# Porn akin to Cheating? Really?



## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Sorry to beat a dead horse but this has been on my mind the past couple of weeks and then a thread in "The Men's Clubhouse" brought it back to the forefront. 

A bit of history:

Raised and still a practicing Mormon. Obviously brought up taught that pornography was damaging on many different levels. I would agree wholeheartedly with that today and much of it comes from personal experience we (SO and I) have had over the last 5 years.

I was exposed to pornography early in life like many boys are via Playboy, Penthouse etc. I really liked it but that religious conditioning did not make me feel great about it at the same time. Obviously it was something that was not readily available to me and I really did not seek it out so there really was not an issue with it but in the advent of the internet I found myself at times really being overwhelmed by it all. 

I obviously did not feel great about it and eventually rationalized was there really something I had not seen at that point that I needed to see? I came to the conclusion that there really wasn't and was able to control participation with an occasional misstep. 

About 6-7 years ago my SO caught me in one of these missteps and the result was a very mature discussion about porn and she was genuinely concerned. It was a very humbling (in a good way) experience for me. 

Within a couple of years our relationship began to deteriorate. It took me awhile to understand what was happening and finding TAM was crucial for helping me get a clue. 

What I eventually found was that she was looking at porn in both written and video form. I was surprised but not angry although very much confused. Our sex life which had been sensational and a few times a week had become a rare treat that occurred 1.5 times a month. 

Finding our way back to where we were in our relationship has been fraught with challenges and we have made a bit of headway. All this being said we had a conversation a few weeks ago that really shocked me. We were discussing when she caught me using porn and used the "it was like you were cheating on me". Now I do not believe for a second she felt this way when she caught me. She was disappointed but that was where it seemed to begin and end. 

I truly believe she has "evolved" with the help of her new found friends that she hangs out with. Honestly I was to dumbfounded to ask her if she felt she cheated on me when she was looking at or reading porn. We will reopen this discussion soon but I must say I find equating porn to a PA or EA absurd. 

I have stated this before and I will again. Pornography is awful. There is nothing redeeming about it. The magnitude of abuse that many women (girls) are subjected to is reprehensible. To support it in any fashion shows a lack of good judgement at the very least. 

I never understood why women took such offense to pornography, some even divorcing their husbands as a result of them lacking the necessary fortitude to get the problem under control and save their relationship. I would tell myself "ok porn is bad but divorcing over it"? 

I was not initially offended when I discovered my wife's proclivities and really did not give it much thought until I realized she was replacing me with it. You see I never replaced my W with porn. Never would have considered it. I was ready willing and able anytime, any day multiple times and ways. I never felt so low in my life. I never had had an esteem issue in my life. The damage that porn can have to a relationship finally sunk in. 

That being said I could never equate it to a PA or and EA. That requires you to give something away. In the thread tonight the WW of the OP justified her Affair because he had a porn issue 3 years earlier that he had overcome. I was alarmed how many took shots at the OP's porn participation as "just a bad" as her PA. As I have stated I think porn is awful but equating it to a PA or an EA seems to be more than a bit myopic to me. 

Sorry for the rant.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Porn can be the about the same as an affair. Some people use porn to the extent that they have indeed given something away. We see threads here started by women all the time whose husbands have withdrawn into an online world of porn.

It's one of the things that ended my marriage to my second husband. It's not the porn. .it's that in these cases they do give away, or take away, something that belongs to the marriage (and their spouse).


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I would suggest counselling for you both. With a non-Mormon counsellor, both individual and as a couple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

I agree Ele. I have been in that boat. Porn has deeply effected the level of intimacy in our marriage and not in a good way. I think what bothered me about the post this evening is that the OP had worked on and overcome his issue with pornography. From what he shared it seemed that he did not have an addiction issue and his SO expressed her disgust and let him know he needed to stop. According to him he respected her wishes and although challenging he overcame the problem.

What bothered me in his thread were the number of individuals who put his viewing of porn (from 2 years earlier) on par with her PA.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> I would suggest counselling for you both. With a non-Mormon counsellor, both individual and as a couple.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Matt, I have a counselor and she is Mormon (and would never consider anyone who was not). My W will not attend counseling. She says that she thinks I have poisoned the counselor against her. Nothing could be further from the truth but it is a great strategy right?


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

There will be varying points of view of course but to me the viewing of porn may lead to an addiction that replaces fantasy with reality.
A wife nor husband cannot compete with that and it is in effect taking away something (physical and emotional) that should be shared with the spouse and not elsewhere.
The other spouse (non porn user) is affected deeply, feeling inadequate, ugly, abused, neglected, betrayed, etc, all the similar impacts of an affair.
As people say affairs are like drugs (addiction) when the WP is in the dopamine cloud, porn can be that way too.
Any rational sane person should not go down that road, as dicing with problems tbh.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

RClawson said:


> Thanks Matt, I have a counselor and she is Mormon (and would never consider anyone who was not). My W will not attend counseling. She says that she thinks I have poisoned the counselor against her. Nothing could be further from the truth but it is a great strategy right?


