# She came home with the police and took our son away



## Sad Man

Hi. Rough last month or so culminating in a humiliating heartbreak last night.

About a month ago she told me she loved me but wasn't in love with me,, seems to be a common trend here? So naturally I did some soul searching. About 4 months prior she went through a super horny stage, (yes, that's another strike) and of course this is after about a year of weight loss and getting fit and healthy. 

We have been together for 25 years, and had our little boy almost 7 years ago. I am the most loving and responsible Dad I honestly know. Ive not been perfect with her, I always put our family first above any other thing to a fault sometimes I gather now that ive been focused on US first instead of noticing her little needs at times.

I have never been violent, threatening, unfaithful. I do not drink, do drugs, gamble, womanize or cheat, and every moment of my day is spent working towards making our house better, or vehicles better or god knows what. and that in itself is part of the problem

Things began to go sour about 7 years ago when she became hardcore on facebook, that morphed into texting and whatnot on her phone, so much so that she often sits in other room than me and our son. She has spent this summer quickly whisking my boy away to go to some prearranged meeting with my sons friends at parks, swimming pools etc. She works non stop too. She is amazingly busy which is how I cannot accept that there is someone else. Of course with that weight loss came the wearing of thongs again, and waxing and the usual other stuff.

I have seen her phone contacts, found a couple of questionable people, one being an ex that never amounted to anything, but I did get her to admit he contacted her, ironically around the horny time.

So I am not without fault in this. As she withdrew from me I slunk back in my chair and into a state of depression somewhat, trying to let her live her life and not interfere, especially since she was taking my boy everywhere. I didn't want to be the odd man out with the other single mothers (most of them are) so I just made myself busy elsewhere.

We were working on things and supposed to meet in the morning with a neutral party who has the wisdom and ability to speak frankly to both of us. Today she picked up our son from school (odd) then disappeared on errands and whatnot, all the time lying to me about where she was because she finally came home around 8 pm, 2-3 hours later than 'normal" but she showed up with the police to collect some of her things. I was shocked, but not totally. 

I have never been violent, threatening or anything of the such. For her to humiliate me in front of the neighbourhood like that is ridiculous but I cant change that.

Our son is "somewhere safe" like he wasn't safe here???

I'm expecting to talk to her today, its now 6 am and I haven't slept a wink.

is it a lying cheating thing? all the hallmarks are there yet she strongly denies and I honestly cant see where she would have found the time. She could be an honest walk away wife, like I'm reading about too. 

But I think she did this today because she didn't want to face the third party who wasn't going to be scared to call a spade a spade.

shes also inundated with 2 of her coworkers who have seemed to be undermining any progress we made on our days off. When she went back to work (3 days/week) every time she came home angry at me. 

What do I do? I live in Ontario Canada and its no fault from what Ive read tonight. I'm a basketcase. She says she wanted time and I was pushing too much trying to address every little issue (which I see is also typical) but today I pushed too hard.

and I did something stupid today. I called her work and asked to speak to the woman that was meddling so much into our lives. I told her who I was and asked her to do us all a favour and to mind her own f'in business which was met with a hangup.

but police? sheesh!

I'm a mess, please people talk me down!


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## KaraBoo0723

Wow, my heart hurts for you and your son. I have no pearls of wisdom or sage advice for your situation, just want you to know that you and your family will be in my thoughts. In your situation I think the best plan of attack would be to not have any communication with anyone associated with your wife or her work, at least until you have a better understanding of what she's trying to pull. I would also secure finances to be sure they don't disappear suddenly. I would also speak with legal counsel as soon as possible to be sure all bases are covered and to be certain that I would not do or say anything that could be used against me by a bitter and venomous spouse. 

I truly am sorry for what you're going through, gather all of the support available to you so that you and your son can heal and move forward.


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## Sad Man

thanks so much, your response brought the first tears to my eyes since this happened as I am shocked that she went to that extent.

She says she needs to go to counselling and deal with her issues first, which she never can tell me what they are.

Today I will be open to her return before our son gets hurt. She texted me and told me she told him that there was a mouse in our house and it was best for them to stay away until it was caught. She continues to lie like crazy about everything!

She had some thyroid issues over the last 2 years and part of me thinks shes having a mental issue in her head, but I cant reach her, yet she accuses me of being the distant one.

I'm so confused.

edit, I will be going to the courthouse in the morning so I can arrange to see my loving son again fast! In 7 years I have only ever missed carrying him to bed and tucking him in like 5 times because I was away for work. Now his bed and my house is empty. and I don't even know where he is!! 

I will also go to the bank and see whats gone on with our joint account. We don't have much money and neither of us can afford to live in this house (my family home) by ourselves.


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## TJW

Sad Man said:


> So I am not without fault in this.


Yes, you are. Adultery is a choice made unilaterally by the adulterer. It has nothing, nothing, nothing to do with the betrayed spouse. The adulterer gives him/herself permission to conduct the affair based on "blame" of the betrayed spouse. The adulterer rationalizes that their behavior is a "response", but in reality, it is not, it has its origin within the adulterer, it is done because it "feels good". There's really not any other reason.

They all have one thing in common : they're liars.

While it is true that the betrayed spouse can contribute to marital problems, he/she cannot contribute to adultery. The fact is, when faced with marital problems, as there are in every marriage, a morally-upright, decent, obedient person will choose to remain faithful, and a lying, morally-repugnant, selfish scoundrel will choose to commit adultery.

Just that simple. The shoe fits, and it must be worn.


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## Lostinthought61

You need to get the bank asap and that have of your saving and checking...open up a separate account to redirect your checks, some one does this will try to clean you out she has been working this for a while...also check phone records....and change the locks on the house...do this today...


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## Sad Man

Bank for sure, it may be too late, but there isn't much anyway.. in fact I will be within 60 days of losing everything without a miracle.

I cant get the phone records, I did open the last cell phone bill of hers and its not detailed at all. It just says number of messages etc.. and its in her name.

I want to change the locks too, but isn't it still her house too? I think its illegal? although it shouldn't be illegal to change locks on my house whenever I please. 

I have to think she has been working on this for awhile.

I did get some words in while the cops "kept the peace" (I behaved very rationally and calmly with only very minor outbursts of discontent) and she said she wasn't trying to keep me out of our sons life etc... I'm still not sure if this is the end of the road or this was her way of getting the "space" she needs while she seeks counselling?

although, to me, once the seal is opened to damage my sons perfectly pain free innocence, I don't think I will be turning back. I've done everything I could in the last month to work towards solving this, no matter what I did it wasn't enough. and the lies kept coming.


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## naiveonedave

you need to see a lawyer, like yesterday. You can take 50% of any of your assets and prevent her from taking them

most judges in the US don't appreciate the spouse using the police to intervene with no real cause. If your son was safe with you, a good attorney for you will use this against your spouse effectively.


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## Fishnbuddy

I was married for 25 years I just got my divorce . You have to except that she wants to leave after about one year she will see what she is really missing and what she has really done. Leave her alone move on and except what she is doing.she is lying to you and that is not a septa bull in a marriage that's all you need to know


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Where is she staying? 

They won't get on her for using the police, she would have set something up with the station to be there. They are often called to monitor move outs to make sure it goes smoothly and would rather be there when they don't have to be than not be there when they do. 

This is absolutely the end of the road. This isn't wanting space. You have to see a lawyer and get your bases covered. 

Ontario typically does 50/50 custody so you'll have your son 50% of the time and have 50% say in medical and schooling choices. 
Keep in mind 50/50 doesn't mean no child support. Whichever made more will still be ordered to pay support to the other.


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## Satya

Well, I'm sorry, but I really think she's been cheating. And you thought that non-interference would make things better. It rarely does, it just let's her get away with whatever she wants, which I'm very sorry to say, isn't you.

Don't change the locks but do take pictures of EVERYTHING in the house. Get a journal and from the MOMENT the relationship went downhill (7 years back) write down EVERY suspicious thing you can think of or remember. Every time she had a "play date" she'd take your son to. Every time she'd go get a wax that wasn't for you. Just write it down and keep the journal safe.

Go get a lawyer pronto and go sort out your own bank account.

Sorry, but you're now at war. Don't paint a bullseye on your back.


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## Sad Man

she wouldn't tell me, I can only assume it was her mothers house, who has always hated me, right from when we started dating at age 20 ish.

Sometimes no matter how hard I try I just cant get beyond the outside influences.

I don't know if the reason the police came might be because I'm a registered firearm owner here in Canada, I am a fully licenced target shooter here which comes with a good deal of paper work.

but I assure everyone that there was never any notion of violence by myself ever! My guns are locked away in safes and properly stored. I have never even shown my son any of them.


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## Sad Man

Satya said:


> Well, I'm sorry, but I really think she's been cheating. And you thought that non-interference would make things better. It rarely does, it just let's her get away with whatever she wants, which I'm very sorry to say, isn't you.
> 
> Don't change the locks but do take pictures of EVERYTHING in the house. Get a journal and from the MOMENT the relationship went downhill (7 years back) write down EVERY suspicious thing you can think of or remember. Every time she had a "play date" she'd take your son to. Every time she'd go get a wax that wasn't for you. Just write it down and keep the journal safe.
> 
> Go get a lawyer pronto and go sort out your own bank account.
> 
> Sorry, but you're now at war. Don't paint a bullseye on your back.



that's hard hitting.

the wax thing is difficult because she hid it from me. Sex became non existent over the last 2 months, which has been hard on me as Ive always been pretty frisky no matter what.

I will take pictures yes and seek family law protections at the courthouse this morning.

Only problem right now is she has electronic access to our banking which means she could have easily done everything without me knowing it. I have a Drs appointment at 9:15 which means I will be slower out of the gate this morning than she will. I assume shes dropping him off at school as I type this, which is killing me.

I want to see my boy!!

the school bus is in front of my house now. and all I can do is cry.


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## oldshirt

assuming you are telling the truth that you are not a drunk/druggie, not violent and are involved in your home life and in raising your child, then it is 99.999% certainty that there is another man involved and perhaps has been for quite some time. 

People don't wake up on Saturday morning and realize they don't love their spouse and then hide their child somewhere and bring the cops to the house to move their stuff out on Monday. This has been planned and orchestrated for a long time. 

You need realize that she is moving out and that you won't be able to stop her no matter what you say, how much you beg or negotiate or who you talk to to try to convince her to stay. 

So your number one priority at this point is to get a lawyer yesterday and start circling your wagons and protect your assets and property and your relationship with your son. 

She has several months to a year's head start on you so you need to focus solely on getting a lawyer and start getting your legal affairs in order.


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## SunCMars

Sad Man said:


> she wouldn't tell me, I can only assume it was her mothers house, who has always hated me, right from when we started dating at age 20 ish.
> 
> Sometimes no matter how hard I try I just cant get beyond the outside influences.
> 
> I don't know if the reason the police came might be because *I'm a registered firearm owner here in Canada, I am a fully licensed target shooter *here which comes with a good deal of paper work.
> 
> but I assure everyone that there was never any notion of violence by myself ever! My guns are locked away in safes and properly stored. I have never even shown my son any of them.


Good man.
@Hope1964, another TAM Ontario Canuck, may need your help someday. Being, that I am too far away from her to save her when the world ends.
She loves gun owners.

I am a licensed concealed carry permit holder., on the other side of the shallowest Great Lake to your South.
...........................................................................................

Humor aside, your wife should have done what decent people do. Open up, express her true feelings and her future intentions. She should have told you that [in her opinion] the marriage was failing. *Not left you in *limbo.*
And that she wanted out. No games.

*Financial limbo, emotional limbo. 
Her obvious planning should have been done constructively, caring that you, her, your son would divorce amicably. {As possible!}

All those years together and this is what she dumps in your lap? 

Sorry, this shows a lack of character. No, she is a caricature....of a selfish fish wife. Life revolves around her. And only her.


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## Openminded

Yes, the signs point to another man. If she has someone else, she's deep in the fog and probably unwilling to listen to anything you have to say. However, she may discover the grass isn't greener and at some point return. Do you want her back regardless of what she's done (some would and some wouldn't)?

I know this is a shock but you have to focus. Make a list of things that have to be done today and do them.


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## TAM2013

Time to toughen up, buddy. She's become discontent with her lot. Probably the younger single mothers didn't help. They can be toxic. She's looking to re-live her youth 
and you're not invited. Disgusting that she'd bring the cops round. She's the one who's straying, Why the fvck does she get to run off with the kid. Not the kids best 
interests at heart at all. She's removed him from the family home for her own selfish ends.

I agree you need legal advice quickly but don't change the locks. That's a barrier to your child as well as her. You are going to have to bite your lip as she could turn nasty 
and make access difficult for you. Play this cuter than a cage full of monkeys. Get the kids certificate of birth and passport if you can.

You've also got to decide if you'd ever see a way back. Cheating or not, I wouldn't. She's gone. Let her frivolous Facebooking idealistic new life bite her in the butt down 
the road when her idiocy and selfishness dawn on her.


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## Satya

Sad Man said:


> that's hard hitting.
> 
> the wax thing is difficult because she hid it from me. Sex became non existent over the last 2 months, which has been hard on me as Ive always been pretty frisky no matter what.
> 
> I will take pictures yes and seek family law protections at the courthouse this morning.
> 
> Only problem right now is she has electronic access to our banking which means she could have easily done everything without me knowing it. I have a Drs appointment at 9:15 which means I will be slower out of the gate this morning than she will. I assume shes dropping him off at school as I type this, which is killing me.
> 
> I want to see my boy!!
> 
> the school bus is in front of my house now. and all I can do is cry.


One place knows about what she's done. The bank. They have audit logs and can see who went into the account and when.

If your name is on the account you have a right to know and can ask them to find out.


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## uhtred

I think the first step is to contact a lawyer to understand the laws in your jurisdiction. That will let you know if any of this information has any legal value.


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## C3156

Wow, she has gone full nuclear on you, sorry that things came out this way. I know that you have just had a bomb dropped in your lap, but there are some things you need to be doing today to try and prevent further issues:

-* See an attorney to go for an emergency order for exclusive use of the marital residence and the return of your child to the marital home*.
- See about opening a new bank account in your name and moving 50% of any monies you have.
- Change your direct deposit (if you use it) to the new account.
- Find a storage location for your firearms and move them from the home.

- Not the least of things, get a Voice Activated Recorder and have it on anytime you are around you wife. The idea here is not so much to gather evidence against her but to prevent a possible false domestic violence call against you when she is around. You need to have something to play to the police to prove what happened if it comes to that point. She has shown that she is willing to play dirty, you need to protect yourself.

This is a tough time and you have been caught flat footed. As much as it hurts, you need to take some action before things to much further. It wouldn't hurt to call a counselor just to have someone to talk to as well. Good luck, keep posting so that we know how you are doing.


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## Young at Heart

Dear Sad Man;

You are probably too emotionally flooded to have a conversation with your wife (Google it).
If you do, you will probably say things you will regret for a long time.

Instead go find a good divorce/custody lawyer and talk to him or her.

DON'T TALK TO YOUR WIFE! What you say will be used against you. 

Your wife has escalated this to the point that you want your attorney to talk to her or her attorney.

Good luck. You will get through this.


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## Satya

I agree. Don't bother talking with her. She doesn't want to talk. She's taking action and you need to respond in kind.


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## 3Xnocharm

I too believe her to be cheating. Dont kid yourself that she never "had time" to cheat... people who want to cheat make sure they make time and have a place. 

She has no right to keep your child away from you and his whereabouts a secret! I cannot believe the police allowed that! Get to attorney NOW and get your son back in your house, she is completely out of line. 

Dont talk to her. Talk only through your attorney.


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## Peter/

If I read this correctly, seven years ago things changed when she got on facebook?

Just after your son was born if he is also 7?

I am new here so can only give very brief personal experience.

Social media has given her a connection to a world outside her own. It has also given her a false sense of freedom.

Yes she has been cheating on you.

Yes there has been more than you will want to know about.

Is this salvageable?

NOPE!

"What do I do now?" I hear you ask, my advice to you is simple.

1) get a lawyer.

2) Sell up, the house the cars everything, sell it for an average price but get it on the market today, you said 60 days until the bank forecloses anyway, get rid of the mill stone round your neck now.

3) don't bother trying to say anything to her, she's off the boil with sex, she is getting it elsewhere along with all the emotional support she thinks she needs, you are a major inconvenience to her new found lease of life.

4) buy/rent a two bedroom apartment that will suit your needs and give you a room for your son to stay, if you have a lot of other stuff then rent a storage unit to put it away in.

5) stay focussed on the above, the faster you heal and get rid of all of your baggage, material and emotional the faster life becomes enjoyable.

Look at it this way, if you try to cling on to the marriage, she will resent you for holding her back, this creates toxicity and breeds animosity between you, not healthy for your son, if you try to keep a light on for her it goes south anyway when the bank throws you out, you will be depressed trying to hold it all together and the added stress from eviction could put you over the edge, she probably will come back, but not because she magically woke up and realized that she misses you and your life together, no sir, it will be because the new man is not Mr. Amazing and the fun ran out like it always does, she will be back merely to enjoy the comfort of being "home" so to speak, what happens then is that it all goes full circle as you would have let her walk straight in and made her more than welcome, she gets bored again and starts to flirt, text and then f### as and when she pleases.

Keep us posted, would like to see you succeed in getting yourself back on track fast and not looking back.


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## MrNightly

Peter/ is spot on.

Stop crying and start acting.

If you post again before you have seen a Lawyer, you are just not getting it.

Also, in the States, she can't just take the kid. That's a criminal charge. She has ZERO right to keep him from you. Call the cops on her immediately on this topic, after talking to your lawyer.

Read Peter/'s post and get to work.

She's a cheater, the sooner you realize that, the sooner you'll move on. 

No SugarCoating it. Life sucks sometimes, but trust me, it will get better!


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## Peter/

MrNightly said:


> Peter/ is spot on.
> 
> Stop crying and start acting.
> 
> If you post again before you have seen a Lawyer, you are just not getting it.
> 
> Also, in the States, she can't just take the kid. That's a criminal charge. She has ZERO right to keep him from you. Call the cops on her immediately on this topic, after talking to your lawyer.
> 
> Read Peter/'s post and get to work.
> 
> She's a cheater, the sooner you realize that, the sooner you'll move on.
> 
> No SugarCoating it. Life sucks sometimes, but trust me, it will get better!


If you look up my own back story, I bailed on her for her inappropriate internet activity after an initial warning 6 months ago when I first saw something I didn't like.

No matter how long your marriage has been, if she cheats, it's over, no ifs, no buts, the trust has gone, why bother spending years of your life trying to rebuild the trust that was shredded into oblivion on a 50/50 gamble that she won't do it again? You can better be financially secure and emotionally stable enough to see whats happening as soon as it happens, I sensed something was off so I went looking, happens that I have a sixth sense on these things as it was the exact same the second time, took me a couple of weeks this last time as I was very busy with a special project that had kept me up very late and out the door very early for the day job, but as soon as I was back in my routine, I could smell it as though I had stepped in dog **** in the park, something was off and I was 100% on the money so to speak, came here after internet search for cheating wives, had a whine, read some threads on what others have suffered and here I am now living in my own place with my dogs and waiting for divorce papers and solicitors to get asses in gear, I will not look back at my marriage with sadness or a sense of loss, she either wasn't who I thought she was or became something that I hadn't realized, either way, she crossed the line without talking to me about any problems, doubts or feelings she was having, we were supposed to be best friends and life long companions, it failed, she fluffed up, I am not a door mat, I have no option but to move on with my life. Do the same, you will look back at this in a years time and thank me for my advice.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

He is in Canada

In my province they won't or can't do anything unless there is a child custody order in place. Until then whoever has the child has custody of the child. I'm pretty sure it's the same in his. 

Once he has a court order, she can get in trouble if she violates it or doesn't let him have his time. Or if she moves beyond a reasonable distance away without the courts permission. Until he has that she is pretty much free to do what she wants. 

He needs to get to court ASAP to get an order in place for his 50% child custody.


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## Sad Man

Hi, thanks for all the advice today.

As expected today was a whirlwind of activity. All of it bad too. My first stop was Drs office where I cried like a damn baby because hearing the school bus in front of my house today was possibly the worst thing I can think of in all of this so far.

After the dr I went to the courthouse to seek advice about "family law" as its called here in Ontario. It was all difficult to follow but I did find out (as someone suggested in a previous comment) that I can get an emergency protection order and get my boy home and back into his life here, with the primary issue being if the other parent may FLEE with the child. However, I still wasn't too concerned at that point. I was almost expecting to see her there doing the same thing but she wasn't. Hmm, I thought she beat me there. Anyway, I will get to see a lawyer tomorrow afternoon. That's the best I can do with little money to spare and the lawyer should advise me best on the emergency court order (emergency??) But again, I thought my boy is reasonably safe... so far.

Next I went to the bank to check on finances. I opened new account and then made my direct deposit paycheck go into the new account which involved several trips back and forth across town because the new account info wont be handled in time for Fridays deposit, so I am going to have to be super vigilant and up all night waiting for that money to go into the old account, so I can transfer safely to mine.

Now why would anyone have to do that?
Because lo and behold, she has drained the joint account down to $31 and has been transferring thousands into her own account. The bank wont give me any real details but I was able to get that much out of the attendant who probably was sick of my crying by then.

So she bled off cash from our account into hers. How much I don't know and probably never will. Again though that bleeding off could be pretty routine with the other bill payments, but how much shes keeping in that account instead of our joint account will never be known by me.

My next stop was his school. I didn't want to see him, let me rephrase that, I'm dying to see him! but I don't want to cause a scene, and I wanted to make sure there wasn't some crazy restraining order on me there or they call cops if they see me etc... imagine my SHOCK when they told me he wasn't there today and his mother had called in saying he was sick. I became pretty concerned and I left there crying like a moron. 

So I went to child services where I wasted a whole lot of time with some woman who couldn't do a damn thing, even after having an hour long meeting with her supervisors well I waited in the waiting room.

so then I went to the Childrens Aid Society. I stressed that my boy has been taken from me and I don't know if hes alive at this point or where or what or anything!! I was getting angry really. After another hour there they couldn't help me because they had no reason to believe he is in actual danger..??? 

So then I went to the police. I told them I wanted someone to do a welfare check of my child. For all I know he could be on his way to Mexico by now, just because she phoned the school doesn't mean a damn thing! The police phoned her and she wouldn't tell them anything because the number shows up as a blocked caller on her phone, so she thinks someone is trying to trick her, they have her phone back, which she does painstakingly slowly.

She claims that she is somewhere safe and my boy is safe with her,, but what the heck!! he was safe here!!!! I'm starting to get a little emotional/ perturbed. She claims shes at the location where she told the police from last night she would be and that's it??? I asked how do you know shes there?? Shes a serial liar, and I cannot believe a word she says. I begged the police to go there and just put eyes on my son, to let me know hes ok.

they refused to do it.??? now I overheard the one officer say the word "Armstrong?" in an inquisitive tone. Armstrong is a small town about 3 hours north of here!!! Could she be there with my boy and that's why they wont check on her? because that's a remote town that maybe has 2 cops if that??? I cant believe it!!

then, she tells the cop shes taking him out of school for "a while"???????? WTF???? Where is he??? what is going on???

so I left there feeling like Ive lost already. I miss my boy more than you can imagine. I don't care about her at this point at all, shes already dead to me. Its my boy I need most of all!!

now, when I got home she texted me out of the blue and said "Alex is with me in a safe place, we aren't fleeing anywhere, we will work all this out when heads are level"

Of course anything I said back went without a reply. Until I said, "What about these bills that are due?" and she answered me asking the amounts and due dates and said she would pay them along with the mortgage.

so now I have no idea where her head is at? She refuses to answer anything else. I asked if she was going to facetime me with my boy or if that was just one more lie she told. That went unanswered as well.

So now my only option is to see the court provided lawyer (yay!) and hope the emergency order to bring him back is a viable option?

also I will go back to the school and investigate this "take him out of school for awhile" comment.

I'm so empty inside. Ive been up since 6 am yesterday and haven't eaten a single bite. I am a shell of a man now thanks to this monster of a woman.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Emergency protection orders are harder to get than a temporary custody order until you can go to court for the more permanent one. I would go for that first. 

You'll get more of having to PROVE she is a danger and a flight risk with the protection order and you just don't have the proof needed. Did she get a passport for him? Does she have ties out of country? Things like that you would need. Get temp custody agreement first

Does she make more or do you?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

And get on a mild anti-anxiety med until you are feeling more in control. You need your skills at your best and something to help you cope could go a long way


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## Sad Man

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Emergency protection orders are harder to get than a temporary custody order until you can go to court for the more permanent one. I would go for that first.
> 
> You'll get more of having to PROVE she is a danger and a flight risk with the protection order and you just don't have the proof needed. Did she get a passport for him? Does she have ties out of country? Things like that you would need. Get temp custody agreement first
> 
> Does she make more or do you?


that's good advice hopefully I can use tomorrow. I think hes too young to need a passport yet at just shy of 7 years of age.
No out of country ties at all, but some in Toronto which is pretty far from my city of the north west.

I will write down temporary custody agreement, thanks so much for that.

and yes, she makes more "taxable" income than me on paper (which I guess means taxable) but she is a hair dresser and I built her a home salon in our basement. She makes lots of cash money down there. I was smart enough this morning to take pictures of all her calendars which show her names and appointments since January in the event of income discussion hopefully that might have some bearing.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

All children from 0 need a passport if they are going to a country that needs a passport. Also I know my brother has to sign a letter letting my sister-in-law take the kids out of country, they are married. 

I think you're safe as far as fleeing the country but do get an order in place because then she has to let you have your son during your times. 
She won't be able to move out of a reasonable distance from you unless she can prove it's in the best interest of your son and she won't have that.

Her making more will benefit you, if you get 50/50 custody she will have to pay child support to you. Though likely not much if your income is similar.


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## Sad Man

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> All children from 0 need a passport if they are going to a country that needs a passport. Also I know my brother has to sign a letter letting my sister-in-law take the kids out of country, they are married.
> 
> I think you're safe as far as fleeing the country but do get an order in place because then she has to let you have your son during your times.
> She won't be able to move out of a reasonable distance from you unless she can prove it's in the best interest of your son and she won't have that.
> 
> Her making more will benefit you, if you get 50/50 custody she will have to pay child support to you. Though likely not much if your income is similar.


thanks so much for help, there is some encouragement, but boy am I destroyed.


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## Peter/

Knew the banking thing was coming, I sensed it within a few minutes of logging off for the night, remembering your story of incidences and subtle changes that say this has been going on a lot longer than you will want to or ever know.

What about the house?

What about my post of directions?

I am trying to help you out but if you dither and deliberate too long you will miss your opportunities and get screwed over even harder.

Your choice kiddo, but remember this, she is not coming home to rebuild your family, she is not interested in you or anything you have to offer, yes you have a child, and yes you have to be serious about what the future holds for him, but if you are going to be trailing all your baggage around with debts and the house, I will probably get to read an obituary of a guy that sounds just like you in the next year.


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## Sad Man

Hi Peter, your post didn't go to waste, Ive read it several dozen times and soaked it all in.

There is a few issues, I know you think shes cheating and I have been carefully watching her and her time for the last month and I just still cant see how its possible. In fact today we shared some texts as I was filling out separation papers at the courthouse I asked her if I should check off "adultery" and it was her last chance to come clean.. she replied, sorry, no.

Now that doesn't mean I believe her because that's what she said, but I just cant see it no matter how hard I look yet.

About the house and selling off everything.. my house was purchased by my Father in an area of town where my family has huge and deep roots here. Our last name goes hand in hand when you mention this part of town. My son would be the third generation to get this house so it has some sentimental value to me,

also, I am a mechanic. I have a huge shop in my back yard I recently built with 2 hoists etc.. its just hard to leave that stuff.

Since all this stuff has come out of the woodwork my father who has been very distant with me has stepped up support for lawyer and house stuff. His wife is pretty well off and they offered their help if I need it. 

If I have to there is a family camp/cabin I can move into that would do if I have to. Its very remote but I would survive.

