# Navigating Limbo



## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

Starting a new thread (I seem to make new threads at each stage of dealing with this marriage-destruction's fallout); made sense of the 180 -- it's for me, not for him. Recognizing that I have 3 choices and the agency to make those choices: rug-sweep and suffer, limbo until I find a decision, or cut my losses now. Not yet able to let go into D (still love him), nowhere near ready for R (if even possible given our e-abusive dysfunction; we both need to fix ourselves), and so I'm trying to navigate limbo. That's my new concern. 

WH & I have been together 7.5 years, 6 years in an LDR, 1 year married, .5 years separated but in sporadic contact. He became emotionally abusive; it seems to be the result of serious secret cheating and the onset of an uncontrolled illness. Family intervention and expose went badly. We ended up separated, though I would have preferred MC and I think he would have, too. He's threatening violence now. Don't know if he means it or is messing with my head. Don't know if I want out or want to wait for him to come to his senses, or if he ever will. Don't know if this is salvageable; depends on if we can work out our separate issues and change and become different people. I guess. He claims he's trying to control his anger, admits no wrongdoing. I'm seeing a therapist.

We were no contact until recently when we had a handful of email exchanges -- he tried to explain that he cared, but isn't coming clean. Is an apology so much to ask for? I understand what others have said, that if he cared, he'd make things right by being remorseful and showing me he cares rather than trying to bully me into believing he's innocent of his bad behavior. I guess I'm still hoping that he will eventually man up and be honest and then we can either R or D after we talk about what happened and why.

6 months since DDay; shock's finally wearing off. Letting go doesn't mean just not reaching out, it means actually letting go of hope…don't know how to, though. It's not in me to give up on those I love. I miss him every day. I look like I'm doing fine, but every day is a struggle and I hate my own emotional weakness and inability to stop caring. I'm trying to finish my degree this semester and maybe when I'm done I'll feel strong enough to make some decisions regardless of whether or not he's still denying. 

So, still in limbo…but recognizing that I can't wait in limbo forever. Recognizing that this is a choice.


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## jen1020 (Dec 18, 2011)

Hi desert-rose

As someone else who has been in a long term emotionally/verbally abusive relationship (and on top of that he is also now unfaithful), I wonder how much more a person can take.

Personally I know that I continued this for so long because it wears you down and I had low self esteem. You start to believe the stuff they say and the put downs. It is all about control, it makes them feel better about themselves and their situation. 

I look back at all these years and see a cycle. He says something horrible, I tell him he is out of order, he says sorry, I forgive him and then he does the same xxx amount of time later and so on. Unless someone makes some serious changes, such as long term therapy then you can expect future behaviour to be exactly the same.

I know you say 'its not in me to give up on those I love'. Don't give so much though that you end up losing yourself and doing irreparable damage to your soul. He isn't doing his utmost for you, so why do it for him? You are worth so much more. Respect yourself.

Best wishes

Jen


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

desert-rose said:


> WH & I have been together 7.5 years, 6 years in an LDR, 1 year married, .5 years separated but in sporadic contact. He became emotionally abusive; it seems to be the result of serious secret cheating and the onset of an uncontrolled illness. He's threatening violence now. Don't know if he means it or is messing with my head.


Run, Forrest, run.

Abuse is no joke. Get out while you can.

Idk who long you've been in limbo but I think it's been a significant amount of time. If he wanted to work things out, he would. 

Drop the rope.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

I understand limbo and indecision, and fully support the concept of not giving up on someone, but the threat of violence after long-term emotional abuse combined with not even owning up to it suggests a real dead-end to me. 

Like jen said, respect yourself. 
There's enough work for you to do on that alone to take all your focus on missing whatever it is or was about him you might miss.

With real self-respect will come the ability to be with someone worthy of your love, time, patience, and attention.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

Thanks everyone, for your candor. I think I'm having a difficult times coming to terms with the manipulative and emotionally abusive aspects of our dysfunction because the good was so very good, which makes this less than clear-cut for me.

I'm noticing a lot of comments about self-respect and I appreciate the supportive angle from which that comes, but I think I am missing something. I think I'm having a hard time letting go of my feelings of hope or hope that he will eventually make this right because I'm not seeing how my choice to stay in limbo is indicative of lack of self-respect. I can see how it would be lack of self-respect to allow him to continue treating me this way, but we are separated and that's not happening. I just see his behavior as misplaced anger that he needs to control, but...why am I not respecting myself by hoping he will honor his commitment and prove that he is who he claims he is once the dust settles?

I know this sounds foolish and stupid and I'm not trying to be contrary. The way things fell apart was just such a mess and things got really out of hand with my family, also. I lost my family of origin and my family of marriage all at once, but my own feelings and wishes and agency got discarded in the process by everyone else, so I'm finding that I'm very confused about what I want, how I'm interpreting things, and whether or not I'm just over-reacting to his behavior (which he believes). I know that we had a lot of problems, but, honestly, I thought that the good outweighed the bad -- except that the bad was bad enough that it needed to be addressed and things put on hold in the meantime.

Is it possible that I'm just too "sensitive" and reacting too strongly to discord between us that was mostly normal? Is this all my fault? This sounds like rug-sweeping. I know I deserve better treatment, but I can't help wishing it would be better treatment from him because he understands, finally. 

I know I sound a little foolish, but....why is this considered a lack of self-respect rather than a willingness to compromise? I'm overly fond of the sentiment that the reed that bends doesn't break, but I fear that I'm hopelessly bent out of shape from bending for so many people's wishes for so long and I am not sure I know how to stand straight anymore. I loved him and still do and I miss him every day (the good things, not the bad things), and I don't understand why he would have gone to such lengths through such obstacles to make things work with me, only to just discard and deceive me like this once we got married. It makes me feel like I'm just being too unforgiving....I know this all sounds wrong. Can you guys give me some insight into this aspect?


