# Should I ask wife if she is having affair, or find out more first ?



## sfViz

Brief history: My wife of 16 years frequently goes out to California to visit her sisters and help with her aging father. At least that is what I am told, and I believe it 99% of the time. There are some possible signals though that the she is either having a fling / affair with old boyfriends out there, or is planning on leaving. I realize that going out for a week or two at a time is no big deal and frankly I like it that she does this. She does suffer from depression though and refuses to take medication. We have been to couples counseling over the years, but no action or work is actually ever done. 

In the past I have noticed long phone calls with her ex-boyfriends. I asked her about it and she said they were just talking. Nothing else. Fine, I thought. TO BE CLEAR she has had two 50 minute calls to one ex in the past year, and two 2 minute calls to the other ex in a period of a year. The pattern is that she calls one, and then the other. For all I know she is probably calling them to ask them if she thinks I am having an affair or to get the POV on something. I am still suspicious. When I called her out on this same behavior a few years ago, in a couples counseling session, she did stop doing it for ~10 months. If it was more frequent then I would be more concerned. My earlier statement that I think it is "fine" is not correct, if I take the low frequency and her telling me that they stay in contact as old friends, and that both are married, then I did not get too worked up about it.

She just left to go to California to talk to her father about moving into assisted living. She has two sisters that live out there. They also suffer from depression, very poor health, and are unemployed. The father pays their way. They are in their mid-50's. 

Before my wife left on this trip a new cell phone arrived, unannounced. She said her father got it for her since her old phone was not working well. It is an old iPhone. However, this seemed weird to me, since we have our phones together under one family plan. I asked her to work with me to replace her current phone and also find a better plan. That did not happen, and she briefly stated that she had another idea / solution. 

I also noticed, that just before she left she was not wearing her wedding ring! This was a first. I frequently do not wear mine since I do water sports, or if I am doing construction work I take it off. I have been doing both of those the past month, and not wearing my ring. So, ..., on the one hand who am I to complain..?

She has also started working out a lot more, and using dental whitening strips, and just got a haircut right before leaving. 

I am suspicious. I hate doing this (again), however I checked her (old) phone records and sure enough she was calling her old boyfriends again. One of them for multiple hour long calls. I am pretty sure she took the new cell phone with her. If she setup a new account, not with my name on it with her, I cannot see who she is calling.

Our marriage has been very stagnant lately. I would not be surprised if she left the marriage already. I have thought about it too. However, I would want to work on things a bit more, and surely have a discussion about it. I think she has been wanting to leave for a long time (years) and finally decided to do it. If so, that is probably best for her. Although we really did not discuss issues or try...

I feel like I should take some deep breaths, hope for the best, and see how this trip unfolds. She is supposed to be back in 10 days. I did notice she was also packing up some photos of our pets, and asked me for a print of our three dogs (we just lost one of them and it was sad -- we do not have kids).

Should I ask her now, while she is out there, if there anything I should know about, since I notice she left her wedding ring and the new phone is gone and we never switched it out with her existing one?? 

I know these are tell-tale signs of an affair (or problem), new hidden phone (I discovered it), and wedding ring removed. 

Should I find out more before speaking up? I realize there are all kinds of ways to "spy", and I can do that, although deep inside of me I just feel like asking her now -- and yet realize she is already being dishonest, so what should I expect from a direct question to her?


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## MattMatt

She is in communication with former lovers.

She has obtained a burner phone.

She no longer wears her wedding ring.

This is looking bad. 

You need to investigate because the chances are if you ask her outright she may lie and use the gaslighting technique to try and make you think you are imagining things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

I would go with your gut feeling: just ask her. Tell her what you found out, and have noticed.

And, honestly, tell her you are letting her go. Because that, imo, would be the wisest thing to do at this point. And then move on, yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

jld said:


> I would go with your gut feeling: just ask her. Tell her what you found out, and have noticed.
> 
> And, honestly, tell her you are letting her go. Because that, imo, would be the wisest thing to do at this point. And then move on, yourself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


JLD, I can see where you are coming from.

But if the answer she gives is "I am not having an affair" this could be because she is either not having an affair or she is lying.

What would his next step be?

Divorce her with no evidence?

Let it go?

Or investigate further and then make an informed decision based on what he finds out?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lila

sfViz said:


> Our marriage has been very stagnant lately. I would not be surprised if she left the marriage already. I have thought about it too. However, I would want to work on things a bit more, and surely have a discussion about it. I think she has been wanting to leave for a long time (years) and finally decided to do it. If so, that is probably best for her. Although we really did not discuss issues or try...


It sounds like your relationship has been long over but neither of you had felt the need to formally divorce. 

The activities you view as suspicious for an affair could just be her finally making the move to divorce. 

You may want to give it another go but she may feel differently. She may be thinking why bother putting more effort into a marriage that years of marriage counseling couldn't help. 

All this to say that she may be involved in an exit affair but it's moot at this point. Both of you have been considering moving, so just do it.

Eta: Have you posted on TAM before? Your background sounds familiar.

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


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## sfViz

As much as I would like to move out this feeling of limbo and ask her now what is going on, naively thinking I might be able to stop things before they get worst (i.e. control something that is out of my control...), I think I need to get some more evidence. It sucks to be a spy and big brother though...


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## Lostinthought61

Well now your just putting your head in the ground and avoiding the truth.....any chance you can go out there with her? Hire a p.i. Or know someone you can trust to keep any I out for you, so you can get the facts? Something is definitely up.


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## PhillyGuy13

Judging by your tone, it sounds like neither one of you I really into this marriage. I get trying to give it the old college try but why bother? It's pretty clear something is going on. Don't put yourself through all that trying to gather more evidence. 

Her elderly father bought her a new phone? Come on man - the guy needs assisted living but can order a new phone for someone because he finds her current cellular plan unsatisfactory? Not plausible. 

Long calls with old boyfriends that she doesn't even deny or try to hide? Shows how much she gives a damm about you - zero. Oh well now she can hide it- her old man ordered her a new phone.

She's practically admitting she is done with you. Pick up what she's putting down. Divorce her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

MattMatt said:


> JLD, I can see where you are coming from.
> 
> But if the answer she gives is "I am not having an affair" this could be because she is either not having an affair or she is lying.
> 
> What would his next step be?
> 
> Divorce her with no evidence?
> 
> Let it go?
> 
> Or investigate further and then make an informed decision based on what he finds out?


If I were in his position, Matt, I would do what I recommended in my post: tell her what he has already found out, what he has observed in her lately, and that he is letting her go.

If she protests and wants to work on things, then maybe, together, with complete mutually agreed transparency and professional counseling, they might be able to rebuild.

I have to say, though, OP, if I were doing the kind of **** your wife is, my husband would likely have a much more aggressive response. He certainly would not just let me go. He would fight for the marriage. He would show up in CA and be in my face with what he had discovered and he would be confronting those men. No way would he let our marriage go down without a fight. He loves me way too much for that. 

And he would be looking hard at himself, OP, for how he may have unintentionally contributed to my seeking something like that out. Food for thought.

This is all just my opinion. You, of course, must do what you think best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NextTimeAround

MattMatt said:


> JLD, I can see where you are coming from.
> 
> *But if the answer she gives is "I am not having an affair" this could be because she is either not having an affair or she is lying.
> *
> What would his next step be?
> 
> Divorce her with no evidence?
> 
> Let it go?
> 
> Or investigate further and then make an informed decision based on what he finds out?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Reminds of when my (future) husband would insist, with raised voice that "she is JUST a friend."

Without evidence/ detail, there is really nothing more to say or do than accept / reject (divorce in the OP's case).


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## PhillyGuy13

Two years ago you posted similar story, got the same answers:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...terested-her-sisters-than-our-marriage-2.html

How many more years are you going to put up with her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Satya

If she's not doing these things for YOU, there are only two other reasons:

1. Herself
2. Another man


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## manfromlamancha

OK OP, here are my thoughts:

Showing up in CA and getting in her face and confronting these "ex-boyfriends" is all very well but doing this without more evidence is stupid (especially at 50+ years old) - you would be expected to be more prepared.

