# Good sign, or bad sign?



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Or a bit of both?

I would like the women's perspective on this, not the men's (no offense). I already have the male perspective, mine. 

So I've been listening to the advice here, and listening to my wife, and reading her signs, and all that stuff that I apparently didn't do before. Being more confident, less needy, not talking about our sex life with my wife, etc etc etc. The past month has not seen an increase in sex, but it has felt like a load has been removed from my back, so to speak. I've no longer been expecting sex, no longer being upset inside when it doesn't happen, and maintained a happy demeanor throughout. Basically removing any stresses related to sex, for both myself and my wife, I guess.

So the other night, we ended up having sex. It was one of those rare mutual things - it just happened. (usually it doesn't "just happen" with us...) It was effortless, intimate, and it seemed to satisfy my wife (and I). She had 2 orgasms, one manually by me, and one PIV, with me orgasming at the same time (which is good, right ladies? lol)

So, I had someplace I had to be soon after. I certainly didn't rush out of there, but I didn't hang around too long, either. My wife is not an after-sex cuddler, anyway. Within 10 minutes, I was out the door and in my car.

About 6 or 7 minutes of driving, and I realized I forgot something at home, so I headed back. Being a bit after 10 at night, the kids were in bed, and so was my wife, so I basically sneaked into my own house, so as not to disturb or scare anybody. Headed to the basement to grab the forgotten item, and, through the ventilation system down there, which is almost directly connected to the bedroom upstairs, I could... hear my wife... if you know what I mean.

Now this is ~15 minutes after I left the house, and 20-25 minutes after we just finished having sex - which I thought was good. I grabbed my stuff, and sneaked out, even more quietly this time (!!).

So, first reaction was actually positive, believe it or not. My wife, afaik, does not masturbate frequently, if at all. I admit I was slightly turned on by it (and no, I did not linger, listening to her. Even though it's my house, and we're married, it's still private... And she had no idea I was even in the house at that time).

However, obviously I was also slightly hurt by it, seeing as how we had just had sex some 20-25 minutes ago.

So for a couple of days, I went back and forth with it. Insulted that I apparently did not fully satisfy her. Confident that I had turned her on so much she wanted more. Back and forth like that.

The positive side of me said that we orgasmed together, which is something she very much enjoys. It said that I DID satisfy her, and she stayed horny and wanted more. It said that had I still been in the house, and not had to go somewhere, it would have been ME she came to for more. Hell, I've had those times in my life (less frequent with age), that I wanted more, too, even if the first go-round was enough. Those times were a reflection on my partner being GOOD, not bad.

But of course, the male ego side of me said that I didn't satisfy her, and she was looking to end the night positively. Sigh.

So, what say you, ladies? Good, bad, neutral? Your own similar experience with this?

*ETA - I am resisting bringing this up with her. I know it could cause trouble, and would only show a weakened confidence. However, I also want to know if it was a case of her not being satisfied. My wife is not a communicator. I have told her over the years to be open and honest with me in regards to our sex life. I don't mean turn ons and turn offs pre- and post-sex, I mean physically, in bed. It took her almost 6 years to tell me that my oral skills, while excellent, were sloppy, for example. It took her 5 years or so to tell me that she, although capable, did not want 5, 6, 7 orgasms, because it simply tired her out and it was too much. In other words, it is clear that she does not want to upset me in any way by being critical of anything I do in the bedroom. No matter how many times I've told her I won't be insulted or hurt, that this is about her pleasure just as much as mine, she never speaks up. According to her, it's never been this good with anybody else, but it's clearly not... perfect, either.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

> The positive side of me said that we orgasmed together, which is something she very much enjoys. It said that I DID satisfy her, and she stayed horny and wanted more. It said that had I still been in the house, and not had to go somewhere, it would have been ME she came to for more. Hell, I've had those times in my life (less frequent with age), that I wanted more, too, even if the first go-round was enough. Those times were a reflection on my partner being GOOD, not bad.


I vote for this thought process. You know your wife and you know her sexual habits and you know how she likes to orgasm and how many she likes.

I think since men generally are one and done, their natural reaction might be to think she wasn't fully satisfied. 

I am like your wife above. Sometimes great sex makes me want MORE great sex in a very short period of time.

You might be right not to bring this up with her, you might not be right. Total sexual honesty is with each other is an important tool for understanding each other.

