# Dealing with Rejection...



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

So... While my wife and I are waiting to go to counseling...

How do I deal with the current rejection of sex. Let's just say I'm an HD and she's an LD. I'd like it daily, she'd like it never. At two weeks, she stars to feel bad, and she doesn't notice it until it's a thing. Then, it just bothers her because it's a thing. She never wants it. 

At about 4 days, I start to get into a funk. It's not so much after 4 days as it is after thinking I'm getting it, but not having it happen. 

Typically, I try and lay the groundwork during the day. Sweet nothings and such. My wife thinks I'm being pushy. But, day after day of her asking for rain-checks or saying I'm too tired tonight really starts to eat away at me. 

I need a way to deal with the disappointment. I always think she's giving me signals. Sometimes she is, but changes her mind or gets tired quick. I'm basically waiting for her to finish up in the kitchen. Yes, I have offered to help in the kitchen. She says it's her time. 

Should I feel bad for asking? Also, if she breaks a raincheck, do I get another raincheck? Even at it's decreased value?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Read the posts of @badsanta and @UMP. They have worked hard to turn their marriages around through taking responsibility for their feelings rather than asking their wives to take responsibility for them. Empowering approach.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I think for some people.. it would be a *deal breaker*.. I can talk & listen to a low driver.. but I wouldn't be able to accept them as a marriage partner.. 

Just keeping it honest... I would have a horrible time NOT growing resentment & wishing I was with another who had an adequate happening drive for intimacy.. Physically and emotionally..

I'd consider it a grave incompatibility.. one that causes tremendous suffering & unhappiness... 

I realize this post is not helping at all- if you are bound to stay married.. but years living like this.. God help you...

I assume you have tried to be a GIVER in what she desires ?? We could do whole treads to help warm the woman up.. but if she's just grinning & bearing it .. passionless...not into it.. I don't know.. this would crush the spirit.... you need a willingness to meet you half way.. or what is there to work with..



> *lessthennone said* : *Should I feel bad for asking?* Also, if she breaks a raincheck, do I get another raincheck? Even at it's decreased value?


I just don't think someone should feel bad for being married & expecting at the very least 2- 4 romps a week, with a partner who enjoys being there.. this is the one soul love language (physical touch) we can't get outside of a marriage -without breaking our vows.. it's just THAT important...

This is my contribution to dealing with a disparity in drives.. but again.. sometimes it's just TOO MUCH.. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...allowing-our-partner-turn-us-love-making.html


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

@lessthennone sit down and have a talk with your wife. Normally couple need to explore "why they want to have sex" but it may be useful for you to determine "why she does not want sex." You may find that the reason actually does NOT impede your ability to have and enjoy sex with her once you become aware and respectful of it. Here are some examples:

• She "worries" that she may not enjoy it and does not want to hurt your feelings when she does not actually enjoy it. 
• She "worries" that she may not be able to please you.
• She "worries" that a previous fight over what she is and is not willing to do sexually may resurface. 

STEP ONE
Demonstrate to your wife a loving way for her to reject you sexually when she is genuinely NOT in the mood. This may include her giving you a soothing back rub or perhaps just gently caressing you in a sexual way with just her hands while you hold each other. 

STEP TWO
Explain to her how your arousal works, what you like, what gets you going, and what cools you down. If she feels more in control of your arousal and understands how it is attributed to her actions, she will be less afraid of doing something that you may find unenjoyable. Most importantly she may need to learn how to cool you down for a moment until she has a chance to warm up. 

STEP THREE
Don't expect her to enjoy herself or try to stimulate her, simply allow her to enjoy pleasuring you. Then IF she begins to respond sexually, that is when you refocus your efforts on her. It is much better for a women to be touched sexually because she wants it, as opposed to touching her in efforts to make her want it. All that is required to do this is patience, confidence that it will eventually begin to happen, and respect for her when it does not. If she does not respond sexually it is important to share how much you enjoyed her pleasuring you so that she does not feel any anxiety that she has to enjoy herself. Sometimes women want nothing more than to make her husband happy. Nothing more and nothing less. 

STEP FOUR
Once she becomes sexually receptive and aroused, don't start asking a bunch of questions. Just be confident and use your common sense! If she does not want to try something you are about to do, she will let you know. Otherwise she will generally appreciate spontaneous scenarios of not knowing what you plan to do once she trusts you and is open to enjoying the moment. If you are confident and clever enough this is when you reach for something you hid underneath the pillows earlier in the day to surprise her, like coconut oil or a discrete novelty. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

peacem said:


> I think what I have learned is that there is a fine line between 'asking' and 'pressurizing'. What often happens is that the LD partner feels very guilty for not being sexual enough and defensively interprets a polite sexual inquiry into being 'pressurized'. So both partners end up having a sense of resentment and confusion. Therefore a little flirtation whilst preparing a meal for example, can be taken in two ways; he wants to have sex tonight but she is tired and not in the mood (quick defensive rejection), or.. she is enjoying the flirtation now but by tonight may have lost the mood (mixed messages and frustration).
> 
> If you could have a compassionate and non judgmental conversation explaining how this makes you feel you may be able to change how you communicate with each other. And your wife may be able to explain to you how she feels when you ask for sex (guilty? inadequate?) which may help you understand her reactions and take it less personally.
> 
> For me and my husband, after 20 years of terrible communication with each other we finally decided not to bother with subtle flirtations and non-verbal cues. We just say 'Lets have sex in the morning' 'Lets have sex tonight' 'Its been awhile since a BJ' or 'I'm tired at the moment I needed a few days off..'. We have been talking very bluntly (but kindly) for over a year now and it really works for us, but we had to have the compassionate conversation first where we agree to be honest about our feelings without getting angry or frustrated with one another. Therefore we can have an honest conversation about sex without judgement or fear of hurting each others feelings. Hope that makes sense.


I've tried having the chat with her... How it makes me feel. Rejected. She has back issues, as do I. As well, her mother has health issues. So basically, I'm the a$$hole who's pushing his stressed out wife to have sex with him. So I guess that's her excuse. Lets say it's completely justified. She has her excuse and she thinks it's justified. I'm the one who's still at her mercy. 

I have tried the direct approach... "Tonight, I'm going to..." She either laughs it off as a joke or says "maybe". 

I've also suggested that some alternatives to sex would be satisfactory, but she also jokes them off. Even if I reiterate my seriousness. Why would you want a ____ when we could just have sex? Well, if I was having sex, I wouldn't be asking for a ___. But, honestly, a mix of both would be good. 

I guess what I'm saying is my blunt talk goes nowhere. She pretends to not understand. 

I spent a week asking for a handy. I wasn't really desperate for a handy, but I wanted to see that she was willing. Well, despite my hints and then just outright asking, I never got it. She did get hers, though.


----------



## NorCalMan (Dec 14, 2011)

Well you are not alone being rejected. I admire your effort to try different approaches. I can relate to that but ... once you have run out of alternative approaches and the outcome is always the same (rejection) - well ... I just gave up.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

badsanta said:


> @lessthennone sit down and have a talk with your wife. Normally couple need to explore "why they want to have sex" but it may be useful for you to determine "why she does not want sex." You may find that the reason actually does NOT impede your ability to have and enjoy sex with her once you become aware and respectful of it. Here are some examples:
> 
> • She "worries" that she may not enjoy it and does not want to hurt your feelings when she does not actually enjoy it.
> • She "worries" that she may not be able to please you.
> ...




Her response to your first point would be that she's stressed about her mom, her back hurts, the kids are driving her crazy, the house is a mess and she's too tired. Basically, she has that excuse any time it comes up and she makes me feel bad for asking. 

I know a few things I can do to turn her on, but she has to let them happen. If she says, "how about a raincheck", am I supposed to say no?


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Here's what I think is really bothering me. Exploring my sexuality and trying new things with my wife would be a dream come true. She doesn't share that dream. Sexually(and non), I would do anything for her. I don't get the feeling that she would do the same. That's what really hurts. 

I loved the feeling when I was pleasing her and she was enjoying it. It was all about me pleasing her. I'd like to try it the other way around. Actually, I'm depressed that it doesn't work the other way around. That she would enjoy selflessly pleasing me. 

Up until now, I believed what she said about there being time for it later. Now, I'm getting older and realizing life is what I make of it. Waiting for something that won't come is useless. 

Every day, I dream that she'll pull me aside and do something selfless for me. Just to surprise me. She knows it's important to me. Well, I've been waiting for 10 years. 

There is one person on Earth who society deems it appropriate for me to experiment sexually with. And she has no interest.


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

lessthennone said:


> Her response to your first point would be that she's stressed about her mom, her back hurts, the kids are driving her crazy, the house is a mess and she's too tired. Basically, she has that excuse any time it comes up and she makes me feel bad for asking.
> 
> I know a few things I can do to turn her on, but she has to let them happen. If she says, "how about a raincheck", am I supposed to say no?


Be honest. Say no thank you! Experience has taught me your rainchecks are worthless. Its clear you are saying no again, so I'll take care of myself then. 

Then roll over and do just that. Dont get mad, don't act pouty, just be matter of fact. 
Dont initiate anymore. Simply ask if she is interested. Either she is or she isnt, so if she starts with excuses, politely say, yes or no is all i need to hear. If answer is no - do above, if answe is yes, you know what to do.

Many LD separate sex from love, so do the same. Show affection and love in other ways. Flirt in nonsexual ways. Dont show your dissapointnent when she says no - respond causally, like "your loss"
or "too bad, i had some new tricks uo my sleeve", etc. Then take care of yourself. 

Will this change her, maybe not. But, what you are doing now isnt working. So change your own attitude and behavior and try acting the opposite way. Stop being needy and dependant on her. You have nothing to lose. See what happens.

Hopefully counseling will help.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
There may be no solution. HDs and LDs are just wired so differently. It is perfectly natural for you to get frustrated with your sex life, and natural for he to feel pressured. 

What to you seems so easy - why won't she just do nice things for you in bed? To her it is a huge thing you are asking, wanting sex when she doesn't feel like it.


----------



## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

I feel your pain. At one stage, I was listing the number (and variety) of excuses I got for 'no sex'. It kept growing in depth and ingenuity.

Many on this group will tell you that if you're nicer, smarter, into reading the right guides, better at communicating, treat her better, &c, &c, then you're going to get sex a little more often...

Sorry, it doesn't work.

When there is a mismatch in desires (and this happens in MOST couples over time, except when there are no kids, both have a very similar value system, one partner decides to play second-fiddle, etc) then it can be very, very sad.

Not just this, the LD partner will usually find justifications for not wanting sex. I found my partner quoting a common (lady) friend of ours that her husband (the lady friend's) wanted "sex all the time". There were times when my partner would argue that we were "too old" (in our late 40s) to want to have sex "like teenagers". And she genuinely believed these things.

The way out, according to the dominant view on this group (and most others) is to move on. To divorce. To find someone new. To begin again. To even pay up for someone else's fault!

This is not as easy as it sounds. Other things apart, it's sad to have to leave someone whom you've had so many memories with over so many years, just because of some sexual mismatch. Which should have been a small thing, but becomes huge when one keeps getting rejected all the time.

With me, the only things that seem to work is:

* A blunt talk, expressing that I'm human, that I have a need for sex, that she's the only one whom I can (legitimately) expect it from, and that we need to find a mid-way point between her no-sex and my ideal of sex 2.5 times a week. Getting it twice a week, or even thrice in two weeks is an acceptable compromise for me, and take off some of the steams and pressures that would show up otherwise in all spheres of my life.

* After waiting for a week or so, just wait till the opportunity arises, and catch her when she's not rushed, the kids are not around, and she has a moment to spare, and express that it's about time we did it. She would mostly agree.... with some exceptions... out of just realising that I've waited long enough. I know that some on this group would see this as a male-chauvinist way of initiating love-making, but I've also repeatedly expressed to her that we're not the only the only couple in the world facing this issue, many guys specially in long-term relationships complain of it (and increasingly women too, who find themselves desperate from sexual neglect and denial), and that it is a seriously threatening problem that needs to be addressed. I've also expressed to her how my lack of sexual contact would make me fantasize about other women, something which I can't really help... and if she cares for the children, she should also be sparing some thought for their father.

