# How old before home alone after school?



## nice777guy

Wondering how old kids should be before they get off the bus, walk 1/2 block, let themselves in the house, and be trusted for 3 hours alone.

Any guidelines? Success stories? Lessons learned?

My oldest is 10 - I don't think she's ready yet. She's very smart and I don't think she'd set the house on fire or anything, so I'm just going off my gut.

If things don't get better soon, I'm going to be a single dad with two young girls and an ex-wife that I may want some additional distance from.

Just wondering what others do.


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## Amplexor

We let ours be home alone after school at ages around 11 & 12. Wife insisted on a security alarm. They were required to reset the alarm, do all homework before they could relax. Also they had to call one of us when safely in the house. Never had any real problems.


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## believer

my 9 year old is already asking but have told her not yet. think there might be a law in our state about minors being left alone - if I had to say an age that I think it might be it is 12?? you might want to check your state laws for guidance?? 
Or you could maybe set it up for a trial period of a month & then re- evaluate how you think it is going. 
do you have other alternatives - after care at school? relative? alternating pick up & care with a neighbor? 

good luck & hopefully I don't have to worry about this for a few more years


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## artieb

Here's a website with the laws listed:
Latchkey Kids Age Limits Listed By State

The people who maintain that site recommend age 12. I'd be sure the kids in question know of people around that they can call if needed. If there are a couple SAHMs on the street your kids are friendly with that helps a lot.


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## nice777guy

Funny...I kind of had "12" in my head before I'd even posted. At this point we have things covered but was kind of wondering for future reference.

Thx.


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## Atholk

It starts with 10 minute "I'm just going to the store" home alone trips. Then builds.

Get them a cell phone and a texting plan too. They love that stuff for when they are home and you are out. We have texts pinging all over the family now. It's really fun.


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## gobroncos6

I have an 8-yo child that walks home from the bus alone, but it's very close to our house and I can see her.  I'm always home when she gets here. I left her once to take my son to piano, but so far that's it. Baby steps. 

It depends on the child too. She's mature, smart and responsible. I trust her to not touch the oven or open the front door. 

It's still a little scary though and I don't want her to grow up too fast. Plenty of time to be home alone texting, etc.


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## Alexandra

I agree with the 12-year-old guideline. She might be ready at 11, but does she have other kids to look after or is she all by herself?

Good for you to be proactive and looking to set up a system for future reference. How about finding a decent neighbor or older kid you could trust to at least keep an eye on her? 3 hours seems a long time for a kid to be alone after school... but then again, I probably did that when I was a kid!


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## mujer_rota

i think I was 13 before i ever got left alone at home after school. These days, or at least when my son is a teen, I think I would be more comfortable with, say, 15ish?? Maybe that's a little shertering, but I would just want him to be safe.


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## Freak On a Leash

Both my kids are mature and dependable and my husband and I have an excellent relationship with them. I think each child is different and you have to go on your gut. One 12 year old may be ready for time alone while another might need to wait longer. 

When my kids were about 10-11 we started going out to run short (an hour or less) local errands during the day and leaving them home. The house was locked and my kids told about how to call 9-1-1 and they knew our cell phone numbers. 

At 11-12 they were permitted to let themselves in after school and stay home for a few hours. With my son, he had his older sister at home after about an hour of being by himself. I would call the kids soon after they arrived home to make sure they were home and everything was OK. 

By the time they were 12 they would spend the day home during the summer. Neither child had a problem being home alone. In fact my son loved it (he hated going to summer camp) and adjusted very well.

Now my son is 12 and will stay home for a few hours at night by himself as well. My 16 year old daughter is often with him. We are at the point where we are considering letting my daughter and son stay overnight by themselves while my husband and I do a local stay at a hotel for an "overnighter" just to see how it goes. 

Again, my kids are really good and well behaved. If they weren't we weren't be putting all this trust in them. You really have to know your kid to make these decisions. If I had a "problem" child who is going to wreck the house, have a bunch of friends over and raid the liquor closet then I wouldn't be doing any of this. As a parent, you have to use your best judgement here.


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## MarieJaniyaNelson

I'm coming to this late. I agree it's not up to the school. There's probably a state law. In California, I think it's 14. But as a friend of mine said, that's exactly when you don't want to start leaving kids home alone! The truth is that there is no good time to regularly leave kids home alone.

I left mine alone -- once in a great while -- starting when they were about 9, same as my parents did. But only if I had to and only if the kids were okay with it. Never any problems. I told them they couldn't use the stove while I was out and reminded them to get out if there was a fire, not to try to save anything,even the pets.

This weekend, I went out of town and they complained when I asked if they'd mind if I stayed away an extra day. They are now 15 and 19 and don't really need me for day to day stuff. The younger one said, "But it's more FUN when you're here." I came home.
Asking


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## happyjule2009

It definitely depends on how mature your child grows and the responsibilities he has shown. There are laws for each state so follow them first off or you will be charged. If there's no law in your state on this, I think the age of 12-14 is good. The link below may help.

Is Your Child Ready to Be Home Alone? - FamilyEducation.com


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## momof6girls

you have to know your kids and be comfortable with there ability not there age.

each person / child is different and i learned you can not set an age to things like this or others you need to set a level of showing they can do things.


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## Q*bert

In my state their is no law. The generally accepted age for leaving them alone for an hour or two would be "middle school aged".

I started to purposely "briefly" leave my kids alone at age 10-11. That is, long enough to run to the mailbox, or let them beat me home from school by a half hour. I wanted them to learn how to let themselves into the house, not open the door or answer the phone, call my cell to check in etc. They are now 12 and 13 yrs. old and I am able to run to the supermarket without worries. I also don't have to worry about suddenly "giving them freedom" at a later age.

Also, I find it funny that society denies the existence of latchkey kids in today's world. I couldn't tell you one town that offers after school care for 13 yr. olds.


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## nice777guy

Funny how the responses keep trickling in on this post. Thanks for the feedback.

In general, my oldest (10) is really starting to push to get more and more freedom. And I'll admit, my W and I have been very guarded so far.

Right now the big issues are that she wants to be able to ride her bike around the block by herself. This is something I know I was doing around that age - and I'm 99% sure she'd be fine - but there's that nagging 1% chance she could get hit, kidnapped, etc.

She also wants a cell phone. But since she has so little "freedom" right now I really see no need.

And finally, she's wanted to go to an overnight summer camp for the last 2 years. We got our annual brochure (through the YMCA) yesterday in the mail. I must admit it looks really cool, but its hard to imagine letting her go stay with "strangers" for 5 nights.

She is bright and honest, but she can still be a bit careless and unorganized (school papers, cluttered room and can't find things). 

And it gets complicated by the fact that my wife and I are starting month 4 of a 6 month Trial Sep that is going fairly well. Even still, I don't want to make any mistakes right now. If things don't work out and I'm trying to get primary (but shared) custody, I don't need some "incident" hanging over my head.

Any additional thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks.


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## Q*bert

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nice777guy

Q*bert said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you Q*bert - I will take that under consideration!


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## Q*bert

nice777guy said:


> Thank you Q*bert - I will take that under consideration!


Ha! Mobile phone fail on my part!  (first time tying it)

But seriously... I went through separation from my first husband when my girls where 8 and 9. They were not at all independent at that point. Very suburban, sheltered and un-streetwise. It took about six months to adapt to shuttling off to dad's house every other weekend. Now, they pack for themselves and keep track of obligations on dad 's side all on their own. I'm happy to say it has translated over to school. They now take responsibility knowing and completing their homework assignments, and walk to the bus on their own. And they take care of their own rooms and chores. I'm very proud of them for stepping up. 

I guess we're fortunate - the divorce really WAS for the better!


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## Freak On a Leash

nice777guy said:


> In general, my oldest (10) is really starting to push to get more and more freedom. And I'll admit, my W and I have been very guarded so far.
> 
> Right now the big issues are that she wants to be able to ride her bike around the block by herself. This is something I know I was doing around that age - and I'm 99% sure she'd be fine - but there's that nagging 1% chance she could get hit, kidnapped, etc.
> 
> She also wants a cell phone. But since she has so little "freedom" right now I really see no need.
> 
> And finally, she's wanted to go to an overnight summer camp for the last 2 years. We got our annual brochure (through the YMCA) yesterday in the mail. I must admit it looks really cool, but its hard to imagine letting her go stay with "strangers" for 5 nights.
> 
> She is bright and honest, but she can still be a bit careless and unorganized (school papers, cluttered room and can't find things).


I understand about the trial separation situation. That's why it's important that you check up on any laws (if any) and adhere to them. 

She sounds like a normal pre-teen kid. My daughter was VERY independent while my son prefers to stay at home. Even at age 12 my son doesn't tend to go out by himself. But my daugher wanted (and got) permission to ride her bike around the neighborhood by age 10. 

