# Training to cheat: The reward system of an EA via text



## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

I have this belief that texting (specifically texting or EA started via social networking) creates a "reward" system for a WS and an AP that basically trains them to go further with their EA and cheating. The delay between message/response creates the necessary tension which adds to the "reward". It is like Pavlov's dog trained to salivate to the sound of a bell (but humans, being more intelligent do not need an immediate reward. The delay only increases the tension and the resulting rush of getting a response). This is unlike the "old days" where you would have clandestine face to face meetings or phone calls (where often the hassle/risk and trouble would lead to "lunchbag letdown" or not taking the risk). The ease and anonymity makes it far easier to build an emotional connection. Thus many WS who would think about cheating but would not act upon it are NOW able to easily act out their fantasy with zero risk.

In the case of my wife: She is extremely selfish and self centered - which are necessary ingredients for cheating. We were going through a difficult time in our marriage (20 years at the beginning of her EA - both of our faults: kids, work, boredom, etc) which is another necessary ingredient. But when she started her EA, I don't believe that she was thinking with the end goal of ending up in the sack with the OM. 

I think the very first step of sending that first text (something as simple as "Hi, how are you doing?") was the most important step in the path to cheating. Very "innocent". But the big step of hitting the "send" button, then waiting, wondering if there will be a response increased the "reward" when the OM replied. After the rush of getting a reply, the baby steps continued. Each send/reply is like a "reward" for the WS. A thrill. They are training themselves to eventually have a PA. With very little effort they are getting "rewards". 

I've posted recently that I think the WS sometimes don't realize how their tiny steps off course add up. Each tiny step is another "innocent" decision to take the relationship further and in their fogged state of mind they are getting a reward with every response and they do not realize that soon they are headed for the shoals of infidelity.

Now, I am not making excuses for a WS's behaviour - I note that a necessary ingredient is selfishness. I would add that at some point, a person with character would realize what was happening, or at least confront the issue by being honest with their spouse. But I don't think all WS start an affair on Day One with evil intentions. It's a series of small bad decisions that they make - thinking each bad decision is discrete and unrelated to the previous bad decision. And each bad decision is rewarded when they get a response from the AP.

Anyway, that is my thought for the day. Not a psychologist so I might be totally wrong. Don't know what the solution is or how to prevent this from happening. But truly believe that texting and social networking has made affairs far easier to initiate. So the percentage of spouses wanting to cheat may be the same as before, but the percentage of spouses acting out their fantasies has increased tremendously.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

My EA started exactly this way - I think you're dead on. Plus one other factor. In analyzing my EA I came to realize that in the beginning my chatting with the OW via facebook or text felt more like a video game than anything else. Accordingly it felt like it was make believe and that were no consequences - cheater delusion I know now - but that's how it felt. By the time I figured out there was a real person on the other keyboard I was in way too deep to just step back. I was hooked and completely unable to walk away. 

It's well known that electronic media de-humanizes communication. Think of all the things said by email that would never have been said if the participants had been face to face or if the author had been forced to take the time and energy to write an actual letter. I think this element of distance from the receiving party - combined with the anticipation described above - play a huge part in the addictive nature of affairs that start online.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> Plus one other factor. In analyzing my EA I came to realize that in the beginning my chatting with the OW via facebook or text felt more like a video game than anything else.


Yes! That is kind of what I am thinking too. It is like a video game with the same reward system. Addictive. You could also say it's like a casino atmosphere too. Putting small bets down. Getting the occasional reward. Then putting all chips on the table after you've won a little bit and losing everything.


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## ChangingMe (Oct 3, 2012)

I would agree as well. My A started with FB messages. At first they were only every couple of weeks, and it really would have been no big deal -but then it became a big deal. Frequency increased, personal details increased, then it moved to texting. I agree with the depersonalizing and fantasy aspect. My A was with someone that we knew, and it's odd, because early on it was weird to be around him in person. It felt more comfortable over the computer screen or the phone; it seemed less real and easier to rationalize. By the time things got physical though, like sigma said, I was already in quite deep and had convinced myself that I had feelings for this person. 

As far as the solution, I know that I personally don't ever need to be messaging or texting any man that is not my husband. I don't want to open any door that can lead to anything inappropriate. I feel I have better boundaries now and am more aware of potential problems, but I don't even want to put myself in a position where I let my guard down. I have a husband; I don't need any type of friendship with another man.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Dead.On.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> Yes! That is kind of what I am thinking too. It is like a video game with the same reward system. Addictive. You could also say it's like a casino atmosphere too. Putting small bets down. Getting the occasional reward. Then putting all chips on the table after you've won a little bit and losing everything.


That would say to me the person who starts that is not interested in setting up a reward system with their spouse. A necessary step in intentionally going down the betraying path.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

ChangingMe said:


> I would agree as well. My A started with FB messages. At first they were only every couple of weeks, and it really would have been no big deal -but then it became a big deal. Frequency increased, personal details increased, then it moved to texting. I agree with the depersonalizing and fantasy aspect. My A was with someone that we knew, and it's odd, because early on it was weird to be around him in person. It felt more comfortable over the computer screen or the phone; it seemed less real and easier to rationalize. By the time things got physical though, like sigma said, I was already in quite deep and had convinced myself that I had feelings for this person.
> 
> As far as the solution, I know that I personally don't ever need to be messaging or texting any man that is not my husband. I don't want to open any door that can lead to anything inappropriate. I feel I have better boundaries now and am more aware of potential problems, but I don't even want to put myself in a position where I let my guard down. I have a husband; I don't need any type of friendship with another man.


So when all this was heading down the path towards betrayal, why didn't this drive you closer to him?


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

thatbpguy said:


> That would say to me the person who starts that is not interested in setting up a reward system with their spouse. A necessary step in intentionally going down the betraying path.


Not necessarily. It never dawned on me or my wife to set up a reward system between us. Never not once. Should it have - sure but it just didn't. I also didn't set out to create one with the OW, it developed. When the OW and I first started talking my intentions were as pure as the fresh driven snow, but as cedarman describes, a flirt here, an emoticon there the anticipation of "what will she say next" and it builds a life of it's own. 

My wife and I learned a lesson and today we have built a reward system between us that we both enjoy very much.


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## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> I have this belief that texting (specifically texting or EA started via social networking) creates a "reward" system for a WS and an AP that basically trains them to go further with their EA and cheating.


I believe that texting is the devil. I swear!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Very interesting thread.

I think social media is a two edged sword. I have a VERY close opposite sex friend who is not my wife, and the interaction is via social media. However, I ensured that my wife (a) knows we are talking, (b) has access to every word said....every email, every IM and (c) is included in all the conversations.

I couldn't do all that in the same way with a traditional friendship.

Boundaries are important. So, there are very restricted circumstances where we allow webcam usage...essentially not when we are alone. To me that's a big deal because her gender plays on my mind more when we talk via webcam.

And while we do share some very personal stuff, including marital issues, again there are boundaries on what we share, designed to prevent a mindset of "me and you, soulmates against the world".

All of this established and the rules put in place in consultation with my wife. 

Therefore I would say part of the issue in social media and affairs is the clandestine aspect. Take that out and a lot changes.


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## ChangingMe (Oct 3, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> So when all this was heading down the path towards betrayal, why didn't this drive you closer to him?


That's a very good question, and a difficult one even now to answer. 

I had sought more attention from my husband on more than one occasion, asking him to pay more attention to me, that it was important to me. I was giving the response, "Well, now that you asked I can't do it, since it will just be forced." So I quit asking. And then someone else started giving me attention, and it felt good. I should have stopped it, but I didn't. 

I don't mean to use this as an excuse. It's not. I should have made a bigger deal of my issue with my husband. I should have made him take me seriously, made him see that what I was asking was very important to me, that it was something I felt I was lacking in our marriage. I didn't intend to seek it elsewhere; I really didn't. But I liked it when I found it. 

I wish I had seen that as the giant red flag that it was, that I went straight to my husband and said, "OM has said these things to me, which is bad, but what is worse is that I liked hearing it. That's a problem. I don't want to be getting this from someone else, I want it from you. I'm sorry for interacting with this other person, and I will stop that, but what can we do between the two of us so we are both feeling like our needs are being met?"

I never should have cheated or even corresponded with OM so that it had the chance to become an EA. Nothing my husband did or didn't do is to blame for my terrible, selfish actions. That's all on me. I so wish I had done things differently and had the integrity to stop things before they started. I wish I had the insight I have now way back then.


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## ChangingMe (Oct 3, 2012)

Wazza said:


> And while we do share some very personal stuff, including marital issues, again there are boundaries on what we share, designed to prevent a mindset of "me and you, soulmates against the world".
> 
> All of this established and the rules put in place in consultation with my wife.
> 
> Therefore I would say part of the issue in social media and affairs is the clandestine aspect. Take that out and a lot changes.


I agree with you about the clandestine part. 

My husband texts and chats with a couple female friends that are also my friends. I know about this, he will allow me to read the texts or messages if I ask, the women know I know, their husbands know. They are the few friends that have stood with both of us through the A's aftermath, and they have been a great source of support for both of us. 

I have no problem with DD being friends with them, and that's because it is all above-board. The secrecy is when things become a problem. DD has even asked me if I have an issue with him talking to these women, and asked if he should stop interacting with them, since I told him that I would not text or chat with any men from here on out. I told him that was unnecessary. I am stopping myself from corresponding with men because I have proven to myself that this is a weak area for me and because I don't want to cause my husband any additional concerns or worries. He has not done that to me, so he is free to be friends with these women as long as I'm kept informed of the interactions.


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

Cedarman, you are 100 percent correct. My wife even told me how the little sound you get from an incoming text was exciting and she always looked forward to it. Over time, more and more of the texts can wear down the boundaries and make it easier take the next step. You're getting shots of dopamine with every text, you're also bonding, sharing personal information and joking, etc.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Just one reason I do not have a data plan on my phone. All it does it ring.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

JustPuzzled said:


> I am glad that someone started a thread on this subject. I have been wondering if the prevalence of texting and FB has led to an increase in EAs and PAs. What do people think? Statistics regarding infidelity are pretty unreliable but I have also wondered if texting and FB have changed the demographics of cheaters. Communicating this way seems to allow an illicit emotional connection to develop well before anything physical happens. Does this lead to an increase in CWs? For this to be the case you would need to agree with the generalization that women value the E side of an affair more than men do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I believe this. I think women cheat for different reasons and emotional connection is usually needed before the physical. The ease of texting makes it really easy for anybody to flirt "innocently". There is far less risk or humiliation of rejection when you flirt via text. But the rewards (i.e. a response) are significant. So it's skewed. Very little at risk - big reward (a response to your text). It becomes an addictive and intrusive behaviour pattern very quickly.

Again, using my wife as an example. My wife is a busy, successful professional in the investment industry (VP level). During the height of her EA/PA, she would leave her office in the middle of the day, go to her health club and use the public computers at the health club to text/sext with the POSOM. She would sometimes do this for hours at a time. I found this out by discovering her secret gmail account, hacking into it and viewing the login/IP records and Gmail Chat buddies (one contact) and then confronting her. (side note: She let me believe that it was just an EA - but it was already a PA and nearing or past the end. She claimed she was just "checking up on him to see if he was OK")


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

ChangingMe said:


> I agree with you about the clandestine part.
> 
> My husband texts and chats with a couple female friends that are also my friends. I know about this, he will allow me to read the texts or messages if I ask, the women know I know, their husbands know. They are the few friends that have stood with both of us through the A's aftermath, and they have been a great source of support for both of us.
> 
> I have no problem with DD being friends with them, and that's because it is all above-board. The secrecy is when things become a problem. DD has even asked me if I have an issue with him talking to these women, and asked if he should stop interacting with them, since I told him that I would not text or chat with any men from here on out. I told him that was unnecessary. I am stopping myself from corresponding with men because I have proven to myself that this is a weak area for me and because I don't want to cause my husband any additional concerns or worries. He has not done that to me, so he is free to be friends with these women as long as I'm kept informed of the interactions.


I don't follow your story closely, but I know enough of it to know things are still volatile, so your rules are wise.

Something for you to ponder. My wife is not superwoman, but she tries to be. She does things that many lesser women could not do, but she has her breaking point, and as her husband part of my job is to stop her hitting that breaking point. Her affair really was a result of her hitting it without me knowing. It could always happen again if we aren't careful.

So, can you live the rest of your life unable to talk to men? If so, fine, but in the longer term, would it be better to think about how to do it in a way that is safe and does not hurt your husband. 

My wife always knew about my friend, but it still made a big difference in my head when I explicitly brought her into the day to day friendship. Had I not done that I think it would have been very dangerous. And I also started using the same technology to communicate with my wife during the day, which has worked out really well. Now I get the buzz directly form my wife. And wife is in the loop with close OSF, but close OSF is not copied on what goes to wife, if that makes sense.


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## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

I agree with the OP, very spot on. I could recognize that I was heading into EA territory when I was texting. 

In my WW's case Facebook texting and Skype messaging sucked her into writing the most damaging and horrible things I could imagine.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Another addition to the theory:

Because of the ease, and relatively low rejection/humiliation risk of a texting EA - it does not take as much "unhappiness" in order to initiate an initial text/social networking contact with an OM/OW.
Therefore, a spouse only needs to be temporarily unhappy, or slightly unhappy in order to make the step into a texting/social networking relationship. This is vs before, when a spouse would need to really be near their limit before going to the trouble to initiate a face to face contact. Of course this still requires the character of the cheater to allow cheating - but in the two situations, given equal character (or lack of character) - texting is so much easier that it would take less "unhappiness" to start the chain of events which leads to cheating.

So again, the ease of texting creates an environment that facilitates cheating by making the establishment of an EA much easier.

The other thing, and this is from my perspective as a guy - it is far easier to BS (as in Bullsh*t) via texting because the woman receiving your text cannot see your face or your lecherous smirk or hear you trying to suppress a laugh. Eg - "Yes, I feel your pain. Your husband doesn't appreciate you like I do... I feel like your soulmate..." Much easier to do this via text than trying to keep a straight face as you say this in person, with a raging hard-on.

ETA - I said the last part a little tongue in cheek. But I do believe that there are very few men who want just an EA. Most men want to simply get into the unhappy wife's pants. If a relationship develops - even better... But I know of no guy who would be satisfied being another women's emotional soulmate.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

DrMathias said:


> I agree with the OP, very spot on. I could recognize that I was heading into EA territory when I was texting.
> 
> In my WW's case Facebook texting and Skype messaging sucked her into writing the most damaging and horrible things I could imagine.


My wife's affair was pre social media (1990). I am sure she and her OM had similar conversations to MrsM. At times I wish I could know exactly what was said, but at other times I am very glad I don't have that. I don't know whether I could deal with seeing the words. 

