# Need perspective



## Proba (Jul 27, 2014)

I am sorry for the long rant. I dont have a support system and I dont know where else to vent. Where am I in my marriage? My wife and I have been married for 7 years, together for 10. We have two kids, 4 and 2, and they are wonderful.

The last few years have been difficult for our marriage. Having two kids back-to-back was a marathon and unless it was taking care of the kids, we did not have time. We both put them ahead of everything. When we had free time, we took turns spending it on ourselves. The marriage took a back seat. 

Fast forward to a year ago. Things with the kids were easing up. We had more free time but we did not spend it with each other. We tried to reconnect in fits and starts, but nothing materialized. I felt her slipping away. 

At first it was sexual, she was just not interested. Was it me? Was I being too pedestrian? Did I let myself go too much? We both had, but I still desired her greatly. Then she started talking about feeling like she lost herself, like she was just a wife and a mother. She lost herself. 

So I gave space. She started working out, making a social network. She found friends she liked going out with. She started dancing again. I didnt think twice when she would go out by herself. I never had a reason to distrust her. It progressed into happy hours, nights with the girls, and even a weekend at a friends house in a different city.

During all this I made a few attempts to reconnect. At a nice dinner out, she told me, "Nights like this I feel attracted to you again." She meant it as a nice thing, but really, I read between the lines. I guess this means you are not attracted to me all the other times?

The sex dried up. It was only when I initiated, and most of the time I was rejected. I could deal with it, even though it hurt, but the warmth and affection dried up as well. The simple things I really craved -- a kiss, a hug, laying next to me close in bed -- it all went away. Then when day in the kitchen she pulled a matrix move to avoid brushing up against me when she walked by in the kitchen. 

Recently the "space" became a canyon. We took a long overdue family vacation, our first really, on a cruise. It was all her idea, she even booked it. The first day on the cruise she went down to book a massage. When she came back, she had booked so many different spa sessions that it meant all our alone time was gone. Our chance to reconnect was slipping again.

Things progressively got worse. We felt more like strangers. Her birthday was coming up, so I thought about planning her a special day. I talked to her about it at dinner, "I was going to surprise you, but since you might have to do this thing at work, why dont you choose? We could have a big BBQ with all your friends, an adult dinner with some other couples, or just a private dinner with me and you." That's when I knew something was wrong. She could not look at me in the eyes.

My gut told me to confront her. It was three in the morning, tossing and turning. I woke her up and asked her if something was going on. She denied it. I asked her to see her phone. She freaked. I told her if nothing is going on, then I am just an a**. Even though she was complaining, I found some things I did not like.

One was an exchange where she told a coworker she had just left and was in the parking lot. She had a bad day and needed a hug. She admitted he came to the parking lot but he was just a good friend who had been listening and helping her. Any older messages between them had been deleted.

In her trash email, I found an exchange that was way worse with another guy. He said he enjoyed talking to her, and would like her to come out for a drink sometime soon. He said, "I promise no transgressions, oh who am I kidding, I will probably try a thing or two." He made comments about how good she looked at work, and how he looked forward to seeing what she wearing every day. Then SHE proposed meeting him for a drink during the day after some function she needed to go by herself on a Saturday. They both agreed they would play it by ear. That weekend her sister came to visit, so she cancelled. She claims it was all a joke, she was never going to meet him. She was just flirting and playing along. 

I could give her space to find herself, I could deal with the lack of warmth and intimacy, I could let go of the sex -- but this is too much.

Did she cheat? I dont know. She never struck me as that kind of person. She certainly put herself in a position to cheat. The day before I confronted her, she told me she really wanted to reconnect with me.

She swears nothing ever happened with anyone. She told me she loves me, is in love with me, and wants to get back to where we were. 

Please, give me some perspective. I am in pain and I dont know what to do.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

She's lying. 

What do you do? First go see a lawyer and know what to expect if you divorce her. 

Start doing some secret surveillance. Voice activated recorder velcroed under the front seat of her car, key logger program on her computer, verify everything she tells you....take nothing she says at face value. 

Others will be along to elaborate.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Proba said:


> I am sorry for the long rant. I dont have a support system and I dont know where else to vent. Where am I in my marriage? My wife and I have been married for 7 years, together for 10. We have two kids, 4 and 2, and they are wonderful.
> 
> The last few years have been difficult for our marriage. Having two kids back-to-back was a marathon and unless it was taking care of the kids, we did not have time. We both put them ahead of everything. When we had free time, we took turns spending it on ourselves. The marriage took a back seat.
> 
> ...


