# Honorbound's Journal



## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Hi folks,

I want to thank all of you first for the amazing insight and inspiration reading some of your threads has given me. Several of you have gone through the same thing I am going through now, and it is very helpful. At least I don't feel so alone...

I am in my early forties and have been married twice. The first ExW was a professional victim who slandered me to anyone that would listen throughout our marriage and even more after. It took a year or two, but I came to the hard fought realization that the only person I had any control over was myself. As long as I went to bed each night knowing that I had done everything I could to be honorable and do what was right, I was content and able to let all of the crap go... knowing, in the end, that I would be vindicated when the truth of things ever came out. Even if it didn't - it really wasn't about what everyone else thought, but about how I felt about myself. If anyone didn't like who I was, they could kiss my a$$. I had no idea at the time about the 180, but that is in effect what I had implemented (I wish I had known about this site then, if it even existed). There are too many details and betrayals to list that she had put me through, but suffice to say I tried for years to persevere through the lies and affairs simply because I had made a vow. I take them very seriously. I didn't want my kids to grow up in a broken home, but when she kicked me out of the house I had built myself - she took the decision from me. By the time I came into my own as a free single man, she was begging me to come back... but I was through.

I was determined to never let myself get in such a position again. No more pathological liars and cheaters. No more letting someone have so much of me that I felt like my insides were gone if/when they left.

Then I met StbXW2. Again. I had actually met, and danced, with her at a bar near my home when she was just 16 (Who expects a 16 year old in a bar?). It was karaoke night and I was entranced by her singing (I'm a sucker for a woman that can sing). When she told me her age while we were dancing, I laughed. I thought she was kidding (she looked 18 or 19 and, once again, why was a 16 year old in a bar?). It turns out she wasn't, and I vacated as quickly and with as much dignity as a 29 year old could muster. She had told me while we were dancing that she had heard me sing the week before (at a different bar!) and I could tell she was infatuated with me. I let her down kindly and went on to pursue my single life for the next four years.

Although, I admit I appeared to be a bit of a man-ho throughout those single years, I really wasn't. I loved the "hunt" much more than the conquest. If it was too easy, I lost interest immediately. I've never been interested in one-night stands or thoughtlessly dishonoring some woman I knew was incompatible with me in some way. I just liked the game. It fed my ego enough to overcome the sense of self-consciousness and self-doubt I have dealt with since I was a child (a different story) and, even better, I was safe from being hurt again. I thought I was happy. I played guitar in a rock band. I had more than my share of attention from beautiful women. I made plenty of money. I could go out and do whatever I wanted. I thought I would stay that way forever.

I did run into the StbxW2 a few more times over those years and when she turned 18 we became pretty good friends. Strictly platonic friends. I wasn't interested in romance from someone that much younger than I was... I'd had more than enough immaturity in my marriage. For her part, I was someone safe she could talk to about anything and who would intimidate any unwanted boyfriends or suitors whenever she needed me to. I didn't mind. I've done the same thing for complete strangers getting unwanted advances from drunks in a bar. I admit to having White Knight Syndrome pretty badly. It comes from reading too much, I reckon, and holding honor as something sacrosanct and inviolate. No one can take it from you, but once you give it away you can never truly get it back. The problem is I expect everyone else to have the same view, and I tend to get irate when they don't. I've been in countless fights over the years.

I'm guessing she picked up on this during that time.

I didn't see her again for two years, although she would call out of the blue occasionally when she needed someone to talk to (like when she miscarried her baby while with her then-fiance). I always made an effort to make her laugh and smile and feel better about herself.

I ran into her again one night, coincidentally at the place I had met her and danced the first time. She was just about to turn 21 and, when she saw me, she threw herself into my arms - much to the dismay of the obsessive drunk that had been hitting on her all night. I ended up taking him outside for a chat, and then came back in and talked to her and shot pool for hours before giving her a ride back to her place. Before I even made it home my cell was ringing and we ended up talking all night. She was saying everything I had longed to hear from a woman, but had believed was no longer to be found. Honor, Commitment, treat others as you would be treated, never giving up, never selling out, growing old together, being one of those couples you see still smiling and holding hands after 50 years of marriage, fate that I had happened into that particular place on that night. I admit it, I was lost at that point.

We dated for a year and then got married.

I thought everything was great, at first, but then around a year into the marriage, I caught her in an EA with an ex-boyfriend of hers and another one with some dork she had never actually seen while playing an MMO (we both enjoyed gaming together). Being super-sensitive to such things after what I had been through, I put her out. She continually called and pleaded with me that she was sorry and would never do it again if I let her come home. I broke down and let her a few days later, but made her swear on everything she found holy that she would never do that to me again. She did. Repeatedly. I accepted her sincerity and forgot about the incident.

I put her through school for two years, but she never used that to get a job. I pushed her for years to get out and find work, but she never would. She never did much around the house either (really messy woman). Somehow I ignored all of this and continued to love her and support her until last year. Suddenly the company I had worked for as an IT Administrator for ten years was struggling. A competitor had opened up literally across the street and there wasn't enough business to go around. The owners tried several different strategies to increase business, but we all knew it was ultimately doomed. The competitor could afford to undercut anything we tried. At that time I agreed to a pay cut which would make our life much more of a struggle without her working. She finally got a job with a crappy pizza chain making barely above minimum wage. It was the only place she applied. It is also the only place she had ever worked - for a year or two when she was a teen. I couldn't understand why she was so obsessed with wanting to work there. She has many talents and, it shockingly turns out, is a great worker. Never misses a day. Always available to cover for someone else, etc. This got us by until my employers went out of business in April of this year. Even then, with her salary and my unemployment we were staying above water fairly easily. We even managed a short vacation at the end of this summer. Throughout everything, we have always been best friends. Always doing everything together, laughing, and generally just happy.

I guess something changed in the last month or two. She got a call the day before we were to come back from vacation that a family member had died. Her work kept her from going to the funeral, since she had just taken off for our vacation. She was upset that she didn't cry about it. I tried to comfort her as best I could, but was really at a loss as to what to do or say. Eventually she seemed to put it behind her and everything returned to how we were. Struggling a little financially, but generally happy and laughing like we always did. I was saving and studying for my certifications to increase my chances of landing another good job (I never needed them before, I was doing the work and my employers didn't require a piece of paper to tell them I knew what I knew), and she was steadily getting promoted at her work. I made every effort to stay upbeat, do all the house chores, cook for her, and anything else I could think of to make myself useful around the house while searching for work. I had no idea that she was going to get up on November 6th and tell me she was leaving me. When I asked why, she gave me the "It's not you, it's me" speech as well as the "I don't love you anymore" AND the "I just feel trapped" ones. She claimed that, since her family member had died, she just doesn't feel _anything_ for anyone other than anger. I immediately suspected she was in another EA with someone from her work. Most of the employees there are even younger than she is, and she did have a bad habit of coming home and gushing about various males that she worked with. I put up with as much of that as I could before telling her that no man wants to hear their significant other going on and on about another man.

She swore repeatedly that she is not having an affair, but that she wants a divorce. She claims she "tried", but just couldn't stay in our marriage. I told her that going to bed and waking up each morning expecting something different without actually doing anything different, or telling anyone, is more the definition of 'insanity' than it is 'trying'. But she remained adamant that she was leaving to stay with one of her new girlfriends from work and was unwilling to even consider working on our (9 year next month) marriage.

Despite my hard won lessons from my first marriage, I was destroyed. I couldn't understand how someone who just a couple of months before had posted to all of her family and friends how much she loved me - because I could make her laugh even when she didn't want to - could just go against everything she had ever professed to believe in and leave the one person who had loved and supported her for so many years.
I got angry, I got scared, I laid my heart out to her in great detail hoping she would reconsider only to have her act totally indifferent to the pain she had caused.

She is still acting that way. She says she still "cares" about me, but doesn't want to be married anymore. She wants to go back to just being friends like we were. To my eternal shame, I actually considered it. She has been my best friend for so long, that her absence is a hole I cannot fill. I even wrote to my MIL when I didn't hear from my StbxW for a couple of days after she left and I was sick with worry. I didn't know if she was okay, or not. I asked my MIL if her daughter was ok, and I ended telling her I thought she was having an affair. She claims that she is not. That she just got married so young that she needs some time to figure herself out and that this was 'normal'. I should just give her some space. (BTW, the MIL is the last person on the planet anyone should get relationship advice from - several failed marriages, kids with different ones, and wasn't considered a fit custodian for any of them)

I find I am unable to do that. Despite what she says, when I looked up the "Top Ten Excuses that Cheaters Use" I found that she used four of them on me. I don't see anything normal about destroying every bit of honor you have along with a large chunk of your soul. I pointed out to her that I had been to that particular rodeo before, and I was fully aware what those brown steaming piles were. Any stupid 'in-love' feeling she was experiencing right now with some PoSOM was doomed to die an agonizing death in a month or three, and then she'd realize that the grass over there didn't look near as good as she thought. I've seen it several times before. She admitted that she might be making a mistake, but was willing to live with the consequences. She also insisted, once again, that she was not having an affair and was not in love with anyone else. She went on to say she wasn't interested in anyone - period. She just didn't feel anything for anyone anymore.

My problem with that is - why didn't she tell me, or anyone else, about this and try to get help? Why destroy a 10 year relationship over something that obviously needs to be fixed somehow? Even if it is not for me? What have I ever done to her to deserve this?

I'm trying to go NC, but it is very hard. I just don't understand. She wants an uncontested divorce and doesn't want anything from me. She's even offered to pay me a small amount of alimony over the next three years (since I discovered, the day after she left, that the government will actually pay for me to go back to school - something I've wanted to do for years but always had too much work/responsibility to do). We had always said that if she ever started making enough for us to get by, it would be my turn to go back to school. I didn't take my ACT until I was 24 and I made a 29 on it, I could probably go to any school I wanted, but I always found it impossible to work the 60-80 hours I normally worked, raise three kids, and go to school at the same time. Now that my kids are grown and she has left, I find that for the first time in twenty-something years I am only responsible for myself - no one else. If she hadn't left, I'd probably never have found out about the program. I told her, if she could do that, it would at least salve my pride a bit - so that I wouldn't feel like I was just used as a paycheck for 8+years, but it still hurts that she could discard me so easily.

I have the papers drawn up, but I haven't filed yet. I know I can't keep her here if she doesn't want to be here, but I find my confidence is shot and I still miss the woman she used to be.

It will be two weeks tomorrow and I seem to be on the full roller coaster of the stages of grief. My resolve of NC wavers and fails occasionally. Yesterday I took a test for that gov't program and scored higher than the ladies there had ever seen (I missed one answer). I screwed up and texted her the results only to get a single "Congrats" back. I knew, thanks to reading ReGroup's and Lost's threads, I shouldn't have done anything but act like I was happy to be single again, but the truth is I am not.

Today I had to text her that she needs to get a PO Box - since she won't give me the address where she is staying - so that I can put an address on the D papers. She responded cordially that she would either today or sometime this week. If she had left it at that I would have been fine and just not responded... but she didn't leave it at that. She added, "having a rough week" and I hit the ceiling.

SHE'S having a rough week?!? WTH??

I unloaded about how this is what she wanted, and how I couldn't believe she was trying to justify her actions to others when there is no excuse for what she has done. I kept unloading from there. All I kept getting was, "I don't want to argue with you about this". She does the 180 way better than I do apparently... it's easy when you really don't care, I reckon.

I really need to get back there quickly. I can't stand this pain and rejection.

I'm sorry about the long story, but I figure if anyone needs a 2x4 or two to the skull, it's probably me. I can use whatever advice y'all are willing to give.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Also, in the interest of full disclosure. Her justification for those EA's after the first year were because I was angry all the time. I pointed out I was grouchy frequently due to a medical condition that only got correctly diagnosed last year. I only got angry when I found out about the EA's. Neither of which is justification for cheating, since I don't think there is any. Other than that our life was pretty happy. I think she's just trying to find bad points with me or our marriage to justify her current actions, and is having trouble doing so. I did treat her very well. I just don't understand how anyone can do this to someone that loves them...


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

I thought I was over most of the sadness, but was reminded this morning that I am not...

Our dog, who really loved her ( a little more than he does, me to be honest), must have forgotten that she was gone. When he didn't follow me into the living room when I woke this morning, I went back to look for him. He was up on the bed with his head on his paws staring forlornly at the place she used to sleep. I broke down a bit.

For years, when I would get up to go to work he would take my spot in the bed and lay down next to her until she woke up a few hours later. He looked so sad...

He hasn't done that since the first morning she was gone...


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Well, I've spent the last couple of hours cleaning the kitchen, and my emotions have changed from sadness to "What the h*ll was I thinking?!". I found at least a years worth of garbage that she just left lying here and there... Good Lord, the trash can was RIGHT THERE! Throw your crap away! It's going to take me weeks to clean this house completely and I don't understand how someone can just stew in their own filth... or how I managed to not see/ignore it for so long. I guess love really is blind to the others' faults. I'm guessing that should have been a sign that she just plain old didn't care about me, us, or - ultimately - herself... and really hasn't from the beginning.

I've taken pics, just in case... but I feel so stupid sometimes for ever believing she really loved me...


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Well, I've spent the last couple of hours cleaning the kitchen, and my emotions have changed from sadness to "What the h*ll was I thinking?!". I found at least a years worth of garbage that she just left lying here and there... Good Lord, the trash can was RIGHT THERE! Throw your crap away! It's going to take me weeks to clean this house completely and I don't understand how someone can just stew in their own filth... or how I managed to not see/ignore it for so long. I guess love really is blind to the others' faults. I'm guessing that should have been a sign that she just plain old didn't care about me, us, or - ultimately - herself... and really hasn't from the beginning.
> 
> I've taken pics, just in case... but I feel so stupid sometimes for ever believing she really loved me...


I've been reading your thread - and maybe she thought she loved you, but doesn't truly know what love is? I believe this to be the case with my STBXW.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Who knows? I know she doesn't know that real love (Mature Love) requires work to keep going. You're not going to feel it every minute of every day, but you know deep inside that your are much better with that person than you are without. I got her heavily into reading over the years, and I suspect that she is hung up on Romantic Love as being the only type. We've all had that at one time or another, most folks realize that it is a simple chemical reaction in the brain that doesn't last very long and means, ultimately, absolutely nothing.

...stupid vampire books. Vampires suck.


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## Gonnabealright (Oct 24, 2013)

Those EA's you speak of are a big deal. If she was sharing intimate details of your and her problems with another man shes basically inviting another man in to fix them. That's what we do, we fix things. Sorry your hear. Do you have any proof of the EA's? States have different laws regarding divorce. I don't know if you'll need any. I don't know much about it either. The state I live in doesn't require any of it for divorce, just irreconsilable differences.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

The EA's I am sure of were years ago. I have no idea what she is doing now, but everything points to an affair - even though she strenuously denies it. She is completely unfazed by leaving a 10+ year relationship. That alone points towards an affair. The only reason someone wouldn't mourn a (really good for the most part) relationship like that is if they a) Are in the throes of the 'happy phase' of an affair or b) have suddenly become a sociopath. Even people in bad relationships generally mourn the loss of 'what could have been'.

Either way, the result is the same. I have to either assume she is in an affair and lying about it, or that I might be in danger of getting stabbed in my sleep one night by a sociopath.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

That has been the most maddening part. Her being completely happy with leaving and not even trying to make things work. She tells me it was nothing I did, but that just makes it worse for me. If it was nothing I did, how can I ever hope to not have this happen to me again some day?

An affair is the only conclusion that anybody I have talked to has come to. Her having to go back 7-8 years (when talking to me the other day) to come up with a bad time in our relationship and try to shift the blame to me for her cheating back then just cemented in my mind that she is lying to me, her family, and our friends. She is just trying to justify an action that cannot be justified. She doesn't want the stigma of people thinking she is a bad person.

Either that, or she was just using me all along to take care of her... instead of us being the team I thought we were. I admit, I was hoping someone on here would tell me <insert perfectly reasonable explanation of why the wife might have left>, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Whatever it is, it hurts like all get out and has left me floundering. Far from the man I used to be.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

With an uncontested divorce here, all you need are 'Irreconcilable Differences'. Which could be anything - "We grew apart, I didn't like her new hairdo, we had different goals in life, He farts in his sleep". Anything.


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## CrazyBeautiful1 (Oct 21, 2013)

To be honest, I doubt anyone can give you the reason.. Even your STBXW. Sometimes, there are no "real" reasons.

You can speculate all day, and have a thousand people give you different opinions. But would you ever know for sure? No. It does sound like you were very convenient for her, not just by supporting her and being there for her, but for taking care of her.. Just like you said. Honestly, she sounds immature. As for having another affair, it's a definite possibility..

All you can do is know that you did everything you could for her, by taking care of her, encouraging her, loving and forgiving her. If she doesn't recognize or appreciate that, you're better off without her.. And you've been through this before, so you know that you can survive it.

So a perfectly good reason why she left...? She doesn't deserve you, and there is someone out there that is worthy of all that you bring to a marriage. Cheesy, I know  but so very true!

