# Falling "IN LOVE" again



## Hoosier

Brief back ground then story. (look up Hoosier if you want the thread) 30 years married. in July 2011, my xw, upon my discovery of text messages. Literally packed two bags, walked five blocks and moved in with the OM. Divorced in 82 days, they married six months later, and remain married to this day. No contact since 2012. My three daughters, 26, 30, 32 and I remain close. Even tho one is 1200 miles away another is 1800 miles away. I hear from them nearly everyday and see them pretty often. I own my own business, and years of hard labor allow me a lot of flexability in my hours, time off. I have a great life! Many close friends, family, and not rich, but dont worry about money. Now my question:

In the five years I have been divorced, I have dated a few women, two of them long term, including my current gf who I have been seeing for two years. She is great. We are together 51 of 52 weekends. Her kids are out of the home as well. She and I enjoy the same tastes in music, same tastes in adventure, have traveled quite a bit, get along great. The problem is, at least a problem for her, is that I dont have the "cant do without her" feeling. (We get together on Wednesday nights during the week and then the weekend. Living 30 minutes apart.) I dont know if it is my age (57) but I remember a time when I just could not wait to see my wife, missed her a lot when we were apart, not there at all. With my gf I call/text her daily. But she wants more. I talked with her repeately when we first started dating, told her where I was, what my plans were. I havent changed. I wish I could have the feelings she desires, but dont think I would with anyone. Am I just broken?


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## sokillme

I think the can't be without you feeling isn't healthy myself, depending on the level of the feeling. I miss you greatly makes sense, I can't live without you is risky.


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## EunuchMonk

sokillme said:


> I think the can't be without you feeling isn't healthy myself, depending on the level of the feeling. I miss you greatly makes sense, I can't live without you is risky.


This. OP, I think you have matured so you don't feel this childish "I can't do without my mommy/daddy" feeling. Mid-life Crisis is basically adults searching for this juvenile euphoria. I know some will disagree but this is what I believe.


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## FeministInPink

I don't know if you're broken, but I would like to see what other people have to say about your situation, because it looks a lot like mine. My current partner, who I've been seeing for a year, seems to be in the same boat as you (though he is about 10 yrs younger than you, and has no children). We spend every weekend together, and sometimes one (or more!) evenings during the week. He's a wonderful man, but he says that he can't ever allow himself to love another woman after the way he's been hurt in the past. He's built a wall to protect himself and keep others out. Like you, his XW cheated, left him and married the OM as soon as the divorce was finalized. I absolutely adore him, and he says he cares for me deeply and that I make him happy... but I want to be with someone who is in love with me, someone who can't wait to see me, who misses me when I am away. I'm at a crossroads myself and I'm not sure what to do in my own situation. We had a big fight about this a week ago, and while I agreed to stay for now, I'm having serious doubts and things feel very different to me now.


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## Hoosier

FeministInPink said:


> I don't know if you're broken, but I would like to see what other people have to say about your situation, because it looks a lot like mine. My current partner, who I've been seeing for a year, seems to be in the same boat as you (though he is about 10 yrs younger than you, and has no children). We spend every weekend together, and sometimes one (or more!) evenings during the week. He's a wonderful man, but he says that he can't ever allow himself to love another woman after the way he's been hurt in the past. He's built a wall to protect himself and keep others out. Like you, his XW cheated, left him and married the OM as soon as the divorce was finalized. I absolutely adore him, and he says he cares for me deeply and that I make him happy... but I want to be with someone who is in love with me, someone who can't wait to see me, who misses me when I am away. I'm at a crossroads myself and I'm not sure what to do in my own situation. We had a big fight about this a week ago, and while I agreed to stay for now, I'm having serious doubts and things feel very different to me now.


I will be most interested in your situation! He does in fact sound exactly like me. I dont know if in my case I havent got the wild out of me yet. Did he ever talk about his expectations? You tell him yours? I get exactly what you are saying, and him as well. That is my question I guess. Were my gf to give me any ultimatiums I would take a pass. I would miss her, but my life would not be devestated. I wish I could have that feeling again, but wishing dont make it so. In his defense, I am sure you do make him happy, and he does care for you deeply, in my case that is the best I have.


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## Married but Happy

Do you feel like you don't WANT to do without her? That may be close enough for her. I may be (still be) madly in love with my second wife, but I COULD do without her if I had to - but I certainly do not WANT to be without her. A simple rephrasing may be all you need here.


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## jorgegene

maybe you are broken, maybe not.

maybe you are just self sufficient emotionally and spiritually and don't 'need' someone as bad as 'madly in love' demands.

if you are broken, it's only one aspect of a much larger you. if you are, it's no wonder the hurt and betrayal left you with an impenetrable wall.

it's an introspective question that is worth thought and contemplation.

i don't necessarily agree however with those who say 'can't be without you' is unhealthy. 
it depends what you mean by it. the feeling and emotional intensity of appreciating and being caught up so closely with another human being is among
the heights of human existence. even if that love was to depart through death or infidelity, that love can last forever and teach us what it is to be bonded
to another human being so that we are truly one and not two. that is a mystery which few can plumb it's depths.
but when we find it, we are not far from the meaning of existence.

no man is an island, but some of us can be happy pretty much on our own.


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## Hoosier

jorgegene said:


> maybe you are broken, maybe not.
> 
> maybe you are just self sufficient emotionally and spiritually and don't 'need' someone as bad as 'madly in love' demands.
> 
> if you are broken, it's only one aspect of a much larger you. if you are, it's no wonder the hurt and betrayal left you with an impenetrable wall.
> 
> it's an introspective question that is worth thought and contemplation.
> 
> i don't necessarily agree however with those who say 'can't be without you' is unhealthy.
> it depends what you mean by it. the feeling and emotional intensity of appreciating and being caught up so closely with another human being is among
> the heights of human existence. even if that love was to depart through death or infidelity, that love can last forever and teach us what it is to be bonded
> to another human being so that we are truly one and not two. that is a mystery which few can plumb it's depths.
> but when we find it, we are not far from the meaning of existence.
> 
> no man is an island, but some of us can be happy pretty much on our own.


Wow! thanks for this. Yes, I was hurt, badly. I did not/could not work for a year. Thank god I am my own boss or I would of been fired. I guess I dont feel broken. I really dont. Guess thats why I ask, as some say not feeling "LOVE" is being broken.


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## Diana7

We were both deeply hurt and betrayed by our respective first spouses both after 23 years of marriage. When I met my now husband we were both in our late 40's, and I knew in a very short time that I wanted to marry him and as soon as possible. I fell in love very soon and would have been devastated if it hadn't worked out. I had every reason not to trust again and to put up walls, as he did as well, but then you loose out on so much in life.
If we can do it so can others, we were married within 9 months of meeting and its now 11 years later and we are great together. 

Its a choice to love again and commit again. I have a sister in law who lived with a man for a few years but eventually left because he refused to marry her, so he lost out on a lovely lady because of his refusal to face the possibility of getting divorced again. Silly man. 

I would wonder if she isn't more of a good friend than someone who you want to be committed to? I also wonder if you are actually in love with her?


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## jorgegene

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> Wow! thanks for this. Yes, I was hurt, badly. I did not/could not work for a year. Thank god I am my own boss or I would of been fired. I guess I dont feel broken. I really dont. Guess thats why I ask, as some say not feeling "LOVE" is being broken.


if you don't feel broken, then it's a good bet you're fine for now.

when and if that day ever comes that you yearn for more, then you're already there.


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## Bananapeel

I totally get where you're coming from and I'll share my perspective. What I think altered my view of love and relationships, was when I fell out of love with my XWW (it took months after the divorce was finalized and I would never have believed it was possible prior to experiencing it). Realizing that at one point I was madly in love and would have done anything for her and today I feel nothing, was an awakening that I never expected. I think that is what has built up these so-called "walls" because I am very cognizant of the fact that feelings can and do change on both sides of relationships. Realizing that the feelings of love are not necessarily permanent makes it very hard to give in and totally let yourself fall for someone. Hoosier, maybe it is simpler than that just means that the relationship isn't the right one yet? Or alternatively, that your relationship that you are comfortable with is one for companionship without the intense feelings.


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## FeministInPink

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> I will be most interested in your situation! He does in fact sound exactly like me. I dont know if in my case I havent got the wild out of me yet. Did he ever talk about his expectations? You tell him yours? I get exactly what you are saying, and him as well. That is my question I guess. Were my gf to give me any ultimatiums I would take a pass. I would miss her, but my life would not be devestated. I wish I could have that feeling again, but wishing dont make it so. In his defense, I am sure you do make him happy, and he does care for you deeply, in my case that is the best I have.


Ugh, it's complicated. What do you mean, haven't got the wild out of you yet?

Yes, we have talked about expectations, in a limited sense... his expectations have been a moving target, honestly. Starting out, he was saying, _I don't ever want a relationships again, I don't ever want a girlfriend again_... then six months later, he's saying that we're a couple and acknowledging that we are in a relationship, but claims he still doesn't want a girlfriend/boyfriend thing, because that means that we are thinking about marriage, and he never wants to get married again. And whenever he makes declarations about what he doesn't want, he always makes a disclaimer that this is the way he feels now, and he doesn't see it changing, but he might feel differently in a year. All labels aside, we're as committed as any two people who have been seeing each other exclusively for a year can be, and he asked me once what I expected/wanted out of a boyfriend, a gave him list of things that I expected from a boyfriend, and he said, I'm willing to give you all that, I'm just not saying that I'm your boyfriend because that's a precursor to marriage. I've never pushed my agenda regarding my expectations, I've been happy to take things as they come and let things develop in an organic way... it has only come up a few times, when I felt he was neglecting me/my needs or not making me enough of a priority; usually, he is very responsive when I communicate something like this, but if he's stressed about something else that I don't know about, he'll go into "I need to assert my independence and remind you that you're not my girlfriend" mode, which always results in a big fight, like the one we had last week.

And I DO want to get married again, someday, but only if it's to the right person, and I'm not in any rush at this point. At this point, I just want a boyfriend, and I am happy to stay at that point for a long time. He asked me, five months ago, to be patient with him, because he has a lot of baggage, and I have been very patient with him. Until this fight last week, we never really spoke about my expectations, and I was ok with that. I didn't have any expectations... expectations for the future keep you from living fully in the present, which is a waste when the future may never even happen. I was happy with our relationship, and I felt like I was getting my needs met in the current state of affairs. And if our relationship was meant to become something more, then that would happen naturally. Then again, I also thought that his behavior and affection was coming from a place of love, and that his feelings were evolving.

I was upset because he had come home from a week and a half in Africa, and I barely saw him in the week and a half before he left... and I thought that we would FINALLY get some time together now that he was back, and I felt like he was blowing me off in favor of everything else, making me wait another five days until the weekend to see him. I had waited three weeks to get some quality time in, and he was expecting me to wait another 5 days? That did NOT go over well with me, not at all. So we got into a fight about it, which led him to ask, "What do you want out of this relationship? ... because I get the feeling that you want more than I am willing to give." Which turned into another fight. And it became very frustrating for me, because a lot of his reasons for not wanting anything more serious sounded more like excuses and fear talking, than actual legitimate reasons. And it was very hard for me, too, because the whole thing triggered my fear of abandonment (it really felt like he was rejecting me on some level). (One of his things about us not being bf/gf is that if we aren't bf/gf, then we can't "break up"--neither one of us can't dump the other. He thinks it will protect him from being rejected. Which makes absolutely no sense at all. A lot of things about his arguments on this topic have been illogical.)

He says he's never met someone as compatible with him as I am. And he sees us together for years into the future. That I'm his favorite person, that he cares for me more than anyone else in his life. What I don't understand is how you could meet someone so perfect for you, whom you see a [short-term, few years] future with, who you care for so much, and yet... you don't want to even consider the possibility of something more serious, more permanent with them? It makes no sense to me at all.

I hate his XW so, so much. She screwed him up so bad... the sad thing is that the betrayal and divorce made him the man who he is today, and ironically, pushed him to learn how to be a better partner. And because he IS such a good partner is one of the reasons I like him so much. He said once, if I had met you instead of her, things would have been very different for us... and I said, if I had met you then, we wouldn't have worked. Our relationship would have failed then, because you were a different person then, and I'm in love with the man you are NOW. SMH.


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## Diana7

My aunt met and married the love of her life when she was 60 and he 70. Its never too late to fall in love. Maybe she isnt the one?


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## 2&out

No you aren't broken. It is who you are now - don't make excuses for that. As long as you feel fine with yourself you are. 

Don't let yourself get pushed into Beta BS about how you "should" feel or act. If after 2 years she isn't secure with you and the relationship then she should move on. You haven't done anything wrong. Tell her to pull up her big girl panties and deal with her issues herself instead of dumping them on you to fix and feel guilty about. By now I'd hope you know you can't "fix" someone else's feelings. You've been honest with her and respectful - what the hell else does she want ? Big ass RED flag dude - 2 years in and she is questioning your feelings / commitment ? Think that will change ? Ever ? Unlikely. 

Not trying to be mean - just calling it like I see it. With best regards.


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## C3156

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> The problem is, at least a problem for her, is that I dont have the "cant do without her" feeling....Am I just broken?


I too was burned by my who cheated with my best friend. Took me a long time to get over the loss of my "true love" and feel okay again.

I'll be honest, I will not be dependent on any one person again for my happiness, my financial stability, or all my emotional needs. I love my wife and I think she is a great woman, but if she decided to leave I would not beg her to stay. I love her, but I could survive without her just fine.

So no, I don't believe you are broken. Others may say I am doing my wife a disservice by not giver her everything. I will counter that I work very hard to meet her emotional & stability needs, which is important to her.