Granted, we live in a VERY nice and safe neighborhood (it's a lot like Mayberry, USA). If you are living in a high traffic or not-so-safe area then obviously things will change. You have to go by your judgement, but I'd think that if things are safe and comfortable for your daughter then she should be able to ride her bike around. You might want to make some restrictions such as no leaving the neighborhood or crossing any busy roads, etc. 

As for the camp: Five days doesn't sound like a lot. If she's a social type, like my daughter, she'll be sleeping over at strangers house soon enough so you'd better get used to this idea. 

It sounds like an excellent opportunity for her to spread her wings without wandering too far from the nest. Some kids (I was one of them) spent the whole summer away at camp at age 10. Of course if you'd grown up in my house you would've wanted to leave as well.  But seriously, age 10 is a bit young for that but five days is an excellent amount of time to start and if she really wants and is up for it I'd say go for it. Plan a vacation and enjoy yourself as well. 

Cell phone might be handy. My daughter didn't get one until about 12. I was very strict about how often she could use it. I've since had to go to the unrestricted minutes plan now that my daughter is 15. 

Remember, parenting is about providing roots and wings for your children. The first is easy, the second is much harder, usually for the parent, but it's the most important.


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## Mom6547

ng: If it were me, my concern would not solely be about the extremes like not burning the house down. If you are talking about an every day 3 hours per day after school, that is 15 hours a week. What will she be DOING with those hours? That's a lot of hours. Homework? Basketball (tennis, skateboarding)... Will she be allowed to play out side? I would be concerned for being kinda stuck in the house for 15 hours a week with no motivating or supervising persona about.

Daycares will have afterschool programs. Places like the YMCA do as well. That would be my first choice as it would include things like sporting activities.

Also you might want to phone the school and ask them what other parents do. I'll bet they know.

Good luck.


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## nice777guy

Thanks VT (and others).

Trial sep is over and we've managed to work things out - at least for now.

Daughter is still pushing for her independence. She DID go to summer camp - had a great time but also admitted to getting homesick.

Trying to give her little opportunities here and there - left her at home for an hour yesterday while we ran some errands. No bloodstains and no sign of fire - seems to have gone ok!


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## Mom6547

Yup opportunities here and there is called "scaffolding". Give her the opportunity to demonstrate her responsibility limited at first then with increasing freedom as she demonstrates the responsibility.


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## 827Aug

We began letting our children stay at home alone at ages 10, 7, & 7. It worked out real well for us. Of course, this is a quiet rural area. Also, my parents live across the road and the children could always roam between the two houses. We even went on a couple of overnight trips without the children when they were 15, 12, & 12. These three never had any problems and actually seemed to enjoy it. A lot depends on the maturity of the children. My three were always "little adults" anyway. Sometimes it can be a big advantage having family close by.


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## turnera

Age 12 is the absolute MINIMUM I'd allow a girl to babysit. And then, only with an adult parent in a house nearby. Being alone with VERY concrete rules at that age is a possibility, but I'd require big time checking in on them.

I'd only leave them really alone at age 14.


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## nice777guy

turnera said:


> Age 12 is the absolute MINIMUM I'd allow a girl to babysit. And then, only with an adult parent in a house nearby. Being alone with VERY concrete rules at that age is a possibility, but I'd require big time checking in on them.
> 
> I'd only leave them really alone at age 14.


I've told my 11 yo daughter that I'm not sure when she'll be allowed to babysit - I just tell her I know she's not ready right now.

She's really fighting for some independence right now. Really fighting. Funny thing is, if she backed off a bit, we'd see it as a sign of maturity and she would get that independence a lot quicker.

She's dying to get a cell phone - but she really has no NEED for one - and of course they aren't free. We still make her ride her bike helmet while many of the neighborhood kids don't wear theirs. But to me, her safety isn't negotiable.


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## Trenton

I'd say 12 is the youngest they can be home alone for 3 hours at a time and this age is a good age for babysitting for 1-2 hours at a time as well. My daughter is 14 and she'll babysit our younger two when we go to dinner. She loves the extra cash.

Things that can help you feel more at ease are babysitting classes. Here the local Red Cross offers these and also has cpr classes for kids.

We live in a small town where my kids can walk/ride bike to school, the ocean, parks, library and downtown all safely. It's the best part of living here. My son who is 10 just got the freedom to go downtown and he lovessss buying tea and smoothies from the shops there. I think this helps raise responsible kids that feel independent and capable.

I'd say 12 for a cell phone as well and a limited access cell phone. My daughter has one and it's a great thing but my son is patiently waiting till he's 12 and driving me insane in the meantime. heh

I think as a parent your intuition is spot on. Some kids mature early or later and I think the parent is the best gauge of this.


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## Trenton

Oh...and my 14 year old still wears a bike helmet and is told clearly if we see her without it on at any point she will be losing the bike. It's the law and we had a 16 year old killed recently when her bike got hit and she would have been saved if she'd had a helmet on. I'm with you on this, safety first.


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## lime

I went home by myself at age 9. We lived in a very safe neighborhood, and I had 2 (kind of intimidating) dogs with me and I was home for about an hour or 45 minutes before my mom got back. I wasn't allowed to answer the door or let anyone in. 

I took a babysitting class with the Red Cross when I was 11, and started babysitting family members for short time periods only when I was 12. What also worked was to be a babysitter's "helper" when I was 10-11 so I could learn what to do and observe...Usually family friends would let me and an older child of another family friend babysit their kids. I LOVED it, I think because I also got to hang out with an older, cooler girl. I babysat by myself for the first time when I was 13. I felt fully ready by that time with all the practice I had, and I think it was a good age for me.

I would suggest giving your daughter some autonomy with the babysitting thing...Let her make a case for herself there; ask her what she should be doing to show that she is responsible. If all she can come up with is "Daa-_aaad_ I'm old enough," then that's not a sign of responsibility. If she can research some babysitting classes, or find a way to get some supervised practice in, that's a sign she might be ready sometime soon  Same thing goes with the cell phone--let her make a case for why it would be a smart decision. Tell her not to whine/beg/nag/etc. but to sit down to have a mature conversation about the pros and cons. If she can't see any cons, then she's not being reasonable so make sure she shows she's fully aware.

My parents had me do this when I was younger, for things I wanted and for how much allowance I would be getting. It encouraged me to make reasonable demands because otherwise they'd say NO WAY and I wasn't allowed to bring it up again without getting in trouble. Also if I whined or kept asking over and over, they'd be increasingly less likely to listen.

Helmets should ALWAYS be worn! No matter what age! I have friends in college who have crashed their bikes, and one actually got hit by a car on a busy road. Kids should always wear helmets; _adults_ should always wear helmets (especially adults who need to set a good example for their kids...and adults who need to stay alive to raise their kids).


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## Freak On a Leash

vthomeschoolmom said:


> ng: If it were me, my concern would not solely be about the extremes like not burning the house down. If you are talking about an every day 3 hours per day after school, that is 15 hours a week. What will she be DOING with those hours? That's a lot of hours. Homework? Basketball (tennis, skateboarding)... Will she be allowed to play out side? I would be concerned for being kinda stuck in the house for 15 hours a week with no motivating or supervising persona about.
> 
> Daycares will have afterschool programs. Places like the YMCA do as well. That would be my first choice as it would include things like sporting activities.
> 
> Also you might want to phone the school and ask them what other parents do. I'll bet they know.
> 
> Good luck.


My Lord, why can't a kid just come home from his/her scheduled day of schooling and just relax for a few hours? Why is this such a PROBLEM these days for parents? Must everything be so scheduled and preset? Don't YOU like to come home from work, kick your shoes off and just veg a bit? :scratchhead: 

A lot of kids don't WANT to have to play sports or games or be supervised after being in school for 8 hours. I know I didn't and my daughter opted out of doing varsity volleyball because of all the demands it made on her time. "I need some time to relax", she said. Sounded reasonable to me!

No wonder today's kids feel so stressed..their parents, teachers and society just won't let them BE kids and relax and do NOTHING once in awhile. It's not a crime to do nothing for a few hours a day!

I remember at 12 coming home from school and LOVING not having my parents there. I'd get a snack, watch some TV or read and take a nap before having to do homework, chores, etc. 

My 13 year old son and I have a deal. We have a "two hour rule". He can't bother me when I get home from work for two hours and I don't bother him. Then we can make demands on each other. Works well and we each get some "downtime" after a tough day at school/work. Works really well.


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## greeneyeddolphin

It really depends on the kids. My two boys are 9 & 7, with ADHD, so I can't honestly say when I will leave them home alone. I need to be able to trust they won't turn the stove/oven on and forget about it, or go off to a friend's house instead of coming home, and I have to wait to see when that trust comes. 