Things have gotten so out of hand that I can't see how it would ever leave limbo into R. He's making no effort at all. I am not making an effort because I think it should be him earning it if he wants a chance again. More than I'm mad at him, I miss him and what I thought we had. And, I feel completely lost most of the time and....like a spool of thread that's been unraveled and is now in tangled knots all over the floor.


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## jen1020 (Dec 18, 2011)

Hi desert-rose

Great question about how emotional abuse relates to self-respect.

I'm not expert apart from personal experience but will try to explain. Each time someone bullies you, puts you down or threatens you etc, you lose a little bit of your self respect and self esteem. You know that what they are saying wrong, yet you reason with it and have internal battles thinking - well hey, I love this guy and I think he loves me so he wouldn't say anything to deliberately hurt me right? But inside, you know deep down that your core values are telling you the situation is very wrong, yet you continue to stay, or bargain with him hoping that he will eventually understand that he is hurting you. That is why you start to lose your self esteem because the other person is not respecting you.

Compromise is great in a healthy relationship. Think about what compromises your partner has made in an attempt to heal your relationship. Has he made any at all - is he giving his all to try to understand why he is acting the way he is, like therapy? There is no excuse for emotional abuse or threats, not ever. Your reaction to his behaviour is normal and healthy (you are not over-reacting, this is his way of not owning his behaviour by telling you it is your problem).

This link explains about self respect/emotional abuse better than I can:-

Verbal / Emotional / Mental / Psych. Abuse

Best wishes 

Jen


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## blissful (Nov 14, 2011)

I've just spent a large part of my day reading through all your posts from inception. thank you for so eloquently writing everything I have been feeling, but have been unable to verbalise adequately. It really helps hearing it from some one else's perspective.

I don't have any advice for you, I just wanted to share my story with you so that you know someone else is going through this too. Sorry if it's too long & boring.

I'm sorry you're struggling with the limbo- the logical part of you thinks that you should just get it over with, but then the other part thinks that by doing this YOU will be responsible for the final nail in the coffin (and no one wants that honour in a relationship).

I too was/ am a fiercely independant woman who had to carve out this special place for her H, but once I did that he took pride of place in my heart. Achievements were so much sweeter when shared with him. Disappointments didn't seem as sad. Then suddenly everything that you believed to be true is turned on it's head in an instant. 

We know each other for 12 years, married for 5. Early 30's, no kids. Best friends. I pulled away from many friends once things became serious (he fulfilled that friendhip need that I had, so I no longer felt the need to nurture friendships outside of the relationship). I feel really dumb for doing that now. He cheated on me with 2 other people when we first met, but we were 18 years old (age is not an excuse though but I felt that he was young & needed to get it out of his system). Since then he has proven to be completely trustworthy & reliable.

Began having some boundary issue with his parents. Got quite intense late last year. I was unhappy because he wouldn't enforce boundaries with them & I didn't like their subtle underminning of me etc. We have been working on that. Then I accidently discovered a chat between him & an ex on his phone. Nothing sexually explicit but *very* flirtatious. He tried to downplay it & accused me of being insecure, jealous, controlling etc. I am not by nature a jealous person. Never have been. Then discovered a seceret facebook account that has been around for the last 4 years of our marriage. Been used to contact exs & weird friends that are not known to the marriage. No marital status or mention of a W ever.

I understand that there was no PA involved, but the lies involved for the duration of my marriage, have left me reeling. Just because he didn't cosumate the relationship with the ex, doesn't mean that it wasn't an affair. If she was in the same country as us, I have no doubt that it would have been more than just talking.

He has not had the decency of admitting anything or apologising for it. Our intervention was similar to yours- with the family involvement. Instead of him admitting fault, he became arrogant, rude & downright disrespectful. I regret involving his family. I don't believe they were of any help to the situation. Instead they bought into his BS (even though it was crystal clear that he was lying). Now I'm the bad guy. The crazy. The psychotic who over reacted.

Seperated for 1 month. He hasn't tried to contact me at all. I've gotten an email blaming me and another trivialising this whole situation and that's it. He was more concerned about what his family though about him than about what DDay did to me. He left immediately after, went to their place to smooth things over with them. To he!! with me. After all, who am I- no one, just his W. His ego and the way his family perceive him were more important.

So I guess the questions to answer are, how long am I going to wait for him to admit the "truth"? How much of the "truth" will he be willing to share? How much of that "truth" do I actually want to hear? And finally how could I be such a bad judge of character that I didn't see this mean, vindictive, nasty person hiding inside him for all these years? I've known him practically my entire adult life, yet it seems that I never really knew him at all...

Good luck with your situation and thanks once again, whether you realised it or not, your sharing has helped someone.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

Let me take it a step further: 

People with abundant self-respect do not tolerate, much less pine away for someone who is abusive and threatens violence (whether you think he 'means it' or not, depending on how specific and what threats there were in some places this itself is a crime), not even trying for 1/2 a year or more, taking no accountability and lying to you about his actions and feelings.

What you need to figure out is, Why that type of person is not you. Please don't mix "we've had some issues, but I love him" with "he can abuse me and I will tolerate it".

Take it another step further and think about your image of people who are really "abused" yet stay in the relationship... waiting, waiting, waiting for that person to 'change' or to show them the love that the abused person 'knows' is there deep inside. When you step away and look objectively, you cannot understand the abused person's lack of self-esteem being the primary reason they do not stand up and say "No."

Not saying that is you, but you youself used the term 'abuse' and spelled out a situation that from out here looks like something many people here would run away from quickly. Only you know and can judge how 'abusive' he is, what you feel toward him, and what your own tolerance and limits are.


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## Mamatomany (Jan 10, 2012)

desert-rose said:


> *We ended up separated, though I would have preferred MC and I think he would have, too. I'm seeing a therapist.*
> 
> *I guess I'm still hoping that he will eventually man up and be honest and then we can either R or D after we talk about what happened and why.*
> 
> ...


