# Looking back, do the cheaters ever feel genuinely guilty for hurting us?



## still so sad (May 27, 2013)

Dday has been almost 3 years ago now. Still consider us in R ( do we ever get out?) Still in counseling.

Sometimes I wonder if cheaters reflect back and feel any real guilt after now seeing what they have put us through. Was the affair really worth all of the fallout?

I know that if I ask WH, he will tell me yes that he feels guilty etc. but I just dont know if he'd say that because he feels its what I want to hear.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Some definitely do, without question. You can find them here.


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## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

Can only speak for my ex.

The reason I abandoned R was because I sensed no real remorse. He only felt bad for how HIS life was now so difficult. Haven't spoken to him in over 10 years, but I believe he feels he was a victim.....like he had no choice but to cheat since I was such a terrible wife.

But I'm sure others do feel remorse. I'd be more inclined to believe, however, that those would be the spouses that come clean before getting caught....because they feel guilty for what they've done/are doing. When you only come clean because you've been discovered, I think that paints a different picture. In my opinion anyway.


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## loveforfamily (Mar 13, 2014)

I think some do. I think some are never caught and you are divorced for other reasons and then go..."oh cramp" now I see it and it's too late and you know they wouldn't feel remorse anyway. I think once a person works on themselves and figures out why, aside from the remorse and guilt they feel for hurting someone, that the truly deep remorse comes from knowledge and self evaluation. Ugh probably doesn't make sense. Hard to get out what I mean.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*My answer can only be from strictly hypothetical standpoint. Although she never confessed about her infidelity and I never formally confronted her with the "smoking-gun" evidence of such, my skanky XW has to have some innate sense that I now am reasonably aware of and have a working knowledge of what actually happened between her and both of her "Stage Door Johnnies" in their clandestine, pre-planned junkets, leaving me to tend the farm and the house all while she's off getting herself a little "accidental penis" off behind closed doors in either their locales or in some luxury hotel room!
*
*My take is that while she knows the truth, she would never, ever admit to it. And that is the basic reason that she, to this day, refuses to speak to me, much less look me squarely in the eye and tell me "the unfettered truth!" There seems to be a big ol' yellow streak running right down the center of her back that's keeping her from doing that! It could very well be that it just rubbed off on her from all of that rolling around that she was doing with Li'l Lord Lardass and her other paramour!
*
*But as they so aptly say down here in the Great Republic of Texas, "that Ol' Dog just ain't going to hunt!"

But I'm afraid that the self-serving mantra of my XW is largely and unfortunately going to be nothing more than : "Out of Sight ~ Out of Mind!"*


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## melw74 (Dec 12, 2013)

I agree with the PP, I do believe that some do genuinely feel guilt for cheating, and i also think that more so it is the cheaters that confess before they are found out that are the ones who do feel the remorse.

I think the ones who are found out after they've cheated are just sorry they have been caught out the majority of the time of course i cant speak for everyone.

You hear of many reasons why people cheat.... I can never understand it myself.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

I may get slack for this, but I believe my WS tears and sorrows about cheating on me. Yes, cheaters are liars, but the thing is, she was never that great of a liar.

I was blinded by trust and faith in her. Every single sign was there, pointing in bright lights to the AP. I even remember telling her that the only way her actions made sense is if she was screwing him. I just never listened to myself because there was no way my wife would cheat on me. I knew something was right. 1+1 does not equal 3 but I convinced myself it did because it was impossible for her to cheat on me so I never looked into it. Her AP was just such an inconceivable choice to me that I had to much faith in her to be that blatantly stupid.

So it wasnt her lies or acting skills that concealed her affair. Shes not smarter than me and she isnt a great actor. It was my blind trust in my wife that did it. That being said, I do believe her tears and her sorrow. 

Even though I try to put on a facade that I'm okay, she knows I'm not. She told me last night that she feels like dying everyday because she has to look at me slowly die everyday because of what she did. Everyday she has to live with the fact that she destroyed our marriage, screwed up her son, and thinks she screwed up our 5 year old daughters life already. She called herself a ***** and worries every day that one day I will stop forcing myself to be with her. 

She knows that if we didnt have kids, I would have left and never looked back. She knows why I didnt leave after dday and it wasnt because of her. I also told her that the kids kept me from leaving, but its up to her to get me to stay.

So yeah, I think she is living with extreme guilt everyday. How could she not?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

No. All cheaters are evil who never experience anything close to remorse.

(Sarcasm).


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> No. All cheaters are evil who never experience anything close to remorse.
> 
> (Sarcasm).


Even though I said what I said, its still hard to imagine that they do.


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## TwinsDad (Jul 6, 2010)

My cheater wife acted remorseful while at the same time blaming me for her cheating. I think perhaps many people who cheat are just too cowardly to end the marriage the right way AND don't want to give up a comfortable lifestyle with their spouse OR their paramour(s). They want to eat cake. That is how it seems to me.

I don't know what her narrative is now, but I suspect she has somehow justified her behavior by making me into some kind of "abusive" spouse. Whether she feels genuine regret, maybe deep inside, beneath the narcissism.


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

My ex wife does. 

Problem is, I just don't care or need her anymore. 

But she's on rotation for booty calls, that's bout it.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

My h does...because he realizes what an a** he was throwing away the best thing that ever happened to him. ((his words, my knowledge)) 

~sammy


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## NostalgicOne (Mar 24, 2014)

It's HIGHLY doubtful. Mine had been a cheater his whole life I found out during divorce. 

He is STILL cheating on new wife on all the online sites and wherever he can find hookups for his sex addiction.
One problem is, you never will get the Truth out of these types.
The only way they feel pain is if it makes something inconvenient for them.
Another words, they feel sorry for themselves.

My ex used to tell all the new women I was abusive mentally to him and mentally unstable. So all these nice ladies on Match . com and other sites truly felt I was the bad guy while meanwhile I had no clue about his affairs then or that we were unhappy! 

Sooo un nerving when I found the truth and when he was confronted, he blamed me for snooping or told me "I" was crazy and just looking for things.Looking for things??? Emails in hand don't lie! :scratchhead: But, I did blame myself for quite a long time and even wondered if I was crazy,meanwhile he was having more and more random affairs with people online.

In court when My Lawyer presented thousands of emails between him and tons of these affairs/hook-ups to show why I filed on grounds of cheating the Judge asked his Lawyers What was his counter claim -if any- his lawyer said, "On grounds she is an "emotional Woman". LOL
Yeah most injured spouses can get, "emotional".
Too bad these types lack, "emotion".


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Yes. Even though my WW was a unremorseful poster child, eventually there was so much backwash and ramifications for what she’d done not only to herself and who she was, but to everyone near and dear who did judge her on this, that there is extreme guilt and shame. Basically, she see’s what she could of had and how easily it really would have been... and knows she threw that future away forever for what amounts to basically nothing.

So rather than living a fairytale life as the princess... she is the villain, the wicked step-mother, etc. She can no longer be the heroine in her own tale; the actions aren’t heroic and she feels ashamed of who she chose to be. She can always try and rise above, but that past is not erasable. She will always know she was once 'the bad guy'... All I can hope is she'll continue to prove that she doesn't have to or want to be.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> Even though I said what I said, its still hard to imagine that they do.


*I would fully theorize that my skanky XW, even in her private, "alone moments" might truthfully have some degree of conscious remorse for what it was that she did; but for the sheer fear of appearing most unfavorable before her family and friends, and not wanting to be subjected to their summary judgment, that she selectively and self-servingly just chooses to ignore anything and everything about it!

But she would never tell me!*


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> *My answer can only be from strictly hypothetical standpoint. Although she never confessed about her infidelity and I never formally confronted her with the "smoking-gun" evidence of such, my skanky XW has to have some innate sense that I now am reasonably aware of and have a working knowledge of what actually happened between her and both of her "Stage Door Johnnies" in their clandestine, pre-planned junkets, leaving me to tend the farm and the house all while she's off getting herself a little "accidental penis" off behind closed doors in either their locales or in some luxury hotel room!
> *
> *My take is that while she knows the truth, she would never, ever admit to it. And that is the basic reason that she, to this day, refuses to speak to me, much less look me squarely in the eye and tell me "the unfettered truth!" There seems to be a big ol' yellow streak running right down the center of her back that's keeping her from doing that! It could very well be that it just rubbed off on her from all of that rolling around that she was doing with Li'l Lord Lardass and her other paramour!
> *
> ...



