# Too many "me" generationers for successful marriage



## lapdog

Male, married 26 years, 2 college age kids, success reason:

Because both of us took the words "till death do us part" seriously. We committed to the institution of marriage, and the two of us are just in it for the ride. Do we always love each other, yes. Do we always like each other, no. 
Take each other for granted, yes. We both take for granted the knowledge that the other is committed, and whatever our arguments, there will be the two of us when it is ironed out.
So many of today's relationships die because the parties only know about "me". They have been raised in the "me" generation, they have been forever (mostly falsely) praised by their parents so as to not hurt their self esteem. Momma and daddy have never let them struggle through something, and blatantly fail, so they have no skills to put together an ensuing plan to succeed. They have been given everything and told that they can have everything the want in life.....BS. 
They are self centered and egotistical immature people who do not understand that their partner is not there to make them happy and constantly pump up their fragile ego.


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## Unique Username

I would agree with every thing you say except the "ME" deade was the 1970's and was actually ours (born in late 60s - children of the 70s - teens of the 80s)

What you are referring to are the ENTITLED generation - Gen-Xers and all born thereafter lol 

lovingly referred to as the ME ME ME generation by Ben Stein

cool article about exactly what you are saying

Every Every Every Generation Has Been the Me Me Me Generation - Elspeth Reeve - The Atlantic Wire

(P.S. I think frankly that MOST people are selfish and self-centered regardless of when they were born and raised.....but I completely know what you are talking about)


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## Faithful Wife

There are many people of ALL generations who are happily married.

I'm not sure why we need to just cast a general stone in the direction of any generation? What is the point of it? :scratchhead:

Divorce is on the rise but that is a very complicated issue and certainly isn't any one group of people's fault.


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## Faithful Wife

Also...having been divorced once and it being one of the most painful experiences of my life, I don't really like it when anyone just assumes they know that divorces occur due to me or my ex-h or both of us being "self centered and egotistical immature people who do not understand that their partner is not there to make them happy and constantly pump up their fragile ego."

Harumph.


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## FrenchFry

lapdog said:


> Male, married 26 years, 2 college age kids, success reason:
> 
> Because both of us took the words "till death do us part" seriously. We committed to the institution of marriage, and the two of us are just in it for the ride. Do we always love each other, yes. Do we always like each other, no.
> Take each other for granted, yes. We both take for granted the knowledge that the other is committed, and whatever our arguments, there will be the two of us when it is ironed out.
> So many of today's relationships die because the parties only know about "me". They have been raised in the "me" generation, they have been* forever (mostly falsely) praised by their parents so as to not hurt their self esteem. Momma and daddy have never let them struggle through something, and blatantly fail, so they have no skills to put together an ensuing plan to succeed. *They have been given everything and told that they can have everything the want in life.....BS.
> They are self centered and egotistical immature people who do not understand that their partner is not there to make them happy and constantly pump up their fragile ego.


If we are throwing generational stones though...

Who were the parents of the parents who raised their kids as such, hmmm? Whic adults should we blame for the kids? Lets put a year on when everything went wrong. I blame Hoover.

(The article is hilarious, people always complain about generational gaps. Get off my lawn with your hip hop music.)


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## Unique Username

Every Generation blames mommy or daddy or both

generalizing generationist generalizations

by the way...where can I get those Generational Stones...I'm thinking it may be even better than Pet Rocks


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## Unique Username

Heck let's blame the King of England as it is HIS regime that brought us to America anyway!!!

Hoover was a good choice....lol.....but if we are attaching blame to Presidents then I choose FDR since he came up with all this aid and organizations that are all acronyms....and he hunted endangered species...oh wait that was his relative Teddy


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## meson

I've seen too many marriages with the OP philosophy who are so unhappy in their marriages that they spread their unhappiness to their kids and everyone they know. To me its parallel to Ralph Waldo Emerson's quote but I would say foolish commitment is the hob goblin of little minds instead. 

I, like many have had a long marriage and mostly a good one and we try to work through our issues. And we have had significant issues. The part about your philosophy that I like is addressing the issues. However it is foolish to think all issues can be resolved to both parties satisfaction for everyone.

Things are a lot more grey and relative for many people especially those that did not choose a good partner. Attributing irreconcilable differences to selfishness and a lack of commitment is just putting your head in the sand to the realities of human nature.


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## bbird1

A good marriage is about waiting for the right person. The person you marry must share your core values. You need to look for someone who in their core matches you. To do this you must first know who you are and what you believe. 

You also need the patience to search for what you desire and look past the outside. I have seen friends marry because she was beautiful but inside she was a total beach. As her looks faded so did the relationship. I have friends who have good marriages because they waited, looked past exterior beauty and found a compatible mate.

The "me" generation is a term given to the late 60s babies because they had more creature comforts growing up. Todays kids have even more comforts. Does that mean they can't carry a meaningful relationship? I hope not.

My children were raised with god, with rules, with character and with responsibility. They know the value of hard work because my wife and I demonstrated that to them. They have self respect, respect for others and love of god and country. I think it's about the example set by the parents not allowing them to be raised without guidance and morals.

So you want a great next generation then step up and raise your children. Teach them the values they will need to carry a relationship that you will be proud of by making kids with values you and they can be proud of.

It starts with you, with example step by you. Teach them god, respect and love by demonstration.


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## nogutsnoglory

Faithful Wife said:


> Also...having been divorced once and it being one of the most painful experiences of my life, I don't really like it when anyone just assumes they know that divorces occur due to me or my ex-h or both of us being "self centered and egotistical immature people who do not understand that their partner is not there to make them happy and constantly pump up their fragile ego."
> 
> Harumph.


I think he is referring to marriage vows meaning until death do us part and that being an honest decision made. You being divorced obviously felt at some point the wrongs in the marriage outweighed the vows taken. I am not judging your decision, I am just stating that for some marriage actually is supposed to mean until death do us part.
you hear it all the time on TAM that "life is too short" , "no kids, move on, its not worth it" 
well it is not worth it if "you" are more important that the "union" created when the vows were taken.
again, I firmly believe the religious part of marriage to be a joke and that vows show intent and intent only. That we are responsible for ourselves and cannot depend on anyone to make us happy nor can we let others stomp all over the marriage and just live with it. Past generations treated the vows differently though as a percentage, right or wrong.

I do not necessarily agree with the poster that marriages fail due to people not working through the difficulty, I do believe to an extent that what the poster is saying is true to a degree due to the simple fact that people are so ready to cheat and lie in todays world and it is today so much easier to have affairs that it is simply more of a norm than ever before and in this context is generational in nature.


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## AlmostYoung

nogutsnoglory said:


> you hear it all the time on TAM that "life is too short" , "no kids, move on, its not worth it"


Yes, you most certainly do.

What they don't tell you is that statistics show 2nd marriages are more likely to fail (and in a shorter amount of time) than first marriages. 3rd marriages even more so!

It would be funny if it wasn't so painful.

So, learn to work things out, or learn to D, it would seem.


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## mablenc

The only reason divorce is more common now is because people aren't willing to put up with so much crap as they did before because of society. Women now can live independently without having to worry about the views on divorced women. And men don't have to hid the fact that they married a cheating tramp and can show her the door and lock it too.


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## AlmostYoung

mablenc said:


> The only reason divorce is more common now is because people aren't willing to put up with so much crap as they did before because of society. Women now can live independently without having to worry about the views on divorced women. And men don't have to hid the fact that they married a cheating tramp and can show her the door and lock it too.


Yet everyone says D is one of the most painful things they ever went through. Maybe working things out like they did in the old days isn't that bad after all. 

You say they "put up with crap", back then. Hmmm, maybe some did. 

Still, I don't believe for a second that people getting D today are any "happier" (god I love that term!) than their grandparents who stuck it out when things got tough.


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## mablenc

AlmostYoung said:


> Yet everyone says D is one of the most painful things they ever went through. Maybe working things out like they did in the old days isn't that bad after all.
> 
> You say they "put up with crap", back then. Hmmm, maybe some did.
> 
> Still, I don't believe for a second that people getting D today are any "happier" (god I love that term!) than their grandparents who stuck it out when things got tough.


