# Are there certain situations where sex should almost be expected?



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

This is assuming you and your partner are of course feeling well and all of that.

Last night, me and the fiancee were at home, alone. To put this in context, we have four boys who live at home, the oldest being 16, youngest five. We also had our daughter, 20, recently stay with us for a month after she moved out of her apartment before moving to another city. To say we rarely have the house to ourselves is an understatement. I'd say we are truly 'alone' in the house maybe 3-5 times a year.

So naturally, with an entire evening to ourselves, I figure this would be a good time to have sex. I knew we'd have the house to ourselves a few days earlier, so I had mentioned the idea of doing something different sexually to her a few days prior, and was personally rather stoked up because I was thinking about it off and on all day.

In the end, she elected to have a nap, then we went grocery shopping and after that she elected it was more enjoyable to sit and watch TV rather than take advantage of having a house to ourselves, and rebuffed my efforts to make a go of it.

While I never 'demand' sex, to me a situation like that, due to its rarity, seems to almost beg that sex should be an option. It'll likely be months before we have the house alone to ourselves again (or longer, who knows). 

Do you think there are times like this where sex should almost be expected?


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

I've had situations like yours. Our kids were always with us, but happened to be at the aunt's once, yet my x wife chose to work a new holiday puzzle she bought.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

king,

While I think the word demand is pretty strong, I do agree with your reasoning.

I also feel your pain because I have been in this situation many times.

I'm really not sure what you can do except maybe talk to her and say something along the lines of "Honey, I was a little upset the other day that when we had the house to ourselves, you choose to have a nap rather than spend some intimate time with me. Can you tell me why?"

In her defense, she may have geniely been tired and the quiet time was a welcome relief.

However, after her nap, she should have been ready to go (IMO)


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> Do you think there are times like this where sex should almost be expected?


I would say it depends on the couple. But yes. If the couple has talked about what would help their sex life in advance and everything that was said and more has been done, then there would be an expectation.

For example, if a man picks his wife up from work on a Friday, takes her to a nice restaurant for a relaxing evening and instead of going home, they go to a hotel room because this is exactly the kind of spontaneous thing the wife said she needed, then the expectation would be pretty clear.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Certain times sex is expected ...

Birthdays
Anniversary
Vacation

Also, times like you describe but for my wife it would depend on frequency. If we just had sex the day or two before, then she could opt for the nap. If it had been a few days, I think we would both be looking forward to sex in an empty house where we don't need to worry about kids hearing us.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I don't like the word 'expect' but I hate the word 'rebuffed' even more.

It took me years to get to get here but we have a general rule of NOT turning the other down for sex (I'm the higher drive spouse). I'm more reasonable in my requests and he's more willing to cooperate. Win/win.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Toffer said:


> king,
> 
> While I think the word demand is pretty strong, I do agree with your reasoning.
> 
> ...


In reading your posts, I think you are past the days of having those talks. I am starting to get there as well. Like I've said before, I really don't understand what the big deal is with having sex with your loved one. We're talking 20 minutes tops (in the case of a quickie, which is likely all it'd be if she wasn't 100% in the mood) being with your partner in a very meaningful way, and at a time when you have nothing going on other than playing a game of cards on the computer or doing a puzzle (to steal southbound's situation). 

Unless you literally just had sex that same day already, or are sore, sick, etc. it's rather insulting to have a card game or a puzzle outrank having sex with you.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I don't like the word 'expect' but I hate the word 'rebuffed' even more.
> 
> It took me years to get to get here but we have a general rule of NOT turning the other down for sex (I'm the higher drive spouse). I'm more reasonable in my requests and he's more willing to cooperate. Win/win.


I don't like to use the word expect either, just couldn't think of a better one to put in it's place. Would 'heavily anticipate' be a better description perhaps?


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> Certain times sex is expected ...
> 
> Birthdays
> Anniversary
> ...


At minimum.... 









_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jimbob82 (Jun 29, 2012)

Kingsfan, I feel your frustration, it would have done your wife no harm to engage in a bit of carnal pleasure with you. It would have probably made you feel on top of the world I guess? 

I know what it's like to be in this position, as in all our 8 years together, my partner and I have only had 'midday sex' once - it was when all kids were out with grandparents. It was literally a 3 minute, naked rut on an unmade bed, but was sensational! I also NEVER get anniversary, birthday or father's day fun..


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Jimbob82 said:


> Kingsfan, I feel your frustration, it would have done your wife no harm to engage in a bit of carnal pleasure with you. It would have probably made you feel on top of the world I guess?
> 
> I know what it's like to be in this position, as in all our 8 years together, my partner and I have only had 'midday sex' once - it was when all kids were out with grandparents. It was literally a 3 minute, naked rut on an unmade bed, but was sensational! I also NEVER get anniversary, birthday or father's day fun..


On top of the world or not, I was simply in the mood for some extra cirricular activities, had tried to put the thought in both of our minds a few days earlier and was amped up from a day of thinking about it. I wasn't expecting some amazing situation, just a chance to do something we don't usually get to (such as make noise or have sex in the living room) because there is always kids in the house.

I don't think I'd have been on top of the world or anything, but I'd have been pretty happy, if for no other reason than to have done something different (even if it's just slightly different). The fact that my fiancee didn't share this enthusiasm, and felt more desire to watch what was going to happen on the Bachelor Pad than what was going on in our pad was what was more disappointing to me.

Midday sex for me does occur from time to time (though most is more like (late afternoon/early evening not that i care much). As for birthdays, anniversaries, Father's day, etc., very hit and miss. Father's day is something I think gets missed each year though, and I know my birthdays have been more miss than hit.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday

except Thanksgiving because all of the coats are on the bed


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> This is assuming you and your partner are of course feeling well and all of that.
> 
> Last night, me and the fiancee were at home, alone. To put this in context, we have four boys who live at home, the oldest being 16, youngest five. We also had our daughter, 20, recently stay with us for a month after she moved out of her apartment before moving to another city. To say we rarely have the house to ourselves is an understatement. I'd say we are truly 'alone' in the house maybe 3-5 times a year.
> 
> ...


I think it's pretty normal to anticipate sex in a situation like that--especially if it had been a few days since you'd last been intimate. Clearly her idea of having fun without the kids was different than yours. I don't really fault her for taking a nap--those are precious without kids in the house! At the same time, I think she should have made a little extra effort to make you happy. Maybe a good compromise would have been an enthusiastic "quickie."

The other day I wasn't really in the mood, and we'd had sex a few days before. I had been relaxing and walking around in pajama shorts. DH was like "Those legs. Look at what you are doing to me!" I smiled, and said "I can take care of that." Our lovemaking from beginning to end probably only lasted fifteen minutes. He was happy. And I was happy because I'd made him satisfied.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> In reading your posts, I think you are past the days of having those talks. I am starting to get there as well. Like I've said before, I really don't understand what the big deal is with having sex with your loved one. We're talking 20 minutes tops (in the case of a quickie, which is likely all it'd be if she wasn't 100% in the mood) being with your partner in a very meaningful way, and at a time when you have nothing going on other than playing a game of cards on the computer or doing a puzzle (to steal southbound's situation).
> 
> Unless you literally just had sex that same day already, or are sore, sick, etc. it's rather insulting to have a card game or a puzzle outrank having sex with you.


King,

You're right. But then again, you need to talk to your fiance as a first step. I'm married almost 27 years and I'm finally past the talking stage where I intiate the talk. 

You're not married yet so you still have the escape route if needed. You need to resolve these differences now, before you get married because I can tell you, these issues will only increase over time. Learn from me, grasshopper!

Not that my wife was ever HD like me but she got even lower as kids came along. Now that they're pretty self-sufficient, she's seems happy maintaing the status quo regardless of talks, books and counseling in the past.

If my wife wants to talk and find out why I am a bit standoffish and no longer do the "little things" and non-sexual touches and all the other stuff, she knows where to find me


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Toffer said:


> You're not married yet so you still have the escape route if needed. You need to resolve these differences now, before you get married because I can tell you, these issues will only increase over time. Learn from me, grasshopper!


This is why am I here, oh grandmaster. I must be taught.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> The other day I wasn't really in the mood, and we'd had sex a few days before. I had been relaxing and walking around in pajama shorts. *DH was like "Those legs. Look at what you are doing to me!"* I smiled, and said "I can take care of that." Our lovemaking from beginning to end probably only lasted fifteen minutes. He was happy. And I was happy because I'd made him satisfied.


Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing when we were at the grocery store. Always loved my fiancees legs. They are just perfect in my eyes. I think I'm getting to the point where I stop looking at those legs (and all the other lovely areas she has) because it's just frustrating me.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Yes, sex is expected. Your girlfriend was rude.

Look at it another way. You book a table at Le Château de Maison a week in advance. You take off work early and put on a suit. Your girlfriend gets dressed up. You drive 30 minutes to the restaurant, order appetizers and drinks. You love the restaurant and haven't been here in a year.

When the waiter comes to take your order, you order the steak au poivre with mashed potatoes and asparagus. Your mouth is watering. And your girlfriend refuses to order anything. She says she ate a big lunch and isn't hungry. So, she just plays on her phone while you eat dinner.

She should have known that sex was expected. Even if she didn't, you told her a few days ahead of time that it was. So she intentionally "spoiled her appetite" so that you couldn't have sex. Sorry.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

So, did you say anything to her about it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

kag123 said:


> So, did you say anything to her about it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not yet. I know there is a talk coming, because I'm not happy on the whole sex front.

I was just wondering what everyone else thought on this particular issue. Everyone, including myself, seems to agree that someone shouldn't really be able to demand sex in any particular situation (sex is a need in marriage, but it's hard to say on this or that aprticular night it's a demandable thing), but I just wondered if there were certain situations where maybe, it's quite alright to actually expect sex.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> Not yet. I know there is a talk coming, because I'm not happy on the whole sex front.
> 
> I was just wondering what everyone else thought on this particular issue. Everyone, including myself, seems to agree that someone shouldn't really be able to demand sex in any particular situation (sex is a need in marriage, but it's hard to say on this or that aprticular night it's a demandable thing), but I just wondered if there were certain situations where maybe, it's quite alright to actually expect sex.


Sex is not something you can demand, but a reason for rejection is! Sex is something you *should *"expect" in a relationship. You should have reasonable expectations.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> Not yet. I know there is a talk coming, because I'm not happy on the whole sex front.
> 
> I was just wondering what everyone else thought on this particular issue. Everyone, including myself, seems to agree that someone shouldn't really be able to demand sex in any particular situation (sex is a need in marriage, but it's hard to say on this or that aprticular night it's a demandable thing), but I just wondered if there were certain situations where maybe, it's quite alright to actually expect sex.


My two cents...

I can see why you got your hopes up. Understandable.

Talk to her to let her know your disappointment. If I were in your shoes, I would have talked to her right then instead of letting it stew. 

You don't really know what was going through her mind that afternoon. Maybe she wasn't feeling well, you don't know. If she is LD, maybe she simply forgot about your plans and/or didn't think she was going to be held to any agreement you made a few days prior.

Clearly she doesn't get how important this was to you or how much you were looking forward to it. Tell her.


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## lalsr1988 (Apr 16, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday
> 
> except Thanksgiving because all of the coats are on the bed



this^^^^^!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Just weighing in that I have no problem with the word expect. It has to do with expectations. We manage expectations in our life. 

But yeah I think it is very reasonable to have expectaions for special days. 

I suggest however that folks can help this along. Yes this is trying to influence a situation. Call it controlling if you wish. But one can do all sorts of things that count as foreplay leading up to this including baths, massages, showering together and so on. Maybe just spending quality one one one time together. If this fails then just let it be known you are in the mood. If this is rebuffed often then the realtionship is having a problem.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Sex is not only expected in a relationship, but is (usually) necessary to keep it healthy. It is the cement that holds a relationship together, and one party regularly refusing sex (for no good reason) send the message that they don't really care about their partner nor the health of the relationship.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Just weighing in that I have no problem with the word expect. It has to do with expectations. We manage expectations in our life.


Okay I see what you mean. If I try to seduce my husband I EXPECT him to respond. I don't expect him to perform after working a 16 hour shift. Managing expectations is a good way to put it.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> Not yet. I know there is a talk coming, because *I'm not happy on the whole sex front.*
> 
> King,
> 
> ...


