# A month now of not initiating... any progress?



## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

It has been a month now since I stopped initiating. For those who don't know my background, my H dropped our frequency over the last year and started turning me down probably around 90% of the time, and aI am the HD spouse. I could not bear the continued hurtfull rejections so I decided to stop initiating. I told him what I was doing. This was a month ago.

Is anything changing? I said last time I posted that I felt more relaxed. I still do. He does initiate. It's obviously less than I would like.

He hasn't said anything about it. Nothing. I'm not sure what to make of that. It's not something I want to bring up specifically yet. I kinda hoped he might address it as time passed. I know he used to love the ego boost I gave him in many ways so it is apparent a large part of that is missing. In that way I worry because I know his inappropriate behavior a few months back was indulging his need for attention. I wonder what is happening with that in his head.

I thought a lot about the responses from my last thread. I have filed away many of the points but not used them yet. My feeling is to continue along this path for a while first. The relaxation is giving me clarity from having stepped back and space to think. I do still feel I have played a part but there are some tangled up feelings that I need to unravel yet.

So I will carry on for now...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hurra (Sep 13, 2009)

I'm doing the exact same thing. I was tired hearing excuse after excuse. Once she noticed I was not initiating, she questioned me and I told her why. Not much was said after but I stopped initiating 2-3 months ago. I do feel better whereby I don't constantly have my hopes up. But the whole situation still bothers me

WW, please keep us updated of any changes.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Hurra said:


> I'm doing the exact same thing. I was tired hearing excuse after excuse. Once she noticed I was not initiating, she questioned me and I told her why. Not much was said after but I stopped initiating 2-3 months ago. I do feel better whereby I don't constantly have my hopes up. But the whole situation still bothers me
> 
> WW, please keep us updated of any changes.


Hurra, does your W initiate at all? My H does. In that sense our sex life is active. But on his terms. He was rejecting most of my advances with hurtfull reasons. I just could not take it any more as it was damaging my esteem. So it was a protective measure for me.

I wish my H would say something about it. I think may be he doesn't notice it so much as I still WANT to have sex and allways respond when he initiates. I think if I abstained it would have a bigger impact but that isn't a road I want to go down.

My H when I told him what I was doing thought I was being silly. He said I was way too sensitive. That I shouldn't take a "no" so personally. When I explained and gave him some examples of things he had said, he said he couldn't remember. No apology for hurting me.

I think he lacks empathy. He of course sees this from a different perspective, which is fair, but cannot or will not listen to what I am saying and think how this looks and feels in my shoes. 

I am happy to continue with this for a while. Last night he asked for some loving care which I was happy to do but I could sense he was wanting me to get things going and I thought to myself, something pretty spectacular is going to have to happen before I start making the moves again. This is what I mean about my tangled thinking. I realize with time my feelings may change but I know right now if I were to venture to initiate again and I got turned down I think there would be fireworks. And not in a good way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

You may be hitting the point in this where he is relishing the fact that it's all about him. Which just allows him to want more. That's the lack of empathy you are seeing. It's a natural progression for him to focus on "it could be even better" and come up with even more excuses. 

The point of not initiating is to re-set the balance. And allow both of you to relax, so that you can be more natural and not worry about how you are expressing yourself. The risk is that your spouse will "take the inch to a mile" and not realise you are holding back.

This happens if he still senses that your confidence is based on how often you have sex. He doesn't want the responsibility of having to have sex all the time to make you feel confident. 

He's looking for your confidence and a good sense of self esteem. Based on your own abilities, not on his ability to have sex on demand. It can make a person feel used, in a way. 

Cruel trickery. Do you really love me... or just want sex?


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## keeper63 (Mar 22, 2012)

Seems to me that your H is a control freak, he likes to be in control of you and your sex life, it's part of his need to have the upper hand, if you ask me.

I don't think the 180 thing is going to be successful for you long term. My suggestion would be to get into marriage counseling/sex therapy, and see where that leads. I would imagine you both could use some individual counseling as well.

Good luck, hope you can make some progress.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If you were the victim of physical spousal abuse, throwing yourself down the stairs probably wouldn't cure your wife-beating husband. How is self-inflicting more sexual and emotional abuse upon yourself likely to have any better results?


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

refraining completely from initiating has never really helped me. if I want it, sometimes I have to just go get it, and risk the rejection. One thing I've learned.. oral initiation from me has a *much* higher success rate.

What also helps is if I space it out.. maybe trying every 2-3 nights instead of every night. I think I get better results this way but it could all be in my head.

Including initiating from her, which almost always means better sex. She's told me before, sometimes you just don't give me a chance.. to which I reply - you have a zillion chances, you just don't recognize them.

I don't know if this helps the OP, since the genders are reversed. I can't imagine ever turning down my wife for sex at this juncture in my life.


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## Hurra (Sep 13, 2009)

walkingwounded said:


> Hurra, does your W initiate at all? My H does. In that sense our sex life is active. But on his terms. He was rejecting most of my advances with hurtfull reasons. I just could not take it any more as it was damaging my esteem. So it was a protective measure for me.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She does on occasion, mostly during times when we would not be able to have sex such as before she leaves for work. She would suggest it for that night. But by the time that rolls around, she may randomly say she's tired, fall asleep early, doesn't feel like showering, upset stomach etc etc. I immediately consider sex cancelled for the day. This would happen perhaps 9/10 times over the course of many many weeks. And like yourself, sex is on her terms, time of day, position, place,. etc

She is not hurtful about it, only indirectly as it results in rejection for me. 

Last year I made an effort to initiate at what I thought were good times only to hear multiple excuses as the timing was out of her comfort zone.

All this was not an issue before marriage. 

Has anything changed with you that would cause him to be this way? Would you get annoyed with him if he left the toilet seat up? or bother him for unimportant things? are you an independent person or do you need hand holding by your H?

Sorry for the direct questions.


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## Mishy (Mar 28, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> He said I was way too sensitive. That I shouldn't take a "no" so personally. When I explained and gave him some examples of things he had said, he said he couldn't remember. No apology for hurting me.
> 
> I think he lacks empathy. He of course sees this from a different perspective, which is fair, but cannot or will not listen to what I am saying and think how this looks and feels in my shoes.


Hi Walkingwounded,

my wife does that too. She says that I am too sensitive.Never an apology for hurting me.

It's sad when a tv show and a glass of wine can easily take the place of making love. 
So I am loosing interest in "waiting" for the right moment. I just dive deeply into my hobbies and that helps me a lot.
But some days I really miss the intimacy of sex, and the fact of being wanted. I am only 30 years old and It doesn't feels right to be in this kind of situation.

I think she is beginning to understand though. She initiated a couple of times last week and was great sex. But all the same I question myself if it's right for her to hold so much power over me. And sometimes I want to turn her down to give her some taste of her own medicine. I try to not build up resentment but sometime it's hard to let go.


@ Hurra
My wife too makes "excuses" (doesn't want to shower/tired/"I'm grumpy"/"I just want to relax"). This stuff is really a turn off for me, and sometimes I get angry. What do you do when she does that?


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

> I think she is beginning to understand though. She initiated a couple of times last week and was great sex. But all the same I question myself if it's right for her to hold so much power over me. And sometimes I want to turn her down to give her some taste of her own medicine. I try to not build up resentment but sometime it's hard to let go.


Yes! It's bull**** that the LD partner gets to hold all the cards. Sex is never a sure thing, and it should be; it's almost entirely up to her mood and whims. She can wake up in the morning and decide whether or not to have sex tonite. I think about it all day, get my hopes up that maybe I'll get lucky, and then get shot down for no good reason. I don't think she understands what this feels like and how this is a power imbalance, and won't unless the tables are ever reversed.




> My wife too makes "excuses" (doesn't want to shower/tired/"I'm grumpy"/"I just want to relax"). This stuff is really a turn off for me, and sometimes I get angry. What do you do when she does that?


My thing is, if I was expecting sex and get turned down, there are times when I voice my disappointment honestly and openly.. she needs to know when this bothers me. The problem is she's already too tired to have any kind of productive discussion, so I'm talking to a brick wall. She gets increasingly exasperated telling me to shut up and that she just wants to go to sleep; I get no reassurance that she understood or cares about any of what I just said.. instead I'm belittled, compared to a little kid begging for candy when I feel like I'm in the desert gasping for water.

and what bugs me the most is *the whole exchange takes much longer than a nice quick bj would have taken.* She makes it so damn complicated when it's really not. Just do it.. we could go to bed happy, win, win. 

Last night we had dinner with some of her ladyfriends from work. She didn't bring a playpen or toys to occupy the baby.. I spent a solid hour after dinner chasing him around the house, trying to occupy him and keep him from knocking stuff over while she chatted away, showing them her blog .. knowing it was well past his bedtime and that he was getting cranky and tired. I know she doesn't get to do this often, so I endured it and didn't make any objection until after we left. All I said was, next time we're bringing a playpen. She said she was sorry. 

