# Becoming the Alpha



## Adex

Women want the alpha, but how can you attain it? I myself don't think of myself as a pure alpha. I used to be nice and try to get along with everyone. However, over the years I learned that it's better to be more alpha for your career and in your marriage.

Some things I try to do myself that have helped me:

-Whenever there's a decision to be made, I try to decide one way or another without hesitation. Even if it's as small as where are we going to eat or what do I want to do. I decide and she follows.

-I'm not as nice to my spouse in terms of helping around the house or with my kid. I don't show her much affection. Whatever she does, I do a bit less. This makes her like me more.

My sex life has improved as a result. Any other ideas? Becoming the alpha is a learning process...


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## moco82

It's a closed loop with the hesitation, isn't it? Once you realize you may hesitate, it already doesn't count. If you've taken a decision without hesitation, the absence of hesitation doesn't immediately register. The only analogy I can think of at the moment is learning to ski: your body balances itself when you stop looking down.


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## that_girl

Don't be a pure alpha. They are d1cks.


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## barcafan

I've never met a man who was pure alpha. We all have our ups and downs. Sometimes I am as alpha as it gets....sometimes I might engage in beta behavior and put a stop to it...and sometimes I'm an omega cause I like going solo and doing my own thing...so for me.....alpha+omega=good, beta=bad.


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## nathaniel2518

its human nature to be attracted to someone who is interesting, successful and moving forward - and the key, to take care of you. 
you have to live it and become it which is the hard part especially because it may involve being stronger than you have been and sticking to your guns. 

a lot of guys fall into the trap of being like a servant - in my view - it is often because they are moulded that way early in the relationship ... and then they look up years later and realise they have lost their way and lost respect all because they were trying so hard to please...

good luck anyway - it is something i trying out at the moment


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## BookOfJob

Adex, you may want to bump up (bring this thread back from the past) by posting there:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/56922-suggestions-upping-alpha.html#post1096883

Would be great to have them all in one thread and see if any new ideas start to flow again.



nathaniel2518 said:


> ........ and the key, to take care of you.....


Again, very true, and at the same time, very counterintuitive for us nice guys. That's why NMMNG is a good read as it emphasizes the above.


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## Adex

nathaniel2518 said:


> a lot of guys fall into the trap of being like a servant - in my view - it is often because they are moulded that way early in the relationship ... and then they look up years later and realise they have lost their way and lost respect all because they were trying so hard to please...


That is true. Men are taught by society to be a gentleman, the nice guy, romantic, and the girl will love you for it. It has caused a whole generation of wimps and metrosexuals.

The truth is, women think they want that but they really don't. Deep down inside, women want a strong confident man that isn't super nice to them, will disagree with things from time to time, won't be their servant, will tell them what to do, and will lead them. It's what turns a girl on.


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## barcafan

haha romantic movies caused so much confusion in me when I was growing up!


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## Therealbrighteyes

Adex said:


> That is true. Men are taught by society to be a gentleman, the nice guy, romantic, and the girl will love you for it. It has caused a whole generation of wimps and metrosexuals.
> 
> The truth is, women think they want that but they really don't. Deep down inside, women want a strong confident man that isn't super nice to them, will disagree with things from time to time, won't be their servant, will tell them what to do, and will lead them. It's what turns a girl on.



When did you get a vagina? Until you do, just stop telling or speaking on behalf of women. I know what I believe and I sure as heck don't need some dude to tell me what I want. You are also wrong, for me at least. The simple fact that you think you know what women want and are so bold to speak for an entire sex, makes you sexual napalm to me. Tell me again about how I get turned on, I friggin dare you.


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## gitandash

OOH adex, you are treading on fine glass. you are tight about society carving men but it carves women too.

It depends on what type of partner you end up with that either enables you or not to remain as you were bought up or change according to your situation. 

I also believe that your character is formed from a very young age from your parents as your role models. My father-in-law is a very strong, only what he says go and my mother-in-law does not have a say at all ever (not even what she wears sometimes!)if she wears new clothes as she fancies sometimes. 

I feel that my husband is similar except that i was bought up by parents who were very much in love and they both decided on all everyday and family or their own couple issues. So it's like my father-in-law character being married to my mother character (my huband and me!).

In the end life is too short. One has to know what they want in life. If you are not happy then this day and age it's very acceptable to move on!!


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## Caribbean Man

Adex said:


> That is true. Men are taught by society to be a gentleman, the nice guy, romantic, and the girl will love you for it. *It has caused a whole generation of wimps and metrosexuals.*
> .


:iagree: x 1000%!

I don't think men should " try " to be more Alpha.

A lot of guys over analyze this stuff.

What a man need to do is work on improving himself. 
Part of that work includes discarding everything society and the media taught you about how women want to be treated and what type of man a woman is sexually attracted to.

Self confidence is one of the basic traits of the Alpha male.

Self confidence and sexual attraction comes when you ;

1] Break every rule and stop being predictable.
2]Set your own personal rules, and stick to it.
3]Stop accepting disrespect from ANYBODY.
4]Take responsibility for yourself, your sexuality, your manhood. DO NOT BEG FOR SEX.
5]Learn how to say NO to people, including women .
6]Take charge of your marriage / relationships.


Last but not least.
You cannot tell a woman what makes her a woman.After all ,
She_ is_ a woman.
Conversley,
NEVER allow any woman to define you, categorize you ,or tell you what makes a man,
A MAN.

You are the MAN.


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## Gunthar

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree: x 1000%!
> 
> Last but not least.
> You cannot tell a woman what makes her a woman.After all ,
> She_ is_ a woman.
> Conversley,
> NEVER allow any woman to define you, categorize you ,or tell you what makes a man,
> A MAN.
> 
> You are the MAN.


Powerful stuff here and think may be the root cause to a lot of issues with men having issues with women......they want to be a gentlemen....do what a woman wants to make her happy......looks like that can backfire more often than be successful.

:smthumbup:


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## johnnycomelately

To me there is nothing so 'beta' as worrying about not being more 'alpha'. You are who you are. Trying to engineer your personality for fear of your spouse leaving is sad and will be really transparent. Like a kid smoking to try to look more grown up.


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## Cosmos

Adex said:


> That is true. Men are taught by society to be a gentleman, the nice guy, romantic, and the girl will love you for it. It has caused a whole generation of wimps and metrosexuals.
> 
> The truth is, women think they want that but they really don't. Deep down inside, women want a strong confident man that isn't super nice to them, will disagree with things from time to time, won't be their servant, will tell them what to do, and will lead them. It's what turns a girl on.


To a large extent this is true, OP, but there's a fine balance...

My partner is alpha, but he manages to combine those qualities with being a true gentleman. He has no need to 'prove' himself by not helping around the home or holding back on affection etc. To me those aren't alpha qualities, they're manipulative games that I would see through in a trice and find most unattractive.

I can see how a Nice Guy has to make certain changes in order to earn more respect, but, as I said, there's a fine balance.


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## Deejo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> When did you get a vagina? Until you do, just stop telling or speaking on behalf of women. I know what I believe and I sure as heck don't need some dude to tell me what I want. You are also wrong, for me at least. The simple fact that you think you know what women want and are so bold to speak for an entire sex, makes you sexual napalm to me. Tell me again about how I get turned on, I friggin dare you.


Are you beating up the boys on the playground again?

Adex, I'm very glad that the steps you have taken have improved your marriage. Improving the marriage is not always the outcome.

And as many do point out, when someone decides to take a hard look at their behavior within a relationship, if the changes they implement don't ring true to their partner, it can also spell further alienation or ridicule ... at which point it's time to close up shop.


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## Machiavelli

Therealbrighteyes said:


> When did you get a vagina? Until you do, just stop telling or speaking on behalf of women.


Well, I got my first one when I was 11. And that was just the beginning. So I know a lot about getting vaginas.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

My husband is the nice guy type, especially when it comes to me. He's always put my needs before his own and in return I do the same for him.

I wouldn't want my husband any other way. I love him for who he is. We have a very fulfilling and happy marriage. If he were the alpha type to me, I highly doubt I would of married him. We both work on our marriage equally hard and it's our number one priority. My husband and I are very similar in personalities and we both adore each other. My husband is the boss in his department, I'm sure he gets the alpha fix he needs through his work.


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## norajane

I don't think all women are the same nor want the same kind of guy nor want the same kind of lifestyle nor want the same kind of relationship dynamics with their partners. So it doesn't make sense to me that all guys need to be "alpha".

Sure, if you aren't respected by your partner, absolutely take a good hard look at who you are, what your relationship dynamics are, and who your wife is. 

But trying to be more "alpha" is not a cure-all.


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## Cosmos

norajane said:


> I don't think all women are the same nor want the same kind of guy nor want the same kind of lifestyle nor want the same kind of relationship dynamics with their partners. So it doesn't make sense to me that all guys need to be "alpha".
> 
> Sure, if you aren't respected by your partner, absolutely take a good hard look at who you are, what your relationship dynamics are, and who your wife is.
> 
> But trying to be more "alpha" is not a cure-all.


Absolutely.

I've matured into a strong, independent woman and I tend to gravitate towards men who are similar. When my partner and I disagree, it isn't a battle of wills for one of us to come out on top, or for him to prove he's alpha. We respectfully negotiate until we find some common ground, each respecting one another's opinions and boundaries. Any major decisions would be formed and based on the most logical option, not whose opinion mattered most.


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## Goldmember357

stop with this alpha crap its garbage

my lord it does not exist


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## MaritimeGuy

Goldmember357 said:


> stop with this alpha crap its garbage
> 
> my lord it does not exist


I agree with this. 

I believe it's true of anyone, male or female, who has a healthy self esteem...we're attracted to people who exude confidence. After all, if a person doubts themselves all the time shouldn't we doubt them too? They know themselves better than we do. 

My sense is being a "more dominant" male; disregarding her feelings, doing less around the house, taking her at your will, doing what you want only works with woman with low self esteem. They go along not out of respect...but out of fear. 

The important thing is to be yourself and be proud of who you are. That's what's going to attract a quality woman.


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## Cre8ify

I made my wife's favorite dinner last night...lots of fresh herbs and fussing. Our deal is whoever cooks the other cleans up. She was packing for an overnight business trip and left a few pots on the stove. I left them there until nearly midnight and asked her if they were going to stay there until Friday when she returned. She was busted and stammered something unintelligible so I told her I could help her out and finish the kitchen...but I have added allot of weight to my core workout this week and am dying to try out my new abs.

Everybody wins...a mix of beta and obnoxious alpha.


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## Caribbean Man

Just couldn't help it........

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html

OP,
These are things I've known since I was in my twenties.

You cannot tell a woman which type of sanitary pad works for her and which ones don't and to what degree. You cannot even tell her which medication works best for her menstrual cramps.

Similarly, you alone know your problem, what you have tried and to what degree it has worked.
What's important is if , and how can it WORK FOR YOU.
This is not about them and their relationships. 
This is not about your wife either.
Its about you taking charge of your life and relationship.


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## Cosmos

MaritimeGuy said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> I believe it's true of anyone, male or female, who has a healthy self esteem...we're attracted to people who exude confidence. After all, if a person doubts themselves all the time shouldn't we doubt them too? They know themselves better than we do.
> 
> My sense is being a "more dominant" male; disregarding her feelings, doing less around the house, taking her at your will, doing what you want only works with woman with low self esteem. They go along not out of respect...but out of fear.
> 
> The important thing is to be yourself and be proud of who you are. That's what's going to attract a quality woman.


:iagree:

It's a comparitively new adjective used to describe a strong, confident man. Sadly, some of the behaviours that are often described necessary in order to be deemed alpha are not only negative but thoroughly unworkable in a mature relationship.


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## StoneAngel

Therealbrighteyes said:


> When did you get a vagina? Until you do, just stop telling or speaking on behalf of women. I know what I believe and I sure as heck don't need some dude to tell me what I want. You are also wrong, for me at least. The simple fact that you think you know what women want and are so bold to speak for an entire sex, makes you sexual napalm to me. Tell me again about how I get turned on, I friggin dare you.



I love your fire. Have you read The Way of the Superior Man?? 
I would love your take on it Stay confident in your womanhood!


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## Machiavelli

Adex said:


> My sex life has improved as a result. Any other ideas? Becoming the alpha is a learning process...


Splitting traits/behaviors/sex rank into Alpha-Beta is useful in limited contexts, like getting laid (alphas score and betas don't) or using it to describe leadership or passive behaviors in marriage. However, I find Vox Day's expanded male hierarchy to be the most useful definition set for a wider application of real life behaviors and situations.

That's an excellent blog, also.


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## Machiavelli

Goldmember357 said:


> stop with this alpha crap its garbage
> 
> my lord it does not exist


The Lord says otherwise. Read I and II Samuel to see how women throw over their husbands in a heartbeat to mate with one of the greatest alphas known to history. One of the greatest depictions of female hypergamy ever. Along with what happens in a marriage when unchecked alpha traits run amok.


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## CandieGirl

Cre8ify said:


> I made my wife's favorite dinner last night...lots of fresh herbs and fussing. Our deal is whoever cooks the other cleans up. She was packing for an overnight business trip and left a few pots on the stove. I left them there until nearly midnight and asked her if they were going to stay there until Friday when she returned. She was busted and stammered something unintelligible so I told her I could help her out and finish the kitchen...but I have added allot of weight to my core workout this week and am dying to try out my new abs.
> 
> Everybody wins...a mix of beta and obnoxious alpha.


Hmmm...in my house, he'd have had trouble sitting down for a few days, what with those pot handles sticking out of his arse.

LMAO!!!! :rofl:

I don't know about this alpha stuff...you be nice to me, and I'll be nice to you. After you go pick up my plugs at the pharmacy, that is.


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## CandieGirl

Caribbean Man said:


> Just couldn't help it........
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html
> 
> OP,
> These are things I've known since I was in my twenties.
> 
> *You cannot tell a woman which type of sanitary pad works for her and which ones don't and to what degree. You cannot even tell her which medication works best for her menstrual cramps.*
> Similarly, you alone know your problem, what you have tried and to what degree it has worked.
> What's important is if , and how can it WORK FOR YOU.
> This is not about them and their relationships.
> This is not about your wife either.
> Its about you taking charge of your life and relationship.


This has got to be a joke...


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## TCSRedhead

MaritimeGuy said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> I believe it's true of anyone, male or female, who has a healthy self esteem...we're attracted to people who exude confidence. After all, if a person doubts themselves all the time shouldn't we doubt them too? They know themselves better than we do.
> 
> My sense is being a "more dominant" male; disregarding her feelings, doing less around the house, taking her at your will, doing what you want only works with woman with low self esteem. They go along not out of respect...but out of fear.
> 
> The important thing is to be yourself and be proud of who you are. That's what's going to attract a quality woman.


I agree completely - it's all about the confidence, not the behaviors per se. I know what attracted me to my husband is that he exuded all sorts of confidence in what he did and said. It was extremely sexy!


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## In_The_Wind

Adex said:


> Women want the alpha, but how can you attain it? I myself don't think of myself as a pure alpha. I used to be nice and try to get along with everyone. However, over the years I learned that it's better to be more alpha for your career and in your marriage.
> 
> Some things I try to do myself that have helped me:
> 
> -Whenever there's a decision to be made, I try to decide one way or another without hesitation. Even if it's as small as where are we going to eat or what do I want to do. I decide and she follows.
> 
> -I'm not as nice to my spouse in terms of helping around the house or with my kid. I don't show her much affection. Whatever she does, I do a bit less. This makes her like me more.
> 
> My sex life has improved as a result. Any other ideas? Becoming the alpha is a learning process...


Why dont you just be yourself a pure alpha is like a sasquatch or try someone in prison. Again you dont have be not nice or helpful


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## Cre8ify

> Hmmm...in my house, he'd have had trouble sitting down for a few days, what with those pot handles sticking out of his arse.


More likely she is the one walking a little gingerly this morning. Whatever works for ya...I am confident that plugs are not my deal.


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## CandieGirl

Cre8ify said:


> More likely she is the one walking a little gingerly this morning. Whatever works for ya...I am confident that plugs are not my deal.


Then she's probably a little too 'beta'. I like a good mix of fire in my house; like I said, you be nice to me, I be nice to you. Otherwise it's just not a happy home, and neither of us want that.


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## trex

Therealbrighteyes said:


> When did you get a vagina? Until you do, just stop telling or speaking on behalf of women. I know what I believe and I sure as heck don't need some dude to tell me what I want. You are also wrong, for me at least. The simple fact that you think you know what women want and are so bold to speak for an entire sex, makes you sexual napalm to me. Tell me again about how I get turned on, I friggin dare you.


Perhaps the original post was a little over-stated, but YIKES. Having fun on the forums is one thing, but let's not throw a wet blanket over someone who's trying to do the right thing. 

And the fact of the matter is, there are many women who (unknowingly, mostly) trample boundaries and disrespect the nice guy in a very unreasonable way. While being a gentleman and defending your boundaries are not mutually exclusive, this can be a very difficult tightrope to walk, and these same women will often fight back when their men try to do the right thing.

If you are not one of these women, then I sincerely admire you, and your man should appreciate you for it.


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## Azure

Adex, I don't understand why men in society have to be one extreme or the other: either a$$holes or total whimpy losers. Why can't you have your own opinions, be confident, ambitious, strong, protect your wife and family, but still act like a gentleman, and fulfill your wife's emotional needs? 

If I was with a man who did what you do: "I don't show her much affection. Whatever she does, I do a bit less. This makes her like me more." I would HATE him!

I once dated a controlling manipulative alpha male who thought he could tell me how to live my life, what career to pursue, where I'm going to live, how often I will visit my family. I left him so quick and was so lucky to dodge that bullet. 

I am now married to a beta guy who has no confidence, passive about everything, passive aggressive because he can't even express his anger, lacks true ambition, and thinks he's the victim. I'm leaving him in 2 weeks.


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## Deejo

Azure said:


> Adex, I don't understand why men in society have to be one extreme or the other: either a$$holes or total whimpy losers. *Why can't you have your own opinions, be confident, ambitious, strong, protect your wife and family, but still act like a gentleman, and fulfill your wife's emotional needs? *
> 
> I am now married to a beta guy who has no confidence, passive about everything, passive aggressive because he can't even express his anger, lacks true ambition, and thinks he's the victim. I'm leaving him in 2 weeks.


Anyone that believes that 'being a jerk' is the goal, simply doesn't get it. I stopped trying to make them get it a very long time ago.

But ... here is what I can tell you the goal is ... exactly the words you wrote above and I bolded.

The goal is being a better, more self-aware, and accountable man ... whether your wife loves it or hates it is immaterial. On the whole, those behaviors make you a better, and more attractive man.

And I am sorry that things didn't work out for you, but respect your decision to find something that does.


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## Stonewall

I really needed to be more alpha. I wish I had recognized this 25 years ago. I could have avoided a lot of problems if I had but thats water over the dam now. I am working on it nowadays but I could never do the hold back affection thing no matter how hard I try. That is just a bridge to far for me.


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## Azure

WHY would you hold back affection? What is this bologny all you males are advocating on this site? NO NO NO.


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## johnnycomelately

Azure said:


> WHY would you hold back affection? What is this bologny all you males are advocating on this sit? NO NO NO.


Not all males. I think it is ridiculous to hold back on affection, if you can't be who you are life is not worth living.


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## Azure

sorry for saying *all* but I've been seeing it a lot in many threads on alpha vs beta men. For some reason, some of you think you need to be a jerk for a woman to like you ?!!


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## Machiavelli

Men have observed, at least the ones who were paying attention, that certain behaviors elicit certain responses from women. Deference and clinginess results in less sex, dominance and aloofness results in more sex. Bell curve. YMMV.

And a$$holes get all the girls. Quit spreading 'em for a$$holes and you girls will get less a$$hole behavior. When your reward someone for a particular behavior, you get more of it. Of course, this has to be moderated in an LTR.

I always used to laugh at guys getting dating advice from girls. It was always the same: "be yourself and be funny. We like guys who make us laugh."

Well, that sure made me laugh and the girls always giggled at what I said. None of it funny. If you've got the body, the face and the attitude, it's all funny to girls.


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## Deejo

Azure said:


> sorry for saying *all* but I've been seeing it a lot in many threads on alpha vs beta men. For some reason, some of you think you need to be a jerk for a woman to like you ?!!


No ...

You don't need to be a jerk.

You need to be less of what your partner ISN'T responding to, or finds unattractive.

So ... if you are clingy, smothering and emotionally overbearing ... you NEED to show less outward affection to balance the relationship.

If you are a selfish, emotionally closed off dope, you need to show more attention and affection.

Make sense?


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## Ten_year_hubby

Adex said:


> Whenever there's a decision to be made, I try to decide one way or another without hesitation. Even if it's as small as where are we going to eat or what do I want to do. I decide and she follows.


Please excuse my question here, but if one is a consensus decision maker does that mean they're not an alpha?


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## Cre8ify

Absolutely not alpha. Decide, go forth boldly, if anyone follows fine, if not, whatever.


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## trex

Azure said:


> sorry for saying *all* but I've been seeing it a lot in many threads on alpha vs beta men. For some reason, some of you think you need to be a jerk for a woman to like you ?!!


Let me ask you this...

Imagine your dating/married to someone who is nice, generous, confident, successful, has a plan, keeps himself fit, and cleans up well when he needs to. You don't treat this guy with respect and love. You push his buttons, try to get a reaction out him, test his boundaries, pick on his faults, and leave him sexually frustrated to boot. Maybe you don't even realize that you're doing this to him (or you do and don't make it a priority to change).

Who's the jerk in this scenario?

Obviously, this is hypothetical. I don't know you, and you may be the rare case that doesn't do this. Guys aren't perfect, either.

In many circles, it is just accepted that in order to be treated with respect, love, and some intimacy, we need to be tougher with our SO's than we feel we should need to or would like. As far as I'm concerned, that means being more of a jerk than I'd want to. 

It doesn't get better if you try harder to please. I'd argue that the difference between a nice guy and a doormat is that the doormat is the one trying harder.

The alternative is to leave. But then, where do you go? The odds are not in our favor that we'll find someone significantly better. That leaves being single.


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## donny64

Therealbrighteyes said:


> When did you get a vagina? Until you do, just stop telling or speaking on behalf of women. I know what I believe and I sure as heck don't need some dude to tell me what I want. You are also wrong, for me at least. The simple fact that you think you know what women want and are so bold to speak for an entire sex, makes you sexual napalm to me. Tell me again about how I get turned on, I friggin dare you.


The thing is, he isn't too far off in SOME or even many situations. There are simply just a lot of women (and men) out there who are not very self aware, and don't understand WHY they're losing attraction for their S/O. But it's plastered on these boards every single day with the "HD husband, LD wife" threads. I believe that these "LD" women, when they tell their husbands that if they'd "do more around the house, I'm too tired" or "if you'd just leave me alone and stop asking about it, maybe I'd get in the mood" think that this is what the problem is. In some instances, this is right (i.e. a lazy husband who doesn't help around the house or a pesky sexaholic that won't stop pestering). But oftentimes that's simply not the case. There's a woman there who hasn't had sex with her husband in months, the same husband that "does all the cooking", "does all the cleaning" because she said she was "tired and exhausted". Gives her back rubs, and receives no affection in return. Hasn't asked her for sex in months and *nothing* changes. 

Some times these tired, exhausted women are out having affairs, screwing the hell out of their affair partners, and doing things they haven't done with their h's in years! Why is she not too tired or feeling pressured to have sex with this other man? Why is she willingly giving him bj's at every turn when she hasn't offered her husband one in years? Why the difference?

It's about attraction, sexual tension, and excitement. And a doormat man simply does not supply that to a woman. There may be other or no problems, but one thing is for sure, if she's not attracted, you aren't "gettin' any". And I don't believe that a good number of women when they're going through this understand it. Or at least are afraid to (or just don't want to) say so. All they "know" is they don't feel attracted to their partner, they start to see him as a burndensome room mate, and they have no interest in sex with them. They THINK they're too tired, but that is often not the case. Didn't stop her from having sex when you were dating or for the first year of the relationship when you'd party all night, have sex, and go to work on a few hours sleep. So why now, and to such an extent that this goes on for MONTHS or in some cases YEARS? In all that time, this woman was not ever rested? Sure she was. But that wasn't the problem. 

I don't much like this whole "alpha up" description. I prefer the "man up" or possibly "find your balls" analogy. It's not about being an "alpha prick", but it is about not being a doormat, servant, maid, and massuese all wrapped up into one, or forsaking your own interests to better "serve her". It's about not being such a "nice guy" that you're forsaking your own needs and wants just to kiss the azz of another, and getting no appreciation (or much of anything else) in return.

Such a recurring theme with "nice guys" is that yes, they are pizzed off. They do feel stood upon or neglected. And they won't say or do anything about it out of fear. Fear that he's not good enough for her, he should feel lucky to have her, and she'll leave at the slightest provocation should he stand up for himself, or let her know her behavior is not acceptable. And, I don't know many women who want a guy like that or is even remotely attracted to it.

It's not about being a d!ck. It is about not being a doormat and standing up for yourself. Big difference. And IMO, this all starts with the first few times a woman gives a man some unreasonable chit, and he takes it with a whimper, or reacts poorly to it, instead of calmly and directly nipping it in the bud as soon as it starts and letting her know that behavior is not appreciated, and won't be accepted. The more it happens, the more resentful everyone becomes, and things snowball out of control. Whereas had the guy "manned up", "alpha'd up" or whatever you want to call it, and calmly dealt with it from the start, it wouldn't be a problem at all. And she'd at least respect him for standing up for himself. 

Many of these traits are the same ones displayed by "bad boys" (aka "the pr!cks"). Difference being, the bad boy comes with a whole other set of issues. If "nice guys" would just pick up some of these good traits of self confidence, self respect, and not letting themselves get walked all over, while retaining the better parts of their "good guy" side, they'd be much, much better off. And their wives would be happier.


----------



## Caribbean Man

donny64 said:


> *It's not about being a d!ck. It is about not being a doormat and standing up for yourself. Big difference. *


:iagree:

But donny,
There's something my deceased grandfather who was a WWII veteran told me long ago.
As long as you KNOW the difference,
Never argue with people who DON'T know. Especially those who are not even in a position to know.

The OP asked a simple question, and FOUR pages later, absolutely none of those who criticized his attempts to improve himself could come up with ONE suggestion.

Why?

Maybe they don't know?

If it WORKS in your life and your relationships.
That's all that matters.


----------



## Caribbean Man

CandieGirl said:


> This has got to be a joke...


Really?

What's so funny about women defining themselves and what works for them ,and a man defining himself and what works for him?

What's so funny about a man who decides to stand up for himself , and not allow an insecure , BPD control freak to bully him?


----------



## costa200

Machiavelli said:


> Well, I got my first one when I was 11. And that was just the beginning. So I know a lot about getting vaginas.


:lol:

You stole my line but i won't hold a grudge over it. 

Well, we have our proverbial women saying that they want "nice guys" and whatever. But there is a surefire way to actually read about what makes women hot. 

Their own sort of porn if you like. Their romances and erotic literature. Who are the studs in those? What are the types? what kind of characters rule their fantasies? 

You have your dangerous men, rogues, pirates, kidnapping sheiks, bikers, powerful businessmen, and these days, vampires and werewolves. Yeah... So where is that romantic fool with the roses in all this? 

Ah yes, he is that nice guy who serves as an intellectual ***** for the girl when she gets her heart broken by yet another alpha dude.

Lets be honest here ladies, in high school, did you get wet for the broad shouldered hiperpopular sports jock or the easy going library geek who would do all your biddings. 

As much as you SAY you want this and that, observation and experience tells otherwise. And personally i'm basically walking proof of this. As a young teen i was often friend-zoned until i found out i was acting like and idiot trying to cater to women hoping to fall in their good graces. Only when i discovered that i had to actually do the opposite and give them the "you're not all that" did i manage to get royally going. 

I didn't become a "jerk". But i did become one of those guys who would basically tell a girl that i'm more than she can handle, that i'll probably be having sex with her friend in the next week if she doesn't show signs of wanting me. The whole "i really don't give a damn". And yes, ****y bastard extreme! Sexual innuendo going and no i'm not a friend! Don't even call me that! 

It works. It just does! So excuse me if i take comments of women about this subject with a grain of salt. You may be and exception, but with 3,5 billion of you in this planet i don't think you will make a dent in my odds.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Ever observed on TAM, whenever the word " Alpha" is mentioned a lot of women instantly get all riled up and angry?

Ever noticed whenever the term " Strong Independent Woman" is mentioned, they all nod their heads in agreement?

So Alpha traits either don't exist or are undesirable, but being a strong independent woman is highly recommended.

Actually there's room for both in a relationship.
But it takes a certain level of emotional maturity to see that.


----------



## lovelygirl

Machiavelli said:


> "be yourself and be funny. We like guys who make us laugh."


I never understood this big deal about guys being funny and make the girls laugh.
I mean...it was never on my list to find a guy who should necessarily make me laugh all day and be funny all day.
[Make me smile is something different, though.]
Let's be clear, It's not that I don't want to laugh ..but a guy being funny all the time, especially on the first date, sounds like a clown to me.


----------



## jaquen

How the phuck does one "try" to be "Alpha" (whatever the hell that means).

Be a man. I can't wrap my mind around being a "servant" to a woman. I treat my wife well, because she's my equal, soulmate, and the love of my life. It sounds unfathomable to me that I'd ever purposefully decide to NOT do something because I want to appear "Alpha" to my woman. Give me a ****ing break.

Just be a man. Treat your woman well, and with respect, but don't sacrifice your own voice, and self respect, for her. 

Being "Alpha" just seems to me to be about self respect. It doesn't have jack to do with how nice, or not, you are to a woman. It's about being who the hell you are, authentically, and owning the hell out of that. And if a woman doesn't want, crave, and desire the real, authentic you, than NEXT her behind and find a woman who does.


----------



## norajane

lovelygirl said:


> I never understood this big deal about guys being funny and make the girls laugh.
> I mean...it was never on my list to find a guy who should necessarily make me laugh all day and be funny all day.
> [Make me smile is something different, though.]
> Let's be clear, It's not that I don't want to laugh ..but a guy being funny all the time, especially on the first date, sounds like a clown to me.


Funny means guys who are clever and witty and charming - not clowns. Clever and witty is intelligence, not buffoonery.

Funny means he is a guy you can be comfortable with, have fun with, and can share inside jokes. Funny means he can eek a smile out of you even when you feel like the worst crap.

Laughing together means sharing a sense of humor and perspective on life.

THOSE are the guys I fell for in high school, college, and ever since. Not alphas, betas, or whateveretas.

And FYI, if you get girls when you act like this...


> As a young teen i was often friend-zoned until i found out i was acting like and idiot trying to cater to women hoping to fall in their good graces. Only when i discovered that i had to actually do the opposite and give them the "you're not all that" did i manage to get royally going.
> 
> I didn't become a "jerk". *But i did become one of those guys who would basically tell a girl that i'm more than she can handle, that i'll probably be having sex with her friend in the next week if she doesn't show signs of wanting me.* The whole "i really don't give a damn". And yes, ****y bastard extreme! Sexual innuendo going and no i'm not a friend! Don't even call me that!
> 
> It works. It just does!


... I would question the quality of those women and those relationships.


----------



## jaquen

Machiavelli said:


> Men have observed, at least the ones who were paying attention, that certain behaviors elicit certain responses from women. Deference and clinginess results in less sex, dominance and aloofness results in more sex. Bell curve. YMMV.


No, putting up with less sex results in less sex. There are lots of guys, including plenty here on TAM, who are getting "less sex" without any of the overt "Beta" traits that people villainize around here.

If a man is bartering, begging, and groveling, and changing his essential nature, all for sex with the woman who vowed to have sex with him, he's lost the war. How "Alpha" is it to pretend to be someone you're not all in an attempt to wet your wife's panties? Under those conditions you are STILL doing it for her, so in this whole battle she "wins" anyway.

Some men are genuinely nice guys. They're not overly nice, or doormats, because women have made them so; that is who they are naturally. If they're with a woman who can't LOVE that, crave that, and desire that, then he needs to collect his balls and leave. 

I think this whole alpha vs beta debate comes down to a ton of men and women who are essentially incompatible.


----------



## donny64

Again, some are getting riled up about the "alpha" thing, and believing it is "pretending to be something you're not". Quite the reverse is true. It is mostly the "nice guys", who are too "beta" or "omega" (don't like those terms myself, but who essentially have given up their balls) who put up with b.s. behavior from women *who are not the genuine ones*. They act so out of fear. And insecurity. No confidence. They're upset, but they'll say nothing. They think they're being treated like chit, but do nothing about it. Their women hen peck them and drive them up a wall, but they say nothing. And the anger and resentment builds in them. But they're afraid to act. Because she's "pretty" and a "catch". And they're afraid to anger her. Or call her on her crap even when SHE knows she's out of line. And it affects the relationship. They whine and cry about how the "jerks" get all the women when their women dump them because they've become insecure, jealous, angry, bitter, clingy and controlling.

Don't confuse "nice guy" with "good guy", or "Alpha" or "manning up" with "jerk". "Manning up" often means nothing more than to STOP being a disingenuous fake! Stop trying to manipulate your wife by ACTING nice towards her in order to get sex when you KNOW she doesn't deserve to be treated nice. Stop kissing her azz when you're so pizzed at her because she hasn't slept with you in months that you could chew through the kitchen cabinet door. Stop treating her nice when you're doing so WITH AN AGENDA! Treat her nice when she deserves it. Call her on her crap when she doesn't. It is really that simple. Be genuine, and let her make an INFORMED choice on if you are the guy for her or not. Newsflash, if you are being genuine and respecting yourself, you've got a huge step up over the guys who don't.

For every woman here complaining about this whole "alpha vs. nice guy" thing, is a woman who has had to chase off a guy who was way too needy. Way to clingy. Way too insecure. Way too pressuring. Even though he was "way nice".


----------



## jaquen

Incessant, endless prattle about "manning up" and becoming "alpha" seems to be anything but.

Just saying.

You either get it, or you don't. You can't "try" to be masculine, confident, and assured. You either get to the point where you've lost enough at the hands of your doormat status to make a genuine change, or you don't.


----------



## Cre8ify

> I think this whole alpha vs beta debate comes down to a ton of men and women who are essentially incompatible


You might be onto something there and thank you for adding some context. As a lifelong nice guy who has lived decades of sexless existence, I can divorce and start over or play these games. The games have gotten me more intimacy in 2012 than I would have accumulated since the mid 1990's. Also, if there was an example of someone who did have some natural "alpha" tendencies that were domesticated, that was me. I always tried to be sweeter, more considerate, more attendant to her needs...it is way better to keep her guessing and respectful.

And before all the games, she was just not that into me. Whether we stick together or not, I needed that to be fixed. Some of us have our reasons.


----------



## Machiavelli

jaquen said:


> Incessant, endless prattle about "manning up" and becoming "alpha" seems to be anything but.
> 
> Just saying.
> 
> *You either get it, or you don't. You can't "try" to be masculine, confident, and assured.* You either get to the point where you've lost enough at the hands of your doormat status to make a genuine change, or you don't.


Some guys need to fake it until they make it, but women are the ones who pick the winners and the losers.


----------



## Machiavelli

norajane said:


> Funny means guys who are clever and witty and charming - not clowns. Clever and witty is intelligence, not buffoonery.


The point is that if a guy is good looking, built, and has a little confidence and charm (either real or fake) the girls are going to laugh at anything that comes out of your mouth, no matter how inane. On the other hand, there are fat and bald comedians who can't get a laugh from women unless they are on stage. Even then it's not the "ohh, you're so fascinating, please ask me out" laugh and gaze that the first guy gets.


----------



## jaquen

Machiavelli said:


> Some guys need to fake it until they make it, but women are the ones who pick the winners and the losers.


So to the guys who fake it till they make it...

Does that actually work for you? I mean in the long term?


----------



## Cre8ify

My wife actually initiates half the time (which I don't think happened in our first 26 years) and realizes we are a better couple because of my "reinvention". I am not regaining some sort of lost passion, this is all new territory. I can't think of why this is not sustainable as I like having my stones back and won't ever give them up again.


----------



## jaquen

Cre8ify said:


> My wife actually initiates half the time (which I don't think happened in our first 26 years) and realizes we are a better couple because of my "reinvention". I am not regaining some sort of lost passion, this is all new territory. I can't think of why this is not sustainable as I like having my stones back and won't ever give them up again.


I suppose it's just very difficult for me to wrap my head around staying in a sexless marriage for a year, much less decades. That, to me, isn't a matter of "alpha" or "beta"; that's just incredible self disrespect. 

But all that matters is that it's working for you. That's the key to all of this; the catch phrases, cliches, debates, and theories don't mean jack unless they work. And for you, and your marriage, it seems to be working.


----------



## Machiavelli

jaquen said:


> So to the guys who fake it till they make it...
> 
> Does that actually work for you? I mean in the long term?



Watch this. It's only a small part of what we're talking about.


----------



## Conrad

Machiavelli said:


> Watch this. It's only a small part of what we're talking about.


I always appreciate the way you traffic in reality.


----------



## jaquen

Machiavelli said:


> Watch this. It's only a small part of what we're talking about.


Yes, I've seen similar experiments before.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Ok,

Rosie and her boyfriend Joe have been together for 2 years. Rosie had put on some weight and lately she feels insecure. Joe treats her like shyt He disrespects her , but she loves him more than anything else. Joe no longer has sex with her, and ogles other women even when she's around.
Is there anything Rosie could do to get Joe to respect her and treat her like a woman?
Yes.
She could;
1) Loose some weight.
2) Work on her self esteem.
3)Give herself a makeover
4)Completely ignore Joe aka " the 180."
5)" Man up ," and Stop taking disrespect from Joe,

She is not doing this so that Joe will respect her, she is doing it because she needs it. So, if Joe continues to treat her badly , she is confident enough to dump him and MOVE ON.
After that dysfunctional relationship, having done some work on herself, she is now n a better position to demand respect and set proper boundaries in her new relationship.
Rosie is now a stronger, more independent thinking woman.

Now all we have to do is switch the roles, place Rosie in Joe's position and vice versa.
So,
Joe and his girlfriend Rosie have been together for the past 2 years.
Joe has put on some weight. Rosie treats him like shyt. She disrespects him, but he loves he more than anything else. Rosie no longer had sex with Joe, and she openly flirts with other men even when he is around.
Is there anything Joe could do, to get Rosie to respect him and treat him like a man?

See?
Even women do it.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Cre8ify said:


> My wife actually initiates half the time (which I don't think happened in our first 26 years) and realizes we are a better couple because of my "reinvention". I am not regaining some sort of lost passion, this is all new territory. I can't think of why this is not sustainable as I like having my stones back and won't ever give them up again.


Well,
My wife initiates even more than me and she is very aggressive in bed.
But it was always like that , even in the beginning.
There was always mutual respect, and she is a strong willed, independent woman. My wife had her own house , and her own bank accounts, even before we got together.
To me, there s nothing sexier than a strong independent woman who desires me.
She knows my needs and what drives me, and she does her best to fulfill and support. No stupid games. We never had that in our relationship.
But I've been with women before her, only drama!
Just never wasted too much time with them, I simply moved on.

Left up to me, I will tell every man who find himself in a relationship where he's being disrespected by his partner, to move on.
But I know it's not that easy for some guys, hence the
" man up / Alpha " approach.


----------



## Adex

I just read through all the posts. It's funny how most of the women do not agree with this alpha business because it usually means the man is in charge and the woman follows.

To me, being decisive goes hand in hand with being confident. In my career, I'm in my early 30s but am in a higher position to tell older men and women workers what to do. I've learned when asked a question or the best course of action in problem situations, to give an answer confidently whether it's right or wrong. I've carried that into my marriage as well.

I've realized to gain the respect in my career and my marriage, I have to be the leader, in charge, and the alpha. I do believe it's something that can be learned and worked on, because I've done it myself. It's not just something that's in your personality. Your environment and your way of thinking can change you to be the man you need to be.


----------



## jaquen

Caribbean Man said:


> Left up to me, I will tell every man who find himself in a relationship where he's being disrespected by his partner, to move on.
> But I know it's not that easy for some guys, hence the
> " man up / Alpha " approach.


And there in is a fundamental dispute I have with this "manning up" business, within the confines of marriage.

It supposes that I have put myself in a position where my wife has cut down, or cut off sex. She's blatantly disrespecting me. She seldom, if ever, initiates. The thrill is gone, and I've become little more than a companion and roommate.

If my wife devolved to the point of treating me like most of the people I see on TAM trying to "alpha up" are getting treated, she wouldn't be worth the effort. I'm not going to waste a single moment trying to become alpha for a worthless piece of garbage like that.

The entire concept seems to take female responsibility, and accountability, out of the equation. The wife gets to treat you like crap, year after year, and her reward is you putting in all this effort to "man up" just to get into her drawers and wash yourself a few less dishes. I don't get that. So yes, my default likewise is to cut her loose.


----------



## Machiavelli

jaquen said:


> *The entire concept seems to take female responsibility, and accountability,* out of the equation. The wife gets to treat you like crap, year after year, and her reward is you putting in all this effort to "man up" just to get into her drawers and wash yourself a few less dishes. I don't get that. So yes, my default likewise is to cut her loose.


Female accountability? Now that's an intriguing concept. Take a look at this clip.


----------



## barcafan

I don't know why you guys keep trying to teach deer how to hunt. It's not going to go anywhere...


----------



## Gaia

Ok I just have to add this....


The only reason I get riled up about the mentioning of alpha, beta, omega around here is because I believe it is being misused. It seems a lot equate being alpha to being an uncaring, womanizing, tyrant and beta to being a caring, sweet, ect. I am of the opinion that confidence, strength, nerve are not the only traits of an alpha male. I believe true alphas have empathetic traits such as being sweet, kind, loyal, ect as well. 


If we are using wolves as an analogy.... the alpha male does not treat his mate... which is the alpha female... as a lesser being. They are in fact equals and no she isn't his bytch of the week... since wolves tend to mate for life. She in turn does not flaunt around with other males nor does he breed with oother females.


This brings me to this point... I believe an alpha male... if you want to us that term... is secure and confident in himself that he does not need the attentions of other females to feel good about himself. 





Again this is me explaining my POV and why I get a tad riled up about the alpha/ beta thing. Oh btw... I've dismissed men who blabbered about how they would sleep with my best friend or neighboor. So no it does not work for all women. If a man feels the need to tell me that... I don't even give him the time of day.


----------



## Gunthar

Deejo said:


> No ...
> 
> You don't need to be a jerk.
> 
> You need to be less of what your partner ISN'T responding to, or finds unattractive.
> 
> So ... if you are clingy, smothering and emotionally overbearing ... you NEED to show less outward affection to balance the relationship.
> 
> If you are a selfish, emotionally closed off dope, you need to show more attention and affection.
> 
> Make sense?


:iagree:

No person is perfect just as no relationship is in perfect balance 24/7/365.

When something becomes seriously out of balance then it needs to be addressed.......describe it however you want.....being too beta....being too alpha......who cares what analogy you use to describe it, the challenge is in trying to describe it that makes sense to you and allows you to work towards re-balancing the relationship.

BOTH partners then have the responsibility to work TOGETHER to regain balance. 

Staying out of balance too long and/or BOTH partners not working on regaining balance results in visits to TAM wondering what the [email protected] went wrong. 

Seems simple enough....


----------



## lovelygirl

norajane said:


> Funny means guys who are clever and witty and charming - not clowns. Clever and witty is intelligence, not buffoonery.


I have to disagree with you . Being funny doesn't necessarily mean you are clever and witty. Funny doesn't mean being charming.

There is stupid humor,
intelligent humor
sarcastic humor ... and so on .
It really depends if your and his sense of humor are compatible. 




> Funny means he is a guy you can be comfortable with, have fun with, and can share inside jokes.


Sure. But not a guy you necessarily fall in love with because of his humor.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Gunthar said:


> :iagree:
> 
> No person is perfect just as no relationship is in perfect balance 24/7/365.
> 
> _When something becomes seriously out of balance then it needs to be addressed.......describe it however you want.....being too beta....being too alpha......who cares what analogy you use to describe it, the challenge is in trying to describe it that makes sense to you and allows you to work towards re-balancing the relationship._
> 
> BOTH partners then have the responsibility to work TOGETHER to regain balance.
> 
> *Staying out of balance too long and/or BOTH partners not working on regaining balance results in visits to TAM wondering what the [email protected] went wrong. *
> 
> Seems simple enough....


:iagree:

Quite obviously, either a lot of people still don't know what the [email protected] went wrong, or they are not prepared to accept that there is something that they, MALE or FEMALE _can do_ about it.

If the OP was female , the pendulum would still be heading in one direction.
There would have been lots of ((( hugs))) , expressions of solidarity and so forth, which is very good!

So then why the hating?
Because the op is a man?
I hope not.


----------



## Mavash.

jaquen said:


> If my wife devolved to the point of treating me like most of the people I see on TAM trying to "alpha up" are getting treated, she wouldn't be worth the effort. I'm not going to waste a single moment trying to become alpha for a worthless piece of garbage like that.
> 
> The entire concept seems to take female responsibility, and accountability, out of the equation. The wife gets to treat you like crap, year after year, and her reward is you putting in all this effort to "man up" just to get into her drawers and wash yourself a few less dishes. I don't get that. So yes, my default likewise is to cut her loose.


On some level I agree with you. Just cut them loose and be done with it.

But here's what I believe. I think that's the easy way out and you will learn nothing. Furthermore you will go on and let some other woman do it to you again.

It takes TWO to make a marriage fail. It's not so simple to say the man is too beta. You as the man chose this woman so you are just as to blame as she is. You were the one who allowed her behavior to stoop to an all time low by approving her treating you like crap. You must first lie down before someone can walk all over you. So to point fingers and call her a worthless piece of garbage is blameshifting at it's best.

It's true maybe she is a POS but you married her. :scratchhead:


----------



## Caribbean Man

Mavash. said:


> It takes TWO to make a marriage fail. It's not so simple to say the man is too beta. * You as the man chose this woman so you are just as to blame as she is. You were the one who allowed her behavior to stoop to an all time low by approving her treating you like crap. You must first lie down before someone can walk all over you. So to point fingers and call her a worthless piece of garbage is blameshifting at it's best.*
> 
> It's true maybe she is a POS but you married her. :scratchhead:


^^^^^^^^^^
FINALLY!:smthumbup:


----------



## Cre8ify

Thank you M! And once you married her and have a subsequent epiphany...now what. You just own it because of vows...and kids...and the whole rest of it works.


----------



## lovelygirl

Caribbean Man said:


> Ok,
> 
> Rosie and her boyfriend Joe have been together for 2 years. Rosie had put on some weight and lately she feels insecure. Joe treats her like shyt He disrespects her , but she loves him more than anything else. Joe no longer has sex with her, and ogles other women even when she's around.
> Is there anything Rosie could do to get Joe to respect her and treat her like a woman?
> Yes.
> She could;
> *1) Loose some weight.*
> 2) Work on her self esteem.
> *3)Give herself a makeover*
> 4)Completely ignore Joe aka " the 180."
> 5)" Man up ," and Stop taking disrespect from Joe,


Really? Why would she do all this just for someone who disrespects her because she gained some weight? 

I wouldn't really take the effort to do things for someone who bases his treatment about me on my weight gain/loss.

Anyone like Joe who is as superficial or more is not worth fighting for. 

I wold certainly take care of my health and dignity but not before dumping Joe.


----------



## Cre8ify

Lovely-You are just pulling out the physical parts and criticizing them as shallow. Add the rest of it in--improving confidence and state of mind, taking ownership, practicing self love. These are things that can benefit anyone...as individuals. These things also happen to look good on us to our SO. CarMan had it, Rosie needed to do this for Rosie and once she does her viewpoint changes and her world opens up.


----------



## Caribbean Man

lovelygirl said:


> *Really? Why would she do all this just for someone who disrespects her because she gained some weight? *
> 
> I wouldn't really take the effort to do things for someone who bases his treatment about me on my weight gain/loss.
> 
> Anyone like Joe who is as superficial or more is not worth fighting for.
> 
> I wold certainly take care of my health and dignity but not before dumping Joe.


She is NOT doing it _for_ Joe.
She is doing it for_ herself._
Here's an excerpt from the third paragraph;

".......*She is not doing this so that Joe will respect her, she is doing it because she needs it. So, if Joe continues to treat her badly , she is confident enough to dump him and MOVE ON.*
After that dysfunctional relationship, having done some work on herself, she is now n a better position to demand respect and set proper boundaries in her new relationship.
Rosie is now a stronger, more independent thinking woman..."

Its about taking responsibility for oneself, and rejecting disrespectful behaviour from your partner.
So that the next time around she doesn't make the same mistake when selecting a man.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

Caribbean Man said:


> Ok,
> 
> Rosie and her boyfriend Joe have been together for 2 years. Rosie had put on some weight and lately she feels insecure. Joe treats her like shyt He disrespects her , but she loves him more than anything else. Joe no longer has sex with her, and ogles other women even when she's around.
> Is there anything Rosie could do to get Joe to respect her and treat her like a woman?
> Yes.
> She could;
> 1) Loose some weight.
> 2) Work on her self esteem.
> 3)Give herself a makeover
> 4)Completely ignore Joe aka " the 180."
> 5)" Man up ," and Stop taking disrespect from Joe,
> 
> She is not doing this so that Joe will respect her, she is doing it because she needs it. So, if Joe continues to treat her badly , she is confident enough to dump him and MOVE ON.
> After that dysfunctional relationship, having done some work on herself, she is now n a better position to demand respect and set proper boundaries in her new relationship.
> Rosie is now a stronger, more independent thinking woman.
> 
> Now all we have to do is switch the roles, place Rosie in Joe's position and vice versa.
> So,
> Joe and his girlfriend Rosie have been together for the past 2 years.
> Joe has put on some weight. Rosie treats him like shyt. She disrespects him, but he loves he more than anything else. Rosie no longer had sex with Joe, and she openly flirts with other men even when he is around.
> Is there anything Joe could do, to get Rosie to respect him and treat him like a man?
> 
> See?
> Even women do it.


I would fully support Rosie's decision to do everything but number 4 on your list. I believe all these things, particularly as she's doing them for herself and not to get something in return from Joe, are going to make her more attractive to Joe. When a person loves and respects themselves it's attractive. 

My perception of the so called "alpha" position is the corollary of this. Rosie fears losing Joe so starts doing more for him and accepting poorer treatment. Joe acts "alpha" by being more aloof which only cause her to work that much harder to keep him. So yes his "alpha" behaviour has been successful in obtaining what he wants from Rosie...if that's what your definition of success is.


----------



## Mavash.

lovelygirl said:


> Anyone like Joe who is as superficial or more is not worth fighting for.
> 
> I wold certainly take care of my health and dignity but not before dumping Joe.


Many men are superficial. Go read his needs her needs. Having an attractive wife is one of men's top 5 needs. 

And if she does all those things and Joe still treats her like crap THEN she leaves but not before.

Again it takes TWO. Rarely do these type problems happen in a vacuum somebody pushed over the first domino. And to fix it somebody must be willing to put forth the effort. Problem is everyone wants it to be their spouse not them.


----------



## lovelygirl

Mavash. said:


> Many men are superficial. Go read his needs her needs. Having an attractive wife is one of men's top 5 needs.
> 
> And if she does all those things and Joe still treats her like crap THEN she leaves but not before.
> 
> Again it takes TWO. Rarely do these type problems happen in a vacuum somebody pushed over the first domino. And to fix it somebody must be willing to put forth the effort. Problem is everyone wants it to be their spouse not them.


Attraction is subjective. You can be overweight and still be attractive. 

It all comes down to how your spouse views you.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Is that success or manipulation?


----------



## Open up now let it all go

Not trying to diss you but if I don't find someone attractive from an objective point of view... I'm never going to find it attractive no matter how much I'll try to tell myself that I do.


----------



## Mavash.

lovelygirl said:


> Attraction is subjective. You can be overweight and still be attractive.
> 
> It all comes down to how your spouse views you.


Agree. In his needs her needs he says a wife should somewhat resemble the woman he married.


----------



## lovelygirl

Open up now let it all go said:


> Not trying to diss you but if I don't find someone attractive from an objective point of view... I'm never going to find it attractive no matter how much I'll try to tell myself that I do.


objective?

What I find attractive might seem ugly to you.

How is that objective?


----------



## costa200

Machiavelli said:


> Watch this. It's only a small part of what we're talking about.


I like how these experiences basically demonstrate the difference between what women *say *and *reality*.


----------



## Open up now let it all go

Sorry - I didn't mean objective as in for everybody but in objective for me. As in if I'd see the person without knowing anything about them. Call me shallow but that's just how I work.


----------



## donny64

EnjoliWoman said:


> Is that success or manipulation?


If you're referring to success in regards to guys "manning up" and as a result getting a better, more attentive wife out of the deal, it is success. It's not "manipulation" when a guy stops putting up with poor spousal behavior, and the offending spouse suddenly realizes they might want to get their chit together because they're finally being called on their laziness, lack of effort, and complacency.



> I suppose it's just very difficult for me to wrap my head around staying in a sexless marriage for a year, much less decades. That, to me, isn't a matter of "alpha" or "beta"; that's just incredible self disrespect.
> 
> But all that matters is that it's working for you. That's the key to all of this; the catch phrases, cliches, debates, and theories don't mean jack unless they work. And for you, and your marriage, it seems to be working.


I concur 100%. Putting up with that is incredibly disrespectful to self. And it often shows a lack of confidence and self value. Many men did not start out this way. They got this way over the course of a long marriage where they morphed into some "nice guy doormat". Gave up all his hobbies. Doesn't go out with pals. Puts up with incessent nagging and critisism, even when it's unwarranted. All in the name of keeping the woman and keeping the peace. As a result, they lose both either figuratively or literally.



> And there in is a fundamental dispute I have with this "manning up" business, within the confines of marriage.
> 
> It supposes that I have put myself in a position where my wife has cut down, or cut off sex. She's blatantly disrespecting me. She seldom, if ever, initiates. The thrill is gone, and I've become little more than a companion and roommate.
> 
> If my wife devolved to the point of treating me like most of the people I see on TAM trying to "alpha up" are getting treated, she wouldn't be worth the effort. I'm not going to waste a single moment trying to become alpha for a worthless piece of garbage like that.
> 
> The entire concept seems to take female responsibility, and accountability, out of the equation. The wife gets to treat you like crap, year after year, and her reward is you putting in all this effort to "man up" just to get into her drawers and wash yourself a few less dishes. I don't get that. So yes, my default likewise is to cut her loose.


Spot on. A guy with self worth would never put up with that. I know I certainly won't, and I see more than a few guys around here who also would not. But where I disagree is about where it takes female responsability out of the equation. To me, if you have self worth and won't put up with horrible behaviors, that's exactly what all this "manning up" business is about. Not about manipulation, or even about "rewarding" her by trying to get into her drawers, but about rewarding yourself by having a happier life by stopping putting up with crap you don't want to, and making her take responsability for her actions or inaction (instead of being a doormat and rugsweeping it). And once you get there and do that, it is then entirely up to her if she likes the new dynamic and situation, and she can chose to "woman up", deal with it and "up her game" in the relationship as well, or decide for herself if this is not what she wants. But she should stop expecting that at least that particular man will stop putting up with behaviors of hers he does not like. And that is every man's (and woman's) right to do so...to not tolerate things that make you unhappy, or someone who treats you with blatant disrespect and indifference.

Some guys had it and lost it over the course of years. Some guys never had it to start. All this "faking it" and "false confidence" which seems to be discussed here is not much more than a path to finding true confidence. Face it, the first time someone jumps out of an airplane, they're not very confident. They're scared chitless and nervous. But after doing it for a while, they become confident and have proven something to themselves. They BECOME something different. They're no longer the "leg" infantryman walking below the C-130's talking about how they'd like to be an Airborne soldier and all that comes with it, they ARE the Airborne soldier jumping out of the plane, and it is now second nature to them. They are someone else than who they were before they took that first, unsure, nervous leap out of the tail of the plane.

What I find funny, is if this were on the woman's forum, and the discussion was about women "finding their t!ts" and "womaning up" because the roles were reversed, and she was in a relationship with an uncaring, unattentive, unappreciative, lazy man, there'd be "you go girl"(s) until the forum ran out of freakin' bandwith.


----------



## Gaia

Finding their tits... womaning up.... I would just laugh.... that sounds worse then a man finding his balls imo... lol. Then again I don't think exactly like other people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mavash.

Gaia said:


> Finding their tits... womaning up.... I would just laugh.... that sounds worse then a man finding his balls imo... lol. Then again I don't think exactly like other people.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just say I've learned to love myself. I love my husband yes but I love me more. So that means I won't settle, won't take his excuses, won't let him convince me I deserve anything less than the best he has to offer. I'm willing to give him my best and I expect the same in return otherwise I'm going to have to rethink our relationship. No I'd probably not divorce him over it but I certainly would quit giving 100%. KWIM?


----------



## Machiavelli

barcafan said:


> I don't know why you guys keep trying to teach deer how to hunt. It's not going to go anywhere...


And that right there is why only about 30% of the adult males of each generation prior to the high middle ages were able to pass on their genes. The combination of female hypergamy and the cluelessness/disinterest/ineptitude of the typical male weeded out the bottom 70% of the male gene pool.


----------



## Halien

Adex said:


> I just read through all the posts. It's funny how most of the women do not agree with this alpha business because it usually means the man is in charge and the woman follows.
> 
> To me, being decisive goes hand in hand with being confident. In my career, I'm in my early 30s but am in a higher position to tell older men and women workers what to do. I've learned when asked a question or the best course of action in problem situations, to give an answer confidently whether it's right or wrong. I've carried that into my marriage as well.
> 
> I've realized to gain the respect in my career and my marriage, I have to be the leader, in charge, and the alpha. I do believe it's something that can be learned and worked on, because I've done it myself. It's not just something that's in your personality. Your environment and your way of thinking can change you to be the man you need to be.


I think that there is an inherent risk when you begin to incorporate your wife's actions or response into your own journey into becoming the man you want to be. I think that you are trying to avoid that, but it might be worth discussing. Trust me, find the inner man within you, and most folks will follow. Same goes for women, also, if they seek that inner strength to define who they are. 

Keep the focus on who you want to be as a man. Most will want to be respected, loved by those we love, and be the kind of person who makes a difference. Keep the focus here, and many in your life will follow. 

Some people in my life describe me as strong-minded, focused, and alpha, while we actually use different terminology. But I want my wife to feel loved and respected, while having reason to feel the same for me. Frankly, she's smarter than me in some areas of life. I'm no longer intimidated by that. But as a man who grew up in a mixed culture, around strong native american family in my earliest years, it was important to me to follow the better path, avoiding the traits that feed weakness, fear and inaction. If a new problem enters our life, I will seek the advice of my wife, but she knows that I can't stand inaction. My motto is to move forward. A large portion of the time, she nods and I just move us forward. She says that she responds to that leadership, but only when it is carried by respect and love for her, which sometimes means following her wisdom.

I'm just suggesting that you keep the focus on the type of man you want to be. Don't measure it by her position behind you. As Deejo mentioned, make your relationship the measure, the emotional satisfaction in the relationship, but not her response to each and every thing you do. Do YOU make her life more exciting, fulfilling, and content? Beta is all about getting tripped up into worrying about her response, how much she does or doesn't do, or letting your fear of some situation grip you with inaction, at least to the point that it dominates your thinking. Those things have a place in our thought life, but becoming a stronger man is all about having a stronger sense of self, and confidence in the abilities we have. Includes being honest about ourself, our limitations, and aptitude.


----------



## jaquen

Mavash. said:


> On some level I agree with you. Just cut them loose and be done with it.
> 
> But here's what I believe. I think that's the easy way out and you will learn nothing. Furthermore you will go on and let some other woman do it to you again.
> 
> It takes TWO to make a marriage fail. It's not so simple to say the man is too beta. You as the man chose this woman so you are just as to blame as she is. You were the one who allowed her behavior to stoop to an all time low by approving her treating you like crap. You must first lie down before someone can walk all over you. So to point fingers and call her a worthless piece of garbage is blameshifting at it's best.
> 
> It's true maybe she is a POS but you married her. :scratchhead:


Are we not all commenting under the presupposition that these wives didn't initially exhibit these traits earlier in the marriage?

Because if you knowingly married someone who, from day one, withheld sex, took advantage of you, and treats you like a glorified roommate, then I agree; it's the bed you chose, now lie in it.

However that isn't the context I, or most from what I can tell, are speaking of when they decide to "man up". The introspective work it takes to figure out how you could have missed the signs of her truest self is necessary work that can be done as you walk out the door.


----------



## Deejo

Machiavelli said:


> Watch this. It's only a small part of what we're talking about.


For another reference that overwhelmingly outlines the disparity between how people believe attraction works, and how it actually DOES work ...

Watch The Science of Sex Appeal Online | Netflix

People can poo-poo and pishaw this stuff as much as they like ... I certainly used to.

The Alpha/Beta thing isn't the 'goal'. It's a piece of the puzzle. The term is referential. It encapsulates strength of character, self-esteem, boundaries, and consequences for those that cross them. It's marketing and attention grabbing. People respond to it ... viscerally, as evidenced in this very thread 
Here on TAM it is most consistently referenced for men struggling in unbalanced relationships with women ... whom they dearly love.

But ... for those that truly internalize the process, it becomes clear that it isn't about women.

Getting the girl and keeping the girl simply becomes the corollary of choosing to be a better man. It isn't the goal. Not mine at least.


----------



## Mavash.

jaquen said:


> Are we not all commenting under the presupposition that these wives didn't initially exhibit these traits earlier in the marriage?
> 
> Because if you knowingly married someone who, from day one, withheld sex, took advantage of you, and treats you like a glorified roommate, then I agree; it's the bed you chose, now lie in it.
> 
> However that isn't the context I, or most from what I can tell, are speaking of when they decide to "man up". The introspective work it takes to figure out how you could have missed the signs of her truest self is necessary work that can be done as you walk out the door.


In my case there were clues before I got married that I wasn't going to be treated well. I chose to ignore them assuming it would get better. It didn't. And these weren't bad things just subtle hints of what life with him was going to be like.

I'm sure some men got the old bait and switch but I wonder how many had they looked closely enough would have seen some kind of sign that she wasn't exactly who she presented herself to be.


----------



## Deejo

Mavash. said:


> On some level I agree with you. Just cut them loose and be done with it.
> 
> But here's what I believe. I think that's the easy way out and you will learn nothing. Furthermore you will go on and let some other woman do it to you again.
> 
> It takes TWO to make a marriage fail. It's not so simple to say the man is too beta. You as the man chose this woman so you are just as to blame as she is. You were the one who allowed her behavior to stoop to an all time low by approving her treating you like crap. You must first lie down before someone can walk all over you. So to point fingers and call her a worthless piece of garbage is blameshifting at it's best.
> 
> It's true maybe she is a POS but you married her. :scratchhead:


I really like that you posted this.

I find that kind of effort admirable, and it is virtually impossible for those outside of your relationship to be aware of or acknowledge.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

I would interpret "alpha" to mean dominant thus if you're "alpha" in a relationship you're the dominant person. Maybe I'm not understanding the use of "alpha" in this context.


----------



## Mavash.

Deejo said:


> I really like that you posted this.
> 
> I find that kind of effort admirable, and it is virtually impossible for those outside of your relationship to be aware of or acknowledge.


Thank you. To fix my marriage I did all the right things. I lost weight, worked out, bought sexy clothes, did my hair, loved sex, got happier, healthier, and want to know what it got me? Nothing. LOL

A few key ingredients were missing. First off I assumed the problem was all mine. It wasn't. Secondly I didn't love myself and I had no self esteem. And lastly I had no boundaries and was too fearful of being abandoned to speak up for what I wanted directly.

Once I was able to see the whole picture not just a corner of it my life began to change at warp speed. This was not easy btw. This level of ownership and awareness takes hard work and persistence. It's so much easier to blame everything on someone else but at the end of the day the only person responsible for my happiness is me.


----------



## Deejo

MaritimeGuy said:


> I would interpret "alpha" to mean dominant thus if you're "alpha" in a relationship you're the dominant person. Maybe I'm not understanding the use of "alpha" in this context.


We tend to get even more visceral reactions when we toss around the phrase 'dominant'. It has a very negative connotation for most people, particularly women.

That may have changed some after the mass consumption of '50 Shades of Grey'. Dominant certainly needn't mean cruel.


----------



## Machiavelli

Gaia said:


> The only reason I get riled up about the mentioning of alpha, beta, omega around here is because I believe it is being misused. It seems a lot equate being alpha to being an uncaring, womanizing, tyrant and beta to being a caring, sweet, ect. I am of the opinion that confidence, strength, nerve are not the only traits of an alpha male. I believe true alphas have empathetic traits such as being sweet, kind, loyal, ect as well.


It doesn't matter what you call the Alpha Male. You can call him Bobby, you can call him Zimmy, but he still displays the same characteristics:  The alpha is the tall, good-looking guy who is the center of both male and female attention. The classic star of the football team who is dating the prettiest cheerleader... All the women are attracted to him, while all the men want to be him, or at least be his friend.



Gaia said:


> *If we are using wolves as an analogy*.... the alpha male does not treat his mate... which is the alpha female... as a lesser being. They are in fact equals and no she isn't his bytch of the week... since wolves tend to mate for life. She in turn does not flaunt around with other males nor does he breed with oother females.


No, we aren't using wolves as the "analogy." *Humans are primates, not canines.* Think Alpha Chimp or Silverback Gorilla. Just as there are differences between the alpha behaviors of those two species, so human alpha/beta behavior is not going to track exactly with the equivalent behavior of those species. Since "alpha" was already being used in the context of primate societies, it was natural for the term to be carried over to the human equivalent. And of course, human society is infinitely more complex, if only superficially, to chimpanzee society.



Gaia said:


> This brings me to this point... I believe an alpha male... if you want to us that term... is secure and confident in himself that he does not need the attentions of other females to feel good about himself.


This is also true of Sigmas. What alphas and sigmas have in common is that women are automatically attracted to them. They can get all they want just by saying "come here." They never suffer from "oneitis" and would never come onto TAM to find out how to deal with a cheating wife.



Gaia said:


> Again this is me explaining my POV and why I get a tad riled up about the alpha/ beta thing.


Again, the terminology is just a tag for empirically observed behavior.



Gaia said:


> Oh btw... I've dismissed men who blabbered about how they would sleep with my best friend or neighboor. So no it does not work for all women. If a man feels the need to tell me that... I don't even give him the time of day.


A high SMV male would only discuss that kind of thing with his women if he were instructing them to aid in the seduction of a new woman, as we see in the Kama Sutra; so what you describe is itself a low SMV behavior.


----------



## WyshIknew

Therealbrighteyes said:


> When did you get a vagina? Until you do, just stop telling or speaking on behalf of women. I know what I believe and I sure as heck don't need some dude to tell me what I want. You are also wrong, for me at least. The simple fact that you think you know what women want and are so bold to speak for an entire sex, makes you sexual napalm to me. Tell me again about how I get turned on, I friggin dare you.


Errr no thanks I'd like to retain that which makes me a man!:rofl:


----------



## jaquen

Alpha Game: The socio-sexual hierarchy

*In a social setting, the deltas are the men clustered together in groups, each of them making an occasional foray towards various small gaggles of women before beating a hasty retreat when direct eye contact and engaged responses are not forthcoming. *

I am cracking up reading this!

:rofl:


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Mavash. said:


> On some level I agree with you. Just cut them loose and be done with it.
> 
> But here's what I believe. I think that's the easy way out and you will learn nothing. Furthermore you will go on and let some other woman do it to you again.
> 
> It takes TWO to make a marriage fail. It's not so simple to say the man is too beta. You as the man chose this woman so you are just as to blame as she is. You were the one who allowed her behavior to stoop to an all time low by approving her treating you like crap. You must first lie down before someone can walk all over you. So to point fingers and call her a worthless piece of garbage is blameshifting at it's best.
> 
> It's true maybe she is a POS but you married her. :scratchhead:


I am going to quote myself from a different thread because I think it applies here:



> While there is certainly some of this, I think a lot is due to human nature. When nice guys constantly sacrifice so that their wife likes them, it becomes the norm. This is no different than anything else.
> 
> To give an example, my wife and I commonly have a snack after the kids go to bed. It may be nothing more than some cheese and crackers, but just a little something to nibble on. One of my "nice guy" habits was to get her snack and put her stuff away when we were done. This was back when our sex life was having problems and I was trying to pick up slack to show how nice I was (though I did not realize conscuously at the time, I was also hoping she would see that and want to have sex because I was so nice). The problem was it became a habit, and she would be get mad if I did not do it. I remember her being upset one evening when she went to bed earlier than I did because I had not picked up her stuff. What started out as a nice gesture became the norm, and anything less was seen as poor behavior.
> 
> Now, I don't think my wife is a b1tch, but I do think I was training her that she was above me. I fixed my behavior, and she now appreciates when I offer to do things (and offers to do things for me now as well). So while I think some women are naturally b1tches, I think that some men have trained their women to be that way.


I think a big part of being "alpha" is respecting yourself. That means not accepting disrepectful behavior, standing up for yourself, and recognizing that your needs are important and need to be addressed. It is not about being a jerk or treating others badly, but rather about being the person you want to be and standing up for yourself.

Perhaps what is needed is a better short-hand for this idea that is less loaded with the negative connotations of the PUA community.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Halien said:


> * But as a man who grew up in a mixed culture, around strong native american family in my earliest years, it was important to me to follow the better path, avoiding the traits that feed weakness, fear and inaction. *


^^^^^^^^^
....and sadly,
This is what is lacking in a lot of " metrosexual men" today.
Men are afraid to be MEN.

They are;

Afraid of commitment.
Afraid of confrontation.
Afraid of standing up for something
Afraid to LEAD.
Afraid to make DECISIONS.
afraid of taking responsibility for themselves.
Afraid of their their womenfolk.
afraid of their children.
Afraid of themselves.


----------



## Machiavelli

lovelygirl said:


> objective?
> 
> What if find attractive might seem ugly to you.
> 
> How is that objective?


Bell curve. Men worldwide are hardwired to subconsciously seek out the golden ratio with regards to waist:hip in women. Women subconsciously seek the same golden ratio with regards to chest:waist in men. This is where humans start sorting SMV and they aren't even consciously aware of it. 

If you are repelled by the golden ratio, then you're a 1 percenter.


----------



## Gaia

I mentioned wolves because I have seen a few posters use wolves as an analogy and their idea of alpha doesn't fit the alpha in wolves.. but I do agree with the silverback gorilla thing. 

And if my spouse tried mentioning or "instructing" as you say... anything that hinted at inviting another party into our relationship.... I would tell him to go take a hike. I'm not the sharing type nor do I want to be shared. 

And not every female was or is attracted to the so called good looking jock type. 

What do you mean by oneitis? Never heard of that before so I'm clueless as to what that means exactly... :/

I am tired so I'm probably misreading you a bit... I will admit that lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gaia

Er... and what's SMV?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

costa200 said:


> I like how these experiences basically demonstrate the difference between what women *say *and *reality*.


And that's the real reason why most women absolutely hate this stuff. They truly believe what they say about men and how they should behave with their rational mind, but sooner or later most women will violate those beliefs in the extreme, due to the reproductive programming of the limbic system. There will come a day when the limbic asserts itself and for some reason or another the cortex will not be able to contain it. And that's when her rationalization hamster runs wild with rewriting, blameshifting, betaization, and the whole host of reactions to a strong attraction for another man. Even if nothing sexual actually happens with the attractor male (as we see with one-way infatuations) the rationalization hamster must go into high gear second-guessing her existing relationship and sending her, all too often, on a quest to find herself.


----------



## Deejo

Gaia said:


> Er... and what's SMV?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sexual Market Value ... it's your Kelly Blue Book rating for the opposite sex.

Basically analogous to 'sex rank' or your number on the 1 to 10 scale as determined by the opposite sex.


----------



## Machiavelli

Gaia said:


> Er... and what's SMV?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sexual Market Value


----------



## Gaia

Thanks deejo and machiavelli.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## johnnycomelately

I think that it is a mistake to take too academic an approach to human relationships. I have that tendency too, but it has its limitations. If human emotions were that easily analysed and categorised we wouldn't have as many mental and emotional issues as we do. 

The basic theories of attraction and SMV are good models, but they are just that - models.


----------



## Cosmos

The following quotes are from Halien's post:-



> Keep the focus on who you want to be as a man. Most will want to be respected, loved by those we love, and be the kind of person who makes a difference. Keep the focus here, and many in your life will follow.


I agree. We have to lead by example, and living our lives authentically, holding ourselves accountable for our own behaviour, and others for theirs, will create healthier communication, interactions and relationships.



> My motto is to move forward. A large portion of the time, she nods and I just move us forward. She says that she responds to that leadership, but only when it is carried by respect and love for her, which sometimes means following her wisdom.


Communication and respect is vital. We cannot manipulate others into respecting us and following our lead. We have to lead by example, and sometimes that can mean allowing ourselves to defer to another's judgment.



> I'm just suggesting that you keep the focus on the type of man you want to be. Don't measure it by her position behind you.





> make your relationship the measure, the emotional satisfaction in the relationship, but not her response to each and every thing you do.





> _becoming a stronger man is all about having a stronger sense of self, and confidence in the abilities we have. Includes being honest about ourself, our limitations, and aptitude._


I think this is key for anyone who wants a better relationship with self and others. We have to be prepared to look at ourselves and be prepared to make changes within ourselves if necessary. 

Nothing changes unless we do, and I don't believe anything is to be gained by a man simply choosing to call himself "alpha" when all he is doing is creating a fake persona in order to be recognized as such.


----------



## WyshIknew

Adex said:


> Women want the alpha, but how can you attain it? I myself don't think of myself as a pure alpha. I used to be nice and try to get along with everyone. However, over the years I learned that it's better to be more alpha for your career and in your marriage.
> 
> Some things I try to do myself that have helped me:
> 
> -Whenever there's a decision to be made, I try to decide one way or another without hesitation. Even if it's as small as where are we going to eat or what do I want to do. I decide and she follows.
> 
> -I'm not as nice to my spouse in terms of helping around the house or with my kid. I don't show her much affection. Whatever she does, I do a bit less. This makes her like me more.
> 
> My sex life has improved as a result. Any other ideas? Becoming the alpha is a learning process...


I think the important word here is _more_ as in more alpha. As That Girl says a person who is 'pure alpha' is likely to be just a self centred d!ck.
I also strongly suspect that a pure alpha outlook is just as toxic to a marriage in its own way as a pure beta can be. The main difference would be the way the two types deal with their marital problem.

I think the decisions thing is a good idea, it shows you are prepared to lead the family. As much as your wife may respond to you leading I think the confidence to lead is also attractive.
But newsflash, this is your wife, your life partner not a slave.
I too do the decision thing and by and large Mrs Wysh likes that I do that, but she knows that she can step in and change something or suggest something else if she wants. If I'm planning a weekends activities I will deliberately leave some areas blank and ask her for her input. We are equal partners by and large, just I tend to be more likely to take the initiative.

I may be wrong as I'm no expert in these things but I do not think doing less around the house or with children is 'alpha' I think it is being a lazyarse d!ck. Yesterday and today I've been to the gym both days, been fishing once, tidied the kitchen, changed and washed the tablecloth, done three loads of washing (I have to ask her which setting to put the machine on) hung out the washing or tumbledried it. Picked in the washing and folded it (she always refolds it because apparently I do it wrong) I cooked Beouf Carbonnade followed by Bread and Butter Pudding yesterday and today I will cook Sweet and Sour Battered Chicken with Chinese Stir Fried Rice.
I may be very beta, I don't know, but if being alpha means I neglect my responsibilities and fair share of the work around the house then you can stick alpha up your arse.
If you want to be alpha about housework and childcare then why not 'manage' the housework. If your wife is happy following your lead in other things then why not suggest things like, "If you can clean the bathroom, I'll vacuum and tidy the lounge and look after the kids"
I know I'm beta, Mrs Wysh has not been well lately which has worried me. She went into work yesterday after a day off ill and returned at lunchtime feeling very very down. She started to have a little sob so I held her but couldn't hold back and started to cry myself. I know I should have been more of a man on that occasion but it absolutely kills me inside to hear her cry.
However, I do lots of alpha things too I just don't let it rule my life.

I just do what I think is right in life after utilising all the information available (which includes MMSLP) and I do it my way.

In the end isn't that alpha, doing what you feel is correct with confidence?

In all this striving to be alpha thing don't lose sight of what is most important.
Loving your wife and family, and being the best provider you can be.


----------



## BjornFree

Fascinating........


----------



## Tall Average Guy

WyshIknew said:


> I may be wrong as I'm no expert in these things but I do not think doing less around the house or with children is 'alpha' I think it is being a lazyarse d!ck.


Unfortunately, sometimes it is necessary to do less to demonstrate worth and self-respect. Me doing less for my wife was part of rebalancing our collective approach. Complaining about how I was treated was not enough. I had to take action (or in this case inaction) to make it clear. In many ways, it is no different than a women communicating dissatisfaction be having less sex. Words, without action, are too easily ignored.


----------



## Azure

I think this guy said it best...not sure who it was on here, but I had copied and pasted because I loved his answer, and its exactly what I would love to see in my man:

"Dominated - yes - controlled - no. 

I am going to try to differentiate those two - help from others is welcome. 

My W LIKES when I am:
- Physically dominant and playfully overpower her - wrestle with her. 
- Physically dominant in a sports environment - this is more skill and aggressiveness - like never giving up in a tennis volley
- Socially dominant - mainly by being a good listener - being assertive, knowledgeable and last but first being funny
- Skill/knowledge based dominant in our direct interactions or in my interactions in front of her. This is not "aggression" dominance, this is "overpower" the situation by a combo of being way better in that particular niche (for me sales, customer negotiation) than everyone else in the room. 

She would HATE and likely DIVORCE me if I tried to "control" her. I don't interrogate her on how she spends her time, who she spends time with. I don't tell her what to do, how to spend/not spend her time, our money when she goes out with friends or by herself. 

It is a bit tough to cleanly split these two things - but one is good and creates love, passion and respect for me as a man. The other "control" often seems to come from the male acting from fear, anxiety etc."

Yes I am an independent woman, and hate to feel smothered or controlled. But yes I would love to have a H who is a leader, who can make decisions and be confident in those decisions, who sometimes takes the weight off my shoulders (I feel like the mommy now when it comes to decision making) He shouldn't be afraid to speak his mind or to have a strong opinion. He shouldn't be afraid of confrontation, and shouldn't be afraid to rock the boat. Most of all, he shouldn't be afraid of ME! because if he is, then I sure won't respect him or be attracted to him! He shouldn't be afraid of intimacy out of fear of being rejected or abandoned. YES, I want him to love me deeply and to show it. NO I don't want him to withhold affection. 
But I don't want puppy love! I want him to be passionate and confident. I want him to push me up against the wall and rip my clothes off. I want him to know what he wants and to not be afraid to go and get it. I want him to be a GO GETTER! I simply want a MAN, not a BOY!

But really, what's wrong with him doing the dishes? That certainly does not make him emasculate or a doormat if he displays the qualities mentioned above. Nothing sexier than a man doing the dishes in his boxers LOL


----------



## Caribbean Man

WyshIknew said:


> Yesterday and today I've been to the gym both days, been fishing once, tidied the kitchen, changed and washed the tablecloth, done three loads of washing (I have to ask her which setting to put the machine on) hung out the washing or tumbledried it. Picked in the washing and folded it (she always refolds it because apparently I do it wrong) I cooked Beouf Carbonnade followed by Bread and Butter Pudding yesterday and today I will cook Sweet and Sour Battered Chicken with Chinese Stir Fried Rice.


Well,
If that works for you then good. Everyone's mileage is different.
Here's an example of how I do it.

Yesterday after coming from the gym, I met my post workout meal , warm and covered on the table. I was exhausted.
She helped me unpack my gym bag,while I ate, she sat with me and we talked about my workout.
I usually do the laundry, she offered to d it, but I said no, i will do it on Sunday.
After my meal [ which was late in the evening] I had a shower, went online, and she also had a shower and went inside. He cellphone rang and I took it inside for her, and realized that she was dressed in one of my favorite pieces of lingerie and a smile.
I shut down laptop,and headed inside.[ Had a long day, I was up since 3 AM that morning ] .But I was too tired so I fell asleep with her in my arms .
The sex came later around 3 AM this morning.
Around mid morning I surprised her with news that I had two invites, _front row seats_, to the the closing of the CFWI [ Caribbean Fashion Week international]. While talking with a customer, I negotiated the invites.
Now she cannot wait for Sunday evening!
Whatever plans she had , she cancelled , because she always wanted to attend this event which comes once a year at different locations in the Caribbean.
I didn't ask her to cancel her plans,_ I took the lead made the connections, got the invites to an event I knew she is dying to go to._ All she has to do is get an outfit tomorrow.

That's how it works with us.


----------



## Machiavelli

MaritimeGuy said:


> I would interpret "alpha" to mean dominant thus if you're "alpha" in a relationship you're the dominant person. Maybe I'm not understanding the use of "alpha" in this context.


You aren't. 
This is the best explanation in terms of marriage or LTR game. Definitions with regard to PUA are different.


----------



## Desperate_Housewife

norajane said:


> I don't think all women are the same nor want the same kind of guy nor want the same kind of lifestyle nor want the same kind of relationship dynamics with their partners. So it doesn't make sense to me that all guys need to be "alpha".
> 
> Sure, if you aren't respected by your partner, absolutely take a good hard look at who you are, what your relationship dynamics are, and who your wife is.
> 
> But trying to be more "alpha" is not a cure-all.


:iagree: I love my beta man. He compliments my Alpha Female personality. We're a perfect match... :smthumbup:


----------



## jaquen

Machiavelli said:


> You aren't.
> This is the best explanation in terms of marriage or LTR game. Definitions with regard to PUA are different.



This is hilarious considering that here on TAM "betas" are villainized, yet the writer of this article states:

*Betas... okay, betas actually have it pretty good.*

Meanwhile is there are category for the guys whose initial reaction is to read this page, and the HILARIOUS comment section, and just walk away to the tune of a nice, hearty guffaw?


----------



## norajane

Machiavelli said:


> You aren't.
> This is the best explanation in terms of marriage or LTR game. Definitions with regard to PUA are different.


From your link:



> However, alphas are only interested in women to the extent that they exist for the alpha's gratification, physical and psychological, they are actually more concerned with their overall group status.


Perhaps this is why people react to the alpha concept when used here on TAM, for marriages. That definition implies alpha is really to _dominate over other men_. They don't give a crap about women except how it makes them look to other men.

This has no place in a long term relationship or marriage.


----------



## Machiavelli

Gaia said:


> And if my spouse tried mentioning or "instructing" as you say... anything that hinted at inviting another party into our relationship.... I would tell him to go take a hike. I'm not the sharing type nor do I want to be shared.


The Kama Sutra is addressed to men in a polygynous society where hypergamy was in the open and there was no modern concept or expectation of total monogamy as has developed in the English speaking world since around 1600.



Gaia said:


> And not every female was or is attracted to the so called good looking jock type.


No, but those females are outliers on the tails, so for all practical purposes, they don't really count. Example: how many women are attracted to short, fat, balding, never married 30 yr old men with ponytails who dress in sweats and eat their own boogers while living in mom's basement?




Gaia said:


> What do you mean by oneitis? Never heard of that before so I'm clueless as to what that means exactly... :/


Oneitis is the brain disease causing a man to believe he has only one true love on this earth. Its victims are the type of guys who get on here and lament the wholly predictable loss of their soul-mate, best friend, pedestalized STBXW who has suddenly gone off chasing alpha-dong after 7 or 15 or 25 years of monogamous marital bliss. Even multiple flagrant affairs won't cure this disease in most of the sufferers who post on TAM. They're the ones who post and run when the answer is anything other than "romance her back."


----------



## MaritimeGuy

norajane said:


> From your link:
> 
> However, alphas are only interested in women to the extent that they exist for the alpha's gratification, physical and psychological, they are actually more concerned with their overall group status.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps this is why people react to the alpha concept when used here on TAM, for marriages. That definition implies alpha is really to _dominate over other men_. They don't give a crap about women except how it makes them look to other men.
> 
> This has no place in a long term relationship or marriage.


I picked up on the same thing from reading that link. I believe there are a lot of women out there who will respond to that kind of behaviour however that's not the kind of woman I'm interested in.


----------



## Cosmos

norajane said:


> From your link:
> 
> Perhaps this is why people react to the alpha concept when used here on TAM, for marriages. That definition implies alpha is really to _dominate over other men_. They don't give a crap about women except how it makes them look to other men.
> 
> This has no place in a long term relationship or marriage.


:iagree:

Having looked at that list, though, a Sigma sounds like the guy who truly has it all to me. A far more attractive option than an Alpha - and he achieves his Sigma status without even trying...


----------



## Machiavelli

jaquen said:


> This is hilarious considering that here on TAM "betas" are villainized, yet the writer of this article states:
> 
> *Betas... okay, betas actually have it pretty good.*


As Vox says, the problem is the PUA usage (Roissy, et al) of Beta, which is fine for purposes of whether or not one is scoring on any given night, but limited in terms of understanding female hypergamy beyond the world of the ONS. He recognizes that there is a layer of men to whom women are attracted who do not have the social deference from other males that the alpha gets.

Also, MMSL uses beta behavior as a term for behaviors that build attachment vs. alpha behaviors that build raw attraction.



jaquen said:


> Meanwhile is there are category for the guys whose initial reaction is to read this page, and the HILARIOUS comment section, and just walk away to the tune of a nice, hearty guffaw?


Vox calls those guys "Lambdas."


----------



## BjornFree

Machiavelli said:


> You aren't.
> This is the best explanation in terms of marriage or LTR game. Definitions with regard to PUA are different.


Read this link, now I'm puzzled, don't the betas have a pretty good life without all the power struggle for being alpha?

So my question is why try to be an alpha?


----------



## Desperate_Housewife

Adex said:


> Some things I try to do myself that have helped me:
> 
> -I'm not as nice to my spouse in terms of helping around the house or with my kid. I don't show her much affection. Whatever she does, I do a bit less. This makes her like me more.


:wtf:

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this part at all... 

That doesn't sound like an "alpha" to me. It sounds like someone acting like a jerk to their wife.

Unless that IS your definition of an "alpha male". In that case, we have VERY different view points on the matter.

I honestly don't see how that could make her like you more.


----------



## Machiavelli

norajane said:


> From your link:
> 
> Perhaps this is why people react to the alpha concept when used here on TAM, for marriages. That definition implies alpha is really to _dominate over other men_. They don't give a crap about women except how it makes them look to other men.


An alpha does have a dominant personality over other men, but that has nothing to do with his relationships with his women, other than the fact that his place at the top of the hierarchy is what makes him desirable to women as a mate. The AMOG couldn't care less about what his followers or his women think of his sexual relationships. HE doesn't even think about his relationships, because he doesn't have to. The women are lined up outside his door. Think Henry VIII and King David. Genghis Khan and Niall of the Nine Hostages. They have no need, no interest in maintaining an LTR. They can sample the flavor of the day and she will thank him for blessing her with his primo essence just that once.




norajane said:


> This has no place in a long term relationship or marriage.


Actually, it does. Women are, for all practical purposes, universally attracted to the Dark Triad, because those are the traits exhibited by the AMOG at the top of the heap prior to the industrial revolution. Women are hardwired to respond to those traits. You have to put some attractor traits in with your provider traits or your STBXW will be sniffing some other guy's pheromones eventually.


----------



## Machiavelli

BjornFree said:


> Read this link, now I'm puzzled, don't the betas have a pretty good life without all the power struggle for being alpha?
> 
> So my question is why try to be an alpha?


Because you want women. Acclaim, fame, and fortune are just means to goal number one, reproductively speaking.

It's a long way to the top, if you want to Rock n Roll.


----------



## Conrad

Desperate_Housewife said:


> :iagree: I love my beta man. He compliments my Alpha Female personality. We're a perfect match... :smthumbup:


For now.

I hope it stays that way.


----------



## Machiavelli

Cosmos said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Having looked at that list, though, a Sigma sounds like the guy who truly has it all to me. A far more attractive option than an Alpha - and he achieves his Sigma status without even trying...


Yes, but remember it's the women who place the guys in these slots. A guy can be a natural Sigma or Alpha or he can work his way up to that status, but it's the women who bestow the laurels. A guy can chant "I'm a Sigma" or "I'm an Alpha" all he wants, but if strange women aren't trying to sit in his lap at a club, talk to him about how cool his chopper is, or approaching him with "a question about this wine" at the supermarket, asking him for lifting advice at the gym, he does not have that status.


----------



## Machiavelli

Desperate_Housewife said:


> :wtf:
> 
> I'm sorry, but I don't understand this part at all...I honestly don't see how that could make her like you more.


Counterintuitive, but very effective at maintaining attraction long term. Of course, it has to be balanced by the bonding traits, too.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Desperate_Housewife said:


> :wtf:
> 
> I'm sorry, but I don't understand this part at all...
> 
> That doesn't sound like an "alpha" to me. It sounds like someone acting like a jerk to their wife.
> 
> Unless that IS your definition of an "alpha male". In that case, we have VERY different view points on the matter.
> 
> I honestly don't see how that could make her like you more.


Because often doing this is necessary to rebalance the relationship. You are looking at it from a standpoint of both sides having a balanced relationship, and then the husband taking the above actions. 

Go back to my example to see why this might work. My relationship had become unbalanced. I had gotten lazy in some areas that my wife found attractive, but had put to much work in other areas, including helping around the house. I was doing big chunks of the housework and child care despite working 10 hour days (including taking feedings at 3 am). My helping out became the norm. It was no longer appreciated but expected. By reducing what I did to a more balanced level, I demonstrated that I was her equal, not her butler, and that my needs were also equal. I am not blaming her, as I in a sense trained her to behave that way, but it was still there.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Machiavelli said:


> Counterintuitive, but very effective at maintaining attraction long term. Of course, it has to be *balanced by the bonding traits*, too.


