# Is it too late?



## Aes

This is my first post here and I'm glad I found these forums.

We have been married for about 8 years now and have 4 beautiful kids. We have been living in Europe for the first 4-5 years of those, but decided to go back to the States because my wife was homesick.
We had our differences but usually were able to deal with them. There has been a lot of stress in our marriage from the beginning. But lately our arguements were getting worse and we agreed to go to marriage counseling. However, it never came to that. Early last week we got into an arguement that escalated, which resulted in the neighbors calling the police and she having a restraining order put on me (the protection order is for her and our children. )
At first she seems open to work on our relationship, but lately it seems she doesn't want to deal with me anymore. Since I am for Europe, I have nothing but my wife and children here in the States. I was using my mom as a third party, but she's not talking to her anymore.
At this point I don't care whose fault it is or who is to blame. I want it solved and I would love to reconcile above everything else, perhaps using a marital mediator (to fix our main issues) and/or through couples counseling. But the situation seems hopeless right now. I'm not even sure if she wants to continue or wants a divorce.

What do you think? Any help would be much appreciated.


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## PBear

You don't mention any actual issues, or what happened that required a restraining order. Without that, it's going to be hard to get meaningful advice. 

I'd start with getting yourself into individual counseling. Work on your side of the issues. If she sees you're trying to fix those, she might be more interested in fixing the relationship issues. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964

Restraining orders aren't issued for no reason. What did you do?


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## Aes

PBear said:


> You don't mention any actual issues, or what happened that required a restraining order. Without that, it's going to be hard to get meaningful advice.
> 
> I'd start with getting yourself into individual counseling. Work on your side of the issues. If she sees you're trying to fix those, she might be more interested in fixing the relationship issues.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you, and you're right. I keep going over it and over it, but it doesn't make sense... And I guess I've gone over it too much.

She thought I was watching something she didn't approve of while she was taking a shower, which wasn't true and I wanted to prove the contrary. She didn't want to listen and wanted to be left alone for the moment. I was fixing dinner and after about 20 minutes I went to her to offer her dinner, and since I didn't have an appetite I offered her mine. This upset her and she threw her plate towards my head. I asked to please calm down and told her I didn't want to upset her. At that moment I walked away to the kitchen. She followed and grabbed a knife and started threatening me. 
Shortly after that our baby started crying. I told her again to take a time out and calm down and that I was going to comfort him. She didn't like the idea and when I was holding him, she punched me in the eye. Not knowing she was taking over the baby, I felt the baby falling away and I wanted to hold him with my other arm. I saw nothing but white and black (it was also dark and no lights on), I hit her on her cheek while I was trying to prevent the baby from falling.
She went to the baby's room. I wanted to apologize for hitting her, but she had grabbed a baseball bat and started hitting me with it and started screaming out of the window that I was trying to hurt the baby. At the moment I grabbed a phone and walked out of the house.
I called the police for her threatening with a knife, but then they located me and arrested me. I called her the next morning and she told me she didn't call the police and I didn't deserve her. Eight hours later she served me with the restraining order. I wasn't charged with anything and let me go.

Maybe it would be wise to just let her go, but I do feel a strong commitment to her.

Thank you for your advice!


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## PBear

There must be history here as well. What would "her" side be?

My suggestions... Buy a VAR (Voice Activated Recorder) and carry it on you at all times, and turn it on anytime you're at risk of running into her. And get your lawyer ASAP. Are you self supporting, or can she cut you off financially?

Are the kids old enough to provide any testimony about what's going on?

C


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## honcho

Aes said:


> Thank you, and you're right. I keep going over it and over it, but it doesn't make sense... And I guess I've gone over it too much.
> 
> She thought I was watching something she didn't approve of while she was taking a shower, which wasn't true and I wanted to prove the contrary. She didn't want to listen and wanted to be left alone for the moment. I was fixing dinner and after about 20 minutes I went to her to offer her dinner, and since I didn't have an appetite I offered her mine. This upset her and she threw her plate towards my head. I asked to please calm down and told her I didn't want to upset her. At that moment I walked away to the kitchen. She followed and grabbed a knife and started threatening me.
> Shortly after that our baby started crying. I told her again to take a time out and calm down and that I was going to comfort him. She didn't like the idea and when I was holding him, she punched me in the eye. Not knowing she was taking over the baby, I felt the baby falling away and I wanted to hold him with my other arm. I saw nothing but white and black (it was also dark and no lights on), I hit her on her cheek while I was trying to prevent the baby from falling.
> She went to the baby's room. I wanted to apologize for hitting her, but she had grabbed a baseball bat and started hitting me with it and started screaming out of the window that I was trying to hurt the baby. At the moment I grabbed a phone and walked out of the house.
> I called the police for her threatening with a knife, but then they located me and arrested me. I called her the next morning and she told me she didn't call the police and I didn't deserve her. Eight hours later she served me with the restraining order. I wasn't charged with anything and let me go.
> 
> Maybe it would be wise to just let her go, but I do feel a strong commitment to her.
> 
> Thank you for your advice!