* Another way is to do a 180-degree about turn, show no interest, and also go on a kind of non-cooperation pact. So, if she'd remind me about something she finds crucial (like paying up for the monthly expenses), I might repeat some lame excuse which she made the last while rejecting. For instance: You ask for it all the time. Or, I don't feel like it right now. Cruel? Maybe so, but arguably just as cruel as being deprived of a basic human need by the only person in the world who can give it to you, i.e. sex.

* Over time, she has also been able to realise that too long stints of going without sex can make partner (me) stressful, angry, irritated and non-cooperative. Her family was down for the holidays, and while they were having a ball, I kept getting cheesed off. At 6 am one morning, while I was still behind the computer (working, not watching porn!) she came behind me, started off with a massage (I was almost angry enough to refuse, but am not proud) and gave me the best sex in a long, long time. For some time, I could lay back and just enjoy it... something that hasn't happened for years together.

I need men need to be men, and also claim what is theirs. Regardless of what those who see things from a women libbers' perspective say....


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

At some point you need to be honest with yourself. 

If you two can't come to an agreement you will have to decide whether you can live with this long term.

if you can't sit her down and tell her where you are. She may need a 2x4 to get your point across. You do not have a marriage at this point. Sex is an important part.

If it's non negotiable file and start looking for her replacement.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

mary35 said:


> Be honest. Say no thank you! Experience has taught me your rainchecks are worthless. Its clear you are saying no again, so I'll take care of myself then.
> 
> Then roll over and do just that. Dont get mad, don't act pouty, just be matter of fact.
> Dont initiate anymore. Simply ask if she is interested. Either she is or she isnt, so if she starts with excuses, politely say, yes or no is all i need to hear. If answer is no - do above, if answe is yes, you know what to do.
> ...



There are a few times over the last few years where I was able to completely avoid asking her for sex. After a few weeks, it really eats away at me. I never really saw how that lets me more sex, except that it makes her feel bad. At that point, it's only charity sex. 

And I have trouble keeping myself from pouting.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Whenever I try and have a heart to heart with her, she gets really defensive. She thinks I'm just criticizing her. That's where I am now. 

She thinks it's normal because we have young kids. I think normal is what you make of it. 

I could say that I'm sexually unfulfilled because we have kids, but the kids aren't the reason I'm sexually unfulfilled. 

She will point to an article or something about how average couples have sex twice a week, point out that one week we had sex twice, then think it's all justified. I just point out that it's not fulfilling. 

She thinks I'm attacking her. Then, I'm supposed to somehow get more sex? Man, I'm frustrated.

EDIT: One recurring excuse is the kids. She thinks that because we have kids, that becomes a catch all excuse. Then she says it's normal for people with kids. I think the reason you see so many articles on sex after having kids is because it's important. Not to justify that not having sex is normal.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

lessthennone said:


> There are a few times over the last few years where I was able to completely avoid asking her for sex. After a few weeks, it really eats away at me. I never really saw how that lets me more sex, except that it makes her feel bad. At that point, it's only charity sex.
> 
> And I have trouble keeping myself from pouting.


I think the single most difficult aspect of turning around ones married sex life is dealing with rejection. It just pisses EVERYONE off. It pisses off the one asking and it pisses off the one being asked. As I hear it from my wife "it puts pressure on her."

There are only a couple things I have done that work for me in dealing with rejection from my wife.

1. Make the time you do have sex, GREAT. In other words, maximize the time you have when she let's you in. Make it "unforgettable" for her. In the following days you can look back on that experience and say to yourself "well, she obviously enjoyed it 4 days ago."

2. Find something to do. Get a hobby, go shopping, anything but pout. When I get rejected, I literally get up and just do something. If it's late, I won't leave the house, I will go and work on something. If it's early, I typically leave the house and find something to do. The most important aspect of this is NEVER pout. NEVER, EVER, NEVER pout. Your wife can read you like an open book. You must learn to deflect rejection and not let it effect you negatively. Children pout not grown up men.

The other thing I have noticed is that when you are TRUELY able to accept rejection WITHOUT it bothering you, this is when your wife will become interested in sex again......maybe and hopefully.

Typically men (including myself) will say "no, I am not bothered" or "I'm OK with not having sex tonight" and the wife can see right through it. When she KNOWS you can take it or leave it, that is the moment you will gain the upper hand.

You may say that is impossible, but it's not. It took me 2-3 years to finally be unmoved by rejection. Now my wife initiates more than I do. THAT is where you want to be.

The other thing is to work on yourself. AHYTHING that makes you more attractive and desirable to the opposite sex. When you get rejected you can go back in your mind and say, "well, my wife may not want me, but I know some women at the gym who seem to want me." That will keep you going and through osmosis your wife will read your mind and know that if she won't sleep with you, there are many, many women who would and could.

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with infidelity. It has EVERYTHING to do with self confidence. When I go out to a party with my wife, I always try to look my best and be confident and friendly with everyone. The more women talk or look at me, the more my wife wants to bang me when I get home. Why? I don't know, but I do know that when she can show me off and she can tell others want me, it simply makes her want me more.
It's real.

The day after Christmas my wifes side of the family had their Christmas party. I used to hate those parties. However, this time I showed up looking great, talked to everyone in the room and was helpful, happy and supportive. My wife labored all day cooking and cleaning to get ready for the party, then went to the party and cleaned up afterwards. Guess what she wanted to do when she got home? She's almost 50 and is going through menopause.

Don't stop asking, just don't feel bad when she says "no." If you are comfortable with twice a week and she wants once a month, start off asking her once every two weeks and then up the ante to once a week. What you don't want to do is start off by asking for sex every day. It just won't happen and you'll disappoint yourself and your wife.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

As difficult as it is to bring this stuff up to her, she really makes me feel bad for bringing it up. I even tell her that I feel uncomfortable... like I'm acting entitled asking for sex or something else. She takes it as me criticizing her and not loving her for who she is. She's really good at shutting me down. I think it's possible she has built up embarrassment over rejecting me. I think. Maybe I hear it in her voice when I get a raincheck. 

I read MMSLP. I started working out and doing all of the stuff in the book. I realized something. I don't want to make myself look better to other women. I want to have more and better sex with my wife. It's not important to her, or a priority. If I could get to the root of the issue, I'd be better off. But, she points to kids and stress. The kids aren't going anywhere. The stress... well, we're going to counseling, but life is stressful. Most people deal with it naturally. She has a tougher time with it.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

lessthennone said:


> Her response to your first point would be that she's stressed about her mom, her back hurts, the kids are driving her crazy, the house is a mess and she's too tired. Basically, she has that excuse any time it comes up and she makes me feel bad for asking.
> 
> I know a few things I can do to turn her on, but she has to let them happen. If she says, "how about a raincheck", am I supposed to say no?


Her excuses are superficial, while I would say you need to sit down and have a heart to heart, it would likely just add fuel to the fire and come across as if you are complaining about not getting enough sex and make her feel inadequate. 

So here is some advice after a moment of reflection. Preemptively reject her by telling her you are not in the mood! Proceed to cuddle and be intimate, and insist you are NOT in the mood. This way she can not reject you, and curiosity will get the best of her and she will likely start grabbing at you. 

In the event she offers you a raincheck, here is what I do. Generally speaking one should never barter favors in exchange for sex, and usually the wife that avoids sex may try to get a husband to do her favors to get her in a more receptive mood. So my wife actually tried to offer me a raincheck last night, and I turned the tables by saying, "OK I'll wait but what will you do to make it worth my while?" Essentially this got her to start talking dirty to me by saying things she knew I might like and I kept asking for more details! The next thing I know we were going at it! 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Her excuses are superficial, while I would say you need to sit down and have a heart to heart, it would likely just add fuel to the fire and come across as if you are complaining about not getting enough sex and make her feel inadequate.
> 
> So here is some advice after a moment of reflection. Preemptively reject her by telling her you are not in the mood! Proceed to cuddle and be intimate, and insist you are NOT in the mood. This way she can not reject you, and curiosity will get the best of her and she will likely start grabbing at you.
> 
> ...



Thanks for saying the excuses are superficial. I thought that, but couldn't say it. 

I have tried exactly what you said. Here's how it goes. I commit to not mentioning or asking for sex. This is usually after an extended period of no sex(2 weeks or so). So for another 2 weeks, I don't ask, and she doesn't mention. I start to get resentful, and she notices that. Then, she'll say "Why haven't we had sex recently?" I'm hoping to ignore her statement, but inside I'm bursting. I want her to realize it's eating me up inside. So she suggests just doing it and I usually agree. Then, it's as if the counter gets reset, but I'm still unfulfilled.

So, if I want 5m of charity sex for a 3 week wait, then that seems to work well. Personally, I think it's a bit counterproductive. But, I don't have a good alternative. :crying:


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

lessthennone said:


> Whenever I try and have a heart to heart with her, *she gets really defensive. *She thinks I'm just criticizing her. That's where I am now.


Don't ever complain or do anything to make her feel inadequate. Women have self confidence issues and performance anxiety that triggers them to become defensive and shut down as opposed to allowing themselves to become vulnerable and open.

Instead of complaining, compliment her for how sexy she is, then immediately segue into how you would really enjoy ravaging her BUT that you are really too stressed out to be able to enjoy it at that moment. Then when she asks what has you all stressed out, tell her that you can't find your raincheck that she gave you last night! 

botta boom! :grin2:

Badsanta


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

lessthennone said:


> I commit to not mentioning or asking for sex.


No you have to mention sex! Just tell her how much you don't want it because last time it was so good that your weener is still passed out and drooling. 

I call that a complimentary rejection!


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Don't ever complain or do anything to make her feel inadequate. Women have self confidence issues and performance anxiety that triggers them to become defensive and shut down as opposed to allowing themselves to become vulnerable and open.
> 
> Instead of complaining, compliment her for how sexy she is, then immediately segue into how you would really enjoy ravaging her BUT that you are really too stressed out to be able to enjoy it at that moment. Then when she asks what has you all stressed out, tell her that you can't find your raincheck that she gave you last night!
> 
> ...


So you're saying continue hinting that I want sex as normal, but then reject her when it's time to get it? 

I will be breaking the "never, ever say no to sex rule". 

So, she'll either feel rejected or chose not to take no as an answer. I think I know which one she'll chose.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

lessthennone said:


> I read MMSLP. I started working out and doing all of the stuff in the book. I realized something. I don't want to make myself look better to other women. *I want to have more and better sex with my wife. It's not important to her, or a priority. *If I could get to the root of the issue, I'd be better off. But, she points to kids and stress. The kids aren't going anywhere. The stress... well, we're going to counseling, but life is stressful. Most people deal with it naturally. She has a tougher time with it.


Was it ever important to her ? Before you married.. before kids ? 

She has obviously never been in the shoes of what it's like to be rejected sexually...not even on a mouse's scale.. *so she DOESN'T GET IT.. *

There was a long ago thread here.. that broke this down into (5) cases of what it means to be refused... 

Where would your wife fall in this...



Sawney Beane said:


> *>>* http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/39526-five-cases-refusal-what-really-means-refused.html
> 
> Simply Amorous said in another thread, regarding the pain of sexual refusal:
> "...They should infact, allow their spouse freedom -if they know they are hurting them deeply. It will never be right in my view of marraige ...or at least a happy fullfilled one..."
> ...


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

UMP said:


> I think the single most difficult aspect of turning around ones married sex life is dealing with rejection. It just pisses EVERYONE off. It pisses off the one asking and it pisses off the one being asked. As I hear it from my wife "it puts pressure on her."
> 
> There are only a couple things I have done that work for me in dealing with rejection from my wife.
> 
> ...




It's so true. Nothing makes it happen more than when you stop wanting it so bad. And not only that, but you feel better about yourself OUTSIDE of the bedroom by reclaiming that power.

OP, you're operating out of a frame of reference where she is the gatekeeper to your happiness. This leaves you feeling helpless to realize your own happiness. The game changer is when you take that power back in your own mind. 

