# Too much expectations or tolerance?



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

It seems so hard to have a good marriage these days. The thread "are we expecting too much from our spouses" got me thinking. I am stuck between the idea that we are expecting too much out of them but at the same time I hear too many stories about sad, lonely, loveless marriages, and I think are we tolerating too much? 

No marriage is perfect I get that. But when I read some of these peoples threads I feel an incredible sadness, and I think to myself... I can't believe how much people are willing to tolerate. I don't know if it's a self esteem issue that they don't see their worth. If its a depression issue that people give up in life, if they just expect way to much from their spouse, if they only see the negative. Does life beat us up so bad that we all become cynics and give up on trying? 

I see a common problem.... Someone doesn't like how they are being treated (lack of sex, romance, respect ect.). They become unhappy. The other spouse feels like nothing they do is ever good enough and it gets exhausting being with someone who is critical and never happy. 

Sorry I'm blabbing. I don't know what the fundamental problem with marriage is and why it's so hard to be content with it. Too much expectation or too much tolerance?


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## maritalloneliness (Mar 18, 2015)

It could feel that you are doing everything right but the rightness is being seen through our own perception. To your spouse, you could be doing everything wrong. There's this profound disconnect that sometimes comes out of the blue and hit you like an anvil from the cartoons. So, you try and change to be more of what your partner needs but by that time it's too late. They've moved on and your left adjusting to a new kind of normal. Very sad.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> Too much expectation or too much tolerance?


Every marriage is unique. 

It could be that the couple got married too soon. They like the idea of marriage and fantasy that was in their minds. But the reality didn't live up to the fantasy. So, you could say in that case, too much expectation. 

It could be that something changed after the marriage. Major life events (childbirth, major illness, death of a loved one) can cause people to rethink priorities. Sometimes they just don't cope with the changes well and dysfunctional patterns form (or become amplified). The person who didn't change may spend a lot of time in disbelief, or hoping for the person to 'find their way'. That would be too tolerant. 

I don't think we can look to society for the reasons a marriage isn't working. You can only look at the marriage.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I don't think it's too much in the way of expectations or tolerance, but rather the wrong expectations or (in)tolerance.

I think most people are rather simple in terms of what they want and need. A spouse only has to provide some basics - NOT what they themselves need/want, and NOT what they THINK their spouse SHOULD need/want. They must provide what their spouse wants/needs, in the way they want/need it. Mostly, these are acceptance, love, affection, and sincere (appropriate) action to enhance the health, well-being, and happiness of their partner. If both do this, then it's easy. It gets difficult when you think you know better, or buy into some idea or system that is contrary to these simple ideas. (Yes, if one or both are damaged, delusional, or indifferent, it's going to be much harder to achieve!)

You should expect to be treated in the ways you need, and refuse to tolerate behaviors that are unloving or manipulative. The rest is negotiable.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Well, I think part of the issue if you are just relying on TAM, people post here with issues, there aren't a lot of people coming on here to talk about how great their marriage is. With this, you get a disproportionately high amount of negative stories


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I am just struggling with this. I don't know if I am expecting too much out of my husband or if I am settling for a life/relationship I don't want, and I'm tolerating too much. I think my expectation in my head for marriage is unrealistic and too romantic. I can argue both sides. And then I think, maybe we are just a poor match. Maybe I am making my relationship too much of my life and happiness and I am coming up short. I think I'm just going through a marriage crisis, I am 30 with no kids yet and I keep thinking is there better out there? Can I be happier? Is it me and I'm just depressed or impossible to make happy? Anyway I'm just babbling.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> I am just struggling with this. I don't know if I am expecting too much out of my husband or if I am settling for a life/relationship I don't want, and I'm tolerating too much. I think my expectation in my head for marriage is unrealistic and too romantic. I can argue both sides. And then I think, maybe we are just a poor match. Maybe I am making my relationship too much of my life and happiness and I am coming up short. I think I'm just going through a marriage crisis, I am 30 with no kids yet and I keep thinking is there better out there? Can I be happier? Is it me and I'm just depressed or impossible to make happy? Anyway I'm just babbling.


How is communication with your H?

I would imagine even the strongest of marriages go through periods where you start to question things. I know I have been there, start getting into the whole "Grass is greener" syndrome, etc...


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> How is communication with your H?
> 
> 
> 
> I would imagine even the strongest of marriages go through periods where you start to question things. I know I have been there, start getting into the whole "Grass is greener" syndrome, etc...




Our communication is not the best. I'm pretty sure my husband has passive aggressive personality. Sometimes talking to him is impossible and it's hard to feel connection with someone like this.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> Our communication is not the best. I'm pretty sure my husband has passive aggressive personality. Sometimes talking to him is impossible and it's hard to feel connection with someone like this.


