# no way forward with so much hostility?



## davebrubeck1 (Dec 2, 2021)

Hello everyone, and thank you for being on this forum. What do you think of my situation?

I am married for seven years with two small children. We are from different countries and moved to the US shortly after getting married. We moved for my job, which was a difficult decision because I also had a job offer in her home country. We decided together that the US offer was better in terms of job security, money and career development. But our ultimate goal was to move to either her or my home country in a few years. It was hard for her since she was the trailing spouse, and I promised that the next move would be “for her”. Looking back I now doubt I really meant that. I think I hoped that we would ultimately decide our future together. Secretly I was also afraid of moving to her home country. But I never had the courage to tell her that.

Our life here in the US is pretty good materially, but she has been complaining a lot about how she hates living here. For example she refuses to go on any vacations within the US because she is convinced there’s nothing worth seeing except NYC. Her focus has been to get out of here and while I feel quite good here, I also wanted to move so that we could all be happier.

Our marriage was still pretty good when he had our first child, but went south quickly when our second was born. At that time, she had a job with a one hour commute. She told me soon that she couldn’t go on with that kind of commute and two kids anymore, and if I didn’t soon find a job outside the US she would not know how to stay in the marriage. So we started planning our move. We decided to first apply to jobs in my home country, because she (and I) likes the life style more than that of her home country.

After that, things really went downhill. I wanted to work on the Friday after Thanksgiving to get work done while I was readying my job applications. Our nanny had offered to watch the kids. My wife thought even with our nanny it would be too hard on her because she would end up watching our younger one anyway. I insisted that I wanted to get work done and that our nanny could take care of the kids. Two minutes later, she was yelling at me and said that if I continued to prioritise my work, she would leave me and take the kids away from me forever and that she hoped I will die alone. It shattered me so much I curled up on the kitchen floor trembling. She didn’t apologise for a week. Then she offered a half-hearted apology and said that “of course” she would never leave me, but that I had just been very disrespectful. It felt strange because she seemed to just downplay the whole thing.

I ended up with two job offers in my home country. Both were respectable positions, but a steep pay cut from my current salary. I had expected having to make sacrifices and we had talked about needing to take a pay cut. Still, my wife was shocked by the salary offers and told me that she didn’t want to be poor in old age, sleeping under a bridge. I got very insecure but also tried to convince her (and myself) that these offers could be worthwhile, that they could afford us a comfortable though not luxurious life, that the cost of living was lower than in the US, and that living in a country we like may be worth the risks. She countered that I only had myself in mind and didn’t care about providing for our family. This struck me as wrong but she later clarified she meant providing for our family to her standards, which I had promised after all.

Then I got defensive, and made two big mistakes. One day I told her that the pasta brand we usually buy costs twice as much in my home country and that we should look for other equally good brands instead. I wanted to show her an example of how we can save money and still have a good quality of life. When she argued back, I dug in my heels and basically said that I’m the reasonable one here. The second mistake happened when we were planning a budget to see whether we could make ends meet with my offers. She insisted that we need to finance everything only from my salary even though she was determined to also find a job. I then offered that the best way to expand the household budget would be to have two incomes instead of one in the budget. These two episodes have left her with a deep sense of betrayal. In her view, they revealed that I don’t care about her needs at all. I am telling her what she can or cannot eat while I continue living my life and don’t sacrifice anything, and ask her to go find her own money if she wants things I don’t think are necessary. She mentioned that I should “treat her like a queen” but instead I just “trample” on her feelings. She claims to have realized I have no decency inside me.

I saw I was making her unhappy but couldn’t talk to her without her blowing up every time. I turned down both offers. That was six months ago. Things have kept getting worse. She gave me the silent treatment for days on end. She shouted and cursed a lot, sometimes in front of the kids. She insists that we are no longer a team and that she is now only going to look out for herself. When I mentioned that her behaviour hurts me, she stated quite clearly it’s my problem and that I do not deserve any respect or empathy. She is cold, passive-aggressive and sometimes openly hostile. 

One particularly hurtful thing concerns my parents. They were excited at the prospect of us moving closer to them, and repeatedly assured my wife that she would also “find something” that satisfies her career goals in my home country, like she did here in the US. She now thinks that they were manipulating me, that I’m siding with them against her, and that they don’t respect her and couldn’t care less if she ended up being a cleaning lady or a maid. She does not want to see them and also does not allow our children to see my parents because they would be a bad influence on them. My parents have written pleas and apologies which she has ignored. My father turned 80 recently. After I told him my wife wouldn’t want us to visit, he offered to visit us instead. She has not allowed that and refused to congratulate him because it would hurt her pride. 

I have repeatedly asked her to go to couples counselling with me, but she refuses on the ground that it would be useless, because the problem is simple: I am indecent and don’t know right from wrong. She does not need counselling to understand that. Besides, no amount of counselling or therapy could ever change me.

