# Nearly 3 years of Rare but Unsatisfying sex



## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

I have written about all of this before but has been scattered over many threads so here it is in linear form. 

I started on here a couple of months talking about how I was starting to lose interest in my wife. The reason for that was that she had stopped having much of a sex drive. Her indifference towards the topic had rubbed off onto me. I was especially worried because we have a child due in April and the sexual dysfunction is only going to get worse. 

So, to make this a bit clearer I will give a chronology.

January 2006- We meet

January 2007- Sex for the first time. The year gap is due mostly having to wait 6 months to have sex after her being immunized for HPV. At this time, she was a teacher and I was a tech support agent who went to school full time. The income divide was 60% her and 40% me. 

December 2008- Proposal done at a castle in Scotland

September 2009- Married

2010-We move for Graduate School in Nevada. At this time, I am taking small jobs in an effort to get done with undergrad and hopefully be done with grad school ASAP. She gets a teaching job and makes most of the income. Up until this time, things were fine. Emotionally and sexually, I had no complaints. 

Mid-2010, the sexual draught started. It went from 2-3 times a week and the sessions being fulfilling to once a month quickies. At first, I thought it was a phase. She worked full time and I was taking 4 graduate economics courses. Time was precious but the excuse was always that she was too tired, too stressed, too busy, or not in the mood. 

2011- I can’t tabulate exactly but we probably had sex 10-15 times that year. Each time lasting 5 minutes or less. Besides the hour or so spent that year being intimate, the topic of sex just does not come up. No sexy texts, no flirting, nada.

I hear the excuses and think to myself, “Hmm… we should step up and take care of the housework . This would free her up at night”. So I start doing it all. Nothing ever was said to me. I just did it. Dishes, laundry, lunches, shopping, the vehicle, the pets. No complaining out of me. Not a word.

I read some stuff similar to MMSLP and decide that I need to drink less craft beer and become more active. I need to improve myself so I start going on crazy, long bike rides to the middle of nowhere. Intense, exhausting, but rewarding journeys that left me with leg muscles to die for. 

I take up other hobbies such as home brewing and reading obscure but interesting books. The home brewing was a hit with the friends (shocker). She was genuinely supportive of my endeavors. Entered a few homebrew contests and did ok. 

As for her being tired, I thought that maybe it is a matter of when. Mornings, nights, mid-day. Nothing works. I was trying to initiate about 2-3 times a week. The rejection was not what I expected. No strong emotions. Just a casual brush off like I was sweater lint. 

Her response to these changes? “Meh”.

Early 2012- I have the first “talk”. Largely unproductive. I ask her if I am unattractive, not doing something right, can I do something , etc. Her responses were vague and left me confused. 

At this time, graduate school is getting ready to conclude. We have always talked about having kids. So, stupidly, I proceed with this thinking that it has to get better. How can someone be all lovey-dovey with me on the couch on a regular basis and not want more?

Fall 2012-Graduate school complete. Fertility treatments to start in May 2013.

July 2013- We conceive the child and my light bulb comes on (a bit late, I know). Once a month sex and it is only going to get worse. In the meantime, I have had enormous struggles finding a job that pays worth a darn. The market for economists and analysts is tough especially when you have no applicable job experience. I have always been employed but the pay is never there. 

January 2013- I make a new years resolution to myself. I will make no advances, no flirting, no initiating, no sexy texts, nothing. If she wants detachment, then let her have it. I thought that she would miss it and that I may see a change. No. We had one session in Feb. and one in April. 3 sessions in an effort to conceive in July. 2 since that time. 

November 2013- After another unproductive “talk”, I gave her an ultimatum that if she wants the marriage to last, she needs to rediscover her sex drive by one year after the child is born. If she has no interest in me then just say it and let’s move on. She has yet to ever say that she finds me unattractive. I have yet to convince her to maybe have her hormone levels checked. 

Throughout most of this life, we have led relatively independent lives. Lately, that has really came into my focus. From 6 am to 7 pm, I live the same life that I would if I was single. 

Largely, my complaint is that she does not care. As she once said, “So, we are not having sex…. And that matters for what reason?”. Additionally, I get frustrated at the five minutes specials. She refuses oral and could not care less if we kiss or touch. She breaks out the vibrator and then wants PIV for two minutes. Then it is over and back to watching Grey’s Anatomy.

To nip it in the bud. Neither of us have cheated or not that I know of with her. Other than the 3 times that she initiated this year, she never does. From mid-2010 to 2013, it was all me.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

You two are detached, seriously detached from each other. Thanks for sharing though, it does provide quite abit of insight. In my opinion the problem is presenting itself very clearly, in which you two are living seperate lives.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Yikes!

Serious lack of intimacy here. Okay so you've been reading for a while now so I'm going to assume you know that 

-sex drive begins in the brain so getting sex and foreplay begins several hours prior to touching. 
-non sexual touching is vital for relationships.
-flirting with each other is also vital.

You say she doesn't.... But you don't say what YOU do. Helping around the house is awesome but in itself it would get your laid. Do you send dirty texts, do you kiss, touch and hold her? Do you kiss the back of her neck when you pass her in the kitchen? Do you playfully swat her bottom for flirty reasons? Do you two spend quality alone time together without the TV on every day?

You say you've had a couple of talks but the feedback you get from her is vague. If it is vague and you don't get it, why do you allow the vagueness to stand? Keep asking and keep asking until you do.

Does she masturbate? If so how often? Does she ready smutty stories?

Does she fully understand that you are thinking about ending this marriage since you are not getting your needs met?


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Yikes!
> 
> Serious lack of intimacy here. Okay so you've been reading for a while now so I'm going to assume you know that
> 
> ...


Prior to my new year's resolution, I was very liberal in my non-sexual touching, massaging, etc. I would do it often and with no ultimate goal. I just wanted to touch her, kiss her, etc. I would send texts or emails and they would go unanswered.

I could be wrong but she does not masturbate and does not read romance novels. 

I told her that if she does not start meeting my needs by the time that the child is 1 year old that I am moving on. 

During the week, we eat dinner together and then go back to our individual pursuits. On the weekend, we make a point of spending time with one another and making sure the calendar is mostly empty.

We have only had a few "talks" but I bring it up about once every two weeks during conversation. The responses are mostly the same old, "I don't know".

My number one trait in life is determination. However, her complete and utter lack of interest has sapped my will.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"January 2006- We meet

January 2007- Sex for the first time. The year gap is due mostly having to wait 6 months to have sex after her being immunized for HPV."


What kind of "other" intimacy was going on during this time, if any?


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> "January 2006- We meet
> 
> January 2007- Sex for the first time. The year gap is due mostly having to wait 6 months to have sex after her being immunized for HPV."
> 
> ...


We started making out and being physical in May 2006. We would give each other oral and/or make out quite often. Usually 3-4 times a week.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Has she ever been abused?


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Has she ever been abused?


No. However, she did grow up in a very religious (Conservative Nazarene) household.

I am the one who has past abuse issues.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

When she says "I don't know..." How do you respond? Do you think she honestly doesn't know why her sex drive disappeared?

Have you two read the too marriage books recommended here?
5 love languages
His Need Her Needs
Love Busters
No more Mr. Nice Guy

How does she respond if you start touching her? Does she ever touch you at all on her own?


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> When she says "I don't know..." How do you respond? Do you think she honestly doesn't know why her sex drive disappeared?
> 
> Have you two read the too marriage books recommended here?
> 5 love languages
> ...


At first, I would keep probing. Now, I just shut down so that I do not explode with anger. I really do not know what she thinks. 

I have read No Mr. Nice Guy and MMSLP. 

If I do the touching, she seems to like it. I get the smile and the moans of approval when I massage her. She rarely ever touches me if I do not touch her first.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> No. However, she did grow up in a *very religious (Conservative Nazarene) household.*
> 
> I am the one who has past abuse issues.



THATS IT!!!

While you two were dating she could thumb her nose at that upbringing and enjoy it. She was being baaaad. But now she is a wife and a wife is supposed to be pure and not ****ty and all that stuff she saw from her own Mom who of course never had sex in her life except to conceive children!

Every night both of you TOGETHER log on to this site

Christian Nymphos | Married Sex: Spicy, the way God intended it to be!

It will help her dispell her thought process about being a good wife and mother and bring back the baaaaad girlfriend you fell in love with.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

And get those other books and read them together too.

Every night for one hour you two either go to the web site of read those books together. Being pregnant is a lousy time to try to work on this but better now than after the baby when you also have that crushing fatigue and baby fat left over to also cope with.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> THATS IT!!!
> 
> While you two were dating she could thumb her nose at that upbringing and enjoy it. She was being baaaad. But now she is a wife and a wife is supposed to be pure and not ****ty and all that stuff she saw from her own Mom who of course never had sex in her life except to conceive children!
> 
> ...


That site is worth a try. Thanks for the tip. 

I just wish that the light bulb had came on earlier. I am excited about the child but am starting to not care about the marriage. Maybe those books will re-ignite my interest.


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## Another Planet (Aug 8, 2012)

Aren't you not suppose to have any sexual contact? HPV virus can still be passed along through all mucous membranes. Just giving you a heads up, I could be wrong.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Another Planet said:


> Aren't you not suppose to have any sexual contact? HPV virus can still be passed along through all mucous membranes. Just giving you a heads up, I could be wrong.


That is what she told me so I was respectful and went along with it. I am not a medical professional.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Whatever your abuse issues were, have you gotten IC for them? And have you (honestly) worked through it all (honestly)?


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Whatever your abuse issues were, have you gotten IC for them? And have you (honestly) worked through it all (honestly)?


No, I have never received counseling for them. They show up in the form of my not liking to receive oral. So, no I have not worked through all of them. The major demons have been mostly put down but the small ones such as not liking to receive oral or give anal are still there.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> No, I have never received counseling for them. They show up in the form of my not liking to receive oral. So, no I have not worked through all of them. The major demons have been put down but the small ones such as not liking to receive oral or give anal are still there.


Sorry but I gotta laugh cause only a man would ignore the huge elephant in the room and go for how it affects his sex life.

The huge element is trust and vulnerability. You have to learn both to be in a happy marriage. You wouldn't believe all the crap that crops up when trust is easily broken and the fear of vulnerability keeps you from trusting.

Sounds like working with your wife to open herself up will also help you...?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Do you realize that CSA survivors sometimes subconsciously choose partners who are not very sexual as a coping strategy? You do need IC for yourself, tyler.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Do you realize that CSA survivors sometimes subconsciously choose partners who are not very sexual as a coping strategy? You do need IC for yourself, tyler.


No, I had not. To be completely honest, I have never done any research on CSA or read any self-help books. I fought the demons alone from 4th grade on up to my mid-20's and feel that I have overcame it mostly.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Sorry but I gotta laugh cause only a man would ignore the huge elephant in the room and go for how it affects his sex life.
> 
> The huge element is trust and vulnerability. You have to learn both to be in a happy marriage. You wouldn't believe all the crap that crops up when trust is easily broken and the fear of vulnerability keeps you from trusting.
> 
> Sounds like working with your wife to open herself up will also help you...?


I had no issues with trust and vulnerability in the bedroom for the first 3 years when our sex life was healthy. I admit that I am pretty good at shutting the world out as a whole. I have always been a lone ranger type but I felt totally uninhibited in the bedroom with her at first.


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## Another Planet (Aug 8, 2012)

Dude psychological trauma especially sexual ends up defining a lot of your life. It's pretty much out of your control. You need a professional outside perspective.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Another Planet said:


> Dude psychological trauma especially sexual ends up defining a lot of your life. It's pretty much out of your control. You need a professional outside perspective.


I have thought about it over the years. The only time that it creeps into my mind is when receiving oral comes into play. That is why I have never sought counseling. Anyways, it ruined my childhood so yes I know how it can define one's life.

This is a bit of TMI but it makes me wonder if what I am craving is reassurance from the female in my life. It was my mother that told me to "Shut up and toughen up. Bad things happen to us all. Just suck it up and move on. I do not want to hear another word about it". So instead of spilling the beans, I sucked it up and moved on.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> I have thought about it over the years. The only time that it creeps into my mind is when receiving oral comes into play. That is why I have never sought counseling. Anyways, it ruined my childhood so yes I know how it can define one's life.
> 
> This is a bit of TMI but it makes me wonder if *what I am craving is reassurance from the female in my lif*e. It was my mother that told me to "Shut up and toughen up. Bad things happen to us all. Just suck it up and move on. I do not want to hear another word about it". So instead of spilling the beans, I sucked it up and moved on.


Bingo! Was you abuser a trusted male or a stranger?

Your mother was your secondary abuser. 

It's okay if you feel that it's not impacting your life. It may not be, or it may not be obvious. The way your mom handled it makes me think that she was more traumatizing to you than the abuse.

I think craving a sexually fulfilling relationship is normal and since you are hetero craving that with a woman would also be normal. Men see sex with their wife as reassurance of love. All normal and good.

And you're right, not all CSA are hopelessly damaged. Sometimes individual resiliency can markedly reduce any lasting trauma affects.

It's just that to be emotionally connected, you have to have emotional vulnerability, you have to show feelings that lots of csa's are very uncomfortable with. I think people confuse things and assume PTSD must be present in all CSA. But you can have a warped sense of being in touch with your feelings and not recognize it...though you really don't come off that way in your posts.

Gotta say though, not spilling the beans might have saved you a lot. I would never allow my kids to go through police and court systems. I would take care the problem vigilante style. Yes wrong, but I would not allow another trauma with police and court!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tyler,
The timeline was helpful. Do you want some feedback on how this may have come across to her? 



UOTE=tyler1978;5665777]At first, I would keep probing. Now, I just shut down so that I do not explode with anger. I really do not know what she thinks. 

I have read No Mr. Nice Guy and MMSLP. 

If I do the touching, she seems to like it. I get the smile and the moans of approval when I massage her. She rarely ever touches me if I do not touch her first.[/QUOTE]


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Tyler,
> The timeline was helpful. Do you want some feedback on how this may have come across to her?
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Feel free to give any feedback.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Bingo! Was you abuser a trusted male or a stranger?
> 
> Your mother was your secondary abuser.
> 
> ...


The abuser was an older brother.

As for my mother, she did not want me to tell her. During the summer in which the abuse happened, no one but him and i knew of it. I kept it a secret for two years and when i finally felt safe telling someone, i got shut down by my mother. Instead of letting me confide in her about this terrible ordeal, i got told to toughen up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

That's horrible! As you are about to become a father, can you imagine sacrificing the safety of one child in order to keep the family whole? Makes me wonder though, depending on how old your brother was when he abused you, who had abused him?

You don't have to answer. I shouldn't have brought it up. 

I'm sorry you had that happen to you, went through that.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> That's horrible! As you are about to become a father, can you imagine sacrificing the safety of one child in order to keep the family whole? Makes me wonder though, depending on how old your brother was when he abused you, who had abused him?
> 
> You don't have to answer. I shouldn't have brought it up.
> 
> I'm sorry you had that happen to you, went through that.