And hey! I love vampire books! Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

CrazyBeautiful1 said:


> And hey! I love vampire books! Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks CrazyBeautiful, I do appreciate your thoughts. The problem is, even though I have been through this before, my 'mind' knows exactly what to do and how I should feel, but my stupid-a$$ heart won't agree. Like LongWalk said in another thread, it would be nice if we could just turn that off whenever we wanted. Apparently she _has_ somehow - even though just the night before she left we were laughing and messing with each other and we both said, "Good night. I love you" when we went to bed. I guess I will never be able to understand duplicitous people and what drives them to do what they do. Doesn't stop it from hurting.

Also... vampires still suck (heh... heh... heh)


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## CrazyBeautiful1 (Oct 21, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Thank CrazyBeautiful, I do appreciate your thoughts. The problem is, even though I have been through this before, my 'mind' knows exactly what to do and how I should feel, but my stupid-a$$ heart won't agree. Like LongWalk said in another thread, it would be nice if we could just turn that off whenever we wanted. Apparently she _has_ somehow - even though just the night before she left we were laughing and messing with each other and we both said, "Good night. I love you" when we went to bed. I guess I will never be able to understand duplicitous people and what drives them to do what they do. Doesn't stop it from hurting.
> 
> Also... vampires still suck (heh... heh... heh)


I agree, sometimes it would be great to turn the heart off! I was told to listen to my head when my H first brought up separating, and I think after a while, I finally found a balance between my head and my heart! Even though it seems as if she has turned her off, I highly doubt it. I've learned that there are some people (my H included) that can simply ignore their hearts. Even though it hurts them, they have some super-human ability to ignore that pain, and act as if it isn't there. From my experience, it just comes back to hurt them that much more later on.. Usually when the rest of us are finally getting over the pain.

I do believe that your STBXW is simply immature.. And honestly think that she may come around at some point.. But what happens at the point is all up to you.

I don't think you should blame the vampires though, it's not their fault they are mesmerizing and capable of true romance! Hahaha 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

CrazyBeautiful1 said:


> I agree, sometimes it would be great to turn the heart off! I was told to listen to my head when my H first brought up separating, and I think after a while, I finally found a balance between my head and my heart! Even though it seems as if she has turned her off, I highly doubt it. I've learned that there are some people (my H included) that can simply ignore their hearts. Even though it hurts them, they have some super-human ability to ignore that pain, and act as if it isn't there. From my experience, it just comes back to hurt them that much more later on.. Usually when the rest of us are finally getting over the pain.
> 
> I do believe that your STBXW is simply immature.. And honestly think that she may come around at some point.. But what happens at the point is all up to you.
> 
> ...


Some people can just turn off emotions, I wish I were one of them. My STBXW is too seeming all happy and unfazed Honorbound, I also think mine was engaged in some form of affair before leaving. Like you, all the signs point, but she swears blind that's not the case.

Don't worry though, the pain will catch up with her one day. It could be 6 months from now, it could be 6 years. But it WILL happen.

And CB1, vampire's are terrible. I used to love vampires until Twilight turned them in to a sparkly joke .


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

WantWifeBack said:


> Some people can just turn off emotions, I wish I were one of them. My STBXW is too seeming all happy and unfazed Honorbound, I also think mine was engaged in some form of affair before leaving. Like you, all the signs point, but she swears blind that's not the case.
> 
> Don't worry though, the pain will catch up with her one day. It could be 6 months from now, it could be 6 years. But it WILL happen.
> 
> And CB1, vampire's are terrible. I used to love vampires until Twilight turned them in to a sparkly joke .


I agree. It always does. It is just maddening to know that they are not only hurting the ones that love them, but themselves too... and nothing you do or say will dissuade them from their course of self-destruction/karmic retribution. Usually, by the time they realize their error (some never will - it is _always_ someone else's fault) it is far too late to fix what they have broken.

The main problem I have with the plethora of vampire stories (and the Romance genre in general) is that it promotes that giddy feeling of 'romantic love' as the ideal. It makes people think that if that 'feeling' is no longer there, then the relationship must be over. Thus they go from relationship to relationship seeking that 'feeling' over and over again. They have no idea that there is something even better than that, if they just held on and worked at it. That romantic love feeling is just an evolutionary trick to ensure procreation of the species, and generally only lasts long enough for that to occur. The mature love (or true love) of a partner that has stuck with you through thick and thin for decades - and that you have complete and total faith in - is by far the one most to be desired. Yet rarely do any of those stories promote that - it is nowhere near as exciting.

Plus, 'sparkly vampires'. Yeah... /shudder


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

HB,

Your wife neither valued or respected the marriage. That is the reason you find yourself where you are.

Why she didn't is a combination of several obvious factors. The lack of maturity spoken of in other posts. The learned behavior from her "mother". Past relationships, etc, etc.

What would change if you found out she was having an affair?


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Ceegee said:


> HB,
> 
> Your wife neither valued or respected the marriage. That is the reason you find yourself where you are.
> 
> ...


Not a thing. The end result is exactly the same. I told her as much even before she left.


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## CrazyBeautiful1 (Oct 21, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> I agree. It always does. It is just maddening to know that they are not only hurting the ones that love them, but themselves too... and nothing you do or say will dissuade them from their course of self-destruction/karmic retribution. Usually, by the time they realize their error (some never will - it is _always_ someone else's fault) it is far too late to fix what they have broken.
> 
> The main problem I have with the plethora of vampire stories (and the Romance genre in general) is that it promotes that giddy feeling of 'romantic love' as the ideal. It makes people think that if that 'feeling' is no longer there, then the relationship must be over. Thus they go from relationship to relationship seeking that 'feeling' over and over again. They have no idea that there is something even better than that, if they just held on and worked at it. That romantic love feeling is just an evolutionary trick to ensure procreation of the species, and generally only lasts long enough for that to occur. The mature love (or true love) of a partner that has stuck with you through thick and thin for decades - and that you have complete and total faith in - is by far the one most to be desired. Yet rarely do any of those stories promote that - it is nowhere near as exciting.
> 
> Plus, 'sparkly vampires'. Yeah... /shudder


I agree. I know several people who are constantly searching for that "feeling". Giving up something real in search of that giddy, butterfly kind of feeling makes me sick. I would much rather have the comfort of a real love that has been tested over time.. And I'll admit, every once in a while I miss those butterflies and that excitement.. But I just do something in my M that brings it back, rather than seeking it somewhere else.

It's too bad that some people can't wake up and realize that it'll never last, that sappy romantic feeling. Pssh, maybe I'm just different, but most days I prefer practical over romantic.

And as for you two, HB and WWB. I'm offended by your comments about sparkly vampires lol I love Twilight! And I'll admit it, I get warm fuzzy feelings over those sparkly vampires and their charm 

Aside from the vampire comments, you two seem awesome. I'm sorry you both are going through such tough situations.. But both have a sense of humor, which is good 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Well, I went out last night for a couple of drinks and an attempt to shoot pool. It is too hard staying in the house at night sometimes.

I had eye surgery a few years ago that did not go well, and I ended up not only mostly blind in that eye, but it now no longer 'tracks' with my good eye unless I consciously force it. I usually wear an eye patch, but I am really self-conscious about that as well.

It was the first time I have played pool since I lost my depth perception. I was pretty awful compared to how good I used to be. Once upon a time, I could probably have made a living playing... not anymore. I did win when I played against someone else, after playing 3-4 games by myself just to get the hang of playing with one eye. I just got lucky beating him, so I let him keep the table. I did play enough to know I _can_ get good again, just going to take some adjustment and learning how to play again.

On the way out two women told me the eye patch was "sexy" and told me to come back again. I just showed them the dimples and said, "Thanks". I was still grinning a bit walking out the door. Even though I wasn't interested in anyone there, that did make me feel a bit better.

I'm still vacillating through emotions, but I'm determined to get back to where I was. Still working out every day and doing whatever I can to stay busy. I should be studying for my exam, but I keep reading the same paragraph over and over and still couldn't tell you what it says. I'm going to try and buckle down this weekend and get the studying done - I don't have much left to do anyway. I don't like being down on myself and so self-conscious - I know I shouldn't. It isn't productive, yet I still do it off and on - it is hard not to.

Thanks CB, CeeGee, and WWB, y'all have been a big help. Even though I have gone through this once before, it is still hard sometimes.


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## CrazyBeautiful1 (Oct 21, 2013)

So glad to hear that you went out and had a good time!! It's always nice to get a little attention, especially when your ego could use a boost 

Just like you said your pool game can get better again with a little adjustment, so will your life. Sure, you've been through this before.. But I know that doesn't make it any better or easier the second time around. But knowing that you made it through once, with a bit of adjustment, you'll make it through again 

Good luck with your studying, I've been slacking a bit on mine as well and have a paper to write by this weekend. Sounds like you needed a little excitement last night, and now you can settle in and get some work done.. A nice reward..? Going out to shoot some pool after your exam 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Well, I went out last night for a couple of drinks and an attempt to shoot pool. It is too hard staying in the house at night sometimes.
> 
> I had eye surgery a few years ago that did not go well, and I ended up not only mostly blind in that eye, but it now no longer 'tracks' with my good eye unless I consciously force it. I usually wear an eye patch, but I am really self-conscious about that as well.
> 
> ...


It's good to go out and get a little ego boost, I did something similar shortly after my W left and it helped me no end. I'm quietly hoping for an ego boost this weekend too.

I had eye surgery when I was young, and whilst the op went well and you wouldn't know by looking at me, my vision is extremely limited in my left eye, I always play pool with one eye closed, and I'm not too bad at it either. I seem to play better when a little drunk . If you enjoy it, keep at it! 

It's good that you're still working out, and that you are focused on getting through this. Your concentration for your studies will improve in good time, it just takes a while. For me when my W left, I couldn't concentrate at work for about 6 weeks, and I'm still really far behind because of it!

Just because you've been through this once, it doesn't make it any easier. It's always difficult losing someone you love, and it always will be sadly. But, on the flip side, it shows that you truly loved her and cared about her, and that as a person you are capable of showing that kind of love. That's good stuff .


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## CrazyBeautiful1 (Oct 21, 2013)

HB,

How are you doing? I think your journal deserves an update! Especially after reading about your weekend :smthumbup:


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

CrazyBeautiful1 said:


> HB,
> 
> How are you doing? I think your journal deserves an update! Especially after reading about your weekend :smthumbup:


I'm doing better. I've come to the realization that it was nothing I _did_ that caused this and that if she doesn't want me, that is her problem. I know who and what I am - and I am happy with that. I've run across quite a few others in the last few days that seem to be tickled with who I am too. :smthumbup:. 

My sense of honor won't allow me to do anything about that until the gavel hits the wood, but it is nice to know I shouldn't have been so down on myself. It is just hard when you get the "I'm not in love with you anymore" speech. Makes you question yourself and wonder if something is wrong with you. Especially when it comes out of the blue.

I've been polite and honorable with the STBXW since she came by yesterday (after not talking to her at all for a week). She stayed for a few hours and we talked and even laughed together a few times. It was kind of bittersweet for me, but I've given up asking "Why?". It doesn't matter. I don't think she knows herself. Her emotions aren't what they should be for someone leaving a 10+ year relationship. She's not in the "happy fog" of an affair (I checked her PC and phone after she left... nothing.... and she swears it is not that. Damn if I don't believe her now - having seen the real deal first hand more than once), but she's not upset about losing everything we had either. She knows I don't have a problem letting her go and being on my own. She seems to understand that something is off with her.... but that same 'off-ness' makes her not be overly concerned with it. I admit _that_ does make me sad. For her instead of myself.

I wish her the best, but I have a feeling that everything I went through the last few weeks is going to just fall on her at some point out of the blue (like it did me) and it won't be pretty. It pretty much _has_ too unless she has somehow become an emotionless sociopath (highly doubtful). It really does seem like her uncle's death has triggered some type of emotional shutdown. I'm dreading the fallout when it does, but I have to move on myself or go insane. I made my case weeks ago that I loved her more than anything, but I would be unable to go back after this. She said she understood. I am sure she does ,on an intellectual level, but not on an _emotional_ one - since she doesn't seem to be feeling any at the moment. When/if it does hit her on an emotional level....? Your guess is as good as mine what will happen then. 

I have no experience with this. Woman cheating on me? Yes. Woman being a self-centered professional victim using lies to get people to feel sorry for her? Yes. Woman just out for a good time and nothing else? Yes. This after 10 years of a predominantly great relationship? Not a clue.

She doesn't want anything from me, so I have no problem being nice to her. She's not after anything other than what she originally came with. I _made_ her take some of the things I bought for her (guitar, PC, gaming stuff) over the years and will likely give her some more things that she'll need for her own place that she hasn't thought of yet. It really is puzzling and sad all mixed together.

All I can do is take her at her word that she just 'fell out of love' with me over the last couple of months and give her the divorce. Hopefully she'll be happy. I'm sure I will be one day.

I'll be okay.

Not sure about her, but there's nothing I can do about it that won't make things worse...


On a side note, I had one of the pretty women I met last week contact me today. We talked for hours. When I explained that I wasn't looking for any dates yet and about why I insist on staying true to my vows until the D was final she sent this text: _"LOL! you best watch your sexy a$$ though - by the time you actually will date you will have a line a mile long and not enough days in the week. Lmao!"_

Talk about a self-esteem booster... :rofl:


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> I'm doing better. I've come to the realization that it was nothing I _did_ that caused this and that if she doesn't want me, that is her problem. I know who and what I am - and I am happy with that. I've run across quite a few others in the last few days that seem to be tickled with who I am too. :smthumbup:.
> 
> My sense of honor won't allow me to do anything about that until the gavel hits the wood, but it is nice to know I shouldn't have been so down on myself. It is just hard when you get the "I'm not in love with you anymore" speech. Makes you question yourself and wonder if something is wrong with you. Especially when it comes out of the blue.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you're doing so much better HB  It's really good to see.

I can guarantee you that one day, your STBXW will feel the emotional weight of her decision, as will mine. It's hard to think that the person you once cared about most in the world will have to go through what we've been through, but it's unavoidable and there's nothing we can do about it now. More to the point, it's not our job to do anything about it any longer.

Haha, that text certainly would be a nice self-esteem booster, I think I need to start handing my number out. I think I'll just walk in to a club with 500 business cards and throw them in the air, could be an interesting social experiment .


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

WantWifeBack said:


> Haha, that text certainly would be a nice self-esteem booster, I think I need to start handing my number out. I think I'll just walk in to a club with 500 business cards and throw them in the air, could be an interesting social experiment .


Hahaha. I would highly recommend NOT doing that! That would be even worse than a jilted ex writing your number on the wall of every petrol station _men's_ room in a 200K radius - along with the words "For a good time call - WWB". Guaranteed you'll have every freak in the place calling you and handing those out to people even freakier than they are - half of them will be men!

:moon: :whip:


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Hahaha. I would highly recommend NOT doing that! That would be even worse than a jilted ex writing your number on the wall of every petrol station _men's_ room in a 200K radius - along with the words "For a good time call - WWB". Guaranteed you'll have every freak in the place calling you and handing those out to people even freakier than they are - half of them will be men!
> 
> :moon: :whip:


I think I'll take your recommendation 

But.... if only half of them are men, the other half would be women .


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

WantWifeBack said:


> I think I'll take your recommendation
> 
> But.... if only half of them are men, the other half would be women .


True... crazy, desperate, glue your genitals to your leg women. :smthumbup:


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> True... crazy, desperate, glue your genitals to your leg women. :smthumbup:


Just my type  haha.

But seriously, no.

I'm just going to go out and have some fun .


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## CrazyBeautiful1 (Oct 21, 2013)

WantWifeBack said:


> I can guarantee you that one day, your STBXW will feel the emotional weight of her decision, as will mine. It's hard to think that the person you once cared about most in the world will have to go through what we've been through, but it's unavoidable and there's nothing we can do about it now. More to the point, it's not our job to do anything about it any longer.


:iagree:


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## CrazyBeautiful1 (Oct 21, 2013)

HB,

The person that sent that text sounds AWESOME! :smthumbup:

So glad that you are going out and having a good time. I know it must have been hard on you to spend that time with your STBXW and actually seem to "have a good time". 

I am a true believer that sometimes, even when something seems bad and it hurts like h*ll, this moment comes along and tells us that this is actually what is best for us. By spending time together, and getting along, this may have been your sign that things are going to be ok, for you anyway..

Your STBXW will realize one of these days that she hasn't actually "dealt" with any of the emotions she should be dealing with. It will hit her like a ton of bricks. And most likely, you will already be well on your way to a happier future


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

CrazyBeautiful1 said:


> HB,
> 
> The person that sent that text sounds AWESOME! :smthumbup:
> 
> ...


