# End it... or worth saving?



## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

My wife made me leave 2 months ago. Had I cheated on her? No. Hit her? Never. Drinking or drug problem? I never touch the stuff. So what did I do to deserve this? You tell me.

Please bear with me, as this may be kind of long...

We've been married 3 1/2 years. 2nd marriage for us both, both in our mid-40's. And she's a great step-mom to my 2 kids.

For the first 2 years of our marriage, she made more money than me. She made it clear she disliked being the primary breadwinner. (She paid 3/4 of the bills while I paid 1/4) I had a downturn in my business (I'm self-employed, as is she) and as a result I got depressed. I admit that I let the depression get to me and I didn't put as much effort into building my business as I should have. I was used to getting clients through word-of-mouth and when that didn't happen, I felt lost. 

She felt we could fire the maid and I could do those jobs since I wasn't working as much. And she felt that I could help her with her business, which was booming. And I did do some of the maid's job, and I did help her a little with her business, but mostly I poured myself into my hobby of bicycle racing and worked out at the gym.

She, of course, resented that and rightly so. But since then, my business has taken off and now I make more money than she does. My depression is gone because I once again feel in control of my life. I have been paying her back for the extra money she spent for our bills when I was only paying 1/4 of our expenses. And I have apologized multiple times for my behavior. But she says that my refusal to help her with her business when she was so busy was a betrayal just like I had cheated on her with another woman and she feels she can't trust me to be a real partner. I try to explain to her that I was depressed then, and it made me feel even more depressed to have to be her assistant and housemaid. I know now that that thinking was wrong, and that I should have been a better partner. But she cannot find it in her heart to forgive me. Remember, this took place TWO YEARS AGO! 

All this, of course, has rendered our once-robust sex life into nothing. So she accuses me of withholding affection. The truth is my "drive" was down when I was depressed, and now it's down because she's so mad at me. The fact that I'm 51 may also have something to do with it.

It was early June when she told me she wanted me to move out. It was early August when I finally did. For those two months in between, I was refusing to move out and saying that we should go to counseling and she was saying she would go to counseling only after I moved out. I've been out now for 7 weeks and she still refuses to go to counseling. Says she likes the way things are now. Well, we're doing nothing now. The only contact we have is when we meet to exchange the dog, who we share. I've asked her to go out to dinner with me, or go biking with me and she refuses. All indications are that she wants to end the marriage, but when I ask her that, she won't give me a definitive answer. 

Meanwhile, I've had time to think about things and now I'm not so certain I want her back. Here's why:

This is a woman who, when we went shopping for her engagement ring, fell in love with a spectacular ring out of my price range. She ended up calling the jeweler without telling me and negotiating a lower price for the ring. It was at the high end of what I could afford, but with careful budgeting I paid it off in six months. Since she wanted it so badly, but it was so expensive, I asked if she would pay for a portion of the ring but she said it was my job, as the man, to pay for it.

The is a woman who loves to receive jewelry for her birthday, Christmas, etc. I've bought her a lot of nice pieces, but I get tired of always having to spring for bling. For Valentine's Day '06, I went to Build-A-Bear and bought her a cute stuffed bear personalized for her. She hated it and let me know it.

A few months into our marriage, she informed me that I could never ask for certain sex acts, but that she would perform them when she felt like it. She couldn't do girl on top for more than 5-10 minutes because it made her legs tired. And I was responsible for her pleasure, manually, no matter how long it took (and it's often 45 or more minutes)

This is a woman who very rarely does something thoughtful or spontaneous for me. When I point out specific examples of wives doing such things for their husbands, she says, "Look at her. She has to do those things to keep him." I should point out that my wife is exceptionally attractive and knows it.

When we met, she asked me to train her at the gym. Twice a week, for an hour at a time, from the time we met in '02 until a few months ago, I was her personal trainer. She also expected me to pay for her gym membership each year.

She told me that she finds bald men unattractive and that if I lost much of my hair she wanted me to get hair plugs. Yet, when she contemplated getting breast implants, I told her to do what made her happy, but I really didn't want her to have unnecessary surgery.

She tries to micro-manage me. She says I drive too slow. I take the long route to wherever we're going. I spend too long in the bathroom. I take too long getting dressed. I'm slow when it comes to completing word games in the newspaper. 

She insists that vacations are essentials, not luxuries. We've taken a number of expensive trips at her insistence, even when I wasn't making enough money to cover them. She paid for them at the time, but I have paid her back for my share since my business picked up. However, if we had not taken the vacations, my money situation wouldn't have been nearly as bad as it was. 

My wife is a wedding photographer. She often comes home after a 12-hour wedding tired. I bring her cameras in for her from the car, and often massage her tired feet. When we're sitting at the table eating dinner, if she wants something not on the table she'll usually ask me to get up and get it for her and 90% of the time I do. When we've gone to bed, if she wants something downstairs she asks me to get it and 90% of the time I do. When I come home from work, the first thing I do is go downstairs to her office to greet her.

But she says I don't demonstrate my love for her enough. 

Oh, and she says I can NEVER compete in another bicycle race again because I get too self-absorbed when I'm in training. She TELLS me a lot of things, doesn't she? I've only TOLD her to do one thing: Shortly after we met, I found out that she sometimes flashed her breasts at parties (she was 40 years old!) and I told her either quit or I was gone. Other than that, I've never told her what to do or not to do.

Yet, when things are good, we have a lot of fun together. And we have very similar interests, which is one of the things that initially brought us together.

Is this enough for you guys to give me an informed opinion? She tells me her friends says she was right to throw me out because I'm a bum. My friends say I shouldn't go back because she's a selfish princess. 

I don't know what to do. Help!!


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

In the end it will be up to you and her to fix the marriage but to me from what I have read it is very one sided. You have to get her expensive jewelry and she doesn't like cute gifts that you put thought and effort into. Money is always an issue with her. I think there are signs here. 

Who owns the house you were thrown out of? Who has been paying the bills there (both I would think) yet she is in complete control?

Not saying you are a prince among men. You have been selfish and self absorbed in self-pity (sorry but that is how I read it). But I would never have stuck with a woman who was that one sided. Sorry but she isn't a step mother either because she seems to have no atachment to your two kids, she can throw them away as easy as you.

The only thing she cares about is the dog and maybe only because she can't care for it herself.

draconis


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

She is a selfish princess. It's entirely your choice if you want to put up with the selfishness. I can't see anything for you in this relationship. She obviously isn't willing to work on things.

I hate to say this, but she won't be fit for a relationship until she loses her pride and has humility.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

There is another guy on this forum who will readily admit that he was trapped by his woman's super-model looks. Personally, I would count your blessings. Your sex drive will improve with a woman who is kind hearted. This wife of yours sounds like a rock on which to repeatedly bash your head.

At your age, if you practise a bit of semen retention, like me you will be able to ball 3 times a day, and still be gasping for more. If you do retention, you should also do kegels to keep your PC and BC muscles healthy.

Read my story here:
Semen Retention - The sexuality support group forum


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## dcrim (Oct 1, 2008)

KYguy, that's no kind of life. She may be a "princess" but I'd use a different 5 letter word. IMHO, I'd say count your blessings and get out of there. If she wants jewelry, she can buy it herself. That she shows no appreciation for the thoughtful things you've tried to do merely shows that the only thing she's thinking about is herself. It's not all her fault, either (you were going through a depression period - where was her compassion??), but mostly it is. Did you have any idea of her nature before marriage? What was her parents life like? Perhaps some of that rubbed off on her? If I can't afford something, I don't get it. Or look for something cheaper (read: less expensive).


