# When do you know when to divorce?



## Mittens

Wow. Okay. This is going to be long. 
I am 25 years old, he's 28. I've been married a year and a half, together 4 years. I don't know what to do... I feel lost.
My husband is an alcoholic. He "quit" drinking, and did very well with it, while even being unemployed for a year, but once he got a job, and he worked out of town during the week I eventually got him to admit how he would go out drinking.
He's an ******* when he drinks. He would call me horrible names, drive my vehicle loaded, embarass me, etc etc.
He also has serious anger problems. He is currently seeing a therapist for the 2nd time about it, but it seems like his therapy sessions have been focusing on other things because there has not been any change.. if anything it has gotten worse.
I don't know for sure about the focus, it is a private matter and I don't question it of him.
He's selfish. I have the opposite problem and put him above myself. It's running me into the ground.
He is currently across the country in a party-city for the weekend with the guys for a weight lifting competition.. He's already admitted to drinking.. he went an entire day without so much of a hello.. and maybe texting a couple times a day after that.. did I mention the entire time I was in the hospital with a very serious issue? and he knew about it? But his trip was more important. He comes home tomorrow. He has been ignoring me for the past few hours.
I know he's drinking. He lied to me about drinking. I don't trust him.
I love him. I love the man he has the potential to be. But I just don't know what to do... It's like when we're good we're amazing, but when it'd bad it honest to god challenges and strains my sanity. It's destroying me.
He knew I was in the hospital and didn't even ask how I was...
I had surgery in the US 2 weeks ago and the night after I had surgery he went to the bar with friends till 3am. Not even a text.
I don't know what to do.... I don't know if divorce is the right decision, and I should just walk away, or if there's a chance to salvage this.. I would love if there was, but he has told me so many times and given me empty promises... He tries a little.. or for a little while.. and then goes back to old habits.
I'm.... just lost


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## jmfabulous

Oh Hon, this sounds horrible!

However, I can't answer whether divorce is the right option for you. Have you thought about entering into therapy for yourself to figure out what you want?


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## Confused-Wife

I hate when people suggest this on this forum, but I'm going to suggest it here. Are you seeing a counselor for spouses of alcoholics? It might help a little.

There is definitely a problem here. How is your communication with each other. Does he know that his drinking is pushing you away? Was he aware that his presence during your hospitalization was very important to you? (or was it a case of you saying, "no, it's ok, just go, i'll be fine alone). 

Have you talked to him about the thoughts of leaving due to his drinking? How do you think he would feel if you told him about it? Would he be devastated to lose you, or do you think he'd put up less of a fight?


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## Confused-Wife

The reason I ask so many questions is because no one can answer your question for you. The best I (or we) can do is get you to figure out an answer on your own. Questions are meant to get your thinking about options and alternatives, possible solutions even.


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## Mittens

Well that definitely changes things...
He went out drinking again Friday night, things went down hill from there, and I finally told him it was booze or me.. He choose me.. I told him last chance, and if it happens again there will be no discussion, I'll just leave.
He surprised me this morning with the 
"I love you but I'm not IN love with you" talk.
WOW.
I left the house to gather my head. I told him I appreciate his honesty, however I don't want him with me for the wrong reasons.
He told me I didn't deserve the way he treated me, I have never treated him in any way to reciprocate, and he doesn't know why he repeatedly hurts me, but he said I am too good of a person to have to live with that...
He called me about an hour later and asked me to come back to the house.
He told me he had done a lot of thinking and apparently "reading on the internet" and found out the feelings he's having are normal, and he was sorry he's put me through it and would like to give it another try. He said he had some realizations and his outlook has cokmpletely changed.
Wtf.
And if I thought I was messed in the head before.
Sigh.
Thoughts? Advice? Comments?
Thanks for reading.
Michelle


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## Uptown

> He told me he had done a lot of thinking and apparently "reading on the internet" and found out the feelings he's having are normal


They don't sound normal to me. You are describing a man who is selfish, has little impulse control, is verbally abusive, has great anger inside that is easily triggered by minor comments or actions, won't take responsibility for his own actions, and is emotionally unstable. That is, you are describing a 28 year old man who has the emotional development of a four year old. He has little control over his emotions and is throwing hissy fits and temper tantrums whenever he gets offended. 

And since you never know for sure what comment or action might trigger that release of anger, you are stuck walking on eggshells all the time -- to the point that you've forgotten what the "real you" was like. Simply stated, you are in a toxic relationship and your contribution to the toxicity is being the enabler who, by continually trying to sooth him, is allowing him to persist in acting like a child. This is harmful to him as well as to you.

This is exactly what I did with my exW for 15 years, during which time I took her to weekly visits with six different psychologists -- all to no avail. She suffers from BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Several of the behavioral traits you are describing -- which I list above -- are on the list of 9 BPD traits. You can see that list (taken from the DSM-IV diagnostic manual) at Borderline Personality Disorder. And you can read my description of living with a BPDer in my several posts in GTRR's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/anxiet...depressed-its-always-my-fault.html#post188319. If that description sounds familiar, I would be glad to discuss it with you and suggest good online articles written by professionals. Take care, Mittens. Rather, I should say "Start taking care of yourself, Caregiver."


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## Mittens

Confused-Wife said:


> I hate when people suggest this on this forum, but I'm going to suggest it here. Are you seeing a counselor for spouses of alcoholics? It might help a little.
> 
> There is definitely a problem here. How is your communication with each other. Does he know that his drinking is pushing you away? Was he aware that his presence during your hospitalization was very important to you? (or was it a case of you saying, "no, it's ok, just go, i'll be fine alone).
> 
> Have you talked to him about the thoughts of leaving due to his drinking? How do you think he would feel if you told him about it? Would he be devastated to lose you, or do you think he'd put up less of a fight?


I just realized I never answered any of this.
I am very forth-coming on how his actions affect me and make me feel, and I am also confrontational. Me being in the hospital was a very serious situation, and I let him know exactly how serious it was. My surgeon that was assigned to me tried to call him but he "swears to this day he never got a call".
Who knows.
As for the 'fight to lose me'... I was honestly shocked when he gave me the "I love you but not IN love with you" speech and cried the whole time.. It was the first time he's A) cried in front of me. EVER. He is very non-emotional, and B) first time he admitted that *I* deserved better. *I* don't deserve the way he treats me, that it's unfair to *ME*, etc etc. 
And then for the last proverbial kick-in-the-face.. asking me for another chance. Telling me he's had some kind of enlightenment or epiphany and sees things differently now.. Realizes just how inconsiderate he's been to me and my feelings, realizes couples go through rough patches, realizes it's normal to have doubts and other feelings other than love, blah blah blah..
Who knows.
I am just.. I don't even know.. He sucked up all of last night and was obviously feeling very guilty.
I just did my own thing. I was fairly non-responsive to be honest and if he directly asked me something I would answer, but after the man you love tells you that he doesn't want you, do you really want him to show physical affection or pretend like everything is okay?
I told him I was done with telling him to take me and my feelings into consideration. It's time for HIM to pull up HIS big-boy pants and do it himself ... or not and live with the obvious consequences, which would be splitting.
I am done with trying to pressure him into being non-selfish and considerate. 
After the sh!t-show yesterday I told him these things.. I also told him the past few weeks he has never made it more blatantly obvious to me that the only person who will look out for my own good is *me*, and I need to start putting me first. He complains I work too much (which is true to be fair) and don't spend enough time with him, which leaves me little to no time with my friends, yet he takes his friends over me all the time.
So that will change. 
I don't know. I evidently didn't get the memo on how marriages work. Ugh.
Wow.
Anywhoo. Thanks for reading
Michelle


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## Mittens

Uptown said:


> They don't sound normal to me. You are describing a man who is selfish, has little impulse control, is verbally abusive, has great anger inside that is easily triggered by minor comments or actions, won't take responsibility for his own actions, and is emotionally unstable. That is, you are describing a 28 year old man who has the emotional development of a four year old. He has little control over his emotions and is throwing hissy fits and temper tantrums whenever he gets offended.
> 
> And since you never know for sure what comment or action might trigger that release of anger, you are stuck walking on eggshells all the time -- to the point that you've forgotten what the "real you" was like. Simply stated, you are in a toxic relationship and your contribution to the toxicity is being the enabler who, by continually trying to sooth him, is allowing him to persist in acting like a child. This is harmful to him as well as to you.
> 
> This is exactly what I did with my exW for 15 years, during which time I took her to weekly visits with six different psychologists -- all to no avail. She suffers from BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Several of the behavioral traits you are describing -- which I list above -- are on the list of 9 BPD traits. You can see that list (taken from the DSM-IV diagnostic manual) at Borderline Personality Disorder. And you can read my description of living with a BPDer in my several posts in GTRR's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/anxiet...depressed-its-always-my-fault.html#post188319. If that description sounds familiar, I would be glad to discuss it with you and suggest good online articles written by professionals. Take care, Mittens. Rather, I should say "Start taking care of yourself, Caregiver."


Well.. Interesting you should say this.
Yesterday my husband approached me and said he thinks he may have what his sister has.. (severe ADHD and Bi-polar). I asked him if he's ever heard of BPD.
After a while of googling and researching, he wrote me saying that's him. It makes his life make sense and all of a sudden all these things finally clicked and fell into place...
I think he is more relieved than anything knowing that it's not just that he's a horrible person or an .sshole, there's actually a reason behind it. Reading more myself it makes a lot of sense for me... the anger, drinking, extreme behavior, etc etc..
So.. No matter what the future brings, it will be a challenge. 
I think all the realizations and events of the past few days are sinking into my melon.
Any insight / advice / comments are more than welcome. I could use any brain food right now that I can get.
Thank you very much to those that wrote and those that will 

Cheer,
Michelle


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## Uptown

> I asked him if he's ever heard of BPD.... he wrote me saying that's him. It makes his life make sense and all of a sudden all these things finally clicked and fell into place...


