# Befriending people with a dark side



## reesespieces (Aug 3, 2009)

After a discussion I had with someone recently, it occurred to me in the last few years I have a tendency to befriend people with very dark sides to them. The sad part to this is, I'm completely clueless about it and don't learn until it hits me in the face or until someone else clues me in. To avoid a TL;DR, I'll list what's happened:

1. In my 20's I had a good male friend who eventually became a roommate. I started to see his darker side a little before we became roommates, but it was full on after we were roommates. We're no longer friends.

2. In my late 20's I befriended a woman who was a little older than me, but we seemed to have a lot in common and got along rather well. She had some problems at the time (financial and homeless) and it didn't bother me because I thought she'd be on her way to getting to a better place. She wasn't, and after time there was rude and somewhat malicious behavior on her part. No longer friends.

3. In my late 20's/early 30's I became friends with a male classmate who did share with me on time he had depression, but that didn't scare me off or anything. We met each other's SO's. Over time I started to notice weird patterns of behavior...he's been accosting women for sex despite having a gf and was going after _anyone._ They recently broke up and she warned me about his behavior--I've distanced myself since. I don't want him sending me pictures of his penis.

I know these are just a handful of situations, yet it made me realize I must be a poor judge of character to not see the darker side of people's behavior. What I have to say might sound controversial and I don't want it to seem like I'm being prejudiced...but there is a strong commonality between them (and other friends) with mental illness. I've experienced my own bouts of depression before, have seen a psychologist, etc. and I know how damaging untreated mental illness can be. I know the lack of support does not help. At the same time, I recognized I had a need to fulfill and I went out and got it. It wasn't fair for me to expect other people to do it for me, and one thing I've noticed is all of these friends expected me to do that work for them. I encouraged them to get help, offered to have them talk to or meet people who could help (social workers and counselors). The problem wasn't the lack of support or understanding on my part. I'm at a point where I can't mother people and I'm wondering if that's what I've been doing to give off the impression.

I apologize for the long post, but this was a recent revelation. The mental illness aspect wasn't the actual problem in each situation. It was more of the fact they all seemed to use their MI as a reason to behave in a dark manner. Sometimes it left me very confused, other times shocked, and other times really worried/scared. An example-- the friend in #1 tried to choke me once and thought he was "joking around."


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## reesespieces (Aug 3, 2009)

notmyrealname4 said:


> You're (unwittingly) putting out signals that you will help and/or put up with them.
> 
> Usually it's because, deep down inside, YOU want to be rescued and taken care of; so you put out that vibe. It attracts people who need to be looked after.
> 
> ...


I actually don't think I need rescuing or taken care of. I've been able to befriend or become acquainted with other people who are well-adjusted and healthy, too. It's just recently when I heard from my friend's gf about his behavior I started to put the pieces together. I agree I'm probably too helpful and I haven't done that in a couple of years. TBH, I haven't made friends with anyone in at least 2-3 years because I don't particularly trust people, and once I get a weird vibe from anyone I don't pursue it. The examples I wrote about where instances where I did invest a lot into the friendship and didn't get much out of it. I also find counseling these days to be a waste of time, and the last professional I went to told me I was already doing quite well and already had a lot of the skills most people lack.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Perhaps you have poor boundaries, or are simply too accepting. Those "dark" people probably crossed boundaries early on, and you brushed it off. You probably put up with things until they got too bad, and then the friendships ended after you paid a high cost. 

Pay attention to the little signs and to your feelings about how you are being treated early on, and believe you are worthy to not be trampled, taken advantage of, forgotten, used, disrespected, etc. It is a lot less painful to let an acquaintanceship just stay that way than to end a friendship. Some people should never go beyond being an acquaintance, or "a person you met once but never got to know."


