# Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you?



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you?*

I found this article...







Gate keepers of sex | Manning Up Smart









I liked the 1st 2 paragraphs but then when it hit the "Vagina Authority" & beyond....I felt it completely trampled on the type of relationship I had with my husband while dating... such advice would have instructed him to dump me, I was not worth emotionally investing in...took absolutely no consideration into a woman's moral convictions, guarding her own







... and automatically assumes she is not that into him.. I call







on that.... It just seems any time I read something that deals with Manning up, it assaults our way of living/ "being". 

But really.... is this the Golden Belief of Modern Men today...so cut & dried... those who are Manned up?

This subject was on my mind after a post MEM11363 did -in another thread -a little Rant on women who Gate Keep.... interestingly he mentioned "SA" being an exception, considering what he said after that, I most certainly was... it just got me thinking on this Gate keeping view - his words appear in line with this article ... I guess my point is, not all women fall into that "box". 



> Originally Posted by *MEM11363*
> These threads pop up periodically and I find them to be odd. The way this gets framed is fairly simple: The woman's primary strategy is to 'gate keep' access to her body.
> 
> There is a huge amount of reverse engineering of human behavior (SA) is the exception though I think if her husband had pushed once they knew they were getting married it would have been a coin toss.
> ...




On to this article...



> When a woman has successfully negotiated and *manipulated control *for the relationship frame through negotiated sexual access and plays at sexuality, it is always going to color your dealings with her. She has established a *conditional reward* for desired behavior that lies at the crux of an intimate relationship. This is no way to go through life.
> 
> Your relationship becomes an ever-present, unspoken understanding, one you helped to foster, that she can ultimately play the pu$$y card and you will comply. And while this may gratify her in the short-term, in achieving her desires for *emotional security*, she has already lost her *respect* for you in the long-term, as she simple doesn’t see you as a strong and confident man…the type of man she actually wants.


 So much of this I disagree with.... I felt my husband was beyond better than other guys for deeply caring how I felt and what "waiting" meant to me . The complete & utter opposite of what this speaks. It upped my







& appreciation for him....and how backwards to this article...He respected me MORE so for how I felt. 



> When a woman states that ‘she wants to take things slow’, ‘she’s not that type of girl’, ‘she’s traditional’, it is either an active ploy of *manipulation*, to take *control* of the relationship or covert communication for “I have other options I’m weighing”, “you’re not my first and best option”, or “I’m not that into you”.
> 
> Any way you slice it, you’re getting played, as the golden tenant of the SMP is that a woman will have no problem becoming sexual with you, if you exceed their attraction threshold.


 I would never say this doesn't happen... but not a breathe of this was true for us. 

I have no idea what "SMP" means? MEN, has this happened to you - did a woman try to control you , manipulate you through this Gate keeping, hiding her true motives?



> If sex isn’t on the table, neither should any form of commitment


 So what of those who holds a Older Fashioned Covenantal View of







..it's such a minority today, I guess it doesn't deserve a mention in these types of articles. 



> “There is nothing as simultaneously fear inspiring and arousing for women as a Man that is self-aware of his own value.” “Feminization can’t afford men knowing their true value and potential and thus continuously seeks to confuse men and continually inspire doubt and humiliation.” “ In this regard, *holding a belief that you are better than you really are will bring you more success with women than having a realistic appraisal of yourself*. “ “It is vastly better to error on the side of too much boldness rather than too little…


 I would prefer Realistic in a man... not obnoxious upped boldness to his worth, just saying. Keep your feet on the ground...show a little humility. 



> When sex is exchanged for commitment, both parties loose, as what happens when there is a competing and better offer?


 This article basically tells the men to withhold his showing commitment to the woman...Just shaking my head. I realize this was written for MEN....with the soul belief women want to be , or need to be dangled from a carrot by his Alpha-ness. Typical I guess...a man will do what he's got to do!


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*

Interesting viewpoint SA.
The answer in my case is definitely NO.
Although She decided that sex was off the cards until marital committment,the reality is that whether or not they accept it, women are the gatekeepers of sex, and she decided when she wanted to have sex and I had options.
Either agree to her conditions and get a chance at a life I always wanted deep down inside , or continue pretending that I was the gatekeeper of women's pu$$ies, because any pu$$y I wanted I got it.
But her conditions were not just " no sex ", but a fullfilling relationship where I was king, and she had my back in every concievable way, just as long as I loved ,respected and treated her like a woman of substance.
In my opinion , that was not manipulation," _there is no robbery in fair exchange_" and "_ all is fair in love and war_.."
Oh yes,
I could have walked away because I knew I had game.
But there comes a time when the game changes, new players come in and old ones are forced to retire.
I looked ahead and saw myself at 40+ years old, still hanging around clubs and hitting on chicks half my age , still looking for pu$$y......
Pathetic.
The answer was pretty obvious to me.

