# Is there something wrong with me for wanting to have an affair?



## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

The question for me is in the title. I have been married for 25 years and the relationship has gone from strained to miserable to hellish. We haven't had sex for years, she doesn't sleep in the bed with me, and she is a total cold fish in terms of affection. She is also extremely verbal abusive toward me, especially in front of the kids. In short, I am sick and tired of her - in fact this whole thing is turning into, if not already turned into, hatred. Most of the time she acts like she can't stand to be in my presence, and the feeling is definitely mutual.

I very strongly crave love and affection (and/or sex), but I know that for a lot of reasons, I can't really have an affair.

But is there something wrong with me for wanting to?


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

I dont want to step on Capt Obvious toes here but why are you two still married? Dont dive into a mess of an affair, first get seperated and have all the love and affection from others that are out there.

Dont stay in a miserable situation and if your kids are young they will also pick up on the lack of love in the house.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Eagle3 said:


> I dont want to step on Capt Obvious toes here but why are you two still married? Dont dive into a mess of an affair, first get seperated and have all the love and affection from others that are out there.
> 
> Dont stay in a miserable situation and if your kids are young they will also pick up on the lack of love in the house.


Don't want to lose the kids, don't want to go through the hell of a divorce. I mean, we know that the divorce will eventually happen, but trying to prolong it until the kids are out of the house - about 5 years. I don't think we'll last that long.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

Are you looking for permission? Approval?


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Revamped said:


> Are you looking for permission? Approval?


No, because I know it's not gonna happen. Just opinions and perspective.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I was in your situation, ended up chosing to have an affair. Guess what. It solved nothing. Aside from giving up my integrity... 

I ended up telling my wife I wanted out of the marriage about two months after I had an affair, and after my affair ended. To me, it was a very strong indicator that there was nothing left to save in my marriage. I posted a long version of all this in the "Cheat or Leave" thread, if you want to see more. 

It's not unusual you feel this way, but don't give in to it. Just end your marriage, if you have to. Keep your integrity. Be able to know, when you're dating someone new, that you can answer all her questions honestly and without fear of reprisal. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Yes there is something wrong with you.

First, you need to figure out how you got yourself in this situation. Look DEEP within to see what happened to you.....to put up/allow this.

Second, you need to figure out what you are going to do about it. I would recommend that you sit down with your wife and have a serious conversation about ALL of your concerns.

Third, I would suggest marriage counseling ASAP.

Think of #2 and #3 as LAST RESORT/WARNING to her. IF she doesn't improve/act on it and makes it better you RUN FAST and never look back.

ALL OF THE ABOVE is under assumption that you are a good husband and do everything you can to spend time with your wife, show affection, initiate sex yourself, take interest in her....amongst 1 million other things that is required from each partner.

Whatever you do though, you DO NOT cheat. Figure out what went wrong, how and learn from it. End this relationship before you get into a new one. You clearly h ave a LOT to do with the way your marriage is today and ARE part of the problem.

You will only make your problems bigger and worse if you start cheating.

Meanwhile, to keep your self satisfied, say hello to your right hand (left if you are lefty).

Good luck


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> The question for me is in the title. I have been married for 25 years and the relationship has gone from strained to miserable to hellish. We haven't had sex for years, she doesn't sleep in the bed with me, and she is a total cold fish in terms of affection. She is also extremely verbal abusive toward me, especially in front of the kids. In short, I am sick and tired of her - in fact this whole thing is turning into, if not already turned into, hatred. Most of the time she acts like she can't stand to be in my presence, and the feeling is definitely mutual.
> 
> I very strongly crave love and affection (and/or sex), but I know that for a lot of reasons, I can't really have an affair.
> 
> But is there something wrong with me for wanting to?


I forgive you for being a human being and not completely blocking your emotions and going on with life.

You are at that position where you have to wonder whether it's best to cheat or leave.

Just think about if you are getting close to your deathbed, what decision would you have wanted to make?

Would you wanted to have toughed it out for 40 plus years of sexlessness and not cheated?

Would you wanted to have accepted that your wife didn't like you anymore like that, and behaved amicably in her presense and perhaps took on a lover for your need for affection and love?

Would you have preferred to leave instead of cheating.

I personally think in some cases taking on an outside lover IS the humane choice.

What if the husband had a physical anomaly that prevented him from any type of intercourse... Wouldn't it be a loving guesture for him to allow her to take on a lover?

Or is it better to sneak around and/or be starved and denied?


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

You say you're sticking it out because of the kids. But what you have to realize is, you're teaching them very bad relationship skills. How is that better for them?


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

I'm not even as far down the path as you. I've had affair thoughts cross my mind. The problem with an affair is that its a knee jerk reaction that has a life long impact. If she finds out, bad things happen. If you she doesnt find you, you still have to live with the guilt, bad thing.

Wanting to have one. Being interested in one. Totally common, not super healthy, but common. 

Also note, an affair will muddy up the divorce.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Don't think there's a guarantee you won't lose your children one way or another if you wait until they are gone to divorce your wife. I know more than one case where the adult children well into their twenties wanted nothing to do with the divorcing parent. 

As to an affair, since you don't want to divorce yet, think about it all you want but don't do it. It's stupid.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> Don't want to lose the kids, don't want to go through the hell of a divorce. I mean, we know that the divorce will eventually happen, but trying to prolong it until the kids are out of the house - about 5 years. I don't think we'll last that long.


I think you guys will be more friendly if you both agree to end it, and have the option to take on lovers. Keep the household going until the kids are out, but agree that you are going to have to at least be friendly about it.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Canario,

You've already basically asked this question (in a different way) in another thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/151394-sick-tired-being-married-but-stuck.html. Actually, you have several threads, all with the same theme.

There is nothing wrong with you WANTING sexual satisfaction and loving from a woman.

There IS something wrong with you contemplating it while you're married.

Follow all of the good advice given to you in your other thread... it's time to pull the plug on your miserable marriage.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Could you file for legal separation?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'm not even as far down the path as you. I've had affair thoughts cross my mind. The problem with an affair is that its a knee jerk reaction that has a life long impact. If she finds out, bad things happen. If you she doesnt find you, you still have to live with the guilt, bad thing.
> 
> Wanting to have one. Being interested in one. Totally common, not super healthy, but common.
> 
> Also note, an affair will muddy up the divorce.


I think he is beyond the "guilt" phase. That they are truly done. It would be a shame to be treated much less than in a temporary albiet long situation.


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## devotion (Oct 8, 2012)

A friend of mine told me his mom and dad hated each other but put up a good front until the kids graduated, but as soon as they graduated they broke up. They're not bitter, they just drifted apart. 

I'm not sure if I look at that as a success story or not. He does. My girlfriend's parents were also very distant from each other and are now trying to reconcile that the kids are OUT of the house. 

So I guess what I'm saying is that people DO stay together just for the kids or possibly the 'wrong' reasons. It is also OK to THINK about cheating; we're human and when we're in a bad spot we like to think about the easiest way out. But understand cheating is the worst option... option a is to try to make the marriage work option b is to end the marriage option c is to try to keep a fake marriage while cheating. 

If you think clearly option c is the worst one because yes you might get away with it, and it may at face value seem like you're doing it for the kids but you're not. You're just being selfish. Go with one of the other two options. 

This is coming from experience as my ex-wife cheated on me because I was obsessed with skipping option b and she could not live with option a. I've made it clear for my future wife that I will only accept option a or b, option c is never on the table.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

DoF said:


> Yes there is something wrong with you.
> 
> First, you need to figure out how you got yourself in this situation. Look DEEP within to see what happened to you.....to put up/allow this.



I've tried to do that. I know I have contributed to this mess, and I have acknowledged it. Problem is, she acknowledges absolutely nothing. No insight, no accountability. 



> Second, you need to figure out what you are going to do about it. I would recommend that you sit down with your wife and have a serious conversation about ALL of your concerns.


Been there, done that. She tells me I should just leave.


> Third, I would suggest marriage counseling ASAP.


She resisted it angrily until last year - we tried a couple of sessions, problem was, the counselor was useless. So that's not a possibility anymore.



> Think of #2 and #3 as LAST RESORT/WARNING to her. IF she doesn't improve/act on it and makes it better you RUN FAST and never look back.
> 
> ALL OF THE ABOVE is under assumption that you are a good husband and do everything you can to spend time with your wife, show affection, initiate sex yourself, take interest in her....amongst 1 million other things that is required from each partner.


In terms of affection and sex, she is not interested in it one bit. She rudely and brusquely rejects any advances I make. She doesn't want affection from me, and obviously she doesn't want sex. I have told her I think she is either having an affair or trying to have one. I don't want to stalk her though, because I don't want to deal with the consequences of finding out that my suspicions are dead on.






> Whatever you do though, you DO NOT cheat. Figure out what went wrong, how and learn from it. End this relationship before you get into a new one. You clearly h ave a LOT to do with the way your marriage is today and ARE part of the problem.


I admit I'm part of the problem. But I ain't the whole problem.



> You will only make your problems bigger and worse if you start cheating.
> 
> Meanwhile, to keep your self satisfied, say hello to your right hand (left if you are lefty).


Been there, done that. Sick and tired of that being the only sex life I had. It was that way before marriage, and I am very, very angry that it has to be that way now. Nobody wants to be married and involuntarily celibate. That's a freaking waste and an oxymoron.



> Good luck


Thanks.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Revamped said:


> You say you're sticking it out because of the kids. But what you have to realize is, you're teaching them very bad relationship skills. How is that better for them?


I do understand this, but I have also told them to be very, very, very, very, very careful about who they date......and only marry or be serious about a woman if they are ABSOLUTELY sure they are with the right person. It's obvious that I chose the wrong person, but I was desperate and stupid.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

ElCanario said:


> I do understand this, *but I have also told them* to be very, very, very, very, very careful about who they date......and only marry or be serious about a woman if they are ABSOLUTELY sure they are with the right person. It's obvious that I chose the wrong person, but I was desperate and stupid.


*FAIL.*

Actions speak far louder than words. They will only "hear" some of what you *say*. They will "live" 24/7 what you *do.*


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> *FAIL.*
> 
> Actions speak far louder than words. They will only "hear" some of what you *say*. They will "live" 24/7 what you *do.*


I don't know what to say then. They see that I stay with them in their lives and don't abandon them like some fathers and mothers do. I don't know what to teach them about relationships other than what I've said. When you are dealing with a person who is bat---- crazy, you can only hope to teach the kids how not to choose someone who is.


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## Faeleaf (Jul 22, 2014)

ElCanario said:


> Don't want to lose the kids, don't want to go through the hell of a divorce. I mean, we know that the divorce will eventually happen, but trying to prolong it until the kids are out of the house - about 5 years. I don't think we'll last that long.


Honest question - what advice would you give to your son, if he were facing the same problem as you?

Believe it or not, you are giving that advice right now, this very moment, by the choices you make. 

Your advice to your son can be any of the following: 

"Stay and make each other miserable. Fight as often or as hard as you want to. You just gotta make it by until the kids turn 18." 
"Get counselling, work really hard to make the marriage succeed. Don't rest until you get it working again. This is going to be super hard and require you to make a lot of changes for her, too."
"Have an affair, or even several. Don't worry about the promise you made to be faithful. And if you end up getting some lady pregnant or bringing home an STD oh well, the wife asked for it by being such a miserable creature."
"Be up front and tell the truth to your wife that the situation has become intolerable. Explain that you will need to cheat on her, get a divorce, or see some major improvement on the relationship. The status quo won't work anymore, but at least give her fair warning and ask for her preference."
"Leave. Just make tracks. Why are you still around anyway? Don't worry about the kids - they'll be fine eventually."