I will make a new post on todays events outlining whats new. Please don't think I'm neglecting your advise, it is very welcomed.

edit: Peter I get that shes not interested in me. I'm 99% sure I am done with her. Ive lost all feelings Ive had for her, and believe me I loved her more than anyone can imagine. I was so loyal to her and worshipped her as well. I used to be an ass when I was younger but now I'm just too nice I think. I cant imagine even actually being with anyone else at all, and that's still true this moment. The only reason I keep that 1% left open for her is I believe she is sick in some way. I wouldn't turn my back on someone that was sick, so that's why I cant close that door completely. and honestly my family meant everything to me, and I'm having a hard time accepting that its been destroyed.


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## Sad Man

okay, heres todays update.

Today I went to the courthouse as soon as it opened. I began to fill out all the forms. I was there all morning til about noon before I got everything filled out and in order (or so I thought)

While doing that my wife? shared some texts with me, but she still refuses to let me talk to, face time or anything with my son!!! I am livid!! how do I know hes even alive at this point?? I'm supposed to trust this lying b++++ ??? She keeps saying we will face time "soon" and she keeps going on and on about being in a safe place. I told her I am done with her, she is dead to me and the sooner she is out of my life the better. Its all about my son now!

most of those messages fall on deaf ears, and go unanswered. She never answers phone (Ive called only about 7-8 times since this all happened because I don't want to harass) One of our mutual friends is somewhat in contact with her and all I get is that my son is OK.

I finally got to see the duty counsel lawyer at 1:30PM He wasn't much help at all, he looked at all my forms and critiqued them like a school teacher, essentially sending me out to do them over, well 50% of them anyway.

I began making the changes he suggested but ran of time to file anything. I now have a huge stack of forms that honestly don't make much sense to me because I cant understand the process at all. if I understood the process it would be clearer to me what I'm trying to accomplish with each action I take.

The kinda good news is I did find out that theres no motions filed against me either, so I may be ahead of her at this point.

However I'm really not ahead at all. I need a lawyer and that's that. I began calling various ones just before 5 PM and have not really got in contact with any, just left messages etc.

I would have done that sooner had I known I had some financial support behind me. Now I know I do.

so we're back to the first step, lawyer!! (not that many of you didn't already suggest that)

I'm just destroyed and exhausted and I still don't know where my boy is or if hes safe or anything. All I have to confirm that is her texts which don't mean a damn thing. What more can I do? The police wont help, the courts are slow, and today was a gigantic waste.

I don't understand how she can get away with this? If I took him from school and kept him in hiding you can bet your behind there would be an amber alert and swat teams involved, mostly because I'm a gun owner.

Somebody please help me, I'm dying and Peter called it already. I'm running out of steam after 3 days of hell and almost no sleep to speak of. Its pure adrenalin and its running out before I get to see my boy.


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## sokillme

Fight for you kid man. Fight as his father, the time to be a husband is over. Get a good lawyer and start to fight. If you kid was in a burning building you would run in there and save him right, if he was drowning you would do the same. This is where you are at. GET YOUR MIND OFF YOUR WIFE AND YOUR MARRIAGE, and put it on your son.


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## Sad Man

Thanks for pep talk!

Youre right, I will fight and fight and fight. I never give up on things. I know how to think about giving up but I don't actually know how to give up.

I would do anything for him. I'm just down because it seems like hes gone! I'm making a subconscious connection between her and him and since shes gone to me, its infecting my thoughts that he is too.

I need to get my second wind. Hopefully a lawyer can pick up the torch tomorrow and make something good happen.


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## sokillme

I don't know where you are, but she is not going to be able to keep your son away from you, only you can do that. Get strong now, be his father.


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## Sad Man

thanks again so much. Its giving me some strength back.

She cannot keep him away from me.

Today is my birthday. I am 47 years old. Youd think shed at least let him phone me and say happy birthday daddy. He would love to do it but shes keeping that from happening.


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## Affaircare

This link talks about custody in Canada--maybe not your province, but hopefully it will give you some general clarity: https://www.educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/child-custody-and-visting-rights-during-breakup 

In order, I would strongly recommend:
1) Get a lawyer
2) Ask the judge for an urgent custody decision

The longer your child is kept away from you, the harder it will be for her to get custody. In fact, when you get custody the judge may well order supervised visitation for her because she pulled this stunt! Ask for it. 

The thing is, she may be as angry with you as she likes. She may leave you all she likes. But as your child's EQUAL PARENT you have just as much right to keep your child and raise him as she does. She took custody without your consent. Now she is actively interfering in your right to see your child when you want to. So she is setting a precedent and the judge will not look on this well...unless she had evidence for a court of law that there was physical abuse.


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## Sad Man

absolutely no abuse. she will of course claim I mentally abused her or some other garbage like that but I have never ever even thought about hitting her, threatening her, touching her in anger, etc. 

I agree this has to be helping my case, as bad as its hurting me.

I just cant stop thinking that this is only being allowed to happen because I'm a legal gun owner and own handguns, which is a bit of a bigger issue in Canada. As a result of that licence I am subject to strict criminal background checks, and ran daily through an automatic check through CPIC, which is like the FBI database I guess.

I'm perfectly legal but I'm thinking the police allowed this to continue just for that reason. There is no way this should be happening.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Affaircare is right but it hasn't been enough time yet to prove she is withholding parenting time. 

Op - keep all texts regarding you asking to see your son and her refusals. 

In fact, ask to have your son for the weekend. Friday - Sunday. 

She will refuse and you can use that in court. 

On Monday ask for days to see your son. 
She'll refuse. 

You'll need to show her active refusals to your reasonable requests for time with him. 

Just telling her to bring him home isn't going to help you. 

Make reasonable requests. Ask for 50% parenting time. Have her refuse you that in text and save them all.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Police just can't do anything without a court order stating custody. Btdt 

My sons dad tried to kidnap him. The police could do nothing because I had no court order so legally whoever has him has custody and they won't get involved. If you took him it would be the same. 
Getting the temp child custody irdrr is #1 right now. Get your 50% on paper and she has to follow through with it or the police will be involved.


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## sokillme

Go RIGHT NOW and look up some sites for father's parental rights in Canada. There is probably one on Reddit. Find a message board and start posting. They are going to know a lot more then we do. This is war now, she can't keep you from your son. If you get scared or down come back on here and we will whip you into shape.


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## Steelcurtaindad

Sad Man, this my first post on TAM. I read threads on here occasionally since my x wife's affairs and my recent divorce, and reading your thread I felt like I had to sign up and respond to you. Here is what you need to do immediately:

Do not pass go, do not collect $200, do not do anything else until you have retained an attorney and done the following:

-File an order to show cause (may be called something different in Canada, your attorney will know, I'm in the US)for the return of you son to the marital home immediately. That is your Son's home, and where he goes to school.
-File for exclusive use of the marital home, if you get this you will then be able to change the locks.
-file for divorce (yes, do this at the same time so that you can get a temporary custody order.)

The longer you wait to file, the longer the court will view this as you accepting your wife taking your son to parts unknown. She is establishing a status quo, if you do nothing the court will view it as you were ok with it.

I give you this advice because I have been through a similar ordeal. My x wife ran off to her affair partner unannounced while I was out of town on Business, and took our young daughter with her. She didn't just leave the town, she left the country with our daughter, and flew to Europe where The POSOM lived. I found out what happened on a Thursday, met with an attorney on Friday, and took the above mentioned legal steps when court opened on Monday morning. Because we didn't know where my then Stbxw was staying, the court gave us permission to serve her via email on the order to show cause. We filed under my states custody laws and The Hague convention for international child abduction. The judge granted our order, and she was served to return our daughter back to the US immediately. While she drug that out for a couple weeks, she was eventually forced to return our daughter back to me at the marital home.

I know it may seem like a lot to also file for divorce, but do it, your marriage is over. She has already taken the nuclear option on you and has moved on. I her eyes the marriage is already over. She has revealed herself in her actions.

I'm not saying your wife is planning to flee the country like mine, but you need to not believe anything she tells you right now. I am also a legal gun owner and my x pulled the same bs via email saying she didn't feel "safe" and had to take our daughter to someplace "safe before she could contact me. Despite the fact that I had never raise a finger at her, and had never been abusive in any way. It's a BS excuse, and that's all. It doesn't matter that you legally own firearms, that doesn't change anything.

I will also agree that your wife is having an affair. I know it's difficult to hear and you c ant imagine in (I've been there to), but from your first post, she has exhibited some pretty telltale behavior. Read up on other threads in the Coping with infidelity section and learn from them.

If you want to secure the best possible outcome for your relationship and custody rights to your son, please take my advice. As I type this my daughter is snuggled up next to me on the sofa watching cartoons, and I now have sole physical custody.


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## Lostinthought61

get a female lawyer if possible...some one who sees through your wife's crap and also have press for visitation rights immediately.


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## Sad Man

Thanks again for everyone's advice and recommendations. 

I assure you all tomorrow is lawyer day. To my absolute best ability I will have something in motion tomorrow.

Steelcurtaindad, thanks so much for signing up to offer me your help. As well that goes for everybody else too.


Tonight's update is I went looking for her/him. I'm not really looking for her, its just that wherever she is, he will be. I went to all the parks outside our neighbourhood that he sometimes goes to with the other single mothers, I went to multiple friends houses (just a drive by) and her mothers house as well. There is no sign of her anywhere! The truck she is driving is registered to both of us so I am a legal owner of it, I'm tempted to try and report it stolen, but in the end what does that get me? Perhaps a window to find my son, but that's about it. I went with a friend in his wifes car which is totally inconspicuous because I own a big jacked up diesel 4x4 that's bright red and cant be missed so its not much for being sneaky.

I have texted her multiple times tonight asking to please let me speak to my son on my birthday. I have now asked her for him to spend time with me this weekend, and if that wasn't possible next week. I reminded her that I am available any time to be his father and I have a 50/50 right to be his parent. 

I have phoned and only got voice mail. I left messages saying in an overly polite voice... Hello, this is Alex's Father. I would like to speak with him as soon as possible. Thank you. Nothing mean, nasty or snotty. I think Ive left three messages today now.

and I get zero response. 

Ive texted her saying that I'm not interested in where she is and she has nothing to fear from me at all, I just want to see my son. All stuff along those lines.

and theres no reply at all. 

I don't know how I'm not gone completely nuts yet!!!


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## 3Xnocharm

Wow, I am so sorry... she has NO RIGHT whatsoever to do what she is doing... assuming there was no abuse, of course. (I dont get that vibe from your posts, tho)


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## Sad Man

There was no abuse whatsoever. I have never lifted a finger or been any way threatening. I am a big guy and she once said I'm a bully in my stature.. wtf does that mean? I think she meant my physical appearance can appear to be threatening, but talk about judging a book by its cover!! I once rescued a bumble bee that was drowning in the lake and I carried him to shore and let him dry out on a picnic table and watched him fly away. I did that in front of my boy so he wouldn't be scared of bees and that its good to try and help out every living creature when you can. Also that a bee can be in your hand and not sting you.

I'm just not a violent guy, although Ive been in plenty of hockey fights in my younger (up til 21 ish) years but??? I mean that's really reaching to consider me violent Id say.

Another thought that came to mind was many years ago, like 15 or more her brother was going through a very nasty divorce situation with an insane woman, not that he is much better, but I remember us all discussing at a family function how it would have been easier on him if he had just shot her and lived with the consequences of his actions.

again, this was light hearted conversation that we joked about, nobody was thinking this was a serious thing... but my wife has a tendency to drag up little tidbits from the long forgotten past, so who knows??

In hindsight I feel terrible that we all made light hearted humour out of but really it was nothing. Like saying my foot is killing me.. its not really killing you. 

I cant imagine anything that she could be using to say I'm violent or a threat to her.

Ill make another new post now with a new update on my situation.


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## Sad Man

Okay, new update:

More info tonight. When my wife came here with the police she had with her one of her friends/clients that she cuts her hair. I never liked this woman because my wife had told me before how horrible she was and how she left her husband.

I remember now, because its the exact same crap that my wife is doing!! This woman is coaching her 100%

now it took a real brain strain but I finally remembered her name. Its a miracle I was able to do that. So, I had my mother go on her facebook page (I'm not a face book user) and sure enough she found a picture of my son and another girl that comes here by the name of *****. 

***** is an odd name for a girl, but then I made the connection that *****'s father was married to the woman that was with my wife.

So, if I could contact *****'s father, I could probably get info on this woman whom I suspect is coaching my wife. I had my mother send him a message with my info and asked that he could call me. He quickly did. I was so happy.

He was horrified to find out what I was going through but it was the exact same thing he did. He said without a doubt this woman was "harbouring" my wife and kid and without a doubt coaching her on what to do.

The good news is he gave me exact info on where she lives, and that she has two houses and more than likely my son was at one or the other.

So now I have a location on where he may be.

but the question is, what do I do? I'm still going to get lawyer in the AM as soon as I can, but I want my son back so bad I'm thinking of things that I should do, and things I shouldn't do.

What do I do????

next, I was getting a bank deposit today of my paycheck. I changed the direct deposit info to my new account but it wasn't going to take effect in time for tonights deposit. It was imperative that I get to it before she did. If she wants that money to pay stuff for the house shes going to have to ask for it. Its no longer hers for the taking. so that's a good success story for now.

but I cant sleep. I still don't have my boy, and I'm trying to keep calm for now.


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## sputniksweettart

I recently left our home and missed both my wife and kids so bad it felt like I was dying. The air, the light, the sounds of outside of the new place—it was actually a pretty nice spot—but I decided the first second I was there I had arrived in literal Hell. Like oh wow I guess I died instantly on the road or something and now I am occupying Hell. 

It was, though, a gift to be an hour from my family because I was not in any way rational in those first few days. I didn't sleep. I didn't eat. Nothing was entertaining or interesting. It was just a bunch of staring and feeling the tension accumulate more and more among my body.

It's so difficult to even pretend to have the right to suggest things to someone in instances like this, but there is profound strength in realizing when you're too drunk to drive. Most people ignore the oscillating earth beneath their feet and commit to action anyway. This leads to mayhem and loss. 

Emotions are alive in you right now. You feel them exploding in your elbows and fingertips. If you can bridle yourself for the time being, like the drunk person who hands over his keys, then you seem to otherwise be making good decisions to go about appropriately rectifying these wrongs.


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## Affaircare

@Sad Man, 

I'm going to say something to you that you are not going to like, so please sit down. 

If you go to the two houses, looking for your son, then you are going to look like a stalker and she'll be able to point at this action and say "See your honor? That's why I didn't feel safe. Look how he tracked me down and stalked me." 

*You have got to stop and wait for the court.* It is very likely going to be Monday before there's any court order becasue tomorrow you get a lawyer and ask for an emergency custody hearing--they aren't going to do it same day. I know it hurts and you feel desperate, but right now all -- and I mean ALL -- the evidence is on your side. She took your son without your consent, kept him from communicating with you, and literally HID HIM from a parent who has equal rights. Based on how it is right now, you are HELPING your case and will likely get temporary custody. 

On the other hand, if you go charging over there "to find him" you will destroy all the evidence on your side, and you may well give her the proof she needs to tell the court why she didn't feel safe. Based on the possiblity that you're a stalking hot-head, you will be HARMING your case and she will likely get temporary custody. 

So you decide: 
a) even though it hurts you FOR THE WEEKEND, keep your cool, don't go over there, keep requesting visitation and demonstrating that she is shutting you out (which is evidence AGAINST HER)...and win the temporary custody battle and get the court to help you enforce your rights to see your son on Monday
=OR= 
b) soothe your hurt for the weekend, be all desperate and lose your cool, go charging over there making threats, give her the evidence she needs to show she's not "safe" (which is evidence AGAINST YOU)...and lose the temporary custody battle on Monday and get the courts to help her protect your son against you.


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## Sad Man

thanks affaircare.

I'm not easily blinded by emotion and wont be stupid although I so desperately want my boy,.

I want to do the right things but its oh so challenging I would be happy to see my boy from a distance and know hes alive and well.

but if I see him how hard will it be not to take him?

I cant sleep I'm in so much pain


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## Satya

Don't get mad at her, don't blow up her phone. That's all evidence she can use against you. Stay calm and take action quietly.


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## Sad Man

I have been kinda blowing up her phone with texts and several phone messages, all done nicely, requesting access to my son, questioning his condition, environment, when he will be returning to school etc..

one of the bad things is, the woman that is harbouring her is a real dope addict, and her young adult children that live with her are also dope addicts.

the father of those kids described them all as "severs chronics" and I know he himself smokes the odd bit of marijuana.

I don't want my son in this environment!!!

I will stop texting her now. but that was my only hope to hear something from my son.

she finally replied just now, over 16 hours since her last reply that said "we will face time soon" which is what she said when the police were here with her over 72 hours ago. I keep asking when exactly "soon" is because its never happened yet.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Do not go there

Court is unlikely to consider her friend smoking pot as a ding against her. 

You have to look like the more stable one so emotions off and let your lawyer deal with it. 

Call https://www.dadscanada.com

For tips on a good lawyer to choose


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## Sad Man

I texted her 10 more times asking for specific conditions and what criteria must be met before I can see, meet, visit, return to school etc.

I gave her 10 numbered questions that were specific in nature and can only be answered specifically. They all pertained to the safety of my son and when where etc I could get access to him.

I can hear the church bells in the distance chiming for 9 am, time to get on the phone I need a lawyer NOW!


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## 3Xnocharm

Sad Man said:


> I texted her 10 more times asking for specific conditions and what criteria must be met before I can see, meet, visit, return to school etc.
> 
> I gave her 10 numbered questions that were specific in nature and can only be answered specifically. They all pertained to the safety of my son and when where etc I could get access to him.
> 
> I can hear the church bells in the distance chiming for 9 am, time to get on the phone I need a lawyer NOW!


Now dont contact her again. And I agree with Affaircare, just SIT TIGHT on the information you were given, you could easily blow this. Hopefully the husband you got the info from doesnt say anything to anyone about your contact.


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## C3156

3Xnocharm said:


> Now dont contact her again. And I agree with Affaircare, just SIT TIGHT on the information you were given, you could easily blow this. Hopefully the husband you got the info from doesnt say anything to anyone about your contact.


x2 You have done your due diligence to establish contact with your wife and son. Document your attempts in a journal and save any texts/emails. Your continued attempts will start to look like harassment and/or stalking, and that is a BAD thing for you. 

I get that you want to see your son, we all want to be with our kids. But you have to play the long game in order to come out on top. The courts can take some time, you need to build your case (and evidence) to establish that you are a good parent and that you son should be living in the home he grew up in. 

It is tearing you up, I know. Find your attorney, start working on a game plan, and file the preliminary motions to get your son back. Control your urge to blowup your wife's phone for the time being or to go out in search of her. You have heard the saying, "Any job worth doing, is worth doing right the first time" Take the necessary steps to do things right. Get the courts on your side and get the backing you need to take care of this situation. Think about how you want this all to look in the end (what is your goal with custody, material things, ect) and then develop a plan to get you there. 

You can do this. Think of the end goal of getting your son back and use that energy constructively to get what you want.


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## hope4family

Sad Man said:


> thanks affaircare.
> 
> I'm not easily blinded by emotion and wont be stupid although I so desperately want my boy,.
> 
> I want to do the right things but its oh so challenging I would be happy to see my boy from a distance and know hes alive and well.
> 
> but if I see him how hard will it be not to take him?
> 
> I cant sleep I'm in so much pain


My ex took my son once. Didn't tell me where / what she was doing. Even called the police on me. 

I went through the legal system. God was with me, and she did bring him back a day later. 

I contacted and hounded my lawyer, and while I didn't threaten my ex personally I vowed to myself to take every legal avenue possible and appeal to all and anyone who would hear my case. Local police, my lawyer, and a judge.

But part of being the real parent in this moment, is keeping your cool. Which also means rest. But when it comes time to talk to the lawyers, and judges, by all means, break down and show them the pain and suffering this person is causing you and your family for what appears to be no real reasoning. 

If my ex refused to tell me where my son was, I would have no other choice but tell her I will have to file a motion of contempt of court and get her summoned and answer to a judge.


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## lifeistooshort

In the future, never, EVER, joke about how someone's wife should be shot.

That doesn't cast you in a good light. At worst you're abusive and at best you're a bully.....based on a statement like that.


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## Sad Man

New update.

Its almost impossible to get a lawyer, many of them are booked up and not taking new clients. However I have an appointment with a highly recommended by a friend who also practices law, on Monday at 1:00

that's crazy!

I did reach another high priced firm here in town and spent 1.3 hours on the phone with her going over everything.

$282 for that consultation, and $2500 retainer.

the good news about that is my wife cant afford this either, at least I've got access to some funding and support.

I discussed everything with her including the 15 year old jokes about my wifes brother shooting or killing his wife to make his life better, and she didn't think it was a big deal, but appreciated all the soul searching I had done to come up with anything bad about me.

They will be sending me an information package with a list of requirements they need from me like tax returns, statements etc. so then I have to show up with that stuff and a pile of cash and they get started. At best that will happen Monday.

In the meantime I suffer. I will also stop texting my wife. I have done all I can do with that avenue and left it with the ball in her court. If she fails to answer those questions or even not attempt to answer them it only helps me.

I have to remain calm. I don't know how I can. One of my friends recently told me (before all this happened) that I have the patience of a clam. Well if hes right, I don't know what kinda clam hes talking about because I am revved up and ready for battle.

but this isn't a battle I know how to fight. which just makes me feel helpless.


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## Sad Man

lifeistooshort said:


> In the future, never, EVER, joke about how someone's wife should be shot.
> 
> That doesn't cast you in a good light. At worst you're abusive and at best you're a bully.....based on a statement like that.


yes, I know, funny how little innocent things like that come back to bite you sometimes.

she may be using that as an excuse to keep hidden away from me.

Lawyer said she can force sale of the house, but neither one of us can get sole possession of it. I would have the option to buy her out.

She could come live here, I cant keep her from here, but she cant keep me from here either.

Id be happy with that and at least I would get to see my son. edit: which is silly because why didn't she do this in the first place?? We could have done it peacefully with no lawyers??

unbelievable!


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Sad Man said:


> yes, I know, funny how little innocent things like that come back to bite you sometimes.
> 
> she may be using that as an excuse to keep hidden away from me.
> 
> Lawyer said she can force sale of the house, but neither one of us can get sole possession of it. I would have the option to buy her out.
> 
> She could come live here, I cant keep her from here, but she cant keep me from here either.
> 
> Id be happy with that and at least I would get to see my son. edit: which is silly because why didn't she do this in the first place?? We could have done it peacefully with no lawyers??
> 
> unbelievable!


What does the lawyer say about her keeping you from your children?


----------



## Rubix Cubed

If you cut off all comms with her you will more than likely have her contacting you in no time, she will then use your son to keep you on the hook. She knows she has you on the hook now so contact isn't necessary. Stop contact and get her questoning things, make her doubt her decisions. 

As far as the gun owner worry. Look at it like this, the cops know you've been checked out in detail just to be permitted, so I think you're stressing over nothing and may find that the clean records and background checks may work to your advantage as it shows you are an upstanding citizen.


----------



## Magnesium

Go dead quiet and she will start to wonder what you're up to. You'll hear from her soon enough, but do NOT respond. Just plan and organize yourself for when your son is back home. Round up all the help you can find in case you'll need it: child care, financial support, people who can provide information or statements in your favor to the court if that ever becomes necessary, etc. 

Also, as hard as it is to do right now, you NEED to take good physical care of yourself. Eating and sleeping are essential to maintaining your sanity and protecting against doing anything stupid that you may regret later. Take a non-addictive sleep aid if you must, but please let your mind and body rest and make sure you're giving yourself enough nutritive fuel to keep going. 

I am so sorry you're going through this is. My heart breaks for you and I'll be praying for you.


----------



## EleGirl

You need to get a lawyer ASAP, like yesterday, and get an emergency court hearing to get at least 50% time with your son. What a crock that she used the police to get your son. If there is no history of abuse, that's ridiculous that the police even went along with this.


----------



## Sad Man

Ive got a huge new update.. Ive been going strong again all day. I thought today would be easy and I just had to get a lawyer.

and I did, as I said earlier.. However, after the lawyer who did my "intake" and then brought the case to the partners in the firm, they all went over it and the senior partner panicked!

around 4 PM the lawyer I was dealing with phoned me. We need action IMMEDIATELY, but its not because of my son so much as that its important to get case rolling.

I just realized that maybe I shouldn't be discussing the details because you never know who may be watching?

anyway, I'm being set up. She has gone nuclear.

now all that skips ahead and we have to go back before that part and tell you that I went to the police station again today, begging for them to perform a welfare check on my son. Its been 72 hours, at what point do we put out an amber alert? The officer at the desk was certainly concerned and jumped right to it. He tried to contact her with no answer. He then made some other calls, which I thought was odd, then I heard him ask "is there any other family member I can call"? That was strange. Then he disappeared into the back where the watch commanders office his. When he came out everything had changed. He was gung ho for welfare check but now that wasn't happening. Why?

He began to tell me how he knows that they are both safe and well. How??? because "lets just say I talked to someone who knows that they are safe" ???

I'm sick of words!! I want eyes on my son!

He said if you haven't heard from them by Monday, to come back??

and left me on my own. Hmm, whose word would they just take at face value to make that conclusion?? My first thought is she has a cop for a new boyfriend. That upset me a lot.

but then, no, that didn't sit well with me while I drove home. When I got home, my mother who has been holding down the fort now for 3 days when I'm not here was furious. So she went there. She did the same things I did but finally the officer in charge came out to speak with her because I guess she wasn't going away as easily as I did.

this officer probably accidently let it slip that they know my son and ex are "in an institution"!!!

That's right, she has gone into a shelter program to "keep her safe"!!

Safe from what? We've been over that.

Well, heres the thing. If she can prove shes under a physical threat she will get the house and full custody of my son. They are trying to antagonize me by promising me to see my son, and then not allowing it. They are trying to provoke me into getting angry, and or threatening or something.

they are building a case against me, and or trying to get me on a weapons charge or something (gun laws in Canada are crazy strict and its almost impossible not to break a law if you look hard enough) or maybe trying to get some threats or whatever. The really are pushing me to get me up on a criminal charge, even if its bogus just to run to a judge and have me under a criminal charge and then take my son and house away from me!!

The guns!! Its the guns that are the major problem. They will look for an unsafe storage charge etc.. anything to try and get me and they will use her claim to do it! Anything they can do to get me to look bad will be done and is being done. This "safe house" outfit has huge donations etc.. they have the resources to work hard to get me. They may even have a private investigator on me!!

Now my junior lawyer, whos a female and really sinking her teeth into this is also a gun owner as well as the senior partner himself. This is great because they understand the laws and the persecution legal gun owners often face. He advised me to get them out now!

The pistols are under pretty strict laws regarding transportation and registration etc... so I went to the local gun place and they agreed to take them, register them, and store them at $25/month. This might take a very long time and these guns are nothing special that cannot be replaced. I sold them to him. They are now legally someone elses and no longer in my possession. I have the paper work and receipts in my gun safe now so if the police come digging, that's what they will find.

also my hunting rifles and shotguns which aren't as strictly legislated have been "sold" to a friend who will sell them back to me when this is over.

but I have a very strange feeling I am about to be arrested. They may try some harassment issues, or whatever, even a bogus charge without merit, anything to burden me with a criminal charge while the family law stuff proceeds. I am being BAITED!

I have removed any possible thing that could even be twisted into some BS claim from my house. There is no danger here and I am not a dangerous person! 

Now, when my mother was at the police station, she overhead the desk officer calling "Karen" and claiming that the mother was there in the station etc and asking to call someone. Why are the police calling Karen, which is the psycho woman that came to my house with my wife to grab her belongings that fateful night??

How deep is this B**** into my affairs??

I have a mountain of homework to do to get done so legal proceedings can begin immediately Monday. My junior lawyer whom I'm really liking so far has made herself available to me all weekend and I have my homework to get done now. They think they can make things work in my favour but it must be urgently done.

and they bumped up the retainer to $3500, and said it could quickly raise to $5K. I'm not sure how much more I can make appear above that number though.

but damn I have a funny feeling in my gut that I'm going to get arrested for nothing but her BS words!! then that will kill my chances of custody or keeping my house.