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## NikiVicious (Oct 2, 2008)

Ok, I am going to give my honest female opinion 

It sounds like you haven't made many efforts to put her 'in her place' and stand up for yourself in this relationship. Dracs is right, it is very one sided. 

Since she is probably not used to you attempting to put her in her place with a good old fashioned two way conversation, my guess is that she will probably not respond well to it AT FIRST. 

But it may be worth a try IF you want to make your marriage work. Try a letter. Sometimes letters help us reflect without being so quick to argue with the spoken word. 

Should she desire for this to work, she has to be willing to compromise with you and your demands. So, KyGuy, WHAT ARE YOUR NEEDS ? WHAT POSITIVES DO YOU HOPE TO HAVE IN OF YOUR MARRIAGE? WHAT WILL MAKE YOU HAPPY? Communicate wtih her. Don't put your head down anymore. I guess the "grin & bare it" method is not working well. You've LET her be the PRINCESS for long enough by not standing up for yourself. 

Since you are living apart, try to take her on a 'date' and maybe discuss some of your feelings with her. Open up. Stand up. But do it with heart and be genuine!


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

Hey guys, thank you very much for your replies. 

By the way, to the poster who asked, the house was hers prior to the marriage, but of course I paid half the mortgage while I was there (that was one bill I paid even during financial down times). I'm now living in the condo I had before I met her, which I was renting out till now.

Any women out there who can offer their thoughts.

Here's a bit more of the story:

This past Friday was her birthday. She was out of town then visiting friends. I bought her some flowers and left them on her kitchen table with a card and, as a birthday gift, an invitation to dinner at the restaurant of her choice. I also wrote that we should talk, and she should make it clear to me what she wants.

She came by today to pick up the dog and said NOT ONE WORD about the flowers or the card. No thanks, no nothing. 

I guess it's getting clearer and clearer where this is going.


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

Oh good, a female reply. Thanks Niki.

Actually, I have stood up for myself. For example, she told me no more bike racing. Ain't gonna happen -- I AM bike racing again and I told her so. That's one of our fights. I do get a bit self-absorbed when I train, and I really haven't the energy or desire to do much except work and train, but we're talking basically 6-7 weeks out of the year, and I think she can allow me that -- especially because I usually win the race! If she loves me, she can let me do this, that's how I feel. I'd never keep her from doing something she loves.

Now, I haven't trained for a bike race for two years, just to please her, but just the thought that I am going to do it again sets her off. There is a slim possibility that if I promise her no more bike racing (which she has asked me to promise and I refuse to) that she might be willing to work on the marriage. 

She also asked me over the spring to take some days off from working so we could have some full days together. Well, after the financial crisis we had, no way I was going to sacrifice income for anything! I arranged some half days off work, but that wasn't good enough for her. And wouldn't you know it, for the last 4 weeks I've managed to have one full day off work each week -- BUT NOW SHE DOESN'T WANT TO SPEND THE DAY WITH ME.

I don't THINK I've been a doormat -- I've tried to be accommodating, but I've stood up for myself when necessary. Or do you disagree?


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## NikiVicious (Oct 2, 2008)

You know: Bike racing isn't a destructive thing at all. Its game, so game on! Maybe the 'self absorbed' thing is more like a competative side? In which case, Thats good (to be a little competative while in the game)! Or, maybe it is 'self absorbed' in the sense that you aren't DOING IT FOR HER! In which case, she's a princess that can't handle you doing things that don't cater to her! 



> _Now, I haven't trained for a bike race for two years, just to please her, but just the thought that I am going to do it again sets her off. There is a slim possibility that if I promise her no more bike racing (which she has asked me to promise and I refuse to) that she might be willing to work on the marriage. _


If that isn't a control factor, I don't know what is. Since you love bike racing so much why haven't you trained in two years? You did say.... 'to please her..' You've put that sport you like on hold in all hopes that she MAY put her efforts into making your marriage work?!?!?!

I am just pointing out that she is SO USED TO YOU accomodating to HER needs. She has made little effort (based on your post) to do the same for you! I am not exactly calling you a doormat. Generous in catering to her needs. Not demanding equality. I suppose that if you make a stride for equality it will only push her further away than she already is.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Hi KyGuy,

You've actually got two female opinions--Although my user ID doesn't sound feminine, I'm a middle aged woman.



KyGuy said:


> This past Friday was her birthday. She was out of town then visiting friends. I bought her some flowers and left them on her kitchen table with a card and, as a birthday gift, an invitation to dinner at the restaurant of her choice. I also wrote that we should talk, and she should make it clear to me what she wants.
> 
> She came by today to pick up the dog and said NOT ONE WORD about the flowers or the card. No thanks, no nothing.


This says even more. I know love is blind, but honestly why would you want to live with someone so spoiled and selfish? She seems perfectly happy with who she is and how she behaves. I'm sorry, but I just don't see her changing. You deserve much better than this! Was she always such a "princess"? 

Lately I've been doing a lot of reading/research on pride & humility. I think your wife is one of those people who isn't going to step down from her thrown until her "world" comes to an end. Her behavior won't improve until she one day "hits rock bottom" and experiences humility. Therefore, I'm not sure there is anything you can do or say to change your wife's cold heart.


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

827Aug said:


> Hi KyGuy,
> but honestly why would you want to live with someone so spoiled and selfish?


I've been thinking about this a lot. I guess love really is blind, but I'm working to take the blinders off so I can see her as she is instead of how I've idealized her.

You know what's funny? She calls ME spoiled and selfish. Much of that stems from my single-minded focus when I'm training for a race. And it stems from my unwillingness to help her when she was so bogged down with work two years ago while I was focused on my training. But I've apologized and apologized. For her to equate my not helping her as a betrayal on par with cheating is crazy! Or am I wrong?

Anyway, everyone's comments are very helpful. I know I'm at fault for some things, but by and large I don't deserve what she's throwing at me. For some reason, she doesn't want to file -- she wants that burden to fall on me -- but I want to make sure it's hopeless before I take that step.

NOT looking forward to being twice divorced! On the plus side, she'll owe me money for my payments for her car, the hot tub and other items that stay with her.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

I agree with the two above posters. She is only happy when she gets her way even if it means you get nothing.

Most woman would love flowers and a card. But to her you didn't spend enough and it isn't flashy jewelry. 

draconis


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

KyGuy said:


> For her to equate my not helping her as a betrayal on par with cheating is crazy! Or am I wrong?


No of course you're not wrong. You dont feel it was equal to cheating. There's nothing wrong with that. 

She's not wrong either. Its how she feels. She's telling you how she feels and you're telling her she's wrong because its not how you feel...that's always a problem.

Im going to have to go against the grain here and say, that of course your story is one-sided. You wrote it. But im going to guess you two are more alike then different in regards to money issues and being self-revolving.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

KyGuy said:


> I don't THINK I've been a doormat -- I've tried to be accommodating, but I've stood up for myself when necessary. Or do you disagree?


As you're asking... I think yes, you have been playing Mr. Nice Guy to a fault. As *ljtseng *says, your story is one sided, but taking you at your word, you sound like a push-over.