I have asked her many times what I can do to make it right. The responses have varied greatly, but none offer a way forward. She first asked that I should apologise to her. I wrote an eight-page apology letter, which she didn’t open for five days then skimmed and said it wasn’t sincere. She also said I should apologise to her parents for disrespecting their daughter. When I offered to do so, she changed her mind and said it wouldn’t be sincere. Once, she offered that I need to feel at least as miserable as she did for the six years that we have been here. More recently, she is demanding that I find a job in her home country by next year. That would show that I am finally putting her interest above mine. I would like to do that, but I have a bad feeling about moving anywhere right now with our marriage in such disarray. I am afraid that after we move to her home country, she will just feel more enabled to file for divorce. I told her about this fear and she flatly said that it’s true and that’s what she wants. At the same time, she insists it’s the only way for me to show I care for her.

Is it possible to recover from this? I feel like I made mistakes but don’t deserve this treatment. I don’t want to leave. I am seeing a therapist but feel like the sessions are going nowhere. What options do I have?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

davebrubeck1 said:


> Hello everyone, and thank you for being on this forum. What do you think of my situation?
> 
> I am married for seven years with two small children. We are from different countries and moved to the US shortly after getting married. We moved for my job, which was a difficult decision because I also had a job offer in her home country. We decided together that the US offer was better in terms of job security, money and career development. But our ultimate goal was to move to either her or my home country in a few years. It was hard for her since she was the trailing spouse, and I promised that the next move would be “for her”. Looking back I now doubt I really meant that. I think I hoped that we would ultimately decide our future together. Secretly I was also afraid of moving to her home country. But I never had the courage to tell her that.
> 
> ...


She sounds a bit off and sounds like she'll find any reason to cause a fight. Don't be so ready to bear all the responsibility for the current disagreeable circumstances.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

So she's ordering you to prove your love by moving to a country where she has already told you that her first action once there will be to divorce you? Am I understanding that correctly?


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

She feels like you are the enemy and the reason for her negative feelings, when she very likely would have felt the way she does (unhappy) even in her own country.

Her way of dealing with these important discussions (silent treatment, exploding, yelling) are all immature and childish.

Are your kids US citizens? I don't think she can just up and take them to whatever country without your permision.

Sometimes you have to be willing to lose the relationship to fix it and I think you are at that fork in the road. I think you should tell her that her immature and selfish behavior is the reason your marriage is failing and that you are going to marriage counseling, give her the dates and times, and if she shows, she shows... regardless it is happening. If she doesn't show, use that time with the counselor to help you through the feelings you will have while you divorce her.... and have her served right away.

She needs a wake up call. Call BS on her where BS needs to be called. Do not allow her to get away with these behaviors without commenting about them.... but always take the high road.... do not match her behaviors because you are just stooping to her level.

Sorry this is happening, but it sounds to me like your relationship may already be over. Resentment has built on both sides, which is a common relationship killer.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

She sounds like a nightmare. She really does. I think your life with her is going to be very unhappy, but there probably isn't much you can do except learn to stand up for yourself and not cower when she acts like a horrible person.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Since you cannot, under any circumstances, do anything right for her, then do what is wrong for her.

Divorce her, let her fend for herself.

She is absolutely miserable, and has not a lick of sense.
She is depressed and is flatly out of her mind.

The worst part of her is freely flapping, and is tightly connected to her wagging tongue.
It would be too kind to call her a shrew.

There is no good to this woman.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I think she's being extremely unreasonable about the finances. She needs to be sharing expenses out of her earnings as well. I can't stand people who think they need to be treated like a queen but then I have even less respect for those men who go along with that. She's not a Queen. She's a pretentious selfish little troublemaker. 

I don't blame her at all for not wanting to commute an hour to work, but she's always going to get herself in that sort of situation with the attitude that there's no place in the United States worth being than New York City which is a hell hole to live in and work and commute in compared to other places. That just shows how little she knows about everything. 

I'm glad she at least is okay with going to where your parents are. But unless there's some class thing or some marriage deal that was financial that you made as part of an arranged marriage or something like that, I say start treating her like an equal partner and not a queen and stop apologizing for everything. She sounds awful. Stop having kids. It's going to be a big mess if you try to divorce her sometime and if you're going to do it you better be sure you know what the laws are there about moving away from your children once you're divorced and sharing custody. In the United States you will be stuck where you are unless both parents agree to move to the same place. Neither parent would be allowed to move where there was a long commute to see the children. 

So if I were you if you think this marriage may not last, my first consideration would be where is the place I want to get stuck living.


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## davebrubeck1 (Dec 2, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> So she's ordering you to prove your love by moving to a country where she has already told you that her first action once there will be to divorce you? Am I understanding that correctly?


Yes, that's what she says. I said that it doesn't make any sense and she just sat there and said nothing... sometimes I feel like I'm in some surreal movie.


