# Did i cheat on him?



## shakazulu (Jul 13, 2017)

We dated without having met face to face…

Before we were married, I was introduced to my husband through his cousin in September of 2002. We didn’t meet face to face, the mutual friend gave us each other’s emails and we started corresponding. The emails were more infrequent during the first couple of months. At that time, he was out of the country working, and I was in college in the country. We started slowly, then the emails got more personal, more frequent, and the phone calls started. We both fell in love and started making plans to meet and get married one day. He promised to return in December of 2003, and I was excitedly waiting for him. At this point I was so much in love, I stopped all communication with other men (I had one previous relationship). My husband was in love too, and we were looking forward to getting together. At 22, and he at 25, we were head-over heels into the long distance relationship. At this point, at least to me, the whole point of the relationship was getting together in December 2003, and our conversations were all geared towards that. I was eagerly waiting for him and told my parents and relatives about him and our plans in December. 

In November, he started hinting that he might not make it but he was trying, he gave me reasons about workloads. Because he said he was still trying, I took his word for it. In mid-December, he said he was definitely not coming because of his work, and I was completely heartbroken. I was pressing for details but he would not say. The whole family was asking me what had happened to my boyfriend (we had never met face to face, so there was a lot of ridicule by siblings and friends who thought I was being foolish and gullible). With nowhere else to turn, I phoned the cousin who had introduced us and asked what was going on, if she knew the exact reason why my husband was not coming back. The cousin laughed, told me she had known he would never be able to come several months ago, and advised me to consider seeing other people and taking it one day at a time. She also gave me the exact reason why he could not come (work-visa issues in his host country, I can’t get into them here but it’s complicated). 

Knowing the exact reason, I confronted him and he flatly denied it, gave me the same story of ‘general work issues’. December and January was a tough, painful month for me. My husband and I continued with our emails and phone calls, but I did not trust anything he said at all, and I felt that he was not coming clean with me. Part of me felt that he had changed his mind about us and was looking for a way out. During this time, I really tried to get him to open up but he would not. I was in touch with his cousin, who was still laughing and telling me to take it one day at a time and consider seeing other people. All this time, we still haven’t met face to face.

Around March of 2004, I had a fling with my ex-boyfriend. I still wrote and talked to my husband, although my faith in him was completely gone but I loved him. I ended the fling and somehow things worked out and when the husband came back, we got married (November 2004) and had two kids. I did not tell him anything about the fling. 

He always suspected that something had happened and was always asking me if I had anything to confess to. I always lied and said nothing. In 2013, I got tired of the constant badgering and confessed about the fling. My marriage has been on a downward spiral since then. I have never seen the fling since then and I have been focused and dedicated to my marriage, but my husband badgers me day and night, looks up the fling in the internet. I haven’t seen the fling since I ended it. I understand that I betrayed my husband and he feels hurt by this ordeal, but I don’t know how to make him happy. I have apologized profusely but we seem to be going around in circles. I really love my husband and don’t want to lose him. The questions keep coming, sometimes I can’t recall exact details from 2004, and he always accuses me of lying. Part of me feels that I am being judged harshly (I had one boyfriend before him, and he has had like 6 girlfriends before me, but I don't care about his past)

I don’t want to lose him.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

The fact that you hadn't met yet doesn't really matter.

If the two of you were in a committed relationship with the understanding that neither of you were -- or would be -- seeing other people, then yes, you cheated on him.


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## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

Yup, you cheated on him. Sounds like he was truly busy (his cousin confirmed) but you made a condition in your head to justify your fling. Also, there are too much of "I" in your post

How many exes he has bears 0 thing in this problem that you've created, it's not about the number but about the lies and the chance he'd have had beside with you. 

I know this type of person, most because this is just like me. For some people, cheating is just a deal breaker. What have you tried to fix the marriage? Any counseling ?


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

You did cheat on him, since you strayed from the relationship without informing him. The girlfriends he had before he met you are irrelevant. He was never dishonest with you so long as there was no overlap in those relationships. 

You did the right thing by confessing though, and I hope your husband appreciates that. But it's hard for him to accept, since you held the secret for almost 10 years. 

You should tell him the things you told us: that you love him deeply and that you're afraid of losing him. Reiterate that the relationship was meaningless to you, so it's difficult to remember the details.


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

> At this point I was so much in love, I stopped all communication with other men


I find this interesting. It took you to be so much in love to stop all communication with other men. Maybe I'm naive, but if I'm going out with anyone in any serious way, I don't keep looking for connections with other women. 

Anyway, yes, you cheated. All you had to say was you felt the relationship was going nowhere and you were finishing up with him. Then it would have been fine. You've shown that when things get tough, you bail, instead of facing the issues head on. Not a good characteristic for a successful marriage.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Yes.....you cheated.

But probably the the most upsetting thing for your BH is the fact that you hid it when you finally did get together, and then went about building your lives together for years while lying the whole time.


He feels tricked into the M.....that he would never have M you had you been honest at the time...and that you have essentially stolen years of his life from him, that he could have spent with someone who didn't betray him.

I'm not saying you haven't been a loyal and good wife in the years since.....but that will not matter to him right now if he is thinking the way I described.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Yes, you did cheat.

Oh, and that cousin? She is TOXIC. She is someone that should be left in your past whether your marriage works out or not.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I can understand that you were confused at the time.

It was a virtual relationship really, completely online. The two of you had never met in person. Yet he wanted complete fidelity from you. And when it came time for him to finally meet you, he made excuses to not come. And he has never, ever, given you what seems to be a straight answer as to why.

So you decided that the relationship was going nowhere. I think that most people would have at that point. But the mistake you made was not being upfront with him about it. You should have just told him that you felt like he was game playing. So you were going to start dating other people.

How long has he known now that you cheated?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I also think that you might want to talk to the cousin more. I think the reason she told you to start dating other people is that she knows more about what was going on than she has told you.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

By the letter of the law, you cheated, yes. You had a "fling" with someone who was available when your (soon to be) husband was not.

However... if I were the husband in this, I couldn't say I'd blame you - at least not to the point of looking this guy up on the internet and constantly badgering you about it.

Look, he basically lied to you, or at the very least, kept the truth from you. Why did he do this? Likely to keep you on the hook until he was able to come to you. That's disingenuous, IMHO.

He should have been upfront with you the instant he knew he would not be able to arrive that December. Keeping you thinking he was going to was, frankly, mean. He kept you waiting to start your new life with him. You were excitedely awaiting his arrival - which he KNEW was not going to happen at that time, and it took, what? another year or so?

So yes, you cheated. He did not deserve it, it was not justified. But at the same time, it's hard to blame you that much.

For his part, though, I'd hope that he'd consider it a new start, or the "real" start of the relationship at the point of his arrival. Not "get over it", but chalk it up to circumstances (of which he was a part of) and start fresh with you.


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## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

You cheated 100 billion percent. There isn't even a grey area to chat about.


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## Ghost Rider (Mar 6, 2017)

I guess I'm going to be in the minority here. No, you did not cheat. He was in no way committed to the relationship so you did not owe him commitment, either. In any case, you do not deserve to be abused for this.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

The only mistake you made was not telling this internet stranger who you weren't even sure existed, that you were seeing other people.How can it be possible to cheat on a guy you never met,who cancelled on you in very dubious circumstances but now is playing the victim.
Try and find out from your cousin why he really didn't visit and I have a feeling his attitude may take a sudden turn.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Ghost Rider said:


> He was in no way committed to the relationship so you did not owe him commitment, either.


Making wedding plans is most definitely a commitment. If you change your mind about those plans, that's understandable. But you must inform your partner about your decision before you start dating. Anything short of that is cheating, period.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

shakazulu said:


> We dated without having met face to face…


Is this the custom on planet Zartran?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Any outright or implied promise that is made between the two of you, regardless of whether or not you basically have met or not and has effectively committed you ~ therefore it is cheating!*


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## JustTheFacts (Jun 27, 2017)

Yeah as far as he was concerned, you were engaged so yes you cheated. I do find it highly suspicious about what the cousin said though. Something isn't right here. No excuse. You still cheated. I would just show him the first message that you wrote here and let the chips fall where they may.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

The lying for years is just as bad. All not good.

If I were him my question would be do I really know this person. We were in the throws of love and she gets upset and cheats then she lies to me about it for years. Lets me marry her under false pretenses. Loyalty is probably one of the top 4 needs in marriage. For some of us it is like number 2 after love. You have damaged your marriage and your husband pretty severely. Besides that you have not even acknowledged that it is cheating. All of this stuff is very hard to come back from. 