I do think this missed to often in these discussions. People mistakenly say they need to be alpha, when what they really mean is that they need to adjust the balance of alpha and beta traits (as described in MMSL). Neither pure alpha nor pure beta work in a LTR. You need a good mixture of both.


----------



## Mavash.

Desperate_Housewife said:


> :wtf:
> 
> I'm sorry, but I don't understand this part at all...
> 
> That doesn't sound like an "alpha" to me. It sounds like someone acting like a jerk to their wife.
> 
> Unless that IS your definition of an "alpha male". In that case, we have VERY different view points on the matter.
> 
> I honestly don't see how that could make her like you more.


This only needs to be done when a spouse (could be husband or wife) takes the other for granted. 

It truly is quite effective.

It does not need to be done if the relationship is working well for both parties.


----------



## BjornFree

I think a lot of men are ashamed of who they are. So they try putting on a fake exoskeleton of alpha. How is it alpha when you're trying to cover up your insecurity with false bravado? Overtime, I think these men are suppressing their own personality in favor of the pack mentality of being alpha. Anything less than that and the little boy in them is crying at the injustice. I believe that people should embrace their shortcomings. So what if the OP is not good enough to be alpha? Embrace the beta, flaunt your beta maleness OP. Rather than looking at ways to make yourself more attractive, assume that you are and then go interact with women.

I think most of the alpha males are deriving their self worth from external sources. I don't understand why you have to put a name tag on a certain type of behavior just so you please your wife or create attraction. Whats the point of being alpha if the only reason for you're being that way is her? So you have the urge to wash dishes? Do it. There's really no need to hesitate because you're going to come across as beta. Remember, its you who has the urge to wash dishes.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken but isn't the entire concept of putting on the alpha make up for someone else (namely your wife) entirely beta in itself?


----------



## Cosmos

Machiavelli said:


> Yes, but remember it's the women who place the guys in these slots. A guy can be a natural Sigma or Alpha or he can work his way up to that status, but it's the women who bestow the laurels. A guy can chant "I'm a Sigma" or "I'm an Alpha" all he wants, but if strange women aren't trying to sit in his lap at a club, talk to him about how cool his chopper is, or approaching him with "a question about this wine" at the supermarket, asking him for lifting advice at the gym, he does not have that status.


It does seem to me, then, that the qualities that cause a male to be recognized as Alpha, Beta etc are _inherent_, rather than acquired. 

I find strong, dominant men very attractive, and believe that I'd quickly discern whether a man was merely adopting a persona in order to be perceived that way.

If it isn't in a man's nature to be an Alpha, no amount of 'treating 'em mean to keep 'em keen' is going to help make him one, IMO, because a true Alpha simply doesn't have to prove who he is. He just is.


----------



## Mavash.

I think if a man is a true beta trying to be alpha is a waste of time and effort. For example I'm introverted and any effort to be extroverted is never going to work.

What beta men need to do is simply learn skills to set boundaries, put themselves first, make a few more decisions, speak up a little more, etc. 

This to me is a more doable goal than trying to go alpha.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Mavash. said:


> I think if a man is a true beta trying to be alpha is a waste of time and effort. For example I'm introverted and any effort to be extroverted is never going to work.
> 
> What beta men need to do is simply learn skills to set boundaries, put themselves first, make a few more decisions, speak up a little more, etc.
> 
> This to me is a more doable goal than trying to go alpha.


Interesting, because to me, those are all alpha traits.


----------



## Machiavelli

BjornFree said:


> I think a lot of men are ashamed of who they are. So they try putting on a fake exoskeleton of alpha. How is it alpha when you're trying to cover up your insecurity with false bravado? Overtime, I think these men are suppressing their own personality in favor of the pack mentality of being alpha. Anything less than that and the little boy in them is crying at the injustice. I believe that people should embrace their shortcomings. So what if the OP is not good enough to be alpha? Embrace the beta, flaunt your beta maleness OP. Rather than looking at ways to make yourself more attractive, assume that you are and then go interact with women.
> 
> I think most of the alpha males are deriving their self worth from external sources. I don't understand why you have to put a name tag on a certain type of behavior just so you please your wife or create attraction. Whats the point of being alpha if the only reason for you're being that way is her? So you have the urge to wash dishes? Do it. There's really no need to hesitate because you're going to come across as beta. Remember, its you who has the urge to wash dishes.
> 
> Forgive me if I'm mistaken but isn't the entire concept of putting on the alpha make up for someone else (namely your wife) entirely beta in itself?


Yup, you're mistaken. Beta as defined by Vox Day in the links above is a physically attractive guy who ain't afraid to look a girl in the eye. He also has a fair degree of respect from other males, even though he accepts his secondary place in the hierarchy. PUAs would call him a "natural alpha" if he was into the ONS scene. The fact that he actually has a genuine love and concern for his woman is a beta trait, and one that must be regulated if an LTR is the goal. The problem is that females lose attraction to a steady diet of bonding traits, even from a successful, good looking guy. Female reproductive programming demands Essence of Badboy at ovulation time and Old Shoe stability the other 3 weeks of the month. For LTR to work right, you have to be all things to your woman at the right time of the month.


----------



## Mavash.

Tall Average Guy said:


> Interesting, because to me, those are all alpha traits.


Guess I should stay out of the men's clubhouse huh? LOL

I was thinking more balance. Like a 'little' more alpha a little 'less beta. Smooth out the edges but not completely make it go away. My husband is a beta and I can't see him ever being alpha at home but he may surprise me if I keep going on the path I'm on. Who knows?


----------



## jaquen

Drop the asinine labels. Get introspective and work on digging out the authentic, real you. A man walking in his own skin comfortably, to his own tune, proud, and free of shame, is a man on top of the world. If a woman isn't into him for his authentic self, so be it; there isn't a shortage of women on this planet.

Leave the debates about the Greek alphabet to the wannabes, hopefuls, and the somedayIwillers. Books like MMSL and programs like PUA are great for guys who've become walking doormats, and are looking for a lifeline out of the desperate waters of low self esteem and poor self image. But you can't ever step to a man who knows exactly who he is, and doesn't give a damn what anybody thinks about that.


----------



## BjornFree

Machiavelli said:


> Yup, you're mistaken. Beta as defined by Vox Day in the links above is a physically attractive guy who ain't afraid to look a girl in the eye. He also has a fair degree of respect from other males, even though he accepts his secondary place in the hierarchy. PUAs would call him a "natural alpha" if he was into the ONS scene. The fact that he actually has a genuine love and concern for his woman is a beta trait, and one that must be regulated if an LTR is the goal. The problem is that females lose attraction to a steady diet of bonding traits, even from a successful, good looking guy. Female reproductive programming demands Essence of Badboy at ovulation time and Old Shoe stability the other 3 weeks of the month. For LTR to work right, you have to be all things to your woman at the right time of the month.


Yes, I was probably mistaken. Carry on....


----------



## Machiavelli

Cosmos said:


> It does seem to me, then, that the qualities that cause a male to be recognized as Alpha, Beta etc are _inherent_, rather than acquired.


They can be both.



Cosmos said:


> I find strong, dominant men very attractive, and believe that I'd quickly discern whether a man was merely adopting a persona in order to be perceived that way.


You would be amazed at how quickly a man can become attractive when he gets built, gets confidence, and throws off the shackles of the Anglospherian Matriarchy.



Cosmos said:


> If it isn't in a man's nature to be an Alpha, no amount of 'treating 'em mean to keep 'em keen' is going to help make him one, IMO, because a true Alpha simply doesn't have to prove who he is. He just is.


There are certainly natural alphas and sigmas, primarily due to genetic inheritance: tall, V torso, handsome face, certain behavorial traits. In fact, most of the entire human race is descended from the Alphas and Sigmas. Genghis Kahn alone has 16,000,000 male descendants living today. Having said that, most leaders are made, not born. As the Emperor, himself a short, balding little guy who was a self-made ultra-alpha, once said to his troops, "Every one of you carries a marshal's baton in his knapsack; It is up to you to bring it out."


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Thanks everyone, this is a great thread. I sure am learning a lot. So my question is how much of the alpha being depends on physical characteristics and how much is personality? Are all the NBA and NFL guys alphas? Can a short balding guy ever be an alpha? If you are 6'6", built and have great hair, do you ever need to open your mouth?


----------



## Machiavelli

jaquen said:


> Drop the asinine labels. Get introspective and work on digging out the authentic, real you. A man walking in his own skin comfortably, to his own tune, proud, and free of shame, is a man on top of the world. If a woman isn't into him for his authentic self, so be it; there isn't a shortage of women on this planet.


This prescription will result in only 30% of males passing on their genes to the next generation, as was the case prior to the medieval period. Western Society is moving rapidly toward unrestricted female hypergamy and I don't see that changing. After "gay marriage" comes the next step, legally recognized polygamy, which in practice will be polygyny. We already have legal serial polygamy since the late 19th century. So while there is no shortage of women, they will invariably engage in man sharing (knowingly or not), as a few of my female clients already do, to gain access to the fittest males, as they have for thousands of years prior to the rise of the Roman marriage law.



jaquen said:


> Leave the debates about the Greek alphabet to the wannabes, hopefuls, and the somedayIwillers. Books like MMSL and programs like PUA are great for guys who've become walking doormats, and are looking for a lifeline out of the desperate waters of low self esteem and poor self image. But you can't ever step to a man who knows exactly who he is, and doesn't give a damn what anybody thinks about that.


Sure, but the losers in the gene lottery want to get laid, too. Take a look at the guys behind the PUA stuff like Neil Strauss and Mystery. For those guys to pull even a 3 SMV girl is like a miracle. The simple fact of the matter is the 80% of the women are attracted to the same 20% of men. If anything, those percentages are even understated.


----------



## Machiavelli

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Thanks everyone, this is a great thread. I sure am learning a lot. So my question is how much of the alpha being depends on physical characteristics and how much is personality?


A lot of both. You're probably talking 5% or less just to have a preponderance of alpha characteristics, including the Dark Triad.



Ten_year_hubby said:


> Are all the NBA and NFL guys alphas?


Mostly, by far. Some are shy and one or two are impeded by Churchianity. Remember, all these guys were BMOC since elementary school. They walk into a room and panties get wet. It's embarrassing to see how otherwise semi-decent women behave. 



Ten_year_hubby said:


> Can a short balding guy ever be an alpha?



Danny DeVito, Womanizer.



Ten_year_hubby said:


> If you are 6'6", buff and have great hair, do you even need to open your mouth?


Six foot is plenty tall enough. No, you just need to sit there. They will come to you. It helps to be under 35, though. But, it's relative.


----------



## WyshIknew

Ten year hubby has sparked an interesting question for me.
There is a website that allows you to calculate your approximate SMV. I am on the very lowest edge of an attractive height, 5' 9". Ten year Hubby mentions a height of 6' 6", to me as a bloke some of these ultra tall basketball players look awfully gangly and awkward. Is there a height at which the extra height becomes a turn off? And is this reflected in the SMV?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Mavash. said:


> Guess I should stay out of the men's clubhouse huh? LOL
> 
> I was thinking more balance. Like a 'little' more alpha a little 'less beta. Smooth out the edges but not completely make it go away. My husband is a beta and I can't see him ever being alpha at home but he may surprise me if I keep going on the path I'm on. Who knows?


Absolutely. Correct me if I am wrong, but you likely don't want him to be an alpha. What you want is some alpha traits mixed in with the beta. To give an example from my own life, I upped my "alpha" traits by being more decisive and taking on more of the home improvement projects rather than hire them out. I still help with the kids and take care of my wife when she is sick, but I added balance. 

People are complex. Very few are completely alpha or completely beta. We are a mix, along with some other more difficult to define traits. My goal is finding the mix that works for me and the man that I want to be. Fortunately, that mix seems to also work to increase my wife's attraction to me.


----------



## jaquen

Cosmos said:


> Actually, I used to think the alpha/beta etc business was a load of old codswallop but, going through some of the posts here, and having done some of my own research on the subject, I'm starting to gain a little more insight into the possible significance of the concept.
> 
> Very interesting, indeed.


I think there is a lot basic, common sense to the entire theory.

But that basic, common sense elements are often lost in a haze of frauds, BS, and abuse. Lots of "pick up artists" out here milking dumbass men out of their money and time. 

And here on TAM, the reliance on MMSL talk has risen to nauseous levels.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *Adex said*: That is true. Men are taught by society to be a gentleman, the nice guy, romantic, and the girl will love you for it. It has caused a whole generation of wimps and metrosexuals.


 It bothers me when I hear Romantic men being put down like this...calling them wimps.... makes me want to







... I feel these comments are stomping on my good husband .... This so depends on the woman... I absolutely love the more sensitive Romantic male - this does not turn me off but fulfills me in the deepest ways emotionally - to be married to a man like this. 



> The truth is, women think they want that but they really don't. Deep down inside, women want a strong confident man that isn't super nice to them, will disagree with things from time to time, won't be their servant, will tell them what to do, and will lead them. It's what turns a girl on.


 I DO love when my husband TELLS ME WHAT FOR.... I like a little conflict, if he doesn't bring it - I will. He is geared more to go with the flow, but I care enough to make sure he is happy too... 

For those times I may get a little out of hand...he makes fun of me ....this brings out the humor between us... When a man can get you to laugh at yourself, your unruly moments & still loves you at the same time... this is worth gold. For instance... If my husband lacked patience here with me, or tried to put me in my place, conforming to him in some strict manner -like "OBEY WOMAN" ..... instead of using a little dry humor on me.......I do feel we'd be at each others throats. 

He may not be as forthcoming as myself -but he's getting better. I would never want a man who would push me aside, ignore my needs, intentionally not be nice. This would cause ME to be more bi*chy. 



johnnycomelately said:


> To me there is nothing so 'beta' as worrying about not being more 'alpha'. You are who you are. Trying to engineer your personality for fear of your spouse leaving is sad and will be really transparent. Like a kid smoking to try to look more grown up.


 I agree with this. My husband couldn't care less about any of this.. he knows I like to read about this stuff, for the life of him, he doesn't understand why.......He says he is happy with who he is and if everyone around him called him a pu**y, he still wouldn't care, cause he is a happy pu**y -getting lots of Pu**y.... no he didn't exactly say this -but I could easily see him speaking something similar ~ just a little less vulgar perhaps. 



Stonewall said:


> I really needed to be more alpha. I wish I had recognized this 25 years ago. I could have avoided a lot of problems if I had but thats water over the dam now. I am working on it nowadays but I could never do the hold back affection thing no matter how hard I try. That is just a bridge to far for me.


 Just like my husband Stonewall, he couldn't hold back on the affection either...even when he wanted more.. this never dryed up ~ it is just not in him.. but I love him dearly for that. 



Machiavelli said:


> And a$$holes get all the girls. Quit spreading 'em for a$$holes and you girls will get less a$$hole behavior. When your reward someone for a particular behavior, you get more of it.


 I never spread for an A$$hole ... Just saying. I have warned, however, many a woman they are going down a dark path lusting after these types. 




> *Costa200 said*: Lets be honest here ladies, in high school, did you get wet for the broad shouldered hiperpopular sports jock or the easy going library geek who would do all your biddings. ....


 I NEVER had a thing for the Jocks..... I've always felt sports are just the biggest waste of time...I get so annoyed in church, the Pastor is always praising these damn sports Heros ..I end up rolling my eyes... It's a PLUS to me that my husband also could care less about sports.... we'd rather watch PORN!  

And I know how odd this sounds.. but most of my secret crushes in school were boys who weren't popular.... I had very odd taste ~~ cause I am an ODD woman... Thin men with Red hair always got my attention -if he had long hair....OH BABY! add a guitar over his shoulder - I might be salivating ....

This is how bad my taste in men was....My husband has even told me to NOT compare him to some of my high school crushes - makes him look bad! (many of these boys never knew, grades above me -I admired from afar ) 

.....I had a thing for SHY boys with long hair.... I loved the type I could talk too *deeply*... introverts who open up are more geared this way, more intellectual, I never cared for the popular Sanquine party type guys (these are the most popular boys)...did absolutely nothing for me...not my scene. 

Now if you add --Looking for LOVE (romantic), touchy feely & some dry humor....







...this would = my "dream man".

My husband wasn't all of this - but I did get him to grow his hair a little longer for our Wedding - he is lanky, very affectionate, gives me his time, my best friend. Had he been in a band - well - I think my engine would have been revved non stop. 




> *Costa200 said*:
> As much as you SAY you want this and that, observation and experience tells otherwise. And personally i'm basically walking proof of this. As a young teen i was often friend-zoned until i found out i was acting like and idiot trying to cater to women hoping to fall in their good graces. Only when i discovered that i had to actually do the opposite and give them the "you're not all that" did i manage to get royally going....
> 
> I didn't become a "jerk". But i did become one of those guys who would basically tell a girl that i'm more than she can handle, that i'll probably be having sex with her friend in the next week if she doesn't show signs of wanting me. The whole "i really don't give a damn". And yes, ****y bastard extreme! Sexual innuendo going and no i'm not a friend! Don't even call me that!


 Costa200... I would have liked you better when you was the friendly teen idiot..... 

When I met my husband , he was that NICE Guy..the type you call idiots here, others call wimps. 

When we met...I hated my home life....I was angry & I had an attitude... I was NOT, however, fat, homely, ugly or desperate to get a guy.... I had lots of flirty boys I could take a ride with at any given time- I was smarter than this.

My husband, *because he WAS the way he was*, he helped me LOVE myself again, made me feel like I was someone very special...the most precious thing in this world...Yeah, he loved ME more than I gave back even (shame on him)....... but you know... this didn't bite him in the ass.... so please... some of these men have their place... and not all women sh** on them... 

His goodness TO ME won my love for him. Of course I found him physically attractive too - this IS very important . 

He has never changed, I count him the wind beneath my wings... some women are exceptions... and some MEN don't have to APPEAR bastards to keep a good woman.



Machiavelli said:


> It doesn't matter what you call the Alpha Male. You can call him Bobby, you can call him Zimmy, but he still displays the same characteristics:  The alpha is the tall, good-looking guy who is the center of both male and female attention. The classic star of the football team who is dating the prettiest cheerleader... All the women are attracted to him, while all the men want to be him, or at least be his friend.


 Since their is so much mud slinging on the







male in this thread... here is my little jab on the high school heart throbs... 10 -15 yrs after these types marry.... very possibly he might be going bald (all that high test), a beer belly, his cheerleader wife has gained 40 lbs, Soccer mom with a low sex drive -likely due to resentment -cause her husband grew into a 1st class A-hole ~ has no clue what Romancing a woman is, doesn't spend time with the kids....so meanwhile, he's hitting the bars after work ~ communication breakdown 101 & selfishness on both sides. 

It doesn't always = bliss ~cause one was HOT in High school. 

I know one of those popular Jocks- he was a jack*ass then...never treated his wife right, emotional abuse almost.....after 3 kids.... she had enough, fell into an EA with a Fat beta guy -and left his ass -this man actually treats her good, and I hear she is finally happy! Good for her. 




Desperate_Housewife said:


> :iagree: I love my beta man. He compliments my Alpha Female personality. We're a perfect match... :smthumbup:


I am naturally more on the aggressive side myself ...I'm the ALPHA ..... I get him revved up (which he needs) and he has the ability to calm ME when I get a little out of hand...I LOVE his dry humor.... he always always always gets me to laugh AT MYSELF... oh what this is worth in a marriage.


----------



## Ikaika

jaquen said:


> *I think there is a lot basic, common sense to the entire theory.*
> 
> But that basic, common sense is often lost in a ton of fraud, BS, and abuse.
> 
> And here on TAM, the reliance on MMSL talk has risen to nauseous levels.


I did not want to be the one to say it. :iagree:

Sure, take care of yourself (exercise and eat right)
Have confidence in what you are doing
Be your own man before you are some woman's man
Consider your partners sexual needs to enjoy your own

What else is there. Following so prescribed methodology will result in someone that s not you and you are likely to come off looking like Barney Fife.

So you can be a confident gentleman who takes care of himself physically, mentally, and financially (not that you have to be rich, just wise with money) and be attractive.


----------



## Cosmos

jaquen said:


> I think there is a lot basic, common sense to the entire theory.
> 
> But that basic, common sense is often lost in a ton of fraud, BS, and abuse.
> 
> And here on TAM, the reliance on MMSL talk has risen to nauseous levels.


I agree with you, and I guess it's a case of sifting through the BS. There is also a tendency wtih some on TAM to claim that they're alpha whilst exhibiting some pretty unattractive un-alpha like behaviour. This is where things get confusing...


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

WyshIknew said:


> Is there a height at which the extra height becomes a turn off?


Having once attended a dinner that featured 7"1' Ralph Sampson, I would say no.


----------



## Machiavelli

WyshIknew said:


> Ten year hubby has sparked an interesting question for me.
> There is a website that allows you to calculate your approximate SMV. I am on the very lowest edge of an attractive height, 5' 9". Ten year Hubby mentions a height of 6' 6", to me as a bloke some of these ultra tall basketball players look awfully gangly and awkward. Is there a height at which the extra height becomes a turn off? And is this reflected in the SMV?


It might not be reflected in somebody's sex rank calculator, but you know there is always a point of diminishing returns. As long as the guy is an athlete who actively suits up, or did so previously, it doesn't matter if he's a Preying Mantis, he's going to have mega high rank, but it will diminish as his playing days, whether they be HS, college, or pro, disappear in the rear view mirror. There are exceptions, like Wilt "30,000" Chamberlain, who carried on long after retirement.


----------



## Machiavelli

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Having once attended a dinner that featured 7"1' Ralph Sampson, I would say no.


I get embarrassed for the women in attendance at these things. All dignity, family, religion, values, go right out the window. It's even worse in a party setting.


----------



## WyshIknew

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Having once attended a dinner that featured 7"1' Ralph Sampson, I would say no.


But was that attraction because he is or was a succesful athlete, fairly wealthy and his success has left him feeling very confident about himself?

If he wasn't very good at throwing a ball through a hole would he be as attractive?


----------



## Machiavelli

drerio said:


> I did not want to be the one to say it. :iagree:
> 
> Sure, take care of yourself (exercise and eat right)
> Have confidence in what you are doing
> Be your own man before you are some woman's man
> *Consider your partners sexual needs to enjoy your own*
> 
> What else is there. *Following so prescribed methodology will result in someone that s not you* and you are likely to come off looking like Barney Fife.
> 
> So you can be a confident gentleman who takes care of himself physically, mentally, and financially (not that you have to be rich, just wise with money) and be attractive.


The two bolded areas I would somewhat disagree with, and you can be flat broke and be a Alpha/Sigma. A lot of guys were A before and after they were rich.

What's interesting is that as my clients change their physiques from obese blobs to chiseled Michelangelian proportions, their interactions with women change drastically. For the first time their lives, they are approached by women, including married women, which perturbs them. But their minds are not really prepared for this and it takes a while to get out of delta/gamma mode mentally. Some never quite get there, but others do.


----------



## Machiavelli

WyshIknew said:


> But was that attraction because he is or was a succesful athlete, fairly wealthy and his success has left him feeling very confident about himself?
> 
> If he wasn't very good at throwing a ball through a hole would he be as attractive?


No, but he would still be in the top 5%. NBA players are in the stratosphere.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Desperate_Housewife said:


> :iagree: I love my beta man. He compliments my Alpha Female personality. We're a perfect match... :smthumbup:


Well if tha works for you guys......

As for me, if my wife was beta, we would have been DIVORCED long ago!
She keeps me on " even keel."

There was this one I remember,
before we were even married,that she got so mad at something I said that she actually slapped me across my face!
She shocked me, and she refused to apologize because she said I deserved it.
I remember thinking that I had grossly understimated this woman and that she was right, because I was rude and arrogant in my statement.

I was attracted to the fire that lay just undrneath. She was no pushover woman. She had serious boundaries that she refused to compromise from day one.

Irespected her for that, and my attraction for her grew.


----------



## jaquen

No matter what Greek letter you want to have tattooed across your chest, if you look good, you'll have no problem landing tail.

I know. I grew up as a fat kid with bottom basement self esteem. Lost 70 lbs, became what a lot of people considered a "hot guy", and the women who expressed interest shocked me. And I had anti-game back then as my body changed far faster than my mind did. My self perception was still horrendous, and I suffered from serious body dysmorphia, even after the weight was off and I was fit. 

None of these other rules mattered. If I was into bed hopping, I could have had so much tail. Didn't see it then at all though.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

drerio said:


> IWhat else is there. Following so prescribed methodology will result in someone that s not you and you are likely to come off looking like Barney Fife.


It depends on what that methodology is. If it is a bunch of pick-up lines and games, then you are correct. If it is about changing yourself, then you are incorrect.


----------



## Ikaika

Machiavelli said:


> The two bolded areas I would somewhat disagree with, and you can be flat broke and be a Alpha/Sigma. A lot of guys were A before and after they were rich.
> 
> What's interesting is that as my clients change their physiques from obese blobs to chiseled perfection, their interactions with women change drastically. For the first time their lives, they are approached by women, including married women, which perturbs them. But their minds are not really prepared for this and it takes a while to get out of delta/gamma mode mentally. Some never quite get there, but others do.


It is your opinion to which I don't agree, but that is Ok... but you obviously cherry picked the bold remarks and ignored my bullet points. Oh well.

Too many misconceptions that I have read about where people tend to cherry pick things that take information out of context. Not that I am "the" leading expert, but I have dealt with as much of an understanding of the limbic system as one can and I can tell you the characterization is misplaced all to often. It runs parallel to the notion that we put off pheromones that women are attracted to... bunk and that has been bunked many times over in peer-reviewed science journals. 

Read my bullet points, I did not say just go around as a fat slob, but to suggests that we exist only at the primal nature of modular neurological system, is just not correct in my opinion.


----------



## Ikaika

Tall Average Guy said:


> It depends on what that methodology is. If it is a bunch of pick-up lines and games, then you are correct. If it is about changing yourself, then you are incorrect.


I did not say that... and that is obviously not part of the script for being alpha. I just suggest that you can't force something that you are not.


----------



## Caribbean Man

BjornFree said:


> I think a lot of men are ashamed of who they are. So they try putting on a fake exoskeleton of alpha. How is it alpha when you're trying to cover up your insecurity with false bravado? Overtime, I think these men are suppressing their own personality in favor of the pack mentality of being alpha. Anything less than that and the little boy in them is crying at the injustice. I believe that people should embrace their shortcomings. So what if the OP is not good enough to be alpha? Embrace the beta, flaunt your beta maleness OP. Rather than looking at ways to make yourself more attractive, assume that you are and then go interact with women.
> 
> I think most of the alpha males are deriving their self worth from external sources. I don't understand why you have to put a name tag on a certain type of behavior just so you please your wife or create attraction. Whats the point of being alpha if the only reason for you're being that way is her? So you have the urge to wash dishes? Do it. There's really no need to hesitate because you're going to come across as beta. Remember, its you who has the urge to wash dishes.
> 
> *Forgive me if I'm mistaken but isn't the entire concept of putting on the alpha make up for someone else (namely your wife) entirely beta in itself?*


I forgive you, obviously you didn't
read Halien's post

Post #95 @ 8.56 AM, by Halien , [ Moderator ]

*I think that there is an inherent risk when you begin to incorporate your wife's actions or response into your own journey into becoming the man you want to be. I think that you are trying to avoid that, but it might be worth discussing. Trust me, find the inner man within you, and most folks will follow. Same goes for women, also, if they seek that inner strength to define who they are. *
Keep the focus on who you want to be as a man. Most will want to be respected, loved by those we love, and be the kind of person who makes a difference. Keep the focus here, and many in your life will follow. 

Some people in my life describe me as strong-minded, focused, and alpha, while we actually use different terminology. But I want my wife to feel loved and respected, while having reason to feel the same for me. Frankly, she's smarter than me in some areas of life. I'm no longer intimidated by that. But as a man who grew up in a mixed culture, around strong native american family in my earliest years, it was important to me to follow the better path, avoiding the traits that feed weakness, fear and inaction. If a new problem enters our life, I will seek the advice of my wife, but she knows that I can't stand inaction. My motto is to move forward. A large portion of the time, she nods and I just move us forward. She says that she responds to that leadership, but only when it is carried by respect and love for her, which sometimes means following her wisdom.

*I'm just suggesting that you keep the focus on the type of man you want to be. Don't measure it by her position behind you. As Deejo mentioned, make your relationship the measure, the emotional satisfaction in the relationship, but not her response to each and every thing you do. Do YOU make her life more exciting, fulfilling, and content? Beta is all about getting tripped up into worrying about her response, how much she does or doesn't do, or letting your fear of some situation grip you with inaction, at least to the point that it dominates your thinking. Those things have a place in our thought life, but becoming a stronger man is all about having a stronger sense of self, and confidence in the abilities we have. Includes being honest about ourself, our limitations, and aptitude.*


----------



## Ikaika

Really, if you become your own man before you become her man... it is obvious that is what she is attracted to. What more does one have to recognize.


----------



## jaquen

drerio said:


> *Really, if you become your own man before you become her man*... it is obvious that is what she is attracted to. What more does one have to recognize.


Perfectly stated.

:smthumbup:


----------



## Caribbean Man

Again here we go with this whole thing about being Alpha.

Its not about being Alpha, its about adopting the _Alpha traits that best suits your marriage relationship_.

The term " Alpha " is offensive?
Then use the term " manly" or " self confidence."

Better?
No two marriages are the same.

To some people it comes naturally because of their childhood experiences and upbringing.
To others they have to work on themselves.

Why is that so hard to understand?


----------



## Conrad

Because people really don't want to face themselves.


----------



## Ikaika

Just want to be lighthearted here... so don't take seriously

Lead singer - alpha 1
Lead guitar player - alpha 2
drummer - alpha 3 (except this drummer, whoa)
rhythm guitar - alpha & beta
keyboard player - beta
bass player - gamma


----------



## Gaia

I'm not sure if your saying those women are liars or what but why do you say they don't count? And there are more then just the jock type men out there and the fat, booger eating losers your referring to. I also don't equate a man to be alpha just because strange women try to sit in his lap. 


I can give this as an example...

My spouse and his brother...

His brother has tons of women hopping into bed with him, he goes around saying how he just has sooo much love to give to them and he isn't a bad looking guy. 

Now.. my spouse... in my eyes.. is also an attractive looking man, I do know other women find him atttractive as well but here is a difference between them.


My spouse is aloof with others, he may do some kind, caring things but he is far from being a nice guy .. as in doormat by your standards. He does romance me from time to tim. Now when I say romance... I mean he will do random things such as take me by suprise and french me, buy me some gifts when he can afford it.. such as a desert rose, the smokey quartz pendant, my bird. He is not afraid to speak his mind to anyone... and he has even done so to my brothers who are the big, muscular, jock looking types. 

Gates brother tends to whine a lot, he treats the women he is with like garbage, he cowers if confronted by most other men and if he so much as bumps his head he acts as if he has a serious life threatening injury. 


In my eyes gates brother is not what I consider alpha.. even though he may have strange women leaping into bed with him. For one... when he went head to head in an arguement with me.. he lost. He annoyed both my brothers whereas gate earned their respect. 

Now I do find it funny that some had mistaken gate for a nice, doormat type of guy just because he does a few considerate things. People that know him in person know better... especially my jock, muscle head brothers. 

Now... gate may be an azzhole but he does have great qualities in him. 


So given this example... who would you consider alpha? It seems, by some descriptions on here, that gates brother would be considered an alpha male just because he sleeps with a bunch of women.... 


Now I may be misunderstanding some of these posts.. which is why I'm asking... id like to get a better understanding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gaia

And to clarify... I don't find the term alpha to be offensive in the least... just the idea that sleeping with tons of women and treating them in essence the way gates brother does.. equates to being alpha.... is what I'm having a hard time swallowing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous

Gaia said:


> And to clarify... I don't find the term alpha to be offensive in the least... just the idea that sleeping with tons of women and treating them in essence the way gates brother does.. equates to being alpha.... is what I'm having a hard time swallowing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think I will always associate ALPHA with bedding many women ..the connotation has been made far too many times .... WITH PRAISE I might add....this sickens me. 

It is now branded in my brain...

So long as BETA is still referred to as p*ssy whipped doormats.., I think it is reasonable for some of us to jump on the Alphas as Bad Boy User Players who bed & run. If one wants to redeem the ALPHA, then let's redeem the BETA along with it...it's only fair....

In Love and War.


----------



## tobio

I HAVE to ask...



Adex said:


> -I'm not as nice to my spouse in terms of helping around the house or with my kid. I don't show her much affection. Whatever she does, I do a bit less. This makes her like me more.


This. Genuinely right. If I thought hubz was being "not as nice", I'd be right pissed off. And yeah me and hubz have had issues about him not being affectionate. It didn't make me like my husband more. It made me very sad actually 

Is this actually part of being more alpha then? Am I misunderstanding? Am I actually denying myself and I truly find that if he is not helping out with the house or kids like he should, and he isn't being muchly affectionate, that on some primal level I like it?

Because really, he has done both of those things in the past and I actually came very close both times to dumping him. I REALLY didn't want to get busy.

Can someone clarify?


----------



## Gaia

Lol I have to be honest... I was always taught that in essence... alpha equatable to ones attitude.... not how many women they slept with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ikaika

Cosmos said:


> As I understand it, it's the Gammas and Lamdas who do the bed-hopping, not the Alphas. The latter might have women falling at their feet, but they are more discerning than the other two - status being high on their list of priorities.


So how does a gamma bed hop if he does not have women falling at his feet?

If I am not mistaken the principle of alpha male is based in the silverback gorilla. He is the only one getting laid... In fact in an actual gorilla tribe the black backs sometimes get sodomized be the alpha male. That is the only sex they get.


----------



## Cosmos

drerio said:


> So how does a gamma bed hop if he does not have women falling at his feet?
> 
> If I am not mistaken the principle of alpha male is based in the silverback gorilla. He is the only one getting laid... In fact in an actual gorilla tribe the black backs sometimes get sodomized be the alpha male. That is the only sex they get.



According to the socio-sexual hierachy referred to earlier in this thread, Alphas lifetime sexual partners = 4x average+, and Lamdas lifetime sexual partners = 10x average+. Initially, I read it that Gammas Lifetime_ voluntary_ sexual partners = 5x average, but now I see there is a decimal point before the 5!

Maybe someone else can answer this question a little better than I can, but I'm guessing the Gammas and Lamdas (of both genders) just aren't that fussy.


----------



## Mavash.

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Thanks everyone, this is a great thread. I sure am learning a lot. So my question is how much of the alpha being depends on physical characteristics and how much is personality? Are all the NBA and NFL guys alphas? Can a short balding guy ever be an alpha? If you are 6'6", built and have great hair, do you ever need to open your mouth?


I've wracked my brain to think of any alpha's I know in real life right now. I can only think of one. He's hot as hell but he's a d!ck so I can't stand him. 

Every time I'm around him (he's my husband's friend) he stares me up and down because yes I'm hotter than his wife. I'm not alone in my hatred of him. Most people have a love/hate relationship with him. Everything he touches turns to gold and he can talk anyone into anything but still he's quite annoying overall.

This is why I say being totally alpha might actually backfire with us nicer ladies.  If I were single I wouldn't give him the time of day. He's way too arrogant for me.


----------



## Ikaika

Cosmos said:


> According to the socio-sexual hierachy referred to earlier in this thread, Alphas lifetime sexual partners = 4x average+, and Lamdas lifetime sexual partners = 10x average+. Initially, I read it that Gammas Lifetime_ voluntary_ sexual partners = 5x average, but now I see there is a decimal point before the 5!
> 
> Maybe someone else can answer this question a little better than I can, but I'm guessing the Gammas and Lamdas (of both genders) just aren't that fussy.


So what parameters were used to measure the different groups? Can you give me a citation? I would like to read the original source myself. Thanks


----------



## Cosmos

drerio said:


> So what parameters were used to measure the different groups? Can you give me a citation? I would like to read the original source myself. Thanks


This is the link that was posted earlier:- Alpha Game: The socio-sexual hierarchy


----------



## Ikaika

Cosmos said:


> This is the link that was posted earlier:- Alpha Game: The socio-sexual hierarchy


So this is not an original source. This is someone's interpretation of some studies done.


----------



## Adex

Being more alpha gets you more sex. Being more alpha gives you more respect. Being DOMINANT gives you the power in your marriage. It's hard for a wife to cheat on an alpha.

Don't be a beta as a man. It's embarrassing and weak. Do everything you can to become the dominant in your marriage if you want your self respect.


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## Cosmos

drerio said:


> So this is not an original source. This is someone's interpretation of some studies done.


Yes, it would seem that it is.


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## Cosmos

Adex said:


> Being more alpha gets you more sex. Being more alpha gives you more respect. Being DOMINANT gives you the power in your marriage. It's hard for a wife to cheat on an alpha.
> 
> Don't be a beta as a man. It's embarrassing and weak. Do everything you can to become the dominant in your marriage if you want your self respect.


I think developing self-respect, high self-esteem and healthy boundaries results in an inner strength that is far more important than having all "the power" in a relationship. Relying on anyone else for our feelings of self-worth is pretty dangerous, IMO.


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## Ikaika

Cosmos said:


> Yes, it would seem that it is.


In my profession conclusion are useless without methodology and measurable parameters... Until someone provides the citation, I will remain a sceptic.


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## SimplyAmorous

Adex said:


> Being more alpha gets you more sex. Being more alpha gives you more respect. Being DOMINANT gives you the power in your marriage. It's hard for a wife to cheat on an alpha.


 No, having a wife who gives a damn about your needs gets you more sex...if your dominance does, she is likely faking it & resenting it all the while. 



> Don't be a beta as a man. It's embarrassing and weak. Do everything you can to become the dominant in your marriage if you want your self respect.


More insults swung to the Beta male.... Can some of you please acknowledge for me that fact that all of us...men & women have different personalities & temperaments...men also have Different levels of Testosterone flowing through their bodies.... this also can affect his behavior.... The higher his testosterone level ...generally the more "confidence" he feels. It's an amazing thing really.

Some people are naturally more Passive...this doesn't mean we need to call them names...belittle them....they are easier to please also ...they are our worlds "peace makers" ........It'd likely be anarchy without some of these wonderful personalities among us .... we need these people in this world to put up with all the bossy dominate aggressive naturally tipped Alpha personalities.... 


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## Gaia

Totally agree simply and love the post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos

drerio said:


> In my profession conclusion are useless without methodology and measurable parameters... Until someone provides the citation, I will remain a sceptic.


I agree. It is an interesting theory, nevertheless.


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## Ikaika

Cosmos said:


> I agree. It is an interesting theory, nevertheless.


It's not a theory until it has supported data.


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## Cosmos

drerio said:


> It's not a theory until it has supported data.


In the scientific sense, yes.


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## Ikaika

Cosmos said:


> In the scientific sense, yes.


I will then remain a sceptic without some measurable parameters. Come back with citations and this will be a worthy discussion.


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## Cosmos

drerio said:


> I will then remain a sceptic without some measurable parameters. Come back with citations and this will be a worthy discussion.


I'm on the fence about this whole concept, Drerio, and to be honest, I don't understand enough about it to either support or oppose it


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## Machiavelli

Ladies, ladies, ladies. All the Alpha/Beta stuff is just an attempt by some guys to hang labels on the main "types" of behaviors typically demonstrated in relationships. If you don't find it valid and you don't believe in a social or sexual hierarchy or in "game," just ignore it and it will all go away. 


BTW, with regard to the "Lambda" type, reread the description closely:

*Those men who have quite literally no interest in conventional male-female sexual relations.* They clearly have their own hierarchy of sorts, but I can't say that I know much about it other than it appears to somehow involve youth, free weights, and mustaches.
Lifetime sexual partners = 10x average+


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## Ikaika

Machiavelli said:


> Ladies, ladies, ladies. All the Alpha/Beta stuff is just an attempt by some guys to hang labels on the main "types" of behaviors typically demonstrated in relationships. If you don't find it valid and you don't believe in a social or sexual hierarchy or in "game," just ignore it and it will all go away.
> 
> 
> BTW, with regard to the "Lambda" type, reread the description closely:
> 
> *Those men who have quite literally no interest in conventional male-female sexual relations.* They clearly have their own hierarchy of sorts, but I can't say that I know much about it other than it appears to somehow involve youth, free weights, and mustaches.
> Lifetime sexual partners = 10x average+


Do *you* have the original scientific paper with the methodology and measurable parameters? Otherwise, anyone can formulate a conclusion based on their own bias. 

I want to see the original studies.


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## ATC529R

watch Rocky I, II, III, IV, V, VI & VII. Repeat!


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## Ikaika

ATC529R said:


> watch Rocky I, II, III, IV, V, VI & VII. Repeat!


And this does what... how about watch this repeatedly... since Rocky is pure fiction and this is not... So since I have no one to give me original source papers, Alpha, beta, etc... seems pretty fictitious.

"Code Red" Full Movie - Surfing Goes Huge At Teahupoo Tahiti - YouTube


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## ATC529R

drerio said:


> And this does what... how about watch this repeatedly... since Rocky is pure fiction and this is not... So since I have no one to give me original source papers, Alpha, beta, etc... seems pretty fictitious.
> 
> "Code Red" Full Movie - Surfing Goes Huge At Teahupoo Tahiti - YouTube


To me, being an alpha male is not about women. It's about always rising to what you are capable of. Rocky is just "my" alpha movie of choice, but it holds many lessons to be learned.


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## Machiavelli

drerio said:


> Do *you* have the original scientific paper with the methodology and measurable parameters? Otherwise, anyone can formulate a conclusion based on their own bias.
> 
> I want to see the original studies.


Original studies of what? Females responding to muscular men more readily when ovulating? Women responding to a man in an Armani suit more positively than the same man in cut-offs? Cheerleaders preferring to get it on with quarterbacks instead of the chess club?


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## Ikaika

Machiavelli said:


> Original studies of what? Females responding to muscular men more readily when ovulating? Women responding to a man in an Armani suit more positively than the same man in cut-offs? Cheerleaders preferring to get it on with quarterbacks instead of the chess club?


Yes... I hear people quoting numbers... I want to see the data that supports those numbers. What are the measurable parameters for an Alpha, Beta, etc? what are they? If there are none, then how does one define them?


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## Ikaika

ATC529R said:


> To me, being an alpha male is not about women. It's about always rising to what you are capable of. Rocky is just "my" alpha movie of choice, but it holds many lessons to be learned.


Like what? What lessons, give me specifics. I keep on contending that this oversimplifies things... Confidence that is what women in general like. Be the man you are to be before you can be a man to a woman... This can be a confident gentleman. Is that alpha?


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## ATC529R

drerio said:


> Like what? What lessons, give me specifics. I keep on contending that this oversimplifies things... Confidence that is what women in general like. Be the man you are to be before you can be a man to a woman... This can be a confident gentleman. Is that alpha?


"You can’t please all the people all the time, so don’t waste your time trying. Your purpose in life is not to make everyone happy."

the best thing you can do is log off, and go after what YOU want.


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## Ikaika

ATC529R said:


> "You can’t please all the people all the time, so don’t waste your time trying. Your purpose in life is not to make everyone happy."
> 
> the best thing you can do is log off, and go after what YOU want.


And, I have to learn to be alpha to know that? Seems to be a principle that everyone can learn. I don't think this is an alpha trait, this is just a grown up trait. 

Let's just say, that no one on here has convinced me that I have to pretend to learn alpha traits... I am assuming that if you really knew me you would probably assume I already have them, but it is not something that I am trying to be. So I will stay logged on, but probably unsubscribe to this thread... not to please you, but simply because the discussion bores me.

I also assume that it would be self-defeating to assume that traits are not just something acquired but also a matter of genetics... so it would assume that the best bet you have to really being alpha is pick the right parents.


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## ATC529R

drerio said:


> And, I have to learn to be alpha to know that? Seems to be a principle that everyone can learn. I don't think this is an alpha trait, this is just a grown up trait.
> 
> Let's just say, that no one on here has convinced me that I have to pretend to learn alpha traits... I am assuming that if you really knew me you would probably assume I already have them, but it is not something that I am trying to be. So I will stay logged on, but probably unsubscribe to this thread... not to please you, but simply because the discussion bores me.
> 
> I also assume that it would be self-defeating to assume that traits are not just something acquired but also a matter of genetics... so it would assume that the best bet you have to really being alpha is pick the right parents.


lose the einstein quote, read something about your subconcious thoughts...and it it/is can be definitely learned


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## RandomDude

I have to admit though, I've never really seen 'beta's become 'alpha's or the 180 thing work - at least with the game itself, don't know about marriage... Some guys just have nice guy syndrome, and first impressions stick.

It's much easier for an alpha to learn how to beta and be accepted. In other words, it's easy for a bad boy to become a nice guy - and it's a great way to convince a lady that you're hot but you're not a jerk (much) hehe

For a beta trying to act alpha though... well, what can I say? Ever seen a nice guy try to be a bad boy? Without people shaking their heads and saying "WTF? That's not you!" :rofl:
First impressions stick, that's what I tell my bros who are still single, better the bad boy impression first then the nice guy one  I can only do so much as a wingman! Heh reminds me of the time I tried to hook up a mate with my cousin sister. He was such a freakin *****...

I extended his chances by (ack) flirting with my own cousin on IM pretending it was my friend, (and she messaged me later telling me that she was wrong about my friend and was surprised "he" can actually tease her lol) but he still blew it.


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## Gaia

This whole conversation brings this to mind....

The New Guy (2002) trailer - YouTube
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude

LOL that never happens in RL, at least with the game

I've tried to help out alot of my mates who had no game in the past, it's just impossible to change them without something to push them over the edge and that's not my responsibility - it's the world's. Not only that, but first impressions stick, admit it 
lol

Funny trailer though, especially:
Dad: And say... WHOS YOUR DADDY?!
*Wife slaps him*
Dad: ... while respecting her as a woman!

lol


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## Gaia

Ummm sometimes.... Not always.... 

An example I can give is... One guy who tried getting with me made a great first impression... but what ruined it was when he had a friend of his come up to me a few days later to ask if this guy could grab my azz.....now that stuck.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude

But how about the guys who got friend-zoned?

My mate got himself friend-zoned at first impression, and he never once managed to get my cousin to see him as more than a friend. Until I erm... "flirted" with my cousin on IM pretending to be him (was teaching him at the same time) with embarrassingly good results - which I mentioned on my previous post lol

Wait... but yeah I guess my cousin DID give him a window of opportunity that one time. Oh nevermind... guess first impressions don't always last...


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## Gaia

Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BjornFree

SimplyAmorous said:


> Some people are naturally more Passive...this doesn't mean we need to call them names...belittle them....they are easier to please also ...they are our worlds "peace makers" ........It'd likely be anarchy without some of these wonderful personalities among us .... we need these people in this world to put up with all the bossy dominate aggressive naturally tipped Alpha personalities....


And some people just love to sit on the side lines and watch the alphas bash each other with clubs.


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## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> Ladies, ladies, ladies. All the Alpha/Beta stuff is just an attempt by some guys to hang labels on the main "types" of behaviors typically demonstrated in relationships. If you don't find it valid and you don't believe in a social or sexual hierarchy or in "game,"* just ignore it and it will all go away.*


There is a guy over on another thread dealing with " Threesomes and so fourth." Everybody's warning him about the potential dangers of threesomes on a marriage, and he's saying that the evidence is basically anecdotal, so it one cannot rely on it.

In other words, simply ignore evidence because it is not based in real science, and everything will be ok.
What was really funny was when he posted evidence showing that only a small percentage of people who tried cocaine were in danger of getting hooked on it.:rofl:


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## Caribbean Man

SimplyAmorous said:


> More insults swung to the Beta male.... *Can some of you please acknowledge for me that fact that all of us...men & women have different personalities & temperaments...men also have Different levels of Testosterone flowing through their bodies.... this also can affect his behavior.... The higher his testosterone level ...generally the more "confidence" he feels. It's an amazing thing really.*
> 
> Some people are naturally more Passive...this doesn't mean we need to call them names...belittle them....they are easier to please also ...they are our worlds "peace makers" ........It'd likely be anarchy without some of these wonderful personalities among us .... we need these people in this world to put up with all the bossy dominate aggressive naturally tipped Alpha personalities....


The answer is a resound YES, people have different personalities , and a general mix of ALL different type of personalities is what makes the world an exciting place.

Without the " Beta " type personality traits, the world world would be full and overflowing with aggression and hate. Relationships and family would be impossible. Greed would rule supreme.

But without the Alpha personality traits, life would be mundane. There would nothing exciting, no thrill of competing and achieving anything, no " guts and glory."No NFL , no NBA, no NASCAR , no olympic games, no gold medals, politics would cease to exist and we would all be living like " Alice in Wonderland."

There are good Beta traits as well as good Alpha traits.
There are bad Beta traits as well as bad Alpha traits.

What is needed is a good mix of both to make a well balanced person and marriage.

*In the end, it all comes down to what YOU put into your marriage.*

Put NEGATIVE Alpha traits and resentment will build. Put POSITIVE Alpha traits, and you will get healthy respect, and strong boundaries.

Put NEGATIVE beta traits and you have to deal with a passive aggressive husband.
Put POSITIVE Beta traits, and you will have the sweetest man who understands your needs, and is happy fulfilling them.

Take an honest Beta man with a few positive Alpha traits, join him to a strong, independent, honest , decent woman,
[ Alpha traits ] and you will have a good chance of a successful marriage.

Take that same Beta man with a few positive Alpha traits and join him to a conniving , deceitful , woman with low morals and you have a marriage made in hell. 

Take a strong independent woman with positive Alpha traits, join her with a narcissistic , selfish man with negative Alpha traits and you will have a marriage made in hell. They will fight over everything.

Take a decent , honest, sweet woman with positive Beta traits and join her to a narcissistic, selfish man with negative Alpha traits and that marriage is bound to fail.
She will become a domestic violence victim.

So it all comes down to YOU.
What type of person you are, and what YOU bring into your marriage.


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## Open up now let it all go

I like the whole concept of Alpha/Beta by seeing it as a man that incorporates the good aspects of both designations. Preserving your self-respect and simultaneously being flexible if needed. Standing up for yourself when it's needed but otherwise also give your partner the oppertunity to be herself.

But this whole alpha, beta, delta, gamma, omega, theta whatever theory is just pushing it to far. It's completely focussed on the dating scene where apparently your status is defined by the amount of people that laugh at your jokes at a party and the amount/quality (read physical appearance) of the women you pull and bed. On top of that it seems to be written by a bunch of guys that want to apply almost mathematical rules to a dynamic, intangible concept of human sexuality. It's understandable, because who doesn't want to have a concrete set of rules to adhere to and become succesful? But futile.

I don't think there's much value in self-diagnosing as a low sex-market-value delta man that landed a tier 3 women or whatever else fancy terminology they came up with. It's a recipe for a self-esteem disaster.


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## BjornFree

Open up now let it all go said:


> But this whole alpha, beta, delta, gamma, omega, theta whatever theory is just pushing it to far. It's completely focussed on the dating scene where apparently your status is defined by the amount of people that laugh at your jokes at a party and the amount/quality (read physical appearance) of the women you pull and bed. On top of that it seems to be written by a bunch of guys that want to apply almost mathematical rules to a dynamic, intangible concept of human sexuality. It's understandable, because who doesn't want to have a concrete set of rules to adhere to and become succesful? But futile.


The entire system was actually designed by kids comparing penis sizes in the shower.


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## Open up now let it all go

Hehe, that's a good recap of what I've wrote.


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## SimplyAmorous

Oh you explain everything so very well CaribeanMan :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:....love all these scenarios you put forth .... 



> There are good Beta traits as well as good Alpha traits.
> There are bad Beta traits as well as bad Alpha traits.












Taken from this thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/23220-definitive-alpha-beta-thread.html Post #5 

Athol Kay says: 



> Alpha = attraction building = Dopamine = In Love = Excitement
> Beta = comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment"[/I]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This post may be helpful as well. Married Man Sex Life: Be Both Alpha And Beta: The Journey Is The Reward





> *CaribeanMan said*
> 
> Put NEGATIVE beta traits and you have to deal with a passive aggressive husband.
> Put POSITIVE Beta traits, and you will have the sweetest man who understands your needs, and is happy fulfilling them.


 Happy to say my husband is ALL Positive







- he may be on the passive side, but passive aggressive, I'd be pulling my hair out with one of those







...I'd never have the patience for it (one of my flaws).

I may have to ask him a question to get something out of him -but he never runs, sweeps, hides...I can always count on an honest answer -whether I like it or not. Love that. 



> *CaribeanMan said*: Take an honest Beta man with a few positive Alpha traits, join him to a strong, independent, honest , decent woman,
> [ Alpha traits ] and you will have a good chance of a successful marriage.


 Even if I'm not a Career woman, I feel I am pretty strong minded (maybe too much at times)... this is how I see US ..... His few ALPHA traits... still looking good for his age...never caters for acceptance ...I'd say he can be very charming -when he gets to talking/ telling a story ~he should talk more though. 



> Take that same Beta man with a few positive Alpha traits and join him to a conniving , deceitful , woman with low morals and you have a marriage made in hell.


 Makes me think of Pink's video >> P!nk - Please Don't Leave Me - YouTube



> Take a strong independent woman with positive Alpha traits, join her with a narcissistic , selfish man with negative Alpha traits and you will have a marriage made in hell. They will fight over everything.


 I've joked about this ....I think the only thing good about such a Union would be the







....but they'd burn the rest of the house down along with the bedroom.

Mentioning P!nk again here........ her & her husband is like this ...Corey Hart - they can't live with each other, but can't live without each other either ... break-up /make up/ divorce / remarriage, so much drama ....









Alphas are generally of a Choleric Temperament...Assertive Leading comes natural to them - it even suggests the Choleric is best matched with a laid back Phelgmatic .....saying in love & Romance ...." Often phlegmatic personalities are their choice when seeking the perfect partner. 
4 Temperaments in Love  

Temperament Traits -scroll down half the page - very telling :








 Temperaments Traits / Analysis / Comparisons / Opposites 











> Take a decent , honest, sweet woman with positive Beta traits and join her to a narcissistic, selfish man with negative Alpha traits and that marriage is bound to fail.
> She will become a domestic violence victim.


 I just watched one of these go through a divorce, mentioned it in earlier post...she left him for an a Chubby Beta & she's never been more happy in her life, but she is struggling with the baggage of how her narcissistic husband abused her for yrs. It's gonna take time. 



> So it all comes down to YOU.
> What type of person you are, and what YOU bring into your marriage.


 Absolutely :smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## BjornFree

>


I like this.


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## SimplyAmorous

BjornFree said:


> I like this.


My husband found that one for me .... here is one for a Pervert







... you'd think I'd have something better to do with my time, ha ha


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## Caribbean Man

SimplyAmorous said:


> My husband found that one for me .... here is one for a Pervert
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... you'd think I'd have something better to do with my time, ha ha


SA,
I must say that you and your husband are a good match. I also admire the way you keep your family.
Whatever you guys doing right, just keep doing it.
And best wishes to you and your family!

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread!


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## WyshIknew

Adex said:


> Being more alpha gets you more sex. Being more alpha gives you more respect. Being DOMINANT gives you the power in your marriage. It's hard for a wife to cheat on an alpha.
> 
> Don't be a beta as a man. It's embarrassing and weak. Do everything you can to become the dominant in your marriage if you want your self respect.


But how do you know if you are alpha or beta when you are a happily married man?

I'm sure that I have many way too beta traits, I enjoy cooking,
I help with the laundry and cleaning because I think it is only right that I help.
My wife recently had a little weep when she got back from work as she was feeling very down. I held her tight to try and soothe her but her weeping affected me so badly that I started blubbing too. I assume that makes me so beta that I'm off the scale.
How would an alpha respond to a sobbing wife? If it is anything less than try to comfort her with tenderness and compassion then I do not want to be too alpha.

I have always done some alpha things, it's just that since reading MMSLP I am using them more strategically and with more knowledge of why I do them.

Sex? Adex, I am 55 and Mrs Wysh is younger. She humps my brains out and if I'm horny and she can't or doesn't feel like PIV (very rare) she will ensure I get release in some other way.

I can't really advise anyone on alpha beta whatever. All I can say is what works for me. I help out around the house, I show her and tell her that I love her as often as possible without being a pain. She knows that I have her back at all times and will support and protect her.
However I won't accept any nonsense and will call her out on it as she will call me out on my nonsense.
I try to keep myself fit for her.
We do things together (I think this is important). You can be the most alpha dude around but if you come home after a days work, chug a few beers, eat a pizza and play WOW or Everquest till 1 am don't be surprised if your wife goes of with some fit dude who tells her how interesting and exciting she is.


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## barcafan

I think a lot of this comes down to miscommunication....I think every time someone reads "alpha male" they automatically think "bad boy"....but bad boys are just that.....boys....

SimplyAmorous I really like that chart!


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## Cosmos

^ :iagree:

I like the chart SA posted, too. It puts this whole concept into perspective.

@WyshIknew: There's nothing more manly than a man who is strong enough to show his tender side, the way you describe.

IMO, it's all about finding the sort of partner who complements our personality traits. 

Although my partner is as loving and tender as I could wish him to be, if he didn't also possess his strong masculine traits I doubt that we would be a good match.


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## SimplyAmorous

WyshIknew said:


> My wife recently had a little weep when she got back from work as she was feeling very down. I held her tight to try and soothe her but her weeping affected me so badly that I started blubbing too. I assume that makes me so beta that I'm off the scale.


I love this ~ My husband is this way also, and you know what ...I deeply cherish that .. I don't need my friends when I am down, I have him ~ he is my comforter no matter what emotion comes down the pike.... 

I've only seen him tear up maybe twice out of sadness...in public... at his Dad's funeral & the funeral of a Co-worker standing in line to greet his wife...I can't say I have EVER seen him break under FEAR or STRESS though, he stands strong before us...


But the HAPPY tears, comforting tears/ "thankful tears"- those moving moments of Gratitude welling up..... Oh so many times... he is high on the richter scale of showing tender emotion, sometimes he catches me off guard...and then we both start ... just hearing a song can get me going..... "*Cats in the cradle*" / "*Remember When"* / "*Everything I own*" to name a few ... MY goodness, get it off the radio!!







Ha ha

Then I'll start laughing loudy right after over how drippy & sappy we are. Not long ago, dug out my old dairy - those teen love letters in my hand, reading some out loud, oh my -- tears like a faucet ..plus I was laughing at some of the crazy things I said, I seemed so insecure in some ways......I was a MESS...he comes up behind me & holds me, he is right there with me... our noses touch, tears down both our faces... Yeah, we're a sappy pair ...but we wouldn't want it any other way. These are great moments, the type you carry with you a lifetime. 



> *Cosmos said:* @WyshIknew: There's nothing more manly than a man who is strong enough to show his tender side, the way you describe.


 I so feel the same > strongly, it is a sign of true vulnerability with your spouse...this is the deepest connection one can have with another.


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## Cosmos

> SimplyAmorous said:-
> I so feel the same > strongly, it is a sign of true vulnerability with your spouse...this is the deepest connection one can have with another.


And allowing ourselves to reveal our vulnerable side to our spouse / partner takes great courage, IMO.


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## Emerald

Adex said:


> That is true. Men are taught by society to be a gentleman, the nice guy, romantic, and the girl will love you for it. It has caused a whole generation of wimps and metrosexuals.
> 
> The truth is, women think they want that but they really don't. Deep down inside, women want a strong confident man that isn't super nice to them, will disagree with things from time to time, won't be their servant, will tell them what to do, and will lead them. It's what turns a girl on.


LOL! How do you know what all women want? Do you have daughters? Are you teaching them to be with mean men instead of nice men?

What is wrong with metrosexuals? Guys who are impeccably groomed with fashionable clothes?


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## WyshIknew

Cosmos said:


> And allowing ourselves to reveal our vulnerable side to our spouse / partner takes great courage, IMO.


I don't know that it takes courage but love and trust definitely.

At the time I didn't feel particularly manly or courageous I can assure you.
I felt that I should have stood taller for her, perhaps a more alpha person would have been more of a rock, I don't know.


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## SimplyAmorous

WyshIknew said:


> I don't know that it takes courage but love and trust definitely.
> 
> At the time I didn't feel particularly manly or courageous I can assure you.
> I felt that I should have stood taller for her, perhaps a more alpha person would have been more of a rock, I don't know.


It IS Courageous (maybe another scenario) when someone has allowed fear to stop them in the past from opening up/ sharing their soul ....not knowing how they'll be received....but determined to overcome this, not allowing fear to paralyze them, but giving in to sharing their deepest 'whatever". 



> *WyshIknew said*: My wife recently had a little weep when she got back from work as she was feeling very down. I held her tight to try and soothe her but her weeping affected me so badly that I started blubbing too. I assume that makes me so beta that I'm off the scale.
> How would an alpha respond to a sobbing wife? If it is anything less than try to comfort her with tenderness and compassion then I do not want to be too alpha.


 Reading this over again, I do suppose you could have stood stronger, comforted her with words of support...without yourself getting caught up in the tears.....

Not sure what the issue was at work, but listening to her 1st, acknowledging how she feels -women need this (this is tenderness & compassion)......then if there's some way to gleam the good in any of it...in a way to get her smiling, YES, this would be very ALPHA....or even GOOD BEtA... I don't know ! 

If you could get her to laugh for instance - anything remotely assinine about the characters that hurt her, USE that... My husband does this for me... If someone hurts me unfairly & I'm all bent out of shape.... he will remind me who I am dealing with with some off cuff slicing comment making fun of them... In it's twisted way- he is exalting *me*... showing he is on MY SIDE, plus brings a little humor to it.. I :rofl: & I want to hug him for bringing me out of my funk. 

This is how we roll with the punches of life I guess. I do the same for him, he's come home all irritated with his Boss, swearing....madness at work between the guys....I praise all his efforts, then pull every idiot card I can on the people making his life hell, remind him if he wasn't there, they'd probably shoot each other...and he agrees. Just talking about it brings some calm to most people, getting it out. People don't want advice, they want heard, understood and accepted for their feelings. Husbands who give this to their wives are the smart ones. 

Well WyshIknew....do you get a feel if your wife LIKES you the way you are, or you feel it is a turn off for her??? Sure you might have went a little overboard on this one.. we all miss it sometimes. 

Has your wife ever commented on your free flowing emotion .. some women DON'T LIKE IT... they don't want to see tears from a man... they also don't care all that much for mushy romance.... too much sensitivity from their men is a turn off. These women would do better to NOT marry a men tipped BETA... as this comes rather natural to him.


----------



## WyshIknew

SimplyAmorous said:


> It IS Courageous (maybe another scenario) when someone has allowed fear to stop them in the past from opening up/ sharing their soul ....not knowing how they'll be received....but determined to overcome this, not allowing fear to paralyze them, but giving in to sharing their deepest 'whatever".
> 
> Reading this over again, I do suppose you could have stood stronger, comforted her with words of support...without yourself getting caught up in the tears.....
> 
> Not sure what the issue was at work, but listening to her 1st, acknowledging how she feels -women need this (this is tenderness & compassion)......then if there's some way to gleam the good in any of it...in a way to get her smiling, YES, this would be very ALPHA....or even GOOD BEtA... I don't know !
> 
> If you could get her to laugh for instance - anything remotely assinine about the characters that hurt her, USE that... My husband does this for me... If someone hurts me unfairly & I'm all bent out of shape.... he will remind me who I am dealing with with some off cuff slicing comment making fun of them... In it's twisted way- he is exalting *me*... showing he is on MY SIDE, plus brings a little humor to it.. I :rofl: & I want to hug him for bringing me out of my funk.
> 
> This is how we roll with the punches of life I guess. I do the same for him, he's come home all irritated with his Boss, swearing....madness at work between the guys....I praise all his efforts, then pull every idiot card I can on the people making his life hell, remind him if he wasn't there, they'd probably shoot each other...and he agrees. Just talking about it brings some calm to most people, getting it out. People don't want advice, they want heard, understood and accepted for their feelings. Husbands who give this to their wives are the smart ones.
> 
> Well WyshIknew....do you get a feel if your wife LIKES you the way you are, or you feel it is a turn off for her??? Sure you might have went a little overboard on this one.. we all miss it sometimes.
> 
> Has your wife ever commented on your free flowing emotion .. some women DON'T LIKE IT... they don't want to see tears from a man... they also don't care all that much for mushy romance.... too much sensitivity from their men is a turn off. These women would do better to NOT marry a men tipped BETA... as this comes rather natural to him.


Hi, I'm Mrs Wysh and new to this. I don't want to sign on to TAM, however I would like to put my point across in respect of my hubby's tenderness. I haven't been well for 2 weeks and the other day I had a very down (depressing) day. It stems from a number of different things (work and family). Just general worries, etc and things getting on top of me. My husband realised this and was there for me in every way that counts. I don't want someone to take me for granted and let me do everything. We have 4 children and 4 Grandchildren and this, whilst the children were growing up, was extremely tiring, as 2 of the children have problems. ASD & ADHD. When they were young my hubby was working all the time and didn't realise that I was getting very low. In view of this I shut myself away, cut him out and we didn't talk. We have now been together 25 years, married for 22, and in the past few months since my hubby has been reading MMSLP, he has started talking to me about his feelings and about mine. We have a more open relationship (not in the sense of sex. just discussion. ie. we talk about things that worry or concern us). He is there for me, will tell me if I have upset him or if he feels that I am in the wrong (being the Alpha Male). He also helps me with the two boys who have problems and gets them to respect me more. He does have the Beta side to him for instance when I am down he shows that he cares. I love him for all his Alpha and Beta traites as I do not feel that a man should take a woman for granted in the fact that he starts treating her like his mother. Cleaning, caring, etc for him. Why should we. If they want a mother they should not leave home or get married. Anyway, enough of my rant as I just wanted to put the point across that I may be 7 years younger than my hubby and I am not a typical "Romantic" female, as I do not like all the clingy, flowery type of things, so my hubby is the perfect match for me. I have tried to be a bit more feminine and not so much tom boy and he has tried to be more of an average Alpha/Beta male. There is a happy medium and I believe we have both found it. I wish you could all experience the relationship hubby and I are experiencing now in our marriage. Love you Mr Wysh.


----------



## BookOfJob

Adex said:


> Women want the alpha, but how can you attain it? I myself don't think of myself as a pure alpha. I used to be nice and try to get along with everyone. However, over the years I learned that it's better to be more alpha for your career and in your marriage.
> 
> Some things I try to do myself that have helped me:
> 
> -Whenever there's a decision to be made, I try to decide one way or another without hesitation. Even if it's as small as where are we going to eat or what do I want to do. I decide and she follows.
> 
> -I'm not as nice to my spouse in terms of helping around the house or with my kid. I don't show her much affection. Whatever she does, I do a bit less. This makes her like me more.
> 
> My sex life has improved as a result. Any other ideas? Becoming the alpha is a learning process...


Adex,

After 16 pages of discussions and debates, we are unable to come to a single conclusion as the journey of self-improvement that you have embarked on is a controversial one. The battle lines remain unchanged before and after the debate: Those who believe in it understand, those who don't simply frown on it and remain to disagree.

I therefore refuse you my stamp of approval of your endeavor and sentence you to apologize to every single poster on this thread for wasting his/her time.

I sincerely hope that you don't give a dahn and continue on your journey of self discovery. That in itself is a very alpha thing. Congratulations!


----------



## lovelygirl

A wise man is someone who knows the right balance between being an alpha and beta. Is someone who knows when to be one or the other. 

Being always alpha or always beta is just wrong and senseless.


----------



## barcafan

lovelygirl said:


> A *wise* man is someone who knows the right balance between being an alpha and beta. Is someone who knows when to be one or the other.


Are you telling me this is the answer to what Socrates spent his life trying to answer?


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## SimplyAmorous

> *Mrs WyshIknew said*: When they were young my hubby was working all the time and didn't realise that I was getting very low. In view of this I shut myself away, cut him out and we didn't talk.
> 
> We have now been together 25 years, married for 22, and in the past few months since my hubby has been reading MMSLP, he has started talking to me about his feelings and about mine. We have a more open relationship(not in the sense of sex. just discussion. ie. we talk about things that worry or concern us). He is there for me, will tell me if I have upset him or if he feels that I am in the wrong (being the Alpha Male).


Communication is so vital -- being REAL, honest, and yeah, speaking up (even at the risk of a little conflict) -telling the other when they are feeling upset.....like your husband does NOW. :smthumbup:

My husband failed in the past to do this with me...in wanting more affection &







... he was upset... he "stuffed" instead...... Just not wise..... We missed each other too, his lack of opening up with me... just as you & your husband did - ours only in the sexual though.... Everything else was pretty good. 

He knows I want him to tell me WHAT FOR, I don't care the issue, bring it on.... I never get mad, I might go up to him and KISS HIM! Hard for me to understand this problem in people as I am very forthcoming by nature. He is just different than me. 



> so my hubby is the perfect match for me. I have tried to be a bit more feminine and not so much tom boy and he has tried to be more of an average Alpha/Beta male. There is a happy medium and I believe we have both found it. I wish you could all experience the relationship hubby and I are experiencing now in our marriage. Love you Mr Wysh


Awe ~ Love this ending !









So nice to hear your perspective MrsWysh! Congratulations on the rekindling of your marriage - after 22 yrs !

Another Thumps up for MMSL ! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Adex

Most of the women on this board will not agree with the idea of being alpha or dominant, because it goes against our society's ideals of feminism. 

The men on this board who are against the idea of being alpha are either betas or are trying to be politically correct to gain the approval of women on this board.

These ideas I believe in, I rarely talk about to other people and don't even tell my wife about it. It's not something that should be talked about. However, it's an overall sense that should be a given that the man has to have the power and the dominance in the marriage to be happy.

I know a lot of men that read this agree with it, but won't necessarily post about it because it's an opinion that is not popular in our society. However, it's important for it to be expressed so that men everywhere know the truth.

The alpha gets the girls. The alpha gets more sex. People follow the alpha. People respect the alpha. It would be wise for all men in loveless, sexless marriages where they have lost their self respect to learn the ways to become more alpha to take back their marriage.


----------



## jaquen

Adex said:


> The men on this board who are against the idea of being alpha are either betas or are trying to be politically correct to gain the approval of women on this board.


Bull****. I'm a man, on this board, and I'm against the whole idea of "alpha", "beta", sigmaphigamma. It registers to me as a crock of cow manure, lightly steamed, and served with crispy rat dung.

Most of this Greek alphabet crap is basic common sense. Of course a large swath of women are going to fall for a man if he's:

A. Better dressed.
B. Has a decent job.
C. Is attractive.
D. Doesn't have a doormat surgically implanted on his back.

Don't almost all of us know this before we get out of high school?

But here is the kicker. This whole debate supposes that most women fit the above criteria, in large numbers. It supposes that there are a bunch of weak, pathetic Beta/Delta men who, if only they'd get a shot of alpha in their arm, would be able to land one of the plentiful models walking around. 

Well the trouble with that is that, well, it's a FANTASY. Most of the men and women on planet earth are not gorgeous, "tier I", well off, confident, brazen, alpha people who are in search of the same. Most of these "Beta" men you guys lament end up with "Beta" women. Studies have shown that most people end up with someone they consider of comparable attractiveness levels, who have comparable traits. Normalcy is the great equalizer.

BE A MAN. Period. You don't need to get the MMSL to be a freaking man. You don't need to start wearing sex panther, and pull out your old leather jackets to look more like some idea of an "alpha" man. A man can be sweet, considerate, open, emotional, and whatever other big, bad "beta" traits you want to assign, and still not be a pushover, a rug, or a doormat. 

A true man, the kind that will always win out, isn't someone who needs to take a test, or consult a popular fad book. He's someone who is utterly authentic, and doesn't apologize to anyone, man or woman, for who he is. And people who are authentic, and comfortable in their own skins, don't become pushovers because they never feel the need to change in order to please anybody else.

Find out who you are, whoever that is, and live the hell out of your life. The women who get that, who truly get _you_, will follow, and they will never leave. That way you can avoid being on TAM spending endless days, weeks, months, and years trying to crack the code about how to be a man, along side a bunch of other equally as lost men, all trying to figure out how to get the women who vowed to love and cherish them to actually have sex with them.


----------



## Open up now let it all go

jaquen said:


> Bull****. I'm a man, on this board, and I'm against the whole idea of "alpha", "beta", sigmaphigamma. It registers to me as a crock of cow manure, lightly steamed, and served with crispy rat dung.
> 
> Most of this Greek alphabet crap is basic common sense. Of course a large swath of women are going to fall for a man if he's:
> 
> A. Better dressed.
> B. Has a decent job.
> C. Is attractive.
> D. Doesn't have a doormat surgically implanted on his back.
> 
> Don't almost all of us know this before we get out of high school?
> 
> But here is the kicker. This whole debate supposes that most women fit the above criteria, in large numbers. It supposes that there are a bunch of weak, pathetic Beta/Delta men who, if only they'd get a shot of alpha in their arm, would be able to land one of the plentiful models walking around.
> 
> Well the trouble with that is that, well, it's a FANTASY. Most of the men and women on planet earth are not gorgeous, "tier I", well off, confident, brazen, alpha people who are in search of the same. Most of these "Beta" men you guys lament end up with "Beta" women. Studies have shown that most people end up with someone they consider of comparable attractiveness levels, who have comparable traits. Normalcy is the great equalizer.
> 
> BE A MAN. Period. You don't need to get the MMSL to be a freaking man. You don't need to start wearing sex panther, and pull out your old leather jackets to look more like some idea of an "alpha" man. A man can be sweet, considerate, open, emotional, and whatever other big, bad "beta" traits you want to assign, and still not be a pushover, a rug, or a doormat.
> 
> A true man, the kind that will always win out, isn't someone who needs to take a test, or consult a popular fad book. He's someone who is utterly authentic, and doesn't apologize to anyone, man or woman, for who he is. And people who are authentic, and comfortable in their own skins, don't become pushovers because they never feel the need to change in order to please anybody else.
> 
> Find out who you are, whoever that is, and live the hell out of your life. The women who get that, who truly get _you_, will follow, and they will never leave. That way you can avoid being on TAM spending endless days, weeks, months, and years trying to crack the code about how to be a man, along side a bunch of other equally as lost men, all trying to figure out how to get the women who vowed to love and cherish them to actually have sex with them.


I would want to "like" this post but I have no clue how to do that from a mobile device. Is there anyway to acces the full version of this website through android? Full version button that just directs me to the mobile version.

But yeah people are making an entire philosophy if this alpha/beta thing while its just some metafors to describe certain characteristics. Just take the good stuff from it, I don't think there's much benefit in overanalyzing it and extrapolating so much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## missymrs80

Adex said:


> That is true. Men are taught by society to be a gentleman, the nice guy, romantic, and the girl will love you for it. It has caused a whole generation of wimps and metrosexuals.
> 
> The truth is, women think they want that but they really don't. Deep down inside, women want a strong confident man that isn't super nice to them, will disagree with things from time to time, won't be their servant, will tell them what to do, and will lead them. It's what turns a girl on.


I think your heading down the wrong path about what an alpha male is.

My husband gets laid b/c he is a leader, makes smart decisions for us, wines and dines me, handles the finances, takes my thoughts and feelings into consideration when making choices.....i could go on, but mypoint is...it's the mix of alpha and beta that is important.

For god's sake....the alpha thing isnt about bèing a selfish ass


----------



## missymrs80

Machiavelli said:


> Well, I got my first one when I was 11. And that was just the beginning. So I know a lot about getting vaginas.


11?!


----------



## johnnycomelately

Doesn't it worry anybody that you have become a loving and compassionate husband because you are not 'alpha' and you need to have a personality to compensate. Take away that loving, compassionate personality and you are still not 'alpha' and you have nothing to offer. 

She might as well run off with the tennis pro if you are going to be a d¡ck too, without his tan and his abs.


----------



## argyle

Heh. My inclination is to keep things simple. The whole alpha thing is linked to animal studies - and there is usually a dominant animal. Some women are attracted to dominance.

...some men are naturally dominant...some aren't. Women complaining about being married to a true beta male...made a mistake. Oh well. It isn't every man's duty to be an alpha. People are different...if you want an alpha...marry one. If you marry a beta...adjust.

...in practice...in R/S...being self-confident and true to himself is as good as a man can do in terms of being an alpha. That's fair to ask. I suspect men adjust boundaries more easily in a beta position.

Of course, a lot of women confuse an alpha male with their ideal mate. I'd recommend a lot of caution there. Of the men in my life, two were kind and caring and courageous - excellent husbands. Another, while confident and strong, also had half a dozen mistresses and ground his wife (a mild lady) into a complete doormat. Another, also confident and kind and strong, looked out for his family in very trying times, but disciplined his wife (a difficult women) with a bat (old days, different cultures). I'd say they were all alphas. Being an alpha is far from the whole picture. It is perfectly possible to be evil and an alpha.

It is hard, however, to be an alpha and a doormat...the trick is that, generally speaking, a man who is true to himself will give his wife less of what she asks - and will, in the end, accept divorce more readily than a man who compromises himself. An awful lot of successful dominant men are betas at home simply because their boundaries conflict with their wife's and are trying to avoid divorce.

...my take on that particular problem is that, if your wife doesn't generally accept (in reasonable, or somewhat unreasonable circumstances)...
'F*k no, that's not okay with me. Get out of my face. End of discussion.'
...you might as well call up a lawyer anyways.

...besides...an awful lot of women will be much happier with a man who maintains his boundaries instead of someone they can push around. Many of those women are the sort who will stir up conflict over those boundaries. Many men are tempted to adjust their boundaries in the face of sheer persistence. Overall, unless there's a better reason for change than 'she'd like it'...I'd recommend that you not do it. 'she'd like it...and will do this in exchange' is much safer.

...the thing I haven't figured out...what do you do if, when being true to yourself, you're naturally a d*k? Some men are just d*ks. The couple we met...the husband seems to be a complete d*k outside the house...and turns into a henpecked beta inside the house. Probably it is better than being a d*k at home...dunno...still...she seemed unhappy. Life rarely has perfect solutions.

I dunno though - I do think the 'alpha' thing isn't complete h*s*t. I just think it is a sufficiently complex, loaded phrase that separating the components into stuff like self-confidence, boundary maintenance, sexuality, protectiveness, ... reduces the amount of talking at cross-purposes. Some of those things...most people can change. Others...not so much. For the things that can change...expecting anything but slow change is a recipe for failure. Unfortunately, very many marital problems are based on people being unwilling to accept that their mates are unlikely to change significantly.

--Argyle


----------



## Machiavelli

missymrs80 said:


> 11?!


I was a year ahead in school, too. College junior at 19. I was always around older girls. I never dated a younger girl until I was 21. She was only 18 and I was embarrassed to be a cradle robber.


----------



## jaquen

Machiavelli said:


> I was a year ahead in school, too. College junior at 19. I was always around older girls. I never dated a younger girl until I was 21. She was only 18 and I was embarrassed to be a cradle robber.


How old was the other party when you were 11?


----------



## Lyris

> Bull****. I'm a man, on this board, and I'm against the whole idea of "alpha", "beta", sigmaphigamma. It registers to me as a crock of cow manure, lightly steamed, and served with crispy rat dung.
> 
> Most of this Greek alphabet crap is basic common sense. Of course a large swath of women are going to fall for a man if he's:
> 
> A. Better dressed.
> B. Has a decent job.
> C. Is attractive.
> D. Doesn't have a doormat surgically implanted on his back.
> 
> Don't almost all of us know this before we get out of high school?
> 
> But here is the kicker. This whole debate supposes that most women fit the above criteria, in large numbers. It supposes that there are a bunch of weak, pathetic Beta/Delta men who, if only they'd get a shot of alpha in their arm, would be able to land one of the plentiful models walking around.
> 
> Well the trouble with that is that, well, it's a FANTASY. Most of the men and women on planet earth are not gorgeous, "tier I", well off, confident, brazen, alpha people who are in search of the same. Most of these "Beta" men you guys lament end up with "Beta" women. Studies have shown that most people end up with someone they consider of comparable attractiveness levels, who have comparable traits. Normalcy is the great equalizer.
> 
> BE A MAN. Period. You don't need to get the MMSL to be a freaking man. You don't need to start wearing sex panther, and pull out your old leather jackets to look more like some idea of an "alpha" man. A man can be sweet, considerate, open, emotional, and whatever other big, bad "beta" traits you want to assign, and still not be a pushover, a rug, or a doormat.
> 
> A true man, the kind that will always win out, isn't someone who needs to take a test, or consult a popular fad book. He's someone who is utterly authentic, and doesn't apologize to anyone, man or woman, for who he is. And people who are authentic, and comfortable in their own skins, don't become pushovers because they never feel the need to change in order to please anybody else.
> 
> Find out who you are, whoever that is, and live the hell out of your life. The women who get that, who truly get you, will follow, and they will never leave. That way you can avoid being on TAM spending endless days, weeks, months, and years trying to crack the code about how to be a man, along side a bunch of other equally as lost men, all trying to figure out how to get the women who vowed to love and cherish them to actually have sex with them.


Go away with your irritating common sense, Jaquen. You're interrupting people searching for the Magic Alphanator.


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## tonyarz

I am beta for sure.


----------



## Adex

If a man is a beta, then he needs to marry an alpha woman. It would be better for him if his wife uses her dominance respectfully. If he cooks and cleans while she works, but still wants sex, I suppose this situation is ideal for the beta male.

While it is emasculating and while it is not ideal to me, this allows the beta male to be himself, to not have to make the lead decisions, and to follow. However, often times the alpha female may take advantage of this power and abuse it. 

I suppose the point of this whole thread is to help all those men out there that have wives that cheat on them, that don't give them sex, or that don't respect them. A large reason for this is that these men are not the alpha or dominant in their relationship.

In these instances, it is imperative for the man to man up. If he does, he will see his marriage improve as he wants.


----------



## Machiavelli

jaquen said:


> How old was the other party when you were 11?


13. She was an old hand.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

drerio said:


> I did not say that... and that is obviously not part of the script for being alpha. I just suggest that you can't force something that you are not.


That is likely because you have a limited view of waht constitutes "alpha."


----------



## Cosmos

Adex said:


> If a man is a beta, then he needs to marry an alpha woman. It would be better for him if his wife uses her dominance respectfully. If he cooks and cleans while she works, but still wants sex, I suppose this situation is ideal for the beta male.
> 
> While it is emasculating and while it is not ideal to me, this allows the beta male to be himself, to not have to make the lead decisions, and to follow. However, often times the alpha female may take advantage of this power and abuse it.
> 
> I suppose the point of this whole thread is to help all those men out there that have wives that cheat on them, that don't give them sex, or that don't respect them. A large reason for this is that these men are not the alpha or dominant in their relationship.
> 
> In these instances, it is imperative for the man to man up. If he does, he will see his marriage improve as he wants.


I think this could be placing responsibility where it doesn't belong. If a woman cheats on her husband, refuses him sex and doesn't respect him, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's because he's not man enough (or alpha - call it what you will), it's because she's a cheater and has as much respect for him as she has for herself - zilch.

In instances like this it is, indeed, important that a man 'mans up,' but it doesn't necessarily follow that his wife will become a better person...


----------



## Open up now let it all go

+ The ideal beta man's situation is that he cooks and cleans while his wife goes to work until she decides to abuse/take advantage of the poor sob? Wait what?


----------



## MaritimeGuy

I perused the link being cited here to promote the idea of being more alpha. The Sixteen Commandments Of Poon « Chateau Heartiste

Apparently there are sixteen commandments. Take these for what they're worth. One in particular that caught my attention was the following:

V. Adhere to the golden ratio

Give your woman 2/3 of everything she gives you. For every three calls or texts, give her two back. Three declarations of love earn two in return. Three gifts; two nights out. Give her two displays of affection and stop until she has answered with three more. When she speaks, you reply with fewer words. When she emotes, you emote less. The idea behind the golden ratio is twofold — it establishes your greater value by making her chase you, and it demonstrates that you have the self-restraint to avoid getting swept up in her personal dramas. Refraining from reciprocating everything she does for you in equal measure instills in her the proper attitude of belief in your higher status. In her deepest loins it is what she truly wants.

No one can seriously think these are the characteristics of being a good spouse.


----------



## Cosmos

MaritimeGuy said:


> V. Adhere to the golden ratio
> 
> Give your woman 2/3 of everything she gives you. For every three calls or texts, give her two back. Three declarations of love earn two in return. Three gifts; two nights out. Give her two displays of affection and stop until she has answered with three more. When she speaks, you reply with fewer words. When she emotes, you emote less. The idea behind the golden ratio is twofold — it establishes your greater value by making her chase you, and it demonstrates that you have the self-restraint to avoid getting swept up in her personal dramas. Refraining from reciprocating everything she does for you in equal measure instills in her the proper attitude of belief in your higher status. In her deepest loins it is what she truly wants.
> 
> No one can seriously think these are the characteristics of being a good spouse.


:iagree:

It might work for some, but it wouldn't with me. Fortunately, my partner enjoys 'the chase' as much as I revel in being 'chased.' It increases his masculinity, in my eyes, and makes me desire him even more. A man playing hard to get would be a huge turn off to me.


----------



## argyle

...near as I can tell...dominance displays are related to being an alpha, at least in the wild.

...from observation...(not that I do this...it'd work...I just choose not to...)...many women are likely to become obsessed over and stalk men who treat them as low-status individuals. My favorite is this university professor we know...who spent 5 years following an absolute unemployed slug of a man...who never admitted to seeing her...and who eventually moved in with his baby-mama. She still stalked him. She was young and remains reasonably attractive...

...so...yes...those poon commandments probably work with some women. I even believe that they work better in marriage than cringing a lot. They probably aren't optimal in general.

The problem here is that, while being an alpha is related to being dominant, it isn't necessarily related to being a good mate. For example, one way to show dominance (and this does work) is to make sure that your wife knows that she is the no 2 mate - and that one of your mistresses has higher status than her. The importance of alpha behavior most likely varies a fair bit with the woman. I suspect that complaining about insufficiently alpha men is often related to being a fairly immature woman. In reality, with decent self-control, it is fairly easy to cede dominance to whatever degree is preferred for most sane individuals.

However, being a bit dominant and preserving your own boundaries will tend to be more attractive than cringing in a corner saying 'yes dear, sorry dear' - but I suspect it is far from the whole story in a marriage. That said, I do believe that 'listening' and 'changing' are oversold in marriage - and that a certain amount of firmness is probably preferable in general.

...however, bear in mind, in my wife's home country (full of violent alpha males)...there is a tradition...around age 70+...where the women - having been oppressed all their lives...and now becoming physically stronger than their older husbands...start dressing their husbands in rags and feeding them dogfood.

--Argyle


----------



## Adex

MaritimeGuy said:


> I perused the link being cited here to promote the idea of being more alpha. The Sixteen Commandments Of Poon « Chateau Heartiste
> 
> Apparently there are sixteen commandments. Take these for what they're worth. One in particular that caught my attention was the following:
> 
> V. Adhere to the golden ratio
> 
> Give your woman 2/3 of everything she gives you. For every three calls or texts, give her two back. Three declarations of love earn two in return. Three gifts; two nights out. Give her two displays of affection and stop until she has answered with three more. When she speaks, you reply with fewer words. When she emotes, you emote less. The idea behind the golden ratio is twofold — it establishes your greater value by making her chase you, and it demonstrates that you have the self-restraint to avoid getting swept up in her personal dramas. Refraining from reciprocating everything she does for you in equal measure instills in her the proper attitude of belief in your higher status. In her deepest loins it is what she truly wants.


Exactly. I fully agree with this. Men will have better relationships with their wives if they follow this.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

WyshIknew said:


> But was that attraction because he is or was a succesful athlete, fairly wealthy and his success has left him feeling very confident about himself?
> 
> If he wasn't very good at throwing a ball through a hole would he be as attractive?


In my humble opinion, the attraction was due to his physical height. There was intense nonverbal energy swirling around in the room however the man himself was pretty much a chill dude.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

MaritimeGuy said:


> The idea behind the golden ratio is twofold — it establishes your greater value by making her chase you ...


This is one of the greatest threads I can remember here, I'm learning so much. Are we saying that the alpha man wants to be chased by his wife?


----------



## Mavash.

Adex said:


> If a man is a beta, then he needs to marry an alpha woman. It would be better for him if his wife uses her dominance respectfully. If he cooks and cleans while she works, but still wants sex, I suppose this situation is ideal for the beta male.
> 
> While it is emasculating and while it is not ideal to me, this allows the beta male to be himself, to not have to make the lead decisions, and to follow. However, often times the alpha female may take advantage of this power and abuse it.


Nope didn't work. I was an alpha female married to a beta man. Loved sex, made the money and my marriage still went to crap.

To fix this I've had to back down and submit.


----------



## Mavash.

MaritimeGuy said:


> V. Adhere to the golden ratio
> 
> Give your woman 2/3 of everything she gives you. For every three calls or texts, give her two back. Three declarations of love earn two in return. Three gifts; two nights out. Give her two displays of affection and stop until she has answered with three more. When she speaks, you reply with fewer words. When she emotes, you emote less. The idea behind the golden ratio is twofold — it establishes your greater value by making her chase you, and it demonstrates that you have the self-restraint to avoid getting swept up in her personal dramas. Refraining from reciprocating everything she does for you in equal measure instills in her the proper attitude of belief in your higher status. In her deepest loins it is what she truly wants.


I can see where this might work if you're having problems but I personally didn't get married to 'chase' my husband.

Right now he's all in and I'm matching that. It's both of us giving 100% and that's the way I like it. I don't keep score unless HE backs off first.


