# Want to separate from amazing dad and husband



## guiltymama

New here.

I feel a bit nuts typing this, but here goes. My husband and I have been living together for 17 years, married for 8. We have three amazing children (ages 7.5, 5.75, 3.75). He runs a business and is moderately successful. I work part-time and provide some money and all of the medical benefits for the family.

We have had a good life so far, waited a long time before marriage even though we had been living together, and chose to have each child before we conceived. We began living together when I was 16 and he was 18. We were both starting college that year.

Short version is, I care for him, he is a wonderful person, we don't have any abuse or anything bad going on. We don't even call each other names. We both allow for each other to do fun things that we love, like going to concerts, working out, etc. But I have no passion for him, and I believe it's been this way the entire time.

Before we were married I tried to "get out" a couple of times in a passive way, without having to say "I want out." But it didn't go through. The closest was when I got a job as a nanny in Germany. His heart was broken and I just felt too guilty, so I didn't go through with it.

He's a wonderful father, a very giving sex partner, and wants to improve. So far he believes I'm having a crisis, and he doesn't understand what about, and he basically says he's never been happier (until just recently when he's realized we are not on the same page). 

I feel like I want to separate and try to grow individually. I think he could really benefit from it too. But am I nuts? Any person looking in would gladly take our lives, I think, and I feel so crazy wanting out. On the other hand, I just don't have any feelings for him right now, other than I care for him deeply, we have a long history together, and we are a family.

Help? I have an appointment in a couple of weeks with a therapist. He is willing to see someone but right now he doesn't even know what he would say or what his goal would be during an appointment, since this is "my thing." I don't really know what to tell him.

I'm imagining some kind of separation where we share the house for a while with the kids, and maybe each rent our own mini places too, although realistically not sure if that can happen.

Maybe this is just chemical - do I need a pill??? I feel so ungrateful saying all of these things, and feel so terribly guilty that I would consider disrupting our family and potentially seriously scarring our children, just for me to lead a more fulfilling life.

??? So upset and confused. Can't sleep, nausious, etc. Not sure how we can last this way for two weeks until I see a therapist! He is also basically getting drunk each night to be numb, so he doesn't have to "think." He says he's going in circles in his head, since I'm not giving him much to go on. Of course I haven't said most of this to him, because maybe it's just a temporary state of mind, and these things could be very damaging to him!

Thanks in advance!


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## Amplexor

So, who is the third person in the equation?


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## guiltymama

Neither of us have anyone else. I have never cheated, and as far as I know, has hasn't either. In fact, earlier this year, when I explained that I was in a depression, I also brought up both of us seeing other people. I thought maybe that would help "spice" things up a bit. We agreed that we were both open to the idea of one-nighters. We are really honest in that area, and so far, nothing has happened.


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## Amplexor

I threw that question out there as a challenge to you. Having been here as long as I have your story reads like a book. A great guy, questioning if you ever loved him, no spark in the sack, feeling you missed out and OBTW he drinks heavily now. A third party does not have to be some on you've slept with, it can be a mentor, friend, FBF,... any number of people who can draw your emotions away from your spouse. The fact that you've suggested you see other people is quite telling in that it is not your husband that is the problem and that you long for some one else. Again I am just asking if there is another party fueling this desire to leave, consciously or subconsciously


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## unbelievable

I think what you're feeling is completely normal. There are stages to longterm relationships and your's has naturally matured. A heart attack is exciting but that doesn't mean it's a good thing. Just because you don't feel fireworks when the guy walks in the room doesn't mean your relationship is broken. If you learned a Nuke was heading for your city and you had one hour to live, who would you want to spend that hour with? If you got really incredible news, who would you rush to tell? Mr. Wonderful Guy can pick up his game but it's pretty hard to find an honest, hardworking, compassionate guy who will still be Mr. Wonderful 17 years later. Even if you could find such a guy, he wouldn't be the father of your kids. Maybe you don't need to trade-in. Maybe your guy just needs a tune-up.


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## guiltymama

Thanks Amp. I feel really needy for attention, but not from my husband. There is no one specific that I can think of. I don't really have close friends - just work friends. I just seriously want space from my husband. I've always liked my space, but now that he detects how I'm feeling, he is trying harder, and it's completely turning me off even more. So strange how this all works. I can imagine finding someone and having a great affair, but can't really see that happening in a practical sense given the current situation.


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## guiltymama

Thanks "Unbelievable." Let me tell you some more about our history. When we first got together obviously I was young (16) as was he (18). I think he was my way "out" of town - literally - we moved to the current town we live in for school. I think over the last 17 years I have grown very self-confident, and found myself. I was very immature, looking back, and didn't have a lot of self-confidence. My husband has some self-esteem issues (aside from the very recent dive thanks to me). He is constantly concerned with what others think of him, even his fashion, hair, everything. He's kind of OCD about things, and can't be comfortable if we go out. We have taken several trips over the years because I love to travel, and they were all okay, but not amazing, and the last two were terrible. We just had NO fun together. It was really sad. I can't imagine dismantling our family, and damaging him so much, but then when I imagine a life like this forever (I'm only 33), it is SO depressing.

Thanks....


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## Amplexor

guiltymama said:


> , he is trying harder, and it's completely turning me off even more. So strange how this all works. I can imagine finding someone and having a great affair, but can't really see that happening in a practical sense given the current situation.


If your issues are truly with your husband you need to carefully explain to him that his actions are counterproductive at this point. He is reacting normally, especially for a male. He wants to fix it, he wants to draw you near but the more he pursues the more you draw away. Have you considered couples counseling?


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## guiltymama

One more thing - my husband reported this year that he's never been happier. I think it's because our sex life has been great. We're always nice to each other, etc. The thing is, I have had to be under the influence of something to get turned on. And in the past 2 months, even that hasn't been doing the trick. I can't imagine telling him this.


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## guiltymama

Yes - we're both willing. I see someone in two weeks, and then she can help us get hooked up with couples counseling. Thanks.


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## bribrius

i think it makes perfect sense. i think your husband should find some young hotty too that will rock his world. Forget the kids. who needs to do the family thing. And kids can recover quite well from marital breakups. Go have fun. you deserve to. And your husband can have the freedom to savor the spices of many women that will electrify him. The abilty to eat from a full plate of femininity and enjoy the buffet. He may even find the perfect one and his soul mate and fall in deep love with her. Sounds like a guys dream. you should explain to him he shouldnt be upset and should be busy scoping out his next bedroom conquest.


