# An opinion about the "affair fog"



## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

I'm starting to believe that maybe what we think is the affair fog is just the WS acting in a completely self-centered way, actually a side of their personality that the BS may never have observed. Basically the attitude "this feels good, it's fun, and I'm going to do it regardless of how it impacts my spouse and children". The majority of the time it just becomes less fun, less pleasurable as it's exposed, or if they move in with the AP and see their flaws. Then they may try to R with the BS out of practical reasons, or even possibly deciding they truly love the BS. Any thoughts?


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## MrDude (Jun 21, 2010)

maincourse99 said:


> maybe what we think is the affair fog is just the WS acting in a completely self-centered way


Isn't having an affair the WS acting in a completely self-centered way? So, it makes sense they would continue on that path.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

I'm not a believer of the whole "fog" notion either. It's a cop-out imo. It essentially minimizes the affair to a chemical imbalance and takes away a lot of blame from the WS. 

It wasn't _really_ them when they cheated, their poor minds just couldn't handle the dopamine..... We're all adults and we all make concious decisions. In the words of a former WS, "there's no fog, just own your sh!t"


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

I always interpretted the fog to be the fantasy. You know the your great, I'm great, destiny, soul mates etc. The fog relates to many relationships besides affairs. Think back to when you first met your SO. Before all the flaws and day to day life.


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

I do not believe the fog is an excuse for the self centered behavior.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

I toss this around all the time...as a BS one of the biggest issues I deal with in R is feeling "less than meaningless" to him questioning weather our life, history, children had any value to him. 

We all know about the theories behind the "fog" the brain chemicals etc....but none of that makes you feel "important" to the WS anymore....

I saw a quote on another forum that has really stuck with me, it was in regards to a WS who declared their undying love to their online AP.....and this posters response was...... "that is one elastic definition of love, one stretched so thin as to become meaningless".........and here is the hard part with that quote because some WS really think the affair is true love and yet the BS can see how "thin" that love is....and yet they pick them over us (at least till fog clears if ever) and so we feel even less significant in the big scheme of things. 

How do we feel important to them when at one time we were considered "throw away" for the AP. 


sorry if I'm rambling but counseling starts in a few hours and I wanted to get this out before I lost that train of thought.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

underwater2010 said:


> I always interpretted the fog to be the fantasy. You know the your great, I'm great, destiny, soul mates etc. The fog relates to many relationships besides affairs. Think back to when you first met your SO. Before all the flaws and day to day life.


Exactly. That's why I agree with Complexity's post. 

Okay so we all know about dopamine and phenethylamine and oxytocin and all the love chemicals. 

So that just proves they were falling in love. 

They chose to date while married and then fell in love. Maybe with another liar and deceiver, but maybe they like looking in that mirror and seeing themselves reflected back. 

The fog is Bulldokey. 

After Dday I asked my husband if he would be okay with us having an open relationship so I can have some new love feelings too. 

He went ballistic. 

So they know dating while married is treading on treacherous turf.


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

It is an addiction once they are in the affair but just like a drug addict, they had to make a choice to start it in the first place. That's where the blame should focus on, taking that first step.

Once the A starts though then you are basically dealing with a drug addict that can't think straight. Trying to rationalize with someone in an A is pointless; their brain is going to do all kinds of mental gymnastics in order to justify the A in their head. I’ve been in that situation before and it makes you very, very stupid. 

The best way to wake them up is for them to hit bottom and suffer the consequences. When the “high” starts to succumb to reality then they start to think more clear. That’s why many suggest kicking them to the curb and having them worry about where they are going to live, how the pay bills, ect. Make life hell for them and the A stops being worth it. It's weird that the madder you get with them, they more likely they'll want to R.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

daggeredheart said:


> ..
> 
> I saw a quote on another forum that has really stuck with me, it was in regards to a WS who declared their undying love to their online AP.....and this posters response was...... "that is one elastic definition of love, one stretched so thin as to become meaningless"........
> 
> ...


I stuggled with feeling less than and used and all manner of other issues. 

The fact is if the affair was meaningless. (my OW tried that bulldokey on me too) Than that is very insulting. 

They risked a good relationship for one that is meaningless. 

As far as being thrown away, the cheater also throws the affair partner away once outed. 

IMO, cheaters are the type that throw people away when they no longer meet their every need. 

A high percentage of cheaters have personality disorders. Most of these are not curable.

One book I read likened an affair to a car crash. The author said, in the aftermath everyone crawls out bloody, or dying or scarred for life.

Adult minds realize that and choose not to bring a third party into a marriage.


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## MrDude (Jun 21, 2010)

I think we use the term "fog" way to generously. 

Like has been said it is an addiction similar to drug usage. They get that high when they are with the POSOM/W and don't want to lose it. IMHO all of the strategies, exposure, 180, whatever, are to "help" them hit that rock bottom.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

MrDude said:


> I think we use the term "fog" way to generously.
> 
> Like has been said it is an addiction similar to drug usage. They get that high when they are with the POSOM/W and don't want to lose it. IMHO all of the strategies, exposure, 180, whatever, are to "help" them hit that rock bottom.


