# When is it time to stop investigating



## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

So here's a topic that I'm really curious about the response to. It's something I've been thinking about reading some of the threads on here. 

So a little background on me, a little over a year ago I found that my wife had been texting another man that she knew through work pretty much from the time she woke up to the time she went to sleep everyday. I jumped the gun and confronted her about it without knowing anything other than the fact that the texting was taking place. I had done a little research and found out who the OM was and although I had never met him, I knew who he was. So she told me that they just text a lot about her work and life in general, that he gives her advice on work related things and they just became friends which led them to talking about their lives, families and just day to day things. I didn't completely buy into it but really what could I have done at the time, I had no evidence of anything and the two of them did cut all ties with each other. That made me even more suspicious but she claimed it was because I completely blew up at her over it, she told him how I reacted and he was honestly afraid of me. I investigated a little further and could still find nothing to suggest there was any kind of physical affair so I had to put it behind me.

So now back in February I randomly found a text on her phone again from a different man, again someone I knew but wasn't friends with, and the text was suggestive. There was no real response to it from my wife other than something non suggestive and just blowing off the text. I looked through the entire text thread and didn't see anything else other than a couple semi flirty texts from him. But again it set me off and I confronted her. She told me that it was an unsolicited text, nothing had ever happened between them and the whole song and dance, once again I wasn't buying it. I let her think I was just putting it behind us but I actually started a full blown investigation. I put a gps tracker on her car at times, I got into her phone without her knowing and went through everything, I planted VAR's in multiple locations throughout the house and in her car, I people follow her and drive by places she told me she was going, I kept logs of when she came home every night and if she had gone out somewhere after work I kept track of where she said she was and who she was with, I mean looking back at it now I became crazy, I even confronted the OM and basically got the same story that she told me.

But I really did become obsessed with trying to find one thing that suggested it was a physical affair, just one little thing. And through all of it, I found nothing. All I found was more and more proof that it was nothing more than just an unsolicited text. But for some reason I kept looking, and it got to the point that she knew 100% that I was watching every little move she made, but I could still find nothing, and it just pushed her further away from me and made her withdraw from our marriage even more. Yes I still pay close attention to things and if something happens or comes up about it I look into it but if I don't find anything I stop and leave it alone. I came to the realization that I was literally driving myself insane over an answer to a question that from what I can see doesn't exist.

So the question here is, when do you feel it's time to stop investigating a possible affair or a known affair that you've been told was over and have begun to reconcile?


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

When she knew that you were looking into every little move she made, didn't that tell her that SHE needed to do something about it. Instead of making you do it behind her back, why didn't she come to you with full disclosure?

To answer your question, I think the time to stop investigating is when she finds out about it. Then, she'll end up going further and further dark so you won't find anything. At that point it makes no sense to continue.

Were you justified in what you did? Absolutely. She did not come to you with full disclosure and remorse about what she did, she gave you reason to believe she kept on doing it.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

jb02157 said:


> When she knew that you were looking into every little move she made, didn't that tell her that SHE needed to do something about it. Instead of making you do it behind her back, why didn't she come to you with full disclosure?
> 
> To answer your question, I think the time to stop investigating is when she finds out about it. Then, she'll end up going further and further dark so you won't find anything. At that point it makes no sense to continue.
> 
> Were you justified in what you did? Absolutely. She did not come to you with full disclosure and remorse about what she did, she gave you reason to believe she kept on doing it.


Exactly, but even though about a months worth of investigating turned up nothing, I still kept looking. It wasn't until after I found nothing that she realized I was watching her like a hawk. It was like I was so focused on finding something that I just couldn't stop and that obsession made her notice that I was watching her.

But recenty there have been a few discussions on here about investigating the possibility of an affair or an affair that the BS was told had been ended. In most of those the BS hasn't found anything to back up their suspicions so should they keep digging? Like really, when is enough, enough?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

You need to stop. Stop trying to control her and control what you can, you. You need to get to a place where if she was to cheat you would be confident enough that you would be fine and able to move on. Of course it would hurt, but your wife should only be one part of your life not your whole life. The way you do that is to not put all your eggs in her basket so to speak. Branch out and find other things besides you wife to bring you happiness. Build strong man friendships. Grow interesting hobbies. That will put you in a much stronger position to deal with anything from your wife. It also has the added benefit of making you more attractive. While you are at it if you are not is shape get in shape. Again confidence, self assurance. 

As for your wife keep your eyes open but that means check her phone every once and a while not run a full CSI investigation. Truth is if she is going to cheat she is going to cheat you can't stop it. I would also let her know that you don't appreciate her receiving flirty texts from men especially when she didn't shut it down and prevent it from continuing. That was disrespectful to you and her marriage. Let he know that there is a point where you are not going to put up with it. That doesn't mean you are going to control her it means you will have to reevaluate your relationship. 

Again you have no control over your wife but you do have control over you. Right now this has exposed weakness in you. You are too dependent on her, you are too afraid to lose her.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

AtMyEnd said:


> Exactly, but even though about a months worth of investigating turned up nothing, I still kept looking. It wasn't until after I found nothing that she realized I was watching her like a hawk. It was like I was so focused on finding something that I just couldn't stop and that obsession made her notice that I was watching her.
> 
> But recenty there have been a few discussions on here about investigating the possibility of an affair or an affair that the BS was told had been ended. In most of those the BS hasn't found anything to back up their suspicions so should they keep digging? Like really, when is enough, enough?


You kept going because you thought there was a chance that she was having an affair. Nothing you can do will make it go away, you think it's true and you'll do anything to prove to yourself one way or another. You investigate until you have peace of mind. That varies alot from person to person. To investigate for less time than would give you complete assurance that nothing happened would be pointless.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

sokillme said:


> You need to stop. Stop trying to control her and control what you can, you. You need to get to a place where if she was to cheat you would be confident enough that you would be fine and able to move on. Of course it would hurt, but your wife should only be one part of your life not your whole life. The way you do that is to not put all your eggs in her basket so to speak. Branch out and find other things besides you wife to bring you happiness. Build strong man friendships. Grow interesting hobbies. That will put you in a much stronger position to deal with anything from your wife. It also has the added benefit of making you more attractive. While you are at it if you are not is shape get in shape. Again confidence, self assurance.
> 
> As for your wife keep your eyes open but that means check her phone every once and a while not run a full CSI investigation. Truth is if she is going to cheat she is going to cheat you can't stop it. I would also let her know that you don't appreciate her receiving flirty texts from men especially when she didn't shut it down and prevent it from continuing. That was disrespectful to you and her marriage. Let he know that there is a point where you are not going to put up with it. That doesn't mean you are going to control her it means you will have to reevaluate your relationship.
> 
> Again you have no control over your wife but you do have control over you. Right now this has exposed weakness in you. You are too dependent on her, you are too afraid to lose her.


Exactly, I have stopped the full blown CSI investigation. I do log on to our cell account from time to time to look at her text log and her data usage but haven't seen anything. Getting into her phone is a little harder since I need to use her fingerprint to open it while she sleeps, lol. But it was strange, I woke up one morning a couple weeks ago and it felt like the weight was lifted off my chest for some reason. Since then I haven't done anything, I've gone back to basically letting her do her thing and me doing my thing. I haven't seen anything lately that would make me what to investigate so I haven't even thought about it. And like you said, if she's going to cheat there's nothing I can do to stop it. I have my life in order so if we do split the transition will be fairly seamless, but surprisingly over the last couple weeks things between us have improved a lot.

As far as myself, I've actually come a long way since all of this started. I'm out doing more without her, sure there are some things that I do ask if she wants to join just to built our bond a little, but if she says no I go do them anyway. I started working out again back in January, I'm down 30 lbs and my muscle definition is back. I still work out 4-6 times a week and could probably lose another 10-15 lbs but it's going. I actually think she's jealous because her friends have all commented about how good I look and how I've seemed a lot happier lately, yet she hasn't said anything about the weight loss to me. I know she wants to lose 10-15 lbs because she has gained weight over the last year or so and isn't happy with how she looks, which is actually another reason I don't think she was ever physical with the OM, like she really is kind of upset about the weight gain and she can never seem to find time to go to the gym. We have a gym at home with pretty much all the equipment you need and I always ask her to workout with me but she says she needs the motivation of an actual gym so whatever. But in general with myself things are the best they've been in a while.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

If you went full CIA and found nothing it is time to go dormant for 6 months to a year unless something pops up. 6 months to a year do a light investigation and if it comes up negative wait several years to repeat. Unless something comes up of course.

Ive been on the inside many times and have seen it where women tell their friends about something, feel guilty and really don't go back to the bad behaviors.

Several former posters are into one light sweep every year or two for sanity sake.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

What do you have in terms of passwords to her phones, devices, email and social media accounts, etc?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

AtMyEnd said:


> Exactly, I have stopped the full blown CSI investigation. I do log on to our cell account from time to time to look at her text log and her data usage but haven't seen anything. Getting into her phone is a little harder since I need to use her fingerprint to open it while she sleeps, lol. But it was strange, I woke up one morning a couple weeks ago and it felt like the weight was lifted off my chest for some reason. Since then I haven't done anything, I've gone back to basically letting her do her thing and me doing my thing. I haven't seen anything lately that would make me what to investigate so I haven't even thought about it. And like you said, if she's going to cheat there's nothing I can do to stop it. I have my life in order so if we do split the transition will be fairly seamless, but surprisingly over the last couple weeks things between us have improved a lot.
> 
> As far as myself, I've actually come a long way since all of this started. I'm out doing more without her, sure there are some things that I do ask if she wants to join just to built our bond a little, but if she says no I go do them anyway. I started working out again back in January, I'm down 30 lbs and my muscle definition is back. I still work out 4-6 times a week and could probably lose another 10-15 lbs but it's going. I actually think she's jealous because her friends have all commented about how good I look and how I've seemed a lot happier lately, yet she hasn't said anything about the weight loss to me. I know she wants to lose 10-15 lbs because she has gained weight over the last year or so and isn't happy with how she looks, which is actually another reason I don't think she was ever physical with the OM, like she really is kind of upset about the weight gain and she can never seem to find time to go to the gym. We have a gym at home with pretty much all the equipment you need and I always ask her to workout with me but she says she needs the motivation of an actual gym so whatever. But in general with myself things are the best they've been in a while.


This all sounds good. I am not saying avoid doing things with her or dating her and stuff I am saying know you worth. Either she wants to be with you or not. That is on her, someone will appreciate you. In the same respect be a great husband not just for her but for you. If she blows it, doesn't mean you aren't a great husband, and can't be for someone else. But your worth is in your actions not her appreciation of your actions. Know you worth.


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## Archangel2 (Sep 25, 2014)

Quick question - Do you know if she has any of those so-called "cheater apps" on her phone?


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Archangel2 said:


> Quick question - Do you know if she has any of those so-called "cheater apps" on her phone?


She had been texting with the second guy on Whatsapp, after I confronted her about the other one she knew that I had been checking her text log so I guess that's why she started using that. I've checked the phone for other apps and there wasn't anything other than Snapchat which she's had for years but I still went through that and found nothing. I had also gotten the Dr Fone program so I could download the backups of her deleted texts and Whatsapp messages and really didn't find anything. The only thing I saw was a handful of texts from the OM that were a little flirty but she hadn't really responded to those, she had just went right on with whatever conversation they were having. That was why I stopped investigating, there's only so many times you can check and not find anything before you have to tell yourself that maybe my assumptions of a full blown affair are wrong. Am I 100% confident that nothing ever happened, no, but I can't keep driving myself crazy over something I can't find proof of. I just need to live my life but keep my eyes open and see what happens.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

I think you put all your energies into the WRONG guy.

I think OM#1 was the guy you* should *have been checking out and following. You said yourself she would text him from the minute she got up until the minute she went to bed. I'll assume she deleted all those texts so you only have her 'word' that all their conversations were only about their work, lives and families. I don't believe that at ALL.

It's possible you put the fear of God into her when you confronted her about her 'friendship' with OM#1. And possibly him, as well. Some guys don't care and will continue pursuing anyway, but maybe this guy ran scared and didn't think the risk was worth the 'reward.' But it's also possible they simply moved their texting over to What'sApp or Snapchat or whatever. Honestly? I think you would have found a WHOLE lot of shady stuff between those two if you'd gone to the snooping extremes that you did with OM#2. 

That text you found from OM#2 was obviously someone your wife didn't find NEARLY as attractive as she did the first guy, and that's why she didn't engage with him or encourage him. And that's why she wasn't texting the guy from sunup to sundown, like she was with the first guy. Of *course* you weren't going to find anything going on between them - she wasn't into him. Just her attitude toward him *alone *in the text string you managed to read made it clear she wasn't interested.

And the fact that this sneak downloaded a chatting/texting app BECAUSE she didn't want to be transparent with you about who she's talking with and what they're saying speaks *volumes *- and NONE of it good.

I wouldn't trust her if you paid me. Not if you PAID me.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Did you ever fastidiously go through her cellphone bill to check on "strange numbers" and the frequency with which those calls were made? Or even perhaps the random overall occurrence of her texting activity to those same numbers?

If your investigation has reached an impasse, then I'd say that it is time to move on and to let "sleeping dogs" lie!*


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I think you put all your energies into the WRONG guy.
> 
> I think OM#1 was the guy you* should *have been checking out and following. You said yourself she would text him from the minute she got up until the minute she went to bed. I'll assume she deleted all those texts so you only have her 'word' that all their conversations were only about their work, lives and families. I don't believe that at ALL.
> 
> ...


I have gone through her Whatsapp, Snapchat, texts, emails, contacts, and everything else. She doesn't even have OM #1's number in her phone anymore, I searched the phone by phone number for that one to see if it was listed under a different name and it wasn't there. The other thing is that knowing my wife's taste, she would've been more attracted to OM #2 if there was something physical and not OM #1. But no, I still don't trust her 100% about any of this. She went to a work networking event recently and when she got home she told me that she had seen OM #1 there and told me that she had no idea he was going to be there. My thinking on her telling me that was if nothing had been going on then why even make a point to tell me he was there and that she didn't know he was going to be there. But still, as much as I have seen some shady and bizarre behavior from her since all of this I still haven't found anything anywhere that suggests things became physical in either case so I needed to back off of my investigations for my own sanity.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

arbitrator said:


> *Did you ever fastidiously go through her cellphone bill to check on "strange numbers" and the frequency with which those calls were made? Or even perhaps the random overall occurrence of her texting activity to those same numbers?
> 
> If your investigation has reached an impasse, then I'd say that it is time to move on and to let "sleeping dogs" lie!*


I log into our cell account once a week or so and check the numbers she texts and the data usage. I know her password to the cell account so I log in under her name so any numbers I don't know I'm able to look up in her contacts backup. I also know roughly the amount of data usage a Whatsapp or other messaging app message uses so I can tell if she's sent any messages using an app. The couple times I've gotten into her phone to look through everything, I've even done a search in her contacts by phone number to see if she listed the numbers under a different name. So as of right now I do need to leave things as they are and just keep my eyes open.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

AtMyEnd said:


> Exactly, I have stopped the full blown CSI investigation. I do log on to our cell account from time to time to look at her text log and her data usage but haven't seen anything. Getting into her phone is a little harder since I need to use her fingerprint to open it while she sleeps, lol. But it was strange, I woke up one morning a couple weeks ago and it felt like the weight was lifted off my chest for some reason. Since then I haven't done anything, I've gone back to basically letting her do her thing and me doing my thing. I haven't seen anything lately that would make me what to investigate so I haven't even thought about it. And like you said, if she's going to cheat there's nothing I can do to stop it. I have my life in order so if we do split the transition will be fairly seamless, but surprisingly over the last couple weeks things between us have improved a lot.
> 
> As far as myself, I've actually come a long way since all of this started. I'm out doing more without her, sure there are some things that I do ask if she wants to join just to built our bond a little, but if she says no I go do them anyway. I started working out again back in January, I'm down 30 lbs and my muscle definition is back. I still work out 4-6 times a week and could probably lose another 10-15 lbs but it's going. I actually think she's jealous because her friends have all commented about how good I look and how I've seemed a lot happier lately, yet she hasn't said anything about the weight loss to me. I know she wants to lose 10-15 lbs because she has gained weight over the last year or so and isn't happy with how she looks, which is actually another reason I don't think she was ever physical with the OM, like she really is kind of upset about the weight gain and she can never seem to find time to go to the gym. We have a gym at home with pretty much all the equipment you need and I always ask her to workout with me but she says she needs the motivation of an actual gym so whatever. But in general with myself things are the best they've been in a while.


Good for you, working on yourself is the only thing you can do.
You were right to go CSI on her, who constantly texts someone of the opposite sex from morning to night unless there is something going on? It may well have been a crush which she did not reciprocated, but she was definitely crossing boundaries by communicating so much with this man or any man.

I think you have the right idea. You will know if you have to investigate, but I suspect in the not too distant future, she will be more worried about you cheating on her. Keep up the good work!:smthumbup:


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

GusPolinski said:


> What do you have in terms of passwords to her phones, devices, email and social media accounts, etc?


I don't have her passwords to anything. I have bbeen able to get into her computer but she doesn't use that for anything, everything she does is with her phone. I can access her phone without her knowing and have done so a few times. But that's a little tricky, she has her phone set up so that her fingerprint can open the phone. I get in and check the phone on nights that she's had a couple drinks and has fallen asleep. I wait a little to make sure she's really out, I lay there holding her hand for a little so that she feels we touching her hand and gets used to the feeling, and then I take the phone and press her finger to the scanner to open it.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Gawd..don't you hate this.

I would really want this snooping to end.

By catching her.
By seeing that she has quit this chicanery.

I would continue for a while.
Stop looking through her phone.

Go the VAR route. The voice activated recorder in her car and in the place at home where she sits.

I would look for a burner phone. When she is not home, go through everything she owns, in her closet, in pockets, old purses, under furniture. Pull out drawers, look in the open space.

A burner phone could be in her car, under a seat or carpet or in her trunk under the sound proofing. Or, it could be plugged in at work, in her desk or locker.

GPS her car.

YOU MUST not let on that you are still suspicious. Be calm and trusting, as hard as that is.

Others will tell you that this is no way to live. Just divorce her if you do not trust her. That is another option.

Good luck.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

aine said:


> Good for you, working on yourself is the only thing you can do.
> You were right to go CSI on her, who constantly texts someone of the opposite sex from morning to night unless there is something going on? It may well have been a crush which she did not reciprocated, but she was definitely crossing boundaries by communicating so much with this man or any man.
> 
> I think you have the right idea. You will know if you have to investigate, but I suspect in the not too distant future, she will be more worried about you cheating on her. Keep up the good work!:smthumbup:


That was my feeling on the texting with OM #1 as well, it was usually him who would send the first text in the morning. But regardless, it happened, I confronted too soon, never really got any evidence of anything and most likely never will so I have to put it behind me.

It's funny that you say that she'll be more worried about me cheating on her in the future. Since all of this started and I started working out again, I've lost over 25 lbs. I've been doing much more on my own and with my friends and my son and not including her. There are some things that I ask if she wants to join me doing, but if she says no or has something else to do I go do them anyway. Her on the other hand has put on about 10-15 lbs over the last year. She's always saying how she's fat but she never makes any real effort to get to the gym, maybe she goes twice a month. 

Talking with a female friend of mine recently about all this, I was talking about how since I've lost weight she hasn't said anything to me about it. Pretty much all of her friends have said something about the weight loss and how good I look but she still hasn't said a word. I found this odd and told this to my friend, what she said was that my wife most likely hasn't said anything because she's jealous. Not so much about the weight loss but about how a year ago before she put on weight she was probably picturing herself a few years from now in a new relationship with some new guy on her are, and now that image is reversed. She's now picturing me a few years from now with a new woman on my arm. Whether that's true or not I don't know but it kind of makes sense.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

SunCMars said:


> Gawd..don't you hate this.
> 
> I would really want this snooping to end.
> 
> ...


