# The bad side of the 180



## OKwhatsnext? (Aug 13, 2012)

I have been leary of several divorce "self helps" simply because I felt it didn't fit my situation and I felt like it was like playing games. I have had a hard time with breaking apart my family, and have missed his boys terribly. I decided last week to go completely silent. I had been asking multiple times a week to see them, got them a cell phone so the kids could talk etc. All with the kids, they have ipods/ipads so they all do facetime as well. Sometimes it was allowed, mostly it was not. It has been 3 months now and I have needed to ask more to get a yes from him, and the brainwashing they are getting from MIL is ridiculous. I can't even blame stbxh for this, he hates it as well, but has needed somewhere to live so he lets her do it. Anyway, the last 2 nights they have called my kids every chance they get, facetime continually now that they are in there new apartment and MIL is not controlling them, and I have not initiated contact. While showing the house they showed stbxh's room. The 180 rules are written up on posterboard on his wall with highlights and colored postits saying "keep strong, that's what she wants to see" and "Make her miss YOU" 

OMG!!! My boys are seeing this.... Living this.... They told my daughter he said to wait until I called them so that I would know what it was like without them. So when I didn't call, he said now they could call because I was hurting. 9 and 11 and already being taught to manipulate a woman.

Even if there had been a chance of fixing us, there is NO WAY IN FLAMING HELL I would get back together with him now! The feeling of being toyed with has my blood boiling! Why are people being told to manipulate others instead of just plain old WORK ON IT?! There has been no effort (until forced by the courts) to work on his anger and violence, no apologies, nothing, but "How to manipulate her into thinking she needs you" (OK not what it says, but how I feel) Yes, guys, sit back, do nothing except treat her like she means nothing, make her think you don't want her and she will come pleading back to you because you are so wonderful and she is nothing. 

I am so completely humiliated thinking that he is actively trying to make me feel insignificant enough use 2 little boys to make me come running back to him. 

I hate being angry, and right now I am so bitter angry I can't stand myself. My decision to go NC was to help myself not get hurt by the rejection of not being able to see the boys if I didn't make him happy enough. NOT to manipulate him into something. I am so incredibly affirmed in my decision to break things cleanly now and be done. I will always miss those boys, but they are not my kids anymore, and they are not being raised the way I want my kids to be raised, I only hope they will be good men, but I can't be part of it anymore.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

OKwhatsnext? said:


> I have been leary of several divorce "self helps" simply because I felt it didn't fit my situation and I felt like it was like playing games.


Both you and your husband do not understand the 180. It has nothing to do with manipulating anyone or playing games. It has to do with a person pulling themselves out of the drama and working on improving themself. It also calls for some level of lowered contact to allow the person to stop being so needy.

Also, there is no one 180. Doing a ‘180’ means to do things completely different than you have been doing them. This comes from the idea that if what you have been doing has not worked, stop doing it. So if a person has been pleading with their spouse to get back together and showing them with gifts… stop it already. 

The 180’s that are posted are only suggested guidelines. A person should change them for their own circumstance.


OKwhatsnext? said:


> I have had a hard time with breaking apart my family, and have missed his boys terribly. I decided last week to go completely silent. I had been asking multiple times a week to see them, got them a cell phone so the kids could talk etc.


Why are your children with your husband? Why do you have to ask him for time with your children?


OKwhatsnext? said:


> OMG!!! My boys are seeing this.... Living this.... They told my daughter he said to wait until I called them so that I would know what it was like without them. So when I didn't call, he said now they could call because I was hurting. 9 and 11 and already being taught to manipulate a woman.


Well you sons are the only ones seeing this. So I think your daughter is being taught this as well.

How do you know that your daughter was told this? Did you hear it? Did she tell you?



OKwhatsnext? said:


> Even if there had been a chance of fixing us, there is NO WAY IN FLAMING HELL I would get back together with him now! The feeling of being toyed with has my blood boiling! Why are people being told to manipulate others instead of just plain old WORK ON IT?!


I don’t know where you husband got his advice from. But no one here is told to manipulate others. They are told to follow the 180 for themselves… to calm themself down and start working on improving themselves. And then if their spouse will agree to ‘WORK ON IT’ they should “WORK ON IT’ together. No one can ‘WORK ON IT’ all by themselves.



OKwhatsnext? said:


> There has been no effort (until forced by the courts) to work on his anger and violence, no apologies, nothing, but "How to manipulate her into thinking she needs you" (OK not what it says, but how I feel) Yes, guys, sit back, do nothing except treat her like she means nothing, make her think you don't want her and she will come pleading back to you because you are so wonderful and she is nothing.


I think that the reason that you feel like the 180 is about manipulation is that is how your husband seems to be using it. He’s wrong, very wrong. Your reaction to his attempt o manipulate you is a valid response. His brining your children into it is VERY wrong.

I’m not surprised that he has misunderstood the 180. He has serious problems (anger & violence) that he will not address. So he looks at things superficially. He’s doing the same thing with the 180.. following the words, not the deep meaning of them. He’s not looking deep into himself to fix things.

Keep in mind that if he has serious anger and violence issues, the 180 is like putting a band aide on a shark bite. It’s not going to do anything to help. When there is violence is a marriage, the only good advice for a lay person to give is for the couple to separate to avoid the violence and the both of them get counseling. The angry/violent person needs very specific counseling for their issues. People who use emotional and physical abuse to control others seldom change. Staying with them is like playing with fire.


OKwhatsnext? said:


> I am so completely humiliated thinking that he is actively trying to make me feel insignificant enough use 2 little boys to make me come running back to him.


Why would you feel humiliated when it’s he who is doing something wrong? It’s he who is trying to use your children who manipulate you. It’s he who refuses to look at and fix the root cause of (anger/violence) within himself. 


