# CONSIDERING DIVORCE... AGAIN. Is it me?



## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

Hello to all of you here on this forum. The fact that you are a member of this forum means that you are more than likely going through a difficult time in your marriage, or relationship. However, if that is the case, then this is the best place to be. Which is exactly why I am back after several months of being away. I hope each of your individual situations are getting better as each day passes.

My husband thought that my visiting marriage support forums, was filling me with negativity about him. He said that if he was to go on a marriage forum and spin things in his favor, then they would all tell him to leave me too. However, the difference between he and I is that I always tried to give him the benefit of the doubt in many cases, which was viewed by others as my making excuses for his actions toward me.

Nonetheless, I dropped the forum, and allowed my husband to convince me that I should move back home and give him another chance. I loved him, so all he had to do was never give up and never leave me alone during our ten-month long separation. He wore me down, and I gave in.

I was not exactly happy about my decision in the beginning, as I was still very skeptical and felt I had been pressured to move back home. However, as a couple of weeks progressed things seemed to actually be better. I thought to myself "Maybe he actually understands what he has done to me, and has really changed.", but then little things started happening.

He began making comments like "I don't even understand why you left." and "I'm getting sick and tired of this f-ing equality bulls-!" He complains when I visit my family too much and says I am neglecting him. He gets mad when I want to hang out with my friends and says he doesn't like them because they were trying to get me to f- another man, which absolutely untrue. I don't have any clue where he came up with that one, as all of my friends have only been supportive of me and whatever makes me happy. He goes through my text messages. Now, he wants me to take another lie detector test for the time that we were separated. Scratch that. He told me that he wanted me to take another lie detector test. I told him that I did not want to go through that again, but would do so if he wanted me to. I added that I would need support, just like the last time and would either have my sister or close friend by my side through the ordeal. He became enraged by this and said that he would never ask me to take another lie detector test, but that I should want to for him. He then became mad that I did not want to, and tried very hard to convince me to want to take the test. I am sure this is so I would have to tell my family and friends that I wanted the test and that he did not request that I take it. I think he is very afraid of how my family and friends will perceive him if he demands I take another lie detector test. They went through this with me in the past, due to his demanding, and saw how much pain I was put through in the interim. They would hate him if he put me through this again, and would definitely tell me to leave him.

There is more, but it doesn't really matter. I have just kept telling myself that I cannot expect perfection from him. I tell myself that these things are just momentary lapses, and that he is not backsliding. I am trying really hard to tell myself that he is not hurting me, and that he will come to his senses and stop putting me through all of this nonsense... that everyone needs time to change, and that everyone has momentary lapses. Everyone makes mistakes, right?

Please, tell me what you all think of this. I am lost, and want to make sure that I am giving my marriage the chance that it deserves. I want to make sure that I am not doing anything wrong to him. I want to make sure that my husband is not reverting back to his abusive ways.

I always feel crazy when this is going on in my marriage, and question my own judgement. He has a way of making me feel like I am the one who is wronging him. I am a good person, and do not ever want to hurt my husband. Somehow, he always seems to explain his behavior away and make it my fault. I want to make sure he is not correct. If he is correct, then I need to figure out just what I am doing wrong and make changes in myself. I want to be a good wife.

Please, help me see things clearly.


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## takris (Sep 22, 2010)

I am sorry if you take this wrong, but I read your previous lie detector post, and you should absolutely never ever have to put up with this. Marriage is about trust. If you fell repeatedly into affairs, perhaps you might offer this in the future to salvage your marriage, but not like this.

This treatment is conditioning you in a way that is cruel.

You mentioned the intention of being a good wife. A good wife is one who models integrity in a relationship, not one who bends to every demand of a very paranoid person. As yourself this. Would a good husband humiliate his wife like this?

My wife and I worked for years with her friend, who was treated in a similar manner. She was even forced by her husband to publically apologize in their church so his friends could see her as the problem. Happily, she left him, but it took 20 years.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

Takris,

I appreciate your response to my post so very much. Before you use the phrase "Marriage is about trust" you should not that I have not always been honest with my husband about everything. I have lied to him about a checking account, which I secretly established to save up money and leave him, after he had a violent episode. I also lied about two credit cards in the past, simply out being afraid to ask him for money, and then being afraid of his temper after he would have found about about what I had done. While I have tried to justify my actions to him so many time in the past, they are just that... MY actions. No matter what my fears were, I should have been honest. Instead of lying out of fear, I should have left him at the time due to the fear he enstilled in me. My husband did not twist my arm and make me have a secret account or secret credit cards. I did one more thing too. Over the course of about a year and a half, with about a nine-month gap in between, I spoke to an ex-boyfriend on the phone several times. Please, don't totally judge me, as I did not have any type of affair and never intended to. I was stupid and simply befriended my ex as he was going through a divorce and fighting for his son. I felt very bad for him and just tried to be an ear for him as he cried. I told my husband about this as a result of my sister's insistance. This was not the reason I was forced to take a lie-detector test. My sister knew all about the dialogue between my ex and I, as she was his friend too, and was not sure if I would feel any guilt over it as I took the test. She figured it best that I tell my husband. I did not feel any guilt about it until after I told my husband. I wished I could have been honest about it, but knew that my husband would never want me to speak to my ex due to the fact that I was the one who ended the relationship, leaving my ex very heartbroken. He would have been afraid that my ex would have tried to get me back. I was correct in this sense, as to this day my husband throws the dialogue between my ex and I in my face and tells me that the only reason he was talking to me was to get me back. He could never understand that the man had moved on and was now terribly heartbroken over another woman. Nonetheless, I should have been honest from the very beginning and not hid the so-called friendship. It does not matter how my husband would have reacted. I should have been forthcoming about everything. Scratch that, in hind-sight I wish I had never spoken with my ex at all. I would imagine no man would approve, and should have thought twice about my actions. If you read the post about my prior lie detector test, then you would know that the request for my taking a lie detector test came as a result of a mad-man high on crystal meth, who was desperate to find his girlfriend. It was a crazy story and a crazy time in my life. I probably should have found some way to press charges against the man for harrassment or something. I was just totally relieved when it was all over. 

I got off track a bit here, but the point is I was not always honest with my husband. Faithful? Yes. Honest? No. When, I returned home after our separation, I told myself that I needed to trust my husband had changed, and would never try to hurt me in any way again. I told myself that I could and should be honest, because I should not be skeptical of him at all, and just trust what he has told me. I have lied one time since we reconciled. He found out that I had spoken to my cousin about the lie-detector test issue. I had already told him that I had spoken with our family friend, with whom he respects very highly and who has always been able to remain unbiased when it comes to issues in our marriage. He told me before I came back home that I could speak to anyone I wanted, but said that he just worries about me telling my family everything that goes on in our marriage. I agreed. I should have been able to be honest, but wasn't when he asked me if I had spoken with anybody about our problems other than the one person I had already disclosed. The fact that he was asking me made me scared that I had done something wrong so, naturally, I lied out of fear that he would get mad at my discussing what goes on in our house with others. He told me that he knew that I had spoken to someone other than the one person he said I was allowed to speak with about our problems, and I fessed up. He became very mad at me for lying. I realized that I should not have lied, told him he was absolutely right and sincerely apologized. I asked him to please forgive me and explained that I had had a minor set-back. I responded to him as I would have in the past. I did not mean to wrong him. I explained that I accepted full responsibility, and promised that it would never happen again. Between you and I, I never would have gone to my cousin if I knew that it was not allowed. I only got the sense that it was not allowed, when he asked if I had talked to anyone else.

What would you do if your wife had lied to you in the past about a checking account, two credit cards, speaking with an ex-boyfriend and talking to friends and family about your problems? Would you trust her? While everyone else in my life totally trusts me, I have not had the same track record of trustworthy behavior with my husband. 

Believe me, his actions are truly hurting me and I really want to believe that am correct in what my mind believes to be is mistreatment, as I feel absolutely crazy at the moment. I feel like I cannot trust my own logic, as I try to be fair and ask myself if this all my fault. Did I create this problem? 

I am trying so hard to resume my marriage with a new attitude, and absolutely refuse to throw anything my husband ever did to me in the past in his face. I have been very good at not responding to anything he says about my actions in the past by saying things like "But, you hit me." or "But, you lied to me about how much the mortgage payment was" or "But, you visit your ex-girlfriend's parents" or "you put me on an allowance of $150.00 per month, before I ever had the first account or credit card.", etc. There are times that I want to scream these things out so badly but restrain myself, as I tell myself that it would be wrong and unfair to continually call him out on things he did to me in the past that I have supposedly forgiven him for.

I know my posts are always so long and winded, but I just always want to make sure that whomever is listening has the entire story. I want to make sure that no one's viewpoint or judgement is tainted or swayed by what I feel about each issue. I want honest feedback.


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## takris (Sep 22, 2010)

crisis1008 said:


> Takris,
> 
> 
> What would you do if your wife had lied to you in the past about a checking account, two credit cards, speaking with an ex-boyfriend and talking to friends and family about your problems? Would you trust her? While everyone else in my life totally trusts me, I have not had the same track record of trustworthy behavior with my husband.
> ...


Didn't realize that the comment would be taken so literally. Trust assumes an environment of safety. If you withhold the truth or lie because you fear, what does that say about the other person?

I trust my wife because of who I am. So, if she had lied about checking accounts and credit cards and communications? We're human, so who cares? I'm more worried about the reasons she felt compelled to. She sometimes buys things because of depression. So, when I saw a few thousand on a credit card, of course I overreacted. Then I apologized for being such a jerk. She should never have to feel small or childish by me. Its mutual respect.

And my wife is embarrassed by the fact that she wrecks her car all the time. The first few times, she tried to hide it. But when she came to me at work, crying because she took out the garage door, I felt like the biggest heel for adding to her humiliation. So, we celebrated instead. Called it a celebration for getting a snazzy new garage door.

Point is, if she was afraid to tell me about mistakes, I would look at myself and ask how I created this environment between us. Fix that problem, then hope we could move on to where she feels comfortable telling me if she makes mistakes. I make my own and want her to be able to forgive me if I do.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

You've already apparently submitted to a lie detector. Just demanding a spouse to take one would be sufficient grounds to cause most to leave the marriage. He is demanding another one? How many would satisfy him? You stashed some money to leave an abusive, potentially violent husband. The violence and abuse weren't your choice. Your course of action, in that case, wasn't dishonesty but the only reasonable, intelligence course of action one in your situation would choose. Obtaining and using credit cards to avoid hostile or violent outbursts may have been reasonable, depending on the level of hostility you were being subjected to. That, also, wasn't your choice. 
He wants you to "want" to take another poly. Only a moron "wants" to take a poly. I had to take one for my job and it isn't fun. I believe I'd tell him I "want" to remain in the marriage, but I "insist" on being treated with respect. I'm not getting on any more polygraphs, not submitting DNA samples, fingerprint samples, handwriting exemplars. Not tolerating intrusions into my private accounts. If he wants to be a husband, you're his gal. If he wants to be the Grand Inquisitor, he'll have to find someone else to interrogate. He already knows more about you than any human being alive. If he thinks he's got a bad deal, he needs to make a decision and move on. Alternatively, you could agree to take one more poly if he will. Your question will be: Question: since you have been married, have you had sexual intercourse with anyone other than your husband? His question will be: Question: Have you ever hit, shoved, kicked, or threatened your wife with bodily harm? Agree to post the results in public.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

Taking a polygraph test in the past was the most mentally, emotionally and physically draining thing I ever allowed my husband to put me through. My mother had taken one for employment purposes in the past and failed her name and her home address. I knew her to be telling the truth. I know my mother's name and where she lives. The lie detector test was bogus. I was so scared that the lie detector would do the same to me, but my husband told me that I had to take one or he was divorcing me. I had to bring my sister, brother-in-law and their two children down by train so that my sister could be by my side through the entire ordeal. I wanted to die. 

At my heaviest, my weight was 123 lbs. I lost over 15 lbs during the three weeks leading up to the exam. I threw-up a lot due to the stress my body was under, and could not eat much. I did a lot of crying and was not allowed to leave the house to go stay with my mother, or even go to work for two weeks. My husband said that I could not leave him alone in the state that he was in. I was called a whole lot of degrading names, such as wh-re, sl-t, b-ch, ****, etc. My husband would do things like slide everything off of the kitchen counters, allowing oil and vinegar bottles, glasses, jars, etc. to smash on the ground, and would tell me to get on my knees and clean up the mess. He told me that I had to take it, as he stood over me calling me all of these horrible names. After it was over, he would thank me for doing what he told me to do and taking everything he dished out toward me. He would corner me on the couch and scream at me until I would desperrately run away and call my sister begging her for help. Inevitably, she would call the police, as she could hear what he was doing to me in the background. When the police would arrive at my house, we would both lie and say that nothing was wrong. Fortunately, the lie detector test showed I was telling the truth, but I still know that they are not fool-proof. If my mother could be told that she was lying about her name and where she lived, then it still could do the same to me. 

Not to mention, I foolishly allowed my husband to put me through this before, which was something I never should have allowed. My family and friends begged me not to. They told me that it was a form of abuse. Funny, they did not even know any of what had already been going on in my marriage for years. I always made excuses for my high-stress level, tear-swollen eyes and bruises. You know, "I fell in the tub." or "I am just so stressed out due to full-time work, full-time college and full-time family." They would inquire as to what was going on at home, but I never folded. I think they just sensed something was wrong.

You are absolutely right. While my husband tells me that I am in control of my own actions, I am terrified of telling him something that he does not want to hear and simply lie as a reaction. I am terrified of what his reaction will be. I hope that he has, or is working on changing, but I can never really know for sure if he will ever snap on me again. I truly want to believe that he sees things differently these days, but recently he seems more and more controlling of any situation, conversation or disagreement. I am beginning to get scared again, which is what makes me think he may not have changed or is reverting back to his old ways. He may be comfortable with the fact that he has me back home now, and I have opened up my heart again.

I had thought about taking the test, leaving him the day of, and simply holding the results for my own satisfaction. I would show my friends and family, but not him. Then, I thought about just telling him that I would take the test, and leaving him the day of the supposed exam, but that makes no sense. I don't want to go through a polygraph examination ever again. I realize now that I do not and should not have to. Therefore, I do not need to lie.

UN, I absolutely love your suggestion. Rather than my taking another polygraph, I would request that he take one asking the specific questions you suggested and more. I have no question about his fidelity, but would certainly love to see him admit to all of the abuse he has bestowed upon me in the past.

Okay, so I would not do that. Unlike him, I would never subject the person I love to something so horrible. We are supposed to be trusting one another this time. Turning a new leaf, you know? Why does it have to be this way? I want both of us to move forward with our lives, as we develop a happy and healthy marriage.

Truth is your responses have made me realize that it really is not me. I am afraid that he is back-sliding on me, which I have to be strong about. I cannot allow this behavior to become acceptable again, and may have to divorce him if it continues. I cannot continue to live my life the way I have lived it for the last several years. It is just so hard when you truly love someone. You want so badly to believe that they love you back, that they did not mean to hurt you and that they will never do it again. But, it's just not reality. Is it?

I just wish he could see what he is doing to me… what he is doing to us.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

*Re: DEEP IN THOUGHT. CAN ANYONE RELATE?*

So, can anybody tell me why once the bad seems to subside for a bit, we feel happy again.

There are times when things in your marriage seems so bad that you just want to die. However, we feel like we don't need to do anything about those times when things seem a little better (knowing its only temporary). Or, we don't do anyhting about those times, because we feel like any action is now unwarranted due to the fact that things have subsided for the moment.

Just because your spouse appears to be treating you well at the moment, doesn't mean that they did not just mistreat you, right. 

For example, I left my husband due to years of abuse that just bottled up inside me and rendered me incapable of putting up with anymore. However, my husband will at times say that he does not understand why I left him because there had been no physical abuse in the two years leading up to our separation. Despite the fact that there were various other forms of abuse that my husband bestowed upon me, was I supposed to let go of the physical abuse just because he ws not currently reacting in such a way. Is there a time limit for when you can be angry over something?

That's really a bad example. I really don't know how to explain what my question really is. I mean, he was angry with me last week, as he told me he was unhappy due to the fact that I did not want to take a lie detector test. He has let this issue subside for the moment, but I know that the issue will come up again very soon. If I was to leave him today, he would say that he did not do anything to make me leave and that I seemed happy. He would say that I did not seem unhappy, but just because I seem happy today does not mean that I am not unhappy about yesterday, or about what will more than likely come of tomorrow.

Does anybody follow me? Does anybody know what I mean? Can anyone relate?

