# I'm pregnant with the second child but we don't want it



## marasoy (May 5, 2017)

Hi there,
I'm not sure what I'm after here. I just probably need to talk to someone. While I understand that we all have very different opinions especially on such things as abortions, but please don't get this into pro-choice vs pro-life. This is not the point. The point is that I'm really struggling with what shall I do.

I'm pregnant with my second child. I'm 7 weeks at most. The problem is that neither my husband nor I want this baby. Right now is not the right time. 

First, of all i had a terrible first pregnancy, and I mean terrible. I suffered from such a horrible depression. I do mean horrible. And anyone who knows me just a little bit will tell you it's so out of my character. But those hormones ****ed me up really bad. Plus spewing my guts out for 8 months was not that fun either. The thought of being pregnant again makes me want to curl in the ball and rock myself to sleep. Which I'm probably gonna do once I finish this.

Secondly, things are just starting to get better. Our first one is almost 3, and we are finally managing to survive. She was a difficult baby and is a very difficult toddler. My husband and I both struggled with being parents. For both of us parenting brought out the worst in us. And we are just starting to feel like human beings again. So to through all of it again just seems unthinkable!

Finally, we can't afford it financially. I've just started to get my career on track. i love my job, I want to carry on working. I'm not your stay at home mom, that's for sure. No judgement to stay at home mums, I think you are heroes, i have no idea how you do it, but I just can't do it. I need to work! And I'm the main bread-winner in the family. If I take a maternity leave it means I'll miss out on a lot of promotions, but what worse my husband will have to go back to the job he hates, to the job that almost destroyed him. He spent last 5 years creating a new career, but he'll have to give it up so we can afford another kid. And I just can't bring myself to do this to him.

But even after considering everything above, I still can't decide if I should have an abortion. The thing is that now seems to be the right time for our daughter to have a sibling. I feel like if we don't have a second one now, we'll never do it. We'll never be able to give up that little precious balance that we worked so hard for. We both want our daughter to have a sibling. We really really do. But is that enough to close the eyes on everything above. 


Thank you.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Why dont you make a list of the pros and cons. I have personal beliefs on this but wont share them with you.
You have to remember single children are usually very lonely, and time can improve a lot of things when the kids get older


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Definitely don't have a child you don't want. I think that if you have this child anyway, everyone will end up unhappy, new child included. He/she would certainly pick up on the mixed feelings and tension, not to mention all the reasons you listed for a second child being a bad idea (and only one reason you think it would be a good idea). Sticking with one sounds like the most realistic option for you.

(P.S. I don't think being an only child necessarily equals loneliness. One can be lonely in a larger family depending on the dynamic and health of the family system. Personally, I enjoyed being an only child. A sibling would've made things harder for me.)


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

You sound terribly depressed right now. 
Whichever decision you decide, please make sure that you take care of your mental health. 
Do you have any family support other than your husband? 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

This choice is really going to be up to you and your husband, so I agree with making a pros/cons list and really talking everything out with each other. Hold nothing back.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Make your list now. As the others said, discuss this with your husband. 

Time is important.

I suspect you are correct, in your own observation that if you don't have this child you may never have another. 

Please be well. This is such an important decision. Never be afraid to cry.


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## Primrose (Mar 4, 2015)

Why would your husband have to give up this career if you have this baby? 

If PPD is a concern, your OB can put you on a low dose of AD's during your pregnancy. He did so with me and I had zero PPD after my third child was born (did with my first two). 

Third, not every pregnancy is the same. You could possibly go on to have a smooth pregnancy with this baby.

With that said-

I will not advocate for bringing a baby into this world that is not wanted. If you want to proceed with abortion, I fully encourage you to make this decision as soon as possible. 

Being an only child is not the end of the world. I have family members and friends who are only children and most of them are happy with their parents' decision. Some even went on to have single child households themselves. So, no, it is not a guaranteed lonely life for your daughter. 

If you do decide to terminate your pregnancy, please be responsible from here on out. There's very little excuse for unwanted pregnancies nowadays. Clinics offer free birth control (or for a sliding scale fee) and condoms are inexpensive as well. I am pro-choice, but I am also pro-take charge of your reproductive health at the same time.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Every pregnancy is different. Your first pregnancy being rough doesn't necessarily mean this pregnancy will be as hard. My first pregnancy was "normal mode". My 2nd pregnancy was "hard mode" with extended morning sickness, depression, high blood pressure, blood sugar issues, and a few other complications. My 3rd pregnancy was "easy mode".

If you decide to keep the baby, talk to your OB about getting some medication for depression if it rears it's head again. There are meds safe to take dueing pregnancy, if you need them.

All babies are different, too. Just because your first baby was difficult doesn't mean the next one or more would be. My oldest was a moderate pain in my rear. My middle was hell on wheels. My youngest was super easygoing. 

The expense can be reduced. I did a lot of thrift store and sale shopping. Especially for the summer clothes that I knew were going to get ruined playing outside anyway. We all bring lunch from home, including a container of coffee or tea. We paid off DH's car a decade ago and bought my minivan gently used, so we don't have car payments. We check out local free events (ex:every year our local museums do a free admission night with activities, music, and food vendors) and festivals. There are a lot of changes you can make that may allow your DH to keep his job.

whatever you decide, good luck.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

manwithnoname said:


> First thing that comes to mind is:
> *
> You list 3 reasons why being pregnant is terrible for you, were those reasons not there when the penis entered the vagina unsheathed?*
> 
> ...


That's a bit of a presumption, isn't it? (Birth control methods. Not 100% effective 100% of the time.)


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

What's done is done. As another suggested, not all pregnancies are the same. Is adoption of the child a consideration?


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Like mucking up what she should have done is helpful?

She needs helpful advice, not harmful blaming about things that are water under the bridge.

Where to go from this place. There is no easy answer.

I can only offer a virtual shoulder to cry on.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> That's a bit of a presumption, isn't it? (Birth control methods. Not 100% effective 100% of the time.)


Oh, so true!



jb02157 said:


> Seems that some thinking/family planning should have come into play before the above happened.