OKwhatsnext? said:


> I hate being angry, and right now I am so bitter angry I can't stand myself. My decision to go NC was to help myself not get hurt by the rejection of not being able to see the boys if I didn't make him happy enough. NOT to manipulate him into something. I am so incredibly affirmed in my decision to break things cleanly now and be done. I will always miss those boys, but they are not my kids anymore, and they are not being raised the way I want my kids to be raised, I only hope they will be good men, but I can't be part of it anymore.


Are these children your step children? If they are then your decision to break away completely, under the circumstances seems wise.


----------



## papa5280 (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm confused. Has he posted the 180 stuff on the fridge in the kitchen? In the living room? No wonder you're furious.:scratchhead:

I thought you said he had it in his bedroom. If so, he has it there as an affirmation to himself as to what he needs to remind himself to do. That's not using the kids, that's working on himself.

And, what exactly is wrong with the messages you saw? 

"Keep strong, that's what she wants to see". He's saying to himself that being weak isn't attractive. He's working on making himself more attractive to you, by his way of thinking.

"Make her miss YOU". Again, if he's thinking he wants to get you back, he would want you to miss HIM. Nothing manipulative in that. If you left a job and wanted to be hired back, you'd work to make them miss you, and appreciate what you gave them.

(BTW, both sentiments show a complete misunderstanding of the 180 on his part. A true 180 is about making himself into the man he wants to be. A man doesn't do it because of how their ex will feel about it, but because of how the man will feel about himself. But that's not neccessarily manipulative, that's just counterproductive.)


----------



## OKwhatsnext? (Aug 13, 2012)

1. These are my 2 stepsons. I have 2 of my own, he has 2. Unfortunately once you have "become" a mother, by whatever means, it isn't easy to undo those feelings.
2. My daughter is 16 and I trust what she tells me, she loves her little brothers so much and is also hurt by the separation. When she was telling my about what they told her, it was because she asked them why they hadn't been calling, and was relieved it was not them, but a rule they were following.
3. He does not live with me, or even in the same town, he is an hour an a half away. He has this posted in his room, and I just saw it last night when the boys who were excited about being in their own home (they have been staying with stbxmil) I am not sure if he wanted me to see it or not, I have no idea anymore, but since he was home and very controlling over what is said when he overhears, I am sure he was aware they were in his room. I can tell by how they look in his direction while on facetime that he is aware and controlling what is said. I know him, I know his looks, and when he gives one of them to the kids they stop talking immediately.
4. Not only are they seeing the boards and postits, they are being used and participating, although unwittingly, in manipulating. Whether they understand it or not, they are learning how to act in a relationship by what they see. 
5. It is not exactly seeing the messages that has me angry, it is finally realizing that his behavior over the last 3 months, getting me to ask multiple times to see the boys, giving me "we'll see, check back with me tonight" answers kept me strung along and constantly contacting him. He was NOT trying to make things easier on the kids, he was trying to "Make me miss him" He was not going to counseling or classes for abusing me, he was ignoring requests to see his kids, again, to "Make me see how it was without them" It just looks to me like the lazy person's way (Husband OR wife) to get a spouse back. Thinking about it I have NO idea why I am so angry about this. I guess I should be flattered? I am just not. He is playing games, whether he is correctly understanding "doing" a 180 or not, he is actually showing a side of himself that is extremely out of my realm of "attractive" Our marriage was over the minute he cleared out my house. I have never once let him think it was any other way. I filed for divorce within a week of him being arrested and have followed through every step on the correct dates etc. I have helped him start over in a new city, and wish him well, or I did... I am angrier than I have ever been. I have been so sad, almost guilty sad for breaking up my family, but there is 2 people here and while I have been trying to make things easier on them, he has been trying to hurt me and my kids, and hurting his own in the process. NOT the kind of man I want to be with.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

All of these things he is doing have a purpose.
When you are separated and going to get a divorce, it's sometimes necessary to detach yourself emotionally from the person. That allows you to make the hard decisions from a logical perspective.

Instead of being angry, try looking at it from his perspective.
You are separated. He needs to detach emotionally to prepare himself for a life without you. All the things he is doing points to that. He's trying to un-love you. And needs reminders on how to do that. It can't be easy for him. 

If you are already detached, you would not be calling him. Do you intend to divorce, are you working on reconcilling?


----------



## OKwhatsnext? (Aug 13, 2012)

deejov said:


> If you are already detached, you would not be calling him. Do you intend to divorce, are you working on reconcilling?


I have already filed and it will be final in 2 weeks. I do not call him, I text to see if I can take the boys for meals or to the park. The kids (my 2 and his 2) do Facetime (similar to skype, but with Ipod/Ipad) and they will occasionally ask to talk to me. I bought the boys a cell phone so that they could call (mostly to stay in contact with the kids) while they were waiting to get internet. I have not "spoken" to my stbxh since I brought the final papers for him to sign and he found out that was the last time I would be seeing him, he thought we would date and get to be "friends" again. Since then he has respected my wishes about contact with him, unfortunately with the boys as well, unless he needed a sitter. I believe I am already unattached, but when I get these bursts of anger I have to wonder exactly where they are coming from.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Everyone detaches in their own way. 
Some have more trouble than others. Let him work it out in his own way, and understand that you have no business or right to wonder about "how" he is doing it. Maybe try to understand it a little bit, and help him if you can. Not out of love, but respect for another human being, and as the father of your children. 

The opposite of love isn't hate. It's apathy. Apathy is where you truly do not CARE what he is doing. Give him some space, if you can, to work it out on his own. 

It's hard. You have kids together. You will always be connected. 
Anger isn't an emotion you would want to share together, but respect would be more constructive. 

Good luck to you, I hope things work out.


----------