So yes, snoop, spy, stalk - do whatever it takes to uncover more info and do not dilly dally - do this quickly - time is not on your side. Put a VAR in her car or anywhere else you can catch her talking to people.

Do go to CA and plant VARs there too - also check out the landscape and what is actually going down there.

Do all this without tipping your hand - complete coolness all the way.

Then when you find something - and you will find something (not sure what yet), then decide what you want to do - fight for her, or just let her go etc.

The new phone, the past track record of constantly looking up old boyfriends, the secretive behaviour, the new grooming and clothes etc (and it sounds like lack of intimacy towards you) all are very bad signs! Some of her behaviour in the past has been downright disrespectful too.


Go, go, go!!!!


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## sfViz

I can not go out to California due to other commitments at home. She will be home in 6 days and I will gather more evidence and decide whether to finally call it quits or go back to counseling (does not seem like a good investment at this point). Confused big time right now and also embarrassed this was not dealt with earlier.


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## PhillyGuy13

sfViz said:


> I can not go out to California due to other commitments at home. She will be home in 6 days and I will gather more evidence and decide whether to finally call it quits or go back to counseling (does not seem like a good investment at this point). Confused big time right now and also embarrassed this was not dealt with earlier.


Don't be embarrassed. Nobody ever expects this type of treatment from a spouse. 

I agree not to bother with counseling- and judging from her track record, neither does she.

Is she financially reliant on you? If you were to divorce would you need to provide spousal support? The home was yours before you married, but I assume she has a 50-50 claim to it now? Maybe a permanent separation would be more beneficial financially than a divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sfViz

She was financially reliant on me for 12 or so years of our marriage. I owned the house before the marriage though. I lost my job three years ago and have a very small pension and am slowly starting a new business with minimal cash flow now. When I spoke with an attorney 2 years ago they said that the house would remain mine, however I would have to pay spousal support and that may require selling the house to do so. The past 3 years she has been making 2x my pension, but only 1/3 of what my salary was for the majority of our marriage. Fear of finances is the main reason I have not divorced her, yet. I do not like living this way though, life is too short.


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## jsmart

A hundred % you need to go 007. You should not feel guilty for doing so. You're fighting for your marriage. You have more than enough to warrant a strong suspicion. If you do it right, it won't be long before you get your evidence. 

While you're doing this, I recommend you start to work on yourself. You see all the changes she's making? Middle aged women do that when they're on the prowl or more likely, getting hot for a new love interest. You need to hit the gym, work on your look (clothes, hair, hygiene, ETC) This is not a time to continue stagnating. 

Also, you need to get involved in new interest or hobbies;especially ones that get you to connected with other men. Marriage softens men, turns us into yes men. We think we're making our wife happier by agreeing to everything she wants but all that's happening is she is growing to detest you. No matter they're age, a woman wants a strong man. You've lost touch with your inner warrior. You need to find him because war is already upon you.


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## rockon

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Two years ago you posted similar story, got the same answers:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...terested-her-sisters-than-our-marriage-2.html
> 
> How many more years are you going to put up with her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good catch PhillyGuy13. I was thinking the same thing, I've seen this story before.


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## Nucking Futs

sfViz said:


> She was financially reliant on me for 12 or so years of our marriage. I owned the house before the marriage though. I lost my job three years ago and have a very small pension and am slowly starting a new business with minimal cash flow now. When I spoke with an attorney 2 years ago they said that the house would remain mine, however I would have to pay spousal support and that may require selling the house to do so. The past 3 years she has been making 2x my pension, but only 1/3 of what my salary was for the majority of our marriage. Fear of finances is the main reason I have not divorced her, yet. I do not like living this way though, life is too short.


Get another consultation with another lawyer. If she has had twice your income for the last 3 years the odds are she'll be paying you alimony, not the other way around.

But I note that you said twice your pension, not twice your income. What's the ration between her income and your income?


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## sfViz

Her current salary is 1.2 my pension.


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## 225985

Lila said:


> sfViz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our marriage has been very stagnant lately. I would not be surprised if she left the marriage already. I have thought about it too. However, I would want to work on things a bit more, and surely have a discussion about it. I think she has been wanting to leave for a long time (years) and finally decided to do it. If so, that is probably best for her. Although we really did not discuss issues or try...
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like your relationship has been long over but neither of you had felt the need to formally divorce.
> 
> The activities you view as suspicious for an affair could just be her finally making the move to divorce.
> 
> You may want to give it another go but she may feel differently. She may be thinking why bother putting more effort into a marriage that years of marriage counseling couldn't help.
> 
> All this to say that she may be involved in an exit affair but it's moot at this point. Both of you have been considering moving, so just do it.
> 
> Eta: Have you posted on TAM before? Your background sounds familiar.
> 
> Sent from mobile using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

On TAP, view his profile, then posts, then look under Started. He posted a couple years back about wife spending too much time with sisters on these trips for past 10 years.


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## 225985

jld said:


> MattMatt said:
> 
> 
> 
> JLD, I can see where you are coming from.
> 
> But if the answer she gives is "I am not having an affair" this could be because she is either not having an affair or she is lying.
> 
> What would his next step be?
> 
> Divorce her with no evidence?
> 
> Let it go?
> 
> Or investigate further and then make an informed decision based on what he finds out?
> 
> 
> 
> If I were in his position, Matt, I would do what I recommended in my post: tell her what he has already found out, what he has observed in her lately, and that he is letting her go.
> 
> If she protests and wants to work on things, then maybe, together, with complete mutually agreed transparency and professional counseling, they might be able to rebuild.
> 
> I have to say, though, OP, if I were doing the kind of **** your wife is, my husband would likely have a much more aggressive response. He certainly would not just let me go. He would fight for the marriage. He would show up in CA and be in my face with what he had discovered and he would be confronting those men. No way would he let our marriage go down without a fight. He loves me way too much for that.
> 
> And he would be looking hard at himself, OP, for how he may have unintentionally contributed to my seeking something like that out. Food for thought.
> 
> This is all just my opinion. You, of course, must do what you think best.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

Don't eat bad food. A bad marriage contributes to a bad marriage. It does not contribute to one of them cheating.


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## sfViz

Her income is currently 1.2 times my income


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## honcho

sfViz said:


> She was financially reliant on me for 12 or so years of our marriage. I owned the house before the marriage though. I lost my job three years ago and have a very small pension and am slowly starting a new business with minimal cash flow now. When I spoke with an attorney 2 years ago they said that the house would remain mine, however I would have to pay spousal support and that may require selling the house to do so. The past 3 years she has been making 2x my pension, but only 1/3 of what my salary was for the majority of our marriage. Fear of finances is the main reason I have not divorced her, yet. I do not like living this way though, life is too short.


You should consult a lawyer now and discuss the finances. In many states they look back the last 2 or 3 years at earning to base support. If you lost your job due to corporate downsizing/layoff the earning "potential" rarely gets used in calculations especially if you have started a new business and career. If you lost your job due to fault it's a different matter but this is why you should talk with a lawyer and not rely on info from a couple years ago.

This played out in my divorce as I was earning a great deal more than my ex and she received no alimony at the end.


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## EunuchMonk

Burner phone, in contact with ex, not wearing wedding rings, etc, etc....if an affair isn't happening I'll eat my shoe. I will literally eat my shoe.

The number one persons to cheat with are co-workers but exes come in second. It's too bad your financials are messed up. I know the feels, man. Your plan to watch her when she comes back is good. Will you leave if she is guilty? Because the money, bro, the money....


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## sfViz

It sure does not look good at all... my current plan is to say nothing while she is out in California. Do not tip my hand so to speak. Gather more evidence, especially when she gets back home. Talk to another attorney, then confront her a legal separation or divorce. I sure feel like pulling the plug now, while she is out there, however that would be stupid -- giving her and her cohort time to get a plan together.

This may however not be cheating, it maybe running away, or leaving a bad marriage, and frankly at this point I cannot blame her. We have both been stagnant in actually fixing things, or moving on. 