Make yourself happy first. Once that's accomplished, the happiness will spill over into her life and she'll begin to reciprocate more. She doesn't want to be the gatekeeper to your happiness any more than you want her to be.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Was it ever important to her ? Before you married.. before kids ?
> 
> She has obviously never been in the shoes of what it's like to be rejected sexually...not even on a mouse's scale.. *so she DOESN'T GET IT.. *
> 
> ...



I discussed this with her recently. We were friends before we started dating. I was stuck in the friendzone, and she didn't make a move on me until another woman started showing interest. Then my wife stepped up and showed sexual interest and she got all my attention. She didn't have a drives license, so I would drive her everywhere. Including to meet up with boyfriends. She was very dependent on me, and I was reliable. I have some concerns that that scenario could be responsible for our mismatched libido. We did have a lot more sex then, but even then, she would act as if there was some thing we were waiting for when sex would be plentiful. I thought it was getting married, or a house, or just some free time. I think the truth is that she's LD and I'm HD. 

Either way, I brought up this scenario to be honest with her, and she got really depressed because I was "questioning everything". She always thought starting as friends was a good thing. I'm not saying it wasn't, but there was a bit of "drama" involved. I think I was a bit better of a friend to her then she was to me. Maybe if sex wasn't used to "reaffirm my commitment", then we'd be in a different place. 

I'd say number two or three. She's not malicious. It's as if she just doesn't get it. I say that all the time. She really doesn't understand. 

I've made it clear to her how I feel. She just thinks that since she's so stressed, I should understand. 

She uses our kids as an excuse why she cannot do stuff with friends. Basically, I don't think it's a good excuse, nor do our friends. But, I get the same excuse. 

The excuses seem so bad to me that I'd be insulted if she was using them intentionally. The best I can do is think that she cares, she's just a bit ignorant. She sees her side, and hears my side, but she knows her excuses are good. With the kids and her moms health, I'm the *******.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> It's so true. Nothing makes it happen more than when you stop wanting it so bad. And not only that, but you feel better about yourself OUTSIDE of the bedroom by reclaiming that power.
> 
> OP, you're operating out of a frame of reference where she is the gatekeeper to your happiness. This leaves you feeling helpless to realize your own happiness. The game changer is when you take that power back in your own mind.
> 
> Make yourself happy first. Once that's accomplished, the happiness will spill over into her life and she'll begin to reciprocate more. She doesn't want to be the gatekeeper to your happiness any more than you want her to be.


So... I have a hobby. It's probably the most fulfilling hobby I've ever had and it's educational. My kids also take part in some aspects of it, and I love it. 

She thinks it's a bad thing because it takes time away from her. 

That aspect of my life is fulfilled. In general, I'm a happy guy. I'm an optimist and a pragmatist. If something bad happens, I look forward to the fix. The fix for this issue has been evasive. Not for lack of trying.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

lessthennone said:


> So... I have a hobby. It's probably the most fulfilling hobby I've ever had and it's educational. My kids also take part in some aspects of it, and I love it.
> 
> She thinks it's a bad thing because it takes time away from her.
> 
> That aspect of my life is fulfilled. *In general, I'm a happy guy.* I'm an optimist and a pragmatist. If something bad happens, I look forward to the fix. The fix for this issue has been evasive. Not for lack of trying.


Are you though? This issue is obviously causing you distress. Even when the rest of your ducks are lined up, all it takes is something like this to really foul up your overall happiness.

I'll tell you what worked for me. I stopped looking to "fix" the issue. While I was trying to fix it, I reeked of desperation. I took a break from sex (not that I was having much anyway, but I stopped initiating) and found out that the less I obsessed about it, the happier I became.

The sex came back--better and more frequently. My wife responded to my attitude shift. I'm not in @UMP 's league or anything--I still do the bulk of the initiating and we're not knocking holes in the walls--but it's a damned sight better than it used to be. And the best part of it was that even if it hadn't have come back, I'd have still been better off for it.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Are you though? This issue is obviously causing you distress. Even when the rest of your ducks are lined up, all it takes is something like this to really foul up your overall happiness.
> 
> I'll tell you what worked for me. I stopped looking to "fix" the issue. While I was trying to fix it, I reeked of desperation. I took a break from sex (not that I was having much anyway, but I stopped initiating) and found out that the less I obsessed about it, the happier I became.
> 
> The sex came back--better and more frequently. My wife responded to my attitude shift. I'm not in @UMP 's league or anything--I still do the bulk of the initiating and we're not knocking holes in the walls--but it's a damned sight better than it used to be. And the best part of it was that even if it hadn't have come back, I'd have still been better off for it.



I must be good at compartmentalizing. That is one of the few places I'm unhappy. Otherwise, I'm happy to live in a free country, with a good job, in good health. To me, life is our only opportunity. That defines my worldview. 

"Informed ignorance is bliss." -Trademark


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

One thing you need to be aware of, none of the advice you are getting may work. While I don't discount UMP, BadSanta or Fozzy's advice, I think their advice works best when the wife wants to have sex, but doesn't want to have sex with you.

Your wife sounds like my wife and I have heard all the same excuses, ad nauseam. In my case, my wife doesn't want to have sex... period. Full stop. It's possible your wife is this way also. It took me 20 years to finally figure out the problem wasn't me, but her. 

So yes, try all the suggestions, and I hope they work for you. But don't assume that if you are making no headway, the problem is you. Be prepared to make the hard decision sooner rather than later.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

lessthennone said:


> So you're saying continue hinting that I want sex as normal, but then reject her when it's time to get it?
> 
> I will be breaking the "never, ever say no to sex rule".
> 
> *So, she'll either feel rejected or chose not to take no as an answer. * I think I know which one she'll chose.


She will not feel rejected, she will probably react initially with joy and think, "ahhh finally he can start to understand how I feel" and actually want to give you a hug. Then she will start to question herself since you have never said no to sex and start pawing at you out of curiosity. When she discovers your boner, tell her it is a "stress erection" and that it is uncomfortable. If she touches it, say that actually does help a little! 

:grin2:


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

less,

I've read through your old posts.

Deejo gave you the best advice over a year ago; destabilize the marriage. Apparently you haven't done that.

Have one talk with her. Tell her that you maintain your emotional connection with her through sex. That's not how it works for her, but that's how it works for you. Tell her that, when you haven't had sex with her for a while, you become emotionally distant. You'll work on controlling that but can make no promises.

She feels that your hobby is bad because it takes time away from her? Really? Tell her that, just like it's "normal" for couples with young children not to have sex, it's "normal" for couples with young children not to have quality time together. Tell her that you have no intention of spending the rest of your life with someone who is unable or unwilling to meet your needs. If nothing changes, you WILL be leaving at a future time of your choosing. Your children are too important to you to divorce now, but that will change in time.

There is no way that you should be spending any time at all catering to her needs while she's so casually ignoring yours.

Stop initiating sex with her. If she offers pity sex, turn her down. If you start having sex with her and she's clearly not involved; stop, get dressed and leave the room. You can live without sex, you've done it before.

If you're not the man you were when you met, be that man again. Be a better man.

Do nothing for her unless you actually want to. Focus solely on yourself and the kids.

Be polite and friendly at all times. Look up the 180.

When you first met her, you drove her to get banged by other guys.

She decided that you would do anything for her without her needing to do anything for you.

She thought she wanted that in a man but it turned out that she was wrong. That's not what she wants. That's not what she desires.

This is not the advice that I'd give everyone who isn't having enough sex with their wife. It's the advice I give you based on your history.

Either she'll come around or you'll be happier in the meantime and better prepared for your next relationship.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Your wife does not want you to initiate, yet she will ask you why you are not having sex when you honor her request?

No... No, no, no. She is gaming you.

The next time she asks you why you are not having sex, just casually shrug and say:

"I have no interest in being intimate with someone who has so little appreciation for me."

And if it were me, I would immerse myself in that hobby like it was my j.o.b. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

lessthennone said:


> So... While my wife and I are waiting to go to counseling...
> 
> How do I deal with the current rejection of sex. Let's just say I'm an HD and she's an LD. I'd like it daily, she'd like it never. At two weeks, she stars to feel bad, and she doesn't notice it until it's a thing. Then, it just bothers her because it's a thing. She never wants it.
> 
> ...


As you've probably worked out, now that you've come here for third party confirmation, that the "raincheck" is just BullS. You've been "handled", like a company that has a complaints line for customers but never does anything...of like protests about the government. As long as you accept the lie, that all that mattered. Even if the lie was originally given in all honesty.

Good news? Your government really does care for you... <yeah right>.
Bad news? So does your wife.

You're going to have to do some deep soul searching to work out whether she actually wants a partner IN her life, and what role sex plays in her ideal relationship.
I'm betting that husband, daughter, nice home, loving working hubby, holidays away, poker night, her with nights out with the girls, seeing Paris etc, are all the things she was really expecting to do with her life. Having babies because babies are so lovely, and she really wants her own bundle of love and daughter to bond with.

You as a person?.... thinking that was never actually part of her life plan. dark hair, yes. job, certainly. kind, yes. generous, respectful, cares about her opinions, yes. ... but an actual human person - how is she supposed to relate to that? food bowls? regular petting? vet visits? Better you get a job and fix stuff around the house and yard.... that's man stuff right?


----------



## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Echoing Ump, fozzy, and others. 

Destabilize. Have the talk that buddy mentioned. And then never have it again. It stands. 

Say to yourself or to her: I plan on being in a loving, sexual relationship by xx/xx/20xx whether it is with my wife or another woman. And mean it. 

Get a life. Hobby time. It's your go to in distracting yourself when you're frustrated. 

Hit the gym. Your thinking that you shouldn't have to does not make it so. Fitness is attractive to your wife and to any other woman you may hope to attract. Your goal is to simply be attractive, and fitness will give you confidence that breeds attraction. 

Outcome independence. Do it. Whether you have sex or are rejected, it matters not. Until it really doesn't, you're pouting. And pouting isn't sexy. 

No covert contracts. Nothing you do can come with an expectation of sex. She doesn't owe you ****. 

Be fun, flirty, and confident with others. Like ump said, it's not about infidelity. It's about being confident and owning your sexuality. When you feel like others would have sex with you, it translates to sex appeal that your wife may respond to. 

Be playful. No brooding, pouting, etc. she sees your resentment and again, that doesn't make her want to have sex with you. By changing your disposition, you take pressure off of sex. You need sex to be pressure and stress free for her. 

Put some energy into the relationship if you are lacking. Date your wife, make her feel special and loved. Right now you're failing her **** tests. 

**** tests. Pass them. Keep your boundaries. Don't do things that make you feel like you're needlessly doing things that are unreciprocated and sacrificing in her name. That leads to frustration. 

When you do have sex, don't settle for pity sex. Calmly state that you don't think she's into it and get up and do something else. When you have sex and she's showing interest, make sure you leave her a quivering, hot mess. 

This may not work. At which time you will have a clear conscious about fulfilling that commitment you made to yourself and begin ending the relationship so that you can seek out a loving, sexual relationship. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

Rich84's post is pure gold. I've been walking in your shoes for the past couple years and it took me way too long to man up and take full accountability for the shortcomings in our sex life instead of blaming my wife for being LD and not wanting it enough. You have to ask yourself what have you been doing to kill your wife's attraction and desire for you rather than sparking it and be brutally honest. Don't sugarcoat it. Many of the symptoms you reference are the same mistakes I was making without realizing it - acting needy, handling rejection poorly, bargaining for sex, accepting the scraps she offers even when you know she's just going through the motions to get you off her back ... These are all massive attraction killers that drive the LD woman to further retrench and believe that all you care about is sex. She constantly feels so stressed and pressured about feeling like she owes you sex that it gets overwhelming to the point where she completely loses interest. 

In weak marriages one of the partners gives up and leaves to find the real passion and intimacy that is lacking. In stronger marriages the LD will go into sexual hibernation and convince him/herself that sex is not important enough to risk destabilizing everything especially when kids are involved so you end up in prolonged stalemate until someone takes a stand along the lines described in previous posts. 

