# Test drive



## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

Hi, new member here. We've been married 19yrs and hoping to keep it together. The mismatch in sex drives is getting in the way. She keeps saying we should stop sex already, in our late 40s. I dread to think it will all end in the near future. Maybe best not to think of it and just live like it won't, until it does. Otherwise, she is a loving spouse and I am happy all in all. Great to see a vibrant marriage forum here. Looking forward to reading and learning more from others' experiences. I'm curious how others are dealing with this other done going the D route.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

I think you are at a crossroads. She's laid down the gauntlet.

I STRONGLY suggest you read His Needs Her Needs. It will point out that desiring sex, an attractive wife, etc are VALID needs for a guy. In fact sex is the number 1 need for men. And it's how many men connect emotionally with women.

It's very common for women to think sex is an act that isn't tied to men's needs, overall wellbeing, and emotional connection. He11 it's common that men don't realize it.

If you read that book with your W you may find out that you think differently and have different needs. And if you love each other, it might make you want to change to meet your loved ones needs.

If that doesn't resonate with her, you'll have to decide if you want celibacy. It's no shame to love your W but reject sexlessness. If it's important to you, fight for it. Or accept and capitulate. Or accept and leave.

I went through something similar but my W never laid it out like that. We just got too busy and I was too accommodating for far too long. I took a few years trying to bring her along until I read about HNHN on TAM and it opened the dialog and her eyes. She then felt horrible when she understood how I felt. We have been having daily sex of some sort or another since. It'll be 2 years in Nov. it doesn't always take long but we are so much more connected. I'm 54 BTW. We always had sex but sometimes a month might slip by. That just didn't work for me.

So don't accept what's unacceptable. Good luck. 


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

bilbag said:


> Hi, new member here. We've been married 19yrs and hoping to keep it together. The mismatch in sex drives is getting in the way. *She keeps saying we should stop sex already, in our late 40s.* I dread to think it will all end in the near future. Maybe best not to think of it and just live like it won't, until it does. Otherwise, she is a loving spouse and I am happy all in all. Great to see a vibrant marriage forum here. Looking forward to reading and learning more from others' experiences. I'm curious how others are dealing with this other done going the D route.


Tell her that modern research suggests that women reach sexual maturity at age 60!

Odds are she is having trouble accepting her self image as her body ages, and having sex forces her to come face to face with the fact that you two are not young anymore. Tell her that growing old together is something beautiful and that having sex should accomplish one thing, and that is to make her feel loved.

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Tell her that modern research suggests that women reach sexual maturity at age 60!
> 
> Odds are she is having trouble accepting her self image as her body ages, and having sex forces her to come face to face with the fact that you two are not young anymore. Tell her that growing old together is something beautiful and that having sex should accomplish one thing, and that is to make her feel loved.
> 
> ...


Hmm, sounds like a great strategy. I think I'll try it...I doubt it will work but there's not much to lose if it doesn't.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I took a few years trying to bring her along until I read about HNHN on TAM and it opened the dialog and her eyes. She then felt horrible when she understood how I felt. We have been having daily sex of some sort or another since. It'll be 2 years in Nov. it doesn't always take long but we are so much more connected. I'm 54 BTW. We always had sex but sometimes a month might slip by. That just didn't work for me.
> 
> So don't accept what's unacceptable. Good luck.


I looked up HNHN and found this summary...

Top Needs/Expectations in Marriage:
For Men: 
1. Sexual Fulfillment
2. Recreational Companionship
3. Attractive Wife
4. Domestic Support
5. Appreciation & Admiration

For Women:
1. Affection
2. Conversation
3. Honesty & Openness
4. Financial Support
5. Family Commitment

My situation sounds similar to TheTruthHurts before his wife's revelation. I look at the list above and I am all in on 1-5 For Women for my wife. But she does 2-5 For Men for me. Definitely not interested in #1. I hate to throw away 2-5, but #1 is #1 for a reason. It is the most important to me. Reading your post about you turning it around gives me a tiny bit of hope, but I don't see how reading HNHN with her will help her if a Sex Therapist could not after 2 years of trying.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Before proclaiming the marriage a federal disaster area, what did sex life look like before her proclamation of giving up.the ghost in the late 40's???


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

bilbag said:


> Hi, new member here. We've been married 19yrs and hoping to keep it together. The mismatch in sex drives is getting in the way. She keeps saying we should stop sex already, in our late 40s. I dread to think it will all end in the near future. Maybe best not to think of it and just live like it won't, until it does. Otherwise, she is a loving spouse and I am happy all in all. Great to see a vibrant marriage forum here. Looking forward to reading and learning more from others' experiences. I'm curious how others are dealing with this other done going the D route.


I am 55 and have been married for 25 years.
Just had sex last night and thought to myself about how passionate and intense it was. Sometimes it blows my mind.

It was never like this. In fact, sex was not so wonderful from the start. 20 years in and I thought sex was almost dead. I changed myself and told my wife in no uncertain terms that if she and I did not make a concerted effort to make sex better, I was gone.

The point of my post is to give you some hope. Change IS possible.
Not easy, not the norm, but possible.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

It's very simple actually.

It did take a while for me, but ultimately I said, exasperated, that I wouldn't live without an active sex life. I told her I didn't know what I would do. I loved her and didn't want divorce. So I did drop the D bomb - which is VERY disruptive to a marriage. But I was being honest and it was where we were.
I'm sure that changed everything. But since we'd already talked extensively, it didn't sound like I was just a sex maniac.

If you and your wife love each other, and are willing to accommodate each other, and there is no medical issue... then it's simply a matter of priorities.

We do unpleasant things all the time. If you're clean and not completely unattractive to her, then there isn't anything you need to do to have this need met.

She just has to KNOW you're serious. So - "first understand" which is why I recommend HNHN with her. After she understands and you talk, if she doesn't come around, then she has to really KNOW this is real. 

This, IMO, is the real sticking point. Does she KNOW what your limits are? Do you KNOW? Because I KNEW and it was killing me. I KNEW I wouldn't stay with someone I loved dearly if this need was not met. Because I knew I would grow to be a miserable, obsessed, resentful guy and I didn't want to be that guy.

Where are you in this? Will you live happily with this need not met? And does she think you will live happily with this need not met?


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

This thread is blowing my mind. 

I can't help you. I married a girl 12 years younger and after 22 years I still can't keep her out of my pants.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

KillerClown said:


> This thread is blowing my mind.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't help you. I married a girl 12 years younger and after 22 years I still can't keep her out of my pants.




I'm trying to do the math, and if your 12 years older and she wasn't a teen and you've been married 22 years, that must make you... really old!




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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

bilbag said:


> Hi, new member here. We've been married 19yrs and hoping to keep it together. The mismatch in sex drives is getting in the way. She keeps saying we should stop sex already, in our late 40s. I dread to think it will all end in the near future. Maybe best not to think of it and just live like it won't, until it does. Otherwise, she is a loving spouse and I am happy all in all. Great to see a vibrant marriage forum here. Looking forward to reading and learning more from others' experiences. I'm curious how others are dealing with this other done going the D route.


Sir, I'm 51 and my W 43. Married 21 years. Sex has done anything but stopped. It is more intense and frequent than it has ever been. We don't see it stopping anytime soon. The freak flag flies in the bedroom.


What is her reasoning for stopping sex at this age?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Mismatched sex drives are a HUGE problem. Does she say why she thinks sex should stop? Does she physically not enjoy it, or is it more a case of not being in the mood? When you do have sex does she have orgasms?

Its worth finding out all you can, but ther may be nothing you can do.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I'm trying to do the math, and if your 12 years older and she wasn't a teen and you've been married 22 years, that must make you... really old!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stop. Stop doing the math.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Some time in our 30's my wife said something to the effect that we were too old for all of that sex foolishness. I have vivid memories of that conversation I can tell you where we were that it was summer and that the car was brown, just not sure which brown car it was. When ever I mention that traumatic experience to her she denies saying it, or even thinking it. We are 50 now. a few years ago she suggested that her needs were at about 2x per month. I told her I wouldn't be happy at less than 2x per week. A lot has happened since then.
Last night after her working a 12 hour shift, and helping with house work, she was so tired she could barely keep her eyes open, much less do anything sexual. She couldn't keep her hand off me. Made me feel very desired. 
@bilbag , I don't think your situation is that unusual, and I think there is a fair chance at a solution. I do know this, I would rather be living alone than be living with a woman I love and desire but whom I can not touch. It's a terrible torture.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> Some time in our 30's my wife said something to the effect that we were too old for all of that sex foolishness. I have vivid memories of that conversation I can tell you where we were that it was summer and that the car was brown, just not sure which brown car it was. When ever I mention that traumatic experience to her she denies saying it, or even thinking it. We are 50 now. a few years ago she suggested that her needs were at about 2x per month. I told her I wouldn't be happy at less than 2x per week. A lot has happened since then.
> Last night after her working a 12 hour shift, and helping with house work, she was so tired she could barely keep her eyes open, much less do anything sexual. She couldn't keep her hand off me. Made me feel very desired.
> 
> @bilbag , I don't think your situation is that unusual, and I think there is a fair chance at a solution. I do know this, I would rather be living alone than be living with a woman I love and desire but whom I can not touch. It's a terrible torture.