As I read stuff like this I am more and more aware that people like you really don't understand how loyalty works. You damage it to much and you end up with walk away spouses. If you are a person where loyalty is one of the top 4 needs in a marriage, when you really get to the point where you accept that you don't have it from your spouse it makes the relationship lose it's value. Same as no sex, no emotional intimacy, or no love. For lots of people where these things are a priority the marriage will not survive without them. Loyalty is the one thing in the list that has a finite component in my mind. Break loyalty too much and all the hard work in the world won't convince a person that it won't be broken again. This is why spouses walk away even when the WS has changed. What is having a wife if she isn't loyal to you. That means telling the truth because what you did is wrong and caused him pain. Not protecting yourself when you don't deserve protecting. 

This is why it is so important to protect it. I would work hard to understand it and try to protect it, hopefully the damage isn't already done too much.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Were you engaged to be married before the fling with the XBF?

Did you both agree to be exclusive with each other before the fling with the XBF?

If you answer yes to one or both of these questions, then you cheated.

If no to both then I would not consider it cheating.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

i do not understand the basis for this relationship.. Was it a culture where arranged marriage is common? Because here in the USA, i would NOT call this a confirmed monogamous relationship. It was an online romance at the most, and the fact that he bailed on you when you were finally supposed to meet, would have told me the relationship was in fact a fake/phony one. 

You hear about this all the time, where the mate you think you have online, turns out to be a 55 year old married guy, or a woman pretending to be a guy. There is even a TV show here on it, called "Catfish". 

So when he failed to meet you after YEARS of online communicating, the "relationship" was off in my mind. And then you did not cheat, because there WAS no relationship.

I would take this one to the grave and NEVER mention it to the guy.


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## pbj2016 (May 7, 2017)

Guess you didn't read: she already confessed to the fling. Now her husband is constantly stalking the dude. He needs to grow up. The thing is the cousin probably already told him something happened years ago which Is was why he was suspicious.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

He was a liar. He knew three months before the time for him to visit that he was not going to come. 

And he never intended to return at that time. So... why would he lie to you?

And the cousin did *not *confirm that the reason for him not coming was valid.

All the cousin could confirm was what he had told the cousin, which could have been a load of lies.

Hardly the best basis for a relationship, never mind a marriage.

Did you cheat? Probably.

Did he lie to you a number of times? Definitely. 

Both issues need to be addressed before you can move forward.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

One thing I hope some reading this thread get out of this is that it makes no sense to put your faith in a long term internet based relationship. Until you meet the person and date them in real life, you have no idea what that person is really like.

IMO, her then internet boyfriend lied to her about why he did not show up when he said he did. I doubt it had anything to do with work. He was too dishonest about it for something as straight forward as work to be the reason.


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## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

It boiled down to this OP, was the relationship exclusive or not ?
Because if it was, then you definitely cheated. LDR is hard, why didn't you tell him that you wanted to see other people first before the fling ?

I feel like you want to justify your cheating with his work-visa problem, but even you know the visa problem was complicated which means he could not come


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## shakazulu (Jul 13, 2017)

Thanks to everyone for those thoughtful comments. I was faithfully waiting for him to show up in Dec 2003 as we had agreed. This would never have happened. I was a nervous wreck at that time. He finally returned in October 2004, we got married in Nov 2004. I understand I cheated, should have been honest with him; I really want to make this work and make it up to him. I don’t know how. He is hurting and is betrayed and detailed questions keep coming back. I am willing to go to MC but he has flatly refused.

My past indiscretion has plagued my marriage since confession in 2013. There are many triggers. For instance, because of the constant internet googling of the OM, my husband always knows what he is up to and wants to talk about this all the time, which always ends up with the badgering and torments about the past lies and betrayal. I understand, he is in pain. I am not the person he thought I was. 

It turns out that the OM has a business relationship with my brother (I don’t know how this happened, I was shocked that they even know each other, I never EVER introduced the two, I never discussed the OM with my brother) so this now puts a strain in my marriage. This revelation came to me as a result of the internet searches by my husband. 

In 2015, while visiting my brother’s family, my brother was speaking on the phone with OM (they both live thousands of miles away from us). My brother turned to me and said ‘ Guess what, Nancy is visiting; Nancy, your old friend Ted wants to say hi’. I said ‘no thanks’ and without much details, I told my brother I wanted no part of his involvement with OM. I did not tell my husband about this at the time. When I later did, he was FURIOUS he asked me for a divorce immediately. 

I love my husband, I want to save my marriage, but issues of the OM constantly plague us. I am willing to do ANYTHING, but with the many triggers, we are always going round in circles. Otherwise, we had a great marriage, we are compatible in all other ways i.e. financially, emotionally, sexually; and we have two kids – ages 10 and 9.


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## pbj2016 (May 7, 2017)

Cheating is cheating. Yes, his reactions are a little troubling to me. Maybe he thinks there is more to it since you have hidden the truth for so long. Maybe he feels like he was suckered in. I am curious as to what really happened on his end that he didn't come see you. You are left holding the bag of guilt while he might not be so innocent. 

While you should have broken it off when he stood you up for a visit, you didn't. I am also a little perplexed how you could have an exclusive relationship with someone you never met in person. Maybe I am projecting here because that is not something I would consider for myself. 

When you got back together you should have let him know. But you didn't. You certainly should not have gotten married without disclosure. 

I'm not sure that the outcome would have been different though. He sounds like the type to hold a grudge or as leverage against you. 

Tell him you screwed up by not telling him when you got back together. You thought he wasn't that interested because he didn't come see you when planned. You can't live with that over your head for the rest of your life. It is unhealthy for him and you. Tell him he was always plan A. Other man was and isn't now plan B. 

Ask him to forgive you. If there are other indiscretions even implied you should either own up to them now or take it to your grave. If he won't forgive, ask for a divorce. Life is too short to live with a mean soul.


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## leon2100 (May 13, 2015)

nope


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Here is a book for you to read.....

How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful by Linda J. MacDonald 

And there is one for both of you to read......


After the Affair, Updated Second Edition: Healing the Pain and Rebuilding Trust When a Partner Has Been Unfaithful by Janis A. Spring

He won't go to counseling. Maybe he'll care enough about your relationship to at least read a book.

Your husband has crossed over from being a person with a legitimate issue to being an angry and probably abusive man. When a person holds on to something like this instead of working through it can finding a way to forgive and move on, it is because he is getting some kind of benefit from it. The benefit is mostly like that it helps him feel superior to you and gives him an excuse to express his anger and beat you up emotionally.

My suggestion to you is to tell him that it's time for him to make a decision. Either he works with you to heal and forgive, our it's time to end the marriage.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

The real question is, why did you lie about it? Sometimes what TAM likes do, is weigh who was worse in a relationship. So, as you can see, some people will delve into maybe he cheated as well, what does the toxic cousin know and then say find out and berate him about his hypocrisy. Yep, maybe he did cheat, maybe he was scared or a million other different reasons just like your explanations in this very thread. Still, at the end of the day, he asked you about it and you lied for nearly a decade. His reactions sounds very unhealthy, but I can't comment because I don't know how it is to have a nearly decade old lie revealed in my marriage.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

leon2100 said:


> nope


LOL, if you can't even back up your assertion with some kind of reasoning, you should just admit defeat and not even bother posting.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

This is one of the many reasons why long term online long distance relationships are very unwise. You never even met him, and yet you married only a month after first meeting.


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## JustTheFacts (Jun 27, 2017)

It doesn't look like he's going to be able to let this go ever by not wanting to deal with it at get healing. You have to decide if you want to stay in a marriage for the rest of your life where your spouse constantly will use this against you to control you.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

OP what have you done specially to try to heal him? I ask because you may think you have done stuff but it might not be the most effective stuff. The books posted on here might help you.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Not married and merely discussing the notion of getting married someday is not a commitment and not an engagement.

It's certainly not cheating.

Your now husband merely had some competition for your affection and interest. You probably should have told him at the time {and maybe he would have hurried up to get over and meet your faster had you done that}, but he wasn't your husband or your betrothed so it really wasn't his business. A man should presume a woman of high value has many suitors. 


You are posting on a betrayal forum so there is going to be an overall tendency to call everything infidelity. But "dating" is "dating" and about courting a woman {and a young women SHOULD assess many options} and until he actually meets you, gets down on a knee and proposes to you {or you otherwise make a marriage commitment to one another pursuant to your customs} you aren't his property or beholden to him. Love is war. Dating is war and these romanticism notions of putting the cart before the horse where everyone thinks dating is monogamous when by definition, it's not, is getting ridiculous. 

Also consider this was 2003. They only had email to communicate with one another. Imagine this is your daughter and her husband is trying to be a jerk to your daughter because she briefly dated someone else in the spring of 2004 after you watched your daughter waste 18 or so months {September 2002-Spring 2004) of her prime dating years having a long distance email relationship with some guy it seemed she'd never met {and in the spring of 2004 who knew if she'd ever meet}. Would you really be that sympathetic towards his plight? I'd be telling him to grow up ~ he's a dad now and he's got more responsibilities than crying over 13 year old spilt milk. If he carried on, I'd insist he take a lie detector test to see what he was doing from September 2002 until he actually made it over, met and married my daughter in December 2004. 