My oldest is a Pill baby. I had a lung infection and was given antibiotics. No one told me that antibiotics can reduce the effectiveness of the Pill or warned me to use a back up method until I was off the antibiotics, so I became pregnant.

After the Pill issue, I switched to condoms. My 2nd child is a condom baby.

My friend, B, got pregnant TWICE after having a tubal ligation.

Truly, no method of birth control is 100%


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

When our third baby was born my wife had a tubal ligation and I paid for my own vasectomy. 

I figured doubling up was better. And I didn't think it was fair for either of us to have only one of us sterilized. It was a big deal to her family due to religious reasons.

Is there a chance a relative might want to participate in some sort of caretaker/adopting? I know some people are hesitant to give up a child for adoption because reasons.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

I agree with making the pros/cons list, and you and your husband have to make sure you're on the same page with this... my biggest concern would be if you disagree about the right thing, because then no matter the outcome, one will end up resenting the other.

Why would your DH have to give up his career?

Don't let anyone here bully you or make you feel bad about this.

*hugs*


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> Oh, so true!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A woman I know had part of her womb removed. She still got pregnant.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

@marasoy

1. What are your husband's thoughts on getting an abortion vs having this baby? 

2. What are your personal thoughts on abortion in general? (I'm not here to argue about this. Your personal opinion on this will affect advice. Don't couch it, don't say something politically correct or vague. Your actual opinion.)


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

My mother gave me royal crap when she found out that I'd opted for a vasectomy. She had deep moral objections to me ending my fertility. She knew that my wife probably would not be able to take another pregnancy. I could not risk my wife's life. The first pregnancy was difficult, with diabetes and the threat of pre-eclampsia. She was in bed for the last few months. Our second was worse, he was placentia previa. We knew when she went into labor that it could be touch and go. She hemorhaged during labour. So, therefore I got fixed. One day for the procedure, one day feeling like I had been kicked in the nads, no biggie. No more pills, rubbers, IUDs no more scares.

I will not say whether you should, or should not. That answer is not here. I am in no way that wise. That answer lies in you. None of what has been written here bears repeating. I tend to think how you would view this child after it is born. Ask yourself if you would be resentful. That answer will guide you.


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## marasoy (May 5, 2017)

Thank you very much everyone. I really appreciate all of the answers.

A couple of things to clear:
- we used a condom, it broke, I took a morning after pill straight. But it obviously it didn't work.

- he'll have to give up his new job cause it doesn't pay enough, not even support one person. He's working part-time, volunteering the other part to get the experience and contacts and he looks after our daughter while I work full time. There's no way on Earth we'll survive on just his pay, or even if I go back to work straight after, my pay won't be enough either. We are struggling as it is. He'll have to get a full time job, which will probably be in the industry he got out of.

- my husband feels even stronger about abortion than me. He wanted a vasectomy for ages, but I was the one on the fence thinking that maybe I do want another one. When the first test came up positive, he's first reaction was "abort, abort, abort".

- I'm the only child. Because of that I always wanted to have a bigger family, but now that I have one of my own, I so understand why I never got siblings. On the other hand because I was the only one, my parents gave me everything they could to make sure I had a great start in life which I'm eternally grateful for.

I had a depression spell a couple of weeks ago again. It was bad. I didn't feel like that for a couple of years. I was surprised really, I even told my husband, he said it's cause I probably don't pay enough attention to myself. I should spend more time looking after myself than everyone else, working and cleaning the house. It kinda went away and I didn't think much of it until now. 

I made a list as many of you suggested. I came up with only 4 pros and 11 cons. But it's not just black and white. One of the pros is that our daughter will have a sibling, but then again she'll be perfectly well and loved without one. I turned out to be ok Me being an only child was a blessing in disguise. 

Some of the cons seems so selfish though: like being pregnant again, oh it just makes me shudder just thinking about it, sleepless nights and dealing with baby/toddler (I know they are all different, but know my luck they won't be...), not being able to travel again, putting my career on hold again for at least 3 years, my husband's career. And let's not forget birth. But that's actually in my pros, cause i know I'm eligible for a selective c-section after the first one. It didn't go well last time around. We are lucky my daughter and I are still here. 

There's one more con I didn't right down, but it's in my head. I don't know if our marriage will survive one more run like we did with the first one. It was hard, so hard on us. I'm surprised we are still together. I think we are good parents

If only it was black and white. My last pro is that it's a baby and we'll love him (I know silly, but I think it's him no matter what.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

@marasoy

So, what are your personal thoughts on abortion? I didn't really see an answer to that.


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## marasoy (May 5, 2017)

Kivlor said:


> @marasoy
> 
> So, what are your personal thoughts on abortion? I didn't really see an answer to that.


I'm very much pro-choice. Everyone is difference in a different situation. You can't tell someone what to do with their lives and bodies. It's a personal choice, not an easy one, but personal. And I try very hard not to judge people without walking a mile in their shoes... 

As for me personally, I never had to face this situation previously. That's why I'm lost. And I do have a little one already, so I do know that unconditional love. And that's hat I'm scared to give up...


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

marasoy said:


> I'm very much pro-choice. Everyone is difference in a different situation. You can't tell someone what to do with their lives and bodies. It's a personal choice, not an easy one, but personal. And I try very hard not to judge people without walking a mile in their shoes...
> 
> As for me personally, I never had to face this situation previously. That's why I'm lost. And I do have a little one already, so I do know that unconditional love. And that's hat I'm scared to give up...


Your H wants you to have an abortion. 
You want to have an abortion.
You see nothing wrong with abortion.

So, if there's nothing wrong with it in your eyes, then what is stopping you?


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## marasoy (May 5, 2017)

Kivlor said:


> Your H wants you to have an abortion.
> You want to have an abortion.
> You see nothing wrong with abortion.
> 
> So, if there's nothing wrong with it in your eyes, then what is stopping you?


