# Reconciliation is a sign of love



## rubpy3 (Nov 19, 2013)

I came across this article.

What to Do When You Want to Forgive...But Can't - GoAskSuzie.com



> Here’s the beautiful truth.
> 
> True Love is unconditional, because it forgives unconditionally. It’s not about whether we’re capable of forgiving. The capacity exists within all of us. It always comes down to this: Are we willing to forgive?
> 
> ...


Basically, if we truly love our spouse, we will be able forgive them for everything. Wow. How naive. How idealistic. Talk about shifting blame: R doesn't happen, it's because the BS doesn't love WS enough.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Yes it is indeed bs. 

You can forgive and love your wayward spouse, but still leave them. I did.


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## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

if True Love is unconditional, then why WS(s) didn't love their spouses enough to not cheat on them?... because they didn't get what they need from their spouses. isn't that the reasons they keep saying. 
having an affair in the first place proves that love is in fact conditional at least in the minds of WS(s).


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

rubpy3 said:


> I came across this article.
> 
> What to Do When You Want to Forgive...But Can't - GoAskSuzie.com
> 
> ...


Yeah right. H*** no. What a ridiculous article. I'm sorry but you have to love and respect yourself first and foremost, or the so called reciprocal True Love cannot exist....


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I don't buy it. Cases can also be made that:
Reconciliation is a sign of fear of being alone;
Reconciliation is a sign of dysfunction;
Reconciliation is a sign of desperation; 
etc.


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## flabergasted (Jan 12, 2014)

illwill said:


> Yes it is indeed bs.
> 
> You can forgive and love your wayward spouse, but still leave them. I did.


Ditto


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## LaQueso (Dec 30, 2012)

I wasn't given the chance to R. My husband left me and our kids for his "truer love" the night I confronted him. A couple of days later after the POSOW told him to, he said he would come back, if I jumped through some hoops. I asked him to spend one night not at her house, anywhere else and he was too weak to do that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I so wish I could answer this...not just for my bs but for myself.
> I never stopped loving my husband...even though I was unfaithful to him. I think perhaps I loved myself more. So I was selfish and put my feelings before anyone else...my husband, my children, my parents...and my God.
> 
> It is a question I ask myself everyday. Who was that woman and what was she thinking that she would be so cruel to a very good man who loves her in spite of herself?


This is what I struggle with. How could my wife love me and do this to me. The only thing shes ever told me was during this time she loved me, but she just didnt like me. I guess thats her version of ILYBINILWY. 

She also says what you did that she was selfish and loved herself more than anyone else....She said she put her feelings about everyone else, including the kids.

May I ask, if its not to personal, what your mind frame was the night of your affair? This is what kills me the most, the premeditation. I dont know exactly what night it was, but I know she probably dressed very sexy, kissed the kids and I goodbye, and I probably told her to be careful and I loved her.

She knew what she was doing while she was getting dressed, then left the house, drove to the hotel and did what she did. How she could put me and the kids out of her mind in order to do what she did hurts more than the act of sex itself.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

The article speaks of unconditional love as if it were a good thing in a marriage. Unconditional love is a statement that "I will continue to love you, accept you, and be married to you, no matter how you treat me." In what universe would that be a good thing? How is that healthy? It's nothing more than enabling the WS to be wayward and the BS to be betrayed. That's not healthy for either party. No one should feel free to abuse their partner without expecting any consequences. No one should feel like they should accept abuse after abuse with no thought to changing that dynamic. Unconditional love in a marriage isn't the Holy Grail. It's a dangerous fairy tale. 

I loved my ex-husband completely. Past all sense and reason. Past all imagining of trust and devotion. And he cheated on me. I forgave him. He did it again. So, I forgave him again. And filed for divorce. My forgiveness didn't make him stop cheating, the lack of consequences for his actions it just invited more of the same. My divorcing him doesn't keep me from forgiving him, it just means I'm no longer willing to allow him to hurt me.


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I so wish I could answer this...not just for my bs but for myself.
> I never stopped loving my husband...even though I was unfaithful to him. I think perhaps I loved myself more. So I was selfish and put my feelings before anyone else...my husband, my children, my parents...and my God.
> 
> It is a question I ask myself everyday. Who was that woman and what was she thinking that she would be so cruel to a very good man who loves her in spite of herself?
> ...


This is a beautiful post, Mrs. Adams. The love you feel for him, and him for you shines out through all your words.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

A lot depends on your definition of love.

I define love as actions. What you do for someone is love to me. Feelings can change throughout a day, but your actions reveal who you love.

When a spouse cheats, they are not loving their spouse or children at all.

They are loving themselves, or more specifically their crotch, and hating their spouse and kids.

You can tell me you love me all you want while you put a lit cigarette out on my eye, but you would be a liar.

If you love someone, you don't murder and rape them emotionally with infidelity.

When someone cheats, they hate with their actions.

I don't buy the line of crap that when a woman behaves like a wh0re with OM that she really loves her husband and children. Likewise, a man degrading himself and betraying his family for his wanker, certainly is hating his family.

I think remorseful W's can learn to love, but they certainly were not loving when exploring OW birth canal or gargling with OM penis.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Phew, for a minute there, rupby, I thought you were subscribing to the premise of that article. What's missing here, of course, in the context of infidelity is the WS's willingness and effort to EARN forgiveness. This can sometimes take years.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

rubpy3 said:


> I came across this article.
> 
> What to Do When You Want to Forgive...But Can't - GoAskSuzie.com
> 
> ...


I'm sure there are many cases where the divorce is because the BS sees the affair as a 'get out of jail free' card.. I'm sure there are cases where the BS loves the WS, but just can't get past the affair.. I doubt you could R without a great love for the other person though, so that I feel is true. I just think D with great love for the other person, is just more painful but I understand either choice..


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> You are right my friend....maybe love is not the right word...care about? No that doesn't quite fit either does it? Like? Nope uhhh...gosh...what word would you use to describe how I felt about my husband and kids when I climbed into bed with a lowlife scum bucket so he could put another notch in his bedpost?
> 
> I am gonna stick with love....is that ok with you?
> 
> You know think you are swell...right?


Not trying to piss anyone off. I think infidelity is brutal and ugly and I use brutal and ugly terminology to describe it.

I was also giving my definition of love and hate, both are actions in my book.

I believe people can change and learn, but no one will ever convince me that while committing one of the most underhanded, back stabbing actions, that they were loving there spouse and children.

W's can learn to love after their affair is over and they have worked their butts off, but in my definition, they are hating, not loving, with adulterous behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

I find "forgiveness" to be quite a ridiculous and unrealistic concept. 
I don't even see why we need it. 
Who and what is it for? 
It won't help the pain which will be there forever unless we have a lobotomy. I suppose it might help the WS. Big deal.
After D-day, BS has to decide if they will do R or not. 
Whether they do R or not, they then have to try and file the hurt away so that it doesn't dominate the rest of their lives. Some BS manage to, others don't.
BS should not say, "I forgive you". 
Why should they? For what?
Much better to say, "You were a real jerk to do that." 
Forget forgiveness. 
End of story.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> You are right my friend....maybe love is not the right word...care about? No that doesn't quite fit either does it? Like? Nope uhhh...gosh...what word would you use to describe how I felt about my husband and kids when I climbed into bed with a lowlife scum bucket so he could put another notch in his bedpost?
> 
> I am gonna stick with love....is that ok with you?
> 
> You know think you are swell...right?


Mrs. Adams, let me try to help you out. First ...there is no such thing as an unintentional f**k. You may choose to believe that you did not intend to screw the Om, but you are deluding yourself if you do not admit that the idea was in your mind, and that you were prepared to allow it to happen, if the opportunity presented itself. Second...your love for your husband was downgraded. Let me explain. When you first conceived of the idea to cheat, you relegated your husband to the same level of affection as your kids or other family members, and not as your romantic partner and love interest. You replace your husband as your romantic object with the OM. So you still had affection for your husband, but not enough or not as intensely, as he should have received. You had affection for your husband, but passion for your OM.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

**********, I think forgiveness is precisely what you say: filing away the hurt so that it doesn't dominate (or affect at all) the rest of your lives. I believe in forgiveness--and I would love to know what it feels like. I'm not there yet. W spent more than a decade rug-sweeping, lying, breaking trust. It's only been a couple of months that she has shown evident remorse and understanding of the damage done. And expressed the hope that eventually I will forgive. I love her and have always done so, but that does not mean that forgiveness automatically follows. What was destroyed over a period of years is not rebuilt overnight.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> You just break my heart...
> You know...firstly...I thought I was going to lunch...which in itself is a horrible offense. I lied to my husband and said I was going shopping. I truly had no intention of hopping into bed with the hmmm...let me think of a word that isn't offensive...ok never mind. Anyway...I truly do not know what the hell I was thinking. You know the sad part? God gave me no less than three opportunities to change my mind....first, the guy was late...I could have left. Second....he changed the plans....I could have left. Third...he knew I was struggling with going to his house....I could have left.
> 
> I cannot remember what I wore....but I do know I was nervous...because I had planned to meet him...I left my kids with my husband...and off I went. Now....I ask myself....who was that woman? I don't know her.
> ...


Are you saying you had no thoughts of justifying your actions the whole time you were with the OM, planning to be with him, getting ready to be with him? You didn't think of things your husband did you did not like, things he does that irritate you? Things you feel he should have been doing?


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

I have now read this article twice. I do agree with some of the author’s points, however, it was probably written by someone who has never experienced adultery. The majority of us on this board are betrayed spouses and as such we know firsthand the turmoil caused. I do believe to move on you must forgive. That is regardless of reconciliation or divorce. To reconcile, you must have a very strong love for your spouse. Now did your spouse have a very strong love for you to do what they did? Not only does your love have to overcome or at least deal with the affair, your love probably has to overcome the fog or whatever you want to call it in the aftermath. Your life was turned upside down. You have to deal with the surprise attack. Initially survival may be more of what you are looking at than forgiveness. 

So, what is forgiveness? Act as if the act never happened? That is not going to happen. God can do that not me. Love your partner is spite of what happened? This is doable. Move on with your life in spite of what happened? Again this is doable. The person who wronged you must be remorseful. Can you forgive someone not remorseful? Probably, but it is more difficult. Forgiveness can be a tricky thing. I have often wondered do I fully forgive. I think I have a stronger capacity to love than to forgive. 

To reconcile, you need a very strong love. Probably a stronger love than your spouse has for you. To heal you need to forgive, not only for your spouse but for you. You never forget, you will always have some pain, you will probably wonder what life would have been like had this not happened. 

The author says true love is unconditional, because it forgives unconditionally. In a naïve way this sounds great. In reality, I think we all have conditions. We married on the vows of forsaking all others. Breaking these vows is certainly a condition to end love and a relationship. 

Forgiveness for adultery is hard at best. Is the basic foundation there to try and rebuild after an affair? Is the WS remorseful? Does the BS have the tenacity to go through the ups and downs of R? Can the BS forgive? In my mind, this is the toughest thing a person may ever have to do. I know it was for me.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Not trying to piss anyone off. I think infidelity is brutal and ugly and I use brutal and ugly terminology to describe it.
> 
> I was also giving my definition of love and hate, both are actions in my book.
> 
> ...


When you talk about love/hate, would you not have to also include "indifference" into the mix? Is it possible for a WW to love their BS and have an affair in a moment of "indifference"? Forgetting their own vows to the person they profess to love for selfish gratification; is that "hate" or is that "indifference"?

The only unconditional love that I am aware of the love between parent and child. No matter what the child does, that love is non-negotiable. The chosen spouse is another matter. That sort of love requires work to maintain and reassurances throughout the marriage that the love is still there. One can fall "out of love" with a spouse, but rarely, if ever, fall out of love with one's own child.

I would offer up, for purposes of this discussion, that the WW is feeling "indifferent" toward the BS while pursuing an affair. Where the marriage goes after discovery varies from couple to couple depending on whether the "love" can be sustained or not after that event. Most don't make it. Some do. Each marriage has it's own individual issues.

As for "love", as a BS, what hurt the most in my case was the lack of remorse and the lack of effort on my WS to make amends to me, which, after time, caused me to no longer love him and divorce him.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> This is what I struggle with. How could my wife love me and do this to me. The only thing shes ever told me was during this time she loved me, but she just didnt like me. I guess thats her version of ILYBINILWY.
> 
> She also says what you did that she was selfish and loved herself more than anyone else....She said she put her feelings about everyone else, including the kids.
> 
> ...


Great post, same here the premeditation of the acts and that it happens more than once is a continuing issue, a drunken ONS while very painful is easier to wrap your head around than something plotted and planned. 

If it was true love on both sides then your spouse would never dream of cheating, obviously the WS did not love their SO enough or completely to resist that temptation.

I have read some of the posts from the WS here and for some the act of reconciliation proves the BS love for them and that in turn bonds them to the BS as their true love. For some of the other WS that is still not enough 77 years of servitude probably wouldn't.
Of course my question is what do you get for your money? If reconciliation / forgiveness is perhaps the biggest act of love you can give what can they give you back? especially after the betrayal?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I so wish I could answer this...not just for my bs but for myself.
> I never stopped loving my husband...even though I was unfaithful to him. I think perhaps I loved myself more. So I was selfish and put my feelings before anyone else...my husband, my children, my parents...and my God.
> 
> It is a question I ask myself everyday. Who was that woman and what was she thinking that she would be so cruel to a very good man who loves her in spite of herself?
> ...


But you are a very unusual FWW. You come from a generation that knew the meaning of accepting responsibility for one's actions. 

Rubpy's WW is an amoral, remorseless cheater. She will never admit her wrongdoing. No amount of love from him will ever steer her towards any kind of repentence.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> As we have done before...we respectfully will disagree on this subject and remain respectful friends.


Mrs JA, I notice you've edited down your story in your public profile. The longer version would have spoken for itself in response to some of these issues.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> You just break my heart...
> You know...firstly...I thought I was going to lunch...which in itself is a horrible offense. I lied to my husband and said I was going shopping. I truly had no intention of hopping into bed with the hmmm...let me think of a word that isn't offensive...ok never mind. Anyway...I truly do not know what the hell I was thinking. You know the sad part? God gave me no less than three opportunities to change my mind....first, the guy was late...I could have left. Second....he changed the plans....I could have left. Third...he knew I was struggling with going to his house....I could have left.
> 
> I cannot remember what I wore....but I do know I was nervous...because I had planned to meet him...I left my kids with my husband...and off I went. Now....I ask myself....who was that woman? I don't know her.
> ...


