# What do you want...what is reasonable to want in a marriage/relationship?



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Those who've seen my postings are probably tired of my attempts to understand/help/live with what I believe is a wife obsessed with money. I emphasize "my" belief. I am open to being corrected, but so far, neither wife nor counselors has said I'm off track. Perceived obsession means I get no time, don't get noticed, what I am interested in can't be done because she's busy counting dollars....

If you've kept up, you're also aware that I am contemplating the D word. I don't want to do it. But at the moment, if my choices were a) Continue with the relationship as it is (IMO nonfunctional) or b) Release myself so I can "find myself" and then move on, I would choose b.

But - BIG but - I think I should figure out if "what I want" is even reasonable! Being relatively introverted (believe it or not), I have few friends, and none I'd discuss this with.

When I think of "what I want", my thoughts are inevitably colored by the present relationship and what I think I'm not getting. I'm hoping that by hearing what others think is reasonable and/or what they want, I'll get ideas to broaden my perspective.

At present, this is my list, but as I said, I fear it's probably more a reflection of my current struggles:

* I want to see evidence that I matter to her
* I want an activity partner. Not just for the stuff I like, but I also want someone who brings things to me that I never tried - I expect we'll do some of what I used to do, some of what she used to do, some stuff neither of us did, and each of us will continue a thing or two we did before and our new partner is not interested in.
* I want some intimacy...intensity variable, frequency hopefully a bit dependable, in the four spheres:
-- Mental
-- Emotional
-- Spiritual
-- Physical
* I want someone who routinely communicates directly without going silent in fear just because we encounter a little bump
* Obviously, lifestyles have to accommodate each other...mine is one that flies under the radar, not flashy, no belief that spending money improves things, but sometimes just because, let's go buy something fun...this is not so much "what I want" so much as acknowledging that personality isn't enough, lifestyles have to work together, too.
* Age-appropriate: at my age, I do not have any interests in having, raising, or completing the raising of children.
* Interested in and at least occasionally practices self-improvement via reading books on the topic, practicing the exercises, etc.

Natch, I'm flexible...but in the past, I think I've caved in, and ended up wondering "how the hell did I get here?"

Would love to hear opinions, your lists, what you think is reasonable, etc.

Many doggie biscuits to those who respond kindly.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I want a partner who enjoys making me happy and who will go out of her way to do so. I want a partner who I enjoy making happy. Having both those be true implies a level of compatibility that is not present in many people.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I just want a partner who will work as hard as I will in making a relationship successful. Seems simple to say but has been impossible to find.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

I don't specifically want anything... Sure I've tried to think of something but nothing readily comes to mind, so I got nothing.

Anyway one thing that struck me about your list (aside from the miserable hell of wanting to share self help books), was that your desire external entertainment and validation. I can't help but wonder if you were more self fulfilled/internally content, maybe you wouldn't desire a greater performance from your wife?

That said if you are considering divorce perhaps you don't want to be with her anymore, so you may as well stop wasting more time and just get on with it.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

When I was going through the depths of pre divorce and then divorce the thought of another relationship was pretty much bottom of the heap. 

But I did end up meeting a wonderful man that is now my life partner. I got all the things that I wanted even though I did not really put much thought into it at the time. TBH I was more concerned with the things I would not put up with. 

So what I found in a man that is pretty much my perfect match:
Love
Like
Incredible sexual chemistry and compatibility
Same values and morals
Excellent parent
Tall and sexy as hell
Open minded
Good communicator
Has a lust for life and adventure
An amazing SOH
Super intelligent
High EQ
Hard working
Good income/assets
Well dressed

For this to be such a great match it seems I also have the qualities he values.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Personal said:


> I don't specifically want anything... Sure I've tried to think of something but nothing readily comes to mind, so I got nothing.
> 
> Anyway one thing that struck me about your list (aside from the miserable hell of wanting to share self help books), was that your desire external entertainment and validation. I can't help but wonder if you were more self fulfilled/internally content, maybe you wouldn't desire a greater performance from your wife?
> 
> That said if you are considering divorce perhaps you don't want to be with her anymore, so you may as well stop wasting more time and just get on with it.


I suppose I could have said something other than "self help books". By that, what I mean is someone who actually embraces that concept that is paraded about by all philosophies, religions, businesses, and people who succeed - "lifetime learning". Aka improving yourself all the time. Which, IMO, cannot be done by personal rumination, one needs ideas from the outside. In my case, just the usual "recommended reading lists" from the companies I worked for were a treasure trove: Steve Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People, dozens of books on how to build and work successfully in thriving teams, etc. To my mind, it is an acknowledgement and effort toward the Socratic goal, stated oppositely by one of his most famous quotes: "The unexamined life is not worth living".