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## husbandinthemking (Oct 3, 2008)

You want to save your marriage?

I would read "Women are from mars, men are from venus". Seriously. It explains how a woman and a man are different and how to overcome communication problems. It works wonders, trust me.

Also get "Save Your Marriage" or "Love Boost!" at zaxxes.com.

I am too tired to respond in detail right now. Sorry. This is all I have to offer. 

Why don't they teach this stuff in school??!??! GEESH!


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## Channy (Aug 25, 2008)

First of all. It is never right to keep someone from doing what they love doing. Everybody needs their own interests! 

Personally the money thing would have been a deal breaker for me. I personally think, you are in this together, no matter who is paying how much yadda yadda....and REQUIRING you to buy her expensive gifts to be happy is ridiculous. (and yes I too am female) I would NEVER make my husband buy me something expensive, hell I even told him how to get my wedding set for a REALLY good deal (it was originally $1400 and I found it slightly used same exact set for $500) and am just as happy as if he bought it brand new. We put all of our money in one place, pay all the bills from it, then with the leftover we talk about what we want to do.... we get to do our own things with it too. But everything is talked about and no issue ever comes up about who is paying more for what blah blah blah. 

ANYHOW. The post before this one listed some good books for saving relationships, I have some too  These 3 are all by Gary Chapman, they are The 5 love languages: how to express heartfelt committment to your mate, the 5 languages of apology: how to experiences healing in all your relationships, and A couple's guide to a growing marriage.

Good luck in whatever route you take! I hope everything works out for the best.


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

An interesting mix of opinions here. Thank you to everyone who has offered advice.

I'll read the recommended books, but I don't think it'll make much difference since she isn't willing to work on the marriage.

She still hasn't responded to the flowers/card/dinner invitation I left her, which I know she received because I left them on the kitchen table. Her silence speaks volumes.

I think the signs of her "tendencies" were there early, I just ignored them. There was the deal with the wedding ring. And this: When we started planning the day-to-day details of our marriage, we discussed pooling our money. No hers and mine, just ours. But she did not want to be responsible for any part of my child support obligation to my ex-wife. Plus she felt that, with me moving in to her house with my two boys, I should pay 2/3 of the water and electric bills. I refused. She also wanted me to pay her half the cost of renovating the basement for her home office, which freed up 2 upstairs bedrooms to be used as the boys' bedrooms. Again, I refused. That's another grudge she has held against me. ANyway, you can see where our money issues arose. In the end, we decided to keep our money separate and each pay half for the household bills. But when my business downturned and I couldn't pay my half, she got very resentful. But you guys already know that story.

Typing this out now, I can only say WTF???? What kind of marriage is that? WHy have I been fooling myself these last 3 1/2 years that we had a marriage? We had a business arrangement!!

Reading some of the other threads in this section, it saddens me how easily my wife is willing to make me leave the houase and end the marriage. I read threads about people with spouses with drinking/drug issues, temper issues, pot-smoking laziness issues, and yet the other spouse is still trying to save the marriage. And our issues are so much less than that, yet she's not willing to go to counseling or work on things. I've fixed what she asked me to fix (make more money, make more time for us, etc.) but it doesn't make any difference.

I'll see her Friday when I pick up the dog for the weekend. If she still isn't willing to take a step forward, I'm filing. I'm done with this nonsense.


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## NikiVicious (Oct 2, 2008)

Wow. Maybe she doesn't want to make this work, nonetheless, I think she "wants her cake," which is fine if you are in business with someone... 

I've seen some marriages end because of money (my mom and step dad actually). Money issues can hit home. 

Has she admitted that she is upset regarding some of the financial decisions? 

I see you've re-thought your marriage and what it is based on. Only you can truely know that.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Hi KyGuy,

It does sound as though your marriage was on shaky ground from the start. I am always one of the first to recommend against divorce. However, it does take two people to work on a marriage. And in your case, there's only one person making an effort. Your conscience should be clear; you tried! I am curious about one thing though. If she wanted you out of the house so bad and won't have anything to do with you, why won't she just file for divorce? What is she waiting on?


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

*Has she admitted that she is upset regarding some of the financial decisions? *

Oh, yes! That's been the basis for so much of our discord. She HATED being the primary breadwinner (a situation I exacerbated by focusing more on my bike racing than on helping her through her busy time, but I've apologized over and over for that). She hared being the only one of us saving money for the future - but I fixed that, so you'd think she'd be happy. Instead, she still *****es about it.

*I am curious about one thing though. If she wanted you out of the house so bad and won't have anything to do with you, why won't she just file for divorce? What is she waiting on?*

I wish you could tell me> I haven't a clue. When we last spoke, she said something about being happy with our current situation, and wanting to give me time to get used to our situation. She said she did not look forward to being divorced again. _Sounds like she wants out, right? _ 

So I point blank asked her, "Are you telling me there's nothing I can do to fix things?," and she wouldn't answer. I asked if she was waiting for me to file, and she again wouldn't answer. So she's giving me mixed messages. When I again suggested counseling, she said there are some things counseling can't fix. And there's the matter of her total non-response to the flowers and dinner invitation. How rude and disrespectful! Even saying "thanks for the flowers, but I'm not having dinner with you" would be the decent thing to do.

She may be "happy with our situation" but it's killing me. I'm tired of reacting to her and waiting for her. So Friday, she either agrees to try in some way, any way, something, or I'm done. We're likely done anyway, because I feel such anger and lack of trust toward her anyway.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

I think you need to do what is best for you. 

Not only does she seem selfish but it almost points to her playing you. Maybe you haven't gotten her hint that she wants you to buy your way into the relationship. (sorry that is what it sounds like to me.)

draconis


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## believer (Apr 22, 2008)

KYGuy - from what you have written your wife definitely sounds very controlling & seems to find fault with everything. 
I am sure you were doing things to try to make her happy as that is what "good" husbands do - right? But she seems impossible to make happy - no matter how hard you try. 
Now that you are out of the situation, you seem to be able to see more clearly the situation, as you were able to take a step back & really evaluate the situation. In the begining you were so worried about moving out & losing her & now you are realizing that you may not want that life back. 

You mentioned this is your 2nd marriage & not looking forward to being divorced again. How much of a factor do you think that is in your decision making process? 

My husband & I have been seperated for 6 months now. And having the time apart has really helped to "step back" & really look at our relationship and most importantly figure out what is going to make me happy. In the past, I put all others before me in making decisions. 
So maybe/possibly/by some remote chance - by seperating you wife might come to realize what she has lost. Someone above said when she hit rock bottom - when she realizes that you are not there for her & catering to her every need. Maybe she might appreciate you more when you are not there. But if you do go back - make sure it is for the right reasons & that you each have an understanding of what you are both willing to put into the marriage. 
There seems to be a heavy emphasis on the financial situation - you splitting bills, vacations, etc. Maybe if you had a joint account that you both contribute to that might help? If needed, you agree to take a certain amount from each paycheck into your own personal account to do what you please. But if your money is together - maybe there won't be so much fighting over it. And she may have to reconsider her expensive taste because she may be footing the bill??

Not sure if that was helpful - best wishes & take time on your own to decide what you want. Not what she wants.


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

Thanks to all who have responded. I carefully read and think about each post.

