# The hair of the dog that bit you, a catch 22 in reconciliation.



## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

(Picture: A monkey trap, his hand will not fit through the hole while he holds the food inside, and he will not let go.)

I have watched from a distance as couples worked out their reconciliation.

It varies from person to person, but the ones that suffer the most seem trapped in their choice to keep their partner and renew that relationship.

Their desire for their partner and the pain of the memory of the betrayal are like two embers in a fire, you fan one you fan them both.

The very act of holding onto the one you love, in light of their betrayal, ensnares you to the pain you long to be free of.

Ultimately the ones who do well dont seem as invested in exclusivity. The first relationship is gone and they are building a new one, since they have both been changed by the tragedy that is infidelity.

I have no doubt that it is worth it to them, but I/we watch powerlessly to do very much for them.

Having been on TAM for a while I appreciate now even more how difficult it really is.

I think a person has to really count the cost, not to dissuade them but so they truly know the price that has to be paid in that decision.

I wish anyone well who attempts it.

I really dont even mean to start an ongoing thread, I would welcome any insights, but I just wanted to put down some thoughts for future use.

Take care!


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

I don't find fault with anyone attempting reconciliation. That said, almost all do so foolishly.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Do you think reconciliation hinders the healing process?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Do you think reconciliation hinders the healing process?


Without a doubt.

That's why I am such an advocate for a 90 day separation. To clear the mind, step back and see the big picture and make a better decision if one wants to reconcile or not.

Also, I'd bet my paycheck that 90+% of the betrayers continue to betray during the 90 days to a certain degree. That's when one knows if reconciliation will work or not.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> Without a doubt.
> 
> That's why I am such an advocate for a 90 day separation. To clear the mind, step back and see the big picture and make a better decision if one wants to reconcile or not.
> 
> Also, I'd bet my paycheck that 90+% of the betrayers continue to betray during the 90 days to a certain degree. That's when one knows if reconciliation will work or not.


Also isn't their a difference between a ONS and someone invested in a LTA or repeated infidelities? I could see forgiving a ONS of a remorseful spouse but a LTA seems like a high mountain to climb.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Also isn't their a difference between a ONS and someone invested in a LTA or repeated infidelities? I could see forgiving a ONS of a remorseful spouse but a LTA seems like a high mountain to climb.


That's like asking if it's better to be knifed or shot to death. Either way, you've been murdered. One way is just a little more messy.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Why should I reconcile?

I have seen your tears and heard your pleading, you want to try and save this marriage. Why now?

Some new found love for us? Things went bad for you and you want to renegotiate?

How am I supposed to feel about that? It would have been so much less painful to have fixed this before you cheated.

I don’t want to be cruel or mean but I have to ask the hard questions now. Questions that I thought I had the answers to when I first said “I do”. 

Now there is no benefit of the doubt, and yet there you are, broken and pleading with me, asking me if we can strive together to make this work. 

You have spent so much of our time, treasure, and energy and on another man/woman. You set fire to and burned down or marriage, family and lives and you want to know, will I invest myself in you and us for the next ten years to try and recover something of the dream I had when I saw you walk down the aisle. (or As I walked down the aisle)

It’s the unspoken things and the uncertain things that hurt most.

Do you really love me?

Will you really be able to get over him/her? Will you be honest about it?

How do I live with someone I don’t trust?

Why?


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## jay_gatsby (Jun 4, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Also isn't their a difference between a ONS and someone invested in a LTA or repeated infidelities? I could see forgiving a ONS of a remorseful spouse but a LTA seems like a high mountain to climb.


Some LTA can be considered almost like a mini marriage, no? Like the WS is married to two people, one in real life, the other in a fantasy. Many posts on this site with WS involved in very long LTA/LTRs. When a LTR lasts for almost half your marriage, it's hard to separate the the real from fantasy.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

There are many reasons that people factor into their decision to reconcile.

My observation is that most people enter into it not as a decision, but as a result of following their heart.
(This will likely not go unchallenged here on TAM)

Their life has been rocked, their partner revealed as unfaithful, they grab for the pieces as they fall to keep them from breaking.

The BS usually does not realize how broken the relationship really is.

Often the WS has know for some time, had a chance to disconnect, and can visualize a future with the AP.

Most often it seems to me that the WS does not think that far ahead, they simply just do not expect to get caught.

This touches on the type of affair that the WS is involved in, an exit affair, a revenge affair, a cake eating affair, a ONS, a response to abuse, their partner is Lascivious (an open marriage, swinging type), etc...

As the BS considers "R" he/she needs to begin here, at the type of affair, the other reasons will more or less follow on this.

Reasons to reconcile. In no particular order.
1. Children
2. Finances
3. Social standing or employment
4. Emotional and physical bonding
5. Friendship with spouse
6. Mutual friendships
8. Familiarity
9. Families
10.Fear of being alone
11.Fear of dating
12.Religious reasons
13.Possessiveness of WS (Cant imagine spouse with someone else)
14.Genuine love.
15.All the rest which I cannot think of or name ATM.

The one thing that I would like a BS to consider is, to reconcile because the relationship has a proven potential for connection and happiness. (Assuming that the WS is truly remorseful and would be a good risk.)

If the relationship and connection have never really been there or they would be unattainable, I would think long and hard before I let any of the other reasons persuade me.

Take care!


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

I guess a BS should consider what consequences are appropriate.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

And so Decorum---you have the answers---answer me this---How does the betrayed---deal with his/her sub--conscious for the rest of his/her life---cuz the destruction will always be there---it never goes away---it may lessen, depending on what path the betrayed takes in living out his/her life---but it never goes away----the sub--conscious---NEVER ALLOWS IT TO GO AWAY


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Decorum said:


> I have watched from a distance as couples worked out their reconciliation.
> 
> It varies from person to person, but the ones that suffer the most seem trapped in their choice to keep their partner and renew that relationship.
> 
> ...


I am one who has stayed with the betrayer. I stay for a few reasons.
1. Better the devil you know than one you don't.
2. The cost of the fall out in terms of suffering for our kids; and if you have a lovely home and life, it's hard to turn your back on all that.
3. Fear of the unknown. Weakness in other words.
4. But by far the most important reason I stay, is because of the total remorse and recommitment to the marriage by my H. 
I see it in his eyes, in his demeanour. I see the way he will reassure me any minute of the day or night, whenever I need it and no matter what he is doing. That he is willing to give up anything, go anywhere, anytime. That he is willing to be anything that I ask of him to prove his remorse for what he did. 
I see it in his eyes and hear it in his voice when he thinks that I will leave him.

If it weren't for number 4, then none of the others reasons would even matter. He would be gone.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> I don't find fault with anyone attempting reconciliation. That said, almost all do so foolishly.


