurt, I don' think. He was not defending himself, so it did not get bloody and I eventually lost the will to attack him.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I understand. I am actually quite wiling to resort to physicallity if needed. I certainly dont think "violence doesnt solve anything" but I dont see this being a good thing for you when access and custody could be at stake?

I hope it works out for you. POSOM gets no sympathy from me, I am just concerned about reprecussions for you.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS - 

I Know almost everyone on this forum is going to disagree with me but it warmed the ****les of my heart to hear you gave this little weasel the beating he deserved. So refreshing to hear of a situation where you didn't sob in your shrink's office or read ten self-help books. Like Tom Cruise said in "Risky Business" years ago, sometimes in life you just have to say WTF". 

But I do agree with KC, hope repercussions aren't too bad.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Time will tell if this hinders your custody.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> SS -
> 
> I Know almost everyone on this forum is going to disagree with me but it warmed the ****les of my heart to hear you gave this little weasel the beating he deserved. So refreshing to hear of a situation where you didn't sob in your shrink's office or read ten self-help books. Like Tom Cruise said in "Risky Business" years ago, sometimes in life you just have to say WTF".
> 
> But I do agree with KC, hope repercussions aren't too bad.


Thanks, I'm glad you approve, and yes it was better than tons of therapy. It was real catharsis. But my actions are way late. I already did the sobbing and some reading. Going after OM was something I should have done right after D-Day, because I can tell you it does feel like the right thing to do and it gives you a certain feeling of power in your self. A "F U, my family and I are not to be messed with" attitude which shows that you are not going to roll over for OM or be doormatted by your wife. 

I think it's the way I would have normally responded had my wife not trickle truthed me. My wife lied about who OM was and the extent of the affair. Eight days later when I learned the truth, a lot of the initial anger had passed through my body. I had already lost weight and lost sleep. My meeting with the real OM at that time was way too passive and "high road"y. I didn't want my wife to run and nurse him in case I got physical with him. What a sap I was. You have to stand up for yourself and exert a take no BS attitude. Be prepared to walk away with head held high. And prepared to fight. *You must be willing to lose your marriage to save your marriage; your self respect must come first. *Appealing to reason, the right thing to do, not breaking up a family, etc. Wrong wrong wrong. Even if he was a thoughtful OM, if there is such a thing, it shows them there is no consequence for their actions. They could do it again and what? Get another talking to? What would you do if you were the OM and the H of the woman you were banging DIDN'T physically threaten you? You's give him no respect, ultimately, even if you knew you were still doing the wrong thing. You HAVE to send a message, at the very least. Stern words and physical threats, not appeals to reason.

So I understand the advice given on this board all too well. Expose the affair, don't legitimize the OM, if you confront the OM be stern but don't get in legal trouble, etc. I honestly think this married OM might have run away had I done these things, and that will always be the regret of my life because I do think my marriage could have been saved through affair busting, close observation and R. Part of me know my wife was in love with him, but part of me knows my wife would have responded to me well had I been more of a man at that time. I saw her vacillating, and it kills me knowing I did not give it my manly best. I know others here will tell me it's delusional thinking, but it's a delusion I will always hold onto. A spouse goes wayward, which means they need straightening out.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS -

I have to tell you, your latest post was the best I've read in this forum ever!

Threats and intimidation! Some guy is trying to steal your W permanently and you didn't settle for NC and a book on how to swallow your pain and agony, to choke it all down! You kicked his sorry azz!!!! So freaking refreshing to hear with all the hand-wringing milquetoasts on here. Yes, you don't want legal trouble or to be sitting in jail, but you still made at least some of us proud.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

even if it was late, better late than never


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Well....I wouldn't have done it for fear of the custody isssue. However, I handled my situation pretty strongly from the beginning. I definitely was not the groveling mess you were. I was on the inside but not in her eyes if you know what I mean.

However, Your wife will never view you or that POSOM in the same light anymore. You were weak in her eyes (NOT ANYMORE) and now the POSOM is. So heres a big pat on the back from me. I just pray it doesn't hurt you legally.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Bravo
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Thanks guys.

Bullwinkle, you nailed it. It's risky to advise people to confront OM (that advice could lead to jail, hospital, court or worse) but I hope they do it. 

GutPunch, there's probably an equal chance she views me as psycho. But for the first time since D-Day, I really don't care what she thinks. I'm a free man now. let her take care of her weasel home wrecker. They F'ed up a nice family and a message needed to be sent. I finally got so tired of holding back. Payback's a b!tch.

Yes, crossing my fingers over here.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> Bullwinkle, you nailed it. It's risky to advise people to confront OM (that advice could lead to jail, hospital, court or worse) but I hope they do it.
> 
> ...


You still care what she thinks but for right now you "don't care" because in your own way you've proven yourself to her.

In your post previous to this you still blame yourself for her leaving because you weren't "man enough", think you could have straightened her out.

So you are correct in stating that it's delusional thinking and it's quite the delusion to live in a delusion knowing it's delusional, yet accept it.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> So you are correct in stating that it's delusional thinking and it's quite the delusion to live in a delusion knowing it's delusional, yet accept it.



Huh?


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> Bullwinkle, you nailed it. It's risky to advise people to confront OM (that advice could lead to jail, hospital, court or worse) but I hope they do it.
> 
> ...



Who cares what she thinks. Subcosciously her new man just toted one from old man. If anything, your self esteem shot up. HAHA I'm loving it. It is not psycho to beat the shi* out of a man banging your wife. It's almost harder not too.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> Huh?





staystrong said:


> Part of me know my wife was in love with him, but part of me knows my wife would have responded to me well had I been more of a man at that time. I saw her vacillating, and it kills me knowing I did not give it my manly best. *I know others here will tell me it's delusional thinking, but it's a delusion I will always hold onto*. A spouse goes wayward, which means they need straightening out.


He's essentially walking around with a bag of delusion in hand, admitting he will 'hold onto it always'.

It's delusional to think it appropriate to validate his delusion by stating he's aware of it.

Almost like Inception .. of a delusional kind.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS -

You see what a little bit of cajones does to stir the passion on this forum? I would submit to you that you WANT her to think you're psycho. Unpredictable. Not home calling your shrink to blubber or making a list of all your faults. 

When I get the evidence I need to confront OM, I'm going to make him regret the way he disrespected me and my family. Nuff said.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> He's essentially walking around with a bag of delusion in hand, admitting he will 'hold onto it always'.
> 
> It's delusional to think it appropriate to validate his delusion by stating he's aware of it.
> 
> Almost like Inception .. of a delusional kind.


AHhhh...Remember I am from Alabama. All we know how to do down here is drink beer and play football.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Oh dude...just catching up on your thread...

I think it's totally freaking awesome and hilarious you went and kicked his azz! LMFAO! 
You had this built up in you for so dam long. I wish I could have seen it. 

If I could kick my stbxh azz for what he's done to me and could get a jab in the gut at his dad ....I'm sorry folks...ok...no...I'm not....I sure shxt would! Pay back is a Bxtch and in some cases I really believe eye for an eye...

I say good for you dude...and I don't give a crap what anybody thinks. You can smack him in the face with a self help book to boot! Yup!


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

That'll be a valentines to remember! Friggin hilarious!:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Dayum....that had to have been liberating...


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Just the right medicine for ole staystrong.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> Just the right medicine for ole staystrong.


Do ya think? 

And no one gave him _that_ advice! LOL! :scratchhead:


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

If only I could go around punching every Tom, Dyck and Harry that ever wronged me.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> Do ya think?
> 
> And no one gave him _that_ advice! LOL! :scratchhead:


That's because it usually ends up causing legal problems to which stack against what the person is trying to work towards. Such as custody of children or reducing legal costs in general.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> That's because it usually ends up causing legal problems to which stack against what the person is trying to work towards. Such as custody of children or reducing legal costs in general.


Well ya... 

I realize this.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> If only I could go around punching every Tom, Dyck and Harry that ever wronged me.




Hmph...only one...maybe two for me..._I can let the others slide... _


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> Hmph...only one...maybe two for me..._I can let the others slide... _


Time will tell how this turns out for him in the long run. He's been so angry with everything that it's now turned towards the posOM and it was the first physical thing he was able to take it out on.

It will either solve some internal issue he has and finally release the anger or it could go a number of other ways. In a few days he may very well feel ashamed, he does have children of course and who knows if they will ever find out about it. They may not react in his favor, which could play a huge decision in the custody for them.

I know of a few others who have done such things and ended up regretting it in the end, even after running there mouths for days on end. Which makes it even worse for them, seeing how they were 'oh so macho' at the start.

All a matter of perspective I suppose.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> Time will tell how this turns out for him in the long run. He's been so angry with everything that it's now turned towards the posOM and it was the first physical thing he was able to take it out on.
> 
> It will either solve some internal issue he has and finally release the anger or it could go a number of other ways. In a few days he may very well feel ashamed, he does have children of course and who knows if they will ever find out about it. They may not react in his favor, which could play a huge decision in the custody for them.
> 
> ...



I know.. and your right...and yes it is a matter of perspective...and yes there are kids and ya possible cosequences...
but it is friggin' hilarious...and for once...someone on TAM gave an Azzhole an Azzkickin' for participating in wife stealing...

so be it. :smthumbup:


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> I know.. and your right...and yes it is a matter of perspective...and yes there are kids and ya possible cosequences...
> but it is friggin' hilarious...and for once...someone on TAM gave an Azzhole an Azzkickin' for participating in *wife stealing*...
> 
> so be it. :smthumbup:


Seems to be a common trend of forgetting the ex is completely responsible for there own actions.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> Seems to be a common trend of forgetting the ex is completely responsible for there own actions.


That's not what I was implying.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Only a couple of confidants know about this, and they had mixed feelings about it because of the custody issue. One was very happy and can see that the "circle is complete". I'm not the type to go run my mouth about it at the bar or something. And if my kids ever find out about it, I doubt they will hold it against me.

I doubt I'm going to feel any shame about this in a couple of days. Maybe year down the road when I reach enlightenment by staring at a snail while working in the garden or something.

I know a snakey little coward when I see one, and he is one. Under his guise of compassion and sensitivity and finding his soulmate in my wife. F that slimey turd. He's probably going to take his lumps to show my STBXW what an honorable guy he is by taking it. Don't forget OM's done this before. Twice. Once when he was married (three year affair) and one time when he was single. He got a married woman pregnant and she aborted.

My wife didn't get off the hook at all; in fact most of my energies to this day have been focused on her. I told her what I think of her, that's she a broken person and a traitor to her family. There was more I would have like to have said, some more from the wounded heart and less a place of contempt.

In a way, they should be happy. I was able to get it out of my system. I don't feel the need to trouble them anymore. How many times have I paced around my kitchen in anger, or banged my desk, or cursed at the top of my lungs while driving the car? This affair probably took years off my life and subjected me to untold heart conditions and cancers. 

No, the therapy was clear: OM needed to get his just desserts. Yes, Daddio, someone had to pay for breaking up this family, and he sure seems like an appropriate target. Like I said, I only wish I had done it earlier. I have finally found some peace within myself.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Hard to argue with that Staystrong. I would have wanted to do the same if I am honest. I just pray it doesnt bite you on the ass but then I have no idea how it could affect things. Is it possible to get legal advice about it? Is that even a good idea if you can? I wish I knew but watch out for her using it against you somehow.

You feel better able to focus on you and the kids now rather than them? That is a victory in itself if so.

For good or ill it was a strong message from Staystrong and I for one am delighted to see that change from a little while ago.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> You still care what she thinks but for right now you "don't care" because in your own way you've proven yourself to her.
> 
> In your post previous to this you still blame yourself for her leaving because you weren't "man enough", think you could have straightened her out.
> 
> So you are correct in stating that it's delusional thinking and it's quite the delusion to live in a delusion knowing it's delusional, yet accept it.


I know what Daddio is saying.

Would you prefer I say to myself there was never a chance at R? I would have liked the chance for my family and for myself and even for my wife. Who knows, maybe I would have realized through R that the substance of our couple was gone, that I could not live with someone who disrespected me in such a way. 

Honestly, her thoughts are not on my mind right now. I see her as separate from me, I'm no longer intertwined with her. I finally have some space in my head for me and my kids and next steps. For months I've been reeling, depressed and faltering at what I've been trying to do. I gave it to him well and good and g dammit it got me out of my funk.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Hard to argue with that Staystrong. I would have wanted to do the same if I am honest. I just pray it doesnt bite you on the ass but then I have no idea how it could affect things. Is it possible to get legal advice about it? Is that even a good idea if you can? I wish I knew but watch out for her using it against you somehow.
> 
> You feel better able to focus on you and the kids now rather than them? That is a victory in itself if so.
> 
> For good or ill it was a strong message from Staystrong and I for one am delighted to see that change from a little while ago.


Thanks KC. It's, ahem, a real 180 from where I was a week ago.

All that anger I was internalizing I finally externalized. 

A psychologist may say I should've gone to the gym because violence is not healthy. But punching a heavy bag brings no sense of justice.

Yes, the real victory is that I am much more present for me and my girls now.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Only a couple of confidants know about this, and they had mixed feelings about it because of the custody issue. One was very happy and can see that the "circle is complete". I'm not the type to go run my mouth about it at the bar or something. And if my kids ever find out about it, I doubt they will hold it against me.
> 
> I doubt I'm going to feel any shame about this in a couple of days. Maybe year down the road when I reach enlightenment by staring at a snail while working in the garden or something.
> 
> ...



...and understand staystrong...that was it...that was your 'deal'...you don't get to do that agian...ok? No walking around all puffed up...and threatening...embrace what happened and be content with it...so you no longer have to bang the desk or curse at the top of your lungs...(well that's not so bad  ) I mean... you know what I mean...

You made your point. Use it to heal...as part of your healing as you said you finally found some peace...I know that feeeling...I had it when I was granted the restraining order and my stbxh lost his job (i no longer had to work with him anymore) ...'I know that peace'... I really do... 

And yanno what...I'm glad for you. You needed that. When I read that I laughed out loud and said "good for him!" 

But that's it. And I'm sure you know this...but I have to hear myself say it...don't go back there and beat him up again..lol...ok? 

No using your key...no going back into the apt. You gave them a Valentine to remember and leave it at that... 

I know you know this...as I said I have to type it to reasure myself my friend is going to 'be ok'...and not in jail... I can't bail you out from here...  

...and you do have the kids... 

So lecture over...I wrote this more for me...I'm sure... 

but yea...I'm dam glad for you. If I could get a few licks in myself and my stbxh couldn't hit back (cos he'd kill me) I sure would take a bat and beat his azz for the things he'd done to me...he was a strong rough man when he put his hands on me...dam straight if I could take a bat... yea..I'd have some more peace too...I'd break his wrist...like he broke mine..snapped it in half he did (scaphoid bone)...f'ker... 

anyway...
off the soap box...just wanted to have a say...


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I'd return the key now btw.. Just to avoid temptation.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Nah...don't go back of course...but keep the key...keep them on their toes

Jk


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

I honestly wish I would have done a good [email protected]@ kicking on posow when I found out about her, instead I kick the sh!t out of my H. Yep, not sure I talked about that on my thread but I did, gave him a few good punches and kicks, let it all out. It was when we were still living together and he had the nerve to bring home his dirty laundry from posow house, and dropped it at my feet to wash. What?! No effin way. Of course I've never shown any type of anger or violence since but dam it felt good. And I would do it to posow if we ever cross paths, I have no doubt in my mind, as long as D isn't around. 

I can't imagine any fair judge holding this against you. I say good for you and good on him. Just don't do it again of course lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

familyfirst09 said:


> I honestly wish I would have done a good [email protected]@ kicking on posow when I found out about her, instead I kick the sh!t out of my H. Yep, not sure I talked about that on my thread but I did, gave him a few good punches and kicks, let it all out. *It was when we were still living together and he had the nerve to bring home his dirty laundry from posow house, and dropped it at my feet to wash. *What?! No effin way. Of course I've never shown any type of anger or violence since but dam it felt good. And I would do it to posow if we ever cross paths, I have no doubt in my mind, as long as D isn't around.
> 
> I can't imagine any fair judge holding this against you. I say good for you and good on him. Just don't do it again of course lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd be pulling out a machete. 

"Oh he!! No you just didn't do that?"


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

spinning Motley Crue "kicking a$$ on the wild side" dedicated to staystrong......


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Yes, I needed it but it's also a result of initial inaction, which in turn was a result of being trickle truthed. It doesn't matter.. my STBXW and OM both are not going to press charges. They understand why I did it. He did cut his head open on something and had to go to the hospital. It's a one time deal. Who knows, maybe he'll get pissed in a few days and come looking for me.

We're continuing with a cooperative divorce, so I guess that's for the better. Trying to keep the legal costs down.

With a lot of the anger and shame gone, I still do feel a lot of sadness. The whole "Why did this have to happen? Why wasn't our love enough? Why did our family have to be broken?" type of questions. I still miss my life with a heavy heart. I miss love, comfort, family pride, normalcy, etc. I miss it very much.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Yes, I needed it but it's also a result of initial inaction, which in turn was a result of being trickle truthed. It doesn't matter.. my STBXW and OM both are not going to press charges. They understand why I did it. He did cut his head open on something and had to go to the hospital. It's a one time deal. Who knows, maybe he'll get pissed in a few days and come looking for me.
> 
> We're continuing with a cooperative divorce, so I guess that's for the better. Trying to keep the legal costs down.
> 
> With a lot of the anger and shame gone, I still do feel a lot of sadness. The whole "Why did this have to happen? Why wasn't our love enough? Why did our family have to be broken?" type of questions. I still miss my life with a heavy heart. I miss love, comfort, family pride, normalcy, etc. I miss it very much.



yea...those feelings are still gonna be there...there going to come and go...fade and be strong some days...you need to learn to work through them...just like we all do. No going back into your dark black hole of self wanting death type stuff though...your out of that and done with that...now it's about working through the rest like we all do. 
Your still gonna feel pain. Your still human. Meds counseling...kids...friends...socialize...TAM...figure it out...cope! 

You've begun your road to recovery...keep moving forward...and you began with a dam good giant leap...I did too...it pulled us out of our black azz slumps...but we have to progress...not regress...

keep figuring it out...daily.


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## SecretTears (Jul 18, 2010)

staystrong said:


> With a lot of the anger and shame gone, I still do feel a lot of sadness. The whole "Why did this have to happen? Why wasn't our love enough? Why did our family have to be broken?" type of questions.


I think we all have these types of questions. To be totally honest, you and I will never really know the answers. We will think about it, mull it over, speculate but in reality it doesn't change a thing. I think that some questioning is good but don't drive yourself crazy with it because you will never know. 



staystrong said:


> I still miss my life with a heavy heart. I miss love, comfort, family pride, normalcy, etc. I miss it very much.


If you do the 180 well and work on yourself and start enjoying your own time and routine, this will pass. You will find a new normal and comfort and pride in what you've overcome and in the new person you've become. That is one thing that I am having success with so I can personally vouch for. 

And then when you're ready, love will come . (ok that might be a cliche but hey odds are you will fall in love again someday)


----------



## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

When I had the urge to hurt the POSOM, the thought that kept coming to mind was, if it wasn't him, it would have been someone else. I hold my ex responsible for what happened. Decent married women have boundaries and when they get hit on, they firmly let the guy know they're not interested. I did confront him early on and verbally attacked him, but I have a child and I'm her main caregiver. Couldn't take the chance.

What helped me too was knowing that she will cheat on him and rip him apart and that will hurt much more than any beating. I understand why Staystrong did what he did and if there are no repercussions, I applaud you. Now, I have no urge to harm or say anything more to him. The rage dissipated.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> When I had the urge to hurt the POSOM, the thought that kept coming to mind was, if it wasn't him, it would have been someone else. I hold my ex responsible for what happened. Decent married women have boundaries and when they get hit on, they firmly let the guy know they're not interested. I did confront him early on and verbally attacked him, but I have a child and I'm her main caregiver. Couldn't take the chance.
> 
> What helped me too was knowing that she will cheat on him and rip him apart and that will hurt much more than any beating. I understand why Staystrong did what he did and if there are no repercussions, I applaud you. Now, I have no urge to harm or say anything more to him. The rage dissipated.


I wonder if most serious OMs realize they deserve to take the punishment the WH dishes out on them. They might be too ashamed to bring it up to the police and they might also feel responsible if they land the father of AP's children in jail.

Yes, decent married women have boundaries but let's not forget that some men have no objection to chip away at those boundaries or take advantage of vulnerabilities. I blame my wife of course, but the deal with OM was a question of honor.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Honor. Respect. 

SS, this is the stuff we tend to lose sight of sometimes. 

I can sit at home and do the 180 and go NC till Hell freezes over and meanwhile OM is jumping my WS's bones and then sitting on my ex-couch drinking my ex-beer. But no. 

There's a reason your thread has inspired so much passion, SS. For a fleeting moment you put honor and respect ahead of all these other endless Dr. Phil moments. 

Glad you're not in a holding cell but you did the right thing.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

SS, you bring up a good point. They know they deserve a pounding, I'm sure if they were the ones being cheated on they would be considering it. Such a huge risk, I wasn't willing to take. If there wasn't a child involved, I would have gotten physical.

Yeah, there are some real lowlifes out there, who like you say are very persistent. A married woman should never give in no matter how hard a guy tries. Millions resist. I say, if you're done with me, get out, get an apartment, and divorce me. Then you can F whoever you want. Don't cheat. Cheaters are weak cowards.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> SS, you bring up a good point. They know they deserve a pounding, I'm sure if they were the ones being cheated on they would be considering it. Such a huge risk, I wasn't willing to take. If there wasn't a child involved, I would have gotten physical.
> 
> Yeah, there are some real lowlifes out there, who like you say are very persistent. A married woman should never give in no matter how hard a guy tries. Millions resist. I say, if you're done with me, get out, get an apartment, and divorce me. Then you can F whoever you want. Don't cheat. Cheaters are weak cowards.


What you did was the responsible thing to do, though I wonder if one-time revenge acts are looked at with leniency.

Cheaters ARE cowards.

Did I mention OM wouldn't put up much of a fight? I still gave it to him, though. Nothing brutal, but I wasn't about to let his bull**** sensitive guy routine get him out of it. He didn't defend himself much and in a sense he didn't defend my wife when I kicked him out of the apartment. How did he know I wouldn't have hurt my wife in my anger? I would never have left my woman like that, even if it was with her ex.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Well, the drama from last week seems to have subsided. 

Wife and OM were reasonable enough not to press charges still though a report was filed.

Where am I at?

Back to the same old place I was at before, but with less anger and shame. Well, I am still angry about her stranding me in her country. The kids were with me last week but now they are with her and the house is very quiet and I'm very lonely. I'm sorry, I just don't get how she could do this to me. Person to person, loved one to loved one (for seven years at least).. how do you F over someone like that? Ironically, she thinks of herself as independent and would've handled this differently than me. What she doesn't see is how dependent she really is on other people, especially her family here. Meanwhile I have no family here, and only a couple of (new) friends. No wonder I'm so angry still. That and I miss my life and the love we shared. Bloody hell, life is tough. 

People on TAM are trying to tell me I'm codependent. I don't know; I see it but I don't. I think that my life was so tied together to my wife and family given my circumstances (foreign country, work from home, no social network, etc.) Yes, I have a case of one-itis hence the thread topic title. It's still hard for me to move forward. Indfidelity and abandonment may be the cruelest things a spouse could do to another.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Ugh. I want to just send her an email right now telling her how horrible I think she is. Honestly, who strands their H in a foreign country and what kind of mother moves OM in three days after H leaves? We had barely separated. This makes me want to go back and have a second round with OM. These two are real dogs, IMO.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

This is small consolation, but remember that people do what they want to do, nothing you can do but accept that. She cheated/left you for one reason: she wanted to. Don't try to figure it out, it's a waste of time. Vows mean very little to some people. I would prefer the sky was green, but it isn't and never will be, so accept it's blue and move forward. I think you need a distraction so you can get away from the tape that's running through your mind for while. I ride a stationary bike for hours at a time while reading, forcing myself to focus on the subject. It helps, maybe doing two things at once is sufficient for me to be distracted, plus exercise is a mood elevator. Now if I could add gum chewing to that to that routine....


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## SecretTears (Jul 18, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Ugh. I want to just send her an email right now telling her how horrible I think she is.


If you really want to do that, why don't you write her a letter (in pen and paper) but DON'T send it... at least for now. Keep it around with the promise that if you still feel that way in 6 months then you send it. 

Also, sending her the letter will boost her ego because she will think she has 2 men fighting over her. You really want to give her that satisfaction? 

Not sure which country you're in but can you use that as an opportunity to go out and explore, learn the language and the culture (you will meet some other expats at these things + it's fun)


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Well, the drama from last week seems to have subsided.
> 
> Wife and OM were reasonable enough not to press charges still though a report was filed.
> 
> ...


I just looked up codependent thinking in wikipedia.

They'd already grabbed this post and used it as the example.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I just looked up codependent thinking in wikipedia.
> 
> They'd already grabbed this post and used it as the example.



Granted, that's very funny Conrad but either I still don't fully see it or I don't want to see it. I've read some the posts started by you, Katy and Hermes and I just don't see myself or my wife reflected in those posts. 

I got shafted by the person I loved and trusted. Can't I just be considered heartbroken and bitter?


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Granted, that's very funny Conrad but either I still don't fully see it or I don't want to see it. I've read some the posts started by you, Katy and Hermes and I just don't see myself or my wife reflected in those posts.
> 
> I got shafted by the person I loved and trusted. Can't I just be considered heartbroken and bitter?


Only if you'd like to repeat the process in your next relationship.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Spun, Conrad

I read through many articles on the site Spun referenced, here's an example one: HAVEN'T WE MET BEFORE? The Borderline/Narcissist Couple

I think I would be happier if I could say my wife is BDP/NPD and I am CD or N, but after reading through all of the material I just don't think it's the case. It's kind of like reading a horoscope - some of the things ring true but there are some critical pieces which don't match up. 

It was definitely educational, though. And yes, I am shattered from this experience so I want to find some sort of explanation to wrap my head around. Certainly, my wife has issues if she's cheated on and left both her husbands before she's even reached 35 years of age, and ostensibly I must have some issues to be with someone who is capable of such harm.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Its why its so important at this very moment to start working on yourself - forget her and the choices she's made. Yes, its difficult because of the children - but its out of your hands at this very moment. 

Address your short comings and get to know yourself - when you are ready, you'll be more equipped to pick a better mate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I hear you. It just seems like such a long road ahead and some days it is hard to get out of bed.

Being in a foreign country (with foreign language) just makes all of this worse. It's hard to meet people and I have no family or friends here. This is why some of you don't understand why I am depressed more than others on this board. I'm completely out of my element. Family life was the center of it all here for me. I work from home and have very little contact with other people. Some days I just sink like a stone.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Trying to get her to pay 1/2 of the plane tix back to the USA each year for the children's summer vacation.

Also trying to get her to pay half the monthly costs of an English program at the school the kids attend.

Are these things unreasonable to ask, in your opinions?


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Trying to get her to pay 1/2 of the plane tix back to the USA each year for the children's summer vacation.
> 
> Also trying to get her to pay half the monthly costs of an English program at the school the kids attend.
> 
> Are these things unreasonable to ask, in your opinions?


Of course not.

But, I expect her mileage to vary.

She's an entitled princess.

They don't do logic.


----------



## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Spun, Conrad
> 
> I read through many articles on the site Spun referenced, here's an example one: HAVEN'T WE MET BEFORE? The Borderline/Narcissist Couple
> 
> ...


SS,

Your right. Some traits won't fit.

They are spectrum disorders...not an "all or nothing" thing.

The fact that you are seeing some of you and you ex in these descriptions is a clue.

None of us have been perfectly parented.

Thus, we all carry childhood wounds in adulthood and into our relationships.

You would not be here right now if you didn't.

Waking up is difficult.

It's far easier to remain asleep.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Spun, Conrad
> 
> I read through many articles on the site Spun referenced, here's an example one: HAVEN'T WE MET BEFORE? The Borderline/Narcissist Couple
> 
> ...


SS,

Any relationship that begins as cheating on someone else has major hurdles.

She did it to him, why wouldn't she do it to you?

And, she's sure you would do it to her.

Tough road.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Of course not.
> 
> But, I expect her mileage to vary.
> 
> ...


I don't know. She's definitely shown herself to be self-centered and entitled ("don't we all deserve to be happy?" "life is love love is life, and i love to love" foggy talk) but she doesn't fall into that neat stereotype I've read on shrink4men and other sites. For example, she's not volatile with her moods and doesn't rage, though that came out during the affair period and after. She doesn't want to really look at what she's done, and talking about the past or talking about money angers her.

I told her if our roles were reversed I would certainly pay for half the tickets.

I think beating up POSOM on Valentine's Day has made her less flexible and less sympathetic. I can understand that, but I have to remind her why we are here in the first place.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

spun said:


> SS,
> 
> Your right. Some traits won't fit.
> 
> ...



Good points.

However, on Schreiber's site, she was saying that 99% of men who fall for women with BPD have a domineering mother and passive father. This was not the case for me. However, my wife is in helping profession so that rang true. Some other things rang true as well. The passive-aggressive traits for sure.

So do you suggest I try to find a therapist well-versed in CD, BPD, etc. and the trauma of infidelity? Could be hard where I'm at. I noticed some practitioners in the USA doing phone/Skype sessions but they were expensive. The psych at shrink4men charges $160 an hour. Ooph.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Entitled princesses-holier than thou
they have a Bible for:
themselves
their family / friends
the commoners (you and I)

and we wonder why the dynasties in Europe fell in the 18-19th century


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> SS,
> 
> Any relationship that begins as cheating on someone else has major hurdles.
> 
> ...


I know, I don't have an answer for that other than we have kids and the infidelity seemed like it was so far in the past. And so may relationships start that way, I hate to say it. 

She's sure I would do it to her but I did not. That's the point. I wouldn't have done it to HER or our kids. I loved her therefore I wouldn't have done it. My mistake was thinking that the cheating was isolated to her previous relationship. That it was a byproduct of unhappiness and wouldn't be repeated with me because hey we were happy? (or so I thought) A buddy of mine did try to warn me at the beginning but I did not pay any attention. He had real concerns that we started out this way; also though my wife was somewhat self-centered (she didn't want to flow with what others were doing).


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> Entitled princesses-holier than thou
> they have a Bible for:
> themselves
> their family / friends
> ...


I think my wife must be high-functioning then, because she's not one of those vain chicks you see getting their nails done and b*tching about their husbands all day. But there was something about her that bothers me - it's as if sometimes she feels more special or superior to others, or that regular rules don't apply to her.

She did have a real issue with having to be the breadwinner while I started an online business. She couldn't take the stress that we were "breaking even". For her, a man has to earn money. Well, that's what I was trying to do - not all businesses succeed in their first year. Anyhow, something I read on that Schreiber site stuck with me. She said that men who fall for BDPs often wonder if all women are like that. I'm definitely pretty traumatized by the attractive, charming and alluring woman my wife is/was. But I'm no super Mr. Nice Guy. I have my own selfish streak; I must if I hooked up with her while she was married. Or maybe that was just the loose morals and lack of integrity I had back then. I feel very ashamed about that now.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> I think my wife must be high-functioning then, because she's not one of those vain chicks you see getting their nails done and b*tching about their husbands all day.


She doesn't b*tch about them, she just goes and finds posOM.

So glad she doesn't sit around b*tching.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Your wife is half Indian half bulldog
either on the warpath
or sitting on her a$$ growling


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Your wife reminds me of mine.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Good points.
> 
> However, on Schreiber's site, she was saying that 99% of men who fall for women with BPD have a domineering mother and passive father. This was not the case for me.


It is the case with me. I married the perfect blend of my mother and my schizo older sister who helped raise me. 

And I became passive like my father.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

zillard said:


> It is the case with me. I married the perfect blend of my mother and my schizo older sister who helped raise me.
> 
> And I became passive like my father.


My sisters treated me like crap.

I tried to get them to like me.

There ya go.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Conrad said:


> My sisters treated me like crap.
> 
> I tried to get them to like me.
> 
> There ya go.


I tried to please my mother as she was always too busy with the large family to give me (a middle child) attention. 

I tried to help and protect my sister-mother as most of the family avoided her. 

X - inattentive woman I tried to please by helping and protecting


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> Your wife reminds me of mine.


Gut, your wife intrigues me. I don't think your wife can sustain herself as she is for a long time. She's got to have an Oh Sh!t moment coming her way.. if not about you, then certainly about her daughter. I hope she wakes up and realizes what she's done. You may not want to rescue her by that point.

My wife is deadset on what she's doing and no none can stop her. She's a POS for moving OM in with our kids so shortly after separation, and that there is the clue - to me at least - that she has some kind of disorder. The disrespect shown for me and the kids would be too much for a normal person to muster.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

zillard said:


> I tried to please my mother as she was always too busy with the large family to give me (a middle child) attention.
> 
> I tried to help and protect my sister-mother as most of the family avoided her.
> 
> X - inattentive woman I tried to please by helping and protecting


You have clarity, though, and that's a good thing.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

zillard said:


> I tried to please my mother as she was always too busy with the large family to give me (a middle child) attention.
> 
> I tried to help and protect my sister-mother as most of the family avoided her.
> 
> X - inattentive woman I tried to please by helping and protecting


You do realize those with personality disorders are eternally distracted. So, by rule, they are the most inattentive.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Conrad said:


> You do realize those with personality disorders are eternally distracted. So, by rule, they are the most inattentive.


It makes sense. So much inner conflict, fear and anxiety that they simply can not focus on the present long enough to enjoy it. Either reliving the past or fearful that the future will be the same... or worse. 

The only way to focus on the present is to distract from the inner dialogue by feeding any number of instant gratification addictions. And if anything gets too emotional, the fear that it won't last or is undeserved kicks in and slams them back into survival mode. Fight or flight.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

zillard said:


> It makes sense. So much inner conflict, fear and anxiety that they simply can not focus on the present long enough to enjoy it. Either reliving the past or fearful that the future will be the same... or worse.
> 
> The only way to focus on the present is to distract from the inner dialogue by feeding any number of instant gratification addictions. And if anything gets too emotional, the fear that it won't last or is undeserved kicks in and slams them back into survival mode. Fight or flight.


Word


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

zillard said:


> It makes sense. So much inner conflict, fear and anxiety that they simply can not focus on the present long enough to enjoy it. Either reliving the past or fearful that the future will be the same... or worse.
> 
> The only way to focus on the present is to distract from the inner dialogue by feeding any number of instant gratification addictions. And if anything gets too emotional, the fear that it won't last or is undeserved kicks in and slams them back into survival mode. Fight or flight.


Can you give concrete examples?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I'm, starting to feel some shame about attacking OM last week. Not that I don't think he deserved some kind of punishment, but I start to wonder what's it all for? I don't want to hurt people, but I just felt I needed some primal justice.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Minor example:

We'd go out to eat. X is anxious the whole time. Tells me how she's constantly worrying about the house burning down, someone getting in a car wreck, etc. Basically playing out all the worst case scenarios in her head constantly. 

The negativity affects her. Scowl. Criticizing everything under her breath. Pointing out flaws in others. We aren't seated fast enough. Server didn't smile big enough. etc.

Until she gets her margarita. Before it can even get in her blood stream she's calm and laughing, enjoying her night. By the time we get home she's grumpy again. The house didn't burn down, nobody crashed, we ate good food, we laughed. But for her it's back to anxiety mode. What about tomorrow? What about tonight? There could be lightning. Date mood over. 

Extreme example:

We had an argument in the kitchen for about an hour one night. We made up, got emotional and had make up sex there in the kitchen. Right after we hear the neighbors dogs barking and she starts complaining again. I step outside on the patio and she locks the door, flips me off and goes to bed - leaving me outside all night. 

Next day she doesn't remember locking me out. Doesn't remember the make up sex. Doesn't remember making up. Only remembers the argument. So therefore does not need to apologize as it's my fault.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Deniability 101
Covert Analysis 201
Conflict of thy Self 301
Character Transfer 401
Demons in her Subconscienceness grad thesis


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Often the people in the past who hurt them the most, as children, were the people they loved the most and looked to for protection and survival. 

When things become too comfortable or too emotional, they have an intense fear that you, their loved one, will betray them too. 

So they push you away so you can't. Or they run.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I'm, starting to feel some shame about attacking OM last week. Not that I don't think he deserved some kind of punishment, but I start to wonder what's it all for? I don't want to hurt people, but I just felt I needed some primal justice.


The need to "force" accountability in such a way acts to reinforce low self worth.

Its subconscious self defeat.

It's a paradox. Through one's need to control others, they actually lose control of the only one they can control...

Themself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

zillard said:


> Minor example:
> 
> We'd go out to eat. X is anxious the whole time. Tells me how she's constantly worrying about the house burning down, someone getting in a car wreck, etc. Basically playing out all the worst case scenarios in her head constantly.
> 
> ...


Ok, you got me to laugh with that last one.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

spun said:


> The need to "force" accountability in such a way acts to reinforce low self worth.
> 
> Its subconscious self defeat.
> 
> ...


Well, we fight for our marriage and family when they are in danger. We don't let our wives go to see OM just because they want to. We try to bust the affairs, track our WSs in some cases, and say it's either me or a divorce. 

It was a delayed anger response. Loss of control, sure.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

zillard said:


> Minor example:
> 
> We'd go out to eat. X is anxious the whole time. Tells me how she's constantly worrying about the house burning down, someone getting in a car wreck, etc. Basically playing out all the worst case scenarios in her head constantly.
> 
> ...



Wow, that's uhh.. very disturbing.

Yeah, my wife was not like that.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Interesting article by Dr. Harley on co-dependency:
How the Co-dependency Movement Is Ruining Marriages


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I don't know how you guys handle it so well and in stride.

I feel like I've come apart at the seams. 

As spun pointed out, attacking OM is probably just another indication of that.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Let me elaborate...

I have one-itis yet simultaneously think of my wife as a wh0re for what she did. Is that my own immaturity or displaced self-hate? I know you aren't professional psychologists, but you guys have been through this. I would like to be able to look at the mother of my kids as a normal person. If she had really tried to reconcile, I think I could do that. Is she still a "good" person regardless? I know, I'm focusing on her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Let me elaborate...
> 
> I have one-itis yet simultaneously think of my wife as a wh0re for what she did. Is that my own immaturity or displaced self-hate? I know you aren't professional psychologists, but you guys have been through this. I would like to be able to look at the mother of my kids as a normal person. If she had really tried to reconcile, I think I could do that. Is she still a "good" person regardless? I know, I'm focusing on her.


Thank you for saying it first.

What are you doing for you?


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Keeping my head above water is about as much as I can do. 

I stay away from alcohol but I'm not eating well. I'm having difficulty taking care of myself. I left the wet laundry in the washer for 2 days straight.

My passion for life has been sucked out of me. I used to be an outgoing, fun-loving person but now I am a hermit. It's cold here so I don't go out much. I see people from time to time.

My father told me to get a new hobby but I no longer have any interests. Family time had been my primary interest. I really look forward to when children come over but then I sometimes have difficulties being a single parent. 

I spend a lot of time on TAM and tend to neglect other aspects of my life, including work. I tend to read things on how affairs work and how to fix them. I fantasize about how we could've fixed our marriage and become stronger. I fantasize sexually about my wife from time to time. I watch porn and it makes me sick now because I imagine my wife is doing all those things with OM. I regret having ever watched porn while I was with my wife. I should've been putting that sexual energy into her and telling her my needs, asking hers as well.

I'm finalizing the details of our divorce. It is equitable.

I'm basically deteriorating. Something has broke inside me. 

IC is fairly expensive so I am not doing that.

Started taking Lexapro a few days ago.

My get up and go has got up and went. 

I question everything - men, women, self, marriage, etc.

I look at smart and successful marriages and wonder how they did it.

I'm envious of people like you Conrad, who managed to make things work out. (Or even people that walked away feeling they are better off). I'd give everything I have for that.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> I'm basically deteriorating. Something has broke inside me.
> 
> IC is fairly expensive so I am not doing that.


Read those two sentences back to back.


----------



## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I don't know how you guys handle it so well and in stride.
> 
> I feel like I've come apart at the seams.
> 
> As spun pointed out, attacking OM is probably just another indication of that.


How do you think it is that we know these things?

You have to live it first to learn it


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Zap, he thinks "she" is the only person for him. Tailor made for him.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ReGroup said:


> Zap, he thinks "she" is the only person for him. Tailor made for him.


You know the feeling, don't you?


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Indeed, I do.

That was surely me a few months ago.

I'm chipping away at that idea and SS needs to do the same.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

SS,

I was every bit as screwed up as you are right now.

Once you can see through yourself, you will see through your ex too.

That's when moving on begins.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ReGroup said:


> Indeed, I do.
> 
> That was surely me a few months ago.
> 
> I'm chipping away at that idea and SS needs to do the same.


My nickname is the Big Chipper


----------



## zappy88200 (Dec 6, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> Zap, he thinks "she" is the only person for him. Tailor made for him.


Thank you ReGroup.

God Bless

Zappy


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

spun said:


> SS,
> 
> I was every bit as screwed up as you are right now.
> 
> ...


That's an interesting statement. So do you think there is something definitive about me and her and our relationship that I will actually have insight into? Because at the moment it just seems like a set of circumstances which came together to produce this mess. To me, we were on a clear journey together through life, but we had some frustrations and my wife sucked into something she wasn't planning on and couldn't extricate herself from. One of those textbook examples out of Not Just Friends or Surviving and Affair.

DD1 Trickle-truthed me and told me had sex twice with a random guy.
DD2 (a week later) Told me she'd been having a 6 month affair and had fallen in love. My life hasn't been the same since then.

Regarding therapy (Conrad thinks that is the key), I'd have to call the USA. Can anyone recommend a good telephone therapist? If so, please PM me.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> That's an interesting statement. So do you think there is something definitive about me and her and our relationship that I will actually have insight into? Because at the moment it just seems like a set of circumstances which came together to produce this mess. To me, we were on a clear journey together through life, but we had some frustrations and my wife sucked into something she wasn't planning on and couldn't extricate herself from. One of those textbook examples out of Not Just Friends or Surviving and Affair.
> 
> DD1 Trickle-truthed me and told me had sex twice with a random guy.
> DD2 (a week later) Told me she'd been having a 6 month affair and had fallen in love. My life hasn't been the same since then.
> ...


for men who are recovering from relationships with abusive women and the non-abusive family and friends who love them | Shrink4Men

She has quite a following.


----------



## SecretTears (Jul 18, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Keeping my head above water is about as much as I can do.
> 
> I stay away from alcohol but I'm not eating well. I'm having difficulty taking care of myself. I left the wet laundry in the washer for 2 days straight.
> 
> ...


I don't have much advice because I'm kind of in the same boat as you but hopefully it helps to know I understand what you are going through. I'm also not eating well (or much at all) and I just can't find the energy to do the hobbies I once had (with the exception of exercise, which I have stepped up to probably the point of obsession but it makes me so tired that at least I can fall asleep at night). 

One thing I am trying to do (some days are more successfully than others), as recommended by my therapist, is in a notebook to list 1 thing everyday that I did that I didn't have to do. It can be so simple as "I got dressed today instead of sitting in my pajamas on a Sunday" . It motivates me to at least do something every day and after a few days I realize that I can find the energy to achieve something and it is uplifting. 


I also question everything and I'm loosing faith in men and humans in general. Sad. 



staystrong said:


> IC is fairly expensive so I am not doing that.


I can't remember if I said it already in your thread but I am reading a book that helped me A LOT. It's called Getting past your breakup by Susan elliott and it is available on amazon kindle. The book says many of the things that my therapist says but it is only $10 or so. I recommend it to every one because I think it is a fantastic book and I swear I am not affiliated with the author in any way


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> for men who are recovering from relationships with abusive women and the non-abusive family and friends who love them | Shrink4Men
> 
> She has quite a following.



I contacted the Shrink4Men psych and she requires $160 an hour. That's out of my range, unfortunately.

My wife is not one of those crazy women described on that site. I would never have stayed with someone like that.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> I contacted the Shrink4Men psych and she requires $160 an hour. That's out of my range, unfortunately.
> 
> My wife is not one of those crazy women described on that site. I would never have stayed with someone like that.


I'd charge much less than that


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

SecretTears said:


> I don't have much advice because I'm kind of in the same boat as you but hopefully it helps to know I understand what you are going through. I'm also not eating well (or much at all) and I just can't find the energy to do the hobbies I once had (with the exception of exercise, which I have stepped up to probably the point of obsession but it makes me so tired that at least I can fall asleep at night).
> 
> One thing I am trying to do (some days are more successfully than others), as recommended by my therapist, is in a notebook to list 1 thing everyday that I did that I didn't have to do. It can be so simple as "I got dressed today instead of sitting in my pajamas on a Sunday" . It motivates me to at least do something every day and after a few days I realize that I can find the energy to achieve something and it is uplifting.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the post and for the reminder about that book.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I'd charge much less than that


Hehe  

And I'd pay you, too. 

But if part of the therapy is to convince me I'm co-dependent, I may go broke before I reach that point.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

I was in denial once. But I accepted my membership 18 hours ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Hehe
> 
> And I'd pay you, too.
> 
> But if part of the therapy is to convince me I'm co-dependent, I may go broke before I reach that point.


There are people who will testify that 18 months ago, I was in the same place you are.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> I was in denial once. But I accepted my membership 18 hours ago.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When you read De Mello?

I really don't think I'm co-dependent. I'm not a rescuer/fixer type who would live in torment with a toxic person. I'm just a guy who viewed marriage for the long haul, through thick and thin, and who cared about his wife and children. I think I have issues, but I don't think CD is one of them. Like Dr. Harley said, there are so many markers for CD, it's enough to make us all think we're CD. My wife does not have BPD or NPD, I don't think. She's not a crazy biatch though she was different while in the affair fog. Not unlike most people, though.

I just think I'm grieving. I lost something very important to me. My grandparents remained married, my parents remain married,.. I always expected I would, too. And I loved my wife even if we had our disagreements. Relationships are complicated, and they require a lot of attention and education to maintain.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> There are people who will testify that 18 months ago, I was in the same place you are.


Is the story in your thread?

But how can you be sure it applies to me?

Why do I feel like I am getting indoctrinated into a cult?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Is the story in your thread?
> 
> But how can you be sure it applies to me?
> 
> Why do I feel like I am getting indoctrinated into a cult?


What's your favorite Kool-Aid flavor?

It is ironic that you've just described how you're neglecting you because your entire focus is on her.

Then you insist you're not codependent.

If the label bothers you, don't accept it. BUT, realize that to recover you're going to need to get in touch with you.

*****************
co·de·pend·ent [koh-di-pen-duhnt]

adjective

1. of or pertaining to a relationship in which one person is *physically or psychologically addicted,* as to alcohol or gambling, and the other person is psychologically dependent on the first in an unhealthy way.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

I read the book a few months ago when Conrad suggested it to another person. 

Read it and understood certain components to the book; but it didn't sync in. I read links recommended by other people and nothing. Or thats what I thought - little tid bits applied, but I wasn't ready to accept them. But I remembered.

Conrad creates a thread last Monday and I read it - for some reason (don't ask me why) I began to understand a little better. 

Then I read HK's thread and it picked up momentum.

I meet up with my mother on that same day and I started pegging her questions about my childhood and so forth - I had never done that. I have always avoided intimate conversations with her. Why? I don't know.

Conrad asks me to read the book again.

I go to counseling yesterday and do more reflection. After counseling, I get on the train and I start reading... Then it ALL came together. The "WTF" moment I have been waiting for. Their is something there.

I don't know squat about Co-Dependency and Me - but I am eager to find out. 

Save yourself the trouble and embrace the possibility it may answer some of your questions.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> I read the book a few months ago when Conrad suggested it to another person.
> 
> Read it and understood certain components to the book; but it didn't sync in. I read links recommended by other people and nothing. Or thats what I thought - little tid bits applied, but I wasn't ready to accept them. But I remembered.
> 
> ...


Is it the Melody Beattie book?

Okay, I will re-embrace the possibility given your stories.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> What's your favorite Kool-Aid flavor?
> 
> It is ironic that you've just described how you're neglecting you because your entire focus is on her.
> 
> ...


But see that's my point. What was her addiction?

She did not drink, do drugs, gamble, have a life-consuming hobby, etc. The dynamics which changed were she became much more obsessed with becoming a singer and at the same time met OM. Prior to that, though, she had no addiction, if you could call those addictions.

That's why I don't think this applies to me. How can I be psychologically dependent on someone I am not in a relationship with anymore? I think it's more a matter that I can't deal with the separation. It was abrupt, painful and out of my control.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> That's why I don't think this applies to me. How can I be psychologically dependent on someone I am not in a relationship with anymore? ........I can't deal with the separation. It was abrupt, painful and out of my control.


Can't deal with being away from her and you're not "psychologically dependent?"


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

"the other person is psychologically dependent on the first in an unhealthy way".

A person who isn't co dependent would have sent off her PosW on her merry way and got on with their life in a healthy way.

Unlike Us! Let's try and understand WHY.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Okay then, WHY? Let's find out. Why can't I move on? 

It seems like the definition of codependency, though, includes an element of addiction on the part of the person you are dependent on. My wife does not have any addictions nor is she mentally ill.

I answered No to almost all of these CD quiz questions...

1. Do you keep quiet to avoid arguments?
2. Are you always worried about others’ opinions of you?
3. Have you ever lived with someone with an alcohol or drug problem?
4. Have you ever lived with someone who hits or belittles you?
5. Are the opinions of others more important than your own?
6. Do you have difficulty adjusting to changes at work or home?
7. Do you feel rejected when significant others spend time with friends?
8. Do you doubt your ability to be who you want to be?
9. Are you uncomfortable expressing your true feelings to others?
10. Have you ever felt inadequate?
11. Do you feel like a “bad person” when you make a mistake?
12. Do you have difficulty taking compliments or gifts?
13. Do you feel humiliation when your child or spouse makes a mistake?
14. Do you think people in your life would go downhill without your constant efforts?
15. Do you frequently wish someone could help you get things done?
16. Do you have difficulty talking to people in authority, such as the police or your boss?
17. Are you confused about who you are or where you are going with your life?
18. Do you have trouble saying “no” when asked for help?
19. Do you have trouble asking for help?
20. Do you have so many things going at once that you can’t do justice to any of them?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Seems you are trying to define youself by her behaviours even now SS..

Your codependancy is not reliant on her issues just yours. I'm in the same boat. Mrs.C is not N or othet match up. Doesnt change the fact I have codependant traits. Not every marker. But more than enough.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

How do you belittle your partner more than moving another man into his house?


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## rsersen (Jan 30, 2013)

> I think it's more a matter that I can't deal with the separation. It was abrupt, painful and out of my control.


I think I'd agree. I wonder if maybe we're not mistaking co-dependency with the normal stages of grief that we're going through as we mourn our lost spouses....a loss, that in most of our cases, is rather sudden and unexpected.

In the early stages of my separation, I thought I was CD as well. I brought it up during IC and my counselor thought about it for a couple minutes, but eventually said that he didn't think that applied to me or my situation. I guess it wouldn't hurt to read some of this material and revisit that, though.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I think with CD the label is scary.

I dont see myself as codependent most of my life. In the way I behaved the last couple years though I see enoigh traits to think its worth looking at.

It isnt right to feel the world is ending or you should kill yourself for one person leaving.

Forget the label, see which traits do fit and get to work on them.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

To me, codependency means giving away your power repeatedly, to untrustworthy or unreliable people. It's a pattern you repeat, based on your childhood experiences.

The healthy version is interdependency, which is what I believe I had with my wife. You always give some power away in a relationship, you must for it to thrive. She covertly ended the relationship which traumatized me. People say it takes a long time to get over this experience. To get over the person who broke your heart.



> A person who isn't co dependent would have sent off her PosW on her merry way and got on with their life in a healthy way.


That can't be the definition of codependency!


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> How do you belittle your partner more than moving another man into his house?


Okay, roll with that..

It is extremely disrespectful, but what does that translate into?

I know that she didn't feel comfortable about it. Neither of them did but they did it for their own practical and economic reasons. It's a twisted logic and I never would have done that to her (or the kids), and I completely agree it's bad form. Really bad form.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Forever grasping at straws.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

K.C. said:


> I think with CD the label is scary.
> 
> I dont see myself as codependent most of my life. In the way I behaved the last couple years though I see enoigh traits to think its worth looking at.
> 
> ...


It goes beyond the loss of her.

It's the loss of an intact family.

Of the shared vision together, the future, the dreams we had, the spiritual and romantic connection

It's the pain of betrayal, the shame

Being stranded in this country, away from my family

--

KC and Conrad - Yours had EA's is that correct?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> Forever grasping at straws.


I just want the truth.


----------



## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I just want the truth.


the truth is in the mirror


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

What Z said..

As for me SS. Nope. I had no affair EA or PA. Neither did she. She did think I was having an affair due to mistaking my depression for it. In my case though, while not perfect Mrs.C did not betray me or belittle me. I am at fault for my split but not becauseof infidelity but for putting her through two sh!t years while reusing to deal with Depression.

Regardless of anthing else all you can fix is your own issues. They are there you just need to face them.

If its not CD what could you have done better? Unless you are the first perfect husband in history?

Not saying its your fault you guys split but the only faults you can fix are your own.


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## zappy88200 (Dec 6, 2012)

SecretTears said:


> I also question everything and I'm loosing faith in men and humans in general. Sad.


True....I get the same feeling now.

Zappy


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Zappy,

What you and staystrong are describing are the type of feelings a son has for his mother.

I want you to think on that awhile.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Codependancy is all about emotional reliance rather than practical.

I've read your thread Zappy. Your situation is different but one thing is consistent. All the way through, your focus has been on her rather than you. Not checked in recently but I dont recall you coming up with one thing you have done.. It was all her.

That focus on them rather than yourself is a CD red flag. It took me a while to start seeing it in me but I have accepted it is there.

You guys need to start focussing inwards. You may just be surprised what you find. I know I was.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> Codependancy is all about emotional reliance rather than practical.
> 
> I've read your thread Zappy. Your situation is different but one thing is consistent. All the way through, your focus has been on her rather than you. Not checked in recently but I dont recall you coming up with one thing you have done.. It was all her.
> 
> ...


Damn.....


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I just want the truth.





zillard said:


> the truth is in the mirror


The truth is in what you said a couple days ago. You openly admitted to hanging on to delusions in hand, until you're ready to rid yourself of it, the truth will elude you.

Something easily in your control, but you're too scared to do so. Understandably.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Zappy,
> 
> What you and staystrong are describing are the type of feelings a son has for his mother.
> 
> I want you to think on that awhile.


Not sure where you are getting that from.

No one wants to be abandoned, that's true. But I don't feel as though my mother has left me, I feel as though my wife has left me. 

Maybe I made the mistake of thinking her love was not as conditional as it was.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> The truth is in what you said a couple days ago. You openly admitted to hanging on to delusions in hand, until you're ready to rid yourself of it, the truth will elude you.
> 
> Something easily in your control, but you're too scared to do so. Understandably.


I thought I had found something, not so sure now.


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I thought I had found something, not so sure now.


You're chipping away at things, which is great. Don't turn your back because you have to work through something to get beyond it.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

zappy88200 said:


> Brother KC - I am all alone in this country and she was the only one close to me. I can get off work at 5 30 if i want to but I normally leave by 7 b/c I don't have any one to go to.
> 
> We are not US citizens, we don't have green cards, we both are on working visa. But I really wanted my child to be a US citizen so she could grow at par with everybody else
> 
> ...



Zappy, yours is a very painful story. 

I'm also living in a foreign country so I now what it can feel like. You and your partner tend to rely on each other more than other partners would. In my case, she's from this country so I relied more on her; the reverse was true when she was in my country. I always considered it team work and support, though it does come with its own set of stressors.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I feel your pain Zappy. Please dont feel it is an attack
My LTR beforw Mrs.C we had a miscarriage. As much as it was unplanned... It hurt to know I would never hold my baby. Your case is harder still as she chose it rather than a miscarriage. I honestly get that.

What I am trying to say is I havent seen you attack what you may have contributed to her feeling that need.. As unforgivable as what she may have done is, what could you have done differently?

That last question is the only thing you have control of. It sucks to look at yourself and see the truth rather than what you thought but honestly what good things ever came easily?


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> You're chipping away at things, which is great. Don't turn your back because you have to work through something to get beyond it.


Here's where I need a counselor, I suspect. To assist me when I can't face something.

I did some more reading but I stopped seeing myself in what I was reading.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Here's where I need a counselor, I suspect. *To assist me when I can't face something.*
> 
> I did some more reading but I stopped seeing myself in what I was reading.


Ask yourself why you can't face whatever it is you're looking at. Typically the first answer that scares the sh!t out of you is where you wanna start chipping again.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

K.C. said:


> I feel your pain Zappy. Please dont feel it is an attack
> My LTR beforw Mrs.C we had a miscarriage. As much as it was unplanned... It hurt to know I would never hold mu baby. Your case is harder still as she chose it rather than a miscarriage. I honestly get that.
> 
> What I am trying to say is I havent seen you attack what you may have contributed to her feeling that need.. As unforgivable as what she may have done is, what could you have done differently?
> ...


KC, you asked the same of me earlier.

I can give you a solid list of things I could have done differently. Those things are general improvements and specific changes. But I'm not in MC and I don't get to test these things out. Like you said, it's only useful the next relationship. Maybe I need to go deeper, to really see through myself as someone said. Right now, all I see is a man that needs to be loved. I'm in deep withdrawal of love.


----------



## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> KC, you asked the same of me earlier.
> 
> I can give you a solid list of things I could have done differently. Those things are general improvements and specific changes. But I'm not in MC and I don't get to test these things out. Like you said, it's only useful the next relationship. Maybe I need to go deeper, to really see through myself as someone said. Right now, all *I see is a man that needs to be loved. I'm in deep withdrawal of love.*


If you really saw a man who needs to be loved, then you'd be loving yourself right now. You still seek external approval.


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## HappyHubby (Aug 16, 2012)

K.C. said:


> I feel your pain Zappy. Please dont feel it is an attack
> My LTR beforw Mrs.C we had a miscarriage. As much as it was unplanned... It hurt to know I would never hold mu baby. Your case is harder still as she chose it rather than a miscarriage. I honestly get that.
> 
> What I am trying to say is I havent seen you attack what you may have contributed to her feeling that need.. As unforgivable as what she may have done is, what could you have done differently?
> ...


About zappy's wife aborting a six month old baby in the belly. She should be charged for murder. 6 months old!! It's alive. It hAs a brain, a heart, it dreams, it sucks its thumb. Cruel, wicked, evil baby killer. I'm sorry for your pain. I despise what she has done and despise that she was allowed to willfully abort a baby that is 6 months into being. Can't it survive outside the womb at that point? What's the threshold? It's gotta be close
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

HappyHubby said:


> About zappy's wife aborting a six month old baby in the belly. She should be charged for murder. 6 months old!! It's alive. It hAs a brain, a heart, it dreams, it sucks its thumb. Cruel, wicked, evil baby killer. I'm sorry for your pain. I despise what she has done and despise that she was allowed to willfully abort a baby that is 6 months into being. Can't it survive outside the womb at that point? What's the threshold? It's gotta be close
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A topic which could be discussed in another thread on another sub forum no doubt.


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## HappyHubby (Aug 16, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> A topic which could be discussed in another thread on another sub forum no doubt.


Ok.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> If you really saw a man who needs to be loved, then you'd be loving yourself right now. You still seek external approval.


A man can't love himself the way a woman can love him. She complements him and makes his life more whole. For me, part of the big purpose of life is to be in a strong stable union with a woman. It took me a while in life to realize this is what I really needed. I'd spent enough time not in relationships to know I am happier in one (a good one) than not.