To be honest, sometimes but not all the time when I want more after great sex, I WANT a DIY. I think it has to do with getting the complete range of orgasms.


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## albertamom3 (Oct 15, 2014)

It sounds like she had really great sex with you which lead her to wanting more. I would look at this as a good sign. 

I have been a little reserved about expressing my needs to my husband, I can tell you that sometimes after really great sex I am left wanting more. I wouldn't at all say I was unsatisfied, just greedy....lol

I really doubt she felt like you didn't satisfy her enough. 

I don't think you should bring it up, it might embarrass her.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

albertamom3 said:


> It sounds like she had really great sex with you which lead her to wanting more. I would look at this as a good sign.
> 
> I have been a little reserved about expressing my needs to my husband, I can tell you that sometimes after really great sex I am left wanting more. I wouldn't at all say I was unsatisfied, just greedy....lol
> 
> ...


There you have it Alex. An admitted slvt (me) who said it's a good sign, and an admitted LD struggling to find her libido (Alberta) who agree! 

Alberta, can I suggest you reflect a bit on your last line? Why should that embarrass her? Yes, it would, but why SHOULD it be embarrassing? Should it?


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## albertamom3 (Oct 15, 2014)

This exact scenario just happened with me and my H the only difference was that my H was home. It took a lot for me to tell him I wanted more, I was embarrassed because I had two O and I still wanted more? I was being greedy, and I think he was ready for sleep....lol


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

albertamom3 said:


> This exact scenario just happened with me and my H the only difference was that my H was home. It took a lot for me to tell him I wanted more, I was embarrassed because I had two O and I still wanted more? I was being greedy, and I think he was ready for sleep....lol


Second rule:

Never be ashamed of being sexually greedy. We were gifted with the ability to have multiple O's just like we were gifted with a soft feminine body. Enjoy and embrace that gift...often!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Anon Pink said:


> Second rule:
> 
> Never be ashamed of being sexually greedy. We were gifted with the ability to have multiple O's just like we were gifted with a soft feminine body. Enjoy and embrace that gift...often!


Man, if my wife wanted more, I'd be over the moon.

There have been (many) times where I've overdone it with her, and she's had to get me to stop. As she's very easy to get off, I never had any problem doing so 4, 5 + times per session, and she'd usually have to TELL me she's done. No mas! No mas!

So this is foreign territory for me, I guess. Like I said, my first inclination was positive (which, admittedly, is a big step for me, being a man and all...)

I know it's only two voices so far, but I appreciate it! It may be what I WANTED to hear, but it's genuine nonetheless 

The only negative I can think of, and it's a reach anyway, is that my wife would likely be like you, Alberta, and not normally speak up if she wanted more. I can't recall a time that she ever has. The other night was a bit of an anomaly, as I was leaving the house within minutes of finishing, which gave her the opportunity to get her "more", without having to ask. Otherwise, I can imagine under normal circumstances, she'd have said nothing and turned her thoughts to other things.

Regardless, it IS very encouraging to know that her vibrator is seeing some use when I'm not around!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

alexm said:


> Man, if my wife wanted more, I'd be over the moon.
> 
> There have been (many) times where I've overdone it with her, and she's had to get me to stop. As she's very easy to get off, I never had any problem doing so 4, 5 + times per session, and she'd usually have to TELL me she's done. No mas! No mas!
> 
> ...


Okay then you should probably say something.

"Honey, the other night I came back and heard you and your vibrator. Next time you neglect to tell me you want more, and deny me the opportunity to give you more -cause nothing would make me happier- I'm gonna spank your ass red!" 

Then give a testing swat just to drive home the point!


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

Just to pointing out that some people go "Ahhh, ahhhh, fuuhhhkk" (etc) when they stub a toe on a bed leg.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Anon Pink said:


> Okay then you should probably say something.
> 
> "Honey, the other night I came back and heard you and your vibrator. Next time you neglect to tell me you want more, and deny me the opportunity to give you more -cause nothing would make me happier- I'm gonna spank your ass red!"
> 
> Then give a testing swat just to drive home the point!


I've been debating it, but I think I'm going to let it go. I know it'll embarrass her, and it's also kind of weird that I essentially sneaked into my own house so as not to disturb anyone, and overheard potentially embarrassing things going on... 

Besides, I don't want to spook her. I've learned over the years that she does not like to discuss sex, so some things are best left alone these days  Let sleeping dogs lie, as they say.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Can't you hear my raspberry through the computer screen?