If he's a Christian, it's also not biblical grounds for divorce. She didn't break any vows {according to the story}.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> OP what have you done specially to try to heal him? I ask because you may think you have done stuff but it might not be the most effective stuff. The books posted on here might help you.


This is 39 year old man with a loving wife and 2 children. He should "heal" himself instead of feeling like he was entitled to owning his wife before he ever met her or proposed to her. She PICKED him, accepted his marriage proposal, married the guy and bore him 2 presumably healthy {no small feat} children ~~ this is something to cherish and honor.

I hope one or both of his kids are daughters. I do and saw a few men treat them like property. It'll teach him a thing or two. The ages 16-21 will drive him crazy. 

Just a thought, you don't think there is any way he could be cheating on you? This could be passive aggression and feigned resentment so he can rationalize and justify his own {past or present} cheating behavior, or worse, move on to some affair partner while blaming you. Just sounds ridiculous for a man in his position to be so upset over his then 22 year old wife, before he met her, keeping her options open.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> This is 39 year old man with a loving wife and 2 children. He should "heal" himself instead of feeling like he was entitled to owning his wife before he ever met her or proposed to her. She PICKED him, accepted his marriage proposal, married the guy and bore him 2 presumably healthy {no small feat} children ~~ this is something to cherish and honor.


And lied to him for 10 years. All spouses are entitled to the truth. She can be indigent like you suggest or she can try to work on healing the trust that was broken. Personally I think she would do better to work on fixing the trust.


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## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

Quality said:


> Not married and merely discussing the notion of getting married someday is not a commitment and not an engagement.
> 
> It's certainly not cheating.
> 
> Your now husband merely had some competition for your affection and interest. You probably should have told him at the time {and maybe he would have hurried up to get over and meet your faster had you done that}, but he wasn't your husband or your betrothed so it really wasn't his business. A man should presume a woman of high value has many suitors.


How very demeaning to women, and this comes from a woman. The "high value" woman in your idea seems like she hails from the 1920s to catch a husband and get the MRS degree instead of building relationship that is based on love and trust. If i were a guy and a girl that i date say "No ring=No loyalty" i'd say bye bye so fast. Why would i propose to someone whose loyalty merely based on status ?
See, the purpose of dating is to know the other's personality and to create a path to more serious relationship, if someone says to me that it's an exclusive relationship but he actively looking for "trade up", it'd say one thing about him, LIAR. And it isn't possible to build a path to marriage on your own while your date is also checking out other path to marriage.




Quality said:


> You are posting on a betrayal forum so there is going to be an overall tendency to call everything infidelity. But "dating" is "dating" and about courting a woman {and a young women SHOULD assess many options} and until he actually meets you, gets down on a knee and proposes to you {or you otherwise make a marriage commitment to one another pursuant to your customs} *you aren't his property* or beholden to him. Love is war. Dating is war and these romanticism notions of putting the cart before the horse where everyone thinks dating is monogamous when by definition, it's not, is getting ridiculous.


There's dating and there's exclusive dating. The difference is huge


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

I didn't read the entire thread but what the hey. I am always amazed how many believe if you have one date, you're somehow in an exclusive relationship. I've concluded this is as more the attitude of men than women. At any rate, and in my opinion, a exclusive relationship is like a binding contract; there has to be a mutual agreement (i.e. a meeting of the minds). You had no such element in your arrangement and nothing even to indicate he wasn't going to ride off into the sunset. So no, you didn't cheat and what you did while he kept his options open, is none of his business. Ask him this, "whould you'd had the old work excuse is Scarlett Johansson was on the other end of the line.


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## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

VladDracul said:


> I didn't read the entire thread but what the hey. I am always amazed how many believe if you have one date, you're somehow in an exclusive relationship. I've concluded this is as more the attitude of men than women. At any rate, and in my opinion, a exclusive relationship is like a binding contract; there has to be a mutual agreement (i.e. a meeting of the minds). You had no such element in your arrangement and nothing even to indicate he wasn't going to ride off into the sunset. So no, you didn't cheat and what you did while he kept his options open, is none of his business. Ask him this, "whould you'd had the old work excuse is Scarlett Johansson was on the other end of the line.


They had already been on serious path though, "We both fell in love and started making plans to meet and get married one day".
That sounds exclusive. Also this word "At this point, at least to me, the whole point of the relationship was getting together in December 2003, and our conversations were all geared towards that."

If he shut down MC then keep talking to him about his plan for the future because status quo doesn't sound good enough for him and for you


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lets just ignore the cheating for the moment. She lied about it for 10 years even when he directly asked her. Why would she lie if she didn't think in her own mind that it was cheating. She knew. Honestly I think we are past the "is this cheating" point. There is damage now from this because she was dishonest continually. That needs to be fixed.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

karr99 said:


> "We both fell in love and started making plans to meet and get married one day".
> That sounds exclusive. Also this word "At this point, at least to me, the whole point of the relationship was getting together in December 2003, and our conversations were all geared towards that."


My belief is her romantic interest was lowered when he kept ****ing around on the planned meetup. Somebody else showed interest and she went for it. Her interest was rejuvenated when he got off his azz and quit making excuses. Who can blame her for not standing around while he got off square one. (btw, buying as unseen tangible item is risky enough. Buying an unseen relationship is outrageously careless and potentially dangerous.)
Moreover, any guy marrying a girl and than worrying about whether he can stand up against her previous lovers probably needs to remain single. Maybe she should have simply refused to answer questions about what happened before they became "official" but I don't believe she was under any obligation to spill her guts about it. Ain't no way I'd ever debase myself by asking questions about her previous sex life. If fact, I've never worried about it. In my view, her marrying me is just evidence I beat out the competition. That's just me but I know I'm dynamite in the sack. (well maybe not so much these days, but I've still got the typical SS recipient beat.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

The poster's question is the reason I never use the terms affair or cheated when posting to a BS. 

You did not cheat on your husband. You did not commit adultery. 

You did not inform your pseudo boyfriend to step up or get out and cheated on him/boyfriend. Yea it hurts, but it is not adultery. 

So screw him. I bet anything with 10 to 1 odds the man you are marred to you and the marriage you are in has not a single thing in common with the you had an email relationship. What the hell happened to that guy. 

I got a bad feeling about your marriage. I sense isolation from family and past friends that he pushed for. I sense a bully who always has an excuse why you should do something and why he should not do something for you.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

I also suggest reading thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ronic-destructive-behaviors.html#post15599402. Read @EleGirls post carefully, all them not just on this thread. Do you know how to access them?


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## dianaelaine59 (Aug 15, 2016)

OP called her boyfriend her "husband" before they even met or married. I found that strange. 

And I do not think she cheated on him, since he didn't keep to the plans they had to meet, and they had never met in person, and then strung her along until he decided to meet her. 

Just my opinion. 




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## dianaelaine59 (Aug 15, 2016)

And I also think that husband is now being ridiculous. 

What happened, happened after he never showed up AND the way the cousin acted and what she said ... well, I'd be highly suspicious. 


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## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

VladDracul said:


> My belief is her romantic interest was lowered when he kept ****ing around on the planned meetup.


 Visa reason is ****ing around ? That's a legal immigration problem. I live abroad and i've seen how this legal thing can be very difficult for some people. OP herself said it's a complicated visa problem
She did say she had lost trust him anymore, why not take the cousin's advice AND say to him that they both need to back off a little ? In fact after the december plan they had still communicated. It couldn't be that difficult to type a sentence. It's also weird how she trusted the cousin's explanation more than someone she planned to marry and spend the rest of her life with




VladDracul said:


> Somebody else showed interest and she went for it. Her interest was rejuvenated when he got off his azz and quit making excuses. Who can blame her for not standing around while he got off square one. (btw, buying as unseen tangible item is risky enough. Buying an unseen relationship is outrageously careless and potentially dangerous.)


Again, visa is immigration problem not excuse. How is it square one ?
I agree with your words in parentheses, you have to know someone before making commitment. Now will you trust someone who says she loves you and in exclusive relationship while having a fling with her ex ?



VladDracul said:


> Moreover, any guy marrying a girl and than worrying about whether he can stand up against her previous lovers probably needs to remain single. Maybe she should have simply refused to answer questions about what happened before they became "official" but I don't believe she was under any obligation to spill her guts about it.


This is the main discussion, before or while. I believe it's while the were exclusive, if OP told her husband back then that they should have a break or she's considering her option then i'd be on her side.


