# Here goes nothing... (sorry, very long)



## JayOwen

Hi all,

72 hours into my world falling apart. I was recommended this forum as a good place to vent and get better advice than I'm maybe seeing elsewhere.

I'll try to condense as much as I can but I’m a writer by trade and I can’t edit myself for ****. The basics: I'm mid-30s, wife is a couple years older, married 7 years, been together for 9. Couple of kids. Life was hectic but solid. We both have busy atypical careers in two different fields (not 9-to-5s) I gave up a lot of my career so she could pursue hers (or rather, I took the ****tier version of it but we did okay). We built a life, a house, kids, rhythms -- maybe more suburban than I would've liked, but it was working for us, and I wanted to give her the family she never thought she’d have. 

As a side note: I would say we came in with a very strong foundation, not built solely on sex (although that was great): shared visions of our future, similar aspirations, some overlap in hobbies, we respected the hell out of each other, loved each other even more. Even today I don’t doubt any of that. Just wanted to say: it WAS good. 

Fast forward to three years ago -- careers are going okay, finances are always edgy (freelancing is a lot tougher in a small town, but that’s where her career brought us), but we've got a house (thanks to a couple good years for me), we've got a family. 

It’s important for me to state that I think both of us would say at this point (4 years into marriage, 6 years into relationship) we felt VERY SOLID. Like our life was coming together finally. So many milestones, new baby, first house, jobs going good, etc, etc. But cracks are starting to show. 

Sex is disappearing. Normal, right? Babies are hard, pregnancy is hard. Except... unlike before, it doesn't seem to be coming back AT ALL. Every 6-9 months maybe ... for three years.

Fights. Prior to this mark (3 years ago) we had maybe 2 big fights. Nothing else. We literally didn't fight. I was amazed (I think something different now, but more on that later). We weren't fighting that much more at this point, but we were having the same fights: for my part it was feelings of isolation (a big city guy with no friends in a small town), career frustration, and lack of support and affection from her. For her: she felt I had anger issues and I was letting them affect our children (she was abused as a child I now understand). We had maybe 3 of these BIG shouting fights in the past three years. 

We worked through many of the issues, spanking is no longer a thing in our house. I still get frustrated, but I’m trying to work on it. For her … well. We were roommates. We worked great as parents, but we were nothing beyond that. I had a wife, but I no longer had a lover. Recently, in the past year, she has taken the view that she has shut me away because of these anger issues, that’s where the lack of intimacy, support, general affection all went. A big fight like we had would cause 9 months of walled off emotion. Then there would be a thaw.

Maybe I shouldn’t describe it as a thaw. She wasn’t an ice queen, she wasn’t malicious. It was just … bland. Gone was the girl who was so in love with me I could see it shining in her eyes.

It had gotten so bad that I had decided that come December of this year (once she passed a major milestone at work – a five year project completed) and I finished my latest commission that we would start couples counseling. Otherwise, I was seeing no change in my unhappiness and I was thinking about divorce, not vindictively, but it felt like if we were both unhappy and there wasn’t going to be an effort to change then we should probably look for happiness elsewhere.

And then she beat me to the punch. We managed to carve out a few hours one Sunday night for a date, she took the opportunity to cautiously asked me if we could have an open marriage. I was stunned, how could she not see how broken we were? How could she not want sex with me, but want it with other people? Strangers, just physical, she insisted. It was an emotional night, she relented almost immediately, felt terrible that she had even asked, we really connected, spent a ton of time talking, tried to understand each other, we had sex for the first time in forever. Was this a turning point?

The next few weeks were tough but felt like we had achieved something, I was gone for a few days of every week for work. When I was home we were working through stuff, I started lifting and running again because I felt like she was telling me she had an attraction to that kind of super fit guy (more on that in a second), we were having good sex, we both started (solo) therapy. Things were getting better … I actually was starting to have hope that this might have been a turning point for us, that we might be back on the path to a happy marriage even if there seemed like a ton of work to go and the idea that she wanted the open marriage had been such a mind**** that I was still processing it.

And then. 

I’m unsure if it happened immediately after she asked the “open marriage” question, or if it was a few days after that. But either way, she entered into an affair. In truth, she now admits the “open marriage” question was actually a cloaked request for permission to sleep with one specific man: our neighbor.

I’ll call him Fitness Bro. He’s a personal trainer, hyper-focused weekend warrior-type (key note: she used to be too, it was a huge part of her life before me, two of her major long-term relationships before me were men nearly identical to Fitness Bro – I wish I had known that). After much interrogation on my part I have come to the conclusion that it was not out of the blue, it was a long time coming.

When we moved into house three years ago, she admits she immediately found him attractive, but deliberately took steps to isolate herself. One might think: good! She knew the warning signs!

Nope, it was just on ice. Jump ahead to this past summer.

In June I was gone for a month. Almost immediately a For Sale sign goes up next door. I do think this was purely coincidence, if only because I never told Fitness Bro anything, he was kind of annoying as a neighbor, though not anything I wasted time on. But then … the For Sale sign. Turns out Fitness Bro is separating from his (allegedly) abusive wife. 

No sympathy from me, but I do have sympathy for their poor son, 10 years old, quite a **** sandwich he’s been getting from Dad and Mom. But I digress.

My wife started visiting his house to work out a training plan, use a leg compression set-up he markets (for workout recovery), maybe once a week she’d go over. I’ll admit, I was jealous, but she was happy to be starting serious training again and I didn’t want to rain on the parade.

I’m a ****ing idiot.

They were doing all of that, but with Fitness Bro’s wife out of the picture now, my wife had taken her vague attraction for the hot neighbor to the next level. I believe she now had a crush.

That continued up to the “open marriage” question in September. During this time they started texting, that turned to flirting, and … following the open marriage question he eventually told her that he “wanted to be with her”. Her response was “[HUSBAND] will be out of town next week.” They had planned just to kiss, kidding themselves that it wasn’t really cheating … but it went straight to sex.

That was second or third week of September. It has been ongoing since then up until Sunday night.

I’m crushed. Because during this same time, following the open marriage question, I really thought we were getting somewhere. But now I realize I was just getting the emotional echo of her infatuation with this other man.

All the moments of great sex and happiness coincided (I now know based on a “hunch” log I was keeping) with encounters she had with him. In the stretches where she wasn’t seeing him because they were trying to be “just friends” she became distant, like she had been for the past three years. And then magically she’d transform from the stone-faced roommate I said goodbye to in the morning to her old flirtatious energetic self by the time we had a date that night. I’d later find out that it was only because she’d given him head in her office three hours before (that perversely seemed to be her pattern for how she ended their “breakups” she’d invite him to meet her in semi-public place – her office, our minivan in the Target parking lot – and get him off. I’m sorry for the gory details. I just don’t know what to do with the mental images.)

This whole time I was insane with jealousy. I was losing sleep, I was convinced I was crazy because there was no evidence. No huge chunks of time missing (turns out they're just quicker than I could've thought). She quickly discovered Whatsapp. She locked her phone and turned off notifications, I was traveling so much it took me until two weeks ago to REALLY notice that odd behavior. And I was too caught up with maybe things getting better to really push it.

I kept a log though, and it matches up with startling accuracy. So there’s that at least. My “gut feeling” – it was ****ING RIGHT.

I caught her Sunday night because she made the mistake of going into the office at an unusual time.

When I saw Fitness Bro drive off in the same direction as she left I knew it was on. I followed with the kids (in our – unknown to me – recently defiled minivan) and stood outside the office building while I watched the light turn on in her office, and two silhouettes appear, and come together. 

Oddly, I just felt triumphant. I even said “I ****ing knew it!” 

I went home, put the kids to bed, waited for her to come home. I worried she might deny it, I went for a drive – that was a mistake. I think she knew something was up. Texted me: “You okay?” I think that’s a pretty common guilt question from cheaters, right?

I drove home, stormed into our room, snatched the phone out of her hand and starting shouting. She stonewalled (had managed to lock the phone) for a few minutes and then eventually confessed.

The rest of the night was a lot of tears on her part, a lot of prying on my part. An almost immediate promise that it was over. At one point I stormed next door. The dip**** answered the door in his underwear. I wanted to break his jaw but I knew me spending the night in jail (much less potentially losing that fight) was not something I wanted my kids knowing about (or being affected by). So I just told him “It’s over” and kept repeating it until he stopped pretending he didn’t know what I was talking about.

Yuck.

And so here I am. Three days later. ****ed up. Lonely. Hating this woman. Desperate to get back to the way we were years ago. Wondering if we’ve changed too much. Wondering how she could be so vindictive in how she went about it – I mean asking me? Then days later making plans to do it anyway? It’s like a ****ing alien took over her body – she’s like the sweetest person you’d ever meet. I’m seriously wondering if there’s a brain tumor at work here. And most of all I’m wondering why I keep ****ing her every night, why holding her while I fall asleep makes me feel so calm. Only to wake up the next morning and hits me in the face like a hammer that ITS ALL STILL HAPPENING.

****.

I’m seeing signs of remorse, but there’s still a lot of “I don’t know” and “it was a blur”. She tells me the sex was bad, I’ve read that’s a common white lie. She’s been slow to reveal details, though I’m getting most of them now I think. I believe she wiped her phone after I confronted her. I can see why she would do this, but I’m not sure if this is a huge red flag or not. She otherwise seems remorseful.

I do have a few questions that I was hoping someone could help with:

I keep hearing about “scripts” that affairs follow. Is there anyone with experience trying to reconcile with a spouse with the affair partner still next door? (The dumbass won’t drop the price on his house, which is still for sale at 10% more per sq ft than every other house that’s sold in our neighborhood recently. He just can’t stand to take a loss because he overpaid. He’s a ****wit.)

Speaking of proximity, how do I deal with daily (or multiple times a day) triggers, and it seems like a huge risk for my wife. Especially when I travel. How do I track her movements while I’m gone? 

How do I deal with the fact that she’s being remorseful and honest, but today she told me that she wanted to call him? She didn’t. But she felt that way. It feels honest, and a good step. So I’m glad. But I’m also not sure, I didn’t trust so many red flags that I saw before. What do I trust now?

And more than anything, I just need to know that I’ll be happy again one day. The kids are already picking up on it. I can’t raise three children who imprint that “a good Dad” is one who’s miserable. Like what are the odds here? 50-50 if you’re willing to work? Or … Han Solo navigating an asteroid field?

Anyway, if you managed to defeat that wall of text. Thank you. Here’s your reward: my gratitude for reading the entirety of my pain at a time when I just need somebody to listen.

PS – I am in therapy already, it’s helpful, but only once a week.


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## WorkingOnMe

The affair isn't over. Exposure is mandatory. So is no-contact, which probably means selling the house and moving since he's a neighbor. You really want to go down this road? Personally I recommend you dump her right away. Even if you are going to reconcile, she's going to fight everything unless you've got her begging to come back. 

By the way, none of the actions you've listed "seem remorseful". I'm not sure where you're getting that impression other than wishful thinking.


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## GusPolinski

Immediately file for divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bojangles

Burn the witch!


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## BetrayedDad

GusPolinski said:


> Immediately file for divorce.


And torch the minivan OP.


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## TDSC60

File for divorce. It can be stopped at anytime before the judge signs it as "final". You have to let her know you consider what she has done as unacceptable, even if you want to R.
For me her planning, lying, and the level of deception involved shows that you are her plan B. The paycheck, the babysitter, while he is her party partner. She is not showing anywhere near what would count as true remorse. You can not even think of reconciling while this guy is still in the picture and she has easy access to him while you are working. You are looking at a life filled with doubt, suspicion, and detective work if you stay married. She did this because she wanted to do it and did not care about the affect it would have on you or your family.

Tell her that you love her and because of that, you are going to file for divorce and let her chase the live she really wants. But you cannot be a part of that.

See a lawyer.

PS; Expose to everybody including your family. You will need their support. Don't keep them in the dark.


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## Tatsuhiko

Not that it really matters, but the affair could have been going on much longer than what she's told you. The "open marriage" question might have been her way of asking for after-the-fact permission in order to alleviate her guilt. I would not trust the things that she tells you. Cheaters have a gift for lying, specifically understating the amount of contact they had, or how enjoyable the sex was. 

If I were you, I'd tell her to go ahead and call him. She should tell him that she's moving in. You can help her pack up her stuff and bring it over to the neighbor's house. I realize you want her back, but sometimes the most effective way of knocking her back into reality is to see what she's losing. She took you for granted for many, many years. Now she can see what it's like to have deep academic conversations with a musclehead instead an obviously talented writer. 

Get a DNA kit to perform testing on the kids. Yes, you're sure that they're yours. But let her see the consequences of living as someone who cannot be trusted. Get an STD test for yourself and let her see the results. Most importantly, contact an attorney so that you become fully acquainted with your rights and how much alimony and child support you're entitled to, as well as what percentage of her 401K you can expect.


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## GusPolinski

No contact is absolutely necessary for reconciliation to occur, and that's not going to occur for as long as the POS lives next door. Hell, NC is necessary for the affair to functionally end. So for as long as he's next door, the affair is still on.

Remorse is also necessary for reconciliation, and for as long as she's wanting to reach out to him IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER, she's not remorseful.

She wiped the phone because she's lying about something. Maybe she told him the sex was the best she's ever had, or how much she loves him and can't wait to be his forever, or keeps thinking about his manhood, or whatever. Bottom line -- whatever it is, she doesn't want you to see it because she knows that the truth regarding that something will likely prompt you to pull the plug and file.

After all, even if she does want the marriage to end, she wants to end it on her terms and on her timeline in order to secure a soft a landing as possible. You filing screws all that up for her.

Also, the affair likely began well ahead of the open marriage proposition.

So, like I said...

Immediately file for divorce.

That said, if you want to reconcile, expose the affair to family and friends. Exposure does a pretty good job of clearing the fog. Just be sure to expose out of concern for your marriage and family and not out of vindictiveness.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifter777

Read my post:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...quick-d-over-r-how-did-go-2.html#post16735834

Then set up an appointment with a divorce lawyer and get filed ASAP. Trying to cling to a dead marriage will make you crazy and hurt your kids more than you know.

The woman you live with is no longer your wife. She wants to be single and have you around to take care of the kids and such while she gets sex from other men. She's not going to stop because all of her needs (and wants) are being fulfilled. 

I don't think there is any way you will be able to reconcile with her. That said, your only chance to shake her out of this is a server handing her a court date for her divorce. If she comes back asking for another chance well, that's up to you. If not then you are already headed down the path to healing from her disgusting betrayal.

Let me repeat - your marriage is dead. You may be able to build a new one, if you want to, but this one is over. 

And the others are right, she's still screwing him.


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## Popcorn2015

I'm sorry to be Captain Hindsight, but a 26-year old man should not get in a serious relationship with a 33-year old woman. You were just starting your prime, and she was well past hers. The good news is you are still in your prime. 

Get DNA and STD tests.


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## TDSC60

Understand that the wife you knew and loved is dead. She is no longer the woman you have so many happy memories with.

That wife has been replace by a lying, cheating woman who thinks so little of you and your marriage that she has been f*cking your neighbor and still values him over you.

Mourn the death of your marriage. Mourn the death of the wife you thought you had. But never forget that the woman in your house at the moment is the one who intentionally killed them both with no thought of you. 

Almost every betrayed spouse WANTS the wife and marriage they thought they had before infidelity happened. They wish for a way to turn back the clock. One of the hardest things you have to do now is accept the fact that that part of your life has been forever destroyed by her. You cannot get it back.


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## SunCMars

Your words: she denied you love and intimacy for roughly 3 years. The occasional romp during this period. You attributed it to the third baby and the pregnancy weight that she had a hard time losing.

But it was more than that. She had lost the desire for you and what you could offer and gave it to a neighbor. 

You put her infatuation and her grooming him [each other] into a month time frame. I suspect that it was going on much longer.

And her being in Academia.....this may not be her first rodeo, after your marriage??

This is what hurts the most. She longed for this affair. She plotted and planned it. She had fantasies about this. 

How cruel of her to offer up an open marriage. She has no boundaries.

She has three young children and pulls this crap. Where is the maturity, the common sense. This is letting the VJ rule the big head. You did nothing to deserve this.....from what you have chronicled.

She does not deserve a 2d chance. No way Jose. Why? Because of her age, her education, the fact that she has three babies and a good, loyal husband and she was willing to throw it all away for sex?

Educated women she is.........smart, insightful, intuitive, spiritual, kind, emphatic....NOT. She threw you off the cliff...... using immature cliff-notes tactics.

To no avail. You can fly on your own. I suggest you get away from her. I pity those babies. Take good care of them during your 50 percent custody.


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## snerg

1) lawyer - now. You need to find where you stand legally
2) Start getting your money in order
3) Sleep - get plenty of it
4) Eat - you need energy to survive this
5) No Alcohol - just water - you need to be healthy and sharp minded
6) IC - you need professional help
7) Be the best father you can be
8) You fight to get as much custody of the kids as you can (50/50 minimum - I would fight for all custody)
9) 180 now because your mental health depends on it
10) DNA your kids (this is to show her that everything she has done is a lie that needs to be verified)
11) STD test ASAP - your life could depend on it

Then do the following:

Just Let Them Go

The end result?

The end result is to respect yourself in the end,
let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.

That is the end result.

The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.

Seriously, the quickest way to get them back.

Nothing else works better or quicker.

Let them go.

Agree with them and their feelings,
"you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye"

Wouldn't that be true love?

If you really loved your spouse,
and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with,
wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them?

Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it?
Just let them go. Give them their freedom.

You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved.

I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage sucks and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person.

But cheating, no excuses.

Think about cheating.
A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense?

Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing.

Fighting the affair? For what reason?
To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse?
What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse?
They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process.

And for your last point,
The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this.

"Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."

You give them what they want.
You don't fight them on this issue.
You agree with their feelings,
they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person.

You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner.

You can't say "don't love them, love me instead",
you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them",
you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me"

I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back.

You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you.

Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them.


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## KillerClown

I am terribly sorry you are going through this. I know this is hard but you need to hang tough for the kids. The best education you can give them is a vision of a REAL man. A man who is NOT the douche neighbor.

First of all, it takes careful planning and lots of effort to have an affair. There is no such thing as "it just happened". Your wife had been going through extraordinary length to pull this off. Her suggestion of "open Marriage" proves she put a lot of thought in to it. 

When you have children your self-image will always be through the eyes of your children, at least for most people. I know I started flying straighter after the kids came along. Your wife did this knowing how she would look to her children if it was made public. She was willing to destroy the image of their "mom" for this affair. (No, she is not sorry. No, they're still doing it.)

She needs to know that there are consequences for her action. This is not revenge. This is not just for her benefit, her education. This is for your children's sanity. In my opinion, "My parents had a great marriage but it just didn't work out" messes with the kid's mind more than knowing that their mother is a ****. They will know definitively that this is not THEIR fault. (That's the first thing kids think about. "Was it my fault that my parents divorced?")

It's time for you to be their hero. Be the vision of justice and morality. If that makes your wife look bad, so be it. Go public with the affair to your family and all of her friends and acquaintances. Then go see a lawyer.


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## Hope1964

DEFINITELY do the DNA and STD tests ASAP.

Also throw her out of the house. That's your best chance at reconciliation, because you'll be able to see if she really means it when she says she's remorseful.

Please read my story here for a look at what a truly remorseful spouse looks like. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/32264-hello.html#post434954


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## bandit.45

What they all said.....


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## browser

I'm sorry but it doesn't look good for you, especially since you're not giving her any consequences, I mean she's got nothing to fear, you're still screwing her, sleeping with her and I'll bet you're doing your fair share of crying which is understandable but not the strong front you need to present to her.

You need to create serious doubt in her mind as to whether she'll get a second chance. Go nuclear, tell the world, get pissed off, don't be afraid to lose her or you most certainly will. 

For what it's worth you write well.


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## rzmpf

You have no real means to know if this affair went on before she asked you for an open marriage or if there have been other affairs in the time you had problems in your marriage.

The thing you know is that your wife wanted to get your (maybe retroactive) approval of having an affair which means she planned it. That she had sex with you was damage control and a way to throw you off her tail. She lied when she asked you, she lied afterwards and you can assume that she is lying now (at least lies of ommission), because why should she tell the (whole) truth? Trickle truth is damage control, minimizing is damage control, not remembering is damage control, the sex being bad is damage control (really bad one, because it makes her look even worse, why continue an affair if the sex is bad?). She seems to not want a D (at least for now), you are the safety net.

If you want to be the safety net and babysitter that takes care of the kids so she has time to eff around and you thinking about that every time she stays late in the office or when you see your neighbor then stay in the marriage. No consequences for her.

If you want to live a life without or at least a lot less of any of that go for D.

P.S.
There is nothing to be ashamed about. People who shame you because your wife cheated are not worth your time.


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## browser

snerg said:


> Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them.


Great advice, not just this part but your whole post, unfortunately he's posting here because he wants desperately to save his marriage as do most who post in this section so telling them to walk away is something they're just not ready or able to accept. 

But maybe it will give him something to think about.



rzmpf said:


> There is nothing to be ashamed about. People who shame you because your wife cheated are not worth your time.


I think it's more of a feeling of embarassment- people will look at him and think "what did he do wrong" or "why didn't he provide for her needs" or "that poor sap never saw it coming" or "some other dude took his woman". Those people may not be "worth his time" but to know that people are thinking these things and talking about you just doesn't give that "feel good" sort of feeling.


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## Mizzbak

Hi there JayOwen, 

I am so very, very sorry that you are joining us in this place.



JayOwen said:


> Exposure – if the affair has ended (so far that appears to be true) is that necessary? I want all her people to know, and none of mine. I’m so ashamed that my wife has done this to me, I know my friends will be supportive, but I just can’t feel lesser in their eyes. And my family, God. They LOVE this woman so much. I swear, they’d adopt her if they could. They’re either going to get their guts ripped out, or my sister is going to try to beat her ass. I can’t deal with all that stress right now.


Firstly, none of this is on you. The shame, the humiliation - it isn't yours, you did none of this. Whether your marriage was in a good place or not, your wife made the decision to have an affair. She had a multitude of other options available to her to address her unhappiness/dissatisfaction - far healthier and more moral options. Anyone who has gone through anything like this, is already on your side. And anyone who hasn't got a clue and decides it's OK to sit in judgement - well, fvck 'em. You tell whoever you will need support from, and that includes your family. If you need to expose more widely than that to ensure the affair ends or doesn't start up again, then you do that too. It isn't about being vindictive, it's about protecting yourself and your family. 



JayOwen said:


> Hi all,
> What do I trust now?


You trust yourself. You already knew that something was wrong before you had proof. So just keep being open to whatever your intuition is telling you.

I believe that with enough love and commitment almost anything can achieved. You're going to hear a lot of pretty harsh stuff from people here at TAM over the few days. Their intentions are good, but I'm going to say it again, listen to YOUR heart and YOUR intuition. 

Be strong.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Yep what they said. Rip off the bandaid


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TAM2013

Yep. Rip it off. You'll question yourself but proceed. You can't really love her after this. You already don't but you just don't realise it yet. In 6 months you WILL be over the worst.

Humor her while you do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EunuchMonk

Wow, OP, just wow....how are you still sane? I am.....just wow.........


----------



## TAMAT

JayOwen,

Sorry this happened to you, it's not that you were stupid, but that you trusted and believed in your WW, that's a positive trait. It's not your fault that your WW abused your trust.

