# The respect of a good friend.



## nosmallchoice

I am just writing this as I need a place to put my thoughts rather than needing advice (but, feedback is always welcome, good or bad), and this forum is a safer haven than other places on the WWW for me. 

As I am venturing out in the world of dating after 8 years of commitment, I am astonished and taken back from what I have encountered thus far. Players that see me as fresh meat, other divorcees that are still tangled up in their own mess. It is discouraging to say the least. 

But, my mind keeps wandering back to "G" (as we'll refer to him). G and I have known each other for years through another mutual friend, and in another lifetime, we may have been soul mates. We trusted each other since the day we met, have always been open with each other and always had mutual respect for each other while enjoying good banter and mutual interests. But, he is also just as much as a spitfire as I am, and we can butt heads - because we're too much alike. G lived in my home state 600 miles away.

G was emotionally there for me when things hit the fan with my STBXH. He and I had only been talking occasionally to check in with each other at the time, as good long distance friends do, but he was there for me every day when I told him we were separating. G met me as I rolled into my hometown to help me unload my moving truck, no questions asked, he was just there. Once I was here, though, we both backed off and went back to the occasionally check in with each other. He was involved with the girl he wanted to marry, and I respected that. 

Fast forward 6 months, G and I have been on the outs due to his personal life and how that has affected his relationships. He has been in therapy to face his own demons (he was molested as a child, among other things, sorting himself out), his relationship is over and he has been facing some hard truths about his own family. He knows I am here for him, but he made the decision to shut me out and deal with his issues alone. Life moves on, and if he is as good of a friend to me that I have known him to be, it'll work itself out in due time. 

I checked in on him yesterday as he announced on FB he had gotten into an accident, and it wasn't an April Fool's prank. We talked, caught up, it was short and sweet. The farewell is what I keep getting stuck on. 
Me: "Alright, until next time, best to you."
G: "Same to you. We will meet again."
Me: "I hope that is a promise."
G: "yes."

As I reflect on it this morning, I realize how much I miss having him in my life. But, I can't deny how much I respect that he is taking the time to fix himself, and while it is forcing distance between us, giving me the space to work through my own emotions. I realized today that he is the only one that knows my story, history and inner feelings of all my friends and family; he probably knew me second best after my STBXH. I am so sad that I don't have him to lean on right now, but I know it is for the better of us both. I just hate having to wait it out.


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## nosmallchoice

Shooboomafoo said:


> Funny, how a man from the past can get in the way of a marriage. My exwife kept several "old flames" in her back pocket, occasional "friends" to catch up with.
> Must have been a lot more there, because as soon as my ex concluded that I was the source of all her problems, there were two of these "past friends" readily available to immediately jump right in. Now, one of them is living in the marital home with my ex and my kid.
> By what you wrote, it sounds like you have feelings for this other guy "G", and made it all to easy to dump your husband (not knowing his faults in the marriage), but I can bet it sure didnt make for a desire to get into counseling and make the marriage work,,, I mean, why not, since so many options are available to you.
> 
> Please do let people know you are still married, whilst out "dating" in the "dating pool"...


Please do me a favor and catch up on what my story is before you jump to conclusions, will you? 

My STBXH left me for another woman. I did make an attempt to work it all out, but the requirement was he had to cut relations with her. Instead of taking me up on my offer, he moved out to live with her. The offer he had on the table was that we attended counseling and he cut ties altogether. He wouldn't agree. The second offer was he cuts ties for 6 months while we attend counseling, because they were "just friends" afterall, so surely she would understand he needed to focus on his marriage. He refused that offer as well.

G and I were never old flames, and we were good friends at best. We talked every so often, but we also gave each other respect and space for our individual relationships. Yes, a man and woman really can keep sex out of the equation if they both choose to respect each other enough. When G helped me unload the moving truck, it was all business and he then went back home to his life and his girl. He didn't even give me a chance to buy him lunch for his help.

And, yes - anyone I have shown interest in dating knows my situation up front. My divorce paperwork is in a settlement phase as we speak, and it won't be long before the paperwork is signed.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

*nosmallchoice:*
It's GREAT that your friend is taking time to FIX himself so he can have healthier relationships (family, friends, significant others, co-workers) from here on out! Although you miss him, you KNOW it is in the best interest of both of you to have him concentrate on his problems. Think of all the people who NEVER fix themselves and just run from relationship to relationship trying to cover up their feelings instead of dealing effectively with them! Kudos to him.

If you have NOT done so yet, now would be an excellent time for you, also, to address your issues. If you believe therapy would benefit you, you should look into it. Books, too, may be a way to help you address problems. There are numerous titles suggested here on TAM as being extremely helpful in dealing with codependency, manipulative people, fighting fairly, financial knowledge, sexual problems, step-parenting, coping with infidelity, overcoming an abusive childhood, etc. 

However, if your work on yourself is mostly completed, then you (above all others) DO understand the importance of encouraging him to stay the course and make his life better through better knowledge of himself!

