# What's it take to be considered fWS or former cheater?



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Several posts recently got me to thinking about this and I was wondering what is the time frame that is considered to be the line that differentiates one between a WS and fWS or former cheater?

I see several posts stating, I, or my WS, haven't strayed or done anything remotely inappropriate in x amount of years? 

So is it a time frame, the actions, or the total package that makes one a fWS/ cheater?

Some say and believe "once a cheater, always a cheater", but does anything get reset after the D occurs or after R, how long before one is considered differently in this regard?

I know that with relatives that have been diagnosed with various forms of cancer, that at the 5 year mark of being all clear, they are considered to no longer have cancer and be a survivor. Is there a comparable time frame for infidelity and is it just a time frame? I am pretty sure (the doubt will always be there) that my WW hasn't been with anyone else since d-day, yet she is not remorseful, so even she doesn't cheat for x amount of years does she automatically become a fWS even though remorse and regret were never exhibited?

Is just seems that people that were considered to be non-cheaters after years of being dedicated and monogamous to one person, but then if they slip up they are immediately a serial cheater with a huge time frame between actions and everything between comes into question.

Does a cheater ever escape this fate? 

I am a BS and wonder if after my D, does that give my WW a get out of jail free card, essentially a do over in the eyes of most, or what will it take for her to no longer be considered solely as a cheater in the eyes of most (other than moving away and getting a whole new set of friends and relatives that never knew her history)? Keep in mind it has been over 2 years since the last time she had a EA/PA, does this make a difference? 

Not really concerned about it, just wondering other opinions on this?


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

some good examples here on TAM of FWW are: EI, Mrs John Adams, Regret and there are others


R takes 2 to 5 years (with the right wayward spouse)


----------



## CH (May 18, 2010)

For you, it's forever. Always going to be the cheater cuz they did cheat on you. No need to sugar coat it.

For someone new, not a cheater until they cheat on them.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

CH said:


> For you, it's forever. Always going to be the cheater cuz they did cheat on you. No need to sugar coat it.
> 
> For someone new, not a cheater until they cheat on them.


That's a fair answer, so is it immediate then in your opinion??


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

convert said:


> some good examples here on TAM of FWW are: EI, Mrs John Adams, Regret and there are others
> 
> 
> R takes 2 to 5 years (with the right wayward spouse)


I agree they are excellent examples, but the question is what does it take. Yes they say R is 2 to 5 years, but after that time to be a successful R, does that automatically make them a fWS or do they still carry the WS title for a while after or do they get it sooner?

Do they get to give themselves the title of former or does it have to come from their wronged?


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> I agree they are excellent examples, but the question is what does it take. Yes they say R is 2 to 5 years, but after that time to be a successful R, does that automatically make them a fWS or do they still carry the WS title for a while after or do they get it sooner?


not sure I can answer that (still early for me)
one thing I can say for sure that I will neeeeever have 100% trust in my WW but then again if I divorced and met someone new I would not have 100% trust in them either.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

convert said:


> not sure I can answer that (still early for me)
> one thing I can say for sure that I will neeeeever have 100% trust in my WW but then again if I divorced and met someone new I would not have 100% trust in them either.


Doesn't that mean you will always be a BS? When something changes you that much, how can you ever not label yourself a BS? I guess if you heal enough that you can trust the way you did before the betrayal? Do you really want to trust that much, ever, again?




I think it takes a different strategy for marriage after being betrayed, just as it takes a different strategy for the WS or FWS. They can never go back to doing things the way they did and neither can the BS. 

So, really, all this talk of worrying about the label is moot. So much wasted time when none of us can ever go back to who we were before, not the BS and not the WS.

Each day presents new challenges for each. Each must deal with those challenges in a healthy manner to stay a FBS or a FWS, don't you think?

We are on opposite sides and reconciliation is kind of like living with the enemy. No, not the movie, just the expression. We love who they were, in both cases at some point in the marriage, before the infidelity. We hate them after. 

The WS believes they were pushed to it by the BS and will never think differently. The BS believes they didn't do anything that should have pushed their spouse to cheat. It boils down to two different people after the affair, trying to learn about a new person. They are both different from who they were. 

