# Trial Separation I think?



## ClaytonRE49 (Dec 14, 2020)

Thought I come here for some advice support or whatever you folks can offer. I am currently in a trial separation that I have had just about enough of. It has been 3 months which was the initial check in point. My wife says she is still unable to reconcile and to be honest she hasn’t really made any progress in that direction. 

Background: I have been married to my wife for 8 years and we have 2 children a 6 and 4 year old. 10 months ago my wife stated she was unhappy and we decided to go to counseling. She said she felt like she was doing all of the work with house and kids and I was “isolating myself” from her and family. I immediately apologize for making her feel that way and set out to do more to help out with kids and house. It was hard because I thought I was doing a lot but I decided to just ramp it up and figured she was just overwhelmed as I get from time to time. We both work full time and I have been taking college classes. As far as the isolation she explained that I never want to do anything. Could not get specifics but there are times where she does stuff with kids and I’m not there so I figured that was it. We had been going out dating at least once a month after not being able to due to kids being young and not having trusted childcare(moved to a new city away from family) So I again set out to do more be more present. I agreed to counseling and started d reflecting on what may have caused these feelings. We have had maybe 10 “fights/arguments/disagreements“ in our 8 years of marriage 10 years together 13 years knowing each other. We get along great agree on parenting etc. I realize that I took my eye off the ball and should of made more of an effort after we had kids. So I can see how she feels. It took me a while early on because I just didn’t see it her way. I understand her perception is her reality and that it was based on me just not doing enough. There has never been any infidelity or drugs or abuse. We have had issues communicating at times. Niehter of us are really open with our feelings. This was part of the issue too as she said she had been been in happy with those things for a while but didn’t say anything. 
Then came “I need space” just as we started counseling. We decided to you use the free counseling from my employer. Bad idea as the counselor we got after only 2 meetings, 1 with both of us said we should do a trial separation. I believe the seed was planted and has only ground since. My wife was open to it, I was not. This was confusing to me as I hadn’t even slept on the couch. I also knew we couldn’t afford it plus I didn’t want to do it to our young children. The counselor then suggested In home trial separation. This was right at the start of COVID and everything shutting down. At this point my wife could no longer say I love you, she did not want any affection or intimacy. In her words she had checked out.

We tried the in home separation and it was hard. We did it for about 2 months and slowly began to spend time together. As COVID got worse we hunkered down and began to make progress, only slow progress minimal progress as she would state that she felt closed off. 

I continued to show up be present, I cleaned up more helped out with kids took over shopping and many other family tasks. Despite saying that she had seen changes and was happy with changes my wife still states she can’t open up and get close again. I decided to continue work make sure we did more stuff as family all throughout summer. We looked for stuff we could do safely with Covid, hiking, beach, camping and even took a family vacation to a family resort. Still my wife says she is still closed off and she needs to understand her feelings before she can open up. She is struggling to find romantic feelings. We both were seeing individual counselors as well as a new couples counselor. One thing I should mention is my wife has also been dealing with a ill parent(cancer) the past few years and through this entire time their condition has worsened(now terminally ill). I know this had been weighing on her.

She has sinced asked for the trial separation as she stated the pressure of it all including trying to fix marriage had been too much. I again agreed in order to give her a break. We now have an additional place which we rotate. We decided this was the best option for our young kids. The goal was to come back and work on things. We still pretty much see each other each day because of parenting duties and still get do stuff as a family

So now here we are 3 months separated and it isn’t clear if my wife even wants to work on things she just keeps saying she needs to understand her feelings in order to open up and find romantic feelings in order to reconnect end separation. After a break from couples counseling and her switching individual counseling she has agreed to try couples counseling again.

I know it’s a lot. A long story and it’s been a long hard journey for us. She is hurting I can see it Dealing with her parents illness. I am struggling with losing my wife. The kids are shielded as much as we can but they are struggling wanting both mom and dad in the house together. I’m just hoping to get out of this place. 

Any thoughts or anyone going through something similar would be helpful.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Read this thread. Spend tonight reading. Allow other folks to come to your thread and give you some advice, but do invest time in reading about this man's story and how he turned his marriage around.,









She said "w/a man I don't love"


I confess, I read my wife's diary. I wished I hadn't. Our 15th anniversary was May 16th; for over a month now I have made a concerted effort to do my part in making our marriage better. On Monday, June 3rd I read a portion of her diary that stated "w/a man I don't love." I'm devastated! What, if...




www.talkaboutmarriage.com


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

A lot of things aren’t adding up here. 

If she feels she is doing too much household chores and that you aren’t involved enough with the kids and family - then does moving into her own place where she will be doing a full 100% of the housework make sense??

Same with kids and family. If you aren’t spending enough time and activities with them, then does splitting them up between two different households make sense?

I also find it odd that the counselor is recommending separation. Generally speaking MCs try to keep the family together unless there is violence or unrelenting conflict and hostility.

If both parties want to remain together, MCs will rarely recommend separation.

Separations are generally a precursor and preparation for actual divorce.

Once people start living on their own, they often start to enjoy it and adapt to it and start getting used to being on their own and are often LESS likely to want to reconcile.

And then there is the specter of dating and hooking up with other people.

From your wife’s demeanor and some of the catch phrases she has used and the fact that she keeps bidding for “more time.”

I can say with almost 98.952% certainty that there is another man involved. 

I think the seeds of that relationship were planted shortly before she began disengaging and saying ILYBNILWY and the reason she is bidding for more time is she is trying to secure a commitment from him before she makes the final break with you.

Assuming you are not an alcoholic/drug addict, a wife beater or a cheater yourself, I can almost guarantee there is another man (or woman. I’ve seen that happen too)

Mothers of young children simply do not leave the fathers for poor housekeeping and not taking the kids to Disneyland every weekend.

If you aren’t a drunk, or abusive or a cheater yourself, then I can pretty much guarantee there is someone else rubbing her rhubarb.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> A lot of things aren’t adding up here.
> 
> If she feels she is doing too much household chores and that you aren’t involved enough with the kids and family - then does moving into her own place where she will be doing a full 100% of the housework make sense??
> 
> ...