Again, thank you for the kind words. You have been such a huge help to me that I cannot thank you enough. I have asked her and she basically said the same thing you did. She doesnt know why she did it, she doesnt know why she acted the way she did the whole time she was in her MLC. All she cared about was herself, her social life, and I was the burden because I was reality and she didnt want reality. She wanted to be 25 and carefree again. 

I do love my wife very much. I'm usually very pessimistic but in this case I find myself to be an optimist. From what you have told me about your story, my wife sounds very much life you were. If she turns out to be like you 20 years later, I know I will be a happy man.

I told my wife that even though she fell from grace, I will be there to help pick her back up...because I love her. Despite of what shes done, I still love her and I love my kids and thats enough to get me to stay and work through this. I told her that I am also picking myself out of the rubble and I am strong enough for both of us, but just remember there may be times when I falter. As long as she holds true, we wont fail.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Sorry, but in my mind at the moment of infidelity the marriage is over. The WS does not love the BS.
If the two want to try to find a different love after the betrayal, well that's up to them. I understand some can actually achieve that. But real love means wanting your partner to be the best of who they are, with out reservation. Love is wanting the other person happy, not above yourself, but merely because the connection means that much to you. Real love is mutual. None of the exists when infidelity enters a relationship. Infidelity is selfish, lying and hurtful which is the opposite of any kind of love. So WS who come on here and speak about loving their spouses while they cheat, should perhaps evaluate what loving someone actually means.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> I have now read this article twice. I do agree with some of the author’s points, however, it was probably written by someone who has never experienced adultery. The majority of us on this board are betrayed spouses and as such we know firsthand the turmoil caused. I do believe to move on you must forgive. That is regardless of reconciliation or divorce. To reconcile, you must have a very strong love for your spouse. Now did your spouse have a very strong love for you to do what they did? Not only does your love have to overcome or at least deal with the affair, your love probably has to overcome the fog or whatever you want to call it in the aftermath. Your life was turned upside down. You have to deal with the surprise attack. Initially survival may be more of what you are looking at than forgiveness.
> 
> So, what is forgiveness? Act as if the act never happened? That is not going to happen. God can do that not me. Love your partner is spite of what happened? This is doable. Move on with your life in spite of what happened? Again this is doable. The person who wronged you must be remorseful. Can you forgive someone not remorseful? Probably, but it is more difficult. Forgiveness can be a tricky thing. I have often wondered do I fully forgive. I think I have a stronger capacity to love than to forgive.
> 
> ...


it's a pity that the reconciliation thread was lost, because it deals with a lot of this type of issues. For example: Forgiveness does not equate to reconciliation. I forgave my ex wife, but I still divorced her. I think that the conditions for reconciliation include forgiveness, just as it includes remorse, love and honesty. But forgiveness alone doesn't pay the bill.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I so wish I could answer this...not just for my bs but for myself.
> I never stopped loving my husband...even though I was unfaithful to him. I think perhaps I loved myself more. So I was selfish and put my feelings before anyone else...my husband, my children, my parents...and my God.
> 
> It is a question I ask myself everyday. Who was that woman and what was she thinking that she would be so cruel to a very good man who loves her in spite of herself?
> ...


Never underestimate the power of lust.

The most stalwart believers in history have succumbed to it. Remember David? The man after God's own heart murdered one of his most loyal soldiers just so he could sleep with the man's wife.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I believe people can change and learn, but no one will ever convince me that while committing one of the most underhanded, back stabbing actions, that they were loving there spouse and children.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well she wasn't thinking about our wedding day that's for sure.

You can love someone and not be in love maybe that's where the WS are when the clothes come off, although I thought loving meant caring and respecting someone and their argument goes off the tracks there.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

If forgiveness and reconciliation is a measure of true love; can't it be argued that cheating on your spouse indicates an absence of love?

As I see it, that's the problem with being a BS. You can't be sure.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

rubpy3 said:


> Basically, if we truly love our spouse, we will be able forgive them for everything. Wow. How naive. How idealistic. Talk about shifting blame: R doesn't happen, it's because the BS doesn't love WS enough.


I think you could love a person with all your heart and still not be able to forgive them because: "Somethings just can't be forgiven". For me a physical betrayal is one of them. If my spouse physically cheated on me (or emotionally, under certain circumstances), my sense of self respect wouldn't allow me to take her back. I might be able to forgive her somewhere down the road, but not take her back. If I took her back, I don't think I could live with myself, knowing that I allowed my self to be "had" just because I'm in love ... and it wouldn't matter if she were truly remorseful or not .... the question would be can I look myself in the mirror everyday.

So the advice column says if you truly love, then you forgive. But if loving her and living with her means I can't live with myself, then life would be hell for me.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Never underestimate the power of lust.
> 
> The most stalwart believers in history have succumbed to it. Remember David? The man after God's own heart murdered one of his most loyal soldiers just so he could sleep with the man's wife.


Well, Bandit, did you ever see the old movie about it? Susan Hayward was Bethsheba. I don't know, I might have bumped off ol" Uriah, to get into her britches. She was a pretty good looking woman.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

If people can accept that men compartmentalize sex, why is it difficult to accept that the cheater can do the same under the right circumstances?

It is a matter of focus. You aren't actively loving your spouses when you are deeply focused on a project at work. The project and what you want or need to do is all you see. The only reason that is acceptable is because it doesn't pit the project against the spouse.

Ah. But it is 5:30 and there is a 45 minute commute and dinner is at 6:30 but you decide to stretch it because the project is more compelling and now it is 6:30. You just chose your project over your spouse.


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

I'm in R , but will not lessen my self to do it. R doesn't mean eat sh*t and like it. 

It doesn't mean bend over and accept what is given. 

Forgiveness is earned IMO. Repent and Joe will consider the request. 

Do the work, own your mistakes, and treat me with the effing respect I deserve.

No one should R at the expense of their self esteem.


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## rubpy3 (Nov 19, 2013)

I don't think forgiveness has much to do with love of others. Forgive is what the BS has to do so that they could live in peace with themselves, so that their own life doesn't get consumed by anger, hate, and self destruct. 

Out of curiosity, I found different definitions for forgive. Depending on the definition that you subscribe to, it could subscribe the act of absolving the guilt of WS, or the act of stop feeling ill towards the act of WS. 



> Oxford Dictionaries: stop feeling angry or resentful towards (someone) for an offence, flaw, or mistake:
> 
> Random House: 1) to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve. 4) to cease to feel resentment against


I try hard as I could to forgive my WW because I choose to (try to) live in peace. (I still get triggered pretty badly from time to time). Forgiveness is purely for the BS. It's not about the love of the WS.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Let me address this person whom I love and adore and admire.
> You my darling had every right and should have kicked me to the curb...no questions asked. I do not understand WHY you didn't.
> 
> The ONLY reason we are still married is because your love was STRONG enough to compensate for my selfishness. I clearly gave up on us even when you did not. I am eternally grateful.
> ...


With all due respect, Mrs. A, this simply does not ring true. You MAY have had affection for your H, but it certainly wasn't romantic love, by any means. The act of having sex with another, proves the contrary. When you made the choice to deceive your spouse and give yourself to another, you replaced your spouse as your sexual and romantic focus.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> If people can accept that men compartmentalize sex, why is it difficult to accept that the cheater can do the same under the right circumstances?
> 
> It is a matter of focus. You aren't actively loving your spouses when you are deeply focused on a project at work. The project and what you want or need to do is all you see. The only reason that is acceptable is because it doesn't pit the project against the spouse.
> 
> Ah. But it is 5:30 and there is a 45 minute commute and dinner is at 6:30 but you decide to stretch it because the project is more compelling and now it is 6:30. You just chose your project over your spouse.


You , of course realize the difference, don't you? It would be ridiculous to equate a work project with infidelity.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Actually, this might be a good place to start a "NEW' Reconciliation thread. We already have some of the posters from the "old" thread , here.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Oh, I understand Clipclops point, but I don't agree with it, any more than I agree with Mrs. Adams. The "compartmentizing" and the "I cheated but I still loved you" are both just more of the same excuses used by WS to alleviate their guilt. My Ex said the same thing as Mrs. A, that even when she was cheating, she still loved me. I didn't believe it then, I don't believe it now. I forgave her , when she stopped making excuses.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> Actually, this might be a good place to start a "NEW' Reconciliation thread. We already have some of the posters from the "old" thread , here.


There is a reconciliation forum on this site. Why not address this issue there.


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## rubpy3 (Nov 19, 2013)

The WW is a lost cause, and our marriage is going down the drain. This is most certainly not because I don't forgive her, or because I don't love her.

I think more important to R is the issue of trust. The day I found out about the PA, the false R, + more lies, I do not love her any less. However, trust for her is gone. In my thread I get called out as having a serious case of ONEtitis. Every once couple of days, I fantasize about R with the stbxw. What preventing me from committing to R is not the lack of love for WW - its the lack of trust I have for her.

I am obsessed with finding out if she is still in contact with OM. I don't do this out of love, but it will prove that she is not lying to me and trustworthy. I can only reconcile with a trustworthy person. I can love her despite of her character flaws, yet I can also walk right out of the door.

I think that love doesn't die after a PA or EA. What dies is the complete, unjustifiable, and unshakable trust. Once I told ZZ to "defend her wife regardless of the situation, ask questions later". But once that trust dies, you will find love to be a sand castle, it's only a matter of time before the marriage dissolves.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> I think you could love a person with all your heart and still not be able to forgive them because: *"Somethings just can't be forgiven"*. For me a physical betrayal is one of them. If my spouse physically cheated on me (or emotionally, under certain circumstances), my sense of self respect wouldn't allow me to take her back. I might be able to forgive her somewhere down the road, but not take her back. If I took her back, I don't think I could live with myself, knowing that I allowed my self to be "had" just because I'm in love ... and it wouldn't matter if she were truly remorseful or not .... the question would be can I look myself in the mirror everyday.
> 
> So the advice column says if you truly love, then you forgive. But if loving her and living with her means I can't live with myself, then life would be hell for me.


This is certainly how I felt prior to MrsJA's affair. I would never think I could forgive or live with something this hideous. Nothing goes more against my principles.



rubpy3 said:


> I try hard as I could to forgive my WW because I choose to (try to) live in peace. (I still get triggered pretty badly from time to time). Forgiveness is purely for the BS. It's not about the love of the WS.


I know I have read many times that forgiveness is for the BS. Had we not reconciled and had I not loved my wife, I would probably never have forgiven her. I certainly do not forgive the scumbag other man!


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## rubpy3 (Nov 19, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> This is certainly how I felt prior to MrsJA's affair. I would never think I could forgive or live with something this hideous. Nothing goes more against my principles.
> 
> 
> 
> I know I have read many times that forgiveness is for the BS. Had we not reconciled and had I not loved my wife, I would probably never have forgiven her. I certainly do not forgive the scumbag other man!


Do you see any difference between R after a ONS, or R after a long, drawn out PA that evolved from EA?


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

rubpy3 said:


> Do you see any difference between R after a ONS, or R after a long, drawn out PA that evolved from EA?


Are you asking if one is more of a betrayal? Tough question.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I understand , that you accept responsibility for what you did, Mrs. A, and it reflects credit on you. But , as a former BS, I hope you understand that the idea that you were somehow temporarily "out to lunch" rings very hollow. It was only after extensive IC that my ex wife was able to understand her mindset during the affair, and for true reconciliation to take place, the "why" question seems to be the most important issue. She stopped saying that she didn't know why she did it, she stopped saying that she didn't remember what she was thinking at the time, and worked hard to get to the bottom of her thoughts. That is why , even though we are not together, I respect her a ton.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

rubpy3 said:


> Do you see any difference between R after a ONS, or R after a long, drawn out PA that evolved from EA?


Probably. I know after MrsJA's affair in one of our discussions, her argument was she only did it once. I said it does not matter if it was once or a hundred times. Hard to say in reality. I know since it went PA I wish it was only an EA. When I read about EA's here, I think I wish that all it was.


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## rubpy3 (Nov 19, 2013)

joe kidd said:


> Are you asking if one is more of a betrayal? Tough question.


I personally think I'd get pretty pissed if WW gets drunk in a bar and have a ONS, but I wouldn't make a huge deal out of it unless it happens again.

PA after a long EA is definitely more severe on my scale. Especially it drags out into a false R, lying, etc. Especially if I get lied to.

Edit:
This goes back to what I was saying: trust is everything. Even if there was a PA, if the WW was honest about it, I would be hella pissed, but the trust still be there (although damaged), but I would have no problem with R.

However, with each lie, R gets harder and harder.


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

rubpy3 said:


> I personally think I'd get pretty pissed if WW gets drunk in a bar and have a ONS, but I wouldn't make a huge deal out of it unless it happens again.
> 
> PA after a long EA is definitely more severe on my scale. Especially it drags out into a false R, lying, etc. Especially if I get lied to.


No difference to me... pants came down either way.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> Probably. I know after MrsJA's affair in one of our discussions, her argument was she only did it once. I said it does not matter if it was once or a hundred times. Hard to say in reality. I know since it went PA I wish it was only an EA. *When I read about EA's here, I think I wish that all it was.*


I don't know, JA. In a real EA the affair partners are in love (literally). Your WS falls in love with someone else. Is that easier to take than an emotionless ONS? Hard to say.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Well, rubpy, I dunno. It would probably be worse to get hit in the cabeza with a ball bat 20 times, than it would to get hit only once, but they both hurt like hell.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

BTW, I divorced my wife immediately after I discovered her affair, then after 2 1/2 years apart, we tried to reconcile, and lived together for a few months. She regained her love for me, but I could not , for her, so we are no longer together.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> When you talk about love/hate, would you not have to also include "indifference" into the mix? Is it possible for a WW to love their BS and have an affair in a moment of "indifference"? Forgetting their own vows to the person they profess to love for selfish gratification; is that "hate" or is that "indifference"?
> 
> The only unconditional love that I am aware of the love between parent and child. No matter what the child does, that love is non-negotiable. The chosen spouse is another matter. That sort of love requires work to maintain and reassurances throughout the marriage that the love is still there. One can fall "out of love" with a spouse, but rarely, if ever, fall out of love with one's own child.
> 
> ...


Hey sw.
A ws might be "feeling" any number of things when screwing around.

I am not defining love or hate by feelings but actions.

Feelings are important but actions cost.

I classify infidelity as cruel and abusive.

Cruel and abusive actions are hateful, not loving or even indifferent.

I am very sorry your H betrayed you and was not remorseful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I would for the record like to give you some facts. I knew the man 8 weeks...I was never alone with him during that time until the luncheon date...which turned into the PA...
> 
> I call it a ONS....Mr. JA says it was an EA and a PA. semantics I guess....regardless....I lied to him and met a man for lunch. It was wrong any way you slice it.
> 
> I confessed a couple of weeks afterwards. Not that any of this matters to any of you.