~SGW


*Shooboomafoo:*
Not EVERYONE dumps their spouse because they've got their eye on someone else OR because they already have someone else lined up! And, counseling is NOT the solution for everyone. We don't even KNOW the story of nosmallchoice and her ex-spouse, but you're ready to believe that he was a GREAT guy with a few bad habits, she was too selfish and lazy to even TRY to fix it....blah, blah, blah. You're MINIMIZING her experience because YOU feel you got shafted by your ex-w.


ETA: Apparently while I was typing, you came back, nosmallchoice! Well, I'm going to leave my post as I think the point needs to be made CLEARLY.


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## ExisaWAW

NSC, well, my $0.02 is to not date at all right now. After being in a relationship for 8 years, getting into another one so soon is a recipe for disaster. A good general rule of thumb is to wait 1 year for every 5 of the relationship/ marriage. Many people laugh at that and claim it's way too long. I think it makes great sense if you want to completely heal and not bring baggage into the new relationship. I was married for 12 years and I'm totally ok with waiting close to 3 yrs of taking it slow. I think it' makes more sense to rediscover who u r as a person, get involved w/ a church, take up some hobbies, etc. before getting into another close relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nosmallchoice

SGW - Thank you for the feedback. I have casually done counseling (didn't have insurance until just now) and have done a lot of therapy with others that have been in a similar situation - marriage ends abruptly with the birth of a child. As of this week, I do have some of the recommended books on order and will be reading those as well. Ironically, one of the men I have been in contact with (one that was looking solely for a notch in his belt, nothing more - and, I didn't give it up to him), actually gave me some very constructive feedback on my current attitude and how I was projecting my inner feelings onto men I am newly meeting. It was eye opening, and I appreciated that he shared that.

I have been encouraging G to face his demons for a long time. Two years ago, he lost two significant family members and became guardian of his minor siblings (big age gap between them) in the matter of 30 days, and that was the point that he realized he couldn't handle the flood of emotions on his own. I encouraged him to start therapy then and continue it as long as he needed to, and he has been doing just that. I am so proud of him for taking action rather than making excuses.


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## nosmallchoice

Exisa - your advice is not going on deaf ears, and I thank you. My only objective with the concept of dating was to fill the void of loneliness, having that person that I can share my day with. I actually shut down my online accounts yesterday, though (see my last post and advice I mentioned) and am going to try to focus more on re-establishing myself as a person. I just wish I had a better way to shake off the loneliness issue.


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## nosmallchoice

Shooboomafoo said:


> "Please do me a favor and catch up on what my story is before you jump to conclusions, will you?"
> 
> Went by what was posted, and OH BOY look at the heroes jumping at the fking bit.
> 
> SO your husband was a cheater.
> 
> Point taken.
> 
> I also hope that SLOW was able to feel good about herself.


What was posted was about a good friend that I have, someone that has been here for me at a time I needed it but is now on hiatus to work on himself. You jumped to the conclusion that the person was there for a more intimate reason and then scolded me for it, and accusing me for leaving my marriage for him. That is projecting your experience on to me.


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## Shooboomafoo

It sounded like this "G" guy just had allllllll the things your STBXH didnt. That made it sound like you were romanticizing him, and if the marriage was strained at the time,,(not knowing your husband was a cheater and had already left), I merely warned thru the use of my own experience, that this dude "G" could be making it all too easy to jump ship. You are still married for christsakes, does that not even bother anyone anymore on a self-personal integrity level??

Its too bad your husband couldnt have been your "good friend"...


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

nosmallchoice:

Have you looked into meet-up.com? It's a GREAT way to get out and MEET people while doing a mutually-enjoyable activity! It is NOT a dating site! I belong to a group for people who speak French. There are also ones for hiking, kayaking, biking, wine-tasting, singles, history buffs, moms w/small children, bowling, self-defense....you name it, and there are groups of people meeting up to do it!

It helps if you live in a metropolitan area as there will be MORE options (and more times).

Look them up online....it's cheap (usually $1.00/meeting) and fun, and the people are open and welcoming! Time to meet new FRIENDS, not just new DATES!

Good luck, and I REALLY ENCOURAGE you to try it! Eventually (when you're ready down the road), you may meet someone through one of your groups who shares a hobby with you. Or, you may meet someone special through one of your new FRIENDS!


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## ExisaWAW

I understand the loneliness, trust me. Surrounding myself with friends and people from church has been helpful. I have two little girls that are my entire life, so that helps too. I've been divorced for 11 months and I could definitely see waiting another year. Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shooboomafoo

Meet-up.com in my neighborhoods consist of a hundred 40+ guys and about three women.

The really really FUN ones are for people 30 and younger as stated on the website..
Geez, Im destined for a cave and a plastic bag for a friend.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

> Shooboomafoo:
> You are still married for christsakes, does that not even bother anyone anymore on a self-personal integrity level??