My turn to agree. :iagree:


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

She came by again today. She knows something is wrong, but throws herself into work and everything else to avoid dealing with it. I tried to tell her that although she and I both know that WE will never be together again - she knows I'm unable to ever give her another chance - that she really does need to get some help... for her own sake. She'll remember what I said and tried down the road, I reckon, but that was all I was able to do for her. She appears a little sad, but it is just surface emotion (just like the laughs I can still evoke from her). She is dreading confronting her true feelings and is doing everything she can to put it off... which is just going to make it worse when it does boil over. Like I said, she understands this on an intellectual level. That doesn't seem to help.

Reading a few books on the phenomenon at the moment. It does explain why it occurred so suddenly a couple of months ago when her uncle died and why she never said anything to me or anyone else.... and was unwilling to even try and work on things. She keeps doing everything in her power to avoid dealing with his death, us, or anything else beyond surface feelings. Her family is starting to catch on that something is wrong beyond what they thought. Although, they still don't understand what it is like I do. She admitted that.

While I have let it all out and started to move on, she is still stuffing things in a closet fit to bursting. It is not going to be pleasant when that door comes open.

At least she and I will both know I did everything I could do to try and help. I even offered to pay for IC for her if she wanted. No strings - I am moving on regardless. She just doesn't want to face any of it.

I have no choice but to wash my hands of it now and continue on. There is nothing else I can think of to do.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Ceegee said:


> HB,
> 
> Your wife neither valued or respected the marriage. That is the reason you find yourself where you are.
> 
> ...


@OP

I was going to post something but Ceegee nailed it IMO

Toxic MILs are a bad sign, I've dealt with that too from STBX and her manipulative tendencies. If I was you and I had to pinpoint the lessons I've learnt it would be:

- Never date a dreamer/romantic, especially under the age of 30
- Never expect an immature woman to understand mature principles
- Never underestimate the influence of your mother in law

But that's just me, sorry I can't be of much help.


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## CrazyBeautiful1 (Oct 21, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> She came by again today. She knows something is wrong, but throws herself into work and everything else to avoid dealing with it. I tried to tell her that although she and I both know that WE will never be together again - she knows I'm unable to ever give her another chance - that she really does need to get some help... for her own sake. She'll remember what I said and tried down the road, I reckon, but that was all I was able to do for her. She appears a little sad, but it is just surface emotion (just like the laughs I can still evoke from her). She is dreading confronting her true feelings and is doing everything she can to put it off... which is just going to make it worse when it does boil over. Like I said, she understands this on an intellectual level. That doesn't seem to help.
> 
> Reading a few books on the phenomenon at the moment. It does explain why it occurred so suddenly a couple of months ago when her uncle died and why she never said anything to me or anyone else.... and was unwilling to even try and work on things. She keeps doing everything in her power to avoid dealing with his death, us, or anything else beyond surface feelings. Her family is starting to catch on that something is wrong beyond what they thought. Although, they still don't understand what it is like I do. She admitted that.
> 
> ...


She is lucky to have you in her life. You seem to be a very strong and understanding man. Even after what has happened, you are trying to be there for her and encouraging her to help herself. I respect that, a lot. I definitely think she needs to go to IC and work through her uncles death, and anything else she has stuffed in there. I used to be that type of person, and to a certain extent, I still am. She's going nowhere fast if she keeps stuffing everything down without dealing with it. I feel bad for her  that's a really dark place when everything boils to the surface. Hopefully she gets some help before that happens!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Hopefully... but I doubt it. Avoidance (and the inevitable breakdown) becomes a habit that will likely plague her the rest of her life if she doesn't confront it soon. Just like blame shifting and relationship bouncing are habitual for cheaters.

I just need to stay away because I don't want to see it unfold (or be anywhere near honestly).


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

She brought me the stuff I need to get the D papers filled in properly. She even dropped off a bit of money to help with the bills - I wasn't expecting that, but it was nice.

Just sorry for the situation all the way around, but I know I've done all I could. I also know I'll be fine once that gavel hits.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

STBXW stopped by this morning to get a computer part I told her she could have - and drop off another that I needed. I met her outside, swapped the parts and just said, "Happy Thanksgiving. Tell your family I said hello and Happy Thanksgiving to them too". I wasn't being sarcastic, she knew I meant it. She looked sad that I didn't invite her in and I heard her say, "Happy Thanksgiving, I hope you have a good day" to my back as I walked back in and shut the door. I haven't heard anything else from her today.

I was able to spend part of the afternoon with some of my family and that helped while I was there. Now I am stuffed close to bursting and alone.

The 180 is much easier when you are angry or indifferent. I'm just sad...

The senselessness of it all irritates me. The fact that she has destroyed my trust beyond all hope of repair for unknown reasons irritates me. The fact that I know she is screwing herself up every bit as much she has me - and isn't even aware of it - irritates me. So why the h*ll am I _sad_?

I hate dwelling on what could have/what should have been. Totally useless waste of time and energy. I _know_ that - yet I am unable to stop it. First Thanksgiving in 10 years we weren't together. I can't even go out to try and take my mind off of it. No one goes out on Thanksgiving. Most places aren't even open around here.

So I am stuck in this house surrounded by ghosts of memories that won't leave me be.

I hope Christmas isn't this way.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> STBXW stopped by this morning to get a computer part I told her she could have - and drop off another that I needed. I met her outside, swapped the parts and just said, "Happy Thanksgiving. Tell your family I said hello and Happy Thanksgiving to them too". I wasn't being sarcastic, she knew I meant it. She looked sad that I didn't invite her in and I heard her say, "Happy Thanksgiving, I hope you have a good day" to my back as I walked back in and shut the door. I haven't heard anything else from her today.


This was a good 180 move buddy, well done for being strong. :smthumbup: It's always more difficult on special occasions/holidays. 



> I was able to spend part of the afternoon with some of my family and that helped while I was there. Now I am stuffed close to bursting and alone.
> 
> The 180 is much easier when you are angry or indifferent. I'm just sad...


Keeping busy and in good company helps no end I find. I was like this on my birthday. I was fine whilst I was with my family, but when I got home and I was back to sitting alone in a house full of memories, that made me sad.



> The senselessness of it all irritates me. The fact that she has destroyed my trust beyond all hope of repair for unknown reasons irritates me. The fact that I know she is screwing herself up every bit as much she has me - and isn't even aware of it - irritates me. So why the h*ll am I _sad_?


Your trust isn't destroyed beyond all hope of repair, but perhaps your trust towards _her_ is. You'll trust again one day though, don't worry. It takes time and all of us that have been abandoned/betrayed will struggle with trusting someone else, making ourselves vulnerable to someone else for a long time. But it will get better.



> I hate dwelling on what could have/what should have been. Totally useless waste of time and energy. I _know_ that - yet I am unable to stop it. First Thanksgiving in 10 years we weren't together. I can't even go out to try and take my mind off of it. No one goes out on Thanksgiving. Most places aren't even open around here.


It's difficult not to dwell, I think that it's a perfectly natural part of the grieving process. There will come a time when you learn to "live in the now", and the past & future become irrelevant. Don't dwell on the future, nobody knows what it holds so why worry about it right? As for the past, well that's already happened and can't be changed, so don't dwell on that either!



> So I am stuck in this house surrounded by ghosts of memories that won't leave me be.
> 
> I hope Christmas isn't this way.


I know this feeling well, to begin with the house was a torture chamber, everywhere I looked reminded me of her. The place was so quiet, eerily quiet and lonely. I found that re-arranging things, even slightly helped. I actually got some books and DVDs out of storage and put them up on my bookshelf, because after she'd taken her stuff it felt empty. Even the empty space was a constant reminder of what had been lost. 

If your house is as it was when she left, do little things to make it your own space. Even if you don't re-arrange furniture, or re-decorate, just moving things about, getting things out of storage etc will help no end. Maybe hang some art or prints to change things up, even better if you can hang things that YOU like, but you know SHE wouldn't.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

WantWifeBack said:


> I know this feeling well, to begin with the house was a torture chamber, everywhere I looked reminded me of her. The place was so quiet, eerily quiet and lonely. I found that re-arranging things, even slightly helped. I actually got some books and DVDs out of storage and put them up on my bookshelf, because after she'd taken her stuff it felt empty. Even the empty space was a constant reminder of what had been lost.
> 
> If your house is as it was when she left, do little things to make it your own space. Even if you don't re-arrange furniture, or re-decorate, just moving things about, getting things out of storage etc will help no end. Maybe hang some art or prints to change things up, even better if you can hang things that YOU like, but you know SHE wouldn't.


It's not how she left it. For one, it was a god-awful mess in her areas. I've cleaned all of that (after taking pics to remind me how bad it was) and packed/moved all of her stuff to either the garage or her walk-in closet. Still have a lot to do though - 10 years worth of accumulated crap takes a while. Think I'll re-arrange all of the furniture... really should be studying though.

Back to doing better this morning.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> It's not how she left it. For one, it was a god-awful mess in her areas. I've cleaned all of that (after taking pics to remind me how bad it was) and packed/moved all of her stuff to either the garage or her walk-in closet. Still have a lot to do though - 10 years worth of accumulated crap takes a while. Think I'll re-arrange all of the furniture... really should be studying though.
> 
> Back to doing better this morning.


Yeah, my STBXW was very messy too! I've mostly tidied everything away or disposed of the junk/mess she left now. It does take a while to sift through it all.

Good to hear you're doing better buddy  Keep up the good work!


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

WantWifeBack said:


> Yeah, my STBXW was very messy too! I've mostly tidied everything away or disposed of the junk/mess she left now. It does take a while to sift through it all.
> 
> Good to hear you're doing better buddy  Keep up the good work!


Thanks, brother. You too. I keep reminding myself it has only been three weeks and I will still have down days ahead, I guess. I know I don't have as hard of a row to hoe as many do on these boards. I did (mostly) learn my lesson before with the first XW - the pathological liar/cheater.

I think I'm only having trouble now because this one wasn't anything like the first wife on the inside (both gorgeous on the outside). She walked like she talked for the entire time up until three weeks ago. After tons of checking, I can't find any evidence of an affair. The end result is still the same, but it has been harder to deal with for some reason. I guess my incessant need to understand everything around me - sometimes there is no understanding and that is hard for me to accept. At least with the first one, I had massive amounts of self-righteous anger to keep me going at times. I never even looked back.

This time I have very little anger... just sadness and pity. Those aren't nearly as motivating.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Thanks, brother. You too. I keep reminding myself it has only been three weeks and I will still have down days ahead, I guess. I know I don't have as hard of a row to hoe as many do on these boards. I did (mostly) learn my lesson before with the first XW - the pathological liar/cheater.
> 
> I think I'm only having trouble now because this one wasn't anything like the first wife on the inside (both gorgeous on the outside). She walked like she talked for the entire time up until three weeks ago. After tons of checking, I can't find any evidence of an affair. The end result is still the same, but it has been harder to deal with for some reason. I guess my incessant need to understand everything around me - sometimes there is no understanding and that is hard for me to accept. At least with the first one, I had massive amounts of self-righteous anger to keep me going at times. I never even looked back.
> 
> This time I have very little anger... just sadness and pity. Those aren't nearly as motivating.


Unfortunately, I think you'll have down days for a long while to come yet. I'm 3 months in now, it feels like it's been a lot longer, and I still have my down days.

In all honesty, for me, it's the first time I've ever truly loved someone, first time I've ever been truly heartbroken, and it's awful. But, that doesn't make your experience any less difficult or painful than mine, we're all in the same boat, whether we've crossed the river 1 or 100 times is irrelevant.

I too am the kind of person that _needs_ to understand everything, but I'm learning that some things just can't be explained and there is no point stressing over them.

I looked for evidence of affair too, and I didn't find anything concrete, but in my case there is a massive amount of circumstantial evidence that points to that. But as you said, the end result is the same, so I need to let that evidence go and not build up anger or resentment.

Sadness and pity are terrible motivators. Why not set up something nice for yourself? A short holiday, or some kind of goal to aim for, that will give you something to look forward to, which is a good motivator. Even if it's just going out and getting drunk this weekend, like myself, it's something to look forward to and it gets you through the days.

To start with I felt like I was trapped in endless days of the same emotionally draining, lonley and isolated BS. Once I started making plans, getting out, setting goals for myself and so on, things started looking up at an almost exponential pace. I honestly thought it would take me a good 2-3 years to get over all of this. Now 3 months in, I wouldn't say I'm "over it" but I'm doing so much better than I thought I would be.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

I do get out, as you know... and inevitably feel way better. Yesterday was just tougher than I expected with nothing to do around here. I stayed busy and got through it.

I really don't think it will take me long to fully move on. Other than my brief dip into low self-esteem - and thoroughly shaken confidence - after she left and caught me by surprise, I know who and what I am... and I'm happy with that. Hard won lessons from my first foray into marriage. 

It will take me longer to quit feeling like an idiot for being fooled than it will to get over her.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> I do get out, as you know... and inevitably feel way better. Yesterday was just tougher than I expected with nothing to do around here. I stayed busy and got through it.
> 
> I really don't think it will take me long to fully move on. Other than my brief dip into low self-esteem - and thoroughly shaken confidence - after she left and caught me by surprise, I know who and what I am... and I'm happy with that. Hard won lessons from my first foray into marriage.
> 
> It will take me longer to quit feeling like an idiot for being fooled than it will to get over her.


I do know, it sounds like you have a good time when you go out! 

Holidays, or any time at home alone are always going to be tough. I find my guitar is my best way to cope when I'm at home with nothing to do.

I'm glad you're going well man, and that you know yourself and know how to be happy in yourself, and by yourself.

I know what you mean about feeling like an idiot. Sometimes when I think how overjoyed I was to marry her, I feel sick.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

I took this from WWB's thread and thought it more appropriate to respond here.


Honorbound said:


> That is the key. Not dwelling and focusing on you.
> 
> I did read the No More Mr. Nice guy book. I didn't identify with it at all. I generally do what I think is right and don't care what others think... even though that bites me in the buttocks occasionally. Whereas the guys in the book changed their personalities in a constant attempt to seek validation from others. I genuinely don't care if people like me or not (some don't...some do) and don't need their validation...


We're on the same page.



> Mine showed the signs for infidelity too. That was the first conclusion I came to. After a lot of checking, I no longer think it is the case. It is likely something else that is going to bite her in the a$$ one day. It doesn't matter. The result is indistinguishable. Would have just made it easier for me to laugh in her face and move on if that is what it was - I've dealt with that before. I found this harder to just let go, even though I know that is the proper method for dealing with either. I am bad about wanting to know "why" and get frustrated when I don't, and will likely never, really know.


The two EAs concerningly early in your marriage does point to someone with a propensity to look outside the marriage for emotional engagement/attachment. You've looked of an affair and found no evidence (but she did use four out of ten excuses of cheaters). But it's the trait of looking outside the marriage than within which I find relevant.

All relationships are easy in the good times. It's when the sh!t hits the fan we really see what people are made of. Common 'tests' of a marriage include; job loss, deaths of loved ones, injury or illness...

When you add in the MIL's failed marriages, I get the feeling your wife doesn't realise that the way to get through the hard times is to turn to your spouse. For her the answer is to be found outside the marriage not within it.

Does that make sense?


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> I took this from WWB's thread and thought it more appropriate to respond here.
> We're on the same page.
> 
> The two EAs concerningly early in your marriage does point to someone with a propensity to look outside the marriage for emotional engagement/attachment. You've looked of an affair and found no evidence (but she did use four out of ten excuses of cheaters). But it's the trait of looking outside the marriage than within which I find relevant.
> ...


Makes perfect sense to me .


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> I took this from WWB's thread and thought it more appropriate to respond here.
> We're on the same page.
> 
> The two EAs concerningly early in your marriage does point to someone with a propensity to look outside the marriage for emotional engagement/attachment. You've looked of an affair and found no evidence (but she did use four out of ten excuses of cheaters). But it's the trait of looking outside the marriage than within which I find relevant.
> ...



That makes perfect sense!!! That is it exactly - me no longer pulling in six figures, then the death of her uncle, then out like a bad smell when things got a little tough!


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Azteca's observation made perfect sense to me yesterday. I quit thinking about what she always _claimed_ to believe in and how she has actually _acted_ over the years. That observation was spot on when viewed in that light. 

You can teach an ill-tempered parrot to say "I love you" over and over, but that doesn't mean the little [email protected]@rd won't snip your finger off and fly away if given the opportunity. Lesson learned. Less about how they talk than about how they walk - although for many years (other than that first one) she walked exactly like she talked. I guess that goes back to our discussion of people _trying_ to be something they are not. Hoping to "fake it until they make it".

Definitely going to make me much more gun-shy in the future. Not sure if there is any way around that.

She did text me last night before I went out. She said she just wanted to tell me hello and hoped I had a good visit with my family, that she had a good visit with her's, and to have a good night.

I didn't respond for over an hour - I started not to respond at all. Then I thought about it for a bit and came up with two possible responses: 

*Response A*: "You know what would be a good night for me? If a frozen turd from the International Space Station falls out of the sky and strikes you in the forehead at 26,000 miles-per-hour! That would just be great!"

*Response B*: "Ok"

After much inner debating, I went with Response B. 