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## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

double post


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

When I formulated my response, I based it on a cursory read of the OPs post, hence, "_ In mid-December, he said he was definitely not coming because of his work, and I was completely heartbroken. I was pressing for details but he would not say.". _ On closer inspection, I see where the cousin brought up the visa problem. At any rate, its hard to understand why the now husband played the reason for his delay so close to the chest while the cousin provided the details. At best, the now husband was not very forthcoming on the matter. At worse, the cousin concocted a cover story for the OP not showing up as planned and mitigate the damage. 
My take is that the cousin, by stating the op should see other men, may indicate the now husband's true interest, at that time, was less than he was telling the OP and the cousin knew it. Since the OP banged her old boyfriend and the now husband delayed his visit without reasonable explanation, I don't their talks about love and marriage was a serious at that time as they would have the other believe. There are more questions than answers.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

VladDracul said:


> Since the OP banged her old boyfriend and the now husband delayed his visit without reasonable explanation, I don't their talks about love and marriage was a serious at that time as they would have the other believe. There are more questions than answers.


Presuming she "banged her old boyfriend" is a fact not stated. I know we get numb to this stuff here and presume everyone is part of this culture {permiscuous}, and maybe she did, but it's a somewhat offensive presumption if she, in fact, didn't. 

I'm aware chumplady referred to her physical affair as a "fling" when she flew off to London to have sex with her old boyfriend while still married to her first husband, but this situation appears to be a 22 or 23-year-old young girl at the time from a different culture who MAY have just gone out dancing with her old boyfriend who kissed her good night a couple times. Maybe the "fling" in this situation were simply extra-relational emails and text messages with a {local} old boyfriend. 

I agree the problem is really the lie/lying ~~ but, in my opinion, since it's not infidelity, the "coping with infidelity" section of this forum is just way too touchy to adequately assist her with productive advice for this situation. This husband is being incredibly disrespectful to his wife and the mother of his two children and he needs to learn quickly that he will never get respect by being disrespectful.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Quality said:


> Presuming she "banged her old boyfriend" is a fact not stated.


She said, _"Around March of 2004, I had a fling with my ex-boyfriend. I still wrote and talked to my husband, although my faith in him was completely gone but I loved him. I ended the fling and somehow things worked out and when the husband came back, we got married (November 2004) and had two kids. I did not tell him anything about the fling.

He always suspected that something had happened and was always asking me if I had anything to confess to. "_

In the current vernacular, a fling includes sex. For her to say she had and then ended the fling, its not unreasonable to believe sex was part of the fling. If not, its incumbent on her to clarify, but we are likely "assuming" correctly. 
Considering the circumstance, he ask her if she had anything to confess. From my viewpoint, no. Before I met and married my wife, I led a sordid life. She knows better, but if she asked the details, she'd get a well deserved NOYB answer. There is nothing that gives me the liability and responsibility to incriminate myself, depreciate my relationship, risk my happiness, "confessing" things that happened before an agreement of exclusivity between us was reached . 
Due to his actions, she states that her faith in him was completely gone. How can you have a commitment when there is no faith in the authenticity of his contentions. In other words my interpretation is she felt he was just feeding her a line of horse shyt.
At any rate, the balls in his court now that he knows.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

In answer to the original question: 

No you did not technically cheat on him, because the way I look at it, your entire relationship has been an illusion played through the membrane of a computer screen. 

But the two of you have treated each other shabbily. This is a toxic, stupid relationship, and you need to end it and never look back.


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## shakazulu (Jul 13, 2017)

Thanks everyone for responding and providing some encouraging words to move forward. H and I have been talking about this situation for several years (since the 2013 revelation, to be exact, and more so recently because it seemed like he was ready to pull the plug). No IC or MC has been sought.

His feelings have been largely echoed/described by posters here. He said he feels like he’s been living with a stranger for close to 13 years. He is upset about my lying and keeping this secret from him. He has been wondering why I did not disclose this years despite the numerous times he asked, and the selfish part of me thought it would damage our marriage, therefore I kept silent, especially because I haven’t seen my EX since 2004. He laments that if I told him this on email before we met, he would have also dated other people. That stings. He also said he feels like beating the *** out of the Ex BF. I asked him why he wasn’t really honest about the work-visa issues when he didn’t come back to the States in Dec 2003. He said I would never have understood. That’s true - I didn’t really understand the gravity until we got married in 2004 and he detailed it. Apparently, those issues would have taken several months to 2-3 years to resolve, if he wanted to stay in the host country and keep his job & contract. I asked numerous times on email/phone in vain. Was I expected to wait 3 years while he constantly lied that he was coming home in ‘2 months’, or 'his returning date is just around the corner' or ‘he could come anytime he wanted to but was just busy with work at the moment’? Anyhow, I should have been honest when he disappointed me. 

For those who were wondering, this was not any custom, i.e. date online and marry without ever meeting physically or dating physically. We both had very conservative mindsets and are generally risk-takers. I was swept off my feet by the emailing (During that time, there was no Skpe, no Wassupp, no FB, no face-time, international calls were super expensive, etc.), and I am sure he felt the same too. We both fell in love.

He needs constant reassurance that this will not happen again when we go through hard times (we have gone through normal hard times in marriage, but I have never even thought of bailing). He needs to believe that I am still not in love with the Ex-BF who happened to be my first (way before I ever knew my H). He needs reassurance that I will not be unfaithful in the marriage. I have to work on the reassurance and building trust with some strategies I have been learning on this site, I hope this will help. At any rate, I am constantly worried that we will start moving in circles again, He with the badgering/ questioning and blaming when something triggers him – I guess things will never be the same again. Neither one of us wants to D, we have had a great life together, amazing kids, great chemistry and compatibility.


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## Ol'Pal (Aug 24, 2015)

If you have to ask......


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

People on TAM typically advise that a WS to write a complete timeline of their affair. Full and complete disclosure is a must.

I've also read that some BS want to know exactly what sexual acts were performed, how they were performed, exactly how bodily fluids were exchanged, even size and shape of things.

Others want no details.

In almost all cases, the BS is triggered randomly and haunted by mind movies.

For these reasons, consider your situation carefully. If there was no sex, a detailed narrative would be good for you. If you did sexual things with the OM that you've never done with your H that would be terrible. Many other things are in between.

One suggestion I read was to write all the nasty details - completely and fully - and seal them in an envelope. A second version that has the same exact details with regard to acts, times, dates but without your feelings and detailed actions (sorry to be graphic but swallowing, etc).

Have both available but let him know he may want to keep the graphic one sealed. If he must know, tell him he may want a trusted friend to read it first and help him decide if he wants to read it.

The goal is to try to remove the uncertainty that is a barrier to start the process of rebuilding trust. One can only forgive someone when they know what they're forgiving.

Btw your emotional response might also be important but if you include it do not lie or color it. For example don't say it wasn't any good - if that's the case why did you risk your relationship?

If you always found your Ex attractive for some reason then consider admitting that. If you found your ex more sexually appealing than your H - well that's his biggest fear - so just realize what you're up against.

Think about it from your H's perspective - he isn't bugging you - he's suffering and freaking out and panicking - and simply expressing his pain


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What's missing is therapy.


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## shakazulu (Jul 13, 2017)

The main advice I see here is to let H yell at you and be angry at you until the day I die. Ok, but when is enough is enough? Is that spouse going to be yelled at, named called and fight and argue every time the hurt spouse drags it out of the mud when things were going well until death does them part? The hurt spouse bringing it up constantly doesn't help the healing.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Well that really is the big question isn't......do you suck it up because he is the love of your life, and your willing to deal with all the crap for the rest of your lives....do you put it on the table to him that you either want to work on being a better marriage and cut this name calling and yelling or get divorce so both of you can move on...because you need to know....do you offer him a hall pass so it will make the field balanced? I think you have some serious thinking to do now and lay the cards on the table and be willing to walk away from this marriage...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

shakazulu said:


> The main advice I see here is to let H yell at you and be angry at you until the day I die. Ok, but when is enough is enough? Is that spouse going to be yelled at, named called and fight and argue every time the hurt spouse drags it out of the mud when things were going well until death does them part? The hurt spouse bringing it up constantly doesn't help the healing.


He should not abuse you. You have an absolute right to stand up for basic human decency for yourself. But he may never trust you and you will probably have to live with the fact that he doesn't see you with the same reverence that he would have. He probably never will. Unfortunately you really only get one shot at that. This is why lying has been seen as a sin by many religious for time immemorial. The affect of lies never really go away. 

By the way no one says you have to stay, you are saying you want to.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

shakazulu said:


> The main advice I see here is to let H yell at you and be angry at you until the day I die. Ok, but when is enough is enough? Is that spouse going to be yelled at, named called and fight and argue every time the hurt spouse drags it out of the mud when things were going well until death does them part? The hurt spouse bringing it up constantly doesn't help the healing.


That's why you need to be working with a professional therapist to get you both to a place where you CAN deal with it.