Michelle, if your H has strong BPD traits as I suspect, they likely arose from an early childhood trauma that (together with an inherited sensititity) caused his emotional development to freeze at about age four. I would be glad to discuss the implications of this with you. At the link I provided above, you will find three posts I wrote describing what it is like to live with a person suffering from strong BPD traits. Because BPDers usually do not have all nine traits at a strong level, it would be helpful if you would give me feedback on what parts of my discussion seem to apply to your H. I will be glad to respond to that feedback and, if you like, to suggest some excellent online articles written by professionals.


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## Mrs.G

If we are not doctors, we cannot diagnose ourselves or anyone else. Reading articles is nothing compared to a complete assessment by a psychiatrist. There is an hours long discussion about the patient's life and the way they experience the world. The doctors consult with each other and then discuss their diagnosis and treatment plan with the patient.
BPD is a very punitive label. I have learned from past experience that medical professionals avoid BPD patients like the plague.
After a year of specialized therapy, I managed to get those destructive behaviors under control. There are no more suicide attempts, cutting or anger outbursts. I have learned to take consequences very seriously and remain accountable for my actions. When I am angry or sad, I allow myself to experience my emotions in a safe way, such as crying in private or journal writing. 
It was an upbill battle, but it was necessary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

Mrs.G said:


> If we are not doctors, we cannot diagnose ourselves or anyone else.


True, but nobody has made such a claim. The issue is not whether Michelle can diagnose her H. Rather, the issue is whether she is sufficiently intelligent to spot the red flags, i.e., to spot several strong BPD traits when they occur. I am confident that she is able to do it easily -- and you are too. Indeed, before the two of you graduated from high school, you already could spot a very selfish and grandiose student without having a clue as to how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could spot the class drama queen without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. And you could identify the extremely shy kids without having to diagnose Avoidant PD.

Likewise, you both are capable of spotting a strong occurrence of the nine BPD traits. There is nothing subtle about these traits. You would have to be dumb, mute, and blind not to see strong instances of verbal abuse, jealousy, distrustfulness, and black-white thinking (i.e., flipping in 10 seconds from adoring to hating you) in a man you've been living with for years.


> Reading articles is nothing compared to a complete assessment by a psychiatrist.


True but, again, this is not at issue. I never suggested that her H rely on articles. Instead, I have urged _Michelle_ to do the reading. It is very important for her to know what traits to look for. The main reason is that most therapists are loath to tell the client -- much less the spouse -- that he has BPD even when that diagnosis is warranted. 

One reason is that insurance companies usually will refuse to cover treatments for BPD, claiming (falsely) that it is untreatable. But they will cover the treatments if the therapist lists the "diagnosis" as one of the incidental effects or a co-occurring disorder (e.g., depression, bipolar, PTSD, or anxiety). Another reason is that BPD is such a dreaded diagnosis that nearly all high functioning BPDers will immediately quit therapy on hearing that diagnosis. A third reason is the therapists' concern that putting "BPD" in the permanent health record will adversely affect the client's future employment opportunities.


> After a year of specialized therapy, I managed to get those destructive behaviors under control. There are no more suicide attempts, cutting or anger outbursts. I have learned to take consequences very seriously and remain accountable for my actions.


Mrs.G, that is an amazing accomplishment. Because BPD is invisible to nearly all BPD sufferers, it is rare for a BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength to do what you have already accomplished. I would be surprised if 1 in 100 BPDers ever choose to seek BPD therapy and stay in it long enough to make a difference. Although I've communicated online with nearly a hundred self-aware BPDers like you, they are so rare that I've never knowingly met one in my personal life. My exW is a BPDer but, sadly, does not have anything close to your level of self awareness.


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## Mittens

After reading quite a bit on the internet myself and looking into different books (Not mentioning it to my husband), he went out and actually BOUGHT "Walking On Eggshells". I was completely taken back. It's written geared towards "non's", (I'm already 3/4's through it) but he wants to read it after to help identify with me and learn more about himself.
I think the biggest challenge will be him finding a counselor in our city with specific BPD, but I definitely have made very sure to take a complete step back and let HIM make the decisions on it. If HE wants to talk to me about it, we talk about it, if HE wants to tell me about the actions or things he's doing in relation to it, then I let him tell me. I don't volunteer ideas or push for anything. Normally I am very much the responsible, logical one and do the research to say okay, these are your options, I've found the doors and it's up to you to walk through them.
My Husband's definite strongest indicators are the raging and intense / immediate fury, he is a binge alcoholic, the black-and-white, blaming, lack of any middle-ground / moderation etc etc. Although if he has jealously the majority of the time he either A) hides it very well, which is a total possibility, or B) takes it out on me other ways by exerting inappropriate behavior himself to 'get back at me'.
The only indicator he doesn't have is the self mutilating / suicidal tendencies, but from the sounds of it if he is indeep BPD he is definitely high functioning.
The last few days have just been a big blur...
Although I am but I'm not shocked on how enthusiastic he is about treatment and therapy and such. He is always enthusiastic about things in the beginning and the novelty wears off. We'll see. I hope this one sticks around... If he loses the commitment to treatment/therapy that's where I draw the line on my commitment to him.
I promised him that I will mirror whatever efforts he puts in, but it's not something I can do FOR him.
I'm not sure if I'm doing this right.. I'm not sure if there is such thing as "right".. I'm trying to gain all the knowledge I can and do what I can.
He's definitely in an "up" right now, and it's funny after all the reading being able to identify that. He withdrawls from his friends when he's in an "up" and completely focuses on me. 
It's a very bizarre thought process to try and wrap your head around...
Not bizarre, I shouldn't say that, moreso just different.
Not wrong, just different...
Anyways, at this point I think I'm rambling.
Thanks again for the input and reading.
Every little bit helps 

Cheer,
Michelle


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## Uptown

> if he is indeed BPD he is definitely high functioning.


Most BPDers are high functioning (HF). You would never have married him if he were not. HF-BPDers are very resistent to ever admitting they have such a disorder and are difficult to diagnose because they are excellent actors and the therapists see them only 50 minutes a week. Hence, it is very encouraging that your H is willing to acknowledge having strong BPD traits.


> Although I am but I'm not shocked on how enthusiastic he is about treatment and therapy and such. He is always enthusiastic about things in the beginning and the novelty wears off.


You are wise to be skeptical. HF-BPDers are unstable and thus become excited about things for up to two weeks. As I described in GTRR's thread, I bought many expensive things for my exW and she was ecstatic for two weeks tops. Then she totally lost interest as she realized the the bottomless black hole of emptiness was still there inside her -- as strong as it was before.

The good news is that he was happy to finally know what it is he is dealing with. His willingness to confront and acknowledge it means he is over the biggest hurdle to getting better: having the self awareness to see that his behavior is dysfunctional in many respects. He is not home safe, however, because most self-aware HF-BPDers will not stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. 

If you go to BPDrecovery.com and speak with the members (all of whom are self-aware or they wouldn't be there), you will find that the treated ones say they are still struggling to manage their intense feelings even after several years of therapy. This is why I am so favorably impressed by Mrs.G's accomplishment in one year of therapy. Currently, BPD cannot be cured but can be managed if the person has professional guidance and is determined to do it. 

I suggest that you mention the BPDrecovery.com website to him as an excellent source of good articles. It also has a forum targeted solely to BPDers. It is best if he avoids the sites used by the nonBPD partners, many of whom are hostile to BPDers and spread false information. Their comments likely will trigger his intense feelings of shame and may impede his recovery.


> I'm not sure if I'm doing this right.. I'm not sure if there is such thing as "right".


As far as helping to fix him, there is absolutely nothing you can do. Moreover, he likely will make more progress -- if indeed he chooses to do so -- while he is living away from you. When you two are together, you will constantly be inclined to help sooth him -- at a time he should be learning on his own how to do self soothing. So you will likely interfere with that process. Moreover, by being close to him, your mere presence will serve to continually trigger his twin fears of abandonment and engulfment, as I described in GTRR's thread.

If you ultimately decide that he has strong BPD traits, I suggest that you confirm that by going for a session or two with a clinical psychologist -- on your own. Without your H there, the psych is far more likely to speak candidly and say "It sounds like he may be suffering from ...." With your H along, you likely will never hear such a diagnosis even if it is warranted, as I explained above.

If he does have strong BPD traits, my advice is to walk out if he refuses to stay in a treatment program for at least several years. Yet, even if he does agree to that, you are not home free. It is extremely difficult -- with a man who alternates between wonderful and awful behavior -- to figure out if he is making any progress whatsoever.

With my exW, I took her to six psychologists in weekly visits for 15 years -- costing me a small fortune. During the first half of that period, I figured that she had to get worse before she could get better because the sessions were putting her in touch with the early childhood trauma of being abused by her dad. In the latter half of that period, I somehow convinced myself that she seemed to be getting better. BIG MISTAKE. She actually got much worse in the last two years. 

Consequently, my advice to a young woman like you is that, if you believe he has strong BPD traits, you should divorce him unless you see lots of convincing evidence he is working hard in therapy. Moreover, if it were me, I would stay away from him for at least 6 months or a year to see if he will stay in therapy on his own. The therapy will only work if he wants it badly for himself. It will not work if he is doing it only to satisfy your condition for remaining in the marriage. I travelled that path for 15 years and it did not end well.

I also suggest that you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com. It is the largest and most active BPD site targeted solely to the Nons like us. It has a dozen separate message boards. The two that may be most useful to you are the "Staying" and "Undecided" boards. There, you will find hundreds of folks going through exactly what you are experiencing right now. But please don't forget about those of us here at TAM. Please stay in touch with us, Michelle, and give us updates if you have time.


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## Runs like Dog

I concur. Not a BPD myself or related to any by blood or marriage, but the odds are massively stacked against you. Most serial killers are not sociopaths, they're BPD. Dictators are BPD, like Hitler or Stalin.