Arbitrator... Your posts often make me LOL -- Obviously not due to content, but more the intellectual yet humorous perspective you use. It makes the heavy topic easier to work through


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## Twistedheart (May 17, 2010)

arbitrator said:


> *but for the sheer fear of appearing most unfavorable before her family and friends, and not wanting to be subjected to their summary judgment, that she selectively and self-servingly just chooses to ignore anything and everything about it!
> 
> But she would never tell me!*


Good stuff right there. My soon to be ex W will never admit that to anyone. She is only sorry for getting caught what she was doing 4 years ago. She runs around getting everyone who will listen to her how bad she was treated and how bad she can make me look. Her ability to lie dodge and deflect is amazing. She should run for office. She thinks everyone she meets is her best friend...

The woman has no morals when it comes to doing the right thing. It is all about her, buddy. Eeven now in the midst of divorce she likes to think we're still friends. Like I want 20 texts a day from her about her day. I could care less and never respond unless it's about the kids. But yet she still does it. Insanity? I would block her if we didn't have kids together. It's that bad.

I am telling you it's some kind of character flaw associated with this crap. Hopefully I will be able to sniff this out early if I ever get deeply involved again.

Answer: NO she will never admit how awful she is much less admit feeling any remorse. She may feel it deep down but it isn't enough to change her ways. Sad.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I honestly agree with those that says it depends on the person. I'm a former WS and I felt awful about what I had done. It got to the point where I had to confess. However, I know quite a few waywards that say they are sorry but really don't act like it. These are generally the ones that expect the BS to "get over it" in a very short amount of time. 

I was extremely patient and I didn't push my wife to feel one way or the other. I will add though that it didn't take us three years to return to normal. Everyone is different but we were happy again about a year after D-Day. Are you unhappy all the time or do you just have moments?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Pepper123 said:


> Arbitrator... Your posts often make me LOL -- Obviously not due to content, but more the intellectual yet humorous perspective you use. It makes the heavy topic easier to work through


*Thanks, Pep! It obviously must be the "educated country boy" coming through! Glad that you like it as I'm just all too happy to oblige! *


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Twistedheart said:


> *Good stuff right there*. *My soon to be ex W will never admit that to anyone. She is only sorry for getting caught* what she was doing 4 years ago. *She runs around getting everyone who will listen to her how bad she was treated and how bad she can make me look. Her ability to lie dodge and deflect is amazing. She should run for office. She thinks everyone she meets is her best friend...*
> 
> *The woman has no morals when it comes to doing the right thing. It is all about her, buddy*. Even now in the midst of divorce she likes to think we're still friends. Like I want 20 texts a day from her about her day. I could care less and never respond unless it's about the kids. But yet she still does it. Insanity? I would block her if we didn't have kids together. It's that bad.
> 
> ...


*No, Twisted! That's the good stuff right there in your post! I just aptly call it the lying, deceptive, self-serving mantra of your "garden variety" cheater!

Nothing more! And certainly nothing less!
*


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

I think many do feel guilty for the hurt and paint they caused but just as many while they are sorry for that hurt and pain still feel some justification for their actions.
I'm sorry but any shred of their being that justifies what they did destroys any remorse they may say they have.
You simply cannot believe that you were right in any way to go outside of your marriage and have any kind of relationship, perhaps that is why so many people in Rs struggle for years or it eventually fails.
After being told you were the cause of their choice you drove them to it, your lack of emotional support, you didn't clean the house right, the sex wasn't good enough, the sky was blue, you weren't home or worked too much what are you to do. It can be hard enough to live with the person who crushed you but when they tell you that you crushed yourself because of your behavior it can be something you cannot get past.


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## rustytheboyrobot (Nov 20, 2013)

love=pain said:


> I think many do feel guilty for the hurt and paint they caused but just as many while they are sorry for that hurt and pain still feel some justification for their actions.
> I'm sorry but any shred of their being that justifies what they did destroys any remorse they may say they have.
> You simply cannot believe that you were right in any way to go outside of your marriage and have any kind of relationship, perhaps that is why so many people in Rs struggle for years or it eventually fails.
> After being told you were the cause of their choice you drove them to it, your lack of emotional support, you didn't clean the house right, the sex wasn't good enough, the sky was blue, you weren't home or worked too much what are you to do. It can be hard enough to live with the person who crushed you but when they tell you that you crushed yourself because of your behavior it can be something you cannot get past.


My ex has never expressed any remorse. Clearly her cheating was all my fault and she has worked extra hard to surround herself with that narrative since d-day. Sometimes I wonder if somewhere deep down she knows that what she did was wrong but I will never know. She lives in darkness and if I could never see or talk to her again I would. Unfortunately that's not an option I have.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Mr. IMFAR has felt the pain he caused. He says that sometimes when he is driving alone he will think about what he did, and he can't believe he did it, and he will cry. He has never cried in front of me about it ...so when I'm in a skeptical mood I sometimes have my doubts. But I have to take him on his word, or what else do I have?

Any time he sees I am still in pain because of it, he will apologize again. He's doing his best to become a better man, and in many ways he is.


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## Wideopn Dave (Apr 11, 2013)

My ex wife is still in a relationship with the affair partner; so much for the success rate of relationships that start as affairs. But that's another story altogether.....

I don't believe for one second that my ex wife feels guilty at all. In order for that emotion to be felt, the person would first need to believe that what they did was morally reprehensible; my ex wife doesn't get that notion.

I am the reason she had affairs (5 EA 1 EA/PA)....according to her that is. Her family believe her bull**** as she re-wrote history. My niece even told me about "the past affairs in Joburg and we have people to back that up"......well I must have had out of body experiences because I can't remember those "affairs":scratchhead:

Then went on to say "Its no wonder you drove (ex wife) into the arms of another man"......so, by her value set, and assuming that the alleged affairs on my part happened (which they didn't) then 6 x revenge affairs are justified:scratchhead:

Nope sorry folks, in my experience, the cheater never felt guilty. Indeed it would seem, with family endorsement, her affairs were supported.

She continues on her merry way and while I wish her no ill, I do hope never to have to interact with her ever again. She pulled the wool over my eyes so well for 17yrs of our 19yr "marriage" which it turns out was a one-sided investment emotionally and financially by me. 

When her affair was discovered, she simply pretended to be devastated and sorry for just long enough to get loverboy to guarantee a smooth transition then she jumped ship.

Too bad loverboy doesn't realise that for him at 60yrs old, his 42yr old girlfriend (my ex) is using him as a "parking spot" while she seeks out a suitable replacement that has money (which he don't have) and then he's going to get the shafting of a lifetime. For him i guess it will be fun while it lasts.....

Karma bus is coming to town and its route is preordained.......


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## DarkHoly (Dec 18, 2012)

Some do. Probably fewer than we'd be comfortable with.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

DarkHoly said:


> Some do. Probably fewer than we'd be comfortable with.


Yes. And I don't believe that serial cheaters do.

My stbx said all of the pretty words but dig a bit deeper and *it is all about him.*

I do categorize him as evil. For the emotional abuse he perpetrated against me and the damage he caused my children.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

These past couple of days have been pretty rough at home for me. We havent really been arguing, just discussing her affair.

Shes pretty torn up about it I have to say. Shes calling herself a ***** and why would I want to stay married to one. She said sometimes she wishes she would just die because everyone would be better off without her since she hurt all of us so bad.

She said living with the guilt and shame is too much at times. People look at her with shame, she says, and it hurts. Also, she said the hardest thing to do is to have to watch me slowly die inside from the pain she caused.

So I believe she is genuinely remorseful. It doesnt make me feel better. Nothing really will. All I tell her is for her to funnel all that shame and guilt she feels and turn it into something positive. I told her to turn those negative feelings around and show us love that much more, show me you want me that much more, show me how sorry you are that much more.


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

I don't feel that my WH ever felt true remorse. He just 20 reasons to justify it. I would tell him that all I wanted was for him to say he was sorry he hurt me, he would only parrot it if I told him to, so it was of no help. 

Some may feel remorse. 

In Christian MC there were couples who were speakers who had gotten past affairs. But they felt really terrible for what they had done. Their partners acknowledged that they had moved apart as a couple before the affair, but they did not say it was ok to have the affair in any way, shape or form. You could see the remorse on the WS's face. 