I too thought that the therapist was an idiot for the same reasons you pointed out.

I think that the ground is set for another man to be in the picture, but this could also be a story about a Walkaway Wife who is just detaching from her husband, so separation helps in that regard because she simply doesn't like interacting with her husband.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lance Mannion said:


> I too thought that the therapist was an idiot for the same reasons you pointed out.
> 
> I think that the ground is set for another man to be in the picture, but this could also be a story about a Walkaway Wife who is just detaching from her husband, so separation helps in that regard because she simply doesn't like interacting with her husband.


WAW’s children are typically in their upper teens - adults, not 4 and 6. 

Unless she is one of those outlier misfit mothers that should have had her tubes tied at birth, women with 4 and 6 year olds will typically only leave if the H is abusive, addicted or a recalcitrant cheater himself - or if she thinks she has a Bigger Better Deal in the works.

If all women left their husbands because they didn’t think he was helping with the house and kids enough, the divorce rate would be a solid 100% after the first child. 

The words and the actions just simply aren’t adding up here. 

Women don’t leave the fathers of 4/6 year olds and MCs don’t recommend separations for inadequate housekeeping. 

There’s more to this story that either the OP isn’t telling us or that he himself is unaware of.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Listen you and your wife became disconnected. Women do not frequently reconnect. Usually it is things like lack of participating in the family and dates and resentment over chores and lack of helping with kids that leads to the disconnect for women but doing those things won't fix the emotion of disconnection.

You need to rebuild the relationship and most women aren't interested in rebuilding after they disconnect.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> WAW’s children are typically in their upper teens - adults, not 4 and 6.
> 
> Unless she is one of those outlier misfit mothers that should have had her tubes tied at birth, women with 4 and 6 year olds will typically only leave if the H is abusive, addicted or a recalcitrant cheater himself - or if she thinks she has a Bigger Better Deal in the works.
> 
> ...


The age of her children is not a key factor in relation to her process of detachment. The actual walkaway doesn't happen when detachment is complete, she can be detached and still present.

I'm not trying to discount the Other Man scenario, not at all, I just don't think that this situation is a 98.952% certainty, I'd probably put it at 80% Other Man.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lance Mannion said:


> The age of her children is not a key factor in relation to her process of detachment. The actual walkaway doesn't happen when detachment is complete, she can be detached and still present.


Age of children may not be a factor in the detachment/emotional disconnect, but absolutely IS a factor in actual physical separation. 

If a woman is physically separating from the father of her 4/6 year old children , she is either getting away from something real bad... or striving towards something she believes will be significantly better. 

This gal is actively resisting his efforts to reunite after months of separation.

That is for a reason. That reason is not because he doesn’t empty the dishwasher quick enough.


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## ClaytonRE49 (Dec 14, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> Listen you and your wife became disconnected. Women do not frequently reconnect. Usually it is things like lack of participating in the family and dates and resentment over chores and lack of helping with kids that leads to the disconnect for women but doing those things won't fix the emotion of disconnection.
> 
> You need to rebuild the relationship and most women aren't interested in rebuilding after they disconnect.


Thanks for the reply. Yes my wife has said that she disconnected from me. She is caught in the “I have to feel a certain way” in order to reconnect. I do not think the feelings will return until we work on reconnecting. She just doesn’t see it that way. She wants feelings to come back then and only then can she open up for reconnection. I have been saying this to her for a while. She just can’t seem to grasp it or simply doesn’t want to.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Age of children may not be a factor in the detachment/emotional disconnect, but absolutely IS a factor in actual physical separation.
> 
> If a woman is physically separating from the father of her 4/6 year old children , she is either getting away from something real bad... or striving towards something she believes will be significantly better.
> 
> ...


What was she SAYING? She was saying that he didn't do enough around the house. He took her at her word and he stepped up. Did that bring her around? Nope.

Why believe her words? We shouldn't. This also means that she likely wasn't completely stressed out by family duty and didn't also rely on her husband in order to make a go of it, lots of single mothers manage adequately without a man in the house. Ultimately she is not dependent on his helping in the house in order to have a functional household for the children. This means that she can jettison her husband and still have an adequately functional household for the children.

So I'm not seeing why her getting away from something has to be restricted to gross dysfunction, his presence could just annoy the hell out of her, make her tense up, be constantly on guard about not engaging, that could be exhausting.

Your conclusion about the dishwasher, I agree, and I agree because I don't actually believe her words, that the problem was his not helping around the house. She lost attraction to him.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

ClaytonRE49 said:


> Thanks for the reply. Yes my wife has said that she disconnected from me. She is caught in the “I have to feel a certain way” in order to reconnect. I do not think the feelings will return until we work on reconnecting. She just doesn’t see it that way. She wants feelings to come back then and only then can she open up for reconnection. I have been saying this to her for a while. She just can’t seem to grasp it or simply doesn’t want to.


Or you can't grasp her view. You're trying to bend her into seeing things your way. That's not working too well, so maybe you just need to keep doing it more or doing it louder? That won't work. Take her at her word. She needs to feel a certain way, so then make her feel that way. How did you woo her in the first place? By washing her dishes and doing her laundry? Nope.


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## ClaytonRE49 (Dec 14, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Age of children may not be a factor in the detachment/emotional disconnect, but absolutely IS a factor in actual physical separation.
> 
> If a woman is physically separating from the father of her 4/6 year old children , she is either getting away from something real bad... or striving towards something she believes will be significantly better.
> 
> ...