You said that it seems I desire external validation and entertainment. I'm glad you brought that up, that's exactly the sort of thing I want to make sure I don't do.

When I say I want someone to do things with, I'm not suggesting she be the source of entertainment. It's more along the lines of, I'm happy and I can entertain myself, but so much is better when shared with someone else...and if it's the same someone all the time, a beautiful lifetime of memories is created. After all, if you don't actually want to spend significant time with a person, why marry them and complicate both your lives?

I have no need for external validation, but I suppose my preference "to see evidence that I matter to her" could be interpreted that way. This is a partial reaction to my current state, in which she simply doesn't indicate at all that I matter. She takes no efforts to spend time with me, asks and tells me to do a lot of stuff but does not say thank you, and so on. We have spoken about this as much as she can stand and the only item she has said she likes about having me around is money. And when I got married, money wasn't even in my top 10 list, so I can't say that I'm particularly pleased that that's the highest service I provide!

And, I'm led again to wonder, why would someone marry someone if that person didn't matter to them? And, why would you not share feelings you have?

Or was it something else that led you to think I was seeking validation?

In my life, I have built strong relationships with quite a few people, some SOs, some at work, some relationships were bigger than two. In all cases, the strength of such relationships was awesome. Two people getting things done that normally require four. You share so much about how you make decisions, what matters to you that if one person is absent, someone else can say exactly how that person would want this or that thing done...we all strengthen each other without taking anything away from ourselves in the process. That is my definition of "intimacy"...which some say means "into me see"...you expose enough details that your team (of one other person or many) can fill in the blanks in your absence. Naturally, for an at-work team, there's a boundary on what I consider reasonable intimacy...physical seems beyond that boundary!


All responses have sparked ideas, I appreciate them all.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> But I did end up meeting a wonderful man that is now my life partner.
> 
> So what I found in a man that is pretty much my perfect match:
> 
> ...


What is SOH?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

DustyDog said:


> I suppose I could have said something other than "self help books". By that, what I mean is someone who actually embraces that concept that is paraded about by all philosophies, religions, businesses, and people who succeed - "lifetime learning". Aka improving yourself all the time. Which, IMO, cannot be done by personal rumination, one needs ideas from the outside. In my case, just the usual "recommended reading lists" from the companies I worked for were a treasure trove: Steve Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People, dozens of books on how to build and work successfully in thriving teams, etc. To my mind, it is an acknowledgement and effort toward the Socratic goal, stated oppositely by one of his most famous quotes: "The unexamined life is not worth living".
> 
> You said that it seems I desire external validation and entertainment. I'm glad you brought that up, that's exactly the sort of thing I want to make sure I don't do.
> 
> ...


Considering all of your gazing at other people's navels, I'm not surprised that you didn't address the following.



Personal said:


> That said if you are considering divorce perhaps you don't want to be with her anymore, so you may as well stop wasting more time and just get on with it.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Personal said:


> Considering all of your gazing at other people's navels, I'm not surprised that you didn't address the following.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw it as a logical non sequitur, which I usually don't respond to. "Considering divorce" and "don't want to be with her any more" are universes apart. I LOVE to be with her...but she does all she can to make sure we aren't together, any more than the minimal possible. To me, together is not merely being in the same room, but actually interacting...conversing, tossing ideas around, building something in the air between us to learn from, paint in our minds into a glistening, shimmering thing of beauty. And we did for a few years, then it stopped. Her primary comment on that? "That wasn't me, that's who my church taught me to be and was a lie."

Am I considering? Yep. Is it simple? Nope. Do I want to not be with her? Nope. But in order to be with her, she would have to be a part of that decision. I do not have, nor want, the ability to influence her, so I'm kinda thinking this is how it is.

Gazing at navels....usually means daydreaming. Can't say as I do much of that. I study thoughts, until I am fairly certain that I have seen them from a half dozen sides...there's always a new thing to learn, and sometimes it opens the doorway to realizing a way to make it through a problem that's been vexing me for months.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

DustyDog said:


> At present, this is my list, but as I said, I fear it's probably more a reflection of my current struggles:
> 
> * I want to see evidence that I matter to her
> 
> ...