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## cynthiaow2 (Jul 18, 2017)

shakazulu said:


> We dated without having met face to face…
> 
> Before we were married, I was introduced to my husband through his cousin in September of 2002. We didn’t meet face to face, the mutual friend gave us each other’s emails and we started corresponding. The emails were more infrequent during the first couple of months. At that time, he was out of the country working, and I was in college in the country. We started slowly, then the emails got more personal, more frequent, and the phone calls started. We both fell in love and started making plans to meet and get married one day. He promised to return in December of 2003, and I was excitedly waiting for him. At this point I was so much in love, I stopped all communication with other men (I had one previous relationship). My husband was in love too, and we were looking forward to getting together. At 22, and he at 25, we were head-over heels into the long distance relationship. At this point, at least to me, the whole point of the relationship was getting together in December 2003, and our conversations were all geared towards that. I was eagerly waiting for him and told my parents and relatives about him and our plans in December.
> 
> ...


I'm not a fun of this 'confession' thing because unlike women, men don't easily forgive and forget! They want to hear it yet when you tell them they can't take it. I would rather not tell unless I'm caught (that doesn't mean I would do it though)

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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

cynthiaow2 said:


> I'm not a fun of this 'confession' thing because unlike women, men don't easily forgive and forget! They want to hear it yet *when you tell them they can't take it.* I would rather not tell unless I'm caught (that doesn't mean I would do it though)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


 @Anon Pink has said something similar, as has my husband. Neither seems to think it is a good idea for a woman to confess an affair, unless she is sure the man is mature enough to be able to hear it.

OP, I agree that you should be willing to walk away from the marriage if your husband cannot come to some kind of peace with this. But that may involve your willingness to walk away from the marriage first. Do you think you could get to that point? How?


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## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

jld said:


> @Anon Pink has said something similar, as has my husband. Neither seems to think it is a good idea for a woman to confess an affair, unless she is sure the man is mature enough to be able to hear it.
> 
> OP, I agree that you should be willing to walk away from the marriage if your husband cannot come to some kind of peace with this. But that may involve your willingness to walk away from the marriage first. Do you think you could get to that point? How?


Does that stand go the other way too ? Is there any point for a man ton confess an affair unless the woman is mature enough to hear it ?

And what does this maturity entail of ?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

karr99 said:


> Does that stand go the other way too ? Is there any point for a man ton confess an affair unless the woman is mature enough to hear it ?
> 
> And what does this maturity entail of ?


Start a thread on it (we don't want to t/j this one). Could be an interesting discussion.


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## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

jld said:


> Start a thread on it (we don't want to t/j this one). Could be an interesting discussion.


Just 1 reply, as a woman who's craptastically has been on 3 sides (BW, WW, and unknowing OW) i'm really interested to hear your opinion


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

cynthiaow2 said:


> I'm not a fun of this 'confession' thing because unlike women, men don't easily forgive and forget! They want to hear it yet when you tell them they can't take it. I would rather not tell unless I'm caught (that doesn't mean I would do it though)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk




EXACTLY! keep it a secret so when it DOES eventually come out, you reveal your truly selfish nature and destroy your marriage and your whole history together feels like a complete lie. Haven't you been on TAM long? Look at the thread where a guy found out his w cheated 18 years ago and now it's all in the **** can


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## cynthiaow2 (Jul 18, 2017)

TheTruthHurts said:


> EXACTLY! keep it a secret so when it DOES eventually come out, you reveal your truly selfish nature and destroy your marriage and your whole history together feels like a complete lie. Haven't you been on TAM long? Look at the thread where a guy found out his w cheated 18 years ago and now it's all in the **** can
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


One approach doesn't fit all, confession wouldn't work for everyone and I won't try it. A partner who wouldn't forgive you when you're caught will equally not forgive when you confess. It all depends on how far your partner is willing to let go. If your partner cheated on you about 18 years ago and you're still handling it as a breaking news then I don't know what to say to you, it's very disrespectful and a betrayal of trust to cheat on your partner but then since we're human we're bound to make mistakes. Let's not forget. Marriage is for two people who are willing to forgive each other. 

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## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

TheTruthHurts said:


> EXACTLY! keep it a secret so when it DOES eventually come out, you reveal your truly selfish nature and destroy your marriage and your whole history together feels like a complete lie. Haven't you been on TAM long? Look at the thread where a guy found out his w cheated 18 years ago and now it's all in the **** can
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's astounding that many thinks cheaters are entitled forgiveness. The point of confessing is to rebuild a marriage and give the betrayed a chance to decide in a ****uation that they're unknowingly in but off course, what's the profit in that for the cheater ? None, they think only about themselves that's why many won't confess or after gotten caught, trickle truth (read: lies by omission)
It's as if, if Divorce happens after an affair then it's the BSs fault because, my God they just can't forgive. Cheating is not a mistake, it's a series of calculated decisions. I mean, how many cheaters realize that their cheating is a mistake if they never got caught ? Probably none. It's the consequences that they hate, not the affair or the illicit taboo sex. It's only a mistake for them after the consequences


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

If there was a rule about being exclusive, you cheated by definition. Some treat cheating as the end of the relationship/marriage. Others treat it as a sickness that needs professional help to fix. Then there are those like me and my wife who looked at reality. We saw the 50% divorce rate. We knew that genetically we would be attracted to other people and not be in control of our actions depending on circumstances. So we had a monogamish marriage. That meant we would strive for monogamy but an occasional fling was not a deal breaker as long as it was an exception and not the rule. 45 years of a great marriage has shown us that our marriage rules where the correct ones for us. Neither of us had to destroy the life we built for each other, hate each other, sell the house we made a home or go broke paying for the divorce and alimony, simply because we had sex one or two times with someone we found attractive. Sex can be just sex and only we can elect to make it mean more. You cheated in the context of your relationship. BTW, confessing is not recommended. All it does is alleviate your guilt by destroy your partners world and maybe the relationship. Anyone who things that the impact of cheating will be lessened by confessing to it, is in for a shock. If you are truly sorry, suck it up and never do it again. That is a much, much better option.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

You didn't cheat. You hadn't even met face to face yet for god sakes! Talk is cheap, his actions at the time said "maybe but probably not."

You didn't cheat.




shakazulu said:


> The main advice I see here is to let H yell at you and be angry at you until the day I die. Ok, but when is enough is enough? Is that spouse going to be yelled at, named called and fight and argue every time the hurt spouse drags it out of the mud when things were going well until death does them part? The hurt spouse bringing it up constantly doesn't help the healing.


That's because you're getting advice from people who have been betrayed and so they see betrayal everywhere.

I suggest you tell your husband it's time for him to make a decision, and the decision is his to make. He decides to move past this issue or he tells you that he cannot move past it. It is his decision to move past it or not. If he cannot, there is no reason why you should be his punching bag any longer.




jld said:


> @Anon Pink has said something similar, as has my husband. Neither seems to think it is a good idea for a woman to confess an affair, unless she is sure the man is mature enough to be able to hear it.
> 
> OP, I agree that you should be willing to walk away from the marriage if your husband cannot come to some kind of peace with this. But that may involve your willingness to walk away from the marriage first. Do you think you could get to that point? How?



True, I don't think either spouse should confess if there is no reason to confess. You're only putting your guilt onto someone else's plate to carry around. I understand most people here do not agree with this, and that's okay.

OP, you didn't cheat.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

karr99 said:


> Does that stand go the other way too ? Is there any point for a man ton confess an affair unless the woman is mature enough to hear it ?
> 
> And what does this maturity entail of ?



Yes.

There is only one motivating factor to confess and that is to receive forgiveness. But to receive forgiveness, you have to place all the hurt on them. You have to rip away their idealized vision and replace it with betrayal. You've already done a very bad thing but now you're even too weak to carry that burden?

No. I think I strong response to a one off type thing is to keep silent and become the best spouse you can possibly be.

Of course, this does not apply to those who indulge in the one off every month or so....


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The problem with this is the fact that it's NEVER an accident. It's ALWAYS a case of choosing to disrespect your spouse and act selfishly.

I guess if anyone is selfish enough to betray the one person who is willing to forsake all others for them, then adding to the betrayal by hiding it probably is a calculated cynical next step.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> [MENTION=51996]mature enough to be able to hear it.


What you mean is will the confessor get away with it. This kind of stuff is why there is a Red Pill.

jld you are nothing if not consistent. dug too.

By the way jld does that include any potential affair dug may have? You will only find out if you mature enough to handle it? This kind of thinking doesn't concern you?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> The problem with this is the fact that it's NEVER an accident. It's ALWAYS a case of choosing to disrespect your spouse and act selfishly.
> 
> I guess if anyone is selfish enough to betray the one person who is willing to forsake all others for them, then adding to the betrayal by hiding it probably is a calculated cynical next step.
> 
> ...


This is kind of a t/j but it's relevant.

What you say is true. I never suggested a one off might be a case of falling on top of someone's penis and whoopsie daisy...