I've done all of that and it's all turned up nothing. That's why I'm backing off for now unless something else comes up. I'm still going to gain access to her phone and look through it when I can but there isn't much point in doing everything else anymore. I don't completely trust her, but I trust her more than I did a month ago so we'll have to see how things go. Divorce is the last option for me, that will happen either when I see things not improving anymore or if I do find proof of a physical affair at some point. As much as I know all of this has been grounds for divorce, we do have a young son, and I don't want to do anything that could hurt him or possibly hurt my relationship with him or how he looks at me unless I really have to. I know that if we did divorce that one day he would understand why but if it happened now he probably wouldn't be able to fully understand all of it for another couple years


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Ahhh!

If it is love that holds you to her and not the financial damage that will ensue, and not the child's response to divorce............... than recapture her.

Do you want her back?

Body and Soul?

I am holding back any further response until I have your answer. 

Are you staying for love or financial convenience or only for the child's welfare?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Either let it go or move on. It's what I did with certain boundaries. My wife knows if it gets as bad as the texting was before, there will be no more chances. I don't check anymore, but she understands a missing text string or out of sequence weirdness and she's out. I'm not a prisoner or a jailer, I refuse to live my life in this fashion. You want out, you want to date, you need something you aren't allegedly getting from me cool, go ahead and do what you want, I am just not going along for the ride.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

SunCMars said:


> Ahhh!
> 
> If it is love that holds you to her and not the financial damage that will ensue, and not the child's response to divorce............... than recapture her.
> 
> ...


I do love her, we do still have a great dynamic together. Yes there have been issues in our marriage on both sides over the last couple years but nothing that cannot be worked out. The only thing that would be a complete deal breaker is if I did find out that there was a physical affair, if that ever did come out I'd file for divorce the next day. People make mistakes and bad choices in life, we're only human. And yes there's a very small part of me that if she had told me she was having an affair when I first confronted her, I probably would've tried to work things out. But at this point, after she has told me numerous times that there was no affairs and that nothing ever happened other than texting, I wouldn't be willing to work things out. 

I make good money and so does she so I'm not staying for financial reasons. Yes I would take a hit if we divorced and split assets but it's nothing I wouldn't recover from. I've actually been planning out my finances and everything for the last few months in case we do split so I'm ready if it happens. Yes I do still love her, we have a great dynamic, great memories, an amazing son, and have built a great life together. That's why I look at divorce as a last resort, we've had a great 13 out of 15 years together, and I don't see a reason to throw that all away because of a couple bad choices....unless there really was an affair. And yes another big reason I haven't left yet is our son. I would never do anything that I know would hurt him like leaving unless I absolutely had to.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Thank you for your honesty.

Yes, she did have an emotional affair, by the way.
..............................................................................................
Honestly, win her back, then.

I would get her alone; your son asleep or with grandparents. 

With both of you naked and standing "toe to toe, boobs to chest".

Squeeze her to you hard, pushing her against the wall.

Gently hold her face and make her look you in the eyes.

Tell her:

I married you for life.
I do not need nor do I want any other women.
I love you with all my heart.
I would die for you, so that you could live.

There is nothing more in life that I want then to hold you like this.
You are wanted and loved more than you can imagine.

I am a jealous man. I am. But that is because I love you and value you above all else.

I hope you feel the same way about me.

Watch her eyes.
If she returns your love and words in a like manner, this is great.

If she hems and haws or brings up past problems, if she averts her eyes and looks down or somewhere else..... you have a problem.

This will reset her love clock. Will it take to the new timezone? Time will tell.
You have put her on notice. Notice her response over the next few weeks.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

SunCMars said:


> Thank you for your honesty.
> 
> Yes, she did have an emotional affair, by the way.
> ..............................................................................................
> ...


I will give it a try. I have said similar things to her in the past, I've told her how I'm all in on working on our problems and putting the past issues behind us. I've told her that I wouldn't have been as upset as I was if I didn't love her and want to be with her. Her response is usually the same "I just don't know right now". She tells me that me blowing up and accusing her of having an affair twice now based on only seeing that she was texting with another man bothers her and that she feels afraid that any time I see that she's texting with someone of the opposite sex that I'm going to jump to the conclusion of an affair. Personally I see that as BS as she knows that I know she has a lot of male friends. She works in a very male dominated industry and I can't really blame on on this one, but she always says how male friends are less drama than females. I know pretty much all of her male friends and I really don't have a problem with any of them at all.

I know that there were feelings for both of these other men and I won't deny that, but I still don't think either of them were ever physical. What I do know is that as long as I keep my guard up that if there was ever something physical that it will come out eventually, nothing stays hidden forever.


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## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

AtMyEnd said:


> I will give it a try. I have said similar things to her in the past, I've told her how I'm all in on working on our problems and putting the past issues behind us. I've told her that I wouldn't have been as upset as I was if I didn't love her and want to be with her. Her response is usually the same "I just don't know right now". She tells me that me blowing up and accusing her of having an affair twice now based on only seeing that she was texting with another man bothers her and that she feels afraid that any time I see that she's texting with someone of the opposite sex that I'm going to jump to the conclusion of an affair. Personally I see that as BS as she knows that I know she has a lot of male friends. She works in a very male dominated industry and I can't really blame on on this one, but she always says how male friends are less drama than females. I know pretty much all of her male friends and I really don't have a problem with any of them at all.
> 
> I know that there were feelings for both of these other men and I won't deny that, but I still don't think either of them were ever physical. What I do know is that as long as I keep my guard up that if there was ever something physical that it will come out eventually, nothing stays hidden forever.


All of this investigating behind her back seems a little crazy to me. Makes you crazy and puts a big chasm between you. You can't be married and love someone you don't trust. So it sounds to me like the issue is not an EA, or a PA it's can you trust your wife? There is nothing less attractive than jealousy and suspicion. But setting boundaries in a relationship is completely fair. To say "I am not comfortable with this constant texting with another man and I completely trust you, but if you don't stop, it's a deal breaker for me". This will make you appear strong and in control of yourself and your boundaries. That's just my opinion. I tell you if I found out my H was reading my emails or reading my texts I would have run out the door. Invasion of privacy is not ok. We all deserve to have some privacy even within our marriages, but we also have the right to tell our partners that we have needs whatever those are, whether or not they seem rational to the other person, they then can agree or not to fulfill them.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

The wife is not helping him in his quandary. She is not soothing his doubts...a tad cold, methinks.

Not soothing, not at all. 

Some of the strong women on TAM will say that he needs to "get over it". Grow a pair. Be strong. Stop snooping. 
But all those texts that she wrote to OM1. Yikes, she is "Iced Tea". And has not trickled out much of it, yet. She is full of dark piss.

The other issue...she has lots of "perceived" admirers at work and probably with vendors, clients. She is sure of her worth. Good for her...bad for you.
Her "I don't know right now" statement is not promising. No, it isn't.

I see compatibility issues here...hear?

Give her the Wall Press. Test her residual equation for your trusting anxious Triggy heart.

Get back to us, with the resultant expression...........on her face.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Keenwa said:


> All of this investigating behind her back seems a little crazy to me. Makes you crazy and puts a big chasm between you. You can't be married and love someone you don't trust. So it sounds to me like the issue is not an EA, or a PA it's can you trust your wife? There is nothing less attractive than jealousy and suspicion. But setting boundaries in a relationship is completely fair. To say "I am not comfortable with this constant texting with another man and I completely trust you, but if you don't stop, it's a deal breaker for me". This will make you appear strong and in control of yourself and your boundaries. That's just my opinion. I tell you if I found out my H was reading my emails or reading my texts I would have run out the door. Invasion of privacy is not ok. We all deserve to have some privacy even within our marriages, but we also have the right to tell our partners that we have needs whatever those are, whether or not they seem rational to the other person, they then can agree or not to fulfill them.



Uh, OK, Keeny wa sabi!

Keeny is one of the stronger ones [earlier mentioned] that has just rolled out of bed, out of the cave door and roared.

Look, his wife was texting "day and night" with a man, not her husband. She lost her right to privacy. 

In your case, you are loyal and do not deserve undue scrutiny.

But keeny, if YOU did this, I would recommend a thorough search of all your hidden, uh, places. Uh, huhh!


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Keenwa said:


> All of this investigating behind her back seems a little crazy to me. Makes you crazy and puts a big chasm between you. You can't be married and love someone you don't trust. So it sounds to me like the issue is not an EA, or a PA it's can you trust your wife? There is nothing less attractive than jealousy and suspicion. But setting boundaries in a relationship is completely fair. To say "I am not comfortable with this constant texting with another man and I completely trust you, but if you don't stop, it's a deal breaker for me". This will make you appear strong and in control of yourself and your boundaries. That's just my opinion. I tell you if I found out my H was reading my emails or reading my texts I would have run out the door. Invasion of privacy is not ok. We all deserve to have some privacy even within our marriages, but we also have the right to tell our partners that we have needs whatever those are, whether or not they seem rational to the other person, they then can agree or not to fulfill them.


For the record I have stopped snooping and investigating. If something happens or she's acting strange somehow, yes I'll sneak a look at her phone to see if there's anything there. 

In my opinion she lost her right to privacy on both occasions. Both times I confronted her and she told me that it was nothing more then her texting with a friend, I asked right then and there to see her phone and let me see the text threads to prove to me that it was nothing more. Both times she outright refused citing they were private conversations with information about the others life that I had no business seeing. That's why I snooped, investigated and did everything else I did. Granted, other then some unexplained suspicious behavior on her part and bizarre mood swings, I didn't find anything that proved my assumptions to be right so I had to let it go. But if she had just been transparent about things when she was confronted about them none of the snooping or spying would've been necessary.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

SunCMars said:


> The wife is not helping him in his quandary. She is not soothing his doubts...a tad cold, methinks.
> 
> Not soothing, not at all.
> 
> ...


See that's one of the things she's always told me she loves about me, that I know she's always around all these men all the time but it never seems to phase me. Yes in the past it never did phase me, I had complete trust in her and she never gave me a reason to doubt that trust. But now something like this happening twice now, whether she did something with them or not that trust has been broken. I have been working on myself a lot, and I haven't been letting her see that any of this still bothers me at all. It's all just going to take time to see how it all plays out.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

AtMyEnd said:


> I will give it a try. I have said similar things to her in the past, I've told her how I'm all in on working on our problems and putting the past issues behind us. I've told her that I wouldn't have been as upset as I was if I didn't love her and want to be with her. *Her response is usually the same "I just don't know right now". She tells me that me blowing up and accusing her of having an affair twice now based on only seeing that she was texting with another man bothers her and that she feels afraid that any time I see that she's texting with someone of the opposite sex that I'm going to jump to the conclusion of an affair. * Personally I see that as BS as she knows that I know she has a lot of male friends. She works in a very male dominated industry and I can't really blame on on this one, but she always says how male friends are less drama than females. I know pretty much all of her male friends and I really don't have a problem with any of them at all.
> 
> I know that there were feelings for both of these other men and I won't deny that, but I still don't think either of them were ever physical. What I do know is that as long as I keep my guard up that if there was ever something physical that it will come out eventually, nothing stays hidden forever.


Sorry dude, this is the case for most women and many do not use any of the excuses you just laid out in the post. Male dominated or not, friends and cordial coworkers are 2 wildly different things. No, she doesn't need "a lot of male friends" at all. This is how men have been hampered in society, by constantly being labeled as controlling. No dude, it is okay to say or feel "nope, you have too many male friends to sustain this marriage." Quite interesting how she left out HER LIES are what made you go down this road. Funny how her actions and your response is considered "extreme jealousy." You caught her more than once. This isn't about extreme anything, but you wanting a normal marriage.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Sorry dude, this is the case for most women and many do not use any of the excuses you just laid out in the post. Male dominated or not, friends and cordial coworkers are 2 wildly different things. No, she doesn't need "a lot of male friends" at all. This is how men have been hampered in society, by constantly being labeled as controlling. No dude, it is okay to say or feel "nope, you have too many male friends to sustain this marriage." *Quite interesting how she left out HER LIES are what made you go down this road*. Funny how her actions and your response is considered "extreme jealousy." You caught her more than once, this isn't about extreme anything, but you wanting a normal marriage.


The funny thing about what I put in bold is that in both cases after things were talked about and calmed down some, I asked her if she had spoken to them since the confrontation. Both times she said no she hadn't and then tried to blame me for ending a friendship and causing her to lose a friend. I threw that back at her real quick telling her that it was her and them who caused all of it and not me. I had even gone as far with the first one to tell her that if it really was just a friend and that he's afraid that I'm going to hurt him or whatever then let the 3 of us sit down and talk. I told her that I don't want her to lose a friend, and I truly don't, so I told her let me explain to him why I got as upset as I did when I saw all the texts. She came back and told me that he told her not to contact him anymore and she knew he wouldn't meet with me. That's when I knew it more than just friends. The second guy I knew and had met. I texted him to confront him basically just telling him that I knew what's been going on and I wanted to know how long it had been going on for, I was fishing for more information. He swore up and down that nothing had ever happened and that they had never been alone together and whatever else. I said a few more things to him and left it that. But it all still comes down to the fact, and I told her this, that if she had just been open with me and told me what had been going on instead of getting defensive about everything, I wouldn't have had a reason to snoop and spy on her. She brought it on herself.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

AtMyEnd said:


> See that's one of the things she's always told me she loves about me, that I know she's always around all these men all the time but it never seems to phase me.


You need to read more threads, your wife is lying in my opinion. This is one of the most common fitness tests around. You see it in many a thread, "I didn't think he cared so, I searched out someone I thought did." You actually have two incidents which actually prove what she says isn't true.

Look, I am not trying to get you to leave, separate, divorce or hurt your marriage. If you want it to stop, you need to see what is going on and put in STRICT boundaries. Otherwise, you'll be playing this game until she leaves you or she crosses your sex line.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

weightlifter said:


> If you went full CIA and found nothing it is time to go dormant for 6 months to a year unless something pops up. 6 months to a year do a light investigation and if it comes up negative wait several years to repeat. Unless something comes up of course.
> 
> Ive been on the inside many times and have seen it where women tell their friends about something, feel guilty and really don't go back to the bad behaviors.
> 
> Several former posters are into one light sweep every year or two for sanity sake.


Wouldn't that be alot of data to go over, two years of phone records? I think after a while you'd put it off since it would be such a daunting task.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

AtMyEnd said:


> The funny thing about what I put in bold is that in both cases after things were talked about and calmed down some, I asked her if she had spoken to them since the confrontation. Both times she said no she hadn't and then tried to blame me for ending a friendship and causing her to lose a friend. I threw that back at her real quick telling her that it was her and them who caused all of it and not me. I had even gone as far with the first one to tell her that if it really was just a friend and that he's afraid that I'm going to hurt him or whatever then let the 3 of us sit down and talk. I told her that I don't want her to lose a friend, and I truly don't, so I told her let me explain to him why I got as upset as I did when I saw all the texts. She came back and told me that he told her not to contact him anymore and she knew he wouldn't meet with me. That's when I knew it more than just friends. The second guy I knew and had met. I texted him to confront him basically just telling him that I knew what's been going on and I wanted to know how long it had been going on for, I was fishing for more information. He swore up and down that nothing had ever happened and that they had never been alone together and whatever else. I said a few more things to him and left it that. But it all still comes down to the fact, and I told her this, that if she had just been open with me and told me what had been going on instead of getting defensive about everything, I wouldn't have had a reason to snoop and spy on her. She brought it on herself.


My wife pulled the friend excuse once. She said something similar followed by, "But I can have male friends." I said "cool, ask your friend if you can move in with him since, my feelings and this marriage aren't as important as your NEW friendships." I then said "You can be friends with whoever you want, but if you want to act single, you need to be single." I then just walked away and wouldn't engage anymore. See, the first thing you have to learn is stop playing word games and letting her deflect things until you get angry. This is dumb circular logic crap and I am not saying it to insult you because I did it as well. Never argue about fault, discuss what you will not accept with no compromise and then stick to your line in the sand. Oh and be prepared to follow ANY consequence you put in place. My wife got to the point I had to tell her to stop showing me every text from a guy, when she worked in a male dominated field.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

AtMyEnd said:


> But it all still comes down to the fact, and I told her this, that if she had just been open with me and told me what had been going on *instead of getting defensive about everything, *I wouldn't have had a reason to snoop and spy on her. She brought it on herself.


Yes, it is called gas-lighting and DARVO.

Gas lighting...making you sound crazy and paranoid for accusing them.

DARVO....deny, attack back, reverse roles accuser/accused, accused being the victim. Accused going on the offensive.
I changed the definition slightly.

Oh, yeah, did she ever apologize for her behavior, her texting another man? Hell no. Where are her boundaries?

This would inspire me to have a women text me and talk to me on the phone to teach her...

Unfortunately, that will backfire. That will give her an excuse to pull [farther away] from the marriage.

Believe me, she is passively looking for excuses to end this marriage. She has not admitted this to you, let alone herself.

She must feel alone in your marriage, else, she would have been texting you, schmoozing you. Comforting you, instead of OM#1.

What a hypocrite!

Let us know how the Wall Press goes. I do not forget what I post....well, sometimes!

If that goes well, take her [alone} on a cool vacation. And do a lot of walks with her. This will force her to open up, to say something. If she hides behind the TV, a book, friends, your child, she can avoid spilling her gut.

When scientists kill a crocodile or an alligator or a shark, they check out their gut. That tells them what the animal has been doing.

In the case of your wife, she needs to spill her gut, to tell you what is on her mind. I guess a MC/IC could help here, if she is willing and honest. So far, I see less than 20/20 vision out of her.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

jb02157 said:


> Wouldn't that be alot of data to go over, two years of phone records? I think after a while you'd put it off since it would be such a daunting task.


Well for the first one I was just looking at her text, call and data logs on our cell carriers website. A couple weeks after I saw nothing else was showing up I stopped. The second one only happened this past February, that's the one I went full CSI on because I actually saw the text from him and what it said. And also being that it was the second time something like this happened I was upset, pissed off, confused and whatever else. I know I went into this mode of "I'm going to find out she's been cheating no matter what" and looking back at that now, it was dumb. It drove me crazy, made me question and be suspicious of every little thing and completely stressed me out. It's probably been about 3 or 4 weeks now that I've backed off. I feel much better mentally, physically and surprisingly much better about the situation as a whole. Another poster said it and I agree, if she wants to cheat she's going to and there's nothing I can do to stop it. The one benefit I have right now is that I know better of what to look for in her behavior and how to look for answers if I need to.


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## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> Uh, OK, Keeny wa sabi!
> 
> Keeny is one of the stronger ones [earlier mentioned] that has just rolled out of bed, out of the cave door and roared.
> 
> ...


No need to insult simply because you disagree Sunny dear. Stronger ones? Yes thank you, I'll take that compliment. You are an angry person but no need to take it out on me, you don't know me from jack so please don't take out your anger towards your ex on me. 

If his wife was texting day and night with a man that should be enough to put some kind of boundary down, why do you need to read the conversations? Anyhow, I would not be in a relationship and be texting another man day and night. I guess if she was acting childish like this then childish behaviour back like snooping is warranted. I just don't understand why there has to be proof, clearly texting another man is just a symptom of a broken marriage. So confront that issue and stop wasting time snooping.


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## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

AtMyEnd said:


> For the record I have stopped snooping and investigating. If something happens or she's acting strange somehow, yes I'll sneak a look at her phone to see if there's anything there.
> 
> In my opinion she lost her right to privacy on both occasions. Both times I confronted her and she told me that it was nothing more then her texting with a friend, I asked right then and there to see her phone and let me see the text threads to prove to me that it was nothing more. Both times she outright refused citing they were private conversations with information about the others life that I had no business seeing. That's why I snooped, investigated and did everything else I did. Granted, other then some unexplained suspicious behavior on her part and bizarre mood swings, I didn't find anything that proved my assumptions to be right so I had to let it go. But if she had just been transparent about things when she was confronted about them none of the snooping or spying would've been necessary.


