# Is It Really That Bad?



## Bigrascal

I’m new here and this is my first post. I have been with my wife for 2.5 years. She is controlling and thinks that she is right most of the time. Her default position is that I am incompetent. 

In the beginning of this relationship, I was more dominant. The process of beta-ization started slowly overtime and because I didn’t nip this in the bud early, it progressively got worse (in IC I have learned that I am apparently conflict adverse in personal relationships – something I am working on). I have done the man up thing and I push back on her fitness tests on a consistent basis. These things have helped, but there still seems to be a fundamental issue – she believes that there is a lack of an emotional connection that was there early on. Also, everything I do or do not do is seen by her as a measure of my incompetence or inability to care for her.

I think that we have gotten so far off track that the relationship is fueled by hurt feelings, pettiness and an inability to get to the bottom of the issues and coming up with a plan for getting past them. I think that she blows things out of proportion and makes them a much bigger deal than they really are. We have talked about separation recently. We have sex a few times a month – when SHE feels like we are emotionally connected and in a good place. She has told me she loves me once in the past 8 months.

Here are some examples of recent issues that lead to major arguments:

1. I sent her a text telling her that “you looked incredibly sexy in your towel this morning.” On the same day on the grocery list I wrote “hot sensual lovemaking.” Her response that night was “how could you possibly think this was a good idea. I have told you before that this makes me feel cheap and I don’t like it. We are not there. You are not living in reality.” Of course this is said in a heated way where she asks me questions trying to get me to agree to the absurdity of my actions. She told me that “maybe we should just not be having sex” if this is all I can think about and all I want her for. She is frustrated and tells me that all the progress we have made in the last two weeks is totally gone now. Ironically this past weekend when I get out of the shower, she tells me she’s horny and wants to have sex – which we do.

2. This morning, she is upset because she is sick. I grilled pork loin for dinner the night before that had been in the freezer for about six months. She has a sensitive stomach (lactose intolerant) and apparently it made her sick. She talks to me about how I just don’t think about her and how I am not a partner that has her back. I know she is sensitive but just don’t think this would make her sick. Of course I push back telling her that I didn’t realize she was that sensitive. My cooking dinner was in response to her criticism that I do not do things around the house.

3. A few more items; (i) We are in bed together this morning (which is rare on a weekday). Both working from home. We hang out a bit in bed and cuddle. She asks “so what’s the plan.” My response is that we get up and start working. She gets out of the shower and tells me “every time you wake up with me I am frustrated.” “You don’t think of me. You don’t tell me that I should get out of bed and get ready. You don’t think of anyone but yourself.” This is apparently an example of how I do not care about here.

WTF? I tell her that she should just get up and get ready. I would do the same thing. That she shouldn’t feel pressure to hang out with me. (ii) last night we are working on a puzzle togheter. It is getting late. She tells me this morning that she is frustrated with me because I do not suggest that she go to bed. Apparently this is an example of me not caring about her. It also apparently shows that I couldn’t be a good father because I do not think of anyone but myself. (iii) I am criticized because I don’t think about what we need for the week regarding food and groceries and I leave it all to her. This morning I talk about what we need from the grocery store. My choices are criticized as unhealthy and unreasonable. I ask her what she would get and she doesn’t answer – she says “I just don’t think you really care. Whey would we get those things, we are trying to eat healthy.”

I feel like I am going crazy – that no matter what I try to do it is wrong. Everything I do is characterized as me not thinking about her, being selfish or not being competent. 

I feel like giving up on this and just walking out. I have communicated this to her in the past and she pushes back on this and things get better for a couple of weeks.

About four months ago we tried MC, but she stopped it because she thought it was too surface and she had issues she needed to address in IC that would let her know if her doubts about our relationship were her own issues or our issues. I’ve gone to IC as well and it has been insightful. We are planning on going to a new MC that focuses on emotionally focused therapy, which is apparently more in depth than our last MC.

I’m not sure I want to do this anymore. I feel like giving up and starting over with someone that is more laid back and doesn’t filter every action as a litmus test for my investment in her and the relationship. She senses this from me and perhaps this causes her insecurity. I want to break this cycle and have a good relationship, but don't seem to be able to do it with her.


----------



## F-102

Question 1: Do you have kids?

Question 2: Have you considered that there may be someone else?


----------



## WorldsApart

Bigrascal said:


> “You don’t think of me. You don’t tell me that I should get out of bed and get ready. You don’t think of anyone but yourself.” This is apparently an example of how I do not care about here.
> ...
> (ii) last night we are working on a puzzle togheter. It is getting late. She tells me this morning that she is frustrated with me because I do not suggest that she go to bed. Apparently this is an example of me not caring about her. It also apparently shows that I couldn’t be a good father because I do not think of anyone but myself.


You're her husband, not her father. She's an adult, and is capable of getting in and out of bed at an appropate time for herself. Claiming it's your fault is simply a **** test.

As far as claiming you'd be a poor father because you don't treat your wife like a child is, well, childish


----------



## dojo

If you don't have any other commitments (kids), pack your backs. This is not a marriage and she's a witch. Sorry. I have my own 'PMSing', but nothing like this. If you're not good for her, then just find someone who'd appreciate you. Let her know you're thinking about separating and see how she's dealing with it. Maybe she needs a wake up call, maybe she needs to be shown the door.


----------



## alphaomega

Well, your passing some of the fitness tests, but not all of them. The truth is, after manning up, maybe your wife just isn't what you need in your life. It does happen. Hopefully you can get past this, though.

Here are some examples of recent issues that lead to major arguments:

1. I sent her a text telling her that “you looked incredibly sexy in your towel this morning.” On the same day on the grocery list I wrote “hot sensual lovemaking.” Her response that night was “how could you possibly think this was a good idea. I have told you before that this makes me feel cheap and I don’t like it. We are not there. You are not living in reality.” Of course this is said in a heated way where she asks me questions trying to get me to agree to the absurdity of my actions. She told me that “maybe we should just not be having sex” if this is all I can think about and all I want her for. She is frustrated and tells me that all the progress we have made in the last two weeks is totally gone now. Ironically this past weekend when I get out of the shower, she tells me she’s horny and wants to have sex – which we do.

*Reply: Of course I'm living in reality. I have a real hardon right now. Care to fix it for me? (insert your winking here)

Alternately: "I am having a hard time understanding your argument. Can you just stop talking and get naked already?" (Insert your winking here, too)*


2. This morning, she is upset because she is sick. I grilled pork loin for dinner the night before that had been in the freezer for about six months. She has a sensitive stomach (lactose intolerant) and apparently it made her sick. She talks to me about how I just don’t think about her and how I am not a partner that has her back. I know she is sensitive but just don’t think this would make her sick. Of course I push back telling her that I didn’t realize she was that sensitive. My cooking dinner was in response to her criticism that I do not do things around the house.
*Response: Well, your more than welcome to cook your own dinner from now on. Of course, if you want to discuss this with me in a less blaming fashion, maybe we can come up with a food plan that works for you.*


3. A few more items; (i) We are in bed together this morning (which is rare on a weekday). Both working from home. We hang out a bit in bed and cuddle. She asks “so what’s the plan.” My response is that we get up and start working. She gets out of the shower and tells me “every time you wake up with me I am frustrated.” “You don’t think of me. You don’t tell me that I should get out of bed and get ready. You don’t think of anyone but yourself.” This is apparently an example of how I do not care about here.
*Reply: Hey Hon. I didn't realize I had a kid already. Would you like me to put your diaper on too. (roll eyes here).*



The fact of the matter, is that you can't let her affect you like that. You need to disassociate yourself from her own emotions. After a bit of practice, it ends up being easy. Always act like your the most happiest, in control person in the world. Don't get sucked into her fitness tests like that and take them personally.

You also need to read up on Boundaries in the Men's Clubhouse too. It gives advise on how to enforce them in your relationship.


----------



## COGypsy

dojo said:


> If you don't have any other commitments (kids), pack your backs. This is not a marriage and she's a witch. Sorry. I have my own 'PMSing', but nothing like this. If you're not good for her, then just find someone who'd appreciate you. Let her know you're thinking about separating and see how she's dealing with it. Maybe she needs a wake up call, maybe she needs to be shown the door.


:iagree:

Is she still in counseling too? Otherwise, I don't see things getting any better if you're the only one. She's kind of nutty!

There's no lactose in pork, why on earth would anyone think it would make her sick. 

And if my husband told me it was time for me to go to bed, I would! In the spare bed in my office! 

It sounds like she's using a classic abuser's tactic called "crazymaking" in order to keep you doing things for her. While she may or may not neccessarily actually be abusive, it's a standard maneuver. In less malicious terms, we'd call it "moving the goal". She says she wants one thing, but no matter what you do to deliver, it's never the right thing. Or if it happens to be the right thing on Tuesday, it'll surely be the wrong thing on Thursday. So if she was happy you told her to go to bed tonight, if you did it on Sunday, she'd call you controlling for trying to boss her around. See what I mean? It keeps you constantly off balance and constantly dancing around her trying to play a game with no real rules. 

You aren't going to be able to stop this cycle with her because she's the one driving it. With the game she's playing, you CAN'T be right or else she loses the control that she HAS to have. If that's not an issue she's working, you're both spinning your wheels. I'd talk to your IC about doing MC at this point. In a lot of cases where one partner exhibits these behaviors, the only thing that MC accomplishes is giving them more ammunition to use against the one they're trying to control. I'd be willing to bet that at this point, any "opening up emotionally" done in MC would be entirely on your part and you'd be the one left vulnerable---and not in a good, build-your-relationship kind of way.


----------



## Bigrascal

Thanks for the comments guys. No kids. Don't think there is someone else. I've checked her phone/text records as the account is in my name and look at her email on her phone every once in a while to see if there's anything out of the ordinary. 

Interestingly,she has recently accused me of being secretive and thinks I could cheat easily. Women have shown an interest in me in the past and my work environment is filled with young women. She is insecure about this.

I'd like to work this out, but I honestly feel like she just doesn't have the social skills to know how to be able to argue fairly or ask me for what she wants. 

She was married before and her ex H had depression issues and stopped working and looked to her to support him - took her savings, had her pay off his student loans etc. I think many of her issues stem from this - she has a fear of having this happen again. 

A few weeks ago we agreed to separate, I packed my stuff in boxes to show her that it was real. The next morning she had unpacked my stuff and wanted to work it out. Things had gotten better. We talked about arguing differently and making a renewed commitment, but now she is back to her old ways. She is a control freak and everything needs to be done the "right" way - from packing the car to raking leaves. If it's not done the right way - you are incompetent. 

As an aside, she takes anxiety medicine has few friends and has a victim mentality. The mutual friend that introduced us recently told me that she was a ball buster in previous relationships and kept her boyfriends' ball in her purse (would have been nice to know this years ago). This never happened to me when we were dating b/c I was able to put her in her place. But now, she is breaking me down with the constant doubting of my actions. I walk on egg shells it seems - never knowing how she is going to act. There is no benefit of the doubt. There is no "you care about me and love me and I respect you despite the fact I am mad at you now." Instead it's "you are incompetent, how could I have children with you, you don't get me and this ridiculous thing you did only evidences my belief that this is true. We are not connected. You just don't get me."

I don't know what I can do differently on my end to make things better. 

I'm very much thinking of telling her I want out over the weekend. I have lots of thinking to do. I'm looking at apartments this weekend too, just to have a fall back plan.

Your input is comforting.


----------



## magnoliagal

As a former controlling witch who was always right I'm going to say unless she seeks counseling it's best you run. 13 years ago my marriage almost ended because of me doing some crazy making stuff to my own husband. I can assure you there is no way in heck I could have ever changed without professional help. My controlling ways stemmed from an abusive childhood. Until I healed from that nothing was ever going to change.

So to answer your question is it really that bad? Yes it is.


----------



## Bigrascal

Thanks for the comments. A few of them really hit home:

1. Dissociate from her emotions: This is something that I really need to work on. I have a tendency to want to avoid upsetting her and thinking that when she is angry or out of control that I am the cause. 

2. Crazymaking: This is exactly the dynamic. I have said it to her more than once. I feel like the rules are changing and I can’t keep up. For example, she asks me to take more responsibility for her. I put a can of fix a flat in her trunk. Apparently it roles around in the back of her car - she chastises me for putting it in there without thinking and then refuses to put the can back in the car. It just sits in the garage. She goes on about how I try to do something nice but I just end up frustrating her.

Over the weekend a few things happened:

•	On Friday as I was parking the car, she asked me about the rules of serving in tennis. I apparently misunderstand her question (her question is vague). She asks me the same question 3 times with a heightened level of frustration and annoyance– which I answer the same way. We argue about how I just don’t get her and that I should understand her enough to know what she means even when she doesn’t say the exact right thing.

•	Saturday morning at 5am (admittedly early, but she is stirring) I attempt to get romantic. I am promptly shut down with – “we argued we are not in a good place and I don’t feel good.” Reasonable enough. I get up to watch tv. I fall asleep on the couch and then come back to bed to sleep for a couple of hours. She huffs, storms out of the room and slams the door. I ask her “what’s your deal?” She yells something at me. My next comment is that “I can’t do this anymore and I’m out.” I put on my clothes grab the keys and head for the door. She talks me down and we do a reasonably good job of resolving the issue from the night before and have a nice day together.

•	Sunday: We go for a walk. She goes on about how my parents do not have sex – and that their relationship is bad and weird and not close. My dad recently had his prostrate removed and I suggest that could be a reason. Her response is (in a very frustrated tone) “Bigrascal you are an educated man, why would you think that?” On the walk back she is disagreeable and unpleasant. When we get home I tell her I don’t like her comment that it doesn’t serve the relationship, me or us. It assumes I’m incompetent. She says that I say stupid things that are out of context and that it frustrates her. My response is that I just can’t see doing this anymore and that what I want us to separate. That this is too hard and it should be easier.

She says she “kind of” feels the same way. We have a brief conversation about the decision and that it is the right decision and that she doesn’t want to waiver back and forth (which we have in the past two weeks) and she wants to keep her emotions out of it “a business decision.” She understands that we don’t have lots invested and we aren’t so intertwined at this point that separation/divorce makes sense. We both exhibit concern that MC would not help us build a base that maybe was never there. That we would go to MC and simply learn how to get along but not have passion or connection. We both agree that this is the right decision.

So for the rest of the day we interact very well, she wears her new “sex” jeans that she knows get me going, we cuddle on the couch, she gives me a massage, she gives me a “manicure,” she makes my favorite meal and we have sex (initiated by me). She calls me “honey” all day. We grow grocery shopping and plan out our meals for the week.

Later that night we have a long discussion about how she had wanted me to give up a physical office in favor of working from home which would save a considerable sum of money and with that money how we could have saved for a house and gotten in a better financial position. She views my keeping the office as a bad decision that makes it difficult for her to respect me and trust that I can make good decisions.

She seems to be directing the conversation to the future (e.g., if you did this, it would really fix things between us and make me respect you more and I would know we have a direction). She also tells me that because I never made that decision, it is clear that our future together was never very important to me. 

I feel like running from this relationship. I feel like the decision to separate is a good decision and it is what I should do. However, I also feel like I may be making a rash decision born out of frustration and that I should give MC a chance. Part of me feels like If she can admit that she has controlling issues and can chill out and work on those issues, we could actually make things work –but how do you ever really know?

Her actions suggest she doesn’t believe that we are really separating. I think she is simply calling my bluff.


----------



## Hicks

Every time she disrespects you, make her stop acting disrespectfully to you. The way you do this is to tell her to stop speaking to you like that, or stop saying nonsensical things. Then act as if you said nothing and simply expect her to abide by your directive. IF she does not, tell her again. Don't reason and rationalize with her tyring to prove you are not incompetent. Just tell her to stop speaking to you like this. Say it calmly. Get more agressive and confident if she keeps doing it. Never buy into it. If need be, tell her to get out of your presence.


----------



## Deejo

Check out the thread on Fitness Tests if you are unfamiliar with the term.

Sounds like this negative feedback loop has become the norm for your relationship dynamic ... and it isn't close to normal.

You need to deliver on the consequences you outline. If you are hellbent on leaving the house, and she knows all she has to do is follow you and make nice for two hours to stop you ... you aren't changing anything.


----------



## Bigrascal

Thanks Hicks and Deejo. I've been pushing back on disrespectful comments and need to do a better job at it. My tendency a year ago had been to let them pass. I would then be angry and go passive aggressive by ignoring her etc. In the past six months I have gotten better at calling them out. I need to be better at it and address them as they arise just as you suggest and then let them go. 

In re-reading my post and thinking about her behavior, it's obvious she is just pushing back on separation in her own way. Perhaps for control. She couches this as being adult and doing things the right way - that we don't hate each other, I can stay at the house for as long as it takes to find a new place and nothing needs to be dramatic. Maybe that's just what she needs. She doesn't think I am serious about this right now - that I will waffle back and forth.

I'm not familiar with a negative feedback loop. I've googled it and will research it to see if there is a way to break that cycle.


----------



## Deejo

What I mean by 'negative feedback loop' is that despite your dissatisfaction with the exchange, you are empowering her, and sending the message that you are ok with how she treats you ... and as a result validate that her thinking that you aren't 'capable, competent, worthy of respect,' is correct ... which of course it isn't.

Basically, she doesn't believe that you will deliver on your word. She doesn't trust you.


----------



## Bigrascal

Thanks Deejo. I appreciate the clarification. This is exactly what has happened. It happened slowly, though. In the end, we teach people how to treat us. I have pushed back on the disrespect and need to do more. 

At this point, I don't know if I want to continue to try. 

Has anyone gone to MC (we were supposed to go to EFT MC - emotionally focused therapy) and renewed or developed an emotional connection with their spouse. I'm just not sure MC is worth it. I'm worried that it will teach us how to get along and avoid conflict, but not solve any underlying problem. We will be two people with a construct for dealing with each other, but no passion.

My hope is that by learning to get along, we could actually connect and learn to like/love each other again.

We went to MC for 4 months and it was all about writing down three gifts you will give to your spouse for the week and writing down 3 things you value in them. This new MC is supposed to be more in depth.


----------



## Lon

Aside from the fitness tests, it really sounds like either there are some kind of deep emotional problems she is experiencing or else it is a matter of love languages... what kind of things have you ever noticed that she actually LIKES?


----------



## Bigrascal

Lon said:


> Aside from the fitness tests, it really sounds like either there are some kind of deep emotional problems she is experiencing or else it is a matter of love languages... what kind of things have you ever noticed that she actually LIKES?


She would say that she only has issues with me and has never had them with anyone else. She doesn't think she has a problem. Her father is very anal and so is she. She was afraid of him growing up. Everything needs to be done correctly and when it is not she ha a problem. Her love language is quality time. Mine is touch. 

She likes talking, but it's hard for us as it devolves to annoyance and frustration.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bigrascal

The fact that you all are saying this really is that bad and that she may have some emotional issues is incredibly helpful and insightful. The "crazymaking" comment was eye opening. 