It may not seem like it on the surface but that's actually the exact kind of masculine leadership she's probably looking for from you that when followed up with more strong behavior will begin to re-ignite her desire for you. Until that happens and she starts to want good sex every bit as much as you do you will just be spinning your wheels. Be prepared for this to take much longer than you might think and to have a lot of challenging moments along the way. If you really love her and have a special enough relationship outside the bedroom, this will be the most rewarding work of your life.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

The OP has gotten lots of great advice. While you are waiting, do some introspection the rejection is not a negative on you as much a negative on your relationship the two of you share. 

Since no one has discussed it. the OP really needs to read MW Davis the sex starved marriage and Glover's no more mr nice guy. I would wager he will be shocked by what he reads and find out it is so common and the possible solutions are pretty straight forward as many have suggested. Get A Life, find hobbies that bring happiness into your life, stop with the covert contracts. Do some 180's and drop your anger.

Good Luck. Been there done that. If you marriage counselor doesn't work, ask for a recommendation with a sex therapist, they are worth it, if your wife will cooperate.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

rich84 said:


> Echoing Ump, fozzy, and others.
> 
> Destabilize. Have the talk that buddy mentioned. And then never have it again. It stands.
> 
> ...


Agree with everything except the bolded. I'd recommend you don't actually say this to your wife. It is only going to undermine trust. You may get more sex, but you won't get a good marriage.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The peanut gallery, Dr. John here included, would eventually like some details:

- was she like this BC (before children)
- what is a realistic assessment of her stress level BC and AC
- is the stress level real or contrived
- what's her and your ethnicities and religious background
- any financial issues? Does she work?
- physical health for both? Decent shape?

The stress because of children is total BS - my older girl took 5 years to sleep thru the night and she was poster girl for the "Raising your Spirited Child" book. We had some awesome times back then with my wife, and we were grad students that barely slept. So I'm s bit sceptical about the stress part...

To be honest, I would not bother with the usual acronyms like MMSLP and NMMNG. Not yet. You need to figure out why she's like that:

- does she have emotional needs
- do you fulfil them as best as you can
- could she be harboring resentments

And eventually to the hard questions...

- could it be she's taking advantage of you?

A lot of people come to TAM and they all get the usual examples of guys who turned it around. A lot of times the methods work, if compromise can be made. And if there's serious incentive to put out and stay married or else, aka your friendly ultimatum... A lot of times the methods don't work because the LD or HD will not compromise. At that point you're pushing on a rope.

Sorry for the lecture but there's no silver bullet handy. The acronym soup methods may work but before deployment think hard about the likely root causes... Then act.

ETA: the underlying assumptions here are that your side of things is good... The "be a better man" sounds great unless you're better already, in which case you may be looking at an unbalanced "95% effort for 5% improvement" type situation. 

ETA2: the peanut gallery will be burning Dr. John efffigies for saying this... Are you skilled enough to play a few psyops games with her? Nothing mind altering, just try a few things and see if her overall attitude improves or worsens.


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

lessthennone said:


> There are a few times over the last few years where I was able to completely avoid asking her for sex. After a few weeks, it really eats away at me. I never really saw how that lets me more sex, except that it makes her feel bad. At that point, it's only charity sex.
> 
> And I have trouble keeping myself from pouting.


let me clarify - i didnt mean stop directly asking for sex, i meant stop trying different things, like romance, chores, etc to get her to give you sex. And I am not telling you to stop romancing her or doing things for her, etc, just remove any sexual expectation.

i like Rich's and Umps post. Your way isnt working, stop begging, stop pouting, stop being needy. Your kids are stressful to her, why would your acting like a kid make her want sex with you. Listen what the others are telling you. 

1. Make yourself as attractive to her as possible, both physically and emotionally.

2. Take responsibility for your own happiness. if that means using your own hand to keep your desire level managable - do so. And i would do it in front of her or let her know you are doing it. Give her the opportunity to participate (whole heartily only - no charity) If she doesnt want to - dont view it as rejection, just move on. Remember, in her mind she is not rejecting you, she is only rejecting an activity. one, she doesnt paticularly like that much or enjoys that much. 

3. Act like a man, not a child. Act like you could be getting it elsewhere but you choose not to - you want it with her, ONLY if she wants it too. in other words, to repest myself - dont be needy, dont beg, dont pout, dont take charity sex. Have self confidence - have respect for yourself, and accept her and respect her. 

4. Decide your deal breaker limits - if nothing you do changes anything. make your decision and act on it - whatever it may be. 

CopperTop has pointed out that nothing may work. your wife may never be sexual the way you want. If that turns out to be the case, you will have to decide what that means to you, and if you can live with and love her tbe way she is. some men can, others cant.


----------



## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> Agree with everything except the bolded. I'd recommend you don't actually say this to your wife. It is only going to undermine trust. You may get more sex, but you won't get a good marriage.



Yes, after reflection I agree fozzy. Maybe I got ahead of myself. I do wholeheartedly think he should internalize that mantra. Unless he's actually willing to go nuclear, then his talk and ensuing expectations will be of zero value (weak sauce) if she doesn't begin to more actively work on this as their problem. There's got to be a plan. A lot of guys say that they would jet if only it weren't for the kids, the finances... But they have very little power to actually destabilize anything. She should probably feel the pressure: "My man is attractive, confident, a real catch to others, and he's willing to leave me to find a more satisfying partnership." It doesn't have to be said, just perceived through his action. 

However, after the talk... If he is approaching his drop dead date, I do think there's a place for that piece of info to be shared. Unfortunately, it's more of a courtesy about the impending divorce than any real effort to fix things. But finding one's happiness independently of one's spouse, getting a life, and continuing to remain calm, content, etc. in the face of rejection looks a lot like marital contentment. Increasing levels of distance and disinterest may be the only clues. 

There was a member who shared this with his wife during MC close to the edge of things. I don't recall who or if he was successful, but it woke up his wife when the talk didn't have much effect. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

Ump or somebody else said it already, but one way to deal with the sexual frustration is to channel your sexual energy outward. It looks like confidence and playfulness. Granted, taking the edge off manually is very helpful too. But I've been able to actually feel in control, and this is the most important part. 

You can't rely on your wife for that feeling if there's a sexual mismatch (nor should you, really. It's codependency). For men who have women that build them up and make them feel like a sex god, they carry that energy with them in the form of confidence. They exude fvckability. For men that don't receive that gift (and perhaps we are lucky in this respect), we have to find that confidence from within (what an awesome opportunity, no?). 

So, if my wife won't fvck me, just look around. There's lots of women who will. It's not about actually finding a willing woman to have sex. It's about feeling like you have control of your sexual outcome. It undermines the importance of your wife's role (and perceived power) in your sexuality. 

When you take this power back and own your sh!t, a couple things happen. First, other women take notice. Your energy is charged. Secondly, your wife will take notice too. She may or may not respond, but you have the confidence to attract another if she doesn't. 

Also, and this is painful for some to hear. You probably aren't meeting her needs. I thought I was an awesome husband because I sacrificed so much, gave so much for her. All those sacrifices made me resent her when she didn't push my love language buttons (or understand why they were important). The resentment I carried made me value her less, more quick to anger and argument, and depressed. It wasn't until I let go of that resentment through owning my own outcome that I could see I was causing an emotional divide and hurting her connectedness to me. As John said, really inspect and reinspect your side of the fence. It's the only side that you have the power to change. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

rich84 said:


> Yes, after reflection I agree fozzy. Maybe I got ahead of myself. I do wholeheartedly think he should internalize that mantra. Unless he's actually willing to go nuclear, then his talk and ensuing expectations will be of zero value (weak sauce) if she doesn't begin to more actively work on this as their problem. There's got to be a plan. A lot of guys say that they would jet if only it weren't for the kids, the finances... But they have very little power to actually destabilize anything. She should probably feel the pressure: "My man is attractive, confident, a real catch to others, and he's willing to leave me to find a more satisfying partnership." It doesn't have to be said, just perceived through his action.
> 
> However, after the talk... If he is approaching his drop dead date, I do think there's a place for that piece of info to be shared. Unfortunately, it's more of a courtesy about the impending divorce than any real effort to fix things. But finding one's happiness independently of one's spouse, getting a life, and continuing to remain calm, content, etc. in the face of rejection looks a lot like marital contentment. Increasing levels of distance and disinterest may be the only clues.
> 
> There was a member who shared this with his wife during MC close to the edge of things. I don't recall who or if he was successful, but it woke up his wife when the talk didn't have much effect.



Yes indeed. Let's say you have followed all the great advice on this thread. In particular, you've done all the work on yourself, become the most attractive version of you possible. Like it says above, your wife will know that _ "My man is attractive, confident, a real catch to others, and he's willing to leave me to find a more satisfying partnership."_

So at this point, you need to sit her down, and in a calm and confident way, *get honest*. Tell her you are unhappy with the sexual rejection and that you cannot remain married and/or faithful like this long term. Maybe not in those exact words, but somehow you must convey to her *this is in fact a dealbreaker*, and if she's unwilling to have a normal sexual relationship with you, that you will be meeting those needs outside the marriage and she is free to initiate a divorce if that is unacceptable to her.

This is NOT a threat, nor an ultimatum. This is actually you being honest with her and yourself. Because if you are like me, with a normal sex drive, then a low sex marriage WILL eventually fail: absolutely, guaranteed, take it to the bank. She needs to know this, it is important information. Do this in a manner that shows you are not fighting against her, but FOR your marriage.

In my case, this was exactly the wake up call my wife needed to break out of her selfish fog of denial. We are now having sex 2 or 3 per week. And she enjoys it, too. But you say, she is LD, how is this possible? Simple: she loves me, she wants me to be happy, so she meets my reasonable needs, just as I meet her reasonable needs.
And if that weren't true, why would I stay faithful? Why stay married?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Some wives will respond positively to such a, ehem, hint. Others will play along for a while and revert, and others will simply decide to bomb the marriage instead. We have the divorce laws to thank for that I suppose. It happens the other way around as well where the man is the LD.

I will reiterate the triage part. If the LD partner is simply unaware of the importance of physical intimacy, that can generally be addressed via DIY methods. But if the LD partner is actively seeking to minimize or eliminate physical intimacy, that's a different story.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

tommyr said:


> So at this point, you need to sit her down, and in a calm and confident way, *get honest*. Tell her you are unhappy with the sexual rejection and that you cannot remain married and/or faithful like this long term. Maybe not in those exact words, but somehow you must convey to her *this is in fact a dealbreaker*, and if she's unwilling to have a normal sexual relationship with you, that you will be meeting those needs outside the marriage and she is free to initiate a divorce if that is unacceptable to her.


And if she doesn't meet those needs and you go outside the marriage, and get caught, good luck walking out of the marriage with more than a suitcase. 

Outsourcing sex is a bit harder than outsourcing lawn care, and spouses that intentionally withhold know this.


----------



## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

john117 said:


> But if the LD partner is actively seeking to minimize or eliminate physical intimacy, that's a different story.



The service levels that you talk about can only be unilaterally enforced in the context of power. Unless you're willing to go nuclear, the talks are just empty threats. Of course they know if finances or kids or whatever will prevent you from actually leaving and act accordingly. There's no prerogative to disrupt the status quo unless the unhappy partner is both willing and able to drop the bomb. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

rich84 said:


> The service levels that you talk about can only be unilaterally enforced in the context of power. Unless you're willing to go nuclear, the talks are just empty threats. Of course they know if finances or kids or whatever will prevent you from actually leaving and act accordingly. There's no prerogative to disrupt the status quo unless the unhappy partner is both willing and able to drop the bomb.


And even then, as I indicated, the LD / ZD spouse (if woman) would likely have the full power of the divorce industrial complex behind her, not to mention infinite amount of goodwill from friends and extended family... 

Or, if the LD / ZD spouse is independently well off, working with good income, and so on, she can tell the non LD to FOAD and that's all there is to it. 

Think of it as WGTOW.


----------



## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

john117 said:


> And if she doesn't meet those needs and you go outside the marriage, and get caught, good luck walking out of the marriage with more than a suitcase.
> 
> Outsourcing sex is a bit harder than outsourcing lawn care, and spouses that intentionally withhold know this.