 I feel your list is a good one.. what we all seek in an intimate relationship.. the book "His Needs/ Her Needs".. would cover all of these .... When any of these go by the wayside, or those most important to us .. it creates issues in our relationships.. we don't feel loved, important.. "that we matter".. doing activities with her would be "Recreational companionship" ... These are the 10 emotional needs listed in the book, a chapter to explain each ...



Now the question is.. What would your wife say is Missing ??? Surely she longs for similar things ....maybe you 2 have gotten so far away from each other.. you can't find your way back...

Would you say you think your wife is using *money* to fill some sort of void in her life?.... getting to the roots of why we do the things we do.. does it bring her happiness? or is she on some sort of revolving treadmill wanting it to....expecting it to...but she is still not happy..

I want to share with you something out of a book, taken from The Gifts of Imperfection...

*She says *...


> "After collecting thousands of stories , I'm willing to call this a FACT: *A deep sense of love and belonging is an irreducible need of all women, men and children*. We are biologically, cognitively, physically, and spiritually wired to love , to be loved, and to belong.
> 
> When these needs are not met, we don't function as we were meant to. We break. We fall apart. We NUMB...We ache...We hurt others. We get sick.
> 
> There are certainly other causes of illness, numbing and hurt, but the absence of love and belonging will always lead to suffering.


There is a section about NUMBING...she spend several hundred interviews trying to better understand the consequences of NUMBING & how "taking the edge off" behaviors is related to addiction...this is what she learned...



> *1*. Most of us engage in behaviors (consciously or not) that help us to numb and take the edge of off vulnerability, pain, and discomfort.
> 
> *2*. Addiction can be described as chronically & compulsively numbing and taking the edge off of feelings..
> 
> *3.* We cannot selectively numb emotions.. When we numb the painful emotions, we also numb the positive emotions.


Another fine point she made was >>



> "Recognizing and leaning into the discomfort of vulnerability teaches us how to live with JOY, Gratitude, and Grace... I'm also learning that the uncomfortable and scary learning requires both spirit and RESILIENCE.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Personal said:


> I don't specifically want anything... Sure I've tried to think of something but nothing readily comes to mind, so I got nothing.
> 
> Anyway one thing that struck me about your list (aside from the miserable hell of wanting to share self help books), was that your desire external entertainment and validation. I can't help but wonder if you were more self fulfilled/internally content, maybe you wouldn't desire a greater performance from your wife?
> 
> That said if you are considering divorce perhaps you don't want to be with her anymore, so you may as well stop wasting more time and just get on with it.


 I don't read him like this --like At ALL... I completely see a man who wants, seeks an intimate satisfying relationship like anyone else.. if he happens to have "words of affirmation" nearing the top of his love languages.. there is also nothing wrong with this...

One of the things that rubs me the wrong way on this forum in some posts are... those who are married & don't seem to need ANYTHING... I think to myself.. what in the world is wrong with them.. are they an Island.. they seem Proud about it.. like they are oh so "independent"... I have yet to do a thread on this.. but I intend to.... A love buster is "Independent behaviors"... it can cause intimacy to die....

Those are the ones who should not bother getting married.. Dusty Dog sounds like one who wants to share his life.. what it's really all about.. 

Now what went wrong in his marriage.. I don't know.. not familiar with his story... but he sounds he wants to make it right... let's not be too hard on posters who may be wired a little different.. Nothing at all wrong with some validation.. 

Frankly if my husband never cared about any of that.. I'd be bored with him !!! .. I love giving VALIDATION ...it makes ME feel good too.... when I am thankful.. when he treats me wall.. something in me rises up to speak what a good man he is... my appreciation can't be contained.. 

How have you inspired Intimacy in her DustyDog?? 

When there is a huge disconnect in a marriage.. it often comes down to "RESENTMENT" in some form.. what are the resentments over the years.. is she holding ANYTHING against you? THINK back...have you always tried to make things right.. when you knew you hurt her ?? or tried to find that common ground.. somewhere in the middle where you both can find REAL authentic peace with each other.. even in your differences.. 

I assume it was GOOD at one time.. so what went wrong.. when did things go sour??

If there is very little communication.. very little fighting.. there is something amiss.... these things don't just get better till they are dug up and dealt with.. some people need a Therapist for this.. they can't get this vulnerable with each other..

I offer this thread for a deeper understanding of Vulnerability...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...r-its-pain-its-beauty-how-vulnerable-you.html


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

DustyDog said:


> What is SOH?


