# Porn and Sexual Energy



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I'm following through on my statement that I would start a new thread after a brief discussion on someone else's thread.

Porn. It's a touchy subject, and in this thread I'd like to keep the religious and moral objections out. Not that those aren't valid, but it's tough to have much of a back and forth because religious and moral objections are absolute in the eyes of those who hold them and you either agree or you don't.

My issue with porn is two fold. First, I'd bet the vast majority of people getting off to it wouldn't like their daughter doing it and that double standard bothers me. Why is it OK to get off to someone else's daughter but others can't get off to your daughter?

The other issue, which I think it bigger, is that it's not good for the marital bond. I know many will say "but I still want my wife and it's just a release".

To me that argument is shaky. We are told that men bond through sex. Ok. So how can it be that you can use sexual energy on porn and not release bonding chemicals? That energy isn't spent on your marriage.

We're also told that women bond emotionally. But they can't use emotional energy on someone else or even internet strangers or her hb must go nuclear and file for divorce. Based on the porn argument it shouldn't be an issue for her to get emotional intimacy elsewhere as long as her hb gets it too.

The end result if these attitudes is that men can use their primary bonding mechanism for porn as long as he's there for wife too, but wife is forbidden from using her primary bonding mechanism (emotional) elsewhere even if she's there for hb.

Or if porn is indeed just a release then men don't really bond that much through sex and it is about getting off.

So which is it? Do men bond through sex or not? How is that consistent with the claim that porn is no big deal if wife isn't being neglected? Why can't wife scratch emotional itches elsewhere if hubby isn't being neglected? It's just a little extra boost, right? Especially if she doesn't quite get enough emotional intimacy from her hb.....

On top of that, I guarantee that if your wife isn't 100% ok with porm your bond is suffering. It may not be the hill she chooses to die on but I promise it impacts her respect and desire for you. If I found out my guy was gobbling up porn I would not see him the same way and my desire for him would diminish (for the record we had sex 5 times last week and we don't even live together, so he's not going without. And I loved every minute of it) 😊

Note that I'm only talking to the guys with a decent sex life. This logic can't be applied to sexless marriages unless your porn use is what caused it.

Let's keep this to an unemotional discussion. Insults will not be tolerated 🙂


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

This is an interesting thread, I hope to post more fully formed thoughts later.

So to have your wife or girlfriend invest emotional energy into another man I would say is cheating, just like I would for a man.

If she invests emotional energy in her family and friends (say on Facebook like my wife everyday) not cheating and not problematic although it is annoying.

Man uses non-interactive porn to get off I would say is not cheating or bonding. Any oxytocin released is not bonding to anything except a phone or computer and the body replaces it. Interactive porn like cam girls, onlyfans, etc… then the man is investing emotional energy in a particular woman repeatedly and that’s bad. Similarly if the guy is infatuated with a particular performer or something like that, also not good.

I don’t think this is a case of sex is bonding or it’s not. Self-pleasure can be not bonding, what are you bonding to?

On the other hand you can’t have an emotional bond with someone you just met and didn’t interact with except watching a video or looking at a picture unless you’re mentally ill.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Not a marriage, but I was in a long term 5 plus year relationship and he was a porn user despite me being up for sex anytime, and he even admitted to me that because he was masturbating regularly his energy and enthusiasm for sex with me was less. His tank was extra empty. 

Masturbation to porn was _a habit_ of his. Some evenings he'd be "too tired" for sex but then after I left for work the next morning (he also wanted to sleep in later than me) he'd masturbate in my bed. WTF. So guess what, then THAT evening he'd already have had an orgasm once that day, and his sexual energy was less for our sexual relationship and for sex. He could have had sex with me either the night before or in the morning, he chose masturbation instead. Yuck. Big turn off. I'm not with him anymore and that's a big reason. This wasn't a one off, it was an ongoing situation with him. Enjoy your masturbation, buddy, hope it's satisfying!!! 

I'll never tolerate a habitual masturbator again. I'm in my 50s so especially with men in the age range I will be pairing with, alot of masturbation is definitely going to dampen his fire and desire for actual sex. It's not like a 20 year old who can masturbate all of the time and still have fire left for a lot of sex, too. If he's spending a lot of his passion and sexual energy on porn then he can keep in doing that, I'm out!!!


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

If you are living in a sexless, but otherwise loving marriage, porn can help take the edge of sexual frustrations. 

And I'd guess that this is true for men and women, gay or straight?


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Men who use porn sense a lack of affirmation of being attractive to their spouse.
I'm not saying that is the case for all porn users, but that is the psychology behind much of it.
They could also expressing childhood wounds. 
It's easier to use porn when there is no permission needed for sexual release.


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

I agree with all points in the OP. And at least for this man, sex is absolutely about bonding with my wife.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> If you are living in a sexless, but otherwise loving marriage, porn can help take the edge of sexual frustrations.
> 
> And I'd guess that this is true for men and women, gay or straight?


Absolutely, which is why I said that I wasn't addressing the guys in marriages that are sexless for other reasons.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

ccpowerslave said:


> This is an interesting thread, I hope to post more fully formed thoughts later.
> 
> So to have your wife or girlfriend invest emotional energy into another man I would say is cheating, just like I would for a man.
> 
> ...


This pretty much sums up my thoughts. You can't bond to a recorded video on a computer screen. 

Now one instance it could be a potential problem is if the husband is masturbating to porn while fantasizing about a specific real woman like a neighbor or coworker. I don't know if there is any research on this but I think for most people watching porn it is a simple mindless release. But it can definitely be a problem and interfere in a marriage if used as a replacement for a willing enthusiastic partner.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Not a marriage, but I was in a long term 5 plus year relationship and he was a porn user despite me being up for sex anytime, and he even admitted to me that because he was masturbating regularly his energy and enthusiasm for sex with me was less. His tank was extra empty.
> 
> Masturbation to porn was _a habit_ of his. Some evenings he'd be "too tired" for sex but then after I left for work the next morning (he also wanted to sleep in later than me) he'd masturbate in my bed. WTF. So guess what, then THAT evening he'd already have had an orgasm once that day, and his sexual energy was less for our sexual relationship and for sex. He could have had sex with me either the night before or in the morning, he chose masturbation instead. Yuck. Big turn off. I'm not with him anymore and that's a big reason. This wasn't a one off, it was an ongoing situation with him. Enjoy your masturbation, buddy, hope it's satisfying!!!
> 
> I'll never tolerate a habitual masturbator again. I'm in my 50s so especially with men in the age range I will be pairing with, alot of masturbation is definitely going to dampen his fire and desire for actual sex. It's not like a 20 year old who can masturbate all of the time and still have fire left for a lot of sex, too. If he's spending a lot of his passion and sexual energy on porn then he can keep in doing that, I'm out!!!


I feel you. My ex had ED that he refused to deal with (he was 50 when I met him). He was also heavily into a particular fetish that he indulged online, and not only did he use the little sexual energy he had there he also got to the point where he couldn't function with me at all if his ferish wasn't part of things. I started to hate it and stopped wanting much with him, and that was BEFORE I found out about the ex gf on the side. I can laugh about it now.

I'm not currently a porn user, but I have looked at it at times in my life and those times have pretty much always been when I'm not bonded with a partner. I'm crazy about my current guy so the thought of porn is empty....I'd much rather use the energy I have on him. I'm late 40's and he's mid 50's.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I thought I had some thing to contribute, but I'm confused as to the thread rules>
1 no posting religious porn rules
2 no posting unless you are in a sexually satisfying relationship
Is there anything else?


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> This is an interesting thread, I hope to post more fully formed thoughts later.
> 
> So to have your wife or girlfriend invest emotional energy into another man I would say is cheating, just like I would for a man.
> 
> ...


I'll push back a bit. Whether porn that doesn't involve live women is cheating is a separate question from whether it damages the marital bond. It's still energy going elsewhere and it will damage the bond even if its on the female end. She's not going to believe that you're not thinking about porn when you're with her.

And of there's no bonding chemicals released where does porn addiction come from? There have been studies that show that porn hits the same section of the brain as heroin.

If she invests emotional energy in friends or family and that's a annoying, is porn use also annoying? Why would her filling her emotional tank elsewhere be a problem of she needs extra? Isn't that the hist of the porn argument? He just needs more then he's getting?


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> I thought I had some thing to contribute, but I'm confused as to the thread rules>
> 1 no posting religious porn rules
> 2 no posting unless you are in a sexually satisfying relationship
> Is there anything else?


Umm...don't know what you read but let me help 🙂

I said that we're not going to entertain religious or moral arguments because those are absolute and can't be discussed with others who don't share your religious views. That devolves into an I know God and you didn't argument....unproductive.

I did NOT say that those in sexless marriages can't post. I said my arguments aren't aimed that way because said arguments can't be applied of you don't have a willing partner. I knew if I didn't post that we'd end up on the tangent of going to porn because you have no other options and I wanted to focus on the bonding issue.

If you feel porn use is impacting your bond or you have any other thoughts about what it does to the marital bond by all means chime in.


----------



## uwe.blab (May 2, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> This is an interesting thread, I hope to post more fully formed thoughts later.
> 
> So to have your wife or girlfriend invest emotional energy into another man I would say is cheating, just like I would for a man.
> 
> ...


It may not be cheating but it is certainly going to affect your ability and desire to be with your spouse. There is an energy spent and there is a release and if it doesn't feel good-- the chemicals released-- then it would not be a multi-billion dollar industry. (and yes i know you can 'get it for free' online...) It's just intellectually dishonest to even try to explain it away frankly.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I always been of the opinion that, if porn doesn't interfere with the sexual relationship or the relationship in general, it's ok.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> If she invests emotional energy in friends or family and that's a annoying, is porn use also annoying?


Here is a hypothetical.

Let’s say someone’s wife came home last night and happened to be wearing a sexy little cami that she happened to wear to bed and then initiated on her husband and banged the snot out of him.

He gets up at 4:30am today and she’s still wearing the cami but she’s sleeping. In fact she will likely not be awake for 3 hours. The next time she might be interested in sex is 16 hours later. But there she is looking hot in that cami.

So would it be annoying if the guy wacked off using porn or otherwise? His wife is still sleeping, the guy has a long time to recover, and she won’t even know because his boxer shorts already have stains on them (from her).

Is that annoying? Maybe… gross? Maybe…

What is annoying about someone’s use of Facebook is they’re constantly doing it. If they do it in such a way as it doesn’t affect others then it’s not annoying.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> Here is a hypothetical.
> 
> Let’s say someone’s wife came home last night and happened to be wearing a sexy little cami that she happened to wear to bed and then initiated on her husband and banged the snot out of him.
> 
> ...


Ok, that's fair. The FB stuff you're talking about starts to affect what her parter is getting though so now you're getting into neglect.

If you're busy elsewhere and not looking for her attention then her time on FB shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> So would it be annoying if the guy wacked off using porn or otherwise? His wife is still sleeping, the guy has a long time to recover, and she won’t even know because his boxer shorts already have stains on them (from her).


I'm just asking, I'm not attacking. If the sight of her in her sexy cami and the thoughts of the night before get the guy excited, why can't he use the sight of her sleeping (I hope she's not like drooling or snoring, that's less sexy (but kinda funny)  🤪) and the memory of her from the night before instead of turning to porn?

This is a genuine good faith question. One poster mentioned that sometimes when you watch porn you're watching the situation and not the people specifically, imagining yourself and sometimes even your wife in that situation. I understand that. I'm just asking if you can use the sight of her there and the memory of the sex, would that work, and if it would, why would you choose something else?

Plus, this may be WAY too much information and I hope this isn't deleted, but honestly, if my husband was that turned on I would be turned on that he masturbated to me and would be 100% ok with him waking me up for that.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

uwe.blab said:


> It may not be cheating but it is certainly going to affect your ability and desire to be with your spouse. There is an energy spent and there is a release and if it doesn't feel good-- the chemicals released-- then it would not be a multi-billion dollar industry. (and yes i know you can 'get it for free' online...) It's just intellectually dishonest to even try to explain it away frankly.


I guess, it could definitely affect your ability.

But what if it didn’t? What if you have a 25 gallon tank and your partner has 5 gallons of output?


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> I always been of the opinion that, if porn doesn't interfere with the sexual relationship or the relationship in general, it's ok.


On a high level I can agree with that, but the issue as I see it is that it actually does affect the relationship more then the user often realizes.

Unless your wife has assured you that she is 100% just fine with it then it is affecting your relationship. How much is obviously variable and involves different factors.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> I guess, it could definitely affect your ability.
> 
> But what if it didn’t? What if you have a 25 gallon tank and your partner has 5 gallons of output?


Women run into the emotional issue all the time....25 gallon tank with a hb who's good for 5


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> Women run into the emotional issue all the time....25 gallon tank with a hb who's good for 5


Misery is not mutually exclusive i guess. 

This is where the problem lies and why many marriages fail. When two people are unable to meet the needs of their spouse. If he can't meet hers she will not be able to meet his and vice versa. The situation puts the marriage into a steep dive and both pilots have to focus all their energy on pulling back on the yoke to stop the dive, and keep focus to get the relationship back to cruise altitude.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> Women run into the emotional issue all the time....25 gallon tank with a hb who's good for 5


If she can find a way to deal with that in a way compatible with monogamy that also doesn’t encroach on time together I have no issue with her doing so.

For example my wife used to talk on the phone while she was commuting. Didn’t affect me in any way, didn’t care.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Great thread @lifeistooshort .

Yeah- lies have a way of unraveling without deep theological or philosophical arguments. You’re gut tells you it’s a lie.

Same with porn. Guys write books on here trying to defend it… requires them to speak outside both sides of their mouth- kind of like car salesmen. 😆

No matter how eloquent- still a lie!


----------



## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm following through on my statement that I would start a new thread after a brief discussion on someone else's thread.
> 
> Porn. It's a touchy subject, and in this thread I'd like to keep the religious and moral objections out. Not that those aren't valid, but it's tough to have much of a back and forth because religious and moral objections are absolute in the eyes of those who hold them and you either agree or you don't.
> 
> ...


First, I believe what you posted is a very good and valid post. I also want to say that I am trying to get my opinion across without sounding rude, insulting, or anything of that nature. But its easy to misjudge a person's attitude and demeanor through words written. Its easy to believe I am just trying to be an azz when I am not 

I feel like porn along with many other items or activities can be overindulged and become addictive. But I feel like porn can be an extremely useful tool in a couples sex life. Porn comes in many different levels from soft to downright 😱 how is that possible. But I feel like its use all depends on how vanilla or spicy a couple is in the bedroom. It can certainly get you or you and your spouse in the mood even if you aren't in the mood. I also dont believe guys bond with porn anymore than ladies bond with a steamy sex filled romance novel 

I strongly believe every part of sex should be discussed before marriage to make sure you are compatible together as everyone is different. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being vanilla and there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a super freak with your own sex dungeon and two 75inch tvs with porn playing while you get it on with your partner. But a couple with opposite levels of drive like this are not going to work and a poor compatibility in sex is like putting a new house on a crumbling foundation. It might be ok for the short term, but it will come crashing down 

Both my wife and I use porn occasionally in the bedroom and its not a problem for either of us. Neither of us are addicted and I haven't seen any this year at all. We have a great sex life and we both mastrubate from time to time. Ironically when we were dating, she is the one who asked me about how I felt about her using sex toys and porn.

The way we view it, its just a tool in the bedroom like sex toys. The people in the videos aren't actually with you and you aren't going to meet them in real life for sex. I also feel like it might be a sign of a persons insecurity in a relationship when they get worked up over porn, and masturbatiin. I think they are terrified that they are being replaced by a sex toy or a video. Those insecurities can be a real turn off. But on the other hand, it is a problem if porn and mastrubating have replaced sex with your spouse. That is a clear indication that something is wrong in the relationship. Obviously both spouses still have drive, but one is not interested in the other and it should be addressed asap. 

As far as having a daughter in the industry? If she is of legal age, she is free to do all the porn she wants. I hope she does something else but I don't control her. If she chooses that path, I will still love her, but I don't want to hear anything about it. And whether or not she does porn, men are going to lust after her as that is natural human urge. I lusted after my wife when we were dating and so did guys in her relationships before that, and my wife is someones daughter. Of course as a father I don't sit there thinking about that, but I know when she is grown and gone, men will lust after her.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Misery is not mutually exclusive i guess.
> 
> This is where the problem lies and why many marriages fail. When two people are unable to meet the needs of their spouse. If he can't meet hers she will not be able to meet his and vice versa. The situation puts the marriage into a steep dive and both pilots have to focus all their energy on pulling back on the yoke to stop the dive, and keep focus to get the relationship back to cruise altitude.


Yes, it is a give and take where you need balance between reason effort and reasonable ask.

If a woman's emotional tank is 25 gallons and her hb's natural output is 5 its reasonable to ask him to make the extra effort for 10 or 15 but the full 25 mat not be reasonable.

Likewise with physical intimacy.

Accepting who you're dealing with and having a spouse who makes honest effort is key, but it's really tough to maintain because internal systems tend toward equilibrium over time.

I think I just has a nerd moment 🤓


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

My marriage wasn’t what it could have been for a number of reasons and from the beginning porn was a problem. Other things also became problems during the decades we were married but porn was the first real problem. There were many discussions over time about the negative effect on our relationship but nothing ever changed. Eventually the marriage bond weakened and then it broke. Porn wasn’t the primary reason my marriage failed but it definitely was on the list.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Based on all of the hormones and neurotransmitters released during the big O, I have started to think of sex and porn as a drug. Like other drugs, you can get addicted to it. Some people seem more susceptible to addiction then others. etc.

If sex/porn is a drug, how would you classify it? (Yes, I'm asking other peoples thoughts on this) Would you place it as common drug like alcohol and weed? Does it fit with drugs that seem really dumb, like sniffing paint thinner or gasoline, or eating Tide pods? Does it fit with hard drugs like heroine or cocaine?

It is my opinion that it is best if you are getting your drug dose from your partner. Getting it from somewhere else may or maynot damage the relationship, but it doesn't build the relationship (unless both have agreed to it).


----------



## MarmiteC (Jun 28, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I'm just asking, I'm not attacking. If the sight of her in her sexy cami and the thoughts of the night before get the guy excited, why can't he use the sight of her sleeping (I hope she's not like drooling or snoring, that's less sexy (but kinda funny)  🤪) and the memory of her from the night before instead of turning to porn?


I'm with TexasMom in this. If I found out my partner masturbated to thoughts of me/us together I would have no issue. If he used porn in the scenario CCPowerslave described, I'd want to understand it was needed.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

leftfield said:


> Based on all of the hormones and neurotransmitters released during the big O, I have started to think of sex and porn as a drug. Like other drugs, you can get addicted to it. Some people seem more susceptible to addiction then others. etc.
> 
> If sex/porn is a drug, how would you classify it? (Yes, I'm asking other peoples thoughts on this) Would you place it as common drug like alcohol and weed? Does it fit with drugs that seem really dumb, like sniffing paint thinner or gasoline, or eating Tide pods? Does it fit with hard drugs like heroine or cocaine?
> 
> It is my opinion that it is best if you are getting your drug dose from your partner. Getting it from somewhere else may or maynot damage the relationship, but it doesn't build the relationship (unless both have agreed to it).


I think actual sexual addiction is probably like heroin because the true addiction will ruin your life. The mental pleasure side for those not addicted is probably more like weed. Fun, relaxing pleasurable. Now combine sex with weed and you have a powerful cocktail.


----------



## Angie?or… (Nov 15, 2021)

My husband doesn’t use porn, and I am glad. For me, it would damage our bond because rightly or wrongly, I would feel like I had to compete, and I am neither willing nor able to compete with porn stars.

I would also lose respect for him, because I do believe the industry is largely exploitative. Also, I felt repulsed and violated by dirty old men lusting after me when I was young, and I don’t want to think about my man being a “dirty old man” lusting after girls younger than our daughter.

As far as meeting emotional needs, both men and women can meet them safely through friends and family. Both partners should try to meet each other’s needs as much as possible, sexual and emotional, but we should distinguish between wants and needs. No one person is going to satisfy all our needs, emotionally or sexually, 100% of the time. That’s just the reality.

As long as your marriage is meeting most of your needs and some of your wants, it really isn’t good to satisfy your wants in a way that hurts your partner. If there is a chance that porn is hurting a wife who tries to satisfy her husband’s needs, then it is as wrong as a wife having an EA to satisfy her emotional needs.

If your spouse doesn’t object to your porn use, then it isn’t anyone else’s business.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I think actual sexual addiction is probably like heroin because the true addiction will ruin your life. The mental pleasure side for those not addicted is probably more like weed. Fun, relaxing pleasurable. Now combine sex with weed and you have a powerful cocktail.


Addiction to alchol will ruin your life and the lives of poeple around you, but alcohol is probably the most widely accepted and used drug.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

leftfield said:


> Addiction to alchol will ruin your life and the lives of poeple around you, but alcohol is probably the most widely accepted and used drug.


I agree I was going to say alcohol but having known alcoholics, heroin addicts and sex addicts, thinking about it, I see more similarities between the heroin and sex addiction. They both end up with crazy behavior to get the fix. Alcohol the similarities are more on the tail end of getting the fix where the destruction comes. They will all eventually ruin your life though.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I agree I was going to say alcohol but having known alcoholics, heroin addicts and sex addicts, thinking about it, I see more similarities between the heroin and sex addiction. They both end up with crazy behavior to get the fix. Alcohol the similarities are more on the tail end of getting the fix where the destruction comes. They will all eventually ruin your life though.


Well heroin and sex both cause dopamine release, so it doesn't surprise me that you see similarities between them.


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Well not sure if I am qualified to post based on the OP's suggestion that the guy be in a sexually satisfying relationship but that's the very reason I watch porn. Wife goes to bed very early each night around 8pm (to sleep not for any fun) so thats when I typically watch it. We never, I mean NEVER have sex at night so that's my entertainment. And its not every night but maybe a time or two each week.

And I am not here to convince anyone its right or wrong, its just why I do it.

I figure if it really bothers her she will want to have sex but apparently it doesn't as we don't so...

As I said, not trying to defend, support, etc. Just stating the facts for my situation as I do believe everyone's situation is different.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> Well, I'm not happy with where the bond argument is going. It doesn't make any sense to me. In fact, the only conclusion I can draw is that, some people will continue to refuse to believe what other people will continue to say about emotional bonding.
> Exhibit A:
> Man plays basket ball 2 hours weekly with his guy pals. He tells his wife that this is his male bonding. His wife claims that this can't possibly be true, because "they never talk about anything".
> And yet on the day that he discovers that she is cheating on him, who will he turn to?
> ...


Your situation is beyond what's being discussed here bit FWIW those women are stupid.

Men have varying degrees of emotional needs just like women have sexual needs and your wife should absolutely be making an effort to talk to you. But maybe you're incompatible.

I understand more then you might think. My ex hb pretty much met none of my emotional needs...he was so surface and phony that anything beyond sports and the weather made him uncommon and baby certainly couldn't be the least bit uncomfortable.

The little bit of sex qe had for some time kept me a little bonded as I crave physical touch. Eventually that dried up with his ferish, worsening ED, and the discovery of the ex gf. And my father, who I'd been very close to, had died a few years prior and left a huge hole in my life. So there was nothing left with my ex and I left.

At the end of the day we were incompatible.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Well not sure if I am qualified to post based on the OP's suggestion that the guy be in a sexually satisfying relationship but that's the very reason I watch porn. Wife goes to bed very early each night around 8pm (to sleep not for any fun) so thats when I typically watch it. We never, I mean NEVER have sex at night so that's my entertainment. And its not every night but maybe a time or two each week.
> 
> And I am not here to convince anyone its right or wrong, its just why I do it.
> 
> ...


You're the second guy to say this and I don't understand where you're getting it. I never said you weren't qualified to post on the topic....I said that my arguments wouldn't hold up in a sexless marriage scenario.

Hard to argue that porn is screwing things up if your wife avoids you sexually, assuming your porn use didn't cause it.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> If you are living in a sexless, but otherwise loving marriage, porn can help take the edge of sexual frustrations.
> 
> And I'd guess that this is true for men and women, gay or straight?


As can masturbation on it's own.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> Note that I'm only talking to the guys with a decent sex life. This logic can't be applied to sexless marriages unless your porn use is what caused it.


You posed a lot of questions and a lot of material. How does one eat an elephant - one bite at a time.

I’ll work in reverse and share my thoughts on the sexlessness aspect first.

I used to think differently but I now think guys that are in sexless marriages or are not in a sexual relationship but want to be or want to fix their sexless marriages should go No Fap. 

While some believe spanking and porn etc are OK during dry spells, I am coming around to the thought that that is when one should go No Fap and let the tank fill and let the pressure build. 

The pressure, or just sheer horniness may push them into action. 

A man full of horny hormones will move mountains. 

When a guy has an empty tank and full of post orgasm hormones, he is calm and sedate and happy to just sit there and play Xbox. 

While I have no religious or moral objections to porn at all and admit there is some I find very sexy and alluring, I think I’m practical terms, it can make men lazy. 

And Mother Nature never intended for lazy males to breed.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I'm just asking, I'm not attacking. If the sight of her in her sexy cami and the thoughts of the night before get the guy excited, why can't he use the sight of her sleeping (I hope she's not like drooling or snoring, that's less sexy (but kinda funny)  🤪) and the memory of her from the night before instead of turning to porn?


I suppose they could. Hopefully not in the same room though. I’m not a lady but I think I’d probably find it more creepy than having a porn using husband to wake up in the middle of the night and have him spanking it next to me.

On the other hand if I woke up in the middle of the night and my wife was masturbating I would think that was hot (with or without porn). But she never would do that. I was surprised she masturbated at all and even then only very infrequently when I was away on business trips and I rarely travel for business.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> You posed a lot of questions and a lot of material. How does one eat an elephant - one bite at a time.
> 
> I’ll work in reverse and share my thoughts on the sexlessness aspect first.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I know it was a lot but I wanted ti throw a bunch of stuff out there.

I see what you mean about No Fap.....I hadn't thought of it that way but it is in line with my thoughts about men making a lot of effort for something they really want. It's why I absolutely will not pursue a guy initiative....because men can be lazy and will sometimes take what's easy to get even if its not something they'd make a lot of effort for.

A guy will pursue when he's interested if he gets an inkling that you're interested. Once his interest is established I'm happy to make more effort.

Sorry, that was a tangent but your lazy men comment made me think of it.

Agreed that mother nature didn't intend for lazy men to breed.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

You have a point about if the guy is getting his needs met via other women on porn, then so can women get their, usually emotional needs, met in other ways. Men won't agree with that of course.

I so agree with your point about how for many women their spouse using porn lowers their respect and love for them and sometimes they loose their sexual desire along with that. It would certainly be the case for me. So the porn sometimes creates a vicious circle. Damaging the marriage in the process. 

I wonder how many porn watchers would like if they were out with their 18 year old daughter and an older man or men ogled her or leered at her. Not much I bet. They would probably challenge them on it. As you say though, gross double standards. 

Even if these women have chosen to do what they do, they are still someones child/sister/partner/mother. They are still worth respecting.
Not being used like a piece of meat.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> We're also told that women bond emotionally. But they can't use emotional energy on someone else or even internet strangers or her hb must go nuclear and file for divorce. Based on the porn argument it shouldn't be an issue for her to get emotional intimacy elsewhere as long as her hb gets it too.
> 
> The end result if these attitudes is that men can use their primary bonding mechanism for porn as long as he's there for wife too, but wife is forbidden from using her primary bonding mechanism (emotional) elsewhere even if she's there for hb.
> 
> ...


I presume you are talking about a wife getting her emotional needs met through another heterosexual man.

This question is simple if that is the case. It’s because if she is getting emotionally involved with another man, her jay-jay is likely to follow. 

And the OM will not be in it for just some emotional support, he will be trying to score. 

I suppose if God appeared before some men and told them that their wives would get some emotional need met from some other guy and it would never turn sexual and their wife would never neglect them, then if they were to get signed and notarized affidavits that were signed off by a judge, then they might consider it LOL.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> I’m not a lady but I think I’d probably find it more creepy than having a porn using husband to wake up in the middle of the night and have him spanking it next to me.


I would not. I would feel the same way you would feel if you woke up to your wife doing it. But I would NEVER. EVER. I'm too... insecure, shy or whatever. But if I woke up and he was doing that, or better yet, touching me or even looking at me, OMG I would go feral.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I would not. I would feel the same way you would feel if you woke up to your wife doing it. But I would NEVER. EVER. I'm too... insecure, shy or whatever. But if I woke up and he was doing that, or better yet, touching me or even looking at me, OMG I would go feral.


I suspect my wife’s reaction would be, “Can’t you take care of that somewhere else? Bleh…”. Who knows though maybe I should try it.


----------



## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

lifeistooshort said:


> My issue with porn is two fold. First, I'd bet the vast majority of people getting off to it wouldn't like their daughter doing it and that double standard bothers me. Why is it OK to get off to someone else's daughter but others can't get off to your daughter? *-A little straw man argument don't you think? *
> 
> The other issue, which I think it bigger, is that it's not good for the marital bond. I know many will say "but I still want my wife and it's just a release".
> 
> ...


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> I suspect my wife’s reaction would be, “Can’t you take care of that somewhere else? Bleh…”. Who knows though maybe I should try it.


We're all different. I'd love if my H would do that but I would never have the courage to tell him. You could ask I suppose...


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm following through on my statement that I would start a new thread after a brief discussion on someone else's thread.


I'll respond in bite size pieces.



> My issue with porn is two fold. First, I'd bet the vast majority of people getting off to it wouldn't like their daughter doing it and that double standard bothers me. Why is it OK to get off to someone else's daughter but others can't get off to your daughter?


Not me.

If any of my now adult children want to participate in the creation of (adult and consenting) pornography, as autonomous individuals that is up to them to decide, of which if that is their choice I'm okay with other people getting off while seeing that.

Plus for what it's worth, my wife and I as a couple have posted some of our own home made (adult and consenting) selfie pornography on a popular fetish website. And we don't care if people have enjoyed themselves or not while looking at our stuff.


----------



## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

I think a lot of women falsely believe men simply "replace" women with sexual energy used up with the use of porn...In most cases(IME), *the porn became the end result of a failure somewhere else in the relationship.*...It wasn't happening either way, just that now it's become the guys coping mechanism...It could be anyone's fault, but at the end of the day, it is what it is....Some sort of dysfunction lead to it, not the other way around...But yeah, it's easy to blame that...To give you an example, if a woman says a guy isn't effing them and is spending his sexual energy on porn, while also ignoring the fact that she put on 75 lbs and doesn't groom or act in a way that would make her desirous, then she isn't seeing the whole picture...Or maybe it's not anything physical perhaps she is just a garden variety pain in the ass...Not sexy...Guys are conditioned to never say negative things about a woman's appearance, so these things often fester....for years.....

I don't know ANY guy that would freely and willingly replace a woman he has sexual attraction for with an image on a screen...There is more I can say, but don't have time today...


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Personal said:


> I'll respond in bite size pieces.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I appreciate the consistent view. I can respect differing opinions but I dislike hypocrisy.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

ccpowerslave said:


> I suspect my wife’s reaction would be, “Can’t you take care of that somewhere else? Bleh…”. Who knows though maybe I should try it.


I find women prefer to just wake up in the morning with their eyelids stuck together.


----------



## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> *I wonder how many porn watchers would like if they were out with their 18 year old daughter and an older man or men ogled her or leered at her. Not much I bet. They would probably challenge them on it. As you say though, gross double standards.*
> 
> Even if these women have chosen to do what they do, they are still someones child/sister/partner/mother. They are still worth respecting.
> Not being used like a piece of meat.



I have a 20 year old daughter that is drop dead gorgeous...She turns heads wherever she goes...Yes, I have witnessed guys gushing over her when we may have been out at a restaurant or whatever...I can't get too pissed about that, I would easily have done the same thing if I was them, maybe be a little less obvious, lol...While I enjoy kicking some ass, i'd spend most of my day doing that if it meant that I needed to challenge every guy that thought she looked hot....That would be tiresome...And quite frankly I would have zero control if those guys then went into the stall in the bathroom and rubbed one out thinking about my kid...I have enough crap to keep me up at night, I don't need any more...

Also, I wouldn't want my daughter waiting tables at the local truck stop or some dingy Waffle House, do I now boycott those places because of it??...No disrespect to those women that do it, and I am generally a generous tipper, people do what they do, as long as it's legal I can't control it, no more than I can control the clowns that dream of my kid...It is what it is....


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I married very young. My husband’s porn habit was already well established by that time although it took a little while for me to become aware of the effect it had on our relationship. I was in peak physical condition in every way and I was dealing with a husband who, although he denied it, apparently preferred porn to his wife during what was supposed to be the honeymoon stage of our lives. That never changed. It took a long time for me to realize that was on him — not me — but the damage was done. My energy went into the marriage. His didn’t and he didn’t see that as a problem. I thought he would eventually grow up. Nope. If I had that life to live over I would have gotten out quickly.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> First, I believe what you posted is a very good and valid post. I also want to say that I am trying to get my opinion across without sounding rude, insulting, or anything of that nature. But its easy to misjudge a person's attitude and demeanor through words written. Its easy to believe I am just trying to be an azz when I am not
> 
> I feel like porn along with many other items or activities can be overindulged and become addictive. But I feel like porn can be an extremely useful tool in a couples sex life. Porn comes in many different levels from soft to downright 😱 how is that possible. But I feel like its use all depends on how vanilla or spicy a couple is in the bedroom. It can certainly get you or you and your spouse in the mood even if you aren't in the mood. I also dont believe guys bond with porn anymore than ladies bond with a steamy sex filled romance novel
> 
> ...


I can only speak for myself and Mr D, but for us, not watching porn is nothing whatever to do with insecurity. In fact it's our security that enabled us to say no to porn use with whoever we were to meet.
An insecure person would probably think they wouldn't find a guy who would go along with that so may well lower their expectations. 
Being secure enables you to have high expectations and stick to them even if that means remaining single.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

hamadryad said:


> I have a 20 year old daughter that is drop dead gorgeous...She turns heads wherever she goes...Yes, I have witnessed guys gushing over her when we may have been out at a restaurant or whatever...I can't get too pissed about that, I would easily have done the same thing if I was them, maybe be a little less obvious, lol...While I enjoy kicking some ass, i'd spend most of my day doing that if it meant that I needed to challenge every guy that thought she looked hot....That would be tiresome...And quite frankly I would have zero control if those guys then went into the stall in the bathroom and rubbed one out thinking about my kid...I have enough crap to keep me up at night, I don't need any more...
> 
> Also, I wouldn't want my daughter waiting tables at the local truck stop or some dingy Waffle House, do I now boycott those places because of it??...No disrespect to those women that do it, and I am generally a generous tipper, people do what they do, as long as it's legal I can't control it, no more than I can control the clowns that dream of my kid...It is what it is....