Things were not worked on, they were swept under the rug, and a blind eye was turned. Even marriage counseling is a newer and more popular term. Imagine having to hush up about a cheating or abusive spouse? Not even websites like this one. 

I do belive people can be happy after divorce, it may be painful but at least not a lifetime of pain and suffering in silence.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

AlmostYoung said:


> Still, I don't believe for a second that people getting D today are any "happier" (god I love that term!) than their grandparents who stuck it out when things got tough.


I sure believe it! My grandparents were married until the day my grandmother died (but one of them was an alcoholic).

One set of uncle/aunt were married until the day my uncle died (but one of them had mental problems and spent money faster than they made it).

Another uncle/aunt were married until my uncle died (but, again, one was an alcoholic).

Why is it so inconceivable that I am "happier" (god I love that term, too!!!) than they were? I am not yoked to an alcoholic. I am no longer yoked to a selfish, self-centered spendthrift. I work hard (and smart); I save my money (my ex NEVER did). I am finally feeling more financially secure, am around positive people (my ex considers everyone except himself an a-hole), and have a peaceful existence without having to walk on eggshells (since I no longer have to worry about 'what' will set off ex's explosive temper).

If my relatives believed that they were getting a 'better' place in Heaven because they stayed together in a hellish marriage, so be it! Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. If *that* is what it takes to get to Heaven, then I'm sure I'll be enjoying Hades with my friends and fellow life-enjoyers who realize that this life may, in fact, be all there is. Why waste it?


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## mablenc

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> I sure believe it! My grandparents were married until the day my grandmother died (but one of them was an alcoholic).
> 
> One set of uncle/aunt were married until the day my uncle died (but one of them had mental problems and spent money faster than they made it).
> 
> Another uncle/aunt were married until my uncle died (but, again, one was an alcoholic).
> 
> Why is it so inconceivable that I am "happier" (god I love that term, too!!!) than they were? I am not yoked to an alcoholic. I am no longer yoked to a selfish, self-centered spendthrift. I work hard (and smart); I save my money (my ex NEVER did). I am finally feeling more financially secure, am around positive people (my ex considers everyone except himself an a-hole), and have a peaceful existence without having to walk on eggshells (since I no longer have to worry about 'what' will set off ex's explosive temper).
> 
> If my relatives believed that they were getting a 'better' place in Heaven because they stayed together in a hellish marriage, so be it! Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. If *that* is what it takes to get to Heaven, then I'm sure I'll be enjoying Hades with my friends and fellow life-enjoyers who realize that this life may, in fact, be all there is. Why waste it?



I agree with you, not to mention that because you can divorce people now actually seek help for their drinking, addiction, and mental health problems when they realize its breaking their marriage. Before people could be stuck with a spouse that didn't want to change and that's where the " he/she is never gonna change" mentality comes from.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy

mablenc said:


> I agree with you, not to mention that because you can divorce people now actually seek help for their drinking, addiction, and mental health problems when they realize its breaking their marriage. Before people could be stuck with a spouse that didn't want to change and that's where the " he/she is never gonna change" mentality comes from.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree: This. How many times have you read on TAM about this very situation? Spouse has issues they don't feel a need to deal with until divorce papers get filed, then they suddenly start shaping up.


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## lapdog

Perhaps I chose the wrong words when I used "me generation".
It was not to point to one particular generation, but rather to the more and more prevalent feeling that everything and everyone must be about "me", or I'll just walk out. 

There was no ill meant toward those who divorce, sometimes you are not even given any options for change. And I know the pain, having had my first wife, without even a prior hint of trouble, announce one night that she just did not love me any more, and was moving her stuff out the next day. No chance for even trying to solve whatever problems she perceived in her mind. 

Yes, after 25 plus years, we still have some pretty heavy arguments, and sometimes one of us will say something that gives the other cause for a "what the hell is that about" moment, but there has never been the fear that anything will destroy our marriage, except for the mutually held idea that cheating would be a definite game ender for both of us. 

As for the poster who said that people no longer have to take crap....there is always crap that must be dealt with. I'm not talking about physical abuse or tolerating cheating, just trivial crap that gets blown way out of proportion; like not making a big deal about a new outfit, or not buying a card for some occasion, or looking at an attractive stranger.


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## MysticTeenager

bbird1 said:


> A good marriage is about waiting for the right person. The person you marry must share your core values. You need to look for someone who in their core matches you. To do this you must first know who you are and what you believe.
> 
> You also need the patience to search for what you desire and look past the outside. I have seen friends marry because she was beautiful but inside she was a total beach. As her looks faded so did the relationship. I have friends who have good marriages because they waited, looked past exterior beauty and found a compatible mate.


:iagree: ridiculously well said. hats off to you.


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## SimplyAmorous

bbird1 said:


> *A good marriage is about waiting for the right person. The person you marry must share your core values. You need to look for someone who in their core matches you. To do this you must first know who you are and what you believe. *
> 
> You also need the patience to search for what you desire and look past the outside. I have seen friends marry because she was beautiful but inside she was a total beach. As her looks faded so did the relationship. I have friends who have good marriages because they waited, looked past exterior beauty and found a compatible mate.
> 
> The "me" generation is a term given to the late 60s babies because they had more creature comforts growing up. Todays kids have even more comforts. Does that mean they can't carry a meaningful relationship? I hope not.
> 
> *My children were raised with god, with rules, with character and with responsibility. They know the value of hard work because my wife and I demonstrated that to them. They have self respect, respect for others and love of god and country. I think it's about the example set by the parents not allowing them to be raised without guidance and morals.
> *
> *So you want a great next generation then step up and raise your children. Teach them the values they will need to carry a relationship that you will be proud of by making kids with values you and they can be proud of.
> 
> It starts with you, with example step by you. Teach them god, respect and love by demonstration*.


Love your post BBird1 ..as a couple who has been together since our teens...your words is pretty much how we have lived ...how we view life....love....Responsibility... the raising of children...and nothing is more important at the end of the day....than one's character...










We are not religious people so much...but we are BIG on being careful to always look at our own hand /motivations when we hurt someone else and going to make that right..(sometimes that is not so pretty)....these things MUST be modeled in the home...not go blaming others for things we might have brought upon ourselves...or feeling we are "entitled" .....

We are not overly strict parents .....but very "approachable" with our kids...we talk about it all...careful to explain every possible scenario/ consequence that can arise from various choices in one's life...asking how they would FEEL if this happened to them... sort of thing.... a foundation like this will help in an upcoming marriage... communication skills are HUGE, some humility, forgiveness, when called for. 

We allow our children to argue a point...when we listen to them, they listen to us...we want them to search themselves to understand their own positions....to be a contributor to the Good in this world, ..faithful to their word, cautious with their steps...this will help them *stand* when difficult circumstances come upon them.


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## AlmostYoung

Some may have stayed in a crappy M too long it's true. But today we're just as quick to bolt as soon as the going gets a little rough. 

You don't have to read many posts here to see that's the case.

Marriage is a commitment to your god (if you have one) and the world that you'll stick with your partner through thick and thin, better or worse, and all that crap. Heck it's even in the vows!

Or until one or the other "isn't happy". How convenient.

This is what I find most frustrating about TAM, and why I've found little helpful advice here. It's not about making it work for both partners, it's more about giving up, moving on and "trying" again. What a sad joke.


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## lapdog

AlmostYoung said:


> Some may have stayed in a crappy M too long it's true. But today we're just as quick to bolt as soon as the going gets a little rough.
> 
> You don't have to read many posts here to see that's the case.
> 
> Marriage is a commitment to your god (if you have one) and the world that you'll stick with your partner through thick and thin, better or worse, and all that crap. Heck it's even in the vows!
> 
> Or until one or the other "isn't happy". How convenient.
> 
> This is what I find most frustrating about TAM, and why I've found little helpful advice here. It's not about making it work for both partners, it's more about giving up, moving on and "trying" again. What a sad joke.


A perfect summary of the gist of my original post and kind of what I see so much of here also. 
Please help me, I want a divorce because:
I did not get a big enough present
My husband/wife looked at the attractive person we passed
No rave reviews on new dress/suit
Trivial, shallow, self centered BS.


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## betulanana

You make it sound like marriage was about self-sacrifice... well... it's not to my mind... or it should not be.