Have you noticed that all this advice is kind of awful? Yes, it is. You're in a tough situation and there are no easy outs. 

But be sure of one thing - you can't live one way, and advise your kids to live another. Whatever choice you make for YOURSELF will influence the choices they make in their own lives.

Good luck - I am truly sorry you are faced with a decision so difficult.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Faeleaf said:


> Honest question - what advice would you give to your son, if he were facing the same problem as you?
> 
> Believe it or not, you are giving that advice right now, this very moment, by the choices you make.
> 
> ...


I would tell them to do what I bolded above. I am stuck in limbo because this is not an option for me. Why? Because the wife is an unreasonable person who doesn't want to compromise or change on any level. She's great - I'm the devil. 

I am not really worried about actually having an affair or dealing with said consequences - and I will NEVER under any circumstances leave my kids - and that includes divorce.



> Have you noticed that all this advice is kind of awful? Yes, it is. You're in a tough situation and there are no easy outs.
> 
> But be sure of one thing - you can't live one way, and advise your kids to live another. Whatever choice you make for YOURSELF will influence the choices they make in their own lives.
> 
> Good luck - I am truly sorry you are faced with a decision so difficult.


Thanks.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

ElCanario said:


> Don't want to lose the kids, don't want to go through the hell of a divorce. I mean, we know that the divorce will eventually happen, but trying to prolong it until the kids are out of the house - about 5 years. I don't think we'll last that long.


BS.

You're in hell now and willing to keep going through it.

You want to take the easy way out.

My advice?

Nothing good ever came from taking the easy way out.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

treyvion said:


> I think you guys will be more friendly if you both agree to end it, and have the option to take on lovers. Keep the household going until the kids are out, but agree that you are going to have to at least be friendly about it.


She has a husband who wants to be her lover. No way in hell is she gonna reject me and then go outside of the relationship.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

You have no idea what you want. First you say you're to the point of hating her and now you're ready to have sex with her.

Make up your mind already. Go. Stay. Pick a path. But at least be consistent with it.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Believe me, you are NOT doing your kids any favors by staying with their mom for their sakes. Do you think they don't know what you're doing? They're going to grow up resenting the fact you stayed so unhappy just because of them, or else they're going to enter into the same kind of relationship you're in.

Whoever posted that it isn't your words but your ACTIONS that they will notice hit it bang on.

If your wife really is the total b1tch you say she is, your kids also already know that, and shouldn't blame you one iota for divorcing her.

As for the choices you have, have you considered sitting down with your wife and laying out the facts to her? Not to ask her permission to cheat, but to tell her where your mind is going. If you DO get the 'fine then leave' speech again, tell her that part of you 'leaving' will involve leaving yourself open to a new relationship until the one you're in can be dissolved. Be honest with her - and with yourself - because if you truly have no intention of staying with her, initiate divorce proceedings, keep them as amicable as possible, and move on with your life.

I am firmly a believer in NEVER having a reason to cheat, but if you tell your wife how you feel and what you intend, and she remains a cold hearted b1tch and basically tells you she doesn't give a flying fvck, and divorce proceedings are in the works, in my mind that isn't cheating.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

karole said:


> Could you file for legal separation?


They don't have that option in my state.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

treyvion said:


> I think he is beyond the "guilt" phase. That they are truly done. It would be a shame to be treated much less than in a temporary albiet long situation.


I would have to say that is true - I would feel no guilt whatsoever. Why would I? Not that I'm depriving her of anything.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Revamped said:


> You have no idea what you want. First you say you're to the point of hating her and now you're ready to have sex with her.


I'm angry at her mostly because she won't have sex with me. If she had been having sex with me, I wouldn't be so angry with her.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Sure she could. Many who are in sexless marriages feel the withholding spouse would never cheat and often they are wrong. She might or she might not be interested in an open marriage. I don't support them under any circumstances but ask her what she thinks. Sometimes even the idea that a spouse is going to outsource that part of marriage is enough to wake the withholding spouse up.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Openminded said:


> Sure she could. Many who are in sexless marriages feel the withholding spouse would never cheat and often they are wrong. She might or she might not be interested in an open marriage. I don't support them under any circumstances but ask her what she thinks. Sometimes even the idea that a spouse is going to outsource that part of marriage is enough to wake the withholding spouse up.


She has proposed open marriage. I have told her hell no.


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## Faeleaf (Jul 22, 2014)

ElCanario said:


> I've tried to do that. I know I have contributed to this mess, and I have acknowledged it. Problem is, she acknowledges absolutely nothing. No insight, no accountability.


Question for you - how safe is she to do so? 

My sister and her husband have a pretty hostile, antagonistic relationship. One of my sister's main complaints is just this, that he never takes responsibility for anything, that it's always 100% HER fault, and he doesn't apologize.

I have news for her - neither does she. She thinks she does, but she doesn't. I've heard her fighting with her spouse - she's a big-time attacker. Even when she is "owning up" to something, she is spitting it back at him. Her words and delivery launch him right into the defensive. No wonder all he can do is keep pushing back. 

When someone approaches you with a sword, you draw your own. 

If your spouse never admits to any wrongdoing, it might be because they never feel safe enough to do so.

If you want "ownership" from your spouse, sometimes you have to act radically. Not just set an example, but set such a profoundly good one that it knocks them right over in surprise. 

The most powerful three words your spouse can hear from you isn't, "I love you." It's "You are right." If you don't mean it, then take some time to really step back and think it over, until you do mean it. Until you can stop defending your own viewpoint and really, truly, soak up hers. 

You are BOTH allowed to be right - even when you are disagreeing. You can see how she is right, without abandoning your own rightness. But first, she needs to be right. Let it happen - embrace it.

Say your spouse is angry at you for being late to dinner. It wasn't your fault really - you had to work late, and you HATE working late, but the project needed to be done. Now your wife went to a lot of trouble to make dinner at a certain time and she's screaming angry at you because, "This always happens," and "My whole evening is out of order," and "You're so inconsiderate, only thinking of yourself!" 

Back off, and let what she is right about sink in. See her side of things. Still your objections and your own anger. Say, "I hear how upset this has made you. You're absolutely right to be disappointed that dinner didn't go as you planned. I'm sorry I was the cause of that. I should have seen the late night coming and warned you in advance." 

Don't say anything else. Especially not to defend yourself. Let her be completely, totally surprised that you were able to see things her way. 

Usually, in a somewhat-functional relationship, that kind of radical agreement is enough to shock the other person into humility, and they immediately want to apologize in return for something THEY did to YOU. This really works. If you guys have a long pattern of ugliness, you might need to repeat this several times before it starts working for you. But believe me, it's powerful stuff. I promise you - it's worked wonders in my own marriage.

Honestly, if you want your wife to say "I'm sorry," the best way to get there is by telling her, "You are right," when she is upset about something. When she expects a fight, don't give her one. It sounds crazy, but it's true.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Faeleaf said:


> Question for you - how safe is she to do so?
> 
> My sister and her husband have a pretty hostile, antagonistic relationship. One of my sister's main complaints is just this, that he never takes responsibility for anything, that it's always 100% HER fault, and he doesn't apologize.
> 
> ...


It's just my perspective, but she should never feel unsafe on any level with me. I have never given her a reason to feel unsafe. Conversely, it's me who feels unsafe with her, as she's had violent meltdowns and directed frighteningly intense amounts of rage at me. 



> If you want "ownership" from your spouse, sometimes you have to act radically. Not just set an example, but set such a profoundly good one that it knocks them right over in surprise.
> 
> The most powerful three words your spouse can hear from you isn't, "I love you." It's "You are right." If you don't mean it, then take some time to really step back and think it over, until you do mean it. Until you can stop defending your own viewpoint and really, truly, soak up hers.
> 
> ...


I've said it many times - "you're right." She simply cannot purse her lips to say it to me. She grew up in a really violent house in a really nasty neighborhood, and she thinks that showing any fault, remorse, or vulnerability means she's weak. And she never wants to come off as weak. I even think that in her twisted mind, she sees me as weak because I actually do try to look at more perspectives than my own and will show vulnerability and sensitivity. It's obvious that I picked the wrong one.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> She has proposed open marriage. I have told her hell no.


For you or for both of you? There are women who propose their husbands seek sex from others -- until it comes down to it and then suddenly it's not okay. If she's proposing it for both of you then that means she's lost the connection with you and not that she's not interested in sex at all.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Openminded said:


> For you or for both of you? There are women who propose their husbands seek sex from others -- until it comes down to it and then suddenly it's not okay. If she's proposing it for both of you then that means she's lost the connection with you and not that she's not interested in sex at all.


No, she said for both. I'm like, well, I want you, you don't want me but you want me to go out and get someone else - so you won't feel guilty about going out and getting someone else.

How idiotic is that?

Yes, I would say she's lost the connection.


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## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

Okay. I am so confused. You say you want to have an affair, but your wife proposed open marriage and you said NO?!

If you two don't want to get a divorce right now, then why wouldn't you both take on lovers to satisfy yourselves. You would probably be much happier that way because the emotional connection between you two seems to be really broken.

You need to stop complaining about your situation and take action. Either divorce or open marriage. Something has to give.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> She has proposed open marriage. I have told her hell no.


Well...I was going to tell you to have an affair until I read this. Okay for you but not her is what I'm hearing. Hm. 

Look - if the kids are the concern and you feel like you need to live under the same roof to raise them "properly," just agree to live together as roommates. Move yourself into another bedroom, go f^ck whoever you want with impunity and suck it up that she will do the same. 

But really, if you HATE each other, living under the same roof isn't doing your kids any good.


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## Faeleaf (Jul 22, 2014)

ElCanario said:


> It's just my perspective, but she should never feel unsafe on any level with me. I have never given her a reason to feel unsafe. Conversely, it's me who feels unsafe with her, as she's had violent meltdowns and directed frighteningly intense amounts of rage at me.
> 
> 
> 
> I've said it many times - "you're right." She simply cannot purse her lips to say it to me. She grew up in a really violent house in a really nasty neighborhood, and she thinks that showing any fault, remorse, or vulnerability means she's weak. And she never wants to come off as weak. I even think that in her twisted mind, she sees me as weak because I actually do try to look at more perspectives than my own and will show vulnerability and sensitivity. It's obvious that I picked the wrong one.


Sorry - I meant emotionally safe. Not physically safe. 

Emotions don't have IQ's - and hers are still taking orders from her childhood. I can really see why she doesn't feel safe enough to back down on anything. Abusive imprinting on a child can be EXTREMELY hard to overcome. My mother was terribly abused, and it took her nearly 50 years to start unlearning some of her triggers. It's the worst - for everyone.

The adult version of an abused child never really sees themselves like the rest of the world does. You see a screaming, angry, powerful grown woman. She sees herself as a little helpless girl still. Her fear and anger are magnified x100, not because of anything you did or didn't do, but because of what happened to her as a kid. The reactive, emotional mind keeps funneling all her current experiences through that childhood lens.

Say that to her. Tell her you understand why she has to keep fighting for herself. That you two are on the same team, and you refuse to fight against a teammate. That you'll win or lose together and your strength is her strength.

Now...I wouldn't want to be married to my mother, because that had to have been hell. So I sympathize with what you are trying to do here. I really do. 

It also wasn't wonderful being her kid. One of the best things my dad did was get us out of there...but that's because he got custody of us. If he had lost custody, it would have been a nightmare for us. So if you fear she would get custody, then I can see your position. In that case, staying with her, taking the bullet for the kids (since YOU chose her, and they didn't) is understandable.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> No, she said for both. I'm like, well, I want you, you don't want me but you want me to go out and get someone else - so you won't feel guilty about going out and getting someone else.
> 
> How idiotic is that?
> 
> Yes, I would say she's lost the connection.


