# No idea what to think



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi all. First time here. Looks to be a great place to get some well-needed advice from people who don't know me or my partner!

Here goes...

My wife and I have been together for almost 14 years now. She was 16, I had just turned 19. We married 7 years ago.

We have an unbelievable relationship, and almost always have. We're so in sync with each other it's almost scary, and people have always envied what we have together.

Over the years, complacency has set in, and we both knew it. To be honest, I was okay with it, as I was comfortable with my life, and she with hers. At least I thought so. We had many a conversation about this over the years. We have ALWAYS communicated in an open and honest way, and we were always trying to find ways to keep things good, and/or improve upon them. We've never had a problem with communication, ever.

The only real issue we've ever had in our 14 years together is our sex drives didn't match. I consider myself average in that department, in that it is something I need in my life, but not in an addictive "gotta have it right now" way.

She has never had a high sex drive. Over the years, we would have passionate moments where it was great, but that was pretty much because the stars alligned that particular day. These times were few and far between, but they WERE there.

Our sex life was certainly not non-existant, it just wasn't as passionate and hot as I hoped for.

It took me years to initially buy into her theory that it had nothing to do with ME, and all to do with her. As in, some people just don't have a high sex drive, or a drive at all for that matter. She constantly told me she found me attractive and that was nothing physically, mentally or emotionally unattractive about me to her. I believed this, and I still do believe this.

4 days ago, she announces to me that for the past year she has discovered a sexual side to her that never existed before, and that it confused her to no end when it happened. She found that she was looking at other men and having sexual feelings for them - wondering what it would be like, picturing herself with them, etc. In essence, the woman who had never experience being "horny", was starting to have those feelings.

The bad part about this is that she realized that she still did not have those feeling towards ME, even though I was not unattractive to her, etc. This confused her, of course, and over the 1 year period that she had been agonizing about this, she came to the conclusion that in order to get these thoughts out of her head, she needed to act on them.

She was pretty clear that her mind was made up, and that she wanted to seperate indefinitely while she dated other men, and to ultimately experience these overwhelming sexual urges she has, and had never had before.

Several thoughts went through my mind. We've been together exclusively since we were teenagers. She had sexual experiences with several people before we met, so she had her "learning" period. However she did not get to experience that period that most people do in their 20's of utilizing what they learned as teenagers and going out and having as much fun as they can before deciding they want to settle down.

We've always been intimate in every other way. We're constantly holding hands, cuddling, etc. We often take baths by candle light, etc etc etc. There's never been an issue with intimacy, just sex.

I totally agree with her on that, and though it upsets me greatly that she wants this, I allow myself to realize that it is necessary.

The most painful part of this is that this is not something she wants to share with me, the person who's been by her side for all these years. I was never willing to throw away my relationship with her for the sake of having "good" sex elsewhere - something that, as I said, has been missing in my life all these years. It was never important enough to me to think about acting up (whether by suggesting we seperate so *I* can have my fun and come back, or by having an affair).

I feel so betrayed by this. I've been through everything with her, and for her, and she has been too important to me to even consider throwing it away.

And now that she's had her sexual awakening, as it were (something that I assumed she would have as she hit 30 anyway - which helped me get through the lack of desire for all those years) she doesn't want me to be a part of it. I would honestly have rather she had an affair that I never knew about, got it out of her system, and moved on.

The most confusing part of all of this, is that she still loves me. This is hurting her as well, but these voices in her head are too loud to control and she knows she needs to do this. I know she knows what we have together is great, and that it's unlikely either of us will ever find someone that we have such a great connection with again. But she's willing to throw it away for the sake of a few months of, what she thinks, will be enjoyable, meaningless dating and sex.

Obviously I'm biased in this (!) but I can't see how ANYTHING is worth throwing this all away for.

Whew.

The advice I've received from friends and family members thus far has been pretty much the same. That she needs to do this, and that she may come back to the relationship afterwards with a renewed energy, and that things will be even better than they were. That she will recognize that we ARE meant to be together, and that will spark a passion for me.

The last few days I've been up and down. I'll think that this is exactly what will happen one minute. The next I'll convince myself that she has already decided that we're over, but she needs to do this to make 100% sure. (I think that's the most logical outcome, unfortunately...) Another minute I'll sit here and think that she needs to do this, but when push comes to shove, she won't be able to go through with it.

She left for her sisters last night, and plans to be there until the weekend is over at least, but does not know when she's coming back. This was at my urging, as she did not want to leave the house. I couldn't bear to be around her, as all I did was attempt to keep talking to her and I feared it was making things worse.

I have expressed to her that because this is her decision, and that she feels she needs to experience other men, that she should not come back to the house until she's made up her mind 100%. If she decides it's not what she wants, then she can come back. If she knows she has to do it, I believe she shouldn't come back here at any point. Personally, I don't have anywhere practical to go, and beyond that, I don't think *I* should have to be the one to uproot my life so she can go through with this. But I know she's going to want to come back in a few days because she's missed her own bed, and the comforts of home. She basically wants to have her cake and eat it too.

I'm not sure what I'm looking for right now, I'm not sure any advice will help. I guess if anybody here has gone through something similar, I'd love to hear how you coped, and what the outcome is. I'm not a particularly negative person, but I think the writing is on the wall, and that this is over. But if anybody has a happy ending to this, let me know!

Thank you.


-Alex


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## Ask Eve (Jan 19, 2008)

I have no doubt your wife loves you very much, she sees you as someone she can talk to, a great friend... but I feel there's no sexual chemistry at all there where she's concerned. It's almost as if she feels the relationship is more one of brother/sister type and even she doesn't understand this. Now that she's maturing she IS starting to notice the opposite sex and have sexual feelings towards them in a way she's never felt with you. She probably knows too how crazy you are on her and in a way takes that for granted, she knows you won't run off to be with anyone else.

Unfortunately, nothing you can do will change her mind about how she's feeling right now. You can give her ultimatums but I don't think that will keep her with you. We all have choices to make in life and if she feels so strongly that she wants to go out and "experience" what it's like to be with another man then you will never stop her. If you tried to, she'd only resent you for it and your relationship would become more distant.