Sense of humor. One of the most important attributes in a partner IMHO


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

DustyDog said:


> I saw it as a logical non sequitur, which I usually don't respond to. "Considering divorce" and "don't want to be with her any more" are universes apart.





Personal said:


> That said if you are considering divorce *perhaps* you...


Perhaps you missed the caveat "perhaps"?



DustyDog said:


> I LOVE to be with her...but she does all she can to make sure we aren't together, any more than the minimal possible. To me, together is not merely being in the same room, but actually interacting...conversing, tossing ideas around, building something in the air between us to learn from, paint in our minds into a glistening, shimmering thing of beauty. And we did for a few years, then it stopped.


Perhaps all of that glistening and shimmering became a bit boring after a few years?



DustyDog said:


> Her primary comment on that? "That wasn't me, that's who my church taught me to be and was a lie."


Perhaps she grew to realise she didn't like such nonsense and subsequently thought better of it?



DustyDog said:


> Am I considering? Yep. Is it simple? Nope. Do I want to not be with her? Nope. But in order to be with her, she would have to be a part of that decision.


Perhaps you are a classic doormat?



DustyDog said:


> I do not have, nor want, the ability to influence her, so I'm kinda thinking this is how it is.


Perhaps you should avoid writing self-help books, working in marketing, perception management and or psychological operations.



DustyDog said:


> Gazing at navels....usually means daydreaming.


Perhaps you should know that "navel-gazing" has nothing to do with daydreaming, since it is instead a largely superfluous and somewhat excessive self-indulgent act of contemplation. Of which gazing at other peoples navels, through a plethora of self help books is an extension of the same.



DustyDog said:


> Can't say as I do much of that. I study thoughts, until I am fairly certain that I have seen them from a half dozen sides...there's always a new thing to learn, and sometimes it opens the doorway to realizing a way to make it through a problem that's been vexing me for months.


Perhaps you might find a better way to rationalise you inertia.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> One of the things that rubs me the wrong way on this forum in some posts are... those who are married & don't seem to need ANYTHING... I think to myself.. what in the world is wrong with them.. are they an Island.. they seem Proud about it.. like they are oh so "independent"... I have yet to do a thread on this.. but I intend to.... A love buster is "Independent behaviors"... it can cause intimacy to die....
> 
> Those are the ones who should not bother getting married.. Dusty Dog sounds like one who wants to share his life.. what it's really all about..


Being grateful for what I have, I tend not to dwell on what I want.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Personal can you stand back from what SA wrote and see it does not necessarily relate to your life. You and MrsP have a very loving and connected life together, extraordinary perhaps. 

I read SAs words more as those that are very independent of each other as in do not spend time together, don't have a connection.

My guess is that it is easy for you to say you don't need anything as you and MrsP are one of those rare couples that actually already have everything. I would class you two as interdependent which is a great place to be.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

MrsHolland said:


> Personal can you stand back from what SA wrote and see it does not necessarily relate to your life.


Okay.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Personal said:


> Being grateful for what I have, I tend not to dwell on what I want.


I think people struggle with the semantics.

Why would you be married if you don't need anything?

Easy - because you WANT something.

A WANT is a desire that does not become a NEED. If you need something in order to be happy, then you will inevitably feel a NEED to control it if it starts slipping away. A classic is a man who NEEDS eye-candy and hooks up with a woman who has natural beauty and then parades it with cosmetics and expensive clothing. When her girl-next-door comes out, the cosmetics go away and she allows 20 pounds to show up, the man tries to control her back into her old ways. His happiness/self-identity/WE/ became dependent upon her appearance.

Wanting to be with someone...wanting to do things together...wanting to build a life...are not the same as NEEDING those things. Want is considered a stable attachment (See Wikipedia article on adult attachment), need is considered unstable - because if the object of your attachment changes (and they always do), then your happiness is impaired.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> Sense of humor. One of the most important attributes in a partner IMHO


OK, got it...and I agree.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I want/need a man who inspires my respect and devotion.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Thank you SA, for a thought-provoking post! Wonderful!



SimplyAmorous said:


> the book "His Needs/ Her Needs".. would cover all of these ....
> 
> 
> 
> Now the question is.. What would your wife say is Missing ???


She has said she wants "unconditional love", which she claims can not be given by humans, therefore she has dogs. Not quite the same as "affection", IMO.

My attempts to show affection have been rebuffed as "shallow". She has a perception that physical touch of any kind must mean a sexual advance...ditto any compliments on how she cut her hair recently, how nicely that shirt fits, how energetic and alive she looks...OK, so remove any concept of complimenting her in any physical way off the list. I praise her for things that I know matter to her "Wow, you have really improved the company you're working with"...I can see her eyes light up.