Have you done anything to possibly try and shake things up or you just feel like this is the way things are going to be?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

As Motorola would say, it's a matter of sigma. How many standard deviations your expectations are off from the population stereotypes of your prevailing culture, for example. 

Within one sigma maybe you can compromise but if you're in the mythical six sigma territory and expect the moon and stars - or provide zip in return, then you have a problem.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> Have you done anything to possibly try and shake things up or you just feel like this is the way things are going to be?




I've tried talking to him about it. Nothing changes. We talked about going to therapy for communication but right now we are too busy and it's not an option.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I read those threads too, and they make me sad. There could be a couple of things, though. First, no one has the power to make you happy, if you're not happy already. There seems to be a lot of focus on 'he/she doesn't make me happy.' It strikes me as some of those people have other issues going on, and want to blame the marriage for their overall malaise. That's unfair, and unreasonable to look at marriage as a panacea for all that ails you. People need to be real about their own issues, and not rely on their spouses to make everything better.

But, an abusive or cheating spouse definitely can bring down a person's overall happiness, and elevate their stress levels. For those cases, there are some here who tolerate WAY too much. They give chance after chance, and clearly the spouse just isn't interested in changing, because they keep cheating. 

So, there's a combination that I see here. Interesting topic!


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> It seems so hard to have a good marriage these days. The thread "are we expecting too much from our spouses" got me thinking. I am stuck between the idea that we are expecting too much out of them but at the same time I hear too many stories about sad, lonely, loveless marriages, and I think are we tolerating too much?
> 
> No marriage is perfect I get that. But when I read some of these peoples threads I feel an incredible sadness, and I think to myself... I can't believe how much people are willing to tolerate. I don't know if it's a self esteem issue that they don't see their worth. If its a depression issue that people give up in life, if they just expect way to much from their spouse, if they only see the negative. Does life beat us up so bad that we all become cynics and give up on trying?
> 
> ...


You make very good point here and really all note worthy. I think there are many who stay in dead end relationships because of fears, family, religion, financial reasons, health issues, etc. Many have endured far more than they ever should and some cannot see that they need to get out, they are in a state of denial of their situation and think if they just try harder, or a different way, or that maybe a counselor could open their spouse's eyes or they feel that as long as they focus on their career or family it will be okay to live as is.

I agree too that we do get disappointed when our spouse does not meet our needs and for men that seems to be sexually and with admiration. For women perhaps more so thru support, engagement, physical attention that does not always lead to sex, verbal signs of love and time spent together. When a spouse does not get their needs met then marriage many times goes it's separate ways. If the two can talk and meet each other with their needs I think their can be success and happiness but I think that is part of the problem. Whether it is because of the hurts or because the lack of interest in the marriage or the spouse you find couples unable to meet each other's needs.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

My husband is going through this crisis as well but with life. He worked so hard to become a surgeon. He is now almost done. And he was telling me how he feels... Restless and not content. He was like is this what life is all about? We're going to then have kids and this is going be it? He was telling me how he didn't feel like he has lived yet (he's 30). He feels like he "wasted" his youth becoming a doctor. He seems depressed and hopeless. And I keep telling him that life can be however he wants it to be. We can live an exciting fun life but he's just not seeing it. He's like realistically we're going to have kids move to the suburbs I'm going to work everyday, and be tired and stressed out in the weekends...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> My husband is going through this crisis as well but with life. He worked so hard to become a surgeon. He is now almost done. And he was telling me how he feels... Restless and not content. He was like is this what life is all about? We're going to then have kids and this is going be it? He was telling me how he didn't feel like he has lived yet (he's 30). He feels like he "wasted" his youth becoming a doctor. He seems depressed and hopeless. And I keep telling him that life can be however he wants it to be. We can live an exciting fun life but he's just not seeing it. He's like realistically we're going to have kids move to the suburbs I'm going to work everyday, and be tired and stressed out in the weekends...


Well, definitely don't even consider kids until you guys get things sorted out with yourselves. Definitely sounds like a mid life crisis. Really, you can't look back, all you can do is look forward. What can your H and you do to improve things, make life feel like it is worth living? What do you feel like you have missed out on?