It was a one way EA in my opinion. MrsA was infatuated with the OM and "hopeful" for a possible relationship. The OM was a player and just looking for another lay.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

*Re: Re: Reconciliation is a sign of love*



Rookie4 said:


> You , of course realize the difference, don't you? It would be ridiculous to *equate* a work project with infidelity.


The difference is degree. But it is not a ridiculous *comparison*. It is an illustration about focus and betrayal. 

If you have never forgotten something because you were preoccupied perhaps you can't understand. Is that the case?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

So you are saying that a WS "forgot" that they were married because they were "preoccupied" having sex with another person? Sorry but it seems like a stretch to me. So, the WS is having sex with the AP, suddenly snaps his/her fingers and says "Oh Crap!! I'm married and love my spouse"? My bad, I forgot? I've heard a lot of excuses, but that one is pretty lame.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> As we have done before...we respectfully will disagree on this subject and remain respectful friends.


You and I have different views of love is all. According to my definition, during your affair, you were hating, not loving, with your actions. I am maybe guessing at your definition, but yours might be that you didn't lose your love "feeling" for your husband during your A?

Maybe you define love as a feeling?

I am not exactly sure, I will never tell someone what they were feeling.

By your own admission, your actions were cruel. Cruelty never equates to love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> to be honest..I do not know where my mind was at the time...nor do you...so we are both merely speculating and trying to second guess a person who was obviously not working on a full deck at the time....do not misconstrue what I just said...I take full responsibility for my actions.
> 
> I accept your respect.


You know some threads just hit right in your wheel house and this one is it, as I have different thoughts about this I feel compelled to leave them here. Probably because the 2 year dday is coming up fast and I go thru the doubts over reconciliation along with the trauma of her actions all over again.

Mrs. A let me say from all of your posts I have read you sound like a WS who gets it, and while saying you are the type of WS every BS hopes for sounds ridiculous cause no one wants to be here, I hope you get the sentiment.

I don't think I have ever read any WS posts where they had a definitive answer for what they were thinking or why they did it, to me it's the holy grail for us BS, we wish we could find it then maybe it would give us another way to fix this. At the very least it may help the WS to recognize when those thoughts or feelings come around again if the ever do.

Reconciliation takes time maybe the rest of your life.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

*Re: Re: Reconciliation is a sign of love*



Rookie4 said:


> So you are saying that a WS "forgot" that they were married because they were "preoccupied" having sex with another person? Sorry but it seems like a stretch to me. So, the WS is having sex with the AP, suddenly snaps his/her fingers and says "Oh Crap!! I'm married and love my spouse"? My bad, I forgot? I've heard a lot of excuses, but that one is pretty lame.


I've made no excuses.

You dont want to follow the thinking because it hurts too much. That's ok. Your characterization of it may be lame, but that's because you won't open your mind to how people can operate at times.

I am not going to argue this. It doesn't mean that much to me. But the thought is perfectly valid, like it or not.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

love=pain said:


> I don't think I have ever read any WS posts where they had a definitive answer for what they were thinking or why they did it, to me it's the holy grail for us BS, we wish we could find it then maybe it would give us another way to fix this.
> 
> Reconciliation takes time maybe the rest of your life.


Mrs. Adams has explained to me in detail why she did it and pretty much what she was thinking. In reality even if you are told the "what and why" I do not think the answers are acceptable. I remember even after hearing her story I kept asking "WHY?".


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

love=pain said:


> You know some threads just hit right in your wheel house and this one is it, as I have different thoughts about this I feel compelled to leave them here. Probably because the 2 year dday is coming up fast and I go thru the doubts over reconciliation along with the trauma of her actions all over again.
> 
> Mrs. A let me say from all of your posts I have read you sound like a WS who gets it, and while saying you are the type of WS every BS hopes for sounds ridiculous cause no one wants to be here, I hope you get the sentiment.
> 
> ...


Dude, it isn't the Holy Grail, nor is it impossible for the WS to understand his/her mindset. It just takes hard work, and a willingness to face their issues. My Ex wife did it, and so can your spouse. It happens all of the time. Good Luck!


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> You are correct as usual Mr. JA.


Sorry. Too much detail?

By the way I love you more than life itself. I will back off if any of this is bothering you.


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

johnAdams said:


> Mrs. Adams has explained to me in detail why she did it and pretty much what she was thinking. In reality even if you are told the "what and why" I do not think the answers are acceptable. I remember even after hearing her story I kept asking "WHY?".


I was told what I believe to be the truth. 

She said she was selfish and thinking only of herself.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I would for the record like to give you some facts. I knew the man 8 weeks...I was never alone with him during that time until the luncheon date...which turned into the PA...
> 
> I call it a ONS....Mr. JA says it was an EA and a PA. semantics I guess....regardless....I lied to him and met a man for lunch. It was wrong any way you slice it.
> 
> I confessed a couple of weeks afterwards. Not that any of this matters to any of you.


I wouldn't call this a ONS either...


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Clipclop, you have a right to your opinion. I don't agree but that's OK too.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> Mrs. Adams has explained to me in detail why she did it and pretty much what she was thinking. In reality even if you are told the "what and why" I do not think the answers are acceptable. I remember even after hearing her story I kept asking "WHY?".


JA, it's like Sherlock Holmes. When you have eliminated all other possibilities, then the one that is left , must be the truth, however unlikely. It took a long time, but my ex wife finally was able to tell me why. I didn't particularly like her answer, but I knew that it was the real one.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Dude, it isn't the Holy Grail, nor is it impossible for the WS to understand his/her mindset. It just takes hard work, and a willingness to face their issues. My Ex wife did it, and so can your spouse. It happens all of the time. Good Luck!


Yup!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> Mrs. Adams has explained to me in detail why she did it and pretty much what she was thinking. In reality even if you are told the "what and why" I do not think the answers are acceptable. I remember even after hearing her story I kept asking "WHY?".


Here are the problems I had with asking "Why".

The question opens the door to blame shifting. "Because you were ignoring me and not seeing to my needs" which follows with passing the blame and/or guilting the BS.

The "I don't know" answer seems insufficient. "I wasn't thinking" falls into the same category.

"It just happened". As if it was merely fate that played a role, thus absolving the WS of any or some responsibility.

The real "WHY" answer would help so many of us BS with our own demons, whether we are trying to reconcile or opt for divorce. The real "WHY" answer would help us all to move forward. So, it does make one wonder why the real answer seems so elusive.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> The real "WHY" answer would help so many of us BS with our own demons, whether we are trying to reconcile or opt for divorce. The real "WHY" answer would help us all to move forward. So, it does make one wonder why the real answer seems so elusive.


The real "why" is often the most painful. Answers like "it just happened", "you were not meeting my needs", etc are just camouflage for the real reasons. The real reason may be I met someone hotter and more exciting than you that can give me what you cannot; prestige, money, passion, etc.


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## rubpy3 (Nov 19, 2013)

The "why" that WW gave me was that she was bored with the routine sex we have. Is that honest, or still begs further "why"?


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> Here are the problems I had with asking "Why".
> 
> The question opens the door to blame shifting. "Because you were ignoring me and not seeing to my needs" which follows with passing the blame and/or guilting the BS.
> 
> ...


Why did you choose to eat a donut for breakfast instead of a healthy bowl of oatmeal?

Why did you buy that new jacket yesterday when you know you really can't afford it?

Why did you get behind the wheel of your car when you knew you'd had too much to drink?

The answer is the same as why did you have an affair.

Because they wanted to.

The reason we cannot accept it is because it is too simple and painful.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

rubpy3 said:


> The "why" that WW gave me was that she was bored with the routine sex we have. Is that honest, or still begs further "why"?


How long did it take you to get to that answer? How many other answers did you get before that one?

Yes, that would be an honest answer and end any further interrogations. And yes, I would imagine that was horribly painful to hear. In my opinion, one can't repair a marriage without the truth, whatever the brutal truth may be.

So sorry that you had to eventually hear those awful words uttered by your WW, however, when you finally got a truthful answer to "why" I assume it finally gave you focus on what the real problems (to her) are in your marriage and you no longer had to bounce around other unrelated issues.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I so wish I could answer this...not just for my bs but for myself.
> I never stopped loving my husband...even though I was unfaithful to him. I think perhaps I loved myself more. So I was selfish and put my feelings before anyone else...my husband, my children, my parents...and my God.
> 
> It is a question I ask myself everyday. Who was that woman and what was she thinking that she would be so cruel to a very good man who loves her in spite of herself?
> ...


No doubt he would have healed quicker if he had divorced. In your case id say it was love. On many other cases its fear. Uncut and raw.


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## rubpy3 (Nov 19, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> How long did it take you to get to that answer? How many other answers did you get before that one?
> 
> Yes, that would be an honest answer and end any further interrogations. And yes, I would imagine that was horribly painful to hear. In my opinion, one can't repair a marriage without the truth, whatever the brutal truth may be.
> 
> So sorry that you had to eventually hear those awful words uttered by your WW, however, when you finally got a truthful answer to "why" I assume it finally gave you focus on what the real problems (to her) are in your marriage and you no longer had to bounce around other unrelated issues.



Took me more than a month, separation, file, and forcing to write a NC to OM to get that direct phrase. Her first words weren't too far off, however. On D-day, she said she felt too young to sexually settle down with just one guy.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

rubpy3 said:


> Do you see any difference between R after a ONS, or R after a long, drawn out PA that evolved from EA?


I can answer that. YES.

On dday, I was talking to my sister trying to rationalize the hows and whys. I dont want to get into the backstory of the OM, lets just say he is the last person I would have suspected due to several issues.

Anyways, I remember telling my sister they mustve run into each other when she was out, she got drunk, and they had a ONS.

Thats not what happened. Like I said earlier in this thread, the premeditation of the night they hooked up is worse than the actual act. I just imagine her getting ready and prettied up at home knowing she was going to screw another man. We probably carried conversations, we were with the kids, she kissed us goodbye....all knowing where she was going and what she was about to do.

The sex part, while absolutely gut wrenching, has never bothered me as much as the premeditation. Even now, I dont picture them together. What I do picture is her in the hotel bathroom, making sure every hair was perfect, every piece of makeup was perfect, and every inch of her body looked as good as it possibly could. This was the first time another man has seen her naked in 9 years. She wasnt worried about me, she was worried about looking good for him. What the hell was going through her mind while she was staring at herself in the bathroom mirror while he waited, probably naked in the bed?


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## Csquare (Jan 14, 2014)

Sometimes it seems that W's have absolutely no idea of what will be the consequence of their A. They *know* that if they detonate the bomb, it will explode. But they have no capacity to imagine the devastation and fall-out their action will cause. Then afterwards, they are struck dumb by pain and suffering they created. "I had no idea when I set this bomb off that *this* would be the outcome. This is NOT what I wanted - loss of marriage, loss of family life..."

So the real *why* might be total lack of imagination.


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## rubpy3 (Nov 19, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> The sex part, while absolutely gut wrenching, has never bothered me as much as the premeditation. Even now, I dont picture them together. What I do picture is her in the hotel bathroom, making sure every hair was perfect, every piece of makeup was perfect, and every inch of her body looked as good as it possibly could. This was the first time another man has seen her naked in 9 years. She wasnt worried about me, she was worried about looking good for him. What the hell was going through her mind while she was staring at herself in the bathroom mirror while he waited, probably naked in the bed?


Right before Dday, while I was still collecting evidences, she went to her hotel wearing a special Mikimoto necklace that I bought for her. Each year, she would wear it only once on our Anniversary, and each year, I would add a huge pearl to the necklace. It devastated me that she wore this to look naked for OM.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> Mrs. Adams has explained to me in detail why she did it and pretty much what she was thinking. In reality even if you are told the "what and why" I do not think the answers are acceptable. I remember even after hearing her story I kept asking "WHY?".


I've never received a definitive answer to why my wife cheated. I got a bunch of "I dont know why" and "I dont know what I was thinking". The closest I got was she was selfish and didnt like me at the time because she made things so ugly at home, which in turn frustrated me. She had created a hostile environment between us because of the guilt and put all the blame on me.

Personally, as much as us BS's want to know WHY?, I doubt any answer they give, even if its 100% truth, would ever satisfy us. We want to know why so bad so we can wrap our minds around it and deal with it better.....but no answer a WS gives could ever do that.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

rubpy3 said:


> Right before Dday, while I was still collecting evidences, she went to her hotel wearing a special Mikimoto necklace that I bought for her. Each year, she would wear it only once on our Anniversary, and each year, I would add a huge pearl to the necklace. It devastated me that she wore this to look naked for OM.


Damn....thats just wrong...which brings up my issue, what did she do with her wedding ring that night? Was she wearing it?

I dont know if this is normal, but the act of sex they had is just the nail in the coffin. There are so many more issues I had with her betrayal...Every single little betrayal she did up to the point she crawled into that bed kills me more than whatever went on in that bed.



illwill said:


> No doubt he would have healed quicker if he had divorced. In your case id say it was love. On many other cases its fear. Uncut and raw.


I had this conversation with my wife yesterday. I told her that staying was much harder than leaving. Staying with her made sure that I had a constant, daily reminder of her infidelity. Leaving would be so much easier in that regard.


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## raven3321 (Sep 25, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> See why I love you? I am ok...you know me...I have the tissues handy...lol
> 
> I so want to be able to help and maybe if we both post they can see how both of us are trying to recover from what I have done.
> It isn't easy...for either of us. That is a given.


You two are absolutely amazing. I really love the interplay here between the two of you and I can feel the deep love. Mr. Adams is my new hero.

Mrs. Adams, I don't know if you've ever started a thread with the full story. Do you plan on doing this sometime? Not to bring up old wounds but I would love to hear the story. The reason is while I understand the long, mutual EA, then eventual PA, it doesn't seem to be the case with you. I would really like to hear from your perspective some time, how you meet someone and in 8 weeks, go out to "lunch" with them. Then, without premeditation, sleep with them. I'm not trying to offend at all please believe me. I have the utmost respect for you and Mr. Adams. It's just since most of us are guys, the female mind baffles us. Being a man, I understand how we get into affairs....another woman enters the room; that's really all it takes for us. But for a woman (and mother) to go from 0 to 50mph while just out for lunch literally baffles me. 

If you've already posted all this somewhere forgive me. Again love that you two are here. You really are a wonderful resource on TAM.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> I had this conversation with my wife yesterday. I told her that staying was much harder than leaving. Staying with her made sure that I had a constant, daily reminder of her infidelity. Leaving would be so much easier in that regard.