So you would be ok with her on porn? Maybe you would even find her yourself if you were watching it which may be a shock. 
I just think we should treat people with respect.They may not respect themselves but why does that mean we can't see them with respect? I can't do that if I see them like a piece of meat for me to use for my own selfishness.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Openminded said:


> I married very young. My husband’s porn habit was already well established by that time although it took a little while for me to become aware of the effect it had on our relationship. I was in peak physical condition in every way and I was dealing with a husband who, although he denied it, apparently preferred porn to his wife during what was supposed to be the honeymoon stage of our lives. That never changed. It took a long time for me to realize that was on him — not me — but the damage was done. My energy went into the marriage. His didn’t and he didn’t see that as a problem. I thought he would eventually grow up. Nope. If I had that life to live over I would have gotten out quickly.


Has it made you more careful about other guys you may meet who are porn users?


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Has it made you more careful about other guys you may meet who are porn users?


That is an interesting question. I have recently tried to think what my life or my husbands would be like if one died or we divorced. With age I feel like we should be prepared. It is mostly to do with money and retirement planning. But my mind has crossed over to other places (mainly due to being a member on this site).

I would absolutely not get involved with a regular porn user. If a active willing live girl isn't enough then they need to find the mythical girl that wants it more than 10 times a week. Or the one who has absolutely no problem with porn. I'm sure they will find her, it just won't be me. I'd rather be alone. 

I feel no matter what the men argue it is disrespectful. And there is a difference in 'having' sex as often as she wants and spending sexual energy on porn. It would also make me feel unloved which would mean I'd lose the desire. If a second marriage isn't going to have desire and sex then I don't need a second marriage or LTR>


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> Porn. It's a touchy subject, and in this thread I'd like to keep the religious and moral objections out. Not that those aren't valid, but it's tough to have much of a back and forth because religious and moral objections are absolute in the eyes of those who hold them and you either agree or you don't.
> 
> My issue with porn is two fold. First, I'd bet the vast majority of people getting off to it wouldn't like their daughter doing it and that double standard bothers me. Why is it OK to get off to someone else's daughter but others can't get off to your daughter?


There’s probably going to be a generation gap on this issue in the upcoming years.

Those of us over 30 are going to react in horror because we have been raised with the social, political and religious narrative that women in porn are all sex trafficked or starving, desperate drug addicts or by necessity are victims of sex abuse and all come from broken homes etc. 

Now whatever comes out of Malaysia or Eastern Europe or the back alleys of Bangkok, who knows. 

But in western, developed countries and especially the US, that old narrative and image is likely fading fast in the younger generations.

Today the US porn industry is changing by the day. 

40 years ago it may have been the fat, sleazy, mafia-connected pornographer with the cigar in his mouth pandering to the desperate, coke addicted young runaways.

Today young women are lining up at the agency’s doors waiting their turn and asking how much they’re gonna get paid.

And the trend growing the most is people are producing their own content. 

The old-school porn agencies are going out of business and the business model is people producing their own and networking amongst other content producers. 

Many of today’s porn stars are not the desperate, starving chicks being preyed upon by Larry Flint and his kind, but young business women and entrepreneurs making their own content. 

It ain’t your daddy’s VHS tapes in a box under the basement stairs anymore. 

People of our generation recoil in shock and horror at the thought. 

30 years from now it will be a whole different thought process.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Has it made you more careful about other guys you may meet who are porn users?


It‘s definitely part of the reason I’ll never have another serious relationship. There were too many lies in my marriage so, unfortunately, I can no longer trust.


----------



## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> So you would be ok with her on porn? Maybe you would even find her yourself if you were watching it which may be a shock.
> I just think we should treat people with respect.They may not respect themselves but why does that mean we can't see them with respect? I can't do that if I see them like a piece of meat for me to use for my own selfishness.


I am just curious as to why you believe a person in adult movies dont respect themselves? I think its fairly safe to say that the vast overwhelming majority of adults on this planet have had sex. Does it mean a person has more self respect simply because their sexual encounters haven't been seen?..... I am just asking for a little clarification. 

As I have said before, it just comes down to how open minded you are about sex. Some people are extremely conservative and would seriously consider or file for divorce if they found their spouse had a sex toy. And others are constantly trying to find new ways to to achieve new sexual heights with each other. My wife and I are very open in the bedroom. The only rule we have is that we have no physical contact with other people. 

This is why I believe you have to talk about sexual compatibility before marriage. If you aren't on or near the same level, I seriously doubt you will succeed long term


----------



## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

I didn’t read the whole thread but here is my situation.

I spend about 60% of my life on the opposite side of the planet from my wife. We use technology to our advantage but you can only do so much with an often slow connection. I use porn during my time away but when I am home it really doesn’t cross my mind much at all. We have a good sex life so it is easy to keep my cup full at home.

Which of course brings up “What about her when you are away?” I would say that our online time together is enough to keep her cup full as long as I keep contact every day and make an honest effort for meaningful “I hear you” conversation.

I wouldn’t be happy “or married” if she were getting that from another man. Do y’all think I have a double standard???? I’m curious…..


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> We're all different. I'd love if my H would do that but I would never have the courage to tell him. You could ask I suppose...


I pretty much know how she would react. She’s a night owl and she needs to sleep. In fact one of the things that I used to do that would piss her off is to initiate sex with her before 10am. She doesn’t like it so I stopped doing it and haven’t tried in a couple years.

Overall much better!


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> I am just curious as to why you believe a person in adult movies dont respect themselves? I think its fairly safe to say that the vast overwhelming majority of adults on this planet have had sex. Does it mean a person has more self respect simply because their sexual encounters haven't been seen?..... I am just asking for a little clarification.
> 
> As I have said before, it just comes down to how open minded you are about sex. Some people are extremely conservative and would seriously consider or file for divorce if they found their spouse had a sex toy. And others are constantly trying to find new ways to to achieve new sexual heights with each other. My wife and I are very open in the bedroom. The only rule we have is that we have no physical contact with other people.
> 
> This is why I believe you have to talk about sexual compatibility before marriage. If you aren't on or near the same level, I seriously doubt you will succeed long term


So if a man refuses to have a relationship with a girl whose body count is too high.... (which describes many of our male porn defenders). Isn't it hypocritical to support an industry that has women have sex with multiple people in an hour? Isn't it hypocritical to use that image to find your excitement?

You may be open to sex with a woman whose banged 8 guys the last hour but most are not. And there is a difference between open minded an wanting the sexual bond to only include two people. I feel I am open to most typical sexual encounters. I can go 3 times a day on the weekends, I like anal, will use toys, swings, butt plugs for me or him, I will do oral (thought not usually stand alone to completion BJ's). What do you feel my husband is missing by not looking at porn. 

The other thought is there are lots of things people might want or desire but they aren't necessarily deprived if they don't get those things every time it pops into their head. a small child likes candy. A parent might give them candy once a day. Just because the child isn't overweight doesn't mean the child needs to have as much candy as they want when they want it.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jonty30 said:


> Men who use porn sense a lack of affirmation of being attractive to their spouse.
> I'm not saying that is the case for all porn users, but that is the psychology behind much of it.
> They could also expressing childhood wounds.
> It's easier to use porn when there is no permission needed for sexual release.


So how does watching p*** make them feel attractive again?


----------



## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> So you would be ok with her on porn? Maybe you would even find her yourself if you were watching it which may be a shock.
> I just think we should treat people with respect.They may not respect themselves but why does that mean we can't see them with respect? I can't do that if I see them like a piece of meat for me to use for my own selfishness.


Of course not...  She's a medical student in one of the most prestigious universities in the country....she won't have to ..

But.....

*I think YOU are the one being far too judgmental.*..Who are you to say they don't respect themselves? Not everyone is hung up on sexuality or displaying their bWhether you like it or not, its not illegal to do what they do...If that's the path they chose, then so be it...some have made fortunes off that industry...


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ccpowerslave said:


> This is an interesting thread, I hope to post more fully formed thoughts later.
> 
> So to have your wife or girlfriend invest emotional energy into another man I would say is cheating, just like I would for a man.
> 
> ...


They don't bond with p*** but they very often start trying to make their wife into the p*** star they're not emotionally bonding with.


----------



## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

oldshirt said:


> There’s probably going to be a generation gap on this issue in the upcoming years.
> 
> Those of us over 30 are going to react in horror because we have been raised with the social, political and religious narrative that women in porn are all sex trafficked or starving, desperate drug addicts or by necessity are victims of sex abuse and all come from broken homes etc.
> 
> ...


I believe you are spot on. I am over 30, but I realize, understand, and embrace the fact that society along with beliefs and values will change. Some of it is good and some not so good. I find that for the most part and not always, but its people around 45 and up that seem to have a very difficult time with accepting change of any kind.

There are marriage counselors and therapist now who are saying that they are finding the use of some porn as beneficial for couples struggling with intimacy or trying to revive their sex life..... I am not saying I do or don't support any of this. But society is constantly changing and evolving.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> So how does watching p*** make them feel attractive again?


Not sure how it makes them feel attractive because for most women it ACTUALLY makes them less attractive. It may not be the hill they decide to divorce over but very few women I've ever even heard of (I don't know any personally) that it doesn't hurt their feelings and their relationship with their husband.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> That is an interesting question. I have recently tried to think what my life or my husbands would be like if one died or we divorced. With age I feel like we should be prepared. It is mostly to do with money and retirement planning. But my mind has crossed over to other places (mainly due to being a member on this site).
> 
> I would absolutely not get involved with a regular porn user. If a active willing live girl isn't enough then they need to find the mythical girl that wants it more than 10 times a week. Or the one who has absolutely no problem with porn. I'm sure they will find her, it just won't be me. I'd rather be alone.
> 
> I feel no matter what the men argue it is disrespectful. And there is a difference in 'having' sex as often as she wants and spending sexual energy on porn. It would also make me feel unloved which would mean I'd lose the desire. If a second marriage isn't going to have desire and sex then I don't need a second marriage or LTR>


I feel the same. I wouldn't marry again anyway(two marriages is enough for me lol) but even if I wanted to It would be hard to find a man who wasn't a porn user.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

hamadryad said:


> Of course not...  She's a medical student in one of the most prestigious universities in the country....she won't have to ..
> 
> But.....
> 
> *I think YOU are the one being far too judgmental.*..Who are you to say they don't respect themselves? Not everyone is hung up on sexuality or displaying their bWhether you like it or not, its not illegal to do what they do...If that's the path they chose, then so be it...some have made fortunes off that industry...


LIke the studies that have been conducted?
Sex work and mental health can be thorny topics to navigate. Research has repeatedly shown a higher incidence of depression and other mental illness among sex workers when compared to other populations. A 2011 study that compared the mental health of female porn performers with that of other young women in California found that porn performers were significantly more likely to meet the criteria for depression than their peers who were not involved in sex work; a 2010 study of sex workers in Zurich found that “sex workers displayed high rates of mental disorders.”









Comparison of the Mental Health of Female Adult Film Performers and Other Young Women in California


Objective: This study compared self-reported mental health status and current depression of female adult film performers and other young women. Methods: A cross-sectional structured online survey adapted from the California Women's Health Survey (CWHS) was self-administered to a convenience...




ps.psychiatryonline.org


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> The other thought is there are lots of things people might want or desire but they aren't necessarily deprived if they don't get those things every time it pops into their head. a small child likes candy. A parent might give them candy once a day. Just because the child isn't overweight doesn't mean the child needs to have as much candy as they want when they want it.


This is true. Same can be said for drugs, alcohol, food, etc…

Are you a human or an animal? A human can choose not to do the thing that feels good an an animal generally can’t. 

Nevertheless 38% of men and 41% of women in America are obese as an example and all that is needed there is to not put food in your mouth.

So I went a long time nofap and no porn because I felt it was helping me. I think @oldshirt is onto something where it can stop you from doing things you need to do. 

I think having a partner that opposes it puts it into the “just stop” category.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

hamadryad said:


> Of course not...  She's a medical student in one of the most prestigious universities in the country....she won't have to ..
> 
> But.....
> 
> *I think YOU are the one being far too judgmental.*..Who are you to say they don't respect themselves? Not everyone is hung up on sexuality or displaying their bWhether you like it or not, its not illegal to do what they do...If that's the path they chose, then so be it...some have made fortunes off that industry...


Its not illegal but neither is adultery, both are damaging. If a girl has self respect she wouldn't feel the need to act in many ways like a prostitute. Giving her body for money.
Those of us who realise that porn isn't good for marriage are far from being 'hung up on sexuality', we just keep it between the two of us.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Adult film performers, and especially females, are a vulnerable group that is exposed to many health risks that are often cumulative. Occupational risks of the adult film industry that have been described in the literature have been limited to exposure to HIV and other STDs.7,15,16 In this study, we identified other serious health risks among adult film performers, including physical, mental, and social risks that were often severe and sometimes life-threatening. Female performers in particular were especially vulnerable to multiple negative health consequences, including drug addiction, mental health problems, financial hardship, physical trauma, and negative social interactions. Male performers were concerned with and mentioned health risks among female performers more often than they did their own needs. While this study did not set out initially to focus on female performers, it became clear from the initial interviews that women were a particularly vulnerable group. 









Pathways to Health Risk Exposure in Adult Film Performers


Despite being part of a large and legal industry in Los Angeles, little is known about adult film performers’ exposure to health risks and when and how these risks might occur. The objective was to identify exposure to physical, mental, and social ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> This is true. Same can be said for drugs, alcohol, food, etc…
> 
> Are you a human or an animal? A human can choose not to do the thing that feels good an an animal generally can’t.
> 
> ...


And we see people here all the time defending being turned off if their SO has gotten obese. It's a turn off and people should take care of themselves. So..... Are the porn defenders going to start saying they should still be attracted to the obese people because they aren't going hungry themselves? what do you care how much food the other person eats?


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> As can masturbation on it's own.


True. But then the mind might start wandering and having improper thoughts about people you know.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ccpowerslave said:


> I suppose they could. Hopefully not in the same room though. I’m not a lady but I think I’d probably find it more creepy than having a porn using husband to wake up in the middle of the night and have him spanking it next to me.
> 
> On the other hand if I woke up in the middle of the night and my wife was masturbating I would think that was hot (with or without porn). But she never would do that. I was surprised she masturbated at all and even then only very infrequently when I was away on business trips and I rarely travel for business.


I had an f buddy long time ago and we would both do that thing occasionally. I think women have to do that sometimes because they don't get off earlier during sex so they need to release. Can't speak for why he was doing it. But it wasn't just the one guy. I found it to be pretty common. I always thought it was out of politeness that you wouldn't wake the other person up.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> There’s probably going to be a generation gap on this issue in the upcoming years.
> 
> Those of us over 30 are going to react in horror because we have been raised with the social, political and religious narrative that women in porn are all sex trafficked or starving, desperate drug addicts or by necessity are victims of sex abuse and all come from broken homes etc.
> 
> ...


I cant see the relevance of whether the porn stars are willing or not in asking ourselves whether its good for us and for our marriages or not. I suspect that many who go into porn dont have a high opinion of themselves and will do what they can to get lots of money. Greed or in some countries need often comes before what is good or beneficial for them mentally and emotionally. 
I don't think we recoil in shock and horror at all, for me its more a real sadness that these people treat themselves this way, that they don't think they are worth better than this.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> True. But then the mind might start wandering and having improper thoughts about people you know.


Well how about we think about our spouse.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> So how does watching p*** make them feel attractive again?


It gives the illusion of a woman who finds him attractive, because she doesn't say no to his sexual release.
A man needs sexual release fairly regularly and, if he is not confident about approaching women or his wife, he will still need that release.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Look I don't object to porn because the woman no matter what people say are often vulnerable, abused or mental ill or depressed or that it tends to prey on young females in vulnerable states and of ages that aren't known for making the best choices. I just put up the articles from National institute of health and from the phsycology journal so we can dispense with the crap where men try to claim it isn't true or how would we know.

I don't think it should be illegal. Just like alcohol isn't illegal. Just like sugar isnt' illegal.

But I think it is perfectly fine for a partner to set boundaries. I would never date someone who smokes. I won't date someone who uses porn.

I think the men who use porn but would go crazy if their wife had their emotional needs being met by another man are hypocrits. But only their wife needs to worry about it.

In addition I think the men who are dismissive and say their wife doesn't care might be surprised. I don't know a single female who doesn't care. I know a few who don't put up a fight. So if most the females are here saying we care what are the odds your female cares and doesn't want to fight about it?


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Well how about we think about our spouse.


I'd not be comfortable with that idea.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ccpowerslave said:


> I pretty much know how she would react. She’s a night owl and she needs to sleep. In fact one of the things that I used to do that would piss her off is to initiate sex with her before 10am. She doesn’t like it so I stopped doing it and haven’t tried in a couple years.
> 
> Overall much better!


A person has to sleep sometime.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

jonty30 said:


> It gives the illusion of a woman who finds him attractive, because she doesn't say no to his sexual release.
> A man needs sexual release fairly regularly and, if he is not confident about approaching women or his wife, he will still need that release.


That's a sad man. To think that a TV or internet image..... well


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jonty30 said:


> It gives the illusion of a woman who finds him attractive, because she doesn't say no to his sexual release.
> A man needs sexual release fairly regularly and, if he is not confident about approaching women or his wife, he will still need that release.


Which is strictly a figment of his imagination and not a healthy one.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Which is strictly a figment of his imagination and not a healthy one.


And creating a relationship some have claimed don't exist


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> That's a sad man. To think that a TV or internet image..... well


If he cannot approach the wife or if he's a low value male...
It is sad, no question.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Which is strictly a figment of his imagination and not a healthy one.


It's not the best, I agree.


----------



## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> LIke the studies that have been conducted?
> Sex work and mental health can be thorny topics to navigate. Research has repeatedly shown a higher incidence of depression and other mental illness among sex workers when compared to other populations. A 2011 study that compared the mental health of female porn performers with that of other young women in California found that porn performers were significantly more likely to meet the criteria for depression than their peers who were not involved in sex work; a 2010 study of sex workers in Zurich found that “sex workers displayed high rates of mental disorders.”
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sure you will find that if they did studies on the guy down in the pit shoveling the shyt from septic tank clogs would also show that they are depressed....Heck, most of the attorneys I know are the most miserable people I know....taking more psych meds than anyone...You get the point....

You can't(I think) cherry pick this stuff based on morality....


----------



## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

Anastasia6 said:


> So if a man refuses to have a relationship with a girl whose body count is too high.... (which describes many of our male porn defenders). Isn't it hypocritical to support an industry that has women have sex with multiple people in an hour? Isn't it hypocritical to use that image to find your excitement?
> 
> You may be open to sex with a woman whose banged 8 guys the last hour but most are not. And there is a difference between open minded an wanting the sexual bond to only include two people. I feel I am open to most typical sexual encounters. I can go 3 times a day on the weekends, I like anal, will use toys, swings, butt plugs for me or him, I will do oral (thought not usually stand alone to completion BJ's). What do you feel my husband is missing by not looking at porn.
> 
> The other thought is there are lots of things people might want or desire but they aren't necessarily deprived if they don't get those things every time it pops into their head. a small child likes candy. A parent might give them candy once a day. Just because the child isn't overweight doesn't mean the child needs to have as much candy as they want when they want it.


I am having a hard time following your logic thought process, but I will try.

If a man refuses a lady based on the number of partners she has had. Well that relates to what I said about sexual compatibility before marriage. 

I don't think its hypocritical whatsoever to support the industry. There are people out there who are looking for a spouse that are into threesomes and the swinging lifestyle I am not one of them, but that doesn't change the fact that some desire this. 

I am not open to any lady besides my life. And it might seem odd and strange to some. But there are couples who deeply bond with each other while participating in the swingers lifestyle, threesomes, orgies, or whatever their sexual fetish is 

I am sorry, but I have no idea how to respond to the analogy of the child and candy. I can't figure out what you mean.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

hamadryad said:


> I'm sure you will find that if they did studies on the guy down in the pit shoveling the shyt from septic tank clogs would also show that they are depressed....Heck, most of the attorneys I know are the most miserable people I know....taking more psych meds than anyone...You get the point....
> 
> You can't(I think) cherry pick this stuff based on morality....


So the fact that many women who chose to have their bodies used for the entertainment of others suffer from both higher rates of mental illness and STD's is a moral point?

I think not. But you were the very one asking how a person could know that porn stars suffer mentally. You can know because they have spent years studying it.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> My issue with porn is two fold. First, I'd bet the vast majority of people getting off to it wouldn't like their daughter doing it and that double standard bothers me. Why is it OK to get off to someone else's daughter but others can't get off to your daughter?
> 
> The other issue, which I think it bigger, is that it's not good for the marital bond. I know many will say "but I still want my wife and it's just a release".
> 
> ...


I have a very decent sex life with my wife and I have been a frequent porn user, until just fairly recently. I gave it up for multiple reasons. One is, as you mentioned, having a daughter in the age range of some of those porn stars gives me a lot of pause and rethinking about the whole industry. 2nd, was having a physical impact on me. Finally, I decided I would rather invest that energy in my wife, since as we age our capacity can go down. 

I think men do bond through sex, but the emotional bond has to exist first. Without the emotional connection it is just empty biological release. Once the emotional bond is established I feel like the sexual connection strengthens it. That is how it works for me anyway and I don't think you will find a single guy here that says they bond from the sex alone. I bet they all have the emotional connection and then sex plays a big role in maintaining it. 

So yes, a guy can masturbate to porn and there won't be any bonding going on. It could impact his ability to satisfy wife sexually for other reasons of course, so you have to be aware of that possibility. No permanent, real life connection remains after a man masturbates to porn. That isn't the case with a wife seeking an emotional connection with another man. That will result in forming a more permanent bond between them. If the bond turns romantic it can then lead to sexual attraction which leads to a physical affair. That right there is THE big difference. Porn will not be leading to a man seeking out sex with that specific person, while seeking an emotional connection from the start is going to break the bond between the husband and wife.


----------



## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> Its not illegal but neither is adultery, both are damaging. If a girl has self respect she wouldn't feel the need to act in many ways like a prostitute. *Giving her body for money.*
> Those of us who realise that porn isn't good for marriage are far from being 'hung up on sexuality', we just keep it between the two of us.


I have tons of scars and healed broken bones to show for the ways I have had to earn money over the years...I won't even count the mental distress..

Does that not count as "giving up my body for money"


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm following through on my statement that I would start a new thread after a brief discussion on someone else's thread.
> 
> Porn. It's a touchy subject, and in this thread I'd like to keep the religious and moral objections out. Not that those aren't valid, but it's tough to have much of a back and forth because religious and moral objections are absolute in the eyes of those who hold them and you either agree or you don't.
> 
> ...


I don't think bonding through sex with your wife is the same as porn for one. I mean I've had a couple one night stands in my life with zero bonding. And if I watch Debbie doing Dallas, I don't feel any connection with Debbie. Debbie served her purpose much as a fly swatter serves its purpose. Or a cold drink on a hot day.

So bonding through sex would only occur if you already have an emotional bond with the woman. Simply having sex isn't enough.


----------



## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> So the fact that many women who chose to have their bodies used for the entertainment of others suffer from both higher rates of mental illness and STD's is a moral point?
> 
> I think not. But you were the very one asking how a person could know that porn stars suffer mentally. You can know because they have spent years studying it.


Dumb argument...

They would have to do "studies" on every single career path to make a comparison...I'll bet more people died on construction sites in one year than people ever died sucking a ****...Does that not count??

Or is everyone but porn stars jubilantly happy, physically unaffected, and mentally sound, when they do whatever it is they do for money?

I'm not advocating anything, btw, but you will have to do better than that to convince me that only porn stars suffer work related mental illness, and other physical problems that happen earning a living..


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> I am having a hard time following your logic thought process, but I will try.
> 
> If a man refuses a lady based on the number of partners she has had. Well that relates to what I said about sexual compatibility before marriage.
> 
> ...


Sorry I'm a lazy quoter. The candy wasn't directed at you. It was a rebuttal to the if the wife has had sex why would she care that a man then spanks to porn. My point is endless doesn't necessarily mean good. The idea that something that is so intimate with my spouse isn't effected when he uses porn. Is the same as why would it bother a spouse if an obese person eats more food as long as the one with the objection has eaten. And of course sex is the only thing that is supposed to only be singular in a marriage. So it is more reserved, more special but apparently not.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I have a very decent sex life with my wife and I have been a frequent porn user, until just fairly recently. I gave it up for multiple reasons. One is, as you mentioned, having a daughter in the age range of some of those porn stars gives me a lot of pause and rethinking about the whole industry. 2nd, was having a physical impact on me. Finally, I decided I would rather invest that energy in my wife, since as we age our capacity can go down.
> 
> I think men do bond through sex, but the emotional bond has to exist first. Without the emotional connection it is just empty biological release. Once the emotional bond is established I feel like the sexual connection strengthens it. That is how it works for me anyway and I don't think you will find a single guy here that says they bond from the sex alone. I bet they all have the emotional connection and then sex plays a big role in maintaining it.
> 
> So yes, a guy can masturbate to porn and there won't be any bonding going on. It could impact his ability to satisfy wife sexually for other reasons of course, so you have to be aware of that possibility. No permanent, real life connection remains after a man masturbates to porn. That isn't the case with a wife seeking an emotional connection with another man. That will result in forming a more permanent bond between them. If the bond turns romantic it can then lead to sexual attraction which leads to a physical affair. That right there is THE big difference. Porn will not be leading to a man seeking out sex with that specific person, while seeking an emotional connection from the start is going to break the bond between the husband and wife.


Maybe porn won't lead that person to look for the porn star. But how many ill conceived ideas have we seen on this site often times born out of porn. Such as wanting another man to have sex with their wife? and such. To say it doesn't effect the user ignores a lot of science as well as a lot of antcedotal evidence we see right here.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I cant see the relevance of whether the porn stars are willing or not in asking ourselves whether its good for us and for our marriages or not. I suspect that many who go into porn dont have a high opinion of themselves and will do what they can to get lots of money. Greed or in some countries need often comes before what is good or beneficial for them mentally and emotionally.
> I don't think we recoil in shock and horror at all, for me its more a real sadness that these people treat themselves this way, that they don't think they are worth better than this.


The question I was addressing was not whether it was good or bad for marriage.

The question was how what would people think of their daughter in porn. 

My response is the 1980 model of the porn industry is no longer relevant and not an applicable point of reference.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

jonty30 said:


> It's not the best, I agree.


Jonty do you think it is healthy for the male? Or do you think it would be healthier for the male to work on being higher value? 

The old work out, dress better stuff we see spouted here? Perhaps without the porn he wouldn't put up with the wives unapproval? 

Do you think he would have more energy to spend on not being satisfied with something that isn't satisfying?


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Anastasia6 said:


> Jonty do you think it is healthy for the male? Or do you think it would be healthier for the male to work on being higher value?
> 
> The old work out, dress better stuff we see spouted here? Perhaps without the porn he wouldn't put up with the wives unapproval?
> 
> Do you think he would have more energy to spend on not being satisfied with something that isn't satisfying?


Some men are lazy.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I have a very decent sex life with my wife and I have been a frequent porn user, until just fairly recently. I gave it up for multiple reasons. One is, as you mentioned, having a daughter in the age range of some of those porn stars gives me a lot of pause and rethinking about the whole industry. 2nd, was having a physical impact on me. Finally, I decided I would rather invest that energy in my wife, since as we age our capacity can go down.
> 
> I think men do bond through sex, but the emotional bond has to exist first. Without the emotional connection it is just empty biological release. Once the emotional bond is established I feel like the sexual connection strengthens it. That is how it works for me anyway and I don't think you will find a single guy here that says they bond from the sex alone. I bet they all have the emotional connection and then sex plays a big role in maintaining it.
> 
> So yes, a guy can masturbate to porn and there won't be any bonding going on. It could impact his ability to satisfy wife sexually for other reasons of course, so you have to be aware of that possibility. No permanent, real life connection remains after a man masturbates to porn. That isn't the case with a wife seeking an emotional connection with another man. That will result in forming a more permanent bond between them. If the bond turns romantic it can then lead to sexual attraction which leads to a physical affair. That right there is THE big difference. Porn will not be leading to a man seeking out sex with that specific person, while seeking an emotional connection from the start is going to break the bond between the husband and wife.


The trouble is that when you watch porn you fill your mind with countless images which are then there for ever. I would hate to have my mind full of this stuff and know that it can't be cancelled out.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> The question I was addressing was not whether it was good or bad for marriage.
> 
> The question was how what would people think of their daughter in porn.
> 
> My response is the 1980 model of the porn industry is no longer relevant and not an applicable point of reference.


The only real difference is it's more prolific and there is more sex trafficking with women being forced into sex work.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Jonty do you think it is healthy for the male? Or do you think it would be healthier for the male to work on being higher value?
> 
> The old work out, dress better stuff we see spouted here? Perhaps without the porn he wouldn't put up with the wives unapproval?
> 
> Do you think he would have more energy to spend on not being satisfied with something that isn't satisfying?


For males who are incapable of entering into a relationship, what would you suggest for them?
Prostitutes?

Not everybody, even under their best circumstances, are able to do what should be common for relationships.
If they aren't at the level where any female would find them attractive, what is their alternative?
They are still going to have sexual energy, but they have nowhere to release it. At least, not legally. 
I am not suggesting illegal means to release sexual energy.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> The trouble is that when you watch porn you fill your mind with countless images which are then there for ever. I would hate to have my mind full of this stuff and know that it can't be cancelled out.


I'd rather have my mind filled with beautiful women than countless spreadsheets I work on during the day that give me nightmares at night.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

jonty30 said:


> For males who are incapable of entering into a relationship, what would you suggest for them?
> Prostitutes?
> 
> Not everybody, even under their best circumstances, are able to do what should be common for relationships.
> ...


There are some realistic dolls out there. Women might be obsolete in a few years.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> There are some realistic dolls out there. Women might be obsolete in a few years.


In some places, you can marry them.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Well, this thread is rockin'.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> There are some realistic dolls out there. Women might be obsolete in a few years.


The good news about that is it will get the necrophiliacs out of the dating pool.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

jonty30 said:


> For males who are incapable of entering into a relationship, what would you suggest for them?
> Prostitutes?
> 
> Not everybody, even under their best circumstances, are able to do what should be common for relationships.
> ...


How do you suppose men managed for previous centuries?


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

jonty30 said:


> In some places, you can marry them.


Crazy mad world.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

hamadryad said:


> Dumb argument...
> 
> They would have to do "studies" on every single career path to make a comparison...I'll bet more people died on construction sites in one year than people ever died sucking a ****...Does that not count??
> 
> ...


Yeah cops get shot, firefighters get burned up, linemen get electrocuted, road construction men get hit by cars, roofers fall off buildings, ditch diggers get buried alive, soldiers get their legs blown off by IEDs etc etc. I can go on but you get the point. 

One of the things we need to keep in mind is for a young, reasonably attractive woman, the sex industry is going to provide the most money the quickest and the easiest. 

I don’t know what all goes on in Bangkok and Jakarta, but in America, the vast vast majority of porn workers are voluntary and consenting. 

They are free to pick beets for 12 hours a day in the 95 degree sun with the men if they want and they are free to stand at a conveyer belt gutting hogs in a meat packing plant with the men if they want.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> It could impact his ability to satisfy wife sexually for other reasons of course, so you have to be aware of that possibility.


It is one of many including (in my case) drinking and working out too hard.

I will not drink if I think my wife is likely to have sex later because I know she doesn’t like it. Sex > drinking. Sex is also > porn by a long way.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> How do you suppose men managed for previous centuries?


We could also live in caves and bang rocks together but technology has improved our lives.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> The good news about that is it will get the necrophiliacs out of the dating pool.


I think honestly that if men who would prefer a sex doll could have one (and "marry" it if they wanted to) would weed out a lot of weirdos from the dating pool. The kind of man who prefers a sex doll doesn't want a relationship with a person, he wants a cook, housekeeper and sex-on-demand. We as women aren't really losing anything there.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> How do you suppose men managed for previous centuries?


Prostitutes or masturbation.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

jonty30 said:


> Prostitutes.


Don't forget war.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> A person has to sleep sometime.


No she’s completely right, I was a stupid asshole!


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

leftfield said:


> Don't forget war.


In Northern Europe, it was legal to steal women. If you got them into your home before they could stop you, she was your wife.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> The only real difference is it's more prolific and there is more sex trafficking with women being forced into sex work.


It’s more prolific because it’s easier to produce and easier for the end user to access. The common person can now create and produce their own content and anyone can just pull it up on their phone. Which means it’s not something that’s ever going away. It’s something we have to learn to manage and deal with. 

The trafficking is another issue. God only knows what goes on in places like Malaysia, Thailand, Eastern Europe, Columbia etc. 

In America it’s cheaper and easier to place an add for models on a website and pick from the line up and write out a check than it is to snatch someone off the street.

And in the last several years, more and more people are simply making their own and self-producing it.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> It’s more prolific because it’s easier to produce and easier for the end user to access. The common person can now create and produce their own content and anyone can just pull it up on their phone. Which means it’s not something that’s ever going away. It’s something we have to learn to manage and deal with.
> 
> The trafficking is another issue. God only knows what goes on in places like Malaysia, Thailand, Eastern Europe, Columbia etc.
> 
> ...


It should be regulated to minimize harm.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ccpowerslave said:


> No she’s completely right, I was a stupid asshole!


Everyone has their biological clock. I like morning sex but only if I can be a starfish because I don't want to fully wake up for it. That's my best sleeping time.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> It’s more prolific because it’s easier to produce and easier for the end user to access. The common person can now create and produce their own content and anyone can just pull it up on their phone. Which means it’s not something that’s ever going away. It’s something we have to learn to manage and deal with.
> 
> The trafficking is another issue. God only knows what goes on in places like Malaysia, Thailand, Eastern Europe, Columbia etc.
> 
> ...


Making their own and not telling the woman a lot of times and there's been a lot of legal cases about that.