I am NOT picking on you, merely pointing out that not everyone has your same outlook nor moral compass.

Some of us see nothing wrong with dating before the divorce decree is signed. That is our perogative. Others believe it is 'adultery' if someone dates before the divorce decree is signed. That is their perogative.

I don't tell other people how to live, what values to hold, whether or not to be a believer or an atheist, how to vote politically, how to live financially, etc......and I don't allow others to tell me (an adult) how to live, either.


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## nosmallchoice

Shooboomafoo said:


> It sounded like this "G" guy just had allllllll the things your STBXH didnt. That made it sound like you were romanticizing him, and if the marriage was strained at the time,,(not knowing your husband was a cheater and had already left), I merely warned thru the use of my own experience, that this dude "G" could be making it all too easy to jump ship. You are still married for christsakes, does that not even bother anyone anymore on a self-personal integrity level??
> 
> Its too bad your husband couldnt have been your "good friend"...


Actually, G doesn't have everything my STBXH didn't have ... :scratchhead: 
The correlation between G and I were similar background and upbringing. We both had horses, lived a country lifestyle, have similar values and opinions, and mutual friends. My STBXH also had similar values and opinions, but we had a lot of fun together and were literally best friends. That is why I am struggling so much. My STBXH and I never dated - the day we met, we were just together and stayed that way moving forward. I miss having that best friend role in my life, and it can't be my STBXH. G knows a lot about me because he cared to find out at some point in time along our friendship, but he continued to live his own life, have his own relationships and be his own person. 

Why is it so hard for you to accept that two people really can respect each other enough to be friends?


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## Shooboomafoo

Slow,
Theres a big difference between suggesting a different thought pattern, and "telling someone how to live".
One is about caring.


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## nosmallchoice

Thanks, Exiswa. 

SGW - Signed up for meetup groups on Saturday, but I have the unfortunate realty of small town + terrible work schedule. They meetup groups sound promising (signed up for a 30's group, outdoors, and mom's group) and they have events planned .. but they all conflict with my current work schedule.  I am holding hope that my dept manager will be improving the schedule as promised, but I am at his mercy right now. My PTO has to be reserved for court hearings (I have to travel 600 miles for some of them), so I can't even schedule time off for events yet.


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## nosmallchoice

Shooboomafoo said:


> Slow,
> Theres a big difference between suggesting a different thought pattern, and "telling someone how to live".
> One is about caring.


At this point in time, my marriage is a legal technicality. I am not sleeping around, I am not doing random hook ups or even in a relationship. I am entitled to be social, have friends and meet new people. I feel my moral compass is just fine for my belief structure.


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## Shooboomafoo

nosmallchoice said:


> Why is it so hard for you to accept that two people really can respect each other enough to be friends?


From the sound of it we all ought to pitch in and buy you a plane ticket to home. I wish I had someone like your "G", except I wouldnt want something that great to be platonic only.

The reason why it is so hard for me to accept that two people can only be friends (man/woman) is because I have never seen it happen without there being something more to it. Yes, that circumstance was the absolute downfall of my own marriage, because my ex kept those kinds of "Friends" around, always saying the exact same thing to me about them, and even calling me silly for thinking otherwise, as if my concerns were based in raw jealousy and unfair condemnation... 
Well, that cleaned my clock, I shut up about them after that..
But then,,, there were pages after pages of cell phone calls to the same "Friend".. 
Sorry to have insinuated that yours was the same kinda deal, but surpressed... Sounded like my ordeal in the waiting...
Your post sounds like there is more to it on your end. (not a bash, just saying) and I would prefer you were happy with someone like "G". Shoot, I would prefer that I was happy with someone like that...


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

> You are still married *for christsakes*, does that not even bother anyone anymore on a self-personal integrity level??


Okay! But *that* is not 'caring', *that* is judgmental...no matter how many ways you slice it! And *that* is what my comment clearly referenced.


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## nosmallchoice

Shooboomafoo said:


> From the sound of it we all ought to pitch in and buy you a plane ticket to home. I wish I had someone like your "G", except I wouldnt want something that great to be platonic only.
> 
> The reason why it is so hard for me to accept that two people can only be friends (man/woman) is because I have never seen it happen without there being something more to it. Yes, that circumstance was the absolute downfall of my own marriage, because my ex kept those kinds of "Friends" around, always saying the exact same thing to me about them, and even calling me silly for thinking otherwise, as if my concerns were based in raw jealousy and unfair condemnation...
> Well, that cleaned my clock, I shut up about them after that..
> But then,,, there were pages after pages of cell phone calls to the same "Friend"..
> Sorry to have insinuated that yours was the same kinda deal, but surpressed... Sounded like my ordeal in the waiting...
> Your post sounds like there is more to it on your end. (not a bash, just saying) and I would prefer you were happy with someone like "G". Shoot, I would prefer that I was happy with someone like that...


I am so sorry your ex treated you so terribly, no one deserves that. 

