# Well, ain't that a kick in the head?



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Don't know why, but that song phrase has been ringing in my head all night like the most obnoxious earworm ever. It's even more annoying than that time I had She Blinded Me with Science in my head for three solid days during finals (science major, here). It's probably so bad this time because I actually do feel like I've been kicked in the head.

After a rocky 2 years of working at R, my husband finally admitted last night that he had not only been in love with the OW he had the 3 year EA with, but he had *also* - concurrently - been sexting with a woman at work *and *had a "one night stand" (that he kept in touch with for several months afterward) with a woman he picked up in a bar while he was on an out of town trip related to his main hobby. He'd also "flirted a little bit" with two other women. Several of his friends have known all the details this whole time. 

He told me - when I came back after vomitting - that he actually felt like a weight had been lifted off of his chest now that he'd been honest. 

But me? I've been kicked in the head. 

I've been dragging this man uphill toward R for TWO FREAKIN' YEARS trying to salvage our marriage after what I thought was one EA, and now I find out that it was all a great big lie. He can't understand why I think the news that there were actually 3 OW - that he's confessed to - has set us back to day one on R. There was even some minor harping about how we weren't communicating at the time, he felt I didn't care about him or our marriage, and that he's changed so much since then. He had the nerve to say "this is why I don't tell you things, you don't handle the truth well." How well did he expect me to take it? Seriously? He's looked me in the eyes every single day for over two years, not to mention all the time while the EA was ongoing, and lied to me without flinching. Every. Single. Day. And I'm the one causing problems because I'm not handling it like he thinks I ought to?

wtf?

So, here I sit at work, going about my day, after having D-Day 3 last night. I'm just sort of numb. Last night I was sick, upset, gravely hurt. I even told him that I really just hated him right then. But today I'm just numb. Oh, and _bitter_. 

I knew he was clueless. I knew he was foggy for a really long time. I knew he was self-centered. But 2 more OW with additional flirtations? And he could finally tell me because of "how far we've come in improving our marriage" and I "shouldn't let this mess up all the progress we've made." 

W.T.F?!?!


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I hate to tell you this, but there's probably even more 

I am so sorry you are going though this. No one should have to. It sucks a lot. A LOT. 

Are you in IC or MC? Are there books you've been reading at all? Are you eating and taking care of yourself?

After my second D day I spent three days crying and completely numb. I was driving to work one morning and realized I had no recollection of the actual drive or how I got to where I was. Scary.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

Working on R for two years? Wow


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Hope, we did a solid 8 months of MC together between D-Day 1 and D-Day 2. I did IC with our MC for another 6 months after that. 

I've read pretty much every reputable book on infidelity, relationships and marriage. I've worked on myself a lot. I changed the things I needed to about myself in order to find emotional health and get my self esteem back. I stopped being a doormat and began insisting that he actually participate in married and family life. We began having date nights again routinely.

Two months ago I finally convinced H to work through the Marriage Builder program. We started reading Love Busters at night and talking about the book in relation to our marriage. It was actually helping and things were noticeably better. The change was apparent even in his communications with others that he didn't know I was monitoring. We got to the chapter about healing after infidelity last night, and he decided that in the spirit of radical honesty, it was time to come clean. 

I did want him to be honest. I did need to know everything. But I needed that 2 years ago. It's so much worse to know he kept lying for all this time. It just makes every inch we've gained toward R into a farce.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Holy Moly! They just dont get it do they? He is a serial cheater. Youre not handling it well????? Well the good news is HE feels better.....uuggghhhh. Im so sorry.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

He blamed the fact that he was a coward for two years on you? I'm so sorry.

He probably waited until the M was in better shape because he knew it would be harder for you to leave. BUT he forgot to consider how damaging it would be once you did find out and how it would affect the level of trust again. So sad.

He may have stopped cheating but he's still selfish and he's still a blameshifter. I wouldn't know what to do with that either.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Rowan said:


> And he could finally tell me because of "how far we've come in improving our marriage" and I "shouldn't let this mess up all the progress we've made."
> 
> W.T.F?!?!


Uh...WHAT progress of WHAT marriage?

You have a sham of a marriage that is a CONVENIENCE for your husband.

You deserve better.

Help him pack.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Rowan said:


> Two months ago I finally convinced H to work through the Marriage Builder program.


That right there is your problem, IMO. 

You had to CONVINCE the CHEATER to work on the marriage. 