I totally understand all of the bolded above! When you figure out the thing about hope let me know(not that I want/ready to yet)! I know my H doesn't have any hope for us... but I have to because of all the kids/history but I know it would be so healthy for me if I could my support system is getting weary (I think)... I think more like I have faith in "US" rather than hope... but I KNOW that in order for any kind of R he will have to make some changes just as I would.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

Jen -- Thank You for the link. I'll look up some resources about self-respect and bullying. I guess I didn't see it or didn't want to see it, but my husband is a bully a lot of the time; sometimes even when he' just being nice he's really pushy and controlling and he doesn't even see it so there's no way to talk to him about changing the problem because it isn't a problem to him. I think that maybe I've been bullied by my family my whole life and just excused it because they have big personalities and don't mean it that way and I'm a bit of a pushover and also because I love them and also because I didn't realize the toxicity in our family dynamic until now, just saw myself as a deficient and problematic nuisance in most circumstances. I thought things would be different with my WH, but, he turned out to be really controlling and manipulative in ways I never expected or detected during out many years together before marriage. His angry words and threats are not sitting well with me. I've been putting my own feelings on hold long enough for him to get his temper under control, but…..after 6 months of waiting on his rage to subside while ignoring his insults and blameshifts and gaslighting, isn't it time yet for me to be angry about his cheating and abuse and violation of my family's privacy and trust? I thought I'd wait till the dust cleared to make sense of things and walk toward either R or D with dignity and understanding between us, but I'm not sure what to feel now. If it's taken him this long to even consider owning up to his behavior and wrongdoing (which he hasn't yet done), then I don't see how he will ever make the kind of changes in his own actions and life that would make our relationship safe. I have lost trust and faith in him. He has failed me in every way (except that I am genuinely delighted in who he is when he isn't being hurtful). I'm now going through a major crisis in my life and I am going through it alone because the person who was supposed to be there for me chose to be unreliable and immature and petty -- after betraying me so completely. I saw so much in him….was I just seeing what I wanted to? Just the tip of the iceberg while the rest of him was beneath the surface? I am so disappointed by him….and I just kept hoping that he would fix it, but….now I wonder if he would be able to, even if he tried, which he isn't doing. I just find myself being really really sad because…I guess he just isn't who I thought he was. I don't really know what a healthy relationship is like in practice, just in theory, I think. I'm trying to do what would be logical and healthy, but it's not working…

blissful -- I'm sorry to hear you're going through something similar, but glad that my words are in some way helpful to you. Thank you for sharing your story. I'll say more in a bit, but am short on time at the moment.

2xloser -- You've raised some important questions that I will need to think about. Thank you. "Abuse" is a difficult term for me because of various experiences I've had in my own life that make it hard for me to acknowledge when people are crossing a line and when I deserve it or don't. Three different therapists have characterized our relationship as emotionally abusive. Looking at the descriptions, it seems like it fits. But I have a hard time calling it abuse, seeing him as an abuser; I can understand why he does what he does and that it doesn't have to do with me but his own anger and I let go if it or I tend to see it as a failure on my part to be good enough to warrant better treatment from him or self-restraint on his part or to inspire better behavior in him. I know he loves me. I also know he doesn't intend to his behavior to be harmful or malicious, just that he is immature in some ways. I know that I can't base a relationship on what we're like in our best moments if our worst moments tear things apart. I know this is problematic, but, I'm struggling with this. I don't like accepting the term "abuse", even if it seems to fit, and so I'm struggling to come to terms with the fact that what he did was a betrayal and what he's doing is abusive and that I don't have to allow it. I must sound incredibly foolish or ridiculous to you, but I am an educated and generally self-confident woman. However, I've been treated badly by a lot of people in my life and I haven't yet got the hang of knowing when someone else has stepped over the line because I don't know if I'm just being too sensitive or reactionary or something. It's seems that I've been traumatized by some things in my life that have made boundaries really complicated for me. It's not that I don't respect myself, just that I can't really tell when it isn't my place to accept blame and responsibility because I'm used to just putting when I really want or need or feel to the side in order to take care of what other people need. I see endurance as strength and resistance as weakness or inability to adapt and it's damaging me and making it hard for me to make sense of this. I used to be independent, self-possessed, strong, confident, dynamic…I don't know where those parts of me have gone.

Mamatomany -- I'm finding that hope is both good and bad and causes me a lot of surprising internal conflict. It's tough to know what to hold on to and what to let go of when our relationships become foundational aspects of our lives, isn't it?


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## I_Will_Survive (Oct 28, 2011)

desert-rose said:


> ji've been putting my own feelings on hold long enough for him to get his temper under control, but…..*after 6 months of waiting on his rage to subside* while ignoring his insults and blameshifts and gaslighting, *isn't it time yet for me to be angry about his cheating and abuse and violation of my family's privacy and trust?*


omg yes!!!!


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

I'm still sad, today, but....I'm actually angry, too, and disgusted and disappointed. His behavior has been so immature, so vulgar, and I expected better from him; he promised me better. Whether his reason was cake-eating, using me, falling out of love, ending up with me when he only intended me as a back-up plan and then being resentful, I just wish he'd own up to it and tell me so that I could just understand and get over it. We had so much good together, so why would he corrupt the core? We fought for years to make our life together happen, so why would he destroy it all for worthless thrills? I just don't understand.

And now, I'm going through some really difficult things...which I believe he knows about, the kind of things that you set aside differences to be supportive about if you care for someone at all, but he hasn't shown any sort of gesture at all in the ways that matter to me and that feels more like indifference than love; he is only interested in winning the fight he is fighting so he doesn't have to face what he's done and his comments are either sarcastic and passive aggressive or woefully inadequate if they are meant to indicate sincerity. I think this hurts most of all. After all this time, I don't know if I even want to wait for him to try and fix it. I don't think he will do what it takes to fix things or even if things are fixable...and I feel myself closing up and hardening my heart to him, which hurts, too.