----------



## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Diana7 said:


> How do you suppose men managed for previous centuries?


Mistresses, Gentlemen's clubs, street walkers, dirty photos, erotic art, dirty sketches, multiple wives, war brides, the list goes on.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> The other issue, which I think it bigger, is that it's not good for the marital bond. I know many will say "but I still want my wife and it's just a release".
> 
> To me that argument is shaky. We are told that men bond through sex. Ok. So how can it be that you can use sexual energy on porn and not release bonding chemicals? That energy isn't spent on your marriage.


I'm only going to address this bit for now.

I think your premise here is mostly or completely false. I do not think it is remotely possible to "bond" with images on a screen, so IMO porn would only be a release of sexual tension. Now, if that leads to _neglecting _one's spouse sexually because of or in favor of porn, then that's a problem and potentially an obsession. The reasons why one would choose porn over sex with your spouse have huge variability. The neglect would be bad for the marital bond, but the porn isn't creating an alternative bond.


----------



## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> The trouble is that when you watch porn you fill your mind with countless images which are then there for ever. I would hate to have my mind full of this stuff and know that it can't be cancelled out.


[QUOTE="oldshirt, post: 20478544, member: 284017

One of the things we need to keep in mind is for a young, reasonably attractive woman, the sex industry is going to provide the most money the quickest and the easiest. 

[/QUOTE]

I am calling you out on this. This is absolutely disgusting for you to say and completely uncalled for. 

You are basically saying that younger womens best shot at making a decent living is to spread their legs in front of the camera? That is absolutely the most sexist and degrading thing I think I have read on this site.

There are many many young women with a LOT of work ethic and drive that become very successful. At the hospital I work for, we have lots of ladies in their early 20s that have the most amazing work ethic and a very hungry drive to move up and make more money and establish themselves at the same time.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

jonty30 said:


> It should be regulated to minimize harm.


It IS regulated to a degree.

I don’t know current porn laws in every state, but models have to 18 and sign contracts and there are regulations on how it’s distributed and who can access etc.

I don’t know anything about current laws but in California back in the 90s, porn models in the commercial industry had to keep a log book (kinda like truckers) that detailed who they performed with a had to have STI/HIV testing etc. 

There are laws and regulations in place. 

There have been concerted efforts to shut down the industry, but the porn wars were lost when the home video market came out and people could go down to the corner video store and rent Debbie Does Dallas and watch it in the privacy of their own home. 

Then when Al Gore invented the Internet, it was all over.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> It IS regulated to a degree.
> 
> I don’t know current porn laws in every state, but models have to 18 and sign contracts and there are regulations on how it’s distributed and who can access etc.
> 
> ...


Debbie must look pretty rough after all these years and all those men...


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

@ThatDarnGuy! regarding your response to @oldshirt (something is messed up with the way you post was quoted)

I don't think that was the point of his post. He is saying in the case of a woman in a desperate situation the porn industry is going to offer chunks of money a lot faster than getting a hostess job or something like that. That is the attraction for a lot of women in the industry. They make in a couple of hours what would take them 3 weeks to make in a normal job.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> [QUOTE="oldshirt, post: 20478544, member: 284017
> 
> One of the things we need to keep in mind is for a young, reasonably attractive woman, the sex industry is going to provide the most money the quickest and the easiest.


I am calling you out on this. This is absolutely disgusting for you to say and completely uncalled for. 

You are basically saying that younger womens best shot at making a decent living is to spread their legs in front of the camera? That is absolutely the most sexist and degrading thing I think I have read on this site.

There are many many young women with a LOT of work ethic and drive that become very successful. At the hospital I work for, we have lots of ladies in their early 20s that have the most amazing work ethic and a very hungry drive to move up and make more money and establish themselves at the same time.
[/QUOTE]

Don’t blame me, blame the consumer and the economy. I’m just stating fact. 

I’m a 58 year old educated, medical professional that works in a hospital myself.

I don’t make half the money in a week that an uneducated young woman can make in a day in porn.

I don’t even make in a 12 hour day battling Covid than what stripper can make on THURSDAY night let alone a good Saturday night. 

That may be morally offensive, but that is the economics of it.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> There are many many young women with a LOT of work ethic and drive that become very successful. At the hospital I work for, we have lots of ladies in their early 20s that have the most amazing work ethic and a very hungry drive to move up and make more money and establish themselves at the same time.


As a former (😢) young, relatively attractive woman who did just fine in her 20s and 30s without being a hooker, thank you for this defense. The idea that a woman's primary value is between her legs instead of between her ears is pretty insulting.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> @ThatDarnGuy! regarding your response to @oldshirt (something is messed up with the way you post was quoted)
> 
> I don't think that was the point of his post. He is saying in the case of a woman in a desperate situation the porn industry is going to offer chunks of money a lot faster than getting a hostess job or something like that. That is the attraction for a lot of women in the industry. They make in a couple of hours what would take them 3 weeks to make in a normal job.


I wasn’t even addressing the “desperate” aspect.

I’m just stating economic fact. 

In fact I’m not sure there really is a legal occupation that will pay an uneducated, untrained, noncredentialed 18 year old female what modeling/porn will.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> As a former (😢) young, relatively attractive woman who did just fine in her 20s and 30s without being a hooker, thank you for this defense. The idea that a woman's primary value is between her legs instead of between her ears is pretty insulting.


I’m not saying that a young woman can’t do fine outside the sex industry. Obviously millions and millions do.

I’m saying it is the some of the most money they can make the quickest and easiest. 

Obviously the vast majority of young women are not going to go into sex work. 

But they’re going to make less and are going to have to get education/training and develop marketable job skills.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

happyhusband0005 said:


> @ThatDarnGuy! regarding your response to @oldshirt (something is messed up with the way you post was quoted)
> 
> I don't think that was the point of his post. He is saying in the case of a woman in a desperate situation the porn industry is going to offer chunks of money a lot faster than getting a hostess job or something like that. That is the attraction for a lot of women in the industry. They make in a couple of hours what would take them 3 weeks to make in a normal job.


Yea I don't think it was insulting. Strippers make that choice all the time either to work at Waffle House for min wage or taking their cloths off an hour a night and making 6 figures. Some people just don't have a lot of opportunity through circumstances or poor decisions.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not saying that a young woman can’t do fine outside the sex industry. Obviously millions and millions do.
> 
> I’m saying it is the some of the most money they can make the quickest and easiest.
> 
> ...


Most of their money is going to pimps and dope. They get stuck. Sure there are some that get in it and get out of it, but they groom those strippers just like pimps groom other sex workers. They all have the same spiel.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

jonty30 said:


> For males who are incapable of entering into a relationship, what would you suggest for them?
> Prostitutes?
> 
> Not everybody, even under their best circumstances, are able to do what should be common for relationships.
> ...


This thread was dealing with sexual energy and porn in a relationship. So I was addressing the relationship side of it.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not saying that a young woman can’t do fine outside the sex industry. Obviously millions and millions do.
> 
> I’m saying it is the some of the most money they can make the quickest and easiest.
> 
> ...



It doesn’t even have to be actual sexually explicit porn. 

There are chicks making thousands of dollars a month selling pictures of their feet and selling their dirty underwear etc.

There was even a gal making thousands of dollars selling little bottles of her bath water 🤮 

You don’t make that kind of money for that little effort stocking shelves and directing the customer to the coffee filters at Wal Mart.


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Well, this thread is rockin'.


Just wait until CD shows up!


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Yea I don't think it was insulting. Strippers make that choice all the time either to work at Waffle House for min wage or taking their cloths off an hour a night and making 6 figures. Some people just don't have a lot of opportunity through circumstances or poor decisions.


Ok but that’s the thing, if you can make 6 figures with no investment other than some lingerie and high heels, is it really a bad decision and is it really only desperate circumstances that will lead someone to do that?


----------



## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

oldshirt said:


> I wasn’t even addressing the “desperate” aspect.
> 
> I’m just stating economic fact.
> 
> In fact I’m not sure there really is a legal occupation that will pay an uneducated, untrained, noncredentialed 18 year old female what modeling/porn will.


There actually are not many 18 year olds that have anything beyond a high school diploma. 

But a career in porn doesn't pay what you might think. Its also a very short career. As someone else stated. The days of big producers giving out big contracts is phasing out. Most everything is now homemade stuff and individuals asking for money in exchange for showing content. The big producers like Vivid Entertainment have died alongside Playboy magazine. 

But at 18/19 its fairly easy to go through a quick program to become a certified CNA. At that age, you probably will be looked at as just an immature older teenager in a hospital by the nursing staff. I know because I see it. But if you show dedication and and a work ethic, you can move up quickly. 

Go to nursing school and become a registered nurse or a practitioner by the time you are 23/24 and you will see the money rolling in without having to call Bubba the bouncer to protect you from some obnoxious drunk trying to grab you.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Most of their money is going to pimps and dope. They get stuck. Sure there are some that get in it and get out of it, but they groom those strippers just like pimps groom other sex workers. They all have the same spiel.


But you’re assuming the old industry model. 

People can choose to not take drugs and if they don’t take drugs, they won’t be addicted to drugs.

And while pimps and ho’s are always going to be out there unfortunately, a lot of the porn industry is shifting to the individual content creator and self production. 

Today’s “pimp” is whatever it is OnlyFans and the like are charging to use their platforms. 

A chick can sell pictures of her feet or her bath water or whatever on OnlyFans and her only expense is whatever OnlyFans charges.


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

A lot of talk has been made about the typical porn we think of and the potential for exploitation of women. What about the myriad amount of porn that is done TOGETHER by consenting adults? i.e. couples who shoot videos of themselves and post it. It is a HUGE part of the porn industry and is anyone really getting exploited? A few sites I have seen, the WIVES of the couples are the ones doing the posting. And these are mature couples in their 50s and older.

@Personal even mentioned he and his wife have done it

Does that change anyone's opinions? Probably not but that seems to be different than the stereotypical porn being discussed.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> There actually are not many 18 year olds that have anything beyond a high school diploma.
> 
> But a career in porn doesn't pay what you might think. Its also a very short career. As someone else stated. The days of big producers giving out big contracts is phasing out. Most everything is now homemade stuff and individuals asking for money in exchange for showing content. The big producers like Vivid Entertainment have died alongside Playboy magazine.
> 
> ...


I know. 

But that doesn’t change anything I said.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> A lot of talk has been made about the typical porn we think of and the potential for exploitation of women. What about the myriad amount of porn that is done TOGETHER by consenting adults? i.e. couples who shoot videos of themselves and post it. It is a HUGE part of the porn industry and is anyone really getting exploited? A few sites I have seen, the WIVES of the couples are the ones doing the posting. And these are mature couples in their 50s and older.
> 
> @Personal even mentioned he and his wife have done it
> 
> Does that change anyone's opinions? Probably not but that seems to be different than the stereotypical porn being discussed.


As I said earlier, most of your most ardent anti porn crusaders are basing their judgement on the old 1970/80s industry model.

Today’s “pornographers” are just as likely to be Ron and Christine down the street.


----------



## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

oldshirt said:


> Ok but that’s the thing, if you can make 6 figures with no investment other than some lingerie and high heels, is it really a bad decision and is it really only desperate circumstances that will lead someone to do that?


Not many get to this level. Its like professional sports. Many kids dream of making it big and only a fraction make it.

I am all for a lady being in the adult industry if that's what she wants. But in reality, don't expect to become rich and set for life. And certainly do not do it because you don't think you have the talent for anything else.

My wife has a friend who does web cam shows. She is by no means unattractive and has been doing it for a few years. She makes ok money, but nothing like she imagined.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Most of their money is going to pimps and dope. They get stuck. Sure there are some that get in it and get out of it, but they groom those strippers just like pimps groom other sex workers. They all have the same spiel.


What about all those stories of strippers going to college. Say it ain't so!


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> Not many get to this level. Its like professional sports. Many kids dream of making it big and only a fraction make it.
> 
> I am all for a lady being in the adult industry if that's what she wants. But in reality, don't expect to become rich and set for life. And certainly do not do it because you don't think you have the talent for anything else.
> 
> My wife has a friend who does web cam shows. She is by no means unattractive and has been doing it for a few years. She makes ok money, but nothing like she imagined.


It’s a business, so those with the most business acumen are going to be the most successful.

Where I live there was a local news story a few years ago about a female lawyer that works for a local law firm. 

Every quarter she would take a week of vacay and go to Nevada to work in one of the legal brothels. 

She would make more in that week than she did in a month at the law firm. 

There is a dollar to be made but it can’t be going up their nose and it takes some business sense and financial planning etc.

If it’s young women being flakey and nutty and partying it all away, they’re not going to have much to show for it at the end of the day. 

If they’re smart and disciplined and treat it like a business, there is a dollar to be made.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> But you’re assuming the old industry model.
> 
> People can choose to not take drugs and if they don’t take drugs, they won’t be addicted to drugs.
> 
> ...


Well the old model still exists out there if someone wants real sex with a sex worker. That other stuff is for voyeurs.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> What about all those stories of strippers going to college. Say it ain't so!


Yeah, how else are all these nurses gonna pay for nursing school LOL


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> What about all those stories of strippers going to college. Say it ain't so!


I think some of them strip to get through college. I know there were prostitutes in my dorm. It's old as time. In the internet age I don't know how much good it's going to do to have your name plastered all over the internet as a sex worker if you're going for a high degree of any type.

They're generally stupid young girls whose brains are not fully formed to even understand the consequences.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> Not many get to this level. Its like professional sports. Many kids dream of making it big and only a fraction make it.
> 
> I am all for a lady being in the adult industry if that's what she wants. But in reality, don't expect to become rich and set for life. And certainly do not do it because you don't think you have the talent for anything else.
> 
> My wife has a friend who does web cam shows. She is by no means unattractive and has been doing it for a few years. She makes ok money, but nothing like she imagined.


The Webcam market got saturated.

I met a very beautiful prostitute once (don't ask how) but she really was like model caliber. She tried meeting ends working at a restaurant but couldn't support her kid with those wages. So she did what she had to do. Now she is CEO of a fortune 500 company (ok I made that last part up).


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Yeah, how else are all these nurses gonna pay for nursing school LOL


I shouldn’t joke. I used to work with an actual physician that was a nurse prior to going to med school.

She literally did strip while she was in nursing school.

She was 40some years old when I worked with her and still quite good looking. 

I’m sure she was making more as a doctor but I bet my last dollar she took a big pay cut when she started working her nursing job.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Seems like this thread has gone side ways trying to discuss the moral aspect for the women involved. That doesn't change the harm to the relationship.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Anyway... so dudes say that they want sex with their wives to "bond" and yet are having sex with hookers (since apparently that's the only lucrative job a young woman is smart enough to get, otherwise they're picking potatoes in a field or something  ) or watching porn and saying those things aren't bonding. Let's talk about that.


----------



## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Anyway... so dudes say that they want sex with their wives to "bond" and yet are having sex with hookers (since apparently that's the only lucrative job a young woman is smart enough to get, otherwise they're picking potatoes in a field or something  ) or watching porn and saying those things aren't bonding. Let's talk about that.


Not directed at you lol...... but light is faster than sound and explains why some people appear bright until you hear them speak 🤔


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Anyway... so dudes say that they want sex with their wives to "bond" and yet are having sex with hookers (since apparently that's the only lucrative job a young woman is smart enough to get, otherwise they're picking potatoes in a field or something  ) or watching porn and saying those things aren't bonding. Let's talk about that.


That's already been addressed. Men bond through sex if there is already an emotional connection. Banging some rando or watching a rando bang someone isn't bonding.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> I am calling you out on this. This is absolutely disgusting for you to say and completely uncalled for.
> 
> You are basically saying that younger womens best shot at making a decent living is to spread their legs in front of the camera? That is absolutely the most sexist and degrading thing I think I have read on this site.


We also need to keep things in historical perspective.

It’s only been in the last 50 years or so that we’ve expected women to be out in the regular workforce.

Prior to that basically all women survived through their sexuality.

But instead of calling their supporters jons, they were called husbands.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> That's already been addressed. Men bond through sex if there is already an emotional connection. Banging some rando or watching a rando bang someone isn't bonding.


Would it be a threadjack if we veered away from porn and moved into things like swinging/orgies/swapping/threesomes? Or should that be a whole new thread? It's still in the vein of expending sexual energy but more closely touches that whole "bonding" question. Thoughts?


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> Seems like this thread has gone side ways trying to discuss the moral aspect for the women involved. That doesn't change the harm to the relationship.


I haven’t got to that part yet. 

@lifeistooshort posed a lot of issues and asked a lot of questions. It’s gonna take a few more pages to get that.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Would it be a threadjack if we veered away from porn and moved into things like swinging/orgies/swapping/threesomes? Or should that be a whole new thread? It's still in the vein of expending sexual energy but more closely touches that whole "bonding" question. Thoughts?


Oh yeah, now you’re talking my language!

Start that thread!!! 😃


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Oh yeah, now you’re talking my language!
> 
> Start that thread!!! 😃


NOPE. I have WAY too many feelings about it to discuss that. But I think it would a fun and interesting thread and would also be more up your alley than this porn thing. Plus I really don't like your post about women needing to sell their bodies to make money. I was a hot chick, I made good money, and I didn't have to sell myself, on an ad-hoc or a contract basis. Maybe it's just in the last 50 years that we can do that, but we can do it now, and that's just not a nice thing to say. So let's change the subject.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I wasn’t even addressing the “desperate” aspect.
> 
> I’m just stating economic fact.
> 
> In fact I’m not sure there really is a legal occupation that will pay an uneducated, untrained, noncredentialed 18 year old female what modeling/porn will.


Right desperate or not it's just easy money. Some people want easy money. I plan on doing grandpa porn when I'm in my 80s, just for then fun though hopefully I don't need the money.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> NOPE. I have WAY too many feelings about it to discuss that. But I think it would a fun and interesting thread and would also be more up your alley than this porn thing. Plus I really don't like your post about women needing to sell their bodies to make money. I was a hot chick, I made good money, and I didn't have to sell myself, on an ad-hoc or a contract basis. Maybe it's just in the last 50 years that we can do that, but we can do it now, and that's just not a nice thing to say. So let's change the subject.


I did not say anything about NEED. 

This is ‘Merica and people can do whatever they want and people can find ways to succeed in countless ways with their own creativity, hard work and smarts. 

A woman can pursue whatever she wants and she can be successful with dedication and hard work and creativity etc etc.

What I said was for an uneducated young women without any other marketable job skills, sex work will be the most money in shortest amount of time and effort.

You may find that fact troubling and distasteful, but it’s simply economic fact. 

Take 2 18 year olds with high school diplomas and no other job skills, one goes to work for McDonalds and one goes to work in the porn industry.

In 3 months, which one has made more money??


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Right desperate or not it's just easy money. Some people want easy money. I plan on doing grandpa porn when I'm in my 80s, just for then fun though hopefully I don't need the money.


It's not easy money.. maybe being a webcam girl is. But all that stuff usually ties into prostitution and that is not easy.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Would it be a threadjack if we veered away from porn and moved into things like swinging/orgies/swapping/threesomes? Or should that be a whole new thread? It's still in the vein of expending sexual energy but more closely touches that whole "bonding" question. Thoughts?


Swinging/orgies/swapping/threesomes, oh my. Yes you are definitely expending sexual energy, if you're doing it as a couple together your expending the sexual energy together. Some people experience some kind of bonding in these encounters others don't. I never did when we use to do it but we were never with the same women more than once except for one women we hooked up with a couple times. For me it was bonding with my wife not the other woman. 

For some those kinds of experiences are like porn, a sexual experience detached from the reality of your normal life. Some people are involved in the lifestyle specifically to form bonds with other people and develop social and sexual relationships. Some people go into thinking they won't form any bonds then do and it kills their marriage. It's really all over the place there is no typical in that world.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Right desperate or not it's just easy money. Some people want easy money. I plan on doing grandpa porn when I'm in my 80s, just for then fun though hopefully I don't need the money.


There’s such a thing as grandpa porn?????

I may have just found my next career path! 😆


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> oldshirt said:
> 
> 
> > There’s such a thing as grandpa porn?????
> ...


The problem is whether I’d have to travel to where the filming would take place and whether I’d get paid enough to cover gas money.

I wonder if anyone is making grandpa porn within walking distance of my house?


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I wonder if anyone is making grandpa porn within walking distance of my house?


Just get a webcam. You can make as much money as an attractive women under the age of 25.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Just get a webcam. You can make as much money as an attractive women under the age of 25.


I might get paid a dollar to turn the camera off lol.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Anyway... so dudes say that they want sex with their wives to "bond" and yet are having sex with hookers (since apparently that's the only lucrative job a young woman is smart enough to get, otherwise they're picking potatoes in a field or something  ) or watching porn and saying those things aren't bonding. Let's talk about that.


Because you don't necessarily bond with someone you have no interest in bonding with. How would one even bond with porn, if we can figure out the mechanics of that we can make a movie. I think the bigger risk is someone getting to obsessed with porn and that damaging the bond they have with their spouse.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Just get a webcam. You can make as much money as an attractive women under the age of 25.


So ageist, Older women can clean up too. Seems to be a trend of younger guys liking the 50+ ladies lately. Just sayin if inflation gets to whacky there are options for all ages. LOL


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> The problem is whether I’d have to travel to where the filming would take place and whether I’d get paid enough to cover gas money.
> 
> I wonder if anyone is making grandpa porn within walking distance of my house?


Funny story. Back when we were active in the lifestyle we use to use adult friend finder. There was a section of live member webcams. Every now and then this older couple from our area would be on cam usually just half naked chatting with viewers. One day I go into the bank where I do most of my business banking and the woman who I had seen on cam is the new branch manager.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Lots of odd logic and straw man arguments in the 9 pages and counting. Isn't your wife technically someone else's daughter, granddaughter, sister, niece, cousin etc? And if the two of you decide to self produce privately, only viewed by you, isn't that still porn? And if it's leaked, and others see it wouldn't that make you porn stars?

But is porn limited to a photo and video medium? If the mental images of your wife gets you going is that porn? Technically it's not her it's a mental image and a memory. Does her being your wife somehow negate her being someone else's daughter? And if you're reliving old memories are you cheating on her with her younger self?

What if you're using porn as a tool? Wanna get better at fixing your car learn from mechanics. Wanna get better at growing your own food, see a farmer... Why is watching a video about sex or listening to a pornstar on podcast or reading a blog the one time you're not supposed to seek out an expert? Case in point... learning to give better oral to your wife when you really don't have experience in that area. In that example, realistic lesbian porn, interviews, tutorials, they make them and they do help! Hell for that matter the "positions to last longer" and "achieving multiple O's" might be good. Remember the Karma Sutra was written long before pornhub in got a domain.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

As to group activities, groups, and group festivals marking important natural milestones predates monogamy by a very very long time. The bunny wrapping an egg has nothing to do with someone being reborn but the symbolism of rebirth and fertility have always welcomed in the new Spring...

For the handful of people who have experienced an outdoor orgy the sights and sounds are overwhelming even before your brain floods with pheromones. Even if the only person you see and touch is your wife, the sexual tension is insane and the release is a religious experience.

I find it fascinating that so many will quickly cling to morals and religion while freely admitting they've never set foot outside that comfort zone.

Also for the record all porn stars are sex workers but not all sex workers are porn stars. There is significant difference between legal porn star, legal escort, cam girl, illegally filmed/leaked amateur sex, and human trafficking. Please at least have the decency to admit that. Fun question/fact... how many professional porn stars have you met? I've met 1. I didn't know at the time she was a porn star. We talked music for half an hour. Very sweet young lady.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

BTW I would totally crank one out to porn of my wife but I don’t want those pictures to exist. Is this hypocritical? 🤔


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

crashdawg said:


> Fun question/fact... how many professional porn stars have you met?


I’ve had sex with an amateur gal that has several videos out. Does that count?


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

crashdawg said:


> As to group activities, groups, and group festivals marking important natural milestones predates monogamy by a very very long time. The bunny wrapping an egg has nothing to do with someone being reborn but the symbolism of rebirth and fertility have always welcomed in the new Spring...
> 
> For the handful of people who have experienced an outdoor orgy the sights and sounds are overwhelming even before your brain floods with pheromones. Even if the only person you see and touch is your wife, the sexual tension is insane and the release is a religious experience.
> 
> ...


I used to have an old Polaroid from around 1990 with a famous female porn star (still active today too) sitting on my lap nude. (she was nude not me) Ahhh college days and strip clubs!


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

ccpowerslave said:


> BTW I would totally crank one out to porn of my wife but I don’t want those pictures to exist. Is this hypocritical? 🤔


And this is the beating heart that demolishes both arguments. If it's your wife is it really porn and if it's someone else's sister or daughter does that still matter? Where is that line drawn? I'm sure you're turned on but I'm also sure the in-laws wouldn't want to see, or hear, or know... For that matter if there's no physical medium and it's only your thoughts is it still porn?

I'm waiting for the gas light label as the other side desperately tries to stem this uncomfortable tide...


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> I’ve had sex with an amateur gal that has several videos out. Does that count?


If I didn't even know her profession and honestly didn't care does it still count? Finding out didn't change my impression. She used it to graduate debt free and she's a doctor now. So not only was she an outlier by the standards expressed in this thread, she exploited the system AND she's now a major contributor to society. Does ones past truly define us?


----------



## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> It’s more prolific because it’s easier to produce and easier for the end user to access. The common person can now create and produce their own content and anyone can just pull it up on their phone. Which means it’s not something that’s ever going away. It’s something we have to learn to manage and deal with.
> 
> The trafficking is another issue. God only knows what goes on in places like Malaysia, Thailand, Eastern Europe, Columbia etc.
> 
> ...


don't forget about sites like only fans or the dozens like Chaturbate where you only need to turn your camera on to make money. Many of these women perform solo or with their real life partners and don't suffer physical or mental abuse.

The modern era of internet porn is completely changing the industry.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

E


FloridaGuy1 said:


> I used to have an old Polaroid from around 1990 with a famous female porn star (still active today too) sitting on my lap nude. (she was nude not me) Ahhh college days and strip clubs!


It was a strip club, she's naked... ok... if it was a golf course and she was dressed appropriately in golfing attire would her profession matter?

I assume you went to said club seeking said star but sites like OnlyFans and economic depression means that porn star might be your neighbor, might be the man or woman bagging your groceries or getting your Starbucks order...

The stigma is most certainly there but it causes people to short circuit when put in that context.


----------



## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

How much $ did "50 shades of grey" make between the book and the movies? How about the Harlequin novels? Billions of $$.

Sounds like a lot of "Emotional energy" being focused somewhere besides one's husband or significant other. Isn't watching a movie or reading books like these a "release"?


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

sideways said:


> How much $ did "50 shades of grey" make between the book and the movies? How about the Harlequin novels? Billions of $$.
> 
> Sounds like a lot of "Emotional energy" being focused somewhere besides one's husband or significant other. Isn't watching a movie or reading books like these a "release"?


I'm confused by the emotional energy argument. What exactly is the root of the complaint? Is it the physical act of the release? Is it the energy expended in the release? Is it that it's not in the presence of a partner? Is it jealousy that they're not able to arouse said partner to this level? I just don't get it...

I have some hobbies. My wife has some hobbies. Some things we do as a couple, some things are on our own. Porn isn't a hobby, it's a useful tool and an opportunity to expand your knowledge base. If you're honestly jealous that your partner is aroused by something, learn what it is, and learn how to do it better. Become something that drives them crazy.


----------



## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

I said this before and I'll say it again. I used to love porn, who doesn't? Watching people **** is exciting. But I started doing some research and what it does to our brains and grey matter is not good. I also see how it hurts partners. My wife gets very insecure and feels inadequate if I watch porn. Is that worth it? No. I also found it to be very addicting. I could easily waste hours a night watching porn videos.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> There’s probably going to be a generation gap on this issue in the upcoming years.
> 
> Those of us over 30 are going to react in horror because we have been raised with the social, political and religious narrative that women in porn are all sex trafficked or starving, desperate drug addicts or by necessity are victims of sex abuse and all come from broken homes etc.
> 
> ...


Except within the past year Pornhub removed almost half of their content in fear of criminal prosecution.

So it’s rotten even this year. It’s probably a lot of guys filming their girlfriends without their consent but some of it was apparently actual crimes taking place on video. Some of the girls stories against Pornhub were awful.

So yeah boys, if you’ve been to Pornhub you may have witnessed actual crimes occurring against someone daughter, sister, or wife. 😞


----------



## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

What about watching your own homemade porn? We made a bunch of videos for reddit and watch them together now.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

crashdawg said:


> I'm confused by the emotional energy argument. What exactly is the root of the complaint? Is it the physical act of the release? Is it the energy expended in the release? Is it that it's not in the presence of a partner? Is it jealousy that they're not able to arouse said partner to this level? I just don't get it...
> 
> I have some hobbies. My wife has some hobbies. Some things we do as a couple, some things are on our own. Porn isn't a hobby, it's a useful tool and an opportunity to expand your knowledge base. If you're honestly jealous that your partner is aroused by something, learn what it is, and learn how to do it better. Become something that drives them crazy.


I can understand the emotional energy argument if one partner is expending their energies on their own and not taking care of the partner because of it. That IMHO is a legitimate grievance. I will even go so far as to say if one is taking care of their own needs to the point of rejecting and denying their partner - I see that in same light as an actual affair because for all practical purposes, it is the same for the rejected party. 

But I also agree with and have put into practice your counter argument. I have found porn to be a positive adjunct to sex life with a number of romantic partners over the course of my life. 

It's a myth and fallacy that women don't like porn and do not respond to it. It's a matter of the context and finding the content they like as an individual. Think like your partner and it is not hard to find that content at all. 

When someone says, I don't like porn....... Does that mean that out of the 5,876,254,274,875,863 video clips available out there, there isn't a single one that gets your motor running??? Yeah right. 

If it's something a couple explores together, engages in together and explores each other's interests and kinks etc together, how is it any worse than any other sexual adjunct like scented candles, massage oils, vibrators, toys, lingerie, blind folds etc? 

Context my friends, context. 

Now I understand that some people have deep seated ideological and theological oppositions to anything not blessed by the Vatican or the Koran or whatever. Those people are not going to be with me in the first place nor I with them so it's not anything either of us have to worry about.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

thunderchad said:


> I said this before and I'll say it again. I used to love porn, who doesn't? Watching people **** is exciting. But I started doing some research and what it does to our brains and grey matter is not good. I also see how it hurts partners. My wife gets very insecure and feels inadequate if I watch porn. Is that worth it? No. I also found it to be very addicting. I could easily waste hours a night watching porn videos.


Maybe this is the disconnect. I don't see it as mindless entertainment I see it as a tool, same as a YouTube video on how to work on my car, or an in person tutorial on how the craps table works.

I actually spent an hour watching a craps table in Vegas. I made the pit boss nervous. When he realized I was more interested in how it works he directed me to the clinic times. I attended the next morning, saw him the next night at the table... never spent a penny at the table (I was there on work conference). In the end he comped me tickets because I was curious and I was honest. Precisely 1 month later I won several thousand dollars for a charity event at a craps table. I still don't gamble.

Porn in that context has allowed me to deliver above and beyond on the needs and desires of my wife. I understand what arouses her, I understand the positions, the methods, the rhythms etc. It has given me the "how to"... but that's because I sought out those elements... not the raunchy jollies and mindless bs.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

CatholicDad said:


> Except within the past year Pornhub removed almost half of their content in fear of criminal prosecution.
> 
> So it’s rotten even this year. It’s probably a lot of guys filming their girlfriends without their consent but some of it was apparently actual crimes taking place on video. Some of the girls stories against Pornhub were awful.
> 
> So yeah boys, if you’ve been to Pornhub you may have witnessed actual crimes occurring against someone daughter, sister, or wife. 😞


Weinstein caused irreparable harm to countless women and his disgusting habits were the catalyst of the MeToo movement that sparked an awareness of sexual misconduct. Do we stop watching Hollywood movies because of it or do we learn from it, learn to recognize it, and properly report it?


----------



## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

crashdawg said:


> Maybe this is the disconnect. I don't see it as mindless entertainment I see it as a tool, same as a YouTube video on how to work on my car, or an in person tutorial on how the craps table works.
> 
> I actually spent an hour watching a craps table in Vegas. I made the pit boss nervous. When he realized I was more interested in how it works he directed me to the clinic times. I attended the next morning, saw him the next night at the table... never spent a penny at the table (I was there on work conference). In the end he comped me tickets because I was curious and I was honest. Precisely 1 month later I won several thousand dollars for a charity event at a craps table. I still don't gamble.
> 
> Porn in that context has allowed me to deliver above and beyond on the needs and desires of my wife. I understand what arouses her, I understand the positions, the methods, the rhythms etc. It has given me the "how to"... but that's because I sought out those elements... not the raunchy jollies and mindless bs.


It just takes a few videos to learn things, not daily use.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Except within the past year Pornhub removed almost half of their content in fear of criminal prosecution.
> 
> So it’s rotten even this year. It’s probably a lot of guys filming their girlfriends without their consent but some of it was apparently actual crimes taking place on video. Some of the girls stories against Pornhub were awful.
> 
> So yeah boys, if you’ve been to Pornhub you may have witnessed actual crimes occurring against someone daughter, sister, or wife. 😞


Good on them for enforcing the laws. 

There are laws and regulations in place to protect people's consent and privacy as well as insure it is consenting adults.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

thunderchad said:


> It just takes a few videos to learn things, not daily use.


Where on here or any other thread did I convey that I was a daily, monthly, or yearly user? Awesome assumption, swung for the fence, complete miss. 

It's very simple, go in, gather the Intel you need, get out. Knowledge grows. It's useful. On rare occasions you may need a refresh but certainly not daily or even monthly.

The ONLY exception that I can think of to that would be stamina training and learning the boundaries of your own self control. Not my thing but if someone were to explore that it'd probably be habitual short term use.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

thunderchad said:


> It just takes a few videos to learn things, not daily use.


I would also argue most of what you 'learn' in porn is highly unrealistic and of no help to the real women in your life.

Thuderchad. I want to thank you for admitting that you realized you enjoyed it but it wasn't good for you. You and CatholicDad are some of the only ones even though I think there are more that have accidently spent hours watching it when they hadn't intended. CatholicDad gets no end of **** about his honesty about over coming his porn problem and his cruisade to warn others of its dangers.