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## heartsdelight (Apr 2, 2012)

How clear was your talk before the day? I would wager that was a part of it. I don't have kids yet but I can only imagine how rare down time is for both of you. Your instinct seems to be "let's do it while we still can!" hers seems more "ahhhh time I can just relax and shut my brain off and not stress about life or kids". Maybe you can help prepare by instead of saying "hey the kids will be gone Friday, we should have sex" trying something like "the kids will be gone Friday, I'd love if we could have sex and possibly try some new things as well. I know we don't get a lot of down time, are there some things we can do in the next few days to make sure we can enjoy our time?" Then perhaps you or she can do grocery shopping ahead of time, try to sleep a little better the night before, etc., to help her meet the needs she was feeling so that when the time came you could get yours met. I'm sure you're trying, don't get me wrong, I just think there may have been a difference in expectations that didn't get communicated. That's usually where my husband and I have issues- both of us thinking something different was about to happen and that it was obvious it would happen and then "oh wait, why are you putting up the paint tape? [we just moved]", "I dunno, why are you going to lay down?"

Good luck with your talk! I hope it can be productive.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> Okay I see what you mean. If I try to seduce my husband I EXPECT him to respond. I don't expect him to perform after working a 16 hour shift. Managing expectations is a good way to put it.


Very valid.


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## OhhShiney (Apr 8, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> I don't like the word 'expect' but I hate the word 'rebuffed' even more.
> 
> It took me years to get to get here but we have a general rule of NOT turning the other down for sex (I'm the higher drive spouse). I'm more reasonable in my requests and he's more willing to cooperate. Win/win.


Wonderful post. this IS a win/win. I suppose more so if the lower drive spouse ever requests something.

I like the approach of agreeing never to turn each other down. Was that something you actually talked about, or is it something that's literally unspoken? I can see how it would help keep things in balance. 

As the high drive spouse I have always been puzzled by exactly how to approach and how to deal with a rebuff. I wish I would be let down easily, as the rebuffs can be a bit harsh.

I've been in the OP position in many circumstances, such as valentine's day, birthday, anniversary, where there could be some sort of anticipation of love making. I'm a hopeless romantic -- more touchy-feelie, by far, than my wife. 

What is most frustrating to me is when there are otherwise romantic activities, nice dinner, my wife is wearing my favorite perfume, she attacks me and kissed me passionately in the kitchen, on the couch, etc, then stops. Later in the bedroom, she says no. To me, this is cruel and is the worst of rebuffs. I DO love to neck and cuddle without necessarily going all the way, but sometimes the on and off little incidents during the day seem little more than a tease, and I lay in bed sometimes seething with resentment. I have a hard time concealing this and get criticized if I am honest when asked what's bothering me the next day. Sometimes I am literally aching with desire … 

To me, a day with lots of hints and teasing logically leads to a reasonable expectation that things might progress later. Since we don't live alone in the house, I can't drag her off to the bedroom midday, and sometimes by the night time it's freaking HOT in the bedroom, and making love is just uncomfortable. She IS somewhat inhibited, and to be sure, the most passionate teases happen after a single glass of wine which she has a few days a week(I don't drink). If I can catch her at that time, she's a tiger, but when the buzz wears off, she's not. 

I don't think she realizes how frustrating it can be to anticipate something and have it not happen.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Toffer said:


> kingsfan said:
> 
> 
> > Not yet. I know there is a talk coming, because *I'm not happy on the whole sex front.*
> ...


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## Dr. Rockstar (Mar 23, 2011)

I don't think it's right to ever "expect" sex unless you agreed to it earlier.

You mentioned that you told her earlier that you wanted to do something different. When you say "something different," was it clear that you wanted sex? Is that what you agreed to beforehand?

If the house has been as chaotic as you said, it might have been the first time she was able to relax in months. Imagine if you had slipped any other activity in there other than sex. "We only have the house to ourselves 3-5 times a year, so I thought it would be a great time to play catch. She decided she wanted a nap and then watch TV." That doesn't sound nearly as bad because it strips the conflict to a choice of two different activities.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

OhhShiney said:


> What is most frustrating to me is when there are otherwise romantic activities, nice dinner, my wife is wearing my favorite perfume, she attacks me and kissed me passionately in the kitchen, on the couch, etc, then stops. Later in the bedroom, she says no. To me, this is cruel and is the worst of rebuffs. I DO love to neck and cuddle without necessarily going all the way, but sometimes the on and off little incidents during the day seem little more than a tease, and I lay in bed sometimes seething with resentment. I have a hard time concealing this and get criticized if I am honest when asked what's bothering me the next day. Sometimes I am literally aching with desire …
> 
> To me, a day with lots of hints and teasing logically leads to a reasonable expectation that things might progress later. Since we don't live alone in the house, I can't drag her off to the bedroom midday, and sometimes by the night time it's freaking HOT in the bedroom, and making love is just uncomfortable. She IS somewhat inhibited, and to be sure, the most passionate teases happen after a single glass of wine which she has a few days a week(I don't drink). If I can catch her at that time, she's a tiger, but when the buzz wears off, she's not.
> 
> I don't think she realizes how frustrating it can be to anticipate something and have it not happen.


I know exactly what you mean.

My fiancee and I were having a talk the other day and I had mentioned how I really like these soft, deep kisses she gives me from time to time. The kind that can say all by themselves 'I love you.'

She responded she likes giving them to me, but that she doesn't as often as she'd like because she doesn't want me to think they are leading to something else, or for me to ask for something else as a result.

I didn't think of it at the time (we had had a few and I had a decent buzz going) but afterwards I thought to myself "Well if sex was a bit more often, then I wouldn't be crawling all over you after one of those kisses."

It's a rock and a hard place. You want the flirting and touching, but she doesn't do it as much because she doesn't want to have to follow through with sex later. Meanwhile, if you had sex more often at other times, you wouldn't be hoping she'd follow through with sex nearly as often when she does give those kisses. 

Try and convince her of that though, huh?

I guess I just wish I could get it in my head what it feels like to regularly not be in the mood for your loved one. In 4+ years, I haven't turned down my fiancee and in the 10 years I was with my ex-wife, I doubt I turned her down more than a handful of times (likely not even that many) and at least one of those was out of spite (something I wouldn't do now). I couldn't imagine what it'd feel like to turn down my fiancee multiple times in a week. 

Part of me is proud of the fact I never have turned her down, but a growing part of me wishes I could just shut off my sex drive completely and never think of sex again. All it does is cause me issues. I bet I could have cured cancer with all the spare time I'd have from not thinking about or engaging in sex (most of my time would be gained from the former, not the latter).


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## OhhShiney (Apr 8, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> Sex is not only expected in a relationship, but is (usually) necessary to keep it healthy. It is the cement that holds a relationship together, and one party regularly refusing sex (for no good reason) send the message that they don't really care about their partner nor the health of the relationship.


This is so true!

When dating/courting, sex helps create the relationship. The bonding it brings is emotional and physiological. It's undeniable. 

When it slips away down the line, it's easy to forget the importance it had early on. 

My wife and I met after 50, and we nearly wore each other out. Three years down the line, our frequency has slipped, and it's quite frustrating. 

While there is much more to our relationship than sex, it's easy to see where lower frequency and missed expectations could creep in and poison our relationship.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

No means no. So does yes, maybe, I don't know, silence, I guess so, a sigh, and everything else.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Dr. Rockstar said:


> I don't think it's right to ever "expect" sex unless you agreed to it earlier.
> 
> You mentioned that you told her earlier that you wanted to do something different. When you say "something different," was it clear that you wanted sex? Is that what you agreed to beforehand?
> 
> If the house has been as chaotic as you said, it might have been the first time she was able to relax in months. Imagine if you had slipped any other activity in there other than sex. "We only have the house to ourselves 3-5 times a year, so I thought it would be a great time to play catch. She decided she wanted a nap and then watch TV." That doesn't sound nearly as bad because it strips the conflict to a choice of two different activities.


There was nothing agreed to beforehand, no. On Saturday, I had simply stated that we would have the house to ouselves and that it would be chance to have some fun. I even suggested we 'christen' another room. She replied by listing the various rooms in the house we haven't had a chance to have sex in. I took her engaging in the discussion as a sign she might be interested in the idea. I never take any talk as an agreement though. ALl the women I've ever been with have been more than capable of changing their minds and their moods before the time comes, so I stopped looking for promises, agreements, whatever a long time ago.

That said, because we had discussed it, I figured there was at least an implied state of mind that yes, I would be in the mood that night. She may well have forgot about it by then, I don't know. Either way, she certainly didn't do anything to put herself into the mood.

I don't think she viewed it as a chance to relax, but I may be wrong. I try hard to afford my fiancee a chance to relax throughout the week as well. Even if she felt the need to relax though, so did I, and all I'm seeking is 20 minutes or so out of a full evening. Instead, I spent the evening letting her have a snooze, going grocery shopping with her and mowing the lawn while she sat and watched TV. After all that, when I wanted to have some relaxation of my own, there was zero interest.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

For years it's been the same way for me. I build up a certain expectation only to have it shot down by her important needs like a "nap and TV" . Sucks really. What I have started to do is have a plan B for me. Also it helps me to talk about the "plans" for the day ahead of time so I get a clear understanding of what she wants before deciding whether or not to offer my suggestions. But seriously it's not like sex is going to take all day. Luckily for you she is not your wife yet and you still have time to re-think marriage. I would.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Kings:
You are a man, and your primary love language is touch. That is how you feel loved by your fiance. She should be thrilled that you desire her, and if I were you, I would not be interested in making a life-long commitment to a woman who rejected my way of loving her. I don't know how you stand it, and it makes me unspeakably sad that you want to diminish your way of expressing love, your sex drive.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Kingsfan,

I loosely follow your posts, since there's alot there that I relate to. I have to imagine you've been asked why the engagement is still on, but if so I haven't seen it. I suppose, if asked, you'd probably respond along the lines of her great qualities outweighing the not-so-great, but I wonder.

I understand that you're probably posting about only one facet of your relationship, the one you find troubling, but the point I'm getting to is that it seems to trouble you a great deal. You're not like most of here who have been married since Reagan was president and have a houseful of kids; you have considerably more freedom of movement and action. Are you sure this is the route you want to take?

Probably comes across as pretty presumptuous on my part, but I'm just concerned about you man.


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## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

She took a nap because she knew you expected it and she didn't want to do it. I've done this. You gotta talk to her.


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## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

CanadianGuy said:


> For years it's been the same way for me. I build up a certain expectation only to have it shot down by her important needs like a "nap and TV" . Sucks really. What I have started to do is have a plan B for me. Also it helps me to talk about the "plans" for the day ahead of time so I get a clear understanding of what she wants before deciding whether or not to offer my suggestions. But seriously it's not like sex is going to take all day. Luckily for you she is not your wife yet and you still have time to re-think marriage. I would.


It doesn't take all day, but when you don't want it it takes a lot out of you, as a woman. Receiving something INTO your body is a lot more stressful (for lack of a better word) than you sticking it in.

There is a great site by Alison Armstrong that men AND women should read sometime. Sex isn't the be all and end all, but understanding and empathy between the sexes would make it a lot easier for all concerned.

PAX Programs Incorporated - Celebrating Men, Satisfying Women


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> I know exactly what you mean.
> 
> My fiancee and I were having a talk the other day and I had mentioned how I really like these soft, deep kisses she gives me from time to time. The kind that can say all by themselves 'I love you.'
> 
> ...


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

lovesherman said:


> Kings:
> You are a man, and your primary love language is touch. That is how you feel loved by your fiance. She should be thrilled that you desire her, and if I were you, I would not be interested in making a life-long commitment to a woman who rejected my way of loving her. I don't know how you stand it, and it makes me unspeakably sad that you want to diminish your way of expressing love, your sex drive.


I know I'm speaking/typing out of frustration today. I don't honestly want my sex drive to deminish, but when every women you've been with (and not a great number compared to some other men around here, but still everyone of them) seems to treat sex with you like it's something which must be done rather than something exciting, it takes a toll on you. What really pisses me off is my ex-wife and my current fiancee were both into it a lot at first (my ex-wife we had sex almost every day for the first 6 months) but the interest dwindled noticably.

It was total bait and switch in my ex-wifes case. She told me as such. With my fiancee, it might be as well, but it's not a concious one. That said, I really don't care if it is or isn't a case of bait and switch, all I care is the frequency and desire are down. Way down by my books.

After going through this problem time after time it just gets frustrating and you start to resort to basic logic. If something is a problem over and over again even though the scenario has changed, you are taught to look for the common parts in all scenarios. It's looking more and more like that is me. As such, I have little faith that things would change if I went to someone else anyways. Some men are born to be aplha males, some aren't. I'm a few steps short of alpha in my humble opinion.



GTdad said:


> Kingsfan,
> 
> I loosely follow your posts, since there's alot there that I relate to. I have to imagine you've been asked why the engagement is still on, but if so I haven't seen it. I suppose, if asked, you'd probably respond along the lines of her great qualities outweighing the not-so-great, but I wonder.
> 
> ...


