# How do you deal with patriarchy in the outside world?



## Aburjwal (Feb 20, 2018)

My husband and I (28 and 25) both belong to India, unfortunately predominantly a patriarchal society. It seems whenever we go together for some important work - getting the lease signed, filing important papers, filing a complaint with the police, I am almost always dismissed and it's he who is addressed. Most people only speak to him, only take his signature and only discuss important matters with him despite both of us being equal for all intents and purposes within our home. It has started to really trigger me. It makes me feel really small and insignificant. A recent incident in the police station led me to throw a fit on our way home.

How do you deal with patriarchy in the outside world? Do you let it go or address it head on? Some advice?


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## Pam (Oct 7, 2010)

I am a lot older than you are, but I attack it head on most of the time, especially now that I am a widow. But many years ago, my husband and I went to trade my car in for a new one; the salesman would only address my husband. We left, mostly because he wouldn't come off his price, and I called a dealer in a close city and we both traded; that salesman dealt only with me on the phone. The original salesman called me and asked what he could have done differently, and I told him that his big mistake was ignoring me.

I don't know really what you can do, other than demand to be recognized; do you have that kind of personality?


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

that's a tough one.

unless you want to become a crusader for change and take on the whole societal structure at the risk of great harm to yourself,
then you are going to have to learn to adapt. 

I have lived in a number of foreign countries and had to adapt. i learned myself that you are just one person and society doesn't take much 
stock of you whether you're a foreigner or not. adapt. take the good parts and learn to live with the bad. try to enjoy what the country has to offer.

I remember when my dad took a job in saudi arabia, my mom went to visit him. when he picked her up at the airport, on the way to his hotel, they 
were stopped by the police. why? because someone saw them kissing at the airport and reported it. they had to show proof of marriage license or they would have been in trouble.
a man and a women are not allowed together alone or the slightest intimacy in public unless they can show proof of marriage or some other legitimate reason to be together.


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## Aburjwal (Feb 20, 2018)

Pam said:


> I am a lot older than you are, but I attack it head on most of the time, especially now that I am a widow. But many years ago, my husband and I went to trade my car in for a new one; the salesman would only address my husband. We left, mostly because he wouldn't come off his price, and I called a dealer in a close city and we both traded; that salesman dealt only with me on the phone. The original salesman called me and asked what he could have done differently, and I told him that his big mistake was ignoring me.
> 
> I don't know really what you can do, other than demand to be recognized; do you have that kind of personality?


I do try to deal with it head on. But sometimes when I feel like trying to address it in the moment might derail our original objective, I step back. For example in the recent incident, we had gone to the police station to file a complaint against a guy who had killed one of the stray dogs we fed. The officer was addressing only my husband throughout and even blatantly dismissed me at one point. But I chose not to say something because I knew that if I addressed this, he would not file our complaint.


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## Aburjwal (Feb 20, 2018)

jorgegene said:


> that's a tough one.
> 
> unless you want to become a crusader for change and take on the whole societal structure at the risk of great harm to yourself,
> then you are going to have to learn to adapt.
> ...


Yes but those countries were foreign to you and at some point, you would return to your home country where (hopefully) things would be better. This is where I live and probably will die. I do adapt a lot, but it happens so frequently that it has started to get on my nerves. It makes me feel like I haven't really accomplished anything in life.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I can imagine in countries like yours this can be very stressful and frustrating. I am not sure what I would do. Probably much like you, I would speak out when it is possible but step back when it is going to derail whatever my objective is.

Thankfully, in the United States we do NOT have to worry about this. Some would imagine we do....but we do NOT.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

This is why I avoided certain ethnicities when it was time to choose a husband.

Call me unPC if you want.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Aburjwal said:


> My husband and I (28 and 25) both belong to India, unfortunately predominantly a patriarchal society. It seems whenever we go together for some important work - getting the lease signed, filing important papers, filing a complaint with the police, I am almost always dismissed and it's he who is addressed. Most people only speak to him, only take his signature and only discuss important matters with him despite both of us being equal for all intents and purposes within our home. It has started to really trigger me. It makes me feel really small and insignificant. A recent incident in the police station led me to throw a fit on our way home.
> 
> How do you deal with patriarchy in the outside world? Do you let it go or address it head on? Some advice?


I live in the USA, but this is pretty common here, even today. Here are some of the things that I've done.

When I have shopped for cars, expensive camera equiptment, etc. with my boyfriend or later husband in tow, the same thing happened to me. This happened even though I made it clear that I was the one making the final decision and paying for the item that was being bought. What I did was to leave and not buy the item. And before leaving, I told the sales person why. "I am the one buying this. It's my decision, yet you are not addressing me. So I will not buy a car from you."