We know our spouses very well, I think you can sense in your gut if they are truly remorseful.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Twistedheart said:


> Good stuff right there. My soon to be ex W will never admit that to anyone. She is only sorry for getting caught what she was doing 4 years ago. She runs around getting everyone who will listen to her how bad she was treated and how bad she can make me look. Her ability to lie dodge and deflect is amazing. She should run for office. She thinks everyone she meets is her best friend...
> 
> The woman has no morals when it comes to doing the right thing. It is all about her, buddy. Eeven now in the midst of divorce she likes to think we're still friends. Like I want 20 texts a day from her about her day. I could care less and never respond unless it's about the kids. But yet she still does it. Insanity? I would block her if we didn't have kids together. It's that bad.
> 
> ...


Sorry but that could not have been your wife - because that's MY wife !!


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## loveforfamily (Mar 13, 2014)

I often wonder, do cheaters get judged harder on down the road than say an alcoholic or drug addicts on down the road for their actions against spouse and family, after remorse, changed life, etc? You know addiction to me, is like a mistress when it comes to choosing this over the higher ground for your life. Just a thought. Maybe wrong thread. Maybe too much devil's advocate before enough coffee.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> I may get slack for this, but I believe my WS tears and sorrows about cheating on me. Yes, cheaters are liars, but the thing is, she was never that great of a liar.
> 
> *I was blinded by trust and faith in her. Every single sign was there, pointing in bright lights to the AP*. I even remember telling her that the only way her actions made sense is if she was screwing him. I just never listened to myself because there was *no way* my wife would cheat on me. I knew something was right. 1+1 does not equal 3 but I convinced myself it did because it was impossible for her to cheat on me so I never looked into it. Her AP was just such an inconceivable choice to me that I had to much faith in her to be that blatantly stupid.
> 
> ...


I have spoken with my therapist many times discussing these same points. I mourn the loss of my naive trust ... it was absolute and unwavering. It's been replaced with a more realistic understanding of the potential of human nature. I comprehend this is growth for me, but I still mourn the simplicity and compassion of trusting absolutely.

I cannot bear to be as hard on her as she is on herself. She knows, but she cannot allow herself to acknowledge. Our R has progressed from Denial --> Blameshifting --> Responsibility. It's not enough though, it has to progress to empathy. The truest expression of remorse is for the WS to allow the transference of a small portion of the emotional pain and show empathy for the BS. What is it to know you have crushed the soul of another human being in a way which can never be repaired?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

My fiance still maintains that he wa "just friends" with his ex and that he was not courting her on our time.

OTOH, his actions has certainly acknowledged that since he immediately gave up "the friendship" with her and cut off all social media ties with her.

Still, though, I can trigger at times. A couple weeks ago, my fiance asked me what was I eating. I said, what I cooked last night. What was that? he asked as if he didn't any of it or had no idea that I cooked the evening before.

Sorry, that reminded me of the bravado that I experienced in the early days when he asked me "what did you do for my birthday" while telling me that his "just a friend" ex had taken him to dinner and given him a birthday card. (the truth of it, as discerned from some written messaging was that he had chased her for a dinner date; made the reservations himself. who paid for it is still not clear although he says she did. he also said in an e-mail thaat she gave him a b-day card but then later admitted that he lied) 

So of course, when he forgets that the nice things that I do for him, it is a trigger that he will have to live with.


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## Emptyshelldad (Apr 29, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> So it wasnt her lies or acting skills that concealed her affair. Shes not smarter than me and she isnt a great actor. It was my blind trust in my wife that did it. That being said, I do believe
> Even though I try to put on a facade that I'm okay, she knows I'm not. She told me last night that she feels like dying everyday because she has to look at me slowly die everyday because of what she did. Everyday she has to live with the fact that she destroyed our marriage, screwed up her son, and thinks she screwed up our 5 year old daughters life already. She called herself a ***** and worries every day that one day I will stop forcing myself to be with her.
> 
> She knows that if we didnt have kids, I would have left and never looked back. She knows why I didnt leave after dday and it wasnt because of her. I also told her that the kids kept me from leaving, but its up to her to get me to stay.


Wow, it's like our stories are very close. Of course my life is different so I made different choices as I work far away. But the feelings are the same. I feel like a cyborg most times. It's like I'm a pilot of a large life like robot that doesn't feel. It's surreal.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

I never really tried to imagine what it must feel like to be my wife right now. This morning, for the first time, I tried to imagine how bad the guilt must feel if i were her. I tried to imagine how horrible I would feel if I had an affair and she didnt know about it.

It would be something that would eat away at me everyday. No matter how happy I was at a particular moment, the guilt would be there to stop it.

It cant be easy for my wife, but its so hard for me to understand that and feel bad for her because she brought this upon herself and nearly destroyed everything I held dear in my life. 

I would really love to hear from a WS who was remorseful. I would love to try and understand the level of guilt, shame, and remorse. I want to know what she feels when she looks at me, what she feels when she sees me when I'm at a low point. I just want to understand.


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## Confused&Afraid (Jan 5, 2014)

Not my WW.

It is always fault of someone else, usually mine. She knows that she is in the wrong for deciding to cheat, but continues doing it and uses the excuse of "not being a proper husband" for her affair.

She is in the process of moving out and texts me how satisfying sprucing up her apartment is and how well it is going. The even has the GALL to say, "Please be happy for me". "I will always care for you, be here for you and I will always be your good friend". 

I have been super calm about this until now, but I really think that I need to say something. Suggestions? I want to be polite(ish) but stern and still convey my feelings about how fuc'ed up her attitude is.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *
> *
> *But as they so aptly say down here in the Great Republic of Texas, "that Ol' Dog just ain't going to hunt!"*


As usual Arbitrator I had a :rofl: moment on reading your post. LOL, the image that your WS and Lord Lardass conjures up in my mind. You really don't want to know. He must have eaten too many of those mighty fine Texan hamburgers. :rofl: 

As for cheaters and remorse? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

We wouldn't need TAM if they were remorseful. But TAM is going as strong as ever last I heard. New posters every day!

By their very nature I wouldn't say cheaters are prone to remorse. If they were, one imagines they would do anything they could for BS in the aftermath. Most importantly they would LISTEN to what BS says they want. 

99% of BS in the first instance ask for the truth. How many get it? Hands up those BS reading this who know what TT means?  True remorse starts with telling the truth as requested. BS can't get too far without it. Right? Neither can BS make an informed decision on whether to stay at all. 

All of you know the cheater's script which is a very fat script crammed with excuses, justificatons, blame-shifting, rug-sweeping and the like which litter these pages. Then there's that old coconut so many BS on TAM are familiar with.. . . 'False R'. 

Remorse? Are you kidding me?

They develop some rather strange symptoms post D-day. There's the sudden onset of deafness when they don't seem to hear what BS says, especially when BS says, "I want to know the truth." They sit there looking perplexed as if caught in the headlights and as if BS was speaking in a strange foreign language. When BS notices the deafness and shouts so they can hear the question more clearly, they become prone to babbling with 'I don't knows' and 'I can't remembers'. Sadly, they also have a sudden onset of memory loss. 

In my considered opinion, the only cheaters who feel true remorse are those who confess *before* they are caught or those who confess to everything *immediately* after being caught. 

R or not, the question which isn't discussed here much always remains. If the cheater wasn't caught, when would it have stopped?


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Confused&Afraid said:


> Not my WW.
> 
> It is always fault of someone else, usually mine. She knows that she is in the wrong for deciding to cheat, but continues doing it and uses the excuse of "not being a proper husband" for her affair.
> 
> ...


"I feel certain you will find the happiness you so richly deserve. I will never find another woman of your equal, hopefully."


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Confused&Afraid said:


> "Please be happy for me". "I will always care for you, be here for you and I will always be your good friend".


Polite-ish but stern suggestion:

"Please understand that I cannot see your treatment of me in the same context as friendship."


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Fenix said:


> Yes. *And I don't believe that serial cheaters do.*
> 
> My stbx said all of the pretty words but dig a bit deeper and *it is all about him.*
> 
> I do categorize him as evil. For the emotional abuse he perpetrated against me and the damage he caused my children.


