# Committing to the 180



## Guy66 (Nov 29, 2011)

At this point, I don't have anything else to try. I'm going to give the 180 a go.

My wife of 24 years (one 11 y.o. son) has been in an EA with an old high school flame for two years now. We have fought about it several times with her saying the usual things you hear others say here.

I had no proof until a little over a year ago when I snooped in her FaceBook and read a thread of messages between W and OM's brother. She proclaimed her love for him, "soulmates" etc. I honestly think she was trying to get in good with his family now so she would be an known friend when she decided to go be with him. When I confronted her, she tried to dismiss all that as "love as a friend" "soulmate friend", etc. Yeah, right.

I didn't handle the confrontation well, I was crying and was so mad I couldn't think of what I should have said, etc. She basically brushed it off as "this is something you just need to get over because there is nothing going on". I told her that I did talk to our pastor. She was really mad about that. I told her that pastor said "She is in an emotional affair". She coldly said "Yeah, I suppose you could say that." She had absolutely NO feeling of sorrow or empathy of what I was feeling. Ice cold.

Things gradually got back to "normal" over time with her still contacting OM (too far apart for physical contact).

This June, she came home and said: "You're gonna be mad at me, I wired OM some money today. His wife did something with their money and he doesn't know what yet. He thinks she has been gambling it away. (They are split now, she was just stashing money to prepare to leave him.) If he didn't have money soon, he was going to lose his land, possibly his (semi) truck, phones, and more." I asked her how much and she quietly said "$6,000". I didn't know what to say, but she was right about me being mad. I know she didn't talk to me about it because she knew I'd be against it. By doing it first, she didn't have to go against my voiced opinion, only my known opinion. He told her he needed it just for a couple months until his dad had some money coming in and he'd pay us back then. It's almost January and nothing has been paid back yet. (surprised?)

Last night, I snooped W's phone after she went to bed. She keeps all her outgoing texts deleted. She had saved several incoming texts from him with photos (innocent stuff) and a few basic "you're a good person" kind of stuff . . . except for one . . . 

On Christmas Eve, OM sent her a text that she kept. The text said:
Thank you Baby! You're the best! :-*

I couldn't sleep after seeing that. I assumed that she had sent him a Christmas present and he opened it on Christmas eve and was thanking her for that. I didn't know, but she got me nothing for Christmas so I was getting hot about the idea she got him something but not me. I waited up all night then confronted her this morning about the text, and she was pist at first for me snooping her phone. Then she was like "yeah? so what?" she said "He lost all his photos off his phone and I sent back the ones he had sent to me. He was thanking me for that." I said "Ok, but what about the calling you 'Baby' and kissy face thing? Isn't that a little inappropriate for him to be calling a married woman 'Baby'?" She said "no, not at all".

I said "you know, it sucks to think that while we were sitting here as a family opening gifts, you were just a few feet away from me sending lovey-dovey kissy face text messages to your boyfriend".

She said "No, what sucks is that I have to live like a prisoner in my own house with you watching every move I make!"

I said "Really? You're the one in the affair, that's how it works."

She went off in a huff, got ready for work and left. She has sent a couple texts today like nothing's wrong, but I didn't respond. I'm still too mad.

I just can't understand how she thinks she can keep up the "just friends" game with everything I've seen and know.

We are too far apart that she couldn't be with him physically without me knowing. I honestly was thinking (hoping) that over time, this would run its course and fade away, but after two years, it hasn't gotten any better.

I think it's time I start the 180 best I can. It scares me when I think about how much I "need" her for. I suddenly see that I need to work on my own independence so I can be strong for that day she either decides he is where she wants to be, or if I force her to choose.

Starting now, the 180 is on.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

Just remember the 180 isn't to win her back it's to make you stronger and more often then not, help you move on without her.

If you're doing it only to win her back in your life then you're wasting your time, because you'll only get more angry and resentful if she doesn't come around.


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## Guy66 (Nov 29, 2011)

cheatinghubby said:


> Just remember the 180 isn't to win her back it's to make you stronger and more often then not, help you move on without her.
> 
> If you're doing it only to win her back in your life then you're wasting your time, because you'll only get more angry and resentful if she doesn't come around.


Yes, I understand that due to all the talk about it here. Of course, I hope that she will wake up and realize what she is doing, but I understand this is for my own strength, and she'll still do what she's going to do.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Get a lawyer to send him a note asking for payment on the monies she wired him , mentioning it was a loan and if he decline he will be taken to court. Move ALL your monies into a secure account.

Your wife is in a full on EA , is unrepentant and does not give a hoot about you. Have you exposed her affair to your family if not do so. .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Read the newbie thread ....

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Guy66 said:


> This June, she came home and said: "You're gonna be mad at me, I wired OM some money today. His wife did something with their money and he doesn't know what yet. He thinks she has been gambling it away. (They are split now, she was just stashing money to prepare to leave him.) If he didn't have money soon, he was going to lose his land, possibly his (semi) truck, phones, and more." *I asked her how much and she quietly said "$6,000". *I didn't know what to say, but she was right about me being mad. I know she didn't talk to me about it because she knew I'd be against it. By doing it first, she didn't have to go against my voiced opinion, only my known opinion. He told her he needed it just for a couple months until his dad had some money coming in and he'd pay us back then. It's almost January and nothing has been paid back yet. (surprised?)


If you haven't done so already, you should do these things immediately...

No joint bank accounts. No joint credit cards. No joint debts or loans, etc.

Protect/secure your assets, monies, finances, etc.

Keep a log of all the money she spent on her affair and on the other man (OM).

Revisit your will and change it if you have to. You should see a competent lawyer for this change of the will so that there are no unintended results/loopholes.


Read up also on Just Let Them Go.