These are the types of issues that make one feel crazy and unable to trust their own instincts or judgement.

Tonight, I will go home somewhat happy because I think he will not be badgering me to do something that I do not want to do, but I am really still unhappy because I will probably hear about it tomorrow.


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## Bluemoon7 (Jan 27, 2010)

Your friends and family are right, your husband is absolutely abusing you. 

Read about the cycle of violence (doesn't have to be physical) and that will help you understand the cycle of fighting and making up.
Cycle Of Violence - Domestic Violence

I see lots of red flags in your post. Your H disrespects you. He is VERY controlling. Isolating you from your friends and family is a way to control and isolate you from the people that love and care about you. This is so that you you will feel like you have no one else, that your H is the only one that is there for you. So you will not have the self esteem and strength to leave him. A H that loves you and cares about your well-being does not try to cut you off from your family. Unless they are toxic. And even then it should still be your decision. 

Frankly, I think women should have an emergency fund for instances as you described, like escaping an abusive husband. I don't think you were wrong for lying about it.

It sounds like a miserable and possibly dangerous situation. Please go to counseling if possible. You need to learn that this is an unhealthy relationship and you deserve to be treated better. Good luck.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

I have been through so much counseling for these issues. I don't think it will ever really help me, or him.

I just keep going back. I do love him, but meant what I said when I told him that I did not want to love him anymore. During our separation, I tried to be so strong. I tried to be logical and rational while speaking with him, as I continued to hold my ground. I tried to piss him off so that he would hate me rather than want me back. I tried to beg him to leave me alone. I even tried to completely cut him off from my life. I tried to be evasive so that he had no connection, or knowledge to follow my every move. He just badgered my family and friends for information about me. Any little bit that he was given, was pieced irrationally and incorrectly pieced together by his severe insecurities and shattered ego. He absolutely refused to leave me alone. 

At this point, I am afraid that I will never be able to leave him. I truly wish he was being honest with me when he said that he had changed. His closest friends even became spokespersons for him. They assured me that he had changed, and wanted no more than to treat me with love and respect from now on.

Funny, but today we are not arguing, but I still am hurting. Actually, I am in excruciating pain. The tearing between my love for him and the feeling of being trapped is killing me.

I want to be able to trust myself. I want to be able to feel comfortable in my marriage. I want peace. I want happiness. Where on earth can I find it?

I am truly afraid that I am done for. Leaving does no good. It does not work!

For all of those out there who think that leaving your spouse may just be the shock your marriage needs in order to repair itself, YOU ARE WRONG! HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF! YOU ARE WRONG! I WAS WRONG! I AM SCREWED!

I am so sorry. BLUEMOON7, I do thank you so much for your support. I am truly greatful for you and everyone else who has tried to help me on this forum. I am just having a very bad day mentally and emotionally.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

Today, my pain continues. It does not matter that my husband sent me a text message telling me that he loves me and always will. This marriage is a roller coaster ride of emotions. I am trying to remember that I am not supposed to be scared of him this time around. I am trying to remember that I don't really care about what he thinks about my general actions on a daily basis. I am a good wife and person. There is nothing I do that would warrant my needing to be afraid of what my husband would think about my actions. If he gets mad at something that I have done throughout the day, or even in the past, then that is his problem. Right? Why should I cringe whenever he gets mad at every little thing?

Yesterday, I ran about fifteen minutes late finishing up my work at the office. When I went to leave the office it was pouring outside so badly that I could not see the parking lot in front of me. I then decided to give it a few minutes, hoping the weather would calm a bit. I live about 1.5 hours away from my office, and weather like that could be bad for my commute. Duh. 

Anyway, about 25 minutes later the weather had still not subsided. So, I decided to bear it. Funny, I was afraid my husband would become irritated by my getting home from work late. I called him as soon as I got on the road to let him know that I was on my way home, and explain why I was running a bit late. He told me that it was too bad and explained that he had planned to take me to dinner, but that it would now be too late. I asked why and explained that I was only a bit late, but he still said that it was too late. He then asked “Wow, it was pouring so bad that you could not see in front of you, huh?” I said “Yes.” He then said “That’s weird. It hasn’t rained like that here.” I told him that it did not surprise me, as he was an hour and a half south of me and that it was not unheard of. Now, I could have been reading into his questions and comments, due to his past behavior, but it made me feel like he did not believe me. It even made me feel like I was lying, when I was telling the truth. It was almost like I was scared to be caught in a lie or something. Again, I was probably reading into this.

Later in the evening, I explained to my husband that my sister had invited us to our youngest nephew’s birthday party to take place on the 30th of this month. He did not say that we would go. Instead, he replied by asking who went to his birthday last year. I said “Me, my mother, maybe my sister’s friends Michelle and Louie, but that I could not really remember who else.” He then asked me if any of my friends had gone with me to his birthday last year. He meant people that I associated with while we were separated. I said “No.” Again, while I was telling the truth I felt like I was lying and that I was presently under a microscope. I was scared. I did not know where this conversation was headed. He said nothing more, but all was quiet for the next 20 minutes or so. Thank God, we began to watch a movie which took our minds off of things, because you could have cut the tension with a knife. Funny, this morning I think “Who cares who went with me to my nephew’s party last year?” Even if I had brought somebody (a man is who he is suggesting) with me to my nephew’s birthday party last year, we were separated! I had told him that I wanted a divorce, and that there was no chance of us reconciling! I had even told him that I did not want to waste any time in moving on with my life! I was upfront and honest during that time. I did not sugarcoat anything. I even said things to make him hate me, so that he would leave me alone. Maybe I should have actually had a boyfriend. Maybe I would not be feeling the way I am today, which is very close to the same way I felt in the past. Nonetheless, I did not bring anyone with me to my nephew’s party last year. So, why does he have a way of making me feel like I am lying, and that I had done something terribly wrong? He makes me feel like I cheated on him or something. I have to keep reminding myself that I did not cheat, as I am made to feel like I did. Again, even if I had, f**k him! He put us in that position. While I did have control of my own actions, and was the one who decided to leave him, I would never have wanted to leave my husband if he did not behave abusively toward me. Everyone tells you that your only option in the case of abuse should be to leave the situation, which is exactly what I did. I did the right thing! I left an abusive situation. Didn’t I? I should be feeling like all is well in my marriage, not like I should have to worry about the fact that I left my husband. Why should I feel guilty for leaving him? How dare he try to make me feel guilty for leaving him? I think he is succeeding in making me feel like I did something wrong by leaving him, and that anything I might have done while we were apart was wrong too. I am not even talking about dating other men. He cannot even stand the fact that I had conversations with persons of the opposite sex. He doesn’t even like the girls that I associated with throughout our separation. He says that they tried to get me to f**k another man. I just cannot understand where he comes up with this stuff. Again, even if my girlfriends were trying to set me up with someone else, why does that make them bad? All my friends ever did was try to make me happy. My friends always tried to get my mind off of my situation, and were there to dry up my tears. My friends helped me keep a clear head about my situation. They never tried to get me to do something that would ever hurt me. My friends are great friends, and I could never have gotten through my separation without them. I cherish my friends. However, now I am scared to talk to them. I want to tell myself that what my husband thinks about my friends does not matter. I want to talk to them, despite the fact that he does not like them, but feel as if I would be being defiant or deceitful toward my husband by doing so. Why should I not talk to my friends? They are good to me.

I wonder what would happen if I told my husband to stick it. I want to. I wonder what he would do if I talked to all of my friends every day, and spent at least one day each weekend with them. He doesn’t even want me to spend time with my family. According to my husband, by spending time with my mother every now and then, not even once a week, I am neglecting him.

I am messed up, huh?


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## Bluemoon7 (Jan 27, 2010)

First of all, I'm sorry that you are feeling so down and that you are stuck in this marriage. It's okay to feel like this sometimes, but please realize YOU ARE NOT STUCK IN THIS MARRIAGE. HE IS YOUR HUSBAND, NOT GOD. IF YOU SERIOUSLY WANT TO LEAVE, YOU CAN MAKE PLANS AND GET OUT. You have a job, you have family and friends that care about you, and there are lots of resources for women in your position if you need to take advantage of them. Lots of women leave these situations with less. 



crisis1008 said:


> This marriage is a roller coaster ride of emotions. I am trying to remember that I am not supposed to be scared of him this time around. I am trying to remember that I don't really care about what he thinks about my general actions on a daily basis. I am a good wife and person. There is nothing I do that would warrant my needing to be afraid of what my husband would think about my actions. If he gets mad at something that I have done throughout the day, or even in the past, then that is his problem. Right? Why should I cringe whenever he gets mad at every little thing?


Remember this. You see things clearly, but you don't seem to trust yourself. This is the result of the abuse. He's torn you down to the point that you don't trust your own instincts. You need to TRUST YOURSELF. There is nothing normal about being afraid of your husband. He is supposed too be your protector. 

Your H is incredibly insecure and clearly can't get past the separation and distrust he has of you. Can you live with him constantly questioning you about the separation, wanting you to take lie detector tests, insinuating that you are lying about your whereabouts? Your marriage isn't going to move forward as long as these past issues keep coming up. If you really insist on staying with this man, then you need to let him know that he needs to stop bring up past mistakes on a daily basis, acting jealous over nothing. 

I really don't see how this situation will get better without you taking drastic actions to change it. He is tearing you down and the longer you put up with it the worse it will get. Please realize that you do have the power, you just have to summon the courage and trust in yourself. Maybe doing some thinking about your future and what you really want out of your short time on earth will help. Perhaps you can come up with a plan that makes you feel empowered. You deserve a H that loves, respects you and treats you kindly. You do NOT have to stay with someone who is abusive.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

Part of my problem is that he does not view himself as abusive. He bases most of what he does on priciple. Sort of like an 'I did this for you (a favor), now you owe me.' kind of mentality. He believe this is how all people should do things. I have told him several times that this does not always work, as not all persons live by the same principles.

For instance, while we were separated, my husband did everything to get on my good side, such as do things for my sister and brother-in-law to make himself look good. He would go over to their house at midnight to snake a plugged drain, and even traded two of his pick-up trucks for one of theirs. Later, after I moved back home, our neighbor (swimming pool contractor) said that he would fix our pool for free if we would give him the broken-down pick-up truck that was in our yard. This was one of the trucks my husband had given to my sister. She had not yet picked it up after six months. My husband asked me to call my sister and ask for it back, reminding her of all that we had done for her in the past. I told him that I did not think that she would go for it. I know my sister and did not agree with his idea, but I did it anyway. My sister became extremey irate. She told me that I was selfish and an indian-giver. She said that if I wanted she would pay me back all that she owes me in payments of $100.00 a month. This broke my heart. I never do anything for anyone with the expectation that I would ever get anything in return, especially not my sister. I felt wrong in asking her to give the truck back. I told my husband that I felt that we were wrong for asking, and that nobody like to have things that were done for them thrown in their face. I know I would not take a favor from someone if I know that it would be expected that I pay them back. But he bases things on principle. He believes that if you do things for someone, they should return the favor. I do agree with this method of thinking, but do not think that you should ever do things for other with the intention of getting something in return. You should do things out of generosity, out of the goodness of your heart. Those types of actions get favors in return. You should never throw what you have done for someone in their face. That's just not fair.

A while ago, my husband pointed out that he had gone to the antique store with me while we were out of town. Now, it was really the only thing to do in Okeechobee, FL. He asked me if I would be trying to sit down and watch his football games with him, because he did what I wanted to do. While, he liked the antique store more than I did, I told myself that it would be good of me to try to enjoy this with him. So, I agreed. 

The trouble is my cousin invited me to go to the beach with her this Sunday. I was not thinking about the football game. All I can think about is that my husband makes it very hard for me to visit with friends and family, and desparately want to see all of them. I also just want to get out of the house without him at times. It's not that I do not love my husband, but sometimes I need to see other faces and need time alone. He became mad that I asked him if I could go to the beach in front of my cousin. He said that it put him in a position to say "Yes." Now, he is just upset that I am going at all. We went out to dinner last night at a local diner, where out of the blue he asked me what time I would be going to the beach on Sunday. My logical mind knows that he is just checking to see if I am still going at all. I know he knows that his asking me questions puts me on adge and frightens me a bit. He is expecting that I will cave and say that I am not going to go to the beach. I also know how he will react if I tell him such. He will say, "No, honey. Go to the beach. I am not being controlling and don't want this thrown in my face later.", knowing very well that it was his pressure that made me decide not to go. Well, this time I am not going to do that. I am not going to cave. However, he may just get his way due to a cold front that is moving in. I am sure my cousin (nor I) want to go to the beach when it is 60 degrees outside. It kinda defeats the purpose. I am thinking I should call my cousin to see if she would want to do something on Saturday night instead. Maybe go to a movie or something. I am certain that this will irritate my husband as well. I know that the football game is just a reason he found to be mad, so he did not have to say that he just did not want me to go anywhere with anyone else. I feel like I am trapped in the house.

Last Sunday, he woke up around 11:00 a.m. I had been up since 8:14 a.m. He watched 2 hours worth of true crime scene investigation shows and sports updates before he went back to bed. He finally woke up again a little after 2:00 p.m. I was itching to do something outdoors all morning, as it was another beautiful day in South Florida. However, I sat there watching these shows with him, despite how many times I had told him that I hate the murder shows. They hurt my heart and make me scared of the world around me. After he finally got dressed, we headed out the door to shop for a birthday gift for my step-daughter's 17th birthday, when I said "I did not realize you were going to sleep in. I should have gone yard-saling with my friend while you were asleep this morning. It would have beena perfect day." That's when he said "I am tired you you being gone one day every week." This is another figment of his imagination. I cannot remember the last time I was away from him for an entire day. I asked him what he was talking about, and asked when I was gone for an entire day. He said " I told you how I feel. I was not asking for a debate." I then became too scared to press him any further and shut my mouth. 

Why can't I spend an entire day with a family member or a friend? Why is that if I say I need to visit my mother, he gets that look of irritation on his face and then asks me when and how long I will be gone. The last time I visited with my mother, was two weeks ago. Because, I did not want to upset him, I thought I would kill two birds with one stone. I needed to go to the grocery store for one item. I told my husband I would take my mother with me. He told me not to be all day. I have learned over the years that this means that I have only between 1 and 1.5 hours. I asked my mother if she needed to go to the store and told her that I was just going in an out, as I needed only one item. She said okay and we went. After doing some research on my medical condition at my mother's house, and going through my mother's list at the store, over an hour had already passed. I became very high-strung and began screaming at my mother to hurry her up. I embarrased my mother in the store. She was very upset with me, but I could not tell her why I was so stressed. I just apologized to her over and over again on the way home, and begged her for her forgiveness. When I told my husband what I did to my mother he said "So, I suppose that's my fault." in that I-can't-believe-it tone. I just said "No. I didn't say that." He just said "Oh, okay." in that I-didn't-think-so tone.

Why is he doing this to me? How do I tell him what he is doing to me? Should I tell my family what is going on? It might make things worse.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

I am currently tryng to communicate my issues to my husband. He does not appear to be open or receptive. He just keeps saying that he is not controlling. I did not accuse him of this at all. I simply told him that I am having a problem with not being able to go anywhere and needing to be able to get out and see friends and family for more than just 1.5 hours every other week or so.

He is raising his voice, and has brought up the lie detector test issue again. I am not subjecting myself to this again. I told him that only a moron would want to take a polygraph.

I only began to communicate with him, because he said that if I am talking to others, including this forum or in couseling for any issues without telling him, then I am being deceitful. I think he sensed that I was troubled. I think he senses that I am speaking out again.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

Well, my husband told me that he did want me to go to the beach. He told me that he just wanted me to not want to go to the beach. He said that he wanted to feel like he was more important to me than my cousin was. This was only after I had finally caved and told him that I was going to call my cousin and cancel. When I insisted that I would cancel, he told me not to. He said that if I canceled, my cousin would know I was doing so because he was making me. He, once again, said that he was not controlling me and that I could go wherever I wanted to go. If that is the case, then why does he get that angry look in his eye whenever I mention going anywhere with anyone? Why does he ask so many questions about where I am going, who I am going with, what we will be doing and when I will be home. Shouldn't I just be able to say "Honey, I am going to go to the beach with my cousin on Sunday." and be done with it? I am not saying that he does not deserve to have an idea what time his wife will be home. Of course he does. That is, if I have an answer. If I am going to the beach, you can bet I will be gone for quite a while. All morning, and into the afternoon. I should definitely be home for dinner. To be able to tell him that I am going to be home at 2:00 p.m. puts me on the spot. It makes me feel under pressure. Now, I know what you're thinking. Why can't she just tell her husband that she is planning to be home around 2:00 p.m., and call him to tell him if she may be running late, or may stay out for a while longer? I know it should be just this simple, but I just can't explain how he does what he does to make me feel scared. His questions feel like a test. I feel like he is investigating me. Like, he needs to find something wrong with whatever I say. It makes me feel like I am doing something wrong. He will go a day or two without saying a word about anything, allowing me to begin to feel comfortable again. Then out of nowhere, during a completely unrelated discussion, he will ask me a question about something else.