BP-

Can you clarify for me? This seems like a "blanket" statement, so I'd like to know how one attempts reconciliation with a WS foolishly.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I am one who has stayed with the betrayer. I stay for a few reasons.
> 1. Better the devil you know than one you don't.
> 2. The cost of the fall out in terms of suffering for our kids; and if you have a lovely home and life, it's hard to turn your back on all that.
> 3. Fear of the unknown. Weakness in other words.
> ...


BetrayedAgain, 

I can identify most with your statement numbers one and four right now. IMO, statements one and three are inextricably interwoven. In other words, familiarity with spouse is greater comfort than moving on into the unfamiliar world of being alone and perhaps at some point, other relationships. 

I am in total agreement that your statement number four is primary and foundational to all others. Without evidence of remorse, everything else is meaningless. 

Sending my best wishes to you and yours.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Do you think reconciliation hinders the healing process?


I certainly believe that's the case. That's why I recommend leaving the cheater and working on yourself. Once you feel you are better you can try and reconcile. If the cheater is truly remorseful, they'll wait; faithfully. If they don't wait, then they weren't remorseful and the betrayed is better off without them.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

jnj express said:


> And so Decorum---you have the answers---answer me this---How does the betrayed---deal with his/her sub--conscious for the rest of his/her life---cuz the destruction will always be there---it never goes away---it may lessen, depending on what path the betrayed takes in living out his/her life---but it never goes away----the sub--conscious---NEVER ALLOWS IT TO GO AWAY


I have the answers, ha ha that's good to know and news to me.

I'm actually feeling rather melancholy about it.

I don't think it ever goes away, but it affects people differently depending on how they are wired.

Its not a matter of strength or weakness, its just that people are different, so some suffer more.

There is no right or wrong way to feel in these things.

Perhaps I should not say it out loud, because I do not want to discourage any of the dear people going through it, but I am more cynical now than when I first started reading on TAM.

And yet there are people who have made it work, Rookie, Theguy, and others who are in the process.

My younger sister and her husband have recovered well also.

jnj express, the tone of your post concerns me, I'm sorry for what you are going through.

I'm sure you really would like answers to the questions you raise. I will share what I can. (Give me a few days)

Perhaps I have a "know it all" persona and you react to that (ouch!), or you are defensive regarding your condition, and its hard for you to ask for help (I hope not). 

Or maybe you are a "cut to the chase" kind of guy, I like that.

btw...



Decorum said:


> I have watched from a distance as couples worked out their reconciliation.
> 
> I have no doubt that it is worth it to them, but I/we watch powerlessly to do very much for them.
> 
> ...


Here is what I posted. Does this sound like I "have" the answers?

But I appreciate the questions, I have never heard them put better.

I wish you well.

Take care!


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I am one who has stayed with the betrayer. I stay for a few reasons.
> 1. Better the devil you know than one you don't.
> 2. The cost of the fall out in terms of suffering for our kids; and if you have a lovely home and life, it's hard to turn your back on all that.
> 3. Fear of the unknown. Weakness in other words.
> ...


BetrayedAgain7, Wonderful, and a very thoughtful answer. I find it encouraging that it is this way with the two of you, and I am glad.

Plato quotes Socrates as saying "the life which is unexamined is not worth living"

There is no way to "take hold" of life without knowing why you are doing what you are doing.

Your experience is one that I would point to as having a real shot at working, I would love to hear more as the two of you work it out.

Thank you for sharing that!
Take care!


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Decorum said:


> Why should I reconcile?
> 
> I have seen your tears and heard your pleading, you want to try and save this marriage. Why now?
> 
> ...


:iagree:

This is one of the best summaries for a BS that I have read.

Hopefully it will be read by those that need to understand the message.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Decorum said:


> The very act of holding onto the one you love, in light of their betrayal, ensnares you to the pain you long to be free of.


It is indeed a catch 22 and it can rip your heart out. While my wife's and my reconciliation was the most emotionally tormenting period of my life, looking back it was also my proudest too. For both of us. When we talk about that time, and we rarely do, it is with the knowledge we beat the odds. We pride ourselves that we did something that many had failed at. And it did make us stronger as a couple.

Yes, initially I followed my heart and made all the same mistakes most make in the early days after D-Day. The transition from being completely out of control of your marriage's destiny to gaining the upper hand in recovering it is long and painful. It was by trial and error that I found my way back to it. Once I regained control and understood how and how long it was going to take to complete recovery, the emotional aspect of it lessened considerably. I could concentrate on the long game and not worry too much that I was in love with a woman who did not love me, did not desire me and was too afraid to take the emotional risk to open back up to me. We had stabilized the marriage and now it was a matter of time for her to bring down the emotional wall she had built between us. It took three and a half years to get from D-Day to full recovery. Was it difficult, yes. Was it worth it, hell yes!


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Great thread. Thanks for sharing.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Amplexor said:


> It is indeed a catch 22 and it can rip your heart out. While my wife's and my reconciliation was the most emotionally tormenting period of my life, looking back it was also my proudest too. For both of us. When we talk about that time, and we rarely do, it is with the knowledge we beat the odds. We pride ourselves that we did something that many had failed at. And it did make us stronger as a couple.
> 
> Yes, initially I followed my heart and made all the same mistakes most make in the early days after D-Day. The transition from being completely out of control of your marriage's destiny to gaining the upper hand in recovering it is long and painful. It was by trial and error that I found my way back to it. Once I regained control and understood how and how long it was going to take to complete recovery, the emotional aspect of it lessened considerably. I could concentrate on the long game and not worry too much that I was in love with a woman who did not love me, did not desire me and was too afraid to take the emotional risk to open back up to me. *We had stabilized the marriage and now it was a matter of time for her to bring down the emotional wall she had built between us. It took three and a half years to get from D-Day to full recovery. Was it difficult, yes. Was it worth it, hell yes!*


A resounding testimony, I did not know your story.
I deeply respect what you have done.

Bringing "down the emotional walls", how often do we hear a wife (WS or BS) wonder if the feelings will ever come back.

Sometimes you will hear them say "I really never was attracted to him or I never really loved him"

I think sometimes they are not being honest with themselves (i.e. The walls are up) other times I think they are just so broken that using someone else felt ok to them at the time.

But I love this,


Amplexor said:


> *Was it difficult, yes. Was it worth it, hell yes!*


Thanks Amp.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/1383-when-enough-enough.html


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## Robsia (Mar 11, 2013)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I am one who has stayed with the betrayer. I stay for a few reasons.
> 1. Better the devil you know than one you don't.
> 2. The cost of the fall out in terms of suffering for our kids; and if you have a lovely home and life, it's hard to turn your back on all that.
> 3. Fear of the unknown. Weakness in other words.
> ...


Right now, I'm not getting number four.

Why am I staying??


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Robsia said:


> Right now, I'm not getting number four.
> 
> Why am I staying??


That is hearbreaking.

1-3 must be the reasons. Start working on a plan to become independent.