I don't love myself the way I used to love myself because... well, I don't know the exact reason why but it must have something to do with self-worth. And because I am brain-addled and worn out.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Re-lable "one-itis as CD what do you see?...

Got to say. I see two labels for one thing.
I get that feeling but you would need to happy without her, to be truely happy with her, other wise it's just papering over the cracks.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-I'm really digging your progress dude! Keep swinging.....i stand by the email......call anytime ($4.99 minute LOL joking!!!!)


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Oh and agree abortion is a seperate subject. The rights or wrongs of that dont help us fix each others issues

Guys we cannot change what they alraedy did. Just how we act in future.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> A man can't love himself the way a woman can love him. She complements him and makes his life more whole. For me, part of the big purpose of life is to be in a strong stable union with a woman. It took me a while in life to realize this is what I really needed. I'd spent enough time not in relationships to know I am happier in one (a good one) than not.
> 
> I don't love myself the way I used to love myself because... well, I don't know the exact reason why but it must have something to do with self-worth. And because I am brain-addled and worn out.


So much emphasis on love, like it's the end all be all of everything in the world. A man can love himself just as much as a woman can, it works the other way around. Actually, gender has nothing to do with it.

It should be something you want, not need. The need in that sentence right there cries codependency. Pretty much everything you just wrote jumps off the screen as codependent.

You spent lots of time without a relationship and you came to the realization that you'd be much happier in one? A healthy relationship will amplify your well being, but it is NOT your well being as a whole.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> SS-I'm really digging your progress dude! Keep swinging.....i stand by the email......call anytime ($4.99 minute LOL joking!!!!)


Are you sure we're reading the same thread? I don't think I'm getting very far Chuck!


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Re-lable "one-itis as CD what do you see?...
> 
> Got to say. I see two labels for one thing.
> I get that feeling but you would need to happy without her, to be truely happy with her, other wise it's just papering over the cracks.


I was using "one-itis" in a tongue and cheek manner, but I don't think oneitis and CD are the same thing. I think typically oneitis refers to when you have a severe unreciprocated crush. My case is different.. I was married to a woman, have children with her, and she left me abruptly for someone else. I'm crushed, heartbroken; I'm stuck on her.. because like so many other guys that wind up here, I don't understand how I could have been betrayed like this. And even when I start to understand the reasons why (by analyzing the past, our relationship stressors, understanding the dynamics of EAs and attraction), I don't feel any better as a result. In fact, I feel worse because I realize it's something that was, in some way, avoidable. It's not like she hated my guts and was planning on leaving.

So the challenge is to heal the past by focusing on the future. So far, I have not done well with that. I hope these meds will start to kick in soon.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> So much emphasis on love, like it's the end all be all of everything in the world. A man can love himself just as much as a woman can, it works the other way around. Actually, gender has nothing to do with it.
> 
> *It should be something you want, not need. The need in that sentence right there cries codependency.* Pretty much everything you just wrote jumps off the screen as codependent.
> 
> You spent lots of time without a relationship and you came to the realization that you'd be much happier in one? A healthy relationship will amplify your well being, but it is NOT your well being as a whole.


Love is very important to me. I trusted her with my love, and with the love of our children. I look around and I don't see other couples we know separating or cheating. She did it. She f'ed everything up. She was unable to communicate with me, or guard her boundaries or whatever, and now we are at this point. Agreed, I was naive because I had not been burned before. She had a good alibi for time spent away. She hid things well and left no traces. Secret email account. Burner phone. She was a good little cheater, I was a good little chump. 

What I wrote cries something, I'm just not sure it's CD. Fundamentally, I think it is regret. The pain of betrayal and a broken heart. Having to start over and not having the will to do it. Because so much was already in that other relationship. It's like climbing up to an upper management position only to be told one day you have to start over as an intern, your pension is gone, and please don't sit with your former colleagues at the lunch table.

Here, I took a quote from a random woman talking about codependency. To me, this is real codependency. When you are enmeshed in a relationship because your worth is determined by how much you are helping the other person, how much you think they need you to get on with their lives. That was never the dynamic I had with my wife. She was not sick with an addiction or whatever. Neither was I. It's not CD, it's something else. But whatever it is, I need to break through it. I look in the mirror and I don't recognize the person there anymore. Something has fundamentally changed; it's like I have a deep crack going from head to toe.

_Codependence is dishonesty, which comes back to fear, and pride. When we "take care" of others sometimes we are honestly giving and helpful, but sometimes we are really trying to boost our own self-esteem, thinking or hoping we are "better" than the people we are supposedly "helping". It can be a way of feeling superior, saying to yourself and showing others that you are better than the other person (that would be pride). But if someone actually does get better, and doesn't need us any more, then where will that leave us? So we wind up needing others to stay sick. So the "helper" actually ennables sickness, rather than seeking a healthy, reciprocal relationship. If they realize the truth they have to make a choice, to deny it or risk changing, losing the source of their self-esteem, and their sense of security (because they feel the "sick" person needs them, can't really get along without them).
This is where fear comes in: we can actually be afraid of a healthy relationship. So we stay in sick relationships, and if we actually start to want something different, we are afraid to be honest about what we want because then the other person might leave, or say no; and if they refuse to give us what we want then we have to give in; or, choose to give up our power and leave the security of that old familiar place._


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Part of it is also the sheer disrespect that comes with cheating, and how belittling it was for her to move OM in with our kids. 

Conrad was onto that, though I didn't quite catch what he was saying.

Am I simply too naive. Do I expect too much from others and myself? 

If she had the affair and ended it out of respect for us and our family, that's one thing. To have it and then leave again after a measley attempt at R is another thing. But when she came back that time I welcomed her with open arms. I was "proud" of her. I thought she had seen the light. I thought I had "won". I thought, "okay, not we are going to work on us." But where was my list of conditions and demands? Why did I let it be her choice? Where was my self-respect? I absolutely have no idea...

That's what I would like to explore within myself but I don't know how.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Are you sure we're reading the same thread? I don't think I'm getting very far Chuck!


You may not be getting very far with finding answers but at least your asking the questions now. You have progressed from the start of this thread SS, no doubt.

A lot of your self worth seems to come from being a good husband. As in, I am a good StaySrong because I am a good husband. You appear to want that external validation from a wife/partner to feel good about yourself.

When she did what she did, you lost a lot of your feeling of self worth as surely she wouldn't have done that to a good husband.. so I wasn't a good enough husband.. so I am not a good enough SS. 

You see incapable of feeling good about yourself without her there to validate that good feeling. Your emotional happiness has become totally dependant on her. This is where the CD label is coming from. 

Could your resistance to the idea of being CD (bearing in mind near the start you said if that is the definition I guess i am..) come from it being far from the real you that you see when you look inside, that walked the earth before Mrs.SS?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> How do you belittle your partner more than moving another man into his house?


Conrad, come back. Where did you want to take this?

It's sick, isn't it? But then the whole thing is so sick in a way? 

It turned me into an angry, bitter person. Do you realize I slapped my wife? (This was months ago.) I slapped the woman I loved. Total loss of control. I was at the bottom of my depression and I was so angry at her for having done this to me. I yelled at her and asked her if she enjoyed destroying men's lives. So much for high road. I would like to get back on the high road, though, if just for my own sake and the sake of my children.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

K.C. said:


> A lot of your self worth seems to come from being a good husband. As in, I am a good StaySrong because I am a good husband. You appear to want that external validation from a wife/partner to feel good about yourself.


Yes, that's very true. I enjoyed being a husband/father/family man. Those roles were important to me.

Yes, she invalidated me by leaving me. Now I ask myself all the questions like "Did I fail as a provider? Was I too demanding about my needs or being right? Did I show enough care and affection". And that's the thing - Without her validation, I have no idea how 'wrong' I was. It could be the cheater's rewriting or it could be legitimate. All I ever wanted from her after learning of the affair was a second chance for us. A real second chance. When I didn't get that, I descended into darkness.



> When she did what she did, you lost a lot of your feeling of self worth as surely she wouldn't have done that to a good husband.. so I wasn't a good enough husband.. so I am not a good enough SS.


Yes, you see it. That's exactly it.



> You see incapable of feeling good about yourself without her there to validate that good feeling. Your emotional happiness has become totally dependant on her. This is where the CD label is coming from.


It's more that she invalidated what I was in the past. As if she was saying "I tolerated YOU long enough, but I can't be MY SELF around you because YOU won't let me. And YOU are not able to lead this family as a Husband and a Lover." That was sort of the message I got at the end. But again, I don't know how much of that was justifications. Hence the schizophrenia on my part. I want to know that indeed I was a good husband and that she didn't cheat and leave because I am a sucky person. Or that I gave her a hard time and she felt she couldn't be her true self around me. I would hate it if I had stifled someone else that way, especially the person I love. I felt like she asserted herself enough, though. I don't know, this is all pretty pathetic sounding and it is focused too much on her and her needs. Hell, I had needs too. I just really miss the love we had because for 90% of the time it was fluid and easy. And now some other man has that. And I can't stand that. She was my woman and I was her man. We have kids together, for Pete's sake. Marriage takes work sometimes, it's not a cakewalk. I just feel she failed as a lifelong partner for cheating/leaving, but she makes me feel as though I did. As if I was 50% of the reason and OM was the other 50%.



> Could your resistance to the idea of being CD (bearing in mind near the start you said if that is the definition I guess i am..) come from it being far from the real you that you see when you look inside, that walked the earth before Mrs.SS?


I don't know. Again, when I read more about CD, it really seems to have to do with people who get value out of others needing them. I don't think trying to be a good husband and father is CD, I think it's a natural thing. At least if you were raised with those standards. Maybe I need a good religious woman like my mother who won't stray, LOL.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-Read your thread from 2 weeks ago, a week ago.....yeah you have come far. You have far to go but you are in right direction. Baby steps. Remember.....Michael Jordan was cut from his high school basketball team. Willie Mays appeared destined for the minors after 1951. Johnny Unitas (sp) was cut by the Steelers. Things start out different sometimes. Not how you start the race.....how you finish.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I understand where you are, SS. It's a difficult journey.

What I tell myself every morning is that I am stronger today than yesterday (sometimes that's even true). 

*Believe in yourself.* Don't define yourself by what she thinks.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

I fell deeply in love with my wife 18 years ago. Far more than just physical attraction. Maybe some kind of "chemical" bond. Felt that way.

She was my best friend.

We had sex hundreds of times.

We had a child together. Held her between us right after she was born.

We worked hard and bought a home.

We faced challenges and solved problems together.

We were each others' advocate, supported each other through turbulent times.

So, all this talk about CD (I and think SS has come up with the best explanation of what CD actually is) over complicates all this.

I lost my mind and fell apart 10 months ago because I lost all the things I listed above in 5 minutes. My reaction was a completely normal one considering the magnitude of it.

Now, in large part due to the wisdom of the people on TAM, I am well on the road to healing. 

SS has lost his wife, best friend, lover, home and family. How the h*ll else should he react? He's making slow but steady progress, I give him credit.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Some of us don't fluff pillows and give pats on the head, but that doesn't mean our responses lack empathy and compassion.

There is no kicking while he is down, but when you get up you still need that boot in the rear to keep walking.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

MC-VERY well written. Recently lost mine. Laid framework to resolve issues. Were not utilized. Therefore D was final. I realized there is an awesome life out there without her. I am enjoying it. I run 100 mph on I-75 blasting Motley Crue....yeah for four minutes it is 1987 all over again. Small steps. Once you are in your 40's it better be small steps.....with knee pain....back pain.....well you get the picture


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

ray:


maincourse99 said:


> I fell deeply in love with my wife 18 years ago. Far more than just physical attraction. Maybe some kind of "chemical" bond. Felt that way.
> 
> She was my best friend.
> 
> ...


ray: Thank you

Do you have specific advice? I admit, I could be doing more to focus on myself, I just don't feel like doing those things. I realize I need some ass kicking to get me up and out...


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> Some of us don't fluff pillows and give pats on the head, but that doesn't mean our responses lack empathy and compassion.
> 
> There is no kicking while he is down, but when you get up you still need that boot in the rear to keep walking.


And I'm grateful for it. I just feel misdiagnosed. Which makes me feel even more confus-ed...


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



staystrong said:


> And I'm grateful for it. I just feel misdiagnosed. Which makes me feel even more confus-ed...


I for one make no attempts to diagnose anyone. I point out what I see.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

zillard said:


> "Codependency, by definition, means making the relationship more important to you than you are to yourself. It's kind of a weird phrase, and it doesn't sound like it means a one-sided relationship. But that's what it is. It means you're trying to make the relationship work with someone else who's not."





staystrong said:


> It that's the definition, then fine I'm codependent. If the shoe fits, wear it.


You lost everything you held dear. You were close to ending your life. Because the things you lost were more important to you than your life. 

If you act co-dependently after a bomb is dropped, it doesn't mean you have a condition to feel shame about. It's completely understandable. But there is a term for it. It doesn't have to be a diagnosis. And it can be overcome.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

IMO, and my only qualification is having gone through this, the way most BS act after Dday is due to a very powerful desire to save their marriage/family. Unfortunately, most of us beg, plead and reason and try to compete with the AP, the exact opposite of what we should do.

Co-dependence? How about just calling it having your heart broken. Betrayal and loss. It just f'ing hurts. Simple. 

But, eventually time passes, if you work at detaching, the 180, as hard as it is at first you begin to heal. I tell myself everyday that the clock can't be turned back, I have no control over her, and obviously she's a person with serious problems that she doesn't want to face. I can find a better woman.

And when I regress and start rehashing things in my mind and try to come up with options other than D and detaching, I come to the same conclusion: THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS!


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Codependency is often formed during childhood and manifests itself in the transition to adulthood.

A broken marriage or relationship did not simply sprout a sudden urge to be dependent on someone or something. Although I'm sure it can cause that problem as well.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Broken heart + betrayal + loss

It absolutely hurts! Like hell and then some!

Hurts enough to want to end your life = relationship is more important than you. 

That fits the definition. It is what it is.

FYI - I'm reading a book on overcoming codependency. It's pretty much the 180.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

All SS wanted was relief from the intense pain. The thought of escaping through suicide is bound to pop into your mind. 

I'm going to do some more reading on co-dependency, it's an interesting subject.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

zillard said:


> Broken heart + betrayal + loss
> 
> It absolutely hurts! Like hell and then some!
> 
> ...


Any one of us here would put their life on the line for our children. And I'm guessing any one of us here would have died for their wives, because we loved them that much, we loved them enough so that they could live instead of us and also continue to mother our children. Is that co-dependency or is it simply love? A bond that strong, once broken through betrayal, has a deep and long-lasting impact. The ties that bind are biological, spiritual, profound.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

die to protect and save my child or wife's life? sure. 

suicide after or during divorce would accomplish the opposite.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

zillard said:


> die to protect and save my child or wife's life? sure.
> 
> suicide after or during divorce would accomplish the opposite.


Suicidal ideation is definitely not a rational thought process.

I was just trying to illustrate the power of the bond. Some of us simply feel soul f*cked.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Why is the feeling so strong you'd want to die though? Why is the despair so deep? Why was the bond so powerful?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I get what you are saying SS about dying for them. But your only just realising you can live for the kids. Not so long ago the loss of her had you in a very dark place. That wouldnt have been dying for anyone other than yourself. You emotional reliance on her was so strong that you considered leaving your kids fatherless. That isnt a healthy connection.

If we forget labels. That is quite a scary place to be. If you had no kids would webe able to have this talk at all? We want you to find some happiness internally. I dont mean life is fantastic happiness but just some amount of inner piece and kindness towards yourself. Surely you had that before her so what about the relationship made that change?

Why cant you be happy without her?

This is why CD comes up but the important thing is to find out why you need her to be happy in yourself.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> IMO, and my only qualification is having gone through this, the way most BS act after Dday is due to a very powerful desire to save their marriage/family. Unfortunately, most of us beg, plead and reason and try to compete with the AP, the exact opposite of what we should do.
> 
> Co-dependence? How about just calling it having your heart broken. Betrayal and loss. It just f'ing hurts. Simple.
> 
> ...




Well Put!


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

I would step in front of a bullet without question for someone I loved. Be it my immediate family, extended family, friends or my children.

Why? Because I surround myself with those who I feel share my same values in life and I take comfort in knowing things will be okay.

But to take my own life because someone wants nothing to do with me? No. Never.

I walked that path a year ago, never again. I'm far too important for that.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

zillard said:


> Why is the feeling so strong you'd want to die though? Why is the despair so deep? Why was the bond so powerful?


It just is.

It's the way we're built as humans. We get close to one another.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> I would step in front of a bullet without question for someone I loved. Be it my immediate family, extended family, friends or my children.
> 
> Why? Because I surround myself with those who I feel share my same values in life and I take comfort in knowing things will be okay.
> 
> ...


So am I. All of us here are.

You got closer than I did and pulled back. We all know the sense of despair and where it stems from.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Are you sure about that? Mine came from a severe lack of self worth.

What about you?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

An epic sense of loss. 

Mixed with deep feelings of failure, regret, hopelessness and shame.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



staystrong said:


> An epic sense of loss.
> 
> Mixed with deep feelings of failure, regret, hopelessness and shame.


So a lack of self worth.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> It just is.
> 
> It's the way we're built as humans. We get close to one another.


I loved my wife deeply and intensely. I did not consider suicide.

Why the difference? I am human too.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Human-Human League 1986 youtube

Ain't no pink twat worth scratching your a$$ over, much less suicide

take it from someone who knows.......15 or 55 no difference


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> So a lack of self worth.


The sense of loss was the greater. Had nothing to do with self-worth.

The other things, yes they do.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

zillard said:


> I loved my wife deeply and intensely. I did not consider suicide.
> 
> Why the difference? I am human too.



I don't know. I must be more co-dependent than you. 

Or maybe I experienced more trauma due to personal and situational factors (being isolated in another country, for example).

I'm not the only one. Daddio and others went even further down that dark path. The thought must have crossed your mind at one point, no?


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I don't know. I must be more co-dependent than you.
> 
> Or maybe I experienced more trauma due to personal and situational factors (being isolated in another country, for example).
> 
> I'm not the only one. Daddio and others went even further down that dark path. The thought must have crossed your mind at one point, no?


One time when I was a drugged out teen. Since then... no, it hasn't.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



zillard said:


> One time when I was a drugged out teen. Since then... no, it hasn't.


One time trip was all I needed.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I was just reminded of a time a few weeks after it was clear my wife was leaving, she said did she need to be sure OM was the man of her life to leave. I said he damn well better be for her to do this to her family. She then said would she have to accept him for his flaws? I said, yes she probably would.

Basically, what the HELL was I thinking?

Had I just given up at that point? After so much effort into getting her to stay? I honestly have no idea - in hindsight it's almost as if I was pushing her to him. Why was I even talking to her about it? At that point, she was not considering staying married anymore, but still. Sometimes I really think I must be the stupidest man alive. Do you see why I have trouble moving on?


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Its because you are still living in the past. Going over every little detail, conversation to see where you could have went left instead of going right. YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE PAST and you will never have a future if you keep living there. I've don't it for 6 months and still have those fleeting thought "if I would have..."
You're not stupid, you did what you thought was best at the time. I am co-dependent like you are, its something hard to come to grips with. Its time to start living your life for you and your children, she is gone and you can't change that. It doesn't sound like you are doing a very good job with the 180s, you have to at least try. 
You don't have to give up hope, I of all people would never tell anyone to give up but she will not come back to a damaged man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Do I see why you have trouble moving on? No, not at all... I'm pulling everything I say out of the wind and hoping it sticks.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

We all have trouble moving on. The idea is to consiously force yourself to. "Fake it til you make it"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



familyfirst09 said:


> We all have trouble moving on. The idea is to consiously force yourself to. "Fake it til you make it"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fake it to make it should be applied to situations, such as running into your ex or anyone that may question you. Having to do things you don't want to but with a smile on your face.

Faking it to yourself is accepting the delusion.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> Fake it to make it should be applied to situations, such as running into your ex or anyone that may question you. Having to do things you don't want to but with a smile on your face.
> 
> Faking it to yourself is accepting the delusion.


Agreed. Those are the moments when you are alone, or on TAM when you break down, vent, scream, let it all out. Faking it til you make it when presented with exes and POSOP will enable you to get stronger and also to be proud of yourself on how you handled yourself. Eventually it will become real. I personally am still waiting for it to be real, lol, but know that it will. Mastering the art of "meh" takes time, just like everything else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Mastering the art of "Meh"? What about the art of indifference?


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Lol, same thing 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

familyfirst09 said:


> Its because you are still living in the past. Going over every little detail, conversation to see where you could have went left instead of going right. YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE PAST and you will never have a future if you keep living there. I've don't it for 6 months and still have those fleeting thought "if I would have..."
> You're not stupid, you did what you thought was best at the time. I am co-dependent like you are, its something hard to come to grips with. Its time to start living your life for you and your children, she is gone and you can't change that. It doesn't sound like you are doing a very good job with the 180s, you have to at least try.
> You don't have to give up hope, I of all people would never tell anyone to give up but she will not come back to a damaged man.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You guys and the others on TAM are the only ones who understand the difficulty of our situations. Familyfirst, I like your moniker. I've heard people give the order of self, spouse, children in terms of descending importance, and I believe that but my planning and decisions were most often with the best interests of the family in mind.

I can fake it when I need to now, especially around STBXW. But as Daddio said, you can't fake it to yourself.

So I repeat to myself what others tell me: "You can only change yourself, and you have to focus on the future." 

I thought about that today. 

I finally left the house for the first time in three days. I went to the mall to get my computer repaired. I have difficulty with all the basic transactions. I speak this country's language okay but not nearly at the level I need for quick exchanges. And *nowhere* near the level I would need for hanging out at house parties, flirting with women, expressing my self, etc. This is part of my hopelessness and my deep despair. Yes, I have an abandonment issue - I've been abandoned. It's not because of the relationship I had with my mother or anything like that. It's because I have been dumped in a foreign land. Most of you are probably living in the neighborhoods you've lived in for years, around the corner from friends and family. Or at least you have a pretty good network of coworkers and acquaintances. And any of you could walk into the local pub, gym or cafe and strike up a conversation. I can't. I have none of these things. It's part of the reason why you see me cry and wail so much.

She broke up with me in this country and we'd been living here less than a year and a half. *WHO DOES THAT?* She has - and I don't mean to sound hyperbolic - in a way ruined my life. Yes, she really has. Because our kids are here. I will never be able to form the life here that she can (unless I remarry someone from this country, and even then...). She was bilingual, but most in this country are not. Again, I wasn't codependent, I was DEPENDENT. On her, as an anchor in this country. She claims she didn't even think of this consequence during the affair. She obviously wasn't thinking of me at all - she even had sex with OM in our home once during the affair. She would've done it more I'm sure if I had not worked at home. That's minor compared to the abandonment but it shows the utter disrespect. 

Dr. Harley says he thinks infidelity in a legal relationship such as marriage should be illegal, because of the devastating pain it causes. I tend to agree.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Strong,

Focus is still on her.


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## mysteri (Feb 23, 2013)

Hey SS, I'm with you on the feelings, my beloved husband of 24 years left me for his high school sweetheart, and I would give my left nut (if I had one) for him to come back to me. He's not coming back...ever....and I have made a career of punishing myself for over 4 years now. I cry still at the songs we loved, the places we went, the pictures I have, and I always think I'm never going to be loved again. He was my loving husband for 24 years and I never thought we would be anything other than "together". We never had any kids of our own, but I helped him raise his daughter. Now the only family I have ever had for over half my life is all gone...poof....gone. My heart is broken and I have been lonely and lost without my best friend. But somehow, I know that this too shall pass. I have planned out my demise many times, but never acted on any of it. I am holding on for dear life but I won't give up. Please don't give up....please? Do it for yourself, live for yourself first, all the rest will fall into place. That's the thread I hang on to for dear life almost everyday......


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## mysteri (Feb 23, 2013)

Also SS, if you want her back, you have to become happy again and when she see's that you are thriving without her, it's weird, but she may have a new interest in you, not to get your hopes up or anything like that, but you never know.....


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Strong,
> 
> Focus is still on her.


I know. Just venting this time; it's background to my sob story.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

mysteri said:


> Hey SS, I'm with you on the feelings, my beloved husband of 24 years left me for his high school sweetheart, and I would give my left nut (if I had one) for him to come back to me. He's not coming back...ever....and I have made a career of punishing myself for over 4 years now. I cry still at the songs we loved, the places we went, the pictures I have, and I always think I'm never going to be loved again. He was my loving husband for 24 years and I never thought we would be anything other than "together". We never had any kids of our own, but I helped him raise his daughter. Now the only family I have ever had for over half my life is all gone...poof....gone. My heart is broken and I have been lonely and lost without my best friend. But somehow, I know that this too shall pass. I have planned out my demise many times, but never acted on any of it. I am holding on for dear life but I won't give up. Please don't give up....please? Do it for yourself, live for yourself first, all the rest will fall into place. That's the thread I hang on to for dear life almost everyday......


Don't ever give up. I won't and neither should you. I find that fighting the feeling of giving up empowers me. It gives me strength. If I had given up two weeks ago when I felt I was being swallowed into darkness, I wouldn't have had the great day I had with my daughters today. And even if behind my genuine smiles and laughter I continue to grieve over our broken family - well that is just the way it is for now.

I'm just going to try and be happy with or without her. She disrespected me too much for me to consider taking her back without a real demonstration of remorse on her part. Let me remind you she f*cked him in our home during the affair. And at his home. People like this, who can humiliate their spouses like that, they don't deserve our understanding.


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## mysteri (Feb 23, 2013)

Dear SS, we didn't have any infidelity, he hooked up with her shortly after he walked out on me, so I don't know how painful it must have been for you to deal with knowing that they screwed in your house. That would suck. My problem is I can't let go because he is a wonderful man. He loved me unconditionally and I guess we became complacent and didn't see the tsunami coming. We both tipped over on alcohol and everything just fell completely apart. We lost everything. Our house, my job, his vehicle, everything. But the grief is unbearable because he wont even talk to me at all because she is jealous of me because she is ten years older than me. She is beautiful and I know he held a torch for her since high school. I just miss my best friend. He was with me for half of my life and without him, I don't know who I am. Trying to forget someone you love is like trying to remember someone you've never met. I will hang in there because I have a soul mate who loves me, she is my identical twin sister and I am so lucky to have her. I'll be okay, I know you will too. Forgiveness is the key I think. We are all humans just trying to survive, it's not easy, but I want to thrive, not just survive. I want to be happy but I think I need professional help. It would be easier if he were a total jerk to me, but he wasn't. We never fought, we were the envy of all of our friends and his family...I miss the idea of "us" I really do miss him...that's the hardest part.....


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Mysteri, the pain is unbearable. We all know it. Those who love deep hurt the most.

I don't want to add to your pain but "he hooked up with her shortly after he walked out on me" screams to me that he had already been seeing her behind your back. I say this because I think you need to be a little more angry at this man, regardless of whether he was cheating on you or not.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

staystrong...I'm stopping by to give you a big bear (((hug)))....


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

mysteri said:


> He loved me unconditionally QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Did he?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> staystrong...I'm stopping by to give you a big bear (((hug)))....


Thanks Stella! Right back at ya


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Of people following this thread, which of you have WS's who are now living with OM/OW? Just curious.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Of people following this thread, which of you have WS's who are now living with OM/OW? Just curious.


Not I.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Not yes, SS, but probably just a matter of time.


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## lostLove77 (Jan 25, 2013)

I'm not good at abbreviations. What is WS? I think I have one but not sure. She's not living with anyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

lostLove77 said:


> I'm not good at abbreviations. What is WS? I think I have one but not sure. She's not living with anyone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


WS = wayward spouse

So that's a "No" as well. Thanks for responding


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> Not yes, SS, but probably just a matter of time.


Ugh, I'm praying that Brown Chiclet Teeth does not become a part of your D's life.


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

My brothers' wife had an 'exit affair', she met someone & left my brother after maybe a week of the affair (not sure of exactly how long the affair went on, but not long). She has been with that new partner for 1.5 years now and recently moved in with him.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

The reason I ask this question is because sometimes I feel like I am the only one. 

You guys, Conrad, Happy, GutPunch, Zillard, ReGroup, Soca, Voltaire, K.C., rsersen (I think) , Zappy, Chuck, Pbartender, many others.. They're either past this, in limbo or headed to D with maybe an OM waiting in the wings. I went from DDay to Limbo to False R to her leaving in the span of 5 weeks. It's just brutal. 

I guess I want to know if someone has shared this particular experience. Lately I've been wondering if it's also a power/revenge trip on her part, and what was the cause of it. I don't want this to repeat in a future relationship.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

greenfern said:


> My brothers' wife had an 'exit affair', she met someone & left my brother after maybe a week of the affair (not sure of exactly how long the affair went on, but not long). She has been with that new partner for 1.5 years now and recently moved in with him.


She had her own place before moving in with him? Were there kids involved?

How'd he make sense of it all? Did he deal with a lot of abandonment stuff? That's kind of where I'm at.

I don't even know whether this was an exit affair - she claims she wasn't looking for an out, it's just that OM arrived on the scene and an EA became a PA and then it was "lurrrrve". I have to make jokes about it, otherwise I cry.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Divorce update: we're finalizing the details on the no-fault divorce. Since I crashed the party on Valentine's Day, STBXW has given herself a week deadline to complete this with me or otherwise she wants to go to non-cooperative divorce. I think she is bluffing, because we are already 90% in agreement at this point. Deadline ends tonight but I am still reviewing the docs. She needs to take a chill pill.


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

staystrong said:


> She had her own place before moving in with him? Were there kids involved?
> 
> How'd he make sense of it all? Did he deal with a lot of abandonment stuff? That's kind of where I'm at.
> 
> I don't even know whether this was an exit affair - she claims she wasn't looking for an out, it's just that OM arrived on the scene and an EA became a PA and then it was "lurrrrve". I have to make jokes about it, otherwise I cry.


I don't know all the details, brother doesn't talk about it (think a HUGE 180 lasting for 2 years). Two kids, I think they were 4 & 6 at the time of the separation. My SIL was maybe not so happy for a while, but from the outside appeared to meet someone and leave immediately - so that's why I guess I called it an exit affair. She got her own place for a couple years then the OM moved in (they were together that entire time but I think were trying to 'legitimize' the relationship?).


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Alright, SS, out with it, what country in Europe are you stranded in? Me, HappYMan, Conrad, soca and GP and I are coming over to kick OM's azz again, and then take you out on the town. Tell me you're not in a country where grown men wear Capri pants and clogs?


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

Oh and btw, my brother is now seeing a new girl (younger, super nice) and is quite happy. Still does 180 with the x though even with swapping kids (50/50 custody).


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## lostLove77 (Jan 25, 2013)

Sorry strong. I know it's not what you had been hoping for originally. At least it's a conclusion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> The reason I ask this question is because sometimes I feel like I am the only one.
> 
> You guys, GutPunch, Zillard, ReGroup, Voltaire, K.C., rsersen (I think) , Zappy, Chuck, Pbartender, many others.. They're either past this, in limbo or headed to D with maybe an OM waiting in the wings. *I went from DDay to Limbo to False R to her leaving in the span of 5 weeks. It's just brutal. *
> 
> I guess I want to know if someone has shared this particular experience. Lately I've been wondering if it's also a power/revenge trip on her part, and what was the cause of it. I don't want this to repeat in a future relationship.


staystrong, you actually aren't the only one to experience that, as I experienced the exact same thing but it wasn't 5 weeks. It was 4.

You are not the first to experience any of this and I give you full credit for trying to plug away. But for your own good you really must stop casting 20 different fishing lines and hoping to snag the one fish that holds the easy button fixes and answers.

It doesn't exist, there are no external solutions, only internal and it's that basic fact that will never change. Regardless of how many times you try to rearrange the same pieces to gain different results. It's the definition of insanity.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> Alright, SS, out with it, what country in Europe are you stranded in? Me, HappYMan, Conrad, soca and GP and I are coming over to kick OM's azz again, and then take you out on the town. Tell me you're not in a country where grown men wear Capri pants and clogs?


Haha, c'mon over!

This country is known for its wine and cheese, and apparently its tarts.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

greenfern said:


> Oh and btw, my brother is now seeing a new girl (younger, super nice) and is quite happy. Still does 180 with the x though even with swapping kids (50/50 custody).


Good for him. A happy ending.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

lostLove77 said:


> Sorry strong. I know it's not what you had been hoping for originally. At least it's a conclusion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you LostLove


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## rsersen (Jan 30, 2013)

staystrong said:


> The reason I ask this question is because sometimes I feel like I am the only one.
> 
> You guys, GutPunch, Zillard, ReGroup, Voltaire, K.C., rsersen (I think) , Zappy, Chuck, Pbartender, many others.. They're either past this, in limbo or headed to D with maybe an OM waiting in the wings. I went from DDay to Limbo to False R to her leaving in the span of 5 weeks. It's just brutal.
> 
> I guess I want to know if someone has shared this particular experience. Lately I've been wondering if it's also a power/revenge trip on her part, and what was the cause of it. I don't want this to repeat in a future relationship.


I don't think I ever had the false R, but everything else matches up. She was having an EA/PA with OM1, on d-day she left, saying she just needed space and time to think. Dropped the D bomb a week later. Exit affair, I suppose, and it flamed out shortly thereafter.

Now she has a new rebound boyfriend, been about a month now. It's funny, despite the fact that she's now chosen two separate men over me, I still hold onto this hope that she'll snap out of it. Foolish. I think the day will still come when she regrets this, but it won't be any time soon. So I'm coming to grips with the fact that I have to let it go, and move on.

They don't live together - she's about to move into a new apartment with a female room mate next week. She's been staying at her mother's in the meantime. But from what I hear, she's been crashing at his place most nights anyway, and once she's in her new place, I'm sure they'll take turns spending the night. So they don't live together, but they might as well.

You're not alone.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> staystrong, you actually aren't the only one to experience that, as I experienced the exact same thing but it wasn't 5 weeks. It was 4.
> 
> You are not the first to experience any of this and I give you full credit for trying to plug away. But for your own good you really must stop casting 20 different fishing lines and hoping to snag the one fish that holds the easy button fixes and answers.
> 
> It doesn't exist, there are no external solutions, only internal and it's that basic fact that will never change. Regardless of how many times you try to rearrange the same pieces to gain different results. It's the definition of insanity.


I'm not looking for easy answers. I guess I was wondering where the others are who are like me. I feel like a subgroup of a subgroup. There are some issues here that I was hoping to speak with others about who are in the same boat as I am. When WS leaves you for OM and moves in with him right away, and shortly after the kids are there too, it presents a whole host of issues. I'm not even comfortable talking about all of them on here. 

Found this today: S.W.I.R.L - The Five Stages of Abandonment - Susan Anderson Yeah, that's pretty much it. I think I'm at stage 4. 

Watched DeMello's Awake talk on YouTube today.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

rsersen said:


> I don't think I ever had the false R, but everything else matches up. She was having an EA/PA with OM1, on d-day she left, saying she just needed space and time to think. Dropped the D bomb a week later. Exit affair, I suppose, and it flamed out shortly thereafter.
> 
> Now she has a new rebound boyfriend, been about a month now. It's funny, despite the fact that she's now chosen two separate men over me, I still hold onto this hope that she'll snap out of it. Foolish. I think the day will still come when she regrets this, but it won't be any time soon. So I'm coming to grips with the fact that I have to let it go, and move on.
> 
> ...


Thanks Rsersen.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I'm not looking for easy answers. I guess I was wondering where the others are who are like me. I feel like a subgroup of a subgroup. There are some issues here that I was hoping to speak with others about who are in the same boat as I am. When WS leaves you for OM and moves in with him right away, and shortly after the kids are there too, it presents a whole host of issues. I'm not even comfortable talking about all of them on here.
> 
> Found this today: S.W.I.R.L - The Five Stages of Abandonment - Susan Anderson Yeah, that's pretty much it. I think I'm at stage 4.
> 
> Watched DeMello's Awake talk on YouTube today.


Okay, I admit I sound defensive here. I'm just going through the divorce papers and seeing the words Mrs. StayStrong hurt. She's keeping my name for professional reasons. This I'm actually indifferent to.

First thought of the day: I should never have left the USA. I should never have left a secure job to start a new business. To correct this I will make financial security an important goal in life again.

Second thought of the day: People who want to be with you and really "have your back" don't abandon you without having exhausted every avenue to try and stay together.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Mine is living with the POSOM. But looks like not much longer. My daughter is hinting that a split might be imminent. That would make it six months them living together.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

How do you feel about it?


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

They deserve to suffer. She is being nicer than usual, so I'm preparing for her to launch plan B, which is an attempt to reconcile. I'm not interested.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I'm not looking for easy answers. I guess I was wondering where the others are who are like me. *I feel like a subgroup of a subgroup*. There are some issues here that I was hoping to speak with others about who are in the same boat as I am. *When WS leaves you for OM and moves in with him right away, and shortly after the kids are there too, it presents a whole host of issues*. I'm not even comfortable talking about all of them on here.
> 
> Found this today: S.W.I.R.L - The Five Stages of Abandonment - Susan Anderson Yeah, that's pretty much it. *I think I'm at stage 4*.
> 
> Watched DeMello's Awake talk on YouTube today.


You feel like a subgroup of a subgroup? A fancy way of saying you feel like a Victim? I have no doubt that it would be very hard to know that your stbxw is now living with posOM and has him around your kids. I personally have not experienced that, I do believe she left me for someone else and through the avenue of an EA but at the same time I do not have concrete evidence. Did I do some digging the first ONE or TWO months? Yes.

The thing you hopefully will realize soon is that there is only so much that is in your control and everything else, you have to drop. Just like unchaining shackles around your wrists, when that steel hits the ground and you don't have to look down for validation of such, it's freeing. You can feel them no longer where they once were, why keep looking?

I also call bullsh!t on you being at "Stage 4" if you want to base things on that modeling, you are no longer allowed to be in "Stage 4", you took that part out on posOM all by yourself. Stop making excuses and start stepping onward.





staystrong said:


> Okay, *I admit I sound defensive here*. I'm just going through the divorce papers and seeing the words Mrs. StayStrong hurt. She's keeping my name for professional reasons. *This I'm actually indifferent to*.
> 
> First thought of the day: I should never have left the USA. I should never have left a secure job to start a new business. To correct this I will make financial security an important goal in life again.
> 
> Second thought of the day: People who want to be with you and really "have your back" don't abandon you without having exhausted every avenue to try and stay together.


You sounded defensive in your eyes? I'm curious to know how you came to this conclusion as it didn't seem like that at all, then again I'm not behind that keyboard with the blood settling just under the skin.

I would like to challenge your thought on being indifferent to the lack of her taking back the maiden name. This is a 'title' to which you have connection to and will be noticeably attaching her to you in a sense still. Now, is this actual indifference or a feeling of 'relief' because she will always be 'connected' to you in some fashion?

In regards to your first thoughts of the day, they should have been about what you wanted to do, not about the past. You're setting yourself up for failure in doing so, dredging over which fork in the road you should have taken. The thing is, you could have taken any number of different approaches during those times and still have ended up exactly right here, mauling over the same things but just worded differently. Make sense?

Your second thought of the day, you're completely right about that. Anyone who wants to be with you would be with you and if they don't want to be they would leave. Although, not everyone needs to exhaust every avenue to know when enough is enough. That's called having self worth and the awareness to know what is and isn't worth putting themselves through.

Which makes the entire second thought of the day somewhat baffling as you clearly answer the majority of your own issues with that observation. But still, you refuse to actually apply it to yourself so you can move on. For someone who lacks so much self worth, it's puzzling to see you continue to make yourself out to be the exception to all the general rules of thumb.

Keep on keeping on staystrong, you'll get this.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Okay, I deleted my responses because I don't want to focus energy on my plight. I want to discuss things I can do which are productive.

I think I will start reading some of the books people have suggested.

Conrad, if you are out there I sent you a PM.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

You will still need to focus on your plight, just let it out, vent, b!tch, whatever works. But you also need to focus on being productive and moving forward so good for you to realize this. Sooooo much better than those damn suicidal thoughts you were having. I'd call you a dumb [email protected]@ for that but I won't 

So catch me up, what country are you in? What country are you from! What language barriers do you have? What did you do for the year and a half you've already been there? Why is it so different now just because your W is not with you? Is there any social groups in your area?

And no, not all of us are in neighborhoods we've been in for years and have lots of friends and acquaintennces. I know I'm not and don't. STBX moved us to the freakin boonies 5 years ago. I know no one here and have no neighbors and am quite a distance from from friends and family. I also don't have a lot of friends because I had toxic friends that were part of my problem so they are gone from my life as well. 

"Co-dependant No more" is a really good book for folks like us. Not sure if anyone recommended this or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SecretTears (Jul 18, 2010)

familyfirst09 said:


> So catch me up, what country are you in? What country are you from! What language barriers do you have? What did you do for the year and a half you've already been there? Why is it so different now just because your W is not with you? Is there any social groups in your area?
> 
> And no, not all of us are in neighborhoods we've been in for years and have lots of friends and acquaintennces. I know I'm not and don't. STBX moved us to the freakin boonies 5 years ago. I know no one here and have no neighbors and am quite a distance from from friends and family. I also don't have a lot of friends because I had toxic friends that were part of my problem so they are gone from my life as well.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm also in that situation. I moved 2000+ miles away from my home, family and friends. Went from living downtown in a big urban city to the middle of absolutely no where where unfortunately the fact that we all speak English seems to be the only commonality (and even then I can't always understand what people are saying to me).

I often think that if we hadn't moved here life would be better, if we hadn't moved we would still be together etc... but deep down I know that's BS. 

You can torture yourself with the what if's and should've would've until the cows come home and a) you know torturing yourself like that will not change anything, it will not undo the past and b) your relationship would probably still have broken even if you were in the States because if a couple is strong enough they can withstand the hardships of moving internationally, imho. 

You said you haven't learned the language yet. Why don't you take some language classes? That way you can meet other English speaking people to hang out with. What else do you or would you like to do now that you have the chance?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I'm in Western Europe (prefer not to disclose). I'm going to start taking classes again. I had taken some free ones but they were so disorganized I stopped. I started taking private ones last summer but then WS dropped the bomb and I stopped going to classes.

Social interactions are much harder without WS to translate at times of difficulty. There are probably some social groups here but I've been pretty busy just trying to get my affairs in order (starting from scratch) I haven't really started looking yet. I've also been in a deep, deep funk thought I'm hoping the meds I am taking will start to kick in soon.

PS - "Co-dependant No more" has been recommended


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Spoke with D6 tonight when putting her to bed.

I felt very sad for her. She is such a sweet, good, smart girl and I know she's been traumatized by this. She's sensitive like her Dad. She told me she doesn't want Mommy and Daddy to separate and started to cry. She doesn't understand really and I tried to explain as best I could. She's never heard the word divorce so I had to explain that, too. She talks about when Mommy and Daddy used to yell and she asks me why I don't come over to Mommy's apartment anymore. At this point, I felt like I had to explain more who OM is and why Mommy left Daddy and why Daddy was sad/upset/angry. She's heard some of this before but she's just not able to understand the adult stuff. I plan on getting a therapist for her. She actually told me she thought my wife yelled more than I did, which was a surprise to me. I figured I did most of the yelling after DDay. D6 should never have witnessed any of this. It's times like this when I feel I can almost hate my wife yet I know I still love her. Damn that woman owns my heart despite all of this. I better start reading that Co-Dependency book.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> She actually told me she thought my wife yelled more than I did, which was a surprise to me.


You may be surprised.

We aren't.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Spoke with D6 tonight when putting her to bed.
> 
> I felt very sad for her. She is such a sweet, good, smart girl and I know she's been traumatized by this. She's sensitive like her Dad. She told me she doesn't want Mommy and Daddy to separate and started to cry. She doesn't understand really and I tried to explain as best I could. She's never heard the word divorce so I had to explain that, too. She talks about when Mommy and Daddy used to yell and she asks me why I don't come over to Mommy's apartment anymore. At this point, I felt like I had to explain more who OM is and why Mommy left Daddy and why Daddy was sad/upset/angry. She's heard some of this before but she's just not able to understand the adult stuff. I plan on getting a therapist for her. She actually told me she thought my wife yelled more than I did, which was a surprise to me. I figured I did most of the yelling after DDay. D6 should never have witnessed any of this. It's times like this when I feel I can almost hate my wife yet I know I still love her. Damn that woman owns my heart despite all of this. I better start reading that Co-Dependency book.


Might want to check out a book to read with her - Dinosaur's Divorce.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

While going through the drive-thru on Saturday to get coffee before my daughters dance, my S4 asked me why I don't wear the ring I used to.

I told him that was the ring I wore when mom and dad were together. We aren't together anymore, so I don't wear the ring.

Neither D6 or S4 asked any other questions, then proceeded to enjoy there pre dance bagel.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I think the meds are starting to help, but I'm not sure. It seems it would be too early. I think I feel less anxiety and I didn't cry last night after D6 started talking about not wanting us to divorce. I told D6 last night that I would never leave her. I think she probably has a fear because I went to the USA for two months to regain my sanity. I had some doubts about whether I could stay in this country, but I know I can't be without my girls. Even if I won't have much of an adult life for myself for any conceivable future, I will be here for my girls. 

I think back to the months and months after D-Day when I had intense anxiety. I mean, intense. I was still having trouble concentrating, sleeping, thinking, etc for well past the time I should have. My mind was fixated on my situation.I did not see a doctor or psychiatrist. I would still have intense periods of crying, despair, etc. rather frequently. Even 5 months after. Is that normal? I'm just wondering if I've messed up brain because of this trauma.

I realize that the trauma made the 180 nearly impossible for me. In hindsight, I totally blew the 180. In fact, the one period of time I followed it correctly is what led to the false R, but I took her back so willingly she must have found that attractive. My mindset at the time was "we can do this; we can get through it together; we're still a team despite the awfulness that happened". Is that a bad mindset to have? It seems the advice here is to always put the onus on the WS.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

After an exchange on the phone about divorce stuff, (heated at times), I saw STBX yesterday and everything was fine. I realize that she absolutely owns my heart and I need her validation. I need to know what kind of man she thinks I am and whether she respects me. It's true, I do. Because she replaced me and there's no greater blow to a man's soul than that. I still want her so badly it's ridiculous. 

I think of my uncle, whose first wife left him after 20+ years (they had lost a child in a car accident and it deeply affected them; she had an affair later) and I'm pretty sure that she will always be the big love of his life that his heart pines for. Even if he remarried a great woman. 

Over the past few months, I have given my STBX so much sh!t about everything she had done. (It's unfortunate I did not start my TAM thread then - I could have used the spot checks of good advice.) How unfair she'd been, how selfish, unaware, etc. Judging her for her affair and blaming her for my misery and the effects on our children. I was the Persecutor. I think I just wanted to punish her for wounding me so badly. I engaged in passive-aggressive behavior, this I am not proud of. I was staked out on the Victim's Chair and when she said "you keep playing the victim" I even said "well, I am the victim here". Not very strong. 

But the speed at which she separated, the haste at which she was going to move in with OM and introduce him to our kids was too much to take. Honestly, how do you be "cheerful, strong, independent" (the words of the 180) when barely five or six weeks after separation your wife is planning an *overnight* trip to what is effectively Disneyland with OM and YOUR children? Maybe some people are mature enough to deal with that, I guess I was not.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

I think you do a great job articulating your pain. And here's my perhaps simplistic answer to some of your questions. 

Lots of men would have LOST THEIR MINDS, dealing with what you've had to face. Drank themselves to death or gone postal. 

But like Soca, you're getting up every morning, putting your pants on, making those kids breakfast. You're doing it. Keep doing it.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> SS
> 
> I think you do a great job articulating your pain. And here's my perhaps simplistic answer to some of your questions.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure I did lose my mind for a while there. If you recall, I was considering suicide a couple of times simply to end the pain. Soca's got his stuff together way better than me. 

I don't know if my wife understands this but she's completely destroyed my manhood. Smashed it to smithereens. I've come to realize I will never actually heal from this, or that it will take years and years to get over. 

If you follow my thread, you know I'm having difficulty with the sex part. Imagining him and her together drives me crazy - it just makes my stomach turn. How do you guys deal with that? 

I start to have all these regrets about things we didn't do sexually - you know, we never made a sex tape, or we never used toys, etc. I know it sounds weird, maybe even shallow, but these are things I would have liked to explore with my wife. Do most couples do that? We were both sexual but for some reason we never got too much into kinky stuff. Maybe we felt we didn't need it? I blame myself for not introducing stuff and leading. I feel like such an ... amateur .. I don't know. I just hate the idea that maybe some other guy is opening her up more sexually. That was for us to do together. I just feel robbed on every front. How do you deal with that? I remember one guy saying he'd basically done everything with his wife many times so that part didn't bother him.

I almost want to tell my wife my regrets but that would probably wind up hurting me more.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I think the meds are starting to help, but I'm not sure. It seems it would be too early. I think I feel less anxiety and I didn't cry last night after D6 started talking about not wanting us to divorce. I told D6 last night that I would never leave her. I think she probably has a fear because I went to the USA for two months to regain my sanity. I had some doubts about whether I could stay in this country, but I know I can't be without my girls. Even if I won't have much of an adult life for myself for any conceivable future, I will be here for my girls.
> 
> I think back to the months and months after D-Day when I had intense anxiety. I mean, intense. I was still having trouble concentrating, sleeping, thinking, etc for well past the time I should have. My mind was fixated on my situation.I did not see a doctor or psychiatrist. I would still have intense periods of crying, despair, etc. rather frequently. Even 5 months after. Is that normal? I'm just wondering if I've messed up brain because of this trauma.
> 
> I realize that the trauma made the 180 nearly impossible for me. In hindsight, I totally blew the 180. In fact, the one period of time I followed it correctly is what led to the false R, but I took her back so willingly she must have found that attractive. My mindset at the time was "we can do this; we can get through it together; we're still a team despite the awfulness that happened". Is that a bad mindset to have? It seems the advice here is to always put the onus on the WS.


4 months is not a long time. Be prepared to be on the rollercoaster for quite a while longer, I've been told 2 years by countless people but everyone heals differently. Its been 6 months for me and some days I'm still an emotional wreck so yes its normal. 

I've also had those thoughts that "if he just came back everything would be fine, we can repair this....etc". Its the CD talking. You can fix her, she can only fix herself. You need to focus on fixing yourself. Whatever happens in the future only time will tell. And you will have a happy adult life, its just going to take some time to get there. You are responsibile for your own happiness. 

And agree with Z - Dinosaurs Divorce is a great book for kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

familyfirst09 said:


> *I've also had those thoughts that "if he just came back everything would be fine, we can repair this....etc". Its the CD talking. *You can fix her, she can only fix herself. You need to focus on fixing yourself. Whatever happens in the future only time will tell. And you will have a happy adult life, its just going to take some time to get there. You are responsibile for your own happiness.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For sure. I was more referring to the actual False R we had. I was all excited because I thought hey we're going to be one of those couples that gets through this and builds an even better marriage. I had no clue what I was really dealing with.

Yep, I'm definitely broken. Working on it... trying to get my mojo back. I've lost my swagger and sense of being "cool". She's made me doubt my abilities.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I'm in Western Europe (prefer not to disclose). I'm going to start taking classes again. I had taken some free ones but they were so disorganized I stopped. I started taking private ones last summer but then WS dropped the bomb and I stopped going to classes.
> 
> Social interactions are much harder without WS to translate at times of difficulty. There are probably some social groups here but I've been pretty busy just trying to get my affairs in order (starting from scratch) I haven't really started looking yet. I've also been in a deep, deep funk thought I'm hoping the meds I am taking will start to kick in soon.
> 
> PS - "Co-dependant No more" has been recommended


I read that book...very very good!


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

staystrong said:


> She's made me doubt my abilities.


I'm famous for this. You are putting your self worth and value on how she feels about you. You are doubting your abilities because you are allowing yourself to doubt your abilities. Just don't doubt them. You are responsible for your own happiness. Totally cliche I know but its true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

SS, you first made huge strides by pulling away from the dark thoughts. now you are asking questions and looking for answers rather than chasing endless what ifs (even if there is still some of that too). I feel in like the last few days you have actually taken another positive step forward. 

It may not feel like it from inside the situation, but looking in, to me at least it does look much more hopeful for you. That "she" made you doubt your abilities is quite insightful. You handed over that power to her. Now you need to reclaim it and have your self worth as a totally separate thing from what she thinks. 

I think you have got this SS. It may be a long hard road still but i truly think you are making progress. What other people think of us may be important, depending who they are, but it is not as important as what we think of ourselves.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I'm pretty sure I did lose my mind for a while there. If you recall, I was considering suicide a couple of times simply to end the pain. Soca's got his stuff together way better than me.
> 
> I don't know if my wife understands this but she's completely destroyed my manhood. Smashed it to smithereens. I've come to realize I will never actually heal from this, or that it will take years and years to get over.
> 
> ...


You know what gets me...me and my stbxh did do all this stuff...we had a great sex life...and none of it would have nor did nor does it matter...if they are going to walk they are going to walk. If they are going to stray ...they are going to stray. 
My stbxh didn't cheat but dam that walking out with no closure gets me...it's the 'wtf' that still gets me...
We get robbed on different levels regardless. ...and now he's out there replacing me...like I was the bad one...like 'his needs' didn't get met...when it's mine that didn't. 

I was expendable to him. ...I am so angry...so so angry...


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Stella, when i see one party moving on like that and the other fighting demons, I see one person doomed to repeat history and one with a chance of genuine happiness. I think you know that and I think you know which is which.

He went as "you" didnt make him happy, now he needs someone else to make him happy as he can't make himself happy. He is missing the whole self thing and with his history of lashing out at those he perceives to be to blame, he will be doing the same damn thing over and over.

We can find something or someone external to plug that hole inside but being external , it's like a incompatible transplant; eventually it will be rejected and forced out, leaving the hole still there or possible with even more damage done.

In the meantime, while he is fooling himself that he is happy, you are fighting the pain and trying to find answers to why you are so unhappy. You are looking inwards to find the void filler you need. It hurts, facing inner demons is a painful thing to do but those of us that find the courage to face them, are the only ones that have a chance to beat them.

.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Stella, when i see one party moving on like that and the other fighting demons, I see one person doomed to repeat history and one with a chance of genuine happiness. I think you know that and I think you know which is which.
> 
> He went as "you" didnt make him happy, now he needs someone else to make him happy as he can't make himself happy. He is missing the whole self thing and with his history of lashing out at those he perceives to be to blame, he will be doing the same damn thing over and over.
> 
> ...


Damxn KC ....This post means a lot to me right now. I needed to read every word. If I could hug you you would not be able to breathe. I needed this.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> Damxn KC ....This post means a lot to me right now. I needed to read every word. If I could hug you you would not be able to breathe. I needed this.


How about a virtual one. Wearing that red top.. 

It's the same for me and many others I think. It's where i see SS atm too. We are slowly waking up to the fact we have failed to make *ourselves* happy and are looking for answers to that problem that don't involve '*them*'.

Doesnt mean we don't think about them, hell i am a massive sucker for thinking about Mrs.C but I have realised I need to be happy without her before I could hope to be happy with her or with anyone else for that matter.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

SS, your recent post are showing signs of progress. You are headed in the right direction. You are starting to ask the right questions. You do not sound as close minded, as you did a few weeks ago. 

This time will pass for all of us.. The suffering, the pain, the experience won't come without its reward in the end.

I'm proud of you buddy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Thanks guys. I'm surprised to get this feedback. I was not aware of the changes myself, and to be honest I still don't see what you see but I will take your word for it? I thought I was going to get 2x4's for still pining over her.

KC, what if they just "fall out of love" or don't fell happy in the relationship anymore? The build up of annoyances, resentments, etc? But if that's true, why is the other partner (us) still committed? Is it the codependency? For me, I wouldn't break up a family or cheat for the reasons she purported - but everyone's different.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Well, there is the reason that my business was not profitable in the time frame I gave her. I do have to consider that a failing on my part.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I wish I had a better answer but if they did that, what can we do about it? We can't time travel and we can't repair a damaged wall once they knock the house down either.

The commitment could be simply that. Commitment - feeling an obligation. It could be Co-dependancy where we have tied our identity to them so closely we don't know how to not be with them, it could be simple honest love. Maybe all three. I'm kinda making this crap up as I go along fella.

All we can do now is examine the rubble from the house. See which bits we could hve repaired if we had been more aware. Acknowledge we could have done this, or that, better. but also see the fact that those missed repairs didn't make the house fall down. The dirty great bulldozer they used on the house is what made it come down.

From there we can rebuild. make a new house. With or without them depends on each circumstance but it will be a new house not the old one. We learn our lessons form the old one to apply to the new one as best we can.

Own our mistakes. Work on them.

Release their mistakes, they are beyond our control.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

My fear is that if this relationship was not sustainable, what one could be? This was the 'big one'.

I see people on here who seem to be doing all the right stuff and they still get left. It's like WTF?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

No one is perfect. Even the ones in very long term relationships have had issues to work through. On the ones that fail though, sometimes one spouse can be so broken to begin with that they break it all by themselves.

It takes two to make a marriage but it sure as hell can take just one to break it.

All we can do is be the best we can and watch for red flags. Beyond that there is luck/fate/karma etcetc.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

You mean my wife leaving her first husband for me was a red flag? 

I will say at the time her marriage was on the skids. She had already cheated on him. Wait, was that another flag? 

LOL - I know. What was I thinking? I thought she had reformed. She seemed like a good person who had married someone she'd been with since 18 years old and it petered out.

If I could find her ex, I'd let him know. Just so he could feel some justice.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

:rofl: Heh, yeah those sort of flags. 

Just don't make the same mistake twice.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> You mean my wife leaving her first husband for me was a red flag?
> 
> I will say at the time her marriage was on the skids. She had already cheated on him. Wait, was that another flag?
> 
> ...


Everything you are saying and finally realizing is great but I wanna point this out. Do you really think after all these years her ex is still holding onto what happened, waiting for 'justice'?

I sure hope not.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Probably not but it may give him sort of closure or sense that it wasn't so much him but her. Hell, that thing the BS always wonders about.

He could add it to the Karma Bus stories here on TAM.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Probably not but it may give him sort of closure or sense that it wasn't so much him but her. Hell, that thing the BS always wonders about.


If he's really moved on, he's already figured this out.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

zillard said:


> If he's really moved on, he's already figured this out.


Maybe. I'm guessing we carry this pain forever in some form or another. If it could give him some peace, I'd want to let him know.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Had a mini breakdown today. I thought about the time my STBXW told me 4 months after DDay that she always expected she would have a precious life with me (i.e. a long marriage), and it's sad but too late and and now she thinks she will have that with POSOM. She broke my heart again that day.

D6 told me one of her classmate's fathers died. I dont know - it just set me off and put things in perspective.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Had a mini breakdown today. I thought about the time my STBXW told me 4 months after DDay that she always expected she would have a precious life with me (i.e. a long marriage), and it's sad but too late and and now she thinks she will have that with POSOM. She broke my heart again that day.
> 
> D6 told me one of her classmate's fathers died. *I dont know - it just set me off and put things in perspective.*


The perspective of how short life can be and it shouldn't be wasted on those who want nothing to do with you?


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## rsersen (Jan 30, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Had a mini breakdown today. I thought about the time my STBXW told me 4 months after DDay that she always expected she would have a precious life with me (i.e. a long marriage), and it's sad but too late and and now she thinks she will have that with POSOM. She broke my heart again that day.
> 
> D6 told me one of her classmate's fathers died. I dont know - it just set me off and put things in perspective.