Maybe it's a threadjack, or maybe not, but the fact that conversations with lovers are preserved in this way is another aspect of how social media has changed the game.

Mat, your wife and her OM had regular face to face contact. Would their affair have happened without social media?


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## ChangingMe (Oct 3, 2012)

Wazza said:


> So, can you live the rest of your life unable to talk to men? If so, fine, but in the longer term, would it be better to think about how to do it in a way that is safe and does not hurt your husband.


Of course I have to interact with men at times; it would be impossible to live and work otherwise. I run a counseling agency, so I have to speak with clients, and it requires I go to speaking engagements and various other meetings where I have to introduce myself and get to know people. Currently though, I have no make employees (we're a small agency with a staff of 8). I purposely did not hire a man I interviewed back in June because DD was uncomfortable with it. 

I believe DD is ok with me talking to men as part of my job, or speaking with the husbands of the couples we are still friends with, but I don't think I will ever carry on an actual friendship with another man again. It seems unnecessary and too risky. I think I'm stronger and wiser now, but I also didn't think I'd have an A in the first place, so for me it is better to be safe than sorry. 

Sorry for the threadjack. Carry on.


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## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Mat, your wife and her OM had regular face to face contact. Would their affair have happened without social media?


Interesting question. MrsM can correct me on the following guesses. 

The first inkling OM was romantically interested was physical, a kiss. She claims to have 'never thought of him romantically' until that moment, and even after that she says no fantasies developed. A week later, kissing and oral sex. Keep in mind they had texted via FB almost daily for two years, though not of EA level material, and she did it with hordes of students, male and female. I'm sure the 'thrill of a response' was there. 

I think more conducive to the affair was the fact they worked closely in an emotionally charged environment, WW and OM were paired as characters with romantic undertones in a musical, and he was on hand *always* when she needed emotional support in her workplace. Plus in her words she was "an antenna tuned to his frequency" from the second they met. He was invested in her program, her productions, her mission. 

I think my WW had a massive addiction to electronic messaging. If she didn't hear from someone, usually a student, she would initiate and prod them. She had a real, genuine weakness there. I think the thrill of that feedback, the response, was very much part of her attempt to fill a void in her. 

So, MrsM's PA starts, two days later she goes to NYC, there is a FalseR that starts the day she gets back, followed by face-to-face and texting via Skype. 

All in all, from start of PA on, I'm going to hazard a guess that WW and OM spent about 20 hours maximum together, alone, physically face to face. That's rounding up her call girl sexcapade quickies to hour long encounters and being liberal on her 'book drop offs'. Maybe another 12 hours with others present, including cuckold me. Pretty lame really. (This of course assumes I was told the truth on the last Dday.) 

I think it would be impossible to estimate the hours they spent texting, sexting, messaging, waiting, anticipating, salivating for the response to their messages. WW even sexted OM when I was in the next room sleeping. WW, horrifically, allowed OM to sext her while she was running a rehearsal and managed to distract her enough to make a mistake. That is definitely not the professional woman I knew and quite frankly is harder for me to get over than some of the physical stuff. What a wonderful man, devoted to the theatre, that gets off on getting a woman wet while she is working on a professional NYC opera production. MrsM sexted pretty much the whole time she was in NYC and really ramped it up when I left early to come home. Sadly she deleted her FB conversation before I could archive the whole thing, I only have July and I'm sure I missed a LOT. I have only a tiny fragment of Skype message and its a real gem. I know how an archaeologist feels when they have incomplete parchment fragments 

Video Skyping, and talking on the phone, countless hours. WW couldn't even guess how many times she had text Skyped in October alone. The three weeks WW was in NYC and I was home childrearing and being cuckolded, was the bulk of their time together as two cheaters. 

Bottom line is that texting and video really solidified their PA and EA bond when she was in NYC, and it was how they stayed bonded when underground. I'm sure it kept my WW from realizing she was an unglamorous sextoy. Because of her horrible boundaries, naiveté, emotional vulnerability, and repressed sexual attraction for her student I think it would have *easily* gone physical without any electronic involvement whatsoever. OM didn't even have a phone to text with :scratchhead:


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

A video game is a brilliant way to describe it. My spouse is super shy in real life and I would be surprised if he could be so bold in person. Text lets you try on other personas. He likes to use the " I don't go looking for it", but I think by the forth or fifth text/chat exchange you can't say that excuse again. 

Another aspect that always boggles my mind is the speed by which these relationships progress. Warp speed. My spouse was saying I love you to her within 2-3 weeks. It's almost like being in love with a AI version of your perfect mate. 

Rewards- he also said that he would leave his chat window open to always be available to her night and day....and she lived across the world so,they were really off. Now when I look back I should have spotted it faster. He was always jonesing to be on his iPad.....and I thought he just loved scrabble!!! 

It really was like watching a druggie get their fix. Spot on with your ideas....I fact u hope more experts become aware of how fast this type of infidelity is taking over things.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

daggeredheart said:


> A video game is a brilliant way to describe it. My spouse is super shy in real life and I would be surprised if he could be so bold in person. Text lets you try on other personas. He likes to use the " I don't go looking for it", but I think by the forth or fifth text/chat exchange you can't say that excuse again.



That's another great point. For a naturally shy person, texting or social networking is a safe way to break the ice. If it's rejected you just put it in the trash folder. Way less humiliating than a slap in the face or being rejected in person. Texting/social networking opens up the world of cheating to a group of people who would never be brazen enough to do it before.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

DrMathias said:


> Interesting question. MrsM can correct me on the following guesses.
> 
> The first inkling OM was romantically interested was physical, a kiss. She claims to have 'never thought of him romantically' until that moment, and even after that she says no fantasies developed. A week later, kissing and oral sex. Keep in mind they had texted via FB almost daily for two years, though not of EA level material, and she did it with hordes of students, male and female. I'm sure the 'thrill of a response' was there.
> 
> ...


32 hours physically together seems low if they were working on productions together.....over six months, five hours a week would be 130 hours.

My wife's pre Internet affair they probably had 200-300 hours together and spent the night together only once. 

Instant messaging kind of changes what together means to me. You an be exchanging messages while doing something else and it feel like together time. So you can be almost constantly together in a virtual sense. Much more than if you have to physically sneak away.


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## SkaterDad (Aug 21, 2012)

Same with my WW, email first, then text/email. I can see how it works so well, as I can tst the waters with any given chick at this point. Innuendos work well since sarcasm/jokes don't come across well, so if you crossed a boundary, you can always save face. In person it would never work. So a heavily sexual comment via text can have a "lighter" meaning, or it can sow the seeds for an EA/PA. Then when you meet, there's 0 boundary. 

Great thread CM.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

> As it turns out, receiving and answering a notification results in a hit of dopamine, a chemical neurotransmitter associated with the motivation and reward response in the human brain. Dopamine is also released in high quantities when we consume drugs or have sex. Social media notifications can have the same addictive effect.
> 
> Is this addiction real, though? In China, Taiwan and South Korea "Internet Addiction Disorder" is already accepted as a psychological diagnosis. *Next year it will be included in the fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders (DSM-V), the American "bible of psychology*."
> 
> Facebook and Internet addiction can have damaging effects, such as a decrease in our attention span -- in fact, since 2000, our collective attention span has decreased by 40%.


http://mashable.com/2012/11/03/facebook-addiction/


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## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Wazza said:


> 32 hours physically together seems low if they were working on productions together.....over six months, five hours a week would be 130 hours.
> 
> My wife's pre Internet affair they probably had 200-300 hours together and spent the night together only once.
> 
> Instant messaging kind of changes what together means to me. You an be exchanging messages while doing something else and it feel like together time. So you can be almost constantly together in a virtual sense. Much more than if you have to physically sneak away.


The time I stated when they were physically together is my very, very liberal estimate and is from the moment of the kiss, when my WW was acknowledging to herself that she was in an affair instead of living in denial. Of course, before that she was in a hardcore EA and spent innumerable hours in the OMs presence. She would say she wasn't doing anything at that time she wasn't doing with me (besides confiding in OM that I thought she might be in an affair with him!). She was behaving extremely inappropriately but it was around and in front of others. 

I guess my point is that their alone physical time was an extremely small fraction of their social media time, but that's mostly because she was in NYC. I shudder to think what would have happened if she had stayed home for the summer. I suspect there would have been a lot of reasons for her to 'be at school'. The time she devoted to me and my son was infinitesimally small when her EA started. After DDay1 I think OM and I really just got scraps of time from her. She barely has time to love one person, let alone two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Do not forget her son too. Where was he in all of this.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Couple more points to make about texting/rewards. 

Fans of the Office show might remember the episode where Jim steals Dwight's personal letterhead paper and faxes him notes from "Dwight in the future" .....reminds me of aspects of a texting/online EA. It's like they are mesmerized by a alternate version of their idealized self??? At the very least it's like creating a customized lover with all your favorite features and if you act now, we will throw in a bonus "soul mate" option for 19.99 

Example, there was a expert on NPR who talked about the dangers of driving while on the cellphone even if using a blue tooth. He said that the brain will "visualize" and imagine the person on the other end while you talk thus you are not absorbing the traffic/road around you because your brain really can't multitask despite we think we can. I think that happens with the texting/online stuff as well. Of course if they use skype they have a more complete picture to toy with. 

The WS involved is infatuated with the unlimited possibilities they think that person has. They have no actual mannerisms to rely on so they fill in the blanks with the best scenarios. For instance, you are at a coffee shop, you see a beautiful woman who looks like she stepped out of a magazine but when she smiles at you she is missing a few teeth and the ones left are decayed, things that can be hidden on the net. Or perhaps it's a certain way with their mannerisms. Those physical turn offs are what we use as eliminators when actually interacting with people in real life. 

Here is one thing I found really bizarre in my husbands experience with _falling in love_ online..... bear in mind he works as a computer security white hat hacker so he is normally leery 98% of the time when it comes to people on the net. Mr paranoid took at face value that everything she told him was true. It didn't bother him that she wouldn't skype because she just cut her hair short, or that her pictures on facebook were infrequently updated. He never asked her to hold up a sign with his name, date etc to show she was real. 

Since he met her via a ipad game he just assumed she wasn't a troll. Her dream was to get out of Iran and come to the US so she could get a PHD in astrophysics.....well that right there was all he needed to believe she was his dream girl....a chick who likes space..whooo hoooo. He was so enthralled with those qualities that he never bothered to see past that Oz curtain. Goes back to multitasking and visualization. He couldn't see past what _he_ wanted to believe about her to even be skeptical of her story. 

During D-Day month when I asked him how he would feel about her if he discovered she was a 65 year old man sitting in a farm house in Indiana he said he would be pissed and his love for her would null and void.....so it proves my point...they "love" this person as long as they play their part in the fantasy. It's very conditional. Even though the context and commonalities of their chatting which caused him to feel emotional feelings towards her weren't changed. So the waiting for the reward is still juicy but it has to have the component of the idealized lover on the other end work. Like peanut butter and jelly. 

Ironic he still couldn't see that he expected me to _still love him_ despite his lies to me??????


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

jim123 said:


> Do not forget her son too. Where was he in all of this.


Hope i didn't start a threadjack.

My questions to DrM were targetting the question of physical vs virtual time together, which i think is on topic. I don't want to divert into more general discussion of Dr M's situation. Or is there a link between the son and social media that I don't see?


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

The gist of this post is that certain games can suck you in to inappropriate conversations when none were intended. 

That's it! 

So you can skip the details or read on as you please. 

In 2001-2002 when my son was 6/7 yo we joined an online game "Toontown". It was fun - he had a character and I had one too. We ran into other characters where we teamed up to fight the bad guys of toontown. 

When enough points were earned, characters could talk to each other with "live, and real words" instead of the canned "Good job!" phrases available to newbies. 

Of course there were many parents as characters. I got to communicate with a certain group from all over the world. Our conversations bordered on 'risky' but because kids were also present seemed safe. Of course all during these 'side conversations' things got more personal and little red flags would pop up but were ignored mostly. 

Soon my son lost interest after a few minutes of play, but, because the game promotes teamwork, I continued with game partners and the conversation with the adults continued. 

After a few months one of the women from another county asked me for my email address to send me a list of 'cheats' for the game.

Okay, got the 'cheats' and soon a joke per day. 

Then a picture of her and her kid. 

Then complaints about her life. 

I'm no rube so I had an idea where this could lead. I didn't encourage, but didn't shut it down either.( My wife knew I was communicating with other players.)

Then she asked me if I had skype. At that time (about 2003) I didn't know what that was - she asked if I had a cam on the computer.

I did but told her I didn't. 

I deleted Toontown the next day. deleted the hotmail acct. Haven't been back. I'm pretty sure that was a very slippery slope. It was all 'innocent' but not so much IYKWIM and even then I had a period of 'withdrawal'. 

I think games like Toontown (a Disney Product of all things) actually promotes risqué conversation. 
Their list of 15 or so canned phrases which are innocent to kids, can be combined to form clever risqué phrases filled with innuendo. "want to play at my house?"; "come with me"; "that's going to leave a stain!"; "That's gotta hurt"; "Don't be mean"; etc. That aspect was actually quite fun. 

But that set the tone and atmosphere for the time "real time, real word" conversations were earned. The game was such that only characters designated as "friends" were able to read the real words - to others the words appeared as "Blah, blah" so if you could actually conduct a very private conversation in view of every other player. 

Some young, smart, budding psychology student should take a good look at that game. 

It promotes the forging of real partnerships that work toward a shared goal. It promotes, loyalty ( a character can be offed by a bad guy - if the partner doesn't bail), it allows for secretive communication. 

A good thesis topic IMO.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

daggeredheart said:


> The WS involved is infatuated with the unlimited possibilities they think that person has. They have no actual mannerisms to rely on so they fill in the blanks with the best scenarios. For instance, you are at a coffee shop, you see a beautiful woman who looks like she stepped out of a magazine but when she smiles at you she is missing a few teeth and the ones left are decayed, things that can be hidden on the net. Or perhaps it's a certain way with their mannerisms. Those physical turn offs are what we use as eliminators when actually interacting with people in real life.


This is exactly what I am getting at. The unlimited possibilities of your imagination. Once tweaked, your imagination can run wild. And every response to your texts is another tweak. Whereas if you met in real life you might be turned off by a mannerism WAY before any emotional connection is made. Once an emotional connection is made online - I believe the brain continues to "fill in the blanks" once you meet in person. Rationalization takes over and the EA gets out of control.