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I felt that way, when I stepped away from faith. Returning to faith really helped me gain a more positive perspective on life, that ''this'' isn't all there is, thankfully. Life is great, and it is what we make of it, but the world has many voices speaking to us at once, all pulling us in different directions, trying to tell us what should be of value to us. It's hard to find the right voice to follow, if any at all.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

The problem is I am down for fun stuff all the time. I can literally get into anything. I'm active and love to do out doorsy stuff. My husband has always been an indoor type of person. He doesn't have any hobbies except soccer. He likes going out to nice places to eat or drink or whatever but right now we can't afford that. For our honeymoon I wanted to go backpacking through Europe for a month. He was so not into this. He wanted to go to a resort and lay on the beach. No problem, I would love this too. I am always trying to get him to hike with me or go camping or just get into literally anything that doesn't cost a lot of money. And I think doing something outdoors is really good, sometimes people need fresh air you know. The problem is he doesn't want to do anything. But he complains about not really living. It's frustrating for me Bc he complains but doesn't change anything. It's like he's depressed, and he's comfortable being in that area.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> The problem is I am down for fun stuff all the time. I can literally get into anything. I'm active and love to do out doorsy stuff. My husband has always been an indoor type of person. He doesn't have any hobbies except soccer. He likes going out to nice places to eat or drink or whatever but right now we can't afford that. For our honeymoon I wanted to go backpacking through Europe for a month. He was so not into this. He wanted to go to a resort and lay on the beach. No problem, I would love this too. I am always trying to get him to hike with me or go camping or just get into literally anything that doesn't cost a lot of money. And I think doing something outdoors is really good, sometimes people need fresh air you know. The problem is he doesn't want to do anything. But he complains about not really living. It's frustrating for me Bc he complains but doesn't change anything. It's like he's depressed, and he's comfortable being in that area.


So before you guys got married what would you do for fun, or has it always been a struggle to get him to do things that you want to do? From what you describe, he does sound depressed and counseling may be the way to go


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> So before you guys got married what would you do for fun, or has it always been a struggle to get him to do things that you want to do? From what you describe, he does sound depressed and counseling may be the way to go




We met and dated in high school, been together since high school, college, medical school and now residency. We would just hang out together. Go to the mall, go camping with friends, go on picnics, go to sports games, play tennis and soccer. As time went on we were just more busy and focusing on our career and we did less and less. Now it's like our connection is gone or maybe it's just life beating us up but we use to hang out and do nothing but still enjoy each other. We still take walks almost daily but the conversation is less and less with him. (I can talk non stop. When I do stop talking, there is no conversation). Now it's like pulling teeth to get him to do anything. I want to get into biking, the weather is so nice now and there are tons of beautiful places to bike here, my husbands response... I would never be caught dead on a bike, it's so embarrassing. Then the other day I convinced him to go hiking. He complained the whole drive there. And literally walked as fast as he could to finish the hike as fast as possible. And I am the type of person who can stop and smell the roses and get into learning about trees/animals/ or whatever. I can literally get into anything and love to learn. 

He won't stop and enjoy life. I love nature and sports. He likes cars and soccer. He cares way to much about how he appears to others. 

Here's an example. He is healthy, he runs a lot. He runs to be healthy and stay skinny that's it. I took up running with the goal to run a half marathon. Maybe do some fun races with my hubby. He was not into signing up any races or fun Spartan races or whatever. He was like I don't want to train I don't have time for that I just run Bc I want to be healthy.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I did the super spartan race with my W, that was a lot of fun. Same as you, my W took up running as well with a goal (she did run a half marathon). 

This is a tough one. From what you describe, there doesn't seem to be a lot of compatibility. The complaining would drive me nuts TBH. Maybe not as bad, but reminds me of my W a little of late. She gets so wrapped up with our kids and the house, she just seems to lose focus of everything else (unable to let things go). She will complain about us never getting time together, but all she needs to do is a make a call for a babysitter (I am the one who ends up having to make plans). She had been complaining about her body, but when I bring up all the different exercise options she has there seems to be an excuse of why she can't do it. She just gets in these ruts for whatever reason, whether it be mild depression, mid life crisis, etc... It is tough for me to deal with at times b/c I am a rather positive person and being around someone who is negative/complaining is very draining, but fortunately I can usually shake her out of it with enough support and persistence. 

Honestly, not too long ago I was probably in a bit of a mid life crisis mode as well (not regrets, but felt like life was passing me by, etc...) but I used that as motivation to try and right the ship. Thoughts still do creep into my head, but I think that is just human nature.

Does your H appear to have an inability to let work go when he is not there? Also, for the things he likes to do (you mentioned cars and sports), are those things you spend time with him doing? Has he ever been diagnosed with depression or it running in his family?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Katie,
It's hard enough to - find love. Reason dating is so difficult, people focus on feeling love without first assessing compatibility.

If you have a good level of compatibility - it becomes so much easier to accept your partner as is. 





katiecrna said:


> It seems so hard to have a good marriage these days. The thread "are we expecting too much from our spouses" got me thinking. I am stuck between the idea that we are expecting too much out of them but at the same time I hear too many stories about sad, lonely, loveless marriages, and I think are we tolerating too much?
> 
> No marriage is perfect I get that. But when I read some of these peoples threads I feel an incredible sadness, and I think to myself... I can't believe how much people are willing to tolerate. I don't know if it's a self esteem issue that they don't see their worth. If its a depression issue that people give up in life, if they just expect way to much from their spouse, if they only see the negative. Does life beat us up so bad that we all become cynics and give up on trying?
> 
> ...