Conversation has been an interesting one...she talks, but there's no "her" in it...none of what she says tells you what's on her mind. In therapy once, our MC asked her "what does it feel to you to express your thoughts" and the reply was instant "fear"..and tears. MC told me in private later that she's never seen this and it probably means she feels she is worth nothing and it's been there a long time.

I give her #3, never had a problem with that...but she seems to receive words and place them in buckets, so when she later brings up something I said, it's been modified to fit a bucket and lost the original meaning. I have attempted to clarify, change the way I speak, etc, but it still happens. Because she is, currently, incapable of expressing her opinions and feelings, she struggles with honesty - and says so.

#4 has been the one thing I could clearly see she needed and I've provided it, but her fear-based thinking says to her "it's not possible to have enough money", so it's unresolved for her.

#5...is this primarily for supporting offspring? We have none. My family of origin is intact, we get along, hers is splintered every which way. In the beginning, she seemed happy to be joining a family that was functional, but due to geographic separation, we don't spend much time with them.

On the green side:
1 - Would be nice
2 - I have no need for this. I do it just fine by myself. She shows no interest, and this has never been an issue.
3 - I don't wish to be admired, I just want to know that I make a difference.
4 - Yep, want that
5 - Sort of. Just want someone who takes care of herself, which she does just fine and so do I. No concern about method of attire, etc.




SimplyAmorous said:


> Would you say you think your wife is using *money* to fill some sort of void in her life?.... getting to the roots of why we do the things we do.. does it bring her happiness? or is she on some sort of revolving treadmill wanting it to....expecting it to...but she is still not happy..


Choice #3. Although she was raised in an upper middle class family, somehow she has had the idea, since childhood, that money is scarce, needed, and you can never have enough. When we first got together, I was in a part of my life where I needed to be frugal to recover from splitting from my ex (no debt, but I like making clean breaks, so I gave her everything). My frugality and hers were a good match. But I have always viewed frugal as a way to achieve a point in life where you no longer have to worry about money. As most financial advisors point out "Money is only an issue if you don't have enough". Most folks earn more each year and spend less, as they realize buying stuff does not buy happiness. So, most folks finally hit that point and quit worrying. I did so in my late 40s, I don't think she will ever.



SimplyAmorous said:


> I want to share with you something out of a book, taken from The Gifts of Imperfection...
> 
> *She says *...
> 
> ...


I would have said it differently, but I knew it already. I spent a great deal of time working on teams with neurologists. They claim that you can look at the physical structure of a mammal's brain and identify whether it belongs to a solo hunter/predator (few of which exist, the most common are the cat family), or a pack animal. There are no other types. Based on the physical anatomy of the human brain, we are strongly wired to be pack animals, complete with the need to belong and to be appreciated/loved. If you separate a wolf from his/her pack, and he/she doesn't find another, the wolf may die, without any form of physical attack.



SimplyAmorous said:


> There is a section about NUMBING...she spend several hundred interviews trying to better understand the consequences of NUMBING & how "taking the edge off" behaviors is related to addiction...this is what she learned...


Totally understandable. It is possible that my wife's addiction to money is her way of numbing to basically everything. For some reason, exposing her opinion on every matter scares her like crazy, whether to me, MC, or anybody. Over the years, our friends have mentioned to me that she seems closed off and fearful. When I think of our early years, when I *thought* she was being open - she wasn't. She spoke a lot of classes she attended, and activities in her youth - but the speaking style was totally third-person, as if she was the observer/narrator - and contained not one shred of "how it felt" to her or whether she approved or disapproved of the narrative she'd given. But money? Huge emotions.

And of course, I have my numbing addictions - I do projects, "get stuff done". Keeps me from facing what I don't want to face, including my social anxiety.



SimplyAmorous said:


> Another fine point she made was >>
> 
> 
> 
> > "Recognizing and leaning into the discomfort of vulnerability teaches us how to live with JOY, Gratitude, and Grace... I'm also learning that the uncomfortable and scary learning requires both spirit and RESILIENCE.


I have a strong spirit and am "the most resilient and flexible person I've ever met" (per several managers I've had)...I *think* I am willing to be vulnerable, although I certainly don't expose everything to someone I just met...but it's worth considering that I could do better.

Much of your posting has now gone into my daily workbook for this stuff. Thanks!


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