The fact that this is probably the only chance for us to have a second one and a chance for our daughter to have a sibling. I won't be putting myself in this situation again. So it's now or never kinda situation.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

marasoy said:


> The fact that this is probably the only chance for us to have a second one and a chance for our daughter to have a sibling. I won't be putting myself in this situation again. So it's now or never kinda situation.


Do you and your husband ever want a second child? Is this a timing only issue for you?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Yeswecan said:


> Is adoption of the child a consideration?


If I may, PLEASE consider this option before termination. If that's what you decide.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

@marasoy The "cons" on your life aren't selfish; your life is your life, and you should be able to live the life that you want. If you want a career, and your husband wants his dream career, and an unplanned pregnancy would get in the way of that, it is not selfish to want a career, or to want to travel, or to want to be financially stable. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to deal with sleepless nights and the terrible twos again. Your life is your life, and you get to make choices about what happens. If this second pregnancy takes away the things that make you and your husband happy--careers, travel, financial security, sleeping through the night--how will that reflect on your treatment of your child? Trust me, if you resent your kid(s) for that, they will know.

And it won't be the end of the world if your daughter doesn't have a sibling. She will be fine. People who were only children wish they had a big family; people who had siblings sometimes wish they were only children. I know that I did, my sister and I were at one another's throats our entire lives, until I moved out (though my sis and I get along well now). Whatever you choose, your daughter will wish it was the other was around.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> If I may, PLEASE consider this option before termination. If that's what you decide.


I have a feeling that she would get a lot of grief from family members, and they would try to pressure her into keeping the child if she and her husband decided to put it up for adoption.

It's ok for a single woman to put a baby up for adoption, but it's much more taboo for a married couple to do so. EVERYONE in their lives will know that she's pregnant, and everyone will have an opinion.

ETA: And one of the OP's major concerns was health reasons (previous difficult pregnancy) and post-partum depression. Both of which she may still have to endure if she carries the baby to term and gives it up for adoption.

And part of me thinks that carrying a baby and then giving it up is even more traumatic for the woman than an abortion might be.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

If you are pro-abortion and you know you cannot support the child, and you do not want to go through with the pregnancy, don't even think twice about it. Remember, you aren't alone. Don't let it weigh on you. Hell, you won't even be able to get healthcare for the kid after the fact.

But coming here and talking about it, makes it seem like you want to be talked out of it. You have to determine what you really want. It's tough, cause guilt can feel like a ton of bricks around your neck. You may consider adoption, but think about the millions and millions of other children that should be adopted and are not. You'd be giving birth just to take their place. Talk about heartbreaking...


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

FeministInPink said:


> I have a feeling that she would get a lot of grief from family members, and they would try to pressure her into keeping the child if she and her husband decided to put it up for adoption.
> 
> It's ok for a single woman to put a baby up for adoption, but it's much more taboo for a married couple to do so. EVERYONE in their lives will know that she's pregnant, and everyone will have an opinion.
> 
> ...


I know. And those are all things to consider too.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Herschel said:


> If you are pro-abortion and you know you cannot support the child, and you do not want to go through with the pregnancy, don't even think twice about it. Remember, you aren't alone. Don't let it weigh on you. Hell, you won't even be able to get healthcare for the kid after the fact.
> 
> But coming here and talking about it, makes it seem like you want to be talked out of it. You have to determine what you really want. It's tough, cause guilt can feel like a ton of bricks around your neck. You may consider adoption, but think about the millions and millions of other children that should be adopted and are not. You'd be giving birth just to take their place. Talk about heartbreaking...


I just want to point out that if OP is considering adoption--and there's no indication she is--that infants are adopted ultra-fast. It's older children that are harder to place. They've been through the formative years and often come from dysfunctional families, and so fixing their malfunctions is difficult to impossible. Those millions and millions weren't going to be adopted anyways. Just a thought.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

you might be more depressed if later in life you decide to change your mind and think of abortion as killing an unborn child.

personally I think you should just buck up and have the baby. yes it will be hard yes you might get depressed again But you might not. 

I read that Roe vers wade late in life she was very depressed about her case being used to legalize abortion. she even tried to have it reversed later in life.

I'm not judging its your decision and as long as your ok with it


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## cc48kel (Apr 5, 2017)

We felt we weren't ready for a second and were really shocked about the pregnancy. We both cried about it because our other son just turned one. We visited clinics because we just didn't want him/her.. We then chose to have him and honestly he is the best kid!!! He's so smart and keeps me laughing.. He does push my buttons but what kid doesn't. I know he will be someone important someday and I couldn't imagine life without him!! : )


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I really hope that you have this baby. No 2 pregnancies are the same and no 2 babies are the same. You may not be sick at all this time, and the baby may be far more calm and laid back than the first. Also at three, presumably four when the baby is born, do you really want a larger age gap than that? The longer you leave it the less likely it is to happen surely. 
Most single children hate being the only one. I had one brother and I have always wished I had more siblings. 
Honestly others manage with far more children and not much money etc. You will manage fine. 

Many who have abortions suffer a lot with guilt and depression afterwards.You cant do this and it not affect you.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

marasoy said:


> I'm very much pro-choice. Everyone is difference in a different situation. You can't tell someone what to do with their lives and bodies. It's a personal choice, not an easy one, but personal. And I try very hard not to judge people without walking a mile in their shoes...
> 
> As for me personally, I never had to face this situation previously. That's why I'm lost. And I do have a little one already, so I do know that unconditional love. And that's hat I'm scared to give up...


My wife had an abortion between our first and last child, we were fine with it then and are still fine with it now. It certainly wasn't that big a deal for either of us, compared to some other things of greater significance.

If faced with the same situation again, both of us would have no problem doing the same again.



Diana7 said:


> Many who have abortions suffer a lot with guilt and depression afterwards.You cant do this and it not affect you.


Just as many who have abortions don't suffer any guilt or depression afterwards at all. There are many people who can do this without it bothering them, just like my wife who has done this without experiencing any emotional or physical problems at all.