Well, from what you describe here, I'd definitely say something is up. If you see the tip of an iceberg on the surface, there's loads more underneath, concealed.

People grow apart, especially when parenting of young children are involved. But those busy parents do not pull matrix moves to avoid touching one another. That's the sign of someone feeling faithful to a third party. Those busy parents do not panic when one of them asks to see the other's phone. That's the sign of someone with something incriminating on the phone.

So, either your wife is being truthful, in which case I would suggest marriage counselling as your marriage is in severe trouble even if no one is cheating.

Or, far more likely, she's lying to you and is involved with this guy, and sees a crack in the double life she's carefully constructing for herself. She's got you for income, co-parenting and stability, and him for intimacy and excitement.

Some detective work can help you figure out which it is. Put a voice activated recorder in her car. Snoop on her emails. Snoop on her phone. Lots of advice here on steps to take.

Also, look into the 180, also described around here. You may need strength if your wife turns out to be only a fembot.


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## WalterWhite (Sep 14, 2012)

Flirting and hiding it is in fact cheating.

You already know this. Stop minimizing.

Your wife is selfish and has stopped thinking about you and the kids.

Your wife is immoral scum. Sorry.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Proba said:


> Did she cheat? I dont know.


Want to find out? What kind of phone does she have?


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Did she cheat- odds are very high that it was physical. Obviously, she made the effort to hide it from you- why would she do that if there was nothing to hide?

Check back with her phone type. There are techy helpers here who can help you see old texts, etc. Definitely go stealth mode and do it ASAP.

Get a VAR, as soon as you can. Do it now, yes right now. Buy a Sony. Weightlifter has a great how to article on here. read it, follow it.

She will likely be talking to her friends or special someone else now that you have asked. 

She didn't set it up as a joke. Also, the deleted email- why delete some and not all. 

There is more than you know and it ain't good.

Do not confront yet- get more evidence.

Does she use a PC at home? You can put a keylogger on one.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

If I did it right, this will take you to a post from weightlifter. You need to read this.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Proba said:


> Then she started talking about feeling like she lost herself, like she was just a wife and a mother. She lost herself.
> 
> So I gave space. She started working out, making a social network. She found friends she liked going out with. She started dancing again. I didnt think twice when she would go out by herself. I never had a reason to distrust her. It progressed into happy hours, nights with the girls, and even a weekend at a friends house in a different city.


I said before women don't lie and men don't listen. Well women may lie with words but not with actions. What do you think her actions were saying? "_She found friends she liked going out with. She started dancing again. I didnt think twice when she would go out by herself. I never had a reason to distrust her._" 
Talk about an oxymoron. You had every reason to distrust her. Here's the way it is Dawg. Women that go out without their husbands do it because they don't want to be fettered by their husbands.
My take is the only one in your marriage doing without sex is you.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Based on what you have presented there is nothing to prove betrayal. That said, she was clearly open to it and even on the prowl. 

The fact seems to be she no longer loves you nor has respect for you

It's time to fish or cut bait. Demand a full accounting from her and suggest either rebuilding the marriage or a divorce. But, again, demand a full accounting.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Okay she is cheating and sorry you are here. You are in for at least two years of hell...from my experience. My ex did a lot of crap similar to yours (GNO, Not touching me, deleting texts (big red flag)) and I wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. I decided one day to "surprise" her and take a day off work and set it aside for us to get reacquainted and perhaps have sex. So this day she kept delaying and putting other stuff in the way of us being together. Finally when she had no more time to delay, she came upstairs to our bedroom and when I started to touch her she started squirming and then could not take it anymore and got up and left and made some excuse for getting mad at me. It threw me because she was always up for sex. We separated (or should I say she walked out) less than 2 days later. 
I have since learned she felt she was being unfaithful to her affair partner - now how messed up is that - being unfaithful to your husband on your affair partner? The irony is they do not want to be slvts by being dishonest and disloyal with their feelings for their affair partner. They feel they can only be loyal to one person and you are not it mate! Nor was I. Sorry you are here and sorry about the pain both you and your kids are about to go through. Infidelity is the gift that keeps on giving.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

You cannot fix a M with a third party in the mix or without full honesty about what she has been up to.

You need to detach from her emotionally while you investigate further into what she has done...your love for her is going to make you desperate and clingy if you don't check it while you figure out what the exact state of you M and W are...and being that way at this moment will be bad news for discovering the truth and deciding it the M is fixable.