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## jb02157

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> I will be most interested in your situation! He does in fact sound exactly like me. I dont know if in my case I havent got the wild out of me yet. Did he ever talk about his expectations? You tell him yours? I get exactly what you are saying, and him as well. That is my question I guess. Were my gf to give me any ultimatiums I would take a pass. I would miss her, but my life would not be devestated. I wish I could have that feeling again, but wishing dont make it so. In his defense, I am sure you do make him happy, and he does care for you deeply, in my case that is the best I have.


I think that if I ever found myself in the situation I would be exactly like you. I chalk it up to being broken. I've already gave whatever I have to someone and they didn't want it. A wall would go up to prevent that from happening again. It would probably happen without my ever realizing it.


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## BetrayedDad

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> my current gf who I have been seeing for two years. She is great. We are together 51 of 52 weekends. Her kids are out of the home as well. She and I enjoy the same tastes in music, same tastes in adventure, have traveled quite a bit, get along great. The problem is, at least a problem for her, is that I dont have the "cant do without her" feeling. (We get together on Wednesday nights during the week and then the weekend. Living 30 minutes apart.) I dont know if it is my age (57) but I remember a time when I just could not wait to see my wife, missed her a lot when we were apart, not there at all. With my gf I call/text her daily. But she wants more. I talked with her repeately when we first started dating, told her where I was, what my plans were. I havent changed. I wish I could have the feelings she desires, but dont think I would with anyone. Am I just broken?





Formally known as Hoosier said:


> Were my gf to give me any ultimatiums I would take a pass. I would miss her, but my life would not be devestated. I wish I could have that feeling again, but wishing dont make it so. In his defense, I am sure you do make him happy, and he does care for you deeply, in my case that is the best I have.


I'm in the same exact situation with my gf but about 20 years younger. 

I think when you get burned like we did it changes how you feel about future relationships.

Perhaps a way of the brain protecting your psyche from future traumatic injury? 

I'm not sure. If you figure it out eventually, PM me. I'd love to know too LOL.


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## FeministInPink

C3156 said:


> I too was burned by my who cheated with my best friend. Took me a long time to get over the loss of my "true love" and feel okay again.
> 
> I'll be honest, I will not be dependent on any one person again for my happiness, my financial stability, or all my emotional needs. I love my wife and I think she is a great woman, but if she decided to leave I would not beg her to stay. I love her, but I could survive without her just fine.
> 
> So no, I don't believe you are broken. Others may say I am doing my wife a disservice by not giver her everything. I will counter that I work very hard to meet her emotional & stability needs, which is important to her.


A certain amount of interdependence is healthy. Co-dependence is not. 

If you're working hard to meet her needs in the relationship, that's good. I'll admit, though, as a giver and out of a desire for a truly reciprocal relationship, I would want to know that my partner is relying on me to meet his needs as well, because I want to give that to him. What needs do you rely on her to meet?


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## Rowan

FeministInPink said:


> Ugh, it's complicated. What do you mean, haven't got the wild out of you yet?
> 
> Yes, we have talked about expectations, in a limited sense... *his expectations have been a moving target*, honestly. Starting out, *he was saying,* *I don't ever want a relationships again, I don't ever want a girlfriend again... then six months later, he's saying that we're a couple and acknowledging that we are in a relationship, but claims he still doesn't want a girlfriend/boyfriend thing, because that means that we are thinking about marriage, and he never wants to get married again*. And whenever he makes declarations about what he doesn't want, he always makes a disclaimer that *this is the way he feels now, and he doesn't see it changing, but he might feel differently in a year*. All labels aside, we're as committed as any two people who have been seeing each other exclusively for a year can be, and he asked me once what I expected/wanted out of a boyfriend, a gave him list of things that I expected from a boyfriend, and he said, I'm willing to give you all that,* I'm just not saying that I'm your boyfriend because that's a precursor to marriage*. I've never pushed my agenda regarding my expectations, I've been happy to take things as they come and let things develop in an organic way... it has only come up a few times, when *I felt he was neglecting me/my needs or not making me enough of a priority*; usually, he is very responsive when I communicate something like this, but *if he's stressed about something else that I don't know about, he'll go into "I need to assert my independence and remind you that you're not my girlfriend" mode*, which always results in a big fight, like the one we had last week.
> 
> And I DO want to get married again, someday, but only if it's to the right person, and I'm not in any rush at this point. At this point, I just want a boyfriend, and I am happy to stay at that point for a long time. He asked me, five months ago, to be patient with him, because *he has a lot of baggage, and I have been very patient with him*. Until this fight last week, *we never really spoke about my expectations, and I was ok with that*. I didn't have any expectations... expectations for the future keep you from living fully in the present, which is a waste when the future may never even happen. I was happy with our relationship, and I felt like I was getting my needs met in the current state of affairs. And if our relationship was meant to become something more, then that would happen naturally. Then again, *I also thought that his behavior and affection was coming from a place of love, and that his feelings were evolving*.
> 
> I was upset because he had come home from a week and a half in Africa, and I barely saw him in the week and a half before he left... and I thought that we would FINALLY get some time together now that he was back, and I felt like he was blowing me off in favor of everything else, making me wait another five days until the weekend to see him. *I had waited three weeks to get some quality time in, and he was expecting me to wait another 5 days*? That did NOT go over well with me, not at all. So we got into a fight about it, which led him to ask, *"What do you want out of this relationship? ... because I get the feeling that you want more than I am willing to give." *Which turned into another fight. And it became very frustrating for me, because a lot of *his reasons for not wanting anything more serious sounded more like excuses and fear talking, than actual legitimate reasons*. And it was very hard for me, too, because the whole thing triggered my fear of abandonment (it really felt like he was rejecting me on some level). (*One of his things about us not being bf/gf is that if we aren't bf/gf, then we can't "break up"--neither one of us can't dump the other.* He thinks it will protect him from being rejected. Which makes absolutely no sense at all. A lot of things about his arguments on this topic have been illogical.)
> 
> He says he's never met someone as compatible with him as I am. And he sees us together for years into the future. That I'm his favorite person, that he cares for me more than anyone else in his life. What I don't understand is how you could meet someone so perfect for you, whom you see a [short-term, few years] future with, who you care for so much, and yet... you don't want to even consider the possibility of something more serious, more permanent with them? It makes no sense to me at all.
> 
> I hate his XW so, so much. She screwed him up so bad... the sad thing is that the betrayal and divorce made him the man who he is today, and ironically, pushed him to learn how to be a better partner. And because he IS such a good partner is one of the reasons I like him so much. He said once, if I had met you instead of her, things would have been very different for us... and I said, if I had met you then, we wouldn't have worked. Our relationship would have failed then, because you were a different person then, and I'm in love with the man you are NOW. SMH.


FIP, your fella is emotionally unavailable. The push-pull thing he does, where he's your boyfriend except he isn't and wants to remind you of that fact, allows him to keep you on the hook and keep getting his needs met without making you an actual priority. And you're allowing it. You're projecting love and evolving feelings that aren't actually in him. You're holding on to hope because he's doling out hope-bait by telling you that his feelings might change - presumably if you're...what? More, better, different, what? You're trying to be patient and understanding and to not place demands on him. And all that would be fine, good even, except that you don't actually sound like you're really okay with this nebulous, no-definitions, boundary-less, quasi relationship you find yourself in. You honestly sound more like someone who's trying to be "low maintenance" because you're deathly afraid of being called "high maintenance" or "demanding". But the truth is, that it's okay to be demanding, when what you're demanding is honesty, respect, clarity, to have your needs met equitably in the relationship, and to put an end to moving targets. Expectations in a relationship are not necessarily a bad thing. 

The problem is that your guy has told you what he wants, but you're still trying to figure out what he's saying. You've been together a year and he still insists he's not your boyfriend - to the point of feeling the occasional need to remind you of that fact. If you want a boyfriend, he's not your guy.


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## FeministInPink

Rowan said:


> FIP, your fella is emotionally unavailable. The push-pull thing he does, where he's your boyfriend except he isn't and wants to remind you of that fact, allows him to keep you on the hook and keep getting his needs met without making you an actual priority. And you're allowing it. You're projecting love and evolving feelings that aren't actually in him. You're holding on to hope because he's doling out hope-bait by telling you that his feelings might change - presumably if you're...what? More, better, different, what? You're trying to be patient and understanding and to not place demands on him. And all that would be fine, good even, except that you don't actually sound like you're really okay with this nebulous, no-definitions, boundary-less, quasi relationship you find yourself in. You honestly sound more like someone who's trying to be "low maintenance" because you're deathly afraid of being called "high maintenance" or "demanding". But the truth is, that it's okay to be demanding, when what you're demanding is honesty, respect, clarity, to have your needs met equitably in the relationship, and to put an end to moving targets. Expectations in a relationship are not necessarily a bad thing.
> 
> The problem is that your guy has told you what he wants, but you're still trying to figure out what he's saying. You've been together a year and he still insists he's not your boyfriend - to the point of feeling the occasional need to remind you of that fact. If you want a boyfriend, he's not your guy.


Thanks for your feedback, Rowan, but I posted this for the OP because he wanted to hear a little more, not to get feedback on my personal situation from other folks. If I needed feedback, I would have posted my own thread. And you would have the entire contextual story to respond to, not just one post.

Maybe he is emotionally unavailable. But he DOES make me a priority... the example in the previous post is an outlier, and I only gave it to put the argument in context. I am one of the few priorities in his life, but at that moment, all of them had come together to create the perfect storm of priorities, but I didn't know it at the time because I hadn't seen him while he was out of town and we hadn't had time to talk.

He doesn't expect me or want me to change. In fact, for the first time in my life, with him, _I don't feel like I need to change or be any different_. I have, and I do make demands on him, and he expects me to do so if I'm unhappy, and he always does his best to resolve these issues and talk them through with me. We do have boundaries, we are exclusive, we've always maintained a policy of complete honesty in our relationship, we have a great deal of respect in our relationship, and not only are my needs being met for the first time in any relationship, he actively wants to know what he can do better to make sure my needs are continually met. And I may have mispoken... I have expectations of all the above. But in the context of my conversation with him, I don't have expectations like, "I want us to get married in X number of years." I like my independence, and I value it because it was very hard won. I'm not looking to give it up anytime soon.


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## bkyln309

This thread has hit home for me. I have been dating a man for 2 years. He has told me he is emotional detached since his divorce 5 years ago. He sounds very much like Hoosier. 

As some of you know, I have been back and forth about breaking up with him because he cant say I love you or integrate me fully into his life. I am not looking for marriage or living together, but I do want someone to be fully integrated into my life . I know he cares for me. But I believe if I broke it off, he would not be devastated. I think he would slot someone else in. I really think he is looking for companionship and intimacy on his terms. I think this relationship will go as long as I let it as overall we get along great and his needs are fulfilled. Unfortunately mine are not and I am growing restless. Its sad that this relationship has to end because he chooses not to risk. It is incredibly selfish of him because I will be the one very hurt once this ends. Not him.


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## FeministInPink

bkyln309 said:


> This thread has hit home for me. I have been dating a man for 2 years. He has told me he is emotional detached since his divorce 5 years ago. He sounds very much like Hoosier.
> 
> As some of you know, I have been back and forth about breaking up with him because he cant say I love you or integrate me fully into his life. I am not looking for marriage or living together, but I do want someone to be fully integrated into my life . I know he cares for me. But I believe if I broke it off, he would not be devastated. I think he would slot someone else in. I really think he is looking for companionship and intimacy on his terms. I think this relationship will go as long as I let it as overall we get along great and his needs are fulfilled. Unfortunately mine are not and I am growing restless. Its sad that this relationship has to end because he chooses not to risk. It is incredibly selfish of him because I will be the one very hurt once this ends. Not him.


And that's his intention, of course (the guy you're dating, not necessarily Hoosier). He refuses to become attached and refuses to take a risk because he doesn't want to get hurt (again). Protecting himself is more important than having a truly intimate relationship; a real relationship isn't worth the risk to him.


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## Wolf1974

I think being crushed emotionally always brings out the risk vs reward thought processes. I don't know that I will ever leave that zone again and really don't want to.


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## Diana7

I feel for all of you here who have these partners who are so half hearted in their commitment. If they dont want to commit, then why did they date you in the first place? Honestly, its a DECISION to commit, and I see it as they are using you. 
For us who were both very hurt and betrayed by our first spouses after long marriages, it was always going be a a commitment or nothing, as we don't believe in sex or living together outside marriage. We were married within 9 months of meeting. If I had met a man as has been described here, I would not have ever got serious, a man who refuses to commit yet is happy to use me for sex isn't for me. 
Its cruel to treat another like that, if you don't love her and refuse to give more, then end it and don't date again. Dont mess with peoples emotions and feelings.Stay single.


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## Satya

OP, personally I don't think there's anything wrong with you.
I suppose I have my own take, since I could very well live without my husband if circumstances deemed it to be fate. I could walk out this door tomorrow with all of my stuff and I know I'd be fine. I'd be sad, but fine.

I choose to remain with him because I love him and because our relationship is strong. I would never say, however, that I *can't *live without him.

Maybe there's more to this... maybe there is some deeper explanation from your perspective, but I look at it pretty simply.
There was once a time, when I was married to my ex-H, when I would have told anyone I could not live without him.
I have since become more mature to life, because of my experiences, and know now that I do not have such a need any longer, because I have a much more healthy sense of self now than I did then.
Perhaps your gf is not in the same boat as you, and has a genuine, constant need for you in her life. Maybe she is still healing from her own past pain. Whether her need for you is healthy or unhealthy depends on the level of her reaction. If she acknowledges it but doesn't make a big deal of it, that means her opinion differs but she is not punishing you for it. If she makes you wrong for not feeling the precise way she does, then I'd start to call it an unhealthy need.