If I was to tell him that I anticipated being home by 2:00 p.m., then called him to say that I am running late, or want to stay out a little longer, I would be drilled about why I am late or what is going on that makes me want to stay out. It couldn't simply be because I am having a good time. And, even if he was able to see that I was simply having a good time, then he will say that I am leaving him at home and neglecting him. I go everywhere with him! Not that I don't like spending time with my husband, but sometimes I just want to get away. However, I rarely do. If I did stay out longer than originally anticipated, I would absolutely be lectured about it at some later time. I would be told that I did not care that he sat in the house. I would be told that I was neglecting him by not spending time with him. I would be told that my cousin was a horrible person. I would be told that I prevented him from doing anything. I could never just be allowed to go out, have a good time, and feel good about it later.

I went to the beach with my cousin. We did not leave until 12:30 p.m. Before I left, I asked my husband if he wanted me to make him some sloppy joes for later. He acted like he was shocked to find out that I might not be home around dinner time, which would be about 6:00 p.m. He then told me that he did not want me to make anything. I was worried the entire time I was away from the house without him. I made sure to bring him home some beef brisket that my cousin had put in the oven before we left, so he could not complain about not eating. And, he would. When I am not home, due to visiting family or friends, he acts like he does not know how to even make a sandwich. He complains of starvation.

Anyway. I went to the beach and I am alive to tell the story.

My cousin want to try to go to the beach again this coming weekend, as we really did not get much time in due to the cooking of her beef brisket. I am too scared to ask.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

I feel guilty having posting anything negative today. Afterall, I was able to do what I wanted this weekend, despite how it left me feeling. Furthermore, the last two days have been alright at home. My husband will actually already have dinner taken care of by the time I get home. Somebody gave him a bunch of barbequed chicken, so he's gonna make so sides to go with it. I thanked him.


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## Bluemoon7 (Jan 27, 2010)

You need to do some thinking about what you want out of this life and this marriage. Are the things that bother you about your husband what YOU want to live with? Do YOU mind living in fear of your husband and how he will react next? Do YOU mind alienating your friends and family because your H feels insecure that you have people that care about you in your life? 

He has excuses or denials for his behavior, so his unwillingness to change seems pretty clear. So it's up to you to decide what you are willing to live with. Life is short and you deserve to be happy.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

Do I deserve to be happy? What if all of this is my fault and not my husband's?

I just get so confused. Every time I feel secure in the thought that he is trying to control me again, he says things that make me feel like my issues are petty. I mean, think about what my most current issue is. I tell him I want to visit a family member or friend, and he asks me what time I will be home. This seems so trivial. He absolutely should know what time I plan to go somewhere, and when I plan to be home. He is my husband. I keep trying to explain that it is not that he wants to know where and when I am going that bothers me. 

I am not trying to be evasive when I want to go somewhere. It's the feeling that I am left with when he asks. There is something about the ways he asks his questions, the look in his eyes when he asks, the tone in his voice and the silence that is left behind when I answer. The silence makes me feel scared, so I am compelled to ask if he is mad at me, or if I have done something wrong. He says that he is not mad and that I haven't done anything wrong. However, he follows that up with an almost wining response like "It's just that I want to spend time with my wife.", "You are never home.", "I feel neglected.", or "I just need to know how to plan my day." Each of these would be a reasonable response if I really did not spend much time with my husband, really was never home, really was neglecting him, or if he really did ever go anywhere other than his brother's house on game day. 

This is where I get confused. He makes me feel guilty… like I am truly neglecting him. He told me that he has asked half a dozen people if it is bad to ask your wife where she is going, when she will be going or when she will be coming home. He acts like this is my problem. Of course, this is not bad. Of course, he should know this information. However, I have explained to him that this absolutely is not my problem. I have explained to him that I feel like he does not want me to go anywhere. I have explained to him that I feel like he does not want me to see my family or friends. I have explained to him that I am scared to be gone, or tell him that I may be gone for more that about two hours, elaborating that it feels like this particular two hour time period cannot take place more than once per week, and even that gets tricky for me. I have even gone so far as to ask him to tell me when I can spend a decent amount of time with my family or friends. He just got pissed off at that. He just continually says that he is not controlling me.

I mentioned in a previous post that I finally spoke with him about this particular issue last Friday. I finally opened up and told him that I am scared to go anywhere. He just used his louder, deeper man-voice to dominate the conversation. My issue was never heard. Instead, what he heard was an attack on him. It became an issue of my accusing him of being controlling again. He continually tells me that he cannot help the way I feel about something. He tells me that everything is all in my head and that I am accusing him of things that he is not doing. He then tells me that he is unhappy. 

He continued this last night, just before we began to watch a movie. I don't even remember how the issue came up. He tells me that it bothers him that I am accusing him of being controlling. He tells me that I am not really moving on from the things that happened in the past. He says that he just can't keep dealing with being accused of things anymore. He adds that he is depressed by this. 

I told him that I was not trying to hurt him, and that I don't want him to be unhappy. I told him that I am just having a hard time trusting my own feelings. I told him that I am just trying to trust that what I feel is actually real. I explained that I was trying to trust my instincts and that I was really confused. He said that I obviously cannot trust my instincts, and that if that was the case then maybe he should trust his own instincts. He was insinuating that I had slept with someone while we were separated. I just became shocked and could not get any response out of my mouth. He then said "Let me ask you a question. Does your sister see her friends and family often?" 

Mind you, my sister has a full-time job, school, and two toddler boys. Even if she did not visit with people much, it would not be because her husband did not want her to. It would be because she is just too busy. I said “Yes.”, and he flat out called me a liar. He said that my sister does not visit my mother often. I explained that I was not a liar, and that while my sister does not visit my mother often, she sees her friends Michelle and Louie, and her niece (his own daughter) a couple of times a week. He still called me a liar. He rationalized this by saying I had implied that my sister visits my mother often. I again told him that I did not imply this any anyway, and that I simply answered his question truthfully. 

He asked me another question, but he continually cut me off each and every time I tried to answer the question. I told him that he had asked me a question, but would not allow me to respond and that he kept cutting me off. He said "You mean like you always do to me?" I told him that I am human and may cut him off from time to time, but that I always try not to and as soon as he tells me that I cut him off I stop talking and let him continue. He said "So do I." I kept trying to answer his initial question, but by this point I had forgotten what the question was and told him that I was just confused. He then began telling me that this discussion was pointless, as it was turning out like all of our discussions always do when they are supposed to be about his feelings. He said that he was not going to allow me to turn this around to be about me. I tried to explain that I was not doing that. I tried to talk but couldn't anymore. I just started stuttering. "B-b-b-b-b-b-but I-I-I-I-I..." He just walked away from me to smoke a cigarette outside, as I said "I did not do anything wrong. I don't understand why you are mad at me. I know I did not do anything wrong." He just said “I’m sure you didn’t. You never do.” I was trying very hard not to fall further in that state of confusion. I was trying hard to trust myself. 

When he came back inside, we simply sat down to watch the movie. There was much tension for about the first half hour of the movie, but it eventually subsided when our minds became occupied with the movie. During a pause-break, I asked him for a hug. When we hugged I did not want to let go. I wanted to break down and cry, but held back the overwhelming desire to do so. I did not want to resurrect the conversation. I am sure it will come up again.

What is wrong with me? Why can't I trust myself? Even when I feel like I am being wronged, I wind up feeling like I am the problem. We told each other that we needed to be able to communicate when we reconciled. I am trying to do just that. It is so hard for me. When I do open up, it seems like any issue that I raise turns out to be my own fault, a fabrication I have made up, or my own issue to deal with. Since we have reconciled, I cannot think of one issue that I have raised that my husband has taken responsibility for... not one time where my husband has apologized, acknowledged my feelings were real, and that he would try to do better. I again ask myself if it is possible that my issues are not his fault. What if he is right? What if these are all issues I have made up in my own head. What if I am only looking for the negative in him, as he claims? What if I do only think of myself? What if I am self-centered? What if I do play the victim? What if I am a drama queen? 

He has told me in the past that everyone we know is onto me. He has said that everyone knows that I am a drama queen, have emotional issues, and have to play the victim. These comments have made me leery of everyone around me. I always wonder if my family members or closest friends are thinking this of me when I am talking to them about anything that is currently bothering me. I really don't know what is wrong with me. Everyone says that I am being abused, but what if I am not? What if it really is all in my head? What if I do have emotional issues? What if I am a drama queen? What if I am playing the victim? How will I ever know? Who can I really trust? Can I trust my family? No, past experience has taught me that my own family members will turn on me. 
My Brother-in-law gave my husband information about me while we were separated. My mother has put my secret credit card statements in the mail addressed to my husband when she was mad at me once. My friends who are close to both of us may view me as having to play the victim and overly emotional. And, my other close friends who are not associated with my husband only have my side of the story. I trust my father, but he too only has one side of the story. My husband says that if he were to tell people only his side of the story, they would tell him that I abused him and that he should leave me too. 

I want to make sure that I am not making up or exaggerating anything I am feeling. In addition, I get scared of talking too much, or regret when I have because the result is always the listener developing a hatred for my husband.

I just don't know what is right anymore. If I am the one who is wrong here, then I certainly do not want to end my marriage. I would want to get help in being a good and sane person.

I just wish there was someone out there who really could clear all of this up for me. I would say that person is someone I really trusted, but I think I truly trust no one. I don't even trust myself. I just want all of the pain and confusion inside of my heart and mind to go away.

I feel like I am such a whiner. There is no part of my marriage is even remotely as bad as it was in the past. I should be able to deal with little issues, right?

I meant what I said, Bluemoon7. I really need help. I think I really am screwed. If not by my husband, by my own self. You can't make decisions in life when you trust no one, not even yourself. I cannot make any moves right now. I really need counseling, but am afraid to go and cannot afford the co-payments right now.

Even if I was to get three visits with a professional through my Employee Assistance Program, I would be deceitful in not telling my husband (and I just can't tell him). I could bring him with me, but don't think I could let out all of my feelings out, as I would be scared of his reaction. He would either convince the counselor that I was a nut, or he would convince me that I was a nut later on, or both, or worse. What would three visits do anyway?

When I reconciled with my husband, I had such high hopes. I still have high hopes, but I feel crazy. I really need to somehow solidify that these issues are real. I need to somehow be absolutely sure that I am not the one creating these problems. I need to make sure what I am feeling is the result of real events taking place, and not some sort of insecurity inside of me. How do I do this?

Think about it. My husband is not hitting me or calling me names. He does not tell me that I am not allowed to go somewhere. If this is all due to my own insecurities, then what am I so insecure about?

Who is telling the truth here? Is it me, or is it my husband? I can't figure any of it out anymore.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

You guys must be getting so sick of my lengthy posts. I am tired.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

I just want to know how my husband and I can be happy together.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

I should just write a friggin book.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

Crisis,

I have to agree with Bluemoon7, add you are in an essentially abusive marriage that has destroyed your self esteem and taken joy from your life.

I would leave, this isn't a marriage, it is a prison sentence. 

Some of your friends and family may disapprove, but it is you who are living in this H***, let them go tut, tut, as much as they want, they are not real friends, your disapproving family more interested in image than reality. 

Life is too short to live the way you've been living, your h shows no sign of changing, seems he gets worse with time.

Were I you I'd get as much counseling as I could, find a phone number for a woman's shelter and see what help they can provide. You might want to call 311, in some states you can help at this number.



Bluemoon7 said:


> You need to do some thinking about what you want out of this life and this marriage. Are the things that bother you about your husband what YOU want to live with? Do YOU mind living in fear of your husband and how he will react next? Do YOU mind alienating your friends and family because your H feels insecure that you have people that care about you in your life?
> 
> He has excuses or denials for his behavior, so his unwillingness to change seems pretty clear. So it's up to you to decide what you are willing to live with. Life is short and you deserve to be happy.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

See the problem is today is actually a good day. And, I hope the day stays good. I just want to feel happy and healthy. Today, I have spoken with my husband. He is in a good mood right now. We have told each other that we love each other, and wished each other a good day. We have spoken throughout the day about what our days have been like. Today is good. I just wish yesterday and tomorrow were good days too.

I really need to get out of this funk. I have considered a women's shelter. I have considered not telling any of my friends or family if I leave him again. Then again, he will just tell them for me.

When I say that I cannot trust my family, I don't mean that they do not want me to leave my husband. They can't stand my husband for what he has done to me. The problem is that my mother is an extremely irrational person who likes to get even with you if you piss her off. And, I guess my brother-in-law is either stupid in thinking you can give an abusive man information about his wife that just left him, or his just an a--hole. I am not sure which is which in his case. All of _our_ friends just want to see a fairy tale ending, and all of _my_ friends will just want me to stay completely away from him.

Again, I still don't know whether or not my concerns are even real at this point.

I just want to feel like my husband loves me, cares for me and respects me. I just don't feel that. He absolutely does provide. 

Recently, the tile in our house needed replacing, so we decided to go with wood floors within our budget. My husband even went so far as to by the higher-quality, more beautiful flooring which was out of our budget as a birthday gift to me. I love my wood floors, and thought it was very nice. But, then theres that part of me that asks myself if it was really a gift at all. I can't take it with me if I leave him. He just got a prettier house. Then, I realize just how shallow that method of thinking is.

Bottom line... I got pretty wood floors for my birthday and today is a good day thus far. These are the things that keep me hanging on.


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## Bluemoon7 (Jan 27, 2010)

Yes, you do deserve to be happy. So does your H. Together or not. 

I can see why he isn't thrilled about you getting marriage advice from outsiders. If he is abusive and controlling, the advice might interfere. If not, he might not like the idea of someone else involved in his marriage problems. However, TAM is a great place, the people here try to be very helpful and we do tend to be pro marriage. We wouldn't be on this site if we weren't the kind of people willing to do the work to try to make our marriages a success. 

Both of you have very deep insecurity. You're right that you can't really trust yourself when you aren't even sure what you think. Maybe check out the local library for some books on gaining self esteem. And do something that makes you feel good about yourself at least once a week. Work-out, read, craft, whatever you like. Whether or not you realize it now, the power to change your situation is with you. No you can't change him, but you can change you. And maybe he will change for the better too. 

It's interesting that you are willing to believe what he says people said about you, but you aren't willing to believe what your family says about him. The fact is that no one knows the situation like you and he do. Their perceptions could be completely inaccurate. (BTW, I'm guessing he told you what people said as a way to hurt you when you were arguing? That's not right.) However, if your father is willing to tell you that your H is controlling, he probably is right. He has no incentive for telling you this and it probably took him a lot of thinking and being concerned to say something to you. 

Obviously the way things keep going isn't working. So, something needs to change. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. 

I would suggest that from now on you set up guidelines about what you will do with free time, friends, etc. Establish time for each other and for each of you to do what you enjoy. Maybe you agree to spend Saturday's doing things together, but Sunday he can go to his brother's and you can do what you want. Agree that you'll be home in time for dinner and stick to it. 

If you are reading into his behavior and thinking/seeing something is bothering him, like you going out with your cousin, stop reacting unless he actually says something. If he wants to sulk, sigh, whatever it is, just let him and do your best to ignore him. If he says something, be calm and rational and don't feed into the insecurity or fear. If you already have an agreement and plans, just stick with that and reiterate that you don't neglect him, you do spend time with him, etc. 

The word control seems to have taken on a life of it's own at your house. Maybe you can agree to abolish this word for the time being. It might help you see more clearly whether or not he is controlling. 

The fear you describe is worrisome. It's not normal to fear your husband. Usually that is an indication of abuse. Why do you fear him? He is supposed to be your partner, the person you love and trust the most. 

It seems to really bother you that he acts accusatory toward you. So, you need to let him know that his continuing to do this really bothers you and makes you question trying to be with him. That you can't move on with him if he keeps obsessing about the past. That you are not willing to face his constant suspicions. If he can't accept this and improve, then he is abusive and you should think about whether you want to spend your life with someone who insists on rubbing your face in the past. 

In the end, it's your life and only you can decide what you want out of it. But first you need to get to a place where you trust and believe in yourself.


