# Navigating relationships: stereotypes vs modern expectations



## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

The threads on compassionate men, equality in dating, women desiring protectors and all of the Alpha stuff I see here inspired a thought or a theory I’d be curious to explore here. Bear with my broad generalizations; I’m not ignorant to the fact that there are many exceptions to the rule.

Usually societal changes occur over a long period of time but society is changing faster than ever. 100 years ago very few women worked out of the home, they didn’t have the right to vote and most women’s aspiration was to marry. Most men were expected to support their wives and children, go to war and basically were in charge of everything.

In only a few generations (which overlap and significantly impact the next generation) suddenly (in terms of the evolution of tradition) women are expected to earn just as much, pay half, men are expected to be nurturing and equally able to manage a home and children, all while the stereotypes of 100 years before are really only just beginning to wane.

My thought is, did we have time to adjust? Aren’t we still in the “figuring it out” phase? Girls are still mostly complimented on looks and seen as weak (remember the “like a girl” campaign) and boys are still considered powerful and logical. Boys are told to suck it up when they cry why girls are soothed so children aren’t groomed to be prepared for an adult life of equality. Think of the woman who gets choked up in a board meeting due to criticism – she wasn’t taught to suck it up. Think of the male who feels a little insecure because his date who earns more than he does, insists on paying the tab – a woman wouldn’t feel insecure when a man insists on treating her. 

And biology still dictates some inequities – boys are generally physically stronger and bigger; girls have an advantage in reading facial expressions and emotion. I don’t know if it’s a feeling of personal values being threatened or maybe an unease at not knowing one’s “place” but there seems to be an increase in gender-on-gender insults. Boys teasing boys who are weaker instead of being supportive of what they CAN do, girls teasing other girls if they aren’t pretty enough instead of being supportive of their brains or athleticism. Heck most music is all about a girl’s appearance or her sexuality and ability/desire to please. Whether rap, country, pop, etc. you rarely hear about a girl’s other attributes and most songs about men aren’t very uplifting – about their cheating or conquering; a few about looks but there are more.

I think we still have a long way to go in accepting equal but different. When comparing one facet of a person it’s easy to rank where one might be better or fall short, but I think it evens out. It’s going to take some time for these changes to happen and meantime there will be some growing pains. 

In another 100 years I hope people are people regardless of gender and ethnicity, each with their own unique set of strengths and weaknesses; each seeking a partner who complements them and brings out the best in one another. 

Do you think these stereotypical views are in conflict with what modern relationship advice is telling us? Could some of that dissension be causing some difficulty in adjusting to new expectations? Please chime in.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening EnjoliWoman
Very interesting issue.

Imagine the end scene in Titanic if it was the guy sitting on the makeshift raft while his girlfriend slowly froze to death in the icy water. 

I think people have very deeply rooted expectations of how men and women should behave. I have no problem with women being brave and strong, but some deep part of me still rejects the idea of a woman sacrificing herself for her husband when the reverse is possible. 

Men ARE judged some by their looks (Twilight Saga), but still in almost all romance stories the men still need to exhibit some "manly" trait: physical ability, courage or wealth. 

In stories women sometimes exhibit these things, but romance stories seem to only "demand" it of men.

(SPOILER)
Huger Games almost breaks this tradition: the heroine is the strong one - but it is also clear that the man she really desires is not the nice gentle, but weak guy, but the strong hunter. Part of the tragedy of the story is that she ends up stuck with the less "manly" man, who however "nice" is not the the one she desires.

Is this bias societal, built in programming? I have no idea. I just know that I couldn't live with the idea of my wife freezing to death while I sat on the raft.....


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

It really becomes what is innate vs what is taught. I tend to think much more is innate than we have been led to believe.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> It really becomes what is innate vs what is taught. I tend to think much more is innate than we have been led to believe.


I agree with this. I don't think I could be taught to choke back my tears, and I don't think the same things that brought on those tears will ever bring them on in my husband.

I totally agree that people need to be themselves, and especially not worry about labels like alpha and beta. I think what really makes marriage happy in the long run is a best friendship, just feeling totally comfortable and aligned with each other, and being a team.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
for any women in this discussion - how accurately do romantic stories represent what you personally are looking for in a relationship?


I know that I'm not particularly attracted to the sort of women that are shown in movies. I may be quite unusual, but a woman who is fun and interesting to be with means far more than physical measurements to me.


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

Stereotypes...modern expectations. Does anyone else happen to watch that Chevy truck commercial where they "poll" a "cross section" of people with pics the same guy in front of a subcompact hybrid car vs him in front of a Chevy truck and ask questions regarding his masculinity and every single reply offered up chooses the guy in front of the truck...I mean...ferreal? They even have kids where they ask what kind of pet they think the guy would own and the guy with the hybrid gets a bird whereas the same guy in front of the truck gets a German Shepard...indoctrination.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

EnjoliWoman said:


> The threads on compassionate men, equality in dating, women desiring protectors and all of the Alpha stuff I see here inspired a thought or a theory I’d be curious to explore here. Bear with my broad generalizations; I’m not ignorant to the fact that there are many exceptions to the rule.
> 
> Usually societal changes occur over a long period of time but society is changing faster than ever. 100 years ago very few women worked out of the home, they didn’t have the right to vote and most women’s aspiration was to marry. Most men were expected to support their wives and children, go to war and basically were in charge of everything.
> 
> ...