Hey there, I was simply trying to say that maybe the conversation needs to be more about the fact that you don't feel you can trust her right now and you're not ok with her texting someone. Do you need proof that she cheated to take action? Wouldn't the texting day and night be enough to put an ultimatum on it? Clearly you don't feel happy with this situation regardless of whether you can find "proof"? So letting it go doesn't really work right? I mean there's still a problem. Have you guys tried counselling?


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

SunCMars said:


> Yes, it is called gas-lighting and DARVO.
> 
> Gas lighting...making you sound crazy and paranoid for accusing them.
> 
> ...


We have had problems in the last few years with our marriage, other then this. There was a disconnect between us and a drop in communication, we both admitted that and we also admitted that neither one of us did anything about it which is what led to the beginning of our problems. One thing that she said to me in a conversation about the texts with OM #2 was that she felt it was easy to flirt with him or respond to a flirty text from him because there was no expectation that she'd ever have to follow through with anything, and that with me if she had said something flirty that she would be expected by me to follow through with whatever she said. Personally I didn't buy that but it does make a little sense, but also just points out that there was an EA going on. I have been trying to get her to talk about everything and get all of it out in the open. Her response is usually how she feels uncomfortable because she feels I'm constantly watching and monitoring her, and that she needs to feel comfortable again before she can really start to work on things. Again, I feel that's just another excuse but at the same time it's understandable, which is another reason I've backed off and haven't brought up anything about what's happened or even our relationship or marriage. I've basically pulled the 180 and I'm just letting things play out for a while to see what happens.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Keenwa said:


> No need to insult simply because you disagree Sunny dear. Stronger ones? Yes thank you, I'll take that compliment. You are an angry person but no need to take it out on me, you don't know me from jack so please don't take out your anger towards your ex on me.
> 
> If his wife was texting day and night with a man that should be enough to put some kind of boundary down, why do you need to read the conversations? Anyhow, I would not be in a relationship and be texting another man day and night. I guess if she was acting childish like this then childish behaviour back like snooping is warranted. I just don't understand why there has to be proof, clearly texting another man is just a symptom of a broken marriage. So confront that issue and stop wasting time snooping.


You are right. I asked for this response.

Sorry.

My sense of humor is ingrained in much of what I write. I am not angry. And I know Jack. He and Jill took that tumble down the hill...too much Moonshine, not enough Sunshine.

*The thing is, some people who post here are bland, lack color and are repetitive. I add a little Tabasco sauce into the mix.*
...................................................................................................................................................................

IMO, strong women fire from the hip.

Women have wider hips than men. Their hips [and their firing hand] is further from their "center" of gravity. They emotionally {sometimes} miss the mark. Too much pent-up *anger, maybe at men.

And *that is what you slung onto my post. You projected this projectile onto me.

Maybe I was angry. I missed my nap. 

Just sayin'


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## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

thanks


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

AtMyEnd said:


> So the question here is, when do you feel it's time to stop investigating a possible affair or a known affair that you've been told was over and have begun to reconcile?


For me it was a very gradual ending. After two years, I finally got bored with it because there was no longer anything to see. Being bored was a wonderful feeling. However, one thing will always continue. That is transparency. We both have each other's passwords and we are able to use each other's smart phones at any time.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

AtMyEnd said:


> I have been trying to get her to talk about everything and get all of it out in the open. Her response is usually how she feels uncomfortable because she feels I'm constantly watching and monitoring her, and that she needs to feel comfortable again before she can really start to work on things.


That's the epitome of audacity, in addition to being unremorseful.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Keenwa said:


> Hey there, I was simply trying to say that maybe the conversation needs to be more about the fact that you don't feel you can trust her right now and you're not ok with her texting someone. Do you need proof that she cheated to take action? Wouldn't the texting day and night be enough to put an ultimatum on it? Clearly you don't feel happy with this situation regardless of whether you can find "proof"? So letting it go doesn't really work right? I mean there's still a problem. Have you guys tried counselling?


Well the boundary was sent after the first incident. I know that she has male friends and I have no problem with that. I do have a problem if she's texting with one them 100+ times a day and she knows that, and it did stop after that. With the second incident she was texting using Whatsapp. I only found out about it because I came home late one night and she was sleeping. She fell asleep with her phone in her hand and a finger still on the screen so the phone never locked. I took the phone to put it on the nightstand and happened to see a message asking how I was "being". I looked at who the message was from and wondered why she had been talking to him about our problems. He was more of an acquaintance then a friend to both of us, we play volleyball in the summers in the same league but not the same team. We had become friendly with him and his team because we were all always hanging around after games having beers. But needless to say I thought it strange that she was talking to him about our problems so I started scrolling through the thread. All I saw was typical day to day chat between friends, and then I came across a rather suggestive text from him about a week earlier. I scrolled through the rest of what was there and there was nothing else like that one. I confronted her about it the next morning.

Yes we tried counseling after the first incident, we had actually already started before I found out about it. We went to 3 or 4 session and she decided she didn't want to go anymore because she didn't believe in it. We had both agreed that if both of us weren't in agreement on going that it was pointless. Things were going better at the time so we decided to just work on things ourselves and see what happened, but agreed that if things got real bad again that we'd go back to counseling. After this latest incident and her saying how she wasn't comfortable and couldn't open up, I didn't think the time was right to bring up going back to counseling again and I don't think she'd go anyway. So we're at this point of just going with the flow and seeing what happens. Things have improved so that's a good thing, but yes the question of if it's all really stopped does still pop into my head.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Steve1000 said:


> That's the epitome of audacity, in addition to being unremorseful.


Well I will say that I'm not exactly the nicest person to be around when I really get upset, especially about something like this. I'm not violent or anything like that but I do get loud and yell. That coupled with the feeling of constantly being watched all the time, I do understand it. I think it's a complete excuse but I do understand it, and as things have been improving over the past weeks she has been slowly opening back up, not about what happened but it's still a start.


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## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

AtMyEnd said:


> Well the boundary was sent after the first incident. I know that she has male friends and I have no problem with that. I do have a problem if she's texting with one them 100+ times a day and she knows that, and it did stop after that. With the second incident she was texting using Whatsapp. I only found out about it because I came home late one night and she was sleeping. She fell asleep with her phone in her hand and a finger still on the screen so the phone never locked. I took the phone to put it on the nightstand and happened to see a message asking how I was "being". I looked at who the message was from and wondered why she had been talking to him about our problems. He was more of an acquaintance then a friend to both of us, we play volleyball in the summers in the same league but not the same team. We had become friendly with him and his team because we were all always hanging around after games having beers. But needless to say I thought it strange that she was talking to him about our problems so I started scrolling through the thread. All I saw was typical day to day chat between friends, and then I came across a rather suggestive text from him about a week earlier. I scrolled through the rest of what was there and there was nothing else like that one. I confronted her about it the next morning.
> 
> Yes we tried counseling after the first incident, we had actually already started before I found out about it. We went to 3 or 4 session and she decided she didn't want to go anymore because she didn't believe in it. We had both agreed that if both of us weren't in agreement on going that it was pointless. Things were going better at the time so we decided to just work on things ourselves and see what happened, but agreed that if things got real bad again that we'd go back to counseling. After this latest incident and her saying how she wasn't comfortable and couldn't open up, I didn't think the time was right to bring up going back to counseling again and I don't think she'd go anyway. So we're at this point of just going with the flow and seeing what happens. Things have improved so that's a good thing, but yes the question of if it's all really stopped does still pop into my head.


Yeah that sucks. I think it's a huge red flag when one partner doesn't want to go for counselling or goes in duress or out of obligation but doesn't really care or commit to it. They're telling you loud and clear that they don't want to change, and if you stay you are accepting that. I did it for years. You think because they are "trying" to change that you should give them some slack, but ultimately "trying" isn't good enough. Talking to other people especially people you both know about your relationship is not good. That's what counsellors are for. Sounds like she's playing some serious games with you. It's really hard to see sometimes when we're in it. Good luck with it all, there are no perfect answers. You'll know when you've had enough.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

When the first OM came into the texting scene, that is when male friendships should have ended. Instead, you are still allowing her to run along through that flame like a moth and will most certainly get burned.

She crossed a boundary with the first OM texting party and you failed to nip that in the bud. Time to set some boundaries in regards to friends of the opposite sex as trust has been broken. Why are you afraid of calling a spade a spade? That is what the texting was a full blown EA= a spade.

That would be enough to stop snooping as anything after that has most certainly gone underground. There is a burner phone out there somewhere as her "male friendships" are still active.

You need to honest reading to do and she needs to realize that her behavior is wrong and not one a married woman should engage in if she wants to continue being married plain and simple. 

You two have had a marriage with very poor boundaries and that is evident if she sees having many male friends as OK, It is far from OK.

Do you have many female friends you text and talk too often?

Who gives a rat's behind about a male dominated workplace? That should not bleed into your personal life and much less into the frendship zone or home life. It's just an excuse to get some kibble bits from other men and her feeling desired by a bunch of men that may see her a easy since she offers no way of wanting more with them than a fling or some ego kibbles because she has a husband that allows his wife to give time and attention to a bunch of so called male coworkers/friends.

It's your life, it's you marriage and it is your wife that is messing up here. Maybe you need to start seeking more female friends that may be the future Mrs. in you life.

Just sayin and you can take the advice or not, but loose boundaries make for loose or broken relationships. Very probable recipe for divorce of course!

Books to read: Not Just Friends and Boundaries in marriage, boundaries in the workplace. Don't know the authors anymore as I read them over 10 years ago when my 21 year marriage had extremely poor boundaries. I learned the hard way by the way.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

AtMyEnd said:


> Well I will say that I'm not exactly the nicest person to be around when I really get upset, especially about something like this. I'm not violent or anything like that but I do get loud and yell. That coupled with the feeling of constantly being watched all the time, I do understand it. I think it's a complete excuse but I do understand it, and as things have been improving over the past weeks she has been slowly opening back up, not about what happened but it's still a start.


If you recognize that about yourself, then work hard at staying calm no matter what. If you can do that, she will gradually notice.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Steve1000 said:


> If you recognize that about yourself, then work hard at staying calm no matter what. If you can do that, she will gradually notice.


It's a work in progress but I can say that I have barely even raised my voice since the last confrontation, and even before that the last time I had yelled was the previous confrontation. My biggest problems is that I'm just one of those guys, I'm 6' 3" 225 lbs and just have one of those voices. It's not that I'm mean in any way but I can be intimidating to someone who doesn't know me. I'm a big guy, have a deep voice and at times I'm very direct with what I say.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Bibi1031 said:


> When the first OM came into the texting scene, that is when male friendships should have ended. Instead, you are still allowing her to run along through that flame like a moth and will most certainly get burned.
> 
> She crossed a boundary with the first OM texting party and you failed to nip that in the bud. Time to set some boundaries in regards to friends of the opposite sex as trust has been broken. Why are you afraid of calling a spade a spade? That is what the texting was a full blown EA= a spade.
> 
> ...


Well the majority of her male friends are people she works with, she has to talk to them. She's an attorney and is out of the office in meetings or in court most days as well as the rest of them which is why they all always just text each other. The two men who were involved in the incidents, one I had never met but had heard of from her, and the other I knew from our volleyball league but wouldn't say we were "friends" with and I didn't know she had been texting with him because she did so through Whatsapp. When I found out about it was when I confronted her on it


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

AtMyEnd said:


> It's a work in progress but I can say that I have barely even raised my voice since the last confrontation, and even before that the last time I had yelled was the previous confrontation. My biggest problems is that I'm just one of those guys, I'm 6' 3" 225 lbs and just have one of those voices. It's not that I'm mean in any way but I can be intimidating to someone who doesn't know me. I'm a big guy, have a deep voice and at times I'm very direct with what I say.


I'm also 6'3" or 6'4" and weigh 225 lbs.  However, I don't have the deep voice.....


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Keenwa said:


> No need to insult simply because you disagree Sunny dear. Stronger ones? Yes thank you, I'll take that compliment. You are an angry person but no need to take it out on me, you don't know me from jack so please don't take out your anger towards your ex on me.
> 
> If his wife was texting day and night with a man that should be enough to put some kind of boundary down, why do you need to read the conversations? Anyhow, I would not be in a relationship and be texting another man day and night. I guess if she was acting childish like this then childish behaviour back like snooping is warranted. I just don't understand why there has to be proof, clearly texting another man is just a symptom of a broken marriage. So confront that issue and stop wasting time snooping.


Search light on ^^^

Thanks @Keenwa.

Wanda Keen? Keener? Keenan? I unravel words and women.

For the record...I have no EX. Once I "get em", I never let them get away. I have the same captive.....held against her will for over 45 years !!

I am famous for my Iron Grip.....not necessarily on Reality !!!

Search light off ------__


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I haven't read this entire thread so I'm sorry if I'm repeating things or asking questions over...

Your wife's behavior would drive me nuts too. But it's not ok to be a crazy, controlling, stalking husband, but I would probably drive myself crazy too if my spouse didn't respect my boundaries. 

Here is my thing... Do you think it's ok for your wife to have male friends that she texts with and hangs out with by themselves? Do you have any female friends that you do this with? 

For me, it's absolutely inappropriate and is a huge boundary for me. My husband knows this and respects this. 

When you first discovered her texting with the OM what happened? Did you tell her that you don't want her to be texting any males etc? Or did she just say hey we're friends it's no big deal. Because if you told her that you don't want her texting other men and she did it again without telling you then she is guilty, crossing boundaries and being super disrespectful and I would demand her passwords. If you think it's ok for her to have male friends and text them, then she isn't guilty of anything. 

So my question is... what is your view on her having male friends and did you make your view clear to her? Because it doesn't seem like that boundary was discussed and sorted through to begin with.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I really don't like the book, but you may need to read no more Mr. Nice Guy because you just accept all types of blame for everything. Then you call "BS," but promptly see and understand your wife's argument. Seriously, 225 and 7'10 doesn't matter if you treat her right. It doesn't matter when it comes to her having male friends. Seriously, the more you type the more I see why this continues. Just to be clear, there is no reason to set boundaries if you have zero consequences ready to enact.

Oh and just to point it out, she escalated right? First was caught texting, you told her she was caught, then she moved onto whatsapp.


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## rustybrain (Mar 7, 2016)

The truth always surfaces. In the strangest ways. Live your life as best you can. Accept you found nothing. Then, either break up or go to therapy. There is something amiss here. Your instinct is telling you something. Cheaters eventually get caught. But when they know you are watching they don't unless they want to be caught. You wont her catch her now using these techniques. Drop the suspicions. Either leave the relation or go to therapy.


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## rustybrain (Mar 7, 2016)

Therapy for yourself I should empathize. Mind yourself and prepare mentally. Never dismiss a gut feeling. You are unhappy and there is a reason for it.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

You are in prison.

The women you love is on the other side of your self imposed bars.

She is:

happy.
happy with you.

has integrity. 
has good communication skills.

attractive.
is attracted to you.

is loyal.
quick to show you her love for you.

capable of growing when the need arrives.
desirous of seeing the marriage to the proper end.

not in need of compliments from other men.
ready for your compliments and rewards you with hers.

willing and ready to enjoy things together with you, without complaint.

You are looking at this women right now.

Whoa...who is this women?

Not yours.

Find yours'............... Get divorced.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

So things came to a head last night. Her attitude had been back all weekend and it was no different when she got home last night. She had gone out to have drinks and catch up with a friend, when she got home she didn't even come downstairs, she just sat on the top of the stairs. She said she didn't want to come down because I've been sick and she didn't want my germs. I asked her about her night and she told me, the only thing was was the whole time she talked she not only didn't look at me but she didn't even look in my direction.

When we went up to bed I asked if she needed water, I went to take her glass and glanced at her phone. She was texting away like she always does but I happened to catch a glimpse of the name, it was the "other name" that I knew she had OM #2 in her phone as. I didn't say anything, went and got her water and then laid down. She fell asleep but I couldn't, around 2am I sent her a text telling her that I was done with her dismissive attitude, her lies and hiding things and how she always makes me feel like it's me who needs to be sorry for something. I told her that the ball is in her court now of how she wants to move forward and how I need to hear the words from her of what her decision is, but that she doesn't have a big window to make up her mind.

Around 4am she woke me up asking me what the text was about so I told her that I knew she was still texting with him and I asked her who the name I saw in her phone was. She told me she didn't know and didn't think she had anyone in her phone by that name, so I told her she's lying and told her that I knew it was him. Then I started asking her about other things that I know she's lied about about over the last couple months that she didn't know that I knew about, and again she told me the same stories as last time and I told her I knew they were all lies.

As much as I know they were lies, I also know that the truths that went along with those lies other than the phone listing, were nothing bad, but still lies. I told her that I was done with her lying and excuses and I told her that she has until the end of the month to make a decision on if she wants to try and fix things or just end it. But I told her that I need to hear the words from her, and if she does want to try and fix things that I need to see the effort on her part, and a real effort. I also told her that if she didn't tell me her decision by the end of the month that I'll be in the lawyers office the following day to start filing for divorce. She kept trying to throw back her lying on me and blaming me for why she felt she needed to lie. I told her it's just another excuse and it's time to make a decision. I'm done living like this and I can't live with someone I constantly have to second guess and question if they're being honest. So 2 weeks until decision day, let's see what happens. Either way I'm ready.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

So did she admit to texting the OM? So you gave her two weeks? Haven't you been through this already? Tell her this, "Oops...I lied.....it was just two days.....I'm out".


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> My wife pulled the friend excuse once. She said something similar followed by, "But I can have male friends." I said "cool, ask your friend if you can move in with him since, my feelings and this marriage aren't as important as your NEW friendships." I then said "You can be friends with whoever you want, but if you want to act single, you need to be single." I then just walked away and wouldn't engage anymore. See, the first thing you have to learn is stop playing word games and letting her deflect things until you get angry. This is dumb circular logic crap and I am not saying it to insult you because I did it as well. Never argue about fault, discuss what you will not accept with no compromise and then stick to your line in the sand. Oh and be prepared to follow ANY consequence you put in place. My wife got to the point I had to tell her to stop showing me every text from a guy, when she worked in a male dominated field.


Yep that kind of thing is more trouble then it's worth especially if you have any experience with someone who is not so trifling.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

AtMyEnd said:


> We have had problems in the last few years with our marriage, other then this. There was a disconnect between us and a drop in communication, we both admitted that and we also admitted that neither one of us did anything about it which is what led to the beginning of our problems. One thing that she said to me in a conversation about the texts with OM #2 was that she felt it was easy to flirt with him or respond to a flirty text from him because there was no expectation that she'd ever have to follow through with anything, and that with me if she had said something flirty that she would be expected by me to follow through with whatever she said. Personally I didn't buy that but it does make a little sense, but also just points out that there was an EA going on. I have been trying to get her to talk about everything and get all of it out in the open. Her response is usually how she feels uncomfortable because she feels I'm constantly watching and monitoring her, and that she needs to feel comfortable again before she can really start to work on things. Again, I feel that's just another excuse but at the same time it's understandable, which is another reason I've backed off and haven't brought up anything about what's happened or even our relationship or marriage. I've basically pulled the 180 and I'm just letting things play out for a while to see what happens.


Eventually you may just get tired of living like this. You know marriage doesn't have to be like this having your wife gaslight you, watching her desperate for attention form someone besides you, she is not some irreplaceable flower. The sooner you get over putting her on a pedestal and trying to make her not cheat the better you will be. Give up, not divorce but give up. Tell her you are tired and pretty much done with the bull**** and 180, hard. Start to detach and see where you are in a few months, maybe in a few months you will just be done. Life is too short to deal with this crap for a lifetime. A marriage takes 2 committed people.