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> This is a tough one. From what you describe, there doesn't seem to be a lot of compatibility. The complaining would drive me nuts TBH. Maybe not as bad, but reminds me of my W a little of late. She gets so wrapped up with our kids and the house, she just seems to lose focus of everything else (unable to let things go). She will complain about us never getting time together, but all she needs to do is a make a call for a babysitter (I am the one who ends up having to make plans). She had been complaining about her body, but when I bring up all the different exercise options she has there seems to be an excuse of why she can't do it. She just gets in these ruts for whatever reason, whether it be mild depression, mid life crisis, etc... It is tough for me to deal with at times b/c I am a rather positive person and being around someone who is negative/complaining is very draining, but fortunately I can usually shake her out of it with enough support and persistence.
> 
> Honestly, not too long ago I was probably in a bit of a mid life crisis mode as well (not regrets, but felt like life was passing me by, etc...) but I used that as motivation to try and right the ship. Thoughts still do creep into my head, but I think that is just human nature.
> 
> Does your H appear to have an inability to let work go when he is not there? Also, for the things he likes to do (you mentioned cars and sports), are those things you spend time with him doing? Has he ever been diagnosed with depression or it running in his family?



Exactly. My husband seems to let life pass him by without being active in it. Then he complains about it. It's like he doesn't realize that our life is in our control (to a certain degree). He identifies that there is a problem, (not feeling like he is living) but he had a hard time pin pointing exactly what that means. When I ask him what does his dream life look like, he can't answer it. He doesn't know exactly what is missing or what he wants. He just FEELS like he's not living life and he feels restless and not content. But this drives me crazy Bc he can't identify what he wants, because I don't think he knows what he wants or what makes him happy, and all he can do Is complain Bc he doesn't know how to fix it. It's frustrating. 

He said... I don't know, everyone seems to have these crazy fun stories of all these things that they have done. And that blew my mind Bc he is not a adventurous kind of guy. And I think what he was jealous of... Was how excited and happy these guys were when they were telling their stories and I'm sure he wants to be that happy and excited about something too. Part of me feels bad for him, but part of me is annoyed Bc he is doing this to himself. He is making his work his life and this is a recipe for disaster and unhappiness. Especially if he thinks he is unhappy now and doesn't feel like he had lived and he's only 30, wait until he is 40, 50 and nothing changed. 

As far as the car and soccer thing. The problem with these "hobbies" are they he doesn't like like to DO anything about them. He likes to watch soccer, and is constantly looking up soccer info on his phone. He joined a pick up league but had to drop it Bc he couldn't make games with his schedule. And the whole car thing... He loves super nice expensive cars. It's not like he wants to get an old car and restore it (even I would do this if he wanted to). He just likes to look at nice cars. So no we haven't done much together in this area except go to the big car show in NYC every year. 

I think he is depressed. He agrees maybe he is a little but doesn't think it warrants help or medication. I don't know if there is depression in his family because no one would ever seek help or even admit they have a problem in his family. His dad is like him though, loves to stay home and do nothing. No hobbies at all. All they talk about is waiting for grand children, and Sunday dinners when we move back home. Their life is my worst fear.


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## bankshot1993 (Feb 10, 2014)

Not so sure this is in line with the current conversation but my answer to the originally posed question.

My thoughts and understanding of marriage (right or wrong, just my thoughts)

biologically
Anthropologists and evolutionary studies show us that from a biological standpoint humans were never meant to be pair coupled for life or even monogamous for that matter. promiscuity and the drive to procreate and spread our genes is deeply encoded into our DNA. The concept of Marriage and pair bonding is contrary to our natural instincts.

When humans engage in new relationships they are flooded with endorphins and dopamine which control our moods. This flood of "happy drugs" is usually interpreted as love. These elevated levels typically stay that way for the first 2 years and then start to decline after that 2 year honeymoon phase. All of this is nature by design and is meant to ensure propagation of the species. Male and female meet, feel a strong attraction that heightens their happy drug out put. This creates a desire to be together and increase familiarity until breeding takes place. The 2 years of elevated dopamine and endorphins is meant to keep the male around long enough to bond, breed, protect through the gestation period and the recovery period after birth of the offspring and than finally move on.

Biology tells us that the more partners we have and the more we spread our seed the greater the chances of our genes being successful and surviving beyond our life cycle.