I was also given the "I always wanted this to work" speech. But that sadly it just couldn't work, something was "broken", and we couldn't go back and fix it. But to be told that she thinks she'll have all of that with her new guy? Wow. Not sure how I'd handle that - probably would imitate your Valnetine's Day dinner crashing.

And hopefully the perspective you're getting out of this is exactly what Daddio says.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Had a mini breakdown today. I thought about the time my STBXW told me 4 months after DDay that she always expected she would have a precious life with me (i.e. a long marriage), and it's sad but too late and and now she thinks she will have that with POSOM. She broke my heart again that day.
> 
> D6 told me one of her classmate's fathers died. I dont know - it just set me off and put things in perspective.


I'm certain she told her first husband the same things.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> The perspective of how short life can be and it shouldn't be wasted on those who want nothing to do with you?


The perspective of how sad it would be if one of D6's friends was saying that about me to her Dad. I just remembered the place I was not so long ago and how I still sometimes feel.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> The perspective of how sad it would be if one of D6's friends was saying that about me to her Dad. I just remembered the place I was not so long ago and how I still sometimes feel.


Don't forget it.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I'm certain she told her first husband the same things.


Probably. I think the precious life comment reflected us as husband and wife but also quite clearly as mother and father. She realizes she CAN break up her family but that hey she can start another with him. It was a rare moment of showing emotion on her part (discounting her croc tears moments or the occasional mini-breakdowns for herself). When I had earlier that month pointed out that none of D6's or D3's friends' parents were separated, she simply replied "give it a couple of years". This was the woman I planned to grow old with, be buried next to, etc. She's not the one for that. She's on a different voyage.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> Don't forget it.


Definitely won't.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

rsersen said:


> I was also given the "I always wanted this to work" speech. But that sadly it just couldn't work, something was "broken", and we couldn't go back and fix it. But to be told that she thinks she'll have all of that with her new guy? Wow. Not sure how I'd handle that - probably would imitate your Valnetine's Day dinner crashing.
> 
> And hopefully the perspective you're getting out of this is exactly what Daddio says.


I think they mean it when they say it. It's just they have no idea how it sounds from our end.

It didn't make me angry as much as it made me unbelievably sad. It's hard to describe in words.


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## rsersen (Jan 30, 2013)

staystrong said:


> I think they mean it when they say it. It's just they have no idea how it sounds from our end.
> 
> It didn't make me angry as much as it made me unbelievably sad. It's hard to describe in words.


I'm sure they mean it. I mean, of course they wanted it to work...n one goes up to the altar with the idea that they'll be divorced at some point.

I know what you mean. It didn't make me angry, it was frustrating, and it made me so sad. I even asked mine why she was doing this if "us" is what she wanted, and her only response was "I know it can't work." I left it at that, because that was all I could do.

You just want to grab them by the shoulders and say "if that's true, then what are you doing? Work with me!" Then again, maybe the keyword in this speech is "wanted", not "want." Very sad.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Only if you insist on talking to them like they're men.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Only if you insist on talking to them like they're men.


So what was the correct response? 
"I'm sorry you feel that way."? 


Post DDay, she told me in MC that they had "dreams" for each. Turned out the dreams were pretty much the same dreams we'd had. I think my STBXW falls in love quickly - when pressed in MC she confessed a fantasy of wanting to have his baby. Fortunately I had already read some stuff about the fog and this desire in particular, but it was still tough to hear that coming from my wife's mouth about another man. Part of me wanted to walk away at that point, but I knew it was the rainbow and unicorn hormones talking. He didn't know about this - she probably didn't want to scare him away. It's unfortunate that I'm not telling this story where there's a happy ending for us - the truth now is that she probably will have a child with him some day since he does not have any. ("I can give him things his other women have not" she once remarked. Vomit) I hoped I have moved on by that time. These are the things we will have to face.


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## Hurt Odyssey_DK HL (Jan 21, 2013)

staystrong you need to do just as your name says. My STBXW is in the same "fog" right now. The posOM has brainwashed her. I found what looked like his and her handwriting on a piece of paper with phrases like "you deserve more" "don't let anyone define what you are worth" "think about what's good for you" BS. So yeah the fog is thick and heavy. I'm hoping she doesn't actually share any of this with me. I know every time she sees me though there is guilt about what she is doing hence her maneuver is to avoid seeing me at all costs. Every time I see her I more disgusted than anything. When I'm away I'm just in a lot of pain. We got to get past that part, focus on ourselves to begin healing. 

Now I just need to take my own advice.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hurt Odyssey_DK HL said:


> staystrong you need to do just as your name says. My STBXW is in the same "fog" right now. The posOM has brainwashed her. I found what looked like his and her handwriting on a piece of paper with phrases like "you deserve more" "don't let anyone define what you are worth" "think about what's good for you" BS. So yeah the fog is thick and heavy. I'm hoping she doesn't actually share any of this with me. I know every time she sees me though there is guilt about what she is doing hence her maneuver is to avoid seeing me at all costs. Every time I see her I more disgusted than anything. When I'm away I'm just in a lot of pain. We got to get past that part, focus on ourselves to begin healing.
> 
> Now I just need to take my own advice.


Is there a posOMW?


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

Can't believe you had to endure her saying that about a baby during your MC. I can't imagine a more cruel thing for a husband to ever hear from his wife. 

So sorry, dude.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Hurt Odyssey_DK HL said:


> staystrong you need to do just as your name says. My STBXW is in the same "fog" right now. The posOM has brainwashed her. I found what looked like his and her handwriting on a piece of paper with phrases like "you deserve more" "don't let anyone define what you are worth" "think about what's good for you" BS. So yeah the fog is thick and heavy. I'm hoping she doesn't actually share any of this with me. I know every time she sees me though there is guilt about what she is doing hence her maneuver is to avoid seeing me at all costs. Every time I see her I more disgusted than anything. When I'm away I'm just in a lot of pain. We got to get past that part, focus on ourselves to begin healing.
> 
> Now I just need to take my own advice.


Yeah, I guess you didn't see "We need to treat others with compassion, respect and dignity" or "Honesty is a crucial element of happiness" anywhere in there.

Stay strong there Hurt. Lift that fog.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> SS
> 
> Can't believe you had to endure her saying that about a baby during your MC. I can't imagine a more cruel thing for a husband to ever hear from his wife.
> 
> So sorry, dude.



Now you see why I feel so wacked in the head, LOL. 

It makes we wonder if she had checked out before even meeting this guy.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Now you see why I feel so wacked in the head, LOL.
> 
> It makes we wonder if she had checked out before even meeting this guy.


She likely did. 

My X said she'd been thinking about leaving for a couple years. My IC said that's pretty normal for the one that jets. I didn't believe her. That was my own delusion. 

When I reviewed her facebook correspondence I saw that early last summer she'd been messaging with an old boyfriend about dreams they'd been having about each other. 

People invested in their marriage just don't do that.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

zillard said:


> She likely did.
> 
> My X said she'd been thinking about leaving for a couple years. My IC said that's pretty normal for the one that jets. I didn't believe her. That was my own delusion.
> 
> ...


Very true.

I don't know what to believe. 

I asked my ex "when did it start for you?" and she told me that she was upset with me two years ago for a particular recurring issue (she thought i complained too much about her not doing housework; i probably did, but since DDay I've learned not to sweat the small stuff). When we moved back here to her country we lived with MIL for a year. STBXW says she was happy then but that MIL was probably a good "buffer" for us. Okay. She says the trouble didn't really start until we moved out and she had the burden of paying the bills. I understand that women don't normally have to take this role on, but my wife claims to be very modern and independent. It stressed the hell out of her, apparently.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Very true.
> 
> I don't know what to believe.
> 
> I asked my ex "when did it start for you?" and she told me that she was upset with me two years ago for a particular recurring issue (she thought i complained too much about her not doing housework; i probably did, but since DDay I've learned not to sweat the small stuff). When we moved back here to her country we lived with MIL for a year. STBXW says she was happy then but that MIL was probably a good "buffer" for us. Okay. She says the trouble didn't really start until we moved out and she had the burden of paying the bills. I understand that women don't normally have to take this role on, but my wife claims to be very modern and independent. It stressed the hell out of her, apparently.


All minor and fixable. No deal breakers there. Her detachment was not on you.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I don't know. I look at Harley's list of Love Busters and I can count them up. I guess we were making more withdrawals than deposits. I used to think this site was hokey now I like it:
Love Busters


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Good post, SS. 

My STBX makes more money than me, had lots more assets, property, etc. and every time when she'd get really pissed off at me shed emasculate the SHYT out of me, say stuff like, "You're not very ambitious, are you? Don't you feel bad with me making more money than you?"


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Somehow we're taught that we can say anything we want to the people we are closest to. That we can just "speak our mind". This couldn't be further from the truth. If you hold your mate with less regard than you would a stranger, your relationship is in danger.


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## soca70 (Oct 30, 2012)

SS - my STBX checked out 18 months prior. It's a universal pattern I've seen here and heard elsewhere.

I wanted to let you know I've seen your recent posts and it sounds like you're doing MUCH better than a few weeks ago. Keep it up man!


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Yo yo yo....spinnin Chuckie D wit yaz

up next is SS's matra

"Breaking the Chains" by Dokken


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> Yo yo yo....spinnin Chuckie D wit yaz
> 
> up next is SS's matra
> 
> "Breaking the Chains" by Dokken


LOL - Chuck always making my day


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> I don't know. I look at Harley's list of Love Busters and I can count them up. I guess we were making more withdrawals than deposits. I used to think this site was hokey now I like it:
> Love Busters


He's really a smart guy.

He helped me learn something really really important.

Pressing an argument is actually a form of disrespect. You crowd the other person out of their own point of view.

I would never have thought that.


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## soca70 (Oct 30, 2012)

Conrad said:


> He's really a smart guy.
> 
> He helped me learn something really really important.
> 
> ...


This is a great nugget. I've been very guilty of this in the past.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

soca70 said:


> This is a great nugget. I've been very guilty of this in the past.


Same here. It's pushy and self-righteous.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Breakthrough day today.

One of the ones I've been waiting for.

Let's just hope it's not temporary.


Today was the first day, literally since DDay 7 months ago, that I have experienced anything I would remotely consider calling "peace" and "calm". For months after DDay, every single second of every single minute of every single day I was experiencing excruciating pain and anxiety over my situation. Every space in my head was dominated by compulsive thoughts, anguish and torment. Today was the first morning I woke up and could face the day. 

I knew I was severely incapacitated. I didn't realize I needed medical help as badly as I did. The first therapist I saw did not steer me that way (how on Earth I don't know why; I was a bloody mess in her office) and I didn't seek further treatment. My life was in shambles and I was slogging through the day; making breakfast was a chore, never mind trying to take care of the kids (failed at that). People knew I was hurting but maybe they didn't know how bad. In a way, I wish I had known someone experienced enough to realize I needed to be dragged into the psych office. 

I eventually tried taking Paxil about 4 months after DDay but stopped after three days because it had really bad side effects. After my suicidal depression a couple of weeks ago, I went and had Cipralin prescribed. After a week, I am noticing some effects. As I said, the first day of peace so far. The first day I didn't want to kill myself.

It's amazing the difference it makes. I can make sound decisions, not just react to things. I don't feel the malice towards my wife that I used to feel. I realize I pestered her so much with questions about the affair, pushing her to get back together for the sake of the kids, etc. Part of this was due to my mental instability. Now I am more neutral. I am not seeking to punish her or thwart her. I don't feel the need to be cold or curt with her. And thank God I don't feel like I am going to randomly break down in the grocery store on any give day. I have less anger, regret and so on. I have more resolve, more appreciation. I would dare say I finally feel "normal" for the first time in a long time.

It doesn't change the underlying problems. I miss my previous life and I'm unsure about my long-term quality of life living here in the burbs in a foreign country. (There are few single women available in these parts, and I don't speak their language very well anyhow.) My heart still knows or thinks that something went awry in our relationship but that we could have had a great life together. Don't call me delusional Up! I can even say my wife is overall a good person. I've read enough about affairs to understand how an EA starts and results in a PA and then boom failed marriage, the WS is in too deep. Her life is now intertwined with another man's and there's nothing I can do about it. Let her go. I understand that I place a higher value on commitment, communication and "working things out" than she does. I always have. 

I also realize I was a fool or an ass about some things, but find me a person that reacts well in every given situation. Certainly my wife could have been more tender. I realize I needed to make some changes, but either did not see what they were or I procrastinated. I was probably even mildly depressed and didn't know it. I was also very focused on my work and family life, and perhaps not enough on the couple. I could say many more things, but so what? I've polled my married friends and they all have their issues. So when people tell you "cheating is a symptom of problems in the marriage", ask yourself what marriages don't have problems? Eh? Any WS could find a fault if he or she so chose, it could even be something as unverifiable as "I didn't feel loved enough". (And maybe their feelings are valid.) It could be something completely mundane and ridiculous. We've all seen some ridiculous ones. (Z, was it your wife whose sole complaint was that you took money from her purse without telling her?)

Anyhow...

I woke up with D6 and D3 in the bed with me (they sometimes sleep with me, especially on cold nights) and I was just so happy to have them, and I finally felt like I'll really be able to take care of them, not just barely manage. And I feel my wife's a fool for not wanting to spend every moment she can with the three of us. I was no ogre. I'm a great f'ing guy, a responsible dad, a great lay  and someone that someone else will really appreciate.

More to come.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

As you cast down the runway

did you notice the horrid place you are now leaving?

Descending into the air....bliss

isn't the view nicer up here?


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

SS, to answer your question - I am certainly sure Every marriage become vulnerable at some point. The marriages that last are the ones where both individuals work harder as oppose to the ones that just stop trying. That's why you shouldn't be to hard on yourself. A committed spouse is one with an open mind, optimistic, and a person who has their priorities on straight.

Like Zillard said, it didn't appear like their were any deal breakers in your scenario; she just quit... Just like she quit on her first marriage, now her second, and in all likely hood she'll quit on her 3rd.

Now why would you want to be with a person like that?

Listen to Chucky. He's seeing things from a point a view, that we will see in the near future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Chuck was in after me and out before me. He took a bullet train through the BS.

Yes, every marriage becomes vulnerable. We were at our seven year itch mark.

Someone made a great comment on another area of this site. Something to the effect of _"I've had lousy sex in a good marriage, I've had lousy sex in a lousy marriage, I've had good sex in a good marriage and I've good sex in a lousy marriage - all with the same man!"._

You asked me about wife... Why would I want someone like that? :liar: :scratchhead:

Ha, it's the question I ask other posters on TAM regarding their cheating wives! 

Part of it is the *codependency*, part of it is the history, part of it is simply her, and part of it is the idea of overcoming adversity. It's hard enough to forgive when someone is remorseful and want to return, but when they willingly rip the marriage in half and leave you for another person, it's not a good idea to pine for them. Yet part of you does. Then good guys like Conrad, Happy and others come in and lock you in the room and try to deprogram you from your brainwashed love cultist state of mind. Hopefully they get through to you.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I know that in part she left to pursue her long held passion for music (this guy is a musician). She's always wanted to be a singer and this guy fits into that whole dream. Me? I suppose I was more of a burden in that regard. I supported her but not at the speed and depth she wanted. I was still the guy that wanted to put these things into balance. Her response during the A at least was that "quality not quantity of time" together was more important. I can't compete with a childless musician AP with a rose in his mouth and a continuous hard on in his tight pants. Plus, I've been the AP (sort of). I know that side of it. You get the best of the WW, the husband gets crumbs and duty sex. I'm ashamed of of being the OM to her first H, but the circumstances were much different yet I won't go into them now.

Every couple is different, so it is hard to compare them all. She was my only big love, and she's also the mother of my children, and it's difficult to completely cut off feelings. All of you understand this. I put a lot of value on family, as do you guys. Due to my mental instability after DDay, I spent a lot of time hating her. Now I feel I'm not going to hate the mother of my kids - I'm just going to try and let her go. Like you with your wife, I'm just sad she did this dreaded awful thing and altered the course of the lives of those she loved and loved her. When I stare into D3's face, I see my wife. D3's bubbly antics will always remind me of my wife and that's when the feelings come back. This was our child - together - an expression of our love. I'm just going to be cordial and keep the talk restricted to the kids. Just be a pleasure to be around because I am content. What the 180 teaches but I could not see it through fog of pain. Meds, I need you back then.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Great posts, SS. I do so understand your feelings about dealing with an unremorseful WS as opposed to one who comes looking for forgiveness. 

Unfortunately I will now have the image of this numbnuts with a rose in his teeth and hard on in tight pants all day, gives me THE SHIVERS.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS......Keep in mind.....no children.....lots easier. Hard to keep the indifference when you look into your child's eyes and you can 'see your spouse'. Like I said.....I got off easy.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad,

Based on the side convo we had plus the normalizing effect of this medication, I feel more positive and I also see how she must have seen me as an absolute dweeb in terms of manliness. I do have regrets as a result, would like to pretend that I could have been seen the better long-run choice had I handled myself better. You've given me a new lens to look through. I think all I can do at this point is write this one off as a learning lesson, which is hard considering the potential that was there. "Man up" has a new meaning for me. A real and useful meaning, not an over the top meaning.

POSOM / STBXW update: They moved out of our marital apt a month earlier based on my V Day visit and are paying double rent. I think OM felt like crap for seeing how enraged I was that he had been living there. I believe my wife probably minimized how I felt about it. In her head and his.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Looking back, even the things that seemed 'strong' were weak. Displays of verbal force is not strength.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Looking back, even the things that seemed 'strong' were weak. Displays of verbal force is not strength.


Women interpret restraint as strength.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Women interpret restraint as strength.


Yes. As I recently wrote on my thread - X gets angry and confused when I turn into "Dr. Phil". Because of the contrast between my restraint and her inability to control herself. 

She does not like to feel weak or out of control. But shortly after she is as nice as can be - once she calms down she respects it.



Conrad said:


> Pressing an argument is actually a form of disrespect. You crowd the other person out of their own point of view.


And thank you for this, Conrad and SS!


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

I always told myself I just enjoy a good debate. What a crock. I was arrogant.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

zillard said:


> I always told myself I just enjoy a good debate. What a crock. I was arrogant.


Pleasers struggle to impress.


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## zappy88200 (Dec 6, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Based on the side convo we had plus the normalizing effect of this medication, I feel more positive and I also see how she must have seen me as an absolute *dweeb* in terms of manliness.


You are not a Dweeb and please don't feel that way about yourself. You are a strong, educated and a lovely husband to your wife.

It is utterly her fault to leave this beautiful marriage where GOD has given her 2 kids.

Each of your post is very well written and thought provoking.

You are in my prayers Brother.

God Bless You

Zappy


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

It's not whether you are a "dweeb" but whether you are seen to be one by them I guess.

SS isn't a dweeb but he is right to examine what he did that could make her feel it regardless. As we 'give' of ourselves to please them, we relinquish the leadership role that probably got them in the first place.

I was in denial about this stuff a long time, just like SS, but it is slowly being 2x4'd into me.


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## zappy88200 (Dec 6, 2012)

K.C. said:


> It's not whether you are a "dweeb" but whether you are seen to be one by them I guess.
> 
> SS isn't a dweeb but he is right to examine what he did that could make her feel it regardless. As we 'give' of ourselves to please them, we relinquish the leadership role that probably got them in the first place.
> 
> I was in denial about this stuff a long time, just like SS, but it is slowly being 2x4'd into me.


But that is so WRONG of a spouse to consider your better half a "dweeb" just beacuse he has been so nice to her.

Instead of giving appreciation she thought SS was a dweeb, horrible mistake on her part.

Zappy


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I agree. Actively trying to please them, shouldnt push them asway but that is how we as "nice guys" think. It's not how they think.

If a woman wants their man to be a strong leader and you start as that but then start letting them take the lead in everything and become a follower as the marriage goes on i order to please them.. that changed dynamic is going to change how she looks at you.

Seriously Zappy, this stuff is counter intuitive to me too but I am seeing it in so many ways now. As with so many truths, it is an uncomfortable one. Doesnt make it less true though.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

zappy88200 said:


> But that is so WRONG of a spouse to consider you better half a "dweeb" just beacuse he has been so nice to her.
> 
> Instead of giving appreciation she thought SS was a dweeb, horrible mistake on her part.
> 
> Zappy


I was referring more to my actions post DDay, although it could probably be applied to our marriage up to a year prior to that date. Due to my hurt, anger and sense of injustice over the affair and being dumped, I played the victim, the wronged person, wanting to show her how awful she was but at the same time desperately wanting her to come back and looking for opps to push R. This is normal I suppose but due to my mental instability (continuous anxiety/depression) I was edgy and made hasty or bad judgement calls. I probably appeared helpless in her eyes. Distraught. Weak. 

The ineptness prior to that time I don't take seriously. I know OM came in and did a couple of handyman things at our apartment which annoyed me b/c I'm sure my wife was all like "oh, staystrong never took care of the place like you do".


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I was reading back through some post-DDay and post False R emails and chats. Trust me, I was a dweeb.. god, SUCH a dweeb. Finding opps to talk about us when the emails were about the kids, being her shoulder to cry on when she felt sadness about withdrawal from AP, etc. Seriously, it's no wonder she left. I had no spine.. what kind of respect would you have for someone who be cheerleading you to R if you had cheated on them? You'd think they are hopelessly desperate and you can walk all over them. See, there's the codependency: you see the relationship, she sees you and herself.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> i was reading back through some post-dday and post false r emails and chats. Trust me, i was a dweeb.. God, such a dweeb. Finding opps to talk about us when the emails were about the kids, being her shoulder to cry on when she felt sadness about withdrawal from ap, etc. Seriously, it's no wonder she left. I had no spine.. What kind of respect would you have for someone who be cheerleading you to r if you had cheated on them? You'd think they are hopelessly desperate and you can walk all over them. See, there's the codependency: You see the relationship, she sees you and herself.


this


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

C-Note, I think he's got it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS - 

Same same. Looking back, I'm disgusted with some of the stuff I did in my desperation to hold onto someone who was really already done. 

God, wouldn't you give anything to be able to back up the trolley?

And what you said about OM fixing stuff at your place - this needs to go into the RED FLAG book. Always beware the handyman guy who can put up some dry wall or fix the plumbing (sts), of course always while you're at work.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> SS -
> 
> Same same. Looking back, I'm disgusted with some of the stuff I did in my desperation to hold onto someone who was really already done.
> 
> ...


*
*

This was after the fact; after he had moved in. There were a couple of things I procrastinated on due to working overtime on my start up and basically just being a lazy ******. That and everything is different in this country - the electrical systems, the heating systems, the building materials, the LANGUAGE  - and I just didn't have time for it. We spent 3 solid weeks redoing the place and were burnt out. Some minor stuff was left hanging.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Well, my one day of 'peace' in my mind is over. Yesterday was great, though. Normal people don't know lucky they've got it. I hope the feeling comes back as the medication accumulates in my body.

What's at the other end of this? A sense of high self-esteem and rewarding new relationships? I feel like the person I used to be is dead. The person I am now is just some sort of zombie going through the motions. 

I made a promise to D6 to never leave her. I have to remind myself of this every day.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Hi Zappy,

Your story has always made me shudder. You hang in there, and you will persevere. Crying for your unborn daughter making you a dweeb? Never in a million years, bud. 

I'm living in western europe at an undisclosed location.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Crying for your unborn daughter making you a dweeb? Never in a million years, bud.


I agree.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Where do I fit into all this. I don't think I was ever a "nice" guy. I know she even maintained her attraction for me up until the end. I do know that I am a fixer and did "take care" of her. Handled most of the load as far as being an adult and parent. 

I was in charge however. Man of the house. Not a nice guy and I still got the ole heave ho.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> Where do I fit into all this. I don't think I was ever a "nice" guy. I know she even maintained her attraction for me up until the end. I do know that I am a fixer and did "take care" of her. Handled most of the load as far as being an adult and parent.
> 
> I was in charge however. Man of the house. Not a nice guy and I still got the ole heave ho.


You also had some pretty strong chemicals thrown into the mix.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

zillard said:


> You also had some pretty strong chemicals thrown into the mix.


LOL...That was when the problems began. Forgot about that.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

zillard said:


> You also had some pretty strong chemicals thrown into the mix.


Yeah. Gut, you were dealing with forces beyond your control. She formed an addiction - this has nothing to do with you.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I'm kind of in an opposite case than you guys. My STBXW is in the position to be the better caregiver. When she was wayward and sneaking around, yeah it was me spending more time with the kids, but she has more time and resources now for them. She has her family here to help out and she and OM will have a much bigger place than mine (with a garden). In effect, she has "won". I have to work often while the kids are playing at the next room. I don't have an SO to help do chores, fix meals, or babysit. Even the 50/50 custody is a bit overwhelming at times. Especially with the depression I'm fighting. I don't feed them well the way I used to and they are in front of the TV much more. I just don't have the choice right now. They're great kids - I want to do more for them>


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

In the USA, what happens to the money you have before you are married, and where there is no pre-nuptial? Does the other spouse owe back half of whatever was used for community property?


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

mostly assets accumulated after the I do's


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Just checking in, SS, how you bearing up?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Hi BW,

Thanks for checking in. Long one below. 

The meds are helping smooth things in my head, but I think I need IC really badly. I'm still suffering from a lot of self-esteem issues. It's that vicious loop we get into. I don't know how to get out of it, frankly. How do you do it?

I sit here and think OM must a better lover, a better companion, a better everything or else she would not have left. When I read that most affairs fizzle out, I ask myself why hers didn't. 

And I blame myself for numerous things, including not being the breadwinner while here in her country. The whole financial provider thing is huge and I tended to ignore it thinking that I was the provider for a while, so what's the big deal? In my mind, it was just fair that she would pick up the duty for a while until my business got up and running (I didn't have a lot of other options here). I have to call BS on myself for this - it was naive to think she wouldn't resent me for it. I just thought she had enough faith in me that things would work out. Apparently not, and apparently her attraction to me decreased as a result. It seems shallow but what can I do? That's just nature. 

I don't know, I thought we were in a marriage and a partnership and that we could count on each other. We had kids, we had our health, we had fun things to do together, we still had good sex (or so it seemed to me), and we could count our blessings. 

Apparently there was stuff that simply was not being communicated (Sexual desires, personal needs, etc.). Was it just complacency and neglect? You start reading articles from Mens Health and Cosmo and whatnot and it feels like everyone else is putting more effort into their sex life or relationship that you are. That somehow.. again.. you failed. I feel like I wouldn't be here on TAM if I had not somehow screwed the pooch. I look back and think "Wow, my wife was spending an hour alone with a married male music teacher at night". Did I need to go check him out? I didn't think about it at the time. I have a feeling I will be paranoid and jealous in my next relationship.

I wish I could have busted up their affair like you did. Or that my wife had some addiction like Gut Punches' to partly blame it on (you know what I mean, GP), or that my wife was still trying to spend time as a fam like Soca's, or that I am feeling positive about myself like Zillard. 

I have people tell me 'F her! She's the one who cheated? She sucks! She's the loser, not you.' and all that stuff. Women friends always saying she's a fool and they'd be with me in a sec if they weren't married. That's fine and good, but I can't stand this being fired as a husband thing. Being replaced. Not coming out on top in any way, shape or form. I'm just looking for some light at the end of the tunnel. Something to feel confident about. I just want to know that I was a good husband, a great lover, a good man and be done with it. I felt I was those things but it requires external validation.

Whew.. that's what I've ben walking around with lately. Same old stuff, I guess. The procedural stuff with the divorce is going fine. I am on as good as terms as I want to be with my wife. She's cordial, civil, etc. It's almost worse. I want her to be some BPD demon or something so I can feel better about losing her. Get what I mean?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

SS. Sounds like you want to pass some blame onto her but emotionally you are shouldering it all.

That feeling that the blame is all yours is horrible. In my case it wasnt even far from tje truth. Like you I thought is Mrs.C this or that? To try and justify it away. Unlike you I dont even have the cheating to get angry about.

You have that. Use it. She failed her vows and went outside the marriage. She was weak and still is. She is running. Running as fast as she can from herself. That is likely why the affair hadnt fizzled out. She needs someone there to avoid looking at herself.

Let her go.

Way I have been dealing with it is to try and seperate the old me that "failed" from the new me that will succeed. Examine where you went wrong and how you could be the best you possible. Get to work on it. Its hard. Really hard when you have so long depended on external motivation (doing it for her or the kids) but have to start doing it just for you.

That really is the only way.

Let her go and embrace yourself instead.

Are you overplaying the language thing? You didnt say where in W.Europe you are but many Europeans speak very good English and thers are many brits scattered around Europe too. Have you considered maybe looking for groups for the natives learning english? You could maybe help them and at same time they help you with thier language?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

I read through this post a couple of times. I can tell you this - I have experienced and am still dealing with EXACTLY the same issues as you. The feelings of being replaced, the shock of the betrayal, the depths of despair over her with another man. It is without a doubt the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life without exception. 

I am seeing an IC and I guess it helps some but I am absolutely obsessed with it, the sense of loss, the injustice, the ANGER. I hear the same stuff, hey WS is a fool, an idiot, she'll regret this and come crawling back. But it doesn't make me feel any better. And for me, like soca, the worst part is the breakup of my family. And her indifference to that. 

KC is right when he says to let her go. To embrace yourself. That's the best I can hope for too. And I wish you hadn't shared that this guy was a freaking music teacher, now I really will have to fly over there and just beat the ever-living piss out of him, just on general principle.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Thanks guys.

KC, I hear you but it feels like she was running towards something. The thrill of a new man, a new life, a possible career in music. We'll see if it lasts. All I know is it makes me feel like garbage - makes me doubt a lot of things I held true. 

The country I live in the people don't speak English that well. I'm in Ireland. Just kidding. 

BW, I know you're feeling it too. My DDay was in August 2012 so I hope you move along faster than I did! 

Yeah, this guy could use a second arse kicking so come on over anytime and kick him in the bass clef. It's not his first affair while as a married man, and it's not his first affair with a married woman. And he married one of his music students (he teaches private lessons, .. but of course). He met her when he was 21 and she was 14 so kind of weird to me. 

I think WS and OM will be looking over their shoulders later on once the love hormones die down some and little relationship frustrations start. I wonder if she'll tell him all that "Love is life, life is love, and I love to love" crapola she told me. 

Yes, let her go. But let "it" go. The idea of an intact family. I think a lot of the guys on here on TAM are family men. It's hard for us. Sh1t, I can't even go on Facebook anymore and see all those family pics people post. It hurts too much. 

Keep on keepin' on...


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Kick him in the bass clef, I like that. 

And you're right, of course they'll start having their own issues sooner or later. He leaves the toilet seat up. She snores. He takes a liking to another young student. She decides things with you were pretty good after all. But you've taken up with a retired porn star.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

So how do you deal with the mind movies, BW?

Do you feel like being cheated on invalidates what you had before?


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS -

To be perfectly honest, I DONT deal with the mind moves. There arent enough anti-depressants or self-help books or IC sessions that are going to cure me of it. I know that one day the pain will ease somewhat. But no time soon.

And yes, I believe the cheating invalidates everything. Had it been a drunken one-night stand in an EconoLodge, I could probably come to terms with it better. But now every email from her, every time I see her, all I can think about is that sleazy, brown teeth douche touching her. 

I honestly don't see how people get past the infidelity - they are better men than me. I know I never will.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

If you cant get past it when not with her, you wouldnt get past it with her.

Another reason to let go. You wont find peace till you allow yourself to at least try.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

BW, thanks for your honesty. I see we are in the same boat. 

KC - I would like to agree with you but my rational mind won't let me. I've always felt if I'd had a chance to de-tox her of the OM, we might have worked this out through some sustained therapy, a good look at ourselves and some real time together. The thing is, I had a chance and I didn't put all my power into it. She came back briefly 3 weeks after D-Day ("to do the right thing"), and we had a great weekend together. However, her "fix" on OM was strong and she was battling withdrawals. I didn't even show her literature such as "Surviving an Affair" which explains all that. I'm not sure i had that book at the time but I did have "Not Just Friends". I wanted to take it slow, not push her - I know she should have been doing the heavy lifting but I feel it was my one chance to break through the fog and I kind of blew it. Honestly, we should have just packed our bags and gone a three week vacation. 

I really think affairs are like addictions and skew rational thinking. She said to me "I can't not ever see him again!" with a crazy look in here eye. Is that love or an addiction speaking? I needed to do some serious deprogramming and I let the opp slip out of my hands. I would have stayed with her even if it meant hearing some thing I didn't want to hear. Our relationship WAS worth it; I see her as selfish but also a victim of circumstances. She really was riding a unicorn and jumping rainbows (jesus, she even told me once "a princess kisses a frog and he turns into a prince" - what is she, 12?) and I became the wicked dungeon keeper, trying to keep her from riding into the sunset. That is not love, that is WHACKED. 

Meanwhile D6 drew me a picture yesterday. 5 names on top - Me, WW, D6, D3 and OM. Columns of hearts for the four of us family and a column of broken hearts for OM. 

If we'd had a sh1tty marriage, I woudn't be here wrangling about it. But we didn't. She has made a huge mistake. That's why I saw affairs are addictions and are very destructive.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I mean, essentially the WS is choosing his/herself and AP over the BS and the children. I know Conrad would argue that a WW could choose an OM whom she thinks would be a good provider so therefore the welfare argument is negated. But the destruction of the family nucleus? I suppose they are prepared to redefine their concept of family. Basically, they think they can't live a life w/out the AP. Love or addiction? And me the BS feels like I couldn't live a life without the WW. Love or addiction?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

In light of my recent experiences. Addiction.

I still feel the same about Mrs.C as before but starting to lose the need feeling. Its beenslow going but I have the last couple days been able to relax around her. I am just being myself and not worrying of affects on "our" future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rsersen (Jan 30, 2013)

Bullwinkle said:


> SS -
> 
> To be perfectly honest, I DONT deal with the mind moves. There arent enough anti-depressants or self-help books or IC sessions that are going to cure me of it. I know that one day the pain will ease somewhat. But no time soon.
> 
> ...


Can't say I'm dealing with them too well myself. I think you're right - nothing can really heal it but time. Short term, I just keep trying to block them out when they start to pop up.

The worst part is, these are just all in my imagination - I couldn't imagine being one of those BS's who had to plant a VAR or a spy cam, and actually have to hear it or see it happening. How they deal with that, I have no idea. I can only imagine that having the sounds/images burned in your brain is much more traumatic.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

When I first joined TAM, one of my favorite posters was a gentleman named Morituri.

Now, get this.

He somehow got a videotape of his wife hanging from the chandeliers with posOM.

Talk about a devastating discovery.

And, the mind movies simply would not stop. I mean, he was an eyewitness.

His therapist really helped him. When the mind movies would start up, he self-regulated by visualizing them dressed up as clowns.

It really took the edge off for him and helped him heal.


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## All of a sudden (Jan 24, 2013)

My husband iis back annd its not really better. I still have mind movies and if i ask a question, he tells me to get the hell over it. All the things he said would change haven't and im starting to believe it would of been less hurtful, but hurtfull as hell, if he had just stayed gone. I feel im back at ground zero and if this goes to hell in a handbasket, I will have to start all over again. Probably will hurt worse. When i start thinking about his sex with ow, i grab a book or turn on the tv or physically make my mind think of something else. I hate these images, but im starting to hate him too!( lots more reasons but not for this thhread) i just wish there was an easy fix , but there's not. 

May the saddest day of your future be no worst than the happiest day of your past.- old Irish proverb.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

"Get the hell over it" Really? I have no words.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

So here's something that I've been holding back from sharing. But maybe it will help you understand my sense of shame. 

When my wife first told me about the affair, she trickled truthed me into thinking it was ONS kind of thing with a stranger. I was very angry, then hurt, then confused, then destabilised. When I pried the real truth out of her a week later, I refused to let the marriage fail. (She had told me she was in love with OM.) I demanded we work it out and that I meet OM. I told her I wouldn't do anything violent. To his credit, he met me. I remained civil, even 'friendly'. (Puke). This was before I had read TAM accounts and understood how deviant affairs really are. I thought it all was a 'mistake' made my two grown adults who would see the error of their ways. I've mentioned this before. 

But here's the part that kills me. I gave him pics of our kids and I got teary-eyed when I did it. He actually flinched and looked down, I think it caused him pain, and I thought the connection had been made, the message sent. I told her to go back to his wife, or find a new one but not pursue mine. I even shook his hand. (Puke 2)

It gets worse! I wrote two emails to him later on when I was devastated. I didn't plead with him, I rather just made the case that WW was love of my life, that I was the one to take care of her and our family, I knew her FOO history, the reasons why she might have had an affair. I know, I can't believe I wrote all this stuff to him. Where were my senses? I was a puddle on the floor at this point, I think. At any rate, my wife found out and wrote us both. I apologise - ha! I apologized to HIM - for writing and basically said okay well my wife is going to make this decision, she's going to drive us crazy, we'll see where this will take us. I gave all my power to my wife and him. Thinking about it disgusts me. Even he said I could contact him anytime. Like we were all friends now! I think he and I were both in shock, my wife seemed to have her hands on the steering wheel. I look back at this time period and shake my head. Sometime at I can't look my kids in the eye. It got even sissier than that.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

For someone to leave a loving family situation is pure selfishness, and IMO, they have a personality disorder, a missing piece. 

My D was final 2/26, but she was still texting me about good memories from the past, sending soup home with my daughter when I was sick, stuff like that. But... still living with POSOM.

Every time there was that type of contact, it set me back, rekindled something. This past weekend, I realize that even though we're divorced, I'm still in a form of limbo. It's irrational. I hate who she has become, what she did to me and our child. I could never R, but yet still the pull...

So, I have made the decision to go to absolute minimal contact, to never respond to any text that is not child realated. I took her name out of my phone. I am forcing myself to let go of the last 1% of "hope" that I had. I don't have the strength, and I'm using my anger to fuel the final step of detaching. 

As I and many others have said SS, there's no choice. Physically divorcing is one thing, but fully detaching is key for your own sanity.

Not that I'm ready, but I met a cute girl who is 20 years younger than I am (I look 10 yrs younger than I am, accident of birth I guess, so she doesn't know it's 20yrs) who was also cheated on and has been divorced for a while. We talked and there was a spark, felt some butterflies and it was invigorating. It gave me hope. I'm tired of letting the ex control me and even though I never wanted things to end this way, I'm thinking that falling in love again might be a lot of fun.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

MC99 - I'm with you all the way. I just briefly saw my STBX today and it was enough to get me down. I still find her so damn beautiful and lovely and cheery - why do they have to be so cheery? Sometimes it's almost like she is a child, like she doesn't understand the pain involved. For a couple of months now, I've been on very minimal contact with her. There have been slip-ups to be sure, conversations which never should have happened, but we're very much at the point where we don't talk at all unless it's about D or the kids. It's the only way to do it - else you will suffer. Getting soup from her? Dude, you're killing yourself. 

I know it's hard to get interested in other women when the love of your life has ditched your for some homewrecker, but see where it takes you.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_MC99 - I'm with you all the way. I just briefly saw my STBX today and it was enough to get me down. I still find her so damn beautiful and lovely and cheery - why do they have to be so cheery? Sometimes it's almost like she is a child, like she doesn't understand the pain involved. For a couple of months now, I've been on very minimal contact with her. There have been slip-ups to be sure, conversations which never should have happened, but we're very much at the point where we don't talk at all unless it's about D or the kids. It's the only way to do it - else you will suffer. Getting soup from her? Dude, you're killing yourself. 

I know it's hard to get interested in other women when the love of your life has ditched your for some homewrecker, but see where it takes you. _

Looks like you've got the idea. Detach, detach, detach. I close the curtains when she picks up my daughter, and park down the block when I pick her up so I don't by chance see her. And no more soup


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I've come to realize that I was suffering from "obsessive thinking". For months I was thinking minute by minute about the infidelity and separation. The anxiety was intense.. it had a grip on my mind .. I think I lost my mind at some point to be honest. I couldn't function in any normal manner. If anyone else is feeling this way, I highly recommend seeing a psychiatrist for medication. No one should have to suffer this way. Looking back I went through untold amounts of needless suffering. And I tell you it makes the 180 impossible when you are obsessing.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

There's got to be a better way to deal with the obsessive thoughts than drugs. Don't get me wrong, for some people they need them and they work. I'm just not one for drugs. I take enough for health reasons. If there's a better way please share.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I agree about the drugs, FF. I know they have helped millions of people but to me, it's a slippery slope. I'd be afraid that I'd never got off them. But, SS, you do sound better, stronger. Maybe it's just you and not the medication.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

For me, I really think it's the drugs that are helping. 

There are side effects, so you have to find the one which works best for you.

Remember that in my case I could not really function.. for *months* it seemed like. I was so distraught every freaking second of every minute of every day. That's not 'normal' break-up pain. I couldn't go shopping without breaking down, couldn't work well, couldn't make dinner for the kids. I was depressed, anxious, and angry as a result. Talking about the infidelity all the time. It was the only thing I talked about. Obsessive thinking about the "Why's" and "What if's" and about her instead of me. Suicidal thinking entered my head, and then we saw how my bottled up anger resulted in the V Day incident. I almost got in serious trouble with the law. I think if I'd been on meds this wouldn't have happened. Things would still suck but I would've been functional at least. I was not functional. I think if any psychiatrist had seen me they would've recommended immediately. If you feel like it takes all your strength to stay composed, then you may want to consider it.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Hey, this site has some good resources for couples dealing with infidelity or if you want to understand more about why it happens. Mainly geared towards women but overall good: Relationship Advice on Forgiving, Overcoming and Surviving Infidelity || GoAskSuzie.com | GoAskSuzie.com


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Drugs.

Oh I do so like mine.

Thing is, I am convinced they do very little without effort and desire from the one taking them. They can enable us to do what we need to do but they cannot do it for us.

They can open the door for us, but we have to take that step through.

I avoided AD's for years because of stigma and pride. Maybe my marriage have been saved if I just swallowed that pride. Maybe not. If I had this frame of mind back then though, I would have been much better equipped to resolve our issues.

Medication is like counselling and all the other stuff. They are tools. Look what is needed for the job at hand and make use of the tools as needed.

Not everyone needs meds but those who get into it deep like I did and SS did, they shouldn't let shame, pride or what others thing dissuade them. Nor should people just take them thinking they will be an easy answer to their problems.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I agree KC.

No shame in it. If you need it, you need it. 

I also agree it's one tool. I just know that talk therapy was not going to get me past the obsessive thinking.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Some jobs require every tool in the box. As long as it's the right tool at the right time.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

SS

You've come a long way. We are proud of your transformation. Looks like you have passed me up. As far as medications, my Dr. put me on a mild tranquilizer to keep me from being hospitalized. Sometimes the meds are necessary so we can function. Those people strong enough to function without them need I pat on the back. I wasn't one of them. I am doing my best to avoid anti-depressants.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-you are at base camp 3

air is a bit thin but the view is getting attractive

you are digging deep

the savage from within smells the challenge


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> SS
> 
> You've come a long way. We are proud of your transformation. Looks like you have passed me up. As far as medications, my Dr. put me on a mild tranquilizer to keep me from being hospitalized. Sometimes the meds are necessary so we can function. Those people strong enough to function without them need I pat on the back. I wasn't one of them. I am doing my best to avoid anti-depressants.


Just curious. When did he put you on it and for how long?

I was so bad I couldn't even get myself into the doctor. My one friend here lent me some sleeping pills and that was a godsend. I'd never been through an intense break-up before so I figured these feelings were normal. If I'd had an office job, they would have sent me to the doctor. I honestly don't know how I suffered that long.

To be honest, life is still really really difficult. Just not a living nightmare. I hope any lurker reading this will seek help.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I'm making some progress, but barely. 

I'm still trying to 'understand'. This is bad. I'm still wondering why aren't I the guy whose wife cheated and begged for mercy? I would love to be that guy. That guy doesn't know how good he's got it, LOL. In the end, I could deal with my wife falling crushing on someone and falling to temptation if she would just come to her senses and then dig deep to understand what was wrong in the relationship. Usually it's just boredom. Boredom causes problems -> affairs, drugs, risky behaviours. But boredom can be treated. 

In some way, I feel I'm above this. Like I'm too good a person and my kids are too awesome for this bullisht. And in a way my wife is too good for this. WAS too good for this. This is the cognitive dissonance.

I still think about her and OM and go "Really?". Is that love? Does she even know what love is? Did she do any reading on affairs, their causes, their patterns and realize anything about anything?

Sorry, just venting. Still lobbing snowballs from Base Camp 3.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

So it was you who threw it at my head you @#$%%^%$$$$$. Watch your back LOL


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

LOL - haha, sorry Chuck, was aiming for someone else


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Yeah.....ok....so you are telling me I was the only guy with a tank top on and carrying a glass of Scotch? BTW my Scotch bottle is low......ohhhh now I get it. Next fifth is on you. Oh I forgot, that hot brunette with cute butt.....she thought you were handsome with that southpaw throw.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

STBX calls today. Now with the meds, I'm able to engage her fully without feeling the crazymaking undertones. 

She and POSOM moved into a new place this weekend. I think it was a little weird for her. More permanent I suppose. 

I was thinking about attachment today. I can view her as a person leading her own life without me. I feel I will always have a place for her in my heart. Here's an exercise for you. Imagine everyone instantly disappeared from the Earth. Who do you think about first?

It's hard for me to think she would think about OM over me. How does an 8 year love get replaced by a 6 month "in love"? I just wish she had been able to understand the affair psychology - that she's like everyone else in that regard. It just seems 'special' but what about long term happiness? It's starting to hit now that she doesn't see her kids for a week straight. God, I wish I had gotten her into one of those emergency calls with an infidelity specialist when she came back to R. Someone who could help her see the light. I think part of her wanted to do it, but the addiction was too strong. It's not like she thought I was a bad man, she just couldn't pull herself away from the new dream.

Bleh.


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## rsersen (Jan 30, 2013)

> God, I wish I had gotten her into one of those emergency calls with an infidelity specialist when she came back to R. Someone who could help her see the light. I think part of her wanted to do it, but the addiction was too strong. It's not like she thought I was a bad man, she just couldn't pull herself away from the new dream.


Can't dwell on this. It's not your regret to carry. 

You talk about her addiction. Let's say she was a heroin addict, instead of an OM addict. You wanted her to get help, you tried to get her help - she went back to the needle anyway, and it wound up killing her. Would you beat yourself up for the rest of your life because you couldn't get through to her and make her see that she needed help? You can certainly be sad that she didn't get the help she needed, but why would you blame yourself? At the end of the day she's an adult, and these were her choices. 

The failed/false R is done and over with. There may be a day in the future when she's truly out of the fog, and ready to try it again. The questions are - what do you want to do if that day comes, and what are you doing for yourself in the meantime?


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Just curious. When did he put you on it and for how long?
> 
> I was so bad I couldn't even get myself into the doctor. My one friend here lent me some sleeping pills and that was a godsend. I'd never been through an intense break-up before so I figured these feelings were normal. If I'd had an office job, they would have sent me to the doctor. I honestly don't know how I suffered that long.
> 
> To be honest, life is still really really difficult. Just not a living nightmare. I hope any lurker reading this will seek help.



I was put on ativan immediately as my body was going into shock according to my doctor.

They are slowly weening me off of it. I use it before bed and that's it. Didn't even take it last night. It serves a purpose but definitely don' t want to get hooked. 

I know the suffering that's for sure. You know my situation. I am in limbo now. Not a fun place to be.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

staystrong said:


> STBX calls today. Now with the meds, I'm able to engage her fully without feeling the crazymaking undertones.
> 
> She and POSOM moved into a new place this weekend. I think it was a little weird for her. More permanent I suppose.
> 
> ...



I think of my kids. You need to change your focus.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Yeah. My first thoughts now are of my boys and I actively move my thoughts away from her or us thinking.

Paying attention to now, not wondering what if. Becoming aware of your thoughts before they turn into emotions.

You had anything along the lines of Cognitive Behavior Therapy or read books on those lines?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

_Receiving disturbing news such as the death of loved one
Being involved in a traumatic event such as a car accident, or being the victim of crime
Psychological shock can disrupt your life, leaving you engrossed and preoccupied with the event or news that caused the shock. The individual may also have difficulty coping with day to day functioning such as personal relationships and work.

In some cases, an individual starts to experience psychological shock symptoms after the event actually occurred. This is known as ‘delayed shock’. Delayed shock symptoms can occur within hours or in some cases years of a traumatic event.

If symptoms do not improve and continue to persist, leaving the individual unable to return to normal life, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) may have developed.

The individual with psychological shock symptoms may be affected in the following ways:

Intrusion - the individual fixates on the event and news by playing it over and over again in his or her mind
Avoidance – the individual withdraws from normal activities and may resort to alcohol and drugs to numb the pain
Increased arousal – the individual feels ill-tempered and angry_

That was me to a T.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Yo, SS. saw on earlier post of yours where you talked about boredom. I agree, it really can contribute to breakdowns in marriage. Boredom, complacency, taking each other for granted. 

I clearly remember my WS sitting around on a Saturday and saying, I'm so bored! And I'd say, okay, let's talk about it, ou wanna go see a movie or go downtown, whatever?

But it was always up to me to solve the problem, come up with ways to stave off the boredom. 

Guess I didn't succeed at it.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> I clearly remember my WS sitting around on a Saturday and saying, I'm so bored! And I'd say, okay, let's talk about it, ou wanna go see a movie or go downtown, whatever?
> 
> But it was always up to me to solve the problem, come up with ways to stave off the boredom.
> 
> Guess I didn't succeed at it.


Hi Bullwinkle - 

I don't think it the job of one spouse to alleviate the other spouse's boredom -- no way. Both spouses need their own (healthy) hobbies and interests as well as shared activities and interests. To me, it needs to be a mix of the two. It sounds like you did suggest things to do when she told you she was bored -- how is that not good enough? Plus, she could have joined a book club, done volunteer work, taken up knitting -- life is short, so there is no excuse for boredom, no sir!

Cheers, - A12


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Awakening2012 said:


> Hi Bullwinkle -
> 
> I don't think it the job of one spouse to alleviate the other spouse's boredom -- no way. Both spouses need their own (healthy) hobbies and interests as well as shared activities and interests. To me, it needs to be a mix of the two. It sounds like you did suggest things to do when she told you she was bored -- how is that not good enough? Plus, she could have joined a book club, done volunteer work, taken up knitting -- life is short, so there is no excuse for boredom, no sir!
> 
> Cheers, - A12


Personality disordered people fit in the category of "restless"


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Thanks, A12. Needed a sanity check. 

And I know it's 2013 and gender isn't suppose to enter into any of it, but gotta help me, what is this perpetual anger, no RAGE she seems robe overwhelmed with?


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi BW -

Can you clarify your question -- I want to be sure I understand, because this is very important. There ARE "gender" differences, I do believe -- that is to say, in every relationship, straight or gay, there needs to be one respected leader and one cherished follower. It is not a superior/inferior thing, and not rigid -- there can be some flexibility. But think about it -- in general, we need one Fred Astaire and one Ginger Rodgers. If we have two Freds, and both parters want to wear the pants, they will clash/power struggle. If both are Gingers, no chemistry -- two wallflowers. In this critical relationship dynamic, I believe he teachings of Pat Allen ("Staying Married and Loving It") have great value and relevance.

So are you saying where is her rage/anger? Or are you asking why are you so angry? If the latter, it is the natural feeling a mature, healthy masculine man will have when he has been kicked in the ballz 

It seems to me you are a healthy cherishing masculine man who has been disrespected and whose boundaries have been violated, and you are now taking appropriate corrective action.

Cheers, A12


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

A12, thanks for the kind words. I wasnt being very articulate.... What I should have said was, per the gender thing, is this something most women feel? This almost insane rage and perpetual nastiness? Of course it's stupid to generalize but every day I keep saying to myself, I'm the one in an awful studio, I'm the one denied access to D, I'm the one who was insulted, berated, cheated on. And every day I wasn't to scream from the highest mountain, "you got everything you wanted! Great house, beautiful daughter, fabulous job, working for ********* Irish toad. So why in the F are you so angry all the time?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Bullwinkle said:


> A12, thanks for the kind words. I wasnt being very articulate.... What I should have said was, per the gender thing, is this something most women feel? This almost insane rage and perpetual nastiness? Of course it's stupid to generalize but every day I keep saying to myself, I'm the one in an awful studio, I'm the one denied access to D, I'm the one who was insulted, berated, cheated on. And every day I wasn't to scream from the highest mountain, "you got everything you wanted! Great house, beautiful daughter, fabulous job, working for ********* Irish toad. So why in the F are you so angry all the time?


Because angry people are angry.

Changing their partners doesn't change that.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Agreed about restless people, Conrad.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I know angry people are angry but I just can't seal with it. It's just too much on top of everything else. If she were a man I would beat her senseless.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Bullwinkle said:


> I know angry people are angry but I just can't seal with it. It's just too much on top of everything else. If she were a man I would beat her senseless.


Do you think this is about you?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I've been reading the MMSL blog again and every time I do I get depressed, not inspired. If what Athol says is all true - and it seems like so much of it is - I just feel like a complete and utter chump-failure-loser. Especially because I look at my friends and peer group and none of their wives left them. And I know they weren't practicing game like it is espoused in MMSL. 

All of this stuff I read would have worked with my wife. And I think she would have rather wanted it / enjoyed it. I know I would have. It's days like this when I really look up at the sky and just say "F this sh!t". Just put me out my misery already. I missed a golden opportunity of a life time. A great marriage with the mother of my children. And why? Fear, lack of leadership, lack of understanding? I suppose. Someone wrote that a victim says "Why Me?" while a survivor says "Why not me? It could happen to anyone." I f'ing hate my life. Used to love it, now I hate it. What a fool I've been.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS -

At the risk of oversimplifying the issues - if reading it depresses you, stop reading the damned thing. 

I've been same as you, I read blogs and most of the threads here on TAM and I'm forever thinking, wow, if I'd known that, or if I hadn't of said that.... And yes, like you I've got friends who aren't practicing ANY of this stuff and their wives not only haven't left, but actually seem happy. 

Also like you, i now look back and think of a million things I did wrong. But I also keep fixed in my mind what ultimately happened - how she checked out, let a stranger in, broke up her family. 

Bottom line, SS, while the purpose of this whole TAM exercise is partly the self-introspection, it also HAS to be about you realizing its not all your fault, that you might have done everything PERFECTLY and still she might have left. 

You didn't deserve this. But you will survive this and thrive.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Sometimes I have to hit rock bottom again before I again bounce back up. All my happiness exists in the future, but the later I start the later it's going to take to get me there.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I know. And you will.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

The key is to make sure you bounce back up. You're happiness is In your future....I like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Sometimes I have to hit rock bottom again before I again bounce back up. All my happiness exists in the future, but the later I start the later it's going to take to get me there.


Thats a great way to look at it. Start now. 

The things you read need to be about need to be looked at as how you *will* succeed not how you did fail.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

What's the word, SS? Hope you're feeling better....


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Worse than ever.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Oh man, get venting. Let it out.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Sorry to hear it. Wish there was something I could say to make you feel better. 

I'm the same way. Can't sleep. Can't eat. Think about little else. But you have to stay strong, if only to spite her.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I just swing from external to internal directional anger. 

Some days (many days) I would just like to kill myself. God, mornings are hard. Some days I would like to kill her. Or him. Just so that she would suffer. It's all a warped fantasy, but I'm also grateful they don't have guns in this country. That's how damaged I am.

I've never been anywhere close to this on the depression/anger/hurt scale in my entire life. I was able to mend things in my life through communication and action. Both have fallen flat here. It's out of my control. 

I have some distractions but they are only that.. distractions. 

I miss my children greatly when they are not here.  This may be the hardest part of all. 

My friend here ordered me to visit the capitol city tomorrow and I promised him I would. If only to throw myself into a different environment for a bit of time. I desperately need s social network in this country. I'm sure a fine-figured lady would help me take my mind off things, if only temporarily.

Funny how perspective works. My married friend wants to live vicariously through me and my new "single life". I'd trade places with him in a heartbeat.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Grass is always greener, blah blah blah

Yes, SS a change of venue for a while may break the funk you're in. 

You're not boozing, are you? I was very bad with it for a while.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

SS, are you keeping contact with her to an absolute minimum? Only the essentials regarding child issues and D?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Not boozing and very much in NC.

Considering putting the two of them on Cheaterville. It's so not my style but it would give me some satisfaction. Especially if I put her email address on their for guys to contact her at.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

You should be angry with yourself for not already having done it. 

As you, this is the kind of stuff that helps me get up every morning. Petty, vindictive things.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Did you do it?

I wanted to make it through the divorce first. 

I drafted the the copy for their Cheaterville pages today. It's funny, I know she can be a wonderful person but on paper she is real cheater. So is he.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

You know what Bullwinkle? I know it's vindictive but at the same time it's some payback. Because otherwise people will just go galavanting through life being selfish and entitled. At least Cheaterville allows us to put those people in their place a bit. We didn't cheat, they did. If we want society to value marriage and fidelity, then yeah there is a bit of a Scarlet Letter treatment going on here. Because look at the wake of destruction this left for people like you and I. They didn't try to work out their issues, those cowards. And their infidelity makes the already unpleasant process of divorce much less pleasant. It makes child exchanges awkward and full of undertones. It make long term co-parenting ominous. So F those people - I want anyone doing a search for their name to see the Cheaterville ranking way on up there! This is my way of saying, hey you F'ed over the wrong person.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Wow, I can't believe my TAM experience is already being put to the test. I'm trying help my buddy stay cool, calm and collected and figure out his marriage. He thinks his problem is his MIL, but i think it's his wife. Started a thread here if you can help w/ the monitoring side of things. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-action-needed-friends-wife-may-cheating.html


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Morning, SS. Is your bud's MIL single (widowed, divorced)?

My recent experience with my crazy WS's MIL showed me how incredibly conniving and mean-spirited a MIL can be, particularly when they have their own agendas, such as wanting their daughter and granddaughter to come live with them. 

And some women are more influenced by their mothers than others. My sister stopped listening to my mother when she was around 12. On the other hand, my WS would drink the purple Kool-Aid and listen to her mother spellbound about howcBullwinkle was the Devil Incarnate.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Hey BW,

My friend's inlaws are married, but MIL is in their business all the time. She sounds like an intrusive yapper type. 

The story is weird with the family. They seem to hate my buddy and there's no clear reason why. He's foreign, perhaps? He thanked them at the wedding and they just sort of turned their backs on him. His wife's sister said she'd castrate him! I've never heard anything so strange. The wife just seems to write it off as weird but does nothing about it. She sides with her family. It sounds really F'ing unhealthy.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

BW, you never answered about Cheaterville. Are you entertaining the idea?


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

Yes, sorry, I am considering the Cheaterville thing. For about ten different reasons, but primarily out of pure vindictiveness. I really can't think of a reason not to do it. 

You might be right about your bud being foreign. My wife's parents and other in-laws are forever commenting on my being American and how we Americans are different culturally, blah blah blah. FIL will get drunk and start with the line, "You know what's wrong with your country?". To me, that is so freaking rude. In any event, your bud's wife should take his side.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Amen on both counts.

It's annoying for someone from another country to bash your culture, unless you are happily agreeing with them. I think my buddy's family may be slightly racist or something. He's partly Spanish and the country he is in is known for not being kind to darker skinned people. And he's not that dark. 

You know, writing and re-writing my CV draft (haha, it is kind of like a resume .. of her infidelity!) helped me understand what I'm really dealing with. Not that my wife's promiscuous per se, but she does have a steady history of infidelity and ending relationships that way. Two marriages this way and with some smaller cheating before the exit affair. 