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## guiltymama

Sorry...can't tell if you're joking.


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## dumpedandhappy

OMG: there's no passion, so what's the question exactly? 
Be honest for God's sake! 
Tell him. 
And then move on without him and find a man that you can have passion with. 
IT's gonna hurt like hell...join the rest of us! But, better to have freedom and the truth than lies and captivity. Free the man. Free yourself. Life is too short.


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## guiltymama

Thanks for your honest reply. My question, aside from babbling!, is should I go ahead and separate and try to work on things as we are separated? Or should I try to work on things while we are in the same house? If we stay in the same house it will be much less shocking to him, and kids, but probably harder. I feel like a need a fresh space and change before I can consider working on stuff with him and counselor. I'm sure a counselor can help me in a couple of weeks with these issue, but that seems so far away!


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## sandc

Visualize your husband with another woman. Someone who does find him to be everything she needs and wants; a good provider, good family man, etc. Then visualize how happy you will be with your "space." You can do what you want with whomever you want, and not have to report back to anyone. Except, that your husband won't be your husband any more, he'll be *her* husand, whoever she is. And he'll care about her, not you. And then you'll be left with... what? What is it you're looking for? You need to clearly define for yourself what it is you imagine you're missing out on. And think very hard about what you'll be giving up if you separate. You may think he'll wait for you but... he may not.

I've been married 25 years. Love has an ebb and flow. It isn't something that just happens, that's infatuation. Marriage has to be worked on. You really learn to love someone over time.


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## guiltymama

Thank you "UserAwaitingDeletion." LOL stifled self - that's it!


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## dumpedandhappy

Listen, you asked: Tell him the Truth. There is no passion. He doesn't deserve to live in a lie, neither do you. Once he hears that, determine his attitude. If things get sour and ugly you must move out for the kids, no need to poison their home with your drama. I know, this part is the hardest and I am sorry for your kids and him for the pain they will endur, that is what the professionals are there for, get the kids to the counsellor and him. 
You? You're done. There is no passion. You dont need to work on anything. Be nice but remember: moving on. Find a place quickly. Move in as soon as you can. 
If you get too compassionate you will get sucked into the drama and it will hurt everyone even more. Suck it up. You are teaching the kids, him and everyone involved a lesson, that in life...tough choices must be made but change is a part of life, embracing it and surviving it are what life's all about. 
In the end, he will understand but probably not for now. It's gonna feel like hell, the tears, the hurt, the pain...but that is how it is...it happens all the time, everywhere, every culture, every race, every country. 

You have a whole life ahead of you, the kids will always be a priority but they will grow up. Better for them to have a happy Mom, established and living her life than one that is trapped and trying to make everyone happy at her expense. 

Today is your day to change, make it happen, live and let live.


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## guiltymama

Thank you sandc. I hear you. It's very hard to imagine and I think it would be painful. In relationships I always think we should be bringing out the best in each other, but that has never happened in our case. I think it is the classic "hooked up too young" story, even though we waited for 9 years until marriage and kids. We were great friends and still are. But we've been complacent. Now that I am waking up and feeling how short life is, that's what has me worried. He says he's never been happier but I think he has huge opportunity/potential for growth, and would be happier if he did grow. I wonder if there is someone who would appreciate him and love him and bring that out more than I do. I keep thinking over the years, "time will tell" if we are really in love and meant to work out. But nothing is actually changing, we're just getting older. 

For the past couple of months I've stopped the intimacy because internally I just couldn't handle the lack of enthusiasm on my part, even with help (under the influence, viagra for him, etc.). That led to several discussions between us, most recently last week he brought up the, "should we separate" discussion. Since then it's been really, really awkward and painful. Just waiting for therapy I guess!


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## guiltymama

Thanks UserAwaitingDeletion. Yes, we can afford a cheap place. But would it be for me? Due to our schedules I have the kids mostly during the day, and he has weekends and evenings available. I have read about where the couple splits and extra place and trades places between there and home. Sounds complicated! But too expensive to get two additional places, and don't want to start passing kids around at this early stage. Ugh.

I have to say this forum is refreshing that I am not alone!


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## Jeffery

once you go out that door you will Play around in very short order there will be no working on it. you might find that you really do love and want him but the damage you cause will not be able to be undone and you will have the rest of your life to regret it. So glade you are not my wife how horrible.


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## CH

So basically he's your 1st and now you want to experience life (mildly put).

Happens all the time. You missed out on life, didn't get to broaden your horizons, party like an animal. Get drunk and stumble home with strange people at odd hours of the night or morning. Have men chasing you around and making you feel like a goddess instead of a mother and wife.

So from your timeline it looks like you're 33 now. Still young enough to go out and party and live life.

Just to let you know, passion doesn't last forever like in fairy tales. Unless you're looking to chase men left and right and ditch them the moment the passion runs out.

You know why you don't find passion with your husband, he's the safe one, the good guy, the one your mom always told you to marry. He's too boring and predictable, no excitement and danger.

Do you know why he's like that? He's grown up and is more worried about taking care of his family instead of himself. I'm pretty sure he wants that young 20 year old with a smoking hot body to chase also but he doesn't because he's got responsibilities and little ones to take care of.

I want that sports car I used to have, not the mini-van I had to buy.

I want that vacation with the boys in Vegas, not a family vacation to Vegas where I babysit the kids and we're back at the room by 8PM because it's late.

I want to be able start my Asia tour and get one of my bucket list items checked off that I will never be able to do anymore because I'm married.

I want that huge 80" LCD TV in my computer room, TV room and bedroom so i can watch all the movies, sports and porn on them.

And most of all, I just want some quiet time to myself (well I get this 1 to 2 months out of the year lol) where I don't feel like jumping off the tallest cliff because the kids are driving me insane.

Just to let you know, the guys who give you that passion and excitement, usually aren't the guys you want to be with long term. They're good at making you feel the passion but most of the time they're good at making you feel like crap also.