A "trainer" ugh, what repulsive human beings in many cases, they walk around my gym with a coffee cup or staring at their cell phones, every so often they get fired for getting involved with a "client". 

You or the OM needs to move far away, you cannot endure living next to this creep or you will go out of your mind. 

Gather every contact you can of the OMs, parents, siblings, uncles, grandparents, facebook, linkedin, church, work, husbands of women he trains and expose all and once in a firestorm of exposure. Do it all at once and without warning or threats. Posters on telephone poles are not out of the question warning of a public menace. Hiroshima.

Speak with OMW to find out if there are other OW you can expose to their BHs.

Expose your WW in like fashion. Nagasaki.

BTW your post was very readable it followed a timeline and was broken up into digestable paragraphs.

Tamat


----------



## MattMatt

Tatsuhiko said:


> Not that it really matters, but the affair could have been going on much longer than what she's told you. The "open marriage" question might have been her way of asking for after-the-fact permission in order to alleviate her guilt. I would not trust the things that she tells you. Cheaters have a gift for lying, specifically understating the amount of contact they had, or how enjoyable the sex was.
> 
> If I were you, I'd tell her to go ahead and call him. She should tell him that she's moving in. You can help her pack up her stuff and bring it over to the neighbor's house. I realize you want her back, but sometimes the most effective way of knocking her back into reality is to see what she's losing. She took you for granted for many, many years. Now she can see what it's like to have deep academic conversations with a musclehead instead an obviously talented writer.
> 
> Get a DNA kit to perform testing on the kids. Yes, you're sure that they're yours. But let her see the consequences of living as someone who cannot be trusted. Get an STD test for yourself and let her see the results. Most importantly, contact an attorney so that you become fully acquainted with your rights and how much alimony and child support you're entitled to, as well as what percentage of her 401K you can expect.


:iagree:

Sorry, @JayOwen, but I agree. DNA your children and get an STD/HIV test for yourself.

And even though you have had confirmation of her cheating, this thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html will be of great benefit to you.


----------



## BrokenLady

Mizzbak said:


> Hi there JayOwen,
> 
> I am so very, very sorry that you are joining us in this place.
> 
> 
> Firstly, none of this is on you. The shame, the humiliation - it isn't yours, you did none of this. Whether your marriage was in a good place or not, your wife made the decision to have an affair. She had a multitude of other options available to her to address her unhappiness/dissatisfaction - far healthier and more moral options.
> 
> You trust yourself. You already knew that something was wrong before you had proof. So just keep being open to whatever your intuition is telling you.
> 
> I believe that with enough love and commitment almost anything can achieved. You're going to hear a lot of pretty harsh stuff from people here at TAM over the few days. Their intentions are good, but I'm going to say it again, listen to YOUR heart and YOUR intuition.
> 
> Be strong.



Believe it or not there are couples who survive adultery. Reconciliation is incredibly hard (as is divorce) but if BOTH of you are completely committed reconciliation is very possible. I know of couples who have really put the work in & have ended-up with a MORE committed, open & honest communication, deep & loving loyal marriage. 

The thing I kept in my mind like a mantra is "I have all the time in the world to decide what I want!". The cheating spouce however does NOT!! She has to choose RIGHT NOW, 100% what she is going to do. From what you say it sounds like she wants YOU, her family, her husband, her life. My other mantra "Hope for the best but plan for the worst!". You don't have to blindly trust her & it's completely natural not to. 

She needs to be a completely open book. She doesn't get privacy. She doesn't get passwords on any of her devices. She doesn't get 'girls night out'. She NEVER gets to say "You should be over this by now!" NEVER!!


I've been in you situation. It's the worst pain I've ever known. Death of loved ones, chronic illness, even cancer doesn't compare. The horrible truth is...The person who broke you is the best one to help you heal. There's a free online book "How to help your spouce heal from an affair" by Linda McDonald (check my spelling). Your wife should be reading & studying it. If she can't stick to it then you should give-up.

I joined forums when I was in agony, loosing my mind. I found it a tremendous help. I learnt the new lexicon...gaslighting, trickle truth, rewriting marital history, cognitive dissonance etc. 

I learnt all about "The Cheaters Script" that many members talk about. Often much of it is true. Sometimes it's all true. Sometimes...not so much! 

This isn't going to be a popular statement on this forum but there's also the "BS (betrayed spouce) Script". I'm a BS. I truly know all about the absolute devastation & agony. I'm hurt, bitter & bloody angry! My love story has been shattered. The love of my life destroyed me. He turned into 'Mr Alien'. I never thought that he could be so cruel....However he DID NOT do half the things the "BS Script" predicts!! 

The BS script...

* It's impossible for affair sex to be bad.
* It's impossible for the cheat to tell the truth about anything!
* The cheat can't deeply regret their actions & wish they had a time machine. 
* You're always 2nd place 'chump' 
* She can't possibly love you...it's all an act.
* She's still having sex with him (or wants to) or wants to shag every other man in your post code!!
* The affair her is the REAL her, everything before & after is all lies!!

To be honest my marriage & reconciliation is a terrible example! I'm one of those BS who needed to hear most of the standard "Kick him out. Tell everyone & anyone. Punish!! Attack!! Destroy!! Scorched earth actions!". That doesn't mean it's true for everyone & every adulterous marriage. I firmly believe that good people sometimes do horrific things. Only you know your wife, your life.

I just finished reading a couple of pages of "Burn the witch!!" & "Don't be pathetic! Kick her to the curb & make the w**re suffer!". You are a FAMILY. Some people can't ever even consider 2nd chances. Only you know if you are one of them. As I said, you have all the time in the world. You can file for divorce tomorrow or in a few years time. You are in control. 

What do you want? (Other than a time machine & for it to of NEVER happened!)

I watched a YouTube lecture by a famous expert (can't remember her name) she said, "Staying is the new shame!". Reading your thread makes me feel like most of the members here agree. There is NO SHAME in working on your marriage or preserving your family. If your wife is truly sorry & is willing to do all that you need to heal THERE IS NO SHAME IN STAYING. 

There is also no shame in knowing that you can never handle this & divorcing. 

I know that my family will NEVER forgive & accept my H again if they know the truth. They are also very emotionally fragile at the moment. I chose not to expose except to a couple of friends....it's changed my (& my husbands) relationship with them. 

Whatever you choose I wish you all the best. I'm so sorry that you know this agony.


----------



## straightshooter

Jay,

So what you have now is lover boy still living next door and you travelling for work and your wife still "grieving" or "pining" for him. Do you really believe she is going to stay away from him????

You have been given good advice and from someone who also got the open marriage request, but who reconciled but with different circumstances than you, I am telling you to go "nuclear" on her and file for divorce immediately. As you have been told, you can stoop in at any time you want to, 

And in your case, with him next door at least until his house sells, you need to tell her if you get this far, that before you stop the divorce, which depends on her actions, not words, she will pass a polygraph test verifying that she has had no personal or physical contact with him.

And she should be offering, without you saying a word, to account for every ****ing minute of her day and night with you.

You also need to install VAR's in her car AND your home. That will tell you very quickly if she is still in contact with him.

And lastly, you need a WRITTEN timeline, telling her that it better be complete and accurate and that if the polygraph proves it to be untrue that you are done.

Right now, she has not only cheated but probably done it either in your home , in your car, and within earshot of you next door. About as disrespectful as it gets.

You cannot control her but you can control you and take the decisions away from her. You do not want to be "reasonable" in her eyes and let her sit in the fence grieving the losss of her fun, and play what is called the "pick me game".


----------



## Marc878

Ha "the sex was bad"? Yeah, she must have been going back to see if it might get better?

Gotta love cheater script


----------



## JayOwen

Thank you all, I am considering everything.

I do believe she wants to reconcile. And while I could see it down the road, I now realize I was probably going about it the wrong way though. Oddly, this evening in exposing to everyone (both her people and mine) I started to feel at peace. She is gone to me, and though I miss what I had, I've been through enough breakups to know that it's over.

I do believe that she's not slept with him in the past 72 hours (ha) but I think all this is spot on, it was only a matter of time before a relapse. I found it odd how quickly she was willing to cut it off, took it as a sign of her love for me. But if she built up to this for 18 months (at least) planned it for months, hid it for weeks ... it wasn't a mistake, was it? It wasn't getting drunk and making out -- not that that would have been okay. 

Even if it was not malicious, she was powerless to stop herself, especially now she's hurting and if I'm not around. I know this sounds naive -- but there's not really a chance that she has like a brain tumor or a psychotic break, right? She's just so unlike the woman I married and have our first children with. 

And so now, I have an appointment on Friday to start the filing. I hope we can be good to each other through the porcess. I have no proof other than her admission and she will now be ultra careful if she does carry on, hopefully that will not affect things.

So we'll see.

In the meantime... I don't know. Clean the house I guess? She's away on work -- no idea if the dip**** is with her. I'm starting to not care. She was pissed that I exposed to everyone. Hopefully that passes, I really hope she is not losing it to the point she might start to use the kids.

I told my friends. They're supportive, I don't know why I ever hesitated -- it's a good group of guys. I have people at least, I now realize.


----------



## sokillme

BrokenLady said:


> I know of couples who have really put the work in & have ended-up with a MORE committed, open & honest communication, deep & loving loyal marriage


In my experience this only really the case when the marriage was really bad to begin with. In that case yes it's better but better is relative. If the cheated party was generally a good spouse they almost always settling. The marriage will never be what most people want when they get married, there will always be doubt, there will always be a third party in the marriage, the AP, even if they are long gone. Their memory will haunt the marriage forever. Go read some post on SI when that talk about 10, 15, 20 years out. They never really sound happy.

My favorite is the thread on SI/recovery that pops up from time to time "if you know now what you know then would you marry your SO". The answer is 10-1 hell no. When it is yes it is mostly because they had kids and wouldn't want to not have the kids they love, but 9-10 if they answer is yes it isn't because they got to stay with their SO. If marriages were truly better you would think the ratio would be higher. People on the R board don't like to admit it but this thread proves it to me. R is a bad bet, and the BS is almost always settling in life.


----------



## Marc878

JayOwen said:


> *I’m seeing signs of remorse, but there’s still a lot of “I don’t know” and “it was a blur”. She tells me the sex was bad, I’ve read that’s a common white lie. She’s been slow to reveal details, though I’m getting most of them now I think. I believe she wiped her phone after I confronted her. I can see why she would do this, but I’m not sure if this is a huge red flag or not. She otherwise seems remorseful and checking off all the boxes.*
> 
> It's not remourse but regret at being caught.
> 
> I do have a few questions that I was hoping someone could help with:
> 
> Exposure – if the affair has ended (so far that appears to be true) is that necessary? I want all her people to know, and none of mine. I’m so ashamed that my wife has done this to me, I know my friends will be supportive, but I just can’t feel lesser in their eyes. And my family, God. They LOVE this woman so much. I swear, they’d adopt her if they could. They’re either going to get their guts ripped out, or my sister is going to try to beat her ass. I can’t deal with all that stress right now.
> 
> Exposure is to end the affair. If they have contact it will continue. You didn't cause this but you won't be the first to help hide their affair and live to regret it.
> 
> Speaking of proximity, how do I deal with daily (or multiple times a day) triggers, and it seems like a huge risk for my wife. Especially when I travel. How do I track her movements while I’m gone?
> 
> You can't stop her from seeing him if she wants to but you can take yourself out of the infidelity. Set boundaries and stick with them or you'll linger in imbo hell
> 
> 
> *How do I deal with the fact that she’s being remorseful and honest, but today she told me that she wanted to call him?* She didn’t. But she felt that way. It feels honest, and a good step. So I’m glad. But I’m also not sure, I didn’t trust so many red flags that I saw before. What do I trust now?
> 
> You can't trust anything about her at this time. She's addicted to the affair sex and wants to continue.
> 
> And more than anything, I just need to know that I’ll be happy again one day. The kids are already picking up on it. I can’t raise three children who imprint that “a good Dad” is one who’s miserable. Like what are the odds here? 50-50 if you’re willing to work? Or … Han Solo navigating an asteroid field?
> 
> Anyway, if you managed to defeat that wall of text. Thank you. Here’s your reward: my gratitude for reading the entirety of my pain at a time when I just need somebody to listen.


Don't jump into a reconciliation with taking time to think this through. It's the worst thing you can do. It says I'll do anything to save our marriage even if you continue to screw him.

Your fear and weakness at this time are your worst enemies.


----------



## jsmart

SunCMars said:


> Your words: *she denied you love and intimacy for roughly 3 years.* The occasional romp during this period. You attributed it to the third baby and the pregnancy weight that she had a hard time losing.
> 
> But it was more than that. *She had lost the desire for you* and what you could offer and *gave it to a neighbor. *
> 
> You put her infatuation and her grooming him [each other] into a month time frame. *I suspect that it was going on much longer.*
> 
> And her being in Academia.....this may not be her first rodeo, after your marriage??
> 
> This is what hurts the most. *She longed for this affair. She plotted and planned it. She had fantasies about this. *
> 
> *How cruel of her to offer up an open marriage. She has no boundaries.*
> 
> *She has three young children and pulls this crap*. Where is the maturity, the common sense. This is letting the VJ rule the big head. You did nothing to deserve this.....from what you have chronicled.
> 
> *She does not deserve a 2d chance. *No way Jose. Why? Because of her age, her education, the fact that she has three babies and a good, loyal husband and she was willing to throw it all away for sex?
> 
> Educated women she is.........smart, insightful, intuitive, spiritual, kind, emphatic....NOT. She threw you off the cliff...... using immature cliff-notes tactics.
> 
> To no avail. You can fly on your own. I suggest you get away from her. I pity those babies. Take good care of them during your 50 percent custody.


I agree 100% . This woman is not remorseful, she's just regrets getting caught. She wants the honor that comes with being a wife and mother but acts like a sleazy wh0re. Grabbing every opportunity to blow this guy, even in your car and probably your house when kids go to bed. Of course a POS "trainer" is going to accept an easy BJ. 

The affair has been going on from WAY before she asked about an open marriage. She was just getting tired of hiding and wanted to go public with her man. 

Your wife probably has resentment with being main bread winner. Though most women will talk about not caring if there husband makes less and a few outliers will post about how they make more than their husband and are fine with it, the truth is most women don't like the pressure. 

Then there is this common theme I've seen many times of women that get lifted up by their husband, forgetting the man that helped make it possible. She just looks at you and wonders if she can do better. 

I know you don't want to break up your family and thereby have your 3 kids grow up in a broken home but you wife has betrayed you in a very vile and calculated way. 

With this POS living next door and you traveling often, you'll have to live as a freaking detective. That is a life of misery. This is after she denied you for the past three years while she was draining this guy several times a week not counting the sex. 

Practically every guy I've known IRL or through their story online has ended up with a hotter and way younger woman. You've been with a woman 7 years older than you for years, when you hook up with one much younger than you, you'll wonder what was wrong with you even considering taking a cheating wife back.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Think about it. If you reconciled what would you get? Back to a disinterested wife and sex every 6-9 months? Why bother?


----------



## JayOwen

WorkingOnMe said:


> Think about it. If you reconciled what would you get? Back to a disinterested wife and sex every 6-9 months? Why bother?


Yeah, that's what's got me dragging down right now. The period where I thought we were getting back to "us" from the good old days turned out just to be the overflow from her infatuation with him (when with him, great for us, when on "break" with him, grumpy and affectionless)

So yeah, we get back together and its just ... the doldrums period all over again?

Can't do it man. It's becoming clearer.


----------



## straightshooter

JayOwen said:


> Thank you all, I am considering everything.
> 
> I do believe she wants to reconcile. And while I could see it down the road, I now realize I was probably going about it the wrong way though. Oddly, this evening in exposing to everyone (both her people and mine) I started to feel at peace. She is gone to me, and though I miss what I had, I've been through enough breakups to know that it's over.
> 
> I do believe that she's not slept with him in the past 72 hours (ha) but I think all this is spot on, it was only a matter of time before a relapse. I found it odd how quickly she was willing to cut it off, took it as a sign of her love for me. But if she built up to this for 18 months (at least) planned it for months, hid it for weeks ... it wasn't a mistake, was it? It wasn't getting drunk and making out -- not that that would have been okay.
> 
> Even if it was not malicious, she was powerless to stop herself, especially now she's hurting and if I'm not around. I know this sounds naive -- but there's not really a chance that she has like a brain tumor or a psychotic break, right? She's just so unlike the woman I married and have our first children with.
> 
> And so now, I have an appointment on Friday to start the filing. I hope we can be good to each other through the porcess. I have no proof other than her admission and she will now be ultra careful if she does carry on, hopefully that will not affect things.
> 
> So we'll see.
> 
> In the meantime... I don't know. Clean the house I guess? She's away on work -- no idea if the dip**** is with her. I'm starting to not care. She was pissed that I exposed to everyone. Hopefully that passes, I really hope she is not losing it to the point she might start to use the kids.
> 
> I told my friends. They're supportive, I don't know why I ever hesitated -- it's a good group of guys. I have people at least, I now realize.



Jay,

You can bet your 401K that is she is still telling you that despite what has happened that she wants to call her OM, that this is NOT over. Do not believe a word she says to you, and do not let the fear of her not being amicable taint your actions. You be amicable as long as she takes what you decide and not one second longer. She is not the victim here my friend and you do not let her play it.

This OM has just had a ****fest anytome your wife could get free and he is not going to give that up as long as your wife is still willing to talk to him. And she is going to talk to him. Of course she may appear she wants to reconcile. With him living next door and you travelling she knows you cannot catch her again unless you get lucky.

My bet is the next move will be a burner phone.

Jay, she is sorry she was stupid enough to walk out of the house with you there and get caught. That is all she is sorry about other than it may be starting to hit her that you are not going to accept what she has done.

Like someone said, you have no real options here that are the basis for any reconciliation
(1) she is obviously still "pining" for him and is probably less than a three minute walk from his bed
(2) you have no way to track her with this proximity
(3) you cannot trust anything she says

Do not get bogged down in this "fog" bull ****. She is in no fog. She planned this all along, it went on for longer than you know, and she had absol;utterly no intention of stopping it. You will never have a moments peace with him next door. She should be crawling across the floor BEGGING you. Instead she is telling you she misses him.

You did the absolute correct thing exposing this and if you can you ought to expose it to his ex wife if you can find her so that she is not duped into getting back with him since he might try that because you blew up his daily blow job fun.

If your wife is calmly walking around going about her business and just telling you she is sorry you are making a big mistake if you even consider R right now. 

Play a little game and if you even get into that conversation tell her she will take a polygraph every quarter for a year and just watch her reaction. Even if you have no intention of doing it she will resemble Casper The Ghost knowing there is absolutely no chance she will fool you again anytime in the foreseeable future.

Remember, you CAN stop a divorce any time you want to.


----------



## BrokenLady

sokillme said:


> In my experience this only really the case when the marriage was really bad to begin with. In that case yes it's better but better is relative. If the cheated party was generally a good spouse they almost always settling. The marriage will never be what most people want when they get married, there will always be doubt, there will always be a third party in the marriage, the AP, even if they are long gone. Their memory will haunt the marriage forever. Go read some post on SI when that talk about 10, 15, 20 years out. They never really sound happy.
> 
> My favorite is the thread on SI/recovery that pops up from time to time "if you know now what you know then would you marry your SO". The answer is 10-1 hell no. When it is yes it is mostly because they had kids and wouldn't want to not have the kids they love, but 9-10 if they answer is yes it isn't because they got to stay with their SO. If marriages were truly better you would think the ratio would be higher. People on the R board don't like to admit it but this thread proves it to me. R is a bad bet, and the BS is almost always settling in life.



I'm a hapless romantic which is why I can't get the thought "He killed our love story!" out of my head. I've been with my husband my entire adult life but I can't stop my brain from doubting EVERYTHING. I'm nearly convinced that I'm not the reconciling kind. 

My husband had NEVER voiced a complaint about our marriage. I had emergency, life saving surgery. I still pushed hard to do everything while my H still worked very long hours. I was NOT a cripple & he was NOT my care taker. He blamed his affair on being sick of being surrounded by sickness. Oh it so bloody hard!!!

Anyway, my husband first had an affair with her 12 years ago. Yep! SAME OW 12 YEARS later!! 

After the first time we did reconcile. So very much life happened in those years. He was wonderful! He spotted my triggers before I did. We had our babies. We lived through the best & worst experiences of life together & I HONESTLY forgave & nearly completely forgot! I convinced myself that he had a mental break. He was such an alien whilst having his affair. He went from a kind, gentle man to an abusive monster. I excused, forgave & forgot.

OK my whole life turned to s**t BUT I know it's possible to go through the very worst & get through & over it. 

As I said, I'm a horrible example. When I needed him the most he betrayed me!! 

I don't know. I really don't. I'm totally screwed-up. I can't believe my life has come to this.

Am I making sense??

Reconciliation was a horrible idea for me 12 years ago & it's a terrible idea now.....

BUT I believe that if a couple truly want to reconcile they can VERY successfully. Something will always be different. The innocence is forever gone but.....


----------



## sokillme

BrokenLady said:


> I'm a hapless romantic which is why I can't get the thought "He killed our love story!" out of my head. I've been with my husband my entire adult life but I can't stop my brain from doubting EVERYTHING. I'm nearly convinced that I'm not the reconciling kind.
> 
> My husband had NEVER voiced a complaint about our marriage. I had emergency, life saving surgery. I still pushed hard to do everything while my H still worked very long hours. I was NOT a cripple & he was NOT my care taker. He blamed his affair on being sick of being surrounded by sickness. Oh it so bloody hard!!!
> 
> Anyway, my husband first had an affair with her 12 years ago. Yep! SAME OW 12 YEARS later!!
> 
> After the first time we did reconcile. So very much life happened in those years. He was wonderful! He spotted my triggers before I did. We had our babies. We lived through the best & worst experiences of life together & I HONESTLY forgave & nearly completely forgot! I convinced myself that he had a mental break. He was such an alien whilst having his affair. He went from a kind, gentle man to an abusive monster. I excused, forgave & forgot.
> 
> OK my whole life turned to s**t BUT I know it's possible to go through the very worst & get through & over it.
> 
> As I said, I'm a horrible example. When I needed him the most he betrayed me!!
> 
> I don't know. I really don't. I'm totally screwed-up. I can't believe my life has come to this.
> 
> Am I making sense??
> 
> Reconciliation was a horrible idea for me 12 years ago & it's a terrible idea now.....
> 
> BUT I believe that if a couple truly want to reconcile they can VERY successfully. Something will always be different. The innocence is forever gone but.....


Ah that is horrible. I am so very very sorry for you. Why do you choose not to have hope that you can have a better life with someone who won't cheat on you? Why have you decided that this one man and his commitment is the key to your continued happiness and love? Sounds like he has hurt you terribly twice and the second time used something that you had no control over to justify it. Your sickness.  That's so awful. He doesn't sound like a very nice person. Thing is it is a very big world out there, you can still have hope and a great life. 

Anyway I am sorry you are suffering, truly I am. By the way, maybe he did kill yours and his love story, doesn't mean you can't have a great love story, maybe just not with him. That is what is hard for BS to see, their life feels like it is over, but it isn't it will be great again. But you can't move on if you are tied to the person who hurt you.

Anyway hang in there.

This is kind of my point. It's such a risk.