When you are so close to things you lose perspective. It concerns me that I have let this get so bad and let it go on for so long. I feel like I either should have ended this earlier or simply stood up to it earlier, though I really did try. At the same time I think I was probably half checked out. She does not bring out the best in me.

At this point, I told her on Sunday that I want to separate. We both agreed that this was a good idea - though I can't totally believe that his is what she wants. 

Sunday was a good day for us and so was last night. She is being incredibly pleasant. Making dinner, calling me honey, cuddling with me. I'm starting to second guess my decision. Over the last two days I have actually felt whole for the first time in a very long time. If we could bottle this, I feel like we could have a chance. 

However, I also believe that this is just a tactic on her part to regain control - either consciously or subconsciously. For the sake of having any credibility and respect from her, I feel like I need to go through with this to show her how serious I am or at the very least tell her what I have done so she can see that this is really what is happening.

Yesterday I put a deposit on an apartment that is available for immediate occupancy. Assuming I am approved I could move out within a week. Doing this was much, much easer than I thought. I thought it would take at least a month to find a place and move out.

I think the only way to move forward in the relationship is - ironically - to move forward on my own and see what happens.

Things may not get better between us, but I can at least be away from the craziness and negativity and get my self esteem back on track and focus on my business. 

I don't know if I will actually move out - it seems dramatic. I will talk to her tonight and let her know the path that I am on and see what happens. Last time I told her that I wanted to move out she cried about how scared she was to be alone -note she didn't cry about losing me or our relationship; that is pretty insightful.


----------



## joshbjoshb

Bigrascal, let me tell you something. You are in a bad place, and "I have to work on it" will lead you nowhere. You sound like a nice guy but your wife thinks that you are weak. You try to please her but she thinks that its because you have no backbone.

STOP!

If you cannot stop, your marriage is going to be ruined very fast.

This is what you MUST do to save it:

A) have a life outside your wife and marriage. Do things that you love. Go swimming, play golf, whatever. Doesn't matter. She must understand that she will not control your hobbies.

B) Never let her misery turn into yours. She is upset, that's fine. You don't have to be. She is yelling or arguing? she is entitled to her feelings, but you don't have to follow them.

This is the first and most important step in making sure that YOU are okay, and you will be okay even if you will need to divorce her (which I believe you won't).

and one more very important thing:

Talk, show your feeling, say that you are upset, raise your voice sometime, say "I don't like when" or "I like this", "I am angry" "I am upset" etc. It seems like you are trying to please her all the time. She is looking for a leader, not a follower - and you are not!.

I was there and I am still working on it, but I saw tremendous result - may it continue!


----------



## joshbjoshb

Bigrascal said:


> Last time I told her that I wanted to move out she cried about how scared she was to be alone -note she didn't cry about losing me or our relationship; that is pretty insightful.


You are so wrong. For the first time in your marriage you show real leadership, and she replies in kind... she is scared to be alone since she needs YOU with her.


----------



## Lon

BR, you say you don't know what she wants, yet you know that she loves quality time, and she is trying to control the situation to give you quality time with her and is being met with other offers of appreciation that she just doesn't see. Start speaking her language man. I'm not saying cast aside your own needs, but realize her actions are being driven by her own understanding of how to give and receive love to/from you. Maybe she is trying to be dominant in this regard because waiting seems to not be working. Once you start nurturing that love in a way that she can feel it most you can start to open the channels of communication again, show her your language and need for touch. It seems she loves cuddle time, then when she asks what you want to do you say time to get up and do something apart from each other - make a day to just cuddle and have nothing active planned, spend the afternoon in the same room and doing something (or nothing) together and realize you are doing it to give her what she needs.


----------



## Bigrascal

Thanks Lon and JoshBJOSHB: 

What you say about not letting her misery become mine is solid advice. It's something I have struggled with. I need to distance myself from it.

I also need to do better at having my own life outside of the relationship. Interestingly she pushes back on this. Eg., I brought up taking sailing lessons last year and she said "really that's how you are going to spend your summer." Cooking lessons too. She seems to view it as time away from "us." I need to stand up to this and just do my thing. I guess this is about her "quality time love language."

I do believe she has serious issues, though. So has incredibly controlling behavior that leads to her being disrespectful. My aversion to conflict has gotten me to this point. I understand I need to embrace conflict and shut it/her down. We have "complimentary issues" that feed off of each other. In past relationships I never had these issues with someone. 

Right now I plan to move forward with my threat of ending it and moving out. If I back down on it now I think I lose even more credibility and respect. If I can show her that I am serious, then maybe It will push her to try to work on her issues.


----------



## joshbjoshb

I wish you the best. I read your posts and see my wife... - more, myself! But I do work and try, and still in middle of the road.


----------



## Bigrascal

Thanks Josh. It's comforting to know that you have made progress. I hope that I can get to there too. If you have any tips for what's worked for you it would be great to hear them.

I talked with her last night about moving out and that I had put a deposit on an apartment and called a moving company. The reaction wasn't what I expected. She called me secretive and sneaky and disrespectful. Which is somewhat disingenuous on her part and to be expected. There wasn't lots of emotion on her part like there was a few weeks ago. I hoped that it wold be a wake up call for her, but perhaps we are past that. Maybe I just looked like I have no backbone and was weak.

We agreed that we both weren't 100% sure and that one of us needs to be before we make any quick decisions. At this point, we have agreed to wait until one of is sure. She asked me to think about this for the rest of the week to see how I feel and that she would do the same. 

She expressed concern that this shouldn't be so hard and that maybe we are just different people. I don't know how you know when something is too hard or when to give up or not. 

She also really wanted to talk about finances and having more insight into what my business makes and helping me manage the money aspect of it. 

We agreed to go to a therapist to see if this is salvageable. It's a step in the right direction. 

In the meantime, I will work on myself, continue to man up, set boundaries, recognize fitness tests and pursue my own interests. I'm willing to let this go if that's where its going, but I'd like to have a good relationship with this woman.


----------



## joshbjoshb

Well, let's see where is the road taking you. My wife is refusing to go to a therapist which, imo, is coming from the same insecurity that causes her to act the way she does.

If your wife is like mine, than you have to understand this:

She is the most insecure person in the world (well, not really the most but very close to it)
She has many emotional issues which she doesn't know how to deal with
She most likely grew up with a mother that has the same aforementiond issues.

What she need is to realize that, and to start go through a healing process.

But, you cant' wait till then. You have to take care of yourself and make sure that

You are not being stepped on, at any point!
You are not afraid to voice your emotions, and stop worrying too much if she will be insulted or not (I would not give this advice to anyone, only to nice guys like us - in the end of the day we will not hurt them, we will still be gentle)
You are not letting her emotions suck you as well. Someone just posted that their therapist told him that his wife wants him to own her depression. That was so right!

Again, much of luck to you and to all of us!


----------



## Hicks

The first thing you have to adress is being talked to disrespectfully.
For example, let's take the sailing course. You have to tell her "Stop speaking to me like I am a child. Whenever you are ready to do that we can discuss the sailing course". 

Her input as to why she does not want you to take that course can be valuable information, but you need to force her to speak to you in a respectful fashion.

Now, on the day she is being pleasant, you tell her Wife, you are treating me great, and this is how I want to be treated. I appreciate this positive and pleasant side of you. 

So, if you feel your wife is insecure, and she deals with it by being "controlling", why don't you ask yourself how you can make her feel less insecure? I'll bet her controlling nature goes away if you give her what she is looking for.


----------



## Bigrascal

JoshB - I've read some of your posts and they are similar to my situation. Especially your belief that your W lacks a high level of EQ.

Hicks - I think your comment is spot on. The sailing comment is a good example of something I would have let slide previously. My response probably was (in a meek voice, annoyed or confused voice) "well I guess not, it was just a thought." Her comment seemed so minor that it seemed unnecessary to bring up later. But, it caused resentment on my part and caused me to pull back. It also caused her to lose respect for me for not standing up to her.

These comments seem subtle, but I have done a good/better job of calling her out on them in the moment. Sometimes I just don't recognize it's happening though. The fitness test thread on here is great for helping you recognize some of these. About a month ago a really focused on pushing back on these and by the end of the week she actually told me she loved me for the first time in a long time. So there is power in passing these.

This goes to your comment Hicks - I think that by withdrawing from her (due to my lack of confronting her disrespect) she actually feels like she has less control - which causes her to go more nutty. In IC I was told that by containing her outbursts by setting my own boundaries, it would give her a level of comfort. 

Knowing this is easy. It seems like the fix, but implementing it takes practice and requires a level of diligence. You always have to be "on" and ready for the disrespect. Hopefully it becomes second nature. 

While I believe in fitness tests and have seen the benefit of responding to them, the situation is especially difficult when you are dealing with a particularly aggressive/controlling and anal wife. The fitness tests aren't usually light hearted - they are pointed and emasculating and sometimes they are said in the heat of an argument where responding with humor just doesn't seem appropriate. But I still have lots to learn.

What bothers me is that she like to tell me she never had this problem with anyone else - that being with me causes her to act like this. The message is that it's my fault - which is a load of cr*p. My friends know her and her exes - it's just not true.


----------



## Hicks

Bigrascal said:


> What bothers me is that she like to tell me she never had this problem with anyone else - that being with me causes her to act like this. The message is that it's my fault - which is a load of cr*p. My friends know her and her exes - it's just not true.


Response:
Wife, if you ever say that again, I am going to pack your bags and move you out. Or, Wife, let's call up all your old boyfriends and see which one wants you back.

Never allow yourself to be compared to an ex.


----------



## joshbjoshb

Hicks said:


> So, if you feel your wife is insecure, and she deals with it by being "controlling", why don't you ask yourself how you can make her feel less insecure? I'll bet her controlling nature goes away if you give her what she is looking for.


Because no one can change anyone. You can't force her to take care of her emotional issues. She has to get up and do it herself.

But till then, you can and should demand respect, and make sure you are not getting infected by this.

You see, if you get depressed when she is insulting you, she won. She was looking to make you just that. She cannot tolerate someone who is happy so close to her when she is not.

You should feel bad for her! You really should. But you should run away from trying to pleas her. Rather focus on making yourself a real man - which she will benefit from greatly!


----------



## Bigrascal

Just venting. 

Had lunch with her today. Not planned. I called her to let her know that I scheduled a therapy session (this is the session for us to supposedly determine if separating is a good idea). She said she could reschedule her IC to make this appointment. She also told me she was downtown - she usually lets me know the day before, but I came home late last night.

We have a minor disagreement about timing. I'm not sure where she is exactly for her meeting and how far away it is from the sandwich shop we go to. I say let's meet in 15 minutes. She says 5 - she's not that far away. I say fine 5 minutes. 

I can feel the tinges of frustration starting to open up on her part (that we are not on the same page etc., with timing), but remain unaffected. 

I arrive on time and it takes her 15 minutes to get there. I didn't bring it up.


I fail a sh!t test - where I grab chips from a top bin and she says "really your not gonna help the guy out and grab from the bottom." I shrug, pause and say sure and put them back and grab from the bottom. Ugh - why! Totally submissive on my part.

She suggests we sit outside. We sit outside and talk briefly, things feel a bit strained but I do my best to remain upbeat and unaffected. I think I do a good job. We make small talk about how our days are going. She as usual is having a hectic day and seems slightly stressed.

She spends a good part of the meal sending an email and looking through a file - she apologizes for it. I say its fine and make a call. She talks about our bank account and she asks how much I've put in and says "you know we have bills coming out." I say "I know." She says "we can't let the balance go below 700. How much is in there."

I have a receipt in my pocket and tell her the balance. She says "ok I guess we are ok." I say "you know what, let me deposit XXX amount in there this afternoon; the bank is across from my office - just so we have it." She shrugs and says "oh, ok."

We end the meal. I go in for a hug/kiss and she goes for a kiss on my check. 

I have work to do on passing Sh!t tests. I know they are going to come and I can't believe I failed such a simple one. I need to "steel myself" for these interactions. I also need to be unaffected by her mood and emotions. I was so ready for her to be upset by something when she got to the restaurant:

"why didn't you just get our sandwiches since you were here first" or 

"why did you already get our sandwiches they are going to be cold now" 

I'm almost scared of her mood. I could feel my stress level rise waiting for her to arrive and expecting her to be upset about something.

Work to do: 

Expect the sh!t test to come; recognize it and call it out;
work on being unaffected by her mood/emotion. Being "worried" that she will be upset is really no way to live. Not attractive and not strong. I go in phases where I see the "matrix" and sometimes I just don't pay attention and I get blind sided.


----------



## Conrad

Rascal,

C'mon dude.

She pulls out her phone/computer.

YOU PULL OUT YOURS!

Her actions tell you, "I - and whoever I'm writing to - are MORE IMPORTANT than you."

You don't see this?

Even the score man.. quickly.


----------



## AFEH

Or just get up and walk away. Later when she asks why you walked away just say your time is important, she wasn't communicating with you and you have work to do.


----------



## Bigrascal

Thanks guys. Conrad - Actually, I did just that! I was put off by it. I got out my phone and called a client about a matter. It was a very "alpha" phone conversation - which I try to take when she is around. So, I am getting there.

She is so caught up in her world, and the supposed stress of her job. We are talking about separating and moving out. You would think that WE would be more important to her than a file that is "blowing up." It is sending a message about who/what is more important. That behavior needs to be stopped or confronted or matched.


----------



## Conrad

Bigrascal said:


> Thanks guys. Conrad - Actually, I did just that! I was put off by it. I got out my phone and called a client about a matter. It was a very "alpha" phone conversation - which I try to take when she is around. So, I am getting there.
> 
> She is so caught up in her world, and the supposed stress of her job. We are talking about separating and moving out. You would think that WE would be more important to her than a file that is "blowing up." It is sending a message about who/what is more important. That behavior needs to be stopped or confronted or matched.


Rascal,

If you don't stand up for you, no one will.


----------



## Bigrascal

I'm on it. I will crack this nut. The fact that I have let this happen p!sses me off more than you can imagine. Everything you do either creates attraction or decreases it and I'm tired of acting like a p***y.


----------



## ManDup

Bigrascal said:


> We have a minor disagreement about timing. I'm not sure where she is exactly for her meeting and how far away it is from the sandwich shop we go to. I say let's meet in 15 minutes. She says 5 - she's not that far away. I say fine 5 minutes.
> 
> I can feel the tinges of frustration starting to open up on her part (that we are not on the same page etc., with timing), but remain unaffected.
> 
> I arrive on time and it takes her 15 minutes to get there. I didn't bring it up.


You blew all this big-time. She was becoming frustrated in the first place because you were giving in to her 5 minute timeframe when you both knew she wasn't going to make that. It's ok to make her wait, and say, I'll be there in 15, even after she says she'll be there in 5. "5- it's not that far away." "Well, I'll be there in 15." You've got things to do man, people to see. For now you should err on the side of making her wait.

Second, when she actually was late, call her out on that! Jeez man, you let her walk all over you before you even sat down.



Bigrascal said:


> I fail a sh!t test - where I grab chips from a top bin and she says "really your not gonna help the guy out and grab from the bottom." I shrug, pause and say sure and put them back and grab from the bottom. Ugh - why! Totally submissive on my part.


Definitely fail number two. You say, "Look, you want to restock their shelves, go ahead. You and I are just going to do things differently sometimes. That's ok. You may have learned one way and I've learned another. That doesn't make your way right, and it's very disrespectful of you to sweat all this small stuff with me. Let it go." And nip it in the bud, right then and there, in public.



Bigrascal said:


> She suggests we sit outside. We sit outside and talk briefly, things feel a bit strained but I do my best to remain upbeat and unaffected. I think I do a good job. We make small talk about how our days are going. She as usual is having a hectic day and seems slightly stressed.


And fail again. She shouldn't be leading here, or anywhere. It's driving her crazy, because her dad is so take charge. If she tries to lead, pull back on that leash just for practice. "No, I want to sit inside." even if it's a nice day out.



Bigrascal said:


> She spends a good part of the meal sending an email and looking through a file - she apologizes for it. I say its fine and make a call. She talks about our bank account and she asks how much I've put in and says "you know we have bills coming out." I say "I know." She says "we can't let the balance go below 700. How much is in there."
> 
> I have a receipt in my pocket and tell her the balance. She says "ok I guess we are ok." I say "you know what, let me deposit XXX amount in there this afternoon; the bank is across from my office - just so we have it." She shrugs and says "oh, ok."


Fail and fail. I've lost count. I don't mean to be harsh here, but you're really ticking her off. You've already handled the finances. Going and putting more in is being led around by the nose for no reason. "ok I guess we are ok." "Yes, I'm on top of it, don't worry." is the right response. 

The first fail was saying "it's fine." It's far better to actually accept an apology at face value, as if you were actually wronged, which you were. "Thank you for apologizing. My time is important too." Good move on the followup of making your own call. Your time is important. You matter, man. Get it through your head.



Bigrascal said:


> We end the meal. I go in for a hug/kiss and she goes for a kiss on my check.


I don't think it's in your best interest to initiate physical contact after so much disrespect.



Bigrascal said:


> I have work to do on passing Sh!t tests. I know they are going to come and I can't believe I failed such a simple one. I need to "steel myself" for these interactions. I also need to be unaffected by her mood and emotions. I was so ready for her to be upset by something when she got to the restaurant:
> 
> "why didn't you just get our sandwiches since you were here first" or
> 
> "why did you already get our sandwiches they are going to be cold now"
> 
> I'm almost scared of her mood. I could feel my stress level rise waiting for her to arrive and expecting her to be upset about something.
> 
> Work to do:
> 
> Expect the sh!t test to come; recognize it and call it out;
> work on being unaffected by her mood/emotion. Being "worried" that she will be upset is really no way to live. Not attractive and not strong. I go in phases where I see the "matrix" and sometimes I just don't pay attention and I get blind sided.


Have to work on tests? Do you ever. If you'd passed half of those you would have no problems. Be confident, be a man. You're getting plenty of opportunities. Don't give her an inch until you've taken the mile that you're behind. Really.


----------



## F-102

When my W asks if I'm going to do something a certain way, I just look her in the eye and say "Yes", or if she asks why, I say "Because I can". Eventually, she stops asking. Not being a pr*ck, just my way of letting her know that I don't like being "coached".

In the meantime, take the sailing lessons. I think of Ishmael:

"The sea, where every man as in a mirror finds-himself."


----------



## Bigrascal

I just started re-reading the fitness test thread. It's inspiring. I have two things going on here:

1. An unhealthy aversion to conflict which I will solve; and
2. A controlling anal woman with emotional issues that thinks she is right all the time.

So it's challenging. But I will get good at this - not for her, but for me. I can't change her emotional issues, but I can change my actions.

I made a point of being ready for the fitness tests last night. I think I averted many of them from the start.