Until you get the hearing for the restraining order, stop all contact with her and follow the ro to the letter. I would also have your mom stop trying to talk to her either. 

Any slip up with the ro is temporary automatically makes them permanent without a hearing. Though it may seem counter productive your best and safest bet is to just stay out of her way. Let the situation calm down. I would suggest hiring an atty for to fight the RO.


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## Aes

There is a history, but I'm suspecting this was somehow planned. I don't fear of running into her, since we're not in the same city, but I'll check it out anyways. Thanks!
Her story changes every time, from me hitting her to now beyond seriously hurting the kids... Why on earth would I hurt them, I believe they already shouldn't be a part of this and now they are being used as ammunition...

The kids are young, the oldest is almost 7, and I noticed they have been set up (indoctrinated?). When I came home to pick up with the deputy's assistance, my oldest was telling me that I hit my wife and that I've been in jail. So they are very open to what they hear.

Thank you!


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## EleGirl

If this the first time that she has attacked you?

You need an attorney NOW.


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## Aes

Thanks for the replies. No it's not the first time she attacked me.
I will ask my mom to stop contacting her. She's sad because she already lost contact with one of her grandsons.

Luckily I'm having my boss' support, and he's trying to get me money out of a crisis fund they have for burned down houses etc. I've contacted a lawyer and meet with them tomorrow.

It just makes me wonder, what on earth did I do so wrong?


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## PBear

Either your wife has mental issues or we're still not getting the whole story. No idea which yet. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear

If you're not in the same city, who moved where?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

Aes said:


> Thanks for the replies. No it's not the first time she attacked me.
> I will ask my mom to stop contacting her. She's sad because she already lost contact with one of her grandsons.
> 
> Luckily I'm having my boss' support, and he's trying to get me money out of a crisis fund they have for burned down houses etc. I've contacted a lawyer and meet with them tomorrow.
> 
> It just makes me wonder, what on earth did I do so wrong?


When you hit your wife, did it leave a mark on her, perhaps a bruise?


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## Aes

I moved out, she claimed our property. She was diagnosed with Bipolar disorder in her childhood. She has been using Zoloft, Prozac and other meds to contains her depression. But she stopped because either they make her aggressive or too fat as she puts it.


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## Aes

EleGirl said:


> When you hit your wife, did it leave a mark on her, perhaps a bruise?


I'm not sure about that, on the affidavit for the restraining order she put that I hit her and she might go to the doctor to see if it's fractured. I'm not entirely sure what happened after that.


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## EleGirl

Aes said:


> I moved out, she claimed our property. She was diagnosed with Bipolar disorder in her childhood. She has been using Zoloft, Prozac and other meds to contains her depression. But she stopped because either they make her aggressive or too fat as she puts it.


What do you mean "she claimed our property"? What property did she claim.

Be sure to tell your lawyer about her coming at you and your child with a knife and a baseball bat. Make sure he knows that you called 911 out of self defense.

One problem you will have is that you left your baby in the house with her. So if she was so dangerous, why did you leave a small child with her?

Have you ever called the police on her before?


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## Aes

She has me restrained from going near our house. I've told the police after I got arrested that the children might not and most likely will not be safe in just her supervision. They said they were not supposed to talk to me. Now, at this moment I'm restrained from taking my children out of her custody physically and legally... I've mentioned multiple times to the police that I don't believe the kids are safe... I'm afraid who is going to take the blow when I'm not there, it scares me but I am bound by the restraining order too.


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## EleGirl

Ok so you cannot go in or near your home. Do you two own the home? You still own just as much of your stuff as you did before. You are just restricted from going there for now.

You need to talk to your lawyer about this. Ask the lawyer to petition the court to set up an evaluation of your wife to look into whether or not she is safe with the children.

A big problem you will have is that you have not created a record in the past of her violence. Most victims of domestic violence don't do this. Then they have a very hard time convincing the courts that there is a problem.

Her side will argue that you have had no problem with her taking care of the children in the past, so why is it now a problem?

this is all why you need an attorney. Just keep calm, tell your lawyer everything and do what your lawyer says to do.


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## Aes

Thank you all. I will be talking to a lawyer asap. I guess I should have known better, there's a family history of doing this kind of stuff.


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## Uptown

Aes said:


> I moved out, she claimed our property. She was diagnosed with Bipolar disorder in her childhood.


Perhaps she does have bipolar, Aes. I nonetheless am very skeptical that this is her main problem. One reason I say this is that, currently, the APA's diagnostic manual lists bipolar disorder in the ADULT mood disorder section of the manual. This is because, until relatively recently, it was not thought that children could experience manic symptoms. It is now recognized that _some_ children do meet criteria for the adult classification of bipolar I or II and now receive the diagnosis (called Biopolar Disorder, Not Otherwise Specified -- a subcategory that was added back in 2000 ). Although such a diagnosis is possible, it would be quite rare. About 80% of bipolar sufferers are at least 20 years old before they show symptoms. The usual range of onset is age 18 to 30, with the most common age being 25. 