Really cool post, EnjoliWoman. I think you are right. It does take time to make changes.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> for any women in this discussion - how accurately do romantic stories represent what you personally are looking for in a relationship?
> 
> 
> I know that I'm not particularly attracted to the sort of women that are shown in movies. I may be quite unusual, but a woman who is fun and interesting to be with means far more than physical measurements to me.


I don't really read romance novels. I have liked some romantic comedies. Sleepless in Seattle and the Mirror has two Faces. I don't know if I was overly attracted to the male characters in those movies though. Actually, I always thought the historian on Stargate was really hot. Remember that show? And Stephen Colbert is pretty attractive. I like smart guys. Never been in to the bad boys or the heman type guys.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening MountainRunner
When I see a guy with a big truck that is clearly NOT being used as a truck (eg if it is all shiny, undented, no mud etc), I really do think he is probably insecure.

I have nothing at all against anyone who owns a truck because they regularly need to use it. 






MountainRunner said:


> Stereotypes...modern expectations. Does anyone else happen to watch that Chevy truck commercial where they "poll" a "cross section" of people with pics the same guy in front of a subcompact hybrid car vs him in front of a Chevy truck and ask questions regarding his masculinity and every single reply offered up chooses the guy in front of the truck...I mean...ferreal? They even have kids where they ask what kind of pet they think the guy would own and the guy with the hybrid gets a bird whereas the same guy in front of the truck gets a German Shepard...indoctrination.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Pooh Bear
I only watched a little star-gate (though it should have been my type of show), so I don't remember the historian. 

For women, I liked the engineer on Firefly. Also the geology grad student in Tremors (a fantastic movie if you haven't seen it). 

OK I admit that I liked Buffy the Vampire Slayer.....

The wilding girl in Game of Thrones is very attractive, but absolutely not my type. 

All of them are much too young for me (even when the movies came out).....




Pooh Bear said:


> I don't really read romance novels. I have liked some romantic comedies. Sleepless in Seattle and the Mirror has two Faces. I don't know if I was overly attracted to the male characters in those movies though. Actually, I always thought the historian on Stargate was really hot. Remember that show? And Stephen Colbert is pretty attractive. I like smart guys. Never been in to the bad boys or the heman type guys.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Pooh Bear
> I only watched a little star-gate (though it should have been my type of show), so I don't remember the historian.
> 
> For women, I liked the engineer on Firefly. Also the geology grad student in Tremors (a fantastic movie if you haven't seen it).
> ...


Hehe. So funny. We're total geeks.  Peter Dinklage is pretty attractive on Game of Thrones. And Keanu Reeves in the matrix. 

Did you ever see Little Buddha? I hated the movie overall but the story of the Buddha is in it. Keanu Reeves plays the Buddha. It's awesome. I love the story of the Buddha.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> for any women in this discussion - how accurately do romantic stories represent what you personally are looking for in a relationship?


Probably not very well. The focus there is often on appearance rather than substance.

The most important thing to me is deep emotional connection. We get that through transparently sharing our thoughts and feelings.

Another thing that is very important to me is that he is not deterred by my emotions. I can be angry, sad, fearful, etc., and he does not take it personally. He is just not afraid of me at all.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> I don't really read romance novels. I have liked some romantic comedies. Sleepless in Seattle and the Mirror has two Faces. I don't know if I was overly attracted to the male characters in those movies though. Actually,* I always thought the historian on Stargate was really hot. Remember that show? *And Stephen Colbert is pretty attractive. I like smart guys. Never been in to the bad boys or the heman type guys.


Dr. Daniel Jackson, played by the yummy Canadian actor, Michael Shanks. Part of what made the character so hot in that was how much he loved, and later mourned, his wife. Devotion like that is sexy. But, it didn't hurt that he was also buff and capable.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
There are still some characters a lot of women fine attractive that I just don't get:

Thorin Dreamboatshield: An Unexpected Hotness of Dwarves | Sarah Rees Brennan

Same way that I think Tyrion in GOT is an awesome character, but attractive???

Never seen little Buddah.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> There are still some characters a lot of women fine attractive that I just don't get:
> 
> Thorin Dreamboatshield: An Unexpected Hotness of Dwarves | Sarah Rees Brennan
> ...


Yeah. He is smart and doesn't put up with a lot of crap from his f'ed up family. Plus he has a lot of compassion that you don't see in the other characters. Plus the real guy has a pretty good sense of humor. I have seen him interviewed.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> There are still some characters a lot of women fine attractive that I just don't get:
> 
> Thorin Dreamboatshield: An Unexpected Hotness of Dwarves | Sarah Rees Brennan
> ...


Richard. This isn't fair. Peter Dinklage is a man not a mythical character. Even in GOT he is a man. The character is very aware of the prejudice against him. You should see Station Agent. He is fantastic in that. One of my favorite movies. He is married to an average size woman and they have a couple of kids.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I think we still have a long way to go in accepting equal but different.