Only talk to her about kids and necessities...offer her no affection or connection...just go about your daily business and investigate for old texts, e-mails, and checking phone bills in your free time.

Find out about these POSOMs...if they are M or have gfs, contact their BWs and tell them you have discovered inappropriate communications with your WW...this will send both of them running as they try to save their own a** and they will have no time to continue pursuing your WW...also the BWs may have info you don't, they may have caught something as well.

Your WW will notice your growing distance...if SHE initiates the conversation as to why, simply tell her that you are now unsure if your M with her can continue because her deception and inappropriate behavior gives you doubts as to her truthfulness of exactly what damage she has done to the M...without the full truth you don't think you can stay in the M.

Tell her you want a poly to confirm she is telling the full truth of what happened...and inform her that the truth will eventually be found out and if she drags this process out she will permanently damage the M and make it impossible for you to stay and fix it.

And the other posters are right about one more thing...buy a couple VARs and place one in her car and another in the part of the house where she goes for private phone convos...she will be talking to confidants or the POSs as this situation develops and you will gain important info.

Find out exactly what is going on and take steps to protect yourself emotionally.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Tell her that you are going to recover deleted texts from her phone. Notice her reaction.

Check cell phone records.

Find out about this coworker, if he is single or married.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Dyokemm said:


> You cannot fix a M with a third party in the mix or without full honesty about what she has been up to.
> 
> You need to detach from her emotionally while you investigate further into what she has done...your love for her is going to make you desperate and clingy if you don't check it while you figure out what the exact state of you M and W are...and being that way at this moment will be bad news for discovering the truth and deciding it the M is fixable.
> 
> ...


I understand the idea here, but for know you need to lay low and do your own recon. Get the vars, one for the car, one at home. Go through the list linked to above to gather intelligence.

Gus can help you with the phone, tell us what kind of phone she has.

Most importantly now, is what has she already changed about her single lifestyle?

Start working out now, get a new hair style, buy some new clothes.

Immediately get the two books linked to below in my signature, they can download MMSLP and but NOT JUST FRIENDS for you both. Do this as fast as you can.

What kind of shape are you in, do women hit on you?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

warlock07 said:


> Tell her that you are going to recover deleted texts from her phone. Notice her reaction.
> 
> Check cell phone records.
> 
> Find out about this coworker, if he is single or married.


I usually agree with warlock but in this case I think you should be acting normal and keep her unaware you are checking up on her.

Number one rule, NEVER REVEAL YOUR SOURCES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Once revealed you cant go back and use them again.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

the 180

*The 180

1. Don’t pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

2. No frequent phone calls.

3. Don’t point out “good points” in marriage.

4. Don’t follow her/him around the house.

5. Don’t encourage or initiate discussion about the future.

6. Don’t ask for help from the family members of your wayward partner.

7. Don’t ask for reassurances.

8. Don’t buy or give gifts.

9. Don’t schedule dates together.

10. Don’t keep saying, “I Love You!” Because if you really think about it, he/she is, at this particular moment, not very loveable.

11. Do more than act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!

12. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

13. Don’t sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!

14. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don’t push any issue, no matter how much you want to!

15. If you’re in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.

16. Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that “they (the wayward partner)” are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack there of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life…without them!

17. Don’t be nasty, angry or even cold – Just pull yourself back. Don’t always be so available…for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you’re missing.

18. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Make yourself be someone they would want to be around, not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self-assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

19. All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!

20. Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control. YOURSELF!

21. Don’t be overly enthusiastic.

22. Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!

23. Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Hear what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!

24. Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.

25. Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.

26. Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.

27. Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.

28. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

29. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It’s not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don’t care.

30. Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.

31. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It “ain’t over till it’s over!”

32. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.

33. When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don’t work out with the affair partner.
*


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

The 180 is for getting over a relationship. If your wife is being really being cooperative this is not the time for it. You do however have to verify independently everything she says to you.

If she is cheating or has been she will be a world class liar and nothing she says can be depended on.


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## Proba (Jul 27, 2014)

First of all, just wow, thank you so much for all your advice and support. Really, it means a lot. At this point I've already done some things that go against the common wisdom here.

I talked to her and confronted her. I went through her email and text messages with a fine tooth comb. Her gmail account is clean if you dont count that email exchange earlier and her texts were clean although she had deleted quite a few messages. 

She has an iPhone 5s, any recommendation for recovering deleted messages?