You were right to suggest she move out for a while until she gets her head together. I would let her know though that you ALSO will test the waters out there (even if you have no intention of doing so). This will make her think, to imagine you with someone else instead of remaining faithful only to her! And she might not like that feeling... 

You need to remain strong about this, don't run after her and call her all the time, treat it as a break and above all GIVE HER SPACE... let her miss you and want you again. She may come back and tell you it's the best thing she's ever done and that she knows now she can never get back together with you... OR she will see that the grass is NOT greener on the other side and come back to you with open arms. Until then it's a waiting game. 

I wouldn't wait too long though, I suggest say 3 months. If she hasn't made her mind up by then, then unfortunately it's doubtful if your marriage will last.

In the meantime remain strong, keep positive and busy and keep me informed how things go.

Regards,

~Eve~


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Thank you, that's pretty much what everyone else is telling me, too, so it just continues to confirm it all.

I have already decided to give her her space and not bug her about this. It's hard, but I'm level-headed, and know that the more one bothers the other, the more likely it is that they will not come back. It gets to be an annoyance after a while, and that leads to anger and resentment. And that leads to a decision being made, and not in my favour.

As for me stating that I will go out and date other people while she is doing the same, she is the one that suggested I do that. That speaks volumes to me, so I kind of already know what the outcome of this will be.

I still hold out hope that she does come back, after experiencing what she needs to. It doesn't look good, though, from everything I've heard or read.


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## Ask Eve (Jan 19, 2008)

She's only suggesting you go out and do the same out of GUILT Alex! I don't think for one minute that she thinks you'd ever cheat on her. Besides, if she wants to "experience" then she's got to say the same to you! Maybe if you tell her you agree and you will do the same and 'test the waters' then she might think differently. 

In the meantime don't right off your marriage just yet. KEEP POSITIVE! Reaffirm in your mind that things are going to be okay. Send positive thoughts out to the universe and you'll get positivity back again. Keeping positive thoughts holds a lot more importance than one might think... 

~Eve~


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm definitely trying to be positive. I'm a wreck inside, but everyone I've spoken with about this is amazed that I'm handling this so well. That probably makes me sound like I've resigned myself to the inevitable, which, to a certain degree, I probably have, but I do still have hope.

In any case, I asked her point blank if she's telling me to go out and experience these things out of guilt. She was adamant in that, no, it was not.

I believe her, and I don't. I think she recognizes that if she is to do what she wants to do (in this case date other men) that that offer has to be on the table for me, as well. She respects me enough to not think that she can have permission to do this and that I will wait until she's done it and decides whether she's coming back to me or not.

But on the negative side, I don't believe that she actually does mind if I go out and date, and have sex with other people, and that's also one of the main points that's killing me. She seems perfectly okay with it all and said that if we were to get back together in the future, my being with other people would never affect her in any way.

Problem is, the male ego comes into play here, and I WOULD have a problem knowing she was with other men.

Boy, the more I write these things out, the more I'm starting to realize that she's done with this marriage, and that it seems she wants to keep me as a backup in case her experiences turn out to be not what she thought...


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

tell me about her. she doesn't work? you make a good salary. she doesn't have to worry about things financial. you live in a nice house. nice cars. her family is distant emotionally. consequently so is she. you'd like to see more emotion out of her. describe her personality. it might help in the advice-giving.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Fair enough.

We're both self-employed, do the same thing under the same company name (which can be seperated without affecting the business). We make a decent living, and we have 4-5 hour work days. (!) We own a house which is half paid off after 2 years, and 2 cars. There are zero financial issues, and neither of us are "into" money. Money, to us, is necessary, and we don't strive to make more and more.

Her father was never there for her when she was younger. Workaholic, alcoholic. Never abusive, just not supportive. Her mother is an emotional disaster, and has used guilt as her tool of choice her whole life. Consequently she has used the guilt card over the years to me, which I recognized, resented, but ultimately accepted and didn't allow to get to me.

She's the most caring, passionate person I've ever known. She never wants to hurt anybody, and goes out of her way to make sure it doesn't happen (which is why I think it took her so long to present this to me).

She's a beautiful (and trust me, she's BEAUTIFUL) person. Fit, healthy, in shape, and energetic. Something she wasn't always. When we met, she was a little on the chubby side (which I like, but I digress), and was always conscious of her large chest size. She wore baggy clothing and generally didn't have a great body image.

About 5 or 6 years ago, she became self employed, and the job that she (and now I) do involves a lot of walking. She lost weight immediately and started feeling better about herself. This allowed her to start jogging, then running. Then she was going to the gym twice a week. She now works out every day, and loves it.

This of course has given her a super body image, as she is now fit and active. She started dressing better, spending more time with hair and makeup, etc. Men noticed this, and she liked it. She came out of her shell in a massive way, but never thought of seeing if the grass was greener. As in, I don't believe this is what has CAUSED her to decide she wants to see other men. It's a byproduct in my estimation.

Had she still been a little frumpy and not as confident, she might certainly have WANTED to do this, but wouldn't have brought herself to be able to do it. Now she can.

And I suppose the most important thing that I just realized I left out, is that we spend virtually all day, every day, together. We've both, over the years, realized that this is not healthy, but neither of us really did anything to change this. We were both quite content with being together this much. Until now... In fact, just last year I announced that I was going to join a second sporting team for that season, as I wanted to play more, and it would have the added benefit of a few more hours out of the house a week. She resisted, saying that it would impact things like the chores I have to do around the house. I relented, and stayed with the one team. Note that she never FORBADE me to do it, just guilted me ever so slightly into not doing it.

Also, we both have OCD. She has a more obsessive personality than I do, which I think may not be helping the thoughts she's having. She says she can't turn them off, and that she's tried over the last year, but they just won't go away. When I slipped it in that it might perhaps be her OCD making her obsess about this, she replied that she was sure it wasn't. I'm not so sure.