Can they find that love again? We'd like to think so. We call it love. Unlikely, even in the best reconciliations, I think they find a different love. Something more akin to duty and honor, than innocent first love between two new partners. There's always a past now. How can anyone have that innocent love? 

I don't mean naive love, just new fresh innocent love. We then try to force ourselves to believe that this is a new relationship, better than it ever was before. Maybe it is in some cases. There are no absolutes where people are concerned. There are only best guesses and past performance expectations. 

In a new relationship, you don't have past performance issues. At least, not ones directly affecting the potential husband/wife. It's inherently easier in that sense. There are many other problems that will be surprises, though. Some the BS/FBS and the WS/FWS have already been through and know how to handle. 

I don't think there is a time limit on it, just acceptance of what is, right here, right now. That's when, a WS becomes a FWS or a BS becomes a FBS. The potential is always there. 

I think a soldier who has had to kill, can relate to this a little better. He/she is not the same as the recruit they once were and never will be again. Some of that recruit will show through from time to time, but they will never be that person again.

ETA: In this case, when I use the term, "perfomance", I mean what we have done in the past, not necessarily sexually related, but all things we've done, both the BS and WS.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't refer to my hubby as a WS or a fWS. I refer to him as my hubby  

He will always have cheated on me, so I suppose you'd be technically correct to call him a cheater. That's something that cannot ever be undone. And I will always be a BS. I tend to refer to myself as one, on here anyway, in CWI. But IRL I don't usually think about it much.

I think the BS is the one who gets to decide what to call their spouse. WS, fWS, POSWS, a$$hole, whatever. THEIR spouse. Not every WS, just theirs. Each BS has their own personal hell to live through, and no one else can do it for them, or decide when they've come out the other side.

Another note - I think sometimes people call their ex their fWS too, as in they're their former spouse who's also a wayward.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

So what they are saying is, they don't want to be called a WS any more, by anyone? That seems reasonable. Now, don't ask me to accept that when they say they have changed, they actually have. If I have no right to say they are a WS, by the same token, I have no ability to know if they truly are a FWS. Make sense?

If you think more on it, you will realize, it's not what I or anyone else calls them, it's what they believe about themselves that hurts.

I can do that. I can no longer call a WS a WS. How will we discern the difference between the two? What term would be appropriate and not so hurtful?

There has to be a way to distinguish between the two. Different advice will have to be given for each. Or are you suggesting they both need the same advice?

ETA: Would you like to also change the term for BS'? What term would you like to use? 

I mean, the ones who deserved it? Cause, all BS' seemed to deserve it. They did something or many things that drove their spouse to have an affair outside the marriage. There really wasn't a choice left for the unfaithful.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Part of the problem is, there are some things that cannot be undone. 

If a man or woman commits a murder, when are they no longer considered a murderer?

If a man or woman is a child abuser, when are they no longer considered a child abuser?

If a man or woman robs a bank or holds up a store with a gun, when is he/she no longer considered an armed robber?

Does it take time, a persistent conviction and actions toward justice? Does it take a prison sentence that has been carried out and served? Does it take a fine paid? What does it take?

Which of you have not considered one of those above as no longer a murderer, child abuser, abuser or armed robber? You give them the best job they deserve or put them in a position which will keep them away from temptation? Do you reduce their wages because you now, as the employer, have to watch them, using more money than you would before? 

I know this isn't a case of the crimes above. I also know that there are things which cannot be taken back. They cannot be undone. The pain and harm goes on for the rest of their lives. It is the same with infidelity in marriage. The pain and harm does not go away. We learn, both wayward and betrayed, to cope with what is today. That's all we can do. We accept our plight due to our choices. Did the criminals above have a choice to get a job, talk to a counselor and get some meds, or just work through their issues? You see, if it didn't have such a negative impact on so many lives, there likely would not be a label at all.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You're way more concerned with the semantics than I am


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Does it take time, a persistent conviction and actions toward justice? Does it take a prison sentence that has been carried out and served? Does it take a fine paid? What does it take?


