# If you have to ask



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I recently described my relationship as an uncommitted marriage. We live together, we are in the habit of marriage, but there is no longer any desire to attend to the emotional needs of each other. 
Way back in February I planned a vacation for us in April, Then the world went into quarantine and the only good news was that the airlines have been pretty open to changing plans. We naively thought that we could fly to texas in September, because by then summer storms would be gone and virus under control. So anyhow, last week we were changing plans again. We picked a state with very low virus numbers and tried to set up a flight. As the prices climbed and the availability dropped I made one more call to DW and asked, " am I just trying to make something work that you have no real interest in?" Because at that point I couldn't have cared less whether we went or stayed. 
Today, I'm thinking, if you have to ask your partner if they really want to go on a vacation with you, are you asking the right question? (aside: she did answer the question quickly that she did indeed want to vacation with me) 
I know we are a mess. I know the relationship isn't viable. But it's worse than I thought. Yesterday I started working on a vacation for next spring. I'm shopping for equipment to do a solo kayak camping trip. Should I even ask? 
Gadzooks! (word of the day) I'm a complete mess.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Have you asked her why are we still together ? or what is keeping us together ?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Sheer inertia has been my answer. I'm pretty sure I haven't asked in at least 3 years. Last reply I recall was that she still gets butterflies. weird, you wouldn't know it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I think over time, it’s easy for both people to get complacent and fall into habit and inertia. 

Sometimes you have to come right out and ask because otherwise everything is left up to guess and conjecture. 

You asked and she replied in the affirmative.

Whether she really meant it or not is a whole other topic, but at least you asked instead of making assumptions.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

@Mr. Nail - I think it's a great idea to take a solo vacation. I did that when my husband's alcoholism made any type of trip with him completely unenjoyable. I went to the Grand Canyon alone and had a wonderful time. 

The thing is, if it ain't working why not just go solo completely? Life is too damn short to waste it on a dead relationship. Seriously.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Prodigal said:


> @Mr. Nail - I think it's a great idea to take a solo vacation. I did that when my husband's alcoholism made any type of trip with him completely unenjoyable. I went to the Grand Canyon alone and had a wonderful time.
> 
> The thing is, if it ain't working why not just go solo completely? Life is too damn short to waste it on a dead relationship. Seriously.





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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Your wife certainly doesn’t act as if she still gets butterflies. I think she tells you what she thinks you want to hear. Why? For whatever reason, she doesn’t want a divorce.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

@Mr. Nail - I wonder why you keep posting. Is it just to vent? Because from where I'm sitting you and your wife don't have a marriage. Why stay? Because if you are going to stay, then I suggest you stop whining about your situation. Stay and suck it up. Or leave and get on with your life. Sorry for being so blunt, but I honestly fail to see the point of remaining in ANY relationship that is unfulfilling and unrewarding. But for those of you who decide to stay, well, just learn to live with your decision.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Prodigal said:


> @Mr. Nail - I wonder why you keep posting. Is it just to vent? Because from where I'm sitting you and your wife don't have a marriage. Why stay? Because if you are going to stay, then I suggest you stop whining about your situation. Stay and suck it up. Or leave and get on with your life. Sorry for being so blunt, but I honestly fail to see the point of remaining in ANY relationship that is unfulfilling and unrewarding. But for those of you who decide to stay, well, just learn to live with your decision.


Fair question really. I was a bit down today and needed to bounce the idea around a bit. I appreciate your thoughts on the solo vacation. I used to get a few hours of contemplation every year at ordeal. I haven't been to one for too long. I think that's the push right now. I've read about three places today that you only have so much life and staying in a poor relationship is wasting it. You are right of course, but yet. I'm in no condition to start another. Probably never will be.
On the plus side, we are going to knock a couple of things off the bucket list this trip. A Sunday drive in the white mountains, and eating a lobster. Well maybe eating a lobster, I've never thought they looked that good. 
I'm going to keep hacking at the solo vacation. I might even sneak in something this year. Just for reflection and meditation.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> you only have so much life and staying in a poor relationship is wasting it. You are right of course, but yet. I'm in no condition to start another. Probably never will be.


No need to start another relationship. Why not consider having a fulfilling relationship with yourself? When my husband died in January '15, a coworker asked me if I would ever consider dating again. That's a hard no. I have a relationship with myself and with the life I choose to lead.

Too many people stay stuck because they think they need a relationship with someone else to survive. I'm living proof that anyone can enjoy living just for the sake of living, and doing it alone.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I don't really know your story, Mr. Nail... when you say you have an "uncommitted marriage", what does that mean? Yes, no tending to the emotional needs, but what about a sexual relationship? Do you still have that? Why are you still together?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm shopping for equipment to do a solo kayak camping trip.


Here is a question... If you enjoy going on a solo kayak camping trip and had a really great time, who would be the first person you would want to tell the story to about your trip? 

My wife and I take separate trips often. She flies overseas with the kids and will spend a month or two with her parents. Meanwhile I stay home mostly to work but also go hiking and camping with my brothers over the weekend. We once chartered a boat to go deep sea fishing. Once my wife and I are back together we often have tons of fun stories to share, most of which we have already talked about each night over the phone. Sometimes my wife might even order something inappropriate for me from Amazon while she is overseas and then encourage me to think about her once the package arrives. 

Desire sometimes needs distance in order to thrive. 

It is even perfectly OK to talk about how you might even enjoy some time apart. Especially if you hope it might help when you finally get back together. 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Thanks for continuing replies. Here are some quick answers.


Prodigal said:


> Why not consider having a fulfilling relationship with yourself?


I'm an extrovert personality, which means that I get energy from interacting with others. As an extrovert living with two introverts I pretty much know how that would work out. Trust me, at least for appearances it's better to have a beard.



In Absentia said:


> but what about a sexual relationship? Do you still have that?