I hope your wife appreciated when you quit. I also hope you told her you quit. Sometimes men just get sneakier so she may not have known.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Anastasia6 said:


> I would also argue most of what you 'learn' in porn is highly unrealistic and of no help to the real women in your life.
> 
> Thuderchad. I want to thank you for admitting that you realized you enjoyed it but it wasn't good for you. You and CatholicDad are some of the only ones even though I think there are more that have accidently spent hours watching it when they hadn't intended. CatholicDad gets no end of **** about his honesty about over coming his porn problem and his cruisade to warn others of its dangers.
> 
> I hope your wife appreciated when you quit. I also hope you told her you quit. Sometimes men just get sneakier so she may not have known.


I would love to hear you explain the basis of your unrealistic argument to Dr Ruth, or any certified sex therapist, or any practicing couples counselor who has recommended specific how to videos.

Yes there's plenty of trash out there and fantasy crap. Thankfully there's search features that can direct you accordingly. But I believe your retreat to the moral high ground was both questionably founded and premature! I realize it may be uncomfortable but personal growth happens at the very edge of our comfort zones.


----------



## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

Anastasia6 said:


> I hope your wife appreciated when you quit. I also hope you told her you quit. Sometimes men just get sneakier so she may not have known.


We definitely had a discussion. It was early in our relationship. We discussed our expectations of each other with respect to sex, masturbation, porn, etc and came up with solutions that we were both comfortable and happy with. I see a lot of people post here about sex related problems and I always ask myself...why don't they just talk about it? Or why didn't they talk about this early on before days turned into years and the marriage is falling apart.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

thunderchad said:


> We definitely had a discussion. It was early in our relationship. We discussed our expectations of each other with respect to sex, masturbation, porn, etc and came up with solutions that we were both comfortable and happy with. I see a lot of people post here about sex related problems and I always ask myself...why don't they just talk about it? Or why didn't they talk about this early on before days turned into years and the marriage is falling apart.


This is the common ground. Porn for me is a tool. Used when needed for very specific purposes. But the key to all of this for me is clear open communication with my wife. We research things we're interested in as a couple. I'll be honest, toys break, do you buy the same thing or look into something new? That was the most recent event.

Bottom line, talk with your partner. Open up to your partner. Give them the opportunity and the tools to exceed any needs you could possibly have. That was my complaint in the other thread. Opportunity was there (husband likes something specific in porn). Window into husband's desires was slammed shut (wife doesn't like porn and may have encouraged active repression instead of open communication thereby causing further damage).

There's nothing wrong in admitting when something is out of control and taking steps to address it. There is some wrong in assuming everyone has the same experience.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Good on them for enforcing the laws.
> 
> There are laws and regulations in place to protect people's consent and privacy as well as insure it is consenting adults.


No, not really. It took years of legal pressure and the credit card companies backing away from them to get them to act. They had been profiting from some of this criminal activity for a decade. It also involved some young ladies courageous enough to tell their stories and be willing to fight for what’s right.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

CatholicDad said:


> No, not really. It took years of legal pressure and the credit card companies backing away from them to get them to act. They had been profiting from some of this criminal activity for a decade. It also involved some young ladies courageous enough to tell their stories and be willing to fight for what’s right.


Is now the moment when I point out that said public pressure campaigns and witness testimony was in part because of the MeToo movement? ALL of those women were incredibly courageous. High profile individuals stepped forward and their courage to risk their careers inspired countless others to do the same.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> Here is a hypothetical.
> 
> Let’s say someone’s wife came home last night and happened to be wearing a sexy little cami that she happened to wear to bed and then initiated on her husband and banged the snot out of him.
> 
> ...


Why does the person need porn. What about the thoughts of his wife and memories of last night?


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> The other issue, which I think it bigger, is that it's not good for the marital bond.


Well, that will certainly be true for some (who believe it is a problem), yet it will also not be true for others (who don't believe it is a problem).

Of which I have a tremendous marital bond with my wife, who I also share a tremendously rich, varied and enthusiastic sex life with as well.

And on that sex life, we've sustained it enthusiastically with very high frequency, having it grow and evolve without abatement, throughout our close to 26 years (almost 23 years married) of being together.

All despite the enormous number of things that we have weathered together as well.

Given that pornography is not something that concerns either of us, it simply has no negative impact on our marital bond.

That said if it wasn’t for reading about it on TAM, I wouldn’t have known that any more than a small number of wowsers felt that viewing pornography and or masturbation was ever a problem.

And on that subject there are also women who enjoy consuming erotica and pornography, just as there are women who happily choose to participate in the production of erotica and pornography in front of the lens/pen or behind it as well. Which is pretty clear according to some of the literature on the subject, including The Feminist Porn Book as edited by Tristan Taormino, Celine Parreñas Shimzu, Constance Penley, and Mireille Miller-Young.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Divinely Favored said:


> Why does the person need porn. What about the thoughts of his wife and memories of last night?


Nobody needs porn.

Why would someone want to look at a picture of something they have seen before?

Why watch TV or a movie when you could read a book?


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm following through on my statement that I would start a new thread after a brief discussion on someone else's thread.
> 
> Porn. It's a touchy subject, and in this thread I'd like to keep the religious and moral objections out. Not that those aren't valid, but it's tough to have much of a back and forth because religious and moral objections are absolute in the eyes of those who hold them and you either agree or you don't.
> 
> ...


Cool discussion. I like all your reasons for not doing it. 

I guess I just don't care. I'll roll with it as a double standard. 

I want sex all the time. Twice a day. That would be great. My wife won't do that. Now, if I went by the typical TAM woman, once or twice a day seems to be the norm here. I have never met women like this in my life so I am shocked when I read about so many here. That is not real life though in my neck of the woods (but that would be great for me!). My wife has never given me trouble about porn use. In fact, I love it when she interrupts and would prefer if I have sex with her. She will do this once every 8 years or so. She will reject me, but it is a faux rejection and come to interrupt me. Holy hell do I love this!

I've never gone to porn first. I try to initiate sex first every time. If she rejects me, then I'll use porn. If someone says use your imagination, I will say no Thanks. My imagination sucks ass. 

My wife can stop my porn use any time she wants. I still lust for her the most. If she rejects me and would say that I can't use porn, then I guess we aren't a match and I'll be on my way. 

@lifeistooshort, is that fair enough?

I am honestly asking your opinion. I understand if it still doesn't jive with the very plausible reasons you've come up with for not liking porn. But like I said, if this is a double standard, so be it. I'll live it and not lose sleep. There are much worse double standards I can think of.


----------



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

this thread is just basically saying that Porn means many things to many people. It is used in very different ways. And it should not be painted with a broad brush as "bad" or "good", but like any tool, it has the proper use.


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Divinely Favored said:


> Why does the person need porn. What about the thoughts of his wife and memories of last night?


What if there aren't any of those memories of last night as it never happened?


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I want sex all the time. Twice a day. That would be great. My wife won't do that. Now, if I went by the typical TAM woman, once or twice a day seems to be the norm here. I have never met women like this in my life so I am shocked when I read about so many here.


I second that statement. I have been in two marriage and many relationships in my life all of which included sex. NONE of the women ever wanted sex daily and thats a number more than 25.

Sure, you could says its me but I am stats man and statistics would say otherwise based on the sample set. I should have at least met one along the way who did.

Sure, they probably do exist as a few make posters here state they have sex daily or close to it but not too many. I think its around 5-7?


----------



## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I have never met women like this in my life so I am shocked when I read about so many here.


My wife is in the twice a day crowd. 

What about making videos with your wife to use later on?


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

As a side note and I mentioned this in another thread. My wife is addicted to conspiracy theory videos. She watches A LOT of them and I feel it has a disruption to our marriage. I have asked her about it and she has said she has a right to watch what she wants to watch. So I would argue porn is no different.


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

thunderchad said:


> My wife is in the twice a day crowd.
> 
> What about making videos with your wife to use later on?


I would venture to say if a woman is reluctant to even have very frequent sex, she is NOT going to allow videos to be made. Just my hunch (and a combined 31 years of marriage) 

And I will add you are one in the 5-7 I accounted for in my other reply.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DownButNotOut said:


> Mistresses, Gentlemen's clubs, street walkers, dirty photos, erotic art, dirty sketches, multiple wives, war brides, the list goes on.


Long before most of those things. That is recent history. 
Nothing men had before was anything like the easy access to porn we have now. Accessible from our own homes.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> As I said earlier, most of your most ardent anti porn crusaders are basing their judgement on the old 1970/80s industry model.
> 
> Today’s “pornographers” are just as likely to be Ron and Christine down the street.


And?


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

crashdawg said:


> Lots of odd logic and straw man arguments in the 9 pages and counting. Isn't your wife technically someone else's daughter, granddaughter, sister, niece, cousin etc? And if the two of you decide to self produce privately, only viewed by you, isn't that still porn? And if it's leaked, and others see it wouldn't that make you porn stars?
> 
> But is porn limited to a photo and video medium? If the mental images of your wife gets you going is that porn? Technically it's not her it's a mental image and a memory. Does her being your wife somehow negate her being someone else's daughter? And if you're reliving old memories are you cheating on her with her younger self?
> 
> What if you're using porn as a tool? Wanna get better at fixing your car learn from mechanics. Wanna get better at growing your own food, see a farmer... Why is watching a video about sex or listening to a pornstar on podcast or reading a blog the one time you're not supposed to seek out an expert? Case in point... learning to give better oral to your wife when you really don't have experience in that area. In that example, realistic lesbian porn, interviews, tutorials, they make them and they do help! Hell for that matter the "positions to last longer" and "achieving multiple O's" might be good. Remember the Karma Sutra was written long before pornhub in got a domain.


You would call a person in a porn film an expert?????I have heard that many of these actresses actually hate sex.


----------



## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

I think it is fair to give your partner right of first refusal before using porn or masturbating.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Now, if I went by the typical TAM woman, once or twice a day seems to be the norm here. I have never met women like this in my life so I am shocked when I read about so many here.


They are here to boast... if I were having sex twice or three time a day, I would be here boasting too, with a smirk on my face....


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> They are here to boast... if I were having sex twice or three time a day, I would be here boasting too, with a smirk on my face....


Well I am not trying to boast and will freely admit I haven't been this way the whole marriage. It's just where I am now. I am being held back by my husbands physical limitations and having to work.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> Well I am not trying to boast and will freely admit I haven't been this way the whole marriage. It's just where I am now. I am being held back by my husbands physical limitations and having to work.


Great! I'm just jealous... I haven't had any sex for 4 years...


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

thunderchad said:


> My wife is in the twice a day crowd.
> 
> What about making videos with your wife to use later on?


Like I said, TAM seems to bring out people here that somehow get to have sex every day or multiple times a day. It’s a miracle how everyone here is like that.

my wife would never in a million years do something like that. She is way too reserved.

hypothetically speaking, if she did, I wouldn’t use porn.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

thunderchad said:


> My wife is in the twice a day crowd.
> 
> What about making videos with your wife to use later on?


So it went from anti porn and abstaining from porn to producing homemade porn? Or does the title of wife supersede the arguments of someone else's daughter?


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I second that statement. I have been in two marriage and many relationships in my life all of which included sex. NONE of the women ever wanted sex daily and thats a number more than 25.
> 
> Sure, you could says its me but I am stats man and statistics would say otherwise based on the sample set. I should have at least met one along the way who did.
> 
> Sure, they probably do exist as a few make posters here state they have sex daily or close to it but not too many. I think its around 5-7?


Lol. It’s funny how it works here, right? Also, every woman on TAM (or wife of male TAM member) orgasms from PIV. Every. Single. One.

even though the general population of women is only 30% that orgasm from PIV.

also, every 65 year old man on TAM has sex with his 65 year old wife 6 times every week.

TAM just destroys every single normal statistic. 😂


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

thunderchad said:


> I said this before and I'll say it again. I used to love porn, who doesn't? Watching people **** is exciting. But I started doing some research and what it does to our brains and grey matter is not good. I also see how it hurts partners. My wife gets very insecure and feels inadequate if I watch porn. Is that worth it? No. I also found it to be very addicting. I could easily waste hours a night watching porn videos.


That's partly why we don't watch it. I just couldn't disrespect Mr D in that way. I love him too much to treat him like that. Porn undermines a faithful marriage. 
People here think that it's just our faith and moral values that stops us from watching it, it's SO much more than that. 
Plus why would we want to support such an industry? 

As for addiction, that's why it's best never to start watching. Its so much harder to stop when you are addicted. Many men claim not to be addicted. I would say to them ok, stop for a month and see how you get on. Many would struggle I suspect.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

crashdawg said:


> So it went from anti porn and abstaining from porn to producing homemade porn? Or does the title of wife supersede the arguments of someone else's daughter?


If you are married I can't see the harm in filming yourselves. As long as no one else sees it. 
As Mr D says, 'other women aren't mine to look at'. I am his to look at.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Maybe a TJ but I wonder how many women are here who think their partner doesn’t watch/look at porn are incorrect in that assumption given how accessible it is.

Also what is porn? Is it one of those, “I can’t explain what it is but I know it when I see it?”

As an experiment I just went to Reddit’s popular tab and I didn’t have to scroll far to find bare breasts.

For the “my husband wouldn’t/never crowd” if he stumbles across an image like I just did does he linger on it for a second?

Of course I immediately ran and grabbed eye bleach (videos of kittens) but I’m worried that the image I saw may haunt me, potentially forever.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> That's partly why we don't watch it. I just couldn't disrespect Mr D in that way. I love him too much to treat him like that. Porn undermines a faithful marriage.
> People here think that it's just our faith and moral values that stops us from watching it, it's SO much more than that.
> Plus why would we want to support such an industry?
> 
> As for addiction, that's why it's best never to start watching. Its so much harder to stop when you are addicted. Many men claim not to be addicted. I would say to them ok, stop for a month and see how you get on. Many would struggle I suspect.


I think you make good points, Diana. I can see your perspective. You’ve also mentioned that you have a vivid imagination.

what should I do? My imagination is terrible and I want sex all the time. My wife these days will go 4 times a week. I could abstain and not get my daily release. If that happens I will build more resentment for my wife. Should she have sex with me every day? The answer to that is “no”, of course. We can’t force others to do what we want. She should be able to choose whatever she wants to do.

as such, I will choose what I want to do. What’s fair is fair.

I am also looking at it from the standpoint of this thread (no moral argument which I stand by because I personally do not care about the morality of porn. I only watch the amateur stuff done by couples where no faces are seen).

you mention some men would have difficulty going a month without. I am in agreement with you. I can promise you that I would have no difficulty giving it up if my wife had sex with me every day.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Diana7 said:


> You would call a person in a porn film an expert?????I have heard that many of these actresses actually hate sex.


You have heard from where? Actresses in professional productions specifically contract for the sexual positions they participate in. Maybe some enjoy certain positions or certain people, often it's just business, but it is quite literally a job with the majority of bargaining power given to the actress. They are free to walk and free to quit. Granted that amount of regulations is specific to developed countries.
All in all a different environment then it was decades ago and a very different environment from sex trafficking, pimps, and street walkers. The street life is pure fear with drugs use. They're not the same thing and painting with broad strokes minimizes the legal progress made in porn and hides the true horrors of sex trafficking.

The blogs, bloopers, and behind the scenes of professional porn stars are actually interesting. But yeah if you want to learn techniques for specific positions they're a great resource for that.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> Well I am not trying to boast and will freely admit I haven't been this way the whole marriage. It's just where I am now. I am being held back by my husbands physical limitations and having to work.


I'm not a multiple times a day person but I have been good for 3-5 times a week with my bf of a few years.

I find him very attractive and am a pretty sexual person. I try to keep my fitness high because body image and feeling well makes a lot of difference.

And most importantly....bf hasn't done anything to **** it up 😅


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Our chemistry brings us closer to the flame, our character near to shame.

Such a delicate balance.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> Maybe a TJ but I wonder how many women are here who think their partner doesn’t watch/look at porn are incorrect in that assumption given how accessible it is.
> 
> Also what is porn? Is it one of those, “I can’t explain what it is but I know it when I see it?”
> 
> ...


I'm quite certain that my bf sees revealing and naked picks/videos online. I've been there where they've come up even through FB and of course he looks....if I'm there he'll show them to me. Even if you're not looking for porn you're going to run into things running around online.

But I don't think he's regularly surfing porn and getting off. I have my reasons for thinking that and while I could certainly be wrong I'm not going to spend my time worrying about it.

If it becomes obvious it's going to be a problem.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

SunCMars said:


> Our chemistry brings us closer to the flame, our character near to shame.
> 
> Such a delicate balance.


One of these days I may understand just one of your posts.

maybe.

meh. Probably not.

I use basic words and I don’t understand poetry.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Anastasia6 said:


> Well I am not trying to boast and will freely admit I haven't been this way the whole marriage. It's just where I am now. I am being held back by my husbands physical limitations and having to work.


A healthy sex life requires intimacy, communication, and constant upkeep. Feel free to boast or at a minimum feel pride. Couples work hard to achieve and maintain that level in a relationship. Some with the assistance of porn, some on their own without it.

Apologies if some of my posts were inconvenient. My wife and I also enjoy a healthy private life. Porn proved to be a very useful tool that gave me the skills to get there. There's not many places to turn to learn to be better in specific positions. Odd thought but the Karma Sutra "now" was porn "back then". There's also the Geisha writings, and the Persian writings of concubines, and the French writings... basically sex instructions of their day but branded at that time as porn. Now when you search those questions you're greeted with modern porn, can't say I'm shocked.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Diana7 said:


> Long before most of those things. That is recent history.
> Nothing men had before was anything like the easy access to porn we have now. Accessible from our own homes.


UMMMM... everything men had before with the exception of written, photographed, or filmed, was with a live person. That was substantially more dangerous for all parties involved. You also have access to indoor plumbing and electricity in your home. I'd say modern upgrades made things safer!


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ccpowerslave said:


> Maybe a TJ but I wonder how many women are here who think their partner doesn’t watch/look at porn are incorrect in that assumption given how accessible it is.
> 
> Also what is porn? Is it one of those, “I can’t explain what it is but I know it when I see it?”
> 
> ...


I suspect there are men who lie and deceive their wives in that way but so many who dont. 
With reference to Reddit etc, Mr D just isn't interested in social media, he doesn't even have a Facebook account so he isn't going to see anything there anyway.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> If it becomes obvious it's going to be a problem.


A summary of my opinion in one nice short sentence.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

crashdawg said:


> UMMMM... everything men had before with the exception of written, photographed, or filmed, was with a live person. That was substantially more dangerous for all parties involved. You also have access to indoor plumbing and electricity in your home. I'd say modern upgrades made things safer!


Why does anyone think there are all the nude sculptures, paintings, art,etc?

Plus taking Romans as an example, they used slaves as sex porn and sex shows routinely. 

Just showing all periods do indeed have their time period porn.

As did other historical peoples in power.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

crashdawg said:


> UMMMM... everything men had before with the exception of written, photographed, or filmed, was with a live person. That was substantially more dangerous for all parties involved. You also have access to indoor plumbing and electricity in your home. I'd say modern upgrades made things safer!


I doubt men then cheated more than they do now, but just as many managed to masturbate without having porn.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Why does anyone think there are all the nude sculptures, paintings, art,etc?
> 
> Plus taking Romans as an example, they used slaves as sex porn and sex shows routinely.
> 
> ...


I do not think the Romans were a good example of functional living.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Diana7 said:


> If you are married I can't see the harm in filming yourselves. As long as no one else sees it.
> As Mr D says, 'other women aren't mine to look at'. I am his to look at.


Tommy Lee and Pamela got leaked by a contractor and now decades later they get to relive that nightmare on Hulu... Countless celebrities have been hacked, leaked, and exposed. Please tell me how filming a wife isn't a double standard about porn. There is no way to 100% prevent a leak unless you abstain and don't film it.

And she's still someone's daughter!


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Ragnar, you aren’t going to get a Brit to say anything nice about Romans. 😂


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Well ... this thread has stayed right on target.

I really don't know how much most couples truly share about their intimate activities. On the masturbation front, I presume in a LTR it still fundamentally operates off of the 'Don't ask, don't tell' principle. Which begs the question. Do you REALLY want to know how often your man really wants to be having sex with you? Or how much and what media he consumes if he is self satisfying because he assumes (correctly for the most part), that you DON'T want to get busy 4 times a day?

I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a female friend, who despite being thrilled with the sexuality of her boyfriend at the time, she did indeed have that frank conversation. He informed her that in no uncertain terms was sex once a day enough for him. He made it clear that he would masturbate before, and after they had been intimate, and on days they weren't together, he averaged at least 4 times a day. She asked if he used porn. He answered, 'of course I use porn.'
Her words to me were, "How the hell am I supposed to compete with that? I'll never be enough for him."

You of course all know the logical thing she did as a result.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Ragnar, you aren’t going to get a Brit to say anything nice about Romans. 😂


They were very good at construction but very very cruel and bloodthirsty, so you are right.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> I do not think the Romans were a good example of functional living.


In that aspect, no, not a great example. 

But a lot of their other accomplishments are foundational for today's living.

Not to mention the architecture, building construction, and true infrastructure.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Deejo said:


> Well ... this thread has stayed right on target.
> 
> I really don't know how much most couples truly share about their intimate activities. On the masturbation front, I presume in a LTR it still fundamentally operates off of the 'Don't ask, don't tell' principle. Which begs the question. Do you REALLY want to know how often your man really wants to be having sex with you? Or how much and what media he consumes if he is self satisfying because he assumes (correctly for the most part), that you DON'T want to get busy 4 times a day?
> 
> ...


Good for her.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> In that aspect, no, not a great example.
> 
> But a lot of their other accomplishments are foundational for today's living.
> 
> Not to mention the architecture, building construction, and true infrastructure.


Yes they were good at those things but appalling in other ways.
I made the mistake decades ago reading a book about what went on in their arenas, it was just sick and to say they were cruel is a massive understatement.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Diana7 said:


> Good for her.


You read that wrong. She married him.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Diana7 said:


> I doubt men then cheated more than they do now, but just as many managed to masturbate without having porn.


Is this a sick joke? History is littered with illegitimate children. One only has to watch Deadwood to realize how prevalent and vile and violent saloon and brothel prostitution was. One only has to watch LA Confidential to see the same theme in 1940's Los Angeles. One only needs to look at photos of Times Square in the 1970's, walkers, pimps, and peep shows everywhere, to realize how horrible and dangerous that was. History is quite literally against your statement.

Men had the opportunity to cheat more but it was also a LOT more dangerous for all parties involved. BUT I cited semi-recent American history, how far back would you like to go? French Revolution? Middle Ages? Roman lipstick? Prostitution is called the oldest profession for a reason.

We can also talk about the origin of the term "hookers", and how it came to define prostitutes because so many followed Gen Hooker's camp during the American Civil War.


----------



## Quad73 (May 10, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> I would also argue most of what you 'learn' in porn is highly unrealistic and of no help to the real women in your life.
> 
> Thuderchad. I want to thank you for admitting that you realized you enjoyed it but it wasn't good for you. You and CatholicDad are some of the only ones even though I think there are more that have accidently spent hours watching it when they hadn't intended. CatholicDad gets no end of **** about his honesty about over coming his porn problem and his cruisade to warn others of its dangers.
> 
> I hope your wife appreciated when you quit. I also hope you told her you quit. Sometimes men just get sneakier so she may not have known.


Most of what he would 'see' if he simply surfed porn randomly would be highly unrealistic; embarrassingly so. He's talking about putting in the effort to separate the useful (for them) from the crap. 

Yes, porn is like 500 channels of mostly crappy cable, but it's also a museum attached to a library attached to an amateur writer archive attached to an art gallery. It's highly diverse. Lumping it all under the 475 crappy cable channels is a bit unfair. 

Besides, most people still subscribe to cable even if they don't watch 475/500 of the crappy channels. They choose their favorites, the ones that give them pleasure, and ignore the rest. 

My W and I have a certain sexual dynamic that's not very common. Highly curated porn has helped us discover the ins and outs of that dynamic (pun intended) and has given us a sex life that still continues to improve after 20+ years.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Deejo said:


> I really don't know how much most couples truly share about their intimate activities.


My wife knows because I told her point blank so there is no ambiguity there. I would have sex 1-2x a day. In periods where I run close to that I have no interest in doing anything else. When I don’t, then I have interest. 

Sometimes I will choose not to act on that interest, so for example if I thought there was a chance my wife would be interested in sex in the evening I would not crank one out that day. 

To stay on topic of the thread, for me, there is a performance and enjoyment degradation or a release of “sexual energy” which I’d rather use for her.

She doesn’t care about porn, I’d say I actually probably object to it more than she does although I’d be surprised if she’s a big consumer of it.

I forgot to say, my actual main objection with it is the DSO “Eugene” example which is the guy cranking one off in a dark corner instead of having actual sex. I’d rather not be Eugene.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

ccpowerslave said:


> Maybe a TJ but I wonder how many women are here who think their partner doesn’t watch/look at porn are incorrect in that assumption given how accessible it is.
> 
> Also what is porn? Is it one of those, “I can’t explain what it is but I know it when I see it?”
> 
> ...


Not sure, you would have to post the reddit pic for us to make an educated determination.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

And remember folks, there is a reason over 17 million men across Asia have genetic markers linking them directly back to Genghis Khan.

Thankfully, none of us posting here, presumably, wish to model the Mongol conqueror.

Been married twice now. Have had my fair share of LTR's. Outside of the hormonal and brain chemical soup of early pair bonding, I have never been in a relationship where sex increases over time. I'd be very interested in hearing about cases or relationships where that has been the case.

Again, speaking for myself, my libido hasn't shifted much over the last 30 years, even when I was having physical symptoms due to low testosterone, achy joints, brain fog, fatigue ... I still absolutely had the desire to be intimate with my partners, pretty much wherever and whenever.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> What if there aren't any of those memories of last night as it never happened?


Why is it needed? Didn't you ever go there as youth and not been watching porn?


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I doubt men then cheated more than they do now, but just as many managed to masturbate without having porn.


Having mistresses and courtisans and lovers etc was not only common but fairly standard in days gone by. 

Strict marital monogamy is very recent concept.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Out of curiosity, I just pulled this statistic off of a data aggregator site for Only Fans.

*Key OnlyFans Statistics for 2022*

OnlyFans has 170 million users
Every day 500,000 people join OnlyFans
OnlyFans has 1.5 million content creators
The top OnlyFans creators make $100,000 a month
The average OnlyFans creator makes $151 per month
The average creator on OnlyFans has 21 subscribers
OnlyFans has paid more than $2 billion to its creators so far

So ... for perspective, the number of people that log onto this one platform, is more than half the population of the United States.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Deejo said:


> And remember folks, there is a reason over 17 million men across Asia have genetic markers linking them directly back to Genghis Khan.
> 
> Thankfully, none of us posting here, presumably, wish to model the Mongol conqueror.
> 
> ...


our sex life is more active now than when we first got married.


----------



## BURNT KEP (Oct 3, 2012)

When you live in a sexless marriage what options are there?


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Deejo said:


> And remember folks, there is a reason over 17 million men across Asia have genetic markers linking them directly back to Genghis Khan.
> 
> Thankfully, none of us posting here, presumably, wish to model the Mongol conqueror.
> 
> ...


Can’t say that my sex increased over time with my wife, but I can say our 6 month hysterical bonding period last year pretty much matched what our initial years together were, but alas, not more.

I’m the same as you, Deejo. My drive has never waned. It is just as high as if I was still 18 years old.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

ccpowerslave said:


> I forgot to say, my actual main objection with it is the DSO “Eugene” example which is the guy cranking one off in a dark corner instead of having actual sex. I’d rather not be Eugene.


But the reality is, the world if full of Eugene's. And that number is actually increasing.
Another easy to overlook, but no doubt true ... and arguably harmful point relating to masturbation/porn/sex is that I've certainly read, and seen it posted here on the boards, for many guys, jumping through the hoops of trying to get their partner in the mood, 'hoping' for sex is simply too much work. And as the article below indicates, more and more men either CAN'T foster and grow an intimate LTR, or again ... decide it just isn't worth the effort. It's disconcerting.








More Men Than Women Are Now Single. It's Not a Good Sign


Almost a third of adult single men live with a parent




time.com


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Deejo said:


> You read that wrong. She married him.


Very foolish of her.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Having mistresses and courtisans and lovers etc was not only common but fairly standard in days gone by.
> 
> Strict marital monogamy is very recent concept.


Its from a very long time ago!


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> Very foolish of her.


I love it that you stick your convictions, Diana. It is admirable.

I will say this, though:

my wife is married to a man who is a porn user. I dare her to find a better man. Lol. Good luck.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

crashdawg said:


> Is this a sick joke? History is littered with illegitimate children. One only has to watch Deadwood to realize how prevalent and vile and violent saloon and brothel prostitution was. One only has to watch LA Confidential to see the same theme in 1940's Los Angeles. One only needs to look at photos of Times Square in the 1970's, walkers, pimps, and peep shows everywhere, to realize how horrible and dangerous that was. History is quite literally against your statement.
> 
> Men had the opportunity to cheat more but it was also a LOT more dangerous for all parties involved. BUT I cited semi-recent American history, how far back would you like to go? French Revolution? Middle Ages? Roman lipstick? Prostitution is called the oldest profession for a reason.
> 
> We can also talk about the origin of the term "hookers", and how it came to define prostitutes because so many followed Gen Hooker's camp during the American Civil War.


No different now.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Diana7 said:


> Very foolish of her.


I do not disagree.

*Edited to add: However, she cannot say that she didn't know what she signed up for.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

crashdawg said:


> Is this a sick joke? History is littered with illegitimate children. One only has to watch Deadwood to realize how prevalent and vile and violent saloon and brothel prostitution was. One only has to watch LA Confidential to see the same theme in 1940's Los Angeles. One only needs to look at photos of Times Square in the 1970's, walkers, pimps, and peep shows everywhere, to realize how horrible and dangerous that was. History is quite literally against your statement.
> 
> Men had the opportunity to cheat more but it was also a LOT more dangerous for all parties involved. BUT I cited semi-recent American history, how far back would you like to go? French Revolution? Middle Ages? Roman lipstick? Prostitution is called the oldest profession for a reason.
> 
> We can also talk about the origin of the term "hookers", and how it came to define prostitutes because so many followed Gen Hooker's camp during the American Civil War.


Is this a sick joke? History is littered with illegitimate children.

How does that have anything to do with it. Could be women cheating on their hubby's with Fboys. With media, it is easier to cheat on a spouse now as opposed to then. Just look at AM and all the women signed up for their sexcapades. Shame all those websites do not get hacked and those members names posted for all their spouses to see.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Anastasia6 said:


> our sex life is more active now than when we first got married.


@Anastasia6 Do you have more sex because the marriage is more satisfying now, or is it more satisfying now because you have more sex?


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> I doubt men then cheated more than they do now, but just as many managed to masturbate without having porn.


Not to be disagreeable 🙂 but imho men cheated more in earlier times in certain empires, for sure.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Divinely Favored said:


> Why is it needed? Didn't you ever go there as youth and not been watching porn?


As a youth, there was Penthouse. Nuff said.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Deejo said:


> Do you have more sex because the marriage is more satisfying now, or is it more satisfying now because you have more sex?


I'm not sure there is any one cause. There is more communication, more satisfying marriage, better sex, more awareness, less outside commitments, and more trust.

I have more love, trust and respect for my husband now than I did. I have always loved him, trusted him and respected him but it is more now.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Having mistresses and courtisans and lovers etc was not only common but fairly standard in days gone by.


It's common today. There has been no change in the rates of marital infidelity for men. The key difference now is that women are now able to support themselves. So, not only are women not locked away at home with no access to any other adults, they are not financially forced to stay in a marriage with a man who no longer loves them because otherwise they and their children would starve. Sure, it was LEGAL in the past for a woman to divorce for infidelity, but she rarely had the resources and she had to prove, in court, that her husband was unfaithful. If she did have proof, her husband just gets one of his buddies to claim he slept with her, then he divorces HER and she gets nothing. 

People have not changed. Women just have more independence and actually have a choice now. Even in the Bible, there was no expectation that the man would be faithful to his wife, just that he would financially support any children he had outside of his "original" marriage by accumulating different wives. 

What about this statement (I'm not saying if I'm for or against it, I'm just putting it out there to see the reactions): Most of the men on here don't seem to think that extracurricular sex is a reason for a woman to divorce because sex doesn't mean anything. So if a woman is having extracurricular sex, and sex doesn't mean anything, would you divorce your wife if you found out that she was having one night stands on a regular basis?


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> I'm not sure there is any one cause. There is more communication, more satisfying marriage, better sex, more awareness, less outside commitments, and more trust.
> 
> I have more love, trust and respect for my husband now than I did. I have always loved him, trusted him and respected him but it is more now.


One might say you guys are more mature, which makes you better able to communicate calmly and discuss things and work things out. When we were young and silly, everything was a huge deal and it was hard to have the tough conversations. It's still hard, but we're stronger now (we=you, me, and our husbands)


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Feel like I chimed in without addressing @lifeistooshort 's initial post.

At 56, the concept of reserving my sexual energy whether I like it or not, has definitely become a factor. And yes, I have shared that energy with my relatively new 55 year old partner. I'm also presuming that due to it's newness, sex and bonding is preoccupying both our minds. 

I have a hard time imagining the male who would prefer to give his time and energy over to 'screen sex' as opposed to the real thing. 

I certainly believe that a man who does just that, and is partnered with a woman that desires to be intimate, is harming the relationship.
But, no secret coming from me ... I also believe that a man who wants to be intimate with his partner, and she chooses instead to consistently shut him down, or avoid intimacy, is also harming the relationship.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

The sheer amount of cherry picking in this thread deserves an Olympic gold medal in mental gymnastics. Broad strokes. Over generalizations. Switching subjects when evidence is contrary then circling back and restating it again later in hopes of a better outcome? It makes having a logical conversation difficult. Professional counselors have used porn to help relationships. Support groups have supported individuals breaking addictions. Porn is a tool. It is no more good or evil then a hammer or a screwdriver. How you use it provides the moral context. Everyone's wife is someone's daughter. Everyone's husband is someone's son. We're all here because 2 people had an encounter and nature took it's course.

To put an incredibly fine point on it. If your partner is mature enough to know what he or she wants in sex but lacks the self confidence to tell you openly then they will not be fully satisfied. If the very topic to them is taboo and repressed then they're simply not going to direct you in bed. If you want to be better for him or her then you have to seek outside resources to ensure the needs of your partner are fully met. The goal isn't to orgasm and sleep, it's to send your partner to untold heights so they know beyond anything else how much they are loved.