Good point here. For all those (including me) who believe that cheaters can genuinely feel guilt and remorse at the hurt they cause--does anyone have an example in mind that is not a one-time infidelity? I do not.


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## owl6118 (Jan 30, 2014)

Philat said:


> Good point here. For all those (including me) who believe that cheaters can genuinely feel guilt and remorse at the hurt they cause--does anyone have an example in mind that is not a one-time infidelity? I do not.


IpoH.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Save those with character and mental disorders or illnesses that affect empathy; all cheaters feel _guilty_. Not all are capable of _remorse_. Still it begs the questions of to what extent? What is the difference between guilt and remorse and why is that important when it comes to affairs?

While closely related, guilt and remorse are two distinctly different emotions. Guilt is not a bad thing but it IS a* self-centred* emotion. Guilt is acknowledging you committed a wrongful act and feeling bad because of it. (You do X and feel shame because you know that X is wrong). While _guilt can lead to feelings of remorse;_ guilt isn’t remorse and doesn’t necessarily propel one to do anything to make things right. On the contrary, guilt being a negative, self-centered emotion, it’s very bruising to the ego. Nobody likes to feel like the bad guy. So feeling guilt can lead to other destructive behaviours such as: _deflecting blame, minimizing, justifying, avoiding, self-medicating, punishing one’s self and playing the victim. _

Remorse goes beyond guilt. Where guilt is primarily focused at oneself; remorse is much more _focused on the effects of the wrongs done to the injured person_. Remorse seeks to_ understand _exactly what has been done and is actually being felt by the injured person and requires a great deal of _empathy _that’s based in reality and not projections. Remorse takes the ego out of the equation, it involves acknowledging you did a wrong act and taking _responsibility_ for it, acknowledging the consequences and pain of your victim. It involves feeling _regret_ and sorrow over the hurt you’ve caused the other person. Further it involves the DESIRE to make things right again and the WILLINGNESS to put forth effort to correct things and _make amends_, fix what’s broken and correct the wrongs and help the other person to heal. It’s a very *selfless* and outward emotion. 

Guilt is acknowledging you did something wrong – that’s a prerequisite for remorse. Without guilt there can be no remorse, however one can feel guilty without ever feeling remorseful for doing something wrong. 


A fictitious example of guilt without remorse if you will:
_
“Jane” was invited to her best friend, Susie’s 40th birthday party which was supposed to be one of the biggest social events of the year with all of Susie’s friends and immediate family coming. Jane reluctantly agreed to go even though big crowds make her nervous. On the morning of the party, Jane’s son Tommy got sick with the flu. Seeing an out, Jane called Susie to tell her that she couldn’t go because Tommy was sick and she had to stay home and take care of him. 

Still, Jane felt bad because she wasn’t being honest. She lied by omission because 1) she never wanted to go to the party in the first place and didn’t tell Susie the truth, 2) Jane’s husband had offered to watch Tommy so she could still go to the party. Later that night, Jane overate at dinner and then binged on ice cream for dessert, sabotaging her diet.​_​

In the above example, Jane felt shame (_“I’m a hypocrite, I’m always telling Tommy to tell the truth and I lied.”_). Then Jane deflected the blame for lying back at Susie, (_“Why would Susie invite me in the first place? She knows I don’t like crowds.”_) And felt the victim for being _“forced”_ into lying. Then Jane avoided her bad feelings by using food to escape them and was self-destructive and punishing by over-eating which set-back her weight loss diet.

Jane only focused on herself. She never empathised with how Susie would feel not having her best friend come to her party. She never took responsibility or made amends to Susie by admitting to the lie, going to the party, and offering to clean up like a good guest should. So _though she felt guilt, she never felt remorse_ for having lied to Susie and skipping the party.

I’m sure we’ve all done something wrong like “Jane”, where we felt guilty but never remorseful. True remorse is rare in everyday situations where cheating is not involved. We’ve all done something wrong, felt bad about it but never really came clean or offered to make amends. I know I have. I’m confident that while it does happen, remorse after cheating is rare but guilt is the more common emotion. Believing that remorse is rare, I believe that *it’s NOT remorse that powers voluntary confessions by wayward spouses but rather, it’s guilt*.

Similarly, I have to disagree that only those that confess right away instead of being caught are capable of remorse. Just as how one must fully understand the injury that has been committed against them in order to forgive it, one must fully understand what they have done wrong in order to be sorry. 

In order to feel guilt, one must know that they did something wrong; but in order to feel remorse one must understand in depth what has been broken. One can’t fully understand until the consequences the come after the confession. Only when they bear witness to the reality and destruction – Seeing the devastation in your spouse’s eyes, watching the lights go out in their spirit, hearing them sob, seeing their tears, watching them slip into depression, and lose their faith, feel rage, turn inward and go numb – can they really begin to understand. That’s when the remorse can truly begin. 

Even after a confession, and seeing the devastation sometimes the wayward never goes beyond feeling guilt and the remorse never comes. Alternatively, sometimes it’s instantaneous after seeing the destruction described above; and that seems to me what we all _idealistically_ would want. However, I think more often than not, it takes time for the wayward to process and understand and empathise with the reality of the betrayed’s devastation in order to grow beyond the guilt and the remorse comes later (I know for my spouse it did). 

Unfortunately, sometimes by the time they do, it’s too late.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Twistedheart said:


> Good stuff right there. My soon to be ex W will never admit that to anyone. She is only sorry for getting caught what she was doing 4 years ago. She runs around getting everyone who will listen to her how bad she was treated and how bad she can make me look. Her ability to lie dodge and deflect is amazing. She should run for office. She thinks everyone she meets is her best friend...
> 
> The woman has no morals when it comes to doing the right thing. It is all about her, buddy. Eeven now in the midst of divorce she likes to think we're still friends. Like I want 20 texts a day from her about her day. I could care less and never respond unless it's about the kids. But yet she still does it. Insanity? I would block her if we didn't have kids together. It's that bad.
> 
> ...


:iagree:
Totally. I'm sure that some cheaters feel remorse but I haven't met them. The ones I have met, x wife included, are justifiers. Always someone else's fault or circumstances. Never was it a bad person who did a bad thing. My one very strict rule about dating is to never date anyone who previously cheated on someone. Can't stand people who don't take accountability for their own actions.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Wideopn Dave said:


> My ex wife is still in a relationship with the affair partner; so much for the success rate of relationships that start as affairs. But that's another story altogether.....
> 
> I don't believe for one second that my ex wife feels guilty at all. In order for that emotion to be felt, the person would first need to believe that what they did was morally reprehensible; my ex wife doesn't get that notion.
> 
> ...


Funny how this works isn't it. My x mother in law cheated on both her husbands so of course all was ok with her daughter cheating on me. Apple never falls far from the tree


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

loveforfamily said:


> I often wonder, do cheaters get judged harder on down the road than say an alcoholic or drug addicts on down the road for their actions against spouse and family, after remorse, changed life, etc? You know addiction to me, is like a mistress when it comes to choosing this over the higher ground for your life. Just a thought. Maybe wrong thread. Maybe too much devil's advocate before enough coffee.


Well while drug and alcohol addiction can be considered a disease spreading one's legs for another man cannot even though all of those issues started with poor choices.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Confused&Afraid said:


> Not my WW.
> 
> It is always fault of someone else, usually mine. She knows that she is in the wrong for deciding to cheat, but continues doing it and uses the excuse of "not being a proper husband" for her affair.
> 
> ...


Say: "Hello, exwife! Here is your Cheaterville.com link!"


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

My wife was not sorry she had the affair, but she was sorry she hurt me. I honestly don't think she understood how hurt I would be.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> My wife was not sorry she had the affair, but she was sorry she hurt me. I honestly don't think she understood how hurt I would be.


matt: does she still not make the connection between the two?


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## Confused&Afraid (Jan 5, 2014)

Heh heh heh. Perhaps someday...



MattMatt said:


> Say: "Hello, exwife! Here is your Cheaterville.com link!"


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## Confused&Afraid (Jan 5, 2014)

Hear! Hear!



MattMatt said:


> My wife was not sorry she had the affair, but she was sorry she hurt me. I honestly don't think she understood how hurt I would be.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

********** said:


> In my considered opinion, the only cheaters who feel true remorse are those who confess *before* they are caught or those who confess to everything *immediately* after being caught.