Exactly, everyone is addicted to dopamine. Its like with anything we like, we always have resistance and relapses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Well I guess I'm in the minority especially for a BS. Sometimes it's one and sometimes it's both. I'm not making excuses for it by the way. I think there are a lot of cases where friends become something more because they don't know realize emotional intimacy pulls them in or because they are arrogant and think they are immune to it. Some times they don't even know they are in an EA right off the bat. By the way my wife has never had an affair. My ex wife did and we divorced so I have NO REASON to defend anyone on this.

They realize it and people with character stop it before it goes physical. They got sucked in naively.

Here is where the fog "naive stupidity and then emotional weakness" comes in. They think they are in love but they don't have a clue about who the other person is. They follow feelings instead of logic and reason. Look at some of these cases where female teachers go to prison because they are in love with some kid.

Any smart person with character can never have a PA and can only ever have one EA.


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## MrDude (Jun 21, 2010)

I don't think you are that far off from what I was saying. Feelings take over, which give them that "good" feeling.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Complexity said:


> I'm not a believer of the whole "fog" notion either. It's a cop-out imo. It essentially minimizes the affair to a chemical imbalance and takes away a lot of blame from the WS.


:iagree:

Ever since joining up to this site, I’ve struggled with the notion of “the fog” as well and for this reason. I do not like the idea of providing a cop-out/ removing their responsibility for the affair one bit. Not in the least.



> It wasn't _really_ them when they cheated, their poor minds just couldn't handle the dopamine..... We're all adults and we all make concious decisions. *In the words of a former WS, "there's no fog, just own your sh!t"*


Well said.

A WS might be able to say, “It wasn’t me, it was ‘the fog’ and I wasn’t thinking...” Alternatively, the BS might try to remove some of the blame for the betrayal by the WS by putting it on “the fog”. However, the fact that the WS made a conscious choice to cross boundaries so much that they’d experience the fog and then cheat is damning enough and makes that excuse impossible for me to accept.

Once you realize you're starting to develop inappropriate feelings or temptations to cheat, then you definitely need to wake the f#ck up and cease and desist.

It’s like someone getting drunk and physically abusing their spouse. Sure, the intoxication might have aided in their inability to remain in control, however they chose to drink and put themselves in a situation where they’d lose control in the first place. I have no patience and no empathy for such an excuse.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

I don't know, I remember the initial periods of falling in love, you get pretty stupid in some respects. That's the chemicals at work. I agree the culpability comes in blowing past the stop signs at the beginning. Is it understandable? I think so, I could see how it can happen. Is it justifiable, no, not in the least. But we are human, we have weakness, we can be worn down by circumstances. We can fail, quite spectacularly. Even the best of us can fail. Does that make it ok? No, not really. Does that make it acceptable, no, not really. Sometimes we have to accept the unacceptable, for whatever reason. Maybe to prevent greater harm, maybe to keep from going crazy, whatever. If I can understand what happened to the best of my ability, if I can take the hard lessons available, and I can move forward and live a more positive, more fulfilling life, then I think that's good. If I can accept that my spouse made mistakes, made bad choices, accepted faulty premises, that she hurt me deeply, but that she is not inherently bad, that she isn't fundamently damaged or deficient. Well then I can find it in myself to forgive, and I benefit from that. I let go of the pain, and the blame, and the suffering, I choose to stop being eaten up from within. And I choose to live, to go forward, to be happier. Not stupid mind you, she knows it's a one shot deal, a reoccurence would change all that in an instant. We both have to work to keep from letting our marriage drift off course, to stay engaged, to not become irritable roommates with children and a mortgage. In the context of 1 time, fog makes sense to me, more than that, and you're dealing with an addict at best, maybe a sociopath at worst, and all bets are off.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> I'm starting to believe that maybe what we think is the affair fog is just the WS acting in a completely self-centered way, actually a side of their personality that the BS may never have observed. Basically the attitude "this feels good, it's fun, and I'm going to do it regardless of how it impacts my spouse and children". The majority of the time it just becomes less fun, less pleasurable as it's exposed, or if they move in with the AP and see their flaws. Then they may try to R with the BS out of practical reasons, or even possibly deciding they truly love the BS. Any thoughts?


In my opinion, you are wrong.

I cheated on my wife. (It was an idiotic revenge affair, after my wife's affair.)

It was an EA that was on the point of becoming a PA, when I suddenly woke up to what I was doing.

And the weeks/months of the affair? *It was exactly as if I was in some kind of a mental fog*. 

I was actually moments away from having sex with the OW, when I -this sounds corny- saw a mental image of my wife, and the fog was instantly blown away. And I was disgusted with myself for what I was doing.


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## Torrivien (Aug 26, 2012)

Miss Taken said:


> It’s like someone getting drunk and physically abusing their spouse. Sure, the intoxication might have aided in their inability to remain in control, however they chose to drink and put themselves in a situation where they’d lose control in the first place. I have no patience and no empathy for such an excuse.


I find this comparison extremely accurate. Even if the fog is some sort of state of mind where the wayward didn't have all her/his senses, it's still their sole responsibility for opening the door wide.