If the man sacrifices and the woman sacrifices and both figure they would be better off without that marriage... what is the point of that marriage then again? Making both parties unhappy? 

Yes... and sometimes not getting presents or your spouse looking at strangers all the time is a sign for some deeper problems by which the marriage is plagued. Sometimes it is - sometimes it is not.

As for me-generationers. I think it is wrong to expect that your life should be free from hardship. It is not the way the world works... and part of being an responsible adult is to not run away from it... face it... put your smile on your face each day and do your duty... but if a persons life is only hardship... no fun only hardship and sacrifice that person must ask himself or herself if he or she has been searching for hardship (may be without knowing it).

While it is unrealistic to expect your partner to be perfect. Issues: everybody has them and they do not make you a person less worthy of ones partners love... but if both partners make the other unhappy... why safe the marriage?

There is nothing noble about doing your duty and stumbling on if it only makes everybody involved unhappy.

By the way: I do not want a divorce. I am just stating my opinion about marriage in general.


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## bewilderness

LOL! All of "them"? Everyone? Generalize much? 

I think the secret of your longevity lies with the fact that your wife must be a saint...because many women would find it difficult to listen to a man spout this kind of self-aggrandizing nonsense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous

AlmostYoung said:


> Some may have stayed in a crappy M too long it's true. But today we're just as quick to bolt as soon as the going gets a little rough.
> 
> You don't have to read many posts here to see that's the case.
> 
> Marriage is a commitment to your god (if you have one) and the world that you'll stick with your partner through thick and thin, better or worse, and all that crap. Heck it's even in the vows!


 This depends.... I don't feel anyone should remain in a marriage, for instance, if they need depression drugs to cope, any form of abuse, sexlessness..... if one partner presents themselves as stubborn as a mule, refuses to get help, at every turn is cold, callous, refuses sex, affection, connection... gives the silent treatment...

These are the killers right here >>



> 1.Criticism- the act of passing judgment as to the merits of anything, faultfinding.
> No Criticism Please!
> 
> 2. Contempt- the feeling with which a person regards anything considered mean, vile, or worthless; disdain; scorn. The state of being despised; dishonor; disgrace.
> The Danger of Contempt
> 
> 3. Defensiveness- Defensiveness: The Poison Pill to Relationships
> 
> 4. Stonewalling - or 'the silent treatment' Stonewalling in Abuse


My Mom and Dad's marriage was a trainwreck, best thing they ever did was divorce and I say this as being a casualty. My father went on much happiness with my step Mother. 

It will always take 2 - opening up the lines of communication, willing to listen, humbly admit where they have failed...with a heart willing to climb that mountain together to recapture what was lost between them...

One can offer so much time ... do the "LOVE DARE"... to soften their heart and bring them back to the marriage... but we have to have some boundaries on what we will accept to..... or it will become a Co-dependent miserable existence...Vows were never meant to be reduced to something like that... as they clearly speak about loving each other, "to have and to hold".... and to cherish..


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## bbird1

SimplyAmorous said:


> *Love your post BBird1 *
> 
> We allow our children to argue a point...when we listen to them, they listen to us...we want them to search themselves to understand their own positions....to be a contributor to the Good in this world, ..faithful to their word, cautious with their steps...this will help them *stand* when difficult circumstances come upon them.


Thank you it's nice to know there are other parents much like us. As for god i think we all to some extent know we are not some cosmic mistake though exactly what we believe is yet shrouded. Either way it sounds like you have strong morals and character that guide your hands from day to day. I am sure you've passed these morals on to your children.



SimplyAmorous said:


> *We allow our children to argue a point...*when we listen to them, they listen to us...we want them to search themselves to understand their own positions....to be a contributor to the Good in this world, ..faithful to their word, cautious with their steps...this will help them *stand* when difficult circumstances come upon them.


I don't count this as arguing. If my children are civil and rational then they are debating or expressing an opposing view point. Sometimes my wife and I have conceded and others we have not. As a result of open dialog we are raising kids who will self advocate in a responsible and polite manner. They I hope will make the right choices even when those choices are not the easy choices.

Hats off to other good parents keep the good fight.


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## in my tree

lapdog said:


> A perfect summary of the gist of my original post and kind of what I see so much of here also.
> Please help me, I want a divorce because:
> I did not get a big enough present
> My husband/wife looked at the attractive person we passed
> No rave reviews on new dress/suit
> Trivial, shallow, self centered BS.


Maybe I'm reading different posts than you are but I haven't seen a lot of that here. Yes, I have seen posts saying that a spouse is ogling other people and the person here feels betrayed and disrespected. Usually the advice is to talk to the spouse and let them know how s/he is feeling. If it's a continual matter where the offending spouse does not take the hurt spouse's feelings into consideration, most people here do advise them to get into counseling or get out. Personally, I don't think that this is a trivial matter. It's more about the blatant disrespect than the looking at an attractive stranger.

People here have already suggested that it's not a generational thing and I agree. We have seen our elders put up with things that people should not have to endure like addictions, abuse, cheating, etc. because of the stigma of being a divorced person in days past. It was real and it was unfair, imo.

I'm not saying that there aren't some people who take marriage lightly. Of course there are but I do believe that they are in the minority. For every Brittany Spear or Zsa Zsa Gabor there are thousands of people who take the "til death do us part" seriously and give it their all before giving up. Divorce is too painful as we see here everyday on this board.


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## norajane

AlmostYoung said:


> Some may have stayed in a crappy M too long it's true. But today we're just as quick to bolt as soon as the going gets a little rough.
> 
> You don't have to read many posts here to see that's the case.
> 
> Marriage is a commitment to your god (if you have one) and the world that you'll stick with your partner through thick and thin, better or worse, and all that crap. Heck it's even in the vows!
> 
> Or until one or the other "isn't happy". How convenient.
> 
> This is what I find most frustrating about TAM, and why I've found little helpful advice here. It's not about making it work for both partners, it's more about giving up, moving on and "trying" again. What a sad joke.


One person in a marriage cannot fix the marriage by themselves. It requires two people to repair and strengthen a marriage.

I don't see any reason why the "unhappy" spouse should stay in a miserable marriage if their spouse isn't committed to repairing and strengthening the marriage so both can be happier.


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## CharlieParker

norajane said:


> One person in a marriage cannot fix the marriage by themselves. It requires two people to repair and strengthen a marriage.
> 
> I don't see any reason why the "unhappy" spouse should stay in a miserable marriage if their spouse isn't committed to repairing and strengthening the marriage so both can be happier.


Both parties have to want to stay married. It's really not hard, err, well, until it is. And it can be, and that's ok. But if one spouse is unwilling to even try, see ya, it ain't gonna work.


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## bbird1

CharlieParker said:


> Both parties have to want to stay married. It's really not hard, err, well, until it is. And it can be, and that's ok. But if one spouse is unwilling to even try, see ya, it ain't gonna work.


This is why CHOOSING a spouse with core values that resemble yours is so vital important. This is why knowing what you want and desire from life and marriage is so important and why knowing yourself is so important as well.


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## Married but Happy

bbird1 said:


> This is why CHOOSING a spouse with core values that resemble yours is so vital important. This is why knowing what you want and desire from life and marriage is so important and why knowing yourself is so important as well.


This will provide a good start and a good basis for marriage. And it is an indicator of future compatibility, but does NOT guarantee it. People change, and not always for the better, they grow apart sometimes in incompatible ways, and other times boredom sets in unless guarded against.

So, your criteria is necessary IMO, but may not be sufficient for the long haul.


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## bbird1

Married but Happy said:


> This will provide a good start and a good basis for marriage. And it is an indicator of future compatibility, but does NOT guarantee it. People change, and not always for the better, they grow apart sometimes in incompatible ways, and other times boredom sets in unless guarded against.
> 
> So, your criteria is necessary IMO, but may not be sufficient for the long haul.


100% agreed. Nothing is ever 100% certain and nothing works 100% of the time. I just see so many Ds and ask did they really take the time to know one another or was it purely chemical and nothing mentally. You need more than the short term chemistry to make a marriage work. Sooner or later the chemical attractions fades and you are left with a stranger if you are not compatible on more areas of life. 