Unfortunately, she has. I thought maybe she was just low drive because of age or children or menopause looming or whatever. But that isn't it. 

Are you sure she's not cheating already?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Open - I was thinking the same, I think there is a reasonable chance she is cheating.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

ElCanario said:


> I don't know what to say then. They see that I stay with them in their lives and don't abandon them like some fathers and mothers do. I don't know what to teach them about relationships other than what I've said. When you are dealing with a person who is bat---- crazy, you can only hope to teach the kids how not to choose someone who is.


OMG. If you divorce their mother, YOU ARE NOT ABANDONING THEM! Stop being a wishy washy doormat and end this thing already.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> She has proposed open marriage. I have told her hell no.


Thing about this is you are the witholdee...

She is the withholder, and it may be likely that she's getting it from somewhere else.

I think an open situation where you guys hate each other like you do will bring the heat down between you two and you can get along for the common benefit of the kids.

As long as you think you are entitled to sex as her husband, or in great pain and stress because you cannot have sex with her, you guys will have that tension.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

inquizitivemind said:


> Okay. I am so confused. You say you want to have an affair, but your wife proposed open marriage and you said NO?!
> 
> If you two don't want to get a divorce right now, then why wouldn't you both take on lovers to satisfy yourselves. You would probably be much happier that way because the emotional connection between you two seems to be really broken.
> 
> You need to stop complaining about your situation and take action. Either divorce or open marriage. Something has to give.


I wouldn't want anyone if she weren't hostile to me. This isn't about me wanting to stray as much as it is about her not being receptive to my affection. 

I wouldn't have the desire to have an affair if she weren't the cold fish. 



firebelly1 said:


> Well...I was going to tell you to have an affair until I read this. Okay for you but not her is what I'm hearing. Hm.


It's not "okay" for me and not her. I don't want anyone but her. She doesn't want me. As a result, I feel like I want to go find someone else - but I'm not doing it because it's too damn dangerous and complicated. If she wanted me, this whole thing would be moot.




> Look - if the kids are the concern and you feel like you need to live under the same roof to raise them "properly," just agree to live together as roommates. Move yourself into another bedroom, go f^ck whoever you want with impunity and suck it up that she will do the same.


I can't take that. If I had gone out and screwed around I would understand, but I haven't.



> But really, if you HATE each other, living under the same roof isn't doing your kids any good.


I know.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Thing about this is you are the witholdee...
> 
> She is the withholder, and it may be likely that she's getting it from somewhere else.
> 
> ...


Of course I'm entitled to sex as her husband, just as she's entitled to sex as my wife. And yes, there is lots and lots of tension.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

DoF said:


> Third, I would suggest marriage counseling ASAP.
> 
> Think of #2 and #3 as LAST RESORT/WARNING to her.Good luck


Why should MC ONLY be a last resort/warning?

OP, you should have gone to marriage counseling YEARS ago. It's never too late, though. Find one who specializes in marriage and family therapy and has several good reviews.

Come on dude, you've been fighting for 25 years. You don't want to throw that all away. Go to marriage counseling right away.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> I wouldn't want anyone if she weren't hostile to me. This isn't about me wanting to stray as much as it is about her not being receptive to my affection.
> 
> I wouldn't have the desire to have an affair if she weren't the cold fish.
> 
> ...


Having an affair doesn't have to be that dangerous or complicated. If you have done everything you can to make your relationship with your wife work and she's not willing to do her part, then it's time to move on one way or another. And if your version of moving on is choosing to continue living under the same roof but getting sex elsewhere, so be it. That scenario will require you to assume she will do the same and you have to be alright with it.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> No, she said for both. I'm like, well, I want you, you don't want me but you want me to go out and get someone else - so you won't feel guilty about going out and getting someone else.
> 
> How idiotic is that?
> 
> Yes, I would say she's lost the connection.


I get you.

So your not all the way done yet, and you don't want to give her her excuse to go on ahead and cheat anyway.

When she already has d1ck in the house. It's a slap in your face.

What you could do is accept it's over, agree to split the bills, don't pay more than your share. That way you can at least get something out of it in reduced cost of living.

You guys probably will be nicer to each other with your own lovers, but you gotta let her go first.

But I know exactly what your talking about.

Like she is manipulating you so she can get her sex outside the house, the d1ck in the house isn't good enough, and you have to go outside too, it's just inefficient and messy. She also must look at the side benefit of you "taking care of her".

You "take care of her" when you allow her to have that anger and rage against you, and you don't go anywhere. How she talks to you, etc lets her maintain a phisod of greater power over you.

And some other guy openly banging your old lady and sending her home to you when he's done isn't a nice pill to swallow.

I get you.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

ElCanario said:


> She has proposed open marriage. I have told her hell no.


You have your answer already man.

You sure you're not already in an open marriage and just don't know it yet?


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## bjchristian (Jul 23, 2014)

ElCanario said:


> The question for me is in the title. I have been married for 25 years and the relationship has gone from strained to miserable to hellish. We haven't had sex for years, she doesn't sleep in the bed with me, and she is a total cold fish in terms of affection. She is also extremely verbal abusive toward me, especially in front of the kids. In short, I am sick and tired of her - in fact this whole thing is turning into, if not already turned into, hatred. Most of the time she acts like she can't stand to be in my presence, and the feeling is definitely mutual.
> 
> I very strongly crave love and affection (and/or sex), but I know that for a lot of reasons, I can't really have an affair.
> 
> But is there something wrong with me for wanting to?


One of the keys lies in how did you guys grow apart? either something is missing that was there before (or maybe you guys are total wrong for each other and have been living a sham life) If you find the reason, maybe your can slowly fix things if the two of you can put all the bad stuff behind you and focus on why you guys got together in the first place. I think this complex issue would require you to talk with someone who can guide this fragile relationship and see if it has a chance.

After trying to fix it and nothing works, then the two of you can explore other options.


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## P51Geo1980 (Sep 25, 2013)

I recently got out of a situation similar to yours except we didn't have kids. Some people, like your wife (and my STBXW) are just selfish and actively refuse to meet the needs of their spouse. This is NOT a marriage, it's a legal obligation to someone who respects dirt more than you. Just end the marriage already, trust me when I say this: your ****ty marriage affects your kids more than they let on. Your both setting a terrible example of what relationships should be. Almost as soon as I filed for divorce, one of my friends asked me out on a date and we've been together for a few months now. I was married but single for a very VERY long time, it's nice to be in a mutually respectful relationship now. You can read the thread I started to read about my situation and how I got our. Just out of curiosity, how would your wife react if you cheated? I think a lot of neglecters like to have their cake (emotional and/or financial support) and eat it too (put little to no effort into the relationship).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

ElCanario said:


> She has proposed open marriage. I have told her hell no.


you both know the marriage is over but are delaying the divorce until the kids move out? But you then tell your wife "hell no". She is getting a lot of mixed messages from you, no wonder she acts disrespectfully towards you.

if you are going to stick it out for 5 years, how about truthfully discussing the boundaries of your relationship with her. If she wants to have an open marriage, you should at least consider it. If you object, then maybe you subconsciously do not really want to divorce, and should work on the marriage instead. either way, get out of limbo. Make some decisions and move on.


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

With the constant refusal to let her get some outside the marriage, it seems more like he's manipulating the circumstances so he can play the "You gave me no choice" card.

The worst part of this is the message the kids are getting. Basically you are telling them it's okay to stay in an abusive relationship and they arent worthy of respect.
Kids arent dumb. They see you miserable and they will lose respect for you too.
You have to figure this one out...for your kid's sake.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Stay if you want to stay. Have an affair if you want to have an affair. People do what they want regardless of other people's opinions.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

ariel_angel77 said:


> Why should MC ONLY be a last resort/warning?
> 
> OP, you should have gone to marriage counseling YEARS ago. It's never too late, though. Find one who specializes in marriage and family therapy and has several good reviews.
> 
> Come on dude, you've been fighting for 25 years. You don't want to throw that all away. Go to marriage counseling right away.


We tried it briefly; it failed, and she doesn't want to go again. She never really wanted counseling in the first place.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

bjchristian said:


> One of the keys lies in how did you guys grow apart? either something is missing that was there before *(or maybe you guys are total wrong for each other and have been living a sham life)*


I think it's the bolded.



> If you find the reason, maybe your can slowly fix things if the two of you can put all the bad stuff behind you and focus on why you guys got together in the first place. I think this complex issue would require you to talk with someone who can guide this fragile relationship and see if it has a chance.
> 
> After trying to fix it and nothing works, then the two of you can explore other options.


I am reluctantly coming to the conclusion that this is gonna have to come to an end.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

murphy5 said:


> you both know the marriage is over but are delaying the divorce until the kids move out? But you then tell your wife "hell no". She is getting a lot of mixed messages from you, no wonder she acts disrespectfully towards you.



What are the mixed messages? I'm only delaying the divorce because I want the right to see my own children every day. I want the right to raise the kids.




> if you are going to stick it out for 5 years, how about truthfully discussing the boundaries of your relationship with her. If she wants to have an open marriage, you should at least consider it.


When we got married, I told her that I was not sharing her with any other man. I still feel that way. If she can't have me - she can't have anyone else.




> If you object, then maybe you subconsciously do not really want to divorce, and should work on the marriage instead. either way, get out of limbo. Make some decisions and move on.


Deep down, I don't want to divorce. But it seems as if that's the only option at this point.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

SamuraiJack said:


> With the constant refusal to let her get some outside the marriage, it seems more like he's manipulating the circumstances so he can play the "You gave me no choice" card.


So I'm supposed to let my WIFE have sex with other men while we are married? How phunking stupid is that? Did you think before you wrote this?




> The worst part of this is the message the kids are getting. Basically you are telling them it's okay to stay in an abusive relationship and they arent worthy of respect.
> Kids arent dumb. They see you miserable and they will lose respect for you too.
> You have to figure this one out...for your kid's sake.


I know this - bottom line is that I do not want to be in a situation where I am a part-time parent. And fathers still have to worry about that.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

ElCanario said:


> I know this - bottom line is that I do not want to be in a situation where I am a part-time parent. And fathers still have to worry about that.


I understand you & respect your decision however I am in the minority on TAM to stay together for the sake of the children. I did & it was the right choice. My adult children are well-adjusted & close to both parents. The key is to not fight in front of them if possible & make sure they feel loved & safe.

I do believe you are very unhappy & having an affair would not increase your happiness. Your unhappiness would simply follow you to your affair (geographics) & may increase your unhappiness. Best to try & improve your current situation or at least learn to accept it.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

ElCanario said:


> So I'm supposed to let my WIFE have sex with other men while we are married? How phunking stupid is that? Did you think before you wrote this?[/dQUOTE]
> 
> Ok, the whole concept is abhorrent to you. Got it.
> 
> ...


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

ElCanario said:


> So I'm supposed to let my WIFE have sex with other men while we are married? How phunking stupid is that? Did you think before you wrote this?


Funny, YOU were the one who started a thread about wanting to have an affair...hypocritical??


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> Funny, YOU were the one who started a thread about wanting to have an affair...hypocritical??


I stated:

1. I am not going to have an affair, even if I want to.

2. I want to have sex with my wife. If she were having sex with me, I wouldn't even consider having an affair.

Reading is fundamental.............


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

ElCanario said:


> The question for me is in the title. I have been married for 25 years and the relationship has gone from strained to miserable to hellish. We haven't had sex for years, she doesn't sleep in the bed with me, and she is a total cold fish in terms of affection. She is also extremely verbal abusive toward me, especially in front of the kids. In short, I am sick and tired of her - in fact this whole thing is turning into, if not already turned into, hatred. Most of the time she acts like she can't stand to be in my presence, and the feeling is definitely mutual.


