# Oral Sex Therapy



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

So, I am reading a Dr. Schnarch "Intimacy & Desire" that addresses specifically how to solve problems in a long term marriage that has a HD/LD mismatch. 300+ pages in and I am getting to the part where he suggests using reciprocal oral sex as one of the primary ways to awaken passion in the relationship. 

Admittedly this may not make much sense out of context with the rest of his work leading up to this chapter... but let me skip ahead and share. 

His ideas get into the notion of couples where the males has always made the woman come first are actually selfish on behalf of the male. The female should be allowed to make her husband come first and then get to be the one taken care of next if she wants and she should be able to enjoy doing so. Since oral allows one person at a time to focus on the other, this allows for more variety and dynamics than just traditional intercourse. When done mindfully this also becomes a tool for solving problems related to sexual desire because changing things up can reveal a discomfort that needs to be addressed. 

The book suggests that men that prefer intercourse over receiving oral may actually be selfish (in context with using oral to solve desire problems).

It suggests that people that have problems with the smell or taste of oral should learn how to overcome that discomfort. (that smell and taste contains pheromones that rewire the brain to enjoy sex) 

It suggests that people giving oral should enjoy that just as much as the person receiving and that the person receiving should actively acknowledge that. (receiving can be more difficult than giving)

It suggests that bad oral sex on behalf of the giver or receiver may be a sexual weapon to somehow inflict pain on a spouse (as in I am not going to let you enjoy this or I am not going to let you know that you can please me).

I have to admit that this is interesting if you ask me! Absolutely a great book! Anyone agree or disagree? 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I agree with me and my sexuality. But not everyone likes oral, giving or receiving and this book assumes everyone should... it doesn’t work that way.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> I agree with me and my sexuality. But not everyone likes oral, giving or receiving and this book assumes everyone should... it doesn’t work that way.


Yes, my wife would absolutely hate this book.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

I would think if you had an LD partner who was open to performing oral as a way to improve things, then likely there wouldn't be a problem in the first place. In a lot of the cases the LD person is resistant or apathetic to trying to fix the problem. I'm not sure how you would get such a person to engage in oral if they aren't into sex already. From a theoretical standpoint it might help, but in real life I can't see it really happening.


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

I haven't read the book, but I would disagree that the male is selfish to make sure the woman is taken care of first. I consider myself to be a very generous lover, but after my own orgasm there just isn't anything left in the tank until I've recovered for a bit(snuggling and afterglow yes, but going down on my wife will have to wait for a few minutes). In fact I think it's very unselfish of the man to make sure his wife/gf has been well taken care of first. I'd be curious to hear from women on this. Maybe Schnarch is suggesting it's a female empowerment thing? Doesn't really make sense to me.

Also why does oral have to be one at a time? Has Schnarch never hear of 69


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

There are a whole lot "should"s in there. One size fits all I guess.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I've also thought that always having the woman O first was a bit selfish. Most men, but also many women want to relax after an O. A mix seems fairest.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

I don't agree, the intensity increases after the wife has the moment, it relaxs her to the point of enjoyment and her focus is never on herself but on us as a couple. So l disagree and those whom write books suchas these are mostly, theory and lack of practice. Now if maybe a pornstar wrote a book such as this lt may tend to be more realistic in the sense of. Interaction and dynamics of partners.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I can see the point he is trying to make about her having the O first, and then having to work for the guy. Depending on what is required to get the guy off, it can be a buzz kill. Imagine if your O was really just a signal that it was time to go to work and you cannot just enjoy it.

I think that ideally there would be times of both finishing last. The key is that everyone that wants an O gets one, not the order in which it happens.

As Tex says above, his tank is empty when he is done. What if hers is too? Isn't being unselfish continuing to go on when your tank is empty?


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

If its selfish to let me go first and then initiate PIV then I guess I’m ok with selfish as I prefer it this way. It creates great little aftershocks that are very pleasurable for me. They make PIV way better. 

One size does not fit all it seems.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I always thought that giving a woman an orgasm first was encouraged because once a man cums, his energy is zapped and his interest level drops?

Is this generally true, or no?



badsanta said:


> His ideas get into the notion of couples where the males has always made the woman come first are actually selfish on behalf of the male. The female should be allowed to make her husband come first and then get to be the one taken care of next if she wants and she should be able to enjoy doing so.


I completely agree with this.



> Since oral allows one person at a time to focus on the other, this allows for more variety and dynamics than just traditional intercourse.


Well, one needs to mindfully respect that each person has preferences. Not all discomfort should be deconstructed. We live in this time of information overload where almost everyone feels entitled to explanations. 

IMO, the time to test the foundation (of sexual compatibility) is prior to even touching each other. You talk about it. A lot.



> When done mindfully this also becomes a tool for solving problems related to sexual desire because changing things up can reveal a discomfort that needs to be addressed.


Do men prefer PIV to oral?

Speaking as a woman, giving oral is my number one favorite sexual act. Having said that, it satisfies many of my negative attributes - desire to control, inability to connect, etc. 



> The book suggests that men that prefer intercourse over receiving oral may actually be selfish (in context with using oral to solve desire problems).


Again, this should be discussed way early on. 'Should learn how to overcome' is somewhat unreasonable. 



> It suggests that people that have problems with the smell or taste of oral should learn how to overcome that discomfort. (that smell and taste contains pheromones that rewire the brain to enjoy sex)


I enjoy giving much, much more than receiving. Receiving is about surrendering, and I don't do that very well.