----------



## Cosmos

> Originally Posted by MaritimeGuy View Post
> I perused the link being cited here to promote the idea of being more alpha. The Sixteen Commandments Of Poon « Chateau Heartiste
> 
> Apparently there are sixteen commandments. Take these for what they're worth. One in particular that caught my attention was the following:
> 
> V. Adhere to the golden ratio
> 
> Give your woman 2/3 of everything she gives you. For every three calls or texts, give her two back. Three declarations of love earn two in return. Three gifts; two nights out. Give her two displays of affection and stop until she has answered with three more. When she speaks, you reply with fewer words. When she emotes, you emote less. The idea behind the golden ratio is twofold — it establishes your greater value by making her chase you, and it demonstrates that you have the self-restraint to avoid getting swept up in her personal dramas. Refraining from reciprocating everything she does for you in equal measure instills in her the proper attitude of belief in your higher status. In her deepest loins it is what she truly wants.





> Adex replied:-
> 
> Exactly. I fully agree with this. Men will have better relationships with their wives if they follow this.


Some men, Adex, but by no means all. Many women, myself included, value themselves highly enough for this to have the opposite effect.


----------



## Machiavelli

Ten_year_hubby said:


> In my humble opinion, the attraction was due to his physical height. There was intense nonverbal energy swirling around in the room however the man himself was pretty much a chill dude.


It really must be seen to be appreciated.


----------



## Machiavelli

Mavash. said:


> I can see where this might work if you're having problems but I personally didn't get married to 'chase' my husband.
> 
> Right now he's all in and I'm matching that. It's both of us giving 100% and that's the way I like it. *I don't keep score unless* HE backs off first.


So, you _do_ keep score. The thing is, you'd never notice anything about the Golden Ratio, you'd just figure you were even. I don't worry about keeping score either, but I do consciously moderate being the first to say "i Love You" and it helps that she sees "women dripping off me" as she puts it, in my work setting. This is important, since she's out-earning me at the moment.


----------



## Cre8ify

The best way for me to establish the proper pursuit has nothing to do with saying ILY less or not engaging in conversation. It is being unavailable, i.e. made plans to watch election returns with buddies, Friday happy hours which seem to have me joining her in progress, etc.

She would rather do those things with me but I planned otherwise. She still gets her share, just not everything she wants.


----------



## Mavash.

Machiavelli said:


> So, you _do_ keep score. The thing is, you'd never notice anything about the Golden Ratio, you'd just figure you were even. I don't worry about keeping score either, but I do consciously moderate being the first to say "i Love You"


Busted. Yes it's true I am aware of how much he puts in. Think rubber band. If he's in, I'm in. If he pulls back I pull back. 

I'm DONE being the engine in this marriage. It wasn't even for a long time that's for sure and I kinda knew it but not really.


----------



## Machiavelli

Mavash. said:


> Busted. Yes it's true I am aware of how much he puts in. Think rubber band. If he's in, I'm in. If he pulls back I pull back.
> 
> I'm DONE being the engine in this marriage. It wasn't even for a long time that's for sure and I kinda knew it but not really.


The thing is, he wasn't putting in anywhere near the Golden Ratio. Instead of putting in 2 nice things for your 3 nice things, it was more like 1/2 nice thing for your 10 nice things. That's not the Golden Ratio.


----------



## jaquen

Adex said:


> I suppose the point of this whole thread is to help all those men out there that have wives that cheat on them, that don't give them sex, or that don't respect them. A large reason for this is that these men are not the alpha or dominant in their relationship.
> 
> In these instances, it is imperative for the man to man up. If he does, he will see his marriage improve as he wants.


A man who's truly being "alpha", as it's been described ad nauseum, wouldn't put up with a woman who cheats. He'd cuss her ass out, walk out, or kick her out, and look for the next lady.

So, by your definition, a man actually should get "alpha" enough to break up with his loser wife.


----------



## In_The_Wind

jaquen said:


> A man who's truly being "alpha", as it's been described ad nauseum, wouldn't put up with a woman who cheats. He'd cuss her ass out, walk out, or kick her out, and look for the next lady.
> 
> So, by your definition, a man actually should get "alpha" enough to break up with his loser wife.


Actually the Alpha guy would go nail her best friend before he did all the above


----------



## Cosmos

In_The_Wind said:


> Actually the Alpha guy would go nail her best friend before he did all the above


Actually, I think he'd have more self-respect than that. He'd just kick her to the kerb where she belongs.


----------



## In_The_Wind

Cosmos said:


> Actually, I think he'd have more self-respect than that. He'd just kick her to the kerb where she belongs.


well he would want to get even first I am telling ya


----------



## Cosmos

In_The_Wind said:


> well he would want to get even first I am telling ya


By dropping to her level?


----------



## In_The_Wind

Cosmos said:


> By dropping to her level?


Not a question of dropping to her level its a Alpha thing 

Some animals live in a social structure where the most powerful male in the group is decided by either simple play-fights or even very aggressive battles. The current alpha male must defend his ranking from younger members. When he is too old or not strong enough to win, he loses his position in the group.

The alpha male is ruled by ego, pride, etc Most human females prefer a male that has both characteristics both alpha and beta or a combination just ask any of them on the forum


----------



## jaquen

There sure is a ton of expert alpha male talk on a board filled with men in sh*tastic marriages...


----------



## Cosmos

In_The_Wind said:


> Not a question of dropping to her level its a Alpha thing
> 
> Some animals live in a social structure where the most powerful male in the group is decided by either simple play-fights or even very aggressive battles. The current alpha male must defend his ranking from younger members. When he is too old or not strong enough to win, he loses his position in the group.


In the animal kingdom, alpha males often sodomize younger/weaker males to show their higher status, too. Does this mean that a betrayed alpha spouse should also sodomize his WS' male friends?


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Cosmos said:


> Does this mean that a betrayed alpha spouse should (would) also sodomize his WS' male friends?


Now that would be getting even all right! Straight out of Pulp Fiction


----------



## argyle

...I wonder if it might be more useful to think of the alpha thing as something that many women respond to...as opposed to blindly imitating the actions of alpha gorillas? I haven't seen that many women actively pursuing our hairy cousins.

But yes...most likely...putting up with a disrespectful, cheating wife is most likely inconsistent with being an alpha. The first step most likely involves kicking her to the curb. And, is an excellent way to avoid being in a lousy marriage.

--Argyle


----------



## In_The_Wind

Cosmos said:


> In the animal kingdom, alpha males often sodomize younger/weaker males to show their higher status, too. Does this mean that a betrayed alpha spouse should also sodomize his WS' male friends?[/
> Only in prison ,this is properly discussed in the pegging threads I am sure a few BS would feel that way about the ws male friends
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

In_The_Wind said:


> The alpha male is ruled by ego, pride, etc Most human females prefer a male that has both characteristics both alpha and beta or a combination just ask any of them on the forum


Quite true for an LTR, but it's all about Alpha for ONS on GNO when ovulating.


----------



## Machiavelli

Cosmos said:


> In the animal kingdom, alpha males often sodomize younger/weaker males to show their higher status, too. Does this mean that a betrayed alpha spouse should also sodomize his WS' male friends?


Prior to 1975, they use to just kill them. Then the Paramour Law was repealed. Sad times.


----------



## Machiavelli

jaquen said:


> There sure is a ton of expert alpha male talk on a board filled with men in sh*tastic marriages...


Glad to offer it, but it seems to me that most of the guys who need it the most ignore it, can't do it, or stick their heads in the sand. One guy told me he didn't want any woman who would be attracted to a six pack. Well...that's pretty dang funny. I think it was Socrates who said most men are fit only for slavery.


----------



## jaquen

Machiavelli said:


> *One guy told me he didn't want any woman who would be attracted to a six pack.*


Wait, what? Why?


----------



## Machiavelli

jaquen said:


> Wait, what? Why?


Guess he considered it "shallow" or something. Needless to say, he was having problems with his wife being attracted to somebody else. He was working hard to be alone.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

jaquen said:


> There sure is a ton of expert alpha male talk on a board filled with men in sh*tastic marriages...


I laffed IRL


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

Machiavelli said:


> Prior to 1975, they use to just kill them. Then the Paramour Law was repealed. Sad times.


The world would be a much better place with this law reinstated.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

In_The_Wind said:


> The alpha male is ruled by *ego*, *pride*, etc Most human females prefer a male that has both characteristics both alpha and beta or a combination just ask any of them on the forum


Absolutely. Me personally I can not stand people, male or female who are egotistical ~ only if they display some human dignity to others society would deem lowlier than themselves would I think they are worth anything at all. I've always gravitated to the good people who didn't think their azz was golden... 



> The *Alpha Traits* are those associated with classic “manly man” strengths. Power, dominance, physical ability, bravery, wealth, cool and confidence. Oh and good genes. These are the things that attract women and turn them on sexually. The Alpha Traits are linked to the dopamine response in women





> The* Beta Traits* are those associated with the strengths of being a nice guy / “family man”. Kindness, being a good listener, the ability to help with the children, dependability, thoughtfulness, compassion and patience. These all create a sense of comfort and safety for the woman, and relax her because she feels that if she became pregnant, the Beta Trait male isn’t going to abandon her and the baby.





> So Alpha Traits create attraction and that “in love” feeling, and Beta Traits create the pair bond and makes her feel relaxed enough to have sex. You need a balance of both Alpha and Beta in a marriage to maximize her desire to have sex with you.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> Glad to offer it, but it seems to me that most of the guys who need it the most ignore it, can't do it, or stick their heads in the sand. *One guy told me he didn't want any woman who would be attracted to a six pack. Well...that's pretty dang funny. *.


This reminds me of a skinny guy in the gym I attend. He looks loaded with cash , and he brings his petite, hottie, girlfriend to the gym to train. 
He keeps hanging around, bringing the dumbbells for her etc, whilst Mr. six - pack abs trainer, in his under armour spandex outfit actully trains his girlfriend, holding her waistline while she does ab rollouts , bending over her whilst she does her dumbbell flyes etc.

So boyfriend is on the sidelines just lookin on while Mr. six-pack is making full body contact with her.

After the workout , she always has a few words 
* in private * with the trainer whilst her boyfriend waits outside.........
:crazy:
Crazy.


----------



## In_The_Wind

The whole point i was trying to make was that yes the alpha dude would kick the WW out to the curb but first he would not only get even ie like nailing her best friend but he would also probably decide to get several ahead I have seen this time and again with guys who i would consider true alpha dawgs thats just my experience


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Are you beating up the boys on the playground again?
> 
> You said the magic word, playground. I tend to like penis and testicle wielding **** sapiens who have out grown the teeter totter. Call me crazy. ;-)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Caribbean Man said:


> This reminds me of a skinny guy in the gym I attend. He looks loaded with cash , and he brings his petite, hottie, girlfriend to the gym to train.
> He keeps hanging around, bringing the dumbbells for her etc, whilst Mr. six - pack abs trainer, in his under armour spandex outfit actully trains his girlfriend, holding her waistline while she does ab rollouts , bending over her whilst she does her dumbbell flyes etc.
> 
> So boyfriend is on the sidelines just lookin on while Mr. six-pack is making full body contact with her.
> 
> 
> 
> After the workout , she always has a few words
> * in private * with the trainer whilst her boyfriend waits outside.........
> :crazy:
> Crazy.


I am beginning to think nearly half of all the men here think this way. God. Okay, this will shock the sh!t out of you but women actually have a brain. We train with fit men and surprise, surprise, we go home to our husbands. Wanna know why I train with a fit guy? Because he f-ing showed me with his body what can be done. Oh, it wasn't his body pressed up against mine either. I didn't have to do the horizontal mambo with him to figure it out, shockingly. He got me down to 17 percent body fat as a 41 year old woman and THAT is why I continue to train with him. Newsflash, it isn't because I want to nail him. Jesus. 
Just so you know, if you compare Mr. Low hanging fruit with money to a young guy with a body and use that as a standard, you are a fool. The only woman who wants a man like that is the same as a man who would want a woman like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Machiavelli said:


> Well, I got my first one when I was 11. And that was just the beginning. So I know a lot about getting vaginas.


Sure you did. The only thing about your posts is that it gives me a laugh. Thank you for that. 
Just so you know, guys who got tail don't brag about it on a website. Ask around here and find any 25 plus man who brags like you do. Grow up cupcake and while that happens, just stop with the whole "What women want". I am plenty sure in what I want and guess what?! Your bs doesn't factor in. Amazing that.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Therealbrighteyes said:


> 1]*I am beginning to think nearly half of all the men here think this way. God. Okay, this will shock the sh!t out of you but women actually have a brain. *
> 
> 
> _I NEVER even implied that women didn't have a brain. In fact, I was talking about her boyfriend who REFUSES to train with her while she is clearly crushing on the trainer.
> If you re read my post without your PERSONAL PREJUDICE, you will clearly see that he is the one without a brain.
> BTW, the trainer is banging her already. He showed me the BBM chats_
> BTW, Absolutely nothing human beings do shock me anymore.
> 
> 2]*We train with fit men and surprise, surprise, we go home to our husbands. Wanna know why I train with a fit guy*?
> 
> _Not really but,
> Maybe because you can afford it?
> 
> My wife prefers to trains with a fit sexy guy because she likes muscled , well toned men.
> So I train her and get to bang her too. Hell sometimes I bang her whilst training her._
> Just in case you didn't get it,
> I am a muscled,well toned , fit sexy man.
> 
> 
> 3]*Because he f-ing showed me with his body what can be done. Oh, it wasn't his body pressed up against mine either. I didn't have to do the horizontal mambo with him to figure it out, shockingly. He got me down to 17 percent body fat as a 41 year old woman and THAT is why I continue to train with him. *
> 
> Good for you!
> My wife is also down to about 17 %bf.
> 
> 4]*Newsflash, it isn't because I want to nail him. Jesus. *
> 
> _I don't think anywhere in my post I even implied that YOU , or any other woman beside little miss hottie ,wanted to nail YOUR personal trainer.
> However I KNOW little miss hottie is nailing the six- pack trainer, whilst her clueless boyfriend stand idly by._
> 
> *Just so you know, if you compare Mr. Low hanging fruit with money to a young guy with a body and use that as a standard, you are a fool. *
> 
> _Actually no,
> He IS A FOOL because all of the trainers , and regulars in the gym know that he is clueless about his girlfriend's escapades
> with the trainer._
> 
> 
> *The only woman who wants a man like that is the same as a man who would want a woman like that.*
> 
> _This I can completely agree with.
> because both of them are lowlifes.
> Sadly though, it is the way of the world. That's why the Coping With Infidelity section in TAM is by far the LARGEST, with over quarter million posts.
> _
> 
> Have a nice day or what's left of it.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



ETA. BTW, I was NEVER one of the " boys on the playground " and I was NEVER afraid of bullies. No matter what gender they were.


----------



## BjornFree

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Sure you did. The only thing about your posts is that it gives me a laugh. Thank you for that.
> Just so you know, guys who got tail don't brag about it on a website. Ask around here and find any 25 plus man who brags like you do. Grow up cupcake and while that happens, just stop with the whole "What women want". I am plenty sure in what I want and guess what?! Your bs doesn't factor in. Amazing that.


lol


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Caribbean Man said:


> ETA. BTW, I was NEVER one of the " boys on the playground " and I was NEVER afraid of bullies. No matter what gender they were.


You are so deluded there are no words. Re-read all of your comments and then come back to me and tell about how much you trust women. We don't all **** everything that moves like you did. Sometimes, just sometimes a hired hand is just that. Talk about projection.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MaritimeGuy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Sure you did. The only thing about your posts is that it gives me a laugh. Thank you for that.
> Just so you know, guys who got tail don't brag about it on a website. Ask around here and find any 25 plus man who brags like you do. Grow up cupcake and while that happens, just stop with the whole "What women want". I am plenty sure in what I want and guess what?! Your bs doesn't factor in. Amazing that.


Something tells me you're not in Miachiavelli's target market.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Therealbrighteyes said:


> just stop with the whole "What women want". I am plenty sure in what I want and guess what?! Your bs doesn't factor in. Amazing that.


Point proven. Where is drerio? Here is your first data point


----------



## BjornFree

Just love reading all the back and forths. Keep em coming.:smthumbup:


----------



## BjornFree

I think most of the alphas on this board have an acute fear of being cheated on. JMO.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You are so deluded there are no words. Re-read all of your comments and then come back to me and tell about how much you trust women. We don't all **** everything that moves like you did. Sometimes, just sometimes a hired hand is just that. Talk about projection.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry lady,
I'm not interested.
Go fight with some other man.

What's important to me right now is my wife's trust.
We have a great relationship , and an absolutely amazing sexual connection.

What ANY OTHER woman think outside of her doesn't matter to me.
Of course I'm **deluded!**
If you, or any other woman had a relationship like ours,
You too would be **deluded!**


----------



## Machiavelli

Caribbean Man said:


> After the workout , *she always has a few words
> * in private * with the trainer* whilst her boyfriend waits outside.........
> :crazy:
> Crazy.


I think I know who you're talking about and I overheard her side of the conversation once:

"Uh..uh..uh..uh..uh..uh..uh..unnnnnnh. Awahhh. You made me bite my lip."


----------



## Cosmos

> So Alpha Traits create attraction and that “in love” feeling, and Beta Traits create the pair bond and makes her feel relaxed enough to have sex. You need a balance of both Alpha and Beta in a marriage to maximize her desire to have sex with you.


:iagree:


----------



## Machiavelli

In_The_Wind said:


> The whole point i was trying to make was that yes the alpha dude would kick the WW out to the curb but first *he would not only get even ie like nailing her best friend but he would also probably decide to get several ahead* I have seen this time and again with guys who i would consider true alpha dawgs thats just my experience


This is true. There is already a line of women forming outside an Alphas bedroom door. All he has to do is yell from the bed, "NEXT!"


----------



## Machiavelli

Therealbrighteyes said:


> He got me down to *17 percent body fat as a 41 year old woman* and THAT is why I continue to train with him. Newsflash, it isn't because I want to nail him. Jesus.


That won't mean anything to 99% of the people who read it, but I highly, highly commend you on your achievement, dedication, and determination. It's good that your trainer knew enough to impart knowledge to you on how to do it, but you're the one who actually went and did it. I salute you.




Therealbrighteyes said:


> Just so you know, if you compare Mr. Low hanging fruit with money to a young guy with a body and use that as a standard, you are a fool. The only woman who wants a man like that is the same as a man who would want a woman like that.


CM's point is that lots of girls, even if this isn't the case for you personally or even the specific woman in the gym story, have both those guys and it's Mr. Low Hanging Fruit that comes to CWI.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> CM's point is that lots of girls, even if this isn't the case for you personally or even the specific woman in the gym story, have both those guys and it's Mr. Low Hanging Fruit that comes to CWI.


Its that simple.

Just look at the TAM statistic.

*Coping With Infidelity.........( 921 viewing).......243,478 posts.
Long Term Success in Marriage..( 65 viewing ).....3,249 posts.*

All it takes is just a little honesty for anybody to see the trend,
And a little common sense for me to protect my own marriage.


----------



## Machiavelli

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Sure you did. The only thing about your posts is that it gives me a laugh. Thank you for that.
> Just so you know, guys who got tail don't brag about it on a website. Ask around here and find any 25 plus man who brags like you do.


Ha ha. I'm glad you find me amusing. I got a good laugh out of that one myself, which is why I posted it, so thanks for teeing that one up for me. As for bragging, I did get an early start, but I'd bet my annual salary that your grand total is a lot higher than mine. I had a very long self-imposed dry spell on "going all the way" as we called it back then, after Jr. High to the end of college, due to religious conviction. That didn't stop girls from trying, though. If it makes you feel better, I've been on a one woman diet since 1983.



Therealbrighteyes said:


> Grow up cupcake and while that happens, just stop with the whole "What women want". I am plenty sure in what I want and guess what?! Your bs doesn't factor in. Amazing that.


Ever heard of female solipsism? What makes you think we're talking about what you personally want? If you're screwing around on a clueless husband who is viscerally afraid of walking into the free weight area of a gym and who's playing WOW all night while you're out with "the girls" til 3 AM, I might be talking about what women like you want, based on your actions. If that's not you, then I'm probably not talking about what you want.


----------



## Machiavelli

Caribbean Man said:


> ...If you re read my post *without your PERSONAL PREJUDICE*,...
> 
> 
> ETA. BTW, I was NEVER one of the " boys on the playground " and I was NEVER afraid of bullies. No matter what gender they were.


The word for today is "solipsism." Many women seem to have a very difficult time comprehending the concept of frequency distributions and bell curves. Any topic can only be perceived in how it affects them personally. Of course, I'm the first to admit that the women of TAM are always, always the notable exceptions to any "female" behaviors I might comment upon. From here on out, my mantra is NAWALT.


----------



## In_The_Wind

Mine is open mouth insert foot or "omif"


----------



## Cosmos

Machiavelli said:


> The word for today is "solipsism." Many women seem to have a very difficult time comprehending the concept of frequency distributions and bell curves. Any topic can only be perceived in how it affects them personally. Of course, I'm the first to admit that the women of TAM are always, always the notable exceptions to any "female" behaviors I might comment upon. From here on out, my mantra is NAWALT.


This holds true for both genders - particularly in a forum of this nature. When people are hurt / damaged, there can be a tendency for them to take things personally.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Machiavelli said:


> If you're screwing around on a clueless husband who is viscerally afraid of walking into the free weight area of a gym and who's playing WOW all night while you're out with "the girls" til 3 AM, I might be talking about what women like you want, based on your actions. If that's not you, then I'm probably not talking about what you want.


You are way too modest. We are most certainly talking about what someone (anyone) might find themselves wanting in some future situation, under much less extreme circumstances. In my humble observation, a guy working late month after month and his wife hanging out with all the other parents at their kids' sports activities three or four nights a week is enough to get ignition. I see this all the time.


----------



## Cubby

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I am beginning to think nearly half of all the men here think this way. God. Okay, this will shock the sh!t out of you but women actually have a brain. We train with fit men and surprise, surprise, we go home to our husbands. Wanna know why I train with a fit guy? Because he f-ing showed me with his body what can be done. Oh, it wasn't his body pressed up against mine either. I didn't have to do the horizontal mambo with him to figure it out, shockingly. He got me down to 17 percent body fat as a 41 year old woman and THAT is why I continue to train with him. Newsflash, it isn't because I want to nail him. Jesus.
> Just so you know, if you compare Mr. Low hanging fruit with money to a young guy with a body and use that as a standard, you are a fool. The only woman who wants a man like that is the same as a man who would want a woman like that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Women having sex with their personal trainers might be more common than you think. The predator trainer who was interested in my wife (more interested in the training $ - he stopped talking to wifey when I said "no" on the training sessions) told her all the male trainers were banging their clients. I'm sure he was exaggerating, but he seemed to know all the buttons to push. And one of the trainers at that gym recently divorced because as the predator put it, "he was banging every female who walked through the door."

Edit: BTW, my wife now only works out with me. And at a different gym. Too many predators looking for middle-age women they can heap praise on, knowing that women can't get enough of that attention. Once I was naive, but now I have joined the ranks of "those who can see." And I now see it ALL THE TIME.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Cubby said:


> Women having sex with their personal trainers might be more common than you think. The predator trainer who was interested in my wife (more interested in the training $ - he stopped talking to wifey when I said "no" on the training sessions) told her all the male trainers were banging their clients. I'm sure he was exaggerating, but he seemed to know all the buttons to push. And one of the trainers at that gym recently divorced because as the predator put it, "he was banging every female who walked through the door."


If they're not doing it, it's not because they don't have the opportunity


----------



## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> The word for today is "solipsism." Many women seem to have a very difficult time comprehending the concept of frequency distributions and bell curves. Any topic can only be perceived in how it affects them personally. Of course, I'm the first to admit that the women of TAM are always, always the notable exceptions to any "female" behaviors I might comment upon. From here on out, my mantra is NAWALT.


Lots of drama, histrionics and " snowflaking."


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Caribbean Man said:


> Sorry lady,
> I'm not interested.
> Go fight with some other man.
> 
> What's important to me right now is my wife's trust.
> We have a great relationship , and an absolutely amazing sexual connection.
> 
> What ANY OTHER woman think outside of her doesn't matter to me.
> Of course I'm **deluded!**
> If you, or any other woman had a relationship like ours,
> You too would be **deluded!**


Come back after you have known your partner for 30+ years, married for 19, 2 kids and get back to me. At 5 years my husband hung the moon. Now? A bit different. I guess I don't have a relationship like you. ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Machiavelli said:


> That won't mean anything to 99% of the people who read it, but I highly, highly commend you on your achievement, dedication, and determination. It's good that your trainer knew enough to impart knowledge to you on how to do it, but you're the one who actually went and did it. I salute you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CM's point is that lots of girls, even if this isn't the case for you personally or even the specific woman in the gym story, have both those guys and it's Mr. Low Hanging Fruit that comes to CWI.


I have to say your response surprised me. You normally come across as really arrogant and your post gave me pause. Thank you for your praise and yes I have worked very hard. Perhaps I got you wrong or maybe I didn't but I appreciate your comment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Cubby said:


> Women having sex with their personal trainers might be more common than you think. The predator trainer who was interested in my wife (more interested in the training $ - he stopped talking to wifey when I said "no" on the training sessions) told her all the male trainers were banging their clients. I'm sure he was exaggerating, but he seemed to know all the buttons to push. And one of the trainers at that gym recently divorced because as the predator put it, "he was banging every female who walked through the door."
> 
> Edit: BTW, my wife now only works out with me. And at a different gym. Too many predators looking for middle-age women they can heap praise on, knowing that women can't get enough of that attention. Once I was naive, but now I have joined the ranks of "those who can see." And I now see it ALL THE TIME.


I'm sorry but "predator trainer"? Predator implies that she was powerless and you blame him rather than her. SHE made the choice just as I make the choice every day not to screw my trainer. If I did? MY choice and nobody else is to blame.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Come back after you have known your partner for 30+ years, married for 19, 2 kids and get back to me. At 5 years my husband hung the moon. Now? A bit different. I guess I don't have a relationship like you. ;-)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Married ..........................17 years
Known Partner................23 years
No Children by choice.

Guess you're wrong _again._


----------



## thegatewalker

The alpha beta thing is really stupid and you are better off just doing the right thing vs being a jerk all the time. I am not telling you to be a door mat. I am telling you to always do what is right and do your fair share of work. Alpha beta is compleat nonsince.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Ten_year_hubby said:


> If they're not doing it, it's not because they don't have the opportunity


Yes. Some of us have free will. I CHOOSE not to cheat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Caribbean Man said:


> Married ..........................17 years
> Known Partner................23 years
> No Children by choice.
> 
> Guess you're wrong _again._


I apologize then and willingly take the deserved kick in the ass. Something about your posts made me think you were married for only a short time. I wish I had that formula that you have, I really mean it. How awesome that after all that time you two are still so in love. It makes me cry to think about a love like that. We used to have it but it is gone. Forgive me, CM. I am wrong about you. Crap. I'm a jerk.
Now stop it with the "again" snip! I am wrong so often it would blow your mind and you don't need to bring it up!  I still will speak my mind and own up when I am wrong. I apologize and am very, very jealous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I apologize then and willingly take the deserved kick in the ass. Something about your posts made me think you were married for only a short time. I wish I had that formula that you have, I really mean it. How awesome that after all that time you two are still so in love. It makes me cry to think about a love like that. We used to have it but it is gone. Forgive me, CM. I am wrong about you. Crap. I'm a jerk.
> Now stop it with the "again" snip! I am wrong so often it would blow your mind and you don't need to bring it up!  I still will speak my mind and own up when I am wrong. I apologize and am very, very jealous.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



............three years into our marriage we were heading for collapse.
We decided the to go to a professional Marriage Counsellor.

I was strong willed, she was strong willed.
But we learned to compromise and respect each other's feelings.
..............................................................................................

Apology accepted, _and its never too late to forgive and start again._


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Caribbean Man said:


> ............three years into our marriage we were heading for collapse.
> We decided the to go to a professional Marriage Counsellor.
> 
> I was strong willed, she was strong willed.
> But we learned to compromise and respect each other's feelings.
> ..............................................................................................
> 
> Apology accepted, _and its never too late to forgive and start again._


True but we spent 1 year in therapy, 3 times a week. I wish I had the Men In Black memory eraser and could wipe my brain clean but I don't. It is very difficult to get over certain things. Bottom line, I don't trust him. No, he has never cheated that I know of but I do not trust him. He has never once showed that he had my back and often I was on my own. Yes, with my illness he has moved heaven and Earth to get me treatment but how odd that it takes a near death to get him motivated. 
10 months ago he allowed a drunk co-worker to assault me and he just stood there. This guy was screaming in my face and grabbed my tits many times. I finally clocked him across the nose and broke my thumb because I tucked it in to my fist. Apparently you should never tuck your thumb in to your fist! I wish I could do it over. 
Even more incredible that Jon was his boss and didn't fire him that Monday. That happened at a company party and he had hundreds of witnesses but no, this d!ck stayed employed at the option of my husband. Tell me what level of therapy makes that okay. It doesn't. I am literally on my own and I know it. You bet I hate him for it also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I have to say your response surprised me. You normally come across as really arrogant and your post gave me pause. Thank you for your praise and yes I have worked very hard. Perhaps I got you wrong or maybe I didn't but I appreciate your comment.


I own a training facility, so I'm very aware that many start down that road with a goal to get the body composition that you have achieved. Very few do.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Machiavelli said:


> I own a training facility, so I'm very aware that many start down that road with a goal to get the body composition that you have achieved. Very few do.


Awesome! Yup, it's been hard work especially with my condition and yet I get out there (now) 4 days a week down from 6. It makes me strong and I simply feel better. No, I was never fat but I wasn't toned. Thin is great but as you know it isn't everything. As a lady (thank you very much!), I love to pump iron. I don't take steroids so I don't look like some freak, it is just a way to tone. It has meant the world to me and I love it. Kuddos to you for helping others feel the way I do!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BjornFree

I'd like to take a moment and thank Machiavelli for adding the words "solipsism" and "wittol" among others into my rather limited vocabulary.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

BjornFree said:


> I'd like to take a moment and thank Machiavelli for adding the words "solipsism" and "wittol" among others into my rather limited vocabulary.


You aren't kidding me. I used to think I was smart, until that dude came in and I had to Google "wittol". Damn!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia

Whoa..... Wait a damn minute.... Your husband stood there and let some guy scream in your face AND grab your tits brighteyes? Sorry but no matter how great you think he is... That is a shytty thing to do. I can say gate would have killed the guy.... Your husband should have stood up for you imo. There is no fricken excuse.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes

Gaia said:


> Whoa..... Wait a damn minute.... Your husband stood there and let some guy scream in your face AND grab your tits brighteyes? Sorry but no matter how great you think he is... That is a shytty thing to do. I can say gate would have killed the guy.... Your husnand should have stood up for you imo. There is no fricken excuse.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't I know. As I said, I have zero respect for him and have often posted about divorce while others tell me to stick it out. Apparently I haven't given enough. Um, no. Go screw yourselves. I've given plenty. Marriage isn't some whim after 19 years. Oddly, never had a guy come in and call him a jerk. I get tips on how to make things better however, what I should do, give more blow jobs, etc. Yup, that's the ticket!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gaia

Gate is a guy and he thinks your husband is a douche. His advice.... "kick him in the face until he changes his tune" Those are gates exact words btw. Whoever told you to give him more bjs, ect is a friggin moron. Your sitiation is not something a friggin bj or increase of sexual anything can fix.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thegatewalker

He hasn't earned them .


----------



## thegatewalker

You know its over when there is zero respect for your mate and he dosnt care nor is he tring to earn it back. Life is two short to invest another second in him.


----------



## Deejo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Don't I know. As I said, I have zero respect for him and have often posted about divorce while others tell me to stick it out. Apparently I haven't given enough. Um, no. Go screw yourselves. I've given plenty. Marriage isn't some whim after 19 years. Oddly, never had a guy come in and call him a jerk. I get tips on how to make things better however, what I should do, give more blow jobs, etc. Yup, that's the ticket!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Come come now, I've called him a dope on several occasions.

I still remember your first post. You have tried harder than he has. You've wanted it more than he has.

Hope he has at least been supportive through your illness, despite his inability to stand up for you and your marriage.

I know what that's like. It's frustrating. It's sad. For everyone.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Come come now, I've called him a dope on several occasions.
> 
> I still remember your first post. You have tried harder than he has. You've wanted it more than he has.
> 
> Hope he has at least been supportive through your illness, despite his inability to stand up for you and your marriage.
> 
> I know what that's like. It's frustrating. It's sad. For everyone.


Do you really think I lumped you in with "guys", my dear? You are a breed all your own. Your attitude and willingness to accept other points of view makes you one hell of an amazing human being/demi God. Yeah, I don't stuff you in with others, ever. Any chance you have about 3 more inches on you?! ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Gaia said:


> Gate is a guy and he thinks your husband is a douche. His advice.... "kick him in the face until he changes his tune" Those are gates exact words btw. Whoever told you to give him more bjs, ect is a friggin moron. Your sitiation is not something a friggin bj or increase of sexual anything can fix.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think I twisted this original post so I will try to bring it back around. Women (in general) want a man who will stand up for them and have their back. Those who do not are pussies and most women do not [email protected] them. Period.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WyshIknew

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I think I twisted this original post so I will try to bring it back around. Women (in general) want a man who will stand up for them and have their back. Those who do not are pussies and most women do not [email protected] them. Period.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi Brighteyes,

That is exactly what my wife says she likes about me. I've thought I was way too beta but my wife said that she felt I was too alpha in the past. Since reading MMSLP I have incorporated more beta and she feels it has made us even stronger.
I think the secret with books like MMSLP is not to treat them as gospel but to take what works for you and use it.

I must be doing something right because we seem to get stronger and stronger together.

Incidentally don't want to TJ but I showed my wife your post about the Madonna tickets and she thinks your hubby is a d!ck. I can't post her full response as it might get me banned.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Therealbrighteyes said:


> True but we spent 1 year in therapy, 3 times a week. I wish I had the Men In Black memory eraser and could wipe my brain clean but I don't. It is very difficult to get over certain things. Bottom line,* I don't trust him. No, he has never cheated that I know of but I do not trust him. He has never once showed that he had my back and often I was on my own.* Yes, with my illness he has moved heaven and Earth to get me treatment but how odd that it takes a near death to get him motivated.
> 10 months ago he allowed a drunk co-worker to assault me and he just stood there. This guy was screaming in my face and grabbed my tits many times. I finally clocked him across the nose and broke my thumb because I tucked it in to my fist. Apparently you should never tuck your thumb in to your fist! I wish I could do it over.
> Even more incredible that Jon was his boss and didn't fire him that Monday. That happened at a company party and he had hundreds of witnesses but no, this d!ck stayed employed at the option of my husband. Tell me what level of therapy makes that okay. It doesn't. I am literally on my own and I know it. You bet I hate him for it also.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Firstly I'm sorry I couldn't respond to your post last evening, but I live in another time zone and we are about 2 hours ahead . I was tired so I logged off.

With respect to your marriage, I have never really read your story. All I know from a few of your posts, is that there is deep distrust and a weird dynamic between both of you. 
I have never read any, deep details , so the above post was an eye opener to me.

This was my response to another poster,over the weekend, in a situation where she was hit by a man.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/59903-should-i-confront-my-husband-about-4.html

03.11.2012 , 9.45PM post # 59

_".......Sometimes a man got to do what a man got to do.

You touch my wife I will fcuk you up.
You hit my wife I will fcuk you up.

lets not overthink this stuff......."_


Based on what you have posted here in this paragraph :

*".........Bottom line, I don't trust him. No, he has never cheated that I know of but I do not trust him. He has never once showed that he had my back and often I was on my own........."*

Your relationship_ seems_ dysfunctional. 
Frustration , Constant Unhappiness [ ?], Distrust, Disrespect are just some of the red flags that points to this.

I have never been one to suggest that anyone use sex as a panacea to fix things when they go awry in a relationship , especially one with that sort of dynamic and where a huge power differential exist.
I have said it many times on this board. IMO sex just adds to the frustrations because the problem is not sexual. Your view may vary.

IMHO, you are justified in planning your exit strategy out of your marriage because of its dysfunctional nature,emotional abuse and the length of time .
Every woman desires to feel loved respected and wanted.
Your husband's behaviour at that office function was disrespectful to the extreme, and should be condemned by every right thinking man.

_Its time for letting go._


So, now that I understand the context of your POV viz men and the 
" Alpha male " traits, please understand that your husband's behaviour is the antithesis of any such,positive manly trait , whether Alpha , Beta, or Caveman.

A real man NEVER hits a woman.
Real men will physically DEFEND their women.


----------



## Caribbean Man

thegatewalker said:


> *You know its over when there is zero respect for your mate and he dosnt care nor is he tring to earn it back. Life is two short to invest another second in him.*


:iagree: x 1000%

WORDS OF WISDOM FROM A MAN.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

Cubby said:


> Women having sex with their personal trainers might be more common than you think. The predator trainer who was interested in my wife (more interested in the training $ - he stopped talking to wifey when I said "no" on the training sessions) told her all the male trainers were banging their clients. I'm sure he was exaggerating, but he seemed to know all the buttons to push. And one of the trainers at that gym recently divorced because as the predator put it, "he was banging every female who walked through the door."
> 
> Edit: BTW, my wife now only works out with me. And at a different gym. Too many predators looking for middle-age women they can heap praise on, knowing that women can't get enough of that attention. Once I was naive, but now I have joined the ranks of "those who can see." And I now see it ALL THE TIME.


Of course personal trainers are going to hit on women who have employed them. You'd be naive to think they wouldn't. 

My question though is do you have that little regard for your wife's morality that you think she could be tempted to cheat with one of these guys?


----------



## jaquen

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I apologize then and willingly take the deserved kick in the ass. Something about your posts made me think you were married for only a short time. I wish I had that formula that you have, I really mean it. How awesome that after all that time you two are still so in love. It makes me cry to think about a love like that. We used to have it but it is gone. Forgive me, CM. I am wrong about you. Crap. I'm a jerk.
> Now stop it with the "again" snip! I am wrong so often it would blow your mind and you don't need to bring it up!  I still will speak my mind and own up when I am wrong. I apologize and am very, very jealous.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What a classy comeback. I commend you for being so humble about your mistake, and giving praise where it's due.



Therealbrighteyes said:


> Something about your posts made me think you were married for only a short time.


I agree with a lot of CM's comments because his marriage reminds me a lot of mine. I too was unaware that he'd been with his wife for so long (doesn't hurt that they obviously look younger than they are). I suppose it's because he talks about her, and their marriage, with a freshness that a lot of very long time married people do not. It's good to know that you can keep the spark alive, and thriving, 20+ years in.


----------



## Cubby

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I'm sorry but "predator trainer"? Predator implies that she was powerless and you blame him rather than her. SHE made the choice just as I make the choice every day not to screw my trainer. If I did? MY choice and nobody else is to blame.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You assume too much. I blame her MUCH more than I blame him. You don't know the whole story. As for the trainer, he is what he is. A predator.


----------



## Cubby

MaritimeGuy said:


> Of course personal trainers are going to hit on women who have employed them. You'd be naive to think they wouldn't.
> 
> *My question though is do you have that little regard for your wife's morality that you think she could be tempted to cheat with one of these guys?*


I don't think she would (cheat). But then, being a realist, I realize, "never say never." Anyone can succumb to the temptation of cheating given the right circumstances. That's what boundaries are for.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Women (in general) want a man who will stand up for them and have their back. Those who do not are pussies and most women do not [email protected] them. Period.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Straight from the horse's mouth. I'll credit you in my book


----------



## Cosmos

Therealbrigheyes: I'm sorry that your H stood back and allowed another man to treat you the way his co-worker did. That must have hurt you on many levels...

Feeling safe and secure with a man involves trust, and if you can't trust your H to protect you, there's no way you can feel safe and secure with him.

A lot of my respect for my partner comes from the fact that I know that he is not only capable of keeping me safe, but that I feel secure enough with him to reveal my vulnerable side.

You deserve more than an H who treats you the way yours does.


----------



## WyshIknew

Therealbrighteyes said:


> True but we spent 1 year in therapy, 3 times a week. I wish I had the Men In Black memory eraser and could wipe my brain clean but I don't. It is very difficult to get over certain things. Bottom line, I don't trust him. No, he has never cheated that I know of but I do not trust him. He has never once showed that he had my back and often I was on my own. Yes, with my illness he has moved heaven and Earth to get me treatment but how odd that it takes a near death to get him motivated.
> 10 months ago he allowed a drunk co-worker to assault me and he just stood there. This guy was screaming in my face and grabbed my tits many times. I finally clocked him across the nose and broke my thumb because I tucked it in to my fist. Apparently you should never tuck your thumb in to your fist! I wish I could do it over.
> Even more incredible that Jon was his boss and didn't fire him that Monday. That happened at a company party and he had hundreds of witnesses but no, this d!ck stayed employed at the option of my husband. Tell me what level of therapy makes that okay. It doesn't. I am literally on my own and I know it. You bet I hate him for it also.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Thats awful!

At the very least your hubby should have dragged him away.

If he had done that to my wife I would have launched the twat.

Not being funny but is your husband a coward?


----------



## MaritimeGuy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> True but we spent 1 year in therapy, 3 times a week. I wish I had the Men In Black memory eraser and could wipe my brain clean but I don't. It is very difficult to get over certain things. Bottom line, I don't trust him. No, he has never cheated that I know of but I do not trust him. He has never once showed that he had my back and often I was on my own. Yes, with my illness he has moved heaven and Earth to get me treatment but how odd that it takes a near death to get him motivated.
> 10 months ago he allowed a drunk co-worker to assault me and he just stood there. This guy was screaming in my face and grabbed my tits many times. I finally clocked him across the nose and broke my thumb because I tucked it in to my fist. Apparently you should never tuck your thumb in to your fist! I wish I could do it over.
> Even more incredible that Jon was his boss and didn't fire him that Monday. That happened at a company party and he had hundreds of witnesses but no, this d!ck stayed employed at the option of my husband. Tell me what level of therapy makes that okay. It doesn't. I am literally on my own and I know it. You bet I hate him for it also.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your husband didn't handle it well but on the upside you handled it tremendously. 

I would suggest should you ever choose to you could do so much better.


----------



## Machiavelli

Therealbrighteyes said:


> He has *never once showed that he had my back* and often I was on my own...
> 10 months ago *he allowed a drunk co-worker to assault me* and he just stood there. This guy was screaming in my face and grabbed my tits many times...
> Even more incredible that *Jon was his boss and didn't fire him *that Monday. That happened at a company party and he had hundreds of witnesses but no, this d!ck stayed employed at the option of my husband. Tell me *what level of therapy makes that okay.* It doesn't. I am literally on my own and I know it. You bet *I hate him for it* also.


This is fairly profound.

Male behaviors reveal male status to women. Your H demonstrated his unworthiness as a mate in spectacular fashion. Women get excited for the winner of a melee, but nothing turns a woman on more than a guy taking out physically threatening vermin on her behalf. Failure do so is conversely the ultimate demonstration of low value and the polar opposite of "alpha." In this case resulting in hate.

Your reaction is visceral, universal and correct. The whole bargain of marriage is exclusive sex from the female and provision and protection from the male. No protection = epic fail.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> True but we spent 1 year in therapy, 3 times a week. I wish I had the Men In Black memory eraser and could wipe my brain clean but I don't. It is very difficult to get over certain things. Bottom line, I don't trust him. No, he has never cheated that I know of but I do not trust him. He has never once showed that he had my back and often I was on my own. Yes, with my illness he has moved heaven and Earth to get me treatment but how odd that it takes a near death to get him motivated.
> 10 months ago he allowed a drunk co-worker to assault me and he just stood there. This guy was screaming in my face and grabbed my tits many times. I finally clocked him across the nose and broke my thumb because I tucked it in to my fist. Apparently you should never tuck your thumb in to your fist! I wish I could do it over.
> Even more incredible that Jon was his boss and didn't fire him that Monday. That happened at a company party and he had hundreds of witnesses but no, this d!ck stayed employed at the option of my husband. Tell me what level of therapy makes that okay. It doesn't. I am literally on my own and I know it. You bet I hate him for it also.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The therapy is not for him, it is for you. Carrying around that level of hatred, no matter how much deserved, is not healthy for you. I won't defend him because what he did (and most importantly did not do) is indefensible. However, counseling for you to deal with this hate is a must because you won't be able to hide it. It will come out, and perhaps in a way and time when you don't want it to come out.

I am sorry that you are going through this.


----------



## Adex

BECOME THE ALPHA! Last night, I told my wife, "Give me a handjob" and she handled it without complaining. Then I complimented her telling her good job.

It's awesome. A few years ago, I was more beta and wouldn't have asked like that. Women love when the man takes the lead.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

WyshIknew said:


> Thats awful!
> 
> At the very least your hubby should have dragged him away.
> 
> If he had done that to my wife I would have launched the twat.
> 
> Not being funny but is your husband a coward?


Yes. He has a different take on things though. He says that civilized people do not use fists and thus the situation could have been diffused other ways. While I agree with parts of that, no way would I have allowed some jerk to treat him that way or anybody else I cared about for that fact. It would have been Thunderdome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Machiavelli said:


> This is fairly profound.
> 
> Male behaviors reveal male status to women. Your H demonstrated his unworthiness as a mate in spectacular fashion. Women get excited for the winner of a melee, but nothing turns a woman on more than a guy taking out physically threatening vermin on her behalf. Failure do so is conversely the ultimate demonstration of low value and the polar opposite of "alpha." In this case resulting in hate.
> 
> Your reaction is visceral, universal and correct. The whole bargain of marriage is exclusive sex from the female and provision and protection from the male. No protection = epic fail.


I agree with parts of what you are saying. My two previous boyfriends were very alpha types. One was a competitive body builder and would beat up anybody for looking at me the wrong way. NOT COOL. The second was a complete jerk as well. What I loved about Jon is that he is very intelligent and uses his brain to diffuse situations. It has always worked and frankly that has always turned me on more. Anybody can throw a punch, few are man enough however not to when they could easily win. He's tall and built, losing isn't in the cards. That said, this was not the time to use his brain. This guy should have been a bloody heap. As I said in another post, if somebody did that to a person I loved, it would have been Thunderdome............2 go in, 1 comes out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

Adex said:


> BECOME THE ALPHA! Last night, I told my wife, "Give me a handjob" and she handled it without complaining. Then I complimented her telling her good job.
> 
> It's awesome. A few years ago, I was more beta and wouldn't have asked like that. Women love when the man takes the lead.


:wtf:


----------



## jaquen

Adex said:


> BECOME THE ALPHA! Last night, I told my wife, "Give me a handjob" and she handled it without complaining. Then I complimented her telling her good job.
> 
> It's awesome. A few years ago, I was more beta and wouldn't have asked like that. Women love when the man takes the lead.


I can have a HJ or a BJ just about anytime I want. Guess what? All I have to do is ask, or let her know with my body language, or wait for her to initiate because she actually enjoys doing them. No need to run up to her and demand a freaking sexual service, like some low rent hooker.

Isn't the entire purpose behind this ongoing TAM obsession with the "alpha male" that he's imbued with certain qualities that entice a woman to crave and desire him, thus never needing to take the base action you did above? If you were living the "alpha" creed, she wouldn't even be complaining in the first place. She'd be excited to give you a HJ.

:scratchhead:


----------



## Holland

jaquen said:


> I can have a HJ or a BJ just about anytime I want. Guess what? All I have to do is ask, or let her know with my body language, or wait for her to initiate because she actually enjoys doing them. No need to run up to her and demand a freaking sexual service, like some low rent hooker.
> 
> Isn't the entire purpose behind this ongoing TAM obsession with the "alpha male" that he's imbued with certain qualities that entice a woman to crave and desire him, thus never needing to take the base action you did above? If you were living the "alpha" creed, she wouldn't even be complaining in the first place. She'd be excited to give you a HJ.
> 
> :scratchhead:


Totally agree with this.

OP you may be confusing being the Alpha with being the caveman.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

jaquen said:


> I can have a HJ or a BJ just about anytime I want. Guess what? All I have to do is ask, or let her know with my body language, or wait for her to initiate because she actually enjoys doing them. No need to run up to her and demand a freaking sexual service, like some low rent hooker.
> 
> Isn't the entire purpose behind this ongoing TAM obsession with the "alpha male" that he's imbued with certain qualities that entice a woman to crave and desire him, thus never needing to take the base action you did above? If you were living the "alpha" creed, she wouldn't even be complaining in the first place. She'd be excited to give you a HJ.
> 
> :scratchhead:


Yeah, Google his name and move on. Any body who would use a "doctor" from Hitler's regime as a sign on name tells you all you need to know. I even told him what the name meant and he laughed, was pretty impressed with himself and didn't bother to change it. Carry on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lyris

"Give me a handjob". You said it just like that? Nice. 

My husband doesn't have to ask. Or tell. So far this week I've given him a BJ and we've had sex twce. 

If he did say "give me a handjob", and it wasn't a joke, he'd be getting zero out of me that night.

If this is 'the alpha' I do not love it. And I am, indeed, a woman. But, you know, tell me again what turns me on.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

michzz said:


> Life is too complicated for binary labels purporting to be the way of the world.


But, but can't I put azzholes in a binder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Binary is just like 3 rings only more high tech. 
Romney would wet his magic underwear if he had a clue. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

michzz said:


> Base 10 allows for more options


Yeah, for every guy who reads here and thinks they have a clue about women, take a page out of Michzz's book. He kicks it old school and gets so many references.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WyshIknew

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Yes. He has a different take on things though. He says that civilized people do not use fists and thus the situation could have been diffused other ways. While I agree with parts of that, no way would I have allowed some jerk to treat him that way or anybody else I cared about for that fact. It would have been Thunderdome.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, posted my original reply out of anger and disgust. I accept that your hubby is not a coward, my statement was a knee jerk reaction to your post.
However your hubby states that the situation could have been diffused other ways. It seems to me (I know we are not seeing the whole story) that it was diffused by the drunk running out of nasty things that he could say and do to you.

As soon as the tirade started your hubby should have stepped in and told him enough, then got him home.
If he got physical then, forcibly but as peacefully as possible remove him from the situation with the help of colleagues. I would though have found it difficult not to lump him, it would have taken a lot of restraint.

I also think that grabbing your breasts is a form of sexual assault.

I hope things work out for you, it sounds like you are having a sh!tty time of things at the moment.

Judging by your posts you sound like a capable person so you should be ok.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

Adex said:


> BECOME THE ALPHA! Last night, I told my wife, "Give me a handjob" and she handled it without complaining. Then I complimented her telling her good job.


I realize tone can be misconstrued in a forum like this but this comes across as very condescending. Kind of how you would train an animal.


----------



## lovelygirl

Adex said:


> BECOME THE ALPHA! Last night, I told my wife, "Give me a handjob" and she handled it without complaining. Then I complimented her telling her good job.
> 
> It's awesome. A few years ago, I was more beta and wouldn't have asked like that. Women love when the man takes the lead.


Had I been her I would have told you to go and F* yourself. 
She's not your servant. 


I wonder to what point her submissiveness might have reached.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Adex said:


> BECOME THE ALPHA! Last night, I told my wife, "Give me a handjob" and she handled it without complaining. Then I complimented her telling her good job.
> 
> It's awesome. A few years ago, I was more beta and wouldn't have asked like that. Women love when the man takes the lead.


wth?? LOL 

trying to be alpha...i think you might be doing it wrong.


----------



## Dollystanford

a real alpha man doesn't need to ask dear


----------



## barcafan

Dollystanford said:


> a real alpha man doesn't need to ask dear


Yeah, you just whip it out and put it on her face. 

Oh and if you are going to ask her for something then ask for at least a bj FFS. Who wants a forced hj? A forced bj on the other hand.....debatable.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Eleven days ago,on this thread the OP asked a question about being Alpha.
Almost most woman on this thread told him that no such thing existed, and that the entire concept is garbage.

_Today the same women are telling him what is not being Alpha._:scratchhead:

But they still haven't said exactly what is " becoming Alpha."

OP,
If you want to get a real perspective of what a good Alpha male husband is, from a woman who actually KNOWS what she's talking about,

Then go to this thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/59822-married-alpha-male.html

Have a good read. It is VERY insightful.

PS;
Asking for any sexual act/ favors from a woman is definitely a no-no.
Demanding a certain act, _during the height of passion_ is quite a different thing, and will get you a lot points if you know exactly how to do it.
It can only happen when you are fully in control of the sexual atmosphere in your marriage/ home.
You have to make her _want to please you._


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Caribbean Man said:


> PS;
> Asking for any sexual act/ favors from a woman is definitely a no-no.


CM,

Help me here please, what exactly is the problem with asking?


----------



## Caribbean Man

Ten_year_hubby said:


> CM,
> 
> Help me here please, what exactly is the problem with asking?


There is absolutely no problem with asking,
But , what exactly is a husband supposed to " ask" his wife?

Honey, can I have a BJ please?
Honey can we have sex tonight?
Honey can I have a HJ please?

There is an answer to all three of those questions, it goes like this;
" No baby, I'm tired..."

She's tired of the husband's weak approach. It does nothing for her imagination,it does not build any sort of attraction.


Take a different approach, seduce her a little bit, make her feel sexy , *put sex back on the front burner* and she will be the one telling her husband that she wants to have sex now , not tonight.

My wife is the one who demands sex from me whenever she's in the mood, and she's always in the mood since she crossed 40 a couple yrs ago.

I never ask her because whenever I'm around, sex is always in the air.
I always hold her , kiss her, squeeze her butt, tell her she's looking sexy. Sometimes even when we are working [ we work together] I will sneak my hands in her blouse and 
" cup a feel."
She does me the same thing.
Almost everything we do, sex is just simmering underneath,and it can happen anytime. 
also , our touching and " fooling around " does not always lead to sex. But it makes us comfortable with sex.

No need to ask or beg, the atmosphere is already there.

Last evening I came home and she was relaxing in the couch , and she had a really short shorts on. I sat down not far from her and she simply stretched out her leg and put them on my lap.
She knows she has sexy legs and feet, and she knows that I love her legs. I start playing with her feet, and she starts playing with my d..k through my pants, with her feet.
Nice stuff, and I didn't even have to ask.
She knows what I like and she gives it to me without asking.


----------



## jaquen

Caribbean Man said:


> Almost everything we do, sex is just simmering underneath,and it can happen anytime.
> also , our touching and " fooling around " does not always lead to sex. But it makes us comfortable with sex.
> 
> No need to ask or beg, the atmosphere is already there.


This is IT! It's about an atmosphere of sex, where the possibility is always present. 

That does not mean that you're necessarily doing it all day, everyday. 
That does not mean that you don't have the right to say "not right now".

It merely means that the possibility of getting it on is ever in the air. When you have that, all the other sex issues disappear. You don't have conversations about initiation, complaining, begging, groveling, crying, and screaming about sex; and even if you do, those are very rare.

Stop concentrating on the singular sexual acts, and start concentrating on putting that sexual fire back at the forefront. That way you won't ever need to find yourself coveting that one time she finally gave you a HJ without complaint. You might even find yourself reaching a point where you're so sexually satiated that you'll start writing a few rainchecks yourself!


----------



## Caribbean Man

jaquen said:


> *Stop concentrating on the singular sexual acts, and start concentrating on putting that sexual fire back at the forefront. *


:iagree:

I call that " taking charge" others may have another name for it.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Caribbean Man said:


> There is absolutely no problem with asking,
> But , what exactly is a husband supposed to " ask" his wife?
> 
> Honey, can I have a BJ please?
> Honey can we have sex tonight?
> Honey can I have a HJ please?
> 
> There is an answer to all three of those questions, it goes like this;
> " No baby, I'm tired..."
> 
> She's tired of the husband's weak approach. It does nothing for her imagination,it does not build any sort of attraction.
> 
> 
> Take a different approach, seduce her a little bit, make her feel sexy , *put sex back on the front burner* and she will be the one telling her husband that she wants to have sex now , not tonight.
> 
> My wife is the one who demands sex from me whenever she's in the mood, and she's always in the mood since she crossed 40 a couple yrs ago.
> 
> I never ask her because whenever I'm around, sex is always in the air.
> I always hold her , kiss her, squeeze her butt, tell her she's looking sexy. Sometimes even when we are working [ we work together] I will sneak my hands in her blouse and
> " cup a feel."
> She does me the same thing.
> Almost everything we do, sex is just simmering underneath,and it can happen anytime.
> also , our touching and " fooling around " does not always lead to sex. But it makes us comfortable with sex.
> 
> No need to ask or beg, the atmosphere is already there.
> 
> Last evening I came home and she was relaxing in the couch , and she had a really short shorts on. I sat down not far from her and she simply stretched out her leg and put them on my lap.
> She knows she has sexy legs and feet, and she knows that I love her legs. I start playing with her feet, and she starts playing with my d..k through my pants, with her feet.
> Nice stuff, and I didn't even have to ask.
> She knows what I like and she gives it to me without asking.


Thanks CM, this is great input. But for a number of reasons there are women out there that are so effed up in the head over male/female physical intimacy that they are never going to be OK with a sexualized atmosphere. At least not without a massive amount of work. If they're good looking and not too picky, they can find still themselves a marital home and that's where some of us men find ourselves.

But back to asking. Women are not as strong as men and there are lots of reasons why a woman might be too tired at any given moment. There must be something more to this because I don't see how it plays itself out as a problem. If tonight is not good, tomorrow morning is fine.


----------



## jaquen

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Thanks CM, this is great input. But for a number of reasons there are women out there that are so effed up in the head over male/female physical intimacy that they are never going to be OK with a sexualized atmosphere.


Then they should be alone until such a time as they work through the issues, take up with another woman, or enjoy their ever growing live cat collection.

And men need to stop be so ****ing desperate for vagina that they run blindly into relationships with women whose sexualutity is DOA.

There is nothing wrong with being effed up. But that doesn't give you a license to screw over someone else's life all in the name of your issues.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

jaquen said:


> And men need to stop be so ****ing desperate for vagina that they run blindly into relationships with women whose sexualutity is DOA.


I think that goes both ways. Women who have healthy sex drives shouldn't run blindly into relationships with men whose sexuality is DOA either. 

I read a lot of stories here that start with "everything in our relationship is perfect...except I'm miserable with our sex (of lack of it) life". I don't really understand how you seperate your relationship from sex. To me it's a component of it.


----------



## MEM2020

Last night I mentioned a story I read in the paper. I said the word "FOREST". I actually did pronounce it with an accent, by accident. 

My W LOVES to correct people on accent, grammar, word choice. Quite funny really. 

As I finish the sentence she says: "can you say (forest) again". 

I look at her dead pan and repeat the sentence:
The twins were fighting in the WOODS near a mall. 

She frowns and asks again. Ten minutes and many synonyms later she is still trying to get me to say the "F" word. I give a deep sigh and say fine: The twins were fighting in the "f - thicket - near a mall". 

I started to make the "f" sound, it was so much fun to see her eyes begin to light up - finally she could correct me. 

My arm still hurts though - she punches pretty hard for a girl - I got my own in though. 

I did eventually say the "F" word later, and pronounced it perfectly. Kind of did it casually - she said "I HATE you". 






Ten_year_hubby said:


> Thanks CM, this is great input. But for a number of reasons there are women out there that are so effed up in the head over male/female physical intimacy that they are never going to be OK with a sexualized atmosphere. At least not without a massive amount of work. If they're good looking and not too picky, they can find still themselves a marital home and that's where some of us men find ourselves.
> 
> But back to asking. Women are not as strong as men and there are lots of reasons why a woman might be too tired at any given moment. There must be something more to this because I don't see how it plays itself out as a problem. If tonight is not good, tomorrow morning is fine.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

jaquen said:


> Then they should be alone until such a time as they work through the issues, take up with another woman, or enjoy their ever growing live cat collection.
> 
> And men need to stop be so ****ing desperate for vagina that they run blindly into relationships with women whose sexualutity is DOA.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with being effed up. But that doesn't give you a license to screw over someone else's life all in the name of your issues.


jaquen,

Believe me, I'm with you here but sometimes this stuff doesn't really show up until after the knot is tied or the kids are birthed. Also, there is the "love is blind" effect which is especially pronounced if the woman is drop dead gorgeous.

A big problem we face in our marriage is that my wife is able to find that her friends and the culture at large reflect back to her the idea that low drive/no drive is a natural state for women. She then tries to turn this into a male/female conflict, which is the way she sees it in her mind. Unfortunately, she gets a lot of outside support for this.


----------



## NoWhere

Caribbean Man said:


> There is absolutely no problem with asking,
> But , what exactly is a husband supposed to " ask" his wife?
> 
> Honey, can I have a BJ please?
> 
> There is an answer to all three of those questions, it goes like this;
> " No baby, I'm tired..."
> 
> She's tired of the husband's weak approach. It does nothing for her imagination,it does not build any sort of attraction.
> 
> 
> Take a different approach


How about. 'Hey dear open your mouth and close your eye's for a second. I have a surprise for you!'


----------



## jaquen

Ten_year_hubby said:


> jaquen,
> 
> Believe me, I'm with you here but sometimes this stuff doesn't really show up until after the knot is tied or the kids are birthed.


The old bait and switch. Absolutely understand that. That's not the kind of scenario I'm talking about. This, however, is: 




Ten_year_hubby said:


> Also, there is the "love is blind" effect which is especially pronounced if the woman is drop dead gorgeous.


Love is a wonderful thing. It is, for us, THE thing that binds us together. But we need to start teaching our men and women that it's OK to dump spouses who don't follow through sexually. Mistakes made in love shouldn't bind you to a lifetime of a forced eunuchoid existence. Sexual abandonment is the very breaking of the marriage vows, equally as detrimental as adultery.

But unfortunately it's become culturally acceptable...



Ten_year_hubby said:


> A big problem we face in our marriage is that my wife is able to find that her friends and the culture at large reflect back to her the idea that low drive/no drive is a natural state for women. She then tries to turn this into a male/female conflict, which is the way she sees it in her mind. Unfortunately, she gets a lot of outside support for this.


As you perfectly state here. Some women, thanks to the advances of Feminism, have been socially programmed into believing that male virility is a pesky nuisance that a woman has to put up with, and with expected diminishing returns as time goes by. It's expected that a woman can, without consequence, deny sex endlessly, and their horny little husbands need to just be grateful for the times the do throw a bone.

Thank God not all women are like this, but it is very, very acceptable in this country for a woman to act like this and get legions of support for her egregious behavior.

And this is where it becomes the man's job to lay it on the line: get with the program, or find yourself another fool.

One of the best things the Feminist movement did was empower women to say NO. That has been necessary, and long, long overdue. But in a bid to empower women, at least in the western societies, we are castrating men.


----------



## pidge70

Therealbrighteyes said:


> When did you get a vagina? Until you do, just stop telling or speaking on behalf of women. I know what I believe and I sure as heck don't need some dude to tell me what I want. You are also wrong, for me at least. The simple fact that you think you know what women want and are so bold to speak for an entire sex, makes you sexual napalm to me. Tell me again about how I get turned on, I friggin dare you.


This is one of those times that I frigging love you!........:smthumbup:


----------



## pidge70

Caribbean Man said:


> Really?
> 
> What's so funny about women defining themselves and what works for them ,and a man defining himself and what works for him?
> 
> *What's so funny about a man who decides to stand up for himself , and not allow an insecure , BPD control freak to bully him?*


While I understand this is not an attack on me personally, this line cheeses me off. Whilst I am an insecure BPD control freak, my H does stand up for himself. I wouldn't be able to respect him if he let me run roughshod over him. FTR, anyone who is a BPD'er, is most definitely NOT one by choice.


----------



## Holland

Caribbean Man said:


> There is absolutely no problem with asking,
> But , what exactly is a husband supposed to " ask" his wife?
> 
> Honey, can I have a BJ please?
> Honey can we have sex tonight?
> Honey can I have a HJ please?
> 
> There is an answer to all three of those questions, it goes like this;
> " No baby, I'm tired..."
> 
> She's tired of the husband's weak approach. It does nothing for her imagination,it does not build any sort of attraction.
> 
> 
> Take a different approach, seduce her a little bit, make her feel sexy , *put sex back on the front burner* and she will be the one telling her husband that she wants to have sex now , not tonight.
> 
> My wife is the one who demands sex from me whenever she's in the mood, and she's always in the mood since she crossed 40 a couple yrs ago.
> 
> I never ask her because whenever I'm around, sex is always in the air.
> I always hold her , kiss her, squeeze her butt, tell her she's looking sexy. Sometimes even when we are working [ we work together] I will sneak my hands in her blouse and
> " cup a feel."
> She does me the same thing.
> Almost everything we do, sex is just simmering underneath,and it can happen anytime.
> also , our touching and " fooling around " does not always lead to sex. But it makes us comfortable with sex.
> 
> No need to ask or beg, the atmosphere is already there.
> 
> Last evening I came home and she was relaxing in the couch , and she had a really short shorts on. I sat down not far from her and she simply stretched out her leg and put them on my lap.
> She knows she has sexy legs and feet, and she knows that I love her legs. I start playing with her feet, and she starts playing with my d..k through my pants, with her feet.
> Nice stuff, and I didn't even have to ask.
> She knows what I like and she gives it to me without asking.


This is the dream that I live. It's just there, always in the air, I feel sexy all the time even when he is not here. We txt cheeky stuff everyday. He is so open and confident in his masculinity and I feel wanted, needed, desired and comfortable with him.

He never asks me for sex, we are always in some form of foreplay, especially foreplay in the mind.


----------



## Chumpless

Holland said:


> He never asks me for sex, we are always in some form of foreplay, especially foreplay in the mind.


I hope this doesn't sound too forward, but can my wife have your phone number?


----------



## livinfree

Open up now let it all go said:


> I would want to "like" this post but I have no clue how to do that from a mobile device. Is there anyway to acces the full version of this website through android? Full version button that just directs me to the mobile version.


Get the Tapatalk mobile app for android:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.quoord.tapatalkpro.activity&hl=en

There's a free version but the paid is well worth it. Tap the post and then you can "like".

Cheers


----------



## Lyris

jaquen said:


> The old bait and switch. Absolutely understand that. That's not the kind of scenario I'm talking about. This, however, is:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Love is a wonderful thing. It is, for us, THE thing that binds us together. But we need to start teaching our men and women that it's OK to dump spouses who don't follow through sexually. Mistakes made in love shouldn't bind you to a lifetime of a forced eunuchoid existence. Sexual abandonment is the very breaking of the marriage vows, equally as detrimental as adultery.
> 
> But unfortunately it's become culturally acceptable...
> 
> 
> 
> *As you perfectly state here. Some women, thanks to the advances of Feminism, have been socially programmed into believing that male virility is a pesky nuisance that a woman has to put up with, and with expected diminishing returns as time goes by. It's expected that a woman can, without consequence, deny sex endlessly, and their horny little husbands need to just be grateful for the times the do throw a bone.*
> 
> Thank God not all women are like this, but it is very, very acceptable in this country for a woman to act like this and get legions of support for her egregious behavior.
> 
> And this is where it becomes the man's job to lay it on the line: get with the program, or find yourself another fool.
> 
> One of the best things the Feminist movement did was empower women to say NO. That has been necessary, and long, long overdue. But in a bid to empower women, at least in the western societies, we are castrating men.


I don't really see how feminism is to blame here. A large part of the women's movement was about freeing women's sexuality, allowing them to admit that they enjoyed sex and encouraging them to explore their bodies. Pre-1960, there was no real reliable contraception, no support for women pregnant outside of marriage and an even greater attitude of 'nice girls don't' than there is today. 

If anything, true equality would be likely to improve sexual relations between men and women. If a woman feels financially ir otherwise dependent on a man, she is very likely to look for power and a feeling of superiority somewhere else in the relationship. Withholding sex and ridiculing men is a classic passive control technique that is really only necessary when women don't feel they have equal agency. 

Women lose desire for many reasons. I've read a lot of stories here on TAM where the withholding wife is a child sexual abuse survivor, or a rape survivor. In a feminist society where women and children were truly valued, CSA and rape would occur far less. 
It's also a biological truth that women tend to become more easily aroused and interested by unfamiliar partners Sex at Dawn. So in a patriarchal society where women are confined to one long-term partner, female loss of desire is very common. 

I suppose pre-feminism maybe more women went along with sex because they were afraid, or didn't feel they had the right to say no. But is that the kind of sex men want? Not according to what I read here. Men want women to have sex with them, but they also want them to *want* to have sex with them. 

I grew up with a feminist mother. I am a feminist myself. I have always felt free to share my body or not, according to what I wanted and what I felt was right. I'm not afraid of my body or ashamed of my sexuality. I don't worry that I smell bad or feel inhibited about any part of it. 

I also knew I didn't have to marry for protection, for financial support, for societal acceptability or for any reason but true love, which of course includes sexual attraction. Feminism means being able to stand on your own feet, if necessary, so marrying the fat, rich guy so you and your children won't starve isn't necessary.


----------



## livinfree

Lyris said:


> Women lose desire for many reasons. I've read a lot of stories here on TAM where the withholding wife is a child sexual abuse survivor, or a rape survivor.


While true, that certainly needs to be disclosed before a marriage or LTR.

In my situation, it was disclosed much after the "I do's" when the witholding started it became a crutch.

Knowing what I know now, I would have walked away and moved on.


----------



## Caribbean Man

planbnomore said:


> *While true, that certainly needs to be disclosed before a marriage or LTR.*
> 
> In my situation, it was disclosed much after the "I do's" when the witholding started it became a crutch.
> 
> Knowing what I know now, I would have walked away and moved on.


:iagree:
But there are those right here on TAM who will tell you point blank that a woman does not have to disclose anything about her past. Its her business and any man asking is insecure.

Unfortunately, quite a lot of men fall for that rubbish and then we have the old classic " bait & switch " scenario mentioned by Jaquen.

Husband gets frustrated, doesn't know what to do, and any move he makes he gets a negative label.

The best option in scenarios like that is to be man enough to stand firm and be prepared to WALK.
That's why a real man cannot allow a woman or any other person to define him. He needs to set his own rules and boundaries ,live and die by them.

".._You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table
There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealing's done_..."

"The Gambler " Kenny Rogers.


----------



## jaquen

Lyris said:


> I don't really see how feminism is to blame here. A large part of the women's movement was about freeing women's sexuality, allowing them to admit that they enjoyed sex and encouraging them to explore their bodies. Pre-1960, there was no real reliable contraception, no support for women pregnant outside of marriage and an even greater attitude of 'nice girls don't' than there is today.


First off, let me say that I agree with almost your entire post. It definitely wasn't my intention to demonize Feminism. It is a _necessary_ movement, and the positive outcomes have outweighed the ills.

Having said that, it is a movement. And movements of adequation thrive by pushing the envelope in an attempt to equalize. Sometimes, however, the pendulum can be swung too far.

One of the great byproducts of the Feminist movement is the deepening understanding, and celebration, of female sexuality. Women are allowed socially to embrace their sexuality, and it's inherent power, more now than ever. While not perfect, of course, we've come a long, long way. That is a good thing, for both men and women. 

But a byproduct of that has been the inverse effect it's had on our collective perception of male sexuality. It's very acceptable in modernity, in the West, to celebrate female sexuality. There are countless books, magazines, and studies devoted to female sexuality. Besides promiscuity, which men are still allowed to practice with relatively little consequence, female sexuality is collectively embraced. Especially espoused is the idea of _choice_.

Women, with very little stigma, are allowed to withhold sex. There is a prevailing attitude that women are the gatekeepers now of sex, and basically what they so goes. Don't want to provide sex to your horny, leering spouse? That's OK, he's just a man, and men always want sex, and he'll get over it.

Romance novels, and erotica aimed at women, has almost non-existent backlash in comparison to sexually explicit material aimed at men. Girls out at the strip club are having great fun; men at the strip club ought to be ashamed of themselves. Porn is an evil men use to destroy their marriages; _50 Shades of Grey_ is the best thing to happen to women...ever. Hang your head in shame over that _Playboy_, but before you do can you pass me that copy of the new Harlequin "novel" on your way to sexual purgatory?

Want to experiment with other women? Sure some will have a problem, but a lot will just take it as a playful sexy fun. Catch a man experimenting with other men, and he's stamped for life.


Vibrators are a gift from God! Male sex toys, porn, and masturbation are creepy things best confined to darkened bathrooms, if they need to be done at all.

A middle aged woman with a 25 year old is a spicy "cougar". A 55 year old man with a 25 year old is a dirty old man. 

Wife refuses to have sex? Work overtime men to push her buttons, wine and dine her, find out her deepest needs, washt more dishes, be more "alpha", make her feel good. Husband refuses to have sex? Leave him, he's not normal, is being cruel, and is possibly gay.

Pay a man you don't know a compliment on his looks? Great! Pay a woman you don't know a compliment on her looks? Sexual harassment! 

We are at a season now where we are celebrating a lot (though admittedly not all) aspects of female sexuality. But as we embrace the feminine more, we are demonizing the masculine.


----------



## Caribbean Man

jaquen said:


> Having said that, it is a movement.* And movements of adequation thrive by pushing the envelope in an attempt to equalize. Sometimes, however, the pendulum can be swung too far.*
> 
> .


".....All movements go to far.."

Bertrand Russell.


----------



## Cosmos

> Having said that, it is a movement. And movements of adequation thrive by pushing the envelope in an attempt to equalize. Sometimes, however, the pendulum can be swung too far.


Sadly, this is true. In the case of feminism, I think it wasn't just a case of equalizing, it was a case of tearing down walls in order to make equality even remotely possible. In the process the structure of society seems to have been so badly damaged, it might take decades (many of them) before the pendulum reaches equilibrium.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Trenton said:


> I hate when losers limit our humanity based upon their stupid assumptions that are conjured up to make their lives less complicated and get them more SEX. Perhaps only a few men are evolved to the point where they understand that under appreciating someone, discounting them, not caring how they feel is ridiculously self serving and entitled and certainly not about love. But hey! You're Alpha! She secretly wants this! Yay for you! You found the perfect scheme to excuse your disgusting behavior to get what you want.



Gonna have to agree with you on this part Trenton!

Some men here would call my husband the "loser" - cause God forbid ...he asked me for a Hand job, well only once that I can even recall. Yeah, he could have done it more erotically -got me worked up first - in our past... live and learn...

He was never a beatin' his chest Alpha Male... but I'm not going to look down on him either. 

That type of attitude turns me off ... not on.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Trenton said:


> *To look at potential life mates (women in this case) as a singular pool you get to choose a floaty from and your behavior will dictate how many choices you can make is really gross and disgusting.*
> 
> I could assume that you just called my wife a " floaty ." I could take serious offense to that, but I won't.
> 
> I respect you Trenton ,way more than that.
> 
> 
> *To think that dragging around the floaty wherever you want to take it and sticking your penis in it whenever you want to, equals the epitome of a great relationship...well, that's both selfish, short sighted and convenient.
> *
> Again, I could assume that you are saying that the only purpose my wife of 17 years and friend of 23 years serves is as a " floaty " to stick my penis into .
> Again, I could take serious offence, but I won't.
> Nowhere in ANY of my post on TAM have I EVER said that I have sex with my wife whenever I want to have sex. I've ALWAYS said that I have NEVER ASKED my wife for sex. Our relationship is VERY SEXUAL and there is no need for me to ask. All I do is initiate. In any event , my wife has a HIGHER SEX DRIVE than I, and I have said numerous times that she DEMANDS SEX.
> So does that make me a " floaty" or " sex toy " she uses whenever she has the urge?
> I think not.
> 
> *To allude to the fact that most women have BPD traits and need to be controlled and led is gross and disgusting.*
> 
> There is not a single post on this thread where I said that most women are BPD. This is exactly what I said.
> 
> 11-10-2012 @ 06.15PM poat #48
> 
> "...........Really?
> 
> What's so funny about women defining themselves and what works for them ,and *a *man defining himself and what works for him?
> 
> What's so funny about* a* man who decides to stand up for himself , and not allow *an* insecure , BPD control freak to bully him?"
> 
> 
> *I hate when losers limit our humanity based upon their stupid assumptions that are conjured up to make their lives less complicated and get them more SEX. Perhaps only a few men are evolved to the point where they understand that under appreciating someone, discounting them, not caring how they feel is ridiculously self serving and entitled and certainly not about love. But hey! You're Alpha! She secretly wants this! Yay for you! You found the perfect scheme to excuse your disgusting behavior to get what you want.*
> 
> My wife goes on an island cruise EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Next year will be St. Lucia, all paid for by ME.
> My wife has her own bank accounts , DOES NOT HAVE TO EVEN COOK BECAUSE I LOVE TO COOK. I DO THE LAUNDRY,
> I wash the dishes, I purchase most of her clothing and shoes, I take her out to the finest restaurants, and shows and I PAY FOR EVERYTHING. And anyone who reads my threads on TAM would know these things, and there is much more.
> Are you really saying that I am a ridiculous and self serving husband to my wife?
> If so, then hat lse do you suggest I do that I'm not doing?
> 
> My wife appreciates the effort I place into our marriage,
> she respects me .That's why we have no problem with sex.
> I NEVER EVEN have to ask her for sex.
> I CREATE THE ENVIRONMENT, and she likes it like that.
> That is what works in OUR marriage.
> 
> 
> *CM...I used to appreciate your posts. * After reading this thread I am seriously wanting to knock the beret off your Avi's head and your Avi is of one of my idols.
> 
> Well , that's no problem with me.
> I hold absolutely nothing against you , and I will *still *look out for your post and try to encourage you as I've always done.
> Its not that I agreed with everything you said in your post, but I _understand and respect_ your point of view.


----------



## Caribbean Man

SimplyAmorous said:


> Gonna have to agree with you on this part Trenton!
> 
> Some men here would call my husband the "loser" - cause God forbid ...he asked me for a Hand job, well only once that I can even recall. Yeah, he could have done it more erotically -got me worked up first - in our past... live and learn...
> 
> He was never a beatin' his chest Alpha Male... but I'm not going to look down on him either.
> 
> That type of attitude turns me off ... not on.


SA,
Both you and your husband's marriage is very unique and special. Both of you are the exact fit, like two opposite pieces in a jigsaw puzzle.
If you had married ta man with more aggressive Alpha traits, the marriage would have failed because you have those traits in you, and there would have been power struggles.
You respect your husband and put him first.
If he was married to another woman , with the same traits who didn't respect him, he would be in serious trouble. Both of you have the correct mixture of traits to make it work, and most of all,
You R-E-S-P-E-C-T and LOVE your husband.
You all share the same values.
It is what makes your marriage work.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> OP,
> If you want to get a real perspective of what a good Alpha male husband is, from a woman who actually KNOWS what she's talking about,
> 
> Then go to this thread.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/59822-married-alpha-male.html
> 
> Have a good read. It is VERY insightful.


Yes it is insightful alright, Please DO click on that link !! Oh wouldn't men around the globe LOVE for their women to go on about them like FaithfulWife...... how all women throw themselves at him, he knows he can get sex with any woman he chooses......how their market values are *so high*- they have to literally swoop in to save each other from predators... and a sweet Slam to the Beta male as being weak, lame & silly. 

Do Me a favor....if I ever start talking like this about my marriage, will someone please drown me in the river!!









Now Granted, I wasn't getting it at 1st... she wasn't trying to put others down - but yeah...that's all I picked up on.....inflated EGO in overdrive... silly me !!! (Alot of what the women are feeling on this very thread from the men...but a wife going on about her husband like that). 

What came out of that thread after a little grilling and me not being so subtle in how she rubbed me the wrong way bashing the Beta male -having to let her know her man has lots of GOOD Beta too..... 

Lon said it best ..Post #8


> *Lon said:* But what I am getting out of this thread is that a little *self-delusion* can actually be healthy and one very plausible way to help us find fulfillment and happiness in a relationship.


Then a little further on, we realize it's not LOOKS at all, but *PRESENCE* best explained by Halien ..Post #147 ..... An ALPHA Presence.... that women are throwing themselves at him... very interesting. 

I wasn't getting it again! 

I guess this is what all Men need to strive for then.. .an Alpha PRESENCE...so then women suddenly will turn themselves into hungry predators for you.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Trenton said:


> CM:
> My post was not directly speaking to you but rather to the overall attitudes being promoted in this thread. It's certainly not the first of this kind and won't be the last, I'm sure.
> 
> *I addressed you directly at the end of the my post because I was very specifically surprised and disappointed to read some of the things you posted.*


Which of *my post* were offensive or degrading to women to the point that it enraged you?


----------



## Lyris

jaquen said:


> First off, let me say that I agree with almost your entire post. It definitely wasn't my intention to demonize Feminism. It is a _necessary_ movement, and the positive outcomes have outweighed the ills.
> 
> Having said that, it is a movement. And movements of adequation thrive by pushing the envelope in an attempt to equalize. Sometimes, however, the pendulum can be swung too far.
> 
> One of the great byproducts of the Feminist movement is the deepening understanding, and celebration, of female sexuality. Women are allowed socially to embrace their sexuality, and it's inherent power, more now than ever. While not perfect, of course, we've come a long, long way. That is a good thing, for both men and women.
> 
> But a byproduct of that has been the inverse effect it's had on our collective perception of male sexuality. It's very acceptable in modernity, in the West, to celebrate female sexuality. There are countless books, magazines, and studies devoted to female sexuality. Besides promiscuity, which men are still allowed to practice with relatively little consequence, female sexuality is collectively embraced. Especially espoused is the idea of _choice_.
> 
> Women, with very little stigma, are allowed to withhold sex. There is a prevailing attitude that women are the gatekeepers now of sex, and basically what they so goes. Don't want to provide sex to your horny, leering spouse? That's OK, he's just a man, and men always want sex, and he'll get over it.
> 
> Romance novels, and erotica aimed at women, has almost non-existent backlash in comparison to sexually explicit material aimed at men. Girls out at the strip club are having great fun; men at the strip club ought to be ashamed of themselves. Porn is an evil men use to destroy their marriages; _50 Shades of Grey_ is the best thing to happen to women...ever. Hang your head in shame over that _Playboy_, but before you do can you pass me that copy of the new Harlequin "novel" on your way to sexual purgatory?
> 
> Want to experiment with other women? Sure some will have a problem, but a lot will just take it as a playful sexy fun. Catch a man experimenting with other men, and he's stamped for life.
> 
> 
> Vibrators are a gift from God! Male sex toys, porn, and masturbation are creepy things best confined to darkened bathrooms, if they need to be done at all.
> 
> A middle aged woman with a 25 year old is a spicy "cougar". A 55 year old man with a 25 year old is a dirty old man.
> 
> Wife refuses to have sex? Work overtime men to push her buttons, wine and dine her, find out her deepest needs, washt more dishes, be more "alpha", make her feel good. Husband refuses to have sex? Leave him, he's not normal, is being cruel, and is possibly gay.
> 
> Pay a man you don't know a compliment on his looks? Great! Pay a woman you don't know a compliment on her looks? Sexual harassment!
> 
> We are at a season now where we are celebrating a lot (though admittedly not all) aspects of female sexuality. But as we embrace the feminine more, we are demonizing the masculine.


I appreciate your post here Jaquen, and I was glad to read you weren't advocating a return to Pre-feminism days, which is what I tend to assume when I read posts here blaming feminism for all of societies ills.

What I do want to say though, is that, while everything you have said above is true, there is more going on under the surface.
I think there has been a largely market/media drive to "celebrate" women's sexuality on the surface, precisely because it isn't seen as serious or real or offering any kind of threat. People think its cute when women go to strip clubs. It's not real. It's rare, too. I'd say there'd be very few if any women who make weekly trips to a strip club. The number of male to female strip clubs would bear this out. 

As for 'cougars', yeah, I guess it's kind of celebrated, in a secretly contemptuous kind of way. But how often does it really happen? And I don't agree that men ate reviled for the same behaviour. Men ten and twenty years older than their partners barely raise an eyebrow. Women that much older _are reported about in magazines_

I won't go through this point by point. But generally, my contention is that women are not taken seriously by men. And there is a level of seething resentment and anger towards women from men that I find, as a woman and a mother of daughters, very frightening. 

There are feminists who view male sexuality just as you've said. I think it was Betty Friedan who was quoted as saying, "all men are rapists" although she later said she had been misquoted and badly misunderstood. However, I believe a truly feminist society, where women feel safe, secure and fully respected, would be more likely to support them to have fully sexual lives. 

Women are seen as the gatekeepers if sex. But I think that's just an old attitude reinforced with the feminist idea of choice and agency over their bodies. In Victorian England, well-born women were expected to be horrified by sex, so men routinely went to prostitutes or had mistresses. To be respected as a woman, you had to be disgusted by men and sex. There's a lot of that attitude still hanging around. Add that to the idea that men can't control themselves, so it's up to women to put the brakes on. Don't wear short skirts or you'll be raped. 

Where I live there was recently a terrible case of a young woman who was abducted, raped and murdered while walking the 700metres home along a popular and busy street after a night out. There was article after article condemning her for being stupid enough to be pretty and walking home at night. Hardly any were written explicitly condemning her murderer. I'd happily give up the hysterical 'Magic Mike' reporting if we could get rid of the victim blaming stuff too.

This is way too long. Sorry. One last thing. Ultimately I think men and women have biologically incompatible sexual drives over the long term. Incompatible with long-term sexual exclusivity anyway. That doesn't mean that I think a happy, LTR sex life is impossible, but I think that the loss of female desire for her long-term partner is often biological and hormonal and when women say they don't know why they don't want sex, they are telling the truth.

I'm not giving anyone a pass, though. Although I don't think women, or men, should have sex if they don't want to, it is never ever okay for one partner to unilaterally decide the relationship is sexless or low-sex. Either women (I'm saying women, because that's what this thread is about) work out a way to start wanting sex with their partners again, or they take sexual exclusivity away as an expectation. I'm assuming the men in the relationships are not unreasonable, selfish jerks here btw, and that they are holding up their side of the relationship. Only their side though. Not bending over backwards or jumping through crazy hoops.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Trenton said:


> *The whole Alpha thing is flat out BS and I take offense to this idea that as a woman I secretly long for a man to take control and demand a hand job. *Seriously? Who does this help? If it helps a man get more sex, great, if all we care about is the sexual satisfaction of men that is.


Sorry,
I can't accept that this entire thread was about women wanting to be secretly dominated by a man , just waiting to give him a handjob.
In fact almost most posters tried to dissuade the OP from the idea of upping his Alpha in order to get more sex.

For brevity's sake I will just post the two most poignant posts on this entire thread by the moderators themselves.

*11.01.2012 @ 02.23 PM post# 36 by Moderator Deejo*

"....Anyone that believes that 'being a jerk' is the goal, simply doesn't get it. I stopped trying to make them get it a very long time ago.

But ... here is what I can tell you the goal is ... exactly the words you wrote above and I bolded.

*The goal is being a better, more self-aware, and accountable man ... whether your wife loves it or hates it is immaterial. On the whole, those behaviors make you a better, and more attractive man.*

And I am sorry that things didn't work out for you, but respect your decision to find something that does......"

................................................................................................
.* 02.11.2012 @ 9.56AM post #95 by Moderator Halien
*

"....I think that there is an inherent risk when you begin to incorporate your wife's actions or response into your own journey into becoming the man you want to be. I think that you are trying to avoid that, but it might be worth discussing. Trust me, find the inner man within you, and most folks will follow. Same goes for women, also, if they seek that inner strength to define who they are. 

Keep the focus on who you want to be as a man. Most will want to be respected, loved by those we love, and be the kind of person who makes a difference. Keep the focus here, and many in your life will follow. 

Some people in my life describe me as strong-minded, focused, and alpha, while we actually use different terminology. But I want my wife to feel loved and respected, while having reason to feel the same for me. Frankly, she's smarter than me in some areas of life. I'm no longer intimidated by that. But as a man who grew up in a mixed culture, around strong native american family in my earliest years, it was important to me to follow the better path, avoiding the traits that feed weakness, fear and inaction. If a new problem enters our life, I will seek the advice of my wife, but she knows that I can't stand inaction. My motto is to move forward. A large portion of the time, she nods and I just move us forward. She says that she responds to that leadership, but only when it is carried by respect and love for her, which sometimes means following her wisdom.

*I'm just suggesting that you keep the focus on the type of man you want to be. Don't measure it by her position behind you. As Deejo mentioned, make your relationship the measure, the emotional satisfaction in the relationship, but not her response to each and every thing you do. Do YOU make her life more exciting, fulfilling, and content? Beta is all about getting tripped up into worrying about her response, how much she does or doesn't do, or letting your fear of some situation grip you with inaction, at least to the point that it dominates your thinking. Those things have a place in our thought life, but becoming a stronger man is all about having a stronger sense of self, and confidence in the abilities we have. Includes being honest about ourself, our limitations, and aptitude...."
*
.................................................................................................


If you think that the entire entire Alpha concept is BS, then that is your view. But I think its unfair to vilify any man who has tried some of the principles espoused and experienced success in a relationship that was otherwise bankrupt and dysfunctional.

You said:
"..*.I am strong willed, capable, hard working, feminine and nurturing as well. I certainly don't want or need to be told that I don't know what I wan*t ..."

What you need to understand, is that lots of men feel this way :

"...*I am strong willed, capable, hard working, MAN and nurturing as well. I certainly don't want or need to be told that I don't know what I want .."*

As well.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Apology accepted.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*WHY?*


----------



## Caribbean Man

And I figure if we cut out the " nauseous " , irrelevant parts of this thread, some very good concepts and ideas pertaining to manhood has been discussed and there is still much room for improvement.

There are still quite a few " omega " men out there who need the positive information presented on threads like this.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

michzz said:


> I figure alpha has been discussed ad nauseous. Appropriate term to end It. You know, a sense of humor?


We have not yet begun to discuss. If women are embracing a code that elevates independence over relationship and withholding over giving, men need to understand this and have a response. If that's not what is happening, men still need to strengthen their marriages and the best way to do this is by strengthening themselves. Maybe that's alpha and maybe it's not but it sound like it might be a good start


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Ten_year_hubby said:


> We have not yet begun to discuss. If women are embracing a code that elevates independence over relationship and withholding over giving, men need to understand this and have a response. If that's not what is happening, men still need to strengthen their marriages and the best way to do this is by strengthening themselves. Maybe that's alpha and maybe it's not but it sound like it might be a good start


I really appreciate your response. Thought felt and true. I can understand how many men think in this day and age that it is about independence for women over relationship and withholding over giving, I really can. For me however, as a die hard feminist, I married the man I loved and I wanted nothing more than to be one with him and compromise. 