She texts me that she is on her way home from work. I start making dinner - not something I normally do, and am criticized sometimes for not doing. I make what I want - don't ask for her input. She gets home. I give her one choice - chicken or beef. She says she doesn't know and asks what I want. I say I already pulled the chicken out so we are having chicken. she changes and I give her a job of stirring the cooking vegetables.

She cuddles up next to me while I am standing and asks what movie we are seeing this weekend -not something we talked about previously. Food is done. She grabs a coke and sits down. I say "a coke really" she says "yeah I know I should have something else and she goes and gets water." 

I give her two choices for the evening - a movie or watching tv while we work on a puzzle (don't ask - she's all into puzzles lately). She chooses option 2. We watch tv and I pull her close to me on the couch.

Fitness tests seemed to be pretty much avoided though I got two later that night.

1. We go to bed; she's reading I say "do you want to talk?" Her: "if you have something interesting to say." Me: "wow that's rude." 

2. Later in the evening, her stomach growls loudly. I say "my stomach is doing the same thing." Her, annoyed: "Big, you know that my stomach does that when I lay down and it doesn't mean anything." Me: "I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about me. My stomach has been messed up all week. Is that how you talk to someone you care about, really?" She back peddles and we have a convo.

Baby steps and not perfect (why on earth did I ask if she wanted to talk?), but I will get there. Going to go finish re-reading the fitness test thread now. It's golden.


----------



## joshbjoshb

Bigrascal said:


> I just started re-reading the fitness test thread. It's inspiring. I have two things going on here:
> 
> 1. An unhealthy aversion to conflict which I will solve; and
> 2. A controlling anal woman with emotional issues that thinks she is right all the time.
> 
> So it's challenging. But I will get good at this - not for her, but for me. I can't change her emotional issues, but I can change my actions.
> 
> I made a point of being ready for the fitness tests last night. I think I averted many of them from the start.
> 
> She texts me that she is on her way home from work. I start making dinner - not something I normally do, and am criticized sometimes for not doing. I make what I want - don't ask for her input. She gets home. I give her one choice - chicken or beef. She says she doesn't know and asks what I want. I say I already pulled the chicken out so we are having chicken. she changes and I give her a job of stirring the cooking vegetables.
> 
> She cuddles up next to me while I am standing and asks what movie we are seeing this weekend -not something we talked about previously. Food is done. She grabs a coke and sits down. I say "a coke really" she says "yeah I know I should have something else and she goes and gets water."
> 
> I give her two choices for the evening - a movie or watching tv while we work on a puzzle (don't ask - she's all into puzzles lately). She chooses option 2. We watch tv and I pull her close to me on the couch.
> 
> Fitness tests seemed to be pretty much avoided though I got two later that night.
> 
> 1. We go to bed; she's reading I say "do you want to talk?" Her: "if you have something interesting to say." Me: "wow that's rude."
> 
> 2. Later in the evening, her stomach growls loudly. I say "my stomach is doing the same thing." Her, annoyed: "Big, you know that my stomach does that when I lay down and it doesn't mean anything." Me: "I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about me. My stomach has been messed up all week. Is that how you talk to someone you care about, really?" She back peddles and we have a convo.
> 
> Baby steps and not perfect (why on earth did I ask if she wanted to talk?), but I will get there. Going to go finish re-reading the fitness test thread now. It's golden.


I don't like your tone so much. She is reading, let her read. The fact you are "forcing" yourself upon her (by rebuking her why she is not interested in talking) you might get the opposite response.

If she is reading, just get in to bed, a good night kiss and go the sleep. 

It also sounds to me you are making big deals out of little things... you harsh response "is that how you talk about someone you care" is away too harsh for the situation. Instead, a big of humor and smile would do better.

Remember, the secret is NOT to try and control her (which this is what you are trying to do!) but rather be someone who she admires and respect. If you end up sounding like a commander too much, than something is wrong.


----------



## Hicks

I think you did fine.
All you need to do is stand up for yourself.


----------



## sinnister

She seems to be directing the conversation to the future (e.g., if you did this, it would really fix things between us and make me respect you more and I would know we have a direction). She also tells me that because I never made that decision, it is clear that our future together was never very important to me. 
------------

Which means "if you do what I say, I would respect you more".

Run.


----------



## Bigrascal

Thanks for the feedback. I think I can be better at pushing back in a witty or funny way to keep these on the lighter side. 

I don't want to be a commander, but I know I need to make an active effort to lead and sometimes I just want her to let me lead - for it to happen naturally like in other relationships. Just stand down chick!

There's so much irony here. I have a W that is controlling and wants everything to be done the "right" way, but in reality doesn't want to be in control at all.

Interestingly, she has told me a few times that she wants to be treated like a 10 year old girl. While that sounds very odd, I think I understand what she means. And what she means is not nearly as strange as it sounds. She is asking for leadership and direction and security. 

But, and here is the rub, she has a really, really hard time giving up control - this is her issue. She needs the control to feel secure, but wont' give it up.

I get resentful b/c I'm not trusted and deemed incompetent. I pull back and become less emotionally invested. She feels less secure and becomes more controlling. It's a hell of a cycle to be caught up in.

Not passing fitness tests is part of the problem, but not the whole problem by any means.


----------



## Conrad

The root of the problem is that she "gets to you" and she sees it.

If you are that weak and emotionally unstable with her, how is she to trust you to lead?

Think about it.


----------



## Bigrascal

I need to be unaffected by her mood/emotion.


----------



## Conrad

Bigrascal said:


> I need to be unaffected by her mood/emotion.


Have fun with it.

You know what she's going to do.

Don't try to avoid it. Embrace it. Tease... and play.

My wife snuggled into my lap last night. She looked up at me and said, "You seem pre-occupied".

I said, "How does that seem?"

She smiled and laughed.

I don't need to tell you what happened later.


----------



## ManDup

I thought you did alright, because as I said you had to lay down the law a bit just to catch up. Yes, we can all do better, but the main thing was for you to stop failing the tests. And the advice others have given is of course solid, but don't feel bad about how you did. Baby steps as you said, and lots of practice. 

You don't have to be controlling, just in control of yourself.


----------



## Bigrascal

Passed the sh!t tests last night. Weren't too many. Her telling me I tell the same stories all the time (me: how do you put up with me). There were a couple of others.

We cuddled on the couch. I initiated that though. She seems distant. Not cuddling at night. Closes closet door when she changes.

I'm not in a good place today. I looked at her phone b/c it was laying out. She sent a text to a friend. They are going to look for furniture tomorrow. I moved in to her house and brought my furniture.

Earlier in the week. we talked about separating and I had put a deposit on an apartment.

We talked about taking things slow and thinking this week about where we are going and what we are doing. We have a MC appointment wednesday.

I know her looking at furniture is to be expected. It sounds like she has made up her mind, though. I want to talk to her today and lay things on the line. I would like this to work. I'm not 100 percent sure we can/should do this and neither is she. I don't know where her head is at.

I'm hurting right now guys. Doesn't feel good. I'm rambling a bit shocked, but know I shouldn't be.

how does looking for furniture jive with - "hey what movie are we seeing this weekend?" And "where are we going to dinner saturday night?" Seems so inconsistent.


----------



## Conrad

Stop initiating.

The more you chase her, the more she devalues you.

What do you like to do for fun - personally?

This question does not include her.


----------



## Bigrascal

Agreed to separate this morning. She wanted to go to an MC session to "make sure this was the right decision for us." 

She also said b/c she knows she doesn't want to work on this anymore that I need to hear what the therapist says (i.e., its not worth it/won't work if she isn't committed).

She had so much hope two weeks ago. Now this. She doesn't want to work on it; hasn't wanted to for a while. She was pushing the therapist at the same time saying that because I don't think this is a good decision that maybe she is wrong and she is willing to listen. 

We are going to look for furniture for her today and some kitchen stuff for my new apartment. This is surreal, but I'll be strong. Was going to hang with a buddy, but think dealing with this is more important.

This is a bit shocking. Ugh.


----------



## Conrad

Rascal,

Why are you going with her?

And, I damned sure hope you aren't planning to pay for her stuff.

Personally, I'd go hang with the buddy.


----------



## Bigrascal

Conrad said:


> Rascal,
> 
> Why are you going with her?
> 
> And, I damned sure hope you aren't planning to pay for her stuff.
> 
> Personally, I'd go hang with the buddy.


Idk. She gave me a big speech about being strong for eachother and doing things the right way. I'm not buying sh!t. I'll bail soon. My temptation is to just leave ASAP. She wants me there till the end of the month so she can get a deal on furniture. She said she won't know what to do once I'm out. I respect your advice Conrad. Maybe I should
just leave ASAP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Do it.

Make her get off the fence.

It's the only way to really know.


----------



## Bigrascal

Well. This seems to have been one big sh!t test. I don't think she really had any intention of buying furniture. She was pushing me - calling my bluff. We shopped for her stuff, had lunch and then I took her to Home Depot to get some boxes and moving stuff. I packed in front of her. She offered to help and then you could feel her tinge of anxiety. 

We had a long talk about all the things that are wrong and mistakes we have made and fixing them. I said I could own up to mine but I'm only half the problem here. She went from having no heart in this and not wanting to try to wanting to try. I should have seen this given the last few weeks she was "all in with hope" to "kinda thinking this wasn't worth fixing" to not wanting to work on this at all. She is all over the board. 

At this point we are on track to go to MC next week and no moving out. For now. It's just one talk.

Of course she just left with her friend to go to IKEA to look at couches this morning. This was already pre-planned, but she didn't call it off. But we have been back and forth on this for three weeks and I can't say I blame her. Things could change next week.


----------



## Conrad

You'd be surprised how often that's "all it really is".

Start passing these babies - as it appears you're on to it - and the dynamic may change dramatically.

Remember .... you need your edge. You need to be mysterious. Have her ask you what you're thinking. Don't chase. Cool and strong.

When SHE asks about the relationship, it's ok to be straight, direct, and honest.

Do not initiate the conversations. This will likely be somewhat difficult as you loved your mother and when she was upset, it was up to you to find out what was wrong and fix it.

That's not how this is.

The sooner you learn it, the better off you'll be.


----------



## ManDup

It sounds like you're doing better and that's helping for sure. Keep up the good work and don't let your guard down for a long time, if ever. She needs a strong man, go be one. You can share that with her at the appropriate time, but not in so many words, like you're doing it for her. Because in the end, you are doing it for you. "Listen, I was a little lost for a while when we got together and had to define our respective roles, but now I know what I want and I'm going after it." Something like that. If she presses you for what you want, keep it mysterious and/or keep it about you and your mission/goals, not about her. She will follow if given the chance.


----------



## F-102

So interesting...she saw that you were going to call her bluff, and did a 180!


----------



## Bigrascal

Yeah. Manipulative more than interesting. She says she's not playing games, but when I told her last week I couldn't do this anymore and we had agreed to separate, she was pleasant and intimate with me and doing things I like - almost showing me what I would be missing.

Her hardline might have been a push back on me taking a hardline. You can't take what she says at face value. You have to look at her actions and the cumulative effect of what she has said over the past few weeks to get a feel for where her head is at with this. 

Still - it was only one conversation and things have been a bit chilly since. Not like two weeks ago when things were lovey dovey afterward.

I'm not leading with all the waivering and she is having difficulty trusting me - which is making her have to be ready for anything. I think this is why things feel distant and cold (among many other things).


----------



## Deejo

Discussion of these sorts of topics has taken place here for years.

And when we do discuss it, often a woman, sometimes a man will admonish all of this 'game playing'.

Few years back, I fell squarely in the camp of; "I don't like playing games. Let's be honest and treat each other like adults."

Sounds reasonable. Makes perfect sense.

Issue is that struggling relationships do not make sense, and are not reasonable.

Get to the place where you embrace the concept that ALL of it is a game ... and you win. You even get a prize.

It can mostly be a fun game. Sometimes it is a competitive game. Sometimes it is a game of defense. And others still are strategically geared to serve the long term benefit of the relationship, or to secure your own sense of self, if you recognize that your partner is no longer a partner.

The relationship dynamics between a man and woman are structured, like it or not. Every single interaction or exchange has a purpose, an outcome and a consequence. Some are extraordinarily trivial. Some are extraordinarily important. Being able to distinguish the two will serve anyone well. Being able to navigate those exchanges towards mutually beneficial outcomes for both partners cultivates good things for your relationship. Mess them up, misread, or respond poorly all of the time and you take your relationship in another direction.

Grasp this concept, and realize that it is something that you can influence for better or worse, EVERY SINGLE TIME you interact with your partner, and you are on your way.

It's all a game. Period.


----------



## Conrad

Deej,

All I can add to your post is "get used to it" - and "play to win".


----------



## Deejo

I don't presume that everyone will agree with me.

Referring to it as a game, in no way means that my goal is to play with someone's emotions. If anything, the opposite is true. Being able to perceive these interactions and their outcomes as a game, aided me in taking control of MY emotions, rather than feeling victimized by them.


----------



## Conrad

In fact, I've come to realize that "playing to win" means giving your partner what they "really" want.

Because then you get what you want.

And, that "is" winning, no matter how you slice it.

But, it doesn't mean anybody loses.




Deejo said:


> I don't presume that everyone will agree with me.
> 
> Referring to it as a game, in no way means that my goal is to play with someone's emotions. If anything, the opposite is true. Being able to perceive these interactions and their outcomes as a game, aided me in taking control of MY emotions, rather than feeling victimized by them.


----------



## Deejo

Conrad said:


> But, it doesn't mean anybody loses.


Never ceases to amaze me that people struggle to see that as the outcome of doing this work or taking these steps.


----------



## Bigrascal

Approaching it as a game helps me conceptualize it. It makes it less personal and less about me. Point of fact - she would probably do this to any man and has done this in past relationships (despite what she says). It's her personality and it's instinctive and it's just the way that it is.

Giving her what she really needs is what I'd like to do so I can get what I need. You just have to see past all the BS to get there.

Knowing this is helpful, but implementing it in the moment isn't always easy.


----------



## Bigrascal

Interesting night last night. Came home and the Sh!t tests were flying left and right.

1. I didn't bring my lunch like i said I would yesterday - all over me about it;
2. I didn't eat lunch that day - all over me about it.

Told her I just wasn't hungry and she pressed telling me that's not normal and how could I take care of a family if I couldn't take care of myself.

She then talked about me moving out and that our discussion yesterday wasn't about working on the relationship and that's not what we had decided. This was the biggest sh!t test of all. Total BS - this IS what we agreed upon; we would work on the relationship we would continue to try and no rash decisions and go to counseling.

I'm starting to see the matrix. She was pushing me to see if I would get frustrated and say "fine I'm leaving." She wants direction in this. She wants to know that I am in it. That's all it was. It wasn't real.

She told me she didn't want to work on it and that her heart wasn't in it and it wasn't fair for me to keep her in it. She was looking forward to having some peace and working on some projects she feels she has no time for. This was hard to hear, but something she has said before.

For the first time I REALLY didn't care about losing her. I know I will be ok without her and don't need what we have. It's a good place to be - a little scary, but I truly do not care anymore.

The conversation we had for the rest of the night was from that place and it felt "good."

She told me that:

1. she needs peace and stability - not chaos;
2. she need to trust me;
3. she needs for me to do what I say I will do;
4. she needs me not to "lie" to her - to trust her.

She believes that our lives are chaotic. She harped on me about planning financially for our future and how I don't talk to her about where we are going. She doesn't respect some of the business decisions I have made that have "hurt" us financially (keeping my office, keeping an employee on too long and using some savings to keep things afloat). Talking about going on a big vacation when we really shouldn't do that financially.

When I say I'm going to do something like take my lunch, she wants me to do it and when I don't do it to not to have lame excuses (I was in a rush, didn't have time), just own up to it. "Lying" comes into play when I say I didn't have lunch b/c I wasn't hungry - when I was really so worked up about us that I lost my appetite. 

This is why I get sh!t tested all the time. She doesn't trust me. She doesn't see me leading us forward; she doesn't respect my decisions. She thinks I live for just me and not us. All I do is work and play (events we go to, small trips etc.)

The irony in this is she is super sensitive to these things (based on her failed marriage and prior relationships) and that I have always been a go getter and someone that gets things done.

I told her that I am the type of person that accomplishes goals and will get us that big house; that I do not fail and that I am tired of living like this (the business has been hard, but we are not hurting at all - just not in a position to really save right now b/c of receivables.). I said you can come with me if you want to or don't come with, but I'm getting things in order for myself. She said she wants to see it and talk about it - not just have me tell her.

At the end of the night, she cancelled her IC for our first (and supposedly only) MC session (the one that is supposed to be for me to see we can't do this anymore). She talked about how her IC is only available on the same day and that we can go to the first MC session but subsequent MC sessions will need to be moved.

See - now she believes we are going to multiple MC sessions. We are apparently working on things again. The whole thing was a big massive sh!t test. 

Her comments are pretty insightful. I need to man up in some ways that I hadn't been.


----------



## Deejo

You need to stay with that feeling of 'not needing her'.

Your life is under a microscope. It is clear that she trusts nothing about your judgement.

She feels that her life is chaotic because she is fixated on managing yours.

She doesn't feel safe, whether that is valid or not. This sentence is the core of your issue, and a counselor is NOT going to put together the pieces to come to this conclusion for quite some time. So ... it may behoove you if you do go to counseling, and the therapist asks the inevitable question, "So? Why are you here?"
You can concisely answer; "My wife is not attracted to me because she doesn't feel safe, either financially or emotionally."

Stop worrying so much about acing fitness tests, and do start listening very closely to what she is saying, in contrast with what she is doing.

You need to simply focus more on what you are doing. Make conscious decisions for how you conduct your life.

The lunch thing for instance. What do you think that is really about?


----------



## AFEH

Sounds to me like your wife isn’t going to be happy until she has that big house, until she has that ?????? until she has that ?????? ?????? ……. ad infinitum. It’s a pity when people can’t be “happy in the moment”, happy and content with what they already have. Count their blessings sort of thing. I reckon your wife is never going to be satisfied. And she’ll be nit picking and criticising you all the way through your time together.


----------



## Bigrascal

Thanks guys. The lunch thing is about safety, about trusting in me about my decision making.

Deejo - You are right. They way out is to start focusing on myself and my actions - I think then the fitness tests will start to drop off a bit.

Coming home and complaining about how my customer is 60 days late on a big invoice and how it's stressing me out b/c I have payroll is not helping. Telling her that I am so busy at work that I got a project done late b/c I was overwhelmed with work is not helping. 

These things only add to her perception or "mis-perception" about my judgment. It plays on her fears and she creates a reality in her own head that isn't necessarily real.

Deejo - When you say "start listening very closely to what she is saying, in contrast with what she is doing" are you saying focus on her actions and not her words?


----------



## COGypsy

Unless you're a severe diabetic or something, I would put forth that the lunch thing is not about "safety", it's about control. For reasonably healthy adults, a meal or two in the greater scheme of things doesn't make a difference, especially when things are hectic. I would even make the point that forced eating by the clock can be just as bad as chronic meal skipping. But that's a different debate and not really the point...