He was 16 and i was 9. There was no abuse in his past
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

What was her response when you laid out the 1 year after baby born ultimatum?

My children are teenagers now - but that new baby magic is very strong. I'm not saying you don't deserve a new start. You do. I wonder if she is (probably rightly assuming) that once the baby is born you wont go through with your plans. 

This has nothing to do with your personal resolve but rather the way babies change things.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

MissScarlett said:


> What was her response when you laid out the 1 year after baby born ultimatum?
> 
> My children are teenagers now - but that new baby magic is very strong. I'm not saying you don't deserve a new start. You do. I wonder if she is (probably rightly assuming) that once the baby is born you wont go through with your plans.
> 
> This has nothing to do with your personal resolve but rather the way babies change things.


She was visibly upset and acted like i had ambushed her. I am getting the impression that she does not think that i will follow through. When i asked why she has so little interest, she says, "I don't know".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Upset but hasn't changed a damn thing, right? Ya. That's how you know her being upset is BS.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

She's only upset that she might have to step up to keep you.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Upset but hasn't changed a damn thing, right? Ya. That's how you know her being upset is BS.


I do not want to admit this but you are correct. Still no sex. Still as cold as before
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

This is something I just don't understand. I imagine maybe when people say they don't know what they really mean is they don't care. As in they couldn't care less.

However - if I'm in a marriage and this is the person I intend to grow old with - even if I don't care I understand if my marriage depends on this I better make it important.

If you guys had a great sex life at one point I would think she could recall how things were - compare that to how things are - and then ask herself how this happened. 

I do all kinds of dumbass things for my family members - and its not because its necessarily important TO ME.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Did you go to that web site yet? Did you print out those questionnaires? Yes, get fired up about but do something.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Did you go to that web site yet? Did you print out those questionnaires? Yes, get fired up about but do something.


_Posted via Mobile Device_

I have but she is already passed out for the night. It looks promising


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

IC is important because the situation you are presently in is damaging to you. And it is going to get more so after your child is born.

You can try to cope the best way you know how, which has gotten you this far. Or, you can get the help of a good counselor who has studied and trained for years, and helped many people deal with what you are up against.

Setting aside the burden on your emotional well-being, the damage to your relation that is accumulating from your seperateness will be fatal to your relationship if it goes on long enough. If you both get off your uncomfortably numb behinds sooner than that, you may still find there is irreversible damage.

The rate of damage occurring will increase greatly as child rearing begins. It has been fourteen years since that momentous change in our lives, and I am not sure we will ever get ahead and reconnect for any significant length of time.

You are a bright person. TAM folks can be wise and helpful. But the benefits of all that can be amplified by having a GOOD counselor, and if you want to reverse the downward trend, why wouldn't you try everything?


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## RaiderGirl (Jul 3, 2013)

Dude you need MMSL:The primer by Athol Kay . Really get it NOW.

What does not work:
talking
trying to wait it out thinking she'll miss it and come to you
forcing yourself on her
begging
anger
pouting
bribery with chores, gifts, flowers.
Ultimatums.

She is not attracted to you. If she was she would F8ck you. She may love you but you dont rock her boat. You use to... but not anymore. Read Athol Kays book and save yourself alot of heartache. The plan is about 1 month of action for every year of marriage.

Oh by the way, if she is unhealthy ( hormones, depression, illness) nothing works except addressing that first.

Good luck friend.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

RaiderGirl said:


> Dude you need MMSL:The primer by Athol Kay . Really get it NOW.
> 
> What does not work:
> talking
> ...


I have read it and use some of what it advises. It is good stuff but has not helped yet
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tyler,
That age gap is frightening. Totally predatory. The theme here is rejection. You went to your main caregiver for love, support and help - and she rejected you. That is very sad. 





tyler1978 said:


> He was 16 and i was 9. There was no abuse in his past
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Raider Girl said: "She is not attracted to you. If she was she would F8ck you."

This isn't true and this is why MMSL is not for everyone. Tyler's wife is truly LD. She has little to no sex drive. She is not going to f*ck him whether she is attracted to him or not. Sometimes the MMSL plan and advice works, but if a wife is going to keep f*cking her husband, it means she HAS a sex drive. This wife does NOT have one. So even if Tyler could cause a sudden spike of desire by increasing her attraction, it will not last. Some people just aren't that sexual and never will be other than for brief periods of time in the beginning of a relationship.

Now that Tyler's story has unfolded a bit more, it is clear that this relationship wasn't even very sexual in the beginning.

I actually have been encouraging Tyler to go ahead and make his ultimatum, so that his wife would know he is planning to leave and she could have a chance to fix things before it was too late. But even though I encouraged that, I really don't think she will make those changes. She has NO sex drive.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Tyler,
> That age gap is frightening. Totally predatory. The theme here is rejection. You went to your main caregiver for love, support and help - and she rejected you. That is very sad.


It makes me sound weak and like I have Mommy issues but maybe that is what is going on. I am seeking companionship and comfort in a female and getting rejected. And just like before, I am shutting down and moving on.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> It makes me sound weak and like I have Mommy issues but maybe that is what is going on. I am seeking companionship and comfort in a female and getting rejected. And just like before, I am shutting down and moving on.


I don't see how what you are facing now makes you seem weak. Nor do I see mommy issues. You, rightfully, want love and affection from your wife who is rejecting you. In response, you have set a time limit to getting on the same page and expressed what you want and need. Not weak, not begging, not whining. Straight up asserting yourself. Healthy, good, the way we are supposed to work.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

MEM,

I am going to respond to your questions over here instead of on the other thread so to keep it more linear. 

"*Tyler,
Months ago I posted some stuff that unintentionally hit a nerve with you. You told me not to make assumptions. 

Let me try a different approach this time. 

The economy has been bad for a while. Even more so for folks early and late in their careers. Sounds like it has been tough on you. 

While dating/engaged did your wife develop strong 'provider/financial' expectations? 

Have you two ever discussed whether she feels resentment about your results and/or her perception as to how intensely you are attempting to get your career back on track? 

I got the impression (perhaps incorrectly) from an earlier post of yours, that your financial setbacks and her loss of interest happened at about the same time. "*

The income disparity started in early 2009 and her loss of interest in sex followed next year. 

We have never talked about her having resentment about my results and such. Usually, I am the one who complains about it. 

When we were dating, I was working full time making about 80% of what she did while going to school full time. I was fired from that job in early 2009 and decided to focus on school just to get it over with. Between that time and summer 2010, I worked some odd jobs. So, she has been the main provider for most of our time together. It bothers me but I have been doing my best to fix it. Our current location offers very little opportunity in my field. I do not want to move but it may have to happen.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The end game may be more appealing if you set out to financially ruin her on purpose rather than try to fix the un-fixable. $1k a month is a lot of money...

If she's expecting you to provide child care you have a leverage. If you're not working or are underemployed child support may not be a big issue depending on state laws. 

Write out a few scenarios (working, not working, school) and have a consult with a divorce lawyer. Try to introduce emotional abuse into the picture preferably as a way to win over a judge - at least investigate the option -

The problem here is that once you bring out this option you need to execute, and also that she will see it as blackmail. As such I would expedite things way early and bail as soon as practicable.

If you don't mind, how is she behaving with other people? Do they find her a reasonable person or someone off the wall? How does she present to others, esp people of authority? Any work issues related to this?


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

john117 said:


> The end game may be more appealing if you set out to financially ruin her on purpose rather than try to fix the un-fixable. $1k a month is a lot of money...
> 
> If she's expecting you to provide child care you have a leverage. If you're not working or are underemployed child support may not be a big issue depending on state laws.
> 
> ...


With the rest of the world, she is super nice, friendly, and helpful. 

Most people see her as being very reasonable. 

She has a respect for authority. She comes from a conservative Nazarene family that were mostly educators. 

It has only been three days since I laid down the ultimatum so I am not sure if there have been any repercussions. 

It seems as if she is this way with them and then comes home and I get the passionless, blah side of her.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

In short, what i am craving is not a certain quantity. I want to see, hear, and feel desire on her part. Once a week, once a day, whatever, Instead of it feeling like we are doing the dishes. Something that had to be done eventually and so let's get it done and over with so we can move on to better things. Sex with your spouse should not be this way.

The baby is going to pose a rather large challenge but if she wants this to last, she is going to have to step it up.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

tyler1978 said:


> With the rest of the world, she is super nice, friendly, and helpful.
> 
> Most people see her as being very reasonable.
> 
> ...


Tyler, how does your upbringing and background differ from your wife's? Do you have a similar type of background (Nazarene, SBC, non-denominational, etc)? Maybe the issue with your wife isn't so much that she lost her physical attraction to you because you lost your job and are going to school while she supports the family. Maybe instead, she does not see you as the head of the household anymore. It may not look like there is a distinction, but there is. The former is something that can happen to anyone regardless of their background where - higher earner is sexy while poorer man is a "loser" who deserves no sex. In the latter case, the head of the household is supposed to be the man, and if the man is not doing the things that are the responsibility of the head of the household, then it becomes "unbiblical" in her eyes. You are possibly rocking her world and how she understands the way it's supposed to work.

Regarding the MMSLP, I would have thought this would have reinforced the "head of the household" type of mindset. But, if you are not pushing the spiritual component of the head of household, then she may think you are shirking your duties and hence "giving up" the mantel of being the head of the household. IDK, just throwing some things out there to consider.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Tyler, how does your upbringing and background differ from your wife's? Do you have a similar type of background (Nazarene, SBC, non-denominational, etc)? Maybe the issue with your wife isn't so much that she lost her physical attraction to you because you lost your job and are going to school while she supports the family. Maybe instead, she does not see you as the head of the household anymore. It may not look like there is a distinction, but there is. The former is something that can happen to anyone regardless of their background where - higher earner is sexy while poorer man is a "loser" who deserves no sex. In the latter case, the head of the household is supposed to be the man, and if the man is not doing the things that are the responsibility of the head of the household, then it becomes "unbiblical" in her eyes. You are possibly rocking her world and how she understands the way it's supposed to work.
> 
> Regarding the MMSLP, I would have thought this would have reinforced the "head of the household" type of mindset. But, if you are not pushing the spiritual component of the head of household, then she may think you are shirking your duties and hence "giving up" the mantel of being the head of the household. IDK, just throwing some things out there to consider.


I am an atheist. I come from a poor, working class background. I am the only college graduate EVER on my mother's side of the family. Her family is educated, spiritual, and middle-class. My side of the puzzle is poor, paycheck-to-paycheck, and a bit like that of Duck Dynasty.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

So she first saw a man that pulled himself out of the gutter of dysfunction and was making a life for himself. Can she not see that same man now? Have circumstances changed you?


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> So she first saw a man that pulled himself out of the gutter of dysfunction and was making a life for himself. Can she not see that same man now? Have circumstances changed you?


Those are good questions. It is possible that she thought that I was on the upward trajectory when we met and since then I have leveled out. School is finally over and I have three degrees (including a Masters) but I make virtually nothing. It is not for lack of effort. 

I am even more energetic than when we met. I am the one who can't sit still. If one of us is upbeat, odds are it is me that is. 

Let me think about those.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

tyler1978 said:


> I am an atheist.


I'm afraid I don't have any helpful advice here. I do have sympathy though.

My own marriage is liberal, Jewish agnostic (Me) married to conservative Christian fundamentalist (Her)

Like you, I've been perplexed at times by what comes across (To me) as outright apathy in the face of important issues in the marriage. 

I suspect this might just be a coping mechanism that is more common with deeply religious persons. If they don't really know what to do about something, they put it on a back-burner rather than face it, apparently in the hope that things will somehow miraculously fix themselves.


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## Another Planet (Aug 8, 2012)

Yeah I'm starting to think religious people and non-religious people really should not be together. I'm a complete atheist, I get along with religious people but I can't handle being with one. It's like their moral teachings have not taught them how to be good but how to get away with being bad.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If an opinion is made it is made. I have four college degrees and make about 15% more than my wife does. I've never been downsized or threatened - having a very unique skill set helps - but all the same because I am not a workaholic I am seen as a "lazy European socialist l" type :rofl: rather than someone who has figured out how to produce 50 hours worth of work in 35 hours a week. My wife despite 3 degrees always makes 70 hours work out of 40 hours worth of work. 

Once such perceptions are formed you could become the next Chairman of the Federal Reserve and her opinion will not change. People will not see what they dot want to see...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tyler,
That wasn't what I meant at all. My comment was solely about the negative intensity of that experience. I don't see you as weak at all. 

Any man on here would tell you that it is very, very painful to love someone who suddenly stops loving you back. I believe you have been patient, resourceful and determined.  





tyler1978 said:


> It makes me sound weak and like I have Mommy issues but maybe that is what is going on. I am seeking companionship and comfort in a female and getting rejected. And just like before, I am shutting down and moving on.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> tyler1978 said:
> 
> 
> > I am an atheist.
> ...


This is me. Agnostic married to fundamentalist christian. She will not address issues head on ... but our marriage and my salvation is on her churches prayer list every Sunday.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## MicroStorm (Aug 10, 2012)

tyler1978 said:


> Fall 2012-Graduate school complete. *Fertility treatments to start in May 2013.*


Your whole story is so sad, and as you know, I can somewhat relate, though my wife isn't nearly as asexual as yours.

The above caught my eye, though. Is there any reason why she needed to start fertility treatment in order for her to get pregnant? Most often, fertility treatments are seen as a last-ditch effort to conceive. If you've never had sex all that often, then obviously the chances of getting pregnant are pretty slim, and most doctors would be checking her natural fertility and suggest you have regular sexual activity before even considering fertility treatment (not to mention the high cost of such treatments). Instead, it seems like she used fertility treatment as the first-and-only option for conceiving a child. How old are the two of you?

Was your wife sexual at all before she met you? You mentioned her religious upbringing... how many of her prior lovers do you know of? Also, I know we're beating a dead-horse here, but is there any chance at all she could be in a long-term ongoing affair?

That said, how has her demeanor changed with the pregnancy? Is she excited, more compassionate, and has her mood changed at all for the better in general?

As for your other options, I guess I'd do anything in my power to better myself and become more self-reliant. Until you have a job that you can use to support yourself she's always going to have her tenterhooks into you. Have you looked for work in other locations or considered relocating (even if that means leaving her behind??)? I hate to suggest that as an option, but after years of endless effort on your part, you really might need to start thinking of an exit strategy.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

MicroStorm said:


> Your whole story is so sad, and as you know, I can somewhat relate, though my wife isn't nearly as asexual as yours.
> 
> The above caught my eye, though. Is there any reason why she needed to start fertility treatment in order for her to get pregnant? Most often, fertility treatments are seen as a last-ditch effort to conceive. If you've never had sex all that often, then obviously the chances of getting pregnant are pretty slim, and most doctors would be checking her natural fertility and suggest you have regular sexual activity before even considering fertility treatment (not to mention the high cost of such treatments). Instead, it seems like she used fertility treatment as the first-and-only option for conceiving a child. How old are the two of you?
> 
> ...