And you want to have sex with her, why? Does she possess a magical vagina that spits out liquid gold every time?


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

ElCanario said:


> I stated:
> 
> 1. I am not going to have an affair, even if I want to.
> 
> ...


Maybe I'm just more "comfortable" with my Dark Side, but I'm not sure there's anything wrong with wanting to have an affair. Yes, seriously. In my book, that's called "temptation", and we all have some voice in our head tempting us to do something destructive and evil at times. So long as the voice which tells you what a bad idea it is and why is louder, I think you're good to go.

An example: my daughter was raped by an ex-boyfriend. Very, very unfortunately she did not report it. I spent some time planning his death, and I still struggle with those thoughts. Luckily for everybody I've been able to talk myself out of it by understanding the possible, even likely consequences to myself and the people I love. Same thing in your case.

Boy, the things you 'fess up to on a board like this...


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Revamped said:


> And you want to have sex with her, why? Does she possess a magical vagina that spits out liquid gold every time?


We're married.


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

ElCanario said:


> So I'm supposed to let my WIFE have sex with other men while we are married? How phunking stupid is that? Did you think before you wrote this?
> 
> I know this - bottom line is that I do not want to be in a situation where I am a part-time parent. And fathers still have to worry about that.


Oh yes, I thought about it. I have seen this before. The wife suggests and the man refuses. Then he uses it as an excuse...or uses it to continue to be a martyr. 

What I find strange is that you have put yourself in a no-win situation (seemingly) and you sound "proud" to be in it.

What EXACTLY does that do for you?
Where you expecting a different reaction from the forumites?

I'm not saying this to be mean. 
Im asking because I think you already wonder/suspect/know something is going to happen. 

Without using the kids or her as an excuse...gently ask yourself what this situation does for YOU.

It's been my experience that nobody sticks around in a situation like this unless it satisfies SOMETHING in them...meets some need of theirs...be it conscious or unconscious.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> I stated:
> 
> 1. I am not going to have an affair, even if I want to.


Well my friend. How many men have been in the exact same position as you? The situations work out about the same, due to the psychology and how the "game" plays out.

It's the same situation:

1. Wife doesn't think she has to put out because she already has the man
2. NO matter what happens, the man feeds her love
3. No matter what happens, the man keeps a roof over her head and her fed
4. She can talk to him any kind of way, and has low empathy for him and he doesn't leave

It's all the same.



ElCanario said:


> ElCanario said:
> 
> 
> > 2. I want to have sex with my wife. If she were having sex with me, I wouldn't even consider having an affair.
> ...


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> We tried it briefly; it failed, and she doesn't want to go again. She never really wanted counseling in the first place.


You said it's been 25 years. Man you guys are molded together like a puzzle right now, and the answer of the puzzle is you won't get any sex.

No matter how much more loyal, dependable, etc you are it boils down to the same result.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> We're married.


Your not married because if you were you would be "one flesh". Your someones meal ticket who doesn't care if they deny you even low amounts of affection.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

ElCanario said:


> Don't want to lose the kids, don't want to go through the hell of a divorce. I mean, we know that the divorce will eventually happen, but trying to prolong it until the kids are out of the house - about 5 years. I don't think we'll last that long.


Why? Do you think having them grow up in a verbally abusive household with a potentially cheating father so much better?


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

ElCanario said:


> We're married.


Oh, I see. So that means you both can be as nasty as you want towards each other, spew foul and disrespectful insults to each other and still have the audacity to expect she spreads for legs for you at any time.

Ain't marriage grand.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

treyvion said:


> Your not married because if you were you would be "one flesh". Your someones meal ticket who doesn't care if they deny you even low amounts of affection.


Marriage is a choice that you make every day.

I wouldn't consider myself married.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

SamuraiJack said:


> Oh yes, I thought about it. I have seen this before. The wife suggests and the man refuses. Then he uses it as an excuse...or uses it to continue to be a martyr.
> 
> What I find strange is that you have put yourself in a no-win situation (seemingly) and you sound "proud" to be in it.
> 
> ...


After a while in these situations people develop a need for drama or working on an unsolveable rubix cube.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Revamped said:


> Oh, I see. So that means you both can be as nasty as you want towards each other, spew foul and disrespectful insults to each other and still have the audacity to expect she spreads for legs for you at any time.
> 
> Ain't marriage grand.


At least she was honest. She wants him to be there to take care of her because he's good at that, but suggested an open relationship so she can get her intimate needs met OUTSIDE the house.

h


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Hope1964 said:


> Whoever posted that it isn't your words but your ACTIONS that they will notice hit it bang on.


It was ME, Hope! (Just love to score those TAM "brownie points" whenever I can.) jk, of course.

Canario, listen to the *great advice* you are getting from *seasoned TAMers* who have been around this block a time or two (or a hundred or two hundred).


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Why? Do you think having them grow up in a verbally abusive household with a potentially cheating father so much better?


Yes, THIS!!


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Why? Do you think having them grow up in a verbally abusive household with a potentially cheating father so much better?


Me being a "potential cheater" is irrelevant. I'm also a "potential" assaulter or murderer. But the fact is, I am none of those things. 

And they will be around verbal abuse as long as they are around her.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Revamped said:


> Oh, I see. So that means you both can be as nasty as you want towards each other, spew foul and disrespectful insults to each other and still have the audacity to expect she spreads for legs for you at any time.


I expected her to spread her legs for me long before the stuff got bad. I don't expect anything at all now. I just wish. 





> Ain't marriage grand.


It sucks. But I'm sure divorce is just freaking nirvana.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

Ok, let's try it like this.


What is it, that as a forum, can help you through?


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> It was ME, Hope! (Just love to score those TAM "brownie points" whenever I can.) jk, of course.
> 
> Canario, listen to the *great advice* you are getting from *seasoned TAMers* who have been around this block a time or two (or a hundred or two hundred).


I'm listening and learning.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Revamped said:


> Ok, let's try it like this.
> 
> 
> What is it, that as a forum, can help you through?


I just need venting, talking. I have nobody to discuss these things with.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

Your views on marriage seem very traditional. Did you grow up religiously? Do you maintain a faith based household?


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

ElCanario said:


> Me being a "potential cheater" is irrelevant. I'm also a "potential" assaulter or murderer. But the fact is, I am none of those things.
> 
> And they will be around verbal abuse as long as they are around her.


I can relate a lot more than you realize ElCanario. I had a HORRIBLE marriage, went sexless for long periods of time (well I was sexless, my exwife wasn't LOL). I can see the draw to cheat, but it's really a poor answer.

My ex was awful when I was married to her, not just to me. But we divorced and she actually calmed down, because now she found herself in a better situation.

Divorces stink....no doubt. But you have to look at the alternative in terms of damage being done.

Together, you and your wife are dysfunctional, meaning your kids are being raised in a 100% dysfunctional home. If you divorce and you establish a healthy home and your ex at that point is still dysfunctional, then you can reduce it to 50%, and that's all they may need to "stay the course" to being well adjusted children.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Revamped said:


> Your views on marriage seem very traditional. Did you grow up religiously? Do you maintain a faith based household?


I consider myself, in a social sense, very conservative. I grew up religiously, yes, but I do not consider myself religious now.

My wife and I are from different religious traditions, and as a result we didn't raise our kids in any certain religion. But they are, I hope, affected by my values, which, as I said, could be construed as being based in religion.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

Are your parents still alive? Do you feel the reasons you hang so tightly to your marriage vows are inspired by them?


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Revamped said:


> Are your parents still alive? Do you feel the reasons you hang so tightly to your marriage vows are inspired by them?


My father died when I was a baby. My mother thinks I should have never married my wife and, to be understated, they hate each other.

As for marriage, I just feel that when I got married, I did so with the intention of staying together forever, and that it's a failure to break up. I know I would definitely fare better (on a day to day basis) if I were not married anymore, but I don't want to lose the kids, I don't want to go through the horrific process of breaking up, and I don't want to be lonely.

I will say on the third point that I am starting not to care about that. I am not looking forward to dating, but I think I'd rather be lonely than married to her. And that is a very new revelation to me; I hated being alone because I was alone so much before meeting her.


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

ElCanario said:


> My father died when I was a baby. My mother thinks I should have never married my wife and, to be understated, they hate each other.
> 
> As for marriage, I just feel that when I got married, I did so with the intention of staying together forever, and that it's a failure to break up. I know I would definitely fare better (on a day to day basis) if I were not married anymore, but I don't want to lose the kids, I don't want to go through the horrific process of breaking up, and I don't want to be lonely.
> 
> I will say on the third point that I am starting not to care about that. I am not looking forward to dating, but I think I'd rather be lonely than married to her. And that is a very new revelation to me; I hated being alone because I was alone so much before meeting her.


Ahhh. 
There it is.
You have an agreement with your very young self that you dont ever want your children to be without their dad like you were.

The younger the agreement is made, the stronger it is and the more elusive it is to see.

IT may be the reason you are taking SO much disrespect and abuse in the name of being there for your kids.
Admirable to a point, but now this is working against you.
As you take abuse that other men would balk at, your agreement is sitting on your shoulder going "It's okay. You can take anything. Remember you HAVE to be here for the kids."

The other things you cite may also stem from that agreement. I see these agreements place a LOT of pressure on people.

Look closely and see if there is something there that gives you that extra staying power. 
You might be surprised.
"Oooo. IF you get divorced you will be alone half the time." "If you get divorced you are a failure!" "Only selfish people get divorced."

Yes, divorce is a failure.
It's a failure of a plan two people had.
Nobody will deny you that.
Its tragic and painful and a life altering event.
But it CAN be survived and you can come out the other end stronger than you went in.

You came here with a question and I think you are getting what you were actually coming for.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

SamuraiJack said:


> Ahhh.
> There it is.
> You have an agreement with your very young self that you dont ever want your children to be without their dad like you were.
> 
> ...


:iagree: Excellent post, Jack!


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

When you think about failures, and there is a bad-bad situation,

Is it better to lose in the short term to lessen pain

Or

Is it better to stay status quo to avoid pain at all costs.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

SamuraiJack said:


> Ahhh.
> There it is.
> You have an agreement with your very young self that you dont ever want your children to be without their dad like you were.
> 
> ...


Sometimes plans, promises or commitments have to be scrapped.

The cost may have been greater than perceived, or the other party is simply not living up to their end, or worse leveraging your loyalty against you.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Revamped said:


> You say you're sticking it out because of the kids. But what you have to realize is, you're teaching them very bad relationship skills. How is that better for them?


Teaching the importance of committing and respecting a covenant will be valuable to those children the rest of their lives. That is not a bad relationship skill -- it's patience. It is teaching that sticking it out often is the best, certainly better than giving up.

And, yes, I am speaking from personal experience.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

wanttolove said:


> Teaching the importance of committing and respecting a covenant will be valuable to those children the rest of their lives. That is not a bad relationship skill -- it's patience. It is teaching that sticking it out often is the best, certainly better than giving up.
> 
> And, yes, I am speaking from personal experience.


Ask your kids how your miserable marriage has affected them in five years. Be sure you brace yourself for their answers, because they wont be nice. 

Would you seriously advise your children to stay in the same miserable situation that you are now in?? "Hey, sticking out the misery is way more important than you having a happy, fulfilling life.". Yeah thats what every child wants to hear from their parent.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> There IS something wrong with you contemplating it while you're married.


There is something wrong with contemplating it? That is similar to saying it is wrong to be tempted! Following through is a very bad idea, but it's natural to contemplate or be tempted..