----------



## Sad Man

more answers to questions above...

what does lawyer say about keeping me from my son? well they know its wrong but they know the angle shes playing, especially since this safe house type institution has been involved. They are aware of their games.

the good news is that if they really are there I know he is safe and in a decent place with probably all sorts of good resources available to him. It makes me feel a little better that he is in a decent place as opposed to some pot head dumbo broad's house. Of course Id rather he was here where he really is safe, but that's probably the next best thing.

I have cut off all comms with her. In fact I'm now questioning if it was really even her that I was talking to? Why would this outfit not allow me to even make contact with my son? I don't know, probably a strict policy of some sort? My "wife" had told my sister yesterday that my boy would make a video and send it to me, guess what? That never happened either! They are trying to bait anyone they can into making my sons life look in danger.

this is a serious witch hunt here!!

emergency court hearing, well, they just don't do that here for some reason, the only way they do that is if shes a flight risk to another country or something really bad. If they know my son is actually in a safe place (which they (police) have been keeping from me theres no way an emergency hearing will begin.

It could be weeks before I see my son again!! I'm so sad! I just love him with all my being.

taking good physical care... I'm having a hard time. I just ate a mcdonalds burger while I typed this and that's all I ate all day. Ive got extra pounds on me so maybe Ive got some gas in the tank I can burn off?

also something my lawyer said is they will dig up every single bit of dirt they can on me in order to make me look bad. They will claim that I watch Scarface too much, or that I have a baseball bat in my closet, or anything they can. every little issue no matter how small or insignificant will be used against me as best as they can. The way to do that is to act fast!

I'm not super religious but I am a Catholic, so I will take all the prayers I can get. Thank you very much for them.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Ok.. so in all this craziness, I just keep needing to know WHY... WHY is she doing this, what is her motive? What was going on between you before all of this. This is NOT NORMAL... normal women in normal circumstances dont do this kind of crap just to get a divorce. So... WHY?


----------



## Tatsuhiko

3Xnocharm said:


> Ok.. so in all this craziness, I just keep needing to know WHY... WHY is she doing this, what is her motive? What was going on between you before all of this. This is NOT NORMAL... normal women in normal circumstances dont do this kind of crap just to get a divorce. So... WHY?


She wants full custody of the child, and might want to move the boyfriend into the family home so they can all play happy family together without interference from the actual _owner_ of the home. That's the "mouse" she's looking to get rid of.


----------



## oldshirt

This is pretty unusual behavior and a lot of work and a whole lot of planning and execution. Shelters are often very full and it can take quite a bit of effort and coordination from social services and other professional service agencies to get into one. 

Either your STBX is one evil, calculating beeeotch that will spare no expense and know no limit to hurt you; or she has valid reason to fear you and your reaction and feels that all this work and effort to utilize law enforcement and social services to protect her and your child from you is justified. 

In order for us to help you, we have to be informed of the realities of the situation and get a glimpse of the bigger picture. 

Is there more to this story that you haven't told us yet?


----------



## sokillme

Call you local paper or news station. Talk to the media.


----------



## Sad Man

I cant be more honest with you about the no abuse/violence thing.

I can have a booming voice, but I don't think we've ever had a screaming fight or anything like that in all our years. I have yelled at my son with my voice to get his attention when he doesn't listen and is going to ride his bike into the street without looking or things like that.

My wife describes me as a great loving father.

Ill tell you whats happening. She wants out. She is scared how I would react. She thinks I wont take it well and I will do something. Those thoughts are based on nothing at all. Yes I am a big guy. Many people say I am intimidating to them, but its based purely on their own thoughts, insecurities perhaps? In my older years now I'm pretty fat, but I'm also very muscular, so combine those two and I am built like a sasquatch in some ways, without the body hair issue anyway. My own cousin told me today that I do come across as intimidating. I asked what he meant, he said I was big and "cunning" I am a deep thinker, and often am in deep though so I may have that perturbed look on my face but... that doesn't mean I am angry! My boy surely knows that I'm not angry as he happily jumps on me and we play "shark" and chase him around the house.

I don't know what to do if people are threatened by my appearance and voice??

back to whats happening.

She wants out, or she thinks she does.. she feels pressured that I was not listening to her telling me she wanted out, but yet she gave me the lies and messages about wanting to work on our problems. We made progress but the outside influences pulled her away. Her mother hates me, always did. She feels torn between her family and me, then throw in some friends at work that tell her shes unhappy all the time, then my stupid phone call telling that broad to mind her own f'in business she made up her mind that she had to get out.

I'm positive there is no other guy. This is a walk away wife. There may be some influence somewhere but I don't think shes cheating, at least not now. The younger single mothers shes hanging around with and their stories I'm sure enticed her some too. She started trying to act younger and be like them and its taken its toll.

Also all the weird diet supplements and vitamins and weird health foods thing, It has effected her mind I do believe. Her weight is unhealthy now and she appears sickly many people say. I also think she is sleep deprived. She doesn't get enough rest and has just been go go go this summer, but I think that may have also been an attempt to hide her smoking from me. Anybody that's been around smokers up in the cold parts of the world know that they will put themselves through a lot just to smoke a cigarette in the middle of winter. I think that became an issue, she was hanging around with other smokers as well, but using my kid as a playmate with other kids to get out away from me.

I have had a rough year with pneumonia from about January to june! this year, who wants to be with some sick person like that for that long? I have put on weight since our marriage, and a fair bit when I quit smoking 17 years ago. 

I work too hard and often play myself right out of steam and in all honesty sometimes I just want to lay back in my chair and get to feel human again.

Now, take all those things, add one crazy B**** miserable runaway wife friend who knows how to game the system and now with the decision made to leave me, the only hope she has is to make me into a physical threat if she wants any chance at the house and full custody.

Throw in an organization that "protects women" from evil men that own guns? and guess what? You get a whole bunch of people telling her what she has to do to have any chance at anything. Its a desperation attempt, and since I made my texts only about requesting the access to my son, all communication from her has stopped. This was all a fishing expedition trying to antagonize me into saying mean things that could be construed into an unsafe environment when the reality is its just fine as history has shown.

that's whats going on. Now that they know I'm on to their techniques, they have stopped communicating and are trying hard for anything they can to get a BS charge going against me. If they have me in criminal court on some BS thing of violence or weapons or whatever while they launch a family law motion against me claiming she is unsafe... then I lose my son and my house.

and these people are very experienced coaches. It really is a full blown set up. I see it all now.


----------



## Sad Man

Tatsuhiko said:


> She wants full custody of the child, and might want to move the boyfriend into the family home so they can all play happy family together without interference from the actual _owner_ of the home. That's the "mouse" she's looking to get rid of.



I disagree with the boyfriend thing, I really don't think I'm in denial about it, its just impossible. Plus shes never been a sex fiend. She really is almost one of those take it or leave it types for the most part. She has her moments but they aren't very frequent. I never got oral for over a decade for example...

but I should probably change my name now from Sad Man to Mouse Man, because youre right about that part. and her b**** friends are the exterminators.

seriously though, this emotional ups and downs thing is hard on a guy. Part of me wants to just give up and walk away from everything. I wont, but I do feel like it at times.


----------



## EleGirl

Sad Man said:


> I texted her 10 more times asking for specific conditions and what criteria must be met before I can see, meet, visit, return to school etc.
> 
> I gave her 10 numbered questions that were specific in nature and can only be answered specifically. They all pertained to the safety of my son and when where etc I could get access to him.
> 
> I can hear the church bells in the distance chiming for 9 am, time to get on the phone I need a lawyer NOW!


Stop texting her! you are going to look like a stalker with all that texting. Just stop it. I know it's hard. I went through this during my divorce. My then husband picked our son up from school and disappeared most of a week. All I knew is that his lawyer said that they went camping. I was very concerned that he as sneaking our son out of the USA. 

I got a lawyer and who called an emergency court hearing. My husband was ordered to show up in court. The judge told him that if he ever did something like that again he'd only get supervised visitation. It all clamed down.

Why did you have your son full time up to now? Why didn't your wife have him part of the time?


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## EleGirl

I just read your last two posts. The best thing you can do now is just find the strength to be calm no matter what happens.

Do you have a camera that you can have in the house and maybe outside the house incase someone comes there? Some kind of motion activated camera would be good. A video door bell might work for the front door.


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## Satya

Maybe this should be moved to the private section? He probably shouldn't be discussing his dealings during this process in an open forum.


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## Peter/

I knew there was a lot more to this, but my advice holds, sell it, sell it all!!!

If she is looking to take the house from you then beat her to it, don't buy her out, but get it advertized for a sensible price and visible for whole county to see, suddenly the one thing she thought she might get and be able to keep is going to be taken away from her and just because the house is sold she doesn't have to get the money, put it in trust for your son, it will pay his college tuition.

Keep calm, easy to say and it's gonna be a long weekend!

Hang in there but scare the shizzle outta her by putting adds up for the house! If she's being coached and they think the house is their golden egg, then you have to do the unpredictable thing and at least advertize it, it can't go negatively against you in court as it can be explained that you are exploring options in case there is no resolution and you will need to sell the house in order to move on with life, this is the rug you need to pull from under her feet!


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I think you have to stop with the police route here. They can't and won't do anything without a court order. 

Yes, it may be a while before you get it and get to see your son 

That sucks but patience will be very important here.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

And any abuse claims will only matter towards custody, not division of assets. 
She can't get the house 100% even if she had proof of abuse.


----------



## Sad Man

Now the feeling of him being gone is really starting to sink in. I guess nerves and adrenalin are slowing. My home feels so empty and I stare at my sons room just crying how much I miss him.

Advertise the house? If we are joint owners I don't think I can do that.
Yes, the police route is over now too because she has gone into protective hiding, which is completely ridiculous!
I have stopped texting since yesterday morning. I am tempted to ask again to see my son in some way but its clear that's not going to happen.
Theres no hope now except through the courts which will take some time I guess. I cant imagine how my son will get over this ever. What are they telling him? What are they doing to him? Is he eating properly? He loves his bedroom with his fish, the stars on the ceiling and his house cats. so much more. He loved his life here and now shes ripped him away from it for just pure nonsense.

as for cameras/video, we do, well now I do have a security camera system outside of the home. My mom has been here whenever I'm not to make sure the house and property are somewhat untampered with in anyway.

You can bet I wont be meeting with her or anything like that but if I did I will have my phone recording the whole time. I don't want to be accused of something which is already what theyre trying to do. 

I don't how she can feel threatened. There is nothing to go by on that except her own paranoia or imagination. Nothing.

unless she really does have someone else and shes lied to me so many times about it she thinks I'm going to lose it when I find out? I certainly wouldn't like it, its a complete betrayal to me and our son if that was the case. I confronted her but if she was just lying all this time about it, it would only make things worse.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Sad Man said:


> I disagree with the boyfriend thing, I really don't think I'm in denial about it, its just impossible. Plus shes never been a sex fiend. She really is almost one of those take it or leave it types for the most part. She has her moments but they aren't very frequent. I never got oral for over a decade for example...
> 
> but I should probably change my name now from Sad Man to Mouse Man, because youre right about that part. and her b**** friends are the exterminators.
> 
> seriously though, this emotional ups and downs thing is hard on a guy. Part of me wants to just give up and walk away from everything. I wont, but I do feel like it at times.


You obviously know her better than we do. But almost every day I read a story in here (and in other forums) about a wife who "wasn't into sex". Later we find that she did things enthusiastically for her boyfriend that she never did for her husband. And the husband is surprised too, because his angelic wife is the last person he'd suspect of having even having an affair, much less a kinky swallowing BDSM one. 

I hope you're right about there not being another man. It's worth investigating in any case. Just don't do anything that makes you appear anything less than an angel. Keep a VAR (voice-activated recorder) on your person to record all interaction with her. If she's trying to get a rise out of you in any confrontation, the recorded conversation illustrating your calmness will be useful later.


----------



## Sad Man

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> And any abuse claims will only matter towards custody, not division of assets.
> She can't get the house 100% even if she had proof of abuse.


Somehow along the way, ive gotten the idea that she is entitled maybe not to the house itself, but maybe sole possession of the home ?

not sure where that got put into my head, it really has been a blur


----------



## Nucking Futs

Sad Man said:


> Somehow along the way, ive gotten the idea that she is entitled maybe not to the house itself, but maybe sole possession of the home ?
> 
> not sure where that got put into my head, it really has been a blur


It can happen in some jurisdictions. If she gets full custody and you get supervised visitation some judges will award her sole use of the house until the children grow up then the house gets sold and the proceeds split. You get the joy of paying for at least half of it the whole time while not being allowed to even approach it, she moves her new man in and they live it up on your dime. It's very rare, I seriously doubt she can pull it off.


----------



## ABHale

Sad Man said:


> Now the feeling of him being gone is really starting to sink in. I guess nerves and adrenalin are slowing. My home feels so empty and I stare at my sons room just crying how much I miss him.
> 
> Advertise the house? If we are joint owners I don't think I can do that.
> Yes, the police route is over now too because she has gone into protective hiding, which is completely ridiculous!
> I have stopped texting since yesterday morning. I am tempted to ask again to see my son in some way but its clear that's not going to happen.
> Theres no hope now except through the courts which will take some time I guess. I cant imagine how my son will get over this ever. What are they telling him? What are they doing to him? Is he eating properly? He loves his bedroom with his fish, the stars on the ceiling and his house cats. so much more. He loved his life here and now shes ripped him away from it for just pure nonsense.
> 
> as for cameras/video, we do, well now I do have a security camera system outside of the home. My mom has been here whenever I'm not to make sure the house and property are somewhat untampered with in anyway.
> 
> You can bet I wont be meeting with her or anything like that but if I did I will have my phone recording the whole time. I don't want to be accused of something which is already what theyre trying to do.
> 
> I don't how she can feel threatened. There is nothing to go by on that except her own paranoia or imagination. Nothing.
> 
> unless she really does have someone else and shes lied to me so many times about it she thinks I'm going to lose it when I find out? I certainly wouldn't like it, its a complete betrayal to me and our son if that was the case. I confronted her but if she was just lying all this time about it, it would only make things worse.


Will you just read what you just posted. 

Is any of this going to help? Hell no. 

Get a ****ing grip. 

Yes you son is safe and ok. 

You are playing into their ****ing hands right now. 

GET A GRIP.


----------



## Sad Man

update today, still no son, no contact, no nothing. my sister tried texting her too but no response. I'm sure shes had her phone taken away from her.

also, I'm thinking she had some sort of breakdown. I had to go through all our papers and she was doing such a good job of managing everything. I'm not surprised if shes just exhausted and confused.

I still have to do my stuff just to protect myself and our son. This really is tragic.


----------



## honcho

Sad Man said:


> update today, still no son, no contact, no nothing. my sister tried texting her too but no response. I'm sure shes had her phone taken away from her.
> 
> also, I'm thinking she had some sort of breakdown. I had to go through all our papers and she was doing such a good job of managing everything. I'm not surprised if shes just exhausted and confused.
> 
> I still have to do my stuff just to protect myself and our son. This really is tragic.


You need to stop trying to contact her and tell your family they also need to stop attempting. This stuff right now just makes it harder for you to see your child and easier to claim harassment. It's hard but you must concentrate on long term right now. 

Your stbx is setting you up here and your taking the bait. Quit excusing her behavior. She has attacked you and using your son as a pawn. Don't be shocked if in a couple of days of no contact she reaches out to you. Again don't take the bait as much as you may want to, she's trying to set you up. You need to follow the legal system to the letter at this point and while incredibly frustrating and slow it's really your only play.


----------



## EleGirl

Sad Man said:


> update today, still no son, no contact, no nothing. my sister tried texting her too but no response. I'm sure shes had her phone taken away from her.


Unless she's locked up in a mental ward, no they have not taken her phone away from her. 



Sad Man said:


> also, I'm thinking she had some sort of breakdown. I had to go through all our papers and she was doing such a good job of managing everything. I'm not surprised if shes just exhausted and confused.


What? Managing personal finances and stuff is enough to make a person have a breakdown and become exhausted and confused? That's a normal part of life. 

By the way, I suggest you get photo copies of all those papers and store the copies some place safe, away from your home. She has every right to come to the and take them all. It's not an unusual thing to happen. In her case it would probably be with a police escort.



Sad Man said:


> I still have to do my stuff just to protect myself and our son. This really is tragic.


I know this is a huge drama right now, but it will settle down. There will a court date, custody and visitation will be set and life will go on. It's hard to believe, I'm sure, but it will.

She cannot stay in a shelter indefinitely. most only allow a month or so.


----------



## Sad Man

Ive read the website for the shelter I suspect shes in. Its almost like a damned cult!!

all sorts of man hating nonsense and how "mean looks" and "disagreements" with your spouse are them trying to control you and a form of abuse!!

They have all sorts of child counselling etc... 

What kind of stupid sick garbage are they feeding my son? Is he even going to want to see his Daddy now??

this is insane now.

guaranteed the restraining order is coming based on nothing but one sided trash like Ive made a "mean" look at her. These places out to be outlawed! My son is going to need deprogramming.


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## Lostinthought61

have you lawyered up yet? have you filed ? have you petition the court for visitation rights? Also have you contacted a Individual counselor?


----------



## naiveonedave

Lostinthought61 said:


> have you lawyered up yet? have you filed ? have you petition the court for visitation rights? Also have you contacted a Individual counselor?


I can't like this enough. You need to do this NOW. Find the best shark you can and get the ball moving. 

And get counseling. You need support during this WAR that you are now facing.


----------



## Sad Man

Ive lawyered up and the wheels are in motion. 

my lawyer had given me a billion instructions on what to do, and to have them done in writing, in word format to them by Monday AM.

I have written 60 pages of stuff, stories, etc, all about my wife, kid, our relationships etc.. I had to have my mother take my handwriting and type it all out into word.

It was emailed to them at 2AM today. They are compiling all that info into affidavits which is the first step so they can file all the other necessary orders.

It should be before the courts quickly, theres 3 of them working on it now.


----------



## Sad Man

naiveonedave said:


> I can't like this enough. You need to do this NOW. Find the best shark you can and get the ball moving.
> 
> And get counseling. You need support during this WAR that you are now facing.



sorry forgot to mention the counselling.

No I haven't had time to explore that yet. I'm coming back down to Earth now, appetite coming back, sleep coming back etc... so I will probably be needing help very soon.


----------



## AtMyEnd

Sad Man said:


> Hi. Rough last month or so culminating in a humiliating heartbreak last night.
> 
> About a month ago she told me she loved me but wasn't in love with me,, seems to be a common trend here? So naturally I did some soul searching. About 4 months prior she went through a super horny stage, (yes, that's another strike) and of course this is after about a year of weight loss and getting fit and healthy.
> 
> We have been together for 25 years, and had our little boy almost 7 years ago. I am the most loving and responsible Dad I honestly know. Ive not been perfect with her, I always put our family first above any other thing to a fault sometimes I gather now that ive been focused on US first instead of noticing her little needs at times.
> 
> I have never been violent, threatening, unfaithful. I do not drink, do drugs, gamble, womanize or cheat, and every moment of my day is spent working towards making our house better, or vehicles better or god knows what. and that in itself is part of the problem
> 
> Things began to go sour about 7 years ago when she became hardcore on facebook, that morphed into texting and whatnot on her phone, so much so that she often sits in other room than me and our son. She has spent this summer quickly whisking my boy away to go to some prearranged meeting with my sons friends at parks, swimming pools etc. She works non stop too. She is amazingly busy which is how I cannot accept that there is someone else. Of course with that weight loss came the wearing of thongs again, and waxing and the usual other stuff.
> 
> I have seen her phone contacts, found a couple of questionable people, one being an ex that never amounted to anything, but I did get her to admit he contacted her, ironically around the horny time.
> 
> So I am not without fault in this. As she withdrew from me I slunk back in my chair and into a state of depression somewhat, trying to let her live her life and not interfere, especially since she was taking my boy everywhere. I didn't want to be the odd man out with the other single mothers (most of them are) so I just made myself busy elsewhere.
> 
> We were working on things and supposed to meet in the morning with a neutral party who has the wisdom and ability to speak frankly to both of us. Today she picked up our son from school (odd) then disappeared on errands and whatnot, all the time lying to me about where she was because she finally came home around 8 pm, 2-3 hours later than 'normal" but she showed up with the police to collect some of her things. I was shocked, but not totally.
> 
> I have never been violent, threatening or anything of the such. For her to humiliate me in front of the neighbourhood like that is ridiculous but I cant change that.
> 
> Our son is "somewhere safe" like he wasn't safe here???
> 
> I'm expecting to talk to her today, its now 6 am and I haven't slept a wink.
> 
> is it a lying cheating thing? all the hallmarks are there yet she strongly denies and I honestly cant see where she would have found the time. She could be an honest walk away wife, like I'm reading about too.
> 
> But I think she did this today because she didn't want to face the third party who wasn't going to be scared to call a spade a spade.
> 
> shes also inundated with 2 of her coworkers who have seemed to be undermining any progress we made on our days off. When she went back to work (3 days/week) every time she came home angry at me.
> 
> What do I do? I live in Ontario Canada and its no fault from what Ive read tonight. I'm a basketcase. She says she wanted time and I was pushing too much trying to address every little issue (which I see is also typical) but today I pushed too hard.
> 
> and I did something stupid today. I called her work and asked to speak to the woman that was meddling so much into our lives. I told her who I was and asked her to do us all a favour and to mind her own f'in business which was met with a hangup.
> 
> but police? sheesh!
> 
> I'm a mess, please people talk me down!


While my wife never left or showed up with the police, I was in a similar place as you were. A few years ago she lost weight and got herself back in shape and became more active. Things had been going downhill with our marriage, I had put on weight and was depressed. She started to withdraw herself, doing more on her own and taking our son more places just the two of them. Like you, because of this I began to withdraw myself as well. I tried make plans to do things with her and do things as a family, but it always seemed she had something to do for work or had other plans, and withdrew more.

Fast forward a little we got in an argument one night, both of us admitted to withdrawing ourselves from each other and the reasons, but as time went neither one of did anything about it. Fast forward a little more, I ended up having an online EA which she found out about, and then shortly after that I found out about her texting with other men. It was a very rough time, I wanted to try and work on things but she would never commit to it. I didn't want to just call it quits because of our young son and how the split may affect him, so I stayed. First I tried to do whatever I could to make things work and they all seemed to fail. Then after a few posts on here and some suggestions I pulled the 180, it was a modified 180 since we still lived together, have a son and all the other responsibilities, but it has worked.

Since the last big blow up back in February she has done a lot of odd unexplainable things, she has been caught lying to me about stupid things, I've found out that throughout all of our problems she had been telling her friends things that have happened but leaving out certain parts so that I look like the bad guy in all of it and her behavior has just been outright bizarre. Things have been pretty good now since about mid June. We've talked about a lot of what's happened but I've still never gotten a clear explanation on why she lied about certain things or behaved the way she did.

The odd behavior has stopped, the lying has stopped and things are pretty good now but I still don't understand it all. My only thinking about your situation is that she feels guilty about something, paranoid that you're going to find something out and she's just preparing for it. I think that my wife thought I was going to leave her after I confronted her about what I had found out and she went into complete defense mode for no reason. 

All I can really say is if she's out of the house, cut all contact with her unless it's absolutely necessary. If she's keeping your son from you, contact her at least once a week only asking when you can see him. That way she can't say that you just abandoned him or anything like that. Save those texts and her responses or lack of responses, screen shots and save them on a zip drive or something. Don't contact any of her friends or even talk to your mutual friends about all of this. Things always get twisted or can be taken the wrong way and she could try to use that against you. Just live your life the best you can right now without her in it and see how things play out.


----------



## Sad Man

Thanks for that AtMyend.

I really think shes either exhausted and not mentally well, perhaps feels like shes done as a result of years of this or that minor issues, then we never did talk them out really and put them into history for us.

I was unaware that all these minor things would still such a big deal for her. 

Or she has kept a really bad secret from me (cheating?) and believes I will blow my top and go nuts when I find out?

I really hoped we could work it all out before the red line of breaking my sons heart was breeched. That's what kills me the most.


----------



## EleGirl

Sad Man said:


> Ive read the website for the shelter I suspect shes in. Its almost like a damned cult!!
> 
> all sorts of man hating nonsense and how "mean looks" and "disagreements" with your spouse are them trying to control you and a form of abuse!!
> 
> They have all sorts of child counselling etc...
> 
> What kind of stupid sick garbage are they feeding my son? Is he even going to want to see his Daddy now??
> 
> this is insane now.
> 
> guaranteed the restraining order is coming based on nothing but one sided trash like Ive made a "mean" look at her. These places out to be outlawed! My son is going to need deprogramming.


Outlawed? Do you realize that there is a lot of real abuse that goes on? If you wife and/or child were not abused they will figure that out. But they have to start from a cautious stand point.

To me, it sounds very odd that you wife was even able to get into a shelter without any proof of abuse. Those places usually have a long waiting list and not even near enough beds for the people needed help.

They usually look for proof of abuse. For example I was married to a man who was physically abusive, but I had never called the police on him, never recorded the bruises, etc. With no proof of abuse no shelter would help. 

Plus, they usually do not take people who have the money to help themselves. The shelters exist mostly for those who have no funds to get out and get a safe place on their own. luckily had did have that and was able to get away without a shelter.

Most shelters are not fun places to be at. They are crowded. A lot of people living very close together at a very bad time in their lives. 

The shelters are needed because most of the people who go there need it. If your wife lied, that's on her, not the shelter.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I agree with Elegirl... those shelters dont just open up for everyone. I have serious doubts that she is in a shelter, I think she is staying with a friend who has agreed to hide them.


----------



## Sad Man

I certainly see the need for them, especially in a physically abusive case like you lived.

Outreach Program | Faye Peterson House

Look what "abuse" is. 

anyone can construe a normal marriage as abusive using those guidelines.

If you read the whole site, its clear they are more about making a societal change and infecting all sorts of "social justice"

Me, being a big scary white male that owns evil guns and has been known to raise his evil voice at times, I'm clearly theyre number one target. 

I wouldn't think that way of them but its quite clear what they are about if you read all their stuff on the page.


----------



## Lostinthought61

SD, one of the things that would help in going to a counselor now versus later is two fold first they will help you emotional through this deluge of crap she is putting you through, but the second is more strategic, if she questions your emotional state of mind, she propagates accusations with out merit, it would be good to have a therapist who knows a bit about you to perform any evaluation the a court may ask for.


----------



## hope4family

Sad Man said:


> I certainly see the need for them, especially in a physically abusive case like you lived.
> 
> Outreach Program | Faye Peterson House
> 
> Look what "abuse" is.
> 
> anyone can construe a normal marriage as abusive using those guidelines.
> 
> If you read the whole site, its clear they are more about making a societal change and infecting all sorts of "social justice"
> 
> Me, being a big scary white male that owns evil guns and has been known to raise his evil voice at times, I'm clearly theyre number one target.
> 
> I wouldn't think that way of them but its quite clear what they are about if you read all their stuff on the page.


Please stay focused on the task and had. Worry not about societal dogma. Just follow the law, and remain cool, firm, dispassionate about it. 

Both you and I own firearms. I had to go through the US (ATF) legal process for owning suppressors, which involved lawyers, finger printing, all sorts of background stuff and law compliance. 

You were smart enough to figure out how to own firearms in Canada, don't be stupid and ruin all you have worked for for nothing. There is still plenty of time for this to turn around.


----------



## Sad Man

I'm just angered by this whole thing so much!

She emailed me saying because I took my money out of her joint account she was closing the utility accounts that are in her name, electricity, gas, etc...

I told her to tell me how much she needed and I would put it in the account, instead of telling me I just got back this robotic response that is obviously not written by her, nor was the first one (they were almost form letters)

I also said this was not the time to discuss financial issues and I wanted to access my son. I want to know where and when I can see and meet with him.

She addressed the bills part, but refuses to address the son part!! I'm everything! I'm sad, mad and every other emotion there is.

She just doesn't address it. obviously keeping my son from me. And this isn't a cult??