It angers me that some people speak about "the fog" as if it were some conscious demon-like entity that creeped on them by surprise and started puppetering them into cheating.
They made all the moves by letting a stranger apply for a spot that should have been their spouse's.
Oh, I can't believe I got this drunk after drinking this many beers. Well, beer does indeed make you drunk, the same way flirting with someone makes you aroused.

I can accept using this term to describe the state of mind (self-centered and selfish atittude) but I can't possibly accept its use to victimize the wayward.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

underwater2010 said:


> ...The fog relates to many relationships besides affairs. Think back to when you first met your SO. Before all the flaws and day to day life.





SadandAngry said:


> I don't know, I remember the initial periods of falling in love, you get pretty stupid in some respects....


I think all of us can relate to these wonderful feelings (this is a marriage forum after all) and it’s the biggest part of what makes falling in love so intoxicating, consuming and wonderful. 

However, the WS WAS NOT ENTITLED to develop those feelings for someone else while still committed or married to their spouse. Those feelings are for the spouse and when they strayed, they robbed their spouse of those affections and misappropriated them to someone else. 

I have no doubts that the WS often does feel like they are _in love_ but if it is _love_ that they feel, the roots of that emotion are grounded in deceit, betrayal, lies to self and others, selfishness and a total disregard for anyone outside of themselves.


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## martyc47 (Oct 20, 2011)

Complexity said:


> I'm not a believer of the whole "fog" notion either. It's a cop-out imo. It essentially minimizes the affair to a chemical imbalance and takes away a lot of blame from the WS.
> 
> It wasn't _really_ them when they cheated, their poor minds just couldn't handle the dopamine..... We're all adults and we all make concious decisions. In the words of a former WS, "there's no fog, just own your sh!t"


Yes, there really are chemicals involved- So I do believe there is a "fog"- a different state of mind at work.

However, I do agree ultimately with personal responsibility. We have chemicals and urges but we also have the ability to make choices. I believe there is a state of "fog" in which many spouses make terrible choices, but they are choices. It;s just a sort of explanation why these people seem to make these choices that are often out of character- not an excuse for their behavior.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Torrivien said:


> It angers me that some people speak about "the fog" as if it were some conscious demon-like entity that creeped on them by surprise and started puppetering them into cheating.


Me too. I can understand the feelings but they chose the actions that led up to them having those feelings in the first place.



> Oh, I can't believe I got this drunk after drinking this many beers.


 LOL, I can picture people saying this.



> *I can accept using this term to describe the state of mind (self-centered and selfish atittude)* but I can't possibly accept its use to victimize the wayward.


:iagree: That's how I've begun using the term myself.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> "this feels good, it's fun, and I'm going to do it regardless of how it impacts my spouse and children".


"I deserve this!"


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## Torrivien (Aug 26, 2012)

Since we, as betrayed spouses, couldn't be more biased against "the fog" and its dissociation from the wayward's free will, I would like to ask people that have been inside the fog.
Did you at some point thought that what you were doing is wrong ? If yes, how did you convince yourself to continue ?

Mattmatt, for example, had the image of his wife before beginning a physical affair, and I can understand how it's not easy to detect an emotional affairs before beginning openly flirting. But those who went completely to the physical affair and then regretted it, came clean/got caught and won their spouses back. I'd like to know what went through your mind at the time and how did you suppress the conscience calling.

This isn't a rethorical question, but I'd like to point out that rationalizing come from selfishness beating the mind's scoldings, so you couldn't be that drowned inside the fog.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

I am in complete agreement on the responsibility. The fog is not a reason to abdicate responsibility, to abdicate blame, to provide justification. It does provide a mechanism for explaining the choices made while in the fog, how those choices could be made. I view it as a part of us that usually serves a useful, probably necessary function, but in the case of an affair, it is dysfunctional. The primary relationship may have broken down to the point that the usual measures that keep the bonding system directed to maintaining that relationship fail, and the individual is vulnerable to it kicking in anew on an inappropriate target. Throw in a willing accomplice, and you've got trouble. Are we slaves to our biology? To some degree, and those degrees vary not only from person to person, but also over time within individuals.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

My WS has said that she knew what she was doing was wrong, but that she didn't care. That she had given up on me, on us. That she didn't think about the consequences, because she wanted to feel good, to feel wanted, to feel appreciated. That maybe the affair was her last chance to feel those things.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

I will say this too. There were periods where she would come back to reality enough to try to break it off. The last time it happened she demanded that I commit to fixing things between us, to sort my **** out (because our problems were mostly my fault of course!  ). I did, and I started paying attention, and caught the affair quite soon after. She demanded my attention, but was still unable to stop, even when she knew she had it. Does that sound rational to anyone here?


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Torrivien said:


> Since we, as betrayed spouses, couldn't be more biased against "the fog" and its dissociation from the wayward's free will, I would like to ask people that have been inside the fog.
> Did you at some point thought that what you were doing is wrong ? If yes, how did you convince yourself to continue ?
> 
> Mattmatt, for example, had the image of his wife before beginning a physical affair, and I can understand how it's not easy to detect an emotional affairs before beginning openly flirting. But those who went completely to the physical affair and then regretted it, came clean/got caught and won their spouses back. I'd like to know what went through your mind at the time and how did you suppress the conscience calling.
> ...