> It suggests that people giving oral should enjoy that just as much as the person receiving and that the person receiving should actively acknowledge that. (receiving can be more difficult than giving)


Bad sex and/or no sex in general communicates a lack of empathy and caring - and I'd even say respect.



> It suggests that bad oral sex on behalf of the giver or receiver may be a sexual weapon to somehow inflict pain on a spouse (as in I am not going to let you enjoy this or I am not going to let you know that you can please me).


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*The authors presuppositions in that book sound like a bunch of hooey!*


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

This raises a big questions that should be answered before you can really think about his advice. Does the LD partner like oral? Do they like giving or receiving or both?

My guess is many LD partners want nothing to do with it. In such a case, its doubtful that oral sex will help fix the mismatch in desire.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

When my wife was able to cum from PiV the gold standard was the simul-cum. She encouraged me to just cum when ever I was there, because 90% of the time that would send her over the edge too. I had a hard adjusting to that change and the fact that sometimes she didn't want an O. For a while we had a he cums first policy, that way if she didn't want one it wouldn't "ruin" it for me. I've gotten over that. Now it's whatever happens just happens.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

badsanta said:


> The book suggests that men that prefer intercourse over receiving oral may actually be selfish (in context with using oral to solve desire problems).


What does he say about women that prefer intercourse over anything else?


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## Diceplayer (Oct 12, 2019)

Tex X said:


> I haven't read the book, but I would disagree that the male is selfish to make sure the woman is taken care of first. I consider myself to be a very generous lover, but after my own orgasm there just isn't anything left in the tank until I've recovered for a bit(snuggling and afterglow yes, but going down on my wife will have to wait for a few minutes). In fact I think it's very unselfish of the man to make sure his wife/gf has been well taken care of first. I'd be curious to hear from women on this. Maybe Schnarch is suggesting it's a female empowerment thing? Doesn't really make sense to me.
> 
> Also why does oral have to be one at a time? Has Schnarch never hear of 69


I agree with Tex X. Once I have my O I'm done for a while. When my wife is wanting oral, I have found that it is best for us if I just let her lie back and enjoy what I'm doing. I get a lot of pleasure out of seeing and hearing her response so I get a lot out of it too. Also, if I bring her to her O or take her to the point where she pushes me away, then I wait about 20 - 30 seconds and then start again, she is more than likely to O again, even quicker than the first time. I do this about three times and then she just explodes when we have PIV. So where is there any selfishness in that?


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

minimalME said:


> I always thought that giving a woman an orgasm first was encouraged because once a man cums, his energy is zapped and his interest level drops?
> 
> Is this generally true, or no?


Not for me. My **** may not work for a while but I still got my hands and mouth. In my previous post I mentioned 90% of the time me cumming would send her over the edge. The other 10% I'm not going to just leave her there (and TBH she wouldn't put up with that).


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

Tasorundo said:


> As Tex says above, his tank is empty when he is done. What if hers is too? Isn't being unselfish continuing to go on when your tank is empty?


I always make sure my wife is well taken care of before I get mine. She has never once complained about it or communicated that she wants to take care of me first. In fact after she has had several orgasms, it actually enhances her O when we go PIV. I guess everyone is different though, but it works for us. My refractory period isn't that long either, so I'm ready to go again in as little as 10 to 15 minutes.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

As for who should O first I think it depends. If your the type of person who is done after an O then I can see how the author would consider this selfish because once you get yours your too tired to give. 

I wouldn’t mind if my boyfriend Os first If he was enthusiastic about giving oral to me after until I cum. 

Personally I’m exhausted after I orgasm.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Tex X said:


> I haven't read the book, but I would disagree that the male is selfish to make sure the woman is taken care of first. I consider myself to be a very generous lover, but after my own orgasm there just isn't anything left in the tank until I've recovered for a bit(snuggling and afterglow yes, but going down on my wife will have to wait for a few minutes). In fact I think it's very unselfish of the man to make sure his wife/gf has been well taken care of first. I'd be curious to hear from women on this. Maybe Schnarch is suggesting it's a female empowerment thing? Doesn't really make sense to me.


I think Schnarch is trying to say that perhaps females feel the same way (sometimes). After she has had hers then maybe she doesn't have anything left to give. Perhaps she might enjoy allowing her man to go first and then take her time afterwards knowing she just can enjoy herself. 

Admitting you have nothing left to give after you get yours, I think Schnarch is making it a point to say oral does NOT have that limitation.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> I wouldn’t mind if my boyfriend Os first If he was enthusiastic about giving oral to me after until I cum.
> 
> Personally I’m exhausted after I orgasm.


And there it is! 

In Schnarch's opinion all women should at least be given this as an option to explore.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Tex X said:


> I always make sure my wife is well taken care of before I get mine. She has never once complained about it or communicated that she wants to take care of me first. In fact after she has had several orgasms, it actually enhances her O when we go PIV. I guess everyone is different though, but it works for us. My refractory period isn't that long either, so I'm ready to go again in as little as 10 to 15 minutes.


I am not saying you are selfish or that you don't please your wife. I used your quote as an example of how most people are after they O. They don't want to do more stuff, so if you always give your wife an O, then she has to please you, it is selfish.