The great part of this and somewhat unexpected is when my wife and yours gave it that old college try, something strange happened along the way.

THEY LEARNED TO LIKE SEX TOO!!!

At first, my wife literally laughed at me when I tried to have the kind of sex I like to have. Lots of noise, lots of passion, dirty talk, multiple positions, etc. Now, in general, she likes it just as much as I do. Frankly, that, in and of itself is worth the effort.

Does my wife indulge my every kink? Hell no.
Is it most always an uphill battle? Hell yes.
However, whatever kind of sex we do have, it's enjoyed by both parties. All I ever really wanted was for her to want me. 
I think that's all ANYONE really wants, to be desired.


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

UMP said:


> THEY LEARNED TO LIKE SEX TOO!!!


YES!
It was for quite a while that we had mostly 'generic' sex. Pretty normal, tame stuff. Not ban, but not exceptional. 
Then one day, I did something a little kinky. Turned out, that it was something that my wife had wanted me to do, but of course, would never mention anything, musch less something out of the norm.

That unleashed the beast! 

:grin2:


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

Thanks everyone for your responses. I am a member of another forum on sexless marriages and the expectation for a solution there is really bleak. It saddens me and had to search elsewhere for hope and optimism. I married my soulmate and love her dearly. But we don't only have souls but bodies too. 
She was actually more sexual than me initially when we met and a full of year of passionate sex was greatly enjoyed. But I asked that we refrain from sex until after marriage. Then 2 kids after marriage. Then the downward slide in sexual desire turned into a fall off a cliff. She would rather just assist with her hands to try to fill my needs. I did try to leave 3 years ago, met someone else, but love got in the way and I stayed. She was sexually available and willing again and I was in heaven. For a summer. Then I came back to earth. 
I feel like she is having sex against her will to please me, to stay with me, because she loves me. I feel a little guilt. She recently suggested we divorce because she cannot be sexual person I desire. She doesn't want a divorce and neither do I. I still desire her physically and she is very faithful, loving. It's like I am missing a few (but crucial) pieces in a jigsaw puzzle (to find joy in life). 
It is encouraging that members here have been able find a solution to their once sexless relationships. That is my goal too.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

bilbag said:


> Thanks everyone for your responses. I am a member of another forum on sexless marriages and the expectation for a solution there is really bleak. It saddens me and had to search elsewhere for hope and optimism. I married my soulmate and love her dearly. But we don't only have souls but bodies too.
> She was actually more sexual than me initially when we met and a full of year of passionate sex was greatly enjoyed. But I asked that we refrain from sex until after marriage. Then 2 kids after marriage. Then the downward slide in sexual desire turned into a fall off a cliff. She would rather just assist with her hands to try to fill my needs. I did try to leave 3 years ago, met someone else, but love got in the way and I stayed. She was sexually available and willing again and I was in heaven. For a summer. Then I came back to earth.
> I feel like she is having sex against her will to please me, to stay with me, because she loves me. I feel a little guilt. She recently suggested we divorce because she cannot be sexual person I desire. She doesn't want a divorce and neither do I. I still desire her physically and she is very faithful, loving. It's like I am missing a few (but crucial) pieces in a jigsaw puzzle (to find joy in life).
> It is encouraging that members here have been able find a solution to their once sexless relationships. That is my goal too.


We have a busy lifestyle. 3 kids and 1 is mentally handicapped. We get tired like every body else, especially now that we're in our 50's. One thing that really worked for us was scheduled sex. I wanted sex every other day and she was happy with once per week. We settled on twice a week. Now, every Tuesday and Friday we have sex. We PLAN for it, meaning we adjust our busy schedules to accommodate sex on those days.

It's an involved process because my wife likes to relax first with a couple glasses of wine. We then both get spit shined while I get high on Viagra. It's a commitment. I view married sex like going to the gym. Most people break their commitment of going to the gym three times a week. You have to get your clothes together, drive to the gym, work out, shower, etc. etc. I have NEVER once gone to the gym and then regretted it afterward. However, I have MANY times not gone to the gym because I simply did not have the gumption to.

Married sex is the same way. After 25 years the newness is gone. However, passion can still be achieved even after all these years. Passion that even surpasses forbidden fruit fantasies, which in my opinion, is a miracle.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

If my DH became unable to have sex for some medical reason I would do my best to accept the change in my life. I would not divorce for that. 

If my DH was unwilling though, I do feel I would divorce. We are in our mid 40's and I plan on having sex for the rest of my life. It's an important part of life to me and a marriage commitment means I can only get it from him.

My marriage is one of those situations where I am the HD and he is the LD. I feel like there are 2 compromises that need to take place in a sexual mismatch. 1)the HD partner must accept less sex than they would like. And not pester. 2) the LD partner must learn to initiate. In my marriage that is as a simple as setting a date and time. But because he does that it makes me feel important to him in that way. 

I think far too often the HD is the one having to bend and adjust and try to change out our mindsets to make sex less important than it is. Convincing ourselves we don't need it, our partners are great, we are being unreasonable and childish for wanting a sexual dynamic to our marriage, our one relationship in life that can have any sexual dynamic at all. The LD partner has all the control. 

Every sexual mismatch relationship I know of is only making it if the LD is willing to step it up. If they are unwilling to compromise at all I don't know why the marriage should survive it. 

You are done having sex in your 40's. Great! Get a roommate, sounds like that will work well for you. (Comments aimed at LD partner, not the original poster.)


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I will never understand why a spouse living a sexless life with no end in site can say the marriage is really good. Sex is a vital part of marriage so if you're forced to go without a vital part of marriage, it's not a good marriage.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I will never understand why a spouse living a sexless life with no end in site can say the marriage is really good. Sex is a vital part of marriage so if you're forced to go without a vital part of marriage, it's not a good marriage.


Because people are pretty good at ignoring troublesome thoughts....


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> All I ever really wanted was for her to want me.
> I think that's all ANYONE really wants, to be desired.


I don't think everyone sees it this way. I think some people really like the act itself, regardless of the feelings around it.

OP, would you say that describes you, or are you more like UMP and need to feel desired?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> I don't think everyone sees it this way. I think some people really like the act itself, regardless of the feelings around it.
> 
> OP, would you say that describes you, or are you more like UMP and need to feel desired?


I always thought I liked just the act too, and I do. However, if not combined with love, it's just empty. My 20+ one night stands before my wife prove that. Although there was this one girl....:grin2:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> I always thought I liked just the act too, and I do. However, if not combined with love, it's just empty. My 20+ one night stands before my wife prove that. Although there was this one girl....:grin2:


But feeling desired does not necessarily equal love, does it? Can't they be two different things?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

jld said:


> But feeling desired does not necessarily equal love, does it? Can't they be two different things?


Oh they are different things. I love my brothers, sisters, parents and children, but don't desire them. People I love but do not desire are friends. I may even go to great lengths to ensure their security and well being, and happiness. But I'm not going to marry them, or even have sex with them. For that I need Desire.

I've always had that need to be desired. I Know people who only need to desire, but it is mutual for me. It has to go both ways. If I'm Not desired my desire will shortly die.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> Oh they are different things. I love my brothers, sisters, parents and children, but don't desire them. People I love but do not desire are friends. I may even go to great lengths to ensure their security and well being, and happiness. But I'm not going to marry them, or even have sex with them. For that I need Desire.
> 
> I've always had that need to be desired. I Know people who only need to desire, but it is mutual for me. It has to go both ways. If I'm Not desired my desire will shortly die.


Mr. Nail, did you say once that you are a male submissive? I thought I read that once. That would make sense to me with your need to be desired.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> But feeling desired does not necessarily equal love, does it? Can't they be two different things?


That's true.
I guess I don't think desire can last 20+ years if there is no love. In my relationship, after so many years desire has to manifest itself from something solid. Time makes everything too familiar and certainly does not help in the looks department. Being the best possible lover on the planet might also help....for a time.

If I didn't truly love my wife, I think the sex would have been dead many, many years ago.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> Mr. Nail, did you say once that you are a male submissive? I thought I read that once. That would make sense to me with your need to be desired.


If I have no desire coming from my wife, I might just as well have sex with the steak in the fridge.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There are many parts to a relationship. Its possible for a lot of things to be right, even though the sex is bad. That is the positive view.

On the other side, many people have spent years trying to find a solution to a sexual mismatch. They may be unwilling to admit even to themselves that they are miserable and have wasted all of their energy for so many years.





Anon Pink said:


> I will never understand why a spouse living a sexless life with no end in site can say the marriage is really good. Sex is a vital part of marriage so if you're forced to go without a vital part of marriage, it's not a good marriage.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> That's true.
> I guess I don't think desire can last 20+ years if there is no love. In my relationship, after so many years desire has to manifest itself from something solid. Time makes everything too familiar and certainly does not help in the looks department. Being the best possible lover on the planet might also help....for a time.
> 
> If I didn't truly love my wife, I think the sex would have been dead many, many years ago.


I think if she did not feel loved by you, the result could have been similar.

I feel lots of desire for Dug, and we have been together 23+ years. Honestly, as the kids get older and we have more time to spend together, it just gets better. 