That is usually not the message being sent, especially from the radical side of things. The message has been since the 1960's that equal means identical. There is little room for admitting men are stronger physically, women are more nurturing, etc. 

The message of identicalness has led to women feeling pressured to be SuperMom, having a high powered career while also being a great mother and great wife. Guess what? Nobody can do everything well. Men traditionally put a lot of effort into providing for the family, which meant they weren't all that available for domestic duties. Women didn't earn as much because they concentrated on domestic duties, especially when there were children in the house.

There is also a constant message of victimization, whether it be gender based or racial, ethnic, socio-economic, regional, etc. The equality movement has a strong bias towards punitive action against the perceived oppressors.

I don't think there is a strong message anywhere in pop culture that the genders are equal while different.

What's wrong with a woman becoming emotional in a meeting if she gets strongly criticized? Women are more emotional than men. Why should we expect women to be identical to men, or men identical to women?



EnjoliWoman said:


> In another 100 years I hope people are people regardless of gender and ethnicity, each with their own unique set of strengths and weaknesses; each seeking a partner who complements them and brings out the best in one another.


Again this is not the message in society. MLK was an outlier with his message of judging a person by the content of their character. Too many professional agitators and radical agendas drive the public message. They seek to *first* identify a person by gender, race, ethnicity, and socio-economic class.



EnjoliWoman said:


> Do you think these stereotypical views are in conflict with what modern relationship advice is telling us? Could some of that dissension be causing some difficulty in adjusting to new expectations? Please chime in.


When the rubber meets the road in a relationship, I think for most people our nature kicks in. Most women want a masculine man, most men want a feminine woman. Sure some stereotypes may kick in, such as your example of the high earning woman paying for the date. I'm not sure where the line is between stereotypes and nature on some things.


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## Bam85 (Feb 13, 2015)

Equality is bigger than that. It isn't about asking both genders to be identical. It's about not assuming that either of them is automatically weaker in some respect, due to their gender. 

My fiance and I are kind of exceptions, here, but we're not stereotypical of our gender. We are in terms of appearance...he's tall, buff and manly looking...I'm petite and girly looking. However, our personalities are the opposite. He's comfortable with his emotions and he's very soft-hearted. He's gentle with people's feelings and he's amazing with little kids. I'm kind of an emotional robot. I rarely cry and appealing to my emotions is no way to convince me of anything. I like kids but I'd rather be chasing them around the house or playing video games with them than reading to them. I could never date a typical guy who operates like me. We would be too alike. Equality is about balance whether in our personal relationships or on a general scale.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> In another 100 years I hope people are people regardless of gender and ethnicity, each with their own unique set of strengths and weaknesses; each seeking a partner who complements them and brings out the best in one another.
> 
> Do you think these stereotypical views are in conflict with what modern relationship advice is telling us? Could some of that dissension be causing some difficulty in adjusting to new expectations? Please chime in.


You’ve hit the nail smack on the head. We should seek out knowingly a partner that matches us and our views on what marriage should be. Relationship advice and the like usually comes from papers/magazines/blogs that are really trying to sell ads. What is cool is what is new and different and that it continually being documented as the latest advice. The problem is not that it is wrong but rather it is only right for particular demographics and personalities.

Where I live there are plenty of traditional marriages where the man is the provider and the woman a stay at home mom. But there is also a large mix of the newer style marriages where the woman is the provider and the man is a stay at home dad (with an admixture of between states). There are dual income no kids families and dual income with kids families. There are single parents and parents on second or more marriages. We have people from multiple cultures and races that marry and face many challenges. In my area and in many of the USA the views on marriage are diverse. There is no way any relationship guide could accurately cover all the possibilities in a size that would match todays attention span.

I think you have found the secret and it is indeed to seek out one who has similar views on marriage that you do. The basic problem is that we can fall in love with people that don’t share our views. Since many of the views are unspoken and taken as given we may not even realize it. And for some that seek relationship advice they may be setting themselves up for failure by attempting to change themselves to make the “suitable” for others. They may win a mate but fail at marriage.

So the real challenge in today’s environment is to, learn who you are and what you want out of marriage (and if marriage is what you want) and how to detect it in someone you may be interested in. It is not learning how to be the right balance of beta/alpha to win a woman. It is not about learning how to be the right balance of mom/wife/lover to win a man. It’s about being true to yourself and helping other achieve their goals that you love. Just because we love someone romantically doesn’t mean that a marriage will be successful. We must recognize the goals of people we are with and determine if they do indeed line up with our goals. If they don’t then we need to let them go and enable them to reach their goals.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Thor said:


> That is usually not the message being sent, especially from the radical side of things. The message has been since the 1960's that equal means identical. There is little room for admitting men are stronger physically, women are more nurturing, etc.


I absolutely agree. Too often equal is seen as the same. Equal but different seems to be a confusing concept. Even our example of comparing apples and oranges lends to that confusion. No, they aren't the same, yet they are still fruit, still belong in the fruit salad; therefore are equal but different.

Men and women can and should have the same value as human beings, employees, parents, spouses... Men can be wonderful stay at home Dads. So can women. Women can be successful breadwinners. So can men. Find someone who shares your personal priorities. But know yourself AND the other person very well. 