Here's the latest:

We had a two-hour talk last night at my insistence. I simply cannot remain in limbo anymore, and I told her that either she show me in some way that she wants to work on the marriage, or I am calling it quits. 

We began discussing how ridiculous it would be to pay thousands of $$$ to lawyers to fight our battles, and how much more sensible it would be to negotiate our own terms and then pay a lawyer $400 to file the papers and be done with it. And we agreed to not try to screw each other out of money. She mentioned the hot tub and a few other items that we bought which will stay at her house, and how we'd determine the fair-market value and she would pay me half. 

So far, so good.

Then she brings up again how, before I moved in, she paid to have the basement renovated as her home office, freeing up 2 bedrooms for my boys, and that I still owed her half that money. And I said that she stood to benefit from the improvement to the house, and no way was I going to pay for improvements to a house that would not be mine. And I said she owed me for the half of her car payments I've been making for the past 4 years, and she said she wasn't obligated to pay me that. So now we're at a sticking point.

Then I asked her why she totally ignored the flowers and card and dinner invitation I left for her birthday and she said she ignored them because she was hurt that I took the cheap way out of giving her a birthday gift. That if I was really interested in saving the relationship I'd have given her something with a little more thought behind it.

*Okay -- am I right in thinking that her statement confirms my worst fears about her greedy me-me-me attitude?*??? Because I thought my gift was just right considering the current state of our relationship. Several of my female friends also thought my gift was perfect.

Anyway, we touched on a few more issues, and then almost crying she said that she really didn't want to rush into any decision right now and could I please just back off a bit. She said she really wanted to think about some of the things I said. She said she still felt a lot of love for me. I guess that's something I've wanted to hear because I got choked up too, and I said we didn't have to rush into a decision now, but I need to know that she is at least working toward some kind of resolution and not just coasting. 

So that's where we are now. We're going to wash the dog together tomorrow (Monday), which will be the first time we've actually done something together in 5 weeks. 

I still don't know if we're going to be able to work things out -- I may truly be coming to realize that she is not who I thought she was. I don't know.

As always, I'd love to read any feedback/comments.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

At least the seperation has given you perspective on the situation. It also seems to me that money is still her key concern here. Maybe tomorrow will feel out a few things for both of you.

draconis


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

KyGuy said:


> She told me that she finds bald men unattractive and that if I lost much of my hair she wanted me to get hair plugs. Yet, when she contemplated getting breast implants, I told her to do what made her happy, but I really didn't want her to have unnecessary surgery.
> 
> I don't know what to do. Help!!


y'know, i've been following this thread for a while. you know what my self destructive evil side would do? shave my freaking head and buy her a padded bra. inside one of the cups i'd place a nice diamond bracelet. now, is she happy? message sent. i know you love her, your words prove that. but do you love yourself?


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## MichelleB (Oct 13, 2008)

draconis said:


> I think you need to do what is best for you.
> 
> Not only does she seem selfish but it almost points to her playing you. Maybe you haven't gotten her hint that she wants you to buy your way into the relationship. (sorry that is what it sounds like to me.)
> 
> draconis


agreed do what is best for yourself. Not enough people do that.

I did what was best for me and divorced my husband who I caught cheating and finally ended it. I was so upset though at the ordeal, I decided to sell the diamond engagement ring he bought me to I Do Now I Don't so I could have some closure. Serves him right.


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## believer (Apr 22, 2008)

As my name implies - I am a believer in marriage & do think you need exhaust all your options before you make the final - no going back decision of divorce. 
so maybe for once your wife might be right to not rush into things, this will be a life changing experience for both of you & sounds like you've already been through one divorce already. 
I can completely understand the "not wanting to be in limbo" but you need to take time to get some perspective on your situation. which I think this seperation has definitley be able to give you.

I think it is a positive that she mentioned - lets think this through however, if & when you decide to work on things. It won't be an easy road ahead & think especially for your wife - she will need to come down off her "high horse" & be happy with what she has - not always thinking she deserves better.

Take time to make the right decision - one that you feel is best for YOU.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

KyGuy said:


> she said she ignored them because she was hurt that I took the cheap way out of giving her a birthday gift.


This just sounds so manipulative to me. After reading the 5 Love Languages, I understand that some people feel loved by receiving gifts but when she expects you to put it above financial stability & puts a price tag on what you should give her it just seems off the deep end to me. I'm a 45 yr old wife (2nd marriage) and I think the flowers and card were a totally appropriate gesture considering the state of your marriage.

I'm glad you are both backing off on any immediate decisions but in the meantime, I think you should also take stock of what you need from the marriage and if she really wants to make it work, she will need to compromise as well. I can understand the complications with child support, but couldn't you pool your income and give her a separate check equal to child support to do with as she wishes?


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

KyGuy said:


> *Has she admitted that she is upset regarding some of the financial decisions? *
> 
> Oh, yes! That's been the basis for so much of our discord. She HATED being the primary breadwinner (a situation I exacerbated by focusing more on my bike racing than on helping her through her busy time, but I've apologized over and over for that). She hared being the only one of us saving money for the future - but I fixed that, so you'd think she'd be happy. Instead, she still *****es about it.
> 
> ...



it does seem like you have some anxiety trying to please her...do this...write down 3-5 things per day that you are happy/thankful for...this is an excercise my counselor had me do...be honest with your list...it can be anything...if mcdonalds french fries make you happy today, write it down...

what you find out is if your wife pops up too many times(if you write "she said i love you", "she brought me lunch" "she didn't get pissed at me when i picked up the dog")...you are putting your happiness in her hands...that will cause you undue anxiety...anxiety leads to stress...stress kills...


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

Thanks again to everyone who has offered advice here. I appreciate it.




voivod said:


> i know you love her, your words prove that. but do you love yourself?


I've been thinking a lot about that myself. Yes, I do love myself. And I'm neither self-destructive nor depressed. Probably just a bit unsure of myself, to be honest. And not real fond of the prospect of having to date again at age 51.

It's been a week and we are in stasis. No change. We've talked a bit, but not about our situation. Actually, when I stopped by to pick up the dog (we share him) yesterday, we talked about day-to-day stuff and it was very nice and pleasant, like we used to be. That's the relationship I miss, and that I grieve for. Because, until now, I could forgive and forget the selfish/greedy aspects of her personality. 

No more.

We're going to have to resume our talk and figure out how to end things, because I don't see us getting back together without her making some major changes in attitude and perspective. And that's not likely.

And, there is nobody in my circle of family/friends who think I would be making a mistake by ending it. My entire family, and most of my friends, really liked my wife before all this. Now, nobody can figure her out.


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

voivod said:


> it does seem like you have some anxiety trying to please her...do this...write down 3-5 things per day that you are happy/thankful for...this is an excercise my counselor had me do...be honest with your list...it can be anything...if mcdonalds french fries make you happy today, write it down...
> 
> what you find out is if your wife pops up too many times(if you write "she said i love you", "she brought me lunch" "she didn't get pissed at me when i picked up the dog")...you are putting your happiness in her hands...that will cause you undue anxiety...anxiety leads to stress...stress kills...


Good suggestion.

Four months ago, she would have popped up on the list a lot. Now, not at all. I've stopped trying to please her. I've stopped doing anything for her. In fact, when I stopped by the other day, she asked me to do her a favor (run an errand) and I said no. AND SHE TOLD ME THE NEXT DAY THAT SHE WAS "STEAMED" AT ME FOR SAYING NO!!! As if I really owe her anything right now!