I've decided to do it because I've endured a lot of humiliation as a result of her cheating. I don't consider it vindictiveness anymore - I consider it justice. Let her see herself in the public forum unstripped. All I am doing is making statements of facts, not sarcastic comments or anything like that. I would never out the sexual history of someone I loved if they had respected me during a break-up or had tried to reconcile. Or if they had communicated what they needed and I just didn't deliver. But that's not what happened. I think I will rather enjoy putting her and OM on CV. Fortunately I can use her maiden and still get good results. I don't want to stain my kid's names. 

Never in a million years would I have thought I'd be here doing this kind of thing.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

You are obviously a bright guy, that was an extremely well thought out reasoning for feeling the way you feel and for pursuing thi avenue. You're right, come to think of it, you're not just being petty or vindictive. And you're right to use her maiden name, protect your kids 

I feel the same way. If the marriage was that bad, we could have tried harder to fix it. Barring that, we eventually walk away with no bad blood. But the way I've been humiliated and disrespected, I really don't see myself EVER getting past it.


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## hard2function (Jan 17, 2013)

staystrong said:


> I've been reading the MMSL blog again and every time I do I get depressed, not inspired. If what Athol says is all true - and it seems like so much of it is - I just feel like a complete and utter chump-failure-loser. Especially because I look at my friends and peer group and none of their wives left them. And I know they weren't practicing game like it is espoused in MMSL.
> 
> All of this stuff I read would have worked with my wife. And I think she would have rather wanted it / enjoyed it. I know I would have. It's days like this when I really look up at the sky and just say "F this sh!t". Just put me out my misery already. I missed a golden opportunity of a life time. A great marriage with the mother of my children. And why? Fear, lack of leadership, lack of understanding? I suppose. Someone wrote that a victim says "Why Me?" while a survivor says "Why not me? It could happen to anyone." I f'ing hate my life. Used to love it, now I hate it. What a fool I've been.


^^^Exactly how I feel^^^
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

None of their wives have left them - yet.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

That's true Conrad. My story is completely different - I sort of hit the ground with a 'thud'. And before I had such a great place as TAM. 

For the obvious reasons, I am waiting for the divorce to be final to serve my cold dish of revenge. 

I assume that she will freak out and threaten to press charges for the V-Day incident (she has up to three years to do this, apparently). My counter strategy is that I own the domain and am the webmaster of her professional website (basically, MrsStayStrong.com). I'm sure she would not appreciate to hear that her website could be redirected to the CV page. That wouldn't be good for bidness.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

During divorce, be careful. Many places have statutes about harassing your spouse during the proceedings. CV could be seen as harassment.

After divorce, what do you hope to accomplish? Will it make you feel better? Will it hurt your co-parenting relationship?

For me the answers to these were no and yes. I did put up posOM during the divorce but recognized that I did it solely out of spite. So I removed it. I should have done it earlier when she was still here.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Mind you, I am not cautioning against exposure. Just method and timing.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Too late to do it retro-actively. 

It will be after divorce. 

*After divorce, what do you hope to accomplish? *
Public humiliation of him and her. 

I want to take her down a notch or two. She's so excited to be starting her music career with POSOM and I want to basically say FU by tainting her stage name from the very beginning. I want her to know that every time she sees someone about music she'll have to wonder if that person saw the CV listing when they did a Google search for her name. This gives me pleasure to think about be cause she is so conscious of her public image. This is my FU which pays dividends over time. 

*Will it make you feel better?* 
Yes. If it doesn't, I can always remove the listing. 

*Will it hurt your co-parenting relationship?*
Yes, but she'll have to deal with it and keep being a co-parent.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

I've been tempted along these lines as well...STBX still has his pay slips delivered here (along with all his other mail) and is now using that as justification to do taxes together (they think I still live there") so I'm tempted to send his pay stub back with a letter to his employer saying "STBX does not live here anymore and hasn't since november. He has walked out on his wife and D and he moved in with XX also an employee with your company. Since I and his D have no idea where he is living and you will have her address in your personnel records, can you kindly forward his pay stub to the correct address. Thank you".

Some days I wish I had the guts.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

familyfirst09 said:


> I've been tempted along these lines as well...STBX still has his pay slips delivered here (along with all his other mail) and is now using that as justification to do taxes together (they think I still live there") so I'm tempted to send his pay stub back with a letter to his employer saying "STBX does not live here anymore and hasn't since november. He has walked out on his wife and D and he moved in with XX also an employee with your company. Since I and his D have no idea where he is living and you will have her address in your personnel records, can you kindly forward his pay stub to the correct address. Thank you".
> 
> Some days I wish I had the guts.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




If you're going to divorce, you should consult a lawyer about workplace exposure. If he loses his job, that could affect your monetary support levels. 

If you want to expose for the purpose of breaking up the affair, then by all means contact the workplace. But do it directly. Contact the HR with a well-written FACTUAL letter which is informative but also pulls at the heart strings. If they're corporate, they will make their determination based on pre-existing fraternisation policies.

My personal viewpoint is that it's better to blow a wide hole through the affair.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

I doubt I'd ever do it...its just one of my revenge fantasies 
Some days tho....
And there's no spousal support, just child support. And I can live without it just fine if need be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

FF09, may your fantasies become reality. 

i.e.

Let that turkey have it

Show him what happens when he betrays his family. Time to heap some scorn and shame upon this man and burst his reign of terror on you and your DD. 

If it's only a matter of guts, we'll lend you ours


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Is there any template exposure letters on this site anywhere....again don't have the guts but as time goes on.... He's had no issue bashing me to friends and family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rsersen (Jan 30, 2013)

familyfirst09 said:


> Is there any template exposure letters on this site anywhere....again don't have the guts but as time goes on.... He's had no issue bashing me to friends and family.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here's what I wrote in mine, if you can get any use out of it, go ahead.



> Dear family, friends and acquaintances. I'm writing to inform everyone that my wife and I will be getting a divorce. While there are multiple reasons for this, I have, over time, discovered that my wife has been involved in an ongoing emotional/physical affair with a man claimed to be "just a friend" over the last several months.
> 
> As a trusting husband, It did not occur to me that a "girls night out" would cause so much trouble. I did not question her activities and expected her to respect myself and the marriage as a wife or husband should.
> 
> ...


I then listed all my evidence - photos, emails, text logs, etc. The entire document was several pages long, but I figured as long as people read the first part, it was up to them whether or not they wanted to see all the gory details. I then sent it to both of our families and some mutual friends.

I may do something similar on Cheaterville once my divorce is final. I haven't really thought about it before now...but why the hell not?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

o Whom It May Concern:

This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics. 

WS and WS are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship. 

If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Wow, that's good....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

I love it!

Do you have a copy of the company's Code of Conduct?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I've decided to give myself a deadline to be feel better. I've been doing a lot of ruminating and I don't think I can 'get over' the failures of the past 2 years. By that I am referring to my risky decision to start up my own business, my inability to be the Provider for the 1.5 years during start-up, my ignorance in maintaining my sex rank and body agenda (to use MMSL terms), my naivete in mate guarding (another term), my failure to discover the affair, my failure to adequately bust up the affair and be the stronger male presence she'd gravitate towards, my lack of exposure and doormat behaviour (puke), my failure to do the 180, my failure to seek medical treatment which would have helped me and not kept me away from my daughters, and the list goes on. The captain has to take some responsibility, and the captain goes down with the ship. 

I think this might be my destiny - a stopping point at this point in my life - and I just need to accept that. If what I had with my wife was not love enough, then I don't know what it is. I can't take that she loves someone else more than me, that she 'replaced' me, that she horndog cheated on me, and that she barely gave R a chance. (And that I wasn't strong enough during R). I don't think I can give my kids a good life; I don't know if I am figure they need to have. A tattered, broken shipwreck of a man. I thought I fought hard but I did not fight smart. I would have done anything for my wife and family, and now I can do no thing. I'm not looking to be talked off the precipice tonight or anything like that. I'm just stating that this is the strongest undercurrent in my life right now, and it feels like I am being carried out to sea. It's too late in life to learn these kinds of relationship lessons. I f'ed up the Big One, the only that matters. And now I just want peace. Stillness. Stoppage of movement. 

Anyhow, thanks for being on my thread. It's a bit dark over here.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

SS, you can get over this. Take it from me. I made every mistake in which you speak of. Sex Rank went down to zilch, I devalued myself, I did the pleading and explaining... 

I am learning and will continue to learn. Thats what you need to do. You didn't mess up the "big one". Their will be a better "one" because it will involve a better you if you can get through this and improve.

Don't give yourself a deadline. It doesn't work that way. Don't put pressure on it. Don't resist the hurt or the pain. Let it pass.

Your spouse is a dime a dozen. Your failed marriage doesn't define you or the rest of your life.

Get it together man.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Had you done everything "perfectly" she still most likely would have done what she did. It's a pattern for her. She's flawed. She will eventually tire of the POSOM and rip him apart too. 

Don't blame yourself, she had other options and chose the worst one. You've learned a lot going through this, what to look for and how to be in your next relationship if you choose to have one.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

This is the only place I dare to talk about it now, and even then I don't want to (just feel I should in order to give my kids a fair chance). I mentioned my fears once to friends and that caused a stir so I don't do it again. 

I tend to agree with Athol Kay's claim:
*So almost always, the critical error that starts the real relationship momentum downwards, is the husband’s.*

From Captain and First Officer | Married Man Sex Life

Deadlines at least give me a point to fix on. I've doing a lot of reading on suicide and it doesn't seem easy to do it right. I always figured it was pretty easy but there are risks to it. That's why I decided I would choose a mountain cliff or large structure with a sheer drop. If you drink enough alcohol you can will yourself over the edge. And then there's no turning back. Conrad could probably tell me some chemical combination to take, but I doubt he will. 

I don't think I needed to do things "perfectly", just "sufficiently". But look around you, Maincourse, so many people cheat. Is 50% of the population 'flawed', or is just our human nature? The BS is 'flawed' at times too, we must take our blames. For some of us, if we'd had our act together then our WS's would have rebuffed OM/OW's advances.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

"I tend to agree with Athol Kay's claim: So almost always, the critical error that starts the real relationship momentum downwards, is the husband’s."

I believe this as well. It all starts and ends with us. Reason why, I will never fail at this again... and neither will you if you Stay The Course of progression.

Be a leader for youself and your children. After that, the skies the limit.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS, you're killing me. 

RG is right - you can't set some arbitrary deadline, WTF? 

Art the risk of oversimplifying this, let me be blunt - 

Of course you made mistakes. Of course you F""ed up. Who on here on TAM, who, anywhere, hasn't? Why do you unfailingly blame yourself for everything? That if you'd followed one self-help book's advice, you wouldn't be in this mess? Maincourse was, right, you could have done EVERYTHING perfectly, and still she might have left, no, probably would have left. 

So here's the thing - I'll save all the psycho-babble and proseletising for those much better at it than me:

Find the fight deep within yourself to show your wife and her music teacher BF that you will not only survive, but that you will thrive. Get up every morning and put your pants on and carry on just to spite them and show the world just how strong you really are. You are a man, a stong man, they can all kiss your rosy red azz! You would actually think about hurting yourself over a woman that has so little regard for you, her family, your life together? If you suff it, then she really WILL have won! You wanna give that POS that ultimate satisfaction?

Now stop reading crap and carry on.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Everyone's situation is different.

If I need to end the pain, I will end the pain.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I tend to agree with Athol Kay's claim:
> *So almost always, the critical error that starts the real relationship momentum downwards, is the husband’s.*
> 
> From Captain and First Officer | Married Man Sex Life


So what? Does this mean you are to blame for her actions after that downward momentum began?

Absolutely not! You are responsible for your actions alone. The affair belongs to her, not you. Downward momentum can be turned around. But not with a spouse who is not committed and dedicated. 

Your spouse was neither. That speaks volumes about her. 

What you do now speaks volumes about you. Are you going to let her pull you under or will you let go of the rope?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Everyone's situation is different.
> 
> If I need to end the pain, I will end the pain.


Haven't we been here before SS? 

You have been doing much better, I mean look at some of the comments you have made for people. You are worth so much more the you give yourself credit for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rsersen (Jan 30, 2013)

> I can't take that she loves someone else more than me


She doesn't. She doesn't know what that emotion is. She may have some kind of puppy love infatuation with this guy, and think she loves him more than anyone else before - but didn't she say that to her first husband, and you after him? And she'll chew this guy and spit him out the same way. You know that. She's not capable of the mature, lasting kind of love that a good spouse should be. She's a deeply flawed woman. She's not worth it.

You can't give yourself a deadline for this. It's a process, with ups and downs. Today just happens to be a bad day for you. Let it pass, and tomorrow will be a new day.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Yes, the 50% or whatever who cheat are flawed. They're cowards and weak. They could have sat us down, looked us in the eye and told us they were not happy, if this or that doesn't change I'm filing for divorce and when it's final, I will date people. Or, if they do not want to work at it, just divorce us.

But they don't do that. They want a soft landing so they have an exit affair, or they try to conceal and eat cake. Cowards, liars, vow breakers. You weren't perfect and maybe you were ignorant of these "games" that we men are supposed to play to keep our wives interested in us. That's bull****. There are many, many women who would love to be with a guy exactly like you exactly the way you are, and they would appreciate and love you without you having to implement these strategies like Athol Kays'.

I wasn't perfect, made plenty of mistakes (as did she) but I worked every day for 18 years, provided for her, made the major decisions, stayed in shape, took care of the house and yard, was affectionate and loved her. If she doesn't want me, oh well, good luck. I picked wrong. I see her for what she is, what "strategies" did she implement to keep me interested? None. She checked out, so good riddance I'll either be happy alone or find a woman with some morals who respects marriage vows and won't bail when things get tough but will hang in and work instead of bailing.

SS, get through this, there's a beautiful woman out there for you, and you have those beautiful kids to raise and guide them to into being well adjusted adults who will look back and say "dad was our rock, he went through h*ll but was always there for us where would we be without him?" 

I understand wanting to stop feeling the pain, but just push through it each day. Time, time and more time, but you'll heal.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Meditating on your points.

I'm a little worried about my soul. As in what would happen to it if indeed I did do it. I could see where a soul might be punished. Maybe getting a little too philosophical here. 

The survival reflex is quite strong, but sometimes we sink into the lowest of lows, and its the umpteenth time we've been there. So yes, KC, we have been here before. That's sort of the drag. It's like when you flush a toilet and the swirl starts out going round and round and gets closer and closer together and then woomp it's gone. It's depressing to talk this way. I'm depressing myself even.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Meditating on your points.
> 
> I'm a little worried about my soul. As in what would happen to it if indeed I did do it. I could see where a soul might be punished. Maybe getting a little too philosophical here.
> 
> The survival reflex is quite strong, but sometimes we sink into the lowest of lows, and its the umpteenth time we've been there. So yes, KC, we have been here before. That's sort of the drag. It's like when you flush a toilet and the swirl starts out going round and round and gets closer and closer together and then woomp it's gone. It's depressing to talk this way. I'm depressing myself even.


Those "woomps" will get you every time


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Perhaps these are issues I can't work out on the forum and are better reserved for IC.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

SS, I feel your pain.i have been there on the brink, but it's only pain. Yes it seems overwhelming in the moment, but for me just distracting myself helped, anything, tv, exercise (thisis a good one), films, friends, your kids, anything. Are you on anti-depressants? I see you're in IC, you need to tell your counsellor all this stuff. But keep posting here, we're here to listen. You must not keep blaming yourself. Sounds like you are going over this over and over. Stop!!! Stop thinking so much, in fact stop thinking, listen and notice what's around you, get outside every day, just breathe and notice. Someone wise once told me just because you think it, doesn't mean it's true. Thoughts are just thoughts, they don't mean anything in themselves, also if you allow these thoughts to take up residence, then they influence your feelings. 

Look,I've looked at all the stuff you're talking about, and there are so many risks. Pain is pain, you need to feel it and live with it, and let it pass. And it will. Everyone says tomorrow is another day, sounds trite doesn't it? But it's true. Begin to notice the times of day when it's worse for you, for me it was evenings, but I bet you have a pattern too. Those are the times you have to distract, make plans, get out of the house. 

Sorry this is long. SS, stay. The course. Pm me if you want.im on your side and so is everyone here.xox


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Thank you Chopsy. That's good advice. 

For me it's the mornings. And the night. And sometimes during the day. 

Yes, the sense of shame and failure is huge and it slows my healing down.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Morning, SS. 

Not to be at all self-serving but if anything should happen to you, who's gonna remind me about OM with his devilish grin as he's in the saddle, so to speak. Who's gonna egg me on for a glorious, vengeful end to my own crisis?

So buck up. I need you around, you selfish git.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Haha, I could never go before reaching the exciting conclusion of your story. 

It's total, wallowing selfishness. This I won't argue. But deep pain, as you know. There's no pretense on the forum.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Fair enough, SS. And agree with you about the pain. I'd gladly pound my own genitalia with a meat mallet in exchange. 

And I promise to drag out my own melodrama if only to keep you from going room temperature.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Chopsy I can not like that enough. 
SS if I had not hit the roller coaster twice before, I would most likely have suffered worse. Having went through it before helps but in addition...makes no sense. Somewhat like....hit yourself in the head with a bat a few times. So when you do it tomorrow it will not hurt as much. It is better to accept than understand in matters of the heart. You cope and grieve....then soldier forward. I know that is not very Robert Frost but in the entire process....it does provide a better final result. No one is promised forever, just the same, no one is guaranteed the feelings will not return. Human behaviour is based from emotion.....and fear.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

"It is better to accept than understand in matters of the heart."

Sage words. 


The kids and my status as a foreigner here are the monkey wrench. You need to have a much better f'ing explanation than "it just happened", "I fell in lurve" and "Everyone deserves to be happy". Because to me that means what we had was a sham.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad, what's your take on posting on Cheaterville? Is it vindictive, in your opinion? In a way it feels so right (payback for the pain she caused; for all those nights she was with him and thinking she's getting away with it) but then it feels so wrong (shaming someone I used to love; could make me look bad).


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> what's your take on posting on Cheaterville? Is it vindictive, in your opinion? In a way it feels so right (payback for the pain she caused; for all those nights she was with him and thinking she's getting away with it) but then it feels so wrong (shaming someone I used to love; could make me look bad).


You answered your own question earlier.



staystrong said:


> *After divorce, what do you hope to accomplish? *
> Public humiliation of him and her.
> 
> I want to take her down a notch or two. She's so excited to be starting her music career with POSOM and I want to basically say FU by tainting her stage name from the very beginning. I want her to know that every time she sees someone about music she'll have to wonder if that person saw the CV listing when they did a Google search for her name. This gives me pleasure to think about be cause she is so conscious of her public image. This is my FU which pays dividends over time.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS -

"This is my F U which pays dividends over time".

My favorite quote of the day.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Zillard, I guess I'm asking if he thinks it's going to be a mistake. Conrad's been on the site for a long time, just wondering what his take is based on what's he's seen. Probably no point in asking. 

Went to the store with D6 and D3 tonight. They both thought they saw someone who looked like POSOM and D3 started calling for him by his nick name my STBX gives for him. 

I'm sick to my stomach right now.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-Here is my two cents on Cheaterville....presonally I think it is a complete joke. To what degree is there accountability? So if I get mad at my aunt, I can simply post her name (by the way....the account name who posted this is not me...ScornedPersonnTN) there? E Entertainment and Huffington Post have more check the facts safeguards.

Well Mr. Chuck....WTF would you do? TY for asking...websites are dirt cheap and a how to guide can teach anyone (it did me, all proof needed) to set it up. Note your name on site and describe in detail what occurred. Use as many solid and verifiable facts as possible. Maybe have a facts section and personal thoughts section. I think it would be good to add 1-10 rating scales on each verified reason, from holiness (1) to ******* (10).

Two weeks after you do this.....3AM phone call

Spouse Cheating: "WTF is wrong with you? Putting everythig out there for God and country to see....that is between me and you (notice with POS-AP their talk is plural...when you call them out....singular). What do you have to say for yourself?

Spouse Betrayed: "You made all this possible all by yourself." 

Main Sponsor for website: Adult Friend Finder....the gonorrhea of dating sites


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## Mr. Katy (Mar 12, 2013)

Chuck, my wife put me on cheaterville. I can't even tell you how many people called me a piece of garbage after that.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mr. Katy said:


> Chuck, my wife put me on cheaterville. I can't even tell you how many people called me a piece of garbage after that.


Did you get a corner lot?


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## Mr. Katy (Mar 12, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Did you get a corner lot?


Lol. I got a much deserved public bashing at the wing bar one night.


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## Mr. Katy (Mar 12, 2013)

I will tell you though, the worst was when she put a picture of the girl I was seeing on Facebook. After she did that I caught so much hell and she refused to take it down. That one made me change my view on a lot of different things.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mr. Katy said:


> I will tell you though, the worst was when she put a picture of the girl I was seeing on Facebook. After she did that I caught so much hell and she refused to take it down. That one made me change my view on a lot of different things.


You know she had battle-hardened advisers.


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## Mr. Katy (Mar 12, 2013)

Conrad said:


> You know she had battle-hardened advisers.


I knew there was someone on her shoulder. The old Katy would have never done that. Lol.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Mr Katy
"Chuck, my wife put me on cheaterville. I can't even tell you how many people called me a piece of garbage after that."

MK-Well...all I can say is the ones who judged you by a simple post....are dimwitted morons. Those who allow others to do their critical thinking for them.....get exactly what they deserve. If I were you, I would chalk this up to a survey on your true friends and sheep following a nomad.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Mr Katy-Not aware of your story but....did you cheat on your spouse??


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Hey SS how you doing today? Thinking of you


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Chopsy said:


> Hey SS how you doing today? Thinking of you


PM'ed you Chopsy


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Mr. Katy said:


> I will tell you though, the worst was when she put a picture of the girl I was seeing on Facebook. After she did that I caught so much hell and she refused to take it down. That one made me change my view on a lot of different things.



Man, that's the way to do it. :smthumbup:


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Wow, today is unbelievably hard. 

I won't see my girls for a full week. On top of that, since it is vacation time where we are, I had agree to let MIL take the girls for a few days. We have a good relationship and I did it for her. I'm not happy, though, to learn that she is taking my kids to go and watch STBX and POSOM perform a concert. All of this is making me sick to my stomach, seriously very sick. 

I also ruminated this morning about POSOM's relationship with his wife and why they never had kids. I think my wife may have told me at one point they POSOM's wife can't have them or had trouble conceiving. Which makes it all the more the reason why he would go after a woman who has children, because in his head he knows he could have children with her. And I had a flashback to my wife telling our therapist of her fantasy to have a baby with him, and her email to me saying she could give POSOM things "his other women could not". 

I am in hell. 

I look at the titles of this topic area in TAM and people are really suffering. Titles such as Losing It, Unbearable Pain, Can't Get Through This, and so on. This pain is real and deep. I think of my wife going and singing and dancing while we were going through our separation and her husband and her children were suffering at home. It's days like this I hate her and POSOM with a passion. But like Conrad said, in the end we only hate ourselves. And he's right. I hate myself for not being the best husband I could be and now I am in this position. I had a beautiful, vivacious wife and I did not spend enough time showing her how desirable she is. Someone else is doing that now and I'm a freaking mindless zombie as a result. 

Someone please tell me this gets better because right now it does not seem like it will ever get better. I am freaking out. I'm going to be alone a week w/out the kids and that's when things start to get really dark. I can't f'ing deal with being X'ed out of her life. I think about her all the time. Her smile, her scent, her laugh, every trace of her body. I'm on meds but I feel like I am going to have a psychotic breakdown. 

I was thinking about it yesterday and I realize there's nothing really wrong with me. (Or there wasn't - now I am a loon). She fell in love with me, made a lot of effort to be with me (and I with her), we had two children together, and then BAM. She's not in love anymore? WTF? Chuck, I know you said that matters of the heart should just be accepted and not attempted to be understood, but talk about a reverse trajectory. Shooting up and up then crash and burn.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-Your hell is in your mind. You have your girls, yes not all the time but they love you as you them. This is the time you evaluate what your strengths and weaknesses are. Work on your weaknesses and brighten your strengths. Always smile and be polite....you may accidentally run into some one. Seems in life we look for someone and it never comes to pass. The moment you stop or "swear" you are not ready, it just finds you.

Me-"What made you think I was a gentleman?"

New Gal-"You stood in the rain to open the door for the older women to come in."

And dem say weunz in da Sowth ain't rais'd rite!


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Hi Chuck,

That's funny. I was raised in the South and always open doors for women. I even open the door for my STBX even the times I was mad at her. It gets ingrained, doesn't it? 

When I'm on the street, I smile and am polite. That 'script' kicks in and it's easy to do. But inside I am in intense pain. 

The thing about MIL taking the kids to the concert hit me like a ton of bricks, and I know why. My STBX has robbed me of an entire future. Her future. And the one we were going to share. I spoke about this much earlier on in my thread. She is metamorphosing into her fuller self (self-actualization, Conrad) through music, something that I always supported but that POSOM must have supported much more intently of course, since they perform together. The times I went to see her perform, she was already in her affair. She performed on our wedding anniversary and I took the kids to see them. That was my 'gift' to her - supporting her new gigs because she was so excited about it. In hindsight, I can see what little attention she was putting into our relationship at the time and that no 'loving wife' would have been like that. 

So it's days like this I think to myself, what a selfish c*nt she is and what a fool I have been. I am strapped to the victim's chair because I feel the injustice is so grave. We're in her country. We have kids to raise. There's nothing the f*ck wrong me and there's nothing we couldn't have worked out had she tried. She has this marvelous little life she's arranged for herself and I'm withering away here. This is why I go batty and seek revenge. Do they ever wake up and realize what they've done?


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

StayStrong - I feel your pain. Hang in there, buddy, and be good to yourself. I struggle not to dwell on the negative, but only cause myself more suffering when I do. Do something nice for yourself this weekend, like go see a man flick or book a massage, OK? Are you eating healthy and getting enough exercise? Keep venting and posting. We are here for you. Know that you WILL get through this to brighter days, capeesh? 

((((Hugs))))), A12


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

The pain of victim hood is severe. But there is an alternative.

Instead of being a victim of what happened, become a survivor of it.

It is so hard, I had that feeling of being a survivor once and it was immense. It let me be proud to still be here despite "everything" instead of ashamed about "everything".

Somewhere the last few years, i slipped back nto the victiom chair but i do remember that other place and I am determined to get back there. I see plenty of signs you are heading that way yourself SS. Believe you can, I believe it.

I won't claim it's easy or that it isn't still painful but you are still here, you are still there for your kids despite the pain. That is something to be proud of.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-It's just taught more in the South I guess. It has its benefits though...My 2nd love, back in the early-mid 90's was being oh the tart. I politely opened the door for her and "accidentally" closed the car door too soon. "Oh my, did the door catch your leg?" "Thousand pardons." As I grinned all the way around the car


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

A12 - My STBX is a masseuse. Argh... lost that too. 

KC - This victim chair is large and comfy. It even reclines.  And I already told myself that if I am really tempted to off myself I should instead take him out of the picture.  Problem solved. Sorta. Not really.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

What are your thoughts about me contacting my wife about some unresolved issues? These aren't things that would lead to a fight. I'm hitting a self-esteem wall with regards to sexual adequacy. It's a hard thing to talk about in general, but I feel I need to know the areas where she was unsatisfied. If she felt the need to take on another man, I feel I deserve to know what wasn't getting done in the bedroom for her. Thoughts on that?


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Her taking on another man wasn't the result of your inabilities...its her, not you 
DO NOT CONTACT HER. 

And smarten your [email protected]@ up with all this killing sh!t. Life your life for you and your kids. You'll get used to the crappy days we all have them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

WTF? R U Kidding me?

This is about her not you. She is the inadequate one.

Don't you dare send anything.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Hi FF,

The killing thing was more of a joke. Basically telling KC I wouldn't be the first to go. Okay, dark humour I know. Don't worry, nobody's going to disappear. I have my lovely daughters to watch out for and I won't let anything rob me of time with them. 

I'd still like to know what went wrong for her in that area. Was it a loss of attraction, intimacy, desire? Poor performance? Our third MC session was supposed to be about sexual communication. She cancelled it for a work appointment, so we never got to talk about that. Hell, I had my issues about it, too. There were things that dissatisfied me about the romance.

Anyhow, I've decided to start an exercise routine. Maybe that will calm me down more.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> WTF? R U Kidding me?
> 
> This is about her not you. She is the inadequate one.
> 
> Don't you dare send anything.


I don't know, my drive went down the last year. Maybe I became LD (low drive)? Sex was 1-2 times a week, maybe even once a week. I think she had a higher drive than I during that time and was not fulfilled. She indicated that after the affair. I think I was overworking and just wasn't as turned on about sex as I normally was. That and I was getting less affection from her, so the times when it just wasn't physical hot and heavy, I think I started to feel emotionally rejected. Hmm, I only realize that now by writing it. 

Were your sex lives waning before the affair?


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Trust me SS this is about her, not you.

You did not drive her to another man. 

You probably felt emotionally rejected because she
had already emotionally checked out. 

My story is weird. I don't think our sex life suffered too much. 
Maybe a little when she was on drugs. I believe her affair was
her way of getting "high" again.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> What are your thoughts about me contacting my wife about some unresolved issues?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Point taken, Conrad.

But aren't 'loneliness', 'boredom' and 'lack of attention' the oft-cited hallmarks of affairs?

If POSOM is a sexual dynamo that any woman would be ravaged by, okay I can take it. Nothing I can do about that. 

I just would like to know what went south for her in that regard with me. Pre-affair, that is. Just your typical marriage complacency?

Can't a guy get a little 411 on this to soothe his troubled mind?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Does this really just come down to commitment?

As in I could, she couldn't?

The rest of these issues be damned?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> But aren't 'loneliness', 'boredom' and 'lack of attention' the oft-cited hallmarks of affairs?


Those sound like blameshifting excuses to me.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Hi FF,
> 
> The killing thing was more of a joke. Basically telling KC I wouldn't be the first to go. Okay, dark humour I know. Don't worry, nobody's going to disappear. I have my lovely daughters to watch out for and I won't let anything rob me of time with them.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear it was dark humour, hard to tell with you 

It doesn't matter what she says, you will not be satisified with the response and you will feel like an absolute [email protected]@ afterwards. Trust me, I've been there. I've broken down and reached out with the "why her not me" and it got me no where and I felt like a total loser afterwards. 

For your own sanity don't do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Point taken, Conrad.
> 
> But aren't 'loneliness', 'boredom' and 'lack of attention' the oft-cited hallmarks of affairs?
> 
> ...


Did she tell you she was lonely? Bored? Wanted more attention?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Agree with my esteemed colleagues on this one, especially GutPunch's WTF!

Do NOT contact her and ask her about this stuff, it is akin to groveling.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

familyfirst09 said:


> Did she tell you she was lonely? Bored? Wanted more attention?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, she never said any of those things. 

Never complained about sex or lack of affection, nor if I was doing xyz or not doing xyz in the bedroom. I think the only thing she ever asked for was for me to wake her in the middle of the night sometimes for sex. She liked that. And then in the last year, more frequency. I was starting to wane due to work/kid stress. 

I think if she had an issue she just wanted to avoid conflict or avoid hurting my feelings about anything. 

I was always thought I was a good blend of Romeo and Rogue in the bedroom but -and I'm opening up to you guys here- she told me I was gentler than POSOM. Great, make me feel like a real man there. Hence my inadequacies, you see? I attribute that to the wife/mother complex I think we men sometimes get for our mates. I guess I was not ravaging her like said POSOM, but hey F you maybe it's because I have a different level of intimacy with you and my dopamine and testosterone levels are shooting through the roof. Maybe if you were wearing lingerie and heels for me, you'd see a difference. (The few times she did, there was a difference). The same thing will happen to him, and she probably won't say anything to him and go off and find someone else to ravage her.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> Agree with my esteemed colleagues on this one, especially GutPunch's WTF!
> 
> Do NOT contact her and ask her about this stuff, it is akin to groveling.


Yes, that's true. There's no good way to get the info out without looking stupid.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Trust me there is nothing wrong with you except for your confidence. Same with me. That's what happens when your heart gets ripped out and stomped on.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Yes, that's true. There's no good way to get the info out without looking stupid.


And regretting that you did it.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Usually, where you are at SS, for every one question answered....you have five new questions. Not worth it....


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Ha. SS in one of our talks Mrs.C complained about the sex. I was really confused about it because i know our sex life was great. Less than I wanted (issues heh) but frequent enough and good enough. Then I trigged. The sex in the last year was terrible.

It seemed like I did all the work while she just lay there and while I wanted to make it last and not just be 2 minute job done, she just wanted it over with. Yeah at the end it was lame but it wasn't because I suddenly became inept, it was because she had checked out. For me sex was affirmation of our love (and because I am a horndog), for her it became no more than duty sex by that time. Just adding to her disconnect.

For a while her comment really knocked me as I thought she must have been right, then I realised it was all just part of the disconnect and the rewriting she insisted on doing.

I have plenty of faults but ruining our sex life wasn't one. That is firmly on her as far as I am concerned.

There are ,loads of things I wanted to ask abut why she felt that way but not only would I probably not like the answers, half of them woudn't even be true due to the rewriting.

So err yeah, I got past that particular demon by looking at past actions not current words. Until she stopped wanting me it was great, she isn't a good enough actress, as shown by the later times.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Interesting, KC. Thanks for sharing.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Checking in, SS, how you doing?

Was re-reading your thread till I just got to this end part about sex and inadequadies, etc. 

Seems to be a very comment theme in almost all of the threads on TAM written by men. 

Wife checks out in every way, to include the bedroom. Later, tells him he was a lousy lay anyway and that it was all his fault, that if he had made her happier in general, it would have been reflected in the sack.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Hey bud. 

My WS contends I was a good lover, but she could just be saying that to appease me. I used to be a 'great lover' in her eyes.

The ones that say you were a lousy lay are full of it and just know what buttons to push. They just don't respect their men anymore. Women like this are despicable. 

Today I was kicking myself for not really thinking twice about my wife taking private music lessons at night (at 8pm) with a person of the opposite sex. It just never triggered an alert in my head, probably because I had not seen the teacher and because my wife works alone and has always defended herself against any unscrupulous clients. But that's when she's at her office and in control. 

Anyhow, it's quite clearly a terrible idea in hindsight, especially as they were sitting right next to each other and that creates immediate sexual tension. So, basically it was bound to happen. 50/50 chance if there's remotely any chemistry there. In a sense, I enabled this affair by not being a sensible, mindful husband. I neglected my duties and help keep her untempted by outside male energy. I'm not saying women are weak, I'm saying we're all weak. I sunk my own ship by not being the head of the household and monitoring all events. I've been drinking a little tonight and I should not. It makes me very depressed. 


My buddy and I were trying to figure some sort of direction for me to take. I need to be inspired and I need to meet people. I really have no idea where the rest of my life is leading. The job I currently have is not ideal and I'm still kind of stuck in the burbs of this foreign country. This dead-end hermit lifestyle can't go on forever. I'm quite literally having to reconstruct a life and just don't have any clue about what it is I should go after. It's a big mental leap. 

He nixed my 'honey trap' idea to separate WS and POSOM. If I had enough money and good language skills here, I'd try it.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

Just wanted to say that the fact she hooked up with posOM isn't because you weren't vigilant enough or that you enabled it or neglected her. I can see lots of hot men and spent time with them , bt I won't be tempted because in my head I am unavailable, it doesn't matter how hot or cute someone is, I have made a decision to be unavailable. She made a choice to make herself be available, it had nothing to do with or what you did or didn't do.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

You're right. She did make a choice, Chopsy. 

But...

Have you ever spent an hour alone on a regular basis with those cute guys at night? Sitting right next to them?

I think it's easy to see how prevalent affairs are and how easy it is for emotional affairs to begin. Familiarity and closeness creates an intimate space. Poor decisions are made and they spiral out of control. Fast forward 7-8 months later and she's ready to break up her family. She fell in love and hard as it is she can't turn back. This stuff happens all the time <shakes head in despair>. That's why I say that married people of opposite sex should not be in settings such as that.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I see how someone weak could easily fall into it in that situation. You have realised her weakness now but were blind to it then SS. You didnt realise that weakness was there so didnt question it the way you would with hindsight. It isn't on you. It is on her. 

Once bitten twice shy for sure though!


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-Some people can not be satisfied. You can beat your head against the wall and it does no good. In most cases...it is issues from within themselves, not you. But they make danm sure you take the fall for it. I made my ex own her own emotions. She didn't like it. What a shock! Hang in there...


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

While I agree with Chopsy, Chuck and KC, I take your point about being blind to her evenings with the music teacher. My wife's answer to you prior to their affair would have been, marriage has to be based on trust and there for you should trust your partner unflinchingly, 100 percent, no matter what. That there should never be any NEED for husbandry vigilance. 

But here's the thing. I tried to be as trusting as I could bear but then was vigilant too, if my wife had been meeting this music teacher in the evening, I would NOT have liked it. And you know what? At the end of the day, nothing I said or did made any difference. She slowly slipped into the fog that she's still in.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

That's just it though. It happened because she did it not because SS wasn't vigilant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

But KC - vigilance can prevent a forest fire.

Passivity / complacency can not.

It's a Husband 101 rule which I forgot. No matter. 

I realized it was in part due to the fact that I was working alone at the time and therefore had forgotten about all the subtle interactions and chemistry that occurs when two members of the opposite sex are in close quarters. 

Chuck and Chopsy have a point, but at the same time if your spouse knew you were vigilant (and even jealous), then she might be less inclined to start an affair. 

Anyhoo.. it was the first in a string of mistakes. Many lessons learned from this experience. Too many maybe! I look back at the time I let her go see OM for 1/2 hour in a public place (or so she says) during the daytime to say goodbye 'in person' and do it right. Silly me thought we were mature adults and that this was somehow a 'proper ending' like you'd see in the movies or something; I still didn't understand the lying cheating machine she had become and how strong the addiction is. That's the thing I try to get across to all new BS's on TAM. Your wife is not who you think she is right now. If you've never experienced betrayal before and you had a loving, caring relationship, this is often a hard thing to grasp. You don't realize how emphatic your actions must be, so don't think you are going overboard. I'm talking to the the lurkers right now. I could have said, "No, you may not go" but in my head I was thinking "Well, if she doesn't do it now, she'll do it in secret later." Be firm, decisive.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

I still think even tho regular contact might make people friendly, there is still a line you dont cross if you are in a committed relationship. If you do cross it, it's because you have decided its ok or justified it to yourself. 



staystrong said:


> I could have said, "No, you may not go" but in my head I was thinking "Well, if she doesn't do it now, she'll do it in secret later." Be firm, decisive.


She would have done it anyway, found a way to do it without you knowing. Your permission given or not, would not have changed anything IMO.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Probably. 

I do have to be fair to myself and put this in its proper context. We were having this nice little first weekend of R (I was so happy, my god), and I was claiming victory in my head. "Oh, finally she has seen the light." This is why you have to get professional help or find a place like TAM at this point. You just don't realize what powerful forces you are dealing with and how insidious they can be. 

Anyhow. I know I talk a lot about the past, but I am starting to see glimpses of the future. There are many great women out there, I just need to meet them. I tried hard to save the relationship in the best way I could at the time. I really valued what we had, obviously moreso than she did. That's the reality. Maybe a harder approach to the A and R would've worked, maybe not. I was willing to do the dirty to work to R and she wasn't. 

My tools were more cerebral - I was trying to use booksmarts and didn't have enough streetsmarts. TAM is streetsmarts.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Hmmmm...

STBX stops by today (unannounced) to get swimming suit for D6. 

I don't let her in. The place is a freaking mess. I toss her down the swim suit from the window. 

Pleasant, cordial. Lumber-free conversation.

She starts to talk about how she's been "thinking" a lot lately. I say what about? She says how she was "hard" and "had blinders on" during the A and post D-Day (to push through and make things happen). I nodded. She says she starts to see the pain she put me through. I nodded. She said a couple of more things, and I basically said something to the effect of "reality is setting in". 

I asked her if she is seeing anyone for IC. She said no. I suggested she should.

She wondered why I didn't let her up into the apartment. I said I was about to take a shower (true, I was standing there w/out a shirt on). She's says she can envision my body perfectly in her head. (She wasn't saying this as a c'mon).

We talked about custody stuff for a bit. 

Sounds like some of her fog is beginning to lift. Well, I'm happy for her. I was starting to wonder where that part of her had gone. I hope she seeks IC.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

As HappyMan and Conrad would say to me, she just threw you a couple of crumbs. Now it's your job to play the squirrel and scurry around for those crumbs. 

Hang tough, SS, here is where it starts getting even more difficult.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Nice job!

Stay the course!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Funny enough, BW, it didn't leave me pining for her or anything like that. I was sincerely happy that she is starting to see for herself that she had blinders on. Happy that some truth was starting to prevail in this microverse of mine. 

Thanks GP!

Hangin' tough,
SS


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

How sure are you in fact she is not seeing anyone? Was it not several days ago your D saw or was calling the POS's name in the store?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Sorry for the disjointed posts, Chuck. She's living with POSOM. 

If you recall, she moved him into our old apartment after we separated and I went on a long trip back to the USA. 

They just moved into their own place.

I think thing are starting to feel different, more real. She doesn't see the kids as much. I'm not saying she's reconsidering (I think she's still very much in lurrrve with POSOM) I think it's just starting to hit her more. "Okay, this is my life now" and she's looking back and seeing that wow she really kind of screwed me over and put me in a lot of pain. So it's still about HER dealing with HER regrets, if you know what I mean.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

If it is what she wants, then be a gentleman and give it to her. In these cases, rational thought is out the window. But Chuck....why do you think this? Her relations with the children. If it was the real deal, she would want the children as much as possible. You may think I am crazy but you are in a better position than you think. Take this time to reflect....what do you want? Do the things she hated when you were married. Rediscover the guy you were the day before you and her met.

With children, I am aware you'd rather fix what you had. Starting over is near impossible with children. I have none so I have it easy. You and her both want to see you as the strong cog. Full steam ahead!


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Aye aye captain!

By "She doesn't see the kids as much" I am referring to the alternating weekly custody. It's only recently gone into effect.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Starting to do the dance of custody stuff. STBX wanted to switch our vacation weeks for something happening in April. I agreed because she had been flexible for something earlier this month. 

She then informs me that actually it was a week before the vacation starts. She wanted to take the kids out of school for a week so that she could to a vacation club type place and sing there at night while getting free stay at the club. Of course I said no, which she replied 'oh yeah, you're right, i probably wouldn't want to let you do that either'. TBH, it's something I would do if we were still a family but I'm against it otherwise. I said, 'well you (and POSOM) can go, but the kids will stay here' and she replied 'ah, it's too bad, because it's a real family affair and they would love it'. A real family affair. I muttered something about that but she didn't hear it and said 'what?'. I said 'nothing'. That was my only slip in the convo. 

She proceeded to ask if I still feel lonely without my kids. I said 'well of course they are my own flesh and blood." She was wondering if we should stop the mid week visitation set-up because it was becoming 'too complicated'. The girls are 3 and 6 - a little young to go a whole week w/out seeing the other parent, IMO. 

So I don't know.. this whole divorce thing bites. I just want my family back the way it was. Some people can't count their blessings. I guess what we had just wasn't ENOUGH for her. I didn't see her really trying to actively change it through real communication. Nope, just time to swap out with a new guy. Honestly, if he had not been a musician, it would not have happened. 

I'm dragging bit on the divorce papers and other stuff, but time to give her what she wants. But really, WTH does this woman want? Is she happy? Does she feel free? I certainly feel neither happy or free. I feel lonely and miserable. We could have had this life, we could have been on vacation together. Now.. I don't even know what to do with the kids for vacation. I honestly don't. The income levels have changed, mine is lower and hers is greater now she's with him (combined incomes, I mean). I'm just.. lost?

She seems different now, too. Almost more masculine or something. Higher testosterone level or something. It's not attractive. 

Venting. Thanks.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

At some point, you're going to realize there is nothing that will be "enough" for her.

She seeks happiness outside of herself.

It's a futile quest.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Could be, Dr. C

agh - just realized i took my last anti-D pill last night and neglected to the Doctor for another prescription. Do they normally give refills without 'em?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Could be, Dr. C
> 
> agh - just realized i took my last anti-D pill last night and neglected to the Doctor for another prescription. Do they normally give refills without 'em?


They will call in the refill unless you are "due" for an appointment


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS -

I've been meaning to ask, this guy is a musician, what do you mean musician? Is he in a rock band, does he play the oboe in some symphony? You said he's a music teacher, right, that's what puts food on the table? I'm just trying to better understand the dynamics here....

If you mentioned previously, my apologies....


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

SS 

Your time will come.

Let her enjoy hers.

Her day of reckoning is inevitable.

It's who she is. Her happiness will vanish.


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## allowingthecakeeating (Mar 13, 2013)

SS, your wife is a fool. I am in a similar situation as you. I want my H back and up until recently would have done about anything for it. I took a vow and meant it. There were no hurdles that we could not tackle, if he just gave it a try. There was no abuse, no addictions, no affairs (however I believe a EA on his part) But he won’t and I can’t do anything. In the last couple of weeks he has told me it is OVER. I need to completely back off and morn the loss of my dream. It sucks but I have three beautiful children, I am fairly attractive and work on myself constantly. I have to BELIEVE that there is something better out there.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

allowingthecakeeating said:


> . I have to BELIEVE that there is something better out there.


SS, this my friend.

You are not perfect. You will never be "perfect" but you are working on yourself and could one day find you are "you" perfectly. Then one day, people can love you for who you are not who they thought you were or wanted you to be.

You're in the same place as me with that right now, I hope the first person that can love us for who we really are will turn out to be ourselves.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> SS -
> 
> I've been meaning to ask, this guy is a musician, what do you mean musician? Is he in a rock band, does he play the oboe in some symphony? You said he's a music teacher, right, that's what puts food on the table? I'm just trying to better understand the dynamics here....
> 
> If you mentioned previously, my apologies....


He teaches an instrument and performs as well - solo and in groups. 

He's exactly the wrong profession of person for my wife to be spending time alone with. They tapped into her dream of performing live, and that was it. It involved her dreams, her passion and that is a real tough thing for me to compete with even though I supported her endeavours. Family was no longer a priority for her. Even the definition of what our 'family' was changed and her divorced upbringing supported that consciously and subconsciously.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

That relationship is on the clock. 

Read what Chip posted on K.C.'s thread - that has all the makings of a disaster waiting to happen.

And when it does, know that you'll be healed and off and running. 

Count on it.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

K.C. said:


> SS, this my friend.
> 
> You are not perfect. You will never be "perfect" but you are working on yourself and could one day find you are "you" perfectly. Then one day, people can love you for who you are not who they thought you were or wanted you to be.
> 
> You're in the same place as me with that right now, I hope the first person that can love us for who we really are will turn out to be ourselves.


You're right, and I'm not striving to be perfect, either. 

'Who we really are' changes over time, doesn't it? 

I want someone who will stick it out through the changes.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> You're right, and I'm not striving to be perfect, either.
> 
> 'Who we really are' changes over time, doesn't it?
> 
> I want someone who will stick it out through the changes.


You'll have to find someone who is emotionally centered and resists the primal urge of hypergamy.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Conrad said:


> You'll have to find someone who is emotionally centered and resists the primal urge of hypergamy.


That'll be a tough one to find... 

but at least we'll be better suited to weed out the bad ones.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ReGroup said:


> That'll be a tough one to find...
> 
> but at least we'll be better suited to weed out the bad ones.


Group,

As traumatized as you currently are, you do realize that the strength of a good man helps his woman stay centered.

This is what they crave.

(Not how well you push a vacuum)


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> You'll have to find someone who is emotionally centered and resists the primal urge of hypergamy.


What's the litmus test for that, Conrad? 

Ah yeah, I forgot .. if she cheated with me, she'll cheat on me


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Thin line between helping (demonstrating leadership) and fixing right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Group,
> 
> As traumatized as you currently are, you do realize that the strength of a good man helps his woman stay centered.
> 
> ...


Dammit, vacuuming was the one chore I liked.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Ok, what's all this about vacuuming?? Somebody fill me in!!

SS - I think you did great not falling for the crumbs. Good job.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ReGroup said:


> Thin line between helping (demonstrating leadership) and fixing right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's all about intent.

Approval seeking spells "doom"


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

familyfirst09 said:


> Ok, what's all this about vacuuming?? Somebody fill me in!!
> 
> SS - I think you did great not falling for the crumbs. Good job.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's from a comment on my thread yesterday.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

I was reading back through the posts from earlier today on your thread and saw your response about the music teacher and how hard you felt it was to compete. And your comment about how the concept of family apparently was a low priority to your wife, perhaps at least partly because of her upbringing. 

That has been my experience, and it seems to be such a common theme among these threads. I guess upon reflection all of us are capable of an affair, a moment of indiscretion, a drunken night in a Days Inn while on some awful business trip. 

But the people who can remorselessly turn their backs on their families, that is a special breed.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I don't want to say she was without remorse since I do think it tore her up inside. Not as much as it would tear me and you up, and that's sort of the point, right? You and I would have to be REALLY unhappy or succumb to immense selfishness to even consider such an act as breaking up our families. I would say a woman's priority to keep a family intact changes, at least in the short-term. The interest in her new man supercedes her interest in her kids. Or she compartmentalises really well. 

In a way, she thinks she is doing right by her kids by choosing someone who is 'better' for her. Women break up their families in greater numbers than men. Call it hypergamy or whatever, but it definitely challenges our assumptions. They're not always leaving for the kids. At least on TAM they seem to be leaving for selfish reasons. Again, you may find different perspectives in other forums.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I guess you're right, SS. 

Men are absolutely bewildered and devastated by the prospect of a broken family. It goes right to the core of some primordial drive or need. Women sem better equipped somehow at being able to rationalize how everyone, especially the kids, will be better off log term.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I dont think it is about male vs female. It is about mindsets. Maybe that mindset is more prevalant in the fairer(heh) sex but it isnt unique to them. 

Tbh I am not sure that is even the case, there are plenty of ladies on TAm dealing with sadsack ex or stbx husbands doing just the same thing.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

SS, she might feel guilt, tho that's a big if. She sure as hell isn't feeling remorse, otherwise she'd be begging for forgiveness and couldn't apologise enough. My H once said he was remorseful. I sent him the guilt vs remorse page..sorry cant find it now and don't know how to link stuff on iPad. Here it is, its on surviving betrayal.com. It's on the home page. Have a look.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> It's from a comment on my thread yesterday.


Oh I get it!!!! Lol vaccuming up the love crumbs. Why Is everything so cryptic on here? 

I say leave them on the floor and tramp on them every day!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

K.C. said:


> I dont think it is about male vs female. It is about mindsets. Maybe that mindset is more prevalant in the fairer(heh) sex but it isnt unique to them.
> 
> Tbh I am not sure that is even the case, there are plenty of ladies on TAm dealing with sadsack ex or stbx husbands doing just the same thing.


Ahem......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

FF09, the vacuum comment is in reference to a man's sexual appeal to his lady. No man has ever turned on his lady by pushing a vacuum cleaner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> FF09, the vacuum comment is in reference to a man's sexual appeal to his lady. No man has ever turned on his lady by pushing a vacuum cleaner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL, well I like my analogy better 

And really?? You think that's true?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

I'm with FF! Get the Hoover out! Getting hot just thinking about it!! :rofl:


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

It doesn't.

It may be appreciated and be favorable on top of more 'manly' things but when we turn into Mr. Nice Guy and vacuum.. we just look pathetic.

We go from doing our fair share to being the wife's 'biatch'. I don't think it is about being all "Ugh me man, me no vacuum" but if our sex appeal has dropped to our SO, no amount of polishing or vacuuming will bring it back.

Doesnt mean don't do chores, it means when you need to fix your sex appeal.. do it some other way fool.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Well I guess I can understand that. But a man who pulls his weight with the household chores is definitely a good thing!! And can certainly help with their appeal to their spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

No argument from me there. I believe we should do our share of general household chores, what that share is varies on the SO's own workload, ie full time work or full time SAH but our fair share non the less.

It may help our general appeal and doing nothing is surely no help at all. You wouldn't use " hey I'm a dab hand with a vacuum" as a pick up line though if you see where we are coming from.

That a man is secure enough in himself to be happy doing all that stuff may be attractive but if you do not find him attractive any more, will you drag him to the bedroom still just because he cleans the house well?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> No argument from me there. I believe we should do our share of general household chores, what that share is varies on the SO's own workload, ie full time work or full time SAH but our fair share non the less.
> 
> It may help our general appeal and doing nothing is surely no help at all. You wouldn't use " hey I'm a dab hand with a vacuum" as a pick up line though if you see where we are coming from.
> 
> That a man is secure enough in himself to be happy doing all that stuff may be attractive but if you do not find him attractive any more, will you drag him to the bedroom still just because he cleans the house well?


Were you laughing when you asked that last question?


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

familyfirst09 said:


> Well I guess I can understand that. But a man who pulls his weight with the household chores is definitely a good thing!! And can certainly help with their appeal to their spouse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's what you think. Subconsciously, you think differently.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Were you laughing when you asked that last question?


Damn straight I was.

I may have seen that sort of stuff happen somewhere, if I could just put my finger on where it was!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

K.C. said:


> Damn straight I was.
> 
> I may have seen that sort of stuff happen somewhere, if I could just put my finger on where it was!


Anthony DeMello cautions that the "problem is rarely where we think it is"

So, all our fixing and kvetching about the "problem" totally misses the mark.

50,000 feet - and when we "understand" the situation, the problem is nowhere close to what we thought.

This is why you hear so much about the vacuum and the dishwasher.

If the man was being "her man" in the way her subconscious desires him, the vacuum? Give me a break.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

^ I agree

I'm starting to wonder about the paranoia discussed here a lot about men doing more traditionally female chores and how that affects their sex appeal. 

Most of my friends and peers are in relationships where the marriage is looked upon as a partnership. In most cases, both partners work at least part-time unless they are in the child-rearing stage. 

I would say chores have evolved so that the following is true (at least for my peer group):

1. There is a huge overlap in 'common' chores. These include dishes, laundry and vacuuming. I don't know a single dude who sits on his arse while wife cooks and cleans. It's not my generation, at least not in the college educated, professionals crowd. 

2. Guys are still expected to do the dirty work: trash, clogged sinks, gutters, etc. Guys like that work. 

3. And guys are expected to do the heavy work and the more dangerous work. We won't let our women do those things. 

4. Ladies do a lot of the finer maintenance stuff that guys wouldn't remember to do. They 'liven' up a home with flourishes most guys are too daft to come up with themselves. But guys do have a say in the furniture choices and general deco. We don't want to walk into our own homes and feel like we are in a chick's place. 

So, let's not exaggerate the beta-ization based on chores. Some of those definitions are moving targets. As Conrad said, if he was being "her man" in the way her subconscious desires him, the vacuum means nothing. It's not like seeing him vacuum makes him feel like a kept pet to her.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

...but what if it's a [email protected] vacuum!? 

You know that dyson dude gets all the women.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

The spoon bending scene in The Matrix, "There is no spoon" goes along with the vacuum comments. It's less about the actual 'vacuum' and more about the state of mind.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I think I have it now.

Next time I have a SO, I just wave my hand and say "there is no vacuum" for instant sex appeal? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

IDK if you can push a vacuum with your mind that's
probably an exception and will get you laid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Nice one GP :smthumbup:


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

So things are easing in to more of a state of calm. 

It really is the medication. I should've been on these pills months and months ago. I would have spared myself and others plenty of misery. The anxiety, depression, anger and self-pity I felt during the first several months during separation was VERY intense. A constant state of shock, really. I remember not being able to concentrate, or function, and feeling very very sad, angry and vindictive. The 180 and NC were tough to do right. It was so bad that I didn't see my children for 2 months. At the time I thought had to go back to my home country for my sanity. But that wasn't the real fix.. the medication was.

STBX called today to talk about kids and schedules and stuff. At one point she remarked that she had a dream about me last night in which I and some friends of mine she had not met went to the old apartment to pick up some stuff and she was there. She said she gave me a kiss in the dream and it was very tender. And then our daughter woke her up.

She remarked again how she had felt sorry during the separation but now she is able to feel more the pain I went through (or her perception of it at least) and it hurts. I don't think she can fully comprehend but I didn't seize the opp to detail it. 

I do feel lonely and nostalgic for the past, but I'm also starting to grasp rays of sunlight and new possibilities. That could be Spring opening up new thoughts and feelings. 

I will say that cumulatively this can't be worth it. The suffering for me and my kids, the radical change in our daily lives and the end of a shared future. Even my wife's own suffering. I just don't see how it is really all worth it in the end for her.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Is she trying to get old SS back. Why is she trying to play like that? Damned if I know but it isn't in your interest to engage. She doesn't deserve anything from you. Sounds like fishing but not any sort of real remorse.

Glad the meds are working for you. I was close to non functional initially in the split. Everything was so intense and overwhelming. I find myself wondering if my dose is to high as I am so tired but I have no doubt they have helped enormously.

Give yourself credit too though. No amount of meds make us better, they are just a tool we use for US to get ourselves better. I'd give you a huge manhug for how far you have come if I could. You did it, not the meds. They were just a tool.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Chucky71 once told me that the pendulum always swings back at one point or another. 

Kudos for not engaging - good man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Good on you, SS.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Thanks guys - it's easier to not engage when you're not feeling so soul-rattled. KC, i do give the meds lots of cred. Some of this emotional stuff is just chemicals in the brain, right?

That's right, RG, Chucky knows best. However, I think her expressiveness lately also has to do with me relaxing and be less confrontational. I'm calm and happy, she sees the good guy I am, and realizes that the Thing i turned into was in a sense a monster of her creation. I don't think she's wavering in her choice, I just think she's relaxing too and these feelings come out.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> So things are easing in to more of a state of calm.
> 
> It really is the medication. I should've been on these pills months and months ago. I would have spared myself and others plenty of misery. The anxiety, depression, anger and self-pity I felt during the first several months during separation was VERY intense. A constant state of shock, really. I remember not being able to concentrate, or function, and feeling very very sad, angry and vindictive. The 180 and NC were tough to do right. It was so bad that I didn't see my children for 2 months. At the time I thought had to go back to my home country for my sanity. But that wasn't the real fix.. the medication was.
> 
> ...


In no way is it "worth it" for her.

You are a completely different story.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

SS. Im struggling also...dont even ask me why I don know...Its been 21 days since I’ve talked w/mstbxh and I want to contact him so bad... before I was complaining about him contacting me and now that he's not, all I want to do is reach out. He still stops in the house and picks up his mail every day and sees dogs. yesterday there was new dog food and treats. I saw that he ate my left over corn beef & cabbage...so he must have been there for lunch. He usually contacts me about bills... nada.. nothing...I must have really hurt his feelings when I told him we wouldn’t be "social" with each other and also to stop feeling sorry for himself and the choices he made, to go enjoy the life he chose... I’m thinking of at least wishing him a happy B-day in a few days even though he didn’t for me. I so need to disconnect and just cant seem to..I was the one givng him the silent treatment now no one is communicating and that worries me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

doureallycare2 said:


> SS. Im struggling also...dont even ask me why I don know...Its been 21 days since I’ve talked w/mstbxh and I want to contact him so bad... before I was complaining about him contacting me and now that he's not, all I want to do is reach out. He still stops in the house and picks up his mail every day and sees dogs. yesterday there was new dog food and treats. I saw that he ate my left over corn beef & cabbage...so he must have been there for lunch. He usually contacts me about bills... nada.. nothing...I must have really hurt his feelings when I told him we wouldn’t be "social" with each other and also to stop feeling sorry for himself and the choices he made, to go enjoy the life he chose... I’m thinking of at least wishing him a happy B-day in a few days even though he didn’t for me. I so need to disconnect and just cant seem to..I was the one givng him the silent treatment now no one is communicating and that worries me.