I kept wondering if this was my fault, or my misunderstanding, because he kept blaming me, because I do love him, but...I think he just doesn't want to be exposed as an immature idiot and is gas-lighting. I just can't make sense of why he would do all of this to me. I trusted him. He really behaved quite badly. I'm starting to feel upset about the wrongness of it and the worse wrongness of his response when caught....I'd forgive him if he expressed remorse and committed fully and treated me right, but....I don't think he feels bad and I don't think he'll make any compromises....and I don't think that a person who loves another person would behave this way....I feel like such a jerk saying these things, doubting him, but....he has shown himself to be unreliable and untrustworthy and he has failed me and he doesn't seem to be making an effort to change that....so I guess I don't really matter to him, at the end of the day....


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Drose---- someone can only emotionally abuse you, if you need them emotionally. I spent a long time blaming my H for what was wrong in my life. It got me nowhere. 

Then one day I just woke up. I stopped asking why he didn't give me what I needed----started asking why I would stay with someone who blamed me for everything that was going wrong....hmmmmmm.....very interesting, isn't it?

Why do we put up with the disrespect? I kept asking this question, it kept me stuck. Was it childhood, self-esteem issues, fear, love, WHO CARES ? ! I finally said, who cares why?? 

When you come upon a man who is bleeding out from a wound....you don't say, "How did this happen?" "Who caused this wound?" "How long has this wound been here?" You just do all you can to stop the bleeding.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

desert-rose, I feel terrible for you; I understand the pain and the struggle you are enduring right now realizing this person as truly let you down, that he values his own shallow self-perceptions above what it is doing to you. And I am sorry. 

You will get through this. You will come to realize how even if he suddenly did a turnaround and gave you the lip service of words you so badly want to hear right now, your eyes are being opened to who and what he truly is -- and how that doesn't really fit with what you need.

Yet even now through all that's happened, you'd "forgive him if he expressed remorse and committed fully and treated me right".... ask yourself if this is a person who is _capable_ of treatng you right. Because you deserve to have that earned faith in whomever you are with -- not have it pushed back in your face to make you so disappointed.

I do hope you are getting some counseling for yourself -- good luck to you.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

My youngest sister was in an abusive relationship. Her husband was a body builder and was using steroids and became abusive, physically, verbally and emotionally. She would not leave him because she loved him. My sister got cancer. He became even more abusive. She finally filed for divorce because she had to take care of herself in facing death. He got everything, money, a new truck, and alimoney (he was unemployed). My sister died while I was in Iraq. Her last two years without her husband were happy and full of hope even as she faced death.

They say that love covers a multitude of sins and behaviors and love endures all things, but your love for your husband is hurting you. I am not a person who favors divorse but in cases of abuse you need to leave him. You need to put things in place in your life where he can no longer abuse you. 

Hope can be misguided as there is false hope. We hope to end world hunger but we don't. The best we can do is send money to organizations that feed the poor or give food to our local food banks. But ending world hunger is impossible it is a hopeless concept. I see your husband as hopeless.

People who stay in abusive relationships do so for many reasons and I feel poorly for folks that stay because it is a living hel*.

Please continue with your path of education and self healing and leave him behind. You only have one life to live and you do not deserve this.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

Why can't I just say enough is enough? I don't know why I am having such a hard time letting go. I think I'm holding on to dreams of what could have been or should have been, rather than any indications based on reality that those will happen....

Thorburn, I'm sorry you had to watch your sister go through such a thing. I'm glad she had the insight to know what she wanted to do and that her life did improve for a time. I think I'm just having a hard time accepting that things had become abusive in my situation because it doesn't fit what I would call abuse (it wasn't physical or malicious; I think he was just taking his anger out on me verbally and emotionally) and because I can see that it wasn't intentionally cruel. My STBXH was also into body building, btw. I've been thinking a lot about hope and false hope and love vs loving partnership and I just hope I can feel sure of myself at some point; I felt that there was more good than bad, but people around me seem to think that I'm minimizing the bad and magnifying the good. I'm confused because I love him and now I don't know which the real him is -- the person he seemed to be before we married, or the person he seems to be now that things have become exposed and unraveled. I wish I felt certain about any of it. Thank you for sharing your experiences; I'm going to think about them a bit.

2xloser -- I think he is capable of treating me well, but I think that he is choosing not to. Sometimes, he's very good to me. I've never felt close to anyone like this before and he was the only person I've ever known that has been able to come close to understanding me or what I need...but sometimes, he disregards it or messes with my head and I think he does this to be controlling. I'm not sure. I'm disappointed and I'm feeling really lost.

LWC -- You're right that no one can make us feel things and people only have the power over us that we allow them to have. I spent my whole life feeling disconnected from people and misunderstood and like I didn't belong, until I met him. I thought he understood and valued me. His actions don't indicate that and only indicate deceit and so I'm deeply hurt; it seems to undermine a lot of things for me. I'm trying to sort this out. Knowing that the most real thing I'd ever felt may have just been an illusion....really has me feeling undone. I do have a therapist. I don't know that therapy is helping me right now, but if I can get past whatever this block in my emotional logic is, I think it will kick in again to help me heal a bit.