Think long term, not just today and tomorrow. 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, what will your life be like with your family and without. If you see a shining white knight on the horizon that's going to scoop you up and whisk you away like a princess and you'll live happily ever after, probably not going to happen.

I know what my 5, 10, 15, 20 long term future is if I'm not with my wife. Women, women, women, women and lots of women. And you know what, as fun as that may sound it's not as full filling as having my kids wake me up with

I love you daddy.

Even though my oldest says I hate you daddy more than I love you daddy now a days lol. Teens


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## sandc

guiltymama said:


> Thank you sandc. I hear you. It's very hard to imagine and I think it would be painful. In relationships I always think we should be bringing out the best in each other, but that has never happened in our case. I think it is the classic "hooked up too young" story, even though we waited for 9 years until marriage and kids. We were great friends and still are. But we've been complacent. Now that I am waking up and feeling how short life is, that's what has me worried. He says he's never been happier but I think he has huge opportunity/potential for growth, and would be happier if he did grow. I wonder if there is someone who would appreciate him and love him and bring that out more than I do. I keep thinking over the years, "time will tell" if we are really in love and meant to work out. But nothing is actually changing, we're just getting older.
> 
> For the past couple of months I've stopped the intimacy because internally I just couldn't handle the lack of enthusiasm on my part, even with help (under the influence, viagra for him, etc.). That led to several discussions between us, most recently last week he brought up the, "should we separate" discussion. Since then it's been really, really awkward and painful. Just waiting for therapy I guess!


Good. At least you realize you got into this kind of relationship too young. I was a completely different person at 20 than I was at 16. At that age a few years makes a huge difference.

So if H has brought up separation then he's thinking about meeting other people too. Most likely.

Dunno. I hope you don't make any rash decisions. My wife and I were at a low point in our marriage once upon a time. She almost asked me to leave and wanted to divorce. That was about year 15 of our marriage. We kept working on things between ourselves. Went back to church, put God back in the center of our lives and made it through. While God may not be an option for you the point is that we didn't go with our first impulse. We stayed together and worked things out.

Now neither one of us can imagine life without the other. YMMV.


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## guiltymama

Thanks for your reply "cheatinghubby." Definitely on my mind. Trying to get the brain and heart in unison...


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## sandc

cheatinghubby said:


> So basically he's your 1st and now you want to experience life (mildly put).
> 
> Happens all the time. You missed out on life, didn't get to broaden your horizons, party like an animal. Get drunk and stumble home with strange people at odd hours of the night or morning. Have men chasing you around and making you feel like a goddess instead of a mother and wife.
> 
> So from your timeline it looks like you're 33 now. Still young enough to go out and party and live life.
> 
> Just to let you know, passion doesn't last forever like in fairy tales. Unless you're looking to chase men left and right and ditch them the moment the passion runs out.
> 
> You know why you don't find passion with your husband, he's the safe one, the good guy, the one your mom always told you to marry. He's too boring and predictable, no excitement and danger.
> 
> Do you know why he's like that? He's grown up and is more worried about taking care of his family instead of himself. I'm pretty sure he wants that young 20 year old with a smoking hot body to chase also but he doesn't because he's got responsibilities and little ones to take care of.
> 
> I want that sports car I used to have, not the mini-van I had to buy.
> 
> I want that vacation with the boys in Vegas, not a family vacation to Vegas where I babysit the kids and we're back at the room by 8PM because it's late.
> 
> I want to be able start my Asia tour and get one of my bucket list items checked off that I will never be able to do anymore because I'm married.
> 
> I want that huge 80" LCD TV in my computer room, TV room and bedroom so i can watch all the movies, sports and porn on them.
> 
> And most of all, I just want some quiet time to myself (well I get this 1 to 2 months out of the year lol) where I don't feel like jumping off the tallest cliff because the kids are driving me insane.
> 
> Just to let you know, the guys who give you that passion and excitement, usually aren't the guys you want to be with long term. They're good at making you feel the passion but most of the time they're good at making you feel like crap also.
> 
> Think long term, not just today and tomorrow. 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, what will your life be like with your family and without. If you see a shining white knight on the horizon that's going to scoop you up and whisk you away like a princess and you'll live happily ever after, probably not going to happen.
> 
> I know what my 5, 10, 15, 20 long term future is if I'm not with my wife. Women, women, women, women and lots of women. And you know what, as fun as that may sound it's not as full filling as having my kids wake me up with
> 
> I love you daddy.
> 
> Even though my oldest says I hate you daddy more than I love you daddy now a days lol. Teens



Don't be dis'ing the mini-van bro. My wife and I engage in all kinds of debauchery with each other in our minivan. More room to romp around in than a sports car.

Oh, and sign me up for that Vegas vacation. I think we need to have a family man retreat in Vegas.

Family men rule! :smthumbup:


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## guiltymama

Thanks sandc. I really appreciate your perspective since you have been married so long. It really is true - older is wiser.


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## guiltymama

So now another question I have is.... what should I say to my husband? He's in agony right now. I completely understand why. We're both kind of in limbo and I'm waiting for this magical appointment, and he's waiting for me to tell him how to change. Anyway, what can I tell him in the meantime that might help? Any advise? I kind of wish he would just go on vacation for a week until my appointment, but that's not an option. We are co-existing and dealing with kids but obviously it's tough right now. We're not fighting at all, just in pain and awkward and tiptoeing around.


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## dumpedandhappy

Cheatinghubby: not sure I understand nor do I agree with your comment, 
"Just to let you know, the guys who give you that passion and excitement, usually aren't the guys you want to be with long term. They're good at making you feel the passion but most of the time they're good at making you feel like crap also."

I would disagree in fact: passion is excitement for most of us out there, and passion in life, at work, in art, in love is what has inspired so much that is wonderful in this world! You are almost giving "passion" a bad reputation by your statement. I cannot agree with this, passion is what everyone wants, it compels us all and it can be maintained in a relationship...you will see those of us that are still passionate towards one another...years down the road...we are holding hands and smilign at each other as we play footsie under the table at the restaurant...we are drawn inexplicably towards one another and the years go by but we still feel as we did that very first day we felt the "zing". 

Of course, this is all my humble opinion.


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## sandc

guiltymama said:


> Thanks sandc. I really appreciate your perspective since you have been married so long. It really is true - older is wiser.