What is it Conrad is always saying? Respond if they contact you, but stay cool and dispassionate? - something like that. :smthumbup:


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Azteca's observation made perfect sense to me yesterday. I quit thinking about what she always _claimed_ to believe in and how she has actually _acted_ over the years. That observation was spot on when viewed in that light.
> 
> You can teach an ill-tempered parrot to say "I love you" over and over, but that doesn't mean the little [email protected]@rd won't snip your finger off and fly away if given the opportunity. Lesson learned. Less about how they talk than about how they walk - although for many years (other than that first one) she walked exactly like she talked. I guess that goes back to our discussion of people _trying_ to be something they are not. Hoping to "fake it until they make it".
> 
> Definitely going to make me much more gun-shy in the future. Not sure if there is any way around that.


You know, I think the biggest single indicator for trouble in the future for both you and WWB was to take a look at your wives mothers. In you wife's case:



> BTW, the MIL is the last person on the planet anyone should get relationship advice from - several failed marriages, kids with different ones, and wasn't considered a fit custodian for any of them


This is the primary person your wife will look at for an example of being a wife. And who she might turn to for guidance. MIL's idea of 'normal' is quite different to many.

In your wife's case she also had to contend with a perfect storm of incidents which singly can throw even the strongest marriage off course. I don't have sympathy for a spouse who can just walk out on a marriage without a discussion or even trying. But, I can see how in your wife's case her mother would not have equipped her with the skills to face the inevitable challenges of marriage. Instead she's been taught when things get too much, abort mission, move on.

Response B was the right choice


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

She does indeed go to her for relationship advice. A fact I pointed out to her that was akin to asking Jeffery Dahmer for tasty recipes. 

She didn't appreciate the comparison.


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## Gonnabealright (Oct 24, 2013)

> Toxic MILs are a bad sign, I've dealt with that too from STBX and her manipulative tendencies. If I was you and I had to pinpoint the lessons I've learnt it would be:
> 
> - Never date a dreamer/romantic, especially under the age of 30
> - Never expect an immature woman to understand mature principles
> - Never underestimate the influence of your mother in law


Good advice. I am also worried that I draw cheaters to me now. My last two wives were cheaters. The first marriage lasted 9 months when I was 23, I told her I didn't love her and she had an affair. I chalked it up to being immature. The second one was 6 years married and 9 years together. I thought I did it right. Looking back, I took the advice that the good women are not sitting on icecubes waiting for me. They are in relationships already. I dated stbxw while she was living with another man but not married and when it got serious I asked her to move out and she did. I still slept with her and had an EA with her before she left the BF. stbxw's mother also cheated on her husband and left him. 
Point being, it was deffinately a wrong move and I will never do that again. I'm sticking to single/dating only women and I am going to get to know the MIL and FIL before I go popping any questions. 
I'm not sure if I can date while still getting divorced unless its just a one night stand. That's about all I'm worth now anyways. I know I'm not ready for commitment. 
I did chat with a very young 27 old who has a bf of two months. It was nothing romantic but I sure do wish it was! I like her and knew her before she went to college. She now done with a masters and is doing well and back in town. I wouldn't want to have a one nighter with her because I really do like her. Either way, its just a fantasy at the moment.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> You know, I think the biggest single indicator for trouble in the future for both you and WWB was to take a look at your wives mothers. In you wife's case:


I think you're probably right Azteca. Although by the time I knew my MIL & SFIL (Step-Father-In-Law) they were both kind and loving people that took me in and treated me as family, they weren't always like that.

Just gotta look out for all of those red flags at the start really.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Well, I have come to realize this White Knight Syndrome I suffer from _leads_ me to pick broken people. I try to protect them, fix them, make them better than they were before I found them, and hope they live by example - _my_ example, not MIL's or anyone else. A sad, vulnerable, beautiful woman seems to be my kryptonite. 

I am always at least _partially_ successful - the first XW was a horrible liar when I met her - now she lies as well as the best used car salesmen I have ever seen. The current STBXW didn't even have a high school education when I met her - now she's got her GED, some college, a hunger for reading, writing, expert computer skills, and a vastly improved vocabulary. Both _claimed_ to follow the same code as I do in life/relationships.... neither came anywhere close when all was said and done.

Is it too much to ask for honor and integrity? Are my protective instincts actually bringing this down on myself? Don't get me wrong, I have dated many women - some who weren't broken, some who were. The ones that weren't we got along well for a while, then amicably went our separate ways. The 'spark' just didn't last long. The other broken ones it felt like trying to pound a square peg into a round hole - no matter how much we might have cared for each other, something was just off so I let them go.

I know I am thoroughly tired of my self-imposed DIY projects. They seem to blow up in my face. It doesn't help that those kinds seem to gravitate to me or that I have as much trouble turning them away as I would a starving dog. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that I get flea-bitten every now and then.

I don't want to lose my honor and compassion, but I need to find a way to locate women who aren't out to take advantage of those qualities (or the money I generally earn). Or at least a better way of weeding them out. I have a tendency to take people at their word until they give me a reason not to... even then I'm apparently bad about giving second chances. Never more than that, but it seems that is bad enough... for me.

Just venting a bit again. Love this place for that alone. Knowing I am not alone is an even better salve than I ever expected to find.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Well, I have come to realize this White Knight Syndrome I suffer from _leads_ me to pick broken people. I try to protect them, fix them, make them better than they were before I found them, and hope they live by example - _my_ example, not MIL's or anyone else. A sad, vulnerable, beautiful woman seems to be my kryptonite.
> 
> I am always at least _partially_ successful - the first XW was a horrible liar when I met her - now she lies as well as the best used car salesmen I have ever seen. The current STBXW didn't even have a high school education when I met her - now she's got her GED, some college, a hunger for reading, writing, expert computer skills, and a vastly improved vocabulary. Both _claimed_ to follow the same code as I do in life/relationships.... neither came anywhere close when all was said and done.
> 
> ...


I suffer from White Knight Syndrome too. I think for me, I see the broken child in me that I failed to rescue in broken women, so I feel like I want to rescue those instead. What I need to remember is I deserve better than a broken woman, and you do too.

I too like to think that I have integrity and honour, and I think this definitely plays a part in rescuing the damsel in distress.

Locating the "good ones" is going to one of the toughest parts about all this one, but it'll sure be fun weeding out the unsuitable ones too .


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

This is a tricky one Honorbound. I don't buy the idea that you should not change your partner. The whole point of a relationship is that you improve each other over time. The expectation should be to grow with each other. Life experience has to change you over time or you're not making the best use of being human. So, in that sense we all take on projects. Perhaps the most telling thing is that you describe them as "DIY projects". We should effect change in our partners, not manage their shortcomings. This way we don't end up repeatedly rescuing them.

Take low self-esteem. I think we ought to help the woman in our lives overcome this. My wife's ex-fiance didn't treat her has well as he ought. In the early days of our relationship we talked over her past relationship in detail. I didn't take the Way of the Weasel and say "Oh I would never treat you like that, I'd treat you like a princess...". Instead I told her "Don't let people treat you that way" Not me. No anybody.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> This is a tricky one Honorbound. I don't buy the idea that you should not change your partner. The whole point of a relationship is that you improve each other over time. The expectation should be to grow with each other. Life experience has to change you over time or you're not making the best use of being human. So, in that sense we all take on projects. Perhaps the most telling thing is that you describe them as "DIY projects". We should effect change in our partners, not manage their shortcomings. This way we don't end up repeatedly rescuing them.
> 
> Take low self-esteem. I think we ought to help the woman in our lives overcome this. My wife's ex-fiance didn't treat her has well as he ought. In the early days of our relationship we talked over her past relationship in detail. I didn't take the Way of the Weasel and say "Oh I would never treat you like that, I'd treat you like a princess...". Instead I told her "Don't let people treat you that way" Not me. No anybody.


I did the same... in fact, still do. I told her exactly the same throughout our marriage and even after she left. I asked her not to forget everything she has learned and not to fall back into the pattern she was in when we started. You don't need someone else to know your self worth. Which, unfortunately, I see her doing precisely that. I guess it boils down to her need to seek validation outside of a relationship instead of in it. She had done so well for so long, I thought that particular shortcoming was gone... I was wrong and devastated by it.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

I hope nothing I've posted is taken as a criticism. Not the intention at all.


Honorbound said:


> I did the same... in fact, still do. I told her exactly the same throughout our marriage and even after she left. I asked her not to forget everything she has learned and not to fall back into the pattern she was in when we started. You don't need someone else to know your self worth. Which, unfortunately, I see her doing precisely that.* I guess it boils down to her need to seek validation outside of a relationship instead of in it. *She had done so well for so long, I thought that particular shortcoming was gone... I was wrong and devastated by it.


I think you're right.

Things is, is there really answer to "how can I stop this happening again?" We've discussed a few red flags but I don't think you can really insure yourself against all possibilities. The storms that a marriage has to sail through can't easily be replicated during the dating stage. The storm(s) hits and only then can you see if it's "All hands on deck" or "Man the lifeboats".


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

That is true.... when things are easy, who is going to complain? It is only during the tough times that you see people for who they truly are.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> That is true.... when things are easy, who is going to complain? It is only during the tough times that you see people for who they truly are.


This is very true, people show their true selves at times like this. My STBXW showed her true self, I didn't like what I saw.

On the flip-side though, I've found my true self again, and that's a good thing, I like my true self.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

WantWifeBack said:


> This is very true, people show their true selves at times like this. My STBXW showed her true self, I didn't like what I saw.
> 
> On the flip-side though, I've found my true self again, and that's a good thing, I like my true self.


As do I, brother.... as do I.

I'm heading to the courthouse today to file. I printed out everything yesterday (I hope). I'm sure the people there can tell me if I have everything I need or not.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> As do I, brother.... as do I.
> 
> I'm heading to the courthouse today to file. I printed out everything yesterday (I hope). I'm sure the people there can tell me if I have everything I need or not.


They should be able to advise you on whether you have everything in order or not.

When the time comes and we can legally divorce next May, I won't be able to file anyway because I realised at the weekend that STBXW has taking our certificate of Marriage, which you need to file for divorce.

Good luck at the courthouse buddy, and stay strong because it will probably be an emotional experience.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

WantWifeBack said:


> They should be able to advise you on whether you have everything in order or not.
> 
> When the time comes and we can legally divorce next May, I won't be able to file anyway because I realised at the weekend that STBXW has taking our certificate of Marriage, which you need to file for divorce.
> 
> Good luck at the courthouse buddy, and stay strong because it will probably be an emotional experience.


Bah, I think I might need that as well... time to go digging through her mess. Yes, it extended to the most lackadaisical filing system I have ever seen... if you can call shoving everything randomly into a drawer or three a filing system. Hopefully I can find it. If not, maybe they can pull it up there since it is the same place we filed initially.

Thanks, WWB. I had a pleasant lunch date yesterday (with one of my aforementioned ex-girlfriends that wasn't 'broken' and who parted on good terms), so I'm doing well. Still not really looking for anything with anyone, but the conversation and companionship was pleasant. :smthumbup:


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Bah, I think I might need that as well... time to go digging through her mess. Yes, it extended to the most lackadaisical filing system I have ever seen... if you can call shoving everything randomly into a drawer or three a filing system. Hopefully I can find it. If not, maybe they can pull it up there since it is the same place we filed initially.
> 
> Thanks, WWB. I had a pleasant lunch date yesterday (with one of my aforementioned ex-girlfriends that wasn't 'broken' and who parted on good terms), so I'm doing well. Still not really looking for anything with anyone, but the conversation and companionship was pleasant. :smthumbup:


Yeah, my STBXW was also quite messy. Her filing system was a big stack 'n' store box filled with loose paperwork. I remember one weekend going out and buying some folders for categorising it all and spending several hours doing so.

Good to hear you had a lunch date buddy! That's good progress. I know what you mean about not looking for anything, I feel the same way. I still can't imagine being with anyone else. That will change in time though.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Well, I can imagine it... I just don't have the desire to be in anything other than a friend relationship at this point. Still getting back to myself and feeling a little better everyday... barring the occasional, albeit less frequent, dips of the roller-coaster.

Thanks, brother.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Well, I can imagine it... I just don't have the desire to be in anything other than a friend relationship at this point. Still getting back to myself and feeling a little better everyday... barring the occasional, albeit less frequent, dips of the roller-coaster.
> 
> Thanks, brother.


That's good that you can imagine it. I can look at an attractive woman and think "I'd like to sleep with her on a purely physical level" but when it comes to relationships, I'm still very hung up on STBXW. Some days are better than others though!

Any luck finding that certificate?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

> Well, I have come to realize this White Knight Syndrome I suffer from leads me to pick broken people. I try to protect them, fix them, make them better than they were before I found them, and hope they live by example - my example, not MIL's or anyone else. A sad, vulnerable, beautiful woman seems to be my kryptonite.
> 
> I am always at least partially successful - *the first XW was a horrible liar when I met her - now she lies as well as the best used car salesmen I have ever seen.* The current STBXW didn't even have a high school education when I met her - now she's got her GED, some college, a hunger for reading, writing, expert computer skills, and a vastly improved vocabulary. Both claimed to follow the same code as I do in life/relationships.... neither came anywhere close when all was said and done.


:lol:

Pour yourself into job and education. You will find an outlet for the blues. IT is a both an tough and easy branch. Are you a programmer. Seems like C++ or whatever that language is always offers work.

Another business Apple product repair. Of course depth perception might be important for that.

Are you a PC/Linux Windows, networking type?

Your sounds broken. Just keep telling OK, "sorry you feel that way", etc. Eventually she will stop trying to suck blood.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> :lol:
> 
> Pour yourself into job and education. You will find an outlet for the blues. IT is a both an tough and easy branch.


I am. I'm determined to go back to school next semester... something I have put off, and regretted, for the last twenty-plus years because I felt obligated to provide for my family as best I could. Mostly very successfully money-wise. Each time something has happened to set me back, but I always get up again (owned a successful architectural design company for a number of years before the building industry crashed, got into IT and was successful until the company went out of business, etc.). Starting over gets old, but I have taken this as a sign that now is the right time to focus on me for a change.



LongWalk said:


> Are you a PC/Linux Windows, networking type?


Yes :smthumbup: I like the programming aspects too, but it has been many years since I have done any. Most I can do these days is read through the code and understand what it is trying to do. Most of the languages are similar. Once you understand the syntax you can figure it out - if not be proficient in writing your own.



LongWalk said:


> Your sounds broken. Just keep telling OK, "sorry you feel that way", etc. Eventually she will stop trying to suck blood.


Yep. I've come to realize I attract the broken ones. I feel the need to protect them and try 'fix' them by showing them a better way.... it never works out. I just end up propping them up for a while.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

WantWifeBack said:


> Any luck finding that certificate?


Nope. If I don't find it in the next few hours (still pretty early here) I'll just go with what I have and let them tell me what else I need.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Nope. If I don't find it in the next few hours (still pretty early here) I'll just go with what I have and let them tell me what else I need.


Yeah that's probably the best plan. I always forget about time zone differences, it's almost 1pm here, which means it's almost lunch time


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Turns out I don't need it. The ladies there were very helpful, I actually had more paperwork than is needed. However, the ones that are required we both need to sign and have notarized. Luckily, we can do it there... so I have a date with her Thursday morning (her next day off) to meet at my house and drive up there to sign and file.

I was actually smiling when I called her to set it up. She sounded happy too. I will never take her back or invest any other emotion in her, but it is nice that we can both get along and get this done. I hope nothing changes that. I have you folks to thank for helping me get past my hurt and anger. Also, for helping me realize that I brought a lot of this down on myself through my predilections for broken, needy women.

I really do wish her well and hold no ill feelings. So far she has kept her word about making this as easy (and inexpensive) as possible (she's still been paying her part of the bills here as well as her half of the divorce costs). As long as she continues to treat me honorably, I will do the same. Since I am not hoping for R or that she'll change her mind, it is actually pretty easy to stay upbeat about the whole thing. I'm sure I'll still have the occasional down moment, but I am equally sure it will pass.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Turns out I don't need it. The ladies there were very helpful, I actually had more paperwork than is needed. However, the ones that are required we both need to sign and have notarized. Luckily, we can do it there... so I have a date with her Thursday morning (her next day off) to meet at my house and drive up there to sign and file.
> 
> I was actually smiling when I called her to set it up. She sounded happy too. I will never take her back or invest any other emotion in her, but it is nice that we can both get along and get this done. I hope nothing changes that. I have you folks to thank for helping me get past my hurt and anger. Also, for helping me realize that I brought a lot of this down on myself through my predilections for broken, needy women.
> 
> I really do wish her well and hold no ill feelings. So far she has kept her word about making this as easy (and inexpensive) as possible (she's still been paying her part of the bills here as well as her half of the divorce costs). As long as she continues to treat me honorably, I will do the same. Since I am not hoping for R or that she'll change her mind, it is actually pretty easy to stay upbeat about the whole thing. I'm sure I'll still have the occasional down moment, but I am equally sure it will pass.


Ah that's good news! Must be a UK thing that it's required.