But 100% true people can and do change as they grow up or grow old. Which ever way you view it. Life can also change people and big life issues can take a toll as well. But with a solid base hopefully you would lean heavy on the one person you should share everything with.


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## meson

bbird1 said:


> 100% agreed. Nothing is ever 100% certain and nothing works 100% of the time. I just see so many Ds and ask did they really take the time to know one another or was it purely chemical and nothing mentally. You need more than the short term chemistry to make a marriage work. Sooner or later the chemical attractions fades and you are left with a stranger if you are not compatible on more areas of life.
> 
> But 100% true people can and do change as they grow up or grow old. Which ever way you view it. Life can also change people and big life issues can take a toll as well. But with a solid base hopefully you would lean heavy on the one person you should share everything with.


:iagree:

So true! Choosing a spouse that you know is really compatible is one of the most important things. I was engaged to a woman who demonstrated a lack of commitment towards a variety of things. I should have known that that could equally apply to me. She was on her own for awhile had an EA and broke off our engagement. I was lucky because we probably would have ended up divorced anyway as she did a few years later with the OM. Even of she hadn't cheated our method of resolving conflicts was lacking and we would have had more issues build up to cause long term resentments.

I took extreme care to choose someone who was a much better fit emotionally, idealistically and practically than I chose the first time. One of the key filters was to find someone whose strategy at resolving conflicts was compatible with mine. Being able to resolve conflicts while working for the same general goals is what helped my marriage through difficult times. 

It's not enough to have a notion of commitment. One needs to have compatible ways to ensure the commitment nurtures each spouse and helps them evolve together.


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## betulanana

Don't you think that approach is a little bit to "rational choice" when it comes to love + marriage?
Never "fell for" somebody even though you realise he was just the opposit of you but you could not help it?


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## meson

betulanana said:


> Don't you think that approach is a little bit to "rational choice" when it comes to love + marriage?
> Never "fell for" somebody even though you realise he was just the opposit of you but you could not help it?


Perhaps for some it's a bit too rational. But it is something to strive for. Being rational is this way is being true to yourself despite the love buzz. One needs to realize that the fog obscures reality and may lead you down the wrong path. 

And yes, I have fallen for someone not my type and it felt sooo good. Reason won out over the love buzz thankfully. Being in touch with what I really want out of life and knowing how to achieve it helped me make the right decisions to keep my marriage stable.


----------



## bunny23

Hmmmm

In past generations women were less empowered economically.

Divorce and marriage rates are probably not the best indicator of happiness.


----------



## Starstarfish

Also - how many "me" generation folks here on TAM are the ones who immediately suggest divorce the moment there's any hint of a problem? That you "only live once" and that "you are too young for that." There are different expectations from or for spouses these days, and I'd say thoughts about sex have vastly changed. 

Culture as a whole has changed, trying to say its just one group out of the whole spectrum is kind of off.


----------



## Keenwa

Till death us do part seems like an insane thing to vow to anyone. But I suppose it depends on what your values are with regards to life. Do you value committment over learning, journey, development etc. I agree that many people maybe come and go from marriage and/or committment too quickly, but I don't believe that one should sacrifice one's happiness, integrity, journey in life simply because one made a committment however many years ago to someone who at the time was the right person to be with. 

How can we know where we will be and how we will develop in 15, 20, 30 years? Can we promise that we will be the same person? Can we promise we will not change? Can we promise that we are the full embodiment of ourselves at the age we got married? Doesn't make sense to me one bit. We are all on a journey and carry our baggage with us. 

I am not sure I see the big tragedy in breaking the contract of marriage. If the only reason to stay is because we have committed, that is not reason enough for me. Though we may go through rough patches and that is true of any relationship we have in life, we only learn by working it through and communicating, but sometimes in order to move forward we need to let go, and sometimes we need to work it through. Neither solution is more valuable than the other.


----------



## AlmostYoung

"I am not sure I see the big tragedy in breaking the contract of marriage."

^^^ LOL

Well then, you have 3 options.

1. Don't get married.

2. Change your vows to something you _can_ agree with.

3. Profess the standard vows before your god and families, file for D, and admit your integrity blows.


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: Re: Too many "me" generationers for successful marriage*



Keenwa said:


> Till death us do part seems like an insane thing to vow to anyone. But I suppose it depends on what your values are with regards to life. Do you value committment over learning, journey, development etc. I agree that many people maybe come and go from marriage and/or committment too quickly, but I don't believe that one should sacrifice one's happiness, integrity, journey in life simply because one made a committment however many years ago to someone who at the time was the right person to be with.
> 
> How can we know where we will be and how we will develop in 15, 20, 30 years? Can we promise that we will be the same person? Can we promise we will not change? Can we promise that we are the full embodiment of ourselves at the age we got married? Doesn't make sense to me one bit. We are all on a journey


I assume you believe the journey is an individual activity and mutuality exclusive of your partner's? I don't find it to be that way.


----------



## treyvion

mablenc said:


> The only reason divorce is more common now is because people aren't willing to put up with so much crap as they did before because of society. Women now can live independently without having to worry about the views on divorced women. And men don't have to hid the fact that they married a cheating tramp and can show her the door and lock it too.


Imagine the stigma behind this in the old days! Just think about the stigma of it today, this scenario leaves guys completely crushed.


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## AliceA

I think too many people go into marriage without due thought and consideration because they know they can bail as soon as the shine wears off. Work on it? Why, when there's surely something better out there. It's not a vow, it's a parking permit. I want to park in that space for a while and if I'm not happy, I'll just drive off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## johnAdams

We live in a disposable society. If something goes wrong throw it away. There is not longer a negative stigma that goes along with divorce. Instead of trying to fix it, throw it away. Women are no longer economically dependent upon men, so they are less inclined to stay in bad relationships (that may be good). Morals are lower than past generations. There are many things contributing to less commitment. Companies were committed to their employees at one time, you no longer see that happen. My parents, uncles and aunts, etc all stayed married. Both my children had broken relationships. Most of my nephews and nieces have been divorced. I took my marriage vows very seriously. I really thought, this is for life. Divorce was not an option. I do not think that mindset is common anymore.


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## Pepper123

I am from Gen X... I am also the youngest of my family, and had a crappy upbringing in a rather toxic household filled with years of animosity. I longed for a happy family. I found, at age 20, someone else who said he also wanted the white picket fence. He said all of the right things. We married ridiculously young- I was barely 21. Five years later we had a child (our only). 

I put up with 11 years of abuse before I left, and I did so after he refused to get counseling. I guess I am somewhat bothered by being lumped into this formula, as I tried, and wanted to make things work. But by the time I walked I was so emotionally detached there was nothing left to save. 

I'm happier now alone, still struggling with bouts of PTSD and major trust issues. I am hoping that now that I am older, wiser, and more in tune to things that really matter... that some day I can find peace and happiness faith someone. 

When I read some of these stories about men that would do anything to bring their wife back it makes me so sad... some people really have no idea. If nothing else my life has taught me how unimportant so many things are -- the big house, the super hot spouse, and even that picket fence...


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## jld

You're right, Pepper; people get caught up in materialism, only to find out that it is what is inside that counts.

Thanks for your post.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Unique Username said:


> Heck let's blame the King of England as it is HIS regime that brought us to America anyway!!!


I think you're dead on here. Let's be blunt, he pulled the ultimate "ME" move by killing off wives and when the Catholic church wouldn't allow him to divorce them, he said "I'm the King damnit, I'll just start MY OWN religion so I can toss these ladies aside...even though I'm the one who's chromosomally challenged".


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## Duguesclin

I am always skeptical when I read that the younger generations are deemed inferior or not as good as the older ones. There is no lack of selfishness or materialism among couples with many years of "successful" marriage.
We should not confuse length of marriage with healthy marriage.
My parents and grandparents never divorced, but none were happy in their marriage.
I am happy in mine but I was not led by example, that's for sure.


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## treyvion

Duguesclin said:


> I am always skeptical when I read that the younger generations are deemed inferior or not as good as the older ones. There is no lack of selfishness or materialism among couples with many years of "successful" marriage.
> We should not confuse length of marriage with healthy marriage.
> My parents and grandparents never divorced, but none were happy in their marriage.
> I am happy in mine but I was not led by example, that's for sure.