Again, I am not in any way trying to make excuses for WS's. They need to have the ability to lie, and the lack of character to carry on a deception of spouse and of family. But the baby steps of an on-line affair and the brain-training aspects often lead a WS to areas they had no idea they were headed when they began their EA.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

walkonmars - you had the character needed to stop what was happening. Well done.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

There's a point where reality hits. It's unfortunate that a strong emotional attachment has occurred by this point and then justification begins.

*Our minds and emotions don't interpret VIRTUAL very well* even though our intellect knows. For that matter we don't deal well with other changes like women in the workforce either. No wonder infidelity is so high.

Try telling this to a teenager or young adult though and you'll get laughed at.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

It's like that movie catfish and the spawn off series by the same name via MTV.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Found this very interesting...

Absent f2f cues combined with text communication can have an interesting effect on people. Sometimes they feel that their mind has merged with the mind of the online companion. Reading another person's message might be experienced as a voice within one's head, as if that person magically has been inserted or "introjected" into one's psyche. Of course, we may not know what the other person's voice actually sounds like, so in our head we assign a voice to that companion. In fact, consciously or unconsciously, we may even assign a visual image to what we think that person looks like and how that person behaves. The online companion now becomes a character within our intrapsychic world, a character that is shaped partly by how the person actually presents him or herself via text communication, but also by our expectations, wishes, and needs. Because the person may even remind us of other people we know, we fill in the image of that character with memories of those other acquaintances.
As the character now becomes more elaborate and "real" within our minds, we may start to think, perhaps without being fully aware of it, that the typed-text conversation is all taking place within our heads, as if it's a dialogue between us and this character in our imagination - even as if we are authors typing out a play or a novel. Actually, even when it doesn't involve online relationships, many people carry on these kinds of conversations in their imagination throughout the day. People fantasize about flirting, arguing with a boss, or very honestly confronting a friend about what they feel. In their imagination, where it's safe, people feel free to say and do all sorts of things that they wouldn't in reality. At that moment, reality IS one's imagination. Online text communication can become the psychological tapestry in which a person's mind weaves these fantasy role plays, usually unconsciously and with considerable disinhibition. All of cyberspace is a stage and we are merely players.

When reading another's message, it's also possible that you "hear" that person's words using your own voice. We may be subvocalizing as we read, thereby projecting the sound of our voice into the other person's message. Perhaps unconsciously, it feels as if I am talking to/with myself. When we talk to ourselves, we are willing to say all sorts of things that we wouldn't say to others!


Psychology of Cyberspace - The Online Disinhibition Effect


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## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Interesting thread. I'm starting to think the affair fog is a form of temporary insanity whether caused by online activity or not. Permanent, for some particularly foolish WSs. 

I'm recalling playing an MMORPG many years ago called _City of Heroes_, in which players take on the role of a superhero. I ran around a lot with a cute female character named Rejuvenate, and I am ashamed to admit wondering about the _player_ a bit. Ultimately I didn't want to know if RJ was played by a male or female- my WW at one point found out as she played along with me, and when she asked if I wanted to know I said I didn't. I was pretty sure RJ was a male IRL at that point. Odd to think about. 

Before _CoH_ ended in November I sent a message to Rejuvenate with my email in case I didn't log back in, asking if the player was in any other games online, as they were a lot of fun. Turns out RJ is played by a male, and enough time had passed that I didn't think one way or another about it. This thread made me think about that whole interaction in another way. Strangeness.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

The fog definitely is a form of temporary insanity. Unfortunately, it leaves lasting changes on everybody touched by the fog. And you're right, sometimes the fog becomes permanent - even if the AP is gone. My STBXW is an example. I called it a MLC, which is a type of fog - but hers has lasted so much longer than a MLC and she acted out her thoughts. Ever since her affair, she is obsessed with meeting somebody much younger than her (at least 12 - 13 years younger). Even her girlfriends are slowly being weeded out of anybody her age and many of her new friends do not know that my STBXW is actually 48 (she likes to be thought of 10 years younger). It's very strange. And she's not happy. She is taking my two daughters to Cuba for New Year's and when she was over here yesterday picking up some stuff, she was crying. It's very strange. Yet, she'll bounce back by staying out all night clubbing.

My STBXW is intelligent and successful, but she is truly messed up emotionally and in her personal relationships. Still in the fog.

And she got into the fog baby steps at a time in part because of the secrecy, thrill and addictive nature of text/bbm/social networking. Seriously - when she got her first blackberry - years ago - it was like total freedom for her to have a secret, personal place for emails and messages and an exciting new life (away from kids and husband). In fact, during our false R (after I discovered what I thought was an EA) - when she reluctantly gave me her phone password - it was "Newlife2010". So everytime she used her phone, she was re-inforcing her vision of a new, single life. My mistake was in not using the password to check - I was way too trusting, thinking having the password was enough. 

Of course, a person has to be predisposed to cheat, so even without texting, etc - it might have happened anyway


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> The fog definitely is a form of temporary insanity. Unfortunately, it leaves lasting changes on everybody touched by the fog. And you're right, sometimes the fog becomes permanent - even if the AP is gone. My STBXW is an example. I called it a MLC, which is a type of fog - but hers has lasted so much longer than a MLC and she acted out her thoughts. Ever since her affair, she is obsessed with meeting somebody much younger than her (at least 12 - 13 years younger). Even her girlfriends are slowly being weeded out of anybody her age and many of her new friends do not know that my STBXW is actually 48 (she likes to be thought of 10 years younger). It's very strange. And she's not happy. She is taking my two daughters to Cuba for New Year's and when she was over here yesterday picking up some stuff, she was crying. It's very strange. Yet, she'll bounce back by staying out all night clubbing.
> 
> My STBXW is intelligent and successful, but she is truly messed up emotionally and in her personal relationships. Still in the fog.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. Matters of the heart. The contents of a person's heart manifest one way or another. It's just disheartening how we misjudged, erring on the side of caution (thinking and hoping the best of and for them) while they erred on the side of excitement (thinking and hoping the best for themselves).


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## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

RightfulRiskTaker said:


> Absolutely. Matters of the heart. The contents of a person's heart manifest one way or another. It's just disheartening how we misjudged, erring on the side of caution (thinking and hoping the best of and for them) while they erred on the side of excitement (thinking and hoping the best for themselves).


I need to work writing things concisely- that's a great statement.


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

Cedarman said:


> The fog definitely is a form of temporary insanity. Unfortunately, it leaves lasting changes on everybody touched by the fog. And you're right, sometimes the fog becomes permanent - even if the AP is gone. My STBXW is an example. I called it a MLC, which is a type of fog - but hers has lasted so much longer than a MLC and she acted out her thoughts. Ever since her affair, she is obsessed with meeting somebody much younger than her (at least 12 - 13 years younger). Even her girlfriends are slowly being weeded out of anybody her age and many of her new friends do not know that my STBXW is actually 48 (she likes to be thought of 10 years younger). It's very strange. And she's not happy. She is taking my two daughters to Cuba for New Year's and when she was over here yesterday picking up some stuff, she was crying. It's very strange. Yet, she'll bounce back by staying out all night clubbing.
> 
> My STBXW is intelligent and successful, but she is truly messed up emotionally and in her personal relationships. Still in the fog.
> 
> ...


This is one of the best threads on TAM.

I registered on TAM before under another name. I explained my situation and got burnt from the members here so bad I almost did something VERY bad to myself. But I didn't. I did rip down all my threads and lock myself out of my account. Thank you so much for this thread. Hugs.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> . * It is like Pavlov's dog trained to salivate to the sound of a bell (but humans, being more intelligent do not need an immediate reward. The delay only increases the tension and the resulting rush of getting a response). * .


:iagree:

Damn Op,
You're a genius.

Pavlov's dog
Emotional Conditioning........
Makes quite a lot of sense!

Where's Machiavelli on this one?


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

Also, I want to point out that the phrase you used "temporary insanity" is fitting. 

The emails and chat session responses are given sporadically. You'll get some responses quickly then for no apparent reason you'll get nothing. Then maybe you'll get some nasty responses. And again for a period of time you'll get amazing responses. It's the same principles as gambling and addicts you in the same way. After a while you do go "insane" because you forget everything else except the "win." Because when you "win" the chemicals in your brain overflow and you feel like you've found heaven. And the people who are most at risk are those who have poor real life family and friend relationships which is why they are talking to strangers to begin with. However, anyone can get caught up in the online roleplaying game of: Am I desirable?.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Enchanted, you shined a light on another point that hit me, poor family life and no friends.....fits my husband to a T. He literally has two friends, a coworker (who is a horrible bromance, always hit or misss) and my brother who lives over a 1000 miles away. Husband has three family members and they don't talk because they just don't put in the effort on all sides. 

I know that is a huge reason why he is drawn to to net to find power and acceptance on the net and he is especially prone to online escapes. So no matter how wonderful our marriage is, it won't heal those wounds.


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

daggeredheart said:


> Enchanted, you shined a light on another point that hit me, poor family life and no friends.....fits my husband to a T. He literally has two friends, a coworker (who is a horrible bromance, always hit or misss) and my brother who lives over a 1000 miles away. Husband has three family members and they don't talk because they just don't put in the effort on all sides.
> 
> I know that is a huge reason why he is drawn to to net to find power and acceptance on the net and he is especially prone to online escapes. So no matter how wonderful our marriage is, it won't heal those wounds.


That's true. You might be the best wife in the world but you cannot be a whole support system. However, it's easy to go online and make friends and those friends don't make any demands of you. The friendship is easy, gives the user a lot of control and the instant satisfaction is pleasing.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Also gives solitary people a sense of belonging. Here is another snippet from the above linked article...

Humans need physical contact with each other. Infants sink into depression and die without it. How parents interact physically with them becomes a cornerstone of their identity and well-being. Adults deprived of tactile contact for long periods will tell you just how depriving it feels. In day-to-day relationships, never underestimate the power of a handshake, a pat on the back, a hug, or a kiss.

On this level of human relating, cyberspace falls short... way short. In multimedia chat communication there are some vague hints of physical contact, as when you snuggle up your avatar next to someone else's. People can also give you a virtual [[[hug]]] in text relationships. But this is a far cry from the in-person counterpart. Unfortunately, it's not very likely that CSR - even holographic ones - will ever develop kinesthetic capabilities, unless technology figures out how to accurately record someone's caress and transmit that digital record into the other's nervous system. Products that transmit tactile stimulation online are being developed, but are still quite crude compared to the subtle but powerful dimensions of in-person human touch. You can argue until the cows come home about how you can psychologically and emotionally embrace someone through words alone, but the bottom line is that you can't and probably never will be able to hold your loved one in cyberspace.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Interesting note, I remember my spouse talking out both sides of his mouth regarding his EA. On one hand it felt very real so real he said it hurt to not be able to hug or touch her and yet at the same time he felt very stupid to be involved with someone he only knew through the net. Like a split brain situation. 

The fact that eventually the texting/chatting wont be enough and the ache to have physical touch would be the obvious next step in order to get the reward. 

I'm sure if she had lived within the states he would have been driven to meet her in person and I would be in a very different outcome.


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

daggeredheart said:


> Also gives solitary people a sense of belonging. Here is another snippet from the above linked article...
> 
> Humans need physical contact with each other. Infants sink into depression and die without it. How parents interact physically with them becomes a cornerstone of their identity and well-being. Adults deprived of tactile contact for long periods will tell you just how depriving it feels. In day-to-day relationships, never underestimate the power of a handshake, a pat on the back, a hug, or a kiss.
> 
> On this level of human relating, cyberspace falls short... way short. In multimedia chat communication there are some vague hints of physical contact, as when you snuggle up your avatar next to someone else's. People can also give you a virtual [[[hug]]] in text relationships. But this is a far cry from the in-person counterpart. Unfortunately, it's not very likely that CSR - even holographic ones - will ever develop kinesthetic capabilities, unless technology figures out how to accurately record someone's caress and transmit that digital record into the other's nervous system. Products that transmit tactile stimulation online are being developed, but are still quite crude compared to the subtle but powerful dimensions of in-person human touch. You can argue until the cows come home about how you can psychologically and emotionally embrace someone through words alone, but the bottom line is that you can't and probably never will be able to hold your loved one in cyberspace.


And the truth is online relationships aren't so perfect. People are good at "conning" themselves. They can read messages and decide they mean what they want them to mean. A point I think you pointed out earlier. 

Recently, I've been very disappointed in two real life friendships that I've invested a lot of time and energy into and decided to distant myself from these two friends. Online what is the worst thing someone can do to me: Not answer my post. I can live with that.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Wow, 4 pages, how did I miss this thread?

What I find interesting about texting is that the dating gurus (like on AARP's website and elsewhere) will tell you that texting is not real communication. You can't set up proper dates through text only or make a proper connection.

Yet, we on this board know that electronic messaging can be a prelude to a real relationship. 

I wish I had known that sooner. My fiance admitted that since his EA conitnued to text him, it made him curious to see her again. And in hindsight, I can see how she made use of his FB wall to communicate with him and, I feel strongly, to let me know of her presence if I had been looking. 

In any case, I am wondering what these dating gurus are on about considering how in legitmate dating situation, one or the other partner could enhance their relationship by regular texting.

Certainly, once my fiance and I became exclusive, I started using texting more to stay in touch with him on days that we didn't see each other.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> What I find interesting about texting is that the dating gurus (like on AARP's website and elsewhere) will tell you that texting is not real communication. You can't set up proper dates through text only or make a proper connection.
> 
> Yet, we on this board know that electronic messaging can be a prelude to a real relationship.
> 
> ...




I think the dating guru's are partly right - texting sometimes is NOT real communication. It is fantasy communication. You have no idea (in the case of "dating") what the person on the other side is really saying or whether it is even sincere.

The addictive nature of texting is that when you send a message, it is with the intrinsic hope of getting a response. And it is relatively risk-free - It is not like face to face communication where you see all the flaws and see all the expressions. I truly believe that the anticipation of the response, increases the "reward" when you get it. You become "grateful" for the response. This builds an emotional connection all by itself - a sense of connection, a sense of fulfilling a need. 

Once the sense of fulfilling a need happens then the emotional connection grows. And once the emotional connection grows, it does not matter what the AP or DS looks like or acts like in real life. Rationalization takes over and makes excuses.

The reason I started this thread is my belief that not all WS start off their EA with an idea or knowledge of the dangerous path they could be taking. Again, it takes a person with a propensity to cheat - but texting allows this type of person to begin the process of cheating or training themselves to cheat with almost zero risk.

So my belief is that the number of people who WANT to cheat hasn't grown. But the number of people who are acting out on their desire to cheat has grown enormously. Simply because the "risk/reward" balance of texting/social networking is skewed heavily onto the "reward" side of the equation. Flirting in real life (face to face) has inherent risks of embarassment, physical humiliation, and public shame. Flirting by text has none of this. Worst case - you get an insulting text back (which you delete) or you get no response.