Does that help?


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

alexm-

I have done a lot of research into married women that go off sex. what I have found is that they don't go of sex itself. They go of sex with their husbands. Some of them know this, and some of them hide the information, even from themselves. The ones that don't hide the information from themselves find themselves attracted to other men from time to time - sometimes intensely. So what is happening with your wife is normal except for two things:

1)She is being honest about her lack of desire for you.
2)She is being honest about wanting extramarital sex, rather than going behind your back.

You marriage is by no means over. What you say to her in the next few weeks will be crucial for your future. The key to getting her back is to be non judgemental. 

What she is going through now feels like a huge explosion in her head and in her body. She is literally having a period of madness, where it seems perfectly natural to her to sacrifice everything in pursuit of her pleasure. If you give her the right sort of acknowledgement, you can help steer her through period which will not last long. If you come down heavy handed, it would be a pyrrhic victory, as her sex drive will just be shut down, and you will certainly not get the benefit of it.

I can tell you more if you want...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Keep going, that is what I need to hear, I think!

Keep in mind though, that the sex drive issue with her is that it was NEVER there. Not for me, not for anybody. Only just in the last year has she had some sort of minor sexual awakening which she absolutely needs to see to fruition. Just not with me.

So it's not like the sex drive for ME dwindled, it actually was never there, period. Her actually having one at all right now is completely foreign to her. And it just doesn't involve me.

>>>You marriage is by no means over. What you say to her in the next few weeks will be crucial for your future. The key to getting her back is to be non judgemental. >>>

By this, do you mean not have an opinion on her wanting to do this? As in, don't say "I can't believe you want to do that" or adversely "I'm okay with you doing that"? Just don't mention it at all?

>>>>you can help steer her through period _which will not last long._ >>>

Also, she's been having these feelings for about a year now. And only just got up the courage to tell me.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Before I get to giving my opinion about what you can do about it, we need to cover why she is not attracted to you. There are two "off the shelf" reasons.

1) A feeling of resentment has built up over the years.

2) You just don't press her "hot" button.

Can you comment?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I agree on both counts. I can't empirically say it's one or the other or both, but certainly can't discount that either one are possibly correct.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

How old are both of you, and are you in good shape?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Me - 33, her - 30. There's nothing physically wrong with me.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

I meant are you reasonably good looking, not over weight etc. Also, what was the frequency of sex, over the years, and in the last year?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm very good looking. Not overweight, but not fit, either.

Frequency of sex has been the same up to last week. Again - it's never been an issue of how often, it's how passionate it wasn't. This was attributed to her lack of sex drive, period.

Let me re-iterate, her entire life she has not had any sex drive. Ever. She's never known what it's like to feel "horny". Until earlier this year, for whatever reason (chemical change, turning 30, who knows?) and it's directed at other people, not me.

It's not an issue of sex as much as it is an issue of she needs to know what it's like to not be in a long term relationship. She needs to know what it feels like to BE with someone else and have fewer responsibilities in her life.

I appreciate your concern, but I believe you're going up the wrong avenue here. That may ultimatly turn out to be wrong, but from what she's said, it's about feeling free again, and not tied down.

Age 16-30 is a long amount of time to be tied down to someone. 16-30 is the age where one should be out having fun with no responsibilites and little consequence. Married life, and to a lesser extent, long term relationship life, is serious stuff.

She's looking to live the life that most people do within that age bracket, and she never did. It's not exclusively about sex.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

alexm said:


> I appreciate your concern, but I believe you're going up the wrong avenue here. That may ultimatly turn out to be wrong, but from what she's said, it's about feeling free again, and not tied down.


Humour me for now, I beg you. You can't listen to her words. It's her actions that count. What you need to do is try to understand what she is going through, but at the same time, you must learn more about yourself, and sexuality. Keep up the dialogue with her.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I feel that there shouldn't BE a dialogue at the moment. She left the other day, and there was no anger or hatred towards each other. She hugged me for several minutes, kissed me on the lips, had tears in her eyes, the whole bit.

We both have gone through sex therapy, we've read every book, we've talked constantly with each other on that subject. We both know about sexuality and all the differences there can be in 2 partners. She's talked me through the actual act, telling me what she wants me to do, how to do it, etc. And it never made a lick of difference. She was convinced that it was her, as, like I said, she never had sexual feelings about anyone else, either.

She once went on anti-depressants for about a month, forget what they were called - they were blue. The pills seemed to have the opposite effect in every way. They made her MORE depressed, almost to the point of suicidial. However she had a sex drive for that entire time that was previously unknown to her. (boy, I should have mentioned THAT sooner...!). We had GREAT sex, that neither of us had ever had before. Even though antidepressants are supposed to be sex killers, they had the total opposite effect on her. She had to get off them though, as all the other effects were incredibly, incredibly negative for her.

She has also been told by doctors before that she has low testosterone levels. Neither of us were willing to have her have injections, as there are numerous side effects that are not too pleasant.

So, even though it was artificial I suppose, it shows me that she is definitely capable of having this passion about me. This leads me to believe that this issue is not entirely about sex, or ME, and more about getting away from the grind for a bit and finding herself.


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## Ask Eve (Jan 19, 2008)

I really feel that she finds her marriage a marriage of "habit". She may feel she's missing out out something else but she can't quite put her finger on what that something else is. It could be seeing if other men find her attractive, what it's like to be intimate and have sex with another man or just to see if she gets a buzz out of being "single" again for a time. I also think she's probably been chatting to her friends about this, maybe hearing about their exploits and she finds her life is pretty boring by comparison. It may be she feels she's just stuck in a rut and wants more out of life than she has now.

She's also never had the chance to miss you, especially as you both work together too and that's not always healthy. The low sex drive is only part of the problem. I think psychologically her mindset feels she's missing out on something and that's why she wants time out... to try to find it. She might, she might not.

It must be heartbreaking for you to let her go like this and keep a stiff upper lip. Deep down you must be gutted! So many questions will be plaguing you, are you just not good enough for her? Does she find you boring? Will she ever come back to me? Am I plan B if things don't work out? Is our marriage over for good and lots more besides. You also must love her very much to let her do this and still be willing to wait for her and try to make a go of things again.