A second reason I'm skeptical of her diagnosis being accurate is that, in childhood, bipolar mood swings typically are ultra-ultra rapid, sometimes occurring several times a day. In contrast, adult bipolar mood changes typically occur only once or twice a year -- and are considered "rapid" if there are as many as four in a year. I mention this because the ultra-ultra rapid bipolar mood changes are extremely difficult to distinguish from the rapid mood changes that are typical of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). It therefore would be easy for a therapist to mistake BPD for bipolar.

A third reason for my skepticism is that your W "has been using Zoloft, Prozac and other meds to contains her depression." Generally, anti-depressants like Zoloft and Prozac are NOT prescribed for bipolar because they tend to make the mood swings worse, not better. Instead, a drug like lithium would be prescribed.

A fourth reason for skepticism is that the behaviors you describe -- threatening you with a knife, punching your eye, lack of impulse control, temper tantrums, verbal abuse, and having you arrested on a bogus charge -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD. My BPDer exW, for example, had me arrested on a bogus charge at the end of our 15-year marriage. Because it was on a Saturday morning, I was in jail for nearly 3 full days before I could go before a judge. That gave her plenty of time to secure a R/O barring me from returning to my own home. Because BPDers are always convinced they are "The Victim," it is common for them to have their partners arrested on bogus charges.



> She followed and grabbed a knife and started threatening me.... she punched me in the eye.... she had grabbed a baseball bat and started hitting me with it.... No it's not the first time she attacked me.


Physical battering of one's spouse is _strongly associated_ with BPD, not bipolar. Many studies have found this association. A 1993 Canadian study, for example, found that nearly all spousal batterers have personality disorders and about half of them have BPD. See the results summarized by therapist Roger Melton at When-Mr-Right-Turns-Out-To-Be-Mr-Wrong.



> I'm suspecting this was somehow planned.


Perhaps she did plan it, Aes. Yet, if she has strong BPD traits, it is much more likely that she saw a good opportunity to take the kids away from you and went with it. BPDers are not very good at making plans and executing them because they are so reactive to whatever mood they are in at the moment. They nonetheless are opportunistic and will take advantage of an opportunity (e.g., your accidentally hitting her when trying to catch your baby).

I therefore suggest that you see a good psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid opinion on what it is you and your four kids are dealing with. I also suggest that, while you're looking for a psychologist, you take a look at my list of BPD red flags at 18 BPD Warning Signs.

If most of those signs sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my post in Maybe's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. By the way, welcome to the TAM forum, Aes.


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## Aes

Thank you, Uptown. The BPM traits does sound alot like her. The threads explain a lot, thanks!

I visited some lawyers today, one of them tried calling my wife to see where she's standing. She didnt answer but her mother called him back later. He said she was very aggressive and said my wife will file additional charges with the Sheriff's office. It appears she did... She now says I tried killing her and the kids. So I am not sure what to anymore.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## EleGirl

Aes said:


> Thank you, Uptown. The BPM traits does sound alot like her. The threads explain a lot, thanks!
> 
> I visited some lawyers today, one of them tried calling my wife to see where she's standing. She didnt answer but her mother called him back later. He said she was very aggressive and said my wife will file additional charges with the Sheriff's office. It appears she did... She now says I tried killing her and the kids. So I am not sure what to anymore.


Let your attorney handle it. It's her word against yours.


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## Aes

Say she has BPD, how long could an episode last or could it be multiple episodes? It's not been the first time someone suspect this disorder. And it definately would explain that she only sees the fact that she got hit and build her own story around it. Would it be possible that she will see what actually happened? I'm thinking she wouldn't, she has never really done this in the past. She has said she _might_ be wrong, and is know saying she always took the blame. When she is in a possible episode, she becomes unreasonable and actually "impossible" or at least I don't know how to handle the situation that well. It does take two to tango, but I'm not entirely sure how much blame I should take on me. I guess it would have been wisest to leave for the momen, but then she may have followed me.

Thank you!


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## EleGirl

Yes it would have been best to leave. But you cannot leave a small child in a home with a person who is threatening with a knife.

This is what you need to impress on your attorney. She was out of control, threatening. You needed to leave but could not leave your child.


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## Uptown

Aes said:


> Say she has BPD, how long could an episode last or could it be multiple episodes?


Aes, if your W is a BPDer (i.e., has strong BPD traits) as you suspect, she is emotionally unstable. This means her periods of "splitting you white" will alter with periods of "splitting you black." Typically, the periods of extreme rage and temper tantrums will last about five hours. The periods of splitting you black, however, can last for days or weeks or months. 

The irony is that, although BPDers have a great fear of abandonment, they typically will walk away from their relationships many times before finally ending it. A recent survey at BPDfamily found that 73% of such relationships go at least three full cycles of breakup/makeup before finally ending for good. And 40% of them go through at least six such cycles before ending.