----------



## jsmart

straightshooter said:


> Jay,
> 
> *You can bet your 401K that is she is still telling you that despite what has happened that she wants to call her OM, that this is NOT over.* Do not believe a word she says to you, and do not let the fear of her not being amicable taint your actions. You be amicable as long as she takes what you decide and not one second longer. She is not the victim here my friend and you do not let her play it.
> 
> This OM has just had a ****fest anytome your wife could get free and he is not going to give that up as long as your wife is still willing to talk to him. And she is going to talk to him. Of course she may appear she wants to reconcile. With him living next door and you travelling she knows you cannot catch her again unless you get lucky.
> 
> *My bet is the next move will be a burner phone.
> *
> Jay, *she is sorry she was stupid enough to walk out of the house with you there and get caught.* That is all she is sorry about other than it may be starting to hit her that you are not going to accept what she has done.
> 
> Like someone said, you have no real options here that are the basis for any reconciliation
> *(1) she is obviously still "pining" for him and is probably less than a three minute walk from his bed
> (2) you have no way to track her with this proximity
> (3) you cannot trust anything she says
> *
> Do not get bogged down in this "fog" bull ****. She is in no fog. She planned this all along, it went on for longer than you know, and she had absol;utterly no intention of stopping it. You will never have a moments peace with him next door. *She should be crawling across the floor BEGGING you. Instead she is telling you she misses him.*
> 
> You did the absolute correct thing exposing this and if you can you ought to expose it to his ex wife if you can find her so that she is not duped into getting back with him since he might try that because *you blew up his daily blow job fun.*
> 
> *If your wife is calmly walking around going about her business and just telling you she is sorry you are making a big mistake if you even consider R right now. *
> 
> Play a little game and if you even get into that conversation tell her she will take a polygraph every quarter for a year and just watch her reaction. Even if you have no intention of doing it she will resemble Casper The Ghost knowing there is absolutely no chance she will fool you again anytime in the foreseeable future.
> 
> Remember, you CAN stop a divorce any time you want to.


While she had a 1 , 4, and 7 year old children to take care of, this woman plotted on how to hookup with POS. She even had the gall to ask for an open marriage. Don't believe for a second it was due to guilt. It was so she can go out in public with her soulmate and not have to hide. 

There is no way she's going to stop the affair with OM being next door and you traveling. Think about it. She couldn't control herself even with the whole family being home. What kind of woman leaves her house at night with her husband and 3 young kids at home so she can suck a guy off. 

There is nothing to salvage. Days after being busted, she's telling you she wants to call OM. What for? closure? 

If you read the threads here you'll learn about how many BHs think they're in R meanwhile their WW is still at it. Some for YEARS. When you read it from the WW's point of view on LS, you really see into the mind of a WW. These women will obsess over the OM night and day. Yes, they claim their good mothers and employees, yet all they think about is the OM. Most would leave to be with their soulmate if these guys were would have them but of course few men want to take on a cheater with another man's kids.

You tried to salvage the marriage but you were not aware that another was getting her best. Speaking of her best, while you're getting occasional duty sex, POS is getting EVERYTHING on the menu.

File and don't look back. In due time you'll have a late 20s to early 30s woman who'll love to be with a good man.


----------



## Malaise

You've filed for divorce, who cares what she does now. Or who she sees.

Just get tested for STDs.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

sokillme said:


> People on the R board don't like to admit it but this thread proves it to me. R is a bad bet, and the BS is almost always settling in life.


Quoted for truth.

I see many '_reconciled_' members on that board and the list of atrocities their cheating spouses pulled on them is enough to make you throw up in your mouth. Cheaters with numerous OCs, years of hidden gay activities, 15 year long affairs, years of serial cheating, members who have to number the amount of OWs in order to keep them all straight, those whose cheaters who have been frequenting escorts and massage parlors for the last 5 or 10 years, and on and on.

And not surprisingly, most are STILL monitoring their supposed 'former' cheater's activities to some extent or another. Why anyone would willingly sign up for that sh*t show for the rest of their lives is beyond me; I have to assume it's desperation or an affinity for eating a steady diet of sh*t sandwiches well into their twilight years. :crazy:


----------



## SnowToArmPits

Jay, so sorry you're going thru this. 

Reading your story made me pretty sad and angry for you. 

Your wife is incredibly selfish to have dumped this load of crap on your head. Three young kids ... and with the God damn next door neighbour. Great you get to LIVE next door to the POS. Wow that's cruel on her part, just wow. It's also pretty classless, like white trash classless, to **** the next door neighbour.

Just out of curiosity, how old is the POS? Is he also younger than her? _Even younger than you?_

Her telling you the sex was bad. Probably a lie, but no better for you if she really meant it - because it means bad sex with the POS was better than sex with you. And you should add getting yourself checked for STDs to your to do list.

---

Even though you've decided to file, I suppose there's a chance things might improve a lot once the POS sells the house and is gone. You've got 3 kids, too so maybe reconciling might still be in the cards?

From what you've described, for the last few years your marriage was pretty rocky. That makes it even tougher to reconcile for the both of you after she's cheated. Obviously your communication would need to go from months of walled off emotion to husband-wife caring and communication. Full on counselling and work for you two, the kind of stuff you were trying when the roof caved in on your marriage.

I think it could kill your soul to play the 'pick me dance' now with your wife and POS. Especially when your dance competition is a fitness bro, and when high fitness is so important in a man for your wife. Don't beg to save your marriage, she should be begging you not to divorce her.

Also, if you decide to try to reconcile, I'd insist on a lie detector test first for your wife. Just how deep is this rabbit hole of infidelity? Was this her first rodeo? What exactly are you trying to recover from? (A lie detector test for my wife helped end the suspicions that were a death spiral in my marriage).

---

Let me echo others who've said you write very well.

Courage Jay. Be strong, your kids need you.


----------



## jmiller2020

First of all what a huge heart break. I'm so sorry for everybody involved, your kids especially. I can't imagine how shattered you feel right now as as well as feeling just dumbfounded and taken like a fool. I just wanted to say that much so far and I'll write more once I get to work. Hang in there you're in the right community.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SunCMars

straightshooter said:


> Remember, you CAN stop a divorce any time you want to.


Oh, yes.

And OP can step in front of a bus heading down the road at 60 mph...... He won't do this because the outcome is too obvious.

The divorce itself?

Stop the Divorce?

Why stop? Here is why....These bullets between the eye, points---> Common-sense, love-of-life and pride-of-self will not let OP step out....commit sewer-cide. Will not let him stop the divorce.

The after-effect-stink that that transderms the skin will not just make OP's surface entity stink...the odor will permeate his skin...down to the subcutaneous layer where it is stored in the adipose fat cells. 

And there it stores......until this betrayed husband sweats it out.....burns it out at the gym....or during anxious sweaty sleepless nights.

This will be a lifelong tragedy, a lifelong Soap Opera. Why? Those three children will never let this loving husband forget what coulda, wouda, shouda been....had she kept her fantasies immaterial and her shaven legs closed, her lips only to touch her husband and children...........not the neighbors ribbed phallus.


----------



## RWB

JayOwen said:


> Hi all,
> I’m a ****ing idiot.


JO,

Join the crowd... When my wife was cheating on me, there were more FLAGS waving than Half-Time at a High School football game.

The _first time_ you get cheated on, your brain just won't let the truth get thru. Your blinded by love, honor, duty and family. Sadly but thankfully those days are forever GONE. 

You can't change the past (you know that). Time to start focusing on YOUR future. Your current marriage is now over regardless of R or D. That's a fact.


----------



## JayOwen

Hi all,

Me again. Yesterday proved to be somewhat cathartic, telling everyone about it. I got a lot of support from all sides, and not a lot of negativity towards my wife, which I actually was thankful for. Clearly there are some very deep issues that she needs to work on, and she will need the support of many people to get through them (for the sake of our children).

In the meantime, I'm not sticking around at least not in a marriage sense (I have no plans to leave town, just move out). As I noted in a previous reply I have already made an appointment with a lawyer, my lawyer buddy is also looking for local recommendations in case I'm not satisfied with the quality of the firm I've already contacted.

I have a list of other things to do ASAP, would like your input as to whether it seems good and if there are things I'm missing:

1) Get another STD test, mine was recent enough as part of a regular wellness review (2 months ago) but I now realize that if the timeline I'm being told is accurate then the affair would've started AFTER the test.

2) Get paternity tests for the kids. 

3) Fitness Bro isn't getting traction on sale of his house. I will be seeking out a real estate agent to try and figure out the scenarios. If I can sell it as is and not take a bath I'll do it. If there's "must-dos" to sell in winter then at least I'll know. In the meantime I plan on starting packing boxes as another sign to my wife that things have ended.

4) I have not approached HR at her workplace (where she did carry this affair on) because, honestly, if she loses her job or just fizzles out then this situation becomes 10X more difficult for me. 

5) I will not be approaching Fitness Bro's ex-wife because she is (allegedly) unstable and I won't contribute to her gaining full custody of their son -- that kid has too much to deal with already. So unfortunately that's off the table. I am considering reaching out to his pastor as I realized he told me which church they go to. I'm also considering reaching out to him and saying basically "Look, I know it probably won't stop, and that's up to you, but if you're willing to help protect my family in the way that I am looking out for yours then ... something I'm not sure what.

6) I will be installing continuously recording cameras covering all sides of the house to ensure that the affair is not brought into our home. Any recommendations for systems that do not require five year commitments (like most security companies)?

7) I've seen a few mentions of polygraphs -- it's interesting on one level, but not sure if its necessary any longer (even if there is the desperate part of that wishes for the magic wand that takes everything back to the good 'ol days). But if I do decided I need it -- how do I go about locating? Lawyer? Google?

Thanks all, it's helpful.


----------



## JayOwen

Oh, another thing.

I'd still like to install apps on her phone to monitor, but I'm wondering if that's academic now. Even if I'm slowly accepting that we will never be together again, I still perversely want to know what's going on. Is it worth it for me to try and gather this information? It's possible she may resist at this point, I get the growing sense that she is already accepting that I am leaving and it may be what she wanted all along (in which case she's probably not inclined to do me any favors, despite the 'I love you's' and 'I'm sorry's' that still come into my phone every few hours.

Should I insist?


----------



## ButtPunch

JayOwen said:


> Oh, another thing.
> 
> I'd still like to install apps on her phone to monitor, but I'm wondering if that's academic now. Even if I'm slowly accepting that we will never be together again, I still perversely want to know what's going on. Is it worth it for me to try and gather this information? It's possible she may resist at this point, I get the growing sense that she is already accepting that I am leaving and it may be what she wanted all along (in which case she's probably not inclined to do me any favors, despite the 'I love you's' and 'I'm sorry's' that still come into my phone every few hours.
> 
> Should I insist?


Are you divorcing or not?

I say file for divorce and quit the snooping unless she has a miracle turnaround.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Only insist if you decide to reconcile later.


----------



## JayOwen

ButtPunch said:


> Are you divorcing or not?
> 
> I say file for divorce and quit the snooping unless she has a miracle turnaround.



Yes I am filing. That was my question, am I just being self-indulgent now. Or do I just need some tough love: "

"Forget it, Jake. It's Cheater Town."


----------



## ButtPunch

JayOwen said:


> Yes I am filing. That was my question, am I just being self-indulgent now. Or do I just need some tough love: "
> 
> "Forget it, Jake. It's Cheater Town."


Then quite frankly catching her anymore is not going to help you emotionally recover.
You need to let her go and live by the 180 now. No more focus on her and what she does.

You need to focus on your kids and self now.

The Healing Heart: The 180


----------



## farsidejunky

JayOwen said:


> Oh, another thing.
> 
> I'd still like to install apps on her phone to monitor, but I'm wondering if that's academic now. Even if I'm slowly accepting that we will never be together again, I still perversely want to know what's going on. Is it worth it for me to try and gather this information? It's possible she may resist at this point, I get the growing sense that she is already accepting that I am leaving and it may be what she wanted all along (in which case she's probably not inclined to do me any favors, despite the 'I love you's' and 'I'm sorry's' that still come into my phone every few hours.
> 
> Should I insist?


No. Don't do it if you are divorcing. Look up the term "pain shopping".


----------



## Lostinthought61

At this point Jay its moot....leave her to do what she wants as long as you are correct not in the martial home. you just have to tell her, that she killed any trust you had in her, so what is the sense of monitoring her actions. she has proven herself to be unable to be honest with you. good luck Jay. please stay in touch and tell us how well you are doing.


----------



## JayOwen

farsidejunky said:


> No. Don't do it if you are divorcing. Look up the term "pain shopping".


Jesus, I just did. And while the article is informative I suddenly find myself alarmed by one item in the article: HIDDEN DEBT.

I run the finances in the house, so it's not on the usual places. ****e, time for a credit report.


----------



## TAMAT

JayOwen,

You wrote, * I get the growing sense that she is already accepting that I am leaving and it may be what she wanted all along*

Sadly many women seem to only really be in love with a man that's not "their type" for a short while and loose the physical attraction rather quickly. She may not have actually been in love with you for a long time and you just didn't know it. You were driving a car without an engine but since you were coasting downhill it seemed ok. 

Still I would suggest you read "his needs her needs" and "surviving an affair" and "fall in love stay in love" by Dr Harley. Even if you don't save your marriage it will prepare you for your next relationship.

You're a stronger man than me if my W had an affair with a "trainer" I would go bazerk on his conceited a**.

Tamat


----------



## GusPolinski

No point in any monitoring if you're resigned to divorce. If you believe that you may choose reconciliation at some point, though, I'd definitely recommend it.

Also, depending on the type of phone that she uses, it may be possible to restore deleted texts, pics, etc from backups. If you believe that you may change your mind about reconciliation, I'd recommend that as well.

Have you communicated your intention to divorce to her? If so, what was her reaction?

Has she indicated what would seem to be an honest desire to reconcile?

ETA: I wouldn't recommend going the polygraph route prior to establishing a somewhat comprehensive monitoring solution, as you'll obviously want to catch any web searches along the lines of "how to beat a polygraph".

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TAMAT

JayOwen,

One other point, you say you are not going to expose to the OMW because she is a horrible alcoholic, but I think you have things backwards.

It's more likely the OMW became an alcoholic because of the OMs serial cheating and lying year after year, the OM created OMW and was enabled to do so because no one told OMW the truth.

OM will rewrite history however to make his W out to be the villain. 

Tamat


----------



## bandit.45

JayOwen said:


> Jesus, I just did. And while the article is informative I suddenly find myself alarmed by one item in the article: HIDDEN DEBT.
> 
> I run the finances in the house, so it's not on the usual places. ****e, time for a credit report.


Financial infidelity often goes hand in hand with marital infidelity. This is why you need to file for S or D quickly. Once you file, the clock stops on the marriage and you are no longer liable for her debt after that point.


----------



## TDSC60

ButtPunch said:


> Then quite frankly catching her anymore is not going to help you emotionally recover.
> You need to let her go and live by the 180 now. No more focus on her and what she does.
> 
> You need to focus on your kids and self now.
> 
> The Healing Heart: The 180


Your goal is indifference toward her. To not care what she is doing. You cannot do that if you keep snooping. Let it go and concentrate on you and your kids.


----------



## TX-SC

Detach from her and quit worrying over what she is or is not doing. You need to only concern yourself with how you handle your divorce and separation.


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## Jasel

Don't move out until you've spoken to a lawyer as in some states that can work against you in the divorce. I also wouldn't install any type of monitoring applications on any of her electronic devices at this point if you're deadset on divorce anyway (as someone stated it would be moot and pain shopping) and again until you've spoken to a lawyer.


----------



## MJJEAN

TDSC60 said:


> Your goal is indifference toward her. To not care what she is doing. You cannot do that if you keep snooping. Let it go and concentrate on you and your kids.


This has been the consensus, but I am going to vote the other way. It's not uncommon for WS's to lose their minds, crying and snotting on the floor, begging, etc. It's not uncommon for BS to miss their WS and consider reconciling multiple times before actual reconciliation or the divorce is final. I say snoop for a bit longer so that all info is available in case of a change of heart.

My neighbors have cameras at their front and rear doors they got online for something like a hundred dollars. The video is stored on their PC for review and can be streamed via mobile app.

Definitely paint and fix things like loose door handles, etc. If you can finish the kitchen update, do so. Selling in winter tends to take longer as it is, but selling a house that needs work in winter only goes well for the seller when their market is HOT or their price is low enough that it makes the hassle of reno worth it for the buyer. Also, call out a local inspector if you can afford it. Have him/her go over the house and let you know of any possible updates or fixes required by code before you can sell.


----------



## Herschel

JayOwen said:


> 5) I will not be approaching Fitness Bro's ex-wife because she an abusive alcoholic


Not saying you should, but I am sure this dude has contributed heavily to her current situation.


----------



## TAMAT

JayOwen,

Actually an affair costs about $2500.00 on average excluding lawyers, court costs and shortened lifespans.

The cost of loving: That secret affair can run up the bills - TODAY.com

Tamat


----------



## Tobyboy

MJJEAN said:


> This has been the consensus, but I am going to vote the other way. It's not uncommon for WS's to lose their minds, crying and snotting on the floor, begging, etc. It's not uncommon for BS to miss their WS and consider reconciling multiple times before actual reconciliation or the divorce is final. I say snoop for a bit longer so that all info is available in case of a change of heart.
> 
> My neighbors have cameras at their front and rear doors they got online for something like a hundred dollars. The video is stored on their PC for review and can be streamed via mobile app.
> 
> Definitely paint and fix things like loose door handles, etc. If you can finish the kitchen update, do so. Selling in winter tends to take longer as it is, but selling a house that needs work in winter only goes well for the seller when their market is HOT or their price is low enough that it makes the hassle of reno worth it for the buyer. Also, call out a local inspector if you can afford it. Have him/her go over the house and let you know of any possible updates or fixes required by code before you can sell.


Totally agree with this!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## badmemory

OP, You're handling this very well. Most BH's that come here aren't nearly as decisive. 

Even if you want to leave a crack in the door to consider R, you're doing the right thing in starting the divorce process. That still gives you enough time to see if she ends contact and demonstrates remorse; and time for you to sort out your feelings. And I would let her know that. But she needs to receive the important consequence of believing she may very well lose her husband for cheating on him. 

If she doesn't do what she needs to do or you can't see yourself getting past her A, then go through with the D. You'll be that much closer to putting her in your rear view mirror and moving on with your life; than if you had waited. 

If she does stop contact and demonstrate remorse; you can choose to "delay" the D. But check back with us. A lot of us here have an idea of what genuine remorse looks like.


----------



## sokillme

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Quoted for truth.
> 
> I see many '_reconciled_' members on that board and the list of atrocities their cheating spouses pulled on them is enough to make you throw up in your mouth. Cheaters with numerous OCs, years of hidden gay activities, 15 year long affairs, years of serial cheating, members who have to number the amount of OWs in order to keep them all straight, those whose cheaters who have been frequenting escorts and massage parlors for the last 5 or 10 years, and on and on.
> 
> And not surprisingly, most are STILL monitoring their supposed 'former' cheater's activities to some extent or another. Why anyone would willingly sign up for that sh*t show for the rest of their lives is beyond me; I have to assume it's desperation or an affinity for eating a steady diet of sh*t sandwiches well into their twilight years. :crazy:


There is on one reddit right now about a guy who found his wife and friend joining a swingers group. I can't even, it must be a hoax. Has to be. How can people be so monstrous.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Be prepared for any outcome. @MMJEAN could very well be correct. She might have never envisioned life without you. Her "I love you" texts might be sincere. She just was thinking like a child, enjoying the moment in her "open marriage" and never imagining the consequences of getting caught. Now she stands to lose her husband, friend (who stimulated her intellectually), her children (half time), her house, and half of her assets.

Your job is to bring this reality home by striking hard and fast. File for divorce. DNA the children in her presence. Arrange an STD test in her presence. Move into a different room and put a deadbolt on the door. Expose the affair to all of her family, your family and anyone who ever had respect for her. Inform the other man's wife even if we think she's written him off (you never know what their current relationship is, or if she was even an alcoholic). Start an anonymous blog to post your experiences and make sure she sees it. Do the 180. Be business-like in your dealings with her. Polite, but only discussing matters related to the children and division of assets. Make a schedule for watching the children. When it's her turn to watch them, you spend most of your time out of the house. She doesn't need to know where you're going or when you'll be back. Have her verbally promise, under threat of legal consequences, that she will not have dates with other men (and yes, use the term "other _men_", plural) either outside the home or inside the home, while it is her turn to take care of the children.

As time passes, you'll have a clearer idea of whether you want to reconcile and whether she's willing to make EVERY sacrifice necessary. If so, you can stop the divorce proceedings at any time.


----------



## Jasel

A couple of other things, do NOT let her seduce you and do NOT sleep with her. She's most likely going to attempt this. Also make it clear that the only things you are willing to discuss are the divorce, finances, and children (forgot if you two had any). Anything else she can get a lawyer to talk to your lawyer about. Do not get drawn into some 3, 4, or 5 hour conversation with tears and hugs like a lot of BS make the mistake of doing which makes it even harder to do what needs to be done. Don't bother trying to psychoanalyze her and figure out "Why" or to get "closure". You'll just be wasting your time.


----------



## SnowToArmPits

JayOwen said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 7) I've seen a few mentions of polygraphs -- it's interesting on one level, but not sure if its necessary any longer (even if there is the desperate part of that wishes for the magic wand that takes everything back to the good 'ol days). But if I do decided I need it -- how do I go about locating? Lawyer? Google?


I'd ask your lawyer for recommendations. 

In my case I didn't have a lot of choice without driving 800+ km to a city with a 1 million population. My province here in Canada only had 1 polygraph tester in the entire province. I found him via google and yellow pages. I spoke to him several times over the phone, I gave him a job interview I suppose. I liked what I heard, he was a straight shooter, seemed like a good guy, most importantly was retired law enforcement of 30+ years with many years experience giving polygraphs in law enforcement. 

I agree with your thinking, it would be a waste of time, money, and tension with your wife if you're going to divorce her. Consider a polygraph only if you decide later to reconcile.


----------



## Marc878

JayOwen said:


> I do believe that she's not slept with him in the past 72 hours (ha) but I think all this is spot on, it was only a matter of time before a relapse. I found it odd how quickly she was willing to cut it off, took it as a sign of her love for me. But if she built up to this for 18 months (at least) planned it for months, hid it for weeks ... *it wasn't a mistake, was it? * It wasn't getting drunk and making out -- not that that would have been okay.
> 
> Nope, it was a decision|choice she made. Affairs are never mistakes
> 
> Even if it was not malicious, she was powerless to stop herself, especially now she's hurting and if I'm not around. I know this sounds naive -- but there's not really a chance that she has like a brain tumor or a psychotic break, right? She's just so unlike the woman I married and have our first children with.
> 
> Sorry but this is a typical cheater story
> 
> I told my friends. They're supportive, I don't know why I ever hesitated -- it's a good group of guys. I have people at least, I now realize.
> 
> You did nothing to deserve this. Support is a good thing


----------



## ABHale

I will never understand this. She cheated tell her to leave. Why are you leaving? Tell the cheater to find her own place or move out of the master bedroom. 

Good night, why is it always the bh that has to give everything up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

What ever else the adultery is on her and no one eise. The OM owes a big debt to you and your children as well. Understand he could have been a friend to your marriage. Instead he choose to Fick you wife, fick you, fink your children. That is the only thing you should say to him and then try to destroy him personally. 