It might be that you and her need to be a bit more spontaneous. If you both do have a bond as strong as you say then there's a good chance that things will work out. Just out of curiosity, what are your star signs? (Could you be a Libra and her a Scorpio?) 

~Eve~


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

it sounds to me like she's adopted the attitude that prevails today. do what you want to make yourself feel good. she wants to have relations with other people, regardless of the consequences. she wants a free pass. i don't see where this can help a marriage at all. she wants what she didn't have earlier in life. that's just not the way it's supposed to work. sorry.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

We're both Virgos. Her late August, me early/mid September. I will ASSUME that two Virgos are not good together! (I think I heard that once...)

Thanks for the kind words. I really am a wreck right now. The fact that I've spent almost all day on the computer is signal #1.

This is the first full day that she's been out of the house, and I don't know what to do with myself. I don't want to do anything. I tried to sleep this afternoon, and after 15 minutes, I had enough. I've tried to watch TV at least 5 times, and that lasts 5minutes each time. I'm a smoker (boooo...) so I've been spending a lot of my time in the garage, where we smoke, destroying my lungs. I've been on the phone with my Aunt for close to 3 hours throughout the day, and she's helped IMMENSELY.

All that said, I'm going through this in the way that I think will help the most. The urge to call her, e-mail her or text her is almost overwhelming, but I've managed to not do so, and I believe I will. I KNOW that if I try to make any contact right now it can only make things worse. She doesn't want or need my input or my blubbering, or my advice.

Honestly, I'm trying to keep things up in the air with her, so there's a little bit of uncertainty on her part. On one hand, I have told her that if she does end up with another man (or men), the odds of me being able to deal with that should she come back are slim. But I've also made it very clear to her that, even though I don't approve, I UNDERSTAND that she has to do what she has to do. It's absolutely killing me, but I know that if I show her some modicum of support, that may plant a tiny seed of doubt in her mind. Whereas if I kick and scream and cry, and generally not leave her alone, the decision will be made that much easier for her to be away from me.

On a related note, but somewhat straying from the basic topic, I've had thoughts all day that I find myself hoping that she DOES go through with finding a man, bringing him home, and that it ends badly. Maybe she just can't go through with it. Maybe the guy turns out to be a real a-hole. Maybe he tries to make her do things that she doesn't want to do and gets upset that she doesn't (for example, she has TMJ, so her jaw will lock if she opens it wide enough. You know what that means she can't do...)


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

voivod said:


> it sounds to me like she's adopted the attitude that prevails today. do what you want to make yourself feel good. she wants to have relations with other people, regardless of the consequences. she wants a free pass. i don't see where this can help a marriage at all. she wants what she didn't have earlier in life. that's just not the way it's supposed to work. sorry.


I somewhat agree with you. I don't believe she's entitled to a "free pass" either, but I do believe it may help the marriage.

I'm a realist though. It's fairly clear to me that it's over. However if she really thought it was over, she would say that, and not feel that she has to explain what she's doing to me.

I believe she's obsessive about this, and if she doesn't act on it in this way, she will do it behind my back eventually. I believe that to be a worse thing to do. At least she has the balls to have told me what she thinks she needs to do, regardless of how it will affect us. At least she didn't take the easy way out.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Just a quick update. I e-mailed her sister, whom she's staying with at the moment to just find out if she's safe. I didn't want to know anything more than that, nor am I entitled to, I think. I was just worried about her safety, which I assume is a normal thing to start obsessing with in cases like this...

After a couple of back and forths, I asked her if she'd be able to talk to me (her sister I mean), if she didn't feel it was inapropriate. She's all up for that, but will ask my wife if she's okay with it before committing.

At this point, I really DO need someone to talk with face to face. The only few people I trust in my life to open up about this at the moment live across the country. I have friends here, of course, but I'm not comfortable opening up to them in this way.

I'm wondering if this will be a good idea or not, to talk with her sister. I will make it very clear that I do NOT want to know what my wife is thinking, and that I don't wish her to be an intermediary between us. I trust her sister to provide me with some guidance and be un-biased, as she's a very astute and honest person. Not to mention she has gone through a similar (though not identical) period in her life very recently.

I'm wondering if it's too soon for me to start talking with someone who's so close to my wife, and if I should just continue to be alone with my thoughts at home for the time being.

I don't know if the outcome of this is going to help me or hurt me.


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## Ask Eve (Jan 19, 2008)

You're putting her sister in one heck of a position here. She loves you and her sister and this will put a lot of pressure on her to remain neutral. You have to remember too that a lot of what you say will go back to your wife.

Incidentally my mom and dad are both Virgo, my mom calls all the shots and is always on at him and he's the laid back one who loves a tidy kitchen lol. They sometimes can't live with each other but they can't live without one another either. They're both very critical and worry about where the other is if a few hours pass and they're not back home together.

If you can continue without talking to her sister then I'd try to do that. Your wife knows you well enough to know you're going to worry, let her "feel" that guilt without saying to the sister that you're okay with everything and giving your consent that it's just something she's got to do. Remember "absence makes the heart grow fonder" so distance yourself, that way she'll do the worrying and wonder if you're okay. Difficult, but in my opinion could be advantageous.

~Eve~


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I think you're very right about that, and I think I already knew that from the start.

It's hard to say this with any confidence, but I am not hoping to see her sister so I can make sure she'll pass on information to my wife to make her feel bad. In fact, I will probably ask her to keep our conversation in confidence and not tell her anything.

I trust her, and she's a very level-headed and intelligent woman, therefore I have no reason to believe that she won't respect my wishes.

I simply need someone to talk to who knows both sides of the story. I'm not interested to know what my wife's been up to, and what she thinks and how she's feeling, and I don't intend on getting this information from her sister. It would be juvenile and unproductive.