I wouldn't say wiser. Just been through more shat is all. I'm only 15 years older. But a lot of crap got packed into those years. 

Mama, I hope your husband doesn't end up losing you. I think you'll both lose out in the long run if that happens. Best of luck, hon.


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## sandc

guiltymama said:


> So now another question I have is.... what should I say to my husband? He's in agony right now. I completely understand why. We're both kind of in limbo and I'm waiting for this magical appointment, and he's waiting for me to tell him how to change. Anyway, what can I tell him in the meantime that might help? Any advise? I kind of wish he would just go on vacation for a week until my appointment, but that's not an option. We are co-existing and dealing with kids but obviously it's tough right now. We're not fighting at all, just in pain and awkward and tiptoeing around.


Why don't you guys start with this:
The 5 Love Languages | The 5 Love Languages®

See what languages you speak to each other? See which ones you should be speaking.

May not work but it's something to do until the magic marriage counselling appointment.

Also, have your husband read No More Mr. Nice Guy. Don't you read it and spoil it for yourself. Just let him read it and you sit back and watch.


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## more_waffles

This is a controversial topic on TAM, but you may want to consider reading the Married Man Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay. It was written for men like your husband who are scrambling to figure out why their wives aren't attracted to them anymore. You mentioned that your husband has been trying harder. I'm guessing that means flowers, helping out more, etc, but none of that is making him more attractive to you. Athol Kay provides a compelling explanation, and provides a roadmap for your husband to follow to be the man you are hot for. If you are on the brink of separation it couldn't hurt. Some people find it sexist, or overly reductionist, but I think it has some useful ideas.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dumpedandhappy

Re-aligning synapses isn't the answer. Reading a book? LOL

Passion. Without it you have none. How do you want to live? 
I admire a long term marriage, mine lasted 23 years.
But life=change. 
Don't fear life. Don't make excuses or rationalize why you don't have passion, its waiting for you out there and you can find it. 
To each of us their own, my path may not be perfect, but it's full of passion and that leaves me breathless and alive at the same time. 
Isn't that what she wants? Isn't that what everyone wants?


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## sandc

more_waffles said:


> This is a controversial topic on TAM, but you may want to consider reading the Married Man Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay. It was written for men like your husband who are scrambling to figure out why their wives aren't attracted to them anymore. You mentioned that your husband has been trying harder. I'm guessing that means flowers, helping out more, etc, but none of that is making him more attractive to you. Athol Kay provides a compelling explanation, and provides a roadmap for your husband to follow to be the man you are hot for. If you are on the brink of separation it couldn't hurt. Some people find it sexist, or overly reductionist, but I think it has some useful ideas.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Give it to your husband. Don't read it yourself. Give it to him along with the other book. You'll spoil the surprise.


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## sandc

dumpedandhappy said:


> Re-aligning synapses isn't the answer. Reading a book? LOL
> 
> Passion. Without it you have none. How do you want to live?
> I admire a long term marriage, mine lasted 23 years.
> But life=change.
> Don't fear life. Don't make excuses or rationalize why you don't have passion, its waiting for you out there and you can find it.
> To each of us their own, my path may not be perfect, but it's full of passion and that leaves me breathless and alive at the same time.
> Isn't that what she wants? Isn't that what everyone wants?



I don't understand, do you want to bang her or something?


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## bribrius

strings are best cut quick, clean, and straight.

just move out and file o.p. 
and go look for your love.
you will be doing your husband a favor. Set him free. And we can all wish happiness, freedom and hot women for him.


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## unbelievable

It really doesn't matter how y'all hooked up. Folks all over the world don't even meet or talk to each other before they get married and many of them have wonderful lives. If you both want it to work, you can make it work. Ok, the dude isn't Brad Pitt and doesn't blow your skirt up. He's also not cooking meth in the basement, beating you, molesting kids, living in prison, having sex with other women, men, or farm animals. Maybe life could be a little better but it could surely be worse. I believe contentment lives between the ears and has less to do with our circumstances than with out perceptions. Lots of women would, no doubt, think you're pretty blessed. Whether your life is heaven or hell depends largely on how you feel about it.


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## capacity83

What cheatinghubby said. Well done, well said. 

To be very honest with you, Men like him dont come by very often. And i can almost tell u how it all ends up if u do separate.

U meet someone. U date, have sex, fall in love with the new guy. Things are going well as u assume because u've never experienced it. Then things start to break down, problems arise with this new relationship. Different values, different problems, u name it. Then u start thinking about ur ex husband, how responsible he was etc. This could be a year, two years, even 3 yrs down the road.. but then it'll be too late.

EVEN if he wasnt with anyone, he'll probably not want to get back with you after all this. There is absolutely no reason for you to do this to your family and him. If theres anything to work at, its yourself. 

I can tell you this. Many many many and MANY couples go through this after being together for many years. Falling out of love etc. No passion - gr whtever you call it, its the same. 

Just remember, you're not just hurting him. You're also hurting you three children. Children whom u say u love. If you love them enuff, u'll look in the mirror and tell yourself to be strong and work some magic in your relationship. DO SOmething about it. Be proactive about it rather than sitting there complaining that thrs no passion. 

Do something spontaneous like get someone to look after the kids one weekend night and book a hotel room somewhere and do some kinky stuff. Comeon. Use ur creative mind.


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## Why Not Be Happy?

GM:
I agree with many of these posters-----you are in a rut. Very normal. Marriage is work. Jazz it up. Now is not the time to withdraw----think of his good points, your family, etc. and tell him (and show him) that you love him and that you want some more fun in your lives and relationship. Good luck!


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## Couleur

I like sandc's suggestion of handing your H 5 languages of love and MMSLP.

What kind of therapist are you going to see in 2 weeks? Is it an IC or someone that specializes in sexual issues? Have you considered going to your doctor to talk about your low sex drive? Is you sex drive actually low (do you orgasm on your own? do you fantasize about other men?) or is it just related to your H?

I also think you should really think about how you word "the talk." You can either say "I don't love you and I want out," or you can say "honey there's a lot that is good in our relationship, but I am unfulfilled and unhappy. I'm going to go see a doctor/ therapist to talk about these issues because I know (logically) that they are at least part in my head. But, I also want us to work together to see if we can up our emotional connection and passion. Are you with me?"