So Thursday is the big day that you file? Best of luck and I'm glad she's keeping things as amicable as possible .

When STBXW left, she told me she would pay all divorce costs as I never wanted it in the first place. However, I don't trust her one shred anymore, so we'll see!

I'm not hoping for R either, in fact if she reached out now, it would take a miracle for me to agree to even try. You're right, it does make things easier.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

When did the sex stop?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> When did the sex stop?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The day she left, I reckon. Although I _always_ had to initiate (which gets really old) from the very beginning. She was always a bit prudish, it seemed to me. She would flirt and give me signs that she wanted to occasionally, but I always had to be the one to actually start things. I admit, it did make me feel unwanted occasionally. She had told me once, before we were married, that something had happened to her when she was a teen that made her leery of sex (and the reason she had moved to my state to live with her mother just before I met her for the first time). I never got the full story from her. Something about a friend of her father's (both police officers) stalking her and possibly attempting to rape her.

I never got the full story or very many details. I don't even know if it is true or not. That isn't something you can press someone for details on if they don't want to relive it. I let it be and figured she'd tell me in time if she needed to. She never did. She would make allusions to it sometimes, and she did seemingly have more of a fear reaction to suddenly seeing a police cruiser than most of us do (involuntary gasp, pale, shaky). All of which just played into my White Knight syndrome and her need for a protector. I'm a big, muscular guy who isn't afraid to go toe to toe with anyone. I might not win every time (no one does), but I will dust myself off and go again unless they kill me. She had known that about me for years. I think that is what drew her to me and I to her. _(I know, I know WWB, magnolia, Helo, and Aztec - I need to stop falling into that trap. I'm working on it)_

As far as frequency, before I was diagnosed with low-T it had slowed down to 1-2 times a month, after the testosterone treatments it shot up drastically (several times a week). I don't recall her ever rebuffing me or telling me she 'wasn't in the mood' when I wanted to do it. It just always had to be me initiating the contact.

She wasn't bad at it, but wasn't very good either. It is tough when your partner is uncomfortable even discussing it.

me: "What do you like?" 
her: "I don't know"
me: "<sigh>" - then have to proceed with trial and error things for god knows how long. No talking dirty - check. Loves foreplay on her neck - check. Likes me to get her to orgasm three, maybe four, times before she is ready for me to finish - check. Not much into role-play - check. Doesn't like x. Loves y. Indifferent to z. etc. etc. etc.

It eventually got where it didn't bother me overly much... our relationship was still strong in all of the other areas at the time.

For most of our marriage I was able to work from home, so we were together most of the time. Other than that first year of marriage (when I caught the EA's), she was always a great partner/friend and an 'okay' lover. After catching her in the EA's that first year she never really had an _opportunity_ to cheat... if she had, maybe she would have - and I would have been done and moved on years ago... 

...or possibly it is just the recent financial stress and lower income that caused her to walk out... 

...or she is just shut down emotionally like she claims... 

...or maybe some 18 year old POS pizza delivery boy has been whispering in her ear for the last two months... 

I'll never know & it truly doesn't matter. I don't really care. I know who and what I am. If she suddenly didn't like that, or never really liked it, or fell into another EA with someone else shortly before leaving - that is all on her. Not me. She left. I didn't. She knew there was no coming back after.

I _was_ predominantly happy for the vast majority of those years (pretty sure she was too - she still says she was) and I refuse to rewrite history under a different filter. I'll take it like I remember it and not dirty it with "what if what she was really doing/thinking was...". The laughter, contentment, closeness, friendship, and happiness were _real for me_. Second guessing that is futile and leads to madness.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Conrad is due back today - I think.

Ill see if I can nudge him over here.

Lots of stuff stick out - but I'll let him teach you and help find your way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> Conrad is due back today - I think.
> 
> Ill see if I can nudge him over here.
> 
> ...


I am ok with this.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> The day she left, I reckon. Although I _always_ had to initiate (which gets really old) from the very beginning. She was always a bit prudish, it seemed to me. She would flirt and give me signs that she wanted to occasionally, but I always had to be the one to actually start things. I admit, it did make me feel unwanted occasionally. She had told me once, before we were married, that something had happened to her when she was a teen that made her leery of sex (and the reason she had moved to my state to live with her mother just before I met her for the first time). I never got the full story from her. Something about a friend of her father's (both police officers) stalking her and possibly attempting to rape her.
> 
> I never got the full story or very many details. I don't even know if it is true or not. That isn't something you can press someone for details on if they don't want to relive it. I let it be and figured she'd tell me in time if she needed to. She never did. She would make allusions to it sometimes, and she did seemingly have more of a fear reaction to suddenly seeing a police cruiser than most of us do (involuntary gasp, pale, shaky). All of which just played into my White Knight syndrome and her need for a protector. I'm a big, muscular guy who isn't afraid to go toe to toe with anyone. I might not win every time (no one does), but I will dust myself off and go again unless they kill me. She had known that about me for years. I think that is what drew her to me and I to her. _(I know, I know WWB, magnolia, Helo, and Aztec - I need to stop falling into that trap. I'm working on it)_
> 
> ...


I can relate to a lot of this. The sex for me slowed right down before she left. I was always initiating, and we had sex maybe once or twice a week. STBXW never opened up to me about what she likes, and if I'm honest, my tastes can be rather "unusual" so I never really just tried anything for fear she'd freak out. After she left she decided to tell me what she wanted from sex (a lot of good that was....) and it turns out, we were a perfect match sexually.

As far as falling in to _that trap_, well I can't possibly comment, seeing as I seem to rescue the broken ones and suffer from WKS too. 

You're right about never truly knowing - you won't. If you are the kind of person that's ok with unanswered questions, then it doesn't matter. Unanswered questions used to drive me insane, but I'm becoming more comfortable with them.



> Conrad is due back today


This is pleasing news.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Well, today is supposed to be the day I file. STBXW2 is supposed to meet me in a few hours so we can both sign and have the documents notarized.

I have to pay the filing fee today since she doesn't get paid until tomorrow. She is supposed to pay me back for that and for her share of the bills tomorrow morning. I am the one that offered that arrangement, just so I could get it filed and done. There is a possible ice storm coming late tonight/tomorrow, so if I don't get this process started today it might be a week or two.

I have no desire to put it off since my personal ethics keep me from doing anything while still married... and I have a date tonight. 

I just hope she shows this morning so we can get this over with.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Well, today is supposed to be the day I file. STBXW2 is supposed to meet me in a few hours so we can both sign and have the documents notarized.
> 
> I have to pay the filing fee today since she doesn't get paid until tomorrow. She is supposed to pay me back for that and for her share of the bills tomorrow morning. I am the one that offered that arrangement, just so I could get it filed and done. There is a possible ice storm coming late tonight/tomorrow, so if I don't get this process started today it might be a week or two.
> 
> ...


I hope everything goes smoothly with STBXW2 and filing buddy!

A date? Be sure to provide details afterwards  best of luck man!

Perhaps ask yourself to what extent you're still married, is it merely a formality? I know it is in my case.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

She did indeed show up this morning. I drove us both to the courthouse where the helpful lady that works there notarized the papers after we signed them. I admit I was shaking a bit so it was hard to write, but when I watched her signing she was shaking even harder and looked like she was about to cry. :wtf:

She has kept her word. She doesn't want anything from me. All she wants is what she came into the relationship with. I will likely give her a few more things she just hasn't thought of yet. She is even going to pay me a small amount per month for the next three years to help while I go back to school. All of this is in the paperwork she read through and signed (other than the paperwork says we have already divided everything we are going to, but in reality a lot of her stuff is still at my house... She knows I won't keep it from her). 

I really couldn't ask for a better outcome... well, other than to _not_ have been walked out on in the first place. Still, given that there is no taking _that_ painful event back, everything worked out well.

I have now filed and we have a court date in early February. There we will both be asked by a judge if we agree to what we signed. It is primarily a formality - and that will be that. I'll have one more piece of paper to fill out and send to the State on that day. This divorce is going way easier (and infinitely cheaper) than the last one. It kind of makes me nervous. :crazy:

She had a couple of hours to kill before she had to go to work, so I let her hang out at my house and we watched one of the shows we like that I had recorded the other night on the DVR. The conversation and the laughter was pleasant... even if there was a bittersweet undertone to it all.

I know I was a bit sad, but not in a bad way. She appeared that way too. Either way I am glad that we can both move on, and that, somehow, we didn't make enemies of each other in the process. She and I both know there will be no coming back after this... but we don't have to hate each other to go forward.

I have to admit, I am amazed it has worked out this way. My only frame of reference was my first divorce... that one she not only lied and cheated continually, she took my house, my dog, half of my money, and the vast majority of my time with my kids (courts here heavily slanted pro-mom back then). It was devastating and took years of me staying steadfast for the truth to come out and karma to catch up with her. 

...The kids still love her, but they know she is a mean-spirited compulsive liar... and about her affairs when they were little.

...She is now nearly three times the size she was when we were together. I saw a pic a month or so ago and didn't know who it was. I was told, "That's XW1!". I replied with, "Wow... are you sure that isn't some woman who ate XW1?" 

...She lives in a _trailer_ on her in-laws property - not 20 yards from their house. She lost the two-story house I had built for us myself years ago for not paying the mortgage she had taken out on it.

...Her current hubby has become a raging alcoholic (I wonder why? ) 

I guess it is true... the best revenge is living well and being happy - which I usually am... and will be again.


Did I mention I have a date tonight?


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> She did indeed show up this morning. I drove us both to the courthouse where the helpful lady that works there notarized the papers after we signed them. I admit I was shaking a bit so it was hard to write, but when I watched her signing she was shaking even harder and looked like she was about to cry. :wtf:
> 
> She has kept her word. She doesn't want anything from me. All she wants is what she came into the relationship with. I will likely give her a few more things she just hasn't thought of yet. She is even going to pay me a small amount per month for the next three years to help while I go back to school. All of this is in the paperwork she read through and signed (other than the paperwork says we have already divided everything we are going to, but in reality a lot of her stuff is still at my house... She knows I won't keep it from her).
> 
> ...


Everytime I saw my STBXW after she left, she'd seem sad and fill with tears etc, I never understood why considering this was what she wanted.

I'm pleased that she's kept her word and the whole process is going amicably and smoothly, that's the best any of us can hope for in this situation really!

Your STBXW1 sounds delightful. Looks like you had a lucky escape there buddy . 

The best revenge is living well - that's so true. My STBXW probably doesn't know how well I'm living/how happy I am these days. But, I don't need her to know. I know, and that's what counts .

You did mention you had a date, I assume this has taken place now . Care to share?


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Yep. I had a good time. With a possible 'ice storm' coming in there weren't as many people out, but we had a good time talking, drinking, singing, and shooting pool. Everybody in the place made me feel very welcome. My date and I have a bit of history, but we hadn't seen each other in 12 years or so. It was great catching up. She too is dealing with a WS and a 3 year old, so we laughed and commiserated a bit about our situations. She acted disbelieving that mine had just walked out, and told me, "What the h*ll was she thinking? There are women who would kill to have what she had!" - That made me laugh and feel better. She is determined to introduce me to some of her single friends... who am I to say no? 

I'm still not ready to do anything until the gavel hits in early February (just my personal code - idiotic as it might be), but I don't see anything wrong with forming a que... 

... maybe I should get one of those ticker things where you take a number - "Now serving number 47! Number 47!". 

I'm not at the place where I really _believe_ the attention I have received or the things some of them have said - even though they _did_ make me feel better about myself. Not yet, anyway. Does that make any sense?

I guess I still doubt myself a bit. Although my self-esteem is much improved over a month ago. It is one month to the day that she left, so I guess it is to be expected.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Yep. I had a good time. With a possible 'ice storm' coming in there weren't as many people out, but we had a good time talking, drinking, singing, and shooting pool. Everybody in the place made me feel very welcome. My date and I have a bit of history, but we hadn't seen each other in 12 years or so. It was great catching up. She too is dealing with a WS and a 3 year old, so we laughed and commiserated a bit about our situations. She acted disbelieving that mine had just walked out, and told me, "What the h*ll was she thinking? There are women who would kill to have what she had!" - That made me laugh and feel better. She is determined to introduce me to some of her single friends... who am I to say no?
> 
> I'm still not ready to do anything until the gavel hits in early February (just my personal code - idiotic as it might be), but I don't see anything wrong with forming a que...
> 
> ...


Ahhh I see, it's always worth being friendly with unavailable women, because every unavailable woman, knows available women 

Haha, like at the Deli? 47? Aim high brother - "Now serving number 470" .

I know what you mean about not believing compliments etc, this will come with time. I still don't fully believe them, but I've noticed I get more and more from complete strangers on a night out - why would a complete stranger compliment someone insincerely? 

One month is still early days man, I'm approaching the 3 month & 1 week mark now, and that's still early days.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> ... maybe I should get one of those ticker things where you take a number - "Now serving number 47! Number 47!".


 Like it



> I'm not at the place where I really _believe_ the attention I have received or the things some of them have said - even though they _did_ make me feel better about myself. Not yet, anyway. Does that make any sense?
> 
> I guess I still doubt myself a bit. Although my self-esteem is much improved over a month ago. It is one month to the day that she left, so I guess it is to be expected.


I think it's a combination of as you say the fact that your self-esteem was most likely put through the shredder by your WAW prior to the walk out. And that isn't part of being a faithful married man you desensitise your "Other females flirting with me" equipment.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> Like it
> 
> I think it's a combination of as you say the fact that your self-esteem was most likely put through the shredder by your WAW prior to the walk out. And that isn't part of being a faithful married man you desensitise your "Other females flirting with me" equipment.



That is true... used to get flirted with all the time at work, I just blew 'em off. Ten years of that has become a bit of a habit, I guess.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Had a bit of a setback last night, I guess. Yesterday morning she called because she had a blowout on her way to work, it had started sleeting and she asked if I could come pick her up and take her to work. I made my way through the sleet and freezing rain to a church where she had limped her car to. I picked her up and took her to work and she paid me part of what she owed me this month... the rest she said she needed to hold off on until she could get a new tire. I agreed.

The weather was supposed to continue getting worse. Being the dumba$$ I am, I offered to pick her up from work later and let her stay at the house overnight - if she couldn't get a ride back to wherever it is out in the styx that she is staying. She said she would let me know.

Well, last night I got a cryptic text that she had arranged for somewhere else to stay last night and not to worry. In other words, she was going to go home with some POSOM and stay with him overnight instead of with me. I didn't think it was possible, but it tore my heart out all over again. I went off. She admitted it was with "a co-worker of the male persuasion" but that she wasn't doing anything wrong and I was reading things into it. I countered with that was bs. I demanded that she come clean for once and admit that she had fallen for some POSOM and that is why she left. She continued to deny it, but her story changed from her male friend inviting her to stay to "my co-worker's mother took pity on me and offered me a place to stay" and that I have "turned it into something ugly and sordid". Anyone else notice the story shifting going on there? And putting it on me because I am thinking what anyone in my shoes would think? She would think the same thing if the roles were reversed!!

Also suddenly it is, "It is this attitude of yours that is a large reason I left". WTH? I didn't have and attitude until she stabbed me in the heart. History re-write? Check.

She then had the audacity to claim she never broke her vows. My jaw dropped open. I said, "If you never broke your vows, we wouldn't be having this conversation! Not only that, this is the 2nd time you have broken them, remember? I'm pretty sure just walking out on your spouse and telling them 'I don't love you anymore' is breaking pretty much all of the marriage vows!". I pointed out how everything she has done is straight out of the cheater's playbook, and asked her (again) if she wasn't doing anything wrong, why does she refuse to go to any kind of counseling - even IC? It seems to me someone would only act that way if they _know_ they are doing wrong and don't want anyone else to point it out to them. This caused her to stfu and just respond with 'Good Night'.

I replied that I have a mailbox and she can mail me the money she owes me... other than that I don't want to hear from her at all until she gets her own place - at which point she can get her crap out of my house (was real tempted to put it out at the road last night - the papers she signed the day before say she already had everything from the house... but that is an a$$hole kind of thing to do, and just isn't in me). I am through being nice to her - she just uses it to hurt me over and over. She knew damn well what that initial text would do to me. I have no idea why I let it bother me, but it did. She is a piece of crap and I want no part of her or anyone like her.

I am going full NC other than letting her get her junk and the last time I have to see her in February (when the divorce is final). All she had to do was treat me like she would want to be treated... but no, she takes too much pleasure in jerking my chain and trying to act like she is the victim. That is all I am taking of that.

Bring on the 2x4's...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

You only did everything wrong, so there's that


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Had a bit of a setback last night, I guess. Yesterday morning she called because she had a blowout on her way to work, it had started sleeting and she asked if I could come pick her up and take her to work. I made my way through the sleet and freezing rain to a church where she had limped her car to. I picked her up and took her to work and she paid me part of what she owed me this month... the rest she said she needed to hold off on until she could get a new tire. I agreed.
> 
> The weather was supposed to continue getting worse. Being the dumba$$ I am, I offered to pick her up from work later and let her stay at the house overnight - if she couldn't get a ride back to wherever it is out in the styx that she is staying. She said she would let me know.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear HB . It stings like a b*tch I know. Seeing similarities between my STBXW and yours. 