What I'm hoping to gain from this is someone who can give me some guidance, and she knows (or will know) both sides of what's going on and be able to provide a much better vantage point for the two of us going forward. It's like we're both seeing a counsellor individually. Like I said, her sister is not the type to go back and blab endlessly about what I told her. She's intelligent enough, and I trust her enough, that she can handle this and won't make things worse. She likes me, if not loves me, and I have zero reason to believe she'd do anything underhanded to get me out of her sister's life.


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## Ask Eve (Jan 19, 2008)

In that case Alex, your sister in law is the right choice. Be sure to stipulate to her what you said above and let her know that you still care for her very deeply but you don't want to talk to your wife directly, give her the space she needs. Your sister in law may be able to give you some advice on the best way to go about things for now and even give you a bit of hope!

~Eve~


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Well, she just e-mailed me back and said the she's willing to meet with me, but my wife had to think about it first. My wife eventually came back to her and said "If you want". Which in spousal-speak means "I'm not okay with it, but don't want to be the bad guy."

I replied and told her exactly what I hoped to get out of it, and that I don't want to use her to get information. I just think it's beneficial that she know my thoughts on this, and that she can keep them to herself.

Plus I really need someone to talk to face to face.


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## Ask Eve (Jan 19, 2008)

At least that way Alex your sister in law can see how you are feeling about this too. You can also reiterate to her that this is your wife's idea and certainly not yours.

Good luck and keep in touch okay?

~Eve~


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Thank you. I'll post the results of our get together later on today, afterwards. I hope it's not a mistake. She's more than willing to come over to see me, knowing that my wife is not 100% okay with it, so I suppose that's a good sign. May not be any help to my wife, though...


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

geeze alex you are handling this like a saint. id be outta there so fast if my H did that to me, well, i think anyway. i think at least you should start seeing other people.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Wow, I don't know what to say.

I'm not a saint.

I think seeing other people would be a horrible idea, and I don't want to. I have hope that this is not over. I recognize that you can't get ALL the details in a forum like this, so one can be quick to say "do this, do that". On the surface, my wife is being made out to be a horrible person for doing this. This was my initial thought when she told me, but I quickly realized that people do things like this because they have other issues.

In this case, she definitely does. I believe I've mentioned some above.

So in her case, I believe, she is running from things that she doesn't want to deal with. She doesn't know what else to do, unfortunately.

I have nothing but undying love for her, even now. I don't feel sorry for myself, but I do realize that this may be over. It may not.

I'm a firm believer in the saying that one knows one's partner better than they know themselves. I know her better than she does. She knows me better than I know myself.

If I'm correct in this, she will be back at some point, in some capacity. She will realize at some point, maybe next week, month, year, or even in 20 years, that the underlying issues that she has is what has brought her to the point of running away, now, and dealing with these issues in the quickest and easiest way possible.

I don't mean to sound condescending, as we all deal with grief like this differently, but going out and seeing other people right now, is not an option for me. It's a rash and easy decision, which is exactly what she is doing, and that's counter-productive.


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## Ask Eve (Jan 19, 2008)

With all due respect to ljtseng, I think going out to meet other people is the last thing you need to be doing right now. Rebound relationships NEVER work and I know you'd only be a damp squib trying to socialise with friends right now. Keep yourself busy though and keep focussed.

How did the meeting go with your sister in law Alex? Did you see her?

~Eve~


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Yes, she came over yesterday. Let me preface this by saying that, although I have known her for 14 years, we never really had any sort of relationship, for whatever reason. Just circumstance, I think. We certainly always loved each other as members of the family, but it was always a little awkward and such. We just never really got to know each other I guess!

After yesterday, we sure know a helluva lot about each other... She's going through her own situation at the moment, not entirely unsimilar to what my wife is going through.

Growing up with the same family, she had the exact same underlying issues as my wife. At a somewhat earlier age, though, she sought help for it (or technically, got help for another issue - divorce - and ended up really working on the MAIN issues that prevented her from seeing the world as one should). Today she is an amazing, confident and caring woman.

Without taking sides (this, we were clear about) she feels pretty much the same as I do, in that my wifes current issue has been brought up by the major ones that she lives with, and always has. She doesn't think she's going through a "phase", however she knows within her heart that her sister is going about solving this problem the wrong way. That meant the world to me. Not so much that someone is on my side, many are. But the fact that her sister, the woman whom my wife moved in with on Friday and now knows both sides of the story, sees things the same way I do, and always has, even before this current scenario.

I went away knowing my sister in law better than I had ever thought I would, and neither of us were afraid to share our deepest darkest things with each other. She surprised me how open she was about things like her sex life, which relates much to my wife. (my sister in law had no sex drive whatsoever, either, and never did until she dealt with the issues at hand that were making her repressed).

So all in all, a very productive chat.

Will probably not make an ounce of difference in the long run, but knowing that she cares about me and isn't taking sides helps me immensely.


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## Ask Eve (Jan 19, 2008)

I'm glad you had a positive meeting with your sister in law. It must be a relief for you that she is on your side but knows what your wife is going through and even more important, hopefully she'll be able to help her through this difficult time, maybe even letting her know (if your wife asks) that in her opinion this is the wrong way to go about it.

She knows now too just how much you love your wife, that you still stand by her even although she wants to "find herself". Could you imagine what it would be like if the sister in law were feeding her and telling her to go and and enjoy herself? She seems far too wise to do that and it should be an enormous relief to you that she's chosen to go stay with her sister.

I see at the end of your post you STILL think negatively about this. Try to stop doing that and instead focus on a POSITIVE outcome okay? Keep me posted.

~Eve~


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Well, her friends are telling her she needs to do this, so yes, it's nice that her sister isn't. Funny how the two people who know her best have the same opinion, and everyody else she's gone to seek advice don't know her the way we do. One of her friends, the main one she's been with recently, has known her for less than 3 months. Ridiculous. But she's obviously seeking the opinions of those who will agree with her.

She also has a friend who started out as her, I guess, counsellor. Somebody who did this professionally, but not in a licensed/registered way. After their initial sessions for an eating disorder my wife had, they became friends. THIS is why one must see licensed people IMO...