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## Guy66 (Nov 29, 2011)

Eli-Zor said:


> Get a lawyer to send him a note asking for payment on the monies she wired him , mentioning it was a loan and if he decline he will be taken to court. Move ALL your monies into a secure account.
> 
> Your wife is in a full on EA , is unrepentant and does not give a hoot about you. Have you exposed her affair to your family if not do so. .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, only a couple of my closest friends know. I haven't gone to family yet. She has told a few of her friends how wonderful he is. One of her friends came to me and said "You realize this guy is not 'just a friend', right? I don't want to see you be made a schmuck about this."

Technically it was "her" money. She got some inheritance from her mom's estate that was put into our joint account. The money came from that inheritance so I'm sure that is why she feels justified that it was "her" money and she could do as she pleases.

I did talk to a lawyer about a year ago to ask about how to best protect myself now, what kind of records to keep, etc. The lawyer told me that if it went to court and she could show the inheritance, the court would see that as "hers" even though it is in a joint account now.

I really don't think she plans on leaving for two reasons. She knows it would be stupid to drag our son off with her to chase after this guy, and she doesn't think I can take proper care of him. I do horrible things like fold towels the "wrong" way and stuff like that. I know I'm perfectly capable. I can do what I have to do.

The other reason is I don't think she's convinced that she can live with him. This gal that is divorcing him now is his 3rd wife. I think my wife does have enough sense to question if she should try to be his 4th. I think she just wants to have her family, and her "friend" both.

I KNOW they would not last long if they got together (I knew him in high school too). They are both hotheads. Once outside of the fantasy and into the reality of daily living, they would be like fire and gasoline together . . . but that's not my problem.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

You have a lot of reasons for inactivity , send the lawyers note to him , if she argues say it is to protect her . Expose to her family and friends and call it for what it is , an affair . You have no marriage today and this will continue to be the case of you do not take action .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

You said you knew him in high school , if you have access to his friends expose to them as well . You will never have a chance to recover the marriage if he remains in the picture . 

Read the 180 carefully , it alone will not save your marriage . There are a series of steps to take to make the affair extremely uncomfortable .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change. She is humiliating you right under your nose because she knows that there are no consequences to her actions. If the roles were reversed do you think she would be so accepting as you have been. Her actions indicate that she has very little respect for you whatsoever. If you do not respect yourself then who will? Time to revisit the lawyer again.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

If she put the money into a joint account you can argue (or your lawyer can) that she meant for the money to be for the both of you.

That's why if you really want to protect yourself regarding money received from an inheritance should always be put in an account only in your name. you can still share it with your spouse but only you have access to it. Oh well, her mistake 

As to protecting your assets and money, always say you're protecting yourself assets, never, ever say the word HIDING. That will come back and bite you big time. Hide nothing, let everything be an open book, but protect what you have by limiting her access to those assets/cash. When it comes time to split assets, there is a clean trail you can give to her attorney and give them zero ammunition to bend you over and stick it to you.

And posters, when giving advice about assets and cash, STOP USING THE WORD HIDE!!!! YOU DO NOT WANT TO HIDE ANYTHING! Protect, protect, protect, protect!

Oh lookey what we have here, $10k in a bank account you didn't disclose, wanna see the lawyer and judge throw the book at you at that point.


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## Guy66 (Nov 29, 2011)

I did see enough text messages from him to her to know what is going on. I assume that he still lost everything in the split because he went from a self employed trucker to taking a job in a state on the other side of us now.

In one text I saw that was dated shortly after she gave him the money, he said "I wish now that we wouldn't have done the loan. I WILL get you paid back asap".

I do believe he PLANS on paying it back, but with my wife in her fog, I don't think she cares as long as she's got his heart.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

cheatinghubby said:


> And posters, when giving advice about assets and cash, STOP USING THE WORD HIDE!!!! YOU DO NOT WANT TO HIDE ANYTHING! Protect, protect, protect, protect!
> 
> Oh lookey what we have here, $10k in a bank account you didn't disclose, wanna see the lawyer and judge throw the book at you at that point.



Yes, you're right.


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## Guy66 (Nov 29, 2011)

Eli-Zor said:


> You said you knew him in high school , if you have access to his friends expose to them as well . You will never have a chance to recover the marriage if he remains in the picture .
> 
> Read the 180 carefully , it alone will not save your marriage . There are a series of steps to take to make the affair extremely uncomfortable .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No friends . . . his family took off our senior year in high school. It was only a few months from graduation and he was just gone. My wife commented several times throughout our marriage that she wondered what happened to him and that she never even got to say goodbye. No one around here knew where they went. He finally emerged in my wife's email box through a classmates.com account.

Thanks for all the advice, I want to make sure I do this right.

It's also difficult as my wife works in the bank where most of our money is at. The only way I could do anything would be to go to another branch in another town and make changes there all at once. She keeps a close eye on our accounts throughout the day at work. 

A good deal of the inherited funds are in stocks and investments that were just titled over to my wife and myself. Those that that were just given new ownership would be easy to prove that they were "her" inheritance. The CDs and Savings accounts would be more mixed up and harder to say what was what.

One of the things I love about my wife is that she is usually a level headed, fair person . . . until she's crossed or angered. I honestly believe that if she were to decide to leave today, she would work with me and make a fair split. If I tried to "pull" something and she got whiff of it before it was completed, she would then come out with a vengence ready to fight.

Sounds "whipped" I know, but I know how she operates and how to deal with her to get the desired outcome.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

If you know you can work out a friendly resolution go with that 1st. But talk to a lawyer ahead of time just in case. I'm pretty sure she's talked to more than one already to make sure her money is safe and stays her money.

Just get some quick advice from the lawyer just in case she tries something. Because once the lawyers get involved, any chance of a quick and friendly resolution goes out the door most of the time.


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## Guy66 (Nov 29, 2011)

cheatinghubby said:


> Just get some quick advice from the lawyer just in case she tries something. Because once the lawyers get involved, any chance of a quick and friendly resolution goes out the door most of the time.