Thanks for reply. There is definitely no one physically in the picture. I doubt if there is an emotional affair happening. I have shared all that I know. No abuse no drugs, or alcohol, I work full time. I’m confused for sure been down the some one else road. There isn’t anyone maybe she is thinking she will find someone else but again that’s not what she’s telling me. She is sticking with the she felt overwhelmed because I wasn’t doing enough and I isolated myself by not spending enough time with family. To me it’s different reality I could’ve def done more and now I am. She is stuck in the I don’t have these feelings that I should have so I can’t move forward. The new counselor we have seems to be pinning her down on the feelings she is trying to understand so there is progress there.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

ClaytonRE49 said:


> There isn’t anyone maybe she is thinking she will find someone else but again *that’s not what she’s telling me*.


That's not how you gather information in these matters. What you KNOW has to be determined by you independently of what your wife tells you about her life.


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## ClaytonRE49 (Dec 14, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> Or you can't grasp her view. You're trying to bend her into seeing things her way. That's not working too well, so maybe you just need to keep doing it more or doing it louder? That won't work. Take her at her word. She needs to feel a certain way, so then make her feel that way. How did you woo her in the first place? By washing her dishes and doing her laundry? Nope.


Yeah I have stopped that approach. I can’t do it much louder than I am. I’m pretty much in a wait and see. We are in counseling see how it goes. I have two young kids and I still love my wife. So I just thought I’d see what other folks thought about the situation. I have thought a lot about wooing and have tried but she is not in condition to be wooed. she is not open enough to even feel a certain way. We still hangout, laugh, have dinner together. She just isn’t open to reconnecting. Hence separation supposedly trial.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

ClaytonRE49 said:


> Yeah I have stopped that approach. I can’t do it much louder than I am. *I’m pretty much in a wait and see.* We are in counseling see how it goes. I have two young kids and I still love my wife. So I just thought I’d see what other folks thought about the situation. I have thought a lot about wooing and have tried but she is not in condition to be wooed. she is not open enough to even feel a certain way. We still hangout, laugh, have dinner together. She just isn’t open to reconnecting. Hence separation supposedly trial.


To sit and wait and see is a passive approach. That's not going to help you get her back and it puts the entire onus on her, meaning your fate and the fate of your children's lives rests on her re-engaging with you. Screw that noise. If I was in your place, I'd want to sweeten the odds by doing what I could do woo her back. You need to be proactive.

So, as you can see Oldshirt and I are dissecting your life and debating, he thinks that she has shifted her emotions to another man, I suspect that she's mostly just detached from you. Either way, you need to be proactive, you need to INDEPENDENTLY understand if there are other men at work or outside of her work who she engages with. Simultaneously, you need to do something to capture her interest in you as a man, not as a househusband, not as a father to your children, she's a woman, you're a man, you once got her attention and her devotion towards you grew to the point that she wanted to marry you, you need to tap into that form of energy again, and frankly, that's exactly what another man is going to do, he's not going to woo your wife's attention by regaling her with stories of how he does the dishes and laundry at his house, he's going to snag her and reel her in with flattery, attention, making her feel desired and beautiful, paying attention to her problems, etc.

I go back to my first post - read that thread. The husband read his wife's diary, found out she fell out of love with him and was planning on leaving him after she got her career and finances in order. He followed the advice in the thread, read the recommended books, implemented a plan of action and slowly his wife began to show interest in him again and the plan to leave him was, much later, abandoned and she was very thankful for how he changed himself and won back her love and devotion. My advice to you is to read the books that were recommended in that thread.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You have a couple of problems.

First, you really have no idea if there's another man in the picture or not. You think you know...but you really don't. I'm pretty suspicious.

Second, situations like this are delicate. assuming there is not another man in the picture, you even subtly trying to get her to come back to the marriage is like pushing a rope. 

Frankly, if I were in this situation, the first thing I would do is thoroughly investigate. Do you still share cell phone accounts? Take a close look at that to see if there are any calls or texts to one number. Do what limited sleuthing you can to rule out an affair.

Once you do that, I would stop pushing and start pulling. Distance yourself. Tell her it's clear counseling isn't really effective, so it's probably time to stop. Tell her that limbo isn't really working for you, so you're going to have to focus on making a decision that's best for you, and you need time to yourself to figure that out. Have the intestinal fortitude to enforce boundaries.

This may ultimately end your marriage. However, if it does, it means she was done anyway. All you are doing is accelerating the process. And while it may not be the outcome you want, It will ultimately help you get to the truth.


Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> Listen you and your wife became disconnected. Women do not frequently reconnect. most women aren't interested in rebuilding after they disconnect.


Don't take advice from someone who thinks 1/2 of the entire population acts exactly the same.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

ClaytonRE49 said:


> I have thought a lot about wooing and have tried but she is not in condition to be wooed. she is not open enough to even feel a certain way. We still hangout, laugh, have dinner together. She just isn’t open to reconnecting. Hence separation supposedly trial.


There are two aspects in play to the wooing game. The first begins with WHO YOU ARE, this piques the woman's attention and attraction. The second is how you engage the woman, this reels her in. If there is failure or lack of attraction towards you, then all of the wooing effort will be for naught. Single guys who fail on the first criterion are stuck in the Friend Zone. 

No offense, this is brutal for a husband to read, but you've been put into the Friend Zone. One benefit you have is that you have actual history of attracting this woman, so much so that you beat out other guys and won her as your wife. What you did once, you can, probably, do again. Marriage and fatherhood domestics men, this dries up their women's desire for them.

As you read that thread, don't give up on it, these life-stories are not like novels and case studies, they weave and bob, go down false trails, but eventually a narrative emerges from the continued discussion and the OP adding more information. Of the books that were most helpful to him in shaping his plan, two were key "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and "Married Man Sex Life Primer." The advice in those books is what FarsideJunkie is alluding to, you pulling away. That's what the OP in that thread did. He pulled away, his wife wondered why and followed him, in other words, he got her attention. Invest the time and finish that thread. Think about how that man's story played out. 

Don't forget to independently gather information on your wife's life at work and outside of work. Independently!


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

If we believe your story, then I don't see how any woman interested in continuing the marriage would not recognize that effort and want to work toward a resolution....Just seems like she wants out, another guy, whatever...who knows???

