# Am I to blame for my husband's PA?



## munchie (May 17, 2011)

Exactly one week ago (May 10) I found out that my husband of 20 years has been having a *four month EA/PA* with a Sr VP who works for one of his biggest clients. I accidentally found a cache of e-mails while I was fixing my daughter's computer (which had been my H's old computer until a few months ago). As it turned out, they had arranged another tryst for that very night, scheduled to take place after a business-related awards dinner that they were both going to be at.

The OW is also married, with a young daughter. I know "_everything_" about her because my H has been working with her company for over a year and he frequently talked about her and her co-workers. I didn't think anything unusual because my H has many clients (he has an advertising agency) and we often talk about work and clients, etc. I work FT from home and we have several mutual clients. 

On the day I found out, I called my H several times to see what time he would be home after the awards dinner. He said that it would probably be over by 10pm (it was starting at 5pm) but that he would most likely go out for drinks with some of his staff members also attending, so he would be home by midnight. (The real plan was to check into a hotel with OW for a few hours after the event.) But he could tell by the tone of my voice that something was weird, so he came home right after the dinner was over. When he walked in the door and came up to our bedroom, I immediately confronted him and asked "How long have you been seeing (OW)?" He looked stunned, but then said "Since early January." I asked if he slept with her and he said "Yes, but less than 15 times ..." WTF??!! At first he was annoyed and accused me of snooping into his e-mail account, but I told him that I found out by accident (I didn't tell him how, though). I handed him all the e-mails that I had printed out. He said he a very stupid thing, he never meant for it to happen (especially with HER), it got out of control and he felt terrible that he hurt me.

I asked him a lot of questions about the wheres, whens, etc. From her e-mails, it was clear that she was "completely and without reservation in love" with him. I asked him if he loved her too and he said yes. But he claims that he doesn't want to leave me for her and that he wants to keep our marriage and family intact. He explained that he and OW worked closely on a big project for a few months (he used to tell me all about the project), then they found themselves sharing details of their lives after hours and eventually began the EA which lead to the PA. Apparently she's been having her own marital problems and he was her sympathetic ear. He said that he hasn't slept with me since he's been sleeping with her and insists that I didn't even notice because we go months without sex. He told me he felt like I didn't have an interest in him anymore and decided that he would stop bothering me for sex and intimacy. She obviously filled a void in his life. 

He said that for years, he's been trying to talk to me about the problems with our marriage - our infrequent sex, my tendency to be constantly preoccupied with the kids, the house, my own work, etc., my lack of desire to be intimate, etc., etc. Yes, we have very busy lives with three active kids and two businesses (his and mine) and oftentimes we ARE like two ships passing in the night. But I always thought we had fun, enjoyed each other's company, went on vacations, and out to dinner, and the things that were lacking would work themselves out in time. 

While he agreed that we love each other, he claims that he also felt lonely, isolated and that his self-esteem took a heavy hit because I didn't seem to ever want to be with him. He said he tried many times "for decades" to engage me in conversations about how he was feeling, how he tried to initiate sexual and romantic moments, take me places, buy me things but it never seemed to make me happy or make him feel loved and appreciated. He said he didn't go out looking for someone else, but eventually he and the OW found comfort in each other. He said to me "I felt like you were either having an affair yourself or you just didn't care about me. You seemed happy that I wasn't bothering you for sex and I was happy because someone else found me loving and attractive and special ... so I felt like it worked for both of us." 

I truly want to work on repairing my marriage though. I do love him and know that I need to make sex and intimacy more of a priority - but I'm not sure when I'll feel like I can trust him again. I told him that I'm really uncomfortable knowing he'll continue to see this woman in a business capacity because she's the main contact person at her firm. The day after I found out, he called her to say that I know about everything and that they couldn't continue seeing each other. But he's also said "in so many words" that he's grieving the loss of her so it has me very worried.

Am I to blame for his infidelity? How much time should I give our relationship before I allow/initiate romantic and sexual overtures? I want to show my H that I'm willing to work hard to get us back to a better place, but he feels like he's going to be disappointed by my lack of actions again and I'm nervous about being hurt again. I'm not sure what to do next.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

I didn't even need to read your whole story. But the answer is always NO!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

If you went months without sex and didn't even notice - his happiness was simply not a very high priority to you. 

If you now turn this around and do the "I am not sure I can be intimate with you because I don't trust you" you are blaming the victim. 

The real key to this is simple. He kept saying "I need to feel loved" and yet because he kept meeting your needs you felt comfortable ignoring his MAIN need as a man. 

Yes - what he did was wrong. It was. And it is also true that you breached your vow - your vow to LOVE him as a husband - as a MAN. And you did it for a LONG LONG time. And his behavior was a response to that.




munchie said:


> Exactly one week ago (May 10) I found out that my husband of 20 years has been having a *four month EA/PA* with a Sr VP who works for one of his biggest clients. I accidentally found a cache of e-mails while I was fixing my daughter's computer (which had been my H's old computer until a few months ago). As it turned out, they had arranged another tryst for that very night, scheduled to take place after a business-related awards dinner that they were both going to be at.
> 
> The OW is also married, with a young daughter. I know "_everything_" about her because my H has been working with her company for over a year and he frequently talked about her and her co-workers. I didn't think anything unusual because my H has many clients (he has an advertising agency) and we often talk about work and clients, etc. I work FT from home and we have several mutual clients.
> 
> ...


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## Craggy456 (Feb 22, 2011)

NO! My DH gave me the same lines about how he didn't like that we didnt have sex everyday, I was on antidepressants, I didn't find him attractive anymore. 
He even made a drunken comment to our former roomate that "I make all the $$ so I can do whatever I want"

None of this is your fault!!!!

(sorry for the typos, cut part of my finger off last week)


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

*Am I to blame for his infidelity?

*Which answer means something? Yes? or No?By that I suggest what kind of resolution are really looking for? Justice? Victory?


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## mommy2 (Oct 27, 2009)

Sorry this has happened to you. Our stories have many similarities. (the OW wasn't a coworker but a friend of mine) My marriage had been having issues for a while (small children, financial strains, busy, etc.) and our marriage lacked intimacy as well. I just chose to "live with it" and even though we started arguing more and more - we still had fun and we always with the kids, etc. so never in a million years expected that he would have an A. 

_While he agreed that we love each other, he claims that he also felt lonely, isolated and that his self-esteem took a heavy hit because I didn't seem to ever want to be with him. He said he tried many times "for decades" to engage me in conversations about how he was feeling, how he tried to initiate sexual and romantic moments, take me places, buy me things but it never seemed to make me happy or make him feel loved and appreciated. He said he didn't go out looking for someone else, but eventually he and the OW found comfort in each other. He said to me "I felt like you were either having an affair yourself or you just didn't care about me. You seemed happy that I wasn't bothering you for sex and I was happy because someone else found me loving and attractive and special ... so I felt like it worked for both of us."_

This sounds like my H talking. He said he assumed I was having an A, etc. He never meant for it to happen either. He too said it felt good to feel loved and appreciated again.

SO, with all that said. NO, you are not to blame for your H's A. That's all on him. But, like me, you are partially to blame for issues in your marriage that got it in the place that allowed the A to occur. Make sense? The A is not your fault nor was it mine. BUT it was my fault that my H didn't feel loved, wanted by me. What he did is still completely wrong but I have to be accountable for my actions that led my marriage to the state it was in.