She should have been kissing my feet and thanking me for being so patient at dinnertime so she could enjoy herself.. but this was barely recognized at all. Instead she was typically critical about really petty things around the house and just generally cranky. It's just all about HER being tired and getting her precious good night's sleep.. when we stayed much longer for dinner than we should have.	

I think our saving grace is that the arguing is not happening as often as it used to. I think we are slowly improving but last night was a setback. But when it does happen it's like we just undid whatever progress we might have made. She's just so damn _inconsistent_ - I'm sure it has to do with her cycle and some work related stress. But it doesn't seem fair when i jump through so many hoops, trying so hard to please her outside the bedroom and asking for very little.. and not only do I get denied this basic request because she's tired; I'm villanized for being unhappy about it.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

nader, I get that about being made to feel bad for being upset. My H knows I will get upset with his stupid comments. Yet still feels the need to say them and villify me for being upset. It is allmost like he is deflecting things back on to me to make me look like the bad guy. Thus avoiding the issue.

I have really cut way down on the nice stuff I do for him. I am not unpleasant at all. I just have stopped all those little things. I know he has noticed but he is either not getting the connection or not saying anything about it. I have also made a MAJOR change in not initiating any "serious talks." I have allways done this and he hates it. I have actively avoided relationship discussions. That is on me really. No one wants that every week , but also it gives him the space to think and come to me.

deejov I think some of what you said could be very insightfull and valuable to my situation. I shall think some more about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

Honestly the pulling back didnt work for me, i thought it would make my wife notice something was up, but after 6 months of not initiating we have had zero sex and shes fine with it, has no desire to change. After talking to her she finally agreed to see a Dr. although im pretty sure she already had the appointment scheduled and actually just a yearly check up  

Either way i think backing off just puts him in control and leaves you wanting more. I would recommend open communication and some therapy so he better learns to compromise and meet your needs.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

I no longer initiate with my wife either, have not for years. I have instead just told her honestly, if you EVER want me, I am a green light. Basically what I have done is surrendered my sex life to my wife because I have given up hope of having a sex life other than when she wants it. The way I look at it is this-when she does initiate, TYPICALLY that means she WANTS it and thus that makes it better sex. So, the quantity is much lower than I want but the quality is always top notch. 

Sometimes I do find myself thinking, man, I am really horny maybe I will try tonight but usually she drops a hint letting me know to forget about it-tired, headache, work to get done before going to bed, etc. 

I think there is a big difference between the higher drive person and the lower drive person in MOST relationships-it is simply this. For the higher drive person typically there is NOTHING that will cause them to say no to sex. As I have told my wife, if it is 2am and I am sound asleep, if you so happen to wake up to pee and are horny, wake my ass up and although it might take me a few seconds to get focused, I will be ready to go. 

With the lower drive person, if ANYTHING comes along during a day/night, it will take over as most important. So, even if the lower drive person had intentions of sex that night for example, if they are tired, something comes up around the house or with work/kids, that takes over as the top priority and sex get bumped off the list. 

It is ALL about priorities in life. For a man or woman that views sex as a vital/important issue in the marriage, sex is a high priority to them. For a lower drive person who does not view sex as a high priority in marriage, sex is a much lower priority. In many cases, the lower drive person realizes that the high drive person does value sex as very important but let's face, most people you encounter in your life tend to be selfish. All people can be selfish at times and in fact, there are many times when the lower drive person thinks the higher drive person is being selfish for wanting sex more often than they think is needed. It is truly a shame that it appears so many sexually mismatched folks end up paired together.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Another voice in the wilderness here too!

I pretty much stopped intiating too in the past 4 weeks or so for many of the same reasons others here have cited.

I know she's noticed and she actually hinted around it a few weeks ago when she told me that her girlfriend said that since the GF became menopausaul, her libido has plummeted. I told her mine has been unchanged for years.

In retrospect, what I should have said was "So, Kristin's libidio is down because of menopause. What's your excuse?"

Opportunity lost!


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## Mishy (Mar 28, 2012)

nader said:


> Yes! It's bull**** that the LD partner gets to hold all the cards. Sex is never a sure thing, and it should be; it's almost entirely up to her mood and whims. She can wake up in the morning and decide whether or not to have sex tonite. I think about it all day, get my hopes up that maybe I'll get lucky, and then get shot down for no good reason. I don't think she understands what this feels like and how this is a power imbalance, and won't unless the tables are ever reversed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


After reading "no more mr nice guy" I make clear when I want sex. Lately I was rejected less than usual, maybe I was lucky?Change of season?Or maybe something is changing for good?

I don't know because I don't talk about wanting sex with her anymore.It's a lost battle even before I start.I just tell her my needs. 

Sometimes when I am turned on It p*sses me off the fact that I feel like a hungry dog looking for crumbs or leftovers because I don't know if I will be "allowed" or not to have my meal. This is why I stopped worring and initiating so much. I still do but much less than before. 

The thing is she likes sex. I don't understand why she makes it so hard. If there is a problem about how we make love she should tell me. I asked her many times and she said all was great. So I don't ask her anymore. 


It's interesting and sad at the same time to know that there are many people with this same very "problem".


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## Mishy (Mar 28, 2012)

Toffer said:


> In retrospect, what I should have said was "So, Kristin's libidio is down because of menopause. What's your excuse?"
> 
> Opportunity lost!


:iagree::rofl:


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Mishy
It makes no sense, because it's hardly ever really about "sex".
Sure she likes it. but there is another problem going on. Usually.


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## Mishy (Mar 28, 2012)

deejov said:


> Mishy
> It makes no sense, because it's hardly ever really about "sex".
> Sure she likes it. but there is another problem going on. Usually.


I agree. But what it is? That's a million dollar question.
Talking to her doesn't work for me so I am observing her behaviour to try to understand why.
I checked emails/phone/fb etc. and it's all clean. The other thing I can do is to track her with a gps or hire a P.I. but I don't think there is anything to find on that matter.


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## geek down (May 10, 2012)

I tried that with my STBXW.. She would only touch me when I was sleeping...thats the only time she would start anything.. I sleep naked, but I'm usually naked anyway..so its not that..

I stopped initiating it.. After a month she'd start to cry and tell me I don't want her anymore.. yet she never would touch me, unless I made the first round of moves..then if she didn't reject me, the sex became mechanical and unappealing..

This women doesn't know the importance of foreplay.. it was always RUN TO THE GOAL!!! GET THE THE END!! and then?....off to the shower to get clean...No oral....I mean she'd start..but never finish...always too busy to get her rocks off two or three times to my one...IF there is one..

I felt the same way... It was either mechanical and usually unrewarding...OR...nothing at all.. I had to fight for a kiss when she'd come home from work...She couldn't even remember that!

BJ?? HUH...whats that???? I told her once she doesn't understand the power of a BJ...She answered in her usual way...which is not to answer at all..


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

PAPS18 said:


> I no longer initiate with my wife either, have not for years. I have instead just told her honestly, if you EVER want me, I am a green light. Basically what I have done is surrendered my sex life to my wife because I have given up hope of having a sex life other than when she wants it. The way I look at it is this-when she does initiate, TYPICALLY that means she WANTS it and thus that makes it better sex. So, the quantity is much lower than I want but the quality is always top notch.
> 
> Sometimes I do find myself thinking, man, I am really horny maybe I will try tonight but usually she drops a hint letting me know to forget about it-tired, headache, work to get done before going to bed, etc.
> 
> ...


This plan would probably work pretty well...as long as the HD partner never expects anything resembling happiness and they also never have any other significant need. If my partner can't be bothered to occasionally attend to her husband's sexual needs (which cost her nothing and require only about 30 minutes of her time) what happens if someday I can't feed myself, dress myself, or attend to other life functions without assistance? She'd be as useless as teats on a bull. The best I could hope for is to die before I actually needed anything from such a woman.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> This plan would probably work pretty well...as long as the HD partner never expects anything resembling happiness and they also never have any other significant need. If my partner can't be bothered to occasionally attend to her husband's sexual needs (which cost her nothing and require only about 30 minutes of her time) what happens if someday I can't feed myself, dress myself, or attend to other life functions without assistance? She'd be as useless as teats on a bull. The best I could hope for is to die before I actually needed anything from such a woman.


That is a worrying perspective that gives a lot of food for thought.

I got up earlier then sneaked back into bed. Felt good, had a great night's sleep, fabulous day outside and plus let H lay in a little which I know he loves.

Jump in and snuggle up and start kissing his back and neck. He doesn't move. Do it a little more. He wriggles over from the edge of the bed... And tells me he feels like he's being smothered.