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## reesespieces (Aug 3, 2009)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Perhaps you have poor boundaries, or are simply too accepting. Those "dark" people probably crossed boundaries early on, and you brushed it off. You probably put up with things until they got too bad, and then the friendships ended after you paid a high cost.
> 
> Pay attention to the little signs and to your feelings about how you are being treated early on, and believe you are worthy to not be trampled, taken advantage of, forgotten, used, disrespected, etc. It is a lot less painful to let an acquaintanceship just stay that way than to end a friendship. Some people should never go beyond being an acquaintance, or "a person you met once but never got to know."


I'm pretty confident in my current ability to set boundaries. Thankfully I'm no longer 21, or 25 and I have to admit during my 20's I left a very sheltered home and had to learn a lot of things the hard way.

Friend #2 is where I laid some firm boundaries down and she got the message. Unfortunately, one thing I've noticed as a woman is you're viewed as a ***** by setting boundaries, or an uncaring person. I told this friend I wasn't attempting to be mean, or uncaring (in fact, I cared about her a lot), but wasn't willing to go down a dark path just to be her friend. 

Another downside I've noticed (and kind of accepted) is by believing I can be friends with sane, well-adjusted and healthy people, it means my standards are too high. Or, it wasn't fair for me to expect kindness and understanding from other people when I won't give it to them in the first place.


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## reesespieces (Aug 3, 2009)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Would you say you are assertive (enough)?
> 
> A veteran poster here, once said something that I found very useful, and have added to my repertoire of defensive skills: for the first few months of any friendship, don't offer to do anything for people (favors, loans, car rides, petsitting etc etc). If the people hang around you still, that means they are interested in you, not what you can do for them.


I'd say I'm assertive enough-- it's something I finally figured out after turning 30. Due to some other non-friendship extenuating circumstances, I learned to develop thick skin. 

With friend #3, my level of assertiveness and setting down boundaries allowed the friendship to be fairly normal and he saw that I wasn't going to budge. His personality changed due to some medication, but that's kind of a separate issue. Long story short, when I put this connection together I found out he wasn't willing to get the help he needed and have distanced myself since. 

I think you've hit something in the defensive skills advice-- it wasn't something I knew in my 20's. This isn't an excuse, but I come from a culture where it's expected of women to be very helpful, giving, etc. in friendships. This thinking carried over into my personality in my 20's and it did a lot of damage. It's taken me a while to shed this unhealthy level of codependency-type behavior. For instance, my mom thinks it's terrible for me to set boundaries (we're Asian) and unsurprisingly she has no respect for them.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

notmyrealname4 said:


> *You're (unwittingly) putting out signals that you will help and/or put up with them.
> *
> Usually it's because, deep down inside, YOU want to be rescued and taken care of; so you put out that vibe. It attracts people who need to be looked after.
> 
> ...


Can you describe what those signals might look like to someone else.


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## reesespieces (Aug 3, 2009)

notmyrealname4 said:


> No. I can't. This is something I have to work on myself. I relate to OP.
> 
> I don't attract "dark-sided" people.
> 
> ...


No, you haven't derailed at all. I think you've mentioned some things that are good to keep in mind.

Like you, I too, have done things to maintain the peace. I valued "being nice" to people, even at the expense of my self-respect. One of the non-friendship related circumstances I alluded to earlier was a really hostile work environment. That threw me for a curve ball, but it was the thing that caused me to accept confrontation when it was necessary and be less concerned about being liked and nice, and more to do with gaining respect.

I honestly think my anger and frustration issues with life might be a thing I was "transmitting" to some of these people. Birds of a feather do flock together, and they don't always flock together for good reasons.

To put it a different way, it's like weight loss. It's a change that requires confrontation with yourself, food, setting self-respect and boundaries expectations, and change. I actually find it _easier_ to lose weight, than it is to make good friends!


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Keeping Good Company: Why You Should Surround Yourself With Good People


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

reesespieces said:


> After a discussion I had with someone recently, it occurred to me in the last few years I have a tendency to befriend people with very dark sides to them. The sad part to this is, I'm completely clueless about it and don't learn until it hits me in the face or until someone else clues me in. To avoid a TL;DR, I'll list what's happened:
> 
> 1. In my 20's I had a good male friend who eventually became a roommate. I started to see his darker side a little before we became roommates, but it was full on after we were roommates. We're no longer friends.
> 
> ...