Can you see my dramatic eye roll?

How about my deep exasperated breath?

No?

Okay then.Coward!!!

I'm telling you straight here! This is solid gold....You're standing in the bedroom doorway fully dressed as she slowly wakes up. You're leaning against the door frame just looking at her. You've got a sly steady grin on your face and you're holding something in your hand but she can't see it through your hands nor through her sleepy eyes. You say nothing, just a steady gaze and a steady grin.

Finally she notices you're not saying anything, just looking at her. And she says... "WHAT?" All snippy like she usually is in the morning.

You slowly walk over to her, sit on the bed, lean in and kiss her lightly, tenderly, then whisper in her ear, "I heard you and your toy the other day, not 10 minutes after we had great sex. It was hot! If I hadn't been late already I would have come in taken care of you again. Next time you better let me know you want more."

Then you kiss her again and chuckle (cause mean don't laugh they chuckle)  and then you walk out...

That is sexy confidence! You're bringing up something that embarrasses her but in a sexy way, a lightly teasing way. A way that shows her you know all about her.

Alex, dammit! Do it!


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## DayOne (Sep 19, 2014)

OP. Leave it alone. Your Wife is obviously a sexual woman, enjoy it. 

But... If you want to capitalize on this discovery:

a) Take AP's advice above, which could lead into
b) Future sessions where you ask her to show you how she likes to get herself off. While you watch. Which could lead to
c) Instructing her on how to get herself off. When to touch, where to touch herself, and to stop, just before she finishes... until you tell her she can come. Or until you tell her to get on all fours and you pound her silly.

d) Or create a scenario where she is 'alone', getting herself off, and you 'discover' her and join in to finish her off. 

The possibilities are endless, and not at all negative. Have fun!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

DayOne said:


> OP. Leave it alone. Your Wife is obviously a sexual woman, enjoy it.
> 
> But... If you want to capitalize on this discovery:
> 
> ...


FWIW, the vibrator(s) are used often when I'm present, so it's not her "dirty little secret" or anything. In fact, it's primarily used with the two of us. Every once in a while neither of us are particularly energetic or up for anything more than a mutual masturbation session. Seriously, those things are so rarely used on her own. Between 2 kids and both of us being home at the same time usually, she's almost never alone in the house, let alone the only one awake (we have very different work schedules). 

The other night was rare, in that the kids were sleeping, I was out, and she was awake. 99% of the time that I have somewhere to be later in the evening (adult recreational sports are rarely scheduled at good times... sigh), she's already fast asleep long before I leave the house. The stars seemed to have aligned!

FYI, her toys are kept in a common drawer, one that I also use. Like most men with wives who own toys, we subconsciously notice if they've moved... lol! And they generally don't.

The positive thing about this is that I now believe that if she had the time and the opportunity, they'd be used far more often than they currently are, by herself. And I'd be absolutely fine with that. I truly believe that, the way things are, she just doesn't have the chance to unwind like that, pretty much ever. I've gone so far as telling her to not feel shy about using them if I'm still in the house and that she's entitled to her privacy. I out and out told her that I don't expect that every single time she's got the urge that I have to be involved. Sometimes we all, men and women, just want 2 minutes to relax and not have to deal with all the pre- and post hoopla. I can count on one hand how many times she's done that over the past 5-6 years. I walked in on her once, and she was embarrassed, even though I told her she shouldn't be. And I heard her in the shower once, as well, but didn't let her know I did. The other times I had gone into the drawer the next morning and figured it out.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Anon Pink said:


> Can't you hear my raspberry through the computer screen?
> 
> Can you see my dramatic eye roll?
> 
> ...


lol! Love it!

Thing is, I am not confident she would react in the way you're hoping (or that you would react).

I'm telling ya, she's got some barriers up around her sexuality, and it's not likely they'll ever be addressed or even acknowledged by her. It's a case of complete and utter separation. In bed with me, she's a beast, and she lets go. Outside of bed, she can barely watch something on TV without her facial expression changing, let alone talk about sex. If she and I aren't actually HAVING sex, everything to do with the subject is uncomfortable to her, whether it's us talking about it, other people around us, TV shows, movies, whatever.

She says she's always been like this, that this isn't new, and I do believe her. But... things don't always add up. I've tried to talk to her about her attitudes towards the subject, but I get nowhere. "I don't know why" is the common refrain.