If the above doesn't apply to you because you have open communication, plenty of sex, and no need for porn in your marriage then there's literally nothing to be gained from posting here and chastising others. Switching subjects constantly, cherry picking, and broad generalizations with no factual basis hurt the thread and by extension may hurt existing relationships where partners are seeking help.


----------



## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

Sex is the one thing that keeps marriages together. Without sex the marriage eventually falls apart. Without it you are just good friends and/or roommates.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

thunderchad said:


> Sex is the one thing that keeps marriages together. Without sex the marriage eventually falls apart. Without it you are just good friends and/or roommates.


It has been reasonably argued that without sex, it's not technically a marriage. It's just roommates and friends. I find that a very compelling argument in favor of the position that if a spouse decides they no longer want sex with their spouse, the non-sex-wanting spouse has the right to have sex with other people. Because it's no longer a marriage. When a spouse cuts the other off and still expects them to be faithful, that is a very clear violation of the original contract. (This assuming the cutting off is permanent and not health/mental health related. I'm assuming a situation where one spouse simply always says no and doesn't have a reason other than they just don't wanna.)


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Diana7 said:


> No different now.


So you see no difference between a partner seeking outside attention and exposing both of you to outside violence and bad health

And

Someone looking at porn from the safety and security of their own home and possibly utilizing some of what they learn to further the experience for their spouse?

There's no difference?

I have to be honest I for one am thankful for indoor plumbing because I really shudder when I think of people using outhouses in South Dakota in winter. Maybe it's selfish self preservation but I prefer my butt cheeks without frostbite.

The convenience and accessibility of porn cuts both ways. It's much harder to keep out of peoples hands. It's much harder to prevent addiction. But it's much safer, and much easier, to give your spouse everything they desire even if they lack the self confidence to tell you.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Personal said:


> Well, that will certainly be true for some (who believe it is a problem), yet it will also not be true for others (who don't believe it is a problem).
> 
> Of which I have a tremendous marital bond with my wife, who I also share a tremendously rich, varied and enthusiastic sex life with as well.
> 
> ...


It could be a problem for your children. There’s a natural pace in which children should learn about sexuality. Having porn around the house increases the chance that kids will be exposed to things they are not ready for and this could cause actual developmental problems. There are documented cases of elementary school kids with the characteristics of porn addiction…. look it up. It’s horribly sad.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Deejo said:


> But the reality is, the world if full of Eugene's. And that number is actually increasing.
> Another easy to overlook, but no doubt true ... and arguably harmful point relating to masturbation/porn/sex is that I've certainly read, and seen it posted here on the boards, for many guys, jumping through the hoops of trying to get their partner in the mood, 'hoping' for sex is simply too much work. And as the article below indicates, more and more men either CAN'T foster and grow an intimate LTR, or again ... decide it just isn't worth the effort. It's disconcerting.
> 
> 
> ...


Disclaimer, I didn't read the article. 

Regarding hoop jumping, if it really IS hoop jumping that's required for a man to have a reasonable, healthy sex life with his wife (real hoop jumping, not just providing a good relationship) that's ********. 

I see here on this forum men who are bending over backwards providing all of the good stuff of a life partnership such as providing financially, doing more than a fair share of life and home maintenance, plus things that usually only occur in intimate sexual relationships like on point emotional support, continuous words of affirmation, planning date nights and vacations, cuddling, massages, etc. and the wife still isn't interested in sex with him. She gives back friendship only. Yet he _keeps on providing all of these things to her as someone would in a mutual, intimate relationship_, even though it's not. It's roommates and platonic friends in which she gets the extra benefits a guy would normally give in an intimate relationship, but she won't be intimate with him. 

A lot of these men refuse to leave the relationship and even, amazingly, refuse to ease back on providing these things to her. 

I guess that's when they turn to porn.

To me, a more honest response would be to leave the relationship instead of living the fake way they are.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

CatholicDad said:


> It could be a problem for your children. There’s a natural pace in which children should learn about sexuality. Having porn around the house increases the chance that kids will be exposed to things they are not ready for and this could cause actual developmental problems. There are documented cases of elementary school kids with the characteristics of porn addiction…. look it up. It’s horribly sad.


But you could take a step further an say the oversexualization of society in general exposes the child long before they're ready. That reality would hit irrespective of online porn or physical porn media. It's the generational equivalent of hearing it at school and looking at Dad's playboys or older brother's stash. More prolific and more extreme now but same old problem.


----------



## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It has been reasonably argued that without sex, it's not technically a marriage. It's just roommates and friends. I find that a very compelling argument in favor of the position that if a spouse decides they no longer want sex with their spouse, the non-sex-wanting spouse has the right to have sex with other people. Because it's no longer a marriage. When a spouse cuts the other off and still expects them to be faithful, that is a very clear violation of the original contract. (This assuming the cutting off is permanent and not health/mental health related. I'm assuming a situation where one spouse simply always says no and doesn't have a reason other than they just don't wanna.)


I can agree with this.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Anastasia6 said:


> I'm not sure there is any one cause. There is more communication, more satisfying marriage, better sex, more awareness, less outside commitments, and more trust.
> 
> I have more love, trust and respect for my husband now than I did. I have always loved him, trusted him and respected him but it is more now.


Imagine having to earn that and desperately seeking to provide an even better sexual experience for your spouse who is to shy to communicate their desires but you love them for who they are and want better for them.

Porn provided the resources for my wife and I to achieve what you and your husband were already comfortable discussing and fully capable of achieving.

I know it's uncomfortable because it's a different situation. It's removing a stigma and allowing a woman to experience a pleasure she wasn't previously able to discuss. Delivering my wife to the gates of erotic ecstasy is a point of pride and a skill I've worked very hard to develop.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

crashdawg said:


> Imagine having to earn that and desperately seeking to provide an even better sexual experience for your spouse who is to shy to communicate their desires but you love them for who they are and want better for them.
> 
> Porn provided the resources for my wife and I to achieve what you and your husband were already comfortable discussing and fully capable of achieving.
> 
> I know it's uncomfortable because it's a different situation. It's removing a stigma and allowing a woman to experience a pleasure she wasn't previously able to discuss. Delivering my wife to the gates of erotic ecstasy is a point of pride and a skill I've worked very hard to develop.


I"m pretty much ignoring your posts. So don't bother asking me questions.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It has been reasonably argued that without sex, it's not technically a marriage. It's just roommates and friends. I find that a very compelling argument in favor of the position that if a spouse decides they no longer want sex with their spouse, the non-sex-wanting spouse has the right to have sex with other people. Because it's no longer a marriage. When a spouse cuts the other off and still expects them to be faithful, that is a very clear violation of the original contract. (This assuming the cutting off is permanent and not health/mental health related. I'm assuming a situation where one spouse simply always says no and doesn't have a reason other than they just don't wanna.)


So the vow is null and void simply because it's not a physical relationship? All this posturing and protection of the sacred vows and the moment there's no sex it's now invalidated? Please elaborate. That sounds like a convenient excuse to avoid the work of repairing a difficult relationship (and it IS a LOT of work). I can see it contributing to the end of a marriage but not without both parties simply giving up.

No porn, ever, even for educational resources to better our relationship... but hey no sex so it's over we're just roommates now? I gotta hear this one.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Anastasia6 said:


> I"m pretty much ignoring your posts. So don't bother asking me questions.


So your answer to anything inconvenient or uncomfortable is ignoring it and pretending it doesn't exist... Not acknowledging it. Not addressing it. Simply ignorance and silence.

Thank you for wasting my time and efforts to better understand human nature. Your silence speaks louder than your opinions.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> It could be a problem for your children. There’s a natural pace in which children should learn about sexuality. Having porn around the house increases the chance that kids will be exposed to things they are not ready for and this could cause actual developmental problems. There are documented cases of elementary school kids with the characteristics of porn addiction…. look it up. It’s horribly sad.


No doubt this is one of the main dangers of the wide availability of porn and the principle argument for it's prohibition. But currently all that can be done is is strict monitoring of online activity of kids and appropriate use of parental controls on all devices.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happyhusband0005 said:


> No doubt this is one of the main dangers of the wide availability of porn and the principle argument for it's prohibition. But currently all that can be done is is strict monitoring of online activity of kids and appropriate use of parental controls on all devices.


It is amazing what kids are exposed to in today's media, at the malls, even billboards.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

crashdawg said:


> So the vow is null and void simply because it's not a physical relationship? All this posturing and protection of the sacred vows and the moment there's no sex it's now invalidated? Please elaborate. That sounds like a convenient excuse to avoid the work of repairing a difficult relationship (and it IS a LOT of work). I can see it contributing to the end of a marriage but not without both parties simply giving up.
> 
> No porn, ever, even for educational resources to better our relationship... but hey no sex so it's over we're just roommates now? I gotta hear this one.


This is a valid criticism because my post left out very important specifics. 

I'm not meaning relationships where the sex is dwindling. I'm talking about when one spouse says, that's it, I don't want to have sex again. The other spouse tries, works on it, they talk, they go to counseling, and the spouse simply says, "I don't want to have sex with you any more." A marriage takes TWO PEOPLE. In the scenario of which I'm speaking, there is only one person trying and the other has unilaterally changed the relationship and will not budge. It's rare that it comes to that, but we can see from posts on here that it does, in fact, happen. In those scenarios, it is not the person going outside the marriage for sex who has broken the vow; it is the person who has, without discussion, changed the nature of the relationship in a selfish, self-centered way with no regard for the needs or feelings of the other person. It's an extreme, yes, that is fair, but it does happen.

I'm not going to address your porn claim, because you seem to be bent on pushing porn on people as an unquestioned good and anyone who doesn't like it or doesn't have an interest in it is a frigid prude. I don't see any willingness to discuss other points of view in your posts on this particular issue, so there's not really a point in talking about it with you.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

thunderchad said:


> Sex is the one thing that keeps marriages together. Without sex the marriage eventually falls apart. Without it you are just good friends and/or roommates.


For various reasons there are marriages where there can't be sex and they don't fall apart. They are still husband and wife.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Maybe porn won't lead that person to look for the porn star. But how many ill conceived ideas have we seen on this site often times born out of porn. Such as wanting another man to have sex with their wife? and such. To say it doesn't effect the user ignores a lot of science as well as a lot of antcedotal evidence we see right here.





Diana7 said:


> The trouble is that when you watch porn you fill your mind with countless images which are then there for ever. I would hate to have my mind full of this stuff and know that it can't be cancelled out.


I completely agree with both points, that porn can/does have an impact in many ways, most negative. I was only answering @lifeistooshort about the bonding aspect as well as the question, if porn use is okay for meeting a man's sexual needs, then why isn't it okay for a woman to meet her emotional needs by talking to other men. They are two completely different things. The will be no bond created to anyone in particular by masturbating to porn and little impact on the bond between the man and woman, but there will definitely be a bond formed between a woman and a man discussing deeply emotional topics.

I used porn for years and it never reduced my bond with my wife. I do think in hind sight it did nothing good for my relationship either. After a while it just became habit, something to do while bored. As I've gotten older it did start to have some other effects on me. That combined with other factors turned me off to porn.


Edited to correct calling out wrong person


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> It could be a problem for your children. There’s a natural pace in which children should learn about sexuality. Having porn around the house increases the chance that kids will be exposed to things they are not ready for and this could cause actual developmental problems. There are documented cases of elementary school kids with the characteristics of porn addiction…. look it up. It’s horribly sad.


I remember as a child finding my dad's porn stash. I knew even then that it wasn't what I wanted if I ever got married.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

crashdawg said:


> So you see no difference between a partner seeking outside attention and exposing both of you to outside violence and bad health
> 
> And
> 
> ...


I think it's sad that a couple feel the need to use porn to improve their sex lives. There are other ways that dont involve bringing others into the marriage.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

BURNT KEP said:


> When you live in a sexless marriage what options are there?


Masturbation without porn? Divorce?


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> This is a valid criticism because my post left out very important specifics.
> 
> I'm not meaning relationships where the sex is dwindling. I'm talking about when one spouse says, that's it, I don't want to have sex again. The other spouse tries, works on it, they talk, they go to counseling, and the spouse simply says, "I don't want to have sex with you any more." A marriage takes TWO PEOPLE. In the scenario of which I'm speaking, there is only one person trying and the other has unilaterally changed the relationship and will not budge. It's rare that it comes to that, but we can see from posts on here that it does, in fact, happen. In those scenarios, it is not the person going outside the marriage for sex who has broken the vow; it is the person who has, without discussion, changed the nature of the relationship in a selfish, self-centered way with no regard for the needs or feelings of the other person. It's an extreme, yes, that is fair, but it does happen.
> 
> I'm not going to address your porn claim, because you seem to be bent on pushing porn on people as an unquestioned good and anyone who doesn't like it or doesn't have an interest in it is a frigid prude. I don't see any willingness to discuss other points of view in your posts on this particular issue, so there's not really a point in talking about it with you.


Thank you for elaborating that makes a great deal more sense and in that context I'm in agreement. At that stage the marriage has died and the lack of sex is simply a physical symptom of that death.

As a point of clarity I have no interest in pushing porn for or against. As I've stated multiple times I view it as a tool. For me it's no more good or evil then a hammer or screwdriver. Fix a house or attack a person... hammer doesn't carry a label of good or bad intent, the person using it provides that context.

For me porn was a resource that allowed me to give my wife more in our moments. To others it may become an addiction. No different from one person having the self control for an occasional hand crafted spirit while another requires abstinence and the support of AA to get by.

I don't think you or anyone else is a prude and I'm certainly not here to dictate what others should or shouldn't do within their own marriages. There are a myriad of personalities out there and who they are online, in person, and in private could be very very different. I chose to confront the issues in my marriage head on vs ignoring them and letting them fester. So maybe that choice, or my unconventional response makes me an outlier. If my marriage is secure and the woman I love is happy... so be it.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I love it that you stick your convictions, Diana. It is admirable.
> 
> I will say this, though:
> 
> my wife is married to a man who is a porn user. I dare her to find a better man. Lol. Good luck.


I am sure you are a good man for her being she is ok with porn. 🙂
The best guy for me would never be a porn user because I admire a man's willingness to go against the flow for his convictions. I love that in a guy.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Diana7 said:


> I think it's sad that a couple feel the need to use porn to improve their sex lives. There are other ways that dont involve bringing others into the marriage.


Please take the time to read what I have written. No one outside was brought into my marriage nor has there been any intent to do so. Techniques were learned. Knowledge was gained. Relationship was improved. No different from you reading a self help book or a basketball player seeking a sports clinic to improve their free throw shot.

It's not for you. I get that. But cherry picking and insulting others relationships doesn't help anyone. Especially when others have worked so hard to achieve what came naturally to some couples.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

crashdawg said:


> Thank you for elaborating that makes a great deal more sense and in that context I'm in agreement. At that stage the marriage has died and the lack of sex is simply a physical symptom of that death.
> 
> As a point of clarity I have no interest in pushing porn for or against. As I've stated multiple times I view it as a tool. For me it's no more good or evil then a hammer or screwdriver. Fix a house or attack a person... hammer doesn't carry a label of good or bad intent, the person using it provides that context.
> 
> ...


Now would I rather Mr D used a screwdriver to fix a plug or looked at porn🤔


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

crashdawg said:


> Please take the time to read what I have written. No one outside was brought into my marriage nor has there been any intent to do so. Techniques were learned. Knowledge was gained. Relationship was improved. No different from you reading a self help book or a basketball player seeking a sports clinic to improve their free throw shot.
> 
> It's not for you. I get that. But cherry picking and insulting others relationships doesn't help anyone. Especially when others have worked so hard to achieve what came naturally to some couples.


So who were the people you watched on the porn? Robots maybe?


----------



## Angie?or… (Nov 15, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I completely agree with both points, that porn can/does have an impact in many ways, most negative. I was only answering @farsidejunky about the bonding aspect as well as the question, if porn use is okay for meeting a man's sexual needs, then why isn't it okay for a woman to meet her emotional needs by talking to other men. They are two completely different things. The will be no bond created to anyone in particular by masturbating to porn and little impact on the bond between the man and woman, but there will definitely be a bond formed between a woman and a man discussing deeply emotional topics.
> 
> I used porn for years and it never reduced my bond with my wife. I do think in hind sight it did nothing good for my relationship either. After a while it just became habit, something to do while bored. As I've gotten older it did start to have some other effects on me. That combined with other factors turned me off to porn.


I do agree that porn is not really equivalent to a woman meeting emotional needs with another man. While porn may damage the marital bond in a number of ways, the bond isn’t being transferred to another living breathing human.

I think porn is more equivalent to a woman reading romance or erotic novels in that it can be a negative, neutral or possibly even a positive in a given marriage depending on the feelings and beliefs of the people involved.

Getting physically or emotionally involved with someone of the opposite sex is always a betrayal of the marriage and spouse unless you are in an open marriage.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Lol. It’s funny how it works here, right? Also, every woman on TAM (or wife of male TAM member) orgasms from PIV. Every. Single. One.
> 
> even though the general population of women is only 30% that orgasm from PIV.
> 
> ...


TAM members are self-selecting to be the best of the best of the best!! Or the worst of the worst, depending on the topic. Accounting for both groups, TAM probably averages out to statistical averages.

And yes, my wife orgasms from PIV. And yes we've had sex 4 of the past 5 days, and still have the weekend ahead so we may reach 6x.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

crashdawg said:


> So the vow is null and void simply because it's not a physical relationship? All this posturing and protection of the sacred vows and the moment there's no sex it's now invalidated? Please elaborate. That sounds like a convenient excuse to avoid the work of repairing a difficult relationship (and it IS a LOT of work). I can see it contributing to the end of a marriage but not without both parties simply giving up.
> 
> No porn, ever, even for educational resources to better our relationship... but hey no sex so it's over we're just roommates now? I gotta hear this one.


I see a spouse imposing a sexless marriage and expecting their spouse to refrain, as sexually immoral. Sexual immorality in the Bible goes beyond adultery, but that is usually what people bring up as grounds for divorce.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> I am sure you are a good man for her being she is ok with porn. 🙂
> The best guy for me would never be a porn user because I admire a man's willingness to go against the flow for his convictions. I love that in a guy.


It all comes down to shared values, doesn't it?


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> TAM members are self-selecting to be the best of the best of the best!! Or the worst of the worst, depending on the topic. Accounting for both groups, TAM probably averages out to statistical averages.
> 
> And yes, my wife orgasms from PIV. And yes we've had sex 4 of the past 5 days, and still have the weekend ahead so we may reach 6x.


@Married but Happy, that is awesome. 

That's my TAM!!!! Always bustin' up typical human statistics! 😂 


I keep waiting to see just one other member here have the balls (or ladyballs) admit no orgasm from PIV. I swear I am the only TAM member willing to admit it. My wife is a part of the 70% of women that do not. She loves her orgasms, but we have to do it other ways. Somehow, Every single woman on TAM and every guy on TAM has a wife/gf that orgasms from PIV. It is a Christmas miracle.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Diana7 said:


> So who were the people you watched on the porn? Robots maybe?


Based on that definition you bring people into your bedroom any time a tv or computer is on. For that matter an author visits you every time you open a book. It's a unique perspective I'll give you that.

And to answer your question... birdhouses... I use screwdrivers and hammers and many other tools to build and repair bird houses. Screwdrivers make it easy to pry boards apart. My wife an I love nature and winter eventually gives way to spring.

I've never looked at a screwdriver in a sexual context nor do I intend to start. I don't derive pleasure from pain. To each their own.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It all comes down to shared values, doesn't it?


It absolutely does. 

I need to also say that I've addressed this with my wife quite often to make sure she hasn't changed her mind. Her answer? She is thankful for porn or else I would ask her for sex 5 times a day instead of just 2. 

She also will watch porn sparingly. She has never had an issue with it. 

If she truly wanted me to stop watching and using, she knows EXACTLY what to do to accomplish that. It is all well within her power to do so.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> For various reasons there are marriages where there can't be sex and they don't fall apart. They are still husband and wife.


The important word in your statement there is "can't." If it's "can't," that's very different from "won't."


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I keep waiting to see just one other member here have the balls (or ladyballs) admit no orgasm from PIV. I swear I am the only TAM member willing to admit it. My wife is a part of the 70% of women that do not. She loves her orgasms, but we have to do it other ways.


Not really I have posted it many times, although my wife is 100% from PIV + vibrator simultaneously so most times we do that.

I would say if she is on top for PIV she is maybe 50-50 depending on how motivated she is even with no vibrator.

When I posted this I had one of your statistical outliers tell me that means my wife doesn’t find me sexually attractive because she always had PIV orgasms 100% of the time and so did everyone else she knew. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

LATERILUS79 said:


> @Married but Happy, that is awesome.
> 
> That's my TAM!!!! Always bustin' up typical human statistics! 😂
> 
> ...


Your admission is not only fascinating it quite literally proves my point. If a spouse is in the same situation as you... Their partner has specific desires but lacks the self confidence to express those desires openly then where else does one learn how to deliver? End goal in that context isn't self gratification it's heightening the experience for the one you love. If all the man knows is "stick it in and pray" then there's likely a lot of unsatisfied women out there.

Then again I'm still shocked that oral was illegal for some of American history.

Or to put it another way how many men have watched online cooking videos? How many women have watched how-to fix it videos for everything from air in tires to putting oil in the car? Information is out there, up to the individual if they wish to seek it out.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> @Married but Happy, that is awesome.
> I keep waiting to see just one other member here have the balls (or ladyballs) admit no orgasm from PIV. I swear I am the only TAM member willing to admit it. My wife is a part of the 70% of women that do not. She loves her orgasms, but we have to do it other ways. Somehow, Every single woman on TAM and every guy on TAM has a wife/gf that orgasms from PIV. It is a Christmas miracle.


It took us over 16 years to do it and it only really works in one position and not every single time. Generally, I would have to say my wife isn't getting there with PIV.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

crashdawg said:


> Please take the time to read what I have written. No one outside was brought into my marriage nor has there been any intent to do so. Techniques were learned. Knowledge was gained. Relationship was improved. No different from you reading a self help book or a basketball player seeking a sports clinic to improve their free throw shot.
> 
> It's not for you. I get that. But cherry picking and insulting others relationships doesn't help anyone. Especially when others have worked so hard to achieve what came naturally to some couples.


I think the websites like better sex.com etc. that has 2 people having intercourse in a teaching type scenario where another is narrating while the 2 are displaying the procedures could have a place for couples with problems in their sexual relationship. It 

My wife thinks I am a sexual god, but what I learned was from reading or YouTube videos by sex therapists that had demonstrations but without an actual naked female being demonstrated on. I read all the time to expand my abilities to take my wife to next level of extasy...to continue to blow her mind. Most times she gets to bucking it is like steer wrestling. Good thing we no longer have a waterbed, I would need a surf board with the waves she makes. 

I learned the process for squirting orgasm from a therapist on YouTube. 
Left wife in a crying disoriented heap clinging to me and repeating, "OMG!...OMG! You didn't do anything different!.... But it was different!"

I just held her and thought... that's what you think!😉 

Yes ma'am... you are welcome!😎😁


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

LATERILUS79 said:


> It absolutely does.
> 
> I need to also say that I've addressed this with my wife quite often to make sure she hasn't changed her mind. Her answer? She is thankful for porn or else I would ask her for sex 5 times a day instead of just 2.
> 
> ...


The key is mutual respect, understanding, and open communication. Bravo both for honesty and for your willingness to work together. Your willingness to stop if asked shows that your wife is your priority! Again not everyone can do that... but you found an outlet that works for the two of you and that's amazing!

To Texas mom's point, it's shared values, respect, and open communication between the couple irrespective of the opinions of outside society and religion. Everyone is different and each successful couple finds the balance that works for them.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> So who were the people you watched on the porn? Robots maybe?


In the same way women get into mommy porn like SOG. The images are in their head and can be more real and vivid than a photograph. I know of 2 women who were into it and hubbys was good with their new hypersexual wives reading it. I said it would bother me as wife is using hubby as a living flesh dildo while screwing Christian Grey/Gray? in her mind. 

Was not long before both hypersexual wives were having affairs with other dudes. Tell me again how that went for you with your wives fantasizing about screwing hot Fboys?


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> Not really I have posted it many times, although my wife is 100% from PIV + vibrator simultaneously so most times we do that.
> 
> I would say if she is on top for PIV she is maybe 50-50 depending on how motivated she is even with no vibrator.
> 
> When I posted this I had one of your statistical outliers tell me that means my wife doesn’t find me sexually attractive because she always had PIV orgasms 100% of the time and so did everyone else she knew. 🤷‍♂️


😂. CC, that was a long winded way for you to say you are a part of the TAM crew!


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

crashdawg said:


> Your admission is not only fascinating it quite literally proves my point. If a spouse is in the same situation as you... Their partner has specific desires but lacks the self confidence to express those desires openly then where else does one learn how to deliver? End goal in that context isn't self gratification it's heightening the experience for the one you love. If all the man knows is "stick it in and pray" then there's likely a lot of unsatisfied women out there.
> 
> Then again I'm still shocked that oral was illegal for some of American history.
> 
> Or to put it another way how many men have watched online cooking videos? How many women have watched how-to fix it videos for everything from air in tires to putting oil in the car? Information is out there, up to the individual if they wish to seek it out.


I don’t know what point of yours I was proving, but I’ll take your word for it. My wife and I talk about this many times over the years. I keep myself fit to do whatever angle she wants. I’ll try any sort of technique. It is a no-go. Gotta use other methods. Such is life.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Most of the men on here don't seem to think that extracurricular sex is a reason for a woman to divorce because sex doesn't mean anything. So if a woman is having extracurricular sex, and sex doesn't mean anything, would you divorce your wife if you found out that she was having one night stands on a regular basis?


I don’t know where you are getting that. 

I don’t know if I have ever seen a man here tell a BW to just suck it up and accept it. I don’t think I’ve seen that once.

The advice is pretty universal to start pack’n or to toss him out.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Divinely Favored said:


> I think the websites like better sex.com etc. that has 2 people having intercourse in a teaching type scenario where another is narrating while the 2 are displaying the procedures could have a place for couples with problems in their sexual relationship. It
> 
> My wife thinks I am a sexual god, but what I learned was from reading or YouTube videos by sex therapists that had demonstrations but without an actual naked female being demonstrated on. I read all the time to expand my abilities to take my wife to next level of extasy...to continue to blow her mind. Most times she gets to bucking it is like steer wrestling. Good thing we no longer have a waterbed, I would need a surf board with the waves she makes.
> 
> ...


Correct.. so now do we begin to cherry pick what we do and don't consider porn? Is it a solid definition... ancient porn like the statue of David and paintings in the Sistine Chapel is now art even though Mickey pained a cardinal having his genitals gored by a snake... but it's art... like 3 naked muses dancing in a circle... pure art now... hey look Venus goddess of love... art right? What about those sex ed videos (some are on pornhub) or the book a gay man wrote to help people give better oral? For that matter easiest way to get better giving oral to a woman, ask a lesbian... but that's erotic so it's porn right? Does porn require photos and/or video or do we stop at words? Asking for a friend.

Is this sorting and selecting a way to comfortably achieve a personal moral high ground while ignoring the comments and opinions of others because this specific thing isn't porn to that specific individual? Or is it a scientific sorting? Maybe a cultural or religious one. So many options, so much potential porn... 

There's this moral taboo of not talking about porn and every generation has very specific thoughts on what is and isn't in that category. It's as comical as it is uncomfortable. I'm confident many will quickly scroll past then secretly come back and read it later.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> It is amazing what kids are exposed to in today's media, at the malls, even billboards.


You should've been a fly on the wall when I had the porn talk with my boys 😅

I told them that I didn't know what they looked at and didn't want to know, but I thought they should know that it infects computers with viruses, she probably doesn't like it, and its a poor representation of intimate relatiions.

Probably not something you want to hear from your mother but I don't trust their father to do it and we're close so they listen to me.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> You should've been a fly on the wall when I had the porn talk with my boys 😅
> 
> I told them that I didn't know what they looked at and didn't want to know, but I thought they should know that it infects computers with viruses, she probably doesn't like it, and its a poor representation of intimate relatiions.
> 
> Probably not something you want to hear from your mother but I don't trust their father to do it and we're close so they listen to me.


I find this extremely interesting.

I’ve been contemplating your “daughter question” from your original post. I’m gonna answer that tonight when I get a chance as I think it is a very fair question and I do have a daughter.

I am curious - why take the stance of “don’t ask, don’t tell” with your sons? First of all, let me say that I personally think this is completely fine in my opinion. I see nothing wrong with it. Secondly, is this an ok stance to take with a daughter in your opinion?


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I completely agree with both points, that porn can/does have an impact in many ways, most negative. I was only answering @farsidejunky about the bonding aspect as well as the question, if porn use is okay for meeting a man's sexual needs, then why isn't it okay for a woman to meet her emotional needs by talking to other men. They are two completely different things. The will be no bond created to anyone in particular by masturbating to porn and little impact on the bond between the man and woman, but there will definitely be a bond formed between a woman and a man discussing deeply emotional topics.
> 
> I used porn for years and it never reduced my bond with my wife. I do think in hind sight it did nothing good for my relationship either. After a while it just became habit, something to do while bored. As I've gotten older it did start to have some other effects on me. That combined with other factors turned me off to porn.


To add to this, I also think one who does use porn needs to be very mindful of the fact that it can be a slippery slope as far as what one requires.

We see this regularly here....people looking to spice things up. There's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to be adventurous with your partner but porn can plant ideas that you wouldn't have otherwise considered and may not be welcomed by your spouse.

I remember a male poster here a long time ago who said that when he first started having PIV sex it was great. Then porn became more accessible and after a bit the sex that had made him happy was no longer enough. Why couldn't he have anal? Oral? It became problematic for him.

Once again I'm not saying those are bad things when enjoyed by both or that many people can't seperate porn from real life because many can. I'm saying that porn can make the viewer more difficult to please and that may not work for the spouse.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I find this extremely interesting.
> 
> I’ve been contemplating your “daughter question” from your original post. I’m gonna answer that tonight when I get a chance as I think it is a very fair question and I do have a daughter.
> 
> I am curious - why take the stance of “don’t ask, don’t tell” with your sons? First of all, let me say that I personally think this is completely fine in my opinion. I see nothing wrong with it. Secondly, is this an ok stance to take with a daughter in your opinion?


I was only taking the position that I'm not going to pry details out of them because I don't want to stick my nose in to the point that they won't talk to me.

Throughout their teen years I did keep an eye on what they did and their online conversations. They're mostly gamers anyway, teens are gonna teen sp battles must be picked.

I think the goal is safety and the foundation for healthy relationships. And they're both technically grown men now....21 and 18...wo I try to keep a light touch and weild influence where I think it's needed.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> I was only taking the position that I'm not going to pry details out of them because I don't want to stick my nose in to the point that they won't talk to me.
> 
> Throughout their teen years I did keep an eye on what they did and their online conversations. They're mostly gamers anyway, teens are gonna teen sp battles must be picked.
> 
> I think the goal is safety and the foundation for healthy relationships. And they're both technically grown men now....21 and 18...wo I try to keep a light touch and weild influence where I think it's needed.


Agreed. I personally like your approach. I think the other dangers that you’ve told them is being a responsible parent even if they are technically adults. Even still, you are doing a “don’t ask, don’t tell”.

one of my main talking points with my kids will be the same. I will be heavily involved while they are children in my house. I can handle porn. I can dissociate it from real life. I prefer my wife every time to porn. It is a tool for me, nothing more. When my wife has sex with me every day, I don’t use it.

I don’t expect children to make the same conclusions as me.

once they are technically adults, I will employ the same tactics you are using.

are these tactics also good enough for daughters? If not, why?


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> 😂. CC, that was a long winded way for you to say you are a part of the TAM crew!


Ah was it? I guess I didn’t overtly say it but every other way or PIV short of her manually stimulating herself is ZERO.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> Ah was it? I guess I didn’t overtly say it but every other way or PIV short of her manually stimulating herself is ZERO.


😂. TAM kills me. I swear I have the worst reading comprehension on this site.

I am a simple man. I need simple words and explanations. I still have no clue what you are saying.
I honestly cannot tell from your words if your wife can orgasm from PIV or not. Dead serious.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> 😂. TAM kills me. I swear I have the worst reading comprehension on this site.
> 
> I am a simple man. I need simple words and explanations. I still have no clue what you are saying.
> I honestly cannot tell from your words if your wife can orgasm from PIV or not. Dead serious.


Just the D her on top 50% if motivated (so yes, she can do it, the last time she did this was December 2021).
Just the D any other position, 0%
D + vibrator any position 100%
D + hand(s) any position 50% max


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> Just the D her on top 50% if motivated
> Just the D any other position, 0%
> D + vibrator any position 100%
> D + hand(s) any position 50% max


Thank you. I understand.

you still fall within My TAM 99.9% statistic of all women orgasming from PIV. Lol. I am still the only member without. 😂


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Thank you. I understand.
> 
> you still fall within My TAM 99.9% statistic of all women orgasming from PIV. Lol. I am still the only member without. 😂


I don’t think so. I wouldn’t say she regularly does. She usually doesn’t want to be on top, so without something else it won’t happen, and even if she does want to be on top sometimes the juice isn’t worth the squeeze for her.

In contrast I’d say the TAM lore is 95% of the time she has one. I’m saying for me that number drops to 0% for say plain missionary she will never have one from PIV only without toys or hands.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> I don’t think so. I wouldn’t say she regularly does. She usually doesn’t want to be on top, so without something else it won’t happen, and even if she does want to be on top sometimes the juice isn’t worth the squeeze for her.
> 
> In contrast I’d say the TAM lore is 95% of the time she has one. I’m saying for me that number drops to 0% for say plain missionary she will never have one from PIV only without toys or hands.


Still a big difference from NEVER having a PIV orgasm. That’s my point. TAM lore makes things difficult to believe when people talk here.

it’s the same for these porn threads. Are there guys here that don’t watch porn? Yes.

are there women here that require their men to not watch? Yes.