Sounds like they were putting out some red flags you were missing. Maybe you are one of those people who always want to see the good in someone.




reesespieces said:


> 1. In my 20's I had a good male friend who eventually became a roommate. I started to see his darker side a little before we became roommates


 Red Flag, don't become roommates. 



reesespieces said:


> 2. In my late 20's I befriended a woman who was a little older than me, but we seemed to have a lot in common and got along rather well. She had some problems at the time (financial and homeless)


 Red Flag, long term homelessness is often caused by mental illness. 



reesespieces said:


> 3. In my late 20's/early 30's I became friends with a male classmate who did share with me on time he had depression, but that didn't scare me off or anything. We met each other's SO's. Over time I started to notice weird patterns of behavior...he's been accosting women for sex despite having a gf and was going after _anyone._ They recently broke up and she warned me about his behavior--I've distanced myself since. I don't want him sending me pictures of his penis.


 Sounds like you are learning. Look you are going to bump into sh_tty people from time to time. Just slow down before you make them close friends, and be quick to kick them to the curve if they show you they suck. Close friends (the kind you truly make yourself vulnerable to) should be reserved for people you have known for many years.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> Sounds like they were putting out some red flags you were missing. Maybe you are one of those people who always want to see the good in someone.


Additionally, if you seek advice, most people default at giving others the benefit of the doubt ....... especially when they are not involved and have nothing to lose if those go wrong.


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## reesespieces (Aug 3, 2009)

NextTimeAround said:


> Additionally, if you seek advice, most people default at giving others the benefit of the doubt ....... especially when they are not involved and have nothing to lose if those go wrong.


I believe this is true according to my observations. When you're younger and naive, without much life experience due to being sheltered or controlling parents (like myself), it's hard to distinguish what is and isn't wrong sometimes. When I young and sought out advice, I was often chastised for not being understanding enough, being selfish, immature, naive, etc. when I expressed doubts and wanted to follow my hunch-- how convenient for those adjectives to be thrown at a young woman who didn't know much! 

Nowadays when I seek out advice, it's usually through multiple sources, the internet, or books. I tend to keep the source more and more impersonal unless I know for sure the other person's been in my shoes. Another thing I've noticed is people dislike it when you use critical thinking toward personal relationships. People are more praised for getting themselves dragged through the mud and learning in hindsight, rather than having the foresight to avoid the situation in the first place. Just my observation.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

reesespieces said:


> People are more praised for getting themselves dragged through the mud and learning in hindsight, rather than having the foresight to avoid the situation in the first place. Just my observation.


You're expecting to be praised for avoiding a negative outcome? I don't disagree with you, but it's just a bit silly to expect recognition for avoiding the negative outcome. People aren't praised for NOT failing out of college, or getting fat, or losing their jobs, right? I avoided an affair when I was divorcing. I don't expect praise for it, I just carried on avoiding other problems, like ensuring our kid was in an okay place emotionally.

You are supposed to use your judgement to make good decisions. If you are at a place where you logic your way through a problem before it actually manifests, congratulations, you are now doing what most successful people do in life. 

I hope this is enough praise because it's the most you are likely to get.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

reesespieces said:


> I'm pretty confident in my current ability to set boundaries. Thankfully I'm no longer 21, or 25 and I have to admit during my 20's I left a very sheltered home and had to learn a lot of things the hard way.
> 
> Friend #2 is where I laid some firm boundaries down and she got the message. Unfortunately, one thing I've noticed as a woman is you're viewed as a ***** by setting boundaries, or an uncaring person. I told this friend I wasn't attempting to be mean, or uncaring (in fact, I cared about her a lot), but wasn't willing to go down a dark path just to be her friend.
> 
> Another downside I've noticed (and kind of accepted) is by believing I can be friends with sane, well-adjusted and healthy people, it means my standards are too high. Or, it wasn't fair for me to expect kindness and understanding from other people when I won't give it to them in the first place.