The key to our marriage is Dug. His emotional strength is the foundation of our relationship. If he were reactive or dependent on me, I don't think I would feel any desire for him.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I will never understand why a spouse living a sexless life with no end in site can say the marriage is really good. Sex is a vital part of marriage so if you're forced to go without a vital part of marriage, it's not a good marriage.


all the wisdom of 2 pages of posts perfectly boiled down to two sentences.

I have not had lots partners but a few. sex was was never much of a physical thing to me. I can get a physical high all by myself (and mr. hand) as good as sex feels with a woman physically. but the act of love making with a woman far surpasses anything mr. hand can do.

it's about bonding emotionally, spiritually, physically, and that's what marriage should be.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> I think if she did not feel loved by you, the result could have been similar.
> 
> I feel lots of desire for Dug, and we have been together 23+ years. Honestly, as the kids get older and we have more time to spend together, it just gets better.
> 
> The key to our marriage is Dug. His emotional strength is the foundation of our relationship. If he were reactive or dependent on me, I don't think I would feel any desire for him.


So, if you had sex with Dug simply to service him, with no actual desire for him, he would be OK with that?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> So, if you had sex with Dug simply to service him, with no actual desire for him, he would be OK with that?


I'm sure he would. He's not picky.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> I'm sure he would. He's not picky.


....and you believe that if a man wants or needs "desire" from his wife to truly enjoy sex, he is a submissive?


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

jorgegene said:


> all the wisdom of 2 pages of posts perfectly boiled down to two sentences.
> 
> I have not had lots partners but a few. sex was was never much of a physical thing to me. *I can get a physical high all by myself (and mr. hand) as good as sex feels with a woman physically.* but the act of love making with a woman far surpasses anything mr. hand can do.
> 
> it's about bonding emotionally, spiritually, physically, and that's what marriage should be.


I must be doing it wrong then. Maybe you should write a how-to book.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> I must be doing it wrong then. Maybe you should write a how-to book.


https://www.amazon.com/Strengthener...qid=1470325994&sr=8-4&keywords=hand+exerciser


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> ....and you believe that if a man wants or needs "desire" from his wife to truly enjoy sex, he is a submissive?


If he needs it, I think so.

Replace "submissive" with "dependent." Now imagine a man who cannot, for example, get erect without desire, or other affirmation, from his wife. Does it all make more sense now?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> If he needs it, I think so.
> 
> Replace "submissive" with "dependent." Now imagine a man who cannot, for example, get erect without desire, or other affirmation, from his wife. Does it all make more sense now?


If I follow your logic, the less he needs desire from you, the more you like it? The less he needs desire from you, the more desire you have for him?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> If I follow your logic, the less he needs desire from you, the more you like it? The less he needs desire from you, the more desire you have for him?


I don't think he needs desire from me at all, UMP. 

Hearing that some men _do_ need desire, or other affirmation, from their wives was one of many shocking things I learned from reading on TAM.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Desire is important. Sex with a partner who is only doing it because they feel that they *should* would seem rather damaging to ones ego. 

Maybe I'm strange, but I want a woman to not be able to keep her hands off of me because I'm the most attractive, sexiest, most awesome lover she has ever had.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> I don't think he needs desire from me at all, UMP.
> 
> Hearing that some men _do_ need desire, or other affirmation, from their wives was one of many shocking things I learned from reading on TAM.


In your opinion, if a woman is a submissive, knowing that her husband wants or needs desire from her would be a turn off, correct?

If that is true, the best thing I could do (if my wife is a submissive) would be to not care one way or the other if my wife desired me.

It is interesting to note, that if I did tell my wife that I needed her to want me, it would most definitely turn her off.

Very interesting.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Desire is important. Sex with a partner who is only doing it because they feel that they *should* would seem rather damaging to ones ego.
> 
> Maybe I'm strange, but I want a woman to not be able to keep her hands off of me because I'm the most attractive, sexiest, most awesome lover she has ever had.


Yes, that's what I think too.
However, maybe for some women, needing that from her is a turn off. 
Perhaps the best way to get your wife to want you is to not need her to want you.

My mind just melted.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Desire is important. Sex with a partner who is only doing it because they feel that they *should* would seem rather damaging to ones ego.


And that is life-threatening how? 



> Maybe I'm strange, but I want a woman to not be able to keep her hands off of me because I'm the most attractive, sexiest, most awesome lover she has ever had.


Then become that for her. Then you will get that desire from her, and it will be genuine.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> In your opinion, if a woman is a submissive, knowing that her husband wants or needs desire from her would be a turn off, correct?
> 
> If that is true, the best thing I could do (if my wife is a submissive) would be to not care one way or the other if my wife desired me.
> 
> ...


My emotions do not deter Dug from sex, ever. I can be furious with him and he is still ready to go for it.

You know that thread in Men's recently, the one where the guys were talking about how they can't have sex if their wives are mad at them, or hurt their feelings, or some such? 

Dug could not believe that thread. He cannot relate at all.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> Yes, that's what I think too.
> However, maybe for some women, needing that from her is a turn off.
> Perhaps the best way to get your wife to want you is to not need her to want you.
> 
> My mind just melted.




I have to give you credit, UMP. You can hear a challenging idea . . . and not have a defensive temper tantrum from it.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> My emotions do not deter Dug from sex, ever. I can be furious with him and he is still ready to go for it.
> 
> You know that thread in Men's recently, the one where the guys were talking about how they can't have sex if their wives are mad at them, or hurt their feelings, or some such?
> 
> Dug could not believe that thread. He cannot relate at all.


This conversation is blowing my mind. At first I thought you were nuts, now, not so much.

So, the very best thing I can do is not "need" my wife to desire me sexually? Yes or No?

The more I can have great sex without needing her to desire me, the more she will actually desire me? Yes or No?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> This conversation is blowing my mind. At first I thought you were nuts, now, not so much.
> 
> So, the very best thing I can do is not "need" my wife to desire me sexually? Yes or No?
> 
> The more I can have great sex without needing her to desire me, the more she will actually desire me? Yes or No?


First of all, why did you think I was nuts?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> First of all, why did you think I was nuts?


It never occurred to me that me needing my wife to desire me was a bad thing.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> It never occurred to me that me needing my wife to desire me was a bad thing.


I don't think that it is a "bad" thing. And if a man is that way, he is that way. Probably cannot change.

I have warned that it can be a risk, though, depending on the type of woman you are with. I have said things along those lines many times on these boards.

The problem is that when I say something like that, some posters come rushing in to reassure the men that No, no, it is no problem to need desire from your wife, it does not make you dependent, you are still a dominant man, etc. 

I am sure they mean well. They don't want the men's egos to be hurt, I think. But I disagree with the truthfulness of it.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> I don't think that it is a "bad" thing. And if a man is that way, he is that way. Probably cannot change.
> 
> I have warned that it can be a risk, though, depending on the type of woman you are with. I have said things along those lines many times on these boards.
> 
> ...


I have always appreciated your honesty. I would much rather have the truth than protect my own ego. It's best.

You have given me much to think about. THANKS !!

The next logical question is how does one learn to not NEED his wife to desire him?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> I have always appreciated your honesty. I would much rather have the truth than protect my own ego. It's best.


You are one of the few and the brave, UMP. 



> You have given me much to think about. THANKS !!


My pleasure.



> The next logical question is how does one learn to not NEED his wife to desire him?


That's the thing. I don't know if it can be taught. People do need to be themselves, and some people are indeed emotional dependents. They might be better off just accepting themselves as they are, and learning to work within their natural inclinations.

But if they want to try to change . . . 

The main thing is to see where you are dependent on her. See how you could best reduce that dependence. Do you really need her to desire you? Isn't desiring her enough? 

Can you not reassure yourself? Do you really need her affirmation?

You need to build your inner security. You need to become emotionally independent. If you can.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> The main thing is to see where you are dependent on her. See how you could best reduce that dependence. Do you really need her to desire you? Isn't desiring her enough?
> 
> Can you not reassure yourself? Do you really need her affirmation?
> 
> You need to build your inner security. You need to become emotionally independent. If you can.


If I do this, I feel that I will be manipulating my wife.
If I am honest with myself, the only reason I would do this is to increase my wifes desire for me. Which is a very strange proposition. Kind of a catch-22.

In other words, if I learn not to "need" desire from my wife, my only reason for doing it is to gain her desire. Is that a legitimate goal to have?

Although, there is a difference between "needing" something and "wanting" something.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> If I do this, I feel that I will be manipulating my wife.
> If I am honest with myself, the only reason I would do this is to increase my wifes desire for me. Which is a very strange proposition. Kind of a catch-22.
> 
> In other words, if I learn not to "need" desire from my wife, my only reason for doing it is to gain her desire. Is that a legitimate goal to have?
> ...


UMP. What have you done regarding your sex life in the last few years that has _not_ been manipulative? 

I think developing your inner security and not needing her desire anymore could be the first _non-manipulative_ thing!

If becoming emotionally independent seems too hard, don't do it. But do go to her and explain that you need her to desire you. Just be upfront and honest about it. See if she will work with you on it.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

I absolutely want my w to desire me. I am the opposite of submissive and probably "emotionally lead" as some here would say but I'm not emotional (once you exclude mad, angry, etc which I believe are natural male traits associated with getting things done and leading). But I do chose to be happy most of the time, so that means cutting negative and thick headed people out if my life.

