# Learning how to say no



## modernknight (Apr 24, 2015)

As some of you will know I've written a few posts here about the ongoing problems in my relationship.

I'm 39, she's 35, we've been living together for 4 years (been together for 6) and live in a small apartment with her 13 year old son taking up the big room and us living in a small room that wasn't meant to be a bedroom. As I've mentioned before, there are good points to this relationship, but also some relationship breaker issues (jealousy, neediness, unkindness). She has a part time job on an afternoon. On a morning she goes to a university to get a qualification in social work (there's another couple years to go!). I work in an office, 8 hours per day, in IT.

As I find myself under increasing pressure to find an apartment I decided to look at one that was on the expensive side this Saturday. I knew that I probably couldn't afford it alone and would need some contribution from my girlfriend. I went there with my girlfriend and her son. The apartment was really nice, in a very quiet peaceful, green location. Unfortunately I think it's too small. The larger bedroom is too small for her sons current furniture and the smaller room is only slightly bigger than what we current have (although at least it is a 'real' bedroom with a door that closes!). We would struggle to fit our furniture into the apartment although at a push downsizing is always possible. 

As mentioned, I don't think I can afford it alone. I explained this to my girlfriend and asked her (in as nice and diplomatic a way as possible) if she could contribute to the rent. She said she can't afford to give anything (not with her uni, money she has to pay out for her son, and the other outgoings). I currently pay all the rent, heating, electric, car costs, main shopping, holiday costs, and so on. She pays for the home phone/internet, her mobile, and small food shops during the week when we need a little extra or she wants to make a cake or do a quick lunch.

I created a spreadsheet to budget last night. The spreadsheet factors in everything (even things like car insurance, holiday planning, etc). We just can't afford it. I need a contribution of around 400 Euros per month from my girlfriend and as mentioned she can't do that. Not to mention the fact that my job is unstable with redundancies recently, so moving to an expensive house doesn't leave us with a buffer to survive for long without a job. It's also likely I'd be earning less in the next job.

I started reading No More Mr Nice Guy last week. It's opening my eyes as I realise that I've never been a "real man" who would say simply "no. we can't afford it". I've always been someone who is so desperate to please, to avoid conflict, that I haven't been strong and truly honest. I'm trying to be strong and honest now, but boy it's hard when I feel she's acting like a spoiled child.

We have had many arguments about money before. Especially holidays where if I was strong I would have said no (I remember trying) but instead caved in and spent thousands and thousands. I can just imagine how upset she would be if we took the apartment and couldn't afford going on any holidays!

I remember she said to me at the beginning of the relationship "money is not important to me. being with someone i love is". Well... it doesn't seem that way to me.

Am I being too nice? 
Am I being unreasonable?
Do I need to "man up"?


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

Another book you might find helpful is

'When I say no, I feel guilty'.

Good luck.


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## modernknight (Apr 24, 2015)

Thanks for the book suggestion @tryingtobebetter.  It looks like a good book, with positive reviews! Added to my reading list.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

MK,

I would not consider getting another apartment with her. She treats you very poorly and takes you for granted.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...on/263218-finding-apartment.html#post12503178


You would be better suited to find an apartment for yourself and leave them behind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

PhillyGuy13 said:


> MK,
> 
> I would not consider getting another apartment with her. She treats you very poorly and takes you for granted.
> 
> ...


And also make sure that after living together for 4 years, that you have no obligation to pay this woman child support...... given where you live.....


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

modernknight said:


> Am I being too nice?
> Am I being unreasonable?
> Do I need to "man up"?


Yes, no, yes


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## JukeboxHero (Mar 3, 2015)

Am I missing something? I noticed you never mentioned that she insisted you need to move into this apt. Did she? All I see is that you asked her if she could contribute and she said she couldn't. If that's the case, why is it hard to say NO? You can't afford it, and it's a bit too small. I would say keep looking.

Also, what others have said about finding a place of your own. If she can't support her own kid, what did she do before she met you?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Sometimes you need to just stand up and hit them a bit with reality. Especially if your partner isn't good with money. My GF has mentioned a few times about wanting a bigger house. Probably not going to happen for several reasons but the biggest one of course is money. We both work full time but I make more than her. I also pay way more than her for bills. She has a part time business she is starting to make happen. So when she brings up the bigger house I point out to her the numbers and that she would have to contribute 500$ more a month to make that happen. So if it's important to her she can tangibly work on it. That approach may work with you to OP. I wouldn't move anywhere till she contributes a fair amount


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## modernknight (Apr 24, 2015)

Hey @Jukebox. Thanks for the post. I've read a few of your posts and thought there were a few similarities between events in your life and events in mine. Verbal Judo is now in the book list thanks to your posts. I sincerely hope you find the path to happiness.

Regarding your questions...

She hasn't explicitly insisted we move into the apartment. This is true. She has made many comments though, all of them implying that she likes it and thinks we should take the apartment. 