Do NOT wish him a Happy Birthday


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

why? dont you think that would be like saying... see you are a jerk.. I can at least still be thoughtful.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-By her actions.......deep down you are aware of everything. There is a vast difference between understanding and accepting. I understand how the banks run Congress but I will not accept it. You flew on a trip through he!! and had NO support from her. Let her "enjoy" her flight the way you did. Yes she is the mother of your children and there is nothing wrong with caring about her in regards to the kids. But to break free you have to focus on your path. Your path will include you and the children. She may be in your path down the road or she may not. Go ahead and make preparations for her not to. If she does....that is a bridge you cross in the future. 

In my 25 years of observations of friends, co-workers etc...the runner spouse/bf or gf always make an attempt to 'come home'. Always as in a solid 98%. Reasons they do vary. In my case on both sides of the break-up table.....it has happened every time. But to make a concise choice you must be free of any remnants of the prior. My first true love dumped me and I went through Dante's 8th ring for a long time. I thought I would never find anyone again. Keep in mind....I was 19. I can go into detail SS if you want but that was mainly puppy love as I look back in hindsight. 

My ex is attempting to construct a platform for a possible R. I saw it forming a few weeks after the D was final. I profiled her objectively as I would anyone else and to this point....her moves are completely predictable. Our anniversary would have been in May.....and that is roughly where her intentions lie. I patiently waited until a certain point and recently informed her I am putting the house on the market and she needs to make other arrangements for her dogs. We communicate in emails only. I refuse to give her any of my numbers. She asks me to call her constantly. Why? All we need to confer about is the dogs and making sure her pothead son is paying on his car (I signed with him before he went thug n drugs).

Which reminds me....I guess I should update my thread. Anyway....all intent and focus must lie on you....and your children. Listening to her dreams.....stop it! You are accepting crumbs. Read up on Conrad's soda machine posts in ReGroup's thread. She did not / does not want you in her life on a daily basis....give her what she wants.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> But to break free you have to focus on your path. Your path will include you and the children. She may be in your path down the road or she may not. Go ahead and make preparations for her not to. If she does....that is a bridge you cross in the future.
> 
> In my 25 years of observations of friends, co-workers etc...the runner spouse/bf or gf always make an attempt to 'come home'. Always as in a solid 98%. Reasons they do vary. She did not / does not want you in her life on a daily basis....give her what she wants.


This was good, but a hard read for us struggling still with separation. How do you focus? I take steps every day... I go on every day.. It sounds like SS is also... We do what we need to do and we plod along. But chunks of our heart are lay back with someone else and it’s hard to focus on the path ahead when you keep looking at the chunks of your heart you left behind because you’re not complete without those pieces. I also think your right with the last statement too. Somehow we have to do it. As much as they may say or hint, their choices show they don’t want us in their life. Hard to accept.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Chuck is not codependent. Me, SS, and you are.

Fix yourself. 

Chuck is not worried about what is out of his control.

We are. 

Chuck does not know what the future holds and does not care.

We try to wish and will the future we want. Painful.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

I was refering to SS and I. Not Chuck.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

DYRC2.......when is the last time you read your quote by David Brinkley? Until you reach a point of self-focus your judgement is clouded. Here is how things usually go (and holds true in my past):

One leaves the other left behind wanting other to return

leaver sees negative, left behind only great times

left behind self focus, sees everything was not them

leaver begins to see positive, their blameshift fades

leaver walks back to center as left behind leaves

due to self focus, left behind sees clearer picture

then.....the real games begin


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> DYRC2.......when is the last time you read your quote by David Brinkley? Until you reach a point of self-focus your judgement is clouded. Here is how things usually go (and holds true in my past):
> 
> One leaves the other left behind wanting other to return
> 
> ...


Im trying Chuck... Im trying.....


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

GutPunch said:


> Chuck is not codependent. Me, SS, and you are.
> 
> Fix yourself.
> 
> ...


Don't forget you are willing to let your level of self-regard be determined by the passions and actions of another person.

This completely gives away your personal power.

Staystrong's wife telling him about a dream where they kissed?

We had a term for that type of girl in high school. It was two words, and it ended in "teaser"

Yet, we ALREADY know she's an attention *****.

So, she's just being who she is - oblivious to everyone else in the world.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Chuck was lucky....no children. Chuck also is unaware what it feels like to see their child take first steps. Everything in life has two sides. I got off lucky by the fact my step son, who I raised since age seven, fractured ties by poor choices. He will be 24 this year....he owns his chaos. My ex had issues with her mother's death, her father's abandonment, her attachment to the dogs, unable to express her emotions in a healthy way.

My step-son is being sucked down the drain and he reached for her. Being a mother, she grabbed on. She had no plan so she is pulled in with him. She now enables him by allowing him to drink, pop pills and smoke pot. But keep in mind....they were my life for many years. That gnaws at me but there is nothing I can do. She will be 48 soon....her issues run deep. She refuses to talk to anyone about them. He too has emotional issues as well as substance abuse issues. You can lead a horse to water but it is up to them to drink. Do I feel guilty I was able to bounce back quickly? In some ways I still do but when you are thrown under the bus.....you either get run over or pick yourself up.

Being 41 and not interested in dating anyone younger than me (always dated older women), my window for a family and children are very slim. But I am not being sucked down the drain so I do have a fighter's chance.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Sometimes I don’t like hearing it but I have always been a tell it like I see kind of person even about myself; It’s the action I always struggled with. I can talk the talk but have always had a struggle walking the walk. I asked for help and I see the value of the comments and I’m taking them in, my back is a little stiffer and hopefully my attitude a little tougher. I am working on myself; I’m working out, a gym and PX90x (which kicked my butt last night). I signed up for some painting classes to start doing that again. I guess I do have things I can focus on. Making me a better person and being action oriented. Its leaving him in the dust (even with his OW) I struggle with but like Chuck said, focus ahead…


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

DYRC2-You will love the healthy you. So will everyone else. He will notice. He will observe the new you. Then you have decisions to make.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Chuck71 said:


> DYRC2-You will love the healthy you. So will everyone else. He will notice. He will observe the new you. Then you have decisions to make.


If I recall correctly, he's had more than 10 posOW's?


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Am not aware. Rather it be 1 POSOW or twenty.....a notice will be taken.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Conrad said:


> If I recall correctly, he's had more than 10 posOW's?


 Your correct, through our 35 years of marriage. And that’s just the ones he told me about when we went to counseling and he got them off his chest 8 years ago when he had his last AE. I told him it was his last chance and I ment it, hense the D. There is no turning back, I have to do it for my sake.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Danm.... maybe you don't have decisions to make. But I still hold he will notice. Actually more than before.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> SS-By her actions.......deep down you are aware of everything. There is a vast difference between understanding and accepting. I understand how the banks run Congress but I will not accept it. You flew on a trip through he!! and had NO support from her. Let her "enjoy" her flight the way you did. Yes she is the mother of your children and there is nothing wrong with caring about her in regards to the kids. But to break free you have to focus on your path. Your path will include you and the children. She may be in your path down the road or she may not. Go ahead and make preparations for her not to. If she does....that is a bridge you cross in the future.
> 
> In my 25 years of observations of friends, co-workers etc...the runner spouse/bf or gf always make an attempt to 'come home'. Always as in a solid 98%. Reasons they do vary. In my case on both sides of the break-up table.....it has happened every time. But to make a concise choice you must be free of any remnants of the prior. My first true love dumped me and I went through Dante's 8th ring for a long time. I thought I would never find anyone again. Keep in mind....I was 19. I can go into detail SS if you want but that was mainly puppy love as I look back in hindsight.
> 
> ...


Damn, Chuck. Great post. 

Yeah, you're right. I took a solo trip through hell. One she put me on as if I was a crash test dummy. Yet I'm starting to come out the other side. I've finally gotten to the point where I think to myself "Even if I'm alone, I'm okay". Happiness is internal. 

I did have a couple of slip ups today on the phone, but no matter. I recovered from them pretty quickly. 

That's an interesting stat about the runner spouse. And surprising. Does that apply to people who leave for someone else or just leave? 

I'm looking forward to working out, going out and getting social again. I'll be going downtown tonight, even if it's to eat by myself.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS That stat applies to ALL


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

So...

Went out tonight with a bud. 

To a little area my STBX used to frequent during her cheating days.

It's so evident. During the A: I was at home, while the kids were asleep, she's enjoying her time out socializing. It's just too easy to get to know someone over a few months and fall into an EA trap, then the PA trap.

She's a c*nt. I'm a fool (didn't keep tabs, didn't find a babysitter and join her)

Result = marriage upended. Family split.

Hope you're happy Mrs. SS, hope you're F'ing happy...

(beer talking)


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Just remember to keep it on her. Nothing you did made her a cheat.

She could have walked but no. She did hT she did and it was her choice.

You know this SS, don't backslide. Keep your focus on you. You have been great reminding me, you can do the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> So...
> 
> Went out tonight with a bud.
> 
> ...


Beer says the sweetest things.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Haha, it sure does Conrad.

While "fun" last night, I paid for it this morning. A hangover I wasn't expecting and that alochol-is-a-depressant thing going on. Guess I should be avoiding it anyway since I'm on meds.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I think last night set off a mini-depression and anxiety attack this morning. The drinking and also missing a dosage of medicine. So I'm back in "the place".

The place I used to be 24/7 for months on end. 

God, I'm so in hate with her this morning. 

I'm thinking about those one nights a week she would go to meet at a local bar to play her instrument, sing and hang out with the other students taking private lessons at the music school. POSOM was there since he was an instructor. I'm guessing everyone there must have known what was going on or suspected it. I remember her telling me once about a slightly older woman there who didn't like PosW because this other woman was interested in POSOM and didn't like the fact that PosW and POSOM were 'friends'. Ha. I'm sure that woman could pick up on exactly what was going in. During this time PosW and POSOM had already performed a gig together (I went for a little bit) and I thought that this was the relationship. PosW wants to sing, he is her vehicle for that. 

But not once did I accompany her to that weekly get together. Not once! What a fool I am, I suppose. The reason of course was the kids and that she was only out for a couple of hours typically. But I never got a sense for that environment, never knew who she was sitting next to (him?) or chatting mostly with. I'm f'ing sick to my stomach right now, and starting to be "in hate" with myself. I know my senses are good and if I had hung out there, met her cohorts, talked with him at any length and seen her behavior with me there and around him, I would've picked something up. 

And I suppose if POSOM had seen ME - that I was real person and not some caricature of his lover's making - perhaps that would have stymied him somewhat. Wishful thinking probably.

This whole experience has messed me up on so many levels.

Allright, time to start the day. Not really into it today like I was for the past two days. Her nicey-nice phone call yesterday is such a sham. Like Bullwinkle did recently, I have to remind myself of the absolute deviousness and wretched behavior she engaged in. To remember that's who she is. As Conrad said, 'selfish and oblivious to the needs of others' (paraphrased).


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

That's the spirit, SS!

Devious. Wretched. 

She's out getting her one on one tutelage under (sts) music teacher and you're home minding your kids. You trusted her! Does that make you a fool? Or a loving husband who never dreamed she would betray you this way in your wildest imagination?

You have every reason to be "in hate" with her.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

SS, I knew my ex's POSOM. They worked together at a store one evening a week and I would sometimes go there to visit and talk to them. He also manages a restaurant and the wife and I would go there and sit at the bar. He would send over sushi on the house, and come over and hang out with us.

He's almost 60, a drunk, short, fat, balding and has no nerve sensation on the right side of his body due to a stroke. My ex is 43 (looks 35), asian, 110lbs, attractive.

I never detected anything while in the middle of it. Could never imagine her being attracted to him. Now they live together. Looking back though, there were hints something was going on, I just missed them at the time and it just seemed so impossible that I shut my mind off to the possibility. 

So don't beat yourself up for not being more "involved". Not saying you wouldn't have picked up on what was going on with your STBXW, different situation of course. You trusted, as did I. You thought vows meant something, that's what we're supposed to do. 

I guess we've both learned a valuable lesson that will help us in the future.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

IMHO, the only "lesson" for me from my nightmare separation and probable divorce is that, for folks such as me who are over age 40 and don't have or want kids, there is no point to marriage -- it is completely meaningless. I am never getting married again, that's for sure!


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

People are driven to leave a horrible marriage. They are not driven to cheat. 

He doesn't leave the seat down in bathroom-I'm cheating

He doesn't watch soaps with me-I'm cheating

As funny as they sound, most likely their self-absorbed rationale for cheating is just as much or more. I always had said to my ex....if you want someone else...please let me know....I will help you pack.

But...but Chuck aren't I worth fighting for? Not any longer. Pass the suitcase please.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Awake-2012
Quote
I am never getting married again, that's for sure!

If I had $1 for everytime I have heard that and later received a wedding invite.....I would own Redondo Beach LOL


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> People are driven to leave a horrible marriage. They are not driven to cheat.
> 
> He doesn't leave the seat down in bathroom-I'm cheating
> 
> ...


It's funny because - and I may have mentioned this before - I went to a wedding last year where old buddies were there and I wound up smoking cigarettes (I quit a long time ago, prior to meeting my wife). My wife flipped out about it (part of her therapeutic work is help people quit) and she said to me "If you ever smoke, I'm going to cheat on you!!!".


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> SS, I knew my ex's POSOM. They worked together at a store one evening a week and I would sometimes go there to visit and talk to them. He also manages a restaurant and the wife and I would go there and sit at the bar. He would send over sushi on the house, and come over and hang out with us.
> 
> He's almost 60, a drunk, short, fat, balding and has no nerve sensation on the right side of his body due to a stroke. My ex is 43 (looks 35), asian, 110lbs, attractive.
> 
> ...


Ugh. The slap in the face betrayal. 

Yeah, I could see why you wouldn't have expected a toad like that to be with your wife.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Correct me if I'm wrong..

Mr and Mrs StayStrong = international couple
Mr and Mrs Bullwinkle = international couple
Mr and Mrs ReGroup = interracial couple
Mr and Mrs Maincourse = interracial couple

I don't follow a whole lot of threads, but I did detect this pattern.

Maybe there are extra pressures on these couples.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS
"If you ever smoke, I'm going to cheat on you!!!".

That was a hint.

Should have said....send my condolences to recipient

as you are buying a carton of cigarettes


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

It was so outlandish at the time, I just had to laugh. I simply thought she was having an irrational reaction and was thinking of the worst thing she could do to me.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

No...she accidentally showed her true colors

Imagine what she would have said if you smoked a pipe


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

So I have a true story, it’s not necessarily one of hope but one of how fast circumstances can change. 

A very good friend of mine’s son has been embroiled in a very bitter divorce. Both he and his wife were in law enforcement.
He married her right after she graduated from collage he was already in his career. Her major was physical development and she ended up getting a job fairly quickly as a PE teacher. He had already bought his home, was now debt free, and had a nice savings so she was coming into a pretty sweet set-up. So they are happy……. 3 years into the marriage he comes home early and finds her in bed with a co-worker. They go to counseling, R, and she gets pregnant. 

Meanwhile he was trying to advance his career and took a test to go to a higher division in law enforcement. He did not make it. She says I should see If I can do it, they are always looking for woman. He encourages her and she goes for it and passes. I and my friend could have told you right at the beginning it was not a good thing, she was attempting to emasculate him. She was very competitive and wanted to beat him in his own chosen career that he had dreamed of from a young boy. She goes through all the basic training, is on the job for a year and gets pregnant. She was not happy!! She let him know it… He tried everything to make her happy. He was willing to let her make the decission on keeping it or not. The baby was a year old when he found out she was having an affair with another (married) officer. So he files for divorce, she files charges that he is unstable. Because his work has to take that seriously he is put on desk duty and has his gun taken away and has to go to mandatory IC. Meanwhile she plays the victim and cry’s at the drop of a hat how scared she is of him ect. Etc. Eventually he is cleared but this divorce is so bitter that my friend (the grandmother) has to play go between with the parents- for the next 3 years this woman made it so difficult for this man to take his son for even the simplest vacation or holiday time. I would visit with my friend and see the ware and tare the D was taking on her and then when I would see her son, he was so ragged looking… skin and bones.. 
last year my friend was crying (she doesn’t do that easy) and she said- I just see no end in sight and the one suffering the most is this poor little boy (now 4) who was beginning to have emotional problems. He cried and screamed every time mom came to pick him up from grandma’s house.(she was still the go between because mom did not want to deal with dad.)

One week after that talk with my friend, the xw was killed on the job. She had a hero’s funeral; Her boyfriend refused to let the family get the little boys belongs from the home he shared with the mom. Anyways now this family has no more battles, they go on vacation when and where they want to go, the little one is not in the middle anymore. However he is without his mom…. He misses his mom….But he tells his grandma and his dad that he’s glad he lives with them now; he just wishes mommy would come back and live with them too. I see pics on FB of Father and son at the park, playing basketball , building a swing-set in the back yard and I know they will be fine.. and as sad as I am that he had to lose his mom. The saddest thing is I think he is going to be a better adjusted human being because of it.  That is my point to the whole thing; As painful and as hurt we are, we’re adults we will handle it, may take us some time but we will.. These children going through it only have the parents and it only takes one of those parents to put their welfare over the child’s to scar that child for life.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

I'm going black next time. First wife was white, then the asian, so I think the whole problem is is should have married black to begin with


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> No...she accidentally showed her true colors
> 
> Imagine what she would have said if you smoked a pipe


yep ^^

My X would say: if you ever do ___, I will leave you. 

I didn't. But she saw her EA/PA as "merely inappropriate".


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

is it me or is her pregnancy "timed" just right?

charges he is unstable....and her doctor's license is where? wait...PE teacher

sorry to hear about the ending....and I agree on your view


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Z-Let me guess....she (and my ex) was

Her money is her money

your money is her money


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> Z-Let me guess....she (and my ex) was
> 
> Her money is her money
> 
> your money is her money


Money was never a source of contention (maybe resentment now that I look back though) until the in house separation. 

Then it was "my money" bought this or that. 

When I asked what I ever did to her that was so horrible: 
"you got into my purse without asking"


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

LOL you secretly had a fetish for her mascara!


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

zillard said:


> Money was never a source of contention (maybe resentment now that I look back though) until the in house separation.
> 
> Then it was "my money" bought this or that.
> 
> ...


Man, same thing here, her money is hers, mine is mine, although I was to use all of mine to provide for the family (not that there's anything wrong with that), no clue what she used hers on.

I received almost the same answer when I asked that same question, what did I ever do that was so horrible: "you looked through my phone all the time. You don't trust me so I want you out"


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## soca70 (Oct 30, 2012)

doureallycare2 said:


> So I have a true story, it’s not necessarily one of hope but one of how fast circumstances can change.
> 
> A very good friend of mine’s son has been embroiled in a very bitter divorce. Both he and his wife were in law enforcement.
> He married her right after she graduated from collage he was already in his career. Her major was physical development and she ended up getting a job fairly quickly as a PE teacher. He had already bought his home, was now debt free, and had a nice savings so she was coming into a pretty sweet set-up. So they are happy……. 3 years into the marriage he comes home early and finds her in bed with a co-worker. They go to counseling, R, and she gets pregnant.
> ...


I agree as I think death of STBX would be easier to deal with than this as terrible as that sounds.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Right before we were splitting our funds a Xmas check from her grandmother came, addressed to all of us. 

I noticed that she swiped it without saying anything - to keep it all for herself. So I got in her purse and took the cash equivalent of 1/2 the check. Then told her about it.

So terrible. How dare I be so rotten.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS -

Per an earlier post, I'm behind the power curve as usual, but yes, I believe at least that international couples do face different pressures than traditional American ones.

I would not probably have believed it if someone had told me this several years ago but I think there really are some definite cultural differences

I guess that never before in my life had I bothered to reflect on something like this. But my WS has informed me many times that I am, "Too American".

I would say, what the hell does that mean?


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

zillard said:


> Right before we were splitting our funds a Xmas check from her grandmother came, addressed to all of us.
> 
> I noticed that she swiped it without saying anything - to keep it all for herself. So I got in her purse and took the cash equivalent of 1/2 the check. Then told her about it.
> 
> So terrible. How dare I be so rotten.


No kidding, what were you thinking? Didn't you know that in marriage it's ok for the W to keep everything for herself when she sees fit? 

I'm starting to think your X and my W are somehow related, too many similarities...


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

When I read these threads I think there is a cloning facility up and running somewhere. They are being oh so true to themselves and shaking of the shackles of conformity... By all conforming to a pretty generalised pattern. Heh the irony could be funny if it wasn't so real.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soca70 (Oct 30, 2012)

K.C. said:


> When I read these threads I think there is a cloning facility up and running somewhere. They are being oh so true to themselves and shaking of the shackles of conformity... By all conforming to a pretty generalised pattern. Heh the irony could be funny if it wasn't so real.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Add my STBX to the "Being true to myself" clone collection


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Mine with her SELF-ACTUALIZATION!


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> Mine with her SELF-ACTUALIZATION!


That's just British for "Being true to myself".


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Ha! I will judge every woman for the rest of my life by how many times they use the word self in a day.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

I got "Find/discover myself". I guess you can't be true to an unknown.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

So now I'm the bad guy again.

STBX and I are sharing the car until I buy another one. 

I was arranging to get the key from her (we only have one copy) tonight and said okay come by the office. Then she remembered that the car was located outside her home and then said "Well I don't really want you to know where I live." Because of the Valentine's Day incident. She still feels "traumatized". Granted, I did cause a major scene and I did get violent with POSOM, but I reminded her that I already knew where she lives (from the legal papers we drafted with the lawyer) and that I have a right to anyway because my children live there too. 

This is where I start to see the Victim and Perpetrator roles come into being. I definitely felt the victim as a result of her actions and became the Perpetrator later as a result. But for her to play the traumatized woman is such a sham. She brought this upon herself when she asked POSOM to move into our place. We weren't even legally separated. I had just moved out the week prior to his move-in date. She consulted no child counselor about this because I'm sure she knew that no one would approve of it. 

Meanwhile, I am sure she is painting me a loose cannon. It's true, I did become one but was never one before. I don't know, this just really irks me. As if THEY were the virtuous ones or something, when in reality they are two lying, cheating selfish people. It's times like these I start thinking about Cheaterville again whereas I had started to put that idea to the side. I started to feel it beneath me.

Do think it's wise to seek counseling or the two of us? We have all these unresolved issues and it's starting to affect our co-parenting.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Do think it's wise to seek counseling or the two of us? We have all these unresolved issues and it's starting to affect our co-parenting.


The joint sessions I've been having with X and the child psych have helped the co-parenting situation. 

So if she is willing, I vote yes. You'll be in each other's lives for quite some time now.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I would seek the joint counseling, SS. Didn't help in my case, my WS threw a pillow from the couch in the office at me and stormed out.

But it can't hurt to try.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Thanks Z.

BW, if you're wife HADN'T done that, then I would've told you to check for her pulse.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

LOL, SS,

I know. I actually thought it was funny. She stood up, said, this is a bunch of B.S, bounced that pillow off my head, stormed out. The IC looked at me and said, well, I guess that didn't go too well.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> Awake-2012
> Quote
> I am never getting married again, that's for sure!
> 
> If I had $1 for everytime I have heard that and later received a wedding invite.....I would own Redondo Beach LOL


Ha, ha!!!! :rofl:


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Staystrong,

Why isn't posOM buying her a car?


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> I guess that never before in my life had I bothered to reflect on something like this. But my WS has informed me many times that I am, "Too American".
> 
> I would say, what the hell does that mean?


Not to judge or stereotype, but is there are truth to the notion that Europeans are more "flexible" about the concept of fidelity as a part of marriage?


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

soca70 said:


> I agree as I think death of STBX would be easier to deal with than this as terrible as that sounds.


Agree with Soca70


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Awakening2012 said:


> Not to judge or stereotype, but is there are truth to the notion that Europeans are more "flexible" about the concept of fidelity as a part of marriage?


That's the claim, that it's more tolerated, especially in the country I am in. 

This is very true in the public sphere. It's much less scandalous and famous people don't typically lose jobs over it. 

But infidelity still wrecks lives and families here as much as it does in the US. 

Americans prize truth as an ideal, honesty as a virtue, and transparency as a necessity. We require those things and we are very hurt by these aspects of infidelity. I use the word "betrayal" over here in reference to the affair, and some people think it's too strong. (The cheaters mainly.) Where I live marriage counseling is sort of a new concept. It's not native.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Staystrong,
> 
> Why isn't posOM buying her a car?


Long story Conrad.

Basically, I am technically obliged to pay her back 50% of the money she spent from her own account during our marriage. She had a higher amount than I did prior to marriage (due in part to a kind first H during their divorce), and I'd owe her half of the difference because that money was spent during marriage. She's waiving that obligation in part because she feels bad about what she's done and in part because she just wants to move on. So as a trade, I'm waiving certain rights to community property such as the car. The car is not high value anyway. 

The other reason she has the car is because we bought it from her mother. So in my wife's head that makes it her car. It's stupid and illogical, and I'd fight it if not for the reason stated above.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Speaking of POSOM, I saw him today. I had to go to their new place with D6 to fetch the car key. Normally D6 was supposed to go inside and get it, but POSOM made a point of coming out to the gate to give it her with me standing there. I think that's his way of saying he's not scared of me even though I beat him down on Valentine's day. He also made a point to be sweet with D6 and touch her shoulder. Grrr...

I was looking at him and thinking he's not good looking. He just looks like a scoundrel to me. My friend's wife had seen him prior to the A and said he as cute but I don't get it. He's got a little bit of ruggedness going for him but he's got giant crow's feet from smoking and being in the sun. So a slight manly look but not really. He just looks like a big piece of shyt to me. Oh, and the street they live on is ugly too.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Speaking of POSOM, I saw him today. I had to go to their new place with D6 to fetch the car key. Normally D6 was supposed to go inside and get it, but POSOM made a point of coming out to the gate to give it her with me standing there. I think that's his way of saying he's not scared of me even though I beat him down on Valentine's day. He also made a point to be sweet with D6 and touch her shoulder. Grrr...
> 
> I was looking at him and thinking he's not good looking. He just looks like a scoundrel to me. My friend's wife had seen him prior to the A and said he as cute but I don't get it. He's got a little bit of ruggedness going for him but he's got giant crow's feet from smoking and being in the sun. So a slight manly look but not really. He just looks like a big piece of shyt to me. Oh, and the street they live on is ugly too.


They are seldom better looking, I wish I had a dollor for every man that has come up to me and said he's having an affair on you with that? They just dont get it. I get it, I got it on the last one who was 8 years older than me and abut 70lbs heaver. Its about what ever ego stoking need they have being met by that person.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

SS - The car key thing sounds like a hassle. Is it not possible to get a copy made, to alleviate interaction around that? Why can't she use OM's car? Is there any way to put an end to that shared car scenario? You don't need that aggravation.

Best, A12


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

QUOTE
Right before we were splitting our funds a Xmas check from her grandmother came, addressed to all of us. 

I noticed that she swiped it without saying anything - to keep it all for herself. So I got in her purse and took the cash equivalent of 1/2 the check. Then told her about it.

So terrible. How dare I be so rotten. 


Z,

Cyndi Lauper - True Colors - YouTube


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS
"Well I don't really want you to know where I live."

What happened to the kiss she gallivanted about the other day?

By your post (money, her ex) seems this is pattern for her

Be cautious about POSOM...nothing would be better for them

to toss your butt in jail and sing "cry me a river" songs by the fire


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Awakening2012 said:


> SS - The car key thing sounds like a hassle. Is it not possible to get a copy made, to alleviate interaction around that? Why can't she use OM's car? Is there any way to put an end to that shared car scenario? You don't need that aggravation.
> 
> Best, A12



Frankly, I just need to buy a car. But it's a hassle - haven't found a decent one yet in the used car section.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> SS
> "Well I don't really want you to know where I live."
> 
> What happened to the kiss she gallivanted about the other day?
> ...


Ironically, "Cry Me A River" is a song they actually perform together. 

As is "True Colors".

I'm not joking. 

I think the kiss in the dream thing is probably just weird emanation from her mind. Maybe she was ovulating and I looked good that day and it worked its way into her dream. Maybe part of her misses me and wants to heal me. Maybe it's her way of a saying a heartfelt goodbye to me. Maybe it's her mind 'forgiving' me for the wrongs I've made. Who knows?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I've been thinking about what it means to remain centered. 

The meds are helping me look back and review my own actions.

In-your-face infidelity is really painful, limbo is painful, false R is painful, separation is painful - especially when these things happen very quickly after one another (all within two months in my case). When my wife told she that she had daydreamed about having a baby with OM, it was hard as hell to hear, but I remained committed to the idea that we would stay together. Later, as I felt her slipping away, composure was slipping too. The anger comes. Having my kids crying at home for their mom particularly sent me over the edge. Her wanting to move into another apartment with POSOM and take the kids to Disneyworld - all before any sort of legal separation was in place - was what started the war in my head. Cannon balls started flying. I was seething at the very thought of her.

It was far beyond 'I'm not okay with that'. 

I could keep composure 80% of the time but it's that 20% which gets you. Yelling, name calling, saying hurtful things, even some physical violence, basically going 'emotionally off the deep end' as Conrad puts it. Though I suppose it's not uncommon for people people to start throwing plates around, both literally and figuratively. 

So she had every right to say 'I'M not okay with THAT".


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

just remember the yelling and throwing dishes will not get you anywhere!! My stbxh loved to do that along with punching holes in the walls. All I learned to do was tune him out. It will validate her choices. dont give her that. Im so sorry you and your children have had to endure this, stay strong for them....


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Keep that reflection on you. Whether she could have used the I'm not ok line or not doesn't matter.

All that matters is that in reflection you are not ok with it. The simple fact we can reflect that way means we will come out of this better.

So you screwed up. Don't we all. Only difference is do we learn from it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

doureallycare2 said:


> just remember the yelling and throwing dishes will not get you anywhere!! My stbxh loved to do that along with punching holes in the walls. All I learned to do was tune him out. It will validate her choices. dont give her that. Im so sorry you and your children have had to endure this, stay strong for them....


In my own defense, I'm not a plate thrower or a wall puncher.

I slammed my wife against the wall once, I slapped her once, and I beat up her OM. These are post D-day events. And all of these are inexcusable acts even if I told you what provoked them. All I can say is that I was pushed to the edge and in those moments I reacted very emotionally. So I do have some issues with anger - the caveman in my came out during those times.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



staystrong said:


> In my own defense, I'm not a plate thrower or a wall puncher.
> 
> I slammed my wife against the wall once, I slapped her once, and I beat up her OM. These are post D-day events. And all of these are inexcusable acts even if I told you what provoked them. All I can say is that I was pushed to the edge and in those moments I reacted very emotionally. So I do have some issues with anger - the caveman in my came out during those times.


You need therapy for your anger issues. Unless she attacked you with a deadly weapon there is absolutely no reason to hit a woman.

That's all I will say about this subject because honestly I'm better off.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

It's definitely something I want to talk about with a professional.

All I can say is that it would not have happened if I had been on medication. I really mean that. I was not in a 'normal' state of mind. Not even a normal angry state of mind. Far from it. It's something I've never experienced before in my life. You feel like your life is being ripped to shreds. She was destroying everything that was my life (our marriage, our family, our future, our children's innocence, my job, my security in her country, etc.). And she had done this before, with her first H. In that moment, I saw her as a monster.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Z,

I put forward the idea of family therapy to help create a constructive parenting plan and resolved some underlying communication issues, and my STBX was hesitant but says she'll consider it (that means "no" probably). She thinks it's a ploy to get her into couple's counselling. I told her we could do it on the phone and in separate locations.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Was re-reading "Not Just Friends" tonight. It is so spot on. 

It's something I was trying to get my STBX to read, and oddly enough, during the week of False R, when I had a chance to do it, I did not. I was reading Zillard's thread again and saw the affect it had on his wife and that helped her "get it". It didn't change her mind but it put things in perspective. I still think his wife will fold one day and seek to join him and DD out of state.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I've been entertaining the idea of going as dark as possible. Our current custody schedule means that we don't have to see each other in person if we take out the mid-week exchange (something that is already causing problems). 

Dark to me means no phone calls unless it's urgent.

It means emails and text messages only. No gmail chat unless urgent.

It means no tweaking of the schedule and tit for tat collaboration. I'm already tired of this. It means very limited coordination concerning the kids. I'm at the point where I just don't want to communicate with her any more. I just want her out of my life. This experience has f'ed me up in the head and I would prefer to think of her as dead in my life. Maybe that will help me move on because I am not moving on otherwise. Maybe today is just hard because I went to the Big City with the D6 and D3 and it was exhausting. And it was depressing. Going to the park and seeing all those families there was really tough.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

SS

I never answered the phone from my WW.

I never returned a text unless about the kids.

If she tried to slip a how r u in?

No response. You should disappear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Good plan........keep it emails only. Emergency with kids...phone of course. Set boundary of what is an emergency. As for mid-week.....you can transfer without speaking. She has non-emergency comment...email it. Or recommend snail mail (lol). It is your choice and she has to respect it. If she does not...well use Conrad's reply.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Sometimes I don't know whether to follow my intuition or whether to follow the 180 or NC rules. 

Shouldn't you be 'civil or cordial' in front of the kids? Not speaking doesn't sound very civil. Invariably some kind of inquiries will come about the kids, and you'll have to respond.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

But its only about the kids, of course be civil. But there's no need for idle chit chat or talking about anything else. I have told X there will be no discussions of anything in front of D, except for D. Whether he obliges is on him but that is my boundary now. 

What was the purpose of reading "just friends"? What purpose would it serve now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

familyfirst09 said:


> But its only about the kids, of course be civil. But there's no need for idle chit chat or talking about anything else. I have told X there will be no discussions of anything in front of D, except for D. Whether he obliges is on him but that is my boundary now.
> 
> What was the purpose of reading "just friends"? What purpose would it serve now?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm seriously thinking about writing her a note that says I never want to see her again. The thought of never seeing her again is quite a relief at this point. 

FF, there's no reason to read NJF again. It was just a random occurence after reading some of Zillards thread. BUT .. it did made me think that perhaps my STBX and POSOM are more of the variety found in that book's examples, as opposed to the variety found creeping around on this site. You know, the trickle-truthing blameshifting egomaniacs.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Sometimes I don't know whether to follow my intuition or whether to follow the 180 or NC rules.
> 
> Shouldn't you be 'civil or cordial' in front of the kids? Not speaking doesn't sound very civil. Invariably some kind of inquiries will come about the kids, and you'll have to respond.


Yes. Be cordial in front of the kids. Always. 

That does not mean engaging in friendly chit chat if you don't want to. I intentionally get distracted by D7 or give short acknowledgements that don't open up the conversation.



staystrong said:


> I'm seriously thinking about writing her a note that says I never want to see her again. The thought of never seeing her again is quite a relief at this point.


No note. You have children. Never seeing her again is likely impossible and wishful thinking. Sending a note like that will not accomplish much constructively and show her your emotional turmoil.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Z,
> 
> I put forward the idea of family therapy to help create a constructive parenting plan and resolved some underlying communication issues, and my STBX was hesitant but says she'll consider it (that means "no" probably). She thinks it's a ploy to get her into couple's counselling. I told her we could do it on the phone and in separate locations.


You sign up. There are always things you can learn about being a better parent, communicator, and co-parent through this. 

Then invite her. Don't leave the decision to improve up to her - leave her level of involvement up to her. 

I found the psych for D7 and initiated. X followed my lead and participates (usually).


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> I'm seriously thinking about writing her a note that says I never want to see her again. The thought of never seeing her again is quite a relief at this point.


I'll drop the redwood forest on your head if you send that.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

:rofl: 

:iagree:


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

What is my objective at this point? 

I was thinking about stopping my thread because I don't have much of a direction, and it mostly winds up me moaning about the past.

I think I started my thread here way too late. There's probably not enough wood in Canada for all the slip ups I've already made. I feel like the other dude won, and I sort of went crazy in the process. I want to concentrate on a second life or something. Or say goodbye to this previous relationship in a symbolic way. I need focus (besides work and taking care of the kids).


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

That last line made me laugh Zappy. Thanks. 

So here it is.. the final analysis is I feel robbed.

First year of our relationship was long distance.
Second year I was in grad school and very busy. 
Third year we were married and having first child. 
Fourth year was struggle job wise but happy little family.
Fifth year was good with move to USA.
Sixth year was arrival of second child. 
Seventh year back in Europe and living with MIL. 
Eighth year moved to our own place, affair started soon after. 

We had 5 moves during 8 years, two of which were transatlantic. We did not have a lot of couple time since we had kids fairly early on. 
Living with MIL for one year was nice, but grew old since we needed our own place. 

As you can see, young kids, new jobs, big moves, living with MIL.. all stressful events. These are sex-reduced times as well, especially the living with MIL year on the same floor of the house. (Wife had to scream into a pillow when she orgasmed).

So it was a lot of stress for me and my wife, even if overall it was very happy family times. POSOM was a total removal from that stress. It was carefree, going out, romance, sharing intimacy, etc. 

The kids were just turning the corner of being completely dependent to having some self-sufficiency. I was there for all the hard work years. Changing diapers, infant flus, etc. 

And now... she and POSOM have dates all the time when the kids are with me. The kids don't need as much attention, and life is easier. Wife is entering sexual peal. We were turning the corner, my and I, and POSOM entered the scene.

She left me for him just as things were getting stable. She has the nerve to say the affair taught her 'what's missing' in our relationship. What was missing was some time for ourselves and fun times. 

Me? I honestly don't know what to do.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

What was missing was her fidelity and respect for you. Her victim chair reasoning was to justify her actions. As long as you have the children and she is out and about with the POS....living a fantasy....you come out the winner. May not seem that way now but it will as time goes by.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

We split the kids 50/50

But I'm finding it hard to manage by myself to be honest. 

Part of it is chemical - the effectiveness of the meds varies week to week. Some days are fine, but I missed a couple of doses and it really had an effect. Before the crisis, my normal operational capacity was a 6 to 8 on a scale of one to ten. Now it's more like a 3 to 4. 

For the welfare of the kids, I'm considering asking my wife to take them more days. At least in the short-term, until I feel well. Maybe I will have to move to the Big City and see them only every other weekend.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

If it can help you in the long run....that may be a good idea. But the time you are along (grandma always said this and lol was always right)....idle time is the devil's workshop.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I agree with Chuck, SS, idle time is the enemy.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Good point. 

Just a walk in the park today with the D's perked things up. 

And who am I kidding? I'd be lost without them. 

It's really a death, isn't it? This whole divorce thing. It's very, very hard - I really had no idea. I miss my life so much right now. I think D6 does too. I want to provide her with a good life and a 'mother' for the time they are away from their own mom.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Agree -- this kind of loss is very much like a death.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> It's really a death, isn't it? This whole divorce thing. It's very, very hard - I really had no idea.


Definitely. This has shaken me to the core - even more so than the deaths of two of my brothers. Not to minimize their importance at all. One was my best friend - we were 2 years apart and inseparable.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Time with D's seem wonderful now. But wait until 2033.

They are married with own children.

Then goose bumps appear as you recall.

As for exW...fantasy seems fast and fleeting


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

zillard said:


> Definitely. This has shaken me to the core - even more so than the deaths of two of my brothers. Not to minimize their importance at all. One was my best friend - we were 2 years apart and inseparable.


Zillard, I've always wondered how you were able to cope as well as you did throughout your ordeal. I'm guessing your brothers' deaths meant you had learned in part how to deal with emotional crises. I'm glad you are moving back to be around family. I do believe your wife may try to reunite with you one day. 

Yes, I've read that infidelity plus divorce is more painful than anything else, except for the death of a spouse. I've read it's even more painful than the death of a child. I tend to agree it would be, scary as that notion is. 

The thing that kills me right now is that we never really got far in MC or deep dialogue during that week of False R. It would have helped set a positive tone for our recovery or separation. I think it would have really helped my wife and myself if we had read "Not Just Friends" together and tried to answer some of the questions put forth in the book. I don't think my wife really understood the psychology of her own experience and that it was "okay" to feel some of the things she felt, e.g. ambivalence about the marriage at that point. I think reading the book would have at least given her a framework in which to think about things. Her decision was so hasty - she just gave up, in part because she thought she could not be honest anymore in our relationship. I think she was afraid to face really looking at us and our relationship and the affair. All I wanted was some time to explore that with her and to give it a chance, at least to understand what happened. We're both compassionate people, I was surprised she could not do more in that regard. She could not even give us the time to really process it. If OM was real, he would be waiting I told her; we need to do this for ourselves and for our kids. It was the most trying time of my life and in hindsight I should've done more. Pulled out the photo book, taken her on a trip, something. I didn't want to be 'pushy'; that was the advice I had received. The chaos which ensued was so damaging to me and the kids. It's something she recognized recently with her comment that she put blinders on and went through things too fast and hard. She said she recognized the pain she caused me but did not want me to talk about it with her because it would help me move on. (It's probably more for her benefit to not talk about it.) By her own admission, we were *deeply* in love, a "great couple". People are SHOCKED we're getting divorced. I'm in a great deal of pain on a daily basis still b/c I do feel she was the one for me. The emotional intimacy we shared was wonderful - to think she is deeply intimate with someone else now breaks my heart every day. I feel like a chick when I write this stuff, but I've never felt like anybody like the way I felt about her. To have a life intertwined with someone like that and then it is uprooted in a single month is pure hell. Pure f'ing hell. I fear the day she tells me she is pregnant. Jesus, that could be any day now. I still sleep in the same bed with D3 (and sometimes D6) each night and I wake up each morning to see my wife's face in D3's face staring right at me. It's hard to fathom that this is my life now. Part of me has definitely died inside and it is hard for me to move on. 

Chuck, are you sure about that 98% figure?  If that were true, wouldn't we see more reconciled couples? Maybe the definition of 'runner' is specific to a certain group.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I used the "I'm not okay with that" and "I'm sorry you feel that way" last night and it worked like a charm. The STBX had wanted to get the car back early but I was still using it. She threw a fit - I finally heard the Frostine-esque venom coming from her - and I stayed cool as a cucumber. This morning a nice text telling me where she parked the car and 'have a nice day'. 

They are very well crafted phrases. Could have used them months ago! It was great to not get 'sucked in' and let myself get angry as a result.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

"Chuck, are you sure about that 98% figure? If that were true, wouldn't we see more reconciled couples? Maybe the definition of 'runner' is specific to a certain group."


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

danmit..... QUOTE
"Chuck, are you sure about that 98% figure? If that were true, wouldn't we see more reconciled couples? Maybe the definition of 'runner' is specific to a certain group."

SS-98% at one time return seeking another chance. Now what % is told to fock off....whole different variable. I am in that %. From what I have heard....roughly 2/3 are beyond repair when it comes around. But point is....spouse may be told to fock off now but....who says they could not five years later? Past loves....lol....big part of my three book novel. Yeah it could very well happen.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I'm sure TAM provides a lot of material for those novels.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-No the book is based on a friend's life experiences. He asked me to write it in the summer of 2010. It was meant to be one book but so much info, it turned into three.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Right on, Chuck. You got the talent.

Earlier you said:
"As for exW...fantasy seems fast and fleeting" 

You referring to your ex?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> I used the "I'm not okay with that" and "I'm sorry you feel that way" last night and it worked like a charm. The STBX had wanted to get the car back early but I was still using it. She threw a fit - I finally heard the Frostine-esque venom coming from her - and I stayed cool as a cucumber. This morning a nice text telling me where she parked the car and 'have a nice day'.
> 
> They are very well crafted phrases. Could have used them months ago! It was great to not get 'sucked in' and let myself get angry as a result.


*Excuse me while I stand and applaud!!!*


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

:smthumbup:

Good Job SS! Small step in the right direction... Empowering isn't it? And look how she responds the next day.

Its a sick game on the surface, but once you begin implenting these Manly responses... it starts making sense.

Welcome,

ReGroup Recovering Doormat Since 2008


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

There's something great about the phrases themselves. 

The wording of them, that is. There's nothing about them that is aggressive, which makes it hard to be reactionary to them. The whole wording of it screws with their heads!


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-I was referring to your w/ex in her current identity and most likely outcome


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS 

Wish I had used those words lately with Frostine. Earned me TWO loads of lumber from Conrad.

You're doing great, amigo. 

ReGroup, I love the Recovering Doormat line.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

TAM Heavy Hitters -

You guys tend to espouse the Respect Thyself / Red Pill / MMSL / NMMNG/ Anti-Doormat / Man-up approach. 

Dr. Harley of "Surviving an Affair" asks that BS not do anything which could diminish love (by way of anger, namecalling, etc.) and should even strive to demonstrate their love in the face of betraya. Something that could be considered doormatting on this forum, but it is a strategy that Harley would normally endorse all the way up to divorce court. 

It seems to me that the TAM approach puts focus on self-respect whereas the Harley approach focuses on 'cherishing' the spouse, competing with the affair partner, and taking the high road. Basically, nice-ing the wayward out of the affair, something which is a real no-no here. 

Are the strategies promoted strongly on TAM more successful than those promoted by Dr. Harley? How do we know? Maybe those strategies are successful if you are 'coached' properly. (PS - I should mention that Harley is pro-exposure as well). Harley seems to think most affairs die off, even the relatively severe combined-type affairs. 

I've seen Harley speak (on video) and he doesn't strike me as a guy who thinks people should't stand up for themselves. He doesn't always recommend reconciliation. It seems that his belief is that the goodness of good people will prevail if the right measures are taken. Is TAM disproportionately full of more horror stories and irreconcilable marriages than the population at large?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I should also add that Harley tends to place the blame of a wife's affair on the betrayed spouse, which, if you read closely enough, the same is true from Athol Kay's perspective. Creating the 'environment' for the affair that is.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> I should also add that Harley tends to place the blame of a wife's affair on the betrayed spouse, which, if you read closely enough, the same is true from Athol Kay's perspective. Creating the 'environment' for the affair that is.


If he believes in exposure, I believe you're reading him wrong.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Maybe.

He believes in both. He thinks respectful exposure is very important, but if that doesn't work, he doesn't think you should abandon ship.

His own research tells him that most affairs burn off within two years, so he will advise clients to hold off on from divorce up to that point if they can. That's if the WS doesn't initiate it, of course. 

He gives an extreme example of a wife who moves out to be with her lover, moves back in with hubby, leaves again, then moves back in to her own home and gets the husband to leave, and then moves back with lover, and then that falls apart. 

It's an interesting approach, his Plan A and Plan B. So opposite of what is taught here. 

You can see what I'm getting at. 

There's a lot of competing advice out there.

Maybe I'm highly suggestible but it makes me feel a bit guilty for the anger and bitterness I displayed once she moved out after False R. (Dr. Harley recommends medication frequently, by the way). We're inclined to paint the WS as self-centered remorseless evil doers but they must have their own thing going on in their head which is worthy of us understanding.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Mr Harley can believe what he wants to believe.

I don't believe you can nice them back. 

Here's my credit card so you can start a new life with the OM.

FTS

I believe in the teachings of the Book of Tam.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Maybe.
> 
> He believes in both. He thinks respectful exposure is very important, but if that doesn't work, he doesn't think you should abandon ship.
> 
> ...


SStrong,

I don't think Harley believes codependent behavior is loving.

That's likely where this disconnect lies.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

"Book of Tam" That's funny GP

I probably mischaracterized it as "nicing the way out of an affair". It's more than that. 

Conrad, from what I've read, he believes there is a codependency myth which needs to be busted: 
How the Co-dependency Movement Is Ruining Marriages

"If you want to know the truth, co-dependent beliefs and behavior do not lead to anxiety. They lead to healthy, happy marriages. "


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> "Book of Tam" That's funny GP
> 
> I probably mischaracterized it as "nicing the way out of an affair". It's more than that.
> 
> ...


Yet, an endless parade of #3's leads to what - exactly?

If both people are detached and secure in themelves, and choose to love daily and bring their A-game?

Healthy attachment.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Gut Punch ... Lol.

SS, take it from me - all that nice'ing stuff doesn't work. You don't have to be a d*ck but you must command respect. The doormat non sense got us here in the first place. Try something different.

Just remember what happened with your wife yesterday - that's not an accident.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ReGroup said:


> Gut Punch ... Lol.
> 
> SS, take it from me - all that nice'ing stuff doesn't work. You don't have to be a d*ck but you must command respect. The doormat non sense got us here in the first place. Try something different.
> 
> ...


I read the first few lines of Harley's article.

He's not differentiating between #2 and #3.

Mother Theresa was not engaged in a life of #3's.

She got deep satisfaction out of her work.

So, it's the same term (codependence)... but he means different things.

I actually think healthy relationships have a huge area of "#2's".

But, it must be mutual.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

#3's the silent relationship killer.

I'd love to know how many relationships out there are truly healthy. 

Without knowing this stuff you'd just unknowingly make the same mistake over and over again - thinking that Other Stuff - was the problem.

I have seen 2 MC's and neither one mentioned the stuff I hear here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

It's an interesting article. He's basically saying codependency is a misapplied label. I've brought this up before (defensively, I'll admit), but now I'm looking at it more objectively. 

I think what I like about Harley's philosophy is that it is very simple: do things that produce loving feelings, don't do things that don't. Even in the face of an affair. Because ultimately what you need to do is have the spouse maintain a subconscious and conscious attraction to you. Don't be somebody they don't want to be with even if you think you have the 'right' to be mad as heck. Because the WS's feelings will change over time, back and forth even. If you want them back, exercise patience.

It's similar to your idea of being a rock, Conrad. Don't be disrespectful, upset or angry. 

He recommends taking a vacation with your WS after D-Day to separate them from the AP. That might be considered 'rewarding the affair' here.

He does NOT recommend demanding or expecting a remorseful apology from the WS. Let it come when it comes. He basically says it will decrease the love you are trying to build back together. I found that very interesting. 

BUT he gets results. So the question is if it works, why does it work? Because on TAM those things are said not to work.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Vacation?

Where you allow texting and communication with posOM?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ReGroup said:


> #3's the silent relationship killer.
> 
> I'd love to know how many relationships out there are truly healthy.
> 
> ...


You realize MC's have the highest divorce rate of all professions.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Regroup - I hear you, but the guy gets results. That has to be explained somehow. 

Conrad - No, he believes in No Contact, with an understanding of slip-ups. He also advises radical honesty in the recovery process, and if the WS continues to deceive then you may allow it for a bit (if know about it) but then you basically switch to Plan B which is to go dark, dark, dark with a parting letter stating that you love them but won't enable the affair.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I'll add that I had considered going this route but found it too difficult to hold back my anger and frustrations. I didn't have Dr. H as my personal therapist, mind you.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Positive Reinforcement to Poor Behavior results in what? I'm sure you can guess...


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Vacation?
> 
> Where you allow texting and communication with posOM?


I've been on one of those vacations. Uggh!


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-Good bet she would be tied to her cell and skype acting as a sixteen year old "in love for the first time"

When you break through the walls...you do it for you. If you do it to win her back the effort is not 100%. You know it and she knows it. Nothing worthwhile in life comes easy.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Ah, so there's the catch, ReGroup. You're not reinforcing bad behavior which occurs post D-Day but you aren't writing off the affair as completely bad behaviour on her part. Often the WS is not looking to have an affair, and they feel very conflicted once in it. 

Dr. Harley wants you to see how you (in many cases) helped create an environment for the affair. This is where it gets controversial for the BS looking at this info for the first time ("what me? i'm not the one who cheated") but we all know that most of us here contributed in part to the affair. Me not being the provider, GutPunch not being romantic enough, you becoming too beta-ized or whatever. 

It goes back to what Zillard was talking about in another thread. Your subjective reality vs the WS's subjective reality. Fine, you want to scream your head off about how they are rewriting marital history, blameshifting and the like? That's not going to get you anywhere because they don't see it that way. Not yet, maybe not for a while. The fog has to lift in order for that to happen. 

Which do you want more? To be in the right or to save your marriage and be in love again?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Conrad - No, he believes in No Contact, with an understanding of slip-ups. He also advises radical honesty in the recovery process, and if the WS continues to deceive then you may allow it for a bit (if know about it) but then you basically switch to Plan B which is to go dark, dark, dark with a parting letter stating that you love them but won't enable the affair.


Sounds like he agrees with us.

The affair must be crushed.

Strange that so many are hesitant to be "make them mad"

Gee, I wonder if codependence really "is" a problem?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> SS-Good bet she would be tied to her cell and skype acting as a sixteen year old "in love for the first time"
> 
> When you break through the walls...you do it for you. If you do it to win her back the effort is not 100%. You know it and she knows it. Nothing worthwhile in life comes easy.


Oh, you wouldn't let her have her cell. At least I wouldn't.. I'd make it a condition. He's not against setting conditions. 

BUT .. you do avoid talking about the affair as much as possible. Don't dig into the details and churn things up. Not early on. Maybe not for a while. 

Anyhow, I recommend reading his book Surviving An Affair. He can say it better than I can. It's a whole different approach, and he claims good results. I don't know if it's true or not.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Fundamentally, the approach isn't different.

The difference is terminology.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Sounds like he agrees with us.
> 
> The affair must be crushed.
> 
> ...



He agrees on some things, not others. There are some very important distinctions. No one would here would recommend a strategy in which you might wait around for 18 months to see if your wife's affair burns out. He would.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

staystrong said:


> He agrees on some things, not others. There are some very important distinctions. No one would here would recommend a strategy in which you might wait around for 18 months to see if your wife's affair burns out. He would.


18 months? Jeez i'd be remarried and divorced again in that kind of time


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> He agrees on some things, not others. There are some very important distinctions. No one would here would recommend a strategy in which you might wait around for 18 months to see if your wife's affair burns out. He would.


It's up to the individual.

Too Little Too Late was separated for 30 months.

Once it was clear she was interviewing for posOM#2, it was time for him.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> It's up to the individual.
> 
> Too Little Too Late was separated for 30 months.
> 
> Once it was clear she was interviewing for posOM#2, it was time for him.


In the example in the Harley book, WS was living with OM and it finally fizzled out. OM couldn't meet her financial needs and she was depressed about breaking up the family. She was getting pressure from the kids. 

Harley believes almost all affairs burn out within 2 years. Most within 6 months. However, I think his figures are based on a person using his techniques.

'Course, it could just be a scam to sell books to brokenhearted BS's.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> In the example in the Harley book, WS was living with OM and it finally fizzled out. OM couldn't meet her financial needs and she was depressed about breaking up the family. She was getting pressure from the kids.
> 
> Harley believes almost all affairs burn out within 2 years. Most within 6 months. However, I think his figures are based on a person using his techniques.
> 
> 'Course, it could just be a scam to sell books to brokenhearted BS's.


Of course they burn out.

BUT - if you don't work on your own attractiveness, the next move is posOM#2.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

True, true.

I guess Harley's advice is don't burn any bridges. Amongst the heartfelt things I've said, I've said some very hurtful and dumb things, most of which I didn't mean. It's hard to remain in control when you know your wife is banging some other guy and is intent on breaking up your family at lightning speed.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> True, true.
> 
> I guess Harley's advice is don't burn any bridges. Amongst the heartfelt things I've said, I've said some very hurtful and dumb things, most of which I didn't mean. It's hard to remain in control when you know your wife is banging some other guy and is intent on breaking up your family at lightning speed.


And, if you don't conquer your #3's and resulting codependence, your words will not be wrapped in love.

They'll be wrapped in anger.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

So here's the difference, Conrad et al.

In Harvey's example the BH took back the WW no questions asked. He "graciously accepted" to use Harley's words. 

And then he poured on the love units...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> So here's the difference, Conrad et al.
> 
> In Harvey's example the BH took back the WW no questions asked. He "graciously accepted" to use Harley's words.
> 
> And then he poured on the love units...


Once she had cut off all contact with posOM.

There's the rub.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-I will take a pass on the book. If my ex cheated, game over.

Walked away from M, supercedes cheating. Again...game over.

But as she said several times in the past

I was an a-hole, simply by holding people accountable


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Once she had cut off all contact with posOM.
> 
> There's the rub.


And of course my question with that would be how can you be sure that all contact was really cut off. My STBXH showed me an angry and hurt letter from the OW on how much he was going to regret breaking it off with her and how if she couldnt have him no one can. It was real... but some time after that (not sure how long) he started contacting her again.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Good point DYRC, that is the reality for some people. It just won't die, and eventually you'd have to say bye. 

To Conrad, yes for a man such as yourself I don't think you'd be able to accept being Plan B. The question is if it's really Plan B or is that the person finally wakes up and realizes their mistake? That sometimes is the reality. 

To Chuck, I can see you leaving nothing but tire marks on the driveway!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

doureallycare2 said:


> And of course my question with that would be how can you be sure that all contact was really cut off. My STBXH showed me an angry and hurt letter from the OW on how much he was going to regret breaking it off with her and how if she couldnt have him no one can. It was real... but some time after that (not sure how long) he started contacting her again.


And, that's when you love yourself enough to let them go.

Enabling that behavior is a rather large #3.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-Little story....my two g/f from high school and through college. Dated each year(s) before first break up. Everything seems grandiose when you first get back together. A bit of time passes and when you return to the comfort zone, the 'trust snake' appears. It did me each time, textbook.

Each time they were never the same. My first love and I chat on FB sometimes. I honestly pity her. My second was different. We dated off and on for about two years after the first three years (in middle was the break up). I still loved her but emotions had changed. FWB...oh yes, we were both guilty of this. I kept asking myself why can't I feel the way I once did about her. One day I realized...forever does not lie with her. We argued like a couple yet were not one. We took a vacation (always wanted to walk with her on beach at night) and for a week....it felt like we had just met. But a vacation is not reality. I dropped her off after the vacation and two days later she received a notebook (was planned before vacation). In short it said thank you for the millions of great memories but I can not see myself with you five years down the road.

That was July '96. Near the end of the year she called, we went out. After the date, I hugged her as a friend and that was it. I still care about her to this day. But we are totally different people now.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

I've gone the "TAM way" with my ex. I suppose when they move in with AP, (it's been 7 months) it's hard to imagine not filing D. Honestly, I have yet to fully detach. It's strange, I can't imagine taking her back, but still hold out a sliver of hope that she'll have a change of heart. My daily goal is to detach completely since having ANY hope hurts, if you know what I mean.

Situation now is that both she and AP are out of work, $30,000 in debt and are moving to another, much cheaper, much trashier apartment. His ex is taking him back to court trying to get more money. A complete train wreck. 

So, does it draw them closer together? Us against the world? Or split them apart? I read this thread about Dr. Harley, and I'm a little tempted to be more communicative with her. I've been 180 since August. IMO, we have to pick a strategy and go with it. In the beginning if I had taken Harley's advice and not filed and waited it out, I would be sticking with that (wow 18 months - 2yrs!). Now, I'm divorced, so I'll just stay dark and keep detaching in the hope that soon I just won't care at all what she does.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Wait.. Chuck, it felt like you had just met then you dropped her? I don't get it.

In "Not Just Friends", the author talks about how so many times she has heard wives give their husbands the ILYBINILWY speech. They don't feel like they can love their husbands anymore and the cheating must be a sign of that. That's what my wife thought... well, if she cheated then it's not meant to be. Couples do bounce back if they can do some heavy lifting; they have to recognize that comparing the AP and the BS is not a fair comparison, and that making a decision to leave early is not wise. (The author recommends 3 months.) The author quotes 50% of marriages will stay in place if both parties are highly committed, 25% if only one is highly committed. Having the right therapist can greatly help, having the wrong one can put a marriage in the ground.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> I've gone the "TAM way" with my ex. I suppose when they move in with AP, (it's been 7 months) it's hard to imagine not filing D. Honestly, I have yet to fully detach. It's strange, I can't imagine taking her back, but still hold out a sliver of hope that she'll have a change of heart. My daily goal is to detach completely since having ANY hope hurts, if you know what I mean.
> 
> Situation now is that both she and AP are out of work, $30,000 in debt and are moving to another, much cheaper, much trashier apartment. His ex is taking him back to court trying to get more money. A complete train wreck.
> 
> So, does it draw them closer together? Us against the world? Or split them apart? I read this thread about Dr. Harley, and I'm a little tempted to be more communicative with her. I've been 180 since August. IMO, we have to pick a strategy and go with it. In the beginning if I had taken Harley's advice and not filed and waited it out, I would be sticking with that (wow 18 months - 2yrs!). Now, I'm divorced, so I'll just stay dark and keep detaching in the hope that soon I just won't care at all what she does.