All good examples and I thought about those as I was composting the original post, but the above is the same question that has been going through my head a lot recently as I have realized R was futile and we have decided D is the only way. Since then I have had the questions above running through my head as I wonder how my kids will be affected without me in the picture??


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

It takes a long time for a BS to build trust or forgive their WS. Lots of heavy lifting and time required by WS. They have to deal with the occasional flareups of anger and resentment and truly own the hurt they've caused.

That being said, the moment a WS is remorseful and vows to never cheat again is when they are reformed. They just have a lot of work to do building trust, etc. So in theory they could be a reformed WS when they're cleaning up the mess ewww.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

There is a member here who owns what he did. He has stated he has slapped his wife around. He has accepted who he is. He takes responsibility for his past and has improved himself to no longer choose to act similarly. 

I have to tell you, I have respect for him. 

He doesn't care about the labels. He chooses, each day, to do what he knows is right. He accepts that he has the potential to act in a similar manner when certain conditions arise. He chooses not to do those things again. He does not hide from it. 

He owns the label and chooses to act differently. He will always be that label, but he will do all in his power, never to do it again. He doesn't complain about it when he is called out on it. He accepts that he did those things. 

Acceptance of who we are and concerted effort to own the issues that are ours, makes the difference. Had he not accepted his responsibility and known that he could have chosen a different way to handle those situations, he could not have healed. 

Please forgive me, sir, for mentioning you. I did not use your username, but you know who you are. I have great respect for what you have accomplished.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> the moment a WS is remorseful and vows to never cheat again is when they are reformed.


Problem with this is that no one has any way of knowing if or when this actually happens, except the WS themselves. No BS in their right mind is going to believe their cheating spouse when they SAY this. The WS is going to have to prove it for a looooooooooong time before the BS will believe it. At least, that's the way it SHOULD be. Many BS's do believe their cheating spouse when they say they're sorry, but find out later it was just another lie.

So there will be WS's who are actually fWS's being called cheaters still, and cheaters pretending to be fWS's whose BS's believe them when they shouldn't.

This is all giving me a headache


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Problem with this is that no one has any way of knowing if or when this actually happens, except the WS themselves. No BS in their right mind is going to believe their cheating spouse when they SAY this. The WS is going to have to prove it for a looooooooooong time before the BS will believe it. At least, that's the way it SHOULD be. Many BS's do believe their cheating spouse when they say they're sorry, but find out later it was just another lie.
> 
> So there will be WS's who are actually fWS's being called cheaters still, and cheaters pretending to be fWS's whose BS's believe them when they shouldn't.
> 
> This is all giving me a headache


:iagree:
No doubt. A WS has a lot of work and a long time doing it if attempting reconciliation. My guess is when someone cheats and instantly feels the guilt and remorse, their spouse often never learns that it happened.


----------



## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

It’s just nomenclature used to simplify. They will be and forever more shall be a wayward because they cheated. 

Once a BS decides adultery or justification of it isn’t current, a concern, or an ongoing threat, they might refer to them as fWW (former wayward). It’s not a hallpass… it’s basically so the reader knows they aren’t currently cheating. So the advice or take might be different and some bit of slack given to the former wayward.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I can't imagine anyone in real life calling someone a WS or a BS. On here, there must be some kind of understanding. The views, thoughts, and considerations are 180 degrees different.


----------



## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Because the offense was made against the BS, wouldn't it be their
decision, in which case there may be a part of them that will always consider the WS a WS.
I have never called my wife a wayward spouse anywhere but here and then it seemed more like a way to differentiate the players involved after all you can't tell the actors with out a program.
Unfortunately as infidelity stains a relationship forever I am unsure the length of time it takes for those feelings to go away if ever.
I don't want to disparage any of the long term reconciled that are here after all you are bright examples of success in overcoming infidelity and how relationships can be rebuilt, but the fact that you are here after so many years does show that infidelity will always affect a relationship.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> well...we have been married 42 years and my affair was thirty years ago....Can I just be his wife?...God I hope so. Mr.JA has never called me his wayward wife....
> Coming to TAM has certainly taught me a lot of things...I have learned names and phrases and abbreviations I never knew existed.
> 
> It is a good question though squeaker....I have often wondered how long I need to specify those letters WW about myself...
> ...