The good news, is you can get back to a good place in your marriage. And it's completely up to you how fast you proceed with the initimacy. I can tell you that I found out about my H's A on a Sunday morning. That night, after much talking and tears - we made love with so much passion and love....and continued like rabbits for weeks/months! :smthumbup: I did love my H still, in fact, forgot how much I truly did. And I missed that part of us. I wanted to show him that he didn't need anyone else to feel loved and wanted - I was all he needed. He is truly remorseful and has been a better husband since then. Major 360. Helps me with kids, around the house - answers the phone when I call "hey beautiful", etc. We realized how much we love each other and how much we want our marriage to work. He screwed up big time and as he's told me many, many times - would take it all back in a heart beat if he could. 

As for the trust, it took me a while but I do trust him again. He's been pretty transparent. And, shame on me, but I never had any idea he was sneaking around - I was totally clueless - that's how much we had grown apart. And it was with a friend, so right under my nose. For me also, they only had sex about 10 times he confirmed over the course of a couple weeks. He always tells me where he is, etc. I, honestly, believe him and I know he'll never go down that road again. Like it sounds is the same with your H - my H didn't search it out - it just happened. My marriage will never get to the place again and something like that could happen. I assure you that.

Best of luck to you!


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

Obvoiusly I'm a guy so I will try to give you a different opinion. I feel like the fact that you were not having sex for months at a time would indicate a major problem. But you are not to blame for the affair at all. That is 100% on him. If he didn't like the lack of intamacy he should have tried to talk to you and then he should have eventually divorced you if the two of you did not work it out.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Ya...he took the *ussy way out. its not your fault he's to weak to stand up and take the high road and face the hard truth that the both of you had issues. So why deal with them "I'll just cheat"

Instead he took the easy way out and snuck around like a criminal. If her had balls he would done the heavy lifting here and told you he wanted to move on. Instead of standing up and telling you straight to your face that this ain't working, we need help, I have to move on.

No it doesn't work that way they just tell us its all good b/c "they don't want to hurt us" Well F*ck them they are weak and chicken sh*t to face the hard fact that the marraige is failling and adress the damb issues. No lets just pretend and fake it...its easier...lets not be confrontational...."I'l just sleep around its easier then facing the reality of a problemmatic marriage.

Sorry for the rant munchie...

Bottom line the marriage was problematic before the affair, the both of you need to own that grap, but the affair is all him!


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

You are NOT to blame.
He had other options:
He should have talked with you about his feelings.
Suggested that you go to marriage counseling.
Separation.
Divorce.

It's called being "honest" with your wife.

Honesty is the Best Policy.


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate the candor. I know in my heart it's really not my fault that he had a PA ... but mommy2 said it perfectly when describing her own situation: _"you are partially to blame for issues in your marriage that got it in the place that allowed the A to occur. Make sense? The A is not your fault nor was it mine. BUT it was my fault that my H didn't feel loved, wanted by me. What he did is still completely wrong but I have to be accountable for my actions that led my marriage to the state it was in."_

I think I've known for a long time that I haven't been as attentive as I could have been. I did take him for granted and assumed our love/relationship was unconditional. I never imagined that he would end up with someone else.

I want to be intimate with him again, but I'm afraid and don't know if it's too soon. It's only been a week since I've known and the pain is still too raw. He was at a meeting at OW's office today with several of her co-workers and she happened to pop her head into the office. He said it was very uncomfortable and he wanted to get out of there ASAP. At least that's what he tells me. Hard to trust what he says, though.


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## mommy2 (Oct 27, 2009)

The most important thing you can do right now is communicate. Keep the communication lines open. Tell him exactly that. That you do want to be intimate with him, that unfortunately the hurt is still raw, etc. The best thing you can do is talk. Have you considered MC? We went twice. She told us we had done so much talking before we came to her she didn't think we needed to come anymore. At counseling, believe it or not, the A was barely talked about. It was our marriage we discussed - the issues that we were having and how to address and fix those. I'll never forget her quote - marriages are like gardens and yours you left unattended for too long - you need to weed it & nurture it and get back to the beauty. Well said. She also referred to the A as the horrible & wonderful thing that happened to our marriage. Horrible for well many obvious reasons but wonderful because we ended up with a better marriage than we ever had before.

I won't lie - its not unicorns and rainbows every day & its been rough but worth it!

Again, best of luck. You'll know when the time is right. And maybe by just really talking, you'll feel closer to him.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Of course it goes without saying that if you want to save and rebuild your marriage that your H must end all contact with the OW. How is that going to happen if there is a possibility that they may work on another project? 

I know these economic times make it very hard to just up and leave a job, so how is your H going to give you assurances that he and the OW are not going to have any contact?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Before getting into the topic of NC - a more important discussion needs to happen. 

You and he need to decide if you are capable of a healthy marriage. At a glance the way this looks is that he is a "classic nice guy" where you are concerned. Meaning he routinely complained about your treatment of him while consistently making sure your needs were well met. 

Basically he accepted the underlying premise that you and your needs were far more important than him and his needs. And that dynamic has persisted in your marriage for decades based on his comments to you. This does not mean you were not nice to him and he to you. It DOES mean that when your wants conflicted with his NEEDS, your wants got addressed and his needs got deprioritized to the point where they weren't even on your radar screen. Lets be honest here. You didn't notice the total absence of sex for 4 months. On the face of that, it is gross neglect of the marriage and of your partner. 

My guess is that his lack of "edge" with you was a big factor in you losing desire for him. And lets shoot straight here - that is exactly what happened a long time ago. Because if you HAD desire for him, you would have noticed and addressed the absence of sex way, way, WAY faster than 4 months. 

Lacking desire for him does not make you a bad wife. However the truly loving thing to do in that situation is this:
1. You have a totally unfiltered conversation about what he is doing that turns you on/turns you off both in and outside the bedroom.
2. He makes an effort in those areas and in parallel you show him that "unconditional" love you so freely mentioned above by committing to a sexual frequency that makes him feel loved. 

BTW - 1 and 2 need to happen now unless you want to regress to a marital mirage...





morituri said:


> Of course it goes without saying that if you want to save and rebuild your marriage that your H must end all contact with the OW. How is that going to happen if there is a possibility that they may work on another project?
> 
> I know these economic times make it very hard to just up and leave a job, so how is your H going to give you assurances that he and the OW are not going to have any contact?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

As someone who has cheated on their spouse, I liked mommy2's response. It took both of us to get our relationship to the point that looking outside the marriage was even a consideration, but that decision was entirely my responsibility.

In talking to my counsellor, his response was similar to hers... The cheating is a symptom of the problems in the marriage. Of course, it obviously and justifiably kicks of a whole host of it's own problems that then need to be dealt with. But if you don't deal with the things that caused the cheating in the first place, it may be a short fix, even if the affair is forgiven.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

The answer to this is NO.

He had a choice. 
I am very big on choice. 
He could have said. "Look unless we sort this out I am going to leave." 
He didn't
His fault. 
He chose to break your heart instead.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I won't go so far as to lay the blame on you because it was his choice, however, if one spouse consistently denies sex and intimacy to their mate, an affair or a divorce should be an expected, logical consequence. He didn't create himself or give himself sexual or social needs. He can't flip a switch and turn them off. He did try to bring his needs to you over and over again. I don't blame him, either. It's not a blame thing. Both of you engaged in a course of action which honestly could only lead to someplace bad. There's no value in pointing fingers at this point. There will have to be forgiveness and renewed commitment on both sides to make this thing work.


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## The 13th_Floor (Mar 7, 2011)

What you're dealing with is the typical "oh yeaaaaa," moment after finding out your husband's reasoning for why he had the affair, but there's no way in hell that his excuses are going to save him from the consequences that you SHOULD throw his way. Like many have said already, he had other options. Like my wife, instead of choosing to communicate, separate or divorce, she decided that destroying our marriage and family was the better option, like your husband.