In real, loving relationships there is no room for manipulation or games, but the ability to negotiate and establist a proper value of oneself is vital tool in every smart, self respecting woman's arsenal for survival.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*

I probably say this far too often.. but don't take cues for what constitutes normal relationships and social trends from what you see on TAM or any of a number of 'fix it' websites. It is a train wreck of betrayal and infidelity and dysfunction and misery and problems - that is what it/they are for, largely.

I think much of the armchair phychobabble that gets bandied about is only that. Rationalization, storytelling, and our own little justifications to validate our positions and make ourselves feel better. Im not being cynical or dismissive - we all do it to one extent or another and we all seek to improve ourselves and nobody is trying to go about it the 'wrong way'. There isnt a single person on here that does not value a loving, carring, give-and-take relationship free from misery and abuse and selfishness. 

It also does not mean that psychobabble is bad really - many, myself included find necessary tools and analogies to work through things in our lives and talk with people who can relate. But casting wide nets on what motivates people (or not) and why people behave the way they do comes just a little too easy it seems.

In short - and to be frank... I think the article is bunk. Does not apply here. But it must be said that I find many 'articles' of this kind largely useless no matter where they fall on the 'alpha' spectrum. It is the musings of someone on a blog, and thats about it. I wouldnt say it is totally void of all merit - but just because someone took some time to write something down - does not automatically lend it merit. Many of the guys I know with happy healthy families would die laughing at it.. but I bet there are people that nod sagely at it and say "yes. THIS, exactly." 

Extrapolating that sort of thing into 'trends' to me has no merit whatsoever. Just my opinion. The ease with which ideas are disbursed into media such as blogs on the internet is fantastic.. but that does not, ipso facto mean that every piece of miscellaneous verbiage one runs across has worth or is pertinent or is 'evidence' for anything. Im pretty sure you can ascertain 'modern mans views' through that article.

...sort of musing out loud...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*

I'm one of those guys who had a 3 date rule, so ya I would have dumped a girl like SA. Looking at her now, I can see that would definitely have been a mistake. But SA is a very rare bird. I think in most cases if a woman doesn't want you within a few dates it's pretty good evidence that she's not that into you. I guess I'm not as evolved as some.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*

I dont know if I would have dumped someone after a few dates - I want to believe I wouldnt, but frankly.. its never happened. Sign of the times maybe, or just the illusion that times have changed?

Not that I am a love-stud-demigod. Far from it. But, I've only had a handful of girlfriends since highschool and they (relationships) have always seemed to progress pretty quickly and I'm not sure I have ever been a full year without a woman since I was 15. Is that pitifull or lucky or neither? Didnt get married until I was 29.

Serial monogomist, I guess. I'm sure that says something unflattering about me if we try. I am far from co-dependant, but thats the way its been. Been with the missus 25 years now though, so I guess the trend will continue.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*



Caribbean Man said:


> Interesting viewpoint SA.


 Never seen a thread on it, so what the hey! 



> The answer in my case is definitely NO.
> Although She decided that sex was off the cards until marital commitment, the reality is that whether or not they accept it, women are the gatekeepers of sex, and she decided when she wanted to have sex and I had options.
> Either agree to her conditions and get a chance at a life I always wanted deep down inside , or continue pretending that I was the gatekeeper of women's pu$$ies, because any pu$$y I wanted I got it.


You know I adore your Love story .....above all stories on this forum, yours stands out to me...Kudos to that lovely wife of yours CB







...another who proves this article does not speak for all. 



> But her conditions were not just " no sex ", but a fulfilling relationship where I was king, and she had my back in every conceivable way, just as long as I loved ,respected and treated her like a woman of substance.


 I really LIKE this exchange, how you describe this...it's just so courtingly "*honorable*" on both ends...as it should be. 



> In my opinion , that was not manipulation," _there is no robbery in fair exchange_" and "_ all is fair in love and war_.."
> Oh yes,
> I could have walked away because I knew I had game.
> But there comes a time when the game changes, new players come in and old ones are forced to retire.
> ...


 We should all peer into our futures...it's something I did maybe even a little too much in my younger yrs...trying to align how it might all play out...I think I missed smelling some roses doing that unfortunately... though to the good ...I feel it played a helpful hand in my/our decisions that could lead down many paths. 

Good for you CB...and the wife...and truly...you would be pathetic today if that was your life !! It's like this one Porn star in "Playgirl"- he really needs to hang it up... he's been at his job far too long...we call him the "old man" when we see him in a scene. 



> In real, loving relationships there is no room for manipulation or games, but the ability to negotiate and establish a proper value of oneself is vital tool in every smart, self respecting woman's arsenal for survival.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*



Caribbean Man said:


> ...In real, loving relationships there is no room for manipulation or games, but the ability to negotiate and establist a proper value of oneself is vital tool in every smart, self respecting woman's arsenal for survival.


:iagree:


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*

There needs to be a distinction made here.

First off, I didn't read the article yet, so I'm commenting in the blind, but pretty much answering the PRINCIPLE you are asking about.

There is a woman holding herself to a moral standard of waiting for marriage. THAT IS NOT GATEKEEPING. If a woman says to me "I think you are VERY special and I'd say yes if you proposed, but I won't have sex with you because I am doing it with my husband etc" there is nothing to argue about. I either am or am not a person who accepts that limitation. MOST men will respect that...even if SOME don't agree.