Ouch. My instinct is to get upset but I think no, LISTEN to what he is saying. So I shimmy over a little to give him space and lay next to him. He shuts his eyes and looks like he's napping. I stay where I am. Five minutes and nothing so I get up and leave. A waste as we are childfree but hey. I (foolishly) tried.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Wiley Coyote keeps trying, too. It's what we do.


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Wiley Coyote keeps trying, too. It's what we do.


Such a shame that the Road Runner doesn't just "let" himself get caught every now and then isn't it?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Or Wiley could just pick something else to eat and call it a day.


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## Mishy (Mar 28, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> Ouch. My instinct is to get upset but I think no, LISTEN to what he is saying. So I shimmy over a little to give him space and lay next to him. He shuts his eyes and looks like he's napping. I stay where I am. Five minutes and nothing so I get up and leave. A waste as we are childfree but hey. I (foolishly) tried.



That hurts. 
What you described there is one of the reason I stopped trying and started saying clearly that I want to make love.

But lately I feel some resentment because I want to feel desired more than have sex. Feeling wanted and a bit special from my wife is a huge turn on for me. And now I just feel plain like anybody.





unbelievable said:


> Wiley Coyote keeps trying, too. It's what we do.


You made me smile unbelievable. That was one of my favourite cartoons.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mishy said:


> That hurts.
> What you described there is one of the reason I stopped trying and started saying clearly that I want to make love.
> 
> But lately I feel some resentment because I want to feel desired more than have sex. Feeling wanted and a bit special from my wife is a huge turn on for me. And now I just feel plain like anybody.
> ...


That second part you wrote, about wanting to be desired? Me too. I *so* get that.

My "fail" earlier? This is what he had to say...

He was sleepy, hot and sweaty and had a full bladder. He did not want me smothering him or laying on him whilst he felt like that. 

Here I obviously listened and gave him some space so he could get comfy. It seems however my MAJOR mistake here was to lay there after I gave him some space. He thought I was upset. I was actually "giving him some space." He says at that point I should have said something. Apparently he was not saying no. I asked him what he thought I should have said? "Get your c*ck out". Um he knew full well my intentions. He was the one that wanted me off him yet I'm supposed to jump on him? Contradiction or what??? 

*headspins*

He says my communication sucks. Right. He says I should say then how I feel, at the time, rather than not and then it coming out later. Yet he gets annoyed that I am upset? So I'm supposed to tell him I'm upset so he can ve annoyed at me? Why? 

Oh and he says sex is "just" sex. He says it's just a physical act. He doesn't feel an emotional connection through it and he feels that connection more through us spending time together.

And deejov was right earlier ^^^^^ He feels pressure from me to make me happy. I explained it was not that. It was that I need to know and feel reassured of his desire for me after his EA. His response? "Why didn't you just say that in the first place?" Me: "I HAVE. I HAVE told you." He has no recollection of this.

And so we go on...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

When I have a full bladder, I adjourn to an appropriate place and empty it. A full bladder is a piss-poor (pun intended) excuse for pushing one's wife away.


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## Mishy (Mar 28, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> When I have a full bladder, I adjourn to an appropriate place and empty it. A full bladder is a piss-poor (pun intended) excuse for pushing one's wife away.


:iagree: 100%!!

I am of the opinion that if you really want something you go and get it.At least you make some sort of effort. Otherwise is BS.




walkingwounded said:


> He was sleepy, hot and sweaty and had a full bladder. He did not want me smothering him or laying on him whilst he felt like that.
> 
> Here I obviously listened and gave him some space so he could get comfy. It seems however my MAJOR mistake here was to lay there after I gave him some space. He thought I was upset. I was actually "giving him some space." He says at that point I should have said something. Apparently he was not saying no. I asked him what he thought I should have said? "Get your c*ck out". Um he knew full well my intentions. He was the one that wanted me off him yet I'm supposed to jump on him? Contradiction or what???
> 
> ...


It's always like walking on eggshells when dealing with a LD partner/spouse. It's like trying your best to "make everything perfect".But that does not work. And I am very tired of that.

I also see classic blameshifting in your situation. You tried and he said "no" (and with a lame excuse) and then he tried to make you feel bad because you "didn't try the way you're supposed to".

Sex is just "sex"?Wow.That would have offended me more than anything. But that's me.
How are you guys doing out of bed?Is affection and care for each other still there or not?

To me he seems very disconnected from you. Especially now that you mentioned his EA it seems that there is no spark for you in him at the moment.

Hope the wind is going to change for you two.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I actually joked earlier that if he could give me a written list of appropriate times to initiate, it would save all this stress. Like Friday evenings at 9:30 and so on. He smiled but didn't comment.

Yeah the "sex is just sex" comment hurt. He has said it before once. My response both times was "well I could be anyone then?" He says no. He also said when we first met our relationship was mainly about sex, and as time has gone by we had to make a more "mature" connection ( I cannot remember exactly how he phrased it but I understood it as we had to be more grown up as we had commitments.)

t this point I do not know what to think. I am incredibly hurt and the complete irony is that I don't feel like having ANY sex with him. He allways says if I said no to him he wouldn't mind. No OK, but of course I'd never be nasty about him asking. He seems to be trying to convince me now that I have imagined his hurtfull responses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Even if you don't especially want something, if you're in a committed relationship with someone you purport to give two cents about, you don't shove them away like garbage when they come to you for affection. Where else would he like for her to go to have her needs met? I'm wandering around endlessly in the Nookie Sahara and he's shoving it away! If these folks don't like sex or romance, why do they get married? There's no law requiring folks to pair up.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Even if you don't especially want something, if you're in a committed relationship with someone you purport to give two cents about, you don't shove them away like garbage when they come to you for affection. Where else would he like for her to go to have her needs met? I'm wandering around endlessly in the Nookie Sahara and he's shoving it away! If these folks don't like sex or romance, why do they get married? There's no law requiring folks to pair up.


You know unbelieveable, I have said that there are lots of husbands who would give anything to have a W who was so open and willing to give in their sex lives. He says there are more like him than I think and not everyone is sex mad? I said I'm not sex "mad" but have a healthy desire. He says nothing to that.

I feel so very lonely right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hurra (Sep 13, 2009)

They get married because that is the expectation. They want the picket fence, kids, a husband to do husband things. Also the big wedding day. Many think of themselves here and not the true demands of marriage. 

I didnt 'need' to get married. I wanted to. My wife felt like she needed to. 

Hello, I felt pressure to get married too from society and family / friends. But I wasn't settling with someone. I just ignored the many warning signs with my wife.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Walking,

Hang in there. Alot of us are going through the same issues and are in the same place you are now. 

I am planning on Friday as the day to deal with all this (yet again) because after Thursday her life should ease up a bit until fall. Planning on taking half of Friday off to allow enough time to work through this a bit

I know how damaging and soul crushing this can be and how it causes you to question almost everything about yourself. I hate feeling this way and I have inserted other things into my life to balance it out (friends, hobbies) but the problem I find with that is although I feel a bit better about myself, I find myself caring less for her. Can't see the good in that yet. Feel as if I am detaching myself more like I was definitely preparing to move on (who knows, maybe I am)

Anyway, good luck. I truly hope it gets better for you


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Toffer said:


> Walking,
> 
> Hang in there. Alot of us are going through the same issues and are in the same place you are now.
> 
> ...


I also am starting to feel somewhat detached. It is a weird feeling for someone who considers themself to be the hotter spouse. I think that allthough it feels different and a little lonely, it is good because it means I have the space to consider things properly. 

I don't know about everyone else's spouse ( would be interesting to hear actually) but my H says his rejections are NOT about me. I hear this but it is so hard to not feel that it somehow is. At the moment I just foresee years upon years of this. 

Toffer : have you talked much to your W about it before? I have allways been a "talker" but now I feel discussing it is fruitless. Even though my H has given me suggestions I really feel they are sidesteps. Deflecting the issue. He says if I did x or y or z he sure wouldn't turn me down. OK but I used to do xyz and... He turned me down. So I stopped doing them.

I guess I'm asking what will your approach be? Is it a "I need this from you or I am leaving" ultimatum? Or an attempt to work things out from both sides? What point are you at?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

What I have found to be the most powerful catalyst for change is to be willing to lose it all. Without ever threatening anything, my wife knows this.

I went through all the needs mumbo jumbo but I am no victim and it is not my style to proclaim what I need from anyone. I am independent and resourceful and I will find the love I deserve (guys do things this way, sorry). I have told my wife so many times that I hope that it will be with her. 

The MMSL concepts of sex rank do disrupt the status quo and my new body, new friends, new interests have captured her attention and she is extremely uncomfortable with all of it. I don't know if we will find a compromise but there is lots of talking and lots of jockeying for understanding going on. There is also lots more intimacy but it will all go poof should I decide to stop the texting/hand holding/shopping together/conversing/lunching/kissing on the bridge Games.