My H knows that I'd be fine without him. I know he'd be fine without me. Losing one another is not a fear for either of us. It's hard to describe, but not having that fear makes our relationship somewhat impervious and resilient to emotional blackmail (not that either of us ascribe to it, just saying). There are many things I no longer fear in life, and being devoid of that fear means that no one can attempt to threaten me with it.


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## Diana7

Wolf1974 said:


> I think being crushed emotionally always brings out the risk vs reward thought processes. I don't know that I will ever leave that zone again and really don't want to.


Its SO worth it. 
I have been deeply hurt and/or betrayed by many in my life, not least by my first husband of 23 years, a parent who committed suicide, and a father who cheated on and betrayed my mother and us children. I probably had far more baggage than most. 

I am so glad that I didn't get those things stop me from trusting and hoping and loving and committing again. Much of life is a risk, we either stay in our self imposed prisons and live a cold lonely life, or we step out and enjoy the warmth and colour and freedom.The choice is ours. 

I have never regretted marrying my second husband of 11 years, in fact we have both helped each other to heal more. How sad if I had missed out on what I have now because of fear(because its all about fear).


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## FeministInPink

Diana7 said:


> Its SO worth it.
> I have been deeply hurt and/or betrayed by many in my life, not least by my first husband of 23 years, a parent who committed suicide, and a father who cheated on and betrayed my mother and us children. I probably had far more baggage than most.
> 
> I am so glad that I didn't get those things stop me from trusting and hoping and loving and committing again. Much of life is a risk, we either stay in our self imposed prisons and live a cold lonely life, or we step out and enjoy the warmth and colour and freedom.The choice is ours.
> 
> I have never regretted marrying my second husband of 11 years, in fact we have both helped each other to heal more. How sad if I had missed out on what I have now because of fear(because its all about fear).


Diana7, I wish I could love this post instead of just like it. I refuse to let past hurts keep me from living a full life, to keep me from trusting, hoping, and loving again. Nothing worth having comes without risk. I've been through the worst that life could throw at me... whatever else happens is a piece of cake compared to that. Well, maybe not. But I'm strong enough to take whatever disappointment and pain life throws at me, because the reward is so much greater than the risk.


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## Ynot

Diana7 said:


> I feel for all of you here who have these partners who are so half hearted in their commitment. If they dont want to commit, then why did they date you in the first place? Honestly, its a DECISION to commit, and I see it as they are using you.
> 
> Dating is a decision to commit? really? No, dating is exploring what you want and don't want. How else are you going to find out unless you look for. Maybe you blindly stumbled into a relationship with some one with similar wants and needs of your own, but most people actually have to go out an look for it.
> For us who were both very hurt and betrayed by our first spouses after long marriages, it was always going be a a commitment or nothing, as we don't believe in sex or living together outside marriage. We were married within 9 months of meeting. If I had met a man as has been described here, I would not have ever got serious, a man who refuses to commit yet is happy to use me for sex isn't for me.
> Its cruel to treat another like that, if you don't love her and refuse to give more, then end it and don't date again. Dont mess with peoples emotions and feelings.Stay single.


No, what is cruel is to think someone is using you because they won't commit to a relationship under your expectations


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## Ynot

OP, I think you (and others) err in describing yourselves as "broken". You aren't broken, you are changed. I think that that change comes from whatever happened to us and how we perceive it. If you had totally invested in your marriage and were left or cheated on, you might perceive your experience as betrayal. On the other hand another person may perceive the same situation as being unfulfilled or unappreciated or abandoned (as in my SO cheated because they didn't love me as I want to be loved). This may be the case with your GF. If she felt somewhat abandoned as opposed to feeling betrayed, she might be looking to feel the void of being abandoned, whereas you are looking to protect your wound of being betrayed.
I don't know which is a better way of looking at things. You see it as getting over a "childish" need to be loved (which you no longer believe in) by another, whereas she sees it as finding that true love (which she still believes in). 
As I type this I guess it comes down to realism vs idealism?
Personally I felt betrayal from my divorce. I had invested 110% into my marriage. Now I look at love as a temporary thing, because I know that is what it is. I have met women and men who feel the same way. I have also met women and men who are still on that quest. (Ironically, there appears to be some correlation to religious belief)


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## Hoosier

"Its sad that this relationship has to end _because he chooses not to risk_. It is incredibly selfish of him because I will be the one very hurt once this ends. Not him."

As for him chooseing not to risk. In my case it is not a matter of "choice" I just dont have that feeling.. The same if you are homosexual/heterosexual you are attacked to a certain gender, you dont pick that gender, you dont choose which gender appeals to you. He is not choosing to not "be in love with you" just what it is.

As for selfish of him, that makes me feel a bit guilty. In the case of my current gf, from day one, I told her how I was, I told her that I could only promise her what was now, more than once. She now wants more, if I dont give it to her she is going to be hurt, probably pretty badly. Oh, and I would be hurt to have to "slide someone else in" just not enough to make me change I guess.


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## Jessica38

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> Brief back ground then story. (look up Hoosier if you want the thread) 30 years married. in July 2011, my xw, upon my discovery of text messages. Literally packed two bags, walked five blocks and moved in with the OM. Divorced in 82 days, they married six months later, and remain married to this day. No contact since 2012. My three daughters, 26, 30, 32 and I remain close. Even tho one is 1200 miles away another is 1800 miles away. I hear from them nearly everyday and see them pretty often. I own my own business, and years of hard labor allow me a lot of flexability in my hours, time off. I have a great life! Many close friends, family, and not rich, but dont worry about money. Now my question:
> 
> In the five years I have been divorced, I have dated a few women, two of them long term, including my current gf who I have been seeing for two years. She is great. We are together 51 of 52 weekends. Her kids are out of the home as well. She and I enjoy the same tastes in music, same tastes in adventure, have traveled quite a bit, get along great. The problem is, at least a problem for her, is that I dont have the "cant do without her" feeling. (We get together on Wednesday nights during the week and then the weekend. Living 30 minutes apart.) I dont know if it is my age (57) but I remember a time when I just could not wait to see my wife, missed her a lot when we were apart, not there at all. With my gf I call/text her daily. But she wants more. I talked with her repeately when we first started dating, told her where I was, what my plans were. I havent changed. I wish I could have the feelings she desires, but dont think I would with anyone. Am I just broken?


You don't sound broken to me, but you do sound very independent without the desire for an interdependent relationship, which is what I'd need from a partner. It could be that you don't have this need with your gf or maybe you don't have this need at all. After 2 years though I think you'd know if you want to take it to the next level with her- and to me, that would mean an interdependent relationship in marriage. Sounds like she wants this from you and you simply don't. IMHO, she should let you know this and if you can't commit, cut you loose if she wants to be married again. But I'd encourage you to really ask yourself if you could see marriage (an interdependent relationship) with this woman, and if not, maybe it's time to let her go or be very honest with her that this is the most you're willing to give. Otherwise, it seems to me that you're leading her on.


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## Hoosier

FeministInPink said:


> And that's his intention, of course (the guy you're dating, not necessarily Hoosier). He refuses to become attached and refuses to take a risk because he doesn't want to get hurt (again). Protecting himself is more important than having a truly intimate relationship; a real relationship isn't worth the risk to him.



Again, I dont consciously say to myself, "dont get attached! dont get to close" its just where I am. I wish I could just be all about our relationship, all moon pie in love again, I would welcome that feeling.


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## FeministInPink

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> Again, I dont consciously say to myself, "dont get attached! dont get to close" its just where I am. I wish I could just be all about our relationship, all moon pie in love again, I would welcome that feeling.


Note: I was talking about her guy, not you.

Are you currently in IC, Hoosier? You may not be consciously saying it, but you may be saying it subconsciously. If you really want to feel that way about someone again, then why are you with the current GF when you admit that you don't feel that way about her? Something is holding you back from either moving forward with her, or from ending your relationship with her to get what you really want. And I don't think it's something consciously holding you back.


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## Hoosier

"I feel for all of you here who have these partners who are so half hearted in their commitment. If they dont want to commit, then why did they date you in the first place? "

Dating is a lot of different things to different people. Just because one does not want to get married or move in with someone, does not mean that they should therfore disqualify themselves from dating. It might surprise you to know that there are women who would very much want to date a man in just the same way. If you would have your way, then that woman, and I, would be sent to our homes, never to meet, because of what we seek is different than you. Hows that a good idea?

As long as both people are very upfront in what they are looking for, and communicate those desires frequently then no one should have a problem. Can those desires change, certainly, probably. Then it is up to the person to determin if the relationship is working for them. If not, get out. But dont be mad at the other person because they were who they said they were and didnt change. geeez


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## Hoosier

FeministInPink said:


> Note: I was talking about her guy, not you.
> 
> Are you currently in IC, Hoosier? You may not be consciously saying it, but you may be saying it subconsciously. If you really want to feel that way about someone again, then why are you with the current GF when you admit that you don't feel that way about her? Something is holding you back from either moving forward with her, or from ending your relationship with her to get what you really want. And I don't think it's something consciously holding you back.


No, I am not currently in IC. I realize that it is very likely that i am sub telling myself to hold back, not allowing myself to go there. I never said I WANT to feel that way, in fact I am quite HAPPY the way I am. It is not that I dont love her, I do, she is a great woman, we are great. I am very content with what we have. I gave 110% of myself to my marriage, and my family. My kids are on their own, doing well, I only have me to worry about, I really like that. I have time, attention, property to share with someone, I am a very generous man. But I took my vows very seriously, now that I have been released from them I am in no hurry to sign back up. 

FIP, I take no offense in your questions, and I hope you dont take any in my responses. I have followed your story on here for a long time. Just trying to be honest with my answers.


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## Jessica38

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> No, I am not currently in IC. I realize that it is very likely that i am sub telling myself to hold back, not allowing myself to go there. I never said I WANT to feel that way, in fact I am quite HAPPY the way I am. It is not that I dont love her, I do, she is a great woman, we are great. I am very content with what we have. I gave 110% of myself to my marriage, and my family. My kids are on their own, doing well, I only have me to worry about, I really like that. I have time, attention, property to share with someone, I am a very generous man. But I took my vows very seriously, now that I have been released from them I am in no hurry to sign back up.
> 
> FIP, I take no offense in your questions, and I hope you dont take any in my responses. I have followed your story on here for a long time. Just trying to be honest with my answers.


But the point is that your gf isn't content with what you have, which after 2 years, wouldn't work for me either. No fault on your end for dating, but it sounds to me like it's time to fish or cut bait, because she's telling you she wants/needs more, and in my mind, rightfully so. No way would this arrangement work for me with a man I love and after 2 years.


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## Hoosier

Jessica38 said:


> if not, maybe it's time to let her go or be very honest with her that this is the most you're willing to give. Otherwise, it seems to me that you're leading her on.


I have told her, many times, I will again.


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## FeministInPink

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> No, I am not currently in IC. I realize that it is very likely that i am sub telling myself to hold back, not allowing myself to go there. I never said I WANT to feel that way, in fact I am quite HAPPY the way I am. It is not that I dont love her, I do, she is a great woman, we are great. I am very content with what we have. I gave 110% of myself to my marriage, and my family. My kids are on their own, doing well, I only have me to worry about, I really like that. I have time, attention, property to share with someone, I am a very generous man. But I took my vows very seriously, now that I have been released from them I am in no hurry to sign back up.
> 
> FIP, I take no offense in your questions, and I hope you dont take any in my responses. I have followed your story on here for a long time. Just trying to be honest with my answers.


No offense taken in your answers, either, and honesty is always appreciated  

All due respect, you did say that you want to feel this way again. I quote:



Formally known as Hoosier said:


> Again, I dont consciously say to myself, "dont get attached! dont get to close" its just where I am. *I wish I could just be all about our relationship, all moon pie in love again, I would welcome that feeling.*


I can understand being in no hurry. I'm not in a hurry, either. My frustration with my not-boyfriend is that he refuses to even consider the _possibility_ of a LTR or getting married again. I'm not trying to drag him down to the justice of the peace or anything, I just want him to consider the possibility. Because I'm definitely not ready to get married again anytime soon.

It's almost as if he blames the failure of his marriage on the actual institution and act of getting married, even though he recognizes that he made a poor choice in his XW because he was crazy in love with her, there were red flags all over the place before the marriage that he chose to ignore, and once they were married he said that he was not as attentive as he could have been and she cheated. (Cliff notes version, obviously.) And it's like there's this block in his head or he has tunnel vision, that the way his former marriage turned out is the only possible outcome if he gets married again. And I'm thinking, dude, it doesn't have to be like that if you don't want to, if you make a better choice in partner the second time around, and you make better choices in how you are as a husband.


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## soccermom2three

I don't think you're broken. 

I don't believe in soul mates but I really think there is a feeling or connection when you find the right person. I never had that feeling of needing anyone until I met my husband, then I couldn't get enough of him. Why him, not any other guys I dated? They weren't jerks.


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## FeministInPink

Jessica38 said:


> But the point is that your gf isn't content with what you have, which after 2 years, wouldn't work for me either. No fault on your end for dating, but it sounds to me like it's time to fish or cut bait, because she's telling you she wants/needs more, and in my mind, rightfully so. No way would this arrangement work for me with a man I love and after 2 years.





Formally known as Hoosier said:


> I have told her, many times, I will again.


Women almost always hope they will be the woman who changes his mind, that she will be the one to soften his heart and he will come around.

If she hasn't already accepted that you have no intentions of changing, you may have to be the one to end it.

And next time, seek out a woman who is emotionally unavailable and wants the same thing that you want


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## Diana7

FeministInPink said:


> Diana7, I wish I could love this post instead of just like it. I refuse to let past hurts keep me from living a full life, to keep me from trusting, hoping, and loving again. Nothing worth having comes without risk. I've been through the worst that life could throw at me... whatever else happens is a piece of cake compared to that. Well, maybe not. But I'm strong enough to take whatever disappointment and pain life throws at me, because the reward is so much greater than the risk.