I agree with a previous poster...If it was just the chores or helping with the kids, the divorce rate would probably be close to 100%...

Perhaps the fact that she was really anxious and accepting of the "trial separation" could mean that there is someone else and she needed the "free pass" to explore that....with the possibility that if it doesn't work out then she would have a chance to get back in? Again, I really don't know for sure..


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ClaytonRE49 said:


> There is definitely no one physically in the picture. I doubt if there is an emotional affair happening.
> 
> There isn’t anyone maybe she is thinking she will find someone else but again that’s not what she’s telling me.


Ok let’s wake up and take the blinders off. 

Do you really think you are going to ask her if she’s getting with someone else and she is just going to tell you?????

Dude, wake up!!

YOU have to look into this on your own without her knowledge or consent. 

Hack her phone, her online accounts and social media. Put a god tracker and voice activated recorder in her car. 

Are you bird-nesting and switching back and forth in the other house so the kids stay in the main house? Perfect, hide a nanny cam in the bedroom and living room and see what’s really going on when she’s there by herself. 

If you don’t have the giblets to do this or you are too afraid of what you’ll find firsthand yourself, hire a PI. You will have your answer in a matter of days, maybe even a matter of hours. 

Don’t tip your hand, all that will do is drive her deeper underground and cover her tracks better.

Find out for yourself. Don’t just ask her, she will simply say no and since that is what you want to believe, you will take her at her word. The problem with that is cheaters lie.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Ok let’s wake up and take the blinders off.
> 
> Do you really think you are going to ask her if she’s getting with someone else and she is just going to tell you?????
> 
> ...


OP, listen to this advice, this is gold. You are in the fight of your life, you're fighting for your children's future too. This is no time for niceties, you need CIA-quality intel, military-grade intel, to figure out the lay of the battlefield and to understand exactly what kind of battle you are engaging yourself in here.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ClaytonRE49 said:


> I’m pretty much in a wait and see. We are in counseling see how it goes. I have two young kids and I still love my wife.


I disagree with this approach wholeheartedly.

What you are watching right now is her feathering her nest and setting up her post-divorce life and preparing to move on while you are home patiently waiting for her to get this magical feeling of wanting to be married to you again.

And what you will be watching in the future is her moving on with another man(s) and having other men integrating with your children. 

That is what the passive, “wait and see” approach will produce. 

Even I admit that there is over a 1% chance that there is not another man at this time. 

But even if there is not another man right now, how long do you think that will last?

Do you really think she left you because you didn’t use the right fabric softener when you did laundry so she could live out the rest of her life as a nun???

C’mon man, wake up and smell the coffee here. 

You write well with reasonably proper grammar, punctuation and spelling. That means you are somewhat educated and not dumb.

But you are being naive and gullible and are intentionally keeping your head in the sand and pretending to see only what you want to see. 

Take off the blinders and open your eyes. 

Then take action. Make things happen.
Be proactive and take the bull by the horns.

If you want to remain married and live as husband and wife in the same household, then March your butt right up to her and tell her your want your marriage and family intact and for her to come home and put in full faith effort on her part and you will do the same.

If she says no, then hand her divorce papers and show her where to sign so that each of you can move on with your own lives.

Put her feet to the fire and decide today whether she’s all in or all out.

Don’t give her time to make house on her own. 

Don’t give her time to test drive other men and secure her next husband and step daddy to your kids while you stand by watching. 

In or out. This has been going on over half a year. She’s playing you and you are letting her.

This takes balls and only people that have balls and are willing to blow things up and make their walk away uncomfortable ever come out ok. The passive approach only gets you screwed.

Time to suit up and force the issue and make things happen.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I disagree with this approach wholeheartedly.
> 
> What you are watching right now is her feathering her nest and setting up her post-divorce life and preparing to move on while you are home patiently waiting for her to get this magical feeling of wanting to be married to you again.
> 
> ...


I'd hold off on the divorce move, keep that as your ace in the hole, instead I'd unilaterally end that separation and move myself back into the family home and declare that "I'm not prepared to be a half-time father and half-time husband. You (wife) can leave this house for 3 days per week, but I'm going to see my children every damn day whether you like it or not." Then start living your life independently of her. This may seem like some weird contradiction, but it's not, you're taking command, you're shaping the battlespace, you're pulling her into your frame. You come home, you go about your business in the home, you leave the home for some fun with friends, you do not ask her permission. You are a man, you have a mission, you have an interesting life, you have a plan, she will likely want to find out what your mission is, find out details of your life, find out your plan, IOW, you begin to intrigue her. Even if you is disinterested, you're still mentally preparing for life after her.

The divorce gambit is saved for later, when you want a powerful effect. Use it strategically, remember that just because you file for divorce doesn't mean you have to follow through to completion nor do you have to move at a timely pace, you can drag it out as long a you want and you can cancel it whenever you want. But if you file, do NOT bluff, if you crumble and beg her not to divorce, then you lose power and attraction. If you file, be prepared to follow through, at least for the immediate future, make it a very real process for her, you can always stop it if you both want to.

But before you do any of this, you need your intel on her life and her communications and if there are other men in her life. Don't make any moves until you know the shape of the battlespace. This birdnesting arrangement, as Oldshirt noted, is ideal for gathering intelligence. Your vars and keyloggers and nannycams all stay in place in your home and she is at ease when you are out of the house.

Understand that you're in the fight of your life, these measures are all justified because the cost to you of losing this battle is a.) seeing your kids only 50% of the time and b.) a very high likelihood that another man will be helping your wife raise your kids sometime in the future. That outcome should be turning your stomach. Man up and fight this fight.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I have to ask this question and be honest with your answer - how bad were you self-isolating and how bad were you neglecting household chores and kids etc? 

The reason I ask this is there are degrees to everything and degrees matter. 

One of my best friend’s wife literally locked herself in her bedroom for TWO YEARS and never came out when he was home.

She would take the kids to day and go work etc when he was at work, but if he was in the house, she would be in her bedroom with the door locked. 