I am 35 and she is 31.

We went the route of fertility treatments because she was not ovulating. Come to find out, she had Poly cystic ovarian syndrome and was not producing enough progesterone.

She was a virgin before being with me. She had one two-month long relationship when she was 19 and that was it. The boyfriend there is a very insecure but very religious type. We very reasonable sexual until mid-2010.

Being pregnant has made her a tad unpredictable. Other than that she is always tired and having heartburn. The pregnancy has not been all that rough for her. Overall, not much change.

I am starting to look for work in other areas. I really like where we are at but at 35, I need to make a decision.


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## MicroStorm (Aug 10, 2012)

tyler1978 said:


> I am 35 and she is 31.
> 
> We went the route of fertility treatments because she was not ovulating. Come to find out, _she had Poly cystic ovarian syndrome and was not producing enough progesterone_.


Would this have anything medically to do with her asexuality?



> I am starting to look for work in other areas. I really like where we are at but at 35, I need to make a decision.


Unfortunately, you're a bit of a conundrum right now, sorry to hear. Many employers sadly will not hire a "new hire" at age 35, as you'll be designated as "too old". I don't like it, but it's the unfortunate world we live in. Also, with the economy heading in its next leg down of this depression any quarter now, you have an uphill battle ahead of you. Sorry to be blunt.

I seriously hope you can find something, somewhere that pays a living wage. At least this will give you some options. Right now you're handcuffed by her, and she pretty much knows you won't leave because dealing her BS is better than being homeless, sad to say. What are you doing now for work? What about before you met her (you must have been in your mid- to late-20s)? What region of the US do you live in?


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

MicroStorm said:


> Would this have anything medically to do with her asexuality?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At the moment, I work for a nonprofit running their volunteer tax program. The pay is $13K per year. This job is more about having something applicable to put on the resume than anything else. In my 20's, I mostly worked manual labor and service jobs. No defined career arc. My main obstacle is the lack of applicable job experience. I am seeking to become an analyst but that has been a battle so far.

I live in Nevada which is the worst job market in America. 

If I was to move out today, I would be living below the poverty line. That may have to happen but only time will tell.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

When someone responds to a question with "I don't know", it sometimes helps to calmly follow up with: "Well, if you had to guess, what would it be?"

It often yields a thread worth pulling on.


But if that fails, especially repeatedly, I am prone to say "How can you stand not knowing?!" And maybe add "I for one am having a hard time not knowing, and it incredibly worse seeing you doing absolutely nothing to help figure out what you don't know. Sometimes when someone is alienated from their true thoughts and feelings, there is a subconscious motivation to keep things just out of awareness... Because in someway, the truth is uncomfortable or threatening. This is our life, dammit -- which includes my life and very soon our child's -- and if we can't get uncomfortable truths out on the table, then we are doomed."

It seems defeating to let "I don't know" be a conversation ender. It is an evasion tactic.


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## RaiderGirl (Jul 3, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Raider Girl said: "She is not attracted to you. If she was she would F8ck you."
> 
> This isn't true and this is why MMSL is not for everyone. Tyler's wife is truly LD. She has little to no sex drive. She is not going to f*ck him whether she is attracted to him or not. Sometimes the MMSL plan and advice works, but if a wife is going to keep f*cking her husband, it means she HAS a sex drive. This wife does NOT have one. So even if Tyler could cause a sudden spike of desire by increasing her attraction, it will not last. Some people just aren't that sexual and never will be other than for brief periods of time in the beginning of a relationship.
> 
> ...


*Perhaps you are correct in that low drive and non-attraction are different but I still think that low attraction can be on of the causes of low drive. "The relationship was not very sexual to begin with" OMG why marry this person? Did you think they would change? Did you change...as in now you want it more? If she is truely very LD sex is a burden which she does not care to bear so he is forced to live without it. So I change my comment, if you believe whole heartedly that she will not change then you must. By change i mean change your situation. Tell her
you cant live sexless . Take off your wedding ring. Move into the guest room. Prepare your exit.*


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

RaiderGirl said:


> *Perhaps you are correct in that low drive and non-attraction are different but I still think that low attraction can be on of the causes of low drive. "The relationship was not very sexual to begin with" OMG why marry this person? Did you think they would change? Did you change...as in now you want it more? If she is truely very LD sex is a burden which she does not care to bear so he is forced to live without it. So I change my comment, if you believe whole heartedly that she will not change then you must. By change i mean change your situation. Tell her
> you cant live sexless . Take off your wedding ring. Move into the guest room. Prepare your exit.*


*

For 3 years, we had a healthy sex life. 2-3 times a week and she was into it. When i started grad school, the draught started. Honestly, i wanted it more than ever for the last two years. Recently, my resolve has worn down.
Posted via Mobile Device*


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

You mentioned she felt ambushed by your ultimatum. What specifically did she say? Did she tell you she'd make an effort? Shut down and not say anything? Tell you to F off?


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## RaiderGirl (Jul 3, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> For 3 years, we had a healthy sex life. 2-3 times a week and she was into it. When i started grad school, the draught started. Honestly, i wanted it more than ever for the last two years. Recently, my resolve has worn down.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


At first I posted that she was not attracted to you. Then I took it back because another poster stated she has always been LD but now I read your post on job situation so now I go back to my orginal opinion that she is not attracted to you.

Peope have sexual rankings based on their looks amoung other things. The sexual ranking for men has alot of base on earning power. Why do beautiful women marry ugly rich men? Its complicated but simple at the same time. 

Again I think you need MMSL:The pirmer by Athol Kay. You need a plan, you need to feel more powerful. The less sex you get the more you try to please her and that ends up making you look more whimpy and the cycle never ends. 

Here is some good news.
You are a man. That gives you freedoms and choices that a woman may not have.
You live in the USA. That alone is a ticket to anything.
A fundamentalist Christian believes in female submissive to male. You can use that to your advantage. Read some material on the concept. 

Get a plan , stick to you, remake your world. You can do it sugar and I cheer you on.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Revenge and/or mutual destruction are far more entertaining than conjuring up a plan that could increase sex in the short term and poison the relationship long term. Fundamentalists don't change (my wife was raised in a theocracy I oughta know - good luck trying to make her understand the teenage mind...)

If more marriages dissolved with a bang as opposed to having to deal with stuff like those maybe in a couple generations people would put some more thought in selecting a mate. The current system rewards a failed marriage far more than it punishes it so why bother?


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> You mentioned she felt ambushed by your ultimatum. What specifically did she say? Did she tell you she'd make an effort? Shut down and not say anything? Tell you to F off?


Here is a paraphrased version of the conversation.

"So, Sunday morning how can we have a sequel of that?"

"I am not sure. It just sounded good"

"But, you were so into it. How can you not know what was triggering that"

"It was just random and so I went with it"

"Why does this feeling not come more often"

"I do not know"

A little while later...

"You know that I am unhappy with our current sex life"

"yeah.... I know" Audible sigh on her part. 

Next, I laid down the ultimatum

"I feel totally ambushed. You are not given me much of a chance. Pregnancy hormones, always being tired, working 50 hours a week."

"Have you ever thought about seeing if you have physical issues such as low T or low iron count?"

"You have brought this up before. I will try to get in. Being a teacher does not allow you to just leave whenever you want. What exactly do you want?"

"I want a sex life that is more than just something that you do once a month because that is what married couples do. If you do not want me, let me know and I will move on. Been poor before, no big adjustment there".

"You are a good man. I just am never in the mood. It takes too much energy."

In short, she came up with excuses and at the end said that she would see if she had low T levels or whatever. That may have to wait til after the pregnancy.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

MMSLP is good stuff but it has not been the miracle cure yet.

For example, I took the advice that I need to get more hobbies. Done. I also need to be unapologetic about them. Check. Instead of arranging a time and a day that works best for both of us, I just do it. Done. On random Saturdays, I get up at 7 am and go on a 80-mile bike ride to wherever and do not tell anybody anything. I just go and enjoy it. The result on her end: nothing. "Oh, you are home....good to know". And life then goes on just like it did before I walked in the door. The benefits to me are quite numerous. Health, enjoyment, etc. I am being unapologetically individual and genuinely am not looking for approval from anybody. It is pretty manly (in my opinion) to ride 80 miles on a bike to the middle of nowhere and not be about ready to pass out. I have improved myself and yet life goes on just like it did before.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Better yet, join a local club or shop ride. Co ed. I do that all the time.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

May be I'm old fashioned here but 80 mile bike rides achieve only two goals in this context, time away from activities like a good job search - out of state and so on - and time away from home and confrontation. Tyler could pedal to Louisville for all he cares and upon return he would have burned off a bunch of energy and still be in square one.

I've run several job searches for my wife - we live in a large Midwestern city - and it is very time consuming even when opportunities are plentiful. Instead of being frustrated about physical intimacy I'd punt and focus on getting a job elsewhere STAT. 

I apologize for the bluntness but oftentimes sex has to take the back seat in lieu of more pressing issues. As his wife has considerably better job mobility i would focus on finding another and moving to a larger area where she can find a job as a teacher. If that is not in the cards and she would not hear of moving, then it's time to move on. 

Think several moves ahead, my friend. Assign probabilities and values in individual outcomes and take it from there. Draw out the different scenarios and see what maximizes long term gain...


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

john117 said:


> May be I'm old fashioned here but 80 mile bike rides achieve only two goals in this context, time away from activities like a good job search - out of state and so on - and time away from home and confrontation. Tyler could pedal to Louisville for all he cares and upon return he would have burned off a bunch of energy and still be in square one.
> 
> I've run several job searches for my wife - we live in a large Midwestern city - and it is very time consuming even when opportunities are plentiful. Instead of being frustrated about physical intimacy I'd punt and focus on getting a job elsewhere STAT.
> 
> ...


I will have a much better idea about my financial/job situation come spring. I do not want to wait but that may be what i have to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> When someone responds to a question with "I don't know", it sometimes helps to calmly follow up with: "Well, if you had to guess, what would it be?"
> 
> It often yields a thread worth pulling on.
> 
> ...


That is the frustration in all of this. Besides rare and unsatisfying sex, i get stonewalled. In a perfect world, i would force the answers out of her. However, that does not happen. I cant say how bad i want to know why she has lost interest but as of yet not much can be gleaned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Interesting tidbit to add, 

I asked her tonight about whether she really she wanted it or not when she has initiated this year. Her answer, "Not really. I figure that it is what married couples do. You are making no effort and so I thought that I should."

That was not music to my ears.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

tyler1978 said:


> Interesting tidbit to add,
> 
> I asked her tonight about whether she really she wanted it or not when she has initiated this year. Her answer, "Not really. I figure that it is what married couples do. You are making no effort and so I thought that I should."
> 
> That was not music to my ears.


I don't know nevada laws but for the most part while you are looking for a job she will be paying you some form of alimony.

Go see an attorney out there and know your options.
Get educated on this.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

tyler1978 said:


> Interesting tidbit to add,
> 
> I asked her tonight about whether she really she wanted it or not when she has initiated this year. Her answer, "Not really. I figure that it is what married couples do. You are making no effort and so I thought that I should."
> 
> That was not music to my ears.


What does she mean by you are making no effort? Are you putting the moves on her? Or does that have to wait until spring too?


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> What does she mean by you are making no effort? Are you putting the moves on her? Or does that have to wait until spring too?


From mid-2010 to the end of 2012, I initiated often and was rejected 99% of the time. What was disturbing was that when she rejected me, she did it with such indifference. It was of the attitude, "Oh.... you're here. Hmmm... that is good to know". January 2013, I made a new years resolution that I would cease all effort and see if there was any change in her. I was hoping that she would tire of my ignoring her. For the most part, she has not. The four times that she has initiated this year, she admitted were more duty than desire.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Ya I definitely get that. We men are nothing if not trainable. Then when you finally give up you get blamed for not trying. That's called a fitness test. You read about it in mmslp. That was an opportunity for you to shut that crap down.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Ya I definitely get that. We men are nothing if not trainable. Then when you finally give up you get blamed for not trying. That's called a fitness test. You read about it in mmslp. That was an opportunity for you to shut that crap down.


Precisely. I was not going to keep begging just to get rejected over and over again. I figured that if I pulled away, she would get tired of it. I do not text, flirt, email, nothing. From 6 am to 7 pm, I have no contact with her and she has yet to complain about that. We get home and she is fine being an island to herself. My lack of touching, kissing, massaging, telling her she's beautiful, etc. seemingly has no effect.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

tyler1978 said:


> At the moment, I work for a nonprofit running their volunteer tax program. The pay is $13K per year. This job is more about having something applicable to put on the resume than anything else. In my 20's, *I mostly worked manual labor and service jobs.* No defined career arc. My main obstacle is the lack of applicable job experience. I am seeking to become an analyst but that has been a battle so far.
> 
> *I live in Nevada which is the worst job market in America*


I've seen worse unemployment rates in my time and have always held some kind of job. Some I hated, but so be it...

Unemployment Rates for States

9.3% currently. That means 90.7% ARE working. You are the minority. How does that feel? 

Keep your current job, go back to those manual jobs, service jobs, take a 2nd and 3rd job. There are many people that won't do those jobs and they are available. 

Improve your life and SHOW her that you're willing to do anything to help contribute to the household! 

How do you think she feels when working 50 hours a week and you're _waiting until things get better?_

Never wait, Tyler! It's a waste of time. 

I _suspect_ this may be the issue and she may not even know it consciously.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

T&T said:


> I've seen worse unemployment rates in my time and have always held some kind of job. Some I hated, but so be it...
> 
> Unemployment Rates for States
> 
> ...


While I get the point you are trying to make, this is also a misleading statement too. That unemployment rate is based only upon those who are actively seeking jobs. There is another rate that would include all able bodied adults who are seeking a job plus who have also gave up or left the labor market. The real unemployment rate is probably around 15%. Add in people who are underemployed and/or working part time jobs and the rate jumps to around 20%+ So while yes, in reality about 80% or more able bodied adults have some type of employment, it's not as good as you make it out to be either.

But the point that I think Tyler finds himself in is that there is a distinct point in time where his wife lost her attraction. That happened when he lost his job and decided to go to school. When a man loses that "bread winner" role in the family, it does result in the woman losing desire for her husband to a certain extent (depending on the woman and their situation). Add on top of that the notion that this woman is still very religious and has came from a culture where the husband is the head of the household. I think it can short circuit a hardcore bible thumping Christian woman when her man appears to have abdicated the "head of the household" role and is her dependent. I think this can screw with a woman like this more so than a more normal woman.