In my mind this is 2 EA more then enough grounds.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Bibi1031 said:


> Who gives a rat's behind about a male dominated workplace? That should not bleed into your personal life and much less into the frendship zone or home life.


Yeah does one person here text with someone from work 100 times a day? For month on end?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

AtMyEnd said:


> So things came to a head last night. Her attitude had been back all weekend and it was no different when she got home last night. She had gone out to have drinks and catch up with a friend, when she got home she didn't even come downstairs, she just sat on the top of the stairs. She said she didn't want to come down because I've been sick and she didn't want my germs. I asked her about her night and she told me, the only thing was was the whole time she talked she not only didn't look at me but she didn't even look in my direction.
> 
> When we went up to bed I asked if she needed water, I went to take her glass and glanced at her phone. She was texting away like she always does but I happened to catch a glimpse of the name, it was the "other name" that I knew she had OM #2 in her phone as. I didn't say anything, went and got her water and then laid down. She fell asleep but I couldn't, around 2am I sent her a text telling her that I was done with her dismissive attitude, her lies and hiding things and how she always makes me feel like it's me who needs to be sorry for something. I told her that the ball is in her court now of how she wants to move forward and how I need to hear the words from her of what her decision is, but that she doesn't have a big window to make up her mind.
> 
> ...


So I was right 2 posts ago, you did finally get tired but not tired enough. 

Dude this is the 3rd time now. She is not going to change because she doesn't want to. Giving her 2 weeks is only giving her time to placate you for another few months. She is toxic. You don't know what life can be like with a person who actually only wants you. It is nothing like what you are putting up with. It's SO much better, if you only knew you wouldn't be wasting your time on this bull****.

You are going to be 10 years over this women and she will have some other poor schlep investigating her while she secretly goes out with he boyfriends and text them 100 times a day. This is the type of person she is. She is broken and needs constant attention, she is really not the marring kind.


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

AtMyEnd said:


> around 2am I sent her a text telling her that I was done with her dismissive attitude, her lies and hiding things and how she always makes me feel like it's me who needs to be sorry for something. I told her that the ball is in her court now of how she wants to move forward and how I need to hear the words from her of what her decision is, but that she doesn't have a big window to make up her mind ...
> 
> and I told her that she has until the end of the month to make a decision on if she wants to try and fix things or just end it. But I told her that I need to hear the words from her, and if she does want to try and fix things that I need to see the effort on her part, and a real effort. I also told her that if she didn't tell me her decision by the...


I think you need to give yourself permission to stop the posturing and endless monitoring, conditions and deadlines. Just get it over with already. Trust your gut ... it hasn't been lying to you. If you cut her loose now without all this intricate dancing around the core issue you will salvage your dignity better than otherwise. 

Many folks don't realize their spouse does not need an affair partner in order to be disloyal to the marriage. In fact the discovery of an affair partner is often extraneous to the betrayal of the marriage because before the consummation of the affair can occur there must first be the presence of elements such as indifference, neglect, contempt, etc. I consider these elements to be predecessors to adultery and practically just as worthy of divorce. 

Because of my life experience I know without a doubt that if I felt the need to monitor my spouse as you have I would end the relationship if it got to that point. If I can't trust my spouse I would divorce her for that sole reason as readily as if she had sex with another guy.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

sokillme said:


> So I was right 2 posts ago, you did finally get tired but not tired enough.
> 
> Dude this is the 3rd time now. She is not going to change because she doesn't want to. Giving her 2 weeks is only giving her time to placate you for another few months. She is toxic. You don't know what life can be like with a person who actually only wants you. It is nothing like what you are putting up with. It's SO much better, if you only knew you wouldn't be wasting your time on this bull****.
> 
> You are going to be 10 years over this women and she will have some other poor schlep investigating her while she secretly goes out with he boyfriends and text them 100 times a day. This is the type of person she is. She is broken and needs constant attention, she is really not the marring kind.


Well giving her 2 weeks was mainly because we do have some family plans that are already set over the next 2 weeks and our annual Memorial Day BBQ that is already set with about 100 people coming. And yes as much as I did find her texting him again, I am still 99.9% certain that nothing physical has ever happened between them. But regardless of that I'm still done dealing with the BS. We went back and forth most of the day yesterday talking and arguing about things by text. By the end of the day things had settled down and she gave me the same old "I just need time and space to think right now". I told her that's fine but but we do need to finally sit down and talk about everything and come to some kind of resolve and that needs to happen by the end of the month.

I know most of you are going to yell at me but yes, I do love her and if she does finally sit down to talk about all of our problems, agrees to finally make an effort to fix things, and I see that she really is making an effort, I will stay and try to make things work. We have both done things over the last few years to damage our relationship and marriage and we are both at fault for not doing anything about it or going about it the wrong way. Oddly enough when we go out together in a social setting or even just the two of us sitting outside relaxing and talking about whatever, we do still get along, have a good time and still have a great dynamic together. It's a very strange situation because of those factors and adding in our amazing son to the equation it makes things even harder.

Everything I know that she has lied about or hidden from me for the past few months has been laid out on the table, she now knows what I know and she knows that if it's not finally dealt with that it's over between us. I told her she has until the end of the month so that's exactly what I'm giving her. If she finally wants to actively work on things, that's great and I welcome it. If not, that's fine too, I have everything in place already to be out and settled somewhere else within a week.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

AtMyEnd said:


> Everything I know that she has lied about or hidden from me for the past few months has been laid out on the table, she now knows what I know and she knows that if it's not finally dealt with that it's over between us. I told her she has until the end of the month so that's exactly what I'm giving her. If she finally wants to actively work on things, that's great and I welcome it. If not, that's fine too, I have everything in place already to be out and settled somewhere else within a week.


Working on things needs to mean she needs to find out why she seeks out attention from men who are not her husband, and earnestly change her nature. 

This may be a good place to start.

I would be concerned that now she knows have been keeping tabs on her she will just get better at hiding stuff. She can say all the right stuff in the world but if she is not willing to deal (meaning acknowledging that it's a problem first, and then working to change her nature) you are going to be right back here in a few month. Possibly with a person who has now taken more steps to isolate herself from consequences. In other words you are wasting your bullets, you only get so many. People who behave like your wife are the kinds who end up giving their spouses the "I love you but not in love with you speech" and shacking up with their new boyfriend at a drop of a dime. 

This is not just someone who doesn't know what they are doing or even had a one night stand, this is a person who has very serious boundary issues, she has been continually hiding relationships with men from her husband. If she didn't know it was wrong she wouldn't be hiding it. Even if none of here EA have gotten physical yet eventually this is where they all end up. She needs to understand what she is doing, where it will end up, and be willing to change her nature. Right now it seems you put the fear of God into her and she placates you for a while. Changes made from duress seldom last, they go away when the duress goes away. The motivation has to come from a deep feeling of remorse for any of it to be effective. Don't you want a women who just wants to be with you, who wants to text you 100x during the day? Who wants to go out to dinner with you after work? That is out there for you. 

You may love her, but love is not enough, you can also love another one day. You don't know how badly you are settling to have a spouse that you have to treat like a petulant teenager. It is not what a marriage is meant to be. Some people never grow up they just transfer the role their parents played in their loves to their spouses.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I've been here too long. Stop it, this is you procrastinating and it has ZERO to do with family. It is you being scared to blow up your marriage. I could get you over a hundred threads with people saying:
Birthday
Family
Christmas
New Years
Anniversary
Children
Some Truths
etc.

No, you are hoping she'll come with a somewhat rationale explanation so, you can continue in your comfortable limbo. Oh and you love the idea of your previous wife, this is not the same person any longer. Still, love her and do what you want, but when the hammer drops it is going to hurt that much worse.



> "I just need time and space to think right now"


I printed out divorce papers and packed my wife's bags the next day after her little "I can have male friends blah blah blah" comment. I was close, very close to divorcing her with this comment. If she would have said this, you said it has been stated more than once, I'd be the often insulted so called "bitter man" people complain about on this board. Nope, you don't need to think about me vs another man, it means you are freeloading in our marriage. I am out.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

AtMyEnd said:


> So things came to a head last night. Her attitude had been back all weekend and it was no different when she got home last night. She had gone out to have drinks and catch up with a friend, when she got home she didn't even come downstairs, she just sat on the top of the stairs. She said she didn't want to come down because I've been sick and she didn't want my germs. I asked her about her night and she told me, the only thing was was the whole time she talked she not only didn't look at me but she didn't even look in my direction.
> 
> When we went up to bed I asked if she needed water, I went to take her glass and glanced at her phone. She was texting away like she always does but I happened to catch a glimpse of the name, it was the "other name" that I knew she had OM #2 in her phone as. I didn't say anything, went and got her water and then laid down. She fell asleep but I couldn't, around 2am I sent her a text telling her that I was done with her dismissive attitude, her lies and hiding things and how she always makes me feel like it's me who needs to be sorry for something. I told her that the ball is in her court now of how she wants to move forward and how I need to hear the words from her of what her decision is, but that she doesn't have a big window to make up her mind.
> 
> ...


Dude. As long as you continue to engage, she will throw it back at you.

No more threats. No more ultimatums. No more interrogations. All that does is communicate that you need her more than she needs you. You are enabling her to gaslight you by insisting that she see it your way. She does not have to see it your way. Period. But that also means that it is time for you to move on.

"Your actions tell me all I need to know about our marriage. I will not remain in a relationship with someone who constantly lies, and then gaslights me."

When she tries to say she doesn't lie:

"I am not okay with lying to cover your lies."

You see, it is not a debate. You are not open to seeing it her way. Period. That is why you state only your truth, then walk away.

But seriously, dude, how long will you put up with this?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You seriously want to *talk* with her _again_? So she can gaslight you _again_?

Talk less, do more.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I've been here too long. Stop it, this is you procrastinating and it has ZERO to do with family. It is you being scared to blow up your marriage. I could get you over a hundred threads with people saying:
> Birthday
> Family
> Christmas
> ...


QFT.

You are scared, and talking is your method to avoid taking action.

Talk less, do more.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Dude. As long as you continue to engage, she will throw it back at you.
> 
> No more threats. No more ultimatums. No more interrogations. All that does is communicate that you need her more than she needs you. You are enabling her to gaslight you by insisting that she see it your way. She does not have to see it your way. Period. But that also means that it is time for you to move on.
> 
> ...


I have done and tried everything to get her to open up and just talk about our problems and what's been going on and she she always makes an excuse why she doesn't feel comfortable enough to talk. This IS the last straw, everything that I know about what's been going on has been laid out there so she knows that I know she's been hiding things and lying. If she doesn't finally talk about things now then I know she never will. I told her she has until the end of the month and I will give her until then and THAT'S IT.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I will say it is hard not to right fight. This is what you are doing and it needs to stop. I said it earlier and now FSJ is saying it again. Stop these circular arguments. If I catch you stealing, I do not need to ask you what the hell you are doing, I call the cops and let them decide. About a decade or longer, my kid stole from a store. When I talked the store out of calling the cops, I lit him up when we got home. I didn't give him a chance to lie, I told him how it would be. Why? You got caught stealing and there is nothing you can say which will mitigate what I saw on the cameras. He did the "but dad" and I stopped it cold.

Yes, your wife is acting like a child. You caught her in a lie. I mean what type of person uses a similar name to contact someone? Unless, of course, you are TRYING to set someone on edge or needle them. She woke you up at 4 and you spilled your guts. She knows EXACTLY what to do because you change nothing and do the same things. You'll put, mull over the marriage, get distant and in two weeks love will conquer all. Then, in a few months, she'll start up again. You know, because she has just proven to you she loves male attention.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

AtMyEnd,

You mention that you had an EA, was your W ever given just compensation to her for the EA?

Did you EA occur before W started her EAs.

Is your EA person still in your life, or close by, did you give your W a complete and detailed confession?

Your W may feel that she does not owe you the truth since she never got the truth.

Did you make your apology to the EAs spouse or SO?

Although your W may say she has forgiven you she may only have given up because she never expects to get honest from you.

Tamat


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## Sparta (Sep 4, 2014)

Dude come on really it's like you trying to force something that's just not gonna happen your wife is a tramp... and the way you act OK I don't care how big you are six whatever 200 and whatever. OK you know what she sees a week pathetic man.! She has absolutely no respect for you, by the way when she was describing her night out to you, where she was with the OM Having sex OK. Look it's not that she has guilt.! (she should because she's having an affair, a physical affair) sorry to break the news to you, adults have sex. People don't talk on the phone for months for nothing. People have sex. The most unattractive thing to a woman is a weak man, Women despise a week man. Every time you have these so called talks with her and she doesn't have to deal with any real consequences. The more she loses respect and attractiveness towards you. In reality your marriage is over. there's no coming back she's has no desire to work on the marriage because she is will aware your marriage done and over with. In her wayward thinking it's too easy for her to find a real man out there. Sorry buddy


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

TAMAT said:


> AtMyEnd,
> 
> You mention that you had an EA, was your W ever given just compensation to her for the EA?
> 
> ...


My EA occurred before any of hers. We had been having problems and she disconnected. I tried to talk to her about our problems to work on things but she just seemed to keep withdrawing without reason at the time. I became depressed, put on weight and wasn't sleeping. I started playing an online game at night since I barely ever slept and ended up chatting with another woman 1000 miles away. We had a lot in common and over time chatting with her at night seemed to fill the void I was missing from my wife, the feeling of being wanted. She knew my situation and very often gave me advice on things to do to help work on things. We both talked about it and knew that we never had any intention of becoming a part of each others lives face to face, we never met in person and we never even spoke, we only texted.

My wife suspected something was going on so she started snooping. She hacked my passwords for my Skype account, my email, my phone and my computer. She saw texts back and forth between us, nothing sexual in nature, just day to day kind of things talking about life and my marriage. She confronted me about it and I told her everything. I explained what led up to me starting to play the game, how we met, what we talked about, everything. I gave her full access to everything and answered every question she asked me about it, I didn't hide a thing. I figured at that point she knew and there was no reason to lie. I also felt that if I explained everything, including how I never set out to have an EA and it just happened, that maybe it would spark something in her to want to actively talk and work on our problems. I have apologized over and over to her for it, I've told her numerous times how I regret it everyday.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Did you exchange I Love Yous with the other woman? From what you wrote it was not an EA. It was a close confidant type of relationship, and certainly it crossed some lines of marital confidentiality. What you wrote doesn't sound different from the kinds of conversations we have here except it is completely anonymous here.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Thor said:


> Did you exchange I Love Yous with the other woman? From what you wrote it was not an EA. It was a close confidant type of relationship, and certainly it crossed some lines of marital confidentiality. What you wrote doesn't sound different from the kinds of conversations we have here except it is completely anonymous here.


We did exchange I Love You's, but it wasn't in an "I'm in love with you" kind of way. We chatted together for over a year and became really good friends. She was not in a relationship at the time we met but her son was the same age as mine, her ex was an attorney like my wife, and many of the problems that she had in her relationship with him were almost identical to the problems my wife and I have and have had. We had a lot in common and things just clicked. We talked about life, our lives, problems and whatever else. She helped and gave me advice on how I could try and work on the issues in my marriage, she really did just become a very good friend. Like I said in a previous post, talking to her seemed to fill a void of what I was missing , wanting and trying to get from my wife. She was always there for me and listened when I needed to vent. There was that feeling of caring that I didn’t feel from my wife, but that really is where it stopped.

We both knew and had spoken about how neither one of us ever had any intention of having any type of “relationship” together. The only way we ever communicated was by text, we never spoke to each other and we never met. We had the opportunity to meet at one point and we both decided that it wasn’t really a good idea. We were both happy with our little texting relationship and felt that if we actually met that that may change the relationship that we had and were happy with.

I know that I crossed lines by doing what I did, but at the time I didn’t really see anything wrong with what I was doing. The way I looked at it was I was texting with someone 1000 miles away that I never intended to meet or have a romantic relationship with. I talked to her and asked advice on my marriage mostly. I thought of her as a female perspective into the problems I was having. When my wife found out about it, I told her that I understood her feelings on it and why she was upset. I told her and explained everything about it to her. I told her when it started, what we talked about, everything I knew about her, and even gave my wife her email address and told her to contact her if she wanted. Any question my wife asked me about it I answered, I didn’t hide anything. I apologized to her, asked how I could make it up to her and cut ties with the other woman. Periodically I offered my wife my phone and email to show her that I hadn’t been communicating with her.

And I guess one of the biggest things that bothers me about my situation now is that when she caught and confronted me, I told her everything, anything she wanted to know I told her. I offered her all my passwords and access to everything anytime she wanted it. But now when I’ve found her doing similar things and confronted her, not only has she gotten defensive about all of it but she never wants to speak about it or tell me what’s going on. She’s told me that there were no affairs, that nothing has ever happened and that she’s upset that I would accuse her of that. But that’s it, she’s never really apologized for any of it and always makes me out to be the person who’s done something wrong by accusing her.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> Exactly, but even though about a months worth of investigating turned up nothing, I still kept looking. It wasn't until after I found nothing that she realized I was watching her like a hawk. It was like I was so focused on finding something that I just couldn't stop and that obsession made her notice that I was watching her.
> 
> But recenty there have been a few discussions on here about investigating the possibility of an affair or an affair that the BS was told had been ended. In most of those the BS hasn't found anything to back up their suspicions so should they keep digging? Like really, when is enough, enough?


You already have evidence that she was texting with OM1 all day. You have evidence of flirty emails and a suggestive text from OM2.

Personally, I think this is enough evidence to treat her behavior like two EAs. The sheer volume of OM1 and flirty behavior with OM2 show that she's got the door open to other men. I'd move forward with the plan in Surviving an Affair and let your wife know in no uncertain terms that she has poor boundaries with men and therefore needs to implement precautions to keep this from happening again.

Sorry you're going through this. She does not respect your marriage.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> We did exchange I Love You's, but it wasn't in an "I'm in love with you" kind of way. We chatted together for over a year and became really good friends. She was not in a relationship at the time we met but her son was the same age as mine, her ex was an attorney like my wife, and many of the problems that she had in her relationship with him were almost identical to the problems my wife and I have and have had. We had a lot in common and things just clicked. We talked about life, our lives, problems and whatever else. She helped and gave me advice on how I could try and work on the issues in my marriage, she really did just become a very good friend. Like I said in a previous post, talking to her seemed to fill a void of what I was missing , wanting and trying to get from my wife. She was always there for me and listened when I needed to vent. There was that feeling of caring that I didn’t feel from my wife, but that really is where it stopped.
> .
> .
> .


I don't see this as a real EA. It was inappropriate. It crossed some boundaries. But it doesn't sound like a love affair. Your wife had every reason to feel hurt by it. I don't disagree about that, and I don't disagree with how you gave her full access to all your electronics etc.

What you did just doesn't rise to a level justifying your wife having some kind of revenge affairs. Iow, I don't think you should accept blame for her actions because of your electronic relationship with this woman.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

According to Shirley Glass's definition in Not Just Friends, what you had was an EA (sharing emotional feelings and discussing your marriage with the OW):

https://www.shirleyglass.com/qa_friends.htm#molehill

It sounds to me like you both have poor boundaries with the opposite sex, and as you're seeing, this can destroy marriages.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

AtMyEnd said:


> We did exchange I Love You's, but it wasn't in an "I'm in love with you" kind of way. We chatted together for over a year and became really good friends. She was not in a relationship at the time we met but her son was the same age as mine, her ex was an attorney like my wife, and many of the problems that she had in her relationship with him were almost identical to the problems my wife and I have and have had. We had a lot in common and things just clicked. We talked about life, our lives, problems and whatever else. She helped and gave me advice on how I could try and work on the issues in my marriage, she really did just become a very good friend. Like I said in a previous post, talking to her seemed to fill a void of what I was missing , wanting and trying to get from my wife. She was always there for me and listened when I needed to vent. There was that feeling of caring that I didn’t feel from my wife, but that really is where it stopped.
> 
> We both knew and had spoken about how neither one of us ever had any intention of having any type of “relationship” together. The only way we ever communicated was by text, we never spoke to each other and we never met. We had the opportunity to meet at one point and we both decided that it wasn’t really a good idea. We were both happy with our little texting relationship and felt that if we actually met that that may change the relationship that we had and were happy with.
> 
> ...


