# Wives Initiating Sex/Sexual Issues in Marriage



## Mr Wolf

I’ve been reading in this forum and the thread on Does Your Wife Initiate Sex really got me to thinking so I decided to add my perspective. I see so many posts from men and women that have an “it’s the man’s fault tone” and “if he would just change then everything would be okay perspective”. For the record, I am divorced as a result of my ex wife having multiple affairs for which she blamed me 100%. I was also the blame for how she felt about herself, the state of our marriage, her job dissatisfaction, the global economic crisis and any other global societal ill. I am now about 2 months away from marrying a wonderful emotionally healthy woman.

Let’s face it, we all do wrong in relationships at time. People conveniently forget that for every disgruntled woman/man out there with a list of grievances for their partner’s failures, there is a man/woman who has been in a relationship with them who has a list of grievances JUST AS LONG. If you have a mate that accepts and tolerates and loves you through your issues, count yourself blessed. 

Don’t punish the man because he doesn’t meet some nebulous unstated expectation that in all likelihood his wife/GF doesn’t understand herself. Her withdrawal sexually is the punishment cloaked in so many other crappy excuses (I need romance and excitement, I need him to be more dominant, I need him to do more chores around the house, I need him to constantly tell me I’m pretty so I’ll feel good about myself, I need him to listen to me and talk to me, blah, blah, blah). These are legitimate needs but they shouldn’t be used as excuses to punish your man and withdraw from him. People (men and women) need to be adults and deal with the issues in a healthy and productive way. This is not a communication style Mars/Venus issue – it is a being an adult issue. No one should want a tit for tat relationship: If you make me pay (which you have by withdrawing sexually) for everything I've done wrong, then you've stated definitively that the way relationships should work is that people make others pay for their failures. No double standards.

The sexual health of a relationship is the primary responsibility of both the man and the woman. A big part of what bothers a lot of men (sorry for generalizing) over time is the sense that their wife/GF is getting one over on them and that she has access to all of this secret information that he can never have. For relationship advice, I frequently see the implication that if the marriage/relationship has problems – especially sexual problems – then it’s the man’s fault and only he can fix it. He needs to step up and be a MAN! Be more Dominant. Initiate more, be more aggressive, make more money etc. Or he's supposed to become Mr. Emotional Transparency and a surrogate female BFF so she never feels unfulfilled again and gets the Best. Marriage/Relationship. Ever., and thus feel sexually attracted to him because she now feels happy, healthy, whole and amorous with *that* kind of marriage/relationship. In essence this comes down to “look at how much happier we are now that you do everything I want because you are afraid that I will withdraw sexually and now I’m willing to have sex with you and maybe initiate it”!! 

This is one of the major issues I have with most relationship rescue philosophies. They imply that the man must clean up all of his crap, every mean thing he ever said, every insensitive thing he ever did and convert himself into the perfect Robo man in a way that precisely fits his wife's taste...and her job is… well… nothing. And then she might feel like being sexually intimate with him and MIGHT even initiate it once in a while. Just like women find it sexually attractive for a man to initiate sex and be the aggressor, many men find it just as attractive when a woman shows definitive interest, initiates it and is the aggressor – this is why so many men get caught up in affairs as their affair partners are usually way more aggressive about sex than their mates (I am in no way justifying or condoning affairs by anyone). Men don’t’ want to have sex with women who act like shy little school girls - that's gross actually. And by initiating it I don’t mean just wearing something different or nothing at all so that he gets the hint. I mean truly taking the initiative *frequently* to show your man that you have that animalistic, lustful, carnal desire for him and you plan to tear him apart. That also means being very active during your lovemaking – let him know you like what he’s doing, initiate position changes… Let yourselves go physically and emotionally during sex – trust me he WILL NOT JUDGE you.


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## AFEH

I chuckled while reading your post, mainly due to the accuracy, truth of it. In the 42 years I was with my wife she never once denied me sex. As a husband I was pretty good but not always good yet still I wonder if I’m the only husband in the world who had a wife who never denied him sex.

I think it was probably more to do with the woman in my wife than the man in me, but by how much I just don’t know.

But I do believe the husband has got to behave such that he is a keeper (in that his wife always wants to keep him by her side) and likewise I believe it’s mainly for the man to make sex something his wife looks forward to, something she enjoys doing for herself and for her husband. And in that he needs to be creative and come up with many ways of enjoying sex. The sex wont always be passionate, sometimes it will be dutiful, other times quickies and whatever else.

For me it was one of the gifts, blessings my wife brought to me in my marriage to her.


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## Mello_Yellow

AFEH said:


> As a husband I was pretty good but not always good yet still I wonder if I’m the only husband in the world who had a wife who never denied him sex.


Yep, you are the only one!


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## MAEPT10

Mr Wolf said:


> I’ve been reading in this forum and the thread on Does Your Wife Initiate Sex really got me to thinking so I decided to add my perspective. I see so many posts from men and women that have an “it’s the man’s fault tone” and “if he would just change then everything would be okay perspective”. For the record, I am divorced as a result of my ex wife having multiple affairs for which she blamed me 100%. I was also the blame for how she felt about herself, the state of our marriage, her job dissatisfaction, the global economic crisis and any other global societal ill. I am now about 2 months away from marrying a wonderful emotionally healthy woman.
> 
> Let’s face it, we all do wrong in relationships at time. People conveniently forget that for every disgruntled woman/man out there with a list of grievances for their partner’s failures, there is a man/woman who has been in a relationship with them who has a list of grievances JUST AS LONG. If you have a mate that accepts and tolerates and loves you through your issues, count yourself blessed.
> 
> Don’t punish the man because he doesn’t meet some nebulous unstated expectation that in all likelihood his wife/GF doesn’t understand herself. Her withdrawal sexually is the punishment cloaked in so many other crappy excuses (I need romance and excitement, I need him to be more dominant, I need him to do more chores around the house, I need him to constantly tell me I’m pretty so I’ll feel good about myself, I need him to listen to me and talk to me, blah, blah, blah). These are legitimate needs but they shouldn’t be used as excuses to punish your man and withdraw from him. People (men and women) need to be adults and deal with the issues in a healthy and productive way. This is not a communication style Mars/Venus issue – it is a being an adult issue. No one should want a tit for tat relationship: If you make me pay (which you have by withdrawing sexually) for everything I've done wrong, then you've stated definitively that the way relationships should work is that people make others pay for their failures. No double standards.
> 
> The sexual health of a relationship is the primary responsibility of both the man and the woman. A big part of what bothers a lot of men (sorry for generalizing) over time is the sense that their wife/GF is getting one over on them and that she has access to all of this secret information that he can never have. For relationship advice, I frequently see the implication that if the marriage/relationship has problems – especially sexual problems – then it’s the man’s fault and only he can fix it. He needs to step up and be a MAN! Be more Dominant. Initiate more, be more aggressive, make more money etc. Or he's supposed to become Mr. Emotional Transparency and a surrogate female BFF so she never feels unfulfilled again and gets the Best. Marriage/Relationship. Ever., and thus feel sexually attracted to him because she now feels happy, healthy, whole and amorous with *that* kind of marriage/relationship. In essence this comes down to “look at how much happier we are now that you do everything I want because you are afraid that I will withdraw sexually and now I’m willing to have sex with you and maybe initiate it”!!
> 
> This is one of the major issues I have with most relationship rescue philosophies. They imply that the man must clean up all of his crap, every mean thing he ever said, every insensitive thing he ever did and convert himself into the perfect Robo man in a way that precisely fits his wife's taste...and her job is… well… nothing. And then she might feel like being sexually intimate with him and MIGHT even initiate it once in a while. Just like women find it sexually attractive for a man to initiate sex and be the aggressor, many men find it just as attractive when a woman shows definitive interest, initiates it and is the aggressor – this is why so many men get caught up in affairs as their affair partners are usually way more aggressive about sex than their mates (I am in no way justifying or condoning affairs by anyone). Men don’t’ want to have sex with women who act like shy little school girls - that's gross actually. And by initiating it I don’t mean just wearing something different or nothing at all so that he gets the hint. I mean truly taking the initiative *frequently* to show your man that you have that animalistic, lustful, carnal desire for him and you plan to tear him apart. That also means being very active during your lovemaking – let him know you like what he’s doing, initiate position changes… Let yourselves go physically and emotionally during sex – trust me he WILL NOT JUDGE you.


I love this post. :smthumbup::iagree:


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## Enchantment

Hi Mr Wolf ~

Congratulations on your upcoming nuptials. 

I think one of the key phrases you used was 'emotionally healthy'. I think that we see a lot of problems on TAM and there is often one, the other, or both spouses that are not as emotionally healthy - as 'grown up', if you will - as they could or should be. Problems are often not addressed as they occur and are swept under the rug, where resentments and all sorts of other ugly things can start to grow and breed and eventually poison the relationship.

I haven't noticed so much that men are told that it's always all their fault. I HAVE noticed that the majority of sexless posts come from men and a lesser number from women who are in sexless marriages with LD men. The only advice that can be given is directly to the original poster - and it usually is of the flavor to 'sharpen yourself up and step up to the plate handling your own issues and holding your spouse accountable for theirs', whether man or woman.

I know as a wife who has a lower drive for sex - or maybe I should say a different kind of drive, response, and viewpoint on sex than my spouse does - it can make marriage a challenge. It takes effort and teamwork on both of our parts to make our marriage work and to see that both of us are fulfilled and happy. I think the most important thing in a situation like this - all too common for sure - is that you are both committed to each other and the relationship. The willingness of each partner to see to the needs and desires of their spouse, and to not rug-sweep issues, will give you a view into how committed and emotionally healthy they truly are.

Best wishes.


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## deejov

I can understand. I did read MMSL.. it's helpful for women as well.
The one imortant aspect that was mentioned that made sense to me (the sexless partner) was this;

you are the only one that can fix the problem. She can’t, through an act of willpower, make herself want to have sex with you. Pay attention to the difference here, it’s critical you understand this. She can make herself have sex with you, she just can’t make herself want to have sex with you.

I think it's really about finding the inner sex goddess and showing her it's okay to let it out. 

And by the way... when women cut off men for not meeting their needs... if that's cruel and unacceptable... why is the advice to then stop meeting the wife's needs? Isn't that tit for tat?

I know I know... she did it first, and you maybe feel like you have no other option, but I sometimes feel the 180 is used in this manner as opposed to being a preparation for divorce.


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## CWM0842

Nice rant. Pretty accurate and would be a good tie-in the feminism thread.


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## LovesHerMan

I agree with Enchantment's point that because most of the people complaining about sexless marriages here are men, the only advice that can be given is for them to change the dynamic in their relationship. We don't have the wife's point of view, so we cannot give her any advice. You can only change yourself.

The other point that I would make is that many women do not understand the male sex drive. They do not realize that it is not only physical, but an emotional connection that the man makes with his wife during sex. It is up to the husband to communicate this fact to his wife.


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## mr.miketastic

deejov said:


> I can understand. I did read MMSL.. it's helpful for women as well.
> The one imortant aspect that was mentioned that made sense to me (the sexless partner) was this;
> 
> you are the only one that can fix the problem. She can’t, through an act of willpower, make herself want to have sex with you. Pay attention to the difference here, it’s critical you understand this. She can make herself have sex with you, she just can’t make herself want to have sex with you.
> 
> I think it's really about finding the inner sex goddess and showing her it's okay to let it out.
> 
> And by the way... when women cut off men for not meeting their needs... if that's cruel and unacceptable... why is the advice to then stop meeting the wife's needs? Isn't that tit for tat?
> 
> I know I know... she did it first, and you maybe feel like you have no other option, but I sometimes feel the 180 is used in this manner as opposed to being a preparation for divorce.


Let me try to answer from experience. Been more or less cut off for years now. I had to pry things out of her, and I would improve. I jumped every hurdle and worked my a$$ off to meet her needs. Mild improvement for about a week. 
After years one tends to just say eff it and quit trying. Also, being told to guess what she wants without any further illumination is also a **** move.


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## deejov

Mr. Mike
After years of this behavior.... I can understand WHY you would give up. What I don't understand is why it goes on for years. That is 50% of the sexless partner's burden. While I say I dont understand... I do have empathy, and I'm not judging.

You feel like you have no other option. So are you still married, and if so, why?


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## Halien

Its an interesting discussion of the problem, but just like many of the threads regarding this subject, I have to ask what good does it do? How do these arguments practically fix the problem?

I'm not being sarcastic. I've seen quite a few threads where it seems as if the unspoken root cause of the problem is that the wife does not participate in a healthy sex life. So, she should fix it by having more sex. By initiating said sex more often, and being receptive to it. But, unfortunately, she has to be aroused for these wonderful things to happen. Can't guilt her into being aroused. Can't persuade her to believe that its only fair for her to want sex, and this will make her aroused. Can't really convince her that being a shy little school girl is so pathetic that she should spontaneously want to become aroused more often.

Really, western culture seems to treat a man and woman's sexuality as if it is some external object that can be shaped by human will, or standards of decorum. We try to push sexuality into an object that can be awakened by applying a few simple ingredients. I'd argue that sexuality is really a part of us. Think of how silly it would sound to tell a red skinned woman that she needs to be white skinned more often. She should be white skinned because that is what she agreed to when she married. 

Like AFEH's marriage, there has never been any denying sex or asking for sex in my 25 year marriage. I probably just stumbled into blind luck with a woman who tended to deny her sexuality before we met, but felt sorry for me or something. Really, though, there is an independence of character that I've noticed in AFEH that probably has a lot to do with it. Not at all suggesting that the people who have this problem are the cause of it, but only we can reshape a shared vision going forward. In reading many of the situations on this site, my wife and I were different than some in stressing an approach to marriage that leans toward the side of 100% unity, and 0% independence when it comes to our vision of the future state of the marriage. I gave up things that made her feel vulnerable, and she gave up things that made it feel like I was competing with others for her attention. Its all about deconstructing modern paradigms to understand what really gets in the way of real intimacy.


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## AFEH

mr.miketastic said:


> Let me try to answer from experience. Been more or less cut off for years now. I had to pry things out of her, and I would improve. I jumped every hurdle and worked my a$$ off to meet her needs. Mild improvement for about a week.
> After years one tends to just say eff it and quit trying. Also, being told to guess what she wants without any further illumination is also a **** move.


How much respect would you have for a person who jumped every hurdle you put in front of them? Would you have sex with a person you didn’t respect? Or more to the point, would your wife have sex with a man she doesn’t respect?

Don’t you think you lost your wife’s respect for you by jumping over those hurdles she set you?


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## AFEH

I got as much sex as I ever wanted. To actually verbalise the words “Can we have sex?” or something similar I never did that. For me that would be some sort of grovelling and to get a no would have been very demeaning.


I did offer to pay for it though on a few occasions as a bit of a tease, got a great response and we worked out a deal.


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## Mr Wolf

How can any person seeking help on this issue know what to change about themselves if their mate does not/will not explore the issue and communicate what the issue is? I find that to be the most common problem on both side of the gender divide.

My point is that both people have a responsibility in the issue. For example, to simply tell the man to fix what you can about yourself and make yourself more appealing, be a man, don't lose her respect, etc. doesn't help if the issues is a hormonal issue with his wife (which she hasn't bothered to share or even explore) and the real fix is a slight change in her meds. Likewise, that advice doesn't help if he is doing something that makes her feel vulnerable and he doesn't kow it.


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## LovesHerMan

That is indeed the weakness of offering advice on an anonymous forum. We cannot know what is going on from the other spouse's point of view. The OP has to scroll through the opinions and choose what is relevant to his/her situation. Sometimes it takes lots of questions to elicit the true situation from the OP.


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## mr.miketastic

Mike's been done jumping for a bit. Actually, it's starting to turn into me asking for the hoops and jumps to be undertaken...But you know what? I don't want to. I don't want to be that person who can't let go, and make turnabout "fair play" I will forgive (myself mostly) and move on


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## shy_guy

Mr Wolf said:


> Just like women find it sexually attractive for a man to initiate sex and be the aggressor, many men find it just as attractive when a woman shows definitive interest, initiates it and is the aggressor ... Men don’t’ want to have sex with women who act like shy little school girls - that's gross actually. And by initiating it I don’t mean just wearing something different or nothing at all so that he gets the hint. I mean truly taking the initiative *frequently* to show your man that you have that animalistic, lustful, carnal desire for him and you plan to tear him apart. That also means being very active during your lovemaking – let him know you like what he’s doing, initiate position changes… Let yourselves go physically and emotionally during sex – trust me he WILL NOT JUDGE you.


That part is pure poetry. I think you just wrote from my heart. Yes, wear me out, tear me apart. I'll take my turns and take the initiative as expected - that's nice for me as well - but when she just absolutely jumps my bones that is a thrill the likes of which I get noplace else on earth - don't even know anything else to compare it to. I'm talking about getting tingles from the top of my head to the tips of my toes, and from skin all the way to the bones. I can understand that BOTH should take turns initiating it.

Oh my gosh, I have a good wife and a good life! (That's actually true in every aspect of our marriage, but sexually, YES! I love it when the tiger lady shows up!!!)


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## Tall Average Guy

Mr Wolf said:


> How can any person seeking help on this issue know what to change about themselves if their mate does not/will not explore the issue and communicate what the issue is? I find that to be the most common problem on both side of the gender divide.
> 
> My point is that both people have a responsibility in the issue. For example, to simply tell the man to fix what you can about yourself and make yourself more appealing, be a man, don't lose her respect, etc. doesn't help if the issues is a hormonal issue with his wife (which she hasn't bothered to share or even explore) and the real fix is a slight change in her meds. Likewise, that advice doesn't help if he is doing something that makes her feel vulnerable and he doesn't kow it.


But there is nothing *you *can do in that situation. It is something your wife needs to do. You can't force her to do anything she does not want to do. After everything is said and done, you can only change and control you.

If your wife is not joining you on this journey, then you have some hard decisions. One is to tell her this in unexceptable and you would like her to see a doctor to work on this together. You may also want to offer marriage counseling. But if she refuses, you can't make her do it. You can only enforce your boundaires. If she refuses, you have to decide how important it is, and whether you can stay married to her under those circumstances.


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## Kobo

It's funny how a man loses his "hunter" mentallity after a few years in captivity. My short advice to men is to lose the expectation of initiation by your wife, never "ask" for sex, and remember that staying in a sexless marriage is a choice.


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## Mr Wolf

> But there is nothing you can do in that situation. It is something your wife needs to do. You can't force her to do anything she does not want to do. After everything is said and done, you can only change and control you.
> 
> If your wife is not joining you on this journey, then you have some hard decisions. One is to tell her this in unexceptable and you would like her to see a doctor to work on this together. You may also want to offer marriage counseling. But if she refuses, you can't make her do it. You can only enforce your boundaires. If she refuses, you have to decide how important it is, and whether you can stay married to her under those circumstances.


This is exactly my point! There is nothing the man can do alone and giving men the advice of "you can only change you"as a way of fixing the situation, while technically correct, is nonsensical. I don't think anyone would tell a woman with a husband that refuses to work and support his familty to "work on making yourself a better woman, do more stuff around the house, give him more sex, meet his needs and maybe then he'll want to get a job." This is typically the type of advice men get which implies a cause and effect relationship between him changing his behavior and an increase in frequency of sex. 

She has to be an adult and participate in solving the problem. And if she can't or won't then you are right -- there are some very hard choices that have to be made. 