I will at least do this. I do know of one family lawyer here in town who is actually a pretty straight shooter. He is known to first work at getting the couple to resolve the marriage issues and stay together. Then if that fails, he presses towards friendly, fair settlement. Then if that fails, he's not afraid to well represent his client.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

"Sounds "whipped" I know, but I know how she operates and how to deal with her to get the desired outcome." 

Evidently not, this has been going on for two years.

Start reading here.......

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html

Get the book "His Needs Her Needs"

Go here........No More Mr. Nice Guy


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Doesn't sound hopeless yet, good luck. You should also look into IC. I don't think she realizes how bad this is because of the affair fog. Seeing that you are going to counseling may cause her to realize(along with the 180) that the sh!t is hitting the fan.


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## Guy66 (Nov 29, 2011)

chapparal said:


> Evidently not, this has been going on for two years.
> 
> Get the book "His Needs Her Needs"
> 
> [/url]


Yeah, but what I mean is if I play hard ball with her and force her to choose and she decides to stay, I KNOW she will resent me and resent me "taking her friend away from her" for the rest of our lives.

If I can steer her into, or waiting out the time for her to finally realize she is screwing up on her own, these couple years of crap will be well worth the ease of the lack of resentment later.

I just picked up "His Needs Her Needs" two days ago for my Kindle. I just got a good start on it night before last. I WISH she would be willing to read it too, but she still wants NOTHING to do with any material or counseling that might tell her to stop the affair.

I'm sure individual counseling would be good for me too.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Guy66 said:


> Yeah, but what I mean is if I play hard ball with her and force her to choose and she decides to stay, I KNOW she will resent me and resent me "taking her friend away from her" for the rest of our lives.
> 
> If I can steer her into, or waiting out the time for her to finally realize she is screwing up on her own, these couple years of crap will be well worth the ease of the lack of resentment later.
> 
> ...


I understnd what you are saying but there are no consequences for her. So far she has thrown you/family under the bus and thrown six grand down a rathole. People are talking to you about her having an affair. Does she know this, that her rep is now that of a cheater?


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## Guy66 (Nov 29, 2011)

chapparal said:


> I understnd what you are saying but there are no consequences for her. So far she has thrown you/family under the bus and thrown six grand down a rathole. People are talking to you about her having an affair. Does she know this, that her rep is now that of a cheater?


I see what you mean about the consequences. I have no desire to hurt her or "teach her a lesson" if she will just wake up and realize what a fool she is being.

Maybe I'm just being falsely hopeful and it will take strong consequences to wake her up.

My pastor said "You know you'll never get that money back, right?" I told him that if the money would make her realize that he's not really prince charming, it would be worth the loss to get over this. Right now though, I don't think he could do anything to tarnish her fantasy about him.

I honestly believe she just doesn't grasp that an emotional affair is not ok. She said to me once "Don't worry, we're not going to go and do something stupid" which I took to mean getting together to take it physical. I think she believes that as long as it's not physical, no one is getting hurt. She thinks my hurt is due only to my insecurities and is my problem to get over because as long as they are not physical, there is no problem.

My wife does not know that her friend came to me. I promised the friend that I would not put her in the middle of us and cause issues between them. The friend just wanted me to know that she could tell my wife does have strong feelings (more than 'just friends') for the guy. My wife even admitted to me herself that she had strong feelings for him but yet somehow still tried to spin it as just REALLY good friends. The friend just didn't want me to be whistling along thinking everything was innocent between them.

My wife is also not one to really care what other people think of her, especially if she knows (thinks) she's in the right. She is a very strong willed personality about that kind of stuff.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Guy66 said:


> Yeah, but what I mean is if I play hard ball with her and force her to choose and she decides to stay, I KNOW she will resent me and resent me "taking her friend away from her" for the rest of our lives.


Wrong.

After a woman exits the affair fog she will do one of two things:

Thank you for stepping up.

Blame you for not stepping up.

You need to decide right now which it will be.

If you been at the forum long enough to understand the 180, then you know rational and logical behavior have nothing to do with how a woman behaves in an affair.




> If I can steer her into, or waiting out the time for her to finally realize she is screwing up on her own, these couple years of crap will be well worth the ease of the lack of resentment later.


Logic and rational behavior, lose these expectations.

Play hardball. Starting today, for your own good mainly, but your wife's good as well.



> I just picked up "His Needs Her Needs" two days ago for my Kindle. I just got a good start on it night before last. I WISH she would be willing to read it too, but she still wants NOTHING to do with any material or counseling that might tell her to stop the affair.
> 
> I'm sure individual counseling would be good for me too.


Stop waiting for your wife.

I repeat, stop waiting for your wife.

The decisions now are yours, not hers. She's made her decision already.

Drop the hammer on her bigtime. Get a lawyer asap, and begin moving toward separation. 

Do NOT wait for her to continue to plan her escape at your expense, emotionally or financially.

And another thing, sad to say, if the OM is a long distance truck driver, do not assume some "distance" is preventing a full blown PA.

My opinion, you are wasting time you simply do not have to waste.

For your own health, sanity, and happiness, drop the hammer 100 percent. Full exposure, lawyer up, and make it clear you are moving on, soberly but deliberately, without your wife. This is the cure for the affair "fog".

I wish you well.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

BigBadWolf said:


> Wrong.
> 
> After a woman exits the affair fog she will do one of two things:
> 
> ...


Agree
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Looks like you are scared of your wife and her wrath. The "getting things done around her" attitude is bullsh!t. It will come back to bite you later. Looks like she can argue her way out even if you caught her in bed with OM with your current attitude. Takes your balls back wherever she hid them. Don't start it out of the blue. Tell her you are prepared to divorce if this doesn't stop and start the 180. Contact an attorney and let her know. Discuss about the separation of assets. Keep in touch with the friend for insider information.