Tyler, I think your wife has accepted your views spiritually, but I don't think she can or will accept you not fulfilling the role of the "Christian man/father/husband" from a "cultural" point of view. I guess this is how I interpret it. I may not be coming across very clear here.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> While I get the point you are trying to make, this is also a misleading statement too. That unemployment rate is based only upon those who are actively seeking jobs. There is another rate that would include all able bodied adults who are seeking a job plus who have also gave up or left the labor market. The real unemployment rate is probably around 15%. Add in people who are underemployed and/or working part time jobs and the rate jumps to around 20%+ So while yes, in reality about 80% or more able bodied adults have some type of employment, it's not as good as you make it out to be either.
> 
> But the point that I think Tyler finds himself in is that there is a distinct point in time where his wife lost her attraction. That happened when he lost his job and decided to go to school. When a man loses that "bread winner" role in the family, it does result in the woman losing desire for her husband to a certain extent (depending on the woman and their situation). Add on top of that the notion that this woman is still very religious and has came from a culture where the husband is the head of the household. I think it can short circuit a hardcore bible thumping Christian woman when her man appears to have abdicated the "head of the household" role and is her dependent. I think this can screw with a woman like this more so than a more normal woman.
> 
> Tyler, I think your wife has accepted your views spiritually, but I don't think she can or will accept you not fulfilling the role of the "Christian man/father/husband" from a "cultural" point of view. I guess this is how I interpret it. I may not be coming across very clear here.


I think you made your point much better than myself. I do suspect this is what it is as well.

I get that there are more unemployed. I've always used that number though. No one knows how many aren't working for sure. But, I've never been out of work for long. Again, some jobs sucked but you have to do what you have to do. It also shows determination and leadership. Something that would benefit Tyler very much, I'm thinking.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

T&T said:


> I've seen worse unemployment rates in my time and have always held some kind of job. Some I hated, but so be it...
> 
> Unemployment Rates for States
> 
> ...


I am working so not sure what your point is. There is a bit more to the story but it is better left alone. It is a bit of a convoluted mess. I have reasons for not taking a second job. One of them is not laziness. I worked full time while doing undergraduate studies full time for 7 years so determination is not lacking in my case. 

17 years of mostly manual labor jobs have left me with a resume that does not win over prospective employers. This current job is how I intend to fix that. I have to wait til after tax season is over to obtain the results which will serve as the launching off point. It is a position where 8 months out of the year, it is pretty mellow and January-April corridor is chaotic.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

T&T said:


> I think you made your point much better than myself. I do suspect this is what it is as well.
> 
> I get that there are more unemployed. I've always used that number though. No one knows how many aren't working for sure. But, I've never been out of work for long. Again, some jobs sucked but you have to do what you have to do. It also shows determination and leadership. Something that would benefit Tyler very much, I'm thinking.


I worked for 17 years doing jobs that most people would say, "sucked". I have only been out of work for six month in the last 19 years and have missed 6 days due to injury/illness. 

In my pursuit of a job in my desired field, I have learned that taking manual labor jobs that do not directly apply to my field can be a hindrance. I have been to countless interviews where one of the main questions is how does being a janitor relate to being an economist/analyst. What skills did I learn from being an unloader at Wal-Mart that will help me at being a financial analyst. 

My first urge is to go out and find work at a warehouse (which they are a multitude of them here). At every stop in my job career, I have became well known for being energetic, determined, and dependable. However, if I ever intend to finish the journey I have to practice patience and let this latest position pan out.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

ChargingCharlie said:


> Tyler, your situation sounds a bit like mine (except that we're over 10 years older than you). Had a pretty good sex life up to about 3-4 years ago, and now it's been three times in the last three years. You're more forward with your wife than I am. I don't even bring it up, as all I hear from her is how tired she is, how she has a massive headache (I'm not smart, but maybe drinking nothing but diet soda has something to do with that). Granted, we have two little kids, but that's not an excuse. In her world, sex is a chore. This is why I don't even try to initiate. If I did, she would either give me "I'm too tired, can we do it tomorrow" and never follow through, or give in and just lay there waiting for me to finish.
> 
> It's not going to get any better as time goes on, especially with children. Best to realize that now (which you've done) and move along if things don't improve and you deem it in your best interest to leave.


My main fear is that I will become numb to it and just stay with her just because it is comfortable. I have already started to not care if I get laid. To think about just coasting through on auto-pilot is not good enough.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

FYI I'm a partner in a CPA firm and I agree with your strategy for the next year. I generally look down on resumes for professionals who split their time and interest. Oh by the way, we're in the market for a tax pro. Just saying.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> FYI I'm a partner in a CPA firm and I agree with your strategy for the next year. I generally look down on resumes for professionals who split their time and interest. Oh by the way, we're in the market for a tax pro. Just saying.


This latest stop on the career path has been a test of my patience like few other things. It drives me insane to not pursue better things but I know that if I am ever going to make the leap from kid from the trailer park with a degree to paid professional, this has to be done. 

I do income taxes for a living but my degrees are all in economics. Would that be a deterrent?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

We look for people with the right mix of expertise and imagination. Your background would help give you the ability to put tax decisions into context (ie the bigger economic picture). That said, a non CPA in a CPA firm is career limited. You could never make partner.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I wish the problem was obvious, and someone here could tell you what it was, because obviously you are not lazy, you have a track record of working hard and rising above wherever it was you started yesterday, and you are introspective and honest enough to find ways to work on you.

Re. career situations and whether that is a factor, I will say anything is possible. Sounds like there is much for you to be proud of already and in time there will be even more. Thought I was the same, until in anger my wife complained that I was not ambitious enough nor did I make enough. Logically, i knew she was full of sh1t, but I also realized she believed it -- because that narrative put the blame for many things on me including her unhappiness, and that felt better to her than searching for the truth. Emotionally, it was a punch in the gut one still hurts ten years later.

Btw, I'm very bitter about that one (can you tell? ). Don't let me get started.

I do worry when I hear someone is acting differently for the worse -- withdrawing and withholding -- but when asked what is going on or what are they feeling all they can muster is "I don't know." It's awfully easy to get anything and everything dumped on you when standing close to someone like that.

Not sure how to prevent it.q


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

She is expecting, right? (Hope I'm not confusing threads.)

Some things I am thinking/wondering for better or worse, and none of my business...

Being pregnant has got to be scary for her, unless she is 200% committed to all that it means and has wanted it all of her life.

Do you ever talk to her about what she is feeling about the future -- the responsibility, the inescapable responsibility, the doors that will be closing to her, and how she fears you might fail her or abandon her?

How do her parents feel about you?

Is she ok with your view of religion?

Is there anything she might be resenting you for (regardless of whether resentment is justified)?

Do you think she feels like you are being supportive and seeing how she feels?

Does she live close enough to family they can help out with giving her (and you) some time off early on to rest and later on to go on dates together.

(Gee, if I have got the wrong thread that was all way off!)


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> She is expecting, right? (Hope I'm not confusing threads.)
> 
> Some things I am thinking/wondering for better or worse, and none of my business...
> 
> ...


Yes, she is expecting.

About the future, a few things have came up. One, is the possibility of my being a SAHD. Two, possibility of having to move away from Nevada. Three, now that I have laid down the ultimatum the possibility of going our own ways but still living under the same roof in order to pay the house off sooner. I do not think that she feels that I will really follow through.

We live about 7 hours from our families. Close but not close enough sometimes. 

Her parents and I have a great relationship.

As of yet, she seems to have no issues with my atheism. We crossed that bridge on the first contact.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tyler,
If you are good with numbers, consider either:
- Executive tax preparation work (pays well), as you can get into it incrementally by getting a job with HR. Block or liberty tax. They hire like mad in the fall each year and do decent training. If you have an aptitude for it, you can move up fairly fast.
- Spending 10K on a software development training program like Makers Square. A program like that would likely pay for itself in a year by way of higher earnings. 





tyler1978 said:


> At the moment, I work for a nonprofit running their volunteer tax program. The pay is $13K per year. This job is more about having something applicable to put on the resume than anything else. In my 20's, I mostly worked manual labor and service jobs. No defined career arc. My main obstacle is the lack of applicable job experience. I am seeking to become an analyst but that has been a battle so far.
> 
> I live in Nevada which is the worst job market in America.
> 
> If I was to move out today, I would be living below the poverty line. That may have to happen but only time will tell.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Tyler,
> If you are good with numbers, consider either:
> - Executive tax preparation work (pays well), as you can get into it incrementally by getting a job with HR. Block or liberty tax. They hire like mad in the fall each year and do decent training. If you have an aptitude for it, you can move up fairly fast.
> - Spending 10K on a software development training program like Makers Square. A program like that would likely pay for itself in a year by way of higher earnings.


Those are two possibilities that I will keep in mind. Once this position has panned out, the number of possibilities is rather large. I could go in a variety of ways. I really do not want to move but if that is what it comes to then so be it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

tyler...I would suggest you keep bringing it up now and then, maybe once a week, so she knows you aren't going to drop it. Not pushing or demanding, just inquiries as to where her mind is at. 

Like "How have you been feeling since our talk the other day? I know you felt ambushed and I'm sorry about that, but I am here to discuss how we can make things better for both of us. Have you thought about it, other than to get your hormone levels checked?" 

Ask her if she'd be willing to read the Sex Starved Marriage.

If you don't bring it up again, trust me, she will assume you have dropped it.

Although in your mind you think you have hammered this home, I don't believe that she believes you yet. You don't need to hammer it, you just need to be assertive and make it clear in a loving and fair (to both of you) way.

If you think having talks like that are difficult, I can assure you, they are less difficult than a divorce. At this time there is still a chance for her to change this, but only if she knows it really has to be done and that it will be a deal breaker if not. (Again I know you think you already said that but....she still doesn't know, I guarantee it).


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> If you don't bring it up again, trust me, she will assume you have dropped it.


If things don't improve, make sure you start to align your actions with your words. Nothing will undercut you more that complaining about an issue but acting the same as if the issue did not exist. She will "hear" that the issue is really not that big of a deal. Particularly if she believes you will not really leave her.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

tyler1978 said:


> I am working so not sure what your point is. There is a bit more to the story but it is better left alone. It is a bit of a convoluted mess. I have reasons for not taking a second job. *One of them is not laziness*. I worked full time while doing undergraduate studies full time for 7 years so determination is not lacking in my case.
> 
> 17 years of mostly manual labor jobs have left me with a resume that does not win over prospective employers. This current job is how I intend to fix that. I have to wait til after tax season is over to obtain the results which will serve as the launching off point. It is a position where 8 months out of the year, it is pretty mellow and January-April corridor is chaotic.


I wasn't trying to say you were lazy, Tyler. I was trying to encourage you...


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## CouldItBeSo (Mar 11, 2013)

So, she rather watches Grey's Anatomy than has sex with you? Makes me wonder...


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

CouldItBeSo said:


> So, she rather watches Grey's Anatomy than has sex with you? Makes me wonder...


Lately, that has been the story.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If the assumption is that everything else in the marriage is ok and only the sex is bad, sure, the strategy will work. Otherwise I do not think so.

As long as she has the upper hand money wise and attitude wise nothing will be happening: people like those only understand fear to get them out of their comfort zone. Serious fear of both sides being ruined financially in order to avoid a few rolls in the sheets.

This isn't a case like Anon and her partner where an ultimatum may be all that is needed to get the marital juices flowing. This is a cold calculating person that was turned off to her partner purely due to financial considerations. There's no turning back, period. 

Mutual Assured Destruction or the threat of same may be needed and even then... Let's see how duty - or good - sex looks like compared to raising a child alone financially, physically, and emotionally.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

john117 said:


> If the assumption is that everything else in the marriage is ok and only the sex is bad, sure, the strategy will work. Otherwise I do not think so.
> 
> As long as she has the upper hand money wise and attitude wise nothing will be happening: people like those only understand fear to get them out of their comfort zone. Serious fear of both sides being ruined financially in order to avoid a few rolls in the sheets.
> 
> ...


What if you start coming home late from work.
Go out a few nights a week.
I'm not saying getting your needs met somewhere else (yet).
Make her start wondering what you are doing.


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## CouldItBeSo (Mar 11, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> Lately, that has been the story.


It's a very popular show among certain ladies. How do I know this? Because my stbxw watches it too. You mentioned she's not interested in oral, kissing etc. just quickie and over. Are you sure she's into men?


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

CouldItBeSo said:


> It's a very popular show among certain ladies. How do I know this? Because my stbxw watches it too. You mentioned she's not interested in oral, kissing etc. just quickie and over. Are you sure she's into men?


I have never inquired but she shows no interest in sex with anybody (male or female). It would be worth keeping my radar up for in the future.


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## CouldItBeSo (Mar 11, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> I have never inquired but she shows no interest in sex with anybody (male or female). It would be worth keeping my radar up for in the future.


Just to be more clear the show has two female main characters that are married, have a child and live together.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

CouldItBeSo said:


> Just to be more clear the show has two female main characters that are married, have a child and live together.


It's possible that she is more into women than men. No evidence of that yet.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

None of that. Some women feel they need to marry a jackpot to be "fulfilled".

Despite earning 15% more than my partner, despite having a job nearly as secure as the Supreme Court, despite more education, and despite making more than her working half the hours, I am not ambitious, hence, I am a loser.

We live in a magnificent 6,000 sq ft home. She envies houses that are 10,000 sq ft one neighborhood over :rofl: I am happy in a 1000 sq ft apartment. She adores her European pseudo SUV - I love my little city car. She loves art (and we have quite a bit of it) while I love lower cost things. Hence a loser. 

Cut your losses now otherwise in 2033 we will be telepathing the rest of your story on TTAM (Telepathic Talk About Marriage)...


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## Another Planet (Aug 8, 2012)

john117 said:


> None of that. Some women feel they need to marry a jackpot to be "fulfilled".
> 
> Despite earning 15% more than my partner, despite having a job nearly as secure as the Supreme Court, despite more education, and despite making more than her working half the hours, I am not ambitious, hence, I am a loser.
> 
> ...


I would marry you for that kind of life, jeebus!!! 0_0


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

I am in a bit of a holding pattern at the moment. Child support, daycare, etc. is a bit dependent on how my employment situation pans out in the Spring.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> If the assumption is that everything else in the marriage is ok and only the sex is bad, sure, the strategy will work. Otherwise I do not think so.
> 
> As long as she has the upper hand money wise and attitude wise nothing will be happening: people like those only understand fear to get them out of their comfort zone. Serious fear of both sides being ruined financially in order to avoid a few rolls in the sheets.
> 
> ...



I have to disagree with the mutual assured destruction. He has a child on the way! Acting in such a destructive way will most assuredly cause her to never gain respect back and life time of hatred between he and the mother of his child. That is insane!

I do put some credit into male provider role. I think a LOT of women do and I also think it's instinctual. Just MHO... Due to Tyler's earning disparity at the moment, maybe his wife has lost her attraction. Maybe she is aware of it and ashamed of it. Maybe she isn't even aware of it

The bottom line is he IS on the right course! He has a career plan. He has future options. He also has a BABY due in a few months. He delivered his ultimatum. He stated his needs and desires and he's giving her time to deal with it, and the pregnancy. 

I think he should follow Faithful Wife's advice and have a serious reminder every so often. 