Frankly I don't care how my w sees my need to be desired by her. I think it is a normal, healthy male trait - probably a bit alpha - to demand this in a mate. Otherwise what's the point? I'd look for a different mate who would desire me.

Doesn't seem to complex to me..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> UMP. What have you done regarding your sex life in the last few years that has _not_ been manipulative?
> 
> I think developing your inner security and not needing her desire anymore could be the first _non-manipulative_ thing!
> 
> If becoming emotionally independent seems too hard, don't do it. But do go to her and explain that you need her to desire you. Just be upfront and honest about it. See if she will work with you on it.


Good point!

I know my wife. The WORST thing I could ever do is to tell my wife that I need her to desire me. Immediate fail.

Actually, I have been working on this without even knowing what I was doing. One of the very big reasons why sex has been so great lately is because I never act like I need it as much as I used to.

I think I just had a light bulb moment !


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I absolutely want my w to desire me. I am the opposite of submissive and probably "emotionally lead" as some here would say but I'm not emotional (once you exclude mad, angry, etc which I believe are natural male traits associated with getting things done and leading). But I do chose to be happy most of the time, so that means cutting negative and thick headed people out if my life.
> 
> Frankly I don't care how my w sees my need to be desired by her. I think it is a normal, healthy male trait - probably a bit alpha - to demand this in a mate. Otherwise what's the point? I'd look for a different mate who would desire me.
> 
> ...


I think what JLD is getting at is that there is a big difference between wanting something and needing something.
Wanting my wife to desire me is great. Needing it is probably not so great.

Come to think of it, the less I need my wife for anything, the more she wants to give everything.

I want a Ferrari. Why? Because they are cool cars and I love driving.

I don't need a Ferrari. Why? Because I just don't.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

UMP said:


> I think what JLD is getting at is that there is a big difference between wanting something and needing something.
> Wanting my wife to desire me is great. Needing it is probably not so great.
> 
> Come to think of it, the less I need my wife for anything, the more she wants to give everything.




UMP I'm going to disagree here. Replace my want with need. Yes I do need it clearly.

The only difference is I will leave if that need isn't met. If I would stay with that need not being met - that's weak and probably unattractive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> I think what JLD is getting at is that there is a big difference between wanting something and needing something.
> Wanting my wife to desire me is great. Needing it is probably not so great.
> 
> Come to think of it, *the less I need my wife for anything, the more she wants to give everything*.


Of course. People generally like to be able to give out of their own free will, not out of coercion. 

Inspire her, UMP!


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> UMP I'm going to disagree here. Replace my want with need. Yes I do need it clearly.
> 
> The only difference is I will leave if that need isn't met. If I would stay with that need not being met - that's weak and probably unattractive.
> 
> ...


I think the key here is the way one goes about getting those needs and wants met.

If I walked up to my wife today and asked her "honey, I need you to show more desire for me" it would immediately turn off her desire for me. Just a simple fact.

You may indeed need desire from your wife. However, maybe the best way to get that is to never let your wife know that you actually need it.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I think there's a lot of difference between needing a woman to desire you to fill an emotional void vs needing your partner to desire you to make you feel desire yourself. 

The thought of having sex with someone who is angry with me and doesn't actually desire sex is not appealing to me whatsoever. 

I'm rapidly falling in to the "fvck yes, or fvck no" camp.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

jld said:


> Mr. Nail, did you say once that you are a male submissive? I thought I read that once. That would make sense to me with your need to be desired.


Yes I'm a male submissive.



jld said:


> I don't think he needs desire from me at all, UMP.
> 
> Hearing that some men _do_ need desire, or other affirmation, from their wives was one of many shocking things I learned from reading on TAM.


His Needs, Her Needs, lists admiration as a top male emotional need. If we substitute the word "admiration" for the word "desire" we would see that you do admire Dug in buckets and spades. And most men would find that kind of admiration very fulfilling to their need for admiration or Desire"

I don't think The need to be desired is that unusual. I don't think it is a submissive trait, it is way too common to be so. Now is it unattractive to women? Perhaps, but then again a woman's need for financial security is unattractive to many men. They see it as gold digging.



jld said:


> The key to our marriage is Dug. His emotional strength is the foundation of our relationship. If he were reactive or dependent on me, I don't think I would feel any desire for him.


This marks you as a very lazy submissive. While you preach self sufficiency to men you eschew it for yourself. Of course I am a much different flavor of submissive, than you. I challenge my dominants regularly. I "need" lots of proof.

And just to prove that this really is on topic. Our OP is facing a situation where his partner is rejecting an important part of him. This makes him feel less desired (sexually admired). He sees this as something he may not be able to live without. The reason behind his feeling that hopefully his partner will understand is that his emotional need #1 or #2 or Both is not getting met. He can't replace that with c0ckyness and bravado. If you fill your own emotional needs you have no need of a relationship, and the relationship is only a painful reminder of what once was. 

She may think that the power of the gatekeeper outweighs the potential of losing him. this is a risky proposition.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Agreed Mr Nail. Need for desire is not necessarily a submissive trait. 

Look at it from the perspective of another concept that gets bandied about--that of Responsive Desire. 

With an RD person, they need to feel their partner's desire before their own will wake up. Does that automatically make them submissive? Not at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> Yes I'm a male submissive.


MN, there is nothing submissive about wanting to be desired. And there is nothing wrong with being a sub.


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## oskar (Aug 4, 2016)

Tell her she's more than welcome to stop having sex, but you will not.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

UMP said:


> If I do this, I feel that I will be manipulating my wife. If I am honest with myself, the only reason I would do this is to increase my wifes desire for me. Which is a very strange proposition. Kind of a catch-22.


I agree with jld that you are already maxxing out the manipulative meter, so no need to worry that pursuing less need would be too manipulative.

I think if you actually learn not to need her approval as much, it may play out differently than perhaps you (or she) expects.

Right now I imagine you need her in part because "getting" her provides a huge emotional payoff. Not just from the sex. But the ego rush of obtaining her consent and bringing her to orgasm.

I think you would stop needing her when you start to feel bad about getting such an ego rush from these behaviors. When you start to see it as a flaw or weakness in yourself. At that point, you will get less and less of a rush from "winning". I predict that, as the rush from winning decreases, so will the need.

Your wife may find the new less needy UMP more attractive. However, I am not sure it will lead the UMPs to have more sex. You may find you are less interested in maintaining the vigilant exercise and pharmaceutical regimen. You may find you are less interested in making all the little compromises that help her remain open to the idea of having sex. Less payoff means less motivation to invest in the process. She may start chasing you. If you can avoid becoming vindictive in your rejections, you may find that this is a wonderful opportunity for the 2 of you to become more intimate and more understanding of each other.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> Yes I'm a male submissive.
> 
> His Needs, Her Needs, lists admiration as a top male emotional need. If we substitute the word "admiration" for the word "desire" we would see that you do admire Dug in buckets and spades. And most men would find that kind of admiration very fulfilling to their need for admiration or Desire"


I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting it. But I think it has to be earned. 

I could not make myself admire Dug. And if he came to me and said he had a need to be admired, that I would somehow be expected to meet on command, we would both just laugh.  We know that is not how it works!



> I don't think The need to be desired is that unusual. I don't think it is a submissive trait, it is way too common to be so. Now is it unattractive to women? Perhaps, but then again a woman's need for financial security is unattractive to many men. They see it as gold digging.


I don't know how usual it is or not. It seems very common on TAM for men to want to be desired. I know Dug does not need it, and I was very surprised to read it treated like some sort of universal truth here.

I don't think a dominant male, one who takes responsibility for the relationship, minds providing for a female. 



> This marks you as a very lazy submissive. While you preach self sufficiency to men you eschew it for yourself. Of course I am a much different flavor of submissive, than you. I challenge my dominants regularly. I "need" lots of proof.


What kind of proof do you need? Of what?



> And just to prove that this really is on topic. Our OP is facing a situation where his partner is rejecting an important part of him. This makes him feel less desired (sexually admired). He sees this as something he may not be able to live without. The reason behind his feeling that hopefully his partner will understand is that his emotional need #1 or #2 or Both is not getting met. He can't replace that with c0ckyness and bravado. If you fill your own emotional needs you have no need of a relationship, and the relationship is only a painful reminder of what once was.


I don't think he should be false in any way. He has been clear about his needs and they will have to see if they can find a way to be happy together.



> She may think that the power of the gatekeeper outweighs the potential of losing him. this is a risky proposition.


I did not get that feeling from his posts. It sounds to me like she has been honest about what she can provide, just like he has been honest about what he needs. They may always love each other, but just be coming to terms with their sexual (in)compatibility.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Not life threatening, but we are talking about enjoying life, not surviving. Surviving I had down a long long time ago, I'm playing for extra credit points now. 



Sadly not possible. I suspect that no real human exists that would cause her to feel that way. 



jld said:


> And that is life-threatening how?
> 
> 
> 
> Then become that for her. Then you will get that desire from her, and it will be genuine.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Not life threatening, but we are talking about enjoying life, not surviving. Surviving I had down a long long time ago, I'm playing for extra credit points now.
> 
> Sadly not possible. I suspect that no real human exists that would cause her to feel that way.


I think genuineness is (nearly) always possible. Why would you want anything else?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

As an example:

I don't need anything from my wife. If she walks out the door today, I will wish her well and get on with my life. 