The bottom line is that people have to value themselves enough to leave a bad situation if the other person is unwilling to work on the issues together. I have two dealbreaker issues for my upcoming marriage that we have discussed: Infidelity and lack of sex that is not due to hormonal/aging issues. Her dealbreakers are: Infidelity, financial irresponsibility and lack of emotional closeness.


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## shy_guy

Kobo said:


> It's funny how a man loses his "hunter" mentallity after a few years in captivity. My short advice to men is to lose the expectation of initiation by your wife, never "ask" for sex, and remember that staying in a sexless marriage is a choice.


That advice is too generalized. Men and women are different. Some women are very willing to initiate. Some women respond well to being asked. Some women may not respond well to being jumped, or may respond well sometimes and not others. You have to know your partner, and your partner has to know you, and they have to be willing to work together. 

My wife likes to have me initiate, and she knows I like for her to initiate sometimes. I initiate just like she has told me at times she likes it. Sometimes, she does absolutely jump my bones like I said. Always, she is a participant and not just a passive recipient. I'm not going to lose my expectation of her initiating sometimes because I like it, and she is willing to do that.


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## Runs like Dog

Well that's the perfect fairy tale of ineffable feminine sexuality, no? It's complex it's unintelligible and you, as the man have taken on a massive job that I can describe as taking a giant cone and holding it upright on its point, forever. Whatever you do don't stop holding that cone because as soon as you do the cone falls over and it's your fault because heaven knows, little miss muffet can't be expected to do anything, can she? 

It's like they were all sat down by their mothers and told "Keep them wanting more, reject them once in a while" and it spun around in their Disney shaped brains and came out as "No No No No No No No forever No". And back of beyond in a corner of that Disney shaped brain they're happy with that because....well, who cares why.


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## Kobo

shy_guy said:


> That advice is too generalized. Men and women are different. Some women are very willing to initiate. Some women respond well to being asked. Some women may not respond well to being jumped, or may respond well sometimes and not others. You have to know your partner, and your partner has to know you, and they have to be willing to work together.
> 
> My wife likes to have me initiate, and she knows I like for her to initiate sometimes. I initiate just like she has told me at times she likes it. Sometimes, she does absolutely jump my bones like I said. Always, she is a participant and not just a passive recipient. I'm not going to lose my expectation of her initiating sometimes because I like it, and she is willing to do that.


I didn't say women don't initiate. I said men should lose the expectation that she will. The majority of men don't have that expectation while dating but come 5 years in the marriage they wonder "Why doesn't she initiate? She must not love me/find me attractive". Then he's pouting and then she really loses her attraction to him.


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## shy_guy

Kobo said:


> I didn't say women don't initiate. I said men should lose the expectation that she will. The majority of men don't have that expectation while dating but come 5 years in the marriage they wonder "Why doesn't she initiate? She must not love me/find me attractive". Then he's pouting and then she really loses her attraction to him.


What I would say here is what I say all over the board: OPEN YOUR MOUTH AND LET HER KNOW!!! The lack of direct, open communication is what astounds me so often on this board. And just like women complain about us: Sometimes you have to tell her more than once. Sometimes, the woman may not really even know that the man wanted that. I've been reading some cases on this board where bright, and willing wives didn't actually figure out their husbands wanted them to initiate until maybe 20 years after they got married.


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## Tall Average Guy

Mr Wolf said:


> This is exactly my point! There is nothing the man can do alone and giving men the advice of "you can only change you"as a way of fixing the situation, while technically correct, is nonsensical. I don't think anyone would tell a woman with a husband that refuses to work and support his familty to "work on making yourself a better woman, do more stuff around the house, give him more sex, meet his needs and maybe then he'll want to get a job." This is typically the type of advice men get which implies a cause and effect relationship between him changing his behavior and an increase in frequency of sex.
> 
> She has to be an adult and participate in solving the problem. And if she can't or won't then you are right -- there are some very hard choices that have to be made.
> 
> The bottom line is that people have to value themselves enough to leave a bad situation if the other person is unwilling to work on the issues together. I have two dealbreaker issues for my upcoming marriage that we have discussed: Infidelity and lack of sex that is not due to hormonal/aging issues. Her dealbreakers are: Infidelity, financial irresponsibility and lack of emotional closeness.


Just because it takes two does not make it non-sensical to advise a poster on the things that they can do that might improve the situation. Your wife needs to be an adult, but so do you. You very likely need to improve things (lord knows I did when I first started to really think about these issues). Yes, she does as well, but if you are not willing to lead and start the process, what makes you think she will do it on her own?

You can sit back and refuse to work on yourself because she has not taken any steps to address the issue. Of course, there is a real danger that she does the same thing and the cycle continues.

Alternatively, you can be a man and a leader and take the first step. Show your wife that you are willing to lead by action, not just words, to try for a better marriage. Doing this on your part may spur your wife to take action or listen to your request. Some one needs to take that first step.


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## AFEH

What I heard Mr. Wolf say is that he’s been there, done that, got the medals and all that. He probably could have written the books.

I also heard him say that in some cases, with some wives every effort is simply in vain. In that some wives don’t even want to be on the dance floor, let alone dance.


He must be in a totally different world now having a new partner like he does. Long may the dancing continue!


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## Deejo

Funny how time and experience can change perspective.

I no longer presume that a man that is 'working on himself' will gain the outcome of a more amorous wife.

What I belief is that by working on himself, he will get to the place where he starts seeing life WITHOUT his wife ... if despite shoring up his boundaries and increasing his emotional IQ, he still has a partner that has no interest in actually being a partner.

If he chooses to stay, he has done so out of self-awareness, not because he hopes 'it will get better'.

Being your own man means you get to decide what premium you put on sex ... and how ANY partner responds in that arena.


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## EleGirl

Mello_Yellow said:


> Yep, you are the only one!


Hardly


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## EleGirl

lovesherman said:


> I agree with Enchantment's point that because most of the people complaining about sexless marriages here are men, the only advice that can be given is for them to change the dynamic in their relationship. We don't have the wife's point of view, so we cannot give her any advice. You can only change yourself.
> 
> The other point that I would make is that many women do not understand the male sex drive. They do not realize that it is not only physical, but an emotional connection that the man makes with his wife during sex. It is up to the husband to communicate this fact to his wife.


I agree with both of your points here....

The advice here is given to the person who is here posting and looking for advice. So they are the ones who are told to work on themself.. .they can only change themself.

Then if they follow through and nothing changes with their spouse for the better, at least they are a better person and will take this new found knowledge/experience into their next relationship.

The second point that many women do not understand that sex is how a man expresses and obtains the emotional connection is right on. 

But it's goes the other way as well. Most men do not understand the female sex drive. That a woman's sex drive is dependent on her fellings of emotional intimacy with her partner. If she does not feel emotionaly intimate she will not have a desire to have sex with the partner.

Shoot most people do not understand the basis of their own sex drive much less that of their partner.


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## EleGirl

mr.miketastic said:


> Let me try to answer from experience. Been more or less cut off for years now. I had to pry things out of her, and I would improve. I jumped every hurdle and worked my a$$ off to meet her needs. Mild improvement for about a week.
> After years one tends to just say eff it and quit trying. Also, being told to guess what she wants without any further illumination is also a **** move.


The fact that your wife will not tell you what is going on with her is all about her. 

It's not all about all women. 

Yes there are women who will not open up and work on their marriage. There are just as many men who will not do this.


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## Toffer

lovesherman, again I am wonder why "men, the only advice that can be given is for them to change the dynamic in their relationship"?

Shouldn't the women also look at an alternate dynamic on their part? Isn't marriage supposed to be a partnership? After the husband communicates his need for more intimacy and the wife communicates what she needs to become intimate, shouldn't both parties work to meet somewhere in the middle?


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## EleGirl

Deejo said:


> Funny how time and experience can change perspective.
> 
> I no longer presume that a man that is 'working on himself' will gain the outcome of a more amorous wife.
> 
> What I belief is that by working on himself, he will get to the place where he starts seeing life WITHOUT his wife ... if despite shoring up his boundaries and increasing his emotional IQ, he still has a partner that has no interest in actually being a partner.
> 
> If he chooses to stay, he has done so out of self-awareness, not because he hopes 'it will get better'.
> 
> Being your own man means you get to decide what premium you put on sex ... and how ANY partner responds in that arena.


I agree with you that this is often the case... that the one spouse who wants things to change and thus changes themself cannot get the other to join them in this growth and marriage revitalization.

It's the same for both men and women. No matter the gender of the person here complaining of marital problems, more times than not the complaint is that their spouse will not join them in improving the marriage.

It's sad that a spouse would take the stance of not working to improve things


----------



## EleGirl

Toffer said:


> lovesherman, again I am wonder why "men, the only advice that can be given is for them to change the dynamic in their relationship"?
> 
> Shouldn't the women also look at an alternate dynamic on their part? Isn't marriage supposed to be a partnership? After the husband communicates his need for more intimacy and the wife communicates what she needs to become intimate, shouldn't both parties work to meet somewhere in the middle?


When the poster is a woman, she is told the same thing.. she can only change herself. This advice is not reserved for men.

Of course the spouse (male or female) should want to work on the marriage but many of the spouses of people who come here for support will not work on the marriage.... that's why the posting spouse is here.

I'm a woman. My husband refuses to do anything to fix our marriage. It is he who is withholding sex, not me. I never turned him down when we had a sex life. Over time I became the only one to initiate sex for months on end.

And yes I have been very clear with him about what I need and about what I think or marital problems are. He could care less.

Why this is all being made to sound like only husbands are told to work on themself and women are left off the hook I have no clue.


----------



## Kobo

shy_guy said:


> What I would say here is what I say all over the board: OPEN YOUR MOUTH AND LET HER KNOW!!! The lack of direct, open communication is what astounds me so often on this board. And just like women complain about us: Sometimes you have to tell her more than once. Sometimes, the woman may not really even know that the man wanted that. I've been reading some cases on this board where bright, and willing wives didn't actually figure out their husbands wanted them to initiate until maybe 20 years after they got married.


I agree that communication is an issue. I would say in the case of a wife initiating you more than likely going up against a lot still. I feel lucky in the fact that my wife initiates. That said women have been taught that being sexual is for "bad" girls. Still more are specifically taught that a woman needs to make her man persue her. So when you say you want your wife to initiate you may be making very uncortable in what she's been taught all her life. You add that to the stress of life, work, parenting, and household management you are looking at a long time between initiations. So I have the opinion that men must lead their ladies into a passionate and sexual relationship. This doesn't mean the man must jump through hoops and conform themselves to their wives bidding.


----------



## LovesHerMan

Toffer said:


> lovesherman, again I am wonder why "men, the only advice that can be given is for them to change the dynamic in their relationship"?
> 
> Shouldn't the women also look at an alternate dynamic on their part? Isn't marriage supposed to be a partnership? After the husband communicates his need for more intimacy and the wife communicates what she needs to become intimate, shouldn't both parties work to meet somewhere in the middle?


Yes, that is how it "should" work, but if a spouse posts a thread here, it is likely that his/her partner is content with the way things are in the marriage. How do you get your partner to see that you are unhappy? The best way I know is to communicate and try to change the relationship dynamic.


----------



## Toffer

Mr Wolf - Your spot on with your comment "There is nothing the man can do alone and giving men the advice of "you can only change you"as a way of fixing the situation, while technically correct, is nonsensical. I don't think anyone would tell a woman with a husband that refuses to work and support his familty to "work on making yourself a better woman, do more stuff around the house, give him more sex, meet his needs and maybe then he'll want to get a job." This is typically the type of advice men get which implies a cause and effect relationship between him changing his behavior and an increase in frequency of sex"


Kobo, it's not that I expect my wife to do something she's never done before (intiate). She did while we dated, during the engagement and after the marriage. It's just that it is now way too far in between if at all.

ShyGuy is correct about voicing what your issues are to your wife. I've done that a number of times and we've discussed with counselors. Things go great for a while and then slip back to the old ways. That's what causes the frustrations!

Deejo is right when he said "What I belief is that by working on himself, he will get to the place where he starts seeing life WITHOUT his wife ... if despite shoring up his boundaries and increasing his emotional IQ, he still has a partner that has no interest in actually being a partner" You may have a great marriage in every respect except the sex and you may actually fear improving too much because you could see yourself moving away from your spouse and down the road with someone else!

Ellegirl, I understand this "Most men do not understand the female sex drive. That a woman's sex drive is dependent on her fellings of emotional intimacy with her partner. If she does not feel emotionaly intimate she will not have a desire to have sex with the partner" in relation to my wife. The issue I have is trying to figure out how to make her feel emotionally intimate! Even asking is a dead end result! There in lies my frustration


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## joshbjoshb

Mr Wolf said:


> .


One great post, except you are in the wrong place. You should preach to the ladies... someone to get up and tell them in their face that they have MORE TO LOOSE than the husbands when they withdrew sexually..


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## The Chimp

Deejo said:


> Funny how time and experience can change perspective.
> 
> I no longer presume that a man that is 'working on himself' will gain the outcome of a more amorous wife.
> 
> What I belief is that by working on himself, he will get to the place where he starts seeing life WITHOUT his wife ... if despite shoring up his boundaries and increasing his emotional IQ, he still has a partner that has no interest in actually being a partner.
> 
> If he chooses to stay, he has done so out of self-awareness, not because he hopes 'it will get better'.
> 
> Being your own man means you get to decide what premium you put on sex ... and how ANY partner responds in that arena.


I think this is one of the smartest things I have read. I worked on myself to improve myself, hoping that my wife would like a better me and show that liking by having more sex.

What I am learning is that no matter how better I get, she does not think that sex is important to a marriage.

Her view of the world will not change because of how I improve my self. 

I am putting a higher premium on my kids time than on sex, but I can feel it is my choice not what she has decided for me.


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## deejov

And your kids and yourself WIN WIN WIN.
chimp, I give you credit for making an effort to be a better man and not being bitter about it. Life doesn't always go the way you want... sometimes you have to deal with what you have. I think that is the "lesson" that can be taken from this. Whether it's work, your spouse, your kids, a tragedy, you can only control how you react to it. Her loss, not yours.


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## Mr Wolf

I’m not here to preach to anyone but simply to share my perspective. 

I was married for 15 years and prior to the marriage my XW was a sexual animal (we were together for five years). As soon as we got married that all stopped. Cold! Literally the next day. I spent a huge amount of time trying to discover what was going on and see how I could change the dynamic of our marriage. She refused to talk and would sit and stare at me with a blank look when I would try to discuss our relationship. She refused to go to counseling. I would ask “What can I do or change about myself to make our relationship better?” and she would not respond. She accused me of all sorts of things to cover her guilty conscience. What I didn’t know then is that she was cheating on me while we were dating and continued after we were married. Through her own words she didn’t want to marry me but felt trapped since I was a nice guy who could earn a good living and everyone expected us to get married. During our divorce she admitted that (1) she intentionally concealed how she felt about me, (2) she intentionally concealed who she really was and (3) that she intentionally withdrew emotionally and sexually. Get this, once while we were married she told me she intentionally withheld sex because she thought it would make the times we had sex much better. For a few years after our divorce, my xW pursued me vigorously trying to get me back. During that time period she acknowledged every single conversation we had about our relationship, was open about both of our roles in the marriage and tried to do, without my prompting or receptivity, all of the things I had suggested during our marriage. By that time she disgusted me and I would have nothing to do with her. She was the way she was during the marriage because she didn’t think I would leave. Once she say how desirable I was/am to others it killed her (I hear this from her friends who would ask me to get back together with her). 

I’m now in a very healthy relationship. We have had our issues sexually BUT we discussed them as adults and worked to find solutions. During those periods we’ve built an extreme amount of trust with each other around this issue and it has made things significantly better. My STBW is very aware of what is going on with her body and emotions and is very willing to share. And she is willing to share when something is going on but she doesn’t quite know what it is. I respect what she tells me and react appropriately – sometimes that means no sex for a while. She also understands my need for physical affection (including sex) and periodic affirmation/compliments. 

All of this, together with my experiences in the relationships I had following my divorce, showed me that in a lot of cases (not all) women/people act (or fail to act) intentionally. I’ve had plenty of women use sex as a weapon and then deny it. At the first sign of this I’m out because that is an extreme case of emotional immaturity and abuse. People usually know there are problems but choose to ignore them. While I agree that relationships need effort to thrive, I disagree that any one partner can or should do it alone when the other partner shows no desire or effort. People are not stupid and they know what they are doing or not doing. 

I could buy the advice of “you need to work on yourself” if it is coupled with “and if your partner refuses to address the issue or communicate with you about it then you have a choice of whether to stay or leave.” Saying that “you need to work on yourself and change your behavior” by itself implies that it is solely the man’s responsibility and he somehow can magically change his wife or the relationship dynamic by doing working on himself. I don’t think that is what anyone here intends but that is how it comes across.


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## Mr Wolf

Another thing I learned is that some women tend to desire what they can’t have. When I was dating I was very clear and upfront that I was “dating” and would not be exclusive with anyone. The fact that I wouldn’t commit and could care less if they wanted to move on seemed to drive the ones I dated insane and would prompt them to be very aggressive and adventurous sexually. That wasn’t my intent – it’s just where I was at the time. There were those that would try to cut off sex to spur a reaction/commitment from me but once they saw I could care less they went right back to being aggressive sexually. Ultimately, I think some women thrive on the challenge and once the man commits and begins to be a good husband (this doesn’t mean he’s being less of a man or an Alpha) they lose respect for him and want to discard him. I’ve made it clear that I want to be in a happy, healthy, thriving marriage with my STBW and will work my a#* off to make that happen. She has seen me demonstrate that in my actions. BUT I’ve also made it clear and she knows that I can and will leave and call it quits if there is no reciprocity and she isn’t putting forth an effort to make it good and work on our issues. Life is too short to tilt at windmills.


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## EleGirl

Toffer said:


> Mr Wolf - Your spot on with your comment "There is nothing the man can do alone and giving men the advice of "you can only change you" as a way of fixing the situation, while technically correct, is nonsensical. I don't think anyone would tell a woman with a husband that refuses to work and support his familty to "work on making yourself a better woman, do more stuff around the house, give him more sex, meet his needs and maybe then he'll want to get a job." This is typically the type of advice men get which implies a cause and effect relationship between him changing his behavior and an increase in frequency of sex"


I get what you are saying. Now realize this is coming from a woman whose husband he a serial cheater, whose husband refuses to engage in sex with his wife (me) and whose husband refused to get a job for many years now making me the sole bread winner.

There is a difference between a man (or anyone) working to support themselves and their family. It does not take emotional intimacy at home so that a person can work a job. Work is just something we humans do. In our current culture we have to do it to even work/live because nothing is free.

On the other hand a woman has to have emotional intimacy to want to have sex. She can have sex as a duty but she will only want it if she feels a strong emotional intimacy with her partner. She cannot help this . It’s it how women are wired.

“Women need a reason to have sex; men need a place.” (Simplistic but makes the point.)



Toffer said:


> Kobo, it's not that I expect my wife to do something she's never done before (intiate). She did while we dated, during the engagement and after the marriage. It's just that it is now way too far in between if at all.
> ShyGuy is correct about voicing what your issues are to your wife. I've done that a number of times and we've discussed with counselors. Things go great for a while and then slip back to the old ways. That's what causes the frustrations!


When a problem is so deep seated in a relationship this back sliding is so common that it’s predictable and madding. 