One thing I noticed is you mentioned she's fighting for independence, and that if she backed off, you'd see it as a sign of maturity and she'd get the independence she wants. While I agree with you to a degree, I also have to wonder if she's fighting so hard because she has no independence. I mean, I don't know how you handle her, so I might be totally off base, but if she feels like she's got no independence at all, she's going to fight for it. That doesn't mean you have to let her stay home alone or whatever, but maybe you can find something fairly innocent and harmless with which to give her some freedom. Maybe letting her be in charge of planning dinner 1 or 2 nights a week, or let her pick her own library books, or something...I don't know, because like I said, I don't know what you already do or don't do with her.


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## Freak On a Leash

atruckersgirl said:


> It really depends on the kids. My two boys are 9 & 7, with ADHD, so I can't honestly say when I will leave them home alone. I need to be able to trust they won't turn the stove/oven on and forget about it, or go off to a friend's house instead of coming home, and I have to wait to see when that trust comes.


I wouldn't leave any 9 or 7 year old alone for a period of time, unless I was right outside the house working in the yard or something. 

My 13 year old son has ADHD and he's been staying home alone since he was 12 without a problem. He hasn't burned the house down yet though he did overcook his macaroni and cheese once so we restricted him to microwave use only for awhile when we aren't home.


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## greeneyeddolphin

Freak On a Leash said:


> I wouldn't leave any 9 or 7 year old alone for a period of time, unless I was right outside the house working in the yard or something.
> 
> My 13 year old son has ADHD and he's been staying home alone since he was 12 without a problem. He hasn't burned the house down yet though he did overcook his macaroni and cheese once so we restricted him to microwave use only for awhile when we aren't home.


I didn't mean to imply I would leave them home alone. I gave their ages as a reference so that others would know where I'm at. Meaning most people are saying around age 12, and I just meant that mine are 9 & 7 and right now, I don't see myself leaving them alone even at 12 due to their ADHD. Obviously, I have a few years yet, but I can't say "Oh, when they're X, I'll let them stay home alone", because it really depends on how they grow and change in the next few years. 

Sorry, I should have been more clear.


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## nice777guy

atruckersgirl said:


> One thing I noticed is you mentioned she's fighting for independence, and that if she backed off, you'd see it as a sign of maturity and she'd get the independence she wants. While I agree with you to a degree, I also have to wonder if she's fighting so hard because she has no independence. I mean, I don't know how you handle her, so I might be totally off base, but if she feels like she's got no independence at all, she's going to fight for it. That doesn't mean you have to let her stay home alone or whatever, but maybe you can find something fairly innocent and harmless with which to give her some freedom. Maybe letting her be in charge of planning dinner 1 or 2 nights a week, or let her pick her own library books, or something...I don't know, because like I said, I don't know what you already do or don't do with her.


Right now the BIG thing is that she is wanting to spend "alone time" with her new boyfriend from down the street. Our current rule is that she is not to be out of sight. My wife also has told her that she cannot exclude her 8 year old sister from "playing" with them.

This is really the first boyfriend she's ever had and everything is VERY dramatic right now. When I was that age, I was never "lucky" enough to have a girlfriend live on my street, so any interaction was done at school.

Part of me thinks that having the 8 year old play the role of informer isn't cool. BUT my daugther has described some very intense feelings for this boy - she REALLY wants to hug him and hold hands, etc.

My wife and daughter have been going to therapy together. I'm trying to stay out of it - seems a lot of my daughter's anger is directed at her mother. In therapy, it was agreed/stressed that "alone" time with her boyfriend was not negotiable - it is off the table.


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## Mom6547

nice777guy said:


> Right now the BIG thing is that she is wanting to spend "alone time" with her new boyfriend from down the street. Our current rule is that she is not to be out of sight. My wife also has told her that she cannot exclude her 8 year old sister from "playing" with them.


Your dd is 12 IIRC? I agree that it is appropriate to supervise very young kids with their "boy/girlfriends."

But ... I know people have different parenting goals and values... In MY opinion, an older child is not responsible for a younger child. Requiring her to entertain the younger is a mistake. It has the possibilities to
- inhibit the relationship between the siblings by bringing resentment in
- interfere with both children's independence in the area of friend making.
- interferes with the scaffolding of independence and responsibility of the elder.



> This is really the first boyfriend she's ever had and everything is VERY dramatic right now. When I was that age, I was never "lucky" enough to have a girlfriend live on my street, so any interaction was done at school.
> 
> Part of me thinks that having the 8 year old play the role of informer isn't cool.


Is THAT the goal of requiring the older to play with the younger? That is WAY uncool. The 8yo is not responsible for the behavior of the older. And it is unfair to her. It is also backhanded to the older. 

If the older needs to be supervised, why not require her to hang out in the living room? Nearby where she can be heard. 



> BUT my daugther has described some very intense feelings for this boy - she REALLY wants to hug him and hold hands, etc.


Is there something wrong with hugging and holding hands? 

I would tread carefully here if I were you. If you tighten too tight, she will learn to sneak and hide. If you are too loose, she will feel free to engage in risky behavior. You have to be STRAIGHT UP with her about the risks, your values and your goal for her to grow up to be the healthy, moral, wonderful woman you know she is going to be. Let her know that you are scaffolding her independence to keep her SAFE not to be a big fat PITA.



> My wife and daughter have been going to therapy together. I'm trying to stay out of it - seems a lot of my daughter's anger is directed at her mother. In therapy, it was agreed/stressed that "alone" time with her boyfriend was not negotiable - it is off the table.


Sounds like Mom is a micromanager, honestly. What decisions / choices does DD have about her life? If independence is not given and scaffolded safely, then it will be taken unsafely by lies, sneaking and hiding. At this age, the development of independence is necessary and important. She is trying to learn how to be an adult.

Good luck with this trying time!

S


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## 827Aug

vthomeschoolmom said:


> But ... I know people have different parenting goals and values... In MY opinion, an older child is not responsible for a younger child. Requiring her to entertain the younger is a mistake. It has the possibilities to
> - inhibit the relationship between the siblings by bringing resentment in
> - interfere with both children's independence in the area of friend making.
> - interferes with the scaffolding of independence and responsibility of the elder.
> 
> 
> Is THAT the goal of requiring the older to play with the younger? That is WAY uncool. The 8yo is not responsible for the behavior of the older. And it is unfair to her. It is also backhanded to the older.


:iagree:

And I never put my older child in this position. My mother who is now 87 always conveyed an important lesson about that subject. She was one of the older children in a family with eight children growing up in the south. From a very early age she was always responsible for younger brothers and sisters. It was really sad to hear some of her stories. She never had a childhood. Therefore, she was extremely conscious of the negative side of an older child taking care of a younger one. Fortunately, she was determined for that cycle to stop with her. She succeeded. My brothers were never responsible for me and my son was never responsible for his sisters. Be careful of the temptation!


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## nice777guy

Just to clarify - My 11 year old daughter is not to "exclude" my 8 year old from any activities while playing outside. And my wife HAS asked the 8 year old to report back any suspicious activities. I'm not sure this is fair either - but I also don't feel like arguing that my 11 year old daughter needs any "alone time" with her boyfriend.

One night my daughter was describing some "physical" feelings down below her stomach. Wife says that when she was 11, she would get "crampy" feelings while watching music videos or certain movie stars. So - I'm basically not sure if my 11 year old daughter is starting to have "urges" or just butterflies.

As for her independence, I think we need to loosen up a bit. But with our marriage problems, things like this have been difficult to discuss. Furthermore, when I thought I was going to end up in a custody battle, I became VERY conservative about what she could and couldn't do.

And I understand the advice about not being too strict. So far she's been up front about things - I believe.


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## Mom6547

nice777guy said:


> Just to clarify - My 11 year old daughter is not to "exclude" my 8 year old from any activities while playing outside. And my wife HAS asked the 8 year old to report back any suspicious activities. I'm not sure this is fair either - but I also don't feel like arguing that my 11 year old daughter needs any "alone time" with her boyfriend.


Those two things are completely unrelated, in my opinion. I don't disagree that your 11 year old daughter does not need alone time with her "bf." 

BUT the responsibility to supervise her should be yours, your wife's or whomever the responsible adult on the scene is, not the eight year old. If no responsible adult is on the scene, then she should not be allowed to have him over/be over with him.

I am not sure why your wife thinks the 11 should HAVE to play with her sister. That seems a bad recipe to me.




> One night my daughter was describing some "physical" feelings down below her stomach. Wife says that when she was 11, she would get "crampy" feelings while watching music videos or certain movie stars. So - I'm basically not sure if my 11 year old daughter is starting to have "urges" or just butterflies.


She is growing up. It is urges. Having urges is completely normal. You had them too, I would bet.  How much good, open, truthful sex ed has your dd gotten?



> As for her independence, I think we need to loosen up a bit. But with our marriage problems, things like this have been difficult to discuss.