Socially.
Marriage and monogamy were concepts brought in and introduced by the church as a method of control. The church developed a moral compass that was consistent with their teachings and used the frame work of that moral code to develop the philosophy of marriage. The problem with this is that it goes completely against your natural drive and what your DNA is trying to make you do. It was however an attainable goal because at the time the average life span was half of what it is now so pair bonding meant that you were coupled for maybe 15-20 years. with life expectancy now being around 85-90 years old and increasing all the time pair boding could now mean a coupling of in excess of 60 years.

What does all this mean. We were never meant to be with one person for that long but social pressure and changing societal norms apply pressure to deny nature putting us in conflict with ourselves. So we end up unhappy in our marriage and our life and don't even know why. we become bored and complacent because in denying our natural urges to find a new mate and procreate we've taken away one of natures greatest drives and we haven't found anything to replace it with.

In many ways, Polyamorists have the right idea. Don't get me wrong, I'm to jealous I could never do the whole polyamory thing but in principle they are onto something. They have a primary partner that provides them the comfort and security of stability. This addresses our primal subconscious need for security. then they have other partners that the get emotionally invested in to satisfy the natural desire to find new relationships. This addresses the issue about denying natures need to seek out new partners to propagate the species. I'm sure everyone remembers what it was like when you first met your partner and how exciting it was and how you wanted to be with them all the time. Now here you are twenty years later and the excitement is gone that overwhelming desire to spend every waking minute has given way to a passive disinterest. That is because nature is telling you its time to move on, your job is done here.

Children help, because you get new experiences and new opportunities for excitement. You get a chance to experience the excitement of discovery through the eyes of your offspring. This helps restore some of the interest in life but eventually they grow up and those discoveries come less and less often.

Let's face it we all change as we grow older and what we valued when we were twenty is different than what we value when we are fifty. That means the qualities that attracted you to your mate wouldn't necessarily do that now, so the mate that you choose in your twenties wouldn't necessarily be the same mate you choose in your fifties. This is why we become disenchanted with each other. our expectations of each other change and they are necessarily consistent with the changes that your partner goes through as they age. 

So yes, we expect to much and we put up with to much. it is the comprise we make as we try to evolve beyond creatures simply driven by natures encoding and try to embrace social pressure that deny who we are.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Katie,
This is a much bigger deal than most folks realize. 

To a degree it ties back to both the desire to please and the desire to avoid displeasing.







katiecrna said:


> The problem is I am down for fun stuff all the time. I can literally get into anything. I'm active and love to do out doorsy stuff. My husband has always been an indoor type of person. He doesn't have any hobbies except soccer. He likes going out to nice places to eat or drink or whatever but right now we can't afford that. For our honeymoon I wanted to go backpacking through Europe for a month. He was so not into this. He wanted to go to a resort and lay on the beach. No problem, I would love this too. I am always trying to get him to hike with me or go camping or just get into literally anything that doesn't cost a lot of money. And I think doing something outdoors is really good, sometimes people need fresh air you know. The problem is he doesn't want to do anything. But he complains about not really living. It's frustrating for me Bc he complains but doesn't change anything. It's like he's depressed, and he's comfortable being in that area.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> I've tried talking to him about it. Nothing changes. We talked about going to therapy for communication but right now we are too busy and it's not an option.


I forgot to comment on this. If your marriage is important to you, you will find time for therapy if you feel that is what may be needed to hopefully start fixing the issues. Make your marriage the priority, that way if in the end things don't work out you can at least know that you guys gave it your all.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"I don't know what the fundamental problem with marriage is and why it's so hard to be content with it."

The fundamental problem is there are too many people in the marriage. Anytime you get two people together there has to be compromise and decision making. It can be frustrating and a power struggle. It would be easier to be content in marriage if people took the time and initiative to learn if they are truly compatible and their values mesh. Best to find out before the ceremony than after.

There is a thread here where the wife wants to be the 'boss' and her husband is supposed to just shut up and 'yes, dear' her. That is a recipe for a complete disaster.

Your husband sounds as though he might be a bit depressed. He's not happy with his life but lacks the motivation to do anything about it. He must be real fun to live with.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I'm trying to get him to identify the type of person he wants to become and the life he wants to live. He doesn't know. Then I said ok... Start by figuring out what you know you don't want your life to be like.

He wasn't raised to be his own person. He doesn't know what he wants in life. He just wants everyone to be happy, me and his family. But it's obvious he's not content. He told me before, that I won't ever understand it but he needs to move back home (a small suburb where we are both from and our family is still at) and even though he knows he won't be happy, and he knows he will die inside a little, it's just something that he HAS to do.( it's because he has a tremendous amount of guilt for leaving home Bc his parents manipulate the sh*t out of him and have put this in his head since he was born that he has to live close to family. Plus is very obvious his parents are miserable together, and they are waiting for us to move home and have kids so they can look forward to something and be happy.) of course I've told him a million times that their happiness is not his responsibility but the damage they caused is already there and he just tells me... It's just something i have to do. 