Good points here.

Yes I never have referred to my wife as wayward outside of TAM.

I mistakenly, as a joke, a while back introduced her as my FIRST WIFE (She is the only wife i have ever had).

she did not think that was funny at all....... I apologized to her


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> She is just probably sensitive about it...but you apologized..so all is well


Mrs. JA who ever refers to you as a "cheater" would be very wrong. I understand the term fWS in the context of this forum but I'm sure to JA you are simply his wife - for better or worse right?


----------



## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Two thoughts:

Is there such thing as a former alcoholic? Even if they never drink again, they are still an alcoholic. As I see it, cheaters are in that same boat. But same as an alcoholic, that doesn't mean they should be defined by it; if they turn their life around.

So maybe the phrase of "once a cheater always a cheater" should be revised to - "once a cheater, always capable of being a cheater".


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I think once you cheat, your are always a cheater. It's no different than if you killed someone or are an alcoholic. You can have all the remorse in the world, get the help you need and never actively engage in cheating, killing or consuming alcohol ever again. But in the end, you are what you are. Even the attendees of Al-Anon meetings still consider themselves alcoholics.

Having said that, I believe that overtime if a WS is fully repentant of the cheating and wants to remain with the BS, then the trust can be rebuilt. You cannot undo what you did, but you can choose to no longer pursue the activity and become a good spouse.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> Since then I have had the questions above running through my head as I wonder how my kids will be affected without me in the picture??


Side note: why would you be out of the picture with your kids? Just because you divorce their mother doesn't mean you stop being their dad.

You work hard to stay in the picture and minimize any effect on the kids.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Can I tell you a little story?
> Before my affair....we had gone to a company picnic....and mr JA introduced me as his wife...no name..just this is my wife.
> I was insulted and furious and I bit his head off. This was totally out of character for me....and it took him by surprise. Not long after that...I made my decision to be a cheater.
> 
> ...


wow i am glad he didn't say "this is my first wife"

can i ask is it that you felt disrespected?


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

To me, if you are cheating, or looking to cheat, you are a cheater.

If you are not cheating, and try to avoid putting yourself in situations where you might be tempted, then you are not a cheater.

Past doesn't matter unless you are asking 'were' you a cheater. So to me, 'former' means reformed, or 'used to but no longer does it, or wants to do it'.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Side note: why would you be out of the picture with your kids? Just because you divorce their mother doesn't mean you stop being their dad.
> 
> You work hard to stay in the picture and minimize any effect on the kids.


Yes I am still in their lives but at best it will more than likely be 50% of the time but as we stand we are looking at one child moving and living with her (she needs and wants to move closer to work) and I will have the other child whom wants to stay with me to be closer to her school she wishes to continue attending. 

We have asked the girls what they would like and prefer and these are the choices. So with one I will have significantly less time with than the other. I consider this and when they are solely with her out of the picture (kind of the whole out of sight out of mind theory and hope I M wrong with this thinking). Yes we will be co-parenting and I will still be part of their lives. So not entirely removed from the situation.

I hope this explains my current state of mind and thinking a little clearer. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

It takes the WS to use the same words as the BS when describing the affair.

When a BS says it was a PA.

And the WS insists on calling it a ONS.

When in reality there was a EA for many months first before it then turned into a PA one night.

You see a ONS is just that. The WS meets the AP for the first time one night and has a one time PA and then never sees the AP again. There never was a EA first.

The WS admitting they had F'd the AP. Is just that admitting they had sex with the AP.

That admission does not allow for the denial that there was no EA, and that it was just a ONS.

The WS and the BS have to use the same terms. To what the letter "F" in front of WS the WS can not continue to use terms that minimize or make what the WS did sound less damaging.

In other words stop sounding as if the WS was talking as the Presidents Press Secretary.


----------