Yet here you were, still WITH him, when he obviously had no care for improving the marriage.

Why should he?

You're still there.

He finally felt 'safe' enough to tell you because, by now, you've proven to him that you'll never leave him, no matter what he does. If you do nothing, his next step will be to tell you that he really really wants to try out a threesome, since you're so 'understanding' of him.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Rowan said:


> It's so much worse to know he kept CHEATING for all this time. It just makes every inch we've gained toward R into a farce.


Lying is an omission. Cheating is a CHOICE. And don't kid yourself; it wasn't just years ago.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

So sorry to hear this for you.. I can understand you being numb and _bitter_.

This as you say is a major set back in R. 
I myself would have to question his remorse and commitment through these 2 years.

I have not followed your story however, so all I can do is offer you prayers and thoughts to heal, in whichever direction that takes you.

(((Hugs)))


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## 45188 (Sep 13, 2012)

Rowan, you need to get the full truth from him. By not fighting. He has to be wholly honest. The fact that he came forward to you means that he's at least making an effort. I'm not taking this guys side, I think he's a *********, I'm just saying.. Don't flip out. If you don't flip out, you'll find out everything, and then you'll be able to decide what you want to do.

I am so so sorry for you, and so sorry to hear this from you. 3 women though.. I don't think I'd be able to recover from that. I'm having trouble getting over an EA..


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## StagesOfGrief (Aug 19, 2012)

He told me - when I came back after vomitting - that he actually felt like a weight had been lifted off of his chest now that he'd been honest. [/QUOTE said:


> Ha, yeah I feel you on that one my STBXW said that to me after her like 4th/5th version of the story and said it was a "relief that it was all in the open now"...
> 
> i pretty much wanted to jump off the balcony (figure of speech).
> 
> ...


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

That's one helluva Trickle Truthing SOB. I would kick him out until the words. "you're not handling things properly are out of his vocabulary" I wish that you were getting past the numb part and to the question asking part. LIke why did it take him two years to admit this? How much can I really trust him? I know you love the guy but are you happy with all of this. Are you sure he will never do it again. I mean I'd have him served with D papers so he could get a kick in the head. Just so he knows how precarious of a position he is really in.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

There's trickle truthing and then theres TRICKLE BOMBING!!!! Holy Moses.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Rowan said:


> Hope, we did a solid 8 months of MC together between D-Day 1 and D-Day 2. I did IC with our MC for another 6 months after that.
> 
> I've read pretty much every reputable book on infidelity, relationships and marriage. I've worked on myself a lot. I changed the things I needed to about myself in order to find emotional health and get my self esteem back. I stopped being a doormat and began insisting that he actually participate in married and family life. We began having date nights again routinely.
> 
> ...


What a pity you and he did not have that resource back then. 

This is a horrible situation for you. Sorry you are going through it.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

We're going to spend some time talking tonight after our son goes to bed. Hard to have a real conversation anywhere in the house with a 12 year old boy around. I have a number of questions that he still hasn't answered. It's like starting completely over in dealing with each affair. As if the last 2 years had never happened. 

He's known for some time now that our marriage wasn't substantially better by the end of the year that I was done. I'm not really sure where his new revelations leave me right now. I have a child, so I can't afford snap decisions. But, I honestly don't know if I can continue being married to someone that I have no faith I will ever be able to trust out of my direct sight. I also don't know if he will be able to accept the conditions I will need to move forward. He's always been very resistant to and resentful of anything he views as even mildly controlling.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Rowan said:


> He's always been very resistant to and resentful of anything he views as even mildly controlling.


 Then he's never really been remorseful. He's never put himself in your shoes and tried to feel your pain. It's always really been just about him.

Not a great start.

Maybe he could use a few months on his own, to realize what he's about to throw away?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

turnera said:


> *Then he's never really been remorseful. He's never put himself in your shoes and tried to feel your pain. It's always really been just about him.*
> 
> Not a great start.
> 
> Maybe he could use a few months on his own, to realize what he's about to throw away?


This became very apparent during our talk last night. He really disputes the idea that he's a serial cheater. He thinks he should get credit for all the times he didn't cheat when he could have. He admits he was looking to cheat when he had the ONS, but argues that that's not really what he's like. He actually used the words "guilty pleasure" when talking about both the ONS and the sexting, and blamed both on the poor communication in our marriage at the time. He just wasn't getting what he needed from our marriage. But he continues to also say that he thought we had a great marriage. 