If I were a husband who was leaving his wife unsatisfied, I would think the thought that would keep me awake at night would be someone else satisfying you and sweeping you away.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Cre8ify said:


> What I have found to be the most powerful catalyst for change is to be willing to lose it all. Without ever threatening anything, my wife knows this.
> 
> I went through all the needs mumbo jumbo but I am no victim and it is not my style to proclaim what I need from anyone. I am independent and resourceful and I will find the love I deserve (guys do things this way, sorry). I have told my wife so many times that I hope that it will be with her.
> 
> ...


A question... If it is not your style to proclaim what you need from anyone, then how do you operate? I ask this genuinely : should your wife just "know"? How does she know if she is coming up short in any area if you don't tell her? How do you work this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

That is the 64 thousand dollar question and great that is was posed by a woman to man. If she is to feel secure, he is to have command and be proactive in managing affairs of the family. Any sign of weakness and she loses attraction to him. He is to be open and honest in matters of the heart. Share one too many sensitivities or expectations and it is a lack of confidence. He is to be a considerate and helpful partner but woe be to the husband who is too quick to offer help.

Framing the issue as what it could be seems to work better for me than whining for what I need. That's more like "if we can try..." as opposed to "what I need from you ...". Lately, it is more like establishing boundaries of behavior that will or won't fly...not challenging the partner, rather the behavoir.

If my process worked so well I wouldn't be in MC.


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## Mishy (Mar 28, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> I also am starting to feel somewhat detached. It is a weird feeling for someone who considers themself to be the hotter spouse. I think that allthough it feels different and a little lonely, it is good because it means I have the space to consider things properly.
> 
> I don't know about everyone else's spouse ( would be interesting to hear actually) but my H says his rejections are NOT about me. I hear this but it is so hard to not feel that it somehow is. At the moment I just foresee years upon years of this.


For me is the same. My wife says "it's not you, it's me". Well I am starting to think that it's me for sure. She is a hot girl, and was never shy sexually. But now sex is there only whe SHE needs it. 
I think she is not in love with me anymore  . 
Today we talked again about sex. I didn't wanted to but she was keen. She said that she wants it but she doesn't feel the need for it. Pretty akward sentence to me. Just to f*ck with my head once more.

I don't know what else to think/do.:scratchhead:


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mishy said:


> For me is the same. My wife says "it's not you, it's me". Well I am starting to think that it's me for sure. She is a hot girl, and was never shy sexually. But now sex is there only whe SHE needs it.
> I think she is not in love with me anymore  .
> Today we talked again about sex. I didn't wanted to but she was keen. She said that she wants it but she doesn't feel the need for it. Pretty akward sentence to me. Just to f*ck with my head once more.
> 
> I don't know what else to think/do.:scratchhead:


Mishy, no wonder you are confused! What does that sentence even mean???

Me and my H spoke about stuff last night. Wasn't planned but it was getting to me.

Not sure how I feel. We got through a LOT. He seems to understand... But then he does every time we talk then claims he doesn't remember a few weeks later. So we will see.

He suggested set days in the week. This is a good idea. My worry is having to bring it up. I have pretty much blocked out thinking about initiating. I won't lie, I am incredibly resentfull. If I get all dolled up and he turns me down... Well. I would flip out.

I see he is making an effort. So I will meet him half way. If it goes the same way as every other time... I will really have to consider what to do then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mishy (Mar 28, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> Mishy, no wonder you are confused! What does that sentence even mean???
> 
> Me and my H spoke about stuff last night. Wasn't planned but it was getting to me.
> 
> ...


Well,I think that sentence means that I am not priority anymore. It's all her. I feel taken for granted.
I feel lost again.It's like a rollercoaster, and I think that's why I feel so confused.


It's a good thing your husband is willing to make an effort. Give him time (2-3 weeks) and try not to get mad/upset/hurt if he turns you down.

I really hope this works for you guys because I understand all the resentment you are feeling right now.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> I also am starting to feel somewhat detached. It is a weird feeling for someone who considers themself to be the hotter spouse. I think that allthough it feels different and a little lonely, it is good because it means I have the space to consider things properly.
> 
> I don't know about everyone else's spouse ( would be interesting to hear actually) but my H says his rejections are NOT about me. I hear this but it is so hard to not feel that it somehow is. At the moment I just foresee years upon years of this.
> 
> ...


Walk,

Yes, we've talked, read the books and articles and things get better....for a while.

A few months back I thought we were on the same page when she said that she had also learned that sex for men is how we bond with our wives. I thought I saw the light bulb above her head and thought "Yes! This has GOT to be a good sign". 

Yep, you guessed it, back to the same old same old. That's when I stopped intiating. I did fall off the wagon twice but she did intiate once

Don't think It will be an absolute ultimatum. I am hoping for an open discussion about her issues with me too because as much as I like to think that i am Mr Wonderful, I know I am not.

Other than this one issue, I love everything about her and she takes great care of me, the kids, the house etc. but as you and some of the others have pointed out, I just don't feel truly and deeply loved by her.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Toffer : I hope it goes well for you. May be a mutual agreement if she has issues with you also, is the way to go. Like, you will work on being more affectionate how she would like if she agrees to Tuesday and Saturday sex. Or similar. You get the idea. Then it isn't one sided.

I am pondering things here. My H told me as I mentioned that sex is just sex to him. Seems he doesn't fit this stuff that is talked about so often on here where men show love through sex. He says to him it is just a physical act. But that I couldn't be "just anyone" like I suggested when he said that. I don't know if he believes it or he's mixed up. It just feels sad to think that I am feeling a great connection when we have good sex and he is... Well, just wanting to get off. And that that is how it is for him every time. Makes me feel like his blow up doll.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mishy (Mar 28, 2012)

Toffer said:


> Walk,
> 
> Yes, we've talked, read the books and articles and things get better....for a while.
> 
> ...


Hi Toffer. I feel kind of the same. How do you cope with the fact that you don't feel truly and deeply loved by her? It drives me mad.
I started to believe it's true when I notice that I am looking forward to come home and see her while she is not looking forward to come home to see me. She says it or text me sometimes, but then when she's home it's just a kiss on the lips, 1-3 minutes hug/cuddling, and then she's done with me and starts to do other stuff (watching tv-shows mostly). I also notice that she doesn't touch my body other than hugging or leaning on me.

Anyone else is experiencing this? It's driving me crazy!


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mishy said:


> Hi Toffer. I feel kind of the same. How do you cope with the fact that you don't feel truly and deeply loved by her? It drives me mad.
> I started to believe it's true when I notice that I am looking forward to come home and see her while she is not looking forward to come home to see me. She says it or text me sometimes, but then when she's home it's just a kiss on the lips, 1-3 minutes hug/cuddling, and then she's done with me and starts to do other stuff (watching tv-shows mostly). I also notice that she doesn't touch my body other than hugging or leaning on me.
> 
> Anyone else is experiencing this? It's driving me crazy!


Yes I have that to a degree also.

I look forward to my H getting home. I am at home with the littlest in the day as well as doing some work from home. To me it is great when he gets back. For him I don't know. Sometimes he is dirty from work and doesn't want to be touched til he has cleaned up. Or he just wants some space. He rarely comes in and shows he is pleased to see me. And he NEVER sends me messages or calls to say he is missing me, can't wait to come home to see me.

He said the other day when we talked that he goes to work, puts food on the table and brings home the money and I should just be grateful for that. The thing is I *am* gratefull. He knows as I tell him and show him. It is the inference that I should not have needs outside of that. I get that his thinking there is incredibly "male." 

To highlight the positives, we had our first scheduled night last night. He brought it up and arranged the day. He also brought it up last night and asked what I would like to do for our "romantic evening" (his words!) 

I said I would like us to snuggle on the sofa together. I would have been more than happy just to do that all evening but he suggested getting cosier. It was a pretty nice evening and am pleased he made an obvious effort to do something for me. I feel touched. Am just about to fire off a "last night was great" message to him whilst he is at work ( words of affirmation.) 

Hope you guys are all hanging in there!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Mishy said:


> Hi Toffer. I feel kind of the same. How do you cope with the fact that you don't feel truly and deeply loved by her? It drives me mad.
> I started to believe it's true when I notice that I am looking forward to come home and see her while she is not looking forward to come home to see me. She says it or text me sometimes, but then when she's home it's just a kiss on the lips, 1-3 minutes hug/cuddling, and then she's done with me and starts to do other stuff (watching tv-shows mostly). I also notice that she doesn't touch my body other than hugging or leaning on me.
> 
> Anyone else is experiencing this? It's driving me crazy!


Mishy,

I guess the answer is that while I may not feel that I am loved, the truth is that I know I am. What's lacking is the physical aspect.

Like you, the feeling about not being loved does come out at times based on what happens (or doesn't happen) when there's time and opportunity. Know what I mean?