This will be a long 6 days waiting and waiting, gotta keep busy working out and doing things...


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## Seppuku

IMO spy now, ask questions later. If you ask her now, she will just go to greater lengths to hide what she is doing. The fact that she is doing this all without really hiding means she either thinks you're an idiot or you don't care anyway.

An old iPhone is good (for spying) - if you can, get a backup of her phone, then you can possibly see deleted texts, browsing history, and all kinds of other goodies. What is her current (broken) phone?


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## Emerging Buddhist

Satya said:


> If she's not doing these things for YOU, there are only two other reasons:
> 
> 1. Herself
> 2. Another man


 @Satya, your simple clarity is brilliant.

Either one is going to result in the same outcome.


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## Justinian

sfViz said:


> Brief history:
> 
> Before my wife left on this trip a new cell phone arrived, unannounced ...
> 
> I also noticed, that just before she left she was not wearing her wedding ring! ...
> 
> She has also started working out a lot more, and using dental whitening strips, and just got a haircut right before leaving ...





sfViz said:


> This may however not be cheating, it maybe running away, or leaving a bad marriage, and frankly at this point I cannot blame her. We have both been stagnant in actually fixing things, or moving on.


Sorry to say, her behavior doesn't sound like someone is who is simply "running away".


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## LucasJackson

Right off the bat you say you discover she's having long phone conversations WITH AN EX LOVER and you say fine???!!!???

Why would you say fine? It's not fine. Not fine at all for a married person to be having long phone conversations with ex lovers.

Since you started with that it really doesn't matter where the story goes from there. She's either going to have an affair or is already having one and she has your de facto blessing.


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## jsmart

oh, I skipped right over the part of long convos with an ex. Relationships with an ex get sexual right away because of past familiarity. For you to say "fine," when learning about that tells me you've been a doormat for way to long.

No woman wants a man that tolerates abuse or neglect from her or does the same to her. It sounds like the confidence drop your financial woes have dealt you combined with you not been there for her emotionally, has caused her to either reach out to a man from her past or be susceptible to an interloper. Either way, the damage may be to far gone to salvage this. 

WWs are very prone to believe the future faking of a guy whispering sweet game in her ear. Most of these guys are not really looking to buy the cow. Just want the free milk. When crunch time comes, few want to take on a cheating wife with another man's kids. But in your case, she may still bounce because of your 3 years of floundering financially. She might figure, her chances will be better without the extra dead weight. 

There are quite a few who believe feminist ideas of women expecting men to provide and protect them being a social construct and that women can be the provider and men the nurturer, but you can't undo hundreds of thousands of years of humanoid evolution with a few decades of social engineering.


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## tech-novelist

EunuchMonk said:


> Burner phone, in contact with ex, not wearing wedding rings, etc, etc....if an affair isn't happening I'll eat my shoe. I will literally eat my shoe.
> 
> The number one persons to cheat with are co-workers but exes come in second. It's too bad your financials are messed up. I know the feels, man. Your plan to watch her when she comes back is good. Will you leave if she is guilty? Because the money, bro, the money....


:iagree:


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## EunuchMonk

jsmart said:


> oh, I skipped right over the part of long convos with an ex. Relationships with an ex get sexual right away because of past familiarity. For you to say "fine," when learning about that tells me you've been a doormat for way to long.












Yep.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.


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## TaDor

A single item could be questionable... but there is a whole lot of them combined - that just doesn't look good. 

Rather than spend 6 days waiting, spend them going to lawyer, looking ALL over the house for other things (sexy underwear hidden), look through her things (maybe take a photo before you move them). Check phone records online for the past 6 months. Get you will find her talking/texting while you were asleep - for hours on end, and spending more time doing so than DOING it with you.

Is it safe to gather that her EX lover(s) are in CA?
While I am on good terms with pretty much every girl I had a relationship with (ONS > casual > GF) and have chatted a bit when I run into them IRL "how's it going?" etc. I have a few of their # as have the same group of friends go to same events - but I have NO reason to spend hours talking to any of them. Even after I kicked out my wife some months ago, I didn't try to call them up as past is the past.

There is very LITTLE reason to have a second phone. Her dad and anyone else - knows her cell phone # on her current phone. And even if she was simply JUST leaving you - there is also not much of a reason to get another phone # , as she could start a new account after she "left you" and bring her old phone #, which I doubt.

When I kicked my EX out, her $700 phone was MY phone. I pay the bills, have access to its use and location. I kept the phone. No favors for her. She got onto a pay-as-you-go phone account/junk $50 phones, new phone #, etc. Also, keeps me from tracking her. After we started dating again, rather than waste another $60 on the cheap service, I gave her back her old phone (cleaned - and I am technical) with full access to her phone, FB, google, email accounts, etc. She wants a new $700 phone... **WOMEN** but it'll come out of her pocket and she not up for renewal for another 9 months  meanwhile, I'll stick with my $180 phone heheh.

@ OP : prepare for the worst... but it seems like you are ready to move on too. Her family is in CA, her EXs are in CA. When she leaves you - it saves her money and time for travel. And if her company has an office in CA, she'll just transfer. When she is gone for 1~2 weeks at a time, its so EASY for her to meet up or hook up with another guy. And likely, she'll just leave you - admit nothing. And by chance, she just so happened to re-kindle a romance with an EX. I bet the new phone (burner phone) has a CA area code... so moving out is easier, for work and CA contacts. She'll be out of your ability to monitor.

Good luck. Be strong.

PS: One of my friends is 65 years old. He typically dates women younger than my wife (She is 31). His current GF is 26. He gets around quite a lot... more than I do. He has no desire for a long-term relationship.


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## TDSC60

Get a new lawyer. Looks like your income is basically the same. With a 50 child custody split, there should be zero child support (or she, having the higher income, may have to pay you). Definitely no spousal support.

And what is up with you allowing her to have phone conversations with XBFs. That is crazy. You know that those conversations were planning what they would do together when she comes to CA.

Get that lawyer.


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## rafaelandy

IMHO, you have valid reasons to be concerned. what your wife is doing are huge red flags, considering the state of your marriage. i will not be surprised if she is already in an affair.

i say - gather more evidence, and be ready for whatever you might discover or "confrim".

if you really want to give it one more shot, talk to her again about your concerns and marriage. i think you have nothing to lose anymore in trying one more time if you say you've been "trying" for years to fix your 
marriage. 

both of you seem to have (almost) given up already.

but this time, TRY TO FIX IT FOR REAL (at least from your end). do what you have to do to "revive" your marriage. at least, you don't have to "look back" and ask yourself the "what ifs" if you finally decide to finally call it quits. you can say to yourself - "I TRIED and DID MY BEST".

i say - talk to her (again), but keep your eyes open. observe (gather evidence) and be ready for "whatever" you might discover or confirm.


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## aine

OP, sounds like you are not so much into the marriage either and was just delaying the inevitable for financial reasons.
Maybe you should use this time to think about what YOU actually want and don't let your decision be based on money.
I suspect you want your freedom too, can't be easy living in a marriage in which you are getting the crumbs?


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## Spotthedeaddog

sfViz said:


> She was financially reliant on me for 12 or so years of our marriage. I owned the house before the marriage though. I lost my job three years ago and have a very small pension and am slowly starting a new business with minimal cash flow now. When I spoke with an attorney 2 years ago they said that the house would remain mine, however I would have to pay spousal support and that may require selling the house to do so. The past 3 years she has been making 2x my pension, but only 1/3 of what my salary was for the majority of our marriage. Fear of finances is the main reason I have not divorced her, yet. I do not like living this way though, life is too short.


welcome to "male privilege"


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## sfViz

I started to implement the 180 plan, as best as can be done from afar. Another bad sign / red flag is that my wife has been very slow to respond to the few (very few!) communications between us. She has been away now for 4 days, I called her once and left a nice (non-needy) voice mail, she has not called me once, or responded to the voice mail. I have received a few texts of the flavor "how are you? miss you guys" (me and our pets)

Intentionally I have replied to her "communications" with the same time delay, or longer, than she has to me. 