At this point in time, I can say G is a platonic friend and only a platonic friend. I do miss his company as he is a fun person to talk to and joke around with. I feel lucky in the respect that I have had a chance to know him for who he is, and that is ultimately why I miss his company. But, that is all it is for me. I do appreciate your feedback, though.


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## Shooboomafoo

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Okay! But *that* is not 'caring', *that* is judgmental...no matter how many ways you slice it! And *that* is what my comment clearly referenced.


Well yes. Judgemental of a collective idea, not of the person.. 
I hope to join the dating pool again sometime, but I am noticing a lessened importance as people discuss the matter, towards marriage and I guess I have old fashioned ideas.. Not that they are "good" ideas.
I watched my ex get ready for dates with her OM "just a friend", months before our divorce was scheduled, and I was still living at the marital home, sleeping in the same marital bed. 
She wore clothes and jewelery and make-up like she would never wear around the house or when we would go out.. 

I am battling with where that line is. The one between where it is just "my old fashioned romanticized ideas of a relationship" versus what appears to be a relaxed nonchalance towards it.

But seeing how well that has served me in my own house, I ended up just being the dumba// left holding the bag..


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## nosmallchoice

Shooboomafoo said:


> Well yes. Judgemental of a collective idea, not of the person..
> I hope to join the dating pool again sometime, but I am noticing a lessened importance as people discuss the matter, towards marriage and I guess I have old fashioned ideas.. Not that they are "good" ideas..


The concept of marriage and the concept of "hook up nation" are two different ideals, and each have their place.

Because of situations like your ex and my STBXH, the concept of marriage is no longer appealing to me for the financial impact. In the past 3 months, I have already dropped $10K on legal fees, and the bill is only going to keep climbing. It wouldn't be quite that large had we not been married, and even significantly less had we not had a child. 

This same thought process goes for all the divorcees out there that have gone through the same. 

Meanwhile, we have the idea of hooking up at our fingers tips. Dating sites like POF and ******* allow us to meet up with other members anywhere we go with their mobile apps. Dating, in the pre-cell phone era sense, no longer exists. From what I have heard and understand (through the communication of a single parents group on FB I am a member of), many women out there that share your morals regarding dating are taking themselves out of the dating pool until their kids are older just because they have given up on the idea that they can meet someone that is a true human and no looking for just sex.


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## Jellybeans

It sounds like you have feelings for G.


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## nosmallchoice

Jellybeans said:


> It sounds like you have feelings for G.


I do, as a good friend. I am not going to argue it further than that because I don't see the point, but as a good friend that he has been to me, I care about him. I have never considered otherwise with him.


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## vi_bride04

I had a good friend like this....he turned into my boyfriend, lol


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## nosmallchoice

vi_bride04 said:


> I had a good friend like this....he turned into my boyfriend, lol


There are many reasons why this wouldn't happen in my case.


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## Chuck71

At first I pondered a comment but.......I'll pass LOL


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## nosmallchoice

Chuck71 said:


> At first I pondered a comment but.......I'll pass LOL


You're halfway there by posting a message.. please, do tell.


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## Freak On a Leash

nosmallchoice said:


> As I am venturing out in the world of dating after 8 years of commitment, I am astonished and taken back from what I have encountered thus far. Players that see me as fresh meat, other divorcees that are still tangled up in their own mess. It is discouraging to say the least. .


:iagree: :lol: :rofl: That's for sure! :slap:


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## nosmallchoice

Well..

My trust issues got the better of me. I flaked on out this friend, sabotaged the relationship pretty good and probably won't have much contact with him moving forward.

It was seriously almost like a anxiety reaction. He and I were supposed to have dinner together Monday, and he blew me off without contacting me about it. His blow off was his nephew was born, but he casually didn't contact me to let me know and he didn't think much of it. I was already having mood swing issues from a medication I started this week and just received my STBXH's settlement counter offer that was over the top, and then was put in the middle of a bad fight with my roommates later into the night. I couldn't handle the anxiety of the combined situation, and it resulted in sending a nasty email and said good bye - killed just about all methods of contact with it. As soon as I did that, a sense of relief came over me. I wasn't myself at all, and this doesn't make sense to me. It was almost like I was observing my behavior while I did all this, and just couldn't stop or reason with whatever took over the functioning part of my brain.

I suppose therapy is in order to address my issues. I am psychologically aware, I know where my problems stem from - My mother abandoned us when I was 6, and then when I met her again at 21, she was sure to blame her leaving on us kids.  Step mother died when I was 12. I have a sense that anyone close to me will up and leave; no one is reliable.

Talking to my father about it, he pointed out that I have always sabotaged relationships with those that I felt close to. He regrets not getting me help for it when I was younger. The only relationship I didn't sabotage was that with my husband; he was the sure bet that wouldn't walk out on me or abandon me, it wasn't in his nature. (yeah, so much for that..)

I feel terrible. I am not sure how to pick up the pieces on this. There are no take backs in the game of Life.