There's a guy in Romania named Sam Vaknin who's done a great deal of work studying narcissistic personality disorders. He is not a medical professional but he's very well read on the subject. Check YouTube.


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## Uptown

Runs like Dog said:


> Most serial killers are not sociopaths, they're BPD.


RLD, can you point to any evidence for such a bold assertion? I ask because I've never seen anyone make such a claim.


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## DepressedHusband

Mittens said:


> Wow. Okay. This is going to be long.
> I am 25 years old, he's 28. I've been married a year and a half, together 4 years. I don't know what to do... I feel lost.
> My husband is an alcoholic. He "quit" drinking, and did very well with it, while even being unemployed for a year, but once he got a job, and he worked out of town during the week I eventually got him to admit how he would go out drinking.
> He's an ******* when he drinks. He would call me horrible names, drive my vehicle loaded, embarass me, etc etc.
> He also has serious anger problems. He is currently seeing a therapist for the 2nd time about it, but it seems like his therapy sessions have been focusing on other things because there has not been any change.. if anything it has gotten worse.
> I don't know for sure about the focus, it is a private matter and I don't question it of him.
> He's selfish. I have the opposite problem and put him above myself. It's running me into the ground.
> He is currently across the country in a party-city for the weekend with the guys for a weight lifting competition.. He's already admitted to drinking.. he went an entire day without so much of a hello.. and maybe texting a couple times a day after that.. did I mention the entire time I was in the hospital with a very serious issue? and he knew about it? But his trip was more important. He comes home tomorrow. He has been ignoring me for the past few hours.
> I know he's drinking. He lied to me about drinking. I don't trust him.
> I love him. I love the man he has the potential to be. But I just don't know what to do... It's like when we're good we're amazing, but when it'd bad it honest to god challenges and strains my sanity. It's destroying me.
> He knew I was in the hospital and didn't even ask how I was...
> I had surgery in the US 2 weeks ago and the night after I had surgery he went to the bar with friends till 3am. Not even a text.
> I don't know what to do.... I don't know if divorce is the right decision, and I should just walk away, or if there's a chance to salvage this.. I would love if there was, but he has told me so many times and given me empty promises... He tries a little.. or for a little while.. and then goes back to old habits.
> I'm.... just lost


 My mother married a alcoholic "well hidden BTW" when I was 13. Its been 20 years she got divorced and he is still a alcoholic. Its not something you can cure with religion, therapy or even drugs if its a true addiction. 

I doubt much will change while they do seem to be able to have spurts of sobriety.


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## Mittens

DepressedHusband:
I can understand it must of been very frustrating and painful to be a part of that, but to make the assumption that "not much will change" I think is unfair.
There are many clean alcoholics all over the place, and yes, a large amount don't believe it's a problem or don't put in the effort to work on themselves, but there are also many that do.
Having said that, I appreciate you contributing to the thread and appreciate your opinion.

Uptown : 
First thing I did was go and intro myself on bpdfamily.com
Great board with a TON of great resources.
My head is still processing and spinning from it all.
He works 2 weeks in / 2 weeks out and leaves on Tuesday for his 2 weeks in, so I think having some time to digest everything will help huge.

It's funny now how recognizable it is when he gets upset it's like an excerpt from Walking On Eggshells... I can tell now when he splits, projects, etc etc.. On the bright side it's happened twice now that he has actually calmed down and we've talked about it afterwards.. He has a counseling appt on May 12th, so hopefully the counselor will have some insight as to the next step for treatment in our city and what-not, or at least point him in the right direction... It's a huge kick in the pants because he does soooo well with the counselor he has right now.
So I guess it's just the waiting game to see how it all shakes down.. Unfortunately he works out of town a lot and has always used splitting as a way to deal with it in himself... He thinks that's a positive thing for him in that situation.
He actually told me what went through his mind while we were having an "argument", (meaning he raged) and it was tough to say the least to hear that he can flip in seconds to literally hating me, believing that he is always right, he is smarter than me, I don't know what I'm talking about, and I am just out to be against him and make him angry, and above all else it's all my fault.
As hard as it was to hear, I told him repeatedly and tried to reinforce how amazing it was that he was able to verbalize his feelings to me calmly and be honest with me. That was a huge step forward for him and I am focusing on trying to make him as comfortable as possible talking to me in a calm setting.. 
Like I said, I'm not sure if how I'm dealing with it is the right way, but right now it's about all I got. One foot in front of the other. 

Thanks again for reading / responding
Michelle


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## Uptown

Michelle, thanks so much for updating us. I'm afraid that your H's sudden enthusiasm for BPD information will last the usual two weeks and evaporate. But if it persists, a far better book for him (than "Eggshells") is Borderline Personality Disorder Demystified. It is more compassionate and less triggering because, as you correctly observe, "Eggshells" is targeted to Nons.


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## Mittens

Uptown said:


> Michelle, thanks so much for updating us. I'm afraid that your H's sudden enthusiasm for BPD information will last the usual two weeks and evaporate. But if it persists, a far better book for him (than "Eggshells") is Borderline Personality Disorder Demystified. It is more compassionate and less triggering because, as you correctly observe, "Eggshells" is targeted to Nons.


Well he leaves tomorrow for his 2 weeks out shift. On the bright side he works in a dry camp (meaning no alcohol whatsoever) in the middle of nowhere, so who knows how it will go. He won't be drinking, and that's a bonus, I just hope his head handles it all okay - meaning as much as my head is spinning from all of this, I couldn't imagine what is going through his head.
However, we did get into an argument (if you could call the interactions when he gets upset that) and he picked up the book, shoved it in front of my face and basically blamed BPD. I made damn skippy to tell him when he calmed down I will NOT accept BPD as an excuse. Yes, it's an illness and will need work from both of us, HOWEVER, it is NOT a 'get out of jail free card'. It is something I take into consideration on how I react to him and such, but it is NOT by ANY means any kind of absolution for his behavior. Unacceptable behavior is still unacceptable behavior and there WILL be boundaries. Not un-realistic boundaries, but things like - okay, until he learns to cope better there will be bad rages, which I get, BUT, ANY kind of physical manifestation of it (implied or otherwise) is NOT okay. Will NEVER be okay. My husband competitively powerlifts so he is 6'0 and 260 lbs of solid muscle... I am 5'0 and athletic. He could very easily absolutely destroy me with very little effort and it won't be a situation I allow myself to get into.
I hope that doesn't sound harsh, but I just feel very strongly that he needs to accept responsilbility for HIS actions. It is HIM that controls what he does and says, just as it is up to HIM to take plans accordingly - IE going to therapy, working on himself, etc etc.

I think the 2 weeks with him away will be good for me. 
I am very independent and cherish my alone time. It helps me sort my head out, and right now I could use all the sorting I can get.

I guess time will tell if he has the resolution to try and stick to working on himself.. I told him I would put in as much effort into our marriage as he puts in, and I mean that - I am hoping it helps me avoid the 1-sidedness of me trying for the both of us like it has in the past. 

Anyone have a manual on how all this stuff works? I'll pay top dollar for it! 

Thanks for reading 

Michelle


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## Mittens

Here's an update on him, but more so me.
Husband left on Tuesday morning for work, and he'll be gone in 2 weeks. On the bright side, the camp he is in is a dry camp, which is very strictly no drugs / alcohol. Yaaayyyy.
It's given me a lot of time to think.
I keep asking myself the same questions over and over. 
Don't get me wrong, I would never leave him just because he has a mental illness, but I WILL leave him if he is aware of it and doesn't seek treatment.
Onto staying. I'm not sure how to wrap my head around making what he's said and done okay. 
It's a lot like something just kind of snapped inside me when he gave me ILYBNILWY.. I am terrified he'll drink again.. I'm terrified he'll get really excited about going to therapy, then lull himself into a false sense of confidence and go into denial - like he's done with his drinking.. He flip-switches whether he wants kids on a monthly basis, and kids will NEVER be an option until he gets himself in a place where I could safely leave a child with him.. Not to mention, what if 5-6 years down the road he decides he really ACTUALLY doesn't want them? I'm not entirely sure if I want children at this point, but I want the right to be able to choose either way. I need to re-learn how to trust him. I need to re-learn how to have faith in him. From watching him be financially, emotionally, physically irresponsible I've become so accustomed to only depending on myself and taking care of it all (yeah, very typical non in a lot of ways), but on the same hand if I want to help HIM succeed he needs to be able to function on his own and OWN his responsibility. 
On one hand, it actually really helped me understand him when after one of his rages he calmed down and explained to me what went through his head - that included telling me how at that felt his mind literally was positive that he was smarter than me, I was always wrong, he *hated* me, etc etc.
On the other, now I'm trying to figure out how to deal with hearing him tell me he hates me and will always think I'm inferior, and sort it out in my own mind.
I also have a big fear that I'll mess up. There's tons of literature and what-not for tactics on dealing with BPD partners in arguments and I keep second guessing and wondering if I'm implementing them right? Did I screw it up and cause more harm than good? If something works today, will it work tomorrow?
etc etc etc. 
I fully understand and accept that either way the whole situation shakes down, it definitely will not be short nor easy, I guess I'm just trying to get my head in the best possible place to tackle my own part of the equation. If that makes sense at all?
Anywhoo. Enough keyboard diahhrea for this morning!

Thanks for reading,
Michelle


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## LonelyNLost

Okay, I see that the focus is on BPD. However, have you considered that he might be cheating? Especially with the hanging out with others? I know people automatically jump to this conclusion, and months ago I couldn't stand it when people would say that. However, my situation was a lot like yours. I believed what he said, he's depressed, etc. I even found articles that looked to follow exactly the things he was saying, feeling, etc. 

Fast forward to now and he's been having an affair the whole time. Yeah, I can't believe it now that I have hindsight. The "you'll be better of without me, I don't deserve you", the "I love you but not in love with you" and all the other things. 