I do not fear what would happen in a divorce because I trust my ability to rebuild anything that goes to her and I understand the laws of divorce in my state. It would all be well worth the price of me not living in a low sex marriage.

I have enough confidence and game to outsource sex if that ever became necessary.

John I suspect that fear (of divorce) and confidence (about your sexual marketability) are exactly why she holds all the cards, and you have zero leverage to burst through her bubble of selfish denial. What would happen if you let go of that fear, renewed your self confidence as a desirable man, and then* truly get honest with her*? 1 thing for sure: you wind up with an active sex life, either with your current wife, or your next girlfriend (either with opened marriage or divorced). All around win-win.


----------



## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

rich84 said:


> The service levels that you talk about can only be unilaterally enforced in the context of power. Unless you're willing to go nuclear, the talks are just empty threats. Of course they know if finances or kids or whatever will prevent you from actually leaving and act accordingly. There's no prerogative to disrupt the status quo unless the unhappy partner is both willing and able to drop the bomb.


I am not advising any threats of leaving. First of all, there is no *threat*: it is *honesty *about the inevitable marriage failure without sexual intimacy. Second, I was not leaving at all, but rather willing to go outside the marriage for my sexual needs. That is completely reasonable, and she obviously did not care about having sex so what is the big deal? If she wanted to leave, that would be up to her, I was making her aware of my intention to not live a forced celibate life.

Anyway this was all done in the loving context of me fighting to SAVE the marriage. And that's exactly what happened!


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

The one thing I notice on many of these HD - LD conflict threads is that the HD spouse does the same thing over and over and expects different results. They come looking for advice, but then they give reason after reason why they cant follow the advice, and continue doing the same old stuff that isnt working.

I am not saying that they should follow the advice gjven, but I do think that they should try to glean some wisdom from the posters, consider and evaluate if it has value or is helpful in any way and then fashion their own solution and tailor fit it to their needs and mosf importantly, STOP doing what isnt working. 

what wisdom could one glean from this post? For one thing - i think almost everyone is telling the OP, that his current behavior is actually contributing to his problem. 

As far as what to substitute in its place, thats where it gets more complicated and one has to tailor fit a solution. and sometimes that effort takes a lot of trial and error. Always - it takes time and alot of work. Use your gut feelings, use your knowledge about your wife, her personality and her past behavior. Do some further research if necessary to learn about love languages, or read the resourses others recommend. Try things you think might work, give it time, and if you dont see results, reevaluate and try something else. Try anything new - break out of the old non working cycle. There may be no guarantees that what you try will work, but there IS a guarentee that doing the same stuff you have been doing will NOT work. Its already a proven fact or you wouldnt be here.

That is what the posters who have gotten results have done, and i would bet all of them will tell you - there are no quick fixes - and no sure fire solutions. They will also tell you what worked for them, does not always work for others. However, somewhere along the line something they tried NEW worked. There are cases, unfortunately, way too many, as some have pointed out where no matter what the HD tries or changes and improvements they make to themselves, the LD still refuses to do their part or to cooperate or to respond. in these cases the conflict is lost, there are no solutions and decisions by the HD have to be made if its a deal breaker or not.

While the solutions are sometimes very hard to find to resolve LD - HD conflicts and sometimes there are no solutions, HOWEVER, if you read enough threads you will find a whole list of things that guarentee failure almost every time, that seldom if ever work, so those things should be avoided or stopped if already doing. 

Here are a few that will NOT get results in improving a sexual relatiinship 
1. pouting - never ever gets anyone more sex. it makes you look childish
2. begging - no long term benefit, and only rarely gets short term result, but any sex given during the short term is almost always very poor quality. begging makes you look weak, desperate, and causes a partner to lose respect for you.
3. doing things with the expectation of sex as a result - typically results only in dissapointment and resentment, seldom results in more sex. No one owes anyone sex and no one likes to feel their spouse thinks they do.
4. Avoiding confrontation about the problem, ignoring it, feeling guilty over it, passive aggressive behavior, complaining, whining, being mad and resentful all the time - no results ever - that i have ever seen. 
5. Insisting your physical or emotional appearance or good hygiene doesnt and shouldnt matter, so wont work on being attractive to the partner. To me, this seems obvious, but apparently not.
6 Refusing to work on the whole relationship or refusing to fix ones own contributing issues - and only concentrating on on getting the spouse to fix the sexual issue. Almost always there are other underlying problems contfibuting to a HD - LD conflict. Seldom is there only a desire difference. 

There are more, and maybe others will chime in. But bottom line in my mind - stop doing what has already been proven wont work, and try something new that may work instead. And keep trying new things until you either find something that works, or it becomes clear that your spouse isnt going to budge no matter what.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

I'm going to give some more background... I've been working on this for over a year. I've read MMSLP and No More Mr Nice Guy. Lot's of other books as well. I think I've tried a lot of what was suggested above. I have done the exercise thing, but I prefer endurance stuff to weights. I should mention, I've always been fit. Not beefcake fit, but nobody tells me I look out of shape. The point is, I've changed my behavior a few ways. I'm not doing the same thing and expecting different results. I've tried a bunch of stuff. I'm in the midst of a new effort, but I have to wait for the appointment. 

I did try the destabilize thing, and more recently started counseling. I'm still waiting for our first session together. A 6 weeks wait. 

Also, on pouting or whining or whatever. My wife's excuse for no sex is that she's tired. She walks into the room, when I think she's ready; but instead of sexy time, she says I'm going to bed. Then she goes to bed. She wouldn't see me pout. I don't beg. I basically do what many have suggested in this post. Imply it's no big deal and go onto whatever I was doing. But, I've done that for a while. That's what's not getting me anywhere. Maybe I"m being to passive aggressive. Maybe I'm not being assertive enough. 

My wife has a mother who has dementia, my wife is depressed and stressed, the kids stress her out, and she has a bad back. It's only sex I'm looking for, so I've taken a back seat to her stresses. That's what she considers her excuse. At the same time, it really seems like she has no desire. When I try and talk with her, she thinks I'm criticizing her. I used the words boring and unfulfilled to refer to our sex life. She really got upset. I don't get it. When I try and talk with her, she thinks I'm trying to catch her in something. I just want to understand. 

I really get the feeling that she has no desire and uses everything she can think of as an excuse. At some point, she stopped trying to even come up with a good excuse. It's a definite downer. I hope it's not completely true, but maybe. 

I guess I just have to wait until the counseling. Maybe I jumped the gun by trying to discuss this with her.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

I do have a side question... Is it bad for me to try and discuss this before our counseling appointment? 

I've said to her that if she gets some stuff in order, then maybe everything else will fall into place. She kind of threw that in my face, but maybe she's right. We shouldn't discuss this until hopeful some of the stuff starts to fall into place. 

Or should we discuss it because we're married and the counseling will only last an hour and we need to figure out how to talk about stuff ourselves?


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

it sounds like counseling may be your final effort then, if what you say is true, and nothing else has worked. If the counseling doesn't work, then i think you have some major decisions to make about your marriage. just make sure you have a really good counselor, and dont hesitate to chsnge if you dont, especially given the fact that this may be your last chance at success.


----------



## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

Forgetting any counseling or talks for the moment...

When did you last have sex?
When did you last initiate sex?
How exactly did you initiate?
Assuming that was a rejection...
What exactly did she say when you last initiated sex?
What exactly did you do after she rejected you?

A couple things that were very effective in my situation:
1. I always initiate strongly. Subtle hints are useless on my LD wife. Of course I do subtly flirt with her during the day... but when it's time to actually get busy, then I initiate with obvious passion and desire which seems to turn her on.
2. If she says NO, I totally accept that, but I counter that with an optimistic "OK then we are DEFINITELY getting busy tomorrow!"
3. Absolutely zero pouting or anger. Never Never!
4. In case of a "raincheck" situation, I always don't expect her to "remember" so I again initiate strongly, perhaps reminding her this is a raincheck situation. 
5. If I get NO on the next day raincheck, I ask "ok so WHEN exactly is a good day/time for us to connect?" which is generally no more than another day or 2.

Basically the point is the I am the one with a normal sex drive, so I am the one who does the initiating, and I don't let her default LD approach discourage me.


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

lessthennone said:


> I do have a side question... Is it bad for me to try and discuss this before our counseling appointment?
> 
> I've said to her that if she gets some stuff in order, then maybe everything else will fall into place. She kind of threw that in my face, but maybe she's right. We shouldn't discuss this until hopeful some of the stuff starts to fall into place.
> 
> Or should we discuss it because we're married and the counseling will only last an hour and we need to figure out how to talk about stuff ourselves?


Havent you already been discussing this issue to death? Stop, and wait for help from a professional.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

tommyr said:


> I do not fear what would happen in a divorce because I trust my ability to rebuild anything that goes to her and I understand the laws of divorce in my state. It would all be well worth the price of me not living in a low sex marriage.
> 
> I have enough confidence and game to outsource sex if that ever became necessary.
> 
> John I suspect that fear (of divorce) and confidence (about your sexual marketability) are exactly why she holds all the cards, and you have zero leverage to burst through her bubble of selfish denial. What would happen if you let go of that fear, renewed your self confidence as a desirable man, and then* truly get honest with her*? 1 thing for sure: you wind up with an active sex life, either with your current wife, or your next girlfriend (either with opened marriage or divorced). All around win-win.


Actually the only reason I haven't walked yet is a huge college bill which conveniently ends May 2017. At which point I walk. I was planning to do a surprise exit (torpedo) but decided on a more transparent strategy. But sex is the least of my concerns. Our post retirement goals are vastly different and I don't plan to follow her financially suicidal ideas.

Also, the ultimatums and such may work for a SAHM or lower wage earner fearing the future. Doesn't work quite as well if she's making six figures..


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

mary35 said:


> it sounds like counseling may be your final effort then, if what you say is true, and nothing else has worked. If the counseling doesn't work, then i think you have some major decisions to make about your marriage. just make sure you have a really good counselor, and dont hesitate to chsnge if you dont, especially given the fact that this may be your last chance at success.


Well, I wouldn't get divorced over a lack of sex. I'm not sure what final effort means, but if it fails, it's not like I'd stop trying.


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

One other thought, ask her if you can reach an agreement that once a week, there WILL be sex. Scheduling allows you to express affection to her at times other than the appointed time, and she can accept it as affection, not "He's just doing that to get me in the mood"

Here is a link to a site that had many articles that helped me reach my wife. Author does not recommend husbands giving it to their wives, but it worked for me, New to this blog? Start here. - The Forgiven Wife

We had many issues to deal with in our marriage. One of the things I did to help me deal with the stress was to join a gym and work out like a m-----f-----!

I had already laid out to my wife what I felt the issues were. I started working out so hard, I couldn't get it up if I tried. Weights, and a lot of walking. Dieting, protein powder, the works. Lost 50 pounds. New clothes, haircuts, paying a lot more attention to myself.

My wife asked me one night why I was pushing myself so hard. My response was "I want to be in a intimate relationship with someone, I hope it's you"

You have to be willing to lose the relationship in order to save it. It's a hard place to be in.

It wasn't until my wife saw I truly was ready to walk away, that she started to address her past baggage issues.

We have agreed on once a week, not as often as I would LIKE, but much better than going months without.

Best of luck

ps - I used to get sad when she rejected, and she used to mock me. If you wife does this, tell her that you respect her feeling, and she damn well better have consideration for yours!


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

lessthennone said:


> Well, I wouldn't get divorced over a lack of sex. I'm not sure what final effort means, but if it fails, it's not like I'd stop trying.


If you want a raise, but let your boss know that's you're not going to leave your job if you don't get it .............................


----------



## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

tommyr said:


> I am not advising any threats of leaving. First of all, there is no *threat*: it is *honesty *about the inevitable marriage failure without sexual intimacy. Second, I was not leaving at all, but rather willing to go outside the marriage for my sexual needs. That is completely reasonable, and she obviously did not care about having sex so what is the big deal? If she wanted to leave, that would be up to her, I was making her aware of my intention to not live a forced celibate life.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway this was all done in the loving context of me fighting to SAVE the marriage. And that's exactly what happened!