----------



## 3Xnocharm

We keep telling you and telling you to STOP making demands to see your son! All you are doing is playing right into her hands with harassment! She is saving every email, every text, every voicemail and will use them as proof that you are unstable and harassing her.


----------



## Sad Man

3Xnocharm said:


> We keep telling you and telling you to STOP making demands to see your son! All you are doing is playing right into her hands with harassment! She is saving every email, every text, every voicemail and will use them as proof that you are unstable and harassing her.



Asking to see my son is supposedly helping my case, not hurting it. By asking a time/place/criteria to see and visit with him should not be hurting my case at all.

I know this is all being saved, who knows if even what I say here isn't being used against me somehow but there certainly is nothing wrong with asking to see my son and questioning his condition.

Not asking should be making things worse because it would show I didn't care.

She has not asked me to stop, she only ignores my requests, so that shouldn't be harassment either.

I suspect she has asked for a restraining order and may have not been granted one (because at best they would have to manufacture that I was a threat or recently became one and I am not!)

but who knows, maybe I'm wrong. I have been wrong about everything else so far.


----------



## kag123

How is she legally allowed to keep him out of school? 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Rubix Cubed

Sad Man said:


> I certainly see the need for them, especially in a physically abusive case like you lived.
> 
> Outreach Program | Faye Peterson House
> 
> Look what "abuse" is.
> 
> anyone can construe a normal marriage as abusive using those guidelines.
> 
> If you read the whole site, its clear they are more about making a societal change and infecting all sorts of "social justice"
> 
> Me, being a big scary white male that owns evil guns and has been known to raise his evil voice at times, I'm clearly theyre number one target.
> 
> I wouldn't think that way of them but its quite clear what they are about if you read all their stuff on the page.


 By that list she has done more than half of those things to you, so she is abusing you.
Show that list to your lawyer and tick off everything she has done to you. abusive language, witholding son, threatening leaving,play mindgames etc.


----------



## Affaircare

kag123 said:


> How is she legally allowed to keep him out of school?


Oh that's an easy one @kag123. There is no custody order in place so envision a normal home with mom and dad, and the child has the flu and mom just decides to keep the child home. Maybe it's a one week flu...she keeps him home one week. 

From a legal point of view, that's all that's happened at this point. [Edited to add: FROM THE SCHOOL's point of view.... ]


----------



## jlg07

Sad Man said:


> thanks again so much. Its giving me some strength back.
> 
> She cannot keep him away from me.
> 
> Today is my birthday. I am 47 years old. Youd think shed at least let him phone me and say happy birthday daddy. He would love to do it but shes keeping that from happening.


Sad Man, please start documenting this stuff. You need to keep a DETAILED timeline of events like this. Copy off your texts from her (with her saying she have your son facetime you, and does not). I think this will help you in the long run with your chances in the divorce (your lawyer will appreciate it for sure).

Her saying "he's in a safe place" makes me think she's already had directions on this from some one (lawyer, social worked, etc.) so that you can't say she's an unfit mother.

EDT: Sorry, just caught up on your thread -- she IS being coached and you ARE documenting everything (I hope!)


----------



## Sad Man

New update tonight!

My son facetimed with me!

oddly though the face time came through her email, and not her phone for some reason.

but it lasted about 4 seconds at best. My son said Hi Daddy! and the screen froze and I was so excited and was saying all sorts of stuff as my excitement and emotions lit right up, but that was it. I don't know if he heard me, or saw me or anything. I kept calling back, and I sent a short text asking if that was all? and guess what? it was all.

tried several times to establish contact again but no luck.

it was like a deliberate attempt to hurt/annoy me. Using my kid to hurt me! either this cult is limiting her outside contact or something isn't adding up just right


----------



## Sad Man

Affaircare said:


> Oh that's an easy one @kag123. There is no custody order in place so envision a normal home with mom and dad, and the child has the flu and mom just decides to keep the child home. Maybe it's a one week flu...she keeps him home one week.
> 
> From a legal point of view, that's all that's happened at this point. [Edited to add: FROM THE SCHOOL's point of view.... ]



exactly.

nothing I can do about it. its awful that hes missing school so much, not from an educational standpoint so much, as he is a really sharp kid, but from a social standpoint. I know he must be missing everything from his normal life.


----------



## Sad Man

Rubix Cubed said:


> By that list she has done more than half of those things to you, so she is abusing you.
> Show that list to your lawyer and tick off everything she has done to you. abusive language, witholding son, threatening leaving,play mindgames etc.



that's true. She controlled all our finances, she gave me mean looks, and once she even called me a "non-functioning human being".

I function just fine, and I think she meant "in life"


----------



## Sad Man

and one more thing, here is what the Criminal Code of Canada says about child abduction, this is the exact law/code:

Abduction
283. (1) Every one who, being the parent, guardian or person having the lawful care or charge of a person under the age of fourteen years, takes, entices away, conceals, detains, receives or harbours that person, whether or not there is a custody order in relation to that person made by a court anywhere in Canada, with intent to deprive a parent or guardian, or any other person who has the lawful care or charge of that person, of the possession of that person, is guilty of
(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years; or
(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction

doesn't that exactly tell us that she is guilty of child abduction? It doesn't say its OK if you check into a cult organization or are being harboured by friends or anything like that!

You know, this is completely awful but in a sense I'm so used to her dragging him away from me for the last several months in some very very sad way, I'm almost used to it. That nonsense will not continue I hope. I want my boy!


----------



## EleGirl

Sad Man said:


> I certainly see the need for them, especially in a physically abusive case like you lived.
> 
> Outreach Program | Faye Peterson House
> 
> Look what "abuse" is.
> 
> anyone can construe a normal marriage as abusive using those guidelines.
> 
> If you read the whole site, its clear they are more about making a societal change and infecting all sorts of "social justice"
> 
> Me, being a big scary white male that owns evil guns and has been known to raise his evil voice at times, I'm clearly theyre number one target.
> 
> I wouldn't think that way of them but its quite clear what they are about if you read all their stuff on the page.



You really think that the things in the below list are normal in a marriage and not really abuse?




Does your partner push, slap, punch, choke or restrain you?
Does your partner intimidate you or make you afraid by using looks, actions and/or gestures?
Does your partner put you down, call you names and make you feel bad about yourself? Does your partner play mind games and make you feel guilty or crazy?
Does your partner control you, limiting your outside involvements and who you see and talk to?
Does your partner make light of the abuse and not take your concerns seriously? Does you partner blame you for the abuse?
Does your partner use the children to control you?
Does your partner not allow you to participate in decision making?
Does your partner control the finances, not allowing you to have knowledge of or access to family income?
Does your partner threaten to hurt you, leave you and / or commit suicide?


----------



## EleGirl

Sad Man said:


> and one more thing, here is what the Criminal Code of Canada says about child abduction, this is the exact law/code:
> 
> Abduction
> 283. (1) Every one who, being the parent, guardian or person having the lawful care or charge of a person under the age of fourteen years, takes, entices away, conceals, detains, receives or harbours that person, whether or not there is a custody order in relation to that person made by a court anywhere in Canada, with intent to deprive a parent or guardian, or any other person who has the lawful care or charge of that person, of the possession of that person, is guilty of
> (a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years; or
> (b) an offence punishable on summary conviction
> 
> doesn't that exactly tell us that she is guilty of child abduction? It doesn't say its OK if you check into a cult organization or are being harboured by friends or anything like that!
> 
> You know, this is completely awful but in a sense I'm so used to her dragging him away from me for the last several months in some very very sad way, I'm almost used to it. That nonsense will not continue I hope. I want my boy!


I know that this is hard. But you need to let your attorney handle this. 

If she is in a shelter with your son, then she's following the law and it's not abduction. Even if she lied about the abuse, the court is not likely to do anything to her for that. Instead they will seek to get the entire situation calmed down and custody/time-sharing with your son set up so that his life is not disrupted as little as possible. And this is the best outcome here.

Did you talk to your lawyer today? If so what did she say?

You need to get into counseling. It's very important at this point. For one thing it will look good for you in court. And you are rather all over the place. I get that this is a tough time, but it's in tough times when people need help. So get the help you need.


----------



## Affaircare

@EleGirl, 

On @Sad Man's behalf I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Obviously, no--none of those things on the list are the way that one healthy adults relates to their other healthy spouse. And yet, looked at in a certain way, we've all done things on this list at least once in our marriage. I'll give you some examples:

Does your partner push, slap, punch, choke or restrain you?
Ever punched your spouse in the arm while kidding them about a football game? Ever wrestled with your partner during a tickle war? Ever been passionate and rolled on top of your spouse and held their hands down? If so you are guilty of this. 

Does your partner intimidate you or make you afraid by using looks, actions and/or gestures?
Are you 6ft tall or more and walk right up so your toes touch your spouse's toes and look down on them? Have you have made an angry face at them? Ever "shot daggers" at them with your eyes? Or stuck out your tongue behind their back? If so you are guilty of this. 

Does your partner put you down, call you names and make you feel bad about yourself? Does your partner play mind games and make you feel guilty or crazy?
Ever said something to your spouse and had them say "You don't have to be a jerk about it" when you weren't being a jerk? Have you ever had your spouse go off on you because you "made them feel bad" and you didn't really do anything? If so you are guilty of this. 

Does your partner control you, limiting your outside involvements and who you see and talk to?
Ever had your spouse want to "just be friends" with some guy at work and when you say they can't see the guy, have them accuse you of limiting who they can and can not see? Ever had your spouse's sibling continuously try to break up your marriage and when you say the sibling isn't welcome for Thanksgiving, been accused of isolating? If so you are guilty of this. 

Does your partner make light of the abuse and not take your concerns seriously? Does you partner blame you for the abuse?
Ever had your spouse lose their **** over something because they won't take a minute to hear the whole rest of the story but instead they just go off? And then you joke/tease/kid because you know the whole story but they're flipping out and accusing you of not taking it seriously? If so you are guilty of this. 

Does your partner use the children to control you?
I can't think of a good example of this one! LOL

Does your partner not allow you to participate in decision making?
Ever asked a spouse what they want for dinner, had them say they didn't know, made up your mind and headed there...only to be told you didn't let them tell you where they wanted to go? If so you are guilty of this. 

Does your partner control the finances, not allowing you to have knowledge of or access to family income?
Of the two spouses, is your spouse better at keeping the bills organized and paying them on time? Do you know the password to all the bank accounts, online bill payment sites, and card PIN numbers. If so you are guilty of this. 

Does your partner threaten to hurt you, leave you and / or commit suicide?
Ever had a fight with your spouse and as voices escalate one of the two of you says they want to leave or says they are going to kick your ass into the street? If so you are guilty of this. 

Now I'm not saying that any of these things would be the way a good, strong, growing, loving marriage should be! If there is a pattern of this kind of behavior consistently, it is clearly abuse! But what I am saying is that almost all marriages over the course of years have moments that "could" qualify for these abuse examples that are absolutely bad behavior but also absolutely not abuse. These definitions should be much clearer and probably something like "If you see five of these six signs, you may want to learn more."


----------



## EleGirl

Affaircare said:


> @EleGirl,
> 
> On @Sad Man's behalf I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Obviously, no--none of those things on the list are the way that one healthy adults relates to their other healthy spouse. And yet, looked at in a certain way, we've all done things on this list at least once in our marriage. I'll give you some examples:
> 
> Does your partner push, slap, punch, choke or restrain you?
> Ever punched your spouse in the arm while kidding them about a football game? Ever wrestled with your partner during a tickle war? Ever been passionate and rolled on top of your spouse and held their hands down? If so you are guilty of this.
> 
> Does your partner intimidate you or make you afraid by using looks, actions and/or gestures?
> Are you 6ft tall or more and walk right up so your toes touch your spouse's toes and look down on them? Have you have made an angry face at them? Ever "shot daggers" at them with your eyes? Or stuck out your tongue behind their back? If so you are guilty of this.
> 
> Does your partner put you down, call you names and make you feel bad about yourself? Does your partner play mind games and make you feel guilty or crazy?
> Ever said something to your spouse and had them say "You don't have to be a jerk about it" when you weren't being a jerk? Have you ever had your spouse go off on you because you "made them feel bad" and you didn't really do anything? If so you are guilty of this.
> 
> Does your partner control you, limiting your outside involvements and who you see and talk to?
> Ever had your spouse want to "just be friends" with some guy at work and when you say they can't see the guy, have them accuse you of limiting who they can and can not see? Ever had your spouse's sibling continuously try to break up your marriage and when you say the sibling isn't welcome for Thanksgiving, been accused of isolating? If so you are guilty of this.
> 
> Does your partner make light of the abuse and not take your concerns seriously? Does you partner blame you for the abuse?
> Ever had your spouse lose their **** over something because they won't take a minute to hear the whole rest of the story but instead they just go off? And then you joke/tease/kid because you know the whole story but they're flipping out and accusing you of not taking it seriously? If so you are guilty of this.
> 
> Does your partner use the children to control you?
> I can't think of a good example of this one! LOL
> 
> Does your partner not allow you to participate in decision making?
> Ever asked a spouse what they want for dinner, had them say they didn't know, made up your mind and headed there...only to be told you didn't let them tell you where they wanted to go? If so you are guilty of this.
> 
> Does your partner control the finances, not allowing you to have knowledge of or access to family income?
> Of the two spouses, is your spouse better at keeping the bills organized and paying them on time? Do you know the password to all the bank accounts, online bill payment sites, and card PIN numbers. If so you are guilty of this.
> 
> Does your partner threaten to hurt you, leave you and / or commit suicide?
> Ever had a fight with your spouse and as voices escalate one of the two of you says they want to leave or says they are going to kick your ass into the street? If so you are guilty of this.
> 
> Now I'm not saying that any of these things would be the way a good, strong, growing, loving marriage should be! If there is a pattern of this kind of behavior consistently, it is clearly abuse! But what I am saying is that almost all marriages over the course of years have moments that "could" qualify for these abuse examples that are absolutely bad behavior but also absolutely not abuse. These definitions should be much clearer and probably something like "If you see five of these six signs, you may want to learn more."


I think that it would have been good to let the OP answer for himself. That's what I was looking for.


----------



## Sad Man

EleGirl said:


> You really think that the things in the below list are normal in a marriage and not really abuse?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does your partner push, slap, punch, choke or restrain you?
> Does your partner intimidate you or make you afraid by using looks, actions and/or gestures?
> Does your partner put you down, call you names and make you feel bad about yourself? Does your partner play mind games and make you feel guilty or crazy?
> Does your partner control you, limiting your outside involvements and who you see and talk to?
> Does your partner make light of the abuse and not take your concerns seriously? Does you partner blame you for the abuse?
> Does your partner use the children to control you?
> Does your partner not allow you to participate in decision making?
> Does your partner control the finances, not allowing you to have knowledge of or access to family income?
> Does your partner threaten to hurt you, leave you and / or commit suicide?


Affaircare is right, what I was getting at is that those definitions are so wide ranging and they don't actually include any context of the situation. The just quickly throw out the term "ABUSE!"

its like being a Salem Witch for me.


----------



## Sad Man

One of our mutual friends (the one that was supposed to help us mediate/define our problems 12 hours before she bolted) called me this morning, asking about the situation. She was trying to stay out of it somewhat and had live in family company for the last few weeks visiting.

Now she is pissed off, she is going to get involved because this was enough of my wife's BS for her. My son must be in contact with me. She knows I'm not violent or a threat of any kind to either of them and it was my wife who "changed" or became weird over the last few months. She is a real go-getter and determined to get in contact with her and make something happen.

I told her I wont act any differently than what my lawyers advise me though at this time, but I want to see my son and I'm sure nobody would think that's a bad idea.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Where are your attorneys with the emergency order? It takes a day to create and get a judge to sign. What's the holdup?


----------



## Sad Man

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Where are your attorneys with the emergency order? It takes a day to create and get a judge to sign. What's the holdup?


They are working on it. It seems what has to be done is a one or more affidavits must be compiled and filed first and then they can file for motions through the courts for things like emergency custody orders etc..

I have presented a ton of info for them and there are 2 of them working away. Ive got another pile of papers here I have to have done soon which include tax returns etc... a lot of work!


----------



## Sad Man

Ive got updates but cant discuss them at this time. Rest assured my son is still not home though.

By the weekend I should have some good stuff to post.

thanks to everyone following along and offering their advice. It really has helped and given me some real support.


----------



## Sad Man

update:

sorry I cant give up any real information, but my son still isn't home. Judge is giving his decision Monday or Tuesday.

Spent the last 2 days in court, today with ex.

everything has gone in my favor so far, we expect the judgement to as well. but no jinxing it!

I give up my son for the couple more days over the weekend, which I abhor! but it will pay off in spades we think.

PS, my lawyer is great!! Its so nice to have woman jump to stand up for me for a change, what a great feeling that is. My ex would always seem to blame me first for every issue and I told her many times over the years that I just wanted her to stand up for me first, then ask questions later.. just once! but she never did, I was always in the wrong to her.

Today my lawyer and I acted more as a team instead of client and attorney. My lawyer is a beautiful woman and we get along great. I actually jumped down the throat of a court mediator today, and before I knew it my lawyer was right there with me. She was supporting me because we had already discussed the facts I had jumped on him about. My ex got to see this, and I just know that she realized that I was in my element. I wouldn't call her jealous and not envy, I'm not sure what to call that feeling I'm sure she had. She got to see me with a beautiful smart woman standing up for me in ways she never did, and I know that had to affect her in a weird way.

by the way I never even looked at ex. she was a walking corpse to me and I felt nothing towards her at all. I turned my back on her every chance and I think she now is realizing the reality of her actions. In fact, I'm pretty sure because the judge spent a good time telling her all about those actions and what they have generated.

I think this will work out not too bad in the end.


----------



## Marc878

If you're smart you'll cut her totally out of your life. You CAN coparent without engagement 

Do not roll over on this.


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## Satya

Do not get tangled up with feelings for your lawyer. You need to keep a clear head. 

She is REPRESENTING your best interest.
She is doing her job and what she gets paid for.
You need to stay focused on the important things.


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## Peter/

Lawyers are like prostitutes.

You pay each of them in turn to perform a service and a duty as per your individual needs.

Your lawyer is stopping you making your situation worse by you flying off the handle, don't confuse her jumping in the middle of something as support, she is doing it to stop you from creating a problem!

The lawyer knows what she is doing and is handling her end of this bargain, it's her job to work with you in this case and also to prohibit you from f#####g it up by going off half cocked and shooting your mouth off and saying the wrong things to the wrong people, don't get confused by that.

You're still nowhere near where you need to be, I can see this going south.

Emotionally you are raw and clutching at any sign of affection towards you, quick tip here, get a bundle of bills, go out of state for the night, cheap motel near a hunting ground, go get a decent hooker, bang the s##t out of her for the night, oral, anal, whatever your wife never did for you, than go home and enjoy sorting out the divorce.

If you're wondering why cheap motel near hunting ground out of state, it protects you in the advent of "compromise", if there were suspicion of you having sex with another woman whilst still being married that is adultery and you're screwed, this way you can unload all of your baggage in the right way and not get hung up on attachment to your lawyer.


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## Sad Man

I'm not saying she loves me or I love her, just that its nice to have a woman stick up for me for a change. Its a totally unusual feeling for me.

As beautiful and nice as she is I realize she is my lawyer and I have enough decency to never try to breech that, not only for me but also for her.

I also thought that in the judge's eyes we probably looked much better in our appearance and better put together as a pair than our opponents did.

Whether people like to admit it or not we all judge each other from the moment we lay eyes on them and those judgements affect how the interaction goes.


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## sokillme

Sad Man said:


> I'm not saying she loves me or I love her, just that its nice to have a woman stick up for me for a change. Its a totally unusual feeling for me.
> 
> As beautiful and nice as she is I realize she is my lawyer and I have enough decency to never try to breech that, not only for me but also for her.
> 
> I also thought that in the judge's eyes we probably looked much better in our appearance and better put together as a pair than our opponents did.
> 
> Whether people like to admit it or not we all judge each other from the moment we lay eyes on them and those judgements affect how the interaction goes.


Dude you pay her. That is primarily why she is sticking up for you. Make no mistake. Don't get creepy with this lady you need her too much.


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## Mr The Other

Sad Man said:


> I'm not saying she loves me or I love her, just that its nice to have a woman stick up for me for a change. Its a totally unusual feeling for me.
> 
> As beautiful and nice as she is I realize she is my lawyer and I have enough decency to never try to breech that, not only for me but also for her.
> 
> I also thought that in the judge's eyes we probably looked much better in our appearance and better put together as a pair than our opponents did.
> 
> Whether people like to admit it or not we all judge each other from the moment we lay eyes on them and those judgements affect how the interaction goes.


I do not mind you falling in love a little bit, as long as you are self-aware and know that you have something akin to a teenage crush. That sounds deriosory, if so, you have forgotten what it is to have a teenage crush.

Feeling you are supressed are reawoken. Yes, the comparion to a prostitute is valid, but after being sexless as my wife could not be bothered, I started to appreciate the kindness of women who would want nothing more than money to have sex. 

Beaware that you are in a very emotionally vulnerable place. Try not to define yourself by this vulnerability and longing.


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## Sad Man

Ok New update!

Some good news finally. The judge issued his ruling for a temporary order. My x wanted primary custody and for me to leave the house.

She ended up only getting 50/50 custody with me using a 5 day rotation. The judge issued a very fair order and certainly did not side with the woman for a change. That's pretty rare.

Now this is only temporary until a formal separation can take place. Not sure how long that will go, but for now I am happy.

My boy was returned to school today thankfully and I will get to pick him up Thursday after school so I will have him until Tuesday, and so forth.

I'm very happy for all the help people have provided. I'm still in shock though, but I am angry now. I am in fighting mode and I will not take any more crap. 

I owe a lot to my lawyer who made the right calls and pushed me hard so I would see the importance of striking first in this issue. It put me on the offense and rocked the other side backwards. it may be wise to keep up with those tactics.

also, I am moving on, she is dead to me. Its going to be a long time before I can be with another woman, and I cant even imagine it, but ive got lots of love to give and share. hopefully I get to do that with some wonderful woman.


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## Affaircare

All I care about is that your son is back to school and is ordered back in your care. If she decides to withhold him now, she will have the JUDGE to deal with!

I am also tickled that she got a dose of reality, didn't get primary, and didn't get the house but that's the cherry compared to the 50/50 order which is the truly tasty sundae.


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## Sad Man

thank you so much affaircare and all the others who helped me.

I still don't know what happened but all I can do is play the cards I was dealt.

The sad thing is neither of us is does well financially but together we were making it. We had a supportive family and group of friends with a decent future ahead of us. She decided to throw it all away.

Today she is emailing me looking for money to pay "our bills". When I asked for some reasonable explanation of where the money was going to be used I was again met with lies. She screen shot our overdrawn account with payments she made, then showed me the screen shot of the balance of her and my sons account, both which has less than $30 in it now when I know his was over $3K not too long ago.

I asked for the screen shot of the "recent activity" of those accounts to see what had happened...

and if you haven't guessed by now... she refused.

The lies just never stop with her.

edit: and by the way she was complaining in court about my excessive texts yet today from 2:30 PM til about 7:30 PM she emailed me 14 times!


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## Affaircare

STBXW, 

There are no "our bills." When you moved out, you withdrew money from "our accounts" and you acted in a way that indicated you no longer wanted any part of me--and that includes the financial benefit of mingling our funds. I will put all family bills into my name and my finances are no longer your business. Anything that is a bill of yours will no longer have my name on it and will no longer receive my financial support. You are an adult--you are in charge of your financial future without me just as I will be in charge of managing the family budget on my own without you. There is no need to contact me regarding "our bills" again. I am following the court orders. 

Sincerely, 

Sad Man


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## Affaircare

Then... do not contact her again. Just go through all the bills, making a list -- is it yours or hers, the name of the company that's owed, what the rough monthly amount is, and what the balance is. 

ANYTHING that has to do with hers--you call them tomorrow and take your name off of it. Like...cell phone bill? Uh huh. You contact AT&T or T-mobile or whoever, and you indicate that you'll be splitting the bill into HER number and YOUR number. Her car loan and car insurance--call and tell them what's going on and see how you can take your name off it. Joint credit cards--call and cancel them (or she'll run them up)!! Her student loan--nope that's up to her to pay! 

For marital household stuff, assume you'll be in the house for now and just write down what the mortgage is, what the balance is, etc. You may end up paying the mortgage but she'll still need to figure out rent somewhere! And if she's out, you can always rent out a room to a single dad  

The intention behind this is that when she's IN THE MARRIAGE and actively participating in the marriage, she gets the benefit of joint finances and you helping her pay her way. If she wants OUT OF THE MARRIAGE, then she also loses the benefit of a person who helps her pay her way. SHE will now be in charge of her own finances and if she doesn't make enough, she'll have to cut back! The cost of leaving the marriage is that she doesn't get joint money. 

Now, if you two earn approximately the same, and you have 50/50 custody on a rolling 5 day arrangement, I would not guess there would be child support. You support your son in the home you provide, and she'll support him in the house she provides. There's a chance you'll have to sell the house and split the equity (or you'll have to buy her out) but that often doesn't happen until MUCH further down the road near the end of the finalization of the divorce. 

So do the kindest thing you can for her--allow her to learn that the consequence of leaving the marriage is no longer receiving the BENEFIT of the marriage!! "Our bills"...  Pffft!


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## Sad Man

seems like sound advice.

I have started with the bills. Most of the utilities were in her name, so that's the majority of it all. Most of the bills are "joint" bills but if we start looking at the dates, what's already paid, deposits that will be returned to her when the accounts are closed etc.. then shes probably not far off whats she was asking for, but its the lies that kill me.

to take and hide my sons money? most of that was from gifts etc from my family, not hers.

my lawyer will make sure that money finds it way back into existence.

she thinks she can play games with me, and she knows better but seems to have forgotten it.


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## Primrose

What bills are there that she needs to concern herself with? You are in the family home so you will take care of the bills that accumulate there. I fail to see how these bills affect her. 

I'm glad the judge ruled in your favor temporarily. Here is where you stick to a solid plan that will reflect well on you until you are back in court. Document all interaction with her. No phone calls; keep it to text or email. With that said, no constant messaging. No arguing with her over custody issues. Do not be late in picking up/returning your son. Be mindful of the things you talk to your son about. No doubt she will grill him for information.


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## Rick Blaine

Sad man,

You are doing well, and you have grabbed the bull by its horns after getting knocked down and dragged about. You've passed the first test! Congratulations. Now it is time to get gritty and disciplined, strategic and calculating. You are getting great advice regarding keeping communications with your WW minimized and just business. If you need to vent about your wife, do it here online. Don't let her bait you into a verbal altercation and don't badmouth her in front of your children. Not fair to them, and it won't serve you well in the end. 

Separate all accounts right now. Whose name is the house in? 

Lawyers get expensive, so if you can minimize contact with her and e-mail her rather than call her that is your best bet.

Have you filed for divorce? You will need to do that to get the property and assets evenly divided.

In the meantime, as you have reached the anger phase of this grief process, be sure to take care of yourself. Get plenty of exercise and be sure to eat well. I ran like Forest Gump when I was in your shoes and it really helped. The "aggression" of my feet hitting the pavement was my constructive way of striking back. The endorphin high after each run was the best medicine I got, and it will help you sleep better at night, which is extremely important. Exercise will also get you in shape and you will look better, which builds esteem after losing a spouse to infidelity. If you don't like running, choose another form of exercise. 

During this time, your performance at work will take a hit. It's important to let your boss what you're going through so that he or she understands why you are preoccupied and why your focus is not sharp. 

Be sure to spend time with friends and family. Hopefully you have a good support network to lean on. You don't have share everything with them, but you can if they are willing to listen. The important thing is that they are there to lend emotional support just by being there for you. And, of course, you have TAM.

Finally, resist drinking and other forms of self-medication. Focus on your son and being the best dad you can be. Envelop him in love, and don't even think of other women until you have had a chance to process this loss. Above all, this is a process and it takes time. Give yourself the gift of time to go through the five stages of grief, to heal, and to improve yourself. At least a year, even if you do feel love-starved and are craving love and affection. You will be rewarded by your patience, wisdom, and discipline if you allow yourself to fully heal and grow from this traumatic experience. This too shall pass, friend.