TAM lore makes it seem like this is the majority. That is laughable and we all know it.

the majority of men here watch porn - and they are married. That means that either 1. Their spouses won’t divorce them over it. 2. They don’t know that their husband watches it even though they think that he doesn’t.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Angie?or… said:


> I do agree that porn is not really equivalent to a woman meeting emotional needs with another man. While porn may damage the marital bond in a number of ways, the bond isn’t being trans to another living breathing human.
> 
> I think porn is more equivalent to a woman reading romance or erotic novels in that it can be a negative, neutral or possibly even a positive in a given marriage depending on the feelings and beliefs of the people involved.
> 
> Getting physically or emotionally involved with someone of the opposite sex is always a betrayal of the marriage and spouse unless you are in an open marriage.


I vehemently disagree that getting off to porn is the same as reading a book.

Not in the same universe.


----------



## Angie?or… (Nov 15, 2021)

I didn’t say it is the same, @Livvie because I don’t think it is the same either. I simply meant that both have some potential to either eroticize or harm a marriage. I believe porn is more dangerous, and the industry is sleazier

I think porn has more potential to be addictive and to harm the marital bond. I was a huge fan of romance novels when I was younger, and for me, they tended to stimulate my appetite for my husband. Common wisdom in those days was that romance consumers had more sex than other women. And I always imagined the hero as my husband. Downside was I tended to expect him to act like the men in the books, which is as unrealistic as men expecting their wives to enjoy everything they see porn stars doing for money.

I hope and believe my husband doesn’t use porn. It would hurt me, turn me off, and cost him some of my respect. I don’t think me reading romances affected him that way. 

But at least one person here on TAM has a wife who prefers her novels to him and uses them to shut him out. So I think there are some parallels.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Angie?or… said:


> But at least one person here on TAM has a wife who prefers her novels to him and uses them to shut him out. So I think there are some parallels.


I understand the analogy you're making and it's a logical one, however, I think the difference between porn and a romance novel is the difference between shooting a bullet and throwing it.


----------



## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

LATERILUS79 said:


> you still fall within My TAM 99.9% statistic of all women orgasming from PIV. Lol. I am still the only member without. 😂


My wife has orgasmed once with just plain PIV with nothing else. Now with PIV + hand or vibrator that goes to 100%.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> TAM lore makes it seem like this is the majority. That is laughable and we all know it.


It IS the internet. We're all supermodel kazillionaire sex ninjas married to other supermodel kazillionaire sex ninjas on the internet. 😋 😉😁


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I don’t know where you are getting that.
> 
> I don’t know if I have ever seen a man here tell a *BW* to just suck it up and accept it. I don’t think I’ve seen that once.
> 
> The advice is pretty universal to start pack’n or to toss him out.


Betrayal implies there was lying. Orgies, threesomes, swapping, swinging, strip clubs, hookers... if sex is meaningless and wives shouldn't "take it personally" then are men the same way?

NOTE: It's not an accusation, it's a question. If it's ok for a dude to have threesomes with his wife and another woman or go to a sex party and have sex with other women or one night stands, is it ok for a woman to bring another dude home or go to a sex party or have one night stands and all that?


----------



## Angie?or… (Nov 15, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I understand the analogy you're making and it's a logical one, however, I think the difference between porn and a romance novel is the difference between shooting a bullet and throwing it.


Fair enough. I would say a bullet and a bow and arrow maybe. I do believe porn is more dangerous. I personally hate it, but I’m trying to be fair and see the other side.

I felt like some people were saying porn was equivalent to an EA, and I don’t think that is true, either.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I understand the analogy you're making and it's a logical one, however, I think the difference between porn and a romance novel is the difference between shooting a bullet and throwing it.


That just made me think of shooting a bullet with a gun, or using it with a slingshot.

No real tying it to the analogy but the slingshot use came to me almost instantaneously. 

Nevermind 👍🙂


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Thank you. I understand.
> 
> you still fall within My TAM 99.9% statistic of all women orgasming from PIV. Lol. I am still the only member without. 😂


So the first hit I got on google was:

_Between *70 percent to 90 percent* of women are unable to achieve orgasm with penetration alone, Whelihan said. "Of those that claim they can have purely vaginal orgasms, 90 percent of them say they have to be on top," she added._

Without reading into the link my wife would fall into the 90% of the people who can (30% max) who have to be on top. That doesn’t mean she does though and if you asked her in a survey I don’t know what she’d say. Would she say yes or no? It depends on how you ask.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Just wanted to throw out that I appreciate the generally thoughtful and respectful atmosphere.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Angie?or… said:


> I do agree that porn is not really equivalent to a woman meeting emotional needs with another man. While porn may damage the marital bond in a number of ways, the bond isn’t being transferred to another living breathing human.
> 
> I think porn is more equivalent to a woman reading romance or erotic novels in that it can be a negative, neutral or possibly even a positive in a given marriage depending on the feelings and beliefs of the people involved.
> 
> Getting physically or emotionally involved with someone of the opposite sex is always a betrayal of the marriage and spouse unless you are in an open marriage.


I tend to agree to an extent, but I would far rather that a spouse would read a book than watch porn so in that way I cant quite put them on the same level. For me porn would be similar to an emotional affair in its seriousness.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> So the first hit I got on google was:
> 
> _Between *70 percent to 90 percent* of women are unable to achieve orgasm with penetration alone, Whelihan said. "Of those that claim they can have purely vaginal orgasms, 90 percent of them say they have to be on top," she added._
> 
> Without reading into the link my wife would fall into the 90% of the people who can (30% max) who have to be on top. That doesn’t mean she does though and if you asked her in a survey I don’t know what she’d say. Would she say yes or no? It depends on how you ask.


Like I said, TAM is a Christmas miracle. Somehow, some way every female TAM member and every wife of male TAM members fit into that 10%-30% category. Isn’t that amazing?! 😂

please note - I am not talking about “well, it doesn’t happen every time or it’s only happened once or it just now started to happen after 16 years”.

no.

even the article you posted says “UNABLE”. That doesn’t mean sometimes. That doesn’t mean it happened once. That means it doesn’t happen….. at all.


unless you are a TAM sex champion!!!


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> I tend to agree to an extent, but I would far rather that a spouse would read a book than watch porn so in that way I cant quite put them on the same level. For me porn would be similar to an emotional affair in its seriousness.


So again, it's about values. Some women aren't bothered by it. Some women aren't bothered by extracurricular sex. I've known women who were fine if their husbands got their sex elsewhere as long as they still got access to his money. You have to marry someone with the same values. It's when two people who have different values get married that things become a problem.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Betrayal implies there was lying. Orgies, threesomes, swapping, swinging, strip clubs, hookers... if sex is meaningless and wives shouldn't "take it personally" then are men the same way?
> 
> NOTE: It's not an accusation, it's a question. If it's ok for a dude to have threesomes with his wife and another woman or go to a sex party and have sex with other women or one night stands, is it ok for a woman to bring another dude home or go to a sex party or have one night stands and all that?


If all parties agree to it and are ok with it, then it is all between consenting adults. 

I’m still not seeing the relevance.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> If all parties agree to it and are ok with it, then it is all between consenting adults.
> 
> I’m still not seeing the relevance.


You know, I had a whole big reply typed out, but honestly, it was a jumble of words. I need to think about it more I guess so I can form a question/statement that makes sense to someone other than me. I don't want to start a fight, I was honestly trying to explain why extracurricular sex by men hurts women even though men say it's meaningless but I'm not able to articulate it in any kind of lucid way. Can I get a mulligan on this one?


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> So again, it's about values. Some women aren't bothered by it. Some women aren't bothered by extracurricular sex. I've known women who were fine if their husbands got their sex elsewhere as long as they still got access to his money. You have to marry someone with the same values. It's when two people who have different values get married that things become a problem.


LIfeistooshort asked for this thread not to go down the moral route, but some folks are going to steer it that way no matter what. Such is life.

I like her original questions here in the thread. They are thought provoking. I think some are going to heavily defend porn because of the moral issue.

@Diana7 would prefer if a spouse read a book instead. I take this as she would prefer this to happen in a marriage other than her own. Her rules for her marriage make sense, but they don’t make sense for mine.

which gets me back to the staunch defense that some are going to use. No one wants to think they are a bad person. It makes friendly relationships more difficult. Even though I am loyal to a fault and have been a pretty damn good husband to my wife, a good provider and great father, there is a certain “level” that I will be judged to for using porn. A “less than” determination.

I can live with that. There are things far worse than porn that happen in marriages and relationships that I read about on TAM all the time. If I can’t associate with someone for porn use, so be it. I don’t think less of that person and I certainly don’t think less of myself. It has not hurt my relationship until my wife tells me that it has - and in 20 straight years, that hasn’t happened yet. I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> So the first hit I got on google was:
> 
> _Between *70 percent to 90 percent* of women are unable to achieve orgasm with penetration alone, Whelihan said. "Of those that claim they can have purely vaginal orgasms, 90 percent of them say they have to be on top," she added._
> 
> Without reading into the link my wife would fall into the 90% of the people who can (30% max) who have to be on top. That doesn’t mean she does though and if you asked her in a survey I don’t know what she’d say. Would she say yes or no? It depends on how you ask.


Yep. I can sometimes achieve orgasm with PIV but not as usual. That's why I'm skeptical when we get the dead bedrooms and the men claim the women are orgasming each and every time (even though they are basically just sticking it in) but the wife only wants sex 1/month.

I feel like they don't recognize and orgasm and their wife might be faking.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I understand the analogy you're making and it's a logical one, however, I think the difference between porn and a romance novel is the difference between shooting a bullet and throwing it.


As someone who has seen porn and read erotic litirature, I can tell you that the literature can take you much further into a sexual experience. By contrast porn would seem like a cheap thrill.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Yep. I can sometimes achieve orgasm with PIV but not as usual. That's why I'm skeptical when we get the dead bedrooms and the men claim the women are orgasming each and every time (even though they are basically just sticking it in) but the wife only wants sex 1/month.
> 
> *I feel like they don't recognize and orgasm* and their wife might be faking.


There might be some confirmation bias. 😉 PIV orgasm is not the norm. It certainly isn't the first one, the engine has to already be running and revved up to 11 a few times and then it can happen at the end. But again, we're all supermodel kazillionaire sex ninjas here on the internet.


----------



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

crashdawg said:


> So it went from anti porn and abstaining from porn *to producing homemade porn*? Or does the title of wife supersede the arguments of someone else's daughter?


----------



## Quad73 (May 10, 2021)

Livvie said:


> I vehemently disagree that getting off to porn is the same as reading a book.
> 
> Not in the same universe.


What if the book is by the Marquis de Sade etc. and the porn is a photo of a topless woman in Playboy? 

Porn is a spectrum, and choice is the key. My W and I dislike quite a lot of porn and don't go near it, regardless of medium.

The most foul porn I've ever run across, online or off, in my entire life, is a book someone left at my parents' house. I have no idea how it wasn't banned from publication. I was 15 years old, curious, snuck in a few pages in and nearly puked. Any s&m video you could dig up on the Hub would have been hilarious by comparison.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

LATERILUS79 said:


> @Married but Happy, that is awesome.
> 
> That's my TAM!!!! Always bustin' up typical human statistics! 😂
> 
> ...


Dated a number of women who did not orgasm from PIV. Dated a 37 year old that had NEVER had an orgasm. Wife #2 did not orgasm from PIV. Standard go to was insertion than incorporating a Hitachi Magic Wand. Add electronics to the mix and she could string out 7 orgasms in a row. Was kind of amazing to watch frankly.

For that matter I have never had consistent orgasms from PIV. Don't know if that is due to my DE (delayed ejaculation), or whatever other friggin' problems I've had with my crotch over the years.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Deejo said:


> Dated a number of women who did not orgasm from PIV. Dated a 37 year old that had NEVER had an orgasm. Wife #2 did not orgasm from PIV. Standard go to was insertion than incorporating a Hitachi Magic Wand. Add electronics to the mix and she could string out 7 orgasms in a row. Was kind of amazing to watch frankly.
> 
> For that matter I have never had consistent orgasms from PIV. Don't know if that is due to my DE (delayed ejaculation), or whatever other friggin' problems I've had with my crotch over the years.


Much appreciated for the honesty, Deejo.

I’ve only had one partner, so I have no clue what this feels like to be with a gal that gets off from PIV (and assuming my marriage stays intact, I never will which is fine).

yes, our toybox is extensive and gives her a variety of ways to orgasm during PIV or otherwise.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Like I said, TAM is a Christmas miracle. Somehow, some way every female TAM member and every wife of male TAM members fit into that 10%-30% category. Isn’t that amazing?!


I can’t speak for others but it is what it is.

On my quit it app I reset the clock for porn a few months ago and it was around 190 days. I am not tracking it currently and I also gave up on tracking booze. So I have many flaws still don’t worry!


----------



## Dakota_Darling (11 mo ago)

Livvie said:


> Not a marriage, but I was in a long term 5 plus year relationship and he was a porn user despite me being up for sex anytime, and he even admitted to me that because he was masturbating regularly his energy and enthusiasm for sex with me was less. His tank was extra empty.
> 
> Masturbation to porn was _a habit_ of his. Some evenings he'd be "too tired" for sex but then after I left for work the next morning (he also wanted to sleep in later than me) he'd masturbate in my bed. WTF. So guess what, then THAT evening he'd already have had an orgasm once that day, and his sexual energy was less for our sexual relationship and for sex. He could have had sex with me either the night before or in the morning, he chose masturbation instead. Yuck. Big turn off. I'm not with him anymore and that's a big reason. This wasn't a one off, it was an ongoing situation with him. Enjoy your masturbation, buddy, hope it's satisfying!!!
> 
> I'll never tolerate a habitual masturbator again. I'm in my 50s so especially with men in the age range I will be pairing with, alot of masturbation is definitely going to dampen his fire and desire for actual sex. It's not like a 20 year old who can masturbate all of the time and still have fire left for a lot of sex, too. If he's spending a lot of his passion and sexual energy on porn then he can keep in doing that, I'm out!!!


This is whats happening with me and my husband, this might be weird to some but I'm 17 turn 18 in May and he's just turned 21. I told him it's not that I dislike him touching himself, that's ok, but if he's looking at other women (mainly the male povs) of course I'm gonna get insecure. It's always the same type of women who look NOTHING like me. He works construction and will refuse to use the restroom in the outhouse there but for an hour at lunch he'll go there to wank off? And when we finally do have sex he'll stare at my vagina which I'm okay with, but when I asked him about the porn he says 'I like close ups'. I can tell when hes done it as well because just as you said hes either too tired or lasts a whole hour. It's like he wants to get off at a certain moment and I'm no longer desirable, just a cook and house cleaner. I know its not me, I've even been to doctors. And when I confronted him for the second time he yelled at me and said 'Well if you don't wanna see sh*t you don't like then don't go f*cking snooping.' There's a whole other side to our relationship and it's not the best at this point but this is the part that hurts the most. I wish I was as strong as you lol!


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

This thread inspired me so I added it to the clock, will report results back here.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Dakota_Darling said:


> This is whats happening with me and my husband, this might be weird to some but I'm 17 turn 18 in May and he's just turned 21. I told him it's not that I dislike him touching himself, that's ok, but if he's looking at other women (mainly the male povs) of course I'm gonna get insecure. It's always the same type of women who look NOTHING like me. He works construction and will refuse to use the restroom in the outhouse there but for an hour at lunch he'll go there to wank off? And when we finally do have sex he'll stare at my vagina which I'm okay with, but when I asked him about the porn he says 'I like close ups'. I can tell when hes done it as well because just as you said hes either too tired or lasts a whole hour. It's like he wants to get off at a certain moment and I'm no longer desirable, just a cook and house cleaner. I know its not me, I've even been to doctors. And when I confronted him for the second time he yelled at me and said 'Well if you don't wanna see sh*t you don't like then don't go f*cking snooping.' There's a whole other side to our relationship and it's not the best at this point but this is the part that hurts the most. I wish I was as strong as you lol!


Perhaps you should rethink this marriage. He doesn't sound very loving. You are awful young to be married.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You know, I had a whole big reply typed out, but honestly, it was a jumble of words. I need to think about it more I guess so I can form a question/statement that makes sense to someone other than me. I don't want to start a fight, I was honestly trying to explain why extracurricular sex by men hurts women even though men say it's meaningless but I'm not able to articulate it in any kind of lucid way. Can I get a mulligan on this one?


This also sounds like a question worthy of its own thread LOL. 

I think I’m connecting the dots a little better on what you’re getting at now.

This is my best feeble attempt. 

For starters, it’s just a cheaters attempt at rugsweeping in hopes she will just forget about it and life can go back to normal.

It’s the male equivalent to a WW saying she hadn’t planned it and one thing lead to another but everything is ok now. 

But in a guy’s mind, sex may be a critical component and a major way for him to bond in a committed relationship. 

But not all sexual experiences lead to that particular kind of bonding and a guy can have sex with someone he would never intend to marry or even really date. 

And since he doesn’t place a lot of relationship significance on that sexual experience, he tries to gaslight the BW into thinking that as well.

And since guys know women place a lot of significance on emotional connection, part of that rugsweeping will be to downplay any emotional connection to OW.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

LATERILUS79 said:


> LIfeistooshort asked for this thread not to go down the moral route, but some folks are going to steer it that way no matter what. Such is life.
> 
> I like her original questions here in the thread. They are thought provoking. I think some are going to heavily defend porn because of the moral issue.
> 
> ...


I find the entire conversation fascinating. Porn is a taboo subject in most circles. The name alone makes some individuals uncomfortable. Even in this thread I'm told not to ask questions, that I'm actively ignored because my perspective differs from others.

All that matters is my vow and my devotion to the one I love. My love of my wife convinced me to be a better man, for her. It convinced me to seek out ways to improve on her experience. That's love. That's devotion. I honestly don't care about labels or about the ignorance and indifference of strangers. I care deeply about my marriage and my wife. Porn is a tool for me, no more, no less. Watching others quickly split hairs into good and bad for their own comfort is neither informative nor productive.Each couple has their own unique relationship. That deserves respect.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

ccpowerslave said:


> This thread inspired me so I added it to the clock, will report results back here.
> 
> View attachment 83547


Is it like a cuss jar? Are there diff amounts for audio, book, photo and video? Is there a 50% discount if your spouse approves or a 200% penalty if you're sneaking it?

Sooooo many questions!


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> This also sounds like a question worthy of its own thread LOL.
> 
> I think I’m connecting the dots a little better on what you’re getting at now.
> 
> ...


My grandfather once told me “all cats are grey in the dark.” (It’s not as creepy as it sounds, he was telling me about valuing myself and not letting men gaslight me with lies, ironic since he cheated on my grandmother). That a man can have sex with one woman and have it mean something and have sex with someone else while in that relationship and it doesn’t mean anything (“it’s different cause I luurve you) is something no one will ever convince me is true. Now that I’m with my husband, sex is something we share. If he had sex with someone else, it means 1. I am no longer attractive and. 2. He lied and it never meant anything.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> So again, it's about values. Some women aren't bothered by it. Some women aren't bothered by extracurricular sex. I've known women who were fine if their husbands got their sex elsewhere as long as they still got access to his money. You have to marry someone with the same values. It's when two people who have different values get married that things become a problem.


Absolutely. Its not always easy to find someone with the same values but its worth it if you do.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

crashdawg said:


> Is it like a cuss jar? Are there diff amounts for audio, book, photo and video? Is there a 50% discount if your spouse approves or a 200% penalty if you're sneaking it?
> 
> Sooooo many questions!


No it’s just a stopwatch basically. For example I have gone on a walk with my wife rain or shine 439 days in a row uninterrupted now.

So it will count how long I haven’t looked at porn.


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> They are here to boast... if I were having sex twice or three time a day, I would be here boasting too, with a smirk on my face....


Hell, if I were having sex 2 -3x per day, I wouldn't be here at all!!!


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Hell, if I were having sex 2 -3x per day, I wouldn't be here at all!!!


What about 5 times a week? Would that do it?

Asking for a friend.....


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Hell, if I were having sex 2 -3x per day, I wouldn't be here at all!!!


That's my take on it. I've done it on a Saturday but it really doesn't leave time for anything else. Ended up doing all the errands we could on Sunday.

Not a brag. Wife and I are very happy but it requires a lot to maintain that relationship.


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Deejo said:


> Out of curiosity, I just pulled this statistic off of a data aggregator site for Only Fans.
> 
> *Key OnlyFans Statistics for 2022*
> 
> ...


Along those same lines, if you see some webcam stats, some of them have 10k or even 20k viewers from around the world at one time. That's more than some Major League Baseball teams or NHL hockey teams get in attendance for an average game!


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

ccpowerslave said:


> No it’s just a stopwatch basically. For example I have gone on a walk with my wife rain or shine 439 days in a row uninterrupted now.
> 
> So it will count how long I haven’t looked at porn.


As much as I would love the "rain or shine"... winter wins. But once the weather warms I think I'll start tracking walks like you do! That sounds like fun and gives me something to look forward to. Thank you.


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

LATERILUS79 said:


> @Married but Happy, that is awesome.
> 
> That's my TAM!!!! Always bustin' up typical human statistics! 😂
> 
> ...


I'll admit it. My wife only orgasms from clit stimulation (i.e. fingers, using her toy) She has confirmed she has never in her life orgasmed from PIV...with me or her ex.


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I'll admit it. My wife only orgasms from clit stimulation (i.e. fingers, using her toy) She has confirmed she has never in her life orgasmed from PIV...with me or her ex.


Now I will also admit I orgasm from PIV, oral, manual, footjobs, and any other direct contact with my penis that involves some means of friction. Its pretty easy being a guy


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> No doubt this is one of the main dangers of the wide availability of porn and the principle argument for it's prohibition. But currently all that can be done is is strict monitoring of online activity of kids and appropriate use of parental controls on all devices.


It’d sure be nice if at least the hard core stuff could be moved to an xxx domain so it would be easier to protect kids.

There’s a lot of options in-between prohibition and the “leave parents to do all the work” as far as blocking goes.

The industry would probably fight moving to the xxx domain- it’s in their (wicked) favor to get kids hooked young… Big tobacco used the same tactic with our grandparents.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I'll admit it. My wife only orgasms from clit stimulation (i.e. fingers, using her toy) She has confirmed she has never in her life orgasmed from PIV...with me or her ex.


My wife only orgasms with penetration and penis seems to work best, lol. Seriously, she hates anything that vibrates. And judging by how often we do it she is quite happy.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> My grandfather once told me “all cats are grey in the dark.” (It’s not as creepy as it sounds, he was telling me about valuing myself and not letting men gaslight me with lies, ironic since he cheated on my grandmother). That a man can have sex with one woman and have it mean something and have sex with someone else while in that relationship and it doesn’t mean anything (“it’s different cause I luurve you) is something no one will ever convince me is true. Now that I’m with my husband, sex is something we share. If he had sex with someone else, it means 1. I am no longer attractive and. 2. He lied and it never meant anything.


If you are talking about cheating, then it's mostly just rugsweeping and gaslighting to get the BS of their back. 

"It didn't mean anything" coming from a WH is the equivilent to a WW saying, "we only just kissed."

It's an attempt down play what the BS will be most upset about. 

The thing with men in general though is a man's bar for what he needs to have a NSA hook up with someone is vastly different that his bar for being in an exclusive committed relationship and higher yet for marriage and mortgage and children. 
A man's criteria for an NSA hook up that's not going to cost him anything is #1; she has to be willing to hook up with him. 
#2; reasonably physically attractive (to him) and #3; clean and not smell bad. 

But for marriage and family there is a very long laundry list and not many people are going to make the list. 

Men are the gatekeepers of relationships and marriage. Their criteria for an exclusive LTR/marriage can be quite high. 

But men will offer sex like McDonald's offers fries. 

So when a guy gets busted banging some welfare mother with 4 kids from 4 different baby daddys down at the ol' trailer park, He's partially telling the truth that he is not emotionally tied or committed to her. He was just handing her some fries. 
But it's mostly just rugsweeping and gaslighting to try to appease the BW and get her off his back. 

It's analogous to a WW telling her BH that he was "just a friend" and that they were helping each other through some stuff and they only kissed.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Now I will also admit I orgasm from PIV, oral, manual, footjobs, and any other direct contact with my penis that involves some means of friction. Its pretty easy being a guy


This was very brave.

Thank you for serving as an example for us all!


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> But men will offer sex like McDonald's offers fries.


For me it’s more like Burger King, cheaper price per gram and the largest amount.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Now I will also admit I orgasm from PIV, oral, manual, footjobs, and any other direct contact with my penis that involves some means of friction. Its pretty easy being a guy


We all come from the same stem cells and fetal tissue. At certain stage in fetal development those cells and tissues become the penis in a male and vagina and clitoris in a female. The clitoris is same tissue as the head of the penis (and is in fact quite large with most of the tissue internal) in a male and the vagina is the same tissue as the shaft of a penis. 

Theoretically all of those things should produce orgasm in a female as well if enough clitoral tissue is stimulated properly. 

Some sex researchers believe all female orgasms are at least in part clitoral.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> We all come from the same stem cells and fetal tissue. At certain stage in fetal development those cells and tissues become the penis in a male and vagina and clitoris in a female. The clitoris is same tissue as the head of the penis (and is in fact quite large with most of the tissue internal) in a male and the vagina is the same tissue as the shaft of a penis.
> 
> Theoretically all of those things should produce orgasm in a female as well if enough clitoral tissue is stimulated properly.
> 
> Some sex researchers believe all female orgasms are at least in part clitoral.


We all start off life as a**holes. However some grow out of that stage and others do not.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryological_origins_of_the_mouth_and_anus


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> for marriage and mortgage and children.


I find it so funny (in a good, boy-do-I-get-it way) that you included the mortgage in your list. It takes a lot of trust to sign your name to a loan for a million dollars plus with someone. That’s commitment, I tell you what. 😉😂😂😂😂


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I find it so funny (in a good, boy-do-I-get-it way) that you included the mortgage in your list. It takes a lot of trust to sign your name to a loan for a million dollars plus with someone. That’s commitment, I tell you what. 😉😂😂😂😂


Yes. I've only done that with one person in my whole life and probably never will with anyone else again.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I find it so funny (in a good, boy-do-I-get-it way) that you included the mortgage in your list. It takes a lot of trust to sign your name to a loan for a million dollars plus with someone. That’s commitment, I tell you what. 😉😂😂😂😂


Big true right here.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Yes. I've only done that with one person in my whole life and probably never will with anyone else again.


I’ve done it once by myself and now four times with one person.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

I don't think men are the gate keepers in most modern countries. I think they were, based on social customs and gender discrimination... but I don't think they are anymore. Granted that statement is generalized and won't hold in places like Japan and the Middle East. But it certainly applies to America and most of Europe.

I think marriage is 50/50, each person has an equal voice.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

crashdawg said:


> I don't think men are the gate keepers in most modern countries. I think they were, based on social customs and gender discrimination... but I don't think they are anymore. Granted that statement is generalized and won't hold in places like Japan and the Middle East. But it certainly applies to America and most of Europe.
> 
> I think marriage is 50/50, each person has an equal voice.


Men may have been socially conditioned to be more accepting of terrible behaviour by females, but it still is the men who decide whether what the women did is beyond his ability to accept them as a mate.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

jonty30 said:


> Men may have been socially conditioned to be more accepting of terrible behaviour by females, but it still is the men who decide whether what the women did is beyond his ability to accept them as a mate.


Women are just as capable of deciding that a relationship isn't marriage material and moving on. Again my comm is very general and doesn't hold in all cultures...


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> If you are talking about cheating, then it's mostly just rugsweeping and gaslighting to get the BS of their back.
> 
> "It didn't mean anything" coming from a WH is the equivilent to a WW saying, "we only just kissed."
> 
> ...


Don't ever talk to a girl who says she has a friend.

-Biz Markie

Couldn't resist.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

crashdawg said:


> Women are just as capable of deciding that a relationship isn't marriage material and moving on. Again my comm is very general and doesn't hold in all cultures...


We have different priorities to what we consider to be marriage material.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

jonty30 said:


> We have different priorities to what we consider to be marriage material.


general comment.

In a traditional "man proposes" scenario, it's the man who has to win over the woman's family and it's the man awaiting a yes or no. Traditionally someone wouldn't ask without the family's blessing AND they'd be certain she would say yes. But there is also that chance. There are always butterflies before she answers. So what was once a formality (her acceptance) is now the deciding factor. By default she is the gate keeper to marriage.

Now you pile on the female empowerment movement that has fought for equality and you quickly realize she doesn't need a man to buy a house, buy a car, get a well paying job... She choses to form a relationship and may eventually choose to marry. Her freedom is now socially acceptable (again culture and country specific). This is reflected in countless studies.

Women in America for many generations were groomed to tolerate and accept wayward, alcoholic, and in some cases abusive husbands. That is thankfully no longer the case and platforms like this empower women in bad situations to seek divorce. It gives them the power to end it, to walk away.

Each individual has the potential to enter the relationship with the freedom to evaluate what they deem to be marriage material, and leave if it doesn't meet their standards.


----------



## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

crashdawg said:


> general comment.
> 
> In a traditional "man proposes" scenario, it's the man who has to win over the woman's family and it's the man awaiting a yes or no. Traditionally someone wouldn't ask without the family's blessing AND they'd be certain she would say yes. But there is also that chance. There are always butterflies before she answers. So what was once a formality (her acceptance) is now the deciding factor. By default she is the gate keeper to marriage.
> 
> ...


In all honesty, the empowerment movement is mostly just another term to describe how younger generation females go through the rebellious phase. My wife along with female coworkers over 32/33 roll their eyes at the female empowerment movement. 

I actually have one female friend who is 39 say what in the hell does shaving your head, coloring your hair, getting a nose ring, and rambling about men suck have anything to do with empowering females. And I would love for the feminist to please explain to me what it is that a man can do that I am not allowed to do?


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

crashdawg said:


> general comment.
> 
> In a traditional "man proposes" scenario, it's the man who has to win over the woman's family and it's the man awaiting a yes or no. Traditionally someone wouldn't ask without the family's blessing AND they'd be certain she would say yes. But there is also that chance. There are always butterflies before she answers. So what was once a formality (her acceptance) is now the deciding factor. By default she is the gate keeper to marriage.
> 
> ...


I agree with you that the intent was to make it less consequential for women, in whom they marry, by transferring the consequences to the men. The problem is that men are still acting as gatekeepers by opting out or choosing foreign women from more traditional societies to marry instead.

What seemed like a good idea has resulted in unavailable or forever uncommitted men.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> In all honesty, the empowerment movement is mostly just another term to describe how younger generation females go through the rebellious phase. My wife along with female coworkers over 32/33 roll their eyes at the female empowerment movement.
> 
> I actually have one female friend who is 39 say what in the hell does shaving your head, coloring your hair, getting a nose ring, and rambling about men suck have anything to do with empowering females. And I would love for the feminist to please explain to me what it is that a man can do that I am not allowed to do?


I was talking about the movement that gave women the right to vote, passed gender equality laws, tackled sexual harassment in the work place... the one stretching back well over 100 years...


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

jonty30 said:


> I agree with you that the intent was to make it less consequential for women, in whom they marry, by transferring the consequences to the men. The problem is that men are still acting as gatekeepers by opting out or choosing foreign women from more traditional societies to marry instead.
> 
> What seemed like a good idea has resulted in unavailable or forever uncommitted men.


Marriage was traditionally a transfer of power, property, and wealth. The concept of marrying for love is far more recent.

Mail order brides are not a new trend.That wasn't created by a transfer of power to equal roles of gate keepers. For that matter the concept of a trophy wife isn't new either.

And the unavailable or uncommitted men... there's just as many stories of suitors chasing a woman who doesn't want them. Not to mention that generational conditioning that forced women to stay in bad marriages... So again it's really not "men are gate keepers", at least not like it was 50-100 years ago.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

crashdawg said:


> Marriage was traditionally a transfer of power, property, and wealth. The concept of marrying for love is far more recent.
> 
> Mail order brides are not a new trend.That wasn't created by a transfer of power to equal roles of gate keepers. For that matter the concept of a trophy wife isn't new either.


It isn't new, but that's how men have adapted to the new realities. They simply didn't submit to the new order of things.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I'll admit it. My wife only orgasms from clit stimulation (i.e. fingers, using her toy) She has confirmed she has never in her life orgasmed from PIV...with me or her ex.


The First 25ish years of having sex with my with she had a PIV orgasm MAYBE 3 times. About a year and a half ago she started taking a THC edible prior to sex because of a back and shoulder issue and a friend made the recommendation. Around that time she started having them more often. Lately she can only have PIV for 10-15 minutes and gets orgasmed out and needs a break. Nothing to do with anything I do differently from what I can tell. Just a little nugget.


----------



## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

happyhusband0005 said:


> The First 25ish years of having sex with my with she had a PIV orgasm MAYBE 3 times. About a year and a half ago she started taking a THC edible prior to sex because of a back and shoulder issue and a friend made the recommendation. Around that time she started having them more often. Lately she can only have PIV for 10-15 minutes and gets orgasmed out and needs a break. Nothing to do with anything I do differently from what I can tell. Just a little nugget.


Oh lordy, another one of those who promotes thc and anything related to weed as a treatment for every condition known to exist. Everything from treating cancer to solving orgasm issues.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> Oh lordy, another one of those who promotes thc and anything related to weed as a treatment for every condition known to exist. Everything from treating cancer to solving orgasm issues.


Actually weed does cause some people to relax. It would stand to reason it would make it easier to orgasm. I’m not gonna recommend it, especially if it’s illegal where you live (like Texas) but it’s not impossible that in this case it could be true.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> In all honesty, the empowerment movement is mostly just another term to describe how younger generation females go through the rebellious phase. My wife along with female coworkers over 32/33 roll their eyes at the female empowerment movement.
> 
> I actually have one female friend who is 39 say what in the hell does shaving your head, coloring your hair, getting a nose ring, and rambling about men suck have anything to do with empowering females. And I would love for the feminist to please explain to me what it is that a man can do that I am not allowed to do?


Third wave “feminists” have nothing to do with empowering women. They promote the idea that women must have special treatment and be given “equity” because they either don’t believe women are capable or they’re too entitled and lazy. It’s a pathetic culture of victimhood and blaming men for everything they failed to do. 

The truth is, the ability to support ourselves has made it possible for women to choose husbands based on love and compatibility, and not to be forced to sell themselves to the first man who asked and then live lives of loneliness and abuse at the hands of men held unaccountable by society for their treatment of their wives. Real feminists just want equality under the law and the ability to escape abusive marriages. We can do the rest ourselves. We don’t hate men, and isn’t it better if women can choose if they want to marry instead of being forced? Don’t you want to be loved for the man you are instead of tolerated because the woman has no other choice?