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## Shooboomafoo

Its inconceivable to not call when a date was planned. Babies come all the time, it wasnt as if it suddenly rendered his fingers paralyzed. Hmmph. Seems thoughtless at the least. But my own trust issues probably would give little room for tolerance. 
Give yourself permission to feel anxiety, and sadness, but also, recognize and shine a light upon those moments that are genuinely good. They do come, albeit very hard to notice with all the chaos going on. You seem to be reacting as rationally as anyone else does during such a tough time, so dont beat up on yourself. 

Dont rush, and pace yourself.
Give yourself permission to feel everything, and be your own personal caretaker. You have a right to feel all these ways.

Plenty of time for all of these things to iron out.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

nosmallchoice:

If he is the GOOD FRIEND you say he has been for YEARS, then don't you think at some point DOWN THE ROAD...he will UNDERSTAND and forgive the outburst? Especially when you discuss it and explain the strains you were under! It's not like he's skipping through the roses himself! He, of all people, should 

look at the past you two have together
recognize the strain you were under
acknowledge his OWN part in the debacle
be willing to let bygones be bygones
Let it ride for now; there may very well be an opportunity in the future to right this relationship!

We all hope so for the sake of a very old and dear friendship!


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

> Shaboomafoo:
> I watched my ex get ready for dates with her OM "just a friend", months before our divorce was scheduled, and I was still living at the marital home, sleeping in the same marital bed...
> 
> I am battling with where that line is. The one between where it is just "my old fashioned romanticized ideas of a relationship" versus what appears to be a relaxed nonchalance towards it.


I am sorry your wife was a back-stabbing, lying, cheater! That does suck! I can only speak for MY values, what works for ME.

Once I agreed to marry my STBXH, I already felt married to him. I felt that I owed him the same honesty, integrity, loyalty, duty that I would owe him as my husband. The INTENT to be married was there; I did not NEED a government/church functionary to officially sanction OUR CHOICE. THAT was a mere FORMALITY. In my mind, we functioned as though already married.

Conversely, once I informed my STBXH that I was leaving him and divorcing him, I already felt divorced from him. I moved expeditiously to get out of the house. Once I left the house, I no longer felt I owed him the honesty, integrity, loyalty, duty I owed a husband; his behavior had rescinded his right to it. 

Again, I did not NEED a government/church functionary to officially sanction MY CHOICE. THAT is a mere FORMALITY. In my mind, I function as though already divorced because there IS NO GOING BACK to what was. We are finished. I am fixing myself and moving forward. He is now just my "ex" although we may not be LEGALLY DIVORCED for quite some time yet.

I can respect that others feel it is adultery right up until everyone signs on the dotted line (including the judge). I don't agree with them. How expeditiously the government does/doesn't move in these matters, how expeditiously we can/can't come to financial agreements, etc. do not impact the fact that we are SEPARATE and will NEVER be one entity again.

There is no doubt in ANYONE'S mind here at TAM that your wife was a CHEATER. Plain and simple, no fudging the facts; she had an affair that she kept HIDDEN from you for her own purposes.

I intend to make CLEAR to anyone I date (whenever I get to the point of dating), that I am NOT LEGALLY DIVORCED. I would not want to give short shrift to this 'value' when I know it is VERY IMPORTANT to some people. If men choose not to date me because I am not legally divorced, I will respect THEIR RIGHT to choose what is right FOR THEM; just as I expect them to respect MY RIGHT to choose to date BEFORE the actual final date of my divorce is right FOR ME.

*I guess HONESTY would be the KEY you should be looking for*, Shaboomafoo! And I am sorry your ex cheated on you; from reading here on TAM, I KNOW it is VERY HARD to deal with for a long time!

Peace to you! and happiness, too!

*BTW:* I totally get where your previous comment was coming from now! I ASSUMED (like an idiot) that you were exceedingly MORE RELIGIOUS than I and were passing MORAL JUDGMENTS....it didn't occur to me that you spoke from a POV of pain and reality. I'm sorry I didn't try to be MORE understanding and just had a knee-jerk reaction.


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## Shooboomafoo

Oh hey now, no worries! Sorry I came across as self-righteous.
Things are going fine for me lately. 
Its like having several layers of clothing put on to protect oneself. After double-digits of years together, those layers get piled on. 
I am learning, and taking one coat off at a time.


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## nosmallchoice

Shooboomafoo said:


> Oh hey now, no worries! Sorry I came across as self-righteous.
> Things are going fine for me lately.
> Its like having several layers of clothing put on to protect oneself. After double-digits of years together, those layers get piled on.
> I am learning, and taking one coat off at a time.


That is exactly how we move on, one day at a time step by step.

Thank you so much for your input, it is greatly appreciated.