Oh boy, why did you not make this plain in the first post? Certainly seems relevant. Maybe you did. I would like to rethink all my advice now. Go get Marriage counseling.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Thor said:


> I don't see this as a real EA. It was inappropriate. It crossed some boundaries. But it doesn't sound like a love affair. Your wife had every reason to feel hurt by it. I don't disagree about that, and I don't disagree with how you gave her full access to all your electronics etc.
> 
> What you did just doesn't rise to a level justifying your wife having some kind of revenge affairs. Iow, I don't think you should accept blame for her actions because of your electronic relationship with this woman.


I think most people are going to see saying I love you in text to the opposite sex no matter what the context as an EA. Unless this is the kind of thing that existed from before the relationship started. Even so I wonder how many would really be cool with that.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

sokillme said:


> I think most people are going to see saying I love you in text to the opposite sex no matter what the context as an EA. Unless this is the kind of thing that existed from before the relationship started. Even so I wonder how many would really be cool with that.


I’m in no way denying that I had feelings for this woman or that what I had was or was not an EA. I did have feelings for her and yes there were times I thought about what it would be like between us if we ever did meet, but I still had no intention of doing so. I looked at it as a temporary escape from my real life and problems, something to fill that void I was missing from my wife. I know it was wrong and I know I crossed boundaries, I can’t even count how many times it’s come up since then and I’ve apologized over and over again and told my wife how much I regret it ever happened. If I could go back in time and change all of it I would do so in half a heartbeat but I can’t.

And the strange thing is that I’ve been looking through old emails between us talking about arguments we’ve had and everything else throughout the last 2 years. Being that back then every time we tried to talk it would turn into an argument or she’d tell me she didn’t want to talk, I felt that sending an email was a good way to communicate, and it was. What I noticed was that up until I confronted her the first time about texting another man her emails did seem positive, but the emails talking about things after I confronted her all seemed to have that same defensive tone of how dare I accuse her of something and that she didn’t feel comfortable enough to talk. But yet in every email I did tell her that we both just needed to sit down and talk about things so that we both knew and understood what the other was feeling and why and that without any communication about our problems nothing positive would ever be accomplished.

And like now, her big thing towards me is how I snooped and spied and found out things she was hiding and invading her privacy. And I think to myself, well if she had just talked to me about things, answered questions I asked about things and had just been open about things, there never would’ve been a reason to spy on her.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

If you had feelings for the OW and demonstrated this by showing her care and saying "I love you," then you had an EA. I'd address it for what it was since your wife is now doing the same thing and you both need to realize that you're going to continue to be susceptible to getting your intimate needs met outside of the marriage until you implement extraordinary precautions.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Oh boy, why did you not make this plain in the first post? Certainly seems relevant. Maybe you did. I would like to rethink all my advice now. Go get Marriage counseling.


This was in his previous thread.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> And like now, her big thing towards me is how I snooped and spied and found out things she was hiding and invading her privacy. And I think to myself, well if she had just talked to me about things, answered questions I asked about things and had just been open about things, there never would’ve been a reason to spy on her.


She is able to hide things from you because this is the type of marriage you have: you are both guilty of independent behavior in your marriage. In a healthy marriage, spouses are interdependent. You both need to do more than apologize to each other- you need to stop committing independent behavior, in which you do things without considering your spouse's feelings. Privacy is for the bathroom- not for the ability to get intimate needs met outside of marriage. You have every right to know what is going on in your marriage. I'd make transparency a condition to staying married to you.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> According to Shirley Glass's definition in Not Just Friends, what you had was an EA (sharing emotional feelings and discussing your marriage with the OW):
> 
> https://www.shirleyglass.com/qa_friends.htm#molehill
> 
> It sounds to me like you both have poor boundaries with the opposite sex, and as you're seeing, this can destroy marriages.



I agree and disagree with you on that one. I don’t really see discussing feelings, your marriage or your problems in your marriage with another person of the opposite sex as an EA. Sometimes things happen in marriage and in life that we are just not capable of understanding. And when those things have to do with your spouse it helps to have someone of the opposite sex to talk to about it to try and get that perspective. That’s one of the reasons I did talk to the other woman all the time. The advice she gave me of what my wife may be thinking or why she may have done or said something she did, not only helped me understand better but was usually dead on right. And again, not to make light of me having an EA, but in all honesty I feel that if I had never had the EA, I would’ve given up and have been divorced a long time ago. Yes maybe that might have been a good thing too, but it’s not what I want or even wanted then. I love my wife, I really do, and I just want an opportunity to get both of us to honestly and actively confront our issues, talk about them and try to see if we can fix what’s been broken.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

You can disagree that exchanging "I love you's" with a woman you have feelings for is an EA, but it doesn't matter if you agree- it matters that it deeply hurt your wife. I'd be very hurt if my husband did that to me, and I would consider it an EA, which in my marriage, is all that matters. If I do anything that deeply hurts my husband, even if I don't think it should hurt him, I need to not only apologize, but do whatever I can to make sure it doesn't happen again.

And I'll point out that disagreeing is not serving you now in your marriage. Your wife is exhibiting the same behavior and it is hurting you. If she disagrees that you should be bothered and continues texting all day with OM, and exchanging suggestive texts and flirty emails, how would you feel?

You can fix what is broken, but only if you recognize that getting your emotional needs met outside of marriage is not ok, and you both have poor boundaries around the opposite sex.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

You gave your wife two weeks. Ok, in two weeks she can retain a divorce lawyer, file temp orders removing you from your home, continue contact with her OM and planning a life that doesn't include you! Start believing that this is a very possible scenario.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> I agree and disagree with you on that one. I don’t really see discussing feelings, your marriage or your problems in your marriage with another person of the opposite sex as an EA. Sometimes things happen in marriage and in life that we are just not capable of understanding. And when those things have to do with your spouse it helps to have someone of the opposite sex to talk to about it to try and get that perspective. That’s one of the reasons I did talk to the other woman all the time. The advice she gave me of what my wife may be thinking or why she may have done or said something she did, not only helped me understand better but was usually dead on right. And again, not to make light of me having an EA, but in all honesty I feel that if I had never had the EA, I would’ve given up and have been divorced a long time ago. Yes maybe that might have been a good thing too, but it’s not what I want or even wanted then. I love my wife, I really do, and I just want an opportunity to get both of us to honestly and actively confront our issues, talk about them and try to see if we can fix what’s been broken.


I hear you that you really love your wife, which is why I hope you'll realize how slippery the slope is of behaving this way with the OS. Your lack of boundaries and confiding in another woman about your marriage led to developing feelings for this woman. Your wife is now doing the same to you. If this continues, I predict D either way. Your best bet at this point is to treat both your EA and her EAs as serious enough to warrant a change in your boundaries with the OS and implement precautions in your marriage to ensure this doesn't happen again. Getting your emotional needs met by the OS creates a distant, detached marriage, which ultimately, can't be sustained unless you're willing to look the other way (or agree to have an open marriage).


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> I hear you that you really love your wife, which is why I hope you'll realize how slippery the slope is of behaving this way with the OS. Your lack of boundaries and confiding in another woman about your marriage led to developing feelings for this woman. Your wife is now doing the same to you. If this continues, I predict D either way. Your best bet at this point is to treat both your EA and her EAs as serious enough to warrant a change in your boundaries with the OS and implement precautions in your marriage to ensure this doesn't happen again. Getting your emotional needs met by the OS creates a distant, detached marriage, which ultimately, can't be sustained unless you're willing to look the other way (or agree to have an open marriage).



But that’s the problem, she doesn’t she what she did as an EA in either case. She still insists that OM #1 was nothing more than a good friend that she talked to about life, our problems and work related advice, and she she’s still sticking to the incident with OM #2 as an unsolicited text that she didn’t entertain. 

She sees me as the person who saw something that wasn’t what it was and jumped to conclusions by accusing her of having affairs, even though I never did directly accuse. In both cases I started the confrontation as telling her what I saw and asking her to explain it. 

I agree that if all this continues with no communication or any type of resolve that divorce is imminent but she doesn’t seem to want to actually do anything that really addresses our issues in a positive way. She has told me how if she didn’t want to try that she wouldn’t still be with me and she’s said how she’s still here so that should count for something, but she hasn’t made one real attempt to actually do anything productive.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> But that’s the problem, she doesn’t she what she did as an EA in either case. She still insists that OM #1 was nothing more than a good friend that she talked to about life, our problems and work related advice, and she she’s still sticking to the incident with OM #2 as an unsolicited text that she didn’t entertain.
> 
> She sees me as the person who saw something that wasn’t what it was and jumped to conclusions by accusing her of having affairs, even though I never did directly accuse. In both cases I started the confrontation as telling her what I saw and asking her to explain it.
> 
> I agree that if all this continues with no communication or any type of resolve that divorce is imminent but she doesn’t seem to want to actually do anything that really addresses our issues in a positive way. She has told me how if she didn’t want to try that she wouldn’t still be with me and she’s said how she’s still here so that should count for something, but she hasn’t made one real attempt to actually do anything productive.


I'd start by approaching it from this angle: Wife, I love you and want to improve our marriage. It bothers me that you are texting with other men. I'm not ok with the suggestive texts/emails and private communication with other men. I'm willing to hold myself to the same standard, but I need you to stop what you're doing for the sake of our marriage.

Then watch how she handles this- if she continues, she's showing you that she does not care if she hurts you. My point is that in marriage, it doesn't matter if she agrees with you- she needs to simply stop doing anything that bothers/hurts you, because as your wife, she needs to show you extraordinary care.

If she refuses, you will have to think hard about whether you're willing to live with the constant threat of an EA lurking over your marriage. Personally, I wouldn't.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> I'd start by approaching it from this angle: Wife, I love you and want to improve our marriage. It bothers me that you are texting with other men. I'm not ok with the suggestive texts/emails and private communication with other men. I'm willing to hold myself to the same standard, but I need you to stop what you're doing for the sake of our marriage.
> 
> Then watch how she handles this- if she continues, she's showing you that she does not care if she hurts you. My point is that in marriage, it doesn't matter if she agrees with you- she needs to simply stop doing anything that bothers/hurts you, because as your wife, she needs to show you extraordinary care.
> 
> If she refuses, you will have to think hard about whether you're willing to live with the constant threat of an EA lurking over your marriage. Personally, I wouldn't.




Honestly Jess I think it’s past that point. The biggest issue right now is that she still stands by her story of that nothing ever happened, she did nothing wrong and I’m blowing everything up based on false assumptions. I know what’s been going on, I’ve seen the evidence, I’ve told her what I know but yet she still won’t admit to any wrong doings or even apologize. I haven’t spoken to her in a few days, it’s a really strange feeling living with someone and not speaking to them but I’m not caving on it.

I’m still 99.9% sure that she never had a physical affair and that’s why I haven’t left yet, that and our son. As screwed up as things are right now I still feel that if we just talked about all of this or convinced her to go back to counseling and actually want to participate this time that things can be worked out.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

AtMyEnd said:


> Honestly Jess I think it’s past that point. The biggest issue right now is that she still stands by her story of that nothing ever happened, she did nothing wrong and I’m blowing everything up based on false assumptions. I know what’s been going on, I’ve seen the evidence, I’ve told her what I know but yet she still won’t admit to any wrong doings or even apologize. I haven’t spoken to her in a few days, it’s a really strange feeling living with someone and not speaking to them but I’m not caving on it.
> 
> I’m still 99.9% sure that she never had a physical affair and that’s why I haven’t left yet, that and our son. As screwed up as things are right now I still feel that if we just talked about all of this or convinced her to go back to counseling and actually want to participate this time that things can be worked out.


Now maybe some of this is revenge for your affair, however --

You can blow everything up based only on the fact of her texting 100 times a day with another man. You can blow everything up based only on the fact that she was hiding stuff. So what is she doesn't think you should have a problem with it. You are with her on your own discretion, she is not entitled to your company. If her texting with a guy 100 times a day is not reasonable for you in a relationship than she can decided if she wants to make changes or not. Sounds like you have told her this over and over and she doesn't care or doesn't agree. That's life. Don't let her guilt you though because you are not cool with it. I would have been gone from all the nonsense. 

I will say it again. When you get someone who really loves and is committed to you this kind of nonsense will seem like a bad memory. However some of this is on you if you hadn't had a EA she may never have behaved this way.

I still think you both need to go to MC and she needs to forgive you or leave you, and now you need to forgive her. Relationships are so delicate, once you start to crack the foundation all it takes is a little water and boom the house falls in.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

AtMyEnd,

How has the frequency and intensity of your sex life varied, there is often a correlation between an emotional or physical affair and changes in attraction to the spouse.

Tamat


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> Honestly Jess I think it’s past that point. The biggest issue right now is that she still stands by her story of that nothing ever happened, she did nothing wrong and I’m blowing everything up based on false assumptions. I know what’s been going on, I’ve seen the evidence, I’ve told her what I know but yet she still won’t admit to any wrong doings or even apologize. I haven’t spoken to her in a few days, it’s a really strange feeling living with someone and not speaking to them but I’m not caving on it.
> 
> I’m still 99.9% sure that she never had a physical affair and that’s why I haven’t left yet, that and our son. As screwed up as things are right now I still feel that if we just talked about all of this or convinced her to go back to counseling and actually want to participate this time that things can be worked out.


I agree, the bigger issue is that she's willing to continue doing something that hurts you. She's essentially putting her relationship with the OM above your marriage. If he means nothing to her, she would have no problem giving him up simply because it bothers her husband. 

If I were you, I would not stop investigating because her behavior is classic script for a cheater, who doesn't want to give up her ego kibbles. For the sake of your family and because you have a child, you need to know what you're up against. I'd gather enough evidence to expose this as an EA to drive the OM off, and repair your marriage. Going to an MC now while she's getting her needs met from the OM is futile while she's engaged in an EA. If she agrees to go now, it will be to placate you while she continues getting her needs met with the OM.

I'd stop discussing it with her and gather intel. He's giving her something she's unwilling to give up. At this point, you really can't believe a word she says- cheaters are notorious for giving half-truths to placate their spouses so they can continue getting what they want (which she may feel entirely justified to do, given the history of EAs in the marriage).


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

TAMAT said:


> AtMyEnd,
> 
> How has the frequency and intensity of your sex life varied, there is often a correlation between an emotional or physical affair and changes in attraction to the spouse.
> 
> Tamat


Unfortunately, this isn't always a good litmus test. I have a close personal friend who has a very active sex life with her husband while she is currently engaged in an EA (and I've been clear I don't support it). She feels very justified in her behavior because her husband will not stop flirting with female clients while taking them out for corporate dinners while she's at home with the kids.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Thor said:


> In OP's case there was no intention of taking the friendship beyond where it was, and they had conversations stating that. I do think that the conversations about their marriages crossed lines of propriety, and that there is ample reasons for spouses to be hurt by this friendship.


Most decent people do not plan to take a friendship with the OS to the next level. But, by confiding in each other and exchanging flirty/suggestive texts, and exchanging affection with words like "I love you," feelings can very easily develop. In the OP's case, feelings did develop, which is no surprise, seeing as how most affairs start with a co-worker or OS friend. In his wife's case, her feelings are so strong for the OM that she's unwilling to stop privately communicating with him despite the fact that her husband is telling her that it bothers/hurts him.

Bottom line: the marriage comes first. Anytime you're interacting with the OS in a way you wouldn't in front of your spouse, you're crossing the line. As soon as you exchange feelings with the OS and hide communication with them, you've entered EA territory.

And yes, some people haphazardly throw around "I love you's" in a casual way, but most people do not have good marriages. In His Needs, Her Needs, the number was at 20% or 1 in 5 surveyed said they had a happy marriage. TAM certainly paints the same picture. Most marriages suffer affairs (over 60%). If you want to be on the winning side of these stats, you've got to realize how affairs start, and take precautions.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

sokillme said:


> Now maybe some of this is revenge for your affair, however --
> 
> You can blow everything up based only on the fact of her texting 100 times a day with another man. You can blow everything up based only on the fact that she was hiding stuff. So what is she doesn't think you should have a problem with it. You are with her on your own discretion, she is not entitled to your company. If her texting with a guy 100 times a day is not reasonable for you in a relationship than she can decided if she wants to make changes or not. Sounds like you have told her this over and over and she doesn't care or doesn't agree. That's life. Don't let her guilt you though because you are not cool with it. I would have been gone from all the nonsense.
> 
> ...


I agree that we need MC, I sought out a counselor and we started after my EA blew up. From the first session she never seemed 100% into it, even our counselor thought so. After the 4th session she told me she didn't want to go anymore because she didn't believe in it and thought it was just a waste of money. I know the writings been on the wall for a long time now and I've been trying not read it, but we used to have such a great relationship and we have such an amazing and talented kid, I can't help but think of the damage a divorce will do to him and how silly it seems to throw away a 15 year relationship because of a few bad years with making some kind of actual effort on both parts


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

I would focus on improving your marriage, not ending it. Your wife is not solely at fault here. Yes, what she's doing is wrong and classifies as an EA, but again- this is how your marriage has been operating. You both need to make changes. And she needs to be willing to do the work too. I think once you both put extraordinary precautions in place around the OS, and start turning towards each other only to have your intimate emotional needs met, you'll have a much stronger marriage. Right now, she's getting her needs met outside of the marriage, which you both have a habit of doing. That needs to stop.


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

You start investigating when your wife gives you reason to be suspicious. You stop investigating when your investigation reveals that your suspicions were nothing more than undeserved mistrust.

I would be very worried if my wife was texting some guy from work, from sunrise to sunset (OM#1). I imagine I would have gone to the extreme measures you did with OM#2.

I would be less worried if she got infrequent texts (even of a flirty nature) from some other guy (OM#2). I imagine I would not do more than talk with her about it.

In either figurative case, I imagine if I found nothing of my wife's wrongdoing, my investigation would lead me to getting self-help for my own mistrust.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> I would focus on improving your marriage, not ending it. Your wife is not solely at fault here. Yes, what she's doing is wrong and classifies as an EA, but again- this is how your marriage has been operating. You both need to make changes. And she needs to be willing to do the work too. I think once you both put extraordinary precautions in place around the OS, and start turning towards each other only to have your intimate emotional needs met, you'll have a much stronger marriage. Right now, she's getting her needs met outside of the marriage, which you both have a habit of doing. That needs to stop.



I know that she is not solely at fault, we’ve both made mistakes, said things, done things and have both handled all of it completely wrong. As much as I told her she has until the end of the month to sit down and talk or I’m leaving, I doubt I will leave exactly at the end of the month. I told her that to try and shock so sense into her. Since that last argument we’ve barely spoken at all, I’ve been doing my own thing, spending time with my son and getting things done around the house that I’ve been wanting to do for a while. Honestly right now I’m pulling a 180 harder than I have in the past, when she asks me something I give her short to the point answers and that’s it. As much as I do care about all of what’s been going on, I don’t care, if that makes any sense. 

Yesterday we were both doing a lot around the house gardening and getting the outside ready for our annual party this coming weekend. I worked on what I needed to get done and didn’t pay attention to her. She came to me a few times and told me about ideas she had that she wanted to do, ideas that I knew she could not do herself. When I diminished doing what I was doing I took care of what she told me about and made her ideas happen but without consulting her on them first. They were good ideas and they do look great now that they’re done, and she was happy to see them. But again, after I did them, I didn’t point out they were done and I just kept going with what I wanted to get done. 