You have given up professional goals to live in a small town. Does that change if you move? 

Understand exposure at her work will not result in termination, perhaps denial of tenure, unless he is a student of her's. 

Gus is right, you are taking the right steps except they are not focused in the right direction. The question is how do I get the best post divorce life and then taking the steps to get it. 

So right now what is the best outcome for you in a divorce. Post it, kick it around.


----------



## JohnA

Sent you a PM on the 180. Did you get it. 

To echo others your wife's tears are to finally acknowledging a loss of her dreams not for your's or your pain. They are not unlike the tears at high school graduation, accepting it is over but still sad.


----------



## straightshooter

Jay,

You have laid out the facts pretty well. No one knows whether this attraction to him while she was pregnant was the catalyst or not. It does not matter at this point. You know exactly what she was doing, and you also are not sure at all if she is still banging him.
As others have told you if you are filing for divorce, which you should do, what she is doing now does not matter UNLESS YOU need to know in order to convince yourself as much as possible that you are doing the correct thing. If you need that bump to get out of this without looking back, then take the pain of the pain shopping and do the snooping. She has inflicted enough pain so what is a little more. The pain shopping you do not want to do is after this is over to do stuff like stalk her on FB to see what she is doing, etc. But this is entirely your decision. Under no circumstances, if you decide even after filing to try to R, should you not insist she take a polygraph. There is absolutely no way with her next door to him that you have any other way to know the truth.
So do what you need to get through this. It is not our decision to tell you on this one. We are all different. And you can always stop snooping anytime you want to.
The most important thing at this point is to file the papers. I believe in most places once you do that you are no longer responsible for her debt and protecting yourself financially is of utmost importance right now. And understand this, whatever expenses or loss you take on the house now has to be weighed against what it will be if you stay with her for that reason and put up with the infidelity. No one is expecting a dramatic increase in the housing market anytime soon and the repairs will not get any cheaper. So bite the bullet and get on with your life.
And Jay, please remember, do not believe anything she tells you that you cannot verify. Her saying she is sorry is meaningless. They are all sorry when they get caught. But you have clearly stated that the most confidence you have is that she "maybe" has not banged him in 72 hours. Not much to reconcile on.
Hang in there, and yes check your credit and get those papers in her hands and do not tell her a damm thing.


----------



## RWB

Jasel said:


> A couple of other things, *do NOT let her seduce you and do NOT sleep with her.* She's most likely going to attempt this.


 ^^^^This^^^^ 

Without Fail... Start sleeping with her again, and you think your head is messed up now. :scratchhead:


----------



## convert

Monitoring her phone works best if she does not know your are monitoring or has monitoring software on it.
you would have to get her phone and secretly put the software on it without her knowing, otherwise you just drive it further underground.

insisting to your WW to put monitoring software on her phone is a waste of time.


----------



## m00nman

ABHale said:


> I will never understand this. She cheated tell her to leave. Why are you leaving? Tell the cheater to find her own place or move out of the master bedroom.
> 
> Good night, why is it always the bh that has to give everything up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly. Moving out is exactly the OPPOSITE of what the OM should do. How can you sell a house you allow your estranged wife to live in? There's a real concern that 
1: she would change the locks, 
2: continue the affair now that she has no oversight and a place to commit adultery, and 
3: without your intervention could even begin to endear the OM on the kids. 

Kicking her out still allows her to do numbers 2 & 3. Better to let her stay in the guest room even after the papers have been served. In the meantime, protect your interests and ensure that this affair does not continue in your home or in your vehicle. You don't want this anywhere near your kids.


----------



## syhoybenden

m00nman said:


> Exactly. Moving out is exactly the OPPOSITE of what the OM should do. How can you sell a house you allow your estranged wife to live in?



OM means Other Man. I think you meant OP which means Original Poster. 

Thus ... Moving out is exactly the OPPOSITE of what the OP should do.


----------



## TAMAT

JayOwen,

There is on very very small advantage to living next door to the OM and that is when the OM moves another woman in your WW will get to see her and she will be emotionally crushed to the size of a grain of sand.

Tamat


----------



## m00nman

syhoybenden said:


> OM means Other Man. I think you meant OP which means Original Poster.
> 
> Thus ... Moving out is exactly the OPPOSITE of what the OP should do.


You're right but if the OP moves out, the OM moves in.


----------



## JayOwen

Hey all,

Me again. It's been a hectic 24 hours, work hasn't noticed yet that I'm offline but it's starting to get to that danger zone, fortunately the weekend is coming and will buy me a day or two extra. Maybe by Monday I'll be able to put in enough to keep the alarm bells from tripping.

She's been out of town on a work trip for the past few days -- I think that has been helpful to my processing. I know what you're thinking -- her out of sight, unmonitored -- I'm thinking it too. But I've found that I no longer care what she's doing now. I've started calling it the Alien. My wife is gone, the Alien is here, and I find it hard to give a **** what that thing does now.

Which is not to say I'm not engaging in behaviors that everyone here would be happy about. I got the PM about the 180. The spirit of it makes sense to me, and I think it's what I'm trying to do with initiating the divorce and selling the house. But the finer details of it aren't my style. She and I are talking A LOT. Texting A LOT.

I think the threat of the divorce is knocking something loose. Yes, you'll shake your head, but I've been psychoanalyzing the **** out of her. It's what I need to do to get some control back, to figure out how the Alien came to exist. I'm usually the person who has everything figured out. And so much of this was just so ALIEN that I couldn't wrap my head around it. The vindictiveness, the desire to be caught. And I believe I now understand at least some small part of it, she's got a lot of childhood baggage (abuse) that she never revealed before. I won't go into details but a lot of life patterns that I never noticed before start to make sense now. She is incredibly intelligent, and she has taken the ****ing cake for repression of anger and trauma.

I can you hear you all now! "No!" "Don't listen!" "She's making excuses!"

She is. But I think it's truth as well. And you don't have to worry, it's not changing anything that I'm doing. I understand more of her now, and I also understand how very broken she is. I cannot fix it. Only she can fix it. Maybe. Very long odds, and only after years of painful work. And honestly, even if she does ... she made decisions that were so catastrophically harmful to me that I will never be able to put them behind me. I want to say something, though I feel disrespectful to the men and women of the armed services, but I am starting to worry I have mild PTSD. 

I dumped all the alcohol last night, sleep is not great though. It's starting to show. I ****ed up this morning, barely got the big kid to school (they literally had to open the locked school door). But then I forgot the baby had his halloween parade at daycare, he was so heartbroken that I had to race home and get the costume. But it meant I missed my 9am appointment with the lawyer. They didn't have anything later this morning, so now I'm rescheduled for Wednesday morning. That's very frustrating to me, I want this process started now. I now feel like I'm stuck in limbo for another week. ****ing sucks.

More than anything I need information, I could probably find a lot online I guess. I need to know how quickly this can go, what my rights are. I just need to get the safety codified in a legal document.

I pulled the credit reports, there's no new accounts, and there's no weird changes on the accounts that she has access to. So that, at least, is okay.

There is so much **** going on in that woman, and I'll be trying to unpack in therapy. But the conclusion that I've come to:

She will almost definitely relapse. 

She is addicted, not really even to him (though she is), but to self-destruction. I actually would PREFER that she relapse with him, because at least it would be the devil I know. It's going to hurt when it happens, but at least she'd not be out there going after some stranger or risk discovery at work (i.e. imperiling her career and the 50% of the income that our family needs). At least I would know about Fitness Bro, and would be able to control how she tries to hurt me.

But I've resigned myself to that fact thait's going to happen. And I've made peace with it. Because it's not my wife doing something to me. It's the Alien, and I'm not married to that creature (and soon won't be in the eyes of the law as well). 

And yet. My wife is gone, but still here, and that's hard. I hear her in the words when she says to me when she says sorry and that she supports whatever I need to do. And I almost hope (I did last night).

And then, I wake up the next morning, and I remember. The Alien is still out there. I have no idea if that was my wife talking last night, or the Alien. That creature was so skillful in her deceit, and the lies.

And so I've concluded that it's always the Alien, and I am unwavering in my decision to end things. The kids and I actually had a great night last night, they were happy and giggling. I'm hoping that my growing peace is starting to be picked up on, maybe they're feeling a tiny bit like "Okay, whatever was weird seems to be passing". Probably not, but I'll take a tiny win when I can get it. They were laughing, that works for now.

ps -- to the questions of who is moving out. I'm not sure what's best right now. The kids, especially the baby, need their mother in the house. For now I do believe I can trust her with them. Of course, maybe it's just the next world-shattering revelation away. But I can't let everything be a crisis right now. I won't make any plans until I get the lawyer and the papers. Maybe we can sell this poisoned home and find side-by-side apartments somewhere. Then I could be out of the house but close by.

Anyway, brain is fogged. Progress is slow. But I think I'm moving forward.


----------



## GusPolinski

@JayOwen, Google "post infidelity stress disorder".

Very similar to PTSD.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SunCMars

sokillme said:


> There is on one reddit right now about a guy who found his wife and friend joining a swingers group. I can't even, it *must be a hoax. Has to be*. How can people be so monstrous.


Maybe the Reddit post is a hoax, but if it can be imagined and written, it is reality. Remember, we have ~300 million people in this country.

That is a lot of interpersonal storied sagas. 

With drugs being widespread and mental illness being common as corn fields, these things happen.

Hollywood and Soap Operas plant the seeds; most of these seeds are weed derived! Pun intended.


----------



## Chaparral

First, PTSD is more common than not with people that go through infidelity. Find a counselor trained in PTSD and infidelity. There are new treatments that work very good usually.

For your own piece of mind, get the programs to recover deleted texts. By her having sex with you there is little little chance she was in love with him and wanted to leave her family. However, that's another can of worms. Cheating women I love with their AP usually cut off their husbands.

You should talk to his ex. How did she find out she was a drunk? For one thingliving with him may cause anyone including your wife if it comes to that turn to drinking. I would hire a PI to run a check on him incase he is ever around your kids. You already know he's immoral.


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, her background issues may be made up. Everything she says must be verified.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

You are doing great, Jay. But expect a roller coaster of emotions over the coming weeks. Tomorrow you might feel entirely differently from what you just expressed to us. 

In any event, you need to not let these conflicting emotions get in the way of doing what's best for you and your children (whatever that might be) in the end.

I think the emotional side of you still wants to talk and text with her. But realize that every text you send is giving her a subtle "I forgive you" or "I can forgive you" message. Even if it ends up that you forgive her, there's no reason for her to feel that possibility that right now. She's looking for comfort, and you're providing it. You've provided her comfort--a safe landing--over the past 7+ years, and look where it got you. 

You should also face the reality that she might still be texting the other man just as much as she's texting you, and even arranging their next rendez-vous. Yes, cheaters do crap like this.


----------



## JohnA

Reality sucks but it is resl, glad you found it. Truama often results in bad copimg habits which maybe impossible to break. Truth is only she can break them and establish healthy ones. But, she did try to tell you about the CSA and that counts for a lot. Understand part of the reason she loves you and married you is based on this. You where the safe one. If you help her to heal for tat healed person you might not be a good fit for marriage. 

My advise is to to accept this possibility, try to help her, yet accept that the marriage might be over. 

Here are some random links for you. 

Child Sex Abuse Affects Both Genders Long Term

http://www.counseling.org/docs/disa...ffects-of-childhood-sexual-abuse.pdf?sfvrsn=2

Breaking the Chains of Childhood Abuse - Marriage AdvocatesMarriage Advocates

The effect of childhood trauma on adult attachment styles, infidelity tendency, romantic jealousy and self-esteem

Keep in mind adultery is often a form of self-degradation or seeking redemption by "reforming" the abuser. The latter is hard to grasp but in that case the other person is viewed as the abuser and by getting them to change achieves a sense of validation for the abuser. Strange, weird I know but true.


----------



## TX-SC

Sort of off topic, but buy yourself a big wall calendar and write down ALL of your appointments and that includes school stuff. You need to be able to see it each day to keep stuff straight. Don't rely solely on a tablet or phone. 

Just a tip from another father. Now back to your marriage...


----------



## JayOwen

JohnA said:


> Keep in mind adultery is often a form of self-degradation or seeking redemption by "reforming" the abuser. The latter is hard to grasp but in that case the other person is viewed as the abuser and by getting them to change achieves a sense of validation for the abuser. Strange, weird I know but true.


This hits VERY close to home. The crux of the issues she has described to me over the past few years was that she disliked how I spanked our kids. It's how I was raised, and it was never anything more than a spank on the bottom but I can make no excuses, it's not something I'm proud of now, and it's something I stopped awhile ago (1-2 years ago). I thought we had worked on it and solved it, I couldn't figure out why her anger and walled off feelings only seemed to be growing worse after I had worked on it.

She told me she had told her therapist about the spanking and she said that the way she described it had appalled her counselor. That was confusing to me -- spanking sounded horrific? So I asked her to describe what she said, and when she did I realized she was not describing me spanking our kids, but something that sounded awfully close to what it must have been to be beaten as a child, or watching her siblings be beaten (she tried to protect them and was unable -- and I now realize that our problems coincide almost exactly with when all this started, it opened some emotional can of worms maybe).

It was not until recently that I understood how severe the abuse was. I realize now when she said "please stop spanking" she was saying "this is killing me!". Except she never said that. Instead, all the anger that had never been unleashed on her parents (who she worships to this day) that she had been repressing for decades now had an outlet. It was being translated onto me.

I think she's very literally made me into her abuser because she's never let any of this go (tried therapy in the past but apparently it didn't stick).

And then she very literally punished the "abuser" -- me, now bearing the weight of the horrendous **** that happened to her as a child -- first by increasingly denying me any kind of support or affection, and then when that didn't prove to be punishment enough (i.e. I was still sticking around and trying to be good to her) she took it the most vicious level she could think of: ****ing the man next door, the meathead idiot opposite of me, the annoying neighbor I so frequently griped about, despite my express denial of permission, and in such a way that she she constantly risked being caught.

I know this is all navel-gazing, but it makes so much sense to me.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

JayOwen said:


> This hits VERY close to home. The crux of the issues she has described to me over the past few years was that she disliked how I spanked our kids. It's how I was raised, and it was never anything more than a spank on the bottom but I can make no excuses, it's not something I'm proud of now, and it's something I stopped awhile ago (1-2 years ago). I thought we had worked on it and solved it, I couldn't figure out why her anger and walled off feelings only seemed to be growing worse after I had worked on it.
> 
> She told me she had told her therapist about the spanking (again we're at AT LEAST a year since the last MILD spanking had stopped) and she said that the way she described it had appalled her counselor. I asked her to describe what she said, and when she did I realized she was not describing me spanking our son, but something that sounded awfully close to what it must have been to be beaten as a child, or watching her younger brother be beaten (she tried to protect him and was unable -- he's a recovering heroin addict today -- and I now realize that our problems coincide almost exactly with when our eldest son -- i.e. the stand-in for her baby brother -- first became old enough to get into trouble, i.e. scolding and spanking -- roughly 3 years ago).
> 
> It was not until recently that I understood how severe the abuse was. I realize now when she said "please stop spanking" she was saying "you're triggering my most severe trauma". Except she wasn't just doing that. All the anger that had never been unleashed on her parents (who she worships to this day) that she had been repressing for 40 years now had an outlet. It was being translated onto me.
> 
> I think she's very literally made me into her abuser because she's never let any of this go (never went to therapy).
> 
> And then she very literally punished the "abuser" -- me, now bearing the weight of the horrendous **** that happened to her as a child -- first by increasingly denying me any kind of support or affection, and then when that didn't prove to be punishment enough (i.e. I was still sticking around and trying to be good to her) she took it the most vicious level she could think of: ****ing the man next door, the meathead idiot opposite of me, the annoying neighbor I so frequently griped about, despite my express denial of permission, and in such a way that she she constantly risked being caught.
> 
> I know this is all navel-gazing, but it makes so much sense to me.


Damn. If that's not a deal breaker I don't know what is. Really, there's no coming back from that.

Also, I have to say, based on what I've read so far she doesn't seem all that broken up about your plan to leave her. A remorseful spouse would be going pretty far to prove her remorse. She's basically saying, do what you have to do and she's fine with it.


----------



## bandit.45

But what if it wasn't any of that? What if she was just bored and wanted to fvck the guy?


----------



## JohnA

That is part of the dynamic I did not touch on as yet while waiting for you to digest the first part. You describe the transformation of the knighting white shining into the abuser. Spanking was the trigger/excuse waiting in the wings. 

Thinking about this: in the end we all seek the love we think we deserve. Then think about the type of guys CSA victims choose to commit adultery. Would these be the type a health person even chose to associate with ? It could be in a sense her own need to be in in an abusive relationship caused her to view you as abusive and then flee. @Uptown has dealt with and posted here at length on dealing with BPD. CSA in cases may cause BPD. Many of the acting out are the same. Here is one post that applies in different forms in both 


Generally, you will not find the full-blown BPDers to be scary at all. The vast majority of them are high functioning individuals who typically exhibit a warmth, spontaneity, and childlike purity of expression that makes them very likable, fun, and easy to fall in love with. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both exhibited full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct. You typically will never see a BPDer's dark side unless you make the mistake of trying to establish a close friendship, at which point you will start triggering the BPDer's two fears (abandonment and engulfment).


----------



## JohnA

I also believe both BPD and CSA victims are prone to limerence in an attempt to escape themselves. Yes sometimes they are right, it is not you - it is them.


What Is Limerence?

We use the term limerence for this strong emotion. It was coined in 1979 by Dorothy Tennov. In her book Love and Limerence she listed a number of characteristics of limerence including:

• intrusive thinking about the person one is madly in love with (referred to as the Limerent Object or LO)

• strong, pervasive longing for the LO to reciprocate the emotion

• feelings of euphoria or ecstasy when any action by the LO is interpreted as demonstrating reciprocal emotions

• obsessive thinking about the LO to the point that many other things, even important things, are ignored or neglected

• a powerful perception that the LO is nearly flawless (good qualities are magnified; bad qualities strongly minimized)

• sexual desire for the LO

Neither a straying spouse nor a paramour in limerence sees the future as it likely will be. They exist in the throes of ecstasy that come with limerence, as well as the pits of fear when anything occurs that has any possibility of preventing them from being together. That fear leads each of them not only to experience exuberance when the LO demonstrates positive emotion, but also worry and despair if they interpret any word or action from the LO as negative. Those of us who have been through limerence testify that it is a strange, overwhelming sensation that vacillates wildly between love and fear, joy and misery. That’s why logic doesn’t work with people in limerence. It’s such a powerful emotion that it denies the logic that confronts it.


See any of this in your wife's relationship. See OM knows this and is loving the free ride. The question in this case is not how do you get your wife to stop, it is how to make him get out of your marriage. If you don't he will be in your divorce egging her on.


----------



## JohnA

There was a one season TV show that when the lead actor was asked why he only dated crazy woman responded: the sex is amazing!


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

JayOwen said:


> This hits VERY close to home. The crux of the issues she has described to me over the past few years was that she disliked how I spanked our kids. It's how I was raised, and it was never anything more than a spank on the bottom but I can make no excuses, it's not something I'm proud of now, and it's something I stopped awhile ago (1-2 years ago). I thought we had worked on it and solved it, I couldn't figure out why her anger and walled off feelings only seemed to be growing worse after I had worked on it.
> 
> She told me she had told her therapist about the spanking (again we're at AT LEAST a year since the last MILD spanking had stopped) and she said that the way she described it had appalled her counselor. I asked her to describe what she said, and when she did I realized she was not describing me spanking our son, but something that sounded awfully close to what it must have been to be beaten as a child, or watching her younger brother be beaten (she tried to protect him and was unable -- he's a recovering heroin addict today -- and I now realize that our problems coincide almost exactly with when our eldest son -- i.e. the stand-in for her baby brother -- first became old enough to get into trouble, i.e. scolding and spanking -- roughly 3 years ago).
> 
> It was not until recently that I understood how severe the abuse was. I realize now when she said "please stop spanking" she was saying "you're triggering my most severe trauma". Except she wasn't just doing that. All the anger that had never been unleashed on her parents (who she worships to this day) that she had been repressing for 40 years now had an outlet. It was being translated onto me.
> 
> I think she's very literally made me into her abuser because she's never let any of this go (never went to therapy).
> 
> And then she very literally punished the "abuser" -- me, now bearing the weight of the horrendous **** that happened to her as a child -- first by increasingly denying me any kind of support or affection, and then when that didn't prove to be punishment enough (i.e. I was still sticking around and trying to be good to her) she took it the most vicious level she could think of: ****ing the man next door, the meathead idiot opposite of me, the annoying neighbor I so frequently griped about, despite my express denial of permission, and in such a way that she she constantly risked being caught.
> 
> I know this is all navel-gazing, but it makes so much sense to me.


It's good to have this epiphany. Now, you understand her better than she understands herself. But you can't do the work for her. If SHE'S not willing to sort this out within herself, then your marriage still cannot recover. Personality is nearly immutable, unfortunately.

And sticking around to prove her wrong about not being worth sticking around for will only continue your own suffering. At some point, for the sake of your children, you have to stop hoping your wife will have her own epiphany, and start focusing on yourself and on them. You can't fix your wife. But you can make sure your children grow up with the influence of at least one stable parent, which you can't be if your whole life is spent trying to rescue your wife from herself.


----------



## Graywolf2

JayOwen said:


> I'm 35, wife is 42
> 
> We built a life, a house, kids, rhythms
> 
> we've got a family (3 babies in four years, it was intentional!).
> 
> I wanted to give her the family she never thought she’d have.
> 
> We were roommates. We worked great as parents, but we were nothing beyond that. I had a wife, but I no longer had a lover.
> He’s a personal trainer, an Ironman athlete (key note: she used to be too, it was a huge part of her life before me, both of her major long-term relationships before me were men nearly identical to Fitness Bro – I wish I had known that).


Your wife sowed her wild oats with hot bad boy types. Unfortunately those types tend not to provide the stability and security needed for a family. Female fertility starts dropping around age 30. She needed a nester nice guy like you. Those qualities were what she found attractive in you.

Think of her as your teenage daughter who was dating a bad boy you didn’t approve of. She had you for security and stability and the OM for fun. She’s upset because she doesn’t want to lose what you provide. She may “love” you but it’s like loving a family member. The only leverage a dad has over a teenage girl in heat is to let them know that they can be kicked out of the house. (No more security from dad). She will tell daddy whatever it takes to keep her room then sneak out of her window at night.



JayOwen said:


> I've started calling it the Alien. My wife is gone, the Alien is here, and I find it hard to give a **** what that thing does now.


Invasion of the Body Snatchers (Movie)
“In San Francisco, a group of people discover the human race is being replaced one by one, with clones devoid of emotion.”