It is training to cheat, in the case of an EA. How many times have we all read stories of a WS texting the OM/OW THOUSANDS of times in a month? What normally thinking person does this? 

They've trained themselves into the Affair fog.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Fantasy communication may result in less EA gone PA than in person affairs but the opportunity pool is vast for people to connect emotionally with. All ages and genders can portray themselves any way they want to. The disconnect from your reality partner is just as real.

My wife watched a Dr Phil episode last week (maybe two weeks ago) where this guy had 26 online affairs. Except he was a woman pretending to be a man. And some of these girls were seriously in love.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Yeah, we are just getting a clue what the impact of social media and texting are having on your brains... and its alarming. Very alarming.

Here's a funny and relavent question....

Has anyone felt thier phone vibrate in their pocket, only to find that the phone wasn't even in there?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Yeah, we are just getting a clue what the impact of social media and texting are having on your brains... and its alarming. Very alarming.


I don't find it alarming. Our minds don't do well with virtual yet even though our intellect knows better. Consider how easily we form connections to characters on TV. The cast of friends seemed like real friends to milions. Makes sense because you see them regularly and always pleasant fun atmosphere. Before virtual reality these were feelings that only happened around real friends.


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## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Fantasy communication may result in less EA gone PA than in person affairs but the opportunity pool is vast for people to connect emotionally with. All ages and genders can portray themselves any way they want to. The disconnect from your reality partner is just as real.
> 
> My wife watched a Dr Phil episode last week (maybe two weeks ago) where this guy had 26 online affairs. Except he was a woman pretending to be a man. And some of these girls were seriously in love.


For a couple months I've been following a NSFW Tumblr blog run by an attorney (maybe, right?) who focuses on his love of giving oral sex, while stating all kinds of wonderful things about having been with only one girl that broke his heart, that he is really picky in partners, spending time with family, etc. His responses to follower's queries are simply _perfect_ for romantically inclined women that crave physicality. He has hundreds of female followers just dying to meet him in person, seeking any clue they can about his identity, sending submissions, telling him he's their perfect man- all when they haven't seen the guy or even shared a conversation. It's really quite fascinating to follow. 

This thread is great. Scary too.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Here's a funny and relavent question....
> 
> Has anyone felt thier phone vibrate in their pocket, only to find that the phone wasn't even in there?



I have gone so far as to reach into my pocket, then the other pocket before I realize I'm not carrying my phone. And when I do have my phone, I have a bad habit of pulling it out to check it even when it hasn't vibrated. And I don't text very much and don't have FB or any other social media, except LinkedIn (as a matter of fact, I am on a limited plan - never really texted until my kids started staying at my STBXW's on a regular basis).

My wife, would have her phone at the table, in a restaurant, even in a movie theatre. I only objected when our kids were littler and we'd be doing something (eg - at the zoo), and my wife would be walking along, texting instead of being "with" the kids (body and spirit).

If only I knew what I know now.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

DrMathias said:


> For a couple months I've been following a NSFW Tumblr blog run by an attorney (maybe, right?) who focuses on his love of giving oral sex, while stating all kinds of wonderful things about having been with only one girl that broke his heart, that he is really picky in partners, spending time with family, etc. His responses to follower's queries are simply _perfect_ for romantically inclined women that crave physicality. He has hundreds of female followers just dying to meet him in person, seeking any clue they can about his identity, sending submissions, telling him he's their perfect man- all when they haven't seen the guy or even shared a conversation. It's really quite fascinating to follow.
> 
> This thread is great. Scary too.


Link?


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Fantasy communication may result in less EA gone PA than in person affairs but the opportunity pool is vast for people to connect emotionally with. All ages and genders can portray themselves any way they want to. The disconnect from your reality partner is just as real.
> 
> My wife watched a Dr Phil episode last week (maybe two weeks ago) where this guy had 26 online affairs. Except he was a woman pretending to be a man. And some of these girls were seriously in love.


That's the thing. Texts or emails or social networking allows you to imagine only what you want to imagine about the person writing you the text. 

But I disagree that fantasy communication may result in less EA gone PA simply because I do not believe in a distinct difference between an EA and a PA. An EA to me is just an affair that has not YET gone physical. Given time - it will, given the right set of circumstances (mainly opportunity).


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

"It is training to cheat, in the case of an EA. How many times have we all read stories of a WS texting the OM/OW THOUSANDS of times in a month? What normally thinking person does this" 

So true- its addicting and that is also why you see the spouse who is suddenly babysitting their phone like it's a crack pipe. They anxiously await that hit but I also think there is another psychological motivation behind it. 

Eventually that frequency of texting/chatting would die down if in normal conditions but because there is a _blockage_ (already committed to someone else)it actually perpetrates it. 

Think about it... if in a normal dating relationship your new friend suddenly started texting you 50 times in a day and saying they loved you after 10 days you would run screaming the other way shouting "stalker"........but because there is a triangle those "overly attached person" red flags go ignored. 

Affairs of all types have to always have the triangle element. It can't exist and it actually fuels it. The faithful partner is the safety net much like when a toddler teeters away from parents but frequently looks back for security. 

Of course that's why the 180 is encouraged because it destabilizes that triangle. 

Then of course you throw in a past history, like a old school friend on Facebook and you can actually mingle your shared history with the addiction for a ****tail of infidelity just waiting to go off.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Back in 1998 or so...after my divorce I found a online divorce support group. Other young people going through the same things. After a few months, I really clicked with one divorced guy on there. It was a great connection. Decided to meet for coffee and it bombed. 

He looked exactly like his pictures, everything he said about himself was true but there was zero chemistry on my end. On paper he was fantastic but it just didn't translate into real life. The deal breaker was the way his hands were. There was nothing wrong with them except they just didn't appeal to me. Huge hands, but he used them a lot in his conversations and that was it. 

Something so insignificant in the big picture....but I couldn't get past that.

That's why people who have already met IRL and then start a text/chat relationship are the most potent because they've already established a physical attraction.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

daggeredheart said:


> "It is training to cheat, in the case of an EA. How many times have we all read stories of a WS texting the OM/OW THOUSANDS of times in a month? What normally thinking person does this"


If I sat and talked to my wife for an hour, and each remark took on average 10 seconds, we are going to have 360 remarks in the conversation.

If I carry that on by IM or text, then that is 360 messages. It only takes three hours of that and you are over the thousand. Three hours a month is not a lot of time to spend with a good friend.

My best friend besides my wife is female and lives overseas. We mostly talk via IM or email instead of Facetime or Skype so that our spouses can check up on what we are saying if they choose to. We would exchange thousands of messages a month. Probably tens of thousands.

This is the positive side of this stuff. If she lived in the next street instead of overseas, it would be much riskier to have such a friendship. We use the technology in ways that make us accountable.

The technology is not inherently evil. It is what you do with it that matters.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

daggeredheart said:


> That's why people who have already met IRL and then start a text/chat relationship are the most potent because they've already established a physical attraction.


Great point. I think when an EA is established, the "connection" allows the WS and AP to overlook some problems. But you're right, if there is already a physical attraction, then the EA really has potency. 

In my STBXW's case, she had golfed in an mixed event where the OM was a participant (he was a player, in more than just golf). They didn't know each other at all. Even though my STBXW was 13 years older, she is very good looking, so I'm sure the attraction was mutual, especially since they were both good golfers (both married too). So that gave their eventual texting communication extra potency. I'm sure my wife's fantasies were out of control after the first texting exchange. And as I posted before, she would leave her office and her busy job to text the guy from her health club computers. That's how powerful the fog was.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Wazza said:


> The technology is not inherently evil. It is what you do with it that matters.



Yes, of course not. The technology just facilitates the behaviour.

From the outset, I wanted to make sure to be clear that I believe that the person who allows texting to "train" them to cheat MUST have a propensity to cheat in their personality to begin with. It is not the technology's fault - the technology just allows the marginal personality defects to express themselves.

But I also believe that many people who have a propensity to cheat - wouldn't in the absence of texting/social media. They might be too shy, or simply not the type to go to the trouble of meeting in person. So texting gives them a low risk way to "test the waters". And once they get that first positive response, their innate personality defect (the propensity to cheat) takes over and allows them to become addicted to the fantasy of an EA.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Another point...the average consumer of social media/texting has no clue about this internal reward system. Just like how most new online porn users have no idea how it will actually rewire their brain. Heck computer usage rewires our brain. We are changed from being online. 

Cedar- you are right...it's beyond powerful....it's scary powerful.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

daggeredheart said:


> That's why people who have already met IRL and then start a text/chat relationship are the most potent because they've already established a physical attraction.


This is for sure true. No way I'd have gone from hello to ILY with a complete stranger in 10 days. I really think it was the combination of an old flame and cyber environment. I don't think I'd have fallen into an EA with a stranger online and I don't think I'd have fallen into an affair with the OW had we bumped into each other at the mall. 

A preexisting connection and the cyber world can be a deadly combination, especially if someone isn't hyper aware when they take that first step. Ironically enough I originally joined facebook to keep an eye on who my wife was friends with - I knew the potential was there - I just had no idea how fast and how powerful it could be and I certainly never expected to step in the bear trap myself.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

daggeredheart said:


> Cedar- you are right...it's beyond powerful....it's scary powerful.



LOL - and here I am, having spent a couple hours on this site without even thinking about it!! 

Gotta go!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> Yes, of course not. The technology just facilitates the behaviour.
> 
> From the outset, I wanted to make sure to be clear that I believe that the person who allows texting to "train" them to cheat MUST have a propensity to cheat in their personality to begin with. It is not the technology's fault - the technology just allows the marginal personality defects to express themselves.
> 
> But I also believe that many people who have a propensity to cheat - wouldn't in the absence of texting/social media. They might be too shy, or simply not the type to go to the trouble of meeting in person. So texting gives them a low risk way to "test the waters". And once they get that first positive response, their innate personality defect (the propensity to cheat) takes over and allows them to become addicted to the fantasy of an EA.


I think everyone has SOME potential to cheat. Some more than others.

That is where your thread is so important. Awareness of the danger makes it easier to not succumb.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

I knew the potential was there - I just had no idea how fast and how powerful it could be and I certainly never expected to step in the bear trap myself. 

<----- think that proves the point that the average user isn't prepared for how the net can wrap you in it's arms and pull you down. Even if you are aware of potential dangers. Like driving, we all know we can have accident, we just don't expect it will happen.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Has anyone felt thier phone vibrate in their pocket, only to find that the phone wasn't even in there?


I'm trying to find the exact study / articile I read which addresses specifically this... I couldn't find it so I'll put together some info which should give you the gist. The specific study I saw associated this phenomenon to a form of brain damage.. The same type of damage that drug addicts show... I'll keep looking for it.

in the mean time...

In a nutshell, its been proven that FB'ing, texting, Skpe'ing, etc... tap into the same associative learning pathways in the brain that make other compulsive behaviors — like gambling, drugs, (and affairs) — so addictive. As with addiction to drugs or cigarettes or food, the chemical driver of this process is the feel-good neurotransmitter dopamine. 

That creates a Dopamine loop — With the internet, facebook, and texting you now have almost instant gratification of your desire to seek. Dopamine starts you seeking, then you get rewarded for the seeking which makes you seek more. It becomes harder and harder to stop looking at email, stop texting, or stop checking your cell phone to see if you have a message or a new text.

That's where the Pavlovian cues come from— The dopamine system is especially sensitive to "cues" that a reward is coming. Reward antipication. Interestingly brain scan research shows that the brain has more activity when people are anticipating a reward than getting one.

If there is a small, specific cue that signifies that something is going to happen, that sets off our dopamine system. So when there is a sound or vibration when a text message or email arrives... The loop continues...

Do you think your subconscience mind is creating these phantom vibrations as a cue to induce the anticiption?

I didn't have time to read this whole thread so apologies if I parroted whats already been said but I thought it was interesting to think about and read some of this stuff. It does go right along with some of what Ive read this thread.

*edited to add*... SOmeone said they aren't alarmed by whats now coming out about the effects of constant internet & texting on someone's brain... Stuides are showing that the damage associated with these things are exactly the same as the damage caused by prolonged drug use. I think that's alarming. Seeing what this is doing to the frontal contex of the brain is serious and permanent stuff. This damage is linked to severe depressions, anxirty and all sorts of emotional and mental disorders


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I'm trying to find the exact study / articile I read which addresses specifically this... I couldn't find it so I'll put together some info which should give you the gist. The specific study I saw associated this phenomenon to a form of brain damage.. The same type of damage that drug addicts show... I'll keep looking for it.
> 
> in the mean time...
> 
> ...


So now that you are aware of this are you spending less time using chat, texting, social networking and forums?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I'm trying to find the exact study / articile I read which addresses specifically this... I couldn't find it so I'll put together some info which should give you the gist. The specific study I saw associated this phenomenon to a form of brain damage.. The same type of damage that drug addicts show... I'll keep looking for it.
> 
> in the mean time...
> 
> ...


Does in-person communication generate dopamine highs?


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Does in-person communication generate dopamine highs?


I'm sure it does, especially when there is an attraction. The difference is, many people would not initiate a face to face with somebody they do not know. Texting/social networking opens up the field in a relatively risk free way. 

Also the texts would give a little shot of dopamine for every response, whereas a conversation in person may generate a single shot, augmented by more only if the conversation stays stimulating.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> I'm sure it does, especially when there is an attraction. The difference is, many people would not initiate a face to face with somebody they do not know. Texting/social networking opens up the field in a relatively risk free way.
> 
> Also the texts would give a little shot of dopamine for every response, whereas a conversation in person may generate a single shot, augmented by more only if the conversation stays stimulating.


I agree about the risk free aspect.


As far as dopamine goes, well I suspect that a boring text conversation does less for dopamine than an interesting one, same as face to face.

Online does make it easier to share an interest with people around the world.

Out of curiosity, I wants back and looked. Admittedly it was a busy week, but between my online friend, my wife and I there were about 100 emails, just over 1,000 instant messages and a three and a half hour web conversation via FaceTime (it was a virtual dinner party between the two couples). I have to admit, the numbers surprised me. 

A lot of the emails really function as IMs, sent at times we are not all available. My wife is copied on almost all the emails, and has access to read the ones she is not copied on if she wishes.

I definitely find having my wife directly involved the conversation changes how I think about it. But I must be almost passed out from dopamine overdose!!!


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Enchanted said:


> So now that you are aware of this are you spending less time using chat, texting, social networking and forums?


Lol. No. Not at all.

But I'm also not having illicit affairs which stimulate the type of dopamine benders that would twist my morals, ethics, and undoubtably my brain. Lol. 