It's hard because he is young (30), healthy, super good looking, and he is almost a surgeon and he can make close to a million dollars a year. Yet... Here we are. He can live any life be wants. But he tells me it's so hard to figure out what life be wants to live. It's actually a really sad and f*cked situation. I keep telling him our life is not predetermined. We can create a life that we want. But he doesn't know what he wants.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

You're not having kids with him anytime soon, are you? What will he do when his parents die? Who will he live his life for then? I'm sorry that you're stuck with a husband who behaves like a child. It's a miracle that he made it through med school.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> .( it's because he has a tremendous amount of guilt for leaving home Bc his parents manipulate the sh*t out of him and have put this in his head since he was born that he has to live close to family. Plus is very obvious his parents are miserable together, and they are waiting for us to move home and have kids so they can look forward to something and be happy.)


Yikes, that sounds eerily like my in laws after my W moved away to where we live now. Probably not as bad as your In Laws but they used to take constant digs at my W for moving away (even though it was for the best). My W has accepted that this is the time for US to do what is best for OUR family (which is exactly what we are doing now), so the digs from her parents don't bother her much anymore.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

And the thing is, I really love him. And he is the smartest person I've ever met in my life, and he has potential to do amazing things. And even if our marriage fails and we get divorced, if I find out he is living back in our small town, it will kill me and make me so sad because he has so much potential he can do amazing things.

We have 2 years till he is officially done. 2 years to make this important decision. So I am trying to stir this ship, I'm trying to get him to see the light and realize he can live any life he wants. And the thing is... I'm down for whatever. I can live back home or I can live in a huge city it doesn't matter. I love work and I can get a job anywhere. I also have a million hobbies that I can get into. But what I can't do, is live with a unhappy, depressed husband who complains and does nothing about it. He already told me that he knows he will regret it if he moved back home. The worst thing is a man who lives in regret, or what could have been. It's literally a tragedy. 

So right now it's tricky on my part Bc I am trying to get him to see the light. But If this ship is going down, I don't want to go down with it.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> My husband is going through this crisis as well but with life. He worked so hard to become a surgeon. He is now almost done. And he was telling me how he feels... Restless and not content. He was like is this what life is all about? We're going to then have kids and this is going be it? He was telling me how he didn't feel like he has lived yet (he's 30). He feels like he "wasted" his youth becoming a doctor. He seems depressed and hopeless. And I keep telling him that life can be however he wants it to be. We can live an exciting fun life but he's just not seeing it. He's like realistically we're going to have kids move to the suburbs I'm going to work everyday, and be tired and stressed out in the weekends...


Does he want a family? His thoughts about the future with children are probably pretty close to reality. I think one thing he is forgetting here is how much he will love those children, as long as a family is what he wants.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

AVR1962 said:


> Does he want a family? His thoughts about the future with children are probably pretty close to reality. I think one thing he is forgetting here is how much he will love those children, as long as a family is what he wants.




The plan all along was to have kids, 2-3. Now that he is living in a big city... He sees an alternative lifestyle that appeals to him. But it doesn't appeal to him so much that he would be willing to upset his parents and live this out. He says he wants kids. 

He is stuck between 2 worlds, having kids and living in our hometown suburbs and living in a sky rise in NYC with 1-2 kids. We keep going back and forth between these two things, but at the end of the day he says he wants to end up in our hometown Bc of the guilt and the need to please his family. 

He doesn't seem excited about life and that's what makes me sad. He can live any life he wants and he's still so young. His father is just like this. We always use to joke about this, his dad is 50 going on 80. Totally lost his ambitious and love of life. I see my husband being just like this but he says he's not like that at all. Then follows up with... If I turn into my dad I turn into my dad what are ya going to do. The problem with him is that he doesn't like take control of his life and make things happen, he's letting it go by as if he doesn't have a choice. Then he complains that he feels like he hasn't lived. It's frustrating Bc he doesn't seem to have the will or desire to change his situation. I asked him about anti depressants and he said absolutely not.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> The plan all along was to have kids, 2-3. Now that he is living in a big city... He sees an alternative lifestyle that appeals to him. But it doesn't appeal to him so much that he would be willing to upset his parents and live this out. He says he wants kids.
> 
> He is stuck between 2 worlds, having kids and living in our hometown suburbs and living in a sky rise in NYC with 1-2 kids. We keep going back and forth between these two things, but at the end of the day he says he wants to end up in our hometown Bc of the guilt and the need to please his family.
> 
> He doesn't seem excited about life and that's what makes me sad. He can live any life he wants and he's still so young. His father is just like this. We always use to joke about this, his dad is 50 going on 80. Totally lost his ambitious and love of life. I see my husband being just like this but he says he's not like that at all. Then follows up with... If I turn into my dad I turn into my dad what are ya going to do. The problem with him is that he doesn't like take control of his life and make things happen, he's letting it go by as if he doesn't have a choice. Then he complains that he feels like he hasn't lived. It's frustrating Bc he doesn't seem to have the will or desire to change his situation. I asked him about anti depressants and he said absolutely not.