Edit: Are you sure she never traveled out of town to meet him?


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

You may be interested in the following:



marduk said:


> I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.
> 
> A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.
> 
> ...


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

The thing is,you just don't get what is going on. Many of the people that are giving you advise have seen this over and over and over on this forum. Your wife is following the cheaters script. We all know how this is going to turn out depending on what you do/don't do. You are also following the betrayed spouse script. 

Whether your marriage can be saved we can't tell. What we can tell is you have your head in the sand and your situation has disaster written ALL over it. The reason she is picking him over you is that she sees him as more of a man than you and at this point you are still not manning up. You're hiding behind your fear of losing her and she's using this against you.

There is no way your plan is going to work out.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

Guy66 said:


> I see what you mean about the consequences. I have no desire to hurt her or "teach her a lesson" if she will just wake up and realize what a fool she is being.
> 
> Maybe I'm just being falsely hopeful and it will take strong consequences to wake her up.


Consequences are the result of the choices we make. She is choosing to be unfaithful. It's not "teaching her a lesson" for you to choose not to accept her choice, it's a fairly fundamental expectation that in marriage, spouses will be faithful.

Let me ask you this: do you allow your son to do whatever he wants without consequence, just so that he won't "not like you" either? Or do you teach him that it's not acceptable to you to act improperly? Are you being hurtful or vengeful to your son when there are consequences for his behaviors? 

Granted, your wife is not your child, but the theory is the same. The rule/boundary is communicated (cheating is not okay), if it's crossed (whether it's an affair by your wife or a board game for your son), there are consequences (separation, end of game, etc.). 

Consequences are simply a natural progression, not revenge.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

This one sounds just like HiT doesn't he?

I hope I'm wrong (no offense to HiT but he still hasn't filed!!)


YES do the 180

YOU need it, do not look for it to be a tool to get her back or else you will likely end up in a back and forth mess of trying to be strong and caving in and melting down and begging. Just do it for you. If it just so happens that she wakes up from the fog and starts doing what you need to recover then bully for you but don't expect it. 


In the meantime start taking steps to stop the affair

expose expose expose, anybody and everybody who can be of a help to you

make it very clear to her that while she is welcome to do as she pleases that does not mean you have to be there or support her while she continues to disrepect the marriage and you.

You need a crash course in standing your ground here. The plain truth is that you have already lost her. You have nothing to lose here as any weakness from your end will only result in her taking advantage of having the security of marriage from you while engaging in schmoopsie time with her "true love". Empower yourself. You have the power and you don't even know it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

$6,000??? HOLY CRAP! Her head would ROLL in this house! I can't even IMAGINE.

She's cheating on you and doesn't even care how you feel.

Screw the 180. I say file for divorce.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

that_girl said:


> $6,000??? HOLY CRAP! Her head would ROLL in this house! I can't even IMAGINE.
> 
> She's cheating on you and doesn't even care how you feel.
> 
> Screw the 180. I say file for divorce.


I agree wholeheartedly, but I can just tell he won't even consider that, thus at least a 180 will help him get himself out of his own fog and into a place where he can finally pull the trigger


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## Guy66 (Nov 29, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the strong words. I'm sure that is what I need to hear and do.

Sheesh, I'm not arguing with you guys, this is just a really big step. I'm not one to just jump into something and hope I'm doing it right. I'm a planner who likes to have the ducks lined up before I get things rolling.

The only thing I disagree with is that I don't think I've already lost her, but yes, I could be wrong. I think she's more scared of going to him and hoping it will work out than I am of standing my ground. She does know me well enough that if she does go to him and it doesn't work out, she will not be coming back to me.

Someone asked about the physical . . . yes, I know she has not been with him. She tried to set up a dinner meet once early on with him, his (then) wife and us, while we were on vacation. That fell through. She has not been gone anywhere long enough alone to be with him since this started.

This is a lot to process in the few hours we've been posting.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

ask yourself-


if you spent 2 years in an EA with someone, refused to go no contact, texted your OW while the kids are opening gifts on xmas, exhange schmoospie, I luv u's and called her a pet name like babe and sent $6K to help her in her divorce and to pay her bills....

what would your wife do?


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

BigBadWolf said:


> Wrong.
> 
> After a woman exits the affair fog she will do one of two things:
> 
> ...


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

BigBadWolf said:


> Wrong.
> 
> After a woman exits the affair fog she will do one of two things:
> 
> ...



Exactly!!!!! She seems to have all the control, and is basically going to continue this affair until you put your foot down. Don't be a doormat for god's sake.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Guy66 said:


> Thanks everyone for the strong words. I'm sure that is what I need to hear and do.
> 
> Sheesh, I'm not arguing with you guys, this is just a really big step. I'm not one to just jump into something and hope I'm doing it right. I'm a planner who likes to have the ducks lined up before I get things rolling.


*Analysis paralysis*: over-analyzing (or over-thinking) a situation, so that a decision or action is never taken, in effect paralyzing the outcome. A decision can be treated as over-complicated, with too many detailed options, so that a choice is never made, rather than try something and change if a major problem arises. A person might be seeking the optimal or "perfect" solution upfront, and fear making any decision which could lead to erroneous results, when on the way to a better solution.




> The only thing I disagree with is that I don't think I've already lost her, but yes, I could be wrong. I think she's more scared of going to him and hoping it will work out than I am of standing my ground. She does know me well enough that if she does go to him and it doesn't work out, she will not be coming back to me.
> 
> Someone asked about the physical . . . yes, I know she has not been with him. She tried to set up a dinner meet once early on with him, his (then) wife and us, while we were on vacation. That fell through. She has not been gone anywhere long enough alone to be with him since this started.
> 
> This is a lot to process in the few hours we've been posting.