To me an alpha isn't the guy who has the most amount of sex or is the most attractive. I now realize that to me, it is the man who makes the woman who loves him feel like the most important person on Earth. That's an alpha to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I really appreciate your response. Thought felt and true. I can understand how many men think in this day and age that it is about independence for women over relationship and withholding over giving, I really can. For me however, as a die hard feminist, I married the man I loved and I wanted nothing more than to be one with him and compromise.
> 
> To me an alpha isn't the guy who has the most amount of sex or is the most attractive. I now realize that to me, it is the man who makes the woman who loves him feel like the most important person on Earth. That's an alpha to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I love this.:smthumbup:


----------



## Amyd

Adex said:


> Women want the alpha, but how can you attain it? I myself don't think of myself as a pure alpha. I used to be nice and try to get along with everyone. However, over the years I learned that it's better to be more alpha for your career and in your marriage.
> 
> Some things I try to do myself that have helped me:
> 
> -Whenever there's a decision to be made, I try to decide one way or another without hesitation. Even if it's as small as where are we going to eat or what do I want to do. I decide and she follows.
> 
> -I'm not as nice to my spouse in terms of helping around the house or with my kid. I don't show her much affection. Whatever she does, I do a bit less. This makes her like me more.
> 
> My sex life has improved as a result. Any other ideas? Becoming the alpha is a learning process...


If this is a joke it's not very funny. If it's true...then I'm sorry for your wife.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I really appreciate your response. Thought felt and true. I can understand how many men think in this day and age that it is about independence for women over relationship and withholding over giving, I really can. For me however, as a die hard feminist, I married the man I loved and I wanted nothing more than to be one with him and compromise.
> 
> To me an alpha isn't the guy who has the most amount of sex or is the most attractive. I now realize that to me, it is the man who makes the woman who loves him feel like the most important person on Earth. That's an alpha to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree if it is accompanied by that man having self respect and strong boundaries. Without those, the danger of becoming a doormat is just too great.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Therealbrighteyes said:


> it is the man who makes the woman who loves him feel like the most important person on Earth. That's an alpha to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, a very good description indeed. My hat goes off to everyone who can make other people feel really good about themselves, especially when the other person is their spouse. This may be the single greatest goal in my life. It's a big reason I am glued to this thread


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Tall Average Guy said:


> I agree if it is accompanied by that man having self respect and strong boundaries. Without those, the danger of becoming a doormat is just too great.


Boundaries are important, really, really important for both sexes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

Tall Average Guy said:


> I agree if it is accompanied by that man having self respect and strong boundaries. *Without those, the danger of becoming a doormat is just too great.*


And what is a home without a doormat?
Front door, kitchen,bathroom , and last but not least, the bedroom. Doormats are plentiful.

That's why topics like this will always be controversial and cause tempers to flare.
It forces cognitive dissonance on the listeners of both genders.

"...._You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland_......."


----------



## juicecondensation

Is it really that important to be alpha though? Maybe I'm naive or something but I don't think even most women think that they have to be with an "alpha" male. Infact I don't think most women even think about if a man is alpha/beta or not... Am I wrong?


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

juicecondensation said:


> I don't think most women even think about if a man is alpha/beta or not... Am I wrong?


It's never been real clear to me exactly what women think. Despite the best efforts of many well meaning women in this forum to help me with this. I pretty much observe actions without delving too much into the thought behind them.


----------



## Caribbean Man

juicecondensation said:


> Is it really that important to be alpha though? Maybe I'm naive or something but I don't think even most women think that they have to be with an "alpha" male. Infact I don't think most women even think about if a man is alpha/beta or not... Am I wrong?


Its not about being an " Alpha male".
Its about defining yourself as a man.
Working on yourself to improve yourself.
Defining your limits and boundaries. Knowing what to accept and what to reject.
This is what other people are attracted to including women.


----------



## NEM

I also believe that the society in this day and age we are living in, women don't necessarily accept a pure alpha male traits. Men need to be well balance in form of positive alpha and beta traits. Meaning we need to trigger the alpha and beta traits in a suitable moments so you are not predictable all the time.

I truly believed beta male are easily getting pushed over in their marriage and their wives will not appreciate all the good things he has done for her.

Unfortunately, we are living in a reality not a dream when LOVE was all you needed to have a happy marriage. Its far more complicated. Every marriage/relationship are different, you need to find the right formula to make it work and by analyzing yourself first and work on your weakness is the best way to go since you cannot change your partner, you can only change yourself first and your partner will respond to those changes.

Be strong but at the same time be gentle is the key for a man to have a healthy and respectable marriage.


----------



## In Absentia

I'm not alpha at all... maybe it's a turn-off for some women, but there are plenty that appreciate a caring man who does a lot for the family... in that sense, I am a bit alpha, I suppose. I don't really care if I'm not "bastard" enough for some women. I like who I am.


----------



## Caribbean Man

NEM said:


> Be strong but at the same time be gentle is the key for a man to have a healthy and respectable marriage.


Key words:
Strong...........Society tend to frown on strong men. They prefer men who can be " politically correct ", and flexible all of the time. Easily bent in any direction. 

Gentle............A man can be strong and gentle at the same time. But it takes some thought. Sadly, people are afraid to think for themselves, they prefer to " go with the flow." People no longer reason things based on logic. Their reasoning is based solely on feelings at any given point and time.
A strong mat is able to control and express his feelings. He can be gentle.

Healthy and RESPECTABLE marriage........... Without respect, absolutely no marriage could last, and the relationship would be abusive. Husband does not respect wife , it turns into emotional abuse then verbal abuse then physical abuse.
Wife does not respect husband, it turns into emotional abuse , (withholding sex etc), then verbal abuse , and then physical abuse.

It's a delicate balancing act.


----------



## jaquen

NEM said:


> I truly believed beta male are easily getting pushed over in their marriage and their wives will not appreciate all the good things he has done for her.


I will admit, due to my parent's marriage, and now my own, it's very tough for me to comprehend a man allowing himself to be pushed over by a woman in marriage. Of course I know that this phenom is pretty common, but still I can't wrap my mind fully around the concept.


----------



## Holland

In Absentia said:


> I'm not alpha at all... maybe it's a turn-off for some women, but there are plenty that appreciate a caring man who does a lot for the family... in that sense, I am a bit alpha, I suppose. *I don't really care if I'm not "bastard" enough for some women.* I like who I am.


Being "bastard enough" is not alpha anyway.


----------



## In Absentia

Holland said:


> Being "bastard enough" is not alpha anyway.


you mean a 'total bastard', then...


----------



## AFEH

In Absentia said:


> you mean a 'total bastard', then...


You sound like you got run over by a truck.


The type of Alpha the men here talk of is not the jerk driving the truck but the ones with enough balls to take the jerk on and dominate the b*st*rd.


----------



## In Absentia

AFEH said:


> You sound like you got run over by a truck.
> 
> 
> The type of Alpha the men here talk of is not the jerk driving the truck but the ones with enough balls to take the jerk on and dominate the b*st*rd.


I meant bastard as someone who does his own thing, regardless of what other people think. That could turn you into a bit of a bastard, occasionally, I suppose?


----------



## AFEH

In Absentia said:


> I meant bastard as someone who does his own thing, regardless of what other people think. That could turn you into a bit of a bastard, occasionally, I suppose?


The type of Alpha spoken of here is the guy you want on your side when a jerks having a go at you or when you’re being mugged, that type of thing.


You know the one, that brave, non cowardly guy who’ll protect you no matter what the odds are. Provided of course you’re part of his pack in which case he’ll defend you no matter what harm may come to him. If you’re not part of his pack, then it “just depends” in that maybe he will, maybe he wont.


Of course, it’s far better for you to become more Alpha by learning how to defend yourself and those you love “just in case”. Dropping those emoticons would be a good start. The females like them though.


----------



## In Absentia

AFEH said:


> Dropping those emoticons would be a good start. The females like them though.


Thank you for the explanation... I don't think there is really any correlation between using emoticons and being alpha, surely... they just help communication. Anyway, I have no intention of becoming alpha... I'm happy as I am.


----------



## betta

I flatly refuse to be "alpha." I can be agentic, master of my own destiny, competent, confident, and still not be "alpha." If the wife doesn't like it, she can find somebody else who will treat her like crap. If she can't take responsibility for her own life, she needs to learn how. Period. Which, by the way, is agentic and respecful of her as an individual, not alpha.


----------



## BjornFree

AFEH said:


> You sound like you got run over by a truck.
> 
> 
> The type of Alpha the men here talk of is not the jerk driving the truck but the ones with enough balls to take the jerk on and dominate the b*st*rd.


You sound pissed off. Why??


----------



## AFEH

betta said:


> I flatly refuse to be "alpha." I can be agentic, master of my own destiny, competent, confident, and still not be "alpha." If the wife doesn't like it, she can find somebody else who will treat her like crap. If she can't take responsibility for her own life, she needs to learn how. Period. Which, by the way, is agentic and respecful of her as an individual, not alpha.


Are you paying your way in your life? Are you able to provide your wife with all she needs in times of pregnancies and child rearing? Can you provide for your family without help from anybody else whatsoever? If someone breaks into your home and attacks your family are you able to and will you defend them? Have you planned such that should you be killed your family is well taken care of? Can you support your children in their education? If your wife is ill or needs an operation, can you pay for it and support her in her time of need all the while keeping the roof over your heads and the food on the table? Etc. etc.


If you can do those things and more then you are a Man with a lot of Alpha in you. If you can make your wife laugh, love, respect and appreciate you and to willingly provide you with all the good sex and good food you could ever need then you are a Man who has it made.


Sometimes it’s better just to drop the alpha, beta whatever stuff because of the negative connotations. Make up your mind what type of Man you want to be and be that Man.


You will find that it’s mainly to do with boundaries and the rules you live your life by. A few of those boundaries are boundaries of Intolerance. Too much tolerance and a doormat you become.


----------



## AFEH

BjornFree said:


> You sound pissed off. Why??


I've low tolerance for tyre kickers.


No problems with those with a genuine desire to help or with those in need.


----------



## AFEH

In Absentia said:


> Thank you for the explanation... I don't think there is really any correlation between using emoticons and being alpha, surely... they just help communication. Anyway, I have no intention of becoming alpha... I'm happy as I am.


For me the emoticons are feminine, not masculine. Much like adding x's at the end of an email on instant messaging, very feminine and I get surprised when guys do it to guys.


And what on earth is that drinking with straws all about?


Still, I'm in my sixties so see these things differently to most.


----------



## AFEH

betta said:


> I flatly refuse to be "alpha." I can be agentic, master of my own destiny, competent, confident, and still not be "alpha." If the wife doesn't like it, she can find somebody else who will treat her like crap. If she can't take responsibility for her own life, she needs to learn how. Period. Which, by the way, is agentic and respecful of her as an individual, not alpha.


Is this what you mean by agentic?

_Agentic leadership derives from the term agency. This leadership style is generally found in the business field by a person who is in control of subordinates. This person demonstrates assertiveness, competitiveness, independence, courageousness, and is masterful in achieving their task at hand._ Agentic leadership - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


If it is then you can’t do what you do unless you have “control” and “subordinates” to control. Believe me if that is the case it doesn’t bode well for your marriage. Plus it sounds like the “Alpha Jerk” type of guy. Everything else in the description is my type of Alpha.

If you really are thinking that way you are going to get shet tested big time by your wife.


Leadership through motivation and inspiration is the way to go. Not leadership through control and management.


I feel somehow certain the above is not what you meant when you described yourself as agentic. It’s at odds with the other things you say in your post.


----------



## BjornFree

AFEH said:


> I've low tolerance for tyre kickers.
> 
> 
> No problems with those with a genuine desire to help or with those in need.


Well as it turns out, this is a public forum which has a predefined set of rules and (un)fortunately those 'tyre kickers' aren't going against any rules by expressing their opinions on the subject 

And tolerance is an issue best left for the mods to handle. Understandably a lot of people have low tolerance, which inevitably gets them into trouble on here and elsewhere. 

I don't find anything wrong with emoticons and I'm in my late fifties. And I don't have to conform to someone else's perception of what is feminine and what is masculine. If someone feels that using an 'x' or a smiley is feminine, well that's just the way the said person feels. If this person does not make use of emoticons, well and good. No reason to discourage another from using it, just so that the latter will seem more 'masculine'.

Peace.


----------



## AFEH

For me as a man it’s about being masculine and it’s about being not feminine.


I think a lot of modern men have somehow been feminised and a big part of what’s going on is to get out of touch with their feminine side and back into to touch with their masculine side.


I’m also of the mind to think that these things start at a very young age, perhaps such that some of “today’s men” have never truly been in touch with their masculine side such has been the depth of their feminisation.

It’s like they’ve somehow been feminised/emasculated since birth and now want to be a Man.

But looking at being Alpha, Beta or whatever just confuses their masculation process. For me it’s far better to learn the rules, beliefs, values, qualities and boundaries of a Masculine Man and be that Man. If indeed that’s what the guy wants to be.


----------



## AFEH

BjornFree said:


> Well as it turns out, this is a public forum which has a predefined set of rules and (un)fortunately those 'tyre kickers' aren't going against any rules by expressing their opinions on the subject
> 
> And tolerance is an issue best left for the mods to handle. Understandably a lot of people have low tolerance, which inevitably gets them into trouble on here and elsewhere.
> 
> I don't find anything wrong with emoticons and I'm in my late fifties. And I don't have to conform to someone else's perception of what is feminine and what is masculine. If someone feels that using an 'x' or a smiley is feminine, well that's just the way the said person feels. If this person does not make use of emoticons, well and good. No reason to discourage another from using it, just so that the latter will seem more 'masculine'.
> 
> Peace.


Good for you. But I see you are another who hasn’t posted a problem they want help with resolving.


And just like those people what you actually do is tyre kick and criticise those who, like me try and help others out.


What on earth you get out of it is way beyond me.


----------



## BjornFree

AFEH said:


> Good for you. But I see you are another who hasn’t posted a problem they want help with resolving.
> 
> 
> And just like those people what you actually do is tyre kick and criticise those who, like me try and help others out.
> 
> 
> What on earth you get out of it is way beyond me.


I bow to your wisdom. Good day.


----------



## In Absentia

AFEH said:


> Good for you. But I see you are another who hasn’t posted a problem they want help with resolving.
> 
> 
> And just like those people what you actually do is tyre kick and criticise those who, like me try and help others out.
> 
> 
> What on earth you get out of it is way beyond me.


we can all draw from our own experience and try and help others regardless of whether we have posted a problem or not. I don't think the one excludes the other.


----------



## Caribbean Man

AFEH said:


> *I think a lot of modern men have somehow been feminised and a big part of what’s going on is to get out of touch with their feminine side and back into to touch with their masculine side.*
> 
> *I’m also of the mind to think that these things start at a very young age, perhaps such that some of “today’s men” have never truly been in touch with their masculine side such has been the depth of their feminisation.*
> 
> It’s like they’ve somehow been feminised/emasculated since birth and now want to be a Man.


:iagree:
And lots of them are beyond feminine to the point where they are of no real use to themselves or a woman , except for her to use as a wipe or doormat .
_All of their masculine qualities are extinct._
Some of these men are not married to wives, they are married to a manager or a superior.


----------



## Cre8ify

Take a long look at the Millennials and Generation Y.

In the space of a generation women now outnumber men by significant numbers in our universities. 

Traditional male employment in manufacturing, construction have been decimated.

Young men seem to have computer games as their core competency.

Boys have been sent to school earlier and earlier when in truth they are barely ready at age 5 to keep pace with the girl's development.

Political correctness has called out traditional boy behaviors toward girls as boorish and crass and neutered their natural instincts. 

We have millions of 20 and early 30 something men who are nowhere close to able to man-up. Whatever we are discussing here, we are on the front end of a demographic avalanche.


----------



## Open up now let it all go

Blablabla. No offense but every generation always believes they're the top of the cherry and the next ones are just so much downhill.


----------



## jaquen

You know what I find to be the height of feminine? Spending hours discussing and obsessing over other men's usage of emoticons.

Just saying.


----------



## Cre8ify

No offense taken but I see it all around me. Young men with their whole lives ahead of them walking around medicated like zombies. Young women trying to get them to stand on their feet so they can dream together.

I am part of the most selfish demographic group in the history of the world...cherry, I think not.


----------



## jaquen

Cre8ify said:


> No offense taken but I see it all around me. Young men with their whole lives ahead of them walking around medicated like zombies. Young women trying to get them to stand on their feet so they can dream together.
> 
> *I am part of the most selfish demographic group in the history of the world...cherry, I think not.*


The Boomers?


----------



## AFEH

jaquen said:


> You know what I find to be the height of feminine? Spending hours discussing and obsessing over other men's usage of emoticons.
> 
> Just saying.


Massive over exaggeration. While very sweet of you not much masculinity in it.


----------



## BjornFree

Cre8ify said:


> No offense taken but I see it all around me. Young men with their whole lives ahead of them walking around medicated like zombies. Young women trying to get them to stand on their feet so they can dream together.


You give these boys much too much credit. Who are the ones responsible for shaping these young men to be better people( not alphas)? Who are the ones responsible to guide them and inspire them to achieve all they are meant to?

Definitely not our generation. Because all we seem to be able to accomplish is to sit back and complain about how life isn't fair or how lazy the young ones have become.

I for one have a lot of faith in the youngsters, girls and boys, they're achieving a lot more and they're not harping about it. How would you expect a guy to not walk around like a zombie when his father or mother or both were doing the same and neglecting their responsibilities as parents?How would you expect this young man to be a productive individual when all he would have seen in his childhood was his father or mother piss drunk all the time??


----------



## jaquen

AFEH said:


> Massive over exaggeration. While very sweet of you not much masculinity in it.


OK Mr. Alpha. OK.

:rofl:


----------



## Cre8ify

Raw nerve there Bjorn, sorry man. Yes boomers, the most prolific consumers and debt creators in the history of the world.

I love working with kids and find many ways to do so. I have as much hope for them as anyone. And yes, I have seen plenty of parents fall down on the job. And I have seen plenty of parents hover too close and damage development. All true...BUT...the truth remains...when its about becoming alpha we are tying young men's hands.


----------



## BjornFree

We aren't, the laws are. Ever wonder why men these days have so much commitment phobia or why they fear women as they do? Its because the laws are framed such that men get the short end of the stick. Women in the sixties fought tooth and nail for their rights and got what they want. Unless we men stand up and fight for ourselves rather than blaming fingers at ultra feminazis or wallow in self pity. We will always be churning out men who live in fear and go into relationships with the same mentality. 

Its not because they've lost their masculinity, its because the laws and the media discourage them from being masculine.


----------



## Cre8ify

Amen.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

kind of off topic but kind of not but I HATE the way the media and companies do commercials and such that portray men as SUCH COMPLETE MORONS! The wife is always in this scolding maternal light while the husband is always the dopey,a.d.d.,childlike distracted type without a clue. 
It grates on me like crazy.


----------



## Cre8ify

Great point Scarlet--If those advertising messages did not sell products they would not make it on the screen. If those programs did not leave the viewer feeling "connected" with an "assimilation" to the characters portrayed on the screen there would be no viewership. This is our culture and it is deeply embedded.

As a businessman, it is not lost on me that the cultures who are kicking our economic a**es would never portray a man in that fashion.


----------



## Caribbean Man

BjornFree said:


> *We aren't, the laws are.*
> 
> Its not because they've lost their masculinity, its because the laws and the media discourage them from being masculine.


.......and we put the lawmakers into office.
Its a circular argument.
The irony is that while we were laughing at Raymond and Homer Simpson, we were actually laughing at ourselves.

Take a good look at the male stereotype in family sitcoms.


----------



## Adex

Haven't seen this in awhile and it's 31 pages! It is agreed for all men, it's better to be more alpha than beta.


----------



## BjornFree

Adex said:


> Haven't seen this in awhile and it's 31 pages! It is agreed for all men, it's better to be more alpha than beta.


And how, may I ask, did you come to that conclusion?


----------



## ScarletBegonias

after 31 pages I'm still at the conclusion of it's best to be good to each other,best to not take advantage of each others kindness,to handle all situations with dignity and class,and to treat others how you would like to be treated.If they don't return the favor then you speak up about it in a respectful way. If they don't treat you better after that and you KNOW you're doing every thing you can to earn the treatment you desire,then it's time to move on.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

ScarletBegonias said:


> after 31 pages I'm still at the conclusion of it's best to be good to each other,best to not take advantage of each others kindness,to handle all situations with dignity and class,and to treat others how you would like to be treated.If they don't return the favor then you speak up about it in a respectful way. If they don't treat you better after that and you KNOW you're doing every thing you can to earn the treatment you desire,then it's time to move on.


Yeah - I'm tired of labels. We already have too many of them in the world. I know it helps people make sense of things but I dislike them.


----------



## Ikaika

ScarletBegonias said:


> after 31 pages I'm still at the conclusion of it's best to be good to each other,best to not take advantage of each others kindness,to handle all situations with dignity and class,and to treat others how you would like to be treated.If they don't return the favor then you speak up about it in a respectful way. If they don't treat you better after that and you KNOW you're doing every thing you can to earn the treatment you desire,then it's time to move on.


Amen, so well put. The title to the thread itself is funny. The joke that gets passed on among biological scientist. If you wanted to be someone you should have chosen the right parent and don't get old.


----------



## AFEH

drerio said:


> Amen, so well put. The title to the thread itself is funny. The joke that gets passed on among biological scientist. *If you wanted to be someone you should have chosen the right parent and don't get old.*


Part of being an Alpha is to hold yourself totally accountable and responsible for your actions and where you are in your life. Least of all to blame your parents or your age for your position in life. That’s exceptionally beta.


----------



## Ikaika

AFEH said:


> Part of being an Alpha is to hold yourself totally accountable and responsible for your actions and where you are in your life. Least of all to blame your parents or your age for your position in life. That’s exceptionally beta.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## BjornFree

AFEH said:


> Part of being an Alpha is to hold yourself totally accountable and responsible for your actions and where you are in your life. Least of all to blame your parents or your age for your position in life. That’s exceptionally beta.


I'd like to call it part of being an adult.


----------



## Caribbean Man

ScarletBegonias said:


> after 31 pages I'm still at the conclusion of it's best to be good to each other,best to not take advantage of each others kindness,to handle all situations with dignity and class,and to treat others how you would like to be treated.If they don't return the favor then you speak up about it in a respectful way. If they don't treat you better after that and you KNOW you're doing every thing you can to earn the treatment you desire,then it's time to move on.


Of course that's the ideal.
But when children are involved, or general lack of self confidence, one might want to consider his options before moving on...........


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

I have the greatest respect and admiration for the naysayers and detractors in this thread, I would have to be blind not to see that many if not most people have significantly better life experiences than me. It's only human nature to blame myself and feel that I have brought this all on myself and maybe I have.

Whatever circumstances, personal failings or enemy actions have brought me to the position I am in, this is the life I have to live and I am the only person I can do something about. To the extent that describing, categorizing and classifying behavior helps us to understand ourselves and how we affect the world we live in, it is a positive activity. People all over are hurting, both men and women. If any of us can find our way to use these concepts to at least try to make ourselves better persons and have better relationships, I consider it to be a major positive.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

BjornFree said:


> I'd like to call it part of being an adult.


I completely agree. Unfortunately a lot of people aren't being an adult in their relationships for any number of reasons and striving to be one is a good thing in my book


----------



## AFEH

drerio said:


> :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


There you blow.


----------



## Ikaika

AFEH said:


> There you blow.


Actually when I think of someone trying to be something they are not only one image comes to mind
http://youtu.be/ZLsg0EvZozI


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

With all due respect, I tell my kids that they are in control of themselves and they choose what they are through their view of themselves rather than some fixed accident of birth or whatever


----------



## Caribbean Man

Ten_year_hubby said:


> *Whatever circumstances, personal failings or enemy actions have brought me to the position I am in, this is the life I have to live and I am the only person I can do something about.*


"...Men at some time are masters of their fates.

The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars

But in ourselves, that we are underlings..."

Julius Ceasar.
William Shakespeare.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

drerio said:


> Actually when I think of someone trying to be something they are not only one image comes to mind
> Barneys Gun - YouTube


If you think it is only about being something that you are not, you are missing the point.


----------



## Ikaika

Tall Average Guy said:


> If you think it is only about being something that you are not, you are missing the point.


Than it must be about genetics and my previous conclusion choosing the right parents.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

drerio said:


> Than it must be about genetics and my previous conclusion choosing the right parents.


You still don't get it. It is about the person you really are. It is not about faking it, or ignoring your feelings and needs to put others over you, or pretending to be something you are not.

It is about figuring out what you are and what you want to be as a person, and striving for that.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Tall Average Guy said:


> *It is about figuring out what you are and what you want to be as a person, and striving for that*.


:iagree:

But a lot of men never really get to know themselves. They are busy trying to please everybody else, and trying to maintain that image everybody sees them as.
So society puts them into a mould and they expect themselves to act that role even though its killing them.
The challenge for them is to survive, so they never excel.


----------



## Ikaika

Tall Average Guy said:


> You still don't get it. It is about the person you really are. It is not about faking it, or ignoring your feelings and needs to put others over you, or pretending to be something you...


In this logic, I guess I'm not alpha. However, I'm happy and confident in who I am and my wife and kids are happy with who I am. But, if it came down to it I would give up my life for my family. 

So I don't have to try so hard at being me, but I do care about other people; I'm part of the human tribe. Assuming I am always number one is arrogance. In my culture that will get you ostracized or beat up. I take care of myself for several reasons. I like the feeling but also heart disease runs in my genes, so it's a matter of moving the bell curve. And, sure no doubt my wife would rather me be fit even at 52 than a beer drinking slob. I consider that icing to the substance of who I am. 

It's fine for you and others, it just does not register for me. Good luck in your quest.


----------



## jaquen

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> But a lot of men never really get to know themselves. They are busy trying to please everybody else, and trying to maintain that image everybody sees them as.
> So society puts them into a mould and they expect themselves to act that role even though its killing them.
> The challenge for them is to survive, so they never excel.


So. Much. Mother****ing. Truth.


----------



## Ikaika

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> But a lot of men never really get to know themselves. They are busy trying to please everybody else, and trying to maintain that image everybody sees them as.
> So society puts them into a mould and they expect themselves to act that role even though its killing them.
> The challenge for them is to survive, so they never excel.


Just so you understand when you have a special needs child. It's not about pleasing others, but it is about sacrifice. This notion of Alpha is too simplistic.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

drerio said:


> In this logic, I guess I'm not alpha. However, I'm happy and confident in who I am and my wife and kids are happy with who I am. But, if it came down to it I would give up my life for my family.


How is this inconsistent with having alpha traits?



> So I don't have to try so hard at being me, but I do care about other people; I'm part of the human tribe. Assuming I am always number one is arrogance. In my culture that will get you ostracized or beat up. I take care of myself for several reasons. I like the feeling but also heart disease runs in my genes, so it's a matter of moving the bell curve. And, sure no doubt my wife would rather me be fit even at 52 than a beer drinking slob. I consider that icing to the substance of who I am.
> 
> It's fine for you and others, it just does not register for me. Good luck in your quest.


Again, how is this inconsistent with being the person you want to be. Being the man that you want to be is what this is about. That does not mean always looking out for yourself or not being part of the human race. In my case, it is about providing a safe and secure environment for my family, raising my children to be happy and healthy, being honest with myself and others, taking care of my happiness and have a loving, fullfilling relationship with my wife. So why do you object to this? what is so wrong with encouraging others to figure out what works for them and move forward with it?

Frankly, it seems like you are too busy to try to understand it and just want to disagree with the term (and perhaps get some nice attaboys from others who want to agree as well). That is your choice and I will leave you to that.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

drerio said:


> Just so you understand when you have a special needs child. It's not about pleasing others, but it is about sacrifice. This notion of Alpha is too simplistic.


They are not exclusive or even inconsistent. Alpha traits are often about sacrifice. To think otherwise is also too simplistic.


----------



## Deejo

drerio said:


> Just so you understand when you have a special needs child. It's not about pleasing others, but it is about sacrifice. This notion of Alpha is too simplistic.


Ok ... so I'll take another shot at it. 

Primarily in the context of TAM, you can think of the term 'Alpha' as medicine.
Don't know if this makes the concept more palatable or more ridiculous ... but I'm rolling with it.

Most often the medicine is prescribed to a man suffering the loss of his marriage, or the discovery that his wife is in the throes of an affair, or that he is in a loveless, sexless, marriage in which he prioritizes the needs of his wife, while she (generally) minimizes or utterly ignores his.

The medication is intended to address a broad spectrum of issues or symptoms.

Self-confidence
Self-control
Self-realization
Emotional Management 
Boundaries
Personal Responsibility
Conflict Resolution
Interpersonal Communication

There are 2 general remedies by prescribing this medication;

The man modifies or reevaluates his behavior to maximize value to himself. He defines himself, rather than letting his partner, or his partners emotional state define him (to his detriment)

As a result, he fosters a more balanced, healthier, and positive relationship with his spouse.

Or ...

He has the tool-set to see exactly how dysfunctional the relationship has become, and the emotional strength to acknowledge that it cannot or will not improve, and he makes the choice to leave.

And of course like many medications, there may be side effects if used incorrectly, or the belief that the medication is little more than snake oil.

Effectiveness depends upon the severity of the patient.

The focus here is not on learning to become a big, mean, selfish, sonofab!tch. Or trying to emulate some archetype that you simply are not.

The focus here is becoming familiar with the concepts with a goal of incorporating some of them in an effort to be a better man, better husband, better father. 

For the man that has a wife that loves him, and is satisfied with his conduct and the outcomes he creates for himself and those he loves, this medication, or the concept of 'Alpha' needn't be prescribed.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> Ok ... so I'll take another shot at it.
> 
> Primarily in the context of TAM, you can think of the term 'Alpha' as medicine.
> Don't know if this makes the concept more palatable or more ridiculous ... but I'm rolling with it.
> 
> Most often the medicine is prescribed to a man suffering the loss of his marriage, or the discovery that his wife is in the throes of an affair, or that he is in a loveless, sexless, marriage in which he prioritizes the needs of his wife, while she (generally) minimizes or utterly ignores his.
> 
> The medication is intended to address a broad spectrum of issues or symptoms.
> 
> Self-confidence
> Self-control
> Self-realization
> Emotional Management
> Boundaries
> Personal Responsibility
> Conflict Resolution
> Interpersonal Communication
> 
> There are 2 general remedies by prescribing this medication;
> 
> The man modifies or reevaluates his behavior to maximize value to himself. He defines himself, rather than letting his partner, or his partners emotional state define him (to his detriment)
> 
> As a result, he fosters a more balanced, healthier, and positive relationship with his spouse.
> 
> Or ...
> 
> He has the tool-set to see exactly how dysfunctional the relationship has become, and the emotional strength to acknowledge that it cannot or will not improve, and he makes the choice to leave.
> 
> And of course like many medications, there may be side effects if used incorrectly, or the belief that the medication is little more than snake oil.
> 
> Effectiveness depends upon the severity of the patient.
> 
> The focus here is not on learning to become a big, mean, selfish, sonofab!tch. Or trying to emulate some archetype that you simply are not.
> 
> The focus here is becoming familiar with the concepts with a goal of incorporating some of them in an effort to be a better man, better husband, better father.
> 
> For the man that has a wife that loves him, and is satisfied with his conduct and the outcomes he creates for himself and those he loves, this medication, or the concept of 'Alpha' needn't be prescribed.


:iagree:and frankly speaking,I don't know if it can be explained much simpler than this!

But I'll give it another shot.

*drerio,*
Picture this with me.

A young man gets married, and decides to rent/ lease an apartment for himself and his new bride.They live happy.
The years begin to fly, he gets a promotion on his job, she gets a job and they start having kids. 
The apartment is too small, and his needs CHANGE.
They decide to UPGRADE to meet their needs and purchase a home through a mortgage in a decent neighbourhood.
Basically what they have done is both respond to his family's need for living space and upgraded their social status.

What the young man and his wife did is consistently added value to their lives by investing in themselves over a period of time.
If they both had rich parents, then they would have started from a different point .They would not have rented an apartment in the first place,and the " challenges " of kids etc would not have been a challenge. 

So is the concept of a young married couple investing in themselves to secure their family's future simplistic?
The same rule applies to the concept of Alpha.
And its not gender specific.


----------



## Ikaika

Deejo said:


> Ok ...
> 
> The medication is intended to address a broad spectrum of issues or symptoms.
> 
> Self-confidence
> Self-control
> Self-realization
> Emotional Management
> Boundaries
> Personal Responsibility
> Conflict Resolution
> Interpersonal Communication


I don't know how this differs froms just being a mature adult. If alpha = mature adult, Ok. I got it. 



Deejo said:


> The man modifies or reevaluates his behavior to maximize value to himself. He defines himself, rather than letting his partner, or his partners emotional state define him (to his detriment)


So I don't disagree with this... however this also seems like good premarital advice. I have said before, be the man you are going to be before you be the man she marries. My assumption is that she is married to you because of something she likes about you. If somehow this requires a re-wiring to become "Alpha", how is this going to benefit the marriage and his stature? Again, I read the alpha mantra... However, I sometimes have read the extreme values of it. Obviously you are not representing it that way. So I just don't I don't get how this differs from just being a responsible adult. 

There also is something one needs to consider. Neurologically we are not some binary creature. We don't exist as one or the other we operate along a spectrum. So I find the trying equate some defined attitudes of Alpha as specified traits to be a bit ingenuous given who we are as a species. We obviously cannot all have ultra Alpha traits in the same way we cannot all have ultra omega traits... most of us fall under the bell shape curve of averages where we have our good traits and bad traits. Hopefully our spouse can appreciate us for the good and understand us for those which we fall short in.


----------



## Ikaika

Tall Average Guy said:


> Frankly, it seems like you are too busy to try to understand it and just want to disagree with the term (and perhaps get some nice attaboys from others who want to agree as well). That is your choice and I will leave you to that.


I can assure I am not looking for any pats on the back... I don't need it.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

drerio said:


> So I don't disagree with this... however this also seems like good premarital advice. I have said before, be the man you are going to be before you be the man she marries. *My assumption is that she is married to you because of something she likes about you. * If somehow this requires a re-wiring to become "Alpha", how is this going to benefit the marriage and his stature? Again, I read the alpha mantra... However, I sometimes have read the extreme values of it. Obviously you are not representing it that way. So I just don't I don't get how this differs from just being a responsible adult.


I don't think it is about re-wiring as much as re-orientating yourself. Yes, ideally a couple should have discussed this and a man should have gotten to this place prior to marriage. Unfortunately, that all to often does not happen. So hopefully, in becoming true to what he wants to be, there are still enough of the characteristics that she fell in love with to keep attraction, as well as her liking some of the new ones. But sometimes, that just does not occur.


----------



## that_girl

Say "no" once in a while and mean it.


----------



## Ikaika

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't think it is about re-wiring as much as *re-orientating yourself*. Yes, ideally a couple should have discussed this and a man should have gotten to this place prior to marriage. Unfortunately, that all to often does not happen. So hopefully, in becoming true to what he wants to be, there are still enough of the characteristics that she fell in love with to keep attraction, as well as her liking some of the new ones. But sometimes, that just does not occur.


Explain, how you do this in a non-neurological way? We have a characteristic about our brains called plasticity and long-term potentials (both are a form of re-wiring)... how do you create a long standing characteristic without re-wiring?


----------



## that_girl

Never ask permission from your wife. She is not your mother and it's creepy...at least for me it is. H now just asks if we have anything planned for "such and such a day" and if not, he says what he's going to do...same as I do with him. Consideration, not permission. He used to ask permission and it shifted things a bit between us. I didn't like it.

I remember once hearing a male friend tell another male friend, "I can't. My wife won't let me."

The eff.

No.


----------



## Ikaika

that_girl said:


> Never ask permission from your wife. She is not your mother and it's creepy...at least for me it is. H now just asks if we have anything planned for "such and such a day" and if not, he says what he's going to do...same as I do with him. *Consideration, not permission*. He used to ask permission and it shifted things a bit between us. I didn't like it.
> 
> I remember once hearing a male friend tell another male friend, "I can't. My wife won't let me."
> 
> The eff.
> 
> No.


Amen... it is about being an adult who is married and will do the right thing (if one has to ask permission it is probably because they shouldn't do it) but still have consideration. Call it alpha, I call it being a responsible adult.


----------



## jaquen

Deejo said:


> Ok ... so I'll take another shot at it.
> 
> Primarily in the context of TAM, you can think of the term 'Alpha' as medicine.
> Don't know if this makes the concept more palatable or more ridiculous ... but I'm rolling with it.
> 
> Most often the medicine is prescribed to a man suffering the loss of his marriage, or the discovery that his wife is in the throes of an affair, or that he is in a loveless, sexless, marriage in which he prioritizes the needs of his wife, while she (generally) minimizes or utterly ignores his.
> 
> The medication is intended to address a broad spectrum of issues or symptoms.
> 
> Self-confidence
> Self-control
> Self-realization
> Emotional Management
> Boundaries
> Personal Responsibility
> Conflict Resolution
> Interpersonal Communication
> 
> There are 2 general remedies by prescribing this medication;
> 
> The man modifies or reevaluates his behavior to maximize value to himself. He defines himself, rather than letting his partner, or his partners emotional state define him (to his detriment)
> 
> As a result, he fosters a more balanced, healthier, and positive relationship with his spouse.
> 
> Or ...
> 
> He has the tool-set to see exactly how dysfunctional the relationship has become, and the emotional strength to acknowledge that it cannot or will not improve, and he makes the choice to leave.
> 
> And of course like many medications, there may be side effects if used incorrectly, or the belief that the medication is little more than snake oil.
> 
> Effectiveness depends upon the severity of the patient.
> 
> The focus here is not on learning to become a big, mean, selfish, sonofab!tch. Or trying to emulate some archetype that you simply are not.
> 
> The focus here is becoming familiar with the concepts with a goal of incorporating some of them in an effort to be a better man, better husband, better father.
> 
> For the man that has a wife that loves him, and is satisfied with his conduct and the outcomes he creates for himself and those he loves, this medication, or the concept of 'Alpha' needn't be prescribed.


I abhor the TAM obsession with overdosing on these absurdly simplified concepts, and even I have to applaud this post. 

Begrudgingly. Very begrudgingly indeed.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Funny how some women here on TAM see themselves as
" The Alpha female" , but are themselves always the first in line to debunk the Alpha male concept.:scratchhead:

Jus sayin...


----------



## that_girl

If you're going to be vague about names, just be Alpha and name names. 

Jus sayin.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

drerio said:


> Explain, how you do this in a non-neurological way? We have a characteristic about our brains called plasticity and long-term potentials (both are a form of re-wiring)... how do you create a long standing characteristic without re-wiring?


Who said it is necessarily long-standing characteristic? Too often it is the result of pushing down true characteristics in an effort to act how they think they are supposed to act. 

Your comments on re-wiring, along with your other posts, suggest you object to turning a person into something that they are not. It is about finding out what you really are and be true to that.


----------



## Ikaika

Listen, I don't have anything wrong with people try to better themselves. If this is what it means to be Alpha, then fine I simply don't have an issue with the general concept it just may be one that I define as being a mature adult. I just have some consternation about extreme values built into it. As with anything, I have read those who comport a reasonable assumption of what they wish to define as so called Alpha traits but have also read representations that would seem to run far to the extreme. So I will leave well enough alone and assume that we are probably discussing the same thing only you wish to place a label on it, while I simply view it as something that does not define me but one that is part of who I need to be for myself and family. I am a no-labels kind of guy


----------



## Ikaika

Tall Average Guy said:


> *Who said it is necessarily long-standing characteristic? Too often it is the result of pushing down true characteristics in an effort to act how they think they are supposed to act*.
> 
> Your comments on re-wiring, along with your other posts, suggest you object to turning a person into something that they are not. It is about finding out what you really are and be true to that.


So this would not seem right... only move toward Alpha long enough to get my "nut" off then I go back to something else? I am confused. I assume you want to change for the better as a matter of lifestyle not like a fad diet. :scratchhead:

I would think if you want to help someone move toward being "Alpha" it would be to permanently remake them to be something better from here on out. Oh well, another fad.


----------



## Caribbean Man

I think that both Halien and Dejoo explained it well in all of their posts.
But like everything else in life,
Your mileage may vary.

A wise thing that I have found in situations like these where doubts arise, is to only accept that which applied directly to you.

A person convinced against his own mind is always of the same opinion still.


----------



## jaquen

As I eluded to earlier in this mammoth thread, the inescapable paradox for me in truly alpha-ing up, as the concept is widely defined, is that the logical conclusion would be that you dump the wife who has kept her boot firmly on your throat, and strike out to either find loads of new vagina with your new chest hair, or get involved with a woman who truly digs the new you.

I see the term "alpha" being thrown around this board constantly as a medicinal offering for men who are in relationships with women who treat them like utter sh*t. None of these men, if they truly became alpha in all it's blazing glory, would continue to give these women the time of day.

So the recommendation that guys find their inner alpha, in an attempt to repair relationships with horrible women who treat them like dirty gum at the bottom of their stilettos, really runs contrary to what a real alpha would do.


----------



## Caribbean Man

jaquen said:


> So the recommendation that guys find their inner alpha, in an attempt to repair relationships with horrible women who treat them like dirty gum at the bottom of their stilettos, really runs contrary to what a real alpha would do.


But like you said earlier in your post the term Alpha is very loosely used. Even the OP misunderstood the term and what it meant.
The term simply means working on yourself to achieve particular goals.
Its not about demanding respect from your wife or anybody.

Its about respecting yourself enough to do something about your either your dreams or your short comings.

I lift weights not because I plan to enter competitive bodybuilding or because I want people to respect me.
I do it because I love the idea that I can actually discipline myself enough to change my lifestyle, follow a strict diet & workout plan, go to the gym and push my body to the limits and see the rewards.I like what I see when I look in the mirror.
People tell me they like how I look, but that is secondary.
I LIKE what I have done.
Its the very same reason I started my own business years ago.
Its the very same reason I decided to get married.
Its the very same reason I never dropped out of school.

I like being in control of everything that makes me ,
Me.
Being that way makes me confident in any environment.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

drerio said:


> So this would not seem right... only move toward Alpha long enough to get my "nut" off then I go back to something else? I am confused. I assume you want to change for the better as a matter of lifestyle not like a fad diet. :scratchhead:
> 
> I would think if you want to help someone move toward being "Alpha" it would be to permanently remake them to be something better from here on out. Oh well, another fad.


You clearly don't want to agree with it, whether intentionally or otherwise, so I will leave you to it.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Trenton said:


> It is never a lack of understanding of the woman that is the question for the men you describe, it is always a lack of understanding of their self.


While I question if these men understand women, I think you absolutely nail it that they do not understand their self.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Tall Average Guy said:


> While I question if these men understand women, *I think you absolutely nail it that they do not understand their self.*


:iagree:
There is where it all starts.
One understanding himself, before he even attempts to please or understand anybody else.


----------



## jaquen

Caribbean Man said:


> But like you said earlier in your post the term Alpha is very loosely used. Even the OP misunderstood the term and what it meant.
> The term simply means working on yourself to achieve particular goals.
> Its not about demanding respect from your wife or anybody.
> 
> Its about respecting yourself enough to do something about your either your dreams or your short comings.
> 
> I lift weights not because I plan to enter competitive bodybuilding or because I want people to respect me.
> I do it because I love the idea that I can actually discipline myself enough to change my lifestyle, follow a strict diet & workout plan, go to the gym and push my body to the limits and see the rewards.I like what I see when I look in the mirror.
> People tell me they like how I look, but that is secondary.
> I LIKE what I have done.
> Its the very same reason I started my own business years ago.
> Its the very same reason I decided to get married.
> Its the very same reason I never dropped out of school.
> 
> I like being in control of everything that makes me ,
> Me.
> Being that way makes me confident in any environment.



Yes, but this is not the context that alpha-medicine is applied to under the majority of circumstances on TAM.

The "man up" concept is almost exclusively applied to situations on this board where some weak willed man is being run over by a woman who isn't putting out, and is treating him like steamed cow dung. There are near infinite amounts of posts egging him on to get in touch with his alpha before some other mysterious alpha male comes along and "steals" his woman. It's often used to talk about a man trying to spark his woman into respecting him, and essentially knowing her place.

That's the context I'm dealing with. And under that context, no, it doesn't make sense to push a man to alpha for the sake of his marriage to said women, because if he goes to the alpha conclusion he would resent the time spent with her, and drop her ass in two seconds flat.


----------



## AFEH

jaquen said:


> Yes, but this is not the context that alpha-medicine is applied to under the majority of circumstances on TAM.
> 
> The "man up" concept is almost exclusively applied to situations on this board where some weak willed man is being run over by a woman who isn't putting out, and is treating him like steamed cow dung. There are near infinite amounts of posts egging him on to get in touch with his alpha before some other mysterious alpha male comes along and "steals" his woman. It's often used to talk about a man trying to spark his woman into respecting him, and essentially knowing her place.
> 
> That's the context I'm dealing with. And under that context, no, it doesn't make sense to push a man to alpha for the sake of his marriage to said women, because if he goes to the alpha conclusion he would resent the time spent with her, and drop her ass in two seconds flat.


I'm sure there are others like me waiting to hear what your particular solution is.


So what is it?


----------



## jaquen

AFEH said:


> I'm sure there are others like me waiting to hear what your particular solution is.
> 
> 
> So what is it?


I offered my solution pages ago.

Man up and do a search.


----------



## Ikaika

Tall Average Guy said:


> You clearly *don't want to agree with it*, whether intentionally or otherwise, so I will leave you to it.





drerio said:


> Listen, I don't have anything wrong with people try to better themselves. If this is what it means to be Alpha, then fine I simply don't have an issue with the general concept it just may be one that I *define as being a mature adult*. I just have some consternation about extreme values built into it. As with anything, *I have read those who comport a reasonable assumption of what they wish to define as so called Alpha traits but have also read representations that would seem to run far to the extreme*. So I will leave well enough alone and assume that we are probably discussing the same thing only you wish to place a label on it, while I simply view it as something that does not define me but one that is part of who I need to be for myself and family. *I am a no-labels kind of guy*


----------



## AFEH

jaquen said:


> I offered my solution pages ago.
> 
> Man up and do a search.


That’s a cop out.



Come on what’s your equivalent of NMMNG, MMSL and Manning Up?

You’re so vociferously against it all surely you must have something very much better. 

Because of your determined and constant criticism I’m expecting an order of magnitude change in improvement in what is generally proposed here and even some totally new paradigm/concept that men with problems in their marriage can adopt.


Come on lets see if you can move these things forward to better places and help make other men’s lives a better place to be like other men have before you.


Come on, up the standards here. So what have you got?


----------



## jaquen

AFEH said:


> Come on, up the standards here. So what have you got?


Like I told you before, I've commented plenty in this thread regarding my view on the matter. You give that much of a damn, then do a search. 

Don't like what you read? I'll find a way to live with it. Simple, clean, easy.


----------



## AFEH

jaquen said:


> Like I told you before, I've commented plenty in this thread regarding my view on the matter. You give that much of a damn, then do a search.
> 
> Don't like what you read? I'll find a way to live with it. Simple, clean, easy.


Well I'm disappointed. I thought you were going to help the men up their game. You seemed to have that sort of potential rather than just another naysayer.


People who are unafraid to buck the trend are the ones who can potentially make the greatest improvements. But it takes more than negativity to do so. It takes vision, leadership, inspiration, motivation amongst other things.


----------



## Cre8ify

Agreed with AFEH. Your posts are provocative and you see things we don't all see. There is often wisdom is going cross culture and against the grain. Tie it up so people have something they can hold onto. 

We need more than fate. We have what fate dealt us. We need to pursue change.


----------



## jaquen

I certainly do not disagree with either of you. 

My point wasn't to be another "naysayer". As I have mentioned now, across two posts, my ideas about this topic have been thoroughly covered, both in this thread, and plenty others.

Here are samples of how I view all of this:

Be a man. I can't wrap my mind around being a "servant" to a woman. I treat my wife well, because she's my equal, soulmate, and the love of my life. It sounds unfathomable to me that I'd ever purposefully decide to NOT do something because I want to appear "Alpha" to my woman. Give me a ****ing break.

Just be a man. Treat your woman well, and with respect, but don't sacrifice your own voice, and self respect, for her. 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/59611-becoming-alpha-4.html#post1181867


Being "Alpha" just seems to me to be about self respect. It doesn't have jack to do with how nice, or not, you are to a woman. It's about being who the hell you are, authentically, and owning the hell out of that. And if a woman doesn't want, crave, and desire the real, authentic you, than NEXT her behind and find a woman who does.

No, putting up with less sex results in less sex. There are lots of guys, including plenty here on TAM, who are getting "less sex" without any of the overt "Beta" traits that people villainize around here.

If a man is bartering, begging, and groveling, and changing his essential nature, all for sex with the woman who vowed to have sex with him, he's lost the war. How "Alpha" is it to pretend to be someone you're not all in an attempt to wet your wife's panties? Under those conditions you are STILL doing it for her, so in this whole battle she "wins" anyway.

Some men are genuinely nice guys. They're not overly nice, or doormats, because women have made them so; that is who they are naturally. If they're with a woman who can't LOVE that, crave that, and desire that, then he needs to collect his balls and leave. 

I think this whole alpha vs beta debate comes down to a ton of men and women who are essentially incompatible.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/59611-becoming-alpha-4.html#post1181904


I find the categorization to be crap. It's leaned on far too heavily, it's far to broad, and it lends itself far too well to misinterpretation. Much of the "alpha" talk I've read on TAM, and encountered in real life, is a load of crap. Many men are out here working hard to be something they are not, and never will, all in an attempt to land women they are more often than not simply incompatible with. They are trading one prison for another.

Scrap the labels. Work on being true to self, always. Whatever you are authentically, whoever that man is, will be what drives you forward. Nothing can stop a man who truly sees himself as he really is, as he is suppose to be. When you establish a strong sense of self, along with that comes pride, and self respect. And a man who has self respect, regardless of his temperament, how "alpha", "beta", "omegaphisigmadelta" he is, will always work to maintain situations where that respect is honored.

Getting back your balls isn't about reading the latest hot self help book. It isn't about working yourself over in order to get more V from a cold fish wife. And it damn sure should never be about becoming some caricature of what you assume a man should be like. 

Men in this world face incredible pressure to conform to a very limited spectrum of options regarding what a man "should" be. Buck the trend and find a way to dig deep, and honestly, to allow yourself permission, and the freedom, to live authentically. Be introspective, be BRAVE, and be honest. And own you.

And once a person walks in their authentic self, and loves the truth of who that man is, they will protect it fiercely and tenaciously.


----------



## Gangland

I'm going to use myself as an anecdote for this one...

I was a very, very nice guy, I was friendzoned, I was told "I love you but I'm not in love with you", I did everything the girl wanted, I gave her whatever she asked. In essence a pushover.

Now... You could've prescribed me a million alpha things, do this, don't talk as much, be able to walk away, be more confident, say this, etc.

and I heard all that, and all that is "adding the alpha."

and I did all that, and for the most part it worked!

however. The change didn't really stick. I'd find myself going back and being a pushover again. In other words.. I wasnt' really alpha I was just acting that way.

Then it clicked. because you see.. the things you do that are alpha are not what make you alpha... rather they are a by product of the mindset of someone who is alpha.

It starts to make sense that you wouldn't be as affected by your womans every whim because, well you're alpha. you're worth it too. 

It starts to make sense that you make decisions when asked because, well, what you want is worth it too. and you're the leader.

It starts to make sense you should work out because, your body is the best it can be when you do.

It's starts to make sense to start a business because you'd be damned if your working for someone elses pocket lines.

and so on and so forth.

The behaviors begin to happen naturally as a result of this changed mindset. to the point you don't even really think that hard about it anymore.


----------



## Saki

jaquen said:


> That's the context I'm dealing with. And under that context, no, it doesn't make sense to push a man to alpha for the sake of his marriage to said women, because if he goes to the alpha conclusion he would resent the time spent with her, and drop her ass in two seconds flat.


In the context of what you've written here, I would say that the motivation behind "manning up" is critical.

To "man up" for your marriage or your wife is a timebomb. It ain't gonna work.

To "man up" for yourself, to make yourself happier, to acheive inner peace, to push yourself to live up to your potential, that's great advice, at least to me.

And hey, in the process of manning up for yourself, your wife might start getting her panties wet. And if she dosen't, maybe you'll have enough self confidence to go out and find some broad with whom you share mutual sexual attraction.


----------



## Lyris

jaquen said:


> As I eluded to earlier in this mammoth thread, the inescapable paradox for me in truly alpha-ing up, as the concept is widely defined, is that the logical conclusion would be that you dump the wife who has kept her boot firmly on your throat, and strike out to either find loads of new vagina with your new chest hair, or get involved with a woman who truly digs the new you.
> 
> I see the term "alpha" being thrown around this board constantly as a medicinal offering for men who are in relationships with women who treat them like utter sh*t. None of these men, if they truly became alpha in all it's blazing glory, would continue to give these women the time of day.
> 
> So the recommendation that guys find their inner alpha, in an attempt to repair relationships with horrible women who treat them like dirty gum at the bottom of their stilettos, really runs contrary to what a real alpha would do.


Yeah, but they might get a hand job out of it. Maybe.


----------



## Caribbean Man

I cannot understand how any self respecting man could tolerate being married to a woman who might " reward him with a hand job maybe ."

I cannot understand how any self respecting man could tolerate being married to a woman who treats him like " dirty gum " beneath her stilettos.
In cases like that , manning up or Alpha cannot and does not apply.
Any woman who treats her husband like that needs to be paid in full with a reality cheque, meaning divorce , full stop.
Manning up , collecting your balls, becoming more Alpha or whatever label or term assigned to it has nothing to do with getting your wife's panties wet or getting more sex.
In my marriage, sex is non negotiable, she wants sex , I want sex , so we both have sex. It's like food and shelter in terms of our hierarchy of needs.
I did now vow to be faithful to my wife so that she could decide when she would "allow "me to have sex. She did that before marriage and that was her prerogative .
Sex is a peripheral issue vis the Alpha , man up concept IMO.
What is Alpha or man up to me is me taking responsibility for my life and relationships , marriage , business and social ,taking the necessary actions to produce the desired results. I leave nothing up to chance, and will do what it takes to get the results I want.
When we were just married , one of the biggest problems encountered was me starting up a business.
It was my dream, but not her ideal. She preferred me to have a 
"stable job."
My wife initially opposed it bitterly. I started it anyway. 
Today, when she looks back , and remember the fights we had,she smiles. She followed reluctantly, but deep down inside she knew I was right. She doesn't even know why she opposed.
Fear. She was afraid.
But my mantra has always been,
" real men are not afraid..", they see the challenges and devise ways to overcome it. 
I stuck to my guns , and today we have a very comfortable life.
She now has her own revenue stream, a spin off from the business.

That is what I call Alpha traits.
Doing what it takes to get the desired result,and convincing her to trust in my leadership.
She had other options, and still have her options, but she chooses to stay. 
Next year we are building our " dream home." I remember the first time I brought up the idea to her,and told her everything was ok 
( financially ), she got up off the bed, got a pencil and paper and started working on " her design" of our house.
That's why I love her.....


----------



## AFEH

jaquen said:


> I certainly do not disagree with either of you.
> 
> My point wasn't to be another "naysayer". As I have mentioned now, across two posts, my ideas about this topic have been thoroughly covered, both in this thread, and plenty others.
> 
> Here are samples of how I view all of this:
> 
> Be a man. I can't wrap my mind around being a "servant" to a woman. I treat my wife well, because she's my equal, soulmate, and the love of my life. It sounds unfathomable to me that I'd ever purposefully decide to NOT do something because I want to appear "Alpha" to my woman. Give me a ****ing break.
> 
> Just be a man. Treat your woman well, and with respect, but don't sacrifice your own voice, and self respect, for her.
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/59611-becoming-alpha-4.html#post1181867
> 
> 
> Being "Alpha" just seems to me to be about self respect. It doesn't have jack to do with how nice, or not, you are to a woman. It's about being who the hell you are, authentically, and owning the hell out of that. And if a woman doesn't want, crave, and desire the real, authentic you, than NEXT her behind and find a woman who does.
> 
> No, putting up with less sex results in less sex. There are lots of guys, including plenty here on TAM, who are getting "less sex" without any of the overt "Beta" traits that people villainize around here.
> 
> If a man is bartering, begging, and groveling, and changing his essential nature, all for sex with the woman who vowed to have sex with him, he's lost the war. How "Alpha" is it to pretend to be someone you're not all in an attempt to wet your wife's panties? Under those conditions you are STILL doing it for her, so in this whole battle she "wins" anyway.
> 
> Some men are genuinely nice guys. They're not overly nice, or doormats, because women have made them so; that is who they are naturally. If they're with a woman who can't LOVE that, crave that, and desire that, then he needs to collect his balls and leave.
> 
> I think this whole alpha vs beta debate comes down to a ton of men and women who are essentially incompatible.
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/59611-becoming-alpha-4.html#post1181904
> 
> 
> I find the categorization to be crap. It's leaned on far too heavily, it's far to broad, and it lends itself far too well to misinterpretation. Much of the "alpha" talk I've read on TAM, and encountered in real life, is a load of crap. Many men are out here working hard to be something they are not, and never will, all in an attempt to land women they are more often than not simply incompatible with. They are trading one prison for another.
> 
> Scrap the labels. Work on being true to self, always. Whatever you are authentically, whoever that man is, will be what drives you forward. Nothing can stop a man who truly sees himself as he really is, as he is suppose to be. When you establish a strong sense of self, along with that comes pride, and self respect. And a man who has self respect, regardless of his temperament, how "alpha", "beta", "omegaphisigmadelta" he is, will always work to maintain situations where that respect is honored.
> 
> Getting back your balls isn't about reading the latest hot self help book. It isn't about working yourself over in order to get more V from a cold fish wife. And it damn sure should never be about becoming some caricature of what you assume a man should be like.
> 
> Men in this world face incredible pressure to conform to a very limited spectrum of options regarding what a man "should" be. Buck the trend and find a way to dig deep, and honestly, to allow yourself permission, and the freedom, to live authentically. Be introspective, be BRAVE, and be honest. And own you.
> 
> And once a person walks in their authentic self, and loves the truth of who that man is, they will protect it fiercely and tenaciously.


Jaquen, you are missing one heck of a lot.


For example your call to “be a man”. Guess what? Some men haven’t a clue how to be a Man such has been their feminisation. The only time such a man “wakes up” is when he’s in serious deep shet and a lot of pain. He starts on his journey to become a Man the very minute he recognises it is he, himself who got him into the shet in first place and takes total responsibility for it.

But how does he become the Man he wants to be? How does he do that Jaquen? Say a man of 25 or a man of 43, how does he do that?

Of course he reads books, looks for a coach or mentor who can help him on his journey to become a man. Books like NMMNG, N.U.T.s and many others.


Of course it’s his “pain” that wakes him up. Eventually his emotions become so intense, maybe his sadness and despondency so profound that they actually get through to his consciousness such that he finally wakes up to it all. That “I wont take this shet anymore”. Yes the masculinity inside that man has been screaming at him for a while, sometimes maybe years and finally gets through such that the man wants to become a Man. It’s when the man finally gets himself some masculine boundaries and a lot of that is to do with intolerance.



Then of course there’s the old adage that marriage is an institution. Have you really thought about what that means? Husbands (and wives) do indeed become institutionalised within their marriage. You see it here often “Is this abuse?” is a question often asked. These institutionalised spouses just don’t know what is abusive and what isn’t.

Being institutionalised means a person is different within their marriage to what they were before they got married. It can be like a slow erosion of who they were. And more than likely a slow erosion of their boundaries. If for example a man enters his marriage as a Man, years later he may have let himself become a mouse and he will need help to get back his masculinity, to become the Man he was.


For me you are still exceedingly far off base. I could go into detail, for example your _“I think this whole alpha vs. beta debate comes down to a ton of men and women who are essentially incompatible”_ that’s more or less one of the very first things a very respected poster here articulates. But you know what? It takes a while for the husband to wake up to his incompatibility with his wife. And the more he loves her, the longer it will take him wake up to it let alone do anything about it.




You don’t offer anything new Jaquen. You would know that if you weren’t so exceedingly negative and determined to knock down pillars and had bothered to spend time understanding what actually goes on here.


----------



## In Absentia

so, we have to change who we are in order to save the marriage? I don't like being alpha. It's not me. I bet a lot of men trying to salvage their marriage by turning into something they are not (even here) they hate it. Why should I change? I can become better as a man, for myself, but why alpha? If my wife doesn't like me the way I am, then she made a mistake marrying me. If she is not happy, she can f*** off.


----------



## AFEH

In Absentia said:


> so, we have to change who we are in order to save the marriage? I don't like being alpha. It's not me. I bet a lot of men trying to salvage their marriage by turning into something they are not (even here) they hate it. Why should I change? I can become better as a man, for myself, but why alpha? If my wife doesn't like me the way I am, then she made a mistake marrying me. *If she is not happy, she can f*** off.*


Believe me with that sort of attitude she’s very much more than likely to leave you. In fact it’s almost 100% guaranteed that she will.


If she does leave then I guess you may even come here and start up your own thread.


On the other hand, a woman and marriage that isn’t worth trying to save isn’t worth having so you’ll both be better off if in fact she leaves you.


Fate can be exceedingly cruel to those that tempt it.


PS: With the bolded statement, don't you think that makes you the classically Alpha Jerk?


----------



## In Absentia

AFEH said:


> Believe me with that sort of attitude she’s very much more than likely to leave you. In fact it’s almost 100% guaranteed that she will.
> 
> 
> If she does leave then I guess you may even come here and start up your own thread.
> 
> 
> On the other hand, a woman and marriage that isn’t worth trying to save isn’t worth having so you’ll both be better off if in fact she leaves you.
> 
> 
> Fate can be exceedingly cruel to those that tempt it.
> 
> 
> PS: With the bolded statement, don't you think that makes you the classically Alpha Jerk?


She can leave me, if she wants to. I'm not an alpha jerk and I'm not alpha... I'm just a man with principles. If she starts complaining I'm too beta, tough! This is what I am. And I'm pretty beta. I have my quality and if she wants an alpha, then she can have it. There are plenty of women out there who appreciate a man like me. Is this an alpha trait? Maybe. But it's only 10% of who I am. BTW, my wife is not that stupid. She knows this. After over 20 years of marriage, she can go if she's unhappy. I won't go until the kids have grown up, because I will never ever have my kids raised by another man. Ever. Life is too short to play games. To become someone you are not. To dislike yourself just to please your wife. Sorry, I won't do it. I'm prepared to talk and compromise, but I will never change who I am, the core of my person.

Anyway, my wife has no intention to leave me... maybe the other way 'round. end/rant


----------



## AFEH

In Absentia said:


> She can leave me, if she wants to. I'm not an alpha jerk and I'm not alpha... I'm just a man with principles. If she starts complaining I'm too beta, tough! This is what I am. And I'm pretty beta. I have my quality and if she wants an alpha, then she can have it. There are plenty of women out there who appreciate a man like me. Is this an alpha trait? Maybe. But it's only 10% of who I am. BTW, my wife is not that stupid. She knows this. After over 20 years of marriage, she can go if she's unhappy. I won't go until the kids have grown up, because I will never ever have my kids raised by another man. Ever. Life is too short to play games. To become someone you are not. To dislike yourself just to please your wife. Sorry, I won't do it. I'm prepared to talk and compromise, but I will never change who I am, the core of my person.
> 
> Anyway, my wife has no intention to leave me... maybe the other way 'round. end/rant


It's about liking yourself. Not disliking yourself. You actually sound like one of the latter already.

It's not about becoming someone you're not. It is about becoming the Man you were meant to be. It's called individuation.

What sort of marriage must you have with a wife who knows she must walk if she doesn't like something about you?

That she is a woman who knows no matter how she feels, she has a husband who will not work on himself to improve his marriage.

Your wife, given your description of yourself must feel exceedingly unloved.


And by the sound of it you too feel unloved.


And yet you wont do anything to change it all.


At least there's one thing with your "way", your particular philosophy of life. In that you can guarantee what the next decade at least is going to look like and that's exactly what you've got today. Two people who don't love each other. Your kids are going to see that as well and recreate your marriage when they marry. So they too will go through life unloved by their spouse.


But take it from me. Your next ten years is not guaranteed. Believe me if you don't change you'll have change forced on you anyway. And for the stubborn it is a change of volcanic magnitude instead of evolutionary change.


----------



## In Absentia

AFEH said:


> It's about liking yourself. Not disliking yourself. You actually sound like one of the latter already.
> 
> It's not about becoming someone you're not. It is about becoming the Man you were meant to be. It's called individuation.
> 
> What sort of marriage must you have with a wife who knows she must walk if she doesn't like something about you?
> 
> That she is a woman who knows no matter how she feels, she has a husband who will not work on himself to improve his marriage.
> 
> Your wife, given your description of yourself must feel exceedingly unloved.
> 
> 
> And by the sound of it you too feel unloved.
> 
> 
> And yet you wont do anything to change it all.
> 
> 
> At least there's one thing with your "way", your particular philosophy of life. In that you can guarantee what the next decade at least is going to look like and that's exactly what you've got today. Two people who don't love each other. Your kids are going to see that as well and recreate your marriage when they marry. So they too will go through life unloved by their spouse.
> 
> 
> But take it from me. Your next ten years is not guaranteed. Believe me if you don't change you'll have change forced on you anyway. And for the stubborn it is a change of volcanic magnitude instead of evolutionary change.


nah, it's completely the opposite. I like myself very much and I don't intend to change. My wife married me for what I am and if she thinks she doesn't like me anymore, we can talk. I'm prepared to change my behaviour to a certain extent, but not essentially who I am. Remember: she married me like this. It's her problem if, all of a sudden, she changes her mind. She can walk, I won't keep her here. I would never change her and I expect her not to demand a radical change from me. Obviously we are talking about personalities, not behaviour. I can change my behaviour, not who I am.


----------



## AFEH

In Absentia said:


> nah, it's completely the opposite. I like myself very much and I don't intend to change. My wife married me for what I am and if she thinks she doesn't like me anymore, we can talk. I'm prepared to change my behaviour to a certain extent, but not essentially who I am. Remember: she married me like this. It's her problem if, all of a sudden, she changes her mind. She can walk, I won't keep her here. I would never change her and I expect her not to demand a radical change from me. Obviously we are talking about personalities, not behaviour. I can change my behaviour, not who I am.


But where do you think your behaviour comes from? Do you know?


Our behaviour is the external representation of our core values, beliefs and rules. And it’s these that are the source, the very font of our external behaviour. For example if your integrity is of utmost importance to you, a core value that you fundamentally believe in then you will not tell a lie. Not lying is the external representation of your core, innermost and non negotiable value of and belief in integrity.


If you change your behaviour without changing your core values, beliefs and rules then that would be seriously misrepresenting your self. It would be fake, a front. You’d not only be betraying yourself and those around you, the changes themselves will be short lived. Simply because you don’t believe in them or value them.


It happens. Over time a man can development different personas (or fronts) dependent upon his situation. It’s generally this that leads to an MLC in that his external behaviour has evolved to get out of touch with his inner most values, beliefs and rules.


Long term behavioural change is effected by changing our core values, our fundamental beliefs and the rules we live by. And believe me by changing those things we are indeed changing who we are at our very core. But these things are mostly evolutionary changes although sometimes it pays to be absolutely radical about our changes.




You will evolve through your life. That’s guaranteed. What we talk about here is being the leader of your own change so the change is positive. Otherwise you will have change thrust upon you, because change happens. That’s guaranteed.


----------



## In Absentia

AFEH said:


> But where do you think your behaviour comes from? Do you know?
> 
> 
> Our behaviour is the external representation of our core values, beliefs and rules. And it’s these that are the source, the very font of our external behaviour. For example if your integrity is of utmost importance to you, a core value that you fundamentally believe in then you will not tell a lie. Not lying is the external representation of your core, innermost and non negotiable value of and belief in integrity.
> 
> 
> If you change your behaviour without changing your core values, beliefs and rules then that would be seriously misrepresenting your self. It would be fake, a front. You’d not only be betraying yourself and those around you, the changes themselves will be short lived. Simply because you don’t believe in them or value them.
> 
> 
> It happens. Over time a man can development different personas (or fronts) dependent upon his situation. It’s generally this that leads to an MLC in that his external behaviour has evolved to get out of touch with his inner most values, beliefs and rules.
> 
> 
> Long term behavioural change is effected by changing our core values, our fundamental beliefs and the rules we live by. And believe me by changing those things we are indeed changing who we are at our very core. But these things are mostly evolutionary changes although sometimes it pays to be absolutely radical about our changes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You will evolve through your life. That’s guaranteed. What we talk about here is being the leader of your own change so the change is positive. Otherwise you will have change thrust upon you, because change happens. That’s guaranteed.



Being in a relationship or marriage or whatever implies changing your behaviour to a certain extent. It's a compromise. Every relationship is a compromise. I can change a few things, but I also have my core values which I'll never change. The alpha concept implies a radical change, becoming what you are not. I'm not prepared to do that. Maybe I see marriage from a different point of view. I'm not prepared to radically change to keep my marriage alive. I don't need to better myself, because I'm already a pretty good man. People who become alpha do it from a weak standpoint. They NEED changing to keep their marriage. I don't. I know I'm a good man. If, one day, my wife stops appreciating me for what I am, she can go.

This alpha thing is BS because you don't need it if you are a decent man in the first place, you are proud of what you are and are self-confident. Weak people become alpha because they don't believe in themselves. They have no pride. And very often doesn't solve anything, because they are not proud men in the first place.


----------



## AFEH

In Absentia said:


> Being in a relationship or marriage or whatever implies changing your behaviour to a certain extent. It's a compromise. Every relationship is a compromise. I can change a few things, but I also have my core values which I'll never change. The alpha concept implies a radical change, becoming what you are not. I'm not prepared to do that. Maybe I see marriage from a different point of view. I'm not prepared to radically change to keep my marriage alive. I don't need to better myself, because I'm already a pretty good man. People who become alpha do it from a weak standpoint. *They NEED changing to keep their marriage.* I don't. I know I'm a good man. If, one day, my wife stops appreciating me for what I am, she can go.
> 
> This alpha thing is BS because you don't need it if you are a decent man in the first place, you are proud of what you are and are self-confident. Weak people become alpha because they don't believe in themselves. They have no pride. And very often doesn't solve anything, because they are not proud men in the first place.


You still haven’t got it. And probably for the same reasons as some others. In that you are such a negative naysayer.

For example your *“They need changing to keep their marriage”*.

If you had a positive, optimistic outlook on these things you would know just how absolutely and utterly ridiculous that statement of yours is within the context of what goes on here.


But for some people, people like you, you somehow get your kicks out of trying to bring something down as opposed to helping people out.


But you seem blind, absolutely blinded by your prejudices to what actually goes on here. Prejudices are typically expressed from our inner most ego. Our inner most core values and beliefs. And those very prejudices can blind a person to the reality of what actually goes on.


A read of Awareness: The Perils and Opportunities of Reality: Anthony De Mello, J. Francis Stroud: 9780385249379: Amazon.com: Books might wake you up. But I don’t think you are ready for it as yet so I doubt it very much.


----------



## jaquen

AFEH said:


> For me you are still exceedingly far off base.


And that's your prerogative. 




AFEH said:


> You don’t offer anything new Jaquen. You would know that if you weren’t so exceedingly negative and determined to knock down pillars and had bothered to spend time understanding what actually goes on here.


Dead God you sound personally affronted. Are you upset that I don't buy into your latest little fad books and self help mantra? So what? You do, and that's all that matters. I do find merit in some of the self-help book concepts offered on TAM, particularly the idea of manning up, but some of it smells like absolute crap to me, and even the better points are often very poorly executed and misunderstood.

I am expressing a POV, a POV that has helped real men in my life breath a little easier, find a stronger way to connect to their authentic selves, and make decisions for their betterment. A perspective that has helped me carve out a pretty incredible marriage, and allowed me to recover from some of my own handicaps and damage that I faced growing up as boy, and then a man, in this society. That has permitted me to be not just a generic man, but my OWN man. It's worked for me, and it's worked for others. There were never claims of it being "new", nor have I ever suggested that my way was the only way. 

Different philosophies, different perspectives. I can live with that. But can you?


----------



## In Absentia

AFEH said:


> If you had a positive, optimistic outlook on these things you would know just how absolutely and utterly ridiculous that statement of yours is within the context of what goes on here.


I have a very positive and optimistic outlook. I just don't like deceiving people by telling them to become what they are not to save what is already unsalvageable if they have to become "alpha" to keep their marriage on track. That is ridiculous.


----------



## jaquen

In Absentia said:


> I have a very positive and optimistic outlook. I just don't like deceiving people by telling them to become what they are not to save what is already unsalvageable if they have to become "alpha" to keep their marriage on track. That is ridiculous.


It is ridiculous.

And disingenuous. The concept presumes that every man has an "alpha" living on the inside of him, that is waiting to be discovered.

But what of the man who takes an honest, introspective look inside and doesn't see too much alpha in there? What of the man who is genuinely, by nature and design, a sweet, kind, nice guy who is open to compromise, isn't particularly traditionally macho, doesn't have any desire to lord over his wife, or even be the unchallenged leader? This covers a lot of men. This has always covered a lot of men. Yes western men in modernity have become more feminized, but it is a huge historical inaccuracy to pretend that prior to the advent of modern Western civilization all men were chest thumping alphas.

There are no "alphas" without "betas", or "deltas", or whatever narrow, stereotypical label you want to apply. Just as there are no kings without subjects, or the rich without the poor. 

You can only work on building off your authentic core. Make the changes that aide you in being your best and true self, not adhering to somebody else's concept of what a man "must" be.


----------



## In Absentia

jaquen said:


> It is ridiculous.
> 
> And disingenuous. The concept presumes that every man has an "alpha" living on the inside of him, that is waiting to be discovered.
> 
> But what of the man who takes an honest, introspective look inside and doesn't see too much alpha in there? What of the man who is genuinely, by nature and design, a sweet, kind, nice guy who is open to compromise, isn't particularly traditionally macho, doesn't have any desire to lord over his wife, or even be the unchallenged leader? This covers a lot of men. This has always covered a lot of men. Yes western men in modernity have become more feminized, but it is a huge historical inaccuracy to pretend that prior to the advent of modern Western civilization all men were chest thumping alphas.
> 
> There are no "alphas" without "betas", or "deltas", or whatever narrow, stereotypical label you want to apply. Just as there are no kings without subjects, or the rich without the poor.
> 
> You can only work on building off your authentic core. Make the changes that aide you in being your best and true self, not adhering to somebody else's concept of what a man "must" be.



I couldn't have said it better.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *In Absentia said*: I like myself very much and I don't intend to change. My wife married me for what I am and if she thinks she doesn't like me anymore, we can talk. I'm prepared to change my behaviour to a certain extent, but not essentially who I am. Remember: she married me like this. It's her problem if, all of a sudden, she changes her mind. She can walk, I won't keep her here. I would never change her and I expect her not to demand a radical change from me. Obviously we are talking about personalities, not behaviour. I can change my behaviour, not who I am.



In Absentia...just saying, your way of expressing yourself...your attitude is alot like my husbands.... I like it.







He could never rise to the Alpha mantra either...no way in hell could he be like some of these men on here... Jaquen & AFEH comes to mind (these 2 are born Alpha's - I can just tell... and so is CM)........ 

He knows that is not him, nor could it ever be...(He is like STONEWALL, Arbitrator and Romantic Guy - his TAM twins....all Beta boys )....(and I adore those posters)..... he genuinely likes who he is and everyone else can go suck donkey balls. 

You sound "Alpha enough" to me. And if you are a GOOD man, and she leaves you for someone else... so be it. I know if I dared do that...just cause I'd like him to raise the bar in the bedroom some (only complaint with the man -at times)... It'd be the biggest damn grueling mistake of my lifetime. 

I'm not a stupid woman.... Life is beautiful. 

I loved what Jaquen said here ....


> *Jaquen said:* Some men are genuinely nice guys. They're not overly nice, or doormats, because women have made them so; that is who they are naturally. If they're with a woman who can't LOVE that, crave that, and desire that, then he needs to collect his balls and leave.


 Truth.


----------



## AFEH

jaquen said:


> And that's your prerogative.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dead God you sound personally affronted. Are you upset that I don't buy into your latest little fad books and self help mantra? So what? You do, and that's all that matters. I do find merit in some of the self-help book concepts offered on TAM, particularly the idea of manning up, but some of it smells like absolute crap to me, and even the better points are often very poorly executed and misunderstood.
> 
> I am expressing a POV, a POV that has helped real men in my life breath a little easier, find a stronger way to connect to their authentic selves, and make decisions for their betterment. A perspective that has helped me carve out a pretty incredible marriage, and allowed me to recover from some of my own handicaps and damage that I faced growing up as boy, and then a man, in this society. That has permitted me to be not just a generic man, but my OWN man. It's worked for me, and it's worked for others. There were never claims of it being "new", nor have I ever suggested that my way was the only way.
> 
> Different philosophies, different perspectives. I can live with that. But can you?


Isn’t it strange? You dish out the criticism willy-nilly. Yet you can’t take it when you get criticised. You see when you put yourself out there and up there, you are of course opening yourself to criticism.

And along come guys like you who do indeed criticise what’s gone before. Like I said, sometimes the status quo does need rocking, disturbing, upsetting in order for progress to be made. But when you’re challenged you’re seen to be “empty”.

You have nothing new to offer. As I said, it is disappointing. All have are your prejudices and criticisms. That’s it.

I did expect better.


----------



## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> In Absentia...just saying, your way of expressing yourself...your attitude is alot like my husbands.... I like it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He could never rise to the Alpha mantra either...no way in hell could he be like some of these men on here... Jaquen & AFEH comes to mind (these 2 are born Alpha's - I can just tell... and so is CM)........
> 
> He knows that is not him, nor could it ever be...(He is like STONEWALL, Arbitrator and Romantic Guy - his TAM twins....all Beta boys )....(and I adore those posters)..... he genuinely likes who he is and everyone else can go suck donkey balls.
> 
> You sound "Alpha enough" to me. And if you are a GOOD man, and she leaves you for someone else... so be it. I know if I dared do that...just cause I'd like him to raise the bar in the bedroom some (only complaint with the man -at times)... It'd be the biggest damn grueling mistake of my lifetime.
> 
> I'm not a stupid woman.... Life is beautiful.
> 
> I loved what Jaquen said here .... Truth.


You don’t get it SA and to be honest with you never have. There’ll be a tiger in your H and you will see it if there’s ever a need for him to produce it.


----------



## jaquen

AFEH said:


> Isn’t it strange? You dish out the criticism willy-nilly. Yet you can’t take it when you get criticised. You see when you put yourself out there and up there, you are of course opening yourself to criticism.


What on God's green Earth are you talking about? I've taken your criticism in stride, and informed you that I'm perfectly fine with you disagreeing with my view. In what universe do you imagine that I'm buckling under the pressure of your lofty criticism?





AFEH said:


> But when you’re challenged you’re seen to be “empty”.


Gorgeous wife who adores me. Check.
Great sex when I want it. Check.
Secure in who I am as a man. Check.

I'm doing alright, thanks. And my recommendations seem to work pretty well for the many male friends in my real life who've turned to me for assistance and advice.

If you consider my POV empty, then hey, somehow I can find a way to live with that. 



AFEH said:


> I did expect better.


It's too bad for you that I sincerely couldn't care less.


----------



## AFEH

jaquen said:


> What on God's green Earth are you talking about? I've taken your criticism in stride, and informed you that I'm perfectly fine with you disagreeing with my view. In what universe do you imagine that I'm buckling under the pressure of your lofty criticism?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gorgeous wife who adores me. Check.
> Great sex when I want it. Check.
> Secure in who I am as a man. Check.
> 
> I'm doing alright, thanks. And my recommendations seem to work pretty well for the many male friends in my real life who've turned to me for assistance and advice.
> 
> If you consider my POV empty, then hey, somehow I can find a way to live with that.
> 
> 
> 
> It's too bad for you that I sincerely couldn't care less.


And still you don't post anything new. But I'm sure there'll be yet more of your criticism.


----------



## jaquen

OK.

Nice talking to you. Happy Thanksgiving.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Is it inconceivable that people _can _change themselves?
Is it impossible for a woman who was very promiscuous to change her life , get married and stay faithful to her husband?
I think so, it happens all the time.
In fact,I have SEEN it happen.

So why can't a man come to the realization that he needs to change his current , negative,deeply rooted behaviours?
Why cant he decide to be more assertive ,build self confidence and respect himself?
It does not matter if he does it incrementally or does a 180 degree turn on himself.
That does NOT automatically mean that he's trying to be someone he is not.
It simply means that he's TRYING.
Not all men were bought up in an environment that gave them positive,manly qualities.
Some were fatherless, some were abused , and some were orphans.
So to assume that one should not seek to better himself using whatever method he sees fit, at any given point in his life, is puzzling to me.

If a rough " douche bag" alpha could tone down his aggressiveness, and adapt more beta , or " nice guy" qualities,that make him more acceptable to a female,
why can't a doormat , ' nice guy" do the opposite?

Anyone CAN change themself.


----------



## that_girl

I don't think doormat and nice guy should be the same. I truly don't. I like nice guys...nice guys are fun to be around. They smile. 

A doormat is just a 'yes man'. No? I hate the labels because it's all so soupy.


----------



## AFEH

Caribbean Man said:


> Is it inconceivable that people _can _change themselves?
> Is it impossible for a woman who was very promiscuous to change her life , get married and stay faithful to her husband?
> I think so, it happens all the time.
> In fact,I have SEEN it happen.
> 
> So why can't a man come to the realization that he needs to change his current , negative,deeply rooted behaviours?
> Why cant he decide to be more assertive ,build self confidence and respect himself?
> It does not matter if he does it incrementally or does a 180 degree turn on himself.
> That does NOT automatically mean that he's trying to be someone he is not.
> It simply means that he's TRYING.
> Not all men were bought up in an environment that gave them positive,manly qualities.
> Some were fatherless, some were abused , and some were orphans.
> So to assume that one should not seek to better himself using whatever method he sees fit, at any given point in his life, is puzzling to me.
> 
> If a rough " douche bag" alpha could tone down his aggressiveness, and adapt more beta , or " nice guy" qualities,that make him more acceptable to a female,
> why can't a doormat , ' nice guy" do the opposite?
> 
> Anyone CAN change themself.


That’s a lot of what it’s all about.

It’s just that a lot of people, to me at least seem to think that every man on the planet somehow automatically becomes a Man. Whereas what in fact actually happens is that a man goes through a series of tests (fitness tests and shet tests) in his life and either comes out of them less of a man or more of a Man.

It’s an individual man’s process of individuation of becoming the man or Man he wants to be. Sometimes it’s the case of what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.



Of course those like a few here who are perfectly content with the man or Man they are and have no need or motivations to change or don’t feel inclined to actually help anyone but gravitate to criticising those that do help, well those type will just kick tyres and walk away when they’re bored. Basically because they didn’t have a good and fundamentally honourable need to be here in the first place.


----------



## BjornFree

Caribbean Man said:


> Is it inconceivable that people _can _change themselves?
> Is it impossible for a woman who was very promiscuous to change her life , get married and stay faithful to her husband?
> I think so, it happens all the time.
> In fact,I have SEEN it happen.
> 
> So why can't a man come to the realization that he needs to change his current , negative,deeply rooted behaviours?
> Why cant he decide to be more assertive ,build self confidence and respect himself?
> It does not matter if he does it incrementally or does a 180 degree turn on himself.
> That does NOT automatically mean that he's trying to be someone he is not.
> It simply means that he's TRYING.
> Not all men were bought up in an environment that gave them positive,manly qualities.
> Some were fatherless, some were abused , and some were orphans.
> So to assume that one should not seek to better himself using whatever method he sees fit, at any given point in his life, is puzzling to me.
> 
> If a rough " douche bag" alpha could tone down his aggressiveness, and adapt more beta , or " nice guy" qualities,that make him more acceptable to a female,
> why can't a doormat , ' nice guy" do the opposite?
> 
> Anyone CAN change themself.


Its not a question of whether he can or cannot. I think the environment you grow up in plays a crucial role in determining your behavior and what you see as right or wrong.

Take for example a boy born to two psychopathic serial killers, unlikely but possible, now these two raise him to be a serial killer too. The end result is that he knows only one way of living. He doesn't know right from wrong because all his life he's been trained to do one thing and living his life any another way is just not possible for him to comprehend on a rational level.

Similarly, when your "nice guy" comes here, even if he doesn't seem to have a problem in his life, telling him to man up and become the alpha will go against his very nature. Asking him to read the books may be a good suggestion but the man must ask himself why he wants to be an alpha. Why do you want to be alpha? 

Now if SA's husband is having a wonderful marriage and a wonderful sex life, why would he want to change the way he is now just so he can fit the general description of an alpha?


----------



## AFEH

that_girl said:


> I don't think doormat and nice guy should be the same. I truly don't. I like nice guys...nice guys are fun to be around. They smile.
> 
> A doormat is just a 'yes man'. No? I hate the labels because it's all so soupy.


You still haven't understood the concepts behind the term Nice Guy. Even after all the time you've spent here.


Mavash has an implicit understanding. The kind of deep level of understanding that can only come from living and experiencing it.


I do too as my wife is a Nice Woman. You really do have to experience these things to understand them. Believe me she was never a doormat and never treated like one. She would have been out the door if that sort of stuff had gone on. They can be a real treasure but they have one heck of a sting.


----------



## jaquen

AFEH said:


> Of course those like a few here who are perfectly content with the man or Man they are and have no need or motivations to change or don’t feel inclined to actually help anyone but gravitate to criticising those that do help, well those type will just kick tyres and walk away when they’re bored. Basically because they didn’t have a good and fundamentally honourable need to be here in the first place.


Oh grow up. 


Of course there is a journey toward being a man. It is a right of passage that all societies make an attempt to define. Do you think those who disagree with you, who have reached a place of contentment in self, arrived there magically, without the taste of defeat, the same blood, sweat, and back breaking work that you put into being the best man possible?

No. The only difference here is that your myopic, narrow minded view supposes that your self help books provide the definitive answer to arriving into manhood, and that any other view offered is somehow less than.

I am very critical of aspects of this alpha/beta/sigma BS. The concepts, in general, hold some weight, but I find a lot missing in the execution. But if that works for a man, than more power to him. The journey is irrelevant if you arrive at the right destination for you. I can speak however from my own journey into manhood, what worked for me, and what has gained me the footing to have the kind of marriage that many envy. I can only speak from my journey, as you should speak from yours.

Stop spending so much time in infantile whining, all in your feelings, bent out of shape because somebody doesn't like the toy you worship. Your passive aggressive barbs, and continual sniveling ,all because somebody doesn't worship NMMNG or MMSL, is anything but "alpha". You are acting like a little spoiled child who discovered that the world doesn't all think his view is the only view.

Man up.


----------



## Caribbean Man

BjornFree said:


> Its not a question of whether he can or cannot. I think the environment you grow up in plays a crucial role in determining your behavior and what you see as right or wrong.
> 
> Take for example a boy born to two psychopathic serial killers, unlikely but possible, now these two raise him to be a serial killer too. The end result is that he knows only one way of living. He doesn't know right from wrong because all his life he's been trained to do one thing and living his life any another way is just not possible for him to comprehend on a rational level.
> 
> Similarly, when your "nice guy" comes here, even if he doesn't seem to have a problem in his life, telling him to man up and become the alpha will go against his very nature. Asking him to read the books may be a good suggestion but the man must ask himself why he wants to be an alpha. Why do you want to be alpha?
> 
> Now if SA's husband is having a wonderful marriage and a wonderful sex life, why would he want to change the way he is now just so he can fit the general description of an alpha?


Well I don't think SA's husband needs to change anything. Furthermore, SA's husband is not as beta as everybody seems to think.
Therin lies the problem.
The man is providing for his family, he has a wife and children who adores and respects him. They have absolutely no problem in their sex life.
The man in already_ the Alpha _ in his home!
He is THE MAN!

And that's the point. People automatically associate this alpha stuff with a lot of negative stereotypes.
Its a fluid concept and it applies differently in different situations,especially in marriage.
Of course there are the fundamentals that don't change , but like any solution, it can only work if applied at the correct time and in appropriate dosages.
So if a guy sees himself as weak and indecisive ,and one of the main principles mentioned in the alpha concept is knowing exactly what you want and going after it.
Does him following this advice automatically mean that he's donning a fake exoskeletal armour in order to get some pvssy?

I think that's rather harsh and judgemental.
Nothing could be more ridiculous.


----------



## Caribbean Man

AFEH said:


> *Mavash has an implicit understanding. The kind of deep level of understanding that can only come from living and experiencing it.
> *


:iagree:

She has an excellent thread explaining the problem in its full context.
She and Kathy Basel thoroughly explained the difference between the term " nice guy " and a " Good Man ". Often times, both are terms are confused one with the other.


----------



## that_girl

AFEH said:


> You still haven't understood the concepts behind the term Nice Guy. Even after all the time you've spent here.
> 
> 
> Mavash has an implicit understanding. The kind of deep level of understanding that can only come from living and experiencing it.
> 
> 
> I do too as my wife is a Nice Woman. You really do have to experience these things to understand them. Believe me she was never a doormat and never treated like one. She would have been out the door if that sort of stuff had gone on. They can be a real treasure but they have one heck of a sting.


The way people talk about "nice guys" here is like it's a bad thing.


That's what I was saying. And don't talk to me like I'm stupid. Thanks.