I think that whatever maybe going on with your wife, it boils down to you remembering that the only thing that you can control is you. If you focus on YOUR thoughts, YOUR words and YOUR actions, then you create a calm center for yourself that can make the logical choices at home and at work that you need to rather than swinging around in her storms. Then, whether or not the fitness tests stop, they affect you less because you've stepped away from the crazymaking.


----------



## AFEH

Yes. Sometimes the best way to handle a fitness test is to say “I do not tolerate that ?????? behaviour”. It’s more of a boundary thing to protect yourself against abusive/controlling/dysfunctional behaviour. The really big thing is it leaves the onus on the other person to change their behaviour. If it was me getting that sort of exceedingly trivial stuff I’d been out for a walk or off down the pub for a few hours.


----------



## Hicks

When your wife is complaining or nagging you there are two things that are important. The message and the attitude. You DO want the message. What you don't want is the attidude.

Coming home overwhelmed with work is a HUGE MISTAKE you are making.


----------



## Deejo

The lunch thing is actually about MONEY. Your subsequent post confirms that.


You indicate that although challenging, your business is providing you with a comfortable living. If that is in fact the case then definitely stop ringing her alarm bell by voicing your personal concerns. Tell her it's bad if and when it is bad. Otherwise be reassuring and confident.

Don't talk to her about your business at all ... unless you have something good to say. I recognize that you may want to share your concerns with your partner, but what you need to understand is that doing so, in your case ... is toxic. You tell her hoping that doing so will make you feel better. But that isn't how it works. You expressing lack of confidence, worry, or concern, she amplifies by a factor of 10 ... and it makes her feel worse about her marriage, and you. Quit it.

What I mean by getting good at listening to what she says versus what she does has to do with understanding what her true concerns are. My opinion, based upon what you have posted thus far, are that what is putting her 'rationalization hamster' (as Athol Kay refers to it) into overdrive are security, and money. I'm not making any judgement call on whether or not they are valid, but that's how I see it.

Giving up your office space, whether or not you bring your lunch to work or have to buy it, wasting food and being irresponsible (back to the salad bullsh!t)

Your wife doesn't respect you. She has zero confidence in your ability to make good judgements about money, and be a provider for her ... and let's look at the facts ... it simply ain't true.

If it truly is about her need to control ... everything in order to feel secure, you are going to have to make some hard choices.

You have indicated that she has always had a strong need to control ... again something that you will want to bring up in counseling and she needs to explore.


----------



## Bigrascal

This is it - or at least a big part of it for me (my emotional distance is also an issue, but can you friggin blame me). 

By talking about my work and the challenges I face with it, I have spun her out of control, lost respect etc. Even if I tell her I looked at facebook at work she rationalizes that that is all I do all day - she has said this! 

The irony is - it just ain't true. There are challenges, sure, but it's NOT that bad. This is so ridiculous. It's so irrational on her part. 

Damn, how did this get so off track? Part of this is based on her relationship history (ex H living off her, depleting her savings). She also characterizes all her past relationships as being with guys that weren't successful or became unsuccessful when they were with her (losers). I can see how my complaining - which wasn't really excessive was blown out of proportion by her and fed into her fear. 

Whenever we have relationship talks, this is a big component of it. Financial stuff andy by decisions with my business. I think this could be the biggest issue we have (for her at least).

We go to MC tomorrow night. We will see if I still have a W after this, I suspect that I will - but she could simply tell the MC she doesn't want to work on it. and at that point there isn't much of a point. We have agreed we need a third party to see if it is worth moving forward - all she has to do is simply say "my heart isn't in it" "I don't want to work at it" and the MC is going to say ok then - MC won't work. 

I will use your line Deejo.


----------



## Deejo

See? 

You are paying attention.

She is deathly afraid of you failing ... thus failing her.


----------



## F-102

It is also possible, BR that she is pushing your buttons (seems that she knows just the right ones), so that you will give up, storm off and divorce, then she can play "shocked, helpless, blindsided victim" in front of a judge.


----------



## Bigrascal

Well. Today is MC day. 

I know I need not to care and be totally ok with losing her and I am. I feel apprehensive about the session, though.

My fear is that she will simply re-iterate to the therapist that her heart is not in this and that she does not want to try. If she says that, then we separate and perhaps that is for the best. 

We spent a good amount of time filling out the intake form last night. I got a small amount of sh!t tests last night and deflected some pretty artfully - she actually laughed and told me to shut up. I was distant for the most part for most of the evening. 

I was watching 1000 ways to die and she made a comment: "I won't miss not watching these shows anymore." Kinda set me off inside. I said "what do you mean." Her response: "I don't know, nothing."

My assumption is that MC tonight will not go well and that I will simply begin moving out. I have movers scheduled for next week and a storage unit and will stay with a friend for a bit while I continue to search for an Apartment. This is my back up plan. It makes me feel good to have a plan.

I told her that I didn't think our MC session was going to change much and started to initiate a conversation about what will happen next week. She cut me off and said "I thought we were not making rash decisions and taking things slow." Not sure if this meant with moving out quickly or separating at all. I said, "yeah, It's probably premature to talk about that."

I know I'm over analyzing and looking for clues. Point of fact, she has agreed to go to one MC session under the auspices of finding out of this is the right decision - separation. Based on comments and her moving her IC around, it appears she understands or is willing to go to more than just the one session. Despite what she has said about it being the one session and her not wanting to try. 

I need to get my head screwed on straight. I need to stop caring about the outcome and be totally ok with losing her. I need to stop initiating conversations about it; it's devaluing me and its giving her all the control over what we are doing (i.e., "BR, we are going to take things slow while I decide what I want. When I feel like it I will tell you. In the meantime, I will be non-commital to you and let you squirm. I will give you mixed signals, b/c it makes me feel like i'm in control). The reality of the situation, though, is that I don't know If I want this anymore.


----------



## Conrad

Rascal,

Give us a little background.

First marriage?

How old are you?


----------



## Bigrascal

35 my first marriage. She is 35 and its her second.


----------



## Deejo

So explain to me exactly why you are the one expected to move out?

Don't.

I'm giving you a hard boundary for counseling. Do not move out of your house.

If she wants to separate, make it clear that you are prepared to accept that. But ... if separation is what SHE wants, then you calmly state that she is the one that needs to move out.

Given her issues about security, it's pretty much a lock that she will freak out. That's good.

She needs to freak, and you need to discover that her freaking out doesn't mean your world comes to an end.

It is clear that you don't want to lose her. So to hang onto the relationship you will have to stand your ground and fight. Your principal adversary is going to be yourself ... and how you would normally choose to respond and react.

The TV thing? She wants to hurt you. She seems to see separation as 'punishment'. Do not feed into that.

All you needed to do is look at her and state with a smile, "You don't have to watch them now."

Stop trying to get into her head about how she feels about you and the relationship. I'll tell you how she feels ...
Like a mess. Her emotions change from one moment to the next. And your job is to be a sturdy rock in that sea of emotions rather than a dinghy being tossed about and capsized on the waves.


----------



## Conrad

Bigrascal said:


> 35 my first marriage. She is 35 and its her second.


Have you read the 180?

Realize this. She fell in love with a self-sufficient competent capable fun-loving guy.

Are you still that guy?

Or have you let the fitness testing grind you into a docile "yes ma'am" type of nice guy?


----------



## Bigrascal

She had the house prior to our marriage. I know I own half.

This is the money quote for me:

"Like a mess. Her emotions change from one moment to the next. And your job is to be a sturdy rock in that sea of emotions rather than a dinghy being tossed about and capsized on the waves."

I'd like to think i'm the same guy - but I've been pretty much beaten down by the fitness tests. I need to regroup and get my center back.

Thanks for all the advice guys.


----------



## Conrad

If you were that guy once, you can be him again.

It doesn't require you to "change". It requires you to emphasize the parts of you she fell in love with.





Bigrascal said:


> She had the house prior to our marriage. I know I own half.
> 
> This is the money quote for me:
> 
> "Like a mess. Her emotions change from one moment to the next. And your job is to be a sturdy rock in that sea of emotions rather than a dinghy being tossed about and capsized on the waves."
> 
> I'd like to think i'm the same guy - but I've been pretty much beaten down by the fitness tests. I need to regroup and get my center back.
> 
> Thanks for all the advice guys.


----------



## Bigrascal

Went to MC last night. Went like I thought it would. She told the therapist that she didn't think her heart was in it and that we could work on things but that she didn't know where that would get us - not back to a good place. She scheduled an additional session for next week primarily b/c the therapist would have been all booked up.

That night we talked about the hard work and that we haven't been together very long and don't' have kids and she said she didn't want to work on it. She said we should cancel the session for next week.

I said ok, but If we could get past all the BS be better people and step up, we could see progress. She seemed to be going down that path, but then pulled out her computer and started looking for furniture and didn't want to talk anymore. Later she accused me of loving her selfishly - just for myself for what I could get out of the relationship. I told her that wasn't the case and why. 

I asked her if she said she was sure about her decision and she said pretty sure and that she was at peace with it.

Asked me to go with her to look for things and to spend the weekend with her. I pushed back and said no. She was a little angry. She said I needed things too and she could help me.

Things aren't looking so good right now. I'm ok. I feel calm and am prepared for what ever will happen. I don't really know what I want right now. This relationship is so screwed up and will require lots of work by both of us. She doesn't want to do any work so what's the point?


----------



## Deejo

Bigrascal said:


> She doesn't want to do any work so what's the point?


There isn't one.

You need to up the ante. She feels like she is driving the course of this thing, and she's drunk behind the wheel.

Remember that part about being a rock? Rock's are hard.

File for divorce and have her served. Doing so will send the message that she DOESN'T have to work on it, and you have no intention of putting your life on hold during a separation. Her wanting to separate, is for no other purpose than to ease you into divorce, and to free up her conscience to look for your replacement.

You need to trust someone that was separated for two years. Separation is not about reconciliation, it is about dissolution. She just wants it to be easy and guilt free.

Give her what she wants in spades, which is to end the marriage. Doing so will lead her to take a stark look if in fact that is the choice she wants to make.

Her asking you to go shopping together to prepare for 'single-hood' is utterly bizarre. You should neither tolerate, nor facilitate such behavior.

Her behavior is juvenile, and certainly not of someone seriously invested in a relationship. She is deflecting and blame-shifting, without a doubt, she is going to make this about YOU. So ... beat her to the punch. 

You can hang in there. Continue to go to counseling. Continue to 'fight' for her, while she 'fights' to get out, but do be realistic with yourself about 'why' you are fighting to keep this woman.

Are you prepared to divorce her?


----------



## Bigrascal

I'm prepared. Thanks for the good advice. I don't know that this is worth it anymore. 

She is not a mentally healthy person and has exceedingly low self esteem. My own issues have exacerbated her issues (conflict avoidance, seeking validation, emotionally withdrawing), but I'm not so sure I see the point of tying anymore. 

While I want to have a good relationship, I don't know if this is the person to do it with. What I want most is to be a healthy self actualized person with a high level of self esteem. I don't know if I can get there with her.


----------



## Deejo

I don't ever expect ending a relationship into which you have invested your heart and soul to feel good.

Your perspective and self-awareness is very healthy. And is right on the money.

Get right with yourself. Once that happens, you needn't worry about finding the 'right' person.

Doesn't serve anyone if you have to push your partner down the path of participating in a healthy relationship, all you can do is invite them along and hope they take your hand and choose to make the journey with you.


----------



## ManDup

Bigrascal said:


> I'm prepared. Thanks for the good advice. I don't know that this is worth it anymore.
> 
> She is not a mentally healthy person and has exceedingly low self esteem. My own issues have exacerbated her issues (conflict avoidance, seeking validation, emotionally withdrawing), but I'm not so sure I see the point of tying anymore.
> 
> While I want to have a good relationship, I don't know if this is the person to do it with. What I want most is to be a healthy self actualized person with a high level of self esteem. I don't know if I can get there with her.


Once you've worked on yourself (you're on the right path already) you'll be freed up to find a much more mentally healthy partner, and you can take your time looking for that. Now you know what to look for. It's sad and hard, but really she's giving you way too much grief for someone who doesn't want to work on it. 180 time. You don't want to be with someone who is not 100 percent invested in it. Give her what she wants, cut contact, and get ready to start over. Then at least your position is clear. She may be waffling only because she's afraid of hurting you. If that's the case you definitely want out.


----------



## Bigrascal

Your words are comforting. I'm at an ok place mentally right now. I'll be fine, but this isn't easy today and won't be for a while.

I really appreciate the good advice you guys have given me. It helps with perspective. I don't feel alone in dealing with this.


----------



## AllyM

AlphaOmega you are hysterical!!


----------



## Bigrascal

Things seem to be status quo. Wednesday went to MC where we agreed to separate in a conversation after the session. 

Went out last night with a friend and his girlfriend. W wasn't invited. Got home at 11. She left light on for me. 

I get into bed. We exchange pleasantries and I start going to sleep.

She says - are you tired don't you want to read. You just got home and are going directly to sleep? I say i'm not tired, but i will be soon. 

We talk. I ask her about her day if she looked at furniture. She says just online. I ask her what she's doing this weekend. She is going to IC and then to work for a bit. I tell her I scheduled tennis lessons for myself Saturday afternoon. She says "right now? Really?" 

She wants to hang out this weekend and she doesn't like that I scheduled tennis lessons I guess. It's so strange on her part.

I doze off very quickly and start dreaming. She wakes me up and asks me what I was dreaming about. Apparently I was "shaking." I tell her sex - with some random woman. Which is true. She doesn't appear happy.

In the morning, I notice my Ipad is on my night stand. She's been using her laptop to look at furniture. But was using my Ipad and left it open to a furniture page. Don't know if she wanted me to see it or not or what. 

I'm rambling a bit, but just find her actions interesting. She tells me Wednesday she's at peace with the decision to separate and that she's pretty sure it's a good decision. Her actions seem a bit inconsistent. 

I'm trying to be a rock. Show her that I have other things to do. I'm tempted to tell her that I think this is a bad decision and that we should fight for this. If she doesn't want to try - what's the point. But I also feel like she might want me to fight for her. I'm so off that I could just be thinking too much, though. 

Come to think of it, after MC session, she wanted to go out for dinner at a place we like. Weird for someone that doesn't want to try. As I think about this more, she probably expected me to make a last stand in the MC session - which I didn't. Her comments in there were like "I don't think my heart is in this." To me her comments were "My heart is not in this." Much more definitive. Probably doesn't matter.

This morning I got a big receivable finally paid by a client - sent her a brief email saying how happy I was. No response. I was trying to emphasize the positive to her. 

I'm conflicted with just trying to ignore her a bit and let her feel the impact of her decision and that things are over.


----------



## Deejo

Actions are not matching up with words. 

She wants to be rid of you, but she continuously reaches out to you. Get what I mean about paying attention to what she does versus what she says?

When you separate, one of two things is going to happen. She is ether going to want to spend MORE time with you, or she is going to look to replace you with another man very quickly.

This woman doesn't want to be alone ... but she doesn't want to work at the relationship.


----------



## AFEH

Bigrascal, if your wife is truly conflicted, half in and half out of the marriage, you will never get from her the love you deserve from a woman. She will always find reasons “not to love you”.


----------



## Bigrascal

Well. I think I need to focus on her actions and not her words. Her actions say she wants to be together. No. Actually they just say she doesn't want to be alone. 

Part of me wants to think that this is just a massive fitness test where she is pushing me to lead her back into the relationship. But i'm not really sure. When we talk about things, she uses all sorts of future type language that makes me thing she wants to work it out i.e., I need this from you and I need you not to do that. What's your financial plan, you never talked about it with me - i was never worth it. But then she starts looking at furniture online before we can finish the conversation. 

I either continue with the action plan of separating or tell her that this is ridiculous and we are fighting for this.

My gut tells me that she will want to spend more time after separation, but I've been very, very wrong before.


----------



## Conrad

Rascal,

She's sending you the signal that you are INTERESTING when you pursue your own interests and have your own life.

You should not move out.

You should not spend a dime on her.

Start having fun.

Do the 180.

I have a feeling you'll like the outcome.

Stand tall.


----------



## Bigrascal

Yeah. I don't know what her deal is right now. She said she is not 100% sure about this, but then says she is "pretty sure and at peace with the decision." 2 or 3 weeks ago she had all sorts of hope - more hope than she had in a long time. This was after long talks and agreement to separate and then a pull back by both of us. A week later I told her I didn't think I could do this anymore. So, I've brought some of this on myself. I have wavered about what I want this past month.

Great way to lead and establish trust , eh?


----------



## Conrad

Rascal,

With all due respect, stop it.

Stop beating yourself up.

Rare is the man who understands this stuff before he finds a place like this and some 'brothers' to help him on his way.

Now, buck up and do what you have to.

You can only start at the beginning.

You start passing these tests with confidence and humor, and she won't even care one whit about last month.

Trust me on this.

Don't move out.

Quit initiating discussions about the relationship.

Savor your life - and have fun.




Bigrascal said:


> Yeah. I don't know what her deal is right now. She said she is not 100% sure about this, but then says she is "pretty sure and at peace with the decision." 2 or 3 weeks ago she had all sorts of hope - more hope than she had in a long time. This was after long talks and agreement to separate and then a pull back by both of us. A week later I told her I didn't think I could do this anymore. So, I've brought some of this on myself. I have wavered about what I want this past month.
> 
> Great way to lead and establish trust , eh?


----------



## F-102

BR, deep down she probably WANTS this marriage, but wants YOU to do the work. In short, she wants a free ride where she can take, take, take...

... and doesn't have to give you jack!

Keep up with the 180-she started sounding you out while you were in bed, hoping that you'd admit to being lost without her, so that she could say "See? This is one more thing that you f**ked up and can't do right without me here to hold your hand", but you showed her that you can get along just fine on yer own...

...AND SHE DON'T DIG IT AT ALL!!!


----------



## Bigrascal

Came home and she had her weekend schedule on the grocery chalk board. Various activities with her initials next to them. IC a BBQ, Client meeting. I asked her "what's this."

I trumped her with tennis lessons and go kart racing for saturday night with the guys - with me most likely staying the night at a friends b/c the racing is far away. Oh man - she just about blew a gasket.

Apparently I'm "already planning my single life and I'm going to bump into girls with a beer in my hand." My response was um, well, yeah. You are the one that doesn't want to try and whose heart isn't in this.

Her - "why would I try with someone that consistently shows me that they do not care about me and is selfish etc. etc. You need to be there until the end for me. You are scheduling movers."

She was livid that she had to email her sister links to furniture when she would have rather shown me the pictures b/c I apparently all of a sudden have good taste.

I can't stop smiling right now. It was so funny. I have the biggest grin on my face. Thanks guys. I will savor the small victories.