And for God's sake... Lesbians! I watch a TV show with the lead characters as a lesbian couple!!! Talk about Zebra hunting!

Mr. Pink woke up when he saw that THIS time I really was done. I was no longer angry, just sad that it was over. THATS what doesn't happen in other couples until it really is too late. He never believed I was serious until I really was serious.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I have to disagree with the mutual assured destruction. He has a child on the way! Acting in such a destructive way will most assuredly cause her to never gain respect back and life time of hatred between he and the mother of his child. That is insane!


So be it. And I suppose sticking around and suffering another few decades is a better alternative? 



> I do put some credit into male provider role. I think a LOT of women do and I also think it's instinctual. Just MHO... Due to Tyler's earning disparity at the moment, maybe his wife has lost her attraction. Maybe she is aware of it and ashamed of it. Maybe she isn't even aware of it


Allow me to be skeptical. I have used the terms "evil" and "stupid" to describe situations like those, and I'm afraid she pegs the evil-o-meter (*) She knows what she's doing, and has a purpose behind her actions. 

(*) the terms are used metaphorically 



> The bottom line is he IS on the right course! He has a career plan. He has future options. He also has a BABY due in a few months. He delivered his ultimatum. He stated his needs and desires and he's giving her time to deal with it, and the pregnancy.


I suggested he writes out the possible outcomes with probabilities and result values. I'll be willing to bet that he gets the child care job and that's all she wrote, or baby goes to daycare and he's resented for life for not doing the good parent thing and stay home. That kills any chance of looking for work anywhere in the future and once again that's all she wrote. 



> I think he should follow Faithful Wife's advice and have a serious reminder every so often.


The reminder won't do any good if it isn't backed up by action or the possibility of an action (generally negative).

Again I apologize for being blunt - in my case the fireworks started at year 25 only after some serious mental conditions (BPD) and by then we were too vested in this to go nuclear. He's not. 

Divorce is all about M.A.D. otherwise we'd be having drinks and finger foods at divorce hearings. All I am suggesting is to do it earlier rather than later. 

I would also suspect she would not be receptive to serious MC.... The only condition that would have a chance to prevent M.A.D....


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I agree with you about the child care job.

I don't see her as evil, more on the stupid side of the spectrum. My guess is she is ashamed of the fact that she lost attraction to her husband when she started to support him. I don't see that as evil, but more like stupid.

Yes divorce is all about MAD but they are very young and they have a baby on the way. Being a single Mom would be one hell of a scare for a woman from a fundamentalist family!

And you can't keep comparing your situation to every other sexless marriage on here! You wife has a serious and profound mental illness, the kind that leaves lasting scars on the children, and yet you are still there! How can you advocate a nuclear response when you sit in a toxic waste dump?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Different situations altogether, I'm afraid. You may recall I suggested NOT going nuclear to many - most - other posters, again with different situations. I got 25 good years out of my marriage, and a few more of courtship, which is a lot better than many people seem to get those days. I figure paying a half share of two kids worth of college at 8-12 years each is not a bad sacrifice to make. Plus a profound medical condition like BPD is a lot easier to understand than no medical reason whatsoever. 

Here they're just starting their journey and not only she goes LD HQ )) on him, but the timing and means are both such that I can't fathom "stupid" as the reason. The ultimate litmus test for E or S is simple - agree to MC. If she does, then the stupid-o-meter maxes out, she sees the light, and a procession of unicorns can be seen from Vegas to Reno. This is not the case, I fear. It's all too methodical, too planned, too controlling.

Attraction be damned, btw. I don't look much different - worse - than I did 5 years ago. 20 lbs overweight, Einstein hair, same old same old. My wife, let's just say at mid late 40s she looked damned great - short hair, fashionable, awesome body, the envy of her friends. Today, 5 short years later and despite exercise and diet time, BPD, and her cursed work schedule have really taken a toll on her. If nothing else I should be the one losing attraction, not her.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

She is just LD. She isn't evil or stupid, IMO. She is just LD. She had a normal-looking sex drive for a short time in the beginning of their relationship. This is normal for people with LD, the spike corresponds with that magical 2 - 4 year window of the newness of a relationship. And now that that period is over, she is at her normal...which is very LD. Not quite asexual, but very LD. 

tyler, I do not see your wife as evil, clueless, conniving, or stupid. I just see her as have such a low sex drive that she honestly does NOT desire sex at all, just like she has been telling you every time you ask her. She doesn't know why because there is no answer. Why is her hair brown/blonde/red? It just is.

However...if she wants to keep you, she can make effort and change. That is a big if, and you can only encourage her to make the choice that doesn't end you up in divorce court, but that's all you can do is encourage her. The rest is up to her.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

I am not convinced that she is stupid. Evil, time will tell. In the meantime, i will give her the benefit of the doubt. She did care about our sex life in the past. She just does not now. If i was to lie about our finances, she would be upset. However, if we do not have sex it is meaningless. She has energy,passion, and self awareness for other things but never sex
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Just a reminder, the "evil" and "stupid" terminology has nothing to do with real life behavior. They are simply nomenclature, or shorthand notation to indicate willful behavior or unaware behavior... Nobody is truly E or S. Even the S-est of people has to know their behavior has impact on their partner, and even the most E-est of people will have S traits.

Look for other signs to find out. Respect is the BIG word here. If you think your partner respects you, then it may just be her LD HQ nature as FW indicated above, If you think your voice in the marriage does not count, that's another issue altogether.

As I said, the litmus test is agreeing that something is wrong AND doing something about it. Anything else is conjecture. You're at the point where we don't have enough info and the nuances of an interpersonal relationship to make a call. An MC/therapist does. 

From my own experiences I am naturally suspicious, so I call it with my biases. An MC has none of that, which is the more reason to bring him/her into the dialog. If wife does not want MC, then that's your answer. The rest is for us academicians to figure out.

My own wife is about 25% S, 75% E. The S part is for inability to comprehend what a normal relationship involves (kinda hard, growing up in a country where dating is a really BAD idea as the state sees it) and the E is basically due to her resenting my having my way in a few key decisions during and after The Rapture 5 years ago. Now you know...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Tyler, my wife's not stupid either if we use the accepted definition (phd in applied mathematics, personable with her clients, etc). She's also very into sex when we have it - 2 hours at a time. Except her idea of sex is like going on a vacation, something that should NOT happen too often. Unfortunately, her idea of frequency is about once a month at best, with zero physical contact the rest of the time. 

In the past she did care about sex, we had a decent intimate life for 25 years but after an epic divorce and epic financial ruin of her cousin the rocket scientist (he was a real honest to goodness rocket scientist :rofl she had a momentary understanding of emotional connections, but since The Rapture five years ago sex slowly morphed into her idea that once a month is plenty. Meanwhile, Dr. John here has decided that such sex, while vastly enjoyable momentarily is meaningless in the long term so he basically called it a day and is now spending his emotional energy trying to get Hannah the instrumentation lab co-op fixed up with one of his colleagues twice her age. So far it seems to be working...

I will let you in on a big secret. Two hours worth of sheet-curling sex is great, except the next day you wake up with each other's scent on you and you feel as pee'd off as ever with her for making the whole event feel as meaningful as having your tires rotated. I felt far worse when I realized how meaningless this was and basically stopped any and all references to sex. 

If you think the word rejection hurts, the word meaningless hurts ten times as much.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> I don't see her as evil, more on the stupid side of the spectrum. My guess is she is ashamed of the fact that she lost attraction to her husband when she started to support him. I don't see that as evil, but more like stupid.


She may not even understand it herself. She would not be the first women to intellectually say there is no issue with her being the main breadwinner for a time, yet subconsciously lose her attraction and not understand why. There are a lot of folks out there that don't really understand themselves.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> I have to disagree with the mutual assured destruction. He has a child on the way! Acting in such a destructive way will most assuredly cause her to never gain respect back and life time of hatred between he and the mother of his child. That is insane!/QUOTE]
> 
> Not so fast. I do think those outcomes (the way she will feel about him) likely will happen - but those are largely inevitable. IMO where this is likely to end up is his wife will convince herself he is a total tool for leaving because the sex sucks regardless of how or when he does it.
> 
> ...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

T&T said:


> 9.3% currently. That means 90.7% ARE working. You are the minority. How does that feel?


Oh my goodness - this is so ignorant.

T&T, you did keep in mind that he has a job already, right? That means he is already one of the 90.7% according to how that is calculated - just making sure we're on the same page.

BTW, a more meaningful statistic for this sort of discussion is the work force participation rate for ages 18-65. That is only about 2/3 (and even then Tyler is in the majority).


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

john117 said:


> Tyler, my wife's not stupid either if we use the accepted definition (phd in applied mathematics, personable with her clients, etc). She's also very into sex when we have it - 2 hours at a time. Except her idea of sex is like going on a vacation, something that should NOT happen too often. Unfortunately, her idea of frequency is about once a month at best, with zero physical contact the rest of the time.
> 
> In the past she did care about sex, we had a decent intimate life for 25 years but after an epic divorce and epic financial ruin of her cousin the rocket scientist (he was a real honest to goodness rocket scientist :rofl she had a momentary understanding of emotional connections, but since The Rapture five years ago sex slowly morphed into her idea that once a month is plenty. Meanwhile, Dr. John here has decided that such sex, while vastly enjoyable momentarily is meaningless in the long term so he basically called it a day and is now spending his emotional energy trying to get Hannah the instrumentation lab co-op fixed up with one of his colleagues twice her age. So far it seems to be working...
> 
> ...


Your situation is a bit more severe than mine. That being said, what has bothered me is that it is so meaningless to her at times. The cold, flat,and indifferent tone and way of being is what concerns more than lack of sex.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> Your situation is a bit more severe than mine. That being said, what has bothered me is that it is so meaningless to her at times. The cold, flat,and indifferent tone and way of being is what concerns more than lack of sex.


The last few years have been bad, granted, but as I said, I've gotten my money's worth out of the marriage - literally and figuratively. If you're just starting out things are a lot different and the need for action much more pressing. 

I'm an unabashed video gamer. The first thing I do when I get to a new level is to look for extraction points. A relationship should be no different. Define what the goal for each level or phase is, do the math, and take it from there.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Has she expressed any complaint against you at all?

What have your conflicts and arguments been about before the sexual issues have been present?

Does she take any medicines or have any diagnosed medical conditions, or wonder if maybe she has one?


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> Has she expressed any complaint against you at all?
> 
> What have your conflicts and arguments been about before the sexual issues have been present?
> 
> Does she take any medicines or have any diagnosed medical conditions, or wonder if maybe she has one?


Her primary complaint against me is i do not plan everything out days ahead of time.

She does not take any meds.

Our conflicts mostly center around dealing with my friends and family. She unilaterally dislikes those that are connected to me.

When it comes to sex, she never voices a complaint.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

tyler1978 said:


> Her primary complaint against me is i do not plan everything out days ahead of time.
> 
> She does not take any meds.
> 
> ...


:scratchhead::scratchhead:


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## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Your story hits home to me on so many different levels. Wow! 
I wish I could give you advice but I'd be a hypocrite if I tried. I've been doing this 180 thing everyone on TAM seems to rave about. No luck with that approach. She seems more relaxed and relieved coz now I don't initiate any form of intimacy. Seems like this 180 is going to backfire on my dumb a$$. Then again, I never had and still don't think that me doing a 180 is gna make her want to jump my bones all of a sudden. She's enjoying the peace and quiet way too much. 
Best of luck Tyler. I hope you guys get to resolve things soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

What you want is the 180 with fireworks, defined as an 180 where you also point out all your partner's flaws, behaviors, etc that are unacceptable and start an argument for any reason (but make sure it is a reason that is valid)

That takes them out of their comfort zone and shatters their "peace and quiet"... In other words, before anyone tells me it's childish behavior, sex is one of those things that increases your tolerance to your partners stupid behaviors - we all have them - and call them on these behaviors.... Nothing you wouldn't do with a roommate .

The 180, if nothing else, rewards the non desiring partner for not doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing. It's like trying to avoid drowning in the pool by jumping into an even deeper pool. Of course they will love the 180, there's more time for them to play FarmVille and watch The Voice...

I've said many times that such methods work if the distance between the partners is not large. If it is, they don't seem to be so effective and that's why you see so many posts here about people with ruined intimacy lives for many years... Don't be afraid to argue. Peace is nice but doesn't work in those cases.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

wannabe said:


> Your story hits home to me on so many different levels. Wow!
> I wish I could give you advice but I'd be a hypocrite if I tried. I've been doing this 180 thing everyone on TAM seems to rave about. No luck with that approach. She seems more relaxed and relieved coz now I don't initiate any form of intimacy. Seems like this 180 is going to backfire on my dumb a$$. Then again, I never had and still don't think that me doing a 180 is gna make her want to jump my bones all of a sudden. She's enjoying the peace and quiet way too much.
> Best of luck Tyler. I hope you guys get to resolve things soon.


Hmmm. First, I think it needs to be noted that the 180 is primarily to make yourself less dependent on her and feel better about potentially moving on.

That being said, I'm not sure if you are doing the 180 correctly. It is not about just not bugging her for various forms of affection. It is to pull away across the board - be less present in general without being a jerk.

How long have you been at the 180? It can take a while for the negative impact to really register with her. If it has been several months or a year (or even more), and she still does not seem to care, then I have to wonder how much you brought to the table to begin with (and whether that itself might be the issue).

Just something to consider.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There may be mixing of the 180 for strategic exit purposes vs the NMMNG style temporarily unavailable processes for tactical purposes. 

Even then, by playing cool cucumber in some cases one simply makes it known that sex is officially off the table. In some cases this works but not in seriously damaged emotionally relationships. 

I think that by making it known early and often that the status quo is damaging the emotional health of the marriage and by demonstrating how this damage slowly corrodes a healthy marriage's very foundation, one may create more conflict but at least the other partner can't claim ignorance later as they all do invariably... Whether in front of an MC, a divorce court, or the Almighty...

The trick is to do so without appearing that one is pouting or whining. Just the other day my wife has handing me a coffee mug and of course she puts more effort to avoid being touched (BPD blah blah) than actually safely passing me the cup. Needless to say we dropped the cup. I explained to her that this would never happen at work simply because my team is all used to working with each other and generally like each other and are in sync. At home, plenty of examples where this is not the case due to the lack of connections. Do this at every opportunity - annoying, but eventually they will see the light or will die being even more upset, both good outcomes.


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## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

It never ceases to amaze me that when the HD partner has an issue with not getting enough/any affection in the union from the LD partner, most will almost always jump to the HD partner and try to find fault with him/her. HD partner is, most of the time, bending backwards trying to ignite some form of passion in the LD partner but Mr/Mrs HD is still almost always blamed for not doing enough. 