First, the fog is a description of a state of mind where one is infatuated and detrimentally reprioritizing pre-existing relationships. It is not an excuse merely a description of a state of mind. Second, the fog is real. Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it's not real. It is very real. 

The fog is the same as being under the influence of a drug. It impairs judgement but does not remove the ability to reason. The main trait is that things feel good and the source of the goodness is someone. If its the fog then that someone is the OW/OM because you are married or in an exclusive relationship. For me it (and for many) it started out innocent. You like being with them, talking with them and it feels sooo good. Soon the drug aspect compels you to escalate contact to keep the feeling. Thus the slippery slope is traversed. In the beginning nothing is wrong but at some point boundaries are crossed and other rationalized or ignored. 

For me the crossing point was when I started doing things to be with the OW that I wouldn't do for anyone else but my wife. The excessive communication, gift giving, emotional investment and obsession were the signs. My wife noticed and made off hand remarks. She knew but I didn't. I still wasn't fully aware that I was obsessed with the OW. But those comments planted the seed which made me aware. I knew I was in love with the OW but I didn't know I was out of control. 

Fortunately I was still in love with my wife. After much reflection I figured out that I was being unfaithful to my wife even though the OW had no idea of my feelings. I was having an affair but my affair partner didn't know. I finally figured out that I was unfaithfully investing and escalating contact with an OW. 

I decided to stop the escalation and cut back contact to the point that was normal for a friend. During this period I went through withdrawal and it was extremely hard. But in the end I disclosed to my wife (not and never to the OW) and this was what really helped. 

The fog finally lifted. My boundaries are much stronger. Now I really know where I started going astray. Today I think I can recognize it right away. The problem with the fog is that it builds and is very gradual and subtle. However at some pint it does become recognizable to yourself and your spouse. Fortunately I didn't rationalize it away to a full out reciprocated EA or PA. I was lucky.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

SadandAngry said:


> I will say this too. There were periods where she would come back to reality enough to try to break it off. The last time it happened she demanded that I commit to fixing things between us, to sort my **** out (because our problems were mostly my fault of course!  ). I did, and I started paying attention, and caught the affair quite soon after. She demanded my attention, but was still unable to stop, even when she knew she had it. Does that sound rational to anyone here?


That's it that's the fog. It is not rational but a response to a strong desire from an addiction.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

I am not ever going to cut anyone any slack for this fog stuff.


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## Torrivien (Aug 26, 2012)

It isn't rational at all. My only explanation is that she wanted to use you to fulfill some need (financial, emotional, the feeling of being married) and still wanted to go have fixes for her need for validation.
Some people want to have it "all" regardless of how it makes the other person feel.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> I am not ever going to cut anyone any slack for this fog stuff.


Well, maybe except for the betrayed spouse who is totally cold clocked and blind-sided by it. Otherwise, no.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

Ah yes, the “fog.” Some people might find this hard to accept, but the “fog” is really just your WS falling in love with someone. As a BS, you have also been in the “fog” way back during the first several months, or couple of years, that you were with your WS. Morally, yes, it’s different. But emotionally, biologically, it is really just about the same thing.

Think of all those illogical decisions you made back then. Perhaps you chose to play hooky from work or not study for that exam. You most likely decided to spend way too much money. You probably chose to let down your friends or family at some point, but they understood. Horrible as it is, that same emotional state fueled your WS in their decisions to let you down. The difference is that, unless you were a WS, you really had no real obligations of that kind to anyone but your WS to be.

The reason the “fog” seems so much more evil that naïve, early-stage love is because the “fog” completely undoes the journey you and your WS have taken into mature love. You’ve seen each other cry. You’ve seen each other get fatter and greyer. You know what feminine products or shaving gear the other prefers. You listened to each others’ racist uncle at Thanksgiving. You’ve seen the other come home from work and cry, seemingly for no reason. You’ve watched friends get married, have children and divorce. You’ve been there when their grandparent or parent died. You’ve even farted, drooled or vomited in front of each other.

And yet, despite all the uncomfortable and ugly moments, mature love kept you bonded to each other in a deeply meaningful way. But now, here is your WS, totally ****ting all over that journey because they are now “in love” with someone who has never even had the opportunity to forget to take out the trash. While you understood the progression from infatuation to mature love, your WS was probably never really truly with you in that journey. You aren’t just alone now, you were always alone.

I guess that’s what really caused me to give up on my xWF. We sat there in pre-marriage counseling, post-D-day, and she continually insisted that we could get back to that early-stage love. She said she knew it was real and felt it during our first year together, on vacations, on holidays, during nights out and—get this—during hysterical bonding. Even worse—way ****ing worse—AP reminded her of what that kind of “feeling” was like. Too bad he never farted in front of her.

That was it, she was perma-fogged. Too much Oprah, too many Lifetime movies, too many James L. Brooks’s movies, etc. etc. I’m never going to be who I was when we started dating and she will never be that girl again either (especially now). That would be perfectly OK were I not the only one who accepted it.