I have been very trusting and naive (to my detriment) in the past.

Regarding your friend #2. One thing I've learned over time is that when you meet someone new and their entire life story is a hard luck story, or "all" their bosses, exes, coworkers, family, etc. have wronged them and made them a victim, odds are extremely high that person is the problem and a user. Keep them at arms length.

I remember one time in Los Angeles a homeless guy I gave $5 to started going off about how no one ever comes through for him and people always let him down. I wanted to ask him -- "Who have YOU come through for lately?" But he was already agitated and I figured it probably wasn't wise to get philosophical with someone who seemed schizophrenic...

A former client of mine is now a casual friend of mine. Over the last five years I have watched her entire life spiral out of control (over FB) to where she is now homeless. When she was my client she had a pretty high up position at a very prestigious organization. We became friends and I liked her and would get together when I was in town. I noticed early on she was always telling stories about "the boys network" holding her back at work and how "men are sexist." I thought ...why have I never had these problems with men in all the different companies I've been involved with?

She lost that job.

I tried giving her work (client overflow) but something always happened where she'd say yes then at the last minute bail on my client. She was "desperate' for work, yet there was always a reason it would not work out...

She found another job but lost that one. The company "only cared about money" and replaced her position outside consultants. She found another job then lost that one - she thought they were her friends but they turned on her after she missed weeks and weeks of work due to health issues. The health issues were real but how can a company who needs someone keep a job open forever if they can't show up?

Then she had a little temp work but they stopped placing her. Suddenly companies in her industry would not even interview her.

I gave her money a few times ($700 total so far) plus bought $200 of photographs from her. 

As the months went on she got getting closer and closer to becoming homeless. I feltbad for her but couldn't overlook the fact that SHE seemed HELL BENT on self destructing.

While I was offering her $35 an hour to do easy work for me behind the scenes, she was publicly posting on FB about the humiliation of dumpster diving to collect cans to get enough money for a meal. She said she'd do the work I offered, but never did. WTF?

I see other people offering her help and solutions but there's always a reason why that won't help/work. For example she had to go to the hospital and her FB friends spent a day and a half frantically finding people to foster her 4 cats while she was hospitalized. After begging for that help, at the very last minute she says "Thank's for all the offers but I've decided I don't want strangers taking my cats. I've left them in my storage unit with food and water." 

It ended up she was in the hospital something like 10 - 15 days. Luckily someone local was able to check on her cats a couple times. 

I could go on for pages with the bizarre, self-destructive decisions she's made (I've been wanting to vent about her...) but my main point is:

Any one over a certain age who only has bad luck stories to tell -- whether they're mentally ill, an addict, or just an A-hole, they have brought the situation on themselves and if you poor too much of your own soul into trying to help them, they will suck you dry. It's exceptionally sad when it's mental illness, but at some point you have to protect yourself from their clutches and save your energy and emotions for people you really can help and who will really be a friend back to you.


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## reesespieces (Aug 3, 2009)

sapientia said:


> You're expecting to be praised for avoiding a negative outcome? I don't disagree with you, but it's just a bit silly to expect recognition for avoiding the negative outcome. People aren't praised for NOT failing out of college, or getting fat, or losing their jobs, right?


Are you saying people are praised for failing college, getting fat, and losing their jobs? When was the last time someone was given a pat on the back and told "good for you on gaining 50 pounds"?? That's odd.

My point is people tend to view avoiding poor friendships as a way to justify selfishness or not being understanding. I had a discussion with a relative, who was the one who said I wasn't giving others enough kindness and understanding. People see it as a huge negative to not withstand some level of abuse from others who have bizarre behavior.


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## reesespieces (Aug 3, 2009)

WorkingWife said:


> Any one over a certain age who only has bad luck stories to tell -- whether they're mentally ill, an addict, or just an A-hole, they have brought the situation on themselves and if you poor too much of your own soul into trying to help them, they will suck you dry. It's exceptionally sad when it's mental illness, but at some point you have to protect yourself from their clutches and save your energy and emotions for people you really can help and who will really be a friend back to you.