On one occasion I was buying very expensive camera equipment, thousands of dollars worth. This was before I married. But my fiancé with shopping with me. The camera store clerk was a woman, she ended up flirting with my fiancé to the point that I was completely excluded. She was showing him lenses, cameras, etc. If I asked her something, she ignored me. And of course my stupid fiancé was eating up all the attention. So I let her go on and on. She was placing all sorts of equipment on the counter. After some time, I stopped her and told her that I, not he, was the one buying and I walked out. She was fuming. Not only did this take up a lot of her time, she lost a big commission and still had to put all that stuff away. It felt good to do that.

Another thing that happened was that one time, right after I married that fiancé, I agreed to make a good sized donation to a charity. They sent a letter, but it was addressed to my husband and not me. I was making the donation from my money, not him or his money. That letter was the proverbial 'straw that broke the camel's back'. It made me feel completely invisible, as if I no longer existed. So I wrote back to the charity that I withdrew my large pledge because I was making the donation but they wrote to my husband, whose name I had not even given them. They had to look up his name to send the letter to him.

Basically, I got to the point where I made all final deals without my husband there if it was me doing the transaction and my money paying for it. If it was the two of us doing the deal... I had spoken to my husband at length about this topic and he became very much aware of it so he made sure that I was not treated like wall paper.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Aburjwal said:


> I do try to deal with it head on. But sometimes when I feel like trying to address it in the moment might derail our original objective, I step back. For example in the recent incident, we had gone to the police station to file a complaint against a guy who had killed one of the stray dogs we fed. The officer was addressing only my husband throughout and even blatantly dismissed me at one point. But I chose not to say something because I knew that if I addressed this, he would not file our complaint.


Sadly, in this situation, I don't think you could have done anything differently. Well, except you could have gone alone to file the complaint. How do you think the police would have interacted with you if you had made the complaint on your own?

Do you have a job? Or are you a stay-at-home wife/mom?


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## Aburjwal (Feb 20, 2018)

EleGirl said:


> I live in the USA, but this is pretty common here, even today. Here are some of the things that I've done.
> 
> When I have shopped for cars, expensive camera equiptment, etc. with my boyfriend or later husband in tow, the same thing happened to me. This happened even though I made it clear that I was the one making the final decision and paying for the item that was being bought. What I did was to leave and not buy the item. And before leaving, I told the sales person why. "I am the one buying this. It's my decision, yet you are not addressing me. So I will not buy a car from you."
> 
> ...


I guess that is what I would have done too, in cases where purchase of an item/service was involved. I don't know, however, what to do in situations where we have a bigger motive and walking away is not an option. For example, we had to get the lease signed on the new house or else we would not find another house soon enough (we had been served with an eviction notice already) or we had to file a complaint in the police station and he wouldn't have done if I had walked out. 

My husband and I have talked about it too but we both are at a loss when it comes to dealing with it in such situations. How do we take a stand, yet ensure that we get our work done?


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## Aburjwal (Feb 20, 2018)

EleGirl said:


> Sadly, in this situation, I don't think you could have done anything differently. Well, except you could have gone alone to file the complaint. How do you think the police would have interacted with you if you had made the complaint on your own?
> 
> Do you have a job? Or are you a stay-at-home wife/mom?


I guess they still would have been extremely dismissive and rude, but they wouldn't have a choice but to let me sign the complaint. 

I run my own dance studio.


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## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

Aburjwal said:


> My husband and I (28 and 25) both belong to India, unfortunately predominantly a patriarchal society. It seems whenever we go together for some important work - getting the lease signed, filing important papers, filing a complaint with the police, I am almost always dismissed and it's he who is addressed. Most people only speak to him, only take his signature and only discuss important matters with him despite both of us being equal for all intents and purposes within our home. It has started to really trigger me. It makes me feel really small and insignificant. A recent incident in the police station led me to throw a fit on our way home.
> 
> How do you deal with patriarchy in the outside world? Do you let it go or address it head on? Some advice?


If this happens in India then the solution is simple: emigrate or join a movement to enact social change. Unless your husband is fine with this then this is bigger than just a marital problem.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Aburjwal said:


> I guess that is what I would have done too, in cases where purchase of an item/service was involved. I don't know, however, what to do in situations where we have a bigger motive and walking away is not an option. For example, we had to get the lease signed on the new house or else we would not find another house soon enough (we had been served with an eviction notice already) or we had to file a complaint in the police station and he wouldn't have done if I had walked out.
> 
> My husband and I have talked about it too but we both are at a loss when it comes to dealing with it in such situations. How do we take a stand, yet ensure that we get our work done?


You husband could do a lot to help here. For example, he could bring you into the discussion and transaction. If you have a question, your husband could ensure that you are heard and answered.

For example, if you ask a question and the people involved in the transaction ignore you, your husband can say something like, "Aburjwal has a valid question. Could you please answer her?"

He could have done this in the police station when you were trying to speak up. He could have stopped whatever was being discussed and brought the conversation focus onto what you had to say. Again, he could have said something like "Aburjwal, could you repeat what you said as I think it's important."


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Aburjwal said:


> I guess they still would have been extremely dismissive and rude, but they wouldn't have a choice but to let me sign the complaint.