Is you wife cheating? Physically or emotionally?


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Is you wife cheating? Physically or emotionally?


Something has happened Matt or maybe I should say something did. There were several years that were torture with endless red flags. No smoking guns however. I do suspect an EA with plan A. Absolutely no proof that is not circumstantial.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

intheory said:


> I participated in the thread you are referring to.
> 
> I personally did NOT "equate" it to an affair. I stated it was a form of cheating. I stand by that statement; due to the emotional misery I have suffered from a SO using porn.
> 
> ...


*To your first point I believe I did and I quite agree with your second point*


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Elegirl said:


> It's one of the things that ended my marriage to my second husband


I am sorry. that is tragic.


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

intheory said:


> That is interesting. So, out of curiosity - you were able to watch porn, not feel sexually aroused by what you were seeing, not feel a desire to masturbate to these images and not ejaculate and feel physical release and satisfaction?
> 
> If your answer is, "No"; your situation is indeed singular.
> 
> ...


Question about this line of thought - Wouldn't fantasizing about anyone other than your spouse while masturbating fall under this umbrella?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

RClawson said:


> I agree Ele. I have been in that boat. Porn has deeply effected the level of intimacy in our marriage and not in a good way. I think what bothered me about the post this evening is that the OP had worked on and overcome his issue with pornography. From what he shared it seemed that he did not have an addiction issue and his SO expressed her disgust and let him know he needed to stop. According to him he respected her wishes and although challenging he overcame the problem.
> 
> *What bothered me in his thread were the number of individuals who put his viewing of porn (from 2 years earlier) on par with her PA.*


The two obviously aren't the same, but the_ effects _can be as though they are identical...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

intheory said:


> That is interesting. So, out of curiosity - you were able to watch porn, not feel sexually aroused by what you were seeing, not feel a desire to masturbate to these images and not ejaculate and feel physical release and satisfaction?
> 
> If your answer is, "No"; your situation is indeed singular.
> 
> ...


Would your view be the same if someone (male or female) did this as a release b/c they were not getting/having sex with their SO (for whatever reason, maybe a drive mismatch, other issues, etc...)? So technically they are not giving away their sexual energy/desire.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

intheory said:


> That is interesting. So, out of curiosity - you were able to watch porn, not feel sexually aroused by what you were seeing, not feel a desire to masturbate to these images and not ejaculate and feel physical release and satisfaction?
> 
> 
> If your answer is, "No"; your situation is indeed singular.
> ...


Oh I gave away energy but it did not diminish my desire to any degree. I believe that is why I had a difficult time understanding why individuals divorced over porn. Being on the other side of that equation opened my eyes to the issue completely.

Now I am quite sure my wife had an EA. If I found that to be true and if it is who I believe it was with our marriage would likely be over. The fact that porn was a consistent part of her life for a couple of years does not make me want to run out and file for D. 

Honestly I am glad my eye's were opened to how harmful porn can be to a relationship and why it can be. In my mind I cannot justifiably compare it to an affair. It is an entirely different issue.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

EleGirl not sandrwersoe said:


> It's one of the things that ended my marriage to my second husband





RClawson said:


> I am sorry. that is tragic.


Yes it is tragic... but it is what it is.

That post you quoted... 

1) it's text from by post earlier on.
2) sandrwersoe is a spam bot, edit the post and you will see that the bot inserted a hidden image at the end of the text. That's what spambots do.. it's for later data mining.

Please go into your post, change the name from 'sandrwersoe' to 'EleGirl' and delete the hidden image at the end of the quoted post.

I don't want to delete your post but I also do not want to leave the hidden image out there. I'd do the editing myself but don't want it to look like I'm changing people's words. Thanks


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Would your view be the same if someone (male or female) did this as a release b/c they were not getting/having sex with their SO (for whatever reason, maybe a drive mismatch, other issues, etc...)? So technically they are not giving away their sexual energy/desire.


I realize that you didn't ask me, but I would like to answer if that's okay.

My H cannot control himself when it comes to porn. He will watch it for hours...daily if he's left unchecked. When it got really bad, he was watching 2-6 hours of porn a day, every single day and sex for us became like a unicorn, nonexistent. He rejected me in favor of porn a lot so it did feel like cheating because he was wasting his sexual energy on porn. 

If my H didn't have this issue with porn - and we weren't having sex due to other issues in the relationship, then no I don't think it would be like cheating. It's different. If I am not actively participating in our sex life, how can I be mad at him for looking at porn? I wouldn't be. 

In my case though, I wanted to have sex daily and my H wanted to watch porn and get off to that daily. He chose the porn. I think many people don't want to admit that porn is a bigger problem though. It's the chicken/egg thing. If a W finds her H watching porn, she might withdraw sex because she feels inadequate, he feels he isn't getting enough, and turns back to porn again...or the other way around...W withdraws for reasons the H doesn't understand so he turns to porn...etc. 