He's still so "foggy" sounding that at this point I'm pretty sure it's not fog, but rather just him. I always knew he was a stubborn adrenaline junky with an addictive personality and that he could be immature and selfish sometimes. He does such a good job making everyone think he's such a great guy, that he even managed to fool me for many years into believing all the problems in our marriage were my fault. Now that I am no longer willing to twist myself into a pretzel to accomodate this "wonderful, great guy" I married (seriously, everyone who knows him/us is always going on about what a wonderful man he is, how lucky I am to have such a fantastic husband, etc.), it's more and more clear all the time that he didn't simply do something selfish (have an EA) but that he_ is a deeply selfish person_.

I don't do trial separations. When/if we separate, we will be moving on a divorce. I have let him know what I need him to do in order for me to even keep talking about trying another reconcilliation. He's perfectly willing to do some of the items on my list. He's openly balking on others. I've asked him to think about it and let me know what his decision is by Sunday, but that there are no half-measures. He either does what I need or we're done. I refuse to poke and prod him into anything at this point, so he either starts doing the heavy lifting or I'll have my answer. At this point, I don't have much hope for true R and I refuse to participate in another false R.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm sorry. But you're right on track. You can rarely make a selfish person NOT selfish. It's who they are.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Yeah, that sucks, and I feel for you. But you are doing the right thing. Hugs to you.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

This is just terrible. I'm so sorry you are going through yet another Dday. R is hard enough as it is. You must be absolutely gutted.
I am 6 months into R and this thread makes my heart sink. 2 years in, all the hard work, I really don't think I could go through it all again. It's sole destroying.
Do you really think he can be truly remorseful and do what he needs to do?
Search your heart, do you REALLY think he can change?
Maybe it's time to put ans end to all this heartache once and for all!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Rowan said:


> ... He really disputes the idea that he's a serial cheater. He thinks he should get credit for all the times he didn't cheat when he could have...


This is an argument that really gets me. He's really strong after all! He had lots of opportunity, but used his super-willpower to resist. You should be grateful, not hurt.

Sounds like, for him, you have to be his perfect version of a wife, or he might just do what comes naturally. The bad stuff is all on you, unless, of course, he deigns to discipline his natural urges - and then he gets credit.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Rowan said:


> Don't know why, but that song phrase has been ringing in my head all night like the most obnoxious earworm ever. It's even more annoying than that time I had She Blinded Me with Science in my head for three solid days during finals (science major, here). It's probably so bad this time because I actually do feel like I've been kicked in the head.
> 
> After a rocky 2 years of working at R, my husband finally admitted last night that he had not only been in love with the OW he had the 3 year EA with, but he had *also* - concurrently - been sexting with a woman at work *and *had a "one night stand" (that he kept in touch with for several months afterward) with a woman he picked up in a bar while he was on an out of town trip related to his main hobby. He'd also "flirted a little bit" with two other women. Several of his friends have known all the details this whole time.
> 
> ...


My STBEH made similar comments after learning of additional bad behaviors and that is why he is STBEH. 

I am all for reconciliation if the cheater is doing the heavy lifting, but if not, I say why waste time. 

IMO, in 90 percent of the cases when cheating is uncovered it is only the tip of the iceberg. There has been far more going on that the cheater got caught doing. 

I also think telling you so many years after the first dday is another way to hurt you. 

Sometimes people have affairs to make their spouse feel inferior so the cheater can regain control. 

I am sorry you are here.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Rowan said:


> Hope, we did a solid 8 months of MC together between D-Day 1 and D-Day 2. I did IC with our MC for another 6 months after that.
> 
> I've read pretty much every reputable book on infidelity, relationships and marriage. I've worked on myself a lot. I changed the things I needed to about myself in order to find emotional health and get my self esteem back. I stopped being a doormat and began insisting that he actually participate in married and family life. We began having date nights again routinely.
> 
> ...


What most cheaters fail to realize is that it is the lying and deception and theft of marital assets that destroys the marriage. Not the sexual aspects of an affair.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> What most cheaters fail to realize is that it is the lying and deception and theft of marital assets that destroys the marriage. Not the sexual aspects of an affair.


Very true!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

alte Dame said:


> This is an argument that really gets me. He's really strong after all! He had lots of opportunity, but used his super-willpower to resist. You should be grateful, not hurt.