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## Robsia (Mar 11, 2013)

Lovemytruck said:


> That is hearbreaking.
> 
> 1-3 must be the reasons. Start working on a plan to become independent.


I think it's 1 and 3.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

I totally agree with Decorum and other skeptics of R. Been there, done that multiple times, will never walk down the same road in a million years. I am yet to see a successful R in real life. BS(s) I have seen so far in R, do it either for children or social reasons. I am not going to believe in R until and unless I see at least one in real life.

R that stems from the concept of love in a romantic sense is almost certainly going to fail. Romantic love in our times is considered a pre-condition of commitment. But, commitment should be something different. If you feel romantic love towards someone then you can continue being in that state without going through the commitment state. That means you are still free to be romantic to as many people as you like without committing to any particular one. But once you commit to a person, it most certainly has to come from a different place- may it be faith, respect, or trust.

And this is why I am a big skeptic of R. If a commitment is broken, then just returning the romantic feeling will not restore it, since commitment comes from someplace else. So no amount of hysterical bonding can bring something back which was not there to begin with.

I don't want to undermine the effort of anyone going through R, or dissuade anyone in future. My observations come from my own perspective, and some extensive thinking I did over the past 10 months about love, commitment, and relationship.

Thanks for putting up with my ramblings.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Lovemytruck said:


> That is hearbreaking.
> 
> 1-3 must be the reasons. Start working on a plan to become independent.


It is heartbreaking.

There are no "pat" answers, that much is clear.

Lovemytruck's answer strikes me as a good one.

Robsia, at least you are being honest with yourself. If I understand anything from my experience (not with infidelity, but with abuse) then I certainly understand weakness.

LMT's answer does not mean prepare to leave (this is how I take it) but work on growth in this area, make a plan.

You may find that as you do and your husband recognizes it, the remorse may set in as he realizes that one day you will not be afraid to make it without him.

Altruism not withstanding, people in general are motivate by two things (based on self interest, which is not necessarily a bad thing),

1.The fear of loss
2.The desire for gain

For example you may desire to gain more confidence and independence, that would be good.

It may be that your husband is polarized because neither of these are acting upon him inside of your relationship.

I wish you well, and I would love to know if you have any breakthroughs.

Take care!


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

I'm attempting R, and I can tell you that I wouldn't trade this for 'kicking her to the curb'... You can call me a sap, but at the end of the day I can hold my head high knowing that even though my WS shat all over me, I took the high road and knocked her crazy ass out of her deluded state and brought her back to reality, where she's now making an effort to change her life. She's lost her old job, old friends, has been reading self help books and doing lots of #4... She thanks me every morning for giving her one more day with me, then tells me how sorry she is for disrespecting me and other things that are good for a BS to hear.. but it gives me some closure where even if the R doesn't work out, I know I gave it my best. I'll feel better either way that I helped her understand what she really did.. so she can live a better life by not gas-lighting herself and blaming the devil for her problems. I love her, and want her to not be a loser in life.

My point.. every 'successful' (attempt at)R, might not end in R.. it could end in D, but the couple might have learned something in the process.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Decorum said:


> It is heartbreaking.
> 
> There are no "pat" answers, that much is clear.
> 
> ...


I am amazed at the clarity Decorum has been writing today!

Exactly my point for Robsia! I wish I could have written it this well.

Confidence is sexy. It is a little scary for the spouse. They have a challenge when you look confident in yourself. He will start looking at the losses and gains that Decorum mentioned.

Independence is a combination of confidence, and the ability to take care of your needs. 

Geez, I sound like Athol Kay.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

life101 said:


> I totally agree with Decorum and other skeptics of R. Been there, done that multiple times, will never walk down the same road in a million years. I am yet to see a successful R in real life. BS(s) I have seen so far in R, do it either for children or social reasons. I am not going to believe in R until and unless I see at least one in real life.
> 
> R that stems from the concept of love in a romantic sense is almost certainly going to fail. Romantic love in our times is considered a pre-condition of commitment. But, commitment should be something different. If you feel romantic love towards someone then you can continue being in that state without going through the commitment state. That means you are still free to be romantic to as many people as you like without committing to any particular one. But once you commit to a person, it most certainly has to come from a different place- may it be faith, respect, or trust.
> 
> ...


Not rambling at all, I think its a rather cogent point.

To be clear, I have seen reconciliation work, as I mentioned in a previous post, my younger sister has made it work with her wayward husband who had a long term affair with a separate home and pictures on the wall, the whole enchiladas.

Its been 20 years now for them. I wish I had known about TAM then.

I believe there are some examples here Amplexor being one of them.

Btw, success stories would be a great thread, that should be a sticky, 

Having said that, I just want people to go in with their eyes open.

Your experience is the nightmare scenario, I admire you for trying and I appreciate your insight.

I hope no one is offended, but I think for reconciliation to work the WS deep down has to be a certain quality of person that can as you say learn from their bad choices and recommit.

I really like the distinction you made of doing it for romantic reasons verses understanding what it takes to make a relationship work.

I hope any BS considering R will take your words to heart.

Take care!


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

russell28 said:


> I'm attempting R, and I can tell you that I wouldn't trade this for 'kicking her to the curb'... You can call me a sap, but at the end of the day I can hold my head high knowing that even though my WS shat all over me, I took the high road and knocked her crazy ass out of her deluded state and brought her back to reality, where she's now making an effort to change her life. She's lost her old job, old friends, has been reading self help books and doing lots of #4... She thanks me every morning for giving her one more day with me, then tells me how sorry she is for disrespecting me and other things that are good for a BS to hear.. but it gives me some closure where even if the R doesn't work out, I know I gave it my best. I'll feel better either way that I helped her understand what she really did.. so she can live a better life by not gas-lighting herself and blaming the devil for her problems. I love her, and want her to not be a loser in life.
> 
> My point.. every 'successful' (attempt at)R, might not end in R.. it could end in D, but the couple might have learned something in the process.


You sir have an amazing attitude!

It shows a great strength of character.

Thank you for you post.

Take care!


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

russell28 said:


> I'm attempting R, and I can tell you that I wouldn't trade this for 'kicking her to the curb'... You can call me a sap, but at the end of the day I can hold my head high knowing that even though my WS shat all over me, I took the high road and knocked her crazy ass out of her deluded state and brought her back to reality, where she's now making an effort to change her life. She's lost her old job, old friends, has been reading self help books and doing lots of #4... She thanks me every morning for giving her one more day with me, then tells me how sorry she is for disrespecting me and other things that are good for a BS to hear.. but it gives me some closure where even if the R doesn't work out, I know I gave it my best. I'll feel better either way that I helped her understand what she really did.. so she can live a better life by not gas-lighting herself and blaming the devil for her problems. I love her, and want her to not be a loser in life.
> 
> My point.. every 'successful' (attempt at)R, might not end in R.. it could end in D, but the couple might have learned something in the process.