TBH, I wouldn't be excited to raise kids in NYC. My sis just finally moved out (3 kids) from NYC to the suburbs and it was the best choice for them.

Sounds like your H is his own worst enemy right now, getting him to speak with a counselor is probably your best option since it doesn't sound like he is receptive to your ideas.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Katie,
So let me recap what you've told us. You've married a 'paper tiger'.

On 'paper', you won the triple crown by marrying this guy as he is:
- Kind/stable
- Super handsome
- A steady one percenter (you will never have to worry about money)

But he isn't adventurous or independent or playful or 'fun'. 

He isn't inherently 'fun' to be around. Even worse he is resistant to doing the stuff that you suggest.





katiecrna said:


> I'm trying to get him to identify the type of person he wants to become and the life he wants to live. He doesn't know. Then I said ok... Start by figuring out what you know you don't want your life to be like.
> 
> He wasn't raised to be his own person. He doesn't know what he wants in life. He just wants everyone to be happy, me and his family. But it's obvious he's not content. He told me before, that I won't ever understand it but he needs to move back home (a small suburb where we are both from and our family is still at) and even though he knows he won't be happy, and he knows he will die inside a little, it's just something that he HAS to do.( it's because he has a tremendous amount of guilt for leaving home Bc his parents manipulate the sh*t out of him and have put this in his head since he was born that he has to live close to family. Plus is very obvious his parents are miserable together, and they are waiting for us to move home and have kids so they can look forward to something and be happy.) of course I've told him a million times that their happiness is not his responsibility but the damage they caused is already there and he just tells me... It's just something i have to do.
> 
> It's hard because he is young (30), healthy, super good looking, and he is almost a surgeon and he can make close to a million dollars a year. Yet... Here we are. He can live any life be wants. But he tells me it's so hard to figure out what life be wants to live. It's actually a really sad and f*cked situation. I keep telling him our life is not predetermined. We can create a life that we want. But he doesn't know what he wants.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

MEM11363 said:


> Katie,
> 
> So let me recap what you've told us. You've married a 'paper tiger'.
> 
> ...




He was fun. He use to be fun and carefree and silly. He was never adventurous that's for sure, but he enjoyed life. This residency has beaten him down and he is very depressed now. I get what your saying though. Maybe I'm expected him to be something he isn't. But I don't want him to be depressed, and feeling hopeless.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

He does sound depressed, though maybe he is burned out, too. Becoming a surgeon is a long, hard road and he's still not at the end of that tunnel. He also feels a strong sense of responsibility toward his parents...did they sacrifice a lot to put him through med school? That could be why he feels the need to live his life near them.

Did he always want to be a doctor and surgeon? Like, is this his passion? Or did he think it was a good career and chose it for practical purposes? Maybe the medical world hasn't lived up to his expectations, or maybe he's just so burned out he's disillusioned right now and that could potentially change. Or maybe not and maybe he needs to reconsider what kind of career he really wants.

When I was 30, I had a little bit of that "mid-life" crisis feeling of: is this all there is? Is this what my life will be from now on? I chose to shake things up and move across the country to a city that had captured my imagination during business trips and visits to friends. But I was single then and was in a position where I could make big changes for myself to get excited about my future again. 

It may be time for a re-evaluation of your joint goals. But I think he might need a long vacation resting on the beach first.



> *But what I can't do, is live with a unhappy, depressed husband* who complains and does nothing about it. He already told me that he knows he will regret it if he moved back home. The worst thing is a man who lives in regret, or what could have been. It's literally a tragedy.


This is important for him to know. Getting help for his depression, whether it's Zoloft or a job change, is paramount.

Is there any way to help make it "ok" for him to live elsewhere? For example, if you were to move somewhere both of you really liked, could he talk them into moving closer to where you (and the future grand-babies) are?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

That's very helpful info.

It is very important to gauge how much of this is simply fatigue. Versus how much is - he maybe doesn't love medicine. 