----------



## Conrad

Rascal,

You have the momentum now.

Keep it up and DO NOT MOVE OUT.

You call the tune.

Keep scheduling and living your life to the fullest.

And be acutely aware of how much of it you've given up (your life) "for" this relationship. It will stiffen your spine.





Bigrascal said:


> Came home and she had her weekend schedule on the grocery chalk board. Various activities with her initials next to them. IC a BBQ, Client meeting. I asked her "what's this."
> 
> I trumped her with tennis lessons and go kart racing for saturday night with the guys - with me most likely staying the night at a friends b/c the racing is far away. Oh man - she just about blew a gasket.
> 
> Apparently I'm "already planning my single life and I'm going to bump into girls with a beer in my hand." My response was um, well, yeah. You are the one that doesn't want to try and whose heart isn't in this.
> 
> Her - "why would I try with someone that consistently shows me that they do not care about me and is selfish etc. etc. You need to be there until the end for me. You are scheduling movers."
> 
> She was livid that she had to email her sister links to furniture when she would have rather shown me the pictures b/c I apparently all of a sudden have good taste.
> 
> I can't stop smiling right now. It was so funny. I have the biggest grin on my face. Thanks guys. I will savor the small victories.


----------



## F-102

Man, this is gettin' GOOD!


----------



## Bigrascal

Well. Not too good. After that incident, she texted me asking me if i wanted to go to dinner and if so, to shower b/c I looked like I've been in a funk.

I told her to meet me at a restaurant that I chose. I get there and it's one sh!t test after another. It was bad. I wasn't so good at passing them either - wasn't in the zone. We were one of those couples you see that you can tell just aren't happy. I was trying to engage in conversation and she was just not helping. She then sighs and says we have nothing to talk about - REALLY? Maybe if you tried to converse we could actually talk. 

This morning we had a long talk. She want's me to make the decision about if we are separating or not. She said I decide her fate. She says I have lots of work to do to prove that I really value and care for her (i've made some mistakes, but I'm not that bad). She is mad that I think she needs to give anything to the relationship when I'm the one that has made mistakes. She's mad that I have wavered back and forth so much and that I have put her through so much emotion. She agreed to counseling.

I wanted to say if you weren't such a controlling maniac that viewed every action as an indication of how invested I am in you or how competent I am, maybe I would like you more and would be more invested in the relationship.

She is really pissed and withdrawn and moody today. Not happy. Vacant stares and tearing up. 

She totally talked about wanting financial plan for the next 5 years and how I don't seem to have one. She wants to know just how much the business has made is making and is projected to make and if based on that info, I should stick with it or go back to the corporate world.


----------



## Conrad

Doesn't change a word we've said.

Do not move out.

Dive into your business and kick ass.

Live your life.

Here's something that's true:

If a motorcycle rider rides up to the front door of a woman and knocks... she answers, he says, "You are the most beautiful woman on earth and I've come to save you"

She questions him and doesn't go.

If - however - that same woman sees the SAME man riding down the street and he yells, "I'm here to save the most beautiful woman in the world", she begins chasing that motorcycle with the other fifteen women.

Make this true for you Rascal.

Make it happen. Don't wait for her


----------



## Bigrascal

Well. I think she may have lost it. I need a place to vent.

We went to MC last night. Had a long talk first. She really really wants to separate. She thinks that it is the best thing for us. I pushed back and she got indignant about how she should have left me long ago and that I don't deserve any second chances and I don't have the right and that I keep shoving my way of doing things down her throat when they clearly don't work. I'm stubborn and can't see that her way is a good way.

At MC she said that she wants to separate and doesn't know what that means. The MC agreed that separation was best. The MC said we need a separation agreement and that separation is a good idea. He said that at this point he doesn't recommend anymore MC sessions until we figure things out.

We talked about it on the way home. I said fine, if she wants to separate and she thinks its the only way ok. I won't fight it anymore. We can do things her way.

She wants to go on a date two weeks after the separation and then once every two weeks for a few months if we both feel like it. 

I asked her if she intends to see other people during this period. She got mad that I would ask and said no, but that I have no more choice in the matter and that I could date if I wanted to. Um, no choice, Ok really your still my w.

I'm to be out on the 16th to give her two weekends to get furniture and things. I told her that during this two week period I will be hanging out with my friends a bit more.

She blew a gasket. She said that I should be doing everything I can to show her that I care that maybe she would change her mind that If I really changed I wouldn't say that. She said I was shallow and insensitive and selfish.

She broke down and started weeping and screaming that she should have never married me and that please do not let her have kids with me and please don't let her get back with me. That we are too different and this proves it that she can't live with someone like me.

Took her to the bedroom to calm her down and talk. Calmed her down a bit. But she is indignant and brining up slights and perceived slights from the last few years. Everything is about how bad I am.

One was that I kept an employee on too long and b/c of that I couldn't afford to take her to Mexico for a week when she really needed it b/c I chose the employee over her. That keeping the employee caused me to be stressed and not focus on her etc. I disagreed - said that If it had worked out we would have been in a way better financial position (again we are not that bad) Things took a turn for the worst. Name calling by her. I was pretty calm.

She seems to really believe that the separation will allow us to regroup and see if we really have a chance. She is upset that in the last two weeks of living together that I would even suggest that I will not work on things and spend time with friends.

At this point I'm actually feeling like staying here is bad for her and potentially dangerous for me. It was a scary argument. I don't know if I'm blowing it out of proportion or not. She was in a very sorry state. I don't think she would get violent but man she really seems to have some hate and resentment towards me.

part of me just wants to leave asap, but then I will be perceived as abandoning her and not wanting to work on this and blowing any chance I may have at reconciliation - this is what she says.

Part of me just doesn't care. I'm in a bad spot in some ways. I feel like if I stay nothing I do will be right anyway and that If I go I am a selfish jerk.

BTW, tonight we are going to an NFL game together and over the weekend she was talking about children and family vacations.


----------



## Hicks

Dude, if you wife wants to separate or divorce you say. "Let me help you pack your things" and walk her out. Then you move on with your life and don't agree to date her or talk about what hoops she can give you to jump through to get back together with her. Tell her when she walks out, you will file for divorce and plan to move on with you life and expect to find a new woman. You are allowing her to construct alot of insanity around this situation which will tun her off to you.


----------



## Deejo

Hicks said:


> Dude, if you wife wants to separate or divorce you say. "Let me help you pack your things" and walk her out. Then you move on with your life and don't agree to date her or talk about what hoops she can give you to jump through to get back together with her. Tell her when she walks out, you will file for divorce and plan to move on with you life and expect to find a new woman. You are allowing her to construct alot of insanity around this situation which will tun her off to you.


Seconded.

Remember what I said about letting the crazy person drive the bus?

You talk too much. You tolerate WAY too much. 

Next time your lovely wife melts down like a 3 year old? Let her. Don't try to 'fix' it. Don't say an effing word. Her freaking out is not the time for discussion. Leave the field. Leave her to herself.

Do see your friends. Find a place and move out AHEAD of schedule ... if you are still hell-bent on being the one to leave. Separate your finances. Separate whatever joint accounts you share. Go see an attorney, seriously.

Make absolutely no mistake. Many people think that separation is the last step towards a working reconciliation. It isn't. It is the first step towards divorce. It brings on a new host of problems rather than helping you solve the old ones.

Here is the other exercise that if you haven't already been doing, you NEED to do.
Imagine what your life looks like and how you choose to conduct it without this woman in it.


----------



## Bigrascal

Good, tough advice. Thanks.


----------



## F-102

I don't know, but it sounds like a classic "Don't know what she wants until she can't have it" type.


----------



## AFEH

Hicks said:


> Dude, if you wife wants to separate or divorce you say. "Let me help you pack your things" and walk her out. Then you move on with your life and don't agree to date her or talk about what hoops she can give you to jump through to get back together with her. Tell her when she walks out, you will file for divorce and plan to move on with you life and expect to find a new woman. You are allowing her to construct alot of insanity around this situation which will tun her off to you.



I'll third that.

But BigRascal why are you the one to be moving out? What are your reasonings for it?


----------



## Hicks

Bigrascal said:


> Good, tough advice. Thanks.


This is advice about how to avoid divorce, by the way.

Allowing your wife to control the shots in a very unclear manner (i.e. We can go out on dates "If we want to"), (I have decided to separate but I will turn around and expect you to fight for me after I just told you I want to separate). Jumping through those hoops will kill your marriage.


----------



## Bigrascal

Moving out b/c it's her house. She owned it before the marriage. I have a place downtown in the city. 

I will not jumpt through the hoops. I've resigned to move out - earlier than scheduled. Regardless of her saying its immature and shows I just don't care about her.

Everyone is on her side, her IC therapist and the MC therapist. All saying this is good. WTF?

If this is what she wants she will get it it in spades and I will move on. If that's the way to save this. I will do it. Staying for two more weeks and proving I will fight and have changed just sets me up for failure and more arguments.


----------



## Bigrascal

Hicks said:


> This is advice about how to avoid divorce, by the way.
> 
> Allowing your wife to control the shots in a very unclear manner (i.e. We can go out on dates "If we want to"), (I have decided to separate but I will turn around and expect you to fight for me after I just told you I want to separate). Jumping through those hoops will kill your marriage.


This is exactly what she is doing. Fight though I want to separate and I've told you you don't' deserve a chance. God forbid you go our with your friends when you should stay home and prove you love me so that I might change my mind.


----------



## AFEH

Bigrascal said:


> Moving out b/c it's her house. She owned it before the marriage. I have a place downtown in the city.
> 
> I will not jumpt through the hoops. I've resigned to move out - earlier than scheduled. Regardless of her saying its immature and shows I just don't care about her.
> 
> Everyone is on her side, her IC therapist and the MC therapist. All saying this is good. WTF?
> 
> If this is what she wants she will get it it in spades and I will move on. If that's the way to save this. I will do it. Staying for two more weeks and proving I will fight and have changed just sets me up for failure and more arguments.


Got you with the house and totally agree with your WTF.

Have you looked into the 180 at all? It’s kind of turning off everything you do for your wife. In the “hope” that she will both miss you and miss the things you did for her. It’s designed to let her go and get on with her life, to see if she likes the new experiences of living without you by her side. It additionally helps you to at least maintain and perhaps improve on your dignity, self-esteem and self-respect while you go through this phase in your life

If you like the thought of the 180 (let me know if you don’t have any links) then perhaps tell your wife that you really wanted your marriage to her to work out and be a happy and healthy one. That you would have worked with her towards that end and were totally committed to do doing so. But you can’t handle being with a person who is not totally committed in the same way as you are because you simply know deep inside of you that it would never work. Perhaps tell her that you are sorry to see her go but you accept things as they are. That you will now look forward to the new challenges in your life and will be setting on the next journey in your life by yourself for a while. That your door will be open to her, for how long you cannot say, if she should ever want to commit to you in the same way you were committed to her.


----------



## Bigrascal

Thanks AFEH.

Hmm. Can you do a 180 when you are not living in the same house? I'll check out the links.


----------



## AFEH

I reckon you can. Basically you create your own 180 list such as ….

No more talking about our relationship.
No more responding to her fitness tests.
No more trying to make it work.
Put myself first.
Work on myself.

Reckon it will help if you go over to Divorce Busting® - How to Save Your Marriage, Solve Marriage Problems, and Stop Divorce and search “180” in the forums there for some ideas. You’ll probably add to the list as you go along.

In my case in my separation my stbxw gave me just two very subtle hints that she’d like to reconcile and I know she’d like to get back with me (or did at one time, she doesn’t know that I know) but doesn’t think I’ll have her back. That didn’t constitute anywhere near a loud enough knocking on my door. Which tells me one heck of a lot and I’m happy as things are.


----------



## Bigrascal

Well. I left today. A bit unexpectedly, but I did it. I was packing today and she cane home from lunch and was riled up that I had packed the coffee machine. Appaently something I use everyday and symbolic (so she said). She was upset that I had not discussed it with her first. Told me I was a jerk that doesn't think about her and that she didn't care if she never saw me again and didn't need help getting furniture. 

I thought about her out burst and just couldnt deal anymore. I finished putting my things in boxes and am staying at a friends house. Left her a note. She has called and texted me on the hour. I have deleted them without reading. Only Plan on communicating essentials with her. 

We will see. It feels better than I thought, but still a little freaked out. I can do this, though.


----------



## southernmagnolia

Your wife sounds very manipulative and sometimes cruel.

I'd suggest that you keep on with the 180 and I think she needs to work on her selfish manipulative self before you even entertain the idea of going back.........if ever.


----------



## Bigrascal

She is a little cruel. Peoples' true character comes out when they deal with hardship.

i had to communicate with her today - did it via text. Told her movers are coming on Tuesday and the time. She texts back saying that the cleaning lady is coming that day and can I reschedule.

i can't so I tell her "no I can't." She texts back saying that she can reschedule and that she knows this is hard on me and that it is hard on her to. Because of my short notice she had to go to Ikea alone and wondered if it would make it easier if she changed the locks and kept all of my furniture (I had it since before we married). 

She is obviously upset. Telling me yesterday that she doesn't care if she ever sees me again and that she doesn't need or want my help. 

I don't plan on responding to that. Was thinking of telling her not to text, call or email me though. That might be a bit much.

I do like being in the drivers seat, feel like I have some power back, but this is not easy.


----------



## Conrad

Rascal,

"I won't" is much stronger than "I can't".

Of course you "can", but you don't want to, so you "won't."

Calmly let her know that if she changes the locks, the next knock will be from the police.


----------



## Bigrascal

She sent me a vague email today telling me

1. She knows it's hard for me to think that we will not be together b/c we won't be living together;
2. She is sure if she had more strength to give me more time and help me change that things could be better between us but she guesses she is out of strength which is why she reacts in terrible ways;
3. She knows that I see what was deterrioaring us and want to change it. That she wanted that too but the past month has been very damaging;
4. She hoped the last month would have been an opportunity for me to be unselfish but she thinks she asked for to much to soon. 

I want to respond but I am fighting it. The email is vague and Im not sure what she means or intends by it. It's almost an invitation for me to start trying again and giving her attention. But it's styled in such a way that she could say it means anything or nothing. I'm thinking I keep up with the no contact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## F-102

Sounds like she "wanted" to change, but just didn't feel like it.

So, she wanted YOU to change, but you wouldn't/couldn't, so she is putting the blame on you.


----------



## Deejo

She is used to a very different dynamic. One where she acts out, and you respond. 

She misses having you 'orbit' her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bigrascal

Deejo said:


> She is used to a very different dynamic. One where she acts out, and you respond.
> 
> She misses having you 'orbit' her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's exactly what it is. She is inviting me to respond to her. She ended the email with a list of nice things she is doing for me, washing clothes etc.

My normal reaction would be to respond and let her know how much I want this to work and that I am committed to having a healthy relationship and getting to a point of having children and a good life together. If i'm doing the 180 I either don't respond or respond in a way that just confirms the movers and other stuff.

It's hard not to go with my normal response. There is so much I want to say in response:

1. I'm the one that thinks not living together means we are over - so you don't think that? We still have some hope here via the separation agreement? I don't understand.

2. Now that I see what's wrong, things can be fixed? Is that what you mean.

3. If you had the strength, you know things could be better for us?

4. You guess you don't have the strength, but you are not sure so maybe we have a chance. 

5. You guess you don't have the strength so you are reacting terribly - so you can take some blame and change your terrible behavior?

6. You said wanted to work on us too. That's new. Do you still think we can do it?

7. you believe that you asked for too much too soon regarding me being unselfish about losing you. So this was a mistake and you realize that we needed more time?

I'm venting, but these things are going through my head. I need to stop thinking.

I think my response will be via text and be something along the lines of:

Received your email. Thanks. Movers are coming tomorrow between X and X. I will be at the house at X.

Is there anything else I should say.


----------



## Conrad

No

Don't you dare say items 1-7


----------



## Bigrascal

Conrad said:


> No
> 
> Don't you dare say items 1-7


Thanks Conrad. I won't say any of that stuff. My biggest enemy is myself right now.


----------



## Deejo

You can, at your option choose to respond to her when the context of her messages are about what SHE is doing in an effort to make this work. She is after all, half of the equation. For as long as her dialogue remains fixated on what YOU need to do that might 'win' her back; do not engage ... Freeze her out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## golfergirl

Bigrascal said:


> 2. This morning, she is upset because she is sick. I grilled pork loin for dinner the night before that had been in the freezer for about six months. She has a sensitive stomach (lactose intolerant) and apparently it made her sick. She talks to me about how I just don’t think about her and how I am not a partner that has her back. I know she is sensitive but just don’t think this would make her sick. Of course I push back telling her that I didn’t realize she was that sensitive. My cooking dinner was in response to her criticism that I do not do things around the house.


I know this is old and minor, but unless you grilled pork in milk then she's full of crap. Lactose intolerance is inability to digest milk sugar - so your meal had nothing to do with that.

Read your thread start to finish and it's nice to see you gaining strength.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bigrascal

Thanks golfgirl. 

I responded to her email via text. Short and sweet. Confirmed move time and told her we will communicate and be civil and that here threatening to keep my things wasn't civil and showed we need time. 

This is hard moving out tomorrow will be tough. Not in a great place todday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bigrascal

Moving day today. I'm at a Panera having some coffee and getting ready to go to home depot.

Feeling pretty crappy. Can't believe this is happening. 

I've been thinking of responding to her email by return email letting her know that I am/was committed to this relationship, but we need space and I will use this space to make changes for myself for the better b/c I'm committed to having a healthy relationship. That if we have any chance, we need some time apart.

Please tell me this is a bad idea.


----------



## Deejo

There are few things in life that you will face as traumatic as ending a marriage. Especially if neither of you actually want it to end ... yet can't make it work.

Acknowledge your emotions, but do not let them rule you.

"Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."

Expect more from, and more for, yourself. You will get through this.


----------



## Conrad

It's a horrible idea.

You talk about the relationship when she asks.

Not before.



Bigrascal said:


> Moving day today. I'm at a Panera having some coffee and getting ready to go to home depot.
> 
> Feeling pretty crappy. Can't believe this is happening.
> 
> I've been thinking of responding to her email by return email letting her know that I am/was committed to this relationship, but we need space and I will use this space to make changes for myself for the better b/c I'm committed to having a healthy relationship. That if we have any chance, we need some time apart.
> 
> Please tell me this is a bad idea.


----------



## turnera

Bigrascal said:


> She sent me a vague email today telling me
> 
> 1. She knows *it's hard for me to think that we will not be together* b/c we won't be living together;
> 2. She is sure if she had more *strength to give me more time and help me change* that things could be better between us but she guesses she is out of strength which is why she reacts in terrible ways;
> 3. She knows that* I see* what was deterrioaring us and *want to change it*. That she wanted that too but the past month has been very damaging;
> 4. She hoped the last month would have been an *opportunity for me to be unselfish* but she thinks she asked for to much to soon.