About every 12 days. fair enthusiasm and participation. Everyone gets their cookie.



badsanta said:


> ere is a question... If you enjoy going on a solo kayak camping trip and had a really great time, who would be the first person you would want to tell the story to about your trip?


I usually get in trouble for not bringing pictures.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> About every 12 days. fair enthusiasm and participation. Everyone gets their cookie.


That's your glue... our marriage was pretty much dying, but it's dead and buried now that we don't have a sexual relationship... pretty sad, but I was blind. BTW, I understand why you are staying...


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

This is a mystery to me.

I don't understand how you can look at one another and get excited, knowing the state of your relationship. I genuinely don't get where that comes from.



Mr. Nail said:


> About every 12 days. fair enthusiasm and participation. Everyone gets their cookie.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> I usually get in trouble for not bringing pictures.


Sounds like a great excuse to buy a modern DSLR and a new telephoto lens for some wildlife photography. Canon just started making economical 800mm stabilized glass for the RF mount! 


__
https://flic.kr/p/2juztpy


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

minimalME said:


> This is a mystery to me.
> 
> I don't understand how you can look at one another and get excited, knowing the state of your relationship. I genuinely don't get where that comes from.


I can understand... we had a terrible relationship, but I was quite happy to have sex with my wife. I still fancied her. Maybe this is men for you...


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Maybe so. It's certainly not me. 😬 



In Absentia said:


> Maybe this is men for you...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr. Nail said:


> Sheer inertia has been my answer. I'm pretty sure I haven't asked in at least 3 years. Last reply I recall was that she still gets butterflies. weird, you wouldn't know it.


Sounds like a great opening to have a real conversation...maybe describe His Needs Her Needs and ask her where she sees herself in that.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> That's your glue... our marriage was pretty much dying, but it's dead and buried now that we don't have a sexual relationship... pretty sad, but I was blind. BTW, I understand why you are staying...


This. I'm still married because there was a line drawn in the sand at the beginning of everything. Not positive whether it delays the inevitable, denies the truth, or allows time to work things out.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I think it’s hard for a partner to answer with the truth, when the truth would be unsettling to either party, and especially if the truth might demand action and change.

The best I’ve been able to do is ask the questions, and go out of my way to make it safe for her to answer as honestly as she can. And, to follow up later to see if the answers change and reveal more, as we become more comfortable with hearing the truth. YMMV.

For me, there is value in asking. I’ve needed the answers (or lack thereof) if for no other reason than to help me disconnect. Had the answers been different, then I suppose the value would have been to inform and inspire attempts to reconnect.

Im curious... Your wife’s interest or non-interest in a shared vacation seems to matter to you, but maybe you don’t seem comforted by her answer that she is interested in having one. Is shared experiences/quality time together high on your love language list? Or, is your ambivalence towards a vacation with her what worries you? That no matter what her response is, the really difficult part is it doesn’t matter — that your feelings are not positive towards her and your relationship right now, and that is an uncomfortable thought?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> Today, I'm thinking, if you have to ask your partner if they really want to go on a vacation with you, are you asking the right question? (aside: she did answer the question quickly that she did indeed want to vacation with me)
> I know we are a mess. I know the relationship isn't viable. But it's worse than I thought.


For me, the right question to my wife lately cuts to the core, and has been: “have you any interest in rebuilding and having a romantic loving relationship with me, or do you just want to be friends?”

Some questions can’t be unasked once spoken, nor can their answers be unheard (even if the answer is just silence).

I’d guess had she and I thought about that question through the years, our answers would have progressed like this:

“Yes! I love sharing this part of life with you”,
“not as much as before, but I miss how we were and want to find our way back, let’s work on it together!”,
“I’m not happy either and suppose maybe I’ll lift a finger if you want to try to fix this thing, but you first”,
“Yeah, that’s a problem. Can’t you see I’m unhappy?”
“nope, and I don’t care to make a change, in fact I’d prefer not”.
Does any of that sound familiar? I suppose recovering a healthy relationship is possible, up until one partner hits “4”, but pretty unlikely by “3”.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Sorry to catch up all at once. It is going to be a busy weekend. I'm going kayaking with Son and DIL. and the property lawn needs mowing. Movies are opening up. 


minimalME said:


> This is a mystery to me.
> I don't understand how you can look at one another and get excited, knowing the state of your relationship. I genuinely don't get where that comes from.





In Absentia said:


> I can understand... we had a terrible relationship, but I was quite happy to have sex with my wife. I still fancied her. Maybe this is men for you...


Whether it's men, or just long term comfort, I don't know. Honestly, I'm Demisexual. I need emotional connection to feel sexual attraction. So sex is a bit of a performance. I wouldn't say it makes me feel like a prostitute. More of like I need to pretend a lot. If it's the glue holding us together, there isn't much glue.


turnera said:


> Sounds like a great opening to have a real conversation...maybe describe His Needs Her Needs and ask her where she sees herself in that.


Actually we had that discussion. I would say that it was the beginning of the end. Her reply was "stop pushing me" which means "you will accept what I offer when I offer it". And with terms like that you don't get many offers.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Camera? not for the places I go. too dirty too wet I'd spend too much time packing and unpacking it.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

@PieceOfSky Very thought provoking. I guess that in order to risk the question, I had to stop caring about the answer. 
I think I just graduated to a level 4 response A "so you finally noticed that this died last year." 
Her answer is (by inference) "I'm too busy with this other stuff to worry about that" is that a level 3 or a level 5?
At level three my thinking was and is, "The possible return just isn't worth the effort" Going back to that don't push me thing. I'm effectively out of the drivers seat, and just waiting for a good stop.
Sorry I typed really fast without good sentence structure.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Mr. Nail said:


> @PieceOfSky Very thought provoking. I guess that in order to risk the question, I had to stop caring about the answer.
> I think I just graduated to a level 4 response A "so you finally noticed that this died last year."
> Her answer is (by inference) "I'm too busy with this other stuff to worry about that" is that a level 3 or a level 5?
> At level three my thinking was and is, "The possible return just isn't worth the effort" Going back to that don't push me thing. I'm effectively out of the drivers seat, and just waiting for a good stop.
> Sorry I typed really fast without good sentence structure.