I like being with my wife, so I would prefer if she didn't leave. 

I don't need my wife to desire me sexually. I would like my wife to desire me sexually. Sex without her desire is uninteresting. I do not believe there is anything I can do to cause her to desire me. (there is no evidence that she has ever desired anyone). 

I would like a good sex life, but will accept a poor one if that is the only way to stay with my wife.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> As an example:
> 
> I don't need anything from my wife. If she walks out the door today, I will wish her well and get on with my life.
> 
> ...


Do you have a thread here? Does it say what you have tried?


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

So she had a sex drive early in your marriage, which means something has changed. Probably this:

Why Women Leave Men They Love: What Every Man Needs to Know

There is an old saying that Men need Sex to Love and Women Need Love for Sex. Seems your W fits that model.

Good luck.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

@jld , Thanks for the followup. I think we are close on at least an understanding on this. 
You asked a few questions. Direct and implied.
While it is true that I have asked for admiration / desire, What I have really asked is for verbal confirmation of an emotion I believe already exists. or as HNHN would say "words of affirmation". Yes I don't need fake admiration, or lies. No one does.
I don't like relationships where one party takes all responsibility. I'm not sure how you make it work, but I do believe that you do make it work, very well.
As to what kinds of proofs I need, well that leads very off topic and I would be happy to discuss it with you elsewhere.
One other thing you said , but not to me, that shook me pretty badly. You asked how an assault on a persons ego was life threatening. You have so much confidence in Dug that you can't imagine a wounded ego. Ego is self. You attack that you attack the person, body, spirit, and soul. Yes people do die from this. Relationships die easier.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its a long, not very interesting story, discussed to death in other places. 

The quick summary is that she is just extremely low sexual desire - for me, for anyone. Its my fault that I didn't recognize the incompatibility for what it was early in the relationship. We do very well together in other ways, its just unfortunate that this part is mostly missing.






jld said:


> Do you have a thread here? Does it say what you have tried?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> @jld , Thanks for the followup. I think we are close on at least an understanding on this.
> You asked a few questions. Direct and implied.
> While it is true that I have asked for admiration / desire, What I have really asked is for verbal confirmation of an emotion I believe already exists. or as HNHN would say "words of affirmation". Yes I don't need fake admiration, or lies. No one does.
> I don't like relationships where one party takes all responsibility. I'm not sure how you make it work, but I do believe that you do make it work, very well.
> ...


It might be good to discuss it elsewhere. I don't know if OP is coming back, but we should probably get the focus back on him. Not that he cannot learn a lot from what has been discussed this afternoon.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

sapientia said:


> So she had a sex drive early in your marriage, which means something has changed. Probably this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I like that link but even that isn't very accessible for many men.

I'd add - text back even if your busy. Step out if a meeting if she calls. Make her attempt to contact you - even while your working - your top priority.

Ask about the family visit or holiday party she's hosting - men often have no idea the emotional stress these things create.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

sapientia said:


> So she had a sex drive early in your marriage, which means something has changed. Probably this:
> 
> Why Women Leave Men They Love: What Every Man Needs to Know
> 
> ...


Nice article but I am the opposite. She gets more attention from me than she would like. Maybe it's because i have no friends.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

jld said:


> It might be good to discuss it elsewhere. I don't know if OP is coming back, but we should probably get the focus back on him. Not that he cannot learn a lot from what has been discussed this afternoon.


I don't need to be the focus on this thread. I am here to learn from your experiences so please feel free expand on whatever comes to mind. I would very much enjoy in chiming in real-time but haven't had the opportunity. And the focus here is positive and not about scheduling an appointment with a lawyer.
The topic about needing is very relevant for my marriage. It is actually her big complaint against me. That I am needy, like a 3rd child. Which is unfair. She withholds sex, then tells me I am needy, a sex craving addict. Sure, withhold food and then accuse him of obsession with hunger. I am not in the stage where I need her to desire me. I need her to be available for sex and willing. (It would be great if she has desire for me during sex at some point.) She should just do it for me although she is not passionate about it. Just like I go to work every day. I don't sprint to work with passion. I do it because it is necessary and I can find joy going to work. 
I don't blame her for having low desire for sex with me. Although she cites perimenopause and hormones as possible medical reasons, but it is also on me. I should do what I can to get her to desire me. (It's true, attractive women don't chase after me in the supermarket or when I'm walking on the street.) On the other hand, I need her to put effort in making time for intimacy because i need intimacy of some form with my wife. And I think it is still possible. (optimism, different from realism)


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I think you are at a crossroads. She's laid down the gauntlet.
> 
> I STRONGLY suggest you read His Needs Her Needs. It will point out that desiring sex, an attractive wife, etc are VALID needs for a guy. In fact sex is the number 1 need for men. And it's how many men connect emotionally with women.
> 
> ...


Thanks for suggestion, my library has several copies.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

bilbag said:


> That I am needy, like a 3rd child. Which is unfair. She withholds sex, then tells me I am needy, a sex craving addict.


It's funny, but I was thinking how needy you were and how unattractive that is for most women when I read the above statement. I was *not *surprised at all to find out I was right on the money.

Needy = weak.

Weak = unattractive.

It's elementary.

You have no friends, probably no hobbies, and basically look to HER for all your fulfillment in life. She said it herself - you're like a 3rd child she has to tend to, so I'm not making incorrect assumptions here.

She's not withholding sex to 'punish' you. It basically sounds as though she's completely turned off to you. Your neediness is completely unappealing to her and it's shut her down romantically. Who can feel sexy toward a man you view as yet just another needy child you have to take care of? No woman I know.



> I am not in the stage where I need her to desire me. I need her to be available for sex and willing.


Do you realize how gross and self-absorbed this comment is? You basically want your wife to willingly lay down and let you use her to get off whenever you get the itch. _That's_ what you're saying. Go buy yourself a Real Doll or something.



> She should just do it for me although she is not passionate about it.


She's probably been doing that for a good while, now. Only she knows why, but it's possible she's just gotten to a point where she just can't do it anymore.



> I don't blame her for having low desire for sex with me.


Yet, you expect her to jump around like a trained seal whenever you want sex. You don't know much about women, do you?

If it's NOT in their brains, it's not in their bodies.

She didn't get this way by herself. She didn't just wake up one morning and wonder how she could make you miserable and decided, "I know! I'll withhold sex to drive him crazy!" That's ludicrous. This situation created itself over time.

You want her to desire you? Stop looking at her as some kind of masturbatory aid for you to get your jollies with, for starters. And that statement you made about needing her to be available to you for sex even if she doesn't want it implies EXACTLY that.

You need to get a life. Yes, get a life. Get your OWN life that doesn't involve looking to HER for all your entertainment and fulfillment and company and everything else. That's on YOU, not her. And when she's telling you that you're just *another *needy child pulling on her skirt hem, then you need to LISTEN to what she's telling you. Get some friends. Get a new hobby. Join a club. Do something that says "I'm a grown man with my *own* interests," instead of clinging to her skirt looking for attention. That's SO damned unappealing.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

I've been thinking about this wanting and needing desire from ones wife stuff.
To me it's just a game. I thought the game would end once married. That's probably the single biggest mistake men make after getting married.

I'm married, why do I need to try to chase my wife? 25 years in and we're still playing the game.
It's not as if I can't count on my wife to be there during the hard times. We have had plenty of those with our mentally handicapped child and my heart attack.

However, regarding sex, the games are still on. Do I want and need my wife to desire me? Probably always have. However, during this game we play, if I let her know that I NEED her to desire me, I have lost the game. We men need to become better players of this game. TAM is major league ball and I'm learning to become a better player every day.

Sex is supposed to be fun. Let's all MAKE it fun. If I have to learn to hide my need for my wife to desire me in order for her to actually desire me, so be it. 

Sex is tonight and I'm lacing up!


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

Ouch! You're rougher and tougher than my wife.








I do have a few good qualities.


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## DoctorSane (Jul 8, 2016)

bilbag said:


> The topic about needing is very relevant for my marriage. It is actually her big complaint against me. That I am needy, like a 3rd child. Which is unfair. She withholds sex, then tells me I am needy, a sex craving addict. Sure, withhold food and then accuse him of obsession with hunger.


When wife-mommy doesn't give you a sex cookie, her widdle baby thinks it's so unfair! Neediness is gross. You know what an unscrupulous salesman loves to see? A needy schmuck. You know what a worthwhile woman can't stand? A needy schmuck.



> I am not in the stage where I need her to desire me. I need her to be available for sex and willing. (It would be great if she has desire for me during sex at some point.) She should just do it for me although she is not passionate about it. Just like I go to work every day. I don't sprint to work with passion. I do it because it is necessary and I can find joy going to work.


Hey, baby, don't forget: sex is a job!



> I don't blame her for having low desire for sex with me. Although she cites perimenopause and hormones as possible medical reasons, but *it is also on me. I should do what I can to get her to desire me.*


There's a nugget of truth in this pile of victim puke. Maybe the guy's not totally hopeless.



> (It's true, attractive women don't chase after me in the supermarket or when I'm walking on the street.)


If other women don't want you, what makes you think your wife is going to have any interest in schtupping you? You know what turns a heckuva lot of women on? Knowing that you could have other women, but choose to be with her. 