I don't think that it's appropriate for some women to become angry with their H's watching porn if those women are refusing to have sex with their H's. If the H can control himself and watch occasionally without becoming addicted to it, then I really don't see how the W can be mad. She isn't interested in sex anyway. Why should it matter?

Either way, divorce attorneys are reporting that porn is stated as an issue causing divorce in 56% of cases. So, it's worth looking into and being open to the possibility that there is a such thing as feelings getting hurt over it. I don't think it should be ignored simply because one thinks they are entitled to it. In a marriage, porn should be discussed completely, because it can be that fine line that tears a marriage apart later.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Porn can definitely impact a marriage for the worse but it is not close to cheating.

People that compare watching videos on a screen to sucking and fvcking another persons genitals are missing some marbles.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

RClawson said:


> I agree Ele. I have been in that boat. Porn has deeply effected the level of intimacy in our marriage and not in a good way. I think what bothered me about the post this evening is that the OP had worked on and overcome his issue with pornography. From what he shared it seemed that he did not have an addiction issue and his SO expressed her disgust and let him know he needed to stop. According to him he respected her wishes and although challenging he overcame the problem.
> 
> What bothered me in his thread were the number of individuals who put his viewing of porn (from 2 years earlier) on par with her PA.


Curious. Which thread?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Porn can definitely impact a marriage for the worse but it is not close to cheating.
> 
> People that compare watching videos on a screen to sucking and fvcking another persons genitals are missing some marbles.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree. I wonder what a spouse who caught their significant other in bed with another person feels when they read watching porn is on the same level. Hurtful yes....cheating no.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Conan ~ I cannot find it now. It was pretty active last night. There are two possibilities. It has been deleted or I need more Ginko Baloba.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

staarz21 said:


> *I realize that you didn't ask me, but I would like to answer if that's okay.*
> 
> My H cannot control himself when it comes to porn. He will watch it for hours...daily if he's left unchecked. When it got really bad, he was watching 2-6 hours of porn a day, every single day and sex for us became like a unicorn, nonexistent. He rejected me in favor of porn a lot so it did feel like cheating because he was wasting his sexual energy on porn.
> 
> ...


Whoa Whoa Whoa ... let me check the rulebook ... OK, you are allowed to respond :grin2:

I am sorry you had to deal with that issue with your H. Not to say I haven't perused copies of Booty and the Beast or Mrs Assfire .... but definitely not something I was addicted to. Especially now, as long as things are going well with my wife I pretty much have zero interest in watching porn or "Jackin the beanstalk"... Heck, if I knew for sure my wife and I would have an active sex life (consistent) I would never bother with porn again, so I find it interesting that someone would trade off actual sex with a loved one for visual gratification.

I wonder if that 56% is actually porn being the driver of the divorce or it just being one of many issues. I would think just the pure ease of access to porn these days that number will only grow. Back in the day you had to actually pay for porn (and deal with hiding your credit card statement from your SO, so that probably kept numbers low) or go old school and try to watch the Spice Channel through a scrambled picture all in the hope of seeing a boobie  Now, you can get porn at your fingertip 24/7 without spending a dime.

Also, if 56% of divorces are due to porn, it would stand to reason that the other 44% is due to Facebook :grin2:


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Whoa Whoa Whoa ... let me check the rulebook ... OK, you are allowed to respond :grin2:
> 
> I am sorry you had to deal with that issue with your H. Not to say I haven't perused copies of Booty and the Beast or Mrs Assfire .... but definitely not something I was addicted to. Especially now, as long as things are going well with my wife I pretty much have zero interest in watching porn or "Jackin the beanstalk"... Heck, if I knew for sure my wife and I would have an active sex life (consistent) I would never bother with porn again, so I find it interesting that someone would trade off actual sex with a loved one for visual gratification.
> 
> ...


Oh I'm sure porn is just one of the many issues - they weren't specific, just said that in 56% of divorce cases, porn is stated as part of the problem now. 

It was more difficult to get your hands on porn back in the day. I think because it's so easily available now, many think it's really no big deal and they don't ever have that conversation with their partner. It's so very often overlooked because it's assumed that everyone is okay with it. 

The thing that's difficult here is that there are so many people who can watch porn and be fine. They don't feel a pull to watch it again immediately after or to watch it for several hours a day. The thread that the OP referred to, was a guy who seemed to have a normal use of porn going on (not that I'm an expert in judging), but a couple of times a week for 20-30 mins seems normal, and I don't think they were having sex as much as he would have liked to. 

I don't understand my H's behavior anymore than people on this forum reading it do. It's strange to me how he could want to watch that over have sex with me. I'm not an ogre for goodness sake! But he sure can make me feel like one with his actions. 