----------



## JayOwen

JohnA said:


> I also believe both BPD and CSA victims are prone to limerence in an attempt to escape themselves. Yes sometimes they are right, it is not you - it is them.
> 
> 
> What Is Limerence?
> 
> We use the term limerence for this strong emotion. It was coined in 1979 by Dorothy Tennov. In her book Love and Limerence she listed a number of characteristics of limerence including:
> 
> • intrusive thinking about the person one is madly in love with (referred to as the Limerent Object or LO)
> 
> • strong, pervasive longing for the LO to reciprocate the emotion
> 
> • feelings of euphoria or ecstasy when any action by the LO is interpreted as demonstrating reciprocal emotions
> 
> • obsessive thinking about the LO to the point that many other things, even important things, are ignored or neglected
> 
> • a powerful perception that the LO is nearly flawless (good qualities are magnified; bad qualities strongly minimized)
> 
> • sexual desire for the LO
> 
> Neither a straying spouse nor a paramour in limerence sees the future as it likely will be. They exist in the throes of ecstasy that come with limerence, as well as the pits of fear when anything occurs that has any possibility of preventing them from being together. That fear leads each of them not only to experience exuberance when the LO demonstrates positive emotion, but also worry and despair if they interpret any word or action from the LO as negative. Those of us who have been through limerence testify that it is a strange, overwhelming sensation that vacillates wildly between love and fear, joy and misery. That’s why logic doesn’t work with people in limerence. It’s such a powerful emotion that it denies the logic that confronts it.
> 
> 
> See any of this in your wife's relationship. See OM knows this and is loving the free ride. The question in this case is not how do you get your wife to stop, it is how to make him get out of your marriage. If you don't he will be in your divorce egging her on.


HOLY.

F*CKING.

SH*T.

So much.


----------



## JayOwen

Hopeful Cynic said:


> It's good to have this epiphany. Now, you understand her better than she understands herself. But you can't do the work for her. If SHE'S not willing to sort this out within herself, then your marriage still cannot recover. Personality is nearly immutable, unfortunately.
> 
> And sticking around to prove her wrong about not being worth sticking around for will only continue your own suffering. At some point, for the sake of your children, you have to stop hoping your wife will have her own epiphany, and start focusing on yourself and on them. You can't fix your wife. But you can make sure your children grow up with the influence of at least one stable parent, which you can't be if your whole life is spent trying to rescue your wife from herself.


*


----------



## JohnA

@Hopeful Cynic YES! 
@jay Owens this does not mean she is a worthless piece of **** to be dumped on. It is a challenge and a pathway to heal yourself and her. She is broken. Do not break her more, but don't destroy yourself that is what I am trying to convery to you. Separate with no dating but strive to ensure she is in a safe place to heal. Refuse offers of sex. Demand sex not from a place of need to bind. Do not throw her background in her face ! Do you really want to be a yet another person to harm her? Divorce her if you need to or she will not help herself but do so gently.

While I have no sympathy for Adulterers and nothing but scorn, I do have sympathy for persons broken by abuse and want to see them Heal.


----------



## JohnA

Danger ? What dangers be clear in the sense for any child, a daughter specifically, a son specifically. A list for both.


----------



## drifter777

@JayOwen .... you are doing a lot of rationalizing for your wife's behavior right now and that's very typical of BH's in the wake of d-day. Right now I think you are following a script that you have in your head entitled "how to act when a horrible thing happens" and really are not committed to any course of action that requires careful consideration both intellectually and emotionally. A voice inside of you is saying "Hey - this isn't THAT bad. Men go through this all the time. She's sorry and wants to keep trying. I'll get over this in time". This is the insidious part of denial. You are denying the impact this will have on you and your marriage because to believe anything else is terrifying. This phase will pass when you are ready to face the real-life impact of your wife cheating on you. 

In a few of our posts you seem to think that many of us are "rooting" for you to divorce. In my case this could not be further from the truth. I believe that every BH should divorce his WW because they will heal faster and, in my experience, never regret that choice. Whatever path you choose I will contribute my feedback based on my experiences. As an anonymous stranger I care that you find peace with all of this but not that you do one thing or the other. I think most of us contributing on TAM feel this way.


----------



## farsidejunky

JohnA said:


> Danger ? What dangers be clear in the sense for any child, a daughter specifically, a son specifically. A list for both.


This is what I'm trying to grasp. What dangers do you see directly to the children?


----------



## farsidejunky

Jay, do yourself a favor. Take a step back, take a deep breath, and realize that what you do or do not do in this immediate moment will have no impact on how things will be 3 weeks, 3 months, or 3 years from now. 

Can you do that?

There is a stark difference between taking action because action is necessary versus taking action because you feel like you need to do something. 

Do you see the difference?


----------



## bandit.45

Jay I think what would be good is for you to back off and cool off and get some perspective. I think you need to get the hell out of Dodge. Can you go away somewhere alone for the weekend and just go somewhere quiet and absorb what you have been reading and rest your nerves?


----------



## TAMAT

JayOwen,

One threat to your childrens well being is the OM himself, it's often missed that not only is the OM harming you in a very real way, but he is directly attacking your children. 

Some statistics I've seen indicate that step parents from an affair make the worst kind, and are the most likely to physically, sexually and emotionally abuse their step children. With you out of the way the children become his rivals for your WWs love. Over time he will slowly try to alienate your WW from her children as well.

This is why I recommend carpet bombing OMs life first, as he has no biological bond to your children and must be driven off.

Tamat


----------



## TAMAT

JayOwen,

It was interesting what your wrote about self-degradation being one of the driving factors behind an affair, with my W I think her affair with OM-1 was mostly her giving him oral. With OM-2 she spontaneously started licking my armpit during sex, something which never would have happened without outside influence. The armpit licking went away quickly as it was something she couldn't perform with me except when drunk with passion from someone else.

Tamat


----------



## dianaelaine59

Oh yeah!!! She should move out!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## EleGirl

farsidejunky said:


> Jay, do yourself a favor. Take a step back, take a deep breath, and realize that what you do or do not do in this immediate moment will have no impact on how things will be 3 weeks, 3 months, or 3 years from now.
> 
> Can you do that?
> 
> There is a stark difference between taking action because action is necessary versus taking action because you feel like you need to do something.
> 
> Do you see the difference?


Quoted to emphasize...

Jay, it's been only a few days. 

Please take the above advice and step back, take a deep breath.

You are rushing into filing for divorce. I'm not saying that divorce is or is not the best answer for you. I'm staying that you seem to be acting at least you feel you are taking control and doing something.

Remember that divorce costs a lot of money. The retainer will be thousands of dollars. What if you change your mind? You are not getting that money back.

It's good to find out your legal rights and get some advice at this stage. But just slow down for a while.

There is a book that I think will help you. It's a quick read, so it's not a large investment of time. But it gives a lot of info that I think would help you.

"Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley


----------



## jsmart

Popcorn2015 said:


> I'm sorry to be Captain Hindsight, but *a 26-year old man should not get in a serious relationship with a 33-year old woman. You were just starting your prime, and she was well past hers.* The good news is you are still in your prime.
> 
> Get DNA and STD tests.





Graywolf2 said:


> *Your wife sowed her wild oats with hot bad boy types.* *Unfortunately those types tend not to provide the stability and security needed for a family. Female fertility starts dropping around age 30. She needed a nester nice guy like you. Those qualities were what she found attractive in you.*
> 
> Think of her as your teenage daughter who was dating a bad boy you didn’t approve of. She had you for security and stability and the OM for fun. She’s upset because she doesn’t want to lose what you provide. She may “love” you but it’s like loving a family member. The only leverage a dad has over a teenage girl in heat is to let them know that they can be kicked out of the house. (No more security from dad). She will tell daddy whatever it takes to keep her room then sneak out of her window at night.


This relationship had so many negatives right from the beginning. With her biological clock ticking LOUDLY, she grabbed an opportunity to have a kid with a guy who could be "marriage material " even though he was not her type. She was able to suppress her desires for a short time but with douche bag next door, she couldn't restrain herself. 

As a mid 30s, never married woman, she probably has been riding the carousel for quite some time before meeting you and has learned quite a few tricks that can ensnare a man. I bet you had very little experience with women and were probably quickly pvssy whipped when she busted her moves on you. 

Problem is that if a wife isn't strongly attracted to you, it doesn't take long before her mind starts wondering. You said 2 of her past boyfriends were strong fitness types and then when she finds herself with a neighbor that is her type, she can barely contain herself. Even with your child in her belly, she's fantasizing about POS and QUICKLY starts her action plan to hookup with him.

To top it off, you suppressed your career so she could further hers. This caused her to lose respect for you. In her head, now that she achieved some success in her career, you're beneath her or at best her equal. Women want to look up to their man. 

You may find that you're a better man and father without an emotionally draining woman.


----------



## JohnA

Step back, yes on year own protect your future with or without (not to do so is insane) do what you need to do but do not destroy your wife. 
A good guy will cut someone eises throat if necessary, but not inflict needless suffering. 

Before I confronted my exWW I prepared an email to her friends who where not enablers, and her family explaining what had occur and who the other man was as a man. I closed by saying I am not asking you to convince her to stay. I am divorcing her the marriage is dead and not worth saving regardless. I am asking you to help her make healthy choices and this guy isn't one. I gave her a choice MC rebuild the marriage from the ground up and NC. I got back I don't know, in short no. I walk into the other room and sent the emails. Any attempt for help resulted in an email to them outline the need for help and walked away. Solved or not the problem was not for me to deal with.


----------



## JohnA

@jsmart summed up many the issues correctly. The question is: is the pain worth the attempt regardless if the attempt succeeds. Keep in mind my thoughts of protecting yourself first.


----------



## JayOwen

All,

It has been an exhausting week. I make sense of my world by building narratives -- it's what I make my living at. I realize after much thought is that in this case I was just chasing shadows. Exhaustion, paranoia, three rambunctious children -- it's draining right now.

What I was searching for was "a reason" that I could not only grasp but one that I could look at and determine "can this be fixed?" I don't think such a reason exists other than "she chose to". But that right there is the reason I am moving forward with divorce. Yes, it will cost thousands of dollars. But I need it rolling to feel like I can even listen to what she's saying. Reconciliation is always on the table, but in the meantime I am determined to push things to the precipice. If she wants to save it, she can. If she saves it, I will then decide if I am able to stay. And in the meantime, if she slips up, or even shows that she's unsure, then it's over. For good. And I can try to find some way to rebuild my life.

The kids are fine. They are happy, watching too much T.V. perhaps and excited for Halloween. That's all I need for them right now.


----------



## JohnA

Be gentle moving forward, at times expend random acts of kindness if you can. Your are not wrong in your choice. Only you can determine the worth of your marriage. What was the poem "a measure of a things worth, is our walking though a flame to the other side" ? Did I get it right? 

My signature, she does not deserve it. Now on the other hand X's WS - hell yea ! 

Be well.


----------



## jsmart

Jay, don't show your hand. If you're going to file, don't let her know. Just make your moves and have her served at work. Expose to all family and friends. Then implement the 180 to help you detach.

Work on yourself. You just took the worst beating a man could take. Right now you need to work on your health. Making sure you eat and get some rest. If you have a chance, leave town for a few days to get your head straight. Then come back with a battle plan to change your life for the better.

Hit the gym HARD. It helps get your T levels up and will help boost your confidence.
Start taking care of your appearance. Get a quality hair cut, gets some nice threads, makes sure your hygiene is on point. You do these things not to win her back, not to attract a new woman (you're not ready) but to boost your confidence. Her betrayal broke you and you must rebuild your psych for your own good.


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## farsidejunky

Jay:

You need respite.

You need time away to clear your head.

72 hours would be enough.

No life altering decisions should be made on 2 hours of sleep over a series of nights. 

Get away, clear your head, reassess, then execute your plan.

One more thing. Don't let anger guide you to decisions that you will later regret. I would bet that serving her at work would be one of those things best left in the imagination.

Keep talking, Jay. You will make it through this.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

You're handling this great. You should take diphenhydramine (50-75 mg) to help with sleep. You can buy it at the dollar store very cheap, labeled as "Sleep Aid" or something like that. It is the same active ingredient as Benadryl or Tylenol PM. It's good because it's not habit forming. If this is still not enough, or if it loses efficacy over time, you should think about seeing a doctor and getting something more serious.


----------



## TAMAT

Jay,

Really sorry you are under the gun like this, someone once said that having your spouse cheat on you turns your therapist into your rapist. The person who could have supported you has turned into the one who most destroys you. I think it is even worse for men since they have no support network.

You have a real problem on your hands with this OM because his PROFESSION is seducing and complementing people and looking good, that's what trainers do all day long and they get better at it than most husbands.

Tamat


----------



## RWB

farsidejunky said:


> Jay:
> 
> No life altering decisions should be made on *2 hours of sleep over a series of nights. *


^^^ Agreed ^^^

JO,

It's amazing you can even get 2 hours. For weeks after discovering my WW was cheating on me (had been for years) I was literally "Dead Man Walking". I really don't think "most" people understand what turmoil and stress the BS has during the initial weeks post DD. I remember shifting from grief, to anger, to disbelieve, to uncertainty, to numb all within minutes of each other... then the chaotic cycle would repeat. 

Just keep reminding yourself... Infidelity does not have to mean a "death sentence". Don't crater in. Regardless of whether you R or D, better days lie ahead.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Jay,
@jsmart nailed it on exercise. Stress is like diabetes. Diabetes leaves large amounts of sugar roaming free in the body that act like a weak acid on organs and muscles slowly dissolving them. Stress floods the body with hormones that functional does the same and denies sleep acceoerating the process and degrading mental acuity. You heard the expression "use it or lose it"? For stress burn it off or be destroyed by it. 

Go for cadio with light weights. Don't need a Gym put using one helps. Stay focus on feeling the "burn" while exercising. Embrace it, chase it. I was early forties 210 and while eating 3000 carbs a day and dropped to 168. blood sugar AC1 was 5.9. My doctor bottom jaw hit the floor and muttered "christ" not possible. I have maintained my weight but lost the exercise, but eat carefully.


----------



## The Middleman

JayOwen said:


> I don't think such a reason exists other than "she chose to". But that right there is the reason I am moving forward with divorce. Yes, it will cost thousands of dollars. But I need it rolling to feel like I can even listen to what she's saying. Reconciliation is always on the table, but in the meantime I am determined to push things to the precipice. If she wants to save it, she can. If she saves it, I will then decide if I am able to stay. And in the meantime, if she slips up, or even shows that she's unsure, then it's over. For good. And I can try to find some way to rebuild my life.


For me, this says it all, you are doing the right thing. Pursue the divorce, show your resolve and do not let her actions affect you in any way. I think you have this well thought out, and you aren't being rash, like others say. She broke he marriage contract, not you.


----------



## VFW

I think you need to take tomorrow off from the web, take the kids to the zoo, park or somewhere and just do something fun to chill out for the day. You are over stressing and need to give yourself a break. The legal process is going to take sometime, as well as selling the house, so you need to figure out fun days for you and the kids to lighten things up a little.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Tatsuhiko said:


> You're handling this great. You should take diphenhydramine (50-75 mg) to help with sleep. You can buy it at the dollar store very cheap, labeled as "Sleep Aid" or something like that. It is the same active ingredient as Benadryl or Tylenol PM. It's good because it's not habit forming. If this is still not enough, or if it loses efficacy over time, you should think about seeing a doctor and getting something more serious.


That can make him groggy as hell, he should go doc and get ambien and a good AD like Lexapro....worked wonders for me to help clear out stress and help me think straight and decisive.


----------



## JayOwen

VFW said:


> I think you need to take tomorrow off from the web, take the kids to the zoo, park or somewhere and just do something fun to chill out for the day. You are over stressing and need to give yourself a break. The legal process is going to take sometime, as well as selling the house, so you need to figure out fun days for you and the kids to lighten things up a little.


Thanks @VFW. I did in fact do exactly that this weekend. It was beautiful weather and the kids were a good distraction. Today was another visit to the therapist, which felt good and I think was productive for me. We still haven't gotten into couples counseling yet -- the program we're using it understaffed right now, so I may need to go outside it.

I'm meeting with the realtor tomorrow, the lawyer on Wednesday, though I've decided in both cases that it will be primarily information gathering rather than signing any commitments -- I'm still not feeling rested or rational enough to sign the dotted line for anything.

And my wife is giving me what I ask, I believe the gravity of the situation is now clear to her and she has realized how deeply she has screwed everything up. I see remorse, that helps for now. Who knows what next week will bring.

A few books have been recommended but wanted to ask if anyone had any others they wanted to throw out there?

Thanks all


----------



## farsidejunky

What are you doing for *you*, besides IC?


----------



## Graywolf2

JayOwen said:


> I believe the gravity of the situation is now clear to her and she has realized how deeply she has screwed everything up.


This is why you should always file for divorce even if you want to stay married. The faithful husband’s value is the security and stability they provide. That is often taken for granted. The only way to get the WW's attention is to let them know that it can be taken away.

If they think that the nice guy husband will never divorce then all is lost. Welcome one way open marriage.


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## TX-SC

Is she still in contact with the OM?


----------



## JayOwen

@farsidejunky what am I doing for myself ... I guess I gave myself person to stop work last week, though I guess that's not really true. I'm going to take a couple of days here soon and just travel to see my friends. it's tricky right now with work travel and the fact that my grandfather just passed (best week ever?) which I'll need to travel for as well. but I do plan to get some time just for myself soon here. My other "for me" pasttime -- craft beer -- is currently on hold, I dumped everything out last week, but maybe I'll treat myself to something this week.
@TX-SC no she is not. he tried calling her work a number of times today (presumably knowing that her phone is open to me now) she told me about it as soon as it happened. I am debating whether I need to knock on his door and remind him that it would be very easy for me to talk to his pastor and employer about what happened. I'm tabling it for now unless he persists.


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## GusPolinski

It's probably (past) time for you to confront OM. Let him know that any further attempts to contact your wife will result in full exposure of the affair to everyone in his circle -- including his own STBXW.

You're asking about books... which books has your wife been reading?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Tell his boss and his pastor. Tell him if he persists you will put an ad in the paper outing him.

Book wise get the MMSLP book
Linked to below. It's also available as a download at B&N and amazon. You have been replaced by what she perceives as a more alpha male. Look up Machieavelli'a (sic) posts. Do not take them lightly.


----------



## JayOwen

GusPolinski said:


> It's probably (past) time for you to confront OM. Let him know that any further attempts to contact your wife will result in full exposure of the affair to everyone in his circle -- including his own STBXW.
> 
> You're asking about books... which books has your wife been reading?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is reading Too Bad to Stay, Too Good to Leave -- recommended by a friend.

At the same time she bought me "Leave a Cheater, Gain a Life" though I haven't cracked it yet. Haven't read anything yet actually, though Surviving an Affair was recommended.

Re: confronting the dude. Having done so once on the night of discovery (waking half the neighborhood in the process I'm sure) to tell him it was over and once a few days later to verify when it started (his answer matched hers) where he tried to apologize with "This isn't my character...". I cut off that conversation and don't really want to start another one. But perhaps I can text him to make it clear there is no slack moving forward.

What I really need is for the idiot to drop is house to a price in line with the $/Sq Ft the rest of the houses in our neighborhood are selling for so he can get his ass out. But his stupidity is persistent in many things I guess...


----------



## jsmart

Don't table anything for this POS. He needs repercussions for fvcking your wife. If not for yourself, for your kids. This guy desecrated their mother. Yes she chased him but he willingly went for the ride seeing you and your kids all of the time. Now he's addicted to the easy wanton sex that he blatantly tried to pursue her days after Dday. 

Don't put your guard down. We have had countless BHs that thought their WW was honoring a R but she just took it deeper undercover. 

A woman that has been banging a dude for over a year gets addicted to the man. There are chemicals in sperm that help attach a woman to the man. With you being almost cut off, she's been on a steady diet of his elixir for quite some time. WWs may logically want to cut it off for the sake of the family but they're addicted. It's like a crack addict. And with him living next door and you traveling, getting a quick fix is VERY easy and tempting .

Personally I think you should still pursue the D. It has to be real to your WW. You can stop it down the road but she has to see that you're serious. You can even complete the divorce and then date and start a new untainted marriage. (if she earns your love.)


----------



## GusPolinski

JayOwen said:


> She is reading Too Bad to Stay, Too Good to Leave -- recommended by a friend.
> 
> At the same time she bought me "Leave a Cheater, Gain a Life" though I haven't cracked it yet. Haven't read anything yet actually, though Surviving an Affair was recommended.
> 
> Re: confronting the dude. Having done so once on the night of discovery (waking half the neighborhood in the process I'm sure) to tell him it was over and once a few days later to verify when it started (his answer matched hers) where he tried to apologize with "This isn't my character...". I cut off that conversation and don't really want to start another one. But perhaps I can text him to make it clear there is no slack moving forward.
> 
> What I really need is for the idiot to drop is house to a price in line with the $/Sq Ft the rest of the houses in our neighborhood are selling for so he can get his ass out. But his stupidity is persistent in many things I guess...


No texting w/ OM -- you need to re-confront face-to-face. Push the exposure angle, specially regarding his STBXW. Doesn't matter if you do it or not, he just needs to know that you will.

And what exactly has your wife told him? If she's not told him that it's over between then and to never attempt contact w/ her ever again then there's no point in you saying anything to him other than "Here, take her. She's all yours now."

Also, your wife's choice of reading material -- for the both of you -- is quite telling.

As for the friend that recommended her book -- is she married or divorced? Is she an adulteress as well?

And here's a lesson that you need to learn: 

You can't control what others do or don't do -- all you can ever control is how you choose to react to it.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

GusPolinski said:


> Also, your wife's choice of reading material -- for the both of you -- is quite telling.
> 
> As for the friend that recommended her book -- is she married or divorced? Is she an adulteress as well?


QFT.

I thought you said she was reading a book about infidelity?

This book is used to gauge whether to remain in your current relationship. 

I know I have encouraged you to be patient and take a deep breath. Looking at this, I might take that time away and deep breath _after_ I filed for divorce. 

"Wife, help me understand how I should read anything positive from your selection of this book as a means to heal our marriage from your infidelity, or the 'friend' who suggested it?"

I am sorry for your situation, Jay.


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## bandit.45

My opinion? Way too early for Marriage Counseling. Waaaaaaaaay to early. Your wife needs to go to IC for a few months and work on finding out why she has sh!t for boundaries and thought it was okay to drop a nuclear bomb on her family. 

You need to heal from your wounds. You just suffered a shotgun blast through your chest. You are still in triage and you haven't even moved to intensive care yet. You need to be out of I.C. and in your own hospital room overlooking a brick alley before you even think of going to counseling with her. Get my drift? 

And second, just because your wife tells you the affair is over and shows you OM's e-mails and all that? Doesn't mean sh!t.... unless you follow up and verify everything. Don't believe one fvcking thing your wife tells you, and even if you halfway believe something, you need to follow up.


----------



## JayOwen

@GusPolinski @farsidejunky

She bought them yesterday after returning from the work trip. It was recommended by her best friend (who was cheated on, I believe, or it came very close, now divorced) -- I will ask her what she thinks of it, I'm pretty confident there's no significance that she would choose this one over others, it was a recommendation by a person she trusts (one who both warned her that an attraction to this man was not a dangerous thing but also told her NOT to talk to me about it ... all of which is to say, not the greatest advice giver.) My wife is feeling her way through this -- still coming to terms with the reasons she has done this, but I believe she is taking steps, not throwing up more walls.

As for the book she bought for me, I know her, it was a self-punishing gesture. She is apologetic and has repeatedly assured me that she wants me to be happy. I believe it was her way of saying "maybe there's something in here that tell you if you could be." A weird apology if you will.

All of which is to say, I do not share your alarm in this regard. I may yet be proven wrong, but I think the motivations here are positive.