So it’s only once you have committed to separation that you’d feel ready to talk about the relationship? It makes sense when you know that talking about it would mean you couldn’t pretend anymore. It’d all be out in the open and you would probably have to do something. On the other side of it, you are just sitting there watching the relationship circle the drain, saying you’ll do something once it’s all gone.

When both people are staying because they can’t stand the thought of being single (I assume this is probably her reason for staying too), I have to wonder how much they feel they are bringing to the relationship table. You are basically saying that on your own you have no worth and would have no life. Not particularly attractive to a partner.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I don't understand your reason for staying. It sounds like slowing down to look at a fatal car accident. What's the point?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Prodigal said:


> I don't understand your reason for staying. It sounds like slowing down to look at a fatal car accident. What's the point?


Because you married for a reason, and it's hard to give up on hope. Plus, disinterest or lack of passion sometimes amplifies the "friendship" aspect, and going through life without that friend... that can like something hard to let go of. Much easier if there was infidelity or deception or malicious intent.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Prodigal said:


> I don't understand your reason for staying. It sounds like slowing down to look at a fatal car accident. What's the point?


My guess is that fear of the unknown keeps most in dysfunctional marriages. Maybe they hope they’ll be the one to survive (and still be healthy enough to enjoy life) or maybe they don’t even think that far ahead and just focus on getting through today. I lived that way for decades. It’s a tough life and I don’t recommend it.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> Because you married for a reason, and it's hard to give up on hope.


It's difficult to imagine your life without a person you've spent decades with... and it's true: it's even worse if there is no affair, deceit... you have just become friends. I have given up on hope, especially after reading a few pages my wife wrote a few weeks ago. I can see I am the last of her problems, unfortunately. I feel guilty for my failures and because I wasn't able to help her. I was selfish in my own way. I could not deal with my own issues. But it's too late now. 
And it's also true you stay for fear of the unknown. It's habit. Hell, I was 22...


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Mr. Nail said:


> Her reply was "stop pushing me" which means "you will accept what I offer when I offer it".


That's interesting. To me, that answer "stop pushing" would mean something like "I hear that you are dissatisfied, and I feel fear that I might not be able to meet your needs, I fear that I have failed". 

(Note: I base this reply on this thread only, I haven't looked up your other threads).


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Having concerns for one's own health will factor into one's decision to stay or go. He may not be happy; but, he will have help when the need arises if he stays.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Casual Observer said:


> ... disinterest or lack of passion sometimes amplifies the "friendship" aspect, and going through life without that friend... that can like something hard to let go of.


No excuse. Uh, no. Just. No. Disinterest amplifies friendship? I treat my friends a helluva lot better than many married folks treat one another from what I've read on TAM. At least I show respect and interest when it comes to the people in my life. So staying married to someone for whom you have little or no interest just so you can stay stuck with familiar, or staying because you want someone to hold your hand as you take your last breath ... okay. But I sure don't get it.

And don't count on an indifferent spouse/partner to turn into Mother Teresa when you get ill. I speak from experience.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Prodigal said:


> And don't count on an indifferent spouse/partner to turn into Mother Teresa when you get ill. I speak from experience.


That’s very true. I just heard of an older couple with grown children who have split because she got cancer for a second time. Husband didn’t want to deal with it again apparently and left.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Prodigal said:


> No excuse. Uh, no. Just. No. Disinterest amplifies friendship? I treat my friends a helluva lot better than many married folks treat one another from what I've read on TAM. At least I show respect and interest when it comes to the people in my life. So staying married to someone for whom you have little or no interest just so you can stay stuck with familiar, or staying because you want someone to hold your hand as you take your last breath ... okay. But I sure don't get it.
> 
> And don't count on an indifferent spouse/partner to turn into Mother Teresa when you get ill. I speak from experience.


I was speaking strictly about passion and interest regarding sex. My point was that a relationship can have everything else you speak of, including interest in everything else... conversation, taking care of one another when ill, all the things that might be the foundation of a very best friendship relationship. Only the passion & sex is missing.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Casual Observer said:


> I was speaking strictly about passion and interest regarding sex. My point was that a relationship can have everything else you speak of, including interest in everything else... conversation, taking care of one another when ill, all the things that might be the foundation of a very best friendship relationship. Only the passion & sex is missing.


Uh huh... So when are you going to tell me the Loch Ness Monster is real?


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

IMO: as time goes by your misery is becoming depression? Each of you has different needs with regard to emotional connection and intimacy. If you could wave a magic wand, what would happen? Do you ever wish one or the other of you were dead? 

You seem stuck, in a rut. It takes more courage to leave than to stay. Perhaps, staying is OK because there are just enough connections? I feel sad for you.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

I think most of these points from others are valid. A couple things:

1) A lot of people just get too comfortable in a relationship. That’s what some people want, to settle back into who they were before the dating phase. The last thing they want to do is put effort into something that they think shouldn’t require any. Some people think that a successful marriage is two people living a life together.

2) Sometimes the avoidance any discussion of unhappiness that could lead to choice or action is paramount. My DW has a visceral reaction to any jokes about divorce or her being alone. 

3) Sometimes partners emphasize the “friend” aspect of marriage and minimize the sexuality-part. It’s a formula good friends + love + legal recognition + shared assets - sex. I do think sometimes it’s worth saying you feel like you’re just friends only and you need to work on it. Mid they balk then you’ve violated the “cherish” part.

4) I think most women just don’t want to face the possibility losing half their assets, standard of living and other benefits because of a feeling they think is perfectly justified.