He literally had not seen her for the two years prior to them having court-ordered mandatory MC when he finally filed for divorce. 

The MC did recommend divorce after about 2 sessions and declared them irreconcilable (gee do ya think?)

But get this, she was pissed he filed for divorce and wanted the judge to throw the book at him for trying to leave her. 

So, while I think this is fishy that she is leaving due to poor housekeeping and the counselor recommending separation.... it depends on the degree here. 

Were you locked away in a separate bedroom for a couple years? Did you have any contact with the kids at all?

Did you pay bills or fix any Leakey fawcettes or mow the lawn at all, or were you completely absent and uninvolved for years prior to her checking out?

If the answer is you were completely isolated and uninvolved at all for a prolonged period of time, then some of this may add up.

But if it was you not getting the corners vacuumed thoroughly enough, then things aren’t adding up right.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

ClaytonRE49 said:


> Thanks for reply. There is definitely no one physically in the picture. I doubt if there is an emotional affair happening. I have shared all that I know. No abuse no drugs, or alcohol, I work full time. I’m confused for sure been down the some one else road. There isn’t anyone maybe she is thinking she will find someone else but again that’s not what she’s telling me. She is sticking with the she felt overwhelmed because I wasn’t doing enough and I isolated myself by not spending enough time with family. To me it’s different reality I could’ve def done more and now I am. She is stuck in the I don’t have these feelings that I should have so I can’t move forward. The new counselor we have seems to be pinning her down on the feelings she is trying to understand so there is progress there.


Famous last words. You really don’t know. They will never tell you.
It would be smart to go online and check your phone bill. Look around a bit just to make sure.
Many get blind sided and never suspected.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Marriage counselors are not gods and many are pretty stupid. Beware!


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

I do not believe that this is just about reconnecting or you doing more work around the house. There is something else that caused this reaction from her. Either something that somebody said to her or she saw on TV or read somewhere that made her choose to question her life, whether she is really in love with you etc etc. The idiot counsellor (no wonder he was available from work for free - you get what you pay for, I guess) just made it worse.

What you need to do is to get her to open up about what she heard, read, saw that made her start feeling this way. You need to understand how this came to be else it is too out of the blue.


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## ClaytonRE49 (Dec 14, 2020)

Alright, I have been seeing the pull away advice do my own thing to for a while I have been hesitant to do that as her reasoning for the discourse was the fact that she felt I wasn’t around. Which is in my opinion exaggerated and based on her perception. It is looking like that is the approach I may go with because everything else is not really worked. I will need to read up more on this approach and put together a plan.

I definitely understand the thought that there is another guy many of you have. I have done the work on that, I investigate things for a living and there just isn’t. It would be easier To understand if that was the case.

I accept that I’m in the I love you but not in love with you zone, she has said she dosent have romantic feelings for me. Friend zone for sure. 
I need to change the dynamic. 
My wife actually pursued me at first. So I may need to tap into that.

there is one difficult thing in play which is her father being terminally ill. I think this may have precipitated this crisis. Just something else I’m navigating and trying to help her through.

let me put together a plan based on the book recommendations, bits of wisdom here and what I’m seeing here on the ground.

Thanks


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## ClaytonRE49 (Dec 14, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I have to ask this question and be honest with your answer - how bad were you self-isolating and how bad were you neglecting household chores and kids etc?
> 
> The reason I ask this is there are degrees to everything and degrees matter.
> 
> ...


Nah nothing that serious. She just said she felt overwhelmed. It’s something she has in her head. I work, I like watching sports on weekends so yes there were plenty of times instead of going to beach she and kids went without me. Nothing to the level of what you mentioned. I have been down the road of trying to understand this reality of hers. I have refuted, major trigger for her. She is entitled to it, all I can do is work to change her perceptions in future.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

“I need space”. Hmmm.........translation in my case as well as others is ....I need you out of the way so I can carry on with another man.

I was born in the morning but not this morning OP.
There is something highly likely going on that you are unaware of.

You need to go into detective mode and snoop all electronic communications. I would place a VAR in her car.

as I was advised on here after my FWW asked for a separation...eyes open mouth shut. You need to consider going into detective mode. NOW!


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Marc878 said:


> Marriage counselors are not gods and many are pretty stupid. Beware!


If you go the counseling route please get a male MC


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ClaytonRE49 said:


> Thanks for the reply. Yes my wife has said that she disconnected from me. She is caught in the “I have to feel a certain way” in order to reconnect. I do not think the feelings will return until we work on reconnecting. She just doesn’t see it that way. She wants feelings to come back then and only then can she open up for reconnection. I have been saying this to her for a while. She just can’t seem to grasp it or simply doesn’t want to.


Relying 100% on feelings will never work. Feelings lie. In marriage feelings will come and go, thats no reason to leave. 
I hope she is being honest with you and not just trying to let you down gently.


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## ClaytonRE49 (Dec 14, 2020)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> If you go the counseling route please get a male MC


Yes the 1st counselor was a woman(the one who was all about trial separation) we now have a male.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

you seem to be overwhelmed to gather proof your WW is cheating.
i'll bet my dollars to your doughnuts your WW is dong some OM.
this is why she moved out. to be free to test drive her OM. she has
not divorced you because the OM will not commit to her.

time to man up and hire a PI.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

oldtruck said:


> you seem to be overwhelmed to gather proof your WW is cheating.
> i'll bet my dollars to your doughnuts your WW is dong some OM.
> this is why she moved out. to be free to test drive her OM. she has
> not divorced you because the OM will not commit to her.
> ...


Damn! You prempted my next post. You are spot on. It is an EA at the least. My money is on a coworker.


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## ClaytonRE49 (Dec 14, 2020)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Damn! You prempted my next post. You are spot on. It is an EA at the least. My money is on a coworker.