They say every generation had a self centered portion. It's usually based around an age range.


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## jld

treyvion said:


> They say every generation had a self centered portion. It's usually based around an age range.


What would you say the age range is, treyvion?


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## treyvion

jld said:


> What would you say the age range is, treyvion?


Somewhere between 21 and 30. People go through the range of things that make people grow and understand life.


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## RoyR

Because now the trend is an even more viscious curve. Everyone talks about the 50% failure rate for marriages. 
What about the simple fact that THE LONGER YOU STAY MARRIED, THE MORE LIKELY YOU ARE TO DIVORCE ?

Long term marriage is becoming RARE.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Divorce is easier now, it's that simple. It may be very painful, but so is being forced to stay in a marriage because you have no other recourse. 

Women of previous generations were often utterly ruined by divorce. Swallowing every bit of their self-respect and tolerating her husband's mistresses and his ways was preferable to being the object of social shame and all that went with it. And now with women more financially successful it means that eventually the financial wreckage that men have suffered over the last 50 or so years in divorce courts will also become less. The laws have been changing for some time and will continue to.

It's not just about "me". Fact is that women are more able to live singly now, and many men like that. It means women are more available, it means more opportunities for love and sex, it means that they don't expect you to take care of them since they can take care of themselves, but they're pleased for what you do for them (well....often times). I love my wife, but I do not want to be her gatekeeper. I have my own life and I want her to live hers, and as long as we both want to share it, what more can I ask? And if that means one day she ends up leaving me, so be it. 

It's not easy to find someone you can continue to love throughout your life, and sometimes it takes a couple of tries, but I don't agree with the general lament about marriage--men and women will still want to share love unless misunderstanding between the sexes becomes really bad. That desire won't go away. It's just that finding the one that you are willing to share it all with is hard.

And some people are just not cut out for it. They get married because of the dream, and then realize too late that it's not for them. Let them go, as they say.


----------



## blackdog

bbird1 said:


> A good marriage is about waiting for the right person. The person you marry must share your core values. You need to look for someone who in their core matches you. To do this you must first know who you are and what you believe.


:iagree:

I really agree with the part that says that you must first know who you are and what you believe. Something that should be taught to further generations.


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## Mr The Other

My parents would be part of the more patient generation. They have been married almost forty years, of five kids, two died, one suffers greatly from illness and two prosper. They have saved and still live modestly, despite being now more financially secure than they could have hoped.

They were very pleased with my fiance when we got married. Less then two years later my Dad tires of me waiting to say anything and mentions that if I do go for a divorce I will have his full support.

Thankfully, he did not get smug and superior as he was born a generation before me.


----------



## Jeffyboy

It's only going to get worse. It seems that every generation becomes more me and me. Look at Japan right now. Nobody is dating or getting married. I believe this is the future.


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## arabian

Hello everyone.....I am new here, and this thread caught my attention right away. I completely concur with everything the OP said here, and see a lot of that too in people.

Culture also plays a large role here i.e. some cultures are more disciplined and strict than others in say the western world, where kids don't even get to repeat a grade when they fail, simply because their feeling shouldn't be hurt.

My 9yr marriage failure was a victim of this mentality, as my ex had her mum do everything for her, and didn't instill work ethic or the importance of education. I was the complete opposite.

Since my divorce, I have come across women both single with no kids and those with kids, who have a complete sense of entitlement, but try to mask this with a pretense. I am in my early 40s by the way...a professional, single dad (1 kid), well traveled, fit, and volunteer in the community.

I look around with today's teenagers, and I can't even imagine what kind of future they are going to have relationship wise when are all mostly like each other. Not to gender bash, but we continue to have Moms becoming BFFs with their daughter, and scared of disciplining them when they do something wrong i.e. raising kids to be just like them. Yes...some men are raising their sons to be lazy bums too who can't even do simply laundry or cook.

Unfortunately these days, there seems to be a lot of 30 plus marriages coming to an end.



lapdog said:


> Male, married 26 years, 2 college age kids, success reason:
> 
> Because both of us took the words "till death do us part" seriously. We committed to the institution of marriage, and the two of us are just in it for the ride. Do we always love each other, yes. Do we always like each other, no.
> Take each other for granted, yes. We both take for granted the knowledge that the other is committed, and whatever our arguments, there will be the two of us when it is ironed out.
> So many of today's relationships die because the parties only know about "me". They have been raised in the "me" generation, they have been forever (mostly falsely) praised by their parents so as to not hurt their self esteem. Momma and daddy have never let them struggle through something, and blatantly fail, so they have no skills to put together an ensuing plan to succeed. They have been given everything and told that they can have everything the want in life.....BS.
> They are self centered and egotistical immature people who do not understand that their partner is not there to make them happy and constantly pump up their fragile ego.


----------



## Kitt

YO, get off my lawn.....lol.


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## arabian

To the words in bold...if this was the case, then women from mid to long term marriages, won't be asking for alimony aka spousal support. Now before you jump down my throat, yes I gather NOT all pursue SS, but majority do out of spitefulness.

Who in their right mind will be happy paying indefinite SS, even when that woman decides to go shack up with some other guy, and in the process living larger than buddy paying her every month?

Still think marriage has something to offer you? Think again



Duguesclin said:


> I am always skeptical when I read that the younger generations are deemed inferior or not as good as the older ones. *There is no lack of selfishness or materialism among couples with many years of "successful" marriage.
> We should not confuse length of marriage with healthy marriage.*
> My parents and grandparents never divorced, but none were happy in their marriage.
> I am happy in mine but I was not led by example, that's for sure.


----------



## sisters359

I know a lot of unhappy couples who have stayed together b/c it is what they believed was right--usually for religious reasons. Interesting to note that the women in these marriages were primarily homemakers.

I also know a lot of happy couples, including younger couples, who have their difficult times but work through them. The women in these situations all work, so they have the option of leaving. Maybe, after a decade or more, some of these marriages will fail.

I know for a fact that many of the women who "stuck it out" in the old days wished they had the option to leave. They will say they stayed b/c they didn't have another choice--and they mean it; poverty was not a choice for them and their kids, so they stuck it out. 

As for the generational issue--I work with a lot of terrific young people. Not everyone under 20 is a self-entitled brat. Do I know some kids who are? Sure--but then, I knew them when I was young, too, in the 70s. Lots of kids today are being raised right. You just don't hear much about the majority that does the right thing and doesn't make waves about it or expect a parade. They'll be fine as individuals, and they will probably get to re-define marriage as have several generations before them now.


----------



## Fozzy

I blame Elvis and his swingin' hips!


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## arabian

I blame all the reality TV show crap....Bachelorette, Bachelor, Keepin up with whatever, housewives of whatever, Taylor Swift, Twitter, Instagram, Smartphones and the parents enabling the data usage.

When a kid has been raised with everything paid for, guess what happens when they start dating...yes, they expect stuff for free just because.

At least with hookers, you have an hourly rate. :surprise:


----------



## Fozzy

arabian said:


> I blame all the reality TV show crap....Bachelorette, Bachelor, Keepin up with whatever, housewives of whatever, Taylor Swift, Twitter, Instagram, Smartphones and the parents enabling the data usage.
> 
> *When a kid has been raised with everything paid for, guess what happens when they start dating...yes, they expect stuff for free just because.*
> 
> At least with hookers, you have an hourly rate. :surprise:




Huh? I pay for everything for my kids because they're kids.


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## EnigmaGirl

> I know for a fact that many of the women who "stuck it out" in the old days wished they had the option to leave. They will say they stayed b/c they didn't have another choice--and they mean it; poverty was not a choice for them and their kids, so they stuck it out.


Its very true. There's a lot of women who sell themselves and their kids out to stay in bad, unhealthy marriages because they're financially dependent on men.

I actually don't think the divorce rate is all bad. To me, it simply reflects that partners have a higher standard for marriage....they expect to actually be happy and fulfilled inside a marriage....not to just exist. There are a lot of people who've been married for a long time who are miserable and tolerate unbearable incompatibility in their partners. They tend to make their kids and everyone around them miserable too. I don't consider long marriages necessarily successful marriages.