And you're right...the other 44% probably IS facebook haha!


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

What if the spouse who watches porn still enjoys a deeply satisfying sex life with his partner? 

When my husband is sleeping and I want sex, I use porn instead of waking him up. He has a long commute to work which burns him out sometimes. 

I could never choose porn over lovemaking with my husband. 

I agree that porn can ruin a marriage but not if the person who watches porn is not addicted to it.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Mrs.Submission said:


> What if the spouse who watches porn still enjoys a deeply satisfying sex life with his partner?
> 
> When my husband is sleeping and I want sex, I use porn instead of waking him up. He has a long commute to work which burns him out sometimes.
> 
> ...


I think that is part of the difference we were talking about, If you are using porn to replace your relationship with your SO in any way, than it is a big concern. However, maybe ask him if he is up to being woken up for sex, you might be surprised at his answer


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Porn can definitely impact a marriage for the worse but it is not close to cheating.
> 
> People that compare watching videos on a screen to sucking and fvcking another persons genitals are missing some marbles.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Missing a lot more than a couple marbles if you ask me. Generally found that the only people making such a claim have never actually experience the pain of being cheated on.


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> I think that is part of the difference we were talking about, If you are using porn to replace your relationship with your SO in any way, than it is a big concern. However, maybe ask him if he is up to being woken up for sex, you might be surprised at his answer


I like the way you think! >

My hubby doesn't mind being woken up if he has to wake up for work in an hour anyway. An hour gives us enough time to enjoy each other during the dawn. He also doesn't mind being awakened if he doesn't have to work the next day.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Porn is neither inherently good nor evil. It's a thing. 

For me, use of it comes down to intentionality. What is ones intention of using porn?

Such things as:
- a replacement for your partner
- a way of escaping your relationship 
- a way of getting back at your partner 
- an addiction that one has trouble staying away from

Etc are all generally negative things relationship wise. 

However, things like:
- enjoying together
- learning new sexual ideas
- learning what turns your partner on

Are all generally positive things. 

Then we get into murkier waters. Which is where intentionality is key. Is a husband or wife rubbing one out on his or her own bad? Maybe, if he's turning away from his willing wife to do so. Maybe not if his wife isn't willing or available - one can imagine a scenario where a married spouse is lonely and horny on a business trip and instead of sitting at the bar and being tempted by reality, he puts porn on PPV in his room as an act of self mate guarding. Or one can imagine a scenario where he has a particular kink that can't be expressed in reality without blowing up his marriage (like a 3 some) or the spouse simply doesn't want to do it. In which case, an outlet for such desires could easily and healthily be porn. 

I think what a spouse does with their own body and eyeballs is their own business as long as said business doesn't negatively impact the marriage. 

I find it fascinating when I experience spouses that want to mandate what is ok for their partner to do or not do with themselves, or what is allowed to turn them on.

We don't get to pick what turns us on. We don't have to seek what turns us on. 

But as adults, if one chooses to do so and doesn't harm the marriage... And another person isn't involved....

It's none of your damn business unless your spouse chooses to make it your business. Either by involving you (which is a supreme act of vulnerability and courage) or by diminishing the marriage (which needs to be called out).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

This is one of the most brilliant posts I've ever read on TAM!

You have really dug deep, deeper than most people ever go. The level of honesty you and your H reached is just inspiring! 

Porn can be an evil and it can be a delightful novelty. It can be used to hide and be selfish and lazy, or it can be used to explore, understand, and expand. It can be a tool for destruction and a tool for building.

Porn is what you make of it.



peacem said:


> Having been in the situation where my H turned from me for porn I would say that *at the time of discovery* it felt very much akin to cheating. I had huge trust issues, very low self-esteem, self-loathing and feelings of betrayal.
> 
> After exploring porn (particularly the sites he visited and his preferred genre) I found it was painful and yet a necessary step for me to fully understand his relationship with it.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

To compare porn to cheating requires an analysis of why cheating is bad:
1. It jeopardizes the stability of the relationship
2. When a PA is involved it creates some risk of disease transmission
3. It sometimes reduces the sexual energy available to your legitimate partner
4. It destroys trust

The main reason porn/vibrators can be destructive is when they siphon off sexual and emotional energy that otherwise would go to your spouse. 

And FWIW I make no real distinction between porn and vibrators. The truth is that people have sexual fantasies about folks OTHER than their spouse. Anyone who thinks their spouse exclusively thinks of them will using a vibrator is either highly optimistic OR has a very unusual partner. 

Treating a fantasy that doesn't involve direct interaction with another person as comparable to a 'real' affair makes no sense to me. 

That said, to the degree that this behavior is indulged AT THE EXPENSE of your partner and their needs, then it becomes a betrayal. Even more so if it's hidden. 