I've been doing the 180 for around a month now. No change in behavior from her side yet. I feel like such a dumb a$$ at times for putting up with this BS for so long and then still get blamed for not doing enough. The horse was finally bolted for me when she finally, after years of "I don't knows" from her, when she came clean and said she has no desire to have sex. I asked if it's no desire to have sex with me or simply no desire at all. She replied with "no desire at all". That one hit me for a 6. I had no come back. But at least I know that no matter what I do, it's not going to magically give her that drive back. So now I sit; wait; think; numb. Don't know anymore. 
So the mood has been lightened now coz at least I know what's up now. I no longer even want to initiate. Conversation about every day things are easier now at least. 
Sigh***
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

It never ceases to amaze me that when the HD partner has an issue with not getting enough/any affection in the union from the LD partner, most will almost always jump to the HD partner and try to find fault with him/her. HD partner is, most of the time, bending backwards trying to ignite some form of passion in the LD partner but Mr/Mrs HD is still almost always blamed for not doing enough. 

I've been doing the 180 for around a month now. No change in behavior from her side yet. I feel like such a dumb a$$ at times for putting up with this BS for so long and then still get blamed for not doing enough. The horse was finally bolted for me when she finally, after years of "I don't knows" from her, when she came clean and said she has no desire to have sex. I asked if it's no desire to have sex with me or simply no desire at all. She replied with "no desire at all". That one hit me for a 6. I had no come back. But at least I know that no matter what I do, it's not going to magically give her that drive back. So now I sit; wait; think; numb. Don't know anymore. 
So the mood has been lightened now coz at least I know what's up now. I no longer even want to initiate. Conversation about every day things are easier now at least. 
***sigh***
Still waiting on her to say whether she'll see someone about the zero desire issue. If she's not willing to see someone then I don't know. 
Is leaving someone coz she ain't putting out even a thing? So confused.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Conversations are indeed easier. There aren't any, or if they are, they're about very mundane things. 

As to why they are not interested, not a surprise. They have everything they want, the education, the mansion loaded with art, the European pseudo SUV, the career, the trophy children, and every concoction ever made by Estée Lauder. What is getting laid going to add to the list? 

This is the root of the "evil" vs "stupid" theory. Sex does not add status among her friends. The material possessions do. Sex does not go at the end of the name as a title and adds no value to the career. Sex ultimately adds value by improving one's sense of self, something that assumes one's aware of their self, it's worth, and what it's made of.

Sex (or the lack thereof) only has value for the power it yields. Just like electricity has no value by itself, but has immense value for what it can power.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

*Re: Re: Nearly 3 years of Rare but Unsatisfying sex*



wannabe said:


> I asked if it's no desire to have sex with me or simply no desire at all. She replied with "no desire at all". That one hit me for a 6. I had no come back. But at least I know that no matter what I do, it's not going to magically give her that drive back. So now I sit; wait; think; numb. Don't know anymore.
> So the mood has been lightened now coz at least I know what's up now. I no longer even want to initiate. Conversation about every day things are easier now at least.
> ***sigh***
> Still waiting on her to say whether she'll see someone about the zero desire issue. If she's not willing to see someone then I don't know.
> ...


There are many marriages dissolved for reasons significantly related to lack of sex and physical intimacy. The damage that sort of thing can do to the spouse needing that connection is real and painful. And the rot that sets in on the rest of the marriage can be irreversible. Especially if it seems the other just doesn't give a rats a$$ about neglecting the one needing that connection, and either drags feet on the way to seeing professionals about getting help with the problems, or consistently finds fault with the rejected one as she/he withers up and dies inside so as to never ever have to own any part of the problem.

For many of us, sex is more than just a physical manuever. And rejection more than just a "no". And a life too short to waste feeling unloved. (I am still working on that part.)


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

wannabe said:


> It never ceases to amaze me that when the HD partner has an issue with not getting enough/any affection in the union from the LD partner, most will almost always jump to the HD partner and try to find fault with him/her. HD partner is, most of the time, bending backwards trying to ignite some form of passion in the LD partner but Mr/Mrs HD is still almost always blamed for not doing enough.


I don't think that is correct. The advice about change the HD is almost always because the HD partner is the one that does not like how things are going and comes her seeking solutions. Since the only person you can change is yourself, the advice her is based on doing that.



> I've been doing the 180 for around a month now. No change in behavior from her side yet. I feel like such a dumb a$$ at times for putting up with this BS for so long and then still get blamed for not doing enough. The horse was finally bolted for me when she finally, after years of "I don't knows" from her, when she came clean and said she has no desire to have sex. I asked if it's no desire to have sex with me or simply no desire at all. She replied with "no desire at all". That one hit me for a 6. I had no come back. But at least I know that no matter what I do, it's not going to magically give her that drive back. So now I sit; wait; think; numb. Don't know anymore.
> So the mood has been lightened now coz at least I know what's up now. I no longer even want to initiate. Conversation about every day things are easier now at least.
> Sigh***
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As painful as that is, having that information is a good thing. You can now have more knowledge to figure out where you want to go. I won't pretend it is easy, but knowing is always better. I wish you luck.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

When I tried a 180-like approach, it helped my self-esteem. It did not necessarily help my marriage but it cleared the fog on my end. Trying it and seeing it not have the desired result tells you a lot.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Quick update. One decent session during the weekend. Can't complain, it has been three weeks since the last one which sure beats the usual rate. 

About the ultimatum, not much has been said since shortly after. I am starting to pursue jobs in different locales. Nothing to speak of yet but these things take time.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> Quick update. One decent session during the weekend. Can't complain, it has been three weeks since the last one which sure beats the usual rate.
> 
> About the ultimatum, not much has been said since shortly after. I am starting to pursue jobs in different locales. Nothing to speak of yet but these things take time.


By any chance, as you two laid in bed together basking in the afterglow, did you explain to her how much you felt her love for you, how sex with her makes you feel cherished and wanted by her? Did you explain that a man can have sex without feeling love but can't really feel love without having sex? If not, it's not too late to have that conversation.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I have had this "afterglow talk" and the reaction is that things like love, emotional connection, etc are for teenagers, not adults. As exhibit A she never fails to mention her sister, a successful Western educated physician who passed away in a car accident crash while in the process of a PA with OM (half her age) driving and her two kids in the back.... That incident about 5 years back started the Rapture. 

Oh well


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> By any chance, as you two laid in bed together basking in the afterglow, did you explain to her how much you felt her love for you, how sex with her makes you feel cherished and wanted by her? Did you explain that a man can have sex without feeling love but can't really feel love without having sex? If not, it's not too late to have that conversation.


We did not have this chat immediately afterwards. Should have but that is hindsight. I will keep it in my mind for the next time. I could be wrong but saying what you just said may have a profound effect on her.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

I pride myself on being a great listener and being someone who can get people talking. Usually, this does not work with the wife. However, persistence paid off. One of her issues is body image. While she did not give a bevy of info, her words were, "I can't see how you find this (pointing to herself) attractive". I have always been positive and reassuring but words on my part only do so much.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

tyler1978 said:


> I pride myself on being a great listener and being someone who can get people talking. Usually, this does not work with the wife. However, persistence paid off. One of her issues is body image. While she did not give a bevy of info, her words were, "I can't see how you find this (pointing to herself) attractive". I have always been positive and reassuring but words on my part only do so much.


We receive so many messages about the ideal body from the media, family, friends, etc. These are deeply ingrained in us from childhood on. You are right, a few positive words from you compared to the constant bombardment from all around her can only do so much to turn the tide. Women who are pregnant see their body go through changes and worry if they are going to get their pre-pregnant body back. There is a thread going in the Ladies Lounge on this very topic about a picture of a woman with a perfect body just 4 days after giving birth with the caption "What's your excuse?" Women are under pressure even after giving birth to look a certain way.

In light of all of this, she wonders why you find her attractive. She probably compares her body to other women unfavorably. All I can suggest is just be positive around her, this is her first pregnancy. She is going through a world of changes mentally, physically and emotionally.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

techmom said:


> We receive so many messages about the ideal body from the media, family, friends, etc. These are deeply ingrained in us from childhood on. You are right, a few positive words from you compared to the constant bombardment from all around her can only do so much to turn the tide. Women who are pregnant see their body go through changes and worry if they are going to get their pre-pregnant body back. There is a thread going in the Ladies Lounge on this very topic about a picture of a woman with a perfect body just 4 days after giving birth with the caption "What's your excuse?" Women are under pressure even after giving birth to look a certain way.
> 
> In light of all of this, she wonders why you find her attractive. She probably compares her body to other women unfavorably. All I can suggest is just be positive around her, this is her first pregnancy. She is going through a world of changes mentally, physically and emotionally.


I would agree with all of this if her interest in sex only waned after getting pregnant. But it did not. She has not been interested in sex for some time before that. So while she may feel unattractive now, I think that is more the current excuse she can latch onto rather than the real issue.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

That's a good start tyler. But it is still up to you to continue the conversation going.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I would agree with all of this if her interest in sex only waned after getting pregnant. But it did not. She has not been interested in sex for some time before that. So while she may feel unattractive now, I think that is more the current excuse she can latch onto rather than the real issue.


The body image issue may have been present before but it manifests itself in a significant way after pregnancy. It may not be an excuse but her finally revealing what is going on inside her.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

techmom said:


> The body image issue may have been present before but it manifests itself in a significant way after pregnancy. It may not be an excuse but her finally revealing what is going on inside her.


Actually, it seems to have manifest itself in the exact same way - she does not want to have sex with tyler1978. It could be part of the reason, but it seems convenient to come up with this reason now. I would not stop digging just based on this one discussion.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Her LD existed long before the pregnancy so I'm guessing it's just a convenient happening... Which is funny in a way as most men find pregnant women quite attractive...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

I wonder . . . what would be considered an acceptable "reason" from an LD partner for not wanting to have sex?

HD partners (naturally) want to know WHY their partner is rejecting them, but often, when the LD partner comes up with something, it's dismissed or derided as convenient or another red herring. 

Is it assumed that LD partners always have some REAL reason that they keep hidden? 

It's obvious that "I don't feel like it" or "I don't like sex" or "I'm not attracted to you" are the simplest reasons for not wanting sex . . . but when LD partners try to delve a little deeper to offer up issues that might be creating the lack of drive or desire, they are often criticized for "making excuses". 

I think that sometimes the LD partner doesn't really know why they don't have sexual desire. Or they don't want to say what is obvious: "I'm not attracted to you" because they sense how hurtful this could be. 

As far as body image goes--it's a huge factor for many women, even attractive ones. It's not something that is easily "gotten over," either. It's not something that can be turned on and off at will--it takes effort to control the reactions to those negative feelings. It makes me think of similar threads on "retroactive jealously." Those who struggle with it also struggle with the judgment of others who tell them to "just get over it." Women don't choose to feel negatively about their bodies, and it is a struggle to overcome those feelings when they arise.

And it's also embarrassing to a lot of women to even admit they have body image issues, especially if they realize that others would consider them quite attractive and ridicule or dismiss their feelings. I have struggled with being uncomfortable with my body pretty much all my adult life--and it has definitely affected my sex life, although it is something I've never felt comfortable bringing up with my friends, my sisters, or my husband, who I've been with all my adult life. 

It's disheartening to hear that. when a woman opens up about something that might be causing her shame, something that is a real struggle for her to disclose at all, it is dismissed as "just another excuse." 

Tyler, only you can judge how much this is a "real" issue with your wife, but I'd pay attention if I were you, and take it seriously. I've learned to overcome my body image issues in regards to my sex life, but I couldn't have done it without my husband's help and understanding.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> Her LD existed long before the pregnancy so I'm guessing it's just a convenient happening... *Which is funny in a way as most men find pregnant women quite attractive...*


Body image issues have to do with a woman's negative view of her own body. If she doesn't feel attractive, it doesn't matter what most men think.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I realize that, I was thinking of the case where one's body image perception may be influenced by societal considerations of pregnant women as "attractive" regardless of whether they meet commonly acceptable beauty standards...

If someone forms their own self image perception despite what society perceives as attractive then this difference in perceptions will have to be bridged somehow. 

For example, pregnant celebrity pics were not so popular back in my time, today they're all the rage...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> I wonder . . . what would be considered an acceptable "reason" from an LD partner for not wanting to have sex?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes.

My personal experience with my favorite LD suggests there exists a mental counter of some type, something as accurate as what I have in my lab, that controls the frequency of intimacy. The LD partner senses any up-trend and rejects instantly for fear of the upwards trend becoming the norm. 

In other words, there exists some kind of mental sexual SLA that dictates what, when, and do on. This could lead LD's towards losing the ability to enjoy non sexual intimacy for fear of it escalating. 

Again, that's from personal observation... YMMV.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> I wonder . . . what would be considered an acceptable "reason" from an LD partner for not wanting to have sex?
> 
> HD partners (naturally) want to know WHY their partner is rejecting them, but often, when the LD partner comes up with something, it's dismissed or derided as convenient or another red herring.
> 
> ...


Of course the HD "says" that they want to know the reason why the LD is rejecting them. But, they only want to know that reason so they can eliminate it by whatever means necessary. By devaluing and dismissing said reason the HD hopes that the LD will be left with no other alternate but to "put out enthusiastically" so they will say "see it wasn't that bad was it". 

But the opposite happens, the LD shuts down more and the HD runs to the boards with another sexless marriage thread. Maybe if they wasn't so quick to dismiss they would get their needs met.....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

techmom said:


> Of course the HD "says" that they want to know the reason why the LD is rejecting them. But, they only want to know that reason so they can eliminate it by whatever means necessary. By devaluing and dismissing said reason the HD hopes that the LD will be left with no other alternate but to "put out enthusiastically" so they will say "see it wasn't that bad was it".


Without knowing the reason, and without a good estimate on the probability of the reason being true, it's all a big guesswork game. Without knowing, one is condemned to perpetually waddle around the Internets looking for answers. Knowing allows one to make a call as to whether it's worth it to stay or worth it to bail.

So, wanting to know is far from a wild goose chase. It's not devaluing anyone to actually KNOW why they're not desired, loved, or cared for. 

What matters is the step that comes after knowing, if it ever comes, that is, whether anything will be done about it. I'm content to simply know why. Knowing why, in most cases, also answers the 'what next' question.

Heck, when you're told point blank that emotional connections are for the 15 and under crowd, and we're in our 50's, there isn't enough hope in the world, enough medication in the world, or enough shrink talent in the world to address that (recall earlier thread about NOT dating emotional virgins?). 

Partners who want a somehow normal intimate relationship with their married partners are not some kind of pressuring perverts that want to get laid at all costs. We listen, and if there's a way thru, we may find it together, if that's what is desired. If not, there are other options, together or not. 

Remember, there are no CarFax reports for people. Maybe there should be.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

john117 said:


> Without knowing the reason, and without a good estimate on the probability of the reason being true, it's all a big guesswork game. Without knowing, one is condemned to perpetually waddle around the Internets looking for answers. Knowing allows one to make a call as to whether it's worth it to stay or worth it to bail.
> 
> So, wanting to know is far from a wild goose chase. It's not devaluing anyone to actually KNOW why they're not desired, loved, or cared for.
> 
> ...