I think there is a difference between giving her an O then having sex, vs giving her an O then she needs to service you. The first is fine I think, and the 2nd isn't. There are too many variables to really cover what happens in every bedroom. If it is the 2nd, then that is selfish.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> Tex X said:
> 
> 
> > I always make sure my wife is well taken care of before I get mine. She has never once complained about it or communicated that she wants to take care of me first. In fact after she has had several orgasms, it actually enhances her O when we go PIV. I guess everyone is different though, but it works for us. My refractory period isn't that long either, so I'm ready to go again in as little as 10 to 15 minutes.
> ...


I had to read that a few times to understand, and I imagine that many men can't tell the difference between the 1st and 2nd examples to which you refer. Add to that the fact that many men have sensitive egos and need "encouragement" in order to climax and it starts to paint a rather interesting picture.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

leftfield said:


> What does he say about women that prefer intercourse over anything else?


I'm still reading, but the emphasis on oral is that it breaks down sexuality into four areas of focus:

1) *Husband enjoying giving* oral to his wife
2) *Wife enjoying receiving* oral from her husband
3) *Wife enjoying giving* oral to her husband
4) *Husband enjoying receiving* oral from his wife

When isolated all four of those aspects of sexuality should be equally as enjoyable for everyone involved. By avoiding oral a spouse can effectively hide one of these areas of sexuality that is problematic. So a wife that prefers intercourse may want to avoid problems in 1), 2), 3) and/or 4) that have become too emotionally difficult to address in the marriage. By avoiding these problems she is being selfish because her husband can't be aware of the respective problem and help her solve it. Or he may be aware of the problem and downright refuse to work on it. 

1), 2), 3), & 4) are all aspects of just giving and receiving pleasure. Oral sex only happens to be a useful tool to discover where the problem is that is not limited by the ability of the husband to maintain an erection. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Why oral? And theoretically can’t you apply these concepts to any sexual act? Like anal, handjobs/fingering etc. why did this author decide everyone must love oral and if they don’t there is something wrong with them.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

NOTE TO SELF: I am a female human being "of a certain age." I like sex and can O relatively easily (I think). And I somewhat agree with Schnarch that if I felt like I "had to" O first and then he'd get his, I would think of that as kind of selfish on the guy's part. Here's why:

When I O it takes considerable mental focus and physical energy. Afterward, I like to recover a moment. It's my suspicion that guys are this way too--it takes mental and physical focus, and a little time afterward to catch the breath. But if I "have to" O first, then I don't ever get to relax and enjoy it or catch my breath. I would feel pressured to O...then the moment I'm energetically empty, I'd feel pressured to do a bunch of energetic work. 

On the other hand, if it is the same for guys, I would suspect if they "had to" O first and they felt energetically "done"...why then they would feel the same way if they had to do me! 

Thus I think the solution does not necessarily have to be oral sex. I think variety is the solution. Sometimes just me. Sometimes just him. Sometimes me first. Sometimes him first. Sometimes oral followed by PIV. Sometimes PIV followed by oral. Sometimes just oral by both of us! And the whole, big, over-arching theme of all that variety is focusing on giving your partner PLEASURE, rather than focusing on pressure, expectations, or your own self. If both put the focus on sharing pleasure, then I think both can be happily satisfied.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

If we make it more generic:



badsanta said:


> 1) *HD enjoying giving* oral to LD
> 2) *LD enjoying receiving* oral from HD
> 3) *LD enjoying giving* oral to HD
> 4) *HD enjoying receiving* oral from LD


The problem typically is that #2 and #3 are not very common. The LD person typically neither enjoys giving nor receiving oral. Typically, they have little or no interest in anything sexual at all. It would have to be a specific kind of HD/LD mismatch where the kind of oral dynamic recommended in the book would work. I can't imagine it would be an effective tactic for many of the HD/LD situations people post on TAM. In many of the threads, the LD person doesn't seem interested in sex or in solutions for how to enjoy sex more.

It's like if your kid didn't like broccoli and a book said that if they eat more brussel spouts, then they'll like broccoli more. All the problems you have getting your kid to eat broccoli are going to be the same problems you have trying to get them to eat brussel sprouts. Even if it's true, the implementation doesn't seem feasible.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> Why oral? And theoretically can’t you apply these concepts to any sexual act? Like anal, handjobs/fingering etc. why did this author decide everyone must love oral and if they don’t there is something wrong with them.


Oral forces one to come face to face with issues of sexual disgust that is likely causing significant problems in a relationship.

There is also the theoretical concept of a strong dose of pheromones (via the smell and taste of one's partner) helping to make sexual connections in the brain that may be underdeveloped.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> Thus I think the solution does not necessarily have to be oral sex. I think variety is the solution. *Sometimes just me. Sometimes just him.* Sometimes me first. Sometimes him first. Sometimes oral followed by PIV. Sometimes PIV followed by oral. Sometimes just oral by both of us! And the whole, big, over-arching theme of all that variety is focusing on giving your partner PLEASURE, rather than focusing on pressure, expectations, or your own self. If both put the focus on sharing pleasure, then I think both can be happily satisfied.


We too are of a certain age. There is way more 68 (I’ll do you now, you’ll get me soon enough) than when younger. 

And yes, it’s the journey, not the destination. I struggled with that for a while.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

wilson said:


> If we make it more generic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> NOTE TO SELF: I am a female human being "of a certain age." I like sex and can O relatively easily (I think). And I somewhat agree with Schnarch that if I felt like I "had to" O first and then he'd get his, I would think of that as kind of selfish on the guy's part. Here's why:
> 
> When I O it takes considerable mental focus and physical energy. Afterward, I like to recover a moment. It's my suspicion that guys are this way too--it takes mental and physical focus, and a little time afterward to catch the breath. But if I "have to" O first, then I don't ever get to relax and enjoy it or catch my breath. I would feel pressured to O...then the moment I'm energetically empty, I'd feel pressured to do a bunch of energetic work.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing! 