I agree with you. That friend of yours was bizarre! Her behavior with work sounds a lot like my friend #2.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

reesespieces said:


> I agree with you. That friend of yours was bizarre! Her behavior with work sounds a lot like my friend #2.


I've just noticed with most people -- when you meet them and they immediately start telling you what a victim they are, they are usually the problem.

My friend - so yeah! Her saga continues to this day. I don't know the whole story but something she said once gave me the impression she may have been abused by her father when she was a child. 

To talk to her you would not think she is mentally ill. She's very smart and talented, but she just will not get out of her own way. And then she posts all these "deep" things on FB about how she just needs to let Spirit and the Universe take care of her. Um... good luck with that.

I feel for her but in a detached way. I've actually known at least 3 people who were similar (though not to the extent of homelessness). But always crying 'cause they had no work but when I'd offer them work they always had some reason, at the last minute, why they didn't want to deal with it. 

It reminds me of that line form the movie Jerry McGuire: "Help Me Help You!"


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

reesespieces said:


> Are you saying people are praised for failing college, getting fat, and losing their jobs? When was the last time someone was given a pat on the back and told "good for you on gaining 50 pounds"?? That's odd.
> 
> My point is people tend to view avoiding poor friendships as a way to justify selfishness or not being understanding. I had a discussion with a relative, who was the one who said I wasn't giving others enough kindness and understanding. People see it as a huge negative to not withstand some level of abuse from others who have bizarre behavior.


I'll edit my post so that it's more explicit since you either didn't understand what I mean by "avoiding a negative" or you are deliberately pretending to not understand. I hope this is more clear:

_You're expecting to be praised for avoiding a negative outcome? I don't disagree with you, but it's just a bit silly to expect recognition for avoiding the negative outcome. People aren't praised for NOT failing out of college, or NOT getting fat, or NOT losing their jobs, right?_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

reesespieces said:


> I think you've hit something in the defensive skills advice-*- it wasn't something I knew in my 20's. This isn't an excuse, but I come from a culture where it's expected of women to be very helpful, giving, etc. in friendships. *This thinking carried over into my personality in my 20's and it did a lot of damage. It's taken me a while to shed this unhealthy level of codependency-type behavior. For instance, my mom thinks it's terrible for me to set boundaries (we're Asian) and unsurprisingly she has no respect for them.


 I've always been taught there are Good people.. and there are Bad people who can really screw your life up -getting involved with them...so stay away ... Be cautious... Don't trust strangers ...EVER....

I was always a more cautious teenager by my very nature.. I didn't trust easily...seen too many things in my life.. that I aired on the side of "until you know someone's history.. you really don't know them"... often times we can make excuses for bad behavior feeling we're doing the right thing.. a person needs wisdom. some guidance sometimes.

I watched my mom get involved with manipulative unscrupulous men..it led her to a very bad place...

I care a great deal that the people I invite into my life/ our home are honest, law abiding, trust worthy types...

I am reading a book right now about Narcissists.. ..often they are EXCITING, charming even...they lure others into their WEB.. but they are using them- for their own EGO gratification.. it's not a true "giving & receiving" that you will find in healthy boundaried relationships... 

The giver may not even realize that they are bowing to a narcissist who has no genuine care for their well being..they set you up, giving enough to keep you around..(I should copy some of this book into a post -I left the book at work though)... maybe some of this is at play here.. 

Mental illness is another challenge... if someone has a condition.. as a friend, family member.. we need to have them seek treatment..if not.. it's like your hands are tied.. People have to do so much for themselves to UP their people skills.. so they are wanted around.. ya know.. no one wants to hang around someone depressed all day, moping and complaining... it would drag anyone's spirits down ...

I suppose it takes special people who can deal with some of these things to be there...I'm not one of those, sorry to say..


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