Just don't want you to be suckered like I was. I truly hope that this is just a treatable illness for your marriage's sake. I do. But I think I would really insist on IC for both of you and MC as well. This is a tough thing to get through. He's basically made it clear that he's willing to give you up. That's a big warning sign, no matter what the cause. I missed it in my marriage and did everything to help him and make him feel loved. I was a big sucker. He was having his ego stroked from two directions and feeling all kinds of self worth. HIs "depression" was a result of the guilt he was feeling and his internal struggle over what to choose.


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## Uptown

> I also have a big fear that I'll mess up. ... I keep second guessing and wondering if I'm implementing them right? Did I screw it up and cause more harm than good? If something works today, will it work tomorrow?


Michelle, until he has at least a year or two of therapy to start learning how to manage his emotions, there is very little you can do to help. No matter how well you handle things, any calming you achieve will be washed aside by the next emotional wave passing through him. Hence, all you hand wringing about saying the correct thing is the equivalent of agonizing over whether you added sufficient details to the gate and turret of a sandcastle you're building beside the ocean. Whatever you do, it will be gone in a few days, if not tomorrow.

The only thing I've ever seen that you can do -- to make a very small difference -- is to learn techniques for affirming his feelings. But, until he learns to regulate his emotions and to trust -- an outcome that is unlikely -- all the affirmation in the world is not going matter much with a man having strong BPD traits. He is fully in control of himself and, if he refuses to take responsibility for his issues, your worries about saying the right thing are pointless. For your own mental health and well being, however, it is important that you build up your personal boundaries and enforce them.


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## Mittens

LonelyNLost:
I appreciate the concern, but I can confidently say that it's not an affair. In a lot of regards we very are close, and no one can say 100% for sure, but I can definitely see how it may come across like that. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and it is, the alcoholism and behavioral patterns / thought processes are definitely BPD. 

Uptown:
I think the best part of all this (being optimistic / finding the good in the situation) is it does feel amazing to be setting boundaries. It feels almost empowering to know that I DO have the right to set boundaries, that *I'm* not crazy, *I* don't have unreal expectations, and it's not all *my* fault like he has gotten so good at projecting on me. I am definitely going to start making individual counseling appointments for myself, if only to resolve all the left-over feelings of the last 5 years and to help me sort my head out going forward. 
I really can't say enough how absolutely amazing it is to *KNOW* and actually hear that so much of it really didn't have anything to do with me (if that makes sense) and it wasn't caused by my actions or something I did or didn't say. It's like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. He used to basically blame me for his drinking and tell me I made him resent me and not care, and now I know it's not MY problem, it's *his*. That's not meant to sound malicious, it just feels really great after so long of being emotionally beaten down to finally stand up and say "Uh huh. I will help you however I can but this is NOT my fault and you can not pin it on me".
Also with him being out of town for 2 weeks at a time it gives me a chance to catch up on my friends, my hobbies, things that are important to ME that I haven't had any time to do. I completely admit - I am a workaholic. I work far too much, my job is demanding, I just do what I have too to get things done. I have always put my husband first for any spare time I have, and his biggest bone of contention has always been that I don't spend enough time with him and too much working - however, he always makes it plainly obvious his friends come above me, his justification being that if I won't spend time with him he has to find people who do. That is changing right skippy quick. 
I now know that I deserve the right to spend time with my friends as well, I deserve to devote the time I'd like to the sports I play and hobbies I love. It's a give and take. My husband (like most BPD's) is very all-or-nothing, black-or-white. WIthout even realizing it I didn't see that aspect in some ways and have just rolled over and took it, like with his friends and such. No more. It's like knowing I now have a RIGHT to set boundaries, it gives me a sense of self again and the confidence that he's knocked down over the years. The strength that never went away but slowely faded into the background.

Well that turned into a whole long rant, lol. Sorry about that.

Thanks for reading.
Cheers,
Michelle


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## LonelyNLost

I wish you luck. You do sound like you are doing well. You need that sense of self again, because that will get you through, no matter what happens. Keep your chin up!


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## Mittens

LonelyNLost said:


> I wish you luck. You do sound like you are doing well. You need that sense of self again, because that will get you through, no matter what happens. Keep your chin up!


Thank you 
I'm not sure "well" is the word, but I'm doing the only thing I know how.
Although I did definitely take your other post into consideration and am definitely keeping an eye out / not totally discounting it. I don't think so, but I honestly don't think anyone ever *really* expects it, right? So who knows.
Thanks for your imput, I appreciate it 
Every day is a new day, and one day at a time.

-Michelle


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## soccermom

Mittens-I don't have any sage advice for you, but I do want to say you are very wise for your young age. YOU know what to do, you are focused and sounds like you love yourself...

You are on the right track.


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## DelinquentGurl

I second that. You are a very strong person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faith-Hope-Love

I also second that!

You are doing "well," and that is the word for it. Years from now you will look back on this time and see that this is true. And if you want proof now, compare your writings to those of others on this website. You identify your problems, plan and execute appropriate courses of action, and show resolve in getting a good outcome. Many who seek advice here are not doing that. Your writings demonstrate good, rational thinking.

You also have good moral character. Though you started the thread asking for divorce advice, your writings indicate that you consider divorce an extreme and undesirable action. You want to remain married because you love your husband. 

Things will get better, worse, then better again. Life is a roller coaster. I hope your husband does follow through to take better care of himself. You may have to do some more prodding, even though it is up to him, as you rightly point out.


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## Mittens

Soccermom, DeliquentGurl, Faith-Hope-Love - 
Thank you SO much for the kind words and encouragement! I appreciate you taking the time to read my babbling. I have a feeling in the next few weeks I'll be re-reading your posts a lot and using them for strength  

Husband comes home on the 10th. I am a little worried how his 2 weeks off are going to go, but all I can do is take it by day by.
I'm terrified he won't persue therapy and in the 2 weeks away from home the whole thing was forgotten or muted. Well I guess terrified is the wrong word... 

He has a counseling appointment on the 12th, and I really REALLY hope it goes well for him. I think the 2 weeks he's home is going to be HUGELY challenging on me, and I will really have to check myself into taking a step back. My work schedule is crazy at the moment, but as soon as it calms down I'll be making an individual counseling session for myself to A) help provide me with the best tools on how to best deal with him in a constructive manner, and to B) help me sort my own mind and all the left-over feelings out.

This past week has been AMAZING. I can't remember the last time I've actually had the opportunity to *just* focus on myself. I can't remember the last time I've smiled and laughed this much. I'm always a very bubbley, optimistic, goofy person, but it's wonderful to have that feeling actually *inside* now. It's like the psychological re-charge I really needed 

I apologise if I'm repeating myself. This thread to me right now is a safe place to outwardly put my thoughts into words. Like an inner monologue that I get fantastic feedback and advice on - which has and I'm sure will continue to be invaluable to me.

I guess that's probably more than enough for right now.

Thank you very much again 

-Michelle


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## Uptown

Michelle, thanks for the update. You have another full week to focus on yourself, which is a good thing. I wish you and your H the best on the 12th. Don't expect to much from that first visit -- I've seen a lot of therapists with my exW and, for the first several sessions, they are primarily just asking questions and taking notes. Even so, it will be informative simply to see how your H reacts to it and how he does for the two weeks.


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## Mittens

Uptown said:


> Michelle, thanks for the update. You have another full week to focus on yourself, which is a good thing. I wish you and your H the best on the 12th. Don't expect to much from that first visit -- I've seen a lot of therapists with my exW and, for the first several sessions, they are primarily just asking questions and taking notes. Even so, it will be informative simply to see how your H reacts to it and how he does for the two weeks.


I think you're absolutely right - I don't expect anything to be accomplished from it, my main focus will be seeing how he reacts to it all. If he's as willing to accept himself as he was before he left for work, then that's hopeful and something I can work with, if it's a lot of "Yeah, but-"'s, then I think I have some thinking to do.
I hate the "hurry up and wait" game, but that's just how 'she goes right now.

He really, truly is an amazing man, and I do adore him with all my heart. I don't care how long it takes, the only singular thing I care about is how hard he tries. As I told him, I won't promise him I will never leave, and I won't put up with abusive behavior, but I will promise I will put as much effort into our marriage as he puts into treatment. So we'll see.
Man I sound like a broken record. 

Thanks again,
Michelle


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## Mittens

Well.. That was interesting to say the least.
Last night I was talking with my husband over MSN (all they have is internet up in camp where he is) and we were talking about plans for the week and such and the counseling appointment came up for Thursday and he just went off. 
He refuses to get formally diagnosed, and seems to think he can deal with it on his own from reading things and such like that.

I told him very adamantly that the only way he'll get help is from a professional - there is an entire theraputic method geared specifically FOR Bpd. I know I shouldn't be, but I'm just crushed. He went on to say he doesn't want to talk about it and he doesn't want to think about it while he's away from home. That he doesn't need the added stress and he can choose what he does or not think and talk about while he's at work and that is that! 

Grrrrr. Must be nice to set all the ground rules!

It didn't end on an overly positive note. Apparently he says the only acceptable talk while he's at work (2 weeks out of every month) is "idle, superficial chit-chat". Well! I wish I could just pretend something wasn't happening and it would just go away!

Sorry for the resentment coming through. I am very angry and very hurt. I know logically I shouldn't be, I expected this, but it still hurts. I know he may change his mind 10 times, and then after that 10 more times again, and I know that he may not mean what he says. I just hope he doesn't put his pride above our marriage, because I will not stick around if he continues on this denial road. 

I love him more than anything, but I just can't.

I don't know. I'm just confused and frustrated - and it's just the beginning of a very, very long journey.

Thanks for listening to my rant / vent.

Michelle


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## Mittens

Well today is D-Day.

The counseling appointment is at 3:00pm this afternoon.
I told him I was going and if he wishes to show up then he will, and if he doesn't than don't.

He keeps flipping back and forth and I can't get on that emotional rollercoaster. I needed to tape a step back and just realize that there is absolutely no point in worrying about it before hand or reacting to his decisions before hand because ultimately I really don't think it'll affect the outcome.