Here's the hard part. Now that you're owning up to YOUR 50% of the failure, you still have to make him own up to his actions which are completely inexcusable. It shouldn't take an affair to get a spouse to listen...


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

The 13th_Floor said:


> What you're dealing with is the typical "oh yeaaaaa," moment after finding out your husband's reasoning for why he had the affair, but there's no way in hell that his excuses are going to save him from the consequences that you SHOULD throw his way. Like many have said already, he had other options. Like my wife, instead of choosing to communicate, separate or divorce, she decided that destroying our marriage and family was the better option, like your husband.
> 
> Here's the hard part. Now that you're owning up to YOUR 50% of the failure, you still have to make him own up to his actions which are completely inexcusable. It shouldn't take an affair to get a spouse to listen...


I read this topic last night and I was planning to respond and this is exactly what I was going to write. I was in a similar situation with my ex H. His claim was that he has not been happy for 3 years yet at the same time he never said: This is what is bothering me, I don't like this or that, it's affecting our marriage, lets do MC or anything along these lines. Is it my fault that he kept this inside himself and never voiced his opinion(and trust me he is not shy he works in sales)? Should I have scheduled monthly meetings to see how my H is feeling? That for sure would have made me like the insecure woman.

I don't know maybe after 9 years together I expected that if something was so wrong that my H would come to me and express his feelings. He certainly had no problems expressing his feelings all those years back.

And as many mentioned above he had options, not one but quite a few of them that could have been explored before venturing in affairland.

So no, I don't think you should blame yourself. We might have contributed to those feelings they harboured inside themselves but affair was certainly not going to make them go away completely.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Read her post - he has been voicing extreme distress on this topic for a long, long time. Ignore your partners cries for help at your own risk.




notreadytoquit said:


> I read this topic last night and I was planning to respond and this is exactly what I was going to write. I was in a similar situation with my ex H. His claim was that he has not been happy for 3 years yet at the same time he never said: This is what is bothering me, I don't like this or that, it's affecting our marriage, lets do MC or anything along these lines. Is it my fault that he kept this inside himself and never voiced his opinion(and trust me he is not shy he works in sales)? Should I have scheduled monthly meetings to see how my H is feeling? That for sure would have made me like the insecure woman.
> 
> I don't know maybe after 9 years together I expected that if something was so wrong that my H would come to me and express his feelings. He certainly had no problems expressing his feelings all those years back.
> 
> ...


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I read her post but how was he voicing his distress? I don't get the impression that he sat her down when there were no distractions and said to her in plain English: I have a problem with XYZ, I don't like this or that. I think it affects our marriage.

If someone said that to me you bet I would listen. Why can't people say what they think instead of speaking a foreign language when it comes to their feelings. Nobody is a mind reader. Sometimes we may do things not realizing how they are affecting other people.

Few months before I discovered my H affair at one occasion he did not want to have sex and I even told him: I don't want this to affect our marriage. You know what he told me: Oh don't worry about that just take care of our son(who at the time had serious medical issues). When people tell you something like this how are you supposed to know that something is so SERIOUSLY wrong and that they are on the verge of having an affair?


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Read her post - he has been voicing extreme distress on this topic for a long, long time. Ignore your partners cries for help at your own risk.


And at the cheating spouse's risk as well. How many times has a cheating spouse cried, begged and pleaded to be given a second chance? It happened in my case - even though by my ex-W's admission - there was nothing I wasn't doing that made her turn towards her OM.

No I don't buy the line "Ignore your partners cries for help at your own risk" as a justification for having an affair and destroying other peoples lives - Don't forget that her H has also helped to destroy the OW marriage and family just so he can get his rocks off.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

NotReady,
Clearly your situation was very different. 

Munchie,
I give you huge props for providing a balanced view of this which I believe you have. 


>>>>>>>>>>>>>
He said that for years, he's been trying to talk to me about the problems with our marriage - our infrequent sex, my tendency to be constantly preoccupied with the kids, the house, my own work, etc., my lack of desire to be intimate, etc., etc. Yes, we have very busy lives with three active kids and two businesses (his and mine) and oftentimes we ARE like two ships passing in the night. But I always thought we had fun, enjoyed each other's company, went on vacations, and out to dinner, and the things that were lacking would work themselves out in time. 

While he agreed that we love each other, he claims that he also felt lonely, isolated and that his self-esteem took a heavy hit because I didn't seem to ever want to be with him. He said he tried many times "for decades" to engage me in conversations about how he was feeling, how he tried to initiate sexual and romantic moments, take me places, buy me things but it never seemed to make me happy or make him feel loved and appreciated. He said he didn't go out looking for someone else, but eventually he and the OW found comfort in each other. He said to me "I felt like you were either having an affair yourself or you just didn't care about me. You seemed happy that I wasn't bothering you for sex and I was happy because someone else found me loving and attractive and special ... so I felt like it worked for both of us." 









notreadytoquit said:


> I read her post but how was he voicing his distress? I don't get the impression that he sat her down when there were no distractions and said to her in plain English: I have a problem with XYZ, I don't like this or that. I think it affects our marriage.
> 
> If someone said that to me you bet I would listen. Why can't people say what they think instead of speaking a foreign language when it comes to their feelings. Nobody is a mind reader. Sometimes we may do things not realizing how they are affecting other people.
> 
> Few months before I discovered my H affair at one occasion he did not want to have sex and I even told him: I don't want this to affect our marriage. You know what he told me: Oh don't worry about that just take care of our son(who at the time had serious medical issues). When people tell you something like this how are you supposed to know that something is so SERIOUSLY wrong and that they are on the verge of having an affair?


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

Thanks everyone. This forum is helping me a great deal.

My biggest revelation from this whole episode is that over the years, when my husband verbalized how our lack of sex/intimacy made him feel badly about himself, I thought it was intrinsic to *his* personality. He can be a bit needy and his "_whining_" (that's how I _'heard_' it) about our intimacy problems would shut me down. But after reading the comments in this and other forums - I'm realizing that many men (and probably women) go through similar emotions of loneliness, anger, low self-esteem, etc. when their partner doesn't respond to them in an intimate way. I consider myself an intelligent person, but for some very strange reason, it never occurred to me that he could be feeling like this. I just wasn't cognizant of how my actions were affecting my husband in an emotional way. It's still no excuse for a PA, but I feel terrible that my actions somehow caused it. When I apologize to my H for this, he asks me not to apologize and then apologizes to me for causing so much hurt. Is that the guilt talking?

I keep telling my H that I am committed to making him happy and getting us back to a really good place. He says that he has no expectations of me and that I should just be who I am - even if that means "he'll have to continue to compartmentalize our relationship in his brain" -- his words. He said he loves me and appreciates that I've been understanding and that I want to make changes. We just had a phone conversation. He sounded a little strange and when I probed, he explained that he feels numb right now. He said he needs to spend a lot of time thinking about everything that's happened and sort it all out in his mind. I asked him if he's thinking about the OW and missing her. While he didn't come out and say yes ... he keeps telling me that it's hard to completely delete the past several months from his mind. He also expressed sadness at how the EA/PA ended because it was abrupt, there was no closure and _"she's a good person and he cares for her and her feelings_." Yesterday while at a mtg at her company, OW popped her head into the conference room to say hello. He said he felt extremely uncomfortable when he saw her. 

He said that he wants things to get back to "normal" but he doesn't know what normal is or feels like right now. I'm not sure what that means. I don't want him to feel like my shows of affection are forced and I also don't want him to be pining away for his lost EA/PA and the OW. Feels like I'm stuck between a rock and hard place. As unsettled as I am about all of this ... he seems very unsettled too. (Is it guilt, longing, sadness, confusion, anxiety or all of the above?). 

