# Bad advice on TAM from inexperienced people



## goingsolo12 (Mar 26, 2017)

Hi all,

I read a thread on TAM from a long time ago (I won't mention the details, that thread is a part of the private section).

It was about a individual who had a PA and was trying to justify it in the threads, now my issue is that certain '*inexperienced*' (who don't know jack **** about what a person goes through when he/she becomes entangled in infidelity) individuals were justifying the decision of the OP to have an affair. Validating the OPs choices, berating the OPs spouse on the thread for trying to separate.The OP expected the BS to open up and act normal after only one month of discovering the affair and was just bragging about how the OP wants to keep the marriage together but the BS is not responding. I couldn't believe what i was reading and the advice people offered on the thread I mean it was ridiculous. The advice given was pathetic and in no way helpful to the BS or the WS, it kept the WS in the affair fog. 

*My request is to the wise people of TAM- people who unfortunately have experienced this hell called infidelity and have come out stronger need to post more on the private and other sections*. Your sage advice is needed. Don't let punks who have no experience ruin lives just because they want to comment on a thread because they find it interesting.

Just my humble request

Thankyou


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Every case of infidelity is different. Just as every person is different, not all infidelity falls into a tidy little package that follows the same rules of engagement. The unfortunate reality is that the bulk of the members here at TAM have a negative view of R and will be fairly blunt over that. 

I didn't see that particular post, but we have had quite a few people scared away by the TAM "Divorce her!" contingent recently. 

I think a lot of people come here thinking TAM is more "pro marriage" than it actually is. I'm talking about the membership, not the admin. If a person comes here saying they are interested in fixing what has been broken, they get beat into the ground over it and either quit posting or their mind gets so screwed up that they can't tell which way is up. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

As a betrayed husband that came here BEGGING for people to tell me how to reconcile with my remorseless, cheating wife a few years ago.....

I found the advice I was given was exactly what I needed. It was spot on. I was told what she would say before she said it.
Hit WAS NOT what I wanted to hear. It hurt tremendously. 
They would ask if she said x,y,z, and I would be astonished when I had to say yes.

95% of it was not what I wanted to hear. I wanted to stop posting and just get out of here. However, I eventually started getting it. Advice here saved me countless months of suffering, although it was a long time before I felt good anyway.

Yes, it stinks. to see advice one knows to be harmful. The OP's have to accept the good and ignore the bad. 

But if people have enough sense to recognize good advice, they will accept it eventually, In spite of the bad.

We can't help people who aren't very intelligent, or easily led down the wrong path.
We just have to have faith that if our advice is correct, it will be found logical and obvious where it's needed.


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## goingsolo12 (Mar 26, 2017)

TX-SC said:


> Every case of infidelity is different. Just as every person is different, not all infidelity falls into a tidy little package that follows the same rules of engagement. The unfortunate reality is that the bulk of the members here at TAM have a negative view of R and will be fairly blunt over that.
> 
> I didn't see that particular post, but we have had quite a few people scared away by the TAM "Divorce her!" contingent recently.
> 
> ...


I personally believe that posters on TAM have the right mindset compared to other forums. The posters on TAM can point out easily if the BS is being a doormat or if a WS is blame shifting, what i am trying to say is that posters of TAM in the "Coping with Infidelity' section have experience with infidelity, and therefore they are more suited to advice people on the same problems because they faced these problems themselves. Now these posters can be pro marriage or pro divorce doesn't matter, the fact is that they are more suited to advice people entangled in infidelity because of their experience instead of people who have no experience and would have little clue on what advice to give.


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## goingsolo12 (Mar 26, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> As a betrayed husband that came here BEGGING for people to tell me how to reconcile with my remorseless, cheating wife a few years ago.....
> 
> I found the advice I was given was exactly what I needed. It was spot on. I was told what she would say before she said it.
> Hit WAS NOT what I wanted to hear. It hurt tremendously.
> ...


 @Evinrude58 you are absolutely correct, all victims of infidelity come with a certain mindset to such forums, they know what they want to do whether divorce or reconcile, most of them just here to validate their thoughts that the decision they are taking is the right one, however there are many who need a slap on the back of the head to bring them to reality. It can be giving the WS a piece of your mind to break the affair fog or to make the BS realize that he/she is being a doormat.
The point is you need experienced people to call a spade a spade when they see one.People who have no experience with such a sensitive subject should be more cautious when they post. An inexperienced poster who was fortunate enough to not have experienced infidelity would not be able to identify blame shifting or if the WS is in a fog.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Reminds me of a poster stating that certain actions of the WS are acceptable, even if it hurts the BS - in order to save the marriage. Huh? A couple of others and myself shut him down because he hasn't been cheated on, nor the others who had agreed with him.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

goingsolo12 said:


> I personally believe that posters on TAM have the right mindset compared to other forums. The posters on TAM can point out easily if the BS is being a doormat or if a WS is blame shifting, what i am trying to say is that posters of TAM in the "Coping with Infidelity' section have experience with infidelity, and therefore they are more suited to advice people on the same problems because they faced these problems themselves. Now these posters can be pro marriage or pro divorce doesn't matter, the fact is that they are more suited to advice people entangled in infidelity because of their experience instead of people who have no experience and would have little clue on what advice to give.


So, everybody else needs to shut up and let "the adults" talk about this? Nobody can have an opinion except those that have a similar experience? So then, let's not make TAM a public forum. We'll only have a roundtable discussion closed to those who apply for membership with their credentials and are allowed to speak? Sounds like fun! What shall these credentials consist of? Do we need to have sworn testimony and D papers to show we are part of this elite group? 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

I do believe there are a few posters on TAM TALK ABOUT MARRIAGE who have either not been married, or who are married (and in their mind, are happily married) who constantly give advice on infidelity or other serious marital issues, although they have not experienced the trauma, are not qualified counselors, but are armchair observers. It think they are just here because they are bored and have no friends in real life, and to them TAM is just a Jerry Springer situation where they can anonymously give their unqualified advice. They are basically, long term trolls.

Real people's lives and pain is not something to take lightly. Most people are not on TAM because they want attention. They want opinions, support, etc. from people who have personal experience with the same thing they are dealing with.

Anyone can have an opinion on politics, religion, food, etc. But IMO married people should be counseling married people about marriage issues only if they have experienced it themselves.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

goingsolo12 said:


> @Evinrude58 you are absolutely correct, all victims of infidelity come with a certain mindset to such forums, they know what they want to do whether divorce or reconcile, most of them just here to validate their thoughts that the decision they are taking is the right one, however there are many who need a slap on the back of the head to bring them to reality. It can be giving the WS a piece of your mind to break the affair fog or to make the BS realize that he/she is being a doormat.
> 
> The point is you need experienced people to call a spade a spade when they see one.People who have no experience with such a sensitive subject should be more cautious when they post. An inexperienced poster who was fortunate enough to not have experienced infidelity would not be able to identify blame shifting or if the WS is in a fog.


I would have helped if you had posted a link to the thread that you used as the discussion point for this thread. Since you did not, we really have no idea what you are talking about. What you described as being posted on that thread is very rare on TAM. Most of the time WS are verbally beaten to a pulp and chased off TAM. It is unfortunate that the this happens because more help could be provided if people who have cheated felt safe posting here.

Now to address the above quote. TAM is an open forum that allows anyone who is respectful of other posters to post here. We allow different opinions. It is not your place to decide who has the right to post, or who has the correct answer, or type of advice.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I do believe there are a few posters on TAM TALK ABOUT MARRIAGE who have either not been married, or who are married (and in their mind, are happily married) who constantly give advice on infidelity, and on other serious marital issues, although they are not qualified counselors, but armchair observers.


Um, while I often agree with your posts, this one is way out of line. You seem to not realize that you too not a qualified counselor and only an armchair observer as well.

I can pretty well guess who some of the posters are who you are attacking here. What’s funny is that you are attacking them because they are feel that they are happily married. Maybe those who are struggling with their maraige could learn a lot from people who are happily married. What a concept, huh?

Further, at least one of those individuals have helped a fair number of people on TAM improve their marriages to the point of avoiding divorce. So maybe, just maybe, they might have some useful input. 

Just because you don’t agree with someone, does not mean that they are wrong. All opinions are welcome on TAM.


IMFarAboveRubies said:


> It think they are just here because they are bored and have no friends in real life, and to them TAM is just a Jerry Springer situation where they can anonymously give their unqualified advice. They are basically, long term trolls.


You know the TAM policy about calling other members trolls? Right? Are you looking for a week or two of a time-out ban?


IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Real people's lives and pain is not something to take lightly. Most people are not on TAM because they want attention. They want opinions, support, etc. from people who have personal experience with the same thing they are dealing with.
> 
> Anyone can have an opinion on politics, religion, food, etc. But IMO married people should be counseling married people about marriage issues only if they have experienced it themselves.


On TAM you are not a counselor. You are not technically counseling anyone. On TAM you're just voicing your opinion.

Many people, every week are driven off TAM because of the input/advice given by the members here. This is something that I have been concerned about for some time now. The people who stay on TAM self-select, they stay because they are hearing what they want to hear.

New posters on TAM PM me fairly often telling me that they are leaving TAM because of the type harsh replies (I’m talking about BS’s here) that they receive on TAM. Often, they want to first try to recover their marriage but find that they are attacked and insulted for wanting to do that.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

IMO, I've read good advice here and bad advice.

What is good about the bad advice is that it can give you an idea of how people in real life may view your issue. So even bad advice can you help prepare for dealing with the real world.