If a man wins a woman's heart, he's won her body as well. And from my POV that man ain't you.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Guy66 said:


> Thanks everyone for the strong words. I'm sure that is what I need to hear and do.
> 
> Sheesh, I'm not arguing with you guys, this is just a really big step. I'm not one to just jump into something and hope I'm doing it right. I'm a planner who likes to have the ducks lined up before I get things rolling.


Understood.

The strong words, often they are needed to wake up the BS from their own fog, so I hope you understand the spirit much of this blunt speaking is coming from.




> The only thing I disagree with is that I don't think I've already lost her, but yes, I could be wrong.


Wrap your mind around this, whether you have lost her or not, your course of action is identical.

The 180, dropping the hammer, smashing the affair, and/or moving toward separation and/or divorce.

Your woman, you will not win her back or fix your marriage until she is out of the fog.

She will not be out of the fog until the affair is smashed. 

The affair will not be smashed until you show her in action (not words) that you are not a man who is going to share his woman with another man.

You do this, with the 180, and moving to separation up to and including divorce, if she doesn't drop the affair man.

Once she is out of the fog, and the affair, then and ONLY THEN will there be a possibility of reconciliation.




> I think she's more scared of going to him and hoping it will work out than I am of standing my ground. She does know me well enough that if she does go to him and it doesn't work out, she will not be coming back to me.


Excellent.

Now work on yourself, to not only to NOT be afraid of losing her, but perfectly and calmly expecting to (for in a way, you already have). 

And only taking her back and reconciling if and only if YOU are satisfied with everything she does to express remorse and contrition for her decision to engage in a destructive affair.

In other words, the choice is yours, not hers. 

That's real strength and power when you come to realize this.



> Someone asked about the physical . . . yes, I know she has not been with him. She tried to set up a dinner meet once early on with him, his (then) wife and us, while we were on vacation. That fell through. She has not been gone anywhere long enough alone to be with him since this started.


While I hope you are right, it is still important to prepare yourself for the possibility of a PA, and regardless to smash the affair before it inevitably happens.




> This is a lot to process in the few hours we've been posting.


Remember, your health and happiness, and that of your son, are most important right now. 

Do not lose sight of this during all this turmoil.


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## Yardman (Sep 10, 2011)

This guy is a trucker. Is it possible he was making a special delivery in your neck of the woods?


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey 66---don't you think its time you took your head out of the sand---AND BECAME A MAN.

Your wife has been cheating on you for TWO YEARS----and you do nothing but throw out these phony lame excuses.

Everyone but you knows what is going on---your pastor knows, friends know, and you come up with this crap about getting your ducks in a row

Your ducks went south, when your wife gave the guy six grand of your marital assets.

When your wife put that money in the joint account it became part of the marital assets----that's the law---check your state family codes.

You keep throwing out excuse after excuse FOR TWO YEARS OF DOING NOTHING BUT GETTING CHEATED ON BY YOUR WIFE

Are you scared to grow up and be a man.---by the way, who actually does wear the pants in your family---and don't get on here and rant and rave, about how mean I am---I am just laying out YOUR FACT PATTERN!!!!!!!


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## vickyyy (Oct 28, 2011)

You are totally behaving like doormat and lack self esteem.

She is disrespecting you and having an affair in front of you and you are still staying with her and hoping she will love you one day.

You really really need to MAN UP.

EXPOSE the affair to her family and OM wife.Please read "No More Mr.Nice Guy" book.


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## vickyyy (Oct 28, 2011)

jnj express said:


> Hey 66---don't you think its time you took your head out of the sand---AND *BECAME A MAN.*
> 
> Your wife has been cheating on you for TWO YEARS----and you do nothing but throw out these phony lame excuses.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

One thing you need to do is google Emotional Affair. Most people have never even heard of them. They are generally believed to be worse than a physical affair that is just for sex because it means they are in love with the other person. Your wife doesn't even believe she is having an affair.

The only thing that has saved you so far is distance and I would not bet any money on that. Emotional affairs turn physical sooner or later unless they get busted.

You need to talk to the other mans wife and find out from her (not your wife) why they got divorced.

What kind of phone does your wife have? You need to see what she is texting. People here can tell you how to get deleted texts from most phones.

Put a keylogger on her computer to see what she is emailing.

Put a VAR, they're cheap, in her car. Cheaters like to call from their car where theere is prvacy.

You need to squash this evil bug for your sons sake.

Be strong and good luck.


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## Guy66 (Nov 29, 2011)

I know that I'm insecure. This is not news to me. You all can keep pounding on that if you want, but I'm aware of who I am.

I'm getting there, it just takes me a little time . . . it hasn't even been 24 hours since I started this thread.

This morning I was thinking about now that he is single again, he eventually will make her decide if she is going to leave me for him, or else he will want to move on and pursue other women.

Yes, I was hoping that she would wake up on her own without me having to force her to make that decision myself. That doesn't seem to be happening.

I now fully believe that if I don't force it, he eventually will. There is no reason for me to wait around for him to push her into a decision. I just as well push that now myself so we can get on with rebuilding what we have or starting over separately.

I will see if I can get in to see the lawyer I want to talk to today.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Good luck and praying for you Guy. Hope this all falls the right way for you. I think she will see the light but then, I'm an optimist.


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

Guy66 said:


> I know that I'm insecure. This is not news to me. You all can keep pounding on that if you want, but I'm aware of who I am.


The point is THIS is the real problem, not the OM, the WW or the A. When you get your self confidence back you want even care anymore. Fixing your insecurity should be your number 1 goal because once you do that then the tables will turn in your favor.


> This morning I was thinking about now that he is single again, he eventually will make her decide if she is going to leave me for him, or else he will want to move on and pursue other women.


Don't worry about the OM, what happens, happens and should not effect your game plan.



> Yes, I was hoping that she would wake up on her own without me having to force her to make that decision myself. That doesn't seem to be happening.