Thank you, and good for you. My brother has had 2 wives who cheated on him,and 2 divorces as well as the same parent issues that I had. He now has a really nice partner of a few years and is happy. Thank goodness he didn't build up those walls and imprison himself. :smile2:


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## Diana7

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> I have told her, many times, I will again.


Yet you are still with her.


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## Diana7

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> "I feel for all of you here who have these partners who are so half hearted in their commitment. If they dont want to commit, then why did they date you in the first place? "
> 
> Dating is a lot of different things to different people. Just because one does not want to get married or move in with someone, does not mean that they should therfore disqualify themselves from dating. It might surprise you to know that there are women who would very much want to date a man in just the same way. If you would have your way, then that woman, and I, would be sent to our homes, never to meet, because of what we seek is different than you. Hows that a good idea?
> 
> As long as both people are very upfront in what they are looking for, and communicate those desires frequently then no one should have a problem. Can those desires change, certainly, probably. Then it is up to the person to determin if the relationship is working for them. If not, get out. But dont be mad at the other person because they were who they said they were and didnt change. geeez


Yet its not working for you is it. This semi casual relationship.


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## Diana7

Ynot said:


> No, what is cruel is to think someone is using you because they won't commit to a relationship under your expectations


Most people in a long term relationship expect commitment of some sort. 
Rightly so.


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## Jessica38

Diana7 said:


> Yet you are still with her.


Because it works for the OP and he's content. It's really on her to end things at this point, but like FIP says, women want to believe they'll change the guy's mind. 

I think FIP nailed it- OP needs to find someone as independent as he is, who has no desire for an interdependent relationship. Easier said than done, I'm sure. It's painful to let go of a good thing and I've seen several of my friends (women) struggle to let go of someone who simply couldn't give them what they wanted. Ultimately, the OP needs to recognize that his gf is settling in this relationship- she wants more.


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## FeministInPink

Diana7 said:


> Thank you, and good for you. My brother has had 2 wives who cheated on him,and 2 divorces as well as the same parent issues that I had. He now has a really nice partner of a few years and is happy. Thank goodness he didn't build up those walls and imprison himself. :smile2:


I'm happy for him!

I think, why punish yourself and put yourself in this prison because _someone else _behaved poorly and betrayed you? YOU didn't do wrong, why are you punishing yourself and closing yourself off from something that could bring you so much joy and security and warmth and support? Life is hard enough as it is, you need to take happiness and love and revel in it when offered.


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## browser

Diana7 said:


> I am so glad that I didn't get those things stop me from trusting and hoping and loving and committing again. Much of life is a risk, we either stay in our self imposed prisons and live a cold lonely life, or we step out and enjoy the warmth and colour and freedom.The choice is ours.
> 
> I have never regretted marrying my second husband of 11 years, in fact we have both helped each other to heal more. How sad if I had missed out on what I have now because of fear(because its all about fear).


 @Diana7

You have an unrealistic and blatantly false that marriage somehow signifies a greater level of commitment than an exclusive relationship between two partners who live together, share their lives under the same roof and maybe have children together, who have decided against the often failed concept of marriage. Even the failure of your first marriage exposes the fallacy of your reasoning- marriage promises nothing, it's no greater commitment, people break their vows and promises all the time, the only difference is when a marriage fails you need to spend lots of money to get out of it. 

But I understand that you are trapped in a web that you have spun yourself, with yet more illogical and unreasonable beliefs, as you post here:



Diana7 said:


> For us who were both very hurt and betrayed by our first spouses after long marriages, it was always going be a a commitment or nothing, as we don't believe in sex or living together outside marriage.


Your old fashioned, illogical, and "all or nothing" (Marriage or nothing) beliefs make it much more likely that you will be under pressure to jump into the "prison" that marriages often become because one or both partners decide they like someone else better or the feelings they have for their spouse simply evaporate over time or whatever other multitude of reasons people suddenly realize they no longer want to be with the person they intended to spend the rest of their lives with.


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## browser

Ynot said:


> No, what is cruel is to think someone is using you because they won't commit to a relationship under your expectations


 @Ynot

It's not cruel for @Diana7 to think that marriage signifies a greater level of commitment nor is it cruel that she doesn't believe in sex outside of a marriage or that she honestly believes that a relationship that doesn't culminate in marriage is somehow inferior. It's not cruel that despite @Diana7 's first marriage crashed and burned along with the marriages of at least 2 of her siblings she still thinks the failed concept of marriage has some sort of validity to it. 

Heck, there are still some people who believe the earth is flat. That isn't cruel either. It's just.. sad.


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## bkyln309

i guess what gets me in my circumstance is he keeps telling me lets see where it leads. As if there is a possibility of things developing to something more. But honestly after 2 years, you should feel something, know something. If I gave him pause, I could understand but I have never cheated in any of my relationships and have been nothing but good to him. Its sad he cant let go enough to trust me and maybe feel something. I think he is a good guy at his core but a broken one too.

I put my self out there after my broken marriage. I guess I need to find someone willing to do the same. Its sad.


Hoosier: I do want to say I appreciate your honesty. This is really helping me to understand my guy as well. At least you are asking the question to yourself (or are self aware). I am not sure many men are doing that.


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## Ynot

browser said:


> @Ynot
> 
> It's not cruel for @Diana7 to think that marriage signifies a greater level of commitment nor is it cruel that she doesn't believe in sex outside of a marriage or that she honestly believes that a relationship that doesn't culminate in marriage is somehow inferior. It's not cruel that despite @Diana7 's first marriage crashed and burned along with the marriages of at least 2 of her siblings she still thinks the failed concept of marriage has some sort of validity to it.
> 
> Heck, there are still some people who believe the earth is flat. That isn't cruel either. It's just.. sad.


I agree with your conclusions and all of your post prior to that, but what I was specifically addressing was her idea that dating is a commitment. Even her follow up where she changed dating to relationship. As long as the OP has been honest, that is the only expectation one should have. At that point it becomes their decision to continue and not yours. She has this idea that someone somehow owes her if she commits, otherwise they are just "using" her


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## browser

Ynot said:


> She has this idea that someone somehow owes her if she commits, otherwise they are just "using" her


 @Diana7 appears to be speaking from fear and hurt, no surprise given how her first marriage ended.


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## Ynot

OP, the fact that you are asking yourself this question is a great thing. You have attained a level of self awareness that many never get to. You are in control of your life and you get to choose. A consequence of your choice may be that your GF decides to end it. At that point you still get to decide. You get to decide if she is worth it or not. Just as she has gotten to decide for herself. The only thing you owe anyone else is honesty, which is all that you should expect from anyone else.


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## Mr. Nail

I've read this thread too long and I'm seeing a lot of issues. People are using imprecise language to describe the emotions they feel. I saw LOVE, commitment, and secure. The one I keep looking for is Vulnerable. In a way I see Hoosiers girl saying I Can't be Secure with you because you aren't vulnerable to me. 

I'm sure it is more complicated than that and I do tend to focus on power in the relationship. Here are my thoughts on vulnerability. No relationship is without risk. Even you already admit that if this relationship ends you will be hurt. FIP is dancing around the difference between inter-dependency and codependency, which is really A healthy level of dependency vs. an unhealthy level of dependency. What you need to realize is that your wall is not effectively protecting you from dependence. And it really can't. You will always be dependent on something. 

I have a friend who is a self proclaimed Hermit. How can that statement be true? how can he be a Hermit, and have a friend? But he has many friends. Most of us see him on his terms, we don't visit him at his house. We don't pop in unexpectedly. But even with his self imposed distance he relies on other people. He gets happiness (quite a bit of it to judge by his demeanor) out of his interactions with groups of people. We all know that he could survive without us, but we remain friendly with him because we are rewarded emotionally for being around him. 

I do think a healthy relationship can be built with a limited amount of mutual dependence. Probably not with this particular woman.


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## Hoosier

Ynot said:


> OP, the fact that you are asking yourself this question is a great thing. You have attained a level of self awareness that many never get to. You are in control of your life and you get to choose. A consequence of your choice may be that your GF decides to end it. At that point you still get to decide. You get to decide if she is worth it or not. Just as she has gotten to decide for herself. The only thing you owe anyone else is honesty, which is all that you should expect from anyone else.


Exactly my thoughts....

I always allow that I may be wrong. but these are my thoughts.


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## Hoosier

Taking a second to thank everyone for their replies, those I agree with and those I dont, as I appreciate your time and effort.

Hoosier


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## Wolf1974

Diana7 said:


> Its SO worth it.
> I have been deeply hurt and/or betrayed by many in my life, not least by my first husband of 23 years, a parent who committed suicide, and a father who cheated on and betrayed my mother and us children. I probably had far more baggage than most.
> 
> I am so glad that I didn't get those things stop me from trusting and hoping and loving and committing again. Much of life is a risk, we either stay in our self imposed prisons and live a cold lonely life, or we step out and enjoy the warmth and colour and freedom.The choice is ours.
> 
> I have never regretted marrying my second husband of 11 years, in fact we have both helped each other to heal more. How sad if I had missed out on what I have now because of fear(because its all about fear).


This is great that you were able to process and move on. For many of us it's just not the same and never will be. We move forward just the same though and find life fulfilling in other ways. For some of us the "in love deep feeling blind trust and commitment" is a one time thing and when it's betrayed that opportunity is gone forever.


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## Wolf1974

Ynot said:


> OP, I think you (and others) err in describing yourselves as "broken". You aren't broken, you are *changed*. I think that that change comes from whatever happened to us and how we perceive it. If you had totally invested in your marriage and were left or cheated on, you might perceive your experience as betrayal. On the other hand another person may perceive the same situation as being unfulfilled or unappreciated or abandoned (as in my SO cheated because they didn't love me as I want to be loved). This may be the case with your GF. If she felt somewhat abandoned as opposed to feeling betrayed, she might be looking to feel the void of being abandoned, whereas you are looking to protect your wound of being betrayed.
> I don't know which is a better way of looking at things. You see it as getting over a "childish" need to be loved (which you no longer believe in) by another, whereas she sees it as finding that true love (which she still believes in).
> As I type this I guess it comes down to realism vs idealism?
> Personally I felt betrayal from my divorce. I had invested 110% into my marriage. Now I look at love as a temporary thing, because I know that is what it is. I have met women and men who feel the same way. I have also met women and men who are still on that quest. (Ironically, there appears to be some correlation to religious belief)


This exactly. I am not broken but what has happend to me has radically changed my view on things like love, commitment, marriage and relationships. And honestly most of those changes are very good. I am very different from the man who lived all things for his wife.


----------



## Wolf1974

bkyln309 said:


> i guess what gets me in my circumstance is he keeps telling me lets see where it leads. As if there is a possibility of things developing to something more. But honestly after 2 years, you should feel *something's ing, know something.* If I gave him pause, I could understand but I have never cheated in any of my relationships and have been nothing but good to him. Its sad he cant let go enough to trust me and maybe feel something. I think he is a good guy at his core but a broken one too.
> 
> I put my self out there after my broken marriage. I guess I need to find someone willing to do the same. Its sad.
> 
> 
> Hoosier: I do want to say I appreciate your honesty. This is really helping me to understand my guy as well. At least you are asking the question to yourself (or are self aware). I am not sure many men are doing that.


what is it you would like him to know?

I ask because I know if I were ever to take the marriage plunge again it would take years and years of dating to get there. 2 years In the grand scheme doesn't seem like long at all


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## bkyln309

I do want to thank you all for sharing. This has been one of the most enlightening threads in a long time. You cannot feel compassion for someone unless you understand where they are coming from. You all have shed some light on things.


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## bkyln309

Wolf1974 said:


> what is it you would like him to know?
> 
> I ask because I know if I were ever to take the marriage plunge again it would take years and years of dating to get there. 2 years In the grand scheme doesn't seem like long at all


First of all, I am not looking to get married or live together. But I think I would want him to know that he loves me, that there is a future or some greater committment to work towards. I have smaller children and I want to know he is going to be more involved with them down the road. 

He is very out of touch with his emotions which he readily admits. He tells me he doesnt know why but since the divorce, he is emotionally disconnected. His words. I want him to be able to tell me he loves me and mean it. I want to meet his family (i have met one daughter and one cousin). In fairness to him, both our families live out of State. And vacation together.

I feel we live two different lives that come together every other weekend when the kids are gone and we are both in town.


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## FeministInPink

Mr. Nail said:


> I've read this thread too long and I'm seeing a lot of issues. People are using imprecise language to describe the emotions they feel. I saw LOVE, commitment, and secure. The one I keep looking for is Vulnerable. In a way I see Hoosiers girl saying I Can't be Secure with you because you aren't vulnerable to me.
> 
> I'm sure it is more complicated than that and I do tend to focus on power in the relationship. Here are my thoughts on vulnerability. No relationship is without risk. Even you already admit that if this relationship ends you will be hurt. FIP is dancing around the difference between inter-dependency and codependency, which is really A healthy level of dependency vs. an unhealthy level of dependency. What you need to realize is that your wall is not effectively protecting you from dependence. And it really can't. You will always be dependent on something.
> 
> I have a friend who is a self proclaimed Hermit. How can that statement be true? how can he be a Hermit, and have a friend? But he has many friends. Most of us see him on his terms, we don't visit him at his house. We don't pop in unexpectedly. But even with his self imposed distance he relies on other people. He gets happiness (quite a bit of it to judge by his demeanor) out of his interactions with groups of people. We all know that he could survive without us, but we remain friendly with him because we are rewarded emotionally for being around him.
> 
> I do think a healthy relationship can be built with a limited amount of mutual dependence. Probably not with this particular woman.


I would dance less and be more direct, but I'm still learning to tell the difference and what that means in theory versus practice.