IMHO: and this is my personal opinion, and does not reflect the views of the folks who run the site

Any spouse who is adamant that porn is bad but vibrators are fine is a world class hypocrite. 




marduk said:


> Porn is neither inherently good nor evil. It's a thing.
> 
> For me, use of it comes down to intentionality. What is ones intention of using porn?
> 
> ...


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

intheory said:


> People who use porn do "give something away". They give away their sexual desire and energy.
> 
> And, as was my case, the porn-user compares you _unfavorably_ to the women in porn


I agree with you if husbands or wives have a habit of viewing porn alone. Do you feel it is still giving something away if a couple only watches porn together once a month? That is my case and watching it only lasts for about four minutes. We enjoy the audio. For what it's worth, I have never compared my wife or s/o unfavorably. Someone who shares their life with me is much more attractive than ANY porn actress, especially one a screen. 

And, yes, the audio really is more important than the video in my case.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I too participated in that thread and I NEVER said his porn use was on par with her fvcking another guy. I said that it's important to understand the damage it can cause, unfortunately there are so many guys that are so heavily invested in porn that you can't have a rational discussion about it. Everyone knows a PA is devastating but there seems to be a poo poo attitude when a wife is damaged by porn because it's just what men do. Hell, even a sexually rejected hb who can't come back from that is understood but a wife who can't come back from porn is ridiculed.

Can most of you guys really say that you'd be fine with your wife watching lots of huge d!ck porn? 

And to make the argument that you still want your wife is like saying that I got off to phone sex with some strange guy but still want my hb. Think that would fly? Some will say it's different with a live person on the phone but how is it really different? You're still getting off to someone else. 

I don't think porn is evil and I have been known to watch it now and again, but I can say that it does take away from the intimacy hb and I share. I don't read erotica as I'm not much of a recreational reader.

And I suspect hubby was watching more of it when he was out of work because I saw some things on his browser and while he was still willing with me he had more trouble. Since he's been back to work all of a sudden he works well again. 

I wouldn't compare porn to a PA but I'll admit I struggle with how it's much different then some EA's. Either way you're taking intimacy from the marriage. 

And I don't think vibrators and porn are different, I have some toys but I can honestly say I don't use them alone. Hubby is a sex god though and is very giving.

I believe I said that she took a situation that required a rock hammer and used an oversized sledgehammer. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## where_are_we (May 24, 2013)

I had never considered porn cheating or a bad thing either, until I discovered some things this year. 

My husband watched a lot porn, I didn't care and I knew about it
Watching porn escalated to live web cam
Live web cam escalated to paid live web cam
Paid live web cam escalated to free "f" hook up sites
Free "f" hook up sites escalated to prostitution
Prostitution escalated to my divorcing his azz...


anyway, you get my point. Ask me how I feel about it now. I dare you!!! LMAO:nerd:

My point being, when the act (porn or vibrators) replaces the partner instead of being an enhancement then it is not good.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Totally agree with this. Once your partner gets addicted to a self service amplifier - porn - vibrator - to replace a normal healthy sex life - that IS a Betrayal. Akin to cheating. 







staarz21 said:


> I realize that you didn't ask me, but I would like to answer if that's okay.
> 
> My H cannot control himself when it comes to porn. He will watch it for hours...daily if he's left unchecked. When it got really bad, he was watching 2-6 hours of porn a day, every single day and sex for us became like a unicorn, nonexistent. He rejected me in favor of porn a lot so it did feel like cheating because he was wasting his sexual energy on porn.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Intheory,

The way your H used it is a type of betrayal and is ugly. 




intheory said:


> I participated in the thread you are referring to.
> 
> I personally did NOT "equate" it to an affair. I stated it was a form of cheating. I stand by that statement; due to the emotional misery I have suffered from a SO using porn.
> 
> ...


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

I do view as a type of cheating for so many reasons. 

Even though you don't know them, they are real people. You are using someone else to get yourself off. 

For me an intimate relationship means being sexually committed to your spouse or partner and does not involve using other naked people to get off. 

If you can't accept that then move on.


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## gouge_away (Apr 7, 2015)

I certainly don't speak for everybody, but from my experiences, relationships that included porn rendered a very lackluster sexual enthusiasm. Relationships that did not include porn rendered untamed sexual enthusiasm. I can't explain it any other way, without porn all that sexual energy gets focused onto the one individual you are involved with, if they are receptive to 100% of your sexual energy, minds blown.

Porn kills intimacy, whether its accepted or not. Its junk food, lacks nutrition and spoils appetites for good hot look what I got sex.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I do view as a type of cheating for so many reasons.
> 
> Even though you don't know them, they are real people. You are using someone else to get yourself off.
> 
> ...


Can you talk a little more about that LD?

What if it's animated or drawn? What if someone made it themselves?

What if it's of your partner?

What if it's just in your head?

Not poking at you, honestly interested in this perspective. It was very much my wife's perspective when we first got together. She flipped out when I had a 'Maxim' magazine, for example. Which isn't even porn. But those words were pretty much her words.