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## davebrubeck1 (Dec 2, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think she's being extremely unreasonable about the finances. She needs to be sharing expenses out of her earnings as well. I can't stand people who think they need to be treated like a queen but then I have even less respect for those men who go along with that. She's not a Queen. She's a pretentious selfish little troublemaker.
> 
> I don't blame her at all for not wanting to commute an hour to work, but she's always going to get herself in that sort of situation with the attitude that there's no place in the United States worth being than New York City which is a hell hole to live in and work and commute in compared to other places. That just shows how little she knows about everything.
> 
> ...


Thanks for offering your thoughts. I didn't mention this in the original post but the thing is that she actually does share expenses and is in fact very frugal. That's why the "queen" comment and her anger over the budget hit me from left field.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

davebrubeck1 said:


> Thanks for offering your thoughts. I didn't mention this in the original post but the thing is that she actually does share expenses and is in fact very frugal. That's why the "queen" comment and her anger over the budget hit me from left field.


Anyone who demands to be treated like a queen has a real distorted image of themselves and sounds pretty narcissistic or at least a wannabe Queen, which is beyond pathetic. I'm glad she shares expenses, but I don't understand that because you said in your post that she wanted you to finance out of your earnings.


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## davebrubeck1 (Dec 2, 2021)

re16 said:


> She feels like you are the enemy and the reason for her negative feelings, when she very likely would have felt the way she does (unhappy) even in her own country.
> 
> Her way of dealing with these important discussions (silent treatment, exploding, yelling) are all immature and childish.
> 
> ...


This is very thoughtful. You're absolutely right resentment has built on both sides, and a lot of it. I hope that we can get back together somehow. My parents divorced and I always wanted to avoid that fate but it just feels so hopeless right now.


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## davebrubeck1 (Dec 2, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Anyone who demands to be treated like a queen has a real distorted image of themselves and sounds pretty narcissistic or at least a wannabe Queen, which is beyond pathetic. I'm glad she shares expenses, but I don't understand that because you said in your post that she wanted you to finance out of your earnings.


I'm struggling with the narcissism label but maybe that's what it is. 

She explained that she wants to finance out of my earnings because she is not sure she can find work there (language barrier) and so the worst case is that only I will bring home money. I get that and maybe I didn't take her worries seriously enough. But the reaction to all of it just seems really distorted.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Can you get her in language classes so that she can speak the language once she gets there?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

davebrubeck1 said:


> Yes, that's what she says. I said that it doesn't make any sense and she just sat there and said nothing... sometimes I feel like I'm in some surreal movie.


I'm honestly stumped. That behavior is so out of bounds, immature and ridiculous, I can't imagine how you've tolerated it this long.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I think you undermined her sense of security, living in another country taking care of young kids is not easy esp. if you are away from your support network. Then when your husband undermines your sense of security, this is a serious matter which will not simply go away. Resentment has now built up on both sides. She probably feels she has been making alot of sacrifices.
She also seems to have some internal issues, insecurities. I sense you are from a traditional culture (perhaps African, this idea of being a queen comes from there which is alien to the western culture).
I suggest she works on herself and you yourself through IC, then make decisions after this. Do not make decisions now. She needs to get a life outside of home and work. How supportive have you been to enable her to do this?


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

davebrubeck1 said:


> She mentioned that I should “*treat her like a queen”*


What you are dealing w/ is called Relational Aggression. Abusive control.

You already have for your entire marriage. That's the root of your problem. You have no control over this lady. You have allowed her to walk all over you. Go nuclear and dump her. Start standing up for yourself.  You conceded your leadership role as a man to appease her and this is the typical result. The early confrontations weren't worth it, right. Anything to keep the peace was your motto. You gave an inch each time until it was a mile. But she's still never satisfied. And never will be.



davebrubeck1 said:


> It shattered me so much* I curled up on the kitchen floor trembling.*


Looks like you have backbone issues. You've been beaten down good. There are a lot of guys who live like this their entire lives. This isn't a good response although your wife liked it because she knows she's got you in a vice grip.

read No More Mr Nice Guy -- robert glover. download it for free.

Download The Manipulated Man -- ester villar. 

You are Lost because you think this is how you are supposed to live. Start by finding yourself a good divorce lawyer and move on.  Take back control in your life.

Watch this video.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Where did you meet your wife? You are from two different countries - is there a culture clash? It would be helpful if you named the countries.


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## sweet.green.tea (Nov 4, 2021)

There is no way I would allow my spouse to prevent me from having my children see my parents over nothing more than a temper tantrum. That is unacceptable. Stand up for yourself and find somewhere to divorce her so you aren't stuck in her home country, without support, so she can create more of a divide between you, your children, and your parents.


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## davebrubeck1 (Dec 2, 2021)

aine said:


> I think you undermined her sense of security, living in another country taking care of young kids is not easy esp. if you are away from your support network. Then when your husband undermines your sense of security, this is a serious matter which will not simply go away. Resentment has now built up on both sides. She probably feels she has been making alot of sacrifices.
> She also seems to have some internal issues, insecurities. I sense you are from a traditional culture (perhaps African, this idea of being a queen comes from there which is alien to the western culture).
> I suggest she works on herself and you yourself through IC, then make decisions after this. Do not make decisions now. She needs to get a life outside of home and work. How supportive have you been to enable her to do this?