So why is it wrong to contemplate? I am interested to know.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> Ask your kids how your miserable marriage has affected them in five years. Be sure you brace yourself for their answers, because they wont be nice.
> 
> Would you seriously advise your children to stay in the same miserable situation that you are now in?? "Hey, sticking out the misery is way more important than you having a happy, fulfilling life.". Yeah thats what every child wants to hear from their parent.


As I said before, I would tell them not to marry a miserable cow and that it was far better to stay single than to marry the wrong person.

They are in a much different situation than I was. Most importantly, I had minimal experience with women before getting married. I had married because I was in my mid-20s before having even as much as a kiss and hooked up with the first girlfriend I ever had because I was afraid I would never find anyone at all.

They are not the loser I was as a kid.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

3Xnocharm said:


> Ask your kids how your miserable marriage has affected them in five years. Be sure you brace yourself for their answers, because they wont be nice.
> 
> Would you seriously advise your children to stay in the same miserable situation that you are now in?? "Hey, sticking out the misery is way more important than you having a happy, fulfilling life.". Yeah thats what every child wants to hear from their parent.


I already see the benefits of my making sure I stuck it out -- because my children are not miserable children. They are happy and healthy from having a father there for them and a mother who also is there for them. They have a family. Are their parents satisfied with each other? No. They know that but they don't know the extent. They know they have parents who value them, love them enough to set their priorities straight.

Yes, I would advise my children to value their role as a parent as what is more satisfying than finding that perfect spouse. There is a value AND a satisfaction to sticking it out.

It's called teaching your children character.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

ElCanario said:


> As I said before, I would tell them not to marry a miserable cow and that it was far better to stay single than to marry the wrong person.


Lol! I don't think ANY marriage starts off as a "miserable cow" situation. That usually takes time with a myriad of communication breakdown issues, stubbornness and disrespect towards one another.

Nobody can tell you what's right for you. If you feel that staying in a relationship that's unsatisfying just for the sake of your children, that's your decision.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

I can tell you from experience how miserable it can be for kids of those parents who stick it out. It didn't build my character pr help me when the going got tough in marriage. 

My parents hated each other. They stayed married for us kids, much to our dismay. They fought constantly. They sulked; they didn't talk for days. They avoided each other. They were miserable; we were miserable. Though I never told them, I hated them for not divorcing and putting us through that. 

What did I get from it, in addition to a miserable childhood? I got pregnant at 17 by a loser. I was sleeping around, but my parents didn't notice it, too tied up in their own issues. That pushed my parents over the edge, and they divorced. Of course, they blamed me for the divorce. I have been married 3 times. I have stayed in bad relationships because my self-esteem was terrible. Fighting parents often don't boost their kids self-esteem or teach them about loving relationships; I had bad role models. I was over 40 before I ever felt good about myself. 

I know those of you who stay for the kids are trying to do the right thing, just as my parents tried. But you have no idea how damaging it is. I could go on and on about how damaged my life was, but I finally learned on my own and have a good life now. 

Build character? Hardly....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

Let me add, my mom went on after divorce to have a loving marriage to a good man. She's very happy. My dad married and divorced a few times, and died very bitter in his 50s. He refused to see me for years, and i never saw him before he died. I guess I was to blame for part of his misery. He left a large inheritance to someone other than his kids. I sometimes wonder if he had gotten out if the marriage when he was younger, would it have been different? I will never know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

ElCanario said:


> The question for me is in the title. I have been married for 25 years and the relationship has gone from strained to miserable to hellish. We haven't had sex for years, she doesn't sleep in the bed with me, and she is a total cold fish in terms of affection. She is also extremely verbal abusive toward me, especially in front of the kids. In short, I am sick and tired of her - in fact this whole thing is turning into, if not already turned into, hatred. Most of the time she acts like she can't stand to be in my presence, and the feeling is definitely mutual.
> 
> I very strongly crave love and affection (and/or sex), but I know that for a lot of reasons, I can't really have an affair.
> 
> But is there something wrong with me for wanting to?


Why not just leave? That would be the easiest and long term solution.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Would she even care? She hates you....you hate her. Haven't had sex in years....she is probably thinking the same thing.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

ladybird said:


> Why not just leave? That would be the easiest and long term solution.


I have kids and I won't leave them. Believe me, no kids, no marital problems, because I would have been gone long ago.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

richie33 said:


> Would she even care? She hates you....you hate her. Haven't had sex in years....she is probably thinking the same thing.


She'd care. She's not about being reasonable. If I had one, she'd just feel like she could go out there and be a ho.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

ElCanario said:


> She'd care. She's not about being reasonable. If I had one, she'd just feel like she could go out there and be a ho.


Why would that matter at this point? The vows basically stop mattering years ago once you stopped sleeping together, stopped sharing a martial bed. You are roommates. 
Somewhere inside you still love her. If you really dislike her who cares. Right now its only a piece of paper.Sorry but sex is a need and a want that if you are not getting it for years you are really not living.
I am not telling you to cheat. I just dont understand how two people who can't even look at each other without disgust and know they are going to divorce can live like this.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

ElCanario said:


> I have kids and I won't leave them. Believe me, no kids, no marital problems, because I would have been gone long ago.


Ok, but if you mess up your kids, that's on you. It would be much better for them not to live in this hostile environment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

richie33 said:


> Why would that matter at this point? The vows basically stop mattering years ago once you stopped sleeping together, stopped sharing a martial bed. You are roommates.


She made that decision. I didn't. I told her long ago that she will always be mine and I will always be hers. I'm not sharing her with anyone. I can't get any - neither can she. Bottom line. 



> Somewhere inside you still love her.


I don't deny that. But I have told her that I am willing and able to fall out of love if she continues to act like this.



> If you really dislike her who cares. Right now its only a piece of paper.Sorry but sex is a need and a want that if you are not getting it for years you are really not living.


Yes, don't I know it. 



> I am not telling you to cheat. I just dont understand how two people who can't even look at each other without disgust and know they are going to divorce can live like this.


It's really hard to love and hate someone at the same time. But her going out and trying to lure some man is a slap in my face that I will not tolerate. 

Why do I stay? I can't afford to leave and I don't want to disrupt the kids' lives.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Well good luck to you. Hopefully something changes and your marriage can get back on track.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

Sad that you choose to be miserable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

tennisstar said:


> Sad that you choose to be miserable.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd be miserable no matter what.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

Did you see how this can mess your kids up? So if you're miserable, so should they be? 

Would you be happy if one day you met someone else and had a happy marriage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

tennisstar said:


> Did you see how this can mess your kids up? So if you're miserable, so should they be?
> 
> Would you be happy if one day you met someone else and had a happy marriage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would love that, but am not very confident that will happen.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Man up.

If you are that miserable then file for divorce and seperate from your wife before you start sleeping with someone else. Don't turn yourself into a pig. You have an affair then you are automatically wrong, no matter what your wife has done to make you miserable (exception: if she is unfaithful).


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> I'd be miserable no matter what.


You wouldn't be miserable if you where having a satisfactory sex life, you would be happy.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

treyvion said:


> You wouldn't be miserable if you where having a satisfactory sex life, you would be happy.


Yeh, of course I'd be happy. I just fear it will never happen.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

ElCanario said:


> Yeh, of course I'd be happy. I just fear it will never happen.


Never be happy with your wife or in another relationship?



Do you feel you have what it takes to attract another woman?



It took a while for me to chime in... I wanted to read all of it first....



How would you feel if you met a woman who was all over and she gave you the opportunity for wild passionate sex?

Would that change your prospective?


IMO, I think you would have sex with another women in a heartbeat if the opportunity presented itself.

You fear your wife will have sex before you.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

even though it has filed miserably in the past, I think the marriage counselor way is the only way open now. Either that or just live as roommates, you in the guest room, with no sex. 

five years is not an eternity to wait to move on. And you might find your teenage kids are not around much anyway, and maybe you can hasten your departure. Get a nice big screen tv for the guest bedroom with an Xbox one in there, and play games online to keep your sanity.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

ElCanario said:


> It's really hard to love and hate someone at the same time. But her going out and trying to lure some man is a slap in my face that I will not tolerate.


The basis you have for "marriage" Is quite admirable. The question becomes what you consider a quality of Life issue. You say you'd sacrifice yourself for your children. Their needs transcends your own.

Points have been brought up that your children can be MORE hurt by staying together rather than you and your wife divorcing. You call it a failure. And you are 100% right.

Just a thought of mine... I'd rather fail and admit defeat to my children rather than live a lie to show them I can "win" at marriage.

Sometimes losing gracefully is BETTER than winning at all costs.

JMHO...


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> Yeh, of course I'd be happy. I just fear it will never happen.


You need to let that fear go and be positive. Of course it will happen, once you open your mind to it it will eventually happen.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Trickster said:


> Never be happy with your wife or in another relationship?


Both. But I was referring to another relationship.



> Do you feel you have what it takes to attract another woman?


Hard to say. I am a good, solid, caring, compassionate person. I am highly educated and very intelligent. I am a strong, tough man with a varied, interesting background.

But I have never been attractive to women - at least before getting married. It's been many years since then, though, so I wonder - will I fare better in the dating world than I did as a young man, or will I fare worse? I greatly fear the latter.




> It took a while for me to chime in... I wanted to read all of it first....
> 
> 
> 
> How would you feel if you met a woman who was all over and she gave you the opportunity for wild passionate sex?


I'd think it were too good to be true. I mean, it's not something that has ever happened before.





> Would that change your prospective?


Hell, yeah.




> IMO, I think you would have sex with another women in a heartbeat if the opportunity presented itself.


Before or after the divorce? Well, the way I feel right now, yeah, probably. But opportunities like that don't present themselves.



> You fear your wife will have sex before you.


Yes.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

murphy5 said:


> even though it has filed miserably in the past, I think the marriage counselor way is the only way open now. Either that or just live as roommates, you in the guest room, with no sex.


My neighbor (who is in the midst of a divorce) recommended a good counselor, but the wife doesn't want to go. And I ain't sleeping nowhere but my bed. She doesn't want to sleep with me? She's gotta move. And so she has.



> five years is not an eternity to wait to move on. And you might find your teenage kids are not around much anyway, and maybe you can hasten your departure. Get a nice big screen tv for the guest bedroom with an Xbox one in there, and play games online to keep your sanity.


I'm playing online as we speak.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Revamped said:


> The basis you have for "marriage" Is quite admirable. The question becomes what you consider a quality of Life issue. You say you'd sacrifice yourself for your children. Their needs transcends your own.
> 
> Points have been brought up that your children can be MORE hurt by staying together rather than you and your wife divorcing. You call it a failure. And you are 100% right.
> 
> ...


Well said.....


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

ElCanario-

How is your confidence with women in general?

Does your career or social life give you an opportunity to converse with other women?

Can you initiate a conversation with a women you don't know?


I'll admit that I have a hard time doing that myself... I am getting better at it...

Just today, l struck up a conversation with a very beautiful single/divorced mom... Some how we talked for bout 30 minutes. For over 2 years, I would usually just say "hello"... Or " what a beautiful day"..." How are you"....up until today, I didn't even know her name....

It is changing for me... I felt like you... And there is no reason for me, you, or anybody to feel that another woman would find us attractive...There are so many women out there....I look at them now, I acknowledge them, smile at them, wave at the if they are a regular I see at the hiking trail. Now, they wave at me first...A woman actually asked me out to lunch....just a friendly lunch, but still lunch and I was able to converse the whole time...



There is no reason to be afraid . I do understand its hard to change that negative thought pattern.It seems like you have a lot to offer.... Practice a little and see how women respond... 