_Interesting postscript: I’ve continued spending time with the rebound girl, in spite of what many here have suggested (at the same time encouraged by my friends), and I’m getting that foggy feeling first hand now. It’s actually really helping me separate the emotional from the rational. I found myself one night feeling like I wanted to tell her something very romantic. But there was a voice inside me that said, “Dude, now *you’re* in the ‘fog.’ You don’t *really* know her yet and she hasn’t really earned those feelings that you may think you have for her. Slow down, relax and have fun. You are not on a schedule anymore.”_


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Labcoat said:


> Ah yes, the “fog.” Some people might find this hard to accept, but the “fog” is really just your WS falling in love with someone. As a BS, you have also been in the “fog” way back during the first several months, or couple of years, that you were with your WS. Morally, yes, it’s different. But emotionally, biologically, it is really just about the same thing.


Many BS go through a different fog. It's not driven by euphoria but instead by denial and fear. Same result though. emotions fogging our ability to act like we should because they are so overwhelming

I could point to you to two or three recent thread where it's going on now.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

That isn't what he meant, Labcoat is referring to the times when aBS has fallen in love. The post Dday fog is different, not the same process at all.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

SadandAngry said:


> That isn't what he meant, Labcoat is referring to the times when aBS has fallen in love. The post Dday fog is different, not the same process at all.


Exactly. WS fog is analogous to "falling in love," while BS fog is more akin to grieving over a death.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

SadandAngry said:


> In the context of 1 time, fog makes sense to me, more than that, and you're dealing with an addict at best, maybe a sociopath at worst, and all bets are off.


Good point, one time perhaps can be forgiven, more than one time and it is somewhat foolish to forgive. 

More than one affair and you are likely dealing with a sociopath or psychopath. 

The OW, a serial cheater, in my situation did some things I can not discuss here without giving my identity away. 

But event he police, now think, based on her responses that she may be a psychopath.

She was so skilled at manipulating people that she actually manipulated a police officer into feeling sorry for her and believing her Bulldokey until he found out the truth.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> In my opinion, you are wrong.
> 
> I cheated on my wife. (It was an idiotic revenge affair, after my wife's affair.)
> 
> ...


Matt Matt:

For the hundreth time, a revenge affair is a different animal. 

And, you stopped yourself, anyway.

Will you stop flogging yourself for this. 

Every spouse who learns their spouse has been having a secret affair entertains the thought of a revenge affair. 

It's normal. 

It's NOT normal to have an affair just because one is perhaps bored with the long term marriage.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Miss Taken said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Ever since joining up to this site, I’ve struggled with the notion of “the fog” as well and for this reason. I do not like the idea of providing a cop-out/ removing their responsibility for the affair one bit. Not in the least.
> 
> ...


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

SadandAngry said:


> Are we slaves to our biology? To some degree, and those degrees vary not only from person to person, but also over time within individuals.


I don't agree that we are slaves to our biology. 

We are not reptiles that respond only with our reptilian brain. Humans are more evolved. 

Those who succumb to their reptilian urges do have a character flaw, and therin lies the problem. 

Once a betrayed spouse is apprised of this character flaw in their supposedly trusted mate, what is there to prevent them from using the fog and chemicals as an excuse to cheat again?

Nothing.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

meson said:


> First, the fog is a description of a state of mind where one is infatuated and detrimentally reprioritizing pre-existing relationships. It is not an excuse merely a description of a state of mind. Second, the fog is real. Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it's not real. It is very real.


Of course everyone has experienced the love fog, when they dated their spouse. 

And, the faithful spouses here understand that that is exactly why YOU DON'T DATE WHILE MARRIED. 

There's a song called addicted to love. 

Yes, some people can get addicted to that new love rush. 

But again, that is why you don't date while married. 

Companionate love can never compare with that new love scenario. And, an affair is not even similar to a real dating situation. There is never anything but fun and sex going on, no real world to intrude. 

As someone else here mentioned. A strong marriage is about love and commitment. 

Commitment means forsaking all others.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Don't believe you are beholden to your biology? Try not eating or drinking. Try taking psycho active drugs and resisting their effects. Try and get an addict to quit their crutch, be it cocaine, or caffeine, or nicotine, video games, infidelity forums, etc. Yes, people are unbelievably, maddeningly stupid to get addicted, but it happens. They use the crutch to try and fill a void, even to their own detriment. It happens all the time. The addiction can seem to creep up, insidiously, esp when it happens to you. It can be easy to spot, or predict as an observer, but our minds are very good at rationalizing ****, 'I can handle it, this isn't happening to me.'. I do believe this happens to some cheaters, someone starts filling a need they have, that maybe their primary partner has not, and the WS begins to ignore warning signs because the need is strong, and it feels so good to have it met. 
Is this justification? Again no. Does it make it ok? No. Is the person responsible for their choices? Yes. Is the affair inevitable? No, the WS can recognize what's wrong and take steps to stop, but some fail. They don't find the tools or resources they need to stop, they don't realize the danger they are in. Maybe they reach out to people who have no idea what to do, how to help, how to break through 'the fog'. It is sad. It is pathetic. It just is, sometimes, and yes, it ****ing sucks, but still, it is.

The second chance is based on the WS becoming aware of the weakness they exhibited, of both partners becoming aware of appropriate boundaries, and of danger signs in relationships (both the primary one, and others), and taking steps to keep the relationships healthy.