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## marasoy (May 5, 2017)

FeministInPink said:


> @marasoy The "cons" on your life aren't selfish; your life is your life, and you should be able to live the life that you want. If you want a career, and your husband wants his dream career, and an unplanned pregnancy would get in the way of that, it is not selfish to want a career, or to want to travel, or to want to be financially stable. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to deal with sleepless nights and the terrible twos again. Your life is your life, and you get to make choices about what happens. If this second pregnancy takes away the things that make you and your husband happy--careers, travel, financial security, sleeping through the night--how will that reflect on your treatment of your child? Trust me, if you resent your kid(s) for that, they will know.
> 
> And it won't be the end of the world if your daughter doesn't have a sibling. She will be fine. People who were only children wish they had a big family; people who had siblings sometimes wish they were only children. I know that I did, my sister and I were at one another's throats our entire lives, until I moved out (though my sis and I get along well now). Whatever you choose, your daughter will wish it was the other was around.


Thank you very much. I do feel very selfish, but I do want to have a life. And I guess wanting it is not so selfish.


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## marasoy (May 5, 2017)

Thank yo very much everyone. I never faced this choice before. And it's hard. I think we would make it work, but at what cost and that's the problem. I'm not willing to pay it.

As for adoption I would not do that. If I were to have a child, I'm not giving him/her away. If anything I would adopt one myself. I always wanted to adopt. I never even wanted to have any of my own, because I think there are so many babies in the old that need home and love, there's no point making more. I was even attending some adoption classes to see if we'd be able to adopt one. The reason we haven't went further with it yet is 1. financial situation and 2. I don't think my husband is ready. 

Ideally, Id love to have a second child, but not the one I have to carry and give birth to. Also preferably after age of 3 as well.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

marasoy said:


> Thank yo very much everyone. I never faced this choice before. And it's hard. I think we would make it work, but at what cost and that's the problem. I'm not willing to pay it.
> 
> As for adoption I would not do that. If I were to have a child, I'm not giving him/her away. If anything I would adopt one myself. I always wanted to adopt. I never even wanted to have any of my own, because I think there are so many babies in the old that need home and love, there's no point making more. I was even attending some adoption classes to see if we'd be able to adopt one. The reason we haven't went further with it yet is 1. financial situation and 2. I don't think my husband is ready.
> 
> Ideally, Id love to have a second child, but not the one I have to carry and give birth to. Also preferably after age of 3 as well.


I have an adopted son. When we went through the adoption, we found out some interesting info.

For every new born available for adoption, there are about 36 married couples waiting to adopt a new born. Some people think of adopted child as being lucky that someone adopted them. In the US, that's not so. A person/couple who can get an infant to adopt is the lucky one.

Most of the children who are available for adoption are older and/or in family groups of 4 or more. Most have been through hell and back and have serious problems. For this reason they bring a lot of problems to the family that adopts them.

When we adopted our son, he was 10 days old. He's 28 now. The wait to adopt a second infant was 5 years or more.

After that I looked into adopting him, I looked into adopting another child but this time I looked at alternatives such as the state foster care system. I was told that the only chance we had with them was to adopt a child who was over 10 years old or a family group of 4 in which 2 or more of the children were 10 or over.

If you cannot afford this second child, you most likely cannot afford to adopt a child.

The average cost of adoption in the US is in the*range of $30,000, but the actual cost depends on so many factors that an average is not all that helpful.

For private domestic infant adoption (birth mother relinquishment) you can adopt through an adoption agency or through an adoption lawyer. Adoption costs vary depending on birth mother expenses, including medical costs for the expectant woman, adoption agency/adoption attorney fees, travel, failed adoption matches, etc. The range for an adoption agency adoption is from $5,000 to $40,000+, with almost 60% falling within $10,000 – $30,000, and the average being around $28,000. Some adoption agencies have a sliding fee scale where adoption costs are based on your income.

International adoptions can be far more expensive.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Moderator Warning...

The OP did not come here to be lectured about getting pregnant (I deleted those posts)

She did not come here to be lectured about the prolife argument.

I'm keeping an eye out on this thread and will be deleting anything posted that violates either of those.

{Speaking as a moderator}


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Thank you, @EleGirl.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## marasoy (May 5, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> I have an adopted son. When we went through the adoption, we found out some interesting info.
> 
> For every new born available for adoption, there are about 36 married couples waiting to adopt a new born. Some people think of adopted child as being lucky that someone adopted them. In the US, that's not so. A person/couple who can get an infant to adopt is the lucky one.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for your posts. we do not live in the states, the cost of adoption here is a bit cheaper, but as you said there are a lot of other couples who will be happy to adopt and it is still costly. That's the main reason why we are not preceding with it at the moment. Also if we were to proceed we'd be looking into international adoption most likely. But at the moment that's not an issue. 

Thanks once again


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Oh, this is a tough one......was once in your shoes and wish now I could do it over again...seriously!!! I have had 3 children and can tell you that after my first I did not think I could go thru another labor but my second child was really easy as far as delivery and she and I have a very close bond. I did terminate a pg many years ago and I have felt bad about it since, and I am in my 50's now. You have to live with that choice. If you really feel you and your husband cannot love another child at least giving this baby life and finding it a home where it can be loved is a viable option. 7 weeks is a bit late in the process for termination.


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## Happykat (Mar 29, 2016)

Hi Marasoy,

I am like you. Currently one month pregnant and like you, I didn't plan this one. I already have two children and I was tired of raising two as a full time mum. SAHM can be boring.
Instead, i planned to build my business. I have done the five, ten and 25 years plan for my business. 
I desired to wear single-lady, anti-breastfeed sexy clothes. 
I dread the 9 months carrying a child in my uterus, the labour day, the post delivery day.
You get the idea. And I understand you.

But, have you watched Passengers movie? The main character Aurora said, sometimes we are too hung up with the current moment that we couldn't enjoy it.

Life isn't fair and it is hard (sometimes). That's a fact. 
Survivors survive no matter the occasion 
And happiness is everywhere IF you decide to find it and embrace it.

Hard to handle your child? Stressful? Watch supernanny UK on YouTube, read on understanding children.

Depression? Read on Hardwiring your brain to be happy book.
Be prepared.
Post partum pains? Google exercises for diastasis direction exercises, squats, and kegels.