This thread is full of gems. I like this one too! :iagree:

Russell, your choice was similar to mine. I ate several sh!t sandwiches to make certain I didn't have any regrets. The point came where I decided D was better than R. The sh!t sandwiches have long since past, and I feel good about my decision to D a couple of years ago.

There is a point that the "hair of the dog" gets old. As a dog person, I like the analogy of the thread. I say all dogs will break your heart; some sooner, some later. 

It is interesting to see all of the unique people, complex issues, and different approaches to problems. I feel for those that are still is limbo, denial, or just plain hurt. It really can not be comprehended until you go through it.

Kudos to the help that TAM brings. Bless those that keep trying to cope.


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## Robsia (Mar 11, 2013)

I find that, instead of getting closer, if I become more confident, my WH backs away. When we talk about it he says it' because he can't believe that I would actually want anything to do with him after what he's done, and so he backs away from me for self-preservation, in a pre-emptive sort of way.

I don't know what to do about that. If he backs away from me, I interpret that as him not being really that bothered about our R, so I back away from him, and we just get further and further apart.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Robsia said:


> I find that, instead of getting closer, if I become more confident, my WH backs away. When we talk about it he says it' because he can't believe that I would actually want anything to do with him after what he's done, and so he backs away from me for self-preservation, in a pre-emptive sort of way.
> 
> I don't know what to do about that. If he backs away from me, I interpret that as him not being really that bothered about our R, so I back away from him, and we just get further and further apart.


Interesting, I'll have to think on that a bit.

It sounds like that self-doubt could have been a component of "WHY" he cheated. Does he tend to sabotage his own success in other areas also.

Some people would rather fail up front than be seen trying and failing.

Would he be willing to address this in counseling?

Doubt is a terrible bondage!

He may never be free to truly love until he is willing to try and fail.

Many times in my own life I will ask, "what is the worst thing that can happen?", then I will choose that if it does I will deal with it.

I have many times found the strength to do the right thing this way.

Take care!


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

GreenThumb said:


> BP-
> 
> Can you clarify for me? This seems like a "blanket" statement, so I'd like to know how one attempts reconciliation with a WS foolishly.


It has been my experience that the BS takes back the WS immediately and then tries to work it out while the magnitude is still trickling in, the pain and anguish is so fresh they can hardly think, there is often pressure from the WS along with mitigating lies to lessen the damage.... All of this creates barriers for effective communication and giving the BS a chance to breathe.

I prefer a separation period for the BS to get over the initial shock and pain, gather their thoughts, assess the whole situation and then move forward with first getting the whole truth, maybe some counseling... and then setting a time table and meeting some reasonable demands (having the whole truth, no contact letters, notifying the spouse of the other person, STD test...) before living together again and attempting reconciliation together. A smooth transition.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> I certainly believe that's the case. That's why I recommend leaving the cheater and working on yourself. Once you feel you are better you can try and reconcile. If the cheater is truly remorseful, they'll wait; faithfully. If they don't wait, then they weren't remorseful and the betrayed is better off without them.


This is actually really good advice. 

But I was in so much pain during d day and for the following few weeks, that I was really in no position to be making decisions like this. I was so shattered, I was just not strong enough. 

We reconciled, went through the hysterical bonding and all that and it worked. Now we have been rebonded and he is totally remorseful and utterly contrite. But it would have been really beneficial to me, so I wish that I had been strong enough to spend a time a part from him and found the strength to do exactly what you say.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

GreenThumb said:


> Sending my best wishes to you and yours.


Thank you! Same to you!


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Do you think reconciliation hinders the healing process?


False R- absolutely.

True R... perhaps that is situational.

Bias admission- just my thoughts as I have no real R experience.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Robsia said:


> I find that, instead of getting closer, if I become more confident, my WH backs away. When we talk about it he says it' because he can't believe that I would actually want anything to do with him after what he's done, and so he backs away from me for self-preservation, in a pre-emptive sort of way.
> 
> I don't know what to do about that. If he backs away from me, I interpret that as him not being really that bothered about our R, so I back away from him, and we just get further and further apart.


Robsia, I dont know if you will be back to see this.
I tried to catch up a bit on your goings on from the reconciliation thread.

There is talk of personality disorders and abuse, I noted that CM chimed in as well.

I normally refrain from offering an opinion or advice when any kind of abuse is involved, I just don't feel adequate beyond saying that NO ONE should put up with abuse, neglect or disrespect.

But I know that in your heart you want to try and work it out and I feel genuine compassion for you in that, and I hope you can find a way.

That said, any homebrew advice I offer should be taken with a pinch of salt, so I will offer this from having read some of your posts.

Your husband may be a quintessential manipulator and his withdrawal when you rise to independence might just be a well played game of cat and mouse.

Its effective because you back off.

When he says that he does not feel worthy, he is telling the truth. He knows that the lack of kindness, and outright neglect, abuse, and disrespect he shows would be unacceptable to someone whom he cannot control.

I also have a feeling (I cant pin it down) that he knows what he is doing is wrong and believes he cannot change (which is NOT true!), but in reality he just does not want to face it.

It may be that you will have to assert your value and independence, let it come to a head, and see if there are any pieces to pick up and put back together.

Robsia,
This is what I would say to a friend who gave me an idea that something like this was going on. Its totally your call and I would respect whatever decision you make.

I realize that it is easily said, but that is why we ask others who are not in the middle of what we are going through.

Just a different perspective.

I really wish you well. Please keep in touch!

Take care!


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Decorum said:


> BetrayedAgain7
> Your experience is one that I would point to as having a real shot at working, I would love to hear more as the two of you work it out.
> 
> Thank you for sharing that!
> Take care!


Thank you so much for posing it! It made me think deeply of my motivations for R. 

Things are really good between us now. We never let anything slide or rug sweep the slightest little "problem" that one of us may have.

I have to say though that without his absolute 100% effort and contrition it would not work. It could not. Because even though he is doing all the "right" things, my trust has been broken and that will probably take years to rebuild, if it EVER does, that is. I don't know. Its hard to live with to be honest.
Not being able to trust your partner is horrible. 

Without his 100% effort and his complete regret and remorse in what he has done to us, I would not be able to live with the overwhelming distrust that that would engender in me. If ever I saw in the slightest way by his actions and words, that he did not have complete remorse and regret and an almost desperate need to reconcile with me then it would be way to difficult to live with that distrust. I just couldn't do it.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

I am happy and sad for you beyond words.

I believe that if you two continue like this together, then you will have beauty for ashes and the oil of joy for mourning, and a life message that can encourage many others.

Take care!


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> This is actually really good advice.


Thanks for saying that. Most people here not only disagree with me on this but I get crap for it. I think that getting away from the cheater and showing them you don't need them is the best thing you can do for yourself. The decision to reconcile should be made from a position of personal strength, not confusion and weakness and should be based on what benefits you, the betrayed. The truly remorseful will understand that.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

The Middleman,

Your idea of seperation probably would be much more effective than what most of us do/did. It really is the best form of the popular "180" concept. IMO.