I don't think I'm pining for him, per se, but I'm completely undone by the loss of what I believed in so deeply that I based much of my life on it as a foundation. I never thought I'd meet someone and want this kind of life and I didn't look for it; I was deeply surprised that I could feel so attached to someone. This feels like being ripped to pieces and its disintegration has torn down all the structures of my life, so I'm rebuilding a lot while trying to make sense of how I feel and what I want.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

Today, I just kind of feel like I've given up. We're still in limbo because I had in my mind a time frame that I wanted to wait to see if he would prove himself to be remorseful or would make some effort beyond gas-lighting and blame-shifting to fix things. It's just that I don't really think he's going to. To be honest, I don't think he cares about me. He claims to. He claims all kinds of things. But...would a person who actually cared about his wife cheat in the first place? And, if he was stupid enough to do it, wouldn't he feel remorse? And, if it took him a while to stop protecting his ego and come clean eventually, wouldn't he make an effort that didn't involve bullying and threats? If he can create an elaborate fantasy life lived online with another woman to save her (a childhood friend) from suicide (what he said was happening that I interpreted as an affair and that he claims wasn't); if he can spend huge chunks of his day "grief counseling" an insipid buffoon that is exploiting her shallow and false grief over her sister's death in order to get boyfriends who are actually married men by incessantly flirting and defend her over me when I tell him I have a problem with it; if he can vent his rage and feelings of powerlessness by creating entire secret lives with fake names and meeting up with sickos on Craig's List after talking about sex online with them....then how hard is it to say either "I'm sorry I hurt you" or "I guess I didn't want to be with you as much as I thought I did"? He really can't value me much at all if after 6 months he can't find the balls to apologize. I really don't think there's anything he can do to fix this because I doubt he feels any remorse, at all. My internal personal deadline, for when I want to talk to him about divorce/reconciliation hasn't happened yet, but, I think I've given up hope, already. He isn't going to apologize because he doesn't give a dam.n.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

Realized something. I don't feel comfortable with the word "abuse" because, to me, it implies malice and also intent; this is something I'm going to have to think about. I do feel comfortable calling my WH/STBXH/EH controlling, manipulative, deceitful, exploitative, and domineering. I didn't realize that he's kind of a bully sometimes. I think he loved me once. I think he stopped loving me when he started cheating and then justifying his cheating. I think he couldn't love someone who didn't notice it or call him out on it, someone he could fool. I trusted him, though, so I ignored the signs and believed him when he blamed his behavior on me, saying I earned it. I think he put me down a lot to justify his own straying and also to keep me at a distance so he could cake-eat. I was completely fooled and deceived by his behavior and he cheated on me for the whole of our marriage and probably much of the time we were dating before. I realize that his words and actions don't match. I don't understand why, though....why he would go to such lengths to secure our relationship if he didn't want it, in the first place. And, since I didn't know about all of this deceit until it all fell apart, I am having a hard time making sense of the illusion. I don't think I'm pining away for him; I think I'm grieving the loss of all that I thought we had. I wanted to wait it out in limbo for a while to see if it wasn't an illusion, if it was real to him and he just messed up, but...I don't think he cares about me and I don't think he wants this marriage to work. Maybe this was an exit strategy on his part...but, then, when I say that we should talk and just resolve things, he refuses, just tells me that it was all my fault and I got it wrong and betrayed him by exposing. Well, maybe he's just the kind of guy that can't be responsible for his own actions and has no integrity. Such a shame. Feeling the loss of faith in one's spouse is somehow even worse than being betrayed. I felt bad before, but....this feels worse. This feels hopeless.

He didn't even plan a date on Valentine's Day or our Anniversary, though they were firsts as we had only been married for a year. He didn't even want to go on a honeymoon. I think I should have known something wasn't right. Most guys don't refuse sex or dates or exotic trips that are conveniently available unless they're getting their kicks elsewhere....


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

I'm grieving for the loss of an illusion. If he's been lying to me for so long, then it isn't just immaturity or bad behavior on his part, but a choice to treat me badly and use me. He isn't who he presented himself to be. What he gave me was hollow.

I am going to have to find a way to close my heart. It's been six months. If he hasn't apologized by now, he isn't going to. I have to accept that he isn't remorseful. This isn't fixable, is it?

I feel guilty, like I'm giving up on him....but, there's no use in expecting him to be someone he isn't. Yes, he is capable of being a good man and a good partner, but he is choosing not to be and that is what I have to remember.


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## blissful (Nov 14, 2011)

If you can please try to get your hands on the book "The gaslighting effect" by Dr. Robin Stern. It describes really well how a partner can manipulate a situation to make you believe you're wrong even in the face of overwhelming proof to the contrary. The reason why they do this is because they have a deep seated need to be seen as right, a knight in shinning armour. It's their own insecurities that lead them to do these things.

Your STBXH (first time you used that term was a few posts ago- you are making progress!) sounds similar to my WH or STBXH in that regard. It's not that he's incapable of loving you. It's that under these circumstances before you allow him to love you and before you love him in return you need something first- that is the whole truth & a show of remorse. This is where the problem lies, if he apologises that means he did something wrong. But he doesn't do that, it's usually you that's wrong. In order for him to be remorseful, he needs to believe that he has done something to warrant that. But again, how can he be remorseful when he wasn't wrong?

If you were prepared to put aside your condition of apology, honesty & remorse, he'd be back to the loving H you've known all along. But as much as the gaslighting and blamshifting went on all these years unchecked. This is one time when your gut, every fibre of your being is screaming at you "hey, this can't be right, how can I be wrong when he's the one stepping out?" This time you can't reconcile yourself to accept the gaslighting and blame shifting. And suddenly that changed the game the way he knows it.

I hoped this makes sense, it's something that I've come to realise in the last few week about my situation (which truly was blissful until recently). I hope you can apply it to you situation.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

blissful said:


> If you were prepared to put aside your condition of apology, honesty & remorse, he'd be back to ... This time you can't reconcile yourself to accept the gaslighting and blame shifting. And suddenly that changed the game the way he knows it.
> 
> I hoped this makes sense, ...


Thank you for the book recommendation. I'll download it to my Nook later today or order it on Amazon. 

I realized that there was gas-lighting going on in the 3 weeks prior to our separation, but I hadn't yet realized how much he was hiding from me as I hadn't discovered the extent of the affair or his deceit at that time. I read about it online and saw that I wasn't going crazy, his behavior wasn't all my fault, and there was something else going on. I sought out a therapist who bluntly told me that I was in an abusive relationship and should leave it. I didn't want to leave because the good outweighed the bad, but I also recognized that if I don't draw a line now, it will never get better.