You reply yo posts, but I have not really seen the nature of your difficulties. I can imagine that marital problems would make these conversations nearly impossible! Very difficult situation for you. Are you in marriage counseling? Would it be a subject to talk about in counseling? How to go about discussing parenting difference between the two of you? Obviously both of you have dd's best interest at heart.



> Furthermore, when I thought I was going to end up in a custody battle, I became VERY conservative about what she could and couldn't do.
> 
> And I understand the advice about not being too strict. So far she's been up front about things - I believe.


Nah it is not about not being too strict. It is about achieving balance. It is just as inadvisable to become too lax. The ideal is to dole out small increases in freedom with the clear understanding that she has to demonstrate responsibility. If the responsibility is not demonstrated, the freedom is removed to be tried again later on....

I don't envy you having marital issues with a 12yo daughter in the mix! Preteen girls are HARD!

Good luck!

S


----------



## turnera

There simply is no reason to allow an 11 year old (or 12 or 13 or 14 or 15 or 16) girl alone with a boy.

As you said, non-negotiable.

My DD20 was not allowed to have boys in her room until she was 17; that was simply the rule. She knew it, she followed it. I plainly explained why - teenagers can sometimes not control urges and, as her parent, it was my job to make sure she didn't become pregnant before graduating high school. Period.

She wasn't allowed to have boys at the house unless a parent was home, until she was 17 (junior). Same reason. And she stuck to it, mainly because I explained it logically and without judgment on HER, but on the normal actions of teenagers.


----------



## turnera

One thing I did was, each year, I added a chore to her list of chores, as a symbol of her growing maturity and capabilities. Started out with picking up clothes, then added, cleaning room, then folding towels, then cleaning kitchen counters, then vacuuming bedroom, then washing her own clothes...the last one I gave her was mowing the back yard. All these things were given to her so that she would grow up to be a capable adult, able to take care of her own home. And sure enough, she's the only girl in the dorm who will clean up!

I sure hope your kids have chores, too.


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## nice777guy

turnera said:


> There simply is no reason to allow an 11 year old (or 12 or 13 or 14 or 15 or 16) girl alone with a boy.
> 
> As you said, non-negotiable.
> 
> My DD20 was not allowed to have boys in her room until she was 17; that was simply the rule. She knew it, she followed it. I plainly explained why - teenagers can sometimes not control urges and, as her parent, it was my job to make sure she didn't become pregnant before graduating high school. Period.
> 
> She wasn't allowed to have boys at the house unless a parent was home, until she was 17 (junior). Same reason. And she stuck to it, mainly because I explained it logically and without judgment on HER, but on the normal actions of teenagers.


Once again - to clarify - he lives down the street. Being "alone" for them right now means sitting on the curb alone - but they usually walk a few houses down before settling on a spot. Or climbing a tree together (with branches in the way).

The marital issues have gotten much better, but we still have a lot of work to do.

And I know I was having urges at that age as well - although my urges were much easier to observe. There's no question about butterflies when you are pitching a tent in your pants.

We have been straightforward with her about sex. I believe she has a good understanding of how things work.


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## Mom6547

nice777guy said:


> Once again - to clarify - he lives down the street. Being "alone" for them right now means sitting on the curb alone - but they usually walk a few houses down before settling on a spot. Or climbing a tree together (with branches in the way).


What is it you think she is going to do in full view of the entire neighborhood? It is hard to understand what your underlying goals/concerns are wrt this issue. 



> The marital issues have gotten much better, but we still have a lot of work to do.
> 
> And I know I was having urges at that age as well - although my urges were much easier to observe. There's no question about butterflies when you are pitching a tent in your pants.
> 
> We have been straightforward with her about sex. I believe she has a good understanding of how things work.


How. What about why? And when?


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## nice777guy

vthomeschoolmom said:


> What is it you think she is going to do in full view of the entire neighborhood? It is hard to understand what your underlying goals/concerns are wrt this issue.
> 
> 
> 
> How. What about why? And when?


The "fear" is that they'll start out a few houses down. THEN they'll slowly sneak behind a bush or a tree. This boy has a younger brother. Our girls used to stick to our yard, or riding bikes in the street. But since they've been hanging out with these boys they've started playing in other neighbors yards, climbing other neighbors trees, etc., etc. Caught the younger kids one day taking some fence posts off of a neighbors fence. The finger pointing lead me to think the younger kid got things started, my youngest followed, and my daughter and her boyfriend were hiding up in a tree - just happy to be left alone.

She's had the full sex talk - a few years ago - which I was glad to let my wife take the lead on. She seems to understand it. And we'll talk about things when they come up - such as inappropriate touching (hence my fear of hugging).

Military school seems like the only easy option at the moment.

So, what do you do when the 11 year old boy knocks at the door? Let her go out? Do you watch her the whole time? Maybe tell them to stay in your yard so you can easily see them through the window? Seriously...


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## Mom6547

nice777guy said:


> The "fear" is that they'll start out a few houses down. THEN they'll slowly sneak behind a bush or a tree.


It sounds like there are compound issues here.

Why do you think she will sneak? I would worry more about the sneaking than whatever it is you think she is going to do behind a bush of all places. 

For some reason, you don't trust your 11 year old daughter in the neighborhood. You think she will sneak. In my opinion, if a child is not responsible enough to be in the neighborhood without sneaking, then she is not responsible enough to be in the neighborhood. But you can't accuse/expect sneak if she is not/has not sneaked. That is failure to trust. Failure to trust leads to un-trustworthiness. Reigning in the freedom if the responsibility is not demonstrated is probably better. 

I find it difficult to imagine that at 11 years old uncontrollable sexual urges are what is driving her desire for this "alone time." The reason for her pushing this issue needs to be found. Some that come to mind are
- she is rebelling against overly strict (and dare I infer more than a little bit of micromanagement?) limits and just happened to pick this issue.
- she is exploring her burgeoning romantic side and sensuality and is not allowed to do safe things like holding hands so has to hide.





> This boy has a younger brother. Our girls used to stick to our yard, or riding bikes in the street. But since they've been hanging out with these boys they've started playing in other neighbors yards, climbing other neighbors trees, etc., etc. Caught the younger kids one day taking some fence posts off of a neighbors fence. The finger pointing lead me to think the younger kid got things started, my youngest followed, and my daughter and her boyfriend were hiding up in a tree - just happy to be left alone.


I am not sure of the relevance of this. That they were playing (yes the vast majority of what they are probably doing at 11 years old is still playing) in a tree and were not interested in stealing fence posts? Why did they have to *hide* in the tree? WERE they hiding? Or were they just playing in a tree?



> She's had the full sex talk - a few years ago - which I was glad to let my wife take the lead on. She seems to understand it. And we'll talk about things when they come up - such as inappropriate touching (hence my fear of hugging).


Hugging is inappropriate? What is inappropriate about it? What is inappropriate about touching? I would bet my last dollar that she is rebelling against your strictness and ... overly worried approach to sexual matters.



> So, what do you do when the 11 year old boy knocks at the door? Let her go out? Do you watch her the whole time?
> Maybe tell them to stay in your yard so you can easily see them through the window? Seriously...


[/quote]

You have a family meeting in which you discuss rules for safety and correct behavior when out in the neighborhood. You solicit her brainstorming ideas. Include her in the process, gain cooperation and investment from her. You discuss the connection between freedom and responsibility. And you brainstorm/discuss how responsibility can be verified. Then so long as she behaves responsibly, then she has the freedom. A slip in responsibility leads to removal of the freedom until try again some later time.

You could even have some OTHER issue of freedom be tried for the development and assessment of responsibility since for some reason the notion of a boy is totally wigging you out. Take the responsibility/freedom connection for a test drive, so to speak. And let her know that is what you are doing.


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## nice777guy

VT - honestly - with me, part of it is a fear of letting go.

The "sneaking" I'm afraid of would be exploring those urges in ANY way - hugging, touching, anything.

They actually say "I love you" when they leave each other - and it makes me cringe.

As for rules, my wife is telling me that alone time with a boy at this age - per their discussion in therapy - is not going to happen.

Will give your advice some thought. It sounds reasonable to me, but I suppose I am dealing with several issues here.

Another thing about the younger daughter - even if she wasn't "instructed" to follow them around, she would do it anyway. And even if she wasn't isntructed to tattle, she'd do it anyway.

I was an only child, so this sibling stuff honestly confuses me a bit. They are truly very different from one another and it causes a lot of conflict. Even without the boy, the oldest wants more alone time, while the 8 year old wants to play and do things together. And the 8 year old does not hesitate to tattle. Sometimes its nice - other times I think I don't need to know everything.


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## Mom6547

nice777guy said:


> VT - honestly - with me, part of it is a fear of letting go.
> 
> The "sneaking" I'm afraid of would be exploring those urges in ANY way - hugging, touching, anything.