I figured that would be your answer. I lived in cultures similar to yours and know what you are talking about. I learned a lot watching my mom deal with this sort of thing. 



Aburjwal said:


> I run my own dance studio.


So you have a place where you feel that you have some power. That's good.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I can imagine in countries like yours this can be very stressful and frustrating. I am not sure what I would do. Probably much like you, I would speak out when it is possible but step back when it is going to derail whatever my objective is.
> 
> Thankfully, in the United States we do NOT have to worry about this. Some would imagine we do....but we do NOT.


Ah, Dear...

You have not been keeping up with the U.S. news. :frown2:

The old shoes have been replaced by new shoes that do not yet fit.

The media and the PC crowd, the #MeToo gals are trying to put feminine shoes on males. :|

Trying to make males more like females, actually less than females.

A strange thing this.

It makes me want to flee Earth. :surprise:

Makes me want to live on another planet, not Adonis.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SunCMars said:


> It makes me want to flee Earth. :surprise:
> 
> Makes me want to live on another planet, not Adonis.


My dear @SunCMars, I do believe that you left this planet a long time ago. >


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## Aburjwal (Feb 20, 2018)

EleGirl said:


> You husband could do a lot to help here. For example, he could bring you into the discussion and transaction. If you have a question, your husband could ensure that you are heard and answered.
> 
> For example, if you ask a question and the people involved in the transaction ignore you, your husband can say something like, "Aburjwal has a valid question. Could you please answer her?"
> 
> He could have done this in the police station when you were trying to speak up. He could have stopped whatever was being discussed and brought the conversation focus onto what you had to say. Again, he could have said something like "Aburjwal, could you repeat what you said as I think it's important."


I spoke to him. He admitted that he should have intervened, but he is dealing with his fear of confrontation and also gets anxious while dealing with cops. He says he is working on it, will take some time though.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Aburjwal said:


> I spoke to him. He admitted that he should have intervened, but he is dealing with his fear of confrontation and also gets anxious while dealing with cops. He says he is working on it, will take some time though.


Fear of confrontation is an issue. It's often what allows negative social norms to continue. I suppose you can gently keep working on your husband's ability to handle this. If he can do it in a non-confrontational way, it would work.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

30 years ago, this would happen sometimes with my first wife and me. What I did was to tell the salesman, "I don't know why you are talking to me. She's buying it. She's got the money."


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I live in the USA, but this is pretty common here, even today. Here are some of the things that I've done.
> 
> When I have shopped for cars, expensive camera equiptment, etc. with my boyfriend or later husband in tow, the same thing happened to me. This happened even though I made it clear that I was the one making the final decision and paying for the item that was being bought. What I did was to leave and not buy the item. And before leaving, I told the sales person why. "I am the one buying this. It's my decision, yet you are not addressing me. So I will not buy a car from you."
> 
> ...


I really wish I could have been standing next to you at that camera counter. As a decades long professional photographer, in what used to be a very male-dominated profession, I've seen so much of this. It got so bad that one of the professional organizations I belonged to created a women's division - then the some of the men started complaining that they were excluded...and insisted on showing up to the women's events in protest. :sleeping:

I remember showing up to a house where my assignment was to photograph a story subject there - and the guy who answered the door said "Oh, the reporter's already here and..." looking around me..."the photographer is supposed to be here any moment." :scratchhead: ...as I stood there with three cameras hanging off of me. 

What did I do about it? I decided to use the fact that people didn't take me very seriously to my advantage. It actually works out better for me if people don't notice me. 

I do think my personality molded around misogyny. I learned to be happy within myself and not look for validation outside of me. To my way of thinking, this is a better way to live anyway.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

This makes me grateful that I live in the UK. I can only remember once where something like this happened in recent years where my husband and I went to look at a car. The lady sales woman was clearly focused on my husband and wasn't dressed very modestly either. Needless to say we didn't buy that car and went somewhere where they were professional and focused on both of us as it was a car for both of us.
So this wasn't a man being patriarchal , but a woman trying to use her sexuality to sell a car. She was messing with the wrong lady.:surprise:


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

Pam said:


> I am a lot older than you are, but I attack it head on most of the time, especially now that I am a widow. But many years ago, my husband and I went to trade my car in for a new one; the salesman would only address my husband. We left, mostly because he wouldn't come off his price, and I called a dealer in a close city and we both traded; that salesman dealt only with me on the phone. The original salesman called me and asked what he could have done differently, and I told him that his big mistake was ignoring me.
> 
> I don't know really what you can do, other than demand to be recognized; do you have that kind of personality?



I think it depends on the situation. If we are out shopping for anything for the house, like furniture, linens, housewares, then it's Mrs. Wolfman who gets all the attention and I am practically banished off to corner.

Stuff they sell with emotions rather than with the head, they will be talking to the women first and foremost. The kicker is that when shopping for cars, electronics, tech stuff, etc., it's STILL often sold on the emotional high rather than pure "logic", but I don't think the guys purchasing realize it (I think the sales clerks realize it, though, at use it to their advantage).


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