Harley's plan is also a way to detach. He says that if you follow the Plan A and Plan B you're basically giving it all you got and will learn to unlove her if it falls through. Basically your tank will run empty. 

I agree that inconsistent strategies wreak havoc.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

maincourse99 said:


> I've gone the "TAM way" with my ex. I suppose when they move in with AP, (it's been 7 months) it's hard to imagine not filing D. Honestly, I have yet to fully detach. It's strange, I can't imagine taking her back, but still hold out a sliver of hope that she'll have a change of heart. My daily goal is to detach completely since having ANY hope hurts, if you know what I mean.
> 
> Situation now is that both she and AP are out of work, $30,000 in debt and are moving to another, much cheaper, much trashier apartment. His ex is taking him back to court trying to get more money. A complete train wreck.
> 
> So, does it draw them closer together? Us against the world? Or split them apart? I read this thread about Dr. Harley, and I'm a little tempted to be more communicative with her. I've been 180 since August. IMO, we have to pick a strategy and go with it. In the beginning if I had taken Harley's advice and not filed and waited it out, I would be sticking with that (wow 18 months - 2yrs!). Now, I'm divorced, so I'll just stay dark and keep detaching in the hope that soon I just won't care at all what she does.


People can say what they want to say.

But, Harley is right when he says that unmet emotional needs eventually speak.

Her need for financial security is being compromised by this.

It may not be enough to wreck them, but it's one leg of the stool that's been kicked out from under her.

She feels it.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-Was nothing there any longer. Why stay? After five plus years, you either have it or you don't. But it did make for two upcoming books. Now the kicker....speaking to her for first time since '96 and asking for her reflections in the epilogue LOL


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Zappy, then you should read Harley's book "Surviving an Affair". Dr. Harley's a Christian so you'd probably agree to his concept of marriage as a covenant. I think the risk with his approach is that it can provide false hope, which can delay healing. 

My wife is European grown up in Europe, as is the OM. 

Conrad, that's it.. the unmet emotional needs. My wife and I did not identify those. I did not know how to phrase it at the time and our MC sucked. 

Chuck, okay.. It was just the way you described the vacation made it sound like a spark had occurred.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> SS-Was nothing there any longer. Why stay? After five plus years, you either have it or you don't. But it did make for two upcoming books. Now the kicker....speaking to her for first time since '96 and asking for her reflections in the epilogue LOL


Chuck, are you writing one of those seedy romance novels with a cover of a woman in a torn blouse being held by a shirtless man? On a stallion. In the sunset. Slightly breezy.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_People can say what they want to say.

But, Harley is right when he says that unmet emotional needs eventually speak.

Her need for financial security is being compromised by this.

It may not be enough to wreck them, but it's one leg of the stool that's been kicked out from under her.

She feels it._


I agree with you about the emotional needs. Thing is, my ex has a past of sexual, physical and emotional abuse as a child. That makes her emotional needs very difficult to discern, IMO. I was always open to trying my best to meet those needs, but maybe she didn't know what they were or she couldn't (or wouldn't) articulate them to me. And when I would suggest MC, she would blow it off. 

She spent a week in a psych ward after a breakdown several years ago and they strongly advised her to continue IC, but she didn't. Her strategy was to constantly distract herself.

I guess what I'm driving at is many of us are up against complex situations where we only have a partial knowledge of what our WW is thinking and feeling. Often it seems that they don't know what their doing or what they really want. My ex has waffled repeatedly over the past several months. She texted me 2 weeks ago and said "I just need more time". We're freaking divorced!


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

zappy88200 said:


> SS - I have always doubted how successful a marriage can be if not from the same caste or religion? Like you are American and she was European?
> 
> Do you think it has anything to do with her European Mind-Style?
> 
> ...


I brought this up earlier. I think it causes extra stress and miscommunications. 

I pointed out that some of the other regular posters are interracial or intercultural relationships. It does have an effect in my opinion. Even simple mistranslations in my case.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-There was a spark but remember....it was vacation. And the one thing I wanted to do was end the years on a positive note.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Z- :rofl: No I just lifted a 1983 Iron Maiden album cover! The working title for the last one is A Separate Divide, mainly flashbacks while on vacation while on it. The last part focuses on what went through my mind as we drove the 400 miles home.

But on a lighter note, the next to last night there, I woke up at 3AM nude, legs across back of couch, curtains open and Pink Floyd The Wall on VH-1. Not to mention her panties on top of TV. I stumbled over to kitchen and observed...most of the fifth was gone!

She awoke four hours later. A lot went through my mind in those four hours!


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> I guess what I'm driving at is many of us are up against complex situations where we only have a partial knowledge of what our WW is thinking and feeling. Often it seems that they don't know what their doing or what they really want. My ex has waffled repeatedly over the past several months. She texted me 2 weeks ago and said "I just need more time". We're freaking divorced!


You're divorced, so what? That's not an emotional boundary.

Which is the truer boundary - a political border or a river dividing two lands? In your case the divorce may just be a political border.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

STBX called last night.

She informs me we have an appointment with the police next week as a follow-up to the V-day incident. She says they just want to see if everything is okay. I'll say sure to them but if they ask too many questions I think my memory may get suddenly fuzzy. 

STBX says that since things are not 'messy' between us now, she said it would be okay with her to prolong the divorce in case I needed to. For state benefits and so on. Two weeks ago she was pushing me to get documents to the lawyer. 

She asks 'How are you?' but I always redirect to the kids. 

Conrad, you say these affairs always burn out. I'm holding you to that, man! I just hope hers was not an exit affair. She claims it wasn't.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

They usually burn out.

You have got to let go. 

You have come along way don't backslide

How are U? Your F'n great. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-Anything began in deception, ends in deception


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> They usually burn out.
> 
> You have got to let go.
> 
> ...


Nah, GP, I'm not. I'm deadly afraid of life without her. 

So today she writes an email stating she is deposing her papers next week and when can I do it? I asked her to please clarify, considering last night's message. I hate this change of heart business. Maybe she felt some anxiety as well and then made love to OM and the anxiety went away.

Man, I feel myself starting to panic. I *do not* want to be without her. I kept on hoping she would change her mind.

So to really let go, I have to accept the divorce? I don't want to go through with this. It makes me queasy just to think about it. 

I don't have to grant this divorce, but what's the point? I guess she definitely does want to start a new life with this guy. 

I feel the sky falling again, the withdrawals coming, and my supposed soulmate long gone. I don't know what to do right now.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

What's the best thing I can say right now? What's the worst?


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS Just because you and her D does not mean you can't re-marry down the road. My parents did. She is bonking another guy and purposefully flaunting it. (This is the part where your reach between your legs and make sure they're there.)

You still have your kids. Unconditional love. Your wife made vows and broke them. Your M with her is gone. Still love who she was but that woman is gone. Give Medusa what she wants. You can either move forward or remain in a state of misery. Dig deep......you already know the answer.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Best thing: I love you, I believe your making the biggest mistake of your life that will affect you from now until the day you die and will also affect our children for the rest of their life. However it’s you decision and we will have to live with the fall out.

Worst thing: begging, crying, and not keeping it plain and simple.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Chuck, didn't your parents re-marry shortly after though? And there was no infidelity?

I do know of one couple who remarried after separated/divorced for two years. It was the man who left the wife for an OW.

My wife's father left her mom for an OW many years ago and THEY are still together. My wife left her H for me (well, yes an no) and we are not. I suppose I have no right to cry about it. But this is different - there is a family at stake. 

I don't see her as Medusa. I really don't. I feel it's one of these affair stories where she go swept up, fell in love and when it was time to decide between two men, she chose her lover. And every action I've done since then has probably pushed her away. 

I've just been dragging my feet on the divorce. I have so many pent-up emotions, so many things I'd like to tell her but won't, but I guess I just have to give what she wants. This is the hardest thing I've ever had to do and my soul resists it completely. I guess I have lost and must face facts. I'm miserable, Chuck.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

doureallycare2 said:


> Best thing: I love you, I believe your making the biggest mistake of your life that will affect you from now until the day you die and will also affect our children for the rest of their life. However it’s you decision and we will have to live with the fall out.
> 
> Worst thing: begging, crying, and not keeping it plain and simple.


I've said one version of the Best Thing before. 

I really don't know what to say now. 

No, there will be no begging, crying and pleading. I got that out of my system in the beginning. 

I don't want to be stuck in this town watching her life develop with him. My god, the day she is pushing his baby around in a stroller?

WTF is wrong with her? I feel the anger coming back.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> What's the best thing I can say right now? What's the worst?


Best thing you can say, "It's not what I think is best, but I won't stand in your way"

Worst thing you can say?

Anything other than the best thing


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Chuck, didn't your parents re-marry shortly after though? And there was no infidelity?
> 
> I do know of one couple who remarried after separated/divorced for two years. It was the man who left the wife for an OW.
> 
> ...


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

staystrong said:


> What's the best thing I can say right now? What's the worst?


The best: Nothing.

The worst: Anything.

She's made up her mind. Give her what she wants.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> If you cannot be happy without her, how could you be happy with her? Love thyself.


This. Learn to do it.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Maybe let her know that you still want the marriage to work, but you will move forward sucessfully without her. You have to make a show of strength to her, as you well know, begging and pleading will repel her. 

At the very least it might give you a sense of control, and even though you're hurting like he** you don't want her knowing that. I guess just project an image of being in control of yourself and strength and that you're on the road to healing.

But, you're still planting the seed that you want it to work out with you and her. 

Those are the things I did and it almost immediately softened my ex's attitude toward me. When I was in begging mode, she was very cold and irritated. It remains to be seen whether she will consider R after her affair ends, but it definitely started me on the path to healing.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Agh. Conflicting advice. I will sleep on it. 

I guess it's finally coming to an official end. The best years of my life - my marriage - is over. Wow, this is painful. Wow Wow wow...

It will be a whole week until I see the girls again. Bad timing for this emphatic news.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> If you cannot be happy without her, how could you be happy with her?


Because she was my love, and I want to be with my love.

It's the same reason she left me. She wanted to be with her love. 

It's as simple as that.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS I say this with laughter. I was still a "butterfly" when it occurred. Less than one month into their 1st marriage, dad stole mom's car and drove 450 miles to meet another girl. I kid you not!! And when he came by her place to pick up his things after the D.....he asked mom if they could still date. Few years later....he called her out of the blue and the rest was history. Keep in mind he was around 25 and mom 22 when they first wed. The sad part, I didn't get to hear the outrageous stories until he passed away. Could I have ribbed him over some of the things!


One question............if she returned this evening.......could you trust her?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

If she returned this evening? No, I would expect she'd be gone in a week back to POSOM. 

If she returned this evening with 4 plane tickets and said "let's move back to the USA; here's everything I plan on doing to make this up to you" then that would be a start. 

It wouldn't matter, though. I'd give it a try no matter what she said. 

Wow, this is starting to be really difficult again mentally. No one knows me like my wife; it was so easy to be around her. I think I just came back to Denial. It's been months since I've been in hard Denial.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I would like to know what she thinks of me. I must say, I really don't know. 

I suspect there are the residual feelings of having known someone so close and so long, as a love and a partner and the father of her children. 

I wonder if there's just not enough respect there. Her for me, that is. For whatever was disappointing her before the affair, and then maybe that I wasn't jealous enough or that I didn't catch on to the affair, and everything after D-Day. Me not wanting to let go and then me being cold and distant. I don't know. Holy sh1t, life sucks right now. What is so great about that POSOM?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

SStrong,

Do you feel like you're at 50,000 feet?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> SStrong,
> 
> Do you feel like you're at 50,000 feet?


If that means having a strong sense of vertigo and an anxiety attack, then yes. 

If it means feeling detached from the situation and seeing it from an aerial view, then hell no. I am attached, so very attached. Speaking of PTSD, this is throwing me back to D-day events.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> If that means having a strong sense of vertigo and an anxiety attack, then yes.
> 
> If it means feeling detached from the situation and seeing it from an aerial view, then hell no. I am attached, so very attached. Speaking of PTSD, this is throwing me back to D-day events.


Then get out of the weeds and get back to 50,000 feet.

"What if" mind movies are a form of psychological torture.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Agreed.

It's hard, Conrad. Just had this flood of memories. All the stuff we've done together, all the great moments. And now.. all the ways I could have been a better husband. But I'm great! She thought I was great. 

NONE of our friends are divorced. There's no reference point for me. Everywhere I go are sweet intact little families. I'm living a nightmare right now. 

Well, I'm forced to go out of the house at the moment so that's good.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Or as my mamaw sed "what if's borrium truble"


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

She left her first husband for you, then you for the next guy. She's deeply flawed. As hard as this is right now, you'll find someone better. Think about what she did to you.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

It's a pattern.....do you think so?

If so.....the accompanying actors are meaningless


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS If you like old B/W movies, watch The Egyptian.....relate it to you


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

D6 told me that sometimes OM will put D3 on his shoulders, I'm assuming when D3 is tired. 

Obviously, I'm not okay with this in the sense I don't like it, not that it's a violation. I guess my question to you all is should I just learn to accept it? Or should I approach my STBX about what's appropriate? 

On an unrelated note, one thing that has stuck with me is that she left at a time when I had no income and I was here in a foreign country. There's something entirely cold-hearted about that. I don't care if she was in "the fog".


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> D6 told me that sometimes OM will put D3 on his shoulders, I'm assuming when D3 is tired.
> 
> Obviously, I'm not okay with this in the sense I don't like it, not that it's a violation. I guess my question to you all is should I just learn to accept it? Or should I approach my STBX about what's appropriate?


Is it inappropriate enough? 

I know the whole situation of them living together already, with the Ds around, can be seen as incredibly inappropriate. But a piggy back ride? That stuff is naturally going to happen in most houses with a man and a 3yo.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS -

Yes, I wouldn't worry about something as innocouos as a piggyback. But wanting to choke the life out of POSOM for his role in destroying your family, who wouldn't feel that way. 

And your instincts are right - you're living in a foreign country, little or no support structure, no real income at the time, she chooses then to pull the rug out from under you. That WAS very cold-blooded.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

staystrong said:


> D6 told me that sometimes OM will put D3 on his shoulders, I'm assuming when D3 is tired.
> 
> Obviously, I'm not okay with this in the sense I don't like it, not that it's a violation. I guess my question to you all is should I just learn to accept it? Or should I approach my STBX about what's appropriate?
> 
> On an unrelated note, one thing that has stuck with me is that she left at a time when I had no income and I was here in a foreign country. There's something entirely cold-hearted about that. I don't care if she was in "the fog".


Totally get your feelings. Both in her attitude and about D3.

Sad but true fact is that it isn't a big deal in the grand scheme. he already lives there after all. I do not think it is a big deal at all for an adult to give a 3yr old a piggy back ride. I wouldn't count it as usurping the Dad position or anything like that.

Damn straight I would be watchful for that happening though and in the same situation, i would probably be having the same thoughts.

Thing is though, if you have a strong relationship with your D's he can never become Dad. So long as you behave like and the girls think of you as Dad, no matter what he does, they may like him but Dad will always be you.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Hi all,

I'm ending my thread today. 

Thanks very much for all your input and I wish you all the best in your R's, D's and whatever else may come your way.

Stay strong...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm ending my thread today.
> 
> ...


What's up?


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

SS - We'll miss you if you go. Your contributions to TAM have been tremendous and much appreciated. I'll keep you in my prayers. Take care, and please come back whenever you feel like it. You will always find support and caring here.

Warmly, A12


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

SS why man?


Reconsider?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS-The darkest nights are rough. You have them less and less but yeah, they're still there. But you see the light at the end. Let me leave you with a question......If one of your daughters were going through a D and was in the same state you are....what would you do? No need to answer....just food for thought


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Best of luck, SS. You'll be in my thoughts. You and I have gone through a very similar set of circumstances, and I appreciate all of your comments and insights. You helped me.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Sorry, I suppose an explanation is in order...

I realized a few things.

1. There's no plot to my story. There's really nowhere for me to go except towards divorce. To agree to it. It's inevitable. The terms are settled, so I just need to submit docs and pay the hefty fee.

2. A lot of the extended pain and desperation I was feeling was mollified by the medication. I'm feeling less a need to wallow, which is great. 

3. In many ways, my Ex has been cool. She's helped me out with practical matters since I've been back. And she testified well on my behalf to the police. Meanwhile, I've been holding on to anger and resentment and want to let that go. I prefer to have a good relationship with her as opposed to burning her in effigy all the time. If that's what our relationship will be, so be it. If I can continue to do it without getting hurt, that's good for the kids. 

4. I think my perception of cheaters has become a bit distorted by being on TAM. It's hard to keep a balanced perspective here some times. I don't mean you guys, I mean the general mob carrying torches and nooses. I guess that's turned me off a bit. Affairs are terrible and destructive, that's true, but being on TAM has not helped me understand my own wife's wayward mindset. 

5. I've identified my wife's affair as a #4 from Dr. Robert Huizenga's "Break the Affair". She had a "I Fell Out of Love (and just love being in love)" affair. I'm starting to accept more of my wife's personality and who she really is as compared to maybe what I would have wanted her to be. At the same time, I do love her for who she is. 

We spoke tonight - openly for the first time in months - and she told me she deeply loves me but that of course she is "in love" with OM and wants me to be happy and move on. She admits she is confused about life and love, and we had a dialog about what love means, what commitment means, what our cultural differences are, etc. I think it will be the first in a series of conversations in which I get to learn more about her, myself and what our couple was. Conversations without judgement, expectations, or tainted by too heavy emotions. I've been caught up so much in the 180, NC, etc. that I have forgotten we are people with different needs and a different take on the world. I think it is better to accept her for who she is at this time in her life and just remove myself from the victim-persecutor duality I've been in. I still don't think she realizes the full gravity of what's happened, but it does not benefit me to continually remind her of it. It only upsets the apple cart and leads to nothing. Much more insight from her has come forward from me just listening.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Do what feels right for you, I think you need somewhere like this to stay grounded? If you go you'll be missed.


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## All of a sudden (Jan 24, 2013)

You've come a long way since I checked in. Good for you. I know how hard its been and you seem to be getting better. I wish you find happiness again someday soon and that everything that can work out for you does. Hugs and goodbye, enjoy a new life.


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## Chopsy (Oct 10, 2012)

SS, sorry you'll be leaving. It might be useful to keep your acct open and give us an update every now and then. But obviously up to you. Stay strong, xox


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Much more insight from her has come forward from me just listening.


It's great that you are now to the point where you have a desire to and are capable of listening. Months ago you couldn't stand the sound of her voice. 

That is progress. Keep it up man... here or elsewhere. 

Best wishes.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS No matter what you do.....you will always have my support.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

SS

Before you go please tell me how
you kicked that posom a$$ again.

That was when you won me over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

I will miss you a lot. Your inputs to me have been invaluable. But two things before you go - you never told us which country in Europe you're in. I said before that I hoped you hadn't gone native and were wearing Capri pants and clogs. And I agree with GP, all this talk aside, your finest hour was whaling on the music teacher.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

He was a music teacher? lmfao I am picturing Shemp from the Stooges now.... egh


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Yes, a music teacher. Makes me want to weep.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

In C minor? i cant believe i missed that!


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

What I would give to experience a beat
down of he garden gnome. I'm salivating 
just thinking about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

One word....well two

strong alibi


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Ditto here. Beat down of brown teeth leprechaun. Who said violence doesn't solve anything?


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

BW I'm almost caught up on your thread..........

there is no way your story could be made up

everytime I think....ok this has reached its zenith

the journey takes another turn


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Hi all,

Thanks for your support. I will keep my account open and continue to follow your threads, albeit in more of a lurking mode. It's been great getting to know you all - I'm a big fan of many people on here and how they've handled their situations. I just don't think I will continue to post on my thread anymore. Who knows, I may have a change of heart.

Attacking POSOM felt really good, there's no doubt about it. Admittedly, it was a bit psycho in the manner it was done. Perhaps I had an abnormal amount of anger, pent up from months of anxiety. With the meds working now, I realize how much of a wreck I was. It was pure neurochemical torment. Anyhow, BW and others, I do hope you get your revenge and I'm still available to assist. 

Zillard, you're right about the active listening. It's helping me heal and become a better person, I think. I had done this in the beginning, upon news of the affair, but then as we were separating I became anxious, depressed, pushy and resentful. I did not have patience - hard to do when someone abandons you in a foreign country (it's France, Bullwinkle) - and she showed no sign of changing her mind. I think I became intent on making her suffer for her coldheartedness, and didn't want to accept her breadcrumbs or be Plan B. I got riled up about hanging on what piece of control I could. In hindsight, that was helpful for me in some ways but I believe it was the wrong strategy for maintaining my own mental health. There is wisdom just letting someone leave and see what may come of it. Hard to do when you feel that person in your cells, your blood. And I did.

My brother tells me it is highly uncommon for a woman to break up her family for another man. I don't know the stats. He advises me on never getting back with her in case she knocks on my door. However, he has never met her in person. She tells me she's not sure we would be a match if we met each other at this stage in life. I think that's bull.. I'm sure I would still charm the pants off of her. I think she's very confused and I will leave her to sort her own stuff out. I'm feeling allright about that. 

I've started looking at dating sites which is a big leap for me. Trying to have some company and see what's out there.. I think I'm ready for that!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Good to know you'll still be about.

Best wishes and all that jazz to you man. You sound so different than when you rocked up here. 

Stay strong. Such an apt name now.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

StayStrong, we miss you, bud, you out there?

Drop us a line. To leave us hanging now is bordering on cruel....

BW


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Hi BW,

Sorry to cut and run like that. I just have a lot on my mind recently, more so than normal I think. I'm trying to reconnect with my daughters and to put some of the pieces of my life back together which have completely fallen apart. I'm getting mixed results. I'm also starting to feel more the death of this separation from my wife. I'm at a painful stage and just need to process it alone, I guess. It's a wordless process, just pure feeling. 

I feel like at some point I just have to say "This is life, this is just the way it goes sometimes" even if in my heart I don't think this is what either of us wanted. I really don't think she was looking for this, to leave the marriage. She told me often that she didn't want this to happen, but could be just the guilt talking. She once told me the trouble started when we moved to this new town. There had been some frustrations before but I think they mounted when we spent 3-4 weeks de-wallpapering, painting, and furnishing an entire apartment together. It was really physically exhausting, even though I think we handled it well, most couples are bound to get into disagreements on a project like that. I remember us having an argument about what color something was. Such a stupid argument. Also, at one point my wife fell off a ladder and banged her head on a radiator. She was there alone, painting in the evening, and fortunately she was not so injured that she couldn't get a neighbor to take her to the hospital. I feel like things starting going downhill after this event. Maybe b/c she was scared, or she was mad at me for her having to do the work, and she felt upset that when I consoled her I jokingly called her 'accident-prone' (she is, a little bit) and thought it wasn't safe for her or anybody to be on the top step of a ladder while working alone. She thought I was making fun of her, but she had no idea how worried I was about her. I truly cherished her. 

I miss the 'home' life and I feel very empty inside. I counted that I have physically moved an average of every 1.5 years since I left home for university (20 years ago). I'm so tired of moving. I was looking forward to staying put in one place, and now I must be moving again. It's a hard place to find one's self in one's life. I look outside the window and ask myself, "Really? Am I going to be stuck in this town in this foreign country until my kids grow up?". The thought chills me. 

The reasons for why we fall in and out of love are complex, I get that. I suppose what's done is done, and I may find love again, but there's so much fallout to this event that it is taking a lot of work just to get back to basics.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

Thanks for your articulate, thoughtful reply. 

I understand better now why you felt the need to sort of go dark. Probably like most of us, you made mistakes, have plenty of regrets. Things you'd do differently. I'm not going to give you the TAM rah rah speech. I understand how devastated you have been. 

I also would not want to die in some foreign country, or years from now when your kids are older. Maybe finding some way out of that conundrum can be a focus. 

I know there's nothing I can say except the usual fluff. But you will survive this. Don't give up. 


BW


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I've been thinking about what it means to remain centered.
> 
> The meds are helping me look back and review my own actions.
> 
> ...


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

DoYou,

Thanks for your heartfelt note. 

Yes, we're very similar in what we wanted from our marriage. I tended to think I failed because I used the wrong technique or something, but I just think perhaps she was too far gone and she had to be let go to figure it out for herself. It's hard to compete with the OM and the fog. 

As is the case, women w/ kids are more able to leave than are men w/ kids. That's why we see those OW's always being kept "waiting, waiting, waiting" for their MM to 'break free' from their ball and chain so they can be with their 'true love'. I think this 'soulmate' idea only exists in the mind of people in affairs and people who have proven themselves in marriage over many years. The first one is often delusional in my opinion. See the stories on the comments section of this page for some super fogged out reading material. One woman goes as far to say God only brings you a True Love around once in a lifetime (and only to the special few). No matter the person is still married! Can Relationships That Start as Affairs Succeed? | About Affairs

One thing I have learned from this is that you can't let the passion die down. My wife and I had affection and friskiness to the end, but maybe the intense fire had died down a bit with work and taking care of the two young kids. And women desperately crave romance and passion, if the many fans of "Eat Pray Love" are a testament to anything. Effectively I became the boring husband, the dead weight. I failed to keep rocking her world, and I shoulder half that blame. Funny, because she'd always told me her last husband had put her on a pedestal, so I took that as a sign she didn't want extraordinary attention. I think I did fail in maybe making her feel desired the way she wanted, and I have to flog myself for that because she's very attractive, sexy, loving, etc. I just sort of dropped the ball in that area as I think too many husbands do. Women don't always show this on the surface, but it's very active underneath. I sometimes wonder if the way she feels for OM is the way she's never felt this way for anyone else before. But why torture myself? I know we had some passionate years together and I kick myself for not making them more passionate. Some people just put more energy into their relationships than others. They think more about meeting the needs of their partner, even as times goes on and on. I suppose I did not think enough about that, which is too bad because I did very much enjoy doing things that brought a smile to her face. I loved to love her, but my demonstration of that started to wane. I didn't too more on top of the usual daily signs. I would hate for her to think that I was not passionate about her or that I did not think often of her. I guess I just did not show it as much as I should. The next lady will benefit.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I should add that even if I am still partly in love with my wife, I don't think a decent person would abandon his or her spouse in the manner that my wife left me. In a foreign country without steady income, after only having been there 1.5 years. So when she told me this weekend "I don't deserve you" then I think she really means it (even if I hate that line). The thing is, no one really deserves that kind of treatment. She's forcing me to stay here if I want to be with my kids, and that's just plain wrong. If the OM wants to be with someone who could do that, then maybe he should think twice as well. But he probably sees it as a proof of their undying love.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

The fact is that this other man is getting no prize, your wife is a broken woman, my stbxh thinks she has this wonderful man and the surprise is going to be on her.....I would bet my last shirt that the OM is also no prize. You are right, it is wrong that you need to stay in foreign country but your children need you and for now you have to build your life there as best you can. You need to thrive and show that stbxw of yours who the better man is.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

She stepped out on her ex to be with you.

She stepped out on you to be with posOM

He shouldn't be basking in the glory of his "victory"

His time will come.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Stop blaming yourself for not doing enough. How much effort did she put into it? She's a coward who left you and her CHILDREN. Broke up a family and it was all fixable if she wasn't so selfish.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> Stop blaming yourself for not doing enough. How much effort did she put into it? She's a coward who left you and her CHILDREN. Broke up a family and it was all fixable if she wasn't so selfish.


No truer words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

You guys are great support. 

My pea brain does seem to be able to process this. There are too many gray areas. 

On the one hand, cheating is wrong because it hurts people and hurts the cheaters' own integrity. 

On the other hand, people who fall in love with their affair partner don't feel that it is ultimately wrong because it is in the name of love. They know they are causing other people pain but they feel they cannot and will not live without each other. They often try to minimize the pain to their spouses and feel guilt and shame. But what's done is done. 

Of course, if they had never hooked up in the first place, it never would have happened. But many of them feel they were destined to meet. Many people who cheat never thought they would!

So is it just that they crossed a line, one that many others wouldn't cross, but once they cross it they realize the world is not so black and white?

I don't know. 

All I know is that slowly my wife and I must have grown apart. Less pillow talk, less sex, less intimacy, more going to bed tired or on the computer. Relationship killers. I miss doing very simple things with her. Our marriage became too much of a working relationship and not enough of a lovers' relationship. And my wife is a great lover (not just physically). I don't know, maybe I just went 'boring' on her and she on me. Sometimes you think you run out of stuff to talk about but really there are so many inner worlds still yet to explore. Or just to have a laugh. I miss laying in bed with her though I know the quality of that experience started to deteriorate. But we had great love, that's what kills me. And it make me think I just don't understand love. But whatever we had, the absence of it is very disturbing. You could drive a big rig through this hole in my chest.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

staystrong said:


> You guys are great support.
> 
> My pea brain does seem to be able to process this. There are too many gray areas.
> 
> ...


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

I hear you. 

The kinds of things I missed the most were the little things. I used to make coffee early, pre-dawn. And we would lie in bed together drinking coffee and talking about our upcoming days and our hopes and aspirations. Holding hands. And I loved how warm she was from the covers and how her hair was all tussled.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> SS
> 
> I hear you.
> 
> The kinds of things I missed the most were the little things. I used to make coffee early, pre-dawn. And we would lie in bed together drinking coffee and talking about our upcoming days and our hopes and aspirations. Holding hands. And I loved how warm she was from the covers and how her hair was all tussled.


What really happened those early pre-dawn mornings...."Fix me some coffee F Face!"


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Haha, GP got you BW.

But it's true. Those moments speak to us and say "this is real love" and wherever you go in the world and no matter what happens to you, you can always come back here. To the bed, holding hands. To that little slice of heaven. We talk a lot about sex on this board, but I think moments like this are just as meaningful and we deeply miss them when they're gone. 

GP,
"Your wife does not love herself at all."

I think I even said this to my wife, but I'm not sure what it means any more. What do you think it means? Honestly, I think some waywards act out of self-preservation, because they fear not being loved enough. The AP offers them so much love they can't turn it down. 

"SS, no way on God's green earth could you have prevented your lover's relationship from turning into working relationship. That's what happens in relationships. You cannot maintain the courting type love."

Some of it has to be a working relationship, sure. But we can't drop the ball on courting behaviours. Or else we wind up here! I also neglected to get a sitter, GP.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

You're killing yourself.

She's a runner.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Haha, GP got you BW.
> 
> But it's true. Those moments speak to us and say "this is real love" and wherever you go in the world and no matter what happens to you, you can always come back here. To the bed, holding hands. To that little slice of heaven. We talk a lot about sex on this board, but I think moments like this are just as meaningful and we deeply miss them when they're gone.
> 
> ...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hence the self-medication - to numb herself.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I want all you jamokes to come to Washington this weekend and we'll all cram into the bed and take turns holding hands while I serve coffee.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

GP,

You mentioned that you can't keep up the courting stage.

But what about continued sexual exploration?

What makes me feel totally emasculated right now is the thought that my wife has lept up a level sexually in terms of trying new things, or older things with more vigor. It makes me feel like I didn't lead enough, or pull out her freaky side well enough throughout our marriage. I became staid or boring or whatever, and not assertive or suggestive enough. 

And now it's like I want to try everything with her. To do it, but also just to prove it. 

It's pathetic, but my ego needs that. I'm so freaking jealous right now.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> She stepped out on her ex to be with you.
> 
> She stepped out on you to be with posOM
> 
> ...


SS, 

this is true yanno...


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

staystrong said:


> GP,
> 
> You mentioned that you can't keep up the courting stage.
> 
> ...



Your making it sound as if your entire (or a greater part if I must say) marriage was based on sex...as if you offered these things things would have been a happier place and all would have been ok? Sadly no. I mean I don't think so...I think she would have chosen the path she took no matter what... just my take...


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I wouldn't pay much attention to my wandering thoughts. I'm simply a dude that is still having issues moving on and will pick at all parts of this like a vulture on a desert highway. 

I do believe that sex and intimacy are typically the barometers for the status of the relationship.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> GP,
> 
> You mentioned that you can't keep up the courting stage.
> 
> ...


So go out and get you some! You'll quickly realize you are no less of a man because she stepped out.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> I want all you jamokes to come to Washington this weekend and we'll all cram into the bed and take turns holding hands while I serve coffee.


can I have tea, Im a little demanding that way sorry...


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

SS:. I’ve been married 35 years and trust me it’s not a matter of growing apart. Cheaters cheat because they want to period! I think my stbxh became closer in the last 5 years than ever. That’s what made this last A so hard for me. With his heart problem and thinking he was going to die we had to develop a close friendship first and then the romance again. He had to court me all over again but we became best friends first. I believe our sex life was the best it had ever been, pure magic because of our connection. The n to find out it was all a lie.....and he had a lover also. Again? What a betrayal! No it doesn’t matter if it’s in the beginning of the relationship, the middle or a long relationship a cheater will always find a reason to cheat. If they are unhappy why wouldn’t a spouse just say I’m unhappy and if something doesn’t change I think I’m going to leave?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Seriously brother,

Read Zillard's thread about how he's applying what we talk about here in new relationships.

Do it for you.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Zillard's much further along mentally than I am. 

Hey, did I call his change to a color avatar or what? 

I think I mentioned I joined a dating site. A couple of nibbles but I kind of fell back to just keeping my head above water, so I'm not quite ready to get really active with it. Obviously I have some self-esteem issues I'm trying to work through as well. Any exchange with my wife makes me feel inept, deficient or like I'm a total a-hole. She has that power over me, because the mystery of why cheated really still belongs to her. So I assume the worst, because I can't fathom how she would cheat and run if I was doing things right. Am I the only one who has this thought process?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I think her criticisms of me really hit home. Here was the person I trusted the most and she's telling me I'm boring, controlling, disappointing etc. I never really had self-esteem issues before - I believed in myself - and now I feel my whole self is invalidated. That's why it is hard to date.

I do think I could have been more cool about things (e.g. more treats for the kids, less rigid about some stuff). Since my world has exploded, I am much more casual about stuff, even if I already was fairly casual beforehand. The thing that tripped me up is that I would get sucked into 'right-fighting' during arguments, if I entered the trying to prove the merits of my case. I thought that's how you were supposed to fight. Silly me. I did learn to back off over time. 

I just wanted the chance to prove myself, I guess. To say "hey, I can see the things that made you uncomfortable and I want to change that". She would not allow me that chance. I know this is the case of many BH's ... they feel like an a-hole because they loved their wives and didn't mean to disrespect them. I certainly feel that way now. I don't know why wives get so bored and annoyed with their husbands to the point they will cheat. That's why I go back to the point of the sexual life. Good, frequent sex usually means fewer fights. Sexual frustration creates annoyances. 

The problem for me is when I look into my kids' faces, I project my own disappointment. I sincerely do feel like I let them down and I'm having a lot of difficult processing this.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Zillard's much further along mentally than I am.


How? It wasn't by avoiding encounters with women. I only took steps I was comfortable with, but made a point to do weekly. 

initiate conversations with strangers > initiate conversations with females > find new friends > socialize > step it up. 

confidence grew with each step. Did it grow because I was becoming emotionally detached and defining boundaries with X? Or was I becoming more detached and more confident in enforcing my boundaries because my confidence grew elsewhere? 

Chicken vs egg



staystrong said:


> Hey, did I call his change to a color avatar or what?


Yes. yes you did! :smthumbup:


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I think her criticisms of me really hit home. Here was the person I trusted the most and she's telling me I'm boring, controlling, disappointing etc. I never really had self-esteem issues before - I believed in myself - and now I feel my whole self is invalidated. That's why it is hard to date.
> 
> I do think I could have been more cool about things (e.g. more treats for the kids, less rigid about some stuff). Since my world has exploded, I am much more casual about stuff, even if I already was fairly casual beforehand. The thing that tripped me up is that I would get sucked into 'right-fighting' during arguments, if I entered the trying to prove the merits of my case. I thought that's how you were supposed to fight. Silly me. I did learn to back off over time.
> 
> ...


SS - You have GOT to stop blaming yourself for her disloyalty and her bailing on you! If she was unhappy with anything in the marriage, it was HER responsibility to raise those issues with you and do her part to work them out. She chose to just bail out instead. It sucks, but that is HER failing, not yours. You can only do your 50% of the relationship. Capeesh?

Warm Regards,- A12


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Awakening2012 said:


> SS - You have GOT to stop blaming yourself for her disloyalty and her bailing on you! If she was unhappy with anything in the marriage, it was HER responsibility to raise those issues with you and do her part to work them out. She chose to just bail out instead. It sucks, but that is HER failing, not yours. You can only do your 50% of the relationship. Capeesh?
> 
> Warm Regards,- A12


What she said 1000x1000!!!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> The problem for me is when I look into my kids' faces, I project my own disappointment. I sincerely do feel like I let them down and I'm having a lot of difficult processing this.


We've all got kids.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Zillard's much further along mentally than I am.


Cut the bullshix excuses.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

I read the faloowing comment on another Tread and thought it was fitting to this topic of a cheeter and you just to reconize it is what it is.

They risked a good relationship (may not have been the best but a good one) for one that is meaningless. 

As far as being thrown away, the cheater almost also throws the affair partner away once outed (may take a while-but when they dont need them bam). 

IMO, cheaters are the type that throw people away when they no longer meet their every need. 

A high percentage of cheaters have personality disorders. Most of these are not curable.

One book I read likened an affair to a car crash. The author said, in the aftermath everyone crawls out bloody, or dying or scarred for life.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS Mrs SS "All you want from me is sex"

okay....scale back.... "you don't give me enough"

get the picture? how could you win a horse race

with a leg missing?

too much focus on her

this will end only when you choose for it to

this may bust your ballz but

your W gets a thrill seeing you cower and cave

take your balls back


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

_My friend wrote this to me today. I thought it was interesting. I don't know if I agree with all of it because I do think my wife cab be more caring and kind than he characterises. I do think she has suffered and feels a lot of guilt about her choice. However, I do agree that she did not view the marriage with the same seriousness that I did. Getting annoyed, stressed and bored are not sufficient reasons to cheat and part ways in a marriage with children._

You need a therapist to help you with this. Stop making excuses.

You are stuck in a vicious circle and you are chasing your tail. Men get therapists in this situation and they get better. This is a time when strength = asking for help. I think joining a group, in-person, with an experienced therapist leading the discussion would be great. A regular on-on-one, in-person therapist relationship would also be great.

She treated it like a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship. I don't think she's capable of being in a real marriage. You thought you had a wife, but you had a live-in girlfriend.

What is the point of having vows if one person is going to check out when they feel less attracted to the other person? That's a boyfriend-girlfriend mentality.

I don't think she is coming back. And I don't think you should want her back. She is a selfish French female with committment issues and a narcissistic streak. And she has proven that she doesn't care if you live or die. _[Don't agree with that last sentence.]_

I think you see her as having qualities that you think you lack, and that's part of the attraction. She's got a sexy, self-loving, feminine confidence that is appealing and charismatic to you. The problem is, she has that even when she's hurting other people, including you and her own children. She's a liar. She lacks character. She walks on people. And you're willing to sacrifice your pride and everything else just to have that smile of hers. You need to realize that smile is her smiling at herself.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

I agree with your friend....


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

You know, I was reflecting on sex and intimacy today. 

I came across a thread about eye contact during sex. I realize that my wife and I did not have a lot of eye contact during sex (during foreplay yes), and that we must have been shying away from real intimacy with one another. I know some people tend to close their eyes because the emotion is overwhelming or because they want to focus on the pleasure, but it did occur to me that closed eyes is a lack of sharing. I would keep my eyes open most of the time, but my wife did not. I can't recall how much this was the case pre-affair, it's been so long ago. I'm starting to wonder how much my wife really loved me, and for how long if ever she felt that I was the One for her. She wanted to have children with me so that signifies something, but I wonder if in her heart of hearts she really gave herself to me 100%. If she left herself completely vulnerable, that is. Ladies, any thoughts on that?


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

HI SS - I would say you can't read too much into the eyes open or closed thing during sex -- everyone is different. This is over-thinking, and won't help you gain any useful insight. We can't mind read to know what goes through a partner's brain during love-making (or at any time). I can relate to your struggle to want to understand and make sense of why she made the decisions she did, but some things don't have a rational explanation. The fact that you did have kids together signifies a beautiful bond that you once shared. Don't discount that, but also know that her reasons for bailing on you may have very little to do with you, and say much more about her issues and short-comings with committment and intimacy than yours. 

I think you still put way too much blame on yourself for the split. All marriages start out with the best of intentions, but quite obviously from the TAM world, we see that not every marriage partner has what it takes to go the distance. It is natural to ask ourselves, could we have done something differently that may have resulted in a difffernet outcome? Perhaps, but it helps me to realize that the majority of people are doing the best they can at the time with the information, capabilities and baggage they possess. 

What matters is that YOU gave it your all, YOU did your best, and you were true to yourself. What is the latest status of your situation as of now, and do you have clarity on where things are headed, legally? I have struggled mightily to move on and let go, and I still do (at just over a year separated now). I think once we get the D over with, I will be better able to move on emotionally, look to the future and stop obsessing about my H and the past. 

All Best Wishes, - A12


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

SS,
You may be right, the eye contact might have been a telling factor, another telling factor might have been how she made the bed did you read about that, or how much you talked when you sat across from each other over a meal. How about you’re kissing and also those fun intimate moments such as having sex in other places besides the bedroom...How clean did you keep your feet?... hmmmm... Are you getting my point yet? I’m not making fun or making light of your search for answers, really I’m not. 
You’re not doing what your friend suggested... I understand, I know it’s hard.. Believe me I do!!! You want answers, you want guarantees that it will never happen to you again. But you HAVE to stop doing this to yourself. Start today to change this pattern of beating yourself up and analyzing it to death, even just a little.. Please try.... It will help you so much.....

xxoo
DYRC2


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_but also know that her reasons for bailing on you may have very little to do with you, and say much more about her issues and short-comings with committment and intimacy than yours. 
It is natural to ask ourselves, could we have done something differently that may have resulted in a difffernet outcome? Perhaps, but it helps me to realize that the majority of people are doing the best they can at the time with the information, capabilities and baggage they possess. _

These are excellent points. My ex has problems with intimacy and commitment, along with a desire for novelty. And it's very true that most of us BS were doing our imperfect best before we were blindsided and in most cases weren't given a heads up that the WS was unhappy. SS, maybe Awakenings' insights above can help you look at this from a different angle?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Awakening2012 said:


> HI SS - I would say you can't read too much into the eyes open or closed thing during sex -- everyone is different. This is over-thinking, and won't help you gain any useful insight. We can't mind read to know what goes through a partner's brain during love-making (or at any time). I can relate to your struggle to want to understand and make sense of why she made the decisions she did, but some things don't have a rational explanation. The fact that you did have kids together signifies a beautiful bond that you once shared. Don't discount that, but also know that her reasons for bailing on you may have very little to do with you, and say much more about her issues and short-comings with committment and intimacy than yours.
> 
> I think you still put way too much blame on yourself for the split. All marriages start out with the best of intentions, but quite obviously from the TAM world, we see that not every marriage partner has what it takes to go the distance. It is natural to ask ourselves, could we have done something differently that may have resulted in a difffernet outcome? Perhaps, but it helps me to realize that the majority of people are doing the best they can at the time with the information, capabilities and baggage they possess.
> 
> ...


It's interesting you say that. (in bold)

That's what I am starting to wonder, if I am honest with myself. 

What does it mean to give it your all? From a basic spirit level, yes I did. I didn't doubt the marriage, or step outside of it, or sabotage it. Practically speaking, I think I did the best given what I knew. I was ignorant in some areas, communication being one of them. I think most people are not trained in this area. 

However, I do see some of my faults more clearly now: a tendency to be controlling, some passive-aggressive traits. Previously I would've denied some of those things because I was more concerned about being 'right' in certain situations. I could be unkind, but it was pretty rare. We had a few recurring fights, and I think we were both frustrated about it. 

Part of me is simply humiliated. That I didn't satisfy my wife in bed or provide well enough as a husband. I've gotten some nibbles for dates but I feel like women are going to judge me or something. Like I've said before, I've never been dumped or heartbroken (well, one unrequited love a long time ago) so I don't know how feel about it exactly!


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

staystrong said:


> It's interesting you say that. (in bold)
> 
> That's what I am starting to wonder, if I am honest with myself.
> 
> ...


SS

You have been feeling this for way too long and its BS. She would have left you even if you had a 12" mule d!ck and banged her unconscious. Her problem is with her. OM will find out soon enough. 

You need to get out and find a woman who is into you. You need a self-esteem boost. If you sucked in bed, WW wouldn't have slept with you a second time much less married you. 

You will not get over this or her infidelity if you do not start loving yourself.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Haha .. loving that mule d!ck line, brother GutPunch

I do need a self-esteem boost, there's no doubt about that. I'll get back out there, and I am sure I will enjoy it. 

I think I've been reading a lot about relationships and trying to retroactively apply it to my own. For example, I don't think we talked about sex that much in the past few years together. What I mean is we weren't delving into each other's desires, what feels good, what they may want to do different. I think we may have fallen into the trap of thinking we already knew enough and maybe not wanting to ask too many questions. It's funny how we can get a little shy about asking direct questions even if we weren't shy in the act. 

Young kids suck a lot of out the marriage. Love em to death but they do.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I think another thing that sparked this recent spate of bad feelings is seeing OM play with my kids. I wanted to get out the double-bladed axe for that. 

I wonder what STBXW is going to say once I have a GF who is also taking care of our kids. I guess it will be different - my GF won't be the OW - and she may even be relieved that I have the help.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_WW wouldn't have slept with you a second time much less married you. _

There you go, SS. Wish I thought of this. So simple and obvious.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Haha .. loving that mule d!ck line, brother GutPunch
> 
> I do need a self-esteem boost, there's no doubt about that. I'll get back out there, and I am sure I will enjoy it.
> 
> ...


Yes they do take a lot of work but healthy people can cope. 

You keep searching in these books for what may have went wrong. What you could have done to prevent this. I say this. 
Nothing. Your wife is the one that needs the books. She looks for validation from OM and not from herself. Recipe for a serial cheater.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I think another thing that sparked this recent spate of bad feelings is seeing OM play with my kids. I wanted to get out the double-bladed axe for that.
> 
> *That turns my stomach too SS. Ugggh. I hope I never have to deal with that. *
> 
> ...


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> _WW wouldn't have slept with you a second time much less married you. _
> 
> There you go, SS. Wish I thought of this. So simple and obvious.


That's one thing I know about women. If they think you suck in bed, you are history.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Well said, GP.

Let's not forget the beta-ization that occurs, though. You can go from Fabio to Flubbio in their minds without you knowing it happened.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

SS, I just want to say TYVM for all your honesty thru-out this dramatic event in your life. It has given me all kinds of perspective into my own failing marriage. Stuff you just cant read in a book.

The biggest thing I've learned from the reading is that at certain point, theres just nothing more you can do. Whats done is done, and its time to move on whether you like the outcome or not, and at a certain point you have to do it for your own sanity. The hardest part is that you realize that it really comes down to issues that really had nothing to do with you, but all on insecurities she has/had. 

Sure they seem so obvious after the fact, even fixable. If she didn't want to face them, to figure them out, she's transferring the problems to the next guy in line, which will eventually fail as well cause the problems aren't solved, just passed on. My wife has many of the same issues, but her way of dealing with them is different from how I would deal with them, and I cant change that about her. No matter how hard I wanna try, in fact, it makes the situation worse.

Your shared journey has opened my eyes to the harsh reality, that you cant do it by yourself. I applaud you for the progess you've made, and I understand its a very slow, painful process. But its a process you DO have to journey down.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

See that one I don’t agree with SS: I never minded some extra weight on my husband, sure I loved the toned muscle but it was all a part of him and I loved to caress the fuller stomach as much as a flat one...I don’t hear any of my friends complaining about their spouses extra weight. 
And like GP said, the woman I know that did talk about an unsatisfactory sex life would do something about it or leave. And yes we do talk about our sex lives.
Woman these days are not afraid to tell their H what they want and I think have gotten very vocal about it. Most of us do it subtly though we don’t say hey you stink... we say why don’t you do this or try this or look what I bought. She would have let you know....


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Thumper said:


> SS, I just want to say TYVM for all your honesty thru-out this dramatic event in your life. It has given me all kinds of perspective into my own failing marriage. Stuff you just cant read in a book.
> 
> The biggest thing I've learned from the reading is that at certain point, theres just nothing more you can do. Whats done is done, and its time to move on whether you like the outcome or not, and at a certain point you have to do it for your own sanity. The hardest part is that you realize that it really comes down to issues that really had nothing to do with you, but all on insecurities she has/had.
> 
> ...


Well Put....:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS You have stayed around because you think you have a fighter's chance

that means you are a fighter, a survivor, a warrior

Life is by no means complicated, we just make it seems as such

My dad always told me I never could score a TD, sitting on the pine

Nothing worthwhile in life comes easy

The past is what it is, in the past

you were victim #2, POSOM will be #3, mark it on the walls

I am like homemade chili, if you do not like my chili

then move on and run through the drive thru at White Castle

I have bad points, more than I probably should have

But I have way more positives, you simply weigh your abilities

I still despise the doctor that messed me up in 1988

but I have used it to motivate, not to sit and cry

Fantasies are exactly that, fantasy

but you have dreams inside you...reach for them

if not for my dreams, why in the he!! would I get outta bed in AM

You are not giving yourself due credit, you provided for three others

says tons of your character, also means you can do it again

Raise up, stand up, walk to the mirror and say

"SS will control his destiny and no one else

those who do not like it can go ye thy forth and multiply"

You WILL make it, I have $500 says you will

and I hate losing bets and you hate not pulling your weight

It's showtime, we're all ready to watch you make it happen


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Chuck's right.

Quit wallowing.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Lots to chew on today. Thank you both ladies and gentlemen.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Well, an update from me.

Turning in the check to the divorce lawyer on Friday. Divorce should take a couple of months to complete.

I've been trying for a couple of months with the antidepressants and then I stopped (more like I couldn't find the pills I had bought). 

My physical and mental health have both severely declined. My place is a mess. I can't keep up with the single parenting. 

I'm not well and I love my girls too much to expose them to my depression. I can't believe I am this point in my life. I can't believe I failed this much as a husband and a father. To be honest, I don't understand. I thought the love my wife and I had was not as conditional as it appears it was. 

I've decided it's best if I return to the States and let my wife take care of our daughters. It is so F'ed up. She's the one who cheated and yet she wins. She has her OM and now our children. But I can't stay here. I have no family here and I am wasting away mentally. I constantly have suicidal thoughts and I don't know what's going to be come of my life. I've lost my human identity and I just don't feel a real reason to go on anymore. Every day is an uphill struggle just to do the basics. I'm honestly just a shell of a person at this point. The problem is I don't even have the energy to pull it off. I should be in a psych ward or something. I don't even recognize myself at this point. 

I used to count myself lucky. Beautiful wife and a loving family life. We had such potential - I guess I was not tuned into the reality of how I was letting her down, letting myself down. It's all gone now and I have the faintest idea about how to rebuild myself. This is rock bottom and it's terrible. Adultery and abandonment are evil things. They only lead to pain and suffering.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

I dont know what to say SS. really, I feel the same pain at the thought of being away from my kids. yet i am considering it though to a lesser degree.

Think long and hard about this my friend. I honestly dont know if you will feel any better off by doing this. Being on a different continent, how often will you see them? How will you feel at that?

I am not trying to lay on a guilt trip by any means. But if you return to the US, will you be any better off? If you genuinely cannot cope and have to let WW be the primary custody, I get that. That is putting the kids wellbeing above your own wishes. but could you not remain nearby? I know the language barrier has been kicking you but is it an option? Or at least nearer than the US? From what I recall of your location, the UK would be close enough prehaps and at least be english speaking if you really dont feel able to stay in that country. I dont know if that would be an option for you work permit wise etc?

Your love of your kids has always come across, even back at the start when things were very dark for you. I worry you will be back to that place if you are thousands of miles from them.

Can you not get back on your meds? Dont just surrender.

My thoughts are with you.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

No matter how many mountains you moved

she still would have cheated, it's a pattern for her

you lived without her before, you will again

you can not live without your children

I can not blame you one bit for giving up on her and R

but do your kids deserve to be given up on?

You will have to live with your decision

my thoughts are with you


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

There has got to be a way for you
to get custody during the summer 
months when school is out.

They can stay with you in the States?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

NorthernMonkey - You relate well. I have had a lot of those same thoughts. Part of it comes down to practicality. I don't have the ability at the moment to live/work in the UK. I had only been a year away from getting citizenship here in Europe and that would've gotten me access, but now that is not the case. I would have to get it through a job, and that is much more difficult. There are a lot of practical considerations to being in a marriage and an international couple, and now we seem those rise to the surface. 

I have so much love for my kids and I was a very involved dad. I am obviously very worried about what this will mean for our long-term relationship, since I won't be there on a day to day basis to help them develop and grow. It will likely mean that we won't be close, and this hurts me deeply. I feel for them, too, and hope they won't feel abandoned. I'm very sad about all of this, I don't even know how to process it at times. I suppose I can always come back here, but... what if I meet someone in the USA and want to start a life with her? That will start to take precedence and.

I feel I'm in the position of the wayward husband. Usually he is the one to suffer from leaving behind his spouse. I was the betrayed spouse and here I am needing to leave my kids simply so I can retain some sanity and be in a place where people speak my language. Getting acculurated to a new language/nation takes years. I don't think my wife really realizes that. 

Chuck, I was walking around yesterday with my kids and a few things hit home about her marital complaints which came to the surface. I do feel shame now for not being the breadwinner and maybe pushing for more time for my start up. I gave her unrealistic expectations at the beginning. I also feel stupid for not seeing myself outside myself, and meeting the attractiveness standard of the area we live in and which my wife meets. So I kind of get where she is coming from. I probably took her support for granted, but I was in love and thought we were a team. Regarding the kids, I am simply not suitable right now to be a single parent, even part time. I need a woman in my life to help, because I'm kind of out here on my own. My wife has her family here to help take care of the kids as well. Perhaps I can come back once I'm really refreshed, though as NorthernMonkey pointed out there's no guarantee I'll be happy in the US missing my kids. I don't expect to be 'happy' anywhere at this point but I do need to be functional. 

Gut, 
Right now we are splitting summers 50/50. I think I am going to push for longer summers because I won't be able to see them during the other normally allotted vacation times mid-year.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Have you gone back on your antidepresent? Do not make any life changeing decissions until you are at a place mentally to support them. There was a time during my stbxh last affair that I packed up some bags and moved 3 states away to stay with my sister. I did that because I knew I was heading for a breakdown. I wa no good to my sons let alone myself. However I had wise counsel and they said not to plan a permanent move. so I went for 3 months. during that time I called the susiced pervention hot line twice. I started to think more calmley though with the love and support of my sister and her husband, I got a part time job also which helped me and I was away from my Husbands manipulation which helped me a lot.
I can understand your "need" to leave. however I wonder if your depression will get anybetter with the great gulf between you and your children...? you want to heal not get worse.. so take the steps you can take right there then see if a move is for the best.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

SS, if you cant afford the meds, there is a natural and cheaper thing you can do for now, go get some vitamin B5, its not a cure all, but will help take the edge off as it replenishes natural chemicals your brain in burning thru right now. You have to stay positive more than ever right now, don't be so hard on yourself, playing the blame game. The issues are a 2 way street. Go to the library, get out of the house, that's free, read some books on self confidence, dealing with anxiety, self help books, not books on divorce or separation that are gonna continue to bring you down cause your self confidence is shot.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

Good to hear you, bud, we missed you. 

I understand how you feel. If you have thought long and hard about it and have concluded returning back to the States is the lesser of two evils given your physical and mental state, then just do it. You may be back here a week and decide it was a terrible mistake, you bum plane fare off a relative and go back. 

My advice is listen to your gut. Best of luck, amigo. 

BW


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I'm feeling better today. I feel like life can get better and I will be happy again. At least happy with myself and not so stuck in the past. There has been some 'lifting' inside me which is a positive. 

I'm looking to going back to the States for a month w/ my girls. It's going to cost a lot ($4500!!) and I thought my ex and I had originally agreed to split the cost of the kids' fare, but she said that's only if I live in the US.

We got in a broohaha on Friday because D6 expressed her interest to me in moving back to the States with me. At first I didn't entertain the idea since she is only 6, but then I thought about it and thought maybe it would be a good overall solution. I read up on it and there seem to be mixed feelings about it. I asked my wife to have a conversation about it, she flipped out (I was expecting that) and she said flatly No Way. I know splitting siblings is unconventional but I have read where it does work for some people. D6 is very attached to me and would like to live where I live in the States. However, it's unclear how D3 would be affected so the subject is being dropped. 

Anyhow, that convo/fight lead to the ex wanting to go only through the lawyers now and not continue our 'cooperative' divorce. We were doing that to save money, but in hindsight we probably never should have tried it. Now we'll probably wind up with the same agreement at at least twice the cost. So i'm kicking myself for that and asking her to think twice. That is money which could go to the kids. 

She remarked that her maternal instincts kicked in (I get that) and that she will be a b!tch if she has to. Of course, let's not forget that I have paternal instincts and was none too pleased when she moved OM in with our kids. But somehow that was okay. 

PS - Hi BW


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ok for her - not for you.

Nothing changes but the date.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

SS - 

Glad you are in better spirits today, and sorry about the tussle with the ex over the kids. I hope it will sort out in your favor or at least fairly. Thank you for this:


```
I feel like life can get better and I will be happy again. At least happy with myself and not so stuck in the past. There has been some 'lifting' inside me which is a positive.
```
I needed to hear it, as I'm trying to maintain that attitude as well.

Best of Luck, A12


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Ha! Good one, Conrad.

A12, hang in there. There will be better days. I just surprised myself by saying that.

Thanks to all who have been so supportive. I went back to the beginning of this thread and yeesh - those were some dark days. I revisited those dark days last month but there is no way in hell I'm going back to them. Just not possible.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

I hope you manage to work something out wherein you get to come back to the States with your girls. And you do sound better than you did a few days ago. 

Come to DC, we will have a greasy cheeseburger and whine about how women have sucked out our souls. 

We love you, brother.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> SS
> 
> I hope you manage to work something out wherein you get to come back to the States with your girls. And you do sound better than you did a few days ago.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Women and men....as the case may be


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

This past week has been very interesting. Mentally speaking. 

I think I finally have reached a state of mind where I am fine enough to start "moving on". I never thought I would be here. I will be okay no matter what happens. I feel ... myself again. 

I am less agitated, anxious and overwhelmed. Finally. Much of the tension has passed. There are still heavy moments, of course, and I think about the past, but there's been a breakthrough. I wonder if my decision to move back to the USA has something to do with it. 

I can look at my life from a new perspective. I can seal the D without anguish in my heart. I've accepted that my wife is with someone else and that I will start my life over with someone else. 

I have a sh!tload of new perspective, and I can view the past with more objectivity. I have shared some thoughts with my wife via a few emails prompted by a phone call between us. It was a recognition of what we were, the things I recognise about our marriage, her, myself. The good, the bad, All of it without judgement. And I see the negative things about myself, and I see the crazed man I was after she left me for him. I was completely overwhelmed by the shock, but that's no excuse. If people could have been inside my head, they would've taken me straight to the doctor for meds. 