This is also exactly the same types of conversations emotionally or physically abusive people have. You MADE me yell at/hit/cheat on you. You should be glad it wasn't worse. And it would have if I hadn't been so gracious and forgiving to you.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

turnera said:


> Uh...WHAT progress of WHAT marriage?
> 
> You have a sham of a marriage that is a CONVENIENCE for your husband.
> 
> ...


Better yet, just pack his bags, put them by the front door and change all the locks, and see an attorney like yesterday.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

I think canttrustu is right; he does not get it. 

It's like your insistence on this honesty stuff was to help unburden him of this weight he's been carrying. Right? Look, you got what you asked for. You should be glad that he feels better. "Well, that's done, now can we go back to before? Or move forward? Or replenish each other's love banks?"

And you are realizing there is no "before," there was no "before." Or there was a before but it turns out it isn't what you thought. You are realizing that you do not or at least did not know what "before" was. And whatever it was, you don't recognize it, it doesn't fit with your experience of before.

And as for moving forward, based on what? Here, Alte Dame nails it. It seems your husband's commitment to you, his wife, has been conditional (which really isn't commitment after all, is it?); his infidelity understandable, even justified, in context.

But now the two of you have understanding and honesty, you'll meet each other's needs, and the two of you won't let that happen again. Well, unless you do and it does. And when you do and it does, as between the two of you, the "you" who let it happen will be you. Right?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

To play devil's advocate, I know several men who are married, who look for a little nookie on the side...just because they can. They truly see nothing wrong with it. And if the wife finds out, well, they play along until she stops being upset and then go back to who they are. But nowhere do they really think they don't have the right (maybe obligation) to go out and get what they can. After all, they're men.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> I think canttrustu is right; he does not get it.
> 
> It's like your insistence on this honesty stuff was to help unburden him of this weight he's been carrying. Right? Look, you got what you asked for. You should be glad that he feels better. "Well, that's done, now can we go back to before? Or move forward? Or replenish each other's love banks?"
> 
> ...


LOL! That's exactly what H has in mind. Last night, he told me that if we'd had a marriage like the ideal in Marriage Builders, he never would have _wanted_ to cheat. And that now, we can simply start meeting each other's needs and be happy and he won't have to go looking for anything outside of the marriage. 

There now, all better!

Honestly, it's a bit like talking to someone and slowly coming to realize that person is clinically insane.....


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> What most cheaters fail to realize is that it is the lying and deception and theft of marital assets that destroys the marriage. Not the sexual aspects of an affair.


Let's not discount the sexual aspects. The defining feature of affairs is brutal selfishness incompatible with the marriage as understood by the betrayed. Which, I suppose is the similar to theft of marital assets, but in my mind more akin to a bonfire.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Rowan said:


> he told me that if we'd had a marriage like the ideal in Marriage Builders, he never would have _wanted_ to cheat.


You realize, right, that this is him blaming YOU for him cheating?


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

turnera said:


> You realize, right, that this is him blaming YOU for him cheating?


My thought distilled.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Rowan said:


> LOL! That's exactly what H has in mind. Last night, he told me that if we'd had a marriage like the ideal in Marriage Builders, he never would have _wanted_ to cheat. And that now, we can simply start meeting each other's needs and be happy and he won't have to go looking for anything outside of the marriage.
> 
> There now, all better!
> 
> Honestly, it's a bit like talking to someone and slowly coming to realize that person is clinically insane.....


Oh my!

I confess to giggling when I read this exchange, as it sounds like what my STBXH would propose. It's funny, but it's not really funny. Very narcissistic, as the WS justifies the cheating then blames the victim, the BS, and expects the BS (victim) to fix the problem so they won't cheat anymore. Sad and Twisted.


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## HealthyMe (Jul 2, 2012)

Rowan, I know your pain very well. I recently learned that our 9 months of R were a lie. My WH was still seeing and [email protected]#ing the OW the whole time. The original betrayal was awful, this last revelation takes it to a whole new level for me. I'm sorry. You are not alone.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

turnera said:


> You realize, right, that this is him blaming YOU for him cheating?