Hawx20, is your wife remorseful? How did you find out? Was it on-gong? As pointed out, the lies and betrayals leading up to the sex is very hurtful. Unfortunately, when you get past those obstacles, you will find the actual sex a killer. Sorry that does not sound too encouraging. But often, you can only take in some many things of what happened.

And yes, reconciliation/staying is not for sissies.


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

johnAdams said:


> And yes, reconciliation/staying is not for sissies.


Yes. As long as it's a true R and not rugsweeping bs.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

rubpy3 said:


> The "why" that WW gave me was that she was bored with the routine sex we have. Is that honest, or still begs further "why"?


Once they want it with this other person, you get passionless duty sex, and that's boring, yes... I remember trying to spice it up, with many methods.. I won't go into details, but after discovery, I realized who was really cold and boring.. it wasn't me, it was her with me.. sure she was a firecracker with the OM.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

rubpy3 said:


> Right before Dday, while I was still collecting evidences, she went to her hotel wearing a special Mikimoto necklace that I bought for her. Each year, she would wear it only once on our Anniversary, and each year, I would add a huge pearl to the necklace. It devastated me that she wore this to look naked for OM.


Wow.. If I remember correctly, she was cosplaying for the OM during the affair, right ?

The details just get worse and worse.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> BTW, I divorced my wife immediately after I discovered her affair, then after 2 1/2 years apart, we tried to reconcile, and lived together for a few months. She regained her love for me, but I could not , for her, so we are no longer together.


How is your ex doing now?


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> Hawx20, is your wife remorseful? How did you find out? Was it on-gong? As pointed out, the lies and betrayals leading up to the sex is very hurtful. Unfortunately, when you get past those obstacles, you will find the actual sex a killer. Sorry that does not sound too encouraging. But often, you can only take in some many things of what happened.
> 
> And yes, reconciliation/staying is not for sissies.


Yes she is extremely remorseful. As I'm sure you'll understand, it is just very hard to believe that they love you and what they are giving you now is just to save their own ass.

To her credit, shes done everything right since dday. She has been completely open and even encouraged me to throw the OM under the bus with his wife. The OM was my stepsons "father", part dead beat, part absentee parent. A loser in every since of the word who went fishing with compliments on day and reeled her in.

I busted her on Nov 18th last year via text message. There was a message on her phone from his that he missed her and she had replied "I'm alone now". Why she did not delete this message is a mystery to me. It was one time PA, EA was ongoing.

Right after dday, the sex part was the killer. I never thought I would get the image out of my head or the mind movies of them two together. However, a few weeks ago something changed. I stopped thinking about the sex.....i started thinking of her in the hotel bathroom staring at herself in the mirror....which I know she did....It kills me thinking of what was going on inside her head when she was staring at the mirror....and then what she did when she opened the door.....

Hell, I dont even know if she was in that restroom, I just imagine it and it kills me....i dont know why that bothers me more than the sex....maybe i've just blocked the sex out of my mind....i dont know....or maybe because she had a chance to look at herself in the mirror before doing it and she still did it anyways.


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## standinginthegap (Jan 16, 2014)

user_zero said:


> if True Love is unconditional, then why WS(s) didn't love their spouses enough to not cheat on them?... because they didn't get what they need from their spouses. isn't that the reasons they keep saying.
> having an affair in the first place proves that love is in fact conditional at least in the minds of WS(s).


My stand and views on a lot of these things are different than others. I don't think love have anything to do with the WS having an affair that is just what we are lead to believe, the bs they feed us, what the world tells us and we gobble it up as if it is true. For me the truth is _*this is a spiritual battle*_, Ephesians 6:12 "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." 

Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy and marriages are the number one thing he goes after because of the unity and what it represents. But take notice in all situations of infidelity that he goes after the weaker of the two, the one he knows he can get to and temp. That is the truth that the WS has fallen into temptation and sin; and unless their better half is willing to recognize this for what it really is the chances at R are slim.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Can I tell you something? He is my hero too.
> At the time I think I was looking for a prince on a white horse...little did I know that I already had my prince and he just keeps slaying the dragons.
> 
> To be honest...I wish we were not here...but we are...and I hope we can give hope to those who choose r.
> ...


Mrs Adams, I've said it before and I'll say it again, your story sounds EXACTLY like how my wife described her affair. We werent in a good or bad place, just out of sync too. This loser (my stepsons dad) decides to flatter her everytime he came to pick up my stepson and she bought it....hook, line, and sinker. This "man" was already scum to me by the way he treated his son. He isnt man enough to be a father, he has no idea how and doesnt have what it takes. His wife was pregnant with his second son when he had the affair with mine. He screwed his first son and now screwed the second before he was even born. Talk about a winner.

Anyways, you give me such great hope because your words sound like my wife could have written them verbatim. I can only hope and pray that she turns out to be like you in the end. Thank you and your husband so very much for being here posting your words of wisdom. They are very much appreciated and very helpful.



rubpy3 said:


> The "why" that WW gave me was that she was bored with the routine sex we have. Is that honest, or still begs further "why"?


I said earlier that why search so hard for the whys and I dont think any answer they give could ever satisfy us. Even if its 100% truthful, there isnt any answer that could even come close to satisfying us. Its like chasing the rabbit down the rabbit hole. Each answer will only be met with "but why". It will be an endless cycle looking for the appropriate answer for your heart and mind to rationalize and cope. It will never come no matter how hard you try.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Can I tell you something? He is my hero too.
> At the time I think I was looking for a prince on a white horse...little did I know that I already had my prince and he just keeps slaying the dragons.
> 
> To be honest...I wish we were not here...but we are...and I hope we can give hope to those who choose r.
> ...


Here is a thread everyone should read about the entire recovery process. AR is a legend. It might give you an idea how to post your story.

oops, forgot the link again. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/30807-2-years-ago-today.html


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> How do you say stupid? It wasn't his fault...I let it happen. Well..yes it was his fault...he purposely pursued another mans wife. The lowest scum bucket of a man. The only thing I can say is it was the most selfish thing I have ever done in my life and totally out of character. Totally.


I don't mean to be rude but how do people convince themselves that they were merely victims or dare I say, out of character? Maybe its a way of alleviating the guilt by placing the blame on the om/w.

"He was a scum bucket"

"She's a home wrecker"

...Shouldn't being married give people more pause? Don't you have more responsibility towards your spouse's well being than the OM/w? On what basis do you judge the APs to be what they are? 

Is it a scale you put yourself on or do you see yourself as something better and that you messed up and acted out of character while they were by nature, scum buckets?

I'm just curious about the line of thinking involved here..


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

BjornFree said:


> I don't mean to be rude but how do people convince themselves that they were merely victims or dare I say, out of character? Maybe its a way of alleviating the guilt by placing the blame on the om/w.
> 
> "He was a scum bucket"
> 
> ...


Yes, it takes two to tango and I can only speak to what my WW has said. I think she has a victim mentality. This moron OM knew she was married and still actively pursued her. I think they look at it like it never would have happened had the AP never tempted or pursued them.

I sort of see it that way to. Yes, what my wife did was perhaps unforgivable. However, this loser OM came in with intent. He came in with every intention to sleep with my wife. She just got caught up in it. Now, I'm not relieving her of ANY blame at all. She is just as guilty. The difference here is that he initiated everything. He decided he wanted to conquer her and she fell.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> Here are the problems I had with asking "Why".
> 
> The question opens the door to blame shifting. "Because you were ignoring me and not seeing to my needs" which follows with passing the blame and/or guilting the BS.
> 
> ...


I would disagree, "why" is very important, yes it can lead to blame shifting by the Ws but it gives you some insight into their mindset. The whys tell you if there is any hope for R, or if you should run away and it brings out their reasons not matter how wrong or twisted.

If I walked up and punched you in the face you would want to know "why", (a)to see if I am crazy(b) to see if I will do it again and (c) to keep me from doing it again.

I firmly believe that cheating is a choice nothing the BS ever did forced someone into it, but I also believe that issues in the marriage(no matter how trivial) contributed to that frame of mind. 
Without "why" how do I know anything


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

BjornFree said:


> I don't mean to be rude but how do people convince themselves that they were merely victims or dare I say, out of character? Maybe its a way of alleviating the guilt by placing the blame on the om/w.
> 
> "He was a scum bucket"
> 
> ...


I will give an answer even thought this is for Mrs. Adams and she will probably answer also...probably before I finish typing this....lol.

I do not think she looks at herself as a victim. She has told me many times it was her choice. In the past she has even said do not blame him, blame me. 

Now she was completely out of character. This is one of the things that has always bothered me. Since our dating days she always acted like she worshiped me. Almost to the point that I am sure I was over confident and probably ****y. She was always a "good girl". She was a virgin when I met her. I would have never have thought she was capable of having an affair. I remember even when she told me there was another man, I thought it was probably somewhat innocent and she is making a big deal out of nothing. I actually felt ashamed and embarrassed two weeks later when I asked her if she had sex with him. I was sure the answer was no. As she has pointed out on this thread she had multiple opportunities to change her mind prior to PIV. She chose to proceed.

Now the other man is a player. A jock, her professor at the time. He was divorced and a ladies man. Why women feel honored to be hit on by some guy who has been with anyone they want is beyond me. But, he hit on her in class knowing she was married. These days that alone would get you fired. He weaved his web, lured her in and got what he wanted.......and then promptly dumped her. Now, she made the choice. But he was and is a low life scumbag. Unfortunately, he is I guess semi-famous so he is easy to follow on the internet....complete with google images of him. The one thing I somewhat enjoy is that after his rise in coaching.....he totally flamed out.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> Damn....thats just wrong...which brings up my issue, what did she do with her wedding ring that night? Was she wearing it?
> 
> I dont know if this is normal, but the act of sex they had is just the nail in the coffin. There are so many more issues I had with her betrayal...Every single little betrayal she did up to the point she crawled into that bed kills me more than whatever went on in that bed.
> 
> ...


Leaving right after dday may be easy, but divorce is very hard. Hitting restart on your whole life is scary as he!!. Fear of the unknown can do a number on your mental state. Trust me.

R or D, both choices are hard. If you do it right.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> Yes, it takes two to tango and I can only speak to what my WW has said. I think she has a victim mentality. This moron OM knew she was married and still actively pursued her. I think they look at it like it never would have happened had the AP never tempted or pursued them.
> 
> I sort of see it that way to. Yes, what my wife did was perhaps unforgivable. However, this loser OM came in with intent. He came in with every intention to sleep with my wife. She just got caught up in it. Now, I'm not relieving her of ANY blame at all. She is just as guilty. The difference here is that he initiated everything. He decided he wanted to conquer her and she fell.


Let me flip this around.

Ice cream tempts me, but I'm too poor to afford it. But the ice cream man just won't stop talking about this new sundae that looks too good to be true. So I steal some money from my dad's wallet and next thing you know, I'm enjoying the ice cream.

Does that make the ice cream man responsible for my stealing?

Food for thought.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Excuse me? I have not one time said I was a victim...I have taken full responsibility for my betrayal. I am 100% to blame. No one else. I am the lowest of the low. How you have read this thread and come to the conclusion that I place myself above anyone is beyond me. I owe you no explanation, no validation, and I am trying very hard to not say to you exactly what I am thinking....


Don't take offense, it wasn't a pointed statement.

All I was trying to say was that all of us, to some extent or another, try to apportion the blame onto someone else. But just because we do doesn't make it so.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

BjornFree said:


> Let me flip this around.
> 
> Ice cream tempts me, but I'm too poor to afford it. But the ice cream man just won't stop talking about this new sundae that looks too good to be true. So I steal some money from my dad's wallet and next thing you know, I'm enjoying the ice cream.
> 
> ...


Hmmm, I think I may have bought a new car that way


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> How is your ex doing now?


Really good. She was in the dumpster for a while, but Her career has taken off and we both have met other people. The decision to split up was the best possible choice for us.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

BjornFree said:


> Let me flip this around.
> 
> Ice cream tempts me, but I'm too poor to afford it. But the ice cream man just won't stop talking about this new sundae that looks too good to be true. So I steal some money from my dad's wallet and next thing you know, I'm enjoying the ice cream.
> 
> ...


This whole thing about how much is the OM/OW to blame for infidelity has been done to death on TAM. It is an argument with no answer. However, I think the best contribution on the topic was by staystrong in his thread about having been the OM:

_Originally Posted by staystrong:
I agree that it is VERY hard for men to turn down the advances of a married woman. Some women are very adept at seducing in a manner in which they psychologically maintain their own integrity. Hence the KISA syndrome .. men will convince themselves that a woman so 'special' (smart, charming, kind, funny, talented, interesting, erotic) is effectively a lost soul looking for love.

*Still, I think it's a cop-out for to say it's not my job for her to police her own marital behavior. It's my job to stick to my own values and not be a part of someone else's immoral behavior.*

If anything, she needed to be rejected in that instance, and been told that "you're married, what the hell are you doing?" by ME._

Mrs JA has never cast herself in the role of victim, but her prof does not get a pass either. Scumbag is right.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mrs. Adams, Bjorn is a very insightful poster and was not specifically calling you out. His point , however is well taken. Regardless of the OM's morals or lack of them. He wasn't married and you were. To apportion any blame of any kind to him is an alibi for yourself, and an impediment to R. An example; my wife when she began IC wrote down all of the reasons and excuses she had thought about, which contributed to her affair. Then she and the Counselor sat down and demolished every one of them. Remember my Sherlock Holmes analogy? To paraphrase, when you have eliminated all excuses, you are left with the truth. The cheating was in you, the Om was just the vehicle.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> You goof...you never took money out of your daddy's wallet! Lol


I meant to post a link for you earlier and forgot to put it in the post.

This is from a fellow who has given out tons of good advice about his road to reconciliation. If I remember correctly he would write until he would trigger too badly and then take a break. His thread is a major contribution to TAM.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/30807-2-years-ago-today.html

If you want to post your story just remember you do not have to do it all at one time.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Well, Bandit, did you ever see the old movie about it? Susan Hayward was Bethsheba. I don't know, I might have bumped off ol" Uriah, to get into her britches. She was a pretty good looking woman.


Susan Hayward was a hottie... to be sure. 

What kills me about that story, is that David didn't even have the decency to walk up to the guy, look him in the eye and shove a blade in him. No, he cowardly sent Uriah into the worst part of the fighting knowing he's get killed. Up to that point David had been the total opposite of a coward. He was a stone cold warrior killer. 

David saw Bathsheba bathing on her roof because he was sitting on his azz in his castle, eating dates and drinking wine, when he should have been out on the lines with his army fighting the enemy and securing his kingdom.

He got lazy and entitled.

Alot of people get caught up in affairs simply because they are not where they are supposed to be, not doing what they are supposed to be doing, and getting too comfortable in their lives...