Once again, one size does NOT fit all situations. My ex confessed and I was blindsided. Yet he never once uttered an apology. He told me that even if things didn't work out with his AP, that he STILL wouldn't want to be with me. 

In the next breath, he told me that he "still loved me" and that I "didn't do anything wrong"...

I suspect that he wouldn't have been able to--nor wanted to-- live with his own guilt. He's very aware of his own feelings, and decided that feeling 'bad' about ourselves for ANY REASON is "unhealthy". 

Had we stayed together, even if I never said anything about what he did, my mere _presence_ would have been enough to send him to his wading pool of guilt. 

Do cheaters ever feel genuinely guilty for hurting us? I say it depends on the cheater.

Vega


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Philat said:


> matt: does she still not make the connection between the two?


I have decided to leave that in the past as far as my wife is concerned. It's easier.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*And please don't leave out "deathbed confessions." There was one on here about a year and a half ago that literally ripped my heart out! I really wish that I could remember that guys name! He was an absolute Saint, for forgiving and taking care of his cheating wife who was on her deathbed, not long after her OM literally kicked her to the curb as soon as she had contracted incurable cancer!

Let's just say that my tear glands performed very well for a guy!*


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## jay1365 (May 22, 2013)

Yes, every day. But not in the way you might think. Most of my lingering guilt is about not having the appropriate boundaries, along with some undealt with codependency and abandonment issus, to let our marriage get to the point of my affair. Hurt comes in many forms. She never cheated on me, but it also hurts to b marries to someone who makes an intimate relationship a non-priority after being hd for a decade. Of course the spicket was shut off right after the last child, which makes it much easier to rationalize an affair. Our relationship would probably have been broken up after about a year if I had myself together when we met. We would have broken up and we both would have been spared the pain inflicted on each other after a marriage and two kids. And maybe we both would have found someone we liked to have sex with. It was the guilt of simply going behind her back from day one of the carousing that led me to confess the affair without any suspicion on her part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> *And please don't leave out "deathbed confessions." There was one on here about a year and a half ago that literally ripped my heart out! I really wish that I could remember that guys name! He was an absolute Saint, for forgiving and taking care of his cheating wife who was on her deathbed, not long after her OM literally kicked her to the curb as soon as she had contracted incurable cancer!
> 
> Let's just say that my tear glands performed very well for a guy!*


Is this the one Arb?

If I remember the story correctly the OM didn't dump her, he died in a car accident. Apparently she would have loved to get back in touch with her ex hubby (the OP) but didn't want to hurt him more.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/49839-ex-wife-critically-ill-dont-know-what-do.html


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

ocassionally


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

jay1365 said:


> Yes, every day. But not in the way you might think. Most of my lingering guilt is about not having the appropriate boundaries, along with some undealt with codependency and abandonment issus, to let our marriage get to the point of my affair. Hurt comes in many forms. She never cheated on me, but it also hurts to b marries to someone who makes an intimate relationship a non-priority after being hd for a decade. Of course the spicket was shut off right after the last child, which makes it much easier to rationalize an affair. Our relationship would probably have been broken up after about a year if I had myself together when we met. We would have broken up and we both would have been spared the pain inflicted on each other after a marriage and two kids. And maybe we both would have found someone we liked to have sex with. *It was the guilt of simply going behind her back from day one of the carousing that led me to confess the affair without any suspicion on her part.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What you say is interesting since most BS will tell you that looking back, it's the going behind BS's back, *being lied to* that causes the deepest pain. 

Regardless of how you felt or how you feel now about your wife, you at least cared enough about her as a human being to feel genuine guilt, enough to cause you to confess. That's true remorse in my books. 

You saved her a whole lot more pain though she may never realise it.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

********** said:


> What you say is interesting since most BS will tell you that looking back, it's the going behind BS's back, *being lied to* that causes the deepest pain.


:iagree:

Having her come home that night of the affair. Getting in bed with me, the next morning acting as if nothing happened. Living the lie, projecting her guilt on to me. 

The act of sex is, of course, horrible. The act of deceit for all those months was worse.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> Is this the one Arb?
> 
> If I remember the story correctly the OM didn't dump her, he died in a car accident. Apparently she would have loved to get back in touch with her ex hubby (the OP) but didn't want to hurt him more.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/49839-ex-wife-critically-ill-dont-know-what-do.html


*Wysh: That's it! And I do stand corrected on the status of the OM, however! In any event, for JValley to have been the consumate "Man's Man" and to have done for his terminally ill XW what he did, simply defies both Christian and human compassion.

JValley: If you're ever checking back in here at TAM, please let us hear from you! Just to be in your company and have you in our presence is nothing short of being a great honor!

Thank you so very much for locating that, Wysh!*


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> *Wysh: That's it! And I do stand corrected on the status of the OM, however! In any event, for JValley to have been the consumate "Man's Man" and to have done for his terminally ill XW what he did, simply defies both Christian and human compassion.
> 
> JValley: If you're ever checking back in here at TAM, please let us hear from you! Just to be in your company and have you in our presence is nothing short of being a great honor!
> 
> Thank you so very much for locating that, Wysh!*


Yep, someone who I would be honoured to call a friend.

And to be honest, although it was a tragic ending his ex wife came across as having some decency.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Having her come home that night of the affair. Getting in bed with me, the next morning acting as if nothing happened. Living the lie, projecting her guilt on to me.
> 
> The act of sex is, of course, horrible. The act of deceit for all those months was worse.


*I know, all too well, how you feel about that, hawx! I was largely in the same boat!

I didn't have the first damn clue about my rich, skanky XW's out-of-town escapades, when she'd finally get back home, usually late at night, and then rattle my bones around as to keep from arousing any undue suspicion on my part. And, in all probably, she had already summarily hauled L'il Lord Lardasses ashes earlier on that very same day, and there I was as her husband so happy to see her, but unknowingly receiving a steady ration of something between "sloppy seconds" and "filthy fourths!" ~ All while I so dupingly thought that I was the only man in the world for her! 

The sex itself can largely be forgotten about. Most antibiotics can take care of that! It's her blatant deceit that, no matter how hard you try, will always be remembered, much like being repeatedly and endlessly stabbed in the heart by an indestructible dagger!*


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I spent a year living a double life in an affair 16 years ago.

It was the most emotionally, mentally damaging thing I have ever done to myself and my Ex as well.

Yes, I felt genuinely guilty and still do.

While I don't regret the loss of the relationship I am deeply ashamed of the way I did it.
I was a weak cowardly person who didn't have the maturity and self awareness to behave in an ethical manner and simply end the relationship.

The pain I inflicted on myself for that year coupled with the pain my Ex dealt with for years afterward is exactly why I'll never go down that road again.

I barely made it through without a complete emotional breakdown.
My Ex wasn't so lucky.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *I know, all too well, how you feel about that, hawx! I was largely in the same boat!
> 
> I didn't have the first damn clue about my rich, skanky XW's out-of-town escapades, when she'd finally get back home, usually late at night, and then rattle my bones around as to keep from arousing any undue suspicion on my part. And, in all probably, she had already summarily hauled L'il Lord Lardasses ashes earlier on that very same day, and there I was as her husband so happy to see her, but unknowingly receiving a steady ration of something between "sloppy seconds" and "filthy fourths!" ~ All while I so dupingly thought that I was the only man in the world for her!
> 
> The sex itself can largely be forgotten about. Most antibiotics can take care of that! It's her blatant deceit that, no matter how hard you try, will always be remembered, much like being repeatedly and endlessly stabbed in the heart by an indestructible dagger!*


You know what really kills me more than anything? Its not the sex, not the deception afterwards....which dont get me wrong, are absolutely horrible....

The one thing that has always bothered me the most, and continues to haunt me is the premeditation of it all. It haunts me to think of the night she left to have sex with him.

She lied about going out with trusted friends. She got all prettied up for him while I was downstairs taking care of our kids. She probably kissed us good bye when she left, I probably told her I loved her and to be careful. She drove to the hotel and did it.

I wonder what was going through her head. How narcissistic must one be to be able to do everything I just described and walk out the door knowing everything you were planning to do to your loving husband and children. I just couldnt do it. The guilt of even planning it would have snapped me out of it.

But...I'm not broken like she was. My family gave me all the strength and validation I needed. She needed that from strangers.