Yes. I know.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Rowan, have you ever read a book called Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men? I don't know your sitch well enough, but any time I hear a husband saying 'if you would have only,' my first instinct is to see if this book applies. I'd suggest reading it anyway.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

H is saying - "Hey, the marriage was crappy, we had problems, big problems. Sure, you didn't quite get that we did. But I could see it. What good would it do to try to clue you in? So what did you expect me to do? I did what any normal (what can I say? I'm NORMAL) guy would do. I went out and got me some. Not that I don't love you. I really, really do. And it's not that I wouldn't completely freak out if you went out and 'got yourself some,' because, after all, we have problems, right? You have to know that I was always doing my best and thinking of you. We weren't in a good spot and I had no choice with those other women. I couldn't bring myself to tell you knowing how it would hurt. I was always thinking of you. You get that, right?

But now, now we're really in a better place. So what good does it do to dwell? Whole new slate. You forgive me, I forgive you. We're even!

But if we start having 'problems' again...."


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Rowan said:


> ..Honestly, it's a bit like talking to someone and slowly coming to realize that person is clinically insane.....


It's like he's accidentally gaslighting you. He wants to convince you of a different reality. The thing is he's not lying on purpose to divert you the way a gaslighter does. He believes his alternate view.

With a purposeful gaslighter, the lies speak to a bad character.

With an accidental gaslighter, the twisted view speaks to questionable mental health.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

turnera said:


> To play devil's advocate, I know several men who are married, who look for a little nookie on the side...just because they can. They truly see nothing wrong with it. And if the wife finds out, well, they play along until she stops being upset and then go back to who they are. But nowhere do they really think they don't have the right (maybe obligation) to go out and get what they can. After all, they're men.


And I might have thought I would have been that guy. When I had a lot of play. And even then, as now, turned a lot away. But then we were married, we had a family, and then even the thought seemed rotten to the core.


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## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

And you're still with him because............????


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

turnera said:


> Rowan, have you ever read a book called Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men? I don't know your sitch well enough, but any time I hear a husband saying 'if you would have only,' my first instinct is to see if this book applies. I'd suggest reading it anyway.


I have read it. Some parts were relevant, but I wouldn't describe H as an abuser on the whole. His deal is more that he's selfish enough to be pretty much unaware that he's selfish. It honestly never occurred to him before we were in MC that two people could have different thoughts, feelings or perspectives on a given situation without one of them being wrong. He was a bit startled to learn that having a fully independent lifestyle that didn't take your spouse into account in any way was something that hurts a marriage. 

It is, as alte Dame suggests, as if he's an unintentional gaslighter.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> Let's not discount the sexual aspects. The defining feature of affairs is brutal selfishness incompatible with the marriage as understood by the betrayed. Which, I suppose is the similar to theft of marital assets, but in my mind more akin to a bonfire.


I agree. The sex should DEFINITELY not be discounted. 

For me, anyway, the sex could have been forgiven, it was the continued lying and deception about minor issues that drove me over the edge.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Rowan said:


> I have read it. Some parts were relevant, but I wouldn't describe H as an abuser on the whole. His deal is more that he's selfish enough to be pretty much unaware that he's selfish. It honestly never occurred to him before we were in MC that two people could have different thoughts, feelings or perspectives on a given situation without one of them being wrong. He was a bit startled to learn that having a fully independent lifestyle that didn't take your spouse into account in any way was something that hurts a marriage.
> 
> It is, as alte Dame suggests, as if he's an unintentional gaslighter.


Hmmm. How about the "Right Man Syndrome?" My husband has that. He's completely incapable of believing that anyone else could actually have a different belief than him and theirs be right.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> Hmmm. How about the "Right Man Syndrome?" My husband has that. He's completely incapable of believing that anyone else could actually have a different belief than him and theirs be right.


My mother simply called this 'thick-headed.'


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I know, it sounds stupid. But it explains my husband to a T. He literally cannot wrap his head around the possibility that anyone else has it right. I can argue for hours, and he still can't see it. Even in the face of facts. It's maddening.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> And I might have thought I would have been that guy. When I had a lot of play. And even then, as now, turned a lot away. But then we were married, we had a family, and then even the thought seemed rotten to the core.


HB - Just a short aside - what effected the change? The marriage? The children? Growing into a new phase of manhood? All of the previous?


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

I think I fell in love. Or at least fell into the idea of being in love. We had a beautiful young family. What was not to love?


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

I'm not a saint. There may have been a few years I was relatively well inoculated. But I probably notice more than most. On the street, at the office, in the grocery store, in the lodge, the waitress at lunch, whoever is walking by. Yesterday the totally hot girl in the phone store who was doing everything she could to get me to look down her shirt. I'm not immune. But I am faithful. Maybe because I am not clever enough for deceit.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> I'm not a saint. There may have been a few years I was relatively well inoculated. But I probably notice more than most. On the street, at the office, in the grocery store, in the lodge, the waitress at lunch, whoever is walking by. Yesterday the totally hot girl in the phone store who was doing everything she could to get me to look down her shirt. I'm not immune. But I am faithful. Maybe because I am not clever enough for deceit.