My exWW had separated after I blew up when I first found an email indicating that she was deep into an EA. I actually lived with her parents for 5 weeks. Lol! They offered, and I really had good relations with them. She finally confessed the PA AFTER I had separated and told her that I was going to find my own place. She knew that the gig was up for me, and I was telling her it would be over.

In hind-sight, I should have followed through with the separation after learning of the PA. It would have been easier for us to move forward. However, I also feel that the time I hurt during the R was good for me in the long run. It help erase regrets when the D was chosen. R would have been more meaningful if she would have physically seperated after learning about the PA. Stupid me. I moved home when I discovered the PA thinking that I finally could trust her again.

Hair of the dog. 

If we were not so devastated on d-day, it would make good sense to separate. My problem was that I deeply loved the "dog." She was my usual source of comfort inspite of the pain. That is the catch 22 for the newly betrayed. It takes time to find new ways/people to bouy yourself when a support system is needed.

Robsia, I think that is part of the reason you need to work on independence. It is for you, not necessarily to win him back, or D. It will open the door for you to do what is best for the long run. You might find yourself growing to the point you don't feel hurt when he responds in negative ways.

Decorum really nailed it in my opinion.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Lovemytruck said:


> I am amazed at the clarity Decorum has been writing today!
> 
> Exactly my point for Robsia! I wish I could have written it this well.
> 
> ...


I am never amazed at Decorum's clarity I always expect it
This is what he does.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> I certainly believe that's the case. That's why I recommend leaving the cheater and working on yourself. Once you feel you are better you can try and reconcile. If the cheater is truly remorseful, they'll wait; faithfully. If they don't wait, then they weren't remorseful and the betrayed is better off without them.


If I could I would like this post 1000+!


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

A trial separation is, I believe, a Bad Idea if children are involved.

I have seen reconciliations 'work' in my wider life; I have also seen both husbands and wives live with known, sometimes repeated, infidelity. In some cases this has caused untold misery, in others - not.

Not much more to add except to say there have been some great posts in this thread.

Reconciliation is very, very, hard.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Since you guys have given this a bump. 

I have been wanting to add another Catch22 for reconciliation.

This is not a problem in the BS's emotional thinking but a problem in the WS's thinking that affects the BS.

Something which someone considering reconciliation should understand.

It is an issue in a EA.

(Its similar to what happens in a PA, but in a different way for a PA, PEA drugs, and missing the relationship with the AP, the excitement, longing for the AP, etc.).

I just find it ironic, that a person when confronted about an EA, will struggle more (More in that it will increase her desire and enslave her more), even be more desperate, because it did not progress to a PA. How does one ever get past this?

You can see it on TAM all the time.

Unfulfilled desire is a terrible master!

If you step in the bear trap prepare to be stuck and hurting!

Livingwell said it well, so in a minor breach of protocol I'm gonna cross post it here, :smthumbup:



Decorum said:


> livinfree said:
> 
> 
> > An unconsummated EA will never leave the WW mind.
> ...


"An unconsummated EA will never leave the WW mind."

It's such a screwed up place to be.

I hope this helps someone, Take care!


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

One of the early threads I read on TAM was Tears thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/52532-i-cheated-my-husband-left.html

It was a troubling and haunting situation.

She followed a player like a lamb to the slaughter.
I believe this was completely out of character for her.

Then immediately confessed it to her husband when he came home.

Ultimately it costs her, her marriage and her family. It is very sad and I feel genuine compassion for Tears. I hoped for reconciliation.

I have wanted to understand how this could happen my whole time on TAM. I really didn't want to believe it was possible.

The answer I arrived at is simpler that I thought, but I have also upped my knowledge base having read many threads as well.

A woman crosses a boundary into flirting because she , liked the attention, was flattered, enjoyed the excitement, pick a reason, etc.

Flirting is mating behavior!

Yep, its mating behavior, to establish sexual compatibly and consent, once established its very hard to resist.

Mating behavior leads to mating!

I must be a rocket scientist. :rofl:


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

There is no medicine for stupidity. Pity doesn't condone cowardice.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Absolutely correct. Ill take my T shirt in a large. I would like the bottom saying on the back, Thx ha ha ha

What my kids use to say when they were playing basketball, 

"You posturized it"


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

My reconciliation has been weird. 2+ years out now, and I feel it’s been in 2 distinct rounds.

Round 1 was from May 2011 until October 2012, and it turned out to be unsuccessful, unbeknownst to me. Went to counseling for a few months in Aug-October of 2011. We had the typical roller coaster, then settled in for what I thought was a smoother ride until I found out she broke NC and had been talking with the OM for 6 months. I was closer to divorcing my wife in Sept/Oct of last year then I was on the original DDay. Decided to give her one final chance.

Round 2 has been going since October of 2012. New MC in Nov/Dec – much better. Wife made some headway with her thought processes, even recommended our MC as an IC to a friend of hers. Time will tell if Round 2 ends in success, but so far it’s been excellent and I’m glad I did it.

The issue with my wife’s breaking the NC before, was that she got to the point where she felt she could simply be friends with him again without any danger of romance. I actually experimented with allowing transparent email conversations for a few weeks – and then realized how painful it was for me, and that I was playing with fire. So I had to squash it.

I still don’t know what will happen. Wife said she would never go behind my back again, and if she felt the need to re-establish her friendship with the OM again, she would straight up tell me. They were platonic friends for 20 years before her brief EA with him. She still feels it was a simple error in judgment and that neither of them have any interest in doing that again. She feels the lifetime ban on their friendship is too harsh, given they never acted on any feelings. 

We almost never discuss it anymore because she knows where I stand on it. And our life together is very good now in Round 2 – better than ever, so she doesn’t want to risk losing that. She views it as a costly error- she’s mad at herself but also mad I am holding my ground on NC. But she’d rather keep our life together then keep their friendship, so we carry on in this state until something drastic happens I guess.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Gabriel said:


> The issue with my wife’s breaking the NC before, was that she got to the point where she felt she could simply be friends with him again without any danger of romance.


Almost verbatim to my wife's thought process when NC was broken.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Decorum said:


> One of the early threads I read on TAM was Tears thread.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/52532-i-cheated-my-husband-left.html
> 
> ...


Nice post! I agree. :iagree:

I often wondered about the ease that many people have in sliding into cheating. My feeling is some women are very naive to the their own lack of boundries. Most men obviously want to "get off" physically, or feed their ego.

It seems that only natural solution to breaking the cycle for this is fear. Fear that their comfort and security will be smashed.

Fear is diminished if they believe the AP has the money, devotion, excitement, etc. to replace the BS.

The more I read and experience, the more I realize how most people live by their own desires instead of the Golden Rule.