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## Wolf1974

bkyln309 said:


> First of all, I am not looking to get married or live together. But I think I would want him to know that he loves me, that there is a future or some greater committment to work towards. I have smaller children and I want to know he is going to be more involved with them down the road.
> 
> He is very out of touch with his emotions which he readily admits. He tells me he doesnt know why but since the divorce, he is emotionally disconnected. His words. I want him to be able to tell me he loves me and mean it. I want to meet his family (i have met one daughter and one cousin). In fairness to him, both our families live out of State. And vacation together.
> 
> I feel we live two different lives that come together every other weekend when the kids are gone and we are both in town.


Might be just be that your individual timelines aren't on the same page, I would think after 2 years he would know if he loved you or not though.


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## bkyln309

@;


Wolf1974 said:


> Might be just be that your individual timelines aren't on the same page, I would think after 2 years he would know if he loved you or not though.



I stopped saying it to him altogether. If he wants those words, he is going to have to initiate them again.


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## FeministInPink

*Re: Falling &quot;IN LOVE&quot; again*



bkyln309 said:


> @;
> 
> 
> I stopped saying it to him altogether. If he wants those words, he is going to have to initiate them again.


I never said it to Real Estate, because I knew he wasn't ready. He kind of forced my hand with our conversation/fight last week, and I said it, but he's not getting it from me again, not until we get on the same page, if that ever happens.

ETA: I didn't say it to him, not until last week.


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## Ynot

I think it is all a matter of perspective still. To some, love might encompass "not wanting to get married or live together". But to some one else it might be the all-in commitment that comes with marriage.

To anyone who feels betrayal, they may still be equating love with marriage and are not willing to go there again. OTOH, those who have felt abandonment may not make that same equivocation

I cared a great deal for every woman I have had a relationship with post divorce. But that doesn't mean I am willing to take the plunge of marriage ever again.


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## Ynot

There also seems to be a divide between men and women on this issue. I guess my thought on that are that if women are willing to hurt men who love them (not accusing anybody in particular - it is just that women file the majority of divorces and often the men they leave behind are clueless as to what is coming), then women should also be willing to accept that many of those same men are not going to allow themselves to be burned twice.


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## FeministInPink

Ynot said:


> There also seems to be a divide between men and women on this issue. I guess my thought on that are that if women are willing to hurt men who love them (not accusing anybody in particular - it is just that women file the majority of divorces and often the men they leave behind are clueless as to what is coming), then women should also be willing to accept that many of those same men are not going to allow themselves to be burned twice.


The problem here is that the women who are suffering the consequences of the men being burned are not the women who burned the men in the first place! I am suffering the consequences of Real Estate's betrayal by his XW, when I, by my very nature would never do what she did to him. I couldn't find it in myself to lie to and cheat on someone that I love. And yet I am the one suffering the consequences of what someone else did. I expect @bklyn309 is in the same boat.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Ynot

FeministInPink said:


> The problem here is that the women who are suffering the consequences of the men being burned are not the women who burned the men in the first place! I am suffering the consequences of Real Estate's betrayal by his XW, when I, by my very nature would never do what she did to him. I couldn't find it in myself to lie to and cheat on someone that I love. And yet I am the one suffering the consequences of what someone else did. I expect @bklyn309 is in the same boat.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


I never said life was fair. I am just pointing out a reality. It is a sad side effect of female empowerment. And FTR that doesn't mean I am opposed to female empowerment. But when said empowerment happens to only one gender, while the other is still expected to abide by past conventions, what else do you expect?
I am on the opposite side. I never wanted to get divorced. I totally and completely was invested in my marriage and my family. I didn't have a choice though. She decided to walk and that was that. While I have gotten over the bitterness and anger of being betrayed, I have also learned a lesson. That lesson being that emotions are temporary and subject to change. Am I "detached from my emotions" or just protecting myself? If you put your hand in the fire the second time, after getting severe burns the first time, who is to blame?


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## Satya

I can't for the life of me find it, but I think someone once posted a link to a study/article showing that men (on average) take a lot longer to heal from betrayal than women.


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## Ynot

FIP, wouldn't you say that your reaction to your current situation has been largely shaped by your experiences in your past relationships? Does it not make sense, then that he would be viewing things through his own prism of experience and reacting accordingly? I think when we are young and do not know anywhere near as much as we do when we are older, those experiences are either more closely in parallel with each other or are simply not as important to us. When we are young we see our whole life ahead of us, and never stop to consider that some day they will end. The days last forever. As we age, we begin to see the deadlines that are approaching, perhaps it is the ability to have a child for women, the inability to compete for men, or beyond that the end of our lives. Patience is an affordable luxury when we are young, where as it becomes an unacceptable expense as we age?


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## FeministInPink

@Ynot Yes, absolutely... And that is one of the things that gives us stumbling blocks and baggage to deal with. He's said on more than one occasion that this would all be different if we met 10 yrs ago (the fact that we were both married 10 yrs ago, or close to it), that he probably would have been head over heels and all in with me. And then I point out that it wouldn't have worked out for us if we had met 10 years ago, because he's told me all the ways that he wasn't a good partner in the days before his divorce. I love him for the man he is now, and he's that man now because of those experiences--the same way I am different now myself.

I will disagree with you regarding the patience thing, though--I am MUCH more patient now than I was in my youth, and I don't see that as a bad thing.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Wolf1974

FeministInPink said:


> @Ynot Yes, absolutely... And that is one of the things that gives us stumbling blocks and baggage to deal with. He's said on more than one occasion that this would all be different if we met 10 yrs ago (the fact that we were both married 10 yrs ago, or close to it), *that he probably would have been head over heels and all in with me.* And then I point out that it wouldn't have worked out for us if we had met 10 years ago, because he's told me all the ways that he wasn't a good partner in the days before his divorce. I love him for the man he is now, and he's that man now because of those experiences--the same way I am different now myself.
> 
> I will disagree with you regarding the patience thing, though--I am MUCH more patient now than I was in my youth, and I don't see that as a bad thing.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Wow this is very close to home. I have told my GF many times if I could do one thing, one do over in life, it would be to go back in time and meet a girl like her vs my x wife. I have no doubt we would be happily married forever were that the case :smthumbup:


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## coolgal

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> Brief back ground then story. (look up Hoosier if you want the thread) 30 years married. in July 2011, my xw, upon my discovery of text messages. Literally packed two bags, walked five blocks and moved in with the OM. Divorced in 82 days, they married six months later, and remain married to this day. No contact since 2012. My three daughters, 26, 30, 32 and I remain close. Even tho one is 1200 miles away another is 1800 miles away. I hear from them nearly everyday and see them pretty often. I own my own business, and years of hard labor allow me a lot of flexability in my hours, time off. I have a great life! Many close friends, family, and not rich, but dont worry about money. Now my question:
> 
> In the five years I have been divorced, I have dated a few women, two of them long term, including my current gf who I have been seeing for two years. She is great. We are together 51 of 52 weekends. Her kids are out of the home as well. She and I enjoy the same tastes in music, same tastes in adventure, have traveled quite a bit, get along great. The problem is, at least a problem for her, is that I dont have the "cant do without her" feeling. (We get together on Wednesday nights during the week and then the weekend. Living 30 minutes apart.) I dont know if it is my age (57) but I remember a time when I just could not wait to see my wife, missed her a lot when we were apart, not there at all. With my gf I call/text her daily. But she wants more. I talked with her repeately when we first started dating, told her where I was, what my plans were. I havent changed. I wish I could have the feelings she desires, but dont think I would with anyone. Am I just broken?


I feel u better can understand ur gf means she is having the feelings for you which u had for ur wife n it's good sign for u that u got someone who is like u so u should be there for her, women needs assurance n needs someone who gives importance to her n be there for her in any situation so u should not neglect her like this then she will feel bad bcs as u felt bcs of ur wife n trust me all r not the same people like ur wife 

Sent from my Lenovo A6020a46 using Tapatalk


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## coolgal

Diana7 said:


> Its SO worth it.
> I have been deeply hurt and/or betrayed by many in my life, not least by my first husband of 23 years, a parent who committed suicide, and a father who cheated on and betrayed my mother and us children. I probably had far more baggage than most.
> 
> I am so glad that I didn't get those things stop me from trusting and hoping and loving and committing again. Much of life is a risk, we either stay in our self imposed prisons and live a cold lonely life, or we step out and enjoy the warmth and colour and freedom.The choice is ours.
> 
> I have never regretted marrying my second husband of 11 years, in fact we have both helped each other to heal more. How sad if I had missed out on what I have now because of fear(because its all about fear).


I think it's good way to like at life n we should learn from our past n be positive n confident in present n be positive for future

Sent from my Lenovo A6020a46 using Tapatalk


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## coolgal

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> "Its sad that this relationship has to end _because he chooses not to risk_. It is incredibly selfish of him because I will be the one very hurt once this ends. Not him."
> 
> As for him chooseing not to risk. In my case it is not a matter of "choice" I just dont have that feeling.. The same if you are homosexual/heterosexual you are attacked to a certain gender, you dont pick that gender, you dont choose which gender appeals to you. He is not choosing to not "be in love with you" just what it is.
> 
> As for selfish of him, that makes me feel a bit guilty. In the case of my current gf, from day one, I told her how I was, I told her that I could only promise her what was now, more than once. She now wants more, if I dont give it to her she is going to be hurt, probably pretty badly. Oh, and I would be hurt to have to "slide someone else in" just not enough to make me change I guess.


Ur gf needs ur love, commitment n assurance n u r worried bcs of ur past experience but just be there for her u will be happy n she will also be happy it's not wrong to fulfill her expectations

Sent from my Lenovo A6020a46 using Tapatalk


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## Hope Shimmers

Ynot said:


> OP, the fact that you are asking yourself this question is a great thing. You have attained a level of self awareness that many never get to. You are in control of your life and you get to choose. A consequence of your choice may be that your GF decides to end it. *At that point you still get to decide. *You get to decide if she is worth it or not. Just as she has gotten to decide for herself. The only thing you owe anyone else is honesty, which is all that you should expect from anyone else.


No, I don't agree with the bolded. At this point SHE has decided. That is a consequence of your (general your) decision to not commit. When she decides to end it because she's not getting her needs met, the decision is hers and out of your hands.

Hoosier, I don't think this debate is about marriage vs living together/commitment. I honestly think in your case it's about the probable fact that she isn't the one for you. I believe that there is someone out there who will put you right back into that seat where you want to commit, whether that means marriage or living together or whatever. But, you won't want to let her go. Just because you got burned once, your head might not be in the game yet. But once your heart heals, you can't hold it back. You can engage your head to try to build walls, which is what I think FIP's Real Estate is doing. But in the long run, the heart rules.

You have told your girlfriend of 2 years that you don't feel the way she wants you to feel. If that is honest, then you will be okay when she walks away. Because she will. Right now she is likely biding her time, contemplating moving on. She will.

Even after the hurt, I still believe in love. I believe in two people being intertwined, both physically and emotionally. So it didn't work this last time around for me. I blame him mostly but also myself, because after some time I believe I miscalculated love for addiction and a need to not fail. That's not what love is, and I knew it.


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## Adelais

Regarding you situation, FKAH, the old saying, "Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free" comes to mind. If you were not getting your needs met on a regular basis, would you find yourself wanting to make a commitment to her so you could get "it"?

Or it could be that you have built up an emotional wall due to the past hurt of your cheating XW. How would you feel if she said she was going to break up with you if you don't make a commitment in a given amount of time?


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## 2ntnuf

I didn't read the whole thread. I read a few posts on the first page, along with the opening post. I think it is pretty normal for those who have been hurt badly to be this way. We can't go back to loving the way we used to do. Even my therapist told me that we love everyone differently. 

So, I think the blinders have come off. You have grown up and are less able to live in denial. I call it denial because I truly think it is. When we love that hard, that we can't think of anything else, or we hurt inside when we are not with the person, it is a belief that we have in things which are not real. 

We love someone who is not real. In reality, the person we love is not the person in our mind. We have made up or filled in the blanks and believe our own dreams whole-heartedly. We place that person on a pedestal and they become more than they ever were.

I think it's dangerous in a few ways. One way is they can never live up to the person we love in our mind. We think they are that person, but they will soon realize they are not the one loved and will feel disconnected, rejected, and never enough for us. They will come to believe we don't love them at all.

I think we set ourselves up to rug sweep and become a doormat when we feel this type of obsessive love. I think we will cater to them in ways they will find cause them to lose respect for us. I think we will cater because we subconsciously want them to live up to that woman we love in our mind. 

I think it is best to love the woman for who she is in real life. Be dissatisfied with who she is in real life and work through those feelings with her. Allow her to be dissatisfied with us and work through those issues. Do all of those things in real time with compassion, healthy communication and loving compromise, and you will love each other for the imperfect humans you are, not those dreams in your head.

The other thing that bothers me a little is, I feel like a woman who says these things wants the ability to control you by your emotions. That frightens me because I can be controlled by my love, guilt, fears, and desire for joy. I think you need to have a talk with someone knowledgeable in these ideas and with your girlfriend, love interest, etc. 

I don't want to be controlled. I doubt you do. I don't know any woman who wants to be controlled. 

Random thoughts on this. I don't mean for them to cause you issues. They are just what came up for me when I read your opening post.