And I always remind myself, you can get bad advice anywhere -- from friends, from family member and from paid therapists. The advantage with TAM is the if someone negatively judges you here, at least you don't have to deal with in real life. Imagine confiding in a friend or family member who then gossips about your problems to others. 

At the end of the day, you have decide for yourself your next move.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

The reality is that this is a internet forum, you get opinions and advice, be it good or bad, as an adult posting a tidbit of your story, you should be able to distinguish between what is the best for yourself and your situation. If you want experienced or expert advice, go to a professional or an elder who's experienced in life. 

Take which advice that best appeals to you. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Um, while I often agree with your posts, this one is way out of line. You seem to not realize that you too not a qualified counselor and only an armchair observer as well.
> 
> I can pretty well guess who some of the posters are who you are attacking here. What’s funny is that you are attacking them because they are feel that they are happily married. Maybe those who are struggling with their maraige could learn a lot from people who are happily married. What a concept, huh?
> 
> ...


Who did I call a troll? I have not named anyone. There are plenty of happily married people here that I don't find offensive, and whose posts I really appreciate. I am not the only person who finds a few armchair voyeurs lacking in empathy and/or having an agenda.

No I am not being paid, but giving one's opinion can be construed as counseling. I hope everyone who reads my posts considers them, takes what they think is helpful to them, and discards the rest. I would not give an opinion or advice to someone who has an issue I know nothing about.

When someone is just asking for opinions about a subject I have not experienced I sometimes give mine, because they have just asked for an opinion. However, when someone is really hurting and needs advice and their situation is nothing like mine, I try to stay out...say for example if they have an open marriage. I can't relate, because I don't believe in open marriage in the first place. If I gave advice, I would be having an agenda, because I am against open marriage in every form. There is a poster here who has not experienced marital difficulty, much less infidelity, and who has an agenda, that comes out over and over in their posts to people who are experiencing very serious issues that require some bit of empathy to relate. They don't need someone else's agenda to derail the reason they are here.


I am pro marriage, and am in a working R, although it is difficult sometimes, so I understand the complexities of trying to stay married to someone who has been unfaithful, even though they have stopped being unfaithful and they are trying to "fix" themself and the damage they have caused.

I know you too understand first hand the complexities of difficulties in marriage, whether it is financial, emotional, abuse or infidelity. I always appreciate your posts, Elegirl. You are not a voyeur, or just looking for entertainment, nor do you have an agenda. You have experience and empathy. I am always amazed at how carefully you read each person's posts, and how you tailor your detailed response to them with links to books or articles that apply specifically to their situation.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

I, for one, have given bad advice or had a bad opinion and posted on threads. @sofakingtodd I had said his wife had cheated and would fail the poly. Although she admitted an indescretion prior to the poly she then passed. Clearly I was wrong, and I believe I apologized to sofaking as a result. However, I believe the diversity here is great, and that the posters here are far more intelligent then other forums. It all comes down to what has been said above. Take the advice that pertains to you and discard what doesn't.

As for WS, I believe they are treated harshly here, and that BS who choose to reconcile can be treated harshly. Those who have gone through this pain can easily forget the WS is also human. I am guilty of this as well, my pain becomes anger and then I post out of anger. I remember the pain all too well, and I should be mature enough to post respectively, but I don't. Just another one of my flaws that comes shining through!!!


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

drifting on said:


> I, for one, have given bad advice or had a bad opinion and posted on threads. @sofakingtodd I had said his wife had cheated and would fail the poly. Although she admitted an indescretion prior to the poly she then passed. Clearly I was wrong, and I believe I apologized to sofaking as a result. However, I believe the diversity here is great, and that the posters here are far more intelligent then other forums. It all comes down to what has been said above. Take the advice that pertains to you and discard what doesn't.
> 
> As for WS, I believe they are treated harshly here, and that BS who choose to reconcile can be treated harshly. Those who have gone through this pain can easily forget the WS is also human. I am guilty of this as well, my pain becomes anger and then I post out of anger. I remember the pain all too well, and I should be mature enough to post respectively, but I don't. Just another one of my flaws that comes shining through!!!


QFT. I have deleted my posts (now I can't delete the entire post, but have to leave a . or something) if I realize they are wrong, or out of anger due to my own triggering, or because I'm having a bad day.

I think TAM is very pro marriage, but there are lots of posters who are very pro D in the case of infidelity.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Evinrude58 said:


> As a betrayed husband that came here BEGGING for people to tell me how to reconcile with my remorseless, cheating wife a few years ago.....
> 
> I found the advice I was given was exactly what I needed. It was spot on. * I was told what she would say before she said it.*
> Hit WAS NOT what I wanted to hear. It hurt tremendously.
> ...


I found that also in my situation. Having dealt with inappropriate opposite sex friendships in my first marriage, I was able to predict things correctly about my (future) husband's just a friend ex.

I predicted that she would advise him to drop me. I saw that in text.

Every time I saw her sign onto his FB wall, I knew that he had been in touch with her. 

I have decided that the range of emotions and bahviors among humans is just really not that great.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Here's my perspective:

1. Just because you don't like the advise doesn't make it bad.

2. Like it or not, infidelity means either there something wrong with the way the both of you conduct the dynamics of the marriage or you have a spouse that has no loyalty and respect for you. 
leading to,

3. A professional may help if there is something wrong with the way the both of you conduct the dynamics of the marriage (that resulted the cheating*) or you just need your behind powered because your spouse hurt you. Otherwise forget it and find someone with some loyalty and actually loves and respects you.

*yep, the way you mismanage the marriage and treat your spouse can, and often does, result in them cheating.


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## goingsolo12 (Mar 26, 2017)

TX-SC said:


> So, everybody else needs to shut up and let "the adults" talk about this? Nobody can have an opinion except those that have a similar experience? So then, let's not make TAM a public forum. We'll only have a roundtable discussion closed to those who apply for membership with their credentials and are allowed to speak? Sounds like fun! What shall these credentials consist of? Do we need to have sworn testimony and D papers to show we are part of this elite group?
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


Oh not at all, I never meant that. There can be cases where in a person though inexperienced can have a high emotional intelligence and can come up with a good advice. Exceptions are always there for every situation. That is the beauty of such forums that everybody gets to voice their opinion, if you would read my original post in it I have mentioned that people who have experience should post more not that inexperienced people should not post at all. Solutions and good advice can come from anywhere but it really helps a poster if experience people post more.


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## goingsolo12 (Mar 26, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> I would have helped if you had posted a link to the thread that you used as the discussion point for this thread. Since you did not, we really have no idea what you are talking about. What you described as being posted on that thread is very rare on TAM. Most of the time WS are verbally beaten to a pulp and chased off TAM. It is unfortunate that the this happens because more help could be provided if people who have cheated felt safe posting here.
> 
> Now to address the above quote. TAM is an open forum that allows anyone who is respectful of other posters to post here. We allow different opinions. It is not your place to decide who has the right to post, or who has the correct answer, or type of advice.


I never said that people should be restricted from posting on TAM on such issues, I apologize if I wasn't clear in my original post. All I did was make a humble request to experienced posters to post more, so that people can benefit from their sage advice and experience. As i mentioned in an earlier post, no doubt that solutions and sage advice can come from anywhere, so inexperienced posters with high emotional intelligence can give a very sound advice but exceptions are far and few. 

I hope I made myself clear, apologies for the confusion :smile2:


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Who did I call a troll? I have not named anyone. There are plenty of happily married people here that I don't find offensive, and whose posts I really appreciate. I am not the only person who finds a few armchair voyeurs lacking in empathy and/or having an agenda.
> 
> No I am not being paid, but giving one's opinion can be construed as counseling. I hope everyone who reads my posts considers them, takes what they think is helpful to them, and discards the rest. I would not give an opinion or advice to someone who has an issue I know nothing about.
> 
> ...



God help me!

I had to run to the mirror....to see if my ears were burning.

I never made it to the mirror. I tripped and fell, the glass of lemonade I was carrying wet my face and ears. The mirror exam was dashed.

One can assume that if no steam presented itself, and no char marks be seen....I can live and post another day.

And I can presume no Rhinestone Rubies will be slipped into my morning yogurt.....to break my teeth and my resolve.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Once that you're an unsuspecting and bonafide victim of infidelity, you simply seem to gain this vestige of reality, greatly to the point, that you can so easily tell whether or not someone is blatantly cheating on their spouse, or if they are indeed cheating, but in the whole scheme of things, are simply just pi$$ing on their "betrayed's" shoes in the entire process and just merely telling them that it's only a passing thundershower!*


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

I have no issue with the mindset of any poster here on TAM (CWI), although I would like to see a more balanced view being expressed overall. Meaning that I hope that more people with a pro-reconciliation view would post. I strongly disagree with anyone being prevented from having an opinion (or being told that theirs is rubbish) because they don't have the right "experiential credentials". People who have had similar experiences can often offer very relevant advice, simply because they have been there. But this also means that they are less likely to be as objective as someone who doesn't have a strong emotional trigger. 

I do have an issue with the way that some of the more negative and outspoken posters can express their views. They can come across as extremely aggressive towards anyone who disagrees with them. I am not a fan of trying to win an argument by attacking the person, and I do see a fair amount of that going on. (You don't agree with me, therefore you must be weak/spineless/co-dependent/pathetic etc.) In the case of BS OP's, there is also a very common practise of constantly and repeatedly referencing any negative/painful memory that the OP has shared with respect to their spouse or the infidelity. I am assuming that this is to elicit an emotional response, but frankly, I think it can be even more abusive than some of the overly aggressive behaviour. 