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

KyGuy said:


> Actually, when I stopped by to pick up the dog (we share him) yesterday, we talked about day-to-day stuff and it was very nice and pleasant, like we used to be. That's the relationship I miss, and that I grieve for. Because, until now, I could forgive and forget the selfish/greedy aspects of her personality.<<<AS HAS BEN POSTED ON DIFFERENT THREADS, IT'S OK TO HAVE GOOD CLEAN CONVERSATION...SMALL TALK...THAT HELPS FOR WHEN IT'S TIME TO SEGUE INTO RELATIONSHIP, OR BIG, TALK
> 
> No more.
> 
> ...


best of luck...remember, keep yourself to keep your sanity


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

KyGuy-

I would be shocked at this point if she is NOT already having an affair.


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> KyGuy-
> 
> I would be shocked at this point if she is NOT already having an affair.


Believe me, that has been on my mind for awhile. My family and friends constantly bring it up as a possibility.

Sure, it's possible. If she is, right now I would prefer not to know. I'm at a pretty good place emotionally. I just don't want to have to deal with the anger and sense of betrayal I would feel if I knew she was involved with someone else. I just came out of feeling sad and anxious all the time, and I need some peace right now. I want to think clearly and act rationally, and finding out she is having an affair would not be conducive to calm, rational behavior on my part.

I guess I'll ask her soon enough, because we're going to have to resolve this stalemate soon. I'm about ready to move on with my life -- with her or without her. And right now, without her seems the likeliest course.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

The smartest move in that case, may be to move on without even asking her. You are bound to find out in the end, and you will have the time and distance to properly compose your reaction.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Hi KyGuy,

I've been continuing to follow the post on this thread and several things come to mind. I asked earlier why she didn't just file for divorce. Well, I think I have an idea now. Not only is she very spoiled, she is very selfish and controling. She made you move out to "teach you a lesson". I'm not sure she really wanted a divorce. She just wanted to "get you under control". In her ego driven mind, she figured you would humble yourself even more and come crawling back to her.

As for her cheating, that may be questionable. Going back to her mind-set again. Who is going to be good enough for her? Who is going to have enough money for her? 

You may be messing with her mind more than you realize.....


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

827Aug said:


> Hi KyGuy,
> 
> I've been continuing to follow the post on this thread and several things come to mind. I asked earlier why she didn't just file for divorce. Well, I think I have an idea now. Not only is she very spoiled, she is very selfish and controling. She made you move out to "teach you a lesson". I'm not sure she really wanted a divorce. She just wanted to "get you under control". *In her ego driven mind, she figured you would humble yourself even more and come crawling back to her.*
> 
> ...


You're very astute. I've come to a similar conclusion.

In fact, she was here just a while ago to pick up the dog. First thing she told me was how much she misses my boys (both of whom have said they wouldn't blame me for divorcing her) She was in a rush, but I told her we were going to have to talk very soon because if I'm staying in the condo I want to fix it up as a home. I told her that I want to move on with my life one way or another. Again, she got upset and seemed caught off guard. I told her we were going to have to come to a resolution, and soon.

I'm going to give her just a bit more time to think about everything. 

And I think this says it all:

*In her ego driven mind, she figured you would humble yourself even more and come crawling back to her.[/B

I called her bluff. Now she's not sure what to do.

I'm still doubtful our marriage can be saved, but at least I'm trying, at least I'm attempting to get us to talk.*


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

Robyn:

Read your post. My initial reaction was "wow"! Just... "wow!"

There's a lot of wisdom there in addition to the anger. Thanks for your perspective.

The house she tossed me out of was hers before we married, by the way. I did pay half the monthly mortgage while I was there.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

KyGuy-

Now that you're getting the upper hand you need to keep it. This woman can't be trusted with power. It's like an alcoholic in a brewery.

Do not sell out. Even if you take her back, let her do the crawling, or you will regret it for a very long time.


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

She sent me this email:

Hi,

I do not want to feel pressured or rushed into making a decision right now, especially as I am somewhat distracted with running my business. I would like to make the decision in January.


And I wrote back:


You wrote "Hi." Just "Hi." ????

This is not a decision that should be made under pressure or rushed, I agree.

Still, this "limbo" has gone on long enough. For me, anyway. I'm not sure I can wait until January. Besides, I'm likely to be busier then than I am now. 

Plus, it is not "your" decision to make. It is "ours." Or, it could just be mine. I want you to understand that no matter what "you" might decide, I may very well choose not to come back. You have done and said many things since you threw me out that have lessened my opinion of you. You have revealed yourself to me in ways that I don't think you even realize. The blinders are off, and I no longer see you as I did. I see you as you are.

You think I have a lot of changes to make to become a true partner. Yes, there are some things I need to do better. 

Your list of "improvements to make," however, is longer than mine. Deny it all you want, but it's true.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

I think your email was good, except for the last line. You should never put more than 50% of the blame on anybody. Let us not forget, that your mismanagement of the situation, and your inattention to what was going on, went a long way to creating the monster you now have.

So that sentence should have read:

"Your list of "improvements to make," however, is *as long* as mine."

However, if you already pressed the send button, it's too late. you will have to "brazen it out" as a friend of mine used to say. In other words, you have raised the stakes, you must not back down - not while she's looking anyway!


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

In response to my last email, she sent me the nicest, most conciliatory communication she has offered me since this whole mess began. She wondered how we got to this place and what happened to us. She talked about some of the things that she has done wrong and some of the things that I have done wrong. Mentioned that we both messed up and need to get to a point where we forgive each other.

She finally realized I was not coming back on her terms, got off her high horse, and got real.

I responded with a 7-page detailed email listing everything I was angry about, and the things she would need to change in order for me to come back. I was candid and harsh, but not mean or disrespectful. I just spoke up about everything I could think of that bothered me about her behavior during our marriage.

I saw her briefly this morning. She thanked me for my email, said she would think about what I wrote,and would get back to me in a few days.

So, that's progress.


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## KittyKat (May 11, 2008)

She is a Princess. And unless you want to keep being her jester, stay gone.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

KittyKat said:


> She is a Princess. And unless you want to keep being her jester, stay gone.


:iagree:

draconis


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

Kitty Kat and Draconis:

Your last posts seem to indicate that you doubt my wife and I will be able to come together in a way that is fair to both of us.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just waiting for her reply before I decide what to do next. She is out of town right now, and promised to get back to me next week.

So we shall see. I know we will have a tough road ahead if we decide to try. I'm not even sure I want to. And if we don't, I think I am at peace with that and ready to move on.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

Listen I don't want to sound mean to you, but what is it that you are so attracted to her for. It doesn't seem like the relationship has been really about love but that you had to prove your love each and every step with money. SO I know I am missing the bigger picture I just hope you can give us the validation..Or atleast fight back for her...

draconis


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

I think the main attraction is that we have a lot in common. We both exercise, eat healthy and keep in great shape. We both enjoy reading, and one of our favorite things is lounging away a Sunday morning eating breakfast together and reading the paper. We discuss and debate current events. We browse bookstores together. We share similar tastes in music. We're both creative types. We have similar views on religion and politics. We're both basically happy, optimistic people. 

Plus she was a really good step-mom to my kids. And the sex-- at least initially -- was fantastic.