Semantics. The threat is an implied conclusion when you discuss failure of the marriage. Of course it should be phrased in the manner you laid out. Of course it is to save the marriage. 

I was not willing to outsource sex. It was splitsville if the relationship intimacy didn't improve. To me marriage is a sexual relationship. The only reason to stay in the face of forced celibacy (barring illness) would be some compromise due to kids or finances. And I believe that everyone would be better off just biting the bullet in that situation. 

"I'm going to go sleep around now, you can divorce me if you want to" seems to me to be a weak stance unless you really think an open marriage is what you're after. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

john117 said:


> Actually the only reason I haven't walked yet is a huge college bill which conveniently ends May 2017. At which point I walk. I was planning to do a surprise exit (torpedo) but decided on a more transparent strategy. But sex is the least of my concerns. Our post retirement goals are vastly different and I don't plan to follow her financially suicidal ideas.
> 
> Also, the ultimatums and such may work for a SAHM or lower wage earner fearing the future. Doesn't work quite as well if she's making six figures..


Why not full transparency then: tell her now that her selfish decision to forgo a normal sex life does not extend to you, that you will be ringing in the new year at the downtown club with all the hotties. This is not an ultimatum: it is being honest with her that your sexless marriage is doomed.

You are wrong about the word ultimatum.
You are also wrong that taking the honest approach is only effective on low earners: my wife would earn 6 figures, but she's cut back... I kid you not... to have more energy at home which she needs for our active sex life!!!


----------



## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

lessthennone said:


> Well, I wouldn't get divorced over a lack of sex. I'm not sure what final effort means, but if it fails, it's not like I'd stop trying.



I think there's a lot you can work on to try to improve things. But this stance will never work. If you have really tried it all and made your needs clear, and still aren't having a satisfactory sex life, then you are communicating that you are fine with how things are.

Ultimately, you are unwilling to risk the marriage in order to save it. Then sex isn't that important to you, and you have to learn to manage your frustrations in a more productive way. 

Things to stop immediately:

Don't ever beg for a pity handjob ever again, especially not for a whole week. Needy! In fact, don't ask anything of her. You are your own, self-sufficient, interesting person. Anything less is just her having to care for another child. 

Don't ever again wait in your bed for your wife to come in, take charge, and ravage you. That's your job. Rejection takes its toll, but weak come ons have moistened zero panties. 

Don't ever again give a sh!t if you get rejected. Oh well, your loss. You've got stuff to do (like right this second). Don't hope upon hopes that tonight's the night only to get pissy when it's not. Try again the next day. Be cool and attentive in the interim. Show her you're in control. 

Don't assume that because you're fit that your wife finds you attractive. I lost a crap ton of weight. I thought my wife would be all over me. Nope. It wasn't until I started lifting weights that she perked up and started to sexually respond more. 

Also, think about what action would get the desired response. Think in terms of "What is sexy?" Is messing around on my iPad sexy? Nope. How about engaging my wife in some playful conversation, asking about her day, etc. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

john117 said:


> Actually the only reason I haven't walked yet is a huge college bill which conveniently ends May 2017. At which point I walk. I was planning to do a surprise exit (torpedo) but decided on a more transparent strategy. But sex is the least of my concerns. Our post retirement goals are vastly different and I don't plan to follow her financially suicidal ideas.
> 
> Also, the ultimatums and such may work for a SAHM or lower wage earner fearing the future. Doesn't work quite as well if she's making six figures..



John, why are finances the only reason to respond? Isn't the desire to stay married to the other person enough? If she's financially independent and tells you to get lost with your needs, then boy do you have your answer. Glad you have a plan. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Way too simple an explanation. 

If I decide to hang out with the hotties, one of two things happen. Either I get lucky and risk arrest - Padukah is not exactly haven for legal hotties - or I don't, in which case nothing accomplished. Or, I hit on the intern moms or single coworkers which gives my partner all the rationale in the world to take me to the cleaners. The exact scenario happened to her cousin.

Two, high incomes often have high expectations of themselves in terms of what they can put up with. A less financially able spouse will put out if need be, or has a higher chance of doing so. High earner types didn't get to earn that kind of dough by being pushovers. Like high earning men, income often distorts reality.

Three, I'm 56 years old with rather high criteria. My social circle is not exactly full of merry widows. I've had my fun with the incumbent for 25 years, and I'm happy to part ways ready for my next phase of my life.

Fourth, I have enough energy to cycle for 35 miles... My wife as well. I don't think energy is the issue unless the objective is three times a day


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

rich84 said:


> John, why are finances the only reason to respond? Isn't the desire to stay married to the other person enough? If she's financially independent and tells you to get lost with your needs, then boy do you have your answer. Glad you have a plan.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The desire will be there if being married means something. I know my wife enjoys being married so that awkward questions don't come up . 

They will eventually.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

tommyr said:


> Forgetting any counseling or talks for the moment...
> 
> When did you last have sex?
> When did you last initiate sex?
> ...


Most recently... I made a few sexy comments in the morning, and then over the phone from work. I got home, more comments, we had dinner and put the kids to bed. 

After we put the kids to bed, she likes to go into our kitchen to make sure it's straitened up. That has become part of our issue. I've asked to help her clean it up but she says that's her time to herself. After the kids have gone to bed. She usually spends anywhere from 30m to an hour in there. She says she's cleaning, but she's on her phone more then she's cleaning. She doesn't see it that way, but how long does it take to clean a kitchen? Also, I've suggested to her that we both start cleaning at 6:30pm so it's done when our kids go to sleep. She says that's her time to herself. She even got a bit upset when I tried to do it at 6:30. She said "I like that time to myself". So... After the kitchen, she walks into the living room and says "I'm going up to bed". 

The above paragraph is basically how it happens every night. The only difference is that the most recent time, when she offered me a raincheck, I asked her if I could say no. I never did that before. She begrudgingly agreed and said make it quick. So we had sex. Typically, I don't say anything abot being rejected until the next day. Then I just ask about the rain check and whether it's good for that evening. 

I know I have to break that kitchen routine. I thought it was possible that she was taking pills for her back and they were making her tired all of a sudden. I've asked her and tried counting her pills. I don't think that's it. I've tried helping her clean up, but honestly it takes 10m and no more. The rest is mostly her relaxing.

She does claim she need more sleep then the average person due to having Epstein-Barr as a child. I don't believe that's really the case, but I'm not a Dr. She seems to crash at about 9PM. 

Before kids, it was better. She did change a lot after the kids. For me, it feels like she just got a good excuse, but it's possible there was some physiological change. That's what she sees to think. 

If I initiate, she'll usually roll her eyes or say Ugh, now?" Then, she tells me about the kids and being tired and her mom and everything. 

On the days she agrees, she still rolls her eyes and says "Ugh", but then she walks to the bathroom and comes back willing to at least lay there while I have my way. 

When she rejects me.... That's basically her peaking into the living room and saying "I'm going up" or "can we have a rain check, I'm tired." She then goes upstairs, so she wouldn't see my reaction. 

So the next day, I'll say "I have a rain-check for tonight, right?" She'll say "Maybe" or "We'll see".


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

rich84 said:


> I think there's a lot you can work on to try to improve things. But this stance will never work. If you have really tried it all and made your needs clear, and still aren't having a satisfactory sex life, then you are communicating that you are fine with how things are.
> 
> Ultimately, you are unwilling to risk the marriage in order to save it. Then sex isn't that important to you, and you have to learn to manage your frustrations in a more productive way.
> 
> ...



OK... I said that I wouldn't get divorced over a lack of sex. I didn't say that I wouldn't suggest divorce to let her knopw how serious it is. In fact, I've done that before. She heard divorce, but she didn't hear what I was saying about it. So all of a sudden, I'm divorcing her for being a failure as a wife. That's her depression kicking in. I can't converse with her about these topics becuase she takes it all personally. 

Yesterday, I told her I feel like our sex life has been "unfulfilling and boring". All she hears is "You're boring and not fulfilling me". She's insulted, and mad. It made me think I needed to wait the six weeks before we discuss this. It has to be in the presence of a mediator. Someone who can say he's not insulting you, he's talking with you. Listen to what he's saying, don't defend what you're doing. Maybe, if you listened instead of getting defensive, you would understand better. That's my hopes.


----------



## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

lessthennone said:


> Most recently... I made a few sexy comments in the morning, and then over the phone from work. I got home, more comments, we had dinner and put the kids to bed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're in serious trouble, my friend. You have failed miserably. 

She thinks you only want her for sex, like a blow up doll. You reinforce this by accepting scraps (pity sex), begging, etc. 

The kitchen routine - she is actively avoiding you and waiting you out so as to limit the likelihood that sex will happen. 

Your sexual innuendo makes her cringe and also reinforces the fact that sex is all you care about. 

You have to stop this behavior. You read all the right books but it doesn't sound like you implemented any of the suggestions. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Crash at 9 pm... Unless she agrees to some serious counseling and work to address issues things aren't improving anytime soon.


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Be the best dad you can be, be the best YOU that you can be.
Let her see what she will be losing. Find something that makes you happy (and doesn't reside between her legs).

Start to detach. Workout, express how much sex bonds you to her ONCE, then start living your own life.

Once you show you are starting to build a life without her, and are happy. It's up to her.

You prepare to move on.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

rich84 said:


> You're in serious trouble, my friend. You have failed miserably.
> 
> She thinks you only want her for sex, like a blow up doll. You reinforce this by accepting scraps (pity sex), begging, etc.
> 
> ...


OK. You are onto something here. 

Yes. She thinks I only want her for sex. It's not the case, but it's her opinion. Maybe I make it worse? 

Kitchen routine... Yes. 

Yes. She cringes with my sexual innuendo. I'm not vulgar, though. It's basically G-rated, otherwise, she'd be turned off immediately. For example, I cannot use the word BJ, I have to use the word "business". A lot of our sexual references come in that form. Maybe that's an issue itself. Even sex... I say "want to scrumph?" It's softens the blow. No porn star language coming from me. 

I agree I have to change something. Do I get more assertive or less assertive? The same in regards to sex. Do I continue taking her out and trying to schedule stuff? Destabilizing sounds good and all, but I'm not sure using destability as a tool is responsible. Especially when she's crying because I brought up divorce even though I have no intention of getting divorced. I just want to improve our sex life. 

It really seems like the whole issue is that I'm an HD. I wish I could just fix that.


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Send you wife this link - Dear Sister - The Forgiven Wife

Tell her simply, it isn't just sex, it never has been. It bonds me to you, forms a connection like NOTHING else in this world does.

I married you to have this connection with you for the rest our lives.


----------



## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

lessthennone said:


> So... While my wife and I are waiting to go to counseling...
> 
> How do I deal with the current rejection of sex. Let's just say I'm an HD and she's an LD. I'd like it daily, she'd like it never. At two weeks, she stars to feel bad, and she doesn't notice it until it's a thing. Then, it just bothers her because it's a thing. She never wants it.
> 
> ...



I've been through what you're going through.

I also am a HD guy and my wife is a LD woman.

I could have sex every day and she can have sex 1 to 2x month.

If I initiate sex once every week, that's way too much and I'm pressuring her, so the sex doesn't happen at all.

With a LD spouse, they don't need much if at all, so its not a big deal to them. There is nothing you can really do about this.

When married, you are to take care of each others needs as your own. That means she takes care of your HD and you take care of her needs.


Take the 5 love languages quiz and you'll be surprised how different you both are and what your true needs will be. Then compare to each other afterwards.

Language Profile | The 5 Love Languages®

Turns out I am Physical rating 12 were as my wife is Acts of Service rating 12. I need physicality all the time and lots of sex but she doesn't and likes to please me which makes her feel good. If I try to please her she usually isn't in the mood or has excuses.


Solution, let her initiate sex and you no longer do this. Cuddle with her, hold her, hugs, kisses, romantic emoticons, texting, doing things around the house without being asked, lead her and man up. She will see this and initiate sex. Not as often as you'd like but she will initiate sex. In my situation about 2x month. I also bought a male sex toy, pocket p$ssy, to get it out of my system when I'm going stir crazy.