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## christine30 (Mar 23, 2010)

After reading and sort of skimming your post, its like no matter how much support system you may have, you made up your mind to be with him, You are use to this emotional and phsical abuse - you are so use to it, that you do not know anything else, or want anything better for yourself. You have lost so much of your dignity with this ******* that you call a husband that he knows that and that you allow it, he will continue. He seems to be an insecure person, and having you succumb to his demands just makes him feel more powerful over you. I dont know why you are complaining about what he does, when you yourself goes back not once but twice, and i think it will happen again. 
why are you having someone dictate your happiness and freedom. If he doesn't trust you, why are you still around him, if he doesn't trust or respect you NOW , he will nevver learn to until it is taken from him. 

Whatever you decide- think about 5 years from now, will you be happy and content.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

I thank you both from the bottom of my heart for listening. Just having someone there when you need it really makes a person feel a little better.

My instincts tell me that my husband still needs to control, and that he is controlling me. I am trying very hard to trust myself.

I just want to make sure that no matter what, whoever is listening has both sides of the story.

I have explained so much of both my concerns and what my husband says his concerns are, I feel I can trust the opinions that I am blessed with here on this forum.

I am so greateful for everyone who has been taking the time to try to help me. Again, Thank you, Bluemoon7 and Christine30.


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## christine30 (Mar 23, 2010)

Chris1008 - you are welcome, but I hope that whatever decision yuu make remember to communicate, resepect and live life as content as you want. 

But remain strong, and know that you are self worthy of love and happiness in your life.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

I have left my husband five times... I think. I am beginning to lose track now.


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## jeffreygropp (Jun 9, 2010)

Simple question: Are you happy? This is the ONLY thing that matters. Arguments, who is right or wrong, who does what who is.... who cares? Are you happy?

Be honest with yourself.

Someone posed the same question to me 3 months ago. I said no. I am still not happy. I am leaving tonight.

It takes time. My gut says you won't make it much longer. I wish you the best.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

Jeffrey,

I truly admire your strength and ability to maintain clarity in a situation that in volves the heart so much.

The last time I left my husband, I was gone for 10 months and did not intend to return. Each time I had left hom before that never consisted of more than 2 weeks. I know that the next time I leave, I won't be going back. I feel like I have to give this time around an honest and hard go at it. I feel like I have to be fair in assessing the changes that have taken place and supposedly added quality to my marriage. I feel like I can't just leave just because my husband may have made a few mistakes. During our separation I asked my therapists if people like my husband could change. My therapist said that, while most don't, they can. She said that it would take years, but that they absolutely can if they really want to and truly recognize and admit to their abusive behavior and tendencies. My husband said that he recognized that he was abusive and that he took full responsibility for the problems in our marriage. While I was not sure if he could really change, I saw a glimmering light of hope. I chose to trust him.

It's like I said, things are not nearly as bad as they were in the past. I just see some pattern behavior. Then again, maybe I am looking for it. Of course, I am looking for it. I just keep hoping that the behavior he has been exhibiting lately is just a minor setback. I am hoping that he will soon come to see what he is doing. You can't change overnight, right? Remember, the therapist said it could take years. I am hoping that he is just still working on himself. I don't expect perfection. I know that people get mad sometimes. I don't want perfection. That would mean that I would always be inferior. I just want to be treated right. I just don't want to be scared anymore. I don't want to cry anymore. I want to feel like his wife, but also like it is okay to be myself. I want my husband to view me as his equal. I don't feel equal.

By the way, I have decided that I am going to try to get my husband used to my being out with others from time to time. I have planned to go yard-saling with my girlfriend early Saturday morning. I am a little scared to tell him, but I have decided to act like a grown up and remember that my husband is not my keeper. I am going to try to ignore his looks and intimidating tone of voice. I am going to act like I don't even notice it, and that there is nothing wrong.

Jeffrey, I truly wish you luck in your journey beginning this evening. I can tell you that while leaving my husband with the intention of never returning last time was difficult but quite freeing and invigorating. I was able to be myself for the first time in a long time. I had realized that I was not the problem in my marriage, and that the marriage was bad for me at the time. While, I did miss my husband many a nights, my freedom and sanity felt worth more. I was finally thinking clearly. I am hoping now that I did not make a mistake in giving my husband another chance. I was unsure to begin with. I think my problem with the idea of leaving this time, while love is a factor, is more that I cannot feel I have played the part of the fool and must give him a good amount of time without criticism, if possible.

Good luck to you. I know that I tend to seem flaky right now, but remember that we all see more clearly when assessing things objectively, rather than subjectively. What I mean is, while I may not be able to see what is wrong with my situation, I might be able to see clearly in your situation. I am a good listener, and you are more than welcome to PM me anytime you feel you need to speak with someone who has been in your shoes once.

Remember, being away can make you feel very lonely. When you are feeling down, occupy yourself, get out of the house or simply jump on this forum for some company. The people here were always there for me.

Keep me posted, will ya?


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## Bluemoon7 (Jan 27, 2010)

You definitely seem to be seeing things clearer. I'm glad you are realizing what you want (to be an equal, and yourself) and are going to start changing your behavior and stop reacting so much to his. The need to give it all you have before finally giving up is understandable. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

Thank goodness for the last couple of days that have seemed better to me. While this may be because I have not been anywhere other than home, it still has given me the opportunity to have some time to calm my fears and emotions. I just keep trying to remember that I have done and am doing nothing immoral or neglectful toward my husband by going to visit a friend or family member every now and then. It is only a reality that I must have contact with others outside of the home and workplace. This is hiss issue, not mine. I have nothing to worry about. If my husband decides to leave me over something like this, then I will know that our marriage is not about love. It would be his need to control me. If my husband continues to have a problem with this, that means that he is upset that I am not doing what he wants. It means that he is upset due to losing control. It means that he is upset due to his not coming to terms with the fact that we will not be playing the roles of puppet and puppet-master. And, if that is the case, then I should go ahead and leave him.

I should not fear him and refuse to fear him. The best thing I can do as a wife is give my husband the opportunity to be okay with my having a little bit of a life. Right? It would only be fair of my to give him the chance to treat me as his wife, and not his prisoner. Maybe, he will suprise me at some point. Hopefully, soon.

Thanks you for recognition, Bluemoon7. Believe me, It is hard to tell myself that I am not scared. The jitters are still there. I'm still gonna do it though, because I should be living my life just as I always envisioned... Bound by marriage, but free to be my own person.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

Okay, so I found the opportunity to tell my husband that I was going yard-sailing with my girlfriend (our close friend).

Last night, my husband and I were getting along wonderfully. I mean so great that he was even wrestling me to the ground and being extra playful. We began to watch a movie (our almost nightly routine). All was great. We got about half way through the movie, when we decided to have a pause-break. While, we sat outside on the front porch, he asked me if I had heard from Diana (our close friend). I said "Yes. I have. As a matter of fact, she wants me to go yard-saling with her early this Saturday morning. We're gonna leave the house by 7:00 a.m., because she wants to go to the Gables area and most yard sales usually end between noon and 1:00 p.m., so we should be back around that time." The comfortable talking, joking and laughing that had been going on between us throught the entire evening abruptly stopped. 

All of a sudden there was an akward silence. My husband had stopped talking anymore, and any time I made a comment about the movie (acting as if I did not know what was wrong) I got nothing but short, cold responses from him in an irritated tone. It is normal for he and I to comment about the events taking place throughout a movie, so it wasn't like I was being annoying or anything. I just couldn't take it anymore. My heart was pounding. I became a little scared.

I just knew he was being an a--. So, after a while, I asked him if he was okay. He said that he was fine. I tried to be ever so easy when I tried to communicate what I was feeling to him. I said in an almost pleading tone "Honey?" He very shortly and agitatedly replied "Yes?" in a huff. Just to describe his demeanor, when he answers me he does not even move his head toward my direction. He only moves his eyes toward me, in such a way that lets me know that wherever his head is facing at that moment is more important, if he even looks at me at all.

I then said "I can't help but feeling like you are mad at me for something, and it makes me feel a lot of anxiety." He then told me again, very agitatedly "I told you I am not mad." in that I can't-believe-it tone. He then followed-up by saying, "I just see that you have made plans for the weekend again." again in that I can't-believe-it tone of voice. I said "But, honey. I told you earlier that I am going to spend Sunday with you watching the game. I told you I was going yard-saling, who I was going with, where we were going, what time we would be leaving, and around what time we would be coming back. What have I done wrong?" He then said "You did not tell me any of that." I just said very calmly and almost pleadingly "Yes, I did, honey. I told you exactly all of that." He just claimed that I did not once again. 

The rest of the evening was silent and uneasy. Another night of the air being filled with tension. When we went to bed, he gave me a half-a-- pop kiss upon my asking, then turned away from me. I told him that a loved him very much and he did not respond. It took me quite some time to get over my anxiety and fall asleep.

This morning, my husband called me while I was on my way to work as usual. However, this morning he kept his tone in a very dry short and annoyed tone. Why call me if you don't really want to talk to me? I tried to act as though I did not notice his tone and short comments. I acted as though everything was fine, even telling him about one of my boss's annoying habits. He did not really chime in. He just kept up with the short one-word responses. I was out of things to talk about, so the akward silence came about again. After about a minute or so of silence, and my making empty comments about the traffic and being choked by my seatbelt, my husband very shortly said "Well, I'll let you go. Have a good day. Love ya. Bye." I just said "Uh, okay. I love you too. Bye, honey." And with that, the conversation ended.

I am trying very hard to get through this. I know it seems like so little, but this time proves that the issue is not that I am not telling him where I am going, who I am going with, when I am leaving, or when I am coming home. It proves that he definitely has an issue with my going anywhere, with anyone at all. Why is he doing this?

Why doesn't he want me to do anything with anyone other than him? Why must we be joined at the hip? We are a married couple... not siamese twins.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Crisis, the behavior you are describing sounds like the classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Whether your H's traits are sufficiently severe to meet the diagnostic criteria is something only a professional can determine. Even if they are below the diagnositc level, however, strong BPD traits can make your life miserable.

BPDers (i.e., those with strong BPD traits) typically suffered a trauma in early childhood that (together with heredity) caused them to develop a great fear of abandonment and engulfment -- as well as an inability to trust anyone. The result is that a BPDer becomes extremely controlling over his spouse -- to the point of even being jealous of time spent with other family members or friends -- just like your H. Another reason the BPDer does not want his W around family or friends is that it is far easier to control her if she does not have a good support network.

On top of that, a BPDer carries an enormous amount of anger inside from childhood. Significantly, that anger can be easily triggered by innocent comments or actions. Indeed, it is so easily triggered that -- to avoid starting another fight accidentally -- you spend your entire marriage walking on eggshells. This is why the most popular BPD book (targeted to the nonBPD partners) is called "Stop Walking on Eggshells." Another hallmark of BPD is the push-you-away and pull-you-back cycle you describe as occurring with your H. (I describe that cycle in my posts at the links below.)

You say that you are so confused, Crisis. Consider yourself lucky. Living with a BPDer is so disorienting that many -- if not most -- spouses start to feel they are losing their minds and going crazy. This is why one website (targeted to those spouses) uses the tag line, "Welcome to Oz." A BPDer will try to control you by using disorientation, saying that black is white and red is green. The ex-partners and ex-spouses of BPDers call those attempts to confuse you "gaslighting." It is named after the classic 1944 movie, "Gaslight," in which the H makes his new bride (Ingrid Bergman) feel she is going crazy so he can have her committed and then run off with her family jewels.

Almost the only people who will stay in a marriage with a BPDer for years are those like you and me who are caregivers to the extreme (what psychologists call "codependent"). The danger for us, then, is that even after we manage to leave the BPDer we married, there is a good chance we will go out and find another just like the one we left -- so we have someone to take care of. In my case, I took care of my BPD exW for 15 years. In your case, you've returned to a toxic relationship with a BPDer for 5 or 6 times -- always with the same man, so far. It therefore is important that you learn more about typical BPD traits so you know the red flags once you get out of your current marriage. It also is important that you learn more about your codependence, which is your contribution to the toxic marriage.

If you are ready to read more about it, Crisis, I suggest you start with my posts in GTRR's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/anxiet...depressed-its-always-my-fault.html#post188319 and Gladiator's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-c...nhappy-violent-depressed-wife.html#post186216. I suggest those two threads because my posts are fairly short and compact, providing a good overview of what it is like living with a BPDer. A far lengthier discussion is available in LVS's long thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...8-years-marriage-what-ca-i-do.html#post142257. Like you, LVS had been beaten down by an abusive H for many years and she finally decided to leave him. If you find that information helpful, Crisis, I would be glad to try to answer any questions you have and to suggest good online articles. Take care.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

Thank you for your insight and advice, Uptown. I just got off the phone with my husband and it came to a bit of a head.

I called him to inform him of the changes that I made to our medical benefits under my employer. We had already discussed this, but I added him to my Aflac policy so that he would receive alternative compensation if he was hospitalized for his lethal heart condition. He was very happy about this and thanked me. However, just before we were about to hang up he asked me if I had called our friend and canceled going yard-saling this Saturday. I told him that I had not. He said “Good.” Then added that he did not want me to call and cancel, as I always say I will. I thought this might be an opportunity to discuss the matter with him. I told him that this made me feel stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Now, I know that I put myself in this position by agreeing to go with my friend. I suspected… scratch that. I knew that my husband would have a problem with it, but I am trying not to let myself fall off the face of the earth. Granted, putting myself stuck between a rock and a hard place should not be one of the consequences of my going with a friend yard-saling during the morning hours on a weekend.

My husband told me that he did not want me to cancel due to my having a way of turning everything back around on him to make him look controlling. He said that if I canceled because he did not want me to go, then my friend would think he was controlling. Basically, what he was saying was that I was setting him up to look controlling and that he absolutely was not. He told me that he has explained to me what his feelings are about my making plans to go places, and that I just don’t care how he feels. He said he thinks that I am just disregarding anything that bothers him. I told him that I do care, which is why I am always scared of going to visit with friends or family. He just told me that I did not care, again. I told him, as I have told him before, that I truly do not understand what is bothering him. He said that he has already explained it. I told him that I was telling the truth and that I really did not understand. I asked him to please explain it to me again. He told me that he does not have a problem with me visiting with friends or family. He said that he has told me that he feels like I am gone every weekend. I told him that this was part of what I did not understand. I asked him if he would please listen to me for a moment and not cut me off. I tried to speak. I asked him when I had been gone. He said that I was just gone last weekend. I reminded him that I was only out for about five hours on Sunday visiting with my cousin for the first time in over four months, and asked him when I had been gone before that. He said that I am always visiting with my sister. _What!?!?!?!_ I explained that he was incorrect and that I had seen my sister maybe twice since we reconciled back in May (I think it was May), and I saw her for maybe an hour each time. Then he accused me of visiting with my mother. I then told him that the last time I had seen my mother was for dinner with him a few weeks ago, and that the only real time I had spent with my mother was after she was in a motorcycle accident in the beginning of August, and that was to clean her house for two nights in a row. I did take her to the store with me one time about a month ago, where I was out for about 1.5 hours. He disagreed and just began yelling over me at this point. I tried to continue speaking, but he just would not let me. He said that it bothers him that I would make plans without consulting with him first, as maybe he had plans for us… maybe he wanted to go to our lake house for the weekend. But, I know now that he did not have plans to go away for the weekend, as just last night he told me that he wanted to go to the movies tonight. It’s Friday, and whenever we go to the lake house we always have to leave on Friday night right after work. By the way, before we went to bed last night I felt like he would take away the movie theatre to punish me for angering him, so I asked him if we would still be going to the movies. He said that he did not know, and that things change. Anyway, even if he did want to go to the lake house, I could simply call my girlfriend and tell her that I would not be able to go, as I did not realize that my husband had plans to go out of town. There’s nothing wrong with that. Everyone knows that if your spouse wants to do something with you, it usually takes precedence over others. If I had canceled for this reason, my friend would not have thought that my husband was controlling me. She would have that that my husband wants to take his wife away for the weekend. She would probably wish her husband would do the same. He just kept yelling and would not allow me to speak. He finally said that he had to go because he was at work, and we hung up.

You mention the fear of abandonment. According to my husband, I have abandoned him several times by leaving him. I guess this is true. Maybe I am the cause of his irrationality. It’s just that I felt I had to leave each and every time. He was not nice to me. He was very mean to me. I loved him so much. I never wanted to abandon him. I felt forced by him to do so. What’s terrible is that this is happening all over again. How stupid does it sound to say that I am thinking of leaving my husband over the fact that he does not want me to go somewhere… over the fact that he wants to spend time with me?