It NEVER happens that way, NEVER. Waiting on then ends up just enabling the affair because you allow them to take risks as you are the safety net if thing don't work out with the OM. You are her emotional crutch and you fill in the voids the OM leaves so in her eyes the OM looks perfect.



> I now fully believe that if I don't force it, he eventually will. There is no reason for me to wait around for him to push her into a decision. I just as well push that now myself so we can get on with rebuilding what we have or starting over separately.


If she was going to choose you over him she would have done it already. The only reason the WS waffles is because they hate hurting the BS's feelings, they are afraid of what the BS might do if they are honest with them.

You need to move forward as if she has already chose him over you and you are getting a D. The chance for an R will come a couple of months or so down the road but NOT today. She needs to get out of her fog first and that doesn't happen overnight with you holding her hand.

Moving forward shows strength and that will make you more attractive to her. The more independent you become, the more desirable you become. True story.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

By filing for divorce, you will be showing your wife that you are NOT afraid of facing life without her. She may not panic and beg you to give her another chance, but at the very least she will respect you for growing a pair. But more importantly, you will have regained your self-respect.


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## Guy66 (Nov 29, 2011)

I met with the lawyer today. I'm really glad I did.

We started out with the technical/legal side of my questions. I felt he knew what he was talking about and gave good, informed answers.

Then, he went into counseling mode. I know a little about this lawyer, but I didn't know that he went through nearly the exact same thing with his wife about 15 years ago. He sees people in these situations every day in his practice. He is a Christian of strong faith (as am I). I respect his opinion.

He explained very clearly that his story is only his story and that he wasn't telling me what to do. What he described was basically the 180.

He shared with me how counseling helped him learn that he couldn't control his wife, he was not responsible for her actions, and that only he was responsible for his own happiness . . . regardless of his wife's actions. That makes sense to me.

Yes, I do have insecurities, but I don't think I'm quite as bad off as you all think. Who wouldn't be insecure about their spouse being emotionally connected to their "lost love"?

You're sure that I've lost her already, and I understand you may be 100% right, but I'm "growing a pair" to say that I'm not giving up on her just yet. My wife is one of the smartest people I know, and one of the things I love about her. I still have a glimmer of hope that she might come to her senses. Percentages say she won't, and she very well may not. I think I will know when it's time for me to give up on her.

I hate what she's doing, how she's acting, and how she's hurting me, but I do still love the woman she was before walking into this fog. Outside of the fog she's in with this other guy, she's a good woman. Yes, she's treating me badly and being selfish. I'm not ok with that, but this is not the woman I was married to for 22 years before she lost her head. I still hope her insanity is only temporary.

I signed up for life. To me, and in my Christian faith, that means as long as I can, I still choose to remain her husband. If she wants to divorce, then she is taking that choice away from me. Then so be it. I'm not quite to the end of my rope yet . . . getting close . . . but I still have another knot to go and I can hold on a little longer. When I get to that end, then I can say I held on as long as I could.

I'm *not* afraid of being without her, I'm actually quite a loner by nature.

My first choice of an outcome would be to still have her, with her out of this stupid fog. If I push for divorce and her clouded thinking makes her accept the divorce, then my first choice of an outcome is no longer an option. If she could come out of that fog fairly soon, then there is still a chance. 

I still have time left. I have no where to go. I have no other woman I'm interested in. As I've seriously thought and considered this over the last two days, I really don't think I'm "afraid" of divorce, it's just not what I want. 

I know you most of you think I'm a fool for feeling this way, but so what, you think I'm a fool. If we end up divorced, then so be it, we end up divorced. At least I will be able to go through the rest of my life not wondering "What if I had waited just a little longer?".

So, I'm not going to "bring the hammer" just yet. I may reach the end of the rope and change my mind tomorrow. I don't know. Call me "weak" and 50 other names if you want, but I'm just not quite ready to give up on her yet. I believe that this will be like putting down an old dog . . . I'll know when it's time and I will be at peace with the decision. I'm not at peace with that decision yet.

I thank you all for your advice and I am still taking it to heart and considering it. I'm just not at peace with the divorce route yet. 

So, for now, *my choice* is to work the 180, start some counseling for myself, and see where that leads. There will still be plenty of time to end our marriage as/after I work on me.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

It is good that you spoke to your lawyer, and got some good advice.

Taking action, is 10000 times better than being passive.

Understood about your faith, and I will not argue only to say this, starting "divorce proceedings" does not mean divorce. Far far from it. 

It is a process, and often merely starting this process, that tends to clear the "fog" quickly, communicating to your wife how serious you do take your vows.

But more importantly, that you expect your wife to honor hers.

That is where, I say this only in the best spirit, that I often see the more religious posters fall into the trap, that in the good intention to honor their own vows and their own faith, they do not make enough negative consequences for their wayward wife to recognize what they are about to lose.

Leading by example is a noble thing, but understand, logic, rational behavior, moral, ethical behavior, all these, your wife is not driven by NONE of these while in the fog.

Imagine a person drunk, and high on drugs, etc. Now imagine this person is dangerously wandering in traffic.

And you, you decide to set an example by walking on the sidewalk and waiting for this person to have the good sense to join you.

You would not expect a good outcome of course, because the person drunk and high and wandering in traffic has IMPAIRED JUDGMENT. 

That is your situation right now, your wife, as smart and brilliant as you believe she is, is just as drunk and high in the affair fog, and that is why aggressively smashing the affair is the advice you have been getting, and will continue to get.

Recognize the situation for what it is!

Smash the affair!

PLay hardball!


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you thought that maybe the OMW left because of his relationship with your wife?


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## Guy66 (Nov 29, 2011)

Thanks BigBadWolf, I get what you're saying. I really do. 

It was made clear in the advice here that I should be prepared and know that filing for divorce could very well mean divorce. And I believe this. Yes, I know that I can stop the process I start, but I also know my wife.