Before I started backing off a bit, I did notice I was having some success with being more aggressive with her. She seemed to like that. Is that soemrthing you can try when you get home or are there kids to worry about?

Walking, sounds like progress to me! Not only should you work on those words of confirmation, maybe do something special just for him when her gets home tonight?


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Mishy said:


> For me is the same. My wife says "it's not you, it's me". Well I am starting to think that it's me for sure. She is a hot girl, and was never shy sexually. But now sex is there only whe SHE needs it.
> I think she is not in love with me anymore  .
> Today we talked again about sex. I didn't wanted to but she was keen. She said that she wants it but she doesn't feel the need for it. Pretty akward sentence to me. Just to f*ck with my head once more.
> 
> I don't know what else to think/do.:scratchhead:


Mishy, right there with you, the it's not you its me. I've read it all, tried it all, talked, talked some more, explained my needs, asked her what does she need from, blah, blah, blah and more blah. let go of my resentment, but damn it I'm a man..I need sex/love from MY wife....she told me she dosent like sex, never really did, she will have sex with me, but bascialy lays there, wont look at me, kiss me..nothing..I gave up and dont intiate anymore

so last night we talk yet again and I told her this is bacially what I heard by those words " you know all those years we made love and I called your name, the times we had sex to have sex and how important it was to you and how you thought we were bonding, well it was all pretend, I never really did, and you can have sex with me, i'll be there, but i wont, i wont look at you or kiss, I'll let you know how repulsed I am by you, i am not attracted to you etc etc" she just lookd at me and bawled and said thats not what i said, 
I was like ok thats what I heard, explain it to me...So she proceeds to tell me shes changed, and dosent want to be touched or to have sex, and she dosent know why shes has these feelings or lack of for me...I honestly believe her, she dosent know why, she knows its killing me and hurting me, i can see that it hurts her too, she said she dosent blame me for feeling so bad and she has no idea what to do, and that I'm asking her to be somebody shes not, I was like wth happened, you seemed to before, i feel like I was mislead,lied to...this has been over a year, she wont read any of the books or try to find some middle ground

So i threw it out there, hey if you want to live like roomates, thats fine, I'll move into the spare room oppsite side of the house, you do your thing I'll do mine, the spare room is closer to the exit of the house and I said that would be better because I wont be around much and distrub you coming and going at late hours...she said she if thats what I want, I said no thats not what I want but what esle am I to do? so I lay it out like this, ok I understand how you feel, you dont like sex, ok i got it..I dont want you to do something you dislike or feel uncomfortable with and thats ok, but thats the posistion I'm being put into, youre ok with being celibate in this marriage am I supposed to be to?
We have been like this for so long now and I'm the only one trying to figure it out....
so I went out last night got home late, slept in the spare room and plan on moving in there this weekend.

she siad she wouldnt blame me or be mad if I left, she would understand why...

I have no effen clue what to do or try, I guess I'll ride this train for a bit and see what happens...........


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Struggling,

Sorry to say but her actions (or lack thereof) speaks volumes about what she really feels about you.

Her refusal to read any of the books or find a middle ground is very telling

Have you ruled out physical issues (has she seen an MD?) 
What about a sex therapist or some kind of counselor?

I am truly sorry for your pain but I do feel you are going about things the right way. So, why stay?


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Toffer said:


> Struggling,
> 
> Sorry to say but her actions (or lack thereof) speaks volumes about what she really feels about you.
> No kidding, I know that, even told her the same
> ...


Who knows what the right way is? why stay? I love her, thru better or worse, I'm wondering if its something from her past, some trama or something, should I completly jump ship if it is something along those lines? Why are you staying?


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## Hurra (Sep 13, 2009)

If she says she would understand why you would leave then she wants out. That's your golden ticket. Not that this situation is golden.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Struggling, as you have probably realized, I am female. In past relationships I have felt similarly towards partners as your W does towards you.

In my case? It had nothing to do with how I felt towards them as a "companion" if you like. One in particular was great company, we had lots in common and he adored me. I just didn't feel "it" for him. You know, that sexual attraction. At the time I was younger and didn't understand the dynamics of the male-female attraction like I do now. I felt bad for him. 

Had I known what I know now, it probably would not have gone to pieces like it did. What I am saying is if there is some way you could may be "involve" her in this realm (lol) without pressurizing her into it, that may help. I would also consider some of the popular threads in the Men's Clubhouse about being attractive to your wife. Of course it isn't *that* straightforward but if she doesn't understand herself then "showing" her rather than getting her to see the error of her ways may be a more productive way forward if that makes sense?

And for me? I was out with my oldest children last night. Quality time with them but also a little absence for my H to miss me.

He told me later he'd been looking at porn to get off. I don't mind porn, but it irks me that he does that when he could direct that energy towards me! 

I didn't want to sulk over it so I was good and articulated briefly and to the point " I wish you would wait for me.". And that was it. Feel pleased for saying that then and not thinking it over and getting cross later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mishy (Mar 28, 2012)

strugglinghusband said:


> Mishy, right there with you, the it's not you its me. I've read it all, tried it all, talked, talked some more, explained my needs, asked her what does she need from, blah, blah, blah and more blah. let go of my resentment, but damn it I'm a man..I need sex/love from *MY wife....she told me she dosent like sex, never really did,* she will have sex with me, but bascialy lays there, wont look at me, kiss me..nothing..I gave up and dont intiate anymore
> 
> so last night we talk yet again and I told her this is bacially what I heard by those words " you know all those years we made love and I called your name, the times we had sex to have sex and how important it was to you and how you thought we were bonding, well it was all pretend, I never really did, and you can have sex with me, i'll be there, but i wont, i wont look at you or kiss, I'll let you know how repulsed I am by you, i am not attracted to you etc etc" she just lookd at me and bawled and said thats not what i said,
> I was like ok thats what I heard, explain it to me...So she proceeds to tell me shes changed, and dosent want to be touched or to have sex, and she dosent know why shes has these feelings or lack of for me...I honestly believe her, she dosent know why, she knows its killing me and hurting me, i can see that it hurts her too, she said she dosent blame me for feeling so bad and she has no idea what to do, and that I'm asking her to be somebody shes not, I was like wth happened, you seemed to before, i feel like I was mislead,lied to...this has been over a year, she wont read any of the books or try to find some middle ground
> ...


@Strugglinghusband
The difference between my wife and yours is that mine like sex!And when we make love she is very involved. We both like it when we have sex. My problem is "getting there", I don't want to force her into sex but why should I renounce? we are still young (30) and no kids. If not now, when should we enjoy sex?

I wonder why YOU moved into the spare room and not HER. You are the one who is left there with your needs unfulfilled.

If I was you I would consider divorce. I could not live with someone like your wife. I would rather being alone.

My situation is like a rollercoster..one month is good and maybe then is bad for 2 months..I am giving us some time, but sooner or later things have to change.




walkingwounded said:


> Struggling, as you have probably realized, I am female. In past relationships I have felt similarly towards partners as your W does towards you.
> 
> In my case? It had nothing to do with how I felt towards them as a "companion" if you like. One in particular was great company, we had lots in common and he adored me. I just didn't feel "it" for him. You know, that sexual attraction. At the time I was younger and didn't understand the dynamics of the male-female attraction like I do now. I felt bad for him


@ Walkingwounded
Maybe what you describe there is my wife's feeling about me? If so I don't think I can fix it. :scratchhead:


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

We have some progress. Not in the best way but still it is all food for thought...

Had an allmighty "argument" yesterday. I say "argument" but truthfully he has opening up so I tried REALLY hard not to be defensive but just _let him talk._ 

So much came out. I'm still processing it to be honest so this may be a little garbled.

He says he does not have a problem with the sex per se. It is the emotion that goes with it. He feels no freedom to say no and it be accepted as just that.

The emotion also encompasses other aspects of our marriage. He feels an intense need from me for him to validate me. That I look to him to make me happy. That he is my near sole source of entertainment. Sometimes he just wants to be on his own yet feels that he is expected to be on call. Says he hasn't played Xbox for months for fear of me being upset at him for being in the other room in the evening.

He says I have not initiated in around six months now that he can remember. He says he has no way turned me down a much as I say because he cannot remember the last time I initiated. That if I want to have sex then I need to say "can we have sex?"

Now. I can safely say that my recollections and feelings do not align with most of this. There is a HUGE disconnect here. There are also some worrying points. I have explained how I have shut myself off near completely from initiating because of how much and how severely I have been turned down. His view is that I need to initiate in a more direct way. What he cannot grasp in any way is that I shut down to protect myself from being hurt any more by his rejections. We used to have a "never say no" policy. He has departed from that and will not return to it. In actual fact allthough he has listened to me, his suggestions are all on my shoulders. He has offered solutions but has not offered anything that involves any a) effort on his part and b) acknowledgement of his behavior in consistently rejecting me and how this has affected me.