It was like just because I was committed to her, all other human females should no longer exist, even conceptually.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

gouge_away said:


> I certainly don't speak for everybody, but from my experiences, relationships that included porn rendered a very lackluster sexual enthusiasm. Relationships that did not include porn rendered untamed sexual enthusiasm. I can't explain it any other way, without porn all that sexual energy gets focused onto the one individual you are involved with, if they are receptive to 100% of your sexual energy, minds blown.
> 
> Porn kills intimacy, whether its accepted or not. Its junk food, lacks nutrition and spoils appetites for good hot look what I got sex.


It may depend though, what if porn is being used b/c there is no or minimal sexual relationship going on? You are not replacing the sexual energy that would get focused on the other individual in this case. Could be anything from mismatched sex drives, couple is physically separated (i.e. one is traveling for work), couple is unable to have sex due to a variety of reasons (wife just gave birth, etc...)


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

marduk said:


> Can you talk a little more about that LD?
> 
> What if it's animated or drawn? What if someone made it themselves?
> 
> ...


I can't speak for Little Deer, but personally, what I object to in porn and things like Maxim magazine is the objectification of women, and the attitudes about women that enjoyment of such material reveals. I understand that this is a harder argument to make these days, now that everyone and their dog feels the need to be naked on the internet, and then ranked as to how "hot" they are, but my gut reaction is that treating people like meat for your gratification shows a basic attitude that I don't really have a lot of respect for. And certainly the porn industry is rife with issues around human trafficking, abuse, and exploitation.

If people want to make their own porn, I see no issue with that. Fantasies are the same, as it is all in your head (although some can take the fantasy thing too far). For animations and drawings, it depends really on the material itself, and again the attitudes it reveals. Although no actual humans were involved, I can't help but wonder at an attitude that thinks it's sexy to see women treated in the way that they so often are in these genres.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

always_alone said:


> I can't speak for Little Deer, but personally, what I object to in porn and things like Maxim magazine is the objectification of women, and the attitudes about women that enjoyment of such material reveals. I understand that this is a harder argument to make these days, now that everyone and their dog feels the need to be naked on the internet, and then ranked as to how "hot" they are, but my gut reaction is that treating people like meat for your gratification shows a basic attitude that I don't really have a lot of respect for. And certainly the porn industry is rife with issues around human trafficking, abuse, and exploitation.
> 
> If people want to make their own porn, I see no issue with that. Fantasies are the same, as it is all in your head (although some can take the fantasy thing too far). For animations and drawings, it depends really on the material itself, and again the attitudes it reveals. Although no actual humans were involved, I can't help but wonder at an attitude that thinks it's sexy to see women treated in the way that they so often are in these genres.


I totally get what you're saying. 

I guess I'm trying to reconcile that in my own mind with the reality that we all have kinks built-in. It's not really a choice, you know?

I'm not saying all of these are positive, or should be expressed. At the same time, I'm trying not to shame people for them, either. Not that I think you are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Oh. I missed a point. 

Why is objectification bad?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

marduk said:


> Oh. I missed a point.
> 
> Why is objectification bad?


If you have to ask this question, then you don't get what I'm saying at all.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

marduk said:


> I totally get what you're saying.
> 
> I guess I'm trying to reconcile that in my own mind with the reality that we all have kinks built-in. It's not really a choice, you know?
> 
> I'm not saying all of these are positive, or should be expressed. At the same time, I'm trying not to shame people for them, either. Not that I think you are.


Nothing wrong with kinks. What's important is that in their expression, people are consenting, are adults, and human rights and dignities are respected.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

always_alone said:


> If you have to ask this question, then you don't get what I'm saying at all.


No, I get it. At least I think I do. It's about not seeing people as fully fleshed out human beings right?

It's more of an introspective exploration for me. There have been times that I objectified my partner, for example. Where they just became a sexual object. And that seemed fine as a temporary excursion. Even though I love her, that just took a back seat for a few hours. 

You know what I mean?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

always_alone said:


> Nothing wrong with kinks. What's important is that in their expression, people are consenting, are adults, and human rights and dignities are respected.


I agree. 

My thinking is that there can be cases where one expresses said kinks via porn instead of with their partner. Maybe it can't happen in a physically monogamous way, or their partner doesn't want to do it, or it simply is impossible to have happen in reality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dycedarg (Apr 17, 2014)

I don't know if it's the same, but at best it fosters an unhealthy and unrealistic understanding of sex and love.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Dycedarg said:


> I don't know if it's the same, but at best it fosters an unhealthy and unrealistic understanding of sex and love.


I know this _can_ be so, but why do you think it is _necessarily_ so?

It has never been an issue in any relationship I've been in -- something we share together, or apart, or whatever. I've had some women be understandably insecure about it in the beginning, but that usually didn't last long.

And I wasn't usually the one to introduce it to the relationship, FWIW.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Dycedarg said:


> I don't know if it's the same, but at best it fosters an unhealthy and unrealistic understanding of sex and love.