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## Sad Man

Thanks for the sound advice and support. As silly as it is coming from strangers, its also comforting coming from strangers as well.

the house is in both our names, we purchased it together, and she or I can force the sale of the house, or one buys out the other.

I really have to analyze the numbers to see if I can afford it. all in all if I have to I guess it will get sold which irks me as my son is the third generation to live in this house and 6th generation for the neighbourhood. I really hate to be the guy that messed it all up.

at the same time I'm not happy here, one awful neighbour that cant call the bylaw office on me quick enough for every little thing, which I find out is one of the reasons my wife was unhappy!! youd think she would sit down and have a serious talk about moving or something before she did this though. I suspect that its just more of her lies or paranoid narcissism. I don't know.

but now I am angry to say the least.

my lawyers are working on the financials and have begun the separation process. striking hard and fast seems to be working good for me so far.

this morning I went to the school with the court order in hand as a preventative measure and that nobody is alarmed or any conflict occurs when I go to pick up my son on Thursday. I'm pleased to report he is back in school again today and seems to be enjoying himself. I didn't see him, and I don't want to interrupt his day so I will wait til Thursday.

its going to be impossible to lie to him as she has done. he deserves to know the truth but yet for some reason I cannot understand even the court wants me to refrain from telling him about the separation, leaving me with only telling him that we are separated.

I come from a broken home and nothing made me angrier and distrustful than all the lies I was told. I was kept in the dark and lied to by everyone and I resented that a lot. It left a lasting impression on me and I NEVER wanted to have a child that would go through that. you's think that having a child at 40 years of age with a woman youd been with for almost 20 would be a safe bet that you would remain together..

well... I lost that bet, and so did my son. All because his mother is going mental or whatever is wrong with her.

its tragic. I didn't deserve it, and my son certainly didn't deserve it. she thinks she loves him and wouldn't hurt him but that's exactly what she did. I can never forgive that.


----------



## Tobyboy

Just curious......where was your wife staying at after all?


----------



## Sad Man

Tobyboy said:


> Just curious......where was your wife staying at after all?



found out through the court documents that she went to the womans shelter that I suspected and linked to earlier in this thread. In some of the documents it just said "womans shelter" but in the fine print of one where she was asking for custody she claimed that she had the support of the one I named.

update now, he just face timed me again, this call went good. Told me he got me a birthday present etc.. he also divulged that he is staying at a local hotel which she either used his money to secure or the shelter has made some arrangements for it.

that's information I wanted to know but also didn't want to know.


----------



## Nucking Futs

sad man said:


> found out through the court documents that she went to the womans shelter that i suspected and linked to earlier in this thread. In some of the documents it just said "womans shelter" but in the fine print of one where she was asking for custody she claimed that she had the support of the one i named.
> 
> Update now, he just face timed me again, this call went good. Told me he got me a birthday present etc.. *he also divulged that he is staying at a local hotel which she either used his money to secure or the shelter has made some arrangements for it.*
> 
> that's information i wanted to know but also didn't want to know.


do not go there!


----------



## Sad Man

pretty hard not to, but I can use logic over emotion I think at this stage.


----------



## Affaircare

So it's not a lovely house with his own room like you have to offer, but your son does have a roof over his head, and to some degree you can ascertain that he is relatively safe. 

At this point, any and all interaction with her needs to be either IN WRITING (so you can produce it as evidence in a court of law), with a witness present (who can testify you were not violent), or recorded. 

Now people get all goofed up about recording, so let's assume that your state is a two-party consent state--which is the more strict law. So what you do is that *any time that you are in her presence* you have your phone on record, you hold it out in front of you so it's obvious, and you say _"I am recording this interaction for both our safety. As one party to this interaction I give my consent to record. If you speak to me, that will be you giving your consent to record. If you don't want to be recorded, please do not respond to me at this time."_ That's it. 

Either she speaks--which is consent of both parties and the video would then be admissible in court as proof that you behaved good and she didn't--or she doesnt' speak in which case she can't cuss you out, ask for money, or attempt to keep the child from you. Either way is a win because in both recordings you would be visually and audibly proving that you are peaceful, non-violent, and safe around her.

Does this make sense? She has built this entire scheme going to the women's shelter on the premise that you are a scary guy and she "doesn't feel safe" around you. So I know it's hard to imagine, but there is a great likelihood that she is going to try to tempt you into some sort of reaction so she can say, "See? He's unsafe!" and then get a restraining order and force you out! If you are wise, though, and only interact with her in writing, then you can prove who started stuff and who didn't....who was patient and who wasn't...who was thinking of the best interests of the child and who wasn't, etc. If you must see her in person, ALWAYS have a witness and/or record it, because once you're accused, it is difficult to "prove you were gentle" but if you have a witness and a recording... well you CAN prove it! Best is never meeting face-to-face, but if something occurs where you must, always have as neutral a third party there as possible (a neighbor, someone from church, etc.) and ALWAYS record. Just hold it out like I said, and from a legal point of view it should be okay.


----------



## Sad Man

very early on in this I ran and bought a Sony voice recorder thing because if I wanted to record the face time conversations I'm pretty sure I couldn't use my phone. Since that day Ive kept it in my pocket at all times and ready to go.

In the judges order he restricted our interactions to email and text messaging just to play it safe I guess?

If I see her you can bet my phone will be out and so will my recorder. Ill be holding it out in front of me like someone brandishing a crucifix to ward off a vampire.

and yes, I'm kinda happy that my son is in not a bad place with a nice pool and a waterslide, but I still have so many questions.


edit: and I forgot to use it today for the facetime conversation. and for the first one that kept hanging up on me that was the day I bought it and I forgot to get an SD card for it so I was unable to record.


----------



## Sad Man

and by the way, I got my first lawyer bill today...

my retainer is all used up and then add another grand to it. So I have to pay that, plus top up the 3500 retainer.


..yeah..


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Sad Man said:


> Thanks for the sound advice and support. As silly as it is coming from strangers, its also comforting coming from strangers as well.
> 
> the house is in both our names, we purchased it together, and she or I can force the sale of the house, or one buys out the other.
> 
> I really have to analyze the numbers to see if I can afford it. all in all if I have to I guess it will get sold which irks me as my son is the third generation to live in this house and 6th generation for the neighbourhood. I really hate to be the guy that messed it all up.
> 
> at the same time I'm not happy here, one awful neighbour that cant call the bylaw office on me quick enough for every little thing, which I find out is one of the reasons my wife was unhappy!! youd think she would sit down and have a serious talk about moving or something before she did this though. I suspect that its just more of her lies or paranoid narcissism. I don't know.
> 
> but now I am angry to say the least.
> 
> my lawyers are working on the financials and have begun the separation process. striking hard and fast seems to be working good for me so far.
> 
> this morning I went to the school with the court order in hand as a preventative measure and that nobody is alarmed or any conflict occurs when I go to pick up my son on Thursday. I'm pleased to report he is back in school again today and seems to be enjoying himself. I didn't see him, and I don't want to interrupt his day so I will wait til Thursday.
> 
> its going to be impossible to lie to him as she has done. he deserves to know the truth but yet for some reason I cannot understand *even the court wants me to refrain from telling him about the separation,* leaving me with only telling him that we are separated.
> 
> I come from a broken home and nothing made me angrier and distrustful than all the lies I was told. I was kept in the dark and lied to by everyone and I resented that a lot. It left a lasting impression on me and I NEVER wanted to have a child that would go through that. you's think that having a child at 40 years of age with a woman youd been with for almost 20 would be a safe bet that you would remain together..
> 
> well... I lost that bet, and so did my son. All because his mother is going mental or whatever is wrong with her.
> 
> its tragic. I didn't deserve it, and my son certainly didn't deserve it. she thinks she loves him and wouldn't hurt him but that's exactly what she did. I can never forgive that.


The judge gave you a gag order?


----------



## Sad Man

the judges order has this clause in it:

"communication between the parties regarding (my sons name) shall be by email or text message, and both parties are to refrain from abusive or harassing language or behaviour, and specifically are to avoid speaking to (my sons name) about the conduct of the other party."

the way I read that is I cant even tell him what's going on really.

on top of all that, my lawyer has gone insane and I was originally quoted $3000-$3500 for the first 10 days and now have billed me more than double that at $8K!

I have managed to pay the $8K but they want another $3500 retainer before they lift a finger on my case again. If I don't pay in one week they file motion to drop me. If I don't continue they say wife will file motions alleging violence to get restraining order on me which would make me have to leave the home.

Today was supposed to be a happy day as I got everything nice and ready at home for my sons return tomorrow afternoon.

Instead all I can think about is giving up and not throwing another $3500 down the hole to watch it disappear at double the speed I was originally quoted. I might as well just pack up my things and walk away and wait for the foreclosure. I can buy a trailer and live on family property in the bush with the money I have left. If I keep throwing it to the lawyer I will end up without that option too.

I'm done. theres no way out of this for me.


----------



## Mr The Other

Sad Man said:


> the judges order has this clause in it:
> 
> "communication between the parties regarding (my sons name) shall be by email or text message, and both parties are to refrain from abusive or harassing language or behaviour, and specifically are to avoid speaking to (my sons name) about the conduct of the other party."
> 
> the way I read that is I cant even tell him what's going on really.
> 
> on top of all that, my lawyer has gone insane and I was originally quoted $3000-$3500 for the first 10 days and now have billed me more than double that at $8K!
> 
> I have managed to pay the $8K but they want another $3500 retainer before they lift a finger on my case again. If I don't pay in one week they file motion to drop me. If I don't continue they say wife will file motions alleging violence to get restraining order on me which would make me have to leave the home.
> 
> Today was supposed to be a happy day as I got everything nice and ready at home for my sons return tomorrow afternoon.
> 
> Instead all I can think about is giving up and not throwing another $3500 down the hole to watch it disappear at double the speed I was originally quoted. I might as well just pack up my things and walk away and wait for the foreclosure. I can buy a trailer and live on family property in the bush with the money I have left. If I keep throwing it to the lawyer I will end up without that option too.
> 
> I'm done. theres no way out of this for me.


This is a **** sandwich. It is tough, that is why you have to stick it out. Being tough does not mean being impervious or finding it easy, it means finding it life sappingly, spirit-crushingly hard, and then carrying on.

Your lawyer has taken advantage. You can either suck it up and pay him or give up. The money will seem trivial in a few years time.


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## C3156

Sad Man said:


> on top of all that, my lawyer has gone insane and I was originally quoted $3000-$3500 for the first 10 days and now have billed me more than double that at $8K!
> 
> I have managed to pay the $8K but they want another $3500 retainer before they lift a finger on my case again. If I don't pay in one week they file motion to drop me. If I don't continue they say wife will file motions alleging violence to get restraining order on me which would make me have to leave the home.
> 
> Today was supposed to be a happy day as I got everything nice and ready at home for my sons return tomorrow afternoon.
> 
> Instead all I can think about is giving up and not throwing another $3500 down the hole to watch it disappear at double the speed I was originally quoted. I might as well just pack up my things and walk away and wait for the foreclosure. I can buy a trailer and live on family property in the bush with the money I have left. If I keep throwing it to the lawyer I will end up without that option too.
> 
> I'm done. theres no way out of this for me.


I would demand to see all the billable hours on your case. To blow through your retainer and not even give you a call that more funds were required? Something is amiss.

One thing I have learned is that you need to manage your case AND your attorney yourself. It is a little more work, but will save you in the long run. Do all the leg work and only use your attorney as necessary to complete actions in or for court. Don't call or email them with every question as they will bill you accordingly. You will have to spend time doing all the research, but it will benefit you financially in the end. Plus you learn a thing or to as well.


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## Sad Man

I did get a very detailed bill that accounted for everything. I signed an agreement with them that I had to maintain a $3500 balance with them at all times. Today I gave them $46XX.XX which I thought would cover an overage of $1100 ish... right? My 3500 got eaten up, plus an extra 1100.

that meant 46XX would pay my bill and I would be back to having 3500 in reserve.,,

but nope! My bill was $7996, and I needed to give them the $46XX plus another 3500!!

I cant do it. My rope has run out


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## Affaircare

@Sad Man, 

Don't give up just yet. I get it--that big bill has you down and you could probably use that much lawyering 3 or 4 times over! But rather than giving up, why don't you go have a come-to-Jesus meeting with your attorneys? So far they have been able to get you your son back half the time and ordered by a judge, so it was worth it! 

But they also just as clearly took advantage of your situation. Yep I bet they can justify the big bill--a couple attorneys at $XXX hundreds (plural) per hour EACH working fast to file. So talk to them and explain you are willing and able to pay for what has to be done to continue with custody and divorce, but you ARE NOT willing to pay at nearly 3 times the estimated cost!! From this point forward, if something differs in price at all from their estimate, they need to call you and get approval to move forward FIRST. Propose a reasonable payment plan for the $8000 bill. Give them a $3500 balance/retainer, and tell them that from this point forward all work is done by a paralegal ($XX/hour instead of hundreds) or by you yourself. 

Sad, an attorney is just like a doctor...they'll bill you for every penny they can get! But they work FOR YOU...not the other way around. YOU are the boss and the client, and they are just providing a service. This will require you to do some research and be knowlegable on your own case, but in the end YOU are the one in charge of your court stuff. Okay? Don't let them "boss you around"--instead you tell them how it's going to be in a firm but polite way.


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## Sad Man

My lawyer has done me very well. I couldn't be happier with the work she has done. I thank her deeply for helping me so much. 

however she was as cold as ice today and obviously has no control over the price she must bill me. Its an expensive law firm but its the only one I could hire, all others were unable to help, some were not taking new clients for months for family law. These people jumped to help me and did their job well.

However that does not excuse the over 100% increase over the estimate. When asked all I got was the typical, "it took more hours, I had to go to court more.. etc" explanation. It became clear very quickly and without a doubt that they were not helping me anymore unless I gave another $3500. I have a little more than that I can give but that's it, it leaves me with nothing or any options at all. It means if I get ordered out of my home I cant even get a hotel room for one night, let alone feed myself.

If I surrender that money, how can I even try to look after my son?

if I'm forced out the best I can do is buy a cheap trailer and live on family property in the bush 20 miles out of town. I can go to a family camp where there is at least electricity, a wood stove, fridge, stove and microwave, but that's 70 miles out of town. Neither of which allow me to be a proper father to my son while he is in school. Those options work for me alone, not with him.

I think the best I can do at this time is ride this wave until it crashes into the beach. 

ive crunched the numbers on living in the house. I can make all the payments as they are and the mortgage, but I might have $40 left per month to eat.

I am screwed. 

this woman destroyed me, herself, my son, and worst of all; she destroyed my family.


----------



## Chuck71

Sad Man..... I TRULY feel for you. You got a raw deal. Have you spoke to your parents about

assisting any further? Maybe the destruction she wrought will give them reason to protect their

son and grandson. If it is a family home and family land, I'd think they'd be more apt to help.

As a poster already said, and said 110% correctly.... there is very little difference between a lawyer

and a prostitute. If there is any way possible, retain the lawyers and demolish your STBXW in court.

Pay what they ask. After the D is final.... (I don't know how this is handled in Canada) talk with

someone (?criminal attorney?) about these excessive charges. You may get some back, you may not.

Even if you did, the other attorney will take that for winning your case. Sad isn't it.

Unless you can get a MUCH cheaper lawyer..... you're kinda stuck with these.

If they drop you for non-payment, your STBXW will have a bulls-eye on your back.

She will get the home, you will be stuck paying 50% or more of the mortgage, and she brings in

her new feller, who gets to enjoy the amenities of YOUR home, and helps tuck YOUR son into bed at night.

While you are labeled a "bad man" who is slapped with an order of protection and supervised visitation

with your son.... and that may only be a few hours a week. You are in for the fight of your life

SM....... don't back down. If you do.... as you said, you will have nothing.

I'll be spinning my Rocky IV soundtrack this afternoon while working in the back yard.

Also..... Canada is very much equal rights for all... would there be agencies where you could apply

for legal aid help? Maybe paying on a sliding scale? Flip the genders, say you did what she did.

She doesn't have the cash for an attorney so..... how is she being represented?

And.... bet your farm she is being coached. If you examine bank records, she was slipping money

out for a LONG time.


----------



## Sad Man

Ive had a long talk with both my mother and father yesterday and they both think I'm throwing money down a bottomless lawyer hole.

I do have my fathers monetary support to buy the x out of her half of the home. that gives me the ability to provide a proper home for my son, even if it ends up being 50/50 permanently. I don't think she has that option open to her. As of the law now, neither can push the other out of the home, but one can force the other to sell, or to be bought out. so if I can keep up with the bills I can just barely get by. Its not really big enough to rent out one floor or the basement but it could be possible in a meager way.

legal aid (socialist lawyers provided by the tax payer) here in Ontario are only available if you make less than $13K/year, which means both of us are out. I'm sure her lawyer is provided or working pro-bono through the shelter house she ran to. I suspect theyre footing the bill for the hotel shes in, or that's being donated or something like that.

of course there are no such places for men.

My saving grace is I have never been violent or abusive to them in any way, although she claims I emotionally and verbally abused her because I called her a liar. Yes, that's what they said in court.

I don't think they can get a restraining order on me because if they could, it would have happened already. I have no history or violence or criminal record. I have had some skirmishes with the law, but nothing that ever amounted to anything except a "fight" with a bad neighbour (not physical).

my guns are all gone. sold or removed from my access and home.

so the restraining order/threat of getting thrown out of my home may just be my lawyers trying to scare me. or, they may be real, I don't know. 

for now I'm going to enjoy the next 5 nights with my son. I'm washing his bed sheets now and making his room all nice and neat for his return. I will see how I feel after this well deserved time with him.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Were you able to verify for sure that she is actually at a shelter, is there some kind of proof of this? I have had my doubts. 

Glad you will finally get to see your son.


----------



## Nucking Futs

3Xnocharm said:


> Were you able to verify for sure that she is actually at a shelter, is there some kind of proof of this? I have had my doubts.
> 
> Glad you will finally get to see your son.





Sad Man said:


> I'm sure her lawyer is provided or working pro-bono through the shelter house she ran to. I suspect theyre footing the bill for *the hotel shes in*, or that's being donated or something like that.


----------



## Sad Man

3Xnocharm said:


> Were you able to verify for sure that she is actually at a shelter, is there some kind of proof of this? I have had my doubts.
> 
> Glad you will finally get to see your son.



Thanks,, yes she went to the shelter I referenced earlier in the thread. It was mentioned in court that she was in a shelter, later in some other court documents it identified which one it was.

She claimed emotional and verbal abuse in court. I can assure you if what Ive said to her over 25 years is considered abuse, then she is more than guilty of the exact same thing.

I swear though, I doubt Ive raised my voice more than 5 times to her over 25 years, and Ive never even come close to threatening her or implying anything violent towards her or my son.

I have yelled at my son quite loudly at times, but never in a threatening way, just as a Father typically can yell.

She wasted the resources of this shelter and continues to do so.

One of our mutual friends spoke with her on Sunday and told her to smarten up because she is in no way an "abused woman/wife" 

Shes just using that as a way out.

PS, I'm pretty sure she was in the shelter itself and now is being temporarily housed in a hotel by that same organization, now that they figured out that I am no threat to anybody thanks to the court. I do strongly suspect they tried to get a restraining order on me initially and failed due to no just cause, only her own paranoia instilled into her by her "friends" and toxic co-workers.

essentially a bunch of hens sticking their nose into my family.


----------



## Chuck71

Sad Man said:


> Ive had a long talk with both my mother and father yesterday and they both think I'm throwing money down a bottomless lawyer hole.
> 
> I do have my fathers monetary support to buy the x out of her half of the home. that gives me the ability to provide a proper home for my son, even if it ends up being 50/50 permanently. I don't think she has that option open to her. As of the law now, neither can push the other out of the home, but one can force the other to sell, or to be bought out. so if I can keep up with the bills I can just barely get by. Its not really big enough to rent out one floor or the basement but it could be possible in a meager way.
> 
> legal aid (socialist lawyers provided by the tax payer) here in Ontario are only available if you make less than $13K/year, which means both of us are out. I'm sure her lawyer is provided or working pro-bono through the shelter house she ran to. I suspect theyre footing the bill for the hotel shes in, or that's being donated or something like that.
> 
> of course there are no such places for men.
> 
> *So much for equal rights huh? It's the same way in the States.*
> 
> My saving grace is I have never been violent or abusive to them in any way, although she claims I emotionally and verbally abused her because I called her a liar. Yes, that's what they said in court.
> 
> I don't think they can get a restraining order on me because if they could, it would have happened already. I have no history or violence or criminal record. I have had some skirmishes with the law, but nothing that ever amounted to anything except a "fight" with a bad neighbour (not physical).
> 
> my guns are all gone. sold or removed from my access and home.
> 
> so the restraining order/threat of getting thrown out of my home may just be my lawyers trying to scare me. or, they may be real, I don't know.
> 
> for now I'm going to enjoy the next 5 nights with my son. I'm washing his bed sheets now and making his room all nice and neat for his return. I will see how I feel after this well deserved time with him.


One would think.... in a "socialist" country, one would have safeguards against this.

If you can buy her out, have custody 50 /50..... and from what you said, would not have to

pay her CS..... what else is there to fight over?

If the shelter is temp, as in a month, and she doesn't have a guy on the side, she will drag her

pathetic a$$.... back home. How long do D take in your area, a year?

Shame that if you have a wanker between your legs, you are more than likely to get shafted in

court, especially if you have kids.


----------



## TaDor

@Chuck71 : Canada is not much more "socialist" than the USA. We spend on weapons and military (that is still socialist) and they spend on healthcare.


----------



## TaDor

@Sad Man :
It seems very obvious your wife is having an affair - has been for months. She has turned into an enemy.
I guess you're not in a major city to have so few legal options in terms of hiring a lawyer.

With my experince dealing with the legal system and talking /knowing a few lawyers - I am guessing they are pretty much the same up there as they are in the USA. Most of them don't care. They do work, they bill you. Some of them will rip-you off like any other industry. I think the rate and amonut of work of 10 days JUST to file is crazy. Why?

When it comes to filing for divorce or what-not. The forms are the SAME. They likely have a template like anyone else. They only fill in YOUR NAME, INFO. Maybe a page or two about your case (depending what it is). Then they file it at the court house. The filing fees are likely about $100~300. Unless there is a whole lot of mess going on that requires them to return to the court house 5 times on your behalf - you're being ripped off. Note: When a lawyer goes to the court house for the day, he is likely filing paperwork for 2~6 clients - as it would be stupid to go back to the office and return to the court house.

So off the top of my head, maybe 8~10 hours of work @ $200 = $1600~2000 worth of work. I don't know your rate. And yes, they should have notified you about this. I've been over-charged for tech work, and I refused to pay anything. As I said "Give me $400 worth of work to see where the project is heading and your skills" - I get back a $2000 bill over a weekend. I replied "I did not authroize that work" - and questions he asked about things finally showed he didn't know what he was talking about.

You'll need to do some legal legwork your self. In the USA, that means looking at court records yourself. But since your situation is already a mess - with your wife taking away your child, you do need a lawyer.
If you both DON'T have lawyers - then you both have equal footing to represent yourselves. But that doesn't mean you can't learn some law.

I'm NOT a lawyer. But I have friends who did work for a lawfirm who gave me templates. They worked with me to fill in the information. Because of my income - I was able to file for free since I did not have a lawyer. I had to do some homework and learn how things worked. So with what little I learned, I filed and got what I needed. Also my wife couldn't afford a lawyer herself and knew nothing of the legal system.

She did eventually get a lawyer she met at a courthose and we had made up and started reconcilation. She was making weekly payments to him. But it seemed odd. So I went to the court house and found out he was LYING about doing work for her. She stopped paying him. For over a year - she would get a letter "you have a court date - but I will be there on your behalf, so don't show up. But make your payment". This happened 4~5 times. There was no court dates and she still wasn't paying him!

When you fire a lawyer, they are supposed to give you the work and files. But since you "owe them money" - they will likely hold onto what little they have actually done.

For $8000 in 10 days, you should have already seen a judge and have a status on seeing your son. Something... anything.


----------



## Chuck71

TaDor said:


> @Chuck71 : Canada is not much more "socialist" than the USA. We spend on weapons and military (that is still socialist) and they spend on healthcare.


Margaret Thatcher “The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.”


----------



## Sad Man

if its an affair its an emotional online one, but obviously that's about to change.

I have my boy home now, first time.

He seems different, distant, not as happy and carefree as he used to be. Happy to be home with me but I have no idea what hes been fed for 2 weeks now. Hes coming around just in the past few hours but it should never be this way. I will never forgive her for what she has done to him and us.

even at the school theyre treating me strange, I'm sure its known amongst them that she went to a shelter and they think I am some evil wife beater. 

really sad how everything is biased and people are making their opinions known to me without even knowing anything about it.

its making me want to move away from it all.

tador, I have seen a judge. I did get an emergency ruling that brought him home to me on a 5 day pattern of exchange with my X.

also, I don't owe them. they are paid up. they want another 3500 to keep going and as of today I think I'm going to give it to them. That will get a bunch of stuff taken care of and from there I can work it with some help and do it myself.


----------



## Sad Man

just a quick note, as I write this my boy is sleeping peacefully in my bed and insisted on snuggling with me last night because he missed me so much.

I'm going to have to wake him for school but I don't want to. I'm sure hes so happy to be home.

thanks to everyone who has helped during this awful time. the support and advice are great,

its not over by a longshot, but this time I have with him together is priceless. I look forward to the next days I have with him over the weekend, and its Thanksgiving in Canada, so I'm so happy to be with him now.

I will be continuing with my lawyer for the future as best I can.

edit: as of last night my x is texting me saying she misses him, how is he, etc... Shes getting her first taste of how I felt all this time. Not even, because she has to follow court order I paid and fought for, I didn't have anything! No phone calls, no visits, no knowing he would be back in 5 days etc.. I hope this pains her very much.


----------



## Chuck71

Your son needs to de-stabilize from the environment your STBXW placed him in. Document the times

you tried to seek out his well being as other posters have said. Maybe...... maybe text her once

and say -he is fine- And leave it at that. You talk through your attorney now. She is a bit nervous

because.... she is now having to battle you.... on an even playing field. Sad Man.... I like the fact you

have decided to be rid of her, just on the grounds of taking your son away for that period of time.

I don't have kids but.... I'd like to say that is all it would take for me as well. Chances are she has

some guy "in her sights, if not already." To this day I do not know if my XW cheated or not but 

walking out on the M for several weeks, was enough for me. That's been five years ago.

Be very nice and polite around people at school......even ask "Maam is there anything wrong?"

God knows the BS your STBXW has told. Eventually you will hear about it. Always remember...... do not

take much stock in how others view you, IF you know in your heart you are doing the right thing for

you and your son. Those people do not pay your lights, gas, mortgage... so to hell with 'em.

Enjoy father / son time. Where will the child swap be, after school? If you have to meet her.... VAR

or meet right in front of the police station.


----------



## Sad Man

VAR on my person at all times.

There will be no interaction yet until next Sunday. Until then its just drop him off at school and she will pick him up, or vice versa.

next Sunday she is to return him to me at noon. I will be happy to meet at the police station or whatever, but that might scare him. Not sure I want her to come here.

any of her stuff that's got in my way Ive just been throwing into one room, I am done with her.


----------



## TaDor

Your son is hurting because of her actions. So she could be "happy". DO NOT TRUST HER. Calling the police, sucking up $10,000+ of your money. Taking your kid away.

Always be calm. VAR when on the phone with her - if she calls. (or if for some reason you need to talk to her). You never know when she may admit to her infidelity - by accident or on purpose.

Gotta get her stuff out of your house. Did your lawyer okay that?

Be strong.


----------



## Sad Man

the court order restricts all interaction between us to email and text message.

I know everyone thinks infidelity but I cant find any evidence of it or does anyone else who knows her or has contact with her.