My example: I decided reasonably early that I would not sleep with anyone whom I would not marry. BC fails. Babies happen. Within my moral framework, I would not have an abortion, so if I was going to engage in 'risky behavior' I had better be willing to spend the rest of my life with that person. This made me turn down one girl who was FREELY offering herself to me (lots of reasons).

GATEKEEPING is, IMO, the use of sex to hurt or manipulate the other spouse. "I won't sleep with you because of X." "X" could be a positive or a negative; something she wants me to do (the reward nookie and 'good boy' when I complete some task) or punishment for some real or imagined slight.

To which some men...okay...ME...pretty much pulls the tooth of that weapon. If you want to withhold sex or offer it as a 'coin', than I remove ALL value from that transaction. It's a mugs game and allowing that behavior is setting you up for failure down the road.

For example: Let's say my roof had a small leak (and I knew how to fix it...and I had the time...and...well...you get the picture) and my wife said she'd give up the goods when the job was done.

The job obviously needs doing. I would (in my time) get it done. But...I would NOT accept the offered reward and probably wouldn't touch her for some time afterward because of that behavior. Sex is not a coin...or if it is, than it cuts both ways (ANY chore I do now gets me 'paid')

This is not the basis of a healthy relationship. I also find it disdainful of ME as a person, as someone so stupid and blind that something like that would work. If I wasn't married to her, I'd probably dump her. Easy to say now.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*



humanbecoming said:


> I would respect a woman much more who had values and refused sex before she felt a serious commitment, than I would a woman who really didn't value the sexual connection in a relationship. *That being said, I'm a high drive, physical touch guy, so any woman who was an ice queen wouldn't even be on my radar.* I agree with MeM, a woman can show intimacy to a man in ways other than sex. It's all about her showing the desire to grow the connection between us.


I'd feel the same about a GUY! We are both high in Physical Touch.....Shortly after we got together, I distinctly remember thinking " how in the hell are we NOT going to go there" !!... but we pulled through that...the "hands on" couldn't be contained...No ice here..

If anything , I was a little too clingy...but he ate that up.... ya know... being a Beta Boy & all... so this fed something in him. And he fed something in me... as growing up I had 0 "physical touch" at home, we didn't hug...no slaps on the back, my Step Mother didn't do my hair (kids have these same love languages)......ICE there basically ....I remember me & my GF would scratch each others backs..that was the extent of getting that "love language" met ... so when I met him at 15.... he turned that WAY UP....and it seems my confidence grew ...and so did his... along with our emotional connection. 

Going "all the way"... we found, it really wasn't necessary to keep us satisfied....as what you don't know, you don't miss either, but you still dream of the day. 

It'd be different today... of course, I would not be THAT strict. 



> *WorkingOnMe said*: *I'm one of those guys who had a 3 date rule,* so ya I would have dumped a girl like SA. Looking at her now, I can see that would definitely have been a mistake. But SA is a very rare bird. I think in most cases if a woman doesn't want you within a few dates it's pretty good evidence that she's not that into you. I guess I'm not as evolved as some.


 Yes...there are many men who feel strongly on X amount of dates (probably even more so if you are picking up the tab!)...like







... I always notice the posts on TAM who give that expectation... Also women who "make fun" of a man who brings them home & Doesn't jump for sex. Another :wtf: .... he must be Gay, 4 inches or a BOY. 

People fascinate me... 



> *Anotherguy said*: I probably say this far too often.. but don't take cues for what constitutes normal relationships and social trends from what you see on TAM or any of a number of 'fix it' websites. It is a train wreck of betrayal and infidelity and dysfunction and misery and problems - that is what it/they are for, largely.


 You know I don't... basically I just like to argue and dissect these things...and always love the input of others & their experiences. 



> There isn't a single person on here that does not value a loving, caring, give-and-take relationship free from misery and abuse and selfishness.


 Of course... the path we choose to ARRIVE there may be a little different.... but ultimately we want the same things.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*



JCD said:


> There needs to be a distinction made here.
> 
> First off, I didn't read the article yet, so I'm commenting in the blind, but pretty much answering the PRINCIPLE you are asking about.
> 
> There is a woman holding herself to a moral standard of waiting for marriage. THAT IS NOT GATEKEEPING. If a woman says to me "I think you are VERY special and I'd say yes if you proposed, but I won't have sex with you because I am doing it with my husband etc" there is nothing to argue about. I either am or am not a person who accepts that limitation. MOST men will respect that...even if SOME don't agree.










for chiming in here JCD ....so you say this is not Gate Keeping - such a term should be reserved for women resorting to female "manipulation" to control or get a desired result ... If this is true.. then I would have to stop using that term, because I am surely against doing that.  



> My example: I decided reasonably early that I would not sleep with anyone whom I would not marry. BC fails. Babies happen. Within my moral framework, I would not have an abortion, so if I was going to engage in 'risky behavior' I had better be willing to spend the rest of my life with that person. This made me turn down one girl who was FREELY offering herself to me (lots of reasons).