H said he would go to a marriage counselor but we've also done an enormous amount of talking over the past week. I feel like we understand what and how things happened and what our challenges will be going forward. I'm just really scared though.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

if he works with her, he should, okay lied, NEEDS to find a new job. If wants to go back to "normal" (which will never happen after an affair) then he needs to have No Contact at all with her. Zero. Only then can you both start going forward.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Munchie,
Your take on this is very balanced. 

Your H is so crushed by guilt he is suppressing the negative emotions he felt over being rejected. You truly do have the potential to have a much happier marriage going forward provided you are both willing to break some behavior patterns. 

Your H has "no idea at all" that interleaving long periods of being super nice with brief whiny conversations is a HUGE turn off for most women. And in fact a man who is very nice and somewhat whiny about life is also a turn off for many women.

I have a low "whine" factor except when I am tired. I have simply learned to be quiet when I am tired. 

As for all these books that say you start with "When you do X, I feel ...." I am literally ROTFL. Because they are 100 percent right and 100 percent wrong when applied to my marriage. For my W - she can effectively use that technique with me 7X24 and she will get a constructive positive response. 

For me. Not a chance. What works from me to her is very simple. When I don't like what is happening I briefly convey that. Brief could be a facial expression combined with a word or phrase. If she chooses to escalate, I show her that I don't like what is happening by being cooler in my behavior towards her or if sorely provoked I reduce the time we spend together. 

Telling her something "hurt my feelings" is a proven train wreck. Being "less loving" works like a charm when she is being blatantly disrespectful or treating me like I am a low priority. She always knows WHY. Otherwise this would be mean - and I am not mean. Just firm. 

Your H has some behavior patterns that you tolerate, but that also kill you desire. If you want to improve your marriage you might want to consider two parallel paths with him. The first is to acknowledge that you deprioritized him, and his emotional needs and that doing so really did hurt him. And the second is to openly and constructively tell him what he needs to do in order for you to view him more positively from a sexual standpoint. 

It isn't fair to you to have to "force" yourself to have sex with someone who is doing things that turn you off. BTW - EVERYTHING is fair game here. If he needs to go to the gym - tell him. The thing is, it also isn't fair to him for you to not tell him this stuff because frankly he is not self aware enough to figure it out on his own or he would have done so long ago. 

And ummm - at risk of TMI - everything means everything. If my W had not very bluntly told me that "gentle sex" was ok once in a while, but generally not her thing, we would have a broken marriage. And that doesn't mean she is into s and m. It does mean that she needs to see/feel some edge to be turned on. I was embarrassed at how sadly clueless I was when she subtly taught me all this in my early thirties. Because that stuff, I never would have figured out on my own. 

And there is a tactful way to deliver all this. "You know I truly love you, I haven't done a good job of telling you what amplifies my raw desire and also what tends to decrease my raw desire. I want to do a better job of being open with you going forward. Would that be ok"? 





munchie said:


> Thanks everyone. This forum is helping me a great deal.
> 
> My biggest revelation from this whole episode is that over the years, when my husband verbalized how our lack of sex/intimacy made him feel badly about himself, I thought it was intrinsic to *his* personality. He can be a bit needy and his "_whining_" (that's how I _'heard_' it) about our intimacy problems would shut me down. But after reading the comments in this and other forums - I'm realizing that many men (and probably women) go through similar emotions of loneliness, anger, low self-esteem, etc. when their partner doesn't respond to them in an intimate way. I consider myself an intelligent person, but for some very strange reason, it never occurred to me that he could be feeling like this. I just wasn't cognizant of how my actions were affecting my husband in an emotional way. It's still no excuse for a PA, but I feel terrible that my actions somehow caused it. When I apologize to my H for this, he asks me not to apologize and then apologizes to me for causing so much hurt. Is that the guilt talking?
> 
> ...


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

Low self esteem is a huge culprit when it comes to affairs. When an attractive co-worker came on to my husband he was ripe for the attention. It's more the attention than the sex, the feeling that someone finds you so "fascinating". My husband and I usually had sex 2-3x a week, so even being sexually active with your spouse isn't going to prevent an affair. The only thing it did was keep the encounters to a minimum.

The affair did open both our eyes to the problems that made the A possible. Who knows what would've happened had an attractive man gave me a sympathetic ear. Pretty sure I wouldn't have had sex with him, but an EA was certainly a possibility. Marital problems make both people vulnerable to affairs, especially if you're not aware you're vulnerable. I knew I was vulnerable, so steered clear of dangerous situations. 

My husband felt low self esteem due to typical mid-life crisis issues, so it's possible your H would've slipped and had an EA even if you were being more physcially intimate. The emotional connection is also really needed, besides the physical.

Moving forward, I think it's very important that your husband and the OW have no contact. My husband still is at the same job and hasn't seen the OW since D-day, but he knows it's only a matter of time before they cross paths. So, he's networking and looking for a new job. In the meantime, he calls into group meetings if they're both supposed to be there and doesn't go to any after work functions.

Getting a good marriage counselor is also important. We're very fortunate to have found someone we both like. She suggested we do therapy together instead of IC, stating it seems to "stick" more when you work on personal issues as a team.

Good luck and I'm so sorry you are now a member to this thread. Our 15 year anniversary is this fall, so I can relate to how devastated you feel. At first, my husband made me feel my being a stay-at-home mom was to blame for his affair. The financial burden made the OW more appealing, because she worked. Can't win, if I was full time then that would've been to blame, because then I'd be too busy. Bottom line, you're both 50/50 to blame for the marital problems, but cheating is 100% on the disloyal. 

Side note, if you want to resume being physical intimate, go for it. It's a question I asked our therapist about 2 weeks after d-day. She said to go ahead, as long as I'm doing it for me and I'm getting something out of it too. Go with whatever makes you feel good, it can be helpful in the healing process. We feel much more connected now than ever before.


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

@Bigwayneo - H is Pres of his own advertising agency -- the OW is a VP at _"Company XYZ"_ - one of H's clients. They don't work together in the same building. _"Company XYZ'_s" offices are 45 minutes away from H's office. He has been working with "_Company XYZ_" for two years and they represent over $300,000 in fees and commissions for my husband's co. I can understand him not wanting to give up the client - they are prestigious and provide a good profit to his business. H and OW got involved on an intimate basis only a few months ago when they started working closely together on a project. For 1-1/2 yrs prior to that ... they were strictly business associates and interactions were mainly in group settings. 

I can't tell my husband to give up _"Company XYZ"_ as a client and he's already admitted it was *completely insane* to get involved with someone who works there. But he already knows he has to find a way to avoid working directly with OW in the future.


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

@MEM11363 - I really appreciate hearing the male perspective on this so far, so thanks for your comments.

Today is a particularly tough day for me because I think everything is starting to hit H and I feel like he is slipping away rather than coming closer. He's called me four times and each time, his voice sounds more forlorn. He seems to be experiencing deep remorse at the way in which he ended things with OW and said he feels the need to say something to her or explain his actions. He also said he needs to think about me in a different way going forward, because he had already placed me in a particular compartment in his mind. WTF??!! 

When I ask him if we wants to stay in our marriage, he says me "of course" and that he loves me. But he says two things that have me confused. First he says that he's been thinking about me in a certain way all these years and he knows that it won't be easy to change the way he thinks about me in light of the recent EA with the OW. It's like the A opened up an emotional deluge for him that he never got from me and never expected to ever get ... so now he has to think about me providing it and he's having difficulty with that concept. At the same time, he says that the fact that we're married for 20 years and have three children provides him with a different emotional connection than he had with OW - so he can't compare the depths of feelings he has for me vs. those he had for her. 