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> Mrs. Adams, Bjorn is a very insightful poster and was not specifically calling you out. His point , however is well taken. Regardless of the OM's morals or lack of them. He wasn't married and you were. To apportion any blame of any kind to him is an alibi for yourself, and an impediment to R. An example; my wife when she began IC wrote down all of the reasons and excuses she had thought about, which contributed to her affair. Then she and the Counselor sat down and demolished every one of them. Remember my Sherlock Holmes analogy? To paraphrase, when you have eliminated all excuses, you are left with the truth. The cheating was in you, the Om was just the vehicle.


There are reasons for cheating and not that many. For folks that have had one partner I think the biggest reason is curiosity and the thrill of it.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Mrs. Adams, Bjorn is a very insightful poster and was not specifically calling you out. His point , however is well taken. Regardless of the OM's morals or lack of them. He wasn't married and you were. To apportion any blame of any kind to him is an alibi for yourself, and an impediment to R. An example; my wife when she began IC wrote down all of the reasons and excuses she had thought about, which contributed to her affair. Then she and the Counselor sat down and demolished every one of them. Remember my Sherlock Holmes analogy? To paraphrase, when you have eliminated all excuses, you are left with the truth. The cheating was in you, the Om was just the vehicle.


Well said.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> Susan Hayward was a hottie... to be sure.
> 
> What kills me about that story, is that David didn't even have the decency to walk up to the guy, look him in the eye and shove a blade in him. No, he cowardly sent Uriah into the worst part of the fighting knowing he's get killed. Up to that point David had been the total opposite of a coward. He was a stone cold warrior killer.
> 
> ...


This story irritates me to no end. And he ends up one of the biggest characters in the Old Testament.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Mrs. Adams, Bjorn is a very insightful poster and was not specifically calling you out. His point , however is well taken. Regardless of the OM's morals or lack of them. He wasn't married and you were. *To apportion any blame of any kind to him is an alibi for yourself,* and an impediment to R. An example; my wife when she began IC wrote down all of the reasons and excuses she had thought about, which contributed to her affair. Then she and the Counselor sat down and demolished every one of them. Remember my Sherlock Holmes analogy? To paraphrase, when you have eliminated all excuses, you are left with the truth. *The cheating was in you, the Om was just the vehicle.*


:bsflag: Sorry, gotta call BS on this. The act of cheating (infidelity) is participatory. If the OM/OW knows the cheater is married, they are more than just "a vehicle" (calling double BS on this idea). They are accomplices. 

Like I said, been argued to death, no need to cover old ground here. See this long thread in Men's Clubhouse: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/123593-why-do-men-hit-married-women.html

I'll also give a shout out to RandomDude, who had been a vocal proponent of the "it's not my vow to keep" school of thought, but subsequently had second thoughts: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/156465-moral-responsibility.html


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Mrs. Adams, Bjorn is a very insightful poster and was not specifically calling you out. His point , however is well taken. Regardless of the OM's morals or lack of them. He wasn't married and you were. To apportion any blame of any kind to him is an alibi for yourself, and an impediment to R. An example; my wife when she began IC wrote down all of the reasons and excuses she had thought about, which contributed to her affair. Then she and the Counselor sat down and demolished every one of them. Remember my Sherlock Holmes analogy? To paraphrase, when you have eliminated all excuses, you are left with the truth. The cheating was in you, the Om was just the vehicle.


Absolutely agree. Not taking any guilt from a POSOM that knowingly sleeps with a married woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## raven3321 (Sep 25, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Can I tell you something? He is my hero too.
> At the time I think I was looking for a prince on a white horse...little did I know that I already had my prince and he just keeps slaying the dragons.
> 
> To be honest...I wish we were not here...but we are...and I hope we can give hope to those who choose r.
> ...


Understood. If you do a separate thread great, if not I understand. Like I said, the reason isn't to dredge up the past. I wanted to know what happened leading up to that fatefull lunch so that as a man, I can be wary of my wife being "swept off her feet" as it were. I actually had this very thing happen to me with my first wife while we were still in college. We were both strong believers. However, temptation is exactly that I guess....temptation. Never did get a straight answer from her on how it developed. By the time I heard about affair number one, she was off to affair number 2. So I just wanted to know how the player weasles in and captures the heart of a happily married woman. As a believer, I'm sure you're familiar with the scripture that says, "...these are they that creep into houses and lead captive silly women, laden with sins." This seems to surmise the OM in your case, and mine pretty clearly.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> This is the very first time I have ever placed any blame on the OM...boy I will not do that again...


He deserves plenty of blame for pursuing a married woman. You deserve plenty of blame (which you have never denied) for allowing the pursuit to be successful. You cheated on JA, but you were both responsible for the event.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> This is the very first time I have ever placed any blame on the OM...boy I will not do that again...


 I really am not trying to get on your case, Mrs. A. Really I'm not, but some of the things you have said are, in fact , excuses, and I think you are better than that.
What I'm trying to say is that for the best possible outcome, the WS needs to do a complete 180 in her thought processes.
Last week my ex's new BF called me and asked me about our divorce. They had discussed it because she told him about it the first time he asked her out. Know what she said? She said that the reason we were divorced was because she was (at the time) a bad person and made bad decisions. She didn't make a single excuse or give a single alibi, she told him like it is. So when he called me, I told him the truth. she was a bad wife...then....now she is the most honest person I know. I feel from your posts that you could do the same.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> In all of my posts have you ever seen me place blame on anyone but myself?
> 
> I was making a statement about him...which I don't normally do.
> 
> ...


Hmmm.......and people wonder why WS seldom post on this site.

Mrs. Adams has always taken all the blame. Hell, I think it took me years to convince her he was a scumbag. So, even though she takes the blame.....he is who he is. I love my wife I hate this POSOM. I want her to have no fond memories of him. I would like her to think of him as her worst nightmare. I guess we could all give him kudos for knocking off all the Pu...sy he can. When people in authority take advantage of people, be it Preachers, teachers, coaches, counselors, etc they are scum.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> In all of my posts have you ever seen me place blame on anyone but myself?
> 
> I was making a statement about him...which I don't normally do.
> 
> ...


I was actually responding to Rookies assertion that a cheater has infidelity in them. I wanted to make sure to not take guilt away from men who knowingly sleep with a married woman.

I think in some cases and possibly yours, a cheater does not realize they are capable of infidelity until they have done it.

I believe for warned is for armed. If what I have heard is true, you did not think you had it in you to cheat. It may have helped you prevent what happened if you knew cheating was in your make up, maybe not.

I knew enough about our crappy impulses as humans to avoid cheating. If I never set boundaries with the understanding that I could cheat, I might have at some point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I really am not trying to get on your case, Mrs. A. Really I'm not, but some of the things you have said are, in fact , excuses, and I think you are better than that.
> What I'm trying to say is that for the best possible outcome, the WS needs to do a complete 180 in her thought processes.
> Last week my ex's new BF called me and asked me about our divorce. They had discussed it because she told him about it the first time he asked her out. Know what she said? She said that the reason we were divorced was* because she was (at the time) a bad person and made bad decisions. * She didn't make a single excuse or give a single alibi, she told him like it is. So when he called me, I told him the truth. she was a bad wife...then....now she is the most honest person I know. I feel from your posts that you could do the same.


Lesson to all WS when posting only say what is in bold and shut up.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

JA and Mrs. JA, you both are perfectly free to hate the OM. I hated my wife's Om enough to do him bodily injury (which I do NOT advocate, I don't want the ban hammer falling on me). But don't use it as a crutch. Too many posters use the AP as a whipping boy and are diverted from their own issues, because of it.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

:banghead:


Rookie4 said:


> JA and Mrs. JA, you both are perfectly free to hate the OM. I hated my wife's Om enough to do him bodily injury (which I do NOT advocate, I don't want the ban hammer falling on me). But don't use it as a crutch. Too many posters use the AP as a whipping boy and are diverted from their own issues, because of it.


:banghead:


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Crystal clear Ms Adams. Anyone miss that? Lets drop it. 

She is one of the good ones.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> This is the very first time I have ever placed any blame on the OM...boy I will not do that again...


Didn't you say this? Mrs. A you don't need to shout. Read my posts and the posts of others. Nobody is trying to say that you haven't excepted responsibility. I never have, at least. I agree, let's move on.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> ok time out!!!
> 
> Let me reiterate here what you guys are obviously missing somewhere in the dialogue.
> 
> ...


This thread went off the cliff pretty fast.

I think it's perfectly fine for a WS to hate the OM just as much as the BS, especially if the think they were taken advantage of. Also the OM is a reminder of the pain they caused their marriage, for someone who is as remorseful as Mrs. A I would think it would cause them to trigger thinking about a horrible place in their life they were at that time.
We have very few WS here who stand up from the beginning and take responsibility for what they did and add constructive thoughts to any thread not sure why this thread turned this way.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

badmemory said:


> If forgiveness and reconciliation is a measure of true love; can't it be argued that cheating on your spouse indicates an absence of love?


Absolutely. But that is the problem. The BS's are suppose to rise above it all and the WS should be able to get away with it because afterall, if the BS truly loved their cheater......


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> If people can accept that men compartmentalize sex, why is it difficult to accept that the cheater can do the same under the right circumstances?


Uh, because cheating is betrayal and hurts people.:scratchhead:


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

illwill said:


> Crystal clear Ms Adams. Anyone miss that? Lets drop it.
> 
> She is one of the good ones.


Well then can we have one of the bad ones weigh in on the topic? 

Yes, I understand Ms. Adams situation. Happened years ago. Successful Reconciliation. While I appreciate her and her husband's input on the topic, this thread isn't about them specifically, so the topic at hand can continue with or without them, right?

I'm sure that some of the questions and comments here are not specifically meant for them, but rather a forum for a BS to understand the mind of a WS and what it takes to successfully reconcile rather than opt for divorce. Since I was not offered the opportunity to reconcile (no remorse on the part of my WS) I find the subject fascinating and would really like to understand what steps were taken and what was the mindset and who tried and failed without reading a multitude of other threads (because I'm basically lazy). 

I suppose the one answer I am looking for is - Is love enough? If not, what is the success/fail moment, the moment when the BS knows it's over during a reconciliation. Obviously Mr. and Mrs. Adams do not fall into this question as their marriage remains solid. But, assuming the couple loves each other and tries to reconcile, is there ever a moment when the couple decides to end it anyway, as in can't handle it anymore? Other than a repeat infidelity of course.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> Well then can we have one of the bad ones weigh in on the topic?
> 
> Yes, I understand Ms. Adams situation. Happened years ago. Successful Reconciliation. While I appreciate her and her husband's input on the topic, this thread isn't about them specifically, so the topic at hand can continue with or without them, right?
> 
> ...


The bad ones dont stick around and help others. Got that?


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

illwill said:


> The bad ones dont stick around and help others. Got that?



But their betrayed spouses are still here with stories to tell of what their ws did or didn't do that caused the reconciliation to end in divorce.

Yeah. I "got that" part.

Also, since Mr. Adams is reading, the question could be posed as to a hypothetical - Other than a repeat of the infidelity (which clearly did not happen) is there some other act by Mrs. Adams which would have resulted in a divorce? A game changer? Has he ever considered divorce after he forgave Mrs. Adams?


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> Also, since Mr. Adams is reading, the question could be posed as to a hypothetical - Other than a repeat of the infidelity (which clearly did not happen) is there some other act by Mrs. Adams which would have resulted in a divorce? A game changer? Has he ever considered divorce after he forgave Mrs. Adams?


No


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> I've made no excuses.
> 
> You dont want to follow the thinking because it hurts too much. That's ok. Your characterization of it may be lame, but that's because you won't open your mind to how people can operate at times.
> 
> I am not going to argue this. It doesn't mean that much to me. But the thought is perfectly valid, like it or not.


Ok, so you are saying that the people that cheated on us could have just been preoccupied. So what is it we are suppose to take away from that idea, and how is it you think we should react if we realize they were just "preoccupied"?

Sorry, but its an excuse, and a bullsh*t one at that. I'm not going to look at someone and say, "hey, I understand, you were preoccupied, its ok, I can forget about what you did because your mind was somewhere else."


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> Here are the problems I had with asking "Why".
> 
> The question opens the door to blame shifting. "Because you were ignoring me and not seeing to my needs" which follows with passing the blame and/or guilting the BS.
> 
> ...


Exactly. To me when it comes to dealing with a cheater, it doesn't matter to me "why". "Why" would have been pertinent before the affair and brought to the BS's attention so they could work on the marriage. After the cheating, the BS gets to decide if "why" is important or not. For some it will be IF they want to reconcile. For others, it doesn't matter "why" after they went outside the marriage. What matters is they did.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

rubpy3 said:


> The "why" that WW gave me was that she was bored with the routine sex we have. Is that honest, or still begs further "why"?


The "routine" part probably the fact you weren't someone different every other week.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

vellocet said:


> The "routine" part probably the fact you weren't someone different every other week.


I guess since she is now dancing at porn conventions she has solved her "routine"sex problem.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

*Re: Re: Reconciliation is a sign of love*



vellocet said:


> Uh, because cheating is betrayal and hurts people.:scratchhead:


And no woman was ever hurt by a man's compartmentalization of sex?


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> By the way...just for the record....I am not nor have I ever been...a TROLL...
> 
> I feel much better having gotten that out of the way.:smthumbup:
> 
> ...


Mr. &. Mrs. JA have something really valuable to offer. The reconciliation thread comes and goes. 

Besides it doesn't get the same traffic. I'm trying Reconciliation this forum and posters like these have helped. Not every thread is of value to every person. 

This one is helpful to me. So I appreciate it. 

Thanks.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Apparently Suzie is a "leading expert on overcoming infidelity."

Her line: "True Love is unconditional" is trite and lacks wisdom, in my opinion.

However, I'd need to see more of her articles before I pass judgement.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Philat said:


> :banghead:
> 
> :banghead:


Great! Now I have a headache. Thanks a lot!


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Something else that has not been addressed that I will bring up.

You can love your spouse and not forgive them. You can forgive your spouse and not love them anymore.

You can also love AND forgive your spouse but not be able to trust them or respect them enough to stay with them.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

bfree said:


> Something else that has not been addressed that I will bring up.
> 
> You can love your spouse and not forgive them. You can forgive your spouse and not love them anymore.
> 
> You can also love AND forgive your spouse but not be able to trust them or respect them enough to stay with them.


Forgot one you can love you spouse and divorce them simply because you cannot over come the trust or respect issues and it makes you crazy.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Oh Mylanta....
> 
> 
> I feel like I am in sunday school and we are picking apart every word in the verse.
> ...