 Refreshing to hear a man talk like THIS... I see what you say as greatly Responsible and wise ..this could avoid many possible disasters. 



> GATEKEEPING is, IMO, the use of sex to hurt or manipulate the other spouse. "I won't sleep with you because of X." "X" could be a positive or a negative; something she wants me to do (the reward nookie and 'good boy' when I complete some task) or punishment for some real or imagined slight.


 I never read anything on Gate Keeping till that article ...I assumed it meant before







...but in this context -it can be all through the Honeymoon to the grave. 



> To which some men...okay...ME...pretty much pulls the tooth of that weapon. If you want to withhold sex or offer it as a 'coin', than I remove ALL value from that transaction. It's a mugs game and allowing that behavior is setting you up for failure down the road.


 Yes, direct communication of the issue at hand is what is needed here, not using "intimacy" as a Ploy, this is demeaning and also...it screams She doesn't value *it* -but knows YOU DO - wanting to put you on a string...her puppet. 



> For example: Let's say my roof had a small leak (and I knew how to fix it...and I had the time...and...well...you get the picture) and my wife said she'd give up the goods when the job was done.
> 
> The job obviously needs doing. I would (in my time) get it done. But...I would NOT accept the offered reward and probably wouldn't touch her for some time afterward because of that behavior. Sex is not a coin...or if it is, than it cuts both ways (ANY chore I do now gets me 'paid')
> 
> This is not the basis of a healthy relationship. I also find it disdainful of ME as a person, as someone so stupid and blind that something like that would work. If I wasn't married to her, I'd probably dump her. Easy to say now.


 Sorry for your experience in this JCD!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate*



humanbecoming said:


> You know, my growing up home life was pretty much the same. Neither parent was physically affectionate, things like hugs were rare. I still feel horribly awkward hugging or kissing my parents, or saying "I love you" to them, for that matter.
> 
> Not any point to your OP, just caught me. I wonder if some of us BECOME physical touch people due to a lack of that as we grow up...


I have the book The 5 Love Languages of Children.. In reading pages of it...I recall the idea of "we are born a certain way"...and as parents, we need to be careful...observing how each child is different, you learn to see what brightens their world...It doesn't sound it changes ...it just IS....

So if a child is being deprived (as it sounds ME & You were growing up).....it is going to zap a place in them of not feeling fully loved. Which can lead to other not so becoming behaviors trying to recoup that, or just a loss of self esteem even.

The Most I got once I moved in with my dad is... I remember his coming into my room to kiss me on the cheek before leaving for work for a couple yrs but stopped as I got a little older... Although we were never really "close"- like it is with our kids today... I LOVE my dad, I am so much LIKE him, it's a little crazy...he was highly into my Step Mom - she didn't want me there, this affected "us". 

I remember reading about *the boys*...* if physical touch*...Dad & son engaging in High fives, a bear hug...slaps on the back ...things like that...it might be small...but the connection gives them that "you're OK son, I love you"...even without the words.

One of our son's friends, his Dad is always HELPING him build things, maybe he is an "Acts of Service" child & Dad is clued in ....it makes sense. 

I can pinpoint most of my kids...with the older ones telling me. 

My daughter is like myself....she Is TOUCH (& Time)...so I know she better marry a Guy like that (shouldn't be hard to find -ha ha)..... she loves to hug her little brother saying he is so cute she wants to eat him up ...cuddle near dad watching movies-his twirling her hair (that is so ME!), thinks nothing of hopping on a friends lap, loves to peel Masks off my face, Dad picking her up-using her like a broom ..Yeah...it's very evident- this lights her up...  & laughing from ear to ear. 

4th son is "Words of Affirmation" ...which seems to be the worst thing he could be...he annoys the family to no end....and I tend to NOT encourage him & praise him when I SHOULD... which may hurt him -cause this is what makes HIM feel loved... husband got on me just last night for not being nice to him. I know he is right. :banghead:

Regardless of what we missed in our childhoods... IF you can find that in your marriage..and have it fulfilled, then it does do wonders for your spirit.. this I have found. I do believe that lack in my youth contributed to my yearning for a "good" guy to fall into my life.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*

One thing about the attitude in the article is that we read on here all the time that men do not want to marry a woman who has had a lot of partners.

Then we read stuff like this article.. which would lead to women jumping in bed with a lot of men. 

I've been on more than 3 dates with a lot of guys who seemed promissing at first. But then after a few more dates it became clear that they were not someone I wanted to be with. It's a good thing that i did not jump in bed with them all by the 3rd date.


It's a rediculous expection. Women wanting to find out about a guy she's dating before having sex with him is not the same a married women, or a woman in a long term relationship, who might be playing games and using sex as a reward/punishment.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*



EleGirl said:


> Women wanting to find out about a guy she's dating before having sex with him is not the same a married women, or a woman in a long term relationship, who might be playing games and using sex as a reward/punishment.