So we'll see. Each day at a time and just keep on keepin'.

Will update after appointment.

Thanks again for all the advice, wisdom, and support that's been here.

Michelle


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## Uptown

Michelle, thanks for the update. Even if he does show up, it is highly likely he will tell a story pulled out of thin air. BPDers are excellent actors because, lacking a stable self image to guide them, they start "acting" like people expect them to behave at a very early age. That said, there are a very small portion of BPDers who are sufficiently self aware to be able to confront their issues and discuss them. I therefore hope your H has that level of self awareness. I wish the two of you the very best at therapy.


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## Mittens

Well at least on that front he showed up and admitted to it, but it just kind of went haywire (for me) after that.
I'm not entirely sure why...
That's a whole other story.
Will update tomorrow at work, little awkward with him home at the moment.


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## Uptown

Michelle, I'm glad he showed up and admitted to it. That is remarkable for a man having strong BPD traits. I look forward to hearing about the therapy session when you're able to write tomorrow.


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## Mittens

Therapy was.. interesting.

Counselor wants us to 'learn to be a couple again'. He said some things that.. bothered me to say the least.

I had to laugh a little bit when the therapist did say his 'assignment' per se was to make me dinner, tee hee.

So as it stands nothing happened in terms of BPD (which I expected) but moreso things like making an effort to eat dinner together while he is in town, doing things together, etc etc.

I have no idea why it just made me feel defeated. Like something just sorta snapped. I'm still not entirely sure where that came from.

The day after was very ugly.. he raged, he blamed, he told me hates me and it's my fault, etc etc, then afterwards went out and bought me a pair of pearl earrings, but more importantly actually bought a card and wrote in it. He wrote that he was sorry for how he treated me, that a lot of his feelings were because he really was scared of getting hurt, thanked me for sticking by him and supporting him, and asked me to be patient while he tries.

And then there was last night.
For a few days (cycle) things were good, and then last night things just imploded - as per usual.

I need to find a re-charge. I keep realizing how incredibly emotionally exhausting / draining having arguments with him is. I don't know why, but it's almost different now. It hurts more when he says it's my fault and I'm just crazy, etc etc. I need to find something to keep me going again... Maybe it's just a phase with everything going on and being even more chaotic than it normally is. It's just so frustrating when I'm the only one fighting for our relationship it seems - which isn't true. I know he's trying. 

Due to his 2 weeks in - 2 weeks out schedule and the therapist's holidays the next scheduled appointment isn't till July.

FAAANTASTIC!
Ugh.

I apologise for the negativity. Up late last night scrapping it out and just physically and emotionally empty at the moment.

I don't know what to think.

Here's to hoping for a brighter day!!

Cheers.


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## Uptown

> Due to his 2 weeks in - 2 weeks out schedule and the therapist's holidays the next scheduled appointment isn't till July.


JULY!!! Are you kiddin' me??? Michelle, if your H were going for private individual therapy -- plus a group therapy session -- every week, it likely would be several years before you see a substantial difference in his behavior. Hence, at the rate you are going, it won't happen in your lifetime. Moreover, even if he were going weekly to private and group sessions, the chances are slim that he will stay with it long enough -- and work hard enough -- to make a difference. My exW, for example, went weekly for 15 years to six different psychologists (and two MCs) and it did not make even a dent in her disorder -- because she never acknowledged having it and never worked hard.

Although it is encouraging that your H said he suspects he has BPD, it is far from clear that he really believes it. When a BPDer is being threatened with abandonment (his greatest fear), he typically gets tunnel vision and can only focus on saying and promising whatever is necessary to keep his partner from leaving. If this is the case, all his "admissions" and promises will evaporate into thin air, as you've already seen dozens of times.


> Counselor wants us to 'learn to be a couple again'.... [my H's] 'assignment' per se was to make me dinner, tee hee.


This approach -- so typical of MCs -- is a total waste of time. It doesn't help to teach communication skills to a H who is throwing temper tantrums every few days. If your H has strong BPD traits as you suspect, he has the emotional development of a four year old. What is required to recover from such an enormous deficit is to receive guidance from a clinical psychologist having the specialized skills needed to treat BPDers. Most psychologists lack those skills and therefore usually refer such clients to colleagues who do. MCs (lacking a PhD in psychology) are not trained to identify BPD traits, much less treat them. 

If I were a 25 year old woman with no children to consider and with the world at my feet, I would divorce the H unless he has such a strong desire to address his issues that he seeks therapy with a qualified clinical psychologist and demonstrates significant progress. Granted, my advice is a case of "do as I say, not as I did." What I actually did was to hang on for 15 years, spending a small fortune on my exW's therapy until she kicked me out. By "kicked me out" I mean she called the police and had me arrested on a bogus charge and led away in handcuffs.

If you go down that path, you likely will find him walking out on you 15 years from now because, each year, he will grow increasingly resentful of your inability to make him happy (an impossible task with a BPDer). At age 40, your choice of available, emotionally healthy men will be greatly reduced from what you have now.


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## Faith-Hope-Love

Mittens,

I sincerely believe you are not being well-served when advised to get a divorce, especially when your posts clearly demonstrate that you don't want to leave your husband, you want to help him:

4-28-11
"Don't get me wrong, I would never leave him just because he has a mental illness..."

5-4-11
"He really, truly is an amazing man, and I do adore him with all my heart. I don't care how long it takes, the only singular thing I care about is how hard he tries."

While you do say that you won't stay with him if he doesn't put in the work on himself, it's obvious that you don't want it to come to that. I believe your actions and your thinking are correct, and I hope you have the courage of your convictions.

The MC's suggestion to "learn to be a couple again" may be an attempt to get the two of you thinking about and experiencing the love you had for each other earlier in your relationship, and thinking less about arguing. But, whenever the MC says something that you don't understand, don't agree with, or don't know the purpose of, please speak up right then.

If the MC does not know that you two suspect your husband has BPD, then he/she will be unsuccessful in his attempt to help you. If your husband won't bring up the BPD to the MC, and if you are in individual counseling, you may want to ask how best to get that information out into the open. Otherwise, you may just need to put it out there for the sake of successful counseling.

As for the arguments, again, get a therapist's opinion on how to handle it. My guess is that you will be told to say something like, "Your BPD has you out of control again, so I won't participate in an argument," and then leave the area. Because he does regain his senses and apologizes for his behavior, you may want to condition yourself to think that he does not really believe the mean things he says when the BPD acts up. 

Of course, whether he has BPD, and not something else, remains to be determined. Right now, it's just you two's opinion.

God is with you, Mittens. So, I'm rootin' for ya.


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## Mittens

Well I guess this clears things up / changes things a little...

The past few days have been very, very bad and ugly, and it all came to a head and imploded last night.

I noticed a few days ago that he was splitting / emotionally checking out. He didn't care. He wanted nothing to do with me or my feelings and was out for blood, and for the first time in 5 years I crumbled.

I don't know what snapped inside me, but the best way to describe it is that previous to the pivotal weekend of his I-Love-You-But-Not-In-Love-With-You speech then discovery of BPD and Give-Me-Another-Chance etc etc, I was standing alone on a beach. I had gotten so used to bottling up emotions / feelings because I knew my H couldn't handle them, I didn't even realize I was doing it. It was second nature to me.

As soon as the BPD came up it's like I finally realized I had a RIGHT to feel emotions and feelings and the worldest biggest, record breaking tidal wave came in... I have honestly never felt so overwhelmed by emotions.

The best way and only way I can think of to describe it is it's like my head's just not on straight. I just feel top-side. To put it in perspective in relation to me, in the 5 years I've been with my husband, I have never lost my temper. I have this uncanny ability to put the greater good above / suppress my emotions and maintain calm through the roughest, craziest times. (Which now I realize is very much typical 'non')

I didn't lose my temper, but I did completely over-react to something, which is just not me. The action was by no means significant, but it struck a chord with me, opened the flood gates, and I didn't stand a chance. I got unproportionally hurt.

It came to a head when I got home from work, we hadn't talked all day, (kind of a continuation of the scrap we got into the night before) and when we did talk he was just plain malicious. Finally I just sat down and cried and said I just didn't want to hurt anymore... He told me at that point that he was done.

He had no clue that I was / have ever been anything but composed and put together, and this was the first time he had any indication otherwise. I was honest. I told him I effed up, and I apologized, took responsibility for over-reacting, and told him that for the first time in as long as I can remember, I really feel lost. I feel overwhelmed. My head feels upside down. I don't know what the right thing to do is. 

After both of us talking, and him saying he doesn't know what he wants, and me saying that until he can get help, I'm not sure I can handle him- we decided to seperate or 'take a break', however you'd like to call it.

So this is the plan.. the 2 weeks he's up north working, I get the house, the 2 weeks he's home, I will stay with a friend. He offered me to stay at the house when he's home and he would just be scarce, but I said no, I honestly believe if there is any hope we need to do this fully and make a real go of it.

When we were talking it came up that sometimes... the damage that is done is so extensive, the only small sliver of hope that may be there, is trying to start over.. 

There are ground rules.. he was the first to bring it up and I am in total agreeance - no seeing other people. No contact / limited contact. If every few days he wants to call me to see how I'm doing, he can, and I told him he has every right too, but not to lose sight of why this is happening and what the point is. Basically if we can be seperated it will tell a lot of things.. it will tell him if he misses me / wants me in his life, because right now he doesn't know. Especially with BPD it's really hard to distinguish between splitting / disregulating and actually not loving someone. It's kind of like the 'final test' / last line of defense. 

It will allow me to sort my thoughts out and start getting my self esteem / self back. 

I have absolutely no concept or clue on how this is going to go, and I will be the first to admit that, but as it stands it really can't get any worse... and if this is the only small hope we've got, then might as well try.

Wow.. just... Wow..