She has explicitly expressed anger to me, for taking them to see an apartment without finding out if we could definitely afford it. I do agree that it would have been better to find out what she could contribute and what I could afford first. I wrongly assumed that she would be able to contribute to make it affordable. And in truth... I was scared to ask what she could contribute for fear of her reaction. Yes... walking on eggshells... second guessing... and so on.

Additionally, she criticised me for "giving her son dreams about moving to this apartment" when he is "only a child" and it's "not fair" to lead him on. This morning he started talking about what furniture he has in his new room! I feel terribly guilty about that and immediately made it clear that we are not decided on it as we are not sure we can afford it. The last thing I wanted was to hurt someone. Especially a child. Having said all that, prior to viewing the apartment, I had definitely said "the apartment we're going to see is very expensive but I'm interested in seeing what it looks like". I don't really think I'd led anyone on. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I need to work more on my verbal judo.

I think I find it hard to say "no" because I like to please and don't want to disappoint. I also want to avoid conflict; of which she has proven many times before that conflict comes easily, even with a well thought out sentence. It's also hard to say no because of her reaction. Her unreasonable and unsupportive behaviour, makes it even harder to say "no".Ultimately though, if I believe a place is too expensive, and can scientifically prove it, then that should be enough to say "no". right?

Before she met me, she lived in an even smaller apartment where her bed was in the living room and her son had the only bedroom. We then moved to this place because she wanted to move somewhere with more space and didn't have the patience to wait. Kind of like now! I hadn't thought of that. So she moved to the current place along with me even though we're in this winter garden. Part of her decision to take the current one was also her fear that I might leave her (remember I said she was jealous and insecure) and therefore, if I left her on her own she could (just about) afford the current one. Certainly... if I were to leave, she would not be able to continue her university studying and would have to take a second job to make ends meet.


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## modernknight (Apr 24, 2015)

Thanks @Wolf1974. That's a good suggestion and worth trying. As you say, it's a tangible statement/figure and feels like a fair approach.


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## jc0187 (Feb 16, 2013)

modernknight said:


> As some of you will know I've written a few posts here about the ongoing problems in my relationship.
> 
> I'm 39, she's 35, we've been living together for 4 years (been together for 6) and live in a small apartment with her 13 year old son taking up the big room and us living in a small room that wasn't meant to be a bedroom. As I've mentioned before, there are good points to this relationship, but also some relationship breaker issues (jealousy, neediness, unkindness). She has a part time job on an afternoon. On a morning she goes to a university to get a qualification in social work (there's another couple years to go!). I work in an office, 8 hours per day, in IT.
> 
> ...


Wow. You see, I've got some issues in my current relationship as well. The reason I came to this site was because the folks who come on here are always helpful with sound advice, and rarely will judge one for their actions. So, I've been given advice but rarely give advice on this board. So...

Yes, you are being way too nice. Not unreasonable either. You are supporting her and her son and she can't help out with anything more than internet and some food?! Tell her she needs to start thinking about the bigger picture and pitch in to help out the family unit. Sounds like she is selfish. Time to put the foot down. And, no, don't spend extra money on an apartment you simply cannot afford just to spite her from being able to go on vacations. If you guys split, the jokes on you then. Chances are, the rent will be in your name right? So then you will be spending every dollar on your home while she could walk away from all of it. Be careful.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Also read the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty". It is far more than the title suggests. It dovetails with NMMNG.


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## toonaive (Dec 13, 2012)

You have examined the situation clearly. The answer just has to be no. To many uncertainties exist, that could completely derail you financially. If you loose your relationship over this, then you will know exactly where her heart really was from the beginning.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> Additionally, she criticised me for "giving her son dreams about moving to this apartment" when he is "only a child" and it's "not fair" to lead him on. This morning he started talking about what furniture he has in his new room!


ModernKnight, are you sure she is not putting thoughts into his head?


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## modernknight (Apr 24, 2015)

@NextTimeAround: It crossed my mind.....


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I agree with PhillyGuy. Get your OWN apartment.

Even in a few years, will things get much better financially? Her degree probably won't lead to a high paying job, so you may still be on the hook for most expenses. It's not clear from what you've said so far that this relationship is worth maintaining.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> I agree with PhillyGuy. Get your OWN apartment.
> 
> Even in a few years, will things get much better financially? Her degree probably won't lead to a high paying job, so you may still be on the hook for most expenses. It's not clear from what you've said so far that this relationship is worth maintaining.


My husband was dating a social worker. Even in NYC, she was working freelance / non contract / definitely not on payroll. Don't know whether that was a choice or not.

She texted my (future) husband (before we met) that she owed the IRS USD6,000. People paid on contract don't realize that they're being paid gross. I guess from that you might be able to estimate how much she was making back in 2009.