So the thing you really need to look at is YOU. You need to do this for the best interest of your daughter, who is, of course, the most important matter at hand. Ask yourself why are you afraid of her natural development. And are you going to get over this fear for HER best interest.

You recognize you are afraid of your daughter growing up. Very sensible thing to be afraid of. But in both your head and your heart you know that you are not helping her grow up by confining her. 




> They actually say "I love you" when they leave each other - and it makes me cringe.


It may worry you, sound retarded and whatever. But they are learning. Trying it on for size. 



> As for rules, my wife is telling me that alone time with a boy at this age - per their discussion in therapy - is not going to happen.


Who is in therapy? Your wife and daughter? Why is there parenting/family therapy going on without you in it?



> Will give your advice some thought. It sounds reasonable to me, but I suppose I am dealing with several issues here.
> 
> Another thing about the younger daughter - even if she wasn't "instructed" to follow them around, she would do it anyway. And even if she wasn't isntructed to tattle, she'd do it anyway.


Well I guess I see things really differently than you. I will bet a dollar that in school, they are taught NOT to tattle. Not only do you not provide lessons that tattling is wrong, your wife encourages it.

What is the message to your OLDER daughter? She is not responsible for her actions. Someone else is minding her. So what happens when someone is NOT minding her. She can do as she pleases since she is not responsible for her actions. 

What is the message to the younger? I can get attention by tattling on my big sister. I have a powerful stick to use.

Not good messages!




> I was an only child, so this sibling stuff honestly confuses me a bit. They are truly very different from one another and it causes a lot of conflict. Even without the boy, the oldest wants more alone time, while the 8 year old wants to play and do things together.


Well I guess to me, a person has a right to the things a person has a right to. The 8yo does not have the right to be entertained by someone else. The 8yo does not have the right to have 11yos wishes dismissed to get her playmate.




> And the 8 year old does not hesitate to tattle. Sometimes its nice - other times I think I don't need to know everything.


If it were me, I would put a halt to the tattling. It won't serve her in the long run!


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## nice777guy

Just to clarify one thing:

Wife and I were separated for a year - kids stayed at home with me, although the wife was with them after school for several hours, or all day in the summers while I was at work.

My oldest daughter directs a lot of anger towards her mother. I tend to think some of it might be "abondonment" issues - but I've been told to let the two of them work through it. That some of it is just typical mother/daughter stuff. That's why "they" are in therapy together without me. 

Wife and I are also in counseling with a different therapist.


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## Mom6547

nice777guy said:


> Just to clarify one thing:
> 
> Wife and I were separated for a year - kids stayed at home with me, although the wife was with them after school for several hours, or all day in the summers while I was at work.
> 
> My oldest daughter directs a lot of anger towards her mother. I tend to think some of it might be "abondonment" issues - but I've been told to let the two of them work through it. That some of it is just typical mother/daughter stuff. That's why "they" are in therapy together without me.


Who told you to let the two of them work it out? There is nothing typical mother daughter about it. Many mothers and daughters manage to get along just fine.

But if they are making discipline decisions without you, it is sending you out of the game. Your wife has the right to just make up a rule for your dd and you are expected to just roll with it? How does that go down?



> Wife and I are also in counseling with a different therapist.


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## nice777guy

VT - let me think about AND absorb what you are saying a bit.

Also, can we back up and simplify things again.

What kind of freedom or restrictions should an 11 year old girl have when it comes to hanging out with her 11 year old "boy friend"? Most of their time is spent outside...


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## Mom6547

nice777guy said:


> VT - let me think about AND absorb what you are saying a bit.
> 
> Also, can we back up and simplify things again.


Ha! This is parenting. The answer is no. It just isn't simple. 

/


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## lime

Hahaha wow…These kinds of parental conversations and rules are _exactly_ why kids avoid telling their parents any of their personal business from middle school through high school. I’m not saying that your rules aren’t valid, but I am saying that you need to be careful how strict you are because if you keep this up, your daughter might start lying/sneaking off/hiding information from you. I was lucky enough that my parents trusted me and didn’t impose random rules based on their own worries/opinions without fully knowing the situation.

Really, you’re not letting your daughter be alone with her boyfriend? I find that a little extreme…Maybe it’s just because I’m younger, but I think it’s totally acceptable for them to be alone together in certain situations…Going on a walk outside together, for example, or hanging out in the living room together with parents in the house but not in range to hear private conversations. They’re only 11, they’re not going to be doing anything much more than kissing or at the very worst making out--and it’s perfectly ok for them to be kissing! Your daughter is smart enough and sensible enough not to do anything that she isn’t comfortable with (right? I’m sure you taught her those things! ) In her bedroom with a locked door is an obvious no in my opinion…But they will probably want some time to actually get to know each other and talk, and that’s going to be tough with an 8-year-old tagging along everywhere or with nosy parents eavesdropping all the time. Could you take them to a public place together? Like the mall or Starbucks? That way you won’t have to worry about them getting physical, but they could also have more mature experiences like getting lunch together or going on a coffee date (or a hot chocolate date if they don’t drink coffee). 

I’m just offering my own perspective here as a child who had a very different upbringing than your daughter. I’m only 21 now so my experience is probably closer to your daughters’ than to yours. I’m not saying that the way I was raised is the “right” way; I just wanted to give you some ideas from a totally different viewpoint and tell you some things that worked for me and my family.

My parents were incredibly laissez-faire with me and with social rules, like who I could hang out with and when/where, when/who I could date, curfews, supervision, etc. They basically just let me do whatever I wanted as long as I didn’t get into huge trouble. And that personal responsibility for myself scared some SERIOUS sense into me…Basically, I was responsible for myself 100% and if I did something stupid, my parents weren’t going to be there to pick up the pieces or even to say “I told you so.” I never asked when I would be “allowed” to have a boy in my bedroom or when I would be “allowed” to stay out past midnight…I never brought boys back home, because I never wanted my parents to interfere with my personal life, ask questions, or feel worried that I would be doing something inappropriate in our house. And one night I just said that I was going to a friend’s house and that I’d be back at 1 in the morning when her older brother drove me home--my dad waited up, I got home at 12:45, and from then on, they just sort of trusted me and didn’t press me for details. I made my own choices and took responsibility for them.

I had my first true experience with alcohol when I was 14, before I had even started high school. Maybe that wouldn’t have happened if my parents had set some rules about who I could hang out with and who was supervising, etc. But as a result, I learned to get a feel for my tolerance levels, to always always always drink responsibly, and to look out for my friends. I would never have learned those things and truly taken them seriously if I had just sat there and listened to my parents lecture me. As a result, when I got to college, I was one of the most responsible kids there--ironic, since I’d been such a “delinquent” by parental standards when I was younger. The absolute WORST kids in college--you know, the crying girl falling in the bushes after being taken advantage of by some frat guy, or the guy passed out in his own vomit on the bathroom floor--were the ones whose parents had had the most “rules” for being “safe.” Again, this is just my own personal experience and what worked for me--I totally understand that every child is different and every parent is different.


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## lime

Oh...One more thing from a child's perspective...

The thing that ticked me off the absolute MOST when I was younger, was when adults would say "well you're young so we know better than you." Age does not equal intelligence or even common sense in all cases. And it also sounds like you're "hoarding" your wisdom from your kids so that you can use it to browbeat them into following the rules, instead of sharing with them useful things you've learned. (At least this is how it frequently looks from the perspective of a teenager). 

Believe it or not, just like your kids must earn your respect in order to be granted more independence, YOU have to earn your KIDS' respect in order for them to really listen to you--you can't just demand it and expect them to comply. I'm not accusing anyone of this, but I'm just throwing it out there in the hopes that it will help some parents get inside their moody, hormonal kids' minds


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## Mom6547

lime said:


> Oh...One more thing from a child's perspective...
> 
> The thing that ticked me off the absolute MOST when I was younger, was when adults would say "well you're young so we know better than you." Age does not equal intelligence or even common sense in all cases.


But it DOES tend to lend one more experience from which to learn. Tick my children off it might, but I maintain that I DO know better than they.


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## lime

vthomeschoolmom said:


> But it DOES tend to lend one more experience from which to learn. Tick my children off it might, but I maintain that I DO know better than they.


Yes, of course you have more experience and knowledge than your kids. I was just cautioning against how parents often phrase things. My point was that sharing experience and knowledge will usually help kids learn more than just saying "I know best. Don't question me." They won't always view that as a reason to do what you say. Why and _how_ do you know best? How did _you_ learn what you're telling them? They could be angry and spiteful if you don't explain those things instead of actually trusting your judgment--and teens are always looking for ways to question and rebel against authority figures  I get that you shouldn't "have" to explain everything, but from a pragmatic standpoint, it's usually more effective and better for a parent/child relationship (at least it was in my case).


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## nice777guy

For the most part, I agree.