This is spot on, exactly how she explains it to me when she's calm. She is quite isolated here and has lived on the hope of getting out of here. As far as I can see she hasn't formed any meaningful friendships here. She's 100 percent focused on the kids. Insecurity is definitely a big issue, in both of us.

How supportive have I been? That's a good question. I think I just left it to her to establish her own network, and we never really talked about how she felt about this. How can one be supportive of your partner getting a life outside of home and work?


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## davebrubeck1 (Dec 2, 2021)

manowar said:


> Go nuclear and dump her.


I'm not giving up yet.


manowar said:


> Looks like you have backbone issues. You've been beaten down good. There are a lot of guys who live like this their entire lives. This isn't a good response although your wife liked it because she knows she's got you in a vice grip.


Yes, you're right. I need to do that and man up.


manowar said:


> Download The Manipulated Man -- ester villar.


I heard of that but isn't that an extreme fringe opinion? I did recently read Peterson's 12 rules though, and that was a real eye opener!


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

davebrubeck1 said:


> I'm not giving up yet.
> 
> Yes, you're right. I need to do that and man up.
> 
> I heard of that but isn't that an extreme fringe opinion? I did recently read Peterson's 12 rules though, and that was a real eye opener!


Have you read any of therationalmale.com?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I see a problem from the beginning. She moved on the promise that later you would move to your country. You never intended to do that. So the whole relationship is built on something she now realize is a lie. She's stuck either way. Stay her or move she's married to someone who lied about something that was pretty important. She is isolated here. 

I agree with her on the finances just from a fiscal standpoint. You don't move someplace assuming money that isn't in hand. You have a job you move on your salary even if that means renting something small until you both have established jobs. That's just fiscally sound.

Now the question is .... Is she trying to simply not work. That's a different question. That's a different negotiation. You two should talk about that honestly. Would it be fair for her not to work when moving to yet another country she doesn't want to be in? What would the expectation for her work be? If she can't find a job in her field would she be expected to work whatever she could get including housekeeping?


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## davebrubeck1 (Dec 2, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> So the whole relationship is built on something she now realize is a lie. She's stuck either way. Stay her or move she's married to someone who lied about something that was pretty important. She is isolated here.


That's probably true. It's a little more nuanced because we had both agreed to look for a life in my home country first. But I had promised when we moved here that our next move would be "for her" but in the end I still wanted to negotiate and have equal say. Looking back, I think I really did lie to her. And that shattered her world.



Anastasia6 said:


> Now the question is .... Is she trying to simply not work. That's a different question. That's a different negotiation. You two should talk about that honestly. Would it be fair for her not to work when moving to yet another country she doesn't want to be in? What would the expectation for her work be? If she can't find a job in her field would she be expected to work whatever she could get including housekeeping?


She's very adamant that she wants to work and I have no reason to believe otherwise. We never talked explicitly about what she would do if she couldn't find a job in her field. I always assumed she would find something, as she has a very good Masters' degree in a STEM field and managerial job experience in multinational companies. I would never ask her, or expect her, to accept a housekeeping job, or any job for which a university degree isn't required! That said, just assuming everything would work out for her was probably selfish.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

davebrubeck1 said:


> That's probably true. It's a little more nuanced because we had both agreed to look for a life in my home country first. But I had promised when we moved here that our next move would be "for her" but in the end I still wanted to negotiate and have equal say. Looking back, I think I really did lie to her. And that shattered her world.
> 
> 
> She's very adamant that she wants to work and I have no reason to believe otherwise. We never talked explicitly about what she would do if she couldn't find a job in her field. I always assumed she would find something, as she has a very good Masters' degree in a STEM field and managerial job experience in multinational companies. I would never ask her, or expect her, to accept a housekeeping job, or any job for which a university degree isn't required! That said, just assuming everything would work out for her was probably selfish.


It isn't so much selfish as bad fiscal planning. I'm the finance person in our family and I would never plan a move depending on a non existent income. Also if you haven't talked about how would she know what you are saying?

In addition it goes back to the premise that you have 'equal' say in the move. Seems like both moves are the ones you wanted. So that seems like you have THE say.


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## davebrubeck1 (Dec 2, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> It isn't so much selfish as bad fiscal planning. I'm the finance person in our family and I would never plan a move depending on a non existent income. Also if you haven't talked about how would she know what you are saying?
> 
> In addition it goes back to the premise that you have 'equal' say in the move. Seems like both moves are the ones you wanted. So that seems like you have THE say.


Huh. That's a good point.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

davebrubeck1 said:


> I heard of that but isn't that an* extreme fringe* opinion? I



This is your problem buddy. thinking like this. thinking within the realm of Chivalry and romantic courtly love. Your belief system is clearly fostered by the gynocentric model -- this right here is why you haven't manned up. You my friend are your own worst enemy. This is why you are weak.