My brain is plenty twisted enough. Posting on TAM, emailing clients, texting my buddies and flirting with the occasional chick that contacts me are the least of my mental health concerns. LMAO.

I also think a beer or six is ok... But funneling a 55 gallon barrel of vodka might mess a brother up. Lmao.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Wazza: You're comparing an open conversation between couples with a covert, secret, "daring" text exchange between two people who don't really know each other.

Totally different. Imagine that you had the same conversations and your wife and her husband did not know anything about it and you and the other woman had to keep it a secret. 

A little more exciting?

ETA - just to be clear. It is not the technology's fault. The technology just enables more people to act out their secret desires/fantasies. By making it easier and removing the risk of face to face rejection/humiliation, people who were unhappy and thought about cheating but didn't are now able to test the waters with no real effort. And the rewards (ie. responses to their illicit texts) creates the reward system.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Wazza said:


> Does in-person communication generate dopamine highs?


Yes, to some degree but so does everything including eating lunch.. We are talking about fog inducing extremes here. Specifically the unparrelled, mind twisting dopa-atomic bomb an online or text based affair drops on your melon.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> Wazza: You're comparing an open conversation between couples with a covert, secret, "daring" text exchange between two people who don't really know each other.
> 
> Totally different. Imagine that you had the same conversations and your wife and her husband did not know anything about it and you and the other woman had to keep it a secret.
> 
> ...


My central question is whether being online is inherently different from face to face.

For example secrecy is an issue in either case, I think. So is dopamine high when your loved one contacts you. Yet both of these have been cited in this thread as features of online relationships. I am simply pointing out that they are also factors in "real" relationships.

Still digesting the notion that it is easier to test the waters online.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Yes, to some degree but so does everything including eating lunch.. We are talking about fog inducing extremes here. Specifically the unparrelled, mind twisting dopa-atomic bomb an online or text based affair drops on your melon.


How is it quantifiably worse than lunchtime hookups in the storeroom at work? That is my question. Did the studies you were going to reference quantify how much more dopamine is released online?


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Wazza said:


> How is it quantifiably worse than lunchtime hookups in the storeroom at work? That is my question. Did the studies you were going to reference quantify how much more dopamine is released online?


It may not be worse in terms of the dopamine effect. The issue is that it is far easier and less trouble to hook up on-line. And the hookups are faster and the exchanges more plentiful in a given period (eg - each text exchange is like a single meeting in person - yet a person may have dozens of these single meetings in a single day, if conducted on-line - throughout the day, 24/7). How many people have lunchtime hookups in the storeroom at work vs how many are texting and flirting on-line? I suspect that one far outweighs the other. 

If not for the availability and ease of texting/social media, many would-be cheaters would not bother, in my opinion, because many would be too scared/shy/lazy, etc. 

And the behaviour is addictive, like gambling, or a drug addiction - which is why it goes on 24/7. It becomes an intrusive behaviour. It allows you to become addicted to your chat buddy before you even know what they look like, or before you even know them very well in person.

Question: Would you be as close friends with the other couple if not for immediacy of texting/skype? Do you write and send letters by snail mail? If not, is it because the immediacy of the electronic exchanges are more satisfying to you? Easier? What is it that caused you to exchange 1000 IM's as a couple? Was it fun? Addictive? What if you were told to cut your IM's to a 2 or 3 a month and no skype - could you do this? And if you could, would you and still be able to maintain the same level of friendship? Now imagine your friendship was instead a burgeoning affair and imagine what your answers would be.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> Yes, of course not. The technology just facilitates the behaviour.


I don't think it's that simple. The behavior seems innocent until it's not. It's a mental trap and people don't respect that it's damaging. Our intellect tells us it's not a problem but our minds become emotionally involved when that was NEVER the intent and the behavior would have been avoided if it were thought to be a risk.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> I don't think it's that simple. The behavior seems innocent until it's not. It's a mental trap and people don't respect that it's damaging. Our intellect tells us it's not a problem but our minds become emotionally involved when that was NEVER the intent and the behavior would have been avoided if it were thought to be a risk.


I guess what I should have said is that the technology facilitates the behaviour. But in so doing, it compresses and accelerates the behaviour to speeds which cause addictive patterns to develop and for destructive behaviour patterns to emerge far more readily than in the past when illicit hookups were all done face to face.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Wazza said:


> How is it quantifiably worse than lunchtime hookups in the storeroom at work? That is my question. Did the studies you were going to reference quantify how much more dopamine is released online?


Sorry for power posting. My wife REALLY wanted me off the computer for a bit. 

I think they are similar except that virtual communication seems to disarming and innocent and harmless. It's easy to get an uncomfortable feeling when someone is out of bounds in reality like at lunch or something. This is not the case with virtual since everyone seems so far away and harmless.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> It may not be worse in terms of the dopamine effect. The issue is that it is far easier and less trouble to hook up on-line. And the hookups are faster and the exchanges more plentiful in a given period (eg - each text exchange is like a single meeting in person - yet a person may have dozens of these single meetings in a single day, if conducted on-line - throughout the day, 24/7). How many people have lunchtime hookups in the storeroom at work vs how many are texting and flirting on-line? I suspect that one far outweighs the other.
> 
> If not for the availability and ease of texting/social media, many would-be cheaters would not bother, in my opinion, because many would be too scared/shy/lazy, etc.
> 
> ...


The ease with which you can achieve constant communication creates opportunities for affairs, I agree. But again, I turn that around. Before I would work long hours with my work colleagues and spend less time with my wife. Social media enables me to be more linked to my wife, which is nice.

I use social media for work a lot, have for years..so maybe I am just used to it. But the idea of forming close relationships with people I have never met in person is just what I do. And for me the moment when I meet them is the amazing moment.

As for my friends...if they lived next door and we hung out all the time we would be closer but yes, the friendship can be much closer than snail mail would allow. I don't know that I feel all that addicted to the medium...I feel addicted to the relationships. If I wanted constant illicit communication, it is certainly much easier to hide it now. And much more damaging when it comes out. I never had to read my wife's conversations with hr affair partner, since the internet was not around then, thank goodness! I would find that hard to take, I think.

I probably seem like I am arguing, and that isn't my intention. Just trying to explore your ideas. They genuinely interest me.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Wazza - no problem - I think it's good to have as much input and ideas as possible. This subject interests me too, obviously!


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

Wazza said:


> My central question is whether being online is inherently different from face to face.
> 
> For example secrecy is an issue in either case, I think. So is dopamine high when your loved one contacts you. Yet both of these have been cited in this thread as features of online relationships. I am simply pointing out that they are also factors in "real" relationships.
> 
> Still digesting the notion that it is easier to test the waters online.


The high might be the strongest when it's between two strangers who swap pictures. It gives the imagination enough fire to create perfect romantic scenarios. Then the "role players" begin to adapt to the fantasy and weave stories to intrigue the other so the high continues.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Wazza said:


> How is it quantifiably worse than lunchtime hookups in the storeroom at work? That is my question. Did the studies you were going to reference quantify how much more dopamine is released online?


I'm assuming you have never been involved in an 'eAffair' or 'virtual relationship' ?


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> I'm sure it does, especially when there is an attraction. The difference is, many people would not initiate a face to face with somebody they do not know. Texting/social networking opens up the field in a relatively risk free way.
> 
> Also the texts would give a little shot of dopamine for every response, whereas a conversation in person may generate a single shot, augmented by more only if the conversation stays stimulating.


Speaking for my WS who spent 10hrs a day- 5 days a wk with AP I can tell you w/o a doubt that in person gives a dopamine high just the same! Otherwise, he'd not have spent all that time in her office when he was supposed to be at home, eh?

But there is most definately something to the electronic communication. He camped on email and text waiting for her in spite of the fact that she was literally 10 ft from him!?!?!?! So I think there is something to the anticipation of reading their words for some reason.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

an online or text based relationship does not have the governors or that pesky reality real relationships have... it's only limited by your own imagination and when left to fill in the blanks your mind will go haywire painting unicorns and rainbows... perhaps you don't like unicorns and rainbows? prefer to fill in the blanks with hot monkey love? No problem... Whatever you want. 

Your brain is being given a blank canvas, and believe me your AP will be all to willing to help you paint it anyway you want, he/she can be anything you want them to be and you will be anything they want you to be... better yet, you can be everything YOU want you to be... and so will they. That's a hell of a feeling, I think frued called it self actualization... Quite intoxicating, and highly addictive.

It's only limited by your own imagination and with buckets of brain drugs and feel good juice coarsing through you you'll both have plenty of motivation to push the limits well beyond anything you thought possible... Before you know it your flying at 50,000 feet and you do not want to come down. 

But eventually you will, It won't be pretty when the wings finally come off.. if your married, your entire life and everyone in it... hit the ground with a horrible thud.


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> This is for sure true. No way I'd have gone from hello to ILY with a complete stranger in 10 days. I really think it was the combination of an old flame and cyber environment. I don't think I'd have fallen into an EA with a stranger online and I don't think I'd have fallen into an affair with the OW had we bumped into each other at the mall.
> 
> A preexisting connection and the cyber world can be a deadly combination, especially if someone isn't hyper aware when they take that first step. Ironically enough I originally joined facebook to keep an eye on who my wife was friends with - I knew the potential was there - I just had no idea how fast and how powerful it could be and I certainly never expected to step in the bear trap myself.


This should be required reading for anyone THINKING about looking up an old flame on FB. Eveything you wrote here is exactly how it is. Frightening that with the push of a button ( yes, to friend request) your whole life can change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

Enchanted said:


> That's true. You might be the best wife in the world but you cannot be a whole support system. However, it's easy to go online and make friends and those friends don't make any demands of you. The friendship is easy, gives the user a lot of control and the instant satisfaction is pleasing.


Absolutely. My H described the OW in his online EA initially as " always cheerful, never judgmental, always listened..." 
Here's a funny incident that happened, that sort if validates this whole idea of falling for someone in fantasy land- one time the OW accidentally posted a picture of herself that showed her in her "real life" look , and I guess it bordered on a cross between Elsa Lanchester ( for those of you not old enough - bride of Frankenstein ) and a horse. My H casually mentioned it very recently ( a year past d day) but he recalled that moment seeing the real her and felt in retrospect, the "magic" sort of disappear. The OW took about 8 minutes to remove the photo by the way... Back to her glamour shots and her "exciting" life photos...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> an online or text based relationship does not have the governors or that pesky reality real relationships have... it's only limited by your own imagination and when left to fill in the blanks your mind will go haywire painting unicorns and rainbows... perhaps you don't like unicorns and rainbows? prefer to fill in the blanks with hot monkey love? No problem... Whatever you want.
> 
> Your brain is being given a blank canvas, and believe me your AP will be all to willing to help you paint it anyway you want, he/she can be anything you want them to be and you will be anything they want you to be... better yet, you can be everything YOU want you to be... and so will they. That's a hell of a feeling, I think frued called it self actualization... Quite intoxicating, and highly addictive.
> 
> ...


Very well written and the absolute truth. Particularly true is how you like who you become, the image you've created for the AP. it just feeds on itself, doesn't it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> Speaking for my WS who spent 10hrs a day- 5 days a wk with AP I can tell you w/o a doubt that in person gives a dopamine high just the same! Otherwise, he'd not have spent all that time in her office when he was supposed to be at home, eh?
> 
> But there is most definately something to the electronic communication. He camped on email and text waiting for her in spite of the fact that she was literally 10 ft from him!?!?!?! So I think there is something to the anticipation of reading their words for some reason.


Do yo think also part of the thrill or attachment might be fueled by being able to "save" e mails and texts and read them over and over? You might forget the context of a face to face conversation, but you can pull up an email and keep getting a fix...(and hi CTU, I sent you a pm a week or so ago but not sure I did it right, but thank you again for your invaluable help.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

brokenhearted2 said:


> Back to her glamour shots and her "exciting" life photos...


My wife's last affair started on FB with an old college BF that contacted her. She had been serially cheating for years and it was obvious that she was excited about "re-connecting". 

Your quote "Back to her glamour shots" made me think back to her FB pictures. When she started cheating with him she "updated" her photos. Basically she removed all pictures that showed me, only showed grown pictures of the children, and most striking... only posted pictures of herself looking thin, pretty, and athletic. If I was in the original picture... she just cropped me out. 

It's like she just divorced me on FB. I looked at her FB page and no where was my name even mentioned, although her status was still married.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I'm assuming you have never been involved in an 'eAffair' or 'virtual relationship' ?


Lots of virtual relationships going back many years, but none of them romantic.

A near miss with an office colleague I worked closely with, shortly after my wife had an affair. Following tat I adopted a rule that my wife knows about every woman I interact with closely, and that heads things off at the pass with inappropriate feelings.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

When my STBXW first met the OM - it was golfing. She participated in a series of tournaments and part of it involved an on-line profile for everyone in the group participating. She had me send her one of hers (and my) favourite shots of her for her profile - a solo picture of her in a bright T-shirt - she looked great. Not a picture of her golfing. I never thought of it at the time and because I loved the picture, I didn't even think twice. But she was already putting her best face forward for the OM.


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

RWB said:


> My wife's last affair started on FB with an old college BF that contacted her. She had been serially cheating for years and it was obvious that she was excited about "re-connecting".
> 
> Your quote "Back to her glamour shots" made me think back to her FB pictures. When she started cheating with him she "updated" her photos. Basically she removed all pictures that showed me, only showed grown pictures of the children, and most striking... only posted pictures of herself looking thin, pretty, and athletic. If I was in the original picture... she just cropped me out.
> 
> It's like she just divorced me on FB. I looked at her FB page and no where was my name even mentioned, although her status was still married.


I wonder if she was even "aware" of what she was doing - essentially creating a second life. She had to know that you looked at her page?! So sorry!
Clearly the other "benefit" of a cyber affair is being able to portray yourself in any light you want. Once you hit your 30's 40', etc... You might have wished you'd done some things differently. FB allows you to create the " you" you always wanted to be and in my H case, the OW had clearly convinced herself that my H was her intended mate. She couldn't have him in the next room, but the cyber world allowed her to pretend he was - she actually sent him a photo of her feet with two different shoes on, asking him which pair he liked best on her for her night out on the town. Mind you she has (had?) a H of her own probably sitting nearby. This snippet from my H turned my hard boiled anger into gales of laughter!!!! First time I had laughed in 9 months! Asking her cyber Man to choose her shoes!!!! But again, the cyber world is hard to beat I guess!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

OPver the the 3 methods of electronic messaging that my fiance and his EA used ie, FB wall and PMs; e-mailing and texting; it was the text messages where she was the most *****y with my fiance, calling him ******* and sending sarcastic messages. Even regarding the same activity that they planned to attend together, in e-mail, she came across as needy, "you sure you're going to be there"..... whereas by text, when he's trying to figure out where the venue was, she's downright *****y about it.