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## JukeboxHero (Mar 3, 2015)

modernknight said:


> Hey @Jukebox. Thanks for the post. I've read a few of your posts and thought there were a few similarities between events in your life and events in mine. Verbal Judo is now in the book list thanks to your posts. I sincerely hope you find the path to happiness.
> 
> Regarding your questions...
> 
> ...


Wow, so she's making you feel bad..because you can't give them some nice luxury apt and continue to pay for EVERYTHING!! How are you "setting her son up for disappointment" when she can't provide anything for him. 

Oh, and I almost forgot, you need to cut back on your hours at work too. So she wants you to work less, upgrade the apartment for her and her son, while neither of them contribute anything. What's next? Will you be sleeping in the backyard shed or something while her son and her milk you for you all you've got?

Sorry, man..this sounds really ridiculous. IF you think she's worth sticking with, then I would at least get her to prove it by trying to help you financially (Does she earn anything?). IF she doesn't make any money, her and her damn lazy kid should help out with the chores. Hell, he could even get a job mowing yards or something (that's what I did when I was a kid).


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Why are you letting her son run the show? You and she are crammed in a tiny room with no door & he gets the big bedroom?

Get your own place and let her spoil her son. She isn't contributing and expects you to support her & her son in the style in which she would like to become accustomed. She is using you.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

A 13 year old is more than old enough to understand the concepts of cost and money.

Give me a break with this dreams and hopes of a new apartment were crushed baloney.

She is pouring the guilt on right thick. As I've said before, I see zero upside to this relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## modernknight (Apr 24, 2015)

Thanks all for your messages and support. 

There are reasons why I want to stay in the relationship. It's easy to read the things I've written and see everything as dark and cloudy but it's not like that all the time. I've just returned from a lovely weekend where we had a great time together. We also had some very deep discussion about our relationship issues. She's doing some reading into healthy communication and seems to be coming to a realisation about herself.

However, you are right to question whether I should be in it. There's no doubt I need to work out what I need, why I'm in this, why I tolerate certain things, and whether I should move on. Her behaviour can be terrible. Her attitude about the apartment situation is bad and not one of kindness, understanding, and compassion.

I'm nearing the end of reading "No more Mr Nice Guy". It's been an eye opening. So much of it has been accurate that I could almost imagine the book was written about me. I realise that I have enabled her behaviour by not setting boundaries, giving up my own needs, and by care-taking her. For a long time I have been a weak doormat. Looking back at my childhood experiences I can see possibilities for why. Now I need to do something about it. I know some of you may see this as an excuse to stay when I should leave. Maybe you're right and I'm lying to myself. I accept that possibly. I just hope that I can continue to write in these boards and continue to get your support whichever way I go.

Next step is to see my Doctor and ask if I can get see a counsellor. It's about a time I addressed my issues. Perhaps this is the gateway to either finding a way to make this relationship work or accepting that it's time to move on for good.


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## flyer (Jun 23, 2014)

Sounds like you need to dump this chick, and move on!!


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## HobbesTheTiger (Apr 7, 2014)

I think it's great that you read the book No more mr. nice guy. It has helped me tremendously. It's even better that you'll seek counselling - it helped me so much!

Please, make sure she doesn't get "accidentally" pregnant while your relationship is still so rocky.

Another book I'd recommend you read is "Toxic parents", it's available online for free if you google "Toxic parents pdf", it gave me great insight into how my childhood shaped my "Nice Guy-ness" etc.

Best wishes


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## modernknight (Apr 24, 2015)

Thanks @HobbesTheTiger! I have the pdf.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

flyer said:


> Sounds like you need to dump this chick, and move on!!


I think if MK does that now, it would be too soon. He is starting to learn about himself and how he can behave differently in future ('When I say no, I feel guilty' has some very helpful, practical advice on how to stand up for yourself in calm, polite ways which mean people respect you far more). Given that he likes the girl, it makes sense IMO to give things with her a chance in the light of his new and growing understanding of these matters.

If, after he has had time for the necessary personal growth, things are still not working, that would be the time to reconsider the relationship.


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## JukeboxHero (Mar 3, 2015)

tryingtobebetter said:


> I think if MK does that now, it would be too soon. He is starting to learn about himself and how he can behave differently in future ('When I say no, I feel guilty' has some very helpful, practical advice on how to stand up for yourself in calm, polite ways which mean people respect you far more). Given that he likes the girl, it makes sense IMO to give things with her a chance in the light of his new and growing understanding of these matters.
> 
> If, after he has had time for the necessary personal growth, things are still not working, that would be the time to reconsider the relationship.


I was going to suggest that he may try to maintain his relationship as well, if he feels it's worth it.

However, IF it were me, I would suggest he still find himself a nicer apartment and move into it ALONE. I think she needs to learn how to support herself and her kid. He has no obligation to stay with her, and I think he's doing too much for them.


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