She did seem to come around again yesterday, wanting to talk more and things like that. I entertained the conversations but didn’t go out of my way. This morning she asked how I was feeling since after the amount of physical labor I did yesterday, and the fact that I did just have surgery a month ago, my entire body hurt, lol. I told her I felt fine, no pain, got ready for work, said goodbye to my son and yelled up the stairs that I’d see her later as I walked out the door.

As much as I know that she most likely is still texting with OM #2, I know she is not seeing him and I don’t think ever did she him. She hasn’t been coming home late or going anywhere that hasn’t or couldn’t be verified. Sure there’s always a chance but from what I’ve seen that probability is highly unlikely. And from the texts I did see between them they did just talk about normal everyday life kind of things with the occasional flirt. No, I’m not ok with her texting other men and she knows that. At the same time she caught me texting another woman and I own that. Things need to be discussed between us badly and all the BS needs to stop, but at the same time I can’t be hypocritical.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

_anonymous_ said:


> You start investigating when your wife gives you reason to be suspicious. You stop investigating when your investigation reveals that your suspicions were nothing more than undeserved mistrust.
> 
> I would be very worried if my wife was texting some guy from work, from sunrise to sunset (OM#1). I imagine I would have gone to the extreme measures you did with OM#2.
> 
> ...




See that’s the problem, with OM #1 I knew who he was. I knew that he was someone who helped her out with business contacts, networking and advice on how to handle certain types of cases. As bizarre as it may sound for me to say this, everything she told me about him prior to me finding out about all the texts, I do appreciate what he did for her career. And with OM #1, all I saw was the amount of texting and not the actual texts so there wasn’t much more I could pursue with it.

With OM #2, I saw some of the texts. As most of what I saw was just typical talking between friends, there were flirty texts and the one very suggestive text from him that set everything off. After that her attitude and behavior also changed which was why I investigated more and as much as I didn’t find anything that pointed to a physical affair, I found a lot of other things that just didn’t make any sense.

I had stopped investigating and was just keeping an eye open for anything strange, and that was the problem, things kept popping up. Little lies about things that really didn’t mean or amount to anything but there were still lies. I have completely stopped now, after the last argument everything is out on the table. I’m doing the 180 harder than before and the ball is in her court, and she knows that.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

At first, I was abscessed with finding every little scrap of the truth that she wasn't telling me. I began to realize it was destroying me inside...emotionally and physically. It was making the stress for me worse to a point of being intolerable. I was loosing my mind because I still thought I could fix this. 

I stopped investigating when I got to the point where I no longer gave a damn about what she was doing. I realized I couldn't control her and if she valued our marriage, she would fix herself and adapt the policy of truth. From that point on it was a matter of time with me. How long was I willing to wait for it. Regrettably, I gave her the better side of a year before I filed for D. From that point on, my coarse was set, my decision made. 

Once I let go of the obsession and stopped all of the crazy private eye sh1t, the stress levels dropped significantly. I realized that I didn't need all the answers anymore because I was getting sick of it all. It was really out of my control. This was hers to fix and if I wasn't satisfied, I was done.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Decimated said:


> At first, I was abscessed with finding every little scrap of the truth that she wasn't telling me. I began to realize it was destroying me inside...emotionally and physically. It was making the stress for me worse to a point of being intolerable. I was loosing my mind because I still thought I could fix this.
> 
> I stopped investigating when I got to the point where I no longer gave a damn about what she was doing. I realized I couldn't control her and if she valued our marriage, she would fix herself and adapt the policy of truth. From that point on it was a matter of time with me. How long was I willing to wait for it. Regrettably, I gave her the better side of a year before I filed for D. From that point on, my coarse was set, my decision made.
> 
> Once I let go of the obsession and stopped all of the crazy private eye sh1t, the stress levels dropped significantly. I realized that I didn't need all the answers anymore because I was getting sick of it all. It was really out of my control. This was hers to fix and if I wasn't satisfied, I was done.


That's where I am now, I've stopped investigating and haven't been for weeks now, and yes the stress level dropped and I feel great. I had already known about all the lies and had for a while and wasn't going to say anything about them. Then last week I started noticing little things, I blew them off and didn't let them bother me but then as I walked past her I glanced over at her phone while she was texting. She was quick to shut the phone off but before she did I caught a glimpse of who she was texting and I was 99% sure it was the name that she had the OM's name listed under and I just lost it.

Since then we've barely spoken or interacted and I really don't care what she does anymore. She knows 100% where I stand on everything and it's up to her to make an effort to fix it. If not, I'm gone.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> That's where I am now, I've stopped investigating and haven't been for weeks now, and yes the stress level dropped and I feel great. I had already known about all the lies and had for a while and wasn't going to say anything about them. Then last week I started noticing little things, I blew them off and didn't let them bother me but then as I walked past her I glanced over at her phone while she was texting. She was quick to shut the phone off but before she did I caught a glimpse of who she was texting and I was 99% sure it was the name that she had the OM's name listed under and I just lost it.
> 
> Since then we've barely spoken or interacted and I really don't care what she does anymore. She knows 100% where I stand on everything and it's up to her to make an effort to fix it. If not, I'm gone.


Have you thought about making a list of what you'll need from her? If it were me, I'd want precautions in place (no contact with this guy, changing numbers, closing FB account, full transparency going forward, etc). An EA can restart with 1 text. As long as the OM is meeting her needs for affection, attention, and conversation, even via text only, she will not be fully engaged in the marriage.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Have you thought about making a list of what you'll need from her? If it were me, I'd want precautions in place (no contact with this guy, changing numbers, closing FB account, full transparency going forward, etc). An EA can restart with 1 text. As long as the OM is meeting her needs for affection, attention, and conversation, even via text only, she will not be fully engaged in the marriage.


She told me that she hadn't been speaking to him and then I found his number listed under a different name, something that sounded like a business and not a person. I confronted her about this and she had no explanation for it. At this point the only way anything is going happen is for the two of us to sit down and talk about all of it, not just her texting but all of it. I have questions that I want answered and have for a long time. Questions that she's always blown off or gave some sad excuse for not answering. She needs to start acting like an adult and face the problems instead of avoiding them and making excuses. If she can't or doesn't want to do that then there's no point anymore and I'm done.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> She told me that she hadn't been speaking to him and then I found his number listed under a different name, something that sounded like a business and not a person. I confronted her about this and she had no explanation for it. At this point the only way anything is going happen is for the two of us to sit down and talk about all of it, not just her texting but all of it. I have questions that I want answered and have for a long time. Questions that she's always blown off or gave some sad excuse for not answering. She needs to start acting like an adult and face the problems instead of avoiding them and making excuses. If she can't or doesn't want to do that then there's no point anymore and I'm done.


I'd recommend getting some help with this. I understand you're upset (I would be too) but your emotions right now may cause more harm than good if you try to sit down and talk with her. I know you're posting your feelings here and may never say it to her directly, but stating that "she needs to act like an adult" is pretty disrespectful. Of course, what she is doing is highly disrespectful of you and your marriage, so again- I get it, but it likely is not the best approach if you want to save the marriage. She will only feel further justified in turning away from her "mean husband" and running to a kind, warm, caring man like the OM.

Make no mistake- you're in competition for your marriage right now. It sucks and I'd be LIVID if my husband did this to me, but it is the truth. The OM is going to look very attractive as long as you continue to 1. Lovebust her (term from Lovebusters, highly recommend you read it), and 2. Wait patiently for her to end her affair, allowing yourself to be Option B. 

If I were you, I'd read Lovebusters and His Needs, Her Needs today. Right now, she knows you know and yet you are ignoring her, instead of fighting for her.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

AtMyEnd,

Do I understand correctly that you do not know who OM2 is and have never met him?

I think you need to save off the communication between your WW and OM2 and present it as a package to OM2 wife.

Tamat


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

TAMAT said:


> AtMyEnd,
> 
> Do I understand correctly that you do not know who OM2 is and have never met him?
> 
> ...


Oh no, I know exactly who OM #2 is. He plays in our volleyball league, which coincidentally starts up this week so that should be interesting, lol. And besides that I know more about him than anyone thinks I know. I have his address, phone numbers, email, where he works, hangs out, vehicle information, when he got married, where he got married, and all the same information about his wife. I do side work for a security and investigation firm that's owned and run by active law enforcement, with as little as a phone number I can find out pretty much anything. I have gone back and forth about sending the evidence I have of what's been going on with him and my wife to his wife. The only reason I haven't is because first, I don't have any evidence of a physical affair, only one text from him and my wife's bizarre behavior after being confronted. Second, things have been getting better between my wife and I, and if she ever found out that I told his wife she would completely withdraw and that would be that. And the third reason is that if I sent the info to his wife and she kicked him out, I'm just opening the door for the two of them to continue it with more of a chance for it to become physical. I'm saving everything I have, if it does come down to my wife and I divorcing then yes his wife is going to recieve a very interesting and detailed email from me, lol


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you checked her car and her lingerie drawers for a burner phone?

If you have, and found nothing, I would do one last thing before going on hiatus for a few months. Get a voice-activated recorder and some Velcro, and Velcro it under her car seat on a Monday morning. Take it out at the end of the week and see what's on there. If nothing, go on hiatus.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

This ^^^

If you need more proof than a VAR is a good idea.

If you get it, I would contact OM's wife and tell her what you know or suspect. I contacted my XWW's posOM's wife with my suspicions and to my surprise, she wanted to talk. It turns out that she knew more that I did. She had suspected for a year and had proof that was more concrete than mine. We swapped info and that was the beginning of the end of their affair. We blew up their little cheating world. I still proceeded with the divorce. 

As long as they're in contact, the affair will be on-going. If his wife confronts him and starts keeping tabs on him from her end, he'll most likely throw your wife under the bus. Affairs thrive in secrecy and tend to die when the spot light is on them. 

With all the infidelity stories I've read, most guys, not all, are in it for the sex and don't really have any intention of leaving their wives. When the sh1t hits the fan, tend to beg forgiveness from their wives. Married women, on the other hand, seem to become more emotionally attached and it ruins their feelings for their husbands and thus, their marriage.

Read up on the 180. This is what you should be doing right now. Emotionally withdraw from her and move on with your life. Be cordial but initiate no conversations especially about your marriage or suspicions.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> Second, things have been getting better between my wife and I, and if she ever found out that I told his wife she would completely withdraw and that would be that. And the third reason is that if I sent the info to his wife and she kicked him out, I'm just opening the door for the two of them to continue it with more of a chance for it to become physical. l


I thought things were getting better too but it was just a ruse. My XWW was trying to throw me off the scent by giving me scraps of affection so she could carry on her affair. It was her way of controlling me and the situation as well as buying time. Don't be fooled. She knows you are on to her. She will try to distract you. 

You need to see real change not scraps.

As far as blowing the whistle on them...I felt like this as well. But here's the thing. If all it takes is for OM to be kicked out of his house for them get together, it will happen anyway, or has already happened. Why would you want to live like this knowing that you may be just one argument, lunch hour, or business trip away from her running to OM? Honestly, if you live nearby OM, there is a good chance it has already happened. I didn't believe my XWW's affair was physical either. She swore on the lives of our children, it was only emotional. The proof I got form OM's wife showed they had been having sex for 1 1/2 years.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

turnera said:


> Have you checked her car and her lingerie drawers for a burner phone?
> 
> If you have, and found nothing, I would do one last thing before going on hiatus for a few months. Get a voice-activated recorder and some Velcro, and Velcro it under her car seat on a Monday morning. Take it out at the end of the week and see what's on there. If nothing, go on hiatus.


I've done all that and then some and nothing. VAR's in the car and the house, gps tracking on the car, accessing her phone without her knowing and going through everything on it, it's all been done and nothing to show that there's been a physical affair or that they've even seen each other. As it is now everything is out in the open, she knows everything that I know and it's up to her to start making an effort. She knows this and she also knows that she doesn't have unlimited time to do so


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> She told me that she hadn't been speaking to him and then I found his number listed under a different name, something that sounded like a business and not a person. I confronted her about this and she had no explanation for it.


This is absolutely unacceptable. You need to set the boundaries for your marriage. You should never tolerate this type of disrespect from your wife or anyone else. If she does cross your boundaries or disrespect you, there must be swift consequences for her choices, up to and including divorce. 

*This is very important. A women can't love a man she doesn't respect.*


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Decimated said:


> Read up on the 180. This is what you should be doing right now. Emotionally withdraw from her and move on with your life. Be cordial but initiate no conversations especially about your marriage or suspicions.


That's what I've been doing and even harder for the past week. We've barely said 10 words to each other over the course of the last week and yesterday I did notice her making more of an effort to talk to me. I still didn't say much more than to answer what she was asking and went back to doing whatever it was I was doing. I have reached the point where I do still want to work things out if we can but I'm not going out of my way to do so anymore. She knows where I stand and if she wants me, she can come get me.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> I have reached the point where I do still want to work things out if we can but I'm not going out of my way to do so anymore. She knows where I stand and if she wants me, she can come get me.


Bravo! :smthumbup: Your mind is where it should be. It's on her to begin any process of fixing this.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

You don't see what's coming, do you? Ask yourself, if she doesn't have the answer you want to hear now, what's going to change in two weeks?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

AtMyEnd said:


> I've done all that and then some and nothing. VAR's in the car and the house, gps tracking on the car, accessing her phone without her knowing and going through everything on it, it's all been done and nothing to show that there's been a physical affair or that they've even seen each other. As it is now everything is out in the open, she knows everything that I know and it's up to her to start making an effort. She knows this and she also knows that she doesn't have unlimited time to do so


Then it's time to back off.

That's assuming that you and she have sat down and been 100% open about it and about what you expect moving forward. She knows, right, that you consider her a cheater now, and you will forever be on guard? You've actually said that?


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

turnera said:


> Then it's time to back off.
> 
> That's assuming that you and she have sat down and been 100% open about it and about what you expect moving forward. She knows, right, that you consider her a cheater now, and you will forever be on guard? You've actually said that?


I had backed off until last week when I saw something and asked her about it. An argument happened and I told her everything I knew that she didn't know I knew. She knows I think she still texts with him and why I think that. She knows I know she has his name listed in her phone under another name. And she knows that I know she's lied to me numerous times about things that really are meaningless in the scheme of things but they were still lies and made up stories. I told her I thought she was a liar and that I had zero trust in her and that's why I looked into things the way I did.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok, then I'm a little confused. You told her these things, but then...what? You told her and then shut down the conversation and swept it all under the rug?


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

You need to establish a zero tolerance policy. If you already have one and told her, she is clearly calling your bluff.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

turnera said:


> Ok, then I'm a little confused. You told her these things, but then...what? You told her and then shut down the conversation and swept it all under the rug?


I had backed off, I stopped investigating things and was just keeping an eye open. Last Sunday into Monday I saw the attitude start to change again but I didn't say anything. Monday night the attitude was even worse. Towards the end of the night I had walked past her, as I did I glanced at her phone while she was texting. She was quick to turn off the phone but I did catch a glimpse of the name of the person she was texting and I'm 99% sure it was the name she OM #2's number saved under. I got pissed and called her out on it, I told her I knew she was still texting him, I told her that I knew she had his name in her phone under a false name, and I told her about all the lies that she's told me that she didn't know I knew about. And even that night as I asked her about the lies she had told me, she still lied about them. When I told her I knew they were lies and how I knew the truths to each of those lies, she made excuses as to why she lied. That night I told her that we finally need to sit down and talk about everything and decide how we're going to move forward. She told me she needs time to think, and I told her that's fine and that she has until the end of the month or I'm leaving. So since then I've pulled a hard 180, we've barely said 10 words to each other since that night.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> I had backed off, I stopped investigating things and was just keeping an eye open. Last Sunday into Monday I saw the attitude start to change again but I didn't say anything. Monday night the attitude was even worse. Towards the end of the night I had walked past her, as I did I glanced at her phone while she was texting. She was quick to turn off the phone but I did catch a glimpse of the name of the person she was texting and I'm 99% sure it was the name she OM #2's number saved under. I got pissed and called her out on it, I told her I knew she was still texting him, I told her that I knew she had his name in her phone under a false name, and I told her about all the lies that she's told me that she didn't know I knew about. And even that night as I asked her about the lies she had told me, she still lied about them. When I told her I knew they were lies and how I knew the truths to each of those lies, she made excuses as to why she lied. That night I told her that we finally need to sit down and talk about everything and decide how we're going to move forward. * She told me she needs time to think*, and I told her that's fine and that she has until the end of the month or I'm leaving. So since then I've pulled a hard 180, we've barely said 10 words to each other since that night.


She wants time to decide between you and OM? No! No time to think. Go see a lawyer and start the process. 
Don't play the I'll be patient "pick me game" with her. She is fence sitting. Knock her off the fence with a fresh stack of divorce papers. You are being disrespected sir.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Decimated said:


> She wants time to decide between you and OM? No! No time to think. Go see a lawyer and start the process.
> Don't play the I'll be patient "pick me game" with her. She is fence sitting. Knock her off the fence with a fresh stack of divorce papers. You are being disrespected sir.


Oh, I'm done playing games. Giving her to the end of the month to think is also just giving myself time to get a few last things in order. On top of that, with Memorial Day weekend coming, we're having a big party at the house which is mostly my friends and then another the next day at one of her friends. I want her to see and hear from her friends again how they all have seen a big change in me as far as all the weight I'm lost and how I've been in a great mood lately and really do just seem like a different person. Every time we're with her friends they all make these comments and I know it pisses her off a little.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't remember if you said you had kids. If you do, don't move out. But if you don't, by all means, see a lawyer and get the legal ball moving for a legal separation, so that she can't try to gouge you for leaving, and then go ahead and move. Women crave strength. These other jerks 'seem' strong because they're chasing a married woman. You'll appear strong by leaving a cheating woman. Only then can you have the upper hand, no matter what ends up happening. 

How old is she, again?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Jessica38 said:


> I'd recommend getting some help with this. I understand you're upset (I would be too) but your emotions right now may cause more harm than good if you try to sit down and talk with her. I know you're posting your feelings here and may never say it to her directly, but stating that "she needs to act like an adult" is pretty disrespectful. Of course, what she is doing is highly disrespectful of you and your marriage, so again- I get it, but it likely is not the best approach if you want to save the marriage. She will only feel further justified in turning away from her "mean husband" and running to a kind, warm, caring man like the OM.
> 
> Make no mistake- you're in competition for your marriage right now. It sucks and I'd be LIVID if my husband did this to me, but it is the truth. The OM is going to look very attractive as long as you continue to 1. Lovebust her (term from Lovebusters, highly recommend you read it), and 2. Wait patiently for her to end her affair, allowing yourself to be Option B.
> 
> If I were you, I'd read Lovebusters and His Needs, Her Needs today. Right now, she knows you know and yet you are ignoring her, instead of fighting for her.


If you have to compete for your marriage there is a much better marriage out there for you.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

AtMyEnd said:


> I had backed off until last week when I saw something and asked her about it. An argument happened and I told her everything I knew that she didn't know I knew. She knows I think she still texts with him and why I think that. She knows I know she has his name listed in her phone under another name. And she knows that I know she's lied to me numerous times about things that really are meaningless in the scheme of things but they were still lies and made up stories. I told her I thought she was a liar and that I had zero trust in her and that's why I looked into things the way I did.


What else exactly do you need to make a decision? From my perspective she was caught and has no intention to change. What makes you think this is going to get any better she is unremorseful. Don't be surprised when you get the divorce papers in the mail, your indecision is making you very vulnerable at the very least you look like all talk because that is what you have been for months. Hell I would use the party to announce your separation, but I am kind of an ******* so there is that. I would give her the papers the day before the party at the very least, then act like the party is a celebration of your liberation.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

*


turnera said:



Women crave strength. These other jerks 'seem' strong because they're chasing a married woman. You'll appear strong by leaving a cheating woman.