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## Twistedheart (May 17, 2010)

And don't forget to add that it was your fault, hawx20! These people are capable of anything. Literally. It is a different breed.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

tacoma said:


> I spent a year living a double life in an affair 16 years ago.
> 
> It was the most emotionally, mentally damaging thing I have ever done to myself and my Ex as well.
> 
> ...


This is why I dont believe in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" and why I believe I stand a better chance of not being cheated on by my wife rather than another female I may have met had we divorced.

My wife was in a bad place mentally when she had her affair. All she cared about was fixing her insecurities and she never stopped to think about the aftermath.

When it finally hit like a nuclear bomb in her face, it shattered her world and her perception of herself. She is so damaged right now and she knows how much worse she would be had I left. Hell, shes on the edge of having an emotional breakdown now, I told her imagine how she would be had she lost me and the kids.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Twistedheart said:


> And don't forget to add that it was your fault, hawx20! These people are capable of anything. Literally. It is a different breed.



Well thats where I have to give her some credit. She never once tried to shift the blame. She made it very clear it was her stupidity and her issues that caused this.

That being said though, I'm sure while she was having the affair she justified it by saying it was me, not her. But thats just me speculating. Again, she never once tried to blame me in any way, shape, or form.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> This is why I dont believe in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" and why I believe I stand a better chance of not being cheated on by my wife rather than another female I may have met had we divorced.
> 
> My wife was in a bad place mentally when she had her affair. All she cared about was fixing her insecurities and she never stopped to think about the aftermath.
> 
> When it finally hit like a nuclear bomb in her face, it shattered her world and her perception of herself. She is so damaged right now and she knows how much worse she would be had I left. Hell, shes on the edge of having an emotional breakdown now, I told her imagine how she would be had she lost me and the kids.


*Until such time that I can personally see it for myself and proven otherwise, I cannot help but believe in the social theorem of "once a cheater, always a cheater!" And I know all too well that there are exceptions to every rule!

The only thing about it, hawx, is that for every one wayward woman that is out there, much like your W, there are at least 10 more of them floating around that are either in fast denial of their sordid actions, or have come to feel totally justified in the performance of those actions; and as such, absolutely refuses to take ownership of any of their perceived problems!

It's so totally regrettable that my rich, skanky, self-serving XW chooses to only subscribe to the latter group!

Edit: And I totally agree with you about the premeditation aspect of it; only I feel that it is just as much damaging as the resultant deception and the wanton concealment. Hiding something of a negative nature, like concealment or deception, is largely chalked-up to being a negative element of "human nature." The premeditation aspect of it, clearly is not!*


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> This is why I dont believe in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" and why I believe I stand a better chance of not being cheated on by my wife rather than another female I may have met had we divorced.


I agree completely, hawx, based on my own experience (others may reach a different conclusion based on their experience, of course). I consider my W, who did cheat, my "best bet" (to use wazza's apt terminology) going forward. There are no guarantees anywhere.


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## SteveK (Mar 15, 2014)

My wife takes no responsibility what so ever for her actions. She completely puts everything on me.

Even her attorney told mine that she was shocked that STBXW refuses to see her part in it.

She is justifying her affair by saying God brought her to the POSOM to recuse her from her unhappy marriage and unhappy life.

She says she is sorry and feels terrible that it had to happen the way it did, but again its about her.

I saw a text where she texted the POS that she has her ups and downs but shes getting better. I believe again its her missing her son, life and house.

I am not saying i did not play a part of this..i blame myself 65% for the Marital issues, but the affair..NO WAY.

Can you believe that the night before she ran away she said to me " I guess i owe you an apology for my Emotional affair..I am sorry"

Then I caught her in it again and she went into hiding.....Why because she did not want me to lecture her or WORSE!!!

All I wanted was my wife back...


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Philat said:


> I agree completely, hawx, based on my own experience (others may reach a different conclusion based on their experience, of course). I consider my W, who did cheat, my "best bet" (to use wazza's apt terminology) going forward. There are no guarantees anywhere.


:iagree:

Point is, if my wife cheats again, after seeing the absolute destruction she caused....well it would be such an act of pure evil. It would be so evil that I would be glad she did it so I could rid myself of her filth. Hopefully it wont ever come to that. 

*arbitrator*, i totally get what you're saying, I guess i'm one of the unlucky lucky ones so far. I cant imagine how much harder this would have been had she been anything but the way shes being now.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Twistedheart said:


> And don't forget to add that it was your fault, hawx20! These people are capable of anything. Literally. It is a different breed.


*I cannot help but believe that the vast majority of waywards would never, ever take ownership for their sordid actions and would greatly choose to simply march before God on Judgment Day, continuing to justify their sordid actions on those very same grounds that they are expousing now!*


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Point is, if my wife cheats again, after seeing the absolute destruction she caused....well it would be such an act of pure evil. It would be so evil that I would be glad she did it so I could rid myself of her filth. Hopefully it wont ever come to that.
> 
> *arbitrator*, i totally get what you're saying, I guess i'm one of the unlucky lucky ones so far. I cant imagine how much harder this would have been had she been anything but the way shes being now.


*Hawx: You are one very caring H to take R to the point that you have, greatly given your personal circumstances, and for doing that, I totally wish you well!

Let's just say that by your inclination to want to do that to possibly save your marriage, you're a far better man than I am, or ever will be, and I simply cannot help but to admire you for that!*


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I reflect back every day of my life...not only do I feel overwhelmed by the guilt of what I did...but I would give anything if I could undo what I did. Was the affair worth it? OMG...worth stabbing your spouse in the heart? Worth thirty years of triggering for both of us? Worth destroying the innocence of our marriage? No...it was not worth it...because the one thing I want and cannot do is to undo it.


OP, you don't need anything more than this to answer your question.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Arbitrator....I know you are a religious man...no let me resay that...I know you are my brother in Christ. I know that I have been forgiven by my husband ...but he will never forget. I know that I have been forgiven by my Heavenly Father ...and his word says if I have repented and turned away from my sin to *sin no more*...I will receive a crown of righteousness. My sin is removed as far as the east is from the west. I know these things....
> 
> But applying them to my own sin is very difficult for me. It is not easy to not continue to flogg myself. I think I am so worried that I will grow too comfortable....I never want to forget what I have done...I want to remain humble.
> 
> ...


You seem to be a good woman ma'am. Unfortunate that not all are the same in moral compass as you. The religious thing I admit has become a large trigger for me. My x ripped my heart out, never asked for my forgiveness and never took the blame. But I remember clearly as she was walking out the door, smacking bubble gum like it was another day in paradise, saying that she asked god for forgiveness and so she was going to be ok....... To this day I can't be with anyone devoutly religious and refuse to step foot in a church outside of work reasons. People who justify or use the church as a get out of jail free card sicken me. I glad to hear you are not all the same ma'am so thank you for that


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

arbitrator said:


> *Until such time that I can personally see it for myself and proven otherwise, I cannot help but believe in the social theorem of "once a cheater, always a cheater!" And I know all too well that there are exceptions to every rule!
> 
> The only thing about it, hawx, is that for every one wayward woman that is out there, much like your W, there are at least 10 more of them floating around that are either in fast denial of their sordid actions, or have come to feel totally justified in the performance of those actions; and as such, absolutely refuses to take ownership of any of their perceived problems!
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Couldn't agree more. Yes I am certain beyond a doubt that some people, men and women, can cheat once then never again. I don't think that makes them righteous....just able to learn from their mistakes. That said I have never met them personally. Everyone I know who was cheated on, self included, it happened multiple time. So as this is my personal experience that is also my opinion on the matter.

I also don't agree that everyone can make a mistake and cheat as some have indicated on other threads. Through my marriage I was tempted often and even when drunk I still said no and went home to my then wife. 

What hurts the most as a BS is the choice, not the sex. I was presented with options to cheat, had every reason to do it but the most important one...it's not the right thing to do. So I CHOSE not to cheat. My x was presented same scenario and CHOSE to cheat. It's the choice she made that hurt. I deserved to have her make the better choice but she didn't. That's what still sticks with me. 

So now single and dating I hold someone's past up to light that I am considering having a relationship with. the cheating thing is an immediate deal breaker. This person once CHOSE to do the wrong thing, I won't be next in line to see if they make the better choice in the future .