I'm not sure how much she really believes she is doing nothing wrong like she says, but I can see her taking my filing as an act of war. When she goes into battle, she often times forgets what the battle is about and just focuses on winning the war. While in battle, she is not one to stop and consider if she's "right" or even what the war is over. At that point, it becomes about winning the war.

As I said, my first choice is to save the marriage. Yes, I can see that filing could very well do that. But knowing my wife, I can easily see it blowing up and suddenly to her, this having nothing to do with her affair, but everything to do with me filing for divorce and her preparing for a battle to win. I've seen this happen with her many times. I don't feel I'm ready to take that risk *just yet*.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Guy66 said:


> I'm not sure how much she really believes she is doing nothing wrong like she says, but I can see her taking my filing as an act of war. *When she goes into battle, she often times forgets what the battle is about and just focuses on winning the war. While in battle, she is not one to stop and consider if she's "right" or even what the war is over.* At that point, it becomes about winning the war.



This character trait of hers will probably continue to sustain her in her affair.

From your writeup of her recent comments and actions, it looks like she already consider this "war".


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## gonefishin (Oct 7, 2011)

This story makes my blood boil. Make sure the 6k loan she made to the OM is well documented. She can take ownersh
ip of this stupid loan she made in the divorce settlement.
I realize we marry for better or worse but affairs and handing over money to the OM or OW is were I draw the line.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Guy66 (Nov 29, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> Have you thought that maybe the OMW left because of his relationship with your wife?


Yes, I have considered that.

Early when this started and they were trying to get all of us to meet for dinner while we were on vacation, I asked my wife if his wife knows how much they talk and how close they are. She said "Oh yeah, she knows and she has no problem with us at all. She knows we're just friends."

I don't know if that was true, or if it was my wife trying to tell me "No, she doesn't have an issue, so neither should you." That was just when this was getting started good, she really may not have had a problem with it at that time.

But yes, I've wondered that very thing. If my wife knows that was the case, she would never admit it to me.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

You're in such fear of your wife's reactions that it reeks across the web and out of my monitor.

The reality is that you really won't know how your wife will react until she is served. She may indeed react vindictive or she may panic and beg you not to leave her. You really won't know until you cross that bridge.

Lastly, have you stopped to think that if she continues with her EA and it turns into a PA that she may be the one who files for divorce? After all, women are responsible for 2/3 of the divorce filings. Something for you to consider.


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## Guy66 (Nov 29, 2011)

gonefishin said:


> This story makes my blood boil. Make sure the 6k loan she made to the OM is well documented. She can take ownersh
> ip of this stupid loan she made in the divorce settlement.
> I realize we marry for better or worse but affairs and handing over money to the OM or OW is were I draw the line.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was/am not ok with it either.

I will add that after my wife got her inheritance, she has helped another (girl) friend out and offered to help other mutual friends of ours who refused to accept it. I'm not excusing her in any way, but I think part of it is that she likes to be the "hero" now that she can afford to. Being that in this case she got to be the OM's hero was just icing on the cake for her.


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## Guy66 (Nov 29, 2011)

morituri said:


> Lastly, have you stopped to think that if she continues with her EA and it turns into a PA that she may be the one who files for divorce?


Yes, I've thought about that. In the end, does it matter? If we end up divorced, we're divorced just the same no matter who brought first blood. 

*At this point*, I feel that if she divorces me, I will will forever see her as the fool that broke up our family and left me for that loser. If I divorce her, I will always wonder if I should have done more, something different, or tried harder to save the marriage first.

And, I reserve the right to change that thought position at any time in the future. This is how I feel today. My feelings change from day to day . . . even hour to hour.

Who knows, getting physical, or any other event could quickly be the last straw to make me not even want to save this marriage any more. At that point, I won't question myself or the process any longer. I will file with the full intent of ending it. Hopefully by then, the 180 and counseling will have helped me prepare to do what needs to be done.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Wow. You take a lot of crap. None of this was in your vows. She already broke the marriage, imo.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

find the omw and talk to her if you can. She might be able to fill you in on a lot details.


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## calif_hope (Feb 25, 2011)

I don't get you, you say you love your wife and you don't want to give up on her.........yet you are not willing to fight for her or your marriage. I don't think anyone here is saying that you should go straight to divorce, what they are saying is you could use the "the reality" of divorce to jar your wife out of here fog.

Look (this is easy) sit your wife down and ask her not to say anything until your finished. Tell her you are not happy, through actions and words she us hurting you, that you cannot tolerate 3 people being in your marriage for very much longer, that you are in pain and feel disrespected by here.... tell her you love her, want to grow old with her but that you are willing to go on with your life without her to be happy again. Tell het if she wants this man to tell you it's over and for her to leave - rather divorce than live with a wife in an emotional affair - part of her heart with the OM. 

Make it clear to her that you consider the OM toxic and it has already damaged your marriage, relationship, and trust and you refuse to sit back and live in this state OD disrespect and pain.

Let her know you seen a divorce lawyer so that you learn about the process, your rights, community property and custody.

Let her know the to continue in your marriage you want exposure to close friends and family (4 support), MC and maybe IC and no contact the OM out if your lives.

Regarding the debt, you can have a friend/family member deal with the repayment plan, some banks / credit unions will act as 3rd party and some will even buy the debt 
....or the debt could be forgiven - basic fact that the debt does not have to tie the OM to your WW.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Wow. You take a lot of crap. None of this was in your vows.


lol.

Guy, she's walking all over you dude. You'll learn sooner or later though, some people like to drag out their humiliation.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Has your wife noticed the 180?


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## Guy66 (Nov 29, 2011)

chapparal said:


> Has your wife noticed the 180?


I don't think she's noticed anything yet, it's only been a couple days. Right now I think she just thinks I'm just still mad about the last round we had over the "Baby-smoochy" text message.

We are packing up and putting the Christmas stuff away today. It's all been pretty normal so far. I'm not sure she will notice much of a change until she starts to realize that I'm really not paying any attention to what she's doing (and with whom).