If it is solely fatigue - that is ok. If instead he is going this way due to parental pressure or the lack of knowing 'what else' he might do.




katiecrna said:


> He was fun. He use to be fun and carefree and silly. He was never adventurous that's for sure, but he enjoyed life. This residency has beaten him down and he is very depressed now. I get what your saying though. Maybe I'm expected him to be something he isn't. But I don't want him to be depressed, and feeling hopeless.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

No,medicine is not his passion. But he says he loves what he does. He doesn't really have any passion. He's a simple guy, he likes cars and soccer. Making a lot of money was always important to him. His parents did no sacrifice a lot. But they act like they did. I think that it was well known that they did not want him to leave them. They want him to live in the same town as them and have Sunday dinners and see the grandchildren and blah blah blah. It's very obvious that they are bored and don't enjoy each other so they really depend on her kids and grandkids to make her happy. My husband knows this is true too. So he knows if he doesn't move back home that they will be miserable. At least he thinks they will.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The - hometown thing - seems like a big issue. But it isn't. 

The real issue is the high contrast between how he responds to their requests vs yours.

That must be painful. 

Only real question at this point, is not answerable. Is his current behaviors primarily an artifact of exhaustion? Or is it the 'new normal'?






katiecrna said:


> No,medicine is not his passion. But he says he loves what he does. He doesn't really have any passion. He's a simple guy, he likes cars and soccer. Making a lot of money was always important to him. His parents did no sacrifice a lot. But they act like they did. I think that it was well known that they did not want him to leave them. They want him to live in the same town as them and have Sunday dinners and see the grandchildren and blah blah blah. It's very obvious that they are bored and don't enjoy each other so they really depend on her kids and grandkids to make her happy. My husband knows this is true too. So he knows if he doesn't move back home that they will be miserable. At least he thinks they will.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

MEM11363 said:


> Only real question at this point, is not answerable. Is his current behaviors primarily an artifact of exhaustion? Or is it the 'new normal'?



I agree. But what I don't understand is why he is ok with this being the new normal. When I ask he says... "What are you going to do? That's life."


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> I agree. But what I don't understand is why he is ok with this being the new normal. When I ask he says... "What are you going to do? That's life."


That doesn't mean he's ok with it. It means he doesn't see a way out of it, doesn't see a way to change it. 

For example, he wants to be a surgeon. So, if his exhaustion and depression is mostly stemming from his residency program, he doesn't see how to make things different. So he has to accept that's how it's going to be until he's finished the program.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Katie,
When will he complete this education process - including his surgical residency?

Did his change in behavior closely correlated to his new schedule / fatigue level?

Is his blood sugar ok? Fatigue can destabilize blood sugar - which in turn can destabilize your moods.




katiecrna said:


> I agree. But what I don't understand is why he is ok with this being the new normal. When I ask he says... "What are you going to do? That's life."


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I've tried talking to him about it. Nothing changes. We talked about going to therapy for communication but right now we are too busy and it's not an option.


There is irony in this...


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

MEM11363 said:


> Katie,
> 
> When will he complete this education process - including his surgical residency?
> 
> ...




He has 2 years left. His behavior slowly changed over the course of the residency. We also were having a tough time in the marriage and there was a lot of fighting and we were on the brink of a divorce. He actually asked me for a divorce. Then after we talked, he decided he wanted to work on the marriage. Now here we are... IMO we haven't worked on anything. He is very resistance to therapy and marriage books. He doesn't want to deal with issues he just wants to go on and pretend nothing happened. 

He recently got his blood sugar checked. It was fine.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> There is irony in this...




Let me change this answer... We both live busy lives but we are not TOO busy for therapy. The issue is he doesn't want do therapy. He can't stand conflict and dealing with issues. This causes so much stress on him that he would rather avoid it at all costs. He figures he doesn't have a lot of free time and the last thing he wants to do is spend time dealing with conflict that stresses him out so much, he is already stressed out as it is and has high blood pressure because of it.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> We both live busy lives but we are not TOO busy for therapy.


:smile2:



katiecrna said:


> The issue is he doesn't want do therapy.


:frown2:



katiecrna said:


> He can't stand conflict and dealing with issues. This causes so much stress on him that he would rather avoid it at all costs. He figures he doesn't have a lot of free time and the last thing he wants to do is spend time dealing with conflict that stresses him out so much, he is already stressed out as it is and has high blood pressure because of it.


Does not sound as if one will be healthy enough to help people be healthy...

I truly do not know if this is his direct calling in medicine (surgeon), only he would and because you are close to him, you, but you did say he wasn't passionate but loves what he does (isn't that a level of passion?), perhaps this is defining of the need to be a surgeon? I cannot image the stress his school must be... maybe these thoughts cause some self-doubt in his calling and depression easily comes from such.

Some people are more in love with being something, than being someone... perhaps the stress is a sign that he may not be on the right path. His is quite talented in medicine to have made it this far, perhaps something in medicine that would drive a passion is what's needed?

We need more happy doctors...


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