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Arbitrator....I know you are a religious man...no let me resay that...I know you are my brother in Christ. I know that I have been forgiven by my husband ...but he will never forget. I know that I have been forgiven by my Heavenly Father ...and his word says if I have repented and turned away from my sin to sin no more...I will receive a crown of righteousness. My sin is removed as far as the east is from the west. I know these things....
> 
> But applying them to my own sin is very difficult for me. It is not easy to not continue to flogg myself. I think I am so worried that I will grow too comfortable....I never want to forget what I have done...I want to remain humble.
> 
> ...


*Mrs. JA: Had I been in Mr. JA's shoes, and seeing and feeling your heartfelt remorse and total confession, I could not help but forgive you and offer you R.

In my own situation, if my XW drove over here, asked to talk, and gave me the most heartfelt confession to her shortcomings, freely and unhesitatingly answered all questions, and I saw and felt her total remorse to the depth of her soul, as a Christian man, I could not help but offer my forgiveness. I would no longer refer to her as a "skank." But because of the lengthy timeframe of the separation and subsequent divorce, because of what she has done that has all but drove me from a comfortable loving lifestyle almost into a near state of abject poverty; and being that my heart is still in the process of nearly being healed, I could never opt for R with her. That's my choice!

Mr. JA chose that, despite your shortcomings, that he still loved you so much that you were totally worth it! He was being Christlike! In all honesty, I really don't think that I can say that! Unfortunately, there are times when I feel that I may have, but far more when I feel that I have not! But despite those often jaded feelings of mine, I do know how to forgive and then move on! But I would be a total fool to ever forget about what it was that happened to me!

Christ was deceived by some of his own loving disciples in different ways, but he unselfishly, in his own way, offered them solace. I really don't know if any mortal man could ever do that, or even dying up on that cross to offer us a haven in eternity. But we should try to act accordingly

Mr. JA is one in a million! Cherish that fact, just as he cherishes you! Unlike way too many of us, he knows the true and unfettered power in the extending of forgiveness!*


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Yes my friend...John was being Christlike....and I was Judas wasn't I? I deceived and lied to the only man I have ever loved...
> He is a one in a million...but I can think of several here just like him...hawx, philat, stonewall, are a few that come to mind...and then Kristin, broken vows, several dear ladies here who have also chosen to reconcile.
> 
> It is heartbreaking to think of the pain so many here have experienced at the hands of those they love...
> ...


*(1) With regard to my XW, I fully don't expect that to happen! She is rich, vain, and image-conscious. But then again, you never know what hand of cards that the Heavenly Father may ultimately come to deal you, in the way that He chooses to spread His love and presence in this seemingly unrepentant and love-starved world. If she knocked on my door, I would welcome her in, and hear her totally out, inclusive of me asking some rather poignant questions. If she offers the truth, I would hug her, hold her, and most likely through tears, I would verbally forgive her. But the hardest part would be that I would tell her that there was no chance for R as my new life, and my renewed relationship with Christ has started anew.
She absolutely loves my boys(who are not her sons) and for that, I am eternally grateful. But God does not want me to go back to that oppulent lifestyle ~ it is so "not me!" But I would remain friendly and try to reclaim all of the love that I felt and received from her extended family.

(2) Which goes to show what a fine man that God has chosen to bless you with and that He, indeed, wanted you to have; in giving you the opportunity at having a "second chance." Mr. JA is a true Man of God, and for that, be most thankful. Because he has learned and knows the true power in foregiveness, cherish him, and thank God as often as you can for His continued presence in your life every single day! I'm so very sorry in being so repetitive!*


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> You are the arbitrator...you can repeat yourself if you want to:biggrinangelA:


*And I'll make you this one promise: If you should ever see, at some future point in time, that I am not continually referring to my XW as a "skank," then you'll know for sure that she has summarily asked me for, and been extended forgiveness!

But you'll, no doubt, find that out from a "news flash" post that I'll be making here on TAM, probably after having incurred some rather severe chest pains! Sorry for being so caustic!*


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

Wow, Mrs. Adams, such deep posts. I know how you have tried, I know you know my pain, I know you feel guilty.

I know I am a very lucky man to have you. I know I love you more than life.

I also know over the past 30 years I have wallowed in self pity. Even with a remorseful spouse it is so hard not to feel sorry for yourself.

Everyone is different, everyone has different needs and will approach adultery in a different way. But, I knew you were worth the gamble to try again. You have not disappointed.

I am proud to approach the final chapter of my life with the woman of my dreams.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Once a cheater is a label that any wayward will always have not because they may cheat again but they crossed a line, somewhere inside the ability to make such a horrendous choice lives. Many will learn from it and never do it again, some may be good for a time then relapse and others well revolving doors get less action.

A murderer will always be a murderer even if they never take another life, if you can find it in yourself to go that far you have the ability to do it again, cheater are the same.


Quick note
I am not religious grew up in it saw if all as fake still do, if you find religion(no matter what type) and it can help you then I think that's great, I respect anyone's choices in that area. With that anyone who hides behind religion or is flippant about being "forgiven" by their god should be stoned(see I know my bible), if you truly believe that your god has forgiven you and is helping you past your troubles then you are and it is, those other ones well they don't have any guilt about anything anyhow.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Yes mr. Adams...I have my moments...
> 
> I try to stay out of this section...but the ops post beckoned to me.
> 
> ...


*And there's one old worn-out Texas Arbitrator that is so damn admirable and proud of you both! Love you guys!*


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *
> 
> Edit: And I totally agree with you about the premeditation aspect of it; only I feel that it is just as much damaging as the resultant deception and the wanton concealment. Hiding something of a negative nature, like concealment or deception, is largely chalked-up to being a negative element of "human nature." The premeditation aspect of it, clearly is not!*


Its weird, the concealment doesnt bother me nearly as much as everything else. I guess thats the only part I can understand. She screwed up and was afraid of the consequences.

I can understand the fear, I cant understand what she could have possibly been thinking leading up to the encounter. Thats why its harder for me.

Also, you stated I was a better man than you for taking R. Well, thats only because I have a remorseful W. Had my W been like many of the other waywards who showed no remorse, you best believe I'd be in the middle of WW3 right now fighting back with everything I had.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Well I finally told my wife about the book Mrs. Adams suggested ready by Linda McDonald. In the nearly 10 years I've known my wife, I have never seen her read a book. I'm kind of surprised she is reading it as intensely as she is.

I have to say, it is a good book and it really is opening her eyes. The part about the WS focusing to much on their guilt and shame really struck her because she was doing that a lot. After reading half of it the other night she came over to me and just hugged me for a very long time with tears in her eyes.

Also, last night we were watching TV. She was watching her favorite show, I was playing a game on my handheld with my headphones on. After it was over she came up to me, tears in her eyes and hugged me tight telling me how sorry she was and how much she loved me.

I had no clue what was going on with her but apparently the episode was about the couple going through an affair and the kids found out. I guess it hit close to home for her and it shocked me because I had no idea why she was crying.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Hawx...I am so very happy to hear this! I just had a feeling if she read this book things would pop for her! It sure did for me!
> 
> God...I am happy for you!!!! She means it babe....I just have a true gut feeling about this!


Thank you!

I really hope so. My concern isnt so much the present as it is the future. 5-10 years from now is my major concern. I know I learned a bit from this. I'm trying to be more outgoing and treat life differently than before. Hopefully she realized what I always told her that the only thing that truly matters in our life our us and the kids.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> Its weird, the concealment doesnt bother me nearly as much as everything else. I guess thats the only part I can understand. She screwed up and was afraid of the consequences.
> 
> I can understand the fear, I cant understand what she could have possibly been thinking leading up to the encounter. Thats why its harder for me.
> 
> Also, you stated I was a better man than you for taking R. Well, thats only because I have a remorseful W. Had my W been like many of the other waywards who showed no remorse, you best believe I'd be in the middle of WW3 right now fighting back with everything I had.


*I agree with you, but only to a certain extent! The thing going for you is that your WW timely showed remorse and summarily requested R early on in the relationship.

My skanky XW has not. She never will! Hell, we're even divorced now! Hypothetically, if she beat on my residence door today, confessed to everything, asked for forgiveness, and for me to take her back; I'd honor everything she asked for ~ save one thing ~ There will be no R, period!