It is extremely sad that certain OP's have felt abused, and some have even left because of it. (I also think it may have prevented would-be posters from making themselves vulnerable in the first place.) I remain extremely grateful to most of the posters who took the time to post on my thread when I first came to TAM. Some of them were harsh and others were more supportive, but because of the dialogue that I had, I was able to move beyond a state of pathetic angst into one where I was taking action. And I felt less alone as I got responses on my own thread, and started reading those of others. But, I have since read posts on other threads and thought to myself that I was really glad that [insert hostile outspoken poster's name here] hadn't ever deigned to drop by onto my thread. I had a relatively smooth journey when I started here. 

I think that as long as posters post with empathy and with a consideration for the impact of their post, then they should be encouraged to express whatever view they personally hold. And yes, it is the OP's call whether they take the advice or even listen to it in the first place. But they should never be made to feel guilty or weak/pathetic for choosing not to take anyone's advice.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

goingsolo12 said:


> Oh not at all, I never meant that. There can be cases where in a person though inexperienced can have a high emotional intelligence and can come up with a good advice. Exceptions are always there for every situation. That is the beauty of such forums that everybody gets to voice their opinion, if you would read my original post in it I have mentioned that people who have experience should post more not that inexperienced people should not post at all. Solutions and good advice can come from anywhere but it really helps a poster if experience people post more.


If I experience inifidelity, I am experiencing a unique form of infidelity, one that occurs within the framework of two unique people. In this regard, experience with infidelity is only important in that you understand some of the emotions. But, each case is different since each person is different. Each set of circumstances will be different, even if there are some similarities. 

I would argue that being married isn't that important in this regard. The pain of infidelity, and all of the emotions associated with it, can be felt be people who are single, or engaged, or even in open relationships. My fiancée cheated on me just before the wedding. I broke up with her and had to cancel the wedding. I met my future wife a bit later and have now been happily married for 21 years with no infidelity. I can guarantee you that the pain I felt could not have been more intense if I had already married her. The only difference is that I did not have to deal with divorce. 

In some ways, experiencing these things skews us in a negative way. If you see every WS as an extension of your own horrible ex-spouse, and project that on every thread, then I'd say your experience is not helpful at all. Experience is only helpful when we can see that our experience is unique to ourselves and our own situation. 

Getting on every single thread and screaming divorce is simply not helpful. Realize that posters on this forum are adults and can make their own decision. Belittling them by calling them weak, beta, or stupid is simply not helpful. 

Although I am definately not a pushover, I cannot say how I would handle it if my wife cheated. There is more to a relationship to consider than simply turning your back and divorcing. 

There is a thread going right now by a man who's wife has been diagnosed with an STD. She may have cheated. The thing is, he has said from the beginning that he just wants to figure it out and has zero interest in divorce. So, what advice is he getting? I bet you can figure it out. 

PS: Dang, how many times can I type "simply"? 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## Nrecnocymton (Jan 12, 2017)

GS12:

I realize you would like more posting done by the experienced CWI posters, but you should consider what you titled this thread. If you really meant what you're saying, perhaps something like, "Experienced CWI posters, please post more to offset inexperienced advice". Additionally, I don't know how many inexperienced posters would think of themselves as "low emotional intelligence" people.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

I know it's Off-Topic, but I shouldn't have stumbled on the OP's name right after flipping past a Sex In Marriage thread about a wife complaining about her husband's self-gratification to porn.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

goingsolo12 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I read a thread on TAM from a long time ago (I won't mention the details, that thread is a part of the private section).
> 
> ...


The problem with labeling - anything - is that it pigeonholes things to the point where it's applicable to nobody.

In this case, labeling any advice as "bad", means that nobody will bother reading it. And it would have been useful for somebody.

BTW, phrases like "entangled in infidelity" and "experienced infidelity" don't help much. These are not egalitarian activities - the effect on the WS and BS are radically different. Who's who matters. And who's who also matters. Yes, same words, different meaning.

From my own files:Ex1: Married 8 years. Couple agreed they got married because they had the hots for each other. Wife, over time, lost her hotness. Doubled in weight, felt sorry for herself, lost interest in being anywhere near a hot guy. Husband seemed to offer what support he could, but was clueless what was up. He traveled for a living and being a genuine hunk, women approached him and he felt the need.

Wife comes to me and says I made my husband have an affair. Many. Short, but real. I said why and she said I hate myself which is why I'm getting so fat and lazy because I don't think I can do anything right. I ask because husband thinks you mess up and she says no. After some time, it turns out it's her MOM who calls her a screw-up, so the ultimate solution is to get her past any belief that she owes her mom anything. Weight comes off, she gets energetic...and doesn't really care about husband's affairs, since it was the affairs that made her realize that she was on a suicide mission.

I like to think affairs are avoidable but in this case, they were still young and not all that tuned in to the dynamics of human neuro-psychology,so it's hard to expect husband to know what to do. Apparently, he had suggested counseling, but wife had offered disdain - "I'm not broken".

Ex 2: Ah, never mind...this one's too personal


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

goingsolo12 said:


> I never said that people should be restricted from posting on TAM on such issues, I apologize if I wasn't clear in my original post. All I did was make a humble request to experienced posters to post more, so that people can benefit from their sage advice and experience. As i mentioned in an earlier post, no doubt that solutions and sage advice can come from anywhere, so inexperienced posters with high emotional intelligence can give a very sound advice but exceptions are far and few.
> 
> I hope I made myself clear, apologies for the confusion :smile2:


Still no link to this supposed thread.

Haven't seen a thread where the majority sides with the wayward or where or post gets replies mainly from newbie posters...you may get one or two but not to such an extent it demands a post asking TAM posters to mind their posts in support of wayward. Usually when someone posts the regular posters are all over it.

Are you talking about TAM or that other site which has a waywards section?


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

It is a logical fallacy (though understandable) that experience equals expertise. It is simply not true. 

Some people lack the self awareness to actually learn anything from the experiences they have. In some cases they experience these. things because of repeated bad decisions on their part. How does this make them more qualified than others to give valid advice? I would argue that some of these people would be the WORST people to take advice from. Kind of like asking someone who has gone bankrupt for advice on money management.

Conversely, those who have not experienced infidelity must be doing something right. When I want to know how to do something, I tend to seek the example of those who succeeded as well as those who have failed. My wife has never cheated and I don't fear her doing so. I attribute that to choosing a woman with good character, investing time and effort into the marriage and setting solid boundaries to avoid bad situations. I suspect that such perspective might be useful to someone who finds him/herself on the wrong end of infidelity, as they will probably want to move forward in life eventually.

If after all this my wife did cheat, I would dump her immediately. No ifs ands or buts. That is my perspective. I cringe when I read some of the advice given here to turn the WS around, but I am not so arrogant that I can't accept that for some people it is what they want and need. To each his own. Anyone claiming to have the only path to healing is a damn liar or egomaniac. 

In the end, advice and opinion stands on its own as either useful or not - for each individual. Anyone who comes to an anonymous internet message board must expect that they will have to sift through that which works for them and discard the rest. Personally, I would rather be exposed to many points of view than receive opinions inside an echo chamber. What you regard as bad advice may be exactly what someone else needs. Take what you like and leave the rest.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

TAM ebbs and flows. It has changed much since I joined in 2012. But overall it is a much more "Tough Love" environment than, say, what you find at Marriage Builders or SI. Every forum has its own culture. Every forum attracts a unique crowd based on that culture and the way it is shaped by the moderators. I poke fun at our moderators occasionally, but compared to those other sites, our moderators are exceptionally hands-off in their approach to running the site and how they allow participants to interact. And that is the way it should be. 

I am not pro-divorce. What I am is pro-self-respect. I think that what many of us here try to drive home in our advice to BSs is that self-respect and self-value should always trump doing anything and sacrificing anything to save a marriage. If we see a BS being a doormat or being weak or not standing up for herself/himself then we call them on it and attempt to get them to see that their well-being matters as much as their marriage and family. Because even if a marriage is 'saved', it is not going to matter one bit of the betrayed spouse has had to sacrifice every ounce of self respect to stray married to an unrepentant cheater. 

Divorce is a gawdawful thing...probably one of the worst things any person can go through. No one here throws the divorce advice out there lightly... even though it may seem like we do. Most often, we can see when a BS is getting a royal hosing, and often the ONLY method they can fall back on to get their wayward spouse out of the fog and thinking rationally is to hit them hard with divorce papers and exposure. 

There are many here who want the BS to do a lot of navel gazing and self-reflection to find out where they were lacking as a spouse. Problem is, this is the type of introspection that should have been happening from wedding day, and should have been a daily practice all through marriage. But EVERYONE gets complacent. EVRYONE drops the ball in their relationships at times. When a marriage is on the rocks, and there is no infidelity, then such advice is very cogent for both partners. Both partners need to examine and readjust. 

However, when a BS has just had their world blown apart....when their once beloved trustworthy spouse has dropped an atom bomb in their lap... we cannot expect them to be receptive towards self introspection and wanting to "fix" the marriage. They are torn apart and bleeding profusely. This is the triage phase. The WS must do everything s/he can to help the spouse they betrayed stop the blood flow. This is done by voluntary exposure and admission to family and friends of their offense, by offering total transparency, by taking full responsibility for their poor choices, and by demonstrating a desire to examine themselves and to seek help and to begin the process of becoming a safe partner again. Unfortunately, so many WSs are so in the fog and defiant in these early days, any forward momentum is never gained and the couple flounder in limbo for months.