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## Plan 9 from OS

OP, I'm going to ask the question differently: What do you not like about your husband? What is it that you cannot stand? What actions does he take that get under your skin? Assuming you are telling the truth and there isn't someone else lurking in the background, you need to focus not on your husbands positives but the negatives. Why do I say that? Well, there is a smoking gun somewhere that turns you off about your husband. If you can find the smoking gun (or guns), then you can tell him what he's doing wrong. At least he'd have a shot at fixing it the right way instead of guessing. 

If I may take a stab at it...your husband is too nice, sacrifices too much of himself for the sake of your needs and puts you on too high of a pedestal. You can't handle the excess respect, feel guilty about it because you know the real you and subsequently you have less and less respect for your husband because "how can he love someone like me so much with all of these flaws?". Just a guess on my part, curious to see if I'm right.


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## guiltymama

Thanks everyone for your replies. I love seeing all of the different perspectives. I try not to think about all the little things that I don't like, because obviously I have plenty of those things, and I think that would happen in any relationship. Mainly I'm focusing on the lack of spark that we have had since the beginning, and the fact that I keep returning to this place over the years, and then I feel guilty and then suck it up and make things great, but deep down it still isn't fulfilling to me. Yes, just me. So I know this is selfish!

"Plan 9 from OS" - I think you are on to something. I think he puts my body on a pedestal at the very least. I feel worshiped, but for some reason that part isn't fulfilling. I know in my brain that seems very backwards, but that's just how I feel. I have a list of these types of issues, about myself, that I plan to discuss. The therapist I will be seeing handles individuals and relationships. 

I think a big thing about him, if I had to try to pin it down, is his lower self-esteem. It's just not attractive. He's hot, don't get me wrong! We are both good-looking and work out, and others call us "the cutest couple" etc. But I am a very strong, confident woman. I've been reading about this and I think the inequity causes me to not be attracted. when I think about other males that I have been attracted to (at least initially) - they are sensitive, like him, very intelligent, like him, but very self-confident.

I think there is hope. I guess I feel like we both need to grow and I feel like it needs to be kind of drastic on his part, in order for my attraction to get there. So that's why I'm considering the separation thing. I feel like it would be a "working separation" where we date, etc. 

I appreciate your input!


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## northernlights

How about a little time apart, like a 2 week long vacation by yourself? Having small kids is difficult, and I think it's really common to feel like the spark is gone in your relationship. I'm at the point with my husband where I don't feel anything for him (I also drink to get in the mood, and I think this is more common among women our age than we know. I'm also 33). But, we have kids, and I don't want to separate or divorce. So, I'm looking at our relationship as an arranged marriage. Plenty of people make arranged marriages work!

I'm also asking myself if passion is important all the time. I don't think it is. Hopefully it comes back, but I'm willing to give that a few years. We're also starting marriage counseling (I think? we're living in his home country right now and he was supposed to set that up. Right now he's just going by himself. I don't know why I'm not there).

Anyway, I think what you're going through is common. It still sucks though. My advice is to not do anything rash and give the relationship a chance to get back on its feet.

I'm reminded of my grandparents, who are still in love after 65 years of marriage. I guess it was rocky in the beginning, and my grandparents were once telling me that my grandmother was done and ready to get out at about 5 years in. She to told him, "I'm leaving and I'm taking the kids!" and he said, "you're damn right you're taking the kids!"

They can laugh about it now, but I know there were times when they were just together because they were married. And yet now, they're over the moon happy.

I dunno, I'm rambling. I feel like I'm lucky to come from a family that's honest about marriage, and knowing that it's not all sparks and passion, or even liking each other all the time, gives me hope. Do you have older friends or relatives you can talk to? Someone who's 70 to 90?


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## northernlights

Here, read this: it's religious, but it's where I'm coming from. I'm not saying it's right for you or anything, just something worth considering:

You Never Marry the Right Person | RELEVANT Magazine


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## anchorwatch

Sorry to repeat previous advice. Just a little reading to give you some insight. 

Give this book, Married Man Sex Life. to your husband for his reading. The title is misleading, it's not a how to sex guide. 

For your reading His Needs Her Needs.


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## Plan 9 from OS

guiltymama said:


> Thanks everyone for your replies. I love seeing all of the different perspectives. I try not to think about all the little things that I don't like, because obviously I have plenty of those things, and I think that would happen in any relationship. Mainly I'm focusing on the lack of spark that we have had since the beginning, and the fact that I keep returning to this place over the years, and then I feel guilty and then suck it up and make things great, but deep down it still isn't fulfilling to me. Yes, just me. So I know this is selfish!
> 
> "Plan 9 from OS" - I think you are on to something. I think he puts my body on a pedestal at the very least. I feel worshiped, but for some reason that part isn't fulfilling. I know in my brain that seems very backwards, but that's just how I feel. I have a list of these types of issues, about myself, that I plan to discuss. The therapist I will be seeing handles individuals and relationships.
> 
> I think a big thing about him, if I had to try to pin it down, is his lower self-esteem. It's just not attractive. He's hot, don't get me wrong! We are both good-looking and work out, and others call us "the cutest couple" etc. But I am a very strong, confident woman. I've been reading about this and I think the inequity causes me to not be attracted. when I think about other males that I have been attracted to (at least initially) - they are sensitive, like him, very intelligent, like him, but very self-confident.
> 
> I think there is hope. I guess I feel like we both need to grow and I feel like it needs to be kind of drastic on his part, in order for my attraction to get there. So that's why I'm considering the separation thing. I feel like it would be a "working separation" where we date, etc.
> 
> I appreciate your input!


OP, I think you just found your smoking gun... You want a life partner where the relationship is on equal terms. Right now you feel like your husband lowers himself and makes himself to be your servant or an adoring fan. You don't feel respect for him. You don't assign a lot of value to him because he's prostrating himself to you aka he's a doormat. This is fixable but it's up to your husband to fix it. You owe it to the guy to tell him why you no longer have a loving bond or feel physical attraction to him anymore. Over time, this makes you start to question your feelings and will inevitably lead to you "rewriting" marital history, i.e. "I never really loved him in the first place..." I don't buy that and I feel you obviously did in the past - you lost the feelings when you became the object of worship - especially when you can't rationalize why someone is worshiping you since you know your own failings and weaknesses. 