I just think the age of tradition, tho steeped in nature, should leave some room for modern thinking and modern thinking should leave some room for evolution and tradition.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Pooh Bear
I was thinking of the character, not the actor. In GOT, while he is among the most noble characters, he is in not presented as physically attractive and is shown with a rather off-putting personality. Its what I most like about GOT - the characters are not black and white - Tyrion can be noble AND still obnoxious. The hound can be violent and abusive - but within limits. 

Thorn - I guess the image I had when reading the Hobbit most definitely didn't include the dwarves as sex objects. Again I'm separating the character from the actor. (And Thorin does get an awful lot of people killed for gold). 




Pooh Bear said:


> Richard. This isn't fair. Peter Dinklage is a man not a mythical character. Even in GOT he is a man. The character is very aware of the prejudice against him. You should see Station Agent. He is fantastic in that. One of my favorite movies. He is married to an average size woman and they have a couple of kids.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Pooh Bear
> I was thinking of the character, not the actor. In GOT, while he is among the most noble characters, he is in not presented as physically attractive and is shown with a rather off-putting personality. Its what I most like about GOT - the characters are not black and white - Tyrion can be noble AND still obnoxious. The hound can be violent and abusive - but within limits.
> 
> Thorn - I guess the image I had when reading the Hobbit most definitely didn't include the dwarves as sex objects. Again I'm separating the character from the actor. (And Thorin does get an awful lot of people killed for gold).


Not to get into an analysis of GOT but really all of the characters are always in survival mode. No one is ever ok. After having my son, I don't know if I can watch it anymore actually. I had lots of problems with it before - the amount of violence and the way women are treated - but there's something else now. I kind of see the world in a new way since I have become a mother. I can't watch abuse of children anymore and I don't know if I can deal with the amount of abuse that is perpertrated against people in that show. It's pretty disturbing. I've always found the politics amongst the characters to be interesting. Tyrion is good at managing the politics. It has always been the good characters that kept me interested. Even though they keep dying. And also waiting for the ultra-bad characters to get theirs. Like Joffrey. But I don't know. We will see when it comes out again. Tyrion isn't dead yet so I might have to keep watching. Or at least have my husband keep me updated on stuff.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

meson said:


> *So the real challenge in today’s environment is to, learn who you are and what you want out of marriage (and if marriage is what you want) and how to detect it in someone you may be interested in. * It is not learning how to be the right balance of beta/alpha to win a woman. It is not about learning how to be the right balance of mom/wife/lover to win a man. * It’s about being true to yourself and helping other achieve their goals that you love. * Just because we love someone romantically doesn’t mean that a marriage will be successful. *We must recognize the goals of people we are with and determine if they do indeed line up with our goals. If they don’t then we need to let them go and enable them to reach their goals*.


 So true Meson... so True..

Being a more Traditionally minded woman in this modern world & preferring Traditionally minded men ...I would not even date someone who shrugged their nose at marriage and felt flippantly "that's just a piece of paper". .. someone like that would thoroughly not mesh with my values in life..or if they hung in bars.. GOODBYE!... and the list goes on.. 

They wouldn't want me either!! How important to be Self aware and just weed those out who will only cause us heart ache and strife down the road when our world views collide...

* I believe when we meet that someone we FIT with....just being with them inspires us to be better people... but it's still the person we foreseen us TO BE all along.. he or she just helps us get there and makes the ride that much MORE enjoyable..*


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Have you read the books? I like the series, but think the books are even better.

Not entirely OT - GOT presents a wide variety of character / personality types - its an interesting test of what people find attractive. 




Pooh Bear said:


> Not to get into an analysis of GOT but really all of the characters are always in survival mode. No one is ever ok. After having my son, I don't know if I can watch it anymore actually. I had lots of problems with it before - the amount of violence and the way women are treated - but there's something else now. I kind of see the world in a new way since I have become a mother. I can't watch abuse of children anymore and I don't know if I can deal with the amount of abuse that is perpertrated against people in that show. It's pretty disturbing. I've always found the politics amongst the characters to be interesting. Tyrion is good at managing the politics. It has always been the good characters that kept me interested. Even though they keep dying. And also waiting for the ultra-bad characters to get theirs. Like Joffrey. But I don't know. We will see when it comes out again. Tyrion isn't dead yet so I might have to keep watching. Or at least have my husband keep me updated on stuff.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Have you read the books? I like the series, but think the books are even better.
> 
> Not entirely OT - GOT presents a wide variety of character / personality types - its an interesting test of what people find attractive.


OT? I haven't read the books. My husband has. Books are generally better. It is true that none of the characters are perfectly good or perfectly bad. Except for Joffrey who is evil incarnate.  And I think that is what makes the characters interesting also.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

OT = off topic. sorry.
I don't find Daenarys attractive. She is physically beautiful, strong and smart (which I like), the there is something messianic about her that I would find off-putting. Or maybe she is the rare case of someone who as presented is out of my reach or better than me?

As I think about it, GOT is really a nice case for thinking about what is and is not attractive - there is such a wide range of characters.


And Cersei is even worse than Joffrey (imho).

Definitely read the books! Even more detail and more 3-d characters.