Toffer said:


> Ellegirl, I understand this "Most men do not understand the female sex drive. That a woman's sex drive is dependent on her fellings of emotional intimacy with her partner. If she does not feel emotionaly intimate she will not have a desire to have sex with the partner" in relation to my wife. The issue I have is trying to figure out how to make her feel emotionally intimate! Even asking is a dead end result! There in lies my frustration


I’m with you on this. The problem is not just in the area of women and sex. I can say that the same thing is a problem with my husband. All he says when I ask him is that he would like things to be better but all in all he’s content. What? We have no relationship, he sits and play s computer games every waking hour of the day and refuses to find a job.. and he’s content? Get real. 

I can think of some things that could be going on with a person who will not communicate and explore what is causing the problem in the marriage.
1)	They are actually content. Their spouse’s unhappiness does not register with them. They don’t want to make changes because it would ruin what is for them a good (or good enough) thing.

2)	They are not content but do not want to rock the boat. They fear change for change, any change. Better the devil they know then a new one.

3)	They enjoy the suffering they are causing their spouse.. .it’s a form of revenge for who knows what. It’s very passive aggressive but they are winning as long as their spouse Is unhappy and keeps begging/trying to get them to ‘fix’ something. The power of this game is more important to them than having a good marriage or the happiness of their spouse.

4)	They are completely clueless. They would like to change but don’t know how to do it in a meaningful way that lasts. They also do not know what they want… they cannot tell their spouse something as clear as “I need for you to spend 2 hours a day with me just the two of us being close and having fun, snuggling and talking. And then I need for us to have a weekly date.”

I really like the book “His Needs, Her Needs” because it gives a way to talk about needs. Often people just do not know what they need or how to express it. They can often feel that it’s wrong to ‘demand’ that their spouse do such and such. I get it now… we (husband and wife) have to know what we want/need and state it very clearly.

Do you take your wife out to a weekly date? Will she go if you ask her?


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## Halien

Kobo said:


> I agree that communication is an issue. I would say in the case of a wife initiating you more than likely going up against a lot still. I feel lucky in the fact that my wife initiates. That said women have been taught that being sexual is for "bad" girls. Still more are specifically taught that a woman needs to make her man persue her. So when you say you want your wife to initiate you may be making very uncortable in what she's been taught all her life. You add that to the stress of life, work, parenting, and household management you are looking at a long time between initiations. So I have the opinion that men must lead their ladies into a passionate and sexual relationship. This doesn't mean the man must jump through hoops and conform themselves to their wives bidding.


Kobo,

I really get what you are saying. I do think that communication is a real problem, but really think it is worthwhile to take a step back and look at what that might accomplish -- "Wife, I need more physical intimacy to stay connected", for example. We could think of a hundred ways to word this in order to describe a man's sexuality. 

But I think that there is a more subtle thing missing. Deejo is spot on, in my opinion, about the need for improving yourself without making assumptions of what it would do for the wife. Sometimes, it appears that there is a change in how men approach sex with our wife as the relationship matures.

Try to be fair to the women. Most of us try to initially win our wives by putting our best foot forward in being bold and confident. We pursue her. Her openness to sex is treated as a gift. An incredible gift. In modern times, people try to downplay the elevation of a woman, even on both sides, but when it exists it is an incredible dynamic.

Please try to understand that I'm not talking about right or wrong, but taking about how the dynamics can change after marriage. After marriage, we can talk about the relative fairness of it all, but there is a shift in focus when the balance changes to where the discussion is about our expectation that the woman takes equal responsibility for initiating. My wife, and I would think a fair percentage of others, was wise enough to see that she should try to build me up just as much as I did for her. But what happens when this dynamic shift occurs with a woman, where she is not always more or less being pursued, and also notices that some of her more difficult to describe needs are also being unmet? I'd argue that it is very easy for a woman to begin to feel that she is now taken for granted. Really, how many people are mature enough to climb their way out of this in their twenties? And if it isn't fixed, add more frustration vocalized by the man and she will find it even harder to climb out of this.

Maybe I'm just too practical, but I was okay with the notion that I needed to be a strong initiator primarily because it is one of the only sure ways that she will respond. At the deepest level of my sexuality, I'm an agressive initiator. I respond to seeing her give in to the moment. At the deepest level of my wife's sexuality, my wife is a generous lover. She responds to seeing that fire in me, and being taken by it. When the foundation is secure, and has been secure, some of the roles that others describe, where she is the initiator, come natural to her. I'd suggest that many men who post here regarding a poor sex life really have to take it down to that foundation level of intimacy, to the core drivers of sexuality. That isn't the time to ask, "wanna' do it?", or ask her why she isn't initiating enough. At the same time, if she is past the point of responding at this level, then one of the two of them have to get the courage to call a spade a spade.

Communication is essential, but if people don't understand each other's core sexuality, which can only be learned by doing it, it still is very limited in what it can fix. I think we have to get out of the habit of thinking about it in generalities, like "women like this", or "women need xxx to feel intimate." A woman's sexuality (and man's) is as unique as her physical identity. Something will potentially elicit a sexual response unless she has cut off the possiblity or is medically unable. In cases like this, those who respond to posts have no other choice than to offer advice on what might affect her.


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## SimplyAmorous

Mr Wolf said:


> Just like women find it sexually attractive for a man to initiate sex and be the aggressor, many men find it just as attractive when a woman shows definitive interest, initiates it and is the aggressor – this is why so many men get caught up in affairs as their affair partners are usually way more aggressive about sex than their mates (I am in no way justifying or condoning affairs by anyone). Men don’t’ want to have sex with women who act like shy little school girls - that's gross actually. And by initiating it I don’t mean just wearing something different or nothing at all so that he gets the hint. I mean truly taking the initiative *frequently* to show your man that you have that animalistic, lustful, carnal desire for him and you plan to tear him apart. That also means being very active during your lovemaking – let him know you like what he’s doing, initiate position changes… Let yourselves go physically and emotionally during sex – trust me he WILL NOT JUDGE you.


I love this ....Couldn't agree with you more. My husband was never the dominate aggressive type... 

More wives need to take the bull by the horns, shake it up a little. I could have easily started to blame my husband for being too boring, too passive, too whatever.... but I didn't go there .... I took intiative, educated myself and spiced the hell out of our sex life (of course it helped to have a jump in my drive)  Though I do have regrets, I was that prudish school girl at one time, more like a Little house on the Praire woman for most of our marraige....what a waste. We both missed out. 




shy_guy said:


> What I would say here is what I say all over the board: OPEN YOUR MOUTH AND LET HER KNOW!!! The lack of direct, open communication is what astounds me so often on this board. And just like women complain about us: Sometimes you have to tell her more than once. Sometimes, the woman may not really even know that the man wanted that. *I've been reading some cases on this board where bright, and willing wives didn't actually figure out their husbands wanted them to initiate until maybe 20 years after they got married*.


Shy_Guy... you have to be talking about us. 

Though this is the RARER situation by far, most men raise a little hell about it , cause some fights....and what do the majority of women do......recoil, it pushes them away further. Easy for me to say but I believe I would have appreciated him being pissed off at me -over being so damn silent about his desires & needs. This side of the coin is no better at all, it caused us alot of wasted years, missing each other sexually .....and apathy. 

I guess it depends on the woman...I am not the type to run from a fight, I want to work it out, conflict is GOOD ....Open your mouth- I want that from my partner! 



> *Mr Wolf said*: What I didn’t know then is that she was cheating on me while we were dating and continued after we were married. Through her own words she didn’t want to marry me but felt trapped since I was a nice guy who could earn a good living and everyone expected us to get married. During our divorce she admitted that (1) she intentionally concealed how she felt about me, (2) she intentionally concealed who she really was and (3) that she intentionally withdrew emotionally and sexually. Get this, once while we were married she told me she intentionally withheld sex because she thought it would make the times we had sex much better. For a few years after our divorce, my xW pursued me vigorously trying to get me back. During that time period she acknowledged every single conversation we had about our relationship, was open about both of our roles in the marriage and tried to do, without my prompting or receptivity, all of the things I had suggested during our marriage. By that time she disgusted me and I would have nothing to do with her.


Good for you- to have moved on from her. The foundation of that marraige was destroyed before you you even walked down the aisle. To be united with a deceiver, what a walk in hell. 

No hope for that. 



> . While I agree that relationships need effort to thrive, I disagree that any one partner can or should do it alone when the other partner shows no desire or effort.


 :iagree:

I did a thread on unconditional love - cause that too, is BS. If my partner ain't on board, the ship is going to sink and I'm looking for another boat !

.


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## sinnister

I have never agreed more with a post on the internet.

Very well stated and mirrors my views exactly. It seems like the onus is ALWAYS on the man to "change" something about their fundamental personality in order to have their wife desire them...with no regard for the fact that maybe he just doesn't need changing.


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## Catherine602

Maybe the solution for men who are unhappy with the quality of sex would be to look at the quality of what they bring to the table. Maybe also learn about real sex from reputable sources and not porn videos. 

I would not be happy with a man who regarded me as a source of sexual entertainment. My intrinsic worth does not hinge on how thrilling i can make sex for my husband. 

We are in concert with making our sexual relationship as satisfying fir each other as possible. The gymnastic sex is fun every now and then when we are both in the mood. I don't feel obliged to put on a show but I feel motivated. 

Perhaps concentration on the basics of loving, mutually satisfying sex. Get to learn your partner and what Tues her on. 

Leave off expectations and work on inspiration. If the sex is boring, consider what you are doing before pointing the finger. 

. Accept her uniqueness and don't impose artificial expectations. For all the talk about sexual connection with love for men it may not feel that way when sex is mechanical when they are being molded to fit an impossible fantasy. 

When women start expecting men to perform like porn actors this may hit home. What if the expectation was for a chiseled physique, the face of a Adonis, a large penis and ability to give them orgasms in with a few mins of trusting, how would men feel. 

Women are becoming more like men and may catch up with men on expectations of porn sex. Only it will be men how will have to fit unrealistic standards of performance.


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## Mrs. T

Mello_Yellow said:


> Yep, you are the only one!


 AFEH and Mr. T may be the only ones...


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## Mr Wolf

Catherine602 said:


> Maybe the solution for men who are unhappy with the quality of sex would be to look at the quality of what they bring to the table. Maybe also learn about real sex from reputable sources and not porn videos.
> 
> I would not be happy with a man who regarded me as a source of sexual entertainment. My intrinsic worth does not hinge on how thrilling i can make sex for my husband.
> 
> We are in concert with making our sexual relationship as satisfying fir each other as possible. The gymnastic sex is fun every now and then when we are both in the mood. I don't feel obliged to put on a show but I feel motivated.
> 
> Perhaps concentration on the basics of loving, mutually satisfying sex. Get to learn your partner and what Tues her on.
> 
> Leave off expectations and work on inspiration. If the sex is boring, consider what you are doing before pointing the finger.
> 
> . Accept her uniqueness and don't impose artificial expectations. For all the talk about sexual connection with love for men it may not feel that way when sex is mechanical when they are being molded to fit an impossible fantasy.
> 
> When women start expecting men to perform like porn actors this may hit home. What if the expectation was for a chiseled physique, the face of a Adonis, a large penis and ability to give them orgasms in with a few mins of trusting, how would men feel.
> 
> Women are becoming more like men and may catch up with men on expectations of porn sex. Only it will be men how will have to fit unrealistic standards of performance.



Wow! I think you completely misunderstand what many of the men on this and other threads are saying. I don't think any man is saying he wants porn sex (although the tear me apart porn style sex would be nice every once in a while ). What we are saying is we want meaningful connected sex where both parties are active willing participants and both parties feel loved and desired. The advice is frequently figure the woman out and change yourself to give her what she wants and things will work out. And we are simply saying that just as a man needs to understand and adapt to his woman's unique sexuality and needs, so should a woman understand and adapt to her man's unique sexuality and needs. 

Based on some of the posts I've seen of SimplyAmorous, she gets it! In fact, she should give seminars!

Also, why are a man's expectations necessarily *"Artificial"*? This is precisely the attitude and prejudgement that many men recoil from and why I think some women are closed to really listening to the concerns of their men on this issue. Not helpful.

Finally, I don't see where any man on this thread said hat a woman's body/conditions/physical appearance was a factor in the sexual intimacy


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## shy_guy

Catherine, once again you jump into a thread with both feet, completely defensive, and it becomes obvious you have not understood what you are responding to ... and I have no idea where things like "porn" are coming from to get interjected into this.

I'll respond a little bit more when I have time, but really, IMO, you need to take a deep breath, re-read, understand, put your emotions in neutral, bring down your defensiveness, and do a little introspection before jumping into threads like this. I don't know where this comes from with you. Maybe you can enlighten us a bit.


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## Enchantment

Mr Wolf said:


> Wow! I think you completely misunderstand what many of the men on this and other threads are saying. I don't think any man is saying he wants porn sex (although it would be nice every once in a while ). *What we are saying is we want meaningful connected sex where both parties are active willing participants and both parties feel loved and desired. And we are saying that just as a man needs to understand and adapt to his woman's unique sexuality and needs, so should a woman understand and adapt to her man's unique sexuality and needs*.
> 
> Based on some of the posts I've seen of SimplyAmorous, she gets it! In fact, she should give seminars!
> 
> Also, why are a man's expectations necessarily "Artificial"? This is precicely the attitude and prejudgement that many men recoil from and why I think some women are closed to really listening to the concerns of their men on this issue. Not helpful.


I think in some ways you are mostly preaching to the choir, Mr. Wolf. 

Totally agree with you on what I bolded above. If only we could get some of the wives who are the other half of the men who post here about their sexless marriage to post their side of things, then maybe some headway could be made - but not if they get preached at. Because when we do get the occasional wife who doesn't want to have sex with her husband coming here, she often gets jumped on like a piece of raw meat in a pond of piranhas, and we often don't ever see them again. 

There's usually a myriad of things that are going on in the relationship, though, that often need to be addressed and that aren't able to be seen in an anonymous online forum - sexlessness is often just a symptom of an ailing relationship paradigm.

To me the thing that seems to be a defining factor is the willingness of each partner to work toward a better relationship. If one won't participate, then the other has no other recourse but to keep up their own side of the street as best they can and decide whether it's time to move.

Best wishes.


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## Catherine602

Why do you assume I am closed to a mutually enjoyable sexual experience? 

I would no doubt recoil from men who expect me say what they like to hear when this topic comes up. So we would be even. 

If you read carefully the post by men who are connecting sexually with their wives but are still unhappy it is about their sexual expectations. 

What do they want? A she devil, shows of enthusiasm, initiating and different positions. Why? Because it brings them pleasure. Why cant they get their wives to perform? 

There is the crux. If I say you can't make her be someone she is not then I am wrong. If I ask about the basic quality of sex for her I am asking him to jump through hoops. 

If I suggests he step back expectations and work on the basics then I am favoring his wife. If I say love the person she is I don't understand the male sexual need for variety. 

If I were talking to my son and daughter (if they were old enough) I would tell them both the same thing. 

Come into a relationship with a mind to getting to know the person you are with. Allow them to be who they are from the begining. Don't impose a list of expectations. 

State your preferences and needs and be willing to adjust to a mutually satisfactory relationship. If you are not comparable you will know. 

I would tell my daughter to stay away from men who have a list of expectations as in - I won't date women who don't do some sex acts. 

They are poor risk for a LT happy relationships. I would tell my son not to reveal what his desires are for acts up front. It is easy to be manipulated. 

Rather explore with the person and see if you are compatible. Don't audition women, all you will get are good actresses who do things just to please you. 

That may sound like paradise but the largess disappears eventually. 

My sexual likes and dislikes are shaped by my personality, background and most importantly the man I married. 

I was very inhibited and my husband coaxed me out of my shell. We spoke about this recently. After reading some of the horror stories on this site I asked him about his patience and acceptance. 

He said he understood why and and he had confident that I would come out of it with his help. He did not mind taking leadership.


----------



## Catherine602

shy_guy said:


> Catherine, once again you jump into a thread with both feet, completely defensive, and it becomes obvious you have not understood what you are responding to ... and I have no idea where things like "porn" are coming from to get interjected into this.
> 
> I'll respond a little bit more when I have time, but really, IMO, you need to take a deep breath, re-read, understand, put your emotions in neutral, bring down your defensiveness, and do a little introspection before jumping into threads like this. I don't know where this comes from with you. Maybe you can enlighten us a bit.


Once again?? You're beginning to sound like the all knowing, all seeing expert on all things pertaining to women, men and relationships. 

Well teach on then.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *Catherine602 said *:If you read carefully the post by men who are connecting sexually with their wives but are still unhappy it is about their sexual expectations


 This wasn't true in my marraige -AT ALL....therefore it is not true in every case. It is also not true in the case of friends of ours. (Unlike many people here on this forum, I accually do talk about this intimate stuff with friends).... Her husband is a wonderful christian man, he just wants more sex, he puts up with her laying there like a corpse, she has no interest at all, she has told me ....even allowed him to cry in front of her, I felt the heat rising in me, I wanted to tear her apart ... After I allowed my own wonderful man to suffer ... I have zero compassion on such women. ZERO. She ought to let him go, she ought to feel compassion, something. She is nothing but selfish, the marriage is not balanced at all. 

Her husband is a good man....a damn good one, much more worthy than she is... she brags about their marraige on FB, but I know the real story ...she probably does love him, called me crying when he was sick, found out he has RA, but does she care about his needs....Hell no! If I was him, I'd leave her. I see the sadness in his eyes- when we visit *he is half the man he could be*. I blame her. He does everything for her. She sucks it up. He is against porn, there is ZERO expectations other than he wants his wife to want him. Period. That = love to a man. 

Pathetic. I hate to see Good men put down. Nothing about any of this is black & white. I see nothing wrong with wanting some variety either. Our sex life was pretty boring by most standards for 19 long years, but I was satisfied.... so was he, he just wanted MORE of it.... When my drive got higher, I was dying for variety... it comes with the hormones , it is a sign of HIGH TEST (another thing women won't get -unless they experience it ).... we need to go along with the other, open our minds a bit, so long as we are monogomous .... we need to bear with the other, do some kinky things....if that is what our man wants.


----------



## Runs like Dog

I understand what Catherine is saying. It's not bad advice.


----------



## Enchantment

SimplyAmorous said:


> Her husband is a good man....a damn good one, much more worthy than she is... she brags about their marraige on FB, but I know the real story ...she probably does love him, called me crying when he was sick, found out he has RA, but does she care about his needs....Hell no! If I was him, I'd leave her. I see the sadness in his eyes- when we visit *he is half the man he could be*. I blame her. He does everything for her. She sucks it up. He is against porn, there is ZERO expectations other than he wants his wife to want him. Period. That = love to a man.


Hi SA ~

You've written about this poor guy before. Maybe someone needs to slip him a copy of "No More Mr. Nice Guy", and I'm totally serious.

It could be that he's totally killed his wife's desire for him by being ... TOO nice, too accommodating, puts her on a pedestal too much ... especially if he's always doing everything for her and tolerates her nastiness.

Y'all have a great spit-fire personality that I think helps to keep your homefires burning bright (and I totally admire that in you, btw). If this gal doesn't have that inside of her, then she likely needs help from her husband to get her engines going (that is the way I am), and if he's more of a *****cat than a tiger, well...


----------



## Enchantment

Yah, actually, I agree with RLD.

Seems to me that Catherine is actually saying the same thing that Mr. Wolf is, just from the other side of the fence.. or bed. 

Both are saying that you need to try and understand and embrace the uniqueness of your spouse - try and attend to what their needs are, and not just selfishly your own. 

I always find it interesting when Catherine posts - she ruffles a lot of the men's feathers, and yet I've never had a problem with her posts and most frequently nod my head and say to myself - yep, I feel the same way - I just can't articulate it. Maybe a man who is having sexual issues with his wife should look at what she writes, take a step back, and think - "holy smokes - maybe THAT'S what my wife is *really* thinking like!" Might give you a different perspective.