A rude awakening for many of us.

The hair of the dog is that we want back into this crazy cycle. Why would we want to R? Why would we want to marry for a second, third, fourth, time?

We hope that the future will be better than the past. Our hopes are always at the feet of our spouse in a marriage.

That said, I am happy to be married again. Lol!


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> My reconciliation has been weird. 2+ years out now, and I feel it’s been in 2 distinct rounds.
> 
> Round 1 was from May 2011 until October 2012, and it turned out to be unsuccessful, unbeknownst to me. Went to counseling for a few months in Aug-October of 2011. We had the typical roller coaster, then settled in for what I thought was a smoother ride until I found out she broke NC and had been talking with the OM for 6 months. I was closer to divorcing my wife in Sept/Oct of last year then I was on the original DDay. Decided to give her one final chance.
> 
> ...


It seems, even in successful reconciliations, that NC is broken at least once.

That said, HOLD YOUR GROUND on NC with that friend forever (just my opinion) I would NEVER approve. SHE had the benefit of the doubt for 20 years, she has removed any doubt.

I think that is the majority opinion so don't be talked out of it, and don't go to sleep on this one.

I hate to put it this way but I would say to her, "Its clear to me that if anything ever went south in our relationship that you would go running straight to him". Obviously if she is willing to deceive you and risk her marriage there is a very strong connection with Om. She is still in the fog.

Stay strong and keep the connection with her, I really wish you well.

Take care!


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Decorum said:


> "An unconsummated EA will never leave the WW mind."
> 
> It's such a screwed up place to be.
> 
> I hope this helps someone, Take care!


I just wanted to say, this is not always the case. My EAs were unconsummated, but none of those people remain in my mind now - what remains is shame and regret that I betrayed my partner, put her through such grief, and very nearly lost her forever. I'm very grateful that we are now in R and back together.

P.S. I never broke NC.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Gabriel said:


> I still don’t know what will happen. Wife said she would never go behind my back again, and if she felt the need to re-establish her friendship with the OM again, she would straight up tell me. They were platonic friends for 20 years before her brief EA with him. She still feels it was a simple error in judgment and that neither of them have any interest in doing that again. She feels the lifetime ban on their friendship is too harsh, given they never acted on any feelings.


No, this is way too dangerous. She has to understand that she can never go back now that she has had an EA with him. That friendship is toast. Ruined. She needs to just sever it emotionally and forget it. (I'm a former wayward - familiar with the friendship-sliding-into-EA-territory situation.)

She would just _tell_ if you she felt she _needed_ to reestablish her relationship with him? That strikes me as high-handed and nervy. I do not think she fully understands the gravity of the situation and the possible repercussions. How is having an EA not acting on any feelings? :scratchhead:



Gabriel said:


> We almost never discuss it anymore because she knows where I stand on it. And our life together is very good now in Round 2 – better than ever, so she doesn’t want to risk losing that. She views it as a costly error- she’s mad at herself but also mad I am holding my ground on NC. But she’d rather keep our life together then keep their friendship, so we carry on in this state until something drastic happens I guess.


She has absolutely no right to be angry at you. She's getting off lightly, if anything, and she ought to be profoundly grateful for that. It seems like she does want to risk losing what she has with you from what you've relayed of her attitude about things. Just my two cents.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Soulpotato,

I have followed your story in the reconciliation thread, ( I don't post there much) I am glad for you.

My comments above were generalizations from my own observations, but I am glad you are living better than that.

I have seen some partners who have strayed really struggle with getting the other person out of their mind, (Annie ash comes to mind) I wish I knew a way to make it easier.

I don't think its always just a lack of remorsefulness, sometimes its unmet or un-meetable needs.

Why/how do you think you were able to move past that? Maybe it was more of a fantasy? I would love to hear from you on that.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Steve Austin, astronaut. A man barely alive. Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world's first bionic man. Steve Austin will be that man. Better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster.

Some of us didn't let go of that food. Instead we knawed it off and still feel the residual hurt. But we rebuilt. Learn from the monkey trap.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Amplexor said:


> Almost verbatim to my wife's thought process when NC was broken.


Some women are just terminally naive when it comes to men. They just can't understand why they can't be "just friends." That said they all seem to admit that they love the attention they get from their "just friends." Its that dichotomy of thought patterns that I can't seem to grasp.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> I just wanted to say, this is not always the case. My EAs were unconsummated, but none of those people remain in my mind now - what remains is shame and regret that I betrayed my partner, put her through such grief, and very nearly lost her forever. I'm very grateful that we are now in R and back together.
> 
> P.S. I never broke NC.


Maybe the difference is remorse vs. regret. Obviously you are remorseful.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> The issue with my wife’s breaking the NC before, was that she got to the point where *she felt she could simply be friends *with him again without any danger of romance. I actually experimented with allowing transparent email conversations for a few weeks – and then realized how painful it was for me, and that *I was playing with fire*. So I had to squash it.
> 
> *I still don’t know what will happen*. *Wife said she would never go behind my back again*, and if she felt the need to re-establish her friendship with the OM again, she would straight up tell me. They were platonic friends for 20 years before her brief EA with him. * She still feels it was a simple error in judgment *and that neither of them have any interest in doing that again. *She feels the lifetime ban on their friendship is too harsh,* given they never acted on any feelings.
> 
> We almost never discuss it anymore because she knows where I stand on it. And our life together is very good now in Round 2 – better than ever, so *she doesn’t want to risk losing that*. She views it as a costly error- she’s mad at herself but also mad I am holding my ground on NC. But *she’d rather keep our life together then keep their friendship*, so we carry on in this state until something drastic happens I guess.


This is a classic post of the dilemma for a BS-WS relationship. 

More hair of the dog.

The bolded parts show that you now have to trust her, she doesn't have good boundries, she doesn't understand the deep pain she caused, and that she is only in compliance because of her fear of losing something.

It really amazes me how a WS can't place themselves in the BS's shoes.

It seems more pronounced in WSs that are given a second chance than in those who suffer the fate of their betrayal.

Gabriel,
The post is quoted to illustrate my opinion only. I am very happy to know that you are working through a difficult time with good success.

Kudos to those WS that do get it. I see it in most of the WS that are regulars here on TAM. It is too bad that many WSs never seek anything within themselves to improve.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

bfree said:


> Some women are just terminally naive when it comes to men. They just can't understand why they can't be "just friends." That said they all seem to admit that they love the attention they get from their "just friends." Its that dichotomy of thought patterns that I can't seem to grasp.


:iagree:

I saw this in my exWW, and in my current wife.

It seems, knock on wood, that the difference is your reaction to it.

Obviously I feel that my current wife is trustworthy, or I would not have married her, however, my experience has taught me to not look the other way.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Decorum said:


> Soulpotato,
> 
> I have followed your story in the reconciliation thread, ( I don't post there much) I am glad for you.