Also, she only has one app that is suspicious, something called Cubie. Seems like an Instant Message app that allows messages that expire and automatically delete. It has a password so I cant get in. Anyone have tips here?

I confronted her about everything and after a really long conversation I got reasonable answers to her behavior. In short, she liked the attention she was getting but it never went anywhere. I pointed out that she was putting herself in a position to cheat and that she was one bad decision away from cheating.

Did she cheat? The evidence points to some really shady behavior that certainly could have led to it. Did I catch her before anything happened? Possibly. Possibly not. 

We have agreed to go to counseling. I told her plainly, "I need a full accounting of any man you have a personal relationship with. Any email, text, IM, etc that is not of a business topic. If I hear a name or an event that you have not told me about, I dont care if it is 5 years down the road, I am packing your bags." I told her we would need to talk about it tonight.

In the meanwhile, I will continue my investigation.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Proba said:


> She has an iPhone 5s, any recommendation for recovering deleted messages?


Wondershare Dr. Fone

The above link is for the Mac version of Wondershare's Dr. Fone app. There is a Windows version available as well.

You can use the app in one of three ways...

1. Start the app on your Mac or PC and connect the iPhone in order to export texts (SMS/iMessage, and even some 3rd party apps), pics, recent phone calls, voicemails, contacts, etc directly from the phone.

2. Start the app and use it to export the same data from one or more locally-stored iTunes backups of the phone.

3. Start the app and log into iCloud using the Apple iTunes user ID (this will be an e-mail address) and password that your wife uses w/ her phone. If she has iCloud backups enabled on her phone, you'll be able to use the app to download several of the most recent backups for her phone, and then export the data mentioned above from them.

The app will allow you to export any of the above data that hasn't been deleted, _as well as *at least some of* what has been recently deleted_. If you don't find anything conclusive on the first pass, you can always begin exporting once or twice a day.

Make sure that you save and back up your exports! Use a USB memory stick or external hard drive (something that you can hide easily) to store them and, once you feel that you have enough evidence, consider leaving it in a safe deposit box. Additionally, store everything offsite in at least a couple of different "Cloud" locations (Carbonite, Dropbox, Google Drive, SugarSync, etc). When doing this, make sure that you're simply uploading the data instead of syncing it from your local Mac or PC; if you're simply syncing, and your wife finds and deletes the data locally, you'll lose your Cloud-based backups.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

> Also, she only has one app that is suspicious, something called Cubie. Seems like an Instant Message app that allows messages that expire and automatically delete. It has a password so I cant get in. Anyone have tips here?


very bad news.

just looked at it



> * Flash photos and whispers that disappear in seconds


if she is cheating, you wont find it out. 

maybe ask her to open it in person and check her contacts in the app. /if this guy is in there, assume the worst and go from there


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

OK, so your wife had to go and find herself.

Now, why is it that when a spouse has to go and "find themselves" the self they find is not someone their loyal husband/wife would like very much?

Ask your wife why she is cheating on her children? (She is cheating them out of a happy family life, so yes, she *is* cheating on her children.)

You need to send a message to your wife. How? Get your children DNA tested.

This is not to really establish parenthood (though it does, sometimes) in this context it is to send a very serious message to your wife: "See, wife? I can no longer trust anything you have ever said, or done throughout our courtship and our marriage. You even made me doubt if I have fathered our children."


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

Proba said:


> First of all, just wow, thank you so much for all your advice and support. Really, it means a lot. At this point I've already done some things that go against the common wisdom here.
> 
> I talked to her and confronted her. I went through her email and text messages with a fine tooth comb. Her gmail account is clean if you dont count that email exchange earlier and her texts were clean although she had deleted quite a few messages.
> 
> ...


 If it's me, I would have serious doubts and for good reason.

She got caught in the start of an affair. You know it and she knows it. So how does she try to smooth things over? Now she wants things to be what they once were. Two days ago she didn't. She's done everything to avoid you and now wants to make nice.

Warlock mentioned that cubie deletes photos and messages in seconds so your proof went down the crapper.

The best thing I can tell you is this. You want to know if she's still lying and you want to know if anything else happened, then tell her that you want her to take a polygraph test and make an appointment for her.

If she agrees to it then fine but if she hesitates then you got an idea that all isn't well and then you tell her either she comes clean with the test or she's out the door. Make it clear that these are the rules and there is no compromise.

Now it's her turn to squirm, have sleepless nights and have her guts tied in knots. She started this mess and now she can end it one way or the other.