Guys relax, I have been through it all. I have access to everything,phone email etc. it’s just not the case. Yet atleast. We have been barely able to leave the home in the past 10 months due to COVID(plus she works from home). I would be a lot easier if it was that easy to pinpoint.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I need space. I want a trial separation.
I love you but I’m not in love with you.

you’ve been told there’s likely another man involved. I would look further. Those are the words of a cheater that you have been told. Rewriting of marital history is a big red flag also.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ClaytonRE49 said:


> Thanks for the reply. Yes my wife has said that she disconnected from me. She is caught in the “I have to feel a certain way” in order to reconnect. I do not think the feelings will return until we work on reconnecting. She just doesn’t see it that way. She wants feelings to come back then and only then can she open up for reconnection. I have been saying this to her for a while. She just can’t seem to grasp it or simply doesn’t want to.


I'm not sure my reconnection and yours is the same. I'm talking about feelings not sex. I"m talking about having conversations. There are books with guided conversation that help you to get to know one another.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

ClaytonRE49 said:


> Guys relax, I have been through it all. I have access to everything,phone email etc. it’s just not the case. Yet atleast. We have been barely able to leave the home in the past 10 months due to COVID(plus she works from home). I would be a lot easier if it was that easy to pinpoint.


there’s been many a man that thought as you did until they found the truth.

regardless of the reason for her change in feelings about you, the result is the same. The smart money is on moving on.

it takes a long time to realize that it makes zero difference in one person’s feelings when the other has none. 
You can’t wish or hope her into loving you. You just need to move on.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ClaytonRE49 said:


> Guys relax, I have been through it all. I have access to everything,phone email etc. it’s just not the case. Yet atleast. We have been barely able to leave the home in the past 10 months due to COVID(plus she works from home). I would be a lot easier if it was that easy to pinpoint.


There doesn't have to be another man. It's good you checked. Her father being ill can absolutely effect feelings. It can make you reevaluate your life. And if you are trying to save the marriage pulling away isn't necessarily the route. Don't be needy or clingy but stepping up and being there is a way to show you care. Pressuring her during this time isn't wise.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Anytime you chase a woman she will freaking run faster and harder. I doubt she could be running any harder now. 
Realize that moving on is your best Chance of getting her back, as crazy as it sounds.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

So, let's say you are right that there is no other man in the picture.

Why do you want to fight for somebody who is unsure whether or not they want you?

Furthermore, if you actually manage to reel her back in, will you ever fully trust her to not do this again? 

Oftentimes in these scenarios, the person who is left behind is so busy fighting for the 'now' that they fail to consider what it will be like if they actually get what they want.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Let her go. Save yourself a lot of time/life and you’ll never get back.

Not to mention keeping yourself in limbo for an extended period of time and the heartbreak.


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## ClaytonRE49 (Dec 14, 2020)

Marc878 said:


> Let her go. Save yourself a lot of time/life and you’ll never get back.
> 
> Not to mention keeping yourself in limbo for an extended period of time and the heartbreak.


I hear you. I’m just not ready to do that. I still love her which I know would be something I could overcome, but the kids. I have to try to work through it for my children. The thought of not being able to raise them or someone else raising them is unbearable. They deserve a chance for a intact family/home.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

It might be that her father being ill is causing her to re-evaluate her life. However, it would be wise to be cautious and keep an eye on other matters while you try and get to the botttom of where all of this is really coming from.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

ClaytonRE49 said:


> I hear you. I’m just not ready to do that. I still love her which I know would be something I could overcome, but the kids. I have to try to work through it for my children. The thought of not being able to raise them or someone else raising them is unbearable. They deserve a chance for a intact family/home.


realize that people like me who have been through what you’re going through wanted the same for our kids. I realize you can’t turn off your feelings and still wish you could work it out. You will be FORCED to accept that your plans, your wishes, your hopes, and your feelings DO NOT MATTER, because you can’t make your wife stay, stay married, or prevent her from cutting your time with your kids at least in half.

You will save yourself untold pain by seeing an attorney and following their advice.

I know how you feel, but what you’re doing is going to greatly increase the time you are in severe pain. Good luck to you.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

What children deserve is happy parents who want to be together. They don’t deserve unhappy 
parents — or even one unhappy parent. They are quick to pick up on dysfunction in a family and it can affect their relationships as adults. You’ll have to work very hard for that not to happen if you stay with her.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ClaytonRE49 said:


> Guys relax, I have been through it all. I have access to everything,phone email etc. it’s just not the case. Yet atleast. We have been barely able to leave the home in the past 10 months due to COVID(plus she works from home). I would be a lot easier if it was that easy to pinpoint.


You are probably correct, but you need to understand that the advice you are getting about this being a possibility comes from members who have seen 99% of new posters in your situation end up having a cheating spouse - take a look at past Infidelity threads on here. NO ONE thinks "THEIR partner" could be cheating...but it ends up they ARE. 

The people bringing it up to you are simply trying to help you get ALL information about what is going on with your wife, so you have the best chance to overcome it and get what you want - your marriage back. 

I am sorry about her father - that is definitely life altering and can sometimes fundamentally change someone and what they want and what their goals are. 

Whatever way you decide to handle this, I hope it works out for you!!


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

ClaytonRE49 said:


> I hear you. I’m just not ready to do that. I still love her which I know would be something I could overcome, but the kids. I have to try to work through it for my children. The thought of not being able to raise them or someone else raising them is unbearable. They deserve a chance for a intact family/home.


Understood but you cant make her love you. It takes awhile for that to sink into some.
You deserve to be happy too.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

My advice to you is keep your eyes and ears open. Expect the unexpected in these situations. Do not do the “pick me dance”. That is a guaranteed to fail as she will see you as weak. Read up on the 180 and implement it. Distance yourself and show her you will be finer than froghair with out her.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

farsidejunky said:


> Why do you want to fight for somebody who is unsure whether or not they want you?


Because marriages/relatiionships are movies not snapshots in time. There is an ebb and flow to the intensity of feelings.

For those who take back WS, the above is the exact dynamic they are counting on, the WS has already given the "I'm not in love with you speech" and now fallen for the AP, but post-discovery and in reconciliation, they have to mourn the loss of their AP and then they begin to fall back in love with the BS.