I find different perspectives like this perhaps the most valuable aspect of TAM!


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Oral forces one to come face to face with issues of sexual disgust that is likely causing significant problems in a relationship.


What are these “issues of sexual disgust“ of which you speak?



badsanta said:


> There is also the theoretical concept of a strong dose of pheromones (via the smell and taste of one's partner) helping to make sexual connections in the brain that may be underdeveloped.


I can buy that.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

wilson said:


> The problem typically is that #2 and #3 are not very common. *The LD person typically neither enjoys giving nor receiving oral. Typically, they have little or no interest in anything sexual at all.* It would have to be a specific kind of HD/LD mismatch where the kind of oral dynamic recommended in the book would work. I can't imagine it would be an effective tactic for many of the HD/LD situations people post on TAM. In many of the threads, the LD person doesn't seem interested in sex or in solutions for how to enjoy sex more.



*Schnarch argues that exact opposite!!!!!

He says the LD refuses to give or receive pleasure because they know exactly what that feels like when it is good and they can't get it from the HD!*


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

Tasorundo said:


> I am not saying you are selfish or that you don't please your wife. I used your quote as an example of how most people are after they O. They don't want to do more stuff, so if you always give your wife an O, then she has to please you, it is selfish.
> 
> I think there is a difference between giving her an O then having sex, vs giving her an O then she needs to service you. The first is fine I think, and the 2nd isn't. There are too many variables to really cover what happens in every bedroom. If it is the 2nd, then that is selfish.


As I said, after I've given her multiple O's it enhances PIV. So no I don't expect her to service me after I've given hers. I agree that would be a selfish expectation, and yes I fall under the 1st scenario the majority of the time. But if she decides she is not done with me then that's a whole other story

Bottom line is what works for some won't work for others, and vice versa.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CharlieParker said:


> What are these “issues of sexual disgust“ of which you speak?


An example might be women that do not want semen in their mouth. Schnarch also argues that men should be comfortable with this as well if she were to want oral after his own PIV climax.


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> I wouldn’t mind if my boyfriend Os first If he was enthusiastic about giving oral to me after until I cum.


In theory this sounds great, but in practice honestly how many men do you think could/would follow through with this right after their own orgasm. I would put money on it being a very low percentage. Like I said before, it takes me minimally 10-15 minutes before I can perform any additional acts, but once I'm ready I can and regularly do give to my wife with no expectation of an orgasm of my own. I love giving that to my wife and could spend all day doing it.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

badsanta said:


> An example might be women that do not want semen in their mouth. Schnarch also argues that men should be comfortable with this as well if she were to want oral after his own PIV climax.


Both are totally alien in my marriage. But thanks for the book review, I’ll go see The Joker instead 

But seriously, interesting discussion, thanks.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Tex X said:


> In theory this sounds great, but in practice honestly how many men do you think could/would follow through with this right after their own orgasm. I would put money on it being a very low percentage.


Sounds like a great poll to put up on TAM! I am however not sure if doing so violates the rule that fantasies can not be polled.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

badsanta said:


> Sounds like a great poll to put up on TAM! I am however not sure if doing so violates the rule that fantasies can not be polled.


That rule is specific to the Sex in Marriage forum. I think things like that are allowed in places like Ladies Lounge/Men's Clubhouse.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

badsanta said:


> *Schnarch argues that exact opposite!!!!!
> 
> He says the LD refuses to give or receive pleasure because they know exactly what that feels like when it is good and they can't get it from the HD!*


I guess he can argue for it if he likes. It sounds like a theory he made up in his head rather than something that has been verified through real-world experimentation. And that premise seems wrong, anyway. If the LD person would just speak up about what they want different, the HD person would eagerly meet their needs. It doesn't seem realistic that the LD person is yearning for sex, yet they don't say or do anything to make it better. And especially when the HD person says "What I can I do to make it better?" and the LD person responds with "Nothing. I just don't like sex anymore.". If they wanted better oral sex, all they would have to do is make their desires known.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

badsanta said:


> So, I am reading a Dr. Schnarch *"Intimacy & Desire"* that addresses specifically how to solve problems in a long term marriage that has a HD/LD mismatch. 300+ pages in and I am getting to the part where he suggests using reciprocal oral sex as one of the primary ways to awaken passion in the relationship.
> 
> Admittedly this may not make much sense out of context with the rest of his work leading up to this chapter... but let me skip ahead and share.
> 
> ...





badsanta said:


> I think Schnarch is trying to say that perhaps females feel the same way (sometimes). After she has had hers then maybe she doesn't have anything left to give. Perhaps she might enjoy allowing her man to go first and then take her time afterwards knowing she just can enjoy herself.
> 
> Admitting you have nothing left to give after you get yours, I think Schnarch is making it a point to say oral does NOT have that limitation.


A few thoughts. Not only have I read the book, but read it one chapter at a time and discussed each chapter with my wife of 48 years after we both read it. I am the HD and she is the LD. One of the things we have been trying to work on the past decade is her level of sexual desire and our marital happiness. We have worked on it ourselves, with a Sex Therapist, a few marriage counselors, etc.

Like most of Schnarch's books, he feels that it is normal for a couple to have different levels of desire for everything about their lives. Sex is not different than what they need to negotiate on and find a compromise on in having for dinner.