----------



## BjornFree

that_girl said:


> The way people talk about "nice guys" here is like it's a bad thing.
> 
> 
> That's what I was saying. And don't talk to me like I'm stupid. Thanks.


Haven't you noticed? That is the way he talks to everyone. Neither attractive nor alpha nor mature. Best not to engage in a conversation.


----------



## BjornFree

Caribbean Man said:


> Well I don't think SA's husband needs to change anything. Furthermore, SA's husband is not as beta as everybody seems to think.
> Therin lies the problem.
> The man is providing for his family, he has a wife and children who adores and respects him. They have absolutely no problem in their sex life.
> The man in already_ the Alpha _ in his home!
> He is THE MAN!
> 
> And that's the point. People automatically associate this alpha stuff with a lot of negative stereotypes.
> Its a fluid concept and it applies differently in different situations,especially in marriage.
> Of course there are the fundamentals that don't change , but like any solution, it can only work if applied at the correct time and in appropriate dosages.
> So if a guy sees himself as weak and indecisive ,and one of the main principles mentioned in the alpha concept is knowing exactly what you want and going after it.
> Does him following this advice automatically mean that he's donning a fake exoskeletal armour in order to get some pvssy?
> 
> I think that's rather harsh and judgemental.
> Nothing could be more ridiculous.


You're missing my point friend. My real question is, would the need for changing his attitude ever arise when one is secure in himself as he is, just so that he can fit into a role? 

Now let us assume that a man is not dominant. He has a girlfriend who one day says that she isn't interested in him but rather than trying to become more dominant, he leaves, not willing to change his nature. What would you call him?


----------



## AFEH

jaquen said:


> Oh grow up.
> 
> 
> Of course there is a journey toward being a man. It is a right of passage that all societies make an attempt to define. Do you think those who disagree with you, who have reached a place of contentment in self, arrived there magically, without the taste of defeat, the same blood, sweat, and back breaking work that you put into being the best man possible?
> 
> No. The only difference here is that your myopic, narrow minded view supposes that your self help books provide the definitive answer to arriving into manhood, and that any other view offered is somehow less than.
> 
> I am very critical of aspects of this alpha/beta/sigma BS. The concepts, in general, hold some weight, but I find a lot missing in the execution. But if that works for a man, than more power to him. The journey is irrelevant if you arrive at the right destination for you. I can speak however from my own journey into manhood, what worked for me, and what has gained me the footing to have the kind of marriage that many envy. I can only speak from my journey, as you should speak from yours.
> 
> Stop spending so much time in infantile whining, all in your feelings, bent out of shape because somebody doesn't like the toy you worship. Your passive aggressive barbs, and continual sniveling ,all because somebody doesn't worship NMMNG or MMSL, is anything but "alpha". You are acting like a little spoiled child who discovered that the world doesn't all think his view is the only view.
> 
> Man up.


Yet again you are wrong. Just how many times can you be so very wrong? NMMG and MMSL are not my recommendations, I haven’t even read them. They are not my bibles. But many here have turned their lives around by implementing the lessons contained in them.


Just for the record my recommended readings are Awareness: The Perils and Opportunities of Reality: Anthony De Mello, J. Francis Stroud: 9780385249379: Amazon.com: Books and Hold on to Your NUTs: The Relationship Manual for Men: Wayne M. Levine: 9780979054402: Amazon.com: Books.

Both of the books have been seriously and positively life changing for some of the people here, women as well as men. Just like the first two books, many here have turned their lives around by implementing the lessons they contain.

I also introduced the 180 because what went on before was turning wimps into doormats. Wife having a an affair? You’re not looking after her! Buy her chocolates and roses every day for the next year! Yes. Bad behaviour was being rewarded. I changed all that. It’s a very different place now.


You’re comfortable in your world and within your marriage. That’s seriously good. I was comfortable 95% of the time in my 42 year relationship with my wife, good companionship, as much good sex as any man can ever dream of, food to die for, the list goes on and on.

But shet happens and when it does that’s when you discover the man or Man you are. This place is a haven for those men that find themselves deep in shet. The Men here helped me out big time and that’s why I defend what goes on here.




Your criticism isn’t even constructive. It’s just criticism.


----------



## Caribbean Man

BjornFree said:


> You're missing my point friend. My real question is, would the need for changing his attitude ever arise when one is secure in himself as he is, just so that he can fit into a role?
> 
> Now let us assume that a man is not dominant. He has a girlfriend who one day says that she isn't interested in him but rather than trying to become more dominant, he leaves, not willing to change his nature. What would you call him?


Well if his girlfriend tells him that she's no longer interested,
then where is he leaving to go?

She has already left him!
He has absolutely nowhere to go and chances are that if she left because he's indecisive, he'll remain single for the rest of his life until he becomes more dominant/decisive.

If he gets married to a dominant female who's a conniving bytch, he'll be in "jail " for the rest of his life.
She will be the one who treats him like the nasty piece of gum that got stuck below her stilettos.

Most likely he will post his story on TAM.


----------



## AFEH

that_girl said:


> The way people talk about "nice guys" here is like it's a bad thing.
> 
> 
> That's what I was saying. And don't talk to me like I'm stupid. Thanks.


It is a bad thing. That’s what you are not getting.

It’s bad for them and it’s bad for their wives.

Why on earth do you think so many Nice Guys turn their life around by reading the book? Believe me it’s not because being a Nice Guy is a good thing.


We all have a shadow, a side to us we can’t see or refuse to see. The brighter the sun the darker the shadow and some Nice Guy’s shadows are very deep and very dark.


NMMG gets the Nice Guy to see his shadow and to work on it. Which essentially means to become more authentic, more real, more open, more honest.


----------



## BjornFree

Caribbean Man said:


> Well if his girlfriend tells him that she's no longer interested,
> then where is he leaving to go?
> 
> She has already left him!
> He has absolutely nowhere to go and chances are that if she left because he's indecisive, he'll remain single for the rest of his life until he becomes more dominant/decisive.


And how did you come to the conclusion that dominance and decisiveness were one and the same? Does being decisive necessarily mean that the individual is dominant?


----------



## that_girl

Omg. I won't even argue with you anymore. I don't use the term "nice guy" to mean something bad. Doormat and nice guy aren't the same. I don't think books should either. It gives the impression that men should be a-holes to be a man.

A nice guy with strong boundaries is not a doormat.

Ugh. whatever. Enjoy your labels.


----------



## Caribbean Man

BjornFree said:


> And how did you come to the conclusion that dominance and decisiveness were one and the same? Does being decisive necessarily mean that the individual is dominant?


If a person is not dominant then he's submissive.
A person cannot be submissive and decisive.

Submissive (or passive) behavior means shying away from saying what you really mean and not seeking to achieve your needs, particularly when someone else has conflicting needs.

But lets not get sidetracked with the semantics.
A man who is not dominant, even in his own life , will always have problems with women.


----------



## AFEH

that_girl said:


> Omg. I won't even argue with you anymore. I don't use the term "nice guy" to mean something bad. Doormat and nice guy aren't the same. I don't think books should either. It gives the impression that men should be a-holes to be a man.
> 
> A nice guy with strong boundaries is not a doormat.
> 
> Ugh. whatever. Enjoy your labels.


All that really matters is that the man who has the problems "gets it".


----------



## Caribbean Man

BjornFree said:


> *Now let us assume that a man is not dominant. He has a girlfriend who one day says that she isn't interested in him but rather than trying to become more dominant, he leaves, not willing to change his nature. What would you call him?*


........and so to answer your question,

I'll call him stupid.
Only stupid people don't change.

He'll be a SINGLE MAN for the rest of his life.


----------



## Gangland

To knock the nice guy thing out.. The reason that gets such a 
bad rep is because when women are telling you you are a doormat 
and they're aren't attracted to you they use this phrase:

"You're such a *nice guy*, someday you'll find someone who loves you for that."

Hear that enough times, and you start to realize that being a nice guy is not a 
good thing. Guys relate to that. What they've never head is:

"You're such a doormat, someday you'll find someone who loves you for that."

Most guys, whether they're a doormat or not, when they hear that are going to think, 
"I'm not a doormat, I'm just kinda nice." and because they think that they'll continue 
being a doormat.

Tell a guy to stop being a nice guy and he can relate to that
more because he's been told he's a nice guy numerous times 
and in his head he is a nice guy. He'll have to change that, and he'll 
describe it as that's what he's changing, so being a nice guy gets a bad rep. 
But for some, this is necessasary.

The same with Alpha, telling someone to be confident is bull****

Nobody can just be confident. Confidence comes from repeatedly doing 
something enough times that you're confident that you can do it again. 
Do that with enough things and you'll be confident overall.

Telling someone to be a jerk, when they've been a nice guy all their 
lives is more likely to work. The guy will slowly get more assertive 
until he's calibrated it to how he wants to be. Nobody just goes 
from nice guy to jerk in one day and Alpha doesn't mean jerk. 
Otherwise we'd just use jerk.

Being Alpha.. is basically someone who is rooted very strongly in 
what he wants and his own frame as a man. This comes off as a jerkish 
because you start to value yourself and control yourself more than you 
did before. Sometimes you make decisions for yourself that hurt peoples feelings. 
You start to care less about the outcome of things. 

The part that is hard for most of you to swallow is that most of the time 
(not every time) this outlook, this aloofness, IMPROVES your marriage. 
You're wife and kids WANT to respect you. A lot of times with my wife she didnt WANT 
to have to make the decisions... and she didn't even know this until I started making them 
and she started trusting me to make them.

Most of the time if a person needs more alpha it's not because he's weak. 
It's because he truly believes what he's doing is working. 

If you are getting the respect from your wife and kids etc than you don't need 
any of this. You already are Alpha. It's not the sweetness and lovingness that's 
beta. I still do all of that. It's the supplicating, and subordinating yourself to your 
wife because you think that's what will make her happy. Especially if at your core 
you want to do differently.

One last thing, manning up for you wife does not lead to the conclusion that you will 
leave her for treating you like ****. the reason she was treating you that way is because 
you weren't manning up. Women test you to see if you're a fit mate. This i biologically wired 
into them and our measly 400 years of technology has not evolved us out of it. if you can't 
take her, what makes you think you can protect her from something stronger than her? 
Manning up usually solves this, and if it doesn't' THAT's when you leave... but you would 
have had to leave anyway because she was treating you like **** remember?


----------



## Caribbean Man

Gangland said:


> Nobody can just be confident. Confidence comes from repeatedly doing
> something enough times that you're confident that you can do it again.
> Do that with enough things and you'll be confident overall.


I like the sound of this. This is what I've been taught since I was a boy. _Practise makes perfect._

"...Nobody can just be confident. Confidence comes from repeatedly doing 
something enough times and succeeding at it ,that you're confident that you can do it again. 
Do that with enough things and you'll be confident overall..."

The important thing is taking that first step.


----------



## BjornFree

Caribbean Man said:


> If a person is not dominant then he's submissive.
> A person cannot be submissive and decisive.
> 
> Submissive (or passive) behavior means shying away from saying what you really mean and not seeking to achieve your needs, particularly when someone else has conflicting needs.


My question was How did you come to the conclusion that dominance and decisiveness are one and the same?.

To be dominant you need to be in a group. An individual can choose to not be a part of the group. So he walks away, that is him being decisive and not dominant, and he certainly isn't submissive. The fact that he walked away showed that he is on the quest to achieve his needs when someone else's needs conflict his own.


----------



## jaquen

It's very odd that, according to the general consensus, the Beta man is villainized.

Yet, again, the link posted earlier regarding the Greek categories clearly stated that the Beta man is the optimal category. He can get the girl, keep the girl, and all without the work, and pressure, of being the Alpha.

What TAM calls "Beta" seems to be what that link was calling "Delta".



Caribbean Man said:


> Well I don't think SA's husband needs to change anything. Furthermore, SA's husband is not as beta as everybody seems to think.
> Therin lies the problem.
> The man is providing for his family, he has a wife and children who adores and respects him. They have absolutely no problem in their sex life.
> The man in already_ the Alpha _ in his home!
> He is THE MAN!


He is THE MAN...with SA. SA has made it perfectly clear that her husband didn't change so much as she went through a metamorphosis herself and began to truly appreciate him (on the sexual front). SA has been the one who has undergone an incredible change from the more conservative, closed off woman she was. Because, contrary to all of this talk about men being the man ingredient, SA shows us that women discovering themselves is just as imperative in this process. 

SA has a great guy. But if SA were a different person, or he was married to a far less appreciative, centered, open woman, than that same man would come to TAM and be told he needed to become an "alpha". Or his wife would come in, complain about him being too beta, and SA's great guy would become the new pariah of TAM.

But the truth of the matter is that Mr. SA is a great guy period. He's just a great guy who married a great girl. Telling him to become "alpha", as is designated by these self help books, would send an already amazing dude into a spiral of unnecessary, and even destructive, change.

Which is why I advocate men, regardless of temperament, to find self acceptance, be proud of, and OWN, who he truly is, and then find a woman who can see, appreciate, and adore that.


----------



## Ikaika

Caribbean Man said:


> *If a person is not dominant then he's submissive.*
> A person cannot be submissive and decisive.
> 
> Submissive (or passive) behavior means shying away from saying what you really mean and not seeking to achieve your needs, particularly when someone else has conflicting needs.
> 
> But lets not get sidetracked with the semantics.
> A man who is not dominant, even in his own life , will always have problems with women.


population statistics would suggest that people are not binary on most traits. I think assuming we all exist along binary personalities or traits is a bit disingenuous 

View attachment 1879


----------



## Caribbean Man

jaquen said:


> It's very odd that, according to the general consensus, the Beta man is villainized.
> 
> Yet, again, the link posted earlier regarding the Greek categories clearly stated that the Beta man is the optimal category. He can get the girl, keep the girl, and all without the work, and pressure, of being the Alpha.
> 
> What TAM calls "Beta" seems to be what that link was calling "Delta".
> 
> 
> 
> He is THE MAN...with SA. SA has made it perfectly clear that her husband didn't change so much as she went through a metamorphosis herself and began to truly appreciate him (on the sexual front). SA has been the one who has undergone an incredible change from the more conservative, closed off woman she was. Because, contrary to all of this talk about men being the man ingredient, SA shows us that women discovering themselves is just as imperative in this process.
> 
> SA has a great guy. But if SA were a different person, or he was married to a far less appreciative, centered, open woman, than that same man would come to TAM and be told he needed to become an "alpha". Or his wife would come in, complain about him being too beta, and SA's great guy would become the new pariah of TAM.
> 
> But the truth of the matter is that Mr. SA is a great guy period. He's just a great guy who married a great girl. Telling him to become "alpha", as is designated by these self help books, would send an already amazing dude into a spiral of unnecessary, and even destructive, change.
> 
> Which is why I advocate men, regardless of temperament, to find self acceptance, be proud of, and OWN, who he truly is, and then find a woman who can see, appreciate, and adore that.


There is ABSOLUTELY no need for Mr. SA to " man up, be more confident, become the Alpha" , or ANYTHING.

But the dynamics in SA's marriage is clearly not the same in many other men who are like her husband.
These men are dominated just like both you and I said would happen if Mr. SA had married another devious , controlling woman.
SA completes her husband in a beautiful way.
That is how marriages are supposed to work.
Emperical evidence suggests that is not the case.

So for the unfortunate guy who does not want a divorce, and has a controlling, disrespectful wife. What can he do?


----------



## BjornFree

drerio said:


> population statistics would suggest that people are not binary on most traits. I think assuming we all exist along binary personalities or traits is a bit disingenuous
> 
> View attachment 1879


Exactly, to generalize someone as an alpha beta or whatever is pointless. If the person acknowledges his problem and fixes it, that's all he's done. Fixed his problem. He's still the same person. And no one needs labels. Just because a man has a problem with using emoticons why would he project his problem onto other men who are quite comfortable using them?


----------



## BjornFree

Caribbean Man said:


> But the dynamics in SA's marriage is clearly not the same in many other men who are like her husband.
> These men are dominated just like both you and I said would happen if Mr. SA had married another devious , controlling woman.



But you previously described such a man as being single for the rest of his life. Why are you contradicting your own statements now? How would MrSA have known that SA was not a devious controlling woman before marriage? Why do you assume that Mr SA would stay with such a woman?


----------



## Caribbean Man

BjornFree said:


> But you previously described such a man as being single for the rest of his life. Why are you contradicting your own statements now? How would MrSA have known that SA was not a devious controlling woman before marriage? Why do you assume that Mr SA would stay with such a woman?



Your assumptions are wrong.
You are assuming that because Mr. SA is an introvert, he is not dominant in his marriage.
Nothing could be further from the truth!


----------



## AFEH

jaquen said:


> It's very odd that, according to the general consensus, the Beta man is villainized.
> 
> Yet, again, the link posted earlier regarding the Greek categories clearly stated that the Beta man is the optimal category. He can get the girl, keep the girl, and all without the work, and pressure, of being the Alpha.
> 
> What TAM calls "Beta" seems to be what that link was calling "Delta".
> 
> 
> 
> He is THE MAN...with SA. SA has made it perfectly clear that her husband didn't change so much as she went through a metamorphosis herself and began to truly appreciate him (on the sexual front). SA has been the one who has undergone an incredible change from the more conservative, closed off woman she was. Because, contrary to all of this talk about men being the man ingredient, SA shows us that women discovering themselves is just as imperative in this process.
> 
> SA has a great guy. But if SA were a different person, or he was married to a far less appreciative, centered, open woman, than that same man would come to TAM and be told he needed to become an "alpha". Or his wife would come in, complain about him being too beta, and SA's great guy would become the new pariah of TAM.
> 
> But the truth of the matter is that Mr. SA is a great guy period. He's just a great guy who married a great girl. Telling him to become "alpha", as is designated by these self help books, would send an already amazing dude into a spiral of unnecessary, and even destructive, change.
> 
> Which is why I advocate men, regardless of temperament, to find self acceptance, be proud of, and OWN, who he truly is, and then find a woman who can see, appreciate, and adore that.


You’ve created a scenario that just doesn’t exist. That’s a Strawman argument. If you don’t know what it is see Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

And nobody but nobody has villainised the beta man, least of all SA's H. He's quite respected here. Another Strawman of yours.


----------



## BjornFree

Caribbean Man said:


> Your assumptions are wrong.
> You are assuming that because Mr. SA is an introvert, he is not dominant in his marriage.
> Nothing could be further from the truth!


Perhaps. Carry on..


----------



## Caribbean Man

BjornFree said:


> Perhaps. Carry on..


Well, I have a business meeting to attend now.
lol, I'm not in the USA , so today is a normal working day for me.
So I guess I'll be back on later this evening.

Nice chatting with you!


----------



## Open up now let it all go

Caribbean Man said:


> So for the unfortunate guy who does not want a divorce, and has a controlling, disrespectful wife. What can he do?


Run?


----------



## Gangland

> Which is why I advocate men, regardless of temperament, to find self acceptance, be proud of, and OWN, who he truly is, and then find a woman who can see, appreciate, and adore that.


But you see, this is the BS that gets them into trouble in the first place.

It's statistically impossible to think that every man can just be himself, and that there will be a mate who can see, appreciate and adore that,

You're completely ignoring the FACT that to most if not all women, what's attractive in a male is dominance, decisiveness, and a few physical things like size, height, etc.

In the same way that most, if not all men, will tell you they like slim waists, wide hips, supple breasts and bright smiles.

What's attractive is sought after, and because of this there is competition. To tell a man to just be himself, even if that self is unattractive to most mates, is to tell him not to compete.

If you're still in a marriage, the reason to raise your attractiveness is because, well, have you seen how women respond to attractiveness? They don't respond with constant nagging, they don't respond with b*tching, they don't respond with "lets just be friends," or "I love you but I'm not in love with you." The same woman who's treating you like a peace of garbage would treat Brad Pitt like a king.

The way to describe that attractiveness has been attributed to "Being more Alpha" It's the same as telling a wife who's let herself go and wants her husband to look at her more to get in the gym, slim up, dress better. (in fact these are all faucets of the male version of being alpha) Sure she's changing herself, but it's not just better for him, It's better for her... forever.


----------



## jaquen

AFEH said:


> Yet again you are wrong. Just how many times can you be so very wrong? NMMG and MMSL are not my recommendations, I haven’t even read them. They are not my bibles. But many here have turned their lives around by implementing the lessons contained in them.
> 
> 
> Just for the record my recommended readings are Awareness: The Perils and Opportunities of Reality: Anthony De Mello, J. Francis Stroud: 9780385249379: Amazon.com: Books and Hold on to Your NUTs: The Relationship Manual for Men: Wayne M. Levine: 9780979054402: Amazon.com: Books.
> 
> Both of the books have been seriously and positively life changing for some of the people here, women as well as men. Just like the first two books, many here have turned their lives around by implementing the lessons they contain.
> 
> I also introduced the 180 because what went on before was turning wimps into doormats. Wife having a an affair? You’re not looking after her! Buy her chocolates and roses every day for the next year! Yes. Bad behaviour was being rewarded. I changed all that. It’s a very different place now.
> 
> 
> You’re comfortable in your world and within your marriage. That’s seriously good. I was comfortable 95% of the time in my 42 year relationship with my wife, good companionship, as much good sex as any man can ever dream of, food to die for, the list goes on and on.
> 
> But shet happens and when it does that’s when you discover the man or Man you are. This place is a haven for those men that find themselves deep in shet. The Men here helped me out big time and that’s why I defend what goes on here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your criticism isn’t even constructive. It’s just criticism.


Then why the hell are we having this asinine, petty debate if the concepts I'm criticizing aren't even the ones you adhere to?

Good God.



AFEH said:


> You’ve created a scenario that just doesn’t exist. That’s a Strawman argument. If you don’t know what it is see Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
> 
> And nobody but nobody has villainised the beta man, least of all SA's H. He's quite respected here. Another Strawman of yours.


I know what a strawman argument is, but thanks for the links. Clearly you didn't even comprehend the point I was discussing with CM, and your attempts to suggest that beta men aren't villainized on TAM are both weak, and laughable. 

Do you imagine your little snide, arrogant comebacks are effective with me? Does this act actually work to intimidate others on TAM? I'm still waiting for the punchline, because surely you can't be serious.


----------



## jaquen

Caribbean Man said:


> There is ABSOLUTELY no need for Mr. SA to " man up, be more confident, become the Alpha" , or ANYTHING.
> 
> But the dynamics in SA's marriage is clearly not the same in many other men who are like her husband.
> These men are dominated just like both you and I said would happen if Mr. SA had married another devious , controlling woman.
> SA completes her husband in a beautiful way.
> That is how marriages are supposed to work.
> Emperical evidence suggests that is not the case.
> 
> *So for the unfortunate guy who does not want a divorce, and has a controlling, disrespectful wife. What can he do?*


Get his balls back enough to leave her ass and find his SA.

That's my point. If Mr. SA was married to someone else and came here to TAM he would be told he's too beta, and that he needs to change. The default would be to get an already great guy to alter his core self in order to be stronger for his mate.

When the truth of the matter is that Mr. SA would need to drop that harpy of a wife/fiance/girlfriend, and find a woman who truly loves, cherishes, and gets him.

We don't seem to have a lot of respect on this board for the Mr. SA's of the world. But if the Mr. SA's would find pride in who they were, they wouldn't compromise to be with women who will NEVER appreciate them.

TAM is filled with men who are with women they should _never_ have been with.


----------



## Caribbean Man

jaquen said:


> Get his balls back enough to leave her ass and find his SA.
> 
> That's my point. If Mr. SA was married to someone else and came here to TAM he would be told he's too beta, and that he needs to change. The default would be to get an already great guy to alter his core self in order to be stronger for his mate.
> 
> When the truth of the matter is that Mr. SA would need to drop that harpy of a wife/fiance/girlfriend, and find a woman who truly loves, cherishes, and gets him.
> 
> We don't seem to have a lot of respect on this board for the Mr. SA's of the world. But if the Mr. SA's would find pride in who they were, they wouldn't compromise to be with women who will NEVER appreciate them.
> 
> TAM is filled with men who are with women they should _never_ have been with.


I think we are saying the same thing and going in circles Jaquen.

You say _to[ may ]toes_
I say _to[ mar]toes_.

In the end we're both talking about TOMATOES.


----------



## jaquen

Caribbean Man said:


> I think we are saying the same thing...


We more often than not are.

:smthumbup:


----------



## lovelygirl

Thanx to TAM I've learned what "alpha man" is and that I'm attracted to that type.
I knew it deep down inside but I didn't know what it was and why I felt that way. I thought it was just me liking that type of man but when I came here I learned that that's what most women are attracted to. 
I learned that the way I feel towards a "too nice" guy and how much he's a turn off for me....in the end is normal.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> You don’t get it SA and to be honest with you never have. There’ll be a tiger in your H and you will see it if there’s ever a need for him to produce it.


I do believe I get it... I have the *NMMNG book*, "*Married Men's Sex Primer* " even the "*Hold on to your Nuts*" to boot... .With all our sons....they may come in handy, and I just happen to LIKE this subject.

I agree too much of this is going on >>>









.... I even praise those books....suggest them on here very often, links and all.......Have even went up against some of the women -gotten my a$$ chewed sticking up / defending Athol & what he teaches....because they DO have a worthy message that can HELP MANY men.....many need to come to a place ...*being willing to LOOSE their wives in order to gain them.*.. I know you would agree with this... so do I !



I can see high value in many of your posts .....but also Jaquens. 

I don't like to see unruly wives brow beating their husbands...







I'm all for these men standing up & letting the hammer FALL ....

....In our past, my husband DID need more of this very thing... but still ...he wouldn't have changed... *does that make him a fool ?* Go ahead AFEH... you can say it....

After going through so many pages of MNMNG with him one fine morning....laying on the bed together....identifying where he missed it ....areas that men falter , too much PLEASING -feeling they will be more loved....after going through these with check marks..(his agreeing even)..

I purposely said to him.....

"Well honey, now that you have learned all of this... if we could go back in time and do this all over again & you got more sex....would you have told me what for, pushed a little harder, stirred the conflict with me?" he pauses... and what comes out of his mouth....."No, I couldn't do anything to hurt you... I'd still do it all the same" ... 

Ok AFEH.... tell me , what the hell do you do with a man like this??? I even said to him - "OMG, you're hopeless, you are freaking hopeless!" I wasn't mad but at the same time, this realization came over me... THIS MAN WOULD NEVER HAVE CHANGED TO BENEFIT HIMSELF... that's it. What is their affliction.. do they love too much or are they fools... or are they just who they are.. You tell me. 

Should I look down on him for this ?? For putting me 1st in everything, even if it hurts him more so ... or should I view him as WEAKLY??? If you were me, what would you do?

He never changed. *I changed.* And frankly, if he was married to a low driving women, How sad it would be, I know he is not the type that would cheat, he is not demanding, he is very loving. He would have just grown resentment & stayed faithful. I could see it. Thank the LORD above he married me! 

There is not much of a Tiger in him ..... No, the only time I would see this is if someone was going to HURT me, or our children.....He's told me he'd go *CRAZY*... I believe that with all my being. He'd protect us with his life in a heart beat.....So yeah...it would be there. Will I ever see that side of him....I don't know. 

Should I look down on him ...I wasn't always so sweet in our past (he'd say I am exaggerating here)... When I broke up with him in our teens, he waited around for me, I saw him as a "sure thing"...I knew I had him -and by the balls. One could say I took advantage and he let me! Blinded by love, didn't know how to play the game of attraction or he was just WHO HE WAS, not a game player ?? 

I just happen to think women who give up men like that are stupid. It's a different perspective I suppose....maybe totally misplaced in these discussions ...you may have me on that one.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> Well I don't think SA's husband needs to change anything. Furthermore, SA's husband is not as beta as everybody seems to think.
> Therin lies the problem.
> The man is providing for his family, he has a wife and children who adores and respects him. They have absolutely no problem in their sex life.
> The man in already_ the Alpha _ in his home!
> He is THE MAN!


I'm still going to beg to differ here... I still would not call my husband ALPHA...if I want to be true to the real meanings... I'm sorry... 

Yes...He is Honorable, Trustworthy, a man of his word, lives for his family, and has awesome character.... the man has seriously NEVER let me down....ya know... I said this to him once, that I couldn't recall 1 time that he's disappointed me... in over 30 yrs together..... and within seconds, he says ...."Yes I did...that time I was late picking you up after school... & you got grounded"... WOW... unreal... I guess that really bothered him. Can you imagine. I didn't even remember it ! 

I am very spoiled one might say. 

This is still more associated with GOOD BETA .... He is not overweight & looks decent for his age (he is lower test though - so physically fit may not even apply!)... his being an Introvert who isn't dressing in a suit & tie is not attracting women - so there goes the









He'd never want to be a Boss or Leader...that'd have him pulling his hair out (he doesn't even like people).... and he is not mysterious either (which is fine with me ~ I prefer Transparency) , I'd say he is more "routine"..... so again.. Not ALPHA... 

A BETA husband is not less of a GOOD husband in comparison to one praised ALPHA.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> You’ve created a scenario that just doesn’t exist. That’s a Strawman argument. If you don’t know what it is see Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
> 
> And nobody but nobody has villainised the beta man, least of all SA's H. He's quite respected here. Another Strawman of yours.


Sorry to say this, but I often feel the Betas villainization.... 

I constantly see traits that are GOOD BETA used as ALPHA.....its all over this thread....seeping.... even you did this a few pages ago ...I almost pointed it out, gotta restrain my nit picking once in a while... 

Here it is .... Post #457


> *AFEH said*: Part of being an Alpha is to hold yourself totally accountable and responsible for your actions and where you are in your life. *Least of all to blame your parents or your age for your position in life*. *That’s exceptionally beta*.


 Why is this exceptionally *BETA* ?? 

I could say ...."Part of being *BETA *is to hold yourself totally accountable and responsible for your actions and where you are in your life. " and this is just as TRUE as your statement. 

*BETA = Brings home the Bacon/ Responsibility is ALSO VERY BETA*.. why does ALPHA get all the goods?? 

Alpha is related to getting women's panties in a tickle >>> Leadership/ attraction building / Dominance/ excitement ....but by no means does so called GOOD ALPHA ... deserve "RESPONSIBILITY" over GOOD BETA... 

In fact, notice Athol's chart, it says NOT a Provider is NOT BETA at all ..... Beta is too often thrown under the bus.


----------



## Chumpless

Almost 11,000 posts, and you're still debating? Why?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

lovelygirl said:


> Thanx to TAM I've learned what "*alpha man*" is and that I'm attracted to that type.
> I knew it deep down inside but I didn't know what it was and why I felt that way. I thought it was just me liking that type of man but when I came here I learned that that's what most women are attracted to.
> I learned that the way I feel towards a "too nice" guy and how much he's a turn off for me....in the end is normal.


I have a friend like yourself .... I give you a word of caution.... make damn sure that his ALPHA is balanced with some GOOD BETA too....you don't want too much ALPHA in a man lacking the other. 

My beautiful blonde GF from high school was suckered in by one who ooozed ALPHA appeal... but underneath that... Beta was hard to come by......she was so TURNED ON by him (gorgeous , Killer Job, Funny, women round about him, oh yeah)...she lost all her senses....they married... he cheated on her time & time again... she divorced him ....(Messy costly custody battle from hell )....it was so bad, she took her maiden name again....

THEN ...oh the power of the ALPHA MALE...he lured himself back into her bed....I was there watching him PLAY with her emotions, trusting him again, LIE after LIE after LIE, never returning her calls...More cheating..... 

Finally out of his grasp... now she has lost both her sons to this man who makes so much $$ & is such a JERK off - she is near ruined, every man she meets is TOXIC - she expects betrayal, it sabotaged her last relationship... She is broken & alone now . I don't think she is able to trust another man....she needs therapy....it is the saddest thing ever. (He was married 3 times -cheated on every wife)....

Oh the value of finding a man *Balanced* in these traits. Never overlook this. You desire one tipped MORE ALPHA..that's fine....but do not withhold the BETA, or you will be one miserable woman later on. I speak this as one who has seen 2 marriages go this route.


----------



## Machiavelli

SimplyAmorous said:


> I constantly see traits that are GOOD BETA used as ALPHA.....its all over this thread....seeping.... even you did this a few pages ago ...I almost pointed it out, gotta restrain my nit picking once in a while... In fact, notice Athol's chart, it says NOT a Provider is NOT BETA at all ..... Beta is too often thrown under the bus.


You understand. Alpha traits are generally dark triad. That's why they are at the top of the social heap with the good job, the hot women (not a hot woman), and the accolades that go with both. This is the top 10% of men in terms of sexual disirability that most women are attracted to. And a bunch of these same women are also attracted to the next 10% (Pareto Principal). Nevertheless, most women are not attracted to most men.

What everyone on here forgets is that the women pick the sexual Alphas. A man doesn't get to label himself. Nevertheless The whole point of the alpha-up exercise is for guys who don't have enough of the dark triad on their bell curve to add some of the milder behaviors to their standard beta/delta behaviors from time to time in order to maintain attraction. It's not necessary to truly become a Machiavellian psychopath in order to get laid like Machiavelli.


----------



## Chumpless

SimplyAmorous said:


> *Balanced* in these traits. Never overlook this.


Nuf said.


----------



## Chumpless

Machiavelli said:


> ...in order to get laid like Machiavelli.


Forget Machiavelli. He was a "boot licking, wannabe, sado-masicistic, narcissistic" royal scumbag. Pardon the words.

I'd rather be a monk with values than a POS elitest getting all the poontang in the world stomping on everybody below him.


----------



## BookOfJob

From Machiavelli:


Machiavelli said:


> ......Alpha traits are generally dark triad. .......... This is the top 10% of men in terms of sexual disirability that most women are attracted to.


From Wikipedia (Dark Triad):


> *As mating strategy*
> .........those high on the Dark Triad tend to have an accelerated mating strategy, reporting more sex partners, more favorable attitudes towards casual sex, lowered standards in their short-term mates, a tendency to steal or poach mates from others, ........


Maybe "more sex partners" does not necessarily mean "most women are attracted to". The quote from Wiki in underline kind of explains it.

The trait *in its pure form and by itself* doesn't sound like something to be glorified and not exactly a "woman getter+keeper" recipe, IMO. This concept (of alpha) gives NG persons (who are in troubled relationships) a direction, but the concept requires a complete understanding of what it does (or doesn't) mean. For someone who's really been lost, it almost like telling someone who hasn't eaten a mango what a mango is like (its outside has the same color of leaves, has soft inside with the color of an orange, etc, etc...)(*)



(*)(I am borrowing this from the book Awareness)


----------



## oldgeezer

Just an observation... This alpha / beta discussion goes on and on, round and round... And what I get from it, is that those who subscribe to this are of the belief that women are inherently incapable of self control, and that they will, no matter what, break their relationship to seek the "alpha male" they desire. And if you're not the alpha male, then you have to become one, or your marriage / relationship / sex life / etc is simply a charade, played out until the woman gets bored and wants more excitement. 

In men, they call this "mid life crisis" and it's an identity problem - we're not who we think we are, and we suddenly have to prove to the world we're still relevant, attractive, desirable, masculine... 

But yet, the MLC is particularly relevant to only a small fraction of the population. And supposedly the true Alphas are 1/10 of the population. 

The numbers don't work out. Lots more than that stay married. 

I do believe there are women (I know one) who just can't help going for the bold and "strong" types. And she gets abused. No, nobody's beaten her, etc, they just do NOT meet her emotional needs at all. 

I know others who definitely avoid the alpha males, have married, lived for decades married and will die that way. 

Now, the parts about standing up for yourself, staying healthy and fit... these are good, period. But only a small segment of the people in the world have the qualities to be an attractive leader. You can't pretend to be one. 

All I can read about NMMNG, is that emotionally dependent men set themselves up for failure in many ways. But the advice to change your personna to be an alpha...cannot possibly be sustained for a lifetime. You're going to get sick of pretending to be what you're not. 

So, my take is... The whole Alpha / Beta argument is just so much horse manure. Because it confuses or perhaps just mixes gaming or manipulation into good advice to develop maturity. 

I'll never be Alpha. I have not the personality. This I know. But it doesn't mean I can't undo bad habits.. make new ones, that have to do with maturity and proper behavior in relationships. 

And if I lose my wife because I don't exude sex appeal at a gutteral level... I don't want her anyway. There will always be someone more "equipped" in that department, and if she's unable to maintain fidelity... Then it's just a matter of time, no matter what I pretend to be or not be. 

Perhaps this allusion is best dropped, and instead, a more profound listing and analysis of what makes a good relationship,aside from sex appeal, would end in far greater understanding.


----------



## Deejo

When it comes down to it, I have no issue with those that poo-poo, this whole notion.

It's fine.

I used to do the same.

But, I am curious if those who vehemently disagree with the overall concepts of Man Up, Alpha, Beta, and Nice Guy, have actually read any of the threads posted by the audience for whom these concepts are intended?

Because, quite obviously, they are not intended for you if you feel good about yourself, your wife loves and respects you, and you are getting laid like tile ...

So, here is a link to the poster child thread for the kind of man, and the kind of circumstances I am referring to. Username is pretty self-explanatory. And to be clear, I am suggesting that you pay attention to what the OP says and does ... rather than the respondents. 

And no, I'm not suggesting that anyone read the entire thread. Hell, it's bigger than this one.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21806-ea-already-moving-towards-pa.html


----------



## lovelygirl

SimplyAmorous said:


> I have a friend like yourself .... I give you a word of caution.... make damn sure that his ALPHA is balanced with some GOOD BETA too....you don't want too much ALPHA in a man lacking the other.
> 
> My beautiful blonde GF from high school was suckered in by one who ooozed ALPHA appeal... but underneath that... Beta was hard to come by......she was so TURNED ON by him (gorgeous , Killer Job, Funny, women round about him, oh yeah)...she lost all her senses....they married... he cheated on her time & time again... she divorced him ....(Messy costly custody battle from hell )....it was so bad, she took her maiden name again....
> 
> THEN ...oh the power of the ALPHA MALE...he lured himself back into her bed....I was there watching him PLAY with her emotions, trusting him again, LIE after LIE after LIE, never returning her calls...More cheating.....
> 
> Finally out of his grasp... now she has lost both her sons to this man who makes so much $$ & is such a JERK off - she is near ruined, every man she meets is TOXIC - she expects betrayal, it sabotaged her last relationship... She is broken & alone now . I don't think she is able to trust another man....she needs therapy....it is the saddest thing ever. (He was married 3 times -cheated on every wife)....
> 
> Oh the value of finding a man *Balanced* in these traits. Never overlook this. You desire one tipped MORE ALPHA..that's fine....but do not withhold the BETA, or you will be one miserable woman later on. I speak this as one who has seen 2 marriages go this route.


As I previously said in this thread, *balance* is the key.
I'm not talking about selfish, arrogant, jerk Alphas. 

I'm talking about Alphas who have enough self-respect, who are confident [but not overly-confident] and have the balls to stick to their words/actions accordingly. 

Extreme Betaness/Alphaness is never healthy. Nor for the person who has these traits nor for the relationship they're in.


----------



## Caribbean Man

lovelygirl said:


> I'm talking about Alphas who have enough self-respect, who are confident [but not overly-confident] and have the balls to stick to their words/actions accordingly.
> 
> *Extreme Betaness/Alphaness is never healthy. Nor for the person who has these traits nor for the relationship they're in.*



:iagree:
I think this concept is so simple.

I would compare it to a NOS [ Nitric Oxide System ] that drag racers use in their cars, to temporarily improve the performance of their engines.
Applied at the right time and in the right amounts, it gives the driver an edge in the race. His timing is perfect, he wins.

Applied at the wrong time and in too high amounts, he will loose both the race and possibly, _his life_

Balance is the key in everything.

The simple, common sense rule of thumb is, 
_Apply in the required dosage only when needed._


----------



## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> * Nevertheless The whole point of the alpha-up exercise is for guys who don't have enough of the dark triad on their bell curve to add some of the milder behaviors to their standard beta/delta behaviors from time to time in order to maintain attraction.* It's not necessary to truly become a Machiavellian psychopath in order to get laid like Machiavelli.


:iagree:

If it does NOT apply to your situation, then don't use it.
But you must first understand the state of your marriage. 

Lots of men adapt the " ostrich approach " to their relationships, and then they are completely blindsided by a sexless marriage, a walk away wife , an affair or some other delima that turn their lives upside down.
But every situation is different.
The Alpha, man up concept does NOT apply in every case.

If a man's body is low on testosterone,there are simple things he can do to boost test production, without taking pills or injections.

If a man is low on self confidence and the other manly traits that supports it, there are simple things he can, and _must_ do to boost it...,
Because there are no pills , injections or supplements that can give
_self confidence._


----------



## Dollystanford

Chumpless said:


> Almost 11,000 posts, and you're still debating? Why?


it's the thread that just refuses to lay down and die. Does that make it alpha?


----------



## Amyd

Dollystanford said:


> it's the thread that just refuses to lay down and die. Does that make it alpha?


I don't think there is such a thing as alpha or beta men but this thread is entertaining.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Chumpless said:


> Almost 11,000 posts, and you're still debating? Why?


Because,

"*...Wise men argue cases, fools decide them...."*
Anacharasis.


----------



## jaquen

oldgeezer said:


> Just an observation... This alpha / beta discussion goes on and on, round and round... And what I get from it, is that those who subscribe to this are of the belief that women are inherently incapable of self control, and that they will, no matter what, break their relationship to seek the "alpha male" they desire. And if you're not the alpha male, then you have to become one, or your marriage / relationship / sex life / etc is simply a charade, played out until the woman gets bored and wants more excitement.
> 
> In men, they call this "mid life crisis" and it's an identity problem - we're not who we think we are, and we suddenly have to prove to the world we're still relevant, attractive, desirable, masculine...
> 
> But yet, the MLC is particularly relevant to only a small fraction of the population. And supposedly the true Alphas are 1/10 of the population.
> 
> The numbers don't work out. Lots more than that stay married.


Exactly. The numbers do not work out. At all.

Great post on this topic, one based in actual reality.


----------



## In Absentia

Caribbean Man said:


> Because,
> 
> "*...Wise men argue cases, fools decide them...."*
> Anacharasis.


I thought alpha males didn't waste time arguing... and made all the decisions... :smthumbup:


----------



## Machiavelli

Chumpless said:


> Forget Machiavelli. He was a "boot licking, wannabe, sado-masicistic, narcissistic" royal scumbag. Pardon the words.
> 
> I'd rather be a monk with values than a POS elitest getting all the poontang in the world stomping on everybody below him.


You don't know sh!t about Machiavelli.


----------



## Machiavelli

BookOfJob said:


> From Machiavelli:
> 
> 
> From Wikipedia (Dark Triad):
> 
> 
> Maybe "more sex partners" does not necessarily mean "most women are attracted to". The quote from Wiki in underline kind of explains it.


People at the top tend to be dark triad personalities. FDR, JFK, BJ Clinton for some easy examples. These attitudes can lead to wealth and power. And you know Kissinger's quote on that. It's true.

All men, not just dark triad, have a lower attraction threshold for ONS women. A good example of this is the Duke Slvt (although those guys are pretty much in the dark triad most likely).

In any case the Pareto Principle still applies: 80/20.


----------



## Halien

I haven't read this thread for a really long time (which may not be a good thing for a moderator to admit ), but I think there is a key, yet very subtle, element that many are missing. We're lumping a number of things into the term 'alpha', both external and internal to us, and I think that it would be more helpful to discuss what it means internally. I know that some will possibly disagree, and say that I'm talking about something else, but even if you think about it for illulstrative purposes only, it may help. Guys, the whole alpha/beta scale is a continuum that is only relevant within ourself. It does no good to say, "Look, Jack is more alpha, and he does this, so I am going to do the same thing in my quest to be alpha". Numerous detractors in the real world would resist the whole topic when it seems to be suggested that they, or their spouse, must meet standards set by other in order to be more alpha. That's why I cautioned the OP in my last post not to compare is results to his wife's response. 

Granted, if you feel so lost, and find yourself so full of doubt that you are just living life completely under the direction of your spouse, or just have no direction at all, it can be helpful to look to others to see how their individual actions compare to yours. You may even feel so invisible as an individual in your marriage that you want one of the books often mentioned here, but these books are only good to the point where they let you start seeing yourself honestly again, and your full potential as an individual. A woman might think that her husband would be labelled as beta by some alpha types, but if her husband finds his path through life with full confidence that he is being true to himself, he is a strong man, and those books should be useless to him.

Deejo alluded to a big problem that leads many men to the desire to learn more about the whole alpha subject, in the right context. He talked about men who realize that they've lost themselves to a 'nice guy' mentality, and lost their connection to who they really are. One of the men who talked to us young boys in the Creek community where I grew up said that two-spirit's greatest victory in a man's life was when he made you forget that he existed. Two-spirt, in this context, represents the darker part of our inner spirit, a blacker wolf spirit of fear, laziness, indecision, and our weakest traits. If we feed his half-brother, the stronger half-spirit of courage, integrity and character, it will grow. A childhood tale for native american boys, indeed, but it only illustrates that the subject here is about inner awareness of our own actions, and taking full control for what we do in everyday life. Knowing that actions have consequences, and owning them. Being 'alpha' is having the courage to own our life, and every action within it, resisting the tendencey to procrastinate, face troubles in our relationship. It's about taking leadership in every way we can to make our marriage and relationships stronger.

Turn 'alpha' into a measure, where men's results are compared against each other, and you've lost the point of the whole discussion in a self-help context. Really, we may describe a man or woman as being alpha in the relationship or workplace, but the important part of this discussion is inward, describing their tendency to move forward through every problem they face, and not let fear or indecision lead to procrastination. 

It is a continual self-awareness that can apply to us all, although it should become instinctive. I work in a career where those who consistently stay on top of the complex details of their business get promoted faster. I've had periods where I had to kick myself into gear, and be a better leader to my team. The same applies to fulfilling my part of our marriage spirit, having the courage to avoid procrastination and indecision, to keep things vital, and alive. I don't want to overstate the subject, though. You can become more self-aware of the negative influences in your life without turning this into a big deal. And yes, two people who are committed to inner growth may end up worlds apart in their influence over others, but both are the result of honest assessments of their inner goals and aptitudes.


----------



## that_girl

Amg. Halien, I love you. Well, i love that post. Awesome. 

Basically, there should be a yin/yang WITHIN a person.... Ahhh, grasshopper can learn...


----------



## Deejo

Dollystanford said:


> it's the thread that just refuses to lay down and die. Does that make it alpha?


No, it just makes the topic almost ... but not nearly as popular as threesomes and penis size.


----------



## Dollystanford

anal must be in there surely?


----------



## Deejo

Dollystanford said:


> anal must be in there surely?


Hell, why not.


----------



## Machiavelli

oldgeezer said:


> But yet, the MLC is particularly relevant to only a small fraction of the population. And supposedly the true Alphas are 1/10 of the population.
> 
> The numbers don't work out. Lots more than that stay married.





jaquen said:


> Exactly. The numbers do not work out. At all.


Real aphas are more likely only around 5% of males. And the numbers do work out. Just because a woman may sample some alpha from time to time doesn't meant she gets a divorce from her beta provider husband. *Three quarters* of couples involved in outright discovered adultery stay married. Hell, the AMC probably doesn't know and isn't going to know. The "experts" say the vast majority of cheating wife action goes undiscovered, so the average man will have no idea his wife is getting occasional alpha injections unless she gets addicted, stupid, or guilty. Remember that old Roissy bromide: "Five minutes of alpha is worth 5 years of Beta," (or Delta if you prefer).

This is why almost all human societies since the dawn of time were polygynous and even the "monogamous" ones only expected legal monogamy, not practical monogamy.


----------



## Machiavelli

that_girl said:


> *Amg.* Halien, I love you. Well, i love that post. Awesome.
> 
> Basically, there should be a yin/yang WITHIN a person.... Ahhh, grasshopper can learn...


AMG, huh? See? It's the women who decide.


----------



## that_girl

Machiavelli said:


> AMG, huh? See? It's the women who decide.


Amg=omg. Just a different way to say it.

And :rofl: at the woman who decides.

It makes sense to have both things inside you. I'm sure the pendulum swings slightly extreme for men trying to get back their own power etc.

But I decided nothing. I have no control over what you think or believe.


----------



## Machiavelli

that_girl said:


> Amg=omg. Just a different way to say it.
> 
> And :rofl: at the woman who decides.
> 
> It makes sense to have both things inside you. I'm sure the pendulum swings slightly extreme for men trying to get back their own power etc.
> 
> But I decided nothing. I have no control over what you think or believe.


I thought you were decreeing Halien as the Alpha Male of Group. And yes, women do pick which males are alpha.


----------



## BjornFree

Machiavelli said:


> I thought you were decreeing Halien as the Alpha Male of Group. And yes, women do pick which males are alpha.


So you're saying that the social hierarchy of males are decided by the ladies? Or is it that the interactions between the male decide who is alpha and that females just pick up on the scent.


----------



## oldgeezer

Machiavelli said:


> Real aphas are more likely only around 5% of males. And the numbers do work out. Just because a woman may sample some alpha from time to time doesn't meant she gets a divorce from her beta provider husband. *Three quarters* of couples involved in outright discovered adultery stay married. Hell, the AMC probably doesn't know and isn't going to know. The "experts" say the vast majority of cheating wife action goes undiscovered, so the average man will have no idea his wife is getting occasional alpha injections unless she gets addicted, stupid, or guilty. Remember that old Roissy bromide: "Five minutes of alpha is worth 5 years of Beta," (or Delta if you prefer).
> 
> This is why almost all human societies since the dawn of time were polygynous and even the "monogamous" ones only expected legal monogamy, not practical monogamy.


And you confirm my original premise, that some of this whole discussion is a firm belief that women ( in general, as a whole ) cannot keep their legs closed and are slaves to male sexual attraction. 

I don't subscribe to this theory... But I do subscribe to the one that says that a small segment of the male population does think this way, and it's related to the way they view the world of females as their possession. They have an evolution constructed right to the p***y of their choice. 

You proved my point in other ways as well. For instance, the incidence of adultery (especially serial adultery) by women isn't as high as you try to make it seem. Just like the "half of all marriages end in divorce"... That's true, but the percentages of MARRIED COUPLES who end in divorce is MUCH smaller. The numbers are generated by serial married / divorced people who are much smaller in number, but marry and divorce 2 or more times. 

I do believe that there are definitely a smallish number of women who do not have a loyalty to their mate - even though they chose them. And they will cheat on an alpha, as well. And while the partner may not know about the cheating spouse (it works both ways), the incidence of long term marriage combined with infidelity is almost zero. And the odds are that a cheating spouse will sabotage their next marriage and even the one after that, if they manage to ever reach it. 

None of this proves anything like your original assertions, and anyone with minor analytical skills knows it. 

Again, as I said in my original premise, we would ALL be served by a better "how to" manual on making marriage work, and both men and women individually would be better served by chucking the Alpha and Beta labels and start focusing on the behavior characteristics that make us mature, responsible, and successful adults. 

I contend that the focus on the labels is more of an ego trip by certain people who find that they have certain qualities that makes it easy for them to attract others and thus find little use for the qualities that make that a healthy relationship based on true and respectful qualities, rather than on guttural appeal. 

Nowhere in this do I say that the labelled "ranking" types don't exist... they do, but the labels are assigned to observed status, not to what actually creates success beyond mere attraction and social / sexual ranking.


----------



## Gangland

Machiavelli said:


> I thought you were decreeing Halien as the Alpha Male of Group. And yes, women do pick which males are alpha.


Women don't pick who is alpha... Males do. Women respond to who they can tell is alpha based on the male social hierarchy.

In other words, males will establish who is dominant regardless of if females are involved based on a meritocracy, shaming tactics etc. If you've ever been the coach of a football team or played football yourself and been in the guys locker room you can see this first hand. Guys will towel slap, challenge each others masculinity through (sorry but it's true) homosexual meme's, arm wrestle etc, each one seeking to take his claim on in a certain spot on the hierarchy. From little league all the way up to college (my experience only goes that far but I'm positive it's this way in the pros)

Women respond to that already established hierarchy, which is why the quarterback, who is usually the alpha of his team, usually gets the good looking cheer leader and all the babes lolz.

However Jaqueen, to say that women cannot control themselves around the alpha, even though your H is a beta, is not true, of course they can. The same way you can control yourself from banging that hot young secretary even though your wife is old and grey. 

But would it not be a smart move for the wife if you told her, get in shape, dress better, etc? Not so "He doesn't cheat on you with that young secretary" but for a better marriage, better sex, more attraction. PERIOD. 

You're only hangup from what I can tell is that, because the male is not really focusing on changing the physical like a wife would need to do, It's wrong.

But the only reason that is, is because women care less about the physical. If they were just attracted to the physical, then "Alpha" wouldn't even exist. People would just say, stay the same, and try and look better.

In other words, a male alpha-ing up is the same as a female, looking better. If your woman all of the sudden got hotter, trust me you would respond to her differently, it's the same thing.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Caribbean Man said:


> So for the unfortunate guy who does not want a divorce, and has a controlling, disrespectful wife. What can he do?


I'm still looking for some useful discussion on this topic. There are a lot of men in this situation and they have a lot of trouble in their marriages. Many women think they are helping themselves with these behaviors (maybe they are) and who cares what their man think or feel, they deserve it anyway. Many of us are in crisis. What should we do?


----------



## BjornFree

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I'm still looking for some useful discussion on this topic. There are a lot of men in this situation and they have a lot of trouble in their marriages. Many women think they are helping themselves with these behaviors (maybe they are) and who cares what their man think or feel, they deserve it anyway. Many of us are in crisis. What should we do?


Become the Alpha. Err....Man Up. Cut the Beta out. Implement MMSL and NMMNG Roissy etc etc etc

But first , ask yourself why you want to be married to a controlling selfish wife and why you put up with her behavior. What benefit do you have by being in this marriage?


----------



## BjornFree

Gangland said:


> Women don't pick who is alpha... Males do. Women respond to who they can tell is alpha based on the male social hierarchy.


What happens when the male refuses to be a part of the group deciding who's the alpha?


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

oldgeezer said:


> this whole discussion is a firm belief that women ( in general, as a whole ) cannot keep their legs closed and are slaves to male sexual attraction.


Yes, depending on the man and his level of attractiveness. That's why society has a bunch of rules and laws and social conventions otherwise everything would fall into complete chaos (or at least paralysis) while all the women lined up for the few top guys and everybody else stayed home and did nothing because they weren't getting any,


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

BjornFree said:


> Become the Alpha. Err....Man Up. Cut the Beta out. Implement MMSL and NMMNG Roissy etc etc etc
> 
> But first , ask yourself why you want to be married to a controlling selfish wife and why you put up with her behavior. What benefit do you have by being in this marriage?


Free babysitting at the very least. One of my mentors says that controlling behavior is a natural result of a woman's need for emotional stability and disrespect is so rampant in our culture that it is almost ubiquitous. Any woman called out on being disrespectful can honestly say "What's the problem here, everyone else is doing it".


----------



## that_girl

:rofl: that's kinda true! I can see people thinking that way.


----------



## BjornFree

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Free babysitting at the very least


And cooking and housekeeping. Lots of benefits there.


----------



## Gangland

oldgeezer said:


> Nowhere in this do I say that the labelled "ranking" types don't exist... they do, but the labels are assigned to observed status, not to what actually creates success beyond mere attraction and social / sexual ranking.


You are undermining attraction's role in a successful marriage. Now I'm certainly not saying that it's the end all be all, because truly nothing is, but to say that upping ones attraction (and for males this partly means going up in the social hierarchy) is not the way to go is foolish.

Most of the time, the reason why disrespect happens in a marriage isn't just because some random luck of the draw. It's because the person is responding to how you let them treat you. If your attractiveness goes up, in other words your value as a mate goes up, respect naturally follows because people respect the things they value and don't want to lose.

The reason the alpha/beta thing is the go to is because, well the **** works. It truly does. It's not going to work on all marriages no. but even if it doesn't, the person has then improved him self and can go find someone who values that.

Also, as I said above, raising your status objectively does work for raising your attractiveness. but when most people prescribe alpha they are talking about the behavior, not an actual place on the pole. Women respond to the behavior of an alpha, Someone who is high on the status pole acts a certain way. Like how a celebrity is calm and unaffected while the fan is jumping around screaming.

While women won't start screaming and jumping around, they WILL respond. they have no control over it. The same way you have no control over the way you feel when you hear a woman make "THAT moaning, sound" Sure you won't jump her bones. But if there was already some attraction (which in a marriage there had better be) you'll think about it. THAT's exactly the way you want your wife thinking about YOU. That's why I believe it leads to a better marriage.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

BjornFree said:


> And cooking and housekeeping. Lots of benefits there.


That would be nice if you can get it. Laundry is a big help


----------



## BjornFree

Ten_year_hubby said:


> That would be nice if you can get it. Laundry is a big help


Yep. Nothing gets you hooked to a girl like fresh supply of clean underwear.


----------



## jaquen

Gangland said:


> However Jaqueen, to say that women cannot control themselves around the alpha, even though your H is a beta, is not true, of course they can.


When did I say this?



Gangland said:


> You're only hangup from what I can tell is that, because the male is not really focusing on changing the physical like a wife would need to do, It's wrong.


Again, what are you talking about? That's not my hangup, never mind my "only" one.



Gangland said:


> But the only reason that is, is because women care less about the physical. If they were just attracted to the physical, then "Alpha" wouldn't even exist.


Not my experience. At all. As a kid/teen I was the big, fat, quintessential "nice guy"-doormat when it came to women.

Lost a ton of weight in my late teens/early 20's, became what many said was a "hot guy", started getting hit on and approached by scorchingly hot ladies. I was still the shy, screwed up fat kid on the inside, because I lost the weight/got in shape super fast and my mind didn't get a chance to catch up. Same guy, same issues, same temperament, way different reaction from the opposite (and some same) sex.

In my personal experience women care FAR more about looks than most men want to acknowledge.


----------



## Gangland

jaquen said:


> When did I say this?


I should've put you AND Oldgeezer. You never said this.. but you quoted and agreed. "Women can't keep there legs closed." So I took that as you effectively saying it. My apologies.


jaquen said:


> Again, what are you talking about? That's not my hangup, never mind my "only" one.


I say that's your hangup because you're against a man changing. you want him to "be himself" and not have to do something "out of his nature." Were these not your words?


----------



## Gangland

Also, I totally agree that women do care about the physically. but they are no where near as affected by it as men are. 

If you went from fat kid to in shape you're damn right you're going to get more looks and dates. 

But it's no where near our level. We see hot chicks and immediately want to bang them. We can tell right there we want to make babies. It takes little more than that. We may not act on it, but it's there. If she's hot, we could care less about her social status, we could care less about her economic status, we could care less about her assertiveness, and we damn sure don't care about her dominance amongst other females.

But for women it's not so. They get the initial "I think he's hot" but they need more... because making babies is a lot more of investment for them, they need to know he can provide, protect, etc... not necessarily that he WILL but that he can. And so these behaviors are attractive to them, because that's how they determine such things.

So while the physical is important, it's not the only thing that's important and can't be changed as easily. so people focus on Alpha-ness or what can be changed to raise ones attractivness.


----------



## Gangland

BjornFree said:


> What happens when the male refuses to be a part of the group deciding who's the alpha?


That's what the other classes are for. Omega's reject the hierarchy. They are not always sexless.. they just don't always get the best mates.


----------



## BjornFree

Gangland said:


> That's what the other classes are for. Omega's reject the hierarchy. They are not always sexless.. they just don't always get the best mates.


Run us through the various other classes. So far I know alpha and beta.


----------



## jaquen

Gangland said:


> I say that's your hangup because you're against a man changing. you want him to "be himself" and not have to do something "out of his nature." Were these not your words?


My argument isn't now, nor has it ever been, about change. I am a _huge_ advocate of personal change. I have undergone incredible metamorphosis in my own life, and continue to.

My gripe is with the notion that you can boil down complex human beings into a list of prescribed traits on a chart, a generalized idea of what a man "should" be, and then ask legions of people to adapt those traits. It's a load of crap, and potentially very dangerous if misapplied. 

We need to have the guts, balls, and courage to take introspective looks inside and begin to ascertain who we _really_ are. For example, I use to be an overly nice guy. I don't think being a "nice guy" is a flaw whatsoever; I know quite a few "nice guys" who have no trouble whatsoever being open, honest, free men who are confident, and who have NO TROUBLE attracting, and keeping, women. At all. However I knew, even as a young teen, that my nice, non-confrontational, and overly accommodating attitude, was a complete sham. I was very introspective even as a child, and I knew it was born out of extreme low self esteem, and body images; I was a fat kid who felt like living in that fat body was _hell on Earth_. I did, and still do, cherish treating people well, women and men alike, and being patient, long suffering, and kind. But I am no longer Mr. Nice Guy because, for ME, that boy/man was a falsehood. He didn't feel right, true, or good. He was a lie.

However if you take one of my genuinely nice guy friends, the ones that TAM swears are vagina-challenged losers who need to "man up", and try and squeeze them into a prescribed, and incredibly limited, "alpha box", you would effectively be aiding them in getting rid of some of their best traits. My very best friend, who is the nicest human being I've ever met in my life, other than my wife, is, by nature, and nurture, that way. This man is quintessential "beta". This man has also had no trouble, at all, attracting and enjoying the company of some incredibly sexy, beautiful women.

Yet recently he briefly dated a woman who he thought things went well with. But he stopped hearing from her, which was surprising to him. He contacted her a few times to find out what was up. She eventually got back to him and said basically that she had a good time, but that he's too nice for her. He was super upset about that for a few weeks.

Now lets say this same man, my very best friend, came to TAM during his low moment. He talks about how he was rejected for being Mr. Nice Guy. He would inevitably be told to "man up", get more "alpha", subscribed the standard reading material, and cheered on to change his core personality. This is not to say that all TAMers on the NMMNG bandwagon would do this, but this kind of reaction is typical here.

But the problem here is simple; his authentic self rocks. His authentic self, Mr. Nice Guy, has attracted some pretty incredible, and hot, women (doesn't hurt that he's a good looking guy). He's had plenty of sex partners, and a couple really great long term relationships with sexy, intelligent women. It would be absolutely detrimental if the typical TAM subscription was shoved down his throat all because SOME women, and in this case one woman, are repulsed by genuine nice guys. Where as he should be told to phuck that one girl, and be reminded that he's had no trouble attracting incredible women just as he is, the mandate would be to tell this great human being that he is flawed, and that he needs to change ASAP. That would be horrible advice.

Teach people to embrace who they authentically are. It will never fail you. It weeds out the people who will NEVER be attracted to the real you, but it will attract people who genuinely "see" who you are.

I know this. I see this as a man with a ton of male friends, _*and a nice number of female ones too*_, people with radically vary in temperament and personality. 

Which brings up another issue entirely. Not enough of the men of TAM have true, real, non-sexual relationships with women. The way women are spoken of on this board, in general, reeks of men who are anemic in relationship to women as fellow human beings. Lots of talk of women as potential sex objects, and mates, very little understanding, or insight, about women full, fleshed out, three dimensional, radically varying, complex human beings.

In summary, some of you don't know jack sh*t about women.


----------



## Gangland

BjornFree said:


> Run us through the various other classes. So far I know alpha and beta.


The way I understand it. The it goes like this

Alpha: These are the top of the hierarchy. They are attractive, because they are the strongest, they have access to resources, and a lot of times they have good genes. They are considered jerks because they tend to have a lot of options. Because they have a lot of options some options will inevitably not be chosen. Like a celebrity who doesn't return your phone call because he has millions of calls. (one of the things they tell you to mimmick if you're upping the alpha... at least in pickup.) Think quarterback, or a Linebacker like Ray Lewis. Not the attitude as these guys are stars but just their spot on the team.

Beta: These guys aren't as bad as their reps suggest. They can take the place of the alpha should they defeat him or he leaves the group. They also have access to resources, and are pretty strong themselves. Think Running back, or wide receiver, cornerbacks, and even some linemen. They still get the babes. but they aren't Tom Brady. They tend to be a little submissive because as beta's they have to listen to the Quaterback.

Delta: These are the guys most people say are beta. They are the nice guy doormats, They are submissive to both betas and Alphas, They get some girls, but the lowest class, or they get friendzoned, or "I love you but I'm not in love with you'd" On the team, they don't play much, think 2nd or most of the time 3rd string. Nobody even really knows who they are. But they're still in the game every once in a while.

Omega: this is the lowest class. These guys don't just reject the system. They outright hate it. These guys almost never get laid, These are the guys that reject society outright. Complete nerds who end up shooting schools and movie theaters up for no reason other than the fact that society has also shunnedd them.

Think of they nerds in school who aren't even on the team or in any other social group really either. They hate the football players because they get the babes etc.


There's also another class some call Sigma, These are the guys who don't reject the system, they acknowledge it and respect it. they just don't play, and they STILL get laid. This is usually what happens when someone is an Alpha but is introverted so they don't really care for group dynamics.

Think of that interloper guy who doesn't really belong to any group or go out much but he still gets the girls.

None of these are permanent. and nobody is any one of these all the time and in every situation. but those are the classes as I understand them.


----------



## Gangland

jaquen said:


> My argument isn't now, nor has it ever been, about change. I am a _huge_ advocate of personal change. I have undergone incredible metamorphosis in my own life, and continue to.
> 
> My gripe is with the notion that you can boil down complex human beings into a list of prescribed traits on a chart, a generalized idea of what a man "should" be, and then ask legions of people to adapt those traits. It's a load of crap, and potentially very dangerous if misapplied.
> 
> We need to have the guts, balls, and courage to take introspective looks inside and begin to ascertain who we _really_ are. For example, I use to be an overly nice guy. I don't think being a "nice guy" is a flaw whatsoever; I know quite a few "nice guys" who have no trouble whatsoever being open, honest, free men who are confident, and who have NO TROUBLE attracting, and keeping, women. At all. However I knew, even as a young teen, that my nice, non-confrontational, and overly accommodating attitude, was a complete sham. I was very introspective even as a child, and I knew it was born out of extreme low self esteem, and body images; I was a fat kid who felt like living in that fat body was _hell on Earth_. I did, and still do, cherish treating people well, women and men alike, and being patient, long suffering, and kind. But I am no longer Mr. Nice Guy because, for ME, that boy/man was a falsehood. He didn't feel right, true, or good. He was a lie.
> 
> However if you take one of my genuinely nice guy friends, the ones that TAM swears are vagina-challenged losers who need to "man up", and try and squeeze them into a prescribed, and incredibly limited, "alpha box", you would effectively be aiding them in getting rid of some of their best traits. My very best friend, who is the nicest human being I've ever met in my life, other than my wife, is, by nature, and nurture, that way. This man is quintessential "beta". This man has also had no trouble, at all, attracting and enjoying the company of some incredibly sexy, beautiful women.
> 
> Yet recently he briefly dated a woman who he thought things went well with. But he stopped hearing from her, which was surprising to him. He contacted her a few times to find out what was up. She eventually got back to him and said basically that she had a good time, but that he's too nice for her. He was super upset about that for a few weeks.
> 
> Now lets say this same man, my very best friend, came to TAM during his low moment. He talks about how he was rejected for being Mr. Nice Guy. He would inevitably be told to "man up", get more "alpha", subscribed the standard reading material, and cheered on to change his core personality. This is not to say that all TAMers on the NMMNG bandwagon would do this, but this kind of reaction is typical here.
> 
> But the problem here is simple; his authentic self rocks. His authentic self, Mr. Nice Guy, has attracted some pretty incredible, and hot, women (doesn't hurt that he's a good looking guy). He's had plenty of sex partners, and a couple really great long term relationships with sexy, intelligent women. It would be absolutely detrimental if the typical TAM subscription was shoved down his throat all because SOME women, and in this case one woman, are repulsed by genuine nice guys. Where as he should be told to phuck that one girl, and be reminded that he's had no trouble attracting incredible women just as he is, the mandate would be to tell this great human being that he is flawed, and that he needs to change ASAP. That would be horrible advice.
> 
> Teach people to embrace who they authentically are. It will never fail you. It weeds out the people who will NEVER be attracted to the real you, but it will attract people who genuinely "see" who you are.
> 
> I know this. I see this as a man with a ton of male friends, _*and a nice number of female ones too*_, people with radically vary in temperament and personality.
> 
> Which brings up another issue entirely. Not enough of the men of TAM have true, real, non-sexual relationships with women. The way women are spoken of on this board, in general, reeks of men who are anemic in relationship to women as fellow human beings. Lots of talk of women as potential sex objects, and mates, very little understanding, or insight, about women full, fleshed out, three dimensional, radically varying, complex human beings.
> 
> In summary, some of you don't know jack sh*t about women.


I think I understand what you're saying a lot better after that post so thank you. and I can see how the Alpha thing would rub you the wrong way.

Women are complex beings, tis true, everyone acknowledges that. 

but genetically we haven't gotten above the ability to change what we're attracted to... note that though the amount of attractiveness to certain things is slightly different person to person. The things they are attracted to are essentially the same. The world over men are attracted a breast to hip ratio of 7.0, smiling symmetrical faces as opposed to their opposite, skinny as opposed to fat etc. So it's not a mistake to generalize when you speak of what men like.

Same goes for women, yes they are human beings and make their own choices. but whats attractive to them is attractive to the majority of them. So telling someone who is by his own admission having problems being attractive enough to get this one girl to stay(buy posting about it on a forum)to become more attractive to the general population of mates, I can't see how it's a bad thing.

Most of the time they prescribe this (at least in my experience) it's because he's willingly admitted to letting some girl completely disrespect him and he doesn't see it. He's still being nice and letting her get away with it. In the case you mentioned, They'd prescribe it because he admitted he was too nice. If he wants that particular girl, It's obvious what he has to do. If he wants a different girl, He may not have to change, but since the majority of girls are attracted to the same thing it couldn't hurt.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

BjornFree said:


> Yep. Nothing gets you hooked to a girl like fresh supply of clean underwear.


Well as important as my stuff is to me, it's her doing the kid's clothes that really makes a difference. On my own, I would have to gather up all their clothes and sheets and towels and take them off someplace to get done, pick it all up after work and put it all away. There is a substantial amount of work being done here and I am very grateful to have someone to help.


----------



## that_girl

lol All this talk about 'girls'. Yet we call the males 'men'. Just a peeve of mine. carry on.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jaquen said:


> He is THE MAN...with SA. SA has made it perfectly clear that her husband didn't change so much as she went through a metamorphosis herself and began to truly appreciate him (on the sexual front). SA has been the one who has undergone an incredible change from the more conservative, closed off woman she was. *Because, contrary to all of this talk about men being the man ingredient, SA shows us that women discovering themselves is just as imperative in this process. *


 I feel strongly about this :smthumbup: The wife has a role in this too... to seek to understand & bare with her man. If she just goes behind his back ...even if he has lost his way....shouldn't we be there to pick up each other's fall....if she goes off spreading her legs for Mr Excitement... what does this say about her. 



jaquen said:


> Get his balls back enough to leave her ass and find his SA.
> 
> That's my point. If Mr. SA was married to someone else and came here to TAM he would be told he's too beta, and that he needs to change. The default would be to get an already great guy to alter his core self in order to be stronger for his mate.
> 
> When the truth of the matter is that Mr. SA would need to drop that harpy of a wife/fiance/girlfriend, and find a woman who truly loves, cherishes, and gets him.
> 
> We don't seem to have a lot of respect on this board for the Mr. SA's of the world. But if the Mr. SA's would find pride in who they were, they wouldn't compromise to be with women who will NEVER appreciate them.
> 
> TAM is filled with men who are with women they should _never_ have been with.





> SA has a great guy. But if SA were a different person, or he was married to a far less appreciative, centered, open woman, than that same man would come to TAM and be told he needed to become an "alpha". Or his wife would come in, complain about him being too beta, and SA's great guy would become the new pariah of TAM.


 I could see this very easily....and it would be the case of a Great man matched with a cold heartless bi*ch...who doesn't realize what she has. I'd be the 1st in line saying to leave her a$$, get tough... to gain her he has to be willing to loose her...But these guys are difficult...they put family before themselves, it's in their protective nature very very deep. 

When I seen *In Absenthia*'s posts - I just wanted to say something... it bothers me when others automatically assume a man has not manned up ENOUGH - just because he voices he is more BETA over ALPHA...& how he has chosen to deal with the situation..... like this is a mortal sin.. he automatically has not done enough... he needs to get with the program. 

I bet their are many men on here not man enough to admit they are more Beta... wanting to appear something they are not....cause the label is touted as more praise worthy. Could it be that Mr Absentia is just a little more honest & humble on himself ? 

Jaquen- I especially want to







for some of your posts on here ...I feel they were very understanding of men like my husband...and I very much appreciate that.












> Which is why I advocate men, regardless of temperament, to find self acceptance, be proud of, and OWN, who he truly is, and then find a woman who can see, appreciate, and adore that.


 Of course I feel the same. 




BjornFree said:


> But you previously described such a man as being single for the rest of his life. Why are you contradicting your own statements now? How would MrSA have known that SA was not a devious controlling woman before marriage? Why do you assume that Mr SA would stay with such a woman?


 I guess he took a risk,didn't he. We dated over 7 yrs, he knew me inside & out. He has told me, had he not met me, he might have ever married, because he wasn't going to settle . Why it worked for us.. I showed him my vulnerabilities early on, he knew my SOFT side... believe me I have a mean streak in me ~ when I get .... but I am also just as soft, had I not shown him this....he would not have fallen in love with me. You might say I have some of the same hang ups as the Alpha's dark side.... impatience, demanding, brash, strong willed..... but LYING , cheating and sleeping with a Philandering Alpha ain't on that list. 



Machiavelli said:


> You understand. Alpha traits are generally dark triad.


 And I







for giving me this much credit. 



> What everyone on here forgets is that the women pick the sexual Alphas.


 I just happen to think most women don't know what is good for them, they don't think any straighter than the men who are ruled by their di*ks. 

What I find* pathetic *is these Good men who marry these women who screwed all these Players in their youth trying to win them... they were never wanted in the 1st place (just used-but that was OK too, they were loving it)... then they settle for a GOOD hearted Family man (I will say tipped Beta - cause for me, he is preferable- I am allowed my opinion).....then she grows bored with him... instead of working with him, appreciating the good..... she pines for another Alpha male....another marriage destroyed... 

I am on the bandwagon to warn these men to never marry these types of women. Yes, take pride in who they are & not settle for less - they too have a right to be looking for a quality female -that deserves them. 

Our 3rd son is introverted (of course this = Beta).....what he has going for him is he is good looking... a cheerleader wanted him (imagine that- he doesn't even play football!)..... after 7 months she was tempted elsewhere...she is HOT - lots of choices .... (actually a misunderstanding between them)...

Thankfully.... he had enough *self respect* to dump her.. Now she is coming around again (single again-she even told him before he was the nicest bf she ever had)... she wants him back... He still really cares for her...but isn't jumping (listening to his Mother).... she was over here the other day....She opened up to me...got a chance to talk about different types of Boys...it was a great conversation. 

I know my son ISN'T going to lay down who he is for this girl... she will either like him for him or shove it. He isn't a game player. He even said that to me one day....."Mom, I'm not a player"....when I suggested he needs to get out there, kiss as many girls as he can, that way other women will want him. (Can you imagine your Mother saying [email protected]#$)... A damn shame it works this way, but for the guys who won't play into it, I just don't feel they need criticized for it. 



> A man doesn't get to label himself. Nevertheless The whole point of the alpha-up exercise is for guys who don't have enough of the dark triad on their bell curve to add some of the milder behaviors to their standard beta/delta behaviors from time to time in order to maintain attraction. It's not necessary to truly become a Machiavellian psychopath in order to get laid like Machiavelli.


 I get all of this...I really do.....what I want to see underlined is....sure they may be more attractive...but it still doesn't make them better marriage material or superior men. So what , you are F'n







... if you can't love one woman with your whole heart & you suck in the emotional connection, in the long haul, you aren't really worth much of anything. 

This was one of the best posts I've seen in a long time HERE - to how I feel about Men & attraction....



abitlost said:


> From what I've personally seen with the guys the women are all fighting for, it's not actually the guy their fighting for it's to validate that they can get him even with other women after him, often once they do get the guy it seems they find out that the guy they were fighting other women for wasn't really worth it.
> 
> It seems some women need validation from other women that a mans a catch (a guy constantly being hit on ect) and almost approval of the man before they will get with them, they follow the crowd rather than make a sole decision about someone for themselves.


----------



## Gangland

that_girl said:


> lol All this talk about 'girls'. Yet we call the males 'men'. Just a peeve of mine. carry on.


oops!!
My apology's, I do mean women, I'm not quite that old so I haven't grown out of saying girls yet (but I have been married for four good years). I meant no disrespect.

When I first was married I was a nice guy as well, I got women still because I was a pretty good athlete in high school and college, but I was by all means the nice guy Jaqueen described.

My wife never did say anything like "You're just too nice" but after a while I could feel her contempt for me. I would ask, her things like "What am I doing wrong?" and she would say "nothing" or something trivial like "you leave the freaking cupboards open!" so I'd change and fix that, no more leaving cupboards open, the list just kept growing and growing. The sex dried up.

I started looking for a way to fix this, what the hell was I doing wrong? I read about alpha and beta, not from Athol but somewhere else I can't remember.

I completely and utterly rejected it. Hell no that's not me. I'm nice. My wife would HATE it if I treated her like that. She's my equal in every way and I'd never act like that towards her. That's crazy.

Things got worse between us. I got the "I love you but I'm not in love with you." I thought "WHAT? after all this stuff I've done for you? I treated you better than most women even dream!! etc!"

That anger led to me trying some of the things that people call Alpha. Still hadn't read Athol Kay at this point. But I dressed better, I start lifting with a friend who really knew what he was doing, I stopped caring as much (this was the hardest part) about her every whim.

At first, I came off as a jerk, I know I did, and I hated myself. It worked a lot better than what I had been doing however, but I still hated it. I read more because I wanted to know why this was.

The reason it sucked and the reason I hated it wasn't because the advice was completely wrong. It was because I was just imitating. 

and this is where I think Jaqueen and I agree.

It wasn't until I realized that I was valuable that the alpha stuff started happening on it's own really. And I didn't feel like a jerk because I could tell the difference between me just being a jerk and me standing up for being disrespected. I could see her manipulating and etc. and It didn't affect me as much. I started making decisions because I cared more about what happened for myself AND for her.

I never stopped caring about her. Not once. I never talked down to her like a child. Not once. I never once said or even hinted that "I don't give a damn about what's important to you because it's all about me, the alpha"

But from then on, I did think about myself in every decision. If I saw something was important to her to the point where she would be unhappy, I changed it. UNLESS I would also be unhappy.

Then she changed. Sex didn't get crazy instantly, but she started smiling a lot more. Then sex got better, Then the nagging slowed. Numerous times she told me she couldn't believe how hot I was. Marriage has been easier ever since.

All because I was pointed to the Alpha/Beta thing.

So I think a lot of people are too quick to point straight at changing your behavior to Alpha, but I don't think they're completely in the wrong direction.


----------



## that_girl

Whenever I said a man was too nice, it reflected solely on his prowess in bed. Timid, passionless men aren't attractive to me.


----------



## Gangland

that_girl said:


> Whenever I said a man was too nice, it reflected solely on his prowess in bed. Timid, passionless men aren't attractive to me.


LOL... I never had that problem.. probably why my wife never said those words to me. I don't think that being dominant in the bedroom alone was enough for her though.


----------



## jaquen

Gangland said:


> but genetically we haven't gotten above the ability to change what we're attracted to... note that though the amount of attractiveness to certain things is slightly different person to person. The things they are attracted to are essentially the same. The world over men are attracted a breast to hip ratio of 7.0, smiling symmetrical faces as opposed to their opposite, skinny as opposed to fat etc. So it's not a mistake to generalize when you speak of what men like. Same goes for women, yes they are human beings and make their own choices. but whats attractive to them is attractive to the majority of them. So telling someone who is by his own admission having problems being attractive enough to get this one girl to stay(buy posting about it on a forum)to become more attractive to the general population of mates, I can't see how it's a bad thing.


Yet the majority of women and men, the world over, don't fall into these "perfect" ratios.

Last I checked billions of human beings outside that ratio are married, dating, or in relationships.

Again, the numbers don't add up. Why? Because you fail to see that human attraction is an extremely complex process. Human beings tend to hook up with, fall for, and find beauty in, potential mates of comparable levels of attractiveness. Study after study shows this. This is the great equalizer in human attraction. This is why it's nearly universally strange, or unsettling, feeling when we come across the rare combo of say a Denzel Washington with a Rosie O'Donnell. Human beings are complex enough to find certain beauty standards to be more objectively attractive, while having a radically different standard for who they date, love, and marry in their own lives. A man can be excited by Mr. January in his latest Playboy, and simultaneously find his slightly overweight, objectively normal to plain looking wife both hot, and sexy. And never underestimate the emotional component in attraction, for both men and women; this is huge.


Also consider this; do you know that the largest internet sex study ever conducted showed that one of the most popular porn options searched by men were of clips and films featuring overweight women? Why is that, if we're all universally attracted to the same ratio?




Gangland said:


> In the case you mentioned, They'd prescribe it because he admitted he was too nice. If he wants that particular girl, It's obvious what he has to do. If he wants a different girl, He may not have to change...


And thank you for proving my point.

That anybody would suggest he change an incredible personality that has helped him be involved in some truly beautiful, hot, intelligent, interesting, fit women, women I guarantee you some of the TAM "alpha" crowd sure wouldn't have attracted, even for the benefit of ONE woman, is horrendous advice. It's downright sinful.



Gangland said:


> but since the majority of girls are attracted to the same thing it couldn't hurt.


I do not believe most of the men here on TAM have any clue what the hell the "majority of girls" want. None whatsoever. I see, in most cases here, the blind leading the blind.


----------



## Caribbean Man

SimplyAmorous said:


> *I just happen to think most women don't know what is good for them, they don't think any straighter than the men who are ruled by their di*ks.
> *
> .


FINALLY! :iagree: and THANK you.
Basically what I have been saying ad nauseum.

*" ...Half of a dozen and Six of the other.."*


----------



## that_girl

I didn't see you saying that at all.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I'm still looking for some useful discussion on this topic. There are a lot of men in this situation and they have a lot of trouble in their marriages. Many women think they are helping themselves with these behaviors (maybe they are) and who cares what their man think or feel, they deserve it anyway. Many of us are in crisis. What should we do?


Well,
In my humble opinion, you guys up there are so brainwashed by the mainstream media that I don't know what you all can do.

This is where I have to agree with Jaquen.
I am not taking any form of disrespect from my wife, or any woman at any time under no circumstance.
Simply because I don't disrespect her, nor them.
That's why i was very selective when I choose to get married.
Some women are not marriage material, some people are incompatible , some men just clueless and fooling themselves.Still other men are afraid to think for themselves and always have to seek permission from women before they express themselves. They want to be _politically correct_.

As much as Iove my wife, I know my worth, and I LOVE ME. If she starts acting like any of these women,
_I'm gone_
No MMSL,no NMNG, no " man up" no" reconcilliation" no " hysterical bonding", for me.
I have many options.
Plain and simple.


----------



## Gangland

jaquen said:


> Yet the majority of women and men, the world over, don't fall into these "perfect" ratios.
> 
> Last I checked billions of human beings outside that ratio are married, dating, or in relationships.
> 
> Again, the numbers don't add up. Why? Because you fail to see that human attraction is an extremely complex process. Human beings tend to hook up with, fall for, and find beauty in, potential mates of comparable levels of attractiveness. Study after study shows this. This is the great equalizer in human attraction. This is why it's nearly universally strange, or unsettling, feeling when we come across the rare combo of say a Denzel Washington with a Rosie O'Donnell. Human beings are complex enough to find certain beauty standards to be more objectively attractive, while having a radically different standard for who they date, love, and marry in their own lives. A man can be excited by Mr. January in his latest Playboy, and simultaneously find his slightly overweight, objectively normal to plain looking wife both hot, and sexy. And never underestimate the emotional component in attraction, for both men and women; this is huge.


The numbers don't add up because almost no one is that perfect ratio. I didn't say that they were only attracted to the perfect ratio excluding all others. The closer you are to the ratio the more attractive you are. So it makes complete sense to try suggest someone get closer to it.



Just because I'm with my wife does not automatically mean I don't want a 7.0 ratio. I still do. I just can't have it, or at least didn't find it before I met her. (she's pretty damned close if not 7.0) If she wasn't, I'd be a lot happier if she was and this is objective to all men. proof here. here and here (EVEN BLIND men prefer 7.0 what can I say?) and that is my point... 

In order for your suggestion to work for every man, You're saying.. that there must be a woman out there for him, that matches his preferences. That's seems true because there are more woman then men. but then what do you say to the women who are left over? It's statisticaly Impossible for every woman to pair of with every man who's "The one" and that's without taking into account that some men aren't even suitable mates. I'd dare say that in america where the obesity rate has reached over 67% there are even more mates that aren't suitable. Therefore with that shortage.. there will be competition, and it makes sense to compete rather than "hope" you're one of the ones who doesn't get left behind.



jaquen said:


> Also consider this; do you know that the largest internet sex study ever conducted showed that one of the most popular porn options searched by men were of clips and films featuring overweight women? Why is that, if we're all universally attracted to the same ratio?


BBW is a fetish, just like feet sex, not an overall indicator of what a population is generally attracted to. I'd be willing to bet that every person into BBW would still bang Jenna Jameson in a heartbeat.




jaquen said:


> And thank you for proving my point.
> 
> That anybody would suggest he change an incredible personality that has helped him be involved in some truly beautiful, hot, intelligent, interesting, fit women, women I guarantee you some of the TAM "alpha" crowd sure wouldn't have attracted, even for the benefit of ONE woman, is horrendous advice. It's downright sinful.


I got plenty of women when I was just like your friend. The problem was never getting them. And I wouldn't actually suggest he change for ONE woman.. That's ludicrous. but when you're in the throws of heartbreak, enough that
your spouting it on a forum, Everything will have to be related to you through that ONE girl. You're beyond just "be yourself" You already deep inside KNOW there's something wrong with the way you're interacting with women. If there wasn't why are you asking for help?



jaquen said:


> I do not believe most of the men here on TAM have any clue what the hell the "majority of girls" want. None whatsoever. I
> see, in most cases here, the blind leading the blind.


So then, these guys, all these married guys are spouting the same stuff, it's worked for them, their peers, their friends, and millions of other guys, but all of us are just confused?

I guess man. I guess.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

that_girl said:


> I didn't see you saying that at all.


Actually That girl is probably right ....I don't see many here saying this at all.......if I did, I probably would leave these threads alone, feeling at least half of the world has a brain & rises above their baser instincts -in regards to their futures. 

It's a hopeless cause.... Ya know what.. women will suck up to Alphas...(social statused Players ~ their confidence is alluring & has a hold on them) ....it's life.... it's their wiring ...how attraction flows for well over 90% of all women .... 

Just as women need to accept over 90% of men will sneak porn & want to view naked women...They're visual .... it's their wiring. Those who go against their baser natures for the betterment of their relationships & futures...we're the







ones.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Gangland said:


> So then, these guys, all these married guys are spouting the same stuff, it's worked for them, their peers, their friends, and millions of other guys, but all of us are just confused?
> 
> I guess man. I guess.


That's the point.
As Halien said, if it works for you that's ALL THAT MATTERS.

I think the real argument though is not_ if _it works but how and why.


----------



## Caribbean Man

SimplyAmorous said:


> Actually That girl is probably right ....I don't see many here saying this at all.......if I did, I probably would leave these threads alone, feeling at least half of the world has a brain & rises above their baser instincts -in regards to their futures.
> 
> It's a hopeless cause.... Ya know what.. women will suck up to Alphas...(social statused Players ~ their confidence is alluring & has a hold on them) ....it's life.... it's their wiring ...how attraction flows for well over 90% of all women ....
> 
> Just as women need to accept over 90% of men will sneak porn & want to view naked women...They're visual .... it's their wiring. Those who go against their baser natures for the betterment of their relationships & futures...we're the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ones.


Actually she is WRONG.
I said it three times on another parallel " Alpha thread " yesterday.
And I made that exact quote.
I never said that I said it on THIS thread.


----------



## that_girl

Yea. It must have been HIDDEN because I didn't SEE it in THIS thread or ANY of them.

And why would you NOT say it in THIS thread if all these threads are the SAME!

It was the EXACT quote? No way!


----------



## Caribbean Man

* sigh *


----------



## that_girl

Well, I will go look for that because I have been reading these threads. I quite enjoy hearing people's sides...I just didn't read anywhere where you said that. So, I'll go look now


----------



## Machiavelli

BjornFree said:


> So you're saying that the social hierarchy of males are decided by the ladies? Or is it that the interactions between the male decide who is alpha and that females just pick up on the scent.


Male sexual hierarchy is decided by the women in choosing which male(s) they wish to copulate with. If a large number of women are wanting to copulate with a particular male, he's a sexual alpha. 

Male social hierarchy is decided by the men, basically through force, literally in once and future times, or via force proxies (sports and business) today. PUA discussion is only concerned with sexual alphas, not social alphas. Sexual alphas are highly likely to also be social alphas, but there are male sexual alphas who are have little or no interest in male approval or the male social hierarchy. Despite the outsider status and lack of most overt status markers, they get all the sex they want, so in PUA terms, they are also sexual alphas. 

Which is why I think Vox Day's more sophisticated breakdown of the Male Socio-Sexual Hierarchy is a more useful shorthand when discussing real relationships instead of ONS.

And yes, women choose the sexual alphas. Simply put, they're the men the women want to boink.


----------



## jaquen

Gangland said:


> So then, these guys, all these married guys are spouting the same stuff, it's worked for them, their peers, their friends, and millions of other guys, but all of us are just confused?
> 
> I guess man. I guess.


All what guys? This place is a graveyard of failed marriages, failed attempts to save marriages, and failed attempts to change. That's not a criticism, that's just a basic fact.