Yes, I've gently asked her about past sexual abuse or assault, or anything that could have messed up her attitudes about the subject, but she denies anything like that ever happening. I have to believe her, I have no choice.

My suspicions are far more ordinary, fwiw. Her parents split up when she was 2 or 3, and she mostly lived with her mother. Her mother has been married and divorced 3 times now, and in between each man has been several different men. So basically, she grew up in a household that did not have a stable man/woman presence for any longer than a few years at a time, yet there was almost always a man around - just different ones, if you catch my drift. So I don't think she grew up knowing what stability meant, which can really mess with your perception of attitudes around things, especially sexuality. In other words, there are relationships, and there is sex. Two entirely different things. To her, one has little to do with the other, and it's clear that she separates the two, even with us.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

alexm said:


> lol! Love it!
> 
> Thing is, I am not confident she would react in the way you're hoping (or that you would react).
> 
> ...




Ahhhhh, that explains a lot! Now all of your other threads make more sense to me. Your wife has serious trust issues. Has MEM seen the bolded part before?

As a recovering fortress builder myself  the good thing with your wife is that "in the moment" sexual expressions are pure and unfiltered. 

My husband treated me and my issues with kid gloves, respecting my boundaries, giving me space, never pushing the issues...cause I could morph into quite the beast when I felt my back against the wall. While at first it was good and made me feel safe, after a few years I think it became more enabling than respecting. It's a fine line you walk Alex. But I am a firm believer in complete openness and honesty and I think you should try to stretch her comfort zone as delicately as you can.

And speaking of space, you say she is rarely ever in the house alone? That would drive me NUTS!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
Almost for certain she has some ugly memories. Not saying she was abused in the traditional sense. I'm saying that there is a reason that the topic makes her tension level spike. 

And - she might not even think of that reason(s) anymore. But she does have the negative association. 

It could be as simple as having walked in on her mom with a BF a few times and getting yelled at. 

-------------
And this is something that is hard to get to for two reasons:
- the actual memories are bad
- she has a very masculine (closed off) way of dealing with emotions 

--------------

If it was me, I would try to get in M2's head. To help her. 





alexm said:


> lol! Love it!
> 
> Thing is, I am not confident she would react in the way you're hoping (or that you would react).
> 
> ...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> Alex,
> Almost for certain she has some ugly memories. Not saying she was abused in the traditional sense. I'm saying that there is a reason that the topic makes her tension level spike.
> 
> And - she might not even think of that reason(s) anymore. But she does have the negative association.
> ...


Oh yeah, for sure there's something going on in there, no doubt about it. It could be very innocuous, it may be awful, it could be some sort of repressed memory. It could be legitimate or made-up or blown out of proportion. Who knows.

Honestly, I don't think I'll ever know. She's just not that type of person, unfortunately.

Listen, she's the type of person who just doesn't share things with others, even me. Maybe a close friend of hers knows about something, but that's probably it. She just. doesn't. talk.

There are other little things here and there, fwiw. She HATES me touching her breasts outside of the bedroom. Touching her butt is more tolerable, but she doesn't like that, either. I asked her once why such a bad reaction, and she had no answer. And I'm talking about, if I touch her breast, she'll want to punch me in the face, kind of reaction. Not a "hey" and a hand slap.

One thing I learned just a few months ago (and I mentioned this in an earlier thread) is that she absolutely despises with a passion giving oral sex. This is after 5 years of her giving me oral sex, and very well, I might add. Even to the point that I could swear she enjoyed doing it. (never on its own, though, always as fore or after play). I have no idea how this subject even got brought up, but her exact words were "I HATE doing it, and I want to rip it off every time I do it." Ouch. Apparently she has always felt this way and it has nothing to do with me, personally. Again, no answer as to why she feels this passionately about it. And no real reason as to why she continued doing it for so long, either, other than she felt it was just something she should be doing. Guess that ended. 

So yeah, there's something not right going on in there, but I doubt I'll ever know. And does it really matter, anyway? The level of aversion to these things seem like they'd be impossible to get past, regardless.