So THAT's the part of the relationship I'm holding on to. That's what keeps me attracted.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

KyGuy said:


> I think the main attraction is that we have a lot in common. We both exercise, eat healthy and keep in great shape. We both enjoy reading, and one of our favorite things is lounging away a Sunday morning eating breakfast together and reading the paper. We discuss and debate current events. We browse bookstores together. We share similar tastes in music. We're both creative types. We have similar views on religion and politics. We're both basically happy, optimistic people.
> 
> Plus she was a really good step-mom to my kids. And the sex-- at least initially -- was fantastic.
> 
> So THAT's the part of the relationship I'm holding on to. That's what keeps me attracted.


If you both decide to continue this than you'll have to focus on this.

I do question her step mom ablity though because she hasn't spent time or called to stay in contact with them since she kicked you and them out. Just my opinion.

draconis


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

Actually, she HAS stayed in contact with both boys. She has called them on their cell phones once every week or so, and has dropped by my place to visit with them. Every time I see her she tells me she misses them.

Their attitude toward HER, however, is getting progressively more negative. My older son, in particular, finds her attempts to be "nice" to him to be hypocritical.

The issue is not how she treats them (which is good) but how she treats ME.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

KyGuy said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just waiting for her reply before I decide what to do next. She is out of town right now, and promised to get back to me next week.


I'm glad Draconis has taken up my role of being the tough guy! I would say part of her answer has already been given to you by the fact that she is making you wait a week for the response.

You can save this, but you need to be very firm with yourself. What comes across is that you acquiesced almost perpetually in the beginning. If you get back together, this will have to be a thing of the past.

The main person who needs to change is you. When the man is firm, the woman feels it. It's as simple as that. What I would do in your position is work on myself. I would make a list of the things in the relationship that I expect, and I would decide what my lines in the sand were.

You mentioned sex used to be good - perhaps implying that it got lost somewhere along the way. For me this is pretty much near the top, so I would not even consider a relationship with a princess that don't ball.

I also love the reading the paper over coffee stuff, but it's not sufficient for me. I don't mind if women want to be crabby from time to time, as long as they don't expect me to take it seriously. Usually you can humour, tickle and bounce them out of it. 

The expensive gifts thing is a show stopper for me. I have a friend with a nine year old girl who loves to dress up as a princess, and be given nice things. At her age it's cute. In a wife it resembles Marie Antoinette of "let them eat cake fame". She was rumoured to have a huge collection of shoes.


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

After a couple of back-and-forth emails stating our various grievances, here's the latest:

She wants to wait til January to make a decision. She buried under with work. (Yet she still has time for weekend camping trips, book club meetings, parties, etc.) What's not clear is does she want to wait til January to decide whether we are going to TRY to save the marriage...or HOW we are going to save the marriage.

Meanwhile, my birthday came and she asked if we could go out to dinner with my 2 boys. I told her I thought the boys would think it was weird, us trying to behave like nothing was wrong. She took that as my answer was "no." She ended up talking to my parents about that (as well as many of our other issues) and they convinced me that we SHOULD go out to dinner with the boys. And we had a good time. It was very much like the loose, easy interactions we used to have, and that I miss so much. She even gave me a cake she had specially made. But...

She is no longer wearing the ring -- yes, the ring that she just HAD to have. She told me she just doesn't want to wear it now.

She has taken down most of the pictures of the two of us that were up at the house.

At the end of the evening, while I was walking her back to her car, she kept two steps in front of me, and quickly entered her car like a woman trying to end a bad date and keep the guy from touching her. I had been hoping for a birthday hug, but it was obvious she wanted no physical contact.

So again, there's a part of me that wants to repair this, and a part that just wants to end it and move on. Meanwhile, she continues to give me mixed signals. 

Or maybe her signals are obvious as hell to an onlooker but I'm just too close or thickheaded to notice.

Opinions?


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

I wished I knew something to say to make you feel better. Unfortunately, it sounds as though your relationship is much like mine. I have two words which say it all--ego and confusion! And because our spouses have those two things going on, our lives are unbalanced.

Oh well, I'll get to discuss my unbalanced life at counseling again tomorrow. However, I do worry about your boys. Do you have custody of them? What role does their mother play in their lives? I would imagine life is getting confusing for them as well.


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

My boys are 19 and 15. Their mother and I share custody. While they've grown quite attached to my wife, they're confused and upset by her behavior. To her credit, she stays in regular contact with them.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

options?

Don't call her, let her call you if she is interested.

You sent the wrong signals by agreeing to the birthday thing. Until things are back to "normal", don't play any of her games. In the meantime, concentrate on meeting new people. Give yourself more options. Also ask yourself, do you really really want her in this state? Ask yourself why you even wanted a princess type anyway...

Here reply to your question - wait until January was all part of her power play. If it were men, I would not play ball anymore. If it were me, I would weigh up how much joy I would be likely to get out of being with her, against how much joy I could get from moving on, and if the case did not look good, I would say, "why wait 'til January?".


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## Sprite (Nov 3, 2008)

It sounds to me like she wants to be in total control. By you calling her out shows her you mean business...but...she makes you wait til January...she still has the control. What would she do if you want an answer in say a week?

The reason(just my opinion) she does not want to initiate a divorce is simply because she doenst want to be the "one to blame". She wants it to be all on you so she can tell her friends that YOU left HER...know what I mean? It is a play on her ego. It makes her feel better that she doesnt file...and that its "all your fault". She doesnt sound like the type of woman who allows herself to be accountable for her own actions.

By her taking off the ring and taking pictures off the walls, that is a sign. In her heart and mind she is already divorced...but is waiting for YOU to make it final move.

I think you should not allow her to make you wait until January. Call her out on that one right now. It isnt fair that she make you and the boys go through this over the holidays....just to prolong the agony???....maybe she is thinking you will give her some extravagant gift for the holidays...then she will have won(in her eyes) again.

I do wish you the best of luck and it sounds like you personally have been making some progress as far as how much you are willing to tolerate in this relationship....stick with your gut feeling....its usually never wrong!!!!


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

I've been completely ignoring her for the last week.

Meanwhile, I've met someone I would like to ask out. I just don't think I should do so until my marriage situation is resolved.

To complicate things further, my sister, who is hosting the family Thanksgiving dinner, invited my wife. She said yes. I told my sister that she should have asked me first if I even wanted my wife there -- after all, she kicked me out for no good reason and has taken off the ring and removed my pictures from the home.

I don't want her there, and I told my family that I am disinviting my wife from the dinner. They think I am being petty, and they feel sorry for her because she has nowhere else to be for Thanksgiving.

AM I being petty?


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

KyGuy said:


> I've been completely ignoring her for the last week.


i went back and re-read your original post trying to find something where you said you wanted to save your marriage. i could find nothing in the original post. however, i did find this line in a follow-up post by you:


KyGuy said:


> So again, there's a part of me that wants to repair this, and a part that just wants to end it and move on.


then in your most recent post, you say this:



KyGuy said:


> Meanwhile, I've met someone I would like to ask out. I just don't think I should do so until my marriage situation is resolved.


 if you wanna save the marriage, dating someone else is NOT the way to do it, in my opinion.