I setup an appointment for later this week with the couples therapist we have seen over the years. The topic of discussion is to put the wheels in motion for a legal separation leading to a divorce if needed. This therapist does this for couples that split and saves a lot of money. I want to get the specifics. I have dealt with attorneys in the past and the one I saw a few times about a divorce, known locally as a bulldog, did not leave me with a good feeling (she used to be the law partner of my ex-girlfriend who was a divorce attorney -- i.e. the bullet I dodged  )

I did not tell my wife, and I am hoping the therapist did not tell my wife we are meeting (I will ask directly). This therapist, who has been helping my wife on and off for many years on my wife's depression was very adamant that my wife was not having an affair and would be very surprised. We agreed to disagree on this, and also acknowledge that our pattern results in me be very suspicious, not-trusting, and a behavioral pattern or cycle has been created, all centered around her trips to California and phone calls to her two ex boyfriends (before we were married). 

The 180 Plan makes a lot of sense and even just yesterday, I felt so much better about myself, super confident and realizing that I need to think of my needs being met and that I will survive if I divorce her. 

I am curious as to what the therapist recommends, however I am skeptical, and not interested in really trying yet again to work on things. There are many things I did not do well in our marriage, in particular total withdrawal since we could not work together on resolving the issues we were having. I (immaturely) used withdrawal (emotionally and physically) to "communicate" that things were not improving and she was not living up to our agreements (and my withdrawal behavior was me not living up to my agreements -- I just gave up! but did not take the next steps...limbo).

Back to the point of the 180... It makes a lot of sense of to me, if the motivation of doing it is mainly focused on me and moving on to improve my life. I hope I can really stick to that, instead of hoping it will get her to come running back to me. There is a bit of a paradox with the 180, from my new understanding of it. Is the goal to get a wayward partner to come running back, or is to focus on your priorities independent of the relationship? Maybe a bit of both. Yesterday my wife sent me a couple of texts suggesting future plans for having some fun (swimming lessons together). I have not responded to that yet, and my response, following the 180, will be something along the lines of "Someday I want to improve my swimming". I think that I am perhaps too far gone from the relationship for the 180. 

I know that I can find a better and more healthy relationship and that I have been treated very poorly. Leaving her feels like I am abandoning someone I love who suffers depression (but does not work on that, or take the recommended meds...). I am re-reading some books on being in a relationship with a loved one that has depression. They are helpful. I am reminding myself that we have tried for 16 years and nothing has changed, and I am unhappy, so is she. To me, all signs point to separation at a minimum. The 180 by itself does not seem like it will work long term.

I would like to find some others on this forum, and elsewhere, who have been in a relationship with someone who suffers from (severe) depression. I will search for more threads.

Thanks for listening and the feedback !


----------



## Graywolf2

Do not confront (i.e. “kick the ant nest”) until you have ways of monitoring her communications in place. A voice activated recorder under her car seat is good. Then you can confront with little or no proof and find out what she says to friends or the OM.

Do not tell her all you know. Hold some back. She knows what she did. All you accomplish by spilling your guts is to tell her what you know so she can make up a story that fits. For example if you find two hotel receipts tell her that you found one and see what she says.


----------



## badmemory

sfViz said:


> In the past I have noticed long phone calls with her ex-boyfriends. I asked her about it and she said they were just talking. Nothing else. * Fine, I thought.*


Are you kidding me? Fine? 

OP, by not shutting that down immediately, you're actually facilitating her cheating; and there's no doubt she is. 

Either you are the most naive BS I've seen in a while or you just don't give a crap.


----------



## sfViz

See my edit and clarification on the original post that relates to how often this happens...


----------



## BetrayedDad

sfViz said:


> Should I ask wife if she is having affair, or find out more first?


SAY NOTHING. Cheaters lie and it will only make her hide her tracks better. Continue to investigate until you are beyond a reasonable doubt certain she's having an affair. 

Then approach her, WITH DIVORCE PAPERS IN ONE HAND and CONCRETE PROOF IN THE OTHER. Shock and awe my friend, will snap her out of it or confirm the ending of the relationship.

Accept nothing less than, sincere remorse, total access of devices, unfettered cooperation, and a FULL confession.


----------



## WonkyNinja

MattMatt said:


> She is in communication with former lovers.
> 
> *She has obtained a burner phone.*
> 
> She no longer wears her wedding ring.
> 
> This is looking bad.


Overall I do agree with you but it's hard to believe that anyone wanting to get a burner phone would be dumb enough to have it delivered to the house. 

If that were me I'd go into Walmart and get a pay as you go phone and pay with cash.

If she is that dumb then it shouldn't take Holmes and Watson to find the rest of the proof.


----------



## MattMatt

WonkyNinja said:


> Overall I do agree with you but it's hard to believe that anyone wanting to get a burner phone would be dumb enough to have it delivered to the house.
> 
> If that were me I'd go into Walmart and get a pay as you go phone and pay with cash.
> 
> If she is that dumb then it shouldn't take Holmes and Watson to find the rest of the proof.


It's possible she had intended for the phone to be delivered elsewhere, but people do make mistakes.


----------



## sfViz

WonkyNinja said:


> Overall I do agree with you but it's hard to believe that anyone wanting to get a burner phone would be dumb enough to have it delivered to the house.
> 
> If that were me I'd go into Walmart and get a pay as you go phone and pay with cash.
> 
> If she is that dumb then it shouldn't take Holmes and Watson to find the rest of the proof.


I agree. It showed up in a box, send from her sister via UPS to her at our house. When I asked her about it she said her father bought a new phone for her nephew (son of sister that sent phone) and decided to get one for my wife too, an upgrade.

My wife did not follow through when I asked her to replace it our current shared plan, that I have access to call records. I do not yet know if this new phone has been activated. My current belief is that she has the new phone with her on her trip (I have searched at home for it). Before she left I asked her if she had switched the new phone over and follow through with a shared cell phone plan, her answer was vague and "not yet, I think I have another way to set it up...". 

When she gets home this weekend, I need to find that new phone and see if it is activated. That will tell me more...


----------



## aston

It's done, start planning your exit...blunt words but you need to hear it. She sounds calculating....which means she's already planned her exit. Same thing just happened to my cousin. He only found out after finding an email referencing a pregnancy test to a guy who he thought was just a coworker and how he'd make a great dad, plus a burner phone in her gym bag referencing the said test.

Anyways....you know what you need to do.


----------



## TaDor

sfViz said:


> My wife did not follow through when I asked her to replace it our current shared plan, that I have access to call records. I do not yet know if this new phone has been activated. My current belief is that she has the new phone with her on her trip (I have searched at home for it). Before she left I asked her if she had switched the new phone over and follow through with a shared cell phone plan, her answer was vague and "not yet, I think I have another way to set it up...".
> 
> When she gets home this weekend, I need to find that new phone and see if it is activated. That will tell me more...


As stated... still an exit plan is running. Hell, even my own had some-sort of an idiotic "plan" with a few days of thinking.

Plan for the worst, hope for the best. 

Bet you she has that phone in operation. She left her OLD phone at dad's house while she was out with her NEW phone. If you have GPS tracking on that phone... and you called it, tracked the location - it would be DADS or SIS homes, yet nobody answers it.

If she wasn't planning on using that phone anytime SOON or put it on YOUR family plan - SHE could have done it locally, called her on her new phone, etc.

Be prepared to file too, first. But since she is ahead of you - she might have already done this... and will have you filed the day she returns... damn cat and mouse games.

Your latest post... is just more red flags. Sorry.


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## Herschel

Gtfo
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BobSimmons

sfViz said:


> I agree. It showed up in a box, send from her sister via UPS to her at our house. When I asked her about it she said her father bought a new phone for her nephew (son of sister that sent phone) and decided to get one for my wife too, an upgrade.
> 
> My wife did not follow through when I asked her to replace it our current shared plan, that I have access to call records. I do not yet know if this new phone has been activated. My current belief is that she has the new phone with her on her trip (I have searched at home for it). Before she left I asked her if she had switched the new phone over and follow through with a shared cell phone plan, her answer was vague and "not yet, I think I have another way to set it up...".
> 
> When she gets home this weekend, I need to find that new phone and see if it is activated. That will tell me more...