:rofl:

BR, the sooner you're away from THAT...the better.


----------



## Bigrascal

Move out is complete. It was tough to go over to the house not knowing if she would be there. 

She had left me a note telling me where some of my clothing and items were and that she had taken my bed apart and put it in the second bedroom. Also saying she was canceling one of our insurance policies since I wasn't in the house anymore and would let me know this week when it was cancelled. Very business like. 

Once the movers took everything out, the house was empty except for my dining room table, a chair and her new bed and side tables.

It hit me really hard thinking how she would come home to an empty house and be devastated. 

I texted my brother in law asking his wife to call her that night b/c she would be in a bad state in an empty house. I also left her a note saying that this is hard and if she needs anything to let me know - I know not a solid 180 move and I feel bad about doing that. I left some power in her court asking her to essentially contact me if she needs something. 

I wish I would have just walked out without leaving any note, but at least I didn't talk about the relationship. 

No contact from her last night, didn't expect it though.

So for now, no calling emailing or texting. I will just wait to hear from her I suppose.

Went out to dinner last night with a friend and had a bottle of champagne and a steak - was actually feeling good to be away from the constant sh!t tests and criticism and drama of the past month.


----------



## Deejo

Stay busy. My biggest recommendation is to get your ass in the gym. Right now, exercise is one of the best kinds of therapy you can engage in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bigrascal

Deejo said:


> Stay busy. My biggest recommendation is to get your ass in the gym. Right now, exercise is one of the best kinds of therapy you can engage in.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks deejo. You talk like it's over. I guess that's the mentality I need to have. The thing is don't want it to be over, but this is all that I can do. Be the guy on the motorcycle
and be te best person I can be - for myself not her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega

I still don't understand why YOU moved out. Out of a house you had worked for before your marriage......

Why did you do this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega

Ok. Your thinking way way too much into how to respond about fitness tests. It doesn't have to be so complicated off the bat while you are just learning this stuff....

Do this:

Her:blah. Blah. Blah. Your fault. Blah blah. 
You: Look. I'm trying to enjoy my meal, show, drink... And I don't want to listen to this nonsense. Either talk about something where your not coming up with excuses to blame me for things, or stop talking.

Or, even throw some humor in there...

Her: blah blah blah your fault blah blah
You: look. I'm having a hard time understanding what your saying. Could you please shut up?

There. Easy.

The trick is to think about how you would react if a complete stranger talked to you in that manner instead of it being your wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Bigrascal said:


> It hit me really hard thinking how she would come home to an empty house and be devastated.


You're projecting YOUR pain onto HER. 

Do you know what I think she felt when she came home and you were gone?

Relieved.


----------



## Bigrascal

turnera said:


> You're projecting YOUR pain onto HER.
> 
> Do you know what I think she felt when she came home and you were gone?
> 
> Relieved.


Tunera - That's a really good point and a bit eye opening. I think I have a tendency to assume she is feeling the same way that I am since we are going through the same thing. 

I know this is hard on her, but she probably is a bit relieved to be rid of the daily frustration and arguments.

I'll have to remember this when I'm thinking of communicating with her - she may be at a very different place emotionally than am I and writing does no really good - hence the advice to only communicate about the relationship when she does.


----------



## turnera

I think you're avoiding the apparent (to me) fact that she is (1) selfish, (2) a User, and (3) used to getting her way. NOwhere in all that is a person who cares what YOU think or want. 

You need to stop romanticizing her. It's a safe bet she doesn't do it for YOU.


----------



## Bigrascal

turnera said:


> I think you're avoiding the apparent (to me) fact that she is (1) selfish, (2) a User, and (3) used to getting her way. NOwhere in all that is a person who cares what YOU think or want.
> 
> You need to stop romanticizing her. It's a safe bet she doesn't do it for YOU.


You are exactly right. I got a long diatribe today via email that took me a aback. She said:

1. she doesn't need me;
2. I'm selfish;
3. Left her in a house by herself with no furniture;
4. I'm a narcissist;
5. I have no money;
6. I just care about wearing suits, going to europe and having a fancy office, but that's not success. Success is managing your money and making investments;

There's a lot more, but that's the gist of it. I was tempted to call or respond or go to the house, but I'm not thinking that's a good idea.


----------



## Deejo

All your attention or presence would result in, is giving her the audience she wants.

I gotta be honest, given how she is absolutely framing you as the villain in no uncertain terms, have you considered that there may be another man? Her demonizing you to divest herself of guilt is standard behavior
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Who cares? He's better off without her.


----------



## AFEH

Bigrascal said:


> You are exactly right. I got a long diatribe today via email that took me a aback. She said:
> 
> 1. she doesn't need me;
> 2. I'm selfish;
> 3. Left her in a house by herself with no furniture;
> 4. I'm a narcissist;
> 5. I have no money;
> 6. I just care about wearing suits, going to europe and having a fancy office, but that's not success. Success is managing your money and making investments;
> 
> There's a lot more, but that's the gist of it. I was tempted to call or respond or go to the house, but I'm not thinking that's a good idea.


I’m pretty certain your wife thinks she’s King D*ck in your marriage because she has the house and you don’t. And because of that she looks down on you from her “lofty” position. I also think that while that situation remains she will use the fact that the house is hers in an attempt to control you by threatening you with “eviction”. Kind of “Do as I say or I will evict you”. Personally I think that a really bad position for any man to put himself in and should you decide to reconcile you will need to do it such that your home is jointly owned or rented by both of you.

One of the things about the 180 is that it lets your wife be “free” of the “normal dynamics” between the two of you. In essence, you just passively sit back and see what happens, what transpires. In your case it’s happening very quickly. You are now beginning to understand what is in your wife’s mind. There is probably more to come.

Your wife is seriously poking you and she’s wanting a response. If she didn’t want a response you wouldn’t have got the email. It may be best not to respond or to just respond with something like “Ok” by way of acknowledging that you’ve read her email.

Maybe it’s best to put a time limit on your 180. Say something like 3 months which in the scheme of a lifetime is very little. And at the end of that 3 months you’ll have learnt quite a bit just by observing what your wife does and you can then take a decision on what to do for the best for you.


----------



## Bigrascal

Well. I screwed the 180 and called her. I said "got her your email, you sound like you are hurting. Do you want to talk."

We talked for about an hour. It was a good talk. Much of it was her talking about me and my "selfishness," but we talked about her mistakes too. She seemed taken aback a little by what I told her - basically her constant criticism has beat me down and impacted my self esteem - that she talks to me like I'm a janitor not someone with an eduction and options - and that our relationship is emotionally abusive - she denied this.

We had dinner together and we slept together. 

I'm really starting to see through her cr*p though - for the first time. How she says things just for a reaction, but doesn't mean them. I sat back and could see her little brain working. So much of what she says is meaningless and is only for getting me to react. I'm so much smarter than she is - it's funny. I never realized how transparent her strategies are before and how easily I was baited.

I didn't do so much of the talking this time either, I was silent for long pauses and let her talk herself out. It was a good dynamic. She was really, really focused on the fact that she could have changed the locks on the house - asked me if I thought she was going to do that and if I was shocked she hadn't - wtf? So weird.

Not good for the 180. I think it's set me back. Right now I'm thinking about her and what's next and when we will next communicate - instead of focusing on myself and my business and moving on with my life. But then again, I just left the house and her so that's to be expected. I will regain my center soon.


----------



## AFEH

There is so much revealed and learnt, so much understanding gained through simple observation. I liken it to a scientist studying something or other. Let’s say it’s ants. Scientists learn their behaviour simply through observation. As soon as the scientist interferes then the ants behave differently.

How to observe and become AWARE is taught in Anthony de Mello's book Awareness. I was way over reactive to my wife’s poking. I became so emotional, anger or whatever, that I DIDN’T EVEN SEE THAT SHE WAS POKING ME! It is well thought out and deliberately antagonising. It is DESIGNED TO PUSH YOUR BUTTONS.

But if you are so deeply and unconsciously emotionally involved in the DYNAMICS of the interactions you will never truly see what is going on far less understand it all.

And that is part of the beauty of the 180, it’s “remoteness” from the relationship dynamics. It can stop them dead in their tracks. But there is no problem “going back into the relationship” for a “sortie”. Just when you do it, put a smile on your face and OBSERVE WITHOUT EMOTION. Anthony de Mello will teach you how.

The really really strange thing is that CHANGE HAPPENS without even trying to make it happen.


----------



## Deejo

Bigrascal said:


> She seemed taken aback a little by what I told her - basically her constant criticism has beat me down and impacted my self esteem - that she talks to me like I'm a janitor not someone with an eduction and options - and that our relationship is emotionally abusive - she denied this.


Denial and blame shifting. So yeah ... it's still all your fault champ.



> We had dinner together and we slept together.


So, she still knows you are completely and utterly invested ... thus she continues to steer how this whole thing will eventually play out. I'm not criticizing you. I know this hurts ... plenty. I've been there. But do be aware ... as Bob said of what is truly going on, and here is a quick summary of what has changed ... zilch. 



> I'm really starting to see through her cr*p though - for the first time. How she says things just for a reaction, but doesn't mean them. I sat back and could see her little brain working. So much of what she says is meaningless and is only for getting me to react. I'm so much smarter than she is - it's funny. I never realized how transparent her strategies are before and how easily I was baited.


Great ... now stop taking the bait.



> I didn't do so much of the talking this time either, I was silent for long pauses and let her talk herself out. It was a good dynamic. She was really, really focused on the fact that she could have changed the locks on the house - asked me if I thought she was going to do that and if I was shocked she hadn't - wtf? So weird.


Control, control, control. Emphasizing that she has it, and aren't you so lucky that she will still give you the time of day, and allow you into her house, her bed, etc ...



> Not good for the 180. I think it's set me back. Right now I'm thinking about her and what's next and when we will next communicate - instead of focusing on myself and my business and moving on with my life. But then again, I just left the house and her so that's to be expected. I will regain my center soon.


No ... not much of a 180. Your NEED to engage her is a core part of the issue. You really need to be aware of that. If you can't get a handle on THAT ... you stand absolute zero chance of recovery.

You see the 180 as bad ... because you are afraid doing so will cost you the relationship. What you need to understand is that it is likely the only thing that can recover the relationship and make it BETTER. You guys getting back together right now? Meaningless. Nothing will have changed at all, let alone change for the better.

Unless and until you can get comfortable with modifying YOUR behavior around how you interact with, and deal with your wife, you will remain on what I call 'the rollercoaster'. It's a painful form of limbo.

Sounds like she has taken little if any ownership of her behavior.


----------



## turnera

Ok, you got your one get out of jail free card this time. But if you break down and call, meet, eat, and SLEEP with her again, you can expect a *hailstorm *of yelling from us. 

Do you understand me?


----------



## AFEH

turnera said:


> Ok, you got your one get out of jail free card this time. But if you break down and call, meet, eat, and SLEEP with her again, you can expect a *hailstorm *of yelling from us.
> 
> Do you understand me?


Maybe that’s the way to go if he wants a divorce, but the guys not talking divorce. Meantime he has a bit of a task on his hands and that’s to get to really understand his wife and what it is that drives and motivates her. He can only do that by engaging with her.

But he can engage with her with his “new eyes” and on his own terms. In essence he has got control of himself back. Back where it belongs with himself. That in and of itself is one very very big change and in such a short space of time. He has already learnt the benefit of keeping his mouth shut (much better done with a small smile on the face to disguise any emotions being felt). And again that in and of itself is a very big lesson learned. So that’s two very big lifetime lessons learned in just about as few days.

Now it’s best just to sit back for a bit and let the lessons sink in for a while. And then sometime in the future take the initiative and set up another get together. And then in that get together apply the two lessons learned. Retain control (by doing nothing, by not responding) and just observe his wife’s behaviour. I can assure you in that way he will learn many things about his wife that he has absolutely no idea of.


----------



## turnera

You want him to stay with her? She has a LOT of counseling in store before she'd be viable marriage material, IMO.


----------



## AFEH

turnera said:


> You want him to stay with her? She has a LOT of counseling in store before she'd be viable marriage material, IMO.


That’s not what I said at all. Besides what I want is absolutely immaterial. Surely that's the way it should be.


----------



## Bigrascal

I don't want a divorce, though it seems that that's where this could be heading. I have hope and so does she.

She is in IC, but I'm not sure what she tells the therapist. Her therapist apparently tells her that she doesn't stand up for herself ant that in the move-out situation, she needed to take back control and assert herself. My view is that she is already controlling and should chill the f out.

When things are good, they are good, we have fun, there is love and tenderness and respect.

Everything Deejo says I agree with and AFEH too. But it's a balancing act. The day I moved out, a kid in a moped ran into the backyard fence and knocked some of it down. It needs to be fixed. She has asked me for help this weekend.

I can just ignore her and tell he no, or help her with our house. She can have a female friend help her, but that seems wrong to me. 

I guess I'm looking at a balanced 180.

Our relationship is so toxic right now, that we do need space. My IC has said that (we need space) at least. Of course the W disagrees that we are abusive or toxic. 

To her I'm just selfish and she acts this way b/c I hurt her. It's a reaction to my bad behavior - my fault. Not sure how her IC can help her if she isn't getting to her core issues.


----------



## turnera

Why don't you get an appointment to go see her IC, either WITH her or by yourself? Her IC needs to know the truth.


----------



## turnera

When are you going to start calling her out on calling YOU selfish? Start carrying a voice-activated recorder and RECORD what she says to you.


----------



## Bigrascal

Bring on the hailstorm. 

She texted me today asking me to help with the fence. I agreed. She then texts me that she hired a handy man to do it so she doesn't need my help. And that she should rather put her furniture together.

She texts me that she is happy we are talking right now and that I am available to help her. Notice, she doesn't ask for help with the furniture but leaves it hanging. 

I ask if she needs help with the furniture b/c I have a busy weekend and I need to know. She says she thinks she will be ok. SHE THINKS SHE WILL BE OK.

This was her biggest gripe, telling me how she is walking through IKEA crying b/c she has no help. Now I offer to help and she says no, SHE WILL BE OK. 

This is what will happen. 1. nothing or 2. she will call and ask me to help her last minute.

I just learned a lesson. Being as spineless as a turnip and doing what everyone is telling you not to do - is only making things worse, making me mad and feeding into her. 

I just fed in to her control issue and now I feel like a total idiot. Next time I feel like communicating, helping or doing anything, I will read this and remember how stupid and used I feel. 

I am intent on getting respect from now on. Really not happy with myself. I'm going silent and full 180. I am p!ssed at myself. I am tired of doing this to myself and serving up my self respect to her. UGH! 

I don't care if I ever hear from her again right now. Trying to right this has been such a waste of my time and energy and totally taken me away from my goals, mission and myself. She doesn't care. That't the take away. She doesn't care.

I am better than this and better than her. I never want to be with someone like this again.


----------



## AFEH

You are doing really well but it can really hit you when you realise and accept that your wife just doesn’t care about you. The ego can take a hit but at the same time it is a massive step forward for you. So give yourself a bit of a treat.

Maybe next look into personal boundaries. These are boundaries concerning how you treat others and how you let others treat you. N.U.T.s. is a good one take a look at Relationship Book, Self Help Relationship Book For a Man, Best Manual for Men.


----------



## turnera

AFEH said:


> N.U.T.s. is a good one take a look at Relationship Book, Self Help Relationship Book For a Man, Best Manual for Men.


Probably my favorite book for men to read. I bought it, thinking I would 'teach' my husband how to be a good husband, but I ended up learning what BOTH of our roles should be.


----------



## Bigrascal

Thanks guys. I've started reading the nuts book, but not the second. 

I was upset yesterday not about her caring or not, but because I really saw her manipulation clearly for what it was and how I've fallen into it and eroded respect. 

I went out last night with friends. She texted me and called starting at 5:30. Accused me of being on a date. Said she had to take a Xanax because she was worried. Asked me to call her. Told her I was having drinks and couldn't. 

My w is weird. Without control she doesn't know what to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

The first time I was aware of my wife’s manipulation was when driving the car. My younger son was in front with me, my wife in the back. She poked me which triggered an angry response. I looked in the review mirror and saw a massively smug look on her face. The second time was when having a mate round for dinner. She’d set the table up so we were at either end with my mate in the middle, first time it was laid out that way and I thought it unusual. Then during the meal my wife poked me from the other end of the table. It was strange in that when she did it she put her chin down to the left to touch her collar bone as though I was about to hit her. In 42 years I never laid a hand on her even under the most extreme provocation.

You just don’t see it when you are being manipulated by an “expert”. All you do is respond, like putty in their hands. Since being separated from my wife I’ve now had 4 women friends (all well married) that we were friends with tell me of their own volition they could see just how much I was being manipulated. But the person being manipulated is blind to these things.

But that 180, by stepping out of the manipulative dynamics we truly to get to see what’s going on and by looking back what’s been going on. It can be a real eye opener. Read that Awareness book and your eyes will be opened even more to what goes on around you, not just with your wife but in every part of your life.


----------



## Bigrascal

Thanks. The manipulation is eye opening as well as the dynamic. I have a need to engage that I need to really figure out and just stop. She pokes me and I respond. You teach people how to treat you and I need to figure out what I have done to contribute to this - obviously boundary setting

After the texts from the other night, she asked to call her. She asked me to help her with a new tv she bought. I set it up. We talked about us and about how we are taking a "break," but that this could be it. We both need to get our bearings and see if we want to stay together. I stayed over, but we were not intimate.

My intent for the week is to make no initial contact. My IC says she will contact me, text me or call me in the next couple of days and that I need to wait 30 minutes before I respond.

He says minimal to no contact is the only way to save what we have if it is salvageable.

It's really hard to be apart, though. I miss my neighborhood, my house, my wife, my yard. I'm living out of a suitcase at a friends house. I will be ok. I'm really trying to regain my center and move through this in a healthy way. Being sad and hurting is ok, but I will not suffer.


----------



## turnera

I tell people to look at this like getting your Masters or PhD. You know the next year is going to suck big time, but it's necessary. So, steel yourself for not getting your needs met for a set time, and just move forward with purpose and mindfulness. Make everything count.


----------



## turnera

I thought you said you were staying at home. Why haven't you moved back home?


----------



## Bigrascal

turnera said:


> I thought you said you were staying at home. Why haven't you moved back home?


No. We are separating/separated. I had an apartment lined up in the city, but changed my mind as it was a bit depressing.

I'm staying with a friend and looking for a place that speaks to me. It will happen soon and then I will feel better.

I saw her this morning and went to IC. Things are a bit raw this afternoon. 

I'm going to go to a coffee shop and read the NUTS book and another recommended by my therapist. Thinking of joining the betterman.org group too. I really want tow work on myself, get my hobbies back and be the man I used to be before this mess of a toxic marriage.

Thanks to all for their advice and support. It has really helped.