I don't know if I should insist that he not have his "final goodbye" with her. Here's me saying "I'm forgiving you and want us to work everything out" and H is saying "Well ... just let me say goodbye to her officially and by the way, I'm not sure what you and I will end up having because I took you out of the running a long time ago ..."

Where do I go with this?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hold on a second here. Lets be even handed. You have a husband whose "unsexy" behavior made sex unpleasant enough for his W that her primary reaction to NO SEX for 4 months was relief. I am not saying she consciously thought about the duration as she likely didn't. This comes across as a sexless marriage where the LD spouse simply made sure to keep her calendar full enough to create "structural impediment" to sex. 

Why did she do that? I don't know. I can only tell you why MOST LD partners do it. 
1. She was afraid that if she openly told him how little sexual attraction she has for him it would jeopardize the marriage
2. Having blunt conversations about desire triggers is often very uncomfortable

So basically you have a H who wasn't strong enough to stand up for himself in the marriage and a W who wasn't willing to risk the marriage by being brutally honest about what was "really" happening. The saddest part of this is he KNEW she wasn't attracted to him but not really WHY. 

So she is guilty of decades of "low grade deception" and he is guilty of 4 months of high grade deception. 

Do you have any idea how tough it is for a HD spouse to do a direct facedown with their LD partner on this stuff? I do. I did it. VERY scary in the moment and very painful afterwards. If you have an overall healthy marriage the facedown works very well. But it is like a hip replacement, after the surgery it hurts for a long time. 



oaksthorne said:


> WTF? He could have told her about his "problems", he did not, not really or his wife would not have been blind sided . Cheaters often rewrite the hx of the marriage to make the spouse the scape goat. My H thinks that he "kept telling me" his problems He says he said things to me, He didn't. He never talked to me about anything that he says was a problem for him until I found out about his A. Now he realizes that he was still in an affair fog and that he actually expected me to know things that he had never discussed with me. He wanted me to feel guilty so he could feel justified in breaking his marriage vows and lying to me for months. He wanted his cake, and he told himself all kinds of lies to make getting it acceptable to him. His real problems were that he was hot to trot and dishonest. He wanted to nail another woman so he could feel like a stud. There is no way to justify this, it is not the BS's fault. Not in any respect, ever. If a person is really unhappy they can be honest and work on the problems with their spouse. I was married before. My former H was never in the dark about what I thought our problems were.
> We went to MC. When I left he was not surprised, not blind sided. When I entered another relationship, I did it honestly, our divorce was already in the works.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ignore my last post - it was directed at Oaks - not you. 

First of all - I am going to start with an apology. You are in a tough place and I have not been tactful at all. If some of my comments have been hurtful and not constructive I am sorry. You came here to get help. 

Let me start with this. From everything you write you have a fixable marriage. I would let him say his goodbye to her provided they do it in a public place with no alcohol. And I would then claim the moral high ground and say "I agreed you could have closure - the book is now closed unless you want to end the marriage". And be firm on that. Do not let him have you and her. That will be toxic for you. BTW - you have some huge leverage to enforce that - more on that later. 

You need to have a no holds barred conversation with him that goes something like this. I believe that WE can create the romance that has been missing from our marriage for a long, long time. And I WANT to do that. In the beginning it will be awkward. And we will work through that. And as we do you will realize that you are the most important thing in my life. Not the kids. Not my job. Not my hobbies or family or friends. YOU. And it isn't going to be easy for either of us. I only need to see that you are committed to making it work because we BOTH have some work to do for this to be the physically intimate marriage we both deserve. 

And then shut up and let him talk. And I don't care what he says. When he finishes slowly undress him and then yourself. Because the FIRST time after discovery day is going to be the hardest. Might as well put it behind you. 





munchie said:


> @MEM11363 - I really appreciate hearing the male perspective on this so far, so thanks for your comments.
> 
> Today is a particularly tough day for me because I think everything is starting to hit H and I feel like he is slipping away rather than coming closer. He's called me four times and each time, his voice sounds more forlorn. He seems to be experiencing deep remorse at the way in which he ended things with OW and said he feels the need to say something to her or explain his actions. He also said he needs to think about me in a different way going forward, because he had already placed me in a particular compartment in his mind. WTF??!!
> 
> ...


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

@ MEM11363 - Both you and Mommy2 have said very intelligent and useful things. Thank you so much! 

I guess this is a "wait and see" situation. It makes me anxious thinking about this all day and is a complete distraction. I just hope that we haven't reached the point of no return. H claims that we haven't, but I know he has an addictive personality (not to drugs or alcohol -- just things that he likes, i.e., Facebook Scrabble) and once he's "addicted" - it takes a lot of energy for him to wean himself off. Maybe the honest truth is that the A isn't something he's ready to wean himself from, but is afraid of those feelings or afraid to tell me. 

He's reminded me many times throughout this entire thing that he's been a devoted husband and father and that the A didn't "take anything away" from me. He's always at the kid's games and events, he'll pick up dinner or groceries, take care of things around the house, will do anything that I've asked of him, etc. He continues to explain that he's made a commitment to our family - but I wonder if it's out of not wanting to look bad in front of the kids vs. really wanting to stay with me. 

It's hard not to let all of my insecurities take over. He tells me that the A wasn't about the OW, but about how he was feeling about himself and subsequently how she made him feel. I have a nagging fear that he doesn't REALLY want me to help him feel good because then he'll no longer have an excuse for carrying on the A or starting another one. But it's like he's already made his mind up that I won't be able to make him feel like the OW did. Maybe once you have an A, the feelings are intoxicating and you have to continue doing it - if not with OW #1 ... then someone else. Do you think that's true?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Oaks,
I disagree.




oaksthorne said:


> She is guilty of being victimized by a liar in an affair fog, period. He could have told her that he was interested in another woman, but he wasn't going to go there, and that they should work out their problems together, to prevent problems of that kind in the future. He didn't; he chose to lie and cheat, and he is 100% responsible for that. She is guilty of trusting him. If he had taken that course there would have been no A, there would have been a renewal of their relationship, but he wanted to have the A and he talked himself into it . He is not a victim of anything but selfishness, dishonestly, lust and self deception. There is no justification for an A, period. The person who chooses to do that is dead wrong. He entered in to a contract with his wife to "forsake all others". There is no addendum that says " unless some other hot chick strokes my ego" A cheater needs to take full respondiblilty for his actions or it's probable that another affair could happen.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I think some of you are missing the point.

I am in a VERY similar (almost identical) situation as the OP's husband was. We went 2 and half years and had sex twice in that time frame. I had voiced my needs to her in every way I knew how. Nothing changed.

The advice I got on this board was good. But puzzling. People assumed that she is exhausted because of work, and the 2 young children and therefore puts sex on the back burner. To me (and apparently only to me as when I typed this people said it was weird) it is a betrayal. It is a betrayal to our vows and to our love. The vast amount of cruelty to know somebody intimate desires and needs and to coldly ignore them is mind boggling. Further to that, to chastize one for seeking intimacy elsewhere is down right cruel.

Yes there are other options...but after voicing your needs numerous times all that's left is seperation and divorce. That is NOT something to be undertaken so easily especially with young children involved.

In my particular case my mind is filled with the prospect of cheating DAILY because I am not fulfilled and I'm starting to feel great resentment.