The way he expresses himself and leaves me stumped for words, makes me start to re-evaluate my method of thinking. I try to put myself in his shoes. I begin to feel like I am wronging him, when I know for a fact that I am not doing anything wrong.

Why can’t he see? Why can’t he just stop and listen? Why can’t he consider my feelings when I tell him that I am confused… when I tell him that I feel like I cannot go anywhere… when I tell him that I am scared… when I tell him that I do not understand his reasoning? I am not lying to him. Why would he think I was?

Maybe next time I want to go somewhere, I should give him the benefit of the doubt, and call him to ask if he has plans first. If I do this for a while, maybe I can determine if he tries to keep me so busy that I don’t have time to go anywhere else. Maybe I am wrong. I sort of hope I am wrong.

I will read your other posts, Uptown. Fear of abandonment does ring a bit of a bell. Another thing that rings a bell comes from my father. My father told me a few times that I was being gaslighted and explained to me what that meant. I did watch the movie. I do not think my husband is _purposefully_ trying to confuse me or make me feel crazy, but I certainly am and certainly do at times. I am sure you have gathered this from my many posts which would exhibit my lack of clarity and expressed confusion.

Again, thank you.


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## Bluemoon7 (Jan 27, 2010)

Uptown could be onto something. I'm not very knowledgeable about BPD, but there do seem to be some traits that stand out.

I'm proud of you for trying so hard not to play his games about your weekend plans. His reaction is NOT NORMAL. You know that. Your perception seems to be getting clearer and clearer.

I'll tell how it goes when I want to make plans with my mom or friends. Usually I talk to the people I want to make the plans with first. Then I tell my H "my mom wants to go to the museum Friday" or "I think the ladies and I are going to go have some drinks on Saturday." I give him the chance to object or whatever, but he never does. He usually seems glad that I am socializing and doing things. He doesn't give me sh!t about neglecting him or try to guilt me about how he will starve. Of course I don't neglect him and we do make spending time together a priority.

You could try giving him the chance to object, but I don't think him having a say or possibly making plans for your weekend is the issue. He wants you to be where he is. Period.

Also, I've been in the position of your friend, and I bet she does see your H as very controlling and probably abusive. I bet she worries that you might "get in trouble" for spending time with her. And that she probably worries about how he treats you and your happiness as well. It's incredibly difficult to watch your friend be controlled and abused by there spouse. Sometimes you can't continue to be friends because they can't stand watching you be treated so badly. It gets old having your friend cancel plans because her H won't let her go. Which feeds right into what the controlling and abusive spouse wants- you to have no support system. 

It does seem rather curious that your H is worried about being seen as controlling by your friend. Why would he worry if he isn't? Just something to think about.... 

Is your H in counseling? He really should be. 

You wouldn't be getting divorced because your H won't let you do things with your friends and family. It would be because he is controlling, abusive, and causes you to live with great anxiety and fear. 

What does he do to make you want to spend your life with him? Life is short and you spend an awful lot of time in this cycle of arguing, walking on eggshells, and trying to find peace of mind.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

You are absolutely right, Bluemoon7. I tell my friend Diana everything. I met her through my husband. She has known him for 20 years and watched him abuse his prior wife, who wound up cheating on him iwth his own brother. She knows what he is like. She is the one who came to me the first time she noticed something was awry, but I was scared to talk to her because she was his best friend's wife. I was scared she would have a loyalty to him and tell on me. I did finally open up to her one day, and it was the best thing I ever did. She was the one who showed me that I was being abused. However, she loves my husband and has always had a way of truly remaining unbiased. She has always tried to help me see anything that I may have been viewing incorrectly out of emotion, and has always pointed out just where I was being wronged. It was she who turned me onto articles and websites referencing abuse. About one hour ago, she suspected I might get in trouble if I went with her tomorrow morning. She told me she thought we should cancel, due to it probably doing me more harm than good. I told her that I couldn't cancel, as he woul get mad at me. She concocted some scheme that she was sick and told me to tell him that coincidentally she called me to cancel due to having just got over strep throat and being afraid of relapsing. He bought it.

Now, before I even spoke with my friend, I had called my husband and told him that I was thinking about everything he said. I told him that if the reason he was angry was simply that I did not ask him if he had any plans before accepting the offer to go anywhere, then I absolutely had no problem consulting with him first before accepting the offer. I would simply tell whoever was extending the invitation "Let me just find out if my husband had any plans that he was considering first." No biggie. Spouses should always be considered first. They are more important. My husband said "That's all I ask.", but I fear this is not true. So I tell my husband that I just need to know that there will be plenty of times that I will be able to go when there are no plans. He said that there may be times when there are no plans but that he may just want to spend time with his wife at home and that maybe he does not want her to go anywhere. Now, we all just want to spend time with our spouses at home from time to time, so I have no problem with this either. I just want to make sure it won't be everytime and expressed such to him. I don't know how the conversation got turned around again, but he began telling me that he was sick of my accusing him of being controlling. Now, while this is my concern, I had not accused him of it. I had only told him that I feel like he does not want me to go anywhere. I told him that I had never said he was controlling, and that I was simply trying to communicate with him and tell him how I was feeling. He got into his feelings and told me once again that I dismiss his feelings. He told me that he felt neglected. I told him that I knew that I was not neglecting him. I finally broke down into tears in my car in the Walmart parking lot. I could not even speak without shreiking. He told me that I always to this so that he winds up giving in. I asked what he was giving in to, and reminded him that I was the one who called him to give in to what he wanted. I told him that the only one who was giving in to anything was me. He said that everything is always turned around to be about me and my feelings. I told him this was not true. At some point during the conversation I even said to him "Don't you think that if I am feeling this way, there must be some reason for it." I told him that I was the one who was sitting at work considering his feelings, and that he has said or done nothing that would suggest that he had considered mine. I told him that I consider him each and every time that I do not visit my mother, when I want to so much. I began to cry and just yelled that I missed my mom. He did not seem to care and just kept saying that he is the one who winds up giving in and that everything is alway turned around to be about me. NO IT"S NOT! I just told him that I was calling Dr. Brody, the therapist we saw during our separation, said "Bye.", and hung up. I called the therapist and set an appointment for this Monday at 6:00 p.m. and told him I was not sure if my husband would be attending. I then called my husband and asked him if we had any plans for Monday night. He said "Monday?" I said "Yeah. Monday." He then said "I don't think so. Why?" I told him that I had set an appointment with Dr. Brody, told him what time and asked him if he wanted to come. He said "Uh, yeah, I guess. Subsequently, I called my husband and asked him to thaw out whatever meat he wanted so I could cook dinner when I got home. He just said "Okay, Honey. I love you. Bye.", like all was well.

So that's that. I am so sick of this. I think I will print each and every one of my posts here on this thread, and give it to my therapist to review before the actual meeting. I will tell him that they are private and are not for my husband's knowledge. I want to make sure the therapist completely understands what is going on in my mind. I always have a hard time expressing how I feel in front of my husband.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> I do not think my husband is _purposefully_ trying to confuse me or make me feel crazy, but I certainly am and certainly do at times.


Crisis, a BPDer sometimes gets so angry that he will deliverately say mean things to hurt you. Generally, however, he does not say the outrageous things to hurt you but, rather, to defend himself against feeling ashamed. As I explain in my posts, you H likely felt very ashamed when he was in early childhood and, now as an adult, any admission of having a flaw or making a mistake would trigger that terrible feeling of intense shame. 

If he is a BPDer, he protects himself by projecting the blame or bad thoughts onto you. Because the projection is done subconsciously, his conscious mind is able to actually believe much of the outrageous claims coming out of his mouth. I suggest that you ask your T about BPD but don't mention it to your H. Your H will never believe you and will just get angry. I am glad to hear that you intend to read my other posts. Once you understand better how a BPDer thinks, you will get a clearer picture of what each of you is contributing to the toxic relationship.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

Thank you, Uptown. This is something I had never considered before. Maybe he is ill. I always just tried to understand why he could be so mean to me. You know, he does not even know that he is insulting me when he talks to me. Whenever he is unable to get me to go along with his irrationality, like this afternoon, he tells me that talking to me is like talking to a wall. That hurts so much, as I try _SO_ hard to understand his rationale and feelings. I asked him why he had to insult me. He claimed that he had not insulted me (he only considers name-calling an insult). I explained that claiming 'talking to me is like talking to a wall' is insulting. He just did not get it.

I am so hurt and lost today that I don't even want to speak to him. I don't even want to see him today. All I want to do is crawl in a hole and cry. I feel so hurt. And, he did not even call me one name. He just knows how hurt me so, and make me feel so low and worthless. He knows just how to make me feel so confused. So much so that he knows that even when I try to be so hard and stand my ground, telling myself that I am sane and strong, I crack and break down to a million tiny little pieces all over the floor. It is all so painful.

I hope the weekend goes somewhat smoothly.

Thank you so much.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

crisis1008 said:


> I always just tried to understand why he could be so mean to me.


Extreme meanness is one of the hallmarks of BPD. It occurs not because the BPDer is evil but, rather, because his perception of your intentions is distorted. That is why BPD is called a "thought disorder." It causes him to do all-or-nothing thinking, wherein he categorizes everyone as either "all good" or "all bad." To a BPDer, it never occurs to him that everyone is actually a combination of good and bad. The result is that, when a person says anything to trigger his fear of abandonment or engulfment, he will get angry within ten seconds and immediately reclassify that person as "all bad."

Moreover, the only people who are capable of easily triggering those two fears are those who love him. So high functioning BPDers tend to treat total strangers, casual friends, and business associates very well (perhaps even with great warmth and generosity) -- but they go home at night and treat their loved ones badly much of the time. Of course, once one of those casual friends becomes a close friend, then there is a relationship that can be abandoned -- or intimacy that can threaten engulfment -- and he will start treating that friend badly too. This is why people with strong BPD traits usually do not have any long term close friends (unless they live a great distance apart).


> You know, he does not even know that he is insulting me when he talks to me.


All personality disorders (PDs) have an underlying narcissism. Unlike a person suffering from Narcissistic PD, however, a BPDer is capable of loving you and caring for you. His narcissism nonetheless is much stronger than normal -- as is true for anyone in a lot of pain and insecurity. When he is doing the all-or-nothing thinking (called "splitting"), he perceives of you either as white (i.e., good) or black (i.e., bad). 

When he is splitting you white, he will tend to idealize you and adore you and treat you sweetly. But when he is splitting you black, he really believes you are bad and will treat you accordingly. So, yes, it would be common for him to really think everything is your fault and sometimes not realize he is being so hurtful. Other times, however, he won't care if he is being hurtful or not.


> Whenever he is unable to get me to go along with his irrationality, like this afternoon, he tells me that talking to me is like talking to a wall.


Due to the childhood trauma (and heredity), a BPDer's emotional development became frozen at age 3 or 4, which means he never learned how to do self soothing (and never learned a number of other mature defenses either). This means he cannot regulate or control his emotions very well, causing him to experience such intense emotions that the feelings take on a life of their own -- they seem absolutely real even though there is not an ounce of proof or evidence that they are true. Hence, trying to reason with a BPDer is like trying to reason with a four year old. It is impossible because a BPDer makes decisions with the intuitive, child like part of his mind whenever he gets stressed. And he is always ten seconds away from getting stressed. 

So, any attempt you make to have a reasoned, calm discussion with the logical part of his mind will immediately cause stress, causing him to hand you over to the child in him. This is why -- no matter how calm and content he is when you approach him -- you will end up having a discussion with an angry four year old within a few seconds. Hence, it is commonly said that "a BPDer is only interested in creating drama, not solutions or compromises." 

And whenever he creates drama, of course, he will project it onto you, believing that you are the one who created it. Are you starting to see, then, why the partners of BPDers often feel they are going crazy? If so, please read my posts (at the links above) so you can see more of what you likely are up against.


> He just knows how hurt me so, and make me feel so low and worthless. He knows just how to make me feel so confused.


Yes, that is his contribution but you are blind to your own contribution -- as I was for 15 years. The toxic relationship you are in is not something HE is doing to you. Rather, it is something YOU BOTH are doing to each other because the toxicity likely is as harmful to him as it is to you. As long as you continue feeling that you are a poor helpless victim, you will never realize that you have the power to end the pain and end the harm any time you want to. Significantly, it takes two willing people to form a toxic relationship lasting years. 

Moreover, if your H is a BPDer as I suspect, he is much less emotionally stable than you are. This means that you are the glue holding the relationship together. Hence, you are fully capable of ending it at any time. 

Keep in mind that people who are emotionally healthy refuse to stay with a BPDer for longer than about 18 months tops. What happens is that they enjoy the 6 month wonderful passionate honeymoon period and then are willing to try for another 12 months to restore the honeymoon conditions. Then they bail. They will not hold on like you did for 10 years -- or like I did for 15 years. As extreme caregivers, our problem is that our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the people we already are).


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## takris (Sep 22, 2010)

I know we should be careful when suggesting a particular disorder might be possible, but there is another trait of BPD that seems similar to your situation. My wife has BPD, but is high functioning.

The trait I am referring to is the persuasive refusal to to accept any sort of wrongdoing in a situation or argument. My wife will argue endlessly, and even finally admit that her thinking is really flawed on a subject, but you'd think it killed her to say it from her reaction. Then, the very next day, she's back to the same issue. Point is, ultimately they start making you think you are crazy. And they are masters at it.

Read 'Walking on Eggshells' if you can, or maybe even join 'Welcome to Oz' on Yahoo Groups for spouses of BPD and just listen to the day to day updates from the group for a while. Might be surprised if you go back in time at how many sound like you.

Point is, you've got to get strong. Believe in yourself, then make a plan and stick to it.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

But sometimes I do this. Sometimes I know that what I feel is right and argue it endlessly as I try to get my husband to understand. However, when it gets to the point that he is mad at me, he has either made me believe I am wrong or I have become so scared that I just don't care about being right anymore so I just agree with him or say I am wrong. However, after all emotions have subsided I remember my true belief and feel robbed. I have been told so many times by so many people that I have to stand up for myself, which is exactly why I try to argue what I know to be right. I try so hard to the point of exhaustion, then just give in. Throughout our arguments I am constantly told that my belief is only my perception. In essence, this means that what I feel is not reality. It means that I am crazy. I absolutely am not crazy, but certainly feel that way at times.

Friday, when I got home from work, I did not want to speak. I was a little angry, and decided that the little anger I was feeling enabled me to keep focused on what I knew to be reality and helped to keep me from getting scared. It helped me feel in control of myself and my emotions. My husband, now that I had told him that I was not going yard-saling and going to therapy on Monday, was acting like he wsa the hurt puppy. He was acting like he was tip-toeing around me. I think he may have been a little due to realizing that I was truly having problems with the current issue at hand. It seems as though he may have been back-tracking, because I had set-up an appointment with a professional to discuss what was bothering me in my marriage. My husband would ask me if I needed or wanted anything from the kitchen. It was sort of like he was catering to me all of a sudden. I would just say know and that I was fine. I stayed on the computer just about all night looking for his Christmas gift. Yep, thinking of his happiness and wondering why I was doing so. The next morning he confronted me, asking me what the problem was. In the end I get a bit scared of saying what really bothers me, so I just said that there was nothing wrong and that I was fine. He was acting hurt and claiming that he was trying to hold me in bed and that I did not hold him back. I realized that he was onto me, and knew that I really had a problem. I tried to talk a little bit about what was bothering me, but it appeared to be minimized once again, and he just said that he was not going to the therapy appointment with me on Monday. I just wanted peace at this point, and to refrain from engaging in what would turn about to be a war ending in my crying. So, I let it all go and decided to just be lovable toward my husband. I allowed myself to enjoy the day with him, as we went to Home Depot and the movies later in the evening. All was well into the next day.

However, this morning my husband called me while I was on my way to work as usual. All was okay at first, but my husband mentioned that he was going to begin replacing the trusses on the roof over our front porch area. So, I reminded him that I had an appointment with the therapist this evening, and asked him if he would be going. He said that he was.