Again, nothing you can do with a LD spouse. You just learn to live with it.

Usually the LD spouse has past issues that were never addressed or maybe its a self esteem weight issue.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

CuddleBug said:


> I've been through what you're going through.
> 
> I also am a HD guy and my wife is a LD woman.
> 
> ...


We discussed the love languages a few weeks back. She was affirmation, service, and gifts. When pushed, service was her #1. 

If I waited for her to initiate, I'd never get it.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Less,
The ego is truly a mystery. In an effort to protect itself from pain, it often self sabotages. Perhaps that is happening here. 

Your wife avoids having sex with you because she dislikes it. The reason this is not glaringly obvious is that she tolerates (maybe even likes) a bit of sexual attention. Makes her feel attractive. Loved. 

But actual sex - no. She doesn't like it. 

Now it is possible that you can fix that. Possible. But the first step is to acknowledge that currently she does not like it. 

She is likely afraid to directly say that to you in words. But her actions scream the truth of it. It's why she hides in the kitchen at night and plays on her phone. 

If you don't start the process with this acknowledgement, than the following will happen. Your wife will: 
- continue to think poorly of your ability to understand her 'real' communication 
- resent your continued pressure for her to do something she dislikes
- continue to minimize sex as much as possible




lessthennone said:


> Most recently... I made a few sexy comments in the morning, and then over the phone from work. I got home, more comments, we had dinner and put the kids to bed.
> 
> After we put the kids to bed, she likes to go into our kitchen to make sure it's straitened up. That has become part of our issue. I've asked to help her clean it up but she says that's her time to herself. After the kids have gone to bed. She usually spends anywhere from 30m to an hour in there. She says she's cleaning, but she's on her phone more then she's cleaning. She doesn't see it that way, but how long does it take to clean a kitchen? Also, I've suggested to her that we both start cleaning at 6:30pm so it's done when our kids go to sleep. She says that's her time to herself. She even got a bit upset when I tried to do it at 6:30. She said "I like that time to myself". So... After the kitchen, she walks into the living room and says "I'm going up to bed".
> 
> ...


----------



## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

lessthennone said:


> OK. You are onto something here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're normal, man. Your high drive is not the issue. 

And yes, you're definitely making it worse. If you know it makes her cringe, why are you continuing to do it? Basically, if anything you're doing doesn't have the desired effect (or worse, the opposite of the desired effect), why do it? 

You threatened divorce and never intended to go through with it. Is there a weaker, more manipulative ploy than that? She thinks, because you've given her every indication, that it's all about sex for you, and your only goal in life is to extract it from her at all costs. 

You have to take the pressure off of sex. Right now it's a high stress venture for you both. You need to get to the root of your wife's needs and turnoffs in therapy so that you can stop pushing the wrong buttons and start to turn this death spiral around. Right now you're trying to extract something from your wife. Does that sound loving?

You have to make it clear what sex means to you as stated above in another post. It's the means by which you feel connected to your wife. Right now that's just lip service. And it will continue to be lip service until you can prove that you're interested in your wife beyond sex. 

You have to get to the root of her aversions to sexuality including the use of nonsensical names to describe basic sex acts. That can derail you just by itself. 

I can't tell you to be more assertive until some of these other things are resolved. But assertiveness is generally more attractive than passive come-ons. However, you may need to just put on the brakes here for a while until you can begin to address some of your behaviors and her issues in therapy. 

I would spend this time focusing on improving your self-control, engaging her in different ways that show your interest in her outside of the context of sex, and reestablishing a connection. 

I think you are beyond just trying to improve your sex life. You're not just trying to spice things up. You need to be after repairing damage that has caused loss of attraction and emotional intimacy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

This is probably the last thing you want to hear but I think you need to take sex off the table indefinitely. Tell her proactively that it has become obvious that you two are not on the same page in terms of the kind of passion/intimacy/romance/sex you each want and expect out of the relationship and rather than continuing to have the stress and pressure build, you think it would be best to take sex off the table for a while and focus on the other aspects of your relationship. 

For you to come out the other end of this with the healthy, mutually enjoyable sex life you crave, you need to blow up the status quo and reframe how you and your wife relate sexually. Somewhere along the way you lost her trust and respect in the bedroom and continuing to bargain for sex and accept the scraps she is offering you is only widening the gulf between you. All this assumes you really love her and have the kind of relationship outside the bedroom that is worth taking a couple steps backward sexually in order to take the big steps forward that you want to take. 

You have to understand that you can't make her desire you, you can only make yourself more desirable - by doing all the things mentioned in previous posts that make you look more masculine, confident and unaffected by outcomes in her eyes. she is currently detached, evasive and non-responsive to your advances and you need to completely reboot how you interact with her in order to make her become more responsive and stimulate her desire. I wish there were a silver bullet but unfortunately there isn't one.


----------



## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

rich84 said:


> Semantics. The threat is an implied conclusion when you discuss failure of the marriage. Of course it should be phrased in the manner you laid out. Of course it is to save the marriage.
> 
> I was not willing to outsource sex. It was splitsville if the relationship intimacy didn't improve. To me marriage is a sexual relationship. The only reason to stay in the face of forced celibacy (barring illness) would be some compromise due to kids or finances. And I believe that everyone would be better off just biting the bullet in that situation.
> 
> "I'm going to go sleep around now, you can divorce me if you want to" seems to me to be a weak stance unless you really think an open marriage is what you're after.


Not weak. Not an ultimatum. Not semantics. 
It was HONEST.

My approach is a course of last resort. After I had tried all the standard advice for many many months: read the NMMNG and MMSLP, done the 180, lifted the weights, gotten into top physical shape, speak fluently in her native love language, all that and nothing seemed to work.

My approach is what I did after reaching the point where it seemed she has dug in her heels and was not really moving towards a workable solution. That's the point where it seemed I had just 3 options:
1) accept a low sex existence
2) cheat
3) divorce

I realized option 1 would not be a long term solution. Sure I am skilled at masturbation, but for me, that doesn't work long term.
So that leaves options 2 or 3. Now, in either case, wouldn't it be better for me to actually be honest and tell my wife before I actually go out and cheat, or file for divorce? Seriously, those were my only options. And I thought, why not just tell her before I go do it? What's the worst that can happen? I was already planning to implement either 2 or 3, so worst case is .... 2 or 3. Best case? She finally hears my message and snaps out of the fog. And that's exactly what happened!


----------



## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> If you want a raise, but let your boss know that's you're not going to leave your job if you don't get it .............................


A more accurate analogy:

You start out in a job earning $80K which provides a comfortable living, so you commit to this employer on a long term basis. Then the employer starts reducing your pay, eventually you are down below the poverty line and your income is no longer sustainable for you. 

Now you go and let your boss know that you realize times are hard but you need to earn at least $70K and are prepared to continue doing an honest days work at that amount. And if the boss can't pay that, you will need to take on a second job at the company's #1 competitor that can meet your income requirements, and may reduce hours at your current job. You don't intend to quit, but if the boss does not like the terms, s/he can start the termination process to fire you.

I would not call this an ultimatum or threat. I would say this worker is being honest with a boss who has changed terms to an unsustainable level without the worker's consent. This analogy matches my approach.


----------



## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

tommyr said:


> Not weak. Not an ultimatum. Not semantics.
> 
> It was HONEST.
> 
> ...



We're not disagreeing. You would have been fine with an open marriage. I'm glad it worked out! Kudos. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> Agree with everything except the bolded. I'd recommend you don't actually say this to your wife. It is only going to undermine trust. You may get more sex, but you won't get a good marriage.





rich84 said:


> Yes, after reflection I agree fozzy. Maybe I got ahead of myself. I do wholeheartedly think he should internalize that mantra. Unless he's actually willing to go nuclear, then his talk and ensuing expectations will be of zero value (weak sauce) if she doesn't begin to more actively work on this as their problem. There's got to be a plan. A lot of guys say that they would jet if only it weren't for the kids, the finances... But they have very little power to actually destabilize anything. She should probably feel the pressure: "My man is attractive, confident, a real catch to others, and he's willing to leave me to find a more satisfying partnership." It doesn't have to be said, just perceived through his action.
> 
> However, after the talk... If he is approaching his drop dead date, I do think there's a place for that piece of info to be shared. Unfortunately, it's more of a courtesy about the impending divorce than any real effort to fix things. But finding one's happiness independently of one's spouse, getting a life, and continuing to remain calm, content, etc. in the face of rejection looks a lot like marital contentment. Increasing levels of distance and disinterest may be the only clues.
> 
> ...


Prior to counseling with a sex therapist, I made a promise to myself to be in a loving relationship by a certain date. That date was over a year away. In my State, there is up to a 6 month waiting period between when the court decides and the divorce is finalized. Part of that is so that legal notice can be given to creditors and the have time to work out any financial details. So in reality the pin on the grenade would be pulled in less than a year, but I never once said that. 

I also only told that to my wife, when we were in the sex therapists office, so she could negotiate and control the emotions. I expressed it not as a threat, not as trying to manipulate my wife, but as a promise that I had made to myself and that I intended to do everything in my power and under my control to make that woman, be my wife, but I couldn't do it alone. So it was honest, but it was not something done one on one. 

In the Gottman weekend workshop, I learned about emotional flooding and how it makes a person emotionally shut down. Telling someone the nuclear option is going to cause emotional flooding in most people who care about their marriage or who are afraid of change.

Again, have a neutral mediator present. Also it should not be a threat, it should be a promise you have made to yourself that is a change in your life you are making, with or without her. Hopefully that the time this comes out, you will have demonstrated lots of changes you have made in your life to increase your own happiness so you can life a good life.

Good luck.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

lessthennone said:


> I'm going to give some more background... I've been working on this for over a year. *I've read MMSLP and No More Mr Nice Guy. Lot's of other books as well.* I think I've tried a lot of what was suggested above. I have *done the exercise thing, but I prefer endurance stuff *to weights. I should mention, I've always been fit. Not beefcake fit, but nobody tells me I look out of shape. The point is, I've changed my behavior a few ways. I'm not doing the same thing and expecting different results. I've tried a bunch of stuff. I'm in the midst of a new effort, but I have to wait for the appointment.
> 
> I did try the destabilize thing, and more recently started counseling. I'm still waiting for our first session together. A 6 weeks wait.
> 
> ...





lessthennone said:


> I do have a side question... Is it bad for me to try and discuss this before our counseling appointment?
> 
> I've said to her that if she gets some stuff in order, then maybe everything else will fall into place. *She kind of threw that in my face, but maybe she's right. *We shouldn't discuss this until hopeful some of the stuff starts to fall into place.
> 
> Or should we discuss it because we're married and *the counseling will only last an hour *and we need to figure out how to talk about stuff ourselves?





lessthennone said:


> *We discussed the love languages a few weeks back. She was affirmation, service, and gifts. When pushed, service was her #1. *
> 
> If I waited for her to initiate, I'd never get it.


I few things. I too am into endurance events, ultralight backpacking, century bike rides, half marathons, so I understand what you are saying. You don't need to be Mr. Universe or have 6 pack abs as part of GAL. You need to find things that bring you happiness. Exercise in about any form is an anti-depressant that will help improve our mood, self-confidence, and energy level. All of that is good and important. Do some endurance things were you bring home finisher medals for your endurance events so she can take pride in your accomplishments.

DROP YOUR ANGER! If you don't do it now, your counselor will hand you your head about that if they are any good. 

You keep talking abut "excuses" your wife gives you. Read the following very carefully. THEY ARE NOT EXCUSES TO YOUR WIFE, THEY ARE REASONS TO HER. Your wife has a lot on her plate that would stress out a lot of women. Maybe she isn't dealing with it the best she can, maybe she needs to prioritize things differently in her life, but she may not have the skills to do that. Hopefully your counselor will help her with those things, but they are still reasons to her. If you dismiss them as excuses, she will know it and resent you. Listen to her, really, really listen. Give her the benefit of the doubt. Try to work with her, but let the counselor take the lead. 