I would quit pursuing as it looks weak and needy. But don’t be an avoidant **** about it. It’s perfectly fine to say that you’re drifting apart emotionally and she’s losing you.

TL/DR - she’s taking you for granted, quit pursuing, let her know you’re drifting apart (due to lack of relational maintenance) and the ball is in her court.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

aaarghdub said:


> TL/DR - she’s taking you for granted, quit pursuing, let her know you’re drifting apart (due to lack of relational maintenance)* and the ball is in her court*.


I did that... my wife kept giving me sex to keep me there, and in the meantime detaching... when empty-nested, she ditched me... I never saw it coming because, as a man, I equated the gift of sex to an act of love towards me... I was wrong, but I do believe that deep down she does love me (she told me she loved me during and after sex) but her mental issues are bigger than our marriage. I do believe you need to keep nurturing the relationship and tackle any issues with maturity. I never did that.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I would hazard a guess that Mrs. Nail is content in her marriage and really has no clue how her husband feels. Mr. Nail is a very sensitive soul and most likely hasn't spelled it out for her due to self-protection.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Vacation is a bust, I canceled everything today. what a waste of a year. I'm sad.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Mr. Nail said:


> Vacation is a bust, I canceled everything today. what a waste of a year. I'm sad.


I remember feeling that way. Although we pushed through it and he was the same numb nuts in Jamaica that he was at home. He was sure to let me know through the divorce process how much of a bother our vacations were to him. I put so much thought and planning into them...up to squeezing into my wedding dress one time (despite hearing a couple of seams rip...lol) for our anniversary. He should have just gut punched me. It would have hurt less.

I have nothing for you...just wanted to commiserate.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I haven't looked at this for 2 months. I'm still pretty unsure about posting, but as this is my thread it seems like a safer space. 
I think the emotional (at least) affair has played out. I'll never know what really happened, and I'm not sure I care.
The subject of vacation came up again this morning. You don't know how weird that is. She never talks to me, especially not on a morning she is going to work, even more so if she worked the pervious day. I asked if she wanted to do something on my birthday (about a week away). She said she had been thinking about taking an overnight trip. Well it sounded positive but, I just can't make the optimism stick.
A she wants me to walk around in the cold and dark and look at pretty colored lights. 
She isn't willing to actually plan the trip.
She isn't sure she is physically up to doing it.
So . . .
I would have to make the plans and reservations.
There is nothing I'm really interested in.
At the end I would get complaints about how tired she is.
What's in it for me?

So the details don't work out and she's wishy washy about it. It is not at all what I had in mind as "Birthday" it is, just more hallmark christmasy stuff. 
Tell me why I should make this happen?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I think if it's your birthday and she wants to take an overnight trip, she needs to plan it.

That's how it's always worked in my relationships.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Mr. Nail said:


> I haven't looked at this for 2 months. I'm still pretty unsure about posting, but as this is my thread it seems like a safer space.
> I think the emotional (at least) affair has played out. I'll never know what really happened, and I'm not sure I care.
> The subject of vacation came up again this morning. You don't know how weird that is. She never talks to me, especially not on a morning she is going to work, even more so if she worked the pervious day. I asked if she wanted to do something on my birthday (about a week away). She said she had been thinking about taking an overnight trip. Well it sounded positive but, I just can't make the optimism stick.
> A she wants me to walk around in the cold and dark and look at pretty colored lights.
> ...


Well, Happy Birthday... 💗


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You absolutely shouldn’t make it happen but my guess is that you will.. Why? Because that’s what you always do since she won’t.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

In my opinion, be genuine, and tell her the truth. 

Tell her how this makes you feel - send her what you've written here. Get it out of you, and make it real.

Don't do what you don't want to do. 

Think about what you'd like on your birthday. 🙂



Mr. Nail said:


> Tell me why I should make this happen?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> What's in it for me?


I don't know; only you can answer that question. I don't understand why you want to stay with someone with whom you have no true emotional connection. Sounds like it would get very frustrating, not to mention just being a lonely situation.



Mr. Nail said:


> The subject of vacation came up again this morning. You don't know how weird that is. She never talks to me, especially not on a morning she is going to work, even more so if she worked the pervious day.


I think the only thing that strikes me as weird is you say, "She never talks to me ..." then you describe what sounds like a discussion of sorts.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Mr. Nail said:


> She said she had been thinking about taking an overnight trip.


Maybe she wasn't thinking about taking you along.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

She obviously doesn’t want a divorce but my guess that now-done EA/PA won’t be the last one that you’ll have to turn a blind eye to. So regardless of what she tells you, her actions say she’s checked out. My advice would be to quit hoping she’ll change and instead create your own life — with separate vacations — doing what you want to do.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> I recently described my relationship as an uncommitted marriage. We live together, we are in the habit of marriage, but there is no longer any desire to attend to the emotional needs of each other.
> Way back in February I planned a vacation for us in April, Then the world went into quarantine and the only good news was that the airlines have been pretty open to changing plans. We naively thought that we could fly to texas in September, because by then summer storms would be gone and virus under control. So anyhow, last week we were changing plans again. We picked a state with very low virus numbers and tried to set up a flight. As the prices climbed and the availability dropped I made one more call to DW and asked, " am I just trying to make something work that you have no real interest in?" Because at that point I couldn't have cared less whether we went or stayed.
> Today, I'm thinking, if you have to ask your partner if they really want to go on a vacation with you, are you asking the right question? (aside: she did answer the question quickly that she did indeed want to vacation with me)
> I know we are a mess. I know the relationship isn't viable. But it's worse than I thought. Yesterday I started working on a vacation for next spring. I'm shopping for equipment to do a solo kayak camping trip. Should I even ask?
> Gadzooks! (word of the day) I'm a complete mess.


No, it's ok to plan a solo getaway. Just be up front about it.