Also the most flagrant details, which of course justified my snooping and my stance that it was not "just a friendship" turned up by text not by the other methods.

It makes me wonder why texting seems to produce the most poignant messages..... especially when both of them could access all three of these methods on their handhelds.


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

brokenhearted2 said:


> I wonder if she was even "aware" of what she was doing - essentially creating a second life. She had to know that you looked at her page?! So sorry!
> Clearly the other "benefit" of a cyber affair is being able to portray yourself in any light you want. Once you hit your 30's 40', etc... You might have wished you'd done some things differently. FB allows you to create the " you" you always wanted to be and in my H case, the OW had clearly convinced herself that my H was her intended mate. She couldn't have him in the next room, but the cyber world allowed her to pretend he was - she actually sent him a photo of her feet with two different shoes on, asking him which pair he liked best on her for her night out on the town. Mind you she has (had?) a H of her own probably sitting nearby. This snippet from my H turned my hard boiled anger into gales of laughter!!!! First time I had laughed in 9 months! Asking her cyber Man to choose her shoes!!!! But again, the cyber world is hard to beat I guess!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There's actually a virtual world called "Second Life."


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

brokenhearted2 said:


> Do yo think also part of the thrill or attachment might be fueled by being able to "save" e mails and texts and read them over and over? You might forget the context of a face to face conversation, but you can pull up an email and keep getting a fix...(and hi CTU, I sent you a pm a week or so ago but not sure I did it right, but thank you again for your invaluable help.)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep. Otherwise my very very intelligent H would have hit the damned 'delete' button instead of archiving EVERY email she sent him. Im sure he had reread some of them bc when I put some of them in front of him he knew the context of the email and what was going on that day! For example she had told him she was bored while waiting for a flight so he entertained her for hours( while ignoring my texts)until her flight was ready. Emailing, texting and talking on the phone. Then he "was running behind" at work and was late coming home.....imagine that! So when I produced those particular emails he could practically recite them. Not bad for a guy who had an unbelieveable case of "IDR" later.....

SO, yeah I think having it in writing is like a serial killer revistiing the body so to speak. They get the high from the "kill" all over again. Revisiting the "scene of the crime" if you will. Sickening, eh?

Try resending that PM. I havent gotten anything from you in a month or so.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> SO, yeah I think having it in writing is like a serial killer revistiing the body so to speak. They get the high from the "kill" all over again. Revisiting the "scene of the crime" if you will. Sickening, eh?



Morbid, but I think you are absolutely correct. Keeping the texts is like keeping some trophy or souvenir. Like keeping a clipping of their "crime". 

My STBXW never kept anything - would always delete. But she has an awesome memory - almost photographic for certain subjects (paradoxically, she is able to forget anything on demand too - the beauty of compartmentalization) - so just a trigger would be enough for her to remember. Even after her EA/PA was over - she would open up her secret gmail account (where the OM was the only contact). Not to send anything - I think just to re-live the experiences or to see if HE sent anything. This was all before I confronted her - then she deleted the account. Before we separated (after our false R), I caught her googling his name. The POSOM is now remarried (with a newborn) - he cheated on his current wife with MY wife when he was engaged to his current wife. But just the act of regularly googling his name was enough to give my wife a shot of brain chemicals which continue to keep her in the fog of her fantasy world.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> SO, yeah I think having it in writing is like a serial killer revistiing the body so to speak. They get the high from the "kill" all over again. Revisiting the "scene of the crime" if you will. Sickening, eh?


This is also definitely true and key to why no contact has to include no cyber stalking or revisiting old messages. It's a way of keeping it alive, the attachment in this arena can survive on so very little. All it takes is reading over the same emails over and over and pining for the AP to keep it going.

It was only my survival instinct that kept me from saving everything.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> Morbid, but I think you are absolutely correct. Keeping the texts is like keeping some trophy or souvenir. Like keeping a clipping of their "crime".
> 
> My STBXW never kept anything - would always delete. But she has an awesome memory - almost photographic for certain subjects (paradoxically, she is able to forget anything on demand too - the beauty of compartmentalization) - so just a trigger would be enough for her to remember. Even after her EA/PA was over - she would open up her secret gmail account (where the OM was the only contact). Not to send anything - I think just to re-live the experiences or to see if HE sent anything. This was all before I confronted her - then she deleted the account. Before we separated (after our false R), I caught her googling his name. The POSOM is now remarried (with a newborn) - he cheated on his current wife with MY wife when he was engaged to his current wife. But just the act of regularly googling his name was enough to give my wife a shot of brain chemicals which continue to keep her in the fog of her fantasy world.


My H was the same. He worked with her and merely seeing her signature on a report was a "hit". UFB. Like an adolecent in jr high school. All they needed were some pimples and a backpack....


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> This is also definitely true and key to why no contact has to include no cyber stalking or revisiting old messages. It's a way of keeping it alive, the attachment in this arena can survive on so very little. All it takes is reading over the same emails over and over and pining for the AP to keep it going.
> 
> It was only my survival instinct that kept me from saving everything.


Well he considered himself 'safe' from me finding it bc it was his work laptop and email........Took me for a chump too dumb to be able to get to it if he archived it on the laptop at work. Its like he didnt know me at all....


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

RWB said:


> It's like she just divorced me on FB. I looked at her FB page and no where was my name even mentioned, although her status was still married.



At least in your case, RWB, she still used the correct terminology of still being *"married."*

Now my STBXW had her FB marital status officially listed as *"divorced," *from the time that she actually put me out of the home in order to start our separation, up until just recently, where it is listed as* "no status"!*


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Talking about pictures and keeping electronic trophies. I discovered all the photos my spouse sent her, all g rated but they were dreadful. They made him look 20 pounds heavier and totally dorky. In that moment I actually felt sorry for him because I knew there was no way a hot 24 year old would ever go for him in real life. She of course put her best Facebook shots up except she did have two that showed the real her and it wasn't attractive either. She also sent many photos to the chat room full of lonely men asking them to rate her outfits like am i hot or not.....so obvious. It was all a trick and pony show. 

When dday happened, he refused to delete the 5 or so pictures she sent to him. He put them on his server. I don't know if he ever dredges them up, but I can see how it would keep the flame alive if he does. 

I think there is a part of him that hangs onto those because he can't bear to feel so stupid that it was a huge charade. He needs her to be real because the thought that he almost lost his family and standing with everyone over anything less is beyond embarrassing. Who wants to tell the world that you want to run away with someone you have never met?

I admit that I have kept the nc letter he wrote and her response and the apology letter he wrote to me. I don't re read them as much. I think I used to torture myself with them when I felt myself becoming numb to it all. So in my way that's hanging on to a trophy of sorts.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

ChangingMe said:


> I would agree as well. My A started with FB messages. At first they were only every couple of weeks, and it really would have been no big deal -but then it became a big deal. Frequency increased, personal details increased, then it moved to texting. I agree with the depersonalizing and fantasy aspect. My A was with someone that we knew, and it's odd, because early on it was weird to be around him in person. It felt more comfortable over the computer screen or the phone; it seemed less real and easier to rationalize. By the time things got physical though, like sigma said, I was already in quite deep and had convinced myself that I had feelings for this person.
> 
> As far as the solution, I know that I personally don't ever need to be messaging or texting any man that is not my husband. I don't want to open any door that can lead to anything inappropriate. I feel I have better boundaries now and am more aware of potential problems, but I don't even want to put myself in a position where I let my guard down. I have a husband; I don't need any type of friendship with another man.


I'm with you. I have no reason to text, fb message or have any friendship with another male aside from family. Honestly after my EA I trust no man that wants so called "friendship" maybe they really only want friendship but I have come to where I don't trust men. Sorry if this offends other men but I have my reasons and boundries. My husband should never have a worry after what I put him through. I just will never put myself in that position. There was a guy on TAM that was pming me about advice about his wife and after a while the convo seemed a bit odd and got me very uncomfortable so I had my hubby read the pms and sure enough he agreed that something wasn't right so he nicely asked him to stop pming me and explained that after me just having an EA it wasn't a good idea. The guy understood and it was probably innocent but why take that chance?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kansasguy (Jan 5, 2013)

A married co-worker and I (also married) text each every day at work. What began as about 50 per month became 200, then 800, now it's about 2,000. They're not flirty or sexual texts, just gossip, etc. The physical attraction between us is intense and obvious, but I don't see the harm in texting each other just to make the day go by faster. There's nothing going on.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Kansasguy said:


> A married co-worker and I (also married) text each every day at work. What began as about 50 per month became 200, then 800, now it's about 2,000. They're not flirty or sexual texts, just gossip, etc. The physical attraction between us is intense and obvious, but I don't see the harm in texting each other just to make the day go by faster. There's nothing going on.


Do either of your spouses know about the "nothing going on"? If not, why not? Btw, 2000 texts each month? During work? Say it's 30 secs to type a text and read a response. That's 1000 minutes a month on gossip. It's not a healthy pursuit for your marriage OR your job. 

You are on a dangerous path.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

"The physical attraction between us is intense and obvious, but I don't see the harm in texting each other just to make the day go by faster. There's nothing going on," 

You've just stated that it's intense...it can't go anywhere but up from there. Surprised you can't see it. You stated there is an increase in the numbers of texting. What type of office generates that much gossip??? 

Could you get that same type of gossip from the same gendered coworker? Or is the fact that there is sexual tension fueling it?


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Kansasguy said:


> A married co-worker and I (also married) text each every day at work. What began as about 50 per month became 200, then 800, now it's about 2,000. They're not flirty or sexual texts, just gossip, etc. The physical attraction between us is intense and obvious, but I don't see the harm in texting each other just to make the day go by faster. There's nothing going on.


I believe if you look up the definition of emotional affair ..what you just said would be the definition
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Cybercheating can also be written off as fantasy or role play or not really real world cheating, too. In my opinion, cheating is interactive, so looking at porn wouldn't be (because it's static), but webcam girls would be. Unfortunately, as tolerance builds, behavior escalates. 

I do think that technology makes cheating easier, but the fault or problem lies within the person who gives in to the temptation, not with the tech. People have to learn how to have integrity and how to be honest -- not just cheaters, but also people who are not communicative about their problems.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Kansasguy said:


> A married co-worker and I (also married) text each every day at work. What began as about 50 per month became 200, then 800, now it's about 2,000. They're not flirty or sexual texts, just gossip, etc. The physical attraction between us is intense and obvious, but I don't see the harm in texting each other just to make the day go by faster. There's nothing going on.


Dude you're playing an extremely dangerous game and dancing on a very slippery slope. Take it from someone who fell down it. You can't put that much energy into another person, especially a member of the opposite sex, and be giving everything you have to your spouse. You just can't. You admitted it was intense, you admitted it the attraction was obvious, and you're posting on an infidelity board. 

IMO even you don't believe it's totally innocent or that there is NOTHING going on. 

Reign it in man. Fast. Or read up on the path of disaster you're on.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Kansasguy has been doing a good job training himself to cheat. 


....And he doesn't realize it.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> Kansasguy has been doing a good job training himself to cheat.
> 
> 
> ....And he doesn't realize it.


*"The physical attraction between us is intense and obvious"*,

I beg to differ. I think he does realize it.....As Sigma said he's posting on an infidelity board. And He posted the above. Intense physical attraction coupled with heavy duty flirting/texing/attention is absolutely the makings of an emotional/physical affair. 2000 texts a month!!!! I'd bet alot of people who ARE ACTUALLY admittedly actively engaging in an affair arent sending 2000 texts a month! Thats 67 texts a day everyday! My h was sending 50-60 emails a day everyday- it WAS an affair and so is this. 

Does your wife know? Does her H know? If nothing is going on- tell your wife about "nothing". Better yet- here's a test....take 3 days and do NOT text at all. See if you can do it. Bet you cant.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Kansasguy said:


> A married co-worker and I (also married) text each every day at work. What began as about 50 per month became 200, then 800, now it's about 2,000. They're not flirty or sexual texts, just gossip, etc. The physical attraction between us is intense and obvious, but I don't see the harm in texting each other just to make the day go by faster. There's nothing going on.


The danger is that you get used to sharing your feelings with her instead of your wife. It can start to create distance in your marriage, and you could develop feelings for each other. 

The love you feel in an affair can be genuine love, and "breaking up" (ending the affair) hurts like breaking up always does.

Lots of affairs (I suspect most) start out as innocent friendships. It's worth setting some boundaries to avoid heartache.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Kansasguy said:


> A married co-worker and I (also married) text each every day at work. What began as about 50 per month became 200, then 800, now it's about 2,000. They're not flirty or sexual texts, just gossip, etc. The physical attraction between us is intense and obvious, but I don't see the harm in texting each other just to make the day go by faster. There's nothing going on.


Good luck with that KG. Children don't see any harm in a screwdriver in the light socket either.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

I think a lot of people don't realize that cyber EA's are harmful. In fact, they don't think of them as "affairs" - they think of them as just sharing a bunch of harmless texts. I know that my stbxw, STILL does not think her (mainly Gmail chat) EA was a problem. She is ashamed (or so she claims) about lying about it. Then she goes on to say that she isn't really sorry about the texting/sexting and resulting PA... after all: "she was unhappy". Well of course she was "unhappy" when she was devoting all of her energies into developing her EA (which DID morph into a PA).

That's why we couldn't reconcile. She has convinced herself that the EA and resulting PA were inevitable because "she was unhappy". Later (before I even knew about the EA) we went to MC (on my insistence) - but my wife simply lied throughout the MC. She was already too caught up in her gmail texting EA. In hindsight, she was probably texting him as we drove together to MC. She had still only met the guy once - yet he was her "go to" guy to share her problems - and I was left with being "a great Dad" for the kids. She shared more about our marriage with the POSOM than she did with me or in MC. And the POSOM was married at the time himself - with a 3 year old and a 1 year old - and had another girlfriend on the side. He was cheating while he was cheating.

And with my stbxw it started off with a text. Then a reply. Then several texts. Then multiple texts a day. Then leaving her office to chat live using the public computers at her health club - sometimes for a couple hours a day. It was a TRUE addiction. By the time summer rolled around again, she was blind to the fact that the POSOM was playing around - left his wife (and kids) and was living in his Grandfather's basement - and using my stbxw for free golf and eventually free sex. She was blind to the obvious danger signs. 

Again - it was a true addiction, built up one text at at time. It is like her brain has been re-wired.


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## mochamom (Nov 28, 2012)

Wazza said:


> My wife's affair was pre social media (1990). I am sure she and her OM had similar conversations to MrsM. At times I wish I could know exactly what was said, but at other times I am very glad I don't have that. I don't know whether I could deal with seeing the words.
> 
> Maybe it's a threadjack, or maybe not, but the fact that conversations with lovers are preserved in this way is another aspect of how social media has changed the game.
> 
> Mat, your wife and her OM had regular face to face contact. Would their affair have happened without social media?