Hey Toffer,

I like to read your posts as well (and Jimbob's) for the same reason. It's like we are walking in each others shoes, just at different stages of life.

I'm not commited to getting married as long as this problem is an issue. I do have the luxury of two years until the wedding. If I'm not confident that this problem will solve itself, I am prepared to back out of it. I made the mistake once of getting married thinking marriage would solve everything. It didn't then, it won't now. It's not like some switch is going to go off in her head after eating wedding cake to turn her into my oen personal nympho. If anything, wedding cake has the opposite effect.

That said, I'm also willing to give it some more time to see if things can be adjusted to better suit my needs as well. I do love her and you are right, there are other areas of our relationship which are great. I don't want to toss those all aside if I don't have to.

It's not like if we split I'm going to date someone else right away anyways, so I may as well invest this time in trying to make a good situation (overall) nearly perfect. 



honeysuckle rose said:


> She took a nap because she knew you expected it and she didn't want to do it. I've done this. You gotta talk to her.


She didn't do this. I know that much. If she wanted to do this, she wouldn't have asked to be woken up at 6:00. She has naps several times a week (about every second day) so her having a nap isn't unusual at all. She doesn't do them to duck out on sex though. I know this.

My ex-wife used to do that a lot though, and oddly is what led to her starting an online emotional affiar with a few different men. Because she'd go to bed early (she wouldn't nap, just go to bed at 8:00, same time as our oldest son went to bed. Convient timing, huh?), she'd also wake up at like 4:00 a.m. She'd then go to the computer while I'm asleep and talk for a few hours in chat groups and such, eventually meeting several men. Took me years to figure this out as by the time I'd usually get up, she'd have been long done on the computer.

Ahhh, memories. How I hate them.


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

She was probably relieved that she got ot get a peacful rest in, that is what she wanted to take advantage of. i cant blame her.
BUT....
You wanted to be intimate, those needs should always be met in the relationship, especially with the youngens gone!!!!
I would have attacked. hahha


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

"I figured there was at least an implied state of mind that yes, I would be in the mood that night."

Well, I guess we all just solved the problem. There is NEVER an implied state of mind when it comes to this type of thing


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Chris Taylor said:


> "I figured there was at least an implied state of mind that yes, I would be in the mood that night."
> 
> Well, I guess we all just solved the problem. There is NEVER an implied state of mind when it comes to this type of thing


Indeed. The only thing implied in a relationship is bill paying, lawn mowing and furniture repair. I'm incredibly dense because I'm only starting to have that sink in now after 17 years of relationships.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

OhhShiney said:


> I like the approach of agreeing never to turn each other down. Was that something you actually talked about, or is it something that's literally unspoken? I can see how it would help keep things in balance.


We've discussed it. As the HD spouse I've ASSURED him I won't ever turn it down. I don't care if it's 2am and he's horny PLEASE wake me up. LOL

As the lower drive spouse he's agreed to not turn it down which meant he had to admit that he sometimes needs a bit of extra help getting aroused.  THIS was difficult for him to do but he's learning to trust me. I'm HAPPY to help turn him on.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

How about on your honeymoon, should you expect it then...because it did not happen for me. Yeah, it was a rough start but we are on track now.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I have a Buddhic calm about most things - I have no expectations.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

hubby said:


> How about on your honeymoon, should you expect it then...because it did not happen for me. Yeah, it was a rough start but we are on track now.


It almost didn't happen for me either. What is up with that? Sigh. Rough start here too and yes back on track.

And yes I absolutely expected sex on my honeymoon/wedding night.


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## ukv (Jul 6, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> Not yet. I know there is a talk coming, because I'm not happy on the whole sex front.
> 
> I was just wondering what everyone else thought on this particular issue. Everyone, including myself, seems to agree that someone shouldn't really be able to demand sex in any particular situation (sex is a need in marriage, but it's hard to say on this or that aprticular night it's a demandable thing), but I just wondered if there were certain situations where maybe, it's quite alright to actually expect sex.


u seem to be bending over backwards and trying to play with semantics... the fact is that the need was well understood and usually is. The LD side just doesnt care of your need - if you become persistent in having your need met (despite informing this in advance) then it seems demanding and then everything starts getting topsy turvy.

IMO your fiance does not love you enough and does not care for you needs. I am in a frustrating situation now with my wife. With my knowledge that I have now if I were in your situation - I would give one last attempt and speak with her about your needs. If you do not start seeing a persistent change after this its time to dump and run. Sorry I am a little blunt but with my sexual frustration u would be happy to know of this before you got into legal obligations of marriage...


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Mavash. said:


> It almost didn't happen for me either. What is up with that? Sigh. Rough start here too and yes back on track.
> 
> And yes I absolutely expected sex on my honeymoon/wedding night.


Wow, I wonder if anyone else had the same experience we had on our honeymoons...


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

honeysuckle rose said:


> It doesn't take all day, but when you don't want it it takes a lot out of you, as a woman. Receiving something INTO your body is a lot more stressful (for lack of a better word) than you sticking it in.
> 
> There is a great site by Alison Armstrong that men AND women should read sometime. Sex isn't the be all and end all, but understanding and empathy between the sexes would make it a lot easier for all concerned.
> 
> PAX Programs Incorporated - Celebrating Men, Satisfying Women


I'd like you to follow up on this more honeysuckle rose. As a man, I have no sense of understanding the concept of the stress (or whatever term you meant to use) of receiving something into my body during sex (I don't do any of that weird/kinky/whatever type of stuff). 

Can you explain for us men how sex is stressful, to what degree it is stressful and just how difficult it would be to have sex with your spouse (not your spouse specifically, just a man in general terms) every time he wanted sex (assuming a normal libido of between 3-5 times a week) even if you weren't really in the mood, but did have a partner quite willing to get you in the mood (or bring you to orgasm through oral, etc.)? 

I'll be honest, it doesn't sound overly stressing to me personally, but once again I have never been in those shoes before so I have no concept of how stressing it is in all actuality.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

hubby said:


> Wow, I wonder if anyone else had the same experience we had on our honeymoons...


With my ex-wife, we had sex the same day as the wedding. And that was it for the honeymoon.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Things are generally simpler than most people make them out to be. If your partner is oblivious to you in this way then they're generally oblivious to you in every way. If they treat like they don't like you they probably don't like you. If what you want turns into an endless painful series of half assed concessions then that is precisely what they are. Also, people lie. A lot, all the time. It's not simply a matter of 'when is sex a commandment' because we don't still live in Biblical times. But it is a matter of why your partner doesn't recognize or doesn't want to say they recognize this is a problem or that it's 'in your head'.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Runs its true my husband didn't like me. I get it now. Thankfully it wasn't too late when I decided to be a better wife.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

honeysuckle rose said:


> It doesn't take all day, but when you don't want it it takes a lot out of you, as a woman. Receiving something INTO your body is a lot more stressful (for lack of a better word) than you sticking it in.
> 
> There is a great site by Alison Armstrong that men AND women should read sometime. Sex isn't the be all and end all, but understanding and empathy between the sexes would make it a lot easier for all concerned.
> 
> PAX Programs Incorporated - Celebrating Men, Satisfying Women


At the risk of hijacking the thread of the OP I found what you wrote quite insightful. I would suspect some women do not find it stressful at all. I would submit that some men do find it stressful and point to the world of ED medication for performance anxiety as evidence. I'm sorry you find it stressful. It sounds to me like you feel an obligation and duty to the relationship to "perform". I hope your husband is grateful for your compromise.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Kingsfan, 
Do you feel that this rejection has been creeping into other areas of your life - like self esteem for instance? Confidence? Overall "manly" feelings.


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## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

kingsfan said:


> I'd like you to follow up on this more honeysuckle rose. As a man, I have no sense of understanding the concept of the stress (or whatever term you meant to use) of receiving something into my body during sex (I don't do any of that weird/kinky/whatever type of stuff).
> 
> Can you explain for us men how sex is stressful, to what degree it is stressful and just how difficult it would be to have sex with your spouse (not your spouse specifically, just a man in general terms) every time he wanted sex (assuming a normal libido of between 3-5 times a week) even if you weren't really in the mood, but did have a partner quite willing to get you in the mood (or bring you to orgasm through oral, etc.)?
> 
> I'll be honest, it doesn't sound overly stressing to me personally, but once again I have never been in those shoes before so I have no concept of how stressing it is in all actuality.


Of course, it wouldn't sound overly stressful to you BECAUSE you're a man. If the wind blows just right, you're ready to go (hyperbolic, yes - hope you smiled).

I have an orgasms (sometimes 2) every time I have sex w/ my partner. It makes him feel soooo good to be close to me and makes him feel connected to me. All of which is good for him. It used to be good for me too, but sadly no more.

And having all these great orgasms doesn't make me miss him, or feel connected to him, or make me wanna jump his bones and do it as often as possible. Why? Because I'm tired, I'm angry, I'm depressed, I don't feel like being touched, or handled...

The brain IS the biggest sex organ - certainly for a lot of women I know (and from the posts, a lot of women on TAM). Not having as much testosterone and being tired/depressed/angry just kills any romantic notions you may have had toward your partner. So, when he starts rubbing on you or grabbing you, it's annoying. Because you KNOW you're gonna have to psyche yourself up even if you do get aroused. You may not fully be into it because you're thinking about the laundry, the bills, your meetings the next day, him having an orgasm, him hurrying up so it'll be over with. It's not a slam and it's not that we don't love you. 

Maybe touch isn't our love language. But it's a LOT of effort and discomfort and stress for some women because if we aren't aroused enough, all the lube in the world isn't going to lift your cervix, which he will hit with the tip of his penis every time he thrusts. And that hurts - me anyway. 

Accepting something INTO your body when you don't even want to be touched is stressful because it's an invasion and we know how hurtful it will be to you to know this. We know how we have to submit to you when we don't want to and feign excitement when we don't want to. We have to perhaps pretend we came because it'll make you feel good...

My dearest friend died Fri and he was coming home the next day after two weeks away at a large client. I just wanted to lie in bed and cry and grieve. But, the next day I had to put on my game face and be funny and engaging and loving and affectionate. And I KNEW that sex was expected of me because he'd been away so long. And I did it. And I felt empty because I would have rather had my wisdom teeth extracted. He didn't make me and he understood my friend died. But, for him it was different and he wanted his sex. To keep him happy, I did it and I had to do it the next day and twice the day after because he missed me. It was stressful, sad and sore for me.

If you aren't in a good place emotionally or in your relationship, sex isn't always a stress reliever. And the only equivalent I can think of for a man is imagine you had to read 45 100-page contracts at work for 18 hours. Your brain hurts, your eyes hurt, you just wanna sit and veg. But when you get home, she wants to hear about your day and wants you to listen to her and what happened to her AND you have to be excited and engaged and funny and talking -- and you just want her to SHUT THE HELL UP!

Hope that helps. We love you. Sometimes we just don't feel loving toward you...(and we know that goes both ways :awink


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## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

CanadianGuy said:


> At the risk of hijacking the thread of the OP I found what you wrote quite insightful. I would suspect some women do not find it stressful at all. I would submit that some men do find it stressful and point to the world of ED medication for performance anxiety as evidence. I'm sorry you find it stressful. It sounds to me like you feel an obligation and duty to the relationship to "perform". I hope your husband is grateful for your compromise.


Thank you for sharing that about ED. It is something we struggled with because of the way he was used to handling his own penis while watching porn and masturbating. Imagine my horror when he couldn't get it up and I'm all ready to go (back in the day...). I can see how crummy that would make a man feel from a feeling rejected POV.

Empathy on both sides would help us all.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

honeysuckle rose said:


> My dearest friend died Fri and he was coming home the next day after two weeks away at a large client. I just wanted to lie in bed and cry and grieve. But, the next day I had to put on my game face and be funny and engaging and loving and affectionate. And I KNEW that sex was expected of me because he'd been away so long. And I did it. And I felt empty because I would have rather had my wisdom teeth extracted. *He didn't make me and he understood my friend died. But, for him it was different and he wanted his sex. To keep him happy, I did it and I had to do it the next day and twice the day after because he missed me.* It was stressful, sad and sore for me.


Just curious - how much of this is him, and how much is you? By that I mean you seem to state that he did not make you, but you did it because you thought it was required, and then you seem to blame him. How much of the blame is on him for that expectation, and how much is on you giving in and then being resentful?


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## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Just curious - how much of this is him, and how much is you? By that I mean you seem to state that he did not make you, but you did it because you thought it was required, and then you seem to blame him. How much of the blame is on him for that expectation, and how much is on you giving in and then being resentful?