This spawned his telling me that he just believes that we have problems communicating with each other. I could accept this as one of our problems if that truly were even part of the case. I told him that I disagreed. I told him that I had been trying to communicate with him and that I had tried repeatedly to tell him how I felt only for him to tell me that the way I viewed things were only my perception. I then informed him that my feelings were very real. He then told me "Of course your feelings are real. I am sure you really feel them." This tells me that he only agrees that I really do feel the pain of what I have made up in my own head. I became upset. I said "The bottom line is I feel like I cannot go anywhere with anyone other than you." He then said that he has never forbid me to go anywhere, and that he even thought that he was being very supportive when my mother was in the hospital for two weeks after her motorcycle accident. I went to the hopsital three times the whole time she was confined. I was there when she arrived by ambulance (my husband accompanied me), I visited her the next day after work (a total of 1 hour), and one day after work durnig the second week of her confinement (a total of 2.5 hours). This second visit, I made sure not to spend more that an hour with her, because of the feeling I got when my husband asked me if I was going to be all night. The third visit my husband became irritated with me because, while I can't quite remember what, I became delayed by something I could not control. I kept calling my husband to let him know what was going on, but did not get out of the hospital until 9:00 p.m. which angered him a bit. I just kept saying that I was sorry.

After my mother was release from the hospital in a body brace (completely immobil), she was extremely embarrased due to being unable to clean her own home and freaking out because her mother was on the way from NC to help care for her. So, my sister and I went over to my mother's house after work on the two night before my grandmother's arrival and cleaned her house. The next day, I picked up my grandmother from the airport (I work 10 minutes from the airport) after work and did not get home until 10:00 p.m. as the airport is almost 2 hours away from my house and my grandmother was starving after she got off the plane. My husband was pissed at me all three nights. I did not see my grandmother and mother again until the morning I had to take my grandmother back to the airport, on week later. I did not view my husband as being very supportive. I mean, he was supportive the day that my mother first arrived at the hospital, but he was there with me. This is where I see a pattern. He was okay because he was with me.

This morning he told me that I do just what you suggested he does. He told me that I have to be right about everything and that I become extremely defensive and argue to the death whenever anyone disagrees with something I am saying. He said that I can never admit that I am wrong. I asked him what he wsa talking about and reminded him that I just admitted that I may have been wrong on Friday. He said that I did not do that. I said that in fact did and asked him if he recalled my calling him on Friday to tell him that I had done something thinking and that maybe I was wrong. I reminded him that I said I would consult with him before making plans to go anywhere. He, again, told me that I did not say that. He added that what I did say to him on Friday was that maybe he was right. I just said "Are you kidding me? That is the same thing." He said that it was not the same thing. I hung up on him, but called right back as I realized that I should not have done so.

I apologized for hanging up and tried to get him to see that he was twisting my words. He said that my telling him that maybe he was right was not admitting that I may have been wrong. I asked him if there was anyone else involved in the issue that could have been possibly considered as being wrong. I reminded him that our issue was a disagreement between he and I and that if there was no one else who could have been wrong other than he and I, and I was saying that he was right, then that would make me wrong. I got emotional by this point and told him to stop grasping at straws, and twisting words. He kept talking over me as he denied that he was doing to. I then told him he was full of it. He asked me what I had said to him. I repeated it. He hung up on me for the final time.


I think my husband may be jealous of anyone else spending time with me. I think his jealousy and possibly even possessiveness is triggering his need to control. I don't even think he realizes any of it.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

I feel bad. I just feel so bad for telling my husband that he was full of it. I would never want him to say that to me. Although, its not like he never has. That's besides the point though, as two wrongs don't make a right and that was in the past. I just kept telling myself that I was not going to let him temporarily change my mind. I was not going to let him twist what I know to be truth. I was not going to let him get me to the point of self re-evaluation once again. I was going to let him know that I was sticking to what I believe. I did call him to tell him that I love him and apologized for saying what I said. I told him I was wrong in doing so. I told him that I just get so sick of him telling me that what I feel is really happening is only my perception of reality. I told him that whether something is my perception or not make it my reality. Added that my reality is his reality, meaning that what I feel is real is actually affecting what is real to him, as I am really telling him that I am feeling this way. I told him that I did not care about any of what wsa said on the phone this morning. I told him that I did not feel we should discuss the matter anymore, until we are in front of the therapist. He said he agreed and that he feels our problem is that we do not understand each other. I fed into this by saying that I disagreed and felt that our problem was that we needed to find a way to compromise with each other in order to make both of us happy. We need to find a way to make him feel important, and allow me to feel like I am not shackeled to him. He claims to feel neglected, and I feel scared, smothered, controlled and prevented from seeing friends and family. How do we fix this?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> We need to find a way to make him feel important.... How do we fix this?


You don't fix it, Crisis. You can't. If he has strong BPD traits as I suspect, your H has the emotional development of a four year old and thus is throwing tantrums. He is unable to regulate his emotions, unable to trust you, and unable to challenge his own intense feelings. Because such damage to his emotional core takes many years of therapy from a trained professional to control, going to a marriage counselor with him likely will be a waste of time and money. Although MCs do know how to teach communication skills, teaching him such skills will only make him better at controlling and deceiving you. Sadly, there is little chance he will want to go a psychologist because, as I explained earlier, nearly all high functioning BPDers are too afraid to confront their illness or admit to having a flaw. 

If you can, please stop trying to win the arguments with him. The outcome of such arguments are usually pointless because, even in the unlikely event he would ever admit you are right, his feeling -- and his memory of the event itself -- will be pushed aside by the next wave of intense feelings moving through his mind. As you just saw, for example, he already is in denial about your having told him last Friday that he might be right. So what did you gain from that experience? That admission bought you nothing. Nada. Zilch. 

Similarly, doing nice things for him buys you nothing in the long run because an untreated BPDer is incapable of appreciating any sacrifices or gifts for more than a few days, if that. Like I said, the next wave of intense emotions becomes his new reality and past feelings are pushed aside -- gone, gone, gone. This is why it is impossible to build up a reservoir of good will with him on which to draw during the hard times. That reservoir is always exhausted. Instead, all you will likely get from him -- instead of appreciation -- is "what have you done for me lately." 

In light of this, you will do yourself a big favor if you stop trying so hard to make him understand. If he has strong BPD traits, that is an impossible task and, even if you could do it, he would forget the results in a few days. Instead of arguing with him, it is better to just tell him your view, explaining it briefly once. After that, just say "I know you feel differently but we disagree." Don't let him suck you into satisfying his endless need for creating drama. Like I said before, a BPDer is usually only interested in creating drama, not finding solutions.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

You have metioned a lot of things in your last post that ring bells. For a moment there, I was thinking that maybe I was the problem, as I tend to get very emotional throughout our arguments. However, I realize that I get so emotional as a result of trying to get my husband to listen and try to understand my point of view as well as his own. After a while, I begin to feel crazy and like I am talking in circles. I start to realize that I am running in place. I break down due to feeling like my husband either doesn't care and needs to have the last say in the argument, or he just really cannot fathom the idea that his views may not be totally correct.

Last night, my husband and I went to counseling. We let it all come out in front of the therapist. As usual, I felt a bit stupid as I could not totally describe what I was feeling and exactly what was making me feel that way. In the end the therapist said that we were both dissecting each other's every single word to find out if there might be an underlying meaning. I am sure this is true, but I feel a littled robbed. You see, I do know that I dissect my husband's every word, as I am used to my husband saying one thing and meaning another. I know this to be true. For instance, there was one time when I had to take the day off of work to go to court and file a motion ro reset for a traffic court hearing that I missed. I told my husband about everything that was going on. I also told my husband that if the court date was not set before the next seven days that I would have to go back to the court house to work out a payment arrangement for the ticket. Otherwise, my license would be suspended. Well the court date was not set in time. So the following week, I had to take another day off of work to go back to the court house to make the payment arrangement. Mind you, throughout the entire week my husband kept asking me why I had to take the day off of work, and every time he asked I would explain the ordeal all over again. So, you can imagine my surprise when on the morning of day I had taken off work to go back to the court house my husband asked me if I was going to get up. I said no and added that the court house did not open until 9:00 a.m., and I am tired and want to sleep. I just told him that I wanted to sleep, so I became a little annoyed when he asked "Why do you have to go to the court house?" I sort of breathed deeply before I began to explain the issue all over again for about the tenth time. He got mad at me for huffing. I said that I was sorry and that it's just that I had already told him so many times and really watned to sleep, in an almost pleading tone. He then said in a very sweet yet condescending tone "Well, baby, its just that I am not sure you were really there last week." I got so mad. I jumped out of bed and said "Are you accusing me of lying about going to the court house last week?" He then got mad at me for being mad as he told me "See, I try to handle you with kitten gloves and look at you. I even said "baby." I told him that putting the words baby, honey, or muffin would never change the meaning of that statement. I ran to the livingroom and got the papers that I had obtained from the court house the week before that were dated and tried to hand them to him. He then told me that if I hand him the papers he would rip them up. He left the house. I did not go back to sleep and we did not talk four a couple of days. So, you see. My husband has a history of saying certain things a certain way so that they might have another meaning. Or, he will certain things a certain way so as to be able to say that he was not being mean and that I fly off the handle for no reason. He tells people that I have emotional issues. Of course, I do. He makes me feel insane.

Back to therapy. While in session I felt comfortable enough to blurt out that I had lied about my girlfriend canceling our trip to go yard-saling. I told him that I was the one who canceled. I told him that I was too scared to go. He then got mad at me for lying to him. The therapist asked me why I had lied. I told him that I could not figure out what was right or wrong at the time. Do I go yard-saling and make my husband mad? Do I cancel and make my husband mad? I could lie and say that my friend canceled, seemed like best case scenerio to me at the time. Is lying right? Absolutely not. But, if lying wasn't right, then what was? At least if I had lied, I could avoid deal with his extreme irritability and lecturing, which always turns into arguments and pain. The therapist asked my what it feels like to not know right from wrong. He asked me what it was like to not be able to make decisions. I told him that it made me feel crazy. I told him that it made me feel insane. This did not phase my husband, as he only focused on the fact that I had lied. 

My husband told the therapist that he has never told me that I cannot go somewhere. He told the therapist that he has never got mad as a result of my going somewhere. My husband even went so far as to ask me if he was mad at me when I got home from going to the beach with my cousin. The answer to this is 'no.' And, I was honest. I said "No." This had to have made me look like I was making all of this up in my own head. He told the therapist that I was narrow-minded and did not consider his feelings. I again tried to explain that I had considered his feelings, which is exactly what spawned my calling him on Friday afternoon to tell him that he was right and that I would consult with him before making plans with anyone else. Isn't that proof of my considering his feelings? He had explained his feelings to me that morning. I had taken the morning to consider them. I then called him in the afternoon to give him what he wanted. I had considered him.

I feel like I am fighting for him to see what he does to me. When we go to therapy I feel like I am fighting for the therapist to see what he does to me, so the therapist can show him. However, it does nothing if the therapist views me as an overly emotional wreck whose feelings are invalid.

I did try exactly what you suggested this morning while on the phone with my husband. I had asked my husband if he could call our neighbor today to borrow his commercial pool pump in order to drain our cest-- I mean swimming pool. My husband's response was "Possibly. I'll try." I thought to myself "It's a phone call. What is so hard about making one phone call when you get off of work at 1:00 p.m. every day?" So I thought I would take the moment to talk to him about it. I asked "Honey, can I talk to you for a moment?" he said I could and I asked why he would not commit to making the call. He told me that was not going to do the same thing to me that I do to him. He then told me that he asks me to do things all the time and that I say I will and never do them. He said that he has been asking me for years organize our filing cabinet and that I always say I will but never do. This is true. I hate organizing his things, as he gets mad when he can't find them. Then it becomes my fault things are lost. I will actually do it at some point. As a matter of fact I had planned on doing it last weekend, but conveniently got sidetracked, as usual. So, again he was right about this one. While I cannot think of another incident, he is right about this one. So, I responded by saying "Nevermind." He then asked why I had said nevermind. I told him that he was right so I just decided that my asking him about the phone call and talking about the issue was pointless, and so I said nevermind. This somehow led into my lying about canceling the yard-saling event.

He told me that he could not trust me. He asked me, if he had called me names or hit me, if he could ask me to please try an understand and that he would continue to work on himself. He asked me if that would be acceptable. I did not argue that there was any difference. I just said "No." He asked me how long he should deal with my lying. I told him that he should not have to deal with it and that only he could decide when enough was enough. I told him that the only thing I could say to defend myself was that I truly could not determine right from wrong at the moment and truly was sorry. He just got irritated with my telling him that how long he should deal with it would be up to him. He said that he hoped I could deal with his divorcing me over my lying. Do you know what I saw here? He had found a way to fault me for the possible demise of our marriage. I just accepted it and did not respond. I know why I lied. I know it was wrong. I know that my lying would not be the sole reason for the ending of our marriage. I did not argue with him at all. He just ended the conversation and we hung up. 

The fact that I did not argue with him did not end his irritation. Every thing he said during that conversation gave the impression that he expected me to say something else about my lying. It was almost like he wanted me to say something else. I did not have an argument that would be heard or understood, so what else could I say. I even asked him what he wanted me to say. He said he did not know. End of conversation.

So, you are right. Counseling did not really help us. However, it did make me realize that we were cutting each other off constantly, and constantly feeding off of each other (toxicity), so I have decided not to do it anymore. Let's see if it helps.


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## Bluemoon7 (Jan 27, 2010)

I'm sorry things did not go better at counseling. It definitely seems like a toxic cycle of arguing and trying to be understood but never resolving the real issues.

I'm not defending lying, however your H should be wondering why you feel the need to lie to him. I'm assuming that you don't have a history of lying and that you've adopted it as a way of 'protecting' yourself from the reaction of your H? Usually I would suggest you tell him this, but he seems incapable of accepting his roll in the problems. It's too much about who's to blame and he wants it to be you. 

IMO, you should not have canceled your plans last weekend. At this point you're allowing yourself to be controlled and manipulated without him having to do anything. And now you're 'in trouble' for lying so you could give into what he would want rather than being 'in trouble' for doing what you wanted. 

Can you ever win? Are you ever going to be happy like this?


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

No. I am not happy like this. I don't think I will ever be able to win. I am trying not to view this as a competition. Maybe it is. My husband now continually states that he feels neglected and just wants to spend time with me. I figure I will try to be more sensitive to his needs for a bit. I tried to ask him in counseling what amount of time would make him feel more fulfilled, but got no answer. I tried to ask what I could do. I told the counselor that there had to be some way to find a compromise. There had to be a way that would make both of us happy. One where he could spend time with me and I could also have some quality time with friends and family. No suggestions were made. No conclusion was reached. We are sort of in the same spot. Only, I retained what the counselor said about us feeding off of the other. When one person opposes the other, the other opposes in response. I really am not trying to disagree with everything my husband says. I try to understand his feelings of neglect. I try to take them seriously, but I know that I am not neglecting him. Everyday I talk to him in the morning on the way to work (half hour to an hour), call him every couple of hours at work, talk almost the entire way home from work (an hour to an hour and a half), I come straight home from work, I cook him an elaborate home made dinner (i.e. London Broil, chicken marsala, country fried steak, etc), we watch tv for a few hours and talk about our days, and go to bed. Five days a week! Then there is the weekend. I have been trying to get some time away with friends and family, but haven't really been successful. I always spend at least one entire day over the weekend, sometimes both days, cleaning (sweeping, mopping, dusting, picking-up, polishing, laundry, etc.) while my husband watches tv or works on a project. He feels neglected (I don't know how) and I feel smothered.

Now, I am probably just going to sit home for a few weekends and play it by ear after that. I may invite friends and family over to visit and see how he handles that. Maybe a big get-together dinner, or poker night. I will see if he is okay with that first. Of course, I cannot invite a couple of my friends, as he does not like them, and he will probably not want to spend time with my sister, BIL, and their two toddlers. I have a feeling he won't be okay with it. There will always be some reason why I can't have a get-together, I'm sure. Either he won't like some one, or he may just claim to be too tired for company. Well, maybe I will just talk to friends and family on the phone all night long. We shall see. I am just not going to argue anymore. I will try not to anyway. It took everything in me this morning. I felt stifled when I could not say what I thought about his comments.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

Basically, I am all cried out right now. I'm a little bit discouraged. I am giving up a little bit of spirit and trying things his way. Or, so he claims. I guess I could find the positive and say I am trying a new angle. I hope it works. Something's gotta give. Before long, I may just bust out of prison. Everybody needs time in the yard.


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## Bluemoon7 (Jan 27, 2010)

I guess the point I was trying to make is that as long as there is so much focus on blaming, who's wrong, and who wins it's never going to be a happy situation. It would be great if you could control your role in this so that you can see his role more clearly without adding to the drama. Maybe you will find clarity.

Uptown may be right about your H having BPD and needing serious counseling. Which seems unlikely because of the deep denial that they have problems? It hurts but you can only do so much for your marriage by yourself. 