In reference to this. I toyed with having an affair 15 years ago, didn't happen, but with social media (IM,texting and cell phones) that when we re-connected through these options it was easier to have that long awaited EA and the anticipation of that e-mail, text, or cell phone call was so intoxicating that before I knew it we were in a full blown EA bordering on a PA. Thank God my moral compass steered me right.


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## mochamom (Nov 28, 2012)

Now I "sext message" with my husband and talk like I did with my EA...actually I learned alot and have been able to translate that "naughty talk" to our relationship...we are more in love than we have ever been. Hate it that it took an almost affair to wake us up. But I am not complaining


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Can we talk about the withdrawal from a texting affair when it ends cold turkey or at least attempts to. What does the person do when they had a habit of 2000 text a month? How do they channel that energy besides the obvious answer of putting it back in the marriage. I would think its like telling a cocaine addict to take up knitting in place of the drug.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Well stop getting on the computer totally. Stop totally talking to her and find other things to do like texting your wife more and within about a week you should be fine. Just learn to do other things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kansasguy (Jan 5, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> *"The physical attraction between us is intense and obvious"*,
> 
> Better yet- here's a test....take 3 days and do NOT text at all. See if you can do it. Bet you cant.


I actually tried this a few days ago. Couldn't even go 3 hours. Getting a text from her is like getting a rush from some kind of drug. BUT the content is not anywhere near sexual. We don't see each other outside of work or anything like that. 

I really think two mature adults can have a friendship like this as long as neither one pushes it too far. As long as they're both in total control, like we are. Something would have happened already if we weren't, and it hasn't.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

You're addicted and it's not healthy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Kansasguy said:


> I actually tried this a few days ago. Couldn't even go 3 hours. Getting a text from her is like getting a rush from some kind of drug. BUT the content is not anywhere near sexual. We don't see each other outside of work or anything like that.
> 
> I really think two mature adults can have a friendship like this as long as neither one pushes it too far. As long as they're both in total control, like we are. Something would have happened already if we weren't, and it hasn't.


Couldn't go three hours but in total control.......think about it.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

mochamom said:


> In reference to this. I toyed with having an affair 15 years ago, didn't happen, but with social media (IM,texting and cell phones) that when we re-connected through these options it was easier to have that long awaited EA and the anticipation of that e-mail, text, or cell phone call was so intoxicating that before I knew it we were in a full blown EA bordering on a PA. *Thank God my moral compass steered me right*.


It's something to look back on with pride. Many people are blindsided to realize they are emotionally attached but they don't cut ties when the reality hit's them.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Kansasguy, since you two are gossiping about the office, you also need to be concerned as to whether any of your coworkers can get their hands your or her phone.

I agree with the others. You are spending way too much time with another woman since you are married.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Kansasguy said:


> I actually tried this a few days ago. Couldn't even go 3 hours. Getting a text from her is like getting a rush from some kind of drug. BUT the content is not anywhere near sexual. We don't see each other outside of work or anything like that.


You are soooooooo in over your head. Been there, done that.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

For Kansasguy - never mind the damage he is unknowingly doing to his marriage (as well as the OW to hers) - just think of the time and resources they are wasting at work. Almost 15 hours a month (conservative estimate) EACH - on gossip. 

Office gossip is toxic for productivity. 30 man-hours between them/month, likely using company time and resources to do it. If they're found out, it would serve them right if they were fired. If I was their manager, and found out - let's just say they would have a LOT of explaining to do.

And it's even worse for their own spouses....


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Kansasguy could be some kind of a troll. I'd say dont take him too seriously. I'm sure he knows he's wrong about what he's saying or doing (if the story is true) but given that this is a pro marriage forum he wants to see our reaction and get some amusement out of it. 
He's in contradiction about how he says he feels with what he says he does. 
He says he's in control yet he can't help but feel the need to contact her after 3 hours.

Even a 5 year old knows this is an emotional involvement/commitment (if not an affair YET).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

When people meet online I don't think they are looking to cheat. Most people anyway. I think life is hard and sometimes finding pleasure is impossible, therefore, many retreat to the online world for some type of social release. 

I have to watch myself in how much time I spend on forums because I can easily spend four hours reading and responding to threads. It's not cheating but it's time consuming and can cross over to addiction easily. If people on the forums start flirting with me it becomes even more addictive because now I'm feeling loved, valued and attractive.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Enchanted said:


> When people meet online I don't think they are looking to cheat. Most people anyway. I think life is hard and sometimes finding pleasure is impossible, therefore, many retreat to the online world for some type of social release.
> 
> I have to watch myself in how much time I spend on forums because I can easily spend four hours reading and responding to threads. It's not cheating but it's time consuming and can cross over to addiction easily. If people on the forums start flirting with me it becomes even more addictive because now I'm feeling loved, valued and attractive.



Good points. You can really get sucked in without realizing it. As somebody earlier posted - it's like a video game. 

(in fact, why am I here on this forum when I have stuff to do today??....)


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

Cedarman said:


> Good points. You can really get sucked in without realizing it. As somebody earlier posted - it's like a video game.
> 
> (in fact, why am I here on this forum when I have stuff to do today??....)


Yesterday, my husband spent the day helping his mother. I felt sad and lonely and spent pretty much the whole day on TAM. I did get some chores done but doing laundry and paying bills isn't really that much fun. But reading stories about cheating, sex and romance is fun and I'm able to post my thoughts. Then if someone "responds with quote" I feel good. I don't get that feeling folding clothes.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Kansasguy said:


> I actually tried this a few days ago. Couldn't even go 3 hours. Getting a text from her is like getting a rush from some kind of drug. BUT the content is not anywhere near sexual. We don't see each other outside of work or anything like that.
> 
> I really think two mature adults can have a friendship like this as long as neither one pushes it too far. As long as they're both in total control, like we are. Something would have happened already if we weren't, and it hasn't.


Wow. Its a damned good thing youre in control- I'd shudder to imagine what "out of control" looks like for you?!?!?!?!?

Come on- you know this is too far gone already. Take some time to read some threads about the damage EA's do to a marriage. Are you ready to lose yours? The misery caused to both the WS and the BS are immeasurable. You still can pull this train back up on the tracks before you destroy your life and hers as well as your respective spouses lives. This isnt high school anymore.

Let me ask you this(again since others have as well)- does your wife know? If so how does she feel about it? IF not-WHY? Secret keeping is also a BIG ole' affair sign. Do you think about her when you are at home? Have you had sexual fantasies about her? My bet is you could check all the boxes here. If your wife were texting a man she was attracted to 2000 times a month and keeping it from you, fantasizing about him and spending the time she spends with you thinking about HIM how would you feel? Would it be appropriate THEN?


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

I get sucked in to pinterest. I find that if I set a time limit I can keep to it. Much like how you set a time to exercise. It's when you have a open ended day that you can lose hours browsing.


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## mochamom (Nov 28, 2012)

For Kansasguy...been there,and this just isn't healthy. Took me years (2) to get passed this EA... started just as yours has...nothing going on,just gossip at work. Then spilled over to late nite texts and emails... sending H out of house to run an errand so I coukd call him. You need to cut it out Cold Turkey... you are traveling down a slippery slope


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## Kansasguy (Jan 5, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> Let me ask you this(again since others have as well)- does your wife know?


No.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Kansasguy said:


> No.


BINGO! 
WHY NOT? Would she be hurt? Would she feel threatened? Would she consider it being unfaithful? What about the other questions I asked you???? Do you fantasize about her? Do you think about her when youre with your family? Do you put more energy into this *woman* than you do your own? Does her H know? Would you be willing to stand next to HIM as he read the communication between you and HIS wife? Do you compare your wife to her? ARe you picking little fights with your wife and becoming overly critical? Are you SUDDENLY seeing problems in your marriage that you didnt see before? If your wife were doing the same thing- how would you feel?


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

And would you feel threatened if your wife were doing it? (knowing the sexual tension is there even if texts doesn't reflect it)
How would you feel?


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Acabado said:


> And would you feel threatened if your wife were doing it? (knowing the sexual tension is there even if texts doesn't reflect it)
> How would you feel?


And I'd bet the farm that the text DO indeed reflect their attraction and thats why he is a compulsive deleter.......

COme on he wants us to believe that two people heavily attracted to each other are keeping 2000 texts from becoming flirtatious or sexual in any way either directly or thru inuendo. If thats true KG, show them to your wife. Afterall, its innocent and no one has crossed the line- right?:scratchhead: 

I have some communication with male friends. My H has access to ALL of it. I do not delete without giving him opportunity to read any and all of it. Also if there were 2000 of them he'd sh*t a brick! My H is also friends with any guy I speak to and I am friends with their wives. Its all above board. No secrets. No sexual tension. No inuendo towards each other. NONE.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

daggeredheart said:


> Can we talk about the withdrawal from a texting affair when it ends cold turkey or at least attempts to. What does the person do when they had a habit of 2000 text a month? How do they channel that energy besides the obvious answer of putting it back in the marriage. I would think its like telling a cocaine addict to take up knitting in place of the drug.


This was a big issue for me. Most of my EA was carried on at work and when it ended I found I didn't know what to do with all of the time I had all of the sudden. Consequently a kind of hamster wheel of withdrawal developed. I suddenly had all this time at work since the EA was over but I couldn't engage in my job because I was so distracted, so I'd wind up thinking about/focused on the OW which pulled me farther away from my work and deeper into withdrawal. And round and round I went until I just had enough and forced myself into work. If I couldn't get into work I'd get up and walk around for 10 minutes or so and try again. In essence I wallowed until I got fed up with it. The huge block of time that opens up makes it very easy to get stuck. As we all know just because an affair is over doesn't mean the participants have left it, and all this new "free" time with no where to focus it very naturally gravitates back to it. It's a very real trap and I suspect largely responsible for many violations of NC.


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## Kansasguy (Jan 5, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> BINGO!
> WHY NOT? Would she be hurt?
> Probably
> Would she feel threatened?
> ...


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

So of the 12 questions I asked you answered positive for an affair 7 times, IDK(pretty much a positive) 3 times,1 "kind of"(comparing your wife to her) and 1 yes(because your communications are "innocent".) And YOU still say there's nothing wrong with what youre doing????? You have CLASSIC affair status. IE - comparing your wife to OW(negatively I'd bet), fantasizing sexually about her, spending your time with your wife thinking about OW, Being overly critical of your w and SUDDENLY seeing all these things wrong with your marriage- FYI in the cheaters handbook its known as rewriting marital history. You do realize that you dont know anything about this *woman* right? YOu know exactly what she presents to you and NOThING more. Just as thats what she knows about you. Youre in rainbows and unicorns land with her and you seriously dont believe you are damaging YOUR marriage???? You need to read Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. It will tell you all you need to know about where youre headed if you continue this. 

And again, if its so innocent- do tell your wife. Maybe they could be friends. Also, since its so "innocent" and you'd stand next to her H while he read them all why dont you start forwarding them to him and let him be the judge of how "innocent" all the time HIS wife is spending on YOU.


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

It makes me wonder why texting seems to produce the most poignant messages..... especially when both of them could access all three of these methods on their handhelds.[/QUOTE]

Back to the original thread... I think there is something about holding your phone, or having it in your pocket...and waiting for the "vibration" or ring or whatever. It IS Pavlovian, and I think its that the phone itself feels like a connection to the AP - like an invisible string - much more so than the computer. And it's ALWAYS with you. Texts are quicker fixes, I guess! Like an I.V.! The computer is more like taking a pill and waiting for it to work.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> So of the 12 questions I asked you answered positive for an affair 7 times, IDK(pretty much a positive) 3 times,1 "kind of"(comparing your wife to her) and 1 yes(because your communications are "innocent".) And YOU still say there's nothing wrong with what youre doing????? You have CLASSIC affair status. IE - comparing your wife to OW(negatively I'd bet), fantasizing sexually about her, spending your time with your wife thinking about OW, Being overly critical of your w and SUDDENLY seeing all these things wrong with your marriage- FYI in the cheaters handbook its known as rewriting marital history. You do realize that you dont know anything about this *woman* right? YOu know exactly what she presents to you and NOThING more. Just as thats what she knows about you. Youre in rainbows and unicorns land with her and you seriously dont believe you are damaging YOUR marriage???? You need to read Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. It will tell you all you need to know about where youre headed if you continue this.
> 
> And again, if its so innocent- do tell your wife. Maybe they could be friends. Also, since its so "innocent" and you'd stand next to her H while he read them all why dont you start forwarding them to him and let him be the judge of how "innocent" all the time HIS wife is spending on YOU.


I dont think this is what he wanted to hear so he's In the wind. He already knew all of this so hopefully he will give it some consideration before he destroys two families.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

When you hear your phone chirp, it's like getting a present and you rush to open it...and have a letdown when it's spam. 

Sigma- you should be the official 12 step sponsor of EA recovery because you can describe to those WS's the expected emotions they will experience. The way you explained your struggle to fill that void after it ends is dead on. Many WS might not recognize that, only that they crave continued contact and mistakenly think it means they are supposed to continue the affair.

"*As we all know just because an affair is over doesn't mean the participants have left it, and all this new "free" time with no where to focus it very naturally gravitates back to it. It's a very real trap and I suspect largely responsible for many violations of NC. " * <---this should be a plaque on the wall it's that important of a point


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think the issue of the texting EA (and really all social media that is similar) is completely new in our history and we are just starting to understand what it will mean to relationships, to marriages, to families.

What is so different is that technology is allowing for the first time an instantaneous, almost real-time conversation that is written rather than oral. It's not the lack of face-to-face that is different. We've had telephones for a long time. It's the fact that it's textual.

Writing is derivative from speaking and is only a human approximation of speech - we do the best we can with writing to convey what speech would convey, but it is always just an approximation.

Writing can not accurately convey emphasis, tone, intonation, physical gestures & body language, shades of emotion, etc. We try to make it do those things, but the results are never perfect (we use bolding, emoticons, etc.).

So, the texting relationship is real, but it is by definition a step removed from real human language and a real human relationship. People here always say that affairs are fantasy because they are clandestine and not experienced in a real-life way. A texting relationship adds another layer of irreality to it because it is both clandestine and has the 'one step from real life' nature of text vs. language.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

As soon as I got rid of the ex-om I changed my tone for text on my cell. Then had hubby change his too. That sound just bugged the crap outa me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kansasguy (Jan 5, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> I dont think this is what he wanted to hear so he's In the wind. He already knew all of this so hopefully he will give it some consideration before he destroys two families.