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## nosmallchoice

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> nosmallchoice:
> 
> If he is the GOOD FRIEND you say he has been for YEARS, then don't you think at some point DOWN THE ROAD...he will UNDERSTAND and forgive the outburst? Especially when you discuss it and explain the strains you were under! It's not like he's skipping through the roses himself! He, of all people, should
> 
> look at the past you two have together
> recognize the strain you were under
> acknowledge his OWN part in the debacle
> be willing to let bygones be bygones
> Let it ride for now; there may very well be an opportunity in the future to right this relationship!
> 
> We all hope so for the sake of a very old and dear friendship!



This is what I am telling myself in an attempt to own up to what I did and recognize that he'll most likely be very understanding. 

I was understanding at point in time that he had an outburst with me. Gave him his space, let him sort himself, and he came back around not only with an apology, but explanation as well. I am hoping we're a strong enough friendship that he'll extend me the same courtesy.


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## Freak On a Leash

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Once I agreed to marry my STBXH, I already felt married to him. I felt that I owed him the same honesty, integrity, loyalty, duty that I would owe him as my husband. The INTENT to be married was there; I did not NEED a government/church functionary to officially sanction OUR CHOICE. THAT was a mere FORMALITY. In my mind, we functioned as though already married.
> 
> Conversely, once I informed my STBXH that I was leaving him and divorcing him, I already felt divorced from him. I moved expeditiously to get out of the house. Once I left the house, I no longer felt I owed him the honesty, integrity, loyalty, duty I owed a husband; his behavior had rescinded his right to it.
> 
> Again, I did not NEED a government/church functionary to officially sanction MY CHOICE. THAT is a mere FORMALITY. In my mind, I function as though already divorced because there IS NO GOING BACK to what was. We are finished. I am fixing myself and moving forward. He is now just my "ex" although we may not be LEGALLY DIVORCED for quite some time yet.
> 
> I can respect that others feel it is adultery right up until everyone signs on the dotted line (including the judge). I don't agree with them. How expeditiously the government does/doesn't move in these matters, how expeditiously we can/can't come to financial agreements, etc. do not impact the fact that we are SEPARATE and will NEVER be one entity again.


:iagree: This is and was my point of view as well. When I was emotionally committed to my husband and our marriage I was faithful to him to the end. EVEN when we were separated for over 2 years. I was his wife, he was my husband and dating wasn't an option. 

However, once I made up my mind in my heart and mind to divorce him that changed. I filed very quickly after I informed him I wanted a divorce and the legal proceedings were merely a formality. I did not and have not dated anyone since then but it's only because the opportunity hasn't come up. Had it come up once I'd gone and moved forward on the divorce proceedings I would've gone ahead and done so. 

I don't want another committed relationship at this time. Unlike many, I'm not lonely and don't require another person in my life. I have friends, my kids, hobbies and enjoy my time alone. My plate is full. But if I were to meet the right person then I'd be into dating and I don't fault anyone who feels ready and wants to do so at the same point in their lives. 

I'm already divorced but I'm a rarity. My divorce took less than 3 months and cost less than $300. Most of my girlfriends now and the people I meet who are going through it are counting off the the time not in months but in YEARS and are spending thousands of dollars in legal fees with no end in sight. I know people who filed 3 years ago and are still not close to being divorced. 

Are you going to tell me that you should wait YEARS after filing to move forward with your life and become a happy and fulfilled person? That's ridiculous. IMO, once the die is cast then it's done but everyone has their own path to take. What's not good is for someone to impose their own values on someone else because everyone's situation is their own and only they can best judge what course of action to take with regards to their life. 

BTW, I have had MANY male friends over the years, remained faithful to my husband and my conscience is clear. It is very possible to rise above one's base instincts and act in a moral and correct manner. It's one of the things that sets us as human beings apart from animals. 

I also see nothing wrong with how the OP has conducted herself. If I understand this all correctly SHE was the one who was cheated on. Why is SHE being condemned for simply wanting the friendship and emotional support of an old friend? :scratchhead: To me that's a VERY human and understandable response. When you are hurting, you look to those you care about for support and friendship. Her actions and feelings make complete sense to me and are separate from what's happening with her divorce. 

Her marriage is done and over with in everything but the legal degree. She's trying to move on and the last thing she should be is condemned for trying to reconnect with an old friend. I've been doing the EXACT same thing myself and find it very gratifying to have both my old and new friends here for support and companionship. No one should be denied that or condemned for desiring and seeking it.


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## Freak On a Leash

nosmallchoice said:


> This is what I am telling myself in an attempt to own up to what I did and recognize that he'll most likely be very understanding.
> 
> I was understanding at point in time that he had an outburst with me. Gave him his space, let him sort himself, and he came back around not only with an apology, but explanation as well. I am hoping we're a strong enough friendship that he'll extend me the same courtesy.


Your friend obviously has a LOT of issues and I don't think it has much to do with you at this point. It sounds like he's going through a personal emotional crisis and is confused, insecure and fearful of any commitment. He needs to get grounded mentally and emotionally. He has nothing to give you because he has so little strength within himself. An emotionally unstable person doesn't have the ability to emphasize or give to another person, even to those he supposedly cares about. 