I'm not defending her by any means. I'm very very suspicious and willing to accept it, at least then her actions would make sense. Right now she just seems to have gone crazy. Many people think menopause/change of life time coupled with exhaustion.

but we may never know. many many symptons were there.


----------



## Affaircare

#1 - while your son is there, just mindfully enjoy his presence. As your court order says, no badmouthing the other parent. I do believe the day will come that he will ask you what happened and I think it would be wise to come up with an HONEST but non-spiteful way of relaying what happened.

#2 - As soon as possible, please literally document every time you tried to contact or arrange for contact while he was gone. I mean, print out the screenshots and get that gathered together now. 

#3 - it is reasonable to put her stuff neatly into boxes, place those boxes neatly in the garage, and tell her she has until ___ day to either remove the stuff or you will donate it all to Goodwill. It is NOT your problem if she has no place to put it--she can rent a storage unit if she has to. You are not her free storage! She must arrange when she is coming to pick it up, and you MUST arrange for the entire event to be recorded and have witnesses on site to testify that you did not speak with her or interact with her in any way. She does NOT have permission to go into the house--only to retrieve the things in the boxes in the garage, and only at the date and time arranged. PERIOD. No deviation, not because you are mean or heartless, but because she has demonstrated that she will try to trap you and have you ARRESTED and torn away from your son!!

#4 - GOOD FOR YOU that you are continuing with your lawyer. Tell them up front you will give this one more deposit and you expect NO MORE misunderstandings about billing. You want to do everything yourself that you can, and if you need someone to help file something, you want a paralegal first and then before a lawyer bills you, you want them to call you for approval! PERIOD.

#5 - Ignore her texts about your son for now. And at some reasonable point in the future, arrange for him to have a regular text or face time when he is sitting at the dining room table, out in public (so there are no secrets). As an example, have him Skype with her after dinner but before homework... 

#6 - DO NOT have her come to the house to exchange. Because of her actions and her clear attempt to paint you as an abusive spouse, all meeting must be in a public place for your safety. YOUR safety and the safety of the child to protect you from her and her lies. She has CLEARLY demonstrated she is willing to lie in order to "get an upper hand" or a better legal deal! So if the police department scares your son, go to a McD's play land and do not interact with her. Send your son in to play and wave bye--she comes and gets your son FROM the play land. Or if you are a small town, you take him to school ... she picks him up from school. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCE do you have her ever come near you, and never speak to her at all without a VAR or phone video recording....AND a witness. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!!!


----------



## Sad Man

again he snuggled up to me all night and I loved it. I cant thank all the people who helped make that possible enough. Everybody had a hand in it, from the advice ive received here, to my family, to the judge and to my lawyer. They all made this happen.

I woke up this morning early (5am) from a bit of a nightmare, still wondering if all this is real.

as mad as I am, I am still troubled and saddened inside. 

thanks again for advice affaircare. I am having trouble envisioning the exchange. The first 2 will have been done with no contact via school, but next Sunday will be difficult with the emotional aspect. The surreal aspect of now being a broken family and my son being exchanged like some commodity or television dope deal. This type of thing should never even be happening to me and him.

all because this stupid b**** cant be a normal wife and mother and purposely destroyed the lives of not just herself and myself, but the lives of my son and our families.

it takes a real sick person to want to do that.


----------



## TaDor

In breakup situations like yours, when over the course of a few weeks - things went from "I LOVE YOU" to "I NEED SPACE" = affair.

Again, male-co-worker from work - going to the zoo with your STBXW and your kid *IS NOT NORMAL*. Why would he EVEN say they "kissed" unless he saw it? He's used to seeing mommy and daddy kiss. hence, it was not NORMAL for him to see it.

Up until she suddenly left - AND NEVER had that sit-down talk with you. Did she ever complained that you were not talking with her? Any issues before? Think about how you are? Were you ignoring her?
Sex? Was it okay(normal) until about 2 weeks before she left the family home?

You, like many of us betrayed husbands - ASKED our wives to GO TO counseling. To think about the marriage and what would happen to our children, and yet they still leave. They hate you/us. They don't care about your broken heart. 99% of the time = cheating. it will be shocking that it was not. They don't care about their kids either when they are in affair mode. My wife said "He will be okay". He wasn't, almost 2 years later and he is still "clingy" because of her actions. Some women have killed their kids to be with their APs. yuck.

(I forgot) - but if you have access to any of her phone records (that shows who she is calling / texting) and you see a number being used more than YOU (before the break up) - then that is likely your POSOM.

It kind of doesn't matter - other than wanting to keep the POSOM away from your kid and to know the truth. So you know which asshat broke up your family.

When you were looking at her FB (I bet you are still stalking it) - what other MALE employees are friended to her and is interacting with her? Likely he is single, because is GF/wife might have noticed by now. Looking at his profile - you may see # of friends and #of mutual friends (your wife would show up). If this is the case. See how many of his mutual friends matches up with your wife's mutual friends that are CO-WORKERS. Likely, they won't have many matchups.

"Right now she just seems to have gone crazy. Many people think menopause/change of life time coupled with exhaustion."
- cheaters in full fog mode, behave CRAZY. Sometimes they get worse. You're wife is likely going to be in the worse pile.
Unless she is smoking and has had a hysterectomy - I doubt she's going through menopause. Change of life is having a young toddler? These excuses are WAY out there compared to banging a guy name James from work who is all over her FB now.


----------



## Chuck71

Sad Man said:


> again he snuggled up to me all night and I loved it. I cant thank all the people who helped make that possible enough. Everybody had a hand in it, from the advice ive received here, to my family, to the judge and to my lawyer. They all made this happen.
> 
> I woke up this morning early (5am) from a bit of a nightmare, still wondering if all this is real.
> 
> as mad as I am, I am still troubled and saddened inside.
> 
> thanks again for advice affaircare. I am having trouble envisioning the exchange. The first 2 will have been done with no contact via school, but next Sunday will be difficult with the emotional aspect. The surreal aspect of now being a broken family and my son being exchanged like some commodity or television dope deal. This type of thing should never even be happening to me and him.
> 
> all because this stupid b**** cant be a normal wife and mother and purposely destroyed the lives of not just herself and myself, but the lives of my son and our families.
> 
> it takes a real sick person to want to do that.


Do the child exchange at any of the following:

designated area where your mother or father do the swap
child swap in person @ police station
CSIP @ school with administration nearby
@ your home when you are NOT present (parents, friend)

She will want to engage you, I promise you that. The typical trigger they try is to throw the

fact there is another guy in your face. In time, you will not give two schits about this..... but now

it may bother you. She knows how to push your buttons and she will try to utilize this to 

get a reaction out of you. Maybe enough to land your ass in jail. Then.... she gets the house and

sole custody.


----------



## Sad Man

UPDATE:

not much happening except her lawyer wasting my lawyer's time and my money with petty nonsense. Child exchange procedures, bills, etc..

oh but one more.. she was asking to come to the home to get more of her things with the police. I will not allow that to happen. I offered to box up her stuff and deliver it to a neutral location.. , I would put everything in boxes or if she wanted to make a list and I would do that.

that was still not good enough for her.

Sunday at noon I get my son back again for 5 nights, I look forward to it.


----------



## Chuck71

Sad Man said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> not much happening except her lawyer wasting my lawyer's time and my money with petty nonsense. Child exchange procedures, bills, etc..
> 
> oh but one more.. she was asking to come to the home to get more of her things with the police. I will not allow that to happen. I offered to box up her stuff and deliver it to a neutral location.. , I would put everything in boxes or if she wanted to make a list and I would do that.
> 
> that was still not good enough for her.
> 
> Sunday at noon I get my son back again for 5 nights, I look forward to it.


Yep...... (bills) She wants you to "pay her to leave"

Well the last time she came to the house with the police, they took your son..... maybe Sad Man

is just a bit......... skeptical. I know they have this in the US, not sure about Canada but

Box up everything of hers, take it to a storage unit (most in US are $1 first month, then $xx each after),

mail her (or hand to lawyer) the key and address, with contract stating when next payment is due.

This way she can not come inside your home. She wants to come to your home while your son

is there..... DO NOT trust her, she has something up her sleeve. Now.... before moving her items to a 

storage unit.... ask her to put in writing what she plans to take. Then move to storage everything you

are in agreement with, her taking. If there are items you want as well as her, let the lawyers do the 

bickering. And..... even if you move everything she has on the list.... she can still say -it is my marital home-

but............ have it in writing with lawyer, she can come over with police ONLY with three days notice

and you have to have another adult present (lawyer, mom or dad, female friend).

You need someone there who can verify what occurs. Have your VAR going. Personally.....

I would put a nanny cam in every damn room, hidden. Your STBXW is a slime and will stoop to any

level to met her agenda...... she's proven this already.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Chuck71 said:


> Yep...... (bills) She wants you to "pay her to leave"
> 
> Well the last time she came to the house with the police, they took your son..... maybe Sad Man
> 
> is just a bit......... skeptical. I know they have this in the US, not sure about Canada but
> 
> Box up everything of hers, take it to a storage unit (most in US are $1 first month, then $xx each after),
> 
> mail her (or hand to lawyer) the key and address, with contract stating when next payment is due.
> 
> This way she can not come inside your home. She wants to come to your home while your son
> 
> is there..... DO NOT trust her, she has something up her sleeve. Now.... before moving her items to a
> 
> storage unit.... ask her to put in writing what she plans to take. Then move to storage everything you
> 
> are in agreement with, her taking. If there are items you want as well as her, let the lawyers do the
> 
> bickering. And..... even if you move everything she has on the list.... she can still say -it is my marital home-
> 
> but............ have it in writing with lawyer, she can come over with police ONLY with three days notice
> 
> and you have to have another adult present (lawyer, mom or dad, female friend).
> 
> You need someone there who can verify what occurs. Have your VAR going. Personally.....
> 
> *I would put a nanny cam in every damn room, hidden. Your STBXW is a slime and will stoop to any
> 
> level to met her agenda......* she's proven this already.


Here's three examples of why you need cameras if she comes in the house. Btw, I knew about one of these, I was surprised how little time it took to find three examples.

Woman Frames Husband for Child Porn

Tampa woman convicted in plot to frame husband with child porn, fake bomb threats.

Toms River woman allegedly tried to frame husband with child porn, report says.


----------



## EleGirl

She has the legal right to come with the police to get her things. So you have no choice but to allow it.

You could still box her things up and have them by the front door or in the garage. You could even rent a storage room and move it all there. She could then do a quick look through the house, which she has a right to do. But at least that would limit her time at your place.

If she's coming over, make sure you secure things that are important to you... get them out of the house if you can.


----------



## Chuck71

Nucking Futs said:


> Here's three examples of why you need cameras if she comes in the house. Btw, I knew about one of these, I was surprised how little time it took to find three examples.
> 
> Woman Frames Husband for Child Porn
> 
> Tampa woman convicted in plot to frame husband with child porn, fake bomb threats.
> 
> Toms River woman allegedly tried to frame husband with child porn, report says.


Sad Man........ This is very true. Anytime a male is even suspected of these allegations, they 

are burned at the stake before anything goes to court. That is the very reason some females pull

this schit. Too many men have this -my W is a cheat but she would never do that- Seriously?????

Your STBXW should be seen as the most villainous human to ever walk this planet. 

Why am I so fervent about this? My doctorate is in the law enforcement field, but not street cop.

I see schit that would blow your mind, in a very sad way. Never underestimate your opponent. 

Better to be safe than sorry. In my D from 2012..... my then W threatened me with -I can make this 

really hard for you if I want- I smiled, left the room. Two nights later, "I have several aces 

up my sleeve, play dirty at your own peril." She backed down..... the main one was the fact

when her brother was convicted of a felony..... during trial he was to have no guns in his possession.

He had one hidden in my house..... his fingerprints were on it, as was hers. That would have sent her

to prison for a lengthy stay.


----------



## Sad Man

She refused to do the child swap at the nearby park because there are too many trees blocking her view of me 400' away on the other side of the park.. presumably because I'm not safe to be that close to..

..but now she wants to come here, without the police but I neutral third party?

nope, I want to box up her things and bring to neutral.


----------



## Chuck71

Swap @ police station................ notify the police NOW and your attorney.

she will keep your son if you do not comply..... this is scripted. DO NOT ENGAGE


----------



## Affaircare

@Sad Man, 

Let me summarize for you. Check with your attorney, but I doubt you have the legal right to deny her entrance to the house to get her things. I mean, you legally can not deny her. HOWEVER, you can take steps to protect yourself prior to her arrival. 

1) Pack all of her stuff into boxes, neatly, and either stack them in the garage or put them in a storage unit. That way she can move the boxes out of the garage OR go pick them up at the storage unit, and she does not need to linger in the house. (In other words, you have given her access to her things without duress). 

2) Take many, many photographs of every room in your house as they are after you've packed her stuff. The reason you do this is to have evidence that NONE of her things were left behind and to prove that this is how you had things prior to her coming to "pick up her things."

3) Place security cameras on the outside of the house and nanny cams inside the house. 

4) DO NOT agree to only having a neutral third party! This could very well be the person who coached her on leaving and stealing your son--who is now coaching her on how to get a restraining order by setting you up!! If she won't bring them, you call the police and have them there as an escort FOR YOU and a witness of what did and did not occur!! 

In addition, you call your own neutral third party witnesses to be there for you, and I mean neutral too. No parents or siblings--call a neighbor and a guy from church to just witness what you do and what she does. The witnesses and the cops also should watch her every move. If her things are all neatly boxed in the garage or at a storage unit, even if she shows up, she can walk through the house, ask for "this or that" thing (that maybe isn't hers but she just wants it), and it will all be witnessed by photos beforehand, cops, witnesses, and you recording it on nanny cam or your cell phone. 
__________

The ideal situation would be to box her things at put them in a storage unit, then mail her attorney the keys. She can then go to the unit and get her boxes and/or furniture and the two of you do not need to see each other or be anywhere near each other. She can do a "walk through" with your witnesses and the police and you tagging behind to request things be boxed and sent...not "taking them that day." And they you can take those items to the storage unit once you've boxed them. 

You may need to look at the order you received from the judge to see if you have "exclusive use of the house." If you do, that means she may still have a claim to half the equity, but she has NO CLAIM to be on the property or in the home, and it's okay for you to change the locks and tell her she can't come to your house. SHE can lock you out of her property and tell you that you can't come to her house! So see if that "exclusive use of home" is in the order. If it is, that is the legal part that means the house is yours to live on privately and she can't just come and go when she wants. If it is not, then that is something you'll want to have a judge order as soon as possible.

Finally, if she does come to the house with the police and enters the house, allow the witnesses and cops to follow her and you stay in the house but FAR FROM HER PRESENCE. You want to be sure it's clear you are not near her, harassing her, controlling her, or abusing her in any way shape or form. However, at the same time, make sure she's not moving things, touching things, or removing things. My guess is that she will say things to try to get you to react in anger...or she will try to plant something...or she will try to take something of value just to make you mad. 

Don't give her the opportunity to "go through your things" but instead, treat it like an exchange: "Here are your things, you have free access to them. Here are the things that were ours that we agreed you could have. And I am willing to let you do a walk through that is witnessed to request other things, but you will not be removing those things today."


----------



## honcho

Sad Man said:


> She refused to do the child swap at the nearby park because there are too many trees blocking her view of me 400' away on the other side of the park.. presumably because I'm not safe to be that close to..
> 
> ..but now she wants to come here, without the police but I neutral third party?
> 
> nope, I want to box up her things and bring to neutral.


If she comes to the house to do kid exchange she will just walk in and start taking things and you won't be able to stop her. She's setting you up for a scene and trouble. 

Unless you got in the separation/divorce paperwork that she vacated the premises you legally can't stop her entering the home. She will show up at some point with cops demanding her stuff. This is why you should have it packed up and ready to go to lessen the dramatics. 

My crazy ex pulled this stunt early one morning showing up with the cops. Her lawyer had put in the papers that she was vacating the premises to get off the financial hook of the monthly expenses of the house so when the cops showed up, I pulled out the paperwork and she couldn't set foot on the property. The police asked about retrieving items and I opened the garage door, showed them the big pile of boxes and told them to start there and good luck. 

My ex wanted the dramatics and a big scene, not the Christmas ornaments which she got.


----------



## Sad Man

EleGirl said:


> She has the legal right to come with the police to get her things. So you have no choice but to allow it.
> 
> You could still box her things up and have them by the front door or in the garage. You could even rent a storage room and move it all there. She could then do a quick look through the house, which she has a right to do. But at least that would limit her time at your place.
> 
> If she's coming over, make sure you secure things that are important to you... get them out of the house if you can.



Ive taken all the important papers, or copies of them etc.. and keep them locked up in my truck, which is locked in the garage, and I do have outdoor security cameras.

The court order restricted contact to email and text, that's my position on why she cant come here to the house for now. I can guarantee they tried to get restraining order on me claiming I was a threat (I cant stress how much of lie that is, I am no threat!) and they were unable to, so they may be trying to amplify their possibility of that happening.

If she were to show up with the police I would refuse to leave the house and show them the court order about no contact.

I would love to start boxing up her stuff and have it ready to go, and yes, all the ideas below are great ones!


----------



## Chuck71

Sad Man said:


> Ive taken all the important papers, or copies of them etc.. and keep them locked up in my truck, which is locked in the garage, and I do have outdoor security cameras.
> 
> The court order restricted contact to email and text, that's my position on why she cant come here to the house for now. I can guarantee they tried to get restraining order on me claiming I was a threat (I cant stress how much of lie that is, I am no threat!) and they were unable to, so they may be trying to amplify their possibility of that happening.
> *
> If she were to show up with the police I would refuse to leave the house and show them the court order about no contact.*
> 
> I would love to start boxing up her stuff and have it ready to go, and yes, all the ideas below are great ones!


You got this!!!! Now..... watch out for anything at the child swap. Better yet.... make the police station

the child swap every time. If she refuses to give him up then, you have the paperwork and

she will answer to a judge. Her wanting to come to your house without the police..... OMG

Pretty deliberate ain't she.....


----------



## Affaircare

@Sad Man, 

As always just check with your lawyer for a basic "okay" or "not okay" but if you want to start packing her stuff, do it. Tonight. Right now. Pack it and store it in the garage or somewhere that you are able to secure it and lock it up, and get it out of YOUR life and YOUR home! 

You want it to appear as if you are not delaying or refusing to give her access to her things, so I'd say the sooner you can get it packaged and out, the better. And hey--err on the side of generosity because nothing personal but it's only stuff. If you can say, "It's all nicely stacked in the 2nd garage. Let's arrange a day and time to do the exchange. I will have both police and neutral third parties at the house as witnesses, and I will be recording. The house and all other garages will be locked and I will have the key. Anything additional that you want to request, you can create a list, and assuming I agree, I'd be happy to pack it. You will not be walking through the house removing things." If this passes your lawyer's "okay"...then that's the plan you pursue. 

Again, look in your order for the term "Exclusive Use of the House" (or home). If that is in there, you are good, because that's the judge ordering who gets to live in the house and consider it their private residence. If it's not in there, I'd just say that you do have the "only contact is via email or text" so that does offer some protection, but usually the police will not get in the middle of trying to interpret a court order. 

So have everything READY...and then she has no excuse or need to "go through the house" and pick things.


----------



## honcho

Sad Man said:


> Ive taken all the important papers, or copies of them etc.. and keep them locked up in my truck, which is locked in the garage, and I do have outdoor security cameras.
> 
> The court order restricted contact to email and text, that's my position on why she cant come here to the house for now. I can guarantee they tried to get restraining order on me claiming I was a threat (I cant stress how much of lie that is, I am no threat!) and they were unable to, so they may be trying to amplify their possibility of that happening.
> 
> If she were to show up with the police I would refuse to leave the house and show them the court order about no contact.
> 
> I would love to start boxing up her stuff and have it ready to go, and yes, all the ideas below are great ones!


If she would have asked for a restraining order she would have gotten one. Nobody gets denied when they first get asked for and the courts always error on the side of caution. They get granted on a temporary basis till a full hearing can be heard. 

The cops won't care about the only contact via text/email, they will ask you to leave or not talk to each other. You stay in one room while she is in another etc etc. Again her whole notion is for you to make a scene, argue with cops and your going to play right into her game. 

You best bet and safest is to have the stuff ready to leave and either in the garage or right next to the front door to diffuse the situation and also get your lawyer on the offensive asking for a full accounting of property she wants before marital possessions start to leave the domicile. Once gone she can claim your hiding something and create all sorts of needless drama and useless lawyer meeting etc etc. 

Your underestimating your opponent.


----------



## Sad Man

2.5 hours to pickup time at the Mcdonalds.

I'm trying to arrange an observer. I will have my phone recording the whole thing on video as well as my voice recorder at the ready. Ive also arranged a neighbour to keep a close eye on the house in case anything is attempted here in my absence.

I will be getting some boxes today and start boxing things up while my son is at school this week. I don't want him to watch me doing that. 

When I speak with my lawyer again (soon) I will discuss changing the locks, removal of her personal things etc..

I like the idea of the mini storage and mailing her the keys. I want her far away from me for protection/self preservation reasons.

I am concerned she will concoct some BS story about how todays hostage exchange occurs. 

Why does being a loving Father and husband end up with me paying $11,500.00 on a lawyer and have to exchange my son in a public place like some sort of half -a**ed television drug deal?

P.S. I'm looking forward to the extra closet space!


----------



## EleGirl

Sad Man said:


> Ive taken all the important papers, or copies of them etc.. and keep them locked up in my truck, which is locked in the garage, and I do have outdoor security cameras.
> 
> The court order restricted contact to email and text, that's my position on why she cant come here to the house for now. I can guarantee they tried to get restraining order on me claiming I was a threat (I cant stress how much of lie that is, I am no threat!) and they were unable to, so they may be trying to amplify their possibility of that happening.
> 
> If she were to show up with the police I would refuse to leave the house and show them the court order about no contact.
> 
> I would love to start boxing up her stuff and have it ready to go, and yes, all the ideas below are great ones!


Make sure that if she comes to get into the house, you do not allow her entry. And call the police. Tell them you need their protection from her. Since she is not living there, I you can probably change the locks. Check with your attorney.

Sorting the papers in your truck is a bad idea. That truck is community property. She has every right to ask for the keys and get anything out of it that she wants. If she asks, the police will get the keys from you.

Go store the papers at the home of a friend or family member. Or, go rent a small storage room. I rented a 5x5 room in a storage facility. I put copies of all legal & financial papers in it. For papers that were mine... like the title to my car, I stored the original in the room. I also moved all valuables to the room so that he could not sneak them out of the house. Made copies of all keys and kept those in the storage room too.


----------



## EleGirl

Sad Man said:


> 2.5 hours to pickup time at the Mcdonalds.
> 
> I'm trying to arrange an observer. I will have my phone recording the whole thing on video as well as my voice recorder at the ready. Ive also arranged a neighbour to keep a close eye on the house in case anything is attempted here in my absence.
> 
> I will be getting some boxes today and start boxing things up while my son is at school this week. I don't want him to watch me doing that.
> 
> When I speak with my lawyer again (soon) I will discuss changing the locks, removal of her personal things etc..
> 
> I like the idea of the mini storage and mailing her the keys. I want her far away from me for protection/self preservation reasons
> 
> I am concerned she will concoct some BS story about how todays hostage exchange occurs.


There is no reason that you cannot pack her stuff and move it to a storage unit. Make sure you take photos of her stuff that you pack. To prove that you gave it to her. When you give the keys to her attorney, or mail them to her with a signature required, make sure you indicate that if you forgot something she can submit a list of things she still wants through her attorney.



Sad Man said:


> Why does being a loving Father and husband end up with *me paying $11,500.00 on a lawyer *and have to exchange my son in a public place like some sort of half -a**ed television drug deal?


You know, sometimes life is just not fair. My divorce from my son's father cost me many times that. And that's from a man who was a serial cheater, physically violent and abusive to both me and our son. He kidnapped our son for the better part of a week and the courts did nothing. He constantly causes problems in court and got away with it.

Being a good spouse and parent does not always do much for a good person who makes the mistake of marrying a person like your wife or my ex. That's life.


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## Sad Man

OK, I picked up boxes today, lots. All perfect for this occasion.

I met at the mcdonalds. I brought an observer. I parked in the rear, as there were no other areas available. At 11:54 I sent her a text. It says" Send him out. Stay away from me."

she waited until 12:00 before she walked out with him. I jumped out of my truck with my phone recording video, and he came bolting across the parking lot to be with his Daddy. I never once looked at her.

We had a fun day after that and as I write this he is cuddled up beside me in my big chair. I love him so much.

I will never forgive her for destroying our family and primarily destroying his happiness.

PS. I know some of you will rag on me but I went on my first date Friday. Nice girl, smart, fun, great conversation, but I wasn't feeling the chemistry. Nothing to complain about, its just that I may not be ready for that.


----------



## Sad Man

EleGirl said:


> You know, sometimes life is just not fair.


I know, but I sure wish I could catch a break. As a product of a broken home and knowing first hand how awful it was I was bound and determined to never replicate that pain for another child, ever.

Youd think after being with the same woman for 17 years before having a child at the age of 40, and then being with her and him for another 7, that your home life is pretty well sorted out. 

Obviously it wasn't.

and there are no major contributing factors! minor complaints was the best I could get out of her, all stuff that was easily rectified, adjusted, or changed. That's what drives me a little nuts about this.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Sad Man said:


> OK, I picked up boxes today, lots. All perfect for this occasion.
> 
> I met at the mcdonalds. I brought an observer. I parked in the rear, as there were no other areas available. At 11:54 I sent her a text. It says" Send him out. Stay away from me."
> 
> she waited until 12:00 before she walked out with him. I jumped out of my truck with my phone recording video, and he came bolting across the parking lot to be with his Daddy. I never once looked at her.
> 
> We had a fun day after that and as I write this he is cuddled up beside me in my big chair. I love him so much.
> 
> I will never forgive her for destroying our family and primarily destroying his happiness.
> 
> PS. I know some of you will rag on me but I went on my first date Friday. Nice girl, smart, fun, great conversation, but I wasn't feeling the chemistry. Nothing to complain about, its just that *I may not be ready for that.*


You're not. And just as importantly, no innocent woman needs to be dragged into this huge pile of drama you're stuck in right now. Dig your way out first.


----------



## RandomDude

Sad Man said:


> I know, but I sure wish I could catch a break. As a product of a broken home and knowing first hand how awful it was I was bound and determined to never replicate that pain for another child, ever.
> 
> Youd think after being with the same woman for 17 years before having a child at the age of 40, and then being with her and him for another 7, that your home life is pretty well sorted out.
> 
> Obviously it wasn't.
> 
> *and there are no major contributing factors! minor complaints was the best I could get out of her, all stuff that was easily rectified, adjusted, or changed. That's what drives me a little nuts about this.*


Actually, you mentioned one on your OP, all began 7 years ago, the signs were very clear, and that INCLUDES her silence in regards to her issues.

I wonder if it began even earlier, but only you know that. You need to process this, take your time, think deep, and find out how you ended up with such a malicious woman, what signs you can be aware of in the future to protect yourself and your family. I don't know about you, but for me, every betrayal I suffered in my life, I "fixed" it by learning how to avoid it further, from learning how to pick up the red flags to avoiding certain people with bad vibes all together. 

Such knowledge may help you gain a measure of peace by giving you confidence and hope for the future. The pain is there along with the confusion. You need to process it. All this is not your fault, but it is your responsibility to learn from this.


----------



## sokillme

Sad Man said:


> I know, but I sure wish I could catch a break. As a product of a broken home and knowing first hand how awful it was I was bound and determined to never replicate that pain for another child, ever.
> 
> Youd think after being with the same woman for 17 years before having a child at the age of 40, and then being with her and him for another 7, that your home life is pretty well sorted out.
> 
> Obviously it wasn't.
> 
> and there are no major contributing factors! minor complaints was the best I could get out of her, all stuff that was easily rectified, adjusted, or changed. That's what drives me a little nuts about this.


I'm sorry man. That sad truth is nothing in life lasts. Even you won't. Take some time to morn and grieve and then move on. To everything there is a season.