Hahahaha... *notice the dots at the end, that denotes laughing but it's trailing off..like I'm walking away*


----------



## Mike6211

sfViz said:


> Our marriage has been very stagnant lately ...





sfViz said:


> ... There are many things I did not do well in our marriage, in particular total withdrawal since we could not work together on resolving the issues we were having. I (immaturely) used withdrawal (emotionally and physically) to "communicate" that things were not improving and she was not living up to our agreements (and my withdrawal behavior was me not living up to my agreements -- I just gave up! but did not take the next steps...limbo) ...


https://www.psychologies.co.uk/love/the-6-affair-triggers.html :

"1. Conflict-phobic affair This is when one or both partners won’t argue, and skirt around their differences rather than work through them. The problem with this is that they’re not sharing all of themselves, and so levels of intimacy drop. The relationship becomes routine, rather than being kept alive by fresh dialogue." 




sfViz said:


> I would not be surprised if she left the marriage already ... I think she has been wanting to leave for a long time (years) and finally decided to do it.





MattMatt said:


> She is in communication with former lovers.
> 
> She has obtained a burner phone.
> 
> She no longer wears her wedding ring.





WonkyNinja said:


> ... it's hard to believe that anyone wanting to get a burner phone would be dumb enough to have it delivered to the house.


Not unless they (unconsciously?) want their affair to be discovered and need to ram the message home because the penny hasn't dropped. Same link :

"6. The exit affair The purpose of an exit affair is to try to force the non-straying partner into ending the relationship"


----------



## Satya

sfViz said:


> My wife did not follow through when I asked her to replace it our current shared plan, that I have access to call records. I do not yet know if this new phone has been activated. My current belief is that she has the new phone with her on her trip (I have searched at home for it). Before she left I asked her if she had switched the new phone over and follow through with a shared cell phone plan, her answer was vague and "not yet, I think I have another way to set it up...".
> 
> When she gets home this weekend, I need to find that new phone and see if it is activated. That will tell me more...


You're pretty passive about this, if you'll pardon me saying so. It is important not to show your cards, but this ^ is like you're trying to argue delicately with a 4 year old. Hint, you can't! Your wife has no reason not to be on your plan. It saves money. It consolidates a bill. What does she need a second phone for, if it's not a company phone? Nothing. You need to cut through the BS and stop being afraid of your wife. Your fear is enabling her behavior, not squashing it.


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## notmyrealname4

For future reference, don't tolerate your (next) wife contacting exes.

And it doesn't matter if it was for 50 mins a couple of times a year.

The point is; they are exes. They should have been permanently out of her life.

Maybe you don't love her all that deeply if you would allow this to go on. I mean, you love her; but not with the kind of passion that will not put up with exes being in the picture.


----------



## jsmart

I'm with @Satya. You walking on egg shells in the face of her blatant actions probably emboldens her. Woman can't respect a weak indecisive man. And a man that she doesn't respect, she just can't love. 

So many BHs think they can nice they're wife love back. Doesn't work. They're projecting what would work for them. A man wants his woman to be sweet, kind, and basically nice. A woman could nice a man back but it does the opposite for a woman. They see it as weak and manipulative. Which pushes her toward the OM. He's seen as brave and bold. He's risking himself to pursue a married woman. Even though today men don't usually kill or maim an interloper for most of humanoid history, the male would kill someone that tried to steal his woman. Her subconscious animal mind knows this which is why her body is drawn to him.


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## dash74

Holy .......... this one of them "I never seen it coming" ones with the clues stacked up around you 

No way no how my wife goes out of state without her wedding rings with a new phone and I don't say anything 

Op it's looks like you and her dont care, just call her up and tell her it's over maybe she can stay at her sisters


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## sfViz

Satya said:


> You're pretty passive about this, if you'll pardon me saying so. It is important not to show your cards, but this ^ is like you're trying to argue delicately with a 4 year old. Hint, you can't! Your wife has no reason not to be on your plan. It saves money. It consolidates a bill. What does she need a second phone for, if it's not a company phone? Nothing. You need to cut through the BS and stop being afraid of your wife. Your fear is enabling her behavior, not squashing it.


At this point I do not know if she has the new phone activated. I did tell her that the new phone has to be on our joint plan. Remember too that this new phone is to replace her old phone. We sat down together to go over how to switch from one carrier to another carrier and put the new phone on that new joint family plan. She said she would do this, however it did not happen. I need to wait a few more days when she comes home and ask her "Have you activated the new phone yet?" and if she has, then I know what the situation is. 

For me, the taking off the wedding ring, extra workouts, new haircut, whitening teeth + new activated phone + VAR and 007 methods ==> Divorce paper served.

If the new phone has not been activated yet, and we put it on our joint plan ==> VAR and 007 methods + reinforcing previous agreements made + tell her I am planning on moving on if this is not changed now.


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## Evinrude58

I have never seen on here a more blatant cheating spouse. If you don't file, you will be doomed to own the title of "chump" forever. 
Better to be a past chump, a reformed chump who doesn't tolerate bs. You never even get reasonable explanations from her--- she doesn't even bother to cover her stuff up. I would seriously have divorce papers drawn up for her for when she returns. She won't even shed a tear most likely. She is so long gone emotionally from you that it won't even make a difference for her except financially.

I'm sorry, but your wife is not wearing her ring because she doesn't feel married anymore. She is "free" and loving it.
Please, stop worrying about if she's cheating or not. You already know in your heart that she is FOR SURE. THe sad part is she is doing it right in front of you and you tolerate it. I would without thinking (now that I've been through having a cheating wife), immediately put my current fiancee down the road if I caught her calling or communicating with an ex boyfriend or ex husband. To have a 50minute conversation with them right in front of me?????? She could finish that conversation while I was chunking her crap in the back of her car and sending her back to him.

You are really in a bad relationship. Get out. Nothing left to even discuss here. Anyone who says otherwise is crazy or a masochist.


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## Thor

sfViz, you're so caught up in analyzing the weeds that you can't see the jungle, nor that the jungle is on fire right behind you.

Your wife is 4 steps ahead of you right now. She is working either her exit plan and/or her single-while-married lifestyle. That's all you need to know. Your marriage is basically dead, nothing more than room mates. Your wife is acting single. There are plenty of red flags of an active affair.

You're doing what so many betrayed husbands do, which is try to convince yourself it isn't as bad as it looks, and you're trying to get CSI crime lab proof one way or the other. This is a stalling tactic on your part to not face what is going on and to not take action on it.

The best thing you can do is to prepare for divorce. Talk to at least one atty in your area to find out how things typically go for someone in your circumstances. You can and should also research on the internet, but there is no substitute to talking to an atty. Most will give you a free 10 to 30 minute consult. You'll learn about things you wouldn't think to ask about. Then you can fill out the divorce papers online with your state or have the atty draw them up. You'll need to get all your financial info such as bank accounts, retirement accounts, loans, vehicle values, and home value. You'll want to list out valuable possessions or things of importance to you (family heirlooms, etc). This all gets listed on the divorce papers.

Then you hand the papers to your wife. This is Shock and Awe. If she's been dabbling with cheating it may shock her into stopping and coming back to the marriage. Or, she may be done with the marriage and just say ok let's get divorced.

This is your very best play to save the marriage right now. Going 007 may get you some data but it won't change the outcome nor will it speed things up. Filing for divorce forces her to bring her A game to try to win you back. The game you're playing right now let's her set the rules, and she only has to do what will keep you from leaving her. She can lie, gaslight, and hide things right now, and you won't leave her. She can have lovey-dovey chats with ex-boyfriends. She can have a burner phone, visit men on trips, and who knows what else without fear of divorce. But with those papers in her hands everything changes. You've now defined the rules going forward.

Scary, but the strong and effective move.

If you don't make a move, I bet she'll be filing for divorce before very long.