My BPDer exW, for example, would have anger issues about every four to five weeks and the outburst of jealousy or meanness would generally last five hours. At the end of my marriage, however, she split me black permanently and had me arrested.



> It's not been the first time someone suspect this disorder.


Who else suspected she has strong BPD traits? Was it a professional. What sort of behavior was so bad that BPD was suspected. I ask because it is unclear when her BPD symptoms started showing themselves in your nine year relationship (8-year marriage). Do you now recall seeing this behavior shortly after your wedding?



> [BPD] definately would explain that she only sees the fact that she got hit and build her own story around it.


Because a BPDer is unable to control her emotions properly, she experiences very intense feelings quite often. The intensity of these feelings distorts her perceptions of your true intentions and motivations. This is why a BPDer usually sincerely believes the outrageous allegations coming out of her mouth. And a week later, when she is saying the exact opposite, she will be just as convinced it is true also. This is what it is like to be living with an adult who has the emotional development of a four year old. 

This is not to say, however, that no BPDer will lie. A lot of them will tell lies because a third of female BPDers are believed to have full-blown narcissism and 10% of those BPDers have AntiSocial PD (aka, sociopathy). Moreover, those having only BPD likely will lie when they are cornered or when fighting for custody of their children.



> Would it be possible that she will see what actually happened? I'm thinking she wouldn't, she has never really done this in the past.


Yes, if she is emotionally unstable as you suspect, anything is possible. Yet, if she is a BPDer, any sudden insight and self awareness almost certainly would be short lived. My BPDer exW, for example, had about five such periods -- called "moments of clarity" -- in our 15 years of marriage. For a day or two, she seemed to have remarkable self awareness of her bad behavior. This awareness was brought on by her great fear of losing me when I found out about some egregious thing she had done (e.g., secret credit card with $5,000 debt on it). After two days, however, that self awareness vanished.



> When she is in a possible episode, she becomes unreasonable and actually "impossible" or at least I don't know how to handle the situation that well.


Nobody does. A BPDer's reality is whatever intense feelings she is experiencing at the moment. Instead of intellectually challenging those intense feelings, BPDers generally accept them as self-evident "facts." This is why it is so futile to try arguing or reasoning with them while they are splitting you black.

Granted, if the person has only mild to moderate traits of BPD, you may calm the situation by saying things to validate her feelings, i.e., not necessarily agreeing with her but acknowledging the validity of the feeling itself. If her BPD traits are strong, however, that validation approach will not get you very far. In that case, establishing strong personal boundaries will help to reduce your exposure to the abuse. Such boundaries, however, almost certainly will result in her deciding to leave you because, as I discussed in those other posts, BPDers lose interest when you refuse to play the role of "Perpetrator." I therefore offer the following suggestions:

*As an initial matter,* I recommend that you NOT tell your W about your suspicions that she has strong BPD traits. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her.

*Second,* if you think you may reconcile and stay with her a while, I suggest you get _Stop Walking on Eggshells_, the best-selling BPD book targeted to abused spouses like you. Or, if you are decided to get a divorce instead, get _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder._ That book should be helpful because BPDers are notorious for being very vindictive during divorces, particularly when children are involved. 

*Third,* I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. This issue is such an enormous problem that that website is growing by 20 new members every day. The result is that it offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the "Staying" board, "Leaving" board, and "Parenting after the Split" board.

*Fourth,* while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My favorite is article #9 at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. I also recommend Kathy Batesel's blog at Borderline Personality Disorder and Relationships.

*Fifth,* I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and the kids are dealing with -- and how likely it is she may pass it on to your four children. As I've explained in many other threads, your best chance of getting a candid opinion regarding a possible BPD diagnosis is to NOT have the BPDer along. Therapists are loath to tell high functioning BPDers the name of the disorder.

*Finally*, Aes, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping many other members and lurkers. Indeed, your thread has already attracted nearly 500 views.


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## LongWalk

Do you have copies of her medical records? Anything you can go to court with?

Does your wife have income?


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## Aes

I do have some medical documents, one of them diagnoses her with PTSD. I do have people who could make a statement of her behavior, including threatening to cut her wrists.
Also, whenever the day was too much for her I requested to work from home or leave early. Luckily my employer is very supportive.

She doesn't have income on her own, she stays at home with the children. For our income and health care we are dependent on my job. She is not thinking of the consequences of what she's doing, and actually she never really did.


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## EleGirl

Will those people make statements in court on your behalf? It sounds to me like your child could be in danger.


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## Aes

Uptown said:


> *Finally*, Aes, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping many other members and lurkers. Indeed, your thread has already attracted nearly 500 views.


I am very thankful for the support you all give me. It has been a really hard time the past few weeks, with little support from what I have here. I've not many friends here, since I would be accused of cheating (same with overtime btw). Also when I got home I took everything over in the house. So the support is much appreciated.
Also, Uptown, your post give me a lot of understanding with what might be going on. Though it hasn't been diagnosed, it does fit the picture. Thank you! And I'm happy if this thread helps anyone else!