QUOTE=Pooh Bear;11874977]OT? I haven't read the books. My husband has. Books are generally better. It is true that none of the characters are perfectly good or perfectly bad. Except for Joffrey who is evil incarnate.  And I think that is what makes the characters interesting also.[/QUOTE]


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

*And Cersei is even worse than Joffrey (imho*)

You think so? Why? I always got a small satisfaction that Joffrey was scared to death of his grandfather. I don't think I've ever hated a character so much in my life.

The actor of Joffrey is probably the nicest guy in the world.  Cersei was on Sesame Street once along with Peter Dinklage. Funny.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Hmm, I realize that I've read the books and they are both different and further along than the TV series. I better not comment more.....

I'm of course talking about the characters, not the actors.




Pooh Bear said:


> *And Cersei is even worse than Joffrey (imho*)
> 
> You think so? Why? I always got a small satisfaction that Joffrey was scared to death of his grandfather. I don't think I've ever hated a character so much in my life.
> 
> The actor of Joffrey is probably the nicest guy in the world.  Cersei was on Sesame Street once along with Peter Dinklage. Funny.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Or maybe equality wasn't meant to be at all. Forcing a square peg into a round hole it's easy either. If we are intent to force women into places in society where they haven't been just for the sake of equality you are obviously asking for trouble. As you say, there are differences in the sexes and some are better at some things than others. Why push equality where it's doesn't belong.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Hmm, I realize that I've read the books and they are both different and further along than the TV series. I better not comment more.....
> 
> I'm of course talking about the characters, not the actors.


All right. It's kind of funny talking about GOT. I have kind of a love/hate relationship with it. Have you seen Masters of Sex? Love that show!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I always had a crush on Peter Falk as Colombo. Such strong but calm personality, whicj I find very attractive. 

And then I married Cojak. Go figure...


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

jb02157 said:


> Or maybe equality wasn't meant to be at all. Forcing a square peg into a round hole it's easy either. If we are intent to force women into places in society where they haven't been just for the sake of equality you are obviously asking for trouble. As you say, there are differences in the sexes and some are better at some things than others. Why push equality where it's doesn't belong.


I don't know where you live but there are more equal countries in the world and they seem to work pretty well. They do not have the social problems that the more unequal countries, like the US and the UK, have. And they are happy in those countries. Maybe inequality is the abnormal thing.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

jb02157 said:


> Or maybe equality wasn't meant to be at all. Forcing a square peg into a round hole it's easy either. If we are intent to force women into places in society where they haven't been just for the sake of equality you are obviously asking for trouble. As you say, there are differences in the sexes and some are better at some things than others. Why push equality where it's doesn't belong.


You'll probably get some flak for this post but I agree with the spirit of it.
I would just word it differently.



> Why push equality where it's doesn't belong.


Because it belongs everywhere so equality in general should be pushed.

What shouldn't be pushed is forcing women into rolls they traditionally have little interest in.

Historically women have little interest in careers that center around math and science.

I believe in the sake of equality we should break down the barriers that keep women from embracing these fields (which we are doing) but if and when a level playing field is achieved we still have a dearth of women in engineering positions we shouldn't force the issue by attempting to meet affirmative action quotas and such.

That type of policy just institutes inequity the other way.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

tacoma said:


> You'll probably get some flak for this post but I agree with the spirit of it.
> I would just word it differently.
> 
> 
> ...


Or they could love engineering and become the majority in those jobs and then companies will pay them less because they're women. Women have been discouraged in the math and sciences for a while. Did you know engineering schools didn't even allow women in? MIT's first woman graduated in 1973. There is more encouragement for girls to be involved in the math and sciences now but it takes time to change things. Maybe all things being equal women will not be interested in engineering. I have an aunt who's an engineer. There is a young woman at my church who is studying engineering. I don't know how many women you know who are interested in engineering but that is at least two.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Pooh Bear said:


> Or they could love engineering and become the majority in those jobs and then companies will pay them less because they're women.


I still have seen no evidence of this in the modern world.
Not in my profession or in the stats so often misrepresented in these discussions.

Women "generally" do not make less than men either hourly or salaried.
The discrepency found in yearly wages can be accounted for when one factors in womens choices of homemaking and child rearing and the fact that women tend to have more health issues at early ages requiring time off from employment during critical career building years.

I'd have no problem being proven wrong however.



> Women have been discouraged in the math and sciences for a while. Did you know engineering schools didn't even allow women in? MIT's first woman graduated in 1973.


This is why I chose engineering specifically for my example.



> There is more encouragement for girls to be involved in the math and sciences now but it takes time to change things.


They're actually pushing STEM curriculum very hard for younger girls now, at least in my area.
My daughter is benefiting from this shift in educational policy.
It will take time but it will happen much quicker if they continue with the aggressive policies in place now.



> Maybe all things being equal women will not be interested in engineering. I have an aunt who's an engineer. There is a young woman at my church who is studying engineering. I don't know how many women you know who are interested in engineering but that is at least two.


My own daughter is showing a great deal of interest in the field but she's young yet so who knows?