Anyhow, she still sees this person on a semi-regular basis, to catch up, but mainly to discuss issues that are bugging my wife at that time. Maybe once or twice a year at most, and never anything major.

Until this... She went to see this woman, after consulting with her friends, and I IMAGINE not being fully able to heed their "advice" that she NEEDS to do this.

Of course, this woman had a way of convincing my wife that she also needed to this. My wife always explains to me that this woman never specifically says "do this" or "don't do that", but more gets her to end up with the solution on her own.

I believe she is leading her. And I don't trust her. And my wife should be able to talk to whomever she wants, however she should not put as much stock into this woman as she does. She doesn't know her the way an actual psychologist would. She's not qualified after two hours of chatting to make my wife believe she has to find herself. It's SO aggravating, but had I brought that up, it would have infuriated her.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Well, it's just gotten progressively worse.

I gave her 9 days of no contact from either of us. At that point I just couldn't take it anymore, and sent her a short but sweet e-mail telling her how I feel about her. Nothing more, nothing less.

I get a reply the next morning stating that "we obviously need to talk." and told me she would come by the next day (tomorrow) at about 2:30, but that she has a meeting at 5:00.

I replied with how I wasn't comfortable knowing that she has to be somewhere soon after, and that we should just meet on Saturday when our schedules are free, so we don't feel rushed.

24 hours later, I get this reply:

"I am the one who asked to see you to talk. What I have to say will not take several hours. If we need more time to talk, we can meet again at another time.

I will see you after work tomorrow around 2:30ish."

I'm thinking What the Hell???? What did *I* do to make her mad? She's the one who's left me here to look after a house, the business, our animals, and myself after blindsiding me less than 2 weeks ago with 'I'm missing something and need to have sex with other men'.

Her phone's off, her sisters phone goes straight to voicemail.

I don't understand. I'm mad and angry and hurt probably more than I was all last week.

I'm not stupid enough to drive over there and start pounding on the door or anything, but I just don't know what to do.

For the record, I have already decided more or less that I want out of this relationship, too. I had enough time to reflect upon the fact that she has been emotionally abusive to me over the years and that her issues are ones that she's not ready to face yet. In essence, I recognize that it was an unhealthy relationship from the get go (14 years, 7 married).

But how THIS has to end with her being in control too just blows my mind. She can't even give me THIS.


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## StrongEnough (Nov 25, 2008)

alexm said:


> Well, it's just gotten progressively worse.
> 
> I gave her 9 days of no contact from either of us. At that point I just couldn't take it anymore, and sent her a short but sweet e-mail telling her how I feel about her. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but I think you are wrong on this one. She was not looking to be in control but rather she wanted to talk and expressed that to you, but you stated that it wasn't enough time. She is making time to talk to you, but it is not good enough?! I don't want to make you mad, but I think you missed something there. She wants to talk to you. Fit it in and have a good attitude about it. If you want to talk more on Saturday-great. Then you need to tell her that.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Fair enough, I can completely see where you're coming from.

Writing something on the internet is a hard way to convey what's actually going on.

It was more her wording than anything that perturbed me.

I've thought from the start (not sure if I mentioned this) that it very much appears that this time by herself is not being used to make up her mind whether she wants to do this or not.

Rather, and especially the more I'm able to read into things, I think she's already made her decision, and is giving me the time to get to a better place before she finalizes it.

That's the impression I get, mostly from her wording. But I also can't help but be negative now.

If she wanted to get back together, she'd say so now, and not wait.


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## StrongEnough (Nov 25, 2008)

alexm said:


> Fair enough, I can completely see where you're coming from.
> 
> Writing something on the internet is a hard way to convey what's actually going on.
> 
> ...


I disagree again! I think she may not know for sure what she wants. Did you guys get together and talk like you had scheduled? If so, how did that go? Can we get some insight into what she is currently telling you?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Nope. I wasn't comfortable with her only having a set period of time to talk. That's extremely unfair in my books.

You can't end a 7 year marriage and a 14 year relationship when you have to be somewhere in 2 hours...

I suggested this Saturday when we'd both have a free schedule.

She replied that what she had to say wouldn't take 2 hours, and that she'd be there (yesterday). I said no, you won't control this like you've controlled everything else... (except I said it nicer!) Saturday works for me.

She acquiesced, and Saturday it is.

Again, her choice (conscious or subconscious) of wording in the few e-mails she's sent (contact has only been by e-mail) have been quite clear that she hasn't been thinking whether she wants to be with me or no, and has instead thought of how and when she's going to actually tell me.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Just a quick update.

We should be meeting tomorrow, Saturday. Still have not heard from her re: time. She did say earlier in the week that she would let me know later the plan.

Also saw my/"our" counsellor yesterday. Second time for me. My wife hasn't been yet. Counsellor told me that unless she comes next time, preferably by herself, she can longer continue seeing me on the basis of marriage counselling. She needs to see her and get her side of things so there is no bias.

Had asked her on Tues if she was interested in this appointment, by herself. She said she'd think about it and let me know later that night, and I never heard anything. So I left it.

She did say all along that she would go to the appointment on the 16th, however. I won't ask her or push her. And after our meeting tomorrow, it may or may not be too late anyway.

The counsellor did recommend a good sexual/marriage THERAPIST that she feels we should go to.

Not sure how to broach that subject with my wife tomorrow. Not assuming she will be in any sort of a suggestive state of mind.

Also, did the only 2 "I want you back" gestures over the last couple of days.

First one was to scan and send her a copy of a note she wrote me only a few months ago. "Reasons why I love you." About 20-25 great little reasons as to why she loves me, and not the "usual" type of stuff that one might expect ("you buy me flowers." "you're always there for me." etc. none of that. Good, quality, personal reasons).

Anyhow the reply from her was short and to the point - "All still true." Period. Good sign, from my perspective.