It is calculated to not confess. Why burden your wife? Ignorance can be bliss. Why do you suppose so many people live in denial?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

karr99 said:


> Does that stand go the other way too ? Is there any point for a man ton confess an affair unless the woman is mature enough to hear it ?
> 
> And what does this maturity entail of ?


All this is is jld's typical misandry.


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## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> Yes.
> 
> There is only one motivating factor to confess and that is to receive forgiveness. But to receive forgiveness, you have to place all the hurt on them. You have to rip away their idealized vision and replace it with betrayal. You've already done a very bad thing but now you're even too weak to carry that burden?
> 
> ...


Honest relationship should be the main motivation. No one is entitled to forgiveness after comitting betrayal Anon Pink, some people confess because they can't lie anymore and want to let the loyal spouse to make their decision because they think their spouse is equal enough to make decision in their relationship. The concept of honor and non-altruistic sense is rather uncommon nowadays but there are some who still do that. If someone confess because their only motivation is forgiveness for them, well, it's still say one thing about them, selfish. 

Keeping a lie as big as affair is not strong, that's just a self-preservation thing. The cheater stole the BSs chance to make the decision after a big stab delivered to their relationship. BSs could've been out there, perhaps finding other person or just contend with being on their own. 
No confession=No consequences


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

karr99 said:


> It's astounding that many thinks cheaters are entitled forgiveness.


They're cheaters. The fact that they feel entitled is why they do it in the first place. Why would you expect anything else then they also feel entitled for forgiveness as well. It's actually good that you see it, as it just illuminates once again as if we need another example why they are not worth the effort. Reading on here and other places has really made this point abundantly clear. 

I mean I think the point is --

"You shouldn't tell because the BS may be mad and hurt, they may note even get over it. I mean why isn't a BS mature enough to let me cheat and lie for years. How dare they." As if maturity somehow equates to staying with a cheater. 

I mean come on is there anything so laughable than that?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

karr99 said:


> Honest relationship should be the main motivation. No one is entitled to forgiveness after comitting betrayal Anon Pink, some people confess because they can't lie anymore and want to let the loyal spouse to make their decision because they think heir spouse is equal enough to make decision in their relationship. The concept of honor and non-altruistic sense is rather uncommon nowadays but there are some who still do that. If someone confess because their only motivation is forgiveness for them, well, it's still say one thing about them, selfish.
> 
> Keeping a lie as big as affair is not strong, that's just a self-preservation thing. The cheater stole the BSs chance to make the decision after a big stab delivered to their relationship. BSs could've been out there, perhaps finding other person or just contend with being on their own.
> No confession=No consequences


Not to mention people act like if you hide it this still doesn't have an impact on the marriage. If one partner is being inauthentic from the point of the affair forward how can they really be a good spouse. How can they be a healthy person. God spare us these noble liars. Oppressed with the burden of their overactive genitals, and the disability of lack of character.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Not to mention people act like if you hide it this still doesn't have an impact on the marriage. If one partner is being inauthentic from the point of the affair forward how can they really be a good spouse. How can they be a healthy person. God spare us these noble liars. Oppressed with the burden of their overactive genitals, and the disability of lack of character.


Noble liars...good term because that's exactly what it is. Lying for a noble reason. Carrying the burden of a deed so hurtful the cheater can hardly stand it.

We lie to our children all the time. We tell them things to ease their fear, and sometimes ours. We fail to tell them things to stave off fear, both theirs and ours. We are a nation and culture of selective truth telling. When adults select when to tell the truth based on easing the suffering of someone we care about, solely for the reason of easing THEIR burden, that is a noble reason.

"No, your ass looks fine in those jeans."
"I think your hair cut look great!"
"I'll take care of this."


This OP is being told she cheated when she didn't, being told she needs to calmly lay herself on the alter of her husband's insecurity and accept his hurt and anger that she watched his actions, which told her he was all talk and no action so she should not believe he ever intended to actually meet her, and dated another man. They hadn't even met face to face yet! 

TAM is not the final arbiter on infidelity.


When You Should Tell Your Partner You Cheated | Men's Health


> Confessing is crucial if you’re invested in someone other than your partner, she adds.
> 
> That’s because your affair could be a sign that some elements—say, sexual intimacy or other kinds of closeness—are missing from your current relationship, and you’ll need to address them if you want your union to survive.




https://www.truthaboutdeception.com/lying-and-deception/should-i-confess/feeling-guilty.html


> Sometimes confessing leads to more problems than it solves (see Kelly & McKillop). When you admit to doing something wrong, often it changes the way that a spouse or partner sees you. It can create suspicion, hostility, and resentment.
> 
> And when partners become suspicious, it is hard for relationships to get back on track.
> 
> So if a partner is not going to find out what happened, and if the problem is not going to reoccur, it may be best to keep things quiet and learn to deal with your feelings of guilt in a different manner. Causing long term problems in a relationship in order to relieve your guilt may not be the wisest thing to do.



In the interest of honest discussion on this topic of confession I found this article to be a good one that advocates confessing for a reason that seems relevant, to me at least.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...1207/should-i-tell-my-partner-about-my-affair


Essentially, you (the betrayer) wish to stay married, desire a good solid marriage on a foundation of emotional connection, trust and honesty. How can you seek this while keeping your betrayal a secret? 

My thought is to gain honest insight into why you cheated. What was missing and was/is that missing piece something within you that needs fixing? Is there something missing within the relationship?

I think most people who cheat are missing something within themselves. I think those people need to work on themselves to build a better marriage and I don't think burdening your spouse with your lack of emotional health is the way to heal yourself.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

karr99 said:


> Honest relationship should be the main motivation. No one is entitled to forgiveness after comitting betrayal Anon Pink, some people confess because they can't lie anymore and want to let the loyal spouse to make their decision because they think their spouse is equal enough to make decision in their relationship. The concept of honor and non-altruistic sense is rather uncommon nowadays but there are some who still do that. If someone confess because their only motivation is forgiveness for them, well, it's still say one thing about them, selfish.
> 
> Keeping a lie as big as affair is not strong, that's just a self-preservation thing. The cheater stole the BSs chance to make the decision after a big stab delivered to their relationship. BSs could've been out there, perhaps finding other person or just contend with being on their own.
> No confession=No consequences


No true. Just because you didn't deliver the consequences doesn't mean they don't exist.

I never suggested anyone is entitled to forgiveness after betrayal. No one is entitled to forgiveness for anything. We aren't entitled to gifts. It's not a gift if it is offered through coercive expectation.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Moderator Warning

Please do not hurl insults or declare posts to be "dumb" because you don't like them.

It's not respectful or productive; imagine if all of us just labeled something stupid when we disagreed. What kind of atmosphere would we have here?

Disagree with anything you want, just leave the insults out of it.


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## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> No true. Just because you didn't deliver the consequences doesn't mean they don't exist.
> 
> I never suggested anyone is entitled to forgiveness after betrayal. No one is entitled to forgiveness for anything. We aren't entitled to gifts. It's not a gift if it is offered through coercive expectation.


And what are the consequences for cheater who doesn't confess ? Life goes by as usual for them. Try think about it from the perspective of the BSs too. From that point there are no equal and honest relationship anymore. The cheater hold the upperhand because he/she steal a chance from a person they claim to "love" or "respect" because they believe that they themselves, a cheater, can be the best spouse for the loyal one. 

That sounds like a word salad, you did say that forgiveness is the only motivation a cheater should confess otherwise live in blissful ignorance and denial.

The last article you linked in here also clearly stated that cheater should tell, good article


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> Noble liars...good term because that's exactly what it is. Lying for a noble reason. Carrying the burden of a deed so hurtful the cheater can hardly stand it.
> 
> We lie to our children all the time. We tell them things to ease their fear, and sometimes ours. We fail to tell them things to stave off fear, both theirs and ours. We are a nation and culture of selective truth telling. When adults select when to tell the truth based on easing the suffering of someone we care about, solely for the reason of easing THEIR burden, that is a noble reason.
> 
> ...



Regardless of OP, Here in lies the difference. You spouse is not your child. You never made a commitment with your child, and you are lying to your child for a very different reason then you are lying to your spouse. The fact that you equate a child relationship to that of husband and wife just shows it doesn't hold up. 

The premise seems to be the cheater is protecting the spouse so ultimately they can have a good life. I don't agree, spending your life with someone who cheats on you is a waste, basically a nightmare whether you know it or not, there is always better out there then that. When it comes to a committed relationship a cheating spouse (especially one who doesn't ask for forgiveness) is worthless. Frankly worse then worthless because all they are just a time sink. Most people when given the choice would not want to be married to a cheater. I know I wouldn't. If you don't give me a choice you are still taking away my power and agency and abusing me. Frankly it always comes down to protecting yourself from consequences, not the spouse you cheated on. (I am sure I could find just as many references from Psychologists to say you should tell them by the way) 

The one caveat is when your spouse specifically says they wouldn't want to know. I still don't give those marriages much of a shot though in the long run. 