I would strongly consider NOT separating if you want your marriage to work. If you separate from a doormat, then you'll eventually want to sever the ties permanently. IMO, you need to stay in the same house and commit to the marriage - but he has to do a lot of work and effort on his end to reshape himself into the man he can be by treating you like an equal not an object of worship. Concurrently, he needs to demand more respect from you and take more control over the decision making in the household since my guess is that he is deferring most of it to you.


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## Amplexor

guiltymama said:


> I think a big thing about him, if I had to try to pin it down, is his lower self-esteem I have been attracted to (at least initially) - they are sensitive, like him, very intelligent, like him, but very self-confident.


P9OS Hits a lot of this very well. From my own experience a man's self confidence can surge and wane through out his lifetime. Since you are a "Strong" woman have you, over the years, usurped his place as a man, or has he relinquished it? Either way, what do you think you can do to help him regain or strengthen his self worth? You obviously find many traits in him as attractive and those are very fine attributes for a husband-father-man. Nothing feeds a man's ego better than words of affirmation and respect from the woman he loves. Have you actively pursued a plan to help him with these issues (Recently)?

Having experienced a wake up call from my wife via a 2x4 a few years ago, I will warn you, he is vulnerable now. He's fighting for his marriage and wife. He's questioning everything he's done in the marriage getting to this point and that will only serve to further beat down his confidence. Reinforce his positives and be honest with him in what he needs to do to improve the relationship. Otherwise he'll be stuck in an eddy.





guiltymama said:


> Mainly I'm focusing on the lack of spark that we have had since the beginning, and the fact that I keep returning to this place over the years, and then I feel guilty and then suck it up and make things great, but deep down it still isn't fulfilling to me. Yes, just me. So I know this is selfish!


I would not be surprised if you have already rewritten the marital history at this point and would suggest you focus on the positives of your husband by examining the impact on you and your kids if the family splits. Build him up in your own mind.

This appears to be fixable situation for a marriage that appears to have a lot going for it.


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## Rosemary's Granddaughter

You have no issue with your husband~ it sounds like his faults are quite mild. To break up your family for passion that may still elude you, with an unknown man (and with his unknown faults--whose quirks may truly be impossible to live with), is very selfish and immature. 

I am curious--how will adding sexual partners to your marriage improve it? This would be a highly dysfunctional choice.

How is it easier to divorce, and place your children in a precarious position (which is what you are doing--your posts belie any reference to "separation" and "working on the marriage"), than to correct what is wrong within your relationship with your husband? Along the same vein, I find it bizarre that you faked nine years with your boyfriend-at-the-time, then proceeded to marry him and *plan* children.


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## guiltymama

Thank you! I really, really appreciate this feedback. I'm feeling more hopeful already. I sent him the book info and I'll get that other one. I had previously looked at the love languages but had a hard time answering the questions!

Thanks again!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dumpedandhappy

Rosemary's Granddaughter said:


> You have no issue with your husband~ it sounds like his faults are quite mild. To break up your family for passion that may still elude you, with an unknown man (and with his unknown faults--whose quirks may truly be impossible to live with), is very selfish and immature.
> 
> I am curious--how will adding sexual partners to your marriage improve it? This would be a highly dysfunctional choice.
> 
> How is it easier to divorce, and place your children in a precarious position (which is what you are doing--your posts belie any reference to "separation" and "working on the marriage"), than to correct what is wrong within your relationship with your husband? Along the same vein, I find it bizarre that you faked nine years with your boyfriend-at-the-time, then proceeded to marry him and *plan* children.


Yes, better to live a lie then? Better to always want something else, screw honesty? 
Selfish and immature? Hmmm, how high-handedly spoken! "Self"-ish: so to look after one's own needs, this is wrong somehow? Immature? Really? So, stiff upper lip and sacrifice to demostrate the glorious path of the Mature Majority? 
"Precarious position?" Guilt...ahh I love that! Guilt a person into a love-less and boring trap. 
It was precisely becasue of all this clap-trap that she followed the path of "do as others" after nine years and married him out of obligation to other's pretences. 

Guiltymama: it's your life, and life is short...too short! People are resiliant, in the wake of personal disastors they shall find new strengths, new paths, new lives. Who knows what you will find but at least if you try, you will be able to be honestly living your life. 
The easy path is to just suck it up and smile, fold your skirt as you sit, pour tea for others, do as is expected of you. That's what everyone wants you to do...so do it. 

Or...live your life. It may not be the right path for all of the people here or anywhere, but it is just as correct as any path. 

None of us are right or wrong, the debate can wage on forever with no resolution. In the end, however, we are all to dust. In 100 years no one will remember. You have only yourself to rely upon. Do what your heart tells you is right, and fear not. 

God alone will judge you.


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## anchorwatch

dumpedandhappy said:


> Yes, better to live a lie then? Better to always want something else, screw honesty?
> Selfish and immature? Hmmm, how high-handedly spoken! "Self"-ish: so to look after one's own needs, this is wrong somehow? Immature? Really? So, stiff upper lip and sacrifice to demostrate the glorious path of the Mature Majority?
> "Precarious position?" Guilt...ahh I love that! Guilt a person into a love-less and boring trap.
> It was precisely becasue of all this clap-trap that she followed the path of "do as others" after nine years and married him out of obligation to other's pretences.
> 
> Guiltymama: it's your life, and life is short...too short! People are resiliant, in the wake of personal disastors they shall find new strengths, new paths, new lives. Who knows what you will find but at least if you try, you will be able to be honestly living your life.
> The easy path is to just suck it up and smile, fold your skirt as you sit, pour tea for others, do as is expected of you. That's what everyone wants you to do...so do it.
> 
> Or...live your life. It may not be the right path for all of the people here or anywhere, but it is just as correct as any path.
> 
> None of us are right or wrong, the debate can wage on forever with no resolution. In the end, however, we are all to dust. In 100 years no one will remember. You have only yourself to rely upon. Do what your heart tells you is right, and fear not.
> 
> God alone will judge you.