Simply making that comment shows you have a brain that needs to be rewired.

Your wife says Treat me like a queen. Why don't you believe she should treat you like a King? Especially for all the sacrifices, you have made; the countless hours of work to give her material comfort. All of it is unappreciated. Yet you think it's your fault because hey she's a woman after all. This has never crossed your mind because you've been trained as a circus seal to give, produce and provide. Again this is the false notion of Romantic courtly love you have adopted like a mind virus.

There's another thing going on. Your woman may be acting up because you lack a backbone and that's what she desperately wants. A dominant man who will stand up to her and she's actually lost all respect for you because of this.

*Watch as many of the videos on An Ear FOR MEN * -- *this is what you need.* Instead of worrying about extreme fringe material that may be insensitive to your gynoscentric conditioned beliefs.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Have you read any of therationalmale.com?


Read this book and watch his videos.. The Rational Male;

Read the unplugged alpha - rich cooper. Watch videos. You are a beta provider. Google it.




Anastasia6 said:


> the premise that you have 'equal' say in the move.


You are the submissive in this relationship. You have little power in it and you know it. 

You have a long way to go Amigo. Whatever you do ---- *Do not move to her country.* This is where she'll get complete control over you and devour you. She has what she wants from you. Seed for children and provisioning. You are suffering from the 5 stages of manipulation which is the final coup de grâce. Refer to _Female psychology for the practical man_ - joe south. Download it. This process is discussed.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> Where did you meet your wife? You are from two different countries - is there a culture clash? It would be helpful if you named the countries.


It seems you don't want to answer these very basic questions.


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## davebrubeck1 (Dec 2, 2021)

Blondilocks said:


> It seems you don't want to answer these very basic questions.


Yes, I don’t want to name the countries as I’d like to remain fairly anonymous. I’ll go as far as saying I’m from Europe and she’s from Asia.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

davebrubeck1 said:


> Yes, I don’t want to name the countries as I’d like to remain fairly anonymous. I’ll go as far as saying I’m from Europe and she’s from Asia.



Had a feeling she was Asian. It's up to you Brubeck to fix this. Start over while you are still young enough. No one is coming to save you.


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## Galabar01 (Mar 20, 2019)

There are lots of fun things to do in the US: Vegas, Disney Land/World, Grand Canyon, various amazing national parks, all kinds of places to drive and check out, food, etc.. Take a vacation to Martha's Vineyard, or the Florida Keys. Go visit Seattle or go skiing in Maine. I mean, there is just so much...

p.s. Sweden/Thailand?


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## davebrubeck1 (Dec 2, 2021)

manowar said:


> Read this book and watch his videos.. The Rational Male;
> 
> Read the unplugged alpha - rich cooper. Watch videos. You are a beta provider. Google it.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your wanting to help. Thank you. I looked through your links but this is definitely too angry, too redpill for me. Won’t go that route. But I agree I got a long way to go and need to take care of who I am, what I want, what I should let go.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

davebrubeck1 said:


> I appreciate your wanting to help. Thank you. I looked through your links but this is definitely too angry, too redpill for me. Won’t go that route. But I agree I got a long way to go and need to take care of who I am, what I want, what I should let go.



Hey you gave it a try. Maybe some of the ideas here will start you on another path. I hope you find your way.


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## AGoodFlogging (Dec 19, 2020)

Sounds like the fallout of a dream or plan hitting a reality that makes it unworkable.

Saying that, her reaction is toxic and unhelpful and puts you in a no win situation.

As such, I'd suggest two things:

1) make sure that you don't allow her to push you into something that will be bad for you and your kids.
2) you need to have a proper recalibration of your marriage and what your future is. Rather than drip feeding factoids about pasta and salary offers at her.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

davebrubeck1 said:


> This is spot on, exactly how she explains it to me when she's calm. She is quite isolated here and has lived on the hope of getting out of here. As far as I can see she hasn't formed any meaningful friendships here. She's 100 percent focused on the kids. Insecurity is definitely a big issue, in both of us.
> 
> How supportive have I been? That's a good question. I think I just left it to her to establish her own network, and we never really talked about how she felt about this. How can one be supportive of your partner getting a life outside of home and work?


I understand this as I have moved to many countries as the partner, after giving up a career and it was painful, being stuck at home, doing housework, taking care of kids, etc. It is easy to sink into a depression and with small kids it makes it more difficult to go out and do other things that helps to establish a network.
I would suggest you get someone to baby sit at least one day a week, she join a women's group e.g. mother's club, a book club, sports club, something that she herself enjoys. Are you members of a church/mosque, etc. Ask her to have coffee mornings, something where she can make friends from the local community. I joined the mothers from the kids schools, I worked as librarian in the school, did volunteer work, it helped me to get out and also make contacts.
Perhaps she needs to get rid of the notion that you are both leaving US and try and make a go of it. Once that changes in her head and heart then help her to join some group of women, you can babysit in the evening for example or to host a group in your home.
What did she enjoy doing before you were married?
The other thing is, it's easy to blame the husband (wife) and blame them for what is happening, but she must take responsibility for herself. You are both in this together.
I found that understanding was key, do not dismiss her feelings, she many not be looking for a solution but for you to understand how she is feeling (women are all about emotions and just want to be heard, validate her feelings). If you support her in this, get her to come out of herself, start living life, establishing friendships, then your marriage will blossom and you can move on. Just keep communication channels open.
In addition, she is not there just for your domestic support. When is the last time you took her on a date/ complimented her, told her you were proud of her and all she does for you and the kids? I know you work hard, but she is also working hard. In the midst of this you have forgotten each other.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

davebrubeck1 said:


> That's probably true. It's a little more nuanced because we had both agreed to look for a life in my home country first. But I had promised when we moved here that our next move would be "for her" but in the end I still wanted to negotiate and have equal say. Looking back, I think I really did lie to her. And that shattered her world.
> 
> 
> She's very adamant that she wants to work and I have no reason to believe otherwise. We never talked explicitly about what she would do if she couldn't find a job in her field. I always assumed she would find something, as she has a very good Masters' degree in a STEM field and managerial job experience in multinational companies. I would never ask her, or expect her, to accept a housekeeping job, or any job for which a university degree isn't required! That said, just assuming everything would work out for her was probably selfish.


i think you are beginning to realise that your wife is not there for your benefit only. She also has dreams, appears highly educated but you have not factored her into the decision making. Being highly educated, stuck at home with no outlet is soul destroying, been there done that and it takes a lot of time to adjust esp in a foreign country. You need to communicate with her, validate her and support her in her dreams, not just your own. Then you will have a happy household.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

On another note, in most countries there are expatriate networks, clubs, groups from the home country. Tell her to look out for one of those and join it.


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## davebrubeck1 (Dec 2, 2021)

AGoodFlogging said:


> Sounds like the fallout of a dream or plan hitting a reality that makes it unworkable.
> 
> Saying that, her reaction is toxic and unhelpful and puts you in a no win situation.
> 
> ...


Thank you. That sounds like the start of a plan.


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## SophiaT (Dec 5, 2021)

manowar said:


> Had a feeling she was Asian. It's up to you Brubeck to fix this. Start over while you are still young enough. No one is coming to save you.


I am curious, what did he say about his wife in the post make you feel she might be Asian?


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## davebrubeck1 (Dec 2, 2021)

aine said:


> I understand this as I have moved to many countries as the partner, after giving up a career and it was painful, being stuck at home, doing housework, taking care of kids, etc. It is easy to sink into a depression and with small kids it makes it more difficult to go out and do other things that helps to establish a network.
> I would suggest you get someone to baby sit at least one day a week, she join a women's group e.g. mother's club, a book club, sports club, something that she herself enjoys. Are you members of a church/mosque, etc. Ask her to have coffee mornings, something where she can make friends from the local community. I joined the mothers from the kids schools, I worked as librarian in the school, did volunteer work, it helped me to get out and also make contacts.
> Perhaps she needs to get rid of the notion that you are both leaving US and try and make a go of it. Once that changes in her head and heart then help her to join some group of women, you can babysit in the evening for example or to host a group in your home.
> What did she enjoy doing before you were married?
> ...


Thank you Aine for sharing this. It seems like you were in a tough spot but managed to climb out of it. My respect to you. 
Your suggestions are good. I agree we both need to take more responsibility for ourselves and our marriage. I should have communicated with and validated her more before we planned this move. Way more.

I do want to say that I try to compliment her often. I tell her at least once a week that I appreciate what she does for our family and for our kids. Before the pandemic we did go on dates and that was great and we had much more of a connection. More recently I tried to take her on a date again but she just said she doesn't see why she should spend time with me. 



aine said:


> You need to communicate with her, validate her and support her in her dreams, not just your own. Then you will have a happy household.


But how to get there now? I realised about six months ago that we had different visions for our move and that I had failed to see and respect hers. I apologised to her dozens of times, wrote her a letter, asked what I can do to make it right. I offered to go through the Gottman book together so I could get to know her better and understand her better. I asked her to come to couples counselling. I asked whether she would want to draw up a plan together to heal our marriage. No to everything. The anger just keeps on going. My therapist said it's emotional abuse and that I should draw boundaries. Ok, but of course that didn't make it better either. 

Probably the best thing is to draw up a plan for healing our marriage on my own, and then talk to her about it. And in that, make sure to emphasise that this is for both of us and not just me. But I'm afraid it's going to end like everything else lately, in a torrent of anger.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

davebrubeck1 said:


> Thank you Aine for sharing this. It seems like you were in a tough spot but managed to climb out of it. My respect to you.
> Your suggestions are good. I agree we both need to take more responsibility for ourselves and our marriage. I should have communicated with and validated her more before we planned this move. Way more.
> 
> I do want to say that I try to compliment her often. I tell her at least once a week that I appreciate what she does for our family and for our kids. Before the pandemic we did go on dates and that was great and we had much more of a connection. More recently I tried to take her on a date again but she just said she doesn't see why she should spend time with me.
> ...