I said I was going to drop it and I have. If you want to continue, please do so with somebody else.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bfree said:


> Something else that has not been addressed that I will bring up.
> 
> You can love your spouse and not forgive them. You can forgive your spouse and not love them anymore.
> 
> You can also love AND forgive your spouse but not be able to trust them or respect them enough to stay with them.


Also, Bfree, you should add that the situation is fluid, so may change from time to time. Right after I kicked my wife out, she called me and said that it was all her fault and that she didn't know what she was thinking. Now the first part of that statement was the truth, but the second part was an excuse. So I had very little to base reconciliation on, even if I had been of a mind to do so. It was when she said that it was all her fault and she did it for X, Y, Z reasons, that I began to think we might be able to R. Excuses are almost as bad as trickle truth.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

In fact, I believe that excuses are an unintentional FORM of trickle truth. When I hear a WS say , "I don't know what I was thinking" or "the person who cheated wasn't the real me", "I don't know why I did it" these are ALL excuses and nothing more. All of the love in the world can't help, if you don't know the truth. Reconciliation is a process that DEPENDS on the truth to be effective. So in the final analysis, Reconciliation isn't ONLY an act of love, it is an act of remorse, an act of faith, an act of forgiveness and much more even than that. I believe that reconciliation after adultery is a more profound spiiritual act perhaps, than the original marriage itself.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Depends on the reason.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

For those of you that think that the Christian scriptures concerning love and reconciliation are foolish you can skip his post.


Mr. and Mrs. John Adams have been in R for (30) THIRTY YEARS!!!
They are a wealth of information and hope for those that are in R and both want R.
All you people that seem to think that you need to correct Mr. or Mrs. John Adams need to realize that you have not walked in their shoes for THIRTY YEARS nor have you been successful in R for THIRTY YEARS!!!

I have my retirement 401K in a fund that is managed by a money manager that has been successful for THIRTY years. Is he perfect? NO, But I am going to follow him more than I am someone that has not been successful for 30 years and I am sure not going to follow someone that has not been successful

My situation is a bit like John Adams and we have been successful for 25 years. My wife married me when she was 17 and went to college in her 30s and met the OM. 
I did not spend a whole lot of time trying to figure out what she was thinking, why she did it. I came to the conclusion that all people can be deceitful and selfish to the point of ignoring God completely. 


Jeremiah 17
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?


I also believe that a man who walked this earth once has shown me a higher way to deal with such selfishness


John 8 
New International Version (NIV)
8 1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 at dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.


*“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”*________________________________________

For us scripture believing Christians the forgiveness example above is our first challenge. Jesus does not beat around the bush or wonder what is the right way. He gets down to the ditty gritty and gives sit to us straight. Is it hard? YES but being a follower Of Christ is not for the weak hearted; you will be tested.


*Matthew 6
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.*


These are our goals as followers of Christ. Am I saying that we are all 100% successful all the time? NO, but we work towards that goal and are convinced that goal is the right goal. That is one of the main reasons that I have 25 years of R.
Forgiveness is the first step and there are more steps but the more is to much to talk about right now.

Frankly I do not believe that mankind just by themselves can achieve forgiveness to a high level. Mankind has a part but for such pain as infidelity I think that God is needed. If other people have something that works for them with out God that is fine with me. I have n been satisfied with God helping me for 25 years and do not plan on changing.


Rookie and I have not agreed on some things but I agree 100% with what he has said below

*



By Rookie

Click to expand...

*


> I believe that reconciliation after adultery is a more profound spiritual act perhaps, than the original marriage itself.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Thankee, Blunt. We try.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

That was wonderful Mr Blunt


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

My wife had a long term affair.. 

They say we are what we learn..

Here's what she learned from her role models growing up.

Grandma, always made it known that her lover was her 'love of her life' (his love of his life was his wife, he never left her). So she was the who*r for some married guy, and proud of it. Her husband was cuckold his entire life.

Her two daughters, 
Mom, had my wife at 16, married young, cheated for years with guy at work, left husband and married OM (living what her mom taught her was the dream, she got her OM to marry her!)

Aunt (and friend of my wife), dated a married guy, brought him to all our family functions even though he had a wife at home. He went to the wedding of Mom and OM.. She justified it because his wife had that disease where she couldn't leave the house. (in the vows I think it mentions that makes it okay to cheat)

Her Dads brother, divorced.. his wife cheated with her boss.

So she's faithful, for 25 years of our relationship.. always a good wife as far as tending to my needs. Has a mid life crisis, early 40's, kids are grown and one daughter is in crisis (gets caught with weed), aunt that she hangs out with on weekends moves to another state.. Gets a new job, everyone there is cheating.. she's jealous, they all have so much fun and her life is so horrible, big house, pool, nice car, husband that loves her, good kids, basically everything she's ever wanted in life, boring... She wants some strange, something new and different, and guy in work makes her feel young and desired again.. etc.. etc.. basically she becomes his wh*r, just like mom and grandma, she's living the dream...

Here's where the story takes a twist... I refused to let her continue to believe that it was okay, that any of it was justified. Even her moms happy ending, I reminded her how crushing that was not only to her father, but to her and how now she did that to our family. How her grandma abused her grandfather for decades, and the poor man provided for her while she gave herself to this other guy, that lied to his wife etc... How her father 'never being home' was him working three jobs and going to school so he could support a wife and three kids.. not him gambling or going to the bar or strip club.. How he cherished her mom, they were together since childhood and she just threw him out like yesterdays garbage and moved a guy 4 years older than my wife into her home with her three daughters. How her aunt helped destroy this poor womans with a diseases family.. how not only did this lady have an mental issue, she had a cheating dirtbag husband... that when her aunt wanted him to commit, guess what he decided... We never saw him again...

She finally found out how I really feel about her cheating family history.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> Sorry, but in my mind at the moment of infidelity the marriage is over. The WS does not love the BS.
> If the two want to try to find a different love after the betrayal, well that's up to them. I understand some can actually achieve that. But real love means wanting your partner to be the best of who they are, with out reservation. Love is wanting the other person happy, not above yourself, but merely because the connection means that much to you. Real love is mutual. None of the exists when infidelity enters a relationship. Infidelity is selfish, lying and hurtful which is the opposite of any kind of love. So WS who come on here and speak about loving their spouses while they cheat, should perhaps evaluate what loving someone actually means.


You nailed it Pluto, on many levels. 

The marriage does end at that moment. 

Betrayal and love are mutually exclusive. 

R, that you aptly describe as a 'different kind of love' is difficult and takes years or fails because it's like trying to 'recreate' it all again. 

What's gone is gone.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Also, Bfree, you should add that the situation is fluid, so may change from time to time. Right after I kicked my wife out, she called me and said that it was all her fault and that she didn't know what she was thinking. Now the first part of that statement was the truth, but the second part was an excuse. So I had very little to base reconciliation on, even if I had been of a mind to do so. It was when she said that it was all her fault and she did it for X, Y, Z reasons, that I began to think we might be able to R. Excuses are almost as bad as trickle truth.


Rookie,

If your wife had said she wanted to have sex with another man, would that be a better answer than didn't know what she was thinking? How is she doing now that she no longer has the dream of R to work for?


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

I Know!


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

BjornFree said:


> Let me flip this around.
> 
> Ice cream tempts me, but I'm too poor to afford it. But the ice cream man just won't stop talking about this new sundae that looks too good to be true. So I steal some money from my dad's wallet and next thing you know, I'm enjoying the ice cream.
> 
> ...


No no no....thats not the same thing....

In the story, the ice cream man tempts you, he knows you have no money, and he keeps pushing and persuading you to steal the money to buy it.

You see, the OM knew she was married, but he kept tempting and persuading knowing that he was stealing another mans wife.

Your version is just a guy trying to sell a product best he can with no ill intent.



********** said:


> You nailed it Pluto, on many levels.
> 
> The marriage does end at that moment.
> 
> ...


I am in R with my wife. I accept that my marriage "died". I ripped up all our wedding photos, our anniversary date means nothing anymore. I may not have divorced her in reality, but I divorced her in my heart. 

I am starting over. New beginning, new love, new memories. The old me, the old marriage, the old wife are gone. Time will tell how it goes.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Yes, I guess we all have to determine for ourselves what remorse looks like.

To me, a confused man CAN be a remorseful man. "I wasn't in my right mind" is acceptable to me. Because he sure as hell wasn't.

His behavior for that period WAS out of character for him. The cheating as well as the lying.

I know how he'd been cheated on in a past relationship (and he ended it!), and how he hated liars, so that's why I was totally blindsided. I thought it would never happen to me.

If he hadn't been more attentive to my elderly parents through illnesses and hospitalizations in their final years than my own siblings, and if he hadn't done so much for so many people in his life before his wacky period, I might have ended our relationship.

Prior to starting the EA he developed a new physical health issue that was causing him some ongoing angst, as well as an anxiety problem for which he decided to start weaning off his medication (he'd had a panic attack just a few weeks prior). By the time the PA started, he was on half a pill every other day - as good as taking no medication. So he really wasn't in his right mind. (He's back on his medication, full dose daily now.)

But even though I don't see his physical and mental health issues as an "excuse," I do see them as contributing factors to being vulnerable to an affair. Throw in opportunity, and it's a perfect storm. 

Vulnerability is the key word here. My husband has done wonderful things in his life, and I'm very proud of him for those things - but, as he puts it, he also hurt me more than anyone else ever has. And he is truly sorry for that. But EVERYBODY has weaknesses, everybody has done things they hope nobody ever shines a spotlight on. As I like to say about this subject, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Was this short, nutball period of his life the measure of this man? No. The story of his life is so much richer than that. I've witnessed a lot, and some things that I didn't witness I know about and I'm humbled.

I decided from D-Day that I wouldn't kick him out without giving R a good try. He's a good man who did a bad thing, who went through a relatively short bad period. But the good periods - wow. Looking at the big picture, I just can't see chucking it all over this as long as he's willing to do the hard work of helping me to heal, and working on healing our marriage. Yes, I was in incredible pain at first, and continue to have a lot of pain at times a year from D-Day (hate those triggers), but we've come a long way already and I'm hopeful.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Rookie,
> 
> If your wife had said she wanted to have sex with another man, would that be a better answer than didn't know what she was thinking? How is she doing now that she no longer has the dream of R to work for?


We are both doing a lot better. she was very sad for a while , but I tried to make it as painless as possible and she's a lot better now.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Wow, this thread is a good thread for me too. I'm almost 3 yrs out from DDay, and a little over 2 years of living apart. After what would have been a 30 yr marriage, that I will go to my grave believing was a good long term marriage. 

We are at the early stages of R, if you can even call it that, as I think we both are testing the waters to see which way to go. Is it really possible to survive and rebuilt without the resentment growing as it is coming out of more realist views from life?

It has been a very long time coming, but my h has turn the corner as far as remorse. He truly, sees where he really made a lot of bad mistake in the beginning and is even questing if I can even forgive him for some. He has been saying about how much time we've been apart since, and asking me to help him find his way back too. He needs hope from me. I just dont know if I can give him the kind of love again that he does deserves to have. 

I spend a lot of time in a really nice nursing home because my dad is 94. It is a place that has a common dining room, common tv room, no one is ever alone, the staff sit with everyone 24/7, and during meals helps feeds, cuts foods, holds cups, does all that is needed for each person. It is the next stage after assist living, and the last step before the grave. My mom and dad lived together for 62 yrs. 

I see several couples in this nursing home who are still together. One such couple are at different stages of aging. They sit all a day together on the sofa, she in his arms, crying softy, holding a baby doll. They are French Canadian, and he says even though she was an teacher of English, she remembers not a word, she speaks only French now. Would they even remember an affair now? or even care? 

This is where I struggle so with my husband affair. We had almost what would have been 30 years of a good marriage, ready to go into that next stage of our life together. ((empty nester)) 

I too struggle with, wondering what were you ((H)) thinking each time he walked into that hotel room with the ow? not once, not twice, but for months at at time? What where you thinking when I dropped you off at the airport for you to catch the trip with her? When he's in bed there banging away at her? Was he not even aware of, "Oooops!" My God! When push came to shovel, I know I wasnt loved enough nor my love enough, and now if R happens I still will never know if it is because he now fears it is because he doesn't want to be alone,or realizes what he's lost. It has just changed my whole reality. If this is love...

-sammy


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Perhaps we need a thread about excuses. What they are and how they affect reconciliation? I see a lot of good things in this thread, but a lot of excuses as well. And of course, the ultimate cop-out, " God forgives me, why can't you ?" My wife tried that with me, early on. She even had her minister visit me, to tell me that she was sorry and confessed and has been forgiven , so I should just do the same, and everything would be back to normal. Personally, I think that to invoke God to excuse adultery is wrong in the worst way. Yes, we made our vows in the House of God, but we made them TO each other. So you should atone to the person you wronged.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

sammy3 said:


> Wow, this thread is a good thread for me too. I'm almost 3 yrs out from DDay, and a little over 2 years of living apart. After what would have been a 30 yr marriage, that I will go to my grave believing was a good long term marriage.
> 
> We are at the early stages of R, if you can even call it that, as I think we both are testing the waters to see which way to go. Is it really possible to survive and rebuilt without the resentment growing as it is coming out of more realist views from life?
> 
> ...


Your eyes are wide open and you are being honrst with yourself. Thats the only way to reconcile.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

My wife also tried to give me excuses and fog talk, until she was served. Funny how the bs stopped then.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

HG, your husband is so lucky.  You're an amazing person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I will NEVER, EVER, believe the lie that the WS still loved his/her spouse, during the affair. This is the about the sh*ttiest thing a WS can say. My wife said it to me, and it was the final straw that convinced me to divorce her. That is why I stress the truth as the only truly sure was to R. Sometimes you can R without the full truth, but in order for your NEW marriage to be on safe and secure ground, and for the affair to be truly consigned to the past, the complete truth needs to be known as much as is humanly possible. So I guess that the single most important requirement for R is KNOWLEDGE.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I worry sometimes that my God will still pass a harsh sentence on me...I have to remember that my saviors blood has washed me white as snow...God's forgiveness says it's a though I never committed the sin in the first place. Oh how I trust those words will ring true on judgement day.


It's hard to drop all the burdens at the foot of the cross isn't it? I think we let our own prejudices cloud our view of God's forgiveness. As Christians we have knowledge that all our sins, past and future have already been atoned for by Christ but I don't think we truly comprehend it. We find it easy to confess those little sins, but the big ones, we tend to hang on to those. Or maybe we've become so used to the weight of our burden that when we truly shed that burden at the foot of the cross we feel uneasy without the weight on our consciousness. We try to pick that burden back up. We try to re-wrap ourselves in the chains because we're used to them.