I think it is starting to hit her more and more. The love chemicals are dying down for her, like clockwork. We are 15 months out from the start of her A. While she reports she is still in love with him, and loves him, she confesses that her life is troubled. She does not know if she will be happier with him than she was with me. She doesn't know if it has all been worth it. Will they be together for the rest of their lives? I think they both have doubts about all that has occurred. She doesn't want to hurt him. In the past I would have said "Not hurt him? But it was okay to hurt me?" but I'm no longer sitting in that victim's chair. She thinks she is a bad person who will never be satisfied in life. She thinks she is F'ed up. I don't try to console her or make her feel worse. I have no need for either. I simply listen and I told her that I honestly want her to be in happy in life. I don't think of R so much like I used to but there's a place for it in my heart. 

She regrets not agreeing to a six-month commitment to work on our marriage after D-Day. I don't try to describe to her the fog she was in. She understands it intuitively now. She finally apologised to me for moving OM in to our home with our children. Interestingly, she apologised because it hurt me. Yes, it hurt me, but she doesn't seem to understand that so much of that hurt for me was my concern for the kids' understanding of things. 

Meanwhile, I'm looking forward. To finding my own purpose again, and to wondering how I will have a meaningful relationship with my children while I am so far away from them. But I have to go back to the USA, at least for a while. There are things I need to do.


----------



## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi SS -

Great to hear you are feeling in a better space, and were even able to have some civil proccessing with WS and even get apology from her FWIW. I'm glad you are feeling clearer about your convictions and decisions on what's best for you, strating the adventure of a new chapter. Where will you be relocating in the US? Apologies if you've said this, and I missed it. To happier days ahead, and the best yet to come!

Cheers, A12


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> While she reports she is still in love with him, and loves him, she confesses that her life is troubled. She does not know if she will be happier with him than she was with me. She doesn't know if it has all been worth it. Will they be together for the rest of their lives? I think they both have doubts about all that has occurred. She doesn't want to hurt him.


But, mark this well.... she will.

She is a pos of highest order.

Do not take her back until the words out of her mouth sound like some you would hear from the people here.

That will mean she's finally confronted herself.

But, don't hold your breath.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

SS

You rock! You have come a long way baby....


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

Great to hear SS. I totally agree a move can do wonders.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Thanks guys and gals. I'm headed to Florida. 

I obviously got the short end of the stick, but to be honest I was not sure what to fight for in the divorce. Split custody is the norm, and I don't think I would have been able to handle more than that given my circumstances being overseas. We have to think of the kids in these cases. Of course, I would have loved to have brought the girls back to the USA, but there is no way the courts here would let me take them both out of their habitual residence because their mom committed adultery. So now, because of their mom's behaviour, their dad is forced to make a very difficult decision for his well-being which is ultimately for their well-being. This would be much easier if I was British; I could see them much more often. 

In hindsight, I should of at least got her to pay the lawyer's fees. 

Conrad, I hear you. To be honest, I don't know if she'll be able to fully confront herself. I don't think she is a POS of the highest order, not when I read about the antics of some of the other WW's on this board. But I think she acted selfishly, and I think she lacks moral fortitude, and I think she is a product of her home environment. Sadly, children of cheaters and abandoners are more likely to do the same when they grow up.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS Good to hear you have broken through many of the walls once before you

One thing ex and I did was admit we were both wrong and rugsweep

without addressing the problem, guess what... it always returned

if...if she dumps POSOM, she may return to you for comfort

to prop herself up until the next POSOM come along

POSOMs are like the Smith's of Matrix ...... everywhere

watch the 3rd Matrix, when Trinity and Neo fly out of the machine city

Trinity sees the clear blue skies, that is what you will see when you step

outside yourself and see everything


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

StayStrong -

You're killing me, man. But in a god way. One day you're sounding like you're typing your post from the ledge of a tall building, feet dangling. The next post....

But we are of course delighted with your new perspective. And I always thought a change of venue and some time in your own country and culture might be therapeutic. And Florida! Good on you.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Florida, I know someone in Florida who could use a SS
a$$ whuppin. Just say'n.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

"POSOMs are like the Smith's of Matrix ...... everywhere"

Ha! That's a good one, Chuck.

BW, I know - I have been highly inconsistent. But I do feel a change occurring. The real test will be when I removed from my girls and I am standing in front the mirror saying to myself "What kind of Dad are you? You should be over there even if you hate it."

GP, sorry bud.. I'm no longer offering my services as a TAM merc. I'm putting my violent days behind me. The deed is done, and I am no longer in rage mode.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Yes,SS, time will tell. I do think the change will do you good. And like I said before, nothing is set in stone, you may be in Florida a week and then say, oh, no, big mistake, then you go back. But you won't know until you try. 

GP, I for one have NOT put my rage behind me, probably never will. Send me the Garden Gnome's location.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Bullwinkle,

I believe there will come a time when you prefer peace in your heart. Your rage will fade eventually. That may not come until after you've had your revenge, or you know that and your wife are 'over', or you are some months or years into your R. We may have to wait until your epilogue to see this written. 

But keep fighting. Keep fighting for your daughter and what's right.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

controlled rage can define you

uncontrolled rage can destroy you

one of...Frank's Top 10 Rules of Life


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I agree with you about controlled versus uncontrolled rage, Chucky, the problem is always not having the time to differentiate. 

SS, thanks, I hear you. All TAMSPEAK aside, one of the reasons I loved your thread was I thought you were the one sumbytch who had it worse than me, no offense. 

If you can do this,you really are an inspiration.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

I agree BW on MrsSS totally

I was trained by one of the best

but in this case it was 100% me, I was a teen

it was at first to keep me from committing suicide

then it was about me

then it was me v. the world

in a way it still is, bring A game daily


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I hear you, Chuck. It's so easy to forget that, to bring your A game every day. And nobody said it'd be easy but Lord help me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

GutPunch said:


> Florida, I know someone in Florida who could use a SS
> a$$ whuppin. Just say'n.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


StayStrong - GutPunch - and the Garden Gnome

Steel Cage Match


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

i'd pay ................. either PPV or bond hearing


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

IDK, Chuck, I think GP would have so much of that Uncontrolled Rage that you wouldn't get your money's worth....


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

zap we ALL cry..........any one object?

i'm free with email n hang out spots

just say it to my face, all i ask


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> I agree with you about controlled versus uncontrolled rage, Chucky, the problem is always not having the time to differentiate.
> 
> SS, thanks, I hear you. All TAMSPEAK aside, one of the reasons I loved your thread was I thought you were the one sumbytch who had it worse than me, no offense.
> 
> If you can do this,you really are an inspiration.


TBH, I don't know if I am 'doing' anything, B-Dubs. I just stopped fighting and let go. I can't say it was entirely a conscious process, but I do seem to have turned a corner. You kind of know it when you know it. It really is a death.. there is a mourning process. Who knows, I could just be in a numbed-out phase. 

Zappy had it pretty bad, too. I think we both had some serious PTS-f'ing-D going on. Zappy, I hope you're doing better. 

Even if you put me in a room alone with OM right now, I don't know if I would feel the need to pummel him. I'd actually want to ask him some questions. Sure, the answers to some of those questions may make we want to pummel him.

I do think many OM's and OW's feel guilt, regret, shame, etc. Deeply, in fact. And I don't think they can really conceive of the pain we BS's go through. Most of them don't search the internet and read BS horror stories. It takes pretty sensitive, conscientious and conflicted person to do that. Someone who probably wouldn't fall prey to an affair in the first place.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

One of my friends told me months ago I would eventually feel pity for my STBX. He was right, I finally do feel it. For the longest time I was jealous of her in a way, thinking she'd 'won', or just felt immensely low about myself. I pity her now because in a very real way she has F'ed up her life and it will never be the same again. Or as good as it could have been. And I think she knows this now.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

I can promise you this. 

She did not win. 

She has to look in a mirror every day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Oh, I believe that too GP.

I think that's what came across in our recent phone call. 

I'm thankful she can see it now, that she behaved abysmally, and hopefully she can grow from this experience. I don't want her to suffer. There were times when I did, when I had revenge fantasies, when I was reading up on stats of relationships which started from affairs, reading up on the karma threads, etc. Now? I wish her no harm. 

I think maybe she had a mid-life crisis early. Marriage, work, family, she couldn't handle it all and something offered her a escape. Many people turn to drugs and alcohol. I think we know a few of those people, don't we? My wife never did drugs or drank. Her outlet was music and dance. Maybe she got swept away by performing music (her lifelong dream) and had stars in her eyes. She admits the music aspect had a lot to do with it. 

Whatever the reasons (and I do recognize I was part of the reason), our family is now broken. And we were a great little family, a very affectionate foursome with a long loving life ahead of us. 

So I wonder what God has in store for us.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Sometimes I think there should be affair crisis centers or rehab centers. I'm not exactly sure what it would look like or how neutral the agenda could be, but there is definitely a need for good information and assistance. 

Maybe someone could invent a dopamine or PEA suppressor and we could pour them into the drinks of our waywards at the right time.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS do not nuke this thread but

with your progress, think you may want to start a new one?

if you do.... leave a link here to new one


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

I know this was the most painful
experience in my life. There's not
even a close second.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> I know this was the most painful
> experience in my life. There's not
> even a close second.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi GP - 

Amen to that, I hear you! Good luck next week, when the next phase of the story unfolds -- be well, and stay strong.

Cheers, - A12


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

staystrong said:


> TBH, I don't know if I am 'doing' anything, B-Dubs. I just stopped fighting and let go. I can't say it was entirely a conscious process, but I do seem to have turned a corner. You kind of know it when you know it. It really is a death.. there is a mourning process. Who knows, I could just be in a numbed-out phase.
> 
> Zappy had it pretty bad, too. I think we both had some serious PTS-f'ing-D going on. Zappy, I hope you're doing better.
> 
> ...


Anger is closly tied to your sense of well being as a person and your feeling of worthyness. The less worthy you feel the more likely you are going to want and feel like "fighting" to get that back. In a divorce we are forced to realize that some people no longer love us or maybe nev er had. why is our anger so deep?: Because you loved your spouse with all your heart, you gave so much of yourself to her, you trusted her aand you were faithful. You thought you would be together forever!!

We have to accept that our feelings are going to be overwhelming sometimes. were hurt, were disapointed and were confused.Our self worth has been shattered. Divorse brings an abrupt end to a life we knew, our security is smashed. what parts of the marriage were real, whats a lie? Justified anger is fine..... we need to reconize it and understand it. what we cant do is act out on it. this to shall pass... its hard but it will.. we just need to give ourselves the time and permission to heal..


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Thinking of you, SS. Hope you're okay.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Welp, I need a 2x4.

I got sucked into an argument tonight. I should've bit my lip but could not. 

I started smoking again. I'm not happy about it. It's been years and years, and before I even met my wife. 

She smelled it on me and got on my case. She helps people quit smoking and it really bothers her to see people smoke. Later on, we had a text chat and it came out that I have smoked in front of the girls. It started off with joining a neighbor for a social smoke, and then slid down from there. I'm not proud of it, mind you, and thankfully the girls are very anti-smoking and D6 accosts me all the time about it. 

My wife asked me not to smoke in front of the girls or let them know I smoke. I should've just said "okay" and let the white lie go until discovered, but I told her look they know. I figured maybe it's better to be upfront about it than for her to find out through them. She was really disappointed and let me know. "i'm really disappointed, I cannot believe my daughter have a smoking father ". Made me out to be a terrible father because they now they will smoke when they grow up. I stopped for 10 years and I know what it takes to stop. Right now I don't want to stop. 

I should've avoided the whole damn thing and just unh-hunhed her but I have this stupid compulsion to tell the truth. The thing that set me off was earlier in the conversation she said about smoking "if you do that subconsciously to punish me...you don't punish me, you punish yourself and our kids". First off, how can I know what my subsconscious is thinking? Second, how does she always bring back to herself? The rest of complaints were logical, but this one just miffed me. 

Then I made the mistake of redirecting to her cheating. I had wanted to say "i'm really disappointed, I cannot believe my daughter have a cheating mother" but avoided that. But I was annoyed that here she was going on and on about the smoking and it affecting our kids' lives, while I am sitting here thinking I'd never be smoking if she hadn't caused this damn stressful situation. So I pointed out that smoking was not high in terms of the impact on the kids versus what the affair and the divorce is doing. That I'm worried our daughters will wind up having affairs and divorcing when they grow up. I mean seriously, she has some freaking nerve. I'm about to move back to the US because of her misbehaviour and smoking is what 'disappoints' her. I know, I know.. I got sucked in. She then said yes, she's aware of the tendency, but that the girls will see one day that their mom is happy as a result. So apparently it's all okay because my wife is "happier". Honestly, what a b1tch. She is living in a fantasy world of right and wrong. I know this will slowly morph into me being a world class jerk to her, compared to the amazing wonderful OM. 

Anyhow, I should have bit my stupid tongue and I did not. And now I'm going to pay for it.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

You have got to be Shytting me. 

Yes, smoking is bad for you. And yes, it sets a bad example for your kids. But. Here's what I would have said. 

Are you seriously giving me SHYT for puffing a few cigarettes after you cheated, destroyed our marriage, our family, destined our kids to being probably messed up emotionally for the rest of their lives, I'm going back to the US away from kids because I am so unwelcome in your shytty country where gown men wear Capri pants and all look a little light in the loafers?

How f**king dare you, you miserable tramp. I'll smoke whenever and wherever I want. Just you you f**ked ans screwed wherever you wanted. f U. Hope you die today. 

That's what I would say. It's not cool, calm, or dispassionate. Where has all this be-nice behavior gotten you, SS?


BW.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

What he said...


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Wow, BW! Having a rough day? You got the fire in you today.

It is ridiculous, isn't it? Absurd even. Have a little GD perspective, woman. It's always been her pet peeve, I suppose that's why. She made OM quit his cigarillo habit.

I wasn't exactly nice with her, but I don't have 'livid' inside me anymore. I'm done with that. If she can't see it, she can't see it. And I'd rather things be smooth than to rehash the past again. It gets us nowhere. She's convinced herself she was in the right, that she is happier. 

Oh another beauty: before that chat, she hung up on me when I lit a cigarette while talking to her. 

I think she's agitated because her, OM and I had to face the mediator today. It went fine. 

I went and visited our mutual lawyer across the street after seeing her go there to drop something off. I had some questions about the court date. My wife was asking me what I was doing there, and then called me up after to say she couldn't "trust" me and that she should have gotten a non-amicable divorce. She thinks I am trying to rig something behind her back. I had to pet her and show her why she was being a loon. 

Who is this person and where did my wife go?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Yeah, I'm pissed. Not about what happened today, per se, but about the whole damn thing. I'm pissed because she chose someone else over me, because she enjoys f'ing someone else more than me, and because my self-esteem has taken a hit. And she has this way of making me feel incompetent, because I've taken that hit. It's as if I still have something to prove. I hate it. It gets me riled up inside.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

Im sorry if I came on so strong. But I just don't get it. I understand not wanting to rehash the past over and over but, Jezzus H. Christ, she ****ed you over worse than any woman can hurt a man and you're suppose to be calm? This is what I will never understand about all this TAM stuff. It seems lie a formula for endless humiliation and sht eating to me. I would have gone to that counseling session with OM and X and broken a chair over his head and then lit a f*king cigarette. 

I apologize, SS, don't take my advice, look at how screwed up I am.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

BW,

I'm right on board with you. Some days I hate the b1tch. 

After seeing them yesterday, my mind movies are back. They are the worst - they just take over your head. Cheating is so f'ing selfish and wrong. I do hope he cheats on her one day, just so she can know in this life how it feels. 

PS - It wasn't a counseling session. It was a court-ordered mediation at the courthouse.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

I still can't get over the smoking in front of the
children comment. 

Does she even realize that she is shacked up with AP
and living with a man all while married to someone else.

SMDH
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> I still can't get over the smoking in front of the
> children comment.
> 
> Does she even realize that she is shacked up with AP
> ...


She's never done anything wrong... ever. Their is nothing to realize.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

I would smoke around her, on the phone with her, any time

I came in contact with her, light em up

even if you light up and let it burn up

Mrs. SS and I would not last two weeks, that I promise

keep in mind, i'm the type who likes to escalate things

get everything out in the open, no pu$$yfooting

when you are in control, you have that ability

next time you have to see her, light up

blow smoke through your nose like a 1950's NYC gangster

look over at her, stare her right in the eyes and say

"you don't like my smoking, go duck yourself b!tch"

turn around, walk away, listen to nothing she spews


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Wow, BW! Having a rough day? You got the fire in you today.
> 
> It is ridiculous, isn't it? Absurd even. Have a little GD perspective, woman. It's always been her pet peeve, I suppose that's why. She made OM quit his cigarillo habit.
> 
> ...


She's showing you who she is.

Believe her.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Sorry again for coming on so strong, yesterday, SS. And I realize now, yes, it was a mediation session. 

I thought about your situation and what she'd said to you. And how several others here have weighed in with similar views to mine - and what's occured to me was it had really struck a nerve - for every one of us out here reading your story, we've had that moment. You find out your loving wife is punching trunks with a garden gnome or a music teacher, or worst of all, an Irishman with brown chicklets for teeth. Yet, then, in spite of that, in spite of everything, they find some chickenshyt thing to lecture YOU on, to be patronizing and scoldy. And you want to LOSE YOUR MIND with rage.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

Bullwinkle said:


> And you want to LOSE YOUR MIND with rage.


I think the important thing here, is that's exactly what they want you to do too!


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

rage is like plutonium


it can be your best friend

or worst enemy

how it is used, is up to individual


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Chucky is right again


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

BW Southern rock lives in the South

but in pockets

mostly 35 and up group

everyone stays with what they listened to in their teens

38 Special, LS, ARS..... only a select few were true Southern rockers

but they still sell out most appearances

btw best place to meet Southern Belle with a wild streak


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

That is some good stuff, Chuck, I loved all of it.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

BW you would love 

Johnny Van Zant - Brickyard Road - YouTube

defined my summer 1990


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Great song, Chuck. Ain't heard it in years.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I was always kinda partial to Tuesdays Gone.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Chuck, you're a funny man.

I wish I could just let go of all my feelings. I'm so tired of circling back to the same old ones. The hurt, the sense of things could have been avoided had I been more clued in. At some point, my wife knew what she was doing. She knew she was enjoying conversations with OM and drawing closer to him. She knew that she was being unfaithful in her heart. And she allowed it. She allowed it to escalate and then finally she went for it. It didn't "just happen". It was a series of micro-betrayals.

It's going to take me years I realize to get over this. The golden year of being together, having a complete life. Is there a common thread amongst BS's that we are naive or something? That we pick spouses that don't have the same value system?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Am I sh!tty dad for planning to go back to the US? I keep asking myself this. It's not abandonment in the emotional sense, but it is physical separation. 

I asked myself what would make me stay?

If they spoke English here. 
If I had family or a lot of good friends here. 
If I had a girlfriend.
If I had a lot of money or a better job.

Am I not putting my kids as a priority? I always had in life. Will they understand why I need to leave? How can a young child not think it's because I don't love them enough to stay?


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

I'm struggling with this moving 300 miles away. I feel for you.

Bottom line though, we are no use to our kids if we go off the deepend.

Once you go back to the US, do you have much chance of getting back if you change your mind?


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Focus Scale:
1-You
2-kids
45,789-inhabiting Saturn
45,790-R with wife
45,791-Finding out if Keith Moon ever sober for a concert


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

SS

Your kids need an emotionally strong happy father.

Your miles from home, no support or family, a country you don't 
speak the language.

You may not get to see them as much as you want.


However, the time you do get will be more productive.
Your emotional well being is important to your children.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_I wish I could just let go of all my feelings. I'm so tired of circling back to the same old ones. The hurt, the sense of things could have been avoided had I been more clued in. At some point, my wife knew what she was doing. She knew she was enjoying conversations with OM and drawing closer to him. She knew that she was being unfaithful in her heart. And she allowed it. She allowed it to escalate and then finally she went for it. It didn't "just happen". It was a series of micro-betrayals.

It's going to take me years I realize to get over this. The golden year of being together, having a complete life. Is there a common thread amongst BS's that we are naive or something? That we pick spouses that don't have the same value system_?

I'm thinking maybe we were somewhat naïve, but unless this has happened to you before, it's hard to avoid being that way. 

You marry someone and there's that assumption that you'll both be faithful, you trust them with your emotions and give them your heart, and if heaven forbid there is infidelity, your "soulmate" will see the error of their ways and come crawling back begging forgiveness.

You can't imagine anything breaking you apart, but now we know differently. People are either lacking to begin with or change into something else. It's hard to imagine someone going down the road of cheating before giving you a heads up that something's wrong, especially when children are involved. 

In the end, it's just the way it is, nothing you can do other than move forward. I hope coming back to the U.S. helps with your recovery. I agree, it's going to be a long haul. It's been a year and I thought by now I would be feeling much better than I do. Mine keeps making cryptic comments via text, like "My heart is broken too" and "It's complicated, I wish it wasn't" and the classic, "I still worry about you, I can't help it". 

I've had to tell her please text me only about our child. The other ones set me back.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

SS,

My sister's X was in a similar state. Had a lot of mental and emotional problems after the D. Went off to Chile for about 6 months to get his head straight. Got it done, came back and is by all accounts an exceptional loving dad.

If you need to do it for you, then do it.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Good stuff, MainCourse.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_Good stuff, MainCourse_

Thanks BW. Just trying to help our friend through this.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I agree with Tron and MainCourse, as you know, SS. Come back, heal for a while. 

Then figure out the nest course of action.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Thanks everybody. Good summary, Maincourse. 

Yes, I am more secure with the decision. I've gotten some good support from a few of my international couple friends. The dads said they would do the same thing, as much as it would hurt. They know it is especially hard for me because I was a very involved dad. 

I can live outside France for up to 3 years and still keep my 10 year visa. So that does give me time to think things through. 

I simply can not deal with my STBX anymore and try to avoid her at all costs. Her attitude, her complete lack of reasoning and perspective, her lack of respect. I will be relieved to be away from her. That is one good thing to come out of this!

I still miss sex with her. Dammit. But at the same time I am disgusted by lying, cheating, justifying person she is.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

France! Dammit, SS, now the truth finally! I had fifty bucks you were in Holland!

Anyways, I still understand and believe toy are doing the right thing.

BW
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Nope, in France. And I don't think there's a "Le TAM" here.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS - 

Je comprende. Vous etes un bon homme. 

Come home.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

That flexibility with the visa is good. I don't know what you do for work etc but the UK could be an option for you in future. I think I've mentioned it before but its what I'd look into.

UK to France is a doddle, English speaking of course and I've know plenty of women get as hot for American accents as American girls alledgedy do for brits.

Or get your ass fluent in French.

I think you've absolutely made the right call for "the now", I hope your able to come through this fit and string fella. Making the decision to move for yourself is SO hard but its what I'm doing too and I felt a wright lift off straight away.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Good advice, NM. 

SS, the fact you been living amongst the Frogs all this time, that changes the whole perspective. Do you recall the old show Cheers? Remember the character Woody Harrelson played, the sweet, albeit, clueless bumpkin from Indiana? He had a beautiful girlfriend - enter a handsome Frenchman, who kept telling Woody over and over, "Woody, I'm going to steal your girlfriend!"


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

BW, where's my fifty? I said France

LOL j/k


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Northern Monkey said:


> That flexibility with the visa is good. I don't know what you do for work etc but the UK could be an option for you in future. I think I've mentioned it before but its what I'd look into.


He's heard there are some women in Britain that aren't "happiernow"


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Northern Monkey said:


> That flexibility with the visa is good. I don't know what you do for work etc but the UK could be an option for you in future. I think I've mentioned it before but its what I'd look into.
> 
> UK to France is a doddle, English speaking of course and I've know plenty of women get as hot for American accents as American girls alledgedy do for brits.
> 
> ...


NM, I know you know how hard this choice is, but yes it does feel like a weight has been lifted. At first there was the inertia to "tough it out" for the kids but eventually I realised I can't be happy or fulfilled here. There's also a financial and career element at play.

The UK option is one I am considering. My father has a UK passport through naturalisation so that may open a door for me. I was very close to citizenship through marriage here in France, but obviously that's no longer an option. 

The thought of seeing my girls only 5 weeks out of the year is still mind boggling.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> Good advice, NM.
> 
> SS, the fact you been living amongst the Frogs all this time, that changes the whole perspective. Do you recall the old show Cheers? Remember the character Woody Harrelson played, the sweet, albeit, clueless bumpkin from Indiana? He had a beautiful girlfriend - enter a handsome Frenchman, who kept telling Woody over and over, "Woody, I'm going to steal your girlfriend!"


Hahahaa.. I totally remember that episode. Good reference.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Chucky, your fifty, the check is in the mail.

StayStrong, we love you, brother, we all really understand how hard it will be to leave your kids but they will benefit long term as you slowly get your strength back. 

I'll meet you at the airport in Miami and will buy you a grilled cheese sandwich.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Thanks BW, I love you guys too and I'll see you in DC one day, for sure. 

Still cycling through the emotions over here. Does it ever end? I've been feeling emotionally deadened lately. I think my mind is starting to protect itself from itself. I think I need a professional to talk to about this. I certainly have no amorous feelings for my wife anymore. Looking back at this saga, all I feel for her is disgust, contempt and an indifference to her well-being. She's so ... full of it. Maybe Conrad was right when he said she's a POS of the highest order.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

She IS, SS. 

I dislike the TAM Kool-Aid sippers that go on and on about wishing their STBXs well and how maybe they'll get together for coffee as friends, blah blah blah. Are you Shytting me?


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

I wish happiernow no ill at all. Frankly though I don't give a shyt tbh. So long as she is good with the boys.

If there had been cheating on top? I think coffee would be the last thing on my mind.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Maybe you're right about the cheating making a difference, NM.

When WS had discussed divorce in the past, she always references her mum and dad. Dad cheated on mum repeatedly, mum left dad. years later, they are like best friends, cups of tea, frequent phone calls.

I always told my WS that we are not your mum and dad, I just don't have it in me to be friends.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I could see it in the case of where the BS leaves the WS and some amends are made years later. 

In my case, I don't think it will ever be possible either, BW, considering that WS was the one to leave and the circumstances surrounding it. 

But... you never know.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Northern Monkey said:


> I wish happiernow no ill at all.


I've got that covered


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)




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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I just need to find a good woman.

... And then cheat on her so I can be really happy.


Isn't that how it works?


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

I had my usual smart azz answer written out but then deleted it. 

You know in your heart that when you find that woman, you will throw your heart and soul into it and not think for a second that you could ever cheat on her. If only because you know the agony of it. 

I honestly believe in Karma, and more simply, that what goes around comes around, SS. 

So come home to the States, rest and mend. Your day is coming.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

For sure, BW. It was more tongue in cheek than anything else. A little pointed sarcasm, that's all.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I know. 

But you really will live to be vindicated.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS

Never condemn people in your future for the sins committed by people from your past


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Sage advice, Chuck.

Another thing I won't do is assume that my partner will tell me what's really on her mind. Of the many things I have found frustrating, it was the fact that my wife could not have an honest, sit-down adult conversation about what she saw wrong with the relationship.

This has been on my mind lately. I understand that sometimes we are afraid to go to our partner about something, or don't want to hurt/offend them, but if you don't raise the alarm about things, your disappointments will increase. Like what BW was writing his thread about all the things women told him they wished their husbands would do. If they'd only really TELL their husbands that so the husbands knows how annoyed they are or how much happier they'd be, it would work wonders. The alternative approach seems to be subtle suggestions or silence. Or nagging and sarcasm if they are feeling negative and outspoken. 

So in the end, when the affair has been revealed, the WS brings up all these "reasons" which to the BS sound like terrible excuses. And the BS will say "But you never came out and told me about that" and the WS will say "Yes I did! Many times!" when he/she is referring to the unclear and half-assed attempts at communication. How hard is it to sit a person down and say the words "I'm not happy" and then list the reasons "because of x,y,z" and say that you really want the marriage to work but it can't if some changes aren't made? Clear and direct emotional communication in a rational form? 

My wife to this day says she brought up her issues. She did not in any way that indicated the level of unhappiness she claims she was experiencing.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Sage advice, Chuck.
> 
> Another thing I won't do is assume that my partner will tell me what's really on her mind.


It's safe to assume that she will not.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

You're right, Conrad. This would be good subject matter for father/son talks, if I had a son. Sorry for the rant!


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_If they'd only really TELL their husbands that so the husbands knows how annoyed they are or how much happier they'd be, it would work wonders. The alternative approach seems to be subtle suggestions or silence. Or nagging and sarcasm if they are feeling negative and outspoken. 

So in the end, when the affair has been revealed, the WS brings up all these "reasons" which to the BS sound like terrible excuses. And the BS will say "But you never came out and told me about that" and the WS will say "Yes I did! Many times!" when he/she is referring to the unclear and half-assed attempts at communication. How hard is it to sit a person down and say the words "I'm not happy" and then list the reasons "because of x,y,z" and say that you really want the marriage to work but it can't if some changes aren't made? Clear and direct emotional communication in a rational form? 

My wife to this day says she brought up her issues. She did not in any way that indicated the level of unhappiness she claims she was experiencing_

Having been there, I think it's entirely possible that they don't want to engage in clear, direct and rational communication. They at some point make their minds up that it's over, that they no longer love us. It could be years prior to dday, but they emotionally opt out. They really don't want to fix it, who knows why. Are they damaged? Are they just bad, selfish, flawed people? Do they want something or someone else instead of us? In that case bringing up any issues they may have with us would be pointless to them. 

If the marriage was of value to them, they would have a direct conversation about the problems they feel exist, and there are no doubt many who do, both men and women. I think my wife just simply did not want to be married to me or invest herself in our family. She has told me there was nothing I could have done differently. She wanted a change. It was the totality of who I am and having to function within the family that she didn't want anymore. She tired of it all.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> If the marriage was of value to them, they would have a direct conversation about the problems they feel exist, and there are no doubt many who do, both men and women. I think my wife just simply did not want to be married to me or invest herself in our family. She has told me there was nothing I could have done differently. She wanted a change. It was the totality of who I am and having to function within the family that she didn't want anymore. She tired of it all.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Great post, Maincourse.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_Great post, Maincourse_

Thanks A12. A blind squirrel will occasionally find a nut.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Spot on MainC!! Now that everything is over with mine, well minus her periodic reaches, I would love a debate between her and I in a controlled setting with a moderator. It would be a debauchery


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

So Chuck, your ex still makes "overtures"?


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Agree with all. MaiCourse, you are a sleeper cell, you gotta interject more often to this group of reprobates. 

A12, please don't take offense, but as a man, all you ever hear is, women want COMMUNICATION, ABOVE ALL ELSE! I just wish he would talk to me! All he ever did was watch Golf TV or his favorite porn site Big'uns! 

And then without exception, every poor sap on this blog has had the same experience as SS or MinCourse, where they claim they told us, but then,it didn't really matter anyways.

My fathers's advice to me with my future wife was - Agree to ANYTHING, as long as you don't have to talk about it.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus

...But Wives are from Pluto

(They need to add that subtitle to the book)


Just kidding, of course


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

LOL, SS. 

My sister says its all B.S., that's it's all about money, power and the schlonger, in that order.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> A12, please don't take offense, but as a man, all you ever hear is, women want COMMUNICATION, ABOVE ALL ELSE! I just wish he would talk to me! All he ever did was watch Golf TV or his favorite porn site Big'uns!


Hi BW - 

This topic comes up in NNMNG. It is where society has sent men and women the wrong messages about relationships. There does need to be communication, but of the right type -- wife respects husband and follows his lead, husband protects wife and cherishes her feelings  If she wants to mate successfully with a masculine man, the smart feminine wife will not expect him to be her girlfriend when it comes to chit chat, just sayin' 

Cheers, - A12


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Damn, 12, I remember the quote...... Tron made me read it....l.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_Agree with all. MaiCourse, you are a sleeper cell, you gotta interject more often to this group of reprobates._ 

I might generate one cogent thought per day, then I need to rest :sleeping: I think everyone here has made some great points.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> So Chuck, your ex still makes "overtures"?


Hi Chuck - 

I, too, am most intruiged to know about these "periodic reaches" 

Best,- A12


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Without going into much detail (most is on my Crossroads II thread) she had constantly emailed me. The reason I note this, we had no children and I refused to give out my new home #. She wanted me to rescue her. Was not going to happen. She would dress nice when she would come over to swap out the dogs. And a couple months ago, she told me she had the weekend off and would be at her apartment all weekend. She was going to do spaghetti. Told me "feel free to come over. i would like it if you did." LOL

I declined the invite. Plus I was already seeing my current gal. I think only weak people cheat. If I wanted to cheat, I'd tell my partner first. About this time she blocked me from FB. A friend had to tell me. My ex and I were never "friends" on FB, even before things went south. I never emailed her from FB....so the point in this was????

Always complimenting me on my doctoral classes and works published. Praising how smart I am (lol and this......is from a very recently D'd ex....yyyeah!). But if you read my three main threads......in the second one...she had a non-negotiable. She declined......game over. Was I cruel....maybe. But I wanted to try and save everything, she "tried" to act like she did not. So I gave her what she thought she wanted.

My current thread has links to the previous two on the first link. I am in such a better place now. Today would have been our 14th ann. I'm going to hold up here because I don't want to run an overspill. In short, my ex never stopped loving me, she stopped respecting me. As a man, I was forced to disengage in loving her.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Very interesting Chuck. Life is so strange. Anniversaries are tough, but we're tougher.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

MC It was nowhere near as tough as I thought a few months ago. I have several more milestones before it is complete. This Thanksgiving and Christmas, and the day we met....that will be in August. Would have been 16 yrs.

We all cope, mourn and move on in different ways. I will always say I got off light...no kids. I call (Re)Group, Zillard and GutPunch my amigos because they hit TAM about the same time I did. Each had children. I would bet a few Benjamin's each would have traveled a much easier path had they not had children. But all three are in much much better places. I live vicariously through them as they travel their road. I may not post again on TAM for ten years but I will always remember we all four rode the roller coaster at the same time.

I remember a guy posted the BS is left in the dust by WAS at first. But six months to a year later, the BS usually is the one in a better place. I'd like to find that post.....I's needs to like it a few times!


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Hope you keep posting, Chuck.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_We all cope, mourn and move on in different ways. I will always say I got off light...no kids. I call (Re)Group, Zillard and GutPunch my amigos because they hit TAM about the same time I did. Each had children. I would bet a few Benjamin's each would have traveled a much easier path had they not had children. But all three are in much much better places. I live vicariously through them as they travel their road. I may not post again on TAM for ten years but I will always remember we all four rode the roller coaster at the same time._

I've thought about the child thing, and just speaking for myself, I don't think it would have made it easier for me if I didn't have my daughter. Actually, she has been a source of strength for me (although she has no idea). Every smile, every evening spent playing games or watching some stupid TV show (Wipeout! is highly recommended) and every night hearing "love you daddy" before she goes to sleep has made my life worth living.

I just wish you and all the BS on here the best. My heart has been touched by so many people and the help I've received I will always be deeply grateful for.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I am wirth you, MainCourse. If I didn't have my little liepshen by my side, there's no telling what might have happened to me.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> Hope you keep posting, Chuck.



I do................... nobody reads it

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Chuck71 said:


> I do................... nobody reads it
> 
> :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


How'd you figure out I've been skipping them?


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Kids are what pull our arse out of bed in the morning when otherwise, we'd mail it in for the day. Dreams got me out of the bed for years, I'm kinda wanting a couple "curtain climbers" now. May happen soon..... I am more child focused than M focused. She (new gal) was told this up front. As a fellow-ette divorce survivor, she understands completely. It was maybe a couple months into us dating and she asked me why I wanted kids. I replied, "Well I want to have someone who I can leave all my junk and chit too!"

During my D, mom went from a TV-aholic and sleeping 10 hours a day (retired) to a 'traveling secretary', keeping track of my appts. and everything. Was she needed....no. But did I act like she was....I sure did. Mothers are priceless and I love her dearly but....as much as I hate to say it......she will always love me, more than I do her. But that's what mothers are all about.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Conrad said:


> How'd you figure out I've been skipping them?


OMG :rofl: That was hilarious.

Mine is just plain boring compared to Group, BW, Z and GPs

Maybe I should post my ex broke into my house and held me at gunpoint wanting me to sleep with her.......hmmmm

Nah......her a$$ is too big to fit through a window!


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Damn, Chucky, you're going to see Lynard Skynard and your x's azz is too big to fit through the window. This is getting interesting now. My suggestion is have the gunpoint sex with while she's still stuck in the window, legs flailing helplessly and howling like a scalded dog.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Seeing my ex squirm through a window just reminds me of a family pack of bacon.

Although new gal informed me via visual, she enjoys stripping to

Whitesnake - Still of the Night - YouTube

she said all guys are visual

my reply....come closer, see how tactile I am 8>)


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Can we all agree that Chuck needs his own TV show?

Maybe Conrad and Chuck could do a Love Line show a la Dr. Drew and Adam Carolla


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Maybe so, SS. But right now I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that family pack of bacon. Don't know whether or not to start making pancakes or throw up in my trash can.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

BW ya want me to post one of my ex's dating site pics here? funny she said she found her "soul mate" but her ads are still up. I warn you though..... you will lose your appetite for several days


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Can we all agree that Chuck needs his own TV show?
> 
> Maybe Conrad and Chuck could do a Love Line show a la Dr. Drew and Adam Carolla


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Let's see it, Chuck. Is it like a horrible train wreck where you just have to look?


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

BW, all kidding aside....I will PM you the pic or any one who wishes to see it individually. I know I have every right to do so but, as I wrote about Coach A in my article......accept victory as humble as possible. 

Over the first month / month and half she got the better of me. Since then...180 degree turn.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Great..........will load in open forum (here) but not in PMs :scratchhead:

any computer gurus here???


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

PM away, Chuck, now I am really curious.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

How you bearing up? You've sounded a little more upbeart the last day or two....


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS should move to Brazil......score us some World Cup 2014 tickets


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> SS
> 
> How you bearing up? You've sounded a little more upbeart the last day or two....


Well, I went a whole week w/out any communication with X, save one 5-line chat. I suspect that's the reason. I ignored her follow-up emails about a couple of things because they were completely non-urgent. She texted a friend of mine to see if he'd heard from me, so I sent her a brief and very business-like email last night about the follow-ups. Today was the kid exchange (I picked the kids up from school) so I didn't want her to be concerned that I wouldn't be there for the kids. 

I will try to avoid her at all costs because I feel better when I do. I want to be done with her and "going dark" may help the process. In fact, I don't intend to see her until the divorce date in September if it's possible. The girls will be with me during July in the USA, and then they'll be with X during August for the vacation here, so I may be able to manage it. Once I move back to the USA after the divorce, we won't see each other at all. 

If possible, I will try to keep all conversations about child issues limited to email. The question is how much can I be involved in the decision-making of their lives when I move to the USA and she is the primary caretaker? What can I actually do? I won't be there for the day to day so my role as a guiding parent will, sadly, fade away. I can Skype all I want with them, but children that age aren't able to discuss their lives with you. I grapple with this dilemma, but I will always be there if she wants input or we need to discuss a behavioral or health issue. I want to know about all of those things, but I just want our conversations to be brief and infrequent. I don't even want to hear her voice; I just want some time away from her to help me move on.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

The flip side of course is that I still wrestle with the past and I fear the future. The years I spent with X and starting our family were the best years of my life and all I saw was a golden future in front of us. That future has been amputated. You've heard of 'phantom limbs'? In my case, it's a 'phantom life'. My life has been amputated and I keep sensing it's still there, only to look down to see that it isn't.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Wow, StayStrong, powerful stuff. It's painful beyond any words. 

But you're doing the right thing. I had a boss who once told me that in his experience everybody has a "lost year" in his life. Death, disease, divorce. But that if you can get through it without eating your gun or hooking up the tailpipe, you'll be okay. 

And you'll be okay. And your kids will be okay.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I'm not sure I will be okay, but it's more important that my kids be okay. X has a loving family and the girls are happy here. I don't know what effect my leaving will have, only time will tell.

I'm coming up one year, and while some things have certainly improved since D-Day, there is a deep-seated pain that I think will take years to move through. Especially given the physical separation of the family.

And yes, I do miss my wife. But not like I used to. I do not pine for her because I have stuffed that away. As much as my heart is hardening into a tough leathery fist, if I want, I can vividly remember the radiant woman that she is. Then I kick myself for the negativity I demonstrated at times, for my hang-ups, my stressful moments, my own failures as a husband. Then I remind myself, NO, the bulk of the marriage was warm, loving, respectful. 

I'm sure my wife senses the calculus of pain here... certainly the unhappiness she says she experienced in our marriage does not equal what she is experiencing now, and measures far below what I and our children must endure. I know I am in her mind. I know she suffers on a daily level, if only for fleeting moments. My pain, I dare say, is incessant.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> The flip side of course is that I still wrestle with the past and I fear the future. The years I spent with X and starting our family were the best years of my life and all I saw was a golden future in front of us. That future has been amputated. You've heard of 'phantom limbs'? In my case, it's a 'phantom life'. My life has been amputated and I keep sensing it's still there, only to look down to see that it isn't.


Hi SS - 

Very eloquently stated -- I can totally relate to this feeling, as I'm sure many of us can. I most definitely agree, the hardest part of the process, letting go of "the dream" of the future you imagined you'd be sharing. Regrets of the past and fears of the future are only human. The trick is disciplining yourself to recognize when those thoughts come, consciously return your focus to the present, and affirm the positives of all the good things you do have in your life. When your mind wanders to the past or future, it is just clouds drifitng over head -- don't latch on to the thought, let it drift away 

Warm Regards, - A12


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



staystrong said:


> The flip side of course is that I still wrestle with the past and I fear the future. The years I spent with X and starting our family were the best years of my life and all I saw was a golden future in front of us. That future has been amputated. You've heard of 'phantom limbs'? In my case, it's a 'phantom life'. My life has been amputated and I keep sensing it's still there, only to look down to see that it isn't.


I apologise for being the bubble popper but the limb you're missing was a third arm. Born from delusions.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> I apologise for being the bubble popper but the limb you're missing was a third arm. Born from delusions.


I respectfully disagree, the vision of a happy marriage and life together may have been perfectly valid and reality-based at one time, but people and situations change and become unviable.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



Awakening2012 said:


> I respectfully disagree, the vision of a happy marriage and life together may have been perfectly valid and reality-based at one time, but people and situations change and become unviable.


He married a woman with a history of leaving for other men and thought he could keep her by being a doormat. No different than how my own situation began.

Built on the grounds of improper thinking and delusional hopes.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Agreed, A12.  Thank you for the cloud trick.

If a genie appeared today and offered me a choice between $10 million dollars or going back in time to a point before the A where I could mend the relationship, I'd pick going back in time. And this is the sober me, not the flailing and wailing 'I can't live without her' me. 

I expect that if I will have "moved on" when I get to a point choose the money. (Or when I don't ask myself such philosophical questions!)

When I think about it more, even if the genie offered me a choice today between "guaranteed happiness" (of source or situation unknown) or going back in time, I'd still pick going back in time. Because I am attached, because I believe the four of us (X, the girls and myself) deserved that alternate future.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



staystrong said:


> Agreed, A12.  Thank you for the cloud trick.
> 
> If a genie appeared today and offered me a choice between $10 million dollars or going back in time to a point before the A where I could mend the relationship, I'd pick going back in time. And this is the sober me, not the flailing and wailing 'I can't live without her' me.
> 
> ...


And this is how you will keep yourself in continuum. Thinking you can fix what isn't yours to fix.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> He married a woman with a history of leaving for other men and thought he could keep her by being a doormat. No different than how my own situation began.
> 
> Built on the grounds of improper thinking and delusional hopes.


Daddio! (Up!) It's been a long time ... I see your perspective has not changed.  

I guess we don't see things the same way. Some people on TAM claim that BS's hold a fallacious belief that there's something they could have done to prevent a WS from cheating (or leaving). 

I don't buy into the idea that there's an inherent toxic duality in such couples, or that the WS is "doomed" to let his/her flaws resurface. Or that the BS was a doormat. I know people who are doormats; I'm not a doormat. If anything, it was my strong will and my wife's strong will that created our tensions. 

We can't apply our own situations to everyone else's. Individuals are complicated, and the combination of two people in a relationship is even moreso.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> And this is how you will keep yourself in continuum. Thinking you can fix what isn't yours to fix.


As you wish. I know we won't get anywhere discussing it.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> He married a woman with a history of leaving for other men and thought he could keep her by being a doormat. No different than how my own situation began.
> 
> Built on the grounds of improper thinking and delusional hopes.


The origins of our relationship were not rooted well, I won't argue that.

Sadly, so many divorces are caused by infidelity, and if we believe the few statistics out there, not many of the subsequent "affairages" are successful. For a number of good reasons. 

Consider me unenlightened back then. Or simply naive.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Daddio! (Up!) It's been a long time ... *I see your perspective has not changed*.
> 
> I guess we don't see things the same way. Some people on TAM claim that BS's hold a fallacious belief that there's something they could have done to prevent a WS from cheating (or leaving).
> 
> ...


You are entitled to your opinions of course, this I dare not take away from no one (nor am I able to). To say that my perspective hasn't changed is rather shortsighted though, as it never stops evolving. Far too much work to do on myself for it to stand still.

A relationship requires communication, the ability to build walls around the marriage from the outside worlds temptations. There will always be temptations. By viewing the world through the same window, together, you are telling each other that you both share the same values in life.

When one starts to open there own window or build walls around them only, that's when things start going off course. Can you honestly say you guys stood side by side the entire time and have the same open communication? Clearly not and that's okay, it obviously happens, look at all the examples we have seen throughout this site.

I am able to place myself in your scenario, of the genie. If I were to go back I know the exact day I would transfer myself to. Would I profess my love? No. Would I beg and plead for her to give me another chance? No. I would take my 2 children, pack my things and leave her to what she clearly wanted at the time.

The only salvation for yourself is true detachment and to focus on yourself, once and for all. Without it, your head will continue to bobble into the clouds from time to time and clarity becomes harder to find.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> I am able to place myself in your scenario, of the genie. If I were to go back I know the exact day I would transfer myself to. Would I profess my love? No. Would I beg and plead for her to give me another chance? No. I would take my 2 children, pack my things and leave her to what she clearly wanted at the time.
> 
> The only salvation for yourself is true detachment and to focus on yourself, once and for all. Without it, your head will continue to bobble into the clouds from time to time and clarity becomes harder to find.


I may do the same in thing if the genie landed me on D-Day. But my genie scenario puts me well before D-Day, and before the A. It's a Groundhog Day scenario. 

I'm in a much better place than I was than when you read my first thread. I will keep on moving forward. My main focus now is on myself (moving back to the USA) and on my children.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SS It is good to look back on the past and to reflect on it. 

But it will merit you nothing living in the past.

Getting up from the floor will allow you to have many more options

but raising up, you have to do this first, yourself


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I beleedat!


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

At the same time, all of us know that there's a LOT of pain and anger to work through. Besides the broken dreams, there are the lies, the deception, the betrayal, the crazy-making, the trauma of D-Day and so on. This does not go away easily. 

If our injuries were on the outside of our bodies, people we meet would constantly be asking us "Holy crap, what the heck HAPPENED to you?".


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Agreed, SS. 

Your move back to the States has given me pause to think about going home to Boston. I briefly thought about a brief hiatus to the Middle East but I can see the benefit of a change of venue, and to being close to family....


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Agreed, A12.  Thank you for the cloud trick.


SS- 

Re: the cloud trick:

Float On (by Modest Mouse)
Modest Mouse - Float On - YouTube

Cheers,- A12


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

StayStrong, you out there? Hey, you and Daddio aren't going to get into another Philosophy 101 seminar today, are you? I had to go lie down in a dark room yesterday after reading that.

So I'm watching an old Simpson's episode just now and I think of you - Marge has thrown Homer out so Homer is living in Bart's treehouse. After a few days, Homer knocks on the door and begs to be let back in - he says, "I'm starving and cold and my clothes are in rags and I haven't showered in three days and I'm as dirty as a Frenchman".


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Awakening2012 said:


> SS-
> 
> Re: the cloud trick:
> 
> ...


It's funny you mention this song, because that I have third degree of separation connections to that band in a couple of ways. My friend's sister is the long-term girlfriend of the lead singer of the band. The other connection is that I worked with an alt therapy business whose name comes from that song, and the drummer (I think) is one of their customers. I also saw them play in San Francisco, oh, I don't know, at least ten years ago. Good show! The lead singer, while a gifted songwriter, is just sort of obnoxious. 

Anyhow, small world.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> StayStrong, you out there? Hey, you and Daddio aren't going to get into another Philosophy 101 seminar today, are you? I had to go lie down in a dark room yesterday after reading that.
> 
> So I'm watching an old Simpson's episode just now and I think of you - Marge has thrown Homer out so Homer is living in Bart's treehouse. After a few days, Homer knocks on the door and begs to be let back in - he says, "I'm starving and cold and my clothes are in rags and I haven't showered in three days and I'm as dirty as a Frenchman".


No, not much more to say on the subject from my POV. 

Ha! I remember that episode. Classic. The myth is about the French being dirty is exactly that - a myth. It must go back to WWII or something, I don't know, but the only time you get a sense of the French as dirty is when you are on the Paris metro in the sweltering heat of summer. Then, yes, everyone seems to stink.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> It's funny you mention this song, because that I have third degree of separation connections to that band in a couple of ways. My friend's sister is the long-term girlfriend of the lead singer of the band. The other connection is that I worked with an alt therapy business whose name comes from that song, and the drummer (I think) is one of their customers. I also saw them play in San Francisco, oh, I don't know, at least ten years ago. Good show! The lead singer, while a gifted songwriter, is just sort of obnoxious.
> 
> Anyhow, small world.


Cool! OK for something more mauldin (and not that we need it!) but for indulgence here's the ultimate classic crap retro "looking back" song:

The Way We Were:
The Way We Were - YouTube

Sorry, this just came to me in a moment of melancoly, and bittersweetness.

In Solidarity, A12


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Angry today. Just f'ing angry.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

StayStrong -

From a guy who spends most waking hours in a perpetual rage, I'm not surprised you're angry. 

But what's going on? Something new happen? Spill your guts. 


BW


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Nothing new per se, BW. 

Just tired of being a bitter dumpee. 

I suppose it was reading CeeGee's post re: 11 months that set something off in me. I had a great weekend with the girls. We went walking and climbing in the forest (I live in a really beautiful area of France) and it struck me how we really were a warm, loving family. And it hurts. It hurts deeply, every single f'ing day. I've come from needing intense psychiatric care (never got it, unfortunately) from being abruptly abandoned to a more dulled but still terribly painful existence where my mind is still constantly occupied. I just want this sh1t out of my head. I have my bag of tricks (keep busy, keep busy) but it is still there all the time in the background. 

I think the thing that prompted the anger is the rationalizations and the attitude my wife has about having "her version" of the story as if things were truly 50/50. If she had talked about separation or our marriage being problematic for her, if she had sought marriage counseling before the affair, if she had done anything of the sort then I wouldn't be this angry. It's the lack It's the lack of respect and then the cover up to save her own image. I'm so tired of people being weak in relationships, and cheaters playing the victims. They talk about their resentments and frustrations but many never voiced them. Take your unmet emotional needs and shove them up your arse!!! 

Sorry, just had to get that out. I guess it's because I play fair. I'm a competitor but I believe in a level playing field. It's the treachery of it all. It pains me because I was a very approachable husband. I was not someone who ignored my wife and we talked about many things together. It just annoys me that she can't admit that she was unwilling to talk about certain things to me and wants to say I "pushed her" into the affair. It makes me want to punch her in the face (don't call the cops). I even apologized to her for if I made it so that she was afraid to come to me, or if I created distance between us. She's done nothing close to that. That's why I hope she suffers. And because I read some of her secret chats with POSOM. Love my arse .. it started off with the standard ego-stroking, school crush, spouse-bashing, aren't we so clever and naughty, dirty-talking crapola that is the hallmark of waywards. 

Sigh. I am very bitter, I know.

Part of me really wants her to suffer. At the very least untreatable hemorrhaging anal warts for her and POSOM. Not that it would come close to the psychic pain I've endured, but at least I could laugh in a wicked away knowing that she couldn't sit comfortably in a chair without applying loads of medicated creams.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Pretty rough. I know. A poster on another thread said something simple and profound, "we live in an unjust world", and few things can anger us more than injustice.

Infidelity is so unjust. One person makes the unilateral decision to destroy it all. Nothing we can do but plod along, but as so many people who have been through it attest to, eventually we get to the other side.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi SS - 

I'm sorry you've been feeling crappy, and I'm glad you vented here -- it is good to get that stuff out. It sucks that things went down the way they did, it really does -- but you have resilience and strength to focus on what is in your power to control, and use that anger in a constuctive way to propell you forward. We're all familiar with this kind of emotional pain, but the only way to alleviate the suffering is to let go of the past, the bitterness -- all of it -- and focus on the positives in your life and situating yourself for a happier future.

The disillusionment is hard, and it is difficult to accept that our lives are going to take a different direction than we "assumed." But for myself, the more I try to fight reality and rail against it, the more I create self-inflicted suffering. I have found Gina Lake's books helpful in this regard:

Anatomy of Desire: How to Be Happy Even When You Don't Get What You Want: Gina Lake: 9780615137629: Amazon.com: Books

Feel better, and let us know how things are going!

Best Regards,- A12


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Indeed, SS. I hear you all too well.

The treachery. The sickening dirty talk and stupid sexual inuendoes - my favorite was from OM - "t's getting really HARD not to be with you!" Get it? Wink wink!

But I really do believe in Karma, and that paybacks are a bytch.

I'm liking this side of you better, SS, maybe because it's the world I live in. If one more person tells me to find inner peace and acceptance, blah blah blah I'm going to finally lose my mind.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

A12, I'm not sure I can find the inner peace you speak of. Every time I am with my girls and we socialize with another family, it just tears me up inside. My wife put herself before her family, before her children, and this bothers me deeply. We bare the brunt of it more than she, despite the guilt and shame she may feel. She took a gamble and we were the chips stacked on the table. She was getting a taste of a more liberated life, she had some stars in her eyes, and the everyday pleasantries of strolls in the park and laughing with the kids did not stack up against that. I just find it reprehensible. I find it very unmotherly, very immature. Honestly she can just go to h3ll.

BW, I've got a lot of this side in me. I wrestled with this side for months but it was eating my up inside. Only the betrayed understand this rage.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

staystrong said:


> A12, I'm not sure I can find the inner peace you speak of. Every time I am with my girls and we socialize with another family, it just tears me up inside. My wife put herself before her family, before her children, and this bothers me deeply. We bare the brunt of it more than she, despite the guilt and shame she may feel. She took a gamble and we were the chips stacked on the table. She was getting a taste of a more liberated life, she had some stars in her eyes, and the everyday pleasantries of strolls in the park and laughing with the kids did not stack up against that. I just find it reprehensible. I find it very unmotherly, very immature. Honestly she can just go to h3ll.
> 
> BW, I've got a lot of this side in me. I wrestled with this side for months but it was eating my up inside. Only the betrayed understand this rage.



You have reached what is called the anger stage in the grief recovery process. I believe BW and myself are currently here also.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I think in some ways it will hit her/them more once I go back to the US. I don't like the idea of another man being more present in my kids' life than I will be, but I know he can't replace me. That foursome will never be the foursome we were. I had to laugh when D6 told me POSOM raised his voice with D3 and told her to stop crying and that he had to call STBX to help calm D3 over the phone. Great, the guy can't handle fatherhood. How could anyone expect him to? He had no f'ing clue what it takes, and he missed out on some of the hardest parts. And I don't like the idea of him raising his voice with my kids. That's my job. I know how to temper it.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> You have reached what is called the anger stage in the grief recovery process. I believe BW and myself are currently here also.


We will cycle through the stages again and again. That's the tough part - it's not linear, and it's not as if once you make it through one stage, you've completed it.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Yep, it would appear SS, BW and GP -- all in the anger phase. Hang in there, I know this is horrendous right now. Saying a prayer for you.


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## zappy882000. (May 23, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Nothing new per se, BW.
> 
> Just tired of being a bitter dumpee.
> 
> ...


A lot of good people supporting you here SS.

I feel your emotions and I can picture them.

But believe that Karma is for real and whatever goes around comes around.

She might be happy now but the kind of excruciating pain and tears she had put you through, the guy in the sky will teach her a lesson.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Copy all, SS.

Everything you say is so understandable, given what's happened. In our case, i really believe time away will help. A diferent environment - maybe not for forever, just a change of pace. And it will indeed be interesting to see what happens to the dynamics with wifey and numbnuts OM once you're on the beach in Florida sipping some drink with a parasol. Wait till the first time OM tries to spank or slap one of your kids. 

And I can't speak for GP, but I don't see myself ever getting past this anger. Maybe learn to temper it a little better but get over it? Not in this lifetime.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Dear Luke Skywalker: Anger can be a great motivator for change. I know you don't want to hear it but, as they say: holding on to anger and resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. The problem is, no matter how righteous it feels, staying angry doesn't fix the situation and makes you feel worse. Ommmmmmmm :circle:

XOXOXOX


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

A12, some of us are beyond self-help. 

I classify this pain of infidelity and abandonment and divorce as a 'kaleidoscope of pain'. The patterns churn over and over, often reappearing in a dizzying display. 

PS - And DeMello can blow me. I would've liked to see that dude's reaction when he found out his lady was sexting some other man on where and how they were going to bonk that night. DeMello's fro would've shot up into the sky, his eyes would've turned blood red and the only thing he would've detached is POSOM's head from the rest of his body. 

And no, it's not all about the sexual betrayal. We all know that is not the part that hurts the most, but it does sting really badly.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



staystrong said:


> I classify this pain of infidelity and abandonment and divorce as a 'kaleidoscope of pain'. The patterns churn over and over, often reappearing in a dizzying display.


This "anger" is nothing but your primary excuse to not move on from this. It's been that way for quite a while. To say you have no control over this anger completely contradicts your claim to being an approachable husband all the time.

Far too many what ifs in regards to the actions your ex should or shouldn't have taken. I will never discredit the pain it has caused but eventually you will have to find a way to move on from this.

You think I ever found all the answers to the questions I originally had when this happened? Hell no and I had to stop caring, it was eating me alive.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> This "anger" is nothing but your primary excuse to not move on from this. It's been that way for quite a while. To say you have no control over this anger completely contradicts your claim to being an approachable husband all the time.
> 
> Far too many what ifs in regards to the actions your ex should or shouldn't have taken. I will never discredit the pain it has caused but eventually you will have to find a way to move on from this.
> 
> You think I ever found all the answers to the questions I originally had when this happened? Hell no and I had to stop caring, it was eating me alive.


I don't need to justify my anger. 

My anger is my anger. 

I think you've just caught me on an upturn in the MarketWatch of my anger score. 

I could fly from LA and NY and back again in the same amount of time it takes me to get from the USA to France to see my children. My wife did not think about this outcome because she was too caught up thinking about herself. I have an impending move and that causes me stress. So I could try 'not caring' about being separated from my kids but that's a little hard for me to do.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

I'm talking about all the what ifs you keep torturing yourself with, while you were married


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I have the What Ifs cataloged in my head but rarely revisit them. Six months ago I was still fully engaged in that mode, and it has tapered off dramatically since then. I've done what's needed to be done there, too much so as you recall. 