However, if female engineers never number to the point of equity with male engineers I don't think we need to push them into the area.
There are many fields open to men as well with no gender barriers that they seem to show little interest in and that's ok.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

*Women "generally" do not make less than men either hourly or salaried.
The discrepency found in yearly wages can be accounted for when one factors in womens choices of homemaking and child rearing and the fact that women tend to have more health issues at early ages requiring time off from employment during critical career building years.
*

Here are a couple examples.

Lilly Ledbetter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Walmart and Sex Discrimination | National Organization for Women

The other thing is companies will prevent people from talking about their salaries. Write your representative to get the Paycheck Fairness Act Passed so that people can talk about it. If companies are really above reproach then why the secrecy? 

People blame women for discrimination. Women have children that is the reason for the pay gap. Women are not aggressive enough that is the reason for the pay gap. They forget if women are too aggressive they are seen as a b*tch and people don't like them.

*My own daughter is showing a great deal of interest in the field but she's young yet so who knows?*

There you go. Maybe a budding engineer.

*However, if female engineers never number to the point of equity with male engineers I don't think we need to push them into the area.*

No one should be pushed into anything. But we need to eliminate the barriers.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Pooh Bear said:


> No one should be pushed into anything. But we need to eliminate the barriers.


Agreed.

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Sorry, no. 
Its not easy to get me interested in a TV series unless it has swords or spaceships. ( I was viewed as a nerd at a school famous for nerds).




Pooh Bear said:


> All right. It's kind of funny talking about GOT. I have kind of a love/hate relationship with it. Have you seen Masters of Sex? Love that show!


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
its very difficult to find a fair way to compare salaries for men and women in the same field. You need to correct for all sorts of effects - and some of those effects are due to discrimination.

I know a number of women with a strong interest, and successful careers in science and engineering. I also know some extremely capable women who were so insecure that they decided not to pursue careers in science even though they had the required talent. I wish I knew how to fix that sort of thing.

There are also some companies where women are treated badly and discouraged from entering science / engineering.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Have any posters ever chosen not to date someone because they were too smart / capable?


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Sorry, no.
> Its not easy to get me interested in a TV series unless it has swords or spaceships. ( I was viewed as a nerd at a school famous for nerds).


Lol.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> its very difficult to find a fair way to compare salaries for men and women in the same field. You need to correct for all sorts of effects - and some of those effects are due to discrimination.
> 
> I know a number of women with a strong interest, and successful careers in science and engineering. I also know some extremely capable women who were so insecure that they decided not to pursue careers in science even though they had the required talent. I wish I knew how to fix that sort of thing.
> ...


You like those apocolyptic movies? My husband loves those. And they're so depressing! Why is it that in the future people are always living in some desert shooting each other?


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

FrenchFry said:


> I got broken up with with this given as the reason, does that count?


Seriously? Was this person intimidated?


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

This is something I think about a ton- not so much for me and my DH or relationships in 2015. I am incredibly curious about what things will be like for my son, who is currently 4. I wonder what I should to do prepare him for this new century. It will be coming up on mid-century for him, once he really comes into his own as an adult.

One of the things I wonder about is whether or not he will have a choice to stay home or take paternity. I don't know if maternity leave will increase and/or if a true and well-used paternity leave will take hold in the US within the next 20-25 years. I hope so. Other parts of the world are way ahead of us in this realm.

I look at how much more involved men are with their kids in just one generation, since DH and I were kids. I love it- I love seeing guys carrying their little ones through out town in the summer; watching my male cousins jump right in with holding, carrying, diapering, feeding, and proudly post pics on FB of their new ones; seeing all the men with their wives and kids in the pool at our new YMCA, and often walking with their brood around the indoor track. Men and women pick up/drop off at daycare pretty equally.

I think there is a clear trend of men picking up many more childcare duties. I hope my son is also a highly involved father, if he has kids.

Child-bearing is trending towards an older start date. I wonder if he will have kids in his 30s/40s. That would be karma, since I made my own mom wait for 38 years for her first (and only) grandchild. 

I wonder if he will get married. Marriage is trending towards being a high middle/upper class phenomenon. I wonder what that means for him. I wonder if marriage will mostly be a religious ceremony in another 25 years and the majority will not get married. 

I wonder if the lifespan will continue to increase- I actually wonder if it will increase by a lot, as medicine improves- and if so, will he have a lot of partners? Do you stay with the same person if most people routinely live to 100 or more? Or will there be a trend to change partners more often, especially after milestones like the kids leaving, or post-menopause. After all, 60 is young if you expect to live another 40 good years.

I wonder what will be the most important skills for when he is an adult. If people live longer, they will work longer. Rote memory and brute strength become less valuable as so many things become computerized, electrified. Opportunities become more equal across genders (and hopefully financial classes as well.) 

Looking ahead only 8 years or so, I think about what he needs to learn early about interacting with girls. As a teen and as an adult, I hope there is a safe and reliable male birth control pill or method beyond condoms on the market. Frankly this is one area that I am surprised has not been well-addressed yet. Hopefully by, say, 2030 men will also have a better option than a condom to control their ability to have sex without a chance of pregnancy.

I doubt that basic human characteristics will change. There will still be explorers, warriors, homemakers, healers, artists, leaders, followers, etc. 