I agree with your assessment Ele.
They are definitely not the same.
And to a great extent, AnotherGuy is right. Most of these types of relationship articles are just rubbish from souls who are so lost that they don't even know who or where to get a sense of direction.
It cannot apply to anybody wanting anything other than meaningless sex.
" Serial monogamist " as we call them.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*



> When a woman has successfully negotiated and manipulated control for the relationship frame through negotiated sexual access and plays at sexuality, it is always going to color your dealings with her. She has established a conditional reward for desired behavior that lies at the crux of an intimate relationship. This is no way to go through life.
> 
> Your relationship becomes an ever-present, unspoken understanding, one you helped to foster, that she can ultimately play the pu$$y card and you will comply. And while this may gratify her in the short-term, in achieving her desires for emotional security, she has already lost her respect for you in the long-term, as she simple doesn’t see you as a strong and confident man…the type of man she actually wants.


When I was into the dating scene in my younger days, I always exercised control - *over myself.* I was never at a loss for dates, and was only dumped once (when I was 17) by a much older guy I refused to have sex with. I can still remember him coming back a month later: "I'm prepared to give you a second chance, if you can assure me you'll change." By then I'd met my first long term boyfriend, and happily told him what to do with his "second chance!"

That was the first and only time I had that sort of experience. I was completely up front about my values and can't remember ever trying to manipulate or control a man, but I certainly exercised control over myself. It wasn't about looking for men who would commit to me, it was about me finding a man I would want to commit to - and I was highly selective.

Good thread, SA.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*



Caribbean Man said:


> In real, loving relationships there is no room for manipulation or games, but the ability to negotiate and establist a proper value of oneself is vital tool in every smart, self respecting woman's arsenal for survival.


Well, since I got her pregnant at 16, sex was obviously not off the table until marriage, but we were two horny teenagers so the part of the Article about dating does no not apply. That aside, I am so glad that my wife has never used sex as manipulation. She is not the "gate keeper" in any way, shape, of form. See my signature line. That pretty much says it all. Another part off Scripture says that my body belongs to her for her pleasure and her body belongs to me for my pleasure.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*

//totally off topic, sorry.//

(shaking head)

Romantic_Guy, but for simple fate, I could have been you with a pregnant girlfriend at 16. It makes my head spin to think about it. We had sex _routinely_ and never used any ANY protection besides my pulling out of her.. and I tell you - there were several times where I almost couldnt the compulsion of what we were doing was so overwhelming.

You have done well to have made it all this way. Seriously.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*

My H and I didn't have sex for several months into our dating relationship, probably about 20 dates at least (maybe more depending on what you call dates). He never once "pressured" for sex, and neither did I.

We were sexual in other ways, however. By and large, we mostly just made out and mashed like teenagers on the couch for hours at a time.

There were easily identifiable cues we each could recognize that we were sexually compatible, so we didn't actually have to have sex to determine that fact.

Both of us having had plenty of sexual experience, we both knew that sex is actually the *easy* part of a relationship (for us, specifically). Therefore, checking each other out in ways other than sexually was what we deemed important.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*

Well, depends really...

While reading NMMNG, one thing that struck me was "Once sex starts, learning stops." Basically once the sex starts, you become more lenient towards a person's failings of personality. Even if you're not a sex starved teenager, regular sex with somebody can give you a sort of "rose-coloured" view of that person. So, no shame in waiting until you try to figure out the dude/dudette.

But, once you have gotten a clear view of that person and said "hey, yeah ,this is someone who is worthy of love and trust"... Basically once you've pair bonded, sex feels natural and not forced. And if nothing it's something that has to be evaluated before marriage to see if there is compatibility between drives and such. I don't want to be the victim of the ole bait-and-switch.

Waiting until marriage just seems unnatural and risque to me, doesn't matter if the woman is "gate-keeping" or not.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*



Shadow_Nirvana said:


> ...While reading NMMNG, one thing that struck me was *"Once sex starts, learning stops."*....


Really now. You believe that? I dont.

but you also say waiting is 'unnatural'?

So.. you prefer to stop learning and get married with your lovers rose colored glasses firmly in place?


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*



anotherguy said:


> //totally off topic, sorry.//
> 
> (shaking head)
> 
> ...


Hope I am not thread jacking here, but thanks! You could call it fate, Divine providence, luck...whatever, but we are often amazed at how compatible we are, how we enjoy the same things, how we are best friends, etc. especially given the fact that we did not really know each other. Even at 16 & 17 somehow we know we could not imagine life without the other. Oh, BTW, ours happened because of poor timing.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*



anotherguy said:


> Really now. You believe that? I dont.
> 
> but you also say waiting is 'unnatural'?
> 
> So.. you prefer to stop learning and get married with your lovers rose colored glasses firmly in place?


Well, I did say in my post that "after" you got the gist of the person. I believe that sex is never just sex. It is an emotional investment(yes, even for men lol) and it causes the secretion of hormones that give the pair-bonding feeling(the whole oxytocin-vasopressin deal). Okay, the learning doesn't "stop" but it takes a huge blow, especially if you have a tendency for codependency(which I believe a lot of people have).