Will be difficult to discuss with my wife given that my MIL thinks things are already out of control and the "family" therapist has said alone time with this kid is a "no go." Hard to argue FOR alone time with a boy - especially when the idea makes me nervous.

My daughter has anger issues, but she's really never given us a reason to not trust her.

Now, she DID tell me one night that she feels like she would like to have sex with her boyfriend - but later said she's just confused and thinks those urges are butterflies. Does that make any difference or change any opinions?

I'd give a million dollars right now to be back at 2am bottles and constant diaper changes.


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## lime

nice777guy said:


> For the most part, I agree.
> 
> Will be difficult to discuss with my wife given that my MIL thinks things are already out of control and the "family" therapist has said alone time with this kid is a "no go." Hard to argue FOR alone time with a boy - especially when the idea makes me nervous.
> 
> My daughter has anger issues, but she's really never given us a reason to not trust her.
> 
> Now, she DID tell me one night that she feels like she would like to have sex with her boyfriend - but later said she's just confused and thinks those urges are butterflies. Does that make any difference or change any opinions?
> 
> I'd give a million dollars right now to be back at 2am bottles and constant diaper changes.


Kids that age have active imaginations and can sometimes have trouble differentiating crush feelings. I doubt your daughter actually would have sex at this young of an age. She could very well be hoping that they'll stay together for years and years until they're ready to have sex...Or she could just be "thinking out loud" about her feelings. I wouldn't worry too much about it, IF you've talked to her fully about sex and all that it encompasses. This might make you more worried in the upcoming years, but preteens/teens usually rely on social trends in their age group to figure out physically how far they will go...This means, her friends at 11 probably haven't started kissing lots of boys yet, so sex is way out of the question. At 14 or 15, maybe a few of them will start having sex or getting to 2nd or 3rd base, at which point she's going to feel more pressure to conform to these standards than she does now. The trick is making sure she has enough information to make her own personal choices and be happy with them; you don't want to be telling her what she _should_ feel, but what she _could_ feel with each potential choice she makes. It seems like you're already being open with her about sex, which is great! It's important for her to feel comfortable opening up to you without being judged, and you seem to be handling those conversations well even if they are a little shocking.

That must be tough if the rest of the adults in the family are against her being alone with her boyfriend. Hm. I still like the idea of letting her be "alone" in a public place. They're not going to be kissing or doing anything inappropriate if they're out at a restaurant in full view of adult strangers (or at risk of running into their friends). I think this would be a good selling point to your wife/MIL because all of you want to communicate to your daughter that relationships aren't just about sex and butterflies, but real conversation and shared values. If you're forcing them into situations where they're hiding out kissing for a few seconds here and there, you're basically teaching them that relationships are about getting physical in the few chances you have when parents aren't there to scold you. This is also a maturity test; she should be happy to spend time with him in these kinds of settings, because that's what a lot of grown-ups do when they're in a relationship. Or, she might find that conversation isn't all that great because all he talks about are video games...and that she might not have that much in common with this boy afterall...Then no more relationship worries for you guys lol!


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## 827Aug

I realize you are in a tough spot here. Marital problems and a pre-teen daughter definitely don't go well together. I've got two 17 year old daughters, so I've got some experience in this area. Eleven years old is way too young for your daughter to have a boyfriend. This relationship already sounds way too mushy, so there's no way she needs to be at home alone.

turnera's guidelines were the route I took with my daughters. Their social time was spent with groups of kids (mixed sexes) until age 14. At age 14 they could have limited interactions with boys--like walks in the parks or visits with parental supervision. No dating was allowed until age 16 and there were restrictions. They weren't allowed "alone time" with a boy until they were 17.

I honestly think you and your wife need to agree to some boundaries and then implement them. Your daughter needs to find other things to occupy herself with.


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## nice777guy

turnera said:


> There simply is no reason to allow an 11 year old (or 12 or 13 or 14 or 15 or 16) girl alone with a boy.
> 
> As you said, non-negotiable.
> 
> My DD20 was not allowed to have boys in her room until she was 17; that was simply the rule. She knew it, she followed it. I plainly explained why - teenagers can sometimes not control urges and, as her parent, it was my job to make sure she didn't become pregnant before graduating high school. Period.


Quoting for two reasons.

Again, to clarify that "alone time" isn't in a room behind closed doors. What we had originally said was that they should never be 'out of site' when outside. So, they could be in the street riding bikes, or in our front yard, or even in our next door neighbor's front yard - which is a large, open field.

Also quoting because I foolishly thought there was a consensus forming, until 827Aug's post reminded me otherwise.


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## Mom6547

827Aug said:


> I realize you are in a tough spot here. Marital problems and a pre-teen daughter definitely don't go well together. I've got two 17 year old daughters, so I've got some experience in this area. Eleven years old is way too young for your daughter to have a boyfriend. This relationship already sounds way too mushy, so there's no way she needs to be at home alone.


I agree that 11 is too young for this romantic type relationship. <y son is 10. He plays with Nintendo DS and pokemon as it seems to me it should be. BUT if my reading between the lines is correct, they are already enmeshed in a control/freedom battle. If you compare the damage of some hand holding and hugging in a make-believe house play to a hammer "no you can't have a boyfriend" in the middle of a control battle, the former looks the less problematic to me.

If it were me, instead of looking at what precise actions they should *allow* at this age with a boy, I would be taking a look at the Big Picture. Why is my 11yo focused on boyfriend/romance/kissy face? What influence(s) are being brought to bear to cause this? What is the best way to mitigate this influence and redirect attention to different, more appropriate past times for an 11yo.

I might even ask myself that since she wants more freedom, in general, can I use limited freedom in some other form to distract her from this boyfriend business. Offer her walkie talkies in the neighborhood with her girlfriends or something else that she is itching for to demonstrate responsibility.



> turnera's guidelines were the route I took with my daughters. Their social time was spent with groups of kids (mixed sexes) until age 14. At age 14 they could have limited interactions with boys--like walks in the parks or visits with parental supervision. No dating was allowed until age 16 and there were restrictions. They weren't allowed "alone time" with a boy until they were 17.


Except what he is calling alone time isn't really. It is playing not in the yard in the neighborhood.

Tough situation to be sure.


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## turnera

Frankly, 11 years old is too young to be alone anywhere, even by themselves! Not to mention boyfriends. Just tell her that she's welcome to have a boyfriend as long as she abides by your rules: always in sight or hearing of a parent, until 14. It'll get old real fast.

nice, have I recommended this website yet? 
Daughters.com
It's an amazing website that really helped me get DD20 through her 10-18 years. It's written by a father, so it has a lot of father-based issues. Great stuff to read together with her, and then talk about it as it relates to HER life.


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## Mom6547

nice777guy said:


> For the most part, I agree.
> 
> Will be difficult to discuss with my wife given that my MIL thinks things are already out of control and the "family" therapist has said alone time with this kid is a "no go." Hard to argue FOR alone time with a boy - especially when the idea makes me nervous.
> 
> My daughter has anger issues, but she's really never given us a reason to not trust her.
> 
> Now, she DID tell me one night that she feels like she would like to have sex with her boyfriend - but later said she's just confused and thinks those urges are butterflies. Does that make any difference or change any opinions?


I AM concerned about sexual confusion at the age of 11. Is this something that should be brought up with the "family" therapist? Seems to me that there are bigger fish to try in this family. Seems to me you should be at some of these sessions or have new sessions created for some of these issues.



> I'd give a million dollars right now to be back at 2am bottles and constant diaper changes.


Amen, brother.


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## Mom6547

turnera said:


> Frankly, 11 years old is too young to be alone anywhere, even by themselves!


I disagree with this. Age is unimportant. Demonstration of responsibility is important. My 10yo is allowed to walk to the library by himself. He is allowed to do this because he has proven time and again that he can be responsible to walk straight there and back, that he can handle the problems that might occur along that way... 

Linking freedom and responsibility at this age (rather than freedom kind of arbitrarily by age) is a great building block for teenage-hood and beyond. No 16 does not give you the right to drive my car. You want to drive the family car? Demonstrate you can do it with responsibility. You can return the car with gas in it. You can use good judgment and not drive with bad influence kids... You want to buy a car? Get a job....

I think we do a disservice to kids when we make rules based on the arbitrary age demarcation.


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## 827Aug

I understand what you are saying about your daughter's "alone time". Perhaps I need to rephrase.....I would be more concerned with her "exclusive relationship" at this point. An 11 year old girl needs to be hanging out with other girls or a mix of boys and girls. She is way too young to be in an exclusive relationship and all the emotions which go with that.



lime said:


> They’re only 11, they’re not going to be doing anything much more than kissing or at the very worst making out--and it’s perfectly ok for them to be kissing!


You must be kidding! That's part of the problem with adolescents now; they are growing up too fast. At age 11, they should still be enjoying their carefree childhood. They are not emotionally ready to be adults. It's no wonder there are so many mental health issues among this age group. 



nice777guy said:


> So, what do you do when the 11 year old boy knocks at the door? Let her go out? Do you watch her the whole time? Maybe tell them to stay in your yard so you can easily see them through the window? Seriously...