It was a silent expectation just like honeymoon sex. If I didn't have sex, I was going to have to deal with the sulking and his feeling rejected. I lose either way. Perhaps we are both to blame. I can't sit here and honestly say that I don't understand where he is coming from after being away 2 weeks and wanting to be intimate w/ me because he loves me. That would be insane. So I try to accommodate and not be resentful. I am resentful about other things that bleed into sex. It's just screwing to me. For him, it's his connection to feeling closer to me.

I don't wanna hijack the thread.


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## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

hubby said:


> How about on your honeymoon, should you expect it then...because it did not happen for me. Yeah, it was a rough start but we are on track now.


I would say I could understand not having sex the night of because of tiredness. But, certainly the next morning. And don't guys like it better in the morning when all that testosterone is surging?


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## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

Re nap to avoid sex:

She didn't do this. I know that much. If she wanted to do this, she wouldn't have asked to be woken up at 6:00. She has naps several times a week (about every second day) so her having a nap isn't unusual at all. She doesn't do them to duck out on sex though. I know this.

My ex-wife used to do that a lot though, and oddly is what led to her starting an online emotional affiar with a few different men. Because she'd go to bed early (she wouldn't nap, just go to bed at 8:00, same time as our oldest son went to bed. Convient timing, huh?), she'd also wake up at like 4:00 a.m. She'd then go to the computer while I'm asleep and talk for a few hours in chat groups and such, eventually meeting several men. Took me years to figure this out as by the time I'd usually get up, she'd have been long done on the computer.

Ahhh, memories. How I hate them.[/QUOTE]

I'm glad she didn't then. And you are a pro because you've already been thru that, unfortunately. What your ex did was unbelievably foul. I am sorry that happened to you and that you are going through changes w/ the fiancee'.


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## Accipiter777 (Jul 22, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> This is assuming you and your partner are of course feeling well and all of that.
> 
> Last night, me and the fiancee were at home, alone. To put this in context, we have four boys who live at home, the oldest being 16, youngest five. We also had our daughter, 20, recently stay with us for a month after she moved out of her apartment before moving to another city. To say we rarely have the house to ourselves is an understatement. I'd say we are truly 'alone' in the house maybe 3-5 times a year.
> 
> ...


It about opportunity lost.... Been there.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> It almost didn't happen for me either. What is up with that? Sigh. Rough start here too and yes back on track.
> 
> And yes I absolutely expected sex on my honeymoon/wedding night.


We didn't have sex on our wedding night (was a really horrible day, I was so sick), and only once during our 10 day honeymoon. I am always upset when I think about that. I was 20 weeks pregnant and sick as a dog that whole time...just miserable!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lovingsummer (Jul 27, 2012)

I don't think this expectation is unreasonable (I can understand your gf wanting to take a nap though)  and the expectation on other days as well... bithdays and Father's Day are always an automatic BJ (start to finish... he does NOTHING but lay there and enjoy) and a beer or what my husband and I refer to as a "Ralphie May" in one of his shows he talks about wanting his woman to give him sex (or a bj) and get the hell out so he can take a nap :rofl: In the 20 years we've been together... I've loved doing this for my husband (not just on special occasions) because 90% of the time, it comes back to me 10 fold....


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Baring illness, or menstruation, the _possibility_ of sex should exist every single day. It actually doesn't even matter whether you have sex every day, most won't, but frankly the possibility should always be there.

I don't believe in "special days" for sex. That's ludicrous to me. I think sex should be expected as much on a routine day as it is after a special occasion, or when you're finally alone together and "free". If you're looking forward to only special windows of time to have sex, then you're already fighting a losing battle. 

I think if a couple makes sex a priority, no matter what else is happening in their lives, they'll fulfill that priority. And then there isn't so much damn pressure on those "special times". That way if you don't end up having sex on Valentine's Day, or when the kids are finally out of the house for awhile, you're not too crushed and upset because you are secure that your appetite is being fed on regular old days anyway.

And I do think this is doable. A friend of mine is one of seven kids, and in his parent's marriage they never tried to hide their active sex life from their kids. They cornered off time daily to be together, and all the kids in their family, both the adults and the ones under aged, know that mom and dad sequester themselves off to the bedroom daily to connect and make love.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> It almost didn't happen for me either. What is up with that? Sigh. Rough start here too and yes back on track.
> 
> And yes I absolutely expected sex on my honeymoon/wedding night.


Ouch.

It almost didn't happen for me, but it wasn't because of my wife, it was because of the drunks in the alley next to the hotel who were yelling at the top of their lungs. Kinda spoils the mood.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> I am self-admittedly a very sexually insecure person in the sense that I don't have a lot of self-esteem in this area. I don't feel good looking, attractive, desireable, etc. and rejection fuels that obviously. I had a great deal of rejection from my ex wife and while the level of rejection in my current relationship isn't nearly as bad, it is still well above what I want it to be (a little rejection is fine, and should be expected outside of a few very lucky marriages).


There is the crux of your problems right there. If your self esteem is crushed, you're not going to be able to make the decisions that are best for what you _deserve_, nor are you going to ever be in the place to put your expectations forth with strength, conviction, and the expectation that your needs deserve to be met.

You seem to be looking at sex as something that a woman lets you have if you're lucky, something she allows you to do, if you're "good", and push the right buttons, and jump through the right hoops. Brother you need to do some serious self work and find a way to pull yourself together. If your insecurities stem from some outward flaw, like a obesity for instance, do what you can to correct that. If you're fat, lazy, and out of shape you might be shocked by how much your perception, behavior, and expectations radically change when you build a healthy, attractive body to be proud of.

If it's more an internal issue, please try and do some self work and find a counselor or psychologist to work through the issues. Get to the heart and root of why you feel so insecure and unattractive. 

You aren't even married, but are taking a TON of crap from your fiance already, and it's likely because you might not even realize you deserve better. Because if you can find a way to feel sexually virile, masculine, strong, and empowered, you'd be shocked at what kind of mess you will NOT ALLOW in your life, from you fiance or anyone for that matter.

You are buried alive. You have allowed your self image, and sense of worth, to be ground into dust. Your problems are far more potent right now than whether your fiance puts out enough or not. Until you can find a way to reconcile with the man in the mirror, it won't matter much what she does.

You also will likely find that as you improve yourself, and get more comfortable in your own skin, your masculinity, as you become accustomed to expecting your desires to be met, and met well, she'll crave your more, and desire to **** you more often. Few people are driven wild by insecure, broken down messes.


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## lovingsummer (Jul 27, 2012)

I agree jaquen  I'm not even sure my husband "expects" it as much as I just do it just to "spoil" him a bit ... even in the years when menstration was an issue.. I still took care of his needs... we have a great sex life though so that does make a difference... We are alot like your friend's parents, we've always made sure our kids knew we aren't just Mom and Dad... we're husband and wife... and they will grow up and move away... we'll still be here with eachother


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Dr. Rockstar said:


> I don't think it's right to ever "expect" sex unless you agreed to it earlier.


That's crazy. It elevates sex beyond what it is.

Sex is a duty that both spouses have to each other. It's an obligation of marriage. It is NOT the reward for a secret quest where, if you jump through 100 hoops, get the magical key that unlocks the chastity belt, the planets are aligned, AND your wife has nothing better to do, then you get sex.



Dr. Rockstar said:


> You mentioned that you told her earlier that you wanted to do something different. When you say "something different," was it clear that you wanted sex? Is that what you agreed to beforehand?


The OP did say that he suggested it a day or two prior, and his wife seemed amenable. He didn't say that she committed. And he didn't get her commitment in writing, witnessed and notarized. But, when sex is rare, one spouse creates an opportunity, and gives the other spouse ample warning, then sex should be expected.



Dr. Rockstar said:


> Imagine if you had slipped any other activity in there other than sex. "We only have the house to ourselves 3-5 times a year, so I thought it would be a great time to play catch. She decided she wanted a nap and then watch TV." That doesn't sound nearly as bad because it strips the conflict to a choice of two different activities.


But it's a bad analogy because nobody has ever cited a refusal to play catch as a factor in drifting apart from his wife. When old married couples give advice to younger couples for how to have a long and successful marriage, they will never say, "You have to make time to play catch at least twice a week."

So, yeah. Sex should be expected. The entire attitude of seeing sex as a precious gift that LD spouses (usually wives) bestow upon their HD spouses as a reward for exceptional service is a farce.

The marriage bed used to be a euphemism for sex. Old TV shows wouldn't even show one bed in a married couple's room because it would be understood that sex was involved. It's sad now that a mainstream and successful effort to portray husbands as quasi-rapists has been so successful.


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## lovingsummer (Jul 27, 2012)

Well I'm new to the TAM forum... Can somebody tell me what LD and HD stand for? I'm figuring some of them out but these have me stumped....


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

honeysuckle rose said:


> Of course, it wouldn't sound overly stressful to you BECAUSE you're a man. If the wind blows just right, you're ready to go (hyperbolic, yes - hope you smiled).
> 
> I have an orgasms (sometimes 2) every time I have sex w/ my partner. It makes him feel soooo good to be close to me and makes him feel connected to me. All of which is good for him. It used to be good for me too, but sadly no more.
> 
> ...


Honestly if somebody finds themselves feeling like you do, year after year, then marriage is the last state of being you need to be involved in. 

This sounds like torture. Your husband deserves to be with a woman who isn't sacrificing pieces of her soul, and sanity, just to help him get his rocks off. And you deserve the peace of mind, and serenity, that comes from being either with somebody as equally uninterested in regular sexual gratification as you, or being alone.

There is just no reason for a person to be married when it's causing this much soul tearing and mind killing.

This is heartbreaking, and horrific, to read. It feels like you're, on some level, describing a repeated rape experience.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kings,
I think you are heading down a really bad path. 

A path that has a very small trail marker labelled "point of no return". 





kingsfan said:


> This is assuming you and your partner are of course feeling well and all of that.
> 
> Last night, me and the fiancee were at home, alone. To put this in context, we have four boys who live at home, the oldest being 16, youngest five. We also had our daughter, 20, recently stay with us for a month after she moved out of her apartment before moving to another city. To say we rarely have the house to ourselves is an understatement. I'd say we are truly 'alone' in the house maybe 3-5 times a year.
> 
> ...


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## Dr. Rockstar (Mar 23, 2011)

PHTLump:

So you're saying that not only should I expect my wife to hike up her skirt and bend over anytime I ask, but she should also be expecting me to ask her 24/7 and be ready in a moment's notice? I've been on both sides of this equation, and I can say that expectation to perform whenever your partner asks quickly becomes an obligation and a chore that you dread to your core.

I think that both partners should do their best to meet their partner's expectations. I've been saying on other threads just today that there are ways that HD partners can get their LD spouses to get out of their own heads. My hang up is with the word "expect." but to say that you expect your partner to behave the way you'd like them to makes it an obligation to them and doesn't take their wishes into consideration. That will eventually make them feel devalued and resentful, and that will want them to have sex less, not more.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I hold to a very unpopular viewpoint here. 

Goes like this. 

I follow the golden rule. Frequency like many things - should be a healthy compromise. 

It isn't fair of me to pressure you to do something intimate that you have come to dislike. I won't knowingly do it. 

It isn't acceptable to me to be celibate (absent spouse getting massively injured - permanently disabled).

You cannot simultaneously claim you love ME (not the things I do for you - who I am) and demand celibacy. 

So - if your desire to please me, and your desire to avoid displeasing me have left the building, then accept that I will be discrete. 

I won't leave you over the absence of sex - because you have gotten to some bad place in your head. And neither will I try to stop you from leaving me, when I choose not to be celibate. 

In my house you don't get to simultaneously claim that sex is unimportant for US - and yet so important if it happens with another that the result will be divorce. 




Dr. Rockstar said:


> PHTLump:
> 
> So you're saying that not only should I expect my wife to hike up her skirt and bend over anytime I ask, but she should also be expecting me to ask her 24/7 and be ready in a moment's notice? I've been on both sides of this equation, and I can say that expectation to perform whenever your partner asks quickly becomes an obligation and a chore that you dread to your core.
> 
> I think that both partners should do their best to meet their partner's expectations. I've been saying on other threads just today that there are ways that HD partners can get their LD spouses to get out of their own heads. My hang up is with the word "expect." but to say that you expect your partner to behave the way you'd like them to makes it an obligation to them and doesn't take their wishes into consideration. That will eventually make them feel devalued and resentful, and that will want them to have sex less, not more.