My best guess is that she either felt used at some point in her life, or perhaps for a period of her life, and is subconsciously combatting that feeling now. I know she was... easy? back in the day, but I don't get the impression she was ever truly slvtty (not that there's anything wrong with that). A lot of how she is contradicts other areas in her life, especially when it comes to me. The first little while we were dating, she had boundary issues with men at her workplace - a lot of flirting and innuendo. Her being one of very few women at her job (and also attractive) meant she got a lot of attention, and attention that she, I discovered, did not seem to mind. To the point where some of these guys were openly proposition her, knowing full well she was not single. So she was definitely giving off the wrong vibe, imo. But for me to talk to her in a flirty or sexual way? Forget it. As I've said several times here at TAM, in the sack, she's a beast, and there's nothing she hasn't done or won't do, and we've tried just about everything under the sun. There's no "vanilla" sex going on here, At least, there wasn't. Outside of the bedroom, there's no sexuality allowed. No sexual touching, flirty behavior, innuendo, talk, discussion, suggestions, nothing. Unless we are actually having sex, it doesn't exist to her. And then it seems as though it ALL comes out during sex. Then back into the solitary confinement cell again, for a week or two.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

M2 dislikes me initiating overtly sexual behavior outside the bedroom. Always has. On occasion she is overtly sexual with me outside the bedroom, but it's fairly rare. 

She told me in our first year she hated being groped - any explicitly sexual touch outside the bedroom. Hated it with a passion. So I completely stopped. 

She loves affection though - like candy. Full body hugs etc...

And is good with sensual touch - back of neck, lower back. 

I also believe that your style might be partly why she is resistant to opening up. You want openness you need to be calm and soothing. And she needs to believe that no matter what you say she is gong to stay that way....


QUOTE=alexm;10861338]Oh yeah, for sure there's something going on in there, no doubt about it. It could be very innocuous, it may be awful, it could be some sort of repressed memory. It could be legitimate or made-up or blown out of proportion. Who knows.

Honestly, I don't think I'll ever know. She's just not that type of person, unfortunately.

Listen, she's the type of person who just doesn't share things with others, even me. Maybe a close friend of hers knows about something, but that's probably it. She just. doesn't. talk.

There are other little things here and there, fwiw. She HATES me touching her breasts outside of the bedroom. Touching her butt is more tolerable, but she doesn't like that, either. I asked her once why such a bad reaction, and she had no answer. And I'm talking about, if I touch her breast, she'll want to punch me in the face, kind of reaction. Not a "hey" and a hand slap.

One thing I learned just a few months ago (and I mentioned this in an earlier thread) is that she absolutely despises with a passion giving oral sex. This is after 5 years of her giving me oral sex, and very well, I might add. Even to the point that I could swear she enjoyed doing it. (never on its own, though, always as fore or after play). I have no idea how this subject even got brought up, but her exact words were "I HATE doing it, and I want to rip it off every time I do it." Ouch. Apparently she has always felt this way and it has nothing to do with me, personally. Again, no answer as to why she feels this passionately about it. And no real reason as to why she continued doing it for so long, either, other than she felt it was just something she should be doing. Guess that ended. 

So yeah, there's something not right going on in there, but I doubt I'll ever know. And does it really matter, anyway? The level of aversion to these things seem like they'd be impossible to get past, regardless.

My best guess is that she either felt used at some point in her life, or perhaps for a period of her life, and is subconsciously combatting that feeling now. I know she was... easy? back in the day, but I don't get the impression she was ever truly slvtty (not that there's anything wrong with that). A lot of how she is contradicts other areas in her life, especially when it comes to me. The first little while we were dating, she had boundary issues with men at her workplace - a lot of flirting and innuendo. Her being one of very few women at her job (and also attractive) meant she got a lot of attention, and attention that she, I discovered, did not seem to mind. To the point where some of these guys were openly proposition her, knowing full well she was not single. So she was definitely giving off the wrong vibe, imo. But for me to talk to her in a flirty or sexual way? Forget it. As I've said several times here at TAM, in the sack, she's a beast, and there's nothing she hasn't done or won't do, and we've tried just about everything under the sun. There's no "vanilla" sex going on here, At least, there wasn't. Outside of the bedroom, there's no sexuality allowed. No sexual touching, flirty behavior, innuendo, talk, discussion, suggestions, nothing. Unless we are actually having sex, it doesn't exist to her. And then it seems as though it ALL comes out during sex. Then back into the solitary confinement cell again, for a week or two.[/QUOTE]


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Alex, I wasn't thinking along the lines of CSA at all. Just the general atmosphere of supposedly significant men entering and leaving her life like a revolving door would make her feel all men are not to be trusted because for whatever reason, it's not going to last. So she doesn't fully invest herself.