----------



## Halien

shy_guy said:


> Catherine, once again you jump into a thread with both feet, completely defensive, and it becomes obvious you have not understood what you are responding to ... and I have no idea where things like "porn" are coming from to get interjected into this.
> 
> I'll respond a little bit more when I have time, but really, IMO, you need to take a deep breath, re-read, understand, put your emotions in neutral, bring down your defensiveness, and do a little introspection before jumping into threads like this. I don't know where this comes from with you. Maybe you can enlighten us a bit.


Porn gets interjected because it is a common discussion point on this site, and many of us therefore understand what Catherine is referring to. Its not meant as a criticism, but men sometimes get their only real education about sex from porn or media, and I think this is what she is referring to. If such a guy doesn't really take the time to learn and understand his wife's needs, his idea of intimacy could inevitably lead to a pretty unfulfilling sex life if he intends to be married more than a few years. My father was pretty uncouth at times, but I have to give him credit for talking often about the difference between the kind of sex that focuses on the intensity of the moment, and the type that sustains a deep and lasting bond.


----------



## Sawney Beane

Halien said:


> Porn gets interjected because it is a common discussion point on this site, and many of us therefore understand what Catherine is referring to. Its not meant as a criticism, but men sometimes get their only real education about sex from porn or media, and I think this is what she is referring to. If such a guy doesn't really take the time to learn and understand his wife's needs, his idea of intimacy could inevitably lead to a pretty unfulfilling sex life if he intends to be married more than a few years. My father was pretty uncouth at times, but I have to give him credit for talking often about the difference between the kind of sex that focuses on the intensity of the moment, and the type that sustains a deep and lasting bond.


You get men who learn all they know about sex from porn, and women who learn all they know about sex from being told "nice girls don't", and people wonder why so many couples have p!ss poor sex lives.

If reproduction wasn't so detached from sexual satisfaction, we'd have been extinct about a million years ago.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Enchantment said:


> You've written about this poor guy before. Maybe someone needs to slip him a copy of "No More Mr. Nice Guy", and I'm totally serious.
> 
> It could be that he's totally killed his wife's desire for him by being ... TOO nice, too accommodating, puts her on a pedestal too much ... especially if he's always doing everything for her.
> 
> Y'all have a great spit-fire personality that I think helps to keep your homefires burning bright (and I totally admire that in you, btw). If this gal doesn't have that inside of her, then she likely needs help from her husband to get her engines going (that is the way I am), and if he's more of a *****cat than a tiger, well...


Yes, I do mention them alot on here, because I know how the nice guy gets shafted, he is not expecting no porn sex .....and it does anger me...he is like my husband, he is simply NOT the aggressive type. He does need that book.... but I know him, he would not leave.... Too many Christian beliefs, he reads his bible every day, he has learned to live with it. BUt is he happy ...No...if I had an opportunity to talk to him.... I bet he is filled with silent resentment towards her. 

No, not alot of fire & spice from her. She is a downer really. I hardly talk to her anymore, I don't bother, she contacts me on FB now & then. I guess he has made a good friends with some mennonite woman, she tells me about that.... I am thinking to myself... hmmmm, I wonder if he will fall into cheating with her. The marrried nice guy & the Mennonite ....how unlikely it would be . We are all human after all, wouldn't surprise me given what he has to go home to every day.

Whose fault is it? Why is men to blame for being "too good" to their wives. Kinda what this thread was all about , isn't it ...that it is always the man's fault. 

I could see if he was out boozing, flirting in the bars, can't hold a job.... but a good father, helps her cook, and all he wants is 2 x a week loving. Too much to ask. He is lucky if he gets it twice a month.

I just can't fathom staying in a marraige like this. Life is too short.


----------



## MEM2020

The premise of any healthy marriage is mutuality. 

Many of the guys on here who are trying to fix their marriages have lost site of that and allowed the marital repair to become:

His responsibility: Chase her definition of what he is supposed to be, even as she changes that definition whenever she feels like it. 
Her responsibility: Evaluate him against her standards and tell him where he is failing. 

That NEVER works. EVER. It puts the responsibility for the outcome entirely on his efforts and her evaluation. 

Guess - what - in most of those situations, if he applied the same "standards" for effort, consideration, kindness, etc. to her behavior, the outcome would drastically change. 




Mr Wolf said:


> I’ve been reading in this forum and the thread on Does Your Wife Initiate Sex really got me to thinking so I decided to add my perspective. I see so many posts from men and women that have an “it’s the man’s fault tone” and “if he would just change then everything would be okay perspective”. For the record, I am divorced as a result of my ex wife having multiple affairs for which she blamed me 100%. I was also the blame for how she felt about herself, the state of our marriage, her job dissatisfaction, the global economic crisis and any other global societal ill. I am now about 2 months away from marrying a wonderful emotionally healthy woman.
> 
> Let’s face it, we all do wrong in relationships at time. People conveniently forget that for every disgruntled woman/man out there with a list of grievances for their partner’s failures, there is a man/woman who has been in a relationship with them who has a list of grievances JUST AS LONG. If you have a mate that accepts and tolerates and loves you through your issues, count yourself blessed.
> 
> Don’t punish the man because he doesn’t meet some nebulous unstated expectation that in all likelihood his wife/GF doesn’t understand herself. Her withdrawal sexually is the punishment cloaked in so many other crappy excuses (I need romance and excitement, I need him to be more dominant, I need him to do more chores around the house, I need him to constantly tell me I’m pretty so I’ll feel good about myself, I need him to listen to me and talk to me, blah, blah, blah). These are legitimate needs but they shouldn’t be used as excuses to punish your man and withdraw from him. People (men and women) need to be adults and deal with the issues in a healthy and productive way. This is not a communication style Mars/Venus issue – it is a being an adult issue. No one should want a tit for tat relationship: If you make me pay (which you have by withdrawing sexually) for everything I've done wrong, then you've stated definitively that the way relationships should work is that people make others pay for their failures. No double standards.
> 
> The sexual health of a relationship is the primary responsibility of both the man and the woman. A big part of what bothers a lot of men (sorry for generalizing) over time is the sense that their wife/GF is getting one over on them and that she has access to all of this secret information that he can never have. For relationship advice, I frequently see the implication that if the marriage/relationship has problems – especially sexual problems – then it’s the man’s fault and only he can fix it. He needs to step up and be a MAN! Be more Dominant. Initiate more, be more aggressive, make more money etc. Or he's supposed to become Mr. Emotional Transparency and a surrogate female BFF so she never feels unfulfilled again and gets the Best. Marriage/Relationship. Ever., and thus feel sexually attracted to him because she now feels happy, healthy, whole and amorous with *that* kind of marriage/relationship. In essence this comes down to “look at how much happier we are now that you do everything I want because you are afraid that I will withdraw sexually and now I’m willing to have sex with you and maybe initiate it”!!
> 
> This is one of the major issues I have with most relationship rescue philosophies. They imply that the man must clean up all of his crap, every mean thing he ever said, every insensitive thing he ever did and convert himself into the perfect Robo man in a way that precisely fits his wife's taste...and her job is… well… nothing. And then she might feel like being sexually intimate with him and MIGHT even initiate it once in a while. Just like women find it sexually attractive for a man to initiate sex and be the aggressor, many men find it just as attractive when a woman shows definitive interest, initiates it and is the aggressor – this is why so many men get caught up in affairs as their affair partners are usually way more aggressive about sex than their mates (I am in no way justifying or condoning affairs by anyone). Men don’t’ want to have sex with women who act like shy little school girls - that's gross actually. And by initiating it I don’t mean just wearing something different or nothing at all so that he gets the hint. I mean truly taking the initiative *frequently* to show your man that you have that animalistic, lustful, carnal desire for him and you plan to tear him apart. That also means being very active during your lovemaking – let him know you like what he’s doing, initiate position changes… Let yourselves go physically and emotionally during sex – trust me he WILL NOT JUDGE you.


----------



## MEM2020

This is a very one sided simplification. 

In MANY of these marriages the majority/entirety of the problem is that the LD partner (often the W) has decided that if she doesn't START OUT feeling desire, they aren't going to have sex. For an "average" male/female couple that choice results in a terrible sex life for the man. 

In a HEALTHY marriage, where there is love, consideration and mutuality, the woman teaches her man/learns herself how to relax and let him get her in the mood. 



deejov said:


> I can understand. I did read MMSL.. it's helpful for women as well.
> The one imortant aspect that was mentioned that made sense to me (the sexless partner) was this;
> 
> you are the only one that can fix the problem. She can’t, through an act of willpower, make herself want to have sex with you. Pay attention to the difference here, it’s critical you understand this. She can make herself have sex with you, she just can’t make herself want to have sex with you.
> 
> I think it's really about finding the inner sex goddess and showing her it's okay to let it out.
> 
> And by the way... when women cut off men for not meeting their needs... if that's cruel and unacceptable... why is the advice to then stop meeting the wife's needs? Isn't that tit for tat?
> 
> I know I know... she did it first, and you maybe feel like you have no other option, but I sometimes feel the 180 is used in this manner as opposed to being a preparation for divorce.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Sawney Beane said:


> You get men who learn all they know about sex from porn, and women who learn all they know about sex from being told "nice girls don't", and people wonder why so many couples have p!ss poor sex lives.


 Isn't that the overwhelming truth of the matter.


----------



## Sawney Beane

MEM11363 said:


> This is a very one sided simplification.
> 
> In MANY of these marriages the majority/entirety of the problem is that the LD partner (often the W) has decided that if she doesn't START OUT feeling desire, they aren't going to have sex. For an "average" male/female couple that choice results in a terrible sex life for the man.
> 
> In a HEALTHY marriage, where there is love, consideration and mutuality, the woman teaches her man/learns herself how to relax and let him get her in the mood.


You've said this a lot, and you're 100% right, but it appears that most low drive partners would rather have hot bamboo put under their nails than admit this is correct, never mind actually do it.

To adopt what you suggest would be to admit that they were wrong, and there are a great many people who would rather continue to think they are right than be happy.


----------



## Enchantment

SimplyAmorous said:


> Whose fault is it? Why is men to blame for being "too good" to their wives. Kinda what this thread was all about , isn't it ...that it is always the man's fault.


It's both of their faults. It always is, because marriage is a dynamic between two individuals - they both bear the burden of creating the problem, and they both bear the burden to try and fix it.

But, the question really is who should start the process?

Either one of them can start that process, but in reality, I do think that whoever has the higher desire for sex, is usually - not always, but usually - the one that has to take the first steps to try and resolve it ... and that's only because they are the one who perceives it as more of a problem.

As we've seen on this forum, that doesn't always have to be a man - we have plenty of women here who have lower drive husbands that are trying just as valiantly to take those steps to fix the sexual issues in their marriages.

Life might be easier, but probably reallllly boring, if we were all the same.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Catherine602 said:


> If I were talking to my son and daughter (if they were old enough) I would tell them both the same thing.
> 
> Come into a relationship with a mind to getting to know the person you are with. Allow them to be who they are from the begining. Don't impose a list of expectations.
> 
> State your preferences and needs and be willing to adjust to a mutually satisfactory relationship. If you are not comparable you will know.
> 
> I would tell my daughter to stay away from men who have a list of expectations as in - I won't date women who don't do some sex acts.


 I disagree on the *expectations* thing that Catherine speaks of here.....maybe it takes different personalities to appreciate a different take on this....... I personally would WANT TO KNOW what is expected of me upfront and I am very into telling a man exactly what I expect as well. I had no trouble verbalizing this in my youth even. 

...... I feel if the man knows he is going to want BJ's, he'd be a FOOL to marry a woman who is repulsed by them. Why not talk about expectations...  

I had alot of expectations when I started dating.... It is amazing he met them all .....and I was so young when we met....I was someone who knew exactly what I wanted, I could give a detailed list. They weren't so much about sex -but I sure loved playing around .....if he didn't want a large family, if he smoked, drank, the partier type, If I even questioned if he was into me.....I would have dumped him on the spot.... I had goals, dreams, I wasn't going to let them die with an irresponsible wish washy man....we all have things that are Important to us...... on both sides of the coin....

...... and a man who gets hitched & wants to remain faithful has every right in this world to have something to look forward too in the bedroom, his sexual santuary...to KNOW his future bride is willing, desirous of the sexual acts HE wants to experience IN THIS LIFETIME. After all, she is IT. He has no other outlet......at least morally. 

Falling in love does NOT cancel out these hormonal raging desires of wanting to try some variety and experience everything /anything with your lover....they simply do NOT go away!! They only eat at us. 

We all have a right to be SELFISH in what we want and choose wisely before we walk down that aisle. How is this not wisdom..I ask? 

Why do people have a such a hard time admitting they are selfish..... I'm selfish, no doubt about it, I want what I want... and I need to be marreid to someone who wants the same things, especially the things that mean ALOT to me personally. Again, that is just wisdom, if people want to judge me, have at it ! I am thrilled my husband doesn't . He loves my selfish nature ....cause I want his body! 

Think about it... *WHy do women marry*... to start a family... for security, to feel loved.... *Why does a man marry*... Love also... but a passionate happening spicy sex life.... not a cuddle roommate who is tired half the time, or who could take it or leave it ... ...if he doesn't discuss these things, this could bite him badly .... Too many have been burned by feeling "love is enough"...Love is NOT enough, that is fantasy. 

If a man is high drive he will be signing up to a life of frustration, either he will be fighting with her (& this turns her off -she feels he has no self control, what is wrong with him) or he will hold silent resentment towards her (what my husband did - shamefully I say) 

Also ...If a man deeply cares about his wife's pleasure more than his very own... he could even face near depression over her not being "into him", or experiencing orgasms....My husband is this sort of man. If he marreid a low driver, he might as well have shot himself in the head -with his passiveness & her uninterest, how uneventful &  it would have been. 





> I would tell my son not to reveal what his desires are for acts up front.


 Again, I feel the opposite ......I tell my son to make darn sure his GF & him are on the same page sexually, desiring the same things...and strongly. I even go as far as telling him -if she doesn't show some raging LUST , trouble restraining herself (if they insist on waiting) .... I would tell him to run like hell from that. ..... otherwise he is risking a marraige of sexual frustration. He is waiting for this act, the last thing he needs is to marry a repressed prude, he will curse the day he wanted to wait for marriage. It happens far too often. He puts such a high value on this act, to be denied after he marries, it will kill him. As a mother, I don't want to see this. I read too much of it here. 

I feel those dating need to talk about porn too ....Oh my YES!



> Rather explore with the person and see if you are compatible. Don't audition women, all you will get are good actresses who do things just to please you.


 And why is this ? Who is teaching these girls to go along - and do things they hate ...to please men ...they need better mentors obviously.... not going along with any crowd. Up above you said "*Allow them to be who they are from the begining*"" I agree! Our kids should never deny who they are - for another. Be open, be honest , BE REAL. There is no getting to know anyone outside of those 3 things....throw some vulnerability in there too... if you feel you love someone, it is even worth the risk of heartbreak. 









To hide & just "go along" before getting marreid is purely this *bait & switch *thing men talk about... utterly devestating to do this to a man...... nothing could crush them more than this.... after the vows. 

I am all for talking about the Expectations openly and early on ..... THat is the type of person I am. 

I very much regret we didn't do that...with sex..... and just WINGED it.

For us, it was too taboo to talk about, but that was really stupid , now wasn't it !


----------



## shy_guy

Catherine602 said:


> Once again?? You're beginning to sound like the all knowing, all seeing expert on all things pertaining to women, men and relationships.
> 
> Well teach on then.


Okay, I'll answer. I'm writing in a calm voice here - no incindiary intentions at all. I ask you to trust that, put the emotions in neutral, and listen to what I'm saying before deciding it is something to respond angrily about. I'll be detailed, and explicit on the two things I objected to in the tone of your initial reply in this thread.

Re: Once again: Do you remember these entries?



Catherine602 said:


> ...
> 
> You have a problem with the way you are thinking. Are you certain you are not suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Are you siding with men because you want to curry thier favor and avoid their criticism.
> 
> ...
> 
> The reactionary men and women are either traumatized or , have had a very hard time with bad men or women in their lives or tgey are chronically angry and frustrated and hate women because they can. I leave them alone. There is really no reason to be fearful of the wrath of men. I have been called ugly, fat, lonely, old i may be all of those but why should ugly fat old women be silent?


Stockholm syndrome from a woman who is asking a thoughtful question?

Traumatized? There are a lot of answers without knowing the context of where people are coming from. It seems to me to be an angry tone in the posts. 

Page: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/40927-feminism-has-gone-too-far-6.html

Or how about this one where you were responding to me?



Catherine602 said:


> Ooookay.
> 
> But The title implied that you were posting advice to women.
> 
> Just read don't respond?
> 
> I meant to post that I don't want to turn into a she said he said and deluge the message.
> 
> This is a good topic, might both men and women enter into the exchange?
> 
> People are are a puzzle. We say want a thing, like clear communication let say, but with one proviso. It should be on a topic in which we have a vested interest. Ok over and out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You started out okay on that thread, but I DO see a consistent pre-disposition on your part to jump to a negative conclusion and just react strongly based on that conclusion (which may be in error). We did come to amicable discussion after this, I'll grant you, and if this was the only example of you reacting this way first, I would overlook it, but I see this consistently. 

Ref: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-term-success-marriage/39459-ladies-please-dont-give-us-hints.html

The way you jump in or react is often incindiary (ex: Stockholm syndrome), and not showing a desire to better understand the issue before replying this way. I can disagree with many people on this site and have amicable discussion, but I also don't see them building strawmen out of my words like you did on the feminism thread - they tend to try to clarify and discuss the issues with me. I LOVE it when people will do that, but I question what the motives are when someone is beginning to build strawmen in order to argue with me - I'm not even trying to argue the points that are being projected on me in those cases.

Can you understand now what I mean by "once again?" Do you still think I'm unjustified by using that term?

You also bring porn into threads SO OFTEN based on something you see, and I don't see you considering other possibilities. An example is here: 



Catherine602 said:


> Another thing - get the basics of mutually satisfying sex down firmly first. That may take a year to get into a good grove. Please don't have anal with him. He can't yet have simple vaginal sex with out hurting you. He is far too inexperienced and self focused to allow to penetrate your anus.
> 
> Is he watching porn? Sounds like he wants to try out porn acts on you. Make it clear to him that porn sex is not real and it is not something that real women like. The pushing your head down is a case in point that is a porn move. Don't let him touch you head. It is up to you to teach him how to have sex with a live woman. His reaction to your body may have been because of porn. Porn does not show men giving women oral. You both have a lot to learn.
> 
> You need to protect your self he is not yet sensitive to your needs. You have to increase his awareness and have firm boundreies. No anal sex until you ate both skilled, no pushing your head you are not a porn actress, you expect to be arroused and pleased by him again porn actresses don't have orgasms but real woman expect them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ref: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/39354-husband-dislikes-giving-tmi-warning-2.html

As I read the thread, it appears to me that one act is what convinced you he is wanting to try porn moves on her. This is just another example where I think you do, in fact, need to broaden your thinking and consider other possibilities, especially what naturally goes on in a man's mind. It's a long jump from her stating that he holds her head and she doesn't like that to you thinking he wants to try porn acts on her. It's not really relevant in the discussion so far as I can see even. What he's doing is an issue in their case, but not because it is a porn move.