It's incredibly difficult to control your emotions in such a situation. I could tell you how you shouldn't have offered to help her, should have remained calm and dispassionate etc etc, but you already know this . 

NC would be for the best I think. Cut her off, she wants out and want's to be "alone" - give it to her. Any more of these problems, let her twist in the wind.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Conrad said:


> You only did everything wrong, so there's that


Hahahaha... indeed I did. :smthumbup:

The damnable thing is, I knew it before I did it. I hadn't realized I still cared that much, so I told myself that -since I won't go for R with her ever anyway - it was ok to help her. Wrong. She still knew exactly what buttons to push. Felt almost like getting betrayed all over again. Then I kept trying to point out where she is screwed in the head. Wrong. Doesn't work on them. Just made me feel like I was slamming my own head into a wall. The only thing I did right was not let her try to shift blame or re-write history... of course, I should have never been talking in the first place. So to quote RD- Meh. I deserve that bunk of 2x4's.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

WantWifeBack said:


> Sorry to hear HB . It stings like a b*tch I know. Seeing similarities between my STBXW and yours.
> 
> It's incredibly difficult to control your emotions in such a situation. I could tell you how you shouldn't have offered to help her, should have remained calm and dispassionate etc etc, but you already know this .
> 
> NC would be for the best I think. Cut her off, she wants out and want's to be "alone" - give it to her. Any more of these problems, let her twist in the wind.


I know it... should have broke out Conrad's "I'm not ok with talking about that" and got the h*ll off when she called about her tire.... wouldn't that have made her wonder? Hahahah!

I'm extremely irate with myself for falling into the trap.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Honorbound said:


> I know it... should have broke out Conrad's "I'm not ok with talking about that" and got the h*ll off when she called about her tire.... wouldn't that have made her wonder? Hahahah!
> 
> I'm extremely irate with myself for falling into the trap.


Brother... this is a process.

Simply get back up, dust yourself off and vow "never again"

She actually gets pleasure out of the encounters where you lose emotional control.

Have you read about fitness testing?

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18347-fitness-tests.html


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Brother... this is a process.
> 
> Simply get back up, dust yourself off and vow "never again"
> 
> ...


Indeed I have, and you are right. It has already been pointed out that my employers going out of business and me no longer providing for her was me 'failing' that fitness test... but, on the other hand, her being such a shallow, dishonorable POS after I supported her for so long is her failing mine.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Honorbound said:


> Indeed I have, and you are right. It has already been pointed out that my employers going out of business and me no longer providing for her was me 'failing' that fitness test... but, on the other hand, her being such a shallow, dishonorable POS after I supported her for so long is her failing mine.


When people show you who they are, believe them.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Conrad said:


> When people show you who they are, believe them.


Conrad spoketh and all of the people said... Amen.
:lol:


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Honorbound said:


> Conrad spoketh and all of the people said... Amen.
> :lol:


Chip helped me become the man I am today.

Amen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> I know it... should have broke out Conrad's "I'm not ok with talking about that" and got the h*ll off when she called about her tire.... wouldn't that have made her wonder? Hahahah!
> 
> I'm extremely irate with myself for falling into the trap.


What's done is done. Forgive yourself. As Conrad said:



> Simply get back up, dust yourself off and vow "never again"


If you do it again, I'm sure we'll drop an entire rain forest on you .

Stay classy HB, minor setback is behind you now.



> Conrad spoketh and all of the people said... Amen.


In Conrad We Trust.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Well, last night I got a cryptic text that she had arranged for somewhere else to stay last night and not to worry. In other words, she was going to go home with some POSOM and stay with him overnight instead of with me. I didn't think it was possible, but it tore my heart out all over again.


I am azteca's complete lack of surprise. I know you're hurting mate, but very soon you'll see how providential this incident was. Now you know exactly who and what you're dealing with.



> I am going full NC other than letting her get her junk and the last time I have to see her in February (when the divorce is final). All she had to do was treat me like she would want to be treated... but no, she takes too much pleasure in jerking my chain and trying to act like she is the victim. That is all I am taking of that.


Good.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> I am azteca's complete lack of surprise.


Nice Fight Club reference


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

I just got a message on google chat that "[email protected] wants to be able to chat with you". I told it 'No' -since there wasn't a 'Hell No' button.

She can email me if she wants to 'chat'...


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Honorbound said:


> I just got a message on google chat that "[email protected] wants to be able to chat with you". I told it 'No' -since there wasn't a 'Hell No' button.
> 
> She can email me if she wants to 'chat'...


Victories start off small. This is a big first step.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Well, I got more reinforcement that her leaving is a good thing.

Yesterday I found out that a bill (in her name) hasn't been paid in probably a year. She had told me a month ago that she was going to pay some on it, then catch it up. That was obviously not what she did. I sent her a text asking if she had paid any on it like she said. She said, "No, my checks have been too small to pay anything on it after paying the other bills I still owe. My last check on the 6th was only $XXX.xx."

Keep in mind, she just got promoted to GM where she works - which came with a nice raise. So when she told me that, I decided to check (don't ask how - I won't say). I found out her last check was quite a bit bigger than she was claiming. I told her she was lying, and why lie about something so stupid? I don't care if she keeps more out for herself as long as she takes care of her responsibilities. I also pointed out that lying about something so inconsequential was very similar to what my first Ex does (and did) all the time. She should be ashamed.

She didn't know I actually knew exactly how much it was, so she kept digging the hole even deeper. She said, "I am NOT lying. I can show you a pay stub to prove it!". I sighed and said, "Okay." 

You can probably tell I've played this particular game far more often than I've ever cared to.

Sure enough, she sent a picture of one of her pay stubs showing the lesser amount - with all of the account information blacked out.... as well as the date it was issued. :scratchhead:

I laughed and pointed that out. She said, "I printed these and blacked out the account info a few days ago when I had to carry my most recent pay stubs to the health department."

I sighed again, "You blacked out the date too - pretty sure they want to see that so they know they are _recent_ pay stubs." 

I then said, "You made $XXXX.XX on your last check - quite a bit higher than that one you are trying to feed me. Once again, I _do not care_ about you keeping more out for yourself as long as you take care of your responsibilities. I just don't understand why you keep insisting on lying about it. I don't deserve that. You really aren't the girl I knew - or thought I knew."

Then - and pay attention, this is what liars/cheaters do - she changed her story to, "If that is the case, I must have printed these out and went to the Health Department before the 6th... or maybe I didn't print out the most recent one like I thought I had."

WTF? She didn't remember either a) When she printed them out and went to the health department -or- b) She pulled up her payroll on the company computer - sometime this week like she originally claimed - and didn't see or print out the one for the 6th. Can I get a "Riiiiight"? This is HB's look of total disbelief. 

_She only gets one or two days off per week - usually just one these days since her promotion - so it is very unlikely she doesn't remember what day she ran an unusual errand - like going to the Health Department._

Once again I sighed and said, "Definitely a first Ex kind of thing to do" (they hate each other) "So.... why were the dates blacked out again? Right, there is absolutely no logical reason for them to be. Once again: Stop. Please. You are just embarrassing yourself."

That was the last thing said. She knows how pathological my first wife was... and how I hated being lied to continually. She used to deride her for it worse than I did. I'm a pretty sharp fellow. I am not easy to lie to. You really need all of your facts to line up to do it successfully... so if you are going to try, I would think they would only do it on something important... but no, they lie about the dumbest things. It is exasperating. Her doing that means, in my experience (which is, unfortunately, a lot), that she has been lying to me about most everything from the beginning. She has lied so much that it has become a habit - that is why they lie about stupid things that don't make a difference one way or another. Habit, pure and simple. I do have a lot of experience with this. I find that very sad.

Anyone who has been paying attention will also note that I didn't bother asking something obvious:

_*Why was she at the Health Department and needing to show them recent pay stubs?*_

There are only three reasons (in this area) for a woman without kids to do so.

1 - Getting a checkup on a pregnancy.

2 - Getting checked for STD's

3 - Getting on birth-control

_Any_ of those reasons, along with the stupid lie, just cements in my mind that her "I don't have feelings for _anyone_", "I am _not_ having an affair", and "I've kept my vows" are all complete, and total, b*ll$h*t... as I suspected all along.

It doesn't change anything, really, other than to prove my perception and intuition were on the money. It is indeed part of the cheater's script to make the one cheated on feel like they are totally off their rocker - and the cheater is totally innocent in all things and should be pitied for having to put up with such a suspicious, controlling spouse. :rofl:

It also proves she was attempting to keep me close for 'Plan B' by trying to stay 'friendly' and make me think she _wasn't_ sleeping with anyone yet - even though she knows I am about the last person that would go for R once she walked out.... I guess she was thinking _maybe_ she could play 'lost innocent victim' enough down the road to make me change my mind - White Knight Syndrome kryptonite. I don't know. I wouldn't. I don't forgive anyone more than once.

Really all she has done is hurt herself.... and make me damn glad she is gone. 

Today I am feeling like I dodged another bullet - I can't help but see her the same as my first XW now... and probably winding up in similar circumstances:

Chain smoking in a trailer somewhere, too large to get off the couch, and wondering why the whole universe keeps taking a dump on her.

Karma/Causality (call it what you will) is a b*tch. No matter where she ends up, I will still go to bed each night knowing I am an honorable man who did the best he could for those he cares about and treated others like he would want to be treated. She, and those like her, can all got to h*ll. They aren't taking me with them, and I now know I can't raise them up and make them into something they aren't. Good riddance.

I did text her one last time. I told her to bring some packing tape and boxes - so that I can clear out her stuff from my walk-in closet and put it in the garage (I don't want her in my house ever again - it gives the dog abandonment issues). I could just put it out there anyway, but much of it will get messed up if I do. I wouldn't feel right about that. I told her to let me know when she is bringing them so that I can make sure I am not here. I have no desire to see her. She can leave the stuff on the porch.

If I don't hear anything back, I will just throw it out there anyway (I really need the walk-in closet now for other things). I'll have to assume she doesn't care about it. If it isn't gone by the time D is final, I will donate most of it to Goodwill and dispose of the remainder.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Honorbound said:


> Today I am feeling like I dodged another bullet - I can't help but see her the same as my first XW now... and probably winding up in similar circumstances:


What do you think it is about you that attracts you to these?


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Conrad said:


> What do you think it is about you that attracts you to these?


White Knight Syndrome - I thought I could protect them, 'fix' them, and show them a better way. I did not. I merely sheltered them for a while so that they never had to face their own demons.

It is also that same compassionate, protective quality that draws _them_ to _me_. I know that now as well. Very similar to nice guy stuff, but I am not changing to please them. They are telling me what I want to hear. Repeatedly. That makes me easy to manipulate. It also makes me easy to discard when I am no longer convenient.

Shattered innocence always brought out more compassion than was healthy - for me, anyway. I've always known I would never be able to say, work at a children's hospital or similar, because I would be heartbroken - all the time. I admire the people that _can_ do that kind of job day after day, but I knew I never could. Yet I somehow thought I could help a beautiful, yet seriously damaged, young woman and not wind up heartbroken? Not only that, but on more than one occasion with different ones? You would have thought I would have learned after the first one, but I guess I figured she was an aberration - surely this next one wouldn't be that way too? Bah. It isn't them. They were true to their natures. Each _showed_ me who they really were on more than one occasion. I have just been a dumba$$. I always _listened to their words_ and gave them more weight than their actions.

I no longer think I can effect change in someone else - whether it is through words or deeds.

Not anymore. That is why I played out enough rope in that last conversation to show even a dumba$$ what he was really dealing with. As you can see, she blithely wrapped it around her neck and jumped. Didn't leave a whole lot of room for misinterpretation on my part, did it?

It just confirmed that I should never have put myself in this situation to begin with. 

I also now keep your quote in mind at all times:

"When someone _shows_ you who they really are - believe them."

:iagree:


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Honorbound said:


> Shattered innocence always brought out more compassion than was healthy - for me, anyway. I've always known I would never be able to say, work at a children's hospital or similar, because I would be heartbroken - all the time. I admire the people that _can_ do that kind of job day after day, but I knew I never could. Yet I somehow thought I could help a beautiful, yet seriously damaged, young woman and not wind up heartbroken? Not only that, but on more than one occasion with different ones? You would have thought I would have learned after the first one, but I guess I figured she was an aberration - surely this next one wouldn't be that way too? Bah. It isn't them. They were true to their natures. Each _showed_ me who they really were on more than one occasion. I have just been a dumba$$. I always _listened to their words_ and gave them more weight than their actions.


In other words, when you see someone hurting, you tend to personalize it. Take note of that and work on self-regulating it. I'm not saying don't feel their pain. Just don't take it on. Self-regulate that temptation - it's unhealthy for you.

As for the rest of this paragraph? A dead-letter perfect summary of your own pos tendencies in relationships.

You heard what you wanted to hear... internalized it, made it about you. They appealed to your ego and desire for strokes.

And, you fell for it.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Conrad said:


> In other words, when you see someone hurting, you tend to personalize it. Take note of that and work on self-regulating it. I'm not saying don't feel their pain. Just don't take it on. Self-regulate that temptation - it's unhealthy for you.
> 
> As for the rest of this paragraph? A dead-letter perfect summary of your own pos tendencies in relationships.
> 
> ...


That is it precisely. All of it. Fell for it three times now that I am aware of for a fact (the two X's and one XGF). In fact, some of the many GF's I parted ways with might have been because they _didn't_ have that 'shattered innocence' quality. 

I'll have to think about that.

I won't make any oaths this time that I won't fall for it again (some of them are excellent chameleons), but I will promise myself to remain _awake and aware_ as best I can.

To weed out the dopplegangers, I really need to come up with some type of 'dating stress test'. I'm not real sure how to 'simulate' minor adversity in a dating situation, but it would be nice to be able to spot someone's true character before making any commitments. Azteca pointed out that is often the only time you see someone's true self. I know STBXW2 maintained a fairly perfect facade for seven years. It was only when things got slightly tougher that it cracked again. 

Whether she maintained that because she genuinely wanted to _be_ that person (ie 'fake it 'til you make it), or whether it was because she didn't have any opportunity otherwise I will never know. It doesn't matter. She _did_ show me who she was after that first year and I took her back. Anything after that is my fault for letting that elephant get swept under the rug.

I guess I'll just have to settle for much longer courtships in the future - and keep my eyes more open than my ears.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Honorbound said:


> That is it precisely. All of it. Fell for it three times now that I am aware of for a fact (the two X's and one XGF). In fact, some of the many GF's I parted ways with might have been because they _didn't_ have that 'shattered innocence' quality.
> 
> I'll have to think about that.
> 
> ...


Stay at 50k.

When they show you things, believe them.

Also, keep in mind that disordered folks cannot "keep it up". They can give you the initial 100 day rush where they seem perfect, but their insecurities take over around Day #100 and the Fitness Testing begins in earnest.

Many times, rescuers have already "decided" that "this is the one", "this is the soul mate"... "this is the one I cannot live without"... so when they get "shown" something different, they dismiss it.

Big problems occur after that.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Stay at 50k.
> 
> When they show you things, believe them.
> 
> ...


Amen... although I know some can go over 100 days, but your point is still valid. It will show through eventually - make sure you give everyone enough time to do so if they are going to. 

Also, probably wouldn't hurt to give them the _opportunity_ to do so as well.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Well, I had to meet with STBXW2 this morning to get the rest of the money she owes me. For some reason, the rocket scientist got a checking account without checks. :scratchhead:

Yeah.

Anyway, I made sure I was looking good - tight shirt showing off the cut physique, new jeans that make my a$$ look good, etc. The first thing I saw when I went in to her work was a grungy looking pizza-delivery dork talking to her. I gave him my copyrighted 'I could rip your head off and crap down your throat - and you know it' grin©. His voice trailed off and he quickly looked away and found something else to do. I grinned even bigger. Sometimes it is nice looking so intimidating.

She was standing there with the money in her hand and giving me her 'sad' look. I just smiled real big and said, "Hello". I took the money out of her hand as she gave me a sad "hello" back. I then said, "Thanks!" with a big smile and turned my back on her and walked out the door. She looked even sadder and gave a sad "You're welcome" to my back as I was heading out the door.

I'm guessing she was hoping to 'talk' or see me sad too. Oh well, sorry to disappoint her (not really).

That went well. Now that I know what I am dealing with, I know how this game is played. I'm guessing the grass isn't looking so green anymore.

Oh, well... I tried to tell her a month and a half ago. Too bad that I now know her leaving was a good thing... for me, anyway. 

I'm supposed to go out tonight with a very pretty 35 year old. I am ready. After I caught STBXW2 in that stupid lie last week (which confirmed to me that my suspicions were correct about an affair), I no longer feel compelled to keep my vows - she has freed me from them.