> On the other hand, I need her to put effort in making time for intimacy because i need intimacy of some form with my wife.


Ohh, ohh, ohh, if you do X, I'll do Y! No need to improve myself and make myself desirable because I actually care about myself and the quality of my own existence. I derive my value only from my wife-mommy's vagina. You have no independent existence at all, so you have nothing of value to offer her. Yeah, sexy. I can't imagine why she isn't hopping on your knob at every opportunity. 



> And I think it is still possible. (optimism, different from realism)


Lift, read NMMNG and MMSLP, and STFU about your emotional owies and just how badly you need sex. Stop chasing her and making sex into something she has to do for you, and make yourself into the fun, fit, awesome guy she wants to chase after. You don't need to become a bodybuilder and a captain of industry for that (unless your wife has unreasonable expectations), but you do have to put yourself closer to the top tier of men than the bottom tier. Maybe your wife has a hormonal problem, maybe there's something else on her end that's nerfing her libido. But from what I can tell from your posts here, she's responding in a totally understandable way to you. And if you improve yourself a bunch and she doesn't come around, then you'll be in great position to take the next step in dealing with your situation.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

DoctorSane said:


> If other women don't want you, what makes you think your wife is going to have any interest in schtupping you? You know what turns a heckuva lot of women on? Knowing that you could have other women, but choose to be with her.
> 
> Lift, read NMMNG and MMSLP, and STFU about your emotional owies and just how badly you need sex. Stop chasing her and making sex into something she has to do for you, and make yourself into the fun, fit, awesome guy she wants to chase after. You don't need to become a bodybuilder and a captain of industry for that (unless your wife has unreasonable expectations), but you do have to put yourself closer to the top tier of men than the bottom tier. Maybe your wife has a hormonal problem, maybe there's something else on her end that's nerfing her libido. But from what I can tell from your posts here, she's responding in a totally understandable way to you. And if you improve yourself a bunch and she doesn't come around, then you'll be in great position to take the next step in dealing with your situation.


Or not. But realize that if you are not willing to do the work on a daily basis to inspire and "earn" her desire, then it is your own fault you are not getting any sex.

I made the opposite choice from UMP. I stopped playing the game. We no longer have sex and I am free to get off the treadmill of constantly working to earn her desire. Many would call me a wimpy loser. I would not say they are wrong. But I console myself that I am free.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> Or not. But realize that if you are not willing to do the work on a daily basis to inspire and "earn" her desire, then it is your own fault you are not getting any sex.
> 
> I made the opposite choice from UMP. I stopped playing the game. We no longer have sex and I am free to get off the treadmill of constantly working to earn her desire. Many would call me a wimpy loser. I would not say they are wrong. But I console myself that I am free.


I never said I was not willing to inspire her. I take partial responsibility for the sexless marriage and willing to put effort in fixing the problem. However I expect the same from her.

UMP's situation turned out well. But that is his situation. You have yours and I have mine. You choose to stay and no longer pursue sex. I don't see it as a wrong or right decision, or wimpy or strong. It is the choice that is best for you. Others here have said they cannot stay if there is no sex and that is what is best for them. And the planet spins about its axis just fine.


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## kingsman (Aug 6, 2016)

Sometimes if you try too hard to please it backfires. Especially if you come across as being insincere. 

Meet her needs. Exceed her expectations. But don't be over the top about it, that's just not going to win you any points and even if it does you'll burn yourself out in the process of trying to make your life better.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

kingsman said:


> Sometimes if you try too hard to please it backfires. Especially if you come across as being insincere.
> 
> Meet her needs. Exceed her expectations. But don't be over the top about it, that's just not going to win you any points and even if it does you'll burn yourself out in the process of trying to make your life better.


We've been together for 22yrs, similar to your previous marriage. And I am kind of tired. I don't think I can try too hard. But we are definitely sincere with one another. I am a member of another marriage forum and most of the active posters there get divorce. So there is a lot of support there for those going through divorce. When both partners aren't putting a great effort in keeping the marriage together, it won't last. I am hoping my w and I can keep ours together, because neither of us want a divorce.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> It's funny, but I was thinking how needy you were and how unattractive that is for most women when I read the above statement. I was *not *surprised at all to find out I was right on the money.
> 
> Needy = weak.
> 
> ...


 @bilbag

A lot of that was brutal, but do not ignore the above portions.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> @bilbag
> 
> A lot of that was brutal, but do not ignore the above portions.


I did not ignore it. A lot of it is over-exaggerated in its application to my relationship with my wife though. But I don't expect anyone to understand my situation by reading a few paragraphs. And it's hard to know people without actually meeting them. 
What is really helpful is how the posters' experiences relate to mine and what they did to achieve results. I haven't gotten around to reading her stories yet though. Others have been kind enough to relate their experiences here in this thread.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> But realize that if you are not willing to do the work on a daily basis to inspire and "earn" her desire, then it is your own fault you are not getting any sex.


Totally agree with this.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Does a woman need to work daily on inspiring her partner's desire?

If not, why? Why isn't it equal need to inspire each other?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Does a woman need to work daily on inspiring her partner's desire?
> 
> If not, why? Why isn't it equal need to inspire each other?


If he is a male submissive, I would think she would need to inspire his desire. She might need to reassure him, make him feel safe and comfortable with her, able to trust her, whatever he needs to "get there."

A lot of these male subs, as I see them, anyway, need the woman to feel desire for them in order for them to feel satisfied, or even to get erect.

If the couple are more evenly matched in terms of power, say each is half submissive, half dominant, for example, then I think you would be right that each might need to take responsibility for inspiring the other.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Does a woman need to work daily on inspiring her partner's desire?
> 
> If not, why? Why isn't it equal need to inspire each other?


No, because desire tends to be more spontaneous in men than in women.

And I suspect also because most men find a substantial percentage of women sexually attractive, whereas most women find only a small percentage of men so sexually attractive that it triggers her spontaneous desire. Which results in many couples facing the situation where the guy has spontaneous desire and the woman does not.

So it isn't necessarily that women have lower desire for sex than men, but that most women find themselves with a partner who does not trigger her spontaneous desire (which would immediately leap into full molten lava level of desire if Chris Hemsworth nodded his head toward the bedroom), whereas a much higher percentage of men are paired with a woman who triggers his spontaneous desire. Hence the common statement that the problem is not that she isn't into sex, but she isn't into sex with him.


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## kingsman (Aug 6, 2016)

Which ever partner is in danger of losing their partner needs to step up their game.

Could be the man or the woman.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Also, seems in more cases the man marries the hottest woman who is willing to have sex with him on a regular basis, and sacrifices other characteristics to get hotness. Women seem more willing to accept less hotness in favor of financial considerations, co-parenting, stability, etc. So you end up with a guy marrying the hottest gal willing to date him long term and the woman marrying a guy who is NOT the hottest or best in bed she ever had. Not shocking that over time the gal falls out of lust before the guy does. So in most cases the guy needs to work daily on inspiring his partner's desire.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> Also, seems in more cases the man marries the hottest woman who is willing to have sex with him on a regular basis, and sacrifices other characteristics to get hotness. Women seem more willing to accept less hotness in favor of financial considerations, co-parenting, stability, etc. So you end up with a guy marrying the hottest gal willing to date him long term and the woman marrying a guy who is NOT the hottest or best in bed she ever had. Not shocking that over time the gal falls out of lust before the guy does. So in most cases the guy needs to work daily on inspiring his partner's desire.




Hmmmm that's a very sad assessment and one I'm not familiar with. But maybe that's your experience.

I married the best person for me - that I really liked. We're opposites - she's controlled, likes to keep a low profile, doesn't like anything extreme, wasn't raised to talk or think about sex, etc. I'm none of these things. But we like each other and want the other to be happy. We're pleasant around each other and would never disparage each other around others. We rarely fight. That makes us opposite but compatible. Oh and I'm a complete horn dog and she's always known that so its her problem if she can't deal with it (she deals with it fine BTW). Oh and I find her very sexually appealing and vice versa. So some people get lucky and marry for NOT the wrong reasons (sorry I don't know what the right reasons are).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I haven't seen that among my friends. Some of them made very bad choices, but not for that reason. 




Holdingontoit said:


> Also, seems in more cases the man marries the hottest woman who is willing to have sex with him on a regular basis, and sacrifices other characteristics to get hotness. Women seem more willing to accept less hotness in favor of financial considerations, co-parenting, stability, etc. So you end up with a guy marrying the hottest gal willing to date him long term and the woman marrying a guy who is NOT the hottest or best in bed she ever had. Not shocking that over time the gal falls out of lust before the guy does. So in most cases the guy needs to work daily on inspiring his partner's desire.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> If he is a male submissive, I would think she would need to inspire his desire. She might need to reassure him, make him feel safe and comfortable with her, able to trust her, whatever he needs to "get there."
> 
> A lot of these male subs, as I see them, anyway, need the woman to feel desire for them in order for them to feel satisfied, or even to get erect.
> 
> If the couple are more evenly matched in terms of power, say each is half submissive, half dominant, for example, then I think you would be right that each might need to take responsibility for inspiring the other.


Wait. Are we talking about Sub as in BDSM? Isn't that the context this word is used? What you described has nothing to do with what a sub is.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Wait. Are we talking about Sub as in BDSM? Isn't that the context this word is used? What you described has nothing to do with what a sub is.