So let me return to the one source I know without doubting and that is my experience from within my own skin. I'll give a little different perspective and maybe you can see it a little differently. I've posted all over the Sex in Marriage forum, and I've been probably more explicit than anyone there mostly because I want to be sure I'm understood when I say something. I spend a lot of time editing to clarify for the same reason. I'm not saying anyone else needs to be like us, it's just that in my personal example, I see a lot of reason to not jump to the conclusions I think I see you jumping to.

First, my wife an I are each the other's only sex partner. We learned together. Since we've been married for 27 years, you can do the math and realize that we had been married for some time before we really even had a chance to find internet porn, and in fact, porn wasn't really a part of our marriage. We've watched it a few times, sure, but I don't think I've gotten that many ideas from porn. I've gotten ideas from people on forums like this, but I have recognized that my wife is not women (as a stereotype), she is a woman (individual). Therefore, the first mistake I can make is to try to lump her in with a stereotype, whether that stereotype comes from a woman's perspective, or a man's. When I learn things here, for example, the next thing I need to do is validate with her to see if it applies to her. Sometimes it does, and it's something neither of us had the idea for. Sometimes, it doesn't, and I drop it. That should reinforce to me (or all of us, really) that every poster here, and every spouse/SO of a poster here is an individual, and not a stereotype.

If you could get inside my 100% male mind, and see my thoughts from my 100% male perspective, you might be surprised at the depth of feeling I really have - it probably doesn't fit many stereotypes. I'm only one man, and every man is an individual just as I am. Many of my feelings never make it to my face to be shown. You will also find that I have a vivid sexual imagination. I don't think about sex every 6 seconds like that BS one-liner I hear about men all the time, but there is probably not a day that goes by that my sexual imagination doesn't kick in for some period of time. You would find that I am quite creative in this area. You would probably also find that many of the things that go on in that sexual imagination parallel things you will see in porn. That doesn't mean that I got that idea from porn - I'm quite creative on my own in this area. 

My wife and I have our little kinky preferences. I talked about two of them in this thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/39364-where-do-fetishes-start.html. For now, let's just say those are not the only two we have (and thank you to Enchantment for giving me a good distinction between "fetish" and "kink" in that thread.) I explained where they got started in that thread, too. I actually didn't know until the few years ago that porn existed that incorporated those little kinky things we like. These things, and many more came from my own sexual imagination - not porn. My wife and I explored them together.

My wife also has a pretty good sexual imagination, and it is different from mine. I described some things that she likes to do in my description of what a wildly passionate sex session for us might look like on this page: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/39045-how-would-you-classify-your-sex-2.html. Most of what I described is what she has learned that she likes, and what she has taught me she likes. None of this comes from porn. (Although from that description, someone thought I should write smut for a living.) If you read that thread, let me just clarify that the percentages and types I described there differ from time to time, and in recent weeks, my wife has taken more of an assertive approach and our starts have been much more agressive for the most part. Again, not porn inspired. She pushes me a bit beyond my comfort zone in some things, but I think she is comfortable doing this because to her, it is a way to live out a fantasy that incorporates some danger while being comfortable that I'm not really going to hurt her.

I've stated in several places that I enjoy my wife's enjoyment of sex even more than I enjoy it directly. That does not mean by any stretch that I don't enjoy sex directly - I love it. It just means that I love her enjoyment of sex with me even more. I find it more enjoyable for her to have an orgasm than it is for me to have an orgasm - and she normally has multiple orgasms in a session. I love her sounds of passion. I love it that she is uninhibited, free, and sometimes a bit wild regardless of who initiated it. When she initiates sex with me, it takes that aspect to another level - she enjoys it enough that she is willing to initiate. When she initiates agressively and confidently, then she ENTHUSIASTICALLY wants to initiate, and that communicates to me an even deeper level of enjoyment from her, and the result is an even deeper emotional connection on my part to her. You have to understand this part from me - this is just an extension of my enjoying her enjoyment. It also communicates to me that she wants ME enough to pursue ME. Just like she likes to be pursued and that communicates to her my desire for her, I also like to be pursued, and that communicates to me her desire for me. None of this is porn-inspired. 

We have to have direct communications, and sometimes it can't happen at the moment. An example is when she told me that sometimes she just wants to be the object of my animalistic desire. I know, because I know her and because I made sure ahead of time, that she means she wants me to just take her sometimes and have my way with her. She can always turn this down for real, but when I start to do that, there is always some mild objection at first from her, but it is brief. As soon as I get her to the point she knows it's going to happen, she attacks me as passionately as I attack her. I can't stop and ask at that moment or I have ruined the moment she wanted ... so despite this being an agressive act by me, it is not porn inspired - it is something we have come to an understanding that she wants sometimes. Sometimes, my imagination doesn't exactly match what she wanted, so, for example, she had to tell me to sometimes just bend her over the bed and have my way with her when I jump her like that. Well, that one got my sexual imagination going, and I had several ideas of what "Have my way with her" meant when I later put that one into action. Not porn inspired - just my imagination building on something from her imagination. (BTW, YES! She attacks me back when I do this!)

I've also told her I love for her to jump me sometimes, and this was what I was thinking about in my first response in this thread. She knows that if she is going to jump me, that means she is not supposed to stop and ask my permission first. I described some ways she initiates in this thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/40899-so-what-your-definition-wife-initiating-sex.html Sometimes, I get ambushed if you will - no permission asked. No problem - I've never minded being attacked like this. This might incorporate our little kinks, too - something to really push the boundaries in order to heighten the excitement. I've never objected - love it. Despite this being an agressive move that may parallel something you might see in porn, this is not porn inspired. This is what we developed over the years. It's what we love. When she jumps me, her desire for me is communicated to me. I love being pursued with reckless abandon, and I love her enjoyment of doing it.

I know I have a chapter here by now, but my point is that I think you can start out by realizing there may be more to the situation than you are seeing, and clarifying before becoming incindiary, or jumping to conclusions - especially the conclusions about porn which seem to be a big part of your thinking when you post here. I think most of us are a little more complex than you give us credit for being, and we don't like being stereotyped for the purpose of a quick and sweeping conclusion or statement. Can you understand what I'm saying by this? Can you see this in my long response?

Back to the OP's point, I do believe strongly both people have to be willing to do thier part in order for it to be a mutually satisfying experience. I love being pursued by my wife - want her to jump me, wear me out, and be ready to take me apart. I love her enjoyment of sex. I love to please her. I'm willing to jump her, too, or I'm willing to take the slow route and have quiet, romantic sex with her. It's all part of the whole. Some people may find inspiration in porn, and that may not even be bad (I don't know) ... people are diverse. In our case, a lot of what we love may be paralleled in porn, but believe me, it didn't come from porn - we have active imaginations that can dream it up. You have to take active sexual imaginations into account before jumping to any conclusions.

So there it is, probably in more words than you'll be willing to read, but hopefully, you understand what I'm saying. I'm not attacking you, I'm taking about a tendency I seen in your actions, and trying to explain to you why (from my own experience) I disagree with what I see in this.


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## Catherine602

I am actually not trying to be obtuse or argumentative. I recognize myself in the description of the wives of some of the men with problems. I gage my reaction based on what the man says and offer insight. I am LD although I do not deny my husband sex though. 

In fact before coming here to TAM and seeing it as a widespread problem, It would never have occurred to me to deny sex to a good man. 

Even when our marriage was in trouble we still had sex 2 times a week. That was not enough for my husband but that was all I could manage at the time. 

I did not resent him for wanting sex, I resented him at that time for a problem I inadvertently stated by freezing him out emotionally while in mommy mode. 

When I offer an insight, it may come off as abrasive or too direct. I don't know any other way to be. I want to share my insights and I am emphatic because I think it may help.

It is not a criticism just an alternate way to arrive at the same point and maybe more successfully. 

I think any mentally and physically healthy LD women can be aroused if she allows herself. I rarely have problems getting aroused, and in the mood, my problem is that I cant auto-arouse most of the time. 

I need my husbands help. He understands. I don't initiate, but we have sometimes, tender loving sex, wild crazy eeffing and naughty sexual escapades. 

It is certainly not what I would have envisioned for myself when I was an inhibited newlywed and it was not my idea it was all my husband.

Sorry guys - I think it is up to the men. You have to plan well and understand women. It is not that men are to blame or are always wrong. That is not it. It is that women will follow the man with a plan and confidence. 

We like to feel special. When you talk about your requirement for bj to feel loved that is not so enticing. But when you talk about lovely lips and tongue and hands in certain places, then you get a spark. 

You don't want any old bj you want her. If that seems like jumping through hoops then keep lecturing your wife about her duty or change up and seduce her.


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## SimplyAmorous

Enchantment said:


> Either one of them can start that process, but in reality, *I do think that whoever has the higher desire for sex, is usually - not always, but usually - the one that has to take the first steps to try and resolve it *... and that's only because they are the one who perceives it as more of a problem.


I agree with you on this -very strongly....more the responsibily of the higher drive spouse to get creative & move some mountains....:iagree: ......but it is a bit sad... my coming to believe this has near caused me to resent my husband for our past....

.....It often eats at me when I compare the sheer LENGTHS I have went to - to arouse, turn on & seduce him.... to what he did with me in the past when he was "feeling it".... I have gotten very emotional just thinking about it ....I've had to work to resolve this in my head and forgive him... 

Example .........between buying 20 books to master how to please a man, buying sex furniture, hot lingerie, photo shoots, enthusiam & passion to the high heavens, quickies, Bj every day, watching porn together , sex board games, erotic letters, flavored lubes, going to the strip club allowing him lap dances, erotic massage, erection enhancers , romantic vacations, seduction , and me getting aggressive ...of course it was FUN doing all of this (not complaining, I was compelled!!) ...not to mention treating him better, getting more sleep, going out of my way to help him so he has more Time & Test, we exercised together, we talk every day, bla bla bla ........

.......But HIM......when he was feeling LIKE THIS..... he just STUFFED IT...took it internally ... and rolled over (never read a book, never bought me a book (that was dumb, I love to read!)never surprised me with lingerie (said he had no time to shop) , rarely flirted (felt I wouldn't like it), never talked to me about his feelings (didn't want to appear needy), caused 1 fight (told me he thought I might leave him -what !!???), never suggested trying something new (vanilla is good till death), putting down his lust at every turn , the most I can point to.... for creativity is -pushing to take erotic photos of me in the past... he wrapped me in CAUTION tape once, that was sweet..... but to the rest.... his lack ... I say .....WTF!


Comparing this....this is the closest I have ever come to resenting the man. What choice do I have ....but to forgive... Not being given the opportunity to ACT, to change, to be told what for! I get near irritated with women who get mad at their men over this, I wish I had that opportunity. 

We are both at fault but damn it.... he was the higher drive! How dare him put himself down for me! I wouldn't have wanted that. 



> *Shy_Guy said *: Back to the OP's point, I do believe strongly both people have to be willing to do thier part in order for it to be a mutually satisfying experience. I love being pursued by my wife - want her to jump me, wear me out, and be ready to take me apart. I love her enjoyment of sex. I love to please her. I'm willing to jump her, too, or I'm willing to take the slow route and have quiet, romantic sex with her. It's all part of the whole. *Some people may find inspiration in porn, and that may not even be bad *(I don't know) ... people are diverse. In our case, a lot of what we love may be paralleled in porn, but believe me, it didn't come from porn - we have active imaginations that can dream it up. You have to take active sexual imaginations into account before jumping to any conclusions


 I enjoyed reading your post, I know what a fine christian man you are... sweet that imagination you have! 

My husband does not have an imagination like that ! Porn did help us .... us boring unimaginative repressed cusses. What can I say. It spiced it up, gave me some ideas to run with, my husband only liked solo porn, he would have been much better off viewing "man on women" and gotten some sweet ideas to try on me!

We all have vastly different stories here , differnet perspectives, I often feel like a lone voice, and for who.. I have no idea!


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## Catherine602

Shy why are you taking the trouble to pull diverse post to prove that I am in a misandric cabal? 

The picture you paint is damning indeed. This is like the blind man describing an elephant on the basis of a thorough examination of its trunk. :scratchhead:

I have over 2000 post. If you insist upon analyzing me at lest take a complete look and then do your thing. Better yet start a thread on "the miseducation of Catherine602". Make it a satire. I am the archetypal whining, meandering, confused, disgruntled, man-hating with holding beoch. 

I am not overly narcissistic but I do like attention when I can get it.


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## shy_guy

Catherine602 said:


> Shy why are you taking the trouble to pull diverse post to prove that I am in a misandric cabal?
> 
> The picture you paint is damning indeed. This is like the blind man describing an elephant on the basis of a thorough examination of its trunk. :scratchhead:
> 
> I have over 2000 post. If you insist upon analyzing me at lest take a complete look and then do your thing. Better yet start a thread on "the miseducation of Catherine602". Make it a satire. I am the archetypal whining, meandering, confused, disgruntled, man-hating with holding beoch.
> 
> I am not overly narcissistic but I do like attention when I can get it.


If you're talking to me, then maybe you can summarize your last 2000 posts for me to show me where I'm wrong. I'm talking about what I think I see in the times I have interacted with you. Did I misrepresent anything in what I posted? If I did, then please show it. If I am just examining the trunk, then by all means, please show me the rest of the elephant. I think this is a straw man argument being posted again.


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## MEM2020

SB,
I think for this to work a short list of things need to be true from the start and they need to REMAIN true:
1. The HD partner perceives their own physical need for sex and the positive feeling they get from it as normal and healthy
2. They ALSO recognize that if their partner is stretching to accommodate them in the bedroom, they (the HD partner) need to be stretching outside the bedroom to make sure their LD partner's needs are well met
3. The HD partner is highly supportive during periods when frequency is a lot less then they would like for reasons beyond their LD partners control
4. The HD partner makes it clear from the start that THEIR needs are just as valid and important as the LD partners and that being deprioritized or badly treated sexually is not different than in any other way. And that such treatment is not "acceptable" in the context of a "monogamous" marriage. 

I think (4) might be the single hardest thing for a typical male to grasp. I have said this before and believe it strongly: I would not divorce my W over sex/lack of sex. However I would not allow my W to demand celibacy of me. I guess that means if she said/made it clear through her actions that our sex life was over, I would find an outside outlet. But I wouldn't lie about that. 

I have read so many men's posts "I wouldn't divorce my W over a lack of sex, I made a vow". Interestingly they seem to accept the idea that:
- It is ok for their W's to break their first vow, the vow to love AND 
- For their W's to divorce THEM, if they do something with another woman, that their own Wife refuses to do with them

I couldn't go for that. 




Sawney Beane said:


> You've said this a lot, and you're 100% right, but it appears that most low drive partners would rather have hot bamboo put under their nails than admit this is correct, never mind actually do it.
> 
> To adopt what you suggest would be to admit that they were wrong, and there are a great many people who would rather continue to think they are right than be happy.


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## Catherine602

SA I think every one has expectations. I should have said to reveal them in due time. I know too many men who are manipulated by women with great sex. 

I think revealing everything up front before you even know what the person is like invites manipulation. I fear that my son will be manipulated by his desires. I'd rather that he be smart and discerning and selective. 

Judging a women's suitability for a relationship on the basis of whether or not she gives bj's is foolish to me. 

Evaluating the woman on the basis of her capacity for empathy, her attitude towards men in general, her ability to adapt, sense of humor, ability to admit she is wrong and to change, the quality of her commitments, her friendships and the way she treats people when no one is looking, are better ways to gage if she will like to give oral sex.


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## shy_guy

Catherine602 said:


> I am actually not trying to be obtuse or argumentative. I recognize myself in the description of the wives of some of the men with problems. I gage my reaction based on what the man says and offer insight. I am LD although I do not deny my husband sex though.
> 
> In fact before coming here to TAM and seeing it as a widespread problem, It would never have occurred to me to deny sex to a good man.
> 
> Even when our marriage was in trouble we still had sex 2 times a week. That was not enough for my husband but that was all I could manage at the time.
> 
> I did not resent him for wanting sex, I resented him at that time for a problem I inadvertently stated by freezing him out emotionally while in mommy mode.
> 
> When I offer an insight, it may come off as abrasive or too direct. I don't know any other way to be. I want to share my insights and I am emphatic because I think it may help.
> 
> It is not a criticism just an alternate way to arrive at the same point and maybe more successfully.
> 
> I think any mentally and physically healthy LD women can be aroused if she allows herself. I rarely have problems getting aroused, and in the mood, my problem is that I cant auto-arouse most of the time.
> 
> I need my husbands help. He understands. I don't initiate, but we have sometimes, tender loving sex, wild crazy eeffing and naughty sexual escapades.
> 
> It is certainly not what I would have envisioned for myself when I was an inhibited newlywed and it was not my idea it was all my husband.
> 
> Sorry guys - I think it is up to the men. You have to plan well and understand women. It is not that men are to blame or are always wrong. That is not it. It is that women will follow the man with a plan and confidence.
> 
> We like to feel special. When you talk about your requirement for bj to feel loved that is not so enticing. But when you talk about lovely lips and tongue and hands in certain places, then you get a spark.
> 
> You don't want any old bj you want her. If that seems like jumping through hoops then keep lecturing your wife about her duty or change up and seduce her.


Thank you for giving us this insight into you Catherine. Posts like this are very helpful for people like me on sites like this. I am sincere when I say "Thank you."


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## Enchantment

SimplyAmorous said:


> Comparing this....this is the closest I have ever come to resenting the man. What choice do I have ....but to forgive... Not being given the opportunity to ACT, to change, to be told what for! I get near irritated with women who get mad at their men over this, I wish I had that opportunity.
> 
> We are both at fault but damn it.... he was the higher drive! How dare him put himself down for me! I wouldn't have wanted that.


Glad you have been able to forgive your husband, SA. Because the way you two are now seems nothing short of a pair made in heaven. 

Just don't take anything out on other women whose lives you don't really have a view in to - simply because they are in a position that you yourself wished you had been able to be in.

Just imagine if you were one of those wives, SA - back like how you used to be - and your husband did come on to you - but all he did was hound you or beg at you or give you the silent treatment and sulk at you when you didn't comply...not all 'nice guys' are really that nice - many of them rely on their wives to supply their daily dose of self-respect and self-worth instead of cultivating it themselves and that's about as big of a desire killer as there is (and I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of guys who have really crummy, selfish wives - because some of them certainly do - just using some examples that I have seen on the board.)

I'm curious - is your H any more assertive with you now - now that it's unlikely you would ever turn him down? I know he's probably sitting across the table from you right now, so let him know that I told him to be the alpha dog this week and set the pace of ravishments and surprise you this next week, okay?


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## Catherine602

shy_guy said:


> Thank you for giving us this insight into you Catherine. Posts like this are very helpful for people like me on sites like this. I am sincere when I say "Thank you."


You are quite welcome Shy. I enjoy debating with you on these important issues. I think a good debate with some heat thrown in is good because it makes people think and react. 

I take more notice when there are strong reactions because I wonder what is happening. My mantra is "watch the tone C" and sometimes it works but not always. 

Thank you for being so engaging.


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## SimplyAmorous

Enchantment said:


> Glad you have been able to forgive your husband, SA. Because the way you two are now seems nothing short of a pair made in heaven.


 And it is.... I even felt it was THEN pretty much... how foolish was I ! All those yrs, we did everything together, beautiful memories -till joined at the hip, still watched movies every night while he held me, fingers through my hair.... I chose him over my Gf's, we never had a fight ...about "*us*". I would get irritated about other things... but never us. I thought we were "good"... see just goes to show how MEN , even the very best of them, will grow silent resentment towards their wives....if the sex is lacking. 