Gone are the days when people were forced to stay in unhappy, miserable relationships because of the social stigma of divorcing. The issue is simply that marriage itself is outdated. It should be renewable rather than a life promise you make often when you're too young to reasonably guess future personal and life changes.

I think its wonderful that responsible women with self-esteem are financially independent and are able to make the choice to leave relationships that don't meet their needs.

That being said, there's nothing sweeter than seeing the two older people at the grocery store who've been lovingly married for 50 years and are still holding hands.


----------



## arabian

Confused.....? There are 18+ yr old kids still sponging, and that is what I speak of...get it now? These kids need to learn the value of money earlier, and get a job as soon as they hit pre-teen.

The only parent that will disagree with this, is one that had things given to them, and is probably living off a husband / wife.



Fozzy said:


> Huh? I pay for everything for my kids because they're kids.


----------



## arabian

i in every 2 marriages, and it's "not that bad"? If this was a business deal, not many will invest in it with this kind of odds



EnigmaGirl said:


> Its very true. There's a lot of women who sell themselves and their kids out to stay in bad, unhealthy marriages because they're financially dependent on men.
> 
> *I actually don't think the divorce rate is all bad.* To me, it simply reflects that partners have a higher standard for marriage....they expect to actually be happy and fulfilled inside a marriage....not to just exist. There are a lot of people who've been married for a long time who are miserable and tolerate unbearable incompatibility in their partners. They tend to make their kids and everyone around them miserable too. I don't consider long marriages necessarily successful marriages.
> 
> Gone are the days when people were forced to stay in unhappy, miserable relationships because of the social stigma of divorcing. The issue is simply that marriage itself is outdated. It should be renewable rather than a life promise you make often when you're too young to reasonably guess future personal and life changes.
> 
> I think its wonderful that responsible women with self-esteem are financially independent and are able to make the choice to leave relationships that don't meet their needs.
> 
> That being said, there's nothing sweeter than seeing the two older people at the grocery store who've been lovingly married for 50 years and are still holding hands.


----------



## GTdad

arabian said:


> and get a job as soon as they hit pre-teen.


So that would be what? 10? 11? Maybe carrying sheetrock or working on pipe racks?


----------



## arabian

Your fancy iphones, nike shoes, smart TV, Gucci bags, etc.....what do you think the median age of the worker producing those are in China?




GTdad said:


> So that would be what? 10? 11? Maybe carrying sheetrock or working on pipe racks?


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> i in every 2 marriages, and it's "not that bad"? If this was a business deal, not many will invest in it with this kind of odds


But that's the whole point...not everyone should get married. Hence its on the decline.

More importantly, before you get married, you need to realize there's a high rate of failure and financially protect yourself. Before my kids get married, I'm going to pull the latest files on divorce law in whatever state they're living in and review it with them so they understand what the risks are.

That being said, every relationship is a leap of faith...and taking 50% odds on being happy for the rest of my life? Well, I got married a second time...so there you go. There are compatibility factors which can increase your chances of success.


----------



## GTdad

arabian said:


> Your fancy iphones, nike shoes, smart TV, Gucci bags, etc.....what do you think the median age of the worker producing those are in China?


Well gosh, I guess I don't know how old the person was who made my Gucci bag.


----------



## arabian

Lame...of all the items I listed, you pulled that one? Fantastic :grin2:



GTdad said:


> Well gosh, I guess I don't know how old the person was who made my Gucci bag.


----------



## GTdad

arabian said:


> Lame...of all the items I listed, you pulled that one? Fantastic :grin2:


Well, actually I don't own any of the items on your list.

But please, tell me more about how pre-teens need to get jobs.

Maybe a foundry operator? Sawmill worker?


----------



## Fozzy

Of course! Why didn't I think of this sooner! By taking the kids out of school and making them slop hogs, or I dunno...polish the insides of artillery shells with their wee little fingers, WE CAN ELIMINATE DIVORCE!!!!

I predict this site will soon be obsolete.


----------



## southbound

breeze said:


> I think too many people go into marriage without due thought and consideration because they know they can bail as soon as the shine wears off. Work on it? Why, when there's surely something better out there. It's not a vow, it's a parking permit. I want to park in that space for a while and if I'm not happy, I'll just drive off.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In the last several years, I have heard several preachers say they have had couples come to them asking to be married, and they already had the attitude that if it didn't work they could always get divorced. Culture sure has changed.


----------



## azteca1986

GTdad said:


> Well, actually I don't own any of the items on your list.
> 
> But please, tell me more about how pre-teens need to get jobs.
> 
> Maybe a foundry operator? Sawmill worker?


Send the up chimneys or down coal mines. Sure, some of them will die but it will teach the survivors to value life. Win-win.



arabian said:


> Confused.....? There are 18+ yr old kids still sponging, and that is what I speak of...get it now? These kids need to learn the value of money earlier, and get a job as soon as they hit pre-teen.
> 
> The only parent that will disagree with this, is one that had things given to them, and is probably living off a husband / wife.


What about if your children are in higher education? Your predictive powers need a fine tune.



arabian said:


> i in every 2 marriages, and it's "not that bad"? If this was a business deal, not many will invest in it with this kind of odds


If you were a moderately successful business owner you wouldn't place too much value on the negativity of someone who ran their own business into the ground. Do you know the failure rate for new businesses? 

Besides, your marriage only lasted nine years, so you don't even qualify to be posting in this sub-forum. 

That's another problem with the "me" generation. They think they have a right to be heard. They talk when they should listen.


----------



## aine

lapdog said:


> Male, married 26 years, 2 college age kids, success reason:
> 
> Because both of us took the words "till death do us part" seriously. We committed to the institution of marriage, and the two of us are just in it for the ride. Do we always love each other, yes. Do we always like each other, no.
> Take each other for granted, yes. We both take for granted the knowledge that the other is committed, and whatever our arguments, there will be the two of us when it is ironed out.
> So many of today's relationships die because the parties only know about "me". They have been raised in the "me" generation, they have been forever (mostly falsely) praised by their parents so as to not hurt their self esteem. Momma and daddy have never let them struggle through something, and blatantly fail, so they have no skills to put together an ensuing plan to succeed. They have been given everything and told that they can have everything the want in life.....BS.
> They are self centered and egotistical immature people who do not understand that their partner is not there to make them happy and constantly pump up their fragile ego.


There may be some truth in what you say, particularly with the 'instant gratification' generation but every marriage is different and divorce has been around a lot longer than the 1970s, added to that is the fact that there is more stress on couples nowadays with work, technology, working women, etc, it will affect the best of marriages. Further, in the old days people were not necessarily happy, the often lived in dead marriages because that is what everyone else did. As long as there is humanity, failings will accompany them, period.


----------



## alexm

southbound said:


> In the last several years, I have heard several preachers say they have had couples come to them asking to be married, and they already had the attitude that if it didn't work they could always get divorced. Culture sure has changed.


That's actually not shocking (but it should be).

It's funny, because I'm rather old-school, even though I just sneaked in to the Gen X camp. I believe in "til death do us part" - to a point. I don't believe in staying together for the kids, or sticking it out through such things as infidelity, etc. But if something is fixable, then it should be fixed, imo. I think that if two people loved one another enough to get married, then it can be recovered if and when it deteriorates.

My first marriage was fixable, imo. She fell out of love with me, for whatever reason, but didn't make the effort to try and recover it. Instead, she quit. And that's the real problem in marriage these days - quitting. People no longer see divorce as something that's embarrassing and that they want to avoid. Rather, it's become an option that's incredibly mainstream and accepted. People don't even bat an eye these days when you tell them you're divorced. It's become the norm.

I'm starting to see more and more people (including friends and family) who just don't see the point of marriage any more. And they're actually not wrong. To many people, it's no longer the ultimate symbol of love. It's not an institution any more. Also, weddings can cost a heck of a lot of money. Something that many people just don't have enough of these days. Plus, if the relationship doesn't work out, it's just easier to not have to go through all the legal aspects of it (and potentially cheaper, too).

After my divorce, I didn't expect or plan on getting married again, primarily for all of those reasons above. But my wife had never been married, and wanted a wedding (and also we were high school sweethearts, so it seemed appropriate anyway). But the reality is that if she had been previously married as well, it's unlikely we would have gone that route, truthfully.