Do not back down from it. You need the truth and she has to provide it. No more lies and wondering.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Me?

I'd go dark like the pitchest black night, work out like mad, dress well, and be out all the time. 

Like all. The. Time. With a huge grin on my face.

Let her wonder what the F you are up to for a change.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

okay, for your sake, I will share with you what went on between my ex months before we split.
1) my ex much like yours - kept deleting text messages over and over and when I asked her why..she said "I like to keep space on my phone."
2) my ex ALL OF A SUDDEN started going to see gynecologists which I thought was odd. She was never concerned about her health before - then she told me when questioned it was for a "prolapsed bladder" - then a week before she left I got a call from her gynecologist saying to tell her something came up in her tests - a week later she was gone.
3) my ex had an EA before she had the PA and when I confronted her she denied and just went underground. this is what I am afraid yours is doing. She is telling you it is done between you. she doesn't respect you.
4) finally, when I checked her fb apps she had all these apps active that were dating sites she would delete them and they would show up again. 
See any similarities? Point being....shes gone and doesn't respect you so your best course of action is to be proactive and take charge.
Show her who's boss!


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Proba said:


> Did she cheat?


Yes, because you don't have to take it to a physical level to be considered cheating/betrayal.

Even if she didn't take it to a physical level, she would if the right opportunity presented itself.




> She swears nothing ever happened with anyone.


Too late. Inappropriate communication with other men has already happened, and now you know she is more than capable of taking a liking to other men.



> She told me she loves me, is in love with me, and wants to get back to where we were.
> 
> Please, give me some perspective. I am in pain and I dont know what to do.


Well, with all that I have said, this isn't one of those situations that isn't too far gone that you could get back to where you were, even though I wouldn't be able to put it out of my mind if I were in that situation.

So if this is what she said, then before you can reconnect with her, the communication with these other men comes to a complete HALT.

She needs to send message to these men that she is done conversing with them. If it is work related, then talk at work about work. But no more emails, texts, whatever.

If she can do this, then start scheduling maybe one night a week or a couple nights a month for a date night or something. Get in the romantic mood, remember why you both fell for each other in the first place. 

If she can't completely cut communication off with these men, then start making plans for getting rid of her.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Proba said:


> She claims it was all a joke, she was never going to meet him. She was just flirting and playing along. Lie.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Yes, because you don't have to take it to a physical level to be considered cheating/betrayal.
> 
> Even if she didn't take it to a physical level, she would if the right opportunity presented itself.
> 
> ...



I agree with much here except what is in red. If these are coworkers she needs to quit her job. These men are foxes in the hen house. She sees them everyday. The EA never stops. Just trigger after trigger. It might be wise to alert the HR department of coworkers making hook ups on company time. Some will get fired. So will your wife. But hey, if you want to fight for your marriage then getting this exposed at her place of employment my be the only recourse if not the best recourse. Other than that...this high from the attention from coworkers will never go away. She sees them everyday.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Yeswecan said:


> I agree with much here except what is in red. If these are coworkers she needs to quit her job.


I would tend to agree, unless the men at work are men she does not need to communicate with and can be avoided.

Or, start looking for another job. Keep the one she has, but she doesn't stop looking for another one.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Any updates Proba?

How did the discussion go?


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

Proba said:


> I confronted her about everything and after a really long conversation I got reasonable answers to her behavior. In short, she liked the attention she was getting but it never went anywhere. I pointed out that she was putting herself in a position to cheat and that she was one bad decision away from cheating.
> 
> Did she cheat? The evidence points to some really shady behavior that certainly could have led to it. Did I catch her before anything happened? Possibly. Possibly not.


Of course you want to believe your wife, but unfortunately it really doesn't matter what she says. It's just the nature of cheaters that they lie, and lie very well. Discard anything she says and only pay attention to hard evidence and actions.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Cubby said:


> Of course you want to believe your wife, but unfortunately it really doesn't matter what she says. It's just the nature of cheaters that they lie, and lie very well. Discard anything she says and only pay attention to hard evidence and actions.


Cheaters lie with words.

It's rare that cheaters lie with actions, and even rarer that their body language lies.

You have the benefit of a few million years of cheater detection gear built into your instincts. It's called your gut.

Use it.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> Women that go out without their husbands do it because they don't want to be fettered by their husbands.


Truth. Unfortunately. GNO is the cheater acronym for "Gonna Need Orgasms" with another man.