I am using it in the context of an emotionally dependent (submissive) male.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> I am using it in the context of an emotionally dependent (submissive) male.


Submissive does not mean emotionally dependent. Did the poster you are talking about ever describe himself as emotionally dependent? If he did, carry on. But in any case, you should use that term if that is the term you mean. Because submissive does NOT mean emotionally dependent.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Submissive does not mean emotionally dependent. Did the poster you are talking about ever describe himself as emotionally dependent? If he did, carry on. But in any case, you should use that term if that is the term you mean. Because submissive does NOT mean emotionally dependent.


Okay, we may see that differently.

NS, you realize I was answering Livvie's question, right? It was a general question, to me, iirc. 

The OP had said earlier that anyone was free to share their thoughts, whatever came to mind. Why do you feel the need to step in and try to define the limits of the conversation when he himself did not?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> Okay, we may see that differently.
> 
> NS, you realize I was answering Livvie's question, right? It was a general question, to me, iirc.
> 
> The OP had said earlier that anyone was free to share their thoughts, whatever came to mind. Why do you feel the need to step in and try to define the limits of the conversation when he himself did not?


I wanted to know what you were talking about. And then when it became clear that you were misusing a word, I thought you would want to know.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wanted to know what you were talking about. And then when it became clear that you were misusing a word, I thought you would want to know.




She doesn't understand Dom/sub relationships. That the sub has all the power in such relationships.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wanted to know what you were talking about. And then when it became clear that you were misusing a word, I thought you would want to know.


Again, we may have a different understanding of the word. "Misuse" may be in the eye of the beholder.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> She doesn't understand Dom/sub relationships. That the sub has all the power in such relationships.


I understand that is one way of viewing it. I do think it is only one way, though.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> Again, we may have a different understanding of the word. "Misuse" may be in the eye of the beholder.


Ok. Whatever. Most words have actual definitions.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> She doesn't understand Dom/sub relationships. That the sub has all the power in such relationships.


I don't think so. I mean, she could just look up the word. She WANTS to believe that sub means emotionally needy and that is bad for men.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't think so. I mean, she could just look up the word. She WANTS to believe that sub means emotionally needy and that is bad for men.




Brrhahahaha

A lot of subs WOULD have to be needed by their spouses... As in being subject to humiliation... being tied up... being denied orgasm... being mocked... maybe a little candle wax.... or a nice tight ball and gag... or a hot rubber suit... or a nice light spanking with just a few sore spots to enjoy the next morning...

Oh wait maybe ball and gag has a different meaning too 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't think so. I mean, she could just look up the word. She WANTS to believe that sub means emotionally needy and that is bad for men.


I think it is always risky for anyone to give their power to someone else, which is what I think submissive means. 

But it may just be the way it is, and so then we want to make it as safe as possible for everyone. That is my goal, anyway.


Okay, just looked it up:

_sub·mis·sive
səbˈmisiv/Submit
adjective
ready to conform to the authority or will of others; meekly obedient or passive.
synonyms:	compliant, yielding, acquiescent, unassertive, passive, obedient, biddable, dutiful, docile, pliant_

If we are going right by the dictionary, WOM, where do you get "has all the power" from this?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> I think it is always risky for anyone to give their power to someone else, which is what I think submissive means.


That it does, sort of. But it is not emotional power. It is sexual play power. And it does not represent being needy.



> But it may just be the way it is, and so then we want to make it as safe as possible for everyone. That is my goal, anyway.
> 
> 
> Okay, just looked it up:
> ...


I never said anything about power. But ceding sexual power does not have anything to do with being "emotionally dependent".


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> That it does, sort of. But it is not emotional power. It is sexual play power. And it does not represent being needy.
> 
> I never said anything about power. But ceding sexual power does not have anything to do with being "emotionally dependent".


Okay, I think I see the disconnect now. You are referring to BDSM exclusively, no? 

I am talking about general power dynamics in relationships, period.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> WorkingOnMe said:
> 
> 
> > She doesn't understand Dom/sub relationships. That the sub has all the power in such relationships.
> ...


I understand exactly what JLD was saying. She was using the term submissive in an everyday way (not referencing the dom/sub community). And for the record, a man who is extremely emotionally needy is hard to have a relationship with because every action and reaction is driven by his feelings of neediness.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> Okay, I think I see the disconnect now. You are referring to BDSM exclusively, no?
> 
> I am talking about general power dynamics in relationships, period.


No. Choosing to cede power just does not equate to emotional dependence in any sphere.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> No. Choosing to cede power just does not equate to emotional dependence in any sphere.


I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

UMP said:


> This conversation is blowing my mind. At first I thought you were nuts, now, not so much.
> 
> So, the very best thing I can do is not "need" my wife to desire me sexually? * Yes or No?*
> 
> The more I can have great sex without needing her to desire me, the more she will actually desire me? * Yes or No?*


Wow, @UMP, do you see what you did here^^. You actually asked jld to give you step by step instructions as to what to do to get your wife to desire you.

@jld and UMP, you do realize that complete transparent honesty would forbid these types of machinations. Total transparent, honest, courageous dialog would consist of UMP approaching Mrs. UMP and telling her how bad he needs her to want him, how it drives him crazy that she is lukewarm, how much he jelqs, chugs Cialis, lifts weights, watches porn for "ideas"----to get her to desire him.

---------------------------------------------------------------


@bilbag don't worry; unless you are a rock star, random women will not chase after you in grocery store parking lots. You really got a drubbing here; and you were very accepting of it.

Maybe your wife does view you as a child. I dunno, do you work full time and do your share of the household stuff (if she works------if she stays home all day, you shouldn't have to do anything really)

Children don't do those things^^^^.

You sound kinda sweet to me. But it is verboten for men to have emotional needs, apparently. So much for equal rights for the sexes.

Anything major you didn't share? Do you have a hard drive full of porn that she discovered and is repulsed by. Did you buy a boat and now you guys are up to your necks in debt and she's scared to death financially. Did you cheat in the past. Do you have a drug habit.????? 
=======================================

@Holdingontoit you give such wise advice. Or maybe not advice, more like insights. And I sometimes find them quite profound. And it's so ironic to me that the person who has had such a miserable time with sex and marriage; should be able to make some of the best observations. Of course, maybe that's why you can do it. Just like your own perverse nature; perversely, people who are deprived of sex and are becoming desiccated spiritually, are compensated by having the most accurate perceptions about it. 


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\


@Mr. Nail Get in the kitchen and make me a sammich.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I have advised him to do that several times, notmyrealname. I think I even did it earlier in this thread. 

He has refused, every time.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Wow, @UMP, do you see what you did here^^. You actually asked jld to give you step by step instructions as to what to do to get your wife to desire you.
> 
> @jld and UMP, you do realize that complete transparent honesty would forbid these types of machinations. Total transparent, honest, courageous dialog would consist of UMP approaching Mrs. UMP and telling her how bad he needs her to want him, how it drives him crazy that she is lukewarm, how much he jelqs, chugs Cialis, lifts weights, watches porn for "ideas"----to get her to desire him.
> 
> ...


I've stayed back because I am enjoying and learning from the conversation you guys are having. Members here are great.  
And I am an introvert and shy in nature. I appreciate the kind words, @notmyrealname4. The drubbing is OK. I am getting over it... :crying: 

I have a decent job and my wife is a stay at home mom, we are blessed with 2 kids (12,15). I do all the guy chores at home...electrical, plumbing, mechanical, garbage, mowing; plus the dishwashing Fri-Sun. She takes care of the kids, grocery, cooking, cleaning, laundry, paying bills. I don't do porn (OK, a little), never cheated (consequence of my non-rockstar status and hobbit-like stature, 5'5"....if I have to do again, I would marry a 6' girl and have kids 5'9" tall), financially stable (so far), no drug habit (got no friends to do with). 

She is Japanese and culturally thinks it is past the age for having sex. Her body is definitely not past the age for having sex. She's hot and she wants it cold.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Wow, @UMP, do you see what you did here^^. You actually asked jld to give you step by step instructions as to what to do to get your wife to desire you.
> 
> @jld and UMP, you do realize that complete transparent honesty would forbid these types of machinations. Total transparent, honest, courageous dialog would consist of UMP approaching Mrs. UMP and telling her how bad he needs her to want him, how it drives him crazy that she is lukewarm, how much he jelqs, chugs Cialis, lifts weights, watches porn for "ideas"----to get her to desire him.


You are exactly 100% correct. However, if I were to be completely "transparent" my wife would end up NEVER having sex with me again.

I do know that my gentle covert manipulation regarding sex and desire has made my wife and I enjoy sex like never before. I actually lust after her like a 16 year old boy in home room who can't stand up after the bell rings cause he's got a monster boner going.

Sometimes you just gotta do what ya gotta do.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> I have advised him to do that several times, notmyrealname. I think I even did it earlier in this thread.
> 
> He has refused, every time.


When I first got married 25 years ago, I indeed thought that transparency was where it's at. I was going to be myself, warts and all. If I had a problem, I told her exactly how I felt.
Where did that get me? I'll tell you.

Sex got worse and worse. The best description would be starfish duty sex. What did I do? More transparency, talk about it, tell her how you feel. What happened? It got worse.