One of the things you didn't discuss is that Schnarch believes that the LD partner always controls the frequency of sex and that the type of sex acts the couple has is always just "leftovers" (read the book to find out what he means.) Those are so true in my marriage.

My understanding of his concepts in building intimacy and sexual desire are to do a variety of sexual exercises together. These include things such as holding each other until calm, kissing with eyes open, orgasming with eyes open and yes oral sex. While he feels that giving your partner oral sex, bathing in their sex pheromones, can help rewire both your brain and that of your partner, it is not the only way to increase intimacy and sexual desire. 

My W can only orgasm if she is rested and can completely clear her mind of all distractions. She keeps a pad of paper and pen next to our bed. That way if she needs to remember something to do the next day or something she needs to get at the store, she can write it down and not try to remember it. We have a ritual prior to sex, where I massage her neck and shoulders and she focuses on relaxing and clearing her mind. Once she is in a zen like state, then we can start foreplay and work toward her orgasm. Sometimes, if she can't clear her mind, she will offer me the gift of her body as she knows how important emotionally sex is to me.

Now what does this have to do with your post. Well I have yet to have oral sex from my wife, even though we talked about it prior to marriage. Prior to marriage it was too intimate for my wife. After marriage it was too gross and vile for her. She would not give nor receive oral sex. After reading, the Schnarch chapter near the end of the book on oral sex as jump starting sexual desire, we discussed oral sex. I told her that after 48 years of marriage, I had given up on that. She told me to not give up quite yet as she might be able to at some point in the future.

*I feel that Schnach's idea about self-soothing is very important to good sex.* I feel that is how my wife has learned how to have orgasms when she wants them. She also feels that way. We do practice the hugging until relaxed as a way of working on her self-soothing. I even do some of the eyes open stuff, but my wife has a very hard time with that.

One of the things about eyes wide open kissing and orgasms is the similarity to post coital bonding. A way to deepen the bonding experience is to look deeply into each others eyes and smile at each other while your brains are bathing in sex hormones. The smiling face looking at you imprints positive emotions in your brain. Depending on technique good oral sex can also involve eye contact. 

From what I have read, his concept of oral sex is about the person receiving oral sex, laying back and focusing on their sexual sensations and allow those sensations to roll over and control their body. It is about becoming the musical instrument of their lover and giving them full access. It is about surrendering physically (and emotionally) and getting in touch with that surrender. It is also about watching, hearing, seeing the joy that your partner is experiencing in giving.

One of the key lessons I feel that Schnarch has provided our marriage is the importance of self-soothing. In one of his earlier books he talks about how gross it is to French kiss and exchange saliva, until you can self sooth sufficiently to make it part of your sexual go-to list. Once you get comfortable with something, it becomes part of you and who you are and how you relate to your partner.

Ah yes, I really have found Schnarch and all of his books to be quite helpful. Small steps and insights.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

wilson said:


> I guess he can argue for it if he likes. It sounds like a theory he made up in his head rather than something that has been *verified through real-world experimentation*. And that premise seems wrong, anyway. *If the LD person would just speak up about what they want* different, the HD person would eagerly meet their needs. It doesn't seem realistic that the LD person is yearning for sex, yet they don't say or do anything to make it better. And especially when the HD person says "What I can I do to make it better?" and the LD person responds with "Nothing. I just don't like sex anymore.". If they wanted better oral sex, all they would have to do is make their desires known.


First Schnarch has a fairly large practice and following among marriage counselors. His approach is highly unconventional or at least it was until he publicized his approach. He does use lots of questionnaires among patients. His first book "The Passionate Marriage" is filled with footnotes and harder than any graduate school college texts I have ever read.

Now as to the LD partner not being able to speak up to get what they want. Well sometimes the problem, the really key underlying problem is that they cannot speak up. One of the key concepts that Schnarch preaches is self-soothing. In my wife's case it was and still is incredibly hard for her to self-sooth enough to allow or ask for new or slightly different things sexually.

While I, as the HD partner, am usually willing to ask for sexual things, there are times, when my "ego" is so fragile that I too fear rejection and it is difficult to ask. 

Schnarch's approach is not for everyone, but for some it is eye-opening and helpful.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Tex X said:


> In theory this sounds great, but in practice honestly how many men do you think could/would follow through with this right after their own orgasm.


I have, but it’s her call how soon we keep it going, she usually needs more time than me. For me an O is like a shot of adrenaline. I literally just need to catch my breath and maybe have some water.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

badsanta said:


> His ideas get into the notion of couples where the males has always made the woman come first are actually selfish on behalf of the male. The female should be allowed to make her husband come first and then get to be the one taken care of next if she wants and she should be able to enjoy doing so.
> 
> It suggests that people that have problems with the smell or taste of oral should learn how to overcome that discomfort. (that smell and taste contains pheromones that rewire the brain to enjoy sex)
> 
> I have to admit that this is interesting if you ask me! Absolutely a great book! Anyone agree or disagree?


While I am always a cheerleader for oral sex, I have to disagree with a couple things.

As a female I prefer to come first when we're just doing oral and the male refractory period is why. If my partner isn't sexually aroused when performing oral I find the oral itself and the vibe in general to be meh. If I make my partner orgasm first he will be in his refractory period when it's my turn and not capable of the mutual arousal I crave and need to enjoy the activity. If I wanted to have a blah orgasm without a penis involved I can do that for myself.