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## arbitrator

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> Brief back ground then story. (look up Hoosier if you want the thread) 30 years married. in July 2011, my xw, upon my discovery of text messages. Literally packed two bags, walked five blocks and moved in with the OM. Divorced in 82 days, they married six months later, and remain married to this day. No contact since 2012. My three daughters, 26, 30, 32 and I remain close. Even tho one is 1200 miles away another is 1800 miles away. I hear from them nearly everyday and see them pretty often. I own my own business, and years of hard labor allow me a lot of flexability in my hours, time off. I have a great life! Many close friends, family, and not rich, but dont worry about money. Now my question:
> 
> In the five years I have been divorced, I have dated a few women, two of them long term, including my current gf who I have been seeing for two years. She is great. We are together 51 of 52 weekends. Her kids are out of the home as well. She and I enjoy the same tastes in music, same tastes in adventure, have traveled quite a bit, get along great. The problem is, at least a problem for her, is that I dont have the "cant do without her" feeling. (We get together on Wednesday nights during the week and then the weekend. Living 30 minutes apart.) I dont know if it is my age (57) but I remember a time when I just could not wait to see my wife, missed her a lot when we were apart, not there at all. With my gf I call/text her daily. But she wants more. I talked with her repeately when we first started dating, told her where I was, what my plans were. I havent changed. I wish I could have the feelings she desires, but dont think I would with anyone. Am I just broken?


*Having had my heart broken twice by my XW's heartless infidelity, whenever the woman who next comes along that turns Ol' Arb's head, I greatly surmise that I'll probably be the very same way as you are now!

I've found that while you still longingly yearn for love, you basically just become somewhat numb to it!*


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## Ynot

Hope Shimmers said:


> No, I don't agree with the bolded. At this point SHE has decided. That is a consequence of your (general your) decision to not commit. When she decides to end it because she's not getting her needs met, the decision is hers and out of your hands.
> 
> Hoosier, I don't think this debate is about marriage vs living together/commitment. I honestly think in your case it's about the probable fact that she isn't the one for you. I believe that there is someone out there who will put you right back into that seat where you want to commit, whether that means marriage or living together or whatever. But, you won't want to let her go. Just because you got burned once, your head might not be in the game yet. But once your heart heals, you can't hold it back. You can engage your head to try to build walls, which is what I think FIP's Real Estate is doing. But in the long run, the heart rules.
> 
> You have told your girlfriend of 2 years that you don't feel the way she wants you to feel. If that is honest, then you will be okay when she walks away. Because she will. Right now she is likely biding her time, contemplating moving on. She will.
> 
> Even after the hurt, I still believe in love. I believe in two people being intertwined, both physically and emotionally. So it didn't work this last time around for me. I blame him mostly but also myself, because after some time I believe I miscalculated love for addiction and a need to not fail. That's not what love is, and I knew it.


What is there to disagree with? He still gets to decide. He gets to decide whether she was worth it or not. That doesn't mean she has to change her mind. But say he decided she was worth it but it is too late for THIS relationship. Perhaps the next time he feels that way he will decide to open up sooner to prevent losing her. We always have a choice, regardless of how things end up. It is called learning a lesson


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## Hope Shimmers

Ynot said:


> What is there to disagree with? He still gets to decide. He gets to decide whether she was worth it or not. That doesn't mean she has to change her mind. But say he decided she was worth it but it is too late for THIS relationship. Perhaps the next time he feels that way he will decide to open up sooner to prevent losing her. We always have a choice, regardless of how things end up. It is called learning a lesson


Sure, he can decide if she was worth it. I just meant he won't necessarily get to decide he suddenly wants to be with her more than anything and have that happen. 

I don't know, maybe it's me, but I just haven't had that many relationships where I have felt head over heels in love and that I wanted nothing more than to be with this person. Two such relationships, actually (and my marriage was not one of them). So this is just me and my situation, but I wouldn't (especially at my age) be so sure that another one was going to come along. Then again, those feelings WERE there for me in those 2 relationships, and that doesn't seem to be the case for the OP.


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## Ynot

Hope Shimmers said:


> Sure, he can decide if she was worth it. I just meant he won't necessarily get to decide he suddenly wants to be with her more than anything and have that happen.
> 
> I don't know, maybe it's me, but I just haven't had that many relationships where I have felt head over heels in love and that I wanted nothing more than to be with this person. Two such relationships, actually (and my marriage was not one of them). So this is just me and my situation, but I wouldn't (especially at my age) be so sure that another one was going to come along. Then again, those feelings WERE there for me in those 2 relationships, and that doesn't seem to be the case for the OP.


He might decide exactly that, but it may be too late. Another lesson learned.


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## Diana7

Satya said:


> I can't for the life of me find it, but I think someone once posted a link to a study/article showing that men (on average) take a lot longer to heal from betrayal than women.


THat wasn't so in our case. It was several years before I felt ready to even think of another men, whereas my now husband and I met and married very soon after his marriage ended. 

Its a decision to trust and commit again.


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## 2ntnuf

I think trust is earned. I think we can decide to commit.


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## RandomDude

My girlfriend recently told me she loves me, I responded with a song...






... so I got away with not returning it ^_^


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## Hope Shimmers

RandomDude said:


> My girlfriend recently told me she loves me, I responded with a song...
> 
> ... so I got away with not returning it ^_^


Hmmm... if my guy responded like that to me, he would not hear the "I love you" again. 

But maybe that was the point?


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## RandomDude

Ah, but did he sing? 

Anyway that was a month ago, girlfriend knew from the start that I was going to need some time, and her patience is slowly paying off since I sang this for her just yesterday, one month after she confessed her love:






Ice takes time to melt after all 
Still melting... slowly -.-


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## Hope Shimmers

He did sing, actually. 

_Perched on the front step
in the darkness
Feeling the rain
on my face
Remembering the pain
but also the joy when you sang
What A Wonderful World
to this woman far away
as the waves crashed below you
at the end of your day._

It doesn't have to be those exact three words. I totally agree. But you showed it by singing that song to her. Good on you.

But you might want to consider using the three words one day soon.


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## Hoosier

Ynot said:


> He might decide exactly that, but it may be too late. Another lesson learned.


I realize that she may walk at any time. I know I would miss her, we have done tons of fun things together, we are a lot a like, but the thought does not scare me (maybe it should). It would and is her choice to be together. But wonder how long she will want to continue. 

As for having the "Love" emotions. That is why I started this thread. I dont feel them, and I am a feeling type of guy. That part of me is just kind of hollow. I am not upset that it doesnt happen, not really at all, but long term relationships kinda call for it I am finding out.


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## Ynot

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> I realize that she may walk at any time. I know I would miss her, we have done tons of fun things together, we are a lot a like, but the thought does not scare me (maybe it should). It would and is her choice to be together. But wonder how long she will want to continue.
> 
> As for having the "Love" emotions. That is why I started this thread. I dont feel them, and I am a feeling type of guy. That part of me is just kind of hollow. I am not upset that it doesnt happen, not really at all, but long term relationships kinda call for it I am finding out.


I hear you brother. I am in that same boat. I will enjoy the company, but I am not interested in losing myself again in a relationship. Call it hollow, call it emotional detachment, call it whatever you like. But this is me, now. I lost myself before. Now I have found me, I don't intend to lose me again.
I don't think it is so much that you don't have "love" emotions, it is just that they are directed at yourself now and not some one else. That isn't a bad thing. In fact I wish more people would understand that. Their idea of "love" is to give up who you are in order to commit to them. I have just started learning to commit to myself (for probably the first time in my life) I have no intention of redirecting that commitment to someone else.
Perhaps in time, it may happen. Once I have found my true self. But in the meantime, I will just be honest with everyone else.


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## gypsytrader777

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> Brief back ground then story. (look up Hoosier if you want the thread) 30 years married. in July 2011, my xw, upon my discovery of text messages. Literally packed two bags, walked five blocks and moved in with the OM. Divorced in 82 days, they married six months later, and remain married to this day. No contact since 2012. My three daughters, 26, 30, 32 and I remain close. Even tho one is 1200 miles away another is 1800 miles away. I hear from them nearly everyday and see them pretty often. I own my own business, and years of hard labor allow me a lot of flexability in my hours, time off. I have a great life! Many close friends, family, and not rich, but dont worry about money. Now my question:
> 
> In the five years I have been divorced, I have dated a few women, two of them long term, including my current gf who I have been seeing for two years. She is great. We are together 51 of 52 weekends. Her kids are out of the home as well. She and I enjoy the same tastes in music, same tastes in adventure, have traveled quite a bit, get along great. The problem is, at least a problem for her, is that I dont have the "cant do without her" feeling. (We get together on Wednesday nights during the week and then the weekend. Living 30 minutes apart.) I dont know if it is my age (57) but I remember a time when I just could not wait to see my wife, missed her a lot when we were apart, not there at all. With my gf I call/text her daily. But she wants more. I talked with her repeately when we first started dating, told her where I was, what my plans were. I havent changed. I wish I could have the feelings she desires, but dont think I would with anyone. Am I just broken?



Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


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## bkyln309

I see a pattern in the men posting here. All are midlife, and all have not wanted the divorce. So heartbreak and disappointment have hardened things for you all. 

I was talking about this thread to a man I know who is single in his late forties. He has been through quite abit with his exes but never married. He suggested there is a difference between being guarded and emotionally unattached. He says he is guarded and would love to feel that way again but life is too short to do crazy again. He also says marriage is not off the table but not a priority either. 

My question is: Are you just guarded with your feelings still willing to go there with the right person or do you think you are forever emotionally detached from feeling love again? Is it the same thing to you? Does time with the person change it from guarded to free to feel or it is only the person themselves? Do you not care whether you feel in love again? What is the most important goal of having a relationship with someone if you dont have in love feelings for them?


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## Hoosier

bkyln309 said:


> I see a pattern in the men posting here. All are midlife, and all have not wanted the divorce. So heartbreak and disappointment have hardened things for you all.
> 
> I was talking about this thread to a man I know who is single in his late forties. He has been through quite abit with his exes but never married. He suggested there is a difference between being guarded and emotionally unattached. He says he is guarded and would love to feel that way again but life is too short to do crazy again. He also says marriage is not off the table but not a priority either.
> 
> My question is: Are you just guarded with your feelings still willing to go there with the right person or do you think you are forever emotionally detached from feeling love again? Is it the same thing to you? Does time with the person change it from guarded to free to feel or it is only the person themselves? Do you not care whether you feel in love again? What is the most important goal of having a relationship with someone if you dont have in love feelings for them?


Speaking for myself, I believe I may forever be detached. I dont know if I care if I feel in love again. I have a great life, answer really to no one, dont feel like I am missing anything by not being in a cohabitational arrangment. As for my goal in relationship, it is pretty much what I have, and maybe thats why I am not interested in changing. I have companionship, companionship that I truly enjoy, the sex is plentiful and awesome, and I have my alone time which I chearish so much. I would like to keep it here, but the non committment is starting to cause its problems.


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## Ynot

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> Speaking for myself, I believe I may forever be detached. I dont know if I care if I feel in love again. I have a great life, answer really to no one, dont feel like I am missing anything by not being in a cohabitational arrangment. As for my goal in relationship, it is pretty much what I have, and maybe thats why I am not interested in changing. I have companionship, companionship that I truly enjoy, the sex is plentiful and awesome, and I have my alone time which I chearish so much. I would like to keep it here, but the non committment is starting to cause its problems.


While you didn't mention it, is there not also some element of knowing that you each have to work at things to keep it going rather than falling into the pattern of many marriages in which the "work" stops because of all the assumptions and expectations that come from the "commitment" of marriage?


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## browser

bkyln309 said:


> I see a pattern in the men posting here. All are midlife, and all have not wanted the divorce. So heartbreak and disappointment have hardened things for you all.


I didn't want the divorce at first. She started it, recanted but I was too far gone and finished it. 



bkyln309 said:


> He suggested there is a difference between being guarded and emotionally unattached.


It's a matter of degree.



bkyln309 said:


> He also says marriage is not off the table


Then he is destined to making the same mistakes over and over again despite the commonly accepted definition of insanity. 



bkyln309 said:


> Are you just guarded with your feelings still willing to go there with the right person or do you think you are forever emotionally detached from feeling love again?


We're together 5 years. Second longest relationship of my life, second only to my 18 year failed marriage. She says I used to be emotionally detached but I've made great strides. I think I'm still emotionally detached and I haven't made great strides and don't really intend to change all that much and I tell her that all the time to which she just smiles and gives a knowing smile and a nod for whatever that's worth. I'll probably hold my emotional cards close to my vest until they seal my casket. Too little to gain, too much to lose. 



bkyln309 said:


> Does time with the person change it from guarded to free to feel or it is only the person themselves? Do you not care whether you feel in love again? What is the most important goal of having a relationship with someone if you dont have in love feelings for them?


Time together always helps to some degree. How much change depends on the person and their capabilities and willingness to be vulnerable. Do I care how much further in love or how open I get? No, not really although again my GF would probably disagree and say I really am not in touch with myself. 

My goals in a relationship are to have a close female friend with whom I can be close but not too close and share my thoughts fears and feelings (to some extent) and do to all sorts of fun activities with and have sex with, who I can care for and who can care for me, while maintaining a safe emotional distance so if things go south I can bail without too much collateral damage.


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## Hope Shimmers

browser said:


> We're together 5 years. Second longest relationship of my life, second only to my 18 year failed marriage. She says I used to be emotionally detached but I've made great strides. I think I'm still emotionally detached and I haven't made great strides and don't really intend to change all that much and I tell her that all the time to which she just smiles and gives a knowing smile and a nod for whatever that's worth. I'll probably hold my emotional cards close to my vest until they seal my casket. Too little to gain, too much to lose.





browser said:


> My goals in a relationship are to have a close female friend with whom I can be close but not too close and share my thoughts fears and feelings (to some extent) and do to all sorts of fun activities with and have sex with, who I can care for and who can care for me, while maintaining a safe emotional distance so if things go south I can bail without too much collateral damage.


I just don't understand how these men can be so analytical and clinical and detached. Were you really hurt that bad that you could never risk it again?

Don't take this personally, browser, please -- because obviously I don't know you. But why is your girlfriend with you? I can only assume (from what you've said) that she wants more. Why would she settle for less, for all this time? I personally have been in love and devastated, not all that long ago, and I want that "in love" emotional closeness more than anything! I just honestly don't get it. I wouldn't be with you (or the others who have posted similarly to you) because I would be able to sense that very soon into the relationship.