I’m older than your wife and I’m on the same page with her. I just roll my eyes at those silly little girls and feel bad that they didn’t have better role models. The truth is that women can do just fine. Amy Coney Barrett comes to mind.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Third wave “feminists” have nothing to do with empowering women. They promote the idea that women must have special treatment and be given “equity” because they either don’t believe women are capable or they’re too entitled and lazy. It’s a pathetic culture of victimhood and blaming men for everything they failed to do.


I don't see anything about being given a "special treatment" in the third wave feminism...


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Third wave “feminists” have nothing to do with empowering women. They promote the idea that women must have special treatment and be given “equity” because they either don’t believe women are capable or they’re too entitled and lazy. It’s a pathetic culture of victimhood and blaming men for everything they failed to do.


My wife was a very active "third-wave" feminist activist and organiser when we started dating and still identifies as a feminist. I still remember her organising rallies and events, some of which I went to in support of her). Plus all the feminist books she had (still has), as well as all of the copies of Ms. Magazine, Refractory Girl and other periodicals that she bought.

Also at no point can I recall her ever demanding special treatment, blaming men or being into victimhood at all. Of which I don't think she is lazy or a failure either. I mean back in the day when she was straight out of school she was one of a handful of women trainee managers nationally. In the company she worked for and she wasn't shy about working hard. Then when she wanted to pursue other things, she first went to college and got a diploma, then went to university to get a STEM degree. Where she was one of only a small handful that earned it back then, since most of her fellow students (men and women) couldn't do it.

While she's managed to have a still ongoing successful full-time career in her chosen field, which has seen her become a leader in that field. She also managed to raise two kids along the way, with our son who she is so proud of, who has also earned (on his academic results) his way, into one of the worlds leading universities (which she also went to). All while for my wife, English is a second language. Yet all of her then and subsequent educational qualifications have been in the English language.

I've also seen her involved in community support and involved in crisis management work through some of her roles in government.

My wife also does plenty of housework (we don't pay for cleaners or maids), she cooks as well, and even washes the dishes by hand (as do I). While she's also active in the care of our youngest offspring who is ill. Plus when our kids were very young she often managed on her own without help, while I was away for weeks, and months at a time through my service commitments.

Oh and she thinks men are awesome and did back in the day as well including when she was organising feminist rallies.

While most importantly she cooks me breakfast on weekends and amongst many other things often makes me lunch as well, because she likes me.

Plus most topically my wife believes it's fine for men and women to enjoy pornography.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Predictably this thread has gone sideways but I presume Texas is talking about third wave feminism in the way that Christina Hoff Sommers would use the term where it’s a mish mash of intersectionality and authoritarian thinking (thought policing) rather than a basic equal rights for women.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> It could be a problem for your children.


All of my children are adults, one of them is 30 years old and married. Of which since all of them are adults they are welcome to look at pornography or not as they like.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> third wave feminism


Which my wife was an active part of.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Personal said:


> Which my wife was an active part of.


So which part of it? She was an advocate for shutting down gendered pronouns?


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> What about 5 times a week? Would that do it?
> 
> Asking for a friend.....


It would barely be enough to satiate my desire, so I would certainly masturbate (with or without pornography) at least once daily and probably twice daily given that frequency.

That said 5x a week of shared sex is a slow week (or an average weekend) for my wife and I. Since we're mostly sharing sex at 7-9x a week (and even 12-15x a week if we're on holiday).


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> So which part of it? She was an advocate for shutting down gendered pronouns?


The 1990s part, back when third-wave feminism was new.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Personal said:


> All of my children are adults, one of them is 30 years old and married. Of which since all of them are adults they are welcome to look at pornography or not as they like.


Which goes back to the wife always being someone else's daughter... Which causes this weird double standard of "I don't want my daughter on film doing..." followed by "it's ok if my wife and I film..."

Make sure you stretch before attempting the mental gymnastics. You'll have plenty of time I promise. The more you question things the more some members will ignore you! Or they'll cherry pick and scamper around it as quickly as possible.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

crashdawg said:


> Which goes back to the wife always being someone else's daughter... Which causes this weird double standard of "I don't want my daughter on film doing..." followed by "it's ok if my wife and I film..."
> 
> Make sure you stretch before attempting the mental gymnastics. You'll have plenty of time I promise. The more you question things the more some members will ignore you! Or they'll cherry pick and scamper around it as quickly as possible.


My adult offspring, are masters of their own choices.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Personal said:


> The 1990s part, back when third-wave feminism was new.


Ah so just intersectionality, vegetarian ecofeminism, transfeminism, and the beginning of postmodernism but before the authoritarian part, gotcha.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Usually we don't watch tv in the bedroom but last night we watched an old episode of Beat Bobby Flay. Awesome cooking show if you've never seen it.. Lots of good tips. Then I thought of a few posts on this thread.

I guess by watching it as a couple we accidentally invited Bobby Flay into our marriage and had a threesome. Really it'd be Bobby and the chef he was competing against so a foursome? Then again they showed the judges and host... omg was it a group thing? ewwww we only wanted to learn to cook we didn't want all these people in our marriage. And earlier that day I watched This old house and Bob Ross and... ewww... didn't want all these people in my marriage I just wanted new skill set.

If you're as confused as I am it's ok. I don't follow that logic either. But I do believe in expanding knowledge and skill sets.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Personal said:


> My adult offspring, are masters of their own choices.


Singing to the choir. I'm in full agreement. I'm just letting you know that you'll likely encounter headwinds in this thread.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> Ah so just intersectionality, vegetarian ecofeminism, transfeminism, and the beginning of postmodernism but before the authoritarian part, gotcha.


Actually abortion rights amongst several other things, and none of what you have written as quoted above.

Of which (where we live) finally, abortion is legal and woman no longer have to prove that their mental health is in danger to be allowed to abort an unwanted pregnancy.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Personal said:


> My wife was a very active "third-wave" feminist activist and organiser when we started dating and still identifies as a feminist. I still remember her organising rallies and events, some of which I went to in support of her). Plus all the feminist books she had (still has), as well as all of the copies of Ms. Magazine, Refractory Girl and other periodicals that she bought.
> 
> Also at no point can I recall her ever demanding special treatment, blaming men or being into victimhood at all. Of which I don't think she is lazy or a failure either. I mean back in the day when she was straight out of school she was one of a handful of women trainee managers nationally. In the company she worked for and she wasn't shy about working hard. Then when she wanted to pursue other things, she first went to college and got a diploma, then went to university to get a STEM degree. Where she was one of only a small handful that earned it back then, since most of her fellow students (men and women) couldn't do it.
> 
> ...


Sounds like your wife isn’t a 3rd wave feminist then.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Sounds like your wife isn’t a 3rd wave feminist then.


Fourth-wave feminism better fits what @ccpowerslave is claiming.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> Predictably this thread has gone sideways but I presume Texas is talking about third wave feminism in the way that Christina Hoff Sommers would use the term where it’s a mish mash of intersectionality and authoritarian thinking (thought policing) rather than a basic equal rights for women.


Thank you, yes, this is what I mean. The other two posters described women who work hard, take responsibility and don’t demand special treatment. The “third wave feminists” I’m describing are in fact lazy, entitled man-haters. The ones who want to teach little girls that men are out to get them and that we need quotas to place a certain number of women in positions of power whether they’re qualified or not. The one who specifically attack white, Christian men and insist that you use their preferred pronouns. They run around in pink hats and scream about “empowerment” and then attack conservative women as “not real women” or say they have “internalized misogyny.” They’re exhausting to all of us, including the two women the posters above described. I have never encountered one on this forum, TBH. They major in gender studies or underwater lesbian dance theory in Ivy League schools and then want taxpayers to pay their college debt. I could go on with their nonsense, but you guys get the point.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Personal said:


> Third-wave feminism has changed over the years, it didn't start out the way it is today.


Regardless, feminism is no longer needed. Things are now equal. Any move by feminism today is a power move. It is meant to degrade men to uplift women as opposed to uplifting women to…. Well, uplift women. It’s original intent.

any woman today that wants to be a feminist should move to the Middle East to help them out get everyone on equal footing - but they won’t. They’d rather hang out in the western countries and complain over nothing.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Personal said:


> The 1990s part, back when third-wave feminism was new.


It was still feminism then. This didn’t start until about 10-12 years ago. When it switched from “women should be allowed to pursue their dreams” to “we need to lower requirements for certain jobs so women can do them too.”


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It was still feminism then. This didn’t start until about 10-12 years ago. When it switched from “women should be allowed to pursue their dreams” to “we need to lower requirements for certain jobs so women can do them too.”


The third-wave started in the early through mid 1990s, the fourth-wave started around a decade ago. Of which you seem to be mistaking the fourth for the third.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Regardless, feminism is no longer needed. Things are now equal. Any move by feminism today is a power move. It is meant to degrade men to uplift women as opposed to uplifting women to…. Well, uplift women. It’s original intent.
> 
> any woman today that wants to be a feminist should move to the Middle East to help them out get everyone on equal footing - but they won’t. They’d rather hang out in the western countries and complain over nothing.


Truth. We had it. What I’m seeing today is authoritarian far left extremists pushing destroying the family and breaking down the culture. They’re not committed to women, they’re committed to leftism and calling it feminism. We’re actually equal now, if we can meet the requirements for a job, it’s very unusual for anyone to still believe that being a woman is a disqualifying factor.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

crashdawg said:


> Which goes back to the wife always being someone else's daughter... Which causes this weird double standard of "I don't want my daughter on film doing..." followed by "it's ok if my wife and I film..."
> 
> Make sure you stretch before attempting the mental gymnastics. You'll have plenty of time I promise. The more you question things the more some members will ignore you! Or they'll cherry pick and scamper around it as quickly as possible.


Its about women being ogled by countless men, against a faithful husband and wife agreeing to film for each other. 
Its completely different.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Regardless, feminism is no longer needed. Things are now equal. Any move by feminism today is a power move. It is meant to degrade men to uplift women as opposed to uplifting women to…. Well, uplift women. It’s original intent.
> 
> any woman today that wants to be a feminist should move to the Middle East to help them out get everyone on equal footing - but they won’t. They’d rather hang out in the western countries and complain over nothing.


Yes they are equal in the west. Sadly far from it in so many other places.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Truth. We had it. What I’m seeing today is authoritarian far left extremists pushing destroying the family and breaking down the culture. They’re not committed to women, they’re committed to leftism and calling it feminism. We’re actually equal now, if we can meet the requirements for a job, it’s very unusual for anyone to still believe that being a woman is a disqualifying factor.


To my knowledge the only sticking points left are abortion rights (which vary state to state) and equal pay. But I say that as a man who's never had to fight those challenges.

There actually seems to be more hurdles to racism/ civil rights then there is to sexism in America.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Diana7 said:


> Its about women being ogled by countless men, against a faithful husband and wife agreeing to film for each other.
> Its completely different.


Tell that to Tommy, Pamela, and countless others who have seen their private content leaked to the public, sometimes by the ex lover who filmed it. They had to create laws against revenge porn... It's sick and twisted.

Even on the boards here we read about husbands and wives having ex lovers in photos and videos. Personally I'd hope that content was discussed and destroyed.

For that matter tell that to the kids that find their parents stash or the in law or relative or friend who stumbles upon it.

A wife is STILL someone's daughter. One title doesn't replace the other.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Regardless, feminism is no longer needed. *Things are now equal*. e East to help them out get everyone on equal footing - but they won’t. They’d rather hang out in the western countries and complain over nothing.


Equal *in theory*.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Truth. We had it. What I’m seeing today is authoritarian far left extremists pushing destroying the family and breaking down the culture. They’re not committed to women, they’re committed to leftism and calling it feminism. We’re actually equal now, if we can meet the requirements for a job, it’s very unusual for anyone to still believe that being a woman is a disqualifying factor.


Do you really think that men and women are treated equally in society?


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> They major in gender studies or *underwater lesbian dance theory* in Ivy League schools


I had to google this...  it doesn't exist... it's just "lesbian dance theory", but you can join an underwater basket weaving group...


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

crashdawg said:


> To my knowledge the only sticking points left are abortion rights (which vary state to state) and equal pay. But I say that as a man who's never had to fight those challenges.
> 
> There actually seems to be more hurdles to racism/ civil rights then there is to sexism in America.


If a woman makes all the same career choices a man makes, she will make or exceed his compensation. The “wage gap” is a statistical trick. In most cases, when the decision for one parent to stay home with the children is made by a couple, it is the woman who stays home. That “77%” comes from averaging all women (including stay at home moms and housewives) with all men (including Bezos and Musk). It’s a deliberately misleading statistic. We have equal pay for equal work.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> I had to google this...  it doesn't exist... it's just "lesbian dance theory", but you can join an underwater basket weaving group...


It’s a joke. As is any of those degrees. I majored in English and only use it to correct grammar for my coworkers.😂


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Do you really think that men and women are treated equally in society?


Everywhere all the time? No of course, that will never happen. But there are no legal impediments preventing women from doing, really, anything. “Equity” and “equality of outcome” are myths. They’ll never happen. Someone will always be smarter, prettier and richer. Women aren’t forced to marry. Women are allowed to sue in court. It is illegal to kill us, rape us, imprison us or beat us, even if you’re our husband. Women in the west have it pretty good. We can prove ourselves. There’s always gonna be jerks. Can’t stop that, but we can avoid them.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Equal *in theory*.


That’s realistic. If you’re looking for “equity” then you need to discover a way for me to look like Kate Beckinsale. In theory, all men are equal, but unless you have Brad Pitt’s looks and Elon Musk’s money, it’s theoretical.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Holy moly! I'm loving me some Texas mom right now!

Not making a pass from the ethos. Just appreciating the posts!😉


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> Do you really think that men and women are treated equally in society?


What ways do you see women not being treated equally by society?


TexasMom1216 said:


> That’s realistic. If you’re looking for “equity” then you need to discover a way for me to look like Kate Beckinsale. In theory, all men are equal, but unless you have Brad Pitt’s looks and Elon Musk’s money, it’s theoretical.


I can say one way women get unequal treatment is the porn industry. Most porn produced is to appeal to men there is very little produced to appeal specifically to women. Just trying to tie this into the thread.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Personal said:


> The third-wave started in the early through mid 1990s, the fourth-wave started around a decade ago. Of which you seem to be mistaking the fourth for the third.


That’s fair. I will change the way I refer to it. I’m old and just behind the times I suppose.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I can say one way women get unequal treatment is the porn industry. Most porn produced is to appeal to men there is very little produced to appeal specifically to women. Just trying to tie this into the thread.


I’m about to make a VERY general statement that certainly doesn’t apply to everyone. It’s a wild generalization. I would say that is because the market for porn for women is much smaller than the market for porn for men. We’re just different. And there’s also the fact that, truth be told, if a woman wants no strings attached sex, it’s generally a lot easier for her to find a willing male than the other way around. (Runs and hides from the flaming ban hammer)


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

happyhusband0005 said:


> What ways do you see women not being treated equally by society?


Society is ruled by men. That's your answer and for @TexasMom1216 too. Until this changes, there will never be equality between men and women in society.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

happyhusband0005 said:


> What ways do you see women not being treated equally by society?
> 
> I can say one way women get unequal treatment is the porn industry. Most porn produced is to appeal to men there is very little produced to appeal specifically to women. Just trying to tie this into the thread.


Oddly, even on the porn front, there's laws, regulations, fair contracts, there's some women owned studios. It's still 100% market driven (not a lot of male romance novels if you really want to pick that fight).

One thing that became crystal clear in this thread is a lot of people heard the horror stories from the 60's to the 90's and that's it. They never had a reason to update their notes. Even on here, when it's relevant, they never bothered to double check to see if things changed from 30 years ago to now.

But if you point it out, even pointing out certified marriage counselors and certified sex therapists are recommending specific how to tutorials found via search on Pornhub, you're met with stigmas, labeling, uncomfortable generalizations and ultimately being ignored... You're told you're damaging your marriage BUT the marriage counselor is the one who recommended it!

1990 was over 30 years ago. I can't speak for a global industry but in the US it's not the same industry it was. And that's just professional porn. Now with things like Onlyfans that "star" could be the person you pass in the grocery store.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

crashdawg said:


> Tell that to Tommy, Pamela, and countless others who have seen their private content leaked to the public, sometimes by the ex lover who filmed it. They had to create laws against revenge porn... It's sick and twisted.
> 
> Even on the boards here we read about husbands and wives having ex lovers in photos and videos. Personally I'd hope that content was discussed and destroyed.
> 
> ...


The fact that it may be leaked can be an issue, that's the risk you take. It's still nothing like porn itself. Completey different senario.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

crashdawg said:


> Oddly, even on the porn front, there's laws, regulations, fair contracts, there's some women owned studios. It's still 100% market driven (not a lot of male romance novels if you really want to pick that fight).
> 
> One thing that became crystal clear in this thread is a lot of people heard the horror stories from the 60's to the 90's and that's it. They never had a reason to update their notes. Even on here, when it's relevant, they never bothered to double check to see if things changed from 30 years ago to now.
> 
> ...


Do you honestly believe everything a therapist says is gospel truth? 
As for how things have changed, yes of course they have, sadly for the worse.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Well I followed the advice here and cranked one out in bed at 5am today next to my sleeping wife using just mental imagery of her with zero porn. I don’t feel any different. I thought perhaps I would feel more virtuous but nope.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> T/J, I’m trying to be careful how I word things. I’m sure the bans are forthcoming regardless but I really am trying to proofread and really think about how things will be perceived. I’m also actively avoiding religious discussions.


You do right avoiding religious discussion. Some hate it if God is mentioned 😲


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ccpowerslave said:


> Well I followed the advice here and cranked one out in bed at 5am today next to my sleeping wife using just mental imagery of her with zero porn. I don’t feel any different. I thought perhaps I would feel more virtuous but nope.
> 
> View attachment 83575


Try it for a month.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> What ways do you see women not being treated equally by society?
> 
> I can say one way women get unequal treatment is the porn industry. Most porn produced is to appeal to men there is very little produced to appeal specifically to women. Just trying to tie this into the thread.


Supply and demand. That’s actually an easy one.

capitalism rules in the west. If there was serious money to be made by catering porn to women, let’s be honest, it would be made.

as for unequal treatment, it is also well known that the women in the industry are paid more than the men. Again, supply and demand. Demand is very high for the women - so they have negotiation power in this business transaction


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> The fact that it may be leaked can be an issue, that's the risk you take. It's still nothing like porn itself. Completey different senario.


When I was younger I would have looked ok in videos and pictures. But the internet is written in pen. If couples want to do that, bless their hearts and I wish them the best, but I’m so terrified it would end up online, even if I were attractive enough to pull it off I still wouldn’t.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> When I was younger I would have looked ok in videos and pictures. But the internet is written in pen. If couples want to do that, bless their hearts and I wish them the best, but I’m so terrified it would end up online, even if I were attractive enough to pull it off I still wouldn’t.


I wouldn't do it either. Too risky.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Diana7 said:


> Do you honestly believe everything a therapist says is gospel truth?
> As for how things have changed, yes of course they have, sadly for the worse.


For someone who claims they're anti porn you sure seem to know a lot about the industry.

Also if a loving husband and wife film their encounter and then put it on Only fans and the parents happen to find it... wife or daughter? Which title wins? For that matter and based on your own definition is it porn?

It's ok I spaced them apart so it'll be easier to cherry pick and dodge!


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> but I’m so terrified it would end up online





Diana7 said:


> I wouldn't do it either. Too risky.


Meanwhile my wife and I quite happily, post some of our own homemade pornography online.

To the point that we have made some of it from the get go, with the intention of posting it online. While we have also gone to the effort of establishing a “verified”member profile, specifically for that end as well.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Personal said:


> Meanwhile my wife and I quite happily, post some of our own homemade pornography online.
> 
> To the point that we have made some of it from the get go, with the intention of posting it online. While we have also gone to the effort of establishing a “verified”member profile, specifically for that end as well.


And that is your choice and your right, and if that makes you happy and makes your marriage stronger that is wonderful and keep doing it. We all make our own choices. Marriage is between two people, do what makes you happy.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

crashdawg said:


> For someone who claims they're anti porn you sure seem to know a lot about the industry.
> 
> Also if a loving husband and wife film their encounter and then put it on Only fans and the parents happen to find it... wife or daughter? Which title wins? For that matter and based on your own definition is it porn?
> 
> It's ok I spaced them apart so it'll be easier to cherry pick and dodge!


If they put something on only fans then that's no longer between just the two of them. 
It's then including other people. So yes it has become porn for others to watch.

I would rather not be ignorant about stuff. It's good to understand fully the dangers and damage that porn does. I have also learnt a lot from those whose lives have been damaged by it.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Personal said:


> Meanwhile my wife and I quite happily, post some of our own homemade pornography online.
> 
> To the point that we have made some of it from the get go, with the intention of posting it online. While we have also gone to the effort of establishing a “verified”member profile, specifically for that end as well.


And now suddenly we'll watch splitting of hairs as some say it's porn and others try to say it's not because it's husband and wife. The "someone's daughter" argument fails again...

Or they'll ignore it.

I've seen both in this thread!


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Diana7 said:


> If they put something on only fans then that's no longer between just the two of them.
> It's then including other people. So yes it has become porn for others to watch.
> 
> I would rather not be ignorant about stuff. It's good to understand fully the dangers and damage that porn does. I have also learnt a lot from those whose lives have been damaged by it.


Thank you for your honesty but it's still wife, and still daughter, and really presents itself as Schrödinger's cat.

I've also seen marriages fall apart by alcoholism. I've supported friends in AA. Yet I know others that can drink responsibly without issue. I see porn in a similar light.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

crashdawg said:


> Thank you for your honesty but it's still wife, and still daughter, and really presents itself as Schrödinger's cat.
> 
> *I've also seen marriages fall apart by alcoholism. I've supported friends in AA. Yet I know others that can drink responsibly without issue. I see porn in a similar light.*


This is my stance on porn as well. For other people, I mean. My own marriage is private, and my stance is slightly different, but in general, with everything, moderation is key.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> I would rather not be ignorant about stuff. It's good to understand fully the dangers and damage that porn does. *I have also learnt a lot from those whose lives have been damaged by it.*


But have you learned anything from those whose lives were undamaged or even helped by it?


----------



## BURNT KEP (Oct 3, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Masturbation without porn? Divorce?


Unfortunately both of those suck


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Livvie said:


> You were.


😵‍💫


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Livvie said:


> I agree.
> 
> Maybe when all of the good old boys kick it and aren't around anymore?
> 
> ...


Yep, I've had stuff like this happen all the time.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Agreed. I personally like your approach. I think the other dangers that you’ve told them is being a responsible parent even if they are technically adults. Even still, you are doing a “don’t ask, don’t tell”.
> 
> one of my main talking points with my kids will be the same. I will be heavily involved while they are children in my house. I can handle porn. I can dissociate it from real life. I prefer my wife every time to porn. It is a tool for me, nothing more. When my wife has sex with me every day, I don’t use it.
> 
> ...


I don't see why not, although girls are different than boys in how they process things and what they face.

One of the biggest dangers of porn as I see it for young people today is that they're being exposed to a lot of things beg they have any relationship experience. So they don't have the same ability to separate it from how things really work.

Those of us who came up before the proliferation of the internet have a little easier time keeping it separate from our dealings with our spouse.

In the case of girls I'd address what porn may convey vs what they should tolerate as part of a healthy relationship and how things that they don't enjoy are not required simply because their guy watches porn.

That is something I still plan to address further with my boys....just because it's in porn doesn't mean it's reasonable or healthy to push for.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> You gave an example of an individual who behaved a certain way but I can site just as many instances of being treated differently by both individual men and women as you and with just as much or more dipstick discrimination.
> 
> Man here and I don't interact with people the way that man acted with you.
> 
> ...


I still remember car shopping with my kids dad and the salesman, who was from Iraq and made a point to share that, kept addressing him and barely acknowledged me at all. Except that I was the one who made the financial decisions.....I was good at it and ex was happy to have me do it.

Despite me asking questions and trying to be part of things he continued to ignore me.

I got up and left and ex followed.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I still remember car shopping with my kids dad and the salesman, who was from Iraq and made a point to share that, kept addressing him and barely acknowledged me at all. Except that I was the one who made the financial decisions.....I was good at it and ex was happy to have me do it.
> 
> Despite me asking questions and trying to be part of things he continued to ignore me.
> 
> I got up and left and ex followed.


Ahh. The middle eastern men.

Mrs. C has had a run in or two with them and they ended just as abruptly. We might have laws in place that aren't discriminatory for the most part but individuals.....

Her own brother tried to "correct" us when he found out she had the checkbook and took care of paying the bills.

I actually took care of the budget while she took care of the rest.

We went out with him and his wife a little over a week ago for my birthday and he was a jackass the whole day and about as misogynistic a man as you would want to find.

I told Mrs. C afterward that I wasn't going to put up with him anymore even for her and she agreed.

She got a text from him a couple of days later that he lost a second job due to sexual harassment of a coworker. Go figure...😵‍💫


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

50/50 is an idealized goal that interactions of a male/ female society is measured against. It doesn't mean half of all positions are filled by women. It means women have an equal chance of filling that position if they meet the requirements for it. My above comment isn't referring to lowered standards.

If women are ignored in preference of men then it stands to reason they would also be offered less in comparison to men. There is litigation pending now at major companies because of this specific problem. It wasn't 1 instance, or 1 manager or 1 company or even an average. It was "head to head" pre interview where the only metric was qualifications and gender and men were offered more. This is also an industry specific issue. Without setting a goal, there would be nothing to measure against an no way to track the real progress that has been made. Again please don't use your own personal success, or success within a specific field, to mask a much broader issue. A lot of progress has been made and continues to be made but we must have a goal to measure that against.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

crashdawg said:


> It means women have an equal chance of filling that position if they meet the requirements for it.


We may not completely be there, but we are pretty darn close. And it is VERY true that as soon as all the boomers age out, we will have finally gotten rid of the clingers to the mythology that "The 1950s were the best time in history for women" and "women can only be nurses and secretaries." Will there still be misogynists? Sure. There will always be jerks. But it is becoming less and less socially acceptable to express those views, because fewer and fewer are buying into that nonsense.

You say major companies are dealing with lawsuits over sexism in hiring decisions. You don't see that as progress? I can remember in my own life when it was acceptable to chose a man over a woman because "she'll just quit and have babies." Now people are losing their jobs and companies are paying millions in legal fees for doing that kind of thing. You don't see that as an overall good? It may still be happening but it's neither acceptable nor it is allowed. People, including men, are fighting back against it. That's not a good thing?

I love how my life experience in this doesn't matter. 25 years of watching the change in technology, a male dominated industry, for oil and gas, a male dominated industry, and I'm an anomaly despite all the woman in leadership positions around me as well? That's very interesting to me, and I have to wonder if my experience doesn't count because it disagrees with the point you're trying to make.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

crashdawg said:


> 50/50 is an idealized goal that interactions of a male/ female society is measured against. It doesn't mean half of all positions are filled by women. It means women have an equal chance of filling that position if they meet the requirements for it. My above comment isn't referring to lowered standards.
> 
> If women are ignored in preference of men then it stands to reason they would also be offered less in comparison to men. There is litigation pending now at major companies because of this specific problem. It wasn't 1 instance, or 1 manager or 1 company or even an average. It was "head to head" pre interview where the only metric was qualifications and gender and men were offered more. This is also an industry specific issue. Without setting a goal, there would be nothing to measure against an no way to track the real progress that has been made. Again please don't use your own personal success, or success within a specific field, to mask a much broader issue. A lot of progress has been made and continues to be made but we must have a goal to measure that against.


I'm apparently clueless about this happening on a large scale.

Would you point me in the right direction about the head to head cases you know about?

I'm going to do my own research of course but you might be able to hasten it.

Edit:. Found lawsuits a plenty on my own. Now I have to research their verity.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

crashdawg said:


> Thank you for your honesty but it's still wife, and still daughter, and really presents itself as Schrödinger's cat.
> 
> I've also seen marriages fall apart by alcoholism. I've supported friends in AA. Yet I know others that can drink responsibly without issue. I see porn in a similar light.


I don't see using porn as responsible in any way. Having the occasional drink doesn't usually hurt people and wreck marriages. 
In porn it's for any old guy to leer over. In a marriage it's purely for each other.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

crashdawg said:


> Thank you for your honesty but it's still wife, and still daughter, and really presents itself as Schrödinger's cat.
> 
> I've also seen marriages fall apart by alcoholism. I've supported friends in AA. Yet I know others that can drink responsibly without issue. I see porn in a similar light.


I don't see using porn as responsible in any way. Having the occasional drink doesn't usually hurt people and wreck marriages. 
In porn it's for any old guy to leer over. In a marriage it's purely for each other.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I think there are a few examples where gender bias does show up. One I can think of off the top of my head is this study:









Study Suggests GitHub Pull Requests Affected By Gender Biases | Digital Trends


As per a new study, women's contributions to open-source programs are rejected more often, but only if their gender is identifiable




www.digitaltrends.com





This case is interesting and the authors do account for some questions I would have had about it. Are the women who end up submitting pull requests on git better overall programmers in the first place as an example. 

They also make a distinction between insiders versus passers by which is important because working directly with someone it’s much easier to avoid bias (in my opinion).


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> I still remember car shopping with my kids dad and the salesman, who was from Iraq and made a point to share that, kept addressing him and barely acknowledged me at all. Except that I was the one who made the financial decisions.....I was good at it and ex was happy to have me do it.
> 
> Despite me asking questions and trying to be part of things he continued to ignore me.
> 
> I got up and left and ex followed.


I remember we went to look at a car several years ago. The young sales lady completely ignored me and focused on Mr D. We both asked questions, in fact me more than him, but she still addressed him. Couldn't believe how rude she was.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> Well I followed the advice here and cranked one out in bed at 5am today next to my sleeping wife using just mental imagery of her with zero porn. I don’t feel any different. I thought perhaps I would feel more virtuous but nope.


I think the analogy could be masturbation to mental imagery is like using a tool, whereas masturbating to porn is like using a power tool. The latter may be faster and more effective, but is offensive to "purist _wood_workers."


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I remember we went to look at a car several years ago. The young sales lady completely ignored me and focused on Mr D. We both asked questions, in fact me more than him, but she still addressed him. Couldn't believe how rude she was.


I would have walked out (and taken husband with me).


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Personal said:


> All of my children are adults, one of them is 30 years old and married. Of which since all of them are adults they are welcome to look at pornography or not as they like.





Personal said:


> All of my children are adults, one of them is 30 years old and married. Of which since all of them are adults they are welcome to look at pornography or not as they like.


Then the question is how did you protect them from the porn/erotica throughout your home when they were young- or did you?


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I worked a year at a dealership. Some guys wouldn't have a female salesperson. What I saw a lot of that wasn't about the employees was guys who were trying to buy a vehicle their wife clearly didn't want. No consideration would be given to her opinion by either husband or employee, and she would end up walking out and standing in the parking lot or going to their car. It was sad. Sad when you're supposed to be part of a team, one is given no consideration. It very often did mean the deal was off, but not always. 

Then one of the dumbest things I'd see in the way of disagreements between spouses is the wheels would be more important to him than the vehicle. One couple didn't qualify (not even tentatively) for anything but a lower-priced car, but the guy was deadset on having $2000 wheels. They could have bought the next model up, which was still not fancy enough to look anything but laughable with fancy wheels, but instead he was for buying the cheapest new car on the lot and spending $2000 on wheels -- and she was getting no say about it. That time I did piss him off and point out to him that if he maybe got wheels at a later time, they could afford the better car, and all that did was really make him mad. I didn't care. I didn't want her to be stuck with that POS with fancy wheels he had in mind.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> We may not completely be there, but we are pretty darn close. And it is VERY true that as soon as all the boomers age out, we will have finally gotten rid of the clingers to the mythology that "The 1950s were the best time in history for women" and "women can only be nurses and secretaries." Will there still be misogynists? Sure. There will always be jerks. But it is becoming less and less socially acceptable to express those views, because fewer and fewer are buying into that nonsense.
> 
> You say major companies are dealing with lawsuits over sexism in hiring decisions. You don't see that as progress? I can remember in my own life when it was acceptable to chose a man over a woman because "she'll just quit and have babies." Now people are losing their jobs and companies are paying millions in legal fees for doing that kind of thing. You don't see that as an overall good? It may still be happening but it's neither acceptable nor it is allowed. People, including men, are fighting back against it. That's not a good thing?
> 
> I love how my life experience in this doesn't matter. 25 years of watching the change in technology, a male dominated industry, for oil and gas, a male dominated industry, and I'm an anomaly despite all the woman in leadership positions around me as well? That's very interesting to me, and I have to wonder if my experience doesn't count because it disagrees with the point you're trying to make.


At no point did I say life experience itself didn't matter. But I'd argue your experience is limited based on the regions and fields you've traveled. Same can be said of me or anyone else. As a society we have to account for those differences. To put a fine point on it... segregation happened everywhere but was extreme in the South... That doesn't mean someone in Chicago didn't experience racism but even if racism was eased in Chicago, it took the National Guard for a little girl to go to school in South Carolina! The same can be said of sexism. More conservative states typically had stricter gender roles, some of them are actually reverting back to those old ways these past few years...

Tech is one field that's certainly male dominated but so is Science, so are many trades, so is Engineering... list goes on. STEM was put in place in part to increase diversity in science fields! Again I'm not discounting your personal journey and the experiences you've earned... I'm saying it's part of a much larger tapestry.

For the most part we will see significant progress in the coming decades as the old guard ages out. But as others pointed out we'll experience new adversity from immigrants bringing their own sexist and racist customs over. This is why it's critical to always have a goal, even if idealized, to measure against.

I remember my mom not being able to buy a car. I remember the "novelty" of a female doctor. One of many reasons I fight so has is so my own daughters don have to encounter that adversity on a daily basis.

For the user asking about lawsuits I believe the latest scandal is the Merchant Marine Academy (truly horrific stories). Prior to that you should be able to pull up data on all 5 US Armed Forces branches and the severe sexual harassment in each. There's also multiple software companies recently that had issues. And who can forget the jaw dropping internal Google email. All there and count more to show how far we've come. It's great that it's not swept under the rug... but as a society we MUST admit it happened now, and it's still a problem.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Diana7 said:


> I don't see using porn as responsible in any way. Having the occasional drink doesn't usually hurt people and wreck marriages.
> In porn it's for any old guy to leer over. In a marriage it's purely for each other.