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

HTe insecurities will make her turned off.
a woman desires a man who is confident and
shows it.
we all have insecurities, its how we handle them that makes us sexy and desirable.
beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
she obivously thought you were sexy before, so bring that sexy back!!!!!!!!


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

lovingsummer said:


> Well I'm new to the TAM forum... Can somebody tell me what LD and HD stand for? I'm figuring some of them out but these have me stumped....


LD = low drive
HD = high drive


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Dr. Rockstar said:


> PHTLump:
> 
> So you're saying that not only should I expect my wife to hike up her skirt and bend over anytime I ask, but she should also be expecting me to ask her 24/7 and be ready in a moment's notice?


Nope. I never wrote that. A husband has the right to expect sex on a regular basis with rejection being unusual. The OP gets sex infrequently and he is rejected more often than not. That means his wife is being unreasonable.



Dr. Rockstar said:


> My hang up is with the word "expect." but to say that you expect your partner to behave the way you'd like them to makes it an obligation to them and doesn't take their wishes into consideration. That will eventually make them feel devalued and resentful, and that will want them to have sex less, not more.


If a woman resents an expectation, does it necessarily follow that the expectation is unreasonable? Or is it possible that the expectation is reasonable, but the woman's feelings of resentment are unreasonable? I believe the latter.

Your hang up seems to be with the very concept of a loving and giving marriage. You're saying that, if a wife wants to treat her husband like her butler, and only give up sex for special occasions (or not), then she should be free to take from her husband without ever giving a thought to giving anything back. I know you're saying that's not ideal. You're just saying that wives, and perhaps even husbands (but wives are the more common LD spouse) should have that option.

I disagree. Marriage is a sexual relationship between two people who should be contributing to the family. It is not a relationship between a woman and her butler.

It amazes me that people actually bristle at the notion that adults should be required, and expected, to contribute to a family. No wonder why one of the most common flaws in marriage today is an overdeveloped sense of entitlement.


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## Dr. Rockstar (Mar 23, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> If a woman resents an expectation, does it necessarily follow that the expectation is unreasonable? Or is it possible that the expectation is reasonable, but the woman's feelings of resentment are unreasonable? I believe the latter.
> 
> Your hang up seems to be with the very concept of a loving and giving marriage. You're saying that, if a wife wants to treat her husband like her butler, and only give up sex for special occasions (or not), then she should be free to take from her husband without ever giving a thought to giving anything back. I know you're saying that's not ideal. You're just saying that wives, and perhaps even husbands (but wives are the more common LD spouse) should have that option.


I don't think I was saying that at all. At least I hope not.

Let me put it this way: I just went back and re-read the beginning of this thread and my original post. Some of the early posters said that a person was expected to give it up on special occasions. Flip that around and look at it from the other side. Following that thought to its natural conclusion, the other person is obligated to give it up fora nice dinner and dancing? In my mind that isn't following through on a marriage vow or even reciprocation. That's repayment for services rendered. Please forgive my language, because I can't think of a better phrase, but that means that the second partner is essentially wh**ing himself or herself out for a nice time. 

Can we at least agree that expectation is equal to an unvoiced demand? I'm not saying that a couple has to draw up a contract any time they want to be intimate. I am saying that it's unfair to just assume that it's a spouse's duty to have sex at a moment's notice, and that it's okay to turn their partner down sometime.

If a person expects their spouse to have sex with them just because, it means that they believe the spouse is either ready for sex the same time as that person, or that it doesn't matter how they feel about it. A person should have a voice in whether or not they want to have sex. There's another word for the logical extension of that reasoning, but I'm not going to use it here.

And--just to clarify--I'm not talking about a wife's obligation to her husband, but a conflict between any two partners.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Honestly if somebody finds themselves feeling like you do, year after year, then marriage is the last state of being you need to be involved in.
> 
> This sounds like torture. Your husband deserves to be with a woman who isn't sacrificing pieces of her soul, and sanity, just to help him get his rocks off. And you deserve the peace of mind, and serenity, that comes from being either with somebody as equally uninterested in regular sexual gratification as you, or being alone.
> 
> ...


Jaquen, her response was posted in an effort to explain to men why some women sometimes find sex stressful instead of relaxing and something they are always in the mood for. 

I don't think it is fair of you to tell her that she should live alone because she doesn't always find sex an enjoyable experience. As you know, marriage involves more than sex. She loves her husband, she knows he needs sex, and so she chooses to fulfill that need for him. This is not rape. Rape occurs when you are forced to have sex. This poster is not forced. She has made an active _decision_ to have sex with her husband to preserve her marriage.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> Kingsfan,
> Do you feel that this rejection has been creeping into other areas of your life - like self esteem for instance? Confidence? Overall "manly" feelings.


DING! DING! DING!

I think we have a winner! CanadianGuy has hit it on the head for us HD folks who have been shot down more times than Snoopy!

IT SUCKS


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> Jaquen, her response was posted in an effort to explain to men why some women sometimes find sex stressful instead of relaxing and something they are always in the mood for.
> 
> I don't think it is fair of you to tell her that she should live alone because she doesn't always find sex an enjoyable experience. As you know, marriage involves more than sex. She loves her husband, she knows he needs sex, and so she chooses to fulfill that need for him. This is not rape. Rape occurs when you are forced to have sex. This poster is not forced. She has made an active _decision_ to have sex with her husband to preserve her marriage.


Mom,

While Jacquen's post was a little blunt, I too agree with his thought process.

It seems that she does submit to sex with her husband willingly but rarely (if ever) enjoys it herself. I'm not saying she does this on purpose and I do feel for her but I also wonder if her husband knows this about her.

Personally, I would not want to have sex with my partner if I felt it was being done on their part because they felt they HAD to. I also find it troubling that she couldn't say to her husband when he came home after two weeks "Baby, you know I love you but I'm really not in the mood right now since mary passed away. I promise I'll make it up to you next week and make it special (or whatever)"

A number of men here (women too I guess) refer to this kind of sex as "chore" sex. It's just another item on the LD spouse's To Do list that needs to be done and checked off as soon as possible. Believe it or not, with most men this eventually becomes stale and unfulfilling


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Toffer said:


> Mom,
> 
> While Jacquen's post was a little blunt, I too agree with his thought process.
> 
> ...


I don't really disagree with anything you have said here. What I found most troubling about Jaquen's post was the word "rape." I find this comparison both extreme and unfair.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> Jaquen, her response was posted in an effort to explain to men why some women sometimes find sex stressful instead of relaxing and something they are always in the mood for.
> 
> I don't think it is fair of you to tell her that she should live alone because she doesn't always find sex an enjoyable experience. As you know, marriage involves more than sex. She loves her husband, she knows he needs sex, and so she chooses to fulfill that need for him. This is not rape. Rape occurs when you are forced to have sex. This poster is not forced. She has made an active _decision_ to have sex with her husband to preserve her marriage.


I know why she offered her view. I am not disputing the motivations behind her sharing those thoughts.

However the way she describes sex, the strong language and imagery, the notion that she is regularly, against her desires, submitting to sex in order to keep her husband, but is feeling pain, and emptiness, feels like a clear VIOLATION. This woman sounds like she is regularly submitting to an act that is hurtful to her, emotionally, and physically, an act that is violating her.

The way she is describing her sexual situation sounds, to me, like it's bordering on forced sex. I mean the woman's friend died, and she still felt like she "had" to submit to sex because of husband was coming in from out of town. She did NOT want to have sex, she wasn't even psychologically sound enough to have sex, but she felt some sort of pressure, and expectation, to put out despite her desire and her will. Not that her husband is raping her intentionally, but that she feels some sort of unspoken coercion. The sex act that this woman is describing in her thread is NOT what every woman feels, and is NOT how good, mutually beneficial, healthy sex is suppose to feel.

I feel extremely bad, and horrified, for the woman who posted that.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Dr. Rockstar said:


> Some of the early posters said that a person was expected to give it up on special occasions. Flip that around and look at it from the other side. Following that thought to its natural conclusion, the other person is obligated to give it up fora nice dinner and dancing? In my mind that isn't following through on a marriage vow or even reciprocation. That's repayment for services rendered. Please forgive my language, because I can't think of a better phrase, but that means that the second partner is essentially wh**ing himself or herself out for a nice time.


I disagree. In most cases, the HD spouse isn't the one who introduced the concept of sex in exchange for services. The LD spouse introduces the concept of sex as a special reward. Then, the HD spouse starts running on his hamster wheel as fast as he can to create an environment amenable to sex.

As another poster early in the thread wrote, if you're having sex three times a week, every week, then skipping Valentine's Day is no big deal. You had sex yesterday.



Dr. Rockstar said:


> Can we at least agree that expectation is equal to an unvoiced demand? I'm not saying that a couple has to draw up a contract any time they want to be intimate. I am saying that it's unfair to just assume that it's a spouse's duty to have sex at a moment's notice, and that it's okay to turn their partner down sometime.


Sure. Both partners have demands, or expectations in marriage. The irony is, if wife #1 is having a lot of sex with her husband, his expectation of sex over time is very high. But, the expectation of any one night is low. If she's too tired, it's no problem. They can go to it tomorrow. If wife #2 rarely has sex, then the long-term expectation of sex is low. But, the special occasion expectations become high. Valentine's Day becomes a make or break holiday. If not then, perhaps never again. But I don't have much sympathy for wife #2 who wants a very low frequency of sex, and then complains that there are hopes and dreams of sex on birthdays and anniversaries.



Dr. Rockstar said:


> If a person expects their spouse to have sex with them just because, it means that they believe the spouse is either ready for sex the same time as that person, or that it doesn't matter how they feel about it. A person should have a voice in whether or not they want to have sex. There's another word for the logical extension of that reasoning, but I'm not going to use it here.


Again, it's an issue of a short term situation versus a long term situation. Most men, including myself, want our wives to enjoy our sex lives and want to have sex. At the same time, we have no problem if our wives aren't feeling it on a particular night, so they offer to make it all about us. Indeed, a bit of the latter can help enhance the former. It certainly shows a deep love when a wife can enthusiastically perform for her husband when all she gets out of it is making him feel good.



Dr. Rockstar said:


> And--just to clarify--I'm not talking about a wife's obligation to her husband, but a conflict between any two partners.


Understood. But this thread is about a LD wife, which is the more common scenario. And I hate writing using "him/her", "one", and "whomsoever."


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

jaquen said:


> However the way she describes sex, the strong language and imagery, the notion that she is regularly, against her desires, submitting to sex in order to keep her husband, but is feeling pain, and emptiness, feels like a clear VIOLATION. This woman sounds like she is regularly submitting to an act that is hurtful to her, emotionally, and physically, an act that is violating her.


You're confusing two separate issues. The first issue is whether sex is voluntary. It clearly is. The fact that it's voluntary means it's not a violation and it's nowhere near rape.

The second issue is how the sex makes her feel. And the sex does seem to depress her. And that's tragic. But to say that a woman who feels depressed after having voluntary sex with a man has been violated, or possibly even raped is to cheapen the language of sexual crimes to point of meaninglessness. If a wife who willingly submitted to sex, but felt depressed afterward was raped, then what word should we ascribe to Jerry Sandusky's victims? We can't use rape because that applies to sad wives. We need a new word. Or, we can just keep rape for what it is and stop throwing it around willy nilly.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

He said it FEELS like a violation he didn't say it was. I've known women like this. They never said it was rape because yes it was consentual but they did in fact feel violated. My take is they say yes when they really meant no.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> He said it FEELS like a violation he didn't say it was. I've known women like this. They never said it was rape because yes it was consentual but they did in fact feel violated. My take is they say yes when they really meant no.


I understand. But saying that sex isn't rape, it just feels like rape isn't much of a difference. It's still an awful word to use in the wrong context.

In this thread, the sex was unfulfilling. It may have been unpleasant. And it seems to have been depressing. But it was nothing in the neighborhood of rape, or sexual violation.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

honeysuckle rose said:


> Of course, it wouldn't sound overly stressful to you BECAUSE you're a man. If the wind blows just right, you're ready to go (hyperbolic, yes - hope you smiled).
> 
> I have an orgasms (sometimes 2) every time I have sex w/ my partner. It makes him feel soooo good to be close to me and makes him feel connected to me. All of which is good for him. It used to be good for me too, but sadly no more.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input Honeysuckle Rose. Good to read.