My wife won't really talk to me about this. She gets mad, just stares at me, usually says something about me over reacting, then stomps off. I told my lawyer that "she just doesn't care how I feel". He said it's probably more like she just doesn't comprehend how you feel.

My lawyer recommend that I see a "real psychiatrist", not "just a therapist". We are in a rural area, the closest psychiatrist I see listed is about 70 miles from here. I'm curious to see what, if any impact me taking half a day to go there and back for appointments, plus spending the money on it (I expect it won't be a trivial amount) will have. 

I've explained in detail why I fully believe me filing will backfire as a reconciliation attempt. I get that most of you are sure that I'm wrong in thinking this way. I understand that I can't know how she will react. Laugh at me, poke fun at me if you want, but I still think I know my wife, and I have a very strong gut feeling that me filing will make a bad situation even worse. I'm starting with the 180 and therapy. I thought I was doing good to finally be doing something other than just arguing with her about it. That is where I want to start. I can file at any time in the near future.

My lack of responding to the same thing over and over from here on will only be because I don't know what else to say or how else to explain my feelings on it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Well, the 180 will give her the space she wants to continue her affair.

I hope the therapy helps you wake up. I honestly do.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Guy66 said:


> I don't think she's noticed anything yet, it's only been a couple days. Right now I think she just thinks I'm just still mad about the last round we had over the "Baby-smoochy" text message.
> 
> We are packing up and putting the Christmas stuff away today. It's all been pretty normal so far. I'm not sure she will notice much of a change until she starts to realize that I'm really not paying any attention to what she's doing (and with whom).
> 
> ...


People here can get into a groove LOL. Pick and choose the advise you think you can use.

A real problem with emotional affairs is how often the people in them don't beleive they are in one.

"What are some of the red lights that detect whether you are an emotional cheater? 
•You keep aspects of your intimate life for your “friend” and do not share them with your partner.
•Your friendship shifts from platonic to romantic and you feel less connected to your partner. 
•You think about your friend most of the time and you fantasize about him or her even when you are making love with your partner.
•You feel recognized, appreciated, even loved by your “friend” so you do not feel the need to connect to your partner. You feel a distance between you and your partner.
•You withhold and “cut off” valuable aspects of who you are, particularly your intimate self and your intimate life from your partner. You stop having sex with your partner.
•You discuss the things you don’t like about your spouse or your married life with your friend and not with your spouse.
•You tell your “friend” more about what goes on regarding your workday and your work life than you do with your partner.
•You feel as if your “friend” has your heart.
•You are dishonest with your spouse about the extent of the friendship and feelings with and for your “friend.”
•You would be embarrassed if your partner read the e-mails, notes, or eavesdropped on a conversation, or saw the way you interacted in person with your “friend.”
•When you are with your “friend” your body language communicates that your feelings are stronger than friendship.
•There is sexual tension and you can discuss it openly with your “friend.”

How can couples rebound from an emotional affair? 
Understand that even if you have not slept with this person you have cheated. You have given your heart to someone else and prevented your partner from sharing what is essential to who you are and what is important to you. 

Agree that you went over the limits of trust between the two of you and that you recognize what you were looking for, getting, and missed in your primary relationship.

Recognize and be clear that you are still committed and attached to your partner and that you will discuss with him or her difficulties you have in your relationship and work on them together. 

Change the dynamic of the “friend” relationship so you can once again focus on your partner. Avoid discussing such personal details of your life and save them for your partner.

Find ways to share your feelings, goals, and dreams with your partner. Take the time to pay attention to your appearance, go out, find time to be intimate, erotic, whatever works for you to keep your love exciting and enticing."


Print this off and ask her to read it.


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## Guy66 (Nov 29, 2011)

As I read through that list, and many others I've come across, I think she hits positive on every bullet.

She has never outright denied that she is in an emotional affair. She just thinks I'm over reacting about it. When she did actually admit it one time, her response was "You don't have to worry, we're not going to do anything stupid" as if participating in any kind of affair isn't stupid. 

I think she knows what she is doing, but she doesn't see (or won't admit that) their connection as "wrong" since it's not physical. Yes, I know that it is a very small slip to get from emotional to physical, but I believe her pride is making her think she can control it, and herself.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Guy, 

I get what you say about her. What I don't think you get is that she is already in battle mode. She is in an affair ,and each and everything you do to prevent, interfere with, or stop the affair is another for her to fight. It's a drug she's getting high on and she won't give it up.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Guy66 said:


> As I read through that list, and many others I've come across, I think she hits positive on every bullet.
> 
> She has never outright denied that she is in an emotional affair. She just thinks I'm over reacting about it. When she did actually admit it one time, her response was "You don't have to worry, we're not going to do anything stupid" as if participating in any kind of affair isn't stupid.
> 
> I think she knows what she is doing, but she doesn't see (or won't admit that) their connection as "wrong" since it's not physical. Yes, I know that it is a very small slip to get from emotional to physical, but I believe her pride is making her think she can control it, and herself.


this is typical minimizing going on. Very common even in full blown physical affairs.

The fact that she is saying that to you - shows she has been thinking about him in that way.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Tell her that you getting lap dances should be OK too since you won't actually fvck them


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

That's not a bad idea...


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Go to this thread and go to Seeking Sanity's post and print it off for her to read. Ireally can't imagine she understands how her actions are hurting her family.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...t-friend-now-hes-back-help-11.html#post532761


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

chapparal said:


> Go to this thread and go to Shaggys post and print it off for her to read. Ireally can't imagine she understands how her actions are hurting her family.
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...t-friend-now-hes-back-help-11.html#post532761


Actually while it's nice to think I can contribute to folks, I think you meant Seeking Sanity's post.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> Actually while it's nice to think I can contribute to folks, I think you meant Seeking Sanity's post.


oops


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