Even absent an affair, the love can come back.

The trick, of course, is knowing whether love which is dead is actually dead or just mostly dead. For the OP, is his wife lost to him forever or not?


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

ClaytonRE49 said:


> I hear you. I’m just not ready to do that. I still love her which I know would be something I could overcome, but the kids. I have to try to work through it for my children. The thought of not being able to raise them or someone else raising them is unbearable. They deserve a chance for a intact family/home.


Some old man was asked on the secret to his long marriage, he replied "Neither of us fell out of love with each other at the same time."

You have the best reasons to fight - you still actually love your wife and you love your children. The next best alternative, a new woman who loves you, still ranks below your wife because of your love for your wife, so stick with trying to save the marriage. Understand though that the discouragement you're already feeling, the despair, will continue to grow within you and eventually the prospect of a new woman who loves you will rank higher than your unrequited love for your wife. The only out with respect to that outcome is that your wife recenters and comes back to you.

As for your intel, "don't get cocky, kid" - how good is your intel when it comes to Kik and Snapchat and "within game messaging apps"? How good is your intel with her communication to a co-worker while at work? How well can you account for her time away from you?

There are a few nightmare scenarios with the catching a cheater process - a newbie cheater is coached by an experienced cheater, so the newbie avoids all of the easy to catch mistakes. The other is a strictly office affair with strict message discipline. There are a number of stories here where the affair meet-ups took place when both partners simply took an afternoon off and went to a hotel and got back to their respective homes at their expected times.

Var the house, nannycam the house, var the car, gps the phone, keylog the phone and other devices. Make sure she really is at work for all of the time she is supposed to be.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

As for her father's illness, be strong for her, carry the load and let her go to him, let her grieve and support her. Don't be the cause of additional angst. Turn your focus onto the kids, when they run to mommy for a drink, you jump and get them the drink, let mommy be free of mommy duties. Don't though be overly clingy and solicitous of her needs, just the kids.

Move back into the home, continue the separation only within-home. She can leave for a few days to continue that birdnesting arrangement. On her days, you let her be the principal caregiver and silently do your 180, leave the house, don't ask permission. On your days, you be the principal caregiver, better yet the sole caregiver, but only for the kids.

Good luck.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lance Mannion said:


> For those who take back WS, the above is the exact dynamic they are counting on, the WS has already given the "I'm not in love with you speech" and now fallen for the AP, but post-discovery and in reconciliation, they have to mourn the loss of their AP and then they begin to fall back in love with the BS.


Are you serious about this or are you saying that this is a BS fantasy??

There is nothing that says a WW will fall back in love with the BH if things fall apart with the AP. 

Some WWs may go back to their BH for financial support, roof over their head and access to the children. 

But many are simply going through the motions and marking time until their next AP comes along.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Are you serious about this or are you saying that this is a BS fantasy??
> 
> There is nothing that says a WW will fall back in love with the BH if things fall apart with the AP.
> 
> ...


I wrote "That's what they're counting on." This is the process the BS *wants* to happen.

I concluded with the observation that there's no way one can tell beforehand whether that love is dead and forever buried or can be resurrected. Those who attempt reconciliation are gambling on the latter, but often get stuck with the former.

I suspect there are two biochemical process at work. The intensity of love will ebb and flow. I've seen this play out in my own marriage, things hum along at a nice level for a while and then one of us starts falling deeply, giddily, in love again and pulls the other back into that stage, we ride that intensity for a period of time and then slip back down into a calmer love. So, this is one process, for the OP's situation, I suspect his wife could come back to him. The second process is if that love transfers to another person. I think something switches in the brain, it gets rewired, and so the old wiring can no longer be activated, in the former case the wiring still exists but there is no current of love running through the wiring, but bring the current of love back and the wiring is there to handle that load, but the latter case destroys that wiring, it got remapped onto a new person. I suppose when it is said that a successful reconciliation means that the old marriage is dead a new one is made, some aspect of that requires a new love wiring diagram to be laid down in the brain of the WS. I don't know!


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

*


ClaytonRE49 said:



Thanks for the reply. Yes my wife has said that she disconnected from me. She is caught in the “I have to feel a certain way” in order to reconnect. I do not think the feelings will return until we work on reconnecting. She just doesn’t see it that way. She wants feelings to come back then and only then can she open up for reconnection. I have been saying this to her for a while. She just can’t seem to grasp it or simply doesn’t want to.

Click to expand...

*I'm going to let you in on a little secret.

As a general rule, when a woman is done, she's _*done*_. 

That's why more women initiate divorce than men in the US. Because once they're done, they're ready to move on.

Your wife is keeping you dangling on the fishing line for selfish reasons. She's mostly done but doesn't want to cut the string just yet until she's sure it's the best move for her. It's no different than choosing not to give notice at your job until you're *sure* you've got a bigger, better deal solidly lined up - only then, would you give notice.

I think she's doing the same thing. She's not waiting for "love" to come back. She's still waiting to see if it benefits her MORE to divorce you or not.


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## ClaytonRE49 (Dec 14, 2020)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I'm going to let you in on a little secret.
> 
> As a general rule, when a woman is done, she's _*done*_.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the insight. I understand that very well may be the case. As I am not ready to divorce then what are my options really. I am putting a plan in place to take care of myself and my children as this will be the best way to handle whatever happens. If she decides she wants to leave then she knows how to do it.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

ClaytonRE49 said:


> I appreciate the insight. I understand that very well may be the case. As I am not ready to divorce then what are my options really. I am putting a plan in place to take care of myself and my children as this will be the best way to handle whatever happens. If she decides she wants to leave then she knows how to do it.


Read that thread I linked to earlier. It's a long slog to read, but so is this path you're on. That dude brought his WAW back into the marriage. Watch his story unfold.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Because marriages/relatiionships are movies not snapshots in time. There is an ebb and flow to the intensity of feelings.
> 
> For those who take back WS, the above is the exact dynamic they are counting on, the WS has already given the "I'm not in love with you speech" and now fallen for the AP, but post-discovery and in reconciliation, they have to mourn the loss of their AP and then they begin to fall back in love with the BS.
> 
> ...