Our environment is changing though, and the power is re-balancing. I like to think that the biggest barriers have fallen- now it is accepted that women should be able to vote, get an education, own property, work, etc. The rest continues to ripple out. This is all new within the last 100 years, only a few generations. I definitely believe that a lot of strife is due to the pace of the changes. But I also think that there will be less strife, since the newer generations just accept these things, there is no fight about it. Although, who knows that new huge changes are ahead....

I am really stoked to see what happens....and it's scary to think about it at the same time.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

FrenchFry said:


> I mean...as far as blowing smoke up the ass break-ups go, it was pretty flattering but as I took it it was more code for "you will see through all of my BS and it's not fun for me."


Nice. So he did you a favor.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

tacoma said:


> Women "generally" do not make less than men either hourly or salaried.
> The discrepency found in yearly wages can be accounted for when one factors in womens choices of homemaking and child rearing and the fact that women tend to have more health issues at early ages requiring time off from employment during critical career building years.
> 
> .


No, the wage discrepancy is actually AFTER taking into consideration all these factors.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Have any posters ever chosen not to date someone because they were too smart / capable?


Yes

Not intelligent....I prefer intelligent women. But if they are the type they always needs to exibt control and can't rely on me as a man as I rely on them as a woman then that realtionship won't work


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Yes
> 
> Not intelligent....I prefer intelligent women. But if they are the type they always needs to exist control and can't rely on me as a man as I rely on them as a woman then that realtionship won't work


But that would go both ways. I do not want man who is control freak. I also want man who is at least as intelligent as me, or more. cannot go down.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> But that would go both ways. I do not want man who is control freak. I also want man who is at least as intelligent as me, or more. cannot go down.


I never indicated otherwise. men and women can and do bring different things to relationships...... Other than just different body parts . 

My opinion is some of what both genders brings is innate, some is societal influence, and some is set up by the people In the relationship.

Modern area realtionships is a blend of a lot of factors and can't really be defined as a set thing as it once was. Good thing or bad I don't know


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

WandaJ said:


> No, the wage discrepancy is actually AFTER taking into consideration all these factors.


Again, I have no problem being wrong but someone is going to have to show me the data.

The previous links were to articles that had no citation directing me to the actual data.

What data I have seen (admittedly awhile ago) seemed to point in the other direction, that coupled with personal experience in management positions hiring/firing/reviewing/ giving raises leads me to believe it's a myth.

Show me the data


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

tacoma said:


> Again, I have no problem being wrong but someone is going to have to show me the data.
> 
> The previous links were to articles that had no citation directing me to the actual data.
> 
> ...


Those were examples of actual women who were discriminated against. Many in the case of Walmart. You don't believe the statistics. What data do you want?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Ok, concerning the gender wage gap.

I quickly read this wiki on the topic looking for data.
This works for me as there are numerous citations directly leading to the actual studies.

Maleâ€“female income disparity in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Apparently the often cited 7/10 ratio has been moved to an 8/10 ratio in the most recent studies.
That is BEFORE controlling for life choices such as children/home making/ and so on.



> One economist testified to Congress that hundreds of studies have consistently found unexplained pay differences which potentially include discrimination.[3] Another criticized these studies as insufficiently controlled, and opined that men and women would have equal pay if they made the same choices and had the same experience, education, etc.


If you look at the actual metastudy concerning the first point there are no controls accounting for child rearing/home making etc..
Once these controls are accounted for the pay gap lavels out as cited in the second study.

There are discrepencies in the gender wage rates in certain geographical areas in the USA which is why my own personal experience doesn't see a gap.
My state is named as one which has nearly zero documented wag gap so that's why I don't see it in my professional life.



> The national female-to-male earnings ratio was 77.5%. In the South, five states (Maryland, North Carolina, Florida, Georgia, and Texas) and the District of Columbia had ratios higher than the national ratio, as did three states in the West (California, Arizona, and Colorado). Two states in the Northeast (Vermont and New York) had ratios higher than the national ratio. There were no states in the Midwest that had ratios higher than the national ratio. As a result, women’s earnings were closer to men’s in more states in the South and the West than in the Northeast and the Midwest.[7]


So I will concede there are some places where there is a wage gap that needs to be addressed BUT it is not nearly as widespread as we're often led to believe.

Onto what I consider evidence for my most important point.
That being, when you control for factors such as child rearing and home making there is no or little gap.



> According to an analysis of Census Bureau data released by Reach Advisors in 2008, single childless women between ages 22 and 30 were earning more than their male counterparts in most United States cities, with incomes that were 8% greater than males on average. This shift is driven by the growing ranks of women who attend colleges and move on to high-earning jobs.[8]


For women who choose not to raise families there is no wage gap.
In fact for these women their pay is actually 8% higher than their male counterparts.

So from this data alone one can see the wage gap is pretty much non-existent except in a few rural areas that are behind the times in almost every social consideration to begin with.
Yes, we should fix this and I believe we are but from looking at all this I really don't see a problem in this area.

In fact I believe feminism should use this data to crow about their victories in this area to gain support in other areas that still need addressing instead of continuing to harp on a problem that is all but non-existent.

Move on ladies, you've won this one, use your resources and voice to work on other areas that are still in need of fixing.