I have moved too far along in my recovery process to ever have to subject myself to her track record, and to sitting up late at night worrying about when and whom that she would be making a repeat performance with!*


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Does it matter whether they feel genuine guilt? Can they ever understand our pain? No. As long as they aren't in our shoes and walked a few miles would they ever understand.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

WhiteRaven said:


> Does it matter whether they feel genuine guilt? Can they ever understand our pain? No. As long as they aren't in our shoes and walked a few miles would they ever understand.


For me it certainly does matter because the fact that she has no remorse about it at all makes every minute I spent with her a lie. Had she cheated but at least been remorseful about it our marriage still would have ended but least I would have looked back at good times and thought some of our marriage was good she just ****ed it up. 

But as it is, since she has no guilt and not a care about it, my only conclusion is she NEVER loved me. All the time we spent, all the vacations, the birth of our children, while I thought we were blessed (I was religious then) she wanted something more. 

No she can never understand what it feels like and I hope some day someone does to her what she did to me. But it would be nice to know she at least feels bad for all the people she has hurt


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> We all process pain differently. For example...child birth is child birth..right? But some can bear the pain enough to have their children with no drugs. Some want to be knocked out...some want pain blockers.
> 
> Does it still hurt..of course it does....and there will be women who say no one ever had as much pain as I did. How can they know that?
> 
> ...


The pain I was talking is the pain of being replaced, the pain about not being worth loyalty, the pain of their love being pointless, the pain of their trust being shattered. I'm sorry to say ma'am it's something you understand when you're there, suffering. 

Your pain is guilt. It's not the same. But it's pain nonetheless.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> My pain is from both sides of the coin...and the pain I feel from my affair hurts me much worse than the pain I feel from his affair.


When did Mr JA have an A?:scratchhead:


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> A couple of years after mine...a revenge affair. We don't discuss it much...


*I was not acutely aware of that either. But in any event, it has seemingly made the both of you work harder to salvage the love of this union, despite all of the inherent pain borne by each of you. It does not tarnish my feelings for either of you!

And greatly despite that, I continue to admire your marked resilience and your heartfelt admiration and love for each other!
*


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

love=pain said:


> A murderer will always be a murderer even if they never take another life, if you can find it in yourself to go that far you have the ability to do it again, cheater are the same.


I know a guy who was a prison guard. He's talked about some of the murderers he's dealt with... some he knows will never repeat. 

These are the guys that killed the child molester that molested their kid... or the guy that raped his sister... so on. Unless something that horrendous happens again, they won't repeat.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> A couple of years after mine...a revenge affair. We don't discuss it much...


This may be to personal a question so feel free not to answer but I have heard of these revenge affairs. I wonder if my marriage had stayed together would I have done the same? Did it make him feel any better or only worse?

Wolf


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> A couple of years after mine...a revenge affair. We don't discuss it much...


Welcome to the BS club, Mrs JA.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> A couple of years after mine...a revenge affair. We don't discuss it much...


I'm just curious how much Mr JA regrets it? Not going all the way to prove a point does have some level of score settling while not giving up the moral high ground.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

larry.gray said:


> I know a guy who was a prison guard. He's talked about some of the murderers he's dealt with... some he knows will never repeat.
> 
> These are the guys that killed the child molester that molested their kid... or the guy that raped his sister... so on. Unless something that horrendous happens again, they won't repeat.


I agree with you. I have dedicated my life to protecting and serving but I can tell you this if someone hurt either of my daughters I would hunt that person to the end of the earth to hurt them or kill them depending on what they did. That doesn't put me in the same category as one of our gang members who kills another over drugs or money. Big difference


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> *I deserved it.*


Are you in favor of revenge affairs?


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

The pain of a BS and a WS are obviously different. One aspect of a truly remorseful WS’s pain is uniquely agonizing. They made a decision. The BS did not. 

If they chose to R they find themselves in a pit of their own making alongside their spouse.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

Without going into many of the details....which I do not mind doing. Yes, I had a revenge affair. Do I regret it, yes. Did it make me feel better, no. I had never heard of a revenge affair before coming here, but I certainly see the correlation. 

I have also posted on here that I did not like the person I became after my wife's affair. This was certainly one of the outcomes of the person I had become.

We are very fortunate that we made it through all of these bad times.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

johnAdams said:


> Without going into many of the details....which I do not mind doing. Yes, I had a revenge affair. Do I regret it, yes. Did it make me feel better, no. I had never heard of a revenge affair before coming here, but I certainly see the correlation.
> 
> I have also posted on here that I did not like the person I became after my wife's affair. This was certainly one of the outcomes of the person I had become.
> 
> We are very fortunate that we made it through all of these bad times.


Thank you for sharing sir


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> 1) I deserved it because of what I had done... 2) but it was still wrong.


Doesn't 1) and 2) contradict each other?

You and Mr JA love each other. Isn't that reason enough that both your As should be in the past where they belong? 

I'd like Mr JA to say what he thinks about 1).


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

WhiteRaven said:


> Doesn't 1) and 2) contradict each other?
> 
> You and Mr JA love each other. Isn't that reason enough that both your As should be in the past where they belong?
> 
> I'd like Mr JA to say what he thinks about 1).


No one deserves to be cheated on. An eye for an eye is not the right thing to do.


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## SteveK (Mar 15, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> You seem to be a good woman ma'am. Unfortunate that not all are the same in moral compass as you. The religious thing I admit has become a large trigger for me. My x ripped my heart out, never asked for my forgiveness and never took the blame. But I remember clearly as she was walking out the door, smacking bubble gum like it was another day in paradise, saying that she asked god for forgiveness and so she was going to be ok....... To this day I can't be with anyone devoutly religious and refuse to step foot in a church outside of work reasons. People who justify or use the church as a get out of jail free card sicken me. I glad to hear you are not all the same ma'am so thank you for that


Imagine your wife using religion as the reason for her new relationship. Telling people that god brought her and OM together In Israel. And why were you in Israel?mon a religious retreat. Yes god violated his own commandments because you and your new found jerk are Soul-mates.

Now they are invited to all these religious events because they lie and don't tell people we are still married and that she's moving back home ! 

Talk about hiding behind god...and to make matters worse she plans on going as a chaperone on a religious tour for teenagers with him in June!

Where karma when you need it...


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

SteveK said:


> Imagine your wife using religion as the reason for her new relationship. Telling people that god brought her and OM together In Israel. And why were you in Israel?mon a religious retreat. Yes god violated his own commandments because you and your new found jerk are Soul-mates.
> 
> Now they are invited to all these religious events because they lie and don't tell people we are still married and that she's moving back home !
> 
> ...


Why may I ask have you not told these groups the truth? Insead of just complaining about it to us?


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

> Looking back, do the cheaters ever feel genuinely guilty for hurting us?


No because they could never in their wildest dreams know the extent of the pain they caused. Therefore, the depth of their guilt can never even come close to what it should be.

Mostly they feel sorry for themselves and whip themselves with one of their socks for being so mean. Deep down they think, "BS didn't give me attention, didn't want as much sex any more, didn't seem interested in me any more...blah, blah blah." The real nasty ones even give some of those reasons to BS by way of an excuse. Shame WS just didn't just divorce BS and put them out of their misery in one fell swoop. Far, far kinder. 

So in short? *NOPE!*


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## Whip Morgan (May 26, 2011)

I believe some do feel guilt. The ones who are truly remorseful and trying their hardest to reconcile. A lot of cheaters who half-ass R, and not do what we say is the heavy lifting , they do not. 

I think a big obstacle to a betrayed spouse is the overwhelming desire for the cheater to hurt as much as the betrayed does. The problem is... They cannot and never will. Because they are the perpetrators of the crime. That's why I don't buy into the idea of "revenge affairs." If a betrayed spouse goes out and cheats, no matter how Much, the originally cheating spouse can NEVER truly feel and understand the pain we go through. The moment when your stomach drops, the horrible realization of what he/she has done. No, that awful pain cannot be fully understood by a cheater. Which comes back to guilt. 

For a betrayed spouse , does the cheater ever feel guilty enough? Maybe. It's not helpful to compare one persons pain to another , but I think it's human nature for the desire for the person who has betrayed us to feel that pain. Problem is they will never experience it the way we do. So in our minds, does their feeling of guilt make us feel better?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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