----------



## Sad Man

Nucking Futs said:


> You're not. And just as importantly, no innocent woman needs to be dragged into this huge pile of drama you're stuck in right now. Dig your way out first.


that's probably sound advice, but I have to wonder if that still applies if she has her own recently split (like 6 months ago) drama?

or does that make it double not ready?

Perhaps that's why there was no chemistry (at least on my part)?


----------



## Sad Man

RandomDude said:


> Actually, you mentioned one on your OP, all began 7 years ago, the signs were very clear, and that INCLUDES her silence in regards to her issues.
> 
> I wonder if it began even earlier, but only you know that. You need to process this, take your time, think deep, and find out how you ended up with such a malicious woman, what signs you can be aware of in the future to protect yourself and your family. I don't know about you, but for me, every betrayal I suffered in my life, I "fixed" it by learning how to avoid it further, from learning how to pick up the red flags to avoiding certain people with bad vibes all together.
> 
> Such knowledge may help you gain a measure of peace by giving you confidence and hope for the future. The pain is there along with the confusion. You need to process it. All this is not your fault, but it is your responsibility to learn from this.



interesting. 

she just seemed to hang on to every little thing I ever did wrong like she was keeping score. When she did things I didn't like. we talked and put the matter to bed permanently. She never forgot every little thing and I mean little!

I think mostly her problem is the toxic coworkers who continually tell her how unhappy she is and sold her a picture of fake goods (because I heard all about their problems, and they weren't happy people) and her mother who always disliked me because I was never good enough for her daughter.

I'm not without fault, I am not a perfect fun loving, super person, but when the deck is stacked against you on so many angles its hard to prevail in the long run.

I will certainly use these betrayals to make me stronger but in the meantime I really want to kick ass. I just don't know how to do it with all the constraints I feel surround me.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Sad Man said:


> that's probably sound advice, but I have to wonder if that still applies if she has her own recently split (like 6 months ago) drama?
> 
> or does that make it double not ready?
> 
> Perhaps that's why there was no chemistry (at least on my part)?


Good God man, are you really such a glutton for punishment that you want to add another steaming pile of drama on top of your own heap?


----------



## Chuck71

Sad Man said:


> interesting.
> 
> *she just seemed to hang on to every little thing I ever did wrong like she was keeping score.* When she did things I didn't like. we talked and put the matter to bed permanently. She never forgot every little thing and I mean little!
> 
> I think mostly her problem is the toxic coworkers who continually tell her how unhappy she is and sold her a picture of fake goods (because I heard all about their problems, and they weren't happy people) and her mother who always disliked me because I was never good enough for her daughter.
> 
> I'm not without fault, I am not a perfect fun loving, super person, but when the deck is stacked against you on so many angles its hard to prevail in the long run.
> 
> I will certainly use these betrayals to make me stronger but in the meantime I really want to kick ass. I just don't know how to do it with all the constraints I feel surround me.


Scorecard dating just does not work. Scorecard M damn sure don't.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Sad Man, did you have fun on your date?


----------



## Sad Man

Date was OK, but it just felt like dinner out and conversation with a well educated person. It didn't feel sexual at all. Maybe for her but I just wasn't feeling it.

I'm boxing up my X's things now as best I can. Labelling, etc.. I will put them in the detached, heated garage so there can be no issues with the contents (bathroom stuff etc..)

Its heartbreaking. I don't know how we could be so far along and the worst was behind us. We had just made the last loan payment on a big consolidation loan and that would free up so much of our finances.

Why give up now? after all the struggles that we overcame??

We can only exist at a decent lifestyle as a couple. She will end up in some low rental crap place with my son growing up in a terrible environment and I will struggle to keep the lights on here trying to provide my son a good home in a decent area.

I'm so angry and sad at the same time! I want to ask her wtf she is thinking? How does she think this is better for any of us?


----------



## Affaircare

Sad Man said:


> ... she just seemed to hang on to every little thing I ever did wrong like she was keeping score. When she did things I didn't like. we talked and put the matter to bed permanently. She never forgot every little thing and I mean little!
> 
> *I think mostly her problem is the toxic coworkers who continually tell her how unhappy she is and sold her a picture of fake goods *(because I heard all about their problems, and they weren't happy people) and her mother who always disliked me because I was never good enough for her daughter.


 @Sad Man, 

The part I bolded above is probably moreso the case than you know. I've worked with people like this who are unhappy, bitter, spiteful people in their hearts, but rather than working on themselves and bettering themselves, they latch onto people and drag them down to their level to join them in their ****. I think somehow it makes them feel "less low" to bring someone else even lower than they are. 

The trouble that I see is that gradually the convince someone that they are miserable in their marriage (actually it's the toxic person who is miserable) and they convince someone that getting a divorce is wonderful and freeing (actually a divorce is sad and destructive) and they convince someone that life after divorce is happy and carefree (actually, everyone's lifestyle is GREATLY diminished and each spouse has all the cares and responsibilities now with no one to help shoulder the burdens). It's quite literally all lies, but of course the "convinced' person doesn't realize that until they go through it and discover that in real life, divorce is a death.


----------



## Chuck71

Affaircare said:


> @Sad Man,
> 
> The part I bolded above is probably moreso the case than you know. I've worked with people like this who are unhappy, bitter, spiteful people in their hearts, but rather than working on themselves and bettering themselves, they latch onto people and drag them down to their level to join them in their ****. I think somehow it makes them feel "less low" to bring someone else even lower than they are.
> 
> The trouble that I see is that gradually the convince someone that they are miserable in their marriage (actually it's the toxic person who is miserable) and they convince someone that getting a divorce is wonderful and freeing (actually a divorce is sad and destructive) and they convince someone that life after divorce is happy and carefree (actually, everyone's lifestyle is GREATLY diminished and each spouse has all the cares and responsibilities now with no one to help shoulder the burdens). It's quite literally all lies, but of course the "convinced' person doesn't realize that until they go through it and discover that in real life, divorce is a death.


QFT!!!!!! 

My XW was working with numerous toxic females when our DDay hit. Every single one was D,

had kids by different men, and bitter. Funny how DDay came about a year after she started there.

But in the end.... I am in a much better place. Yeah it gets lonely at times.... but there is a female

who does a few sleepovers a week. 

Sad Man.... in my course of study I counseled people with a GID (gender identity) disorder. 

It has been re-classified as Gender Dysphoria in the DSM-5. In almost every case....

this person is an introvert trying to fit in. There has to be a "fetish" for this to begin.

They go to chat rooms and talk with others who have this issue. There is a very strict hierarchy in these

rooms and meeting places (post-op, pre-op, tv, cd). The most bitter are the post-ops. They lord over

the rest and encourage others to "climb the ladder." The pre-ops do this as well.

Just as soon as the tv or cd advance "up" the ladder they are chastised and beaten down verbally.

-I'm more woman than you are- -You have to do more- These two groups promise a life of

roses, luxury, and leisure once you "become one of them." These people transition, alter their bodies,

and expect this at the finish line. What they were promised.... was not real, not even for the post-op

and pre-ops. Those two groups went through transition and it blew up in their face. They want to

convince others to, so it will blow up in their face too. Y'know.... misery loves company.

So what about the rich men standing at the door after they transition? They were not there.

Many of these live in an apartment, 4-6-8 roommates, trying to scrape by. Alcoholism and / or drug use

among this group is estimated at 75%. Suicide rates are 20%. Some studies indicate higher %.

Sad Man.... just like your STBXW..... she just wanted to fit in. And as AC added... it is pretty common.

When someone places their work life ahead of home life in a M with children.... the winds of discontent will blow.


----------



## Sad Man

very interesting Chuck. I think that's exactly it. Misery loves company.

My wife works with toxic co workers who are failures in many avenues of life. They have children from different Fathers than they are with and essentially are basket cases. My sons friends mothers are all the same way. They have kids from fathers they are no longer with etc.. and they are a good 10-15 years younger than my x is.

They have all been toxic to our marriage. Pure poison.

Instead of hanging around with people from successful marriages and families she chose to associate heavily with these failures.

This was not a recent revelation to me. I had mentioned to her exactly what we just talked about. She dismissed me as being angry and trying to control who her friends were.

I told her our family comes first, nobody else. She seemed to resent that when I reflect on that fact now.

my son today showed me an apartment that mommy and him will live in. Its the top floor of a crappy house in a not very good area. I wouldn't live there even when I was young and single.

So sad that my boy will suffer a crappy life because of idiotic co-workers and poisonous "friends".


----------



## sokillme

Sad Man said:


> very interesting Chuck. I think that's exactly it. Misery loves company.
> 
> My wife works with toxic co workers who are failures in many avenues of life. They have children from different Fathers than they are with and essentially are basket cases. My sons friends mothers are all the same way. They have kids from fathers they are no longer with etc.. and they are a good 10-15 years younger than my x is.
> 
> They have all been toxic to our marriage. Pure poison.
> 
> Instead of hanging around with people from successful marriages and families she chose to associate heavily with these failures.
> 
> This was not a recent revelation to me. I had mentioned to her exactly what we just talked about. She dismissed me as being angry and trying to control who her friends were.
> 
> I told her our family comes first, nobody else. She seemed to resent that when I reflect on that fact now.
> 
> my son today showed me an apartment that mommy and him will live in. Its the top floor of a crappy house in a not very good area. I wouldn't live there even when I was young and single.
> 
> So sad that my boy will suffer a crappy life because of idiotic co-workers and poisonous "friends".


Don't make excuses for her or project their crappiness on her. It's still her life and her choices. I could hang out with Harvey Weinstein all day long and I wouldn't act like him. I would probably kill him or at least try to destroy him but that is another story.


----------



## Sad Man

I'm going to need help to mentally deal with this. I'm tough as nails but this is really weighing on me. 

I'm an answer guy, and this problem isn't giving me answers and it probably never will. That flies directly against my personality.

I don't think she yet realizes the seriousness of this. She has been insulated by that moronic feminist cult shelter house she's staying at and I'm sure theyre paying for her lawyer etc.. and you can guarantee this aint their first rodeo.

I'm not a violent or dangerous person but I can understand how people could become that way.


----------



## Affaircare

Sad Man said:


> I'm going to need help to mentally deal with this. I'm tough as nails but this is really weighing on me.
> 
> I'm an answer guy, and this problem isn't giving me answers and it probably never will. That flies directly against my personality.


 @Sad Man, I want you to think of something. This is a lot like getting fired. When you get fired, the first thing you think is "WHY!!!???" as if there is an answer in the universe to which you'd say, "Oh yeah you're right, that is a good reason." There is no answer in the world that would actually be satisfactory. 

It's the same here. The idea that there's an answer to "WHY did you destroy our family?" is not realistic, because that answer truly does not exist. I mean if there was adultery, even then some people reconcile. If there was physical abuse (you hitting her) some people go to anger management and recover from that. And those are two pretty drastic examples! I don't hear anything nearly that drastic happening here, but I will also say that I've been around the block a time or two enough to know that I don't know what went on behind closed doors NOR do I know her side to the story. There is always another side to the story. 

In real life, the "whys" don't matter. In fact if anything, they make it worse because your thoughts are focused on the "whys" and they don't fix or even change anything! Okay, maybe there is a small amount of relief knowing "Aha, they did this horrible thing to me because they are mentally ill" and then being able to explain it to yourself inside your own head. But beyond explaining it to yourself, nothing changes. You'll still be a single father. Your family will still be broken apart. You will still be divorced.


----------



## Sad Man

there is certainly 2 sides of the story, always.

the only explanations I received that there was a problem brewing was that I was not being part of my sons life. That's a somewhat true statement if you just take it at that. Where the truth is though is that she was excluding me from participating in it. She made plans with everybody else and began to purposely exclude me. I personally believe a lot of that had to do with her smoking. She made it convenient for her to smoke with those other people but hid it from me.

Whether she made that decision consciously or not I don't know.


----------



## Chuck71

What is she smoking..... and I mean that literally. Sometimes the why is not important. My DDay

was five years ago next month. All I got was she was not happy, she dreaded coming home after

work, and did not want to be miserable the rest of her life. No this was never brought to the table.

Wasn't a couple weeks prior she was telling me how lucky she was to be with me, etc. etc...

It really got to me.... for about five weeks I was a mess. I went down the rabbit hole and it was dark,

damp, coldest place I'd ever felt. When I came out I set my boundaries hard. She had to notice

because she started to get chirpy.... about BS stuff, not about our M, so I had no desire to listen.

We had a 60 day wait for the D to be final (thank God) and after the first 30 days, I left the house.

I was getting the house in the D so I was not worried, just randomly popped in to spot check.

The month I was elsewhere is where the reaches began....but she was wanting me to fix..... what she blew up.

As the D final date neared, her reaches increased. Her only communication with me was email. She wasn't 

sure where I was, did not know my #, nor work #. She asked me out.... 15 minutes after the D was finalized.

She has reached ever since. My XW is just like my 1st love from high school... horrible childhoods

and they run to this day.... they will run until their hearts give out. Sad Man... my XW and I did not 

have kids. A couple weeks before the D was final, I left her in a situation where the door could be

left open, or shut entirely. It was all over an electric bill.... I emailed her "you live there, run the

heat, you need to pay it" She agreed. I did not trust her so the check I took, I used for the

light bill, from our checking acc't. I told her I paid it, she was glad. Well... I paid it from our acc't....

the morning her check was DD'd. She was happy.... she went from saying we could date AFTER the D

to date even BEFORE the D (LOL) Then she realized I paid it from her DD....she was livid.

Called me everything under the Sun. No response.... damn I wanted to but..... as I was telling others here,

do not engage. This was followed by me "stealing" all of her emails / passwords to her bills.

They were on my computer, which I took, but she never asked for them. She also racked up 6 $35 NSF

charges.... some over $1 or $3 purchase. She had a smartphone.... what was stopping her?

Plus.... if she was posting all these NSF charges and not paying her bills.... how can she.... pay her bills!??

Anytime she had any available credit on her CCs....she would be calling in to see how much. She could

have used that # to check on her due dates..... she didn't. See... I always did the bills, made sure

they were up to date, since her $ was involved she was always kept up to date, what paid, how $.

But when she wanted out.... I stopped. When I pulled away from her.... she sank.

It was hard for me to watch.... but it got easier with time. But it all comes back to her wanting out

because she was unhappy, couldn't stand seeing me, didn't want to be miserable. But for five years....

she chases me. I must not have been that bad huh!? So in truth Sad Man.... in many ways.... I still

do not know why she wanted out. Good bet she does not either. But her decision... ended up benefiting 

me MUCH more.... than her.


----------



## Rick Blaine

Sad Man said:


> I'm going to need help to mentally deal with this. I'm tough as nails but this is really weighing on me.
> 
> I'm an answer guy, and this problem isn't giving me answers and it probably never will. That flies directly against my personality.
> 
> I don't think she yet realizes the seriousness of this. She has been insulated by that moronic feminist cult shelter house she's staying at and I'm sure theyre paying for her lawyer etc.. and you can guarantee this aint their first rodeo.
> 
> I'm not a violent or dangerous person but I can understand how people could become that way.


Yes, I can see that you are an answer guy and a man of action. You have acted swiftly in responding to your wife's strange and harmful actions. Good for you. You have enforced healthy boundaries, taken legal action to get your son back and protect yourself, and for a person like you, the hard part is here. Hard because now that you have taken action, there is little you can do from this point on other than go through the grieving process and heal. You can't change your wife, and nothing you do will lift her out of whatever fog she is in. 

So you have reached maybe the most difficult part of this journey, a journey that you did not sign up for. You must work through your grief and sadness without taking any kind of action that will bring your wife back or erase the betrayal. Because there is no action on your part that will do so. And that is very, very difficult for a man of action to do. My advice to you at this point is that you reflect hard on your situation and strategically plan how you are going to process your grief and move forward. First, you need to allow yourself to feel sad, angry, and betrayed. You can't skip this part of the process. You can't self-medicate yourself out of it through denial, drinking, drugs, or dating other women. You have to pay the toll. You have to EXPIERIENCE the grief. But know that it will pass over time. 

Second, you have to accept the fact that your wife has chosen to leave. The betrayal and the broken promise are the hardest things to reconcile, at least they were for me, but you cannot control her or reason with her. You can only control you and your response to this tragedy. And so the battle that you engage in from this point on is taking care of your son when you have him and taking care of yourself, allowing yourself to heal and learn from this experience. When I was in your shoes, I ran...a lot. Every time my running shoes hit the pavement I was striking back. The positive aggression of exercise was great, constructive therapy. Not only was it a release of aggression, but the endorphin high helped fight off my depression and being physically fit helped to rebuild my esteem. Any exercise routine you pick is good medicine. I also made time for friends and family. Their support was a huge blessing and helped me recover, heal, and grow. 

Third, and equally important, this is a time for you focus on your son and help him also recover from this tragedy. Be the rock for him that his mother isn't. All of your posts have indicated that you love him and treasure him. So make sure that he gets 100% of you. This means that you should not date! Your son needs your undivided attention. It is bad enough that his mother is straying and seeing another man. Don't make the same mistake and don't model for him the same dysfunctional behavior. 

Marriage is a covenant, and even though your wife has broken the essential promise of life, you do not have a license to do the same. You are still married! Once the divorce is final, and you've given yourself a chance to heal, recover, grow, and discard the baggage of your broken marriage you may start dating again. But now is not time. Not even close. You showed an attachment to your attorney that was a huge red flag. And going out on a date in the midst of your wife's bombshell was an even bigger red flag. You have to learn to take care of yourself and be strong on your own at this time. Be the fortress your son can take refuge in. Give yourself the gift of time to process your grief and rebuild yourself. Fortify your courage and your integrity by simply being the best father you can. I promise that if you can do this you will come out of the other side a better man, healed and fully integrated. It is only a matter of time. I wish you the best of the luck, my friend.


----------



## Sad Man

That's a great post Rick Blaine. Thank you very much. I am a man of action. When theres a problem, I solve it. 

this is one I cannot solve and not only is it a blow to my emotions since Ive lost my family, its a blow to my personal state of mind as that guy that can get to the bottom of anything and rectify it.

pffft.. sorry Sadman, you lose big time! Its like getting bashed below the waist every 30 seconds for weeks now.

I'm a little concerned that if I don't just keep trying with women now I will become nervous around them, and maybe even unsure of myself. That may cause me to slip into some depression of some type. I'm thinking if I took that beating from the x, then the best thing for me to do is get up and start swinging for the fences.

That seems to be a bad idea judging from the responses I got here.

It very well could be a subconscious cry for help, that I need to be loved or at least get some attention from a woman.??

I seem to be looking at women very differently lately. I don't want to drag any down if that's where I'm headed. I want to bring myself up if that makes sense?

I'm really quite confused when I look at it all.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Sad Man said:


> That's a great post Rick Blaine. Thank you very much. I am a man of action. When theres a problem, I solve it.
> 
> this is one I cannot solve and not only is it a blow to my emotions since Ive lost my family, its a blow to my personal state of mind as that guy that can get to the bottom of anything and rectify it.
> 
> pffft.. sorry Sadman, you lose big time! Its like getting bashed below the waist every 30 seconds for weeks now.
> 
> I'm a little concerned that if I don't just keep trying with women now I will become nervous around them, and maybe even unsure of myself. That may cause me to slip into some depression of some type. I'm thinking if I took that beating from the x, then the best thing for me to do is get up and start swinging for the fences.
> 
> That seems to be a bad idea judging from the responses I got here.
> 
> It very well could be a subconscious cry for help, that I need to be loved or at least get some attention from a woman.??
> 
> I seem to be looking at women very differently lately. I don't want to drag any down if that's where I'm headed. I want to bring myself up if that makes sense?
> 
> I'm really quite confused when I look at it all.


You're like a drowning man grabbing on to a woman to save yourself, but you're just going to drag her down too.


----------



## Sad Man

Nucking Futs said:


> You're like a drowning man grabbing on to a woman to save yourself, but you're just going to drag her down too.


so I should just sink? or youre telling me I need to learn to swim?


but I feel like I know how to swim already? Perhaps I'm like my son who once ran and jumped off a dock into a lake because he can swim but had no idea what he was getting into? (Daddy jumped in after him of course and he was just fine without my assistance... luckily)


----------



## sokillme

Sad Man said:


> That's a great post Rick Blaine. Thank you very much. I am a man of action. When theres a problem, I solve it.
> 
> this is one I cannot solve and not only is it a blow to my emotions since Ive lost my family, its a blow to my personal state of mind as that guy that can get to the bottom of anything and rectify it.
> 
> pffft.. sorry Sadman, you lose big time! Its like getting bashed below the waist every 30 seconds for weeks now.
> 
> I'm a little concerned that if I don't just keep trying with women now I will become nervous around them, and maybe even unsure of myself. That may cause me to slip into some depression of some type. I'm thinking if I took that beating from the x, then the best thing for me to do is get up and start swinging for the fences.
> 
> That seems to be a bad idea judging from the responses I got here.
> 
> It very well could be a subconscious cry for help, that I need to be loved or at least get some attention from a woman.??
> 
> I seem to be looking at women very differently lately. I don't want to drag any down if that's where I'm headed. I want to bring myself up if that makes sense?
> 
> I'm really quite confused when I look at it all.


Your action is to accept sometimes in life things end. Sometimes you are wrong about people and you learn they are *******s. Your action is to get mentally and emotionally strong for you and your kid. Your action is to kill any love you once had for your wife, kill all the romantic feelings for her and romantic light you still struggle not to see her in. See her in the cold harsh light of what a jerk she is. Work on that. 

You action is to become independent and never NEED the love of any women to make you feel happy. That is a bonus. Work like hell on all of that. Also get in great shape and work to have a good career if you don't yet. Do those things and your life will get better.

This is emotional boot came my friend. Get some books and read about narcissistic women and codependency. Read about what makes a good relationship. Learn. Get some hobbies that you always wanted to do. Most of all live your life, stop making your happiness dependent on this crazy jerk of a women who accused you of abuse to steal your son away from you.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Sad Man said:


> so I should just sink? or youre telling me I need to learn to swim?
> 
> 
> but I feel like I know how to swim already? Perhaps I'm like my son who once ran and jumped off a dock into a lake because he can swim but had no idea what he was getting into? (Daddy jumped in after him of course and he was just fine without my assistance... luckily)


Nobody is telling you to never date again, just put it off a little bit until you're in a better frame of mind for it. You _will_ hurt her despite whatever intentions you have if you don't take the time you need to heal.


----------



## honcho

Sad Man said:


> so I should just sink? or youre telling me I need to learn to swim?
> 
> 
> but I feel like I know how to swim already? Perhaps I'm like my son who once ran and jumped off a dock into a lake because he can swim but had no idea what he was getting into? (Daddy jumped in after him of course and he was just fine without my assistance... luckily)


I swim very well but I'm not going to jump into lake Michigan in January to do it. That's kind of what your doing trying to date right now. Your life has too much drama in it right now and your just not in the right frame of mind whether you believe it or not. Most people who jump into dating quickly end up picking wrong or a carbon copy of the ex. Many who have been down the road already will tell you it's better to just wait, get your head and heart sorted out. 

We all wanted answers and explanations and yet the answers will never come. You need to accept that but once you do you'll heal faster. You will never have any idea what she is/was thinking and many times they don't even fully understand why they are doing what they are doing. Right now you've got to take some of the things she is saying with a grain of salt. They aren't the reasons but convenient excuses at the moment.


----------



## Sad Man

another interesting comment. thank you for that, and to everyone else, thank you too.

I read all comments over and over so I can really understand what is being said. None of your comments go to waste or fall on deaf ears, I promise all of you that.



Thanks again to everyone that has helped and contributed. I don't know what's next in all of this but I'm sure whatever it is will be soon. Very soon.

I will update as things progress.


----------



## jlg07

@Sad Man, any updates? Have you been able to see your son more?


----------



## Sad Man

jlg07 said:


> @Sad Man, any updates? Have you been able to see your son more?



Yes, I have him every 5 nights, alternating with her. He loves his home and he cries when he has to go back to her and her bs. He wants to come home so badly and we have a great time together.

In fact today I had to drop him off at school as it was my last night with him Sunday. My life goes from fun and exciting with him, to absolutely nothing at all. Dead silence. I am sitting in the dark as I type this, and if you guessed very sad, youd be right.

Whats bothering me the most now is how much he has changed. He still refuses to sleep in his own bed and insists on sleeping in my arms. In fact he makes me wrap my arms around him because hes scared someone will take him away from his Daddy again. He wont let me leave him alone in any room for the same reason.

My son was quite stable before all this, now hes having issues. I'm very angry about that.

My ex takes him to that stupid cult/shelter place where all men are guilty of wrong doing just because they are men.

My son told me that mommy told him I'm mean and its because I don't know any better. 

Its all bs being fed to her, and down to him from this cult organization.

I will be talking to my lawyer about this, but it will just cost me more money.


----------



## Chuck71

Things as you indicated are things you should document.... for two reasons. Of course.... the D.

The other is to give to your morbidly twisted STBXW..... in about ten years. When she wonders WITF

her son wants nothing to do with her and has trust and safety issues with his peers.

Most of our pitfalls in life..... are self-made. Your STBXW is a prime example.


----------



## Sad Man

Little update..

as time rolls along the eX has been flooding my lawyer with affidavits that are all made to make me look bad.

2 from the toxic co-workers, one whom I only met once for 10 seconds, and one from the ex's mother who always hated me from day 1. she is borderline senile and it shows in her sworn statements.

this is only driving up costs which infuriates my lawyer because this is just stupidity and not even required. 

I can get a bunch of people to say great things about me and how I'm a great father too. but it will cost me big lawyer fees.

unreal what this b**** and her toxic co workers are willing to do. it really is.


----------



## Chuck71

Sad Man said:


> Little update..
> 
> as time rolls along the eX has been flooding my lawyer with affidavits that are all made to make me look bad.
> 
> 2 from the toxic co-workers, one whom I only met once for 10 seconds, and one from the ex's mother who always hated me from day 1. she is borderline senile and it shows in her sworn statements.
> 
> this is only driving up costs which infuriates my lawyer because this is just stupidity and not even required.
> 
> I can get a bunch of people to say great things about me and how I'm a great father too. but it will cost me big lawyer fees.
> 
> unreal what this b**** and her toxic co workers are willing to do. it really is.


This should NOT shock you. This is the REAL her. Without the mask.

I am not materialistic, my parents were not, neither were either of their parents. This is wasted $$$

But you have to.... because Lil Red Delusional wants to make you out to be the Ahole who Stole Christmas..... 

I...... I could say you are a bad father and live what, 3,000 miles away from you..... and YOU

have to defend that. WTF is this world coming to?


----------



## Satya

Sad Man said:


> Yes, I have him every 5 nights, alternating with her. He loves his home and he cries when he has to go back to her and her bs. He wants to come home so badly and we have a great time together.
> 
> In fact today I had to drop him off at school as it was my last night with him Sunday. My life goes from fun and exciting with him, to absolutely nothing at all. Dead silence. I am sitting in the dark as I type this, and if you guessed very sad, youd be right.
> 
> Whats bothering me the most now is how much he has changed. He still refuses to sleep in his own bed and insists on sleeping in my arms. In fact he makes me wrap my arms around him because hes scared someone will take him away from his Daddy again. He wont let me leave him alone in any room for the same reason.
> 
> My son was quite stable before all this, now hes having issues. I'm very angry about that.
> 
> My ex takes him to that stupid cult/shelter place where all men are guilty of wrong doing just because they are men.
> 
> My son told me that mommy told him I'm mean and its because I don't know any better.
> 
> Its all bs being fed to her, and down to him from this cult organization.
> 
> I will be talking to my lawyer about this, but it will just cost me more money.


Document ALL of this in a diary, with dates /times. Keep it locked up somewhere safe. This is too important to not document.


----------



## Sad Man

Ok I just found out what they are doing is trying to take me back to court to change the court order that we already have in place.

The judge gave us 50-50 for now until a "case conference" which is booked for January where most of this stuff will be ironed out for good. 

They have booked a court date next week. I have to respond to all these affidavits in writing, clause by clause, shooting each one down as the nonsense most of them are (the ones that say who the person is writing that claim etc are not "nonsense").