Sorry but this is not what usually happens on these threads. There is a whole lot of devaluing going on, and there are not many LDs on TAM. I understand that there are hurt feelings of being unwanted, but sometimes HDs shoot themselves in the foot. No one wants to open up their soul to someone only to get shot down, it doesn't exactly boost the libido if you know what I mean. Rejection tends to happen on both sides.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

I have been consistently supportive of her. Never have i expressed that she was remotely unattaractive. I tell her quite often that she has the physical and personal qualities that i look for. I am not sure how else i can convey that i want her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

john117 said:


> Conversations are indeed easier. There aren't any, or if they are, they're about very mundane things.
> 
> As to why they are not interested, not a surprise. They have everything they want, the education, the mansion loaded with art, the European pseudo SUV, the career, the trophy children, and every concoction ever made by Estée Lauder. What is getting laid going to add to the list?
> 
> ...


Fuuuuuuuuuu......

Post more.


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

john117 said:


> Without knowing the reason, and without a good estimate on the probability of the reason being true, it's all a big guesswork game. Without knowing, one is condemned to perpetually waddle around the Internets looking for answers. Knowing allows one to make a call as to whether it's worth it to stay or worth it to bail.
> 
> *So, wanting to know is far from a wild goose chase. It's not devaluing anyone to actually KNOW why they're not desired, loved, or cared for. *


Spot on. Thank you.



> What matters is the step that comes after knowing, if it ever comes, that is, whether anything will be done about it. I'm content to simply know why. Knowing why, in most cases, also answers the 'what next' question.


Spot on again. I remember when I read this article, where the same advice was given, and it is spot on. Like a laser guided bomb of truth.

Dear Patricia: Living in sexless marriage makes me anguished and depressed - Independent.ie

It is not the answer, it is what the denied will DO once they have the truth...

I left my wife, that's what I did. Life is too short. She fcuked my head for too long, her rejection made me feel utterly worthless, and rendered me almost non functional. I feel much betteraway from her, though I am going to suffer forever because I am no longer a father to my children, and no longer a husband. These were integral to my identity, and I am having to begin again, re-learn who I am again, whilst she just keeps trudging on, her life unchanged essentially, still forever unhappy, still lusting over male models, still depressed she isn't in a luxurious house.




> Heck, when you're told point blank that emotional connections are for the 15 and under crowd, and we're in our 50's, there isn't enough hope in the world, enough medication in the world, or enough shrink talent in the world to address that (recall earlier thread about NOT dating emotional virgins?).
> 
> Partners who want a somehow normal intimate relationship with their married partners are not some kind of pressuring perverts that want to get laid at all costs. We listen, and if there's a way thru, we may find it together, if that's what is desired. If not, there are other options, together or not.
> 
> Remember, there are no CarFax reports for people. Maybe there should be.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

As I have reminded others in this here board, nobody can take out one's true worth by virtue of having or not having sex. A sleeping-around 'stvd' or 'slvt' may think so but it ain't true anymore than a sex withholding spouse does to their partner.

Of course it helps the psyche to have a great emotional relationship but ultimately what one has accomplished in life is there for all to see, sex 3x a day or not. Just like the luxury home and pseudo-sports sedan does not automatically make one a 1%'er I guess


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> I have consistently supportive ofher. Never have i expressed that she was remotely unattaractive. I tell her quite often that she has the physical and personal qualities that i look for. I am not sure how else i can convey that i want her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Tyler, I never meant to suggest that you contribute to her body image issues. I doubt she would have even hinted of her feelings to you if your actions were at the root of them. A husband can convey his desire consistently and positively (as my husband always did), and a woman can still be affected by her view of her own body--views that might have been formed and developed largely outside of her relationship with him. 

You could try to have a conversation about her feelings on the topic, but as I said, women with the issue are often not comfortable owning it, let alone talking about it, because of shame and/or embarrassment, and because of the way it can be misunderstood and dismissed by others as "all in your head." I'm sure there is some good reading out there if it's something you are interested in delving into and trying to understand more, but I don't have anywhere to point you off the top of my head. 

She did bring it up to you, however . . . which I would say, despite your difficulties with her, is an indication that she does feel some level of emotional safety with you. It's something to build on, at any rate, if you are so inclined. Yes, at the end of the day it is "her issue" to deal with, so I suppose it's up to you to decide how much effort you want to put into finding positive and encouraging ways to help her address it.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

It is puzzling how body image issues can be derailing the train now when they did not in the past. She was fine with it for the first three years (or at least that is how it appeared) and now she is not. 

On another topic, her being pregnant does not change how attractive she is to me. She still has the curvy, well-endowed body that I can’t get enough of. 

The LD partner gets cast in a bad light in forums like this. The issues that contribute them to being LD could actually be linked to the other partner (gasp!!). However, I will say that if asked why they have such a low drive they should be open, honest, and candid. Hiding behind the veil of I don’t know or I am not in the mood is weak.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> She did bring it up to you, however . . . which I would say, despite your difficulties with her, is an indication that she does feel some level of emotional safety with you. It's something to build on, at any rate, if you are so inclined. Yes, at the end of the day it is "her issue" to deal with, so I suppose it's up to you to decide how much effort you want to put into finding positive and encouraging ways to help her address it.


I agree it is a place to start building upon. However, I think the OP needs to be careful moving forward about this reason for two reasons. 

First, while she may be honest with this comment, she may also be grabbing onto a minor something to avoid dealing with the real reason. She would not be the first person to not understand what is driving their feelings who grasps on to something they don't like about their situation (see, as an example, some LD women who complain about their husband not doing the dishes).

Second, if it is accurate, it ultimately comes down to her dealing with it. The OP can't change her, she has to. He can be supportive, helpful and loving, but she is the one that needs to change her mind set. If she can't or won't, then there is nothing he can do about it.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

tyler1978 said:


> It is puzzling how body image issues can be derailing the train now when they did not in the past. She was fine with it for the first three years (or at least that is how it appeared) and now she is not.


A point to raise to her. Not as an accusation, but to seek understanding. Perhaps by asking what has changed in her mind since that time.



> The LD partner gets cast in a bad light in forums like this. The issues that contribute them to being LD could actually be linked to the other partner (gasp!!). However, I will say that if asked why they have such a low drive they should be open, honest, and candid. Hiding behind the veil of I don’t know or I am not in the mood is weak.


Much of that is human nature. It is always easier to find fault in the other person. So HD blames the LD and vice versa. The HD blaming the LD is more common here because there are more HD on this forum, but you can see LD blaming HD as well. It is rarely that simple. Rather, both sides engage in behaviors that contribute to the problem. The best you can do is clean up your side of the street, make clear that you expect your spouse to do the same, and work toward a reasonable compromise.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> Hiding behind the veil of I don’t know or I am not in the mood is weak.


Sometimes. Sometimes it's the truth.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> First, while she may be honest with this comment, she may also be grabbing onto a minor something _to avoid dealing with the real reason. She would not be the first person to not understand what is driving their feelings _who grasps on to something they don't like about their situation (see, as an example, some LD women who complain about their husband not doing the dishes).


So what is the LD person to do? "I don't know" isn't good enough, and all other reasons are suspect. 

Do HD partners have a particular answer they are looking for? What is a "good enough" reason? Is there one? 

I think that, ultimately, having a reason doesn't really matter. What matters is willingness of both partners to work toward a mutually agreeable resolution. Doing so without blame and accusations and demonstrations of superiority is the tricky part . . .


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Sometimes. Sometimes it's the truth.



The truth is closer to "it's not worth my while to find out" actually...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> The truth is closer to "it's not worth my while to find out" actually...


Again, sometimes.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Again, sometimes.


I get that she may not know. However, I do not buy that she does not notice our current dry spell of intimacy. Why would you not want to know? To go from 2-3 times a week to less than once a month is a rather stark difference. I laid down the ultimatum and am still getting, "I don't know"'s. Little to no effort being made to understand why she has so little interest.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I've heard every reason or explanation in the book, believe me, but at the end it's back to our two friends, "evil" and "stupid". Or a mix.

If they put some effort to figure out why, yet can't figure out why, or tried some things and did not work, that's more in the realm of S. If they go into blame others mode, rug-sweep, willfully ignore, or continuously move the goal posts, that's more E. 

So even tho you don't know exactly which four neurons fire in her head to cause this, or which gland produces what hormone, the E&S triage could provide some useful insight...

Once again, the terms evil and stupid are used metaphorically and not descriptively.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> So what is the LD person to do? "I don't know" isn't good enough, and all other reasons are suspect.


I guess I figured that they are suppose to be honest. 



> Do HD partners have a particular answer they are looking for? What is a "good enough" reason? Is there one?


An honest answer.



> I think that, ultimately, having a reason doesn't really matter. What matters is willingness of both partners to work toward a mutually agreeable resolution. Doing so without blame and accusations and demonstrations of superiority is the tricky part . . .


Agree and disagree. Reasons matter, in so far as you need one so that you can work on it. Not being honest does not help things. If she has lost attraction because he became a yes man, then her telling him she has body images hurts them both. But if one or both are not willing to work on it, then having the correct reason won't matter.

_Edit_ - This hits home for me on a personal level. My wife lost attraction for me, but could not figure out why. I got a lot of excuses, from her being tired, to me not helping out with the kids, to her have body image issues to her not liking sex. I helped out more, even took over feedings for our baby and let her sleep all night (even though I worked and she was a SAHM). I cleaned and picked up after her. She told me she wanted to fix things and read books to improve her view on sex and her body. The problem was that was not the real reason. The real reason was that I had become her butler and yes man. I deferred to her, waited on her, and changed from being her partner to being the help. Because I took what she said at face value, we spent more time miserable than we might have. It was not until I stumbled across this forum and realized that she needed a man and a partner, not a helper, that things turned around.

So I guess I want to amend my comment above. “I don’t know” is a perfectly valid answer if it is followed by “Let’s figure out together what is the reason.”


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

tyler1978 said:


> I get that she may not know. However, I do not buy that she does not notice our current dry spell of intimacy. Why would you not want to know? To go from 2-3 times a week to less than once a month is a rather stark difference. I laid down the ultimatum and am still getting, "I don't know"'s. Little to no effort being made to understand why she has so little interest.


Because she is LD, frequency decreasing is not a problem so why should she worry. The only reason why she is noticing is because you are bringing it up. Maybe she felt it was nice to take a break. Sometimes I feel this way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

techmom said:


> Because she is LD, frequency decreasing is not a problem so why should she worry. The only reason why she is noticing is because you are bringing it up. Maybe she felt it was nice to take a break. Sometimes I feel this way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A 3-year break? 

I am going to need more convincing to buy into someone not noticing that they have no sex drive. We only have sex because she knows that otherwise I would be gone by now. We have the obligatory once every two months five minute, passionless session. I quit initiating just under a year ago and that has been how it goes. She is obviously cognizant enough to realize that we have not had sex for two months but not enough to not know why she has no sex drive.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> _Edit_ - This hits home for me on a personal level. My wife lost attraction for me, but could not figure out why. I got a lot of excuses, from her being tired, to me not helping out with the kids, to her have body image issues to her not liking sex. I helped out more, even took over feedings for our baby and let her sleep all night (even though I worked and she was a SAHM). I cleaned and picked up after her. She told me she wanted to fix things and read books to improve her view on sex and her body. The problem was that was not the real reason. The real reason was that I had become her butler and yes man. I deferred to her, waited on her, and changed from being her partner to being the help. Because I took what she said at face value, we spent more time miserable than we might have. It was not until I stumbled across this forum and realized that she needed a man and a partner, not a helper, that things turned around.
> 
> So I guess I want to amend my comment above. “I don’t know” is a perfectly valid answer if it is followed by “Let’s figure out together what is the reason.”


This is my story, too. Except I was the one saying "I don't know." I said it for ten years and I really did not know. I had been HD with him for ten years before our sex life tanked. 

Turned out my loss of desire was being exacerbated by my husband's behavior, which was similar to yours. But I didn't know that either . . . until I stumbled across this forum. 

He asked me repeatedly all those years to look into finding my libido. I looked high and low, I looked in therapy, I looked in books, I looked by doing my own personal 180 to ramp up satisfaction with my life. He never really offered to "help me" find my libido. He just asked me to work on it. I did . . but it turns out I needed his help.

It never occurred to me I had lost desire for my husband due to changes he was making in his behavior to try and get me interested in sex again. Why are LD women supposed to know the answer when this dynamic occurs? It's as much the result of the husband's ignorance as the wife's. 

My husband and I have been dumbfounded at our discovery--but neither of us blames the other for with holding information that might have solved it sooner.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> I get that she may not know. However, I do not buy that she does not notice our current dry spell of intimacy. Why would you not want to know? To go from 2-3 times a week to less than once a month is a rather stark difference. I laid down the ultimatum and am still getting, "I don't know"'s. Little to no effort being made to understand why she has so little interest.


I don't know why (or if) your wife doesn't want to know. I can't speak for her, but I do know that when I lost my libido it was a hopeless and helpless feeling. Close your eyes. Now, will yourself to sprout wings. Yeah, that's what it felt like to try and conjure the desire. It was just . . . gone. 

I agree that she should be wanting to work on this with you. I agree that her not agreeing to work on it with you is troubling and frustrating. If she was willing to do one thing, I would suggest IC for her. It helped me. But she has to want to. 

If her desire for YOU is gone, finding the underlying reason is crucial. At this point, resentment might be something that is piling on top of whatever killed her desire in the first place. It's a hell of a place to dig out from, I can tell you this first hand. But I can also tell you that everything I know about my LD years I learned AFTER I got my desire back. Demanding that she just "figure it out" when she's in the grips of it might be like crying for the moon. I figured it out by reading on here and MMSLP and then going to IC to deal with the fallout and to get advice on rebuilding the intimacy and trust in my marriage. 

I think I've said it before--fixing this sort of thing is never a sprint. You've already got your endgame laid out, and she's been presented with an ultimatum. That was never something I had to contend with, and that is only thing that saved my marriage. 

I was lucky, very lucky. My husband and I are glad we made it through, but many other people would have been glad to have those 10 years to start fresh with someone else. Only you can decide.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> I don't know why (or if) your wife doesn't want to know. I can't speak for her, but I do know that when I lost my libido it was a hopeless and helpless feeling. Close your eyes. Now, will yourself to sprout wings. Yeah, that's what it felt like to try and conjure the desire. It was just . . . gone.
> 
> I agree that she should be wanting to work on this with you. I agree that her not agreeing to work on it with you is troubling and frustrating. If she was willing to do one thing, I would suggest IC for her. It helped me. But she has to want to.
> 
> ...


Being deprioritized to the point that a co-worker's dying cat got precedence over our anniversary was the last straw. I am not a sentimental guy at all but this spoke volumes to me. 

From mid-2010 to end of 2012, if I had not initiated it I would be on a 3-year celibacy streak. Additionally, the topic would never have came up.