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*



romantic_guy said:


> That aside, I am so glad that my wife has never used sex as manipulation. *She is not the "gate keeper" in any way, shape, of form.* See my signature line. That pretty much says it all. Another part of Scripture says that my body belongs to her for her pleasure and her body belongs to me for my pleasure.


Reading this ....I recall a post I did a while back, I was defending this Gate Keeping thing while dating ...but once the 2 are made "one" in each other......there is no place for the Gate in a healthy marriage... it needs blown up - never to be erected again.

I too







with the scriptures you are citing Romantic Guy...in the spirit it *IS *meant anyway. 













> *anotherguy said :* Romantic_Guy, but for simple fate, I could have been you with a pregnant girlfriend at 16. It makes my head spin to think about it. We had sex routinely and never used ANY protection besides my pulling out of her.. and I tell you - there were several times where I almost couldnt the compulsion of what we were doing was so overwhelming


 Then there's ME...got pregnant before he got it IN... Life is funny.... Yeah...







swim mighty nicely. It is good we didn't mess around with those explosions back in the day. My step mother would have thrown me out...no mercy... his parents would have taken me in though. He never did like the raincoat. 









Romantic Guy... what did you do?? Quit High school and get a Job, did you move in with her parents ?? That was SO young!



> *Shadow_Nirvana said*: While reading NMMNG, one thing that struck me was "Once sex starts, learning stops." Basically once the sex starts, you become more lenient towards a person's failings of personality. Even if you're not a sex starved teenager, regular sex with somebody can give you a sort of "rose-coloured" view of that person. So, no shame in waiting until you try to figure out the dude/dudette.


 I have always believed this...I feel it causes a premature bonding that...too often "blinds" to those red flags waving...... I didn't know that Athol Kay said it also.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Well, I did say in my post that "after" you got the gist of the person. I believe that sex is never just sex. It is an emotional investment(yes, even for men lol) and it causes the secretion of hormones that give the pair-bonding feeling(the whole oxytocin-vasopressin deal). Okay, the learning doesn't "stop" but it takes a huge blow, especially if you have a tendency for codependency(which I believe a lot of people have).


Laugh. OK. Just pointing out that maybe we shouldn't assume some things as 'fact'.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*



SimplyAmorous said:


> y I have always believed this...I feel it causes a premature bonding that...too often blinds people to some red flags raving...... I didn't know that Athol Kay said it also.


No, it's from Robert Glover  Athol Kay sometimes says a variant of it, as he does use the NMMNG as a basis too.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*

I feel even in the best relationships (especially) early on that the "Vaginal Authority" is usually common. My wife is perfect in every way, i could not believe i found such a beautiful person inside and out, such a wonderful good person much more than i was. Our sex life was never bad, but it took a while until she became how she is now with sex. Now she is so much more open, adventurous, and into it.. Sex before was never a "you do this you receive" but it was not how it is now. 

I think the "vaginal authority" is why a lot of men cheat in marriages.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*

I've never succeeded in finding anyone worth committing myself to via dating. The girls I met through friends or naturally were the only relationships I had (like... 2, not counting short term ones (less than a year)). My wife and I, we've been together for a longish time.

I dunno though about the article; the type of women I met changed dramatically when I moved city, I had the standards of a country boy, I expected warmth, depth, morality, and personality. There were quite a few sweet, caring and genuine women back in my hometown.

Moving to the big city though, when dating I found nothing but ice, lack of morals/personal integrity, self-centerness, egotistical attitudes, shallow personalities all wrapped up in materialistic packages. So I just had the lot of 'em as friends with benefits at most.

I played with a different deck depending on the game. Women are categorised in my mind "Potential" "FWB" or "Friend", potentials are rare, FWBs/friends... well, they served their purpose. As such, since I did not emotionally commit, I had no problems with "working the law of averages" to the point that gatekeeping was simply too ineffective to stop me;

If I didn't get sex from one girl I didn't really care, I just dumped them and always had other options. The benefit of a big city I guess, you can sleep around like a man***** and get away with it by disappearing into the crowd.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*



Shadow_Nirvana said:


> No, it's from Robert Glover  Athol Kay sometimes says a variant of it, as he does use the NMMNG as a basis too.


I KNEW that, just got mixed up in a moment. I have both books....my husband would not read any of this...I was the curious one. 



> *Goldmember357 said*: Our sex life was never bad, but it took a while until she became how she is now with sex. Now she is so much more open, adventurous, and into it.. Sex before was never a "you do this you receive" but it was not how it is now.


 It does tend to go this way with many of us ....I was similar...just mindlessly inhibited (I am sure







coming so fast didn't help matters)... but never "not into it"... 

I've been tempted to BLAME my husband for this...as he was more Raring to go over me .... and he didn't jump to be more Creative to UP the arousal/ MOVE & shake me...I really feel he had a lot to work with (I am biased!)....he could have at least bought me a BOOK on pleasure to explore ! His answer..he felt he was a little "repressed" too... so I guess we were a case of the "blind leading the blind"..it seemed the high emotion of what we shared was "satisfaction enough" all those yrs. 