Financial problem? There are people who are poorer and yet they are happy. Cut down on luxury. Find cheaper ways.

Be a survivor. And choose to be happy. And choose to love a child. Love is a verb.


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## marasoy (May 5, 2017)

Kivlor said:


> Do you and your husband ever want a second child? Is this a timing only issue for you?


We like the idea of bigger family, but not the logistics of it. I'm not sure if it's the timing. i don't think the time will ever be right... it never is is it? I always wanted more than 1, but I'm really not sure anymore since I've experienced the real life, not a pretty idea in my head formed when I was a kid myself.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

marasoy said:


> Thank yo very much everyone. I never faced this choice before. And it's hard. I think we would make it work, but at what cost and that's the problem. I'm not willing to pay it.
> 
> As for adoption I would not do that. If I were to have a child, I'm not giving him/her away. If anything I would adopt one myself. I always wanted to adopt. I never even wanted to have any of my own, because I think there are so many babies in the old that need home and love, there's no point making more. I was even attending some adoption classes to see if we'd be able to adopt one. The reason we haven't went further with it yet is 1. financial situation and 2. I don't think my husband is ready.
> 
> Ideally, Id love to have a second child, but not the one I have to carry and give birth to. Also preferably after age of 3 as well.


Young healthy children are not easy to find to adopt. Its older ones and ones that have many issues that are more available.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> sorry I didnt see a warning.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...nd-child-but-we-dont-want-3.html#post17846553


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I had one planned child (all I ever wanted). A couple of years later, I had a birth control failure and was shocked -- and very unhappy -- to find I was pregnant again. Before I had even really gotten used to the idea, I had a miscarriage. I was relieved for the most part that I no longer had that unexpected event to deal with but also sad at the same time (it was the sadness that surprised me because I very much didn't want a second child). Decades later, I still remember my due date but I never changed my mind about having more children. 

There are always pros and cons and often no easy answers when dealing with an unexpected pregnancy. I remember wondering how I would ever manage a second child at that point in my life -- it seemed impossible -- but obviously many people do manage well (and some don't). But that's a personal choice and whatever decision you make will be the one you feel is best for you.


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## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

chillymorn69 said:


> you might be more depressed if later in life you decide to change your mind and think of abortion as killing an unborn child.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Statistically speaking, there is no evidence that suggests she will be depressed about an abortion. In fact, not having a child that isn't wanted is likely to be better for her long term emotional health. 


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

BlueWoman said:


> Statistically speaking, there is no evidence that suggests she will be depressed about an abortion. In fact, not having a child that isn't wanted is likely to be better for her long term emotional health.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


if you say so!


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## rockon (May 18, 2016)

chillymorn69 said:


> if you say so!


My thoughts exactly. It has been my experience that the majority of woman suffer varying levels of depression after the procedure. 

It has also been my experience the the pro-choice crowd always downplays this.


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## Itwasjustafantasy (Jan 8, 2016)

I am pro-choice. My mother and I both have a history of depression and post partum depression, neither one of us has ever had an abortion.
I have one child and my husband and I could never handle another one. Parenting has not been easy for us and we simply are not interested at all in having another child. My daughter gets everything she wants and needs and even if I knew that having a sibling would be a wonderful gift to her, my husband's and my own happiness matter too. In fact as an only child she gets the best gift we can give her: happy, not overly stressed out parents who can devote plenty of time to her and to our marriage. 
OP I have had one pregnancy scare before and it was the most devastating thing to face. My mental health matters and I simply could not have another child and be a decent parent. I could not think of a bigger tragedy than bringing an unwanted child to this world. In fact going through a pregnancy with an unwanted child would trigger so much guilt and sadness and resentment in me that I would not even be able to be a good enough mother to the child I already have. 
I think that your husband's support in whatever decision you make in the end is of most importance. You two need to make a decision together and not let anyone else tell you what is right for your family.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

This is the 2nd warning


Moderator Warning...

The OP did not come here to be lectured about getting pregnant (I deleted those posts)

She did not come here to be lectured about the prolife argument.

I'm keeping an eye out on this thread and will be deleting anything posted that violates either of those.

{Speaking as a moderator}


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

marasoy said:


> The fact that this is probably the only chance for us to have a second one and a chance for our daughter to have a sibling. I won't be putting myself in this situation again. So it's now or never kinda situation.


You can always adopt children and skip the pregnancy part.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

turnera said:


> You can always adopt children and skip the pregnancy part.


Not if you don't have 30-50k laying around.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

chillymorn69 said:


> Not if you don't have 30-50k laying around.




You can save up for it just like everything else. She already stated that they weren't ready for a second child right now. 

I had one abortion years ago and have never regretted the choice. It would have been so unfair to bring a child into the messed up situation I was in at that time (young 20s), and I knew I would not be able to carry a child to term and then hand it over to someone else. There would have been too strong of a bond during the pregnancy. 


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## curious234 (Jan 28, 2017)

second time is not as difficult as the first one. My friend had the same issue 10 years ago. Now he is very happy when he look at his son finishing elementary school


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

@marasoy, I can't even imagine being in your position. I do have personal beliefs on the subject, but as EleGirl already addressed the threadjack situation on that particular subject, I won't go into it. Marasoy, I can honestly say that I do not believe I coyld ever choose to abort a baby. Even if it came down to my life or the baby's, I think my husband would have to make that decision for me. 

I have been pregnant 4 times in my life. The first ended in a miscarriage. The second resulted in my now 16 year old son. The last two are my 10 year old daughter and my 8 year old son. The only pregnancy that had no complications was my last one. With the other two children, I had bleeding. All three are healthy... and often aggravate me. But I wouldn't change them for anything. 
The only one who wasn't even remotely planned was the youngest. We found out we were expecting him when our daughter turned one. I was still nursing her, and continued until I was about 5 month pregnant (give or take a month). I can't imagine my life without any of them.