Or maybe you are being more stoic here on the forum than you actually are? Your girlfriend indicated that you made great strides in terms of not being emotionally detached, but you denied it. Maybe you are in denial about it? Honestly, this is just curiosity on my part because I don't understand how men can operate like this, or why they would even want to.


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## browser

Hope Shimmers said:


> I just don't understand how these men can be so analytical and clinical and detached. Were you really hurt that bad that you could never risk it again?


Yes. I thought that was obvious. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> Don't take this personally, browser, please -- because obviously I don't know you. But why is your girlfriend with you?


I have a big penis and I know how to use it.



Hope Shimmers said:


> I can only assume (from what you've said) that she wants more. Why would she settle for less, for all this time? I personally have been in love and devastated, not all that long ago, and I want that "in love" emotional closeness more than anything! I just honestly don't get it. I wouldn't be with you (or the others who have posted similarly to you) because I would be able to sense that very soon into the relationship.


She says the way I was when we first met, wasn't too promising. But she saw signs so she stuck it out and it was worth it. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> Or maybe you are being more stoic here on the forum than you actually are? Your girlfriend indicated that you made great strides in terms of not being emotionally detached, but you denied it. Maybe you are in denial about it? Honestly, this is just curiosity on my part because I don't understand how men can operate like this, or why they would even want to.


My GF would say that yes, this is the case. I was in therapy for a year or so and I worked through a bunch of stuff, and she said I completely changed and progressed during that time and I am totally different than I was when we first met. I just don't see it but she insists. She wasn't happy to see me quit therapy but I had enough for now.


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## Hope Shimmers

Interesting. Thanks for the honest reply!

So if she walked away tomorrow, you would not be devastated?

I would definitely take the risk to have that "in love" feeling again. No risks, no rewards (although I guess if you - general you - are okay with things the way they are, the 'no rewards' part might not be true).

Maybe it's a gender thing.



browser said:


> I have a big penis and I know how to use it.


Well, maybe I WOULD stay with you a little while. LOL


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## browser

Hope Shimmers said:


> Interesting. Thanks for the honest reply!
> 
> So if she walked away tomorrow, you would not be devastated?


I don't know how I'd feel but it wouldn't be one of my better days. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> Well, maybe I WOULD stay with you a little while. LOL


She did have 4 orgasms the other night. Maybe she IS using me for my body.

:frown2:


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## Hope Shimmers

browser said:


> She did have 4 orgasms the other night.


Stop. You're making me envious.



browser said:


> Maybe she IS using me for my body.


But that's kind of what you want, right?

Actually I think you WOULD be devastated. I think you are more emotionally involved than you want to admit. The head can control the heart only so much. The heart wants what the heart wants, you know?


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## Bananapeel

Hope Shimmers said:


> I just don't understand how these men can be so analytical and clinical and detached. Were you really hurt that bad that you could never risk it again?
> 
> Don't take this personally, browser, please -- because obviously I don't know you. But why is your girlfriend with you? I can only assume (from what you've said) that she wants more. Why would she settle for less, for all this time? I personally have been in love and devastated, not all that long ago, and I want that "in love" emotional closeness more than anything! I just honestly don't get it. I wouldn't be with you (or the others who have posted similarly to you) because I would be able to sense that very soon into the relationship.
> 
> Or maybe you are being more stoic here on the forum than you actually are? Your girlfriend indicated that you made great strides in terms of not being emotionally detached, but you denied it. Maybe you are in denial about it? Honestly, this is just curiosity on my part because I don't understand how men can operate like this, or why they would even want to.


I know this wasn't directed at me, but I figured I'd expound on some of the comments. In addition to what Browser said (and I agree with his assessment) the dating situation is skewed in favor of men once they hit mid 30's or later (if they are successful and decent guys). Imagine if you could have all of your needs met without the emotional risk. What would you do? I'm not saying it's right and I'm not saying the men won't change, just that men might be valuing different things in a relationship and getting their needs met without the emotional investment. And there are plenty of women that are OK with that so there is no need to change.


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## Jessica38

I'm willing to bet that plenty of women are ok with that for a while....but many are like the OP's gf and find it's not satisfying long-term.


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## Hope Shimmers

Bananapeel said:


> I know this wasn't directed at me, but I figured I'd expound on some of the comments. In addition to what Browser said (and I agree with his assessment) the dating situation is skewed in favor of men once they hit mid 30's or later (if they are successful and decent guys). Imagine if you could have all of your needs met without the emotional risk. What would you do? I'm not saying it's right and I'm not saying the men won't change, just that men might be valuing different things in a relationship and getting their needs met without the emotional investment. And there are plenty of women that are OK with that so there is no need to change.



Actually it was directed at anyone and everyone who felt that same way.

"Imagine if you could have all of your needs met without the emotional investment." But that IS my need - the emotional investment. And along with that, the need for companionship, physical intimacy, etc. 

I agree with Jessica that there are probably fewer women who are okay with the lack of emotional investment long-term than you think.


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## RandomDude

In the photos me and my girlfriend took, my friends and family all say my eyes have softened. Which is a pretty bad sign, means my guard is down.

Emotions is like a river, you can have a wall or dam to hold it back but once you let it through, even though it starts with just a crack, it's really hard to hold back the tide.

Maybe it's too late for me now as much as I fight it.


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## FeministInPink

RandomDude said:


> In the photos me and my girlfriend took, my friends and family all say my eyes have softened. Which is a pretty bad sign, means my guard is down.
> 
> Emotions is like a river, you can have a wall or dam to hold it back but once you let it through, even though it starts with just a crack, it's really hard to hold back the tide.
> 
> Maybe it's too late for me now as much as I fight it.


Let yourself be happy, RD.

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## Hoosier

Hope Shimmers said:


> Actually it was directed at anyone and everyone who felt that same way.
> 
> "Imagine if you could have all of your needs met without the emotional investment." But that IS my need - the emotional investment. And along with that, the need for companionship, physical intimacy, etc.
> 
> I agree with Jessica that there are probably fewer women who are okay with the lack of emotional investment long-term than you think.


I think there are a lot of women (guys as well) who say they are ok without the emotional attachment, but most dont mean it. Which is why I posted this thread. As I am unable, and frankly ok with it, to have the desire for the closeness that she wants, as I think I see it as control and that is what I am fighting. I dont know if I DESIRE to change, just curious as to why I am like I am and wanted others imput. 

But as someone said, after 30 (and REALLY after 50) if you have the three P's (personality, property, and paycheck) there are plenty of women willing to give it a chance, even with preexisting limitations. I have heard "you could actually type a sentence, have a good conversation, its a surprising rare ability". On many meet and greets.


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## Ynot

Hope Shimmers said:


> I just don't understand how these men can be so analytical and clinical and detached. Were you really hurt that bad that you could never risk it again?
> 
> Don't take this personally, browser, please -- because obviously I don't know you. But why is your girlfriend with you? I can only assume (from what you've said) that she wants more. Why would she settle for less, for all this time? I personally have been in love and devastated, not all that long ago, and I want that "in love" emotional closeness more than anything! I just honestly don't get it. I wouldn't be with you (or the others who have posted similarly to you) because I would be able to sense that very soon into the relationship.
> 
> Or maybe you are being more stoic here on the forum than you actually are? Your girlfriend indicated that you made great strides in terms of not being emotionally detached, but you denied it. Maybe you are in denial about it? Honestly, this is just curiosity on my part because I don't understand how men can operate like this, or why they would even want to.


I posted it the other day to FIP, like it or not if women want to be empowered,, they need to allow men the same opportunities. Despite societal claims to the contrary, men have been left behind in this realm. Many men go into adulthood burdened by the expectations of a society that is on the one hand empowering women, while still holding men to old standards. Then when the clash of this reality comes to them in life, when the "empowered' woman in his life decides she isn't getting the "happiness" she desires and leaves, the man who thought he was doing everything required of him is left devastated. The result of this devastation is the less emotional male,, who adopts largely the same attitude that most "empowered" women have, namely analytical, clinical and detached viewpoint of life. The antiquated idea that women are the keepers of the relationship flies out the window, when women throw that relationship out the window in pursuit of the "happiness" that comes from being "empowered". 
As I said to FIP when she responded, life isn't fair. It isn't fair to women who may still "believe" in love, but it also wasn't fair to the men who are devastated by that same dynamic. I guess it is just another one of the new wrinkles that come with modern life? Maybe one day nature will rebalance itself, but for the time being the sexes are out of sync with each other.


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## bkyln309

I will respond that my ex didnt break me. He gave it a pretty darn good shot and I thought I was out for the count, but I decided that I cant live like that. Life is beautiful and love most of all. And naturally, I am not a flowers and rainbows type of person. However going through hell with the ex, only made me more determined to find the real gift of love. I could have been emotionally detached and "powerful" and hold back not to be hurt again by someone else. But the reality is I dont want to look back on my life and never have experienced true love. It is a gift. I know it exists because my parents had it and my brother and his wife have it. 

I refuse to short change myself. I hope I can find a man who is willing to risk again. I was a really good wife and partner to my ex. He didnt value me but it doesnt mean someone else wont. 

And to the men on think women are out to get you, I will say the vast majority are not like your exes. And the you may lose the opportunity to find happiness again with a steady, long life companion.


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## Bananapeel

Hope Shimmers said:


> I agree with Jessica that there are probably fewer women who are okay with the lack of emotional investment long-term than you think.


I completely agree with that statement. The last woman I was dating was OK with me being non-committal for about six months then she wanted to move the relationship forward. Consequently I broke up with her because I didn't feel it was fair to her to continue dating if we had different relationship goals. She was devastated because the dating pool is not as good for women as it is for men once they get into their 30's and I was the first "great guy" that she met in a couple of years. On the other hand I found another woman to date within a week of looking that was more attractive, more fun, and had similar relationship goals as I did. That's at least what I've experienced. The dating pool is skewed towards men once women get into their 30's, which gives men more choice to pick their ideal relationship dynamic. It also lets men be more willing to trade partners because we know there are other good options that are easily found. 

I also think that part of the problem is (and I'm generalizing) men and women have different relationship needs. My emotional connections (and the need to feel loved) are already met by the relationships I have with my friends, parents, siblings, and kids, etc. so I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything in my life. The women I've talked to seem to look towards a partner for some of their emotional needs and the need to feel loved, hence the different relationship goals. Maybe it's one of those love languages things? 

I don't think I'm personally emotionally damaged and can't form those bonds again. If anything I'm more honest and in touch with what I feel than I was before. I think it just takes me (and other men) longer to development those connections, especially because I feel it is a peripheral part of a relationship instead of the main part.


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## FeministInPink

bkyln309 said:


> I will respond that my ex didnt break me. He gave it a pretty darn good shot and I thought I was out for the count, but I decided that I cant live like that. Life is beautiful and love most of all. And naturally, I am not a flowers and rainbows type of person. However going through hell with the ex, only made me more determined to find the real gift of love. I could have been emotionally detached and "powerful" and hold back not to be hurt again by someone else. But the reality is I dont want to look back on my life and never have experienced true love. It is a gift. I know it exists because my parents had it and my brother and his wife have it.
> 
> I refuse to short change myself. I hope I can find a man who is willing to risk again. I was a really good wife and partner to my ex. He didn't value me but it doesn't mean someone else wont.


Here, here! My thoughts, exactly. 

What I can't wrap my head around is why someone would want to punish themselves and sentence themselves to a life without love because of a crime that another person committed. That seems completely illogical to me.

They say the best revenge is living well. And that doesn't mean lots of money and fancy cars; it means living your life to the fullest, and not limiting yourself, showing your ex that they didn't break you, that they don't have that much power over you.


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## bkyln309

FeministInPink said:


> Here, here! My thoughts, exactly.
> 
> What I can't wrap my head around is why someone would want to punish themselves and sentence themselves to a life without love because of a crime that another person committed. That seems completely illogical to me.
> 
> They say the best revenge is living well. And that doesn't mean lots of money and fancy cars; it means living your life to the fullest, and not limiting yourself, showing your ex that they didn't break you, that they don't have that much power over you.


Surrendering to half a life is letting the ex win. I refuse to let that be my story. He destroyed enough years. He wont have the remainder. I will not be a prisoner to his decisions.


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## Elizabeth001

bkyln309 said:


> Surrendering to half a life is letting the ex win. I refuse to let that be my story. He destroyed enough years. He wont have the remainder. I will not be a prisoner to his decisions.




Love the last line!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hoosier

"What I can't wrap my head around is why someone would want to punish themselves and sentence themselves to a life without love because of a crime that another person committed. That seems completely illogical to me."


Because I am not feeling "punished". I am very happy with my situation, and am in fact thriving in it!. The affection given and returned to/from my gf and I makes me very content and happy! The problem is it apparently is not enough for her. Bananapeel nailed it:

" completely agree with that statement. The last woman I was dating was OK with me being non-committal for about six months then she wanted to move the relationship forward. Consequently I broke up with her because I didn't feel it was fair to her to continue dating if we had different relationship goals. She was devastated because the dating pool is not as good for women as it is for men once they get into their 30's and I was the first "great guy" that she met in a couple of years. On the other hand I found another woman to date within a week of looking that was more attractive, more fun, and had similar relationship goals as I did. That's at least what I've experienced. The dating pool is skewed towards men once women get into their 30's, which gives men more choice to pick their ideal relationship dynamic. It also lets men be more willing to trade partners because we know there are other good options that are easily found. 


Sad or not, this has been the truth for me, as I have been told many many times, "you are a great guy" havent found one of them in a long time! It is really a target rich environment. I dont want to multi date, I dont need more than one good woman, or want more than one. But not willing to go where I dont want to go, and willing to look some more to find someone compatable if necessary.