If my spouse said to me the things you told your wife, I too would be pissed. Sex is boring. She probably feels she is a sex failure and your statements are just feeding that feeling on her part in a way that makes her probably not even want to bother to try. Ours spouses know what we are thinking and react to it, even if the words don't come out of our mouths. We communicate by a lot more than language, including facial expressions, body language, tone of voice, etc.

One of the things that I asked my sex therapist was what should I do if my wife doesn't do the reading or exercises the sex therapist recommend for us between session? The sex therapist told me that I should do nothing, as I am not my wife's boss or mother, I am her partner. I need to let the sex therapist handle that and she will and she will remind my wife that my wife will need to live the consequences of her actions and in actions, even if that means divorce. The sex therapist told me that I am absolutely not to fight with my wife over any of the exercises the sex therapist hands out, I am to only support my wife in those things when my wife seeks my support. IN SHORT.......GOOD COP; BAD COP.

Finally, there is a huge different between reading books and learning from them. You may have read NMMNG, but did you really get it? I didn't the first time I read it. Actually, it wasn't until I compared it to MW Davis Sex Starved Marriage and see where they were different and the same that things started to click in my mind. And then it was only after talking to people about NMMNG that it finally dawned on me that the only way to insure I wasn't subconsciously doing a covert contract was to do something for my wife as an unconditional love gesture with no expectations at all except as an expression of my love for her. I also learned that I am responsible for my own happiness. Kind of a Last Exit thing, where we make our own hell. If you take a different approach it need not be a hell on earth we create for ourselves.

You say that you wife is an act of service person. Well think about that for a few minutes. She has a mother who needs lots of help, 
the kids take a lot of effort on her part that leaves her stressed out.

Here is a woman who expresses her love by acts of service. Most days she probably feels she expresses her love for everyone around her with acts of service. Does anyone daily perform acts of service for your wife, so your wife feels that her love is seen and reciprocated? Seriously, what things do you do, THAT SHE VIEWS AS ACTS OF SERVICE? What things do you and your kids do that she views as acts of service for her? A lot of people can only express love for so long without any in return before they emotionally shut down. She has a bad back, can you learn massage and give her back massages as an act of service that she will view that way. (Yes just massage, no sex, no covert contract.)

Good luck. I hope that you have a great marriage counselor. Personally we asked our sex therapist to give us 90 minute and 2 hr sessions, because it took a while for my wife to drop her defenses enough to be honest in our sessions. It was more expensive, but much more productive. Let the marriage counselor structure the sessions as opposed to you and your wife coming up with questions to be addressed. You can definitely think of things you want to discuss and bring them up if appropriate, but you are hiring a professional.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is fine if you are willing to end the marriage over sex.

The OP is however not. 




tommyr said:


> Not weak. Not an ultimatum. Not semantics.
> It was HONEST.
> 
> My approach is a course of last resort. After I had tried all the standard advice for many many months: read the NMMNG and MMSLP, done the 180, lifted the weights, gotten into top physical shape, speak fluently in her native love language, all that and nothing seemed to work.
> ...


----------



## flyer (Jun 23, 2014)

I found that actions speak a lot louder than words. 
Most people on here have read my many posts in the past, up to the most recent. You all see what I did to change from sexless to almost 2x a week.
Long story short. I did a drastic 180, literally overnight. It took 11 months for her to catch on. Our daughters (26 & 20) couldn't stand it.

You're welcome to PM me if you like. I'll tell you about it.


----------



## giddiot (Jun 28, 2015)

lessthennone said:


> Well, I wouldn't get divorced over a lack of sex. I'm not sure what final effort means, but if it fails, it's not like I'd stop trying.



Yeah I was that way, never give up the marriage, sex is not that important. Well I have been in a marriage like yours for 36 years. It got much worse the last 5 years, essentially no sex because of back, feet, and many other illnesses. 

I thought maybe the children being gone would help, well grandchildren took the place of kids. So now I have depression, heart disease and Diabetes and my ability to even do it is gone. It really really sucks when you realize it's gone. Please don't do what I did.

I have always been HD, why oh why did I marry a refrigerator.


----------



## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Very interesting reading here. I am hd and my wife is ld. It is no fun.


----------



## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

I might consider ending a year old marriage over sex but not a 25 year one.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

[

I spent a week asking for a handy. I wasn't really desperate for a handy, but I wanted to see that she was willing. Well, despite my hints and then just outright asking, I never got it. She did get hers, though.[/QUOTE]


How did she get hers but you did not get yours?


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

I should point out a few things...

First, I do get some sex. Maybe once a week. I just want it more. So it's not like I'm not getting any. I just have the HD disease where it's all I think about.

Also, she's demonstrated that she can get into it. Sometimes, she turns on a dime even though she was tirned on minutes earlier.

As well, some of her behaviors might not be as bad as others perceive from my posts. Another post I made really went too far. A bunch of commenters made her out to be worse then she was. Then accused me of enabling. That may be true sometimes, but not in all cases. 

A few days ago, we were fighting over intimacy. She was insulted that I said our sex life was boring and unfulfilling. Before we really blew up, the situation diffused and I realized she was wearing lingerie for me. I regreted bringing up the issue, because she was ahead of me. We kissed and made up. We put the kids to bed and came downstaris. The she fell asleep. The same thing the next day. NYE. 

Last night, I got some. It was good. 

So I don't know to take that as she's trying or she's just barely trying. 

So do I take sex off the table when that's what I want? 

Since she tried a bit, shouldn't I give her positive reinforcement?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Once a week and you complain? Try once a month. The only salvation is at least it is good and satisfying. Of course I would love it more frequently but at 65 it is unlikely to happen


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Okguy said:


> Once a week and you complain? Try once a month. The only salvation is at least it is good and satisfying. Of course I would love it more frequently but at 65 it is unlikely to happen


That's why I thought I would point it out. Maybe to tempter some of the more drastic options.


----------



## giddiot (Jun 28, 2015)

Okguy said:


> Once a week and you complain? Try once a month. The only salvation is at least it is good and satisfying. Of course I would love it more frequently but at 65 it is unlikely to happen



Yeah I was twice a month for most of my marriage, it's been at least six months since we did anything now. The problem I had for the longest time is I feared to ask for it because of the rejection and fight afterwards. Rejection tears you down as you know. Now I am not capable of much.

My therapist says she is either all out BPD or along the spectrum. I don't think she is all out. She was molested as a child by her grandfather which causes this. It helped to understand why, I just found that info out last year.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Yea asking is tough but nothing will happen if I don't ask.


----------



## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Sorry about the molestation. That can certainly be a factor


----------



## giddiot (Jun 28, 2015)

We were separated for about six years but stayed married, at our age it didn't make much sense to end it and we got back together. I gave up on expecting anything and quit asking, especially since I can't do much anymore. I am more at peace with it since I don't expect it and all the other things in our marriage are much better.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

How old are you guys?


----------



## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

I think you need to figure out what you really want. Is it quality or quantity? How is the quality of your sex? Do you make sure she comes regularly before and during intercourse or is it more often you using her as a vehicle for your masturbation? If the latter, no doubt she can feel it and it adds to the one-sided nature of the sex equation from the LD wife's perspective and makes it feel like more of a chore or duty than something to really look forward to.

Once a week over the long haul is nothing to complain about in the grand scheme of things. But if the quality from her perspective is not leaving her wanting more you may just be pushing on a string and risking what you have by asking for more. This was actually the tipping point in my case and led me to realize I needed to take a couple steps back before I could take the big step forward.


----------



## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

My wife cums every time. She cums from manual or oral. I always take care of her first and she knows it.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

GoodFunLife said:


> I think you need to figure out what you really want. Is it quality or quantity? How is the quality of your sex? Do you make sure she comes regularly before and during intercourse or is it more often you using her as a vehicle for your masturbation? If the latter, no doubt she can feel it and it adds to the one-sided nature of the sex equation from the LD wife's perspective and makes it feel like more of a chore or duty than something to really look forward to.
> 
> Once a week over the long haul is nothing to complain about in the grand scheme of things. But if the quality from her perspective is not leaving her wanting more you may just be pushing on a string and risking what you have by asking for more. This was actually the tipping point in my case and led me to realize I needed to take a couple steps back before I could take the big step forward.



I would love it if she let me make her cum every time. At this point, it's about one in every 4 times, she'll let me go down on her. She needs hand stimulation as well, but if I start with oral and move on to hand, then I've got a good shot. It's my mouth, but her hands. 3 out of 4 time, she doesn't want it. I wish she wanted it every time. 

Do I want quality or quantity? 

I guess if one got better then the other wouldn't be so bad, but I'd love to improve the quality. She just doesn't get into it. She makes me feel like I'm using her as a tool for my masturbation. I know I was warned not to use her as a tool for that, but it's not because I lie it that way. It's just that she's not so into it. I'd like for her to kiss me and look at me. I may be wrong, but I think she would prefer to watch TV while we're having sex so she has something to do. I often ask if we should turn off the TV. That's my hint that she's not paying attention. If I ask her what she's thinking about, it's something that's completely unrelated to anything I'm thinking about. 

With her back, we are limited to our positions. I'm either spooning her, or on top. Even when I'm on top, staring her in the face, she's doesn't seem to want to kiss. Makes me think I'm a bad kisser.


----------



## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

lessthennone said:


> she's doesn't seem to want to kiss. Makes me think I'm a bad kisser.


Did she used to kiss you and stopped? Has she never kissed you while making love.

Have you asked her why she doesn't like to kiss you?

There might actually be a reason why she doesn't kiss you that is fixable if you know what to fix. You will only be able to fix it if you know.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Did she used to kiss you and stopped? Has she never kissed you while making love.
> 
> Have you asked her why she doesn't like to kiss you?
> 
> There might actually be a reason why she doesn't kiss you that is fixable if you know what to fix. You will only be able to fix it if you know.


She didn't seem to be reluctant to kiss me when we first met. I have to take her word for it when she says this has been an issue since the kids came. But, I don't understand why the kids would reduce passion unless it is truly that she's stressed over them. 

After our son was born, I marked the calendar for the 6 week mark. That was the day. She didn't yet feel comfortable, so we ended up waiting another 2 weeks. 

That's the first hint I remember of her losing the spark. She was never really sexually experimental, but she was open to it up until then. Having the kids did seem to change her opinion of sex.


----------



## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

I received some advice that the only way to regain your wife's sexual trust after years of giving her lame sex is to never again come inside her unless she comes first. Sounds pretty harsh at first but the psychology of it is hard to dispute if it has become ingrained in her that you are always willing to use her as a repository regardless of how things have gone for her. An alternative to taking sex off the table is to refrain from ejaculating when you're having sex - not easy to pull off but after a few times of doing this she will begin to take you seriously that the sex is more than just getting off; it's how you feel connected and stay close to her even when you choose not to come.


----------



## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Or make sure she comes before u enter her


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

I used to ask her to try and come together. That required some more effort on her part and it worked occasionally. It took some persistance from me and I began to feel like I was pushing her. 

Then MMSLP... I'm not responsible for her O, and I stopped pushing. 

People have suggested that I have read but not applied what I've read. I've definately selectively applied it. There is conflicting info between books and scenarios are played out in different circumstances. 

To be honest, it's all so confusing that I think you just have to read the books, understand their premises and apply them as you think appropriate. There really isn't any other way. It's like interpreting conflicting forum posts. I still appreciate all the help, though.

She does seem to prefer it be quick in most cases. If I say I'm not going too fast, she says "Why? Isn't that the point?" So she does look at it different. There have been times I stopped before finishing because it would take too long and she was impatient.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Trying to come together just makes it more difficult really


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Okguy said:


> Trying to come together just makes it more difficult really


Yes and no... First, sometimes she like me going down on her, but she doesn't always come from that. I usually start with that and then she asks me to get inside. Then, if she's up for it, we'll try for simultaneous. I can pretty much come on call, so it's basically about getting her there. 

She doesn't want to try that often, but occasionally.


----------



## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

My point was that making coming together a goal adds stress. If it happens it happens. My wife always comes manually and often orally.


----------