I do think you need to talk to your husband though, as it sounds like you have unclear understanding of when he is needing sex and isn't. I know if my fiancee's friend died, I wouldn't care if it had been 3 months, I'd have parked my needs for another few days/week/whatever. Somethings are more important than sex, and life and death is definately one of them. Don't assume your husband needs sex inspite of what you are going through (and I'd submit even if he did, he certainly didn't need it 4 times in three days). He may actually have felt that you needed sex to cope with the lose. I know when my dad died, I wanted sex a bit more often afterwards as well, but that was because I was feeling lonely and wanted that special connection I get during sex with my fiancee. Maybe he felt you needed it as well.



jaquen said:


> You seem to be looking at sex as something that a woman lets you have if you're lucky, something she allows you to do, if you're "good", and push the right buttons, and jump through the right hoops.


Actually, not at all. I used to think this way with my ex-wife, and she totally took advantage of it. In my current relationship, I view sex as a need and a right in marriage, not just some treat for being a good boy. It's why I tried to push aside my sexual frustration in my marriage as just my problem, or soemthing all men go through. Now, I'm not doing that, and have, and will, speak my mind on the issue. Despite my marriage and my current relationship though, I still consider myself a sexually stunted person. This stems from having only one partner in my life before my marriage, and then being married to a sexually manipulative wife for a decade. I'm 35, but I feel like a 15-year-old when it comes to actual understanding of needs/wants/desires/rights pertaining to sex as I have had almost no guidance in the matter. I refuse to make the same mistake again however, and that's why I'm here, to try and get some insight into what really goes on in a good marriage sexually.



jaquen said:


> Brother you need to do some serious self work and find a way to pull yourself together. If your insecurities stem from some outward flaw, like a obesity for instance, do what you can to correct that. If you're fat, lazy, and out of shape you might be shocked by how much your perception, behavior, and expectations radically change when you build a healthy, attractive body to be proud of.
> 
> If it's more an internal issue, please try and do some self work and find a counselor or psychologist to work through the issues. Get to the heart and root of why you feel so insecure and unattractive.


I agree, my self-esteem is a big issue for me, and not just sexually. I don't believe it's an outward flaw (I'm not the most handsome man ever, and could lose a few pounds, but I'm not ugly either), but rather an inward flaw. I'm not really sure where it comes from, as I was a much more secure person when i was younger, but I've always been somewhat insecure for various reasons. My terrible marriage only made the problem quadruple though.

You aren't even married, but are taking a TON of crap from your fiance already, and it's likely because you might not even realize you deserve better. Because if you can find a way to feel sexually virile, masculine, strong, and empowered, you'd be shocked at what kind of mess you will NOT ALLOW in your life, from you fiance or anyone for that matter.



jaquen said:


> You are buried alive. You have allowed your self image, and sense of worth, to be ground into dust. Your problems are far more potent right now than whether your fiance puts out enough or not. Until you can find a way to reconcile with the man in the mirror, it won't matter much what she does.


Well put and I agree.



momtwo4 said:


> Jaquen, her response was posted in an effort to explain to men why some women sometimes find sex stressful instead of relaxing and something they are always in the mood for.
> 
> I don't think it is fair of you to tell her that she should live alone because she doesn't always find sex an enjoyable experience. As you know, marriage involves more than sex. She loves her husband, she knows he needs sex, and so she chooses to fulfill that need for him. This is not rape. Rape occurs when you are forced to have sex. This poster is not forced. She has made an active _decision_ to have sex with her husband to preserve her marriage.


I'm not disagreeing with you Momtwo4, just adding my two cents of how I feel, as a man. If my partner doesn't want sex, I've told her to tell me. I don't want her lying to me about it either.

The reason is, I believe that if a woman (or man if your partner is a man) doesn't want sex but has sex anyways, that is sex against her will. Having sex against ones will is essentially what rape is. To have sex with someone when you don't want to is basically what rape is, technically. I don't mean to downplay the word rape, and I understand how someone would view that as downplaying the word rape, but that's how I view it if I guilt, coherce or talk my fiancee into doing something she really doesn't want to do. I'd feel like I 'forced' myself onto her, not in the physical sense but mentally or emotionally. I don't want that, not only because I value my fiancee greatly, but also because I don't want myself to be associated with something of that nature.

Once again, I'm not trying to overplay the use of the word rape, or downplay what others would classify as 'true' rape situations (such as Sandusky), it's just how I feel about the issue, inside my own head, towards my own relationship.



Toffer said:


> A number of men here (women too I guess) refer to this kind of sex as "chore" sex. It's just another item on the LD spouse's To Do list that needs to be done and checked off as soon as possible. Believe it or not, with most men this eventually becomes stale and unfulfilling


Yes, chore sex is downright degrading. When one has about as much enthusiasm towards raking leaves or dusting under furniture as they do towards having sex with you, it is massively unfulfilling and immensely hurtful. I don't want a partner that really couldn't care less whether they were with me sexually or flipping the TV remote, that's what I have a hand for.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> Kingsfan,
> Do you feel that this rejection has been creeping into other areas of your life - like self esteem for instance? Confidence? Overall "manly" feelings.


Yes, big time.

I think after my marriage finally ended, that was already there in spades. I felt lowly, unattractive, undesireable, unworthy, etc. My marriage did a number on me.

When I ended up with my current fiancee, like most relationships, the sex was great at first. She was after me on a regular basis, and man, the wonders that did for my self-esteem and confidence! I felt like Brad Pitt or George Clooney, like I was the alpha male and king of the world, all because my woman wanted me BAD. It was one of only a few times in my entire life a woman wanted me like that, and it felt great. It was awesome. I felt like a million bucks.

I just wish that would have lasted. It didn't last with my ex-wife either. So either it was a bait and switch issue (definately was with my ex-wife) or it's an issue relating to attraction, self-esteem, or something else.

My fiancee says it's not attraction, and I have no reason to think she's lying to me about that. I still want to get to the bottom of it because I want to feel like how I felt years ago when we first started dating. I've never felt better and like more of a man than I did then. I miss that now.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

King,

Again you must be pulling chapters from my book:

"I know when my dad died, I wanted sex a bit more often afterwards as well, but that was because I was feeling lonely and wanted that special connection I get during sex with my fiancee."

I went through the EXACT same thing when my dad died 6 years ago! I don't think that my wife thought it was appropriate and anyways, I was pretty busy helping my mom with all the arrangements

"the sex was great at first. She was after me on a regular basis, and man, the wonders that did for my self-esteem and confidence! I felt like Brad Pitt or George Clooney, like I was the alpha male and king of the world, all because my woman wanted me BAD."

While I know my wife is very low on the intiating side, there have been times (about twice this year) where she did intiate and I too felt like a king and that she not only loved me, she desired me! That goes a long way in my book!

Obviously, it would be great if she did intiate more but I'm not holding out hope for that. I just wish my failure rate was lower!


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Toffer said:


> King,
> 
> Again you must be pulling chapters from my book:


Could you send me the next chapter or two... or dozen


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Wanted to also mention that age your ripe old age of 35, you still have TONS of options open to you that I don't have (I'm 15 yrs older than you)

You need to think long and hard (pardon the pun ) before you marry this woman.

This is a conversation to have now and see if it keeps up to the pace you want for the next 2 years before you take that final plunge!


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> You're confusing two separate issues. The first issue is whether sex is voluntary. It clearly is. The fact that it's voluntary means it's not a violation and it's nowhere near rape.
> 
> The second issue is how the sex makes her feel. And the sex does seem to depress her. And that's tragic. But to say that a woman who feels depressed after having voluntary sex with a man has been violated, or possibly even raped is to cheapen the language of sexual crimes to point of meaninglessness. If a wife who willingly submitted to sex, but felt depressed afterward was raped, then what word should we ascribe to Jerry Sandusky's victims? We can't use rape because that applies to sad wives. We need a new word. Or, we can just keep rape for what it is and stop throwing it around willy nilly.


I am not confused. I never said the woman was raped.

I said "*It feels like* you're, on some level, *describing* a repeated *rape experience*."

The strength of the language, the adjectives she's using, the tone of her post, remind ME of rape. It sounds to ME like a woman who is describing a sexual violation, a coercion, on some level feeling she HAS to give sex, or else...

I am not calling this woman's husband a rapist. I am not saying this woman is a rape victim. I am simply saying that her OP came off to me as someone who is describing a rape/forced/coerced sex experience.

And no, I do not throw the word "rape" around willy nilly. I have people very close to my heart in my life who have been sexually molested and raped, which is partly why I find the tone of that woman's post alarming.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

jaquen said:


> I am not confused. I never said the woman was raped.
> 
> I said "*It feels like* you're, on some level, *describing* a repeated *rape experience*."


Give me a break. I've been speaking and reading English all my life. I'm pretty damned good at it by now.

Tell me something. If I say that reading your posts *kind of* reminds me of someone who, *on some level*, is an idiot, would you be offended? Or did my qualifiers water it down enough for you? You would probably be offended. The word idiot is a strong word. It's too strong to use "kind of" in front of and change the meaning. You can be kind of hungry. You can't be kind of an idiot. Just like you can't be kind of raped.



jaquen said:


> The strength of the language, the adjectives she's using, the tone of her post, remind ME of rape. It sounds to ME like a woman who is describing a sexual violation, a coercion, on some level feeling she HAS to give sex, or else...


That's why I stated that you were confused. A woman has described having voluntary sex with her husband, and you're reminded of rape. That's confusion.



jaquen said:


> I am not calling this woman's husband a rapist. I am not saying this woman is a rape victim. I am simply saying that her OP came off to me as someone who is describing a rape/forced/coerced sex experience.


You keep using the word rape to describe the woman's posts. But you're not calling her husband a rapist. So who, exactly, rapes people? Aren't rapists the ones raping people? Isn't a rapist, by definition, someone who rapes another?

You can't have it both ways. Either the woman was raped, or she wasn't. From what she's relayed in her posts, no reasonable person could conclude that she was raped. Not even kind of raped.



jaquen said:


> And no, I do not throw the word "rape" around willy nilly. I have people very close to my heart in my life who have been sexually molested and raped, which is partly why I find the tone of that woman's post alarming.


Were they actually raped? Or did they have voluntary sex and regret it the next morning? There is a difference. That's the danger of using the word rape indiscriminately the way you do. By using the word to refer to both consentual and nonconsentual sex, we can't know which you mean.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

You can debate until the foundations of the Earth rip open, and Jesus Christ cracks the sky, it will not change the impression and the feeling that the woman's post evoked in me. You can't debate my gut feelings away.

If you don't think her post reminded you of a sexual violation, than so be it. But I used the words exactly as I intended, exactly as the post struck me, and I will no back down from the usage of a single word I used in my posts.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dr. R,
I apologize in advance - my social filter rapidly degrades when I combine alcohol and fatigue. 

My W's birthday is ALL ABOUT HER - as it should be. It is her birthday. 

My birthday needs to be ALL ABOUT ME. I am not going to debate this point. With you, my W or anyone else. 

I share a house - a home - an emotional space - with a an emotionally more powerful partner. I say this with no shame, embarrassment or anger. It just is. 

That said, while I happily make it "all about her most of the time". When the needle moves to a certain point it is time to ask a very sincere question - is it better to be alone for a while than totally taken for granted. I know what the answer is for me. 

If having sex with me on my birthday is TOO stressful for darling to deal with - then we have reached a VERY bad place. Glad that has never happened. 

Thing is - I really don't think about my birthday with any sort of sexual anticipation. I guess if I did that would say something very sad about our marriage........

If you have to wait for a special occasion to get laid, the "marriage" has already left the building. 



Dr. Rockstar said:


> I don't think I was saying that at all. At least I hope not.
> 
> Let me put it this way: I just went back and re-read the beginning of this thread and my original post. Some of the early posters said that a person was expected to give it up on special occasions. Flip that around and look at it from the other side. Following that thought to its natural conclusion, the other person is obligated to give it up fora nice dinner and dancing? In my mind that isn't following through on a marriage vow or even reciprocation. That's repayment for services rendered. Please forgive my language, because I can't think of a better phrase, but that means that the second partner is essentially wh**ing himself or herself out for a nice time.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

you are marrying her - you have already told her in the single most powerful way possible that this is how you "deserve" to be treated. And now you are going to try to "talk about it" for the 100th time. Hmmmm

Postpone the wedding INDEFINITELY. When she asks why - tell her you aren't sure you are both committed at the level needed to make it work. And then shut up. Seriously. SHUT UP. Let HER talk. Let HER ask questions. Just keep saying it just doesn't FEEL right. 

You have now taught two women in a row how to treat you badly. 




kingsfan said:


> Yes, big time.
> 
> I think after my marriage finally ended, that was already there in spades. I felt lowly, unattractive, undesireable, unworthy, etc. My marriage did a number on me.
> 
> ...


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

kingsfan said:


> I know exactly what you mean.
> 
> My fiancee and I were having a talk the other day and I had mentioned how I really like these soft, deep kisses she gives me from time to time. The kind that can say all by themselves 'I love you.'
> 
> ...