Nothing good marriages don't do as well, anyway.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Prodigal said:


> "She never talks to me ..." then you describe what sounds like a discussion of sorts.


Yes, it was pretty weird. 
But it also explains why I think the affair is done. She is actually thinking about me.
Is it turning a corner? Probably more of a thinking reset.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Sfort said:


> Maybe she wasn't thinking about taking you along.


I think that for what she want's to do, she should take the kids (adults). But they don't do overnight. It's causing a confusion.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

There is a lot of talk about just accepting separate vacations. I would say it is foreign to me, but I used to do 7-12 days every year for about 10 years. I didn't go alone, But she didn't come along.
I don't have that group anymore. 
I'm pretty sure I need the alone time. in her current work schedule there is an every other weekend from 3pm Friday to 8AM monday. I could do a lot with that.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

SO wait -- she had an EA/PA, and you didn't bust her or give her ANY repercussions, and you just go along with things?
If she did this, WHY would you want to do ANYTHING with her?
Sorry if I missed your posts about her EA/PA, but again WHY would you even WANT to have her do anything for your birthday or any other vacation?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

jlg07 said:


> SO wait -- she had an EA/PA, and you didn't bust her or give her ANY repercussions, and you just go along with things?
> If she did this, WHY would you want to do ANYTHING with her?
> Sorry if I missed your posts about her EA/PA, but again WHY would you even WANT to have her do anything for your birthday or any other vacation?


One day I decided to surprise her after work. I went to her work, I get out of work an hour before her, and parked near her car. I needed to do some shopping and thought she might do dinner with me. As I sat waiting she came out of the building with a man they talked and laughed as they walked. As you know conversation is one of the needs I never get filled. This made me quite jealous. As she climbed into her car I rolled down a window and called her name. Up to this point she did not notice my truck. She decided to go with me and has never mentioned the man or what was going on. She may think I didn't see him, She may think that she did nothing wrong. 

When you come to a trial in your life, at that point you have to decide how you want to handle it. I decided sitting there in my pickup in her work parking lot, That I didn't want to know more, that I didn't need to do an investigation or an interrogation. At this point it is between her,and him and their Gods. If she decides to tell me what happened, I'll have to rethink that decision. 
We had 20ish good years, and over that time we have plenty of chits to trade. I decided that this is a normal typical event in a marriage of this length. Either I can forgive or I can divorce. At this point, I feel like forgiving. But I don't know the details. I suppose that if she thinks I need to know she will tell me. I don't think she will tell me about a flirtation, or an EA. The details could change my mind. Time could change my mind, a second event, or a habit of affairs could change my mind. 

Honestly the twenty good years can buy a lot of patience. 20 out of 33. But as I look at the statistics, That's pretty Damn good. It's way above average. So that is the mysterious Why. 

It's weird, but it just is where I am.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Sadly, it sounds like you are self-sabotaging. You've spent a long time being miserable. It's all you know. And my guess is at this point you actually believe happiness is for other people, but not for you. You stay, even though it's not fulfilling and downright painful. Why dance with the devil you don't know, when you can dance with the one you know, right?

Instead of excuses, I wish you'd look for honest reasons as to why you stay with someone who not only doesn't love you, but doesn't even respect you. Believe it or not, you deserve to have a happy life. You would be far, far happier exiting this situation.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Makes me so sad. 😢



Mr. Nail said:


> As you know conversation is one of the needs I never get filled.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> As I sat waiting she came out of the building with a man they talked and laughed as they walked.


Wow! You do understand that what you describe is a normal interaction, between people who work with each other.

It is an extraordinarily long bow for you to figure that your wife is cheating on you from that, so please do get a grip of yourself.

That said you are evidently miserable with your wife, so please do yourself and your wife a favour and terminate your marriage.

Of which it must be very hard for your wife to feel much respect for you, when you evidently seem to have little respect for yourself.

At the end of the day until you stop choosing this, nothing is going to be better for you.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

It is not something I would do. It is a boundary that I would not accept in myself. But! it very well could be completely innocent. If I had wanted proof I would have had to do much more investigation. I was not surprised to see them together, all of the other affair signs were there. The distance, the distraction, the loss of intimacy. 
As far as getting a grip on reality, I won't accept that advice from a person of your avocation.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

It may have been a crush. It may have been an EA. It may have been a PA. Apparently it’s over now. But what about the next time? Because there usually is a next time when you discover the first time wasn’t so difficult to pull off.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> I won't accept that advice from a person of your *avocation*.


Does the fact that I sometimes enjoy building scale models (currently working on an MPC 22" 1/48 scale, Space: 1999 Eagle Transporter) offend you?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I've already answered that question. My question re. birthday getaway was answered well. I agree that I should not put any effort into something she is half committed to and I'm not interested in. I'm reluctant to take minimal's advice to talk to her about it. I'll probably wimp out and just say the last thing she told me was that she didn't have the energy for it.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'll probably wimp out


Why is that? Do you just need to vent here? If so, that's fine. But you never answer the hard questions posed to you. You don't have to do that either. But the thing is, I'm just trying to figure out why you are posting. I can only speculate, but it sounds like you want your wife to love you. You probably still love your wife, but years of neglect has reduced you to feeling resentful and rather bitter. Wouldn't it be better just to ditch the wimp mode and confront her and to start being honest with yourself?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Are you afraid of what she might say?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

or am I just accepting what she did say?


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> or am I just accepting what she did say?


Man just go have fun by yourself. One of the best vacations I ever took was going to Thailand for two weeks alone. Sat on the beach, learned to scuba dive, did yoga every morning on top of a big hill we had to climb up. Met some cool people from all over the world, went to the full moon party on Koh Phangan (A few other travelers and myself "borrowed" the dive boat to get there). Just did whatever I felt like doing whenever I felt like doing it. 