It seems he is intent on refusing to meet me even halfway with stuff that will help.

He also keeps bringing up stuff I have stopped doing when I started to drop the temperature. He continually brings up how I stopped doing various things and "why should he make an effort" when I stopped doing these things he likes? He steadfastly refuses to see or understand that I stopped doing these things IN RESPONSE TO this situation. It quite literally looks like he wants me to revert back to doing all this stuff for him, stop being upset at his rejections and leave him to it without him actually doing anything at all.

Of course I realize I can't change HIM. But it is looking more and more like he wouldn't be happy untill we were married but living in separate houses so can have all the space he wants!

I just really don't like him very much at the moment. He has this way of acting completely normal after a huge emotinal discussion, not actually acknowledging or offering an awfull lot then when I bring it up as nt being resolved, making out I'm a killjoy and I'm "never happy." Well no because we have't actually sorted anything out!


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## Mishy (Mar 28, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> We have some progress. Not in the best way but still it is all food for thought...
> 
> Had an allmighty "argument" yesterday. I say "argument" but truthfully he has opening up so I tried REALLY hard not to be defensive but just _let him talk._
> 
> ...


My 2 cents after I have been through similar discussions with my wife, and a lot of thinking/frustration/hope/doubt/etc..

I think your Husband doesn't want to make a move at all from where he is. I see a lot of resentment on his part towards you. 
The reason for this?Who knows. You already mentioned his EA, this is a huge sign, and says that maybe he's waiting for "someone else"?

You probably feel on a rollercoaster in your relationship because sometimes things are good and then days later are bad again. It's confusing because sometimes your partner says things but he/she never make a move (lots of talk, zero action).


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

And there is more... I noticed on his phone he has been looking up porn. Usually this does not bother me. However it is clear to see that this week and previous weeks he has been "taking care of things" MORE than we have been having sex.

This is also something we have spoken about. This is crazy. Here I am wanting him to be more intimate with me and telling him to come to me when he is in the mood and what he is actually doing is using up that by himself and not having anything to offer me.

I am really upset right now but not going to approach him yet till have calmed down and thought about what to say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

It's sometimes hard to read posts, and not think about your own situation, and wonder if the same issue is going on with someone else.

I can relate to what you are going through, in the sense that my H also looked at things in a similar manner.

That i put sex as a higher priority than the marriage. That it made him feel used, and I didn't love himself or myself, I needed to have sex to feel wanted. 

And I also stopped initiating, which helped.
When I stopped "doing things for him", that made things worse. 
Like I was punishing him for not putting out. 

And it spiraled. The pressure to have sex, and in his mind it was never enough, and he would never be able to keep up, and I would just leave him for someone who could, so why bother? Because that's all I wanted, wasn't it? 

The red flag I see in a couple of your posts is his reference to you being happy without him "performing". 

He still does initiate, and there are still arguements about it. 
IMO, a man taking care of things himself is acceptable. It's a physical release. Let him have that. That's his space. Stop keeping count \ track of how often you have sex.

Have you read the Five Love Languages and His Needs Her Needs?

Have you considered setting up schedules where you do have a couples night, but also have "alone time"? Do you each do solo things?

Do you trust him to be alone without you? Give him some space to miss you. Seriously consider what he is saying about you being happy without him showing you intimacy.

Does intimacy have to be sex? If it does for you, are you going to mark the health of your relationship by how often you have sex, and will he be able to live up to what you want? It doesn't read like he thinks he can. So are you willing to compromise on that (truly compromising means accepting 2x a week and not arguing about it) and also finding other ways to feel "loved". 

No, you can't change him too much. You can only be clear about what you want from him, and work on yourself as an independent person. 

What you can change, right now, is your mindset about yourself and sex. What you want versus what you need, and decide if you will stay with someone who isn't capable of having sex as often as you want.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

deejov

All input welcome especially if you feel an affinity with the situation.

I cannot respond properly untill later but your experience and thoughts appear to be usefull. I will reply later and thanks 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

The fact that is is taking care of himself complicates things since it is not just a LD situation. He is choosing the path of least resistance rather than dealing with all of the emotional context of being intimate with his partner. That fact that he knows you are hurting and yet withholds any effort to find a connection that can be a tonic for both of you appears weak at best, and inconsiderate at worst. The porn, and its idealized portrayal of fantasyland sex for men will probably not make the emotional part any easier to deal with.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Walking,

I agree alot with Cre8ify. Seems like he may be using the porn as a release because he feels there's too much baggage with having sex with you. I also feel he may have some resentment built up over how he sees you as somewhat needy. 

Deejov had some good points about scheduling both alone and together time.

Also, going out on your own a little bit may make him desire you a little more!


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

deejov said:


> That i put sex as a higher priority than the marriage. That it made him feel used, and I didn't love himself or myself, I needed to have sex to feel wanted.


Interesting perpective. Our is a spin on that. My H thinks I think sex is the be all and end all. He hasn't said about being used as he very much is the one "in control", ie the one who says yes or no. He has said that I judge our marriage and how much he loves me by the amount of sex we have.



> And I also stopped initiating, which helped.
> When I stopped "doing things for him", that made things worse.
> Like I was punishing him for not putting out.


I do not know yet whether stopping initiating has helped or not. I was thinking earlier about the month I went without initiating. Mixed feelings on a personal level. It appears that it kinda passed him by pretty uneventfully...

I hadn't framed the lowering the temp like a punishment. My H has said that in doing that I am ignoring the nice things he does for me which was not my intention.



> And it spiraled. The pressure to have sex, and in his mind it was never enough, and he would never be able to keep up, and I would just leave him for someone who could, so why bother? Because that's all I wanted, wasn't it?


My H has never mentioned this. I think probably because for a lot of it I internalized my pain. To him he is very much the "normal" one and I am faulty in some way. He seems to genuinely have no recollection of the many times I have quoted to him (he asked) of times I actually initiated and he refused me. He allmost seems to think I have actually imagined it.



> The red flag I see in a couple of your posts is his reference to you being happy without him "performing".


Sorry bit lost, can you clarify?



> He still does initiate, and there are still arguements about it.
> IMO, a man taking care of things himself is acceptable. It's a physical release. Let him have that. That's his space. Stop keeping count \ track of how often you have sex.


The jury's still out on this one. He has said that it's just a release and alluded to the fact that it's "easier." The thing is, he has allways taken care of stuff. It was never an issue before. My problem with it is that he is doing it more than we are having sex. And when I say more, like this week we had sex once. He has taken care of stuff or had me do stuff three/four times. He could have chosen any of those times to direct that energy towards me knowing how I feel but has not.

It's hard NOT to keep track. Last year we were intimate about every day. A day off would be a rarity. You can see the real drop from that to what we have now. I have watched it get less and less and worry it will continue.



> Have you read the Five Love Languages and His Needs Her Needs?


Yes. Both. Know them in depth now.



> Have you considered setting up schedules where you do have a couples night, but also have "alone time"? Do you each do solo things?


From around six months ago we have set up a schedule arrangement every time we have had an argument about the drop in frequency. Like clockwork the arrangement has lasted two weeks at best before breaking down. I used to try to get him to agree to days and after that first week he'd go back on it and not pin himself down to a day or time or just allways have a reason why he wasn't in the mood. Over time I stopped pressing him and waited for him to make the moves as I figured he knew the arrangement and would come to me when he was in the mood. Which he didn't and thus it would break down again.

After his EA and some reflection, I knew he would like me to take up a hobby, do something with myself. And I wanted to. So I did. I took up a sport that involves a weekend morning and an evening in the week. Yet this isn't enough and he still wants me to do more. I think he feels it would take this "pressure" off him that he says he feels for him.

He gets out twice a week to meet a friend for beers. Otherwise he likes to do guy stuff like working on the car.



> Do you trust him to be alone without you? Give him some space to miss you. Seriously consider what he is saying about you being happy without him showing you intimacy.


HE does have space to miss me. He just wants MORE space. And what do you mean being happy without intimacy? Do you mean nothing at all? *confused*



> Does intimacy have to be sex? If it does for you, are you going to mark the health of your relationship by how often you have sex, and will he be able to live up to what you want? It doesn't read like he thinks he can. So are you willing to compromise on that (truly compromising means accepting 2x a week and not arguing about it) and also finding other ways to feel "loved".


Intimacy does not have to be sex, no. The trouble is he is not a naturally affectionate person. He has gotten more so but he is so big on "wanting space." I might get him to sit with me on the sofa in the evening may be once a week if I'm lucky. I feel like a chastized child if I ask any more.

If I'm being honest, I could be happy with twice a week if I knew it would be twice a week. The trouble is that this has become not just about the sex but the fact he is so happy to continue along knowing I am struggling and unhappy and not do anything, not make any kind of effort about it. Get angry when I keep bringing it up.