Even if the primary relationship ends, both people are going to have to come to terms with their problems, or they will carry on and manifest in subsequent relationships.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

The fog and the chemicals are not an excuse, they are an explanation. Different animals.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

An explanation makes it understandable in some sense, an excuse would make it ok.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

SadandAngry said:


> Don't believe you are beholden to your biology? Try not eating or drinking. Try taking psycho active drugs and resisting their effects. .


Eating or drinking is a survival mechanism, like breathing linked to the reptilian part of the brain at the base of the neck

That part of the brain is the reason why a headless chicken may still be able to run away for awhile, after losing it's poor head. 

The emotional part of the brain is located in the amgydala, way away from the reptilian brain. 

Some reptile like animals can not expereienc emotions like dogs or humans because they do not have a functional amydala. 

Humans do and they also have frontal lobes. 

Frontal lobes are what keep people from doing bad things. 

Some sex offenders continually reoffend after arrested because they have damaged frontal lobes and thus no control over their emotions and behaviors that are negative and harmful to themselves and others.

So yes, if your brain is damaged you may cheat, all the more reason to leave a cheater. If their brain is damaged they will cheat again. If it's not you may have hope, but some types of brain damage are difficult to detect.

As for taking drugs, that's a choice. It's not biology. It's chemistry and it's a choice to use those chemicals knowing they may make you act inappropriately.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

My wife started pulling away from me emotionally 5 or 6 years ago. She had 2 brief physical affairs (no sex) back then and I knew it was only a matter of time before she left me. She would say things like "I don't know if this is what I want", or "marriage might not be for me". I think us having a child kept her in the marriage. She is an abuse victim and I believe has Histrionic Personality Disorder. She ended up in a mental hospital (is that a p.c term? don't want to offend) for a week after her first affair and within a year had her second one. At that point, instead of going to counseling, which she was against, we started swinging (brilliant idea huh?) which I thought would satisfy her desire for male attention and since we were doing it together, I felt safe. She was completely on board, she built the profile on a swinger site, posting dozens of photos, she really got into it. It was mostly fun, we both enjoyed it but I came to realize that it wasn't what she wanted. She wanted one on one, and really what it came down to is she just didn't want to be married. Didn't want to answer to anyone or limit her behavior, and no longer was having a child enough incentive to hold her back. So, getting to how this relates to the "fog" or whatever you want to call it, when she met a much older man at work, who was unhappy in his marriage, she allowed herself to become infatuated, and the perfect opportunity presented itself. She got an apartment herself, waiting for him to leave his wife. I exposed the affair to his BS, she kicked him out and they got a place together 3 months after my wife left me. My wife has wavered at times, talking about coming back to me and how unsure she is about her feelings for him, but with her I truly think it's mostly a practical situation for her, even though I know she has feelings for her AP. She has very limited earning power and he can provide at least the basics. My wife is emotionaly damaged, the affair served the purpose of providing the attention and excitement she craves, but also the means of getting away from our marriage. She never talks about the relationship with her AP as being long term. I think she knows it will run its course and she'll be on to the next one, basically using people. It comes down to some people just being tired of marriage and the work involved, the limits on what they can do, and having to be responsible. Maybe even tiring of the every day child care. My wife seems fine being a part time mother. I can see now it was just a matter of the right situation presenting itself, and she grabbed her "freedom", but there really is no freedom. Her AP and her are now like a married couple, there will be expectations and mundane things to care for. Meeting her AP got her where she thinks she wants to be, away from marriage and the responsibility. Divorce is in process, I just can't imagine a future with her and I fear for what will happen to her in the future.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> So yes, if your brain is damaged you may cheat, all the more reason to leave a cheater. If their brain is damaged they will cheat again. If it's not you may have hope, but some types of brain damage are difficult to detect.


My wife was subjected to sexual, physical and emotional abuse as a child. She was given up by her birth mother at 2, adopted at 3 from a foreign country, and raised by a schizophrenic mother with borderline personalty disorder. I've always believed that my wife was emotionally damaged by all of that and it may explain a lot. But, as most everyone has said, we can all still choose do do the right thing.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> My wife was subjected to sexual, physical and emotional abuse as a child. She was given up by her birth mother at 2, adopted at 3 from a foreign country, and raised by a schizophrenic mother with borderline personalty disorder. I've always believed that my wife was emotionally damaged by all of that and it may explain a lot. But, as most everyone has said, we can all still choose do do the right thing.


If your wife has a personality disorder such as Histrionic personality disorder, she is broken in a way that is difficult to fix. 

HPD is better than narcissistic personality disorder which at the extreme includes sadistic traits, and is thought to be impossible to cure. 

Her PD may be genetic, given her family medical history, or it may be caused by severe abuse or neglect at a young age. 

So yes, in her case, she may be a victim of her genetic biology. If her frontal lobes are damaged she may not be able to choose anything. 

But that is not the case with all cheaters. If she does have HPD, it is a case of biology for her.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Labcoat said:


> Exactly. WS fog is analogous to "falling in love," while BS fog is more akin to grieving over a death.