Click to expand...

* :smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup: *This is the quote of the day...Live it!*.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

turnera said:


> I don't remember if you said you had kids. If you do, don't move out. But if you don't, by all means, see a lawyer and get the legal ball moving for a legal separation, so that she can't try to gouge you for leaving, and then go ahead and move. Women crave strength. These other jerks 'seem' strong because they're chasing a married woman. You'll appear strong by leaving a cheating woman. Only then can you have the upper hand, no matter what ends up happening.
> 
> How old is she, again?


We do have a young son, which is the main reason I haven't left yet. She's 6 years younger then I am, and she's an attorney, so I've had to be very careful with how I've gone about things through all this. I have drawn up a separation agreement that I will ask her to sign when the time comes.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, don't move out then. Start your legal steps. If she's a lawyer, then by all means don't sign ANYTHING without seeing your own lawyer first.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

turnera said:


> Well, don't move out then. Start your legal steps. If she's a lawyer, then by all means don't sign ANYTHING without seeing your own lawyer first.


I wasn't planning on moving out until everything was finalized. I know that if I did she would just use it against me. Her being a lawyer is also why most of what we've talked about over the last 2 years has been either by email or text. Even if we had a face to face conversation about things, the next day I would send a text or email talking about the conversation and what we talked about just so I have it in writing. I have done everything possible to try and keep things together and try to get her to talk and work on our problems and all of that is in writing so there's no way she can try and say I've done nothing and have been uncooperative. I know her better than anyone, I know the games she likes to play and how she always likes to try and twist things around. I've seen the writing on the wall for a while now and I've just been working on playing the game better.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

QFT. This is over, brother. All you are doing is delaying the inevitable.



anchorwatch said:


> You don't see what's coming, do you? Ask yourself, if she doesn't have the answer you want to hear now, what's going to change in two weeks?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Proceed under the assumption she is choosing divorce and she is taking steps to lock in the largest legal advantage she can.

When it comes to divorce, your stbxw is now the enemy as far as the legal proceedings are concerned. Expect her to go for your jugular. Since you've given her advance warning of your intentions and the date you will proceed, she has every opportunity to make a sneak attack. Maybe there is a great advantage if she files first (depends on where you live and your circumstances). Maybe she will make a false claim of DV or child abuse. If you let her make the first move you will be playing defense to some kind of surprise. Sun Tzu would not approve of your strategy.

The "Pick Me" dance never works out well. Just saying. Busting the affair via exposure is the best option, followed by filing for divorce. This puts the cheater out in the cold, forced to fight for their way back in. Letting the cheater decide means they get to figure out how to jigger the situation to their advantage. Their main goal is to keep the affair, so they figure out how to do that and eat cake by keeping you on the hook, too. Your upcoming parties seem more like an excuse to not take action rather than something important enough to trump your marriage.

This chronic lying of hers indicates a significant personality disorder or something similar. Meaning, she is unpredictable and has motivations which you may not be aware of. Her prime motivation may be, for example, to never ever look like the bad guy to the outside world. This motivation would lead her to do seemingly uncharacteristic things like accuse you of abusing your child or hitting her. She may set you up for a DV charge by harming herself and calling 911. You would be well served to carry a VAR on you at all times you are near her. She may be the victim of some violence or trauma (you might not even know about) which makes her emotionally fear you. She may lash out somehow. Be Prepared.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Thor said:


> Proceed under the assumption she is choosing divorce and she is taking steps to lock in the largest legal advantage she can.


See that's one of the funny things about all of this, with everything that's been going on I have figured that she was choosing divorce and that's why she would never talk about anything or try to work on things. The funny part of it all is that before this last blowout, she always talked about planning vacations for us over the summer and other things we were going to do or places to go. She recently started at a new firm and even wanted me to add her to my insurance plan because it costs less than hers does. She kept talking about all these plans for the near future and longer but yet there were times she would tell me how she was unsure about our future.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> See that's one of the funny things about all of this, with everything that's been going on I have figured that she was choosing divorce and that's why she would never talk about anything or try to work on things. The funny part of it all is that before this last blowout, she always talked about planning vacations for us over the summer and other things we were going to do or places to go. She recently started at a new firm and even wanted me to add her to my insurance plan because it costs less than hers does. She kept talking about all these plans for the near future and longer but yet there were times she would tell me how she was unsure about our future.


I think this is typical wayward thinking, my XWW did the same thing. I remember us talking about all kinds of future plans, long and short term, weekend getaways, vacations, cottage on a lake, retirement...etc. This was also during the height of her affair. I know it doesn't make sense. They're thinking is an illogically based mess. I wouldn't waste any time trying to make sense out of it. You'll just drive yourself crazy.

Make your decision based on her current actions, not her words, past or present.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Decimated said:


> I think this is typical wayward thinking, my XWW did the same thing. I remember us talking about all kinds of future plans, long and short term, weekend getaways, vacations, cottage on a lake, retirement...etc. This was also during the height of her affair. I know it doesn't make sense. They're thinking is an illogically based mess. I wouldn't waste any time trying to make sense out of it. You'll just drive yourself crazy.
> 
> Make your decision based on her current actions, not her words, past or present.


I've stopped trying to make sense of it, lol. And I am going to make my decision based on her current actions. The lies that i told her about that I knew were things that happened back in March and April. What I've told her is that I want to sit down and talk about all of it and see if both of us are willing to make a real effort. I've also told her that if she doesn't want to sit down and talk then I'm done and it's over. I'm not living like this anymore and there needs to be some kind of resolve. Come the end of the month if there's still been nothing from her I'm starting to look at apartments, once I find something and before I put a deposit down on it I'm handing her the separation agreement and we'll go from there.


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## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

Just don't waver. And when she 'backs off' and tries to save the marriage I can promise you that she will not let you recover deleted texts


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

My life is different, I readily admit that.

But my wife hands me her phone unlocked any time I tell her to. And I have no qualms telling her to at any random moment. I have the password for her phone, the computers I let her use, her email addresses, everything. I have a list of accounts with passwords.

Sometimes I think I would do this with any wife, but I really don't know. As it happens, I also have the same completely open policy for her. She even has my work passwords.

So I probably would expect any wife of mine to share all passwords with me, not just this one I have.

Although mine happens to be nuttier than a fruitcake, so there is that.

Edit: My wife says to add: Of course, after 43 years of being with this one I probably will never have another one.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

eric1 said:


> Just don't waver. And when she 'backs off' and tries to save the marriage I can promise you that she will not let you recover deleted texts


I don't need to see recovered texts, I've seen everything I need to see. I don't even need an apology at this point, if she wants to save the marriage I need to see the actions that show that. I don't need to divorce and run out and find another relationship right now. I'm living my life the way I want to live it, I'm spending time with my son being a dad, I'm living in the house that I broke my butt for, and I'm doing the things I want to do when I want to do them. I come here to vent just like everyone else, if for nothing else to hear everyone else's opinions. Some are great advice, not just for my marriage but for the future. Some of them are just funny to read and help me realize that I don't want to end up like "that guy", lol. At the end of the day I would like to work things out in my marriage, I've spent 15 years with this woman and have built a great life and family, but do I need to work things out with her? NO


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> Come the end of the month if there's still been nothing from her I'm starting to look at apartments, once I find something and before I put a deposit down on it I'm handing her the separation agreement and we'll go from there.


If she's unwilling to put any effort into R...why should you move? You didn't fail your marriage, she did. It's symbolic. She's the one who doesn't want to be married anymore. You said you busted your butt for that house. Tell her to pack her sh1t and find a place. I would dig in like a tick on a hound for now and work out who gets the house in the settlement details. If it's an even split, and neither one of you can afford to buy the other out, than it'll be sold and the proceeds split.

After I filed for D, I kicked my XWW out of the bedroom and made her sleep on the sofa in the basement until the settlement was complete. The process took over a year because she kept delaying things. Honestly, it was brutal but there's no way I was moving into some crappy apartment after the years of work I put into restoring my home and making all the mortgage payments. After it was over, I bought her out of the house and sent her packing. Now she lives in a crappy apartment.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

AtMyEnd said:


> At the end of the day I would like to work things out in my marriage, I've spent 15 years with this woman and have built a great life and family, but do I need to work things out with her? NO



Yet, she has to indicate that she wants to work things out too. By your writings, she doesn't. I don't know why (her, you, or both), but a week isn't going to change anything. 

FWIW, I don't believe she is going to commit to anything.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

Its time to stop when you feel its time to stop. 

You can only beat your head against the wall so many times.

One lie turns into 20 then 40 and so on. Some one who already has trust issues one lie, can reek havoc

You have to decide if she is worth it. You have to decide if your relationship is worth fighting for. If no? Then the sooner you throw in the towel the better. If this isn't the first time, throw in the towel.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

anchorwatch said:


> Yet, she has to indicate that she wants to work things out too. By your writings, she doesn't. I don't know why (her, you, or both), but a week isn't going to change anything.
> 
> FWIW, I don't believe she is going to commit to anything.


Well out of nowhere she started texting me earlier and going on and on about everything. I just kept telling her how all I want is to finally sit down and talk about our problems and come to some kind of resolution. She would bring up my snooping and spying and I told her that if we had just spoken about things like adults I wouldn't have had a reason to spy to try and figure things out on my own. Long story short we went back and forth and she set the date to sit down and talk. Now whether she follows through with it or not that's yet to be seen, but she FINALLY committed to something, lol.

I know things are a complete mess and all of this has been going on long enough, but in all honesty if there wasn't still something there between us we would've divorced a long time ago. And I don't really know what to expect when we talk but at least she finally made a decision about something. Whether it's to talk about getting divorced or wanting to work on things, at least it's something.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Decimated said:


> If she's unwilling to put any effort into R...why should you move? You didn't fail your marriage, she did. It's symbolic. She's the one who doesn't want to be married anymore. You said you busted your butt for that house. Tell her to pack her sh1t and find a place. I would dig in like a tick on a hound for now and work out who gets the house in the settlement details. If it's an even split, and neither one of you can afford to buy the other out, than it'll be sold and the proceeds split.
> 
> After I filed for D, I kicked my XWW out of the bedroom and made her sleep on the sofa in the basement until the settlement was complete. The process took over a year because she kept delaying things. Honestly, it was brutal but there's no way I was moving into some crappy apartment after the years of work I put into restoring my home and making all the mortgage payments. After it was over, I bought her out of the house and sent her packing. Now she lives in a crappy apartment.


As far as all that goes, I did bust my butt to be able to afford our house and fix it up to how we wanted it. When we first bought it she had just gotten out of law school and was making little money, that has all changed and she now makes more than I do. The other thing is that in my state, unless she is found to be an unfit parent the mother is almost always awarded as the custodial parent even if custody is split 50/50. And the custodial parent is also almost always awarded the house although she would have to buy me out of the equity in the home. And even with a 50/50 custody split, the custodial parent is still entitled to child support. So as much as I do make more than enough money to survive, I would end up losing my house and moving into an apartment, buying furniture and everything else and have to pay child support. And it's not that I'm staying in the marriage because of financial reasons, I do still want to try and work things out because regardless of everything that's gone on, fault does lie on both parties. We've both made mistakes and caused problems within the marriage, and I do love her.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Frankly, until she's willing to admit to it being inappropriate to message other men and hide it, there is no discussion.

Her conversation was an attempt for you to be okay with the current situation. Any future attempts of this nature should be met with a simple statement:

"I will not remain in a marriage that involves sharing my wife emotionally with other men."

This is not a negotiation. This is a boundary. She can choose whether to honor it, or not, just as you can choose to remain in the marriage, or not.

Any other answer beyond a simple yes or no is an attempt to get you to come off your boundary. Don't fall for it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And she needs to see QUITE CLEARLY that your ONE boundary - no other men in any shape or form - is steadfast and will not be negotiated or adjusted. She can take it or leave it. The rest of the stuff is just money. You can have good time with your kids, not as good as married but still quality. So don't let her see ANY weakness in this one boundary.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Frankly, until she's willing to admit to it being inappropriate to message other men and hide it, there is no discussion.
> 
> Her conversation was an attempt for you to be okay with the current situation. Any future attempts of this nature should be met with a simple statement:
> 
> ...


Oh I know, she knows that I won't stand for that anymore and she's been told that I'm done with all the lies, games and everything else. Right now I finally got her to set a time to talk so that's a start and I have to see where things go from there


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

turnera said:


> And she needs to see QUITE CLEARLY that your ONE boundary - no other men in any shape or form - is steadfast and will not be negotiated or adjusted. She can take it or leave it. The rest of the stuff is just money. You can have good time with your kids, not as good as married but still quality. So don't let her see ANY weakness in this one boundary.


The one thing I hate about these forums is how things don't always come through 100% as intended and how I can't post the text thread with her from earlier. She knows I'm at the end of my rope and that I'm not dealing with the BS anymore. After I said my peace about what she was saying today I just kept saying the same thing, basically get off your but and do something, set a goal and stick to it and stop hiding from your problems. We'll see what happens when we talk, I'm not expecting much but it's a start.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

AtMyEnd said:


> Oh I know, she knows that I won't stand for that anymore and she's been told that I'm done with all the lies, games and everything else. Right now I finally got her to set a time to talk so that's a start and I have to see where things go from there


Why do I get the feeling that the time set to talk is probably sometime after the deadline?:scratchhead:


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

I don't think you will ever get the wholehearted response you want and need.
She has lost interest and respect big time. Its hard to get that back.

She is just trying to make her best deal.
She may be able to fake it till she makes it but I would not expect more.

She is in a fog.

She is letting another man meet her needs now (at least emotionally).

Her lack of honesty and alacrity is glaring form the outside.

It never hurts to beat a dead horse, it's dragging it out of the barn that is a pain in the tush.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Nucking Futs said:


> Why do I get the feeling that the time set to talk is probably sometime after the deadline?:scratchhead:


I see it as probably being after the deadline as well. The end of the month falls on a Wednesday and between our schedules during the week with work and our son's sports and everything else, if we don't sit down and talk until next weekend it's fine, but we will talk by then. Right now I'm just happy, and surprised, that she's finally made some type of commitment to do something about everything that's been going on. I'm not holding my breath over any of it but it's a start.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Look, brother. I'm not trying to dash your hopes. But make no mistake...the only thing she's committed to do at this point is more talking.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Look, brother. I'm not trying to dash your hopes. But make no mistake...the only thing she's committed to do at this point is more talking.


But that's the thing, up until now other than fights and arguments after confronting her on things, she has never wanted to talk. I've told her time and time again that the only way any of the feeling either of us have regarding what's gone on, trust, spying on each other or any other assumptions about one another, will never go away until we talk about things and help each other understand what we're thinking, feeling and why. And anytime I've said this to her she's always given me the same BS answers of "I don't feel comfortable enough to talk", "I'm not ready to talk" or something else along those lines. For over a year now she has blown off our problems and taken the attitude of let's just see what happens, but she has never committed to anything until now. Now like I said, I'm not holding my breath here over this but at least it's a start. All of our problems started because of a complete breakdown in communication. And I know it's a little ridiculous to think this but I do think that if we can rebuild that communication than we can make some progress here. Enough progress to stay together, I don't know, but we're going to be in each others lives for at least the next 12 years because of our son. If we don't talk and come to some kind of resolution to all this, the same feelings and questions are going to remain forever.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Then what you absolutely must do is not leave this conversation without a resolution. That resolution must be within the confines of your boundary: ceasing all contact with other men, full transparency, and working on the marriage, or it's time to call it a day.

She is essentially stalling. My fear for you is that six months from now you will still be allowing her to do so.

At that meeting, your attitude should be one of either improving the marriage starting right now, or ending it starting right now; no middle ground.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Then what you absolutely must do is not leave this conversation without a resolution. That resolution must be within the confines of your boundary: ceasing all contact with other men, full transparency, and working on the marriage, or it's time to call it a day.
> 
> She is essentially stalling. My fear for you is that six months from now you will still be allowing her to do so.
> 
> At that meeting, your attitude should be one of either improving the marriage starting right now, or ending it starting right now; no middle ground.


That's what I told her yesterday. I told her we need to sit down and talk about everything like adults and that she needs to stop hiding from our problems. I told her the only way any of our concerns, assumptions, worries or whatever are going to be eased is to put it all out there and let the other know why we feel the ways we do. I told her that after we talk then we can make a real decision on whether we end it or we take some time for both of us to put in an honest effort to fix our problems. If we are going to work on things than we have to set a goal, let's say we take 6 months, really focus on working on things and than after 6 months we talk about everything again and see where we are. I told her that I do still love her and that I know she still loves me, otherwise we wouldn't still be together after all this time and that anything is fixable if both sides want it enough. Yes I was blowing a little smoke at her to try and ease things and get her to agree to talk, but apparently it worked, lol, so we'll see. Like I said I'm not holding my breath over any of this but it's a start.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

I agree with farside. She's stalling while you've been dancing. 

Why? Because she doesn't have the answer you want to hear. She hasn't wanted to face the results if she tells you. Perhaps she is hoping things would change for her, but if she had a positive outlook she would have told you by now. IMHO 

Let's see what plays out. Don't allow yourself go further.

I hope for the best outcome for you and your family.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

AtMyEnd said:


> But that's the thing, up until now other than fights and arguments after confronting her on things, she has never wanted to talk.


So let's peel this back a bit. 

What would cause a person - ANY person - to email another person and say 'let's talk?'

Would it be because they feel philanthropic and want to talk the other person into starting a charity? Possibly. But even then, the real REASON the first person contacted the second person is that it would make the first person feel GOOD to start a charity.

In other words, if she wants to talk, it's because SHE wants something to make HER happy. 

Sure, you can meet up. But you have a 99% chance that she's doing it to make HER life better, not yours.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

On another note, after the whole text battle with her yesterday and her finally agreeing to talk about things, her attitude has started to change for the better again. Last night was the start of our volleyball league, and yes I know most of you who know the whole story probably think I’m crazy for allowing her to play volleyball again after the fact that that’s how she met OM #2 and that he plays in the same league. The way I looked at it was at this point it is what it is, if she’s going to cheat she’s going to cheat and there’s no way I stop it. I wanted to see how things would be when she saw if with me around and she how she acted, and how he acted. I figured right there would be a tell tale of how things really are, and again as much as I would like to work on things with her I really don’t care anymore how things ultimately work out.

So she texted me as I was leaving the house and told me she was at the beach already and I start thinking “Great, she’s there already and probably hanging around with him before I get there” but again, whatever I don’t care. So I get there and I’m scanning the courts as I’m walking looking for both her and him. I see her and walk over, she introduces me to all the new people on our team this year that she brought from work. We’re all joking around and hitting the ball around waiting for the team we’re playing to show up and interaction between her and I were actually surprisingly good considering the conversation that afternoon. Then I look up and see two of the people from OM #2’s team who I knew and was friendly with walking towards our court. I walk over, say hi and we’re talking about random things and whatever, then I find out that we’re playing them. I start laughing to myself thinking “Oh this should be interesting. After everything that’s happened our first game of the season and we’re playing him” lol. Well as we’re warming up and talking I see more people showing up for their team but no one else from last year and not OM #2.

So we played our games and had a great time. Her and I congratulated each other on good shots and made funny sarcastic comments about the bad one’s. We really did have a great night and we got along great, which even despite our problems we always have. So after we were done playing we were having a couple beers and talking with the two people we knew from the other team. Eventually the topic of “What happened to everyone from last year” came up. The one guy started telling us about this one and that one and what happened that they weren’t playing but OM #2’s name was never mentioned. That kind of leads me to believe that they know what happened and what’s been going on. I mean the guy was on the team for 4 years and a good friend of everyone on his team for longer, and now without mention or explanation he’s not playing anymore and they have all new people. We’ll see what happens as the weeks go on and if he ever shows up. 