Before you know it, you will have the confidence to attract your wife or other women if you wife had detached. My guess would be in about a year, you will have several love interest...


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Trickster said:


> ElCanario-
> 
> How is your confidence with women in general?


I don't have any. 




> Does your career or social life give you an opportunity to converse with other women?


A little, but not much.



> Can you initiate a conversation with a women you don't know?


In a word, no.




> I'll admit that I have a hard time doing that myself... I am getting better at it...
> 
> Just today, l struck up a conversation with a very beautiful single/divorced mom... Some how we talked for bout 30 minutes. For over 2 years, I would usually just say "hello"... Or " what a beautiful day"..." How are you"....up until today, I didn't even know her name....
> 
> ...


I have tried that a little in the past, and the results were disastrous. 



> Before you know it, you will have the confidence to attract your wife or other women if you wife had detached. My guess would be in about a year, you will have several love interest...


Recently a beautiful young woman from my job asked me to lunch. We have been talking and I have helped her with some job-related work. She seems to notice things about my appearance (new glasses, haircut,etc.) but I wonder why the "interest." We went to lunch and had a nice time and we will go again. But I still wonder why she asked me to lunch.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

ElCarario-

If there was an award for the most shy kid in High School, would of won. I was very cute back then. If only I was more confident back then. 

It has taken a lot of effort to change my mindset... Like you, my wife doesn't care all that much for sex , which hasn't helped my ego all that much.

I have change so much this last year..Although I still have that negative thought pattern, I am better at it. I had several blunders, but I press on...

Find some hobby's that put you near women. I volunteer at an animal shelter because I like Dogs... 90% of the volunteers are women as well as the staff... It gives me a chance to practice communication with women with a common interest..

My wife is unloving like your wife...I think there will come a time when you will welcome an open marriage... Or Divorce. You won't care what your wife does because you will have confidence in yourself. 

I am almost there.

With my neighbor... I walked past her like normal and after 50 feet or so I turned around and walked back to her and said " This is a little awkward... But after all this time_ I don't even know your name". She told me her name and I told her mine, which she already knew because of our community email messages from a stray dog I found, which lead to conversation... Remember, I have seen her many times over the past 2 years and this was the first real conversation....I am slow...


I would suggest practice practice practice with women, even if you are not attracted to them romantically.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

ElCanario said:


> Recently a beautiful young woman from my job asked me to lunch. We have been talking and I have helped her with some job-related work. She seems to notice things about my appearance (new glasses, haircut,etc.) but I wonder why the "interest." We went to lunch and had a nice time and we will go again. But I still wonder why she asked me to lunch.


You are treading on dangerous territory. Thoughts you have are quickly turning into reality. You had a lunch date with a co-worker. It can explode into a full blown affair and I think you're banking on that. May I remind you, you shouldn't crap where you eat.

In other words, dating someone you work with causes way more problems than what it solves. The momentary giddiness you are feeling might be wiped out when you're standing in the unemployment line. Or, the gossip behind your back as you walk by.

I can't stop you from cheating. But geez, dude, don't do it with some lady from work.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Revamped said:


> You are treading on dangerous territory. Thoughts you have are quickly turning into reality. You had a lunch date with a co-worker. It can explode into a full blown affair and I think you're banking on that. May I remind you, you shouldn't crap where you eat.
> 
> In other words, dating someone you work with causes way more problems than what it solves. The momentary giddiness you are feeling might be wiped out when you're standing in the unemployment line. Or, the gossip behind your back as you walk by.
> 
> I can't stop you from cheating. But geez, dude, don't do it with some lady from work.


You might not believe this.....but I'm not going to cheat with her. When I first posted in this thread, I said I would not cheat for several reasons. One reason involves not dealing with coworkers. And I really don't think this woman is interested in me that way anyway.


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

Cheat but be smart enough to not get caught.If you can afford to have a divorce do that,


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

ElCanario said:


> You might not believe this.....but I'm not going to cheat with her. When I first posted in this thread, I said I would not cheat for several reasons. One reason involves not dealing with coworkers. And I really don't think this woman is interested in me that way anyway.


You asked if there's something wrong to THINK about an affair. The simple answer is no. But you are evolving into a situation that can place you in a vicarious position. You might not INTEND for it to happen, but being in the company of a woman who expresses interest in you might tip the scale. You're lonely and unhappy, two key factors inherent prior to an affair.

And a phrase keeps going through my head, "I think he doth protest too much." You keep saying over and over again that you won't do it. But you're traveling down that road. Maybe you don't see that big Mac truck coming, Just sayin'....


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Revamped said:


> You asked if there's something wrong to THINK about an affair. The simple answer is no. But you are evolving into a situation that can place you in a vicarious position. You might not INTEND for it to happen, but being in the company of a woman who expresses interest in you might tip the scale. You're lonely and unhappy, two key factors inherent prior to an affair.
> 
> And a phrase keeps going through my head, "I think he doth protest too much." You keep saying over and over again that you won't do it. But you're traveling down that road. Maybe you don't see that big Mac truck coming, Just sayin'....


I understand your concerns. I am, despite my lonely, unhappy, depressed state, very cautious and realistic. Like I said, I don't think she's interested in me romantically (she has a fiancée and is much younger than me), so the temptation isn't as strong as it may seem.

There was only one time in my life that I was tempted and considered going through with it. My job used to require me to occasionally stay out late at night and go to clubs and see famous musicians. About 15 years ago, I was at a club and saw this woman who was, essentially, the woman of all my fantasies. She met every physical and personality requirement I had for the perfect woman. We began talking, and then went onto the dance floor, and stayed locked together very closely for what seemed like a couple of hours. We both acknowledged non-verbally, and, later, tacitly, that we were extremely physically attracted to each other. I have never before or since felt so intensely about a woman. I actually considered going home with her and having crazy, wild, mad, passionate sex. The offer was on the table, and it would have been worth it. But I just could not bring myself to do it. We exchanged numbers, but I was so afraid to call her, because I know that if I had stayed in contact, she would have tempted me to leave. I liked her that much. 

She called me about two years after to ask me about tickets to see a famous personality who was coming into town - and the first thing she said to me was how wonderful the night we spent together was. 

And we didn't even have sex.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

Do you think you could find that closeness you felt then, now? I mean you didn't have sex with that woman. How would it be if you regained some of those passionate feelings with your wife, without the sexual component to it?


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Revamped said:


> Do you think you could find that closeness you felt then, now? I mean you didn't have sex with that woman. How would it be if you regained some of those passionate feelings with your wife, without the sexual component to it?


I have tried. I am still very attracted to her, but there have been so many nasty things said and so much anger that I don't know if I can rekindle those feelings.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

ElCanario said:


> I have tried. I am still very attracted to her, but there have been so many nasty things said and so much anger that I don't know if I can rekindle those feelings.


What does your wife say in this matter?

Does she know?


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

marduk said:


> What does your wife say in this matter?
> 
> Does she know?


She's cut herself off physically and mentally. She says she wants out. Of course, she hasn't filed or anything, which could mean she either is too lazy to do so or really doesn't want out. I know all I hear from her when I try to talk to her is how I don't make enough money, how I don't do this, do that...ad nauseum.

Does she know? Well, she knows I'm miserable and bored. I told her that most recently last night.

Does she know I'm attracted to her? She does, but it doesn't matter to her.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> She's cut herself off physically and mentally. She says she wants out. Of course, she hasn't filed or anything, which could mean she either is too lazy to do so or really doesn't want out. I know all I hear from her when I try to talk to her is how I don't make enough money, how I don't do this, do that...ad nauseum.
> 
> Does she know? Well, she knows I'm miserable and bored. I told her that most recently last night.
> 
> Does she know I'm attracted to her? She does, but it doesn't matter to her.


Well do YOU. 

Here goes the deal, if that one lady who you where on the dance floor could get all into you, there are 100's to 1000's all around this country who could get all into you too.

I can't believe your wife thinks you don't make enough money.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

Are you done trying?

Cuz if you are, and she says she's done, I don't see why torturing the entire family is worth it.

If you're not done trying...

Is there Truth to what she says? 

Write down her "complaints" on two sheets of paper. On the first one, you answer those questions with brutal honesty from your point of view. On the second sheet, answer what you "think" she wants to hear. If you can, do the same with your "complaints" and ask her to fill it out.

To be honest this exercise doesn't accomplish much. What it DOES do is allow both sides to read, in print, all grievances. Sometimes, seeing it in print is eye-opening.

Don't discuss the answers with each other for a few days. Absorb what is written. A cooling off period. Somebody told me once, 90% of all marital fights will NEVER be resolved. It's the affirmation of the art of compromise is the key.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Well do YOU.
> 
> Here goes the deal, if that one lady who you where on the dance floor could get all into you, there are 100's to 1000's all around this country who could get all into you too.


The whole time I'm holding this lady, I'm thinking to myself, "man, you are one lucky SOB." I guess I just feel that it's such a crapshoot that I will meet someone like her again. She was truly - just from looks, anyway, the girl of my dreams.

I know all kinds of women I like and find very attractive, but they have to like me too. And the ones I sense may like me all seem to be taken. I'm also much older and not very good-looking (not that I was good-looking when young, either).



> I can't believe your wife thinks you don't make enough money.


It's true. Then again, we live in a very expensive area. I live in a bandbox and the home will soon be worth half a million.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

ElCanario said:


> She's cut herself off physically and mentally. She says she wants out. Of course, she hasn't filed or anything, which could mean she either is too lazy to do so or really doesn't want out. I know all I hear from her when I try to talk to her is how I don't make enough money, how I don't do this, do that...ad nauseum.
> 
> Does she know? Well, she knows I'm miserable and bored. I told her that most recently last night.
> 
> Does she know I'm attracted to her? She does, but it doesn't matter to her.


Would the both of you make it financially if you divorced?

Many people stay married because they can't make it financially on their own. 

I have a friend who separated recently. They lived paycheck to paycheck for years, like most people. So, after 6 months of living apart, they became more in debt, so the husband moved back in... They both hate it but they don't have many other options...

My wife and I are in that position. I earn good money but my wife has a way to go before she can even come close to being independent, even with child support and alimony. It wouldn't be enough for her...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Here's the thing your wife needs to understand. It's the cold, hard, unadulterated truth from what I'm hearing.

#1 You are not happy because your wife isn't having sex or being affectionate with you. Unhappy enough to contemplate leaving this marriage.

#2 There are many women that would line up to take her place and be happy with half of what she has now. And also be happy to sex you up and give you affection.

#3 If you leave, she will be left with half of what she has now. If money is what matters, what would make sense for her is to come to an equitable agreement to keep you in her life. Like have sex with you and show affection for you.

What is not going to happen is:
#4 She keeps getting the benefit of having you in her life (money, security, whatnot) while not contributing to this marriage.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Trickster said:


> Would the both of you make it financially if you divorced?
> 
> Many people stay married because they can't make it financially on their own.
> 
> ...


SO?? Thats HER problem to work out.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Trickster said:


> Would the both of you make it financially if you divorced?
> 
> Many people stay married because they can't make it financially on their own.


Unless we sold the house we wouldn't. That's one of the reasons I haven't filed, as I wouldn't be able to afford a place to live. I'd be the one getting alimony in this case.




> I have a friend who separated recently. They lived paycheck to paycheck for years, like most people. So, after 6 months of living apart, they became more in debt, so the husband moved back in... They both hate it but they don't have many other options...
> 
> My wife and I are in that position. I earn good money but my wife has a way to go before she can even come close to being independent, even with child support and alimony. It wouldn't be enough for her...