Agreed, just as stated below


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

@RClawson

You indicated that you feel that her porn use has replaced you, sexually. Would you say that porn pushed you out, or did it fill a vacuum that was already there?

Did the relationship start to wane, and THEN she started the porn use?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

marduk said:


> No, I get it. At least I think I do. It's about not seeing people as fully fleshed out human beings right?
> 
> It's more of an introspective exploration for me. There have been times that I objectified my partner, for example. Where they just became a sexual object. And that seemed fine as a temporary excursion. Even though I love her, that just took a back seat for a few hours.
> 
> You know what I mean?


No, actually, I don't understand. What do you mean?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

always_alone said:


> No, actually, I don't understand. What do you mean?


My wife once did a strip tease for me. Went and took lessons, learned how to actually strip. Then came home and did it for me. Once. 

In that moment, she was no longer the woman I loved or the mother of my children. She was a super hot sexy stripper babe that I actually got to have sex with. 

She was purely a sex object at that moment. 

And there was much rejoicing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

marduk said:


> My wife once did a strip tease for me. Went and took lessons, learned how to actually strip. Then came home and did it for me. Once.
> 
> In that moment, she was no longer the woman I loved or the mother of my children. She was a super hot sexy stripper babe that I actually got to have sex with.
> 
> ...


Why only once?


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

Three thoughts:

1. It's not porn that is the problem, it's what people do with their hands while watching porn.

2. Porn (along with masturbation) is to sex as a bag of Cheetos is to a cheese soufflé. Unfortunately, in the age in which we live, a lot of people don't have the time and/or the know-how to make a soufflé, and many actually prefer Cheetos.

3. On a more serious note, humans (especially males) are hard-wired to become aroused while watching other humans copulate. It is this _'normal'_ reaction that makes pornography appealing. Condemning people who the use of porn, therefore, is like condemning people who overeat. Both are problems that result from sociological circumstances (the invention of photography, cinematography and the internet on the one had, and the invention of snack foods, cheap distribution methods and advertising on the other) the human race is not well equipped, genetically speaking, to deal with. The solution to either problem, to the extent there is one, take must take this into account.


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## gouge_away (Apr 7, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> It may depend though, what if porn is being used b/c there is no or minimal sexual relationship going on?


If your not replacing the desire for your mate with something else, then I don't see harm in indulging. Yet, like others have said it depends on the person, its easy for men just as well as women to develop unrealistic expectations of their partner because they were exposed to unrealistic media. Whether that media be porn, romance novels, or TAM.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

carmen ohio said:


> Three thoughts:
> 
> 1. It's not porn that is the problem, it's what people do with their hands while watching porn.
> 
> ...


Whar'd you get all this book larnin carmen?:smile2:


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

badmemory said:


> Whar'd you get all this book larnin carmen?:smile2:


skule:grin2:


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

gouge_away said:


> If your not replacing the desire for your mate with something else, then I don't see harm in indulging. Yet, like others have said it depends on the person, its easy for men just as well as women to develop unrealistic expectations of their partner because they were exposed to unrealistic media. Whether that media be porn, romance novels, or TAM.


It will be interesting to see if these unrealistic expectations only get worse with time with the younger generation as they are exposed to Porn at a much earlier age and with much more ease of access.


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## Dycedarg (Apr 17, 2014)

marduk said:


> I know this _can_ be so, but why do you think it is _necessarily_ so?
> 
> It has never been an issue in any relationship I've been in -- something we share together, or apart, or whatever. I've had some women be understandably insecure about it in the beginning, but that usually didn't last long.
> 
> And I wasn't usually the one to introduce it to the relationship, FWIW.


Well I'd have to say I agree. If two people want to have that in their relationship I could hardly fault them for it. In that kind of situation I doubt it would be any more harmful than other types of miscellaneous activities in human sexuality. 
I guess I was thinking of it in the context of one person using pornography without the knowledge or consent of their partner.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

carmen ohio said:


> Why only once?


It was incredibly challenging for her... she got really shy about it.

Plus, it's a ton of work. That's just for me, you know?

Once is amazing, and enough. Sure, I'd love more, but I mean I'm pretty lucky as it is.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

marduk said:


> It was incredibly challenging for her... she got really shy about it.
> 
> Plus, it's a ton of work. That's just for me, you know?
> 
> Once is amazing, and enough. Sure, I'd love more, but I mean I'm pretty lucky as it is.


Maybe she is just waiting for you to return the favor with your own Magic Mike moment


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> @RClawson
> 
> You indicated that you feel that her porn use has replaced you, sexually. Would you say that porn pushed you out, or did it fill a vacuum that was already there?
> 
> Did the relationship start to wane, and THEN she started the porn use?