----------



## southbound

alexm said:


> That's actually not shocking (but it should be).
> 
> It's funny, because I'm rather old-school, even though I just sneaked in to the Gen X camp. I believe in "til death do us part" - to a point. I don't believe in staying together for the kids, or sticking it out through such things as infidelity, etc. But if something is fixable, then it should be fixed, imo. I think that if two people loved one another enough to get married, then it can be recovered if and when it deteriorates.
> 
> My first marriage was fixable, imo. She fell out of love with me, for whatever reason, but didn't make the effort to try and recover it. Instead, she quit. And that's the real problem in marriage these days - quitting. People no longer see divorce as something that's embarrassing and that they want to avoid. Rather, it's become an option that's incredibly mainstream and accepted. People don't even bat an eye these days when you tell them you're divorced. It's become the norm.
> 
> I'm starting to see more and more people (including friends and family) who just don't see the point of marriage any more. And they're actually not wrong. To many people, it's no longer the ultimate symbol of love. It's not an institution any more. Also, weddings can cost a heck of a lot of money. Something that many people just don't have enough of these days. Plus, if the relationship doesn't work out, it's just easier to not have to go through all the legal aspects of it (and potentially cheaper, too).
> 
> After my divorce, I didn't expect or plan on getting married again, primarily for all of those reasons above. But my wife had never been married, and wanted a wedding (and also we were high school sweethearts, so it seemed appropriate anyway). But the reality is that if she had been previously married as well, it's unlikely we would have gone that route, truthfully.


Good comments. I'm a lot like you. Whenever someone comments that people don't take marriage as seriously as past generations did, there are always those who jump in and tell us that past generations aren't so different and a lot of people were unhappy then, and there is truth to that too.

I certainly don't think people should stay together if they are being abused or cheated on, but I do feel that attitudes have changed so that fixable marriages aren't given the effort they once were. For some, marriage is a disposable institution anymore. people will stay with someone until they don't feel the excitement like they once did, and then they are ready to move on to the next set of bells and whistles.

The thing I notice is how quickly people move on to other relationships, which says to me they are looking for the next round of excitement as quickly as possible. They threw their old one away and it's time for a new one. Divorce is no longer embarrassing, even when it's for lame reasons. I know of a guy who is in his 50s and has been married 7 times. He doesn't care. 

I'm with you, my marriage was fixable too. My x found it easier to quit than try to fix it. My kids hate it to this day, and their relationship with her is far from what it is with me. I often wonder if she feels it was worth it. The kids hate the idea of her new husband and rarely even talk to him. She and my daughter have had more arguments than I can count.


----------



## arabian

I worked in higher education coupled with attending classes....and your point is?????

Marriage lasted 9yrs, but do you know how long we were together? Yes, pull the other one from the same place that came from 





azteca1986 said:


> Send the up chimneys or down coal mines. Sure, some of them will die but it will teach the survivors to value life. Win-win.
> 
> What about if your children are in higher education? Your predictive powers need a fine tune.
> 
> If you were a moderately successful business owner you wouldn't place too much value on the negativity of someone who ran their own business into the ground. Do you know the failure rate for new businesses?
> 
> Besides, your marriage only lasted nine years, so you don't even qualify to be posting in this sub-forum.
> 
> That's another problem with the "me" generation. They think they have a right to be heard. They talk when they should listen.


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## azteca1986

arabian said:


> I worked in higher education coupled with attending classes....and your point is?????


This is a meaningless statement. Our cleaning staff "work" in an ad agency.


> Marriage lasted 9yrs, but do you know how long we were together? Yes, pull the other one from the same place that came from


*Long Term Success in Marriage*
If you've been married 10+ years and consider your marriage a success, post your success story here. Help others by talking about what works for you.


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## SimplyAmorous

southbound said:


> *In the last several years, I have heard several preachers say they have had couples come to them asking to be married, and they already had the attitude that if it didn't work they could always get divorced. Culture sure has changed*.


Could anyone argue we are now living in a progressively "*Disposal society*"... I've been reading some articles on this in the past couple weeks....

The cultural changes are VAST..the most disgruntled with marriage welcomes these changes, many would like to see  Renewable Marriage Contracts , feeling this will solve many things.. 

Me personally.. I am saddened :frown2:... What I see is.. with some of the gains for GOOD.. there have been many losses along the way ....what was once important, valued...has shifted to such a degree.. it's become habitual /common place that relationships aren't meant to last...now we are told we are all non -monogamous so embrace it , enjoy it... why fight against our nature. 

Along with this goes commitment, the idea of lasting love, fighting to save something when the "going gets rough"...

I haven't read this book.. but from the articles I have gathered.. this does a fine job explaining how we got HERE... 

The Narcissism Epidemic: Living in the Age of Entitlement ....Take parents for example... While most parents teach their kids to be nice, the overall cultural push is to teach them to succeed/ to believe in themselves, self confidence is like a GOD... instead of teaching empathy for others, practicing gratitude, teaching children friendship skills, with the emphasis on others rather than self.



> Me, me, me! America?s ?Narcissism Epidemic? - TODAY.com
> 
> People buy expensive homes with loans far beyond their ability to pay — or at least they did until the mortgage market collapsed as a result. Babies wear bibs embroidered with "Supermodel" or "Chick Magnet" and suck on "Bling" pacifiers while their parents read modernized nursery rhymes from This Little Piggy Went to Prada. People strive to create a "personal brand" (also called "self-branding"), packaging themselves like a product to be sold. Ads for financial services proclaim that retirement helps you return to childhood and pursue your dreams. High school students pummel classmates and then seek attention for their violence by posting YouTube videos of the beatings.
> 
> Although these seem like a random collection of current trends, all are rooted in a single underlying shift in the American psychology: the relentless rise of narcissism in our culture. Not only are there more narcissists than ever, but non-narcissistic people are seduced by the increasing emphasis on material wealth, physical appearance, celebrity worship, and attention seeking. Standards have shifted, sucking otherwise humble people into the vortex of granite countertops, tricked-out MySpace pages, and plastic surgery. A popular dance track repeats the words Money, Success, Fame, Glamour  over and over, declaring that all other values have "either been discredited or destroyed."





> Reflecting on narcissism
> 
> Imagine a country where everyone acts like a reality show contestant — obsessed with power, status and appearance, and is comfortable manipulating others for their personal gain. “I’m here to win, not make friends,” would be the national motto.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This society would have high crime rates — white collar and violent — as people take whatever they feel entitled to, says Christopher Barry, PhD, a psychology professor at the University of Southern Mississippi and lead editor of “Narcissism and Machiavellianism in Youth” (APA, 2010). Cosmetic surgery would be routine, materialism rampant, and everyone would seek fame or notoriety, he adds. It would also be a place with high rates of anxiety and depression. That’s because narcissists — people with an inflated sense of their importance and abilities — have trouble keeping friends, even though they are good at making them, Barry’s found.
> 
> “A narcissistic society would be a deeply lonely place,” Barry says.
> 
> According to some researchers, that is precisely where America is heading.


In this article 



> Narcissism is a psychocultural affliction rather than a physical disease...Understanding the narcissism epidemic is important because its long-term consequences are destructive to society. American culture's focus on self-admiration has caused a flight from reality to the land of grandiose fantasy. We have phony rich people (with interest-only mortgages and piles of debt), phony beauty (with plastic surgery and cosmetic procedures), phony athletes (with performance-enhancing drugs), phony celebrities (via reality TV and YouTube), phony genius students (with grade inflation), a phony national economy (with $11 trillion of government debt), phony feelings of being special among children (with parenting and education focused on self-esteem), and phony friends (with the social networking explosion). All this fantasy might feel good, but, unfortunately, reality always wins. The mortgage meltdown and the resulting financial crisis are just one demonstration of how inflated desires eventually crash to earth.


This is not to say that sometimes DIVORCE is the BEST OPTION ..

I found this to be a very balanced article....Disposable?relationships? | Vivid Life.. on what is worthy to leave..(physically abusive, married to a pathological liar, etc) ..then it laid out where it should be given TIME, sincere effort /communication on both ends .... 