Maybe he should help with some of the cleaning so you can have more time together? Just because you are there in the house together doesn't mean you are spending quality time together.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> I asked why he would not commit to making the call. He told me that was not going to do the same thing to me that I do to him. He then told me that he asks me to do things all the time and that I say I will and never do them.


Crisis, a BPDer has such a deep sense of shame and self loathing that he will rarely acknowledge -- even to himself -- that he has done something wrong. Because his emotional development is frozen at the level of a four year old, he has only a few primitive defenses to protect his feelings. One of these is diversion, i.e., to divert you off topic whenever he has no decent response to your argument. As small children do, BPDers nearly always refuse to stay on topic when you are trying to get them to admit to something. Instead, they will bring up anything else, including the kitchen sink. That is why this childish tactic is called "kitchen sinking." In this case, you H diverted the discussion away from the current topic by attacking you for something allegedly done in the past.

The other primitive defenses include flat-out denial (i.e., lying), all-or-nothing thinking, dissociation (e.g., day dreaming), and projection (i.e., "Sis did it"). IMO, all of your examples of your H's outrageous statements fit into one of those categories. Significantly, what he is doing is to be expected, given his severe limitations, which cause him to behave like a young child.


> I break down due to feeling like my husband either doesn't care ... or he just really cannot fathom the idea that his views may not be totally correct.


He likely has the intelligence to "fathom the idea." If my experience with BPDers is any guide, they tend to be above average in intelligence. Hence, if he is a BPDer, he simply ignores what the adult logical part of his mind is telling him. When stressed -- and nearly anything you ask him will stress him -- he turns full control over to the intuitive child part of his mind -- the part that believes feelings accurately reflect reality. This means that, when you are arguing with him, you are essentially arguing with a four year old. It doesn't matter that he has the intelligence and logic of an adult because he disengages from that part of his mind. He turns it off.


> I got so mad. I jumped out of bed and said "Are you accusing me of lying about going to the court house last week?"


Of course he was accusing you of lying. He did not trust you. As I said earlier, a BPDer is incapable of trusting you -- or anyone else.


> I cannot invite a couple of my friends, as he does not like them, and he will probably not want to spend time with my sister, BIL, and their two toddlers. I have a feeling he won't be okay with it.


Why do you care whether he will be okay with it? Why should a person with the emotional development of a young child be dictating whether you can meet with friends and family? Sure, he will pout and be unhappy. But that's his problem. Instead of being an "enabler," start letting him deal with his own problems. Moreover, a BPDer will be unhappy no matter what you do. I therefore agree with Bluemoon that you should not be canceling your plans to be with friends and family.


> So, you are right. Counseling did not really help us.


In my experience -- and that of numerous other ex-partners -- it is a big mistake to take your spouse along when going to a psychologist to find out what you are dealing with. If he is a BPDer, he likely will tell lies and just play mind games during the visits. The result will be that the psychologist, seeing you and your H only 50 minutes a week, can take many months to figure out that the H is a BPDer. Even then, the psychologist likely _will not tell him or you_ about the diagnosis. 

One reason for not revealing the true diagnosis is that insurance likely will not cover a BPD diagnosis because most insurance companies still regard it (mistakenly) as untreatable. (It is treatable but the success rate is so low and the treatment period so long that most companies still refuse to cover it.) 

A second reason that the psych won't mention "BPD" is that BPDers usually terminate therapy immediately on hearing that term. A third reason is the concern that, because medical insurance is usually part of an employer's plan, such a diagnosis can adversely affect an existing or future job. 

Hence, to find out what you are dealing with, you should go to the T by yourself and describe what is going on. Of course, the T cannot render a firm diagnosis in the absence of your H, but he certainly will be able to say "it sure sounds like your H is suffering from...." Whether you can get such a candid assessment out of your current T is unclear. Because your T has already seen your H in one session, he may feel the need to protect that client by not making a record of such a diagnosis.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

I know you are right. The only problem is that throughout the years his projecting, manipulative and controlling ways have brought me to the point of sheer insanity and desparation. I am the one who has wound up not being of sound mind at times. I am the one who breaks down like a child. I feel like a child. I hurt like a little girl who has been severely scolded by her father. My heart aches. Most times, I will tell my husband that I do not want to continue with an argument because I see it going no where. I tell him that we will never agree and that we will have to agree to disagree. However, there are those times when you get carried away in the argument. These are the times where I get to feeling desparate for my husband to try to understand me. This level of desparation is what causes my extreme heartache. His twisting of things turns everything into being my fault. I lose words. I get stumped. I become confused. The pain of not being heard, feeling unloved, and the feeling of confusion become intolerable. I lose it and I break down. I begin to cry uncontrollably anymore. At times the stress is so bad that it triggers an anxiety attack. The physical pain can be unbearable. The stress and depression at the height of an argument will make me run for the bathroom to vomit. Mentally and physically, I am no longer able to handle the emotions that come with the arguments.

Yesterday, my step-daughter (17) gave my husband severe attitude. Sating things to him like "And what?" in a very nasty what-are-you-going-to-do-about-it tone. She is very spoiled and any consequences she may have suffered as a result of her disrespect toward anyone has always been pretty minor. Now, she is not only disrespecting her mother and I but she is blatantly disrespecting her father, someone we have all been afraid of at one time or another. Everytime he walked in and out of her bedroom, she made one more disrepectful comment to him. He lost it and spanked her with a belt. Now, I know that sounds harsh, but trust me it had been long coming. I love her very much, but she is really nasty and ungrateful for anything that is ever done her.

Later in the evening, my husband told me he felt bad for spanking her. I asked why. He told me that he believed that he was not really that angry with her and that he had let the day get the best of him. (Remember, he and I had a discussion that morning) I asked him if he meant that he let us get the best of him. He said yes. This makes me feel like I have some blame for her being spanked. I just asked him if there was anything I could do to help him feel better. Mind you, when I got home from work I gave him a kiss, stood next to his chair as he was watching tv and asked "What can I do to make my husband happy?" with a smile on my face. He looked at me like I was stupid. Like I was trying to suck up to him or something. I am only trying to get us past this hump. I am simply trying to make my husband happy. Anyway, he said there was nothing I could do to make him feel better about spanking our daughter. He then moved the conversation over to 'us'.

My husband is still stuck on my lying to him about how I canceled yard-saling with my friend. He said that he could not and wanted to trust me. He said that he had to be able to trust his wife. I again told him that my lie was unacceptable. I told him that I was sorry, but to remember that I did not even have to tell him. I told him that I did not want to hold on to the lie, and felt that I could tell him in counseling in hopes that he would wonder why I felt I had to lie to him. I hoped he would consider the level of confusion that goies on in my mind. I hoped he would see that the anticipation of his reaction is scary to me. I hoped he would wonder why I thought that to be the right decision at the moment. Why a wrong decision could seem like a right decision. He told me that we do not view things the same. I have been saying that all along. I belted this out though tears during therapy. I have said this to my husband over and over again. He told me that he did not believe that we were ever going to agree. Again, what I have always said. Anyway, I just told him that I would not be arguing anymore. I told him that I was just going to do whatever he wanted. I told him that I was just trying to make our marriage work. He said that he was not mad and just went on with talking about his feelings. He said that he cannot go on doing everything my way and that everything has been my way since we reconciled. He said that he wanted me to do things to ease his mind (referring to a polygraph) and that he has to just sit back and do things my way. I thought to myself "Are you kidding me?", but did not say a word. 

He went so far as to say that I have neutered him during our counseling session the other night. I asked how I had neutered him. I asked if I had neutered him by not allowing him to call me names or hit me, because that is the only thing I said was unacceptable upon reconciling. He did not respond. He just looked at me like I was crazy, and continued staring at me for about two minutes before he got up and began to walk out. I asked him not to leave. I don't remember what I said to get him to sit back down, but he did.

After I let him talk only about his feelings last night as I sat quiet and almost unresponsive, all was fine. I had allowed him to place all blame on me. I have to be careful with this though, because at times he will tell me that I am just patronizing him. Maybe I am. But, it keeps some peace. I will continue to accept the blame until I can handle no more. 

I remembered last night how when we reconciled my husband so sweetly said that he wanted me to talk to him about my feelings if I am unhappy. He said that it is unfair to hold them in, as he does not know what is wrong and wants to make me happy. He said that he never wants me to feel unhappy again. I guess he lied, because this whole ordeal was spawned by my getting up enough courage on the phone one day (when he told me that talking to friends, family, forums and couselors without telling him was deceitful) to tell him how I was feeling. I was stupid enough to actually open up and tell him that I felt like I was not allowed to go anywhere. It all just backfired in my face. Didn't it?

I have always gone through phases where I just thought, if I could only make him happy. That was all that mattered. Now, it has become more like an experiment. Let's see if I can make him happy. If I do not argue with him, and if I do not go anywhere with friends and family for about three weeks, then he should feel like I have spent a lot of time with him, the argument that he feels neglected should die, and he should have no problem with my visiting with friends and family for lengthy periods of time every now and then. When I finally do ask to spend time with friends or family, I will call him first to ask if we have plans on a particular day. If there are no set plans, I will ask him if he minds if I spend some quality time with whichever friend or family member. This is what he has indicated to me. He has stated and/or implied that I we do not spend enough time together, that I spend too much time with others, that I am never home, that I am gone one day a week, and that I do not ask him before I make plans. Is spending half the day with your mother really even considered lengthy?

Unless I go crazy first, this should work. If not, then I know that our time is up.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

Okay. I am so hurt, depressed and scared right now.

I called my husband to say "Hi." and ask him how his day was going. He talked to me all about his work and how his ex-wife was looking into home-schooling for my step-daughter. The talk about my step-daughter is beginning to hurt me some, as before the separation I handled everything concerning her well-being. I did all the tutoring and nurturing. Her mother really was not in the picture too much. She was sort of lazy as a parent. I raised my step-daughter, treated and loved her as my own from the time she was four years old. It hurts a bit to be completely out of the picture. Nonetheless, my husband eventually said that he would let me go and I sensed something was wrong due to his sounding so short. My heart began to pound and I asked him if he was mad at me. He said that he was not but that he is depressed due to not knowing what is giong to ahppen between us. He seemed so matter of fact and like he was the one with a decision to make. I am scared. I do love my husband, but I am not happy either. I am trying to be. And, I am trying to make him happy. What can I do? How can we make this work? 

I hurt so badly. I am at work and I want to break down and cry. I am crying. I am scared of him and scared of ending my marriage... again.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Crisis, as I said, you really need the support of your own psychologist who is NOT seeing your H as a client. There is no need for you to keep suffering so. Do you have plans to go back to a psychologist for help? Have you made an appointment?


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

I have made an appointment for next Saturday, November 6. The appointment is for my husband and I, together. My husband believes that we should be seeing a therapist together. He believes it to be unfair to see a therapist without him. He said that the therapist only gets one side of the story with my twist, and that the therapist will just tell me to leave rather than try to help us stay together. I cannot ask my husband to not go to the appointment. If I set-up therapy for myself alone, he will more than likely become upset. If I do it without telling him, he will say I have deceived him. I think solo counseling is out of the question. I am already deceiving him by talking on this forum without his knowledge, but I don't feel I am doing anything wrong. Okay, so now I am re-thinking my belief. I guess I am doing something wrong, as I have not told my husband and he has told me this is wrong. However, I feel it will be very detrimental to my well-being if I stop seeking support and advice on this forum. I feel it is the only thing that keeps me sane at times.

One good thing has happened though. 

First, let me tell you about my Halloween costume last year, when my husband I were separated. I was bartending at night to keep myself busy and be around friends all the time. A bar is a much more laid back atmosphere than the environment of my government job during the day. While working at the lounge, I dressed as a somewhat sexy, cute little sailor girl (nothing showing) for Halloween. The dress was a little short though. I had originally worn a longer pettycoat under the costume, but when my mom and dad came in to see me they told me the pettycoat looked stupid, as did all of my co-workers. The told me that while the dress was a little short and sexy, it was not too risque and nowhere near trashy. My parents wanted a photo with me, but urged I take off the pettycoat for the picture and allow myself to feel free and cute for a change. I tend to be a bit conservative. Even as a teenager, I was never showy. So, I did. I took it off. And, you know what? I felt great. I did not feel trashy in any way. I looked adorable.

Now, last night I had to run to Party City to pick up some Halloween decorations for work. So, I asked my husband to go with me, so he could not say that we have not spent time together. I want to get every moment in possible. On the way home, we were discussing my costume for work which happens to be a little short. I mentioned that I would not being wearing the costume to work and that I would simply change into it for the event, then chounge out of it once the event was over. He asked why. I told him that I did not feel comfortable in it as it was too short. He then said that I did not have morals last year, so why pretent to have morals now. I was shocked. The comment definitely left me speechless. I was so hurt. Of course, I have morals. Even if I did not, a bar and a government office building have two completely different environments. My office is not the place to be walking around in a short dress all day. In the bar, that is acceptable. Oh my God! How could he have said that to me. I could not really speak for the rest of the evening. I had no words. I felt so belittled. His comment made me feel like I was nothing... worth nothing. I wanted to cry, but didn't. Crying would have angered him. He would have continued to lecture me about my costume last year and my lack of morals, which would have made me feel like a wh-re. I knew that saying anything about the issue would have only made things worse.

This morning, my husband called me while on my way to work and the first thing he did was apologize for making his comment last night. He said that sometimes he does not know how to filter his comments. I am happy to have received an apology for this. Although, it does not really take away the fact that he really did say it, and that he must really think this of me. He went on to talk about the morals of others. He mentioned how his brother slept with his ex-wife. He said that was not something he would ever do. He also mentioned the fact that he hired his friend's mistress, then fired her at his friend's request so the wife would not know. Now, this friend has hired my husband, and my husband thinks that the friend should basically be giving him everything he wants. He basically said that if he did all that stuff for his friend, then his friend should be doing lots for him. Well, the friend is not giving my husband everything he wants and my husband is irritated. I told my husband that not everyone thinks along the same lines. He told me that everyone says they have morals, then conducts themselves immorally and simply makes excuses for their immoral behavior. We are talking about my husband here... a man who has seriously mistreated his wife... no, wives in the past. His behavior toward me and others has been extremely immoral. He said that he would never sleep with somebody else's wife. But, he has in the past. He has stolen. He has lied. He has committed adultery on his past wives and girlfriends. He is a hypocrite. Anyway, I told him that his level of thinking is in black and white, and that most people do not think of things as only black and white. I told him that most people think in terms of grayscale. He said that this was not right and that the world was going to go to sh--. I told him that while he was right, that is just the way it is. There are gray areas at times. I then told him to try to relax and have a better day before we hung up.

I don't get it. Anyway, he did apologize for his very mean and insulting comment toward me.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

Funny... I am going to head home in about 10 minutes, and I am already wondering what sort of horrible thing my husband might say this evening. Well, I guess he is right about one thing. He is always telling me that I only look for the negative in him. He tells me that if I only look for the bad, then that is what I will find. I guess I should be more positive. I hope we have a good evening. I hope everyone on this forum has a good evening tonight.


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## Bluemoon7 (Jan 27, 2010)

It does seem true that if you look for the negative you will find it. However, when things are negative you become conditioned to expect it. 

It would be very hurtful to have your H randomly bring up the past to make you feel bad about yourself. He sure takes his opportunities to tear you down. A Halloween costume has no real relationship to morals- it's one day of dressing up, but how you treat your family and other people all year long sure does.

Don't let him blame you for the guilt of hitting his daughter. He is a grown man in control of his own actions. 

The more I read your story, it makes me wonder if he even loves you. Are you just a tool to make him happy? How can you be happy walking on egg shells all the time? Doing this toxic dance of arguing over the past, your being allowed to see family and friends, etc.? 

It's completely normal for people to need to talk to others and help them sort themselves out. The fact that your H wants to prevent you from doing that unless he can be there to give his side seems a bit strange IMO. A kinda irrational fear. Maybe he fears he might lose control of you.

You deserve to be happy.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> it does not really take away the fact that he really did say it, and that he must really think this of me.


Because your H appears to be unstable and a black-white thinker, his feelings and thoughts are not consistent. Hence, hearing him say something about you on one ocassion does not mean he will believe it at another time. As I said before, he likely can flip from adoring you to hating you in ten seconds.


> His comment made me feel like I was nothing... worth nothing.


No, he did not make you feel anything. Rather, you chose to react that way to what he said. Although the man likely has the emotional development of a four year old, you keep letting this big baby determine -- for you -- whether you are a valuable person. Your main problem, then, is not his outrageous behavior but, rather, your low self esteem and fear of being rejected by him (when he gets unhappy). This is why I am encouraging you to see a psychologist on your own. It is important that you be able to visit a therapist without your H sitting there and telling his lies.