My feelings and emotions are tearing me up inside, but I' trying not to waver from what I've asked for -- honesty. Without honesty, there is no acceptance of wrongdoing or remorse, and without remorse, there is no change. If I back off and go chase him to try and fix the relationship, he will verbally and emotionally punish me further for daring to question him because that would validate his perspective in his eyes. I see his reactions to things now and he is misdirecting and deflecting constantly. I will say, "you cheated and that isn't okay with me" and he will say "I didn't cheat, how dare you..." and then, he will pick flaws in me and my response to his behavior. So, I'll define what his behavior was and say look "you might call this xyz, but I call it cheating and that is the thing I am having a problem with". When I spell it out, he will give me a blanket statement telling me there is something wrong with me because I'm too stupid to see the layers of complexity. I'm completing a PhD, so I don't think I'm stupid, just emotionally messed up. But....he says all the things that make me question my judgement and he is so definite in his indignant attitude that it makes me question myself just because I love him. Still, I remind myself -- he's had 6 months to fix this and he hasn't once apologized, attempted to accept responsibility, or show any change. I can't yield, no matter how much I want to. And I see his gas-lighting....and it hurts me so much that it kills my love and faith a little more every day. I think I've lost hope, but not entirely, and so I keep walking the line between limbo and letting go entirely. I know that once I close this door, I will really be closing my heart; once I'm done, I'm really done, so, I don't want to do this lightly.

I'm sorry you've been in something like this. It is horrible, isn't it? I will look up the book today. Thank you for your supportive words.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

Some triggers are so unexpected. My day is full of them today. Everytime I let my guard down, something or another comes back to me and I'm crying again. I hate crying. I hate being a ridiculous f-ing mess. I hate the fact that I can't just go over to WH and look him in the face and say, "you're acting like a five year old, man up and treat me right and don't make me be ashamed for marrying you!" I stood by him, though he betrayed me and then tried to make everyone believe I was a psycho suspicious lunatic who falsely accused him of his misdeeds. He believes I kicked him out, believes I didn't defend him when there was an intervention...everyone else who was there would say that I did try to defend him and fix things (even after he had wronged me deeply...and for that, I couldn't go with him until he showed me something was going to change). On top of that, six months later, I'm still hoping he'll behave like the man he claimed to be and not a baboon. We both got kicked out, you could say (my family told me that if I went with my abuser that their door would remain closed to me forever; he didn't seem like he was going to take care of me or treat me right and he seemed like he might hurt me for having challenged him; so I left both of them and went on my own in the hopes of making things right between me and family and me and WH separately), only he wasn't sleeping on anyone's couch or scrambling to get by afterwards while being abused and threatened by me over email and he was the one who screwed me over to begin with. I walk two steps toward calling him and saying we should just make this split official and then I realize I'm still in love with him and I fall apart. How can I ask for things to be finally over when I still wish he'd fix this? And yet it just seems to me like he won't; he cares more about his ego than this marriage and that just hurts. I should be mad, but it's his APs that I'm mad at and mentally curse and that's wrong because this is WH's fault.

How the hell can I love someone who has treated me so badly and doesn't even regret it? I think I'm seriously screwed up.


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## blissful (Nov 14, 2011)

desert-rose said:


> How the hell can I love someone who has treated me so badly and doesn't even regret it? I think I'm seriously screwed up.


You're not screwed up. You just don't wear your heart on your sleeve. You don't fall in love at the drop of a hat. You studied him objectively, weighed up the pros & cons, looked at him rationally & not all lovey dovey and then finally trusted him with your heart. And when you finally did that, you trusted him entirely. You made him your rock, your anchor. That's a tall ask for people as independant as us. 

Now suddenly, for you to admit it's over, means that you have to admit that maybe you never really knew him in the first place. But is it really possible for someone to pretend that well? Is it really possible for you to been that blind? 

In order to give up hope we need to believe that the reality we previously KNEW didn't even exist in the first place. How can we reconcile that all the memories and experiences were just a farce? Our minds are reeling because it knows that those things did happen. Eventually we'l get there, but for know it's one step at a time.

The Serenity Prayer (if you're religious)- "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference". It's helped me in dark times.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

Blissful, you make some good points. I don't open myself up to people easily and I've never allowed myself to love anyone before him....so this was quite possibly the biggest betrayal ever for me. I kinda hate the part of me that felt love, now, the part of me that loves him despite it all. More than I am angry about his actions, I am angry at the way he is refusing now to be accountable and answer for them; he could just say either "Sorry I screwed up, I will try not to do it again" or "I guess I didn't really want this", but instead he is making it all about how I'm too stupid to understand that he never did any of that stuff. His refusal to treat me with dignity, his choice to harbor more lies and deceit, to play mind games with me....that is what hurts even more than his immature and foolish behavior. I don't have to put up with it; but part of me hasn't given up hope that he will at least man up and talk to me about this honestly. If he doesn't want to be with me, I wouldn't ask him to be; but, he's claiming that I'm the one who has kicked him to the curb unfairly and this is messing with my head.

I went out for a great evening with work colleagues tonight. Poetry salon. We talked about art and literature and workshopped some new pieces. It was wonderful and just what I needed to remind me that I am connected to something that matters to me (writing). I came home, exhausted, and now is when I feel the loss of him again. I just want to feel his arms around me like I used to. I just want to sit down at the computer and call him for a videochat like we used to. I miss him. And, then I remember the horrible stuff he did and the way he's behaving now and I don't know if the person I believed in was ever real or just a lie. It just makes me miserable enough to undo all the positive feelings of art and creativity I walked in here with.  