> No, you can't change him too much. You can only be clear about what you want from him, and work on yourself as an independent person.
> 
> What you can change, right now, is your mindset about yourself and sex. What you want versus what you need, and decide if you will stay with someone who isn't capable of having sex as often as you want.


Like I say, it's not just the sex itself. I am so incredibly hurt that for months now he has known how I have felt and will not follow through with anything to compromise. He has admitted more than once that throughout his day the things he thinks about are not me. When he prioritized his day I was not even ON the list. And he didn't even notice until I pointed it out. Everyone else and everything was except me.

We did talk more earlier. I explained that his rejections feel like a knife in my gut. When he had his EA and said he had felt he wasn't sure what he wanted, I handled it all wrong with retrospect. I fought for him rather than him fighting to keep ME. So every rejection is further confirmation to me that I am his second best. The complete irony is that it was his EA that is the root of all this yet he is stepping away from any responsibility for fixing this bit.

We did however clear the air and he reiterated the idea of a schedule, times even. He also asked what would make me feel better. I mentioned if he messaged me from work telling me he missed me when he missed me, or said he couldn't wait to see me. Though I do need to think what else would help and tell him.

He keeps telling me over and over that he does say stuff but I ignore it. I don't. I notice and acknowledge it. It's just that he thinks one "I love you" and "you look nice" has fulfilled his quota for the enxt six months so he doesn't have to say anything else for ages. It has long been an annoyance of mine that he expects me to be able to "know" his feeling about me without a) articulating them or b) showing them. He then gets surprised when I ask him.


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## Mishy (Mar 28, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> Like I say, it's not just the sex itself. I am so incredibly hurt that for months now he has known how I have felt and will not follow through with anything to compromise.* He has admitted more than once that throughout his day the things he thinks about are not me. When he prioritized his day I was not even ON the list.* And he didn't even notice until I pointed it out. Everyone else and everything was except me.
> 
> We did talk more earlier. I explained that his rejections feel like a knife in my gut. When he had his EA and said he had felt he wasn't sure what he wanted, I handled it all wrong with retrospect. I fought for him rather than him fighting to keep ME. So every rejection is further confirmation to me that I am his second best. *The complete irony is that it was his EA that is the root of all this yet he is stepping away from any responsibility for fixing this bit.*


IMHO He's just waiting for the right moment to get out of the marriage. Now he's happy with himself, like someone that would rather be alone than to be with someone he doesn't like.

It doesn't seem to me that he cares about you or the relationship at all. He's being selfish.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I don't know. I can see how it would look like that. My take was more he is comfortable with the status quo and doesn't want the boat rocked for something he considers to suit him just fine.

It is funny really. The dynamic was much more even in our first years together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Walking,
It does appear that maybe there is a need for validation on your side of things. Sex = he loves you, and a measure of how much.

Add in his EA and yes I can understand that you really do need to "know" that he loves you, a lot, and you need validation that he is going to stay and not have an affair, etc.

Couples night... what I meant by that was not scheduling sex, but just time where you hang out, go out on dates, go out with other couples, go for a walk, and TALK. (that seems to be one of your needs, to bond and talk).

That is what I mean by other intimacy. Being open to seeing that love can be shown without sex. It reads a bit like he is trying.

I will say that your H is much better at actually telling you what he wants. Maybe you are not "hearing" each other right now, the anxiety over the EA and fear for the future.

The fact that he had an EA kinda says that he is looking for emotional needs, not purely physical. The fact that he "takes care of himself" so often is normal. He saves the emotional release for YOU. But the truth is.. he doesn't need a deep emotional connection more than 2x a week. He isn't using you for sex. 
You want him too. He respects you too much to do it, and it's too much emotional pressure. He wants a lighter emotional connection, which can lead to sex more often. Ease into it.

I know this seems harsh, but you can't predict the future either. A hobby will occupy your time, but it does seem that he is repeadetly trying to "help" you with some inner peace. The ability to relax. To accept today and not worry about tomorrow. To love yourself FIRST and foremost. This is hard, after he had an EA. But it's possible. 

It takes time.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Not sure I agree with deejov on this one.

As has been said numerous times here, EAs oft become PAs rather quickly so I find it hard to believe that at some point the physical aspect of that EA didn't cross his mind. Had it gone P, what would he have done then if it's only more of an emotional connection he's looking for?

Sorry but I don't reacll how long ago the EA was or if the two of you ever really dealt with it. Is it possible he's still a little foggy?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Other intimacy... Now you have gotten me thinking and it is interesting. 

I was allways a "quality time" gal. He was not as big on it. It used to be a struggle for him to meet this need as hecdidn't understand it not having it himself. I am seeing here that what seems to have happened is since his EA my need for sex has come to the fore instead albeit gradually. I allways considered sex to be part of quality time rather than physical touch. Somehow the need for sex I think to me fundamentally governs my measure of how much he loves me AND finds me attractive and in my head is a direct comparison of how attractive he finds me versus the other woman.

So in my head the drop in frequency + repeated rejections = some subconscious conclusion that he does not find me as attractive any more = he preferred the other woman and I am now his "second choice."

The associated drop in my esteem has led me to consistently press him for reassurance. I do not think he is resisting reassuring me as a side effect of the EA... I believe he has not understood that the drop in esteem IS linked to his EA and has simply interpreted this as me acting needy.

Phew... Hope that makes sense...

And about the EA... He had opportunities to make it go physical but did not. She tried a handfull of times but he consistently rejected her. I won't go in to the logistics but I know this to be true. He is actually still quite cagey over whether he found her attractive, he flips back and forth. It is not something I lose sleep over, it is put to rest in the sense I don't dwell on that, but my take is that he says he did not find her attractive because he feels that a) that that knowledge would really hurt me and b) on a personal level he feels it is "less" bad if he did not find her attractive. Like on some level he can tell himself it WAS just friends.

But we have done MC, he does see what happened. He just still has trouble believing how he acted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Walk,

Are the two of you still in MC? mIs he getting any IC?

If not, I think you should consider returning because I see some things (and I think you do too) that I would GUESS are resduals from his EA.

Seems as if you view sex a a man typically does (not an insult!) and that it (for you) is indicative of his love and desire for you and is a major source of self esteem for you since his EA. I guess it's akin to hysterical bonding and you're trying to mark your territory.

You should tell him that you think your increased need for sex and your "neediness" in general all still tie back to his EA and that you need time to work on it WITH him.

His reluctance regarding telling you about the attractiveness (or lack thereof) of the OW is also a big stumbling block for you I'd guess from what you've written here. I would tend to agree that he's both sheilding you and attempting to sheild himself on this issue.

Last but not least, I think your revealation here is a true ephiany for you. Please be sure to act on it!


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I have been thinking over how to go on from here. I feel that when me and him talked the other day, I let out a lot that I had never directly articulated about my esteem after his EA. He seemed really really sad and protective of me after I told him. He was a lot different than he has been about this all before.

I still realize I do have a part to play. I know that in my head but also from stuff he has said. Deejov has pointed stuff out also. My immediate thoughts are finding another home based hobby for me which I know what I want tobdo. Something I have been wanting to do but will also give me some distraction and interest outside of me and him.

Also the schedule to go on the calendar. I will be honest : at this point I think penciling in couple time as well as sex time is going to be bombarding him with too much. Rather "engineer" couple time would be better.

I need to work on letting go a little. Allthough we both understand now where this has come from, I guess I need to trust in his feelings for me. Hard though at times. And him? If he can commit to the schedule and give me the small gestures I like that make me feel loved then I think we will be a long way towards being more settled.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Toffer

Posted at the same time!

Yes I am definitely acting on it. My theory is he will respond positively if I can implement these changes without pressing him to do stuff.

Yesterday he was super appreciative. Kept telling me how good I was to him, thanks for looking after him, thankyou for even "loving him?!" He has had some issues with his dad going back to childhood and they resurfaced a couple of days ago. He has been quite insightfull into how they continue to affect him now. Itvis clear he has not exactly adandonment issues but the thought of me being so upset as to potentially think about leaving stirs up some unresolved "he isn't good enough" thoughts. I think and so does he that he lives day to day with some emotional "distance" to protect himself.

Baby steps I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Wow. Seems like the two of you have had some great progress! 

Keep it going and move it into MC or IC for the both of you! They may help you guys uncover even more!

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you two


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Thanks! There is some good momentum going and want to keep it that way.

Earlier yesterday I was writing stuff down on our calendar (I am working on being more organized.) I finished and highlighted a few things to him (there were a couple of things recently that did not get planned properly and bugged him a lot so got stuff organized for the next month or so.)

Later he asked me if I had penciled in our "schedule." I said I hadn't yet but I thought we should go with the two days he had mentioned every week. He agreed. One of those happened to be yesterday!