Is that my message to all women... I believe it is. 

It is a devestating thing to learn yrs later that your husband WANTED you to suffer like him- when you believed you "both happy".... It was that "silent growing resentment" that destroyed his coming on to me, his creativity.... it even lowered his sex drive over time, feeling it was a scourge. Some men cheat, mine just suffered. Had he cheated , yeah, I would have had his head -ONLY because he didn't say anything to me, I had a right to know- he wasn't happy! 

If he DID pester me & I ignored him -pushed him away.... I'd see myself, my own hand, in what led up to him going astray with another. That line of thinking likely offends many...but that is how I feel, I'm not going to lie. I don't feel we should ignore our spouses sexual needs -at all...if they are reasonable (anything beyond once a day is not) He feels the same. And for this, I am very very very blessed. I wouldn't even want to be married to someone who felt differently. 




> Just don't take anything out on other women whose lives you don't really have a view in to - simply because they are in a position that you yourself wished you had been able to be in.


 I try to listen to others stories without jumping too fast, I do TRY. But yeah, this is a TOUGH one for me, I'll admit that. 



> Just imagine if you were one of those wives, SA - back like how you used to be - and your husband did come on to you - but all he did was hound you or beg at you or give you the silent treatment and sulk at you when you didn't comply...not all 'nice guys' are really that nice - many of them rely on their wives to supply their daily dose of self-respect and self-worth instead of cultivating it themselves and that's about as big of a desire killer as there is (and I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of guys who have really crummy, selfish wives - because some of them certainly do - just using some examples that I have seen on the board.)


 First of all ...how I used to be wasn't that bad ... he had PLENTY to work with, I LOVED sex- or I wouldn't have been taking care of myself in the middle of the night thinking he wouldn't want woke up. I just didn't THINK about it as much as him -had he accually TRIED to get me going, made it more interesting, flirted a little (He was such a silent pursuer).....hell yeah... he likely could have had me 4 times a week! I was never tired....I used to get mad at him being too tired. Only during infertility it would have been an issue (where all this started) cause I feared it would deplete his sperm count. 

I could never be with a silent treatment holder, NEVER ..Even though he was upset, he never did that to me....I think he knew better....But a good fight, the begging, the pleading ... I can think of alot worse things in life ... feeling feircely wanted sexually, sorry I think that would be awesome! I LIKE needy men... in that area anyway.....Remember I am a woman who doesn't need a cave, I love to be with my man 24/7.... I do believe I would have tried to satisfy, him coming on to me saying... "I need you baby" , I would have loved that ... how easy to give a man an exciting hand job- at the very least ....10 minuntes of my time. He only asked me once in 19 yrs -to do that for him. ONCE! It is a fond memory. 

He should have wrestled my grumpy ass to the ground back then, that would have been FUN ! He never did that either. I know me well, that would have snapped me out of it, had me laughing. So long as he was making fun of me anyway, he does that alot when I may get in a fowl mood...LOVE how he brings me out of it. He is perfect for me - in this sense. 



> I'm curious - is your H any more assertive with you now - now that it's unlikely you would ever turn him down? I know he's probably sitting across the table from you right now, so let him know that I told him to be the alpha dog this week and set the pace of ravishments and surprise you this next week, okay?


 He doesn't hide how he feels in anything now... Our sex drives are near the same, it is still very rare where he would want it & me not be up for it...that just doesn't happen... So not really any opportunity to step up the alpha dog. He'll never be the aggressor I am , I will jump on him and he'll jokingly say "rape"..."rape"... very happily at that. 

If I had to wait a week for him to come on to me, I would cause a hissy fit. Then on his end, he would be feeling I was slowing down -he doesn't want to see this end. One morning he teared up thinking I was slowing down... I was like.... WOW... really!! I drain every drop of his his test ....and still he loves it. That moment was very very special to me -it layed my fears to rest that...he really loves me feircely wanting him , even if it is a bit much for his aging sex drive.  

He's a gem, what we have NOW is beyond awesome .  I just believe it could have been then too.


----------



## Sawney Beane

Catherine602 said:


> I think any mentally and physically healthy LD women can be aroused if she allows herself. I rarely have problems getting aroused, and in the mood, my problem is that I cant auto-arouse most of the time.





MEM11363 said:


> SB,
> 2. They ALSO recognize that if their partner is stretching to accommodate them in the bedroom, they (the HD partner) need to be stretching outside the bedroom to make sure their LD partner's needs are well met
> 3. The HD partner is highly supportive during periods when frequency is a lot less then they would like for reasons beyond their LD partners control


This is the crux of it. People CAN be aroused. People will not LET themselves be aroused.

I see a similar thing. People say to me that they'd like to be as fit as I am. I say they have to eat properly and exercise hard. Their reply?

"Oh, I can't exercise".

Crap. They WON'T exercise. There is a lady who posts here who broke her neck. She used to be a runner and now can't run. She exercises via a static bike.

In short, the number of people who physically cannot exercise is very, very small. The number of people who are *unwilling* to is very, very large.

Likewise as you say Catherine, most people can get turned on and enjoy sex if they let themselves. It isn't they they can't, they just won't.

Why?

Because it's better to be right than happy;
Because doing it (exercise or sex) would involve admitting being wrong;
Because it would involve giving up power;
Because it's easier to complain than improve.

Whatever. They have decided they won't and that's an end. I'm not talking about abusive situations, long term resentment and so on, or people who hold a grudge because someone didn't empty the kitchen bin on Easter Sunday in 1996.

And you can't change their view. In the same way I cannot take all the non-exercisers and beast them around a field like my old sergeant used to, the HD partner can't make the other play the game. And in the same way that until the lazy fat people who "can't" exercise decide for THEMSELVES to get off the sofa, stop eating pies and do something about it, the same goes for sex.


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## SimplyAmorous

Catherine602 said:


> SA I think every one has expectations. I should have said to reveal them in due time. I know too many men who are manipulated by women with great sex.
> 
> I think revealing everything up front before you even know what the person is like invites manipulation. I fear that my son will be manipulated by his desires. I'd rather that he be smart and discerning and selective.


 I also feel people should *NEVER* jump right into sex, but take the time to get to know one another...Please take a moment & read my thoughts on *#1 *and *#6* here (my thoughts on the sexual )... THIS is what I will be teaching all of my children in dating...what is feel is vital to get a handle on , avoiding disaster & misery after the vows... 

I would be curious of your thoughts Catherine, if you disagree with any of it, please do post on my thread... (I love a little debate too!)

This is my masterpeice thread really ... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...ility-b4-vows-beyond-marital-harmony-joy.html



> Judging a women's suitability for a relationship on the basis of whether or not she gives bj's is foolish to me.


 It would be more foolish if a Man KNEW he wanted this in his marriage...and married a woman who never would...it would cause massive resentment in the man ...or he would start fighting/judging her for not being like other women, feeling he is missing out. Again it would = suffering in the man, and he would bring suffering to the woman who wanted no part of it....enter the grand canyon gulf, the beginning of many problems. 

That gift lie dormant in my marriage for 19 long yrs...when I finally came into being the loving wife I should have been.... I can not tell you how THIS uplifted my husband's spirits.... that I wanted him in every way, that I craved him, I wanted to "make love" to him with my mouth. There was an older thread in the sex section... about men who put BJ's high on the pedestal of importance.... women feel it is rediculous (it was very obvious by their posts, jumping all over the men for being shallow)... they take great offense to this...

Well.... I asked my own husband how he felt that night ....surprise surprise...it was HIGH on his list as well, he is no different than any other man..... was in his top 3 even. It is a huge deal to a man. 

It is near indescribable what this does for them, that we, their wives, want to tear their clothes off and devour them, it is very passionate, nothing is more intimate . To have your wife NOT wanting to be there...a man "feels" this......it destroys it all....reduces it to ashes. 

Why do women downplay this. I don't get it. We want them to listen to us... why are we not listening to them... their hearts on this- a man loves pleasure -that is just LIFE.... all women see is a dirty old man, a man who wants porn sex. I don't see that at all. At least not with my husband. 

Even though I can't even get off when he gives me "oral"...(simply forplay for us)... if my husband didn't desire me in this way, I would be very very sad, I would even feel like something was wrong with me.... I NEED that from my husband... Men feel the same. It is a "gift" of love, a gift of pleasure. 



> Evaluating the woman on the basis of her capacity for empathy, her attitude towards men in general, her ability to adapt, sense of humor, ability to admit she is wrong and to change, the quality of her commitments, her friendships and the way she treats people when no one is looking, are better ways to gage if she will like to give oral sex.


This could easily describe a church full of repressed women.... great hearts, delicious cooks, Fantastic Mothers even, a love of community, but in the bedroom.... this by no means = a woman who passionately desires to please with enthusiam, and be open to sexual variety & newness. 

If she has little interest in educating herself about how to  Tickle his pickle (book) ...to be that Better lover...feeling..."why is that important?".... some willingness to get inside the psyche of her man, recognizing if she has hang ups... she is going to overcome if it kills her... with a healthy attitude....I'd say a man would be taking a RISK , no guarentees she will ever enjoy going down on him.



> *Sawney Beane said *: This is the crux of it. People CAN be aroused. People will not LET themselves be aroused.


 I so agree with you on all that you bring to this forum on this issue, you pound it time & time again. It is ROOT of the problem. It is also an *attitude*.


----------



## deejov

MEM11363 said:


> This is a very one sided simplification.
> 
> In MANY of these marriages the majority/entirety of the problem is that the LD partner (often the W) has decided that if she doesn't START OUT feeling desire, they aren't going to have sex. For an "average" male/female couple that choice results in a terrible sex life for the man.
> 
> In a HEALTHY marriage, where there is love, consideration and mutuality, the woman teaches her man/learns herself how to relax and let him get her in the mood.


Not just my opinion, but other female friends I have talked. to.
Start out feeling desire. Very truthfully worded.
But here's a common theme I've noticed:
While dating... there is extended foreplay.
When married... that can turn into touching her hips and saying "wanna?". 
so truthfully... how often do men stop "dating and wooing" their wives and get lazier about foreplay?
If not very often, then why is the MMSL about behaving like you did when you were dating? 

Are you really surprised that women need to be coaxed into desire, and why, after marriage, is a woman just supposed to JUMP into "I'm turned on" mode. Let herself relax and get into the mood. It was the man's job while dating. He made sure she got aroused if he wanted sex. Maybe it didn't seem that way... because it was EASY.


----------



## MEM2020

Deejov,
Maybe that is the fifth factor. I like foreplay and don't really care for quickies. 





UOTE=deejov;613969]Not just my opinion, but other female friends I have talked. to.
Start out feeling desire. Very truthfully worded.
But here's a common theme I've noticed:
While dating... there is extended foreplay.
When married... that can turn into touching her hips and saying "wanna?". 
so truthfully... how often do men stop "dating and wooing" their wives and get lazier about foreplay?
If not very often, then why is the MMSL about behaving like you did when you were dating? 

Are you really surprised that women need to be coaxed into desire, and why, after marriage, is a woman just supposed to JUMP into "I'm turned on" mode. Let herself relax and get into the mood. It was the man's job while dating. He made sure she got aroused if he wanted sex. Maybe it didn't seem that way... because it was EASY.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lionelhutz

Catherine602 said:


> Judging a women's suitability for a relationship on the basis of whether or not she gives bj's is foolish to me.
> 
> Evaluating the woman on the basis of her capacity for empathy, her attitude towards men in general, her ability to adapt, sense of humor, ability to admit she is wrong and to change, the quality of her commitments, her friendships and the way she treats people when no one is looking, are better ways to gage if she will like to give oral sex.


I agree with SA, I don't think it is necessarily foolish.

The other issues you mentioned are important but I value persistent behaviour patterns far more than what people say about themselves. I would not marry a woman who did not like to give BJs and I don't obsess over them like some men do.

Why? It is simply a matter of probability. People change so there are no guarantees not matter what your selection criterion are, but it seems that for a whole list of reasons, the long term sexual health of the marriage and thus the strength of the marriage as a whole is likely to be far stronger with a woman who likes to give BJs than with a woman who found it gross, or even worse, demeaning.


----------



## Enchantment

deejov said:


> Not just my opinion, but other female friends I have talked. to.
> Start out feeling desire. Very truthfully worded.
> But here's a common theme I've noticed:
> While dating... there is extended foreplay.
> When married... that can turn into touching her hips and saying "wanna?".
> so truthfully... how often do men stop "dating and wooing" their wives and get lazier about foreplay?
> If not very often, then why is the MMSL about behaving like you did when you were dating?
> 
> Are you really surprised that women need to be coaxed into desire, and why, after marriage, is a woman just supposed to JUMP into "I'm turned on" mode. Let herself relax and get into the mood. It was the man's job while dating. He made sure she got aroused if he wanted sex. Maybe it didn't seem that way... because it was EASY.


:iagree:

Back when Masters & Johnson first started to study human sexual behaviour and published their first book on it in the '60's the prevailing thought was that men and women were essentially the same when it came to sexual arousal, desire, and response. But, there were niggling things that didn't line up with women's sexual response cycles - especially in women who were in LTRs.

Since then, there's been a lot more research in to the dynamics of the female sexual response cycle...and it is NOT like the male sexual response cycle.

But, culturally (at least in the hypersexualized westernized ones), we (both men and women) are fed this message that a female must respond in the same manner as a male - it must be mutually spontaneous, they must be mutually horny at the same time, it must also be wildly orgasmic ...

When, as a woman, you don't fit this model, you feel somewhat defective and disconnected from it all - like for some reason there is something wrong with you because you don't fit into the 'box' of human sexuality that readily exists in people's minds.

Was I ever liberated when I started to get interested in this and started to read and research, and I found that my mode of operation - just like what you described above deejov - was totally... NORMAL.

Clinical Fact Sheets: Female Sexual Response

That made a HUGE difference in how I felt about myself and my sexuality. It made a HUGE difference in how my husband and I approach things now. Made a HUGE difference in his attitude about sex.

We really miss the mark on educating young people about sexuality and marriage. I'm making sure that my sons (have no daughters) have all of this knowledge so hopefully they can go into a relationship with a better understanding of some of the dynamics - after all - they may be the only ones who will have been given that information.


----------



## Beowulf

Mr Wolf said:


> How can any person seeking help on this issue know what to change about themselves if their mate does not/will not explore the issue and communicate what the issue is? I find that to be the most common problem on both side of the gender divide.
> 
> My point is that both people have a responsibility in the issue. For example, to simply tell the man to fix what you can about yourself and make yourself more appealing, be a man, don't lose her respect, etc. doesn't help if the issues is a hormonal issue with his wife (which she hasn't bothered to share or even explore) and the real fix is a slight change in her meds. Likewise, that advice doesn't help if he is doing something that makes her feel vulnerable and he doesn't kow it.


Yes both people have a responsibility to solve the issue but understand that the only one you can control is you. It has been my experience that many times women do not really know what it is that is wrong and consequently they don't always know what it is that they want. That is why you need to do what you have to do, lead the relationship where you want it to go and if your wife doesn't want to come along for the ride your attitude has to be it's her loss.


----------



## Beowulf

deejov said:


> Not just my opinion, but other female friends I have talked. to.
> Start out feeling desire. Very truthfully worded.
> But here's a common theme I've noticed:
> While dating... there is extended foreplay.
> When married... that can turn into touching her hips and saying "wanna?".
> so truthfully... how often do men stop "dating and wooing" their wives and get lazier about foreplay?
> If not very often, then why is the MMSL about behaving like you did when you were dating?
> 
> Are you really surprised that women need to be coaxed into desire, and why, after marriage, is a woman just supposed to JUMP into "I'm turned on" mode. Let herself relax and get into the mood. It was the man's job while dating. He made sure she got aroused if he wanted sex. Maybe it didn't seem that way... because it was EASY.


I really wanted my wife to post here using her own account but she said I should say this for her.

In marriage you are often tired, kids drive you crazy, work is a hassle, the car broke, gas prices are up, her mother is a b!tch, etc etc etc

She says there are many times when she doesn't start out feeling that she wants sex. But she knows how important it is to me and she knows that I satisfy her needs all the time. So she never says no to sex unless she is legitimately sick. She says that most of the time after we get started she *GETS* in the mood and always enjoys it. So she wanted me to post and say that these women who are looking for their fuse to always be lit need to either light it themselves or at least allow the man to strike the match and see if it catches.


----------



## Sawney Beane

Beowulf said:


> So she wanted me to post and say that these women who are looking for their fuse to always be lit need to either light it themselves or at least allow the man to strike the match and see if it catches.


This is the point that has been made over and over and over again here, by many, many people, men and women.

The key word in what you have said is ALLOW. There are lots and lots of people who will NOT allow it to happen. And you _*cannot*_ MAKE them allow it to happen.

You can only lead someone who wants to be led.


----------



## deejov

Beowulf,
Tell your wife that does make sense. My point is .. does the husband even strike the match? 

I totally agree that you can GET a woman in the mood. Almost always. Unless things are so dead and full of resentment, or there is a medical issue. 

Learning how to get your woman in the mood is the personal challenge. Some women will just go with it and allow it to happen. Some do need more than a blunt "wanna do it". 

But I think it is nonsense to say that just because you are married, you should be able to just say "wanna do it" and expect her to light her own fuse and complain that she doesn't want sex anymore. 

If you are horny, and she isn't.. make her horny.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

deejov said:


> Beowulf,
> Tell your wife that does make sense. My point is .. does the husband even strike the match?
> 
> I totally agree that you can GET a woman in the mood. Almost always. Unless things are so dead and full of resentment, or there is a medical issue.


This is where my husband failed, his matches were half wet, I never had any resentment, no medical issues, I wasn't tired, he was an overly sensitive Nice Guy & didn't pursue. Though when trying to conceive, I was a basketcase & not pleasant to deal with ....I can't argue that at all. I was more to blame then for sure.


----------



## AFEH

I think these things have so very much to do with chemistry. More often than not all I needed to do was see my wife and I was ready to go. All I needed to do was touch her and she was ready to go. And this could even be in the midst of the most trying conflicts!

That chemistry lasted over 4 decades. I believe it’s still there now even though we’re separated for two years. It’s one of the reasons I wont see her, because to see her would be to want her and I’m not going there as it doesn’t resolve problems.


I also think it has a heck of a lot to do with character. If my wife had consistently initiated with me I wouldn’t have liked it as I like to be the initiator.


----------



## Beowulf

deejov said:


> Beowulf,
> Tell your wife that does make sense. My point is .. does the husband even strike the match?
> 
> I totally agree that you can GET a woman in the mood. Almost always. Unless things are so dead and full of resentment, or there is a medical issue.
> 
> Learning how to get your woman in the mood is the personal challenge. Some women will just go with it and allow it to happen. Some do need more than a blunt "wanna do it".
> 
> But I think it is nonsense to say that just because you are married, you should be able to just say "wanna do it" and expect her to light her own fuse and complain that she doesn't want sex anymore.
> 
> If you are horny, and she isn't.. make her horny.


Unless the husband is suffering from ED or has been rejected so often that he gives up I don't know a man alive that wouldn't be willing to strike the match.

What is the wife's responsibility in getting herself in the mood? Can't she make herself horny? Read an erotic novel. Look at porn. Experiment with sex toys. Whatever it takes.

Many women are so out of touch with their own sexuality that they cannot let the man know how to please them. Most husband's did not attend the Svengali School for Sexual Advancement. Ultimately women are responsible for their own sexual pleasure. And their own orgasms for that matter.