I will bring to light one area that is a bit disturbing but perhaps not a big deal if certain difficult controls could be used to get the most realistic data.



> Other studies have found direct evidence of discrimination - for example, fewer replies to identical resumes with female names[6] and more jobs went to women when orchestras moved to blind auditions.[4]


Women are still being passed by for actual jobs in preference to men.
This could be a problem or it could require studies with better controls before relying on the data.

I myself am guilty of this to a point.
I have passed over women in favor of men when hiring for no other reason than their gender.
Before you bite my head off I've also hired and re-hired many women.

The reason I've passed over women due to their gender is that my industry isn't generally suited for women.

It's hot, nasty, dirty, heavy, physically taxing work that demands excessive overtime and sacrifice which I've learned most women aren't willing to accept due to their home lives and physical abilities.

I've noticed recently though more women who do fit well into my industry regardless of these facts so this may be changing as well.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Pooh Bear said:


> Those were examples of actual women who were discriminated against. Many in the case of Walmart. You don't believe the statistics. What data do you want?


I do believe the statistics and have no doubt Walmart is screwing women over, Walmart is screwing everyone over.

It's what Walmart does.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Ok, concerning the gender wage gap.
> 
> I quickly read this wiki on the topic looking for data.
> This works for me as there are numerous citations directly leading to the actual studies.
> ...


Sooo....?

Nothing?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Sooo....?
> 
> Nothing?


Guess so...Oh well.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I know I have both experienced it personally and been a firsthand witness to it. I worked in a male dominated business and saw a female hired. Of all of the VPs, she earned the least as I was privvy to some of that information. They were about the same age, she did not take time out for motherhood (she adopted a toddler years before I met her but never stopped working) and had similarly prestigious educational background.

Apparently I'm not alone in this observation:

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/article...men-even-when-they-are-equally-qualified-mbas

I have certainly seen where there was equality and I saw that more than discrimination. And this is just anecdotal but it seems where there are wage gaps, the jobs and wages aren't "set". i.e. many jobs in lower and middle management have standardized job descriptions and pay scales. In these areas I notice little/no differentiation. But the higher up the scale one gets it seems there is more of a gap - the descriptions can be manipulated to vary more widely and experience can be subjective (less experience in years but more practical experience, etc.). 

But the fact is, we make choices. Choices all have impacts. Both genders make sacrifices that they hope will benefit their families. More men work overtime to advance their careers; more women leave promptly at the end of the day so they can make it to the daycare in time. They take maternity leave and sometimes stay at home for many years which detracts from the years of experience.

http://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap

So yes, if women did not allow family to impact careers, in most instances there would not be a wage gap. 

But in most threads, including who pays on a date, we're talking about the practical application of statistics.

For example, I went to a technical school and graduated. I married my husband at age 20. He already had a bachelor's degree and was in law school. I was considering enlisting in the military to give me a better salary and a chance to figure out what I wanted to do in anticipation of going back to school. Instead I married and worked while HE went to school. Although he never finished, I never went back to school because we needed two incomes as he started his own business(es - twice) and we needed one STABLE income during those years. Then I had a baby so I stayed home for two years before rejoining the workforce. 

These were my CHOICES. But these choices certainly put me behind the ball as it relates to career and salary. So now I'm divorced, no degree, less experience than a peer who did NOT stay at home with a child therefore even if my pay is relatively 'equal' to a male with the same education and experience, it's less than men my age - men who obtained a degree and never missed two years of work. 

Add to that that most (not all but most) men tend to date women who are younger than they are so now the men in my dating pool have:
a) more education than I;
b) more experience than I; 
c) are older therefore have more years of career building, wealth building and salary increases under their belt; 
yet they still want to split the check?

So there is still a gap but a very small one when you remove those factors, admittedly. But from a practical application standpoint, the average female and male salaries begin to diverge around age 30 and only continue to widen. 










So - are all nurses, male and female, with a BSN with the same years of experience who work in the same hospital likely both paid the same? Yup. But things get a little grey when you're talking about female CEOs or female EVPs, etc.

This is part of the whole 'equal but different' is an important discussion. Is a SAHM a bigger contribution to society than a working mom? Is the sacrifice in career worth her long-term financial security? Are jobs dominated by females that typically pay less just as important to society? If so why are they generally lower salaried? (Nurses, teachers, human resources, counselors) Would more men enter these fields if they paid better? Would more women becoming engineers, computer fields and leadership roles if they had more support at home? 

Lots of nuances to the topic. Personally I wouldn't have traded those two years at home with my girl for the two years of work experience - it's a sacrifice I was happy to make and I'm thankful I could. I do wish I hadn't supported my ex during his failed business ventures and going to school when he just dropped out in the end. I wish I had gone back to school. But this is what I'm working with and most men who share my interests, life goals, etc. earn 20-30K more than I do.

So - all things equal, wage gap? Not so much. Taking in all lifestyle choices? Being female and giving birth to children and nurturing them takes a toll on our earning potential and that is our reality. So maybe paid maternity leave and working from home and other types alternative working arrangements will really help women do it all.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Here's Why We Know The Gender Wage Gap Really Does Exist | ThinkProgress


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