I don't think it's OP's fault that her husband cheated. I really don't. But I can surely empathize with where he's coming from.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Munchie, you sound like a well balanced, introspective (willing to look critically at yourself) woman.

But here’s the thing. While we do affect other’s emotions we aren’t responsible for how they respond to them. If we hold ourselves responsible for another’s behaviour where does it end?

Just like you, your H had choices.

Good luck to you both.

Bob


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

The majority of the responses on this Forum have been thoughtful, eye-opening and have made me think about a lot of things from a completely difference perspective. My biggest regret is that I didn't seek out or embrace these concepts many years ago. 

Ironically, now my H is completely freaking out. He's now on his 7th phone call to me today and sounds like he's hyperventilating. He keeps saying "I can't think ... I can't focus ... I can't breathe, I'm going out of my mind ... we have to get away." Is this some type of "A-withdrawal"? I want to help him somehow - but I'm not sure what to do. 

@sinister - perhaps you could send your W a link to some of these forums or threads. Had I done this sooner (like 15 years ago?) - maybe things would have turned out differently. I know I was either clueless or in denial for a very long time.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Munchie,
I believe at core he wants to stay married. I also believe he is currently overcome with emotions, loss, sadness, guilt and suppressed but real anger. Anger at himself and at you. 

He is going to have a "withdrawal" phase. And you are going to have to use a careful mix of fear and love to help him through that. It is also true that you are going to have to have to "rewire" how the two of you relate to each other physically. 

I will take you on a quick stroll down memory lane to give you some context for wiring the physical part of relationship. 

From the start my W and I had a very sexual relationship. During the first year we lived together which is now 20+ years ago we had two "defining" incidents both of which showed both insensitivity and selfishness on MY part. One was me encouraging her to "grope" me. The other was me "groping" her. In both cases she reached a breaking point and sharply told me "I HATE when you do that". And in both cases I had an immediate lightbulb moment, apologized sincerely and quite literally never did those things again. 

And me not doing those things allowed us to both be highly affectionate with each other in a non-sexual way. And we simply both de-coupled that non-sexual affection from foreplay. To this day when I come up behind her at the sink and wrap my arms around her she fully relaxes back into me. She loves it. I love it. If she hadn't slammed me two decades ago that wouldn't be possible. And if I hadn't really "listened" and taken her seriously we would be in a bad place. 

If I put my mind to it I could write a couple dozen things I KNOW turn my W off. And a couple dozen that turn her on. Can you write such a list for him? If not, you can quickly get there. I can tell you that as of today he is not able to write a very good list for you. And I get that this might not sound romantic but the truth is when you get really good at this stuff, eventually it comes naturally and one day you wake up the sun is shining, the birds are singing and you are BOTH happy. 

I know you don't want to go back to that place where you "tolerate" a minimal amount of sex. Because you will never feel safe there. And he needs to know that. 




munchie said:


> @ MEM11363 - Both you and Mommy2 have said very intelligent and useful things. Thank you so much!
> 
> I guess this is a "wait and see" situation. It makes me anxious thinking about this all day and is a complete distraction. I just hope that we haven't reached the point of no return. H claims that we haven't, but I know he has an addictive personality (not to drugs or alcohol -- just things that he likes, i.e., Facebook Scrabble) and once he's "addicted" - it takes a lot of energy for him to wean himself off. Maybe the honest truth is that the A isn't something he's ready to wean himself from, but is afraid of those feelings or afraid to tell me.
> 
> ...


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

sinnister said:


> I think some of you are missing the point.
> 
> I am in a VERY similar (almost identical) situation as the OP's husband was. We went 2 and half years and had sex twice in that time frame. I had voiced my needs to her in every way I knew how. Nothing changed.
> 
> ...


Just out of curiosity, when you voiced your concerns how did you do that? Were you straightforward? Did you tell her that you were thinking of cheating because your needs were unfulfilled? Did you actually sit her down when you could have her full attention?

I must have rolled my movie thousands of times to try to remember when he could have talked to me and i cannot recall not even one single instance. He worked like 10hrs a day,played tennis 3 times a week even after we had the baby. It was not easy on me but I did not object because I knew for health reasons he had to get his exercize.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

munchie said:


> Ironically, now my H is completely freaking out. He's now on his 7th phone call to me today and sounds like he's hyperventilating. He keeps saying "I can't think ... I can't focus ... I can't breathe, I'm going out of my mind ... we have to get away." Is this some type of "A-withdrawal"? I want to help him somehow - but I'm not sure what to do.


Probably due to a massive amount of stress. And maybe he suddenly has a great fear of loss, of you, his home and his life as he knew it. I’d guess he’s experiencing both guilt and remorse at the same time.

Many people are totally unaware of the consequences of their actions until they look back on them. That’s the time they often “wake up” and become aware.

In a way it’s a good sign. Tell him to either take two weeks holiday or to report in sick. Or if he works for a really good company he should tell his boss he has problems at home and needs time off. He may well be having a nervous breakdown. Good things can come out of those if handled correctly.

Bob


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## oaksthorne (Mar 4, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Oaks,
> I disagree.


Read " Not Just Friends" It will hopefully help you see this from the other person's POV. There is no justification, none. An A is assault on the soul, nothing justifies it. Feeling justified is what allows it to happen in the first place. It's like killing a fly with a shot gun, there are a thousand better and less destructive ways to address the problem. Thank you for the direct response to me.

Oak


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## oaksthorne (Mar 4, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Probably due to a massive amount of stress. And maybe he suddenly has a great fear of loss, of you, his home and his life as he knew it. I’d guess he’s experiencing both guilt and remorse at the same time.
> 
> Many people are totally unaware of the consequences of their actions until they look back on them. That’s the time they often “wake up” and become aware.
> 
> ...


My H went through this. It all hit him in the face. It was how I knew that he cared about our marriage.:iagree:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sin,
You have other choices. You have chosen to accept being involuntarily celibate (InCel) instead of rocking the boat in a scary way. And that is solely a personal choice. 

You choose to "talk" to your W about how you feel. It has to be obvious at this point she actually doesn't care how you feel. And that is a remarkably common situation. However, if you really are a good partner she does however care very much what you "do". Or more to the point what you "stop" doing. 

My very happy marriage is based on a simple premise. 
1. You are overall my highest priority
2. I "get" you and am very "good" at you, which makes me the ideal non-sexual companion (and hopefully a decent sex partner as well)
3. Treat me poorly and I do not "add" anger, sullen behavior or any other flavor of being a jerk. I simply begin to do less and less. And ultimately I am present less and less. 

The first 2 parts of this can actually be quite difficult. I had no idea at the start how important it was to give her a humorous verbal spanking when she fitness tests me. Nor how important it was to be physically playful with her - wrestling etc. And for sure I had no idea that being edgy/dominant in bed was a big plus. I thought anything other than gentle sex would provoke a huge negative reaction. Quite the opposite is true. 

Once you nail 1 and 2, (3) simply becomes a test of strength and balls. Executed properly 3 causes her to realize that you will demand respect when it is not given. And that failure to respect you does not result in an angry tirade for which you later have to apologize. Rather failure to respect and prioritize YOU, produces the worst possible outcome for HER - being deprioritized. 




sinnister said:


> I think some of you are missing the point.
> 
> I am in a VERY similar (almost identical) situation as the OP's husband was. We went 2 and half years and had sex twice in that time frame. I had voiced my needs to her in every way I knew how. Nothing changed.
> 
> ...