----------



## eric1

sfViz said:


> At this point I do not know if she has the new phone activated. I did tell her that the new phone has to be on our joint plan. Remember too that this new phone is to replace her old phone. We sat down together to go over how to switch from one carrier to another carrier and put the new phone on that new joint family plan. She said she would do this, however it did not happen. I need to wait a few more days when she comes home and ask her "Have you activated the new phone yet?" and if she has, then I know what the situation is.
> 
> For me, the taking off the wedding ring, extra workouts, new haircut, whitening teeth + new activated phone + VAR and 007 methods ==> Divorce paper served.
> 
> If the new phone has not been activated yet, and we put it on our joint plan ==> VAR and 007 methods + reinforcing previous agreements made + tell her I am planning on moving on if this is not changed now.


I'll save you the trouble... the phone has been activated


----------



## rzmpf

Thor said:


> sfViz, you're so caught up in analyzing the weeds that you can't see the jungle, nor that the jungle is on fire right behind you.
> 
> Your wife is 4 steps ahead of you right now. She is working either her exit plan and/or her single-while-married lifestyle. That's all you need to know. Your marriage is basically dead, nothing more than room mates. Your wife is acting single. There are plenty of red flags of an active affair.


Exactly. It sounds like she already lives another life in California, new haircut, no ring, new phone, father, sisters and XBF live there. She basically has no real contact with you while she is there, you are no part of her life there.


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## Sephirox

Yep, basically sounds like she is living her on life when she is away


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## manfromlamancha

OP, any update? Did your wife come home ? Was the phone activated ? Have you started your snooping yet ? Are you OK?


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## straightshooter

Who knows if this guy will come back, probably not.

Can anyone tell me why a married woman would consistently take her wedding rings off when she goes to California where her ex boyfriends all live???? Maybe I am just confused but that in itself would make me pretty sure she is not behaving like Mother Theresa out there, especially with her past behavior.

We will probably never know but this will most likely not end well.

And asking someone who you suspect is cheating if they are doing it is really not a very smart thing to do. Thats why it is called cheating. Because it is based on lies.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Yup..this is unfortunately just another case of a cuckold who'll continue to cling like grim death to a woman whose been cheating on him and disrespecting him for years. As someone else said about picking in the weeds while the forest burns around him (or something along those lines) I absolutely agree. Zeroing in on whether the burner phone has been activated or not while all the other nonsense is going on around the OP is kind of indicative of a desire to continue sweeping everything under the couch and hoping for the best.

OP, when she eventually tells you she's leaving (and trust me, that's *coming*), please don't claim to be surprised or that you never saw it coming. :frown2:


----------



## Thound

https://youtu.be/FWS1JiREmhY
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lostinthought61

Let's face it, in just the short of time i have been on this website (less then 3 years) i have read countless of men and some women who spark the conversation with their fears that their spouse is cheating, only to gain better insight from the posting of the tribe, and then suddenly when speculation comes face to face with reality they run away, and frankly it is not uncommon for a host of reason why they would rather look the other way than face it. their fears turn to prays, that their spouse will come around and love them again, and all will be what it was. a bump in the road. sometimes ignorance is bliss.


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## GusPolinski

What would be the point in asking her? If she is cheating then she'll just lie bout it when asked. Plus she'll start taking things further underground -- making it even more difficult for you to uncover -- because you've tipped your hand too early.

Read @weightlifter's "Standard Evidence Post" thread for detailed info w/ respect to some of the more successful detection methods. Be sure to pay special attention to the following (paraphrased) excerpt...

EYES OPEN! MOUTH SHUT! NO SOFT CONFRONTS!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Seppuku

The only valid reason I can think of to not take the rings is fear of being robbed.


----------



## TaDor

13 days.... no contact.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

This place sucks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lostinthought61

TheTruthHurts said:


> This place sucks
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because.......?


----------



## Sports Fan

Your first mistake was not clamping down hard and fast on the communication with the ex boyfriends. Even a 1 minute phone call to them is too long. All the red flags are there.

Time to start preparing yourself. Buy 2 VARS stick one strapped under her car seat and the other in the part of the house you think most likely she would conduct a conversation in.

Monitor any joint bank accounts and prepare to be able to shift that money at short notice should you uncover that she is in fact seeing someone.

Dont put your head in the sand. This is not good.


----------



## manfromlamancha

I actually do expect the OP to come back because we have given him good advice based on our collective experience and he has acknowledged this (by his "likes" of our input).

He must be really bogged down with this issue at home and has not had a chance to surface for air. Either that or something really bad happened and he is dealing with that.

My advice to him is to come back here for some support - it will help him to cope and heal.


----------



## sfViz

As predicted, I am back here...

Things were pretty mellow w.r.t. my wife and any contact that I knew about with her ex-boyfriend(s) in California. Until about two weeks ago.

Noticed card with long letter in our mailbox from the ex-BF ( I did not open it or read it)

Then noticed package from ex-BF which my wife quickly hid from me when I was looking at new mail on counter.

Checked phone calls to ex-BF and notice there have been 3 in the past 2 months, after a long period of none. The calls were long (1.5 hours).

Now today she is telling me she is suddenly thinking about going to a memorial service back in California of a girlfriend that passed away in December 2017. That is true, there is a memorial service this weekend. Strange though how she suddenly wants to go to it. I will be out of town this weekend, so the desire to go and deal with pet-sitter etc is concerning.

Checked phone calls tonight after being told about the memorial service in California. Three calls to the ex-BF !

Ok, so the writing is on the wall IMHO. If it was just the memorial service I would not be concerned, but the card, present, and phone calls...

Do I confront her now before the trip? 

Do I let her go and deal with things when she gets back?

Seems like the only reason to confront her now is to stop action before things get any worse, however it seems like the ship has already sailed and time to divorce...

Feel a bit awkward accusing her now though, especially with the memorial service (verified).


----------



## Talker67

did you ever install the VARs that were suggested. It would be good to have heard one of those `1.5 hour long calls....to see what was discussed. that would at least tell you if she already cheated, or is just being played and is vulverable from this past BF.

As far as her going to CA...tell her you want to come along to to the memorial service....see the reaction to that.


----------



## jlg07

Get the var NOW and listen in to her calls with the ex-BF. There really is NO reason for her to be talking with him. It's just disrespectful to you and your marriage. Did you find out what was in the package? You need to start snooping around....


----------



## sfViz

I did install VARs, however that was 2 years ago and did not find anything of interest.

I believe the situation now is different. She is running away, back to the ex BF.

In the past I do not think she was committed to running off like she is now.

I could try to confront her now, and just say "Look, I realize you and the exBF are back in contact, and I want you to be careful about your decisions and actions..." -- in other words try to get her to rethink... or not....


----------



## jlg07

Nope, what you are telling her is it's "OK" for her to contact/talk with him. Get the VARS going again, and PROTECT yourself. May need to get back to the lawyers, and protect your finances..... Don't confront until you have proof. You also need to plan YOUR strategy.


----------



## sfViz

Seems like let her go, not sure about VARs when she is gone...? Suitcase, etc seems way too risky.

Her behavior tonight is strange, really acting guilty. Lots of signals...

I am heading out of town for the week for work and cannot go to California.

I could try to suggest it though just to see her reaction.


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## Lostinthought61

i think she ought to know now from your lips that you shoudl tell her that she can go that will give you time to file for divorce on the ground of adultery and look her straight in the eyes when you say those words...and watch the body language...enough is enough and you have had it...and if she tells you that your crazy ask her for all the letters and package and show all the call logs and tell her to pack her crap and don't come back.


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## jlg07

Can you get a PI on her in California? Should tell you all you need to know..... I think the $$ would be worth the peace of mind for you.


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## GusPolinski

I’d plant a VAR (dust it off and make sure it’s working first) somewhere in the house tomorrow night (wherever you think she’s likely to call ex-BF), confront, let things get heated (maybe demand to see the card/package as well), and then leave “to go for a walk.” Or a drive, whichever. Don’t mention the call logs, BTW.

I’d plant one in the car as well. Say something in the morning to get her good and pissed off and see what you have waiting for you (on the car VAR) in the afternoon.