> As an initial matter, I recommend that you NOT tell your W about your suspicions that she has strong BPD traits. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her.


I agree it definately would not be a good idea. It happened recently too when I told her that what she was doing was selfish. Suddenly just making that comment made me selfish. Everything gets turned around this way. And maybe that's what also happened with our argument last week.
She's seeing a licensed therapist, but it's kind of ad hoc. She's currently working on her trauma.



> Second, if you think you may reconcile and stay with her a while, I suggest you get Stop Walking on Eggshells, the best-selling BPD book targeted to abused spouses like you.


Before we got married she did say she came with a lot of baggage. I promised her we would get through this and I still feel committed to do so. 
But I have to admit, it doesn't look very good at the moment. She is currently influenced and supported by her mother and a few friends. I am not sure what she is going to do, when this situation is over and everyone returns to their own lives again.
I definitely will look into the book you mentioned and at the website you linked.

I am seeing a psychologist right now, to deal with stress and better control how I respond. I am not sure if he is a clinical psychologist though, but I think not. It does sound like a good idea to get a better understanding of what we are dealing with. Things have been getting out of control and maybe to a point of no return...

Thank you for your advice!


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## Uptown

Aes said:


> I do have some medical documents, one of them diagnoses her with PTSD. I do have people who could make a statement of her behavior, including *threatening to cut her wrists*.


Aes, cutting and other forms of self harm (e.g., head banging and suicide attempts) are STRONGLY associated with having strong BPD traits. Indeed, the association is so strong that self harming is one of the nine symptoms used in diagnosing BPD. This association has been found in many studies. A 2004 study, for example, found that most people treated for cutting themselves have full-blown BPD. It concluded:
Self-mutilating behavior is a symptom seen in both men and women with various psychiatric disorders, but the majority of those who self-mutilate are women with borderline personality disorder. This complex, maladaptive behavior is used by clients as a means of self-preservation and emotion regulation, and is often associated with childhood trauma. _See _Understanding those who se... [J Psychosoc Nurs Ment Health Serv. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI.​


> She is not thinking of the consequences of what she's doing, and actually she never really did.


If she has strong BPD traits, that behavior is to be expected. Because a BPDer cannot do self soothing to calm herself down, she will experience such intense feelings that they will push aside her judgment, making her oblivious to the logical consequences of her behavior. This is why "lack of impulse control" is another one of the nine defining traits for BPD.

By the way, it is certainly worth a shot to ask your attorney about introducing testimony about her strange behavior during the child custody hearing, as EleGirl suggests. Moreover, if you can get the court to order a psychological evaluation, that could be helpful. As to her being diagnosed as "having full-blown BPD," however, don't count on it even if she does. Here in the USA, psychologists generally are loath to tell a client she has BPD and in Europe it is even worse to get a diagnosis. This difficulty is discussed, for example, by a legal firm practicing family law (e.g., divorce) and operating in Texas and California at their website at Loath to Call It BPD. It nonetheless can be very valuable to have people testifying in court about her instability, sudden mood changes, and lack of impulse control.


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## Uptown

Aes said:


> I am seeing a psychologist right now, to deal with stress and better control how I respond. I am not sure if he is a clinical psychologist though, but I think not.


Aes, a "clinical psychologist" is simply a psychologist who diagnoses and treats personality and behavioral disorders. Because your psychologist has not met regularly with your W, he cannot diagnose her. He nonetheless should know enough about PD warning signs to be able to venture an opinion, saying something like "it sure sounds like you're dealing with...." 

Ironically, your best chance of obtaining a candid assessment of your W's issue -- if it really is BPD -- is to see a psychologist who has never treated her. Relying on your W's therapist to give you a candid opinion on her BPD would be as foolish as relying on her attorney to give you a candid opinion during a divorce. It is important to see a psychologist who is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers. If you're interested, I discuss why therapists are so loath to tell BPDers -- or their spouses -- the name of their disorder at Loath to Diagnose.


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## Aes

EleGirl said:


> Will those people make statements in court on your behalf? It sounds to me like your child could be in danger.


I am working on getting their statements. It will be difficult for them to fly over. I am contacting someone who has seen our situation.
I don't want the children to be away from her, I just need to be able to calm the situation down so they don't take the blow. Do you think it could be that I'm trying to take the children away? Because I told the police when I got arrested that I don't believe the children are safe with just her. I did not want to get them out of there, just wanted to make sure they will be ok. The police did came afterwards to inspect the house for safety issues.

Edit:
The restraining order also prohibits me from interfering with custody right now. According to the lawyers I spoke to, I really need a good argument why they are in danger or it would look bad.

Also, she might be reading this.


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## Aes

Uptown said:


> your psychologist ... nonetheless should know enough about PD warning signs to be able to venture an opinion, saying something like "it sure sounds like you're dealing with...."


He did say she had a lot of ups and downs and thought of Bipolar. The ones that said it sounds like BPD came from the field of neurology and was based on a description of my W's behavior.