Then after triage comes weeks in I.C. Then after I.C. comes bed rest and healing through independent counseling for both partners. Then after that, two or three years down the road, when the repentant WS has done everything s/he can to find out their "whys" and find out why they allowed boundaries and morals to fail, and has worked on new methods of coping with the rigors of marriage....THEN both spouses can come together and do the work necessary to re-build the marriage, how to communicate their needs and to learn proper care and feeding of a relationship. But again...that is way down the road from D-Day. 

Unfortunately we have many inexperienced posters here who attempt to get the BS to put the cart before the mule, and to take responsibility for the state of the marriage when, during this time, they are incapable of such self-evaluation due to the shock and trauma they are going through. Its like taking a burn victim, fresh out of intensive care, to a fireworks display. They are just not ready for it.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I do believe there are a few posters on TAM TALK ABOUT MARRIAGE who have either not been married, or who are married (and in their mind, are happily married) who constantly give advice on infidelity or other serious marital issues, although they have not experienced the trauma, are not qualified counselors, but are armchair observers. It think they are just here because they are bored and have no friends in real life, and to them TAM is just a Jerry Springer situation where they can anonymously give their unqualified advice. They are basically, long term trolls.
> 
> *Real people's lives and pain is not something to take lightly. Most people are not on TAM because they want attention. They want opinions, support, etc. from people who have personal experience with the same thing they are dealing with.*
> 
> Anyone can have an opinion on politics, religion, food, etc. But IMO married people should be counseling married people about marriage issues only if they have experienced it themselves.


Yes, THIS EXACTLY. I wholeheartedly agree that people who have not experienced either side of infidelity cannot relate and cannot give useful advice. Unless you have been there, you have NO CLUE. Same holds true for other experiences and sections of the forum as well. We post here to get opinions and guidance from those who have BEEN THERE and come out the other side, whether they divorce or their marriages strengthened.


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## goingsolo12 (Mar 26, 2017)

Nrecnocymton said:


> GS12:
> 
> I realize you would like more posting done by the experienced CWI posters, but you should consider what you titled this thread. If you really meant what you're saying, perhaps something like, "Experienced CWI posters, please post more to offset inexperienced advice". Additionally, I don't know how many inexperienced posters would think of themselves as "low emotional intelligence" people.


That is a great suggestion, Thank you, can I change the name of the thread?


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## goingsolo12 (Mar 26, 2017)

DustyDog said:


> The problem with labeling - anything - is that it pigeonholes things to the point where it's applicable to nobody.
> 
> In this case, labeling any advice as "bad", means that nobody will bother reading it. And it would have been useful for somebody.
> 
> ...


 I get what you are saying, the words you use to portray your thoughts do matter


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## goingsolo12 (Mar 26, 2017)

BobSimmons said:


> Still no link to this supposed thread.
> 
> Haven't seen a thread where the majority sides with the wayward or where or post gets replies mainly from newbie posters...you may get one or two but not to such an extent it demands a post asking TAM posters to mind their posts in support of wayward. Usually when someone posts the regular posters are all over it.
> 
> Are you talking about TAM or that other site which has a waywards section?


Here is the link to the thread :-

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ion/2323-separation-about-become-reality.html
Thanks for the reminder :smile2:


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

TaDor said:


> Reminds me of a poster stating that certain actions of the WS are acceptable, even if it hurts the BS - in order to save the marriage. Huh? A couple of others and myself shut him down because he hasn't been cheated on, nor the others who had agreed with him.


Wait, WHAT? How is something that hurts the BS going to save the marriage? That is completely illogical.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

I will say that too often WS are treated like pariahs and bad people. Especially if someone comes here to tell their story and they cheated. I can appreciate anyone looking to go beyond themselves to help them become better people. 

I am such a big proponent of divorce if there was any sort of affair because it's more than just the one person being able to accept it, it's both of them being able to move past it (even if the cheater is contrite). The amount of effort put in and the likelihood of success never seems worth it to me.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Many people, every week are driven off TAM because of the input/advice given by the members here. This is something that I have been concerned about for some time now. The people who stay on TAM self-select, they stay because they are hearing what they want to hear.
> 
> New posters on TAM PM me fairly often telling me that they are leaving TAM because of the type harsh replies (I’m talking about BS’s here) that they receive on TAM. Often, they want to first try to recover their marriage but find that they are attacked and insulted for wanting to do that.


I've read threads by newbies, where some TAM veterans start giving them 2x4's straight out of the gate. No wonder they get scared off.

Someone coming here for help needs some compassion and understanding first. They are in pain and need reassurance that they are not alone. Sometimes they have no one else to turn to. If, after some time, they aren't seeing what is plainly in front of them, maybe the 2x4's need to come out. _Maybe._ But for some people, they simply need to run their course.

I use different tones on different threads, depending on how well I understand the OP and their situation. I think it helps.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Herschel said:


> I will say that too often WS are treated like pariahs and bad people. Especially if someone comes here to tell their story and they cheated. I can appreciate anyone looking to go beyond themselves to help them become better people.


My experience has been that when a wayward comes here, is honest and forthcoming, shows true remorse and contriteness (you can tell when its real), owns his/her bad decisions, admits what they did was wrong and inexcusable, doesn't blame shift onto the BS, and is committed towards making things right , the majority of TAM regulars will take that wayward under their cast-iron wings and guide and support them. 

But first they need their butts kicked a bit. They need to run the gauntlet so the TAM folks can ascertain whether or not they are for real. 

Tears and LosingHim are two very good examples of waywards who came to TAM wanting to make things right, and not being defensive or offering lame excuses or justifying their bad behavior. They took their licks but kept coming back and proved to everyone they could walk their talk. And both became valued members of TAM.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The internet is a source of a wide range of opinions from a wide range of experience. Asking questions here is only useful to people who are able and willing to filter all the data that they get. It is not a place to go to only her opinions that support ideas that you already have. 

Hearing a wide range of opinions can be very helpful - its possible you will gain some new insight - but generally you need to be willing to discard 90% of what you hear.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> New posters on TAM PM me fairly often telling me that they are leaving TAM because of the type harsh replies (I’m talking about BS’s here) that they receive on TAM. Often, they want to first try to recover their marriage but find that they are attacked and insulted for wanting to do that.


Usually these people are the ones who are acting like puppies following the WS around begging for more of the same treatment. There really is sometimes no 'nice' way to tell someone to grow a pair and stop acting like a doormat, and still get the point across. I've seen TAMmers TRY to be nice, and in the process the BS takes what they want to hear and discards the rest and thinks they're being told they should take it up the butt some more.

As for the bad advice for BS's to take part of the blame, it SHOULD be banned. It's usually destructive and harmful to a BS who just found out. This post by bandit is spot on



bandit.45 said:


> I am not pro-divorce. What I am is pro-self-respect. I think that what many of us here try to drive home in our advice to BSs is that *self-respect and self-value should always trump doing anything and sacrificing anything to save a marriage. If we see a BS being a doormat or being weak or not standing up for herself/himself then we call them on it* and attempt to get them to see that their well-being matters as much as their marriage and family. ..... Most often, we can see when a BS is getting a royal hosing, and often the ONLY method they can fall back on to get their wayward spouse out of the fog and thinking rationally is to hit them hard with divorce papers and exposure.
> 
> There are many here who want the BS to do a lot of navel gazing and self-reflection to find out where they were lacking as a spouse......... when a BS has just had their world blown apart....when their once beloved trustworthy spouse has dropped an atom bomb in their lap... we cannot expect them to be receptive towards self introspection and wanting to "fix" the marriage. ...... two or three years down the road, when the repentant WS has done everything s/he can to find out their "whys" and find out why they allowed boundaries and morals to fail, and has worked on new methods of coping with the rigors of marriage....THEN both spouses can come together and do the work necessary to re-build the marriage, how to communicate their needs and to learn proper care and feeding of a relationship. But again...*that is way down the road from D-Day*.
> 
> Unfortunately we have many inexperienced posters here who attempt to get the BS to put the cart before the mule, and to take responsibility for the state of the marriage when, during this time, they are incapable of such self-evaluation due to the shock and trauma they are going through. Its like taking a burn victim, fresh out of intensive care, to a fireworks display. They are just not ready for it.


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## rockon (May 18, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> *Tears* and LosingHim are two very good examples of waywards who came to TAM wanting to make things right, and not being defensive or offering lame excuses or justifying their bad behavior.


I wish Tears would return, I'd love to get an update but it's been well over a year since she graced TAM.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> God help me!
> 
> I had to run to the mirror....to see if my ears were burning.
> 
> ...


What the heck are you talking about (again)?

No Rhinestone Rubies here....the genuine thing, and lots of them!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> What the heck are you talking about (again)?
> 
> No Rhinestone Rubies here....the genuine thing, and lots of them!


Well!

Good Morning Dear!

Since you did not decipher my concern and hidden paranoia....I shall not run my intense light through your [held high and above] Rubies.

No laser insight to follow this post, post.. this post.

No post haste, no need...I can post agin' today.

Thanks for asking.

SCM


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

rockon said:


> I wish Tears would return, I'd love to get an update but it's been well over a year since she graced TAM.


Break out the onions.

Turn on the Disco... Rock.


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## rockon (May 18, 2016)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> What the heck are you talking about (again)?