I alluded to this in earlier posts, that it would be really hard to divorce for financial reasons, and hard to live together in the same place while going through that hellish process.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

marduk said:


> Here's the thing your wife needs to understand. It's the cold, hard, unadulterated truth from what I'm hearing.
> 
> #1 You are not happy because your wife isn't having sex or being affectionate with you. Unhappy enough to contemplate leaving this marriage.


Truth.



> #2 There are many women that would line up to take her place and be happy with half of what she has now. And also be happy to sex you up and give you affection.


I'd like to believe that. 



> #3 If you leave, she will be left with half of what she has now. If money is what matters, what would make sense for her is to come to an equitable agreement to keep you in her life. Like have sex with you and show affection for you.


She doesn't want to admit any of this. 



> What is not going to happen is:
> #4 She keeps getting the benefit of having you in her life (money, security, whatnot) while not contributing to this marriage.


Eventually this thing is gonna be over............


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

ElCanario said:


> > #3 If you leave, she will be left with half of what she has now. If money is what matters, what would make sense for her is to come to an equitable agreement to keep you in her life. Like have sex with you and show affection for you.
> 
> 
> She doesn't want to admit any of this.



This is math.

If you jointly have $10, then divorce, each of you will have less than $10. Whether that $10 is split with each getting $5, or one getting $6 and one getting $4, or whatever, it still ends up adding up to $10.

Minus legal fees of course.

She has access to $10 today. Plus she has access to all that you do for her today.

Math says she would have less than $10 after a divorce.

Natural consequences say she will no longer have access to all that you do for her after a divorce.

You need to plainly say that in whatever way you think is best. Along with the fact that the current situation is an unreasonable expectation for you to continue living in.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

marduk said:


> This is math.
> 
> If you jointly have $10, then divorce, each of you will have less than $10. Whether that $10 is split with each getting $5, or one getting $6 and one getting $4, or whatever, it still ends up adding up to $10.
> 
> ...




Does she make more than you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

tennisstar said:


> Does she make more than you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yup. She has a successful business that I helped her build.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

Oh well, I didn't catch that. I think she looks down at you - she makes more..it makes sense to me now. No woman us going to sleep with a man she doesn't respect. 

Can you regain her respect? Probably not at this point. I think the more you cling to thus marriage, the less she respects you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

a


tennisstar said:


> Oh well, I didn't catch that. I think she looks down at you - she makes more..it makes sense to me now. No woman us going to sleep with a man she doesn't respect.
> 
> Can you regain her respect? Probably not at this point. I think the more you cling to thus marriage, the less she respects you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she looks down on me, that speaks to her character, not mine. She has no reason to not respect me.

I'll tell you this - I'll remember that come divorce time. She already knows I got alimony coming. And she knows that I know.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm not saying it us right or wrong - but it is often what happens when a woman makes more than a man. And you holding alimony over her head just will make her respect you less.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

tennisstar said:


> I'm not saying it us right or wrong - but it is often what happens when a woman makes more than a man.And you holding alimony over her head just will make her respect you less.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I really don't give a rat's ass at this point. Do women who make less than their husbands get disrespected? How about women who hold alimony over their husbands' heads? 

That is just a sexist way to look at things - not saying you are sexist, just that women who think that way are. BTW, I'm not holding alimony over her head - until she tries to tell me she's not giving me any money - then I tell her it's not her decision and in this state the formula is the formula.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

ElCanario said:


> I really don't give a rat's ass at this point. Do women who make less than their husbands get disrespected? How about women who hold alimony over their husbands' heads?
> 
> That is just a sexist way to look at things - not saying you are sexist, just that women who think that way are. BTW, I'm not holding alimony over her head - until she tries to tell me she's not giving me any money - then I tell her it's not her decision and in this state the formula is the formula.


Like it or lump it man, I've seen it happen.

I have a buddy who's wife makes a crapload more than him. And her respect for him has gone down, down, down... to pretty much zero.

And he's pretty much become dirt beneath her feet, or a ball chained to her leg.

I'm not saying this is what's happening with you. But it's possible, and I guess what I'm asking is could this be part of it?


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

marduk said:


> Like it or lump it man, I've seen it happen.
> 
> I have a buddy who's wife makes a crapload more than him. And her respect for him has gone down, down, down... to pretty much zero.
> 
> ...


I'm sure it is........but that doesn't matter. It shouldn't be part of it.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm not trying to be sexist. I'm just trying to explain what might be going on. Think about it, you say you are not good with women, you make less than her...how do you think she views you? I'm telling you shed viewing you as beneath her, thus, the disrespect. You can say you don't care, but if you care about your marriage, you will see what's going on. 

I'm not trying to pit you down, rather, I'm trying to explain what could be going on in your marriage. You have said she says you don't make enough. Think about it....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

tennisstar said:


> I'm not trying to be sexist. I'm just trying to explain what might be going on. Think about it, you say you are not good with women, you make less than her...how do you think she views you? I'm telling you shed viewing you as beneath her, thus, the disrespect. You can say you don't care, but if you care about your marriage, you will see what's going on.
> 
> I'm not trying to pit you down, rather, I'm trying to explain what could be going on in your marriage. You have said she says you don't make enough. Think about it....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think about it, but I still don't see why that should be the case. If she wanted a millionaire, she should have married one.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

Women often like successful men, while men often concentrate on looks. Yes, there are exceptions. But I have seen several threads on here talking about this. I doubt she wants a millionaire, but she probably wants a successful husband. And successful, especially in the US, is money. 

Now if you were a hot young guy with loads of charisma, she might overlook this. But you haven't described yourself as such. 

I think you need to look at things that make you more manly, more worthy, in her mind, of your respect. Things like working out, talking to women and having them think more of you, dressing well, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

tennisstar said:


> Women often like successful men, while men often concentrate on looks. Yes, there are exceptions. But I have seen several threads on here talking about this. I doubt she wants a millionaire, but she probably wants a successful husband. And successful, especially in the US, is money.
> 
> Now if you were a hot young guy with loads of charisma, she might overlook this. But you haven't described yourself as such.
> 
> ...


I think that is simplistic. Through the time we have been married, I have raised the son she had at 14 and sent him to one of the best private schools in the country. She spent an entire year in paradise - on me, not having to work. I put her through college and helped her establish her business. My Ivy League connections have helped her socially and financially. She has had experiences she never would have had had she not met me.

Her father was absentee, her stepfather abused her and her mom had a parade of boyfriends in and out of the house. I worked one, two or three jobs and never spent one night, outside business trips, outside the home. I am stable and reliable and dependable like no other man she has been around. I am a father. I am on this Earth to raise my children and put values into them. I am here to educate and protect them - and her - and I have done a damn good job of it.

I am a real Goddamn man - not some flamboyant, pompadour-wearing street hustler/pimp. Anyone who thinks the latter is successful has a juvenile, suspect notion of what a real man is. A real man is tough and strong mentally - he doesn't fall for BS and is principled. He is also caring and compassionate and tender. 

I am all of the above.

But after the turn of the last century, I lost what was kind of a high-profile job and a lot of income with it. Meanwhile, after she had our youngest, because I was out of work I stayed home and took care of the boys. She built her business while I stayed home during the day, cooked and took care of the boys. Then I would work either online or several overnight gigs. But because I wasn't bringing in the same amount of loot as before, suddenly I am lesser than her and less of a man?




It's just a case of "What have you done for me lately" - and I'm not having that. 


If she does not appreciate me as a man..............I will go out and find me someone who does.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Not every woman would react the way your wife has to the situation but many would. Especially the SAHD part of it. Some women are fine with that but not all of them. And your wife apparently lost respect for you when your circumstances changed. Again, not every woman would do that but the traditional male role as a strong provider is still very important to many. And when that breaks down, often the marriage breaks down as well. 

You've said your decision is to wait it out until your children are older. Hopefully, you can get through it.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> Don't want to lose the kids, don't want to go through the hell of a divorce. I mean, we know that the divorce will eventually happen, but trying to prolong it until the kids are out of the house - about 5 years. I don't think we'll last that long.


You're already in hell - yes, a divorce is painful and stressful, but so is your marriage. Staying together strictly for the kids does nobody any favors. I was a child of divorce - I was fine when my parents split. Yes, it was hard at first, but I adjusted. My kids are far happier now that we've split and my relationship with them is stronger.

Kids don't thrive in a stressed out, loveless, tension filled house. Kids are better off being with each parent on their own, happy.

Don't have an affair - an affair is the worst possible road to take. It will cause the most amount of pain for everyone and you will lose ALL of your integrity and dignity.

Man up and end your miserable marriage. It's inevitable. Life's too short to carry on in misery - but end the misery with dignity and integrity. You aren't doing anyone any favors by forcing yourself to keep this sham of a marriage together.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Don't know if this was mentioned earlier in the thread - but is it possible your wife has had/is having an affair?


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Healer said:


> Don't know if this was mentioned earlier in the thread - but is it possible your wife has had/is having an affair?


I would say yes, it is possible.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

Again, not pitting you down. I'm sure you're a good man. But your wife doesn't seem to care about that. And I really think part of it is because you list your better paying job. You might see everything else you're doing, but apparently she doesn't see it that way or care. 

You say you'll find someone who will appreciate you. I think that would be the best thing. You and your wife are miserable. Move on. Stop the misery. If your wife suggested an open marriage, it is likely she has had or is having an affair. If she wanted you at all, she would never have suggested that. 

Your marriage is over. So move on with your life. Stop putting you, your wife and your kids through this. You live your children, bit you think it is ok for them to live in hell. That's not right. Yes the divorce will be hard, but there is life on the other side.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

ElCanario said:


> I'm sure it is........but that doesn't matter. It shouldn't be part of it.


Shouldn't, couldn't, wouldn't, none of that **** matters.

You can't rationalize attraction. You can't romance attraction. You can't logic attraction.

Attraction is what it is.

For many women, perceiving their man as a lower status in some way than themselves is a turn-off.

One that they might not even realize.

We are the product of 4.5 billion years of evolution. Our modern neocortex is 100,000-250,000 years old. Our conception of monogamous pair bonding for life is even shorter than that.

Evolution and biology will usually win. It's got a big head start.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

tennisstar said:


> Again, not pitting you down. I'm sure you're a good man. But your wife doesn't seem to care about that. And I really think part of it is because you list your better paying job. You might see everything else you're doing, but apparently she doesn't see it that way or care.


Again, that speaks to her character. I told her a few days ago that she only loves/loved me when I have/had money. 



> You say you'll find someone who will appreciate you. I think that would be the best thing.


I say it - I hope it will actually happen.




> You and your wife are miserable. Move on. Stop the misery. If your wife suggested an open marriage, it is likely she has had or is having an affair. If she wanted you at all, she would never have suggested that.
> 
> Your marriage is over. So move on with your life. Stop putting you, your wife and your kids through this. You live your children, bit you think it is ok for them to live in hell. That's not right. Yes the divorce will be hard, but there is life on the other side.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Am I putting us all through this, or are we putting us all through this? I asked my older boy if he would rather see us together in strife hell or divorced, and he said he still wanted to see us together.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Children of divorce : Psychological, psychiatric problems and suicide


The link above are the stats of many study's of divorce and the effect it has on children. Not all that encouraging. I know everybody who divorces will do all they can to convince themself that divorce is the best solution. We all want to be right.


It is just a study. It reveals in low conflict marriages, the children do much better.

Divorce Statistics and Studies Blog: Remarriage after divorce drops 40% in 20 years, cohabitation doubles, both still breakup-prone, hard on kids


In the link above, many people who divorce are not getting remarried. If the parents fight before divorce, they usually continue to fight. Sometimes much worse.

Just another study though...

Elcanario-

Its hard to stay in a marriage without love...without romantic love..without intimacy...without sex. I understand that. It may seem crazy to stay if you are miserable...