No it came out of Left Field. 50 Shades, spanking sites, Literotica, xhamster. Our sex life had been on a pretty big crescendo from the beginning (We both had little to no experience). 5 years ago it was amazing and honestly we would comment on how good it was and then it stopped overnight. It definitely pushed me out.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

RClawson said:


> No it came out of Left Field. 50 Shades, spanking sites, Literotica, xhamster. Our sex life had been on a pretty big crescendo from the beginning (We both had little to no experience). 5 years ago it was amazing and honestly we would comment on how good it was and then it stopped overnight. It definitely pushed me out.


I'm sorry if I missed this already, but what did she say when you spoke to her about your concerns?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

RClawson said:


> No it came out of Left Field. 50 Shades, spanking sites, Literotica, xhamster. Our sex life had been on a pretty big crescendo from the beginning (We both had little to no experience). 5 years ago it was amazing and honestly we would comment on how good it was and then it stopped overnight. It definitely pushed me out.


What kind of porn is she watching? 50 Shades and spanking sites caught my eye.

Do/did you two ever engage in anything of the same nature?


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> I'm sorry if I missed this already, but what did she say when you spoke to her about your concerns?


She said she was just curious and it was not for very long (Lie)


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> What kind of porn is she watching? 50 Shades and spanking sites caught my eye.
> 
> Do/did you two ever engage in anything of the same nature?


There has always (it has diminished greatly) an erotic spanking element to our foreplay but what she looked at was way beyond that spectrum. Honestly I tried (at the suggestion of more than a few here) to up my game and ramp things up a bit. She really was not interested. It has been suggested she just ain't that into me and I would agree. 

She does seem quite comfortable with where everything is in our relationship. Yawn!


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

RClawson said:


> There has always (it has diminished greatly) an erotic spanking element to our foreplay but what she looked at was way beyond that spectrum. Honestly I tried (at the suggestion of more than a few here) to up my game and ramp things up a bit. She really was not interested. It has been suggested she just ain't that into me and I would agree.
> 
> She does seem quite comfortable with where everything is in our relationship. Yawn!


PERHAPS!...If instead of upping your game in the bedroom, you upped your game OUTSIDE the bedroom, and let it trickle down from there.

PERHAPS!...If you started being more dominant in your day to day life, she'd be more able to accept you being dominant in the bedroom.

I have a suspicion that the reason she might not be responding in the bedroom is because she knows it's not legit. She believes it's not legit because of the way she observes you day to day.

It's not easy if it's not natural for you, don't get me wrong. But it just might beat the alternative.

The whole "she's just not into you" is a cop out in my opinion. That applies in the dating world. She MARRIED you. She married you for a REASON. Maybe she's changed, maybe you have, but you have a history with this woman. That COUNTS for something. She wants something new. Give it to her.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Yup Foz you say everything I have heard before. I am the same guy I have always been (with some bitter added). What really happened? She rose professionally beyond her expectations while I lost my business. At the lowest point in my professional life she rubbed my nose in it ..........again and again. She lost respect for me and I lost the person I thought I married. 

Look I have been over this time and time again. Trust me the whole "She is not into me" really does apply. When you tell your best friend "I don't need him anymore", when you are reminded you make less money time and again, when she prefers vacation time with her friends rather than you................. I would say that counts as "she just ain't that into you".

I guess I would seriously try that stuff but honestly I just don't care enough any longer.


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## gouge_away (Apr 7, 2015)

RClawson said:


> No it came out of Left Field. 50 Shades, spanking sites, Literotica, xhamster. Our sex life had been on a pretty big crescendo from the beginning (We both had little to no experience). 5 years ago it was amazing and honestly we would comment on how good it was and then it stopped overnight. It definitely pushed me out.


What is literotica, my stbxw was into it, I just thought it was some sex story sub forum so I didn't investigate.

She never read 50shades. We did put some netflix 50shades show on once for background noise, but when they started talking about blood and toilets I had to turn it off and she switched to the usual Jennifer Lawrence flick. I swear that woman had a siscrush.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

That's what it was


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Hello, OP, Jack-Mormon here.:grin2:

I've experienced both sides of the porn coin. A former BF of 5 years loved porn. That was fine at first, he kept it spicy in the bedroom, but then it became too spicy. I felt like I had to act like the porn actresses to keep him interested. He kept upping the ante. Then one early morning I woke up and he wasn't in bed. I saw him looking at porn on the computer while masturbating. That hurt my feelings and back then, I did view it as a form of cheating.

Cue to present day. My BF and I sometimes view porn together and it's a very mutually satisfying experience. He has a tendency to be LD at times (although these days, it's a nonissue!) and we use it as a tool to help us along. 

RE: porn viewing as cheating? I don't subscribe to that point of view generally, but it just depends on the situation.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

intheory said:


> Wow, what a peach. :|
> 
> Add to that, her replacing you with porn (yuck) and not having any regard for your feelings about it.
> 
> And you stay with her because . . . . ?


It's a valid question. I have absolutely no answer.


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