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

Munchie, I wouldn't recommend the "closure" meeting. There is no such thing as closure. Our therapist has talked a lot to my husband and I about how it's fallacy. My H also felt bad about how things were left with the OW, just a no contact letter from both of them and that's it. Really, what he wants, is for her not to think badly of him and that he just "used" her. However, I pointed out that in reality they both used each other. At the time he thought he loved her, but now several months later he realizes he didn't. He loved the fantasy. So what good would come from talking to the OW? Anything a DS could possibly say to make the OW feel better, would make the LS feel like $#!t. My H has finally realized that having one last communication would be a mistake, showing the OW that her feelings are more important than mine. Which, by not seeking closure, he's proving my feelings rank first.

Sinnister.... have you actually told your wife that you're thinking of having an affair? If you have and she's still not wanting to have sex, then maybe I could understand your feelings that an affair can be justified. However, if you have not specifically stated that the prospect of cheating is on your mind daily, then she doesn't know the severity of the problem.

There can be no justification for an affair unless the LS has been specifically told by their spouse that he/she is considering an affair. If the LS is told and still chooses to ignore the situation or not seek counseling, then declare it an open marriage. At least that way, if one person gets to seek sexual or emotional fulfillment elsewhere, then the other person can too.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Your husband put an awful lot on the line for this A and he's not out of the woods by a long shot. Maybe you forgive and take him back but he's still got a $300K client that he risks losing should his indiscretion come to light. No wonder he's hyperventilating. Another great example of why folks shouldn't fool around with clients or co-workers.


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

@unbelievable - you're so right. He obviously was caught up in emotion and wasn't considering the implications of everything. He even admits it was an insane thing to do. When I first found out about the A - I told my H that I considered contacting the OW's boss. He got defensive and mad that I would ruin someone's (the OW's) life like that. Obviously, he and the OW weren't thinking about how they were ruining MY life while carrying on their little romance. Truthfully I'm just not that vindictive, but I could cause trouble in a big way if I really wanted to. 

After calling me numerous times today and sounding freaked out each time, H went to the gym to release some of his stress and mental anguish. He called me afterward to say that he felt a lot better and his head was clearer. I suggested that he might be going through a type of withdrawal, which he immediately discounted, but secretively I'm glad he's stewing in his own mess for a little while.


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## mommy2 (Oct 27, 2009)

I actually would suggest him NOT getting to have his final goodbye. Perhaps he can right her a letter/email, that you read also and send that. Or maybe a phone call, but I wouldn't want them to meet. When I found out, initially my H wanted to leave the house to go check on her. (it was her H that found out - he kicked her out of house immediately & then called my H) My H is the one that told me. He had been talking to her that morning via phone after it all came down. He told me he just needed to leave for a little while to check on her, etc. I wouldn't let him go. I told him that we'd been married 14 years and that he owed me that. To stay and talk with me, not go to her. He didn't. After a few hours he decided he was going to stay with me and work on our marriage to see if it could be saved. He did call her and they spoke one last time. He told her he was staying with me. I don't know what else was said, but that was the last time they spoke. 

I too, had become not attracted to my H. (which is crazy because he's a very handsome guy!) My lust and desire for him was reignited. I think it was that raw, animal instinct that took over. (mine, mine - you can't have him! LOL) Like I said, we had sex that same night (AMAZING) 

I think you need to continue talking like you are. IF you can, I think it would be great he could take some time off and just you two go away. I think that would be wonderful - "date" each other again and fall in love all over again!

P.S. Your H sounds alot like mine in some ways. (addictive personality) The OW in my case is who made the first move toward a PA. She kissed him - he freaked out and left. But that's him, he can easily be persuaded so she said all the right things, I am sure that convinced him to have the A. As others have said, the A is the cowardly way out. What they should do is separate and divorce. Well, that may be true but part of me is very glad my H didn't. I think he still loved me and our family and truly, was too scared to lose that. (he adores his kids) The A gave him both. He was home every night, never missed anything with the kids, was with us all weekend, etc. But he was getting affection and attention that he craved from someone else. NOW he gets it ALL here baby!! :smthumbup:


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

@Mommy2 - I REALLY feel a lot better after reading all the advice from you, MEM11363 and several others. When H comes home tonight, I'm going to talk to him about not having a final conversation (especially in-person!) with OW. Saffron correctly said _"Really, what he wants, is for her not to think badly of him and that he just "used" her _ and I think that's true. Who cares what she thinks at this point. Hopefully it's over and done with anyway.

I'm so glad I found this forum. It's been helpful to get everyone's thoughts and opinions, because I didn't want to talk to friends or family about this. I feel strongly that my marriage is salvageable. It was good to read that others have been able to use a spouse's A to make major changes in their marriages that resulted in better relationships. I'm hoping I can report back with encouraging news of my success, too.


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## mommy2 (Oct 27, 2009)

I am glad to hear that! Thank you!

One other thing I thought I should mention - the next morning after D-day, I awoke and heard my H crying. (I think he was trying not to let me hear). I asked what was wrong and he said he was sorry but it was hard because the mornings is when they would text each other and he looked forward to those texts every morning. He was sorry, it was just hard that 1st morning. That hurt like Hell to hear BUT I promised him that I would do everything in my power so that he couldn't wait to wake up and hear sweet nothings from ME! And, I threw it something she could never have given him in the morning.......LOL. That's the only time he ever seemed to miss her or their relationship. Again, it wasn't her or the sex. I know she was a substitute for me - offering him what I should have been and wasn't. 

Yes, I agree with you on the final conversation. She's a big girl, she knew the risk she was taking with a married man SO if it ended abruptly - Oh well! She knew the consequences and that it would end eventually!

Good luck to you. I hope your marriage not only survives but comes out happier and stronger!!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

munchie said:


> @Mommy2 - I REALLY feel a lot better after reading all the advice from you, MEM11363 and several others. When H comes home tonight, I'm going to talk to him about not having a final conversation (especially in-person!) with OW. Saffron correctly said _"Really, what he wants, is for her not to think badly of him and that he just "used" her _ and I think that's true. Who cares what she thinks at this point. Hopefully it's over and done with anyway.
> 
> I'm so glad I found this forum. It's been helpful to get everyone's thoughts and opinions, because I didn't want to talk to friends or family about this. I feel strongly that my marriage is salvageable. It was good to read that others have been able to use a spouse's A to make major changes in their marriages that resulted in better relationships. I'm hoping I can report back with encouraging news of my success, too.


Munchie,

Consider me an admirer of your open mind on this issue.

It sounds like you're a well-balanced centered individual who realizes that "you will be ok" no matter how this turns out.

Believe me, that is invaluable.

I am - literally - stunned at the number of spouses who simply blameshift/rationalize/ignore the long-term concerns of their significant others. They're often quite consistent.

Only in these middle years of my life have I come to really understand how to communicate with women. And, it's not at all how men communicate with each other.

Your husband has been going at it 100% wrong for all these years. This board is literally littered with men who thought they'd be "strong" yet whine from time to time. And, when they whine, it's mostly about sex.

What he needed to do was to make you feel sexy.

Let him know how to do that. And, don't take the position some females do that, "If I have to tell you, it's not worth it"

Like hell it's not.

If you tell him AND he does it, it means you have a committed partner. Now, no one wants to ride herd on someone else and no one needs to be micromanaged. BUT.... at these key teaching moments in a relationship, brutal honesty is the key ingredient.

What do you have to lose about telling him the truth?

It's a turn off for me when you do x, x, x, x, and x. Please minimize them.

It turns me ON when you do x, x, x, x, and x. Maximize them.

What you will find is that you will desire him to minimize those things that make him feel like your child.

You will want him to maximize those things that make him feel like your man.

Take a deep breath and get about it.