I just sat there at work and tried to pretend nothing would happen. Then she sent me a text. Of course I had to respond. And on and on it goes. BUT the difference is that all of these so-called "EA's" you other people experienced ended up going further. After work, late at night, weekends. We never do that! 

Right there is proof that all of those others had "affairs" and we aren't. Why am I not texting her right now instead of posting to this forum? See?? We're just friends, that's it!


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

My wife's texting EA texting was definitely grooming toward a PA. She still denies this, which is a huge problem for me.

Look at the basic facts. Both guys live in the area. One hang out with several friends of hers (she is no longer in contact with these 'friends'). Both guys are single and Loose, one even mentioned in a transcript I have that he was more "liberal" than my wife, implying he would do anything any time.

I feel if I didn't catch her when I did within a year she would have been sleeping with the one guy. She totally denies that as a possibility, which is either a lie or naive. I vote for lie as she is smarter than that.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Kansasguy said:


> I just sat there at work and tried to pretend nothing would happen. Then she sent me a text. Of course I had to respond. And on and on it goes. BUT the difference is that all of these so-called "EA's" you other people experienced ended up going further. After work, late at night, weekends. We never do that!
> 
> Right there is proof that all of those others had "affairs" and we aren't. Why am I not texting her right now instead of posting to this forum? See?? We're just friends, that's it!


Look. If you want to sell yourself this bs go for it. But we arent buying it. My H RARELY communicated on weekends bc they were worried about getting caught. Not bc she wasnt all up in his head 24/7, not bc he didnt want to, not bc she wasnt his FIRST order of business come Monday Morning but bc they were in denial themselves and said this very thing- If it only happens at work then its about work....60 emails a day, several texts, phone calls and personal convo's all about....work :rofl:. Got some land in Fl for ya too.

Another question, If you are so sure- WHY are you here posting on an INFIDELITY site? Why have you not told your wife? Why are you having sexual fantasies about her? Why are you spending your family time obsessing about her? THIS is NOT friendship- this is the very definition of an EA. 

You are about to ruin your life and hers too. This I guarantee.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Acoa, I feel that way about my fiance. If I hadn't put my foot down on his so called friendship, I feel strongly that he was trying to arrange face to face contact with her for the express purpose of trying to get back to dating her again.

He swears after he met me, all his interaction with her was strictly on a friends basis. .... even after I found all the receipts for dinner, bar tabs and text in which he offered her taxi fare..... at a time when he couldn't wait for the bus with me (which I was paying for myself). 

My fiance is completely transparent and has certainly surpassed what he ever did for her. But it still rankles....... 

that's why I'm here, to work the anger out without hassling him and to better understand. I certainly don't want to be dealing with EAs and inappropriate relationships when I am married.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Next, I worry more about my WW than the OM. Sure he is a POS, but she is NC with them. 

I worry about the fact she won't admit it was a prelude to a PA. There are plenty of POSOM in the ocean, I can't worry about all of them. I need my WW to recognize and admit when she has caught someone's eye. She want's to "enjoy" the attention and believes she can stop before it goes too far. She has already proved herself wrong in that regard but does not see it as such.

She says she knew she took it too far, but denies it would have gone any further. Which of course is cheaterspeak.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Acoa said:


> Next, I worry more about my WW than the OM. Sure he is a POS, but she is NC with them.
> 
> I worry about the fact she won't admit it was a prelude to a PA. There are plenty of POSOM in the ocean, I can't worry about all of them. I need my WW to recognize and admit when she has caught someone's eye. She want's to "enjoy" the attention and believes she can stop before it goes too far. She has already proved herself wrong in that regard but does not see it as such.
> 
> She says she knew she took it too far, but denies it would have gone any further. Which of course is cheaterspeak.



you are exactly correct. What your WW does not realize is that she was taking steps, one text at a time, towards a PA. Because they are baby steps, the typical WW doesn't realize how far off course they really are. They eventually get to a point where they are sexting - training their minds for the act. Then a PA is simply one more baby step. Then the WW will say "Well, it was only once - I won't do it again...."


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## Izzie (Aug 17, 2012)

Kansasguy, question: If this OW broke down and told you that she felt she was falling in love with you and you turned her on in ways unimaginable and she couldn't picture her life without you in it, What would be your reaction? Give us an honest answer. I have appreciated how candid you have been so far.

Personally I don't think WS are as naive as mentioned above. You can't very well say to your spouse, 'Yes I obsess every waking hour about screwing this man and I hope he feels the same way. I'm just waiting for a moment to admit this to him so we can hopefully get it on.' The BS believes the bullsh!t excuses every time because they want to. It eases the humiliation and the blow to the ego, the hurt... No one is that naive. 

I personally think Kansas guy is falling in love and obsessing about OW 24/7. He's trying to figure it all out in his head, hence the post here. It's a bad situation for everyone when this happens. It's tough for Kansas guy, his wife, the OW, her husband, their boss at the workplace  , any children involved... Good luck. Start a thread and keep us informed.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Cedarman said:


> you are exactly correct. What your WW does not realize is that she was taking steps, one text at a time, towards a PA. Because they are baby steps, the typical WW doesn't realize how far off course they really are. They eventually get to a point where they are sexting - training their minds for the act. Then a PA is simply one more baby step. Then the WW will say "Well, it was only once - I won't do it again...."


I had found an e-mail exchange between my fiance and his EA. She started it by asking him if he would like to join her at a music festival about 4 months into the future.

She sent him that message on a Friday afternoon to which he responded Monday morning with "Sorry I did not respond sooner. ...." (actual quote as I forwarded the e-mails to myself) Oh really now, as if having a girlfriend was not a good enough reason to lay off the messaging on the weekends. 

his response to the festival: "Probably not going to XXXX. Maybe." 

and then he went on to describe in great detail how he was travelling to another country with a male friend to see another music festival 5 months into the future. Mind you, he had told me about his trip plans but seemed to be careful about not giving the gender of this friend he was travelling with.

After I saw the e-mails, I read him the riot act. I told him that if he truly had no intentions of hoping that she might meet him at this festival, then he would never have told her about it in advance, particularly so far in advance. They liked the same kind of music. she was used to these outdoor stay in a tent festivals. She wanted to travel Europe as much as possible while she was here. and she had the money to do it. How much more does anyone need to know to know how much of a risk that was?

He denied everything but at least he knew how I think at that point. 

And of course, after that came the birthday party fiasco in which her bf sent my fiancé an invitation the day of; her texting him at closing time of the pub where the party took place wondering why he didn't come; his nonchalant response, scripted by me, that he was on a date with me; and then 2 weeks later her texting him to offer him an option to buy tickets to the festival that she was going to and wanted him to attend with her while calling him obnoxious over her birthday party. 

He asked me how I wanted to respond. I said since she likes having the last word -- something I noticed in the exchanges between them -- I told him to let her have it.

that was the last time she contacted him for more than a year.....when sent him an invitation to connect with LinkedIn. He showed it to me and then ignored it.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I .
> 
> that was the last time she contacted him for more than a year.....when sent him an invitation to connect with LinkedIn. He showed it to me and then ignored it.


Sounds like your fiancé is learning.


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## Kansasguy (Jan 5, 2013)

Izzie said:


> I personally think Kansas guy is falling in love and obsessing about OW 24/7. He's trying to figure it all out in his head, hence the post here. It's a bad situation for everyone when this happens. It's tough for Kansas guy, his wife, the OW, her husband, their boss at the workplace  , any children involved... Good luck. Start a thread and keep us informed.


This. I've given it a lot of thought and I realized that I've probably been in denial. I don't think I'll start my own thread because I doubt I'd find much sympathy here for someone like me. I'm sorry if I hijacked this one. I appreciate everyone's comments; they've helped me figure out some things.

I'm in an awful mess and I can see no way out of it.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Kansasguy said:


> This. I've given it a lot of thought and I realized that I've probably been in denial. I don't think I'll start my own thread because I doubt I'd find much sympathy here for someone like me. I'm sorry if I hijacked this one. I appreciate everyone's comments; they've helped me figure out some things.
> 
> I'm in an awful mess and I can see no way out of it.


1. Tell your wife. You would be amazed how that changes things.

2. Break off all contact with OW. Tell her why.

3. You will actually get a lot of support here in ending it. Lean on us.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Kansasguy said:


> This. I've given it a lot of thought and I realized that I've probably been in denial. I don't think I'll start my own thread because I doubt I'd find much sympathy here for someone like me. I'm sorry if I hijacked this one. I appreciate everyone's comments; they've helped me figure out some things.
> 
> I'm in an awful mess and I can see no way out of it.


No need to apologize - you did not hijack anything.

I would recommend that you hang around here - maybe start your own thread. The advice here is extremely valuable from both sides. Prevention AND recovery. Some of it will be delivered hard - but sometimes that is what you need. If I had been hit on the head with a TAM 2x4 a few years ago - I might not be in a failed marriage today.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Kansasguy said:


> This. I've given it a lot of thought and I realized that I've probably been in denial. I don't think I'll start my own thread because I doubt I'd find much sympathy here for someone like me. I'm sorry if I hijacked this one. I appreciate everyone's comments; they've helped me figure out some things.
> 
> I'm in an awful mess and I can see no way out of it.


KG. I think youre mistaken. IF you are truly looking for help out of this and are willing to take the help you will find it here. Sympathy, not likely but help absolutely. You will save your marriage here. Stick around. Start a thread and be honest. No one wants to tear you to shreads but sometimes you have to get 2x4'd initially bc the denial is so strong. IF youre looking for a way to change this you can find it here. It wont be easy but nothing worth having is.

Do start a thread. None of this is easy. We all get that. Im sorry youre here and so conflicted.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Wazza said:


> 1. Tell your wife. You would be amazed how that changes things.
> 
> 2. Break off all contact with OW. Tell her why.
> 
> 3. You will actually get a lot of support here in ending it. Lean on us.


THIS. NONE of this is easy but all of it is right. I dont say this lightly as Ive had to do this very thing myself.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Kansasguy - just go,through and read all the threads about emotional affairs. Pay special attention to the link posted on this site about your brain on love. It's eye opening about the chemical process that happens to cause infatuation. After I read that my world view on it changed. 

You probably wouldn't lay out and cut, snort lines of coke at home...but your essentially greeting hooked on those same chemicals now.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Wazza is right,telling our wife is the quickest way to kill your infatuation. It's like pouring water on the wicked witch.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

daggeredheart said:


> Pay special attention to the link posted on this site about *your brain on love.*


:lol: Why am I suddenly craving eggs now????? Classic!!!

KG - I hope to see you start your own thread. As you've been told the people here will help you but they will not use a soft touch. If you speak like a fogged out wayward expect a harsh slap across the face - for the most part it's meant to help you. Of course the more slaps you require the more frustrated people will get with you and the more venom they will spew in your direction. There's a lesson in that. The best way to save your marriage is to pull your head out of your ass fast and completely. If you decide to rip off the band aid be committed, don't half ass it. If you want to save it confess, confess it all, and do it in one conversation. Sure details will come later but make damn sure everything you can think of is on the table. After that dig in and and do the work, accept accountability and pay the prices.

Just so you know - I had a EA myself - conducted primarily at work. Mine was way more out of bounds than yours but shorter in duration. I came here for help, I suffered the slings and arrows. Today my wife and are successfully reconciling - it can be done. Listen to the people here. There are other cheaters here in addition to me, any of us glad to do anything we can to help you - as long as you're willing to do what you have to.


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## Kansasguy (Jan 5, 2013)

Wazza said:


> 1. Tell your wife. You would be amazed how that changes things.
> 
> 2. Break off all contact with OW. Tell her why.
> 
> 3. You will actually get a lot of support here in ending it. Lean on us.


Break off all contact? OK. The only problem is, we sit within a few feet of each other, within sight of each other, 9 hours a day, every day. 

I need help. I think I will start my own thread.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Kansasguy said:


> Break off all contact? OK. The only problem is, we sit within a few feet of each other, within sight of each other, 9 hours a day, every day.
> 
> I need help. I think I will start my own thread.


Ok, I understand that. 

Some people will tell you you have to quit your job and they may be right. But start by telling your wfei everything, and see how that changes your heart.

And ask your "friend" not to text or message any more.


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## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

Wazza said:


> 1. Tell your wife. You would be amazed how that changes things.
> 
> 2. Break off all contact with OW. Tell her why.
> 
> 3. You will actually get a lot of support here in ending it. Lean on us.



^This. Absolutely, positively. The best thing I ever did during my brief affair (not that brief really matters...an affair is an affair) is that I admitted it to my wife. When she asked whether something was up, at first I said no like all cheaters do, then after hanging up and thinking about it, I realized that I just couldn't lie to my wife, so I called her back up 15 minutes later and admitted it.

The R was hell, but without that reconciliation would have been impossible. Don't wait for her to find out. It will be far, far worse.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

PreRaphaelite said:


> Don't wait for her to find out. It will be far, far worse.


And don't hide details to soften the blow, for the same reason.


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

Kansasguy said:


> Break off all contact? OK. The only problem is, we sit within a few feet of each other, within sight of each other, 9 hours a day, every day.
> 
> I need help. I think I will start my own thread.


You will need to find a new job. You cannot continue to work with this woman.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Kansasguy said:


> Break off all contact? OK. The only problem is, we sit within a few feet of each other, within sight of each other, 9 hours a day, every day.
> 
> I need help. I think I will start my own thread.


so did my H. Do you want your marriage or your job? It really is that simple, yet very complicated. Ultimately it comes down to a choice between your marriage and your job/OW.


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

So, new to this thread but I agree, my H had 2 EA's, the first time 16 years ago, also started "innocently" playing online backgammon but quickly progressed to all but physical contact as she was 2k miles away. 

15 years later it happens again, this time in Words with Friends on his phone. My oldest son even set up the game for him,and knew his password so I'm not sure what he was thinking when he started chatting with another OW and then sexting not too long after that. He says it is the instant response, positive feedback from a woman who thinks you can do no wrong and builds up your ego. He truly likes playing games, real games, but people seem to lose all sense of boundaries in that situation. He also had no plans of meeting her IRL but it hurts all the same to me. Time lost, love lost etc.

A year after this he called her out of the blue to see how she was doing and they talked 8-10 times over 2 months. I saw her # on his phone and asked him about it. He says they were going to stop talking again as soon as he knew her latest surgery was OK (it's always something with some people) I actually believe he was being sincere but friendship is not an option now. I contacted her and told her it had to stop (of course he was told this too) or I will contact her H as he does know they were talking on the phone this year, but not about the EA last year. If this doesn't work, and I find out it continues, or starts again with her or anyone else,we are done.

I finally learned that I can't change anyone, I can only change how I respond to them.


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