He needs space and time to work through his own issues. Hopefully he is doing just that. I'd just let him know that you are there for him. Feel free to apologize and explain yourself but know that you are doing so to clear your own head and heart. If he fails to show the proper response it's probably because he's unable to at this time. 

Unfortunately he just can't be the friend you want if he's going through an emotional crisis. I know what he's going through. I've been there myself. When you feel so bad about yourself you tend to turn inward and actually sabotage your friendships and relationships out of fear that you might get hurt and hurt those you care about. You'd think that a person in pain would want to reach out to those that say they are there for them but that's often not the case. Often they do the opposite and run away. Kind of like a sick or wounded animal disappearing into a hole when it's in pain. 

If he gets help and comes through it, then he'll come around. Trust me on this. 

IMO, you need to focus on yourself and rebuilding your life. You've already figured out what a zoo the dating world is! It sounds like you aren't ready for that right now and need to connect with yourself and just enjoy living on your own. I agree that you might want to focus on making friends and building a life of your own. The loneliness will eventually fade as you become happier and better adjusted. You have a lot on your plate, the last thing you need are the complications of trying to start and maintain a romantic interest or relationship. 

Learn to like your own company and do things on your own. It's the best freedom you'll ever have. Once you've achieved it then you are never truly alone.  Good luck and have fun!


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## nosmallchoice

Thank you, Freak. 

Wonderfully written and well thought out. 

... I am going to admit I am a tad jealous over the $300 cost. I'm 6 months into separation and close to $10,000 spent. And, we're not even remotely close to being done.


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## nosmallchoice

Freak On a Leash said:


> Your friend obviously has a LOT of issues and I don't think it has much to do with you at this point. It sounds like he's going through a personal emotional crisis and is confused, insecure and fearful of any commitment. He needs to get grounded mentally and emotionally. He has nothing to give you because he has so little strength within himself. An emotionally unstable person doesn't have the ability to emphasize or give to another person, even to those he supposedly cares about.
> 
> He needs space and time to work through his own issues. Hopefully he is doing just that. I'd just let him know that you are there for him. Feel free to apologize and explain yourself but know that you are doing so to clear your own head and heart. If he fails to show the proper response it's probably because he's unable to at this time.
> 
> Unfortunately he just can't be the friend you want if he's going through an emotional crisis. I know what he's going through. I've been there myself. When you feel so bad about yourself you tend to turn inward and actually sabotage your friendships and relationships out of fear that you might get hurt and hurt those you care about. You'd think that a person in pain would want to reach out to those that say they are there for them but that's often not the case. Often they do the opposite and run away. Kind of like a sick or wounded animal disappearing into a hole when it's in pain.
> 
> If he gets help and comes through it, then he'll come around. Trust me on this.
> 
> IMO, you need to focus on yourself and rebuilding your life. You've already figured out what a zoo the dating world is! It sounds like you aren't ready for that right now and need to connect with yourself and just enjoy living on your own. I agree that you might want to focus on making friends and building a life of your own. The loneliness will eventually fade as you become happier and better adjusted. You have a lot on your plate, the last thing you need are the complications of trying to start and maintain a romantic interest or relationship.
> 
> Learn to like your own company and do things on your own. It's the best freedom you'll ever have. Once you've achieved it then you are never truly alone.  Good luck and have fun!


Freak, fantastic insight. Thank you for chiming in.

The friend is going through what he has to go through, and he is heading his own inner battle while I take on my demons. We both have a history of sabotaging relationships - his due to trauma as a child, mine due to abandonment as a child; both equally bad. I thought I had a grip on myself, but apparently I don't have myself as in check as I thought I did.

That said... He checked on me tonight to make sure I was ok. Not only did he know my actions were in response to my emotional roller coaster, but he also explained that he was expecting me to hit this point at some time because of how much I have been dealing with these past several months. He and I had only reconnected for a couple days when this hit. I cleared the air, apology accepted, and I explained what he did that hit one of my triggers. He promises not to make that mistake again. And, life goes on. 

I am on the path to rediscover myself and restart my life, but I am caught in a holding pattern. My legal expenses are out of control, so I don't dare sign a lease so that my son and I can live alone for a while. I am literally stuck in a roommate situation until my legal expenses calm down, and the roommates that I have are less than 1 year married and could be considered a disaster. They are in counseling to work through their problems, but it is a work in progress. I am staying with them because they are family and I can afford it. I know my son won't be in danger, and they are flexible with me on due dates.


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## Freak On a Leash

nosmallchoice said:


> ... I am going to admit I am a tad jealous over the $300 cost. I'm 6 months into separation and close to $10,000 spent. And, we're not even remotely close to being done.


Why so costly and long? You have property? Assets? Alimony and child support are an issue?  Many times people overcomplicate a divorce when there's no need to. Sometimes it's just unavoidable. 