Very few people affect real, lasting, significant change. Moving beyond beta vs alpha, the successful journey to a higher, more authentic self is rare. Why do you think we are so awed by stories of people who lose ginormous amounts of weight? Or people who, against all odds, manage to change their station in life? Or persons who under go radical shifts in thinking, and direction? Why is it that truly reconciled marriages are incredibly unusual? Because they are rare.

No. Neither TAM, nor the world at large, is filled with "millions" of success stories. NMMNG, MMSL, and the like aren't saving millions of marriages. Most men who read those books likely have an "Ah Ha!" moment, that eventually goes nowhere. It's just like the latest, sound nutrition/exercise/diet book that sweeps the nation, but ultimately affects no major, significant change in the population at large. They are not impacting the ever climbing divorce rate. They are not reversing on any large scale the 40 million sexless couples. You will not find even one single bit of objective data to back up the notion that these books are having some wide spread, calculable, measurable impact on the men in this country, and in the greater western world.

Metamorphosis is tough, rare business, no matter what label you want to attach to it.

That's why I believe it's imperative that you widen the criteria. Take it from someone who knows; this sh*t is hard enough to pull off when you're just trying to get to the core of your authentic self. The superfluous stuff might sound amazing in the comfort of your own home, where epiphany needn't be married to action, but the devils is always in the details.

Bottom line; be true to thyself. Embrace they self. And find a mate from that authentic, confident place. The rest will work out.


----------



## oldgeezer

Gangland said:


> Women don't pick who is alpha... Males do. Women respond to who they can tell is alpha based on the male social hierarchy.


He don't know women, do he? (paraphrasing Tweety Bird) 

I believe this is a very erroneous assumption. Women decide who has the attractive qualities. 

Dump 100 single men and women, all of whom have never met or seen each other, into a room with no walls and no barriers, and you will find that WOMEN create the social status for men. Men's social status is zilch until the women order it for us - ALL OTHER FACTORS BEING EQUAL. 

This is not saying that men who get to know each other don't also create some semblance of hierarchy, but it won't be the same as that which women set.


----------



## jaquen

oldgeezer said:


> He don't know women, do he? (paraphrasing Tweety Bird)
> 
> I believe this is a very erroneous assumption. Women decide who has the attractive qualities.
> 
> Dump 100 single men and women, all of whom have never met or seen each other, into a room with no walls and no barriers, and you will find that WOMEN create the social status for men. Men's social status is zilch until the women order it for us - ALL OTHER FACTORS BEING EQUAL.
> 
> This is not saying that men who get to know each other don't also create some semblance of hierarchy, but it won't be the same as that which women set.


Then how is the hierarchy established in times, and societies, where women aren't allowed to mingle socially with men, much less chose their own mate?


----------



## oldgeezer

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Yes, depending on the man and his level of attractiveness. That's why society has a bunch of rules and laws and social conventions otherwise everything would fall into complete chaos (or at least paralysis) while all the women lined up for the few top guys and everybody else stayed home and did nothing because they weren't getting any,



Horse Manure. Wholly. 

There ARE women who cannot (will not), but they are neither the majority, nor are they actually capable of a long term successful marriage.


----------



## Caribbean Man

In Absentia said:


> I thought alpha males didn't waste time arguing , grovelling and begging for sex... and made all the decisions... :smthumbup:


^^^^^^^
There,
I fixed it for you!


----------



## oldgeezer

jaquen said:


> Then how is the hierarchy established in times, and societies, where women aren't allowed to mingle socially with men, much less chose their own mate?


Any such society is controlled by a few, by force. It is of no interest to our discussion.


----------



## jaquen

oldgeezer said:


> Any such society is controlled by a few, by force. It is of no interest to our discussion.


It's of interest to our discussion since the concept of women being in the position of power, and access, to even be able to set male hierarchy is a very new, and limited, development in human social evolution.

Traditionally, and still in large swaths of this world today, men set the hierarchy. That tradition is rooted much deeper in our social and culture constructs than the idea that only recently empowered womanhood did.

Heck male hierarchical jockeying begins in pre-pubescent development, years before boys give two craps about what girls think. 

Weed out all the women, and you will still see the similar hierarchical structures emerge.


----------



## Caribbean Man

jaquen said:


> *Heck male hierarchical jockeying begins in pre-pubescent development, years before boys give two craps about what girls think. *
> 
> Weed out all the women, and you will still see the similar hierarchical structures emerge.


:iagree:
Never really looked at it from that perspective!
But on a cursory glance your theory appears to be correct.


----------



## oldgeezer

Gangland said:


> You are undermining attraction's role in a successful marriage. Now I'm certainly not saying that it's the end all be all, because truly nothing is, but to say that upping ones attraction (and for males this partly means going up in the social hierarchy) is not the way to go is foolish.


Not at all. I said nothing of the kind. 



> Most of the time, the reason why disrespect happens in a marriage isn't just because some random luck of the draw. It's because the person is responding to how you let them treat you. If your attractiveness goes up, in other words your value as a mate goes up, respect naturally follows because people respect the things they value and don't want to lose.


First, few people understand what they actually value, vs what they initially have a desire to have. Those are rarely the same thing. I may be attracted to owning a Viper, but what I really want is a new pickup. The reason I don't buy the Viper, is because I have an intellect and have learned to recognize what I truly want - which is what I need - vs my initial reaction. This applies to ALL aspects of life, including evaluating a woman as a mate. And, men and women, if they mature, all engage in this behavior. Children and teenagers behave without the intellectual input into their decisions, as do immature adults. 



> The reason the alpha/beta thing is the go to is because, well the **** works. It truly does. It's not going to work on all marriages no. but even if it doesn't, the person has then improved him self and can go find someone who values that.


Maturity, self growth, and interpersonal skills are not about alpha, beta, or sigma... They should be the goal of maturation as human beings. Sadly, 95% of us have no roadmap to adulthood and we miss some of the pages on how to get where we should be going... which is to say that some don't even know where they should go. 




> Also, as I said above, raising your status objectively does work for raising your attractiveness. but when most people prescribe alpha they are talking about the behavior, not an actual place on the pole. Women respond to the behavior of an alpha, Someone who is high on the status pole acts a certain way. Like how a celebrity is calm and unaffected while the fan is jumping around screaming.


The entire problem that makes this controversial is something I call 'reverse engineering'. We observe something, study something and try to duplicate it without knowing the substance. 

I said in a previous post that the problem is that Alpha (beta, delta, sigma, omega, etc, etc) is an OBSERVED STATUS. It is not the key to the status.. It is the observed status itself. Where the weakness in all this lies, is determining cause an effect. We see *******s getting all the hot women and presume that specific behaviors (which ones? Are you sure you know?) picked because of their relative ease in identifying are the cause of the observed status. 

That's all fine and great, until you attempt to apply characteristics of one who has great success at attraction to the goal of long term relationship success. It doesn't hurt ( It certainly can help), but the skill set required is dramatically different. For a certain type of woman, you don't need great communication skills, and assorted relationship shills, you merely need to manipulate her emotions and sexual interest - and it gets you to your goal - which is, into her pants. 

This is NOT the goal of getting married. I do realize that for many men getting into the pants of their wives IS a rare achievement, but it isn't solved by applying the same behaviors. It certainly may alleviate the problem, but in no case would I call it a "solution". Anymore than morphine is a solution for a broken bone. 

As I said elsewhere, if being "alpha" is required to have a long term relationship, and if you can't have one without it, then why aren't all alphas immune to divorce and marital problems? Because, quite simply, the goals are different. 

Attraction can get two people together... But durable marriage is an entirely different skill set, consisting of learning relationship communication skills, understanding what each needs AND being willing to meet them, and many other things - including (not optional) maturity in the rest of your life skills. 

If it were actually true that no woman will stay with a non-alpha man, society would be astoundingly different than it is today, with the vast majority of men having been dumped for the few, who have harems ( ring any bells about some historical societies that were quite barbaric?). 

Rather, if we examine successful marriages, I'm going to say that we find that emotional maturity, personal development, integrity, honor, the success skills, and finally, relationship skills have been learned by both parties, to a very significant degree. And these are, in my opinion, NOT defined by the labels as alpha, etc. 



> While women won't start screaming and jumping around, they WILL respond. they have no control over it. The same way you have no control over the way you feel when you hear a woman make "THAT moaning, sound" Sure you won't jump her bones. But if there was already some attraction (which in a marriage there had better be) you'll think about it. THAT's exactly the way you want your wife thinking about YOU. That's why I believe it leads to a better marriage.


I believe this statement is seriously defunct because it includes "initial attraction" as being on par with "relationship skills" and "maturity" and "personal development". It isn't. Instead, the arguments start in because you start cherry picking certain behaviors out of arbitrary social classifications modeled after the interactions of animals, and then assuming that the behaviors (and not the qualities of the person behind them) are the *key* factor.


----------



## oldgeezer

jaquen said:


> It's of interest to our discussion since the concept of women being in the position of power, and access, to even be able to set male hierarchy is a very new, and limited, development in human social evolution.
> 
> Traditionally, and still in large swaths of this world today, men set the hierarchy. That tradition is rooted much deeper in our social and culture constructs than the idea that only recently empowered womanhood did.
> 
> Heck male hierarchical jockeying begins in pre-pubescent development, years before boys give two craps about what girls think.
> 
> Weed out all the women, and you will still see the similar hierarchical structures emerge.


Your last statement; the key being "similar", but not the same. 

It hardly seems profound to believe that any grouping of people OR animals develops some kind hierarchical structure. In fact, I don't believe that it was ever in dispute that there is or isn't structure of some kind. That being the case, one hierarchical structure vs another is going to vary mostly on who is in what, rather than the actual structure. 

Certainly, assemble baseball teams on a sports field, programmers at a convention, a random assemblage of singles who don't know each other, and a group of millionaires in a social club, and each will arrange itself by completely unique factors. 

Which is to repeat my initial assertion that a society structured by a dominant dictator or oligarchy, which controls the behavior of its subjects by force will have absolutely no resemblance to that of human beings which are free to associate by whatever factors they choose. It requires no "evolution" for this to be true, and once social stigmas and learned requirements (at best two generations) are forgotten, the outcome will be completely different. 

Social structures of 1700, 1800, 1900 and 2000 are very different, and it isn't a product of evolution, but rather, a product of what forces control people's behavior. It isn't evolution at all.


----------



## Gangland

Machiavelli said:


> Male sexual hierarchy is decided by the women in choosing which male(s) they wish to copulate with. If a large number of women are wanting to copulate with a particular male, he's a sexual alpha.
> 
> Male social hierarchy is decided by the men, basically through force, literally in once and future times, or via force proxies (sports and business) today. PUA discussion is only concerned with sexual alphas, not social alphas. Sexual alphas are highly likely to also be social alphas, but there are male sexual alphas who are have little or no interest in male approval or the male social hierarchy. Despite the outsider status and lack of most overt status markers, they get all the sex they want, so in PUA terms, they are also sexual alphas.
> 
> Which is why I think Vox Day's more sophisticated breakdown of the Male Socio-Sexual Hierarchy is a more useful shorthand when discussing real relationships instead of ONS.
> 
> And yes, women choose the sexual alphas. Simply put, they're the men the women want to boink.


Yes' I'd agree with you there, They are different, though I don't think they're completely separate. 

women respond to force alphas (quarterbacks, politicians) or sexual alphas (players, and naturals)the same. But I'd agree that PUA's focus on the sexual alphas.


----------



## Machiavelli

oldgeezer said:


> And you confirm my original premise, that some of this whole discussion is a firm belief that women ( in general, as a whole ) cannot keep their legs closed and are slaves to male sexual attraction.


The discussion has nothing to do with what a woman can or cannot do with regards to her legs, it's about the fact that 80% of the women are sexually attracted to the same 20% of men who demonstrate the highest sexual value. Sexual attraction is not the same thing as following through to copulation; any given woman may or may not open her legs, but she will be sexually attracted to the 20% only. However, the numbers being what they are, the 20% can get just as busy as they wish to be, if they want to put up with all the drama. The 80-20 rule, basically.



oldgeezer said:


> I don't subscribe to this theory... But I do subscribe to the one that says that a small segment of the male population does think this way, and it's related to the way they view the world of females as their possession. They have an evolution constructed right to the p***y of their choice.


It doesn't matter what you or "a small segment of the male population" think. The Pareto Principle is in effect. 



oldgeezer said:


> You proved my point in other ways as well. For instance, the incidence of adultery (especially serial adultery) by women isn't as high as you try to make it seem.


There are no reliable statistics on female infidelity over a lifetime, due to female sexual minimization. (PDF of a study on how women admit to higher rates of sexual activity as survey anonymity is raised. However, one long term study tells us that *7% of married U.S. women ADMIT to adultery in any given year.* Since 100% of women do not commit adultery over the course of 14 years of marriage, there are some serial adulteresses there.



oldgeezer said:


> Just like the "half of all marriages end in divorce"... That's true, but the percentages of MARRIED COUPLES who end in divorce is MUCH smaller. The numbers are generated by serial married / divorced people who are much smaller in number, but marry and divorce 2 or more times.


Approx 70% of first marriages succeed. Also 75% of the divorces are filed by women. And 7% of married women admit adultery at least once within the previous 12 months. Also, 80% of the women are sexually attracted to 20% of the men. And so on.



oldgeezer said:


> I do believe that there are definitely a smallish number of women who do not have a loyalty to their mate - even though they chose them. And they will cheat on an alpha, as well. And while the partner may not know about the cheating spouse (it works both ways), the incidence of long term marriage combined with infidelity is almost zero. And the odds are that a cheating spouse will sabotage their next marriage and even the one after that, if they manage to ever reach it.


The thing is, the "experts" claim 36-65% of busted adulterers will not leave the marriage and the couple will stay together. 




oldgeezer said:


> None of this proves anything like your original assertions, and anyone with minor analytical skills knows it.


What assertions? 



oldgeezer said:


> Again, as I said in my original premise, we would ALL be served by a better "how to" manual on making marriage work, and both men and women individually would be better served by chucking the Alpha and Beta labels and start focusing on the behavior characteristics that make us mature, responsible, and successful adults.


This discussion isn't about what makes successful adults, it's about the keys to generating sexual attraction that makes a man's women want to have sex with him. 




oldgeezer said:


> I contend that the focus on the labels is more of an ego trip by certain people who find that they have certain qualities that makes it easy for them to attract others and thus find little use for the qualities that make that a healthy relationship based on true and respectful qualities, rather than on guttural appeal.


Men get married to have sex, sure some of the Lambdas are in showbiz and they need a beard, but we're talking bell curve here. If a man is married and he's not getting sex, he needs to fix that problem, because he's getting ripped off on his marriage contract. If it makes you feel better to call an alpha a crybaby, fine use a different label. In that case a crybaby is the dude the women want to do. To these women, "What's in a name; A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." 




oldgeezer said:


> Nowhere in this do I say that the labelled "ranking" types don't exist... they do, but the labels are assigned to observed status, not to what actually creates success beyond mere attraction and social / sexual ranking.


For the guy who's not getting any action, sex is the only success he needs. Mazlow's Hierarchy isn't taught in kindergarten anymore?


----------



## jaquen

Trenton said:


> Jaquen...what articulate, wonderful threads. It probably helps that I agree with every word you typed. It was wonderful to read you.


I really appreciate that Trenton. Thank you.

It was wonderful to be read by you.


----------



## Caribbean Man

This entire thread is going in circles.
Maybe the women could help out the men here.

So maybe a few ladies could list the things that causes them to be* sexually attracted to a man on a primal level.*

Whether it is their husbands or any man.
What makes them want to have sex, and what does not.In other words, what works.


----------



## Gangland

jaquen said:


> All what guys? This place is a graveyard of failed marriages, failed attempts to save marriages, and failed attempts to change. That's not a criticism, that's just a basic fact.


I don't believe I ever claimed Alpha was the end all be all. In fact I said just the opposite. There hasn't been anything that's been proven to make a marriage last forever, but to say that someones marriage hasn't improved and they are a failure and therefore they should drop all notion of a plan and just "embrace yourself"? How the hell can anyone act on that? How do you "find yourself and own it?


The point I've been trying to make isn't that Alpha is the ****s beta is the pits and all other theories are out the door. but your theory leaves a man with nothing to go on, back where he started. In fact it's almost the EXACT advice I got when I went to my friends, and other woman. It sounds good, but how do I do it? 



jaquen said:


> Very few people affect real, lasting, significant change. Moving beyond beta vs alpha, the successful journey to a higher, more authentic self is rare. Why do you think we are so awed by stories of people who lose ginormous amounts of weight? Or people who, against all odds, manage to change their station in life? Or persons who under go radical shifts in thinking, and direction? Why is it that truly reconciled marriages are incredibly unusual? Because they are rare.


This we can agree on, no problem here, I don't think truly changing or reconciling a marriage is easy at all. That doesn't mean I won't prescribe it. If somethings not working, is it not sane to do something else? "Be yourself" isn't going to cut it. It never has, otherwise there wouldn't be a manosphere in the first place.



jaquen said:


> No. Neither TAM, nor the world at large, is filled with "millions" of success stories. NMMNG, MMSL, and the like aren't saving millions of marriages. Most men who read those books likely have an "Ah Ha!" moment, that eventually goes nowhere. It's just like the latest, sound nutrition/exercise/diet book that sweeps the nation, but ultimately affects no major, significant change in the population at large. They are not impacting the ever climbing divorce rate. They are not reversing on any large scale the 40 million sexless couples. You will not find even one single bit of objective data to back up the notion that these books are having some wide spread, calculable, measurable impact on the men in this country, and in the greater western world.


And billion upon billions have read about finding their authentic self and have had no impact on it either. That message is so diluted throughout society that I heard it in class while in college. Yet we still have high divorce rates, we still have 40 million sexless couples, you won't find a single bit of objective data that says being yourself has had a wide spread, calculable, measurable, impact on the men in this country.

The problem isn't what you're saying, Finding oneself is definitely a meritable task in finding a mate and beyond. The problem is how? I'll make no claims that I'm perfect but I'll tell you I feel more authentic to myself now then I ever did before. The alpha behavior comes from that authentic confidence, not the other way around. I don't think, "better not call her back or it's beta" I just really have been busy doing me stuff that i don't have time. I don't think "better make that decision or that's beta." I just really want what I wanted and decided to get it so I make the decision. Is that not authentic as it gets? is that not alpha?


jaquen said:


> Metamorphosis is tough, rare business, no matter what label you want to attach to it.
> 
> That's why I believe it's imperative that you widen the criteria. Take it from someone who knows; this sh*t is hard enough to pull off when you're just trying to get to the core of your authentic self. The superfluous stuff might sound amazing in the comfort of your own home, where epiphany needn't be married to action, but the devils is always in the details.
> 
> Bottom line; be true to thyself. Embrace they self. And find a mate from that authentic, confident place. The rest will work out.


Jaqueen we aren't on completely different planes here.. I think I use alpha to get to the same place you describe. A person who is Authentic to themselves is going to be alpha. There's no way they can't be. I just don't think "be authentic" as easy as describing a set of behavors.


----------



## Machiavelli

BjornFree said:


> What happens when the male refuses to be a part of the group deciding who's the alpha?


If we're talking sexual alpha, he can't be part of the group, unless he decides to have sex with himself.

Social alpha? If he doesn't join the group and move up, he'll never be the alpha. If women in great numbers still want him, even though he's not in the male in-crowd, he's a Sigma, by Vox Day's lights.


----------



## Machiavelli

Gangland said:


> Women don't pick who is alpha... Males do. Women respond to who they can tell is alpha based on the male social hierarchy.


Yes and no. Women do want the social alpha; after all, he's got the genes to rise to the top. That makes them sexual alphas by default. However, there are also the "bad boys" who aren't quarterbacks and couldn't care less about having a posse of sycophants and minions; they're the lone wolves on Harleys, or playing Les Pauls, who women are lined up to "be with." These guys are sexual alphas to the women, but not social alphas to other men. Vox call these Sigmas.



Gangland said:


> In other words, males will establish who is dominant regardless of if females are involved based on a meritocracy, shaming tactics etc. If you've ever been the coach of a football team or played football yourself and been in the guys locker room you can see this first hand. Guys will towel slap, challenge each others masculinity through (sorry but it's true) homosexual meme's, arm wrestle etc, each one seeking to take his claim on in a certain spot on the hierarchy. From little league all the way up to college (my experience only goes that far but I'm positive it's this way in the pros)
> 
> Women respond to that already established hierarchy, which is why the quarterback, who is usually the alpha of his team, usually gets the good looking cheer leader and all the babes lolz.


Correct. Women do go after those guys. In fact, they pant after them. 99% of the time, that's the way it is. I agree. I've seen how married women act in a smallish party with charismatic, single, professional athletes who have been getting laid every night since junior high. It's embarrassing. But, Frank Sinatra, and other guys like him, was not one of those guys. Men didn't respect him, he'd be on the ground in 10 seconds, but the women had to have him in great numbers. The oversize tool didn't hurt, but they didn't know about that the first time and they still swooned over him.



Gangland said:


> But the only reason that is, is because women care less about the physical. If they were just attracted to the physical, then "Alpha" wouldn't even exist. People would just say, stay the same, and try and look better.


I know what your saying, but research disagrees somewhat. Women are subconsciously looking for the golden ratio, chest to waist. If you've got that, you're much more likely to be funny and intriguing, if you get my drift. The biggest up in sex rank a guy can get, besides winning the powerball jackpot, is to get the golden ratio.


----------



## jaquen

Gangland said:


> but to say that someones marriage hasn't improved and they are a failure and therefore they should drop all notion of a plan and just "embrace yourself"?


Nope, didn't say that. This conversation hasn't been in the context of those are are actually doing this stuff, and seeing improvement. I've already stated, multiple times actually, that IF something is working for a person, more power to them. Doesn't matter one iota what I think if a person is doing all this and getting real, significant, lasting results. I'm happy for them no matter how they arrived.




Gangland said:


> but your theory leaves a man with nothing to go on, back where he started.


So encouraging men to mine deep, get therapy if necessary, do the heavy lifting of digging into themselves to discover their most authentic, unique self is telling them to go back where they started?

I'd sure like to know how you arrived at that conclusion from everything I've said. I know for a fact, in my own life, that this kind of introspective work sure hasn't led me "back where I started".

There is a vast difference between finding out who you truly are, how you tick in this world, and just returning to the broken, familiar places you came from.

You didn't understand that difference, so you returned to your weakness, instead of digging deep and finding your strength (whatever your strengths are).





Gangland said:


> I'll tell you I feel more authentic to myself now then I ever did before. The alpha behavior comes from that authentic confidence, not the other way around. I don't think, "better not call her back or it's beta" I just really have been busy doing me stuff that i don't have time. I don't think "better make that decision or that's beta." I just really want what I wanted and decided to get it so I make the decision. Is that not authentic as it gets? is that not alpha?


Are you actually reading what I'm writing in this thread? If the "alpha" behavior is authentically you, and not a cheap mask you're wearing in order to appear like some stereotypical idea of what a man "should" be like, than you GOT IT. It's you. That's who you are. It works for you, and that's ultimately all that matters.

Congratulations.


----------



## Machiavelli

jaquen said:


> In my personal experience women care FAR more about looks than most men want to acknowledge.


Oh, yeah.


----------



## Machiavelli

SimplyAmorous said:


> What I find* pathetic *is these Good men who marry these women who screwed all these Players in their youth trying to win them... they were never wanted in the 1st place (just used-but that was OK too, they were loving it)... then they settle for a GOOD hearted Family man (I will say tipped Beta - cause for me, he is preferable- I am allowed my opinion).....then she grows bored with him... instead of working with him, appreciating the good..... she pines for another Alpha male....another marriage destroyed...


----------



## Machiavelli

Caribbean Man said:


> This entire thread is going in circles.
> Maybe the women could help out the men here.
> 
> So maybe a few ladies could list the things that causes them to be* sexually attracted to a man on a primal level.*
> 
> Whether it is their husbands or any man.
> What makes them want to have sex, and what does not.In other words, what works.


You know, just be yourself and the right girl will find you. LOL. Oh, and don't hold your breath too long.


----------



## Machiavelli

jaquen said:


> Now lets say this same man, my very best friend, came to TAM during his low moment. He talks about how he was rejected for being Mr. Nice Guy. He would inevitably be told to "man up", get more "alpha", subscribed the standard reading material, and cheered on to change his core personality. This is not to say that all TAMers on the NMMNG bandwagon would do this, but this kind of reaction is typical here.
> 
> But the problem here is simple; his authentic self rocks. His authentic self, Mr. Nice Guy, has attracted some pretty incredible, and hot, women (doesn't hurt that he's a good looking guy). He's had plenty of sex partners, and a couple really great long term relationships with sexy, intelligent women. It would be absolutely detrimental if the typical TAM subscription was shoved down his throat all because SOME women, and in this case one woman, are repulsed by genuine nice guys. Where as he should be told to phuck that one girl, and be reminded that he's had no trouble attracting incredible women just as he is, the mandate would be to tell this great human being that he is flawed, and that he needs to change ASAP. That would be horrible advice.


Apples and oranges. TAM is for married dudes. A single guy just having a woman drop out of his soft-harem rotation of casual relationships is a little different from a guy who is 15 years and three kids into a faithful marriage and he wakes up one day to realize he hasn't had sex in six months, his wife has been shaving her snatch for the last five, and she goes to GNO 5 nights a week with her GF who is in an open marriage. That's the guy who needs to alpha up all the way to the courthouse.



jaquen said:


> Teach people to embrace who they authentically are. It will never fail you. It weeds out the people who will NEVER be attracted to the real you, but it will attract people who genuinely "see" who you are.


The problem is that while most men are attracted to most women, most women are NOT attracted to most men. That's going to be the case whether they are authentic or not. In pre-medieval times, less than 30% of males passed on their genes. Pareto again. If a guy is one of the 80% he may need to reinvent himself. Or not. 



jaquen said:


> Which brings up another issue entirely. *Not enough of the men of TAM have true, real, non-sexual relationships with women.* The way women are spoken of on this board, in general, reeks of men who are anemic in relationship to women as fellow human beings. Lots of talk of women as potential sex objects, and mates, very little understanding, or insight, about women full, fleshed out, three dimensional, radically varying, complex human beings.


I think that's to be expected. This is a marriage board and marriage is a sexual arrangement. 100% of the men on this board have or had mothers and I bet most of those are non-sexual relationships. Now, most of the guys who first come here for marriage advice don't understand women and a high percentage of them want to keep it that way. Look at all the post and run dudes in CWI as exhibit A.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> You know, just be yourself and the right girl will find you. LOL. Oh, and don't hold your breath too long.



More than one hour since my last question....

I'm sure they have lots to say,
So we wait.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Originally Posted by *SimplyAmorous *

_"..What I find pathetic is these Good men who marry these women who screwed all these Players in their youth trying to win them... they were never wanted in the 1st place (just used-but that was OK too, they were loving it)... then they settle for a GOOD hearted Family man (I will say tipped Beta - cause for me, he is preferable- I am allowed my opinion).....then she grows bored with him... instead of working with him, appreciating the good..... she pines for another Alpha male....another marriage destroyed..."
_
That's why I married my wife.
And they label me a " hypocrite " on TAM for marrying her...

HA, ha!
Well she's my double standard ,I LOVE her, and she loves me. Most importantly, it WORKS.

Its really late down here. This is the latest I've EVER been on TAM.
My wife is in the bedroom getting impatient......

Adios folks!


----------



## Lyris

Caribbean Man said:


> More than one hour since my last question....
> 
> I'm sure they have lots to say,
> So we wait.


Well, I can't speak for any other woman, but I don't feel like discussing something very personal and difficult to articulate properly on a thread so full of men posting about how women are too stupid and/or manipulative to know and say what they want. 

It gets boring, having your experience and perception of yourself dismissed as snowflaking.


----------



## Dollystanford

the answer to the question is - who knows?

some men make me want to f*ck them and others don't. There isn't a checklist of criteria

No doubt whatever I said would be scoffed at anyway, because god forbid I make a decision for myself rather than go by what my simple brain is naturally programmed to find attractive


----------



## oldgeezer

I wondered how long it would take for some members of the female gender to show up and respond to the argument that they are slaves to male sexual attraction.


----------



## tobio

oldgeezer said:


> I wondered how long it would take for some members of the female gender to show up and respond to the argument that they are slaves to male sexual attraction.


I think after reading some of the comments on this thread, that would be like walking up to the gallows and asking not to be hung


----------



## In Absentia

oldgeezer said:


> I wondered how long it would take for some members of the female gender to show up and respond to the argument that they are slaves to male sexual attraction.


they'll never show up, because this thread and the whole concept behind it is incredibly sexist. Why should they take part?


----------



## Machiavelli

In Absentia said:


> they'll never show up, because this thread and *the whole concept behind it* is incredibly sexist. Why should they take part?


Biology?


----------



## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> Biology?


Mach, 
Good morning sir.

I'm sending a PM across to you in a while regarding the usual stuff.
I would really appreciate your opinion.

[ An issue with my workouts in the gym.]


Sorry folks for the thread jack,
Please continue ladies.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> Maybe the women could help out the men here.
> 
> So maybe a few ladies could list the things that causes them to be* sexually attracted to a man on a primal level.*
> 
> Whether it is their husbands or any man.
> What makes them want to have sex, and what does not.In other words, what works.


.... ON A PRIMAL LEVEL....it is *ALL PHYSICAL LOOKS* for me.. nothing more. I know what I like, and I will look... and enjoy it... but I've always used my head, counting the cost...and where such a man would leave me in the future. 

I was a girl who dreamed of the whole package, or I would never have sex... I'd wait for "the one" who gave me his whole







. 

I never liked sports, so I never liked Jocks, the really popular ones seemed so God awful egotistical I just looked upon them as wasted air. Those types repulse me. 

I was more into Music. In my teens, had a few crushes on boys who played Guitar ~ but they were Burnouts (I crushed from afar, they never knew). We used to go to Firehall rock concerts, I oogled many boys there, especially in the bands. But yet I wouldn't be with someone who smoked, or took drugs, wanted nothing to do with a Partier. It wasn't my scene. 

It was never about the FUN in the moment for me...

Being Lovers with my Best friend was something I wanted. Most women friend zone these types.... I seek them.. of course they have to be Good looking. My husband wore geeky glasses when we met- I am very sure this kept the women from noticing him (a benefit for me)....Take those glasses off...He was physically as







as the ones I was checking out. 

I never cared about a guys social status, his "presence", his muscles or how many competitions he won... that is not what does it for me..... In my youth, I used to say I wanted to marry a FARMER....(cause I loved the country so much)... 

How a guy treats ME... is he the "one woman man" type...is he honest & true, Romantic & sentimental... does his values match mine - those things triumph it all - for me.


I believe I've always put more weight on the Beta Qualities over the Alpha ...as there are plenty of Good Looking Betas to choose from. It's only a PLUS in my book that other women aren't lining up around the corner! 

*Alpha* = attraction building = Dopamine = In Love = Excitement

*Beta* = comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment" 


> The *Alpha Traits* are those associated with classic “manly man” strengths. Power, dominance, physical ability, bravery, wealth, cool and confidence. Oh and good genes. These are the things that attract women and turn them on sexually. The Alpha Traits are linked to the dopamine response in women.





> The *Beta Traits* are those associated with the strengths of being a nice guy / “family man”. Kindness, being a good listener, the ability to help with the children, dependability, thoughtfulness, compassion and patience. These all create a sense of comfort and safety for the woman, and relax her because she feels that if she became pregnant, the Beta Trait male isn’t going to abandon her and the baby.





__________________


----------



## In Absentia

Machiavelli said:


> Biology?


yes, your version of biology...


----------



## Machiavelli

In Absentia said:


> yes, your version of biology...


Which part?


----------



## In Absentia

Machiavelli said:


> Which part?


the Machiavellian one...


----------



## Machiavelli

In Absentia said:


> the Machiavellian one...


That women are attracted to dark triad males? There's quite a bit of research into that one from universities around the world.


----------



## In Absentia

Machiavelli said:


> That women are attracted to dark triad males? There's quite a bit of research into that one from universities around the world.


the research on the dark triad as mating strategy is based on college students... even Wikipedia warns the readers about this...

The concept of alpha males and women attracted to them is sexist because is a gross generalisation and implies that all women like alpha males. Which is not true. If a were a woman, I would be offended.


----------



## Cosmos

oldgeezer said:


> I wondered how long it would take for some members of the female gender to show up and respond to the argument that they are slaves to male sexual attraction.


Some of us simply find it too tedious to even comment in these sort of threads anymore.


----------



## jaquen

Machiavelli said:


> That's the guy who needs to alpha up all the way to the courthouse...


This needs to become the new default mantra here at TAM.

Sticky it at the top.


----------



## that_girl

:whip:


----------



## Caribbean Man

Almost TWELVE HOURS has passed, and only ONE WOMAN was *honest enough* to answer a simple question about exactly what causes sexual attraction on a primal level.

And I don't buy the cop out excuse about it being private, because I started a similar thread in the ladies section some weeks ago, and it was well subscribed.

ladies, this is your chance to prove that biology has absolutely no part to play in sexual attraction, as some of you are claiming.

Say what causes sexual attraction on a primal level.
Who or what causes it?

The guy who rescues kittens from trees?
The sweet little guy in the office who runs all your errands?
The cute guy who's hangs out with you all ,who's like " one of the girls "?

Is there rally such a thing as a " friend zone?"

It would be nice if the ladies could explain.

SA has already answered, and nobody put a noose around her neck...


----------



## jaquen

With the lack of in depth female input regarding their perspective, you know the other HALF of this conversation, this whole thread looks like one big, ole, middle school circle jerk.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Trenton said:


> *On a primal level I am attracted to dark hair, dark eyes and olive skin, I am attracted to men who are shorter than average...but have no desire to just have sex with some guy because I think he's attractive nor do I have to find a guy insanely attractive in order to be attracted to them.*
> 
> If attraction is combined with my attraction to my intellectual interpretation of the person, then I get the chills and I'm intrigued and will wait by the phone for the next phone call, txt, etc.
> 
> I look for sincerity, intelligence, curiosity, passion, *creativity*, and ingenuity, neatness, or disheveled with cleanness (love the smell of soap and laundry detergent), shyness, someone I can test and play with and they will surprise me, someone confident enough in themselves to not be intimidated by me or my intense personality, goals, hopes, dreams.
> 
> If you don't have some combo of these traits, odds are you wouldn't hold my interest for more than a few minutes or in any long-term relationship. Truth be told, I don't think I'd even consider making a phone call or bothering to build a relationship deeper than acquaintance.


Thanks for the response Trenton!

Basically you are saying like SA, a certain type of look [ facial features] and then the other traits follow.

Am I right?


----------



## Caribbean Man

jaquen said:


> With the lack of in depth female input regarding their perspective, you know the other HALF of this conversation, this whole thread looks like one big, ole, middle school circle jerk.


:iagree:

We already know what attracts men sexually on a primal level.
Bust , Waist , Hips.
Men never deny that they don't need anything special to 
" rise to the occasion", it just happens.
We ALL know.
Some of us are just more advanced we could choose to respond or not.


----------



## that_girl

What are you talking about? Lots of women read your question but didn't want to reply. What does it matter anyhow? We like who we like. Everyone likes something different. I don't like buff men. I don't care for jocks. I don't like white blonds either. Preferences.


----------



## Dollystanford

I've given you my answer, you chose to ignore it

I don't know

I have had a tendency in the past to be attracted to men with no hair and broad shoulders - that doesn't mean I find all such men attractive, nor that I wouldn't be attracted to someone with hair. I've never been attracted to anyone stupid, whatever they look like

this attempt to boil sexual attraction down into some kind of convenient checklist is an utterly pointless waste of time - you can ask a thousand different women and get a thousand different answers


----------



## that_girl

Oooh. I love Daryl too  I probably would have dated him in my younger years...and had a crap load of drama. lol.


----------



## that_girl

If you lined up all the men I have be infatuated with and adored, you would say :wtf:. None of them look the same at all. There's a short, now balding, guy; the gothic mysterious man, the rebel without a dollar; the musician, the other, cleaner musician; and then my husband-- the rebel with a fast car and a steady job. 

All different ethnicity, different body types, no real one "type" of look.

But they ALL have *it*. And *it* is something i can't describe. It's that pull I would have towards them the moment we met. That instant "omg who is that" which would grab my attention.

The way they move, the way they would observe the room. I never went for the loud guy--- usually the quiet one in the corner. Intelligent and interesting, but before I knew them, they had *it* and *it* is something I refused to do without in my life. My husband has a TON of *it*.


----------



## jaquen

Trenton said:


> The character Rick Grimes is my least favorite character. He is a Sheriff prior to zombie world and stays the same after zombie world...controlling, always ruled by his manliness and quest for honor, unable to protect his family because he's so busy thinking his duty to his job is the most important thing, crappy absent father, lacking any depth, and annoying to the point where I was very happy he lost his marbles recently.


Interesting to read this having only seen the first episode of Walking Dead. I don't see Rick Grimes like this at all, but I obviously have a very limited well of info to draw from.


----------



## that_girl

Trenton said:


> Actually, I can clearly remember when I recognized I fell in love with my butthole husband and that was when he was laying on the couch with his arms crossed across his chest. He was wearing his Meat Beat Manifesto long sleeve concert t-shirt and was lost in the music playing. I remember thinking, "****! I love this fuc%er!"


With my husband, it was in his car, we were pushing maybe 100mph on the open road, and he had this smirk on his face, with that bottom lip, he looked at me and omg. Panties. Wet.


----------



## that_girl

jaquen said:


> Interesting to read this having only seen the first episode of Walking Dead. I don't see Rick Grimes like this at all, but I obviously have a very limited well of info to draw from.


Watch them all on Netflix. You won't be disappointed.


----------



## jaquen

Trenton said:


> Oh, you have such a long way to go. In the beginning things don't appear as they eventually unravel which is why the show is genius. It combines the drama women crave with the violence and gore men crave. LOL
> 
> I am patiently awaiting Sunday night for the next episode.


I shamelessly cop to loving a good drama (sure hope I do, considering my occupation). Always. I'll take the drama AND the violence/gore, all the way down the line. No need to choose.

:smthumbup:


----------



## Cosmos

This is what attracts me to a man:-

*Initial Attraction*
Height / build (tall, well built)
Well groomed
Confidence / Poise

*Secondary Attraction*
Confidence /Poise
Intelligence
Integrity
Assertiveness
Good manners

*Sexual Attraction*
Eye contact
Smile
Scent
Passion
Assertiveness


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> Thanks for the response Trenton!
> 
> Basically you are saying like SA, a certain type of look [ facial features] and then the other traits follow.





> The cute guy who's hangs out with you all ,who's like " one of the girls "?


 I don't care how bad this sounds, but Yes, that type would work well for me. One could say my husband was like this. When we met, he was my best friend & he hung out with my gf's too - right along with me. I loved that about him, but I'd hang out with his guy friends too. It went both ways. 

I don't like husky men, if he is chubby, he is utterly out ... I like them LANKY... flat stomach is a must....I like the grungy rock star drug addict look... ... In my youth (I still haven't changed- this is my type in porn)....if a guy had long hair.... I would likely be drooling... (didn't matter what color)....if you added a guitar, he would be my fantasy...

I recall me & some friends calling up this boy grades ahead of us -the thrill of hearing him on the other line... it was a RUSH. He was in a BAND [email protected]#$%^&* 

But it was a dilemma for me, cause although I LOVED the LOOK... I hated the weed smokin/ boozing lifestyle of those types... I preferred the lifestyle of the Geeks .... introverted, intelligent book worms- who enjoyed indepth communication...so long as they had a sense of humor & were CUTE, I was terribly intrigued by these ones. 

But Primal LUST....These are my hotties - 


























Even Ryan Gosling would come after those types....


----------



## pidge70

My first H was a 5'9, part Cherokee/Sioux, quiet man and very introverted. Joe is a 6'1, Scot/German who is an extrovert. I loved my Ex and I love Joe even though the two have nothing in common other than the fact they are both male. Their physical appearances are so vastly different as are their personalities. 

My main consistent need in a male is a sense of humor. I cannot fathom being with a man who cannot make me laugh.


----------



## pidge70

Trenton said:


> SA, you like girly looking dudes!
> 
> LOL!


I thought Axl Rose was hot back in the day......


----------



## Dollystanford

gawd SA, I just wanna take a pair of clippers to all those guys HA HA


----------



## Dollystanford

another example, I've never fancied redheads - not once

but Michael Fassbender could bang me into the middle of next week, he has *it*


----------



## pidge70

Dollystanford said:


> another example, I've never fancied redheads - not once
> 
> but Michael Fassbender could bang me into the middle of next week, he has *it*


I never cared for redheads either but, Eric Stoltz......Holy Hell!


----------



## that_girl

I like a man who can laugh at himself. I like a man who doesn't take shet too seriously. Responsibility is a must, but after the bills are paid, it's time to play!

I can't STAND men who have to be right all the time, even when it's clear they are wrong. Men who can't open their minds and accept another opinion or who have to argue everything to the death. Holy crap. Turn off. (I just described my ex! LOL!)

But the initial, primal attraction is their entire presence. The *it* factor. Some people have it, some don't. 

The only other man I have truly loved before H was Indian (from India). He was gorrrgeous. A rebel (by Indian standards), a musician, COMPLETELY out of control (in a good way), creative, passionate about life, amazingly affectionate and I was just consumed.

After we broke up, I hit an all time low for about 3 years. It took me 7 years to get over him completely. It was something I'd never experienced before. I was constantly looking for *it* and I just couldn't find it. I dated some really good men, but they didn't have *it*.

My husband had/has *it* and it was more than I thought it would be. Completely surpassed my previous love. And he was/is hotttttt.


----------



## Dollystanford

Even dressed as a Nazi!


----------



## that_girl

Eric Stoltz in Some Kind of Wonderful.  !!

But again, it's the presence. And he was an artist in that movie. Completely sexy to me. When I met my H, and we were in his bedroom for the first time, I was in awe. He had HUGE contemporary wall murals all over his room that he had painted. So here he was, Mr. Responsible Man with fast cars and motorcycle...tattoos and a strong self of self....AND he's a PAINTER!? holy crap. Do me.


----------



## pidge70

> Eric Stoltz in Some Kind of Wonderful. !!


Duuuuuude! Holy Hell! That is when I fell in lust with him!


----------



## pidge70

> Even dressed as a Nazi!


Better as Magneto....


----------



## that_girl

pidge70 said:


> Duuuuuude! Holy Hell! That is when I fell in lust with him!


Because he was "that guy"! The strong, quiet underdog who had a job and a sense of self. He laughed at the jocks and hung out with DUNCAN! omg...Duncan :smthumbup:

And in the end, he got Watts...who, in my opinion, was one cute piece of ass.  Did I just say that? omg. That kissing scene is one of my favorites. "Dude, you're good."


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Trenton said:


> Not necessarily. The looks are secondary to the personality for me. I could be attracted to someone for sure who did not fit my ideal look but fit perfectly with my desired personality traits.
> 
> I believe with SA looks are first with personality coming second.


 This is very true of me. He doesn't have to be a knock out, but I MUST find him desirable, someone I would notice & check out from afar & think "mmmm, he's not bad".... Just like a Guy....it's a Yes, NO, Never if hell freezes over - thing upon 1st sight... 

If my husband gained 20 lbs..I may love him but the attraction would be waning badly.... I am admittedly very shallow & visual in this way. So is he...so it's not an issue for us. 

It was interesting to learn... from my own Mother...why she didn't enjoy sex with my dad..(which led to many fights & a divorce)....she told me my dad was "too husky"... it was a turn off to her, she likes them lanky too... I guess it's in the genes. 



> *pidge70 said*: I never cared for redheads either but, Eric Stoltz......Holy Hell!


Liked him best with long hair too







Must be my fetish.


----------



## Dollystanford

Even better in 'Shame' with his big alpha c*ck out


----------



## pidge70

Dollystanford said:


> Even better in 'Shame' with his big alpha c*ck out


----------



## that_girl

:rofl: Alpha c*ck.

What is a beta c*ck? lolol. Oh dear.


----------



## Dollystanford

actually regardless of the c*ck, what does it for me is his acting skillz, his ability to act with his face without saying a word, his voice, the slight smile he does rather than the cheesy grin, the fact that he seems like FUN

a man has to be FUN whatever form that may take for you personally (please note, the notion of 'fun' differs from woman to woman *gasp*)


----------



## Dollystanford

that was slightly tongue in cheek TG


----------



## that_girl

Dirty.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Dollystanford said:


> gawd SA, I just wanna take a pair of clippers to all those guys HA HA


And everytime I see Daughtry







I think to myself... "damn he would look better with some hair!!"... bald guys don't do it for me at all...I noticed you said you like that. 

Funny how different we are ~ but a blessing for the men, we are not all the same ! 



pidge70 said:


> I thought Axl Rose was hot back in the day......


I agree.. Only back in the day! He is a recluse today I guess. We all look BEST in our "prime".


----------



## pidge70

Dollystanford said:


> that was slightly tongue in cheek TG


What else do you have poking your cheek?.... :rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## that_girl

I noticed one thing my exes have in common-- they wore a lot of black. lol. Except my "ex". He was very much a hipster. Looked homeless, but wore labels. Lame. lolol.

But yea, the black factor. I think 90% of my husband's wardrobe is black.


----------



## that_girl

pidge70 said:


> What else do you have poking your cheek?.... :rofl:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


hence my "dirty" comment.


----------



## Dollystanford

how dare you cast aspersions on my good name!

none of my exes have anything in common, other than they weren't dumbasses.


----------



## pidge70

> We all look BEST in our "prime".


I suppose Joe and I are in our "prime" now as I feel we are hotter now than in our 20's.....


----------



## that_girl

Yea, I felt awkward in my "prime". I feel great now!


----------



## Dollystanford

so there we have it gents

does that answer your question?


----------



## that_girl

To sum it up: It's different for every woman. Somewhere, someone has the hots for you.


----------



## Dollystanford

Although perhaps we're all wrong and SINITTA said it best

So Macho


----------



## that_girl

:rofl:


----------



## SimplyAmorous

that_girl said:


> Yea, I felt awkward in my "prime". I feel great now!


I would take both our LOOKS 20 yrs ago...grab his higher sex drive back there...combine that with my uninhibited attitude of TODAY (sexually this is my prime)...Oh well.... we missed it some...but at least he isn't bald with a beer belly...so this I celebrate. 












> *That Girl said: *To sum it up: It's different for every woman. Somewhere, someone has the hots for you.


Yes.... Trenton said.... "I am attracted to men who are shorter than average." This is not something you hear too much...so you just never know what us women are looking for.


----------



## that_girl

I like men who are my height. Or maybe 2 or 3 inches taller. I am 5'6", H is 5'9. I dated really tall men before (6'4" and over) and just didn't like it. I love H's little Latino "soccer body". lol.


----------



## Gangland

jaquen said:


> Nope, didn't say that. This conversation hasn't been in the context of those are are actually doing this stuff, and seeing improvement. I've already stated, multiple times actually, that IF something is working for a person, more power to them. Doesn't matter one iota what I think if a person is doing all this and getting real, significant, lasting results. I'm happy for them no matter how they arrived.


So you didn't say that the men on this board have no clue what they're talking about? Or you "think" but don't know that it's not working for them?
[/Quote]



jaquen said:


> So encouraging men to mine deep, get therapy if necessary, do the heavy lifting of digging into themselves to discover their most authentic, unique self is telling them to go back where they started?
> 
> I'd sure like to know how you arrived at that conclusion from everything I've said. I know for a fact, in my own life, that this kind of introspective work sure hasn't led me "back where I started".
> 
> There is a vast difference between finding out who you truly are, how you tick in this world, and just returning to the broken, familiar places you came from.
> 
> You didn't understand that difference, so you returned to your weakness, instead of digging deep and finding your strength (whatever your strengths are).


Come on now insults? I haven't insulted you yet Jaqueen. In fact I've complemented you, I had no weakness. I was doing the things I actually believed worked. These were things I truly believed were me, I had been doing them all my life and getting laid remember? The problem wasn't any weakness. It was a way of thinking.

The key to understanding the difference is what? You can tell as many people as you want to do the introspective lifting. Nobody knows what that even means. Sit and think about it? I have no clue.

The way I arrived at my understanding is I failed at "acting" alpha. You're trying to bypass the failure part and just get to the authentic self. You can't do that with thought, or therapy. It takes real world action. Real world trying and failing.



jaquen said:


> Are you actually reading what I'm writing in this thread? If the "alpha" behavior is authentically you, and not a cheap mask you're wearing in order to appear like some stereotypical idea of what a man "should" be like, than you GOT IT. It's you. That's who you are. It works for you, and that's ultimately all that matters.
> 
> Congratulations.


Did I not say before this paragraph that we agreed here? Why are you even responding to this?


You're missing the part where the cheap mask was needed in order for me to get to the part where the alpha was authentic. This is part of why they prescribe this stuff. How can you know what's authentic without knowing whats not?

Believe me, I did the heavy lifting, I did the thinking, I didn't do the therapy because I wasn't quite as well off as I am now, but I even started meditating. I did this for almost a year, in the end yes I did feel a little bit closer, but I eventually hit a wall with this. The Alpha Beta thing helped me break through this wall and so of course I'm going to prescribe it.


----------



## jaquen

It's amazing to read 40 some odd pages of underdeveloped assumptions about what women want, and then BOOM, in a few pages you see a cornucopia of variety just explode all over the place.

This type of talk should be very encouraging to men. It should remind them that yes, it takes ALL types.

Thank you ladies. You're beautiful, every last one of you.


----------



## AFEH

Cosmos said:


> Some of us simply find it too tedious to even comment in these sort of threads anymore.


Obviously not tedious enough. But still, exceptionally ironic.


----------



## jaquen

Gangland said:


> Come on now insults?


You saw that as an insult? That was not the intention. I apologize.



Gangland said:


> The Alpha Beta thing helped me break through this wall and so of course I'm going to prescribe it.



Good, great, awesome. I'm glad it worked out for you.


----------



## Gangland

To the ladies, and 

Nobody said you are all going to bang the alpha or act without your head. That's just silly.

I'm not saying that you actually do anything at all. Only that you'll feel some attraction, in the same way I'm not out banging every hot chick I see, but I still feel attraction. It's not a choice. I don't think "those are boobs, I should be attracted to boobs," and then feel attraction. I'm just attracted to boobs. and to say that I don't respond to that, even if it's subtle like a smile, would be lying.

That response is what being alpha in a marriage is trying to illicit.
The extra smile. The slightly happier demeanor. and if its your goal more sex. etc.

I've said in a previous posts I didn't turn into an ass, and my behaviors aren't cookie cutter alpha.

Alpha gets a bad rep because women don't like the idea that they are attracted to what logically seems like they shouldn't be.

I'll give you an example and I know this is an anecdote but I'm just proving a point:

I was with a lady friend once at a bar. Her friend had just gotten flowers, and huge dinner from her boyfriend at the whole nine yards.

Her: Aww that's sweet, I'd love a guy like that, where are all the good ones you know?

Me: Really you'd like a guy like that?

Her: Of course, what he did was really nice, I don't think any girl would NOT like that.

Me: have you ever dated a guy like that?

her: Well no.

Me: Exactly.


Now that's just one girl, but studies show that the majority of girls bang the 20% (give or take). Regardless of the fact that more than 20% of men are nice, good providers, giving, loving and or all the things women say they want. Does it not then make sense that the attractive ones are the 20% and from there does it not make sense that the reason the 20% is attractive is because they have traits that make them different from the other 80% and from that does it not make since that if you want to be like the 20% you have to take on said traits?

The kicker comes when you realize that the trait that makes the 20% different is that they are authentically themselves. Trust me if you are authentically you, somebody will think you are a jerk because in order to truly reach out into the world and extract from it what you want, you have to be at least a little selfish. Not every day all the time, and not to everyone, but you will. There's no other way. This is my perception of what Alpha is. the behaviors are just a pointer. And I believe that this has been posted in the manosphere elsewhere.


----------



## pidge70

All that damn math hurts my female brain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dollystanford

Don't worry your pretty little head Pidge
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen

Gangland said:


> I'll give you an example and I know this is an anecdote but I'm just proving a point:
> 
> I was with a lady friend once at a bar. Her friend had just gotten flowers, and huge dinner from her boyfriend at the whole nine yards.
> 
> Her: Aww that's sweet, I'd love a guy like that, where are all the good ones you know?
> 
> Me: Really you'd like a guy like that?
> 
> Her: Of course, what he did was really nice, I don't think any girl would NOT like that.
> 
> Me: have you ever dated a guy like that?
> 
> her: Well no.
> 
> Me: Exactly.


What exactly are you saying with this anecdote? That women, in their heart of hearts, don't want to be treated to dinner, or get flowers, or other overt, romantic displays of affection?




Gangland said:


> Now that's just one girl, but studies show that the majority of girls bang the 20% (give or take).


Can we get a link for these studies? I'd definitely be interested in reading them. Thanks.


----------



## Deejo

jaquen said:


> Can we get a link for these studies? I'd definitely be interested in reading them. Thanks.


Study? No. 

But this sums it up quite nicely ... unless you presume that most women on a dating site are lying.

Dr. Helen: "As OK Cupid has demonstrated, women rate 80 percent of men below average."

And do check out the comments, apparently our conversation isn't all that different either.

And for the record, I'd ask folks to pay attention to the subtext, which is what everyone seems to consistently and utterly, go off the rails about.

Women are attracted to a man who demonstrates certain behaviors, and if she is already attracted and he further demonstrates those behaviors ... she is more attracted.

This isn't rocket surgery people ...


----------



## oldgeezer

Deejo said:


> Study? No.
> 
> But this sums it up quite nicely ... unless you presume that most women on a dating site are lying.


Oh, no, I'm sure they're not lying. I'm also sure they're not even a remotely accurate sampling of "women" in total. 

I notice from the descriptions the willing ladies had that the "can't find the description for" quality that attracted them is NOT something that's going to be quantifiable by simply observing men who get laid a lot or achieve high social status or get obvious sexual attraction vibes from overtly readable women and trying to figure out what behavior they have in common. Not even THEY can, even after years of looking, define what THAT is. THIS is where I think the entire alpha / beta / whatever argument turns into complete horse manure. 

Yeah, there are stereotypical women who are attracted to stereotypical men and do stereotypical things in stereotypical ways. 

And they're small in number. Both the men and the women. I just think we notice because men notice women who flaunt their appeal - and women notice other women who flaunt their appeal to get noticed and get their way - men generally appreciatively and women negatively. So, it impacts our observations and discussions, yet I think it's pretty useless in giving advice on how to be more attractive to your wife. 

After all, if you weren't that when she was attracted in the first place, becoming it isn't likely to be the key to re-finding that attraction. 

However... All of that being said... 

The advice to get fit, dress well, stop being afraid of your own shadow, stop being subservient, and all the other "get some maturity and unlearn bad habits" advice that's couched in some of the "man up" and "be more alpha" is certainly not wrong. 

After all, being 150 lbs overweight certainly can be repulsive. Especially if he / she married you when you were not. Much of this stuff is just common sense and plain old "get your act together" stuff. 

But the idea that you can identify, by watching overt or outstanding characteristics of people who have overt reactions, what makes a woman attracted to HER man, I think is just plain... old horse manure. 

Many of us, however, do not develop the observational and relationship skills we need as we go through life to keep and cultivate our relationships. And if as much effort was made to figure out what those are, as has been poured into the alpha male stereotyping stuff, there would be a whole lot more useful information conveyed.


----------



## that_girl

Trenton said:


> And he was the stereotypical "nice guy" and yet such an example of a nice guy who knew himself well enough but was also open to recognizing he may be wrong.


Yea. Which goes back to my "nice guy with strong boundaries" isn't a bad thing. 

But whatever. "WHERE'S THE F&CKING MONEY, KEITH!"

Man, I love that scene.


----------



## pidge70

that_girl said:


> Yea. Which goes back to my "nice guy with strong boundaries" isn't a bad thing.
> 
> But whatever. "WHERE'S THE F&CKING MONEY, KEITH!"
> 
> Man, I love that scene.


I love that whole movie!


----------



## Caribbean Man

Trenton said:


> You want a woman to share the rest of your life with you and who wants to continually have sex with you and you damn well better plan on being yourself, take her into consideration and understand that although you may know some basic statistics that create a general view of women, the woman who is perfect for you is statistically not likely to use a study as a reason to spend her life with you, through good or bad. She also may not be the one for you and so you have to have the courage to face that and tenacity to recognize that there is another woman out there who would be a better fit.


Trenton,
Let me ask a simple question based on your views in the paragraph above.

Josh is his own GENUINE SELF. No " Alpha BS." Josh gets married to wife #1. He finds out that she is not the one for him over time.
They divorce. 
He dates a little and get married again to wife #2,who in his mind he thought he had a real * connection * with. He realizes that she is also not the one for him.H eis still the same " genuine self" he has always been. 
he divorces wife #2
Josh dates some more and then meet the love of his life. She completes him. They get married. Somewhere along the line bride # 3 begins to disappoint . But Josh has remained his same genuine self.
What should he do now. Was it his fault , that all three marriages failed?
what should he do?


----------



## BjornFree

Caribbean Man said:


> Trenton,
> Let me ask a simple question based on your views in the paragraph above.
> 
> Josh is his own GENUINE SELF. No " Alpha BS." Josh gets married to wife #1. He finds out that she is not the one for him over time.
> They divorce.
> He dates a little and get married again to wife #2,who in his mind he thought he had a real * connection * with. He realizes that she is also not the one for him.H eis still the same " genuine self" he has always been.
> he divorces wife #2
> Josh dates some more and then meet the love of his life. She completes him. They get married. Somewhere along the line bride # 3 begins to disappoint . But Josh has remained his same genuine self.
> What should he do now. Was it his fault , that all three marriages failed?
> *what should he do?*


He needs to marry a rich old heiress.


----------



## pidge70

Seems like "Josh" has some commitment issues.


----------



## Caribbean Man

pidge70 said:


> Seems like "Josh" has some commitment issues.


But what should Josh do if he is his GENUINE SELF?


----------



## that_girl

Stop getting married.


----------



## Lyris

Not getting the Eric Stoltz love, have to say. I like Johnny Depp. 

That_Girl said it best. It's 'it'. Can't define it, but you know it when you see it/smell it/feel it.

I like high cheekbones, dark eyes, dark hair, full lips. Sculptured face, like certain Japanese guys or that long haired Native American actor in Dances With Wolves.

Swimmers' body, lean and not too tall. 

But I've also been attracted to a total opposite Brad Pitt type, because he had 'it'. Something to do with intensity, passion and a bit of complication in there somewhere. 

And scent. That's the most important of all. The way my husband smells still makes me dizzy when we kiss. 

So there, I answered the question after all. Go ahead and dismiss it. 

An an aside, Gangland can you stop referring to women as girls? It's insulting, That_Girl already pulled you up on it and the fact you're continuing to do it is really coming across as passive aggressive.


----------



## oldgeezer

Caribbean Man said:


> But what should Josh do if he is his GENUINE SELF?


What of it? 

What if he's faking being alpha male? 

None of this matters, really, the point is that along the way Josh and / or his chosen brides made big mistakes. Being your genuine self does not insulate you from being fallible, nor does attempting to change yourself into being more like something else. 

Until you actually know yourself, improvement is an act. Not exactly the stuff of life-long happiness.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Am I the only one that thinks that Josh needs to take a good look at himself and make a change?
Isn't he the common denominator in all three marriages?
So can his GENUINE SELF be the problem?

So can the same not apply to Jack who is his GENUINE SELF and was also married three times , cheated on and disrespected by all three wives?

Its up to every man to accept or reject any concept of his genuine self. People change,and can change themselves. What I considered my " genuine self " changed drastically when I started dating my wife. The person I am today is not the young groom she married 17 years ago. I have changed for the better.
That's what she is attracted to.There is always something _different_ about me.

"..Men at some time are masters of their fates.
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars
But in ourselves, that we are underlings.."
Julius Ceasar. 
William Shakespeare.


----------



## Caribbean Man

oldgeezer said:


> What of it?
> 
> What if he's faking being alpha male?


:scratchhead::scratchhead:
Damn.


----------



## pidge70

Are Jack and Josh brothers?


----------



## oldgeezer

Caribbean Man said:


> Am I the only one that thinks that Josh needs to take a good look at himself and make a change?
> Isn't he the common denominator in all three marriages?
> So can his GENUINE SELF be the problem?


Sure. It could be that he's a terrible judge of women. It could be that he's an act that changes once he "gets the girl". It could be that he has a whirlwind fling and gets married in 2 weeks to every one of them, it could be that he's dull as watching paint dry, but knows how to spot a vulnerable woman and play on her feelings. It could be that that's he's an alpha and so are the women, but they clash so bad they end up hating each other... 

In other words, you can't prove squat from sequences about Josh, his wife or wives, and your effort to tie "genuine self" as something less than desireable to it as a fault is groundless. 

Should I stop there, or should I really get going on the lack of logic in your post?


----------



## oldgeezer

Ok, seriously... I don't REALLY think that it's being advocated that men put on an act to attract their wives... but in all the stuff I read (this site and a few others), it certainly lends itself to giving that impression and to a LOT of men, it looks like something you can just make into an act, without really, TRULY changing the inner you. 

That's why so many responses on this theme. 

Further, as men we all have pre-conceived notions of what attracts women. I'm sure there's as many of them as there are of us, but a lot of them are quite similar, and I think we're mostly wrong. We stumble into success accidentally while pursuing them, though. Maybe even sometimes they're right. 

But if we understood more about how to truly communicate, along with our wives, and we learned how to, and really DID pay better attention to working at a relationship, we'd be more likely to succeed anyway, whether we're right initially or not.


----------



## Amyd

I have nothing of value to add. I just like to post on popular threads.


----------



## oldgeezer

Amyd said:


> I have nothing of value to add. I just like to post on popular threads.


You just cracked me up totally! 

Thanks for the diversion!:smthumbup:


----------



## Gaia

Amyd said:


> I have nothing of value to add. I just like to post on popular threads.


Best post as of yet imo. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Amyd

oldgeezer said:


> You just cracked me up totally!
> 
> Thanks for the diversion!:smthumbup:


I could have come up with "something" but it was easier just to tell the truth.


----------



## Amyd

Gaia said:


> Best post as of yet imo.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cantmove

I mean no disrespect, but I personally think a lot of this line of thinking is horse $hit, but hey that's just me. None of you have a clue as to what I'm attracted to and why. Nor what it would take to keep me attracted. We are all different and I can't be pigeon holed with the rest of the unique women around here. I do have a question though that I think is relative. I need someone to tell me, is this person alpha?

Let's call him x. So x seems really confident, let's say ****y on the outside. He is very attractive, intelligent, funny, well rounded. He can fix things, build things, cook, hold a room's attention like nobodies business. 
Yet when he isn't agreed with, he's questioned, he isn't constantly told how awesome he is, or is ever asked nicely to do something a different way in bed, he looks elsewhere. He looks for a woman who never questions his word, agrees with everything he says, strokes his ego at all times, and accepts that his way is the best way in bed. I would love to know is this man alpha?


----------



## Dollystanford

hell no, that's my ex husband!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

cantmove said:


> Let's call him x. So x seems really confident, let's say ****y on the outside. He is very attractive, intelligent, funny, well rounded. He can fix things, build things, cook, hold a room's attention like nobodies business.
> Yet when he isn't agreed with, he's questioned, he isn't constantly told how awesome he is, or is ever asked nicely to do something a different way in bed, he looks elsewhere. He looks for a woman who never questions his word, agrees with everything he says, strokes his ego at all times, and accepts that his way is the best way in bed. I would love to know is this man alpha?


On the outside he oozes ALPHA appeal... but on the inside he is very immature and NON Alpha...or the dark Alpha...wants his way, selfish, demanding thinks he is owed something BECAUSE so many women want him. 

He is sorely lacking GOOD Beta qualities and this is what makes him detestable.


----------



## jaquen

Deejo said:


> Study? No.
> 
> But this sums it up quite nicely ... unless you presume that most women on a dating site are lying.
> 
> Dr. Helen: "As OK Cupid has demonstrated, women rate 80 percent of men below average."
> 
> And do check out the comments, apparently our conversation isn't all that different either.


Dating site info is incredibly poor data to pull from.

First off it's a sampling of people who are there largely because, for whatever reason, finding people in their offline life isn't easy. While plenty of attractive, interesting people have profiles on dating sites, these online serves are hardly collections of the biggest fantasy types out there. How many Charlize Therons are on OK Cupid? How many Channing Tatums?

Which brings up another factor entirely. There is a vast difference between stating an ultimate fantasy on a dating site, and actually dealing with real world, face to face attraction. How many women would rate a man online as "below average", when they themselves, by the same criteria, are likewise "below average", and will more than likely end up with one of these plethora of "below average" men? But in their online worlds, where fantasy finds a voice, of course these women will rate plenty of men as below their ultimate fantasies. When given the chance to express your ideal, you very seldom undersell. A perfectly good guy might seem "below average" when asked, if her fantasy profile is trying to hook some fantastical catch you'd see in a Matthew McConaughey flick, or in a romance novel. There is a world of difference between most people's ideals, which often sway toward the unrealistic, and the reality of dating.

As I said earlier, men and women equalize one another beautifully; typically likes end up with likes. A man might, when asked his ultimate preference, might find plenty of great ladies to be "below average", because his ultimate fantasy is a Victoria Secret's model, or the cutest girl from his high school. But what are the chances he's going to become involved with a Vicky's model? About the same chance that your typical OK Cupid! woman is going to land Johnny Deep.

Lets stop pretending that the so called, unsupported 80% of women who only want the 20% alpha/big dog/can-get-any-woman-he-wants, are even in the position to LAND those men. 

Let's also stop pretending that women are idiots, and that they can't tell the difference between having a fantasy, and loving their reality.


----------



## cantmove

SimplyAmorous said:


> On the outside he oozes ALPHA appeal... but on the inside he is very immature and NON Alpha...or the dark Alpha...wants his way, selfish, demanding thinks he is owed something BECAUSE so many women want him.
> 
> He is sorely lacking GOOD Beta qualities and this is what makes him detestable.



Oh, he's detestable!


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> So you think you can tell what women want and then translate that into getting the woman who is perfect for you or developing self help techniques for men from this that translate into a man getting sex more from a long-term relationship where sex has fizzled? What are the statistics on this working?
> 
> Attraction, even further attraction, does not lead to a life lived together through all the crap that happens and whatnot. It opens the door but it may or may not be withstanding the test of time & shared experience.
> 
> It certainly should not apply to men who are in relationships where the wife has walked away or walked all over the man. How can it? The man writing the posts knows darn well more about that woman than any study and if he doesn't, perhaps that's part of the problem.
> 
> You want a woman to share the rest of your life with you and who wants to continually have sex with you and you damn well better plan on being yourself, take her into consideration and understand that although you may know some basic statistics that create a general view of women, the woman who is perfect for you is statistically not likely to use a study as a reason to spend her life with you, through good or bad. She also may not be the one for you and so you have to have the courage to face that and tenacity to recognize that there is another woman out there who would be a better fit.


The dating site stuff is subjective I suspect. If I'm being honest, my rejection rate of potential matches is much higher than 80%.

I don't care about statistics. I don't care about winning anyone over or pitching this as a panacea. I have said as much before.

I thought the concepts of being alpha, and game were crap.

Never thought it would work ... for me.

Then I figured I'd actually learn something about and try it, fully expecting that any modern, special, bright, unique as a snowflake 21st century woman would see right through all of it, and either laugh at me or slap me.

And to my astonishment that didn't happen. Not once. Quite the opposite happened in fact.

Imagine my utter disappointment.

I'm interested in what works. 

And at this point it is difficult for me to take anyone seriously that THINKS they know its all chicanery and crap ... and that it would never work or they would never fall for it.

Because I have now experienced both sides.

I don't fret about what women want. I focus on what I want.


----------



## Deejo

cantmove said:


> I mean no disrespect, but I personally think a lot of this line of thinking is horse $hit, but hey that's just me. None of you have a clue as to what I'm attracted to and why. Nor what it would take to keep me attracted. We are all different and I can't be pigeon holed with the rest of the unique women around here. I do have a question though that I think is relative. I need someone to tell me, is this person alpha?
> 
> Let's call him x. So x seems really confident, let's say ****y on the outside. He is very attractive, intelligent, funny, well rounded. He can fix things, build things, cook, hold a room's attention like nobodies business.
> Yet when he isn't agreed with, he's questioned, he isn't constantly told how awesome he is, or is ever asked nicely to do something a different way in bed, he looks elsewhere. He looks for a woman who never questions his word, agrees with everything he says, strokes his ego at all times, and accepts that his way is the best way in bed. I would love to know is this man alpha?


Nope. He suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder. He's mentally ill. 

I'm comfortable making that call because I was involved with a woman whose ex was exactly as you describe.

You really think that behavior is anything remotely that would be advocated here?


----------



## jaquen

Deejo said:


> The dating site stuff is subjective I suspect. If I'm being honest, my rejection rate of potential matches is much higher than 80%.
> 
> I don't care about statistics. I don't care about winning anyone over or pitching this as a panacea. I have said as much before.
> 
> I thought the concepts of being alpha, and game were crap.
> 
> Never thought it would work ... for me.
> 
> Then I figured I'd actually learn something about and try it, fully expecting that any modern, special, bright, unique as a snowflake 21st century woman would see right through all of it, and either laugh at me or slap me.
> 
> And to my astonishment that didn't happen. Not once. Quite the opposite happened in fact.
> 
> Imagine my utter disappointment.
> 
> I'm interested in what works.
> 
> And at this point it is difficult for me to take anyone seriously that THINKS they know its all chicanery and crap ... and that it would never work or they would never fall for it.
> 
> Because I have now experienced both sides.
> 
> I don't fret about what women want. I focus on what I want.


And? Two of my best friend are classic "alpha" types, and one put in the work to become more like an "alpha", when it comes to women. They were all able to have plenty of sex partners through the years.

All three, however, struggled with real, long time relationships unlike any of the other male friends I have. One finally found his first real relationship at 31 years old, having been supremely lonely despite all the ass in the world; the other is the same age and is working like hell to make it work with the one woman he's ever seen beyond just a walking vagina; the last one, the guy who turned Alpha, is still single, and truthfully no longer has any idea how to be in a real, committed relationship. All he knows is quick, meaningless sex.

What's good for the superficial dating world is NOT often good for marriage, or LTR. Most of the women they burned through on sex, and lite dating, ended up with real relationships, and marriages, while they are still trying to find their footing beyond the plethora of sex.

Incidentally I once went out with the first two alpha types I mentioned. These are very attractive guys who were great at playing the game; again, no problem at all getting attention from women. We went to a place called Jaspers, which on Friday evenings doubled as both restaurant and casual lounge. The three of us end up sitting at this table with three or four very lovely women. My two "alpha" friends poured on the charm; they do the flirting, do the game playing, the whole nine yards. And it is working; the ladies are pulling pulling out the giggles, their voices are heightened, they are right there in the game with them.

I was quiet up until this point. Then I decided to actually speak to these women like human beings, you know, equals, and not just potential ass. I asked one of them what she did for a living. She seemed almost shocked that I asked. Suddenly her voice drops, and she begins to talk about her career, her passions for that career, what school she went to, etc. And the one by one all the women at the table start to actually drop the giggles, and begin to open up to ME about themselves. My two alpha brothers, who I do love, were floored. Suddenly the women were no longer playing the game, and seemed intensely interested in carrying on a conversation with the one man at the table who was actually engaging them in real conversation. I'll never forget their faces, because they were stumped. They tried interjecting into the conversation with the techniques that were working earlier, and they were shut out at every turn. It was hilarious how pathetic, and lost, my boys looked.

Here's the thing; I've never played the alpha game. I didn't pretend to that night, even though it would have been easy to do. My boys techniques would have likely landed them yet another one night stand each. But who ended up with all the female attention? The man who did it his way. No games, no macho posturing, no alpha tricks, no BS.

You never know what a woman wants.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Well ,
whatever.

If itworks for you guys then by all means do it!
lol,If it ain't broke then don't fix it!
I know what works for _our _marriage.


Mine ain't broke, but I _constantly change_ and try to upgrade.
However,
YVMV
[ Your View May Vary]


Its 8.00 PM down here and its been raining for the entire afternoon.
Saturday night is " Salsa night " in our bedroom.
I'm full of energy and she's in the mood.
So I'm heading there early tonight.

Hope you guys have fun.......
Good evening


----------



## AFEH

^^ Didn’t realise it’s a pessing competition. It’s never been that way here before. You did introduce something new! Hey you're the Man!


----------



## Deejo

jaquen said:


> And? Two of my best friend are classic "alpha" types, and one put in the work to become more like an "alpha", when it comes to women. They were all able to have plenty of sex partners through the years.
> 
> All three, however, struggled with real, long time relationships unlike any of the other male friends I have. One finally found his first real relationship at 31 years old, having been supremely lonely despite all the ass in the world; the other is the same age and is working like hell to make it work with the one woman he's ever seen beyond just a walking vagina; the last one, the guy who turned Alpha, is still single, and truthfully no longer has any idea how to be in a real, committed relationship. All he knows is quick, meaningless sex.
> 
> What's good for the superficial dating world is NOT often good for marriage, or LTR. Most of the women they burned through on sex, and lite dating, ended up with real relationships, and marriages, while they are still trying to find their footing beyond the plethora of sex.
> 
> Incidentally I once went out with the first two alpha types I mentioned. These are very attractive guys who were great at playing the game; again, no problem at all getting attention from women. We went to a place called Jaspers, which on Friday evenings doubled as both restaurant and casual lounge. The three of us end up sitting at this table with three or four very lovely women. My two "alpha" friends poured on the charm; they do the flirting, do the game playing, the whole nine yards. And it is working; the ladies are pulling pulling out the giggles, their voices are heightened, they are right there in the game with them.
> 
> I was quiet up until this point. Then I decided to actually speak to these women like human beings, you know, equals, and not just potential ass. I asked one of them what she did for a living. She seemed almost shocked that I asked. Suddenly her voice drops, and she begins to talk about her career, her passions for that career, what school she went to, etc. And the one by one all the women at the table start to actually drop the giggles, and begin to open up to ME about themselves. My two alpha brothers, who I do love, were floored. Suddenly the women were no longer playing the game, and seemed intensely interested in carrying on a conversation with the one man at the table who was actually engaging them in real conversation. I'll never forget their faces, because they were stumped. They tried interjecting into the conversation with the techniques that were working earlier, and they were shut out at every turn. It was hilarious how pathetic, and lost, my boys looked.
> 
> Here's the thing; I've never played the alpha game. I didn't pretend to that night, even though it would have been easy to do. My boys techniques would have likely landed them yet another one night stand each. But who ended up with all the female attention? The man who did it his way. No games, no macho posturing, no alpha tricks, no BS.
> 
> You never know what a woman wants.


Ah ... So you do use game. Kudos. Presuming you haven't read any PUA material, I can assure you that what you pulled off over your buddies is the very reason game theory exists. You demonstrated higher value than either of your big dog dude friends.

I really see no point in this as a pi$$ing match, honestly.

I don't think I know better than anyone else.

I know what has worked for me and what has not. My insight and input is colored by that lens.

And to be clear, I'm not an alpha. Would never define myself as such.

In contrast to CM, I am going to snuggle on my couch with my 7 and 10 year old and watch Madagascar 3.


----------



## jaquen

Deejo said:


> Ah ... So you do use game. Kudos. Presuming you haven't read any PUA material, I can assure you that what you pulled off over your buddies is the very reason game theory exists. You demonstrated higher value than either of your big dog dude friends.


Uh, no. I talked to the women like I was raised to talk to women; as my equals, and human beings. I didn't grow up with "game", as I've described before. 

And considering that I wasn't interested in a single lady there, since I was with my now wife and very happy, there wasn't even any intention to woo, impress, or book even so much as a number or email address.

That's my issue. Too many of you dudes think everything is a game, and all is in service of vagina.



Deejo said:


> I really see no point in this as a pi$$ing match, honestly.


Nope. Just offering a different perspective. Isn't that the point, to offer experiences that back our perspectives?



Deejo said:


> In contrast to CM, I am going to snuggle on my couch with my 7 and 10 year old and watch Madagascar 3.


Sounds like a great way way to spend an evening. Enjoy!


----------



## Machiavelli

In Absentia said:


> the research on the dark triad as mating strategy is based on college students... even Wikipedia warns the readers about this...
> 
> The concept of alpha males and women attracted to them is sexist because is a gross generalisation and implies that all women like alpha males. Which is not true. If a were a woman, I would be offended.


It in no way implies that all women do anything. Since you like Wikipedia, here's some reading for you on a little something called "the bell curve": the normal distribution is commonly encountered in practice, and is used throughout statistics, the natural sciences, and the social sciences as a simple model for complex phenomena.

Dark triad attraction has been observed far outside of college dormitories. Look at all the women who want to penpal with serial killers. Now that's some extreme dark triad attraction. Or read some in CWI about married women dumping their Deltas for total Dark Triad losers living in mom's basement.


----------



## Ikaika

Off topic - how the hell did Dr. Helen get tenure at U of Alaska... I can't find any peer-reviewed publications by her. She summarizes with some fancy graphs, but provides no methodology for her work. She disregards normal population statistics. I don't think she provided credible evidence for her summary. One can't just conclude without giving me a story to follow.


----------



## Soccerfan73

I don't pretend to have the answer to any of this, or to really even take any sides on the "What is an Alpha" debate. 

But I do know for me it really just comes down to taking on challenges and being more comfortable with myself than I ever was before. 

I'm 39 and have spent a majority of my life being indecisive and very stereotypically "nice". I would go along with whatever woman I was with at the time would want, would try to "repair" things that went wrong, etc. "Oh, you cheated. Did something I do lead to this?" etc. 

A couple of of years ago I was cheated on and dumped by my wife. It's one of those long stories, but you've read it here 1,000+ times and it doesn't stray from the typical story. 

About 12 months ago, I lost my job of 20 years due to the company being sold. I was a workaholic and my job in many ways defined me. 

It was at that point I really was lost. As lost as I've ever been. I had to deal with a lot of these things head on. At first it was horrible. I felt like melting. But then an odd thing happened.....It started slolwy.... I dealt with the job loss by getting another job. It was totally different, and I took on the challenge and did fairly well. That led to another offer, this being a manager of a department. THAT scared me, but I took it on and have fortunately been very successful. 

For an introvert to have to deal with many people every day and make quick decisions, I was a fish out of water. But I survived. And soon started thriving. It was something that would have made me want to run and hide a year ago, but now I'm in another position making a lot more money and getting respect from peers on a daily basis like nothing I ever had before at my other job. My self worth has improved dramatically. 

How I approached women during the last few months has changed as well. I was so scared I would need about 10 green lights before I would even ask a woman out. Now I'm honestly not so afraid of failure. For the first time in my life I met a girl this summer and instead of hemming and hawing for 4 months about it, I just was the "aggressor" and pursued her. 

We have a VERY fun relationship, and the sex is the best I've ever had. I'm not afraid of taking the lead in the bedroom and she enjoys that a lot. 

No, I don't think being more Alpha means I should take a 2 x 4 and hit pretty girls on the head and bring them home. Or that I should be a prick and try to dominate them. 

But it just means I'm not going to live in fear anymore. It's okay to fail. I really like my girlfriend a lot. I hope things advance forward. But I won't do any "rug sweeping" if things bother me, even if it means potentially losing her. 

Honestly, I think it's just about taking on things that scare you. And being comfortable with yourself. However that fits on the Alpha/Beta grid I'll let others decide. I just know it's worked for me. 


***Just my 2 cents from a guy who has had a very interesting year.***


----------



## Machiavelli

jaquen said:


> It's amazing to read 40 some odd pages of underdeveloped assumptions about what women want, and then BOOM, in a few pages you see a cornucopia of variety just explode all over the place.


I see a wide variety of Sigmas and zero Alphas, Betas, Gammas. I can't say I'm surprised. SA's seems to have a Delta/Gamma. She's way out on the bell curve with that one, but she does admit to going for the Sigmas in the past.


----------



## Machiavelli

cantmove said:


> I need someone to tell me, is this person alpha?
> 
> Let's call him x. So x seems really confident, let's say ****y on the outside. He is very attractive, intelligent, funny, well rounded. He can fix things, build things, cook, hold a room's attention like nobodies business.
> *Yet when he isn't agreed with, he's questioned, he isn't constantly told how awesome he is, or is ever asked nicely to do something a different way in bed, he looks elsewhere. He looks for a woman who never questions his word, agrees with everything he says, strokes his ego at all times, and accepts that his way is the best way in bed.* I would love to know is this man alpha?


Deejo called it: NPD. He needs narcissistic supply, when that stops he has to find a new source. Narcissism is one of the Dark Triad traits and has a lot to do with why these types don't usually have LTRs. They do pull the women, though it's usually short term.


----------



## Machiavelli

jaquen said:


> Incidentally I once went out with the first two alpha types I mentioned. These are very attractive guys who were great at playing the game; again, no problem at all getting attention from women. We went to a place called Jaspers, which on Friday evenings doubled as both restaurant and casual lounge. The three of us end up sitting at this table with three or four very lovely women. My two "alpha" friends poured on the charm; they do the flirting, do the game playing, the whole nine yards. And it is working; the ladies are pulling pulling out the giggles, their voices are heightened, they are right there in the game with them.
> 
> I was quiet up until this point. Then I decided to actually speak to these women like human beings, you know, equals, and not just potential ass. I asked one of them what she did for a living. She seemed almost shocked that I asked. Suddenly her voice drops, and she begins to talk about her career, her passions for that career, what school she went to, etc. And the one by one all the women at the table start to actually drop the giggles, and begin to open up to ME about themselves. My two alpha brothers, who I do love, were floored. Suddenly the women were no longer playing the game, and seemed intensely interested in carrying on a conversation with the one man at the table who was actually engaging them in real conversation. I'll never forget their faces, because they were stumped. They tried interjecting into the conversation with the techniques that were working earlier, and they were shut out at every turn. It was hilarious how pathetic, and lost, my boys looked.


So...you eventually scored with how many of the four? Did you nail any of them the same night?


----------



## Conrad

Machiavelli said:


> So...you eventually scored with how many of the four? Did you nail any of them the same night?


Or ever?


----------



## Ikaika

Machiavelli said:


> I see a wide variety of Sigmas and zero Alphas, Betas, Gammas. I can't say I'm surprised. SA's seems to have a Delta/Gamma. She's way out on the bell curve with that one, but she does admit to going for the Sigmas in the past.


How exactly did you come to this conclusion by the volume of dribble posted here? It seems to me that you have some peculiar knack or ability to read a post and assume you know the person. And, you would conclude me to be?


----------



## Soccerfan73

A lot of it comes down to perception.


----------



## Ikaika

Soccerfan73 said:


> A lot of it comes down to perception.


So if it is perception than it would come down to a woman then picks a mate based on *her* perception and not to some analytical classification? What then would be the point of labeling a person?


----------



## Machiavelli

drerio said:


> How exactly did you come to this conclusion by the volume of dribble posted here? It seems to me that you have some peculiar knack or ability to read a post and assume you know the person. And, you would conclude me to be?


All of them were sexually attractive to women, presumably not just to the women how posted, and they seem to be doing their own thing and were not part of the social structure presided over by the Alpha.


----------



## Ikaika

Machiavelli said:


> All of them were sexually attractive to women, presumably not just to the women how posted, and they seem to be doing their own thing and were not part of the social structure presided over by the Alpha.


Sorry, don't mean to be offensive but this is word salad. I read this sentence five times and drew no conclusion.


----------



## Holland

Just give me a real man. Not one that plays games or has to change who he is at his core.

By all means become the alpha from a career POV if it warrants it but not to get chicks.

If a woman had to change who she was at her core to get men then people would say she was shallow.


----------



## Deejo

Thanks for sharing this.

This is why I still chime in on the subject.

This is why I get annoyed when others insist that 'manning up' or whatever the hell you want to call it, is selfish, misogynistic, doesn't work, makes no sense, or makes you a fraud.

The folks who believe that don't get it, and importantly, don't want to get it. And that's ok too. 

The Original Poster of this thread most certainly did not frame my perspective on the matter. But ... if he feels better about himself and his wife feels better about him, and both are happy as a result, who gives a fig?



Soccerfan73 said:


> I don't pretend to have the answer to any of this, or to really even take any sides on the "What is an Alpha" debate.
> 
> But I do know for me it really just comes down to taking on challenges and being more comfortable with myself than I ever was before.
> 
> I'm 39 and have spent a majority of my life being indecisive and very stereotypically "nice". I would go along with whatever woman I was with at the time would want, would try to "repair" things that went wrong, etc. "Oh, you cheated. Did something I do lead to this?" etc.
> 
> A couple of of years ago I was cheated on and dumped by my wife. It's one of those long stories, but you've read it here 1,000+ times and it doesn't stray from the typical story.
> 
> About 12 months ago, I lost my job of 20 years due to the company being sold. I was a workaholic and my job in many ways defined me.
> 
> It was at that point I really was lost. As lost as I've ever been. I had to deal with a lot of these things head on. At first it was horrible. I felt like melting. But then an odd thing happened.....It started slolwy.... I dealt with the job loss by getting another job. It was totally different, and I took on the challenge and did fairly well. That led to another offer, this being a manager of a department. THAT scared me, but I took it on and have fortunately been very successful.
> 
> For an introvert to have to deal with many people every day and make quick decisions, I was a fish out of water. But I survived. And soon started thriving. It was something that would have made me want to run and hide a year ago, but now I'm in another position making a lot more money and getting respect from peers on a daily basis like nothing I ever had before at my other job. My self worth has improved dramatically.
> 
> How I approached women during the last few months has changed as well. I was so scared I would need about 10 green lights before I would even ask a woman out. Now I'm honestly not so afraid of failure. For the first time in my life I met a girl this summer and instead of hemming and hawing for 4 months about it, I just was the "aggressor" and pursued her.
> 
> We have a VERY fun relationship, and the sex is the best I've ever had. I'm not afraid of taking the lead in the bedroom and she enjoys that a lot.
> 
> No, I don't think being more Alpha means I should take a 2 x 4 and hit pretty girls on the head and bring them home. Or that I should be a prick and try to dominate them.
> 
> But it just means I'm not going to live in fear anymore. It's okay to fail. I really like my girlfriend a lot. I hope things advance forward. But I won't do any "rug sweeping" if things bother me, even if it means potentially losing her.
> 
> Honestly, I think it's just about taking on things that scare you. And being comfortable with yourself. However that fits on the Alpha/Beta grid I'll let others decide. I just know it's worked for me.
> 
> 
> ***Just my 2 cents from a guy who has had a very interesting year.***


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> When you consider how many varied experiences and dna combinations there are out there, it's beyond me how anyone could argue that human beings aren't more like snowflakes than not. To think differently is just so convenient. Snowflakes have similarities just as human beings do, and like all things, you can find patterns.
> 
> You're a snowflake too. Deal with it.


----------



## BookOfJob

Soccerfan73 said:


> ......
> I think it's just about taking on things that scare you.
> ......


Excellent, Soccerfan, more power to you!


----------



## In Absentia

Machiavelli said:


> Look at all the women who want to penpal with serial killers.


Sorry to pick just one thing out of your totally unproven theories... but how many of these women are out there? Have you got any statistics to back this up? It seems to me that anybody these days can come up with totally unproven theories (let's call them "studies") and push them to prove facts which don't exist. They are still theories and are not proven... just because it's a "study". It's an observation.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Soccerfan73 said:


> *A lot of it comes down to perception.*


Many years ago when I was in marriage counselling,the counsellor told me something that has resonated in my mind since.

She said to me during a on to one session:

"...D...[ my first name ], a person's perception is often times their reality.*We sometimes interpret what we see and call it reality..*."

Maybe it helped that she was also a good friend of mine, but from then I knew I had to either change my perception, or have enough " balls" to do something about it.


----------



## Machiavelli

drerio said:


> Sorry, don't mean to be offensive but this is word salad. I read this sentence five times and drew no conclusion.


Look, if you don't like the label "Sigma", just call them The-social-lone-wolves-who-do-their-own-thing-yet-are-still-sexually-attractive-to-over-fifty-percent-of-women. 

See, *"Sigma"* is just a label. Kind of like *"Aspie."* Ring any bells?


----------



## Machiavelli

In Absentia said:


> Sorry to pick just one thing out of your totally unproven theories... but how many of these women are out there? Have you got any statistics to back this up? It seems to me that anybody these days can come up with totally unproven theories (let's call them "studies") and push them to prove facts which don't exist. They are still theories and are not proven... just because it's a "study". It's an observation.


These would be called hypotheses, not theories. But once one has personally observed the behavior outside the lab in the wild, one really doesn't need to wait to read the peer reviewed article in _Annals of Vaginal Lubrication_ to start applying the principles for one's own benefit.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Machiavelli said:


> SA's seems to have a Delta/Gamma. She's way out on the bell curve with that one, but she does admit to going for the Sigmas in the past.