If I had any complaints.. He knows me well enough....I'd be motivated to do a rehaul on him...so even if I was hiding under the sheets....I was very  all of those yrs. 

But men dealing with one of us Gatekeeping inexperienced Women....needs to read up on Sex, Spicing, Pleasuring and explore EARLY ...keep at it, keep the communication flowing ...flirt, tease, make if FUN...I so wish we had done more of that. 

So instead...we hit ours in Mid Life...felt like we discovered a whole uncharted layer in the sexual...











> *Random Dude said:* I dunno though about the article; the type of women I met changed dramatically when I moved city, *I had the standards of a country boy, I expected warmth, depth, morality, and personality.* There were quite a few sweet, caring and genuine women back in my hometown.


 Really Random Dude, you started out like a moral Country Boy...then the Big bad city corrupted you [email protected]#$% This is news to me. :scratchhead:



> Moving to the big city though, when dating I found nothing but ice, lack of morals/personal integrity, self-centerness, egotistical attitudes, shallow personalities all wrapped up in materialistic packages. So I just had the lot of 'em as friends with benefits at most.


 Maybe it is all that night life... in the country... we're more apt to sit around on our back porches shooting the breeze with friends... go to birthday parties, more of a community atmosphere - at least when you belong to a Church or something. 



> I played with a different deck depending on the game. Women are categorised in my mind "Potential" "FWB" or "Friend", potentials are rare, FWBs/friends... well, they served their purpose. As such, since I did not emotionally commit, I had no problems with "working the law of averages" to the point that gatekeeping was simply too ineffective to stop me;
> 
> If I didn't get sex from one girl I didn't really care, I just dumped them and always had other options. The benefit of a big city I guess, you can sleep around like a man***** and get away with it by disappearing into the crowd.


 You know what I think... I know you love to Write RD...you need to take your time...and write up how the Player MIND thinks...in all it's rawness...after all I know you want to spare your daughter from these types... but you could share this will so many... Open some eyes -as to not get hurt and take advantage of a little more Gate keeping...

I found this on the net not long ago >> 








The 10 Commandments of Casual Sex : CollegeCandy – Life, Love & Style For The College Girl

...I thought it got to the heart of the matter... that going in- there really is 0 expectations... things like "booty not brains"... "Orgasms -the only goal"...being naked 97% of the time...#7 said "using someone for sex who has real feelings for you makes you an a$$h***. Period". 

I bet you followed all of those rules Random Dude... but did the women?


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*

Some men (and some cultures) use a different metric to 'defend' a male's heart (that isn't how they explain it, but it works in that context too)

There is the male 'rite of passage' where a boy passing puberty gets dragged off to a local brothel where he is allowed to misplace his cherry and he is taught that sex is just something to scratch.

Essentially, he is not allowed to emotionally bond with the girl involved so the sex act becomes seperate from 'love'.

I understand the intention if I don't fully agree with it. We see the results on the opposite end of the spectrum here ALL THE TIME! How many men here are pvssy:whip:, having their spouse hold out the Holy Grail of Sex to get them to dance attendance? Because they 'love' and are 'bonded' to a woman who obviously doesn't feel the same way.

The result is HORRIBLE for a man. And yes, it happens to women here too. But as I always say: sexual dynamics are strongly skewed. A man has to work his ass off for sex. All a woman needs to do is say 'yes'. (This doesn't mean she gets the type and 'quality' of man that she wants...but she can ALWAYS get A man...or vague male creature)

So women really ARE ALWAYS Gatekeepers. Someone is ALWAYS willing to knock on their door. The biggest question a man needs to ask is 'how exclusive is the membership?' and 'are the dues worth the floor show?'


(Obviously these tend to be patriarchal societies and they prefer the women face the 'bonding' vulnerabilty...and these also tend to be cultures which overlook male infidelity...because they've reduced 'sex' to an itch. But the also still strongly believe in love and loyalty OUTSIDE of sex. This seems ridiculous to women, but it's at least partly true)


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*



Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Well, I did say in my post that "after" you got the gist of the person. I believe that sex is never just sex. It is an emotional investment(yes, even for men lol) and it causes the secretion of hormones that give the pair-bonding feeling(the whole oxytocin-vasopressin deal). Okay, the learning doesn't "stop" but it takes a huge blow, especially if you have a tendency for codependency(which I believe a lot of people have).


:iagree:

And there's no way I would want my judgment clouding by that whole hormonal/bonding deal before I had a pretty good idea of who I was bonding with.

We make enough mistakes when it comes to relationships without forming premature attachments to people. I know I have.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*



SimplyAmorous said:


> Romantic Guy... what did you do?? Quit High school and get a Job, did you move in with her parents ?? .



We moved in with my dad while I finished my senior year then we moved to another state so I could go to college. My only regret was that I should have waited a year to start college so my wife could finish high school; she was an honors student. She finished GED. I did three years...then waited almost 20 years to complete a bachelors degree and graduate school.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*

Another Guy,

I am going to pile on here. I totally agree with you. First this article advising men has this woman as adversary tone. 