Is this the only support you can dole out to those in emotional crises, looking to solve their dilemma. Your experience is not everyone's. You've stated your thoughts on the OP's thread and other's more than once. It must bother you that there might be other thoughts on the matter or maybe it's that she takes some time explore them. Divorce does not solve problems in a marriage, it only ends a marriage.


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## sandc

anchorwatch said:


> Sorry to repeat previous advice. Just a little reading to give you some insight.
> 
> Give this book, Married Man Sex Life. to your husband for his reading. The title is misleading, it's not a how to sex guide.
> 
> For your reading His Needs Her Needs.


^^^ THIS

You would be amazed at your attraction level to him if you would only have him read MMSL. Have him read it please.

DO NOT READ IT YOURSELF!


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## sandc

anchorwatch said:


> Is this the only support you can dole out to those in emotional crises, looking to solve their dilemma. Your experience is not everyone's. You've stated your thoughts on the OP's thread and other's more than once. It must bother you that there might be other thoughts on the matter or maybe it's that she takes some time explore them. Divorce does not solve problems in a marriage, it only ends a marriage.


I'm beginning to think he knows her and wants her to get away from her husband. All the advice has been to leave.


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## dumpedandhappy

Actually my advice has been to be honest, to him and herself.
But you and others here seem to know far better than I about love. I am happy for you all. 
When one day you hear the words, feel the pain, I wonder what you will say then? 
I hope her path leads to happiness. That is what all of us deserve.


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## sandc

Our advice is no less honest.


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## Amplexor

dumpedandhappy said:


> When one day you hear the words,


Heard them!



dumpedandhappy said:


> feel the pain,


Felt that!



dumpedandhappy said:


> I wonder what you will say then?


Dug deep and fixed it. Took 3 years but I refused to throw in the towel.

I understand your point, but in this OP's case I see a very salvageable marriage and encourage her to turn over every stone to find happiness with her husband.


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## dumpedandhappy

Lucky you, obviously you had a partner that was willing to work with you. You had hope.
It takes two to Tango.
You can't change a person's mind. The only person you have total control over is yourself. 
Have compassion.
Understand their innocence.
Understand yourself.
Consider consequences.
Look for the lesson.

The lessons I learned were illuminating after 23 years, needless to say!


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## sandc

Oh the pain... the pain....


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## DavidWYoung

I do understand were you are coming from, you do not love your husband and you want a new life. OK, divorce him and move away, do not drag this out, jump out of your comfort zone and try to fly. You will either succeed or fair. In about 36 months look back and see if this was the right choice.


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## Couleur

Have you read Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay? 
The author, Mira Kirshenbaum, lays out 36 questions to ask yourself one by one to see if you would be happier leaving or not. And then she talks about how to interpret each of your answers in detail.

The questions are:
1. Thinking about that time when things between you and your partner were at their best. Looking back, would you now say that things were really very good between you then?

2. Has there been more that one incident of physical violence in your relationship?

3. Have you already made a concrete commitment to pursue a course of action or lifestyle that definitely excludes your partner?

4. If God or some omniscient being said it was okay to leave, would you feel tremendously relieved and have a strong sense that finally you could end your relationship?

5. In spite of your problems, do you and your partner have even one positively pleasurable activity or interest (besides children) that you currently share and look forward to sharing in the future, something you do together that you both like and that gives both of you a feeling of closeness for awhile?

6. Would you say that to you, your partner is basically nice, reasonable intelligent, not too neurotic, okay to look at, and most of the time smells alright?

7. Does you partner bombard you with difficulties when you try to get even the littlest thing you want; and is it your experience that almost any need you have gets obliterated; and if you ever do get what you want, is getting it such and ordeal that you don’t feel it was worth the effort?

8. Does it seem to you that your partner generally and consistently blocks your attempts to bring up topics or raise questions, particularly about things you care about?

9. Have you got to the point, when your partner says something, that you usually feel it’s more likely that he’s lying than that he’s telling the truth?

10. In spite of admirable qualities, and stepping back from any temporary anger or disappointment, do you genuinely like your partner, and does your partner seem to like you?

11. Do you feel willing to give your partner more than you’re giving already, and are you willing to do this the way things are between you now, without any expectation of being paid back?

12. Do both you and your partner want to touch each other and look forward to touching each other and make efforts to touch each other?

13. Do you feel a unique sexual attraction to your partner?

14. Does your partner neither see nor admit things you’ve tried to tell him/her to acknowledge that make your relationship too bad to stay in?

15. Is there something your partner does that makes your relationship too bad to stay in and that s/he acknowledges but that, for all intents and purposes, s/he’s unwilling to do anything about?

16. This problem your partner has that makes you want to leave; have you tried to let it go, ignore it, stop letting it bother you? And were you successful?

17. As you think about your partner’s problem that makes your relationship too bad to stay in, does s/he acknowledge it and is s/he willing to do something about it and is s/he able to change ?

18. Has your partner violated what for you is a bottom line?

* If my partner did……………………………………………………………………………..

…then I’d feel I’d have to leave the relationship

* If my partner didn’t do……………………………………………………………………

…then I’d feel I’d have to leave the relationship

* If these things were true about my partner…………………………………

…then I’d feel I’d have to leave the relationship

20. Is there a clearly formulated, passionately held difference between you that has to do with the shape and texture and quality of your life as you actually experience it?

21. In spite of all the ways you’re different, would you say that deep down or in some respect that’s important to you, your partner is someone just like you in a way you feel good about?

LIST

* Things I look forward to in my new life when I think about leaving

* Things I’m afraid of in my new life that make me think about staying.

For each item on the list ask:

* Is this true?

* Is this likely?

then

* What else is possible?

* What’s most likely?

22. With your new, more complete, more realistic set of information about what it would be like for you if you left, have you discovered new, more probable realities that now make leaving seem impossible, difficult or unpleasant?

23. With your new, more complete, more realistic set of information about what it would be like for you if you left, have you discovered new, more probable realities that now make leaving seem easier, more attractive and make staying no longer desirable?

24. Does your partner do such a good job of conveying the idea that you’re a nut or a jerk or a loser or an idiot about parts of yourself that are important to you that you’ve started to really become demonstrably convinced of it yourself?

25. As you think about your partner’s disrespect, is it clear to you that you do everything possible to limit your contact with your partner, except for times where you absolutely must interact?