I wish they could make a SunCMars to english translation app.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

rockon said:


> I wish they could make a SunCMars to english translation app.


I ran it through my SunC to Texan translator but what I got out of it would all be censored here...  

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

FeministInPink said:


> I've read threads by newbies, where some TAM veterans start giving them 2x4's straight out of the gate. No wonder they get scared off.
> 
> *Someone coming here for help needs some compassion and understanding first. They are in pain and need reassurance that they are not alone. Sometimes they have no one else to turn to. * If, after some time, they aren't seeing what is plainly in front of them, maybe the 2x4's need to come out. _Maybe._ But for some people, they simply need to run their course.
> 
> I use different tones on different threads, depending on how well I understand the OP and their situation. I think it helps.


If you are seeking help on an online forum, it's safe to say that you likely don't have many people you feel safe discussing the problem with in real life. I think a lot of us here at TAM can be a little overly aggressive right out of the gate, and that's not conducive for someone in that situation. I've done it. Had to apologize for it yesterday. 

I think part of the reaction so many regulars have on TAM is that this isn't their first rodeo, they've experienced it, and they've watched it unfold countless times in countless threads for others too. So they jump right to the end, when the OP is still in the beginning or middle of their story. They usually can't just jump to the last page, they have to get through it the long way. Also, sometimes you read a story that just hits your trigger points...


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

rockon said:


> I wish they could make a SunCMars to english translation app.


They do.

It is called PM on TAM.

Fear not Sunlight reflected/refracted off/through Mars.

:soapbox:


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

SunCMars said:


> They do.
> 
> It is called PM on TAM.


I keep thinking that I'd understand your posts far better if I was stoned.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

The simplest of answers are always discounted.

For example:
If one were to advise another that a WS is acting badly because that is the way they are wired. And to NOT let it bother them.
The WS cannot help but BE THEMSELVES. 

So, accept this fact and move on. Do not let their actions bother you. The WS's behavior is rarely personal with respect to you.
They are just acting out the program in their brain. It is counter to your' best interests. So, leave them and move on with your life. 

This is so accurate, but so NOT HELPFUL to empathetic, honest and good people. People who take their vows, promises and own life seriously.

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do", flies over BS's head...is not absorbed. Cannot be accepted by most humans. 

Just sayin'

In plain English...for a change!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> I keep thinking that I'd understand your posts far better if I was stoned.


Some women are stoned for their actions and beliefs.

On TAM...some posters get Stone-walled. 

I bring a ladder.....or I lower my thick skull and break through to the other side. >


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

I for one am very grateful for the advice that I've gotten here. 
My story is years long and very bizarre at times.
I also see the need for professional counseling as I have done MC and currently seeing one for myself.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

rockon said:


> I wish Tears would return, I'd love to get an update but it's been well over a year since she graced TAM.


Well no news is good news. My hope is her ex-husband and her are back together and reconciled.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

rockon said:


> I wish they could make a SunCMars to english translation app.


SunCMars is kind of the James Joyce of TAM. :|


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Kivlor said:


> If you are seeking help on an online forum, it's safe to say that you likely don't have many people you feel safe discussing the problem with in real life. I think a lot of us here at TAM can be a little overly aggressive right out of the gate, and that's not conducive for someone in that situation. I've done it. Had to apologize for it yesterday.
> 
> I think part of the reaction so many regulars have on TAM is that this isn't their first rodeo, they've experienced it, and they've watched it unfold countless times in countless threads for others too. So they jump right to the end, when the OP is still in the beginning or middle of their story. They usually can't just jump to the last page, they have to get through it the long way. Also, sometimes you read a story that just hits your trigger points...


Exactly! They're still going through their process.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

goingsolo12 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I read a thread on TAM from a long time ago (I won't mention the details, that thread is a part of the private section).
> 
> ...


I agree, there is NO excuse for cheating, and the cheated on spouse will take years to recover from it.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Kivlor said:


> If you are seeking help on an online forum, it's safe to say that you likely don't have many people you feel safe discussing the problem with in real life. I think a lot of us here at TAM can be a little overly aggressive right out of the gate, and that's not conducive for someone in that situation. I've done it. Had to apologize for it yesterday.
> 
> I think part of the reaction so many regulars have on TAM is that this isn't their first rodeo, they've experienced it, and they've watched it unfold countless times in countless threads for others too. So they jump right to the end, when the OP is still in the beginning or middle of their story. They usually can't just jump to the last page, they have to get through it the long way. Also, sometimes you read a story that just hits your trigger points...


Exactly! They're still going through their process.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

I imagine that there are quite a few posters on CWI that,though they haven't experienced marital infidelity,still have experienced the fallout from it. It's pretty prevalent in our society. They have something to say in my opinion.

Never been really moved by harsh posts or the piling on at times. The tone invalidates the message to most first time posters in my opinion. Why would someone in pain and confusion be receptive?

Still,I see some really good even-handed posters on here both old and new. I've been able to better understand so much more about life in general because of them.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

As in life, there are opinions and informed opinions, the former are for entertainment and the latter are for consideration. Then again, if someone is going to post their intimate problems in a public forum where everyone hides behind an alias, they are going to get what they pay for. It goes both ways. Also keep in mind that many post are not real and we are only getting one side of the story. I am sure that the other spouse also can make a compelling case for his/her side of the story. Getting advice from people who do not have to live with the consequences will be iffy. I see this place as more for getting it off your chest. Blowing off steam. Getting sympathy and support. Writing about it often helps in some way. I try to reply to posts that are about things that I experienced, but those replies, like everyone else's is going to be very subjective because we all experience things in different ways. I do not expect anyone to act on what I post, but I hope I can at least get them thinking if only from a non traditional point of view.

Today I was watching the TV show Cheaters, where investigators catch spouses cheating and then film the confrontation with the non cheating spouse. In one episode the wife catches her husband and his girl partner, naked in back of his SUV. She is hitting both of them and the other woman runs away naked with her clothes in her hand. The wife goes after her and the other woman is asking her why she is making a big deal about it since her husband knows where she is and what she is doing and it is no big deal. She also said that she assumed that the cheating husband was like her husband and was free to have outside girlfriends. Afterwards she called her hubby to tell him that she is going to be on the TV show and explained why happened while laughing. To her it was much ado about nothing. Then she told her husband that she is on the way home and she love's him. To her, having sex outside of the marriage was no big deal, so if asked, her advice is going to be much different than others. You cannot blame her for posting her point of view because posters ask for opinions, they are not forced upon them.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

rockon said:


> I wish they could make a SunCMars to english translation app.


sorry, but you can't translate the ramblings of this ones wandering mind...JMNSHO.

You just gotta accept that we got him and there is only ONE like him...Thank God that mold was broken! :wink2:


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## calmwinds (Dec 10, 2012)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the point the OP is trying to get across is this: All of us, at one time or another, were un-cheated-upon/un-cheaters. At that time, we all had a completely different perspective as to what we may or may not tolerate from a life partner. Personally, before my lifequake, anyone seeking advice from me would have been absolutely 100% throw the bum out, start over clean and get a new man! Now...depends. Sometimes I would still say throw the bum out. However, my personal WH owned his sh*t and is so much more of a husband now than he ever tried to be (when I thought he hung the moon). No, it doesn't change what he did or the work we both did to get to where we are now. 
I agree people should not throw their hats into the ring if they haven't walked through the fire themselves. Yes, they know the coals are hot, but they've never been scorched.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

I think it's important to make a distinction regarding the type of advice being given. 

Someone who has never been a victim of infidelity will have great difficulty relating, so probably should refrain from giving advice on how to deal with these feelings. We may all think we know how we would feel/react, but infidelity is probably one of those things you can't really know until you've been there. 

However, with regard to other, non-feeling based responses, others may have helpful input. The most obvious example is someone who is actually a practicing family law attorney (solicitor). That person need not be divorced to offer good advice on how to respond to infidelity from a legal point of view. Security and cyber experts can lend advice on if/how to investigate suspected infidelity and how to react to each piece of information gained or not gained. 

My Dad's first wife cheated on him. My older half-brother who emerged from that union was cheated on by both of his wives. My wife's mom cheated on her dad and her brother's wife cheated on him. Many of us have close friends who have been on the losing end of such affairs. My wife and I have witnessed more of this than anybody should ever see, In doing so we have learned a lot, and have done so free of the intensity of emotion that comes from being the victim, so there are some aspects of the event we can see more clearly. I would never presume to advise someone how to handle their feelings, but I may be able to assist in other ways.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> Someone who has never been a victim of infidelity will have great difficulty relating, so probably should refrain from giving advice on how to deal with these feelings. We may all think we know how we would feel/react, but infidelity is probably one of those things you can't really know until you've been there.


This is what I encountered in real life when I was trying to make sense of OSFs and what they should look like among married people.

A couple of my married female friends would simply say "my husband doesn't have any female friends." 

Well, after awhile, I think I know why. It's too bad they did not let me in on their little secret.


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## ILoveSparkles (Oct 28, 2013)

goingsolo12 said:


> Here is the link to the thread :-
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ion/2323-separation-about-become-reality.html
> Thanks for the reminder :smile2:


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## goingsolo12 (Mar 26, 2017)

calmwinds said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but the point the OP is trying to get across is this: All of us, at one time or another, were un-cheated-upon/un-cheaters. At that time, we all had a completely different perspective as to what we may or may not tolerate from a life partner. Personally, before my lifequake, anyone seeking advice from me would have been absolutely 100% throw the bum out, start over clean and get a new man! Now...depends. Sometimes I would still say throw the bum out. However, my personal WH owned his sh*t and is so much more of a husband now than he ever tried to be (when I thought he hung the moon). No, it doesn't change what he did or the work we both did to get to where we are now.
> I agree people should not throw their hats into the ring if they haven't walked through the fire themselves. Yes, they know the coals are hot, but they've never been scorched.