Must have sounded like I was not agreeing with that. I was just throwing out the observation that both sides of this are driven by emotion. Very different ones but none the less judgemen is clouded all the way around. Obviously I agree with your description of "WS fog" though.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

SadandAngry said:


> Don't believe you are beholden to your biology? Try not eating or drinking. Try taking psycho active drugs and resisting their effects. Try and get an addict to quit their crutch, be it cocaine, or caffeine, or nicotine, video games, infidelity forums, etc. Yes, people are unbelievably, maddeningly stupid to get addicted, but it happens. They use the crutch to try and fill a void, even to their own detriment. It happens all the time. The addiction can seem to creep up, insidiously, esp when it happens to you. It can be easy to spot, or predict as an observer, but our minds are very good at rationalizing ****, 'I can handle it, this isn't happening to me.'. I do believe this happens to some cheaters, someone starts filling a need they have, that maybe their primary partner has not, and the WS begins to ignore warning signs because the need is strong, and it feels so good to have it met.
> Is this justification? Again no. Does it make it ok? No. Is the person responsible for their choices? Yes. Is the affair inevitable? No, the WS can recognize what's wrong and take steps to stop, but some fail. They don't find the tools or resources they need to stop, they don't realize the danger they are in. Maybe they reach out to people who have no idea what to do, how to help, how to break through 'the fog'. It is sad. It is pathetic. It just is, sometimes, and yes, it ****ing sucks, but still, it is.
> 
> The second chance is based on the WS becoming aware of the weakness they exhibited, of both partners becoming aware of appropriate boundaries, and of danger signs in relationships (both the primary one, and others), and taking steps to keep the relationships healthy.
> ...


I agree with this. I think this is why it's important that people understand the dynamics behind EA. Some of the notions like "Opposite Sex Friends" is politically correct but dangerous due to the dynamics SAA noted. The reason drugs are addictive is they hit pleasure centers in our brains. Many of the same pleasure centers that are activated when you are first in love.

Me and my wife know how to avoid this. We don't put our selves in position for things to occur that we think is risky. Doesn't mean we don't trust each other. It means why be in a state where you even have to fight the temptation. Just avoid it.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

SadandAngry said:


> Don't believe you are beholden to your biology? Try not eating or drinking.
> .......
> 
> 
> ...


Reproduction is also a survival mechanism and our ability to coax the opposite sex and to be coaxed by the opposite sex were favored characteristics for surviving blood line and we are all part of a surviving blood line. 

I know what you are saying Sara but it sounds like you're trying to discount biology. SAA's not saying people don't have a choice. Just that they have to fight strong urges when they get into EA because of biology.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Reproduction is also a survival mechanism and our ability to coax the opposite sex and to be coaxed by the opposite sex were favored characteristics for surviving blood line and we are all part of a surviving blood line.
> 
> I know what you are saying Sara but it sounds like you're trying to discount biology. SAA's not saying people don't have a choice. Just that they have to fight strong urges when they get into EA because of biology.


I haven't discounted biology. I have said in certain circumstances it does take over. And, I agree once in the affair the chemicals produced take over. So we agree, my friend. 

My point is that engaging the opposite sex initially is a choice. 

Procreation is not part of the reptilian brain. 

We no longer need to procreate to survive. 

In fact many people actively do not want children because we have evolved past the need to have children to survive our old age or work the farm.

In fact, many studies show that people with children are very unhappy and often broke if their kids are troublemakers. So that line of reasoning is illogical and possible harmful to human existence. 

What I am saying is the humans have free will and can make choices, before flirting, unlike a crocodile or a shark whose reptilian brain forces their mouth to snap closed at the slightest movement on it's tongue. 

There are many many people, both men and women, who remain faithful. If I have learned anything from this terrible experience, I have learned that.

I am amazed by the sheer volume of women who are cheating on good men. 

Some biologists also claim cheating is a male thing, you know the need to spread their seed. 

And women prefer to nest.

Well, based on the number of 30 year old mothers cheating on their clueless hardworking spouses, that hypothesis is incorrect.

Science is always in flux, hypotheses and even theories often change as new information or measuring tools emerge.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

I certainly believe that there is a medical and scientific basis for the fog, but that it does not absolve them of any responsibility for being in that fog in the first place and their actions while being in the fog.

Just like we hold drug addicts criminally accountable for becoming an addict in the first place, and their criminal actions like stealing, robbing, and even murdering.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> Of course everyone has experienced the love fog, when they dated their spouse.
> 
> And, the faithful spouses here understand that that is exactly why YOU DON'T DATE WHILE MARRIED.
> 
> ...


Just to clarify, there was no dating in my case. The fog can develop independent of dating. Working together is not dating but it can result in an environment for fog. This is why workplace EAs are common. 

There is also the phenomenon of love at first sight. So if you are married then you can also experience "fog at first sight". The triggers for attraction can be minimal and don't require "dating" or the normal courtship procedures to happen. 

This is why boundaries of behavior coupled with transparency and respect for your spouse are needed more than any absolute rule of avoidance.

The fog can transition to a companionate love just like any other love especially in the case of workplace companions. Some people who have affairs and have the fog find out that the AP is really the person they have companionate love for.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> I agree with this. I think this is why it's important that people understand the dynamics behind EA. Some of the notions like "Opposite Sex Friends" is politically correct but dangerous due to the dynamics SAA noted. The reason drugs are addictive is they hit pleasure centers in our brains. Many of the same pleasure centers that are activated when you are first in love.
> 
> Me and my wife know how to avoid this. We don't put our selves in position for things to occur that we think is risky. Doesn't mean we don't trust each other. It means why be in a state where you even have to fight the temptation. Just avoid it.