Looking forward to tonight.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Well, I had to meet with STBXW2 this morning to get the rest of the money she owes me. For some reason, the rocket scientist got a checking account without checks. :scratchhead:
> 
> Yeah.
> 
> ...


:smthumbup:

If you get the chance to get laid, go for it brother. I think you're ready to do that now without the emotional sh*t storm that could follow if you're not ready. I know because I'm at that place too.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

The date got pushed back a night, but went even better than I ever expected. She was great! Confident with herself, intelligent, gorgeous - nowhere close to needing a White Knight to save her. 

We hit it off immediately.

It was actually strange for me... it felt like we knew each other already. I don't know how to explain it... I'm not spouting off oneitis claptrap. I do not believe in that. I just know I have been on many(many) first dates in my life (including several in the last couple of months), but have never felt so... at ease... on one. 

Almost like meeting an old friend.

An incredibly sexy old friend who keeps touching your hand and arm while staring deep in your eyes and laughing at all the right spots. One who can hold her own in an intellectual conversation.

Wow. I was _not_ expecting that.

We ended up staying out all night and closing two different places down. I didn't drag myself home until after 3AM - at which point the obligatory "Let me know when you make it home, okay?" (the weather was bad) turned into a two hour conversation on... everything.

So I only slept an hour that night.

No sex... which, contrary to PUA code, I actually respect. I know I can be charming. Sometimes _really_ charming - but if I can talk them into sex on the first meeting I usually no longer want it. Don't get me wrong - there have been exceptions to that rule, but it is generally how I am. If everyone involved knows that is all it is, I don't have a problem with it. Most, though, DO want more than just that... and I'm not willing to make that commitment or lie to them just for sex. I don't barter for it.

I have to admit, though, that I admire the ones confident enough in themselves to resist. After all of the touching and kissing going on, we both knew the desire was there. 

Once again... wow.

She and I have talked and laughed many times over the last two days - and have another date planned for Thursday. I'm looking forward to it, but I AM keeping my eyes/ears open - surely I can't be _this_ lucky.

No matter how it goes, I'm determined to stay true to myself - no more settling or saving. I will be careful and not jump into anything. Interestingly, she is acting/saying the same.

She wasn't expecting this either.

I have to admit, I've been grinning ear to ear. My 9th anniversary came and went yesterday with barely a thought - maybe just a smirk. :smthumbup:

Wish me well, fellow TAMers. I've got to find out how deep this rabbit hole goes...


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> The date got pushed back a night, but went even better than I ever expected. She was great! Confident with herself, intelligent, gorgeous - nowhere close to needing a White Knight to save her.
> 
> We hit it off immediately.
> 
> ...


Good job HB  :smthumbup:

Clearly you've got your head screwed on right - and she is also aware of where you stand.

Good luck on Thursday brother


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HB,

Sounds like a live wire.

Keep us in the loop - and be careful around Day #100


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Conrad said:


> HB,
> 
> Sounds like a live wire.
> 
> Keep us in the loop - and be careful around Day #100


You know I will to both of those. Definitely going to keep my eyes open and my wits about me... well, I'll keep my eyes open. 

She knows I am going to school - so not after my wallet (unless she is playing the long game). She bought as many drinks for me as I bought for her - and since she had beer and I had bourbon, I'm pretty sure I came out ahead on that.

Definitely some Limerence going on with both of us... so I know the wits are the first thing to go. It's a heady and totally unexpected event - of course, I guess it always is. Still, I'd be lying if I said it wasn't enjoyable. The timing is a nice bonus... if nothing else, it will keep me from getting down over the next week or two. A week ago I was wondering if I'd be okay on my anniversary. When it came and went with barely a notice I had my answer. 

You're damn skippy I was okay. 

I won't rush, though. I'm going to watch and listen. I will not fall in the same traps again. So far, so good.

Until I see something that makes me want to get off, I am going to enjoy the ride. :smthumbup:


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Mirroring is normal, to some extent.

But if she mirrors you so well that you don't even notice it, and she seems to be perfect, a soulmate,etc...then your crazy-dar should go off.

Like Conrad said, tread carefully. Have fun, but don't get sucked in


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> Mirroring is normal, to some extent.
> 
> But if she mirrors you so well that you don't even notice it, and she seems to be perfect, a soulmate,etc...then your crazy-dar should go off.
> 
> Like Conrad said, tread carefully. Have fun, but don't get sucked in



Actually, it's not mirroring this time.... I have been watching for that, since that is how the last one fooled me. Told me _everything_ I wanted to hear. With this one there's some friction on various things (different opinions, viewpoints, etc)... enough to make this thoroughly enjoyable so far. I don't know if there are any game-stoppers yet... I'm entirely willing to walk away if there are.

But I do agree and appreciate the cautionary warning, 3Strikes.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Honorbound said:


> I don't know if there are any game-stoppers yet... _*I'm entirely willing to walk away if there are.*_


This is a beautiful place to be. Stay there. For life


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## Daisy2714 (Sep 22, 2013)

HB,
I feel a bit out of place here in this thread because it has been pretty male dominated. I feel like I’m stepping into a man cave and not sure if I belong. However, you have shown me kindness. I want to return that to you.

It goes without saying that I am so very sorry for your pain and betrayal. You do well to surround yourself with the men on this forum for strength, advice, and comradeship. Take the advice but leave the bitterness. I’ve read your entire thread. I know I will have a different perspective by virtue of the fact I’m a woman. I offer it to you because of the kindness you have shown me. Take it for what it is worth.

You are certainly a White Knight. It’s good that you see this and you accurately identify “Damsels in Distress” as your Kryptonite. I am concerned that you do not yet know how to really identify those Damsels. Please be careful. You sound so hungry for that deep, meaningful, relationship and while on the surface you are flying high, I’m afraid there is still a lot of hurt and pain that is clouding your judgment. You are still broken, still feeling the effects of that poisonous Kryptonite. Any woman you meet will pick up on this. You need time to simply heal.

Becoming emotionally attached to someone (anyone) while you are re-bounding is going to cause pain. Everyone carries baggage. Your friend is no exception. You will discover that baggage and feel compelled to carry it for her before too long. Don’t get me wrong. I want good things for you. I want you to eventually find your princess and live happily ever after. 

You are a rare breed. There’s no need to hurry. There is something very attractive about a man who isn’t afraid to be a man. A man who will protect, lead and really cherish his woman. When you add a good sense of humor and an easy going attitude to that, you will attract most women. It’s that whole White Knight thing. It’s both your strength and your weakness. 

My first husband died in an alcohol related car accident. He was an abusive man and when he died we had been separated for several months. By the time he died, I truly believed I hated him. I remember seeing him the morning he died and just praying silently that he would disappear. Not that I wished him dead or even that I wished anything bad to happen. Just that I never wanted to have to see him again.

When I got the phone call he was dead I went into shock. I don’t know how to express it but suddenly I was facing an onslaught of emotions I didn’t realize were still there. I got through the funeral and moved on with my life. I didn’t really mourn much after that. His passing made life easier for me. Six years after he died, while I was still fairly newly married to my current husband, I unexpectedly began to mourn his loss. I went through a period of sadness, bad dreams, insomnia, unpredictable crying, mourning what might have been but never was.

I tell you this to illustrate how deeply our emotions run. We lie to ourselves over and over to protect ourselves from pain. Yet it’s still there. Until we face it, it doesn’t go away. I want you to take time to face your pain. I want you to really be okay so that when you enter your next relationship, you won’t sabotage it and you will care about yourself enough to not be taken in by those damsels you find so attractive. 

The next couple of months will be very hard. Don’t hide from it. Don’t use another relationship as a band-aide. Go through it. There are a lot of men here who obviously have been where you are and this is a good place for you to rest. That’s what your spirit needs right now.

I do wish you every happiness. You sound like a wonderful person. Life is not always fair. Sometimes it seems that it rains the hardest on the best of us. The real truth is that for the most part, life is what we choose to make of it. Be patient, your time will come. 

As I said, I know it’s a different perspective. Take what you can use and leave the rest. You haven't updated in a week. I do hope all is well with you.

Best regards,
Daisy


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Daisy2714 said:


> HB,
> I feel a bit out of place here in this thread because it has been pretty male dominated. I feel like I’m stepping into a man cave and not sure if I belong. However, you have shown me kindness. I want to return that to you.
> 
> It goes without saying that I am so very sorry for your pain and betrayal. You do well to surround yourself with the men on this forum for strength, advice, and comradeship. Take the advice but leave the bitterness. I’ve read your entire thread. I know I will have a different perspective by virtue of the fact I’m a woman. I offer it to you because of the kindness you have shown me. Take it for what it is worth.
> ...


This is truly beautiful.

I don't see how it's a different perspective, but no matter - it's truly from your heart.


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## Daisy2714 (Sep 22, 2013)

Conrad said:


> This is truly beautiful.
> 
> I don't see how it's a different perspective, but no matter - it's truly from your heart.


Conrad,

In some of the more recent posts, HB has been encouraged to take every opportunity to "get laid". I'm suggesting that he not do that. People like HB do not get laid without becoming emotionally attached. That is my concern. That is why I say it's a different perspective. I'm actually suggesting that he back off from this (or any) relationship for the time being. It's only been a few weeks since his life was turned upside-down. Going and and shooting some pool, doing things to help relax (not sex-related), focusing on school, those are healthy actions for him right now. Getting emotionally involved with someone is not.

BTW... I've really appreciated reading some of your posts. Thank you for your kind words.

Daisy


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Daisy2714 said:


> HB,
> I feel a bit out of place here in this thread because it has been pretty male dominated. I feel like I’m stepping into a man cave and not sure if I belong. However, you have shown me kindness. I want to return that to you.
> 
> It goes without saying that I am so very sorry for your pain and betrayal. You do well to surround yourself with the men on this forum for strength, advice, and comradeship. Take the advice but leave the bitterness. I’ve read your entire thread. I know I will have a different perspective by virtue of the fact I’m a woman. I offer it to you because of the kindness you have shown me. Take it for what it is worth.
> ...


Daisy,

Thank you. Judging by my reaction to your wonderful post, you are correct - the pain _is_ still there. Your eloquent and empathetic writing tends to have that effect on me.

<<HB dries his eyes... again>>

I didn't just feel _mine_ while reading it, either (I'm so sorry, Daisy)... :'(

She and I had put a 'hold' (well, more like a 'slow') on our new relationship just yesterday - for precisely the reasons you describe. I don't want to rush anything and I felt like I was. She felt it too. I have to make sure I'm _not_ following my standard impulses. She deserves more than being a 'rebound' as well. She seems to understand and wholeheartedly agrees. She's been single for seven years now and seems to have a better grasp of the potential pitfalls than I do. Neither of us have plans to go anywhere. We'll see how it goes.

Thankfully, I'm through that initial chemical rush and am back to thinking like myself. 

I'm much better than a couple of months ago, but I am aware there is still a... 'hole', I guess. One I was subconsciously filling with her. Was it to more easily get through my anniversary and the holidays? I don't know. I'd like to think I am not that shallow, even subconsciously, but the truth is our subconscious doesn't care what anyone thinks of it. I could very well have done just that. I tell myself that she hasn't been the only smart, pretty woman I have gone out with in the last two months... and - since I didn't feel anything more than friendly companionship with them - it might be something more. I simply don't know.

Thanks to the folks here, I do know to give it plenty of time to find out. For her part, she wants both of us to know each other and ourselves better as well. Neither of us want to get hurt again or rush things. We'll take it a day at a time and see where it leads... testing the ground with every step. What else can we do?

I have invested enough in my own sense of self to know that I _am_ entirely willing to walk away if I see any red flags. I am determined to not repeat the White Knight pattern.

You know you are welcome to visit my 'man-cave' anytime you wish, Daisy. I truly value your thoughtfulness and insight. I am honored.

... just ignore the mess. 

Sincerely,
HB


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Hope all is well with you fella


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Everything is going very well! My D will be final a week from tomorrow. I am really looking forward to that.

The girl I met on FB and I are still seeing each other and taking it a day at a time. We've been striving not to rush, but we do love each other. There's been a few flags and fitness tests, but nothing major and each one - after my obligatory "I'm not ok with that" (thanks Conrad) - we discussed and she saw where I was coming from. It's kind of easy when your only expectations for staying in the relationship are to be treated like they would want to be treated. No double standards or cake eating. No fighting over the victim chair or racing around the drama triangle. She knows that no matter what I feel for her, I WILL walk away if that simple precept isn't met. And it really is that simple. I demonstrated that once with the most major red flag. I know it surprised her, but also made her respect me more. The boundary pushing came to a halt after that. 

The only time I've heard from the STBXW in the last month and a half was on her 30th birthday on January 4th. She had once again failed to get what she needed to just mail me my payment, so she texted and asked if she could drop it off in my mailbox. Her texts were long worded fishing expeditions about what she had been up to with a smattering of wondering about me (No, I don't think it was a coincidence that she was doing all of this on her birthday). I only replied in one word responses (Yes, No, and OK). I ignored her commentary and any inquiries about me. She finally got the message that I didn't care what she was up to and I wasn't going to indulge her nosing into my life, so when she texted that the check was out there I did say, "OK. Happy Birthday".

"Thank You" was the last thing I've heard from her.

I will say that reading Zillard's original thread was a tremendous help. I highly recommend everyone read it. I know I've been a lot more Zen after seeing the tremendous growth he made as a man. It is a font of useful knowledge.

I'll update again if anything significant happens... I appreciate you thinking of me Aztec.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Honorbound said:


> (thanks Conrad)


You're welcome


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

You're a mans man Honorbound

Be Well
Be Safe
Be Happy

55


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

just got it 55 said:


> You're a mans man Honorbound
> 
> Be Well
> Be Safe
> ...


Thanks, 55! I know I have grown a lot thanks to you folks here. You all have been a tremendous asset whether through your advice, making me look harder at myself, or experiencing your stories and knowing I wasn't alone. This site truly is a godsend.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

What a great update to read first thing on a Monday morning, Honorbound. I'm genuinely happy for you. I would say best of luck in the future to you, but we make our own luck. It's no accident. And from your update, it's clear you know that too.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Well, as of this morning I am once again a free, single man! Everything went smoothly in court - She didn't show - and I was out of there within thirty minutes. I won't say there wasn't a touch of sadness - it's hard to lose your best friend of ten years - but for the most part I am excited for the future.

She did finally come by and drop some boxes off Friday along with my check. She kept wanting to engage me in conversation but I told her I just didn't care. She fired me as her friend when she fired me as her husband. She looked like she was about to cry, but she didn't. I gave her a few of her things that she needed at the time and she left.

I also cut Facebook girl loose Friday night. She tried to claim one of her ex's was her 'Best Friend'. I had already asked her if she would be ok with my ex being my 'Best Friend'. She said no... I said, then why would you expect me to be ok with it? She agreed - at the time. But sure enough, she started spouting it again Friday night when he showed up at the bar we were at. I just shook my head. It was obvious he was trying the oldest Beta male game of all, trying to 'friend' himself out of the 'friend zone'. Pathetic. He sat at the end of our table like an unwanted third wheel. After she had a few, I looked up and saw her running her fingers through some strange guys hair! WTF? I told her I was not ok with that and she blew up and started calling me controlling.

"I was just telling him he looked like Eddie Munster"

"No", I said, "You were telling him 'I want to fvck you' by running your damn hands through his hair. Every guy in here will tell you the same. It would be like me running my hands over another woman's a$$ right in front of you - and just as disrespectful."

She kept going off and calling me 'controlling'. I laughed and started getting my things together to just leave her there. How's that for controlling? 

She then made the mistake of mouthing off about me to the third wheel sitting at the end of the table. So I stepped around the table and asked him if he had something to say. He bowed all up, stuck his face inches from mine and started running his mouth about "You're damn right I do! She is my friend and...".

He didn't get any further. I taught him why it is a bad idea to stick your nose into a real man's relationship. I don't understand people who have no concept of "treat others like you want to be treated", or honor, or respect. I have no use for those people.

If he had just kept his mouth shut, I'd have let him have her... and he wouldn't have been picking his teeth up off the floor. I hate being forced into those kinds of situations. It makes me angry... but sometimes you have to let the caveman out in order to get respect. If you don't, you will be run over the rest of your life. You might all say I should have just walked away, and you would have a point.... it is just not in me to do that when I have been disrespected so much. I would feel like a coward.

She called me every name in the book later that night when I told her we were through... and that she just compounded her problem by setting up her ex to get his a$$ beat. She too should have just kept her mouth shut and let me walk out the door instead of dragging him into it. She should have never allowed him to be around in the first place. I've been used to run off ex's before, and I don't like it.

She knew she was in the wrong, but is totally incapable of admitting to anything when she has been drinking. I walked away and have ignored her entreaty's for another chance since. I have no use for anyone even capable of that level of disrespect. 

Oh well, it was fun while it lasted I reckon. I've tried to follow Zillard's example and be more Zen, but I guess the 'smite thee severely about the face' part of my White Knight Syndrome is still there. I don't know any other way to be, even though I hate the necessity of it.