----------



## sfViz

Checking into a PI now.. thank you for that idea !!


----------



## VladDracul

sfViz said:


> I could try to suggest it though just to see her reaction.



Worth a try. Tell her you're going to postpone your work trip so you can go with her.


----------



## sfViz

Good idea. I leave early in the AM and am away on business until Sunday night.


----------



## GusPolinski

sfViz said:


> Good idea. I leave early in the AM and am away on business until Sunday night.


Make sure you have a VAR running in the house (again, wherever you think she’s most likely to call the ex-BF) whole you’re away. Hide it well and use lithium batteries for a longer run time.


----------



## Windwalker

GusPolinski said:


> I’d plant a VAR (dust it off and make sure it’s working first) somewhere in the house tomorrow night (wherever you think she’s likely to call ex-BF), confront, let things get heated (maybe demand to see the card/package as well), and then leave “to go for a walk.” Or a drive, whichever. Don’t mention the call logs, BTW.
> 
> I’d plant one in the car as well. Say something in the morning to get her good and pissed off and see what you have waiting for you (on the car VAR) in the afternoon.


Damn good idea Gus.


Take this under serious consideration OP.


----------



## sfViz

VAR's are placed in 3 places... very last minute rush to do so since I leave in the morning, however I checked the settings and followed the "Standard Evidence" guidance.

Question: Should I leave her a letter in the morning that lets her know that I am aware of her ex-BF contact? Why do this, I ask myself, why not get more evidence and not drive her to more secrecy??


----------



## [email protected]

sfViz, a letter is probably not a good way to confront her. It seems sort of passive. Make sure you see the right lawyer right away, and then file on her.
Truthfully, I don't think you need any more evidence than you already have. Clearly, she has checked out of the marriage a long time ago.


----------



## OutofRetirement

I don't know why all the *****-footing around.

If my wife gets a letter and a gift from an ex-boyfriend, I expect her to tell me about it. If not, I ask about it. And demand to see it. If she refuses to share it with me, then our marriage, as we know it, comes to a screeching halt.

For one, I have no desire - none, nada, zero desire - to stay with my if she wants to keep secrets between her and her ex-boyfriend. I love my wife, we have kids, a long marriage - but what would even be the point of fighting it? If she wants him, theng she should go be with him. But for me to sit and do nothing and play private detective? No way. I couldn't look myself in the eye in the mirror being so darn pathetic that I have to argue with my wife that she shouldn't keep secrets with another man over me.

She is keeping secrets with another man, right? And you act like nothing's going on? What are you afraid of? It just seems kind of obvious to me. The almost-definite cheating is almost beside the point. Secrets with another man is already completely unacceptable. Can't continue acting as husband and wife with secrets like that.

"I saw a letter and a gift from your ex-boyfriend. Why didn't you tell me about it? What was in the letter? What was the gift? Can I see it?"

If there is any denial or refusal, "I have no intention of staying in a marriage where you have secrets with an ex-boyfriend." Period. No ultimatums. No deadlines. You do what you want to do, what you need to do, on your own timeline. But the marriage as you knew it, she ended that, not you. The minute she decided to keep secrets and deny you the truth, she changed the marriage. Your decision is, do you stay in a marriage that she altered to leave you as dupe?


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## arbitrator

*"Where there's smoke, there's fire!"

Having said that, plant a well-concealed VAR underneath her car seat! What you'll learn will likely nauseate you!

And while you can't use those results in a court setting, it will let you know if her heart, or her vagina, is in the right place!*


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## oldtruck

OutofRetirement said:


> I don't know why all the *****-footing around.
> 
> If my wife gets a letter and a gift from an ex-boyfriend, I expect her to tell me about it. If not, I ask about it. And demand to see it. If she refuses to share it with me, then our marriage, as we know it, comes to a screeching halt.
> 
> For one, I have no desire - none, nada, zero desire - to stay with my if she wants to keep secrets between her and her ex-boyfriend. I love my wife, we have kids, a long marriage - but what would even be the point of fighting it? If she wants him, theng she should go be with him. But for me to sit and do nothing and play private detective? No way. I couldn't look myself in the eye in the mirror being so darn pathetic that I have to argue with my wife that she shouldn't keep secrets with another man over me.
> 
> She is keeping secrets with another man, right? And you act like nothing's going on? What are you afraid of? It just seems kind of obvious to me. The almost-definite cheating is almost beside the point. Secrets with another man is already completely unacceptable. Can't continue acting as husband and wife with secrets like that.
> 
> "I saw a letter and a gift from your ex-boyfriend. Why didn't you tell me about it? What was in the letter? What was the gift? Can I see it?"
> 
> If there is any denial or refusal, "I have no intention of staying in a marriage where you have secrets with an ex-boyfriend." Period. No ultimatums. No deadlines. You do what you want to do, what you need to do, on your own timeline. But the marriage as you knew it, she ended that, not you. The minute she decided to keep secrets and deny you the truth, she changed the marriage. Your decision is, do you stay in a marriage that she altered to leave you as dupe?


Exactly.

Why all this passive baloney afraid to confront when you have the truth.

Confront WW with the broken NC.

That you know her intentions to go hook up.
If she goes tell her to stay there because you will be filing.

Demand the WW to produce the gift if she wants to stay as your wife.
Then destroy the gift so she can't save it from the garbage.

She balks just once then you file.


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## Steve2.0

Confronting her about anything is pointless... Confronting her that you "feel" she is cheating isnt going to get you very far.. she is just going to dig deeper or lie.

Confront her when you have evidence and/or divorce papers.

What do you want in life? If she said "yes, your right.. im coming back to you" - do you want her back?


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## hoblob

You had suspicions 2 years ago and placed VARs in her car? How long has she been doing this. You must be a wreck. Why don’t you just put your foot down and tell her she can’t have 2 hour convos with her ex?


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## SunCMars

Since you do not care about her, about this marriage.
Why should she?



TRQ-


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## bandit.45

It all seems like a lot of energy to expend on a woman who no longer loves you. It has been obvious since 2016. 

Let her go. Free yourself. None of this heartache is worth it.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Just confront before she leaves, tell her to enjoy her boyfriend and stay in California as you are done.

Why torture yourself. Find a nice woman who will treat you well.


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## Taxman

Agreed, let her know that you know she is having an affair. Do not tell her how you know. Wait for the reaction. Tell her that you are divorcing her, and that she should enjoy California, as that is likely where she will be living on an go forward basis.


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## BluesPower

I have read some things from weak men before, but my friend you may be the weakest of them all. 

I am going to just ignore the past affairs she was having in CA that you were worrying about but never did the work to find out about. Yeah, yeah, you did not find TOTAL UNDENIABLE EVIDENCE THAT SHE WAS CHEATING. 

I am just going to start with the letter. Married women, do not get letters from boyfriends that the husband does not get to read. Nor does anyone except a complete puss allow her to "hide" the package from him and not let you see it. 

How is there anyway to justify your weakness? How does that work? Do you have some cuckold fetish that you have not told us about? 

Allow me to explain what is going and has been going on in CA. They are going to have wild monkey sex every spare moment that they can get. If you have been getting any sex at all from your wife, doubtful, I assure you that BF is going to get sex from her that you cannot even imagine. She is going to be doing things that you don't even know that people do. 

And while all of this is going on, you will still be in denial and wondering if she is having an affair. 

Let me help you out... YOUR WIFE IS AND HAS BEEN HAVING AND AFFAIR FOR GODS KNOWS HOW LONG AND YOUR WEAKNESS HAS ALLOWED YOU TO BE IN DENIAL ABOUT IT!!!!

You get that...

So to answer your question: No you do not ask her is she is having an affair. You call your lawyer today and tell him to start divorce proceedings today and file ASAP. 

With any luck, you can have your wife served when she gets home from her monkey sex tour of OM's bed room. 

Good grief...


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## skerzoid

sfViz:

1. Go ahead with your PI. You seem to NEED evidence before you act.

2. Have papers drawn up and have them placed on the table in your home for her to find when she returns. Leave your wedding ring on top for a nice touch.