While I do think people should give oral a chance because it could be an acquired taste, well, the reality is that bacterial imbalance, yeast, and STD's (to name a few), are a thing. I truly hope the authors mentioned the possibility that any unpleasant odor or flavor could be attributed to disease, infection, imbalance, or even allergic reaction and the person with the issue needs to see a doctor to be specifically checked for genital or reproductive issues. I know people who've literally had STD's, imbalances, or mild infections for months-years because they weren't showing any symptoms of something amiss outside of a scent or taste change their partners finally mentioned _after _they'd already been diagnosed at the doctors office. If something's off speak up, people!


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

notmyjamie said:


> If its selfish to let me go first and then initiate PIV then I guess I’m ok with selfish as I prefer it this way. It creates great little aftershocks that are very pleasurable for me. They make PIV way better.
> 
> One size does not fit all it seems.


So I think I get where the book is coming from (so to speak?). The wife, if given oral first, may feel like she's being manipulated, that after she comes, then she's required to take care of the guy.

Guess a good question might be, how often does a guy give oral to his wife (first) and *not* expect PIV in return? And I don't mean "expect" in a bad way; rather, that it's almost a learned response. But not everyone might appreciate the lesson.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> So I think I get where the book is coming from (so to speak?). The wife, if given oral first, may feel like she's being manipulated, that after she comes, then she's required to take care of the guy.
> 
> Guess a good question might be, how often does a guy give oral to his wife (first) and *not* expect PIV in return? And I don't mean "expect" in a bad way; rather, that it's almost a learned response. But not everyone might appreciate the lesson.


Interesting take. Even if I didn't care for PIV, the fact that my guy did something good for me would make me want to do something good for him so I still just don't see the problem. If my guy expected me to do something for him without him ever wanting to do something for me I'd see that as an issue. But, he takes care of me but still can't ask for something he really likes seems a bit unfair to him. Maybe it's just me.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

notmyjamie said:


> Interesting take. Even if I didn't care for PIV, the fact that my guy did something good for me would make me want to do something good for him so I still just don't see the problem. If my guy expected me to do something for him without him ever wanting to do something for me I'd see that as an issue. But, he takes care of me but still can't ask for something he really likes seems a bit unfair to him. Maybe it's just me.


I don't think it's just you; I think it's most people. But I do think there's likely some who might possibly enjoy oral less because it's associated with doing something less pleasurable (possibly unpleasant to them) after.

But overall, tit-for-tat does not seem like an unfair deal.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Tex X said:


> In theory this sounds great, but in practice honestly how many men do you think could/would follow through with this right after their own orgasm. I would put money on it being a very low percentage. Like I said before, it takes me minimally 10-15 minutes before I can perform any additional acts, but once I'm ready I can and regularly do give to my wife with no expectation of an orgasm of my own. I love giving that to my wife and could spend all day doing it.




I agree with you! And I’m the same way, I’m exhausted after I have an orgasm. I need a nap after and my boyfriend pops up more energized.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> While I do think people should give oral a chance because it could be an acquired taste, well, the reality is that bacterial imbalance, yeast, and STD's (to name a few), are a thing.


The author did mention this area of his work was intended for monogamous relationships and for anyone trying outside of that were some stern warnings about STDs.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> I told her that after 48 years of marriage, I had given up on that. She told me to not give up quite yet as she might be able to at some point in the future.


Thanks for sharing. The comment above seems like a pretty big deal in and of itself regarding a breakthrough that can be made when put in context with all of Schnarch's work leading up to this exercise.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

One Eighty said:


> There are times when my partner does want it to be all about her. I never object bc anytime I want, she will help me out, whether or not she wants an orgasm. So on the rare occasion when she asks for it to be just for her and I have to wait, I am ok with that. Typically she just wants me to wait 20 min to an hour but even if I have to wait until the next day, I can oblige.
> 
> *My partner does not like to be given oral. She is somewhat homophobic (not openly, not in public) and considers that to be too close to a lesbian sex act. *
> 
> ...


I was re-reading this thread and I had missed this one. This is probably where Schnarch would point out that sometimes being intimate and very close with someone does not always feel good. Sometimes getting close to someone involves a lot of anxiety as we confront our own fears. 

My point being here... according to Schnarch's theories and ideas, if your wife can overcome her fears with you, it will create an overwhelming sense of acceptance for your relationship that will be emotionally intense. Doing so would require a lot of work on other things prior to this so that you could learn how to stay connected with one another in a collaborative alliance to work on overcoming this fear. In the meantime you are only serving her with a collusive alliance by allowing her to avoid her fears. 

Schnarch argues that collusive sexual alliances to avoid one's fears are perhaps the absolute worst thing a couple can do. Especially within the context of monogamous sex, for which oral is indeed monogamous in this context. 

Something to think about...

Badsanta


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

In one of his earlier books, Schnarch suggests breaking down a sex act into components, mastering each of the components separately, then bringing a few of them together and finally after you have mastered them all and some in groups doing the whole thing as a single sex act.

In the example you state of a swallowing blow job, you can break it down into components. With an oral flavored condom one can practice the mouth/hand work and learn how to accomplish that. After the mouth hand work is mastered, do it again, but focus on eye contact, smiles, yummy/happy noises.

Then one can on a different day work on the taste/texture of the "cum" by either playing with the contents of the condom, or say what is released during a hand job. Perhaps just using a finger to rub it around one's lips and then run a tongue over the lips to become familiar with the taste. After mastering the taste, take more and then later more until the texture is no longer so threatening.