For me... I may stick it out for a while longer... I have outlets now. I have hobby's. I have interest. I exercise and stay in shape. I no longer need affection from my wife.

What are we teaching our children, my daughter, when we stay in an unhappy marriage? 

Marriage is a contract. It may not be till death do us part or for better or for worse, but it is a contract until the kids are raised and gone. Its the parents responsibility to keep the peace. The children will realize that when they get married, it is serious and something they need to really think about before that happens and before they want to bring kids into this world. 

The link also states that the divorce rates are dropping. That is because people are cohabitating and the ones who marry later in life tend to stay married longer...

I know there are many study's that may contradict that...

Elcanario

If you want to stick it out until your kids are gone, that is your choice...I tell my wife that I want her to be independent when our daughter turns 18. If we stay married until then, she has the chance to go back to school to get to that point. We have 22 years together. I wouldn't kick her to the curb. She has to earn more than $9/hr. She has 4 years of college.

You need to work on your future as well to be 100% independent when your kids leave.

Work on finding your inner happiness... Its your future.

You can do it.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

just skimmed through this thread. It screams of MMSLP, she disrespects you because you are not doing the male stereotypical stuff, mainly by being a SAHD.

I really think you need to get back into the workforce and come up with ways to increase your rank with your wife. Also, verify, subtly, if there is any chance she is having an affair. 

I think your no D stance is prudent, but there are things you can do for you that may help. You can't nice her to sex.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> just skimmed through this thread. It screams of MMSLP, she disrespects you because you are not doing the male stereotypical stuff, mainly by being a SAHD.


MMSLP?

I was a SAHD only for a couple years, and even then I worked part-time.



> I really think you need to get back into the workforce and come up with ways to increase your rank with your wife. Also, verify, subtly, if there is any chance she is having an affair.



I have ALWAYS been in the workforce. Underemployed at some points, but always working. I have been working full time for the past 3 years running - for 1 1/2 years I had 2 full-time jobs (7-3, 4-12) and one part-time job. 

I do suspect that she has had sex with other men, if not a full-blown affair. But I have kind of stayed away from that - I am not the kind of guy who takes that kind of disrespect lightly. 



> I think your no D stance is prudent, but there are things you can do for you that may help. You can't nice her to sex.


This I know. If I knew what I could do otherwise, I certainly would do it.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Why on earth are you tolerating her having an affair? If you suspect and don't even snoop, she is losing respect for you continuously. Especially since she probably thinks you already know or suspect. You are showing severe signs of being a doormat. sorry for the 2x4. 

MMSLP - married mans sex life primer. Read it, like yesterday.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

Doesn't sound like we can offer anything else then. You feel she has a character issue and you deserve her respect. You plan to stay with her until the kids grow up. Okay. Well then there isn't anything else we can offer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> Why on earth are you tolerating her having an affair?


I'm not sure she is. If I snooped and found out she was, I cannot predict what would happen. This is why I don't go near that thought.


> If you suspect and don't even snoop, she is losing respect for you continuously. Especially since she probably thinks you already know or suspect. You are showing severe signs of being a doormat. sorry for the 2x4.


Rather a doormat than someone I would rather not think of being.



> MMSLP - married mans sex life primer. Read it, like yesterday.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

tennisstar said:


> Doesn't sound like we can offer anything else then. You feel she has a character issue and you deserve her respect. You plan to stay with her until the kids grow up. Okay. Well then there isn't anything else we can offer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, who knows? I might file for divorce before you know it.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

All I have to say is wow. If your W actually read what you just wrote, she would have lost any respect for you that she still may have. If I get to where you are at, God help me. I have too much self respect to have a cheating W, no sex life and a crappy M.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> All I have to say is wow. If your W actually read what you just wrote, she would have lost any respect for you that she still may have. If I get to where you are at, God help me. I have too much self respect to have a cheating W, no sex life and a crappy M.


So what would you do then? Please tell me what steps you would take if you were in the situation you described.

I know you're not trying to bait me, so I won't let you. Despite how things look, I am quite secure in myself. I am dismayed that my wife may not respect me, but I will get over it, because I know I am a worthy, respectable human being.

As I said, I know what could possibly happen to her and her "paramour" if I found out, so I think we're all better off not having confirmation of anything.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

ElCanario said:


> I'm not sure she is. If I snooped and found out she was, I cannot predict what would happen. This is why I don't go near that thought.
> 
> 
> Rather a doormat than someone I would rather not think of being.


So you are PROUD being a doormat?? :scratchhead: And you would rather live with your head in the sand than verify your wife's cheating? 

You two are the poster children FOR divorce.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> So you are PROUD being a doormat?? :scratchhead: And you would rather live with your head in the sand than verify your wife's cheating?


Beats the alternative. Google the name "Jonathan Nyce." Ironic, as you will see. I don't want to end up like that guy.



> You two are the poster children FOR divorce. :


Yeah............


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

intheory said:


> "Ignorance is bliss", huh?
> 
> Sometimes, I think that is true.
> 
> *But*, that means you are sitting on a powder keg of suspicion and sexual frustration.


Yes.



> I hope you get lots of physical exercise to drain some of that suppressed emotion and energy.


I used to, not so much anymore.



> If you ever resume sexual relations with her; be sure to wear a condom.


Probably not gonna happen, so no need. If I get condoms they'll be for the next one, if there ever is a next one.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> The whole time I'm holding this lady, I'm thinking to myself, "man, you are one lucky SOB." I guess I just feel that it's such a crapshoot that I will meet someone like her again. She was truly - just from looks, anyway, the girl of my dreams.
> 
> I know all kinds of women I like and find very attractive, but they have to like me too. And the ones I sense may like me all seem to be taken. I'm also much older and not very good-looking (not that I was good-looking when young, either).
> 
> ...


Some that might hit into your mind and body might not be super well put together on the outside, personality, actions and motives matter much!

Most of looks is done to tip the scales where they think they are supposed to get free x,y and z because of that, not a healthy dynamic.

This guy drew up a chart of the sexy beauties and had this very small 1% called "unicorns". They were finer than the well put together and good and wholesome ladies who treat someone like they want to be treated. He said they really dont exist but if you find one you gotta hold on. Most of the well put together ones on the outside will entitle themself into area's over you and minimize you and your personal power.

That's why they say a "pretty" one will make you feel "small", much of her mojo comes from being "better" than a majority of the men she comes across, and you better betcha she will enforce those rules.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I guess I would have more self respect: to not risk my life to potential STDs, to not have a partner disown their marriage vows, etc. If blinders work for you, I guess ok, but they would not work for me.

My steps: MMSLP - read and implement. Do enough of a search to prove or disprove infedility, get my crap together to potentially D if there is an affair. I see why you don't want to D, but sexless w/a cheating W would be way too much for me. Just a cheating W is too much for me.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Some that might hit into your mind and body might not be super well put together on the outside, personality, actions and motives matter much!
> 
> Most of looks is done to tip the scales where they think they are supposed to get free x,y and z because of that, not a healthy dynamic.


Well, this lady wasn't a traditional "10" by any means. She was probably a bit too heavy or "voluptuous" for lots of guys. It's just that she turned ME on more than any other woman had. My buddy who was with me didn't seem to think she was that attractive at all....which was great for me. 



> This guy drew up a chart of the sexy beauties and had this very small 1% called "unicorns". They were finer than the well put together and good and wholesome ladies who treat someone like they want to be treated. He said they really dont exist but if you find one you gotta hold on. Most of the well put together ones on the outside will entitle themself into area's over you and minimize you and your personal power.
> 
> That's why they say a "pretty" one will make you feel "small", much of her mojo comes from being "better" than a majority of the men she comes across, and you better betcha she will enforce those rules.


I'm not looking for someone who is pretty or beautiful, though I won't turn those qualities away. I am looking for someone who is sweet, kind and compassionate. That, plus intelligence, I find extraordinarily sexy.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

ok, man. With deepest respect to you, your family, and the pain you are going through...

What do you want?

What does success look like?

An amicable divorce that leaves you both happy?

A marriage that is OK enough for you both to stand it?

A great marriage?

What are you aiming for here?


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

marduk said:


> ok, man. With deepest respect to you, your family, and the pain you are going through...
> 
> What do you want?
> 
> ...


What I really want is a great marriage, with someone with whom I could grow old and enjoy our grandchildren. I thought that is what would happen, but it seems like that is pretty much impossible now. 

So since that's pretty much off the table, I guess the other alternative would be an amicable divorce that leaves us both happy. But that doesn't seem possible either.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

ElCanario said:


> What I really want is a great marriage, with someone with whom I could grow old and enjoy our grandchildren. I thought that is what would happen, but it seems like that is pretty much impossible now.
> 
> So since that's pretty much off the table, I guess the other alternative would be an amicable divorce that leaves us both happy. But that doesn't seem possible either.


If it were back on the table would you take it?

Or are you done?


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

marduk said:


> If it were back on the table would you take it?
> 
> Or are you done?


If the marriage could be saved? I don't think there's any way that could ever happen. We'd have to go back in time and erase all memories.

Since that can't be done, I guess I'm done.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

ElCanario said:


> If the marriage could be saved? I don't think there's any way that could ever happen. We'd have to go back in time and erase all memories.
> 
> Since that can't be done, I guess I'm done.


OK, so the hard decision is made. Now you need to make that happen.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

OP, I haven't read the whole thread, but to answer your question about an affair, don't do it. A little bit of fleeting pleasure will complicate your life immensely. I'm married to a woman that I don't really care for (been mentioned in other threads regarding why), and our sex life is nonexistent. That said, haven't even given any thought to an affair. You don't need those kind of headaches. 

Bases on what I've read about your situation, I do feel for you. My dad always said the two worst things were to be unhappy in your job and unhappy in your marriage. I've had both (not at the same time).


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

ChargingCharlie said:


> OP, I haven't read the whole thread, but to answer your question about an affair, don't do it. A little bit of fleeting pleasure will complicate your life immensely. I'm married to a woman that I don't really care for (been mentioned in other threads regarding why), and our sex life is nonexistent. That said, haven't even given any thought to an affair. You don't need those kind of headaches.
> 
> Bases on what I've read about your situation, I do feel for you. My dad always said the two worst things were to be unhappy in your job and unhappy in your marriage. I've had both (not at the same time).


I just got turned down for two promotions, so I'm not happy on the job either. But the good thing is I feel I can improve that situation, either by picking up more work or by finding another job. I dunno how I'm going to improve the marriage (or how I'm gonna get through the hell of divorce).


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

I think in your instance, she'll welcome a divorce. It won't be he'll at all.

She'd probably be MORE than amicable about it.

It's YOU who would start fighting and all the crappy behavior associated with a nasty divorce.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> I just got turned down for two promotions, so I'm not happy on the job either. But the good thing is I feel I can improve that situation, either by picking up more work or by finding another job. I dunno how I'm going to improve the marriage (or how I'm gonna get through the hell of divorce).


You'll get through your divorce, you'll find a new lover, you will refind your self respect and you will never tolerate a bad relationship again.


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Revamped said:


> I think in your instance, she'll welcome a divorce. It won't be he'll at all.
> 
> She'd probably be MORE than amicable about it.


Really? What makes you say that?



> It's YOU who would start fighting and all the crappy behavior associated with a nasty divorce.



Really? What makes you say _that_?

You obviously don't know her. :scratchhead:


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> Really? What makes you say that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you know when you sign out her competitive side will try to beat you up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

treyvion said:


> So you know when you sign out her competitive side will try to beat you up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yup.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ElCanario said:


> Yup.



so you gotta build up your strength and plan your escape. They will pull anything on you to "win".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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