3. Have a place to stay for a while before responding to anything she says.

4. Have VAR placed where she would be calling from.

5. Remove anything from the home that you will need.

6. Get your financial ducks in a row. Separate credit cards, bank accounts, etc.

7. You have allowed this to get to where it is by inaction. Be strong, Be courageous, Be decisive.


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## eric1

Wouldn’t the simple way be to place VARs then tell her that you have a surprise and will be going with her. Even if you are already on the trip tell her you are cutting it short. The VARs will then have the proof.

Your goal now is getting out of infidelity and passively encouraging it serves no purpose. If you are divorcing then it does not matter if she goes or not.


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## OutofRetirement

Even if the VAR and the PI showed nothing, the secrets with gifts and a letter from a boyfriend significantly alters my conception of a marriage. Refusal to share the info would be unacceptable to me.

Just the fact that you have to ask her about the letter and gift and she didn't just share it with you without you asking, is a huge deal to me.

I believe it will be much more difficult to stay with her, (and it's obvious that's what you want), much more pain to deal with, if she goes to visit and you find out she has sex with him. I know you think if you make a stand you're afraid you might lose her, but I think if that's the case, you really already lost her.


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## thummper

Too bad you can't have her served while in California and let her stew about it for awhile.


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## 86857

Hi sfVIZ
Regardless of what you do re VARS, evidence, confront etc it's over imo. 
What really concerns me is your financial situation. Did you see a lawyer and find out about spousal allowance etc? If not, do so immediately. Is yours a no fault state & does that affect the allowance? Sorry I don't know anything about US divorce. 

You've taken abuse from her for years and she assumes you'll keep doing so. Why not this time be one step ahead of her. Get the best lawyer in town to get the best settlement possible and have the papers drawn up & calmly give them to her. Forget about evidence, asking her re bf's gifts or anything else. You're way past that & deep down you know it. 

She may beg you not to D, simply cos bf may not be prepared to commit to her, it's just fun for him at the moment. Her response will tell you a lot. If you cave in & don't D, then all you'll get is more of the same. But up to you.

My main point is prepare D papers with the best possible financial settlement. Nail her to the wall if there's a way. That more than anything else will influence your life after this. 

Btw how old are you guys? 

PS Re spouses with depression. They can be hell to live with & can also be very abusive as they take it out on their closest ones and it's all about 'them'. If they refuse to do anything about it, ie meds etc, there's nothing you can do. ZERO. So you either put up with their nonsense. . . or leave. I wouldn't waste any time thinking about her depression. BF can deal with it!


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## Talker67

sfViz said:


> I did install VARs, however that was 2 years ago and did not find anything of interest.
> .


well, a 4 pack of lithium AA cells is cheap insurance....get those VARs cranking again!


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## Talker67

OutofRetirement said:


> For one, I have no desire - none, nada, zero desire - to stay with my if she wants to keep secrets between her and her ex-boyfriend.


here is the thing....EVERYONE has temptations. Little fantasies. Jeepers, even Jesus Christ was tempted by the devil!

So i do not find keeping a "secret" necessarily a deal breaker. I do not want to know if my wife fantasizes about Ryan Reynolds while she plays with herself. It might even be ok, in a group work setting, if there was a lot of kidding around, including sexual innuendos and jokes.

It DOES cross the line if she actually starts discussing sexual things with another person privately.

So the danger here is...is she doing something that is over the line, or something that is just talking about going fishing or something like that. THAT is why he needs to get those VARs running....to differentiate. Its the only way, as she will ALWAYS downplay the seriousness of things if asked.


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## oldshirt

The fact that he is openly sending her mail to your house means that your "marriage" means nothing to either him or her. 

Your passivity and acceptance of her behavior have basically allowed her to have a double life in CA. 

I don't see any need for confrontation here. She knows what she is doing. 

You know what she is doing. 

You have accepted it under your nose for over a year and half. 

- what is there to confront???

Either suck it up and keep living with it so you don't upset the fruit cart or exit stage-left and go do your own thing.


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## TDSC60

She has been treating you like crap for what..... 2 years now?

You had the evidence in your hand. Find that damn letter from the BF. She will not destroy it. It is a keep sake for her. (BTW, he is not her old BF. He is her current BF) and probably her affair partner.

What are you afraid of? Why are you ignoring the obvious?


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## jlg07

Hey @sfViz, any updates? Hope you are doing well. Did you get the PI on her in California?


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## ABHale

sfViz said:


> As predicted, I am back here...
> 
> Things were pretty mellow w.r.t. my wife and any contact that I knew about with her ex-boyfriend(s) in California. Until about two weeks ago.
> 
> Noticed card with long letter in our mailbox from the ex-BF ( I did not open it or read it)
> 
> Then noticed package from ex-BF which my wife quickly hid from me when I was looking at new mail on counter.
> 
> Checked phone calls to ex-BF and notice there have been 3 in the past 2 months, after a long period of none. The calls were long (1.5 hours).
> 
> Now today she is telling me she is suddenly thinking about going to a memorial service back in California of a girlfriend that passed away in December 2017. That is true, there is a memorial service this weekend. Strange though how she suddenly wants to go to it. I will be out of town this weekend, so the desire to go and deal with pet-sitter etc is concerning.
> 
> Checked phone calls tonight after being told about the memorial service in California. Three calls to the ex-BF !
> 
> Ok, so the writing is on the wall IMHO. If it was just the memorial service I would not be concerned, but the card, present, and phone calls...
> 
> Do I confront her now before the trip?
> 
> Do I let her go and deal with things when she gets back?
> 
> Seems like the only reason to confront her now is to stop action before things get any worse, however it seems like the ship has already sailed and time to divorce...
> 
> Feel a bit awkward accusing her now though, especially with the memorial service (verified).


The time is to divorce. What else can your really do at this point. Tell her to pack everything that belongs to her and not to bother with coming back.


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## ABHale

sfViz said:


> VAR's are placed in 3 places... very last minute rush to do so since I leave in the morning, however I checked the settings and followed the "Standard Evidence" guidance.
> 
> Question: Should I leave her a letter in the morning that lets her know that I am aware of her ex-BF contact? Why do this, I ask myself, why not get more evidence and not drive her to more secrecy??


Why tip her off. Just see a lawyer when you can and have divorce papers drawn up and have her served. That will be plenty enough notice.


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## BarbedFenceRider

Get some holy water and sprinkle well.....This marriage is dead. She has a boyfriend. Just don't go sticking mr. willy in there...If you know whats best for you....Most likely you are not getting any as well....Take the stuff you really want to keep and get it into storage. Also, if she is able to get a phone and you know about it...What about opening credit lines and more debt. You would be responsible for it. Just a thought.


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## jferg0212

Talker67 said:


> did you ever install the VARs that were suggested. It would be good to have heard one of those `1.5 hour long calls....to see what was discussed. that would at least tell you if she already cheated, or is just being played and is vulverable from this past BF.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as her going to CA...tell her you want to come along to to the memorial service....see the reaction to that.




What’s VAR? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TDSC60

jferg0212 said:


> What’s VAR?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Voice Activated Recorder.


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## skerzoid

Anything from the PI? Any news from anything? We want to help but need some feedback.


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## Gabriel

Does he know he's been cuckolded for years?

How passive can you freaking be?


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## TDSC60

Gabriel said:


> Does he know he's been cuckolded for years?
> 
> How passive can you freaking be?


I think he is too afraid of what he will find. Subconsciously, he knows what she has been doing. But for some reason is ignoring all the red flags.
Proof will make it real and require him to act. He is scared of what he will have to do. He is hoping that if he ignores it long enough, it will go away.


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## Marc878

TDSC60 said:


> I think he is too afraid of what he will find. Subconsciously, he knows what she has been doing. But for some reason is ignoring all the red flags.
> Proof will make it real and require him to act. He is scared of what he will have to do. He is hoping that if he ignores it long enough, it will go away.


Indecision keeps you in limbo. OP, you are the one keeping yourself there.


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