Those are some good questions. How do this boy's parents feel about the little romance? Perhaps as parents you could work together to find a solution. I'm blessed in the fact that my nearest neighbor lives 1/4 mile away and no other teenagers are within two miles of my house. Obviously it was much easier for me to control access where my daughters were concerned. Now that they have drivers' licenses "access" can now be challenging.

Does your daughter have other interests/hobbies? I just think it would be better to redirect her "passion" at this age. I know when my daughters were 11 to 14 years old, they had other interest they were passionate about. They began cooking, played video games, went to concerts--and one daughter also showed horses along with me.


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## Mom6547

827Aug said:


> Those are some good questions. How do this boy's parents feel about the little romance? Perhaps as parents you could work together to find a solution.


I second this excellent thought.


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## 827Aug

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Age is unimportant. Demonstration of responsibility is important.


I agree and think we lose sight of this. As I stated before, my children could stay alone at age 7. My mother began letting me stay at the house alone when I was 6. It worked out great for us. It depends on the individual's maturity and level of responsibility.


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## lime

I'm actually really surprised to hear from parents that they had so many rules about who their kids could date/hang out with through high school. I always assumed these rules were the exception rather than the norm, I guess because I was raised so differently. I did have a few friends with strict parents who had more extreme rules than the ones posted, and they basically just got really good at sneaking around and lying to their parents. I honestly don't think I have a single friend who didn't sneak off or break the rules at least a few times without getting caught and without any repercussions. 

I don't think I agree that 11 is too young for a boyfriend. I really think it depends on the age and maturity levels of the kids involved...Some 11-year-olds are mature enough to handle a relationship and a subsequent breakup; others are glued to a video game or to Hannah Montanna on the Disney channel and aren't even thinking about the opposite gender. Also, it depends on what their expectations are for the relationship; if they're not mature enough to be cautious with their sexuality, then I would agree that it's too young. But in my experience teaching and working with kids (ages 10-12) and in my experience _being_ a kid at that age, those kinds of relationships are much more innocent _physically_ than adults think. Emotionally, they can be a real ***** though. I did witness a 12-year-old girl "steal" her friend's boyfriend before and it was just a whirlwind of drama! 

I am definitely one of the more liberal posters on this particular thread, I think in part because I don't have kids of my own and in part because I have a stronger connection to my child self than others who are older. I have very clear memories of the thoughts and emotions I had at that age, and of that strong pull of desire for FREEDOM. Also, I've been a counselor for kids your daughter's age and have worked with tons of girls in that age group, so I've seen a lot of what sorts of drama goes on and how it all plays out. The girls would come to me with their problems because they trusted me and because I was close enough in age to them not to be viewed as their parents. I can't tell you the number of times I've heard, "_Please_ don't ever tell my parents this," or "My mom would _cry_ if she knew this had happened." It's sad that these kids already feel that they can't trust their parents--even when they're only 11! It also shows how little their parents understood them and their feelings. 

I think it's really up to you what rules you think are best. But I would strongly encourage you to explain _why_ you picked those rules and to keep yourself from placing too much judgment on your daughter. You still want her to trust you and talk to you, even if she's not allowed to do something.


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## turnera

IDK, I saw plenty of 11 and 12 year olds making out at my daughter's junior high, and I'm talking full-on body contact, hickies, and tongues.

fwiw, my DD20 now says I'm her best friend, and I did have those rules. I think the difference is that I explained my logic behind the rules, and showed her potential consequences if I didn't have them, so it became logical to her that I was enacting rules to give her a reason to say 'no, I can't take that drink, mom would kill me' or 'no, you can't come over til my mom's home from work.' I see how you having to protect yourself helped you mature, but I also feel that kids that age shouldn't have to protect themselves. My mom was the same as yours - oh, I know you'll make the right decisions, I trust you. And I hated her for it. I NEEDED that backup, but everyone knew my mom would let us do whatever we wanted, so I, too, had to stand up and say no on my own. It's a big reason I have so much trouble now, fear of rejection.

I just don't think kids should have to weather those things alone, until they are ready. And believe me, they'll let you know when they are ready.

By all means, though...NO judgment! No matter what she does or says.


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## Mom6547

lime said:


> I am definitely one of the more liberal posters on this particular thread, I think in part because I don't have kids of my own and in part because I have a stronger connection to my child self than others who are older. I have very clear memories of the thoughts and emotions I had at that age, and of that strong pull of desire for FREEDOM.


I remember that desire very well. It is that very desire, untempered by experience, that makes a parent need to monitor how well freedom is being used with responsibility.

The issue is not one of being laissez-faire/ permissive vs strict. That way lies opportunities for on the one hand freedom not tempered by responsibility and on he other rebellion.

I am not a huge fan of rules based discipline. It is a means of imposing ones will on another. That is fundamentally uncool. But there are limits that must be set (best if they can be mutually agreed upon up front) and consequences when the limits are not met. This is how we learn. Balance is the key.


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## Mom6547

turnera said:


> IDK, I saw plenty of 11 and 12 year olds making out at my daughter's junior high, and I'm talking full-on body contact, hickies, and tongues.


The fact that "everyone" is doing it does not mean I think it is in the best interest of my child! (I am guessing you agree.)



> fwiw, my DD20 now says I'm her best friend, and I did have those rules. I think the difference is that I explained my logic behind the rules, and showed her potential consequences if I didn't have them, so it became logical to her that I was enacting rules to give her a reason to say 'no, I can't take that drink, mom would kill me' or 'no, you can't come over til my mom's home from work.' I see how you having to protect yourself helped you mature, but I also feel that kids that age shouldn't have to protect themselves. My mom was the same as yours - oh, I know you'll make the right decisions, I trust you. And I hated her for it.


Amen to that. How can you expect me, a SIXTEEN year old to KNOW what the right decision is? Who is helping me learn from all these inputs? Caput. No one.



> I just don't think kids should have to weather those things alone, until they are ready. And believe me, they'll let you know when they are ready.
> 
> By all means, though...NO judgment! No matter what she does or says.


Amen.


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## turnera

vthomeschoolmom said:


> The fact that "everyone" is doing it does not mean I think it is in the best interest of my child! (I am guessing you agree.)


 Precisely why I would not allow 11 year olds alone together. Most of the people DD20 knew were sexually active before they got to high school. 

And later regretted it.


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## lime

turnera said:


> Precisely why I would not allow 11 year olds alone together. Most of the people DD20 knew were sexually active before they got to high school.
> 
> And later regretted it.


Wow it seems like the kids your daughter knew at school were very different than the kids I knew. I can see why you had more rules with her when the peer influences she dealt with were so much worse. 

Your posts reinforce for me the importance of parenting based on the individual kid and the individual situation. Those kinds of rules would have been tough for me to handle, but all the freedom I had would have probably been really hard for your daughter to handle too. It's really interesting to see how others are handling their parenting, and it's cool that having rules and structure allowed you to be closer to your daughter. It seems like you made the right choices for her and for the relationship between you two.

I'll have to keep that in mind for when I have kids! I'll have to wait and see what their personalities are like and what kind of structure they need, as well as what their environment, friends, school, etc. will be like.


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## nice777guy

I googled "tweens and dating" - got a lot of results regarding a disturbing study from a few years ago showing that "tweens" were much more sexually involved than their parents would believe.

I think trying to encourage her to spread her wings in other ways might be the best approach.


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## 827Aug

nice777guy said:


> I think trying to encourage her to spread her wings in other ways might be the best approach.


That would be my solution as well. Let her get passionate about a hobby! I started showing horses when I was 12. I actually thought boys were boring compared to the horses. That made my parents happy. lol

Good luck!


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## turnera

nice777guy said:


> I googled "tweens and dating" - got a lot of results regarding a disturbing study from a few years ago showing that "tweens" were much more sexually involved than their parents would believe.
> 
> I think trying to encourage her to spread her wings in other ways might be the best approach.


 So true. I remember a study where, when say, 85% of parents thought their kids were virgins, only 45% of the kids said they were. And when 5% of parents thought their kids had done 'it' in the parents bedroom, something like 55% of the kids said they had. TOTALLY trusting way too much and not wanting to face the truth.

nice, does she do sports? They say that sports is the #1 way to get girls to stop obsessing about boys - getting involved in a team sport and getting their self-confidence from that group instead of from a guy, which is a huge pitfall all in its own.


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## nice777guy

turnera said:


> So true. I remember a study where, when say, 85% of parents thought their kids were virgins, only 45% of the kids said they were. And when 5% of parents thought their kids had done 'it' in the parents bedroom, something like 55% of the kids said they had. TOTALLY trusting way too much and not wanting to face the truth.
> 
> nice, does she do sports? They say that sports is the #1 way to get girls to stop obsessing about boys - getting involved in a team sport and getting their self-confidence from that group instead of from a guy, which is a huge pitfall all in its own.