Exactly, let me quote an example, can a physician who has never had any experience with surgery advise a doctor on how to take care of blocked arteries through surgery? I really don't think so. The concept I am trying to put forward in this thread applies to everyday life too, now a doctor who is not a heart specialist won't try to perform a diagnosis on you, he would direct you to someone who has experience with human hearts- a heart specialist. He won't try to form a diagnosis just because HE THINKS he has the right answer to it. He has zero experience with it therefore he would direct you to a doctor who actually has experience with your ailments.

Your experience matters, the more experienced you are in professional life the more your industry pays you. There are many things you learn through experience and by actually working rather than just by observing others or by reading a few books on how to do it. Everyone's opinions are welcome but in most cases people who actually have experience are the ones offering gold nuggets.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Here are my favorites:

1. Don't worry about that super-close opposite sex friend, this is the 21st century after all.
2. Never violate your spouse's privacy, even if always on phone, out late, and acting strangely.
3. It was just an EA.
4. It was just some sexting fun, nothing else.
5. It is perfectly natural to shave/manscape before a vacation with the girls/guys, (and bring lingerie/sexy clothes)
6. It is acceptable to text an opposite sex co-worker 100+ times a day.
7. We just kissed once.
8. We just made out once.
9. We almost had sex, but did not.
10. We had sex once, but it met nothing.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

There's also:

"I don't really like her all that much."


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Oh, and dont forget (in reference to other sex "friends"):

- You dont trust me! 
- You're just trying to control me!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

There is a profound difference between the type of training that a doctor goes through for their specialty and what a person experiences in their personal life when their spouse cheats.

A more correct analogy would be to say that a doctor cannot possibly perform heart surgery until they have themselves suffered through heart surgery. 

When a person experiences infidelity in their own marriage, they have an experience level of one. All they know is what happened in their own relationship. What knowledge of their own relationship outcome has bearing to only some subset of people who have experienced infidelity.

For example, here on TAM, the majority of those who are BS push, and I do mean push, for anyone who comes here after infidelity to just divorce and move on. Anyone who talks about wanting to reconcile is told that he’s a wimp, he needs to man up, and on and on with the insults. And so the posters who want to try to reconsider usually leave TAM very quickly. What is happening is that the posters on TAM seem to trigger and push others to have eh exact same outcome that they had. That’s not good advice. That’s justifying one’s own life choices.

There seems to be a culture on TAM that nothing sort of ending the marriage is acceptable when there is infidelity. 

There are some here who give good input/advice. But some of the worst advice I’ve seen given to a person who suspects infidelity or knows that here is infidelity has come from people who experienced infidelity in their own lives.

I just hope that TAM posters do not take your point of view to heart because it is certainly not the point of view that is held by the folks who run TAM.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

goingsolo12 said:


> Here is the link to the thread :-
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ion/2323-separation-about-become-reality.html
> Thanks for the reminder :smile2:


Wowzers.

Talk about an inflated sense of entitlement.

Hopefully that guy wised up and kicked his WW to the curb.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I did read somewhere else online that marriage counselor changed completely his methods once he became the BS in his own marriage.

If I ever needed a marriage counselor, I would prefer one who was the B side of infidelity. But how would one know this? Some may pick up this need and say whatever you want to hear.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

NextTimeAround said:


> I did read somewhere else online that marriage counselor changed completely his methods once he became the BS in his own marriage.
> 
> If I ever needed a marriage counselor, I would prefer one who was the B side of infidelity. But how would one know this? Some may pick up this need and say whatever you want to hear.


If I needed MC, I would aim for a counselor who's union was strong; one who had successfully staved off infidelity. 

Unless I was already in B status in which case I'd more likely be visiting a lawyer than a marriage counselor. If you're in B status you're already late to need for MC.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

If I were looking for a counselor, I would look for a wise person, period.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

jld said:


> If I were looking for a counselor, I would look for a wise person, period.


Define "wise."

Even the last therapist I went to, I got annoyed because, of course, I am looking for her opinion, that's what I am paying her for. Whenever I asked follow up questions to "her opinion", I had to remind her that we're not friends, I am paying for this hour.

Where do therapists get off on this belief that they don't need to explain themselves.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> Define "wise."
> 
> Even the last therapist I went to, I got annoyed because, of course, I am looking for her opinion, that's what I am paying her for. Whenever I asked follow up questions to "her opinion", I had to remind her that we're not friends, I am paying for this hour.
> 
> Where do therapists get off on this belief that they don't need to explain themselves.


I would just feel it, I think. 

Am I inspired by him or her? Am I hearing a perspective I had perhaps not considered, but makes sense, widens my vision?

Basically, am I hearing Truth, however unconventional or disconcerting it may initially be?

I do not want my world to be more limited by a "counselor." I want it to be expanded.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

My experience is that most therapists default at "he / she didn't mean it. I'm sure that they were just having a bad day."

What a way to subtly suggest that the patient is selfish and demanding all the while excusing other people who are walking all over him / her.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> My experience is that most therapists default at "he / she didn't mean it. I'm sure that they were just having a bad day."
> 
> What a way to subtly suggest that the patient is selfish and demanding all the while excusing other people who are walking all over him / her.


I think they do that when they sense their client has control issues, but is not ready to address them. They are introducing the idea of backing off, and allowing space.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

jld said:


> I think they do that when they sense their client has control issues, but is not ready to address them. They are introducing the idea of backing off, and allowing space.



I was asking why are people so rude to me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> I was asking why are people so rude to me.


Do you not think my response fits?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

jld said:


> Do you not think my response fits?


No, I don't.

Do you feel that when you are polite to someone that they are controlling you?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> No, I don't.
> 
> Do you feel that when you are polite to someone that they are controlling you?


Sorry, not following your reasoning here.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

jld said:


> Sorry, not following your reasoning here.


I don't understand what you mean.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

I view the advice given here the same way I view analyzing baseball. There are two mindsets to baseball analysis: statistics and your eyes. Obviously you can combine the two. Now, statistics are statistics. They don't have bias (if you have vetted them properly) and they just give you the data of what has happened. Your eyes have a bias. They can deceive you and they can be influenced more easily.

TAM doesn't know anything about you, TAM just knows how your situation correlates to the data of so many other situations. It goes off the data. It's not always right, but it is refined enough to even cover many outlying cases.

Marriage counselors go off of their eyes. Their gut feel. They see you talking and since it's in person, they develop biases. The human factor plays much more of a role in MC than it does with the impersonal TAM. Up to you to decide which is better.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> SunCMars is kind of the James Joyce of TAM. :|


Or John Newton before he came to Jesus, for those who know his history. He loved to make fun and use word plays.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

goingsolo12 said:


> *My request is to the wise people of TAM- people who unfortunately have experienced this hell called infidelity and have come out stronger need to post more on the private and other sections*. Your sage advice is needed. Don't let punks who have no experience ruin lives just because they want to comment on a thread because they find it interesting.
> 
> Just my humble request
> 
> Thankyou


Anyone can access the Private section, once their posts reach the minimum required. Actually the minimum post count can be a problem for a new person who has a real issue, and whose spouse may be stalking them on the internet, or who may be embarrassed to post because of fear of being recognized. However it is easy to get the post count up fairly quickly so they can post in private, and that applies to any person with a new account.

Most of the people giving inexperienced advice, making fun, slamming, having an agenda, etc. have racked up their post numbers and have access to the Private section.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Anyone can access the Private section, once their posts reach the minimum required. Actually the minimum post count can be a problem for a new person who has a real issue, and whose spouse may be stalking them on the internet, or who may be embarrassed to post because of fear of being recognized. However it is easy to get the post count up fairly quickly so they can post in private, and that applies to any person with a new account.
> 
> Most of the people giving inexperienced advice, making fun, slamming, having an agenda, etc. have racked up their post numbers and have access to the Private section.



At least, though, the posts in the private section are not picked up by the search engines.


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## goingsolo12 (Mar 26, 2017)

GusPolinski said:


> Wowzers.
> 
> Talk about an inflated sense of entitlement.
> 
> Hopefully that guy wised up and kicked his WW to the curb.


The last thing I read was that they had reconciled, the BS rug swept it all. He was your typical 'Nice guy'.


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## goingsolo12 (Mar 26, 2017)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Anyone can access the Private section, once their posts reach the minimum required. Actually the minimum post count can be a problem for a new person who has a real issue, and whose spouse may be stalking them on the internet, or who may be embarrassed to post because of fear of being recognized. However it is easy to get the post count up fairly quickly so they can post in private, and that applies to any person with a new account.
> 
> Most of the people giving inexperienced advice, making fun, slamming, having an agenda, etc. have racked up their post numbers and have access to the Private section.


That is why people who have the unfortunate experience of experiencing infidelity on TAM should post more so that proper guidance is available to people who really need it


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

goingsolo12 said:


> The last thing I read was that they had reconciled, the BS rug swept it all. He was your typical 'Nice guy'.


Sad.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

VladDracul said:


> Here's my perspective:
> 
> 1. Just because you don't like the advise doesn't make it bad.


However, bad advice does exist.