Then once the pieces have all been mastered, pull it all together.

(I can dream! But still I do like to read Schnarch for his insights). Good luck.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> In one of his earlier books, Schnarch suggests breaking down a sex act into components, mastering each of the components separately, then bringing a few of them together and finally after you have mastered them all and some in groups doing the whole thing as a single sex act.
> 
> ....


I had to re-read a few things, but would like to acknowledge when it comes to body fluids he says that familiarity with those things needs to happen outside of the context of sex (I think he was referring to foreplay perhaps), and each person agree on what the comfort levels are beforehand. So for example if someone does not want to swallow, or does not want fluids in her mouth, it is best to have a plan in place for how to deal with that. Otherwise proceeding without that can be an emotionally disconnecting experience come time for climax.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

OK, now that I have read everything and digested it, the part I struggled with is that I think Schnarch suggests using oral sex as therapy BEFORE resuming traditional PIV lovemaking in couples struggling with LD/HD issues. To me *this seems so problematic as most couples have problems with oral*, but perhaps that is the exact point of this.

If I am understanding correctly, sexual fulfillment needs to shift into four wheel drive in order to achieve the traction needed to move the relationship forwards and get out of gridlock (kind of like getting a four wheel drive car unstuck from the mud, and realizing you were in two-wheel drive and spinning out to make things worse). So when sex goes into four wheel drive all four of the following are working:

1) *Husband enjoying giving* pleasure to his wife
2) *Wife enjoying receiving* pleasure from her husband
3) *Wife enjoying giving* pleasure to her husband
4) *Husband enjoying receiving* pleasure from his wife 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Gosh, maybe I am alone in thinking this, but I really don't like the author of this books approach or suggestions. I shudder to think what its like to be the woman that he sleeps with. Don't get me wrong. I don't mind a book about sex....but I really don't think you can just say something that is absolute that you apply to all couples. 

As for his specific advice on who cums first and when and what defines selfish, so much of that depends on the sexual dynamic between two individuals and what their specific preferences are. I have had lovers that push you off when giving them oral at first because it makes them cum fairly quickly and sometimes they want to wait a bit, and play for a while in other ways first. I've also had lovers that like to occasionally give a BJ with zero reciprocation, because they just like to do it. I also have an acquaintance who is a sex worker and she has had clientele that literally only want to go down on her and nothing else. I guess the point I am trying to make is it seems like the author is making rules. What is deemed selfish behavior by him, is something that many couples prefer or enjoy...depending on the time and/or circumstances surrounding it.

Overall when it comes down to it I don't think men are thinking about baseball during sex because they or their partner are selfish. I think they are trying to be considerate and make sure she gets hers as well. As you get older though you don't have to worry about being quick on the draw, but when you are younger you do. I still remember my go to delay technique. I would think of the actor John Goodman dressed in drag for just a second or two. That would be plenty enough to reset me LoL. Hmmmm....maybe I should write a book too. It would be more fun and humorous than than anything else though. I think we all can take sex a bit too seriously sometimes.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

ReformedHubby said:


> .....I really don't like the author of this books approach or suggestions......I don't mind a book about sex....but I really don't think you can just say something that is absolute that you apply to all couples.
> 
> ..... I guess the point I am trying to make is it seems like the author is making rules. What is deemed selfish behavior by him, is something that many couples prefer or enjoy...depending on the time and/or circumstances surrounding it.
> 
> .....I think we all can take sex a bit too seriously sometimes.


All true. Having been in marriage counseling and sex therapy with my wife, we have been given many home work reading assignments to help save our marriage. I totally agree that there is no one right answer. In fact that is one of the Hall Marks of the Schnarch Approach. He has called Marriage the hardest thing that two people can do, if done correctly. He has said that Marriage is a people (emotionally) growing machine that will place the two of you in a crucible and through fire and pressure render the two of you into a unit or it will destroy you.

He is all about two people finding negotiated compromises for all aspects of marriage and above all about urging people to grow emotionally (self differentiation) even when it is difficult and scary. Marriage is not suppose to be easy, it is suppose to be about commitment, caring, forgiving, and growing yourself.

Schnarch takes a tough-love and often controversial view of marriage and the problems that couples have. Not every insight works for every couple, but enough do that he sells lots of books and has a big following among some marriage counselors.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

ReformedHubby said:


> I shudder to think what its like to be the woman that he sleeps with.


There is another book he has where he describes a scenario between him and his wife hiking. Apparently he likes to hike at a faster pace than she can keep up, so he just goes on ahead without her. He will stop for a rest and prepare a snack for her to enjoy once she catches up. He describes this arrangement as rather pleasant and one where each gets to enjoy their own pace without upsetting the other... Well one time she never caught up. When he finally got upset enough to turn back to see what had happened he found her A FEW MILES BACK on the trail. 

The whole time reading this chapter, I imagined her walking behind him only twenty or fifty yards away (within earshot of one another). The fact that he just takes off and he feels OK leaving her trailing behind him all alone in the wilderness with a FEW MILES in between them.... 

Wow! What the heck! 

Badsanta


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

badsanta said:


> ... the part I struggled with is that I think Schnarch suggests using oral sex as therapy BEFORE resuming traditional PIV lovemaking in couples struggling with LD/HD issues. To me *this seems so problematic as most couples have problems with oral*, but perhaps that is the exact point of this.........


My read on his book Intimacy and Desire is that self-soothing and differentiation come before oral sex, unless the couple is comfortable with that act.