I really, really, truly can't wait for this tide to break. I'm sick of having my head under water 

Thanks for reading.

Michelle


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## Mittens

Uptown / Faith-Hope-Love - 

I love him. I can't help that. I want nothing more in life than for us to be happy and in a somewhat functional relationship - and if this is the only way for that to one day be a possibility, then so be it.

The counselor did agree to the BPD. She said he is definitely high functioning, and not as extreme as a lot of cases, but whether that's because he's trained himself to to cloak a lot of it / cope with it in an unhealthy way, or because he's not as an extreme degree is completely unknown at this time.

I know I need to not enable him. I know he needs to learn to stand on his own 2 feet, even if that means falling on his face first. This is something I can't fix. I need to really let that sink into my head that I **can not** fix this for him.

I hope this leads to reconciliation instead of divorce, but who knows? 

Ugh.

Not fun.

Michelle


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## Uptown

Faith-Hope-Love said:


> I sincerely believe you are not being well-served when advised to get a divorce.


Faith, nobody has advised Michelle to go ahead and "get a divorce," as you say. What I actually advised is getting a divorce if four conditions are met: (1) there are no children to consider; (2) she is convinced her H has strong BPD traits; (3) he refuses to seek treatment with a professional trained to treat such traits; and (4) he does not remain in such treatment long enough to make a real difference. 

Although conditions (1) and (2) are satisfied, the outcome of conditions (3) and (4) are still unknown. What is most encouraging is that Michele's H embraced the notion that he has BPD -- even before speaking with the therapist -- and has gone to therapy once. What remains to be seen is whether he is just promising the sky to get his W back or, instead, he really is determined to learn to manage his BPD traits. I believe it is a good sign that he recognizes the importance of separating for a period in which he will be able to work on himself in therapy. This is encouraging because it suggests he is not just saying he has BPD traits to immediately get his W back.


Mittens said:


> The counselor did agree to the BPD. She said he is definitely high functioning, and not as extreme as a lot of cases, but whether that's because he's trained himself to to cloak a lot of it / cope with it in an unhealthy way, or because he's not as an extreme degree is completely unknown at this time.


Most people having strong BPD traits are high functioning and, if he were not in this group, you likely would never have dated very long, much less have married him. And he would not be able to handle his full time job. My exW, for example, is very high functioning. 

Generally, HF BPDers like your H and my exW can deal wonderfully well with casual friends, business associates, and complete strangers. None of those folks pose a threat of abandonment (there is no LTR to be abandoned). And none of them pose a threat of engulfment (there is no intimacy that can become engulfing). For that reason, some HF BPDers become excellent nurses, doctors, actors, politicians, and therapists.

Yet, despite their professionalism with colleagues and strangers, the untreated HF BPDers will go home at night to abuse the very people who love them. The reason is that, if you love a BPDer, you pose a threat of both abandonment and engulfment. 

As to the separation, I believe it will give you an exellent opportunity to see if he is serious about staying in therapy. It also will give him an opportunity, as you say, to start learning how to stand on his own two feet without the interference of enabling behavior from you. And it will give you an opportunity to stop walking on eggshells and thus restore the "old Michele," who likely disappeared five years ago. I believe you are going to be very surprised how rapidly she will return. Meanwhile, Michelle, I wish the very best for both of you!


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## Mittens

I'm definitely struggling.

I have no idea how to deal with the tidal wave of 5 years worth of pent-up feelings that just came flooding back.

Unfortunately with the separation I'll be giving the girlfriend I'm staying with money for letting me stay there and going to incurring other expenses so that eats up any excess I would have had for counseling for myself. Ugh!

He's acting like everything is normal. I have no idea how to act. I don't know if I should say "I love you" or do "normal" things. I am so confused. I have no idea how the logistics are going to work. I don't know how I'm "supposed" to act.

I know that no matter how this turns out, it will be for the better, I am just all over the map. I hope more than anything else that I will never have to find out how messy divorce can be. 

I just want him to be happy. And myself to be happy. 

My heart hurts 

I keep focusing on "one day at a time" and now "10 minutes at a time" etc etc.

He honestly doesn't know if his feelings for me are "love".. 
It hurts. Man does that hurt. It means his feelings may -never- have been love.. That just devastates me and feels like I have been absolutely had and bamboozled. I don't know if it's the BPD or if it's him. I haven't had the time and expertise at this point to tell the difference. I hope he continues with therapy. I hope he helps himself. I hope against hope it will work out in our favor instead of otherwise. I love him. I honestly do. 

I need to deal with me. I need to recoup me. I need to get *me* back. One thing he said at the counselors was that the woman whom he loved and was attracted too no longer was there.. I agreed and said that I have lost so much of myself, I'm not the same person. When he met me I was a bubbley, confident, happy-go-lucky spitfire. Now it's almost like I'm a shadow of my self? If that makes any sense?

I need to get my head on straight. The challenge is trying to figure out how to do that 

It's almost like on one hand everything is happening too fast and I don't have time to look around, but on the other hand it's going so impossibly slow that I just want it to speed up! 

Thank you so much for reading and the wise advice I have been given here. 

It'll get worse before it gets better, but as they say - Everything is okay in the end, and if it's not okay then it's not the end.

Cheers,

Michelle


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## Uptown

> He honestly doesn't know if his feelings for me are "love".. It hurts. Man does that hurt. It means his feelings may -never- have been love..


Michelle, because a BPDer does black-white thinking when under any stress at all, he is often out of touch with an entire set of feelings that are very real and are still inside of him. Granted, I believe untreated BPDers can only love in an immature way -- but it is real love nonetheless. 

My point, then, is that when a healthy man tells you he doesn't love you any more, he probably does not love you. But, when a BPDer tells you the same thing, there is a good chance he is only splitting. (And, if you get the healthy man angry enough, he will do splitting just like the BPDer man.) It's the same thing you experience with an angry child who claims he hates you. Yes, he believes it while he is saying it -- but only because he has split away the part of himself that feels the love.


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## Faith-Hope-Love

Michelle,

If you can't afford a counselor right now, you may want to read "Getting the Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix, the founder of Imago Therapy. The 20th anniversary edition came out a few years ago. It is available in paperback for around $15. You could probably get it at a library, but having a book you can mark up is better.

Some may not agree with Hendrix, and I'm not fully convinced of his theory, either. However, the exercises he prescribes can help tremendously, regardless of whether you're 100% on board with his reasoning. It would be better if both you and your husband could do the exercises, but as Hendrix points out, you can do some of it on your own.

The reason for suggesting Hendrix is something you wrote:
5-18-11
"I had gotten so used to bottling up emotions / feelings because I knew my H couldn't handle them, I didn't even realize I was doing it. It was second nature to me."
It sounds like you were repressing emotions, and Hendrix has lots to say about that.

5-19-11
"I need to deal with me. I need to recoup me. I need to get *me* back. One thing he said at the counselors was that the woman whom he loved and was attracted too no longer was there.. I agreed and said that I have lost so much of myself, I'm not the same person. When he met me I was a bubbley, confident, happy-go-lucky spitfire. Now it's almost like I'm a shadow of my self?"

If you can get your husband to read the book and participate in the exercises, then #12 "The Fun List" will help get back that bubbley, confident, happy-go-lucky spitfire. 

If he won't, then adapt the exercise just for you. Make a list of all the positive attributes you feel you've lost. Then write down an activity for each that will help restore each attribute. Then, go do them, one at a time. You will feel better about yourself. And even in this scenario, you may be able to get the H involved. Tell him exactly what you are doing and why, and invite him to come along. E.g., "You think I've lost confidence, and I have. So, I'm going to climb that rock wall attraction they have at the mall. Why don't you come along and watch me?" Prepare yourself for him saying no so that you won't be too disappointed. If he says yes, so much the better.

Go for it, spitfire!


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## Mittens

Wow.

Every day is a whirlwind. More like a class 10 tornado.

Saturday night we rented a movie and tried to spend a little time together before this all goes down on Tuesday.
It was great. We watched the movie. We cried. We talked. We cried. etc etc.

We actually even had 'couple relations' and not 10 minutes afterwards he gets a text from a girl he used to know years ago and ran into a few weeks back - she is at a bar in a town 45 minutes away, and needs a ride home to her house IN THAT TOWN. 

So he does it.

To his credit, he literally just went, picked her up, and dropped her off. That was it. But that was like a knife twisting in my heart. 

This girl is younger than me and I know she is trying to wheel him. I guarentee it. Who texts a married man (although I'm sure she knows we're having problems and separated) at 2am to drive 45 minutes to give her a 6 minute right home? I mean really. WHO does that? And he is so naive. 

I just want the hurt to stop...

Today I woke up, looked at him, and started bawling. I couldn't do it. So I just left. I told him I'm sorry, I just have to go...

He texted me in the afternoon saying he hoped I was having a good day, and again in the evening with chit-chat about him doing the brakes on his truck at his parents and such. He said he'll be late but he'll be home.

It makes it easier when we text a little bit. 

I told him my biggest fear is that as soon as go NC he'll forget about me, split, and get on with his life like nothing happened... 

After that we agreed that while he's up north, an email up to 3 times a week is okay, but only about things that don't matter. (Weather, stupid stuff, etc etc)

I have never hurt like this before. I just want it to stop and I can't run far or fast enough away to get away from it. 

My heart and soul ache.

I don't want this. I don't want to do this. I want him to get help and want us to be happy, but it's like everything is working against us right now.

It sounds horrible but I need him right now. When I cry and he holds me it makes it okay. It still hurts, but it makes it a little bit okay. 

I am so lost.

He keeps crying and saying that he doesn't want to hurt anymore, but he doesn't know why he's hurt. He feels overwhelmingly guilty about me.. He is worried what will happen to me, how I'll handle it emotionally, financially, etc etc.. 
I told him it was okay and he would find someone else one day, and he told me he never wants to be in another relationship or get emotionally attached because he never wants to hurt like this again.