All advice is not equal and that is the largest difficulty with topic & purpose specific "discussion" forums open to anyone with a computer.

Any particular "original poster" on an open forum is stuck with the responses and advice {bad, good, nice, tough, wayward as heck, vulgar or unkind} received from whatever members happen to be online, reading and willing to participate at that moment in time. 

Asking moderation to grade or evaluate all such 'advice"|posts as they arrive is a monumental or, really, impossible task in an anonymous open discussion environment. Forum administers|owners and moderators can shape the overall demeanor and decorum of a forum by how they interpret and enforce forum rules and regulations; but, unless the forum is completely moderated post by post, are still subject to drive by's, sock puppets, jerks, demons, waywards and over emotional posters that they can't ever completely control in a preemptive or predictive manner {they can only react in hindsight to violations, hoping any public rebuke forces the other "adults" to self-moderate or leave thereafter}. 

Since I am not a moderator or in any way charged with the administration, interpretation and enforcement of the rules here {thankfully ~ it's a thankless job}, I'm left merely with pointing out the purpose of this sub-forum as written by the former owner of the website and still pinned to the top of this forum:



Chris H. said:


> The Coping With Infidelity forum is an area for both betrayed *and* wayward spouses to post about, and discuss the circumstances and very powerful emotions surrounding infidelity.
> 
> For those that choose to participate in or contribute to these discussions, it is very important to be aware of your own circumstances in relation to, or how they differ from others.
> 
> ...





TAM FORUM RULES said:


> ...
> 8. *Be* *supportive* of others and *their* desire to have happier, healthier relationships.
> .....


So while it might be really really hard for any {sometimes changing} moderation staff to consistently ascertain which advice is bad, good, nice, wayward, too tough, not tough enough or unkind in every situation, while still allowing "open" discussion, it often, over time becomes very obvious which posters and posts, generally, are not supportive of the sub-forums purpose ~ which appears to me to be, for "those that choose to participate", to actually BE SUPPORTIVE of those choosing to make that {often, recovery} effort and THEIR desire to have a happy, healthier relationship.

I am in no way suggesting divorce and discussions regarding divorce after infidelity are inconsistent with this general purpose. It's clearly "supportive" to tell a newly betrayed spouse that divorce, is, in the posters opinion, the best alternative for that particular situation. Especially when there are no children, the marriage isn't that old and the persons are young. However, the undermining, repetitive, passive aggressive, offensive, anti-reconciliation agenda posts that disproportionately celebrate divorce, attack betrayed insecurities {real and imagines}, killing hope and denying recovery even exists especially when promoted by persons that haven't experienced it, is flat out demon-like; and, IMO, could be stopped without taking away from the openness of the forum one bit. 

I suppose the question is ~ does TAM want to promote talk and talk and talk along with argue, bicker and debate about marriage or do you want this forum to actually be more helpful, honest and true to its stated purpose?

What matters more ~ traffic or content? Both matter but finding the balance can be a full time job and I'm glad I don't have to do it.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> There is a profound difference between the type of training that a doctor goes through for their specialty and what a person experiences in their personal life when their spouse cheats.
> 
> A more correct analogy would be to say that a doctor cannot possibly perform heart surgery until they have themselves suffered through heart surgery.
> 
> ...


EXACTLY.

However, it can get scary to me when moderation begins to ponder measuring what's good advice and what's not simply because someday a guy like William at Loveshack will end up getting invited to moderate {they will either sneak in because everyone thinks they're so nice or somehow someone gets the notion that the moderation team needs to add the wayward perspective to balance it} and it all goes extremely bad because there's nothing a reprobate wayward hate more than TRUTH and righteous judgment so slowly but surely everything become "bad advice" and your initial intent to somewhat control content to be more helpful is manipulated to mean all content must also be extremely nice when infidelity {when handled correctly} is certainly not a "nice" subject. 

Always a learning on the fly process ~ just like any and all relationships.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I do believe there are a few posters on TAM TALK ABOUT MARRIAGE who have either not been married, or who are married (and in their mind, are happily married) who constantly give advice on infidelity or other serious marital issues, although they have not experienced the trauma, are not qualified counselors, but are armchair observers. It think they are just here because they are bored and have no friends in real life, and to them TAM is just a Jerry Springer situation where they can anonymously give their unqualified advice. They are basically, *long term trolls.*
> 
> Real people's lives and pain is not something to take lightly. Most people are not on TAM because they want attention. They want opinions, support, etc. from people who have personal experience with the same thing they are dealing with.
> 
> Anyone can have an opinion on politics, religion, food, etc. But IMO married people should be counseling married people about marriage issues only if they have experienced it themselves.


Now where am I going to find an avatar for that one??


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> Now where am I going to find an avatar for that one??


Your "Puppet Troll" avatar is not representative of you, Mr. Nail, but it is very funny!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> When a person experiences infidelity in their own marriage, they have an experience level of one. All they know is what happened in their own relationship. What knowledge of their own relationship outcome has bearing to only some subset of people who have experienced infidelity.


This is true. When I came to TAM, however, there was more variety of perspective. You could talk to others and gather ideas. In many cases couples who were dealing with this, so you got both sides (B1 and EI, Dig and Regret, the Matthiases). You could see the similarities, but also the differences. You could gather ideas.



EleGirl said:


> For example, here on TAM, the majority of those who are BS push, and I do mean push, for anyone who comes here after infidelity to just divorce and move on. Anyone who talks about wanting to reconcile is told that he’s a wimp, he needs to man up, and on and on with the insults. And so the posters who want to try to reconsider usually leave TAM very quickly. What is happening is that the posters on TAM seem to trigger and push others to have eh exact same outcome that they had. That’s not good advice. That’s justifying one’s own life choices.
> 
> There seems to be a culture on TAM that nothing sort of ending the marriage is acceptable when there is infidelity.


The point of view was always there. For some reason it just became dominant.


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

Quality said:


> it can get scary to me when moderation begins to ponder measuring what's good advice and what's not simply because someday a guy like William at Loveshack will end up getting invited to moderate


That is a very legitimate fear to have. The thought of LS William here makes the bile in my gullet rise.

I think it's on us as users to separate the wheat from the chaff. As long as a poster is abiding by the terms and conditions, let them post. Even if their advice is absolutely horrible.

All advice should be able to stand up to scrutiny.

I've been a long time lurker, and I can think of one particular poster whose posts consistently make me cringe. But I would never silence this individual. They abide by the terms and conditions. And I honestly think they mean well, in spite of what I perceive to be bad advice on their part.

Everyone who follows the rules should be allowed to state their opinion.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

musicftw07 said:


> That is a very legitimate fear to have. The thought of LS William here makes the bile in my gullet rise.
> 
> I think it's on us as users to separate the wheat from the chaff. As long as a poster is abiding by the terms and conditions, let them post. Even if their advice is absolutely horrible.
> 
> ...


I believe that this is my stated point view. I know it's the rule that all of the current mods follow.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> All advice should be able to stand up to scrutiny.


Whenever someone becomes annoyed at follow up questions, I assume that they like to hear themselves talk more than they really want to help.


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> I believe that this is my stated point view. I know it's the rule that all of the current mods follow.


It is. In fact, I highly approve of the moderation style here at TAM. My post wasn't an attempt to say that you guys don't follow it; rather, it was an attempt to say we shouldn't silence those whose only fault is that they may give "bad advice".

You mods do a good job.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I don't agree that all the "betrayed spouses" are all out for spouses that are in marriages where infidelity occurs should divorce.

I do believe that if it's obvious that the wS is a serial cheater, or a cheater who has totally lost love for their spouse, or a cheater who is remorseless---(the vast majority of cheaters)---then the only option for lasting happiness is to divorce.

There's lots and lots of people, men and women, who are clinging to the hope that their spouse who cheated or is cheating, still loves then deep down and will eventually come out of their cheating state of mind and remember the love they had.
The cheating spouses who get caught and want to continue being married only for selfish reasons, abuse their spouses by taking full advantage of the love their loyal spouse still has for them.

It's said that each case is different, etc.
I agree to an extent, but if each case is do different, why do the cheaters almost invariably lie, say the same stuff almost word for word, do the sane things, blameshift, and use their loyal spouses feelings against them in the worst way?

If I read of a case where the cheater is remorseful, is trying heir best to change into a better spouse, and didn't show clear signs of being a serial cheater/-- I call it as I see it. I say give them a chance if that's what the OP wants.

Just because i advise a spouse to file for divorce, doesn't mean that 
I want them to divorce. It's just that I'm certain that a show of strength and lack of willingness to tolerate the cheating is the only way that a loyal spouse has a chance to truly reconcile and have a spouse that respects and loves them again.

I will admit that probably 95% of the time, I think it's best to divorce a cheater. And I think most of the time, it's obvious after a few posts, whether or not the OP should attempt reconciliation at all.

Suggesting that a loyal spouse stay in a marriage with a cheater is in most cases going to cause the person untild misery of epic proportions. I don't like to see people suffer. I know how it feels.

I have not seen a case where I regretted telling a person to file for divorce after they discovered their spouse was repeatedly cheating.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

FeministInPink said:


> Wait, WHAT? How is something that hurts the BS going to save the marriage? That is completely illogical.


Yep. The discussion was: Wayward continues to work with AP in order to keep bringing in an income. Because losing home, amount of income, etc would lead to divorce. That the BS would have to just trust the WS to not restart or continue the affair.