> If you're interested, I discuss why therapists are so loath to tell BPDers -- or their spouses -- the name of their disorder at Loath to Diagnose.


I see what you mean. It sounds like it's hard to get it fully diagnosed and may have continued to think of Bipolar. Thank you!


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## honcho

You stated she was diagnosed to PTSD and that is often the first diagnosis of many of these people as often times they have secondary conditions that go along with BPD or bipolar. This is not unusual. 

You said she was seeing a therapist now, while that may give you some glimmers of hope too often the person is only going to reinforce the storyline in her head as opposed to actually seeking help. This is exactly what my stbx did. Again it isn’t unusual at all for people like your spouse or mine to go to a therapist for a short time, then when it starts to get hard or the therapist starts to see thru the cracks in the stories for them to either quit or change therapists.

They are looking to play the victim card more than ever wanting help. Since your has started on the restraining orders and it sounds like she is getting more aggressive with her claims for you own sake start keeping a log of where you were or who you were with during the day/night. If you go to the store, keep the receipt. 

Often times these cases come down to he said/she said. Having any evidence to back up the he said will only help you. Having been down this road and living it now I can tell you these items do come in handy.

The atty is correct unfortunetly, you are playing defense right now and any counterclaim you make right now just looks like your trying to get even. The one pattern you can follow is you will have no idea of what her moves are going to be.


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## EleGirl

Aes said:


> I am working on getting their statements. It will be difficult for them to fly over. I am contacting someone who has seen our situation.
> I don't want the children to be away from her, I just need to be able to calm the situation down so they don't take the blow. Do you think it could be that I'm trying to take the children away? Because I told the police when I got arrested that I don't believe the children are safe with just her. I did not want to get them out of there, just wanted to make sure they will be ok. The police did came afterwards to inspect the house for safety issues.
> 
> Edit:
> The restraining order also prohibits me from interfering with custody right now. According to the lawyers I spoke to, I really need a good argument why they are in danger or it would look bad.
> 
> Also, she might be reading this.


If you are not living with her right now, how would she be reading this? How would she know what sites you are posting on?


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## Aes

Maybe not, but she does tend to check on me (phone/computer/work laptop) to see if I'm cheating. She actually has been since we got married. Maybe I'm just scared, but there's no doubt in my mind she would use anything against me if she could.


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## Uptown

Aes said:


> He did say she had a lot of ups and downs and thought of Bipolar. The ones that said it sounds like BPD came from the field of neurology and was based on a description of my W's behavior.


I agree with everything *Honcho* said above. About 80% of BPDers suffer from at least one co-occurring "clinical disorder," e.g., PTSD, bipolar disorder, ADHD, GAD, and depression. Those disorders generally are covered by insurance because they arise from body chemical changes and thus are treatable with medication. In contrast, insurance companies rarely cover the personality disorders (PDs). It therefore is common for therapists to list the diagnosis as the co-occuring clinical disorders and to not mention the BPD. This is one of the reasons I've suggested you rely on your own psychologist for candid information. Her therapist is ethically bound to protect HER best interests, not yours.



> I see what you mean. It sounds like it's hard to get it fully diagnosed and may have continued to think of Bipolar. Thank you!


Perhaps she does have bipolar. About 40% of female BPDers also suffer from co-occurring bipolar. (See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.) The behaviors you are describing here, however, are far closer to the warning signs for BPD than for bipolar. At 12 Bipolar/BPD Differences, I describe differences I've seen between the typical behaviors of BPDers (e.g., my exW) and bipolar suffers (e.g., my foster son). 

Those differences are quite striking and are not difficult to see when you've been living with someone for 8 years. Of course, only a professional can determine whether she satisfies 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having such disorders. This does not imply, however, that you cannot spot the warning signs. There is nothing subtle about BPD red flags such as temper tantrums, irrational jealousy, and anger issues.


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## Aes

honcho said:


> You said she was seeing a therapist now, while that may give you some glimmers of hope too often the person is only going to reinforce the storyline in her head as opposed to actually seeking help.


She does reinforce the storyline, though it may change over time. Sometimes it leads to irrational conclusions. Like someone being mad at her because she didn't talk to her that day.



> Since your has started on the restraining orders and it sounds like she is getting more aggressive with her claims for you own sake start keeping a log of where you were or who you were with during the day/night. If you go to the store, keep the receipt.


Thanks for the tip. I will create a log. I did save most of my receipts, because I thought they might say I violated the protection order. Besides getting more aggressive, she is also unpredictable.


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## EleGirl

Aes said:


> Maybe not, but she does tend to check on me (phone/computer/work laptop) to see if I'm cheating. She actually has been since we got married. Maybe I'm just scared, but there's no doubt in my mind she would use anything against me if she could.


How can she check up on you if you are not at home with her?


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## EleGirl

Aes said:


> She does reinforce the storyline, though it may change over time. Sometimes it leads to irrational conclusions. Like someone being mad at her because she didn't talk to her that day.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the tip. I will create a log. I did save most of my receipts, because I thought they might say I violated the protection order. Besides getting more aggressive, she is also unpredictable.