I know it's hard to convey these details via a forum post, but I do honestly trust her when she says she broke it off with him (starting that night in which she texted him, while I was standing there, that it was over and to not contact her again) and that she recognizes the stupidity and selfishness of her actions (her words).

That's potentially naive, but knowing the alarm bells that were going off in my head previously, there are none ringing now, I see genuine actions here. It does appear that the fog has lifted. 

That said, the risk of relapse is a question for another day.


----------



## bandit.45

It is too early to be trusting your WW. See, back when you were courting her and the two of your were falling in love, you gave each other your mutual trust as a gift to one another. 

Well, she took your trust and wiped her ass with it. So now, any trust that is given by you to her has to be earned. No more freebies. One day, years from now, she may be worthy once again for free trust, but that is a lonnnnnng way away.


----------



## farsidejunky

JayOwen said:


> It was recommended by her best friend (who was cheated on, I believe, or it came very close, now divorced) -- I will ask her what she thinks of it, I'm pretty confident there's no significance that she would choose this one over others, it was a recommendation by a person she trusts (one who both warned her that an attraction to this man was not a dangerous thing but also told her NOT to talk to me about it ... all of which is to say, not the greatest advice giver.)


Was it your WW that told you this about her friend?


----------



## Malaise

Why would she give you a book that promotes leaving a cheater ? The author is not big on R.


----------



## bandit.45

Malaise said:


> Why would she give you a book that promotes leaving a cheater ? The author is not big on R.


Desperation. Shes got her head up her ass.


----------



## GusPolinski

If the two of you -- as in BOTH of you -- are looking to reconcile then pick up and read Linda J. MacDonald's "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair". It's under 100 pages, so it's a pretty quick -- yet potent -- read. It's available on Amazon in several formats, including Kindle e-book.

Also, is your wife's stupid friend not aware that she's ALREADY cheated w/ OM?

It's also worth noting that her wanting you to be happy may very well mean that she wants you to be happy in the likely event of your divorce.

Again, the book titles are _screaming_ at me, and what I'm hearing is a very passive desire on her part to end the marriage.

It's just that she doesn't want to be the one to pull the trigger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TX-SC

I think you need to reconsider the book thing. The titles are very telling and she can't have overlooked that. As for the friend, have you and she sat down together with this person to discuss her role in all of this? I certainly would want to know why she thought it was okay for your wife to cheat, especially after her own issues with it. Is she pro marriage or has she now turned against it? Is she pro YOUR marriage? If not, she has to go. 

As for the OM, have your wife send him one more message requesting that there be no additional contact. In that letter, he should be notified that any additional contact is unwanted and will be considered harassment. As such, a restraining order will be obtained if he tries to contact her again. There must be no more contact. 

Lastly, how is your wife coping with the loss of her dreamy love interest that she was so hot for? Will you be able to live up to her expectations now? She was obviously stricken by him physically and even pursued him. How does she plan to get past that and become interested in you again?


----------



## JayOwen

I'll keep the book titles in mind, but for now I'm focusing on other things. Maybe it's a sign I'll look back on six months from now and realize I missed a red flag, perhaps I'm in denial, but I don't think that if there's a sign this is the one -- sorry to disagree with all here.

Re: the friend. She didn't encourage cheating, just told my wife to keep the attraction a secret from me and instead start talking to a therapist about it. Good advice mixed with the bad. The book title is apparently a continuation of this theme, a book for the betrayed spouse recommended to a cheater -- it's all the friend knows I guess. Who knows what her advice would have been had my wife confided in the affair (tell your husband but make sure to take pictures? [joke]). She's not a great influence but not a bad person either.

If all that sounds combative let me just reiterate that I appreciate all the support, I realize all of this advice comes from a positive place. I am continuing to take steps to protect myself, she is continuing to show signs of remorse. I will continue to take it all with a grain of salt. I'm having a good day today, even though I know tomorrow is probably going to be a bad one. In the meantime I've got three children watching so I'm just trying to keep an even keel. We're still only a week into this thing, it'll take a lot of time to sort through.


----------



## GusPolinski

You don't come across as combative, per se, but rather a bit _too_ obstinately naive.

Anyway, what are your plans right now w/ respect to filing/not filing for divorce?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I would put down the books and read this thread instead:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/52532-i-cheated-my-husband-left.html

This thread will give you a better idea of what real remorse looks like. Everytime I read about your wife I compare her to Tears and she comes up lacking in the remorse department. Which is why I still think you should push forward with divorce. She's basically sitting on the fence hoping a better deal will come along.


----------



## convert

GusPolinski said:


> If the two of you -- as in BOTH of you -- are looking to reconcile then pick up and read Linda J. MacDonald's "How Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair". It's under 100 pages, so it's a pretty quick -- yet potent -- read. It's available on Amazon in several formats, including Kindle e-book.
> 
> Also, is your wife's stupid friend not aware that she's ALREADY cheated w/ OM?
> 
> It's also worth noting that her wanting you to be happy may very well mean that she wants you to be happy in the likely event of your divorce.
> 
> *Again, the book titles are screaming at me, and what I'm hearing is a very passive desire on her part to end the marriage.
> 
> It's just that she doesn't want to be the one to pull the trigger.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree
that is the way I saw it.


----------



## JayOwen

GusPolinski said:


> You don't come across as combative, per se, but rather a bit _too_ obstinately naive.
> 
> Anyway, what are your plans right now w/ respect to filing/not filing for divorce?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm meeting with the lawyer on Wednesday -- I currently plan to use it as an informational session for two reasons:

1) A lawyer friend of mine has (just this evening) made an introduction for to another law firm that his (much larger, NYC-based) firm has a relationship with. I may not want to sign on with a firm that is not the best available.

2) I'm not exactly clear on what the immediate ramifications would be (aside from have the process started) vis a vis my children. If, for example, I need to move out before the "clock" starts on a mandated separation, I need to consider the ramifications for my kids rather than proceeding full steam ahead.

If I had to sum it up, I would say this: I am committed to moving forward. However, I am committed to moving forward as a tool towards figuring out if this can be salvaged. If yes, then I'll stop it. If no, then it's already going.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison

JayOwen said:


> She is reading Too Bad to Stay, Too Good to Leave -- recommended by a friend.
> 
> At the same time she bought me "Leave a Cheater, Gain a Life" though I haven't cracked it yet.


Good recommendation.



> Haven't read anything yet actually, though Surviving an Affair was recommended.


I would avoid any and all of the Harley books. I had that one and His Needs, Her Needs. Waste of money. When I find my copies - somewhere in the attic - I plan to burn them so they don't fall in some unsuspecting newbie's hands and mess their life up.



> Re: confronting the dude. Having done so once on the night of discovery (waking half the neighborhood in the process I'm sure) to tell him it was over and once a few days later to verify when it started (his answer matched hers) where he tried to apologize with "This isn't my character...". I cut off that conversation and don't really want to start another one. But perhaps I can text him to make it clear there is no slack moving forward.


I think ignoring him is in your best interest. Any conversation that has anything to do with him should be between you and your wife, especially if you hope to reconcile at some point. 



> What I really need is for the idiot to drop is house to a price in line with the $/Sq Ft the rest of the houses in our neighborhood are selling for so he can get his ass out. But his stupidity is persistent in many things I guess...


Make him as not your problem as you can. You can't very well get him out of your life by periodically confronting him. Pretend he doesn't exist, make your wife put in the effort to convince you she's not in contact with him, and maybe he'll oblige you and effectively cease to exist at some point! 

-10th Engineer Harrison


----------



## ButtPunch

JayOwen said:


> @GusPolinski @farsidejunky
> 
> She bought them yesterday after returning from the work trip. It was recommended by her best friend (who was cheated on, I believe, or it came very close, now divorced) -- I will ask her what she thinks of it, I'm pretty confident there's no significance that she would choose this one over others, it was a recommendation by a person she trusts (one who both warned her that an attraction to this man was not a dangerous thing but also told her NOT to talk to me about it ... all of which is to say, not the greatest advice giver.) My wife is feeling her way through this -- still coming to terms with the reasons she has done this, but I believe she is taking steps, not throwing up more walls.
> 
> As for the book she bought for me, I know her, it was a self-punishing gesture. She is apologetic and has repeatedly assured me that she wants me to be happy. I believe it was her way of saying "maybe there's something in here that tell you if you could be." A weird apology if you will.
> 
> All of which is to say, I do not share your alarm in this regard. I may yet be proven wrong, but I think the motivations here are positive.
> 
> I know it's hard to convey these details via a forum post, but I do honestly trust her when she says she broke it off with him (starting that night in which she texted him, while I was standing there, that it was over and to not contact her again) and that she recognizes the stupidity and selfishness of her actions (her words).
> 
> That's potentially naive, but knowing the alarm bells that were going off in my head previously, there are none ringing now, I see genuine actions here. It does appear that the fog has lifted.
> 
> That said, the risk of relapse is a question for another day.


Don't take this the wrong way but reading this makes me think you are 
desperate to buy her bullsh*t. It's way to early to be recommitting yourself.


----------



## ABHale

Hey man, just take your time with this. This is your life not ours. Just make sure when the time comes when the decision has to be made, that it is one you will not regret. 

The biggest problem for me would be that she planned this out for a long time then asked about a open marriage to cover herself. She is the one that pursued with no reguard for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## straightshooter

Jay

*I know it's hard to convey these details via a forum post, but I do honestly trust her when she says she broke it off with him (starting that night in which she texted him, while I was standing there, that it was over and to not contact her again) and that she recognizes the stupidity and selfishness of her actions (her words).*

From your most recent post, I guess he did not get or accept the message because you stated he has tried to contact her i think twice in the last 24 hours. So I guess its time to start notifying his work or the pastor or whoever you need to so he gets the message. This guy is not going to stop wanting to put his **** in your wife again until he is convinced it aint going to happen and with him next door the more times he tries the better the chance she will relapse because she is going to have plenty of opportunity.

And you are way ahead of yourself spending money on MC until you are CONVINCED this thing is stopped and not because she told you. In this OM mind its not stopped. You think he was calling her to discuss the weather, and since she is aware you can see the phone you better be looking religiously for a burner phone.


----------



## JayOwen

All,

Just wanted to say I'll probably taking a break for this forum.

You have a lot of positive vibes in here, but there's also a lot of militancy, and maybe that's called for in most cases of infidelity. And maybe I'm being naive that my situation is somehow different. But I find myself spending a lot of time being frustrated that a lot of the time it sounds like "Yes, but the manual clearly states..."

And I know that's not what you're saying. I know you're putting a lot of thought into your comments, and you're looking out for me in the best way a bunch of Internet strangers can. And I thank you for that, I truly do. But I think I may have reached the limit of what you can do to help me or, at the least, what I'm willing to hear.

And I promise that should I be proven to be an idiot I WILL come back here to say "Okay, guys, you were right...". (if only so that others may, in the future, be more inclined to take heed).

But for now, I'm going to clock out and focus on the things that I see as important. To be clear, that is NOT forgiving her or even accepting that this is over. It means taking care of myself (for example, I haven't lifted in a week now which I will remedy today), getting my work back on track, making sure the kids are happy and not too out of sorts, and spending whatever time I have left over honestly trying to figure out whether or not I even want this thing to work out.

Thank you guys. Maybe I'll be back, but hopefully not.


----------



## GusPolinski

JayOwen said:


> All,
> 
> Just wanted to say I'll probably taking a break for this forum.
> 
> You have a lot of positive vibes in here, but there's also a lot of militancy, and maybe that's called for in most cases of infidelity. And maybe I'm being naive that my situation is somehow different. But I find myself spending a lot of time being frustrated that a lot of the time it sounds like "Yes, but the manual clearly states..."
> 
> And I know that's not what you're saying. I know you're putting a lot of thought into your comments, and you're looking out for me in the best way a bunch of Internet strangers can. And I thank you for that, I truly do. But I think I may have reached the limit of what you can do to help me or, at the least, what I'm willing to hear.
> 
> And I promise that should I be proven to be an idiot I WILL come back here to say "Okay, guys, you were right...". (if only so that others may, in the future, be more inclined to take heed).
> 
> But for now, I'm going to clock out and focus on the things that I see as important. To be clear, that is NOT forgiving her or even accepting that this is over. It means taking care of myself (for example, I haven't lifted in a week now which I will remedy today), getting my work back on track, making sure the kids are happy and not too out of sorts, and spending whatever time I have left over honestly trying to figure out whether or not I even want this thing to work out.
> 
> Thank you guys. Maybe I'll be back, but hopefully not.


/sigh

You're going to have to learn the hard way.

Best of luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tatsuhiko

This happens a lot in here, Jay. A guy comes in and gets a bunch of "tough love" advice from men who have his best interests at heart. But it's ugly stuff that he doesn't want to hear. His situation is different, after all. His wife is different. He starts to try to "nice" his wife back into loving him. She instead loses even more respect for him. Her attraction for him plummets and she even starts to resent him and his weakness. Ironic, because she told herself all her life that she wanted a nice guy. Pretty soon she's back to the OM or even pursuing another man. Good luck to you. I hope you come back with good news someday.


----------



## OnTheRocks

We have seen it time and time again. I think the vast majority of new members have the same reaction ("but my situation is different"). Guess what? Most of them figure out it's actually not. Good luck to you, though. I hope it works out for the best.


----------



## browser

JayOwen said:


> And I promise that should I be proven to be an idiot I WILL come back here to say "Okay, guys, you were right...".


----------



## VFW

JayOwen said:


> Thank you guys. Maybe I'll be back, but hopefully not.


 I would ask that you please come back periodically to give us an update and as a help to others that may be looking for alternatives. As you know you can play this anyway that you desire as you are the only one who has a stake in this race. I would caution you about making long term commitment up front. Take your time and be cautious of the situation. I would still see the attorney, you don't have to file but it is good to know your rights for planning purposes. Statistically the chances for reconciliation is not good, but that doesn't mean that it never happens. I hope that in your case she realizes what she has done and is contrite. Best of luck to you and your family.


----------



## Chaparral

GusPolinski said:


> /sigh
> 
> You're going to have to learn the hard way.
> 
> Best of luck to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Most do. Most think hanging on for dear life will save the day. Ironically speaking though, trying to finesse their way out of adultery usually works..........by ending in divorce. Life is better without a cheater to worry over.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

JayOwen said:


> Thank you guys. Maybe I'll be back, but hopefully not.


Best luck to you, yours path to take....at the end of the day is just a marriage, a relationship between 2 people, a choice....no one is going to die over it, look after your health and well being and you will be ok.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison

Tatsuhiko said:


> This happens a lot in here, Jay. A guy comes in and gets a bunch of "tough love" advice from men who have his best interests at heart. But it's ugly stuff that he doesn't want to hear. His situation is different, after all. His wife is different. He starts to try to "nice" his wife back into loving him. She instead loses even more respect for him. Her attraction for him plummets and she even starts to resent him and his weakness. Ironic, because she told herself all her life that she wanted a nice guy. Pretty soon she's back to the OM or even pursuing another man. Good luck to you. I hope you come back with good news someday.


It's a shame that Jay didn't stick around long enough or explore other threads enough to know what you've said here is the truth. I'm living proof that forgiving to soon and thinking wishfully will only guarantee you YEARS of heartache, even in the best circumstances. I recovered my marriage after a long-term low-key affair that I discovered almost 15 years ago. It took the better part of 10 years to accomplish that. I'm glad NOW, but if I had it to do over again? Heck no. The affair will always cast a shadow on your relationship for the rest of your life.

I still struggle, in fact, with feelings of having wasted my time posting on threads like this. But I sure hope Jay comes back. 

As for reading material, I would strongly recommend Frank Pittman's books "Private Lies" and "Grow Up!"

-10th Engineer Harrison.


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## straightshooter

Thats what makes this infidelity **** some crazy.

Now here's a guy, that be you OP, who sits next door while his wife spends her time in OM's house "training", and then when he catches her takes some steps forward and instead of putting in place some protection for himself he goes ghost. 

OP, so if I understand it right, you are now living next door still to OM who despite NC communication is still trying to get in bed again with your wife, and you have decided to "trust" her with no safeguards in place . No VAR, just her word she will not slip next door while you travel and resume the affair.

Just do not be too embarrassed to come back once you get whacked again. And unless this OM, who you state is more her type physically, gets hit by car, he will stay at it and you will be clueless.

Good luck. I apologize for being harsh but you will need it


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## TAMAT

JayOwen,

Sorry you are in this position and I understand that you have no good choices left in your life. It's not like choosing which cruse line to take, more like choosing which concentration camp.

You need to get away from the OM as there is a very large chance your WW will relapse with him, and the pain will be 10X what you have now. 

Tamat


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## bandit.45

Hopefully the seeds have been planted.


----------



## samyeagar

bandit.45 said:


> Hopefully the seeds have been planted.


Fitness Bro already kinda did that.


----------



## bandit.45

samyeagar said:


> Fitness Bro already kinda did that.


Ah hahahaha....I saw what you did there!!!


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## rzmpf

I guess OP hopes that the affair will truly end when Fitness Bro gets his house sold. Which may be true but may not happen for some time. Although no one knows where he will be moving in that case. Maybe closer to her office....

But in either case, it will certainly not end his mind revolving about it. If he wants to live like that then good luck to him, he is going to need it badly.


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## bandit.45

I think OP should look into the Hotwife/Cuckold lifestyle. Might as well.


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## Kettlebelle

I'm no relationship expert. I would only say that if you have to track someone's movements that you have already lost this battle. Sounds like you have tried to be supportive in your own way through the relationship, and she had classic low self-esteem of needing lots of attention. It would've happened any way, and if you move from Fitness Bro she will find another Bro. Sounds like a classic narcissist that needs constant ego stroking. That will never change.

You do you. If you must stay with her, break away from her emotionally and mentally. Take the kids and stay busy with them. Find a friend who can keep you busy. Pour your emotion into your next book or project. Desensitize yourself to her. But if you can leave her please do it.


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## browser

bandit.45 said:


> I think OP should look into the Hotwife/Cuckold lifestyle. Might as well.


No wonder people don't stick around.


----------



## doureallycare2

Hi. Not sure if you are still on or not but here is my 2 cents for what its worth.

First let me say I'm so sorry you and your children are going through this! Its a destroyer of your emotional balance, peace, happiness like no other thing, even death.

I first came to this site several years ago in the midst of my separation/divorce looking for validation I think. I already knew what I was going to do but I had no outlet to say how much I was hurt, how confusing my emotions were, rejection, depression, loss etc....

Brief synopsis:
Married 36 years, husband Loved me but couldn't remain faithful, he had addictive personalty that turned from alcohol to sex.

*Me*-( healing): I joined a Divorce care support group (highly recommend) while separated. Have now been a facilitator for the last 3 years.

*YOU*: Why are you on here? What other steps are you taking for your mental health (not the marriage, not the family but just for you). Believe it or not that is the most important step. Its important that your decision to stay in the marriage or get out is made with you being in the best mental heath you can be in at this very difficult time. At times of stress our brain and body makes alterations that changes things: like sleep patterns, stamina, hunger, concentration etc. Our brain may be putting up to 80% of its capacity in what they call survival mode. Its therefor very important to take measures to put yourself back into balance as much as possible. Do not think that just "fixing the relationship" or getting out of it will do this.

*Your spouse:* You can not fix her problems (believe me I know)! As much as they may cry out for help to you, you cant. Don't confuse remorse, self pity, tears, apologies, proclamations of loving you more or loving you less, etc. with her changing her actions. Her infidelity has come at a cost. The cost is trust, sorrow, family well being (and I could go on and on). Also the cost may even be that she opened a door she is emotionally/physically unable to close. Yes, even as much as you or even she may want to change her actions or her heart, it may not be possible unless she is willing to put in the work (and they really seldom are). My ex went to years of therapy, and it worked for about 10 years only to be a demon that kept resurfacing in the latter years of our marriage.

Believe it or not the real negative here is going to be that she is the mother of your children, so her welfare is always going to be a concern to you as far as that its of concern to your children.

I'm not sure what else I can say that might be of help to you. No matter what this is not something that is going to "just go away". You are on a new road in your life, an unpleasant one that you did not ask to go down. Sometimes I think that's the hardest thing to accept- our lack of control in our De-railment.

God Bless,

Doyoureallycare


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## bandit.45

​


browser said:


> No wonder people don't stick around.


Well you know what! He needs to hear this stuff! Why do we have to coddle people? That is what SI and Loveshack are for.


----------



## browser

bandit.45 said:


> Well you know what! He needs to hear this stuff!


Yeah that'll fix everything


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## straightshooter

OK, folks.


He has made his choice. We all know living next door to guy who is banging your wife and putting head in sand with business travel to boot is a recipe for disaster for him whether he returns or not.


No need to start attacking each other as usually happens unfortunately when they want to play ostrich and the posters start blaming different things for him leaving.


He showed up with a problem 9 guy next door banging his wife), asked for advice, got all kinds of advice, and decided to play the pick me game and hope for the best and believe what she tells him.
His choice. He lives with it. He's an adult.


----------



## bandit.45

*He's left us and done run offt with SI. *


----------



## just got it 55

GusPolinski said:


> /sigh
> 
> You're going to have to learn the hard way.
> 
> Best of luck to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @GusPolinski What do you think the over under on time will be when he comes back?

Sorry Jay for this sh!t sandwich 

55


----------



## JohnA

@Quality are you sure this is the same poster as on other boards? He stated he meant her 6 or 7 years ago and I don't recall him discussing another POSM.

Disregard I misread the post you where addressing another poster.


----------



## GusPolinski

just got it 55 said:


> @GusPolinski What do you think the over under on time will be when he comes back?
> 
> Sorry Jay for this sh!t sandwich
> 
> 55


I'd say anywhere between 3 and 12 months, and that's if he comes back at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## maritalloneliness

I'm so sorry that you are going through this as many of us have. The only advice I can give you which will probably be the opposite of what most people here would give is not rush to a decision. Take time to evaluate your own needs in this relationship. The trust is gone and never to be what it was. It's too raw right now and the feelings of hate, bewilderment, fear, love and confusion will be a roller-coaster. There's almost a relief that you feel to know that we're not crazy from reading all the signs. Go back and start doing the things you gave up for the relationship. What I found out for me was that I continually placed my needs on the burner while I took care of him and my sons. I wasn't asking for my needs to be met even intimately. I was being a martyr and not even noticing I was resentful of the whole situation. I decided to forgive my husband but now I have expressed clear rules and boundaries that he seems to respect but the mistrust is still present after 5 years. So, take time for yourself and let her experience how life would change without your relationship. This is going to be a hard, painful journey but be strong. 

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

Speaking as a moderator:
@Quality and @10th Engineer Harrison, let's show the OP respect by taking the thread jack to a new thread. 

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.


----------



## SunCMars

straightshooter said:


> OK, folks.
> 
> 
> He has made his choice. We all know living next door to guy who is banging your wife and putting head in sand with business travel to boot is a recipe for disaster for him whether he returns or not.
> 
> 
> No need to start attacking each other as usually happens unfortunately when they want to play ostrich and the posters start blaming different things for him leaving.
> 
> 
> He showed up with a problem guy next door banging his wife), asked for advice, got all kinds of advice, and decided to play the pick me game and hope for the best and believe what she tells him.
> His choice. *He lives with it.* He's an adult.


Yea, @straightshooter he lives with it. He knows his wife has only two tablespoons of love for him.

Why only two tablespoons? That is her full output of love for others. The remainder is reserved for self-love.