For this reason she is likely to lose respect for you at the drop of a hat. As long as she feels you need her more than she needs you (emotionally) she feels life is under control and she will survive unscathed...so to speak. Unfortunately, this means she won't get down to true emotional intimacy with you and keeps you at a safe distance. She allows you to step in then pushes you out, and back and forth.

It's very lonely in there.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Anon Pink said:


> Alex, I wasn't thinking along the lines of CSA at all. Just the general atmosphere of supposedly significant men entering and leaving her life like a revolving door would make her feel all men are not to be trusted because for whatever reason, it's not going to last. So she doesn't fully invest herself.
> 
> For this reason she is likely to lose respect for you at the drop of a hat. As long as she feels you need her more than she needs you (emotionally) she feels life is under control and she will survive unscathed...so to speak. Unfortunately, this means she won't get down to true emotional intimacy with you and keeps you at a safe distance. She allows you to step in then pushes you out, and back and forth.
> 
> It's very lonely in there.


Ouch. I think you nailed it.

Stupid question, but if the above is true (and it fits almost perfectly) - what happens? What do I do?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

This isn't really about sex. It's about trust and intimacy. Don't confuse the sex with trust and intimacy.

I had this absurdly LONG post; decided it was worthless and deleted it.

Bottom line, not everyone can do intimacy and your wife might be one of them. I guess the easiest thing for you would be to understand that about her first and foremost. But secondly, don't confuse the fact that you're getting laid on the regular with an intimate relationship. I think you've already sensed that because you don't know how to interpret her behavior. And you don't know how because she doesn't confide so you can't learn.

Read MEM's posts, especially the one from today, in Boston's thread: LD women please chime in


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Anon Pink said:


> This isn't really about sex. It's about trust and intimacy. Don't confuse the sex with trust and intimacy.
> 
> I had this absurdly LONG post; decided it was worthless and deleted it.
> 
> ...


No, I mean what do I do (or what happens going forward) in regards to the 'always having me need her more than she needs me' and the taking me in only to push me out stuff?

Never mind the sex, I don't think that will ever get any better. I mean relationship-wise. Because the way you put it - which seems highly probably and accurate - sucks.

My wife DOES care about and love me, and she (as of now...) wants this marriage to work. But the longer it goes on, the more I realize she's only interested in it working on her terms, with what makes her comfortable.

At this point in our relationship, she KNOWS what is required. She fully admits she has dropped the ball in some areas, and she insists she is trying. But I just don't see big enough results.

A good example (of many): it took her years to accept the fact that I, and pretty much every man in existence, needs their wife to act like they want them, or need them. My wife needs no one. That's her personality. Well, she needs people, but she sure as hell doesn't act like she does, lest she appear weak, I guess. So, in terms of sex, I told her flat out a long time ago that I am sick and tired of me being the only one to ever initiate it. She doesn't disagree. But she had no idea how to do this (???). So I TOLD her. Kiss me passionately, touch me, undo my pants or take off my shirt. Make it happen.

I asked her a long time ago how she handled this in the past (without getting too graphic, of course!) She swore that she never initiated sex with anyone, relationship or casual. It was ALWAYS the man. She's had ~25-30 partners over the years. Yet she knows absolutely nothing about seduction? How to treat a man? How to get a man in bed? What men want????

Her idea of initiation: "Let's go have sex". No matter how many times I tell her that that is NOT sexy nor does it have the desired effect (ie. make me feel wanted), she insists that it counts as initiation. I guess I can't argue. But she simply can not bring herself to do any of the aforementioned things.

Another non-sexual example - a man wants to feel like a hero, as they say. I am no different. When I do things for her or the kids or all of us, I certainly don't expect a parade or a medal, but I do expect (and require) a bit of appreciation and even admiration. Not that I tend to compare our relationship to others all the time, but it can't be helped. We have many couple friends. Say one of the husbands comes home with flowers for his wife, the wife will make a facebook post saying how awesome her husband is (or thoughtful, or nice, whatever). Essentially showing him off as well as publicly (and probably privately) showing her appreciation at his thoughtfulness. If I buy my wife flowers, jewelry, something else, or even do something thoughtful and 'husbandly', I get a thank you from her, maybe an "awww, that's so nice!", and that's it. She doesn't show me off, never mind "thank" me for it later, or do anything in return for me. Doing things like that for your husband or wife is not supposed to be tit-for-tat, but at the same time, of course it is.