What if the spouse point blank asks you. What if they tell you they would not want to be marred to you if they found out. How do you justify that, surely you are not saying you have the right to override that request by not providing the information to make that decision. 

Nah it's just plain and ordinary immoral selfishness. I really don't care what any Psychologist says about it. 

As far as OP is concerned lets just go with your premise that she didn't cheat. I don't agree but I do agree it's not the same as adultery because they hadn't even met in person. So lets say we accept your premise though, she didn't cheat.

She still lied to him for 10 years. 10 years of lying is a hell of a thing to get over and doesn't make for a good marriage. The damage is still severe. Now if you are saying she should have lied forever because it wasn't his business then I guess you ARE advocating for taking away the ability to make an informed decision. Don't know how anyone can morally do that. Remember he asked her repeatedly according to her, and she lied every time, until she didn't. You seem to be saying the lying was a good thing. 

I think you are wrong and I believe this result just proves my point. Had she told him the truth from the beginning he could have decided to take her as she was or they would not have gotten married. If he had to decided to stay presumably it would be with some resolve to get over it. The point is he would have made an informed choice and had agency in probably the most important relationship and choice he made in his life. That is a very big part of betray that is often overlooked. There is a theft of agency. It's part of what the BS has to try to recover, which is only made worse when you stay with the person who did it. The easiest way to do it is to move on. This is also to my mind, why so many do walk away even years later. 

So if she had just told him either they wouldn't be in the mess they are, or they would have both moved on. As it stands they still may not survive and if that is the case they wasted years, and even if they do the damage is likely done now so they don't have the marriage they could have. Telling the truth at the start was always the best choice. Better to take your medicine.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

karr99 said:


> And what are the consequences for cheater who doesn't confess ? Life goes by as usual for them. Try think about it from the perspective of the BSs too. From that point there are no equal and honest relationship anymore. The cheater hold the upperhand because he/she steal a chance from a person they claim to "love" or "respect" because they believe that they themselves, a cheater, can be the best spouse for the loyal one.
> 
> That sounds like a word salad, you did say that forgiveness is the only motivation a cheater should confess otherwise live in blissful ignorance and denial.


As I said, just because you didn't deliver the consequences doesn't mean they don't exist.

I have thought about this from the betrayed's perspective. MANY times! I believe my husband had sex with another woman shortly before we married. For several reasons I firmly believe this although I've never confronted him. I didn't see the point back then and I still don't see the point in having a confession.

Secondarily, growing up it occurred to me that men cheat all the time. And just as often their wives looked the other way. At first this angered me because of the double standard that women so easily submit to. But upon marriage I decided what was most important was that the marriage and the family be given first, best and all that they needed. After that, it doesn't matter. I remember telling a man, shortly after I got married, who I suspected was A) trying to get in my pants and B) had first hand knowledge of my husband's cheating episode prior to our marriage and was feeling me out for how much I knew or suspected. I shut him down by saying I knew what his capabilities were and one thing I knew he was incapable of was emotional duality. I knew he couldn't hold someone else in esteem while holding me there. But like all men, he was perfectly capable of following his physical instincts. See how we danced around the subject? He was a clever player.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I will come back to this later. I think this is a good discussion.




sokillme said:


> Regardless of OP, Here in lies the difference. You spouse is not your child. You never made a commitment with your child, and you are lying to your child for a very different reason then you are lying to your spouse. The fact that you equate a child relationship to that of husband and wife just shows it doesn't hold up.
> 
> The premise seems to be the cheater is protecting the spouse so ultimately they can have a good life. I don't agree, spending your life with someone who cheats on you is a waste, basically a nightmare whether you know it or not, there is always better out there then that. When it comes to a committed relationship a cheating spouse (especially one who doesn't ask for forgiveness) is worthless. Frankly worse then worthless because all they are just a time sink. Most people when given the choice would not want to be married to a cheater. I know I wouldn't. If you don't give me a choice you are still taking away my power and agency and abusing me. Frankly it always comes down to protecting yourself from consequences, not the spouse you cheated on. (I am sure I could find just as many references from Psychologists to say you should tell them by the way)
> 
> ...


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## Tigger (Dec 5, 2007)

At first I thought maybe it was cheating but now I don't think it was. You were basically pen pals. You had never met. He lied to you about coming to meet you which it was nearly a year later when he did and he just expected you to wait on the word of a stranger. 

Getting married a month after you actually met means you pretty much married a stranger. I suppose you had to get married so he could stay in the USA. 

You say you told him about this 4 years ago and he is still on it. I mean he needs to build a bridge and get over it at this point.

I question your motives to tell him about it after 10 years.

Is it possible either one of you just want out of the marriage?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

This discussion largely surrounds a simple question...which applies to the OP as well.

Are you principled or pragmatic?

For the pragmatic folks, I really have difficulty accepting that they would agree with concealment if they were the ones potentially betrayed.

Doesn't that really say it all?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> I will come back to this later. I think this is a good discussion.


I will post this on the other thread as to not continue the thread jack.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> As I said, just because you didn't deliver the consequences doesn't mean they don't exist.
> 
> I have thought about this from the betrayed's perspective. MANY times! I believe my husband had sex with another woman shortly before we married. For several reasons I firmly believe this although I've never confronted him. I didn't see the point back then and I still don't see the point in having a confession.
> 
> Secondarily, growing up it occurred to me that men cheat all the time. And just as often their wives looked the other way. At first this angered me because of the double standard that women so easily submit to. But upon marriage I decided what was most important was that the marriage and the family be given first, best and all that they needed. After that, it doesn't matter. I remember telling a man, shortly after I got married, who I suspected was A) trying to get in my pants and B) had first hand knowledge of my husband's cheating episode prior to our marriage and was feeling me out for how much I knew or suspected. I shut him down by saying I knew what his capabilities were and one thing I knew he was incapable of was emotional duality. I knew he couldn't hold someone else in esteem while holding me there. But like all men, he was perfectly capable of following his physical instincts. See how we danced around the subject? He was a clever player.


The thing is it's really not fair of you to make the decision not to tell because of how YOU would feel about it. What matters is how your spouse would feel and would they wan to know. By the way men who cheat are *******s.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Is there another thread? If so post a link please. This is borderline T/J but possibly also helpful to OP to see all perspectives on this issue.
@Anon Pink - your assumption that all men cheat explains your reaction to non-disclosure. My experience and belief is that most men don't cheat and the marriage / divorce statistics are skewed toward philanderers who have multiple dishonest marriages. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Is there another thread? If so post a link please. This is borderline T/J but possibly also helpful to OP to see all perspectives on this issue.
> @Anon Pink - your assumption that all men cheat explains your reaction to non-disclosure. My experience and belief is that most men don't cheat and the marriage / divorce statistics are skewed toward philanderers who have multiple dishonest marriages.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I suppose I can see how what I actually said might be misunderstood and mischaracterized.



Anon Pink said:


> ...growing up it occurred to me that men cheat all the time. And just as often their wives looked the other way.


"Men cheat all the time" isn't the same, though close I grant, as "all men cheat." But the subtle difference in meaning is important. Men who cheat do so all the time, with impunity.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> I suppose I can see how what I actually said might be misunderstood and mischaracterized.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So men and women who cheat do so all the time, with impunity? Ok I suppose it's probably true but I try to steer clear of those people


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## shakazulu (Jul 13, 2017)

Hi everyone - I am still doing everything I can to help my husband heal and put everything back on track. It is a painful process for him - especially the deceit/ lies. I strive to be a better person now. Some posters were asking what I am doing to heal the husband. We are not going the MC/IC route - he doesn't believe in that. I am basically fixing this by myself. Here is my list - can someone tell me what else is missing? 

1. He has access to all my phone passwords, emails, etc. for home/work. He has always had them, so this is not new. 

2. Answering detailed questions/talking - this has been going on for several hours every day, every evening until the wee hours of the morning when we have to catch a little sleep and get ready for work. I try to be honest - sometimes it's hard to recall exact details like time/day/month because it has been 13 years. This is tricky because it makes everything I say look like a lie. 

3. Cut contact with an old friend who knew of the affair - I did this recently - a friend from college who was a friend to the OM. My brother apparently has business dealings with the OM - I am also not speaking with my brother at the moment (I will not speak with my brother until my husband can trust me again)

4. Acknowledging their hurt/ your betrayal - I put myself in his shoes and listen when he expresses his feelings. It gets nasty, with bitter name-calling and false accusations, but I don't expect a walk in the park until he can trust me again.

5. Write timeline of affair- I did this, approximating months/days that I was seeing OM. His D-Day was in fall 2013 - I messed up by trickle-truths and lies at that time. Again, it has been so long since the affair happened in 2004, I am trying to be consistent, but sometimes when I can't recall exact details/ or their are minor inconsistencies, he gets quite upset. I understand that the trust will take forever to rebuild. 