It's all here: From start to finish. I started this thread on the night I told my ex that I wanted a divorce. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/life-after-divorce/62612-after-2-years-its-finally-going-happen.html

We were separated for over 2 years. He managed to destroy our marriage, our family life, almost took down our business, alienated one of our children and blew through 100K of his inheritance and now claims poverty. He has lost the respect of all of his family and friends. His son loves him but is resentful of the way he is being treated as well. But my ex is a narcissistic fool who is into himself and his own self pity act. I just chose not to deal with it anymore and I take what I can get.

With me, there was no need for lawyers, litigation or anything. 
It was easy because in the end, there was nothing TO fight over. No property,no assets and all the debts are HIS alone and I wanted and needed to get as far away from him and the smoking ruins that are now his life. I also want to make sure my son has a father because it's important that he has one. 

In 3 years our son is 18 and as far as I'm concerned my ex is a nonentity. I gave him a quick divorce because I want and yearn for freedom. I got it and now I'm happy.

Yes, I will admit that it pisses me off that he probably does have cash stashed away. That he still manages to live in a $1300/month apartment, smokes 2 packs of cigarettes/day at a cost of $400/month and spends his days hanging out with his AA buddies and is probably fishing. I might not be done with him yet but for now, he has time to try and get it together. For now.... 

It's just best to realize that banging your head against a proverbial wall just gives you a massive headache. I've always been a pragmatic person and it served me well in this regard. By the time I made my decision to divorce there was very little in the way of pain and hurt. I was spent and done. It was the easiest decision of my life.


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## Freak On a Leash

nosmallchoice said:


> Freak, fantastic insight. Thank you for chiming in.


Glad to be helpful.  I have been both in your shoes and your friends. I've gone through my own personal trauma and fought with and conquered my inner demons. Most of my 30s were my own personal battle that had to be fought. But I won in the end.

Good thing because I had the inner strength to hold it together when my ex husband fell apart. I was there for my kids and put my life together and am in a better place. But it didn't happen overnight. 

I've been where you are in the past 3 years. My advice is not to let it overwhelm you. Don't concentrate on the top of the mountain..just start climbing to that first ledge. Make a list of all that you have to do and check it off. Concentrate on doing each thing, one step at at a time. Eventually you will have gone through the list and you'll look back and think "It wasn't so bad" and feel a real sense of pride and accomplishment. 

My ex has ambushed me and my children's lives not just once, but many times. Every time I've managed to hold it together and come out OK but it wasn't easy. But it was done. 

You'll get there. Remember, the first step in a journey is the hardest one.


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## nosmallchoice

Freak On a Leash said:


> Why so costly and long? You have property? Assets? Alimony and child support are an issue?  Many times people overcomplicate a divorce when there's no need to. Sometimes it's just unavoidable.


I will read your story and take notes. 

My battle is special. Our son was only 5 months when he decided to get involved with another woman. We lived in a house that I had purchased on my credit but we jointly were listed on the deed. The house needed significant repairs, several thousand. On my sole income with my other expenses, I couldn't afford the mortgage, and definitely couldn't afford the repairs. We lived in NC by ourselves, no family and very few friends.

The woman he got involved with is a borderline personality disorder that had suicide attempts as recent (to my knowledge - could have been even more recent, but I don't get those updates) as this past Oct. She latched onto my ex, and any time he gave any other person more attention, she reacted with a suicide attempt. She is an alcoholic, chain smoker, former prostitute, and has a whole rap sheet of poor behavior standards. He is narcissistic. They are, essentially, a "fatal attraction" in the world of psychology. 

I packed everything I could fit in a truck and would be useful (he was notified of everything I was taking) with the help of my sister, and baby and I got out of dodge. I moved 600 miles back home to MI where family and friends lived. I left my job for this. Ex moved into an apartment with her. 

Most of my court expenses have been getting a MI custody order in place that protects my child from his girlfriend. I succeeded - I have a court order keeping her away. This is after 2 attorneys (one in MI, one in NC), 2 court systems, and a lot of battling. However, the order is only temporary because it came out of MI and MI doesn't legally have jurisdiction until April 19. After I filed for custody in MI, he counter filed in NC and tried to have my son taken away. It has been a 600 mile battle in so many ways.

Meanwhile, he refuses to sign the listing papers so I can unload the house. It will go into foreclosure. He thought protecting my credit would be enough to get me to move back to NC.


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## Freak On a Leash

It's amazing. Your STBXH makes MY ex look like a downright saint. :slap:

Here's my unfiltered opinion: Your ex husband is a complete and utter scumbag and he deserves the psychopath he's latched onto. Perhaps you will luck out and she'll kill him while he's sleeping. Or cut his d!ck off. Would serve him right. 

You have done well to move away and protect your child. Hopefully he will have as little to do with his son as possible. I feel for you..I really do. I wish you the best of luck in your divorce and the rebuilding of you and your son's life. 

I think you are handling this beautifully. Keep the faith and if you need us here..we are listening.


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