2 nights ago, I said I was going to make something for dinner that I hadn't made in a while. I planned it, shopped for it, started it before everybody got home. 2 seconds after she gets home from work, she's in the kitchen, messing around with my cooking. I tell her to go sit down, relax, whatever, I've got this. No dice.

She doesn't get it. I wanted to feel like I was doing something for her, so I could feel important. I usually make dinner, but given our schedules, it's not always something terribly fancy. That night it was, it was planned, she knew about it ahead of time and was looking forward to it. It was MY thing. For HER. But she had to get involved, and not let me do things on my own, for her. It's always like this. Always. She just can't accept other people doing things for her. Ostensibly because she'll feel like she owes me, I guess.

Things are ALWAYS done by her, or by both of us. She just can't allow me to do something on my own. I'm positive she's so afraid of having to owe me in some way.

It drives me absolutely nuts.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Alex...to me it seems like you know her very well, yet you are still hoping she might change. You also say things like "she absolutely will NOT discuss anything related to sex". 

Do you just back away from those discussions, or what? Because like I keep telling CW, the only way to make any change will be to assert yourself completely. Part of this is pushing through a discussion that the other spouse doesn't want to have. But it is YOUR sex life you are trying to discuss with her...therefore, why would you let her shut down that topic?

I think you have two choices: accept her as she is, or tell her that going to MC together with you is a must. In MC you can work on prying open those tight shut down topics with her...and hopefully the C could explain to her that it is abnormal to refuse to even discuss things that affect both the husband and wife.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> Alex...to me it seems like you know her very well, yet you are still hoping she might change. You also say things like "she absolutely will NOT discuss anything related to sex".
> 
> Do you just back away from those discussions, or what? Because like I keep telling CW, the only way to make any change will be to assert yourself completely. Part of this is pushing through a discussion that the other spouse doesn't want to have. But it is YOUR sex life you are trying to discuss with her...therefore, why would you let her shut down that topic?


Oh no, I assert myself, trust me. When I have something to say, I say it. I can't say that I corner her, but I make sure that she hears what I have to say (in a nice, respectful way, of course).

As far as change goes, she has, but there's a finite point to it. She will never be as open and willing to talk as I am, which is unfortunate. But she has already come a long way, imo. She will never come to me, or initiate a conversation about our relationship. Never.

I knew this early on, so this isn't unexpected. She has told me, for example, that she has never been broken up with before, in her life. She has done all the breaking up. She has told me why she broke up with her long term exes, and a few of the shorter ones. What I got out of that, was that she basically lived with whatever issues there were until she couldn't take it any longer and ended the relationship(s). So I had the red flags going into this, which is also probably why I'm more willing to communicate with her than I ever have with anyone else before. As in, I want to make sure we (she) never gets to the point of no return.

The thing is, and I feel this is important - I am not afraid of losing her. I certainly don't want to, and will do anything I can to avoid reaching that point, but it is not out of fear. I realized a few years ago that as long as I do everything *I* can to have a happy relationship, everything else is out of my control, more or less.

The irony is that if I went to her level (ie. just live our life, communicate very little about our relationship, etc.) she would likely be happier, at least in the short term. Obviously the problem is that, without communication (especially her telling me if things are not good), we'd likely end up the same as her prior relationships.

As it is now, the only way I can ever get anything out of her in regards to how she feels about us is to constantly temperature check. I've gone long stretches of time without doing this, and things generally seem fine during those periods, then BANG, she has it out with me over this or that - but only if I initiate those convos. In other words, it certainly appears as though she will not come to me, complain, or otherwise bring things up until I do, no matter how long it is in between chats.

Rock, meet hard place


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

You didn't address MC. So are you willing to just accept her as she is?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> You didn't address MC. So are you willing to just accept her as she is?


It's not much of an option, currently. It costs money that we just don't have at the moment. As in, the $3-400 per month we could easily spend on it simply isn't available. Yes, it would be money well spent, I'm sure, but we gots to eat...

So... I guess so?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I'm sure this may not make sense, but I think if you let go of the idea that she will change or that she will come to understand you and your needs, you would be happier.


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