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## Elizabeth001

*Falling &quot;IN LOVE&quot; again*

You can always tell us older folks when we use the word "compatibility" over everything else. We have been schooled, no? 

It's awesome when you find someone who rings your bell but the question is:

"Can I live with this b1tch/d1ckhead for the rest of my orthopedic-friendly-shoes life?" 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ynot

bkyln309 said:


> Surrendering to half a life is letting the ex win. I refuse to let that be my story. He destroyed enough years. He wont have the remainder. I will not be a prisoner to his decisions.


There in lies the disconnect. I can only speak for myself, but I am sure many men would agree, that far from surrendering to half a life, we are actually fully living life as we were meant to live it. I did the family thing. I raised two kids, I was the devoted doting husband and father. My kids are grown, my wife is gone and now I have "me" time, for the first time in my life. As Bananapeel has experienced, I have had several semi-LTR. When a woman starts to push for more from me than I am willing to give her - adios! I am simply not willing to give away half of me ever again in order to make someone else feel whole. I can golf when I want. I can drink what I want, I can work when I want, I can travel when I want, I can travel where I want, I can travel for as long as I want, I can eat what I want. In the two plus years since my divorce, I have been on more dates, had sex with more woman and had more different experiences, including sexual ones, than I had in the previous 54 years of my life. Why would I want to give that up?


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## Jessica38

I don't need think there's anything wrong with not wanting a LTR, as long as you're honest about it, and the OP says he is. Really, its up to the one who wants more in the relationship to move on if their needs aren't being met with less. 

There are many advantages to being in a committed, LTR relationship and sharing your life with someone.

But it's not for everyone. I think the world would be a better place if only those who really have the skills/desire for marriage applied.


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## Elizabeth001

I just wish I had one somebody to celebrate my 48th birthday with me. I hate being alone. That is all. 


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## Ynot

Jessica38 said:


> I don't need think there's anything wrong with not wanting a LTR, as long as you're honest about it, and the OP says he is. Really, its up to the one who wants more in the relationship to move on if their needs aren't being met with less.
> Absolutely
> There are many advantages to being in a committed, LTR relationship and sharing your life with someone.
> And just as many to not being in one or sharing your life with any certain "one"
> But it's not for everyone. I think the world would be a better place if only those who really have the skills/desire for marriage applied.


In some regards we are seeing that happening. Younger men and women are waiting until later in life to marry, older men and women are divorcing in increasing numbers. Many have tried and many have decided it isn't for them. Some have tried and decided it isn't for them with that particular person but perhaps some one else. Some dig in and stick it out no matter how miserable it makes them. Some find somebody that they can be tolerate for their time on earth. A few actually love each other for life.


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## browser

Ynot said:


> In the two plus years since my divorce, I have been on more dates, had sex with more woman and had more different experiences, including sexual ones, than I had in the previous 54 years of my life. Why would I want to give that up?


We're the same age, within a year anyway. I too was married and raised two kids. I'm about 7 years out from the end of my divorce. I too had lots of short and long term relationships. But I was always looking to settle down. We're together 5 years, living together for 2.5. I don't miss the single life all that much, I had my fill. But marriage isn't going to happen.


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## Bananapeel

Elizabeth001 said:


> I just wish I had one somebody to celebrate my 48th birthday with me. I hate being alone. That is all.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's what friends are for. Instead of feeling sorry for yourself, call up some girlfriends and go out and make an event of it or do a weekend getaway somewhere. You don't need a romantic relationship to not be alone on your B-day!


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## just got it 55

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> Wow! thanks for this. Yes, I was hurt, badly. I did not/could not work for a year. Thank god I am my own boss or I would of been fired. I guess I dont feel broken. I really dont. Guess thats why I ask, as some say not feeling "LOVE" is being broken.


FKAS 

As a veteran of infidelity you have grown in ways you have not yet reconciled in your mind.

Simply put because you have experience you are a big boy now.

Follow your instincts .Just be aware of your GF motives wants and needs

Let go of the outcome and enjoy your life 

Have fun always

55


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## just got it 55

FeministInPink said:


> Thanks for your feedback, Rowan, but I posted this for the OP because he wanted to hear a little more, not to get feedback on my personal situation from other folks. If I needed feedback, I would have posted my own thread. And you would have the entire contextual story to respond to, not just one post.
> 
> Maybe he is emotionally unavailable. But he DOES make me a priority... the example in the previous post is an outlier, and I only gave it to put the argument in context. I am one of the few priorities in his life, but at that moment, all of them had come together to create the perfect storm of priorities, but I didn't know it at the time because I hadn't seen him while he was out of town and we hadn't had time to talk.
> 
> He doesn't expect me or want me to change. In fact, for the first time in my life, with him, _I don't feel like I need to change or be any different_. I have, and I do make demands on him, and he expects me to do so if I'm unhappy, and he always does his best to resolve these issues and talk them through with me. We do have boundaries, we are exclusive, we've always maintained a policy of complete honesty in our relationship, we have a great deal of respect in our relationship, and not only are my needs being met for the first time in any relationship, he actively wants to know what he can do better to make sure my needs are continually met. And I may have mispoken... I have expectations of all the above. But in the context of my conversation with him, I don't have expectations like, "I want us to get married in X number of years." I like my independence, and I value it because it was very hard won. I'm not looking to give it up anytime soon.


OP and FIP

Labels are just that.....labels.
Nebulas at best emotional blackmail at worst.
Just drop the label and live it in the moment.

Simply put it is what it is.

So long as your needs are met and continue to be met, what difference does it make ? You can continue in a monogamous relationship if that is your wish.

55


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## Marc878

Ynot said:


> There in lies the disconnect. I can only speak for myself, but I am sure many men would agree, that far from surrendering to half a life, we are actually fully living life as we were meant to live it. I did the family thing. I raised two kids, I was the devoted doting husband and father. My kids are grown, my wife is gone and now I have "me" time, for the first time in my life. As Bananapeel has experienced, I have had several semi-LTR. When a woman starts to push for more from me than I am willing to give her - adios! I am simply not willing to give away half of me ever again in order to make someone else feel whole. I can golf when I want. I can drink what I want, I can work when I want, I can travel when I want, I can travel where I want, I can travel for as long as I want, I can eat what I want. In the two plus years since my divorce, I have been on more dates, had sex with more woman and had more different experiences, including sexual ones, than I had in the previous 54 years of my life. Why would I want to give that up?


I think another aspect of this is we learn or develope into thinking with our heads more than the heart. Wisdom. Not sure that's good or bad but it is what it is.


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## Diana7

Ynot said:


> There in lies the disconnect. I can only speak for myself, but I am sure many men would agree, that far from surrendering to half a life, we are actually fully living life as we were meant to live it. I did the family thing. I raised two kids, I was the devoted doting husband and father. My kids are grown, my wife is gone and now I have "me" time, for the first time in my life. As Bananapeel has experienced, I have had several semi-LTR. When a woman starts to push for more from me than I am willing to give her - adios! I am simply not willing to give away half of me ever again in order to make someone else feel whole. I can golf when I want. I can drink what I want, I can work when I want, I can travel when I want, I can travel where I want, I can travel for as long as I want, I can eat what I want. In the two plus years since my divorce, I have been on more dates, had sex with more woman and had more different experiences, including sexual ones, than I had in the previous 54 years of my life. Why would I want to give that up?


As a lady who was married the first time for 23 years, had a sudden and traumatic marriage break up, was then a single mum of three for 6 years, and has been married to my second husband for 11, I don't see being married as 'half a life' at all, but a full rich life of companionship, sharing, learning, growing, maturing etc etc. My husband is the same, he hates being single and loves being married. Its also interesting that married men live longer and are healthier which shows that its beneficial. 
You ask why you would want to give up sleeping around? To us being in a good faithful marriage where the sex involves deep love, far far surpasses casual sex and short term relationships.


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## Ynot

Diana7 said:


> As a lady who was married the first time for 23 years, had a sudden and traumatic marriage break up, was then a single mum of three for 6 years, and has been married to my second husband for 11, I don't see being married as 'half a life' at all, but a full rich life of companionship, sharing, learning, growing, maturing etc etc. My husband is the same, he hates being single and loves being married. Its also interesting that married men live longer and are healthier which shows that its beneficial.
> You ask why you would want to give up sleeping around? To us being in a good faithful marriage where the sex involves deep love, far far surpasses casual sex and short term relationships.


That is all good, except that NOBODY said that being married was living a half a life. If you feel that way, I truly feel sorry for you. What was said OTOH, is that NOT wanting to be married is living a half a life. That was what I was responding to. So please stop making things up.

Some times life happens, some times that means divorce. I could look at my life as half a life and desperately flail around trying to live a full life, or I can accept where I am at and take the second opportunity I have been given to go out and experience all life has to offer. What you see as "sleeping around" is really nothing more than experiencing what life has to offer me. If you know of some way of knowing what you want without finding out what is there, then please explain yourself. Otherwise stop putting words in my mouth as I NEVER said being married was living half a life.


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## Wolf1974

I really think some of the women here see this wrong. It isn't fear or disconnect it's just a complete change of priorities toward life.

I loved my wife more than anything. I gave her my all and sacrificed much that I wanted , and to some degree needed, so she could have all her wants. My warped thought was the more I give her the more she will love me and someday give back. Instead she cheated and left me.

Few years of self desctuctive pain and behavior lead me to counseling that truely saved my life. In that I learned my old life was over, the diligent, faithful and giving husband was dead and gone. My new life was whatever I wanted to make it so I did. My new life puts me and my kiddos at the top. I no longer sacrifice and I no longer come in 7th place in someone's heart just behind the dog. I have made me a priority. Living half a life? For the first time I am living a full and complete life where I get what I want, something I never had before.

Now I love my GF no doubts. I would hate to loose her but loss I have learned is just part of life. If she told me today she was moving on my first response would be I don't want you to go but if she did I already know I would be ok. I could date again and live single. I have no fear of it. Our relationship will last however long it is designed to last and that may be a day, decade or several. I don't know and don't dwell on it.


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## Ynot

Wolf1974 said:


> I really think some of the women here see this wrong. It isn't fear or disconnect it's just a complete change of priorities toward life.


This ^^^^! QFT!
I find it telling that some women here are trying to shame men, when it was often not the man who prompted the change. It was the women in most cases. Why are they not accusing those women of seeking to live half a life by walking away from loving, devoted husbands who were only trying to do the best they could?


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## Diana7

Ynot said:


> That is all good, except that NOBODY said that being married was living a half a life. If you feel that way, I truly feel sorry for you. What was said OTOH, is that NOT wanting to be married is living a half a life. That was what I was responding to. So please stop making things up.
> 
> Some times life happens, some times that means divorce. I could look at my life as half a life and desperately flail around trying to live a full life, or I can accept where I am at and take the second opportunity I have been given to go out and experience all life has to offer. What you see as "sleeping around" is really nothing more than experiencing what life has to offer me. If you know of some way of knowing what you want without finding out what is there, then please explain yourself. Otherwise stop putting words in my mouth as I NEVER said being married was living half a life.


 This is what you said
'When a woman starts to push for more from me than I am willing to give her - adios! I am simply not willing to give away half of me ever again in order to make someone else feel whole'. 

I took it to say that you resentfully gave half of yourself for a marriage and commitment and you wouldn't again. I see marriage as gaining far far more than I give. 

Why do you think you have to sleep around to find out what you want?


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## Diana7

Ynot said:


> This ^^^^! QFT!
> I find it telling that some women here are trying to shame men, when it was often not the man who prompted the change. It was the women in most cases. Why are they not accusing those women of seeking to live half a life by walking away from loving, devoted husbands who were only trying to do the best they could?


Yes, I agree to a point as my husbands former wife met another man and divorced him after a 23 year marriage, but we can make sure it doesn't put us off further commitment and love, or we can let that one betrayal turn us off finding that love and marriage again. I am so glad he didn't do that, that he was open to meeting another lady and being in another marriage. 
Divorce is a horrible thing, especially after a long marriage as ours were, but making that decision to love again and trust again, is one that neither of us has ever regretted.


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## Ynot

Diana7 said:


> This is what you said
> 'When a woman starts to push for more from me than I am willing to give her - adios! I am simply not willing to give away half of me ever again in order to make someone else feel whole'.
> 
> I took it to say that you resentfully gave half of yourself for a marriage and commitment and you wouldn't again. I see marriage as gaining far far more than I give.
> 
> Why do you think you have to sleep around to find out what you want?


Um, I said I am not willing to give away half of ME ever again, what does that have to do with you? 

I gave away half of who I WAS, I am NOT that person any longer and feel no need to surrender the self I have discovered to another. Perhaps you did gain far more than you give. That seems to be a common theme among some women. They get a lot more than they put in and when they decide they aren't getting what they want, they walk away. Thank you for acknowledging your MO.

Um, again, what you consider "sleeping around" is simply me exploring the world around me. I am not willing to forgo what could be to simply accept what is. How else do you discover without exploring?


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## Ynot

Diana7 said:


> Yes, I agree to a point as my husbands former wife met another man and divorced him after a 23 year marriage, but we can make sure it doesn't put us off further commitment and love, or we can let that one betrayal turn us off finding that love and marriage again. I am so glad he didn't do that, that he was open to meeting another lady and being in another marriage.
> Divorce is a horrible thing, especially after a long marriage as ours were, but making that decision to love again and trust again, is one that neither of us has ever regretted.


You seem to confuse so many things. I truly wonder if you have ever really thought about anything. Elsewhere you continually confuse God with religion and here you confuse love and commitment with marriage. In both cases you mistake the obvious for man-made contrivances. 
I never said anything about never loving or committing to anyone again, I said I see no reason to marry. I am sad that you cannot see the difference.


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