KyGuy said:


> To complicate things further, my sister, who is hosting the family Thanksgiving dinner, invited my wife. She said yes. I told my sister that she should have asked me first if I even wanted my wife there -- after all, she kicked me out for no good reason and has taken off the ring and removed my pictures from the home.
> 
> I don't want her there, and I told my family that I am disinviting my wife from the dinner. They think I am being petty, and they feel sorry for her because she has nowhere else to be for Thanksgiving.
> 
> AM I being petty?


your reasons seem harsh for not wanting her there, to punish her, right? but right now you don't like her for what she's done to you, right? but again, if you want to save the marriage, i don't think "uninviting" her (it's your sister's dinner, isn't it?) is the way to do it.


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

OK, now things are getting really nutty. And I know it's in part because I'm not standing firm.

I disinvited my wife from the Thanksgiving festivities. She was very upset, but said she'd abide by my wishes. Then she emailed me several times to say I was being too harsh. I said that since she doesn't want to be with me any more, she doesn't need to be at my family's event. 

So she calls me up to talk. We talk about the course of our marriage and what went wrong. She continues to bring up my faults, which I've already admitted (Which I documented in my first post). Says she doesn't believe I can correct those faults, even when I point out to her the ways in which I already have corrected them. Says I love bike racing more than her, and that I broke my initial promise to her to make her feel special every day. I point out how materialistic she is, etc. She says I have so much to fix about myself that it is unrealistic to expect me to do so,and that going to a counselor won't help.

Anyway, we don't break any new ground, and agree that divorce is the only option. There's certainty in her voice. We agree to hold off negotiating the details until after the holidays. We hang up. 

Ten minutes later she calls me back. Her voice is sad. She's been crying. Says maybe we should wait on making the decision. I tell her I am at the end of my rope, that I am the one who, for 3 months, has been asking her to go to a counselor, and that I can't take this any more. I tell her I need some certainty as to what we're doing, and she keeps giving me mixed messages, so I am done. I mean, she can't even say with certainty that she even wants to TRY to work on the marriage. She says "OK" sadly and hangs up.

I emailed her today and said it was OK if she came to Thanksgiving because I know she'll be alone otherwise, and I don't want her to be alone.

So, are we, like incredibly mixed up or what?? 

Actually, it's her. If she could say with certainty that she was willing to work on the marriage, I would do that. I don't think she knows what the hell she wants, and it's this uncertainty and her mixed messages, and me putting my life on hold that's driving me crazy. I mean, she has fixed up the house to her liking without consulting me, but I am waiting to renovate my condo because it doesn't make sense to spend that money if there's a possibility we might get back together. And I've told her this.

ARGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!


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## NikiVicious (Oct 2, 2008)

Kyguy,

It's been a while since have read your thread. I think you are taking the right direction, in standing up for yourself. You have needs and realize that. I am so happy to see that you understand that. 

Her methods are very controlling. I can absolutely 100% relate when you told her...



> You have done and said many things since you threw me out that have lessened my opinion of you. You have revealed yourself to me in ways that I don't think you even realize. The blinders are off, and I no longer see you as I did.


I've shared similar words with my husband. 

My husband has done the same since we've seperated. I am facing a similar uphill battle with my ending marriage/self. Draconis told me, and its true, how important it is to rebuild self esteem and love yourself through all of this. For so long, your self-esteem (and mine) have been in the negative. 


On another note, her plan to have a seperation/divorce is not going the way she wanted it to!!! She expected you to succumb to her needs once again. But you have been enlightened, for lack of a better word. Hold your ground. If your marriage will ever work you will both have to do whats right for each other, its highly mutual. Since it doesn't look that way, let's observe why she may have been sad/crying on the phone. It is not going the way she planned.


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

This a a great site, full of compassionate, wise, generous people.

I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. 

Looks like my marriage will be ending. She still shows a total unwillingness to work on the marriage. I told her I am moving on with fixing up the condo (new carpet, furniture and a plasma TV as a gift to myself) and her only response was when was I going to move the rest of my belongings out of her house. Answer: As soon as the new carpet gets laid down.

We're gonna negotiate terms ourself (if possible) and hire a lawyer for a few hundred bucks to file the legal papers.

Even my sister says I am better off without her, because she is all about what I can do for her, gets upset when I don't buy her expensive jewelry, and doesn't appreciate me for who I am.

Not the ending I was hoping for when I moved out 3 months ago, but I have to believe that the future holds something better for me.

Back to the cold, cruel world of dating. Yikes!!


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

dcrim said:


> KYguy, that's no kind of life. She may be a "princess" but I'd use a different 5 letter word. IMHO, I'd say count your blessings and get out of there. If she wants jewelry, she can buy it herself. That she shows no appreciation for the thoughtful things you've tried to do merely shows that the only thing she's thinking about is herself. It's not all her fault, either (you were going through a depression period - where was her compassion??), but mostly it is. Did you have any idea of her nature before marriage? What was her parents life like? Perhaps some of that rubbed off on her? If I can't afford something, I don't get it. Or look for something cheaper (read: less expensive).


drac and other suggested this to you as well. you sound pretty put together emotionally. i think you are gonna be just fine. you've weathered the worst.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

KyGuy-

I think you are gradually realising that you don't want a materialistic partner any more. Welcome to the human race  

My only wish is that you do not take any bitterness with you into your next relationship. Remember love is a verb, it's not something you feel, it's something you do. That thing we sometimes feel that gets called love, is just a chemical thing that arises when all our needs are met, by someone with the right... ahem, chemistry.

I'm not saying true love does not feel good, but it's not the same thing as that addictive rush that comes at the beginning of a new relationship.


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

No, I won't carry any bitterness into my next relationship. I want to be open and as baggage-free as possible. 

I agree that love is something you do, not feel. 

I bought a book titled "The Secret Laws of Attraction" by Talane Miedaner. It's about identifying and living your core values so you can attract like-minded people. Seems to contain some very good advice on finding a compatible person.

Anybody else read this book?


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## overitnolove (Dec 5, 2008)

Sounds to me that, energy wise, you are two different type of people. I think that she felt she was carrying you, whether that is because of her own issues or not, it is how she feels and in the end you cant helpthat. Some issues become part of someones personality.

Just respect yourself and look after yourself and go from there.


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## keefy1972 (Dec 8, 2008)

voivod said:


> drac and other suggested this to you as well. you sound pretty put together emotionally. i think you are gonna be just fine. you've weathered the worst.


I have to agree with voivod here. You are past the worst and it will get much better fast. Keep your chin up.


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## KyGuy (Oct 5, 2008)

I can't believe it's been 3 months since my last post.

We're still separated and trying to work through our issues. Neither of us wants to end it til we're sure that's the right decision, but neither of us is ready to give the marriage 100% either.

She is, now, open to seeing a counselor, but that doesn't seem to make sense until we're 100% committed to making things work.

Bike racing is still an issue. She says she just can't deal with that 6-week period prior to a race where I become totally focused on my training and can't do anything but work for a living and prepare for the race. She says she feels completely ignored during that period (which is an exaggeration, because while I do provide her less attention, I don't totally ignore her) and will not go through that again.

I say, if she loves me she can give me that 6 weeks a year and let me do what I have to do to pursue my passion. I'd never stop her from pursuing her passion -- even if it meant flying off to Africa for a month-long photo safari.

Opinions? Am I being selfish here, or is she? 