Four years ago I decided to change. If it were up to me and me alone, I would be sitting on the couch and eating doritos till my heart's content. Instead I lost 50 pounds. Not for me, but to attract my wife again. Even that insignificant act in and of itself is manipulation, because I only did it to get her wet. Truth.

Was it wrong of me to lose weight if my hidden motivation was only to manipulate my wife? I say no. Why? Because the end result is good for both of us.

BTW. When I started losing weight the first thing that came into my wifes mind was that I was cheating on her. Did I discourage her thinking? Yes but also no. Is that manipulation? Hell yes it is. Where did it get me? It got me in her pants and along the way, she learned to love sex again, with me.

In this particular case I believe the end justifies the means.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Let me give you another example:
I used to say "I love you" every single chance I could get. Why? Because that's who I was. That was being transparent. Now, for the express purpose of keeping her on her toes I ONLY tell her "I love you" after we have sex and if she tells me first.

I think what people forget is that marriage does not end the "game." I game my wife more now, 25 years into our marriage, than I did when we first dated.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

I hated listening to my wife talk about how she felt about this and felt about that, on and on and on and on. After all, I was being transparent. I don't like listening to that shiit.

As the years went by, I realized that if I honestly listened to her about whatever she wanted to talk about, I would gain the emotional connection necessary to eventually get good sex. You know what happened along the way? Not only did the sex get WAY better, I actually LIKE listening to her now.

Go figure!

Advice: Learn to play the game and learn to LOVE the game. It's the most enjoyable game imaginable, even 25 years in.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

UMP said:


> When I first got married 25 years ago, I indeed thought that transparency was where it's at. I was going to be myself, warts and all. If I had a problem, I told her exactly how I felt.
> Where did that get me? I'll tell you.
> 
> Sex got worse and worse. The best description would be starfish duty sex. What did I do? More transparency, talk about it, tell her how you feel. What happened? It got worse.
> ...





UMP said:


> Let me give you another example:
> I used to say "I love you" every single chance I could get. Why? Because that's who I was. That was being transparent. Now, for the express purpose of keeping her on her toes I ONLY tell her "I love you" after we have sex and if she tells me first.
> 
> I think what people forget is that marriage does not end the "game." I game my wife more now, 25 years into our marriage, than I did when we first dated.


The bats and spiders are probably screaming right now...


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> The bats and spiders are probably screaming right now...


I'm just being "transparent" with all the TAMers :grin2:


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> The bats and spiders are probably screaming right now...


All jesting aside, I honestly think that what I have done and currently do is for the best. My marriage is something I value most in my life, even before my own very existence. 
My wife is literally my right arm. We are one, till death do us part.
Have I manipulated my wife? Yes.
Are we both happier, closer, having great sex, wonderful conversations and just plain having fun because of it? Yes.

Does the end justify the means? I believe in this case, it does.

BTW: My wife and all you female tamers are NOT stupid. You know what's going on if your husband is trying to manipulate you.
All I am doing is creating sexual tension.

Gotta love that sexual tension....... I feel a song coming on:smile2:


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

The fact of the matter is that reality is ugly. Example: I had a bad day at work, the drive home was horrible and the furnace that I cannot afford to replace just broke. Do I go home and transparently lament my poor poor life to get her sympathy and consolation? 

Hell no! I come home as a man who has it all figured out. The house burned down? That's OK, let's go to dinner and have fun.

My wife gets wet over the fantasy, not the reality. My job is to create an atmosphere of contentment and excitement. No woman ever wants the reality, she wants the fantasy. My goal is to become my wifes fantasy.

Well, at least that's what I'm shooting for.

rant over.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think your conscience is bothering you, UMP.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> I think your conscience is bothering you, UMP.


Actually, quite the opposite. You finally enabled me to put my finger on exactly what I have been doing for all these years and I am at peace with it.

If my wife made me the best pasta dish I have ever had while secretly infusing bull testicles without telling me, I could care less. Give me seconds and I don't want to know!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You simultaneously make me laugh and shake my head, UMP.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

You know @UMP, I wonder if Mrs.UMP started chasing you: it would turn you off? Like you would cool off towards her? IIRC, your first wife chased you, and you found her repellent>>>[note, if that's not you, please forgive me, I've got you confused with another poster.]

But, maybe you and your wife are really well suited for each other. A man who has needs and weaknesses is repulsive to her; and you [maybe] don't find sexually aggressive women attractive. You think you do; but in actuality, you don't. The chase is what gets you going.

If it works for you, and you don't mind leaping through hoops; then who can argue with that?


@bilbag



> hobbit-like stature, 5'5"....if I have to do again, I would marry a 6' girl and have kids 5'9" tall), financially stable (so far), no drug habit (got no friends to do with).
> 
> She is Japanese and culturally thinks it is past the age for having sex. Her body is definitely not past the age for having sex. She's hot and she wants it cold.



Nothing wrong with being 5'5", experience has taught me that most (not all) men don't like being with women taller than them, so I wouldn't worry about not being with a gal 6'.

I always thought that Japanese people were pretty sexy; I mean I know there is a shy exterior, but behind closed doors it seems like they're anything but shy. Or, maybe that's just young Japanese people, and all Japanese men??????


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Mr. Nail Get in the kitchen and make me a sammich.


You do realize you ordered a Smart Alec to make you food? I don't get opportunities like this very often . . . . .


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> You do realize you ordered a Smart Alec to make you food? I don't get opportunities like this very often . . . . .




Somebody needs to learn to only speak when he is spoken to.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Somebody needs to learn to only speak when he is spoken to.


If you think you are up to the task. And I was spoken to.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

wantshelp said:


> I looked up HNHN and found this summary...
> 
> Top Needs/Expectations in Marriage:
> For Men:
> ...


replace "affection" with "acceptance". 
then you'll get an idea about the priorities in the relationship (ie who is "is" the relationship, and for who the relationship is just an add-on to their own life.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

UMP said:


> The fact of the matter is that reality is ugly. Example: I had a bad day at work, the drive home was horrible and the furnace that I cannot afford to replace just broke. Do I go home and transparently lament my poor poor life to get her sympathy and consolation?


No, you're suppposed to bottle it up until you go postal.

All the time while women and society are telling you that you're an ar..hole for "not sharing your feelings" and "a bad communicator" and "not being open and honest with you partner" and "not asking for help"

sadly, however you are right. she doesn't want to handle your problems and it diminishes you in her eyes. She wants to know you are here for her problems, and that you're Daddy Winner and Champion. She doesn't want a boy with problems she has to take on board/deal with; she responds better when all those problems are taken away, and she can empty her stress list on you (which she probably won't feel like ""communicating"" to you, if you've got lots of constant battles at work etc)


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Wow. A lot of angry guys here. Personally when bad **** happens I don't really feel any need to dump it on my W. It is what it is. Suck it up. Swear a bit at the fvckin' water heater or whatever but I hardly see that as something I would whine about.

So add me to the list of "women and society" telling you to quit whining. No one says you have to be happy about it and no one says you can't brood a bit and toss a wrench here and there but do you really think complaining is going to solve it? I would say it's perfectly fine to say "hey give me a minute I'm going to have a beer and chill after a hard day before we talk" and I think most women would give you space. If not then be direct and say give me a bit of space woman ha ha. But seriously this is life.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> If you think you are up to the task. And I was spoken to.


You were told to fix a sandwich. I don't need your opinions.

Go stand in the corner.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

notmyrealname4 said:


> @Holdingontoit you give such wise advice. Or maybe not advice, more like insights. And I sometimes find them quite profound. And it's so ironic to me that the person who has had such a miserable time with sex and marriage; should be able to make some of the best observations. Of course, maybe that's why you can do it. Just like your own perverse nature; perversely, people who are deprived of sex and are becoming desiccated spiritually, are compensated by having the most accurate perceptions about it.


 @notmyrealname4: I do not have insights about sex. I have insights about sexual dysfunction. Earned the hard way. Not surprising or ironic at all.

I wish I had insights about sex. I wish I knew how to bring a woman sexual pleasure. I wish I had a partner willing to explore that together. I will never have any of that. But I have many blessings and life could be far worse. Shed no tears for me. I am choosing this life and this path. Eyes wide open. That is all anyone can ask for.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> @bilbag
> Nothing wrong with being 5'5", experience has taught me that most (not all) men don't like being with women taller than them, so I wouldn't worry about not being with a gal 6'.
> 
> I always thought that Japanese people were pretty sexy; I mean I know there is a shy exterior, but behind closed doors it seems like they're anything but shy. Or, maybe that's just young Japanese people, and all Japanese men??????


Japanese people are sexy. My wife is sexy, although she would argue otherwise. After she gave birth to two kids, then her focus changed. I read somewhere that there is a larger percentage of sexless marriages in Japan compared to US though. Maybe Pokemon Go is better than sex. I will see.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

If you are stuck in a low sex marriage, Pokemon Go is definitely better than sex. Pokemon Go will give you lots of dopamine hits and never reject you. Everywhere you go, Pokemon Go will reward you with success. As opposed to a low sex marriage, where no matter where you go you will rarely if ever have success. With Pokemon Go, the more you run around town playing around, the more success you will have. If you run around town playing around with sex, you may risk your marriage success.


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