I also talked to my therapist today and found some of my anger; it makes me very uneasy and I don't want to feel angry. Every time I get a little bit angry, I step back and try to forgive, instead, to hope, instead. I feel pathetic and foolish. I wish I could make my feelings be what I want them to be and sometimes I wish I wasn't a victim of my emotions, but they run deep and, so, like a big ship with a lot of momentum, my convictions and actions need a lot of space and time to make a turn.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

I don't want to be afraid of EH. He's capable of being a good person and mostly was a good person to me; his misdeeds were done in secret and he claims it was because he was looking for ways to vent his anger without turning it on me. Sometimes, he did take things out on me (verbal and psychological abuse), and I think he felt bad about it when he did, but, mostly things between us were good (except for imbalances of power and such). So, he's really angry because he believes his secrets have been exposed and he sees me as a traitor. While I don't think it is likely that he will do anything, he seems to be making lots of threats and many of them are vague and disturbing (like he is determined to get revenge and his rage is so out of control that he is a monster). All people are capable of acting on their baser impulses, so I don't want to just dismiss this and say he's only trying to mess with my head because he's mad at me and wants me to feel bad. I don't know how much I should be afraid. I hate to admit this, but I am more afraid than I express and it bothers me that I can think like this about him when he hasn't done this kind of thing to me in the past and has only left it in the realm of ideation. While I know everyone is capable of atrocity and I know he is capable of acting on his threats, I don't believe he will do so at this time because there's no trigger to make him go from thought to action right now. It's something I plan to talk to my therapist about. It's really bumming me out today, so I thought I'd just write about it.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

desert-rose said:


> I don't want to be afraid of EH. He's capable of being a good person and mostly was a good person to me; his misdeeds were done in secret and he claims it was because he was looking for ways to vent his anger without turning it on me. Sometimes, he did take things out on me (verbal and psychological abuse), and I think he felt bad about it when he did, but, mostly things between us were good (except for imbalances of power and such). So, he's really angry because he believes his secrets have been exposed and he sees me as a traitor. While I don't think it is likely that he will do anything, he seems to be making lots of threats and many of them are vague and disturbing (like he is determined to get revenge and his rage is so out of control that he is a monster). All people are capable of acting on their baser impulses, so I don't want to just dismiss this and say he's only trying to mess with my head because he's mad at me and wants me to feel bad. I don't know how much I should be afraid. I hate to admit this, but I am more afraid than I express and it bothers me that I can think like this about him when he hasn't done this kind of thing to me in the past and has only left it in the realm of ideation. While I know everyone is capable of atrocity and I know he is capable of acting on his threats, I don't believe he will do so at this time because there's no trigger to make him go from thought to action right now. It's something I plan to talk to my therapist about. It's really bumming me out today, so I thought I'd just write about it.


Wow, he really has some emotional issues. And you are having a hard time because you are still in his emotional clutches. You must still be mourning what "might have been..." He is counting on this.... 

I have to disagree about nothing being around to trigger his anger. Your H sounds a little Borderline/Narcissistic. I have a soft spot for you because my H leans in this direction also... and one thing to remember about people like this is that they are suffering. But don't be fooled... these type of people have been angry since childhood. They BLAME their anger on people(you), places and things, but that isn't the case. As you know, ANYTHING can become the trigger that unleashes the lava that is always flowing just beneath the surface.

Take care of yourself and end any and all codependent behaviors. These are only used to manipulate you. If you want him to be better and you to be better, you need emotional independence. Know what you want! Don't wait on him to decide it for you. Don't put up with his phone calls or visits if they are threatening to you.

And be safe. Take care of yourself and stay with a friend if he is bullying you and you are alone.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> .
> I have to disagree about nothing being around to trigger his anger. Your H sounds a little Borderline/Narcissistic. I have a soft spot for you because my H leans in this direction also... and one thing to remember about people like this is that they are suffering. But don't be fooled... these type of people have been angry since childhood. They BLAME their anger on people(you), places and things, but that isn't the case. As you know, ANYTHING can become the trigger that unleashes the lava that is always flowing just beneath the surface.
> 
> Take care of yourself and end any and all codependent behaviors.
> ...


Very likely that he is NPD (or BiPolar or BPD). The scary thing is that I understand him and I understand what he's doing and why he's doing what he's doing, but it still hurts me. Definitely missing the good parts of our relationship and feeling so very confused about what I want. His betrayals and sudden change toward me came out of left field and I am just not handling it well. And in part it's because he tells me that *I* am a trigger for his anger and rage because of what *I* did to him. He feels like I'm the one the kicked him out of my life and doesn't see his actions. It feels a little like he's a tiger that's turned on me.

I don't open up to many people. I'm more open on this board than I have been in my whole life. I feel like everything is tumbling out and I can't stop myself. He was the one person I did open up to and actually trust, so this betrayal cuts very very deep. I tried asking my therapist about codependency, but she doesn't think I'm codependent. I am really bad with boundaries though; I have none around those I love.

Today's a really rough day because I am really really missing the good parts of our relationship and him. There were more good than bad parts, but the bad was increasing and was huge in magnitude and unacceptable. I love him but I can't accept this behavior, so I am not accepting it. No excuse for deceit.

He's thousands of miles away, so I don't think I'm in imminent danger and I don't think my family is either, but...I recognize that anything could trigger him and he seems to be indicating that his rage is majorly out of control and he wants revenge. This scares me. He doesn't know where I live now. He knows where my family is. I don't think he'd hurt me, but I think he could hurt them because he feels like they've turned me against him, which isn't true at all. So, this scares me a lot. I had a complete breakdown. I'm a little better, but I still get major panic and anxiety attacks.

Thank you for your words. I'm grateful for the support. I've lost most of my friends over the years and don't really have anyone that I can just call and talk to about my problems, so I come here.  I'm a bit of a loner. I have lots of acquaintances, but few friends, and those I have, I try not to burden with my problems. The two friends I have in this place gave me shelter for a couple of months when I had no place to live after marriage fell apart, so I don't want to keep dragging them down in being my support because I've used my quota up, I think. I'm usually pretty grounded and stable and independent, even in our marriage I earned the money, did the cooking, paid the bills, planned our social events, arranged our travel, supported his goals and dreams, let him be the man in charge and bent to his wishes, and didn't ask him for anything he didn't want to give, but I counted on him to be here when I needed him. This has undone me, really.....