And here is a scenario she drafted describing her idea of our ideal relationship. I'm not yet going to comment on what I think of this scenario, or how close it comes to how we were living our lives before the separation. I'm looking for your unbiased comments first.

*You are the king of the castle.

I make you feel like you are the most important person in my life (you are).

When you come home, I come into the kitchen to greet you with a hug. This is easy to do because you call me on your way home so I can find a stopping point in my work. You are plugged in so you know when I have clients therefore you don’t expect me to greet you when I’m meeting with someone.

If I’m chatting on the phone, I end the call when you walk in.

If you are running a half hour late, I wait for you so we can eat lunch/dinner together.

We share our day (something we’ve always been good at).

We hug before you leave and I offer words of encouragement such as “I hope Jake is motivated today.”

If I’m asleep when you leave for work in the morning, I call you when I wake up just to tell you I’m awake and thinking of you.

At least one meal a week you are the complete king. I wait on you, fuss over you and bring you anything you want. I will clear the table and take care of the dishes, too.

If you are only home for a quick lunch, I have it made for you when you walk in the door.


I agree to not call attention to any less-than-perfect physical20traits and instead treat you like the hunky handsome man you are.

I am respectful of you and don’t cut you down or make fun of you. I praise you in front of others.

I will learn how not to be a side-seat driver.

A couple times a month I watch a tv show or movie with you, even though it may not be to my taste.

I agree that while I may cut my hair short one day, I will never keep it that way.

I agree that I need to work on being more accepting and less critical and promise to continue to work on that.

I agree that I have a tendency to interrupt and ask for your help in learning to listen without butting in.

I agree to help you whether you “need” it or not. Perhaps you think a chore would be less tedious if we did it together.

I recognize I have a tendency to keep score and I know that comes out of my feeing that I have not been a priority in your life. I feel this problem will correct itself as we start to gel as a couple. And I am willing to try to do better.
ME

I am the center of your world.


You make me feel I am the most important person in your life.

When I come home from shooting a wedding you are not in the shower or on the computer. You are in the garage waiting for me when I pull in. You greet me with a big hug and carry all the camera bags and the cooler. You are ready for me because you are plugged in and know my schedule. And I call you when I’m on my way. If I’m especially tired you will pour me a glass of water, offer to make me a protein dr ink and, yes, even massage my feet. You know th at I only do 25-30 weddings a year and are happy to make my life easier.

You want to please me. You want me to be proud of you.

You wear your contacts 80% of the time because you know that pleases me.

You wear unwrinkled hole-free clothes to the gym because you know that pleases me. You dress like a slob at home if you want.

You curtail immature bodily functions around me because you know that pleases me. You also recognize that this makes you sexier and more appealing.

You love me more than anything. And if I ever even jokingly imply otherwise, you drop everything. You scoop me up and tell me over and over that I you love me and I am the center of your world.

A couple times a month you will watch Oprah or a G-rated movie with me, even though it may not be to your taste.

You are eager to be with me and make a big deal out of my Saturdays off. You want to be with me and during the week talk about doing something special. Sometimes you can’t free your schedule, but you try.

You are thankful that because we live in a townhome you have little housework and no yard to take care of. You make sure the hot tub is maintained and the patio is well-swept.

When something breaks or needs maintenance, you take care of it within a week. If it’s beyond your skillset, you at least try to learn how to do it before calling in a repairman.

You are helpful and look for ways you can make my life easier. If you see me frantically looking for my keys/sunglasses, struggling to open a package, or if I drop a stack of papers on the floor, you are quick to sa y, “Here, let me help you.”

You also do small things to show you care: you cover my shoulders when I am sleeping, ice the walk knowing I have to go out, shovel the front steps if I have clients coming over, and sometimes walk the dog when it’s not your turn.

Answer the phone each time with: hi baby/sweetheart/darling, etc.

You agree to help me whether I “need” it or not. Perhaps a chore is less tedious if we approach it as a team.

You acknowledge that you can be a procrastinator and agree to work on that.

You recognize that I tend to get overwhelmed in my busy times at work. You sit down with me and help brainstorm together a way to make my life easier: perhaps you can stuff photos for me, or just fill my car wi th gas. You listen and respect that sometimes I work too hard and you do what you can to ease the burden and to help me help myself.

US

We are a team.

From 9pm to 9:30 every night is couple time. We spend it snuggling, reading together on the couch, watching tv or playing with doggie. Some days we have more time and may play a board game or watch a movie. Some days we may have less time. For example, if I have to make my fajitas, you grab the second cutting board and help me chop. If you need to prepare all your food for tomorrow, then I make all your protein drinks while you cook your meat.

We go to parties together. We visit your parents together most times.

We do more nature-centric activities like bike in Bernheim Forest, hike at Red River Gorge, visit Mammoth Cave, and take walks in the park.

On a date night we often do a ‘surrender date’ where you take total control of the evening. You tell me what to wear, how to fix my hair and makeup, choose the restaurant and my meal.

Our money is pooled and we spend it as a team.

We set long term goals together.

We agree we need a cleaning lady once a week. I have a much lower level of tolerance than you do-20plus have clients coming over. If we try to do it, I feel it will soon be more “me” than “we”.*


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## 1nurse (Jan 21, 2009)

You're beating a dead horse here. Bottom line file for divorce! She's not changing and you deserve to be with a woman that will APPRECIATE you. The small gestures, gifts and thoughtfulness are what MAKE a marriage. Who the hell cares about bling and material possessions. Any one with cash can do that. Some of the richest people I know are the most unhappy.  If someone turns on you instead of to you for love and support during hard times that should give you all the answers you're looking for. Just be a little more chosey as to who you end up with next. A friend of mine is on her third marriage and she tells me third time is a charm.


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## baissier (Jun 21, 2009)

Can't you two find some middle ground for the bike racing. e.g. every weekend you dedicated a day for her doing absolutely what she wants to do.


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## overitnolove (Dec 5, 2008)

I read it it made me fel sad. I come from a family full of control freaks and I'd turned into one myself--if I am honest, although not to that extreme, I was like your wife. I was micro-managing and criticising my H.

The list was so about work and control that is was frighteneing. If you guys have a chance, she needs to find wha tused to bring her joy personally and focus on that and the "plugged in" thing WTF? Scary [email protected]#t!

I am eorking on doing what makes me happy and inthe process it is helping our relationship . BUT! I still don't know if we'll make it. All I know is that the separation/ councelling thing has been a life-changing step for both of us.

She needs to get over the princess, man of the house/ 50's idiology because there is no way in hell that'd make either of you happy b/c it is a construct.

She needs a councellor BAD!

Good luck,

S


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## toomanytears (Apr 15, 2009)

I think your wife isn't going to change....she wants to be in control, so much so that it's turned into a game to see if she can make your will bend to her requirements! If you go along with "the list" you will be a very unhappy person in this marriage. Her list is ridiculous! Divorce her and move on!


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

I'm anxious to hear what YOUR thoughts are, KyGuy. My wife could have written a lot of that same list.

Hey Female Posters, is this part "normal": _You know that I only do 25-30 weddings a year and *are happy to make my life easier*._

I ask because my wife pretty much feels the same way but it feels a little self-centered to me. Am I wrong?


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## overitnolove (Dec 5, 2008)

I think it is the whole wanting to be looked after thing because of--percieved or otherwise--the feeling that we were doing all of the looking after previously.


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