> If I set-up therapy for myself alone, he will more than likely become upset.


Yes, of course he will be upset. Every time you try to do the tinest thing for yourself he gets upset. Four year olds get upset all the time when they see something that is not about them or does not revolve around them. Hence, as long as you are so afraid to upset him, you stand no chance at all of healing yourself and getting better. Instead, you will live out the rest of your life soothing his feathers, enabling him to continue throwing tantrums to control you. When a spouse has strong traits of a PD, going to a marriage conselor together is a total waste of time, as I explained above.

So, unless you change your mind about "not offending" the big baby, you cannot move forward. Baby doesn't want you to go to a T on your own because (a) he has you right where he wants you, under his thumb, and (b) he does not want you to get stronger and feel better about yourself. The stronger you get, the greater his fear of abandonment will become (and it is impossible to convince him otherwise). This means that, as long as you continue avoiding individual therapy to avoid making Baby pout, you are not serious about improving yourself. You are all talk and no action.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

Bluemoon7, I certainly know that I am worth more after I shake off the immediate reactive emotions. I do try to tell myself that he is wrong. When I am able to remain logical and rational, I know that he is full of it. I know that I am worth a lot more that he makes me feel at times.

Uptown, you are absolutely right in many aspects, especially in the area of your (b) comment. His fear of abandonment absolutely worsens the stronger I become. When he fears something or loses control of something, he tends to use anger and intimidation to make what he fears go away and gain control of a situation. Whenever I do speak strongly to him, he gets mad and tells me that I am using my b-tch voice again, then tells me to stop speaking to him in such a tone. I guess that shouldn't matter to me though. However, you are wrong about my desire to improve myself.

You see, I have gone through this for many years... worse even... with my husband. It has gotten to the point where I have had friends and family tell me to sh-t or get off the pot, but none other than others who have been in my situation can really understand the fears, pressure and guilt. I am certain that I suffer from co-dependency, as I fear being on my own, alone and the possibilities that I will either never stop loving my husband or he will never leave me alone. I felt fantastic during the period of our separation, but those fears still loomed. I lived with my sister for about 10 months, but never made the move to be on my own. Well, I bought a couch and put it in storage. It was the only thing I ever did while having the mindset of starting anew. My husband also know me better than anyone in the world. He knows what hurts me, makes me happy, makes me mad, and makes me scared. He used his knowledge to get me back. He played off of my emotions. At times I could see what he was doing, and would tell him that I refused to discuss anything that evoked any sort of emotion. I would even hang-up on him or not answer his calls. I do have fears. I am scared. I also know that this is normal. I just wish I could get past my fears and feelings of love and guilt, so I could beeter my own life. 

As far as seeing a therapist goes, I went back to my husband with the intention of repairing our marriage... not just me. I thought this was something we were supposed to do together. At least, that is what he and I discussed, which made perfect sense to me at the time. Although, I did have a little more trust in his intentions at that time. I would live to do this together with him, but am afraid that I will never be able to truly express myself, and he will never truly see and change what he does.

I do agree with the fact that I should not allow anyhting my husband says to hurt me. It is just so hard, you know? You want your spouse to love and cherish you. You want that person to like you and think highly of you. So, when you are confronted with the fact that that person thinks the opposite of you, it hurts very badly. I could try not to let it get to me and pretend I don't even hear it, but it is hard. Your immediate reaction is to either cry or scream in defense. I could choose not to react at all, as if I did not even hear it. But, I tell you, both of these reactions will anger him. I have tried both in the past. My best bet with him is to shut my mouth, and hang my head low as if to say "I surrender." I do see, however, that this is only feeding his ego and that it is me who is allowing things to get worse.

Today, things are okay between he and I, as we are preoccupied. Our 1.5 year old boxer has somehow developed a spinal infection that is attacking his spine and nervous system, rendering him immobile. The most he does is thrash about the front portion of his body at times. He, Tank, has been in and out of the hospital since last Saturday night. If he lives, there is a chance he may be paralyzed from the waist down. We go back to the hospital today in order to discuss his prognosis and possibly consider euthinization. Today, we are both just leaning on each other for support as one of our babies is dying. We are scared.

Thanks to both of you. While not always what I want to hear, your words ring true and the advice you have given is taken to heart and processed for use in my mind. I really do appreciate the time you have taken to try to help me. I really do need it. My mind is always flip-flopping as I try to sort out the confusing and blury marital issues that are consuming my happiness. Each and every time I read your posts I somehow feel stronger.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Crisis, I'm glad to hear that your are doing okay. I'm sorry to learn about your struggle with your very sick dog, Tank.


crisis1008 said:


> I have had friends and family tell me to sh-t or get off the pot, but none other than others who have been in my situation can really understand the fears, pressure and guilt.


Having been on the pot for 15 years (until my exW kicked me off four years ago), I have some understanding of the overwhelming sense of Fear, Obligation, Guilt -- feelings that are so universal among us codependent partners of BPDers that we commonly refer to it as "FOG."


> As far as seeing a therapist goes, I went back to my husband with the intention of repairing our marriage... not just me. I thought this was something we were supposed to do together.


If your H has strong BPD traits and you have strong codependency traits, your marriage will remain toxic to both of you until you both seek individual therapy and learn to control your own issues. As I explained earlier, learning how to communicate better (from a marriage counselor) will only teach him how to be more skillful in controlling you. He likely has agreed to see a MC because he quickly figured out that there is no way you are going to get stronger by being taught how to be a better listener and communicator. Your issues and his issues go way past communication skills.


> I do agree with the fact that I should not allow anyhting my husband says to hurt me. It is just so hard, you know?


Of course it's hard and painful for you, as it was for me due to my codependency. This is why you need treatment by a cognitive psychologist in individual treatment sessions. I therefore am hopeful that, if you are not ready to do this now, you will take baby steps in that direction. 

IMO, you cannot break free of the toxicity until you learn how to reduce that pain and fear. Your H likely will do everything in his power to prevent your growth, of course. And there is little chance he will make a serious effort to improve his behavior in therapy if he is a BPDer. Doing so would mean admitting he has flaws and, by his black-white way of thinking, conceding that he is not "all good" necessarily implies he is "all bad."


> Well, I bought a couch and put it in storage. It was the only thing I ever did while having the mindset of starting anew.


What I did was to proceed in baby steps, always moving forward. I suggest that you consider the couch your "step 1" -- a foundation on which to build.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

Okay, so I will try not to let any of my husband's suggestive and/or derogatory comments bother me. I will try to tell myself that I do not care what he thinks of me. I will try to tell myself that only my opinion matters. That seems so selfish though. We are supposed to care what our spouses think of us. We are supposed to care about their feelings. If I don't allow myself to care about my husband's feelings, won't this make me a narcissist then?

I think all the time about ways to get out of the house. I don't mean moving out. Well, sometimes I do. What I really mean is that I feel like I am constantly with my husband. I feel quite smothered and want to break away at times. I have explained this in prior posts. However, my feelings are getting stronger all the time. Now, I am thinking of joining the Navy.

I am 31 years old. The age limit for regular enlistment in the Navy is 34. If I enlist now, I could become an officer in a little over a year's time. It would be a great career for me. I love the ocean. I love to travel. It is a great way to provide for my family and our future. I mentioned it to my husband, but he did not seem very thrilled. He said that I could do whatever I want, but those words did not seem to have much meaning in the way of support. They did not really seem genuine, and every other comment that came out of his mouth seemed quite negative. He said that he did not even know where I was at anymore when it comes to children. I wanted children so badly for so many years, but my husband always got mad at me whenever I raised the issue. He always came up with some deal or bargain for me to accept in order to have children in the future every time we discussed the issue. Each time, the issue was discussed his recollection of the deal we made had changed drastically. He had even gone so far as to put a halt to fertility testing by not performing exams required of him by the insurance company in order for me to continue. This went on for about 6 years. I felt like he was stealing my ability to have children. All of a sudden, the second day of our separation, he blurted out how he wanted to have children with me. He did this when I left him the first time. Now he states that he wants a baby, but he that he will only have a baby before he turns 50. He is currently 47, and will be 48 next month. That really only leaves me about a year to become pregnant, and now I am unsure. I have not continued with fertility testing, even though he has followed through with the necessary exam. My drive to have children is gone. However, I am wise enough to realize that my desire to have children will one day return. I just don't know when. I do not think my feelings will change within the next year. I thought maybe Navy first, then children. I think boot camp is only 6 weeks in the Navy. I could begin working on children right after boot camp, if I felt comfortable to do so. What would be so bad about that.

He also asked me if I would have a problem moving my children around all the time. I was a military brat. I did not move around all of the time. Although, my parents were divorced and I lived with my mother while my father was active duty in Japan. But, still. I spoke with my mother who was also in the Air Force. She told me that as a member of the military you are given two options of where you would like to be stationed, and if you must be relocated you will go to either one of your opted locations. She said that you are not always moving around. H-ll, I moved around a little bit when I was younger and I am fine. As a matter of fact, I loved it. I live in a military town, or what used to be. I had several friends whose parents were in the military and they were happy and fine. Lots of people move their families more than one time throughout their lives. Some move due to job offers, to be closer to other family members, so simply for a change of environment. I don't really see what the problem would be. I asked my husband if he would go with me to visit a recruiter, and he got a little bit irritated. He said that I was going way too fast. I am not talking about joining tomorrow. I just want to know everything about it, so we can weigh all of the advantages and disadvantages in order to make a thoroughly informed decision at some point. I don't want really even consider the idea too much unless I know all that is involved in joining. 

Anyway, the vet does not think our dog is going to make it. We are trying one last stitch effort. If he does not show any sign of improvement by this Saturday, we have to put him down. We are all very sad right now and have pretty much lost most of our hope and faith. I think we are just preparing ourselves for letting go.

You know what's funny? I have noticed that while I always move in the direction of which my husband wants, I always want to go the other way. He wants me to bring all my stuff home from storage. I don't wanna. He wants to go right, I wanna go left. I want to give my dog more water. He does not want me to. So, I don't. We never agree. Whatever.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> I will try to tell myself that only my opinion matters. That seems so selfish though. We are supposed to care what our spouses think of us. We are supposed to care about their feelings. If I don't allow myself to care about my husband's feelings, won't this make me a narcissist then?


No, standing up for yourself against an abusive man who is unstable, has hit you, has thrown jars around the kitchen, has insisted you take polygraph tests, and has ridiculed you is not being selfish. Rather, it is a sign that you are starting to build stronger personal boundaries to protect yourself. If your description of his outrageous behavior is accurate, what you are describing is a pattern of traits that psychologists call BPD traits, as I explained earlier.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

My husband is very irritable right now, due to our dog being so ill. He has total lameness of both of his hind legs and will more than likely have to be euthanized tomorrow. This dog, Tank, is my husband's beautiful baby boy. He really is a wonderful member of our family, and having to face the reality of his illness is very painful for both he and I. I am trying very hard to understand my husband's pain and anger, but don't feel it should be an excuse for mistreating me.

Man, you know, just when I think things are okay for a bit, my husband proves me wrong. On my way home from work last night, I spoke at length with my girlfriend, Diana, on cell phone. We were talking about Tank, and I was telling her how hard this was on my husband. I even went so far as to tell her that I might wait just a little bit and buy my husband a brand new Boxer puppy to raise from baby up, as we have acquired all of our animals from others who could no longer keep them, or by rescue. She thought this was a great idea. Anyway, our conversation as I stated before was a lengthy one, and it carried on until after I pulled up in my yard. I live out in the farm land area of South Florida, so cell phone reception is hit or miss. I knew that if I walked in my house the call would drop, as it always does, so I continued pacing in the yard to find reception so I could Diana about a mutual friend that I had seen in the vet's office and give her the phone number, then ended the call. Well, as soon as I walked in the house my husband asked who I was talking to. I told him who and that I was speaking to Diana and gave her our friends phone number. He then proceded to ask why I was talking out in the yard. I again said that I was giving Diana our friend's phone number, thinking that he would know full well that we always have to talk on cell phones outside. He then said that he knew that cell phone calls drop in the house, but wanted to know why I had walked up onto the front porch and then back out into the yard. I WAS PACING ON THE CALL AND LOOKING FOR RECEPTION, OMG! I simply said "For the same reason you do." He got so mad at me and walked back into the house. When I walked back in the house, I asked him what I had done wrong. I said "All I did was come home." He told me that he still has insecurities and that they don't go away. I told him that he really needed to stop his paranoid behavior. He said that he knows that I don't have insecurities about the time that we were separated, because I knew what he was doing. I said "No, I don't. I have know clue what you were doing while we were separated." How would I know? I was not the one following him. As a matter of fact, by his own admission, he was seeing four different women while we were separated, Maggie, Jackie, and two others whose names I cannot recall at the moment. He was even talking to an ex-girlfriend who tried to break us up when we first started dating 12 years ago. Again, how would I know what he was doing? Frankly, I don't care what he was doing. I don't want to know what he was doing. All I know is that my husband wants me over anyone else, and that is all that matters. All that matters to me is 'us'. I did not argue any of this with him though. I just want peace in my life, so all I did was again say "All I did was come home." We barely spoke for the remainder of the evening.

Dear God, is there a way to stop this and be happy together? Is there a way to fix this marriage, or are we really doomed? Is there truly no hope for us? Do I really have to leave him in order to be happy? He used to make me happy once. Why can't he just be the man I supposedly married?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

crisis1008 said:


> I am trying very hard to understand my husband's pain and anger, but don't feel it should be an excuse for mistreating me.


Nor do I. The reason for understanding his BPD traits is not to excuse his atrocious behavior. Rather, it is to see that (a) you cannot fix his BPD traits, (b) you are not responsible for them, (c) you will prevent him from confronting them as long as you continue being his "soothing object" and trash can for throwing away his guilt, and (d) the codependents like you and me are the glue holding these toxic marriages together and, as such, we have the power to end our pain by building strong personal boundaries -- and enforcing them. Most importantly, understanding his behavioral traits will free you from the heavy burden of guilt and obligation that prevents you from standing up for yourself.



> Do I really have to leave him in order to be happy?


At this point, you only have to establish strong personal boundaries and enforce them. One boundary is that you will not tolerate being treated with contempt and disrepect. When violated, you enforce it by removing yourself from his presence. Another boundary is that you will not tolerate interference with your attempts to heal yourself. When violated, you enforce it by going to your own clinical psychologist anyway, despite his protests. If he responds by violating the first boundary, you enforce that too. 

A third boundary is that he must demonstrate a commitment to you and your marriage by seeking therapy and staying in it long enough to make a big improvement in his behavior. When violated, you separate from him. You may not need an actual divorce if he then seeks therapy and stays with it for a lengthy period. Otherwise, his behavior likely will just get worse.


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## crisis1008 (Mar 9, 2010)

Uptown,

You are so right. I do know that I have to establish personal boundaries for my husband to abide by. And, I am so glad you have outlined some suggested guidelines. It is nice to finally have some suggested instructions to follow. You took the gray out and put it in black and white. According to my husband, this is exactly how things should be handled. I will try to inform him that I will not tolerate his treating me with contempt and disrespect and will leave the house whenever he is doing so. I am a little scared of how he will react, but it is worth a shot. I am more scared of the counseling issue.

Currently, things are not so bad as we have been fixated and obsessed with our dog's passing last Saturday morning. However, my husband is currently upset with one of his closest friends who appears to be screwing him over a bit. He is using this to feel sorry for himself as he just continually makes the comment "Everyone I have ever cared about has f**ked me over." I can only assume that I am lumped into this comment. He says it over and over again, as if I am supposed to respond or react. I do not. I don't say a word. I feel it is a trap, and am scared of the outcome if I were to attempt to defend myself and remind him that I have never gone out of my way to hurt him. As a matter of fact I can only think of one thing that I have ever done that hurt him where it was not something I did in reaction to his mistreating me. That was be-friending an ex-boyfriend as he had a hard time getting through his divorce. I did not even like the guy when I dated him. I just felt bad for him as he was torn apart. However, I did not tell my husband about my talking to my ex, which was absolutely wrong. I never set out to harm him though. I did not do anything out of malice. I did not see any harm in not telling him at the time, as I knew there was nothing going on, and knew he would think there was if I did tell him about it. So, I kept it from him. Other than that I have never done anything to hurt my husband. However, he has never let me live this down, and so I have always felt guilty. From the moment I told him about it and ever since, he has treated me as though and made me feel like I had committed adultery. I am probably reading into the idea of his lumping me into his comment, but I figure 'better safe then sorry.' So, I don't get into it at all.


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