There has to be a limit and you need to tell her this. You know you messed up, you are really sorry and want to make it right but she has to stop holding onto the resentment otherwise there is no basis to work from and you might as well go your separate ways if she is intent on punishing you forever. It is also not good for the children to grow up in such a household. She needs to be in IC herself to learn how to deal with life's disappointments and to take responsibility for her side of the road in all of this. The whole responsibility for where you are not, does not solely rest with you.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

SophiaT said:


> I am curious, what did he say about his wife in the post make you feel she might be Asian?


Because he said so:



davebrubeck1 said:


> Yes, I don’t want to name the countries as I’d like to remain fairly anonymous. I’ll go as far as saying I’m from Europe and she’s from Asia.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

davebrubeck1 said:


> Thank you Aine for sharing this. It seems like you were in a tough spot but managed to climb out of it. My respect to you.
> Your suggestions are good. I agree we both need to take more responsibility for ourselves and our marriage. I should have communicated with and validated her more before we planned this move. Way more.
> 
> I do want to say that I try to compliment her often. I tell her at least once a week that I appreciate what she does for our family and for our kids. Before the pandemic we did go on dates and that was great and we had much more of a connection. More recently I tried to take her on a date again but she just said she doesn't see why she should spend time with me.
> ...


I dont' want to sound harsh but this is what I would be hearing if I was your wife.

Despite the fact that we are supposed to move this time to a place you want, we are going to do exactly what I want. Now how do I make you still like me even though I keep saying sorry and such...
I mean I'm happy with my choice why can't you be... sorry.

Actions are what matter. The truth here is you have unilaterally made decisions that effect her whole life and now you just want her to be okay. 

Of course the anger keeps coming. Have you offered to actually keep your word and look for a job closer to her choice of country?

Europe and Asia are two very different cultures and language. So she came here to the US which is closer to European culture and language than Asian. Am I right in assuming you now want to move to a country which is also closer to European culture?

Have you ever wondered if you had told her way back when that you would not consider ever living in Asian culture countries and that you would expect her to follow you around European based countries if she would have chosen to still marry you and follow you to the US?

You want to do Gottman. Well from her standpoint what's broken in the marriage is your promises. How is Gottman going to fix that?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

aine said:


> There has to be a limit and you need to tell her this. You know you messed up, you are really sorry and want to make it right but she has to stop holding onto the resentment otherwise there is no basis to work from and you might as well go your separate ways if she is intent on punishing you forever. It is also not good for the children to grow up in such a household. She needs to be in IC herself to learn how to deal with life's disappointments and to take responsibility for her side of the road in all of this. The whole responsibility for where you are not, does not solely rest with you.


Yes there should be a limit to the amount of promises he can break before all her trust in him also breaks.


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## davebrubeck1 (Dec 2, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> I dont' want to sound harsh but this is what I would be hearing if I was your wife.
> 
> Despite the fact that we are supposed to move this time to a place you want, we are going to do exactly what I want. Now how do I make you still like me even though I keep saying sorry and such...
> I mean I'm happy with my choice why can't you be... sorry.
> ...


Thank you for continuing to engage here. That is very close indeed to what she is hearing, by her own telling.



Anastasia6 said:


> Have you offered to actually keep your word and look for a job closer to her choice of country?
> 
> Europe and Asia are two very different cultures and language. So she came here to the US which is closer to European culture and language than Asian. Am I right in assuming you now want to move to a country which is also closer to European culture?


So here it gets murky. Of course I have offered to look for jobs in her home country as well, way before I started job applications. She then responded that we should first look in my home country because she likes it better there. My parents have also asked her whether she wouldn't want to move back home and she said no, life is too stressful there.

Now I guess you could make a case that I subconsciously manipulated her into thinking and saying these things, and that she has now awakened to the fact that she's been manipulated all along by this selfish person. But... if I'm the gaslighter, why is she the one who is demeaning and I'm the one who keeps apologizing?

Only about two months ago did she start demanding that we move to her home country, but this was accompanied by so much anger and ultimately by her saying she would divorce me once we did. Now I'm not moving anywhere for the time being. I'm willing to move to her home country if it will restore our marriage, but not if it will destroy it.



Anastasia6 said:


> You want to do Gottman. Well from her standpoint what's broken in the marriage is your promises. How is Gottman going to fix that?


My hope was that it would allow us to build healthy communication styles that will allow us to talk about my broken promise, as well as other issues in our marriage, in a constructive way that focuses on planning for the future. Does that not sound right?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

davebrubeck1 said:


> Thank you for continuing to engage here. That is very close indeed to what she is hearing, by her own telling.
> 
> 
> So here it gets murky. Of course I have offered to look for jobs in her home country as well, way before I started job applications. She then responded that we should first look in my home country because she likes it better there. My parents have also asked her whether she wouldn't want to move back home and she said no, life is too stressful there.
> ...