----------



## Bigrascal

Thanks for the feedback Gitdoun. I'm trying hard to do the 180. I think that getting in touch with her so soon after moving out took some of the effectiveness out of my actions and that is unfortunate.

I know it's only Wednesday and the last time a I saw her was Saturday morning, but it seems like forever.

I texted her Monday morning telling her that I had deposited money into our account for some home repairs we are having done - the text was business like and to the point. Got an immediate response from her telling me how the repairs were going and hinting that she might need some more money for them. I didn't respond and that's where we are at right now.

It seems like forever and it seems like without contact there is no hope for reconciliation - and there may not be. I don't know right now if that's even what I want anymore.

I'm focusing on myself and my business. I'm actively trying to avoid thinking about my W and dwelling on how bad I feel. When I do think about it, I try to think of mistakes I have made and why and whether she is really right for me or not.

Going on a betterman.org retreat next weekend and just trying to get myself together and feeling good. I want to regain my power, focus and clarity. I lost so much over the last 6 months. 

Focusing on my W and trying to fix things was so draining and exhausting for so long. It actually feels good to have the space and time. I don't plan on making any more first contacts.

If there is any hope at reconciliation, that's the only way.


----------



## turnera

Excellent. Let us know how the retreat is.


----------



## Bigrascal

Well. Just venting. I have a strong desire to contact my W via phone this afternoon, but will not. I have no reason to other than I miss her. Staying pretty straight on the 180 - for all of 1 week. It does seem like forever, though.

Went to a metting at a hotel this afternoon where we stayed for her birthday 6 months ago. Hit me a bit hard. Synced my iPhone this afternoon and iPhoto came up instantly with all her pictures. 

Went to IC yesterday and going again tomorrow. It really helps to just talk this stuff out. Interestingly he told me that we are not a match, that she has many issues (as do I) to work on during this separation. I'm ramping my my IC visits (insurance covers it) and doing lots of self reflection. He said that I gave up my power in this relationship and did other things to gain my power back that were not healthy (passive aggressive things). Think about that - this is essentially what guys here are saying - Man up, set boundaries and be true to yourself - because when you don't and are not, bad things happen. You will try to get your power back, but not in the best ways. This is an important life lesson for me.

He said that without my W doing similar work, he can't see us working out. I believe she is cutting her IC session to every other week now and not every week. Does not bode well.

I'm continuing with the 180. Received some texts from her on Wednesday, but deleted them without reading. Can't deal with communicating with her right now and I know I will just be tempted to read them, analyze them and respond.


----------



## FirstYearDown

Your wife is a childish and moody piece of work. She needs counseling and perhaps medication, traditional or holistic.

My husband does a lot for me, since I cannot drive. Yet I functioned well without him before we met and I will continue to do so. No way would I walk around IKEA, weeping like a lost toddler just because my husband wasn't there. 

I have a lot of issues from growing up being abused in many ways. I have taken responsibility for my behaviour and attend therapy. I also admit when I am wrong and laugh at myself. 

You say that you miss your wife and that makes me wonder....what exactly do you miss? The nagging? The ever changing needs? The alarmingly dependent attitude? :scratchhead: It may be hard for you to see this now, but unless your wife takes some steps to change, YOU ARE BETTER OFF WITHOUT HER.


----------



## WayTooAverage

Bigrascal I can so related to your original post! No matter what you do it's not good enough. Man, I feel your pain! Thank you for turning me on to the term "beta-ization." I am going to have to look more into this word.


----------



## Bigrascal

WayTooAverage said:


> Bigrascal I can so related to your original post! No matter what you do it's not good enough. Man, I feel your pain! Thank you for turning me on to the term "beta-ization." I am going to have to look more into this word.


I got it from this site: 

Chateau Heartiste

This site has been referenced in other posts. It's got some good insights. I think the posts on Hawaiian Dave and his revelations are particularly good.


----------



## Bigrascal

Just venting. Having a bad day today. Went to IC this morning. Tough stuff today. Apparently I have codependent tendencies. Never thought I had them in past relationships and think it was just from trying so hard to save this mess of a marriage.

Went for a drive along the coast, but it just made me think of her and us.

Feel so like texting or calling the W. Last communication was from her on Wednesday which I didn't respond to. It seems like an eternity since I've seen her, but it's only been a week today.

I won't call or text her, I will keep up with the 180. At the office now and can't get any work done.

Thinking of going to a movie to take my mind off of things. I hope this gets easier.


----------



## AFEH

Why not make an “appointment” with your wife some time in the future, say three months or longer, where you can sit down with her and discuss how the two of you have felt during the separation and explore if you want to continue with it, reconcile or go for a divorce? Before your get together it may be good for you to both write out your thoughts and feelings and give them to one another before you get together. Three months in the scheme of a lifetime is nothing, most especially if it helps you both make the best decision. You’ll need at least that amount of time to somewhat “uncouple” or untangle from your wife and start thinking for yourself and no longer for the two of you. That took me about 18 months but I was with my wife a very long time.


----------



## swedish

turnera said:


> I tell people to look at this like getting your Masters or PhD. You know the next year is going to suck big time, but it's necessary. So, steel yourself for not getting your needs met for a set time, and just move forward with purpose and mindfulness. Make everything count.


Nice!


----------



## Jron

finding someone else is useless...I have been there and found that it worked in the beginning but after a period of time, they all become the same monster....**Just my experience not saying all women are like this**


----------



## Deejo

Jron said:


> finding someone else is useless...I have been there and found that it worked in the beginning but after a period of time, they all become the same monster....**Just my experience not saying all women are like this**


At which point, you'd better be prepared to take a very hard look at what YOU are doing that contributes to making the monster, or why YOU consistently choose a woman that will ultimately see themselves as more important in the relationship, than they see you.


----------



## Jron

interesting.......


----------



## Bigrascal

It is interesting. In my MC the therapist said these issues (our issues) will need to be dealt with or they will repeat themselves in other relationships.

My IC has just started being incredibly helpful. Now that I'm out, we have been focusing on me rather than my relationship. I'm getting insight into why this relationship went down this road.

I've really ramped up the self discovery and am taking a good look at myself. What's strange is that I have not had this particular issue in past relationships, but I have issues that nee to be dealt with so that I don't repeat this with someone new or with the W.

We are both 100% responsible for what happened and the architects or our relationship.

Unfortunately, my W is tapering off her IC (I think) and still blames me for everything that went wrong in the relationship. (I'm still in 180 mode for a whole total of 9 days - which seems like an eternity).

A book that I have been reading and that has been ver insightful is "Is it love or is it addiction." 

It really gives you hope that you can actually change your negative behaviors. 

Amazon.com: Is It Love or Is It Addiction? - Second Edition (9781568381404): Brenda Schaeffer: Books

Also going to the NUTS retreat this weekend. Joining a new gym and going to take a cooking class also thinking about taking dancing lessons - maybe wood working too. The possibilities are endless.

I am determined never to make these same mistakes. Not being around the W has really helped me get focus and clarity. It's hard not talking to her, but it's getting a bit easer. I have moments throughout the day where it hurts, but I'm making it.


----------



## AFEH

You’ve come a long way in such a short space of time. It’s really good to hear it and an inspiration to others. It’s a pity if your wife has dropped off on the IC, it would be a big sign of her seeing herself as “perfect” and unwilling to change.


----------



## Bigrascal

AFEH said:


> You’ve come a long way in such a short space of time. It’s really good to hear it and an inspiration to others. It’s a pity if your wife has dropped off on the IC, it would be a big sign of her seeing herself as “perfect” and unwilling to change.


Thanks. The only way I can get through this is to use it as an opportunity for self reflection and growth. I really want to understand why I made some bad decisions getting into this marriage and then allowing things to deteriorate.

I go back and read this post and think back on some of the things my w has said to me and it is appalling to think that I let someone treat me this way. I endured for the sake of trying to fix things and make them better (there are issues there, though as to why I kept trying -which are my issues: needing validation, self-esteem, co-dependency).

I haven't seen her for 10 days and have so much more clarity and focus. It seems like an eternity. I miss her and it's very hard, but it is good for me.

It's unfortunate that she sees everything as my fault. My therapist said that she is looking at the alcohol and blaming it for her addiction, but the alcohol doesn't make you an alcoholic.

I truly hope she uses this time to look at herself and get her center back. If she doesn't there really is no hope for us. The thing is - she has to want to do it and I think she is still stuck in denial. Her therapist seems to support her view of things and has apparently told her that she needs to take control and stand up for herself. 

This seems to be the exact wrong advice for her. But - this isn't about her anymore. It's about me.

I think Conrad posted a quote about holding your hand out to your spouse while you go on a journey to get to a healthy relationship. All you can do is hope they come with you and take your hand - and if they don't - they don't. 

My w seems to be fine just where she is at. Though with my 180 she isn't really seeing my hand.


----------



## Deejo

Bigrascal said:


> Her therapist seems to support her view of things and has apparently told her that she needs to take control and stand up for herself.
> 
> This seems to be the exact wrong advice for her. But - this isn't about her anymore. It's about me.
> 
> I think Conrad posted a quote about holding your hand out to your spouse while you go on a journey to get to a healthy relationship. All you can do is hope they come with you and take your hand - and if they don't - they don't.
> 
> My w seems to be fine just where she is at. Though with my 180 she isn't really seeing my hand.


That is an important recognition about therapy. Often the therapist doesn't actually care about what is 'real'. They address what they have in front of them. If your wife sees you as an undependable control freak, her therapist isn't going to do anything to change that view ... but instead, 'empower' your wife to take control of her own life, and quite possibly, entrench her view of you rather than taking responsibility for her own behavior ... as you are doing in your therapy. This happened with my ex as well. There were big issues. But rather than learning to cope with and address those issues, my ex and her therapist looked for surrogates for their cause. My 'control' issues was one of them. No one in my entire life, family, friends, or former lovers would EVER describe me as controlling.

Your insight is what is going to keep moving you forward. You 'get it'. It isn't about her anymore, nor should it be.
I think what will become apparent to you, as it did to me over time, is that your partner hit's a peak for growth. She can't move past that peak. And the reality is, you are still growing.

The right thing doesn't always feel like the right thing. But trust me, you are doing the right thing for yourself, and invariably your marriage, regardless of whether or not you reconcile.


----------



## AFEH

Deejo said:


> Your insight is what is going to keep moving you forward. You 'get it'. It isn't about her anymore, nor should it be.
> I think what will become apparent to you, as it did to me over time, is that your partner hit's a peak for growth. She can't move past that peak. And the reality is, you are still growing.


That is so very true. If I was being really contemptuous (which I feel like being but it would be very unfair) I’d say that my stbxw’s growth froze at age seven. But that’s only in some areas although they were very key areas. In other areas she was way more mature than me. But it was the seven year old in her that was holding back my growth and the only way I could get back on my path to individuation was to continue my life’s journey without my wife by my side.


----------



## Bigrascal

Thanks. I'm feeling strong some days (but other days I'm a total mess - or even in the same day). 

I know it's important for me to crack this nut. Being away from all the crazy making behavior and negativity is so helpful. I was/am so beat down from the constant criticism. I'm starting to regain my center and feel normal. I want to get back to the person I was when I first met the w. That guy had a swagger and was fun and confident. 


The longing for the wife is so strong - things seem so final right now. I almost emailed her today re: the mortgage, but stopped myself. There is no sense of urgency for that right now.
She needs time to feel what it's like to be without me. It's been a week and a half since we last saw each other and almost 3 weeks since I went to stay with a friend. She texted me a week ago today, but I didn't respond or read the texts.

My therapist is only concerned about my reality and my perceptions - but at least I understand there are two sides to every story and I can ask for validation re: what the w believes about me. He tends to discount her beliefs though. He says what she believes is irrelevant. It's what I believe about myself that's important.

I don't know if the w actually has that capacity to really look at herself and see that she has some problems. I really don't. I feel sorry for her in some ways.

I think therapy is good and it has been insightful, but I want to be able to take it with a grain of salt. It's hard though because I question my judgment sometimes, But some things my therapist says come from a place of really not knowing who I am as a person and what I know I am capable of (in a good way) so i take him less seriously on certain topics.


----------



## Bigrascal

AFEH said:


> That is so very true. If I was being really contemptuous (which I feel like being but it would be very unfair) I’d say that my stbxw’s growth froze at age seven. But that’s only in some areas although they were very key areas. In other areas she was way more mature than me. But it was the seven year old in her that was holding back my growth and the only way I could get back on my path to individuation was to continue my life’s journey without my wife by my side.


This is so true. My wife has some issues she really needs to deal with. She has such unreasonable expectations re: what a marriage should be. She wants someone to take all of the stress off of her and treat her like a 10 year old girl. 

She is looking to me to give balance to her life - when she needs to find balance for her self first. How can I possibly be successful in that scenario? It's literally all about her. The relationship has to focus on her needs and meeting them.

If she can't see that she needs to look inside herself and do the work and grow as a person, I can't continue on a path with her. I will sacrifice too much of myself in the process. I'm just not willing to do that anymore.


----------



## AFEH

I think it’s good to take everything with a grain of salt. Most especially what our wife thinks about us (or says what she thinks about us which can be two very different things depending on the outcome they want) at any given point in time.


----------



## AFEH

Bigrascal said:


> This is so true. My wife has some issues she really needs to deal with. She has such unreasonable expectations re: what a marriage should be. She wants someone to take all of the stress off of her and treat her like a 10 year old girl.
> 
> She is looking to me to give balance to her life - when she needs to find balance for her self first. How can I possibly be successful in that scenario? It's literally all about her. The relationship has to focus on her needs and meeting them.
> 
> If she can't see that she needs to look inside herself and do the work and grow as a person, I can't continue on a path with her. I will sacrifice too much of myself in the process. I'm just not willing to do that anymore.


There's an immense amount of wisdom in your words. I can probably see that very much more than you can.


----------



## AFEH

Bigrascal said:


> This is so true. My wife has some issues she really needs to deal with. She has such unreasonable expectations re: what a marriage should be. She wants someone to take all of the stress off of her and treat her like a 10 year old girl.
> 
> She is looking to me to give balance to her life - when she needs to find balance for her self first. How can I possibly be successful in that scenario? It's literally all about her. The relationship has to focus on her needs and meeting them.
> 
> If she can't see that she needs to look inside herself and do the work and grow as a person, I can't continue on a path with her. I will sacrifice too much of myself in the process. I'm just not willing to do that anymore.


Ha! This is what my wife wrote to my youngest son some 6 months after we’d separated. It went something like “He did a great deal to make me feel appreciated, wanted, loved and happy. He did a great deal more than me, I should have tried much harder than I ever did to make him feel appreciated, wanted and happy.”.


----------



## turnera

Bigrascal said:


> She wants someone to take all of the stress off of her and treat her like a 10 year old girl.


Many, many women marry a man, expecting him to replace her father; just as many men expect their wives to replace their mother (but usually in a more physical way, i.e. housework, etc.).

But I've seen lots of women WANT this...until they don't. Until they finally feel 'safe' being an adult and then bristle at the yolk of having a father figure judging them. And then they cheat, to prove he's not her dad. Sad, but common.


----------



## Bigrascal

turnera said:


> Many, many women marry a man, expecting him to replace her father; just as many men expect their wives to replace their mother (but usually in a more physical way, i.e. housework, etc.).
> 
> But I've seen lots of women WANT this...until they don't. Until they finally feel 'safe' being an adult and then bristle at the yolk of having a father figure judging them. And then they cheat, to prove he's not her dad. Sad, but common.


I think wanting a father figure is common and fine. Everyone wants to be taken care of. Wanting someone to decrease stress in your life and share the load is good. Even being taken care of like a child can be good too.

But there's a difference between wanting all of those things because you can't provide any of it for yourself and wanting someone to simply supplement what you bring to the table already.

Looking for someone else to PROVIDE the stability in your life is a losing proposing. With my caregiving tendencies i was totally set up to try to provide those things to my w. 

I couldn't though. Partly b/c she changed the game all the time to continue to get me to seek validation from her and partly b/c you just are set up to fail in that construct.

All of this is about degrees. Women want strong men that act like a rock - that provide stability and direction. There's nothing wrong with that and that's the way it is. 

It's also good to be a caregiver, but when you do it without regard to what you are getting out of the relationship - to your own detriment - it's a problem. 

My goal right not is to work on re-gaining my power. I don't ever again want to put someone else's needs above my own. It causes too much pain. Looking for a partner with a reasonably good sense of self esteem is high on my list.

At this point my hopes for any reconciliation are fading - but that's I a mindset I'm embracing for the sake of just being healthy.


----------



## AFEH

Our behaviour follows our “Golden Rules of Life”. Our golden rules are there to protect what it is we value and believe in. I value not being a thief? I have a rule “I do not steal”.

You are changing some of your Golden Rules of Life and therefore your behaviour is changing, as is what you valued and what you believed in. To keep on the path you’ve chosen you need good impulse control. Every time you feel an impulse to behave like you did in the past, to do something that would compromise a new Golden Rule, you just need to say no to that impulse and you are doing that very well. I used impulse control to stop smoking after 50 years, the worse time was the first 3 weeks. Six months later I dont even think about smoking unless I get a trigger like someone smoking next to me.

This is the way we develop new habits which protect our new Golden Rules which are there to protect what it is we value and what it is we believe in. The will power comes in saying no the next time we get the impulse to go back to an old habit, an old Golden Rule. And in this way we rebuild our dignity, self-belief, self-respect and self-esteem after they’ve been battered by one of our life’s downtimes. It takes some time but it's so very well worth it, there's a lot of return on investing in ourselves.


----------



## IanIronwood

Bigrascal said:


> I think wanting a father figure is common and fine. Everyone wants to be taken care of. Wanting someone to decrease stress in your life and share the load is good. Even being taken care of like a child can be good too.
> 
> But there's a difference between wanting all of those things because you can't provide any of it for yourself and wanting someone to simply supplement what you bring to the table already.
> 
> Looking for someone else to PROVIDE the stability in your life is a losing proposing. With my caregiving tendencies i was totally set up to try to provide those things to my w.
> 
> I couldn't though. Partly b/c she changed the game all the time to continue to get me to seek validation from her and partly b/c you just are set up to fail in that construct.
> 
> All of this is about degrees. Women want strong men that act like a rock - that provide stability and direction. There's nothing wrong with that and that's the way it is.
> 
> It's also good to be a caregiver, but when you do it without regard to what you are getting out of the relationship - to your own detriment - it's a problem.
> 
> My goal right not is to work on re-gaining my power. I don't ever again want to put someone else's needs above my own. It causes too much pain. Looking for a partner with a reasonably good sense of self esteem is high on my list.
> 
> At this point my hopes for any reconciliation are fading - but that's I a mindset I'm embracing for the sake of just being healthy.


I've just worked my way through your posts up to this point, and I have a few comments:

1) reconciliation is not out of the question, even at this stage of the game. However, the two people who were in the relationship won't work -- both of you will have to change for it to work, and it sounds like she's a day late and a dollar short on that.