Maybe your wife will see you taking control of your own happiness and read between the lines. Doubtful but you need some happiness even if it's just you having it.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

So, do you think and feel you deserve something good in your life, @Mr. Nail ?

Do you think and feel you deserve to have pleasant feelings, the weight lifted off your shoulders and chest? Peace and contentment?

As much as anyone does?

These can be complex questions, with potentially much to their answers, but if you have a moment to share the yes or no that comes to mind, I would appreciate it.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> I would hazard a guess that Mrs. Nail is content in her marriage and really has no clue how her husband feels. Mr. Nail is a very sensitive soul and most likely hasn't spelled it out for her due to self-protection.


Not sure how I missed this, first time around. Mrs. Nail and my wife are the same person. Or rather, we’re, since it’s come as quite a shock for my wife to understand that one person’s content (hers) did not equate to a happy marriage for both. It’s hard to believe someone can be so oblivious.

So, to @Mr. Nail , is she oblivious? If so, does she carry the full blame for that, or did you just allow it to continue?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Under the rug sweeping comes to mind...


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

PieceOfSky said:


> So, do you think and feel you deserve something good in your life, @Mr. Nail ?
> 
> Do you think and feel you deserve to have pleasant feelings, the weight lifted off your shoulders and chest? Peace and contentment?
> 
> ...


I've thought about it. One thought was what is the angle here?
One thought was If I deserved happiness, peace or contentment, then I wouldn't need to shave or diet.
and back around to what the heck is the point of this question?
I believe two contradictory things. One happiness is the goal of this existence and will be the end of it if you follow the path that leads to it. Two, in life you must often give something to get something. And I'm not really sure what I would need to trade for pleasant feelings. 
After writing all of tht out, if I boil it all down to a simple yes or no, then No, That is not the goal I am looking for in the short term. as an overall life goal Yes eventually.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Casual Observer said:


> Not sure how I missed this, first time around. Mrs. Nail and my wife are the same person. Or rather, we’re, since it’s come as quite a shock for my wife to understand that one person’s content (hers) did not equate to a happy marriage for both. It’s hard to believe someone can be so oblivious.
> 
> So, to @Mr. Nail , is she oblivious? If so, does she carry the full blame for that, or did you just allow it to continue?


Do I allow her to believe that I am happy when I am not? No, but the feedback is not a working system.
I'm not happy.
I'm happy you must be happy.
But I'm not happy.
Do something to make me happier!


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> Do I allow her to believe that I am happy when I am not? No, but the feedback is not a working system.
> I'm not happy.
> I'm happy you must be happy.
> But I'm not happy.
> Do something to make me happier!


Nail, 

Honestly in reading your words, i can not help buy see you just existing but not living, your acceptance of whether she was cheating or not is said in the same breathe, you sound like you have no passion in your life certainly not for your marriage......if you want a status quo marriage then don't do anything but don't ***** about either...you want change then find out what you want and if your wife is not on board then its time to leave her behind and move on to what you really want and what will give you passion.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> But I'm not happy.
> Do something to make me happier!


Happiness is an inside job. Your wife has no interest in making you happier. Unless you are willing to rock the boat, this is what you will have. She's certainly not going to do anything unless you have a serious discussion with her about what you want and what you expect from the marriage. Telling folks here won't do jack. Telling her might work. If it doesn't, then you have your answer. Either put up with it or leave.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I think that, when you get to the "serious discussion" stage, it's already too late. You shouldn't be having a "serious discussion"... it's been too long, anyway.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I think you justify what you are unwilling to change in your life.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Mr. Nail said:


> One day I decided to surprise her after work. I went to her work, I get out of work an hour before her, and parked near her car. I needed to do some shopping and thought she might do dinner with me. As I sat waiting she came out of the building with a man they talked and laughed as they walked. As you know conversation is one of the needs I never get filled. This made me quite jealous. As she climbed into her car I rolled down a window and called her name. Up to this point she did not notice my truck. She decided to go with me and has never mentioned the man or what was going on. She may think I didn't see him, She may think that she did nothing wrong.


So, this OF and by ITSELF -- I don't see this as any sort of affair. I DO understand that you are jealous since she doesn't talk to you like that. BUT, this just seems like normal co-worker interactions. 
You mentioned other things, so maybe THOSE have influenced you to think this was an EA or PA, but that by itself I don't think rises to that level at all.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

It would be good if you could sit her down and be vulnerable with her. Tell her how your current marriage is making you feel and you'd like it to change.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Openminded said:


> I think you justify what you are unwilling to change in your life.


sounds familiar... 😂


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

sorry everyone, I just got way lost there. I was trying to explain that mrs.' only ideas about why I'm unhappy, is because she isn't comfortable enough. I told her about my needs she felt uncomfortable that I wanted her to think of me. I told her about her addiction robbing me of time, she told me that it made her comfortable. I'm not sure how telling her that I no longer want to do things with her is going to make her feel, but I suspect it will make her uncomfortable. I don't really want to know how she feels about OSF. 
I'm f'n tired of NO.
I'm f'n tired of uncomfortable. 
I'm not very happy that it's cold every day. I can't go work on the lawn or chase birds in the kayak. 
I told her that I didn't do anything towards her overnight plan.
I didn't give a reason, she didn't ask.
I hate Christmas again.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm f'n tired of NO.
> I'm f'n tired of uncomfortable.


Then change the paradigm. Sounds like this all boils down to what makes HER "comfortable" and to hell with you.

If you are really as tired of this as you claim, the actually DO SOMETHING about it or learn to live with it. Seriously.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> sounds familiar... 😂


Yes, it does apply to you as well. 🙂


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

And why should you care at this point if it makes her uncomfortable? Are you really more concerned about her feelings than your own?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Openminded said:


> Yes, it does apply to you as well. 🙂


kind of guessed it... 🙂 I feel sorry for the OP, I have been there and it's not pretty.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> kind of guessed it... 🙂 I feel sorry for the OP, I have been there and it's not pretty.