What does that mean? How do I take that?

I just want to run......
I keep trying but it's not making it any easier. If anything it makes it harder because it's farther away from him.

I think I'm broken...

Michelle


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## Faith-Hope-Love

Michelle,

You two are at a critical point. The hurting is strong and deep, and you want it to stop. Your choices are to abandon the relationship in the hope of easing the pain, or to move through the pain in the hope of achieving a truly intimate relationship. 

It's like a huge wall is running across the path that is your life. It stops you from moving forward. Choosing divorce is accepting that the wall controls you, and so you will wander around on the same path you've already walked. Moving through the pain is creating an opening in the wall you can pass through so you can continue your journey and get to where you know you want to be.

To make matters worse, you two are relating in low moods, and so you feel like you only have one choice.

Separating also makes it harder to see your options. How can you work on your relationship if you are apart? Telling him that it's okay and he will find someone else some day isn't helpful, either. These things are a signal to him that you want a divorce. From all your writings, though, you give the impression that you don't want that.

He says he doesn't want to ever be in another relationship because he doesn't want to hurt like this again, and you ask how you are supposed to interpret that. I think he means that he loves you, his heart is breaking because he is losing you, and he would be too afraid to give his heart to someone else because this could happen again. It sounds to me like he is saying that he wants his marriage to you to continue and to get better. 

Take a deep breath, Michelle. Relax, do some activity that will lift your spirit. Then, go read the thread you posted last year, "Advice for Newlyweds." There is some good stuff there. Tell your husband how much you cherish him. Ask him, "What would it take to get us back together?" Don't expect an immediate answer. It might even be better to ask him to write the answer. Don't get defensive, and don't put him on the defensive. Relationships aren't easy. But, God made us to be in relationships, so they must be good. We just have to figure out how to make them work.


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## Uptown

Michelle, I believe it may be helpful to reread what you wrote two weeks ago (on 4/29):


> Uptown: I think the best part of all this ... is it does feel amazing to be setting boundaries. It feels almost empowering to know that I DO have the right to set boundaries, that *I'm* not crazy, *I* don't have unreal expectations, and it's not all *my* fault like he has gotten so good at projecting on me. I am definitely going to start making individual counseling appointments for myself, if only to resolve all the left-over feelings of the last 5 years and to help me sort my head out going forward. I really can't say enough how absolutely amazing it is to *KNOW* and actually hear that so much of it really didn't have anything to do with me (if that makes sense) and it wasn't caused by my actions or something I did or didn't say. It's like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. ... it just feels really great after so long of being emotionally beaten down to finally stand up and say "Uh huh. I will help you however I can but this is NOT my fault and you can not pin it on me".... My husband (like most BPD's) is very all-or-nothing, black-or-white. Without even realizing it I didn't see that aspect in some ways and have just rolled over and took it, like with his friends and such. No more. It's like knowing I now have a RIGHT to set boundaries....


Michelle, I believe a reasonable set of personal boundaries would include "I will not tolerate a H disrespecting me by leaving at 2 a.m. to provide free taxi service to a young woman at a bar 45 minutes away in another town." I believe it is important that you stop being a doormat and start enforcing those boundaries.


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## Uptown

Faith-Hope-Love said:


> Choosing divorce is accepting that the wall controls you, and so you will wander around on the same path you've already walked. Moving through the pain is creating an opening in the wall you can pass through so you can continue your journey and get to where you know you want to be.


Faith, I respect your efforts to help Michelle and her H by encouraging her to save her marriage. I nonetheless respectfully disagree with you on this issue. The "wall" in this case is a personality disorder that is so pernicious and firmly entrenched (since early childhood) that perhaps only 1% of BPD sufferers stay in therapy long enough to "create an opening in the wall," as you say. 

It is simply impossible for Michelle -- and even the professionals -- to make a difference because only her H can do the difficult work necessary to control his own emotions. That is, as far as the "wall" is concerned, Michelle has control over absolutely nothing. It therefore is pointless for her to keep suffering -- "moving through the pain" as you say -- in a futile effort to fix him. At issue, then, is whether the H has the self awareness and ego strength to fix himself. Unless, there is compelling evidence that he is determined to do that for himself -- not because she wants it -- I would encourage her to divorce him and find a young man who is capable of loving her (and their children) in a mature manner. 

The last thing I want to see is another young person -- a 25 year old woman in this case -- ruin her life by following the painful path I was on for 15 years. It does not end well for either party. Absent treatment, her H likely will abuse her and her children for many years. And, because he will grow increasingly resentful each year of her inability to make him happy (an impossible task), he likely will eventually split her black permanently and walk out on her -- leaving her to look for a healthy mate when she is in her forties, not her twenties. Moreover, divorcing a BPDer after you've had a chance to have children will make the divorce especially ugly and the harm will be spread among the children too.


> How can you work on your relationship if you are apart?


It is impossible for a person to "work" productively on a relationship with a BPD sufferer because, until he has years of treatment, he is incapable of sustaining a LTR. If it were possible, I would have been able to do so with my exW, on which I spent over $200,000 (above the insurance company payments) taking her to psychologists for weekly visits for 15 years. BPD is an ILLNESS. Hence, the notion that you can "work on it" and "create an opening" in it makes no more sense than trying to "work on" cancer and "create an opening" in blindness.

What needs work at this point is not the relationship but, rather, the H's illness. Until he learns to manage it, all the marriage counseling in the world won't make a dent in what has become a toxic relationship. And he likely can work on his illness better without Michelle around because, like I did with my exW, she is too quick to try to calm him and "help" him. 

His only chance of confronting his illness and learning to control it is for her to stop allowing him to get away with acting like a spoiled four year old (and free taxi driver to young women in surrounding cities). He must be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of his childish actions.


> Relationships aren't easy.


True. Even with emotionally healthy people, relationships take work and are not easy. With a man suffering strong BPD traits, however, a healthy relationship is _impossible_ -- not difficult. The LTR simply cannot be sustained without it being toxic and harmful to both parties. Because Michelle's H has a terrible fear of both intimacy and abandonment, she will be causing him pain both when she draws near to him and when she backs off to give him breathing space. There is absolutely NO safe midway position that does not hurt him.


> But, God made us to be in relationships, so they must be good. We just have to figure out how to make them work.


IMO, it is _impossible_ for one person to make a relationship work. It can work only if BOTH partners are able to work on it. Significantly, in this case, the H cannot possibly know how to work on the relationship as long as his BPD traits -- a _thought disorder _-- keeps distorting his perceptions of Michelle's intentions and motivations.


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## Faith-Hope-Love

No, Uptown, the "wall" is not the BPD. It is the pain of emptiness Michelle and her husband are experiencing. Too many couples get into so much pain that they think the only solution is divorce. Many relationship theories argue that this is a stage that a troubled relationship must get through if their marriage is to succeed.

Your extensive experience with your ex-wife's BPD combined with your study of it makes you something of an authority on the subject. Yet, you use strongly negative words like incapable and impossible, and apply them to all BPDers. It may be true for your ex-wife, but not for all BPDers. BTW, Michelle's husband has not been officially diagnosed with BPD. There has been no mention of him being tested by a qualified psychiatrist, only that the marriage counselor agrees with the couple's self-diagnosis.

Her husband needs her support to help in his recovery. As bpdfamily.com states: "Recovery is significantly faster and at higher rates for people that are supported by family (as opposed to those isolated and on their own)." You are correct in saying that one person cannot make a relationship work. As he gets better, he will be able to work with her on their marriage relationship. Just because your ex-wife couldn't doesn't mean that he can't.


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## Uptown

Faith, it is rare to find someone disagreeing with me in such a calm, measured, and kind manner. You clearly are a very gracious lady. I therefore find it all the more perplexing that you are so insistent -- now for the second time -- that someone in this thread "thinks the only solution is divorce." As I explained above, I don't think that way. And I don't see any evidence that Michelle thinks that way. So we agree with you that divorce is not the only option. The best option, of course, is for her H to seek therapy with a good clinical psychologist and to remain in therapy long enough to make a real improvement in his behavior.


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## Mittens

Wow.... WOW

How so much can change in so little time...

The night he went to go pick up that girl.. I left out the fact that not 5 minutes before hand we had just finished having 'couple' relations...

Then later on I get this message on facebook from some girl (apparently the 'other girls' friend) I don't know and have never met saying all these things about my H.. That he kissed this girl, that he told her he had feelings for her, that he's basically been 'wooing' her and trying to date her since this whole thing imploded. She said he told me he said he was already divorced and all kinds of stuff. It literally turns my stomach just to think about it. Thankfully I had the foresight to delete it because I guarentee I would keep going back and reading it..

He denies everything. 

Which, I would believe, if he then didn't start accusing me of trying to break into his phone... That logically to me says that there is obviously something on his phone to support at least some of what this girl told me. I have no idea for sure because I didn't touch his phone, but I know something happened... I'm not sure if it's as extreme as this girl says it is between her friend and my H, but I just know in my gut that something is going on.

He has been hanging out with a good friend of his that is a very good man, but really not moral in the ways of women, and I could see him encouraging my H to do whatever he likes and thinks would make him feel better right now.. (distraction and replacement).

He never told me what this girl or her friend said when he confronted them, but I'm assuming the girl and her friend denied all of it. Well, that's if he even confronted them at all. One thing her friend did say was that this girl felt really awkward because she didn't have the same feelings towards my H. But I have no idea what to believe... He just keeps saying that *I* am the liar and I broke into his phone and I'm making all of this up. Honestly I truly wish I was. It would make my life a lot simpler...

He left for out of town yesterday morning and as he was leaving he kissed me on the forehead and said bye. I spent the next 10 minutes throwing up. The thought of him kissing or touching another woman and then touching me makes me physically ill. It hurts on a level that nothing else can.. Especially the SAME NIGHT we were together. 

I've been reading a LOT on bpdfamily, and it seems a common theme to emotionally 'checkout' then immediately move on to someone else for BPD'ers. 