If this were an 'inside the bell curve' type of incident, we would be on the same sheet of music. 

This is not that type of situation. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

How much time does her father have left? You can give yourself a time limit on how long you will allow your wife to wallow in indecisiveness. 

Her maintaining that she has to have romantic feelings before trying to reconnect is backasswards. Connecting is what leads to romantic feelings. That is what dating is all about. A woman doesn't just wake up one day and think "I'm feeling romantic and think I'll round up some poor slob to connect with". Maybe she is substituting the word romance for horny. If she is, there are solutions for that.


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## ClaytonRE49 (Dec 14, 2020)

Update: I’m a Nice Guy and I have some work to do.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ClaytonRE49 said:


> Update: I’m a Nice Guy and I have some work to do.


Yes you do but it’s not as hard as you may initially think. 

The road to recovery for a Nice Guy is basically just advocating for yourself and standing up for your own best interests and not basing your actions on the preferences and comforts of other people. 

Don’t set set yourself in fire to keep her warm. 

Stand up for yourself and don’t compromise your best interests to keep her from feeling uncomfortable or upset.


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## ClaytonRE49 (Dec 14, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Yes you do but it’s not as hard as you may initially think.
> 
> The road to recovery for a Nice Guy is basically just advocating for yourself and standing up for your own best interests and not basing your actions on the preferences and comforts of other people.
> 
> ...


Thank you! Just trying to get things sorted and find a place to start


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ClaytonRE49 said:


> Thank you! Just trying to get things sorted and find a place to start


The best place to start is to simply say NO if something is not acceptable.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

I do think some of the others are correct in two ways...

First, if she is checked out of the marriage, there is little you can do (she has essentially told you this with ILYBNILWY)

Second, this sounds way too much like she has emotional attachment somewhere else. I know you don't want to believe it, but all the signs are there.
Where is her father being treated and is she going there / another town often? Like potentially her hometown where old sweethearts might be?

Lastly, question about the MC that recommended separation, did your wife meet with her or talk with her individually first? I am suspicious MC knew the real story which you've yet to hear.

At this point I think you goals need to be:

Keep your side of the street clean by being a great dad and doing your share (but not more) around the house. (Houses I guess in your case).
Focus on being the best you can be health wise... workout, run, get some hobbies (kinda limited due to COVID).
Get your ducks in a row... financially / legally, you need to be preparing for the possibility that this will end shortly.
Do some manly stuff - work on your house / car - stand up for yourself with her. So far a lot of your actions have seemed weak (not trying to saying that to be harsh - just reality of nice guy syndrome).


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

oldshirt said:


> The best place to start is to simply say NO if something is not acceptable.


@ClaytonRE49, 

I know a very good way to learn to say "No", because honestly, I have trouble saying a flat out "No" to someone and especially someone I love! But what I can and DO say is "This is not okay with me."

Have you ever noticed that funny feeling in your stomach, a little bit like you got punched in the gut, when something is bothering you and it's not okay with you? Have you ever noticed how you scrunch up your shoulders and feel sort of stiff in your neck? Have you ever noticed your chest feeling heavy because you want to say something is bothering you but you are literally holding your breath? 

These are all physical clues that something is bothering you and is not okay with you. "Not okay with you" means that either you disagree with a decision, you don't like the way you're being treated, you aren't okay with the way you are being spoken to, or you just plain don't want or want to do something and you haven't said "no". You are not okay with it...whatever it is! So you notice one or more of the physical clues above, and you realize "Ah ha! I am not okay with *_*" (whatever it may be). " Then you say that, very simply.

As an example, I was packing lunches for my Beloved Hubby and it was not working out. I was trying to "read his mind" and pick what I thought he wanted to eat, and yet I felt like a failure because I never picked the right combination AND it made his stomach hurt. HE was feeling like I was trying to control what he ate and when he ate it. So I spoke with him--cried a little, I confess, and I said "I am not okay with this. It's not working for me to pack your lunches." I told him why (because I felt like a failure and it hurt his stomach) and he told me how he felt, and I proposed something that WOULD work for me: "Would you be willing to *_*?"

Now that is a super simple, easy example, but even for more complex situations, it can work: "I am not okay with this. It is not working for me to be separated with no goals and no end in sight." Say why it doesn't work for you--what you think and how you feel--and then propose what WOULD work for you: "Would you be willing to set a goal of a date once-a-week planned by me as a steady encouragment to keep trying?" or "Would you be willing to set a goal of steadily moving toward reconciliation or filing for divorce within 3 months?" Then she can say yes or no, but if she says no, then she needs to tell you what she IS willing to do...and then you can decide if you are willing to live with that or not. Because guess what? "Can I have a break from my wedding vows so I can practice being single?" is not a reasonable request! It's reasonable to answer that one with "Uh, that is not okay with me!"


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Clayton.......everytime I saw your name I kept thinking 'is this Kershaw for the Dodgers?' Crazy thought....

You've read the No More Mr. Nice Guy. At least you are now at a start. I would like to add DeMello's "Awareness" it is on pdf.

I will go into detail, if you like, about the #1, #2, and #3 actions in the book. What you should be doing is things for yourself. It's so easy to

neglect yourself while providing for the family. Plan activities and outings for you and the kids. I would not ask the W to go.... if she wants to, she'll let you know.

You are getting on with your life....with or without her. There also could be a connection to her parent who I think I read was terminally ill.

My W called things off with me (we were dating) three years ago. Her brother had just passed. I knew why she called it. I hugged her, smiled and left.

Hurt...yeah it did but my life was to continue. Three days later, she had a meltdown. I knew it was coming but just not "when."

Treaded lightly for awhile but she sought help. Been together ever since. 

Be willing to lose everything to get it back.


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