Scripture alone, faith alone, grace alone, Christ alone, to God alone be the glory. Let there be no doubt in your mind, that if you have placed your full trust in Christ, you will not be ashamed on judgement day. Christ's righteousness IS your righteousness.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

A good analogy would be that I wanted to re-wire my Grandparents farm house. I wanted a complete job done. Wired for electricity, sound, security , the works. Now.....I WANT the job done, I LOVE my old house, I can PRAY that it is done, I have the manual dexterity to do the job, I have the hand-eye coordination to do the job, I have the materials, the plans, the will and the time to do the job. What I don't have is the KNOWLEDGE to do the job.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I will NEVER, EVER, believe the lie that the WS still loved his/her spouse, during the affair. This is the about the sh*ttiest thing a WS can say. My wife said it to me, and it was the final straw that convinced me to divorce her. That is why I stress the truth as the only truly sure was to R. Sometimes you can R without the full truth, but in order for your NEW marriage to be on safe and secure ground, and for the affair to be truly consigned to the past, the complete truth needs to be known as much as is humanly possible. So I guess that the single most important requirement for R is KNOWLEDGE.


If that is love, i hope no one ever loves me that way.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I will NEVER, EVER, believe the lie that the WS still loved his/her spouse, during the affair. This is the about the sh*ttiest thing a WS can say. My wife said it to me, and it was the final straw that convinced me to divorce her. That is why I stress the truth as the only truly sure was to R. Sometimes you can R without the full truth, but in order for your NEW marriage to be on safe and secure ground, and for the affair to be truly consigned to the past, the complete truth needs to be known as much as is humanly possible. So I guess that the single most important requirement for R is KNOWLEDGE.


When a relative told me "forgiving means to stop asking questions" I told her that forgiving, means I need to know what I'm forgiving, and the questions and answers are how I find out, not only what I'm forgiving, but if she was able to finally give me honesty instead of more bullsh*t and cover up.. and that I had no desire to help her keep her secrets and precious memories safe, I want her to have to go over each one and give it thought, see what and where it went and was wrong... I also explained about how honesty rebuilds intimacy, and lies and trickle truth build more fear and mis-trust, and eventually destroys the relationship, what's left of it.. and also mentioned how the experts say it's important not to listen to all the bad advice you'll get...


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> And no woman was ever hurt by a man's compartmentalization of sex?


As long as the man isn't cheating it shouldn't matter. If there is no exclusivity agreement between a man and a woman, it shouldn't matter who compartmentalizes what.

But when you have an exclusivity agreement between two people and one cheats, compartmentalizing has no bearing on the betrayal.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

russell28 said:


> I told her that forgiving, means I need to know what I'm forgiving, and the questions and answers are how I find out, not only what I'm forgiving, but if she was able to finally give me honesty instead of more bullsh*t and cover up..


Exactly!!


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

Nope. Not really. I think reconciliation is a sign of something else. But I'm bias, like the article in OP's post. 

I still love my wife. And when I say"love" I mean literally, I am still in love with her and her me. 

But.... I can't reconcile with her. I'm not that guy. Nope.


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## Csquare (Jan 14, 2014)

So on TAM I've heard all sorts of reason why people cheat: selfish, greedy, cake-eater, callousness towards BS,....I'm sure there are some who cheat for these reasons.

My mom cheated and I watched my parents for years. The reason she cheated was lack of self-love or maybe even self-hatred.

My mom was stunningly beautiful. Many times in crowded places she was clearly the most beautiful woman there. Yet, she was always critical of her own looks. She was smart, creative and talented, but she never *knew* it - always needing that verified by others. ("SO-and-so said I was smart, so I must be". As if there was ever any question.)

Beautiful, smart, poised woman who look like the world is their oyster often grapple with the most crippling insecurities. Totally irrational, but unshakeable. Maybe they believe their worth is tied to their beauty, which is ephemeral. What happens when they age, have an accident, get sick and lose their beauty? Will they still be loved?

A lot of men on CWI seem totally perplexed why their W's cheat but then want to hang on to the marriage. I think these kinds of women deep down feel unworthy and unbelieving of their H's love. OM - who they don't *really* want - is just to verify their value.

I think R could be successful with these types of W, but s/he would have to do work and get to root of insecurities.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Thank you so much Sandc...I know God has forgiven me...and so has John. I am a lucky woman...so very blessed.


You must now forgive yourself to take the next step. You have been given a gift and when you forgive yourself, you accept the gift.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> HG, your husband is so lucky.  You're an amazing person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you SP. That's very kind of you to say.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Hopeful girl. ...I really like what you said! I mean REALLY! That is one of the best stories I have read here. You are a total gem!


Thanks much Mrs JA. I really appreciate that.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By *Mrs. John Adams*
> John and I have a good marriage. I have been a good wife...not a perfect one...but I have been devoted to him and have in every way I know how.



First, I am glad to see Mrs. JA post this. It is so encouraging to see a person that has so damaged themselves but then be able to make the statement of “I have been a good wife” That statement means that she has rebuilt her damaged self respect and self esteem, THAT IS ENCOURAGING! In addition to that being encouraging it should give those WSs out there that want to do better real HOPE!

It is also refreshing to hear that “John and I have a good marriage” the reason that it is so refreshing is that sometimes, on this forum, we spend a little too much time talking about what the WS did wrong. That maybe helpful in some cases but what is needed to get back to a good marriage is getting to what works. If you have a WS that wants to do better and comes to this site, they will be looking for Hope and encouragement more than what they did wrong. Most WS have a pretty good idea what they did wrong.


Is there immense pain in infidelity? Everyone that has experienced infidelity knows that. Is the WS selfish and deceitful? Every one knows that also. Do we need to keep asking why, why, why, for a year or two? Not for me. I can understand asking for the first year maybe but then it will boil down to the root cause which is selfishness and/or a lack of moral integrity. Since I believe that every one on this forum has been selfish and/or lacked moral integrity at least once in their life I say that we look for ways to do better and stop the pounding of the WS after we have pounded the WS 2-4 times.

Since we do not have many posters like the Adams couple (30 years of successful R) lets look at what has worked for them.

*After all, isn’t one of the goals after infidelity to be a good spouse and have a good marriage?*


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> First, I am glad to see Mrs. JA post this. It is so encouraging to see a person that has so damaged themselves but then be able to make the statement of “I have been a good wife” That statement means that she has rebuilt her damaged self respect and self esteem, THAT IS ENCOURAGING! In addition to that being encouraging it should give those WSs out there that want to do better real HOPE!
> 
> It is also refreshing to hear that “John and I have a good marriage” the reason that it is so refreshing is that sometimes, on this forum, we spend a little too much time talking about what the WS did wrong. That maybe helpful in some cases but what is needed to get back to a good marriage is getting to what works. If you have a WS that wants to do better and comes to this site, they will be looking for Hope and encouragement more than what they did wrong. Most WS have a pretty good idea what they did wrong.
> 
> ...


What "works" isn't necessarily what is good in all cases.. I applaud MR. & Mrs. JA for their reconciliation, and wish them well, but what "works " for one set of circumstances, is poison in another situation. I am simply pointing out that their road to recovery isn't, by any means , a blueprint for all, and can even be a deal breaker. What Mr. JA or you or me are willing to accept as the basis for reconciliation, may be completely different, and none of us are completely right, but none of us are completely wrong. My posts are merely cautionary notes, to other posters, to this effect.


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## standinginthegap (Jan 16, 2014)

hawx20 said:


> You see, the OM knew she was married, but he kept tempting and persuading knowing that he was stealing another mans wife.


This isn't always the case, sometimes it be the married person doing the persuading, tempting, going after another.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Hawx20, You can't steal what is given to you .


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

TheFlood117 said:


> Nope. Not really. I think reconciliation is a sign of something else. But I'm bias, like the article in OP's post.
> 
> I still love my wife. And when I say"love" I mean literally, I am still in love with her and her me.
> 
> But.... I can't reconcile with her. I'm not that guy. Nope.


Flood,

For you and your exWW would reconciliation mean remarriage?

You ate dinner together and had sex. Wasn't that a kind of reconciliation?

Have you admitted that you still love her?

Does she have the ability to read you? I mean does she know that you still feel for her?

She placed great hopes on the dinner. Does she consider it a failure? 

How is her therapy going?

Could you consider sleeping over night with her?


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Csquare said:


> So on TAM I've heard all sorts of reason why people cheat: selfish, greedy, cake-eater, callousness towards BS,....I'm sure there are some who cheat for these reasons.
> 
> My mom cheated and I watched my parents for years. The reason she cheated was lack of self-love or maybe even self-hatred.
> 
> ...


Your mom sounds like my wife... When she hit mid life, she got to a point where she started to question her beauty, and her success in life.. she'd say things about her job, and her pay, and about how she's a failure, so I'd remind her about how without her I wouldn't have a good job, and how she's a great mother and wife etc.. Because our daughter was hanging with pot heads, she figured she failed as a parent too.. all negatives, never seeing the positives. It wasn't enough to help me get a good job, she wanted to help herself.. I should have built her up without saying she helped me, it wasn't about me, it was about her feeling low about herself.. I figured she could take pride in her family, and her husband.. she needed validation from outside. I guess she also didn't feel desirable, and thought I was just going through the motions because I felt bad for her.. also figured I was cheating, since in her world, that's what people did.

I mentioned the grandma always telling of how her OM was the love of her life, making it well known that grandpa was cuckold.. All the girls knew, she'd give advice to the mom and grand-daughters like 'god gave you a nice ass use it' and 'show them while you got them'.. typical grandma stuff. Never a mention of smart, or anything along those lines.. So my wife was a flirt and liked to dress in revealing clothing, why? It's what she learned.. I'm not making excuses for her, I'm saying that along with the 'love', there needs to be much understanding as well..

After reading much, and MC, my wife now realizes it was her own insecurities and self destructive behavior that was the problem, not the marriage.. She's working hard to fix herself, but it's a major challenge since the Affair gave them the illusion of being in control and desired, and after it's killed off, they feel pretty low (if they get to a point where they actually start being honest with themselves, very few seem to get there).. It's a struggle, because the BS doesn't want to start building up the WS, it's not a normal reaction to pump up their ego or help with their self-esteem right after dday.. I would imagine it'll take quite a bit of work to get there. If I trigger, and my wife asks if it's something she's doing.. I just tell her it's thoughts about stuff that happened in the past, and right now she's treating me good and I love that. I know she's probably at that point kicking herself, thinking how she should have been treating me good all along, what was she thinking etc... It's a vicious cycle..


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> First, I am glad to see Mrs. JA post this. It is so encouraging to see a person that has so damaged themselves but then be able to make the statement of “I have been a good wife” That statement means that she has rebuilt her damaged self respect and self esteem, THAT IS ENCOURAGING! In addition to that being encouraging it should give those WSs out there that want to do better real HOPE!
> 
> It is also refreshing to hear that “John and I have a good marriage” the reason that it is so refreshing is that sometimes, on this forum, we spend a little too much time talking about what the WS did wrong. That maybe helpful in some cases but what is needed to get back to a good marriage is getting to what works. If you have a WS that wants to do better and comes to this site, they will be looking for Hope and encouragement more than what they did wrong. *Most WS have a pretty good idea what they did wrong*.
> 
> ...


From what I see, most DON'T have any clue what they've done.. or the level of what they've done, they are still full of justifications, excuses and reasons... They'll give you a list of what the BS has done wrong, not what they've done wrong.. 

I think people like Mrs. JA are rare, and I'm thankful my wife is one of the ones that 'gets it'... it means that if I stay or eventually go, at least I've been able to get some closure, and things that other BS' don't get.. Like her owning her actions, and not put them on me.. her to apologize, and mean it, her to offer to leave if it's what I need to feel better. I wish more WS had an idea of what they have done.. or even better, more people have an idea about what they are ABOUT to do, and NOT do it.. to avoid all this.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

Getting back to the original article, Reconciliation is a sign of Love. I do not completely agree with the article, however, the only way you can have a real reconciliation is love.

Adultery is a deal breaker for many people. I for one would have never thought I would stay in a marriage where my wife was unfaithful. I am a person with strong guiding principles in the way I lead my life. There have been houses we almost bought that i backed out of due to the principle of what I thought was less than honest negotiations. I have turned down jobs over my principles. I have argued with my wife and kids over principles I would not compromise. So, something so heinous as adultery is beyond my comprehension for forgiveness. I completely understand those betrayed spouses that can not move beyond this injustice and choose to divorce. 

When my wife told me of her affair, I was devastated. I can not explain how off guard this caught me. We always felt that God had brought us together. I felt we had a special love that could never be severed. I was in it for life. All marriages have peaks and valleys. We were in a valley. I was concerned, but completely confident that we would rise once again to our normal peak. Then it happened. The initial shock, panic and lunge into depression is indescribable. I loved her, but, how do you handle this? I knew what ever decision I made would impact the rest of my life. I decided to try to save our marriage. I initially worked the hardest to save it. My wife still gives me credit for saving our marriage. Without a very strong love, I could never have done it. I know we could debate, how could she love me and do that, but at this point the debates are over. 

We have been in successful reconciliation for 30 years. For the most part, 30 very good years. I suffered triggers. I went into deep depression once or twice a year. But, it was worth it to me to have the love of my life.

I looked at our life, our marriage as before and after. I had a very difficult time thinking about our marriage prior to the affair. Because to me, there must have been something terrible wrong with it to have caused an affair. When I looked at family pictures, they were before and after (the affair). Old memories were not the same. As I have seen stated on here, I guess we had a new marriage.

I came to TAM because even though I was sure my wife loved me, even though I felt she was sorry, even though I thought we had a good life, something was missing. The missing ingredient to me was remorse. Now she felt she had been remorseful, I did not. Perception is truth and my perception was there was not complete remorse. I came here, started my own thread on remorse and asked what is remorse. As the thread took it's own life, many of the wise posters on here told me your wife has been living a life of remorse for 30 years. Actions speak much louder than words. A poster also recommended the book " how to help your spouse heal from your affair". My wife read the book and saw some of the subtle things she had said wrong or used the wrong wording. It helped her understand, it helped her express her remorse in the words I needed to hear. Though she has always been sorry, always had remorse, finally it sunk in to me that she was truly remorseful. She gets it, she understands the damage her actions caused, she knows what she almost threw away, she knows that it was my choice to stay. 

In the last several months, we have moved our reconciliation up a notch. I have got to the point that our marriage is not longer "before and after", we have a continuous marriage with many happy memories going back to out first years. This is a great step in reconciliation and one I hope other couples reach. 

Reconciliation is hard, it is not for all, I understand but without love there is not chance for reconciliation.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Mr and Mrs Adams, I am so glad the both of you are posting her. Its so uncanny how Mr A sounds a lot like me and Mrs A sounds a lot like my wife. Gives me hope.