No, it definitely isn’t pretty. And the only way to fix it is to stop being afraid of what might happen if you take back control of your life. But you know that. And so does he.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> Do I allow her to believe that I am happy when I am not? No, but the feedback is not a working system.
> I'm not happy.
> I'm happy you must be happy.
> But I'm not happy.
> Do something to make me happier!


Does she believe she has a good marriage if she's happy but you're not?

It seems the height of either unawareness, self-deception or selfishness that a partner can believe they have a good, possibly even great marriage, without taking into account their partner's feelings on the matter.

But at the same time, how can the unhappy partner, knowing this is the case, let it continue? If this has gone on for years, why should we expect some sort of sudden epiphany today when they've been trained, by the aggrieved partner, to believe it's ok, they can get away with it, it's acceptable because it hasn't come up in the past?

Of course we can flip this around. How many go out of their way to rock the boat and try to find out that their partner might not be happy?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> How many go out of their way to rock the boat and try to find out that their partner might not be happy?


This is exactly what I found. And I did rock the boat and destroyed everything. In hindsight, I wasn't mature enough to handle it and lost myself in the process. But I understand why I did it. Would I do things differently? Absolutely, but I don't think the outcome would have been any different. To me, from my experience, the OP's marriage is doomed.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Casual Observer said:


> Does she believe she has a good marriage if she's happy but you're not?
> 
> It seems the height of either unawareness, self-deception or selfishness that a partner can believe they have a good, possibly even great marriage, without taking into account their partner's feelings on the matter.
> 
> ...


They know you're not happy but don't care because a. they are selfish and your happiness doesn't matter to them and b. they know despite being unhappy you're NEVER leaving the marriage. Both must exist together.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Livvie said:


> They know you're not happy but don't care because a. they are selfish and your happiness doesn't matter to them and b. they know despite being unhappy you're NEVER leaving the marriage. Both must exist together.


I think it's a tad more complex than that... not justifying my (in)action, but there are many reasons why people do what they do in a relationship, selfishness being one of them.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> I think it's a tad more complex than that...


Denial. It's a powerful thing that keeps people stuck in crappy relationships.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Prodigal said:


> Denial. It's a powerful thing that keeps people stuck in crappy relationships.


And fear...


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> And fear...


Fear of what, exactly?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Prodigal said:


> Fear of what, exactly?


Fear of being alone.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> Fear of being alone.


But how do you not see that you actually ARE alone...?? When you partner with someone who doesn't care about you or your feelings, you are ALONE...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> But how do you not see that you actually ARE alone...?? When you partner with someone who doesn't care about you or your feelings, you are ALONE...


yes, I'm aware of it... this is why it's so difficult... it's not just the psychological aspect of it, but also the physical one. I'm already alone, but the physical presence, albeit distant, makes it more bearable, and unbearable at the same time. We will be out of Covid at some point, and I will be travelling, spending more time in my native country. I'm trapped here.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> yes, I'm aware of it... this is why it's so difficult... it's not just the psychological aspect of it, but also the physical one. I'm already alone, but the physical presence, albeit distant, makes it more bearable, and unbearable at the same time. We will be out of Covid at some point, and I will be travelling, spending more time in my native country. I'm trapped here.


Just so you know, I am ALWAYS hoping you find your way out of your unhappiness...!!!


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> Just so you know, I am ALWAYS hoping you find your way out of your unhappiness...!!!


Thank you. I know nobody believes me and everybody thinks I will be stuck here forever. This is just not true. I know my marriage is over and I can't spend the rest of my life like this. It was our 30th wedding anniversary the other day. I bought her some flowers - you know, she's been my wife for 30 years, so I thought it would be a nice gesture for the mother of my children - and she just said she'd forgotten about it. I wasn't disappointed. In a way, it's just the ultimate confirmation that indeed it is over...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> Thank you. I know nobody believes me and everybody thinks I will be stuck here forever. This is just not true. I know my marriage is over and I can't spend the rest of my life like this. It was our 30th wedding anniversary the other day. I bought her some flowers - you know, she's been my wife for 30 years, so I thought it would be a nice gesture for the mother of my children - and she just said she'd forgotten about it. I wasn't disappointed. In a way, it's just the ultimate confirmation that indeed it is over...


You might just need longer than most people to process the loss and freely give yourself permission to let go and move on. And that's ok! I think people just hate to see you (and @Mr. Nail), or anyone, staying in painful situations.

It's not that I don't believe you, and you can stay stuck if you really choose that...but I'm ALWAYS rooting for you to find happiness!


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> but I'm ALWAYS rooting for you to find happiness!


Thank you!


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Yesterday Mrs. N, held my hand in a meeting with our clergy. I'm trying to figure our WTF? Today she won't talk and is working 6 out of the next 7 days So There won't be any discussion from her. 

Whatever.


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## Angel wings (Oct 31, 2021)

Mr. Nail said:


> I recently described my relationship as an uncommitted marriage. We live together, we are in the habit of marriage, but there is no longer any desire to attend to the emotional needs of each other.
> Way back in February I planned a vacation for us in April, Then the world went into quarantine and the only good news was that the airlines have been pretty open to changing plans. We naively thought that we could fly to texas in September, because by then summer storms would be gone and virus under control. So anyhow, last week we were changing plans again. We picked a state with very low virus numbers and tried to set up a flight. As the prices climbed and the availability dropped I made one more call to DW and asked, " am I just trying to make something work that you have no real interest in?" Because at that point I couldn't have cared less whether we went or stayed.
> Today, I'm thinking, if you have to ask your partner if they really want to go on a vacation with you, are you asking the right question? (aside: she did answer the question quickly that she did indeed want to vacation with me)
> I know we are a mess. I know the relationship isn't viable. But it's worse than I thought. Yesterday I started working on a vacation for next spring. I'm shopping for equipment to do a solo kayak camping trip. Should I even ask?
> Gadzooks! (word of the day) I'm a complete mess.