Take that part of your mind that thinks of him with her and simply stuff it somewhere - at least for now. There will be plenty of time for post-mortems at some point in the future when your relationship is safe.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

munchie said:


> He said that he hasn't slept with me since he's been sleeping with her and insists that I didn't even notice because we go months without sex. He told me he felt like I didn't have an interest in him anymore and decided that he would stop bothering me for sex and intimacy. She obviously filled a void in his life.


Just echoing MEM that this is a huge factor at work here. Yes indeed he could have said "I am about to cheat on you, please stop me"... but it's ultra rare that people do that.

He does seem to have just backed down from you and nice guyed for so long that you lost sexual interest in him.


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

Conrad said:


> What do you have to lose about telling him the truth?
> 
> It's a turn off for me when you do x, x, x, x, and x. Please minimize them.
> 
> It turns me ON when you do x, x, x, x, and x. Maximize them.


I've done that a bit in the past -- but my H tends to become a annoyed. I think he wants to feel like he knows what to do without me having to tell him. Once in a while he'll actually ask me - but I keep quiet because I don't want him to feel like he's been "doing it wrong" all these years. Yes ... I know it's passive aggressive behavior - but after 4 years of dating and 20 years of marriage - it's what we've fallen into.

We've resumed intimate relations again - and it's been good (and fun!) :smthumbup: but I have a sense that he's somewhat reserved now -- it feels like he wants to enjoy being with me, but has his defenses are up because he's waiting to discover that I'm not really sincere in my intentions so he can say "Ah - HA!! I *knew* ALL ALONG that this isn't really who you are..." As for me, I'm still preoccupied with thoughts of OW and wondering if he's comparing me to her. 

I know we have to reach a new normal for our relationship - but how long will it take? I'm obsessed with thinking my H and the OW are talking and/or corresponding without my knowledge even though he claims they're not. I _want_ to believe him, but it's hard.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Take a bow. I mean it because you deserve it. And below you have clearly and concisely captured the core issue that killed your sex life. Insecurity. His. He was resistant and defensive to feedback. Enough so that eventually you perceived his questions more as requests for reassurance than a sincere desire to improve the experience for you. Talk about conflicted. Anyone would feel conflicted when they believe the truth will produce little change in behavior and will also provoke a defensive/angry response. 

That said, I will attempt to "fully" balance here. When things are "off" and frequency is painfully low for the male, his natural insecurities are ALREADY greatly amplified. Telling him what to do more/less of in that context without running into a brick wall of denial and resentment is difficult. 

A long time ago my W and I learned to play a game called "better one/better two". Just like the optometrist converges on your prescription - you do something and say "better one"? and then do a small variant and ask "or better 2".
This could be:
- shifting the location you are working a bit or
- the amount of pressure or
- the speed
- the direction - vertical/horizontal/diagonal 
- the body part: finger tips, thumbs or finger nails - some people love a mixed massage/back scratch

At some future point you can play "better one/better two" during foreplay or even sex. Great game. Some people are very reluctant to "ask" you to do it differently. But it is rare that anyone is uncomfortable simply saying which of two touch patters they like better. 

For us, we start with a non-sexual massage and once relaxed an inner thigh and/or butt massage can be a huge turn on. The thing is - that only happens after a lot of non-sensual/vanilla massage touch. And you definitely keep doing the better 1/better 2 while doing the sensual massage. 



munchie said:


> I've done that a bit in the past -- but my H tends to become a annoyed. I think he wants to feel like he knows what to do without me having to tell him. Once in a while he'll actually ask me - but I keep quiet because I don't want him to feel like he's been "doing it wrong" all these years. Yes ... I know it's passive aggressive behavior - but after 4 years of dating and 20 years of marriage - it's what we've fallen into.
> 
> We've resumed intimate relations again - and it's been good (and fun!) :smthumbup: but I have a sense that he's somewhat reserved now -- it feels like he wants to enjoy being with me, but has his defenses are up because he's waiting to discover that I'm not really sincere in my intentions so he can say "Ah - HA!! I *knew* ALL ALONG that this isn't really who you are..." As for me, I'm still preoccupied with thoughts of OW and wondering if he's comparing me to her.
> 
> I know we have to reach a new normal for our relationship - but how long will it take? I'm obsessed with thinking my H and the OW are talking and/or corresponding without my knowledge even though he claims they're not. I _want_ to believe him, but it's hard.


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## paramore (Jan 11, 2011)

it isn't your fault he stepped outside of the marriage, hands down. Your are both responsible for what happened IN the marriage, he is responsible for his behaviors outside of the marriage.


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

Although H tells me that he's not in contact with the OW anymore except for business-related matters (which he claims he's in the process of training one of his employees to deal with) -- I'm not convinced there's been no discussion between them or that the romantic entanglement is over. I have no proof ... but I'm afraid to trust anything he says!

H could very easily have set up an additional e-mail account and kept things going with me none the wiser. He laughs when I mention it and insists that the A is over and done with ... but there's no way for me to know for sure. I also keep looking at the calendar to ask him about particular evenings when they may have been together. He gets annoyed at my constant questions and doesn't want to talk about it. It's possible that I'm spending more time thinking about OW than he is ... but I can't help it. Now I'm thinking about sending OW an e-mail. I know my H would be REALLY mad at me if I did if he found out -- but then I would know that she told him -- which would mean they're talking about things other than business. Is this a bad idea? Should I just try to push the A into the back of my mind and move forward?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You have two completely different strategies that need to be worked. One is simple, quick and harsh - I will refer to this as your "defense". The other is more difficult, and in the long run MUCH more important. 

Your "defense" is female specific. Meaning it is targeted at this one other female who is competing for your male. 

Your "offense" will reduce the chance that any other female can bed your husband. 

The offense is finding a way to tell him ALL the stuff you need to tell him to make a sexual relationship good for you. 

The defense goes like this. You find a way to have a very short face to face conversation with the other woman. That conversation goes like this:

You: Provided you stay away from any further romantic interactions with my H I will not reach into your life and disrupt it. If I discover any further questionable interactions between you two, I will communicate the specifics of your affair with him to everyone who is important to you. And if you go whining to my H about how I came and talked to you I am going to be very unhappy. And at this point you don't really want to make me any more unhappy. 

Are we perfectly clear on all this?

My guess - she is going to find that prospect quite scary. 

The "offense" is predicated on a good sex life. I have some good news and bad news for you. Women mate for 3 reasons (1) procreation (2) bonding their male partner to them emotionally (3) recreation

Right now (2) is putting your sex drive into fifth gear. And as long as you feel "actively" anxious about the OW you will feel genuine "desire" for your H. Over time as that fear fades and you feel his bond for you has been rebuilt this is all going to come down to (3). 

You need to work on 3. The long term emotional health of your marriage is going to live or die on - you guessed it - 3. 




munchie said:


> Although H tells me that he's not in contact with the OW anymore except for business-related matters (which he claims he's in the process of training one of his employees to deal with) -- I'm not convinced there's been no discussion between them or that the romantic entanglement is over. I have no proof ... but I'm afraid to trust anything he says!
> 
> H could very easily have set up an additional e-mail account and kept things going with me none the wiser. He laughs when I mention it and insists that the A is over and done with ... but there's no way for me to know for sure. I also keep looking at the calendar to ask him about particular evenings when they may have been together. He gets annoyed at my constant questions and doesn't want to talk about it. It's possible that I'm spending more time thinking about OW than he is ... but I can't help it. Now I'm thinking about sending OW an e-mail. I know my H would be REALLY mad at me if I did if he found out -- but then I would know that she told him -- which would mean they're talking about things other than business. Is this a bad idea? Should I just try to push the A into the back of my mind and move forward?


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