So the next day, I took pictures of all our animals (we have 7 cats and a dog...!) that I know she's missed. I printed out a little sign that said "I miss my mommy" and put it next to each of them individually then took a picture. I created an animated .gif picture so it would cycle through all the pictures every 3 seconds. The last picture was of me holding a little sign that said I missed her too.

Thought it was rather creative and original. Didn't think it would harm or hurt her. Didn't get any reply. Thinking no reply is not such a bad thing...

Anyhow, I'll know where we stand tomorrow, and unless I'm completely devastated (I don't expect to be), I'll fill in the rest of the details over the next few days.

Thanks all for your support, I really appreciate it. There seems to be a very good community of people here, and it's nice to get an "outsiders" point of view in a forum like this.

Wish me luck.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

alexm-

You complain about her being in control. It's because you are giving her all the power. Also, if sending her that picture was for her benefit, you are not only wasting your time, but actually being counter-productive.

If a woman asks for space, the best thing you can do for the fastest result is to give them even more space than they asked for. Let her feel the distance she is creating. If you are always in the background begging her to come back, she will always feel that her adventures are safe, because she can come running back to you any time. On this note, it might not be all that bad if she hears you are going out and about. you don't have to actually do anything, but you could still enjoy yourself. I used to go dancing a lot - I used to "freak the floor out", as they say here. 

The more good clean fun you can have, the more relaxed and happy you will look when she next sees you. And that is what will sell you to her. *Not your begging and pleading, but your desirability.*

Let her feel the chill wind of the streets she's going down - *by herself*. Nothing else works unfortunately. very few women are attracted to a lap-dawg who pines away for her. they want a man. Be the man.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Good, solid advice, and definitely taken to heart. Thank you for your honesty.

I don't disagree with you at all, I really don't, but...

I really don't feel that I ever have, even once, begged or pleaded her to come back. I did two things that, to me anyway, did not appear desperate. I also know her (14 years in fact) well enough that it's unlikely that she would see it as desperate, either.

I can see your points, absolutely, but I haven't been out there like most men would, banging on her sister's door, sitting in my car outside waiting to see where she goes, checking her e-mail (I know what her password is), calling her every 5 minutes, etc etc etc. These, unfortunately, ARE things that many men and women do in situations like this.

I have been nothing but calm, rational, and agreeable with her. In the 3 days between when she broke this to me and her actually physically leaving the house, I told her that I fully agree with her thoughts. And I do. She knows that. The facts are there, and you can't dispute it. 14 years together, starting when she was 16, and no real time to figure herself and her sexuality out. I get it. And I told her I got it. I never begged or pleaded her to reconsider, because if she did, it would be out of guilt, not practicality. Then we would stay together, and she would do this all over again, or have an affair.

I recognize the dangers of doing the 2 or 3 things that I did, but I also needed to let her know I was still there in some way.

What she's doing now, and what anybody does in a breakup situation, is putting the "victim" out of their mind in every way possible. This is human nature and is a defense mechanism for the breaker-upper (I got that term from Seinfeld...!). That makes it easier on them, as NOBODY wants to be the person causing somebody so much pain, even if it IS for the best.

But yes, you are absolutely correct, and it does apply to me in many ways. Thank you.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

alexm-

There is something about you I can't quite put my finger on. I'm having trouble really connecting with you. It's like what we see on the surface is only the tip of the ice burg. 

I have noticed that in my rantings on TAM, I often have a theme for the week - it's not deliberate. This week I seem to be seeing things in terms of self actualisation. 

So now I am seeing you as someone who can use this break from your wife, to delve deep into your inner treasures and start bringing them to the surface, so they can finally see the light of day.

Go out more, and get fit in mind and body. Never let anybody tell you what the truth is, including me.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

You`ll have to explain that further, I don`t quite get what you`re saying. It almost sounds as though you think something`s wrong with me!

I`m not really sure what to think right now. I`m going through the worst period of my life at the moment, and looking for solace, but instead I get people telling me there`s something not quite right. Ok.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

alexm said:


> So the next day, I took pictures of all our animals (we have 7 cats and a dog...!) that I know she's missed. I printed out a little sign that said "I miss my mommy" and put it next to each of them individually then took a picture. I created an animated .gif picture so it would cycle through all the pictures every 3 seconds. The last picture was of me holding a little sign that said I missed her too.


i hope you do realize the symbolism of equating yourself along with the animals.

i dont tell my H i need space anymore b/c he actually gives it to me. More then i wanted, as MT said. if he had of given me more attention when i asked for space, it would have fed my ego, my power over him, and caused me to drag it out. i wouldn't have had to make a decision. I could have my cake and eat it too.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

First off, thank you. I am the one who needs space now, and she texted or e-mailed me 4 times yesterday for essentially no reason.

Secondly, re: the symbolism of equating myself with animals... It's a personal thing. The animals are our children, as hokey as that is to say out loud... And we're both animal rights supporters, so equating ourselves with "animals" ain't so bad.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

alexm said:


> You`ll have to explain that further, I don`t quite get what you`re saying. It almost sounds as though you think something`s wrong with me!
> 
> I`m not really sure what to think right now. I`m going through the worst period of my life at the moment, and looking for solace, but instead I get people telling me there`s something not quite right. Ok.


No, there is nothing wrong with you. You are a great guy who is just a little bit flummoxed at the moment. It's just that you are not (in my opinion) getting the most out of yourself. Imagine you were reading your own thread on this forum, as if you were somebody else, trying to give advice. It would really help to re-read the whole thread, especially everything *you *wrote.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Ohyeah, I have, don't worry! I want to make sure that what I'm saying keeps in context with everything else I've been saying here.

No, I know there's nothing wrong with me, other than there is definitely something wrong with me RIGHT NOW...!

Flummoxed is a good word.

To go from coming back from a happy vacation with my wife, and starting to prepare for xmas, to 4 days later being tod she wants to separate to have sex with other people. Yeah. Flummoxed.