I had no idea! Thank you very much. 



Decorum said:


> My comments above were generalizations from my own observations, but I am glad you are living better than that.


I'm certainly trying.  I just wanted to chime in to let people know that it doesn't have to always be the case.



Decorum said:


> I have seen some partners who have strayed really struggle with getting the other person out of their mind, (Annie ash comes to mind) I wish I knew a way to make it easier.
> 
> I don't think its always just a lack of remorsefulness, sometimes its unmet or un-meetable needs.
> 
> Why/how do you think you were able to move past that? Maybe it was more of a fantasy? I would love to hear from you on that.


I agree. I think there are definitely reasons that people struggle - probably because they're addicted to some part of that interaction or the feeling feed. The reasons that it happened (inside of the wayward) need to be addressed and worked on before further action can be taken, I think.

It was very much a fantasy situation for me, yes - trying to escape reality. My EAs started as friendships while I was trying to compensate for and cope with issues in my long-term relationship with GF (I'm lacking various useful skills and structures, which I'm remedying via therapy). While I was still "foggy", I struggled with letting go of it a lot. (Letting go of "it", not the APs - I just wanted anyone who would fill that emptiness a little/provide an emotional fix, which would allow me to keep going.) 

What really dispersed the fog and sobered me up quickly (like "What the fuvk am I doing?!") was GF moving out of the house - after we'd been separated for a while - and saying that she was done being around me with the way things were. For me, the reality of nearly losing her grounded me faster than anything else. It polarized things for me, made things very clear for me. Even leading up to her moving out, I was realizing on some level that I was using my last active AP as a means to make myself feel better and shield myself from the pain of how bad things were between me and GF at that point. After GF moved out, I was so depressed. Just dead. Nothing made me feel better, nothing could be good or enjoyable anymore. I thought a lot about how things had gone over the years, and what part my behaviors and actions had played in the outcome. Which led to a mini-epiphany, as stupid as that sounds. At that point, I cut off my last AP and started cleaning myself and my life up to make a space (and person) that GF might want to return to. It was very scary for me, because I had to take a big risk without having any "safety nets" set up - a first for me. But as I now know, it's necessary for a healthy, truly intimate relationship with another human being - to be fully present and emotionally available. I'm learning all of these things finally.

I am lucky that GF is someone who can still look at me and see something wonderful and worth the risk despite all the sh!t I brought her. I understand the incredible gift she has given me.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

bfree said:


> Maybe the difference is remorse vs. regret. Obviously you are remorseful.


I wish I'd woken up a lot sooner, though.  When I look back, I can't even relate to myself. I don't understand that person, or why it took so much and so long before I realized that I was destroying GF and our relationship.

It is extremely humbling that despite being aware of my full issue package and how messed up I am, she was willing to take me back and has even started to trust me again. She still tells me that I'm a good person. I don't have the words to describe how much it means to me, so I just cry, LOL. To have her still believe in me and love me so much is both overwhelming and awe-inspiring.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Lovemytruck said:


> This is a classic post of the dilemma for a BS-WS relationship.
> 
> *I agree - you are either willing to live with it, or not. Given my life is very good at the moment, I am willing. Also, my kids are teenagers. So even if I WAS gritting my teeth through this, I would for maybe 3-4 more years. As it is, we will undergo a big test at that time.*
> 
> ...


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> I wish I'd woken up a lot sooner, though.  When I look back, I can't even relate to myself. I don't understand that person, or why it took so much and so long before I realized that I was destroying GF and our relationship.
> 
> It is extremely humbling that despite being aware of my full issue package and how messed up I am, she was willing to take me back and has even started to trust me again. She still tells me that I'm a good person. I don't have the words to describe how much it means to me, so I just cry, LOL. To have her still believe in me and love me so much is both overwhelming and awe-inspiring.


When you posted about how you really opened up to her during a counseling session I have to admit that it got to me. At one time I shared your trust issues from things in my past. It was not easy to learn to trust others and even harder to trust those closest to me with my feelings. But I found that opening up really deepened the relationship. Like Decorum I am very happy for you.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

bfree said:


> When you posted about how you really opened up to her during a counseling session I have to admit that it got to me. At one time I shared your trust issues from things in my past. It was not easy to learn to trust others and even harder to trust those closest to me with my feelings. But I found that opening up really deepened the relationship. Like Decorum I am very happy for you.


Thank you for sharing that. Trust issues are a huge hindrance, and very difficult to overcome. But in the end I guess there's no alternative but to do so, because the casualties are unacceptable. That's what I want - a deeper relationship with GF without getting in my own way. IC and TAM are both helping me achieve that goal.  Thank you, bfree. I hope things are going well for you and yours.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> While I was still "foggy", I struggled with letting go of it a lot. (Letting go of "it", not the APs - I just wanted anyone who would fill that emptiness a little/provide an emotional fix, which would allow me to keep going.)
> 
> *"IT" I think that is such an important thing to realize, it seems to me that is the only way to be objective in a very emotion filled situation*
> 
> ...


*I wish every betrayed partner could read this, it was the action she took that really brought you out of your fog, it's counterintuitive but it's as true blue as the moon.

You have a sweet disposition Soulpotato, but why "Potato"? :scratchhead: Because its a staple of life? Soul-life?

Take care!*


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Decorum said:


> I wish every betrayed partner could read this, it was the action she took that really brought you out of your fog, it's counterintuitive but it's as true blue as the moon.


Yes. I wasn't hearing her before that (when she said she wasn't happy about my emotional investment in others). She says that she wishes she would have known that leaving would have worked as she'd have done it sooner! But she was so terrified of losing me that she hung on until she couldn't stand it anymore.  Both of us wish that such extremes hadn't been necessary, but I was so busy being disconnected and escaping from everything that probably nothing less than that would have snapped me out of it.

Betrayed partners have more power than they think. I know some are afraid to leave, but I think they would be surprised by what would happen if they did (provided their wayward was still invested).



Decorum said:


> You have a sweet disposition Soulpotato, but why "Potato"? :scratchhead: Because its a staple of life? Soul-life?
> 
> Take care!


Thank you!  LOL!! That's a wonderful interpretation, and far more flattering than what I was thinking when I chose it. I was thinking of how people are sometimes compared to potatoes in such a way as to say that the person is inert - and felt that way about my soul at that time - so it was a bit of a jab at myself. Not to mention, potatoes are bland and white inside, and will take on much of the flavor of whatever you season or cook them with. Jab two! Haha.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Decorum said:


> *I wish every betrayed partner could read this, it was the action she took that really brought you out of your fog, it's counterintuitive but it's as true blue as the moon.
> 
> You have a sweet disposition Soulpotato, but why "Potato"? :scratchhead: Because its a staple of life? Soul-life?
> 
> Take care!*


Yes - regarding having the WS "wake up" when they think they are going to lose their spouse....