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> Truth. Unfortunately. GNO is the cheater acronym for "Gonna Need Orgasms" with another man.


Another case of bad results from wife going out dancing and drinking. So many things follow a predictable pattern in the CWI forum, and GNO is one of them.


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## Centurions (Jan 31, 2013)

My sympathies, OP. You need to be hard and decisive, and stop with tolerating all the nonsense.

Phuck "GNO's". I don't understand why so many men tolerate such BS. Even worse, though, so many women expect and demand "GNO's". Read thread after thread after thread here--and such "GNO's" are almost always the first step to the wives whoring themselves out, with some sob story weeks or months later to the trusting husband, with "I'm so sorry! I made a mistake. It...just happened!"

I have a Mexican girlfriend. She has about 8 male relatives close; brother, uncles, cousins. All are married, from 5 to 35 years. I've noticed that *none* of these men allow their wives to go on "GNO's". And the wives don't expect or demand to go on them. They generally believe that to engage in "GNO's" would be terribly disrespectful to their husbands. Socializing is getting together with the family--children, husbands, everyone together. Oh, and these Hispanic women aren't frumpy and ugly, either. They dress up hot--but it's always to go out to dinner and dancing with their husbands.

My girlfriend has the same expectations of me. She expects all of my sexual attention to be focused on her, nearly every night, constantly. Socializing is fine--but she thinks we should always be together. On occasion, she goes shopping with a girlfriend, or I have lunch and a cigar with a friend. It's never for more than a few hours, and were always in touch. Cultivating some strange social life separate from each other just is not tolerated. 

OP, you shouldn't tolerate it either, brother! It never ends well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Centurions said:


> My sympathies, OP. You need to be hard and decisive, and stop with tolerating all the nonsense.
> 
> Phuck "GNO's". I don't understand why so many men tolerate such BS. Even worse, though, so many women expect and demand "GNO's". Read thread after thread after thread here--and such "GNO's" are almost always the first step to the wives whoring themselves out, with some sob story weeks or months later to the trusting husband, with "I'm so sorry! I made a mistake. It...just happened!"
> 
> ...


However, my female colleagues sometimes have GNOs. And they stay together and ward off any men who try to cut in.

So, we have two types of GNO. A real GNO which is a bunch of mates having a good time and going back to their boyfriend/husband.

Then there is the other type of GNO which is really a fake, a cover for going out to get sex with OM.

Good luck with telling them apart.


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## Centurions (Jan 31, 2013)

6301 said:


> If it's me, I would have serious doubts and for good reason.
> 
> She got caught in the start of an affair. You know it and she knows it. So how does she try to smooth things over? Now she wants things to be what they once were. Two days ago she didn't. She's done everything to avoid you and now wants to make nice.
> 
> ...


6301--make her squirm, indeed! I like your comments, and Warlocks and Gus too. You gotta be tough, and demand total transparency and honesty, if any R is going to work.

However, a part of me looks at all this stuff--investigating, polygraphs, DNA, Vars, etc. and wonders...what is the point? Why do I (you, me, etc)--have to do all this? If this is what the whoring wife has reduced the marriage to, it's better to just divorce and move on, you know? It all seems like such a horrifying fraud and betrayal, what is there left in such a marriage? Part of me just feels like its meaningless and futile. The whoring wife has just burned the heart of the marriage down that there's nothing left but ashes, and agony.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Centurions (Jan 31, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> However, my female colleagues sometimes have GNOs. And they stay together and ward off any men who try to cut in.
> 
> So, we have two types of GNO. A real GNO which is a bunch of mates having a good time and going back to their boyfriend/husband.
> 
> ...


LOL! Nice, Matt!

Hypothetically, certainly. It happens, like you testify. Does it not seem horrifyingly rare, though? And even if the wife does benign "GNO's"--if it ever changes to a sex-fest, the wife is the first to know, obviously--while the trusting husband is the *last* to know that the wife has changed the rules to the game, so to speak.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

OP. Read the top link on my signature for all you need step by step.

May have to rename Gus polinski to gusiphonhacker.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Cubby said:


> Another case of bad results from wife going out dancing and drinking. So many things follow a predictable pattern in the CWI forum, and GNO is one of them.


Well here is the thing, women will defend the GNO saying that all they want to do is dance with their friends and drink.

Ya, uh huh. If you had 2 identical nightclubs, but one only allows women, which one do you think they will go too?

Wouldn't be too much fun partying if other men weren't around, would it?


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