If a woman cannot or will not do the work necessary to find out what lights her fuse and communicate it to their husbands then they are doomed to a pitiful marriage because their husbands are going to feel rejected and resentful. Why choose to have a marriage like that?


----------



## Lionelhutz

Enchantment said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Back when Masters & Johnson first started to study human sexual behaviour and published their first book on it in the '60's the prevailing thought was that men and women were essentially the same when it came to sexual arousal, desire, and response. But, there were niggling things that didn't line up with women's sexual response cycles - especially in women who were in LTRs.
> 
> 
> But, culturally (at least in the hypersexualized westernized ones), we (both men and women) are fed this message that a female must respond in the same manner as a male - it must be mutually spontaneous, they must be mutually horny at the same time, it must also be wildly orgasmic ...
> 
> When, as a woman, you don't fit this model, you feel somewhat defective and disconnected from it all - like for some reason there is something wrong with you because you don't fit into the 'box' of human sexuality that readily exists in people's minds.
> 
> Was I ever liberated when I started to get interested in this and started to read and research, and I found that my mode of operation - just like what you described above deejov - was totally... NORMAL.
> 
> Clinical Fact Sheets: Female Sexual Response
> 
> That made a HUGE difference in how I felt about myself and my sexuality. It made a HUGE difference in how my husband and I approach things now. Made a HUGE difference in his attitude about sex.


There is a problem with this interpretation. It is far too easy a cop out for wives who simply don't see sex as their job. As in if we are not having sex, it must be your fault therefore I am entitled to ignore it except to let you know when and if you hit the mark. 

An equally valid, and in my view equally weak argument, could be that a male should follow his natural impulse and instead of being Mr. Romantic he should be demanding and assertive about sex, and if those displays of dominance fail to excite her, he should give her reason to suspect he might seek sex outside the marriage.

The argument would then follow that instead of the husband continuing to woo, what the male needs to do is keep his wife in a subtle but constant state of insecurity. Many women who decline sex do so precisely because they feel secure and are convinced that the male won't seek it elsewhere.

You mentioned a "hypersexualized" Western cultural, but if that is true is equally true that the West is hyper-romantized. The idea of romantic love as an essential component in marriage is a fairly recent creation and it is not shared everywhere. In less romantic cultures marriage is primarily about economics and which children must be supported. 

The idea the sex is only possible when everything is romantic and "just right" is arguably just as "unnatural". If it were true, humans would never have flourished under the horrible and nasty existence the large majority of our ancestors experienced. You sometimes hear the term "F*ck like Animals" but actually it should be "F*ck like Humans" because we are far more sexual that nearly all mammals and are built to allow for non-reproductive sex. 

In short, I am all for explanations about human behaviour that begin with theories of biologically based behaviour or evolutionary psychology, BUT, as I have said elsewhere, that doesn't mean I should punch the guy ahead of me in the line at the ATM because that is just how my biology dictates I behave.

We are conscious and thinking beings but we do need to embrace and account for our biology. However, even as a purely an abstract concept, both husbands and wives are capable of understanding and accepting responsibility for accommodating the other spouse's sexual needs. The same is true for romance and general non-sexual affection.


So yes, your feelings of what you need to be turned on are valid and need to be turned on needs to accounted for by your husband, but the key thing is both parties must accept the obligation and share the responsibility in helping that happen.


----------



## Beowulf

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is where my husband failed, his matches were half wet, I never had any resentment, no medical issues, I wasn't tired, he was an overly sensitive Nice Guy & didn't pursue. Though when trying to conceive, I was a basketcase & not pleasant to deal with ....I can't argue that at all. I was more to blame then for sure.


This is not directed at you specifically but just a general response.


While I agree that it feels awkward to have to encourage a husband to take the lead more often (i.e. be more dominant) it is really not that difficult. It starts outside the bedroom.

When you go out to dinner act a little demur. Let him pick the place. Let him even order for you. "I'm not sure what to order here. I'm having trouble deciding. Can you please order for me?"

Whether you can open the damn jar or not ask him for help and then tell him how much you appreciate having a strong man around.

Basically find ways outside the bedroom to build him up as a take charge kind of guy. Then in the bedroom vocalize. "Oh God I love it when you do that!" "You hit all the right spots." "You're such a great lover."

After sex *YOU* cuddle in to *HIM*. "You were wonderful tonight."

Eventually you can begin to subtly slip in suggestions. "Oh baby, just a little to the right." "Oh right there, that's the spot, harder, harder." Whatever.

Soon he will know what you like and will have confidence to take charge in the bedroom. Of course this all depends on whether the woman actually cares enough to try.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> I also think it has a heck of a lot to do with character. If my wife had consistently initiated with me I wouldn’t have liked it as I like to be the initiator.


 My husband does like that (thank god) or our chemistry would be shot! If only I had been in tune with my sexual being back in the day....but we are told women are bad girls to act like that ....it gets beat into our skulls from an early age. 

And you know what is really funny, if I was asked about my fantasies .....they might involve taking down some young innocent shy boy ...to give him the thrill of his life...showing him a good time, so truly.... I have an aggressive spirit about me.... just wasn't in touch with it back in the day.... he is more the Receptive Lover, we've done the tests. Shouldn't have taken us this long to figure it all out though. 

He lights up too, but it would be rising a shot faster in his younger years.



> If a woman cannot or will not do the work necessary to find out what lights her fuse and communicate it to their husbands then they are doomed to a pitiful marriage because their husbands are going to feel rejected and resentful. Why choose to have a marriage like that?


 When a couple is repressed, they do not realize how vital these things are, we were like that... both of us were too embarrased to bring up masterbation, too taboo. It is hard to describe , when he touched me, if it hurt, I hesitated to tell him , I might move instead, didn't want to hurt his feelings..... so retarded ...believe me...I KNOW !!!!! Live & freaking learn. I masterbated our whole marriage, he never did - we never talked about any of this....until 3 yrs ago. 

We have to be one of the dumbest married couple who graced the planet in this area- considering how open we were in every other aspect of our marraige.


----------



## deejov

Mr. B,
I agree and disagree.
Oh my gosh I do not agree that a woman should watch porn to get horny so she can have sex with her husband. She wants and needs her husband to turn her on. Gives the impression of...
"I'll just lay here naked. You go look at another naked man on dvd and when you are horny, come climb on top of me and do me. It's your job". Meaning... " I don't care what you need to turn you on. Just do it".

I do really agree that aggression and pursuing might work better. 
Why? Because it takes confidence. That's what is sexy. I cannot tell you how UNattractive it is to have a man stand in front of you and say "wanna have sex". Or have him touch your hips and say "wanna". It's a huge shutdown. 
I'm not talking about buying flowers and doing dishes. Not at all.

I'm talking about flirting all day. Kissing her on the neck. If she pushes you away, try another spot. Hugging her from behind while she is doing the dishes. All those things you did when you were dating a girl and trying to get her into bed. You didn't stand 2 feet away and say "I'm horny". You got close, you touched, you kissed, she got turned on, and off you went. 

Yes, you might get rejected. But try again tomorrow. Ask her when you are kissing her neck if it turns her on. It's all about confidence.

And here's an important part. Don't do this stuff when kids are hungry, timing is bad, etc. 

It's no different than a woman in her 40's trying to find a new way to get her older husband interested in sex. And it's HER job to do it! To find new ways to arouse him.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Beowulf said:


> When you go out to dinner act a little demur. Let him pick the place. Let him even order for you. "I'm not sure what to order here. I'm having trouble deciding. Can you please order for me?"


 He would likely laugh at this. He'd probably ask me if I was alright. 



> Basically find ways outside the bedroom to build him up as a take charge kind of guy. Then in the bedroom vocalize. "Oh God I love it when you do that!" "You hit all the right spots." "You're such a great lover."


 I do build him up...all the time, inside the bedroom- oh yeah ..that is the most enjoyable.... outside the bedroom, our kids see it... in front of friends, on this forum, I uplift him around family, speak about what a wonderful father he is, superb handman- he crafts his own tools, he can fix near anything, he AMAZES me ....... I near "get off" on singing his praises ...and of course he loves this, eats it up....this makes him feel overwhelmingly loved. 

Yes, I spoil him!  He would agree. 

I doubt there is a man here who gets the praise I spew from my mouth to my husband... I am ever so thankful for him. 




> After sex *YOU* cuddle in to *HIM*. "You were wonderful tonight."


 I say ALOT more than that ,and it is alot hotter too! He is not missing my exhileration by any means.  



> Eventually you can begin to subtly slip in suggestions. "Oh baby, just a little to the right." "Oh right there, that's the spot, harder, harder." Whatever.


 I tell him to "plow me", I am not shy any more. 



> Soon he will know what you like and will have confidence to take charge in the bedroom. Of course this all depends on whether the woman actually cares enough to try.


 I am not complaining about him NOW... he could be more aggressive but he is not going to change who he is. Why is it so hard for others to believe we are all different... he is never going to fit the mold of an Alpha AFEH, and I am never going to fit the mold of what his wife was....being totally receptive 100% of the time. 

My husband is turned on by aggressive women, I did a thread on it ! http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/11217-want-hear-men-who-prefer-dominant-women-bed.html

So I ask... why should I downplay who I am ? This floats his boat !


----------



## Mr Wolf

SimplyAmorous said:


> It is hard to describe , *when he touched me, if it hurt, I hesitated to tell him *, I might move instead, didn't want to hurt his feelings..... so retarded ...believe me...I KNOW !!!!!


SA, thanks for sharing this point. The fact is I think this happens all to often in marriages. Something we the men do is actually unpleasant or hurts and rather than discussing it afterwards in a loving way, she will simply move, recoil or shut down. Not that we can pick up on most body language but we WILL pick up on this and take it as rejection. Thus the cycle begins. 

Also, I understand that women want their men to turn them on. Is that to say that women don't get in the mood when they are by themselves (i.e. not dating/sexual with anyone)? Do you only feel turned on/horny when you have a man wooing you and actively trying? If not, what turns you on without the male external stimulation? Can you recreate that inside your relationship? 

I ask because I find it hard to belive that a woman would never get in the mood if she were alone for an extended period? Maybe so... I am a man and am always in the mood so what do I know...


----------



## AFEH

deejov said:


> Mr. B,
> I agree and disagree.
> Oh my gosh I do not agree that a woman should watch porn to get horny so she can have sex with her husband. She wants and needs her husband to turn her on. Gives the impression of...
> "I'll just lay here naked. You go look at another naked man on dvd and when you are horny, come climb on top of me and do me. It's your job". Meaning... " I don't care what you need to turn you on. Just do it".
> 
> I do really agree that aggression and pursuing might work better.
> Why? Because it takes confidence. That's what is sexy. I cannot tell you how UNattractive it is to have a man stand in front of you and say "wanna have sex". Or have him touch your hips and say "wanna". It's a huge shutdown.
> I'm not talking about buying flowers and doing dishes. Not at all.
> 
> *I'm talking about flirting all day. Kissing her on the neck. If she pushes you away, try another spot. Hugging her from behind while she is doing the dishes. All those things you did when you were dating a girl and trying to get her into bed. You didn't stand 2 feet away and say "I'm horny". You got close, you touched, you kissed, she got turned on, and off you went. *
> 
> Yes, you might get rejected. But try again tomorrow. Ask her when you are kissing her neck if it turns her on. It's all about confidence.
> 
> And here's an important part. Don't do this stuff when kids are hungry, timing is bad, etc.
> 
> It's no different than a woman in her 40's trying to find a new way to get her older husband interested in sex. And it's HER job to do it! To find new ways to arouse him.


It’s a lot to do with erogenous zones.


One of my wife’s was her shoulders. Just caressing/massaging her shoulders got her going under almost any circumstances no matter where we were.


----------



## Sawney Beane

Beowulf said:


> Unless the husband is suffering from ED or has been rejected so often that he gives up I don't know a man alive that wouldn't be willing to strike the match.
> 
> What is the wife's responsibility in getting herself in the mood? Can't she make herself horny? Read an erotic novel. Look at porn. Experiment with sex toys. Whatever it takes.
> 
> Many women are so out of touch with their own sexuality that they cannot let the man know how to please them. Most husband's did not attend the Svengali School for Sexual Advancement. Ultimately women are responsible for their own sexual pleasure. And their own orgasms for that matter.
> 
> If a woman cannot or will not do the work necessary to find out what lights her fuse and communicate it to their husbands then they are doomed to a pitiful marriage because their husbands are going to feel rejected and resentful. Why choose to have a marriage like that?


What you're missing is that there are a group of women who don't want their husbands to strike the match - the match has to strike by itself, spontaneously, because otherwise it's "manipulative" or "degrading" or something like that. 

There are people who don't know what they want, and don't want anyone else to help them find out, and certainly don't want to find out on their own. They think they should find out by osmosis or magic or an act of god or something like that. It certainly shouldn't involve investigation or effort.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Mr Wolf said:


> SA, thanks for sharing this point. The fact is I think this happens all to often in marriages. Something we the men do is actually unpleasant or hurts and rather than discussing it afterwards in a loving way, she will simply move, recoil or shut down. Not that we can pick up on most body language but we WILL pick up on this and take it as rejection. Thus the cycle begins.


 I never shut down... once we were in the throws of forplay.... I WANTED THAT ORGASM....if he went before me, I would make him do it again.  Back then, he could ! Now a days...he can't. 

I really feel couples would do well to push themselves through the initial shyness of intimacy... and start speaking to their lovers .....before anything awkward has an opportunity to come up....something like ...."*what feels better.... this..or this*?" Engage them to express what pleases them....make it interesting....how wonderful to have a lover trying to discover what arouses us....as anything else, it all starts with opening our mouths. (you could take that a couple ways). 

Even now, I still ask him & try new things....I WANT his experience to be the most "mind blowing" it can possibly be... he is a quiet man, he is not going to speak up, so me being the more vocal.... I need to pull these things out of him.... (like men likely need to do with women).... I am always aiming to UP my sexual technique... but does he do that? Not really... it is like pulling teeth to get him to ask me a question...but then again.... I shouldn't jump on him...as I pretty much let him know what I want - and he aims to please as well. So he doesn't really have anything to ask me ! He did try something new a few weeks ago....I praised him to the high heavens - I loved it ! 

For all of us...push through the shyness....try new things, inquire along the way....shake it up..... this only speaks of our insatiable desire to be the Best lover we can be......we all want a partner like that ! 



> Also, I understand that women want their men to turn them on. Is that to say that women don't get in the mood when they are by themselves (i.e. not dating/sexual with anyone)? Do you only feel turned on/horny when you have a man wooing you and actively trying? If not, what turns you on without the male external stimulation? Can you recreate that inside your relationship?


 If you are asking me these questions ... ha ha ...I am the wrong woman, I am high drive & just thinking about it....I want to be enraptured in it. When I was excessively high drive, the flirting & seduction just flowed out of me, this has past, but much has remained... now we just want to arouse it every night. 

In our past, another story.... I had too many worries on my mind, I was embarrassed for my own husband to see me naked, I wanted the lights out , under the covers. I had issues ! 



> I ask because I find it hard to belive that a woman would never get in the mood if she were alone for an extended period? Maybe so... I am a man and am always in the mood so what do I know...


 I would say this answer solely depends on a woman's sex drive (how much TEST she has )....Even for me (in my repressed days)....I had a VERY HEALTHY SEX DRIVE (even though I was ashamed of it before we married) Been masterbating since I was 12 ish -you think I would tell a soul that, It would be the 1 thing in my life I would have outright lied about & turned as red as a lobster if anyone asked me . Noone ever did. 

As for me....if I didn't get it after so many days (a week my limit)...I would chase my husband down ....I had to have it !! It was like it would "build" within me, I was RIPE for the most pleasurable sensation on this side of living. Nothing can compare after you have waited so many days. 

Also ...in the middle of the night, I would get horny too. And Pregnancy, Oh my, no wonder he didn't care how many kids we had ! If I seen a hot R rated skin on skin romance scene -he got sex that night ... WHen reading a romance, when I got to the pages of the man lustfully taking the woman....the juices would be flowing within seconds. Crazy. It really didn't take too much to get me going, even then.


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## Catherine602

Beowulf said:


> I really wanted my wife to post here using her own account but she said I should say this for her.
> 
> In marriage you are often tired, kids drive you crazy, work is a hassle, the car broke, gas prices are up, her mother is a b!tch, etc etc etc
> 
> She says there are many times when she doesn't start out feeling that she wants sex. But she knows how important it is to me and she knows that I satisfy her needs all the time. So she never says no to sex unless she is legitimately sick. She says that most of the time after we get started she *GETS* in the mood and always enjoys it. So she wanted me to post and say that these women who are looking for their fuse to always be lit need to either light it themselves or at least allow the man to strike the match and see if it catches.


This is exactly it. 

LD does not mean no sexual desire. It means no spontaneous or conscious desire. It is there but needs to be uncovered. I think your wife is wise. I try to figure out why LD wives will not work with husbands to help them to uncover desire. I think it is lack of understanding by women and men about the nature of female sexuality. When life gets busy, sex gets pushed further back in the mind of many women. 

I am suprised at how much more responsibility I have for keeping up mentally with family things beyond chores and childcare. Who keeps up with birthdays, anneeversarries, gift, drs appointments, meds, how long it has been since we visited auntie and on and on. Not my husband, me. This is true for many women, we have responsibilities that are mentally taxing that men don't seem to worry about. Add to that any disparity in in chores and you have an overworked and worried spouse. 

I think the worry and planning and not wanting to forget anything is what is most taxing and all other things seem to fade into the background. That may be why some woman stop thinking about sex. It is not the chores it the burden of responsibility for the small and seemingly mundane things that keep a family healthy and maintaining the important social connections vital to the family unit. 

The repugnant (to me)" just do it" advice is both right and wrong. It seems to mean that a woman should allow herself to be penetrated by her husband with no regard for the fact that he is using her parts. That sounds awful. I think what the message really is "just allow the man you love and who loves you to help to relax and get in touch with your desire" then you will want to do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sawney Beane

Catherine602 said:


> This is exactly it.
> 
> I think what the message really is "just allow the man you love and who loves you to help to relax and get in touch with your desire" then you will want to do it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now THIS really is exactly it. You need to bottle this.:smthumbup:


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## Catherine602

Sawney Beane said:


> What you're missing is that there are a group of women who don't want their husbands to strike the match - the match has to strike by itself, spontaneously, because otherwise it's "manipulative" or "degrading" or something like that.
> 
> There are people who don't know what they want, and don't want anyone else to help them find out, and certainly don't want to find out on their own. They think they should find out by osmosis or magic or an act of god or something like that. It certainly shouldn't involve investigation or effort.


No that is plain ignorance and stupidity. Another example of the dysfunctional dynamics in relationships between men and woman in this period of social change. Of course woman should not have to do what they don't want to do. But with the busyness of life and the perpensity for woman more than men to push sex to tge back burner, the human race will be extinct in 200 yrs if you wait for spontaneous desire from busy women. 

I think informed women are realizing that the culprit is the inability to turn off worry. Men are a wonderful source of help relax, forget the cares of the day and find time to bond. It does take knowledge. For men to realize understand what is going on and to be persistent and confident. If the attitude is that spontaneous desire is a prerequisite, the pitfalls of such an approach should be explored. 

I think men should take the leadership role in working with his wife to get her relaxed and aroused. The first agreement should be that, for most women, spontaneous desire is not frequent but desire can be coaxed. The second agreement should be to allow the normal process of coaxing to happen. It just a part of normal relationship dynamics in a busy life that differentially effects men and women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

YES

I would say my W told me this almost verbatim during year one of our marriage. I accepted it as true and never looked back since it seemed to accurately describe her behavior. 