It's so true. DDay1 I did the blubbering beg and plead thing. Ugh, I still hate myself for it. DDay 2 I didn't speak to her for 3 straight days even in the same house. I got the "I don't know what to say, I just miss you." stuff from her. Then, when I finally said I would leave her if she maintained any contact with the OM, she immediately sent him a "real" NC note. 

Sometimes you have to threaten. Sometimes you have to shut completely off to make them feel the void of your emotional attention.

I've actually pre-planned how I would do this if there ever was a DDay 3. The coldness would be complete. I don't think I would even make eye contact with her ever again.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Gabriel said:


> DDay1 I did the blubbering beg and plead thing. Ugh, I still hate myself for it.



Me too! It's the common reaction. It only serves to empower the WS.


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## JustGrinding (Oct 26, 2012)

bfree said:


> Some women are just terminally naive when it comes to men. They just can't understand why they can't be "just friends." That said they all seem to admit that they love the attention they get from their "just friends." Its that dichotomy of thought patterns that I can't seem to grasp.


You can't grasp it because it's bullspit. Whoever falls for the "naive" act is the one who's naive.

These women know exactly what they're doing and have spent their entire lives snowing men with their fake quizzical stares, furry eyeballs, puppy-like head-****s, and endearing "blonde moments."

They're dumb like a fox. 

Justice is eventually served with the inevitable effects of age and gravity.


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## Robsia (Mar 11, 2013)

Furry eyeballs???


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: The hair of the dog that bit you, a catch 22 in reconciliation.*



Robsia said:


> Furry eyeballs???


Lol


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Yes - regarding having the WS "wake up" when they think they are going to lose their spouse....
> 
> It's so true. DDay1 I did the blubbering beg and plead thing. Ugh, I still hate myself for it. DDay 2 I didn't speak to her for 3 straight days even in the same house. I got the "I don't know what to say, I just miss you." stuff from her. Then, when I finally said I would leave her if she maintained any contact with the OM, she immediately sent him a "real" NC note.
> 
> ...


I have pre-planned my d-day response, if ever needed, with my new wife... file for a divorce.

Too much R makes me old. I can spend my time better by finding an upgrade. 

I went through the same stuff you did in the quote above.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Robsia said:


> Furry eyeballs???


HA HA HA HA HA!

If I merge the two opinions Bfree and JustGrinding I come up with the raw material for a classic affair-compartmentalization.

I'm sure this is often the case, no surprise that it leads to an affair then. 

Its an existing character flaw that defines those cheaters lives even before the affair, in many (seemingly) unrelated areas.

When you meet a woman with honor (as Bfree would say) and integrity they will not fool themselves.

But naiveté exists (that's why we have a word for it) but a wise woman/man will take a warning, learn from it and watch their way!

Fools ignore it and go on to cause much destruction.

Moderators! I want a Smilie with Furry eyeballs!


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## Robsia (Mar 11, 2013)

Please can someone explain furry eyeballs - it's driving me crazy.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Robsia said:


> Please can someone explain furry eyeballs - it's driving me crazy.


I'm thinking its a moist look of interest and vulnerability, kind of puppy dog like, mixed with an obvious willingness to play.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

I would guess furry eyeballs are those with the big dark lashes. They are batted and fluttered to make sure a man knows he is wanted. Just a guess...


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

I can see we are gonna need a furry eyeball thread!

:rofl:

But I'll go with LMT, its mascara thick batting eyelids.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

View attachment 7978


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

Robsia said:


> Please can someone explain furry eyeballs - it's driving me crazy.


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## Robsia (Mar 11, 2013)

Thorburn said:


> View attachment 7978


You're a sick puppy, aren't you?


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## Robsia (Mar 11, 2013)

life101 said:


>


Oh, I SEE - also known as sheep's eyes.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Robsia said:


> Oh, I SEE - also known as sheep's eyes.


Your U.K. is showing... 

Sheep are an entirely different thing out here in the Western U.S. 

I digress, and I will end it there.

Thanks for a good laugh!!!

:rofl:


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

I draw the line at cat pictures.
Its one of the 3 proliffic evls of the internet.

Porn 

Games 

and

Cat pictures!

As far as sheep thats just Baaaaaaaaad!


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Sorry just parking this here, somthing Will Kane posted.



Will_Kane said:


> PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THE BOLDED PARTS.
> 
> _I wish I could claim credit for this masterpiece but I can't. It belongs to very wise member from another website. It should be etched in the minds of every man and woman who has been the victim on infidelity.
> 
> ...


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Yep this one too,

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...learned-about-my-last-relationsh-t-my-ws.html



Miss Taken said:


> MODS,
> Feel free to move this to another section if you find it appropriate.
> 
> _A caveat if you will...
> ...


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> That's why I am such an advocate for a 90 day separation. To clear the mind, step back and see the big picture and make a better decision if one wants to reconcile or not.


I agree that separation is good - true separation. For both parties, actually, not only the betrayed. It gives both people some time and space to reflect and get themselves and their feelings sorted out, and things being truly different facilitates that, if that makes sense. 

Even though GF and I were technically separated before she moved out, it didn't really feel like we were separated because we still did a lot of things together and it still felt the same. Things weren't terribly different, so it was confusing. Basically, "We're separated," just seemed like words to me - I couldn't _feel_ what that meant. The moving out, though - that was crystal clear. That felt like _real_ separation.

I think living separately for some period of time is a very good idea.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Seperation makes the other person realize that you can move on without them.

If you seem like you have no options it can look weak and they can take you for granted.

The tough part is if there will be a division of assets or custody of children involved then leaving may disadvantage whoever leaves from a legal standpoint.

If the partners are married then filing sends a clear message, it takes a while so it can always be called off.

A good hard 180 can make the point as well when combined with working on yourself and establishing a new life without them even in the same house.

But yeah separating physically is strong medicine!


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

I think there can be a taking for granted on both sides. Certainly that has been true in my situation. GF has been realizing and appreciating just how many things I actually did for her when we lived together (and it goes without saying that I've felt the same way).

It's not that I didn't think she had options - she's a very capable, intelligent, and attractive person. It's more that I have trouble visualizing and feeling the reality of something until it happens. Oh, and the fact that our communication totally sucked didn't help anything. Neither one of us knew what was going on emotionally with the other a lot of the time. There were assumptions, misinterpretations, and a lack of sharing on both sides.

That's true, things are certainly more complicated with shared assets and children. I agree that filing in the case of married couples makes a statement, too.

I think a 180 while still living in the same house would be extremely difficult for a betrayed who still had feelings for his/her wayward, but if it can be managed, I guess that could work, too. Going out and having a good time with other people without your wayward will no doubt get to them on some level and send a clear message! They will hate it.  (Speaking from experience, here. Even before I really woke up, seeing GF with other people made me want to punch walls. She said she caught me making a scary face at one of her little friends, LOL.)


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