Second it says to be consistently over confident etc...

Here's the thing. The woman who believes your exaggerated self assessment and marries you is actually going to EXPECT you to DELIVER. And while I have no stats to back this up, I am going to guess those marriages are NOT happy. 

Call me crazy, but when the woman figures out you kind of tricked 
her, I am guessing maybe that doesn't get her all sexually excited and wanting to lay you like tile......





anotherguy said:


> I probably say this far too often.. but don't take cues for what constitutes normal relationships and social trends from what you see on TAM or any of a number of 'fix it' websites. It is a train wreck of betrayal and infidelity and dysfunction and misery and problems - that is what it/they are for, largely.
> 
> I think much of the armchair phychobabble that gets bandied about is only that. Rationalization, storytelling, and our own little justifications to validate our positions and make ourselves feel better. Im not being cynical or dismissive - we all do it to one extent or another and we all seek to improve ourselves and nobody is trying to go about it the 'wrong way'. There isnt a single person on here that does not value a loving, carring, give-and-take relationship free from misery and abuse and selfishness.
> 
> ...


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*

Getting married is SOMETIMES like DRIVING DRUNK.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*



SimplyAmorous said:


> Really Random Dude, you started out like a moral Country Boy...then the Big bad city corrupted you [email protected]#$% This is news to me. :scratchhead:


Lol, when it comes to my lifestyle and what I used to do, I was ANYTHING but moral heh. I was refering to my experiences with women, my own personal morality's a seperate subject haha. Morality, good and evil doesn't really mean much to me. I prefer to be nice to people and make the world a better place, but yet I always did what I had to do during my teens when I was forced on the streets. So I wouldn't have called myself moral.

But yes - when it came to ladies, guess I was different in my teens (funny isn't it). When my first gf and I got together I wasn't a player, had no reason to be. In fact, I've never had a reason to hurt women, they were always under my protection. As violent as I was when it came to my rather criminal lifestyle in my youth, I wasn't interested in the game or hurting women - either than having problems with the police from time to time. Women from the country/small cities are a whole different stock to big city women I found.



> Maybe it is all that night life... in the country... we're more apt to sit around on our back porches shooting the breeze with friends... go to birthday parties, more of a community atmosphere - at least when you belong to a Church or something.


It's the pace I think, like in the country, people are more laid back. In the big city, it's always rush hour, everyone's in a hurry, and no one gives a sh-t about anyone else because they can always disappear back into the crowd.

ALSO - You can't have the whole town in bed without someone knowing what you're up to. In a big city, no one gives a sh-t lol



> You know what I think... I know you love to Write RD...you need to take your time...and write up how the Player MIND thinks...in all it's rawness...after all I know you want to spare your daughter from these types... but you could share this will so many... Open some eyes -as to not get hurt and take advantage of a little more Gate keeping...
> 
> I found this on the net not long ago >>
> 
> ...


Well, my experiences are not unique 
Also I guess deep inside I'm not really a player and never really was one, more of a NSA guy with the girls.

The big city mentality, attitudes and lifestyle got to me after a while I guess hence I went from going from gf to gf to fckbuddy to fckbuddy. Yes I followed the rules to the best of my ability, the women who did not follow them were dumped. However I wasn't mean, ironically I was always honest. I've NEVER led them on. I just never had to, and they appreciated the friendship and honesty.

I switched to having no strings attached as I found myself unable to form a connection with the rather shallow mentalities of the city girls I met. I was "semi-collared" a few times but the relationships weren't really strong (or long), like heck I used to share my ex-"gf" with my mates and fk other women (it was consented) too. Very little depth and none of them were interesting (until I met my wife who's unfortunately a little TOO interesting - in a bad way)

On topic, I actually find it ironic really, I bypassed the whole "gatekeeping" thing because I always had women to spare lol


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*

I like to think I can tell when a woman is sexually interested in me, even if she's not having sex with me. And vice versa; if a woman was "using" me for commitment - sleeping with me just to obtain commitment - I think I could tell she wasn't actually interested in me. 

I'm not sure if I even bother with the rest. The article seems to be aimed at men who are not sure if they are being "used" or not. I guess I think I would know. If Adriana Lima was actually really into me, said she was waiting for marriage but willing to rub my back (or whatever) until then, I'd be fine with waiting, I think


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

*Re: Modern Men's views on Women being the "Gatekeeper" - did your wife manipulate you*

I looked at the article. The second sentence:



> In the SMP and society at large it is assumed that men alone are the sex abdicating their societal duty in not preparing themselves for relationships, marriage and creating families men just need to ‘man up!’


This is not even a coherent sentence. There's more of the same too. This is some pretentious buzz-word laden screed feigning intellectual gravitas and failing. 

Bloviation. Verbosity. How about the "succinct" statement that was six disjoint sentences? Is this author really that retarded?

It looks to me like re-arranging the words of the article in any random order would produce an article of equal quality. But not reading it at all would be superior use of time.


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