I looked this up quickly ....found this, if it is accurate... Then I found this thread too >> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/46682-alpha-betas-delta-etc.html



> And there are men who are deemed "beta" by default because they don't feel the need to go around and act like a complete jackass or hooligan. I deem these type of males "Delta Males" and "Gamma Males" respectively.
> 
> *Delta Males*: These kind of guys put off a good front of acting like they're "Alpha males" by conforming into whatever is fashionable and admired by the masses. Most of these men (if you can call them that) need a lot of assurance by society to the point of having little backbone to think for themselves. Sure, many Delta males are surrounded by "friends" and are good at get their fair share of girls by "wooing" them with some pop-culture nonsense (whether it's A&F-style gauche preppiness or poser hip-hop wannabe thuggishness), but that crowd and attention is more imperative for their self-esteem than anything else. For if you take away all of the girls from them and get these same males by themselves, a Delta male's personality completely changes and their "true self" is revealed. Many of these kind of guys are rather weak-minded, crowd-pleasing, conformists who aren't even worthy of the name "Covert Betas" and "Betas in the Closet."
> 
> *Gamma Males*: These kind of dudes are more or less self-reliant, self-motivated, and self-assured in their own personality that no one can change their ways. Some of these kind of males are considered loners, but this is not to case for all Gamma Males. Because of their stern personality, many people tend to write off these men as "Betas" by default because they won't conform to being whatever "Chic Alpha" trait exists during that time period.
> 
> The man who's confident in his own self-worth and looks is said to go a long way with what women want. But as for recent times (I'll say since the early 2000s), most females are more impressed with being "wooed" with inane attributes, something that most Gamma males will refuse to do unless their original personality is what woos the female. These men, until recently, have had no problems getting with "American females" but recently, even these males are getting thrown in the "weak male" shelf because of their lack of conforming to the masses.
> 
> Though getting women - even in today's time - isn't as much of a problem as it is for the "stereotypical Alpha Male," this is still a concern for quite a few Gamma males who were either born too recent (those in their teens and twenties) or those who live in areas where narcissism and American pop-culture rule the minds of the masses.


*By these definitions my husband is NOT a Delta,* he never tried to put on any fronts, acting like any Alphas...nope. Never used any pop culture anything. He just was who he was, it's as simple as that. His personality was the same with EVERYONE, so this does not fit in any way shape or form. 

He however does feel this way "*and there are men who are deemed "beta" by default because they don't feel the need to go around and act like a complete jackass or hooligan*". My husband has 0 respect for people who act like Pricks, he thinks they are all A$$wipes. If that is how they get women, go to it, but he wouldn't lower himself. He doesn't like those type of people at all, he works with a few of them, we get alot of :rofl: out of their sheer egotistical natures & the







they spill everyday - this one thinks all the waitresses want him when he goes to the bar...my husband has to suffer listening to all of this... sometimes I am almost laughing on the floor with the things he comes home & tells me. 

His boss is also a Pompus a$$, funny but he is the peacemaker for all these idiots. Acually they LIKE him & have even faught over working with him -cause they can't stand each other. 

*A GAMMA MALE*... yes, this appears to FIT Machiavelli..... My husband would call himself a Loner.. he never followed the crowd in high school either for any acceptance, you either liked him or you didn't, he didn't care. He'd manage. My husband is not a conformer to any masses. And he is a genuine nice guy. I happen to Love these things about him though. 

It said this on Mortituri's TAM thread about "Gammas ...


> ... the obsequious ones, the posterior puckerers, the nice guys who attempt to score through white-knighting, faux-chivalry, flattery, and omnipresence "


..... I wouldn't say he over does it in any of these things, he is not a flatterer at all. Just speaks the boring old truth the way it is. I happen to like that, cause many times - it's damn funny! 

He had a friend who was a big flatterer, it annoyed the hell out of me -he seemed so fake to me... I used to make fun of him...then he went to the Army and turned into a Son of a B...... Yes, my husband did want to rescue me when I was younger, he didn't like my home life -I wasn't treated right...it was out of genuine concern for me... of course he wanted to be MY white knight.... and he was.


----------



## In Absentia

Machiavelli said:


> These would be called hypotheses, not theories. But once one has personally observed the behavior outside the lab in the wild, one really doesn't need to wait to read the peer reviewed article in _Annals of Vaginal Lubrication_ to start applying the principles for one's own benefit.


exactly... hence this thread...


----------



## jaquen

Machiavelli said:


> So...you eventually scored with how many of the four? Did you nail any of them the same night?


I guess you missed this:

*And considering that I wasn't interested in a single lady there, since I was with my now wife and very happy, there wasn't even any intention to woo, impress, or book even so much as a number or email address.*

I don't cheat. I've never cheated. No matter how gorgeous a woman is, and I've been lucky enough to have some pretty fine women approach me, you don't betray the best thing that's ever happened to you.



Conrad said:


> Or ever?


I'm married to the "ever". The woman who still gets hit on constantly. The kind of woman who always respects me, ever adores me, and is pretty much the greatest human being I've ever been blessed to know.

How about you bro?


----------



## Machiavelli

SA, I think your husband could change his sexual hierarchy label in about 5 minutes, if he wanted to. The thing is all these labels are just attempts by dudes having a hard time getting laid to try to understand why females sexually respond to guys the way they do. Thus the observers hang the labels on behavior types but at the same time those same labels may be used for different types of guys by different observers. It's a useful, but limited system of categorization, because even "alpha" means different things in different contexts. 

And none of this really takes into consideration the guys who could nail everything that moves by simply unzipping their pants, but choose not to. In this day and age, that's pretty much limited to serious Christians and ex-Christians who still follow churchian sexual morality. Believe it or not, some guys make a decision to turn down a never ending variety of prime pvssy. These are guys who would be the high-scoring Sigmas and even Alphas, absent their religious convictions or the vestiges of previously held convictions. Most people, especially PUAs and women, can't imagine a guy turning down free pvssy under any circumstances. Of course, PUAs would call such men OMEGAS, as would the women. However, these guys would instantly be transformed into Alphas and Sigmas at the drop of a hat.


----------



## Machiavelli

jaquen said:


> I guess you missed this:
> 
> *And considering that I wasn't interested in a single lady there, since I was with my now wife and very happy, there wasn't even any intention to woo, impress, or book even so much as a number or email address.*


So, all you actually succeeded in doing was c0ckblocking your single friends. Nice going.


----------



## jaquen

Machiavelli said:


> So, all you actually succeeded in doing was c0ckblocking your single friends. Nice going.


So making the decision to talk to a group of lovely, interesting ladies, who were sitting literally face to face with me, is "c0ckblocking"?

What would you have recommended I do Mach, sit there like a quiet little good boy and not say a word?


----------



## jaquen

Machiavelli said:


> SA, I think your husband could change his sexual hierarchy label in about 5 minutes, if he wanted to. The thing is all these labels are just attempts by dudes having a hard time getting laid to try to understand why females sexually respond to guys the way they do. Thus the observers hang the labels on behavior types but at the same time those same labels may be used for different types of guys by different observers. It's a useful, but limited system of categorization, because even "alpha" means different things in different contexts.


This makes a lot of sense to me. 



Machiavelli said:


> In this day and age, that's pretty much limited to serious Christians and ex-Christians who still follow churchian sexual morality. Believe it or not, some guys make a decision to turn down a never ending variety of prime pvssy. These are guys who would be the high-scoring Sigmas and even Alphas, absent their religious convictions or the vestiges of previously held convictions. Most people, especially PUAs and women, can't imagine a guy turning down free pvssy under any circumstances. Of course, PUAs would call such men OMEGAS, as would the women. However, these guys would instantly be transformed into Alphas and Sigmas at the drop of a hat.


*Raises Hand*


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Machiavelli said:


> SA, I think your husband could change his sexual hierarchy label in about 5 minutes, if he wanted to.


 He wouldn't want to...and that is the thing, isn't it...... Without







(the whole package) he'd choose ol' rosy palms.....he's said this to me many times...with a serious face...when we talk about our past, if something happened to me...what would he do. etc

He doesn't lie. 

If this makes him a freak of nature.. he'll take the label, he is at the farthest end of a Player one could possibly get. It's not worth the screw to him - It would be hollow without the emotional. He feels the majority of women are not worth the effort anyway. 



> The thing is all these labels are just attempts by dudes having a hard time getting laid to try to understand why females sexually respond to guys the way they do.


 I get it, I think the reason I personally am repulsed by some of this , in regardds to dating anyhow...IS because it is the END ALL for getting more *casual sex*... I despise any "game" if this is the ultimate objective. I would hate to be single today, It would be one after another of these jokers to deal with ~ Wading through all the BS to get into my pants. 



> And none of this really takes into consideration the guys who could nail everything that moves by simply unzipping their pants, but choose not to. In this day and age, that's pretty much limited to serious Christians and ex-Christians who still follow *churchian sexual morality*. Believe it or not, some guys make a decision to turn down a never ending variety of prime pvssy. These are guys who would be the high-scoring Sigmas and even Alphas, absent their religious convictions or the vestiges of previously held convictions.


 This IS our oldest son, he is as stubborn as a MULE about that, believes in waiting for 1 special woman. How very rare it is. 



> Most people, especially PUAs and women, can't imagine a guy turning down free pvssy under any circumstances. Of course, PUAs would call such men OMEGAS, as would the women. However, these guys would instantly be transformed into Alphas and Sigmas at the drop of a hat.


 I do feel others would judge him in a heartbeat. And that is very unfortunate. Cause I agree with you, give him some "game", he'd be taking them down, I have no doubt. 

There are many men on TAM....by reading their posts...they feel CHEATED in their youth...because they didn't have the opportunity to BANG a variety of chicks...they weren't Hot enough....had they been able, they would have been all over that. 

This is just NOT the mindset of the men in my household. We're a very odd bunch indeed.


----------



## jaquen

SimplyAmorous said:


> He wouldn't want to...and that is the thing, isn't it...... Without
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (the whole package) he'd choose ol' rosy palms.....he's said this to me many times...with a serious face...when we talk about our past, if something happened to me...what would he do. etc
> 
> He doesn't lie.
> 
> If this makes him a freak of nature.. he'll take the label, he is at the farthest end of a Player one could possibly get. It's not worth the screw to him - It would be hollow without the emotional. He feels the majority of women are not worth the effort anyway.


That's because your husband doesn't view life through vagina colored glasses.

Men who do have a hard time understanding men who do not. That's been my experience at least.


----------



## TrustInUs

jaquen said:


> *That's because your husband doesn't view life through vagina colored glasses.*
> 
> Men who do have a hard time understanding men who do not. That's been my experience at least.


Sorry that made me :rofl:....


----------



## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> * It's a useful, but limited system of categorization, because even "alpha" means different things in different contexts. *
> 
> .


^^^^^^^^
This is what others and myself and others have been trying to say on this ENTIRE thread.
The principle is what applies,that's why it is GENDER NEUTRAL.
Those who try to hide behind the " scientific papers and studies" are missing the the point.
In any event, human sexuality and socio sexual behaviour is fluid and dynamic, and tend to push against previous boundaries.
Much of what was previously considered deviant sexual behaviour is now considered acceptable and normal.
Some of what Freud and Jung taught is no longer relevant to our cultural norms.


----------



## Deejo

jaquen said:


> That's my issue. Too many of you dudes think everything is a game, and all is in service of vagina.
> 
> Nope. Just offering a different perspective. Isn't that the point, to offer experiences that back our perspectives?


This is what I'm trying to get my head around.
By your own admission, you have done the very things that I would recommend to a guy that came here struggling to find himself, or that has lost himself in a relationship where his love isn't reciprocated.

You were heavy kid, so you got into weights and found that all of a sudden you weren't invisible to the opposite sex.
You place high value on yourself and your convictions.
You wouldn't tolerate being a doormat.
You follow a code of conduct and mutual respect.
You have a wife whom respects and loves you.
You work to meet her emotional needs, while still prioritizing your own.

Seriously, I'm not trying to corner you, trip you up, or 'win' this debate. I just don't understand why you despise or misinterpret the advice given here when the goal is pretty much exactly what you did?

What is it that bothers you?

I can tell you that I used to see it as openly disrespectful. But it isn't. It doesn't have to be. And it shouldn't be.

The goal is 'mutually assured satisfaction' for both parties. It isn't a score card where the guy has to win and the woman has to lose.

Most of the guys here either advocating for, or contributing to discussions to help men looking for reasons why their heart is broken, or they can't get out of their way ... are MARRIED. Happily. They aren't out chasing pu$$y, beating their chests, and putting women down.

They go home after working to provide for, go to bed with, and wake up to the woman they love. Just like you do.

Lots of guys that come here, want what you have. And lets be realistic ... if the advice were to end at, "Just be yourself." that wouldn't be terribly helpful to a guy whose 'self' just got dumped by the woman that used to love him.

Gonna bow out of this one for a while. I've pretty much said all I have to say on the matter.

Must say, that I appreciate that even in disagreement everyone has kept it above board for nearly fifty pages.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> *And none of this really takes into consideration the guys who could nail everything that moves by simply unzipping their pants, but choose not to. In this day and age, that's pretty much limited to serious Christians and ex-Christians who still follow churchian sexual morality.* Believe it or not, some guys make a decision to turn down a never ending variety of prime pvssy.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Another important point raised here.
If the Alpha concept portrays women as being incapable of saying no to the almighty penis, then what does it say for men who choose to no longer be ruled by their natural sexual urges, even when they are daily faced with opportunities?
That they are liars?
There are people, both male and female,who have made a conscious decision to use the power of choice.
Simply put, they have a DIFFERENT VALUE SYSTEM.
More evidence that people can and often times do CHANGE themselves.


----------



## jaquen

Deejo said:


> What is it that bothers you?


What bothers me is the often horrendous execution. I've seen some pretty horrid advice on TAM given to men who have nothing wrong with them. The default here, and with a lot of this type of advice elsewhere, is to tell a man that something is wrong with him, when ultimately his biggest mistake was marrying a sh*tty wife tha he should never have been with. A ton of the men here don't need to be told to alpha-up, or change at all. A ton of them need to just be told that their wives are ass holes, and that there are women out here who would freaking KILL to be with them. 

I needed to change because I knew something was wrong with me. I didn't need a book to tell me, I knew I was living an inauthentic existence. I was NOT essentially "myself" _at all_. I did the kind of work that I'm advocating. Getting to the core of self doesn't mean that you'll end up making the changes I made. It's not one-size-fits-all.

I have always said to use what feels authentic to you, what works. If all the alpha-verbiage gets you to your true self, then more power to you, all the way, and I mean that. But give a man OPTIONS. Don't have a man believing that if he doesn't fit very limited criteria for what an "alpha male" should be, than he's got to break his back to change his core personality. Do you know how many men out here are killing themselves to fit the PUA and Alpha models, when their best strengths lie elsewhere?

Self confidence, pride, being healthy and in shape, these aren't "alpha" traits. Those are good-human-being traits that every person, regardless of sex, deserves access to. 

The concepts, as executed here on TAM, make it seem like something is wrong with men like SA's husband, or my very best friend. The idea here is often to default toward telling a man that he's not good enough, man enough, if one, or even a couple, of women don't like him. I vehemently disagree with that. 

Another problem I have is that it lends itself to stigmatizing, marginalizing, and underestimating women. Big time.


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

If my husband changed his ways to become an "alpha" type, our marriage would not work.

I married him for the man who he is, not the man who he is not or who others want him to be.

My husband and I get along very well. We are a great team together. Neither of us tell each other what to do or try to run each other lives. We are a equal partnership.


----------



## pidge70

jaquen said:


> What bothers me is the often horrendous execution. I've seen some pretty horrid advice on TAM given to men who have nothing wrong with them. The default here, and with a lot of this type of advice elsewhere, is to tell a man that something is wrong with him, when ultimately his biggest mistake was marrying a sh*tty wife tha he should never have been with. A ton of the men here don't need to be told to alpha-up, or change at all. A ton of them need to just be told that their wives are ass holes, and that there are women out here who would freaking KILL to be with them.
> 
> I needed to change because I knew something was wrong with me. I didn't need a book to tell me, I knew I was living an inauthentic existence. I was NOT essentially "myself" _at all_. I did the kind of work that I'm advocating. Getting to the core of self doesn't mean that you'll end up making the changes I made. It's not one-size-fits-all.
> 
> I have always said to use what feels authentic to you, what works. If all the alpha-verbiage gets you to your true self, then more power to you, all the way, and I mean that. But give a man OPTIONS. Don't have a man believing that if he doesn't fit very limited criteria for what an "alpha male" should be, than he's got to break his back to change his core personality. Do you know how many men out here are killing themselves to fit the PUA and Alpha models, when their best strengths lie elsewhere?
> 
> Self confidence, pride, being healthy and in shape, these aren't "alpha" traits. Those are good-human-being traits that every person, regardless of sex, deserves access to.
> 
> The concepts, as executed here on TAM, make it seem like something is wrong with men like SA's husband, or my very best friend. The idea here is often to default toward telling a man that he's not good enough, man enough, if one, or even a couple, of women don't like him. I vehemently disagree with that.
> 
> Another problem I have is that it lends itself to stigmatizing, marginalizing, and underestimating women. Big time.


----------



## In Absentia

jaquen said:


> Another problem I have is that it lends itself to stigmatizing, marginalizing, and underestimating women. Big time.



It's also degrading and stereotyping...


----------



## pidge70

> If it works, where are the real life examples pouring in that it works?


Well now, if a man is *TRULY* *Alpha* he wouldn't need to brag about it.....or would he?


----------



## Deejo

Appreciate you taking the time to answer.
We aren't as far away from one another as it may look.

I think the words get in the way. Have said as much before. It's the 'doing' that matters, whether it's improving the relationship or letting go of it.



jaquen said:


> What bothers me is the often horrendous execution. I've seen some pretty horrid advice on TAM given to men who have nothing wrong with them. The default here, and with a lot of this type of advice elsewhere, is to tell a man that something is wrong with him, when ultimately his biggest mistake was marrying a sh*tty wife tha he should never have been with. A ton of the men here don't need to be told to alpha-up, or change at all. A ton of them need to just be told that their wives are ass holes, and that there are women out here who would freaking KILL to be with them.
> 
> I needed to change because I knew something was wrong with me. I didn't need a book to tell me, I knew I was living an inauthentic existence. I was NOT essentially "myself" _at all_. I did the kind of work that I'm advocating. Getting to the core of self doesn't mean that you'll end up making the changes I made. It's not one-size-fits-all.
> 
> I have always said to use what feels authentic to you, what works. If all the alpha-verbiage gets you to your true self, then more power to you, all the way, and I mean that. But give a man OPTIONS. Don't have a man believing that if he doesn't fit very limited criteria for what an "alpha male" should be, than he's got to break his back to change his core personality. Do you know how many men out here are killing themselves to fit the PUA and Alpha models, when their best strengths lie elsewhere?
> 
> Self confidence, pride, being healthy and in shape, these aren't "alpha" traits. Those are good-human-being traits that every person, regardless of sex, deserves access to.
> 
> The concepts, as executed here on TAM, make it seem like something is wrong with men like SA's husband, or my very best friend. The idea here is often to default toward telling a man that he's not good enough, man enough, if one, or even a couple, of women don't like him. I vehemently disagree with that.
> 
> Another problem I have is that it lends itself to stigmatizing, marginalizing, and underestimating women. Big time.


----------



## AFEH

jaquen said:


> What bothers me is the often horrendous execution. I've seen some pretty horrid advice on TAM given to men who have nothing wrong with them. The default here, and with a lot of this type of advice elsewhere, is to tell a man that something is wrong with him, when ultimately his biggest mistake was marrying a sh*tty wife tha he should never have been with. A ton of the men here don't need to be told to alpha-up, or change at all. A ton of them need to just be told that their wives are ass holes, and that there are women out here who would freaking KILL to be with them.


Spend some time in the Coping with Infidelity Forum. You'll see just how exceedingly incorrect you are.


No man on the planet marries a shetty wife, unless he's certifiable. But shet happens to even the best marriages and us guys help them deal with it.


----------



## AFEH

jaquen said:


> I've seen some pretty horrid advice on TAM given to men who have nothing wrong with them.


Come on, where's your evidence of the horrid advice. There's bound to be some somewhere, something off the wall.


But I reckon you'll have a tough time finding it amongst the thousands of posts containing good to excellent advice.


According to you TAM is plastered with horrid advice. So it wont take you what ten minutes to find 20 examples.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*This is an internet marriage and relationship forum*.
The people " giving advice" here are not all experts, most of them have been hurt and themselves have had serious problems in their marriages / relationships.

_Anything here can be a trigger for anybody._

For those of you who think horrible advice have been given to men who find themselves on the receiving end of bad relationships , because of this " Alpha BS" then maybe you should have a look at this thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/54474-husband-mentoring-young-girl.html

The OP left the thread several times very confused because of the horrible advice she was getting and her state of confusion. 

A woman desperate to save her marriage.
On the receiving of horrible advice from women whom themselves were struggling with their marriages.

_The moderators had to clean the thread several times._

I genuinely felt sorry for the OP. She has left for some time and her problem is still not resolved.

Several times on the thread she complained of her frustration.

As for the question of whether any man on TAM has benefited from NMNG, MMSL, and the whole Alpha concept, the evidence speaks for itelf.
I have been here on TAM just under five months and I CAN post more than FIVE inks to stories of men who have benefited in some way or the other and have come back and posted it.

Its one thing to dislike a concept because of how its expoused by its adherents.
*Its quite another thing to discredit in in the face evidence from people who have publicly stated that they have benefited from it.
*
So after all is said and done,where does all of this leave us?

Should the moderators now ban anyone from using the term Alpha because it offends some women?

That line of argument is borderline fanatical, and downright dishonest.


----------



## AFEH

jaquen said:


> It's not one-size-fits-all.
> 
> But give a man OPTIONS.



Hey here is your opportunity to define your way, your options. Come on some real concrete examples, not just another stream of rhetoric.


You know something the men here can take on board and help turn their life around.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jaquen said:


> The concepts, as executed here on TAM, make it seem like something is wrong with men like SA's husband, or my very best friend. The idea here is often to default toward telling a man that he's not good enough, man enough, if one, or even a couple, of women don't like him. I vehemently disagree with that.


 This is exactly how I feel many times.. I can't help it, it is there.... I should just ignore and be like my husband with his "I don't give a rat's azz attitude... I'm happy ... life is good" .. He seriously wouldn't care if people called him a pvssy, he'd just tell them he's a happy pvssy with a . Very little upsets him.

But it bugs me because so many (women included here) would judge my son for being how he is... "







he hasn't banged a chick & he is 22 yrs old -what the hell is wrong with him?" He also doesn't care what anyone thinks...he's proud.... It's just ME... Husband tells me I enjoy getting upset...he's probably right on this... So I throw myself in these conversations. 

Like you Jaquen.....I am soooo for *Authenticity* ... *being REAL*... *honest & true*.... *living with values*.... *taking care of your body* (it's the only one we have)...looking good - we should take PRIDE in these things... *Living with Integrity*....*keeping one's word*....*providing for / protecting your family*....* having a sense of Humor*, no one wants to be around a Stone face who can't take a joke.... If ones's emotionalism is causing them to act like a tearful little boy who is walking away with his tail between his legs ...damn right he needs to work on this before the ladies...He needs some of that "EDGE" (even did a thread on that HERE)


I guess I feel even these things play into your authentic self once you have pulled yourself out of the lower self esteem well that some may have previously been drowning in .....

Or if he is lazy, unmotivated, unfocused... has no direction/goals... all of this is working against him terribly in life - this all points to a self made loser, of course women don't want that , these are the leeches in society. 

I don't have a problem with these concepts, and I need to stop looking at them as a slight against THE MEN in my own life...they love & value who they are...they live with values & integrity.... and in it's own way, even if they would be labeled Gamma's.... it's still ALPHA damn it...in this sense anyway. 



jaquen said:


> That's because your husband doesn't view life through vagina colored glasses.
> 
> Men who do have a hard time understanding men who do not. That's been my experience at least.


 It is unsettling at times to be so very "against the wind" in modern society.....I can assure you he is not GAY...and he loves looking at naked women too (I don't have an issue with this- this is one way he is very normal!!)..... His way of dealing with his differences is ....staying quiet...to keep peace & saying with a nonchalant devious grin.... "I hate people"....which is funny, because he is very well LIKED by all. 

....My way is to speak out & defend the oddballs, even if it makes me look BAD... AFEH juming down my tail... I get the subtle feeling Deejo has about had it with me.....

Why should they not have a voice, I know it's a very small minority... but so what. We exist too....and I think we're pretty decent people.


----------



## AFEH

jaquen said:


> Don't have a man believing that if he doesn't fit very limited criteria for what an "alpha male" should be, than he's got to break his back to change his core personality. Do you know how many men out here are killing themselves to fit the PUA and Alpha models, when their best strengths lie elsewhere?


This is TAM. You know "Talk About Marriage".


It's not "Talk About Picking Up Women".


----------



## jaquen

AFEH, give it a rest. It's already been made perfectly clear that you and I aren't meeting in the middle here. We've been down this road before, and it always leads to a brick wall.

You can throw one of your usual barbs my way, you can goad, and prod, and challenge til the fat lady sings until her throat is raw, and it won't work. I don't entertain bullies.

You and I, thank God, don't see the world the same way. If your view is working for you, and you feel it works for others, awesome. Have at it, and enjoy. But if you seriously think I'm going to continue justifying myself to you, it's time for you to get real.


----------



## AFEH

jaquen said:


> AFEH, give it a rest. It's already been made perfectly clear that you and I aren't meeting in the middle here. We've been down this road before, and it always leads to a brick wall.
> 
> You can throw one of your usual barbs my way, you can goad, and prod, and challenge til the fat lady sings until her throat is raw, and it won't work. I don't entertain bullies.
> 
> You and I, thank God, don't see the world the same way. If your view is working for you, and you feel it works for others, awesome. Have at it, and enjoy. But if you seriously think I'm going to continue justifying myself to you, it's time you to get real.


Still absolutely no substance whatsoever.


Come on lets have something more than strawman arguments and rhetoric.


----------



## jaquen

AFEH said:


> Still absolutely no substance whatsoever.
> 
> 
> Come on lets have something more than strawman arguments and rhetoric.


This is just getting sad at this point.

Goodbye AFEH.


----------



## Machiavelli

jaquen said:


> So making the decision to talk to a group of lovely, interesting ladies, who were sitting literally face to face with me, is "c0ckblocking"?


Look, the women wanted to be scored. They were out to have fun. They were pulling their sleeves up, giggling, playing with their hair, arching their backs, and pumping their shoes with their toes and getting all worked up to a big climax and you made things all serious and dried things up.



jaquen said:


> What would you have recommended I do Mach, sit there like a quiet little good boy and not say a word?


Just sit back and enjoy the show or place bets on the winners. I never get too bored by it.


----------



## pidge70

jaquen said:


> This is just getting sad at this point.
> 
> Goodbye AFEH.


The ignore option is a lovely thing to engage. I know I enjoy it.....


----------



## jaquen

Machiavelli said:


> Look, the women wanted to be scored. They were out to have fun. They were pulling their sleeves up, giggling, playing with their hair, arching their backs, and pumping their shoes with their toes and getting all worked up to a big climax and you made things all serious and dried things up.


So the women becoming vigorously involved in an in depth conversation, that they were very much engaged with, was "drying" them up.

So basically I didn't c0ckblock my boys now, but I did the poor ladies who I forced to have conversation. I guess I forced their enthusiasm, and likewise forced the laughter that came with the convo? 

Alright. Some 10 years or so later, I think I can find a way to live with it.


----------



## that_girl

And that difference right there sums it up for me.

Watch the "show" or actually participate in it. Hm. I'd like the later, thanks. I don't care what "type" of man it is.


----------



## AFEH

jaquen said:


> This is just getting sad at this point.
> 
> Goodbye AFEH.


Sad?

The type of Alpha Jerks/Pillocks or whatever you talk about do not exist on TAM. Far less are they supported or championed here on TAM. That's the sad part of you.

Get it?

Which kind of makes all your rhetoric puerile.


Here we talk of manning up. You know a man becoming a Man. It's done in the main by the man changing his inner most values, beliefs and rules and taking care of them with healthy boundaries.


There are exceedingly High Quality Men here who have gone above and beyond to help other men (and women) out. All that obviously flies 75,000 ft over your head.


----------



## Deejo

SimplyAmorous said:


> ....My way is to speak out & defend the oddballs, even if it makes me look BAD... AFEH juming down my tail... I get the subtle feeling Deejo has about had it with me.....


And you would be very wrong SA. 
I like your style very much. 

My mantra remains unchanged in 4+ years; I support what works, even if it looks messy, awkward, makes people want to spit nails (You've been on the receiving end of that yourself at times, yes?)

I may want to deconstruct it, but I don't feel the need to break it.

For anyone that has a satisfying marriage, or single life for that matter, they get nothing but my respect and admiration. Don't feel compelled to tell anyone they are doing it wrong, if both parties are wearing smiles.


----------



## that_girl

YES. Manning up. Ie: having strong boundaries of self. 

Alpha, Beta...whatever. It's about boundaries.


----------



## AFEH

SA, you don’t get the Nice Guy stuff SA. You just don’t get it.


You know I don’t patronise, I’m not condescending. In my book they don’t come much more of a Man than your husband. It is not a trivial thing for a man to support his family as consistently and reliably as Mr SA. It is not trivial. The world needs a lot more of him and if there were it would be a finer place to be. With a lot more balanced children passing on healthy behaviour to their children.


The world in many cases has become truly screwed up due to the lack of Men like your husband. Forget all the alpha/beta stuff. It’s healthy boundaries that really count and I’m sure many could learn a thing or two from Mr SA.


----------



## AFEH

that_girl said:


> YES. Manning up. Ie: having strong boundaries of self.
> 
> Alpha, Beta...whatever. It's about boundaries.


Amen to that. It's what we talk about here in the Men's Clubhouse 

..... Hold on to Your NUTs: The Relationship Manual for Men: Wayne M. Levine: 9780979054402: Amazon.com: Books


Far better and more discerning than all the alpha/beta stuff. Helps a man become the man he wants to be.


----------



## that_girl

Yes. I mentioned having strong boundaries no matter what type of man you are classified as about 4,000 posts ago, and I was jumped all over as being a silly little female who "didn't get it". 

I get plenty. 

So, in reality, the thread shouldn't be called "Becoming the Alpha", but more "Becoming a man with strong boundaries". Not every man wants to be alpha, nor knows how to be. To me, it seems like a lot of work IF you are not so inclined to think that way. However, setting up strong boundaries is accessible to all people. It's important for everyone.


----------



## jaquen

that_girl said:


> Yes. I mentioned having strong boundaries no matter what type of man you are classified as about 4,000 posts ago, and I was jumped all over as being a silly little female who "didn't get it".
> 
> I get plenty.


There's a little short term memory loss going on in this thread.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> SA, you don’t get the Nice Guy stuff SA. You just don’t get it.


 I don't understand why you think this of me....I'm so confused.







If the man is acting like a chameleon *for acceptance*, *for love*, *for more sex*... he is not showing his authentic self, he is in hiding ...his motivations are all wrong...this is counterproductive.... against being assertive and showing his boundaries- because he cares about himself (as we all need to do), this promotes *respect *.... surely I agree with you. A lot of these men are ANGRY inside, passive aggressive, they are not nice at all.... Chameleons they have become, and they have lost their luster...badly. 




> You know I don’t patronise, I’m not condescending. In my book they don’t come much more of a Man than your husband. It is not a trivial thing for a man to support his family as consistently and reliably as Mr SA. It is not trivial. The world needs a lot more of him and if there were it would be a finer place to be. With a lot more balanced children passing on healthy behaviour to their children.
> 
> 
> The world in many cases has become truly screwed up due to the lack of Men like your husband. Forget all the alpha/beta stuff. It’s healthy boundaries that really count and I’m sure many could learn a thing or two from Mr SA.










AFEH.... Believe me, I know you wouldn't say anything you didn't mean. You are not exactly known for your flattery here at TAM. 

Got me all mushy over your words there ....in a good way.


----------



## T&T

Alpha-Beta, Meh...

"I am who I am" said Popeye the sailor man. 

I don't believe in "labels" People are constantly changing too. If they aren't they're not growing and maturing...


----------



## oldgeezer

Wow, this thread's still going... 

About a dozen pages back the three strong promoters of the theory all jumped on my case AFTER I had made the point that observing social status, or even sexual status which were assigned rankings - and then attempting to figure out what BEHAVIOR made them so was futile, since we're only observing the obvious behaviors. 

And now I see suddenly that two of them are now making my argument and Gangland is not here. 

Apparently, I was not clear. Back when some participants were attmpting to define in words what was sexually attractive in a man, I pointed out that we can only observe OVERT behaviors and we can only measure what we think is their effect on OVERTLY attracted women. 

The fact that not any of the women who attempted description could make an objective definition (and i'm sure the same is true of men... I can't write one either), means that any attempt to categorize behaviors is futile. Mere surface observation is not enough - it involves combinations of visual, verbal, physical and subtleties that defy description or even detection by mere observation. 

But "manning up" works. Why? Because it's not nearly as much about maleness and sexual attraction as it is being a healthy individual - male or female. There are no cases where we tell women to become submissive doormats to bring them happiness in marriage. Rather, we tell everyone pretty much the same thing, in regards to fixing an unhealthy dynamic between the two spouses. 

The same advice, if given to women and implemented results in women who gain attraction as well. 

All of this with ONE notable exception... we tell men to be the lead in the household, to take it back from his wife if she's taken it from him, and we never tell women to. 

In Genesis, after the fall of man, there's a curious verse about how a woman's 'desire will be unto her man'. To this day, we generally expect the man to lead and don't think we can have a successful marriage with a dominant or leading woman.

So, there we have it. Finally everyone gets around to agreeing with me, even if they don't realize it. The list of behaviors prescribed is mostly worthless. Our observational powers are insufficient to dig out what it REALLY is that works - and, in my view what works is subtle changes in dynamics that defy observation and description. But their CAUSE is change in attitude, thinking, and perspective.


----------



## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> I don't understand why you think this of me....I'm so confused.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the man is acting like a chameleon *for acceptance*, *for love*, *for more sex*... he is not showing his authentic self, he is in hiding ...his motivations are all wrong...this is counterproductive.... against being assertive and showing his boundaries- because he cares about himself (as we all need to do), this promotes *respect *.... surely I agree with you. A lot of these men are ANGRY inside, passive aggressive, they are not nice at all.... Chameleons they have become, and they have lost their luster...badly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AFEH.... Believe me, I know you wouldn't say anything you didn't mean. You are not exactly known for your flattery here at TAM.
> 
> Got me all mushy over your words there ....in a good way.


I think in some of the examples here on TAM the men are probably similar to your husband. Hard working, dependable, good minded and kind hearted. But some shet hits them big time and they just don’t know how to cope or what to do for the best. I think it fantastic when the men help them out here in the Clubhouse, Coping with Infidelity, General Relationship forum or wherever.

It’s kind of like a “spirit of man” or “spirit of the masculine” with those that have been through stuff giving out experienced and wise advise. Sure some is off the wall advise but it seems to me 95% is right up there with the best.


I’m not at all decrying or taking away what the women do to help, but women are in the main kind of known for that sort of thing. But to see, witness the men actually doing it was both a surprise and heartening for me when I first joined. I think it why I’m so exceptionally defensive towards all the good men here.


----------



## Halien

Trenton said:


> Another observation that can be made from this thread is that the philosophy of becoming alpha is being disagreed upon by many women. A man steps up, Jaquen in this case, and speak prolifically and it's such a nice thing to read.
> 
> Yes, the conversations are circular and have been hashed out over and over. Yes, the sticky still remains as do the men who insist that women just don't get it.
> 
> I really wonder how many men it has honestly helped over the long-term in either getting their wives back into a sexually fulfilling and committed relationship or moving on to better, more fulfilling relationships. Yet, in the years I've been here, I've read little about it and still the advice remains the same.
> 
> If it works, where are the real life examples pouring in that it works?


Sadly, I believe that becoming 'alpha', or whatever you call it, doesn't come with a person's realization that he has the need for a voice in his relationships, or even when a person tries to follow certain prescribed teachings. It comes after a hard-to-describe Eureka moment, when a person honestly recogizes his true self-worth in life, and can look into his capabilities with the same honesty. The scale will tip towards the 'alpha' side if this process ignites a certain drive to grow, and develop more meaningful relationships and impact in the lives of others. It implies that this growth has a particular reason. For me, personally, the reason revolved around wanting my life to have meaning, to recognize my ability to impact whether or not I get there. To try to never drift into inaction when it comes to keeping my marriage alive, and vital. I personally measure this 'meaning' through my marriage and my family. I'd be lying if I didn't admit that this transfers to my career, and a goal of making a difference in the roles in which I am placed. What little I know of alpha is summarized by being very focused on achieving internal goals, yet thriving on the realization that it always takes a joined purpose to get there.


----------



## that_girl

Halien, I felt that same way when my husband left. I completely 'womaned up' or 'humaned up' and it made all the difference.


----------



## Ikaika

Machiavelli said:


> Look, if you don't like the label "Sigma", just call them The-social-lone-wolves-who-do-their-own-thing-yet-are-still-sexually-attractive-to-over-fifty-percent-of-women.
> 
> See, *"Sigma"* is just a label. Kind of like *"Aspie."* Ring any bells?


It doesn't... Aspergers in the DSM-6 is no longer a diagnosis. Even autistic kids represent a spectrum along a normalized population curve... The are diagnosed as ASD. 

I suspect that one could suggest the same here. One can have characteristics without a label. But, to have a pure assumption of Alpha would represent less than 1% (normalized population curve) and likely genetics would be the overwhelming factor in those individuals. I think more than 1% of males are finding sexual partners who are also attracted to them.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> It’s kind of like a “spirit of man” or “spirit of the masculine” with those that have been through stuff giving out experienced and wise advise. Sure some is off the wall advise but it seems to me 95% is right up there with the best.


Basically you just want us women to mind our own business... stay out of it...* it's a MAN thing* ~ 
*Men need mentored by Men* ....(I know this is one of the suggestions/rules in the manning up process... a significant part of the growth)... no matter how much we THINK we understand, we Don't... and that is the bottom line. 

In "Hold onto your Nuts" -it says one of the sample NUTS is...

"*I take my problems to MEN, not women"*

In my marriage (though I was never disgusted by my husband -just not as sexual) - how common it is....I guess I count myself different than many wives & even he said he wouldn't care for that step (but then again, he didn't need it either)...even though he surely could have stepped up the assertive bar in our past. 

But I understand....that doesn't discount that other men WILL benefit and most be helped by OTHER MEN...and to keep the wife out of this process ~ here I will happily agree with you AFEH. :smthumbup:


----------



## Caribbean Man

*JAQUEN,*

I would like to ask you a simple question, as a brother on this thread.
I mean absolutely no offence.

Many women on this forum and even on this thread view pornography as demeaning exploitative and offensive to women.

In fact some of them have said that men who view porn are downright disgusting, going so far as to describe them as
" pigs."
Some of these women have problems with husbands who are porn addicts. So it is offensive_ to them._
You have clashed with a few women on this forum, because of your defence of male porn usage and masturbation in marriage.

*I fully support your right to express your views in defence of other men who use porn.*

My question to you is,
*Do you think that because your opinion on the topic of porn is offensive to women, that you should stop posting on the topic ,defending it and other men who use it?
*
I await your response.


----------



## Lyris

I have never seen Jaquen telling a woman poster here that she didn't honestlythink what she said, or that she didn't really feel that way, or that she might think she's different, but really she's just like every other woman. He's never written anything that suggests he sees women as anything other than free, complete, complicated human beings, worthy of the exact same respect and responsibility as men.

That has nothing to do with disagreeing with opinions about porn. It's perfectly possible to stand up for your opinions and boundaries without disrespecting and discounting others'.


----------



## Dollystanford

it's not 'offensive to women'

it's 'offensive to some women'


----------



## Caribbean Man

Lyris said:


> I have never seen Jaquen telling a woman poster here that she didn't honestlythink what she said, or that she didn't really feel that way, or that she might think she's different, but really she's just like every other woman. He's never written anything that suggests he sees women as anything other than free, complete, complicated human beings, worthy of the exact same respect and responsibility as men.
> 
> That has nothing to do with disagreeing with opinions about porn. It's perfectly possible to stand up for your opinions and boundaries without disrespecting and discounting others'.


Thank you for your response Lyris,
But you are wrong on every count except one.

You are correct when you say this has nothing to do with porn.
But nowhere in my post did I say that it had anything to do with porn.

I implied that the issue is FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION , in spite of whether all or a few women / men on TAM are offended by the idea what you or Jaquen or myself expouse.

Everything else you said in your post is false.

Nevertheless, I think Jaquen is capable of answering and quite frankly,
I HIGHLY respect* HIS *views EVEN WHEN I DON'T AGREE WITH HIM.


----------



## Holland

Caribbean Man said:


> *JAQUEN,*
> 
> I would like to ask you a simple question, as a brother on this thread.
> I mean absolutely no offence.
> 
> Many women on this forum and even on this thread view pornography as demeaning exploitative and offensive to women.
> 
> In fact some of them have said that men who view porn are downright disgusting, going so far as to describe them as
> " pigs."
> Some of these women have problems with husbands who are porn addicts. So it is offensive_ to them._
> You have clashed with a few women on this forum, because of your defence of male porn usage and masturbation in marriage.
> 
> *I fully support your right to express your views in defence of other men who use porn.*
> 
> My question to you is,
> *Do you think that because your opinion on the topic of porn is offensive to women, that you should stop posting on the topic ,defending it and other men who use it?
> *
> I await your response.


I think there are more women on this site that don't have a problem with porn than do. 

Your question makes little sense CM


----------



## that_girl

Also, Lyris' post wasn't wrong. I read what she said she hasn't seen and/or her opinion.

Hardly wrong.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Holland said:


> I think there are more women on this site that don't have a problem with porn than do.
> 
> Your question makes little sense CM



So the freedom to post on any topic on TAM depends on how many people are offended by the topic?
Can you direct me to that rule?

Or does the site admins and the moderators have a set of rules regarding what may and may not be posted and what type of behaviours are allowed?


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> Also, Lyris' post wasn't wrong. I read what she said *she *hasn't seen and/or her opinion.
> 
> Hardly wrong.


OK then you are correct if the emphasis is what* she* hasn't seen.
But it has happened, *but HE was man enough to apologize.*

*That's why I respect his views....*


----------



## Holland

Caribbean Man said:


> So the freedom to post on any topic on TAM depends on how many people are offended by the topic?


No that is not what I said. I think your perception of womens' POV on porn may be skewed.

You said jaquens opinion on the topic of porn was offensive to women, where do you get that from?
TBH I think jaquens opinion on most topics here (including this one) are pretty spot on if looked at from a woman's POV.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Holland said:


> No that is not what I said. I think your perception of womens' POV on porn may be skewed.
> 
> You said jaquens opinion on the topic of porn was offensive to women, where do you get that from?
> TBH I think jaquens opinion on most topics here (including this one) are pretty spot on if looked at from a woman's POV.


Well if you read my question to him,
You will find that I pretty much said the same thing. 
I FULLY SUPPORT HIS POSITION ON PORN.

And right on this page there are people whom I have clashed with regarding porn. so my position on how women view porn IS NOT SKEWED.

Also right on this page, there are more than FIVE women whose views on porn are diametrically opposed to his.

If they are honest enough they could identify themselves.

Furthermore, he has clashed with quite a few in the recent past,
AND I PUBLICLY,FULLY SUPPORTED HIM by posting supportive post along his.

So the question remains,
Should he temper his views or should he hold on to his views and feel free to post them anytime ?

Simple.

EDIT: Below is a link to ONE such thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/60393-porn-sex-vs-real-sex-6.html


----------



## oldgeezer

Caribbean Man said:


> So the question remains,
> Should he temper his views or should he hold on to his views and feel free to post them anytime ?
> 
> Simple.


Neither. He should be free to think what he wants, and he should engage some common sense and not push the issue if he finds a multitude of people being offended at his opinions. 

This forum has a purpose...and things that detract from that... Like this inane diversion... should be brought to an end.


----------



## Dollystanford

people have the right to post their views and other people have the right to agree or disagree.


----------



## Holland

> My question to you is,
> *Do you think that because your opinion on the topic of porn is offensive to women,* that you should stop posting on the topic ,defending it and other men who use it?


This part. His views on porn may be offensive to some women but you said point blank his views on porn are offensive to women. Wrong.
It is this sort of statement that helps grow the divide between men and women.

No one should have to temper their views as long as they discuss in a respectful manner. This place _is _over moderated though,


----------



## Caribbean Man

Dollystanford said:


> people have the right to post their views and other people have the right to agree or disagree.


*BINGO!*

So should the men who support MMSL , Alpha whatever , NMNG,and the rest of stuff that's " offensive " to the ladies of TAM stop posting their stuff?

If not, then how should they proceed?


----------



## Caribbean Man

Holland said:


> *No one should have to temper their views as long as they discuss in a respectful manner. This place is over moderated though*,


And that right there IS my point.


----------



## Dollystanford

they can post what they like, and people who don't like it can comment as they see fit
I'm not quite sure what you're jiving at?


----------



## Ikaika

Caribbean Man said:


> *BINGO!*
> 
> So should the men who support MMSL , Alpha whatever , NMNG,and the rest of stuff that's " offensive " to the ladies of TAM stop posting their stuff?


Nope, but neither should those who support this notion (this is not a hypothesis or a theory, since there are not measurable parameters), make grandiose assumptions of this is the way to up your sexual rankings. 

If the mere notion of trying to make yourself a better H and father is what this is all about, then I have no beef with it. I may be wrong, but it just appears that all to often there seems to be an extreme knee jerk reaction when one does not agree with this notion.


----------



## Holland

Caribbean Man said:


> And that right there IS my point.


But you didn't respond to my point. That you made a sweeping generalisation that another posters views on porn were offensive to women.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Dollystanford said:


> they can post what they like, and people who don't like it can comment as they see fit
> *I'm not quite sure what you're jiving at?*


You KNOW what I'm jivin at,

"Dolly knows best."


----------



## that_girl

I don't like porn. Thankfully it's not part of my marriage. Cool. I can disagree with porn, but if people use it, that's their business and their gamble. Awesome.

But....people can type whatever they like (respectably) and other people can agree or disagree.

Like this thread. Post what you want. I can disagree. So can many others.


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> I don't like porn. Thankfully it's not part of my marriage. Cool. I can disagree with porn, but if people use it, that's their business and their gamble. Awesome.
> 
> But....people can type whatever they like (respectably) and other people can agree or disagree.
> 
> *Like this thread. Post what you want. I can disagree. So can many others*.


So then,
Should those posters on this thread who post all that " Alpha stuff " that's offensive to [ some] or all women
[ generalization] continue posting their " Alpha stuff?"


----------



## that_girl

Someone will get offended by anything at every moment.

That's not a problem. Opinions are like ..well, you know the saying.

The problem is when the people who disagree get treated like they are idiots for disagreeing. Especially in this thread. There's a very weird underlying negativity towards the women in here. I dunno. I'm not fond of extremes though. I'm not a "black and white" kinda person. That's just me.


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> *The problem is when the people who disagree get treated like they are idiots for disagreeing. Especially in this thread. *


Well I've been viciously attacked on this thread TWICE because the posters disagreed with me.
And NOBODY came to my defence except Jaquen.

Jaquen was the ONLY person that had my back.
Again, that's why I RESPECT his views.
He is an HONEST poster.

Thankfully the posters apologized.


----------



## that_girl

That's good they apologized. I do think it's in your delivery though. You have every right to your opinion, but how I read what you write comes across very condescending and pompous. Again, this is the internet, so tone is NOT taking into consideration. I just know, that for me, reading your writing makes me defensive, and I'm not usually a defensive person.

ETA: Defensive isn't the word. Maybe more like, irritated.


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> That's good they apologized. I do think it's in your delivery though. You have every right to your opinion, but how I read what you write comes across very condescending and pompous. Again, this is the internet, so tone is NOT taking into consideration. I just know, that for me, reading your writing makes me defensive, and I'm not usually a defensive person.


Well,
Quite a lot of people on this forum _can_ come across as a lot of different things to me.
I don't allow it to bother me.
Sometimes people make snide remarks and I choose not to respond.
I have NEVER used the ignore function, nor have I EVER reported ANY POST to the moderator.

So should I start getting offended?
Or should I just continue " living and let live ?"


----------



## that_girl

Live and let live.


----------



## that_girl

Talk some shet along the way, but...stop calling people "wrong" just because they disagree. lol.

And if you are going to ignore someone, don't be all dramatic about it.  Seriously. Just ignore me. No skin off my back. It's all good.


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> *Live and let live.*


And that's my mantra on any forum I frequent.

I started a thread on ' Threesomes and so fourth " even though I am diametrically opposed to the idea.
But there are divergent views about it on TAM, so I wanted to know exactly why some people do it.

Different people have different views on any given topic or lifestyle.
Right and wrong at any given time are a function of power and not truth.

Very few topics here offend me. And absolutely nobody here irritates me.I can argue any topic and take any side, without getting offensive, defensive , or irritated.
_I know exactly what I believe._
In the end I am here to learn from other people's opinions and experiences. I try to help anyone who needs help or encouragement.


----------



## tobio

that_girl said:


> The problem is when the people who disagree get treated like they are idiots for disagreeing. Especially in this thread. *There's a very weird underlying negativity towards the women in here.* I dunno. I'm not fond of extremes though. I'm not a "black and white" kinda person. That's just me.


HIghlighted - I agree. Mainly why I haven't posted anything. It has permeated for pages now.


----------



## Lyris

Caribbean Man said:


> Thank you for your response Lyris,
> But you are wrong on every count except one.
> 
> You are correct when you say this has nothing to do with porn.
> But nowhere in my post did I say that it had anything to do with porn.
> 
> I implied that the issue is FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION , in spite of whether all or a few women / men on TAM are offended by the idea what you or Jaquen or myself expouse.
> 
> Everything else you said in your post is false.
> 
> Nevertheless, I think Jaquen is capable of answering and quite frankly,
> I HIGHLY respect* HIS *views EVEN WHEN I DON'T AGREE WITH HIM.


How can I be wrong about this?



> I have never seen Jaquen telling a woman poster here that she didn't honestlythink what she said, or that she didn't really feel that way, or that she might think she's different, but really she's just like every other woman. He's never written anything that suggests he sees women as anything other than free, complete, complicated human beings, worthy of the exact same respect and responsibility as men.


How can that be false? That makes no sense. Are you saying the sentiment is false? That Jaquen often makes dismissive and insulting generalisations about women and is incapable of seeing them as human beings? Well, I'd challenge that. 

I've disagreed with Jaquen lots of times, I think I even told him he was being smug and irritating once. He doesn't seem to bear me any ill will though, unlike you, frankly. I'm sensing significant hostility coming from you, and I'm not sure where it's coming from. I'm starting to think it's because I'm a woman who disagrees with you. 

And if you only wanted Jaquen to answer, then use the PM function.


----------



## Caribbean Man

There are MANY threads on TAM that are offensive to many people.

The moderators seem to always have to come in and either warn some posters, clean up a thread by deleting posts , ban some posters for attacking other posters or in some cases ban the OP.

There is another thread dealing with Anal sex and there are people who agree and those who are against. Debates are raging over there but nobody's complaining.

What's so special about this thread?

The CWI section of TAM is the most difficult one to manage because most of posters there who themselves have been cheated on , and they sometimes project their experiences.
Other times they attack the OP especially if the OP is the offending party.
Its all in a day's work for the mods on TAM.


----------



## that_girl

The difference is, unlike those debates where people are going back and forth with each other, no one is calling anyone wrong or saying the other person "doesn't get it". There is not the same vibe in the other debated threads. At least I don't see it that way. 

To me, and this is just my opinion, but it seems you don't really like being challenged by a woman. It seems to me that you don't like women to question your opinions or thoughts. Mind you, that's just MY take on how you present yourself. You seem to treat women like they are beneath you, and maybe that is what you think...no problem to me. If it's not what you think or believe, then be careful with your delivery of your opinion.

Granted, this is all what I think...I could be way off. If I am, then my apologies.


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> To me, and this is just my opinion, *but it seems you don't really like being challenged by a woman.* *It seems to me that you don't like women to question your opinions or thoughts.* Mind you, that's just MY take on how you present yourself. You seem to treat women like they are beneath you, and maybe that is what you think...no problem to me. If it's not what you think or believe, then be careful with your delivery of your opinion.
> 
> .


There is ABSOLUTELY no post that I have EVER made on TAM to support your statement, and I challenge ANYONE ON TAM to find one such statement.
Just a few pages ago on this thread, you challenged a statement I made and I told you that YOU WERE RIGHT.

In fact, of the handful of threads I have started the majority specifically asked for a WOMAN'S POINT OF VIEW ONLY.
I have done a specific thread dealing with ONLY women's view on POSITIVE ALPHA traits in WOMEN

I can go on and on.


----------



## that_girl

Ok. It's just the impression I get from the way you say things sometimes. Just an observation. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. No need to get all defensive.


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> *Ok. It's just the impression I get from the way you say things sometimes. Just an observation. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. No need to get all defensive.*


..but you just made a scurrilous accusation against me and you expect me not to defend myself?

So far you have accused me multiple times , and I have not made a single accusation against you.


----------



## oldgeezer

Caribbean Man said:


> ..but you just made a scurrilous accusation against me and you expect me not to defend myself?
> 
> So far you have accused me multiple times , and I have not made a single accusation against you.


Public advice, from a grovelling beta type: Quite being defensive and let it drop.


----------



## that_girl

Oh, you edited haha...well...hm. Yes, you do post a lot about women POV, etc...however, the delivery isn't taken well by us women (yes, I say us women). There's something in your approach that makes it almost mocking and very condescending when you do ask for women's POV.

Again, just what I have observed and what people have questioned to me in PM. Better to talk about it out here than just talk shet behind other threads or in PMs. Maybe you don't KNOW how you come across. Just thought I'd tell you how I see it....


----------



## that_girl

Caribbean Man said:


> ..but you just made a scurrilous accusation against me and you expect me not to defend myself?
> 
> So far you have accused me multiple times , and I have not made a single accusation against you.


I'm not accusing you of anything. I am saying how I feel about what you say. You may not have any idea how you come across. There is a tone. Even now, you cannot just reflect a moment. You have to point fingers and say I'm doing something to you. I'm not. I am not angry or saying you ARE doing something...it's just how I see it. I could be COMPLETELY wrong. If I am, then cool...I will try to read your writing without the tone. No harm.


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> I'm not accusing you of anything. I am saying how I feel about what you say. You may not have any idea how you come across. There is a tone. Even now, you cannot just reflect a moment. You have to point fingers and say I'm doing something to you. I'm not. I am not angry or saying you ARE doing something...it's just how I see it. I could be COMPLETELY wrong. If I am, then cool...I will try to read your writing without the tone. No harm.



Why don't you just give me an example of exactly what you want me to say and how you want me to say it, so that it comes across in the right way to you?

Maybe I should " grovel" and say only things you agree with?
Or maybe you prefer that I would just stop posting on TAM?


----------



## that_girl

I wasn't going to even reply but maybe you need examples. There was one where a woman asked what you were getting at when you stated something and instead of explaining yourself or your thoughts, you just repeated what you said, bolded it, and underlined it....like she was too stupid to read it the first time, maybe if it's darker and more pronounced it will magically make sense.

But no worries. I'll just not read into things. If you say you aren't being that way, then I believe you.

It's cool. It's been a good conversation. This whole thread made me see things WAYYY differently than I ever thought about men.


----------



## that_girl

Ok, you edited again...



> Maybe I should " grovel" and say only things you agree with?
> Or maybe you prefer that I would just stop posting on TAM?


Never did I say that you should stop posting or that you should grovel. But that's the tone I was talking about.. And I rest my case.


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> I wasn't going to even reply but maybe you need examples. *There was one where a woman asked what you were getting at when you stated something and instead of explaining yourself or your thoughts, you just repeated what you said, bolded it, and underlined it....like she was too stupid to read it the first time*, maybe if it's darker and more pronounced it will magically make sense.
> 
> But no worries. I'll just not read into things. If you say you aren't being that way, then I believe you.
> 
> It's cool. It's been a good conversation. This whole thread made me see things WAYYY differently than I ever thought about men.


What part of this is difficult to understand:

_"..I think men are capable of handling themselves.
We have been doing so quite well since the dawn of time...."
_

and how is it different from this post which YOU liked.

_"...*When did you get a vagina? Until you do, just stop telling or speaking on behalf of women.* I know what I believe and I sure as heck don't need some dude to tell me what I want. You are also wrong, for me at least. The simple fact that you think you know what women want and are so bold to speak for an entire sex, makes you sexual napalm to me. Tell me again about how I get turned on, I friggin dare you...."_

Page 1 , post#9 on this thread.


----------



## Maricha75

Caribbean Man said:


> Why don't you just give me an example of exactly what you want me to say and how you want me to say it, so that it comes across in the right way to you?
> 
> Maybe I should " grovel" and say only things you agree with?
> Or maybe you prefer that I would just stop posting on TAM?


CM, c'mon now. Honestly, I am with TG on this. I recall a thread where you asked a question and I answered... and even had a clarification in it. You quoted only the little bit I wrote and asked "well what about...?" whatever the thing was about. I had to go back and point out to you where I had already answered what you JUST asked. I do apologize if this offends you, but quite often, when I have read SOME of your posts, you have come across as arrogant. Now, I like to think that you aren't MEANING to come across that way, which is why I try not to respond in kind. But really, just the exchange you have had with Lyris and TG right now? Yea, that's the vibe I'm getting now. Like I said, I apologize if that is not how you are meaning to come across. Like TG, I will try not to read that in your posts.


----------



## that_girl

Ok. One last reply before I'm done.

I liked her post because I agreed. It's that simple. This wasn't about me or other posters or comparing the two. I was just bringing to light why you were getting some grief. I'd rather just say it than ignore it. I won't play this 'tit for tat' game with you. Good day.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Maricha75 said:


> CM, c'mon now. Honestly, I am with TG on this. I recall a thread where you asked a question and I answered... and even had a clarification in it. You quoted only the little bit I wrote and asked "well what about...?" whatever the thing was about. I had to go back and point out to you where I had already answered what you JUST asked. I do apologize if this offends you, but quite often, when I have read SOME of your posts, you have come across as arrogant. Now, I like to think that you aren't MEANING to come across that way, which is why I try not to respond in kind. But really, just the exchange you have had with Lyris and TG right now? Yea, that's the vibe I'm getting now. Like I said, I apologize if that is not how you are meaning to come across. Like TG, I will try not to read that in your posts.


Nobody is adjusting their style to please me, and I have never asked anybody to do so.
I have been " flamed " by people on this board yet none of you come to my defence.
And now you expect me to change my style to suit you guys?

Really?


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> Ok. One last reply before I'm done.
> 
> I liked her post because I agreed. It's that simple. This wasn't about me or other posters or comparing the two. I was just bringing to light why you were getting some grief. I'd rather just say it than ignore it. I won't play this 'tit for tat' game with you. Good day.


You liked the post because you have your BIASES.
I respect your BIASES.
Please respect mine.
Don't talk to me as if I'm dumb.

Live and let live.
Its that simple.


----------



## Maricha75

Caribbean Man said:


> Nobody is adjusting their style to please me, and I have never asked anybody to do so.
> I have been " flamed " by people on this board yet none of you come to my defence.
> And now you expect me to change my style to suit you guys?
> 
> Really?


Are you kidding me? Did I say you need to change your style to suit me? No! Just as I won't change mine to suit you. Seriously! I have been "flamed" as well. And my temper started flaring on a few threads. I'll specifically mention one poster... jaquen. He came to my defense because I pointed out that these things were or were not a certain way FOR ME. I couldn't care less how things work in someone else's marriage. But, I'll be DAMNED if someone tries to tell ME that they know what I do and do not do...or what I want or do not want...simply because that is what works FOR THEM. 

Ok, you specifically mentioned porn one or two pages ago. I am one who is against it whether pictures or DVDs or online or pay-per-view on TV or whatever. It has no place in my marriage, and I won't tolerate it in my house or in any other relationship I ever get in, God forbid anything happens to my husband. I was blasted because I said I know for a fact that my husband doesn't view it and I know he doesn't masturbate... I was called controlling. The thing is, there are MANY people on here who I disagree with. Guess what? It doesn't bother me in the least. Jaquen is one of them... when it comes to porn, anyway. I get along with him just fine. Why? Because even in the "disagreeable" posts, he was agreeable.

So, no, I don't ask you to change to suit me or anyone else. Like I said, your posts COME ACROSS in that manner. If that's not how you mean for it to be interpreted, I apologize (as I already said, but I think you glossed over that in favor of the "So I should change for you"). If it WAS how you meant to come across, well, that's for you... I will try to refrain from getting agitated by it.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Maricha75 said:


> *I was blasted because I said I know for a fact that my husband doesn't view it and I know he doesn't masturbate... I was called controlling. *
> .


And I was also there, with Jaquen on that thread defending you while those two other posters were gnawing away at you.
Every single post you made,
I placed my " like " on it.
You specifically said it was for religious reasons, and I agreed with you.


----------



## Maricha75

Caribbean Man said:


> And I was also there, with Jaquen on that thread defending you while those two other posters were gnawing away at you.
> Every single post you made,
> I placed my " like " on it.
> You specifically said it was for religious reasons, and I agreed with you.


I do remember that you "like" some things I say... my point is that SOME things come across as TG mentioned... SOME. And because I wasn't sure if that was how you meant it or not, I just didn't reply. If something hits me in a post, then yes I do reply...like the last couple pages here. That's all I'm saying... if you aren't trying to appear condescending, then maybe it's a cultural thing? Idk. I try not to let it bother me.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Maricha75 said:


> I do remember that you "like" some things I say... my point is that SOME things come across as TG mentioned... SOME. And because I wasn't sure if that was how you meant it or not, I just didn't reply. If something hits me in a post, then yes I do reply...like the last couple pages here. That's all I'm saying...* if you aren't trying to appear condescending, then maybe it's a cultural thing? Idk. I try not to let it bother me. *


Its not a cultural thing Maricha.

There are some people on this board who expect you to either swallow everything they say or just shut up.
I have seen people flamed here by certain posters and they just back down.
I once witnessed four female poster beating up on Simply Amorous because what she said she believed , they didn't agree.
And that's not the only time.
The moderator, Dejoo made a passing comment on it earlier on.
Yes,some people are even ridiculed for their beliefs.
The problem with me is that I don't take shyt or disrespect from anybody.


----------



## Maricha75

Trenton said:


> Dude. What's going on?
> 
> Who's religious?
> Who's got style?
> Chicken said what?
> Who loves porn?
> 
> I'm confuzzed.


I'm religious! My style is to whip my husband into submission...you know, because I'm controlling like that! Chicken? Hmmm... I'm inclined to believe it's more about TURKEYS! Porn... nah, don't touch the stuff. It's because of my controlling nature. 

Who ISN'T confused, really?? :scratchhead:


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *CaribbeanMan said*: I once witnessed four female poster beating up on Simply Amorous because what she said she believed , they didn't agree.
> And that's not the only time.
> The moderator, Deejo made a passing comment on it earlier on.
> Yes,some people are even ridiculed for their beliefs.
> The problem with me is that I don't take shyt or disrespect from anybody.


Yes, Deejo did & I chuckled at that ...









We all need to BE and express ourselves *as we are* ~ with respect of course. 

All that matters at the end of the day....is our spouses / how they feel / if they accept & love us for who we are / the way we are.

My husband has my back, I've been hurt on this forum a # of times... I'm female, we're emotional creatures ...but ya know.. it's OK.... My brain knows how terribly silly it is to even care....but yet... it happens. I pick myself up... I rant to him - he soothes me, we laugh about it ....









I'm old fashioned/Traditional ~ but no longer a Christian -yet the majority of my friends are...I've been told since I've only slept with 1 man, I can't possibly relate to anyone or be any help to modern relationships.... We've went to Strip Clubs.... I like porn & believe in waiting for







& commitment to have







... their isn't any "box" one can put me into...and my views go against the wind of many on this forum. 

I wouldn't want a partner uptight about porn...It bugs me if others assume we are inviting something dark into our marriage, but I'm not going to change anyone ~ any more than they will change how we live & what "spices" we choose to engage in. 

I guess I'd rather be authentic, even hated (with genuine friends) than so/so liked by all - when it's not for who I really am, or how I really feel.


----------



## jaquen

Caribbean Man said:


> [
> 
> My question to you is,
> *Do you think that because your opinion on the topic of porn is offensive to women, that you should stop posting on the topic ,defending it and other men who use it?
> *
> I await your response.


My view on the topic is offense to _*some *_women.

And no, neither I, nor the anti-porn brigade, should stop posting on the topic. There is room for both points of view.


----------



## Deejo

Let's steer this puppy back into the lane of on-topic, please, before it careens wildly off the winding road it's already on.


----------



## jaquen

You guys sure know how to make a man feel welcome and appreciated. Thank you!

The great thing about the later part of this thread? Conversing, debating, and even vehemently disagreeing, with some of my absolute favorite posters on TAM. 

:allhail:


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Alpha - if you're not first all you see is other dog's buttholes. Of course, this does mean you're a dog.
> 
> How'd I do Deejo?!


You use the words poop and butthole a lot when you post.

For you you dear Trenton, given the subject matter, that's pretty much on topic.

But let's dwell on the positives of dogs shall we? They are loyal to a fault, will follow the direction of a leader they respect, and they will lay down their life to protect you. All they generally want in return is your attention, your affection ... and meat.

I'm ok with being a dog.

Except those little toy dog bastards that just yip incessantly, hump your leg and pi$$ on the carpet.

The word keeps getting in the way. It's like when we would discuss dominance. They are subsets of the same topic. 

I don't believe that any of those that advocate self improvement via the unholy trinity of man-up, dominance, or Alpha are looking to do anyone harm. Not men. Not women. In fact I know it.


----------



## Maricha75

Deejo said:


> You use the words poop and butthole a lot when you post.
> 
> For you you dear Trenton, given the subject matter, that's pretty much on topic.
> 
> But let's dwell on the positives of dogs shall we? They are loyal to a fault, will follow the direction of a leader they respect, and they will lay down their life to protect you. All they generally want in return is your attention, your affection ... and meat.
> 
> *I'm ok with being a dog.*
> 
> Except those little toy dog bastards that just yip incessantly, hump your leg and pi$$ on the carpet.
> 
> The word keeps getting in the way. It's like when we would discuss dominance. They are subsets of the same topic.
> 
> I don't believe that any of those that advocate self improvement via the unholy trinity of man-up, dominance, or Alpha are looking to do anyone harm. Not men. Not women. In fact I know it.


You like to jump up on the desk and knock everything down too?!?!?! :scratchhead:

Sorry, Deejo, couldn't resist.
But in line with the dog thing, I have noticed that ours likes to test my husband. That and he tends to try to come between hubby and me, which really pisses me off.

Anyway, yes, alpha... sorry, I cringe when I see it bandied around on this site. Mostly, I think, it is because the few times I have ventured into a thread, someone has thrown out the implication that the man needs to almost be an @$$hole. Do I think that's the way the majority think? Nope. But I also don't think someone should try to tell me who I am and am not attracted to (like TRBE said on page one  ). I know what kind of man I like... My husband doesn't fit that "alpha" stereotype and yet, he is who I want. He is the one who attracted me.


----------



## tobio

Having read a fair bit about the alpha, beta and whatnot, I have become fairly sure hubz is quite a "sigma" type. 

I quite like that. I think that mysterious quality is very curious. Unfortunately not read anything on married sigmas - can't imagine there'd be much out there. He does possess an air of self-confidence that I imagine here would be described as alpha.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Caribbean Man said:


> Many years ago when I was in marriage counselling,the counsellor told me something that has resonated in my mind since.
> 
> She said to me during a on to one session:
> 
> "...D...[ my first name ], a person's perception is often times their reality.*We sometimes interpret what we see and call it reality..*."
> 
> Maybe it helped that she was also a good friend of mine, but from then I knew I had to either change my perception, or have enough " balls" to do something about it.


For a great, very real example of this, find a video about the McGurk effect.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Tall Average Guy said:


> For a great, very real example of this, find a video about the *McGurk effect.*


Thanks for the term, I checked it out and got this:

Try The McGurk Effect! - Horizon: Is Seeing Believing? - BBC Two - YouTube

Sometimes we forget how complex we are as human beings.
We are capable of receiving , processing and executing information and commands at lightening speed.

Consciousness and perception , on all different levels is one of the most powerful tools of the mind. I think it helps to shape who think we are and what we are capable of.

Just my opinion.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Halien said:


> Sadly, I believe that becoming 'alpha', or whatever you call it, doesn't come with a person's realization that he has the need for a voice in his relationships, or even when a person tries to follow certain prescribed teachings. It comes after a hard-to-describe Eureka moment, when a person honestly recogizes his true self-worth in life, and can look into his capabilities with the same honesty. The scale will tip towards the 'alpha' side if this process ignites a certain drive to grow, and develop more meaningful relationships and impact in the lives of others. It implies that this growth has a particular reason. For me, personally, the reason revolved around wanting my life to have meaning, to recognize my ability to impact whether or not I get there. To try to never drift into inaction when it comes to keeping my marriage alive, and vital. I personally measure this 'meaning' through my marriage and my family. I'd be lying if I didn't admit that this transfers to my career, and a goal of making a difference in the roles in which I am placed. What little I know of alpha is summarized by being very focused on achieving internal goals, yet thriving on the realization that it always takes a joined purpose to get there.


For me, it took “gradual epiphany” for it to truly work (yes – I know that may not make sense, but it was sudden understanding that took me a couple of days to truly understand the ramifications of and put into words). My epiphany was that I can only control myself. Doing all this stuff for my wife was never going to work – it might in the short run, but it was too difficult to do and frankly too dishonest. The only way for me to be happy was to get myself to a place where I am happy with myself and my actions. My wife can’t make me happy, but she does add to it. I need to get myself to that place. To me, that means finding and doing things I have passion for, making sure that my wishes and needs are not always last (and sometimes are first), and ensuring that my boundaries are both reasonable and enforced. That also translated into me recognizing that not being married to my wife would not kill me. Make no mistake, I want our marriage to last, and for us to grow old together. That is the choice I have made and hope to continue it. But I also realize that I could live through it and would figure out a way to be happy.

This realization did wonders for me and my marriage.


----------



## jaquen

Caribbean Man said:


> Sometimes we forget how complex we are as human beings.


The irony of this being stated specifically in this thread hasn't escaped me.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Trenton said:


> Another observation that can be made from this thread is that the philosophy of becoming alpha is being disagreed upon by many women. A man steps up, Jaquen in this case, and speak prolifically and it's such a nice thing to read.
> 
> Yes, the conversations are circular and have been hashed out over and over. Yes, the sticky still remains as do the men who insist that women just don't get it.
> 
> I really wonder how many men it has honestly helped over the long-term in either getting their wives back into a sexually fulfilling and committed relationship or moving on to better, more fulfilling relationships. Yet, in the years I've been here, I've read little about it and still the advice remains the same.
> 
> If it works, where are the real life examples pouring in that it works?


I can say it has worked for me. Much was based on my epiphany above. We are at a much better place, emotionally and physically. It has not been without its bumps, but me getting to a place where I am happy with where I am and where I am going as a man have done wonders for our marriage.


----------



## Caribbean Man

jaquen said:


> The irony of this being stated specifically in this thread hasn't escaped me.


At the age of 14 years old I started working part time at my uncle's construction business.
After school I would go straight to the site and work until night.

I wasn't forced to work, but I liked being independent, I recognized that having a salary, no matter how small afforded me that.
By age 18, I was made foreman on a huge project. I was put in charge of men who were more than twice my age and who hated me for that . I was also pursuing my studies in engineering.
I complained to my uncle who was " my boss" , about the workmen's attitude and disrespect towards me , and the lack of production because of it.
He told me in return to stop whining and complaining to him.
He told me that I am no longer a boy, that i was a man just like them. He then told me that if the project was not finished on time I would have loose my position and a part of my salary.
Something clicked .
I realized that my uncle, the boss was no longer covering my a$$. 
Long story short, we got the project finished before due date, and i got my bonus.
I realized my problem wasn't so much the men, it was me. I had authority that I wasn't using.
I was allowing them to disrespect me , and I was in charge of them.
_I had to change my approach to the problem_.

But first I needed to understand the problem. I could have simply given up and " move on" because obviously this job wasn't for me , or nobody's covering my back, or any random reason I could find.
*But simply moving on doesn't fix me.* Sometimes even though you move on , there are problems in you. No man is a perfect man , and there are always flaws that needs fixing. If these flaws are not fixed, then he is doomed to repeat the same mistake.

_ I choose to face the problem head on._

Sometimes " moving on " is not the solution to the problem. Fixing your perception of the problem, and fixing yourself is a more permanent solution.
The strategy of " moving on " can only work for so long.

When in year three of our marriage,we started having serious problems, I could have dumped her and 
" moved on " to a woman whom I perceived would have respected me. But instead I chose to fix my perception of the problem. In doing that, I fixed me , she worked on herself, and we had a better understanding of how to approach the problems in our marriage.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> What about it worked exactly? I mean what did you find most helpful?


I have seriously been thinking about compiling a list ... not that I imagine it would matter much. But there are far more that have come back to indicate that the steps taken were positive, then I am sure most folks are aware of.

Not all of them reconciled. But then again, reconciling is not always the best choice.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> Not all of them reconciled. But then again, reconciling is not always the best choice.


The purpose of the entire exercise is to work on oneself,IMO.
It's not simply to fix the problem in the relationship, but to fix _your side_ of the problem.
If in the process the relationship is fixed, it is a plus.
If it ends up in divorce, you are in a better position to move forward, because of working on yourself.
Its a win - win.


----------



## AFEH

Caribbean Man said:


> The purpose of the entire exercise is to work on oneself,IMO.
> It's not simply to fix the problem in the relationship, but to fix _your side_ of the problem.
> If in the process the relationship is fixed, it is a plus.
> If it ends up in divorce, you are in a better position to move forward, because of working on yourself.
> Its a win - win.


Yes. That’s one of Deejo’s mantras here. And quite right too in my mind.


But I’m of a mind to add something else. More or less to say that it takes two to tango and if your wife isn’t on the dance floor with you then there’s not much that’ll happen by way of improvement in the relationship no matter how much you improve as a man.


So if a man is ”troubled” in his marriage for one reason or another it behoves him to check his wife out by spying on her. To see if his marriage is being brought down by toxic friends or if his wife is an affair.


If she is then he’s better to attend to that first before anything else.


----------



## jaquen

Caribbean Man said:


> At the age of 14 years old I started working part time at my uncle's construction business.
> After school I would go straight to the site and work until night.
> 
> I wasn't forced to work, but I liked being independent, I recognized that having a salary, no matter how small afforded me that.
> By age 18, I was made foreman on a huge project. I was put in charge of men who were more than twice my age and who hated me for that . I was also pursuing my studies in engineering.
> I complained to my uncle who was " my boss" , about the workmen's attitude and disrespect towards me , and the lack of production because of it.
> He told me in return to stop whining and complaining to him.
> He told me that I am no longer a boy, that i was a man just like them. He then told me that if the project was not finished on time I would have loose my position and a part of my salary.
> Something clicked .
> I realized that my uncle, the boss was no longer covering my a$$.
> Long story short, we got the project finished before due date, and i got my bonus.
> I realized my problem wasn't so much the men, it was me. I had authority that I wasn't using.
> I was allowing them to disrespect me , and I was in charge of them.
> _I had to change my approach to the problem_.
> 
> But first I needed to understand the problem. I could have simply given up and " move on" because obviously this job wasn't for me , or nobody's covering my back, or any random reason I could find.
> *But simply moving on doesn't fix me.* Sometimes even though you move on , there are problems in you. No man is a perfect man , and there are always flaws that needs fixing. If these flaws are not fixed, then he is doomed to repeat the same mistake.
> 
> _ I choose to face the problem head on._
> 
> Sometimes " moving on " is not the solution to the problem. Fixing your perception of the problem, and fixing yourself is a more permanent solution.
> The strategy of " moving on " can only work for so long.
> 
> When in year three of our marriage,we started having serious problems, I could have dumped her and
> " moved on " to a woman whom I perceived would have respected me. But instead I chose to fix my perception of the problem. In doing that, I fixed me , she worked on herself, and we had a better understanding of how to approach the problems in our marriage.


There is a lot of truth in this, but...

What does this have to do with my post that you quoted?


----------



## Caribbean Man

jaquen said:


> There is a lot of truth in this, but...
> 
> What does this have to do with my post that you quoted?


We are very complex creatures my friend!


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Trenton said:


> What about it worked exactly? I mean what did you find most helpful?


Looking back, I think it was realizing that this was about me, not her or us, at least at first. I needed to get right with myself, and no one else could do that for me. She could support it (and she did, even if she did not know quite what it was about), but she could not do it for me. I know that may sounds selfish, and I certainly wondered about that when I first realized it. But I needed to help myself before I could help my marriage. Much like I needed to get my oxygen mask on before helping my kid.

Once I got a handle on what I wanted to be and how I wanted to get there, I could focus on my wife and our marriage. At that point, I actually found the Married Man’s Sex Life to be useful as a loose guide. It gave me some ideas about things that could help keep my wife attracted. For example, I knew I needed to handle chores around the house not as an extension of my wife, but as an equal partner taking care of our home. This dovetailed nicely with the MMSL’s suggestion about finishing those projects around the house. As I tackled those, and included my children to teach them, my wife reacted very well, both emotionally and sexually. 

Another one of them was to embrace being a sexual being. One need I realized I have is an active sex life with my wife. For too long I was ashamed of that. Both MMSL and NNMNG helped me embrace that part of me and work to positively incorporate it into our marriage.

Finally, I found that my wife was more receptive to a “carrot and stick” approach. By that I mean providing both positive and negative changes. So while I enforced my boundaries by not following her around picking up after her like her butler, I also showed the positives by working on our connection with more dating and fun activities. She was understandably confused by my changes, so providing some positives showed that this would be good for us (at least that was what I was trying to show).


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Trenton said:


> Missed Halien's post!
> 
> I guess in my ideal world I'd like to have a man do things for me because he sincerely enjoys it and so it's not a favor that needs to be returned, or a ploy to have sex, or something he does because he wants to keep the peace, but instead a joy we both share...and vice versa.
> 
> *I think what you call it matters and the content, if not taking women's pov into the equation, falls short.*
> Maybe it's all common sense.
> 
> None of us would take away a chance at happiness for someone on these boards or at least I hope not.
> 
> Still, sometimes when you win, you lose.


Do you mind expanding on the bolder part? Not sure I understand what you are driving at.


----------



## Halien

Tall Average Guy said:


> For me, it took “gradual epiphany” for it to truly work (yes – I know that may not make sense, but it was sudden understanding that took me a couple of days to truly understand the ramifications of and put into words). My epiphany was that I can only control myself. Doing all this stuff for my wife was never going to work – it might in the short run, but it was too difficult to do and frankly too dishonest. The only way for me to be happy was to get myself to a place where I am happy with myself and my actions. My wife can’t make me happy, but she does add to it. I need to get myself to that place. To me, that means finding and doing things I have passion for, making sure that my wishes and needs are not always last (and sometimes are first), and ensuring that my boundaries are both reasonable and enforced. That also translated into me recognizing that not being married to my wife would not kill me. Make no mistake, I want our marriage to last, and for us to grow old together. That is the choice I have made and hope to continue it. But I also realize that I could live through it and would figure out a way to be happy.
> 
> This realization did wonders for me and my marriage.


This was exactly what I was getting at, but you describe it much better. For me, I realized that all the things that led to hesitance and anxiousness in my daily life couldn't physically hurt me, so why was I letting them keep me from being the person I should be? Partner that with the realization that others were not scrutinizing my every move, and it became empowering.


----------



## jaquen

Tall Average Guy said:


> Another one of them was to embrace being a sexual being. One need I realized I have is an active sex life with my wife. For too long I was ashamed of that. Both MMSL and NNMNG helped me embrace that part of me and work to positively incorporate it into our marriage.


That's fascinating to me me. So what do you believe was the root of that shame TAG?


----------



## Deejo

jaquen said:


> That's fascinating to me me. So what do you believe was the root of that shame TAG?


Won't speak for Tall Average Guy, but I can tell you in my case it was basically reverse objectification.

"That's all you are interested in."

Rejection went on for so long that ANY expression of affection, a hug, holding hands, a kiss on the cheek, a loving glance and a smile, were all seen as overt displays of affection whose only expression could be that I wanted to have sex ... and that needed to be extinguished with extreme prejudice from her perspective.

Fact of the matter was, all SHE was interested in was sex ... the prevention of it, and anything that could conceivably lead to it. 

And yes, it can lead to shameful feelings when the person who used to gleefully jump on the hood of a car when you simply gave her a sly look, now rolls her eyes and makes you feel like a pervert for wanting to hold her hand.

Thus ... you need to make her SEE you again. And you can't do that until you decide to see yourself.

Hope that helps.


----------



## Halien

Trenton said:


> Missed Halien's post!
> 
> I guess in my ideal world I'd like to have a man do things for me because he sincerely enjoys it and so it's not a favor that needs to be returned, or a ploy to have sex, or something he does because he wants to keep the peace, but instead a joy we both share...and vice versa.
> 
> I think what you call it matters and the content, if not taking women's pov into the equation, falls short.
> 
> Maybe it's all common sense.
> 
> None of us would take away a chance at happiness for someone on these boards or at least I hope not.
> 
> Still, sometimes when you win, you lose.


I hope I didn't give the impression that I was recommending doing things in the relationship with secretive motivations. I do believe that, in the practical view of relationships, people will do things completely out of love, but time often brings a loss of focus, and taking each other for granted. Part of what I was referring to in a previous post is the sincere promise that my wife and I made during our engagement ceremony to always work to keep the relationship vital, and feeling new. A spiritual part of the traditional Creek ceremony was in affirming that our marriage was a living thing, and long-term happiness is only possible if it is intentional, through actions that have no other purpose than supporting the other. For both of us, it was a pledge to understand and pursue each other's very unique needs, and make them our own. I couldn't imagine having a relationship where sex was not something that just came as easy as breathing, or where games come into play. I've just been fortunate in that area.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Deejo said:


> Won't speak for Tall Average Guy, but I can tell you in my case it was basically reverse objectification.
> 
> "That's all you are interested in."
> 
> *Rejection went on for so long that ANY expression of affection, a hug, holding hands, a kiss on the cheek, a loving glance and a smile, were all seen as overt displays of affection whose only expression could be that I wanted to have sex ... and that needed to be extinguished with extreme prejudice from her perspective.*
> Fact of the matter was, all SHE was interested in was sex ... the prevention of it, and anything that could conceivably lead to it.
> 
> And yes, it can lead to shameful feelings when the person who used to gleefully jump on the hood of a car when you simply gave her a sly look, now rolls her eyes and makes you feel like a pervert for wanting to hold her hand.
> 
> Thus ... you need to make her SEE you again. And you can't do that until you decide to see yourself.
> 
> Hope that helps.


I don’t really know. I have thought about it a lot, yet don’t really have any good answers or reasons. 

As I think about it, my parents appeared to have a good sex life. They certainly did not tell me that sex was bad or anything. But I was taught to respect women and treat them for more than their body. It’s possible I took that too far and learned that I wanting them physically was a bad thing. I also went to a Christian school in middle school and high school, so had plenty of negative reinforcement about sex being bad. Finally, I was a pretty late bloomer all around. Puberty late, full height late, scholastically late. So I never really thought of myself as much of a catch or that someone would really want me physically. 

So I really pushed that side of me down, especially when kids came along and the focus turned to them. Certainly I got some of the same comments that Deejo mentions, that reinforced what I already thought. The bold, in particular, seemed to happen more and more.

I am still not sure where I went wrong along the way, but it is something I am working hard on getting correct. In some ways, it does not really matter. I can’t change the past, only work on the future.


----------



## jaquen

Deejo said:


> Fact of the matter was, all SHE was interested in was sex ... the prevention of it, and anything that could conceivably lead to it.


Did she ever get to a point of expressing, or explaining, why her attitudes toward sex changed so radically?


----------



## Deejo

jaquen said:


> Did she ever get to a point of expressing, or explaining, why her attitudes toward sex changed so radically?


This is going to sound flip, and to be clear I'm not directing the statement at you. I understand that people need to ask the obvious. But ... trust me ... for people in these kind of situations, they have asked the questions and done the due diligence.

In short, nobody is ever going to 'explain' their dysfunction to you. Particularly when what they see is _your_ dysfunction, not their own.

It just doesn't happen. Because by the time your partner isn't interested in having sex with you, they generally aren't interested in pursuing something WITH you to change their mind. Ironically, it feels like coercion or manipulation to them.

Hence why men (or women for that matter) finding themselves in such a predicament are encouraged to take a step back, turn down the emotional temperature, and focus on themselves ... enter 'No More Mr. Nice Guy', 'Man Up', and 'Alpha' subject matter.

The entire dynamic needs to be reframed, because the one you have is unworkable. Without some radical shift in how you interact, inertia will hold you and the dynamic you have with your partner in place. Nothing changes, if nothing changes.

It's also why I will never buy into the notion that by leaving your spouse out of the equation of the steps you are taking, that you cannot truly address it. 

It aint' about them. It's about you. Doesn't matter if they like it or not. I don't need to know the other side of the story. Because if the person doing the work, takes the right steps, the story will have a happy ending ... one way, or the other.

My position is, that if you were to tell your wife that you are attempting to strengthen your character for your benefit and her benefit as well, so that she will find you more attractive ... you have just cut your own throat. It's done. She will see everything you do as false and contrived ... just as many folks here quite clearly, already do.


----------



## okeydokie

Deejo said:


> My position is, that if you were to tell your wife that you are attempting to strengthen your character for your benefit and her benefit as well, so that she will find you more attractive ... you have just cut your own throat. It's done. She will see everything you do as false and contrived ... just as many folks quite clearly, already do.


bullseye


----------



## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> *The entire dynamic needs to be reframed, because the one you have is unworkable. Without some radical shift in how you interact, inertia will hold you and the dynamic you have with your partner in place. Nothing changes, if nothing changes.*
> 
> It's also why I will never buy into the notion that by leaving your spouse out of the equation of the steps you are taking, that you cannot truly address it.
> 
> *It aint' about them. It's about you. Doesn't matter if they like it or not. I don't need to know the other side of the story. Because if the person doing the work, takes the right steps, the story will have a happy ending ... one way, or the other.
> *
> My position is, that if you were to tell your wife that you are attempting to strengthen your character for your benefit and her benefit as well, so that she will find you more attractive ... you have just cut your own throat. It's done. She will see everything you do as false and contrived ... just as many folks quite clearly, already do.


Very well said!
My guess is that your _experience_ has taught you that?


----------



## Deejo

Caribbean Man said:


> Very well said!
> My guess is that your _experience_ has taught you that?


Bottom line, I wanted to save my marriage. But not at 'any cost' particularly if all of the cost was coming from my side.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Yes, and that's my whole problem with it.


You smell good ...


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Trenton said:


> I guess in my ideal world I'd like to have a man do things for me because he sincerely enjoys it and so it's not a favor that needs to be returned, or a ploy to have sex, or something he does because he wants to keep the peace, but instead a joy we both share...and vice versa.


It's the vice versa part here that gets lost in every marriage where the woman views sex as a chore. This is what women choose to give up when they choose to identify themselves as sexually diminished or just basically not interested


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Deejo said:


> My position is, that if you were to tell your wife that you are attempting to strengthen your character for your benefit and her benefit as well, so that she will find you more attractive ... you have just cut your own throat. It's done. She will see everything you do as false and contrived ... just as many folks here quite clearly, already do.


In my case, my wife hates the alpha. Due to multi-generational male alcoholism in her family of origin, there is a legacy of resentment toward men that is way stronger than anything I can bring into the situation.

I didn't understand any of this when we were first married. She was openly critical of men and male activities and reacted badly to any alpha characteristics I displayed. In my misguided attempts to placate her, I sunk into passivity and resentfulness. Needless to say, this did not progress well and our bus had two wheels off the cliff before I woke up and grabbed the steering wheel. Although we are a long way from that now, if I were to share with her regarding my trying to improve myself by finding and living out my more masculine characteristics, I would create unnecessary conflict.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Trenton said:


> Thanks TAG & Halien, both very insightful, thoughtful posts and I appreciate them. It makes sense when I read what you're saying TAG.
> 
> To expand on what you bolded, what I mean is that within some of the manuals/self help techniques the things you outline and realizations you had are not really explained well enough and the focus is kept very simplistic and suggests things such as it's OK to keep things from your partner even if they involve her directly, the idea that a woman doesn't know what she wants, and that biology trumps intelligence & understanding, etc.
> 
> For example, why is it that a wife can't know about what is going on while you're on this journey back to yourself? Are women so incapable of understanding that they will lose their respect for their spouses? Why are they left out of the picture?
> 
> BTW Halien, don't think it's selfish at all to take care of yourself. In fact, I think many marriages and relationships in general fall apart because one, the other or both are not taking care of themselves.
> 
> Finishing projects around the house seems like a smart suggestion! Anyone would love to have their partner show responsibility and pride in the home and family.
> 
> I really think it comes down to equity in the relationship. When that gets out of balance it won't matter why (either one feels they don't get enough sex or one feels the other is not engaged, etc.). So I think equity is the key over being the leader, etc.


Sorry for the delay, but you have a whole lot packed in here, so I wanted to answer them as thoughtfully as I could, so here goes.

The reasons for not telling my wife about my journey are varied. Initially, I could not articulate it to her. I knew something had to change in my life, but I was not really sure what. I did not feel it was fair to throw that out there while leaving her hanging on what exactly I wanted to change. Add to it that previous talks about issues like sex had gone nowhere, and I was not in a place where I thought talking to her was going to really be useful. As I figured out my goal and went down the road, I did start to share bits and pieces with her. But I realized that it was about making myself happy. In that, she could not really assist, because it was about me.

I do think that women generally know what they want. Previous posts have amply demonstrated that. However, those posts have also just as amply demonstrated that in many cases, these women can’t define it. They know it when they see it, but have difficulty telling anyone ahead of time what it is. I also think that there are times when what women want is in conflict with what they think they should want. So add that all up, and you have a situation that many men, perhaps incompletely, diagnose as women not know what they want. While I don’t think this solely the province of women, I do think there is some truth to it.