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

So, I thought I'd just accepted that the cheating happened and that I was over it. Today, I'm not over it at all. 

WH has not been honest. He lies, saying that he didn't actually have an affair and that I misunderstood, or tells me that I'm missing vital pieces of info that cause me to see his actions incorrectly. I wish I could believe it was nothing but cake eating, but I just feel disrespected. Today, a line from his email in which he is urging AP to delete her emails and cover her tracks so that they won't get caught because he'd be unable to forgive himself if she suffered some consequences of being discovered because of him...it really makes me hate her. It kinda makes me furious, but I don't like anger, so I'm just trying to tune it out. Maybe she will get leprosy. I would be overjoyed if she became leprous.  I hate these petty thoughts.

I thought I was just sad about limbo and over the cheating. Now I'm mad about the cheating and just miserable again. I can't believe he deceived me so much; he's such a jerk.  I guess you never know what will trigger these awful feelings.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

Realized a little more about why I'm so upset by all of this.

I really made an effort to be a good wife. I committed myself fully to the marriage. I was all in and kept nothing on the side or any secret escape passage out of our situation. I made sacrifices and efforts and I really did everything I could to be a good wife. But, none of it matters because he was cheating the entire time we were married, so he never even gave our marriage a fair shot. I feel duped, cheated, made a fool of. 

If he had given us a real chance and then decided it wasn't what he wanted, if he he'd just said so, if he would even admit his actions, if I didn't love him, this would be easier. But, I put everything in this and lost it all because he wasn't playing a fair hand.  Somehow, that just makes it really hard to bear.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

We've been separated more than six months. If he cared, he'd make an effort to talk to me about working things out rather than blame-shifting, gas-lighting, and denying, right? I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to. Maybe it's time to give up.


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## thrway214 (Feb 24, 2012)

DR, you seem to be having a really hard time letting go. I think the only way you will feel better if you work on feeling better without him. You must move on. If he comes around, then you can work on things, but right now, he isn't in the relationship. So, MOVE ON. You really will feel better. 

My own situation isn't quite as bad as yours, but one thing I have found is that my WW responds best when I work on myself, show no weakness and behave in an independent and strong way. The more weak I look to her, the less she wants to be around me and work on our marriage.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

desert-rose said:


> 6 months since DDay; shock's finally wearing off. Letting go doesn't mean just not reaching out, it means actually letting go of hope…don't know how to, though. It's not in me to give up on those I love. I miss him every day. I look like I'm doing fine, but every day is a struggle and I hate my own emotional weakness and inability to stop caring. I'm trying to finish my degree this semester and maybe when I'm done I'll feel strong enough to make some decisions regardless of whether or not he's still denying.
> 
> So, still in limbo…but recognizing that I can't wait in limbo forever. Recognizing that this is a choice.



Letting go of the future that you thought you had is horrible and debilitating, it holds us back from moving on because for so many years this was the future. We still at some level see them in it. Even if time and time again they tell us that they do not see us in theirs.

It is as hard a thing as you are ever going to do but do it, you must, because my friend until you do there is no space to allow a new future.

Take one day at a time, don't expect too much and allow yourself to be scared of not knowing. 
Allow yourself to think about that future and what could have been and then see it as gone and grieve it.

Allow yourself to wave in the wind and change your future five times a day.
Meet new people, go to new places, do new things. Take little pleasures where you can and eventually these will form a mosaic in a day and you will have had a good day. That day,

That day look around you there will be new people and you will be going to new places that have no past links and your past is buildin as the new person. When you have a little past as only you, you will begin to see the future.
It is tough.. Tonight go outside and look at the stars, smell the night air and be still. Nothing has really changed. Only you.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

I'm so sick of feeling sad. I think I've reached my limit with WH's blame-shifting, gas-lighting, and insults. He chose to behave in an unacceptable way. Things got out of hand. I tried to stand by him. I have tried to talk to him about our problems, but...I guess he wants to be "right" more than he wants to be married. At the very least, he cares more about blame than he does about me. If he wanted us to be together, he'd make an effort to talk to me, but he isn't doing that. His actions seem to indicate that he doesn't want to fix this and I can't fix it on my own, so I am done trying. There is more to life than love. I used to know how to have a good time; maybe it's time to find out if I still do.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

desert-rose said:


> I can't fix it on my own, so I am done trying. There is more to life than love. I used to know how to have a good time; maybe it's time to find out if I still do.


You know, you may find someone down the track who does love you because this selfish prick certainly doesn't! 

You have to look at your self quiet hard when you consider how difficult you have found it to Let Go. I found it hard and there are others here too..
He is exhibiting signs of narcissism and you know what. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. It's a duck. 

He will continue to try and draw you in to his life. Expect false R. Expect anything that will keep you on the hook.

DO NOT BE FOOLED!

As you recover you will see him more and more for what he is and be amazed that you put yourself in the position you did. 

There is love out there where the other person will consider how you feel and what you want. Just take time to heal your self. There is a lot of healing to do. 

Well done  This is the first step on your road to a new and better life.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

ing said:


> You know, you may find someone down the track who does love you because this selfish prick certainly doesn't!
> 
> You have to look at your self quiet hard when you consider how difficult you have found it to Let Go. I found it hard and there are others here too..
> He is exhibiting signs of narcissism and you know what. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. It's a duck.
> ...


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: 

And his actions don't "SEEM to indicate that he doesn't want to fix this" -- they DO indicate exactly that. You aren't mis-reading it; you're seeing it for what it is.

Good luck DR!


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## koolasma (Mar 11, 2012)

I understand limbo and indecision, and fully support the concept of not giving up on someone, but the threat of violence after long-term emotional abuse combined with not even owning up to it suggests a real dead-end to me.


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