It's very simple the lock down had a big roll in this. So be patient and try to give her space and yes make the arrangements and things will get better. This pandemic we faced was not easy just thank God you still together just be happy. She still love you. Social media had huge impact on all relationships.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> Yesterday Mrs. N, held my hand in a our clergy. I'm trying to figure our WTF? Today she won't talk and is working 6 out of the next 7 days So There won't be any discussion from her.
> 
> Whatever.


And the clergy go away thinking about how you two are so devoted to each other.
She’s putting on a show, keeping up appearances.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Andy1001 said:


> And the clergy go away thinking about how you two are so devoted to each other.
> She’s putting on a show, keeping up appearances.


Yes, that is a leading explanation. Or for a close second place, trying to keep me from saying else wise. Or, because she was nervous about something else?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

What was the reason for the meeting with the clergy? Who initiated it?


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Mr. Nail said:


> *I'm shopping for equipment to do a solo kayak camping trip.* * Should I even ask*?
> Gadzooks! (word of the day) I'm a complete mess.


My only comment would be IMO a solo camping trip is not a good idea because trips alone can end tragically where with a travel companion an incident is just a minor inconvenience. Recall the guy who had to amputate his arm with a pocket knife when rock fell on it. I have made many hikes and camping trips into rugged isolated terrain, but never alone. If you don't care to take your partner (which is understandable given the dynamic between you), find a friend also interested in kayaking. Or better yet a kayaking group in the area you want to explore.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm trying to figure our WTF?


It means that the problem is not you.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

She likely cares how things appear to your clergy.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> What was the reason for the meeting with the clergy? Who initiated it?


It is an annual thing, completely routine. Usually done between now and the end of the year. It includes a balancing of the donations account, and a quick check up spiritually. There is an in depth spiritual check every two years that is NOT done as a couple. I haven't been to one in 6 years. At some point the clergy may request that I come in for that, but He will be too busy for the rest of this year to get to that kind of thinking. 

I'm aware from past experience that eventually statistics may prompt that kind of invitation. Or, I could initiate it at any time I felt ready to. Of course, I'm not ready to announce that I'm done with marriage. 
Enough of the religious side trip.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Rus47 said:


> IMO a solo camping trip is not a good idea because trips alone can end tragically


Thanks for caring Rus, As it happens I took one of those trips last May /June, when I had a whole weekend unscheduled. It was a bit of a trial go. I camped in a public campground and kayaked on the lake. Who knows where I will go next? I don't do outdoor winters, so you can rest assured for several months.

I am aware that in this long thread there is talk about why I like to travel together, and why I need (sometimes) to be alone, and away from everyone. It's confusing, but I do need emotionally both.,

But, back to the present. Why is she sending false signals. And more importantly why didn't I see it before I was complicit with it?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> But, back to the present. Why is she sending false signals. And more importantly why didn't I see it before I was complicit with it?


My guess is she's invested in appearances, no matter how she actually feels about you and the marriage as a whole. You're complicit by overt or covert agreement because you've decided to stay. It's called survival. Either go along with her nonsense, or blow it up. Since you've chosen not to end this, you'll continue to be complicit ... whether you realize it or not.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Thanks everyone,
I'm pretty sure it is a case of her keeping up appearances, mostly by keeping me from talking about something I wouldn't have brought up in that meeting. The shock to me was that this is the first time that has happened in 6 months or more.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I said this 11 months ago


Mr. Nail said:


> I hate Christmas again.


I don't think I should have to do this again. I don't think I will.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> I said this 11 months ago
> 
> I don't think I should have to do this again. I don't think I will.


It sounds like you and your wife are associated with the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, or something very closely related to it. That really doesn't change anything one way or the other. Your wife is very concerned about what other people (including clergy) think and does not care nearly as much about you. As long as you don't ruffle any feathers she will most likely continue as things are.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Mr. Nail said:


> Thanks everyone,
> I'm pretty sure it is a case of her keeping up appearances, mostly by keeping me from talking about something I wouldn't have brought up in that meeting. The shock to me was that this is the first time that has happened in 6 months or more.


You ever think she might have just wanted to hold your hand?

I certainly could be keeping up appearances. But you know many woman like hand holding. If I remember right your marriage is sexless that doesn't mean she doesn't want closeness.

When you got in the car would have been a good time to say. Hey I noticed you held my hand during the meeting. That was nice.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Anastasia6 said:


> You ever think she might have just wanted to hold your hand?
> 
> I certainly could be keeping up appearances. But you know many woman like hand holding. If I remember right your marriage is sexless that doesn't mean she doesn't want closeness.
> 
> When you got in the car would have been a good time to say. Hey I noticed you held my hand during the meeting. That was nice.


Meh…doubtful. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> I don't think I should have to do this again. I don't think I will.


My late husband, a hardcore alcoholic, found inventive ways to destroy Christmas for me on a consistent basis.

I have no idea what makes Christmas so bad for you, but I feel your pain.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

I don't understand people that don't have the balls (cowardice in my opinion) to end a relationship that means nothing to them. They just go on wasting their life on an unfulfilled hypocritical relationship when they perfectly could be in a loving fulfilling relationship with somebody else, or at least alone but living life as desired, without having to put up with all the ******** that a pathetic existence in that relationship forces you to live.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm not ready to announce that I'm done with marriage.


I hope you will really explore why this is. Because from where I'm sitting, you come on here to complain periodically but always make excuses to stay. 

Consider undertaking serious exploration of yourself to determine why you stay. From what you post here, it sounds like you are very frightened and insecure. There are no HEALTHY reasons to remain in an unfulfilling marriage. Sad, but true.


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