> Then I have found some other reasons that warrant a slower departure, after much consideration and attempts to reconcile (or at least part amicably)…
> 
> *** Someone is unable or unwilling to communicate responsibly
> *** Someone is incapable or unwilling to keep their agreements
> *** Someone is repeatedly unwilling or incapable of seeing their part in the relationship
> ** *Someone partakes in addictive behavior that created an unhealthy or unsafe environment (either emotionally or physically)
> ** *Someone’s psychological needs becomes paramount and needs attention beyond the scope of either partner
> *** Someone’s behavior is constantly contradictory to the arrangements and agreements (implied or otherwise) set forth in the partnership...
> 
> You are absolutely convinced, based on careful observation and counsel, that regardless of what this person says or does you simply do not share the same reality, and are therefore left to accept that the chasm is too great to createreal intimacy.


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## jld

SA, I think that post is worth its own thread.


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## southbound

SimplyAmorous said:


> Could anyone argue we are now living in a progressively "*Disposal society*"... I've been reading some articles on this in the past couple weeks....
> 
> The cultural changes are VAST..the most disgruntled with marriage welcomes these changes, many would like to see  Renewable Marriage Contracts , feeling this will solve many things..
> 
> Me personally.. I am saddened :frown2:... What I see is.. with some of the gains for GOOD.. there have been many losses along the way ....what was once important, valued...has shifted to such a degree.. it's become habitual /common place that relationships aren't meant to last...now we are told we are all non -monogamous so embrace it , enjoy it... why fight against our nature.
> 
> Along with this goes commitment, the idea of lasting love, fighting to save something when the "going gets rough"...
> 
> I haven't read this book.. but from the articles I have gathered.. this does a fine job explaining how we got HERE...
> 
> The Narcissism Epidemic: Living in the Age of Entitlement ....Take parents for example... While most parents teach their kids to be nice, the overall cultural push is to teach them to succeed/ to believe in themselves, self confidence is like a GOD... instead of teaching empathy for others, practicing gratitude, teaching children friendship skills, with the emphasis on others rather than self.


I think that is a good way to say it. Whenever someone starts talking about "the good old days," there are always going to be those who will jump in and tell us that the good old days weren't so good, and you know what, they have good points. I'm with you, however, I think with the progress we have made and things that have changed for the better, there have also been losses along the way. 

It's a shift in attitude that has changed how we do things that, in my opinion, aren't always for the better. this affects many aspects of life. The topic here just happens to be marriage. I'm sure there were marriages in the past that would have been better off if they had resulted in divorce, but with our culture then, it didn't happen. Now, however, our culture has went to the other end of the spectrum, and marriage has become no big deal, it's disposable. If I ponder a bit and decide I'm not happy because the bread isn't buttered properly, then get a divorce and move on to greener pastures, no big deal.


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## coffee4me

SimplyAmorous said:


> Take parents for example... While most parents teach their kids to be nice, the overall cultural push is to teach them to succeed/ to believe in themselves, self confidence is like a GOD... instead of teaching empathy for others, practicing gratitude, teaching children friendship skills, with the emphasis on others rather than self.


I don't look at what is being taught to the current generation as self confidence. I think of it as self importance. 

My children are very confident in themselves and as a result they are not so self focused and therefore can be empathic, appreciative and friendly to others. 

Giving every kid a trophy for participation doesn't nurture self confidence it nurtures self importance. I'm just as valuable as the MVP. Although great in theory that is not the reality of the world.

Self importance doesn't foster good team dynamics or couple dynamics.


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## Mr The Other

coffee4me said:


> I don't look at what is being taught to the current generation as self confidence. I think of it as self importance.
> 
> My children are very confident in themselves and as a result they are not so self focused and therefore can be empathic, appreciative and friendly to others.
> 
> Giving every kid a trophy for participation doesn't nurture self confidence it nurtures self importance. I'm just as valuable as the MVP. Although great in theory that is not the reality of the world.
> 
> Self importance doesn't foster good team dynamics or couple dynamics.


Prizes for all is also a gross misunderstanding of the insight it is based on. Scrap prizes, compete if you will, it is up to you. But an external reward suggests the thing is not worth doing for its own sake.


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## Mr The Other

EnigmaGirl said:


> Its very true. There's a lot of women who sell themselves and their kids out to stay in bad, unhealthy marriages because they're financially dependent on men.
> 
> I actually don't think the divorce rate is all bad. To me, it simply reflects that partners have a higher standard for marriage....they expect to actually be happy and fulfilled inside a marriage....not to just exist. There are a lot of people who've been married for a long time who are miserable and tolerate unbearable incompatibility in their partners. They tend to make their kids and everyone around them miserable too. I don't consider long marriages necessarily successful marriages.
> 
> Gone are the days when people were forced to stay in unhappy, miserable relationships because of the social stigma of divorcing. The issue is simply that marriage itself is outdated. It should be renewable rather than a life promise you make often when you're too young to reasonably guess future personal and life changes.
> 
> I think its wonderful that responsible women with self-esteem are financially independent and are able to make the choice to leave relationships that don't meet their needs.
> 
> That being said, there's nothing sweeter than seeing the two older people at the grocery store who've been lovingly married for 50 years and are still holding hands.


50% is not as bad as it sounds, it is true. 

If fifty percent of people were able to commit of everyone getting married, then 2/3 of marriage would bed in divorce and a larger proportion of second marriages etc, leaving you with a divorce rate of 75%. 

A 50% divorce rate of first marriages implies about 2/3 are capable of seeing it through. Expect it is actually slightly more as those who are rubbish at it may get married several times. That leaves us with approximately 25% who just should not get married and often that will be from youth and inexperience.


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## NobodySpecial

lapdog said:


> Male, married 26 years, 2 college age kids, success reason:
> 
> Because both of us took the words "till death do us part" seriously. We committed to the* institution of marriage*, and the two of us are just in it for the ride. Do we always love each other, yes. Do we always like each other, no.
> _Take each other for granted_, yes. We both _take for granted the knowledge that the other is committed_, and whatever our arguments, there will be the two of us when it is ironed out.


I think this can go either way. Committing to the institution can have the opposite effect. Taking someone for granted is Not Good. And committing to the institution can instead contribute to a complacency that is the opposite of caring, empathetic solutions. 





> So many of today's relationships die because the parties only know about "me". They have been raised in the "me" generation, they have been forever (mostly falsely) praised by their parents so as to not hurt their self esteem.


I don't agree. I think they were raised in dysfunctional families and have no learning model of how to do a relationship. What they lack, in fact, is relationship skill. You see it on here all the time.


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## jb02157

I definitely agree with the OP on this. People are always thinking about themselves and their needs and not those of their spouse and family. I do think this was bought on by kids not having the life skills they need to suceed during the bad times so they learn to quit instead of perservere.


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## Dread Pirate Roberts

As was said at the beginning of this thread, the "Me Generation" indeed has skyrocketing divorce rates. But that's the Baby Boomers, not Gen Xers or Millennials. It smacks of "kids these days", and it's not accurate.

DPR


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## Faithful Wife

When those younger generations are our age, they will have high divorce numbers, too. It takes quite a few years of marriage first before most people divorce. They don't typically divorce in their 20's.


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## As'laDain

i have heard a lot about my generation. 

everyone seems to want to judge us. we are judged as selfish, impatient, lacking morals, lacking foresight, impenitent, etc. 


makes me wonder why our nation allows us to fight our wars for her.


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## rachaelm

lapdog said:


> Male, married 26 years, 2 college age kids, success reason:
> 
> Because both of us took the words "till death do us part" seriously. We committed to the institution of marriage, and the two of us are just in it for the ride. Do we always love each other, yes. Do we always like each other, no.
> Take each other for granted, yes. We both take for granted the knowledge that the other is committed, and whatever our arguments, there will be the two of us when it is ironed out.
> So many of today's relationships die because the parties only know about "me". They have been raised in the "me" generation, they have been forever (mostly falsely) praised by their parents so as to not hurt their self esteem. Momma and daddy have never let them struggle through something, and blatantly fail, so they have no skills to put together an ensuing plan to succeed. They have been given everything and told that they can have everything the want in life.....BS.
> They are self centered and egotistical immature people who do not understand that their partner is not there to make them happy and constantly pump up their fragile ego.


Stereotype much?


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