Guess what? He was too tired. I anticipated this as he had had a particularly big day at work. He said "I'm tired" but stopped at that : I could see he was trying to gauge my reaction. I said I thought he would be and he suggested a raincheck til tomorrow. I said OK and carried on with what I was doing. Thought I will trust in him to follow through. So we shall see!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Walk,

Sounds good.

I would like it if something like that happened with my wife. If she falls asleep after indicating that tonight is a good night, I would understand if either she woke me up in the AM and picked up where we left off or followed through the next night!


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

He did. I was concerned as it is one of the evenings I am out doing my sports thing. I worried by the time J got back it may have been too late for him. 

But no, first thing I noticed when I got in was the smell of shower and soap and spray, that lovely man smell! So was looking promising. He initiated stuff and it was great. 

And yes Toffer I think that is OK to take a raincheck. I don't want to get pity sex because he thinks I would be too upset if I didn't.

So that was all good. I guess it is the rest of the dynamic I need to work on. Just chilling out a bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Things are OK.

I will say first I had a MAJOR meltdown on Sunday. It wasn't directly about sex but involved it.

Too much to go in to here really. The gist was around how he seems to resist any of my requests qnd dig his heels in like a little kid being contrary. That I feel that a lot of what should be minor issues evolve in to hrated drawnnout arguments because he does not like working to resolve them, he rather papers over by "making up" by breaking the conflict and comforting me but does not actually address the issue.

I was a real mess. Pretty much said I could not see why he married me, why he was here except for the kids. That I felt like part of the furniture. Told him he'd done a number in training me really well, so much so that I never asked him for stuff any more and spent most of my time trying not to be in his space or touch or annoy him.

I own my part in how I behave, I was just pretty down at the time.

He did listen. Acknowledged what I was saying. That was good. We spent the afternoon just me and him and he seemed very relaxed and allmost like he used to be years ago. Full of energy, vibrant and attentive to me. Just spending time just us two allways does something good. So that helped.

I am still working on trying to be more relaxed. My REAL problem area lies with commnicating my needs I guess. Not that in his eyes I ever *stop* doing that...

What I mean is I am.not very sure of myself. We have this twice weekly schedule. I am trying to be relaxed about stuff and trust in him to follow it. The problem is I am so hyper aware of the stuff he does not like that I have allmost conditioned myself not to initiate affection or ask for fear of being rejected.

So I am kinda stuck. I realize I cannot expect him to read my mind. But he does not understand the pain of his previous rejections. To him it really is as simple as "just ask."

The other thing is if I distance myself so as not to make him feel "smothered" by my attention, I allmost feel like I am being ignorant or even rude by not engaging with him or conversating if we are sat across from each other. I have not found a comfortable balance.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be great on any of this!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Walking,
I don't know if you could do this... but consider it for thought.

Try ONLY non-sexual affection. Hug him when you get up. Hug him when he gets home, tell him you missed him, hold his hand once in awhile, touch his back when he walks by, various small gestures of affection.

And do NOT initiate sex, ask for sex, or bring it up. Don't have a schedule. Throw it out. Put it out of your mind. Take care of yourself. Get a new toy. Love yourself, literally. 

Think about the concept that if you never had sex again, what would your life be like? You would not die. Nothing would happen to you. I'm serious. He will still love you, or he won't. But maybe it's time to find that out? Why torture yourself? It only spirals. It will only become sex =Love 2 x a week to 4x a week to everyday. 

I hate to say this, but you can re-program yourself to get your sense of self esteem from something other than sex.But you might have to stop wanting sex in order for that to happen. 

It's hard to do. Very hard. But after a few days, it will start to fade. 
Focus on ways you can show him affection. Think about how it makes you feel, if it pleases him. 

Start thinking about how your kids make you feel. Spend more time with them. They will give you a sense of self worth that NO man can. You are way more than just a wife. You a person in there. Why are you hiding her?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Some great questions Pandakiss...

First... Not sure what his intimacy is though would guess oral. I will admit to easing off on this a LOT recently. I have allways been happy to do it and it featured weekly. In a very hard to explain way I stopped doing it so much. I think because for me it IS special, difficult to articulate but there is an intensity and when I do not feel so connected I ease off with it.

The brush off... My feeling is mixed up on this. He is not very open and affectionate generally so his mood is hard to gauge with regard to approaching him. Part of the problem has obviously been I have initiated in all sorts of circumstances, and been told no, even when we have been fooling around, naked, in bed, and getting hot and heavy. Circumstances you would think were a dead cert. It has completely broken my confidence. He is unable to understand this and it makes no sense to me : he is telling me to approach him in the way I used to for sex. But doing that got me turned down. I cannot grasp what is different now that would enable me to open up like I was before. I have not been able to initiate again because I simply do not trust that he won't hurt me again.

So him looking at me and things I do and say? I have actually gotten to this point recently...

I would say he sees an emotional woman. One who loves deeply and is very sexual. Sometimes to the point of it taking over. One who is complicated and very different to him. One who says she wants things but does not allways be obvious about it and leaves the onus on him to do stuff like initiate.

I expect he would consider me to be pessimistic. Overlooks the good stuff he does when he messes up. Is hyper sensitive and can't take a joke. Lets things build up instead of saying at the time how she feels. But also likes to have relationship talks... A LOT.

Wow. I can say some of this is his interpretation. He rarely can link cause and effects though, it is like he doesn't understand that I don't just spontaneously get upset with no reason. It seems not to occur to him to address what he did to make me upset but to criticize my behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

deejov, cross posted. Will think about what you have said and reply later, thanks 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I will say the non sexual affection is part of this. He can be very big on personal space. Has pushed me away before when have gone to hug him. It is not as bad as it used to be but he often has that irritated look when I go to him to do the stuff you mentioned. He may as well draw up an affection schedule because this comes up a lot too. Like he is out of commission for affection of any kind. I have recently wondered if he gets his affection needs met by the kids as he is very affectionate with them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

walking,

So sorry you're back and with these results. Not sure what else I can add except to reiterate the IC for you at least. It may help you get your head on a little straighter

Good luck!


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Thanks Toffer. The actual schedule as we arranged it, well so far he has stuck to it AND brought it up himself each time. In terms of that so far so good. Though this is usually how it goes : the first week or two are good then it dissolves. I am trying hard to trust in him this time though. I realize I sound negative in whether it will last but that is doubt from past experience. One of the things I have been doing is stopping talking like he IS going to fail. 

And deejov... I have read and reread what you suggested. It took me a while to understand as first I thought you were saying we shouldn't have sex as part of our marriage...!

I get it now. I will be honest, apart from the schedule I do not bring up sex, ask or talk about it. I have entirely left it to him.

The non sexual affection... This is difficult. It is not really his "thing." Often I will go to hug him and it really will be me hugging him but him not reciprocating. It is him "being" hugged rather than us hugging.

Same with holding hands. If we are out I will go to hold hands. He will do for a few seconds then will gdt distracted, let go and that's it. If I try and "retrieve" his hand he mostly will do the same again or do his annoyed face and say something to brush me off. The rejection is similar to his sexual rejection.

I realized what I do now are gestures of affection that do not need a response. So I can't be rebuffed. Like a gentle hand on the waist as I walk by. Sometimes a kiss goodnight if I go to bed earlier. I do generally spend a lot of time around him "editing" my impulses and wants because he has drilled in to me what bugs him and when. It is hard. I well up recently thinking about it... When he arrives home and I want to hug and kiss him. He wants space. 

Reminds me of something I asked him for not long ago. That he would message me from work telling me he misses me or he wishes he was with me. Not had anything like that.

I really am finding this difficult this week. It is getting me down. Allthough he is trying with the schedule, I feel really disconnected from him. I acknowledge he provides by working hard. I appreciate it a lot. And he is a great father. I am just really unsure right now what else I get out of this.

Him? He had a loyal, loving wife. Where has being like that gotten me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Walking,

I can feel the pain in your words and I am so sorry for you.

I often feel it is unfair that it seems like it is usually the higher drive spouse who needs to change the most in these type of situations. It often looks like we have to commit to the LD spouses limit of what they are willing to do, not what they CAN do.

I have been told (and this could be your husband's way of thinking) that my wife was hesitant to touch me or hold my hand on the couch or when she came to bed because she thought that it would put the idea into my head that we were going to have sex. Really? Look, I'm 50 yrs old now and get up at 5:30 AM 5 days a week. As much as I'd like to say that I still had the same strength and stamina as I did 25 years ago, the truth is I am tired and I do want to just sleep most nights!

Could be the same with him. He may be afraid that your non-sexual touches aren't really non-sexual and will lead you to expect more from him than he can give (frequency wise). I think your gestures that don't need a response are an excellent approach to this issue.

Are you doing the IC yet?


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