Marasoy, the decision, ultimately, is yours... yours and your husband's. It is apparent you are struggling with this decision, otherwise you wouldn't have posted about it. Only you know if you are the kind of person who would regret it later or not. Some do, some don't. My mother-in-law regretted the one she had before adopting my sister-in-law. She regretted it all her life. But, as @Personal stated, he and his wife have never regretted their decision. Some do, some don't. If you believe you would regret it, don't do it. If you don't think you would regret it, then do it. 

I wish you the best, and wish I could help you. Good luck, no matter what you choose.

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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

curious234 said:


> second time is not as difficult as the first one. My friend had the same issue 10 years ago. Now he is very happy when he look at his son finishing elementary school


That's quite the statement. Where are your facts to base this on? Every female is different and has her own physical, mental, and inherited issues to deal with and you have no idea what would happen to her.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

@marasoy

Are you still reading here?

How are you doing?


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

marasoy said:


> We like the idea of bigger family, but not the logistics of it. I'm not sure if it's the timing. i don't think the time will ever be right... it never is is it? I always wanted more than 1, but I'm really not sure anymore since I've experienced the real life, not a pretty idea in my head formed when I was a kid myself.


How old are the 2 of you, and how long have you been married? 

1. RE Bigger Families: I think it is very wise to have at least 2 children, because, although we don't like to think of it, sometimes tragic things happen. If you don't think you'll be having another, then I would keep this one, if you want more children later. Don't abort or adopt out in that case, because again, tragic things happen, and you don't know if you'll be able to have children later.

2. RE Timing: There isn't really a such thing as right timing. I mean, if you're financially insolvent and on the verge of bankruptcy, kids are a bad idea. But that aside, if you are waiting for the finances to "be right" you might as well be waiting for the stars to align. You can earn more money later in life, and in fact, the 50's and 60's are the highest earning years for the vast majority of people.

Kids are a ton of work. Except for the very unfortunate cases of medical issues, they aren't very expensive. The real cost is time and energy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you do decide to keep the baby, I will suggest that you arm yourself with as much help and support as possible. Inform both your families what happened with the first one and ask them to keep an eye out for danger signs. Ask them to help out by being available if you ever need a break. Do the same with your good friends and your church, if you have one. And definitely set up access to your doctors and their aides. Create a big, strong network of support and help who will be aware and keep an eye out for you, and you should be ok.


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## curious234 (Jan 28, 2017)

turnera said:


> That's quite the statement. Where are your facts to base this on? Every female is different and has her own physical, mental, and inherited issues to deal with and you have no idea what would happen to her.


One need common sense in life unless of course one want to push his/her opinion no matter what


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## marasoy (May 5, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> @marasoy
> 
> Are you still reading here?
> 
> How are you doing?


Yes, I am. Thank you. I'm ok. we went over it the whole weekend and I'm going to be contacting a doctor today. I don't think we'll be going through with the second child. But there's a part of me still feel very sad and unsure. But in some moments it's so clear that it's the best way.

And I'm looking at my gorgeous daughter and I want to be the best mom for her I can be. And I'm so so far from perfect. I can't imagine I'd get any better being pregnant and then having a baby to pay all of the attention to. 

Oh this sucks so bad. But i think this is for the best.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

marasoy said:


> Yes, I am. Thank you. I'm ok. we went over it the whole weekend and I'm going to be contacting a doctor today. I don't think we'll be going through with the second child. *But there's a part of me still feel very sad and unsure. But in some moments it's so clear that it's the best way.*
> 
> And I'm looking at my gorgeous daughter and I want to be the best mom for her I can be. And I'm so so far from perfect. I can't imagine I'd get any better being pregnant and then having a baby to pay all of the attention to.
> 
> Oh this sucks so bad. But i think this is for the best.


Marasoy, I want to point out the bolded. This is all up to you and your H, but if you feel that way, I wouldn't go through with it. If you think that you'll feel sad / guilty / badly over this, I would absolutely not do this. 

This is the kind of decision I would only recommend to someone who won't feel anything over it. Or would only feel relief. 

Just my thoughts from knowing a couple of girls who did feel bad about it. (And one who didn't)


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

As the mother of a 26 year old, I know several young women who have had abortions; one more than one. Maybe later in life, they will regret the decision. But each of them has said, at least, that they are at peace with their decision. And all are busy concentrating on their husband, their school, their other child/ren. I'm just saying there are many reasons to make such a decision, and it seems to be whether you see it as 'murder' or you see it as a decision made in your life. If you're so dead set that ANY abortion is abhorrent or murder, obviously don't do it, because it will catch up to you. But if that isn't your situation, it is not a guarantee that you'll spend the rest of your life in self hatred, self doubt or otherwise.

Another point is that I have only one child. We chose when to have her, 10 years after we married, and we were ready at that point to devote our lives to her; and we did. And she's the most amazing, wonderful, successful person you'd ever see. And she LOVES that she is an only child. She's had an amazing life. We were 'those parents' who weren't so overwrought with taking care of a larger family that we were able to be the parents who went on all the field trips, held meetings at our house, threw parties for the whole class, supported school events. She KNOWS she is loved and wanted; she knows she has the ability to go out and do whatever she wants; she's just now graduating with her Masters, and will go on to a PhD after her wedding next year and having her own kid or two in the next few years. 

I'm just saying that having only one child is NOT an abomination nor a death sentence to a child, nor is it a guarantee that you're raising a spoiled brat. DD26 chose to use her allowance money on workbooks to learn more about English and science and psychology. In high school she spent her money on used college psychology textbooks. She bought her own prom dress from a resale shop, 3 years ahead of time. I raised her with logic - meaning I never (ok, rarely) gave in to her selfish desires and made her argue for them to convince me. I made her earn her own money to pay for this stuff. And I always always showed her that I would never judge her but would always support her - WHEN she chose smart, right, beneficial decisions. She was a virgin at 21 because no guy had presented himself yet that was 'good enough' to give it up for. And when she finally did start dating someone in earnest, he was a real keeper. All because she was our only child, whom we raised to have high expectations, take no prisoners, and always do the right thing. 