This could have been written by me when I was married; that sounds exactly like my situation. The thing is, I wasn't in a totally sexless marriage; my wife was in the mood sometimes, and would initiate, so I know she wasn't totally turned off by sex with me, but I never knew what turned her on. Yes, I did ask, but she didn't even know. I don't think the same thing ever turned her on twice. It reminds me of a funny line from a tv show where the guy tells his wife something like, "What is romance? Tell me what you need; I don't know. You got excited once when I brought home a bucket of chicken!!" 

I've never shared this here before, but I remember the most passionate sex that my wife ever initiated was the night my Uncle passed away several years ago and we saw him lying dead in the hospital. The only thing I could figure was that maybe it was just a dose of reality for her and she realized you could lose somebody at any time, and she wanted to feel close to me. I don't know???


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> This is assuming you and your partner are of course feeling well and all of that.
> 
> Last night, me and the fiancee were at home, alone. To put this in context, we have four boys who live at home, the oldest being 16, youngest five. We also had our daughter, 20, recently stay with us for a month after she moved out of her apartment before moving to another city. To say we rarely have the house to ourselves is an understatement. I'd say we are truly 'alone' in the house maybe 3-5 times a year.
> 
> ...


fiance.
she dont put out
get rid of her.
problem solved.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Read what happens in wars after a town gets bombed. People fuvk like crazy. They see death and destruction all round them and wish to create life.





southbound said:


> This could have been written by me when I was married; that sounds exactly like my situation. The thing is, I wasn't in a totally sexless marriage; my wife was in the mood sometimes, and would initiate, so I know she wasn't totally turned off by sex with me, but I never knew what turned her on. Yes, I did ask, but she didn't even know. I don't think the same thing ever turned her on twice. It reminds me of a funny line from a tv show where the guy tells his wife something like, "What is romance? Tell me what you need; I don't know. You got excited once when I brought home a bucket of chicken!!"
> 
> I've never shared this here before, but I remember the most passionate sex that my wife ever initiated was the night my Uncle passed away several years ago and we saw him lying dead in the hospital. The only thing I could figure was that maybe it was just a dose of reality for her and she realized you could lose somebody at any time, and she wanted to feel close to me. I don't know???


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

I do not even know how to reply to this. here is the deal. I have no clue after 26 years of marriage about signals, signs, or hints. Honestly I give up. I love being intimate with my wife and when it happens 99% of the time it is anywhere from intense to wild monkey sex. 

At the end of the day though I just cannot figure her out any longer and at this point I am quite apathetic about it. In other news I am getting quite familiar with my right hand although I am considering cheating with my left.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

RClawson said:


> I do not even know how to reply to this. here is the deal. I have no clue after 26 years of marriage about signals, signs, or hints. Honestly I give up. I love being intimate with my wife and when it happens 99% of the time it is anywhere from intense to wild monkey sex.
> 
> At the end of the day though I just cannot figure her out any longer and at this point I am quite apathetic about it. In other news I am getting quite familiar with my right hand although I am considering cheating with my left.


I can relate. I was married for 18 years and never knew what turned my wife on, or anything about signals, or anything else. I did understand the signal, "I'm not in the mood," but aside from that I didn't have a clue, and I don't think even she understood what turned her on. She was never able to tell me, so what do you do? 

We could go out for a nice evening and she would volunteer how handsome I was, she loved my cologne, and she loved the shirt I had on. We go out to a great evening, but she's not in the mood later. I bring home a pizza two weeks later and she's undressing before the last slice is eaten.(a little sarcasm there, but you get the drift). 

Sometimes she would go to bed exhausted and then suddenly initiate. During conversation the next day she might let me know that she thought it was sweet that I rolled over and put my arm around her and that got her in the mood. I'm thinking, uh...I do that every night. I wonder why it had no affect all the other nights?


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

In answer to the thread title:

Yes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

Clarification to my honeymoon sex post. I didn't type that clearly, so what I meant wasn't conveyed properly.

I didn't have any issues at all w/ honeymoon sex and of course it would be expected by both parties involved, I would imagine. I can't contemplate that a woman would not expect to have sex on the first night of marriage.

My reference to sulking was about after his two-week return. He does love me and that's how he feels close to me.

Thank you Kingsfan for your comments and profoundly moving experience about how you feel rejected and your self-esteem suffers because you don't receive the closeness and love in the way you need.

I think a lot of women are oblivious to that. It doesn't compute because some of us don't connect in that way. Sex isn't our primary Love Language.

I think if more women actually sat down w/ their hubbies and heard the vulnerability and pain in being turned down time after time when all you want is to feel love, I would pray it would transform your relationship.

Good luck to you, brother!


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> you are marrying her - you have already told her in the single most powerful way possible that this is how you "deserve" to be treated. And now you are going to try to "talk about it" for the 100th time. Hmmmm


100th time? Where in the world did you pull that from, because it certainly wasn't my posts.

I have also never told her in any shape or form this is how I derseve to be treated, and if I felt like I deserved it, I sure wouldn't be talking to her about it.



MEM11363 said:


> You have now taught two women in a row how to treat you badly.


Completely incorrect. I have taught ONE woman how to treat me badly, and that was my ex-wife who I will completely admit to anyone who asks that I let her walk all over me. The reason I am here, and the reason I am talking to my fiancee about this, and the reason I am prepared to walk away from my engagement if I'm not going to get what I need from this marriage is because I refuse to get walked all over again and be treated badly in any shape or form. I am frustrated, I am confused, but I am not without a backbone on this issue anymore. If I had no spine, I wouldn't be here seeking feedback which I aim to use to better explain where I'm coming from as a man on this issue.



honeysuckle rose said:


> Clarification to my honeymoon sex post. I didn't type that clearly, so what I meant wasn't conveyed properly.
> 
> I didn't have any issues at all w/ honeymoon sex and of course it would be expected by both parties involved, I would imagine. I can't contemplate that a woman would not expect to have sex on the first night of marriage.
> 
> ...


Thank you as well honeysuckle rose for your input. It was refreshing to read what a woman had to say on the issue of sex during times when it's not wanted by her. I had often wondered what was going through her head, but reading it from an independant person helps to put it in perspective better. I hope you and your H can reconnect this way as well and find a better middle ground sexually to appease both of you.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

jaquen said:


> You can debate until the foundations of the Earth rip open, and Jesus Christ cracks the sky, it will not change the impression and the feeling that the woman's post evoked in me. You can't debate my gut feelings away.
> 
> If you don't think her post reminded you of a sexual violation, than so be it. But I used the words exactly as I intended, exactly as the post struck me, and I will no back down from the usage of a single word I used in my posts.


I'm sorry. This is the classic man and woman talking past each other. You were discussing your feelings. I was discussing reality. Obviously the two aren't related.

Of course, she wasn't raped. She doesn't contend that she was. And nothing in her posts relate the facts required for a rape. Fortunately, rape laws in this country only consider the facts of the crime and not either party's feelings after the fact.

That's because feelings are fickle. They can change. They can be manipulated. They can be wrong. They can be stupid. Facts and information are immutable. Did the Battle of Hastings occur in 1066, or do you feel like it happened in another year?


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

kingsfan said:


> I have also never told her in any shape or form this is how I derseve to be treated, and if I felt like I deserved it, I sure wouldn't be talking to her about it.


I don't want to speak for MEM, but I think he was talking about nonverbal communication. Women have a much higher capacity for nonverbal communication then men do. So, let me play devil's advocate here and take your girlfriend's side for a moment. You began dating and had sex frequently. Then, after a while, the frequency began to decline and she began to reject you more. And you didn't complain. You even asked her to marry you. She continued to reject you more and more until you are now rejected more often than not. And you still haven't complained. And you haven't called off the wedding. She even went so far as to tell you that she would be happy to kiss you more, as long as it wouldn't lead to sex, and you accepted that reasoning without comment.

Nonverbally, you are communicating that the status quo is acceptable to you. Women understand actions more than words. And your actions, by allowing her to reject you often, indicate that you're satisfied being rejected.



kingsfan said:


> Completely incorrect. I have taught ONE woman how to treat me badly, and that was my ex-wife who I will completely admit to anyone who asks that I let her walk all over me.


I disagree here. There is a saying that people treat you the way you allow them to treat you. We all teach others how to treat us every day. Our lives are full of constant social interactions with others. We are not brick walls that others just beat balls off of. We are mirrors. We reflect others and they reflect us. You have said that all of your sexual partners have treated you poorly. Unless you have dated a steady stream of psychopaths, the common denominator there is you.

So, you need to run the MAP. You need to stop accepting bad treatment from women. You need to start expecting sex.

Good luck.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> I don't want to speak for MEM, but I think he was talking about nonverbal communication. Women have a much higher capacity for nonverbal communication then men do. So, let me play devil's advocate here and take your girlfriend's side for a moment. You began dating and had sex frequently. Then, after a while, the frequency began to decline and she began to reject you more. And you didn't complain. You even asked her to marry you. She continued to reject you more and more until you are now rejected more often than not. And you still haven't complained. And you haven't called off the wedding. She even went so far as to tell you that she would be happy to kiss you more, as long as it wouldn't lead to sex, and you accepted that reasoning without comment.
> 
> Nonverbally, you are communicating that the status quo is acceptable to you. Women understand actions more than words. And your actions, by allowing her to reject you often, indicate that you're satisfied being rejected.


I'll try to give a rough idea of how things have gone, sexually, and what was done about it (by me).

When we first started seeing each other, the sex was frequent as I said. I don't recall how often because we both were single but had kids at home in each home, so it wasn't as often as we actually wanted. I'd estimate a few times a week with extras, but the desire was there about 5-7 times a week (or more, I'm not entirely sure, but minimum 5-7 a week in terms of heavy makeouts, touching, etc. whatever we could 'sneak in' with kids possibly coming around the corner).

After about 2 years, I had to give up where I was living, so we moved in together for about 11 months. During this time, she was also living with her mother, whose room was right beside ours, with a very thin wall. Additionally, for a few months my youngest son was sleeping in our room until we could get things situated better. Sex dropped down to about once every 2-3 weeks.

After I moved out into my own place again, the sex didn't pick up at all. This carried on for a while, and then one day I sat down with her and said that this isn't what I want, I am not happy, and I'm not going to stay forever in a relationship where sex is not on the table very often. I did this once already, I'm not doing it again. I pretty much said it exactly that way as well (just in a polite tone. I'm not going to get mad about it, just state my point and leave it at that).

Within a month of that conversation, the sex picked up to about 2x a week, and about 5 months later we ended up buying a place together. After we bought the house, sex picked up to about 3-4x a week. 

It's now been two years and a bit since we bought the house, and the sex has dropped back down again to between 1-2x a week. The odd week it's 3x a week, but that's rare, and likely not because she's 'in the mood.' 1x a week is far more common that 3x. 

My problem thus has come and gone throughout our relationship. It wasn't an issue at the beginning and wasn't an issue after we talked or after we bought our house. But there is always a drop off eventually. The additional problem I am now finding is that while she's in a bit of a downswing, I'm in a major upswing. Where as before I wanted it 3-4x a week and was fine with 2x a week, now I'm finding I'm craving it about 5x a week. I've noticed since we got engaged in April, that my desire has risen up. I'm not sure if that's due to a desire for emotional closeness through sex which comes from being engaged, but the timing to me indicates this.

So, in answer to your post, there hasn't been a steady decline in sex in our relationship. There's been a steady ebb and flow to it though, and one which I want to get sorted out before commiting to marriage. I also haven't sat back and readily accepted whatever limitations she's suggestion on our sex life either and simply said I'm ok with them. I do feel I can be more vocal about my needs, I 100% agree there, but I have not been mute when discussing my needs and wants sexually.

As for the other part of your post I didn't quote, I do agree I am the common denominator (I think I said that earlier) and I want to fix that part of me.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> I'm sorry. This is the classic man and woman talking past each other. You were discussing your feelings. I was discussing reality. Obviously the two aren't related.
> 
> Of course, she wasn't raped. She doesn't contend that she was. And nothing in her posts relate the facts required for a rape. Fortunately, rape laws in this country only consider the facts of the crime and not either party's feelings after the fact.
> 
> That's because feelings are fickle. They can change. They can be manipulated. They can be wrong. They can be stupid. Facts and information are immutable. Did the Battle of Hastings occur in 1066, or do you feel like it happened in another year?


And thankfully I never said the woman was raped. A point that seems to continue to escape you no matter how many times I, or others, reiterate that. Bottom line, a person doesn't have to actually be raped to "feel" raped, coerced, or violated. That is the point, that her description come off as if she "feels" violated. That's what I was addressing. Your crusade to define the legal definition of rape is totally inconsequential to my original point. Some seemed to have no problem getting that.