About her effort, there have been no books. Discussions are always started by me. She does not do online forums. As for IC or MC, that has been touched on but maybe closer to the deadline she will take it serious. The topic of sex is on the same plane with Indonesian cricket scores. Oh.... we are not having sex. Hmmmmmm.... next topic is the basic attitude. The indifference on her part is what eats at me.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> About her effort, there have been no books. Discussions are always started by me. She does not do online forums. As for IC or MC, that has been touched on but maybe closer to the deadline she will take it serious. The topic of sex is on the same plane with Indonesian cricket scores. Oh.... we are not having sex. Hmmmmmm.... next topic is the basic attitude. The indifference on her part is what eats at me.


Yes, this is the problem, I agree. If her desire for sex with you is truly gone and she has no intention of addressing it, then the ball is entirely in your court. I hope she'll go to IC.

Just wondering--have you ever ASKED her to read this forum? Does she know you post here?


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Yes, this is the problem, I agree. If her desire for sex with you is truly gone and she has no intention of addressing it, then the ball is entirely in your court. I hope she'll go to IC.
> 
> Just wondering--have you ever ASKED her to read this forum? Does she know you post here?


No, I have not. She does not know that I am on here. That is not a matter of secrecy. It just has not came up yet. If she ever wanted to know, I would have no problem with her seeing it.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> No, I have not. She does not know that I am on here. That is not a matter of secrecy. It just has not came up yet. If she ever wanted to know, I would have no problem with her seeing it.


I recommend you send her the SIM URL and ask her to spend an evening reading. What do you have to lose? I've learned a hell of a lot here that I somehow missed in my 24 year relationship with my husband. My husband says the same thing about the marriage and sex forum he now frequents.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I would like to offer an observation...not that it matters much but nonetheless...

GettingIt isn't LD. She may have lost desire for her husband for a time, but she isn't LD. I think (and correct me if I am wrong GettingIt) she continued to have her own solo sex life during the time when she had no desire for her husband.

When a spouse is still having a solo sex life by choice but is not having sex with their spouse, you know this person is not actually LD.

I don't think tyler's wife has a solo sex life. I don't think she will even if they break up. I think she is truly LD and isn't going to change, even if she tries to.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Tyler, answer a basic question honestly and simply. In her mind, does she feel that this level of intimacy between a married couple is typical, yes or no?

If she thinks it is, NOT TYPICAL then the second question is "does she plan to work on it, yes or no?". 

I'm willing to bet you that she thinks it's (a) quite normal and (b) you're the one needing the help to "control your hormones".

The rest is beating around the bush, you could have her memorize every post ever made on SIM and it won't work. 

The hard part is to get honest answers from her, of course, because the moment you ask she will know what you "want" and tell you what you want to hear. That's why this is best done indirectly thru IC or MC.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

john117 said:


> Tyler, answer a basic question honestly and simply. In her mind, does she feel that this level of intimacy between a married couple is typical, yes or no?
> 
> If she thinks it is, NOT TYPICAL then the second question is "does she plan to work on it, yes or no?".
> 
> ...


if I have to answer it with yes or no, it would be yes. To be honest, I am not sure that she really cares if it is normal or not. IC for both her and I as well as MC may be in the cards sooner or later.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I would like to offer an observation...not that it matters much but nonetheless...
> 
> GettingIt isn't LD. She may have lost desire for her husband for a time, but she isn't LD. I think (and correct me if I am wrong GettingIt) she continued to have her own solo sex life during the time when she had no desire for her husband.
> 
> ...


You are correct--my drive, though reduced, still existed in the years I didn't want to have sex with my husband. My hormones would spike around ovulation, and if we were going to have sex, it would be then. 

I guess I can't get a read on Tyler's wife enough to say whether or not she's low drive always, or just for him. Maybe it's buried in the thread somewhere and I've forgotten, but I thought she had interest in sex at some point. 

I'm sort of undecided on the prognosis for marriages where one partner is "true LD" and one is normal or HD. I think a mutually satisfactory sex life can be achieved with education and work and understanding from both parties. I think the ones that implode are the ones that end up here on TAM . . .


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> You are correct--my drive, though reduced, still existed in the years I didn't want to have sex with my husband. My hormones would spike around ovulation, and if we were going to have sex, it would be then.
> 
> I guess I can't get a read on Tyler's wife enough to say whether or not she's low drive always, or just for him. Maybe it's buried in the thread somewhere and I've forgotten, but I thought she had interest in sex at some point.
> 
> I'm sort of undecided on the prognosis for marriages where one partner is "true LD" and one is normal or HD. I think a mutually satisfactory sex life can be achieved with education and work and understanding from both parties. I think the ones that implode are the ones that end up here on TAM . . .


you are correct. She had interest in sex for the first 3 years and then it seemingly dried up. For the 3 or so years since that time (mid-2010), she has largely had no sex drive for anybody let alone me.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

She was a virgin when you met. She waited OVER A YEAR to have sex with you (and I'm not 100% sure I understand why on that one). Then you say when you got married the sex 2 - 3 times per week was good.

BUT...this beginning of a relationship period is the time when even truly LD folks have a sex drive...and then it dries up. This is documented over and over.

And this is why I don't think the 2 - 3 years are her "real" sex drive.

Her having NO SEX is her sex drive, and that is who she was when you met her.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> She was a virgin when you met. She waited OVER A YEAR to have sex with you (and I'm not 100% sure I understand why on that one). Then you say when you got married the sex 2 - 3 times per week was good.
> 
> BUT...this beginning of a relationship period is the time when even truly LD folks have a sex drive...and then it dries up. This is documented over and over.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the delayed response. We were ready to have sex by the second month. She received an immunization for HPV and supposedly you can't have sex for six month after receiving the shot. I am no doctor and so I took her word for it. Therefore, we waited six months and we had sex just under a year after meeting.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> When she says "I don't know..." How do you respond? Do you think she honestly doesn't know why her sex drive disappeared?
> 
> Have you two read the too marriage books recommended here?
> 5 love languages
> ...


Do a couple loads of laundry

That should do it


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> She received an immunization for HPV and supposedly you can't have sex for six month after receiving the shot. I am no doctor and so I took her word for it.



The six months is when you do all 3 shots... 1st shot, then 2nd after 2 months, then 3rd after 6 months (both cases after 1st shot)

Not sure if abstinence is prescribed.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

I am going to let this thread die after this one.

Last update, Wife was had a well-spring of horniness. I am finding out that this is par for the course during the last trimester of pregnancy. Whether it is or not, I am enjoying it. She is wanting it and engaged. It is not a race to get it over with. If this will last after our son is born, who know? We shall find out. Ultimatum is still intact but for now, the sailing is smooth.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

tyler....that's AWESOME! Happy New Year!


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Quick Update. The well has run dry again. We have not been intimate since the last time I posted on this thread. Her lack of interest has rubbed off on me. I tried to masturbate a few nights ago. It was mostly an effort to aid in getting to sleep. Mornings come early with a 6-month old. It took some serious will power to even get it up. I found that I could not care less about it. Maybe this is an acceptable circumstance for now. She has no interest and now neither do I.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> Quick Update. The well has run dry again. We have not been intimate since the last time I posted on this thread. Her lack of interest has rubbed off on me. I tried to masturbate a few nights ago. It was mostly an effort to aid in getting to sleep. Mornings come early with a 6-month old. It took some serious will power to even get it up. I found that I could not care less about it. Maybe this is an acceptable circumstance for now. She has no interest and now neither do I.


Dropped your sex drive and libido right down didn't it.

I don't think you would've signed up to have the quality of your life diminished in this way.

Also all the men and women that went into the particular "hole" that you have been helped into by your loving wife of being sexless... Even if they got USED to it. 

When they moved onto good relationshiips with fulfilling sex and intimacy they all confirmed that life felt SO MUCH BETTER with it, and they could never ever again justify a sexless existance.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Treyvion,

I most certainly did not sign up to have this. However, I am trying to give it one last try. Partly because, this baffles me. How does a healthy 30-year-old woman go from twice a week to never wanting it and not caring that she does not want it? Hopefully, she will go find out if it is hormones or start sorting out why she has no interest. 

It makes it easy to not cheat when you do not care. I guess that is one positive aspect to this.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Hi Tyler, I remembered your story from before and a few times while you were gone was hoping that was a good sign. 

Sorry things have not gotten better.  I don't think it's a good sign you don't care anymore but can certainly see how it happens long term like that.


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

tyler1978 said:


> Treyvion,
> I most certainly did not sign up to have this. However, I am trying to give it one last try.


What are you doing differently for this try? You know the definition of _insanity_?



tyler1978 said:


> Partly because, this baffles me. How does a healthy 30-year-old woman go from twice a week to never wanting it and not caring that she does not want it? Hopefully, she will go find out if it is hormones or start sorting out why she has no interest.


Please tell me you are doing more than just "_hoping she will go find out.... start sorting out why..._"
Because if that's really your plan, we can spare the suspense and just call this one right now.



tyler1978 said:


> It makes it easy to not cheat when you do not care. I guess that is one positive aspect to this.


Why don't you care? Why is it a positive to remain faithful to spouse who is actually a celibate roommate?

I really do not understand guys like you who just don't care. Why did you return here and post again if that's really how you feel? Why not just keep going along in your sexless marriage?


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## flyer (Jun 23, 2014)

Tyler:
At 30 something, you CAN start over. DON'T wait till you're 55, have a thriving business, and all kinds of assets.....like I have. You can "escape" now, I can't.

I do have 2 daughters, 19 & 25. They love to spend time with me. The 25 yo is married, but stays with us during the week for her job. Her husband is still in college. It's all good though, he graduates in Dec. The 19 yo is getting married next June. She is the most loveable girl you could ask for. She treats me like a wife should, like a spontaneous hug, or pat on the back, greets me at the door, etc.
I have talked to both of them a lot, so they know how I feel. I've explained to them, from a man's perspective, to take care of their boys. I've told them, if the guys have nothing to loose, they may tend to "shop" around.

I am thankful I have lots of hobbies I can enjoy alone. I fly, I own an airplane and live on a private airpark. I also have an 08 Honda Goldwing (along with a VTX 1300, and a 600 Shadow), guns:smthumbup:, and a boat. So I really can, at the drop of a hat, go and do anything I want. The worst problem with this is, when I'm alone (like most of the time) I reflect on all the "loneliness".


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I'm just throwing a guess out - but I imagine when one reaches the point of 'not caring' it is more of a learned helplessness than specific apathy. One probably feels unable to change the situation. Also one learns that the pain of chronic rejection is no longer worth the low return/apathetic response even when there is sex. 

Like a lot of things in life - I imagine one reaches a point where they become numb.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Back to my favorite area, decision analysis. 

What it really boils down to is whether it's worth caring or not. If it's worth caring then you keep trying and feel helpless. If not it's apathy. 

Add the emotional costs and benefits and you will find out what it is.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

john117 said:


> Back to my favorite area, decision analysis.
> 
> What it really boils down to is whether it's worth caring or not. If it's worth caring then you keep trying and feel helpless. If not it's apathy.
> 
> Add the emotional costs and benefits and you will find out what it is.


I was pretty content to live in a sexless relationship with my ex, doing my own thing for years.

It was the cyber cheating and BPD tantrums that finally drove me out. Otherwise, I'd still be there.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

MissScarlett said:


> I'm just throwing a guess out - but I imagine when one reaches the point of 'not caring' it is more of a learned helplessness than specific apathy. One probably feels unable to change the situation. Also one learns that the pain of chronic rejection is no longer worth the low return/apathetic response even when there is sex.
> 
> Like a lot of things in life - I imagine one reaches a point where they become numb.


You should never let something get worn down that you truly care about and that is important to you. What a loss of life.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

MissScarlett said:


> I'm just throwing a guess out - but I imagine when one reaches the point of 'not caring' it is more of a learned helplessness than specific apathy. One probably feels unable to change the situation. Also one learns that the pain of chronic rejection is no longer worth the low return/apathetic response even when there is sex.
> 
> Like a lot of things in life - I imagine one reaches a point where they become numb.


Numb is probably the better term. If she was to say, "I am not in the mood but wish that I was", I would be ok with that. It is hard to describe how indifferent she is about the topic. It is not worth the effort to get worked up and put effort into it just to be met with cold indifference. While she never says it, her collective attitude is "Sex....hmmmmm. I am supposed to care for what reason?"

On another front, I am starting down the path to making a decent income. She has been making roughly 4.5 times what I do for the last 5 years. That is about to change, though.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Did you ever check whether it makes financial sense to bail out now rather than later when you make more money?

Just the pragmatist in me thinking out aloud.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

MissScarlett said:


> I'm just throwing a guess out - but I imagine when one reaches the point of 'not caring' it is more of a learned helplessness than specific apathy. One probably feels unable to change the situation. Also one learns that the pain of chronic rejection is no longer worth the low return/apathetic response even when there is sex.
> 
> Like a lot of things in life - I imagine one reaches a point where they become numb.


Long ago, I picked up some notions about numbness, repression/suppression, and depression -- and the ability to feel joy and pleasure and other good things.

I don't know if these are backed by science or not, but here goes:

1) If you cope by shutting down your ability to feel the "bad thing" (repression and/or suppression, IIRC), you also diminish your ability to feel the good things in life.

2) Depression itself diminishes one's ability to feel pleasure and certain kinds of undesirable emotions. Depression == numbness+apathy to some degree

In my sex and love-starved marriage, I have attempted to cope by repression/suppression. I have also gotten depressed -- because I was particularly susceptible to it or, as those here know, a sex-starved and love-starved life full of rejection is a very depressing sort of existence.

Part of me wants to believe my "caring less and less" is a path to progress, but maybe it dead-ends at NothingMan. That's my fear.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Put all your effort in other things. Work, kids, hobbies, sports, fitness... And above all don't depend on others to make you happy.

Two awesome kids, a true rags to riches immigrant experience, great career success, and a JD Power award. I can live with that


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## flyer (Jun 23, 2014)

PieceOfSky said:


> Long ago, I picked up some notions about numbness, repression/suppression, and depression -- and the ability to feel joy and pleasure and other good things.
> 
> Part of me wants to believe my "caring less and less" is a path to progress, but maybe it dead-ends at NothingMan. That's my fear.



This is sort of where I'm at.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

MissScarlett said:


> I'm just throwing a guess out - but I imagine when one reaches the point of 'not caring' it is more of a learned helplessness than specific apathy. One probably feels unable to change the situation. Also one learns that the pain of chronic rejection is no longer worth the low return/apathetic response even when there is sex.
> 
> Like a lot of things in life - I imagine one reaches a point where they become numb.


It's a defence mechanism...


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

john117 said:


> Did you ever check whether it makes financial sense to bail out now rather than later when you make more money?
> 
> Just the pragmatist in me thinking out aloud.


Yes, I did. At the time, last year, I was not in a good place to get up and move. I am not in a good spot now but the view looks better now than it did.


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