Well you two certainly need better communication. Other than this move is there other topics that seems to have this resentment? So she offered your home country but you got a job somewhere else and not her country or a country of her choice? So now you aren't moving at all. How does she feel about staying here? Has she said where she does want to live?

Let's go back to this recent job in a country not yours or hers that was the plan (a couple of days ago). How did you go about looking for a job there? I mean had you two discussed where to move next and then you applied?


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## davebrubeck1 (Dec 2, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Well you two certainly need better communication. Other than this move is there other topics that seems to have this resentment? So she offered your home country but you got a job somewhere else and not her country or a country of her choice? So now you aren't moving at all. How does she feel about staying here? Has she said where she does want to live?
> 
> Let's go back to this recent job in a country not yours or hers that was the plan (a couple of days ago). How did you go about looking for a job there? I mean had you two discussed where to move next and then you applied?


Wait, I need to clarify. There was and is no job or job search in a country other than hers or mine. The plan a year ago was to find something in my home country first and I vetted all applications with her. That's where I got the two offers. But the problem was the salary cut which I would have been willing to take and she wasn't.

We need to have an honest discussion about where our life should be headed now.

As for other topics... there are a number, but I will explain another day, maybe tomorrow if time permits.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> Yes there should be a limit to the amount of promises he can break before all her trust in him also breaks.


I do not disagree with you. Once trust is broken it is very difficult to restore and alot of work must be done by both parties. But stewing in long term resentment is not doing her or him or the family any favours.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

aine said:


> I do not disagree with you. Once trust is broken it is very difficult to restore and alot of work must be done by both parties. But stewing in long term resentment is not doing her or him or the family any favours.


I agree but I think she’s done with this and now has only resentment left. She isn’t here to tell us her side or other things that have broken trust. She may not want to move forward but not know how to not either.


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## David60525 (Oct 5, 2021)

davebrubeck1 said:


> Hello everyone, and thank you for being on this forum. What do you think of my situation?
> 
> I am married for seven years with two small children. We are from different countries and moved to the US shortly after getting married. We moved for my job, which was a difficult decision because I also had a job offer in her home country. We decided together that the US offer was better in terms of job security, money and career development. But our ultimate goal was to move to either her or my home country in a few years. It was hard for her since she was the trailing spouse, and I promised that the next move would be “for her”. Looking back I now doubt I really meant that. I think I hoped that we would ultimately decide our future together. Secretly I was also afraid of moving to her home country. But I never had the courage to tell her that.
> 
> ...


NO TOO Far gone, get a flight for you and your kids, exclude wife, go to home country
If yoy stay in USA you will be F'd two days to Sunday. Get you and kids to your country now.
NOW red pill it- look on internet about it.
Family law in USA will kill you. Please man save yourself,


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## davebrubeck1 (Dec 2, 2021)

Ok so I promised to write a bit about topics other than the move. Three main things I can think of.
1) Finances. She is more financially responsible than me and I always liked that about her. One thing she does not like about me is my reliance on my parents. They are relatively well to do and have repeatedly told me that they saved money so that I could have fewer financial worries than they did. They helped a bit finance our home here and offered to do the same for our next move (in the form of a gift so we could reduce our mortgage, to be clear). But my wife does not want to accept money from them because she feels it makes us dependent and diminishes our sense of accomplishment in life. She also says she does not want our kids to know that they may stand to inherit something from us when we die because that would make them complacent. She is also generally more thrifty than me in everyday life. I think we both resent each other a bit for being too stingy/profligate.
2) Helping her. Since our second one was born she has also complained that I don't support her enough. I think that's true. I helped a lot with our first one but have let things slide after our second one was born.
3) My parents. My parents and I are relatively open and we talk every week on the phone. I share my thoughts and problems with them. My wife has very little contact to her family (unless we're visiting). She thinks that I am too reliant on my parents and in fact too willing to please them, at her expense. I think that is also true to some extent, like when we are visiting my parents I sometimes go out of the way to have them enjoy their time with us but then end up organizing activities that my wife actually doesn't like. They have also criticized us a few times on aspects of our parenting and I did not stand up and defend my wife in front of them, instead just letting their comments slide.
Looking back I feel 2) and 3) are definitely where I made mistakes and I need to work on it. On 1) I feel we have justifiable differences in values but should be able to find common ground. Again, the problem is what do I do now that her walls are up so high.


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## davebrubeck1 (Dec 2, 2021)

David60525 said:


> NO TOO Far gone, get a flight for you and your kids, exclude wife, go to home country
> If yoy stay in USA you will be F'd two days to Sunday. Get you and kids to your country now.
> NOW red pill it- look on internet about it.
> Family law in USA will kill you. Please man save yourself,


Certainly not. It would be a crime, too!


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## davebrubeck1 (Dec 2, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Other than this move is there other topics that seems to have this resentment?


See my post above… I appreciate any feedback.


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