I think the genie thought experiment I alluded to was just to demonstrate that I would still prefer a continuance of my past life over oodles of cash and new beginnings. I wouldn't have traded that life for the world.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I have the What Ifs cataloged in my head but rarely revisit them. Six months ago I was still fully engaged in that mode, and it has tapered off dramatically since then. I've done what's needed to be done there, too much so as you recall.
> 
> I think the genie thought experiment I alluded to was just to demonstrate that *I would still prefer a continuance of my past life over oodles of cash and new beginnings. I wouldn't have traded that life for the world.*


I too wish I didn't have to juggle my children around every 2 weeks and have a split household for my kids that will eventually lead to the introduction of 2 new adults into there little lives.

On the flip side, if it wasn't for what happened, I would not be who I am today. 100 Daddio's of 2012 have nothing on the 1 Daddio of 2013.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS. 

I have to tell you, this is probably my favorite exchange I have ever read on TAM, bar none. 

Am I dreaming or did you actually say, DeMello, the Patron Saint of TAM, could blow you? Did you actually say that he might have had a problem with his wife sexting another man, even while he was in a Rectory with the other Jesuits?

Damn, LOL, that's what's missing in this forum, unadulterated rage.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> SS.
> 
> I have to tell you, this is probably my favorite exchange I have ever read on TAM, bar none.
> 
> ...


There is plenty of unadulterated rage on this forum. I'm not minimizing, condeming or judging anyone for having those feelings, just asking -- is that how you really want to live, and let that rage confine and define you? Have at it for as long as it takes, but do you honestly think it is going to be helpful for you to stay mired in thsoe negative feelings? If thats what makes you feel good, then I'm not judging or arguing -- just observing it does not serve your well being, but you have to figure this out in your own way and your own time. Take your time, and stay with the anger as long as you need to -- but ask your self if it is really heliping you feel better. That is all  

Cheers, - A12


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

A12

I understand what you're saying. And no, I'm not suggesting that I (or anyone else) stayed mired in our rage for an eternity. 

My humble observation is that I see just the opposite on this forum, people so mired in self-introspection and self-hate that they tamp down the very real anger that's right there under the surface. In the case of StayStrong, we have observed his slow and agonizing metamorphosis from an absolutely defeated poor soul seemingly on his way to the gallows, to a man finally recognizing his rage, and attempting to deal with it. He knows damned well what he did wrong, what he needs to try and fix for the future. Enough of that! 

What was missing and what will help him get better faster than everything else combined is to vent that rage and frustration and then try and heal.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> What was missing and what will help him get better faster than everything else combined is to vent that rage and frustration and then try and heal.


I believe he did that, about 6 or so months ago. He went over and vented it on the OM. Many cheered and rallied behind him, a few told him he'd probably feel differently after a few days. 

Anger and rage is good for a vent, yes. Being aware of it and having it stay within yourself is the key. Leaving scorched Earth behind you while leaving the anger unchecked just causes more problems down the road.

The reason why I pinpointed the anger out of everything he said (and I do not take away from his progress, as it has and still is a great feat he should be proud of), is because it's a repeat occurrence.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> A12
> 
> I understand what you're saying. And no, I'm not suggesting that I (or anyone else) stayed mired in our rage for an eternity.
> 
> ...


Hi BW -

OK, point taken -- makes sense.

Best, A12


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

staystrong said:


> A12, I'm not sure I can find the inner peace you speak of. Every time I am with my girls and we socialize with another family, it just tears me up inside. My wife put herself before her family, before her children, and this bothers me deeply. We bare the brunt of it more than she, despite the guilt and shame she may feel. She took a gamble and we were the chips stacked on the table. She was getting a taste of a more liberated life, she had some stars in her eyes, and the everyday pleasantries of strolls in the park and laughing with the kids did not stack up against that. I just find it reprehensible. I find it very unmotherly, very immature. Honestly she can just go to h3ll.
> 
> BW, I've got a lot of this side in me. I wrestled with this side for months but it was eating my up inside. Only the betrayed understand this rage.


SS: you will heal, I know you think and feel like it will never end. It will get better; I can’t believe Im actually saying that! You’re a lot younger than I am and you have so much "better than this" ahead of you! When I went through my last separation I was beside myself. I all most put myself in the hospital. I have now known about this affair for 11 months. Been separated for 8. My divorce should be final in a week or so and I can actually say I’m good, not even just ok. What a change from just 2 months ago... sometime it all of a sudden happens that you can laugh and be happy and find humor in little things. It’s not another man, its not my family or my friends... its me...something just clicked, I still have my moments don’t get me wrong. and it still sucks that people treat each other the way most of us have been treated but it happens.. we have to accept it and move on. I was just talking to a neighbor who apparently had a conversation with mstbxh while he was out working on the yard recently. and she said "so you two aren’t going to make it ha?" I said "no, divorce is almost complete" and she said "well its a shame you have been married how many years"? I said " June 11th" I married him when I was 17 can you believe that?" She said "its so sad, but if you havnt been HAPPY for a while I guess you have to make those hard choices." I said " well, I dont think it was like that, if he was unhappy he never let me in on it, as a matter of fact he bragged to everyone about our marriage and he just tried kissing me again last Sunday. - It was a case of wanting his cake and eating it too." He can tell people whatever he wants but I know what went on in the house. 

After I left her, I stewed on it for a while.. How dare he... then I thought ... what difference does it make what people think or even what he's telling them? maybe he was un-happy and just couldn’t voice it to me.. I know it was more than that because of his other issues, but wonder if deep down he was unhappy but just could never take the step totally away from me.. do you know what I came up with.....? well it’s a good thing I finally did it then. let him be free... let him find out whether happiness comes with someone else or not....But also let me be free and see if I can be happy, even perhaps happier than I have ever been before.. That is what I wish for you.. for you to be able to say screw it..... Im going to be happy.....


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

I got a little carried away last night (again), sorry. There's something about your story that I have somehow taken personally, the injustice and the shocking betrayal. 

Keep posting, man, it's good for both of us, therapeutic.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

doureallycare2, That's great news. I'm really happy for you and the progress you have made. Every couple is different, every situation different, though we all share some common threads. I definitely get your point

My current unhappiness mostly has to do with the upcoming physical separation from my children. I know there's not really a point to stressing about something that has not happened yet, but it does weigh on my mind.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

BW, just trying to employ NC as best as I can. I find it helps a lot. As I mentioned previously, I just want to X her out of my life as much as possible. She called to speak to the girls, her usual chipper self, and when she asks me how I am I just redirect to something else about the girls. I'm erecting the great wall of China between us. I do not want to be friends with her in this lifetime, nor friendly, just brief and cordial (but not overly cold) as is recommended. If I can get away with not seeing her in person until the divorce court appearance, I'll consider that a success. 

Yes, it was a monster of a betrayal, just like so many other stories on this board. But as Daddio pointed out, my X has a history of affairs, and it was something I should've taken more into account. The signs were there during the marriage, she has a lack of boundaries. In some ways she is a Giver, she wants to help people with their problems, she doesn't seem to have seen the inherent problem of listening to other men tell her of their relationship issues and get a "woman's opinion". Ironically, she sees herself as some sort of relationship advisor, which clearly she is unqualified for considering her two divorces from adultery and a couple of other flings (one with an involved man).


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

doureallycare2 said:


> deep down he was unhappy but just could never take the step totally away from me.. do you know what I came up with.....? well it’s a good thing I finally did it then. let him be free... let him find out whether happiness comes with someone else or not....But also let me be free and see if I can be happy, even perhaps happier than I have ever been before.. That is what I wish for you.. for you to be able to say screw it..... Im going to be happy.....


:iagree: You will be happy again -- give it time and patience, and focus on taking care of you.

DYRC2 - He was unhappy with HIMSELF. Nothing to do with you or anything you could have done differently, capeesh? 

Cheers, - A12


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> My current unhappiness mostly has to do with the upcoming physical separation from my children. I know there's not really a point to stressing about something that has not happened yet, but it does weigh on my mind.


VERY understandable! Don't beat yourself up, you will find ways to stay connected with them and be an integral part of their lives. You're clearly a great Dad. I know you'll help the kids through this change so they know you are not "leaving" them, you will always love them very much, and be there for them.

Hang in there, and know you'll find your way forward. Keep trudging.

Best Wishes, - A12


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> A12
> 
> I understand what you're saying. And no, I'm not suggesting that I (or anyone else) stayed mired in our rage for an eternity.
> 
> ...


Anger is good and natural. It is how you channel it that matters.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> BW, just trying to employ NC as best as I can. I find it helps a lot. As I mentioned previously, I just want to X her out of my life as much as possible. She called to speak to the girls, her usual chipper self, and when she asks me how I am I just redirect to something else about the girls. I'm erecting the great wall of China between us. I do not want to be friends with her in this lifetime, nor friendly, just brief and cordial (but not overly cold) as is recommended. If I can get away with not seeing her in person until the divorce court appearance, I'll consider that a success.
> 
> Yes, it was a monster of a betrayal, just like so many other stories on this board. But as Daddio pointed out, my X has a history of affairs, and it was something I should've taken more into account. The signs were there during the marriage, she has a lack of boundaries. In some ways she is a Giver, she wants to help people with their problems, she doesn't seem to have seen the inherent problem of listening to other men tell her of their relationship issues and get a "woman's opinion". Ironically, she sees herself as some sort of relationship advisor, which clearly she is unqualified for considering her two divorces from adultery and a couple of other flings (one with an involved man).


So, you weren't the only one with delusions about her.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Hey, SS, how much longer till you leave France?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I'm on a month's vacation there from the end of June to end of July. Then divorce court date here sometime in September, after which I return to USA.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I see. Well, it is what it is, eh? 

In a way I'm jealous that you get to move.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

Where are you, man, ain't heard a peep out of you for a couple of days. 

I'm hoping you're not hiding in the French countryside after having strangled the Music Teacher with his own piano wire.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Signed the divorce agreement yesterday and the court date will be in the Fall.

X was more emotional than I was after the meeting. She chased me down and cried and said she was sorry, she failed, etc. 

She hugged me for a long time so I let her. I am so emotionally numb these days that I shed only a little tear. With our bodies close and tight like that, it all came rushing back. Who she was, who I was (don't remember that guy very well), who we were and how we "fit" so well together. 

I know she feels nothing for me. She gave me the "I hope you'll be happy" and the "I love you" deal but then corrected herself "... like a bro". Like a bro? LIKE A BRO? I told her don't say that. Jesus, why not punch me in the gut and cut off my balls at the same time? Oh, I guess she's already done that. 

She looked beautiful. I mean, she is beautiful. I can't believe we weren't making love every day. Where the hell were my priorities? Guess I got caught up in the work-from-home routine and let the love life slip. I can get a little serious when I am focused. Perhaps I just took it for granted that she'd always be there. 

Feeling REALLY down. REALLY REALLY down. Those deep dark thoughts again. I know she was the best thing to every happen to me even if she has the cheating streak. I hate the feeling of losing, perhaps being too beta, of not recognising my own flaws better, being traded in for another model, of her not sharing how she really felt and of not knowing the sides she chose to share with him. It makes the marriage feel incomplete, tainted and it makes me question exactly who is the person that I still must speak with regarding the kids. How much of herself was she hiding from me? How much was I rejecting those parts of her by my own behaviours? 

She just doesn't see the past and our marriage the same was as I do anymore. I suppose that's natural but it hurts. She seems to concentrate on the negatives and downplay the positives. She's brought up little things that hurt her over the years - it's amazing this catalog in her head. She has been carrying around these resentments I was clearly not aware of. She makes it sound as if our personalities just wouldn't work together when they seemed to be doing fine up until OM entered the scene. I do admit I could have lightened up about a few things, and I realise now that I wasn't handling my stress now. I'd really like to know what her new man brings into her life and if she is indeed "happier". They seem to have the makings of a good couple (strange to say), but then again they've only been living together for 8 months versus the 7 years we were together. 

It sucks when one person's life must be sacrificed for another two people to be together. And YOU are that person. Love apparently is like any other game - there are winners and there are losers. So much for lofty ideals.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Wow, SS - 

So sorry you're hurting. That was a momentous day for you, and I can relate to your feelings of numbness and the sense of a ruptured life, having very recently gone through it myself.

You are NOT a loser, and never will be. You are still putting way to much blame on yourself for HER betrayal, which was not your fault! Yes, it does suck when things don't work out as we hoped and dreamed, but we still have lives to live, adventures to be had, and stories that remain untold. 

This is really hard stuff -- so emotionally draining, it can feel like it will suck the life out fo you. Don't let it! Hang in there, and keep us posted. As I recall you were going to scout out relocation options back in the U.S. in the near future, then go back to France for the court date in the fall? Do you even need to go back and be present for that? You'll have your kids with you for at least part of the summer I hope and be able to Skype with them as well?

All Best Wishes, - A12


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

My heart goes out to you SS. I just read Viktor Frankls' book Meaning of Life. I highly recommend it, for me it was life changing. I as always wish you the best.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

So sorry, it sounds just awful. 

You are such an articulate person, so much of what you wrote rang true for the rest of us. 

Keep us posted, please. Really miss your posts. 

BW


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Thanks all.

A12 - I don't think I am a loser, just that I lost in this competition (one I didn't even know I was in). Her character flaw aside, she is a prize. It would be silly to say she isn't. I am unfortunately still in love with her and I think always will be. 

MC - I read the book in high school and remember enjoying it very much. Certainly it put things in perspective through its extreme example. 

BW - Thanks bud. I am still checking in on some threads and may resurface again when the time is right. 

Looking back, I just needed to relax in some ways. I did get on my wife's case about some things, and I had some quirks which weren't that desirable, and I guess that can make someone difficult to live with at times. I suppose I felt a loss of control, and keeping things "in order" was my way of maintaining control. I no longer harbor such a need.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

SS.....I got on TAM this morning and said I don’t have time to write, just want to check in and your post was the first one that came up... How can I not respond... We have all been there and we know the heart break... The lost dreams, the what ifs. I have to reassure you though.. REMEMBER I’ve been there with the what ifs and I gave chance after chance after chance. I said all the same things.. Maybe if I had not taken this for granted or if I did this...... It didn’t work.. It’s not because of the chemistry between the two of your or your personality make-up and being too serious. It’s because she is a liar, a cheater and places no value on the vows you made or honesty and integrity in your relationship. so here is my response:





staystrong said:


> Signed the divorce agreement yesterday and the court date will be in the Fall.
> 
> X was more emotional than I was after the meeting. She chased me down and cried and said she was sorry, she failed, etc.
> 
> ...


 She is the loser, she has lost more than will ever be willing to accept, you will go on with your dignity and yes it hurts but you will survive and be the stronger person because you’re working on your issues.
Stay strong!!!


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Hi DYRC,

I really appreciate your message. 

I agree - part of it is she cares about me, but also that she wants to show she is a compassionate person. I think she IS generally a compassionate person but in her own mind she had to make a choice which was going to be painful and she did not know how to do it well. She was conflicted and in the fog and she chose what she chose for her own reasons. She's gone through the emotional process of having to leave someone and the guilt that entails. I think she's come out the other side and accepted it for what it is. 

I don't think she sees it as a mistake. I think she views it is as a failure on her part (her words) but something that can not be reversed and not something she fully regrets because she is happy now. She says her frustrations with OM are not of the same order as the ones she had with me. She's rewriting history a bit but it's true that sparks did fly from time to time. I'll admit, I was a prick about some things because I had certain expectations and, well, poor communication skills I guess. I did give her a hard time about some things. Not cool. I learned after this that it is better to happy than try to be right. It's a hard lesson to learn. 

She's not the loser, objectively and emotionally. She's the leaver, not the left. What she did was awful, and it should be condemned, but I think personal happiness for her is not one that needs to be based on following a set or moral principles. She's more inclined to see things in shades of gray. She is comfortable with her life, her life improved in many respects, and she feels safe and in love with the person she is with. I represent the past, and we are linked by the children, but no longer by heart and mind. I think the only thing missing from her present life is that her partner is not the father of her children, and that obviously sets a different tone in the house. But I think she likes being the matriarch, not having parental competition and so on.

It will actually be her third "marriage". She has been married twice and I don't think she will marry her OM. Not according to her, at least. She didn't want to get legally married to me because she'd already been through a divorce. We did it because it made sense for immigration purposes. Once she was married to me, she was happy about it and we both felt proud to be married. 

The simple fact of the matter is that she does not love me anymore. No residual anything. She made the cut and her heart belongs to someone else. It's an incredibly painful thing for me accept, and I am now one of those poor schmucks who will pine for his ex-wife and always compare future GFs to her. 

It just sucks when you know what you could have done, but it's too late. Thanks for sharing your story, though. It sounds like when you took him back you weren't equals in the relationship. I just want to return to the relationship as equals, and in top form. Our children would flip out with joy if that were ever to happen. I'm sure my wife questioned herself and thought it what if she went back and was unfaithful again? She probably did not want to put the kids through that.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

But let's face it. The story is essentially the same as most other guys on this site. We became too beta, our wives (most of whom are attractive) got tempted by forbidden fruit and acted out on it. The had a thrill, acted out their fantasies, did they things they didn't do with their hubbies, and in some cases fell in love. Yes, it's their fault for cheating, but our fault for not keeping them sexually or emotionally satisfied. I'll admit, things had gotten fairly tame in the bedroom for us. We weren't exploring, we weren't opening up, getting frisky. She met someone who was all over her, and fell to temptation. I guess he was good in bed. End of story. Affair partners - 2 , BS/Chump 0. And that's what we have to live with for the rest of our lives. The ultimate ridicule.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> But let's face it. The story is essentially the same as most other guys on this site. We became too beta, our wives (most of whom are attractive) got tempted by forbidden fruit and acted out on it. The had a thrill, acted out their fantasies, did they things they didn't do with their hubbies, and in some cases fell in love. Yes, it's their fault for cheating, but our fault for not keeping them sexually or emotionally satisfied. I'll admit, things had gotten fairly tame in the bedroom for us. We weren't exploring, we weren't opening up, getting frisky. She met someone who was all over her, and fell to temptation. I guess he was good in bed. End of story. Affair partners - 2 , BS/Chump 0. And that's what we have to live with for the rest of our lives. The ultimate ridicule.


My Dear SS - 

It is healthy that you can own your faults, but still think you put way to much blame on yourself for what is HER failure -- failure to communicate her concerns, failure to make an effort to work things out with you before going outside the marriage. 

You have learned a great deal about yourself, and I know you will take that growth with you into a future realationship. I do completely understand and share that heartbreaking feeling that the love my XH and I once shared was a once-in-a-lifetime thing -- that I'll never be able to love another the way I did him, and would always be comparing. Our divorce was only recently finalized, and though we've lived apart for a year already, I still well up with sadness at times, missing him and his companionship, tormented that we are no longer going to be in each others' lives when we were once so solidly bonded.

This latter point will be a big focus of the work I need to do on myself to recover from the D and more fully transition to a new chapter. I'll be interested in following your journey and progress with this issue as well. Be well and take care.

Kind Regards, - A12


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

A12 was much kinder in her reply then what I thought after I read your response. I wanted to say bull crap... but that wasn’t very sympathetic or constructive.  JK

It’s just that we have heard this recurring
theme from you for a long time now SS, that it was your fault (in bed or out of it). You know your relationship better than we do and although we try and take a look at it from that 5000 feet angle and maybe help you see a different view of it, it’s just not working for you.

I decided maybe you are one of the 5 % of spouses that it was all your fault and you deserved to have her turn away (I mean if you can’t satisfy a woman then oh well). Why then though couldn’t she be honest and say I’m not happy and I’m leaving? Why lie?, why cheat? Did you deserve that also? Was lying a part of your everyday marriage?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I read a lot of testimonies from women who cheat and leave their husbands, so I gather that my wife's story is similar to theirs. Our circumstances were perhaps different than most people's, considering our international relationship and the stressors surrounding that, but I assume that she fell for someone the same way most people fall for someone. An initial defensive posture since she was married, but a gradual recognition of attraction, then a slide into an affair. 

It's not that I don't think I'm good in bed. I'm not worried about that. And I certainly had satisfied my wife enough for her to chase me in the beginning and bear me two children. I think it was more a matter of things getting routine and less frequent. Marriages ebb and flow and so does the sex life. There was new stress (a move, a renovation, kids entering school, my business) and that can take a tool on the drive. I guess my point is that it's hard to compare with the illicit affair sex once that takes hold. 

"Why then though couldn’t she be honest and say I’m not happy and I’m leaving?"

Because quite simply that's not how the world operates. I sense that a marriage in which an affair occurs is a marriage in which there are communication problems. People are often too afraid to speak their mind about the little things that bother them, much less the big things. Conflict avoidance, basically.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I sense that a marriage in which an affair occurs is a marriage in which there are communication problems. People are often too afraid to speak their mind about the little things that bother them, much less the big things. Conflict avoidance, basically.


Bingo! I agree. :iagree:


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Good to hear from you SS.

She's broken....All marriages become routine.

Your a stand up guy and some women in the future is going to thank God that your ex did what she did.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Awakening2012 said:


> My Dear SS -
> 
> It is healthy that you can own your faults, but still think you put way to much blame on yourself for what is HER failure -- failure to communicate her concerns, failure to make an effort to work things out with you before going outside the marriage.
> 
> ...



And I will continue to follow yours, A12. I know you are feeling your loss deeply. 

Love is a treacherous thing but it is also the most splendid thing. Besides a couple of two year relationships, I avoided getting involved too seriously with someone for a long time. I hadn't met anyone whom I knew I wanted to be with all the time, and was really completely comfortable with, a few differences notwithstanding. My wife was certainly that person. 

It sounds like you had that too and once you have felt it, you want that feeling back. It is amazing to me that my wife and I could have bonded as strongly as we did but then how things can go downhill. But the relationship books spell it out fairly well and there's an art to maintaining a relationship. Of course, so much of it also has to do with how well we are maintaing ourselves. I know you have expressed your own soul-searching in that regard.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> Good to hear from you SS.
> 
> She's broken....All marriages become routine.
> 
> Your a stand up guy and some women in the future is going to thank God that your ex did what she did.


Thanks buddy.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

staystrong said:


> And I will continue to follow yours, A12. I know you are feeling your loss deeply.


Thanks, SS - Waterworks now commencing. Egad, I get choked up so easily still when I think of him 

Hang in there!


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Awakening2012 said:


> Thanks, SS - Waterworks now commencing. Egad, I get choked up so easily still when I think of him
> 
> Hang in there!


Its so hard isn’t it.... I had my IC last night and she said to me do you realize how far you have come? I said some days I feel like I’m right back at the beginning and she said you used to not even be able to mention his name without tearing up..... That made me tear up... 

You both are going to do great, you have such heart. Everyone can hear the amount of reflection and effort you’re putting in at becoming a complete person. That piece of your soul that was torn a way will heal....


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Had a great night last night. In France there is a national day where all the cities set up bands and parties. Had D3 dancing in my arms last night on the street. Her eyes were so big and she was loving the show. She fell in love with me last night or something. I could just tell .. 

Although the pain of betrayal and loss is still deep in me, I've decided to partially forgive my wife and let go of persecuting her in my head or directly to her. The main reason is that I let her down as a husband, and in some very important ways. I just didn't realize it at the time or maybe I had my head up my ass. She shouldn't have to settle for mediocrity and for a man who wasn't doing his best and neglecting certain aspects of his life. I forgive her for her resentments towards me, falling in love with someone else, but I can not yet forgive her for the way she handled the fallout between us. And I don't think I am close to forgiving her for breaking up the family and putting this on our kids. 

Anyhow, some progress. And all without the aid of counselling!


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Had a great night last night. In France there is a national day where all the cities set up bands and parties. Had D3 dancing in my arms last night on the street. Her eyes were so big and she was loving the show. She fell in love with me last night or something. I could just tell ..
> 
> Although the pain of betrayal and loss is still deep in me, I've decided to partially forgive my wife and let go of persecuting her in my head or directly to her. The main reason is that I let her down as a husband, and in some very important ways. I just didn't realize it at the time or maybe I had my head up my ass. She shouldn't have to settle for mediocrity and for a man who wasn't doing his best and neglecting certain aspects of his life. I forgive her for her resentments towards me, falling in love with someone else, but I can not yet forgive her for the way she handled the fallout between us. And I don't think I am close to forgiving her for breaking up the family and putting this on our kids.
> 
> Anyhow, some progress. And all without the aid of counselling!


One day... You will hopefully realize... this had nothing to do with you. NOTHING.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

It's extraordinarily difficult to have a successful long-term relationship that starts out with cheating.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Damn, SS, you are such a forgiving soul. God love you, man. 

You made mistakes. She made bigger ones.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Fellahs, I'm just trying to have a 360 degree view on this. 360 degrees and 50,000 feet. 

Conrad, as usual, you are right. We all know examples where it does work out, but I tend to think they are in the minority. 

RG, I see now that the only unconditional love in this world is the love we have for our kids. The rest is conditional and subject to interpretation. People get into trouble when they assume their spouse's love is guaranteed. 

BW, forgiveness has its place. One day you may even forgive Frostine. I try to keep in mind that my mistakes led to my wife's mistakes.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

SS,

Getting started that way stacks the deck against you for the following reasons:

1) Difficult to trust someone you know will cheat

2) Cheaters (as a rule) tend to be runners. (See rule #1)

3) Socially, cheaters smash the support networks they've developed with friends and family. (That's why exposure works)

4) The pressure associated with "making it work" INCREASES as the relationship starts to hit the normal rough spots. This invokes codependent behavior on the achievement oriented. I mean, who wants to go through the hassle of burning everything to the ground, just to fail in the end?

5) I hear the 5 year survival rate of 2nd marriages between cheaters is about 5-7%. Think about that number.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Conrad said:


> SS,
> 
> 
> 5) I hear the 5 year survival rate of 2nd marriages between cheaters is about 5-7%. Think about that number.


I wonder what it is for 3rd marriages?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Good analysis, Conrad.

I never know what to believe about the statistics. It seems like a really hard thing to track. 

(JD, I'm guessing it's pretty darn low.)


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jdlash said:


> I wonder what it is for 3rd marriages?


It didn't take me too long after getting married the second time to realize I was missing something.

I can't imagine merely blaming her, divorcing, and then trying it again.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Frank Pittman cites 25% as the figure:
Can Relationships That Start as Affairs Succeed...Revisited | About Affairs

That sounds more realistic. We tend to think that 'affairages' won't work out in the end, but that's more wishful thinking on the part of the betrayed, isn't it?

I think we also should keep in mind that the affair couple may stay together but not get married. I doubt the status of those relationships has been tracked.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Here's the key comment:

_*Anonymous *_Says: 
I’m not even sure that these statistics can be very sturdy.
I mean, come on, not many people would actually admit that their new relationship started as an affair.

_*I have been having an affair for 6 months, if we were ever to leave our spouses I’m pretty sure that neither of us would admit to colleagues, family, friends that we’d been having an affair.*_
Instead I’d give it a little while and then start the new relationship publicaly without admiting that it had, in fact, been going on for a while.

Surely that’s what most people would do?

May 13th, 2011 at 4:56 pm - See more at: Can Relationships That Start as Affairs Succeed...Revisited | About Affairs

Which is why exposure is SUCH an effective tool.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I don't know how people can away with it. It seems that most affairs are exposed to at least the inner circle of family and friends at one point or another. They just might not have been exposed at the critical time. 

And if your spouse divorces you and you find out he/she is seeing someone seriously a week later, you'd have to suspect that it was going on before the divorce was final.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> I don't know how people can away with it. It seems that most affairs are exposed to at least the inner circle of family and friends at one point or another. They just might not have been exposed at the critical time.
> 
> And if your spouse divorces you and you find out he/she is seeing someone seriously a week later, you'd have to suspect that it was going on before the divorce was final.


Much less have him move in.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Cheater= person with no integrity
AP= person with no integrity

Let them cannibalize each other. Who cares. Move on with your own life.

The cheating had nothing to do with you, SS. There are some situations you simply cannot win. 

5 years from now you will wonder why you dwelled on this crap for so long.

I imagine that every guy who got out of a relationship with a high conflict, cheating, disordered wife is ultimately glad he escaped that life.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I wish it were the case. I'm telling you guys that I am to blame and no one wants to believe me. Believe it, buddy! I let myself go, I had become generally scruffy, out of shape and unattractive. I mean, not gross, but not up to basic standards. Keep in mind I was working from home so I thought I could get away with not having to look good. And I was not earning money from my business, another attraction killer and resentment builder. 

Affairs happen for a reason, and it's not always about a lack of personal integrity. Life is complicated; opportunities arise and sometimes at a point when the marriage is vulnerable. I think people do tend to slide into affairs and it becomes a sh!tstorm of epic proportions where everyone suffers. I'm not saying let cheaters off the hook - it's a terribly cruel thing to do to another person - but I don't want to brand an A on their heads either. I did when I found out, of course. Maybe TAMmers are a high-integrity group, and there are lines they just don't cross. I respect that. I don't think I could have ever cheated on my wife, but never say never. For me, cheating on my wife would have also equated to cheating on my young children, and I could never betray their trust even if I was tempted to betray my wife's. And for the record my wife was not high conflict or disordered. Flawed, yes, but not an abusive person. 

Conrad, her moving him in was truly a horrible thing to do and she has at least apologized for it. I think she knows how wrong it was and is embarrassed by it. 

You're probably thinking I've gone soft.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

>>it's not always about a lack of personal integrity.<<

But it sure doesn't hurt


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

No, it sure doesn't hurt.

But I have to question my own integrity, if integrity also means strength in the face of a crisis. I certainly made mistakes. I was weak. I still carry the guilt of many things. As I've mentioned before, after my wife wrote her NC letter (which I neglected to read) she asked to meet up with OM three days later so she could do it properly in person. I deliberated and finally agreed, because I feared that otherwise she would do it behind my back. Where were my senses? I did not have the presence of mind to say "No, that's not the way it works. If you see him, it just restarts your feelings for him and you are vulnerable right now. IF you want to see him in person, I need to be there." Maybe I was still in shock, but I lacked the self-integrity to man up on that occasion. So for every action there's a reaction. And for every inaction, there's also a reaction. 

These are the kinds of flashbacks that haunt BS's until the end of our days. The only benefit is that I will never repeat my mistakes.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

Bottom line SS, you are not to blame. You didn't force her to have an affair.

Your mistakes were mistakes and may have led to bad times. Her reaction to those bad times should be on her though.

Know where to draw the line in what you take "blame" for.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I'm fine with my stance on it, NM. Really I am. Blame equates to assigning fault, and we each have our own idea of what fault is in a marriage. I was not being the husband she deserved, and in the end, she was not the wife I deserved. I failed her in some important ways but she in turn failed me in the most important of ways. We're both aware of this. 

And at least I am moving past the anger. I have no need to hate her anymore. It's a waste of energy, and I don't truly hate her. I refuse to be a bitter Ex. I'm in the best spot I've been in for a while. 

As Daddio says, eventually you get sick and tired of being sick and tired. And then things start picking up.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

You are a brave soul, SS. And you sound better. I don't know how you move past the anger.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

I'll chime in here. I hate my ex. Because she left me and my daughter in the most cowardly way. There are no reasons or excuses. She vowed, and she broke the vow. 

If she had left when she fell out of love with me (years ago apparently) and divorced me before dating, it would be much easier to swallow. Instead she humiliated me with a person who I knew, who she worked with in a store I frequented. Everyone there knew what was going on, but eventually I was let in on it.

So, there's the POSOM, who is lower than a worm, but the real POS is my ex-wife. A coward. A horrible mother. I wish her all the worst in her future. 

Finally embracing my hatred of her has helped me to finally detach completely. I was stuck, there was still a little bit of affection for her, a thread of hope that just maybe... Then it hit me one day, all the anger surfaced, all that she did and continues to do. 

I know this phase will pass and she will become a nobody to me, no love no hate just nothing. But for now, I like where I am, it's part of the healing process.


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## lucy mulholland (May 18, 2010)

maincourse99 said:


> I'll chime in here. I hate my ex. Because she left me and my daughter in the most cowardly way. There are no reasons or excuses. She vowed, and she broke the vow.
> 
> If she had left when she fell out of love with me (years ago apparently) and divorced me before dating, it would be much easier to swallow. Instead she humiliated me with a person who I knew, who she worked with in a store I frequented. Everyone there knew what was going on, but eventually I was let in on it.
> 
> ...


AMEN! I feel about the same as this now, and yes, the hatred has a role in helping us move on. We will be better off, just wait for it.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Yes, the hatred does have a role. Definitely there are times throughout the day where I feel hate about certain parts of what has happened. I would say that most of my anger is directed towards myself, because I was unable to discipline myself after the affair and during the separation. I didn't make my boundaries clear and I got myself into situations that caused more conflict than necessary. The problem is that we are not thinking rationally during those times, and some of us have special circumstances which add to the feeling of desperation. 

It will pass, don't worry.

I'm waiting for the longing of the past to pass.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_I got myself into situations that caused more conflict than necessary. The problem is that we are not thinking rationally during those times, and some of us have special circumstances which add to the feeling of desperation. 

It will pass, don't worry.

I'm waiting for the longing of the past to pass_

I think that the pressure we were under during those dark times was immense. I can't believe some of the things I said and the way I acted at times. My emotions were fluctuating wildly. 

Your wife has apologized for hurting you, as has mine, but they really have no idea. I can't get Vicktor Frankl's book out of my mind. It impressed on me that our lives can be turned upside down and wrenched away from us in the most unjust manner. One thing he said was that the last freedom we have is to choose how we act in any given set of circumstances, or something to that effect. 

He was a living skeleton clothes in rags, who had lost his entire family, yet he survived, learned from it, and led a full life of helping people. 

It seems to me that you're doing so much better, SS. You've sifted through everything and are getting to where you need to be.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I'm trying, MC. 

In some ways, I think experiencing the deep betrayal and abandonment by a loved one must be worse than experiencing the death of a loved one. With betrayal, you have both the knives stuck in you plus the void and the longing. And the cherished image has been destroyed. 

When I found out about my wife's affair, I didn't know enough about A's to think of them as starting as fantasy relationships, the lure of something new and exciting. I accepted that she had fallen in love with him as a person, not necessarily as a source of lust and ego-stroking and all that. I never really got to confront her on that aspect of it. I definitely hate that part of it, and I'm probably better off not knowing all the details. Even though I'm trying to tamp down the hate but I still wouldn't mind if she gets betrayed in the future to know what it feels like.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

One of the things that is the hardest to deal with is that in our very brief R we never had a good talk about what she wanted me to change, or what I wanted her to change (besides ending the A, of course). No specifics. Whether it be practical, emotional, sexual. It drives me crazy not knowing. 

Have you all had those conversations? How much did you gain from them?


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_In some ways, I think experiencing the deep betrayal and abandonment by a loved one must be worse than experiencing the death of a loved one. With betrayal, you have both the knives stuck in you plus the void and the longing. And the cherished image has been destroyed. 

Even though I'm trying to tamp down the hate but I still wouldn't mind if she gets betrayed in the future to know what it feels like_

I agree with your view on betrayal & abandonment. It comes at you from all those angles. We've been going through the stages of grief, and then some.

I wish the same for my ex, but IMO people like those we were married to might not be able to connect on a deep enough level emotionally to ever feel the pain the way we did if they get cheated on. I think they would maybe feel sad for a short time, but move on rather seamlessly.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I doubt that MC. There are people on TAM who have been WSs and BSs. They seemed to be keenly aware of the pain of both.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_Have you all had those conversations? How much did you gain from them_

No, we never had those conversations since we never attempted to reconcile. All I have is the ILYBDLY speech. As I've mentioned in other posts, she has wavered, brought up "coming home" in vague terms, but I haven't and won't take the bait on that. As long as she was with POSOM, there was no way I could discuss R. 

So, I've just decided to return to ILYBDLY. Simple. She loves him and not me. I figure all the other stuff she's said was a result of her process of breaking away from me, our family, and the home she loved.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_I doubt that MC. There are people on TAM who have been WSs and BSs. They seemed to be keenly aware of the pain of both_

Point taken, and I agree there are those type of people capable of feeling that pain. Maybe your ex is one of them. 

But I believe many, like my ex, are damaged emotionally and/or missing something so that they just don't develop the deep bonds with people (including their children) that the rest of us do.

Just my opinion, doesn't really matter much I guess.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Ceegee said:


> Look at a date as just having fun not as an interview or audition.
> 
> If a guy asks you out you already know there is a nominal amount of interest. So, just go with it and HAVE FUN.





staystrong said:


> One of the things that is the hardest to deal with is that in our very brief R we never had a good talk about what she wanted me to change, or what I wanted her to change (besides ending the A, of course). No specifics. Whether it be practical, emotional, sexual. It drives me crazy not knowing.
> 
> Have you all had those conversations? How much did you gain from them?


my stbxh had many such talks.. alone and with a MC. I really felt that our deepest talk (where we were both crying) came at a point that I told him I would accept it if he ever came back to me in the future and said he tried, but it just wasn’t working anymore and he needed to leave. He knew I meant it.... I really wanted to handle our marriage with dignity and if we needed to a separation or divorce with the same. All I asked from him was honesty. He cried, he said I can give you that at least... He promised to not have either a EA or PA on me again. that if he felt even tempted, we would agree to split up first. No more lies and deceit. Well he lied.... he had a PA for a year before i found out and retained a lawyer.

Other aspects of our marriage had changed so much I felt like we were on our honeymoon; he treated me better than he had in years. I gave him more respect and honor than I had in years.. I really felt like we had done it…


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Very sad, DYRC.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

well, It is what it is..... Of course it will not be like that for every couple that decides to R and have very frank and open conversations... I think its actually more on me then on him that I believed he could even attempt to be honest.. as my IC says.. when he opens up mouth-out comes lie..... On the bright note he is still somewhat caring of my needs. My car died Saturday, He wasn’t the first one I tried calling for help but after a neighbor couldn’t get my car to take a jump and told me it might be the starter, I called my stbx and he said he would look at it.. I went out for the day and he texted me that my battery was fried and I needed a new one. I asked if he could get it for me and I would pay him back and he said he was working on it.. the next text received was that he had left the battery, tools and instructions for me on the porch. I said "thank you very much, I appreciate it" (thinking, I can’t believe he didn’t install it but I will see if my bother-in-law will help me, grateful he at least got it for me.) he texted me back, just kidding it’s all done.....


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Very sad situation, DYRC. At least you tried. 

I don't like having to talk to my X but I have to because of the kids. It just sucks.. having to speak "normally" with someone who broke your heart and betrayed your trust in the most devious of ways. There's always this undercurrent of tension. The effects of infidelity last a long long time.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

I try not to contact my x also because he seems to relish "my still needing" him. He still comes to the house on a "daily" basis (no, I’m not there- usually) he is supposed to be working on it to get it ready for sale but no evidence of that yet. But he buys dog and cat food (i think he takes naps also) My TV channel is always on the history channel when I get home at night (that was his fav). Like I said before he has stopped in to just chat about his day. He has mentioned a couple times our going down to see our son together which I told him very firmly he was crazy if he even thought there was a chance of us doing a road trip together.... I feel like he thinks Im the OW now.... so I try to avoid him at all cost... calling him was swallowing my pride.... And yes it’s still hard.....


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Actually, I bet from his perspective, you calling him was not totally swallowing your pride. Sure it may him feel needed and fluffed him up a bit, but at the same time you're only calling him because you needed a task done. In a way, it was just a service call and so it must hit him that that's the only reason you are calling him.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Oh, so tempted right now to write a scathing letter to X.

Guess I was in denial about the hate. 

Damn these rollercoaster rides.


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## zappy (Jun 7, 2013)

SS - Looking at your posts I know I am not the only one in constant pain of betrayal.

Very difficult for me to understand how you holding up, given the circumstances.

My heart goes out for you and your two angels (Ds)


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

I hadn't felt comfortable acknowledging the fact that I feel hatred for her. I don't view myself as that type of person, who harbors those kind of feelings. But i couldn't keep it buried anymore. 

It's useful in getting beyond the pain, in letting go of the past and any desire for her. It feels like part of the process to me. I really need to heal, and the way I was going was preventing that. Like a drug that is destroying you, you need to be repulsed by it, develop a disgust for what it's doing to you. 

The attachment and longing has to be broken, so cutting them off, very limited contact, avoiding seeing them, hearing their voice, and non-essential texting/emails have to all end.


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## fourwheeler431 (Jun 21, 2013)

The part of it that is really going to suck for me is,I will have to see mine everyday to exchange the kids. I myself haven't hit the anger stage yet and from reading all of your posts SS I really feel for you and all you have been through.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Thanks 4 wheeler.

Consider me a case of what happens when you don't take enough control after D-Day. The experts in the CWI section of TAM know what they are talking about.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Actually, I bet from his perspective, you calling him was not totally swallowing your pride. Sure it may him feel needed and fluffed him up a bit, but at the same time you're only calling him because you needed a task done. In a way, it was just a service call and so it must hit him that that's the only reason you are calling him.


I never looked at it that way, I love hearing fresh perspectives.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I'm trying, MC.
> 
> In some ways, I think experiencing the deep betrayal and abandonment by a loved one must be worse than experiencing the death of a loved one. With betrayal, you have both the knives stuck in you plus the void and the longing. And the cherished image has been destroyed.
> 
> ...


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Found this in the comments section of an article about infidelity:

_I'm actually reading someone else's work at the moment and that author makes a similar observation to the effect that women have 4 primary emotional needs (I'll paraphrase):

1) Their thoughts and opinions should be validated by their husbands. (I'll add "whether or not he agrees with them" and that's not always easy)

2) Their husband should be available as their emotional foundation.

3) They should know that their husbands is always romantically and affectionately available to them.

4) They want to be able to show off their husband to their friends and family.

Men have similar needs:

1) Unconditional acceptance.

2) A true friend in his wife.

3) Respect (all of these sound mutual to me so far)

4) Great sex._

#1 on the wive's list is a hard one to put in practice when you're not consciously thinking about the relationship. Especially when you are in the Power Struggle stage after Romantic Love has waned. I kind of screwed the pooch in this area. 

Damn, I will be so prepared for my next relationship.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Great post, SS. 

I had a similar conversation with my brother about this same stuff recently. He said, yeah, yeah, sounds good, Carl Jung, but you'll still find some new way to f**k up the next relationship. Thanks, I said. 

BTW, always loved the expression "screwed the pooch". That, and referring to the turd in the punch bowl.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Haha, your brother is a hoot, right along with your sister. Please invite me to a BW family reunion. 

I don't think the lesson is to have this in the back of our heads. Most men have have room for about one relationship Post-It in their heads when they are on auto-pilot. This is a good one. Think of what Homer Simpson is capable of in terms of f'ing things up and consider that your auto-pilot mode. Then remember the Post It.


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## LivingAgain (Jun 12, 2013)

maincourse99 said:


> But I believe many, like my ex, are damaged emotionally and/or missing something so that they just don't develop the deep bonds with people (including their children) that the rest of us do.
> 
> Just my opinion, doesn't really matter much I guess.


That is my STBXH to a tee...he is so damaged that he'll never have a deep bond with anyone - even POSOW...she is just another entity to make him feel better about himself.

During MC and R, I knew deep down he was just saying what he knew he should say...no real feeling and/or self discovery.

I should have left him 9 years ago after the first affair...but soldiered on for my kids...didn't serve them well tho - he could care less about them. Only contacts them to keep up the facade of being a good dad...gak.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Sad story. Some people will walk through life like that.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

staystrong said:


> She just doesn't see the past and our marriage the same was as I do anymore. I suppose that's natural but it hurts. She seems to concentrate on the negatives and downplay the positives. She's brought up little things that hurt her over the years - it's amazing this catalog in her head. She has been carrying around these resentments I was clearly not aware of. She makes it sound as if our personalities just wouldn't work together when they seemed to be doing fine up until OM entered the scene. I do admit I could have lightened up about a few things, and I realise now that I wasn't handling my stress now. I'd really like to know what her new man brings into her life and if she is indeed "happier". They seem to have the makings of a good couple (strange to say), but then again they've only been living together for 8 months versus the 7 years we were together.
> 
> It sucks when one person's life must be sacrificed for another two people to be together. And YOU are that person. Love apparently is like any other game - there are winners and there are losers. So much for lofty ideals.


So sorry for your pain SS. Read Uncoupling by Dianne Vaugn, it will help explain what happened and why she can't remember the good as you do. She will some day, even as you catch up on thinking about the good and bad in the relationship in total, instead of mostly the good. Take care.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Good point, SS. 

Just remember the old saying - no matter how good looking they are, somebody, somewhere, is sick of their SHYT.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Good reading recommendation, Angstire.

Leaving with the kids for the USA tomorrow for a one-month trip. Very happy about that. 

As one year anniversary of D-Day approaches, I'm starting to have flashbacks of that time. I'm feeling *immense* guilt over not exposing the affair more. Never dug to find out OM's wife's contact info and never exposed to his workplace (WW was his student). Looking at D3, I'm just ticked at myself. Exposure is such a necessity to crack the affair and get the AP's questioning them selves and the relationship. And here I am now, life out of whack and eventually moving away from my girls. I start feeling good about myself and then come the flashbacks. I was so ready at the time to expend ounce of energy on saving the marriage and using the tools I read about on TAM, but I suppose I just got shell-shocked, like so many BS's do. If I had started my own thread on TAM at the time, I might have gotten enough ass-kicking to start exposing. It was the biggest challenge of my life and I'm just really upset at the way I handled it. I think I'm more upset about that than the affair itself. Oh well, I guess we just have to clean the slate and start fresh. But damn the guilt is heavy. How do you guys deal with it?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Good reading recommendation, Angstire.
> 
> Leaving with the kids for the USA tomorrow for a one-month trip. Very happy about that.
> 
> As one year anniversary of D-Day approaches, I'm starting to have flashbacks of that time. I'm feeling *immense* guilt over not exposing the affair more. Never dug to find out OM's wife's contact info and never exposed to his workplace (WW was his student). Looking at D3, I'm just ticked at myself. Exposure is such a necessity to crack the affair and get the AP's questioning them selves and the relationship. And here I am now, life out of whack and eventually moving away from my girls. I start feeling good about myself and then come the flashbacks. I was so ready at the time to expend ounce of energy on saving the marriage and using the tools I read about on TAM, but I suppose I just got shell-shocked, like so many BS's do. If I had started my own thread on TAM at the time, I might have gotten enough ass-kicking to start exposing. It was the biggest challenge of my life and I'm just really upset at the way I handled it. I think I'm more upset about that than the affair itself. Oh well, I guess we just have to clean the slate and start fresh. But damn the guilt is heavy. How do you guys deal with it?


We chip away at codependence here.

Going backward isn't an option.

-The Big Chipper


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Good call, Big Chipper. 

"You're not a man until you've had your heart broken." 

I think Richard Pryor said that. Certainly this crisis has brought me face to face with what it means to be a man in this world and in a relationship. There's a wealth of material on this site. I just don't like letting my kids down, that's the bottom of it. I need to stop reading the threads over at Marriage Builders perhaps. 

In some ways, I'm happy she's gone. It gives me a chance to rebuild. But letting go of the family concept is a hard one. I've seen plenty of step-families in action. It's just not the same unless the step-parent is making up for a lousy bio parent. And I'm not sure I want to start a new family in the USA. Not at this age (38 - yikes) and with the concern that crap, what if this would happen again? At the same time, I'm a family man, and I would get too bored not having (my own) kids running around the house. I figure I am going to have to improve myself and screen the next Mrs. SS. I don't want to have kids during the romantic phase of the relationship so that puts me at at least 42 til I could have another child. That's kind of pushing it, isn't it?


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

My deal is different because stbxw is having an affair with her self; grass will be so much greener when she doesn't have to deal with me or my kids. Not that she'll decide to come back, but she's in for a rude awakening once she's been away from my support (emotional, financial, logistical, etc.) for a few weeks. I may never know, but I think she's got a crash coming. 

So my deal is different, but all you can do is control yourself and your actions. If you have guilt from how you acted in the marriage, work on that, so future relationships don't get damaged by your bad actions. Read, think, talk to TAM peeps and figure out what you want from a relationship and what a healthy relationship looks like to you. What does it NEED to have and what do you WANT it to have. 

Once you've figured out what the healthy LRT looks like, perhaps you can go back and look at your M and figure out what wasn't working for you, in addition to what you can improve.

Maybe someone else can say something more intelligent about not exposing the affair like a bad-a$$, but what can you do now? If you had exposed, you likely would not be in a different situation today. Maybe you would have. But much like me listening to my WAW years ago or you exposing the affair like a bad-a$$, we can't do anything about it now. So, learn from your mistakes, work on who you want to be and forgive yourself. You can't change it, thinking about the what-ifs is tearing you up and you could use that energy for your kids and you. 

Life is too short, spend what life and energy you have on things that you can control and matter to you. Your WW and the past are out of your control.

Take care.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

SS

I agree with Angstire, the what-ifs will eat you up. I know only too well.

Hope your trip back to the States is a good one, bud.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Yeah SS forgive yourself. Most all of us here would like to have a re-do, but like Angstire said, would it have made a difference? You'll never know, but most likely not. 

It's good to see you thinking about a future wife. Take all you've learned and apply it in the next relationship.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Definitely thinking about future wife and life. Kind of looking forward to dating, getting to know someone and getting those new love thrills. The idea used to depress me but that was only because I was afraid of losing a big chunk of time if the next relationship doesn't work out. Now I'm much more open-minded and go with the flow. This time will be clean - I am sure as hell not going to get with someone who is "separating", "divorcing" and certainly not someone who is married. I will spare myself the pain of any of that. 

You got it right, Angstire. But I would have loved to have seen POSOM squirm once his employer had found out. Ah, to have gotten him fired would've really boosted my confidence at the time. Well at least I kicked his ass. I'll always have that. Cheers to me.


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## kmk (Dec 17, 2012)

I feel your pain. I'm currently separated from my husband and am the one waiting for him to come back around. The only thing keeping me going is finding my own happiness again...accepting myself for who I am, feeling grateful for what I do have and trying to enjoy my life. 

I have found this website very helpful. I'm not affiliated in any way, it's just been so healing for me that I thought I'd share.
Happiness Self Awareness | Change Core Beliefs | Express Love | Control Emotional Reactions | Happy Relationships with Love and Respect

Also, the book The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz.

Peace.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Good point, SS. I had forgotten - you did get to kick his azz. That makes up for a lot.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> Good point, SS. I had forgotten - you did get to kick his azz. That makes up for a lot.


Yes...I lived vicariously through that one. My mouth still waters at the thought of it.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Punch, there isn't a day that goes by when I don't think about really hurting Goofy Irish Guy. And it might take a while. But someday when he's least expecting, there I will be.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Bullwinkle said:


> Punch, there isn't a day that goes by when I don't think about really hurting Goofy Irish Guy. And it might take a while. But someday when he's least expecting, there I will be.


LIKE :smthumbup:


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Well don't forget us women who will also be getting revenge soon enough...its not just you men who are gonna pound someone into the ground....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

familyfirst09 said:


> Well don't forget us women who will also be getting revenge soon enough...its not just you men who are gonna pound someone into the ground....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LIKE even more. :smthumbup: 

Probably for the wrong reasons though!


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Me too.


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## familyfirst09 (Dec 6, 2012)

Oh yeah? And what reason would that be? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I can't speak for GutPunch, but me personally, I have always enjoyed, perhaps inappropriately, watching a woman beat up a man, especially if he deserved it.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

BW....She's talking about a cat fight.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

GP, you know I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed.....

But when you say cat fight, are we talking pulled hair, ripped blouses?


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

angstire;
Life is too short said:


> Love this!! :iagree:


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

So do the nightmares ever end? Because I'm really getting sick of waking up at 4am due to vivid dreams about my ex's betrayal. How long does this crap last?


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



staystrong said:


> So do the nightmares ever end? Because I'm really getting sick of waking up at 4am due to vivid dreams about my ex's betrayal. How long does this crap last?


It gets better the more you move on.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

SS, I don't have nightmares, but after 16 months it's still on my mind constantly. The pain is less, but I feel gutted. 

I'm sure you, I and most everyone else who has been through it will eventually be ok, but we've been deeply traumatized. I'm not optimistic that "healing" is going to happen in the near future for me. Maybe another year or two.

And hopefully I can apply what I've learned through all this and be a better more self-reliant, stronger person. I have some good days sprinkled in among the bad ones, so progress is being made. 

Do you see where you've progressed?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Yes, I see some areas where I've progressed. 

Like you, I feel like this may take a very long time, and it concerns me. The nightmares being evidence of that. We're all carrying around a lot of emotional baggage and some pretty deep scars. 

It's still on my mind most of the time. When it bogs me down, I try to take comfort in the fact that this was not caused by my actions, whereas in the past I placed a lot of blame on myself. (Though I do think still about my actions post D-Day.) So that gives me strength and reassures me of my own integrity, even if my ex continues to justify her actions. 

I've struck up two LD friendships with women so it's nice having that company, but I'm not prepared to date yet unless someone magical comes along that keeps me distracted from looking in the rearview mirror. I feel like I almost need a rebound relationship for the self-esteem boost, though I don't want to hurt anyone. Ideally, I can find someone who is looking for the same, as a way to help heal each other while we work on ourselves. Though that sounds risky, too, if a lop-sided attachment occurs and it very likely could. 

I have more self-reliance but my life is still in a state of flux right now (will be moving soon) so the lack of stability creates stress. And yes, still very concerned about the effect my move will have on my kids. Short-term and long-term. I don't want my kids to have abandonment issues.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Folks,

Look into EMDR therapy. It really helped me deal with the painful memories of my X's infidelities. Like you, I had insomnia because of waking to those thoughts/memories.

When you dream about those times, your subconscious mind is attempting to reconcile it with your conscious mind.

EMDR will immensely speed up that process. It will detoxify those memories. You will still have the memories, but the toxic emotions associated with them will dissipate.For me, after two EMDR sessions, I was sleeping soundly.

Ask your IC if he/she does EMDR, and if not, will they refer you to someone who is certified in it.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

For me, getting into a relationship right now would be a mistake. I have dated a bit, but there's either no mutual attraction or the other person wants more than I'm ready to give. So I'm giving up on that for the time being.

I've just immersed myself in my daily routine of work, taking care of my daughter and innumerable household tasks. Also try to exercise daily. 

There is no easy solution. I have concluded that I'll feel better in due time. It's very similar to having a close loved one die or going through combat. You never fully heal, it just fades a bit enabling you to extract some joy out of life.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Yes, I see some areas where I've progressed.
> 
> Like you, I feel like this may take a very long time, and it concerns me. The nightmares being evidence of that. We're all carrying around a lot of emotional baggage and some pretty deep scars.
> 
> ...



Staystrong: I’m so sorry you are still having such a hard time. I have just a couple thoughts.

1st) Two damaged people will not equal a whole complete person. all you’re going to do with going into another relationship (even if you try to make it casual)is add more confusion, hurt and possibly doing yourself more damage then already inflicted. I have just recently started to date again but am taking it very slow. I had to make sure I had something to offer not just try to take to heal.

2nd) The dreams, before you go to sleep, write out positive things, what you have done for the better what you want to accomplish.. Any blessings you can think of. Concentrate on those things at least an hour before you go to sleep. I bet you will start to find you will have a different sleep pattern soon.

Blessings,

DYRC


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Before I go to sleep, I try to focus on the best things that happened to me that day, particularly regarding my kids. It helps with good nights of sleep.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

ThreeStrikes said:


> Folks,
> 
> Look into EMDR therapy. It really helped me deal with the painful memories of my X's infidelities. Like you, I had insomnia because of waking to those thoughts/memories.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reminder. I had heard about this but had not searched for it. Will do so soon.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

doureallycare2 said:


> Staystrong: I’m so sorry you are still having such a hard time. I have just a couple thoughts.
> 
> 1st) Two damaged people will not equal a whole complete person. all you’re going to do with going into another relationship (even if you try to make it casual)is add more confusion, hurt and possibly doing yourself more damage then already inflicted. I have just recently started to date again but am taking it very slow. I had to make sure I had something to offer not just try to take to heal.
> 
> ...



Good advice. I think I'll also try the EMDR therapy since it sounds like those results came pretty quickly to ThreeStrikes. 

I'm not much of a journal keeper. Never have been. But I do like the idea of writing out positive things. It sounds like it could be very reinforcing over time. 

Isn't a rebound relationship inevitable? I almost feel like I want to get it out of the way with someone who is also cognizant of what she's doing. I feel as though there's the pressure to not bring up one's past in order to not scare away a normally healthy person who would see baggage as a red flag. However, with someone who can relate and is supportive, I don't have to worry so much about being guarded. And I would be extra communicative about what it is I'm feeling. I don't think I can go on a normal date yet (meaning where I can offer as much as I normally could), but I could spend some intimate time with someone who shares what I am going through. What do you think?


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

I had a rebound relationship, but thankfully it was an online one. It actually killed two birds with one stone; I got my senses about me and I was able to dip my toe into the world of my ex for a bit.

It showed me that I still had a lot of work to do at the time and it's probably why I've avoided the advances of a few others since.

Even then, I wasn't seeking anything. It just happened.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> I had a rebound relationship, but thankfully it was an online one. It actually killed two birds with one stone; I got my senses about me and I was able to dip my toe into the world of my ex for a bit.
> 
> It showed me that I still had a lot of work to do at the time and it's probably why I've avoided the advances of a few others since.
> 
> Even then, I wasn't seeking anything. It just happened.


From what you wrote, it sounds like the other person wasn't single. Or am I misreading you?


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> From what you wrote, it sounds like the other person wasn't single. Or am I misreading you?


I was under the impression that she was, it later turned out she felt I was the OM to her marriage (once she realized she wanted to continue on with the marriage) and from my end that simply wasn't true. Which is fine, that's where focusing on you and knowing that just because someone thinks something, that doesn't mean you have to think it too. Can't control anyone but yourself, it was hurtful for a while but I moved on.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Jeezus, Daddio, that's terrible. It's like another betrayal. What happened? Did she tell you 'separating' or 'divorcing'? Not trying to be funny but didn't your TAM alarms go off?


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



staystrong said:


> Jeezus, Daddio, that's terrible. It's like another betrayal. What happened? Did she tell you 'separating' or 'divorcing'? Not trying to be funny but didn't your TAM alarms go off?


Let's just go with "it's complicated". In any event, it's in the past and my direction is forward.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Fair enough. Moving forward.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Fair enough. Moving forward.


It's what you got to do, try to gain what you can from your experiences but keep your eyes off the rear-view as much as you can. Staring behind you can cause quite an awful crash in front of you, this I know all too well.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

06Daddio08 said:


> I was under the impression that she was, it later turned out she felt I was the OM to her marriage (once she realized she wanted to continue on with the marriage) and from my end that simply wasn't true. Which is fine, that's where focusing on you and knowing that just because someone thinks something, that doesn't mean you have to think it too. Can't control anyone but yourself, it was hurtful for a while but I moved on.


:rofl:

Let's not forget, kiddos...

There are two sides to every story.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

It would be a lot easier to see those sides if people wouldn't go deleting their threads all the time. 

All that collective wisdom down the drain with the click of a mouse...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Tron said:


> It would be a lot easier to see those sides if people wouldn't go deleting their threads all the time.
> 
> All that collective wisdom down the drain with the click of a mouse...


Don't forget, sometimes it's the mods that delete them.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Tron said:


> It would be a lot easier to see those sides if people wouldn't go deleting their threads all the time.
> 
> All that collective wisdom down the drain with the click of a mouse...


I don't delete my threads, but thanks for such an astute assumption.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

HappyKaty said:


> I don't delete my threads, but thanks for such an astute assumption.


My bad. 

Those wretched mods spoil all our fun.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can't let go, got a bad case of "One-itis"*



HappyKaty said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Let's not forget, kiddos...
> 
> There are two sides to every story.


Three sides.

His, hers and the truth.


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