I'm betting they will continue to try and flood me with affidavits and bog me down giving me little, if any time to respond.

Sorta like how we caught them flatfooted with the emergency court action over the abduction of my son.

The good part is I have been 100% honest with my lawyer and all my stories and filings and we have already submitted as per our opening salvo all the details and prepared for the worst things they could possibly say about me.

they are not presenting any new information that we already haven't, aside from their embellishments and twists on things to make me look bad, angry etc...

the good thing is her pig farmer lawyer booked and filed a court date when there will be no court activities. It pretty much negates the whole thing due to her idiocy. 

Today I get my son at noon again. I always put him first, above everything else in the world. It will be difficult to keep things going on the legal end with the required urgency while I have him in my full care.

I can take on all comers. I can fight these people and I can win. I will win. I will fight. 

but I'm not sure how much of me there will be left to fight again another day.

edit: I have nothing against pig farmers, I'm a rough and tough blue collar guy myself and respect farmers highly, I just think a lawyer shouldn't attend court dressed like one.


----------



## Chuck71

Your STBXW and "Piglett" want something to gain momentum as the court date in January nears.

If they could.....just get custody 67/33 or 75/25 by the court date....they may have a chance.

Sad Man..... that's all they are doing. Even they know they don't have a case. But as sad as it is...

you have to play ball "for the courts." You know all these allegations are BS, even STBXW

and Piglett do. They hope you somehow slip up. They're grasping at straws. 

Stay focused and enjoy the time with your son.


----------



## EleGirl

Sad Man said:


> Ok I just found out what they are doing is trying to take me back to court to change the court order that we already have in place.
> 
> The judge gave us 50-50 for now until a "case conference" which is booked for January where most of this stuff will be ironed out for good.
> 
> They have booked a court date next week. I have to respond to all these affidavits in writing, clause by clause, shooting each one down as the nonsense most of them are (the ones that say who the person is writing that claim etc are not "nonsense").
> 
> I'm betting they will continue to try and flood me with affidavits and bog me down giving me little, if any time to respond.
> 
> Sorta like how we caught them flatfooted with the emergency court action over the abduction of my son.
> 
> The good part is I have been 100% honest with my lawyer and all my stories and filings and we have already submitted as per our opening salvo all the details and prepared for the worst things they could possibly say about me.
> 
> they are not presenting any new information that we already haven't, aside from their embellishments and twists on things to make me look bad, angry etc...
> 
> the good thing is her pig farmer lawyer booked and filed a court date when there will be no court activities. It pretty much negates the whole thing due to her idiocy.
> 
> Today I get my son at noon again. I always put him first, above everything else in the world. It will be difficult to keep things going on the legal end with the required urgency while I have him in my full care.
> 
> I can take on all comers. I can fight these people and I can win. I will win. I will fight.
> 
> but I'm not sure how much of me there will be left to fight again another day.
> 
> edit: I have nothing against pig farmers, I'm a rough and tough blue collar guy myself and respect farmers highly, I just think a lawyer shouldn't attend court dressed like one.


If there is one thing that judges and the courts hate, it's the kind of nonsense your wife and her lawyer are doing (I will not call him a piglet, etc. as I do not wish to insult pigs.) Her lawyer sees her as a fool and bucket of cash. How can she even afford to pay for this nonsense?

Anyway, once a judge puts some kind of visitation plan in place, even a temporary one, it's hard to get it changed. Judges hate messing with the status quo when it comes to kids and just about anything else.

From what you have said, you stbx has no real proof of anything real negative about you. So she's getting her mother and friend to make up stories or at least express their unsubstantiated nonsense. 

Keep up the good fight and stay as far away from the brawl in the pig pen as you can.


----------



## Affaircare

The mere signing of a statement in the presence of a notary, or a notary’s placement of an “acknowledgment” on a statement, does not constitute a sworn statement or affidavit. Citing some state precedence, _Schelsteder v. Montgomery County, Tex. , 2006 WL 1117883, at *3 (S.D. Tex. 2006_), the court held that: 

"Plaintiffs have filed a number of witness statements that Plaintiffs’ counsel characterize as “affidavits,” but they are not sworn to nor are they statements made under penalty of perjury. The mere signing of a statement in the presence of a notary, or a notary’s placement of an “acknowledgment” on a statement, does not constitute a sworn statement or affidavit. ...Accordingly, the [statements] do not constitute summary judgment evidence under [Rule 56(c)], and are not considered on the pending motion." 

In other words, just because she gets people to write out some statement and sign it in front of a notary doesn't mean that it's evidence, and there is a lot of legal precedence for this! In order to win a motion, she would have to present actual evidence. For a signed statement to be considered an affidavit, it has to meet three elements: (1) a written oath embodying the facts as sworn to by the person witnessing the affidavit; (2) the signature of the person witnessing the affidavit; and (3) the attestation *by an officer authorized to administer the oath* that the affidavit was actually sworn by the person witnessing the affidavit before the officer.

In addition, for the affidavit to be admissible, the substance of the affidavit must constitute admissible evidence. So it has to be personal knowledge (I saw... or I observed), and it must set forth facts (not opinions). There can be nothing like "I heard that this or that happened" nor anything like "I felt this was abuse" because that is not fact--it's their feelings. 

In addition, for the affidavit to be admissible, it has to be consistent with prior submissions and statements. So for example, you cannot enter an affidavit that says you were in the laundromat on Monday when in a prior submission, they stated you were at home on Monday. Their own affidavits can not be inconsistent or the courts just can't rely on them.

Therefore, one of the best things you and your lawyer can do is look at the affidavits for the three elements, and if all three elements are not there, just enter a motion to strike or an objection to the admissibility of the affidavit. Next, read them and see if they constitute admissible evidence. Is there hearsay? Does it set forth facts and avoid opinion or feelings? If not, enter a motion to strike or an objection to the admissibility. Finally, read the affidavits and see if they are consistent with prior submissions or statements they made. If there is an inconsistency, you can point out the issue in facts and based on the undermine the integrity of this affidavit and the previous evidence! They would both be thrown out as a sham--but you'd have to point it out and then file for motion to strike or object to the admissibility. 

I will bet you MONEY that all of the affidavits they are throwing at you either don't have the three elements or include hearsay and opinion and do not meet the standard of court evidence. That is to say, an affidavit should only present fact 1, fact 2, fact 3...and then allow the court to decide if that was legal or illegal, etc. There should be NOTHING about what they think. So take heart, because although it will take up time and money, I don't really see anything here that would be a leg to stand on, and the court will get pissed that they are wasting the court's time with :bsflag: like this.


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## Chuck71

affaircare said:


> the mere signing of a statement in the presence of a notary, or a notary’s placement of an “acknowledgment” on a statement, does not constitute a sworn statement or affidavit. Citing some state precedence, _schelsteder v. Montgomery county, tex. , 2006 wl 1117883, at *3 (s.d. Tex. 2006_), the court held that:
> 
> "plaintiffs have filed a number of witness statements that plaintiffs’ counsel characterize as “affidavits,” but they are not sworn to nor are they statements made under penalty of perjury. The mere signing of a statement in the presence of a notary, or a notary’s placement of an “acknowledgment” on a statement, does not constitute a sworn statement or affidavit. ...accordingly, the [statements] do not constitute summary judgment evidence under [rule 56(c)], and are not considered on the pending motion."
> 
> in other words, just because she gets people to write out some statement and sign it in front of a notary doesn't mean that it's evidence, and there is a lot of legal precedence for this! In order to win a motion, she would have to present actual evidence. For a signed statement to be considered an affidavit, it has to meet three elements: (1) a written oath embodying the facts as sworn to by the person witnessing the affidavit; (2) the signature of the person witnessing the affidavit; and (3) the attestation *by an officer authorized to administer the oath* that the affidavit was actually sworn by the person witnessing the affidavit before the officer.
> 
> In addition, for the affidavit to be admissible, the substance of the affidavit must constitute admissible evidence. So it has to be personal knowledge (i saw... Or i observed), and it must set forth facts (not opinions). There can be nothing like "i heard that this or that happened" nor anything like "i felt this was abuse" because that is not fact--it's their feelings.
> 
> In addition, for the affidavit to be admissible, it has to be consistent with prior submissions and statements. So for example, you cannot enter an affidavit that says you were in the laundromat on monday when in a prior submission, they stated you were at home on monday. Their own affidavits can not be inconsistent or the courts just can't rely on them.
> 
> Therefore, one of the best things you and your lawyer can do is look at the affidavits for the three elements, and if all three elements are not there, just enter a motion to strike or an objection to the admissibility of the affidavit. Next, read them and see if they constitute admissible evidence. Is there hearsay? Does it set forth facts and avoid opinion or feelings? If not, enter a motion to strike or an objection to the admissibility. Finally, read the affidavits and see if they are consistent with prior submissions or statements they made. If there is an inconsistency, you can point out the issue in facts and based on the undermine the integrity of this affidavit and the previous evidence! They would both be thrown out as a sham--but you'd have to point it out and then file for motion to strike or object to the admissibility.
> 
> I will bet you money that all of the affidavits they are throwing at you either don't have the three elements or include hearsay and opinion and do not meet the standard of court evidence. That is to say, an affidavit should only present fact 1, fact 2, fact 3...and then allow the court to decide if that was legal or illegal, etc. There should be nothing about what they think. So take heart, because although it will take up time and money, i don't really see anything here that would be a leg to stand on, and the court will get pissed that they are wasting the court's time with :bsflag: Like this.


this.....


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## 3putt

Chuck71 said:


> this.....


Agreed. That's some fantastic info, AC.


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## Sad Man

yes great info indeed.

I have had some time today to get busy on my rebuttals. The best part is they totally contradict themselves all throughout them.

You can read one thing in say paragraph 34, then in paragraph 53 they say the exact opposite or reference an example that totally undermines what they said earlier.

these are all basically a joke. Filled with so many claims that totally shoot themselves in the foot at every turn.

but I still have to shuffle through them and include info that refutes them, it will be labour intensive.

edit:

I'm sure they did/timed this to coincide with my 5 days with my son so I would have trouble finding time to get this done.

I bet they will hit me with another batch.


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## Affaircare

I also have no doubt that they timed this so it's inconvenient for you. In fact, I would say now that we have seen "how they operate" that there will be a lot more attempts at legal shenanigans. 

HOWEVER, once you get to court (is it Monday?) and once the court sees that they are not affidavits, they contradict themselves, and they don't introduce evidence but rather just relate hearsay, I would suspect that the judge will enter some sort of order to stop the endless stream of affidavits and wasting court time. In other words, chances are good that if your motions to strike are granted, that the court will also say "...AND there will be no more attempts to waste court time with more meaningless affidavits. Counsel, if you come before this court again with this kind of trickery, there will be a consequence." 

Next time, they will have to have real evidence and proof, and everything they submit will be extra scrutinized to be sure it IS evidence and not contradictory :bsflag:

So it's a pain you have to go through it now, but the small irritation now will be absolutely worth it to discredit her legal tactics in front of the court.


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## Chuck71

Affaircare said:


> I also have no doubt that they timed this so it's inconvenient for you. In fact, I would say now that we have seen "how they operate" that there will be a lot more attempts at legal shenanigans.
> 
> HOWEVER, once you get to court (is it Monday?) and once the court sees that they are not affidavits, they contradict themselves, and they don't introduce evidence but rather just relate hearsay, I would suspect that the judge will enter some sort of order to stop the endless stream of affidavits and wasting court time. In other words, chances are good that if your motions to strike are granted, that the court will also say "...AND there will be no more attempts to waste court time with more meaningless affidavits. Counsel, if you come before this court again with this kind of trickery, there will be a consequence."
> 
> Next time, they will have to have real evidence and proof, and everything they submit will be extra scrutinized to be sure it IS evidence and not contradictory :bsflag:
> 
> So it's a pain you have to go through it now, but the small irritation now will be absolutely worth it to discredit her legal tactics in front of the court.


You missed your calling...... just saying....


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## Affaircare

Chuck71 said:


> You missed your calling...... just saying....


Yes but there is not position called "Navigating the Court System" Coach--and thus, I have to just do it for free on forums!

:grin2: >


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## Sad Man

the new motion hearing was to be on Thursday but as far as I can tell (via my lawyers office) there is no court that day.

so there will have to be a new date issued, but I'm sure it will be soon.

they have to show urgency for their motion although as mentioned there already is a court order in place and a reasonable time set for the beginning showdown which they call a case conference.

they are claiming hardship as the urgency, one for her clothes, which have been packed nicely into boxes and labelled precisely. They have been made available to her since Oct 23 via pickup as per a mutual friend. She initially agreed but a few hours later changed her mind...?? The offer was again made to her 4 days later thru the same person, she again refused.

How urgent can this be if she has refused to pick them up when made available?

She also claims the rental cable TV box (from the cable company) is being billed to her as urgent... it is also packed away in those boxes awaiting her acceptance of it via third party delivery.

then the big one, they are whining saying my son is acting weird and needs to be with only her...

well, yes. He is acting weird. what did she expect when she destroyed his family and everything he knew and leaned on it his almost 7 years on this planet? he is not himself any more. He does extremely well with me and becomes sad and angry that he has to go back to a cult shelter where they teach him that Daddy is bad.

so infuriating!

he got up early today and wants to play. we are going swimming today and to my fathers for supper, all things he loves to do.

but how will I get all this work done in time? I'm getting a good go at it, and will some more right now while I can.


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## Chuck71

Run everything through your lawyer. They are looking for a way to trip you up.

The judge will see through this.... be diligent and enjoy time with your son. 

Document...... EVERYTHING. They're looking for a loophole because they have NO leg

to stand on


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## Sad Man

well after 3 days of hard work, all the writing, 4 more pens emptied, and about 70 sheets of lined paper are all being put into word format and being sent to my lawyers. I also have heard my son talking about all the bad things mommys friends are saying about me and the one father who keeps hurting him despite my sons objections.

ive got experiences where hes playing fine one minute then breaks into comments about how mommy leaves him alone, or at peoples homes that say bad things about daddy repeatedly, etc.. Sometimes I'm able to grab my phone or voice recorder but then realize that I'm just supposed to ignore all that and pretend he never said it for some reason.

yeah.

I don't know how much that will help me but it has to be better than the hearsay from her toxic co-workers and their BS affidavits that were very easy to pick apart using things they claimed in one paragraph and then contradicted themselves in others.

Tons of work. Harder to accomplish with my son with me too, but I got it done.

Lets all hope this pays off. We've done good so far and the support Ive received here has been excellent!

thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread and ultimately mine and my sons well being. I really mean that too. Thanks to everyone, the forum, mods, members, etc.. You guys are great and have helped out immensely.

lets hope I don't disappoint anyone or my son along the way.


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## BetrayedDad

@Sad Man

Why is she so afraid of you? Police escorts, intermediaries, etc. there must be something besides demented paranoia behind this.....

If she's just THIS evil and nuts then frankly shame on you for marrying the wackjob. You need to up your red flag detection game, fast.


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## Sad Man

well, I'm not sure exactly. I am a large guy, with a personality that is pretty brash. Ive never hit a woman or even pretended to. I used to be a hockey player in the good ol days and get into a lot of fights but I don't think that Ive been in one since I was 21 ish.

I have no criminal record but was once charged with mischief over a neighbour dispute after he blocked my driveway with his truck and refused to move it. The police neglected to do anything about it either so I took matters into my own hands when I shouldn't have.

I have a booming voice, which I don't use often. I guess in a sense I'm pretty alpha and somehow people know not to cross me, even though when people actually do, nothing happens.

She claimed she "didn't know what I was capable of" so she had to use the police. I said that's 2 of us, because I know I haven't ever done anything to be judged for.

Now, as for recording anything or engaging in adult discussions.... My lawyer stronger urged me not to do such a thing so I'm glad I didn't

I'm just supposed to ignore my son telling me that someone is hurting him repeatedly apparently.

theres so many things I just don't get.

edited for legal reasons.


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## Steve1000

Affaircare said:


> Yes but there is not position called "Navigating the Court System" Coach--and thus, I have to just do it for free on forums!
> 
> :grin2: >


I think they're called legal advisers.


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## Chaparral

Are people hurting your son physically and you are not supposed to record him telling you about it? Amazing


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## Sad Man

Chaparral said:


> Are people hurting your son physically and you are not supposed to record him telling you about it? Amazing



I Know!! I'm beside myself about this. This rotation he has bruises on his arm and says they are from this guy!

Lawyer said if I'm 100% sure that I should go to the police. I have spoken with some of his teachers at school etc..

I can tell you its really testing my patience. If it happens again I will go absolutely ballistic.

My lawyer says to be positive about it because it will cause investigations into myself by both the police and the childrens aid services, which I do not fear, however do I really need to fight on yet another front?

I can do it, and I will do it, but I'm going to give this one more shot as my son has made it pretty clear to his mother and this guy whats going to happen so they are probably being extra cautious I guess?

Also its a real pleasure to write all this while my son is by my side, curled up under a blankey and is falling asleep because we had a great busy day of swimming, visiting some friends, going to my fathers for a nice supper, then bowling afterwards. 

but hes gone tomorrow at noon and I will be sad again. This is the last chance for the grabbing/touching thing. My son has specific instructions what to do now and weve gone over them pretty good.

I pray to god this all works out just fine.

PS, to those following along my ex dropped their attempts to challenge the court order when we threatened them with costs as they knew they would lose big time again. Also we had a 50-50 chance of getting the same judge that destroyed them before and would have been totally livid if they were before him trying to change his order while presenting zero evidence why he should. It still ran up my costs though.

that's all I can say for now.


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## Rick Blaine

Hang in there, Sad Man. You are doing great, and your son is blessed to have a great father.


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## Adelais

Sad Man, listen to your lawyer. I'm sorry this is happening to your son, and to you. Hang in there. You're doing great! Your son is blessed to have a father who loves him so much.


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## Chuck71

SM..... you're in the driver's seat. Yes everything is a hassle which, as you see it, is unneeded... 

and to a degree, I agree with you. But you have to walk this line. You will end up so much better.

I don't see you having to pay much, if any, spousal support or child support. You may not have

"full custody" but 75 / 25 is a definite win. BTW I have zero knowledge of Canadian marriage laws.

You should change your handle from Sad Man to..... Happy Man


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## Sad Man

thanks so much Chuck...

things continue to be interesting in this mess. Yesterday I got a call from Children's Aid Services... the child welfare people here in Ontario. It seems my ex made a complaint about me, and they had some concerns over "messaging".

I wasn't getting too in to it over the phone. The guy wanted to come over to my house and interview me. I said NO. I don't want you in my house but I will come to your office. He seemed a little miffed but too bad. I don't want any more people in my house. So today I met with this guy at their office.

He asked me what was going on and that he knew there was a recent separation. I didn't want to say too much but I didn't want to seem evasive and uncooperative. So I told him all about how any "messaging" was mostly coming from my sons own observations that he has seen, and probably what they have been telling him in that insane asylum/cult house. One of the concerns they had was that I had told my son that the shelter was a place where mommys hate daddys!

They made this sound like something terrible. I quickly explained that there is no men around there and that my son had noticed that and I had explained to him that the reason was the shelter was for women only that didn't get along and fought with their daddys.

For some reason all of a sudden this "investigator" now understood, and all was well??

I said if he said mommys hate daddys that was his own connection and words, not mine.

Then we got into the whole guy touching and hurting my son bit. Showed him the pictures of the bruises on my sons arm etc.. I explained how terrible these people were and how they were drug users etc and how I despised that and didn't want my son left around them etc...

Some progress was made on that subject but the guy was a little elusive with his answers regarding any experiences with that guy, meaning I suspect they already have dealt with him on other issues. Which put another mark in my win column.

In the end they said that they agreed with me and there was no reason for concern over me and my son for them and they would be closing the file and sending me a letter stating as much. My ex's attempt to make me into some bad guy with the child welfare people failed miserably!!

and for the icing on the cake??? The guy said he had met with my son and said what a great little boy he was, AND he told them all that he's happiest with his Daddy and wants to be at home with me!

So, that means for sure I'm being a great dad in his eyes which is good. Now that doesn't mean I'm the best parent because I could be letting him have cake and ice cream for his breakfast, but between hearing that from him and all the other comments so many people have said which say I am a great Father I'm more energized than ever to fight all this BS shes thrown at me.

Folks, I'm doing pretty good. So many of you have helped me. I cant thank you all enough, you kept my spirits up, coached me and helped me keep a level head. Theres still a long road ahead of me but some of the biggest bumps have already been overcome.

now if I can just get my beautiful lawyer to go out with me.. hmmm Just kidding! (sorta)


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## Chaparral

Update?


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## GuyInColorado

Good thing you have a cool head. If a women did this to me and my kid, I'd be having some serious evil thoughts going through my mind which I'm not sure I could ignore. I've seen every Dexter episode!


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## Sad Man

Update... not much of one.

the Childrens aid society is off my case, and perhaps on to hers now. I'm not sure. I did finally get in touch with the school social worker and advised her of what was going on. It seemed to me that my ex has already been talking with her because it sure seemed like she was making me out to be the bad guy over the same things that were told to the CAS people.

I set the record straight. I said I'm not going to be made into a bad person by someone who is telling stories and projecting her own paranoia onto me for things I have never done, nor implied I would.

I planted the seed with the social worker. I told her what I am being told by my son and to investigate it herself. Don't use any of my conclusions, instead to form her own. Ask him her own questions and see the responses she gets regarding this clown and soon to be in a world of hurt if he touches my son again.

One of the things I will be working towards is the first right of refusal for baby sitting of my son. Today is a fine example. She works all day Saturday, and where will she leave my son this time? A drug addict's home? or another drug addict's home? (drug addict's home? isn't that an oxymoron?)

Yesterday a mutual friend/3rd party picked up a bunch of her things finally as agreed upon via lawyers (thanks for wasting more of my money you B****!) There was a long list of things that she wants to attend the house to collect, but it has to be a mutually agreed to time.. which I'm finding trouble making that convenient.  However I did manage to get rid of 90% of her clothes and a few other items like a tv, etc... BUT one of the big things that was hard to give... which I will divulge in a minute here..

When my boy was here last, on the last night.. he said Daddy... next time I'm home with you can we set up the Christmas tree? I said "maybe, although Id rather wait til after your birthday" (in 10 days) He wouldn't let up. Now my son loves Christmas, and not just the presents. He loves decorating, and very much setting up the tree. So knowing how much he loves it and I want to make it special for him, I agreed. I promised him we would set up the tree and get out all the Christmas decorations.

Can you now guess what I had to give her??

yup, the Christmas tree and all the decorations. 

My own fault. She wanted half. I said she could take them all and I didn't care about things like that, I just wanted my son. I told my lawyer to give her most things she wants in exchange for the things I do.

but I didn't think far enough ahead to see this one coming and I was a little perturbed as I threw the tree and decorations out of my house yesterday.

Oh well, Ill have to get new stuff. I own some rural property (long story but not in my name so she cant touch it) and my boy and I could make our own tradition and go and cut down our own tree on my own land with my own chainsaw (yes a bow saw is fine but why not make it a little more masculine?  )

EX moved in to her new apartment yesterday which is why she wants "stuff" so I do want my boy to be comfy so I wont be too uncooperative with providing things. Don't care about her though.

oh and one more thing... the third party woman who was friends with my EX and I said when she got back from the first trip of things that my eX looked like she aged 20 years. She looked terrible and the third party is completely disgusted with her and her BS claims of 'abuse" and using a women's shelter for illegitimate reasons. This third party knows my ex's actions are ridiculous and unfounded and cant believe she would be so very stupid as to do this to me, my son, and even herself.

Its starting to seem like she is hard on drugs at this point. again if there is another guy involved, there has been no evidence of it to date, to anyone. I think she honestly is a walk away wife, or is having a serious mental health condition that is being pushed along by some man hating type of women in her life where they are making me into a bad guy by projecting their own hatred onto me, even though none of them know me.

One day soon my eX will wake up and realize how badly she has messed up, if she hasn't already.


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## SunCMars

Your's son will be how old, how old on December the 12th, is it?


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## Bonkers

Sad Man said:


> One of the concerns they had was that I had told my son that the shelter was a place where mommys hate daddys!
> 
> They made this sound like something terrible. I quickly explained that there is no men around there and that my son had noticed that and I had explained to him that the reason was the shelter was for women only that didn't get along and fought with their daddys.


You told your son that a shelter is a place for women who fight with their daddys?

I could see you saying something like "Some people have unhappy things happen to them, maybe they are not healthy, or they can't get a job and because they don't have enough money they have to stay in a place called a shelter until things get better for them". 

But to say it's because mommys and daddys fight? Don't you think that's a rather odd explanation?


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## sokillme

Sad Man said:


> One day soon my eX will wake up and realize how badly she has messed up, if she hasn't already.


I hope she continues to wake up.


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## Sad Man

SunCMars said:


> Your's son will be how old, how old on December the 12th, is it?


7, on the 13th


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## Sad Man

Bonkers said:


> You told your son that a shelter is a place for women who fight with their daddys?
> 
> I could see you saying something like "Some people have unhappy things happen to them, maybe they are not healthy, or they can't get a job and because they don't have enough money they have to stay in a place called a shelter until things get better for them".
> 
> But to say it's because mommys and daddys fight? Don't you think that's a rather odd explanation?



well it was abbreviated to that after some discussion. I didn't just come right out and say the reason there are no men there is because they hate daddys.

I explained that its where mommys go when they have nowhere else to go when they are not getting along with the daddys.

It sounds a little harsher than it was, and most of that abbreviating is from his own observations.

I'm not going to lie to him and make up other reasons than the real ones.


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## Sad Man

sokillme said:


> I hope she continues to wake up.



that sounds like sarcasm?

Am I wrong?


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## sokillme

Sad Man said:


> that sounds like sarcasm?
> 
> Am I wrong?


No I think she is headed down a scary road from what you say. If she has isolated herself around people who don't seem to care about her best self interests and she is using drugs, that is a path that often leads to really bad things including death.


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## Sad Man

OK, thanks for being clear.

I had this impression that you were meaning that she had woken up and realized I was a nut job myself.

I guess I'm just a little defensive since she accused me of verbally and emotionally abusing her.



thanks for you support and I'm sorry for being a little confused and sensitive. 

I still think she will snap out of it and come running back but my word, it would be almost impossible to do that, even with professional diagnosis etc..


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## Satya

Sad Man said:


> 7, on the 13th


We Sagittarians are very resilient, even as children. 

Go take him out and cut a tree. Make it an adventure and give him a choice of which tree to cut.

Decorations: lights are fairly cheap, so that's no problem. Get the basics (bulbs, star) from Walmart or similar - again, inexpensive.

The expensive part are the GOOD ornaments. My suggestion is that you make it a tradition that each year you and your son select a new special ornament for that year, together. Over the years they will accumulate and hold memories for you both.


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## Sad Man

That's a good idea.

what I was thinking was we go buy some ornaments and what not together, and perhaps make some of our own.

When I was a kid my mother did that with me. We just took normal balls/bulbs/bobbles or whatever you call them, took simple white glue and then sprinkled like silver and gold sparkle powder (whatever that stuff is called?) on the glue, so things like my initials or name got the sparkle stuff, etc..

wow, can anybody tell I'm not someone that normally does that type of "crafts" LOL!

anyway, yes we will take this opportunity to make it into something good. 

I let a guy hunt on my land (because he helps out there some and is a good guy) and I called him yesterday to see if he was done hunting there yet this year and I wanted to make sure I didn't disturb anything or interfere with his plans (I respect him as he does me) and he tells me theres still a bear awake and roaming the property (theres game cameras there) so if I went there to be careful especially with my son. So I may skip the tree cutting. Yes I'm not worried myself, but can you imagine if there was an incident? My son has to watch daddy unload a 12 ga into a bear that's charging at us, or whatever... probably not good in the early stages of a custody battle.

I don't want to take him into that situation at this time. Although those types of memories last a lifetime, you want to make sure they are good ones, not tragic ones.


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## Chuck71

SM......... what is the custody arrangement with son for Christmas Eve, Day, and New Years?


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