If she is unpredictable and getting aggressive you need to prepare for just about anything. 

Get a VAR (voice activated recorder) keep near you so that if she shows up you can have it on you and turned on. Record anything she says. 

Do not assume that she will not just show up to antagonize you or to play some nasty game.

A nephew of mine had a similar problem with his wife. He stayed away from her due to a restraining order. After some time she showed up where he was staying and attacked him. Then later that night she called the police and said that he sought her out and attacked her. Thankfully there was a witness who vouched for him that he was at home and she showed up there.

If you use a VAR do not let her know that you have it.


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## Aes

Uptown said:


> Those differences are quite striking and are not difficult to see when you've been living with someone for 8 years. Of course, only a professional can determine whether she satisfies 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having such disorders. This does not imply, however, that you cannot spot the warning signs. There is nothing subtle about BPD red flags such as temper tantrums, irrational jealousy, and anger issues.


I agree it looks more like BPD than Bipolar. As for the red flag, I've been mostly thinking it was her PTSD, PPD or Anxiety Disorder. I couldn't understand her tantrums, some of them were just outrageous. Usually they come out of the blue too.


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## Aes

EleGirl said:


> If she is unpredictable and getting aggressive you need to prepare for just about anything.
> 
> Get a VAR (voice activated recorder) keep near you so that if she shows up you can have it on you and turned on. Record anything she says.
> 
> Do not assume that she will not just show up to antagonize you or to play some nasty game.
> 
> A nephew of mine had a similar problem with his wife. He stayed away from her due to a restraining order. After some time she showed up where he was staying and attacked him. Then later that night she called the police and said that he sought her out and attacked her. Thankfully there was a witness who vouched for him that he was at home and she showed up there.
> 
> If you use a VAR do not let her know that you have it.


To be honest she would be capable of doing that too. Just look at how she (or her mother, I'm not sure) got me another DV charge and I have not been anywhere near her or contacted her. I'll get a VAR asap.

And you're right, there's most likely no way she would know I'm posting this here.


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## EleGirl

Aes said:


> To be honest she would be capable of doing that too. Just look at how she (or her mother, I'm not sure) got me another DV charge and I have not been anywhere near her or contacted her. I'll get a VAR asap.
> 
> And you're right, there's most likely no way she would know I'm posting this here.


Keep that VAR on you all the time. You never know when she might show up.


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## honcho

Aes said:


> She does reinforce the storyline, though it may change over time. Sometimes it leads to irrational conclusions. Like someone being mad at her because she didn't talk to her that day.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the tip. I will create a log. I did save most of my receipts, because I thought they might say I violated the protection order. Besides getting more aggressive, she is also unpredictable.


The one predictable thing is they will be unpredictable. They act and live in the moment so to speak and rarely think about the future or the consequences of actions.


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## Aes

Thank you all. I have a VAR and I've installed an App on my phone.

It looks like I will need the logs to show my whereabouts. They thought they saw me driving near the house. Since there is no real evidence and I've been nowhere near, I hope they will drop it without going through weeks of court hearings.

I hope my W comes a little to her senses. However, I'm wondering if it would be worth risking this all over again. I mean it hurts. 
It will probably take some effort and time to learn how to handle this kind of behavior and control myself not to respond to what she is saying or doing. She can be very provocative, and she isn't always aware of it.


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## honcho

Aes said:


> Thank you all. I have a VAR and I've installed an App on my phone.
> 
> It looks like I will need the logs to show my whereabouts. They thought they saw me driving near the house. Since there is no real evidence and I've been nowhere near, I hope they will drop it without going through weeks of court hearings.
> 
> I hope my W comes a little to her senses. However, I'm wondering if it would be worth risking this all over again. I mean it hurts.
> It will probably take some effort and time to learn how to handle this kind of behavior and control myself not to respond to what she is saying or doing. She can be very provocative, and she isn't always aware of it.



The first time I went thru the RO ordeal once she got the RO she called the police almost every day with some wild claim ranging from stalking her to hacking her internet connection etc. etc. I got to know far too many officers during this time. 

After the third visit from them, they started to figure out who was having “issues”. My stbx played this game until the day before the hearing. Then she hired a lawyer to handle the case for her which got her a delay so it kept the temp order in place longer. More dramatics during this time until literally hours before the hearing she dropped the charges.

She dropped them so I couldn’t prove my innocence, this way she could play the victim role longer, telling everyone she just wanted to put it all past her, she didn’t want to embarrass me in court….all the typical excuses. In her head she could keep telling herself I did it this way. 

Your starting to question whether its worth all the risk. This is the great question, how can you ever really trust them after they go to these extremes. You will always question her motives with anything. You will avoid fights or conflict because you already know what she is capable of. It’s a very long hard road and I think once you gain some distance from her and the situation you will start to see how much you have changed already to play the cartaker role as opposed to a loving husband.