While I also do not think biology trumps intelligence in women, I believe it is foolish to think it has no influence. A women can have an attraction to a particular man without falling into bed with him. But that attraction still exists. So why not use those attractions to help my marriage. I used to get a lot of projects around the house done by others. In hindsight, it is clear that my wife found a couple of them attractive. I don’t think she slept with any of them, or did anything improper, but looking back I can see that it was there. Fast forward to today, I am now doing a lot of those projects, and teaching my kids how to do them. This is like catnip for her because it aligns her love for me and her intellectual understanding that we are a team with her biological wiring of seeing her man fix stuff and teach our kids. My thought is that by understanding how these biological forces act on us, I can avoid bad results and work toward better ones.

I do think it is about equity in effort and engagement. Seeing your partner really try goes a long way, at least for me.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Trenton said:


> Yes, and that's my whole problem with it.


Why?


----------



## oldgeezer

Trenton said:


> Missed Halien's post!
> 
> I guess in my ideal world I'd like to have a man do things for me because he sincerely enjoys it and so it's not a favor that needs to be returned, or a ploy to have sex, or something he does because he wants to keep the peace, but instead a joy we both share...and vice versa.


How does this mesh with wanting your man to do something he seriously dislikes or detests? Loving you does NOT make IT any different. And him detesting doing it (but doing it because you ask or because it pleases you) doesn't meet your criteria. It has a certain sense of being a "setup for guaranteed failure", if you know what I mean. 

Yes, it's an "ideal" world, but not one where it seems even remotely possible meet that ideal.


----------



## east2west

Trenton said:


> So if you're deceiving your wife so that you can surprise her with a gift she's always wanted then that would be OK in my mind as it leads to positive feelings between the two and a stronger, authentic connection. If you're deceiving your wife because you're fed up in your relationship, resentful and restless...that's disconnection that when leading to connection is not an authentic connection.


But that's what it's all about. Surprising your wife with something she always wanted. A husband that makes her want sex.


----------



## trex

Trenton said:


> For me it wreaks of insecurity, a lack of authenticity. I find no issue with seeking help but why can't you say, "Hun, things aren't working in our relationship for me. I feel horrible. Sex is important to me and it's missing. I want more for us. I want to work on me so that I can be the man you deserve and be the man I aspire to be. You're not happy, you've said so, let's work on this. If you can't or won't then I've got to do this for me and if at anytime you change your mind and want to get on board, and I hope you do, I'll be happy to have you step up next to me. We both deserve better than what we got and we need to figure out how to get to that better place for both of us."


You're asking good questions here. I would just say that improving yourself, for yourself, is about as authentic as it gets. Your relationship is a reflection of self in this case and is improved as a side-affect of the change in you. If you're improving yourself only for the benefit of someone else, then you're missing the point and have already failed.

Also, I agree that being direct is the best course of action when possible. I can imagine quite a few scenarios where you at least start with yourself and then integrate your spouse.


----------



## jaquen

Deejo said:


> In short, nobody is ever going to 'explain' their dysfunction to you. Particularly when what they see is _your_ dysfunction, not their own.
> 
> It just doesn't happen.



Sorry, but it's a perfectly natural question for me to ask because it does happen in my marriage. I'm uber introspective, and brutally honest with myself, so I do talk about my own dysfunctions with my wife. And she does the same, usually with my guidance in helping her dig her true feelings, and issues, out since that's just my strong suit. When we faced a dip in sex (nowhere near sexless though) due to her behavior, we got to the bottom of it, and yes her hold up and dysfunctions were put on clear display.

So, in short, it's natural for my mind to go there because that is what I know, and have always known.

That quibble aside, the rest of your post makes perfect sense to me. I am a firm believer in finding your best self, and that journey being independent of anybody else. You can't change for anybody, even if the chances you make for yourself do benefit others.


----------



## jaquen

Trenton said:


> For me it wreaks of insecurity, a lack of authenticity. I find no issue with seeking help but why can't you say, "Hun, things aren't working in our relationship for me. I feel horrible. Sex is important to me and it's missing. I want more for us. I want to work on me so that I can be the man you deserve and be the man I aspire to be. You're not happy, you've said so, let's work on this. If you can't or won't then I've got to do this for me and if at anytime you change your mind and want to get on board, and I hope you do, I'll be happy to have you step up next to me. We both deserve better than what we got and we need to figure out how to get to that better place for both of us."


That is the approach I would take. That feels authentic to me because my wife and I have a strong foundation where this kind of transparency is possible, is not approached with judgement, and is ultimately beneficial. I know that if I got to the point where I needed to make a confession akin to this, that I would be heard, and my wife would react swiftly, and boldly, to correct problems. It sounds like you are like my wife.

What these other gentlemen are saying is that in many circumstances they don't have the luxury of such an open, involved wife. Perhaps if they did things would never even have progressed to the point where they needed to do any of this soul searching, potentially marriage eviscerating work. A lot of the men on this board describe wives who are dishonest about their own feelings, nagging, dismissive, closed off, stopped up, antagonistic, angry, suspicious, manipulative, and a whole host of other problems.

I imagine they would love to be able to be as open and unfettered as you suggest, and I experience, but it sounds like some of these men are in situations which are akin to trying to grow plants in a chalk garden.


----------



## Caribbean Man

jaquen said:


> I imagine they would love to be able to be as open and unfettered as you suggest, and I experience, but it sounds like some of these men are in situations which are akin to trying to grow plants in a chalk garden.


:iagree:
Human beings are complex my friend!
And relationships even more complicated.
As you have suggested multiple times on this thread, a lot of marriage partners are not even compatible from day one.


----------



## Lyris

I have been thinking about this recently.

I'm not going to address the what women want stuff, but the idea of working to improve things without talking about it resonates with me quite strongly.

My husband and I are still healing from a very serious disconnect that started after our first child was born. We are doing very well, but I don't feel that we are as close and connected as we used to be yet. 

Although the initial catalyst to our coming back together was expressed verbally and we managed to talk and explain things that helped us understand, further talking us not helpful. My husband finds it excruciatingly difficult to express his emotions verbally, although he feels them very deeply. I, on the other hand, will talk forever, examining each feeling and motivation minutely.

For years I've tried to get him to do that too. But I've recently realised that he hates it so much it's counter productive; I know him well enough to improve things for him without him having to expressly ask; he actually values any change I make much less if he has to ask for it; and the main thing he needs is to feel totally loved, safe and that he can trust me with his inner life. 

So I've changed things by myself. I am trying to open myself fully to him, as he is now, not judging or wishing he was different or more like he used to be. I'm not going to ask anything of him emotionally, I'm just going to love him as purely and constantly as I can so that he can feel I'm a safe person for him again. 

And I won't be expressing any of this to him. But he can feel it already. He's already relaxing and being more loving and open.

I've decided if I want to be loved, the first thing is to love without expectations or judgements.


----------



## oldgeezer

Lyris said:


> Although the initial catalyst to our coming back together was expressed verbally and we managed to talk and explain things that helped us understand, further talking us not helpful. My husband finds it excruciatingly difficult to express his emotions verbally, although he feels them very deeply. I, on the other hand, will talk forever, examining each feeling and motivation minutely.
> 
> For years I've tried to get him to do that too. But I've recently realised that he hates it so much it's counter productive; I know him well enough to improve things for him without him having to expressly ask; he actually values any change I make much less if he has to ask for it; and the main thing he needs is to feel totally loved, safe and that he can trust me with his inner life.
> 
> So I've changed things by myself. I am trying to open myself fully to him, as he is now, not judging or wishing he was different or more like he used to be. I'm not going to ask anything of him emotionally, I'm just going to love him as purely and constantly as I can so that he can feel I'm a safe person for him again.
> 
> And I won't be expressing any of this to him. But he can feel it already. He's already relaxing and being more loving and open.
> 
> I've decided if I want to be loved, the first thing is to love without expectations or judgements.


Thank you so much for writing this. 

I just saw myself in it... A revelation. It moved me to tears, actually. I just realized again what hurts so bad.


----------



## AFEH

Lyris said:


> I have been thinking about this recently.
> 
> I'm not going to address the what women want stuff, *but the idea of working to improve things without talking about it resonates with me quite strongly.*
> 
> My husband and I are still healing from a very serious disconnect that started after our first child was born. We are doing very well, but I don't feel that we are as close and connected as we used to be yet.
> 
> Although the initial catalyst to our coming back together was expressed verbally and we managed to talk and explain things that helped us understand, further talking us not helpful. My husband finds it excruciatingly difficult to express his emotions verbally, although he feels them very deeply. I, on the other hand, will talk forever, examining each feeling and motivation minutely.
> 
> For years I've tried to get him to do that too. But I've recently realised that he hates it so much it's counter productive; I know him well enough to improve things for him without him having to expressly ask; he actually values any change I make much less if he has to ask for it; and the main thing he needs is to feel totally loved, safe and that he can trust me with his inner life.
> 
> So I've changed things by myself. I am trying to open myself fully to him, as he is now, not judging or wishing he was different or more like he used to be. I'm not going to ask anything of him emotionally, I'm just going to love him as purely and constantly as I can so that he can feel I'm a safe person for him again.
> 
> And I won't be expressing any of this to him. But he can feel it already. He's already relaxing and being more loving and open.
> 
> I've decided if I want to be loved, the first thing is to love without expectations or judgements.


It’s a case of actions speak louder than words.

My wife was very “action oriented” yet she disliked relationship type discussions. It kind of worked that I’d say something, she’d have a think about it and then if inclined actually do something about it. It was a bit weird in that I’d thought I hadn’t got through, yet I had. But overall I think healthy discussions, open and honest communication is absolutely key to a relationship. We just didn’t have that in our marriage.

On the other hand, looking back I can’t ever remember my wife asking me to change anything about me. I’m not saying by any means I was perfect (sometimes far from it) but she never asked me to change. I really do wish she had as opposed to taking the covert way of bad mouthing me to my youngest son and building such a toxic relationship with him. She did though once ask me to stop wearing a favourite but worn jacket. That latter is honestly all I can recall.


But what men like Deejo and others talk of here is Actions. It’s doing stuff. It’s not just talking about it, debating it or whatever it’s actually doing it. And it’s by doing as opposed to talking that as men we actually evolve and change. For the better.



I think I understand why the vast majority of women here and some of the men “just don’t get it”. I think it’s because the women in particular put themselves in the place of the wife of the guy who’s here. And when they do that they’re using their very own values, beliefs and rules. And in that I don’t doubt there is one woman here who doesn’t want to work on improving their marriage.

But guess what? There are other wives who don’t want the status quo to change! But it goes further. There are wives that although they take from their husbands, at the same time they are truly deceitful, treacherous and betraying. They are two faced and while they show their husband a smile and are maybe even still sleeping with him, they are at the same time stabbing him deeply in the back.

I can’t even imagine any of the women here doing that sort of thing. In fact it may well be beyond their experience and their imagination. But it happens. And in those cases it is absolutely pointless “talking with her” because her intent is to maintain the status quo and so she’ll sabotage any attempts to improve the relationship.



It is a lot about the husband being Plan B. Looking back I can see I was my wife’s Plan B for quite a while in the latter part of our marriage. Yet I also believe she was never going to leave me. When I finally did end it she was traumatised. She thought I’d be there forever no matter how she treated me. It’s what happens in some marriages.


----------



## Caribbean Man

AFEH said:


> *is a lot about the husband being Plan B. Looking back I can see I was my wife’s Plan B for quite a while in the latter part of our marriage. Yet I also believe she was never going to leave me. *When I finally did end it she was traumatised. She thought I’d be there forever no matter how she treated me.* It’s what happens in some marriages.*


:iagree:
And I believe if we flip the script, we will also hear the same sad commentary coming from some wives.
Yes, marriage is an equal partnership.
Yes the wife/ husband _should_ to be deeply involved in each other's life, and there _should_ be honesty and transparency about issues.
But that is often not the case.
By the time it reaches TAM, its way far gone.

To quote from Dejoo's last post:

*"....The entire dynamic needs to be reframed, because the one you have is unworkable. Without some radical shift in how you interact, inertia will hold you and the dynamic you have with your partner in place. Nothing changes, if nothing changes..."*


----------



## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> Basically you just want us women to mind our own business... stay out of it...* it's a MAN thing* ~
> *Men need mentored by Men* ....(I know this is one of the suggestions/rules in the manning up process... a significant part of the growth)... no matter how much we THINK we understand, we Don't... and that is the bottom line.
> 
> In "Hold onto your Nuts" -it says one of the sample NUTS is...
> 
> "*I take my problems to MEN, not women"*
> 
> In my marriage (though I was never disgusted by my husband -just not as sexual) - how common it is....I guess I count myself different than many wives & even he said he wouldn't care for that step (but then again, he didn't need it either)...even though he surely could have stepped up the assertive bar in our past.
> 
> But I understand....that doesn't discount that other men WILL benefit and most be helped by OTHER MEN...and to keep the wife out of this process ~ here I will happily agree with you AFEH. :smthumbup:


I actually think women in their roles as mothers have a tremendous influence on what type of man their son becomes.

The hand that rocks the cradle .


I do feel it’s better for a man to go to another man with his marriage problems. I think this because the guy wants solutions, to be told “straight like it is”, without dancing around and trying to be inoffensive. A man can understand another man and where he’s coming from in the way a woman can’t. Women think they know men, but for me they don’t. It’s like saying men know women. We don’t. How can we when we haven’t a clue what it’s like for example to have periods, bear children and give birth to them? We just don’t know.


I’ve a good mate who’s been through the loop a few times. He’s the strong man alpha type. It would need to be a big man who messed with him. He’s been a bad boy but somewhat reformed. He has an amazing insight into the feminine psyche. His wife is quite a character as well, I like her lot. And as big a man he is she sure pushes his boundaries at times. He’s a magician in the way he handles her, very educational.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Trenton said:


> Yes! I understand exactly what you're saying above. But my point is you don't get what you want by pretending, you get it by going after it, by being fearless. Why not advocate authenticity, honesty, and reassessment of what you want while informing the partner along the way? Many may come to find that their own partner is not their ideal mate and incapable of providing what they need.
> 
> The men can walk away and they may not be skilled in game but they will have the strength of character and strength of self that truly attracts a partner that will be authentic with you. Games only get you to point A where you began with your first partner anyway. In order to jump over into the authentic, passionate relationship you want...you've got to be willing to be both passionate & authentic.
> 
> If all you really want is sex and you don't care about that deep connection...then I'd say the tools provided in the men's clubhouse are for you and maybe this is what most men want? I'm still of the mindset that a deep connection with all types of sex is the ideal or at least I hope so.
> 
> I'm not a perfect wife and I have been a nagging, whining, demanding person. I have been confused, lost and trying to find my way too. I struggle with my own insecurities too. I've been unfair to my husband. I don't pretend to have it all down pat. I'm not in a perfect relationship. I'm struggling myself with whether or not I want this relationship even to continue...
> 
> But I do know exactly what I want. Life is difficult and complicated, no doubt.


Who said anything about pretending or games (or deceit as you earlier mentioned)? I am truly working on this to change me. This is neither a game or something I play only on weekends. 

I was not happy with me. Yes, there were problems in my marriage, but the fundemental issue was with me. No one else could fix that. My wife could not do it. Sure, I guess more sex and communication would have masked over things but that would not have fixed the problem. 

You and jaquen note the great open relationship that you have where you can raise these issues and get a fully and fair discussion. I think that is great. It also is no where near where I was starting from. My marriage was not at the place. Our discussions were defensive and unproductive (on both sides). Hell, I was not at that place. I could not have done that, because I was broken/had issues/was not right, how ever you want to phrase it. Again, I will go back to the oxygen mask analogy on the airplane.

I have also not been deceitful about this. True, I did not volunteer the information, but I have never lied to her about it. Of course, she never asked in the beginning, even as she responded positively to my changes. However, as we have improved our relationship, she has asked and I have shared parts of my "discovery". She sproadically asks questions, and give her the best answer that I can. It seems to be enough for her.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

AFEH said:


> But guess what? There are other wives who don’t want the status quo to change! But it goes further. There are wives that although they take from their husbands, at the same time they are truly deceitful, treacherous and betraying. They are two faced and while they show their husband a smile and are maybe even still sleeping with him, they are at the same time stabbing him deeply in the back.


I would add that there are also women out there who don't want change for less nefarious reasons. Perhaps they don't feel safe in the marriage due to a disconnect, or have difficulties with their own self-esteem, or themselves are not comfortable discussing their emotions. Whatever the reason, the status quo is safer than change (the devil you know and all that).


----------



## Deejo

jaquen said:


> Did she ever get to a point of expressing, or explaining, why her attitudes toward sex changed so radically?


 Never really answered this question. The short answer is yes. She used sex as a means of obtaining love. Parents that didn't express it to one another or to her, and she desperately wanted that connection growing up. She was promiscuous in college and hated herself for it after the fact. When asked why things changed so much after our marriage, her answer was, that she didn't feel like she had 'permission' (went back to her mother who told her sex was bad and called her a s1ut) to be that way as a wife, and particularly after becoming a mother.

But ... she also chose to reframe the issue as my only wanting her for sex. Which was little more than a deflecting mechanism to avoid actually doing something about it, and patently untrue.

I hung in there for a very, very long time because I felt bad about the circumstances she grew up with. And I wanted the job of loving her. I was pretty good at it.



Trenton said:


> Because any kind of deceit is going to disconnect even if it leads to connection ...
> 
> If you're deceiving your wife because you're fed up in your relationship, resentful and restless...that's disconnection that when leading to connection is not an authentic connection.
> 
> Even if it works the majority of the time, is it OK that the method excludes and deceives? Why are so many afraid to use negative words too, is that repression?


No I don't think you smell like poo ...
Nor am I sick of what you have to say, especially when you say it so honestly and eloquently. Unfortunately, your honesty highlights the exact dichotomy why some couples CAN'T make it. They just can't agree.
You see this entire enterprise in a fundamentally flawed and negative light. You think it creates problems rather than solving them. I won't ever share that view. But I still respect yours, to be clear. We do agree that equity and vulnerability are crucial pieces to a healthy relationship.



Trenton said:


> For me it wreaks of insecurity, a lack of authenticity. I find no issue with seeking help but why can't you say, "Hun, things aren't working in our relationship for me. I feel horrible. Sex is important to me and it's missing. I want more for us. I want to work on me so that I can be the man you deserve and be the man I aspire to be. You're not happy, you've said so, let's work on this. If you can't or won't then I've got to do this for me and if at anytime you change your mind and want to get on board, and I hope you do, I'll be happy to have you step up next to me. We both deserve better than what we got and we need to figure out how to get to that better place for both of us."
> 
> Wouldn't saying that put it all on the line? Treat your partner like an equal and include them in your realization and I see that as strong and authentic.


Knowing what you know of me, what makes you think I didn't say that? Bob summed it up eloquently in his post. It's words. The words infer action, and it it's the action that creates the change, not the words. My ex? Unlike you, not really a talker. Didn't like being vulnerable, because her parents utterly abused her whenever she was. I did the talking for both of us, and it became exhausting and took away an enormous piece of her responsibility. I would talk, she would agree ... and then DO nothing. I don't say that with anger, it felt more like heartbreak.



jaquen said:


> When we faced a dip in sex (nowhere near sexless though) due to her behavior, we got to the bottom of it, and yes her hold up and dysfunctions were put on clear display.
> 
> So, in short, it's natural for my mind to go there because that is what I know, and have always known.


It's what I have always known as well. Can't imagine not getting to the bottom of something and addressing what needs to be addressed, but think for a minute. Whose choice was it that she chose to share those things with you and act on them? Her choice or your choice? And what if she _hadn't chosen to get to the bottom of it, and deal with her dysfunctions?_ What choice would you then have made?

You have a different dynamic than I did. I changed it. And as a result of doing so, it became obvious she could not, or did not want to make the same choice your wife had. Hence we are no longer married.


----------



## jaquen

Deejo said:


> It's what I have always known as well. Can't imagine not getting to the bottom of something and addressing what needs to be addressed, but think for a minute. Whose choice was it that she chose to share those things with you and act on them? Her choice or your choice? And what if she _hadn't chosen to get to the bottom of it, and deal with her dysfunctions?_ What choice would you then have made?
> 
> You have a different dynamic than I did. I changed it. And as a result of doing so, it became obvious she could not, or did not want to make the same choice your wife had. Hence we are no longer married.


My point of dissent wasn't on the issue of personal responsibility should the dysfunction come to light.

It's a fundamental disagreement with the notion that *"nobody is ever going to 'explain' their dysfunction to you...It just doesn't happen."*

That is untrue. That might have been the case for you ex-wife, but it is not a universal truth that "nobody" can explain their dysfunctions. Some people are quite in tune with their dysfunctions and can explain them very well.


----------



## AFEH

Deejo said:


> Never really answered this question. The short answer is yes. She used sex as a means of obtaining love. Parents that didn't express it to one another or to her, and she desperately wanted that connection growing up. She was promiscuous in college and hated herself for it after the fact. When asked why things changed so much after our marriage, her answer was, that she didn't feel like she had 'permission' (went back to her mother who told her sex was bad and called her a s1ut) to be that way as a wife, and particularly after becoming a mother.
> 
> *But ... she also chose to reframe the issue as my only wanting her for sex.* Which was little more than a deflecting mechanism to avoid actually doing something about it, and patently untrue.
> 
> I hung in there for a very, very long time because I felt bad about the circumstances she grew up with. And I wanted the job of loving her. I was pretty good at it.


I too got that at one time. It was so very far from the truth and exceedingly hurtful. But like some dumb ass I not only let myself get deeply hurt I defended myself listing all the reasons why I wanted her in my life. I must have looked exceedingly weak let alone so utterly dumb and stupid.

And I think it’s in that latter is where a wife begins to lose respect for her husband. She loses respect for him because he’s stupid enough to believe her lies and to be deceived by her! To be played by her.

I was so stuuuupid in taking her at her word without being Mindful about where they came from or what their intentions were.


And herein lies the very poisonous nature of toxic friends either by way of a lover or a male or female friend.

Because it was indeed the toxic friend that uttered those words “He only wants you for sex”. The wife then begins to believe that and in the heat of the moment the wife spews those very same words out at her husband. And other such phrases.

It’s why when a man is in trouble in his marriage the very first thing I say to do is to check his wife out. To spy on her. I get hammered for it sometimes but I talk from very painful and hard won firsthand experience.

But unless that toxic friend or lover is off the scene all the guy will do is waste his time, money and energy. He’ll just spin his wheels burning rubber but getting nowhere.

Within the scheme of Manning Up, I think a big part of it is becoming wise. Wisdom. Like that wise old grandfather with the nice kind smile on his face who knows how the world ticks. And a great part of that is Awareness and Mindfulness.


----------



## Deejo

jaquen said:


> My point of dissent wasn't on the issue of personal responsibility should the dysfunction come to light.
> 
> It's a fundamental disagreement with the notion that *"nobody is ever going to 'explain' their dysfunction to you...It just doesn't happen."*
> 
> That is untrue. That might have been the case for you ex-wife, but it is not a universal truth that "nobody" can explain their dysfunctions. Some people are quite in tune with their dysfunctions and can explain them very well.


We're splitting hairs. I'm telling you at the point in time your spouse or partner is UNSURE about whether they want you around or not ... they are going to be far less engaged in being forthcoming and wanting to work things out ... particularly if you discover they have already been having those conversations with someone other than you, if you get my drift.

Tall Average Guy summed it up. Sometimes you or they don't know. Sometimes trying to 'communicate' about it makes it all worse.

Glad it worked in your case. I remember a point in time when I could say the same. All the more reason I was flummoxed when she shut down.

'Terms and conditions are subject to change without notice.'


----------



## AFEH

Deejo said:


> Tall Average Guy summed it up. Sometimes you or they don't know. Sometimes trying to 'communicate' about it makes it all worse.


Yes. A person’s “dysfunctions” are hidden in their Shadow (Carl Jung), sometimes very deeply. And as you say trying to talk about them can make things a whole lot worse.




Shadow
Hidden or unconscious aspects of oneself, both good and bad, which the ego has either repressed or never recognized. (See also repression.)


The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. ["The Shadow," CW 9ii, par. 14.]


Before unconscious contents have been differentiated, the shadow is in effect the whole of the unconscious. It is commonly personified in dreams by persons of the same sex as the dreamer.


The shadow is composed for the most part of repressed desires and uncivilized impulses, morally inferior motives, childish fantasies and resentments, etc. ... all those things about oneself one is not proud of. These unacknowledged personal characteristics are often experienced in others through the mechanism of projection.


Although, with insight and good will, the shadow can to some extent be assimilated into the conscious personality, experience shows that there are certain features which offer the most obstinate resistance to moral control and prove almost impossible to influence. These resistances are usually bound up with projections, which are not recognized as such, and their recognition is a moral achievement beyond the ordinary. While some traits peculiar to the shadow can be recognized without too much difficulty as one's personal qualities, in this case both insight and good will are unavailing because the cause of the emotion appears to lie, beyond all possibility of doubt, in the other person. [Ibid., par. 16.]


The realization of the shadow is inhibited by the persona. To the degree that we identify with a bright persona, the shadow is correspondingly dark. Thus shadow and persona stand in a compensatory relationship, and the conflict between them is invariably present in an outbreak of neurosis. The characteristic depression at such times indicates the need to realize that one is not all one pretends or wishes to be.


There is no generally effective technique for assimilating the shadow. It is more like diplomacy or statesmanship and it is always an individual matter. First one has to accept and take seriously the existence of the shadow. Second, one has to become aware of its qualities and intentions. This happens through conscientious attention to moods, fantasies and impulses. Third, a long process of negotiation is unavoidable.


It is a therapeutic necessity, indeed, the first requisite of any thorough psychological method, for consciousness to confront its shadow. In the end this must lead to some kind of union, even though the union consists at first in an open conflict, and often remains so for a long time. It is a struggle that cannot be abolished by rational means. When it is wilfully repressed it continues in the unconscious and merely expresses itself indirectly and all the more dangerously, so no advantage is gained. The struggle goes on until the opponents run out of breath. What the outcome will be can never be seen in advance. The only certain thing is that both parties will be changed. ["Rex and Regina," CW 14, par. 514.]


This process of coming to terms with the Other in us is well worth while, because in this way we get to know aspects of our nature which we would not allow anybody else to show us and which we ourselves would never have admitted. [The Conjunction," ibid., par. 706.]


Responsibility for the shadow rests with the ego. That is why the shadow is a moral problem. It is one thing to realize what it looks like ... what we are capable of. It is quite something else to determine what we can live out, or with.


Confrontation with the shadow produces at first a dead balance, a standstill that hampers moral decisions and makes convictions ineffective or even impossible. Everything becomes doubtful. [Ibid., par. 708.]


The shadow is not, however, only the dark underside of the personality. It also consists of instincts, abilities and positive moral qualities that have long been buried or never been conscious.


The shadow is merely somewhat inferior, primitive, unadapted, and awkward; not wholly bad. It even contains childish or primitive qualities which would in a way vitalize and embellish human existence, but ... convention forbids![Psychology and Religion," CW 11, par. 134.]


If it has been believed hitherto that the human shadow was the source of all evil, it can now be ascertained on closer investigation that the unconscious man, that is, his shadow, does not consist only of morally reprehensible tendencies, but also displays a number of good qualities, such as normal instincts, appropriate reactions, realistic insights, creative impulses, etc. [Conclusion," CW 9ii, par. 423.]


An outbreak of neurosis constellates both sides of the shadow: those qualities and activities one is not proud of, and new possibilities one never knew were there.
Jung distinguished between the personal and the collective or archetypal shadow.


With a little self criticism one can see through the shadow ... so far as its nature is personal. But when it appears as an archetype, one encounters the same difficulties as with anima and animus. In other words, it is quite within the bounds of possibility for a man to recognize the relative evil of his nature, but it is a rare and shattering experience for him to gaze into the face of absolute evil. ["The Shadow," ibid., par. 19.]


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

AFEH said:


> It’s why when a man is in trouble in his marriage the very first thing I say to do is to check his wife out. To spy on her. I get hammered for it sometimes but I talk from very painful and hard won firsthand experience.
> 
> But unless that toxic friend or lover is off the scene all the guy will do is waste his time, money and energy. He’ll just spin his wheels burning rubber but getting nowhere.


AFEH,

Same here, I completely agree with you. I also learned the hard way and I still can't believe what a [email protected] I used to be, letting stuff go on out of ignorance and complatency


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## SimplyAmorous

> *AFEH said:* With a little *self criticism* one can see through the shadow ... so far as its nature is personal. But when it appears as an archetype, one encounters the same difficulties as with anima and animus. In other words, it is quite within the bounds of possibility for a man to recognize the relative evil of his nature, but it is a rare and shattering experience for him to gaze into the face of absolute evil.


I am aware of how Evil I can be AFEH ~if I was pushed in a corner or had to deal with certain situations ~ I know I wouldn't handle them well, I don't even have to experience them to know this fact......I've always been *self critical */mentally putting myself in the very shoes of others ... husband tells me I am too hard on myself sometimes.... *does this mean I am in touch with my shadow then? *

You are so well studied on these matters. I don't understand it so much, but I try to be authentic in how I relate to others -even if it makes me look bad -but at least I'm being true to myself...this matters to me. 

Doesn't this also help us sympathize with others and their not so shining moments.... We all have them, why fool ourselves. It still doesn't define us.

To have this PLUS a healthy *self compassion* to go along with it... isn't this what we all need ~ to help us in our relationships ?? 

Test how self-compassionate you are


----------



## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am aware of how Evil I can be AFEH ~if I was pushed in a corner or had to deal with certain situations ~ I know I wouldn't handle them well, I don't even have to experience them to know this fact......I've always been *self critical */mentally putting myself in the very shoes of others ... husband tells me I am too hard on myself sometimes.... *does this mean I am in touch with my shadow then? *
> 
> You are so well studied on these matters. I don't understand it so much, but I try to be authentic in how I relate to others -even if it makes me look bad -but at least I'm being true to myself...this matters to me.
> 
> Doesn't this also help us sympathize with others and their not so shining moments.... We all have them, why fool ourselves. It still doesn't define us.
> 
> To have this PLUS a healthy *self compassion* to go along with it... isn't this what we all need ~ to help us in our relationships ??
> 
> Test how self-compassionate you are


We all have a persona (or two or three). It’s essential for living in the world of others. It’s our face we show to the world. You’ve probably one of the best personas going as demonstrated by your popularity here and I don’t doubt that it reflects a lot of what is deep inside of you, your core values and beliefs.

Kind of what you see is what you get. I’m like that, I hope. But I’m not that good at moderating myself all the time, as witnessed by my banning. Plus I could do with changing my persona’s style a bit. Well maybe a lot.

So yes you probably are quite in touch with your shadow. But it is really for others to tell you how they see and experience your shadow. And it will be somewhat different dependent upon how a person experiences you. And that will be dependent upon their own core values and beliefs. So it’s quite possible different people will articulate different contents of your shadow. Should they be brave enough to tell you. No, scrub that last bit lol.



For me this is what MC is all about. It’s for a third party, the MC, to somehow delicately and diplomatically tell the guy’s wife about her shadow and that she’s a crazy woman. No scrub that last bit as well lol.

But it is for the MC to bring to the conscious awareness of the spouses their shadow sides. But not only that, how their shadow is impacting the health of their marriage and to teach them more healthy ways of “being”.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> Kind of what you see is what you get. I’m like that, I hope. But I’m not that good at moderating myself all the time, as witnessed by my banning. Plus I could do with changing my persona’s style a bit. Well maybe a lot.


I







reading this...I always know when you're ticked with someone on here







....these start flying .... :sleeping::sleeping::sleeping::sleeping: I shouldn't :rofl: (but I have)..at the same time...I'm happy I am not on the receiving end.



> For me this is what MC is all about. It’s for a third party, the MC, to somehow delicately and diplomatically tell the guy’s wife about her shadow and that she’s a crazy woman. No scrub that last bit as well lol.
> 
> But it is for the MC to bring to the conscious awareness of the spouses their shadow sides. But not only that, how their shadow is impacting the health of their marriage and to teach them more healthy ways of “being”.


 I remember someone saying on here, they are not allowed to suggest a diagnosis... I don't know... The Role of the Marriage Counselor ....to unearth our shadows , face them & find peace with who we really are, what we need & can we live with each other & achieve happiness & peace. It all makes sense. 

*If* a couple can achieve this on their own, that'd be wonderful... but I know, I know....this just doesn't happen for all.....especially when they've allowed years to roll by ~ problems/hurts embedded so deep -they are fighting about everything ELSE but the root issues...(and they don't even recognize this is happening)... Resentment walls the other couldn't even climb to save his or her life... Yeah....a 3rd party is needed to help them tumble all of this down.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Trenton said:


> TAG - in a lot of the gospel, deceit is expected and promoted.
> 
> Here, where it's being hashed out by thoughtful human beings it always sounds so much better to me.


Fair enough. I don't generally counsel deceit, and try to correct that, but there are only so many breaks I can take in the day to come here. Having said that, sometimes the relationship dynamic is so broken that some deceit may be necessary in the beginning to get things started. 

I will also admit that it can be a difficult concept to articulate accurately. Words have different meanings to different people. So, for example, I have moved away from defining a person as "alpha" because what I am trying to convey gets lost in what has become a very loaded term. It can be difficult to get beyond the terminology, and frankly some people have no interest in doing so. But, as Deejo asutely puts it, that is there prerogative.


----------



## AFEH

Ten_year_hubby said:


> AFEH,
> 
> Same here, I completely agree with you. I also learned the hard way and I still can't believe what a [email protected] I used to be, letting stuff go on out of ignorance and complatency


Yes. I think it’s also out of love, in that love really is sometimes blind. It blinds us to what is really going on. And that pedestal has a lot to answer for.


----------



## Halien

Trenton said:


> TAG - in a lot of the gospel, deceit is expected and promoted.
> 
> Here, where it's being hashed out by thoughtful human beings it always sounds so much better to me.


Since the whole subject seems to come across as deceitful, I'm curious about whether there could be a misunderstanding, or if your concern is with any form of a relationship approach that isn't communicated with full transparency, even if a person feels drawn to the change as a part of their personal responsibility to their marriage? 

I only wish to understand, so I hope you'll pardon my misunderstanding.

If a woman is a young newlywed, and her husband is proud of himself for fixing the garbage disposal, even though it took him three hours to do something that her father could do in thirty seconds, making her wonder if he is just fooling himself, is it deceitful for her to keep that to herself and try instead to build him up with praise? Or, if she occasionally falls victim to certain self-defeating habits, like emotional eating, insecurity, and questioning her husband continuously when he is away, even though he did nothing wrong, but she commits herself to becoming a more confident woman and wife, are you saying that she is being deceitful if she implements the plan without telling him why she is relating to him differently? I understand that in a good relationship, she should be able to tell him, but I wouldn't naturally conclude that his happiness was not a part of the reason that she chose to pursue a personal journey to maturity. Sure, some women may change the way they relate to their husband in such a situation with the goal of manipulating him into treating her better, but I'm confused because it almost seems like you are suggesting that a woman like this is deceitful merely because she is trying to change, and feels that it is a personal responsibility.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Halien said:


> Since the whole subject seems to come across as deceitful, I'm curious about whether there could be a misunderstanding, or if your concern is with any form of a relationship approach that isn't communicated with full transparency, even if a person feels drawn to the change as a part of their personal responsibility to their marriage?
> 
> I only wish to understand, so I hope you'll pardon my misunderstanding.
> 
> *If a woman is a young newlywed, and her husba is proud of himself for fixing the garbage disposal, even though it took him three hours to do something that her father could do in thirty seconds, making her wonder if he is just fooling himself, is it deceitful for her to keep that to herself and try instead to build him up with praise? Or, if she occasionally falls victim to certain self-defeating habits, like emotional eating, insecurity, and questioning her husband continuously when he is away, even though he did nothing wrong, but she commits herself to becoming a more confident woman and wife, are you saying that she is being deceitful if she implements the plan without telling him why she is relating to him differently?* I understand that in a good relationship, she should be able to tell him, but I wouldn't naturally conclude that his happiness was not a part of the reason that she chose to pursue a personal journey to maturity. Sure, some women may change the way they relate to their husband in such a situation with the goal of manipulating him into treating her better, but I'm confused because it almost seems like you are suggesting that a woman like this is deceitful merely because she is trying to change, and feels that it is a personal responsibility.


I cannot answer for Trenton,
But I would " hazard a guess" I think its a misunderstanding.
But I've learnt that in my relationship, I cannot take a hardline or idealist approach to _everything._
So I think the problem here is basically in the approach to relationships. There are fundamental rules but every situation cannot be governed by just these rules only.
The " full transparency / deceit " rebuttal to the " man up " argument really cannot apply [ in all cases ] because the " man up " concept can be considered relative and situational.

The example highlighted above is an excellent one. Relationships are very fluid and dynamic , and I believe that _intent_ behind actions plays an important part.


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## Lilme831983

I think Alpha makes are attractive yes when it comesto general attraction but there has to be a haooy medium. Many Alphas think about the endgame only the numbers they will achieve and not getting the girl and keeping her. If you are going for that then keep doing what you do but once you actually settle down and find that gir who has it all and is a " game changer" then hopefully you tone down your Alpha traits and tune into your more Beta traits because woman need validation, someone who can be their partner as well as a strong male figure. Getting the girlis easy maintaining is hardest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Adex

This thread is still going strong? People are realizing the awesomeness of the alpha.


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## SimplyAmorous

Adex said:


> This thread is still going strong? People are realizing the awesomeness of the alpha.


I still prefer a man tipped Beta (but has enough Alpha to get him through life & love)... the "family man" type... Just saying. 

Betas are more naturally Romantic... the men with the slow hand & the easy touch...those "one woman" types, yeah they put us on a Pedestal ~ they are our White Knights. 

....So long as WE recognize them for the great men they are & treat them the way they deserve to be treated







...... not everyone can be the Alpha Dog. 

I wouldn't want the type women are lined up around the corner for anyway ~ that'd be a hassle to deal with . 

I'll tightly hang onto my Gamma /Sigma (as Machiavelli , the expert on these matters ~ coined him.) This rocks for me. 

A breakdown of the various types.....



> The *Alpha Traits* are those associated with classic “manly man” strengths. Power, dominance, physical ability, bravery, wealth, cool and confidence. Oh and good genes. These are the things that attract women and turn them on sexually. The Alpha Traits are linked to the dopamine response in women.
> 
> *Alpha *= attraction building = Dopamine = In Love = Excitement





> The *Beta Traits* are those associated with the strengths of being a nice guy / “family man”. Kindness, being a good listener, the ability to help with the children, dependability, thoughtfulness, compassion and patience. These all create a sense of comfort and safety for the woman, and relax her because she feels that if she became pregnant, the Beta Trait male isn’t going to abandon her and the baby.
> 
> *Beta *= comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment"


So Alpha Traits create attraction and that “in love” feeling, and Beta Traits create the pair bond and makes her feel relaxed enough to have sex. You need a balance of both Alpha and Beta in a marriage to maximize her desire to have sex with you.



> *Delta Males*: These kind of guys put off a good front of acting like they're "Alpha males" by conforming into whatever is fashionable and admired by the masses. Most of these men (if you can call them that) need a lot of assurance by society to the point of having little backbone to think for themselves. Sure, many Delta males are surrounded by "friends" and are good at get their fair share of girls by "wooing" them with some pop-culture nonsense (whether it's A&F-style gauche preppiness or poser hip-hop wannabe thuggishness), but that crowd and attention is more imperative for their self-esteem than anything else. For if you take away all of the girls from them and get these same males by themselves, a Delta male's personality completely changes and their "true self" is revealed. Many of these kind of guys are rather weak-minded, crowd-pleasing, conformists who aren't even worthy of the name "Covert Betas" and "Betas in the Closet."





> *Gamma Males*: These kind of dudes are more or less self-reliant, self-motivated, and self-assured in their own personality that no one can change their ways. Some of these kind of males are considered loners, but this is not to case for all Gamma Males. Because of their stern personality, many people tend to write off these men as "Betas" by default because they won't conform to being whatever "Chic Alpha" trait exists during that time period.
> 
> The man who's confident in his own self-worth and looks is said to go a long way with what women want. But as for recent times (I'll say since the early 2000s), most females are more impressed with being "wooed" with inane attributes, something that most Gamma males will refuse to do unless their original personality is what woos the female. These men, until recently, have had no problems getting with "American females" but recently, even these males are getting thrown in the "weak male" shelf because of their lack of conforming to the masses.
> 
> Though getting women - even in today's time - isn't as much of a problem as it is for the "stereotypical Alpha Male," this is still a concern for quite a few Gamma males who were either born too recent (those in their teens and twenties) or those who live in areas where narcissism and American pop-culture rule the minds of the masses.





> *Lambdas* - the gays. They have their own social hierarchy. They can fill any role from Alpha to Omega, but they tend to play the part rather than actually be it because the heterosexual social construct only encompasses the public part of their lives. Example: Neil Patrick Harris. Suggestion: Straights will be more tolerant if you keep the bathhouse behavior behind closed doors.





> *Sigmas* - the lone wolves. Occasionally mistaken for Alphas, particularly by women and Alphas, they are not leaders and will actively resist the attempt of others to draft them. Alphas instinctively view them as challenges and either dislike or warily respect them. Some Deltas and most Omegas fancy themselves Sigmas, but the true Sigma's withdrawal from the pack is not a reaction to the way he is treated, it is pure instinct. Example: Clint Eastwood's movie persona. Suggestion: Entertain the possibility that other people are not always Hell. The banal idiocy is incidental, it's not intentional torture.





> *Omegas* - the losers. Even the Gamma males despise them. That which doesn't kill them can make them stronger, but most never surmount the desperate need to belong caused by their social rejection. Omegas can be the most dangerous of men because the pain of their constant rejection renders the suffering of others completely meaningless in their eyes. Omegas tend to cluster in defensive groups; the dividing line between the Omega and the Sigma is twofold and can be easily recognized by a) the behavior of male Betas and Deltas and b) the behavior of women. Women tend to find outliers attractive in general, but while they respond to Sigmas almost as strongly as they do to Alphas, they correctly find Omega males creepier and much scarier than Gamma males. Example: Eric Harris Suggestion: Your rejection isn't entirely personal. Observe the difference in your own behavior and the way the Betas act. And try not to start off conversations with women by sharing "interesting facts" with them.


----------



## trex

Trenton said:


> Can you give me one?


Okay, mine. 

My wife is intelligent and can be wonderfully caring, but has a short temper and is quickly stressed beyond her capacity. In her heart of hearts, she wants me to be happy with her and our marriage, and part of her knows that I'm not (this is obviously a long story cut very short). Unfortunately, she's not able to fully face this because it would be too difficult.

If I were to come in as bluntly as that, she would shut down, not be able to address it, and instead become an uneasy mess that that is in even worse shape than before it was brought up. She would go on like this for months, until she's able to cope. She'd probably say something to the effect that she's sorry knows that she can be a b**** or doesn't take care of my needs or something similar, and that it's just been that she's been under a lot of stress or not feeling well or something similar, and as soon as that's over she'll be better to me.

And nothing would change. No hobbies, all work and chores and "helping her", little sleep, little intimacy. I would call it co-dependent, except that I don't depend on her for much of anything. I just don't get what I want out of our relationship.

I've been through this iteration in my marriage more time than I care to admit. It's obvious to me that just being the supportive "equal", by which I mean that I give her the space and support she needs to get herself straight is not fixing anything. In the process she has disregarded any boundaries that a reasonable person would recognize.

To summarize, some people have a hard time getting themselves in order, which I consider a prerequisite to both people coming together like equals as you propose. At least in my case, I have kindly and politely told her that these things need to change. It hasn't worked. The cold reaction to this would be to just leave. Far colder, in my mind, than even some more extreme "alpha" measures to at least defend yourself.


----------



## trex

I'll also add, that while I'm trying to change my dynamic with my wife, I don't like it. Not at all.

I would far prefer to live under the "do unto others" philosophy. I would prefer to let my wife be herself, and she let me be myself and it works out. I have invested a lot of time, money, and energy in improving myself for pretty much my entire life. I have made it a point to live and let live in all of my relationships, and I feel that this is the most difficult, and right, path.

My marriage is my *only* exception. Call it youthful naivety, call it a lack of good mentors, call it pure stupidity. I now find myself in an unsatisfying marriage with two young children. I have no intention of abandoning my wife or family, but I also refuse to allow another ten years to waste away. 

If my wife is incapable of getting herself together enough to make this the equitable and deep partnership that we both want it to be, then I will at least make sure that I maintain my individuality and the things that will make me look back on my life with a smile. 

I will give her the full opportunity to join me in this adventure, because life is better with a good companion, and I want nothing more than to fully experience a deep and open connection with another person who I love this much. As it stands now, I cannot trust her with that level of access.

So, I am gradually turning up the volume. I am making sure my own stuff is order. I am reminding her of the boundaries consistently and without judgement, and I'm reminding her of our shared relationship goals. I am now moving into the phase where I'm gently admonishing her for disregarding them. If she does not begin to correct herself, I will more directly correct her.

The last thing I ever want to be is a d!ck, especially to my beloved wife.


----------



## AFEH

trex said:


> I'll also add, that while I'm trying to change my dynamic with my wife, I don't like it. Not at all.
> 
> I would far prefer to live under the "do unto others" philosophy. I would prefer to let my wife be herself, and she let me be myself and it works out. I have invested a lot of time, money, and energy in improving myself for pretty much my entire life. I have made it a point to live and let live in all of my relationships, and I feel that this is the most difficult, and right, path.
> 
> My marriage is my *only* exception. Call it youthful naivety, call it a lack of good mentors, call it pure stupidity. I now find myself in an unsatisfying marriage with two young children. I have no intention of abandoning my wife or family, but I also refuse to allow another ten years to waste away.
> 
> If my wife is incapable of getting herself together enough to make this the equitable and deep partnership that we both want it to be, then I will at least make sure that I maintain my individuality and the things that will make me look back on my life with a smile.
> 
> I will give her the full opportunity to join me in this adventure, because life is better with a good companion, and I want nothing more than to fully experience a deep and open connection with another person who I love this much. As it stands now, I cannot trust her with that level of access.
> 
> So, I am gradually turning up the volume. I am making sure my own stuff is order. I am reminding her of the boundaries consistently and without judgement, and I'm reminding her of our shared relationship goals. I am now moving into the phase where I'm gently admonishing her for disregarding them. If she does not begin to correct herself, I will more directly correct her.
> 
> The last thing I ever want to be is a d!ck, especially to my beloved wife.


I’m convinced that both husbands and wives take the dysfunctions of their parent’s marriage into their own. And from then on it’s kind of like learning on the job as we go along.

But as a husband we don’t really have a hope in hell of changing our wives. It is surely a fool’s errand.


So why not take a look at and thoroughly examine The Marriage Course - Explore the Marriage Course | Alpha USA with detail at Relationship Central: Find out More . 


If you attend surely you’ll both then know the structure and dynamics that turn an unhealthy relationship/marriage into a healthy one. Just ask your wife to attend with you. If she says no, then knowing what I know now I’d just give up on my marriage and go through separation and divorce in the best possible way. Why? Because if your wife wont even get on the dance floor with you, you don’t stand a chance in hell in improving your marriage.


----------



## trex

AFEH said:


> I’m convinced that both husbands and wives take the dysfunctions of their parent’s marriage into their own. And from then on it’s kind of like learning on the job as we go along.


So true. Neither one of us can point to our parents as relationship role models. All of our parents are divorced, in most cases a couple times.

Thanks for the references AFEH. I'll definitely check those out.


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## AFEH

trex said:


> Okay, mine.
> 
> My wife is intelligent and can be wonderfully caring, but has a short temper and is quickly stressed beyond her capacity. In her heart of hearts, she wants me to be happy with her and our marriage, and part of her knows that I'm not (this is obviously a long story cut very short). Unfortunately, she's not able to fully face this because it would be too difficult.
> 
> If I were to come in as bluntly as that, she would shut down, not be able to address it, and instead become an uneasy mess that that is in even worse shape than before it was brought up. She would go on like this for months, until she's able to cope. She'd probably say something to the effect that she's sorry knows that she can be a b**** or doesn't take care of my needs or something similar, and that it's just been that she's been under a lot of stress or not feeling well or something similar, and as soon as that's over she'll be better to me.
> 
> And nothing would change. No hobbies, all work and chores and "helping her", little sleep, little intimacy. *I would call it co-dependent, except that I don't depend on her for much of anything.* I just don't get what I want out of our relationship.
> 
> I've been through this iteration in my marriage more time than I care to admit. It's obvious to me that just being the supportive "equal", by which I mean that I give her the space and support she needs to get herself straight is not fixing anything. In the process she has disregarded any boundaries that a reasonable person would recognize.
> 
> To summarize, some people have a hard time getting themselves in order, which I consider a prerequisite to both people coming together like equals as you propose. At least in my case, I have kindly and politely told her that these things need to change. It hasn't worked. The cold reaction to this would be to just leave. Far colder, in my mind, than even some more extreme "alpha" measures to at least defend yourself.


That’s not what codependency is about. It’s about trying to change your wife or husband. Which is exactly what you are doing so you are a codependent.

But if you try and change your wife she will resist you. Instead you should “lead her to change”. Inspire and motivate her. But do it through a proxy, through other people like those at The Marriage Course - Explore the Marriage Course | Alpha USA or a marriage counsellor.


In essence what you are trying to do is to change your wife’s “culture”. Her traditions, her “way of life”. Her customs. These things are deeply embedded in the deepest parts of a person’s psyche. It is Who They Are. It’s hardwired, super glued stuff. Although it will not seem that way to you as evidenced by your attempts to change her.


She needs her epiphany moment. Her “wake up call” and it is part your job to make that happen. For me the best possible way is attendance of The Marriage Course.


----------



## AFEH

trex said:


> So true. Neither one of us can point to our parents as relationship role models. All of our parents are divorced, in most cases a couple times.
> 
> Thanks for the references AFEH. I'll definitely check those out.


You are very welcome.

I think it just $90 for seven sessions including a meal. It's not interactive, no attendees have to talk. The couple I know that runs them told me sometimes a husband and wife have their backs coldly turned to one another on the first session and they observe them turning towards one another and warmth re-entering the relationship.


If you want to attend, if it was me I'd contact them and ask for advice wrt getting my wife to attend, before mentioning it to my wife. They may well help you with objection handling.


----------



## trex

AFEH said:


> That’s not what codependency is about. It’s about trying to change your wife or husband. Which is exactly what you are doing so you are a codependent.
> 
> But if you try and change your wife she will resist you. Instead you should “lead her to change”. Inspire and motivate her. But do it through a proxy, through other people like those at The Marriage Course - Explore the Marriage Course | Alpha USA or a marriage counsellor.
> 
> 
> In essence what you are trying to do is to change your wife’s “culture”. Her traditions, her “way of life”. Her customs. These things are deeply embedded in the deepest parts of a person’s psyche. It is Who They Are. It’s hardwired, super glued stuff. Although it will not seem that way to you as evidenced by your attempts to change her.
> 
> 
> She needs her epiphany moment. Her “wake up call” and it is part your job to make that happen. For me the best possible way is attendance of The Marriage Course.


I'm not following. I read what you said, and I'm in complete agreement. I haven't tried to change my wife at all - I have just absorbed all the slack. 

More recently, by defending my boundaries, protecting myself in this relationship more, and giving her the opportunity to come along, you're saying that I'm being co-dependent because I want to change her? This is where I'm getting lost.


----------



## AFEH

trex said:


> I'm not following. I read what you said, and I'm in complete agreement. I haven't tried to change my wife at all - I have just absorbed all the slack.
> 
> More recently, by defending my boundaries, protecting myself in this relationship more, and giving her the opportunity to come along, you're saying that I'm being co-dependent because I want to change her? This is where I'm getting lost.





trex said:


> I'll also add, that while I'm trying to change my dynamic with my wife, I don't like it. Not at all.


The dynamic wont change unless your wife’s behaviour changes. Your wife’s behaviour wont change unless she changes some of her core values and beliefs. In that her external behaviour, what you “see”, is a direct reflection of her core values and beliefs and the rules she lives her life by.


So by trying to change the dynamics, it follows that you are trying to change your wife. Which makes you a codependent. In essence you are a codependent to your wife’s dysfunctional behaviour.

Looking at yourself, most especially with your boundaries is an absolutely excellent way ahead. And as sure as eggs are eggs your wife will start reacting differently to your new boundaries. But her reactions may still be “dysfunctional”.


She needs to be onboard with the “program”. I think attendance of that course the best way to achieve that. If she wont get onboard, well the quicker you find that out and accept it then the better it will be for you.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Throught this entire thread I have been saying that this concept is gender neutral. There are aspects that apply to men that can apply to women . But there are some things that are specifically designed for men that would make absolutely no sense to a woman or someone not inclined towards wanting understanding it.

I will give a very simple, parallel example of something that happened to me very early in our marriage that gave me tremendous respect for my wife.
Yes, this is an example of how the concept can work for a female.
I was once a strict believer that in a marriage two people shouls only have joint bank accounts ,and a woman should not have her own bank account.
" Married couples should share everything " was my mantra.
Many people here on TAM still believe in that , but to each his own.
My wife came from a background where she was fiercely independent. She was employed , did her own stuff and lived her life. So initially,she resisted, I insisted and then she supposedly " gave in " after I 
" convinced " her.
But unknown to me , she kept a * secret * account. Secret because I knew nothing of it until that one time when I was in a financial jam, needing a few thousand dollars,and she simply handed me a debit card , which I never saw before,and told me use it.
I was shocked, and embarrassed.
I realized that I had badly underestimated her intuitiveness.
I apologized.
She didn't have this secret account for herself alone. The _intention_ was to help either or both of us in a time of need.
I never asked her anything about that account,I just respected her intelligence a lot more after that.
I could have accused her of all sort of things, but I saw her actions for exactly what it was.
I had just started a business,and I was spreading our finances thin. She knew we were on thin ice financially , so she took action on her own, for herself, and it has benefited us. Had she not done that , both of us would have been in deep waters, trying not to drown.
It helped us.
My respect for her grew.
I now encourage her to keep making money and saving.
She now has a greater sense of financial freedom.

Since that " event" we have never had an argument about money.
So exactly how does this apply?
There are some situations where a person in a relationship needs to do stuff for themselves. Sometimes the other partner may not agree, or are unable, or are unwilling to see your point of view. [ like in my case ] 
This concept is not a panacea , one size does not fit all couples. But what is certain is that when applied correctly, it is quite effective in changing the status quo.

Nothing changes if the approach is the same.


----------



## AFEH

Surely CM, it’s the contemporary focus on Gender Neutrality that leads to most of the Manning Up stuff.


----------



## trex

AFEH said:


> The dynamic wont change unless your wife’s behaviour changes. Your wife’s behaviour wont change unless she changes some of her core values and beliefs. In that her external behaviour, what you “see”, is a direct reflection of her core values and beliefs and the rules she lives her life by.
> 
> 
> So by trying to change the dynamics, it follows that you are trying to change your wife. Which makes you a codependent. In essence you are a codependent to your wife’s dysfunctional behaviour.
> 
> Looking at yourself, most especially with your boundaries is an absolutely excellent way ahead. And as sure as eggs are eggs your wife will start reacting differently to your new boundaries. But her reactions may still be “dysfunctional”.
> 
> 
> She needs to be onboard with the “program”. I think attendance of that course the best way to achieve that. If she wont get onboard, well the quicker you find that out and accept it then the better it will be for you.


Hmm. This is not a side of codependency I'm familiar with ('cause, you know, I'm an expert in codependency.  ). I think of codependency as a dependence on the needs of or control of another. I've never been dependent on her needs or control, and I'm actively just trying to break the cycle of her control.

Also, in my heart of hearts, I don't trust that people change like this. I'm relying on the fact that this is a new dynamic in our relationship that I'm creating. Her natural reaction to this may be very good and refreshing (the women in her family tend to steamroll weak guys and often gravitate to over-controlling jerks).

For several years, my words said "I don't like this" but my actions said "it's okay if you keep doing it". This has been entirely my fault (I still struggle with being too nice a fault, but there it is). If I change *my* actions, I'm changing the dynamic and it may be enough to change the relationship for the better without her doing anything other than react as she always would. 

In other words, this is a dynamic of our relationship that I've never explored, and she may naturally react very well to me putting my foot down and holding it there. You are right that how she behaves is cultural for her, and it would be drastic for her to undo it at this point. I honestly don't think that I'll ever make her less controlling or temperamental, but if I just don't let her control me, then I'm not changing her *and* I'm changing the dynamic in the relationship. 

She may react very well to this side of me she hasn't seen (this is more closely aligned to my 8-5 persona - I really wish I could give it a rest at home), give me the space happily, tone down the negative energy, and shower me with nakedness. 

Then again, she may not, and an intervention may be necessary. I would like to give the first approach a shot first, though. If it comes to an intervention, I think that it may be the last step before inevitable separation.


----------



## AFEH

trex said:


> Hmm. This is not a side of codependency I'm familiar with ('cause, you know, I'm an expert in codependency.  ). I think of codependency as a dependence on the needs of or control of another. I've never been dependent on her needs or control, and I'm actively just trying to break the cycle of her control.
> 
> Also, in my heart of hearts, I don't trust that people change like this. I'm relying on the fact that this is a new dynamic in our relationship that I'm creating. Her natural reaction to this may be very good and refreshing (the women in her family tend to steamroll weak guys and often gravitate to over-controlling jerks).
> 
> For several years, my words said "I don't like this" but my actions said "it's okay if you keep doing it". This has been entirely my fault (I still struggle with being too nice a fault, but there it is). If I change *my* actions, I'm changing the dynamic and it may be enough to change the relationship for the better without her doing anything other than react as she always would.
> 
> In other words, this is a dynamic of our relationship that I've never explored, and she may naturally react very well to me putting my foot down and holding it there. You are right that how she behaves is cultural for her, and it would be drastic for her to undo it at this point. I honestly don't think that I'll ever make her less controlling or temperamental, but if I just don't let her control me, then I'm not changing her *and* I'm changing the dynamic in the relationship.
> 
> She may react very well to this side of me she hasn't seen (this is more closely aligned to my 8-5 persona - I really wish I could give it a rest at home), give me the space happily, tone down the negative energy, and shower me with nakedness.
> 
> Then again, she may not, and an intervention may be necessary. I would like to give the first approach a shot first, though. If it comes to an intervention, I think that it may be the last step before inevitable separation.


I don’t know how far you’re into with changing your boundaries. I changed mine as a somewhat desperate, last ditch attempt to stop my wife’s passive aggression. My changes came out as “My way or the highway”. Mind you that’s was after some years of being patient and tolerant, empathetic, compassionate and understanding. All I discovered was that those things just get you “more of the same”.


If you haven’t read it try Hold on to Your NUTs: The Relationship Manual for Men: Wayne M. Levine: 9780979054402: Amazon.com: Books and read some other books on boundaries. I say this because when you change your boundaries under these circumstances it’s usually because you’ve become intolerant. Intolerance indicates a massive change within a person and your wife will need time to get to know and adjust to the “new you”.

It’s better you learn about these things, the dynamics associated with changing your boundaries, before you actually go ahead with the changes.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

trex said:


> To summarize, some people have a hard time getting themselves in order, which I consider a prerequisite to both people coming together like equals as you propose. At least in my case, I have kindly and politely told her that these things need to change. It hasn't worked. The cold reaction to this would be to just leave. Far colder, in my mind, than even some more extreme "alpha" measures to at least defend yourself.


We have to accept that some partners may be lacking in maturity and may never come to a functional level of adult relationship. As you accurately observe, the result will not be a relationship of equals, it's just may not ever happen. Clearly, this is a situation that requires more than just working on one self. Not having read any of the alpha handbooks, I would humbly ask the knowledgeable contributors to this thread exactly what "becoming the alpha" would bring to this kind of relationship.


----------



## Deejo

Ten_year_hubby said:


> , I would humbly ask the knowledgeable contributors to this thread exactly what "becoming the alpha" would bring to this kind of relationship.


It's end.

Up to the person whether or not that is an acceptable outcome.

A well integrated man or woman, is not going to tolerate disrespectful and unbalanced behavior from their partner.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Deejo said:


> It's end.
> 
> Up to the person whether or not that is an acceptable outcome.
> 
> A well integrated man or woman, is not going to tolerate disrespectful and unbalanced behavior from their partner.


So we would expect the result of a man becoming the alpha to be his ending an unsatisfying marriage to an immature spouse? No value judgement intended here, I'm just trying to understand.


----------



## trex

Ten_year_hubby said:


> So we would expect the result of a man becoming the alpha to be his ending an unsatisfying marriage to an immature spouse? No value judgement intended here, I'm just trying to understand.


Similar question here. It's what I _half_ expect. However, I'm leaving open the possibility for improvement. There is a difference between "improve" and "change". While I've never really believed people fundamentally change, they can improve with the proper motivation. I see a marked difference in how my wife behaves in different circles. She can be as sweet as candy when she wants to be. Part of me believes that laziness is part of the reason she treats me like she does. I don't think she wants to treat me that way. There's just never been any consequence to her doing so.

Since I've never enforced any boundaries on her, I think it is at least worthwhile to stand up for that and see if it opens her eyes. I do see a lot of potential in our marriage if she can get her emotions under control, at least with me. If she is unwilling or unable, then at least I know I did what I could. 

BTW, thanks for injection of reality deejo.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

trex said:


> I see a marked difference in how my wife behaves in different circles. She can be as sweet as candy when she wants to be. Part of me believes that laziness is part of the reason she treats me like she does. I don't think she wants to treat me that way. There's just never been any consequence to her doing so.


The differences in behaviors you observe are due to there being intimate and non-intimate relationships. No correlation between the two. This doesn't let you wife off the hook for the way she treats you, it just explains (rather than laziness) why she can be charming to friends and co-workers and a bow to you.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Ten_year_hubby said:


> So we would expect the result of a man becoming the alpha to be his ending an unsatisfying marriage to an immature spouse? No value judgement intended here, I'm just trying to understand.


Well it has to be the end of _something._
Either the end of the problem he's facing in the marriage, or the end of his attitude that's enabling his spouse's terrible attitude towards him or the end of the marriage itself.

That's the meaning behind " No More Nice Guy."


----------



## Deejo

Ten_year_hubby said:


> So we would expect the result of a man becoming the alpha to be his ending an unsatisfying marriage to an immature spouse? No value judgement intended here, I'm just trying to understand.


If the establishment of boundaries, equitable communication, and reciprocity when it comes to meeting one anothers needs is overlooked, ignored, or outright rejected by your partner, than yes.

I use the word threshold often. You choose what your threshold is. This is why I reject the notion that any of this stuff is manipulation. It's conditioning. It is the exact same methodology that slowly converts, your balanced, happy, relationship at the outset, into one where your spouse openly disrespects you and/or ignores your needs.

It's a reset.

And if your spouse rejects the reset, than you are left with a simple decision. 

What's your threshold for ending the relationship. What is the dealbreaker?

If I knew then, what I know now, I can say with certainty that my marriage would have resolved, or ended much sooner than the timeframe over which it slowly died.


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## Ten_year_hubby

Deejo said:


> If the establishment of boundaries, equitable communication, and reciprocity when it comes to meeting one anothers needs is overlooked, ignored, or outright rejected by your partner, than yes.


OK. So if I get this right, the man who becomes the alpha would establish healthy boundaries, insist on equitable communication and insist on reciprocity with regards to meeting both partners' needs before ending his marriage to his ungiving, immature (and probably disrepectful also) wife. May I ask exactly what is meant by "equitable communication" ?


----------



## Deejo

Ten_year_hubby said:


> May I ask exactly what is meant by "equitable communication" ?


Communication is based upon the concept of exchange. If your partners method of communication revolves around screaming, disrespect, shaming, shutting down, or ignorance ... than it most certainly isn't 'equitable'.

Both parties contribute to the exchange, and even in terms of disagreement or anger, follow the groundrules. The easiest guideline there is 'the golden rule'. Treat me as you want or expect to be treated.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> *Treat me as you want or expect to be treated.*


:iagree: x 100%
Works best for us, _everytime._

The basic rule is ," Don't treat me like shyt and expect me to treat you like an entitled princess.."

Treat me like your king and I will treat you like my queen.

It also works vice versa.


----------



## AFEH

Ten_year_hubby said:


> So we would expect the result of a man becoming the alpha to be his ending an unsatisfying marriage to an immature spouse? No value judgement intended here, I'm just trying to understand.


You don't need to be a so called alpha to end your marriage with your wife.


If she is abusing you in one way or another even though you've asserted some healthy boundaries, then what you do need to be is some kind of fool for love to stay with her.


And/or to have some kind of dependency upon her, financial or whatever. that you want to keep hold of and hence wont leave her.

Either way, if a man is with a woman who abuses him then it's his fault because he stays with her, for whatever reason. And that reason will be selfish, sometimes very selfish. He stays for what he gets out of the relationship.



On the other hand if a man is with a wife who is somehow mentally ill, maybe with BPD, dementia, Alzheimer's etc. no amount of alphering, betaring, omegaring or whatever *ing is going to change the fact that his wife is ill. Then that man's dilemma is a moral one, a decision for his conscience.



In what way TYH is your wife immature? Mine would at times behave like a seven year old. But she only ever did it with me.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Deejo said:


> Communication is based upon the concept of exchange. If your partners method of communication revolves around screaming, disrespect, shaming, shutting down, or ignorance ... than it most certainly isn't 'equitable'.
> 
> Both parties contribute to the exchange, and even in terms of disagreement or anger, follow the groundrules. The easiest guideline there is 'the golden rule'. Treat me as you want or expect to be treated.


Got it. Excellent. How about a partner that talks nonstop about themselves and their activities and their judgements and their health and their ..., almost to the exclusion of anything else. Would that be considered equitable communication for the purposes of this discussion?


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

AFEH said:


> In what way TYH is your wife immature? Mine would at times behave like a seven year old. But she only ever did it with me.


Refuses to accept the consequences of her choices, doesn't own her feelings, not able to apologize, refuses to fight fairly, lack of self control, doesn't follow through on commitments, ... a bunch of fairly standard stuff.

In their book Boundaries in Marriage, Drs Cloud and Townsend give a nice list of what they consider mature/immature character traits. That's what I use for my standard.

We have to understand that marriage is an intimate relationship and intimate relationships are different than relationships with friends and co-workers and we can often see very different behaviors


----------



## AFEH

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Got it. Excellent. How about a partner that talks nonstop about themselves and their activities and their judgements and their health and their ..., almost to the exclusion of anything else. Would that be considered equitable communication for the purposes of this discussion?


Sounds like borderline personality disorder. My younger sister has it. I call her to see how she's doing after I've prepared myself for a totally one sided conversation. Sometimes she's "good", a lot depends on her medication.


Could also be a milder form of narcissism, when they're "in the mood" they can talk non stop about themselves for hours.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

AFEH said:


> If she is abusing you in one way or another even though you've asserted some healthy boundaries, then what you do need to be is some kind of fool for love to stay with her.
> 
> And/or to have some kind of dependency upon her, financial or whatever. that you want to keep hold of and hence wont leave her.
> 
> Either way, if a man is with a woman who abuses him then it's his fault because he stays with her, for whatever reason. And that reason will be selfish, sometimes very selfish. He stays for what he gets out of the relationship.
> 
> On the other hand if a man is with a wife who is somehow mentally ill, maybe with BPD, dementia, Alzheimer's etc. no amount of alphering, betaring, omegaring or whatever *ing is going to change the fact that his wife is ill. Then that man's dilemma is a moral one, a decision for his conscience.


AFEH,

Lots of people are innocent victims of their parents (and their parents before them) choices. Alcoholism, passive disengagement, unfiltered anger, dishonesty, selfishness, irresponsibility, all these things can send a child into adulthood with a lot more problems than the people who never experienced this kind of behavior in the childhood homes.

Real people have real problems in the real world and many of us are in search of something to help us. I'm learning about all this alpha stuff to see how it might apply to my life and the lives of my friends and associates.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

AFEH said:


> Sounds like borderline personality disorder. My younger sister has it. I call her to see how she's doing after I've prepared myself for a totally one sided conversation. Sometimes she's "good", a lot depends on her medication.
> 
> 
> Could also be a milder form of narcissism, when they're "in the mood" they can talk non stop about themselves for hours.


Yeah, I'm not big on lay diagnosis. Her dad was a raging alcoholic, mhrip, and her mom presents some serious np traits. The kid is a mess but she's really good looking and she gave me some beautiful kids.


----------



## Shoto1984

I'm waaaaaaay late to this thread but I had to add something. If you want to up your Alpha I've got two words for you... Tyler Durden.


----------



## AFEH

Ten_year_hubby said:


> AFEH,
> 
> *Lots of people are innocent victims of their parents (and their parents before them) choices.* Alcoholism, passive disengagement, unfiltered anger, dishonesty, selfishness, irresponsibility, all these things can send a child into adulthood with a lot more problems than the people who never experienced this kind of behavior in the childhood homes.
> 
> Real people have real problems in the real world and many of us are in search of something to help us. I'm learning about all this alpha stuff to see how it might apply to my life and the lives of my friends and associates.


The people who've had a bad childhood but grow up "good" are the ones who tell themselves "The buck stops right here".



We can all blame something or someone for our dysfunctional behaviour. But what's the point in that?

Accepting personal responsibility for who we are right now is surely the way to be.


If I were you I'd stop making excuses for your wife. Until you do and until you have boundaries of intolerance she is exceedingly unlikely to change.


----------



## AFEH

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Yeah, I'm not big on lay diagnosis. Her dad was a raging alcoholic, mhrip, and her mom presents some serious np traits. The kid is a mess but *she's really good looking* and she gave me some beautiful kids.


With respect TYH, that really does sound shallow and for me at least is no reason to stay with a woman.


You might want to look into that. Maybe you are putting such a high premium on your wife's looks you're accepting her crappy behaviour.


----------



## trex

Caribbean Man said:


> Treat me like your king and I will treat you like my queen.


That's a great way to put it!


----------



## Caribbean Man

AFEH said:


> *The people who've had a bad childhood but grow up "good" are the ones who tell themselves "The buck stops right here".*
> 
> 
> 
> We can all blame something or someone for our dysfunctional behaviour. But what's the point in that?
> 
> Accepting personal responsibility for who we are right now is surely the way to be.
> 
> 
> If I were you I'd stop making excuses for your wife. Until you do and until you have boundaries of intolerance she is exceedingly unlikely to change.


:iagree:

Every man / woman is responsible for what the make of themselves, no matter their history, or what fate handed down to them
Some may have disadvantages, but the will to succeed does it.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

AFEH said:


> Accepting personal responsibility for who we are right now is surely the way to be.
> 
> 
> If I were you I'd stop making excuses for your wife. Until you do and until you have boundaries of intolerance she is exceedingly unlikely to change.


Easier said than done. There is a big difference between making excuses for someone and seeking to understand them. We can always effect change by changing ourselves.

In my humble opinion, the ever present influences of our greater culture are a much bigger problem than my actions or lack thereof. My wife can look outside to her friends and family and the culture at large and feel justified and supported in being immature and disrespectful (especially to men) and nongiving in her marriage. I see this as the far bigger influence on women's perceptions that withholding themselves physically in their marriages is OK and men should just deal with it and I see this as a huge part of all the problems that men are facing in this forum. And I would be hard pressed to find any woman that is not influenced by that.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

AFEH said:


> With respect TYH, that really does sound shallow and for me at least is no reason to stay with a woman.
> 
> 
> You might want to look into that. Maybe you are putting such a high premium on your wife's looks you're accepting her crappy behaviour.


Thanks AFEH, but it's me here in my life and it's good enough for me right now and I'm really not looking for any advice with regards to my leaving. We will fix things in place or she will leave, her choice. Sorry if that sounds shallow, maybe it is but that where I am with it.

The biggest reason I accept my wife's crappy behavior is because it really doesn't bother me that much. I hate to be politically incorrect, but she's a girl and I'm the man here and who cares what she does? That doesn't mean I'm not looking to improve my lot but ultimately my ship is under sail and on course and she can fish or cut bait or jump overboard, her choice.

I have my marching orders and my ideas on things and I help other men along with their helping me deal with the problems we all face in our marriages. To the extent that this alpha thing looks like a good idea and may have some positive benefit, I'm interested and I want to learn more about it. If I'm going to work it into my repertoire, I just need to understand some of the fine points.


----------



## AFEH

Ten_year_hubby, so you have problems but you don't really have problems and the problems you don't really have don't concern you anyway. Your wife can take it or leave it or leave it or take it because you don't care anyway.



Your wife is displaying all sorts of childish and unreasonable behaviour of enough gravity to get you off your ass and post and talk about it on a marriage forum. Yet you don't care because your a man and she's a woman.


Seems to me you aren't fooling anyone but yourself.


----------



## Halien

Ten_year_hubby said:


> So we would expect the result of a man becoming the alpha to be his ending an unsatisfying marriage to an immature spouse? No value judgement intended here, I'm just trying to understand.


It would be easy to let this discussion glide through with a black or white view of relationships, but with your relationship, is it truly black or white? Is it fair to summarize your wife's problems as unfixable, with your only options to be to either leave her or accept her as is? There are no small improvements that she would be willing to entertain that would put her one step closer to maturity?

I'm not trying to discount the issues you face. Because my wife struggles with bipolar depressive cycles, I went through a very serious re-analysis of our relationship, and even of myself and my expectations. We all have areas of strengths and weaknesses, where as a couple we can hopefully complement each other so that we find mutual happiness. Part of this whole growth discussion is also learning to be stubbornly determined in finding solutions, where you are so focused on finding a a mutually acceptable solution that the idea of failure, and divorce is not even in your vocabulary, to a degree. It goes right along with having firm boundaries. You can't talk about being alpha with firm boundaries without including the trait of being a solutions-driven person, who will even talk about improvements in terms of incremental growth, and intent. You talk about your own responsibility, and ask her to take a similar step in that direction. In a sense, if the failure to respect basic expectations of a happy marriage leads to divorce, it is because she decided to quit trying. For me, my wife felt that it was hopeless for her to overcome some of the tendencies that she admitted to being hurtful. To her, I was the strong one, and she felt lost. Part of our healing through this tough time was in re-affirming our intention to meet each other's needs, leveraging each other's strengths, and taking it one step at a time.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

AFEH said:


> Ten_year_hubby, so you have problems but you don't really have problems and the problems you don't really have don't concern you anyway. Your wife can take it or leave it or leave it or take it because you don't care anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Your wife is displaying all sorts of childish and unreasonable behaviour of enough gravity to get you off your ass and post and talk about it on a marriage forum. Yet you don't care because your a man and she's a woman.
> 
> 
> Seems to me you aren't fooling anyone but yourself.


Could be. Maybe we are all just fooling ourselves especially when we think our behavior has some real impact on our wives drive or attitude toward affection. Maybe all this is due to factors completely out of our control. I can say I definitely have problems but they aren't of a magnitude that can sink me so I'm not concerned about drowning because I don't let her have that kind of power over me. Sure, I would like to have a better life and sure I care but I don't care enough to follow my wife if she jumps into a black hole.

There was a popular joke when I was younger (probably still popular now) that goes "How can you tell when a woman has an orgasm?". The correct answer is "Who cares?". Sure I would like my wife to enjoy intimacy but ultimately her not liking it is her problem and that absolutely does not mean we are not going to do it. And as often as I need to keep feeling good about her. If she doesn't like her situation, she can help herself out, reach out for help or go suck eggs. Would I like to bring her on board to have a satisfying physical relationship? Sure I would, but my manhood is not at stake here. Nor is my desire. When a woman rages angrily at a man, he doesn't have to fear for his life. It's unpleasant and it's destructive but it's not life threatening.

My wife's childish and unreasonable behavior is textbook ACOA. Compulsive behavior, anger, never knowing how to act. I had no idea about any of this when I married her. So now that I know, do I throw her away? Seems a little harsh and I really don't want to explain that to my kids when they grow up. So I cope. A lot of guys I talk to have similar problems. I think I can help them and they certainly help me. If all this alpha stuff actually helps someone, I'm all for it.


----------



## AFEH

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Could be. Maybe we are all just fooling ourselves especially when we think our behavior has some real impact on our wives drive or attitude toward affection. Maybe all this is due to factors completely out of our control. I can say I definitely have problems but they aren't of a magnitude that can sink me so I'm not concerned about drowning because I don't let her have that kind of power over me. Sure, I would like to have a better life and sure I care but I don't care enough to follow my wife if she jumps into a black hole.
> 
> There was a popular joke when I was younger (probably still popular now) that goes "How can you tell when a woman has an orgasm?". The correct answer is "Who cares?". Sure I would like my wife to enjoy intimacy but ultimately her not liking it is her problem and that absolutely does not mean we are not going to do it. And as often as I need to keep feeling good about her. If she doesn't like her situation, she can help herself out, reach out for help or go suck eggs. Would I like to bring her on board to have a satisfying physical relationship? Sure I would, but my manhood is not at stake here. Nor is my desire. When a woman rages angrily at a man, he doesn't have to fear for his life. It's unpleasant and it's destructive but it's not life threatening.
> 
> My wife's childish and unreasonable behavior is textbook ACOA. Compulsive behavior, anger, never knowing how to act. I had no idea about any of this when I married her. So now that I know, do I throw her away? Seems a little harsh and I really don't want to explain that to my kids when they grow up. So I cope. A lot of guys I talk to have similar problems. I think I can help them and they certainly help me. If all this alpha stuff actually helps someone, I'm all for it.


Sounds to me like you are teaching your children to “live with crazy”. So you too will be passing the legacy down the line. That’s how they learn. Parrot fashion from their parents. It’s how your wife learned.


Another man would tell himself “It stops right here and right now”. Instead you adopt, adapt and evolve to live with it all. You slowly but surely erode your boundaries through being ever more patient and ever more tolerant. Such that your children too will be joining places like TAM instead of knowing how to have a healthy marriage.


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## Ten_year_hubby

AFEH said:


> Sounds to me like you are teaching your children to “live with crazy”. So you too will be passing the legacy down the line. That’s how they learn. Parrot fashion from their parents. It’s how your wife learned.
> 
> 
> Another man would tell himself “It stops right here and right now”. Instead you adopt, adapt and evolve to live with it all. You slowly but surely erode your boundaries through being ever more patient and ever more tolerant. Such that your children too will be joining places like TAM instead of knowing how to have a healthy marriage.


I can certainly see why you would think this way but I prefer to predict a more positive future for me and my family. I see myself teaching my kids honor, respect, love, compassion, honesty, strength, forgiveness and tolerance. And that doesn't include the many good things they learn from their mom notwithstanding her bad behavior.

In my humble opinion, it is a negative presumption that living in my situation involves an erosion of boundaries rather than a firming of them. Glass half full, glass half empty, we see the same thing differently. 

The big difference here and the reason I am not passing down the legacy is plain and simple, the immense positive influence of a concerned and involved father who participates daily in everyone's life, affirming them and supporting them and enabling them for the future. It's my wife's past versus my present and future and I win this one hands down. The presence of a strong and resolute father so overwhelms all these other influences that it's not even a contest. The battle is for the man's heart. After we win that one, everyone else comes along for the ride. Neurotic women and their neurotic parents and their misbehavior and their misguided, misled friends may seem scary especially when they all gang up on you, but I assure you they all fall over in a big puff of wind because they have no foundation.

All said, as much as I love talking about myself, I'm still interested in this whole alpha thing and how it might help me and other men I know deal with the various situations that come up in our lives. I'm hoping we have a better solution than divorce to deal with dysfunctional women because I'm just not going to go around counseling men to get divorced because their wives have serious immaturities


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## Deejo

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Got it. Excellent. How about a partner that talks nonstop about themselves and their activities and their judgements and their health and their ..., almost to the exclusion of anything else. Would that be considered equitable communication for the purposes of this discussion?


Context is everything.

If ... underneath her inability to frame a conversation outside of the context of herself, you KNOW that she loves you, then yes.

If every conversation is simply a mental and verbal tug of war or an exercise for her to shift emphasis to herself or responsibility away from herself, then to put it quite plainly as my dear dad used to say ... "you're shoveling sh!t against the tide."

At that point, the 'value' you offer to your partner is your willingness to be their emotional punching bag.

No individual looking to display 'alpha' traits, or more simply, healthy boundaries and self respect would condone or enable that kind of behavior, and to be clear, I'm not suggesting this is your circumstance.

You know whether or not this is the case. We really don't have enough information


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## AFEH

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I'm hoping we have a better solution than divorce to deal with dysfunctional women because I'm just not going to go around counseling men to get divorced because their wives have serious immaturities


Nobody here advocates divorce in the way that you say it above. That would be abandonment. Believe me men like me spend years trying before we come to believe that the marriage cannot be saved. Years trying just like you to understand where our wife's dysfunctional behaviour comes from. You do some of the men here a serious disservice.




That solution that you search for is called Healthy Boundaries. Healthy Boundaries are found in books like Hold on to Your NUTs: The Relationship Manual for Men: Wayne M. Levine: 9780979054402: Amazon.com: Books.

You can spend your lifetime trying to understand the reasons/causes of your wife’s dysfunctional (and abusive?) behaviour. But that wont change a thing.

For your wife to change, her change must come of her own accord, her own motivation and volition, wish.


But she’s never going to do that, to change while her life is working for her, while she gets what she wants out of it. By your own words seemingly she can treat you however she wants or wishes and still she gets what she wants and needs from you. Are you truly that low a hanging fruit?



Why on earth you are looking into this alpha stuff to see if it can help you is way beyond me. A healthy dose of self-respect and self-esteem followed by the enforcement of healthy boundaries is much more likely to effect change in your wife and to get you what you want out of your marriage to her.


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## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> If every conversation is simply a mental and verbal tug of war or an exercise for her to shift emphasis to herself or responsibility away from herself, then to put it quite plainly as my dear dad used to say ... *"you're shoveling sh!t against the tide."*


^^^^^^^^
Well said!


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## Tall Average Guy

AFEH said:


> Nobody here advocates divorce in the way that you say it above. That would be abandonment. Believe me men like me spend years trying before we come to believe that the marriage cannot be saved. Years trying just like you to understand where our wife's dysfunctional behaviour comes from. You do some of the men here a serious disservice.


Let's say the neighbor kids dream is to be a pro basketball player. He loves the game, plays whenever he can, practices al the time, just keeps at it. But he is just not that good. He is a bench warmer and rarely plays.

At some point, his drive is no longer admirable but foolish. His determination in college becomes delusional when he tries out for a walk-on spot at the Kentucky. His dream of being a pro basketball player has overtaken his intelligence and common sense.

I suspect that this is the very danger that many men (and women) face in marriage. The dream and goal of making it work overtakes their intellect. The dogged determination to succeed overrides their intellectual understanding that it is not working and causes them to say "If I just make this one change everything will be better." The difficulty is in knowing when it is time to pull the plug. I am sure it is easier to see from the outside than from the inside.


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## Ten_year_hubby

AFEH said:


> But she’s never going to do that, to change while her life is working for her, while she gets what she wants out of it. By your own words seemingly she can treat you however she wants or wishes and still she gets what she wants and needs from you. Are you truly that low a hanging fruit?


I suppose that's as good a way of looking at it as any. Which words of mine exactly are being paraphrased into your conclusion?


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## Ten_year_hubby

AFEH said:


> Nobody here advocates divorce in the way that you say it above. That would be abandonment. Believe me men like me spend years trying before we come to believe that the marriage cannot be saved. Years trying just like you to understand where our wife's dysfunctional behaviour comes from. You do some of the men here a serious disservice.


I am truly sorry for my actions and I apologize for doing a disservice to anyone here. I also apologize for being so thick and just not getting it. Please, may I ask if you can you help me understand what exactly is the difference between what I said and what is being advocated? I like the men here and I think you have something valuable to say but I'm not sure that I really quite get all the details yet.


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## AFEH

Tall Average Guy said:


> Let's say the neighbor kids dream is to be a pro basketball player. He loves the game, plays whenever he can, practices al the time, just keeps at it. But he is just not that good. He is a bench warmer and rarely plays.
> 
> At some point, his drive is no longer admirable but foolish. His determination in college becomes delusional when he tries out for a walk-on spot at the Kentucky. His dream of being a pro basketball player has overtaken his intelligence and common sense.
> 
> I suspect that this is the very danger that many men (and women) face in marriage. The dream and goal of making it work overtakes their intellect. The dogged determination to succeed overrides their intellectual understanding that it is not working and causes them to say "If I just make this one change everything will be better." The difficulty is in knowing when it is time to pull the plug. I am sure it is easier to see from the outside than from the inside.


Absolutely.

It’s like slavishly following and adhering to values and beliefs, dreams that are no longer “workable”. It’s a devotion and loyalty to something that was, something that existed in times gone by (even if only in our imagination) but has no validity in the present.


But thinking about it, it’s actually worse than your example. A good marriage is in some ways analogous to a game of tennis. In that a husband can hone and polish his serve, his baseline and net game but what’s the point if the ball never comes back over the net from his wife? What’s the point if his wife isn’t working on her game?

What sort of man is it that keeps hitting the ball over the net to his wife, yet has to go round the net, up to the other end of the court, pick the balls up, return to his end of the court before he gets to hit the balls over again? Surely that man is a fool. I sure was.


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## AFEH

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I am truly sorry for my actions and I apologize for doing a disservice to anyone here. I also apologize for being so thick and just not getting it. Please, may I ask if you can you help me understand what exactly is the difference between what I said and what is being advocated? I like the men here and I think you have something valuable to say but I'm not sure that I really quite get all the details yet.


What are the problems in your marriage that you want to solve? It'll help if you list them one by one ....


Problem 01

Problem 02

etc.



Because if you don't have any real problems you want resolved, the whole thing, in fact everything here in the Men's Clubhouse is just academic for you. And as such you ain't ever going to "get it."


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## Saki

Ten_year_hubby said:


> In my humble opinion, it is a negative presumption that living in my situation involves an erosion of boundaries rather than a firming of them. Glass half full, glass half empty, we see the same thing differently.


Um, boundries are not a matter of perception.

That is what makes them boundries. 

If your boundries leave room for interpretation, you aren't doing it right.

Regarding recommendation for divorce, you really have only 2 choices. 1) Accept your wife as she is, or 2) divorce. 

If you are unable to accept her as she is, recognize what you can control versus what you cannot control, than it's time to move on.

When a person crosses from #1 to #2, is entirely up to that individual.


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## AFEH

Saki said:


> Um, boundries are not a matter of perception.
> 
> That is what makes them boundries.
> 
> If your boundries leave room for interpretation, you aren't doing it right.
> 
> Regarding recommendation for divorce, you really have only 2 choices. 1) Accept your wife as she is, or 2) divorce.
> 
> If you are unable to accept her as she is, recognize what you can control versus what you cannot control, than it's time to move on.
> 
> When a person crosses from #1 to #2, is entirely up to that individual.


I’d add that the very first thing for a husband to do is to see if his wife wants to actively participate in the improvement of her marriage to him.


If she does then all well and good.


But if she doesn’t then he has to take the view that what he sees now is what he’ll always get. Well, it’s actually worse than that because if a couple aren’t working on their marriage together then it’s guaranteed that it will get a whole lot worse as the years go by.


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## Ten_year_hubby

AFEH said:


> What sort of man is it that keeps hitting the ball over the net to his wife, yet has to go round the net, up to the other end of the court, pick the balls up, return to his end of the court before he gets to hit the balls over again? Surely that man is a fool. I sure was.


Busted. AFEH you have completely got my gig. My wife and I go out with a big basket of balls and I feed them one by one over the net to her and she runs around and tries and tries but few or none of them come back. Then I go over on her side of the court and pick up all the balls into the basket. At this point she goes to the other side rather than me going back and we do exactly the same thing again and again.

I think you are right, I am completely fooling myself because I don't have any problem with this at all. In fact, I really like it and I'm always after her to go out with me. Different strokes for different folks.


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## Ten_year_hubby

Saki said:


> Um, boundries are not a matter of perception.
> 
> That is what makes them boundries.
> 
> If your boundries leave room for interpretation, you aren't doing it right.
> 
> Regarding recommendation for divorce, you really have only 2 choices. 1) Accept your wife as she is, or 2) divorce.
> 
> If you are unable to accept her as she is, recognize what you can control versus what you cannot control, than it's time to move on.
> 
> When a person crosses from #1 to #2, is entirely up to that individual.


I'm sorry Saki, I had meant to say that the prediction and judgement that living in my situation will result in the future erosion of my boundaries rather than a future respect for them is a matter of perception based on assumptions and conclusions drawn on assumptions. It's basically a question of whether we see things getting better or getting worse in the future.


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## Ten_year_hubby

AFEH said:


> What are the problems in your marriage that you want to solve? It'll help if you list them one by one ....
> 
> 
> Problem 01
> 
> Problem 02
> 
> etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Because if you don't have any real problems you want resolved, the whole thing, in fact everything here in the Men's Clubhouse is just academic for you. And as such you ain't ever going to "get it."


Thanks AFEH, you are completely correct. I am not going to get it. Too vague, too confusing, too much ego waving, too much adversarial conversation and a little bit too slanted toward divorce for me. But thanks for you help anyway. I just wanted to check out what all the buzz is about and I've pretty much seen it. Thanks again


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## AFEH

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Thanks AFEH, you are completely correct. I am not going to get it. Too vague, too confusing, too much ego waving, too much adversarial conversation and a little bit too slanted toward divorce for me. But thanks for you help anyway. I just wanted to check out what all the buzz is about and I've pretty much seen it. Thanks again


You obviously don’t have a problem enough to put yourself out and solve. In essence for you it’s very much an academic exercise. Believe me, for others it isn’t. It’s very real.


So of course you were never going to find anything meaningful in the words written here, you were never going to "get it" and were absolutely always going to be critical of what goes on. Even though you did so in a very passive way.


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## Saki

So people are receptive to criticism.

Some people are open to change.

Some people desire to improve.

Some people are ok with not being right all the time.

Some people aren't.

If a person is really, truly, deep down in their heart and soul, happy than that is awesome. Congratulations to those people, you have something figured out that I don't (but I'll keep trying to get there!!).

I worry about how in touch some people are with themselves though.


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## Adex

Maintaining the alphaness needs constant reminders.


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