There are members of AA who would chastise you and argue that the occasional drink is a myth. That any alcohol consumption is bad, that it is an addiction one cannot control. That one cannot drink responsibly. There are also members who would argue that anything but a dry house leads to underage drinking and future alcoholism. The mere press of alcohl, even if under lock and key, is an opportunity for children to get to it.

There are priests and nuns who would argue that impure thoughts are precisely that and that even having those thoughts, even if it's of your spouse, is a sin if you're not actively trying to have a family. They equate any masturbation, even if there's no media and it's only impure thoughts, as pornography.

The defense that it's not porn if both consent, and it's within a marriage, and it's only for them negates the potential that it may someday leak. I believe you yourself even made a comment to that effect on a thread. That there's no way to ensure it won't leak.

So I am honestly struggling with the logical double standard. I'm also confused as to why someone would engage the professional services of a marriage counselor and subsequently ignore their advice if tutorial videos are suggested. The entire reason those services were requested was to try and save a relationship and ensure the needs of both parties are met. I again cite the sports analogy. If you're awesome on the driving range but your short game needs attention you hire a golf coach to advise you. Some of that advice is likely self help videos discussing strategies and methods to improve your game.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

crashdawg said:


> There are members of AA who would chastise you and argue that the occasional drink is a myth. That any alcohol consumption is bad, that it is an addiction one cannot control. That one cannot drink responsibly. There are also members who would argue that anything but a dry house leads to underage drinking and future alcoholism. The mere press of alcohl, even if under lock and key, is an opportunity for children to get to it.
> 
> There are priests and nuns who would argue that impure thoughts are precisely that and that even having those thoughts, even if it's of your spouse, is a sin if you're not actively trying to have a family. They equate any masturbation, even if there's no media and it's only impure thoughts, as pornography.
> 
> ...


Its not a double standard. Its a married couple filming themselves for themselves. If it leaks thats accidental and if they are careful that wont happen. Porn is specifically for countless people to ogle and leer and masturbate to these people. Plus to make loads of money. 

I think that the vast majority of people can and do have an occasional drink without causing any harm. Porn use is an entirely different thing.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Conflating tutorial videos with hardcore porn is a straw man. There’s no logical fallacy if you present an honest argument.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

crashdawg said:


> At no point did I say life experience itself didn't matter. But I'd argue your experience is limited based on the regions and fields you've traveled. Same can be said of me or anyone else. As a society we have to account for those differences. To put a fine point on it... segregation happened everywhere but was extreme in the South... That doesn't mean someone in Chicago didn't experience racism but even if racism was eased in Chicago, it took the National Guard for a little girl to go to school in South Carolina! The same can be said of sexism. More conservative states typically had stricter gender roles, some of them are actually reverting back to those old ways these past few years...
> 
> Tech is one field that's certainly male dominated but so is Science, so are many trades, so is Engineering... list goes on. STEM was put in place in part to increase diversity in science fields! Again I'm not discounting your personal journey and the experiences you've earned... I'm saying it's part of a much larger tapestry.
> 
> ...


You lost me with “racism is worse in the South.” You obviously have no experience with the South if you’re still saying we’re all racist hicks. If that’s your tiny worldview, there’s no reason to continue.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

crashdawg said:


> There are members of AA who would chastise you and argue that the occasional drink is a myth. That any alcohol consumption is bad, that it is an addiction one cannot control. That one cannot drink responsibly. There are also members who would argue that anything but a dry house leads to underage drinking and future alcoholism. The mere press of alcohl, even if under lock and key, is an opportunity for children to get to it.
> 
> There are priests and nuns who would argue that impure thoughts are precisely that and that even having those thoughts, even if it's of your spouse, is a sin if you're not actively trying to have a family. They equate any masturbation, even if there's no media and it's only impure thoughts, as pornography.
> 
> ...


To somebody with the potential to be an alcoholic, having one drink is literally like drinking water. It does nothing for them. 
Sure, a potential alcoholic could have a single drink but it does nothing for them. For many of them, drinking to the point of relaxing is going to constitute getting drunk for other people. 
That's why AA chastises alcoholics for having one drink, because they can't have one drink and have it do anything for them. 
A person who does use porn can use it without progression or using it too much. 
However, there are a couple of unavoidable issues when it does come to using porn. 

1. There is no assurance that you aren't watching somebody in bondage, who has been sold into sexual slavery. Whether that person is a slave or working for her hit dosage of heroin or crack, you cannot know the back story of the person you are viewing. Every time you view that person, you are victimizing her again.
It is one thing to view somebody who performed voluntarily for a paycheque and somebody who is working at gun point. However, you have no way of knowing which person you are looking at. 
2. It does hurt your ability to navigate sexual relationships because you condition yourself to get off a a woman who will never say no to your desires. However, in real life, you have to seduce your woman and you have to create the conditions that makes her want you and she still might say no.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

crashdawg said:


> At no point did I say life experience itself didn't matter. But I'd argue your experience is limited based on the regions and fields you've traveled. Same can be said of me or anyone else. As a society we have to account for those differences. To put a fine point on it... segregation happened everywhere but was extreme in the South... That doesn't mean someone in Chicago didn't experience racism but even if racism was eased in Chicago, it took the National Guard for a little girl to go to school in South Carolina! The same can be said of sexism. More conservative states typically had stricter gender roles, some of them are actually reverting back to those old ways these past few years...
> 
> Tech is one field that's certainly male dominated but so is Science, so are many trades, so is Engineering... list goes on. STEM was put in place in part to increase diversity in science fields! Again I'm not discounting your personal journey and the experiences you've earned... I'm saying it's part of a much larger tapestry.
> 
> ...


In the South, they've integrated. They only thing that separates people is their level of income. However, people of like income, regardless of their skin colour, attend the same schools and same social events. 

It is in Democrat states where people are segregated. You have black neighbourhoods, with black kids attending underfunded black schools. This is the deliberate policy of Democrat cities and states, but liberals say nice things. They say nice things, but maintain separate living. People in the South will be more honest with each other, but they all attend the same stuff with no separation.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> In the South, they've integrated. They only thing that separates people is their level of income. However, people of like income, regardless of their skin colour, attend the same schools and same social events.
> 
> It is in Democrat states where people are segregated. You have black neighbourhoods, with black kids attending underfunded black schools. This is the deliberate policy of Democrat cities and states, but liberals say nice things. They say nice things, but maintain separate living. People in the South will be more honest with each other, but they all attend the same stuff with no separation.


It is also Democrats who stand firmly against school choice and vouchers that would allow lower income children of all races access to better, safer schools.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It is also Democrats who stand firmly against school choice and vouchers that would allow lower income children of all races access to better, safer schools.


School choice, with the only limitation being the ability to perform at a necessary competency, would do a lot to help disadvantaged people get ahead.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

It just makes me so angry. People on the coasts keep insisting it’s Jim Crow down here. They are the ones who are racist, we are completely integrated here. They insist that women are oppressed. Yet women are running energy companies more often than anything in entertainment. It’s just untrue and a way for people to feel better about their own failings by smearing the South.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> I don't see using porn as responsible in any way. Having the occasional drink doesn't usually hurt people and wreck marriages.
> In porn it's for any old guy to leer over. In a marriage it's purely for each other.


In my experience, porn causes FAR LESS damage than alcohol.

And I bet plenty of women leer over porn as well.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It just makes me so angry. People on the coasts keep insisting it’s Jim Crow down here. They are the ones who are racist, we are completely integrated here. They insist that women are oppressed. Yet women are running energy companies more often than anything in entertainment. It’s just untrue and a way for people to feel better about their own failings by smearing the South.


Let me teach you the mindset of the hard liberal. Pretension is more important than actual events or consequences to the hard liberal. 
Liberals in my country took a trillion dollars from my province for themselves. However, Albertans are mean and selfish when they complain about the policies that are impoverishing them.
Hard Liberals will get pissed off when a Southerner says uncomplimentary things about the criminal element of a particular skin colour, but that same hard liberal in his city and state will support policies that ensure that the criminal stays in his ghetto and his community never can build anything, and the hard liberal doesn't have to worry about seeing him. Even though it means that good people of that skin colour are unduly victimized by those same policies.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Conflating tutorial videos with hardcore porn is a straw man. There’s no logical fallacy if you present an honest argument.


That's a difficult hair to split when said tutorials were found on Pornhub. I can't be faulted for knowing how to use a search feature. All the videos were there as was plenty of softcore and hardcore materials... I just went for specific things not general gratification.


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> In my experience, porn causes FAR LESS damage than alcohol.
> 
> And I bet plenty of women leer over porn as well.


Agreed. I doubt if anyone has ever killed someone behind the wheel from having an erection but they certain have from driving drunk.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Diana7 said:


> Its not a double standard. Its a married couple filming themselves for themselves. If it leaks thats accidental and if they are careful that wont happen. Porn is specifically for countless people to ogle and leer and masturbate to these people. Plus to make loads of money.
> 
> I think that the vast majority of people can and do have an occasional drink without causing any harm. Porn use is an entirely different thing.


The actual existence of AA is because many couldn't contain themselves to the occasional drink.

But it's interesting that porn by your definition is narrowly limited to erotic media produced for mass consumption.


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> In my experience, porn causes FAR LESS damage than alcohol.
> 
> And I bet plenty of women leer over porn as well.


And yes, a woman I dated while single was really into watching it. She used to like lesbian porn even though she was not a lesbian or bi. But hey, if she wanted to watch it, who was I to say No? 

Mmmm, that was a long time ago but still some great memories.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Agreed. I doubt if anyone has ever killed someone behind the wheel from having an erection but they certain have from driving drunk.


One ambulance told me about an accident he had to attend to. 
When he got there, the male driver and female passanger were killed. 
As he was searching the man's body, he realized that the man was missing a penis. 
You'll never guess where he found that penis?
*snikt.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> And yes, a woman I dated while single was really into watching it. She used to like lesbian porn even though she was not a lesbian or bi. But hey, if she wanted to watch it, who was I to say No?
> 
> Mmmm, that was a long time ago but still some great memories.


I wonder if she has given up on sex now...??


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

crashdawg said:


> That's a difficult hair to split when said tutorials were found on Pornhub. I can't be faulted for knowing how to use a search feature. All the videos were there as was plenty of softcore and hardcore materials... I just went for specific things not general gratification.


That’s an honest distinction. I was focusing on content, not platform. I would imagine @Diana7 is too, she can clarify.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You lost me with “racism is worse in the South.” You obviously have no experience with the South if you’re still saying we’re all racist hicks. If that’s your tiny worldview, there’s no reason to continue.


I didn't say racism IS worse in the South I said racism WAS worse in the South. More importantly laws were put in place on a National level to create a standard to be measured against. I have a lineage dating back centuries in the South so please stop making assumptions about an industry you've never met. I did not assume you or anyone else is racist or a hick or anything of the sort.

MY POINT is that an individual in 1950's America had a VERY different racial experience in Chicago then they did in Louisiana. Those two places seem very specific and I'll let your fingers type keys to find the link but I assure you there is one... Sexism, like Racism, follows local customs. More Liberal areas were the first to openly adopt women in the workforce outside of war time periods. That FYI is not opinion it is fact backed by decades of data... 

So basing an entire argument on personal life experience negates the life experiences of others who may have lived in different regions at different times and have equally compelling narratives to add. My point was that it is a bigger picture. Not you, not your field, not your state. It's everyone's responsibility to hold society to much higher standards.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

crashdawg said:


> I didn't say racism IS worse in the South I said racism WAS worse in the South. More importantly laws were put in place on a National level to create a standard to be measured against. I have a lineage dating back centuries in the South so please stop making assumptions about an industry you've never met. I did not assume you or anyone else is racist or a hick or anything of the sort.
> 
> MY POINT is that an individual in 1950's America had a VERY different racial experience in Chicago then they did in Louisiana. Those two places seem very specific and I'll let your fingers type keys to find the link but I assure you there is one... Sexism, like Racism, follows local customs. More Liberal areas were the first to openly adopt women in the workforce outside of war time periods. That FYI is not opinion it is fact backed by decades of data...
> 
> So basing an entire argument on personal life experience negates the life experiences of others who may have lived in different regions at different times and have equally compelling narratives to add. My point was that it is a bigger picture. Not you, not your field, not your state. It's everyone's responsibility to hold society to much higher standards.


I would say that perhaps racism was more open in the South, not worse. The ghettoization of blacks in the North started right after the Civil War and lives to this day and no hard liberal that I'm aware of wants to change those social conditions to allow complete free movement, based on income, of people across the cities or state. I've yet to hear a hard liberal who advocates for ending the ghettoization of blacks.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> That’s an honest distinction. I was focusing on content, not platform. I would imagine @Diana7 is too, she can clarify.


BUT it was found on a porn site... so as badly as one wishes to split education from softcore from hardcore it STILL isn't an easy out. Educational pornographic content produced as a how to tutorial to be viewed by the masses was used from a porn website to further my education in an area of sex I was unfamiliar with in hopes of providing a better experience for my loving wife... I believe the individuals in it were even husband and wife so... ummm... awkward!!!

What's more I've been clear about this from the beginning.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> In my experience, porn causes FAR LESS damage than alcohol.
> 
> And I bet plenty of women leer over porn as well.


I am talking about an individual having an extra occasional drink as opposed to watching porn.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

crashdawg said:


> BUT it was found on a porn site... so as badly as one wishes to split education from softcore from hardcore it STILL isn't an easy out. Educational pornographic content produced as a how to tutorial to be viewed by the masses was used from a porn website to further my education in an area of sex I was unfamiliar with in hopes of providing a better experience for my loving wife... I believe the individuals in it were even husband and wife so... ummm... awkward!!!
> 
> What's more I've been clear about this from the beginning.


You can be educated without explicit films surely? 
I mean we can teach kids how babies are made, they don't need to actually see it happen.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> You can be educated without explicit films surely?
> I mean we can teach kids how babies are made, they don't need to actually see it happen.


That would depend on a woman's willingness to openly state what feels good to her. 
Not all women will do that.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

jonty30 said:


> I would say that perhaps racism was more open in the South, not worse. The ghettoization of blacks in the North started right after the Civil War and lives to this day and no hard liberal that I'm aware of wants to change those social conditions to allow complete free movement, based on income, of people across the cities or state. I've yet to hear a hard liberal who advocates for ending the ghettoization of blacks.


You missed the part about the 1950's experience... that's a pretty big miss...

Going a step further you could talk about minority ghettos in general not just Black America. Racist housing discrimination in the past was directly responsible for the incredible Chinese food you can enjoy in Chinatown today. In fact you could argue the Gentlemen Agreement was the only immigrant ban based solely on race and not on Country of Origin...

But then we get into conversations of generational wealth and that leads to tearing apart the "good schools /bad schools" comment from earlier. If for generations you could only settle in one part of town and were limited to specific low paying jobs then it's very probable those areas would have a much lower tax base... But hey how many people besides me know where to find old housing maps of major cities? Ever wonder where "South Central" came to be in Los Angeles?


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

jonty30 said:


> In the South, they've integrated. They only thing that separates people is their level of income. However, people of like income, regardless of their skin colour, attend the same schools and same social events.
> 
> It is in Democrat states where people are segregated. You have black neighbourhoods, with black kids attending underfunded black schools. This is the deliberate policy of Democrat cities and states, but liberals say nice things. They say nice things, but maintain separate living. People in the South will be more honest with each other, but they all attend the same stuff with no separation.


Great and accurate points.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

It's the people from up North that when hearing a person, black or white speak with a southern accent, assume automatically that person is slower and uneducated. 

People from the South do not assume that.

Just thought I'd throw that out there re the last few posts. Sorry if a TJ comment. All done.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

crashdawg said:


> You missed the part about the 1950's experience... that's a pretty big miss...
> 
> Going a step further you could talk about minority ghettos in general not just Black America. Racist housing discrimination in the past was directly responsible for the incredible Chinese food you can enjoy in Chinatown today. In fact you could argue the Gentlemen Agreement was the only immigrant ban based solely on race and not on Country of Origin...
> 
> But then we get into conversations of generational wealth and that leads to tearing apart the "good schools /bad schools" comment from earlier. If for generations you could only settle in one part of town and were limited to specific low paying jobs then it's very probable those areas would have a much lower tax base... But hey how many people besides me know where to find old housing maps of major cities? Ever wonder where "South Central" came to be in Los Angeles?


As I said, it was more open. Hard liberals simply kept their mouths shut and simply proceeded to keep blacks from succeeding in Democrat states through policies. 
Generational wealth is not an issue in the South, where a person can build a net worth by working hard. It's only an issue in Democrat states, where liberal polcies keep poor people poor and dependent. 
Los Angeles is in a strong Democrat state, so I don't think I need to state why blacks in Los Angeles are in disadvantaged neighbourhoods like they are in New York or Detroit or Chicago or any of the other Democrat cities in North America.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Diana7 said:


> You can be educated without explicit films surely?
> I mean we can teach kids how babies are made, they don't need to actually see it happen.


There's a reason doctors do residency that covers the medical conditions they're intending to specialize in. There is also a reason modern classrooms use video prior to cadaver, prior to live observation... Watching a how to video that was neither explicit nor hardcore hardly qualifies as your definition of porn no matter how badly you may wish to back out of this conversation and save face. The fact that it helped my marriage and this is a forum designed to help marriages, and it has nothing to do with your marriage, and yet here we are with people strongly objecting to the very content that helped my marriage... not lost on me. I get it, it may not be defensible with logic but it's not your thing.

The fact that I ripped through someone's daughter/ someone's wife is equally laughable. They are titles. Titles classify things but they do not humanize individuals. A wife is almost always someone's daughter (modern medicine could have been a son). That is a straw man argument in the truest sense.

And please don't use the kids argument. We're adults here and it was produced by adults, found on an adult website and used by 2 consenting adults. If your argument is kids have access to it they also have access to drugs and alcohol (of which you've already side stepped) and it is the parental responsibility to protect their kids.

On that note I do agree on placing adult content on the .xxx as it would make rudimentary filtering easier.

But it is tiring circling back and explaining against a feeling that doesn't have a logical stance beyond being uncomfortable with the content...


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

jonty30 said:


> As I said, it was more open. Hard liberals simply kept their mouths shut and simply proceeded to keep blacks from succeeding in Democrat states through policies.
> Generational wealth is not an issue in the South, where a person can build a net worth by working hard. It's only an issue in Democrat states, where liberal polcies keep poor people poor and dependent.
> Los Angeles is in a strong Democrat state, so I don't think I need to state why blacks in Los Angeles are in disadvantaged neighbourhoods like they are in New York or Detroit or Chicago or any of the other Democrat cities in North America.


Did you seriously make the case that generational wealth is not an issue in an area that instituted violent free labor for the first 150 years of it's existence as America? Am I read that right? Because even the absolute most conservative history books are against you on that detail...

Racism in "the North" was absolutely there it was simply more nuanced after WW2. Please take a minute to tell me when Orange County California schools integrated (it'll shock you). Given 10 minutes I could probably find the case... But I hate to burst your bubble the racist housing policies transcended political party. A quick look in any "old" city will have a Chinatown, a Black hood" etc. The term "wrong side of the tracks" is based on areas segregated by landmarks like railroad tracks. Please take the time to grow beyond the political mentality of Liberal or Conservative... there's a lot more history to life.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> It's the people from up North that when hearing a person, black or white speak with a southern accent, assume automatically that person is slower and uneducated.
> 
> People from the South do not assume that.
> 
> Just thought I'd throw that out there re the last few posts. Sorry if a TJ comment. All done.


Yeah, and the almost universal depictions in TV and movies of the stereotypical moron or racist with a southern accent certainly creates and feeds that prejudice. They are depicted that way in EVERYTHING.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

crashdawg said:


> There's a reason doctors do residency that covers the medical conditions they're intending to specialize in. There is also a reason modern classrooms use video prior to cadaver, prior to live observation... Watching a how to video that was neither explicit nor hardcore hardly qualifies as your definition of porn no matter how badly you may wish to back out of this conversation and save face. The fact that it helped my marriage and this is a forum designed to help marriages, and it has nothing to do with your marriage, and yet here we are with people strongly objecting to the very content that helped my marriage... not lost on me. I get it, it may not be defensible with logic but it's not your thing.
> 
> The fact that I ripped through someone's daughter/ someone's wife is equally laughable. They are titles. Titles classify things but they do not humanize individuals. A wife is almost always someone's daughter (modern medicine could have been a son). That is a straw man argument in the truest sense.
> 
> ...


You can call it educational if you like,but it's still bringing others into the marriage. It's still watching other people having sex. There are ways of learning without actually having to see it happen. 

Oh and save face about what exactly?


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> I am talking about an individual having an extra occasional drink as opposed to watching porn.


Again, the way I define harm and negative effects place alcohol FIRMLY in the "much worse" category compared to porn.

There is absolutely more harm in having one alcoholic drink compared to watching one porn video, in my opinion.

I am not trying to change your mind, but for ME, alcohol is many times worse than porn, and has NO benefits to the consumer.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> It's the people from up North that when hearing a person, black or white speak with a southern accent, assume automatically that person is slower and uneducated.
> 
> People from the South do not assume that.
> 
> Just thought I'd throw that out there re the last few posts. Sorry if a TJ comment. All done.


Some of the smartest individuals I know have Deep South accents and take 5 minutes to finish a sentence. In some of those circles if you don't have an accent your opinion is automatically discounted. The only thing I know is if you have a Boston accent there's confusion over car keys and khakis and you still a bad driver!


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Diana7 said:


> You can call it educational if you like,but it's still bringing others into the marriage. It's still watching other people having sex. There are ways of learning without actually having to see it happen.
> 
> Oh and save face about what exactly?


So you've never met someone who only watched porn once? It's absolutely all or nothing? They can have 1 drink but they'll beat off for life... that's the summary?

And to clarify I watched video tutorials on specific sex acts to learn how to be better at them. "We" as in wife and I, didn't watch them I did. But I mentioned WE did watch Beat Bobby Flay to become better cooks and they showed his competition, the judges, and the audience so that's an orgy! Or are we allowed to better our skills in other areas via video?


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

crashdawg said:


> Did you seriously make the case that generational wealth is not an issue in an area that instituted violent free labor for the first 150 years of it's existence as America? Am I read that right? Because even the absolute most conservative history books are against you on that detail...
> 
> Racism in "the North" was absolutely there it was simply more nuanced after WW2. Please take a minute to tell me when Orange County California schools integrated (it'll shock you). Given 10 minutes I could probably find the case... But I hate to burst your bubble the racist housing policies transcended political party. A quick look in any "old" city will have a Chinatown, a Black hood" etc. The term "wrong side of the tracks" is based on areas segregated by landmarks like railroad tracks. Please take the time to grow beyond the political mentality of Liberal or Conservative... there's a lot more history to life.


Yeah I did. Asians were just as poor as blacks at the turn of the 20th century, but they now have the highest net worths of all the different ethnic communities. There is such a thing as a natural level for groups in a free society and not everybody is going to have the same net level because the communities overall make different choices for themselves and there are different capabilities between groups. As long as people are free to work to their potential, society has no responsibility to them to ensure they have equality with other people.

Achieving equality of outcomes means that you must oppress those with greater potential and make it more difficult and costly for them to succeed. In the case of liberalism in America, hard liberals advocate for the same oppression and hatred towards whites that they were advocating against blacks in the 1950's. If racism is wrong, it is wrong to do it to anybody. Hard liberals are just as wrong to hate whites and oppress them as they were when they hated blacks and acted to oppress them.

The 20th century was the century of societal control by hard liberals. In the 20th century, hard liberals murdered 250 million people, started the majority of major wars and enslaved over a billion people. However, when you ask the hard liberal about that, they never say that they were wrong. They always say that they had good intentions and that it just wasn't done right and that we should keep the policies that did so much evil in the 20th century. In the 21st century, hard liberals seek to use their policies against conservative white people.

Racism in the North is only more nuanced, because the liberals of the North never admit to what they are up to, but we can see what they are up to by the effect their policies have on the respective populations. Hard liberals exercise explicit hatred against blacks, but those hard liberals blame conservative whites for the policies of the hard liberals and demand conservative whites pay the price for the sins of the hard liberal. The real intent of the hard liberal is to oppress everybody to ensure their societal and economic advantages. It's why hard liberals have stretched kindergarten level skills over 12 years in the public school system, but they keep their kids in private schools to obtain a real education.

Party doesn't matter. The Republican party has plenty of Democrats, who mouth the words of Republicanism, while supporting the policies of the hard left.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Agreed. I doubt if anyone has ever killed someone behind the wheel from having an erection but they certain have from driving drunk.


This is a very serious conversation and you make a good point. Meanwhile, I’m over here visualizing someone driving with their erect penis (maybe they’re eating fries while they drive and need both hands to dip into the ketchup) and giggling like an idiot. Is it better than driving with your knees? Can you move it around to steer? I’m such a child. Sorry. 🙄😉😂😂😂😂😂😉😉


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

jonty30 said:


> Yeah I did. Asians were just as poor as blacks at the turn of the 20th century, but they now have the highest net worths of all the different ethnic communities. There is such a thing as a natural level for groups in a free society and not everybody is going to have the same net level because the communities overall make different choices for themselves and there are different capabilities between groups. As long as people are free to work to their potential, society has no responsibility to them to ensure they have equality with other people.
> 
> Achieving equality of outcomes means that you must oppress those with greater potential and make it more difficult and costly for them to succeed. In the case of liberalism in America, hard liberals advocate for the same oppression and hatred towards whites that they were advocating against blacks in the 1950's. If racism is wrong, it is wrong to do it to anybody. Hard liberals are just as wrong to hate white and oppress them as they were when they hated blacks and acted to oppress them.
> 
> ...


#1 it's not equality of outcomes it's equality of opportunity. They weren't given an equal chance irrespective of potential outcome.

#2 Asians were certainly discriminated against throughout American History. The Gentleman Act and Japanese internment being 2 of the most egregious examples. That said they had far fewer limits placed on them outside of those examples and after WW2 became extremely successful in a variety of industries.

#3 The concept of Generational wealth is the ability to... well... transfer wealth to the next generation. That's incredibly difficult to do if it's outlawed and you're a slave and any form of education for you is illegal oh and your labor is free... So naturally after the Civil War the thought is hey start passing it on... except your ability to vote was limited, you still lacked education, the very property you were on was rented not owned, oh and people wanted to kill you simply for being Black. So 1920's right.. nope... see Tulsa as a great example. Gotta be 1930's... well Depression hit so at least everyone is poor but hey racist hiring policies and if you're hired you're legally paid less. 1940's... WW2 had segregated units. Then you came home to Segregation (North, South, East, West). We already discussed 1950's...

SO... Starting in the 1960's many Black families began accumulating generational wealth. So... what... 3 generations roughly?

BUT IT GETS BETTER... Due to racist housing policies and lack of generational wealth many couldn't afford a down payment and could get bank approval for home loans until the late 60's early 70's... so even 3 generations is a stretch and we didn't even cover taxes or wages or anything else that is JUST passing on a house...

There's plenty of historical resources out there. Please take the time to explore this further. What I rattled off doesn't even scratch the surface.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> This is a very serious conversation and you make a good point. Meanwhile, I’m over here visualizing someone driving with their erect penis (maybe they’re eating fries while they drive and need both hands to dip into the ketchup) and giggling like an idiot. Is it better than driving with your knees? Can you move it around to steer? I’m such a child. Sorry. 🙄😉😂😂😂😂😂😉😉


I believe the DMV term is "distracted driving" but I'm sure Pornhub in has plenty of how to videos on it as well...


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Agreed. I doubt if anyone has ever killed someone behind the wheel from having an erection but they certain have from driving drunk.


Do we count the lives lost based on sperm count? And in that context is swallowing cannibalism? (damn he went there, dark humor, try not to laugh)

I'm sure plenty of lives have been conceived, typically parked, but maybe someone up front was driving... not my thing... Then again Tesla already has an incident of someone using autopilot to have sex so there's that as well. I bet Truckers would be the most likely to express how common sexual acts in cars are (I'm actually serious in this section in case someone assumed full sarcasm based on the swallow joke earlier). They have the high ground and the miles to say how common it is.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

crashdawg said:


> #1 it's not equality of outcomes it's equality of opportunity. They weren't given an equal chance irrespective of potential outcome.
> 
> #2 Asians were certainly discriminated against throughout American History. The Gentleman Act and Japanese internment being 2 of the most egregious examples. That said they had far fewer limits placed on them outside of those examples and after WW2 became extremely successful in a variety of industries.
> 
> ...


1. Everybody has equality of opportunity. Everybody, but the hard liberals, attends the public school system and they get the same teachings. If it is just equality of opportunity, we have that. That's not what the hard liberal wants. He wants an equality of outcome. He wants a societal cake. However, in his desire to have a societal cake, he has to adjust the ingredients to ensure there is more of one thing and less of another. I can show you articles of hard liberals complaining about too many Asians or the the wrong kind of black (Africans, not African-Americans) who are succeeding.

2. Asians overcome by overperforming. As they proved their ability, racism fell by the wayside, except from the hard liberal. The hard liberal considers Asians to be white people and permits himself to oppress them.

3. It's a standard tradition that wealth dissipates by about the third generation. 1. People accustomed to easy living don't like to work hard, so they tend to spend the money that previous generations earned. 2. As that rich families gets more family members, the wealth spread gets thinned out. Very few families have encultured themselves to have permanent wealth. 

4. Blacks were on their way up, until LBJ signed in the great welfare act. He says explicitly that it was done to disadvantage blacks and keep them from moving ahead, by removing opportunity from them but keeping them on the hook by giving them, through welfare, a little bit of wealth. What happened in the 1960's to blacks was a hard liberal project.


*“These N*groes, they're getting pretty uppity these days and that's a problem for us since they've got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we've got to do something about this, we've got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference. For if we don't move at all, then their allies will line up against us and there'll be no way of stopping them, we'll lose the filibuster and there'll be no way of putting a brake on all sorts of wild legislation. It'll be Reconstruction all over again. [Said to Senator Richard Russell, Jr. (D-GA) regarding the Civil Rights Act of 1957]”*

5. Any issues about housing is simply due to income differences. When Bill Clinton signed legislation in 1996, to force banks to lend to unqualified applicants, to get as many people into housing as possible, it resulted in the 2008 housing crisis, where those unqualified applicants ended up losing their homes anyway. What Bill Clinton did was a favour to his rich friends, as they snapped those defaulted mortages by paying what was owed and allowing them to sell those houses at the full price. 

Now, if you want to solve inequality, get the government out of the way and remove BS obstacles and let them succeed.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

@FloridaGuy1 

When younger, with gfs, there are long stretches of interstates, that I'm guilty of. But my first priority was not getting in an accident. It can be done.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

Out of respect for everyone on here I refuse to quote that. It's odd that you would chose to quote a politician who was on record as saying he was a "conservative Southern Democrat standing up against those liberal long haired hippies". He was known for going into racial tirades yet you toss in on here so causally.

Worse still that you believe everyone had an equal chance when clearly for most of American history they did not. Elements of this thread are littered with examples of people not having an equal chance simply because they were a woman... imagine being a woman and a minority...

And very alarming that your focus is on 1990's banking policy not pre Civil Rights banking policy that prevented even VA home loans to minority Vets unless they moved to specific neighborhoods thereby enforcing existing pre Civil War racist housing policies as well as segregation. Again all of this meticulously documented since most of it was the law of the land at that time. We could also discuss how Jim Crow was a direct response to Reconstruction efforts (many of which in themselves were extremely corrupt).

I don't see a point in discussing this topic further it's terrifying to think of how much of our history was so easily forgotten.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

crashdawg said:


> Out of respect for everyone on here I refuse to quote that. It's odd that you would chose to quote a politician who was on record as saying he was a "conservative Southern Democrat standing up against those liberal long haired hippies". He was known for going into racial tirades yet you toss in on here so causally.
> 
> Worse still that you believe everyone had an equal chance when clearly for most of American history they did not. Elements of this thread are littered with examples of people not having an equal chance simply because they were a woman... imagine being a woman and a minority...
> 
> ...


I just tell the truth. You're refusal to debate is simply a refusal to debate truth.
We've had equal opportunity for no less than two generations. 
Your definition of equality is outcome based, not opportunity. That makes you an oppressor and a racist, because you have a hatred of white people and a desire to oppress them and remove opportunities from them in order to achieve your outcome based equality. It is an evil POV that you have. It is the exact same point of view that hard liberals had in the 20th century when they murdered 250 million people and enslaved over a billion. They were evil people and you share their point of view, but you feel completely self-righteous, while sharing their evil point of view.

It's been two generations. As long as everybody has the same opportunity going in, society has fulfilled its obligations to people. The outcome equality based hard liberal is an oppressor and a racist. He is everything he decries.

All the policies that kept blacks down after the civil were done by the hard liberal. And, instead of repenting of that mindset, the hard liberal want to pivot and use those same policies against white people. 

So, go ahead and not debate me. Everybody sees your positions for what they are.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> In my experience, porn causes FAR LESS damage than alcohol.
> 
> And I bet plenty of women leer over porn as well.


?????


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> You can be educated without explicit films surely?
> I mean we can teach kids how babies are made, they don't need to actually see it happen.


I know quite a few people, actually a hell of a lot including myself, who are pretty good at sex without any "learning" being done by watching prostitutes get it on.


----------



## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

The fact that you are comfortable quoting a man who was openly racist is horrible. The fact that you double down on that statement by assuming that 1 or 2 generations is more than enough time to call it generational wealth, more than enough time to save for college or a house... that you claim it is fair despite centuries of systemic racism... I am stunned. It took centuries of systemic racism to cause this. 1 or 2 generations can't suddenly fix it no matter how uncomfortable you may feel about it.

That is a sick, twisted combination of ignorance and racism. Your comments are nowhere near the truth. Life in and of itself is not fair but having an equal opportunity to make your own way is a fundamental right that was denied to sooo many for sooo long. They are making their way and in time this country will heal. You are out of your depth parroting the positions of others without being able to fully comprehend how evil it truly is, how hurtful it is, how damaging it is.

It will take decades of all of us working together to make progress. I'm stunned that moderators felt your comments were even remotely appropriate and shocked that it's left to me as the only voice to openly call it out.

As a Christian I pray for you but I will not debate with an ignorant racist. Even I have my limits.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Moderator notice: *This thread is temporarily closed whilst a very long thread jack is dealt with.


----------