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## Aes

I don't think my W will drop the charges that easily, she mostly driven by her mother and what others say based on her story.
We have been into disagreements, where I showed her that was she was thinking couldn't be true. She agreed, but then a month later she came back to her original ideas. And it is like rinse and repeat, she's the victim of something that happened. When I realized that I just let it go and tried to avoid any conflict. While I probablyshouldn't have, I did let her go over my boundries to a certain degree just to avoid a fight.

I already do realized that I've been playing the caretaker role. Nothing I do seem to be a loving act, but more an obtained privilege. Whenever I am deviating from what I've been doing or I am 10 minutes late her conclusion go to extremes, like I'm seeing someone else.

This also makes me wonder, does she having an affair (emotionally) could fit in the picture of BPD? She already had an affair twice with the same person before. This happened during the time I had to dedicate a lot of time on work or I was waiting for my visa. And I think there is a high chance she will run back to him right now.


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## Uptown

Aes said:


> I don't think my W will drop the charges that easily, she mostly driven by her mother and what others say based on her story.


Aes, if she is a BPDer, her ego is so fragile that the closest thing she has to a self image is the false notion that she is always "The Victim." Having no other sense of who they are, BPDers maintain a death grip on that false self image and seek frequent "validation" that it is true. Significantly, having her husband arrested is the epitome of such validation. It is the equivalent of receiving a Harvard PhD diploma in victimhood. I therefore agree with you that, if your W is a BPDer, she must be relishing her victory -- i.e., her ultimate validation of being a victim -- and won't let go easily.



> We have been into disagreements, where I showed her that was she was thinking couldn't be true. She agreed, but then a month later she came back to her original ideas.


With my BPDer exW, that form of circular thinking could happen within just an hour. This is very common with BPDers. To justify an intense feeling they are experiencing, they will produce an outrageous allegation. When you provide evidence that it cannot be true, they will quickly abandon that allegation and produce a second one. When you dispute that allegation, they will abandon it and return with full conviction to their very first argument -- as though it had never been discussed earlier.



> And it is like rinse and repeat, she's the victim of something that happened.


If she is a BPDer, she will feel intensely that she is "The Victim." As I said above, that is the closest thing she has to "a self image." It nonetheless is a FALSE self image because she is a grown adult who has control over her own life. She no longer is the victim that she had been in early childhood. It therefore is important, for a BPDer's own well being, that she be held fully accountable for her own bad choices and dysfunctional behavior. Otherwise, she will have no incentive to confront her issues and learn how to manage them.



> I already do realized that I've been playing the caretaker role.


If she is a BPDer, you are not a man who was taking care of a mature, sick wife. Rather, you are a man who was taking care of a wife having the emotional development of a four year old. Your relationship thus is not husband/wife but, instead, parent/child -- with you being the parent.



> Nothing I do seem to be a loving act, but more an obtained privilege.


With BPDers, it is impossible to convince them that you truly love them. They are filled with so much self loathing that they cannot believe you will love them when you find out how empty they are on the inside. This is why your loving acts and sacrifices are always suspect to a BPDer.



> Whenever I am deviating from what I've been doing or I am 10 minutes late her conclusion go to extremes, like I'm seeing someone else.


BPDers never matured to the point of having a strong sense of "object constancy." Granted, they did manage to learn that mother doesn't disappear into thin air when out of sight (our first lesson in object constancy that we must learn as babies). Yet, they never matured enough to learn that peoples' personalities are roughly constant from week to week and month to month. This is one reason that BPDers can perceive of you as God's gift to mankind for a few days and then, in ten seconds, flip to perceiving of you as a threat to mankind (splitting you black).


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## EleGirl

Aes said:


> I don't think my W will drop the charges that easily, she mostly driven by her mother and what others say based on her story.
> We have been into disagreements, where I showed her that was she was thinking couldn't be true. She agreed, but then a month later she came back to her original ideas. And it is like rinse and repeat, she's the victim of something that happened. When I realized that I just let it go and tried to avoid any conflict. While I probablyshouldn't have, I did let her go over my boundries to a certain degree just to avoid a fight.
> 
> I already do realized that I've been playing the caretaker role. Nothing I do seem to be a loving act, but more an obtained privilege. Whenever I am deviating from what I've been doing or I am 10 minutes late her conclusion go to extremes, like I'm seeing someone else.
> 
> This also makes me wonder, does she having an affair (emotionally) could fit in the picture of BPD? She already had an affair twice with the same person before. This happened during the time I had to dedicate a lot of time on work or I was waiting for my visa. And I think there is a high chance she will run back to him right now.


Right now your focus has to be on yourself and your children. You need to find a way to stop going over all this stuff over and over and over. I know it's hard but you have to because you have to save yourself so that you can help your children.

Get in touch with your attorney. Let her/him handle the case. You do whatever you can to prove that you are no where near her.. the VAR, GPS, etc. 

Then you get a divorce case together. You cannot go back to her now so you need to do this.

IF she comes near you, she is breaking the RO. An RO means that she also cannot come near you. So if she does get the evidence.

Does she know where you are staying?


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