And what kills me is he is still trying go out of his way to profess his innocence to me. I know him. I know when he's lying to me and I know when something is going on. He keeps trying to tell me I'm just being insecure. The funny part of that is of any emotion I am feeling right now, insecure isn't there. I may not be sure of where I am at in life, but I am sure of MYSELF. 
Not to mention he gets this HORRIBLE look of guilt every time he looks at me. If I had too I could probably pinpoint the day that he started whatever it is that he has with this girl, because I could pinpoint the day he started acting strangely. 

After I told him about the facebook message he "went and straightened' the girl out about how 'they are just friends' and blah blah blah... That night he came home about 11pm. I wish I could ignore logic and my gut and my instinct and believe him. I wish more than ANYTHING else I could, but unfortunately I'm not stupid.. 

And the worst part is, if he was honest about it I would understand.... as horrible as that may sound. 

I can handle anything if he was honest about it.. It is literally tearing me up inside knowing he's lying. And lying repeatedly to my face. I made a comment to him about "No matter what happened or didn't happen, you know in your heart what's going on and what's right and what's wrong.".. 
It's like whenever this other girl comes up he wants to end it. But as soon as the subject passes he is all about 'working on the marriage through this break'.

He's in a tail-spin and it's SO painful to have to sit back and watch... 

He's slipping and I don't know how to help him get his footing again.

He's stopped crying. He's stopped feeling. He has totally dysregulated.

No contact lasted until the morning when he texted me saying have a good day, and then this afternoon when he messaged me on facebook telling me "Hey know we aren't supposed to talk but I just wanted to let you know that I have never cheated on you. and don't plan on it... just sayin.." verbatim.
We haven't talked today so far...

Then when I responded to him he told me he couldn't talk about this and he needed space. 
"I hate you, don't leave me" is all I can think about it. It's like a really high-stake game of tug-of-war.

I emailed him and told him that I need my space as much as he does, and we can talk as friends about weather or inconsequential things, but we can't be having these conversations for either of our sakes.

I need to focus on me. I need to get myself back. I need to findout where the girl is that's been torn down for the past 5 years. I need to work on my own co-dependency and learn that I can't fix everything and everyone and take the world on myself. 

He's not spending any time by himself. He's doing everything he can to run himself ragged and run away from what's going on.

It hurts so bad to know that he is lying to my face. Repeatedly. 
It was so immediate. He was able to forget about me for this girl immediately. 

Well I shouldn't say that. I don't know exactly what's going on to say he forgot about me 'for this girl', but I am smart enough to know something is and it's to do with her. It REALLY urks me that he keeps trying to blame it on my 'insecurity'. I am basing my thoughts on logic and what my gut is telling me. Logic that I CAN'T deny. 

I'm sure he's feeling overwhelmed and I can see a part of him *knowing* bpd makes sense and he has it, and he will logically admit it, and then another part of him wanting to believe there's nothing wrong with him and it's all in MY head. It's got to be a huge shock to the identity to be diagnosed with a mental illness, and I couldn't imagine. I honestly truly feel for him on that one. 

He keeps going back and forth between "we're on a break to try again for us", like a last ditch effort, and he "can't handle it, can't see it working, and wants to end it right now".

My marriage hinges on this. It kills me to watch him spiral.

I just want him to be honest... It's like by being able to lie to me he's pulling farther and farther away. I am trying to BELIEVE in him SO bad right now. I am trying to believe that for HIS sake he will go to counseling.. he will get the help he needs.. he will be able to have a functional relationship in his life - whether that is with me or with someone else. He deserves it. He is a very good man with some very big obstacles to face.. the kicker is he's the only way that can decide if he'll face them and deal with them or not, or just run away from them and continue the cycle. Get into another relationship - wait the year to 16 months untill it wears off and the patterns start. Honestly I can't see another girl (especially someone younger) putting in as much as time as I have. 

I don't by any means have any ill-will towards him.. I want him to be happy above all else - regardless of what that entails and who it includes.

I don't know what to believe or what to feel right now...I can't handle the smother then disappear routine. My head is divided and messed up.

Ugh. It's like a horrible nightmare that I just can't wake up from...


Feeling broken....

-Michelle


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## Uptown

> He's in a tail-spin and it's SO painful to have to sit back and watch... He's slipping and I don't know how to help him get his footing again.


Michelle, I'm so sorry. That recent outcome is simply heart breaking. For "fixers" and caregivers like us, standing helplessly on the sidelines while a loved one is struggling to stay above water is extremely painful. What is so tragic is that _we know the path to safety _and our loved one will not believe us. How can he? He's incapable of trusting us. Absent that trust, there is no foundation on which to build a friendship, much less a marriage.


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## Mittens

Wow.
Rereading the struggle I was in a few months ago really is an eye opener on where I was and how far I've come.
I'm involved in sports again, and even started a league in my hometown I moved back too.
I have my friends back and amazing amount of people that love and care for me. I am getting *myself* back and it feels incredible.
I despise the fact that he took the only family I've ever known away from me, though. Christmas was really hard... His family hates his girlfriend (the one he cheated on me with) and thinks its disgusting that he moved her in within a couple days of me moving out... but that also isn't shocking with BPD and his complete inability to be alone.
I am so comfortable being by myself. It's such an amazing feeling... I forgot what it was like, and how much I desperately missed it. I forgot what it was like to do things I enjoy. 
It never ceases to astound me how easily a switch can flick and love can turn into indifference... I think how it ended is why I am so unfeeling towards the deteriation of my marriage.
I started a thread in the 'going through divorce' forum, and that felt strange... 
One day farther is one day closer.
It's funny, one of his best friends ended up becoming a great friend and pillar of strength to me throughout everything. A little irony to throw into the situation, lol.
Anywhoo.
that's the update on that.

Thank you all for the advice, wisdom, and support while I went through a very ugly time...

Michelle


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## Uptown

Michelle, thanks so much for coming back to give us an update. I had been wondering how you were doing. From your description, it sounds like you are doing very well, very well indeed. You should be very proud of yourself for having the strength and self esteem to establish strong personal boundaries -- and then to enforce them. 

At this point in your life, it is important to avoid running into the arms of another man just like the one you left. That means finding a stable, emotionally available man. Unlike your Ex, the stable men won't provide the fireworks in the beginning that is so common for those who desperately need you. But the stable guys will deliver over the long haul. I wish you the best and hope you are having a reasonably good holiday period.


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## Mittens

It's funny you say that...
There was a man who owns a company that supplies a sport I play (and started a league in my home town doing) that I met, and got to know a little bit... He's good looking, charismatic, funny, exciting, etc etc.. and I cut off contact.
Little red flags that made me so reminiscent of my stbxh just tweaked something in my head and made me realize that I *refuse* to go down that road again.
We didn't 'date' as I am soooooo far beyond not okay with dating anytime soon or doing anything other than healing and spending time with myself, but it was funny watching the evolution of myself being able to recognize the little signs I never saw with my ex-husband and being able to not only pick up on them, but also recognize that they had the potential to one day be toxic.
Some days are better or worse than others, but every single day is 1 day farther 

Cheers,
Michelle


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## Uptown

> We didn't 'date' as I am soooooo far beyond not okay with dating anytime soon....


Michelle, you are wise to wait until you feel ready to date again. Coming out of a 15-year relationship, I had no desire to date for two years. And then I started slowly.


> It was funny watching the evolution of myself being able to recognize the little signs I never saw with my ex-husband and being able to not only pick up on them, but also recognize that they had the potential to one day be toxic.


It is good that you are protecting yourself by being alert to the red flags. Please keep in mind, however, that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine BPD traits. Splitting, for example, is something we all do many times a day -- every time we daydream or are suddenly startled. So do not be surprised if you start seeing the traits everywhere to some degree. These traits do not become a problem until they are so strong that they undermine the person's ability to sustain a LTR.


> Some days are better or worse than others, but every single day is 1 day farther.


In my experience, I found that the really bad days kept happening, giving me the feeling that I was right back where I started from. What was changing, however, is that the bad days became spaced farther and farther apart. Eventually, they did stop altogether.


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## Mittens

Wow. 
I just re-read this entire post and looking back can't believe how far I've come 
Since I finalized my divorce, I've bought my dream car, bought my own house, been promoted at work and started a roller derby league that I LOVE! 
Thank you so much to everyone (if anyone is still around that did) who supported and advised me in such a rough time.
I am so genuinely proud of the person I am today, and I am happy with the confidence, spunk, energy, self esteem, etc etc that I got back.
It's amazing how losing someone can give you yourself back


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## Uptown

Michelle, that's wonderful news! Thanks so much for returning, about a year and half later, to let us know you are doing so well. Your experience will be an inspiration to others who are trying to break free of toxic relationships. Incidentally, did your exH ever seek therapy and actually work on addressing his issues? I ask because you said that, when you brought BPD information to his attention, he believed that it described him very accurately.


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## Mittens

Uptown said:


> Michelle, that's wonderful news! Thanks so much for returning, about a year and half later, to let us know you are doing so well. Your experience will be an inspiration to others who are trying to break free of toxic relationships. Incidentally, did your exH ever seek therapy and actually work on addressing his issues? I ask because you said that, when you brought BPD information to his attention, he believed that it described him very accurately.


Unfortunately my ex-husband hasn't addressed his issues. He is aware that he very much and definitely has BPD, but refuses therapy.
Him and his current gf have had problems with his drinking adn all the behaviors I did (shocking!).
Funny watching history repeat itself - however this time I am on the outside and I CHOOSE for it to NOT be me!


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## Uptown

Mittens said:


> Unfortunately my ex-husband hasn't addressed his issues. He is aware that he very much and definitely has BPD, but refuses therapy.


Michelle, I'm sorry to hear that he declines to get professional help -- but that is all the more reason for you to be glad that you managed to get out of that toxic relationship. Take care, Michelle.


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