*sigh* anyone here and experts knows that interactions between the two APs doesn't end the affair.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

TaDor said:


> Yep. The discussion was: Wayward continues to work with AP in order to keep bringing in an income. Because losing home, amount of income, etc would lead to divorce. That the BS would have to just trust the WS to not restart or continue the affair.
> 
> *sigh* anyone here and experts know that interactions between AP doesn't end the affair.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By goingsolo12*
> Everyone's opinions are welcome but in most cases people who actually have experience are the ones offering gold nuggets.


I fell somewhat the same way but let me add to the word “Experience”

Experience people can be:

1	Those that are experienced professionals in counseling and have been successful in many cases. By success I mean that the persons that he counsels have a better or good life after following the counseling

2	Those posters on TAM that have experienced infidelity and now have divorced and have a better or good life for YEARS. A minimum of 5+ years and 10-20 years even better.


3	Those posters that have experienced infidelity and now have a better life or a good life after working R for YEARS. A minimum of 5+ years and 10-20 years even better.

There probably are others but these three above are the ones that grab my attention the most.

I am not saying that those that have less than 5 years’ experience do not have anything to add; it is that generally some of them are affected by emotions more than real life experience and what is best in the long term.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Originally Posted by EleGirl *
> For example, here on TAM, the majority of those who are BS push, and I do mean push, for anyone who comes here after infidelity to just divorce and move on. Anyone who talks about wanting to reconcile is told that he’s a wimp, he needs to man up, and on and on with the insults.



I think that Elegirl is correct. However, I would like to see an added section on TAM that has BSs that has had successful Rs for a long time; at least 5+ years. That would be a counter to the majority that push for divorce and hurl insults. In addition, how about an added section for those that have divorced and have a good life and have at, least 5+ years after Divorce?

How about a section that has professionals that deal with infidelity? Do we have any?

*Elegirl, do we know how many have more than 5+ years of R and have a good life?...Do we know how many have had a divorce and have a good life for at least 5+ years?*

My guess is that many of those that post here on TAM want to know what steps were taken to have a successful R or D.


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## smi11ie (Apr 21, 2016)

The majority of posters here have some experience of infidelity, that's why they found this place. I am fairly new to this site and my experience was not as traumatic as some due to the brevity of my relationship which resulted in abortion. I am very aware that my experience is not similar to many of the posters who are (were) in long-term relationships with children involved. This place has helped me immeasurably and I am very grateful to everyone for that. Just take what you need and leave the rest, but I feel most people post with the best of intentions.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

IMHO, I think 1yr / 5yr / 10yr / 20+yr would be important points in success in ANY marriage and R.

To me, I know that (R) is successful when our son is 18+ years old and I am still with my WW. 15 years from now.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> To me, I know that (R) is successful when our son is 18+ years old and I am still with my WW. 15 years from now


15 years is a very good time frame to measure success...1 year not dependable...JMHO


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr Blunt said:


> I think that Elegirl is correct. However, I would like to see an added section on TAM that has BSs that has had successful Rs for a long time; at least 5+ years. That would be a counter to the majority that push for divorce and hurl insults. In addition, how about an added section for those that have divorced and have a good life and have at, least 5+ years after Divorce?
> 
> How about a section that has professionals that deal with infidelity? Do we have any?
> 
> ...



We have two forums for those topics...

Reconciliation - Talk About Marriage

Life After Divorce - Talk About Marriage


Few people use them. I think that people who successfully recover or who are divorced and happy with that decision don't usually go in search for forums like TAM. And those who post on TAM and then end up in a good place in reconciliation or divorce leave TAM. So what we have mostly are people either in the middle of a crisis or people who came here in a crisis are not really happy with their lives own situation long term.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By elegirl*
> We have two forums for those topics...
> 
> Reconciliation - Talk About Marriage
> ...


Do you have to have 5+ years of success in reconciliation or divorce to post advice in those forums?


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> We have two forums for those topics...
> 
> Reconciliation - Talk About Marriage
> 
> ...


I've stayed here post-divorce, even though I'm in a good place, because I like the discussion. But you're right, many friends I've made on TAM disappeared after they made it through the worst part of their divorce and/or post-divorce life. This makes me a little sad, because I would like to know how they are doing.

But I can understand their desire not to post anymore. They have moved on, and TAM represents a dark point in their life, and people don't want to be reminded. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

TaDor said:


> Yep. The discussion was: Wayward continues to work with AP in order to keep bringing in an income. Because losing home, amount of income, etc would lead to divorce. That the BS would have to just trust the WS to not restart or continue the affair.
> 
> *sigh* anyone here and experts knows that interactions between the two APs doesn't end the affair.


Uh, then you get a new job. The affair is what will lead to divorce, not decreased income. This is magical thinking at its finest.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Mr Blunt said:


> 15 years is a very good time frame to measure success...1 year not dependable...JMHO


My reference of 1 year is a milestone... not the final score, whatever. Vs. (R) failing in weeks or months.

Have to start somewhere. No year 15, without year 1, right?

To get to year 1, is progress. 5 years, more so... and so yea, 15+ years and NO animosity would be called a success.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr Blunt said:


> Do you have to have 5+ years of success in reconciliation or divorce to post advice in those forums?


No because we have no way of vetting people. Anyone can claim anything when posting on an open forum like TAM.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

An interesting post. I thought for a few days before responding.



Evinrude58 said:


> It's said that each case is different, etc.
> I agree to an extent, but if each case is do different, why do the cheaters almost invariably lie, say the same stuff almost word for word, do the sane things, blameshift, and use their loyal spouses feelings against them in the worst way?


There are similarities and differences. For example, the tendency to lie and minimise is pretty universal. It happens on cheating but it happens in lots of other situations. Have you ever tried to talk your way out of trouble? Is there anyone reading this who hasn't? But to some people it's effortless and they feel no guilt. Others really suffer from it. For some the behaviour during the affair represents exactly "who they are". For others it's out of character. That distinction matters. The behaviour is never right, but it is not always typical.



Evinrude58 said:


> Just because i advise a spouse to file for divorce, doesn't mean that
> I want them to divorce. It's just that I'm certain that a show of strength and lack of willingness to tolerate the cheating is the only way that a loyal spouse has a chance to truly reconcile and have a spouse that respects and loves them again.


I first became aware of my wife's affair in July. It was November before she agreed to cut contact with her affair partner, and I know they saw each other again and were in a position to spend the night together the following February. Had I been on TAM back then I would probably have been told I needed to grow a pair, etc etc. that was more than a quarter century ago. We rebuilt and we are still together. Had I drawn the hard line, we may well not be.

I agree about the notion of strength but there are different ways to show it.



Evinrude58 said:


> I will admit that probably 95% of the time, I think it's best to divorce a cheater. And I think most of the time, it's obvious after a few posts, whether or not the OP should attempt reconciliation at all.


Again..a few posts from me in July.....wife lying to me, seeing her lover three times a week, veiled threats of violence against me from the crowd she was heading out with if I made issues about her affair....would you have said I had any hope of reconciliation? What would you have advised in July? When the affair was ongoing in August? September? And so on.



Evinrude58 said:


> Suggesting that a loyal spouse stay in a marriage with a cheater is in most cases going to cause the person untild misery of epic proportions. I don't like to see people suffer. I know how it feels.


Absolutely, but there's also a lot of pain in divorce. It's a very personal decision. Fwiw, I wouldn't wish the pain of this on anyone, but I came out of it a much stronger person than I went in.

Side comment, there are all sorts of views on marriage, how committed one should be to it, when divorce is permissible, etc. a fundamental starting point for me was to be there for me kids. I believed if at all possible I needed to preserve the marriage for that reason. I made it. When the kids were gone, I had the freedom to leave, and I have stayed. Not everyone believes you should stay for the kids. That's ok, but I do. 

So, what's the take home? Everything you say is a reasonable position, but a lot of it didn't apply in my case. I firmly believed TAM would have accused me of being spineless. I can point you to threads where that exact message is being conveyed right now. I have no issue with any of the points you have made, provided you don't assume that everyone who doesn't take that advice is (a) lacking balls or (b) rugsweeping.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I first became aware of my wife's affair in July. It was November before she agreed to cut contact with her affair partner, and I know they saw each other again and were in a position to spend the night together the following February. Had I been on TAM back then I would probably have been told I needed to grow a pair, etc etc. that was more than a quarter century ago. We rebuilt and we are still together. Had I drawn the hard line, we may well not be.


Interesting Wazza. We we don't hear many R stories like yours. It's sure something that defies the conventional advice given here. I think that's a good thing; in helping us realize to be careful about handing out "absolutes" to BS's. Good for you.

I do have a couple of questions for you. Would you have done anything different in the way you handled things? Any lingering regrets?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

badmemory said:


> Interesting Wazza. We we don't hear many R stories like yours. It's sure something that defies the conventional advice given here. I think that's a good thing; in helping us realize to be careful about handing out "absolutes" to BS's. Good for you.
> 
> I do have a couple of questions for you. Would you have done anything different in the way you handled things? Any lingering regrets?


No regrets in the sense of "if only I had done such and such". I think my expectations of marriage were less realistic than they are now, but you can't put an old head on young shoulders.

I know you don't get many stories like mine on TAM. I think in part that's because TAM drives people like younger me away. If I had been in the throes of coping with things, no way could I have stood this place. As it happens I was many years out when I joined TAM, and I was filling in blanks in my understanding. I was a bit more emotionally resilient. 

There is an element of luck about all this too. It worked out for me, and for others I know, but some people didn't make it. Sad but that is how it is. Marriage is a risk.


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