So that book you had Mrs A read really helped? I may have to pick that up for my wife too.

Right now, I feel as you once did regarding the marriage before and after. I totally feel that my "old" marriage is dead and gone. I have no plan to celebrate our anniversary as it doesnt mean anything to me anymore. I ripped up our wedding photos on dday. When I look at pictures of us as a family, I no longer see what I once did. Now I look at them, look at her, and wonder if she had screwed him by then. I look at myself and see a guy who has no idea what happened or what was about to happen to life as he knew it.

I know I could have done better in my marriage. Would it have stopped her from having an affair? Maybe, maybe not. That decision was hers alone. I know that either way I had the short end of the stick in our marriage prior to knowing about the affair and I never once thought about having one.

Everyday is a struggle, even the so called good days. My wife has done everything right so far but I dont think she truly understands the depth of the pain she has caused and how long it will linger.

Regarding the topic of the thread, I think its a broad stroke to say that. Some are because of love, but others are because of fear and weakness. R is an act of love in my case. Its the love for my children, their well being and happiness, and its always an act of love for my wife. She is the one I chose to be with and the mother of my child. If there is someone worth going to hell and back for, its her.


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## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> I know I could have done better in my marriage.


It bothers me that you keep typing this, given the context. Everyone alive can be a better spouse, parent, child, worker, worshiper, etc. I know you go on to distance it from your wife's behavior, yet you have typed it more than several times. Everyone could have done better. I could have, and I still can do better in my marriage.

I'm rooting for you.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> Mr and Mrs Adams, I am so glad the both of you are posting her. Its so uncanny how Mr A sounds a lot like me and Mrs A sounds a lot like my wife. Gives me hope.
> 
> So that book you had Mrs A read really helped? I may have to pick that up for my wife too.


Hawx, Yes, the book really helped. It helped to describe to Mrs. Adams how I felt and the actions she needed to take to help me heal. For the book to work, your wife has to be serious about R. It sounds like you are both in love and want to R so I am sure she will do whatever it take to help you.



hawx20 said:


> I know I could have done better in my marriage. Would it have stopped her from having an affair? Maybe, maybe not. That decision was hers alone. I know that either way I had the short end of the stick in our marriage prior to knowing about the affair and I never once thought about having one.
> 
> Everyday is a struggle, even the so called good days. My wife has done everything right so far but I dont think she truly understands the depth of the pain she has caused and how long it will linger.


I can relate to what you are saying. I know I could have done better. I know that I was not pleasant to be around during this time frame. I have often wondered if only I had done so and so. But the reality is she chose to have the affair. Regardless of what you may have done or not done, you did not deserve this! Your wife at this time probably does not realize the depth of the pain she caused. I think the book does a good job in letting the WS know how significant their betrayal was. I wish I could tell you the road to recovery is short, it is not. You have the main ingredient required for recovery, desire. I wish you the best of luck.



hawx20 said:


> Regarding the topic of the thread, I think its a broad stroke to say that. Some are because of love, but others are because of fear and weakness. R is an act of love in my case. Its the love for my children, their well being and happiness, and its always an act of love for my wife. She is the one I chose to be with and the mother of my child. If there is someone worth going to hell and back for, its her.


When you R for love your chance for success is great. I also understand it goes beyond your wife. It is the love of your children, your family, your life. You probably will and have been to hell and back over this.....if only they had thought about the impact of their actions. Wow, how do smart people hurt others like this. At one time I thought this only happened on TV. No one deserves what you are going through. The best of luck to you and your wife as you go on this hard journey.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Hope is certainly a great motivator. False hope , however, is a spirit crusher. Learning the difference is called maturity.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Mr. and Mrs. Adams, again, thanks for your kind words. I may feel differently later on in life, but for now I dont regret ripping up those pictures. 

Maybe its a coping mechanism, but I truly feel that marriage is dead. Those pictures just dont feel real to me anymore. I really have no interest in ever seeing those pictures again. 

I can never stop thanking you enough for the hope you two have given. My wife knows that I post online but I havent told her about this site, but I have told her about you two and how much your story sounds like ours. Your story has given her hope as well. 



1812overture said:


> It bothers me that you keep typing this, given the context. Everyone alive can be a better spouse, parent, child, worker, worshiper, etc. I know you go on to distance it from your wife's behavior, yet you have typed it more than several times. Everyone could have done better. I could have, and I still can do better in my marriage.
> 
> I'm rooting for you.


Let me be clear, I have never blamed myself at all for her affair. That was her weakness and selfishness that led to it. She was snapped back to reality when she got busted and, in a way, I did too. Its not like we were perfectly happy and then one random day she ended up at a hotel with him. There were issues....she just chose the easy and selfish way to handle them.

In retrospect, I was a bit boring. I'm an introvert, a home body, and she isnt. She wanted to be spontaneous more. I loved the same ole, same ole. I definitely went full beta as the sex declined. As the sex declined and she started being less loving, I turned into a frustrated and short tempered person. I stopped courting her, stopped trying to date her. 

The one thing I do blame myself for is I never made her fear losing me. I turned full beta because I thought I was doing what a good husband was supposed to do. That was my one major mistake. She mistook not having a fear of losing me for not being in love. She took me for granted and I allowed it. I blame myself for these actions which caused us to get out of sync. Like I said, the affair is completely on her. I was a good husband and did not deserve for her to do this.

After dday my eyes were opened, as were hers it seems. Its only been 2.5 months but I am not the same person I was. I like the person I am now much more than I do the person I was for the past couple of years. I'm spontaneous, more out going, not resistant to change, and I want to date my wife again. Most importantly.....I do not fear losing her. I dont take her for granted, I dont want to lose her, but I dont fear it. There were times when I was overly beta because I feared losing her. 

I want to be the best husband I can be. I do that by becoming a better, happier, and stronger man for myself. She has two options....live out the rest of her life in love with a man who loves her, the father of her children, and be happy.....or she can screw around again, find herself divorced, alone, knowing she will never find someone like me. I am the exception in her taste for men. Her ex before me, her AP who is the sperm donor for my stepson, are the poster boys for the word "loser".

I will be fine either way. I cant say the same about her.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

A while back, I almost bought that book you guys are talking about. I'll definitely have to get it now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Rookie*
> I am simply pointing out that their road to recovery isn't, by any means , *a blueprint for all*, and can even be a deal breaker.



*Rookie, where did I say that the Adams road to recovery is a blueprint for ALL?*
You have either misread my post or you have assumed something that is not there.
I did not say that the Adams road to recovery is a blueprint for ALL.


I DID say “Since we do not have many posters like the Adams couple (30 years of successful R) lets look at what has worked for them.” 
*I stand by my statement as I think that a WS looking to do better and for hope should take a look at what works for someone that has been successful for 30 years!*


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

*By Mr Blunt*
Most WS have a pretty good idea what they did wrong.




> *By Russell28*
> From what I see, most DON'T have any clue what they've done. or the level of what they've done, they are still full of justifications, excuses and reasons...



You are probably right Russell. I had my concentration on Mrs. Adams in that post and did not think my statement through enough. *My bad*


Also I was thinking that the posters telling the WS what they did wrong more than 2-4 times was enough and talking about what works would better balance out the approach to help. In my experience telling a WS 2-4 times what they did wrong was enough for them to accept it or not. However, maybe some WS needs to be told more than 4 times. *I retract my statement.*


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By John Adams*
> The only way you can have a real reconciliation is love.


I agree that love is one of the main ingredients for real reconciliation.





> *By John Adams*
> I know we could debate, how could she love me and do that, but at this point the debates are over


.


That was part of what I was getting at in my previous post. When someone is past the point of “…how can she love me and do that”, can a couple that keeps debating why, why, why, go on to the next steps? * John did a much better job addressing that issue than I did.*


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> *Rookie, where did I say that the Adams road to recovery is a blueprint for ALL?*
> You have either misread my post or you have assumed something that is not there.
> I did not say that the Adams road to recovery is a blueprint for ALL.
> 
> ...


Blunt, I was disagreeing with you, not contradicting you. You are perfectly free to believe what you will. And, BTW, so am I.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> I agree that love is one of the main ingredients for real reconciliation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your first statement is true. Your second statement is very questionable , at best. 
It is pretty much a consensus that reconciliation is a process that must be learned. You face each issue then proceed to the next . Some people attach greater importance to one issue over another. It is no quick fix. Before you can run, you must learn to walk, before you walk, you must learn to crawl. Now given that everybody learns at their own pace, people reconcile and address the issues that they have, at the pace they require. An example is when a WS says that the Affair is past and that the BS should just get over it. You cannot force the pace, you must adjust your expectations to the pace and issues of the BS, in order to R. Mr. A forgave his wife a lot quicker than I would have, but that does not make him right and me wrong. We are just different individuals, working at our own pace.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Rookie*
> I am simply pointing out that their road to recovery isn't, by any means , a *blueprint for all*, and can even be a deal breaker.
> 
> 
> ...





You are disagreeing with me about something that I did not say. Also you did not answer my question but then again you do not have to.

My post had nothing to do with us being free to believe for you or I. Your last sentence is assuming a topic that is not there.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I've been thinking that the construct that the wayward spouse died is just as ridiculous as the idea that they never loved you at the time they cheated.

Cheating is an assault.

The marriage didn't die. The wayward didn't die.

Reality just isn't what you thought it was.

The idea of retroactive jealousy is the same.

It is all about accepting that your belief system was not based on fact.

All of the things people tell themselves after being cheated on are to help them live with reality. And that reality might not even be reality.

Coping with the decision to stay or to go... Trying to regain self esteem. 
It is all a construct based partly on what is and partly on what you can handle.

So you can argue all you want. Your opinion is what works for you or doesn't. 

But none of it is inherently true.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Or, ALL of it is true. You can question what is real, forever, but how does that help?


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

That book turn my husband around after me beating my head against a wall for over two years, in less than a week! He just finished reading it...

...He finally, "Gets it!" 

-sammy

Thx u hopefulgirl


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

sammy3 said:


> That book turn my husband around after me beating my head against a wall for over two years, in less than a week! He just finished reading it...
> 
> ...He finally, "Gets it!"
> 
> ...


You're welcome. It's a short book but in those few pages it really helps a WS understand how we feel, and gives specific "tools" and tips re how to help US to feel better. I'm SO glad to hear that it helped!


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Oh Sammy! I am so very happy for you! Yay!!
> It's the best book for us bad guys!


Is the author Linda J McDonald and is the book roughly 90 pages? If so, I found it free online and read it just now. It was pretty accurate and already called my wife and asked her to read it tonight.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> Is the author Linda J McDonald and is the book roughly 90 pages? If so, I found it free online and read it just now. It was pretty accurate and already called my wife and asked her to read it tonight.


That's the book. I bought a hard copy. I highlighted specific passages that I particularly wanted my husband to read. Hope it helps you too.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

She has the ebook free on her website and I wanted to read it before giving it to my wife. Pretty good stuff there. I really want my wife to understand how long getting over this can take. I dont think she truly understands how deep she cut me and how long it takes to overcome this.


"The betrayal and all its aspects are constantly on the mind
of the faithful spouse. In fact, nearly all betrayed spouses be
come obsessive for a season. It is a daily, hourly, and in the
early months, a minute-by-minute battle for the wounded
spouse to think about anything else. Painful associations often re-traumatize the spouse, causing him/her to relive the
shock of the affair over and over again."

Excerpt from the book that hit the nail on the head. I'm in relatively good moods now a days, but I always feel a need to come here, even when I try to avoid it. 

I feel torn because as much as I want to forget about it, I dont want to forget about it....if that makes any sense


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> She has the ebook free on her website and I wanted to read it before giving it to my wife. Pretty good stuff there. I really want my wife to understand how long getting over this can take. I dont think she truly understands how deep she cut me and how long it takes to overcome this.


I don't know if any WS can ever fully, completely, and deeply understand the initial gut punch and the ongoing sense of loss that infidelity leaves with the BS. (Can anyone who's not been in battle ever truly understand what combat veterans have experienced?) But this little book comes as close as anything to "turning on the light" and helping the WS to get a glimpse into our world. 

I would suggest that you may never "get over" this either, hawx. We have a combination of trauma and grief going on. With grief, a loss is always a loss. When you grieve, something that's gone is gone forever, and in our case, if we stay married to our WS we will never have a spouse that didn't cheat on us. But, as with any loss and with all kinds of grief, there IS healing, and you CAN move forward. For people who choose R, the most important person in the healing process for the BS is the WS. If they do it right - and How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair really helps point them in the right direction (it's SO easy to get it wrong!) - it can make a world of difference.

The scar will always be there, and we may have triggers (though less intense and less frequent) for years to come. People who have lost loved ones feel pangs of loss for the rest of their lives, but the sting turns to more of an ache - the pain isn't crippling like it was at first. So don't aim to "get over" this so much as heal yourself and your marriage, and learn and grow together.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Facing your shame shows strength in love for the BS.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Hopeful girl I agree with you 100%
> 
> But I would like to add something.
> I know my husband hurts and I am committed to healing what I have done to him in every way I can.
> ...


Mrs JA, I only know that I don't know very much. And that I have a lot to learn. I think anyone who thinks they have all the answers about human behavior is full of it. Or full of him or herself. There are a lot of things that we seek to come as close to understanding as we can, but we may continue to find new insights about ourselves, and about certain periods in our own lives, as the years go by. So what we think we've sort of figured out now may look quite different in a few years. 

And anyway, sometimes we just have to stop trying to figure it out for awhile, and say, I've explored that ad nauseum, and got as close as I'm going to get to all the contributing factors that took me to that behavior at that time in my life. We can always come back (our brains may go there some days anyway, without intending to focus or "work on it").

But I know that for the truly remorseful, it hurts to know that you hurt your spouse. My husband hurts too. I had a bad trigger recently and he held me while I cried and we got through it together, and he apologized for being the cause of this. He used to talk fairly frequently about hating liars, but he doesn't do that anymore and I assume it's because he became one of "them" when he cheated on me. That was a key part of his identity - his integrity - so I think that's been a source of pain in this journey for him too. If there was any way he could turn back time and undo it, I know he would, and I know you would too. 

So we all try to make "sense" of this stuff, and hey - all we can do is the best we can, and do it with love and a little laughter. And a little help from our friends.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

I have all the answers. The problem is that someone went and changed all the damned questions. Now I'm lost.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Hopeful girl I agree with you 100%
> 
> But I would like to add something.
> I know my husband hurts and I am committed to healing what I have done to him in every way I can.
> ...


That, dear lady, makes so much sense to me I find it profound! That is a "nail on the head" statement.

Well said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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