And like a friend of mine asked me yesterday, “Aren’t you nervous about playing and seeing him? What are you going to do?” I told her yes I was a little nervous about how things would be but really I didn’t care. Seeing them in the same proximity and how the two of them were acting would be a tell of how things are and that I really don’t care one way or another anymore. I also told her that if anything happened or was said by him that I have no problem knocking him the F out if I had to and that it would probably feel really good if I had a reason and a chance, lol.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

turnera said:


> So let's peel this back a bit.
> 
> What would cause a person - ANY person - to email another person and say 'let's talk?'
> 
> ...


Whatever her reason for finally wanting to talk I don't really care. If it's for her own sake or the sake of the marriage, I don't care. She hasn't wanted to or actually spoken about any of it since the beginning. Good or bad I want to hear what she has to say about things, how she feels, how she answers certain things and most of all her body language and tone of voice as we talk. Yes we've talked about some parts of things but mostly over text, and like these forums you can't truly get a good read for what a person is really saying or how they're saying like that. So we'll see what happens when we talk and take it from there. What's the worst case, she wants to talk because she's going to hand me divorce papers? LOL, whatever, at least that would be a resolution to things


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

"Last night was the start of our volleyball league, and yes I know most of you who know the whole story probably think I’m crazy for allowing her to play volleyball again after the fact that that’s how she met OM #2 and that he plays in the same league. The way I looked at it was at this point it is what it is, if she’s going to cheat she’s going to cheat and there’s no way I stop it."

That is it in a nut shell. You now know what she is capable of. There is no way for you to stop it. That is why I could never reconcile. The rest of your relationship will be you wondering if she is cheating and her knowing that if she does, you will tolerate it.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

SadSamIAm said:


> "Last night was the start of our volleyball league, and yes I know most of you who know the whole story probably think I’m crazy for allowing her to play volleyball again after the fact that that’s how she met OM #2 and that he plays in the same league. The way I looked at it was at this point it is what it is, if she’s going to cheat she’s going to cheat and there’s no way I stop it."
> 
> That is it in a nut shell. You now know what she is capable of. There is no way for you to stop it. That is why I could never reconcile. The rest of your relationship will be you wondering if she is cheating and her knowing that if she does, you will tolerate it.


Right, if she wants to do it there is no real way for me to stop it. And yes if we do decide to work to reconcile I will constantly be on guard looking for any signs of what I saw in the past, but that won't last forever. When we do talk it's going to be laid out pretty simply for her, if I ever see signs of something going on like I did in the past and she doesn't want to explain them to prove my assumptions wrong then it's over. No more questions, no more talking, it's over, I leave, and not only am I taking my half of everything, I'm going after every possible thing I can. Like I said, I don't care anymore.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

You are talking the game of someone who probably will just keep on giving them more and more rope. After this, I swears it, IT'S DONE! Riiiiiight.

Look man, talking will get you nowhere. Why? Cause your side is trying to convince her to stay with you. This is a non-negotiable point. This isn't a "Let's sit down and talk about how you don't support me emotionally and I don't do the laundry" kind of talk. You'll tell her stuff she already knows like you are hurt, it's disrespectful, you can't trust her, and she'll spend the time either wavering or trying to convince you. And you will not feel any better after this. She knows she is doing wrong, yet, she is still inclined to do so.

You want her back? You have to risk losing her. Put EVERYTHING on her side of the court. Spike the god damn ball! File. Give her the papers and say, "I am going to find someone who wants to be with just me. Take a hike sister." Then either she allows that to happen or she fights for you. Both ways you win.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Herschel said:


> You are talking the game of someone who probably will just keep on giving them more and more rope. After this, I swears it, IT'S DONE! Riiiiiight.
> 
> Look man, talking will get you nowhere. Why? Cause your side is trying to convince her to stay with you. This is a non-negotiable point. This isn't a "Let's sit down and talk about how you don't support me emotionally and I don't do the laundry" kind of talk. You'll tell her stuff she already knows like you are hurt, it's disrespectful, you can't trust her, and she'll spend the time either wavering or trying to convince you. And you will not feel any better after this. She knows she is doing wrong, yet, she is still inclined to do so.
> 
> You want her back? You have to risk losing her. Put EVERYTHING on her side of the court. Spike the god damn ball! File. Give her the papers and say, "I am going to find someone who wants to be with just me. Take a hike sister." Then either she allows that to happen or she fights for you. Both ways you win.


I already have put everything on her side of the court and I'm not trying to convince her of anything. I've told her straight out that I'm done with all of it, I know what's happened, I know she's lied, I know there's more to all of it then she's told me, and that I don't trust or believe her anymore. I told her the reason we need to talk and work things out is that regardless of if we stay together, we're still going to be in each others lives for a long time because of our son. Either way we need some kind of resolution to things other wise the feelings we have now towards and about each other will always remain. If we stay together and work things out that's great, we've built a great life and family together, have a lot of history together and I do love her, but I don't need to work things out and stay with her to be happy


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

AtMyEnd said:


> I already have put everything on her side of the court and I'm not trying to convince her of anything. I've told her straight out that I'm done with all of it, I know what's happened, I know she's lied, I know there's more to all of it then she's told me, and that I don't trust or believe her anymore. I told her the reason we need to talk and work things out is that regardless of if we stay together, we're still going to be in each others lives for a long time because of our son. Either way we need some kind of resolution to things other wise the feelings we have now towards and about each other will always remain. If we stay together and work things out that's great, we've built a great life and family together, have a lot of history together and I do love her, but I don't need to work things out and stay with her to be happy


I get that, and I am all for a nice happy relationship after divorce. Nothing is more important that managing it well, not just for your kid, but for you.

It just seems that you are still hoping she will come down on your side of the fence through talking about the situation. If I am reading that wrong, then mea culpa. I just don't think you'll feel satisfied at all until she shows she is coming after you (and that really can only be done when you are legit...I'm done).


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Herschel said:


> I get that, and I am all for a nice happy relationship after divorce. Nothing is more important that managing it well, not just for your kid, but for you.
> 
> It just seems that you are still hoping she will come down on your side of the fence through talking about the situation. If I am reading that wrong, then mea culpa. I just don't think you'll feel satisfied at all until she shows she is coming after you (and that really can only be done when you are legit...I'm done).


Of course there's some hope that she'll come down on my side of the fence, I would've left a long time ago if there wasn't, but she doesn't have to. As long as we talk and come to some kind of understanding and resolution to all of it, that's what matters. Whether we stay together or divorce, we have a child together and both need to be there for him in a positive way and in a way that he doesn't see that we hate each other. And adding to that, if we never resolve anything and get divorced, there will always be those feelings and questions towards the other that will always just cause unneeded stress in both our lives.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

It's been a little while since I've updated things so here goes, lol. Back when I told my wife that we needed to finally sit down and talk about things, things had become different. I had told her we needed to talk, she told me she wasn't ready to talk, and I told her that it needed to happen and if it didn't happen by the end of the month that I was done and I was leaving. She didn’t take that very well as she does not like being given ultimatums but I didn’t care.

I said what I needed to say and left the ball in her court. As the days went on her attitude was much better towards me and our relationship, and then I noticed that she hadn’t been wearing her rings for a while. This has happened in the past, she takes them off when she works out or plays sports and sometimes it takes a day or two before she puts them back on. It’s never been a big deal and it’s never bothered me before but it got to a point where it had been over a week since she had worn them. Now I’m at a point in all this where honestly I don’t care which way things go so as much as it bothered me, it was also a sign of how things were going but I wasn’t letting it bother me.

So now I was looking at random things online one morning and saw a concert the next day that she had gotten upset she missed the last time the two performers came around. So I text her if we had any plans for that night and told her to find a babysitter. When she responded telling me we didn’t have plans and asked why we needed a sitter I simply told her that I was taking her out but wouldn’t tell her where. The way I looked at it was that this was something I know she wanted to do and let’s call it a last ditch effort to see a positive reaction out of her towards me. So everything is set, I finally tell her where we’re going but she doesn’t seem all that excited about it, happy yes but not excited. This caught me as a little odd since when we missed this show a few months back she made a big deal about not going and whatever. So we go to the show and get there a little early to tailgate. We were talking, having a couple drinks and talking with the people around us. The people around us went into the show and we stayed to finish our drinks. I could see that the alcohol was hitting her and she started in with the uncalled for comments towards me, I brushed them off and changed subjects as I did not what to get into an argument and I really did just want it to be a fun night. We headed into the show but her attitude towards me was in full force. I told her as we were walking that there was no need for any of it and I just wanted to have a good night. She just kept up with the attitude and then we saw a friend of ours. We ended up watching the show by our friend and the people he was with, she was being her typical self towards me but I just kept having a great time with everyone else and ignoring her, but at the same time letting her see that her attitude towards me wasn’t going to ruin my night. Driving home that night I had it in my head that I was going to tell her that it was over, I’ve tried my best but she still remains dismissive and outright mean towards me and I was done.

The next morning I took my ring off and put it away, I left for work just telling her I’d see her later as I walked out the door and that was it. A few hours later I get a text from her saying how she doesn’t know why she treats me the way she does and acts the way she does around me. She also said how it’s not fair to me, that she really doesn’t know why she does it and that she’s sorry. I thought OMG she’s finally acknowledging something I’ve been saying for years that she’s always argued she doesn’t do. I was actually really taken back by it. I didn’t respond to the text and a little while later she sent another one basically saying the same thing and saying how she doesn’t blame me for hating her, and that she hates the way she is around me too. I told her that I didn’t hate her and I’m not mad at her, I’m just frustrated by all of it. I didn’t say anything other than that and didn’t hear from her again except about a couple things regarding our son. I kept up with the full on 180 and did so for a while after that. I wasn’t going to push the issue about us needing to talk because I felt that she’s finally admitted, acknowledged and apologized for how she treats me, something I’ve complained about and argued with her about for a long time. I felt that maybe this was the beginning of her wanting to change things and felt if I brought up needing to talk that it would push her in the wrong direction.

So things actually really started going pretty well since then, her attitude is much better, we’ve been getting along great and she really went out of her way to make Father’s Day really nice and special. There have been a few moments were I saw her attitude start to change a little but I just ignored it, brushed it off and made sure she saw it wasn’t bothering me and I had better things to do and the attitude went away. So maybe she finally is coming to her senses about things and wants to work to see if we can save what we have left, only time will tell, but things have been much better. She has actually been making a noticeable effort on her part which she hasn’t done before. I’m still not falling for any of it and need to see her keep it up for a while before I believe it’s real, but I’m going to stick around a little longer and see what happens. Maybe this is the beginning of a turning point in the right direction, or maybe it’s just a moment of guilt that will pass. We’ll see what happens.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Good job standing up for yourself. Always helps.

I would initiate a bi-weekly 'state of the marriage' meeting, maybe every other Sunday night, where you are both free to discuss how you think things are going, things you noticed over the past 2 weeks, things you'd like changed. Not a gripefest, just an informational meeting, so that each of you can take what you heard back with you and think on it and see if you want to act on it. It can go a long way toward making her change permanent.


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## Noble1 (Oct 25, 2013)

Sounds like things are turning around for you for the most part.

The important thing is has your wife stopped crossing the boundary about other men yet?

Good luck.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Noble1 said:


> Sounds like things are turning around for you for the most part.
> 
> The important thing is has your wife stopped crossing the boundary about other men yet?
> 
> Good luck.


For the most part, yes. I say for the most part because I haven't noticed anything that would tell me otherwise. But, we do still play volleyball every Wednesday, and OM #2 still plays on one of the other teams. We are friendly with all the other people on his team so we do see and talk to them and him. She has been good as far as only saying hello to him and then talking to the others we know. However she does from time to time talk to him while we're there. I keep an eye on things without making it obvious that I'm watching and I do see her look at me occasionally to see if I'm watching her. It seems to be like with other things she's done, she's testing me to see what I'll do or say if she talks to him. It is an awkward situation since playing is something we both enjoy and have fun playing together so there is that bonding thing to it. It's hard to avoid him because we are friends with the 6 other people on his team and would be weird if we ignored all of them, but I will say that she hasn't done anything recently that I would call questionable.

Both her and OM #2 know exactly where I stand on things, and they both know that I have no problem knocking him out if something were to happen. It's kind of that happy medium right know of yes we'll be friendly because there are others around that don't know what happened, but no I'm not going to go out of my way to be nice. Trust needs to be built back up between my wife and I on both sides. I think that this is actually helping that, but again , we'll see as time goes on. If she's going to do it I have no real way of stopping that. And at the same time, if I find out about it again, it just makes it that much easier to walk away from the marriage.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

turnera said:


> Good job standing up for yourself. Always helps.
> 
> I would initiate a bi-weekly 'state of the marriage' meeting, maybe every other Sunday night, where you are both free to discuss how you think things are going, things you noticed over the past 2 weeks, things you'd like changed. Not a gripefest, just an informational meeting, so that each of you can take what you heard back with you and think on it and see if you want to act on it. It can go a long way toward making her change permanent.


I've thought about that and even mentioned it to her. She feels that she doesn't want to "measure" how things are going and that by doing that could just cause tension, and I somewhat agree with her. I would rather just see how things go, see what her reactions are to things that happen and go from there. If something happens that really bothers me, sure I'm going to say something, but I'm not going to start a discussion about it. I'll make my point and that's it. I will say though that since she apologized for the way she treats me, she has made some somewhat apologetic comments about things she's done. Like she got really drunk one night and started in a little with her typical BS towards me. I ignored it and just kept doing what I was doing, and the next day she made a comment about how "That last drink really hit me and I hadn't really eaten much all day" I know that doesn't sound like much, but knowing her, that was her way of telling me she knew she drank too much and was being rude to me and that she was sorry. The attitude still comes out from time to time but not as often and not as bad, so we'll see what happens.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Such meetings would allow you to air the fact that she is sh*t testing you and it makes you unhappy. And let her go away and think about it. And if you have to bring it up yet again at the next meeting, it means she doesn't care if it makes you unhappy. And if you start seeing a pattern here, it will become time to address whether you two are REALLY happy or not. 

Re: her talking to OM...WHY? Tell me one good reason she should (1) have to talk to him and (2) be ALLOWED to talk to him.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

turnera said:


> Such meetings would allow you to air the fact that she is sh*t testing you and it makes you unhappy. And let her go away and think about it. And if you have to bring it up yet again at the next meeting, it means she doesn't care if it makes you unhappy. And if you start seeing a pattern here, it will become time to address whether you two are REALLY happy or not.
> 
> Re: her talking to OM...WHY? Tell me one good reason she should (1) have to talk to him and (2) be ALLOWED to talk to him.


QFE. She is absolutely **** testing you and you're failing the test. Right now she's experimenting to see just how far she can push you, and it's looking pretty far.

Are either of you wearing rings now? Has that been discussed?


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

turnera said:


> Such meetings would allow you to air the fact that she is sh*t testing you and it makes you unhappy. And let her go away and think about it. And if you have to bring it up yet again at the next meeting, it means she doesn't care if it makes you unhappy. And if you start seeing a pattern here, it will become time to address whether you two are REALLY happy or not.
> 
> Re: her talking to OM...WHY? Tell me one good reason she should (1) have to talk to him and (2) be ALLOWED to talk to him.


Like I said, she does it as a test. The first week of volleyball she said hi to him and everyone else but that was it, she didn't talk to him. The next week she did the same and she talked to him in a conversation with a few other people because he said something to her. The week after that she started talking to him, on the way home I told her I didn't want her talking to him. If he says something in a conversation between a couple people that's one thing but not one on one. The next week she didn't talk to him at all. Like I said it's a strange situation, there's our group and his group. Over the years it's become natural to all hang around together after the games. Personally I like some of the other people on his team and enjoy talking to them and don't want to deprive myself of that.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Yep she is testing you and having tantrums because your frame won't cave under her scrutiny and ridicule.

This is actually a very normal process for a woman who stepped way outside of her boundaries. She can't believe that NOW you will not eat the sh1t sandwich happily. 

Next time, if she has a tantrum after you've gone out of your way to take her out for a good time, send her home in a taxi and you go have fun.

And she DOES know why she is behaving badly. She knows exactly why, but she is ASHAMED to own it. She must if there is to be any improvement.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So has she talked to him again since you said no more?

What will happen if she does? She needs to know what will happen.


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## deepsouth (Apr 28, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> ... Over the years it's become natural to all hang around together after the games. Personally I like some of the other people on his team and enjoy talking to them and don't want to deprive myself of that.


If this is what you accept (because you wouldn't want to deprive yourself) what would you have done if it was a workplace affair? Good grief, you're talking about a game? A game, for crying out loud! If you can't set up a simple boundary when it is nothing but a game I can't see that the marriage is worth much.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

deepsouth said:


> If this is what you accept (because you wouldn't want to deprive yourself) what would you have done if it was a workplace affair? Good grief, you're talking about a game? A game, for crying out loud! If you can't set up a simple boundary when it is nothing but a game I can't see that the marriage is worth much.


There is a boundary, and when it's pushed I tell her. Just because there have been issues in a marriage or in life itself, you can't seclude yourself or anyone else from social situations and things you enjoy doing for yourself. If you have to live constantly withdrawing yourself from situations and constantly worry about what might happen then the relationship isn't worth it in the first place. That's something I realized throughout all of this, I was constantly thinking about all the "what if's?", I kept myself away from things worrying something would happen or be said that would trigger me to start questioning everything. Not only did that drive me completely crazy and cause even more problems in my marriage, but it caused me to lose who I am. If a spouse is going to cheat or act inappropriately, there's nothing any of us can do about it.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

turnera said:


> So has she talked to him again since you said no more?
> 
> What will happen if she does? She needs to know what will happen.


She hasn't talked to him one on one since I said something. She has been part of conversations between the group but that's hard to avoid in a social situation


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## Sparta (Sep 4, 2014)

OP after reading your update buddy I'm sorry man she's just trying to tell you that she not into you anymore, and she wants to date her OM and a couple other guys because she's been married and she wants strange. She just doesn't have the guts or the integrity to do the right thing and divorce you. She doesn't want to be the cause of it she want you to divorce her she want you to get so mad that you just say **** it I'm out here and you're right there. She wants to protect her little reputation she does not want to be the bad guy that cause your divorce... so she's pushing you until you finally had enough. Also her taking off her rings 💍 That's her way of telling you to file for divorce. Remember he doesn't want to be the cause of the end of your marriage. That's the only reason why she still there. And I'm positive you know this to be true. but you still love her and you don't want this to end. You can't make someone love you. she doesn't want to be with you, that sucks... you should do the right thing. File for divorce and set her free if you really love her set her free. And I'm going to attach a little something else you should read..! 


This is a masterpiece I detaching and letting your spouse go free when you've been cheating on this is the ultimate answer this is what you should say to anybody who cheats on you.!!!

Just Let Them Go

The end result?

The end result is to respect yourself in the end,
let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.

That is the end result.

The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.

Seriously, the quickest way to get them back.

Nothing else works better or quicker.

Let them go.

Agree with them and their feelings,
"you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye"

Wouldn't that be true love?

If you really loved your spouse,
and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with,
wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them?

Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it?
Just let them go. Give them their freedom.

You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved.

I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage sucks and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person.

But cheating, no excuses.

Think about cheating.
A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense?

Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing.

Fighting the affair? For what reason?
To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse?
What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse?
They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process.

And for your last point,
The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this.

"Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."

You give them what they want.
You don't fight them on this issue.
You agree with their feelings,
they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person.

You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner.

You can't say "don't love them, love me instead",
you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them",
you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me"

I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back.

You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you.

Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them.


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