Both of my daughters and I are taking some martial arts classes at the YMCA 2 nights a week. We just earned our yellow belts in Judo. Oldest D says she loves it. My oldest just signed up for intramural basketball right after school 2 days a week. And both girls are doing girl scouts - usually just 2-3 activities/nights per month.

She was also in choir and on the spelling team, and she attended one week of summer camp this year.

Part of the problem may be that my daughter is not very social. She doesn't have any friends in the neighborhood. Her best friend is a 5 minute car ride away, but they only get together once a month outside of school. 

BUT at least she gets involved in activities. Everything she's done, or is doing, is something that she's brought up to us.

I also think she was feeling that "no boys like me" pressure. I know some of the kids at school are "going out" or whatever - and she's talked before about wanting a boyfriend and how she thinks boys don't like her.

I DO remember how intense those feelings were at that age. But I never had the opportunity to hang out - alone - with a girl that I was crushing on.

The boys' father actually made him break up with her about a week ago. WE had told our girls that they couldn't play with the younger brother because he hit one of them, likes to pee in people's yards, and has a foul mouth. The "breakup" was because they were excluding the younger brother.

The boys live with their father and grandmother and are usually gone to their mother's house over the weekends. We had considered talking to the father, but I just feel like "I'm" being a tattle tale.

He hadn't been around for a week - and our daughter was acting like her heart was broken - talking a LOT about how to get him back. Not depressed - but anxious - almost obsessed. 

Then - when oldest D was gone on Saturday - both boys came knocking on Saturday to see if they could come out and play in the snow.


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## turnera

Here's what I did with my DD20 when she was her age. I started talking about dating. I talked about what it was like to date at 12, at 14, at 16, at 18, at 20. And how each one differed. I told her that, despite what girls were brought up to believe, their public school sweethearts were rarely the ones they would end up for life. I told her that dating in junior high and high school was for 'trying on' boys to see what kinds of boys they were a good match for. It was for having fun. It was for not getting serious and most CERTAINLY not for having sex just because some guy pressures you to. I told her that she would still be popular even if she said no to boys; and she was. When she started dating a guy, she'd tell him upfront, I don't have sex; if you don't like that, let's not bother. I talked a lot about what you can and can't do with a teenage boy, and how he would treat her if she DID say yes. I told her that she can always come to me and tell me the truth and I will NEVER judge her; I may not like what she did, but I'd never stop loving her.

Basically, I told her - out loud - that you can say NO to a boy and your world won't end.


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## nice777guy

Thinking more about this last night.

I don't like the idea that she is calling him her boyfriend and saying that they are dating. I think I need to better understand from her what she thinks "dating" means.

She is rebellious - but she is also trustworthy. I can't think of an example of a significant lie or significant broken promise on her part. Given her usual behavior, if we tell her not to hold hands with him or hug him, she won't lie to us about it, but she might yell and rant about how unfair we are being.


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## turnera

I would sit down and tell her what an appropriate 'dating' scenario looks like at age 11. What it looks like at 13. At 15. At 17.

How each one, because of differing levels of maturity and knowledge and experience, will allow her increasing levels of what she's allowed to do.

Do it logically. It's VERY hard for them to argue logic. That's why I always used it. 

I also always told her, if she wants something else other than what I am allowing as her parent, I ENCOURAGE her to tell me what she wants, why she thinks she should have it, and I welcome a healthy debate about it. I told her that if she could convince me she should have it, I would most certainly allow it.

That way, she DOES have freedom, if she can justify it. Or earn it.


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## 827Aug

turnera said:


> I would sit down and tell her what an appropriate 'dating' scenario looks like at age 11. What it looks like at 13. At 15. At 17.


This is how we approached the dating/boys subject. At around age 12 the girls were told what the "schedule" or "timetable" would be. I seem to remember the policy being questioned when one of them was around 15. Even then the policy remained. She nicely explained to the perspective date that she couldn't date until she was 16. That worked out well. I've since learned the boy's parents had a similar policy. She and the boy continued to communicate and go to group activities with other friends. She and this boy have been dating since she turned 16.


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## nice777guy

A big part of what is complicating this for me is that these boys live about 5 houses down the street.

Do I argue with her about them "going out" if she agrees to stay in view and not hold hands or hug?


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## Mom6547

I guess, ng, the thing that I cannot understand is what your guiding principles are. If you took the advice of the posters who say 11 is too young to date, which is not bad advice, how to you implement that with your daughter. It seems to me you want to control her *behavior* (hand holding, hugging) and what she can and cannot DO. It seems to me you would be better served looking at what lessons you want her to take away.

If you approach it as a conversation with her about your thoughts on what constitutes a dating relationship, and the time line as indicated by the others, then all you really need to do is converse with her. The what to actually "allow" becomes a non-issue since you said she is a trustworthy person.

Does that make any sense?


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## lime

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I guess, ng, the thing that I cannot understand is what your guiding principles are. If you took the advice of the posters who say 11 is too young to date, which is not bad advice, how to you implement that with your daughter. It seems to me you want to control her *behavior* (hand holding, hugging) and what she can and cannot DO. It seems to me you would be better served looking at what lessons you want her to take away.
> 
> If you approach it as a conversation with her about your thoughts on what constitutes a dating relationship, and the time line as indicated by the others, then all you really need to do is converse with her. The what to actually "allow" becomes a non-issue since you said she is a trustworthy person.
> 
> Does that make any sense?


I agree with this approach! 

She will probably understand better _why_ you don't want her to be hugging, holding hands, etc. if you have a dialogue about it, rather than simply telling her no. It will give you a better idea if she's prepared to handle future relationships responsibly or not--if she seems mature and self aware during the conversation, it will also make you more comfortable and help you trust her more than if you never let her voice her thoughts. 

Out of curiosity ng, why don't you want to allow her to hold hands? Why do you think it's inappropriate, and what are you most worried about? I guess I don't understand the "11 is too young" argument..._Why_ is 11 too young? I'm sure your daughter is probably wanting to ask you the same question lol. And, like me, she probably won't buy the "Because I said so!" answer  

I would strongly encourage you to spend some time thinking hard about the "why" about this situation. I know that you have her best interest at heart, but I think it's also really easy for parents to just default to imposing rules to make themselves feel better. If you don't want her holding hands because it makes _you_ uncomfortable and enables you to cling to your mental image of her as a baby, then that rule is of no benefit whatsoever to your daughter. Make sure these rules are there for _her_, to help her grow as a person and learn maturity, and to keep her feelings valued and safe. Then when you explain them to her, she'll understand that you're protecting her and helping her learn because you care about her. I think it's important to involve her in the rule setting--what does she think is appropriate? What would she feel comfortable with or not comfortable with? She might "want" to kiss him, but she might not actually feel comfortable with that, so you can explain to her the importance of trust and comfort in a relationship. I think it would really help to talk with her about these things because it gives you an opportunity to teach her judgment skills and more self awareness...Arbitrary rules mean that you'll miss out on these chances.


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## 827Aug

nice777guy said:


> A big part of what is complicating this for me is that these boys live about 5 houses down the street.
> 
> Do I argue with her about them "going out" if she agrees to stay in view and not hold hands or hug?


I'm so glad I have no neighbors nearby. This city/suburban etiquette would drive me nuts! lol Therefore, I'm not sure how you should approach this aspect of the problem. However, part of your problem is that no boundaries were in place *before* the current problem arose. As entitlements go it's hard to reverse something once a specific practice has been allowed. You're going to have to use some diplomacy there.


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## turnera

I agree that you need to have some indepth conversations about this.


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## nice777guy

lime said:


> Out of curiosity ng, why don't you want to allow her to hold hands? Why do you think it's inappropriate, and what are you most worried about? I guess I don't understand the "11 is too young" argument..._Why_ is 11 too young? I'm sure your daughter is probably wanting to ask you the same question lol. And, like me, she probably won't buy the "Because I said so!" answer


I actually don't have an issue with her holding his hand - my wife, the therapist she and my daughter are seeing, and my MIL (whom I respect greatly) are the ones who think this is too much.

Hugging just gets you too close - its too physical.

So she and this boy are now back to being "friends" - although daughter says she's going to win him back. I asked her what she saw as the differences between friendship and going out were. She said that he wouldn't be writing her love notes and would stop saying "I love you". 

Then she said that he wouldn't listen to her as much or be as supportive - which I told her a good friend would do.



> However, part of your problem is that no boundaries were in place before the current problem arose. As entitlements go it's hard to reverse something once a specific practice has been allowed. You're going to have to use some diplomacy there.


Yeah - this kind of blindsided us. I think these boys just moved in when the school year started.


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