He talks about hugging till calm; then kissing eyes open, then orgasming eyes open.........and/or then using oral sex to jump start the re-wiring of the brain. The goal of each of these exercises is to create or increase sexual desire and sexual intimacy. Having your partners genitals in your mouth is pretty intimate. Yes, he talks about devotional (or one way) oral sex as a way to move things forward very quickly in terms of mind mapping and rewiring the brain, but my take is only if the two people in the committed relationship are ready for that step or are willing to try. 

So much of his book is devoted to self differentiation, a strong solid flexible self, a quite mind & heart, emotionally grounded responding, and meaningful endurance (tolerating pain for growth), as being things to work on and not to skip to oral sex as the ultimate solution. 

He also has a great section devoted to a mentor of his who asked him to include a chapter on the benefits of old fashioned "F#@king" or a polite way of saying to ravish each other sexually. That the emotional benefit of ravishing and being ravished cannot be underestimated. Yes, oral sex can be a way to ravish your partner or allow your partner to ravish you, but it can be done by other techniques as well.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> So much of his book is devoted to self differentiation, a strong solid flexible self, a quite mind & heart, emotionally grounded responding, and meaningful endurance (tolerating pain for growth), as being things to work on and not to skip to oral sex as the ultimate solution.


I agree and he is a bit wordy about some of those things, particularly about differentiation in his other book... But some of the main things a couple needs to work on (as individuals) approaching intimacy are:

1) Just be yourself
2) Stay Calm
3) Don't get defensive 
4) Put in the effort needed to follow through with things

On those four things, most couples have serious problems on all four. Irreconcilable problems put couples in situations where 1) someone is coerced into giving up who they are and perhaps violating their own integrity to do so. In turn come time for intimacy this dynamic prevents one of the two from just being themselves.

Most marriages 2) have serious arguments that are anything but constructive, which 3) each gets very defensive and takes emotional stabs at the other. 

Then 4) most couples avoid the effort needed to deal with things that are uncomfortable. Instead they often work together to help each other avoid things, which in the long term only serves to make problems worse and we cycle back to adding to the pile of problems stacked up on 1). 

So until you work out 1), 2), 3), and 4),.... oral sex therapy is not going to help!


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

badsanta said:


> There is another book he has where he describes a scenario between him and his wife hiking. Apparently he likes to hike at a faster pace than she can keep up, so he just goes on ahead without her. He will stop for a rest and prepare a snack for her to enjoy once she catches up. He describes this arrangement as rather pleasant and one where each gets to enjoy their own pace without upsetting the other... Well one time she never caught up. When he finally got upset enough to turn back to see what had happened he found her A FEW MILES BACK on the trail.
> 
> The whole time reading this chapter, I imagined her walking behind him only twenty or fifty yards away (within earshot of one another). The fact that he just takes off and he feels OK leaving her trailing behind him all alone in the wilderness with a FEW MILES in between them....
> 
> ...


LoL, I am happy for anyone's success. Kudos to him for writing books that resonate with so many. But from what little I know of his advice based on the excerpts on here. If I followed it to the letter, I'd find myself alone and sexless! I do agree with one thing he says though. Marriage does indeed take work.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

ReformedHubby said:


> LoL, I am happy for anyone's success. Kudos to him for writing books that resonate with so many. But from what little I know of his advice based on the excerpts on here. If I followed it to the letter, I'd find myself alone and sexless! I do agree with one thing he says though. Marriage does indeed take work.


*OH THE PLOT THICKENS!!!*

I just read in _another_ book of Schnarch's about one of his biggest struggles in life (_Passionate Marriage_). He did not want children but his wife did. So here is how that played out...

She stopped taking birth control and told Dr. Schnarch that if he did not want children then birth control would become his responsibility. This infuriated the man because he hated condoms and felt that female birth control was more reliable AND allowed their intimacy to be much closer with one another. So what did he do? Well oral sex became his way to fully connect with his wife as no birth control was needed (as in his only solution to have gratifying sex with his wife without a condom). 

Well that paints this exercise in a different light! In retrospect oral must have become a form of therapy for him until he sorted out his own feelings and eventually decided to become a father. He conveniently leaves this out of his book the recommends oral sex as therapy. @ReformedHubby you have some pretty good instincts! 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

badsanta said:


> *OH THE PLOT THICKENS!!!*
> 
> I just read in _another_ book of Schnarch's about one of his biggest struggles in life (_Passionate Marriage_). He did not want children but his wife did. So here is how that played out...
> 
> ...


Hmmmm...
I'm surprised she went along with the oral under those circumstances.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> *OH THE PLOT THICKENS!!!*
> 
> I just read in _another_ book of Schnarch's about one of his biggest struggles in life (_Passionate Marriage_). He did not want children but his wife did. So here is how that played out...
> 
> ...



But that doesn't meant that his insights about the validity of his methods should be disregarded - if anything, he clearly has more understanding of the power of those methods, because he knows first-hand how much they helped HIM (maybe...)!
Of course, ALL self-help/therapy books are helpful for some and not for others, and most of the authors realize that.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

So on the flip side, is keeping eyes closed during sex a sign of lack of intimacy?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Capster said:


> So on the flip side, is keeping eyes closed during sex a sign of lack of intimacy?


Not always.

Sometimes it's a good idea to close ones eyes during oral sex.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

If you bought the book then the objective was met ..... and I'm not talking about oral sex.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

What's Schnarch's response to somebody who feels oral sex is degrading/demeaning and not something they will ever willingly do?


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