This is a dead end, moot point. Your indignation on this matter is falling on deaf ears. I spoke of the impression this woman's posts left me with, and that has not changed. She is still posting in this thread, and if she feels the need to clarify, that's on her, not you.



kingsfan said:


> It's now been two years and a bit since we bought the house, and the sex has dropped back down again to between 1-2x a week. The odd week it's 3x a week, but that's rare, and likely not because she's 'in the mood.' 1x a week is far more common that 3x.


It's always interesting how relative these discussions are. There are people on this board who would murder their entire block for 1-2x a week. :rofl:


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

jaquen said:


> And thankfully I never said the woman was raped. A point that seems to continue to escape you no matter how many times I, or others, reiterate that.


She also didn't say that she's a ham sandwich. But if her post made me think about ham sandwiches, should I post continuously about it? And don't argue that there's no connection between ham sandwiches and her post. We're just talking about my feelings.



jaquen said:


> Bottom line, a person doesn't have to actually be raped to "feel" raped, coerced, or violated. That is the point, that her description come off as if she "feels" violated. That's what I was addressing. Your crusade to define the legal definition of rape is totally inconsequential to my original point. Some seemed to have no problem getting that.


No. My point is about the dumbing down of language. You used the word rape to discuss something that isn't rape. That isn't helpful to anybody. And people who try to expand the definition of rape to include sad feelings are actually very dangerous. While I certainly want to punish actual rapists, I absolutely don't want to arrest a man whose only crime was having voluntary sex with an emotionally unstable woman who believes that her feelings are more important than his rights.

You can certainly address a woman's reluctance to have sex, or the fact that the act leads to feelings of depression without using such inflammatory language as rape, coercion, and violation. Most have no problem understanding that.



jaquen said:


> This is a dead end, moot point.


Obviously.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

jaquen said:


> It's always interesting how relative these discussions are. There are people on this board who would murder their entire block for 1-2x a week. :rofl:


Oh I'm quite congisent of that fact. There was a time in my life (when I was with my ex) that if someone would have told me I'd be disappointed in 1-2x a week, I'd have wanted to build a time machine to come here and kick my own ass.

That said, I'm in a different situation now, and I also love this woman a **** load more than my ex-wife. Even though I complain at times here, my sex life now is much better than with my ex, and more broad as well. That said, I think that is why I want sex more than I did with the ex as well, I have much more love for my fiancee than ever for my ex-wife. 

I think it all boils done to need, not what so and so is getting. We each need to express our love to the extent we feel it and because I love my fiancee much more than I ever loved my ex-wife, I feel the need to express it more in my way. My way unfortunately for me involves sex.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> No. My point is about the dumbing down of language. You used the word rape to discuss something that isn't rape. That isn't helpful to anybody. And people who try to expand the definition of rape to include sad feelings are actually very dangerous. While I certainly want to punish actual rapists, I absolutely don't want to arrest a man whose only crime was having voluntary sex with an emotionally unstable woman who believes that her feelings are more important than his rights.\


What amazes me about how obtuse you're being, is that we already agree. The post wasn't designed to blame him at all, which was already reiterate. The post was designed to highlight how violated, and coerced, SHE was describing her experience to be, and a note that perhaps, if she's feeling that way, she should be involved in a relationship where sex wasn't expected, or alone. That there was something off putting, and wrong, about how violating sex with her spouse seemed to be, based off her description.

Not a single one of my posts were about blaming men for the behavior of an "unstable woman who believes that her feelings are more important than his rights". I am a man, that would be foolish, and absurd. 

You are so hell bent on selling out your Righteous Indignation World Tour that you're preaching vehemently to the already converted choir.



kingsfan said:


> Oh I'm quite congisent of that fact. There was a time in my life (when I was with my ex) that if someone would have told me I'd be disappointed in 1-2x a week, I'd have wanted to build a time machine to come here and kick my own ass.
> 
> That said, I'm in a different situation now, and I also love this woman a **** load more than my ex-wife. Even though I complain at times here, my sex life now is much better than with my ex, and more broad as well. That said, I think that is why I want sex more than I did with the ex as well, I have much more love for my fiancee than ever for my ex-wife.
> 
> I think it all boils done to need, not what so and so is getting. We each need to express our love to the extent we feel it and because I love my fiancee much more than I ever loved my ex-wife, I feel the need to express it more in my way. My way unfortunately for me involves sex.


Oh trust me, I get it. 1x a week, week after week, wouldn't be nearly enough for us either.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

King,
Let me start by apologizing for coming across antagonistically - not my intent.

Let me net this out for you in a constructive way: your "rejection" rate is shortly to become a huge problem. The two of you have adopted a mode where it is your job to initiate and hers to solely say yes or no. Very bad dynamic. She doesn't have to initiate: she does however have to give you a clear signal that says: I am open to it or not open to it. When she rejects you - frequently it DOES lower her respect for you. And yours for you.

OTE=kingsfan;956612]I'll try to give a rough idea of how things have gone, sexually, and what was done about it (by me).

When we first started seeing each other, the sex was frequent as I said. I don't recall how often because we both were single but had kids at home in each home, so it wasn't as often as we actually wanted. I'd estimate a few times a week with extras, but the desire was there about 5-7 times a week (or more, I'm not entirely sure, but minimum 5-7 a week in terms of heavy makeouts, touching, etc. whatever we could 'sneak in' with kids possibly coming around the corner).

After about 2 years, I had to give up where I was living, so we moved in together for about 11 months. During this time, she was also living with her mother, whose room was right beside ours, with a very thin wall. Additionally, for a few months my youngest son was sleeping in our room until we could get things situated better. Sex dropped down to about once every 2-3 weeks.

After I moved out into my own place again, the sex didn't pick up at all. This carried on for a while, and then one day I sat down with her and said that this isn't what I want, I am not happy, and I'm not going to stay forever in a relationship where sex is not on the table very often. I did this once already, I'm not doing it again. I pretty much said it exactly that way as well (just in a polite tone. I'm not going to get mad about it, just state my point and leave it at that).

Within a month of that conversation, the sex picked up to about 2x a week, and about 5 months later we ended up buying a place together. After we bought the house, sex picked up to about 3-4x a week. 

It's now been two years and a bit since we bought the house, and the sex has dropped back down again to between 1-2x a week. The odd week it's 3x a week, but that's rare, and likely not because she's 'in the mood.' 1x a week is far more common that 3x. 

My problem thus has come and gone throughout our relationship. It wasn't an issue at the beginning and wasn't an issue after we talked or after we bought our house. But there is always a drop off eventually. The additional problem I am now finding is that while she's in a bit of a downswing, I'm in a major upswing. Where as before I wanted it 3-4x a week and was fine with 2x a week, now I'm finding I'm craving it about 5x a week. I've noticed since we got engaged in April, that my desire has risen up. I'm not sure if that's due to a desire for emotional closeness through sex which comes from being engaged, but the timing to me indicates this.

So, in answer to your post, there hasn't been a steady decline in sex in our relationship. There's been a steady ebb and flow to it though, and one which I want to get sorted out before commiting to marriage. I also haven't sat back and readily accepted whatever limitations she's suggestion on our sex life either and simply said I'm ok with them. I do feel I can be more vocal about my needs, I 100% agree there, but I have not been mute when discussing my needs and wants sexually.

As for the other part of your post I didn't quote, I do agree I am the common denominator (I think I said that earlier) and I want to fix that part of me.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

jaquen said:


> The post wasn't designed to blame him at all, which was already reiterate. The post was designed to highlight how violated, and coerced, SHE was describing her experience to be, ...


This is where your confusion is most pronounced. SHE never described her experience to be violative, or coercive. YOU did. In fact, in her first post, she wrote, "He didn't make me." And you responded to that post by introducing the word "rape" to the thread.

Now, a rape requires a rapist. There's no other possibility. So it would be very stupid to suggest that a woman was raped, but there was no rapist.

So, I suggest that you invest in a dictionary. Because only the obtuse believe that the phrase, "He didn't make me," is congruent with rape.



jaquen said:


> Not a single one of my posts were about blaming men for the behavior of an "unstable woman who believes that her feelings are more important than his rights". I am a man, that would be foolish, and absurd.


Your posts were about how rape doesn't really need to be rape. That you can call all kinds of nonrapey things rape based on how you feel about them. Once you've expanded the definition of rape beyond an issue of consent to consider the feelings of people involved, then you've pretty much opened Pandora's Box, which would be tragic for the sexual partners of emotionally unstable women. And I do agree that it's foolish and absurd.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> This is where your confusion is most pronounced. SHE never described her experience to be violative, or coercive. YOU did. In fact, in her first post, she wrote, "He didn't make me." And you responded to that post by introducing the word "rape" to the thread.
> 
> Now, a rape requires a rapist. There's no other possibility. So it would be very stupid to suggest that a woman was raped, but there was no rapist.
> 
> ...


OK.

(I hope that's dumbed down enough for you)


----------



## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

I think you guys are arguing about how many angels fit on the head of a pin.

I imagine this is the language Jaquen focused on:



honeysuckle rose said:


> [snipped]
> 
> Maybe touch isn't our love language. But it's a LOT of effort and discomfort and stress for some women because if we aren't aroused enough, all the lube in the world isn't going to lift your cervix, which he will hit with the tip of his penis every time he thrusts. And that hurts - me anyway.
> 
> ...


And then it was said:



PHTlump said:


> This is where your confusion is most pronounced. SHE never described her experience to be violative, or coercive. YOU did.


OK, IMHO, you both have a point. HR did say he didn't _*make *_her. But she also said it was a hurtful invasion, that she had to submit when she didn't want to.

Personally, I wouldn't use the word "rape" in this context because I am sensitive to any usage that downplays what a violent, cruel act rape is. On the other hand, some of that language supports the conclusion that there was a feeling of unwilling submission and painful invasion.

Now that it's been beaten into the ground, by you guys and now me, maybe any further argument on this topic should go to PMs and we should go back to the OP's question.

Just a respectful suggestion.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> This is assuming you and your partner are of course feeling well and all of that.
> 
> Last night, me and the fiancee were at home, alone. To put this in context, we have four boys who live at home, the oldest being 16, youngest five. We also had our daughter, 20, recently stay with us for a month after she moved out of her apartment before moving to another city. To say we rarely have the house to ourselves is an understatement. I'd say we are truly 'alone' in the house maybe 3-5 times a year.
> 
> ...


No.

Under the circumstances sex might have been too tiring for her.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

PHT,
Exactly what I meant. Thank you for clarifying. 



PHTlump said:


> I don't want to speak for MEM, but I think he was talking about nonverbal communication. Women have a much higher capacity for nonverbal communication then men do. So, let me play devil's advocate here and take your girlfriend's side for a moment. You began dating and had sex frequently. Then, after a while, the frequency began to decline and she began to reject you more. And you didn't complain. You even asked her to marry you. She continued to reject you more and more until you are now rejected more often than not. And you still haven't complained. And you haven't called off the wedding. She even went so far as to tell you that she would be happy to kiss you more, as long as it wouldn't lead to sex, and you accepted that reasoning without comment.
> 
> Nonverbally, you are communicating that the status quo is acceptable to you. Women understand actions more than words. And your actions, by allowing her to reject you often, indicate that you're satisfied being rejected.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BRIGETTEDARIS (Aug 15, 2012)

Yes...def!! When either partner is in need for emotional or physical needs. SEX is IMPORTANT!!! No matter what!!!:smthumbup:


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## NaturalHeart (Nov 13, 2011)

No offense but the only way I'd not be interested with Romance while everyone is gone is if the loving is just like working on that puzzle-- Boring with too much concentrating trying to make it -make it happen.... 

Or if some unresolved issue was not addressed, never brought back up to resolve but company leave and its suppose to be romance time??

 *Some people can put it aside and enjoy the moment and some people have to have things resolved to be able to enjoy the moment*.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

If my kids were 20 and staying with us, they better not be light sleepers cuz it's gonna suck to be them hearing mom and dad going at it.


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## lovingsummer (Jul 27, 2012)

cheatinghubby said:


> If my kids were 20 and staying with us, they better not be light sleepers cuz it's gonna suck to be them hearing mom and dad going at it.


That's happened to me and my H... The kid's room that was closest to ours came knocking on the door saying "I'm trying to sleep" my H said "tough sh!t" and I chimed in with "go sleep in the living room then"... without skipping a beat (or errr.."stroke") :rofl:

My H had been gone for 2 weeks.. we had alot of making up to do...


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