Yes, he has to live with it. But guess what? Now that he has opened his front door to us, showed us the inside of HIS life, *it is now part of Our memory and Our life.* 

Those that have empathy are quickly rewarded with an ample supply of sadness, and sorrow.....for others. The pain comes from the sympathetic nerves, those that respond negatively to injustice and selfishness.

*Now, we have to live with it*, since we are invested in his failing stock. A stock with no buyers and no chance of value rebound.

*WRONG,* if he dumps HER stock and takes the loss, HIS stock will gradually rise at the same rate that his lips turns upward, forming a smile..


----------



## TAMAT

Sadly JayOwen will sleep with a grenade under his pillow, until it blows up, I can't imagine what nightmares he is having every time he goes to bed. 

I do remember how I felt when I had nightmares about my Ws affairs, they felt very real when I woke up and were like a repeat of dday at the instant of discovery.

But lets not lose sight of the fact that his decision is one of the most difficult decisions any of us will have to make, and we can't blame him for trying to preserve a life, any life, for his children.

Tamat


----------



## JohnA

He knows the score now about his wife's FOO issues now and is making a choice. As long as he has strong boundaries on when to cut ties it is his call and might succeed. I wish him joy and success.


----------



## turnera

Jay, I'm confused. Are you divorcing or not?


----------



## JayOwen

All,

Been a few weeks, thought I would update. But first, I see from a couple of the responses here that I made the right decision to stop visiting this forum. Seriously, cuckold jokes about a guy already in the gutter? That’s not tough love, that’s just being a d1ckhead. And, for the record, I didn’t post anywhere else after this, not sure why you though I was on SI. This place was enough…

Anyway. I promised to come back if it blew up in my face which… hasn’t happened. But I’m posting anyway because I feel some obligation to not leave a story unfinished – not that my story is finished, but whatever…

In short, things aren’t great, but they’re not terrible either, so I’m taking it slow for now.

I’ve seen the lawyer, I have the papers ready, but I’m sitting on them. I considered a post-nup but full papers seemed more logical. What’s holding me back is that I just can’t bring myself to break it to my children until I’m 100% confident that I’m doing what’s best for them. After all, things (to outward appearances) aren't terrible in our home right now.

The wife is aware of the papers and understands that I’m on the cusp. She is desperate for me to stay. She’s in solo counseling now, we tried marriage counseling twice until it became clear that my pain was not a priority for the counselor. Kudos to whoever correctly called out marriage counseling was a waste.

I’m still seeing my own therapist, but I’ll probably stop soon – I don’t really have anything to work on. Yeah, I’m stressed, but that’s not really the cause of this, is it? I only started because I thought we both had work to do. Turns out it was just her!

For my wife’s part, she’s having panic attacks and prolonged periods of crying. I feel for her, though it’s her own fault. She now realizes how horribly she ****ed things up for nothing – the issues were largely in her head and all the justifications really boiled down to: she wanted to be selfish. Not really any way to make up for that.

I'm also feeling better that I’ve got the full timeline now. I guess it doesn't change anything, it's a pretty binary situation at its core, but it helps for me to know. Basic gist is that it began slightly before the “open marriage” talk, but full sex didn’t happen until after. Lasted about two month, a dozen or so encounters escalating in risk of discovery. She realizes now she had no control and could not stop. My discovery proved to be a relief for her, she went cold turkey and it ended that night – I am confident in that now.

I opted not to pursue selling our own home, I won’t endure a financial loss on top of everything else. He’s dropping the price on his, and inventory is low, so hopefully he’s gone soon. It certainly poses a risk of relapse, but at this point that would just make my decision a lot quicker. In truth, I’m not worried about short term – she’s too terrified that I’ll walk out the door and now knows she can’t keep it hidden from me for long if at all.

Instead I find myself pondering more long-term questions: Will she do it again ten years from now with someone else? Can I ever be happy again? Is the risk of either worth sticking around?

For now, I’m approaching it analytically – a “score” for each day based on how I’m feeling about her/us. I’ll give it maybe a year, if the trendline remains firmly in the “****” category then I’m out. We’ll see, hard to imagine it’ll ever get back to “average” much less “good” but I’d like to walk away knowing I tried, it seems like a decent upside if I can honestly say I’m doing okay at that point.

In the meantime, the kids are the only reason I’m still here at all, not sure if that was clear in my earlier postings. And since my wife is desperate to fix this, if I can ever feel okay with her again then maybe I owe it them to let it happen for their sake. We’ll see.

So if there’s a TL;DR it’s this: nothing much is changed, but I'm a tad calmer while I sort out what's the best option for my future self and the kids...


----------



## ButtPunch

JayOwen said:


> All,
> 
> For now, I’m approaching it analytically – a “score” for each day based on how I’m feeling about her/us. I’ll give it maybe a year, if the trendline remains firmly in the “****” category then I’m out. We’ll see, hard to imagine it’ll ever get back to “average” much less “good” but I’d like to walk away knowing I tried, it seems like a decent upside if I can honestly say I’m doing okay at that point.
> .


Better give it longer than that

Takes at least 3-5 years for you to recover.


----------



## bandit.45

I don't think you are a cuckold. I think what you are doing now is fine. 

Set yourself a deadline. If she hasn't done the things you have expected of her by that deadline, then you can reassess and make a final decision. 

Whatever you do, don't forgive her. Make her earn your forgiveness by changing and figuring out why she is so fvcked up. 

Has she shared any breakthroughs with you. Has she come up with any "whys"?


----------



## Lostinthought61

Jay you can't stop people with wild imaginations, but i am glad you came back and shared your perspective on this, at the end of the day it is your life and your happiness that matters, i suspect based on your words that had you been child-less you would not be giving her a second chance. Am i right? 

i think waiting is not a bad thing and giving yourself a timeline of waiting sounds appropriate, at this point the ball is in her court to play and she can either serve you or serve herself. good luck and stick around, pay it forward and help someone else sometime.


----------



## samyeagar

JayOwen said:


> All,
> 
> Been a few weeks, thought I would update. But first, I see from a couple of the responses here that I made the right decision to stop visiting this forum. Seriously, cuckold jokes about a guy already in the gutter? That’s not tough love, that’s just being a d1ckhead. And, for the record, I didn’t post anywhere else after this, not sure why you though I was on SI. This place was enough…
> 
> Anyway. I promised to come back if it blew up in my face which… hasn’t happened. But I’m posting anyway because I feel some obligation to not leave a story unfinished – not that my story is finished, but whatever…
> 
> In short, things aren’t great, but they’re not terrible either, so I’m taking it slow for now.
> 
> I’ve seen the lawyer, I have the papers ready, but I’m sitting on them. I considered a post-nup but full papers seemed more logical. What’s holding me back is that I just can’t bring myself to break it to my children until I’m 100% confident that I’m doing what’s best for them. After all, things (to outward appearances) aren't terrible in our home right now.
> 
> The wife is aware of the papers and understands that I’m on the cusp. She is desperate for me to stay. She’s in solo counseling now, we tried marriage counseling twice until it became clear that my pain was not a priority for the counselor. Kudos to whoever correctly called out marriage counseling was a waste.
> 
> I’m still seeing my own therapist, but I’ll probably stop soon – I don’t really have anything to work on. Yeah, I’m stressed, but that’s not really the cause of this, is it? I only started because I thought we both had work to do. Turns out it was just her!
> 
> For my wife’s part, she’s having panic attacks and prolonged periods of crying. I feel for her, though it’s her own fault. She now realizes how horribly she ****ed things up for nothing – the issues were largely in her head and all the justifications really boiled down to: she wanted to be selfish. Not really any way to make up for that.
> 
> I'm also feeling better that I’ve got the full timeline now. I guess it doesn't change anything, it's a pretty binary situation at its core, but it helps for me to know. Basic gist is that it began slightly before the “open marriage” talk, but full sex didn’t happen until after. Lasted about two month, a dozen or so encounters escalating in risk of discovery. *She realizes now she had no control and could not stop*. My discovery proved to be a relief for her, she went cold turkey and it ended that night – I am confident in that now.
> 
> I opted not to pursue selling our own home, I won’t endure a financial loss on top of everything else. He’s dropping the price on his, and inventory is low, so hopefully he’s gone soon. It certainly poses a risk of relapse, but at this point that would just make my decision a lot quicker. In truth, I’m not worried about short term – she’s too terrified that I’ll walk out the door and now knows she can’t keep it hidden from me for long if at all.
> 
> Instead I find myself pondering more long-term questions: *Will she do it again ten years from now with someone else?* Can I ever be happy again? Is the risk of either worth sticking around?
> 
> For now, I’m approaching it analytically – a “score” for each day based on how I’m feeling about her/us. I’ll give it maybe a year, if the trendline remains firmly in the “****” category then I’m out. We’ll see, hard to imagine it’ll ever get back to “average” much less “good” but I’d like to walk away knowing I tried, it seems like a decent upside if I can honestly say I’m doing okay at that point.
> 
> In the meantime, the kids are the only reason I’m still here at all, not sure if that was clear in my earlier postings. And since my wife is desperate to fix this, if I can ever feel okay with her again then maybe I owe it them to let it happen for their sake. We’ll see.
> 
> So if there’s a TL;DR it’s this: nothing much is changed, but I'm a tad calmer while I sort out what's the best option for my future self and the kids...



You already answered your question in red above if you allow either you or her to actually believe what is in blue above.


----------



## SunCMars

You are a good man. She sounds contrite and is doing the right things. But this may be the panic and hysterical bonding that we hear about.

I could not do do this...Reconciliation. I could forgive her, especially if I loved her {as you obviously do}. 

I would "Love her for life.....from afar."

I do not heal well, scar tissue never sets in.

Good Luck...Happy Thanksgiving. You still have a wife to celebrate with. Good for you...Hope is Eternal.


----------



## JayOwen

@Xenote Re: children. Yes, if we were child-less I'm pretty confident the papers would already be in and I'd be elsewhere. Then again, who knows, I always thought I'd be out the door regardless.
@bandit.45 Re: Why? She hasn't figured out anything that makes sense to me, she's starting to accept that perhaps she wanted to be out of the marriage because she disliked the "person I had become" and there was no longer any love in our marriage (largely her fault, but whatevs). When I asked, she said divorce never seemed like an option for her because of the kids. So she felt trapped or something? Maybe combined with mid-life crisis, am I still attractive insecurities, and a slippery slope spurred on by FOO triggers. Just a ****ed-up jumbalaya of personal issues I guess, maybe she'll figure it out eventually...


----------



## farsidejunky

Thank you for the update. It would be nice to hear where you stand every so often.

The beauty of your situation is that your mind is in the right place, and you don't have to be in a rush to make a decision. That may be selfish on your part, but considering the selfishness of her actions, I think that's okay for you.

Good luck, brother.


----------



## bandit.45

JayOwen said:


> @Xenote Re: children. Yes, if we were child-less I'm pretty confident the papers would already be in and I'd be elsewhere. Then again, who knows, I always thought I'd be out the door regardless.
> 
> @bandit.45 *Re: Why? She hasn't figured out anything that makes sense to me, she's starting to accept that perhaps she wanted to be out of the marriage because she disliked the "person I had become" and there was no longer any love in our marriage (largely her fault, but whatevs). When I asked, she said divorce never seemed like an option for her because of the kids. So she felt trapped or something? Maybe combined with mid-life crisis, am I still attractive insecurities, and a slippery slope spurred on by FOO triggers. Just a ****ed-up jumbalaya of personal issues I guess, maybe she'll figure it out eventually.*..


It's called the "fog" and is a fairly normal stage. Most waywards almost never feel any real remorse early on after the start of R. Right now, your wife feels guilt and shame and embarrassment, but if she puts in the hard work with her IC, and if she has an IC who is worth a sh!t, then eventually after a few months you will see remorse start to set in. Right now her head is a hive of bees. 

Go to amazon and download and demand she read _Not Just Friends _by Shirley Glass and _After the Affair_ by Janis Abrahms Spring. These are good books that will give her some insight into why she decided to throw a nuclear bomb on the marriage.


----------



## Chris Taylor

JayOwen said:


> All,
> 
> we tried marriage counseling twice until it became clear that my pain was not a priority for the counselor.


Sorry, but you sound like my wife. She expected it to be all about me being the bad guy but the MC really delved into both of us in the first two meetings. After that my wife stopped going.

Teo sessions at marriage counseling is just batting practice.

Our second marriage counselor was much better and really helped. Either give it time or find another MC.


----------



## Satya

JayOwen said:


> Lasted about two month, a dozen or so encounters escalating in risk of discovery. *She realizes now she had no control and could not stop.*


Can you elaborate on the bold, please? I don't understand what you mean. How did she have no control over her own actions?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## JayOwen

Satya said:


> How did she have no control over her own actions?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


That is a reference to the fact that the relationship was getting increasingly complex when she intended only something simple (not that that makes it any better). What was first physical became then emotional as well, she tried to break it off multiple times only to relapse days later, at first it was only when I was out of town then it became whenever they could find opportunity, they started meeting in increasingly risky places (their workplaces, public parking lots in a small town, etc). All of this in spite of the fact that she was ostensibly "deciding" what to do. In actuality the only decision being made was to given in the brain chemistry. It's not meant as an excuse, quite the opposite -- she didn't know herself then, hard for me to believe she knows herself now.


----------



## turnera

So she was basically a drug addict. Which is what we usually tell people about cheaters - they're high on their drug.

I'm encouraged that you two are trying to make it work. I will only add that, now, you should be focusing on what a GOOD, HEALTHY marriage looks like. Have you two read His Needs Her Needs yet? That's the first thing you should do.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

I think you are handling this well. I encourage you to not fall for any manipulation or blame-shifting, should it happen.

For the record, nobody thought you were a cuckold. Everyone who responded to you had your best interests at heart. Some people were just trying to light a fire under you--make you angry--to motivate you to assert yourself. Their harshness was only a manifestation of their vicarious desire to see you get tough in a way that they should have with their own spouse.

We're all pulling for you.


----------



## harrybrown

has she stopped all contact with the POSOM?

is she working to pay for some counseling from affair recovery.com? 

You can find them online.

She is not the woman you thought you loved and married.


when the kids are older, if you stay, then leave. she will do it again.


----------



## GusPolinski

JayOwen said:


> @Xenote Re: children. Yes, if we were child-less I'm pretty confident the papers would already be in and I'd be elsewhere. Then again, who knows, I always thought I'd be out the door regardless.
> 
> @bandit.45 Re: Why? She hasn't figured out anything that makes sense to me, she's starting to accept that perhaps she wanted to be out of the marriage because she disliked the "person I had become" and there was no longer any love in our marriage (largely her fault, but whatevs). When I asked, she said divorce never seemed like an option for her because of the kids. So she felt trapped or something? Maybe combined with mid-life crisis, am I still attractive insecurities, and a slippery slope spurred on by FOO triggers. Just a ****ed-up jumbalaya of personal issues I guess, maybe she'll figure it out eventually...


She did it because she _wanted_ to do it, and then she _kept_ doing it because she wanted to _continue_ doing it.

Additionally, any fear or apprehension that she might have felt at the prospect of losing her family, home, and marriage -- and, in the process, irrevocably destroying her children's family unit -- wasn't enough to dissuade her from doing it.

...and that's it.


----------



## straightshooter

jay,

At this point there is no more need for advice I do not think. as for any of BH, it all boils down to IF you can get over it, and in the long run do not count on just staying together for the kids will be the medicine that fixes it.

While never accepting her behavior, what anyone who stays MUST accept is that just like there is never a 100% guarantee it could never happen in the first place (we all thought differently) no matter what you do or do not do there is no guarantee it cannot happen again and I believe that that is the key issue you and all of us who stayed have to live with. No matter how much you work on the marriage, which is great, no matter how much therapy she or you get, it can happen again.

Some guys can live with that and some guys cannot and you should not set a specific time limit. Nothing wrong with what you are doing but I would not throw out the thought of a surprise polygraph at some point to make sure with your travel and him next door that her addiction does not occur again.

And if he moves not a great distance away I would not take that to mean you are totally in the clear. Her panic and fear now is because you actually have shown some real potential consequences. I hope you protect yourself.


----------



## Malaise

She did it and had no control over her actions...

And she stopped cold turkey?


----------



## JohnA

Hi Jay, 

Good to hear from you, I think you are in a good place right now and your response to some posters was great. I stated in my last post you know what her issues are, you are learning more about them and you have an exit plan in place. Triple A rating. Try reading @Uptown posts. He posts mostly about BPD but you will see any over lapping patterns. This forum has few posters like him with experience with CSA. Try looking on line for specific forums on this topic. 

Hope to hear from you inmthe future. 

Be well


----------



## RWB

turnera said:


> *She was basically a drug addict*.


To the uninitiated this statement, this "explanation" would appear way out there, even a might silly. 

However, after seeing it first hand from my WW... spot on. Her total disregard for my/her health, unwanted pregnancy, total destruction of multiple families, 25+ years of a marriage/home/children... all to have her attention stroked by another man who she knew was just looking for another woman to bed. 

Hell, years later when I finally caught her in another affair (the last), I asked her why? _"You got away clean (unknown) with your first affair. You even said that you knew it was wrong wanted to stop but couldn't get out. Why would you risk another, and then another?"_

Actual words etched in my brain. _"l guess I was addicted to the attention."_


----------



## harrybrown

Be sure and do DNA tests on your kids, especially the baby.

the neighbor is too close and too easy for her to reach out whenever she wants.

So sorry. Hope you get your D fast.

She could not even think of her kids.


----------



## browser

Tatsuhiko said:


> For the record, nobody thought you were a cuckold.





bandit.45 said:


> I think OP should look into the Hotwife/Cuckold lifestyle. Might as well.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

@browser, I can't speak for bandit.45, but not everything is meant to be taken literally.


----------



## BetrayedDad

SunCMars said:


> He took the love of my life and threw back a lemon grenade in my wife's slit trench.


Wrong. 

The "love of his life" slipped cyanide in his rations while he was in the bunker defending her.

He can retaliate against the enemy if he wishes but his enemies are both foreign and domestic.


----------



## Yeswecan

SunCMars said:


> Your words: she denied you love and intimacy for roughly 3 years. The occasional romp during this period. You attributed it to the third baby and the pregnancy weight that she had a hard time losing.
> 
> But it was more than that. She had lost the desire for you and what you could offer and gave it to a neighbor.
> 
> You put her infatuation and her grooming him [each other] into a month time frame. I suspect that it was going on much longer.
> 
> And her being in Academia.....this may not be her first rodeo, after your marriage??
> 
> This is what hurts the most. She longed for this affair. She plotted and planned it. She had fantasies about this.
> 
> How cruel of her to offer up an open marriage. She has no boundaries.
> 
> She has three young children and pulls this crap. Where is the maturity, the common sense. This is letting the VJ rule the big head. You did nothing to deserve this.....from what you have chronicled.
> 
> She does not deserve a 2d chance. No way Jose. Why? Because of her age, her education, the fact that she has three babies and a good, loyal husband and she was willing to throw it all away for sex?
> 
> Educated women she is.........smart, insightful, intuitive, spiritual, kind, emphatic....NOT. She threw you off the cliff...... using immature cliff-notes tactics.
> 
> To no avail. You can fly on your own. I suggest you get away from her. I pity those babies. Take good care of them during your 50 percent custody.


Right on the money....


----------



## JohnA

Her FOO and CSA issues have warped her. In extreme cases adultery by this type of person is like "cutting" an act of seif loathing. The expression "it's not you, it's me" is dead on agree with the person and move on. 

But that is not the choice Jay is making. He is reading and learning about her FOO and CSA issues. He is now going into a relationship with his eyes wide open. He knows the odds let him try. It has been awhile since he posted. I hope he found a board that gets down into the nitty gritty of what he is attempting and is succeeding or discovering the health and only choice is to divorce.


----------



## JayOwen

Still passing through occasionally, just nothing new to report, haven't found any other boards -- plotting my own course for now (as you all know).

That said, I do appreciate that there's a group of people on my side as outraged as I am, which I why I scan the site once or twice a week, helps me stay sane.


----------



## browser

SunCMars said:


> He took the love of my life and threw back a lemon grenade in my wife's slit trench.


*He blew up her VAGINA???*


----------



## JayOwen

So yesterday was four months to the day of me discovering my wife of 7 years had been cheating on me for three months with the neighbor.

In the interest of letting others know how I am doing, and in the hopes that they might find similarities or differences that might inform their own ordeal, I’m posting an update.

Where I’m at: empty.

Where she’s at: destroyed.

Where we’re at as a couple: question mark.

I’m still committed to the plan of “see where I’m at in a year,” but it’s no picnic. Eight months to go I guess. I’ve lately been very dead emotionally-speaking. I notice the overtures she’s making towards me, but it doesn’t produce any feeling in me lately. The plain of lethal flatness I’ve heard it called. I’m not fighting or embracing it, just seeing whether it shifts to something new or if it’s just the way things are now. It beats the sleepless, nauseous pain of the first few months ... but it’s not exactly what I’m looking for out of life.

I recently started IC again – it’s okay I guess, though less helpful than initially. We’ve had two more MC sessions, which has amounted to: you’re doing everything right, just give it time. I hate that. I want ACTION, concrete steps. “Just give it time” is unsatisfying. But there don't seem to be any other options other than pulling the trigger on a separation/divorce. Holding off on that still (for the kids).

For her part, my wife has come to terms with the fact that her childhood issues don’t “explain” her cheating. I’ve concluded that while I can, and do, forgive her for the breakdown of the marriage she subjected me to in the years leading up to the affair (given that the behavior stemmed from her childhood experiences, and I foolishly ignored what clearly signs of pain from her), I can forgive all that, but I cannot forgive the affair. That is a flaw that can't be glossed over.

She’s accepted that it was all her fault, her flaw, that I did nothing to deserve it, and that she has deeply abused me. It’s been particularly hard for her to accept that she was an abuser, that has been very traumatic for her to realize about herself. But she's finally starting to deal with a lot of the sh*t that she thought she had locked down, which is encouraging.

So for now, we’re just seeing what comes next while I gather further data. It’s a weird place. And tiring. But so far I’m seeing the woman I married, the selfish *sshole from a few months ago has yet to make a reappearance. Though I’m not letting my guard down. Which is its own kind of awful, which in turn just makes me want to walk away, I shouldn’t have to deal with this. That's pretty much the daily cycle.

And then I see how the kids are doing. They’re playing a lot, fighting less, giggling more. That makes life bearable for now. Eight months to go before I decide, probably longer if I'm being honest. I don’t believe we’ll ever be “awesome.” So now I’m just trying to figure out if there’s anything less that I’m willing to accept.

We’ll see I guess. Happy to answer any questions from those currently going through (or long past it). Thanks for reading.