There are other items like cutting links with OM, STD checks, DNA for kids, broadcast the affair to family, writing No Contact letter, etc.. that would not apply in our situation given that I haven't seen OM in over 13 years. My husband knows that I have been a faithful wife, have never even looked at another man, so perhaps we can heal. I hope we can heal. 

Any more suggestions?


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

shakazulu said:


> Hi everyone - I am still doing everything I can to help my husband heal and put everything back on track. It is a painful process for him - especially the deceit/ lies. I strive to be a better person now. Some posters were asking what I am doing to heal the husband. We are not going the MC/IC route - he doesn't believe in that. I am basically fixing this by myself. Here is my list - can someone tell me what else is missing?
> 
> 1. He has access to all my phone passwords, emails, etc. for home/work. He has always had them, so this is not new
> 
> ...


In my opinion, the biggest mistake you made was deciding to be exclusive before you had even met him in person. You never cheated on him after you met in person. If I were your husband, I would understand why you had a fling with another man (again before you even knew that you ever actually going to meet your now husband in person). Also, in my opinion, asking for a timeline of your "affair" is just petty and silly. Your husband is way over reacting in my opinion.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So, you have been having hours-long talks EVERY NIGHT into the wee hours? Every night?


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## shakazulu (Jul 13, 2017)

turnera said:


> So, you have been having hours-long talks EVERY NIGHT into the wee hours? Every night?



Yes. Every night until early morning hours. He has numerous detailed questions and it's been taking us long to go through each item. Obviously it gets nasty sometimes and I shut down, break down or just refuse to answer any more questions.
We talk about OM and my deceit day and night. We talk on the phone during the working day as well.
We have always had an active sexual life, that aspect hasn't changed.
He says he needs to keep talking about this in order to heal. I have to support him until he heals.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you're not getting sufficient sleep, you need to set a boundary. "Honey, I want to help you in every way I can. But we both need to be getting a decent amount of sleep. Since I have to leave for work at 7am, I'd like to request that we end our talks at midnight. I'm happy to keep talking to you, but I really do need to sleep so I don't get fired. That ok with you?"


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## shakazulu (Jul 13, 2017)

I get what you and other posters are trying to say, but the truth is, we are in this situation today because I am the one that messed up. I am the one that has stolen years of his life by marrying him under false pretenses and not disclosing this information before we got married. 

I am the one that lied and cheated and hurt my husband's feelings. I am the one that needs to do what it takes to rebuild the broken trust. And it is broken so badly, he is now starting to accuse me of 'looking at other men' in stores, restaurants, train, etc. 

I know he wouldn't have married me if he knew. He has said so repeatedly when angry, although when he calms down, he says it would not have made a difference. I need to fix this, it's ruining us.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Steve1000 said:


> In my opinion, the biggest mistake you made was deciding to be exclusive before you had even met him in person. You never cheated on him after you met in person. If I were your husband, I would understand why you had a fling with another man (again before you even knew that you ever actually going to meet your now husband in person). Also, in my opinion, asking for a timeline of your "affair" is just petty and silly. Your husband is way over reacting in my opinion.


I think your husband is milking this for all its worth. I am just wondering was he himself pure before you two actually met. I bet he wasn't, I would ask him. There has to come a time when he lets this go, and stop acting like a big baby, it's not like you were actually together when this happened.


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## JustTheFacts (Jun 27, 2017)

I'm sorry to tell you this but I don't think that your husband is ever going to let this go. How long are you willing to go through this? What if it's 10 or 20 years at this intensity? Very likely that it will be. Healing is one thing but lording it over you is a dead end. All of you will suffer. Tough spot to be in. I wish you and your family the best.


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## shakazulu (Jul 13, 2017)

Excuse me for the rant but I?m going through a rollercoaster of emotions. I?ve been working through these issues with H, trying to prove myself, enduring long Q/A sessions that last through the night and even eat into my work during the day. I get it... I stole many years from his life by not being open. He deserved to be with somebody who loves him unconditionally through thick or thin. H confessed in a fit of rage that he slept with another woman ( for one night, or maybe more, I am not sure) during our online dating relationship many years ago. My first thought was ?you hypocrite!? But I didn?t go there. Initially I thought he was joking, but then he swore on our kids? lives that he wasn?t. He then finished the discussion by lamenting that now I know what he feels like, and that he wasn?t and isn?t desperate. 

I am not allowed to ask any follow up questions. I have been raked through the coals, and he continues to do that, but he will not discuss his indiscretion at all. He says he did it because I was up to no good. 

OK, it hurts very much thinking about it. I just can?t help feeling that he?s so hypocritical. I?m also wondering why raise it now? Jeez!! I?m so confused. He won?t discuss his at all, but we are still going on and on about mine.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

shakazulu said:


> Excuse me for the rant but I?m going through a rollercoaster of emotions. I?ve been working through these issues with H, trying to prove myself, enduring long Q/A sessions that last through the night and even eat into my work during the day. I get it... I stole many years from his life by not being open. He deserved to be with somebody who loves him unconditionally through thick or thin. H confessed in a fit of rage that he slept with another woman ( for one night, or maybe more, I am not sure) during our online dating relationship many years ago. My first thought was ?you hypocrite!? But I didn?t go there. Initially I thought he was joking, but then he swore on our kids? lives that he wasn?t. He then finished the discussion by lamenting that now I know what he feels like, and that he wasn?t and isn?t desperate.
> 
> I am not allowed to ask any follow up questions. I have been raked through the coals, and he continues to do that, but he will not discuss his indiscretion at all. He says he did it because I was up to no good.
> 
> OK, it hurts very much thinking about it. I just can?t help feeling that he?s so hypocritical. I?m also wondering why raise it now? Jeez!! I?m so confused. He won?t discuss his at all, but we are still going on and on about mine.


Oh Jesus, 

sigh.. 

Seems like you guys pretty much settled to your own level. Yes your husband is a giant hypocrite, and yes now you know what it feels like. How much better off would you both had been if he had just told you when he found out about you. How much better off if you could have both kept your pants on. If your marriage is going to survive you both better get all of those skeletons out of the closet. Marriage Counseling would benefit both of you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

shakazulu said:


> I am not allowed to ask any follow up questions. I have been raked through the coals, and he continues to do that, but he will not discuss his indiscretion at all. He says he did it because I was up to no good.


One, whose fault is that, that you are not 'allowed' to discuss what he did? Answer: YOURS for allowing it to stay there.

Two, look up the term gaslighting. That is what you are experiencing. The jerk tells the betrayed spouse that it's THEIR fault, or that they are NOT understanding what really happened, or so on.

You need to learn to discern fact from fiction.


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## Trep (Nov 4, 2017)

Yea, your husband is being a massive hypocrite, and manipulative as all hell. He doesn't get to rug sweep his own cheating while trying to make you feel guilty over yours. Marriages are a partnership, he's trying to run a dictatorship.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

shakazulu said:


> Yes. Every night until early morning hours. He has numerous detailed questions and it's been taking us long to go through each item. Obviously it gets nasty sometimes and I shut down, break down or just refuse to answer any more questions.
> We talk about OM and my deceit day and night. We talk on the phone during the working day as well.
> We have always had an active sexual life, that aspect hasn't changed.
> He says he needs to keep talking about this in order to heal. I have to support him until he heals.


this happened in 2004, when did he find out. The betrayed spouse will often want to go over the A but this is bordering on being obsessive and almost abusive?

He also cheated so his A should also be open to the same level of discussion and scrutiny, otherwise he is nothing but a hypocrite and should be called out on it. He sounds vengeful and immature.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You won't be able to get him to change. So your only hope is to change what YOU are doing. And you may have to consider leaving him.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

shakazulu said:


> Hi everyone - I am still doing everything I can to help my husband heal and put everything back on track. It is a painful process for him - especially the deceit/ lies. I strive to be a better person now. Some posters were asking what I am doing to heal the husband. We are not going the MC/IC route - he doesn't believe in that. I am basically fixing this by myself. Here is my list - can someone tell me what else is missing?
> 
> 1. He has access to all my phone passwords, emails, etc. for home/work. He has always had them, so this is not new.
> 
> ...


No, you are doing fine. 

If, you were not officially engaged at the time, then it was not cheating. You were lonely and went back to an older boyfriend. Not a strange and new man. 
I certainly would not be happy with what you did, but I might overlook it in this case.

Hell, you married the guy. He got the prize. 
The boyfriend? He got a 'refresher' course. And an ad-hoc final exam...which he failed. He did not matriculate to a marriage with you.

Good luck!

SCM


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## jinkazama (Nov 5, 2017)

You both are wrong.

And yes he is a hypocrite

To be honest i think you shouldn't have confessed it after many years.
Confession only brought drama in your life


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