2) even if you haven't communicated with her, you can bet that this break-up is emotionally devastating her. I know, I've been in relationships with control freaks before, and they simply CANNOT STAND the fact that their relationship got out of their control. My guess? She can't find anything concrete to blame herself for, so she'll be lashing out at you. She won't be able to confide in you about how you're screwing up her life and her carefully-made plans, so she'll be chewing the ear off of one or more of her best female friends.

3) If you really want to demonstrate her lack of control over you (which will, at the same time, both frustrate and excite her), then call up her closest single female friend and invite her out for dinner. Just friendly, friend stuff, but it will certainly get back to her and up the ante on her own emotional journey. That could be a good thing or a bad thing, but it will likely get some stuff moving.

4) Next time you hear or read the word "selfish" come from her, politely tell her that you will be happy to re-engage in the conversation when she is willing to stop using that hurtful term.

5) you've mentioned repeatedly that you are "conflict avoidant." I've been there, and it usually stems from an irrational fear or an early childhood prohibition against hurting others or being hurt yourself. You want to fix this part of your life? Either go to IC for another decade and slowly emerge from your shell, or sack up and decide that you are going to change. Personally I'm a fan of CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, not the sexual variation) which at its core stresses confronting those forces that master us head-on. In your case, you've been in a dominating relationship for so long you've probably forgotten what the sweet smell of testosterone in the morning can be like. If I were you, I would start pursuing forms of entertainment or pastimes which emphasize conflict, not avoid it. I'm not advocating professional wrestling or anything, but perhaps if you filled your personal mythology with examples of men who not only endure conflict, but seek it out so that they may competently deal with it. Think Conan, Batman, and James Bond, three icons of aggressive masculinity. Next time you're in a situation where she's trying to exercise control over you, even after you've moved out (and if it hasn't happened yet, it will) then channel a little Conan. What would the sword-slinging barbarian say when a wisp of silk and fluff told him that he was being "selfish"? I can guarantee it wouldn't be a thoughtful, well-reasoned response. So show her some of your inner Conan. Especially if its not the sort of thing she's used to. You'd be surprised how effective a sudden display of aggressive, non-violent behavior can be.

6) Run, don't walk, to Athol's outstanding website, Married Man Sex Life. Read it. Buy his book. Absorb his advice. He is the Yoda of how to deal with a wife, and even if the information doesn't help out in this relationship, it will in the next. And somehow I think that if you let your wife see a little of the different you, that will alter her perspective on you and the relationship significantly.

Actually, if she's not certifiably bat-sh!t nuts, you aren't in a bad position to consider a reconciliation eventually. You could even get the relationship you want, if you play your cards right. But not if you're willing to put up with her daily dose of crap, disrespect, and focus on you as the problem. You have to cut that out of your life entirely. You might have issues, but it's not your fault she can't manage one simple man in a relationship, and by Crom there's no reason why you should have to put up with that BS in any relationship.


----------



## Bigrascal

Thanks for your comment and reading through this now very long post. 

I think you are spot on. Reconciliation might work, but only if we both change. 

I am committed to it (change)- devouring good books I can find on what I perceive as my issues, ramping up my IC and really, really trying to get to the bottom of this. I'm still doing the 180. It's been 2.5 weeks since I saw her last and 2 weeks since she texted me. The space has been good to clear my head. But I will be honest, it is incredibly difficult to not hear from her. I want to know she misses me and is hurting.

I cycle back and forth between missing her and wanting to reconcile and just not wanting to have anything to do with her again. I was in her home state over the weekend and it reminded me of trips we had taken together earlier this year (a couple of months ago). 

The emotions were running high. My desire to contact her is low right now. I just couldn't handle talking to her. I think I would get way too emotional and needy.

We have no kids, we were not married very long and we are both relatively young. Moving on seems easy. If she is committed to seeing and working on her issues, then we have a chance. I just don't think she has the desire to do that - but I'm not sure since I'm not communicating with her. Everything is my fault.

I've been tempted to send her some books I've been reading to help her (or to show her that I am really trying to change), but I don't think I will do that. It breaks the 180 and puts me in a subservient position.


----------



## AFEH

Bigrascal said:


> Thanks for your comment and reading through this now very long post.
> 
> I think you are spot on. Reconciliation might work, but only if we both change.
> 
> I am committed to it (change)- devouring good books I can find on what I perceive as my issues, ramping up my IC and really, really trying to get to the bottom of this. I'm still doing the 180. It's been 2.5 weeks since I saw her last and 2 weeks since she texted me. The space has been good to clear my head. But I will be honest, it is incredibly difficult to not hear from her. I want to know she misses me and is hurting.
> 
> I cycle back and forth between missing her and wanting to reconcile and just not wanting to have anything to do with her again. I was in her home state over the weekend and it reminded me of trips we had taken together earlier this year (a couple of months ago).
> 
> The emotions were running high. My desire to contact her is low right now. I just couldn't handle talking to her. I think I would get way too emotional and needy.
> 
> We have no kids, we were not married very long and we are both relatively young. Moving on seems easy. If she is committed to seeing and working on her issues, then we have a chance. I just don't think she has the desire to do that - but I'm not sure since I'm not communicating with her. Everything is my fault.
> 
> I've been tempted to send her some books I've been reading to help her (or to show her that I am really trying to change), but I don't think I will do that. It breaks the 180 and puts me in a subservient position.


Bigrascal, 2.5 weeks on your journey in your life is very much less than a blink of an eye. Very much less. I feel you are doing really well.

You are breaking your addiction. That is never a bad thing.


----------



## Bigrascal

AFEH - Thanks. It feels like forever right now. You are right. It is an addiction. It feels like withdrawal. I was so used to the emotional ups and downs - the drama, the eggshells, the crazy making, the co-dpendency, the constant sh!t testing, the criticism. 

The good moments when we seemed like we really could make it offered so much hope. 

It's all gone now and there is such a void. As hard as living in the void is, it's better than the negativity, but it is hard to be without all of that stimulation.

I hope that she uses this time to really change and then we can reconcile and that she and I can be different. I can't imagine living life under the constant criticism and negativity again.


----------



## AFEH

I think the void lasts a while, too long. And the temptation to fill it with the woman we know is huge. After nearly two years I still feel like going there. But I know that territory and I got seriously hurt. So I will not go back again. It does not have to be the same way for you and you know that.


----------



## Bigrascal

I'm having issues with the 180. I have not had any contact with my w for 2.5 weeks (where she sent me a text). I have not seen her for 3 weeks.

She texted me last night and left a vm. 

I used our joint account while out of state and she was asking me about it. Now, I will admit that I did this on purpose. I wanted her to see that I was out and about doing things. The charge was nominal.

I didn't really expect her to contact me, I just wanted her to know that I am the "man on the motorcycle."

So it's had its desired impact. I felt good that she communicated with me, though I haven't listened to the vm and probably will not.

When do you start communicating with your w while you are doing the 180? I mean there's really nothing for me to say to her right now. She may need some help with the mortgage and some expenses and I need to pick some things up from the house, but there isn't a rusk with most of it and it doesn't require a phone conversation.

My challenge is: how do you begin a process of possible reconciliation when you are not in contact? I guess the answer is that you cannot. The 180 helps you to de-couple and get back on track for yourself. But how does the w see that I am doing these things If I continue no contact?

I'm not sure that I want to reconcile right now, though. So perhaps the answer is to wait to return contact until I know what I want. I also think that a phone call right now would do more bad for me than good. My intent here is to look attractive and like I'm the man she fell in love with - not some miserable and spineless turnip.

Of course, this whole thing could be counterproductive as she had accused me of abandoning her - which this must really feel like.


----------



## turnera

Everything you say shouts out that you are not ready to see her. It wouldn't work anyway. You do the 180 to show her you don't NEED her, AND you do it to teach YOURSELF that you deserve better. 

Focusing on her and what her reactions are and what she's thinking are NOT 180.

And it's not a trick to get her back. You don't go 180 and then extend an olive branch. You do it and get on with your life and IF she finds she misses and wants you, SHE can extend it, apologize for what she's done, and ask you what it would take for you to take her back. 

Anything other than that is a false recovery and you will only get hurt again.

If she's not pursuing you, you don't want her.


----------



## Deejo

turnera said:


> Everything you say shouts out that you are not ready to see her. It wouldn't work anyway. You do the 180 to show her you don't NEED her, AND you do it to teach YOURSELF that you deserve better.
> 
> Focusing on her and what her reactions are and what she's thinking are NOT 180.
> 
> And it's not a trick to get her back. You don't go 180 and then extend an olive branch. You do it and get on with your life and IF she finds she misses and wants you, SHE can extend it, apologize for what she's done, and ask you what it would take for you to take her back.
> 
> Anything other than that is a false recovery and you will only get hurt again.
> 
> If she's not pursuing you, you don't want her.


That's pretty much it.

If you MUST deal with her, then so be it. But all she is doing at this point is 'probing'. She hasn't changed a blessed thing. If anything she only wants to know when you will be so kind as to take your place and be her punching bag again ... and you know this. Don't do it. Or ... do it if for no other reason than to prove to yourself that she ISN'T going to invest herself in recovery.

As an added item ... there is nothing that says "I still have you..." like money. Split out the joint account. Separate is separate ... and despite her claims of abandonment ... this is what she wanted, as stated over and over again.


----------



## AFEH

BR, I know my conditions for taking my wife back. I know EXACTLY what she has to do to get back into my life again. But I am not going to tell her what it is, far less actually ask her to do it. She has to come to these things of her own accord.

She will only ever get where she needs to be for me through a great deal of introspection and an understanding and acceptance of her side of the break-up of our marriage. That is she will not only have to discover and realise the part she played, but also she’ll have to own up to it and make apologies to me before I’d ever take her back.

I don’t actually hold out any hope whatsoever that these things will happen. Even though I’ve heard she thinks she made a mistake and she wants back with me.

Meanwhile I know I am happy without her and I know if I were to get back with her with no change deep inside herself I would again at some time in the future experience great sadness and possibly despair. She’ll never do that to me again and that’s why I NEED to see change within her before I’d take her back.

But there is absolutely no reason why you should not be totally honest and open with your wife about what you are doing and why you are doing it. Just write her a letter and tell her you do not need a response. Also there is no reason at all why you should not have “business dialogues”.




I think at some stage we learn to make our love conditional and it stops being an unconditional love. I think unconditional love is wrong and just opens us up for abuse. So maybe think on what your conditions are for you to love your wife again. These will be your golden values and golden rules, protected by your boundaries. So what are your personal boundaries to take your wife back into your life again?


----------



## F-102

What's that old saying about if she comes back, she's yours-if not, it wasn't meant to be?


----------



## Bigrascal

Well. I responded to her vm via text 3 days later. It was a 5 word text telling her that charges on our account were from our MC and not from me seeking "mental health" help. Simple and to the point.

She responds instantly with a couple more texts - probing. Telling me I have mail and asking if I need it. I know her and she is testing to see if I will invest enough to come to the house and pick up the mail up or ask her to send it to my work. 

I don't respond to them. 

Late last night she texts me asking why I'm out of town. I haven't told her I'm out of town - so she is looking at my Facebook apparently or talking to people. I respond "business trip."

So this morning I get a long text telling me how she doesn't like not communicating and that it's hard for her but apparently easier for me but still we need to tie up some loose things. She wants the name of the MC so she can call her and ask why we were charged.

The MC's card was on a desk in the house, so she should have the contact info. Notice that there is no I miss you or I want to work on this or I realize that you are not really selfish etc. It looks like she is just seeking validation from me. Wanting me to step into the punching bag role again. She actually seems final with the "tie up" comment, but who knows.

The communication is not good for me. I'm thinking too much and it's throwing me into a little funk. Regardless, If I respond it will only be with the name/number of the therapist and It won't be until tomorrow afternoon. But the problem is that a response begets more communication - which Is not helping me right now.


----------



## Deejo

What is important, and extraordinarily positive ... is that you see it for what it is. You're paying attention.

Doesn't make it hurt any less.

You may not think so, but trust me, you are doing extraordinarily well.


----------



## turnera

She can figure it out herself. Don't respond.


----------



## AFEH

Part of the 180 is taking your SELF out of the equation of the dynamics between you and your wife. That’s a massive part of what the 180 is about. And it’s done so you can better understand your wife.

So now you can just observe your wife. What does she do when you no longer interact with her? Think on say watching a cat in the garden, hunting or playing. All you’re doing is watching, observing it. You don’t interact with the cat because that would change it’s behaviour dependent on what you do. And you don’t want that to happen. You want the cat to do what its motivated to all by itself so you can understand the cat’s behaviour and therefore the cat itself.

So observe your wife as a disinterested third party person would. But you can also observe your self and the dynamics between you and your wife as a disinterested third party as well. Practice by “putting” your eyes up in the corner of the room and just observe your SELF.

And when you become the observer of your SELF and the world you have created around your SELF you will become more and more SELF aware. And the more self aware you become the more change will start happening. But it’s strange, in that the change seems to happen all by itself. Just by observing your self. It’s like the less we try, the easier it is to effect change in our lives. But keep on observing your self and you will keep on actually noticing those changes.

When you feel those confusing emotions just experience them while at the same time say to yourself “This too shall pass”.


----------



## Archie

Rascal, your wife doesn't respect you. Sorry to be blunt.
It sounds as if it's nothing you have/haven't done, it's just that some people are miserable. Until THAT gets fixed, not alot you can do.
In the meantime, establish a "who's doing what" task list with regard to home. Stick to your end of it and let her know you expect her to stick to hers.
Do NOT tolerate malicious criticism; it's an inroad to having yourself subjected to her own self-perception.
When/if she verbally attacks you, use statements like "If you have a complaint, get it out because the rest is uninteresting and non-productive", "is there a point to this conversation", etc. Hold your ground and refuse to be belittled.
If she refuses to submit (powerful word there) to counselling or activity that may help both her and your marriage, the relationship may be lost.
A pastor or spiritual mentor could be a huge help to you now, IMO.
People and couples often completely ignore the fact that Love and committment grow from a spiritual union of two people. Wishin' you the best, amigo.


----------



## F-102

last post here was 6 mos. ago!


----------



## Archie

Thanks for YOUR help resurrecting it


----------



## Bigrascal

It’s been about a year since my last post. I wanted to give those that responded a quick update. I also wanted to thank each and every one of the people that took the time to read my posts and those that responded: Conrad, Deejo AFEH, Tunera (to name just a few)

Most of the advice I received was spot on and all of it was helpful. For me TAM was an incredible resource that helped me immensely.

On September 2nd of last year I moved out of my STBXW’s house unexpectedly. The problems I was having are so similar to what other men have who post here. In some ways it’s a blue print: sh!t tests, crazymaking, goal shifting, blaming, never being able to do anything right, “I don’t love you anymore.”

I just re-read my posts and the advice given. My desperation and pain aren’t fully captured in those posts. It was a horrible time in my life.

The past year has been difficult, but not as difficult as being in the eye of that horrible, horrible storm.

What’s happened since my last post:

She made some efforts at reconciliation in the first few months of our separation. I ignored them for the most part as I continued to work on myself via IC and tried to recover from what was an emotionally abusive relationship. While I loved her, I realized I simply did not like her as a person.

I loved the image, her beauty, her well off family – But I did not like her. Her need to control every aspect of life, her unhappiness, her anxiety and unreasonable expectations of marriage (e.g., you should be my savior not my partner) were just things that were not compatible with how I want to live.

I’m still raw from this, but happy that I was able to do what was right for myself and get out.

I wonder if I could have made it work and I believe that I could have, but it wasn’t all up to me. I truly do not believe she was emotionally advanced enough to have the necessary capacity for self-reflection and change. To go back to that and become mired in the craziness again with a hope that things might get better never seemed like a good option to me.

The irony of this is that I’ve made some changes and my business is on track. I am saving money. I have worked on myself and addressed certain issues. I’ve started to date and am dismissing women that have any hint of craziness. I have become a version of myself that I have no doubt she would have wanted.

We communicate very little now so she doesn’t get to see the improvements first hand, but I’m sure she senses it. 

My point in posting this is that many of our situations are similar. It is important to take a step back in these relationships and really focus on your strength and power as a person. You have to set your boundaries with your wife and when she crosses those boundaries and is disrespectful, you have to stand up and be ready to walk away.

It is incredibly difficult to do when you are in it and things have dissolved so much into pettiness.

Now – I couldn’t do it in the context of my marriage. I look back on a post I wrote about an argument with my wife re: stripping a porch and don’t know If I could deal with that situation any better today.

One huge reason for my failed marriage, though, was that I was with a person unwilling to respect any type of boundary I had re: respect. I may have also let it go on too long – that’s very possible – and because of that it may have been beyond repair. I don’t really know. Another reason is that I became affected by her moods and emotions and tried to placate them.

I remember early on my STBXW telling me how she liked how I dealt with her when I basically told her to shut up when she was ranting and raving about the cost and need of installing an Elfa closet system in the house while I was driving. Somewhere along the line, I lost that edge and started just placating her moods – incredibly bad move.

But that’s my takeaway from my failed relationship: don’t ever put up with the disrespect and nip it in the bud early on or watch things spiral way out of control. If your boundaries are not respected - you have to be ready to walk. Easier said then done, though.


----------



## turnera

Great update, thanks! Maybe you can stick around and help other men in your situation.


----------



## okeydokie

indeed a great post, sorry it happened the way it did but you sound like you are on the mend. please do stick around


----------



## AFEH

I think those boundaries truly amazing. In the face of abuse from a loved one, we often extend our patience, tolerance, understanding, empathy and compassion in the belief that it’s the right thing to do and in the hope that our abuser will change once they “see the light”.


But it just doesn’t work that way. In fact the very opposite happens and we become the enabler of the abuse and it gets worse because what we’ve been doing is actually rewarding their abuse and in some crazy way validating it as well. Yes, you are right to abuse me! Sort of thing.



We truly get to know our abusers real and authentic character once we put up a few boundaries of intolerance designed to defend ourselves against their mistreatment, their cruelty. Because when they crash right through our boundaries and continue with their abuse we understand perhaps for the very first time that their behaviour is pathological, they just can’t help abusing, they can't help bullying. It’s then we know it really is time to give up on them and let them go.


----------



## F-102

Great to hear of this, BR!

May I use my famous "50 smelly cats" analogy?


----------



## Deejo

I always tremendously admire when someone comes back and updates us on what is/has gone on.

I know how painful all of this is. Believe me I do. I don't take any joy from watching someone's marriage, their hopes and dreams, come undone.

But ... we learn. You have learned. You've grown as a result of very unfortunate circumstances.

Thanks again for updating us BigRascal. I do hope you choose to stick around and seek support, as well as contribute.

Like many others here, you have come out on the other side. Perhaps not with the outcome you had hoped for, but with knowledge and awareness of yourself and your relationship that you did not previously have.

Best wishes.


----------