----------



## sokillme

JayOwen said:


> So yesterday was four months to the day of me discovering my wife of 7 years had been cheating on me for three months with the neighbor.
> 
> In the interest of letting others know how I am doing, and in the hopes that they might find similarities or differences that might inform their own ordeal, I’m posting an update.
> 
> Where I’m at: empty.
> 
> Where she’s at: destroyed.
> 
> Where we’re at as a couple: question mark.
> 
> I’m still committed to the plan of “see where I’m at in a year,” but it’s no picnic. Eight months to go I guess. I’ve lately been very dead emotionally-speaking. I notice the overtures she’s making towards me, but it doesn’t produce any feeling in me lately. The plain of lethal flatness I’ve heard it called. I’m not fighting or embracing it, just seeing whether it shifts to something new or if it’s just the way things are now. It beats the sleepless, nauseous pain of the first few months ... but it’s not exactly what I’m looking for out of life.
> 
> I recently started IC again – it’s okay I guess, though less helpful than initially. We’ve had two more MC sessions, which has amounted to: you’re doing everything right, just give it time. I hate that. I want ACTION, concrete steps. “Just give it time” is unsatisfying. But there don't seem to be any other options other than pulling the trigger on a separation/divorce. Holding off on that still (for the kids).
> 
> For her part, my wife has come to terms with the fact that her childhood issues don’t “explain” her cheating. I’ve concluded that while I can, and do, forgive her for the breakdown of the marriage she subjected me to in the years leading up to the affair (given that the behavior stemmed from her childhood experiences, and I foolishly ignored what clearly signs of pain from her), I can forgive all that, but I cannot forgive the affair. That is a flaw that can't be glossed over.
> 
> She’s accepted that it was all her fault, her flaw, that I did nothing to deserve it, and that she has deeply abused me. It’s been particularly hard for her to accept that she was an abuser, that has been very traumatic for her to realize about herself. But she's finally starting to deal with a lot of the sh*t that she thought she had locked down, which is encouraging.
> 
> So for now, we’re just seeing what comes next while I gather further data. It’s a weird place. And tiring. But so far I’m seeing the woman I married, the selfish *sshole from a few months ago has yet to make a reappearance. Though I’m not letting my guard down. Which is its own kind of awful, which in turn just makes me want to walk away, I shouldn’t have to deal with this. That's pretty much the daily cycle.
> 
> And then I see how the kids are doing. They’re playing a lot, fighting less, giggling more. That makes life bearable for now. Eight months to go before I decide, probably longer if I'm being honest. I don’t believe we’ll ever be “awesome.” So now I’m just trying to figure out if there’s anything less that I’m willing to accept.
> 
> We’ll see I guess. Happy to answer any questions from those currently going through (or long past it). Thanks for reading.


What do you want?


----------



## JayOwen

sokillme said:


> What do you want?


A time machine would be useful.


----------



## sokillme

What exactly is your wife doing. How does her seeing she was abusive manifest itself in your relationship? Do you see her as and abuser. Why would you want to be married to an abuser. What is the benefit for you staying together? Does the neighbor's wife know? Are you still living next to each other?

Do you think you could do better you are only 34. What keeps you staying?


----------



## sokillme

JayOwen said:


> A time machine would be useful.


I assume you joke because you don't know? How does your wife knowing she is an abuser make your situation any better? How do you feel about the risk you are taking to stay with a person like your wife.


----------



## JayOwen

The benefit for now is for the children. I think it's valid that a bad marriage is bad for children, in which case divorce is the right solution.

The question for me is whether A) the marriage can get back to some point that I find tolerable and B) whether that tolerable marriage is better than getting divorced for the kids.

At a base level it requires the affair to be over (it is) my wife to full stop leave it behind (she has, none of this "mourning" BS that I see so much elsewhere) and for me to know she's truly fighting to fix things.

I see that in her therapy, I see that in the way we interact. Things are vastly better between us. If the affair hadn't happened I would say our marriage was "fixed" as compared to the relationship over the past few years.

What remains to be seen is whether I can forgive and still feel good about myself. That's what remains unclear, and thus the waiting game. Therapists tell me that time helps that process. I don't like that answer, but I'm willing to give it a shot.

Does that answer your question somewhat?


----------



## JayOwen

sokillme said:


> How do you feel about the risk you are taking to stay with a person like your wife.


It's a huge risk, no way around it. And exhausting to deal with. For now, I deal with it in the interest of the kids, and the hope that one day she and I will be better than ... whatever this is right now.

But absolutely, my ability to trust her is destroyed. I'm told that gets better over time, we'll see.


----------



## sokillme

JayOwen said:


> The benefit for now is for the children. I think it's valid that a bad marriage is bad for children, in which case divorce is the right solution.
> 
> The question for me is whether A) the marriage can get back to some point that I find tolerable and B) whether that tolerable marriage is better than getting divorced for the kids.
> 
> At a base level it requires the affair to be over (it is) my wife to full stop leave it behind (she has, none of this "mourning" BS that I see so much elsewhere) and for me to know she's truly fighting to fix things.
> 
> I see that in her therapy, I see that in the way we interact. Things are vastly better between us. If the affair hadn't happened I would say our marriage was "fixed" as compared to the relationship over the past few years.
> 
> What remains to be seen is whether I can forgive and still feel good about myself. That's what remains unclear, and thus the waiting game. Therapists tell me that time helps that process. I don't like that answer, but I'm willing to give it a shot.
> 
> Does that answer your question somewhat?


You said to ask questions. Why not divorce her and start dating her, let her go back to the starting point and prove she wants you and not just the safety you provide. Seeing other women would probably give you a way to feel better about yourself, because at least being with her would be done from a choice again, not just a result that you have to settle on. Just a thought.


----------



## sokillme

JayOwen said:


> It's a huge risk, no way around it. And exhausting to deal with. For now, I deal with it in the interest of the kids, and the hope that one day she and I will be better than ... whatever this is right now.
> 
> But absolutely, my ability to trust her is destroyed. I'm told that gets better over time, we'll see.


My advice would be to work on dependence, Remove your dependence on her and trust won't be as important. You probably will never trust her or anyone else 100%. You may trust someone else more, but 100% trust is called naivete.

What exactly has she done. How has her remorse manifested itself. You say now she gets it, why do you think that?


----------



## JayOwen

sokillme said:


> You said to ask questions. Why not divorce her and start dating her, let her go back to the starting point and prove she wants you and not just the safety you provide. Seeing other women would probably give you a way to feel better about yourself, because at least being with her would be done from a choice again, not just a result that you have to settle on. Just a thought.


Ask away, I'm not offended. In a perfect world that would be a possible option (though realistically, if the kids were not in the picture I would probably be gone in the interest of my own self-respect). But the kids very much ARE in the picture, so it's not an scenario I'm willing to entertain right now -- too traumatic for them.

If that sounds odd it's because none of this really makes sense to me, I never thought I'd be the person who'd stick around after something like this. And yet here I am. 

As for what I see in my wife, trust absolutely is the critical question. Because what I see is a person who is now self-aware, no longer rationalizing, aware of the damage she's done, and realizes the responsibility rests on her, and only her. In other words, the abuse ended the night I confronted her (even if the aftershocks are still playing out daily).

That's all great... if I can trust it will hold for the rest of our lives. That's a big question. So why am I even trying?

Not to beat a dead horse, but it's the kids. If I'm going to blow up their childhood, I need to be sure that what I'm doing is ultimately the least bad of the options available. I'm either going to leave and hurt my kids, or I'm going to stay and never have the marriage that I thought I'd have. Neither are good options -- I'm still trying to figure out which is the "least bad."


----------



## GusPolinski

So here's a question whose answer, depending on your perspective, may not matter at all...

What's up with OM?


----------



## JayOwen

GusPolinski said:


> What's up with OM?


Gone, sold his house. Haven't seen him since. He sent her a letter (presumably as he was moving out) saying he'd always remember her, yada, yada.

She handed it over to me unopened. I trust her there's been no other contact. Though again, there's that word, trust.

I'm not omniscient, so at a certain level I have to just hope that I'm not being played. Which is obviously very hard at this stage just because I'm so raw. But they'd have to be f*cking ninjas to do it, so mostly I'm pretty confident that she's telling the truth.


----------



## sokillme

JayOwen said:


> If I'm going to blow up their childhood.


You are not blowing up their childhood your wife did. This is misplaced guilt that BS have.

You say your wife is self aware but what changes has she made. What were the issues that lead to this?


----------



## JayOwen

sokillme said:


> You are not blowing up their childhood your wife did. This is misplaced guilt that BS have.
> 
> You say your wife is self aware but what changes has she made. What were the issues that lead to this?


Yeah, I see your point. In a broad sense yes, her cheating blew it up, but that doesn't absolve me as a parent from not sheltering my kids somehow. I know that's difficult for you given your own experiences, so I don't say that to you lightly.

Right now, I do truly think there's a chance that our home MIGHT be happier if my wife and I stay together as opposed to getting divorced. Which is not to say it'll be the ideal home, but until I know which way the scales are tipped, I'm sticking around to see. And in the meantime, she's showing me that's not a fool's errand.

Best I can explain it I guess. Might seem naive, it works for me for now, even as it sucks on a daily basis.


----------



## sokillme

JayOwen said:


> Yeah, I see your point. In a broad sense yes, her cheating blew it up, but that doesn't absolve me as a parent from not sheltering my kids somehow. I know that's difficult for you given your own experiences, so I don't say that to you lightly.
> 
> Right now, I do truly think there's a chance that our home MIGHT be happier if my wife and I stay together as opposed to getting divorced. Which is not to say it'll be the ideal home, but until I know which way the scales are tipped, I'm sticking around to see. And in the meantime, she's showing me that's not a fool's errand.
> 
> Best I can explain it I guess. Might seem naive, it works for me for now, even as it sucks on a daily basis.


Are you happy? If you want to stay that is your choice. You have to decide what is important to you. I really only have a problem with the people who stay and then are miserable. That is a terrible way to live and not good for the kids. I also think it is bad when one parent doesn't respect the other because this is picked up by kids and can spread to their later relationships. I think that generally it's better to leave, so I advocate for that, but it's you life. 

What did she learn that has changed her though? I mean I had a pretty sad childhood in a lot of respects, haven't cheated. Lost of people do not all cheat. Even you said that was hard to accept.

You say it's hard for her to accept that she is an abuser, how do you even know she accepts it. Has she told you she is an abuser with no queue form you?


----------



## Taxman

Jay
My situation was completely different, however, time is a marvelous thing. It takes the edge off pain and betrayal. They do become distant memories. We made mistakes of gargantuan proportions. We had f'ed up childhoods. We have issues up the wazoo, but, we found the best way of getting through this, while the reconciliation process was ongoing was to date. Aside from the fact that I was gone on d-day, and was not allowed back for 7 months, we re-learned to relate to one another. At first, it was to discuss business. Ended up going out a lot. Coffee nearly every night. Thank god for babysitters and grandmas. Weekends courting, dates. 

Make no mistake. This is an entirely new marriage. She killed the old one. Dead. Now you have to take the carcass, and decide whether this can be a happy marriage in time. We managed it. 30 years later, we are in love with one another, and in my estimation, pretty solid.


----------



## Quality

JayOwen said:


> If that sounds odd it's because none of this really makes sense to me, I never thought I'd be the person who'd stick around after something like this. And yet here I am.
> 
> As for what I see in my wife, trust absolutely is the critical question. Because what I see is a person who is now self-aware, no longer rationalizing, aware of the damage she's done, and realizes the responsibility rests on her, and only her. In other words, the abuse ended the night I confronted her (even if the aftershocks are still playing out daily).
> 
> That's all great... if I can trust it will hold for the rest of our lives. That's a big question. So why am I even trying?
> 
> Not to beat a dead horse, but it's the kids. If I'm going to blow up their childhood, I need to be sure that what I'm doing is ultimately the least bad of the options available. I'm either going to leave and hurt my kids, or I'm going to stay and never have the marriage that I thought I'd have. Neither are good options -- I'm still trying to figure out which is the "least bad."



I just did a quick review of the beginning of this thread and see a lot of hope in your situation.

I was near the point of seeking a divorce from my wife as well when I discovered her affair and, like you, was relieved a bit to snoop out the absolute truth of it. A part of me thought I had discoverd my "get out of marriage free card". 

Then you look at the children and wonder what's to become of them and, remarkedly, being cheated on does some weird chemical things to betrayed husbands where all the sudden your wife becomes the thing you desire more than anything else on the planet. So you stick around and decide not to decide and see what happens.

About 4 months to 8 months in the adrenaline starts to wear off and that drive to work out, then work 8 hours, then think and read about relationship and spend time with your wife another 10 hours a day just leads you into an inevitable funk. It's a symptom of PTSD. The let-down period. It's natural and normal (maybe some anti-depressants). It's not a sign ~~~ YET ~~ that you've messed up and made a mistake or that it's going to be like this forever.

It IS a sign that complacency isn't healthy for you or your wife and that you BOTH need to get active doing recovery and doing life TOGETHER because BOTH OF YOUR feelings will simply follow your actions. If you simply sit around feeling sorry for yourself and poking at your belly button {navel gazing}, then sorry you will become. 

You wanted a better relationship with your wife PRIOR to her affair anyway so now you've got the trump card to get her on board with making that happen WITH YOU. Time to lead.

Speculating about your feelings of trust and whether you can or will ever FEEL trust again is worthless banter. If you and your wife make your marriage great again and model that for your children you'll end up trusting her again {and probably more} because trust is a measurement of consistent behavior over time {and you'll now be realistic and take measurement of it from time to time} and NOT something you can simply build by talking about it. For example, you 100% blindly trusted your wife prior to her affair and yet, she cheated on you anyway so what did that feeling of 100% blind trust really get you relationship wise? That feeling wasn't reality so the reality is you can build and have a relationship without REAL absolute trust because you've already done that and now that you understand trust better you'll actually be more realistic about any relationship you ever have {with your current wife or, really, anyone}.


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## JayOwen

sokillme said:


> Are you happy?


As happy as I once was? No. Willing to consider that might change? Yes.

I absolutely agree with you, being miserable, or being persistently disrespected, is not an acceptable for either myself or for my kids to see. But until I'm sure that's the way things will be I'm willing to give it time. Yes, it's not a great place to be right now. In eight months if it feels the same then I think I'll have my answer (i.e. ending it).

In the meantime, yes, she's trying, saying these things unprompted, breaking down in tears unprompted, going to counseling, willing to cede decisions about the marriage to me. It's enough for at this point. She's not fighting me, deflecting, pining for him, carving out "things for herself." I'm willing to respect that for now.


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## JayOwen

Quality said:


> Speculating about your feelings of trust and whether you can or will ever FEEL trust again is worthless banter.


I agree with a lot of what you're saying, though I can't say I'm on board with the above. I agree that obsessing about it doesn't do anything productive, but I do think it's the essential litmus test (at least from where I'm standing now).

If the trust doesn't return -- why would I want to be in that relationship? Right now, there's no trust. Eventually, I hope there will be. Because otherwise I have no interest in sticking around, that's all I was saying.

I believe what you're saying "cultivate a relationship, the trust will come naturally" -- maybe? To which I'd say, I agree that it's not useful to wait around in a vacuum. I'm also not making long term commitments either, not until I can better judge how I'll be feeling long-term.


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## Quality

JayOwen said:


> I agree with a lot of what you're saying, though I can't say I'm on board with the above. I agree that obsessing about it doesn't do anything productive, but I do think it's the essential litmus test (at least from where I'm standing now).
> 
> If the trust doesn't return -- why would I want to be in that relationship? Right now, there's no trust. Eventually, I hope there will be. Because otherwise I have no interest in sticking around, that's all I was saying.
> 
> I believe what you're saying "cultivate a relationship, the trust will come naturally" -- maybe? To which I'd say, I agree that it's not useful to wait around in a vacuum. I'm also not making long term commitments either, not until I can better judge how I'll be feeling long-term.



Of course you won't stay and remain in your relationship if there isn't basic trust that your wife can be online or simply walk around anywhere without you worrying that she's falling on some guy's genitals again but even that trust doesn't arise by talking about it. You can't sit back and wait for trust to come along all by itself.

You're still just a few months out to so I wouldn't expect you to be making any long term commitments either.


What I am saying is "how I'll be feeling long-term" is going to be much more a result of your choices and actions than your wife's. Your feelings will follow your actions. Your wife could do everything right and be super apologetic and sorry but she can't MAKE YOU feel love for her again. Instead, you'll love her again when you see a better you reflected in her eyes and she'll love you more when she sees a better her reflected in your eyes. 

How do you accomplish that? 

Be the best husband and father you can be {because that's all you really control anyway} which includes demanding she get on board with you while BOTH learning TOGETHER how to actually be better people, parents and spouses {read relationship books and study the subject you both aren't really great at apparently} and, if in the process she cheats or fails or refuses to adopt healthy marital behavior {i.e. - remains a wayward thinking reprobate} then you actually have your the answer to your current dilemma {i.e. - you won't, based upon her objective failure to behave in a loving responsible spousal manner, FEEL like continuing the marriage}.

Such failure would be on her and based on her behavior TODAY and over the next 8 months or so. Obviously a divorce would be based upon the affair but if you've determined to give it {recovery} a chance, then you've got to really give it a chance or you're wasting everyone's time {including your own}. If she fails, there needn't be any "I never really had a chance" or "you just wanted to punish me forever and hold it over my head" nor would there be relief on her part to be done with depressed and gloomy betrayed dad releasing her from the anxiety of always and forever having to be the bad guy in the relationship.


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## JohnA

Hi Jay,

Glad to see your post. You made a big decision knowing the facts of CSA and I respect that choice. How is the issue of CSA being dealt with? Often the standard advise which is food is actually the worst actions to take when dealing with CSA.

Your thoughts on this thread SurvivingInfidelity.com - 2 years no sex, she feels like a piece of meat


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## JayOwen

JohnA said:


> Hi Jay,
> 
> Glad to see your post. You made a big decision knowing the facts of CSA and I respect that choice. How is the issue of CSA being dealt with? Often the standard advise which is food is actually the worst actions to take when dealing with CSA.
> 
> Your thoughts on this thread SurvivingInfidelity.com - 2 years no sex, she feels like a piece of meat


wow, that's really intense. my wife is dealing with stuff, but nowhere close to that -- in all honesty I'm not sure I could deal with that level of trauma.


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## TheTruthHurts

@JayOwen it's still a very recent betrayal. Naturally you're protecting yourself by shutting down.

Listen to those who have R because you already have plenty of D advice and frankly thats your "reserve option".

I think what the R crowd is saying is get into the game of R if you want to try R. 4 months might be too soon for that but 8 more months might be too long.

Perhaps put an intermediate goal - in x weeks I'll try to show her what I admire and show her some positivity - even on a limited scale.

I sense that you feel you'll betray yourself to offer this figleaf. Frankly I completely understand. But maybe you can fake it a bit and throw her a bone and watch. It may be red meat to her and she may also risk her vulnerability to reach you.

I get the notion of walking - that's my assumption as well but I've never been tested. Lonely Husband ##### (forget the user name) showed me that you can come back after cutting off a WS with faith and a truly remorseful WS.

But I have no experience so my opinion is worth what you paid for it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Taxman

I will echo TheTruthHurts, I highly recommend Lonely Husband's thread. That is a great example of R after a devastating affair.


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## GusPolinski

JohnA said:


> Hi Jay,
> 
> Glad to see your post. You made a big decision knowing the facts of CSA and I respect that choice. How is the issue of CSA being dealt with? Often the standard advise which is food is actually the worst actions to take when dealing with CSA.
> 
> Your thoughts on this thread SurvivingInfidelity.com - 2 years no sex, she feels like a piece of meat


Damn.

I don't think I've ever read anything that had me ready to type "Divorce" quite as quickly as that.

Holy ****, man.


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## Hopeful Cynic

JayOwen said:


> A time machine would be useful.


I wished that for myself for quite some time, then I realized that even if I could go back in time to warn myself not to do some crucial thing (don't have kids, don't get married to ex, don't even date ex, etc) old me probably wouldn't even have believed current me.

There are several overlapping things you are adjusting to right now. Each one gets progressively harder.

One, is learning to trust other people again. You have just been betrayed in the worst way. Right now, you look around at everybody you see, and you wonder just what evil they are capable of.

Second, you must learn to trust the opposite sex again. Maybe other men are mostly okay, but with women, they are still in the previous category. You still wonder if each and every one is just deep down cruel and selfish and could turn on you the moment they see something better.

Third, you must learn to trust your wife again. This is incredibly challenging, because she has already proven to be untrustworthy. She pretty much needs to transform herself into a whole new person, and even then, this whole new person now falls into the dubious category of the previous paragraph, much like any stranger would.

Lastly, you must learn to trust yourself again. Your own judgement of people has just been shattered. It will take some time to feel your self-confidence again, to rebuild your ability to sense the character of others, to trust yourself.

Only when you have this last step accomplished will all the previous ones truly be healed.


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## Openminded

I would guess that for most of us who try to R (including those who succeed and not just those of us who fail), trust really doesn't comes back as completely as it was before -- and shouldn't. That level of pain isn't forgotten. You're always aware it can happen again. 

I understand wanting to stay for your children. I did that too. Some end up succeeding well in R and some don't. My R failed decades later so I tend to be cynical about it but some do rebuild and are happy. You're much more practical about R than many who end up here and that will help you deal with it. At least it did for me. 

R is a long, hard road. Much harder than walking away -- at least in my experience. I hope all goes well for you.


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## Grapes

JayOwen said:


> *What remains to be seen is whether I can forgive and still feel good about myself.*


you hit the nail on the head. This is so difficult to accomplish. When I tried to get past the first affair i carried around embarrassment, shame etc because I didn't respect myself for the decision my heart lead me to. My heart and head were in 2 different places. I hated myself for staying.


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## GusPolinski

JayOwen said:


> The benefit for now is for the children. I think it's valid that a bad marriage is bad for children, in which case divorce is the right solution.
> 
> The question for me is whether A) the marriage can get back to some point that I find tolerable and B) whether that tolerable marriage is better than getting divorced for the kids.
> 
> At a base level it requires the affair to be over (it is) my wife to full stop leave it behind (she has, none of this "mourning" BS that I see so much elsewhere) and for me to know she's truly fighting to fix things.
> 
> I see that in her therapy, I see that in the way we interact. Things are vastly better between us. If the affair hadn't happened I would say our marriage was "fixed" as compared to the relationship over the past few years.
> 
> What remains to be seen is whether I can forgive and still feel good about myself. That's what remains unclear, and thus the waiting game. Therapists tell me that time helps that process. I don't like that answer, but I'm willing to give it a shot.
> 
> Does that answer your question somewhat?


I'd point out that a) forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean reconciliation and b) forgiveness and divorce aren't mutually exclusive.


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## ButtPunch

Grapes said:


> you hit the nail on the head. This is so difficult to accomplish. When I tried to get past the first affair i carried around embarrassment, shame etc because I didn't respect myself for the decision my heart lead me to. My heart and head were in 2 different places. I hated myself for staying.


I have been reconciled for a while now. I truly believed my WW deserved a second chance. She was not the usual
selfish cheater you read about here on TAM. It's been over four years now, and this had to have been the hardest part
to reconcile. Allowing yourself to understand, giving her a second chance doesn't mean you don't respect yourself.

I still have these feelings time to time but don't regret my decision one bit.


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## Grapes

ButtPunch said:


> I have been reconciled for a while now. I truly believed my WW deserved a second chance. She was not the usual
> selfish cheater you read about here on TAM. It's been over four years now, and this had to have been the hardest part
> to reconcile. Allowing yourself to understand, giving her a second chance doesn't mean you don't respect yourself.
> 
> I still have these feelings time to time but don't regret my decision one bit.


Yes every situation is unique and I agree some may deserve it depending on the situation. Provided a BS gets everything that's discussed here it goes along way in helping the BS overcome that feeling. But the feeling exists non-the-less and can be difficult to manage.


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