I don't buy the clever part, but I know what it feels like to not be able to deceive the person you say you love. Aside from an awareness of the deep hurt it causes, I'm amazed at the energy and time people will put into their deception. And that hurts, too.

Rowan's husband seems to be operating with a slightly different metric, though. A little twist on the average cheating spouse.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I'm amazed at the energy and time people will put into their deception.


I guess that's it. Deception requires a lot of energy and a big commitment. Big being relative to what you have to commit and inversely proportional to your ability to compartmentalize. By not clever, I meant simple. I don't compartmentalize. Not a matter of will or character. I lack the capacity. The ability to compartmentalize is I think morally neutral and often a wonderfully deployed skill and asset. Paraphrasing Tom Wolfe, "It's what you do with it."


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Rowan's husband seems to be operating with a slightly different metric, though. A little twist on the average cheating spouse.


Rowan's husband seems not to be able to escape the gravity field of his own perspective. We're all that way. Men especially. Chasing the relative physics metaphor, the term "dense" comes to mind.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> I guess that's it. Deception requires a lot of energy and a big commitment. Big being relative to what you have to commit and inversely proportional to your ability to compartmentalize. By not clever, I meant simple. I don't compartmentalize. Not a matter of will or character. I lack the capacity. The ability to compartmentalize is I think morally neutral and often a wonderfully deployed skill and asset. Paraphrasing Tom Wolfe, "It's what you do with it."


The word 'compartmentalize' itself has a clinical feel. Full commitment is much more passionate. David Foster Wallace said:

“The really important kind of freedom involves attention, and awareness, and discipline, and effort, and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them, over and over, in myriad petty little unsexy ways, every day.”


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> The word 'compartmentalize' itself has a clinical feel. Full commitment is much more passionate. David Foster Wallace said:
> 
> “The really important kind of freedom involves attention, and awareness, and discipline, and effort, and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them, over and over, in myriad petty little unsexy ways, every day.”


And apparently it is too much to bear.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> And apparently it is too much to bear.


Evidently for some people thats a true challenge indeed.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> And apparently it is too much to bear.


Yes. It is simply too hard.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

A lot of reconciliations are not really about reconciliation, but saving face, sticking with what's comfortable, etc. I'm not saying it can't work, but I'd say the vast majority of so-called "reconciliations" only serve as courses for the unfaithful to fine-tune their stealthiness. 

You deserve better than this piece of roadkill. Leave him; get out now.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

WhiteMousse said:


> A lot of reconciliations are not really about reconciliation, but saving face, sticking with what's comfortable, etc. I'm not saying it can't work, but I'd say the vast majority of so-called "reconciliations" only serve as courses for the unfaithful to fine-tune their stealthiness.
> 
> You deserve better than this piece of roadkill. Leave him; get out now.


Excellent point. 

I only found out about my husband's affair because someone outed him anonymously. 

In retrospect there were clues, I now know that from visiting TAM, but there was no way to prove anything. 

I also only found out about his continued deceptions, not pertaining to the OW, because the same person outed him anonymously, again. (Thank you, who ever you are.)

But back to your point. Yes, just like prisons educate criminals on how NOT TO GET CAUGHT so easily again. 

Being caught in an affair may only teach a cheater how to better cover his/her tracks and to avoid leaving crumbs of clues.

And, based on the number of WS's here who have experienced multiple ddays involving outright affairs, I think reoffending is a big issue.

I didn't want to have to live with that doubt and suspicion


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Excellent point.
> 
> I only found out about my husband's affair because someone outed him anonymously.
> 
> ...


*
I have thought about this. The idea that he would just be 'smarter' the next time around. More sneaky. You know- NOT talk about her so much, not use email as much or text. Use and alternate email I dont know about or a different phone and yes all of that is possible. This is where trust in myself comes in. I trust myself to be able to handle anything he can dish out should he so choose. I dont believe he will but I didnt believe he would do this so who knows. I do absolutely think this has been a life altering experience for not just me but for him as well. But should I be mistaken- I have alternate plans, otherwise I'd be a fool.*


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