Being an only child is not a death sentence.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

turnera said:


> As the mother of a 26 year old, I know several young women who have had abortions; one more than one. Maybe later in life, they will regret the decision. But each of them has said, at least, that they are at peace with their decision. And all are busy concentrating on their husband, their school, their other child/ren. I'm just saying there are many reasons to make such a decision, and it seems to be whether you see it as 'murder' or you see it as a decision made in your life. If you're so dead set that ANY abortion is abhorrent or murder, obviously don't do it, because it will catch up to you. But if that isn't your situation, it is not a guarantee that you'll spend the rest of your life in self hatred, self doubt or otherwise.
> 
> Another point is that I have only one child. We chose when to have her, 10 years after we married, and we were ready at that point to devote our lives to her; and we did. And she's the most amazing, wonderful, successful person you'd ever see. And she LOVES that she is an only child. She's had an amazing life. We were 'those parents' who weren't so overwrought with taking care of a larger family that we were able to be the parents who went on all the field trips, held meetings at our house, threw parties for the whole class, supported school events. She KNOWS she is loved and wanted; she knows she has the ability to go out and do whatever she wants; *she's just now graduating with her Masters, and will go on to a PhD *after her wedding next year and having her own kid or two in the next few years.
> 
> ...


Quick & short thread jack here. Congrats to your daughter for her Master's. Sounds like you have quite a daughter!

My son is graduating with his MS next weeks as well.


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## marasoy (May 5, 2017)

turnera said:


> As the mother of a 26 year old, I know several young women who have had abortions; one more than one. Maybe later in life, they will regret the decision. But each of them has said, at least, that they are at peace with their decision. And all are busy concentrating on their husband, their school, their other child/ren. I'm just saying there are many reasons to make such a decision, and it seems to be whether you see it as 'murder' or you see it as a decision made in your life. If you're so dead set that ANY abortion is abhorrent or murder, obviously don't do it, because it will catch up to you. But if that isn't your situation, it is not a guarantee that you'll spend the rest of your life in self hatred, self doubt or otherwise.
> 
> 
> Being an only child is not a death sentence.


Thank you you sound like my parents They gave me everything they could, and I'm so grateful I even know that mom had an abortion when I was little for the same reasons I'm doing it now. I just can't tell her about mine cause she became hard-core religious and I won't hear the end of it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

marasoy 

In the end, no here really knows exactly what you went through in your first pregnancy. You are the only person in this world who knows. For that reason, I have to believe what you tell us.

I had the pregnancy from hell and came very close to dying from it. My twins however did not survive it. After that pregnancy. Through most of the pregnancy I tried to get my doc to pay attention to the problems I was having. He ignored it all. What I learned is that I was the only one who knew what I was going through and apparently the only one who really cared what I was going through. So in the end, my pregnancy is my responsibility…. My body. And I have the right to self-defense.
My husband wanted to try immediately for another baby. I told him that I would only agree to another pregnancy if he agreed that I (me and me alone) had the right to decide if the pregnancy was getting to be too much for me to handle and thus I had the right to decide to abort. Nature took care of this because after the hell of that pregnancy, I could no longer get pregnant.

Sure, each pregnancy is different. And each woman is different too. Often, when a woman has a very bad pregnancy, a large part of the cause is her own physiology. Her physiology is not going to change. That’s who she is.

Some of the women here are talking about how they had a bad pregnancy and then went on to have good pregnancies. So how do we measure “bad”? One person’s “bad” might be a walk in the park as compared to someone else’s “bad”.

You mention PPD. There are degrees of PPD. Let’s not forget that there are women who go completely psychotic with PPD. There have been cases in which women with PPD have become completely psychotic. Some have killed their children believing that they were saving them, or voices in their heads told them to, too. I’m not saying that you went psychotic. I have no idea. But from your posts, it sounds like your PPD was not a mild case.

You talk about the stability of the home life for your child. It sounds like you and you husband struggle with maintaining and even keel in your life. It is good that you have accomplished this. But you say that you might not be able to do that with another bad pregnancy, another child and financial problems. Again, you are the only one here who knows what you and your husband are dealing with. 

I feel for you and your family. My gut tells me that you are going to have this baby. You are struggling with a decision here. If you do have this child, please build a support system around yourself and your family. It will help all get through this and adjust to your growing family.

Most people hate the idea of abortion. But most understand that sometimes there are reasons for it’s the best course to take. Life is not always easy. That’s for sure.


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## Youngwife1000 (Mar 26, 2017)

marasoy said:


> The fact that this is probably the only chance for us to have a second one and a chance for our daughter to have a sibling. I won't be putting myself in this situation again. So it's now or never kinda situation.




Hello Marasoy, you are a strong lady to post such a difficult time publicly, it opens up for a lot of people opinion bashing. As others have said ultimately this is your choice. I'm a post abortion counsellor for women and men that have had deep regret and trouble over coming their decision. Firstly you are right, simply writing a pro and cons list isn't a simply answer and nearly everyone in my clinic started with one. I'm not saying writing things down is bad it's good to visualise. Write down also your heart, right down the heart thoughts not just the practical reasoning, it's so much deeper than that. 
Don't look for other to sooth your soul on the issue. Everyone is different but you have to live with yourself forever, on both decisions, to abort or not too. With out exterior judgement we also live with our own, it's human nature.
It's such a huge issue and not to be rushed. It's an overwhelming decision I hear from you, which shows me that in your moral mind bank you are not settled on how you feel outside of the immediate stress.
Like others have said not all pregnancies are the same, I have 6 children not one was. I had anxiety about a few different things probably in each. I also didn't want my last one and cried for 10 weeks until I saw her on the scan. Then my love just grew, not that I didn't still have anxious thoughts, but my baby love outweighed those plus I spoke often to people that encouraged.
If you are currently in a place of depression it's easy to transfer all doubt, worry,stress onto each factor of life's ways, it doesn't mean this season is forever.
Be sure you make a sound choice, maybe ask for a scan and see how you feel after..... I can her women already screaming that's just going to make her feel bad........ this is nonsense, you need to be fully aware and in control of your decision with full knowledge and understanding of what you are about to do. I couldn't count the number of ladies that weep daily on my couch, saying I just didn't realise, I can't get it back.
This is more than a practical issue, it's about life after also.
Don't feel judged, don't feel rushed, don't let anyone push a decision on you. Whatever you do just make sure you do it with full knowledge and understanding.
At the moment you are in shock, this is never a good place to make such a huge choice.
My thoughts are with you, please feel free to pm if you have any further questions.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

marasoy said:


> Yes, I am. Thank you. I'm ok. we went over it the whole weekend and I'm going to be contacting a doctor today. I don't think we'll be going through with the second child. But there's a part of me still feel very sad and unsure. But in some moments it's so clear that it's the best way.
> 
> And I'm looking at my gorgeous daughter and I want to be the best mom for her I can be. And I'm so so far from perfect. I can't imagine I'd get any better being pregnant and then having a baby to pay all of the attention to.
> 
> Oh this sucks so bad. But i think this is for the best.


I know it's a tough decision to make but obviously you have to do what you feel is the best choice for you.


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## Youngwife1000 (Mar 26, 2017)

rockon said:


> My thoughts exactly. It has been my experience that the majority of woman suffer varying levels of depression after the procedure.
> 
> 
> 
> It has also been my experience the the pro-choice crowd always downplays this.




I am a counsellor, yes it can effect the coming to terms with the decision after for some, not everyone but I find my Gp referring higher in already clinically depressed sufferers


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

I am pro-choice. It's a profoundly personal decision...best wishes as you move forward.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

I am pro-choice as well and your decision is your decision. We support you in that. Slight T/J here, since several people are talking about their kids. My daughter just wrote her final written examination for certification as an Obstetrician and Gynecologist. AND offered a partnership in a practice in a neighbouring city. Just the oral exam left for next week. You go girl.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Life...

Maybe it's just me and the people I know, but timing on stuff is usually OFF! Love, babies, jobs, illnesses, cars breaking down, bills, mother in law stopping by...ugh, whatever it is, it usually seems like it can't have been at much worse of a time.

Like you yourself said though, is there ever a good time? A wise question. I'm guessing it wasn't the greatest timing when you got pregnant with your daughter. I certinaly know it was a terrible time for us. We couldn't rub two nickels together and we were trying so hard to just qualify for a first time home buyer loan since it was more affordable then rents at the time. A third little person was going to throw off those magical loan ladies numbers. We were still so young. In fact we had a lot of the similarities you list, including a very difficult pregnancy. This is your story, not mine though sweetheart. I'm just gonna throw out a few more morsels for thought. 

The people I know (all I can speak to is who I know) that had abortions and had no regrets, said they never had mixed emotions. They didn't view it as a life, and therefore it certainly wasn't going to mess up theirs.

The people I know who had regrets, were on the fence about it. Weighing out the pros and cons. Their own feelings, belief systems etc. I won't go on and on about the suffering they have described to me in living with it afterwards, but I am always left feeling there is nothing I can say to comfort them, that how inconsolable they are when they discuss it, no matter what I say to try to help them feel better. So, I went back and forth on responding to your post because this is obviously a very personal decision. But what prompted me to reply, is that you sound fairly unsure. I can understand why! It's such a huge decision. 

As a fellow only child, I even empathize with your take on that part. Being very lonesome while I grew up, I swore I wouldn't have only one kid. We did have two, four years apart. Second pregnancy was drastically easier. Second birth didn't even seem like the same process it was so much better! Going from no kids to a kid was a huge adjustment, whereas going from one to two, was not that big of a deal for us. Plus WE knew what we were doing the second time around, so all that overwhelming stuff that I had as a new parent was all gone, it's all second (kid) nature. Lastly, our four year old felt like she was just given a live baby doll. She was Johnny on the spot to do everything I could ask of her, and quite a few things I didn't lol. She was awesome. They are amazingly close to this day. The biggest loves in each other's lives thusfar. To watch how much they love each other warmed this only child heart...every day of their lives, and still does.

I guess I'm rambling on to say more money can always be made, and it will. Better positions and better jobs are usually always out there, and will be. Most people who have a family before they are financially set (AKA young, AKA most of us lol) have to make sacrifices, and also put off some things until later in life. You and your husband sound like very intelligent, career driven people, that are going to without a doubt be successful in your lives! So this condom whoops is giving you a chance to have the second child, that it seems a big part of you desires. Your daughters little brother (as you imagine him) is protected in your womb, while you and your husband make this decision. 

So we get back to this - Is it the perfect time? No, but maybe, just maybe is it _the_ time? I hope you find the clarity for which you search. I wish your family happiness and peace after you get through this stressful time. Feel free to stay with us, we would value your input here on TAM.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Spicy, remember that this isn't all about it being a bad time. Or else I would be agreeing with you.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Do what you and your husband feel is right for you. I was in a very similar situation. It's strange how my wife and I just talked about this about two days ago. I found out she called her mom crying because she didn't want to have our last child and I never knew about the conversation. Of course we discussed abortion, adoption and everything because I didn't want another child either. She never had natural birth and was always induced. One child had to be tested for down syndrome in the womb. Like you, we were the failed birth control people. Just make sure it is what you both want and primarily you.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

3rd moderator warning:

OP did not ask to be lectured on morality or have bible verses quoted to her.

Some people seem to have a hard time understanding this.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

turnera said:


> Spicy, remember that this isn't all about it being a bad time. Or else I would be agreeing with you.


Of course...I really hope OP has gathered enough help to make her choice, she got a lot of really good responses. Such a wonderful group of people with such varied life experiences and opinions. I'm glad she came here.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Spicy said:


> Of course...I really hope OP has gathered enough help to make her choice, she got a lot of really good responses. Such a wonderful group of people with such varied life experiences and opinions. I'm glad she came here.




Well...after housekeeping 

The mods are doing an amazing job!



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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Well...after housekeeping
> 
> The mods are doing an amazing job!
> 
> ...


They must be, I missed all the excitement. It has been "cleaned up" every time I have been in here! Kudos!


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