**Edit: Before anyone asks, the guy I fought was 6'4 or 6'5 and outweighed me by at least 50 pounds. I don't fight people who have no chance to defend themselves. That wouldn't be honorable. This guy asked for and deserved it in every way.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Can finally post what I look like, I reckon:


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Totally understand punching your way out of that.

Just don't end up in jail.

Remember the times we live in.

BTW, she'll be contacting you within 2-3 weeks.

You weren't there to "run off the ex".

You were there to "keep the ex as Plan B"


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Totally understand punching your way out of that.
> 
> Just don't end up in jail.
> 
> ...


Yep... That was my exact thought, Conrad. I'll actually be surprised if I don't hear from her within the week.

... I'm not ok with that, either.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Good one.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Well, it didn't even go a week. She texted me last night. I told her I wished her well, but had no desire to try and work things out. 

I had another text this morning saying she was sad about the situation. I'm not exactly thrilled with it, but I know the best thing is to walk away. 

She has trouble accepting certain concepts that most people just... know. She refuses to accept that running her fingers through some strange guy's hair in a bar while with me was disrespectful. I even sent her links and quotes from websites on things like 'Signs a Woman Is Interested In You' where 'touching' a man while talking to him was prominent in the list. No matter what her reasons were, it told him a certain thing and was offensive to me. I was not ok with it. Instead of listening to my reasons, she made the situation worse by flying off the reservation about it. She did the same thing when I explained that was why I had no interest in getting back together.

I was half tempted to see if she would create an account on here and each of us post our viewpoints. I'd be interested in getting everyone else's input on who, or what, is wrong. I don't see her willing to do that though - she seems incapable of admitting to much of anything, no matter the proof, logic involved, or who tells her otherwise.

That is frustrating in the extreme... so this is me walking away.


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

Abundant living, bro. You've got a lot more plates to spin. This particular plate needs to drop.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

helolover said:


> Abundant living, bro. You've got a lot more plates to spin. This particular plate needs to drop.


Yeah... I had three different ones call in the last two days all saying, "you deserve better". Lol. You'd think I was wearing a sign. I just agreed and left things open with them but didn't engage further - I'm more concerned with studying for one of my certification exams at the moment than I am dating or anything else.

I hate burning bridges (or dropping plates), but sometimes that is definitely the best thing to do.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

honorbound said:


> well, it didn't even go a week. She texted me last night. I told her i wished her well, but had no desire to try and work things out.
> 
> I had another text this morning saying she was sad about the situation. I'm not exactly thrilled with it, but i know the best thing is to walk away.
> 
> ...


Stop trying to convince people.

Codependence needs to be torn out at the root.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Stop trying to convince people.
> 
> Codependence needs to be torn out at the root.


That is true... I know that is part of it. I'm aware. A big part is also curiosity. It puzzles me how certain minds work (or don't). I wonder what is going on in there, so I'll lay out logic and see what the response is. It's fascinating and frustrating at the same time. :scratchhead:


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Honorbound said:


> That is true... I know that is part of it. I'm aware. A big part is also curiosity. It puzzles me how certain minds work (or don't). I wonder what is going on in there, so I'll lay out logic and see what the response is. It's fascinating and frustrating at the same time. :scratchhead:


Let it go.

Tell them what you're ok with - and what you're not ok with.

Observe their reaction.

The wheat will separate itself from the chaff.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Let it go.
> 
> Tell them what you're ok with - and what you're not ok with.
> 
> ...


Aye... didn't take near the 100 days, either


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Honorbound said:


> Aye... didn't take near the 100 days, either


I'll say. LOL


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## Mansman (Dec 27, 2012)

After your first wife cheated, you married a woman you met when she was 16 and married her when she was 21? And you're surprised that she doesn't want to stay married? rare you the guy from Lolita? I'm not clear why you would marry someone so immature and expect a different result. I think you need to meet someone close to your own age and not in a bar.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Mansman said:


> After your first wife cheated, you married a woman you met when she was 16 and married her when she was 21? And you're surprised that she doesn't want to stay married? rare you the guy from Lolita? I'm not clear why you would marry someone so immature and expect a different result. I think you need to meet someone close to your own age and not in a bar.


Are you the four-hooved side-kick from Shrek? Learn to read. I expected no more from her than I do from anyone, to understand what honor is. She is the only woman I've ever been out with that was that much younger than me, and for the most part it was good for many years. I did not plan on falling for her, I did not even want too, I just did. As far as age, I got married at 19 the first time and I had no problem keeping my vows... So what's your point? Oh yeah, you don't have one. Since that is the case, and you have nothing constructive to add, why are you posting at all?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Honorbound said:


> Are you the four-hooved side-kick from Shrek? Learn to read. I expected no more from her than I do from anyone, to understand what honor is. She is the only woman I've ever been out with that was that much younger than me, and for the most part it was good for many years. I did not plan on falling for her, I did not even want too, I just did. As far as age, I got married at 19 the first time and I had no problem keeping my vows... So what's your point? Oh yeah, you don't have one. Since that is the case, and you have nothing constructive to add, why are you posting at all?


It's not about you brother


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## Mansman (Dec 27, 2012)

1) I think you have anger management issues, and
2) you have a tendency to meet women who are prone to being unfaithful

You do remember the definition of insanity, don't you?


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Mansman said:


> 1) I think you have anger management issues, and
> 2) you have a tendency to meet women who are prone to being unfaithful
> 
> You do remember the definition of insanity, don't you?


Not Helpful

If you want to help choose another path

55


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## Mansman (Dec 27, 2012)

Look, I think he should find a woman closer in age ( certainly not more than 10 years younger) and one who is not a flirt. I believe you can tell the cheating types by how flirtatious they are and, to an extent, whether they stay friends with their exes. And no drama queens.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mansman said:


> Look, I think he should find a woman closer in age ( certainly not more than 10 years younger) and one who is not a flirt. I believe you can tell the cheating types by how flirtatious they are and, to an extent, whether they stay friends with their exes. And no drama queens.


He's just waking up.

Give him a break.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

It's funny. This girl did this to get the reaction she got. 

She likes the drama. 

Stay away from her.

Edit: I have no problem with you knocking his teeth out; some dudes deserve it. 

What I don't like (you being a TAM brother) is letting this chick manipulate you.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Ceegee said:


> It's funny. This girl did this to get the reaction she got.
> 
> She likes the drama.
> 
> ...


Actually, she was trying to manipulate me to just sit there quietly like a good little Beta. Knocking his teeth out was my message to HIM, not her. Me leaving her there was my message to her. I refuse to be manipulated like that. I did like Conrad said - I told her what I was and wasn't ok with. Best friends with an Ex? Not ok with. She initially agreed and then changed it up that night.

Also, it's not that all of the women I meet are cheaters. I've been out with a _lot_ of women in my life... most of whom did _not_ cheat on me. The problem is _me_. I pick beautiful, broken women to _fall_ for. I feel a nearly overpowering urge to help and protect them. I'm aware of this. That doesn't necessarily make them cheaters, either, but it does set me up in the Protector corner of the Drama Triangle right off the bat. I don't want to be in it at all anymore. That's why this relationship lasted less than two months - I was watching for those signs. EX2 is the only woman I've ever dated that was more than ten years younger than me. She pursued me, not the other way around. You have the total wrong idea with the stupid Lolita comment (which was a direct personal attack - and uncalled for)... I'm not prejudiced, I've dated women older than me, younger than me, and the same age as me. It's the _type_ that trips me up - beautiful, but broken and hurt.(btw, Ex2 was not flirty or friends with her ex... EX2 was/is just immature). 

I just love women... sue me. It's just I never felt that 'spark' with any of the well adjusted ones I've dated. Hell, I went out with one of them last night. Great girl, great job, beautiful, intelligent, has loved me for many years now... There was just no 'spark' when we dated before. She didn't _need_ me. I figured I'd take her out last night and see if there really _should_ be something there. There might be.... too soon to tell. It is something I know I need to work on.

I know what to look for. I've never dated overly flirty women or easy ones. That's not my thing. Now if you have some way of determining which of the other ones will cheat 10-15 years down the road but stay faithful until then, I'd love to hear about it. We all would. It's not like any of them wear a sign or a clock with a timer.:scratchhead:

You could make millions with that information.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Honorbound said:


> Actually, she was trying to manipulate me to just sit there quietly like a good little Beta. Knocking his teeth out was my message to HIM, not her. Me leaving her there was my message to her. I refuse to be manipulated like that. I did like Conrad said - I told her what I was and wasn't ok with. Best friends with an Ex? Not ok with. She initially agreed and then changed it up that night.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You like a challenge. 

Me too. 

Be careful with the ones who are.


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## ICLH (Dec 26, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Actually, she was trying to manipulate me to just sit there quietly like a good little Beta. Knocking his teeth out was my message to HIM, not her. Me leaving her there was my message to her. I refuse to be manipulated like that. I did like Conrad said - I told her what I was and wasn't ok with. Best friends with an Ex? Not ok with. She initially agreed and then changed it up that night.
> 
> Also, it's not that all of the women I meet are cheaters. I've been out with a _lot_ of women in my life... most of whom did _not_ cheat on me. The problem is _me_. I pick beautiful, broken women to _fall_ for. I feel a nearly overpowering urge to help and protect them. I'm aware of this. That doesn't necessarily make them cheaters, either, but it does set me up in the Protector corner of the Drama Triangle right off the bat. I don't want to be in it at all anymore. That's why this relationship lasted less than two months - I was watching for those signs. EX2 is the only woman I've ever dated that was more than ten years younger than me. She pursued me, not the other way around. You have the total wrong idea with the stupid Lolita comment (which was a direct personal attack - and uncalled for)... I'm not prejudiced, I've dated women older than me, younger than me, and the same age as me. It's the _type_ that trips me up - beautiful, but broken and hurt.(btw, Ex2 was not flirty or friends with her ex... EX2 was/is just immature).
> 
> ...


Just a thought and something an IC session brought to my attention. You mention that "spark." My therapist told me the one's that you are intensely drawn to are the one's that you should stay away from. There is something in you subconscious that is drawing you to them but it's all for the wrong reasons. An example - the broken beautiful women that you end up going into protective mode over. That "spark" you speak of isn't the healthy kind of "spark" you consciously should be seeking. It's your unconscious luring you into another relationship that you will try to end up fixing to make up for the last broken one. Does any of this make sense? Basically, the therapist told me if I'm intensely attracted to someone run in the opposite direction. It's kind of like the women that continually jump from one physically abusive relationship to the next. Most relationships don't start out with physical abuse. Do you think these battered women know they are going into another abusive relationship once they get out of one? No, but their subconscious does. They are confused when they feel that "spark." It convinces them it must be right. My cousin is a good example of this cycle. Anyway, just a word of caution. Happy V Day.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

ICLH said:


> Just a thought and something an IC session brought to my attention. You mention that "spark." My therapist told me the one's that you are intensely drawn to are the one's that you should stay away from. There is something in you subconscious that is drawing you to them but it's all for the wrong reasons. An example - the broken beautiful women that you end up going into protective mode over. That "spark" you speak of isn't the healthy kind of "spark" you consciously should be seeking. It's your unconscious luring you into another relationship that you will try to end up fixing to make up for the last broken one. Does any of this make sense? Basically, the therapist told me if I'm intensely attracted to someone run in the opposite direction. It's kind of like the women that continually jump from one physically abusive relationship to the next. Most relationships don't start out with physical abuse. Do you think these battered women know they are going into another abusive relationship once they get out of one? No, but their subconscious does. They are confused when they feel that "spark." It convinces them it must be right. My cousin is a good example of this cycle. Anyway, just a word of caution. Happy V Day.


LOL... that makes perfect sense. I'd already figured out (thanks to the folks here) that the 'spark' probably _was_ that protective instinct. What is funny, though, is how accurate you are. There were no initial signs with this last one. Not one.... but somehow my subconscious picked up on it.

Give your therapist a thumbs up from me. He rocks! :smthumbup:


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## ICLH (Dec 26, 2013)

My therapist better rock. She charges $75.00 an hour.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Well...

How sad would it be if you had to run from the women that you were intensely attracted to. 

Get to know all your parts and you'll know how to accept these women.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Ceegee said:


> Well...
> 
> How sad would it be if you had to run from the women that you were intensely attracted to.
> 
> Get to know all your parts and you'll know how to accept these women.


Right... I'd at least have to find out. Simple curiosity would require me to.

... but, the key is always being willing to walk away if it isn't right. No matter how hard.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Well, as of this morning I am once again a free, single man! Everything went smoothly in court - She didn't show - and I was out of there within thirty minutes.


Sometimes when you hear a couple are divorcing, you don't know what to say. In your case - Congratulations!



> I also cut Facebook girl loose Friday night. She tried to claim one of her ex's was her 'Best Friend'. I had already asked her if she would be ok with my ex being my 'Best Friend'. She said no... I said, then why would you expect me to be ok with it? She agreed - at the time.


Ahh. The old One-rule-for-you-and-another-rule-for-me ploy. It never works in the long run. To elaborate; of course, as a couple there will be slight variances within the relationship as you make allowances for gender and differences in your individual characters. But externally ,how each of you relate to other people outside your relationship should be exactly the same. Avoids grey areas and the resulting confusion.



> After she had a few, I looked up and saw her running her fingers through some strange guys hair! WTF? I told her I was not ok with that and she blew up and started calling me controlling.


Huge red flags. Deploy ejector seat. Walk away unscathed.

I have to agree with Ceegee. Though we're all a little old school when it comes to how a man should handle himself, in these times you are risking your liberty. Just not worth it. It was a situation she was in the centre of. She loves drama. Just learn to walk away, manipulators are not worth a second of your time.



Honorbound said:


> She has trouble accepting certain concepts that most people just... know. She refuses to accept that running her fingers through some strange guy's hair in a bar while with me was disrespectful.


She knows what she's doing and asking of you is wrong. She KNOWS it. She just wants to do it. And she wants you to be okay with it. Your value systems and 'mutually accepted' standards of behaviour are incompatible. If she hasn't figured out running your fingers through a man's hair is highly sensual and not the sort of thing you engage in while your boyfriend stands by - well, it's not your job to help her figure it out. It's not your job to fix her.

Value your self and your time by not wasting anymore of it on her or people like her, mate. Time is the most precious commodity you have.



ICLH said:


> Just a thought and something an IC session brought to my attention. You mention that "spark." My therapist told me the one's that you are intensely drawn to are the one's that you should stay away from. There is something in you subconscious that is drawing you to them but it's all for the wrong reasons. An example - *the broken beautiful women that you end up going into protective mode over. That "spark" you speak of isn't the healthy kind of "spark" you consciously should be seeking.*


Good stuff ICLH. I know you know this, Honorbound, but the spark you're looking for, the healthy spark is "Desire"; I can't get enough of you. I only want to be with you. I choose to be with you, but if need be, I can survive without you. 

Interesting that you mention: 

Great girl, great job, beautiful, intelligent, has loved me for many years now... There was just no 'spark' when we dated before. *She didn't need me.* I figured I'd take her out last night and see if there really should be something there. There might be.... too soon to tell. It is something I know I need to work on.

As a non-Knight I would find the not needing me an attractive trait. You're not there to rescue her, fix her or lead her from temptation. But you already know this.



Honorbound said:


> That is true... I know that is part of it. I'm aware. A big part is also curiosity. It puzzles me how certain minds work (or don't). I wonder what is going on in there, so I'll lay out logic and see what the response is. It's fascinating and frustrating at the same time. :scratchhead:


This is your Achilles Heel - your curiosity. You want to know how these beautiful, broken women work, what makes them tick... so you can fix them. You invest all that time trying to figure them out and then once you know (or think you know) you don't have it in you to walk away. You stick around because these beautiful, broken women _need_ you. And with the relationship built with inherent design flaws it has a tendency to founder and sink when it hits stormy waters.

Maybe. Does that make sense?


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> Sometimes when you hear a couple are divorcing, you don't know what to say. In your case - Congratulations!
> 
> Ahh. The old One-rule-for-you-and-another-rule-for-me ploy. It never works in the long run. To elaborate; of course, as a couple there will be slight variances within the relationship as you make allowances for gender and differences in your individual characters. But externally ,how each of you relate to other people outside your relationship should be exactly the same. Avoids grey areas and the resulting confusion.
> 
> ...


All true... makes perfect sense, Aztec.

I was saying: 


azteca1986 said:


> "There was just no 'spark' when we dated before. *She didn't need me.*


 about our prior relationship 12+ years ago. That's why I took her out again - she's one of the ones I figure I might have been looking at the wrong things.

Everything went great on the date... she does talk a lot, though. Could have just been nerves - I DID kiss her at one point to make her stop... that worked. 

I'll keep y'all updated.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> I was saying:
> about our prior relationship 12+ years ago. That's why I took her out again - she's one of the ones I figure I might have been looking at the wrong things.


Good. Happy to have got the wrong end of the stick there.



> Everything went great on the date... she does talk a lot, though. Could have just been nerves - I DID kiss her at one point to make her stop... that worked.
> 
> I'll keep y'all updated.


Please do.


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