26. Do you feel that your partner, overall and more often than not, shows concrete support for and genuine interest in the things you’re trying to do that are important to you?

27. Whatever was done that caused hurt and betrayal, do you have a sense that the pain and damage has lessened with time?

28. Is there a demonstrated capacity and mechanism for genuine forgiveness in your relationship?

29. Is it likely that, if you have a reasonable need, you and your partner will be able to work out a way for you to get it met without too painful a struggle?

30. Is there some particular need that’s so important to you that if you don’t get it met, looking back you’ll say your life wasn’t satisfying, and are you starting to get discouraged about ever having it met?

31. Given the way your partner acts, does it feel as though in getting close to you what he’s most interested in is subjecting you to his anger and criticism?

32. When the subject of intimacy comes up between you and your partner, is there generally a battle over what intimacy is and how to get it?

33. Does your relationship support your having fun together?

34. Do you currently share goals and dreams for your life together?

35. If all the problems in your relationship were magically solved today, would you still feel ambivalent about whether to stay or leave?


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## Mr Blunt

> Byguiltymama
> Short version is, I care for him, he is a *wonderful person*, we don't have any abuse or anything bad going on. We don't even call each other names. We both allow for each other to do fun things that we love, like going to concerts, working out, etc. But I have no passion for him, and I believe it's been this way the entire time.
> 
> He's a *wonderful father, a very giving sex partner*, and wants to improve. So far he believes I'm having a crisis, and he doesn't understand what about, and he basically says he's never been happier (until just recently when he's realized we are not on the same page
> 
> I just don't have any feelings for him right now, other than I care for him deeply, we have a long history together, and we are a family.
> 
> Maybe this is just chemical - do I need a pill??? I feel so ungrateful saying all of these things, and feel so terribly guilty that *I would consider disrupting our family and potentially seriously scarring our children, just for me to lead a more fulfilling life.*
> 
> 
> Neither of us have anyone else. I have never cheated, and as far as I know, has hasn't either. In fact, earlier this year, when I explained that I was in a depression, I also brought up both of us seeing other people. *I thought maybe that would help "spice" things up a bit. We agreed that we were both open to the idea of one-nighters.* We are really honest in that area, and so far, nothing has happened.
> 
> feel really needy for attention, but not from my husband.
> 
> 
> *I can imagine finding someone and having a great affair*
> 
> Thanks for your honest reply. My question, aside from babbling!, is should I go ahead and separate and try to work on things as we are separated? Or should I try to work on things while we are in the same house?



I don’t know about other men but I would not want a woman that had a husband that is a wonderful person, wonderful father, wonderful sex partner, had three children by another man, and wants to see other people to spice things up with one nighters, and imagines having a great affair with another man. I don’t care if the woman is hotter then the sexiest playboy bunny because that would be like a shiny apple on the outside with maggots on the inside IMO. But that is not even the worst part.

A parent that would seriously scar their children just because she thinks that she will be able to get her feelings fulfilled is; well you all can come to your own conclusions about that.

One conclusion is that guiltymama really needs to get help! That is an understatement. *Guiltymama move your appointment up as soon as possible and RUN to your therapy!. *


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## MrK

Sorry, I haven't read the entire thread. Being in your husbands spot, I would beg you to leave him. The greatest thing my wife could have ever done for me 15 years ago would have been to have left me. I'd be healed by now and married to someone who loves me. I don't think my wife ever had a passion for me either. I need someone who wants me. I'm old now. Kids settled. I'm done. Maybe your husband still has a chance. Give it to him.

Leave him for HIM, not you.


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## wtf2012

Your post finally stopped my lurking. I feel I must respond.

So I am your husband. My wife has recently said the same things. I think we are farther down the path after separating, and she has filed for divorce. If you separate, things will get more complicated. If you really feel that you cannot be happy with him, then you should divorce him.

But please think about his position. He is about to lose his family because his wife doesn't feel it for him, lost the "spark." It sounds like he is seriously trying to help rekindle it or find it in th efirst place. Whether his efforts increase your attraction to him or not, it sounds like he is a good person who does not deserve this.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE when you decide to divorce him (because ultimately I think that is what will happen, but maybe not I mean I am just a random person on the internet), do not minimze his role of father to your children.

I love my wife and I have tried to work it out with her. I am not perfect. I miss my kids like crazy. I miss being there with them every night and every day. I miss all the good things and crappy things of fatherhood. I hate that I am having to fight my wife for equitable time with the kids. I hate that I have little choice in the matter of becoming the good time dad who gets his kids one night a week and every other weekend. I feel like this is totally unfair, my sacrifices of being the sole breadwinner (two to three jobs always the last 7 years) are now going to bite me in the ass now that my wife the SAHM gets the house and kids after she fell out of love with me.

I now am having to spend thousands of dollars for the small chance that the random judge my wife selected will see how much I love and miss my kids and grant me a greater role in my kids life. This is what divorce does to people. I am fighting the idea that "transitions" are harder on my kids then marginalizing a loving, devoted father who sacrificed to make all the money, did my share of the house work, keep the kids for gno or other activities, coach the kids sports, support my grieving and sick wife, keep the kids and pay for a 2nd college degree for the SAHM who still does not work. 
I could not cause gina tingles on a regular basis and that failure has led me to becoming a marginalized parent. (So maybe my response is too much about my personal experience). Is this fair for your husband? Please let him coparent as much as wants (and is fair to you and the kids) if he really is a great dad.


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## stuckmick

^^^^
What he said....what a joke, honor your husband, your commitment. Selfish ,self centered nonsense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## conraddobler

I am in almost the exact same boat and am incredibly conflicted. My wife is a pretty, kind woman....and I just don't love her. Communicating with her has always been just a bit off and never flowing and easy. I had a very brief non sexual "affair" with someone several years ago and it really made me question my marriage (the "affair" was over at this point). We both went to individual counseling and after months decided that things were on the mend and doing well. After about a year we decided to start a family.
Now we have a beautiful 4 month old and those same feelings are now back in my head. I have talked with my therapist and she says it is clear to her that I don't love my wife and that we are not really compatible..we just don't have any connection. That said, I don't know how I tell her I want to separate. We've had a discussion that I am not happy in the marriage, but I agreed to see my therapist primarily because of our daughter.


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