I certainly agree with the need to understand the dynamics involved. But I disagree with avoidance as the solution. It sounds good but it is ineffective in practice because there really is no way to avoid risky contact with the opposite sex. Any contact is risky. You can certainly avoid one on one time, party situation, confiding support and so on but that is not enough. It is better to learn to detect the signs of fog and stop it from going further in addition to avoiding the aforementioned situations.

In my case there was no alone time, texting or excessive email, flirting or any other of the standard boundary violations. But if there wasn't any respect for my wife's reading of the situation there might have been. Our transparency helped ensure that she was in tune with what was going on which helped me withdraw.

My point is that each spouse needs to know the signs and watch out for the other so that they can be prepared to help them out early on. We should be truly partners with our spouses ready to help them out of trouble when they needed it. And we should respect the help our partners give us when they warn us that their gut has spoken. Relying only upon avoidance may end up with you being blindsided by it happening in a way that was not foreseen as risky.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I loved your last post Sara. There were several topics that I could run with... but lunch break is about over.

I have theory by the way of a contributing factor and I'm gong to create a thread about it some time.

I think historically people learned right and wrong from inner thought, watching other people, and from listening to people they respect like their parents. Today however much of that common sense advice has been replace with political correct garbage learned form the television screen. Historically when we saw other people interacting, it was REAL people. Our brains pick up all this stuff we see on television and fakes us out a little. I know what I'm watching is a citcom for example but my subconscious thinks I know those people and that those scenarios are things to learn from.

I just watched a show where the scenario was as follows.
- Girl stays out with guy friend all night.
- BF get's jealous.
- She explains that they just talked and say I love you.
- BF says I love you too.
- Next scene. Everything is fine.

Okay? Young people see this crap all of the time and learn from it.


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## HealthyMe (Jul 2, 2012)

For the wayward or betrayed - how long did it take for the WS to come out of the fog completely? To feel passion for the BS again?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Are BS in a fog BEFORE they start an affair?

A depressive illness, as it were?

I know I was depressed after what had happened, and if you -rightly or wrongly- associate your spouse with the cause of your depression, then any sign of friendship from another man or woman would be fallen upon like a thirsty man finding a source of cold water in a desert.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

I'm sorry but the fog is not like falling in love with your spouse.
I didnt recognise my H when he was in his A. He was a man, who for 18 years, had put me and his children before everything. He became a stranger to me. All rational thoughts had left him. He could not see he was hurting those people that he loved and cherished. This is nothing like being in love. He only came to his senses when he thought he was losing us for good.

6 months on he is horrified by his actions. He owns his mistakes but says he really doesn't know what he was thinking. He can't believe how close he came to losing us and that the feelings he had for her were never true. Is he saying that to make me feel better? I don't know, but the test of real love is what we are experiencing now, not the fake love of a soul destroying A.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Are BS in a fog BEFORE they start an affair?
> 
> A depressive illness, as it were?
> 
> I know I was depressed after what had happened, and if you -rightly or wrongly- associate your spouse with the cause of your depression, then any sign of friendship from another man or woman would be fallen upon like a thirsty man finding a source of cold water in a desert.


I believe my H was also going through some kind of mental anguish Matt. He displayed all the signs of classic MLC, this is why I never truly gave up on me. I knew deep down he was in a fog and that he still loved me. I'm glad I didn't give up!

By the way I'm not using this as an excuse for his behaviour.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

HealthyMe said:


> For the wayward or betrayed - how long did it take for the WS to come out of the fog completely? To feel passion for the BS again?


For my H it was quick. He snapped out of it in about 3 weeks. However this was a true awakening. We had a false R last summer. H tried to R but the drug was too strong, but then I hadn't given him any ultimatums. I was playing it soft. The thought of losing us for good shoock him out of it in March and things have been going well since.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Does TV contribute thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/55326-tv-big-contributor-affairs.html#post1047551


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

daisygirl 41 said:


> I'm sorry but the fog is not like falling in love with your spouse.
> I didnt recognise my H when he was in his A. He was a man, who for 18 years, had put me and his children before everything. He became a stranger to me. All rational thoughts had left him. He could not see he was hurting those people that he loved and cherished. This is nothing like being in love. He only came to his senses when he thought he was losing us for good.
> 
> 6 months on he is horrified by his actions. He owns his mistakes but says he really doesn't know what he was thinking. He can't believe how close he came to losing us and that the feelings he had for her were never true. Is he saying that to make me feel better? I don't know, but the test of real love is what we are experiencing now, not the fake love of a soul destroying A.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The more I read through this thread (and by the way some extremely wise, insightful observations), the more I want to say that we need to stop using the word love and to elevate the meaning of love to it's truest definition and stop using the popular cultural parlance like "making love" (i.e. sex).

An affair is not love. Our Wayward spouses are not in love.
They are in infatuation. You cannot truely love someone while you are destroying others.


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