Now her family hasn't even had any contact with me for the last couple of weeks. Her parents, who I always viewed as extensions of my own (my father died 10 years ago, and my mother is emotionally unavailable and an alcoholic - but is still there for me in some capacity), have not even phoned to see if I'm okay. Her brother is ignoring me, and her sister is done with me as well. Xmas's have been spent at her family's place over the last 10-12 years. There are 2 family birthdays and xmas all within a 7-day period, so it's always been a week of family get-togethers. This year, I'm getting pity invites from friends who want to make sure I'm okay.

All within about 3 weeks, has this happened, so yeah, I'm flummoxed! 

On a side note, the heartbreak appears to be somewhat over. The crying has stopped, and now it's just some anger, resentment and a lot of pain.

I've really, really figured out a lot about me over this time period, and I don't know what I want, still, but I DO know what I don't want in the future. That's a good sign.

It's just difficult to deal with this so suddenly, and especially at this time of year. I can't imagine it's that much easier any other time of year, but you know what I mean.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

It's been several months, so here's an update. Read my initial post, if you haven't or for a refresher, to see the first impressions.

There's also a little bit of advice needed in respect to animals and divorce, if anyone would care to chime in.

The long and the short of it is, she's gone for good.

What she told me when she left (that she wanted to experience other men) was true. Well, in as much as I can tell from the results.

There was already another man lined up. He lives in Europe. I live in Canada. They met online.

So her telling me she wanted to have sex with others was true. What she neglected to tell me was that there was someone else she had in mind already.

She moved out of the house permanently 4 days after telling me. She spent a few weeks between her sisters and parents house, then hopped a flight to Europe to be with him for a couple of weeks. She went back again less than a month later. She finally got rented her own place so that he was able to come here. He did so twice. Her rental place is around the corner from me, no more than a minute away. I live in a big city.

I knew none of this for 5 months. I was under the impression the whole time that she was doing her thing, dating maybe, clearing her head, being alone, whatever.

I only found out about this when she came to the realization that she was in love with him and that she was going to move there to be with him. She had to tell me, because, up to this point, she was visiting my/our cats and dog, and when she had her own place, they were going back and forth every couple of weeks. (shared custody).

So 5 months after she leaves me, I get the FULL story of what happened and why. By that point, I was "okay" with her leaving. I still didn't like the rejection, especially after all I had put in for 14 years (7 married), but I realized there was a whole other world out there. But what she told me made me go through it all again. I was under a completely different impression of what happened, and to find out it had all been lies floored me.

Not to mention that several mutual friends, and all her family, of course, had known about this from the get-go. They all lied to me, to cover up what she was doing. Her family, save for her sister, did not out-and-out lie to me, but were evasive during the little communication we had. Her sister, however, lied to me bluntly and repeatedly. I found this very hard to deal with, because she was the only one of the family to attempt to be there for me, as biased as she had to be (being her sister and all).

I lost 3 friends, one of whom I considered good, because they all lied to me. Of course I asked the normal questions of them - "Is there someone else?" "Did you know about this?" etc. They all said no, of course not. My ex and I both worked at the same place, so we would see each other every day. We would avoid each other, of course, but we'd know if one or the other was not at work. After not seeing her there for over a week, I asked one of our co-workers where she was. He said she was sick. Nope, she was in Europe with her new man. That particular one hurt me, as I considered this guy to be a very good friend, and a solid guy.

So at this point, even though I was over "her" as a person, I was still dealing with the ramifications of it all. The house, cats, adjusting to a new life, etc etc etc. To get the full story and to hear that people close to me lied, was almost worse than the first time around.

So at this point, she has moved to Europe, supposedly permanently, but is due to come back in a few weeks to tie up some lose ends, etc.

My issue now is my cats. There are 6 of them, and they were our/her life for many years. We aren't crazy cat people (though is sounds that way... lol) but they are thought of as family. However, she left them behind, and took the dog. She had, at one point, said she intended to take two of the cats with her when she comes back. I talked her out of one of them (who would NOT be a good flyer), and prodded her to reconsider taking ANY of them.

So she's coming back, apparently, in a few weeks, and I am scared to death she is going to show up and either demand to see them, or insist she's taking one or more of them back with her.

I'm between a bit of a rock and a hard place here. We had signed a separation agreement some months back, and the house is now in my name only. Essentially and all things, items, etc. that are in this house, including the house itself, are mine. Cats in this country are considered "property", so I figure she has about as much right to the cats as she does to the couch and the toaster.

I asked the lawyer who handled the agreement about this possibility, and he basically said that she could sue for custody. He didn't elaborate much more than that. I didn't have the $ at the time to continue this discussion with him ($45 per e-mail, $150 for a sit-down... lawyers... ugh).

But as far as I can tell, she'd have no right at this point. She left not only the house and animals, but the country as well. For several months. I can't see how any lawyer would take on her case.

And she's also blocked my e-mail (as I have with hers), so she's clearly expressed that she wants no more contact. I'll find it rather ridiculous is she pops back up in a few weeks when it's convenient for her to have contact again, but while she's having fun with her new man, she doesn't want to hear from me... (in her defense, I did go over the top a bit with e-mails. Was never abusive or threatening, but I could also have relaxed a bit... I found it hard right after she moved, in that she could leave her animals behind, when she practically loved them all more than she loved me while we were together... So i made my point to her, e-mailed pictures of them throughout the years, etc. Essentially trying to make her feel bad/guilty. Childish, I know...  But what are you going to do?)

Anyway, I have reassurances from virtually everybody I've talked to about the cat situation that she's out of her tree if she expects to get her way with this. Quite frankly, I want the cats here. For my reasons, NOT to be spiteful to her, at all. It has almost nothing to do with her, I genuinely don't want to lose any of my animals. She already took the puppy... 

So if anyone has had any experience with animals, let me know. I'd love to hear what happened, please.

On a similar note, I have been dating for a little while now, and very happily, I might add. I reconnected with my very first girlfriend, whom I dated for 3 years back in high school. We had very sparse contact over the last 15 or so years, but one of us would pop up every now and again. So I asked her if she wanted to go out one day, we did, and things went from there. She's made me realize what I was missing all these years from my ex-wife, she really has.


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