That said I am realizing more and more that a line I picked up from an Elmore Leonard book almost 20 years ago really, really is true. 

There is no bright line separating what happens in bed and out of bed. 

In the book the "main" characters are this couple who really love each other. He is about to leave to do something dangerous and she says "I'm sorry we didn't have time to make love this morning" and he casually looks over at her and replies "baby, I'm always making love to you". 

That's a great line. And when I am feeling that way, I use it because it's true. 





Catherine602 said:


> This is exactly it.
> 
> LD does not mean no sexual desire. It means no spontaneous or conscious desire. It is there but needs to be uncovered. I think your wife is wise. I try to figure out why LD wives will not work with husbands to help them to uncover desire. I think it is lack of understanding by women and men about the nature of female sexuality. When life gets busy, sex gets pushed further back in the mind of many women.
> 
> I am suprised at how much more responsibility I have for keeping up mentally with family things beyond chores and childcare. Who keeps up with birthdays, anneeversarries, gift, drs appointments, meds, how long it has been since we visited auntie and on and on. Not my husband, me. This is true for many women, we have responsibilities that are mentally taxing that men don't seem to worry about. Add to that any disparity in in chores and you have an overworked and worried spouse.
> 
> I think the worry and planning and not wanting to forget anything is what is most taxing and all other things seem to fade into the background. That may be why some woman stop thinking about sex. It is not the chores it the burden of responsibility for the small and seemingly mundane things that keep a family healthy and maintaining the important social connections vital to the family unit.
> 
> The repugnant (to me)" just do it" advice is both right and wrong. It seems to mean that a woman should allow herself to be penetrated by her husband with no regard for the fact that he is using her parts. That sounds awful. I think what the message really is "just allow the man you love and who loves you to help to relax and get in touch with your desire" then you will want to do it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

SimplyAmorous said:


> I also feel people should *NEVER* jump right into sex, but take the time to get to know one another...Please take a moment & read my thoughts on *#1 *and *#6* here (my thoughts on the sexual )... THIS is what I will be teaching all of my children in dating...what is feel is vital to get a handle on , avoiding disaster & misery after the vows...
> 
> I would be curious of your thoughts Catherine, if you disagree with any of it, please do post on my thread... (I love a little debate too!)
> 
> This is my masterpeice thread really ... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...ility-b4-vows-beyond-marital-harmony-joy.html
> 
> It would be more foolish if a Man KNEW he wanted this in his marriage...and married a woman who never would...it would cause massive resentment in the man ...or he would start fighting/judging her for not being like other women, feeling he is missing out. Again it would = suffering in the man, and he would bring suffering to the woman who wanted no part of it....enter the grand canyon gulf, the beginning of many problems.
> 
> That gift lie dormant in my marriage for 19 long yrs...when I finally came into being the loving wife I should have been.... I can not tell you how THIS uplifted my husband's spirits.... that I wanted him in every way, that I craved him, I wanted to "make love" to him with my mouth. There was an older thread in the sex section... about men who put BJ's high on the pedestal of importance.... women feel it is rediculous (it was very obvious by their posts, jumping all over the men for being shallow)... they take great offense to this...
> 
> Well.... I asked my own husband how he felt that night ....surprise surprise...it was HIGH on his list as well, he is no different than any other man..... was in his top 3 even. It is a huge deal to a man.
> 
> It is near indescribable what this does for them, that we, their wives, want to tear their clothes off and devour them, it is very passionate, nothing is more intimate . To have your wife NOT wanting to be there...a man "feels" this......it destroys it all....reduces it to ashes.
> 
> Why do women downplay this. I don't get it. We want them to listen to us... why are we not listening to them... their hearts on this- a man loves pleasure -that is just LIFE.... all women see is a dirty old man, a man who wants porn sex. I don't see that at all. At least not with my husband.
> 
> Even though I can't even get off when he gives me "oral"...(simply forplay for us)... if my husband didn't desire me in this way, I would be very very sad, I would even feel like something was wrong with me.... I NEED that from my husband... Men feel the same. It is a "gift" of love, a gift of pleasure.
> 
> 
> 
> This could easily describe a church full of repressed women.... great hearts, delicious cooks, Fantastic Mothers even, a love of community, but in the bedroom.... this by no means = a woman who passionately desires to please with enthusiam, and be open to sexual variety & newness.
> 
> If she has little interest in educating herself about how to  Tickle his pickle (book) ...to be that Better lover...feeling..."why is that important?".... some willingness to get inside the psyche of her man, recognizing if she has hang ups... she is going to overcome if it kills her... with a healthy attitude....I'd say a man would be taking a RISK , no guarentees she will ever enjoy going down on him.
> 
> I so agree with you on all that you bring to this forum on this issue, you pound it time & time again. It is ROOT of the problem. It is also an *attitude*.


SA you are awesome simply put. So thought provoking. I did not think of some of the things you mentioned. The church lady thing scares the hell out of me. It would kill me if my som married the wrong woman! Same for my daughter with the wrong man. I don't think I could stand it. 

But anywhooo I will read and post the link you included. I have to think about this so that if my husband and I can have any influence we can at lest try.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

Lionelhutz said:


> I agree with SA, I don't think it is necessarily foolish.
> 
> The other issues you mentioned are important but I value persistent behaviour patterns far more than what people say about themselves. I would not marry a woman who did not like to give BJs and I don't obsess over them like some men do.
> 
> Why? It is simply a matter of probability. People change so there are no guarantees not matter what your selection criterion are, but it seems that for a whole list of reasons, the long term sexual health of the marriage and thus the strength of the marriage as a whole is likely to be far stronger with a woman who likes to give BJs than with a woman who found it gross, or even worse, demeaning.


I didn't mean foolish to want a partner who likes to give. But to base ones choice of a mate based on what they are willing to do in the dating stage. Men and women stop doing many things after marriage. We hear the bj thing all the time but there are many things that stop after the wedding. These changes add to the dynamic and affects the mental state of both partners.

I wonder how many men inadvertantly make thier wives feel marginalized in their lives after they marry. A woman goes from be a sought after prize to - competing with a TV, print or the interenet for his attention. Or how many will talk on the mobile while having dinner out, spending time at a bar with buddies during the week and watching and playing sports all weekend. 

I am sure this has happened to some degree in all marriages. You settle into a comfortable routine and your partner is always there so no need to worry. Both men and woman do it. You have to make a constant effort to remember that this person who it there all of the time is not a given. He or she is very important and should be treated that way. 

To take the women point of view again - if her husband slowly falls into a slovenly domestic partner, TV sports fanatic,and weekend hobbyist, he has to expect some changes in his wife's attitude towards him. And it goes the other way as well,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sawney Beane

Catherine602 said:


> I didn't mean foolish to want a partner who likes to give. But to base ones choice of a mate based on what they are willing to do in the dating stage.


To be honest, what other evidence base do you expect people to have? They can't know what the other person is or is not going to do or change into once married, so what are they supposed to base their choice on?


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## Sawney Beane

Catherine602 said:


> No that is plain ignorance and stupidity. Another example of the dysfunctional dynamics in relationships between men and woman in this period of social change.


Just because it's ignorant and stupid doesn't mean people won't continue to do and think it. For a lot of people, ignorance is bliss. Doing otherwise would force them to confront that they have a responsibility to actually DO something.



> I think informed women are realizing that the culprit is the inability to turn off worry. Men are a wonderful source of help relax, forget the cares of the day and find time to bond. It does take knowledge. For men to realize understand what is going on and to be persistent and confident. If the attitude is that spontaneous desire is a prerequisite, the pitfalls of such an approach should be explored.


You seem to pre-assume that this sort of exploration could happen in a neutral way. I think it far more likely to be perceived as an attack.



> I think men should take the leadership role in working with his wife to get her relaxed and aroused.


You can only lead people who are prepared to be led. When I was a recruit in the Army many years ago, roughly half of each intake of recruits failed to complete their training. Of these, about half left for physical reasons (injuries and bad knees mostly), the other half because they didn't have the right attitude. A lot of them could not make themselves give up their autonomy and so follow someone elses' lead. For some, it was that if someone was leading them, they were demonstrating weakness or immaturity. For others they didn't have the faith to take the risk of letting someone else lead them, that unless they took the decisions they weren't being true to themselves. You have to be willing to be led.



> The first agreement should be that, for most women, spontaneous desire is not frequent but desire can be coaxed. The second agreement should be to allow the normal process of coaxing to happen. It just a part of normal relationship dynamics in a busy life that differentially effects men and women.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're right, but it doesn't square with the idea of a modern, autonomous, self-reliant person who achieves everything from within themself. What you are saying would be widely interpreted by a lot of women as indicating that their sexuality is not their own. How well do you think this will fly?


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## Lionelhutz

Catherine, you make a valid point but I think we may be talking slightly past each other.

You seem to be talking about men making themselves attractive to their spouse. I couldn't agree more. 

But when talking about BJs in particular, when I hear a woman say she finds giving a BJ demeaning I think there are two options: there is a problem in the relationship as a whole and she feels the need to fight for respect, or she has issues with sex.

If I think the relationship is good I simply i can't relate to her way of thinking and would conclude that we aren't sexually compatible. 

For me the act itself is not as important as it is an indicator of how she thinks about sex.

However, I should note, that I have never asked or even hinted about wanting a BJ and I think it is not merely wrong but self-defeating to pressure a woman to do so. That is where the "bait and switch' problem can arise.


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## MEM2020

SB and Catherine,

Ultimately this stuff usually comes down to commitment because if my partner is committed I can give them a book to read and they can hear from a "specialist author" that:
- They are normal
- They have important choices to make AND
- While bad choices don't necessarily equal divorce, they almost certainly will equal a bad marriage. 

If your spouse is not even willing to read a book on a topic that is core to you and that relates to a fracture point in your marriage, than they either:
- don't care about the marriage or
- don't believe their partner has the resolve to leave them even when they are being very selfish/unloving

There is a guy who has a thread going now. For 17 years his wife almost never had sex with him. They discussed separation, and when she realized he had accepted the end of the marriage and was about to leave, suddenly she couldn't keep her hands off him. 

You want my guess, he would have gotten the same result at the end of year 1 of the marriage. Sixteen more years of accepting bad behavior got him 16 years more bad behavior.



Sawney Beane said:


> Just because it's ignorant and stupid doesn't mean people won't continue to do and think it. For a lot of people, ignorance is bliss. Doing otherwise would force them to confront that they have a responsibility to actually DO something.
> 
> 
> You seem to pre-assume that this sort of exploration could happen in a neutral way. I think it far more likely to be perceived as an attack.
> 
> 
> 
> You can only lead people who are prepared to be led. When I was a recruit in the Army many years ago, roughly half of each intake of recruits failed to complete their training. Of these, about half left for physical reasons (injuries and bad knees mostly), the other half because they didn't have the right attitude. A lot of them could not make themselves give up their autonomy and so follow someone elses' lead. For some, it was that if someone was leading them, they were demonstrating weakness or immaturity. For others they didn't have the faith to take the risk of letting someone else lead them, that unless they took the decisions they weren't being true to themselves. You have to be willing to be led.
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, but it doesn't square with the idea of a modern, autonomous, self-reliant person who achieves everything from within themself. What you are saying would be widely interpreted by a lot of women as indicating that their sexuality is not their own. How well do you think this will fly?


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## Beowulf

deejov said:


> Mr. B,
> I agree and disagree.
> Oh my gosh I do not agree that a woman should watch porn to get horny so she can have sex with her husband. She wants and needs her husband to turn her on. Gives the impression of...
> "I'll just lay here naked. You go look at another naked man on dvd and when you are horny, come climb on top of me and do me. It's your job". Meaning... " I don't care what you need to turn you on. Just do it".
> 
> *If a husband is not getting sex of any kind and his wife needs to stimulate herself in some way in order to break the downward spiral I don't think he would mind much.*
> 
> I do really agree that aggression and pursuing might work better.
> Why? Because it takes confidence. That's what is sexy. I cannot tell you how UNattractive it is to have a man stand in front of you and say "wanna have sex". Or have him touch your hips and say "wanna". It's a huge shutdown.
> I'm not talking about buying flowers and doing dishes. Not at all.
> 
> *Completely agree but if he has been rejected on many occasions he may not know how to initiate sex. Walking on eggshells is not foreplay.*
> 
> I'm talking about flirting all day. Kissing her on the neck. If she pushes you away, try another spot. Hugging her from behind while she is doing the dishes. All those things you did when you were dating a girl and trying to get her into bed. You didn't stand 2 feet away and say "I'm horny". You got close, you touched, you kissed, she got turned on, and off you went.
> 
> *Again, if a man is constantly rejected he may give up because he doesn't know what works. The biggest thing is communication and I think many times that is what is lacking.*
> 
> Yes, you might get rejected. But try again tomorrow. Ask her when you are kissing her neck if it turns her on. It's all about confidence.
> 
> *I've never asked for sex and my wife has never refused. If one of us is sick we communicate that long before we go to bed. As for outside the bedroom foreplay...I do that all the time and I watch my wife's reactions. She not only tells me what works but shows me with her body language. But frankly when you are into the other person I'm not sure there is anything that doesn't work.*
> 
> And here's an important part. Don't do this stuff when kids are hungry, timing is bad, etc.
> 
> *I did and do. I actually find it enjoyable to be a bit of the rogue and tease her especially when it's not a good time. I just give her my bad boy smile.*
> 
> It's no different than a woman in her 40's trying to find a new way to get her older husband interested in sex. And it's HER job to do it! To find new ways to arouse him.
> 
> *If a man is having problems getting interested in sex after 40 it's his responsibility to get it seen to. They might try things as a couple to stimulate things but imo it is definitely not her job to do it.*


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## Beowulf

SimplyAmorous said:


> So I ask... why should I downplay who I am ? This floats his boat !


Then it sounds to me that you have both settled on a dynamic that works for you. If he is happy with things and you are happy with things then I say :smthumbup:


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## Halien

MEM11363 said:


> YES
> 
> I would say my W told me this almost verbatim during year one of our marriage. I accepted it as true and never looked back since it seemed to accurately describe her behavior.
> 
> That said I am realizing more and more that a line I picked up from an Elmore Leonard book almost 20 years ago really, really is true.
> 
> There is no bright line separating what happens in bed and out of bed.
> 
> In the book the "main" characters are this couple who really love each other. He is about to leave to do something dangerous and she says "I'm sorry we didn't have time to make love this morning" and he casually looks over at her and replies "baby, I'm always making love to you".
> 
> That's a great line. And when I am feeling that way, I use it because it's true.


Mem,

I also remember a similar line from another book years ago, and its one that my wife and I hang on to. A woman was talking to her adult daughter about her deceased husband, the daughter's father. She embarrassed the daughter when she said that their sex life was always incredible. The daughter, recovering from embarassment, said that she got the impression that they rarely had sex due to his health, and the mom said, "There was never a time where he wasn't making love to me."

I do think that these kinds of discussions in these threads often simplify the reasons behind a woman pulling away from a strong intimate life. I agree that some can be the simple case of a nice guy whose wife just doesn't appreciate his need for physical bonding. The reasons can be also just as much non-sexual as sexual. There can be broken dreams, disillusionment, along with the realization that a woman's husband will see the sexual relationship only in physical terms. She can really wish for the type of sexual relationship that feels continual, almost tantric, and thinks he isn't capable of any more than a series of discrete physical acts.


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## Tall Average Guy

> And here's an important part. Don't do this stuff when kids are hungry, timing is bad, etc.
> 
> *I did and do. I actually find it enjoyable to be a bit of the rogue and tease her especially when it's not a good time. I just give her my bad boy smile.*


I find this works very well, provided that I make the move with a clear expectation and understanding that nothing will happen at that time. Happened last Friday. She was in the kitchen preparing dinner and the kids were playing in the next room, though they kept popping in to ask when dinner would ready. I start caressing her and kissing her neck, and she lightly slapped my hand away and told me not now. I ****ed my head and said she could not blame me for trying. She laughed and called me a horny old man with big smile on her face. We both had a big smile on our face when we finally fell asleep that night.

I knew nothing was going to happen right then, and she really did as well. But I was not expecting anything to happen, I just wanted to let her know how attractive I found her.


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## Beowulf

Tall Average Guy said:


> I find this works very well, provided that I make the move with a clear expectation and understanding that nothing will happen at that time. Happened last Friday. She was in the kitchen preparing dinner and the kids were playing in the next room, though they kept popping in to ask when dinner would ready. I start caressing her and kissing her neck, and she lightly slapped my hand away and told me not now. I ****ed my head and said she could not blame me for trying. She laughed and called me a horny old man with big smile on her face. We both had a big smile on our face when we finally fell asleep that night.
> 
> I knew nothing was going to happen right then, and she really did as well. But I was not expecting anything to happen, I just wanted to let her know how attractive I found her.


Exactly, like someone else said foreplay begins outside the bedroom.


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## mr.miketastic

You can waste 10 books of matches trying to light her fire, but if she doesn't want to be stoked there's nothing else you can do. It is a 50/50 split. BOTH are effing responsible, so expecting one person to do all the heavy lifting is BS. I would appreciate my SO telling me she doesn't like sex with me WWWAAAAYYYYY more than just acting like a woman shaped hunk of tepid jello. At the very least I could make an informed decision on whether I should stay around or not. I absolutely loathe bait-and-switch and people who do that in a marriage should be shot.


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## Sawney Beane

MEM11363 said:


> There is a guy who has a thread going now. For 17 years his wife almost never had sex with him. They discussed separation, and when she realized he had accepted the end of the marriage and was about to leave, suddenly she couldn't keep her hands off him.
> 
> You want my guess, he would have gotten the same result at the end of year 1 of the marriage. Sixteen more years of accepting bad behavior got him 16 years more bad behavior.


Mem, I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I've had people work for me who only buckled down to what was needed of them under the threat of being sacked. The threat of losing their job meant they suddenly "got it". Then when most of them left under their own steam later, they all cheerfully admitted they hated the job and only did it because the alternative was worse.

You can't threaten somebody into liking something.


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## Beowulf

Pardon me for saying this but "she doesn't like sex" is just bullsh!t. If she is human she likes sex. Maybe there are abuse issues that complicate her enjoyment of sex. Maybe she has resentment that needs to be let go before she can enjoy sex. Maybe she just doesn't like sex with you? I'm sorry but I'll say it again. If you are willing to stay in a relationship that doesn't include sex then you get what you have coming to you. I'm sorry if that is too harsh for anyone but it's how I feel.


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## Lionelhutz

Beowulf said:


> Pardon me for saying this but "she doesn't like sex" is just bullsh!t. If she is human she likes sex. Maybe there are abuse issues that complicate her enjoyment of sex. Maybe she has resentment that needs to be let go before she can enjoy sex. Maybe she just doesn't like sex with you? I'm sorry but I'll say it again. If you are willing to stay in a relationship that doesn't include sex then you get what you have coming to you. I'm sorry if that is too harsh for anyone but it's how I feel.


It's not harsh, just clearly wrong. There are simply some people who don't like or need sex regardless of their relationship status. 

These people can be single, in which case there are certainly no "resentment" issue to work out. Such people aren't likely to masturbate and don't feel they are missing out on anything. 

Just to make it more complicated some people did like sex for a period of time and then stopped liking it. Some may be hiding resentment issues, but many simply don't know why they feel the way they do. Some can enjoy sex in the sense of having an orgasm but feel no desire to have one.


----------



## Catherine602

MEM that's what I meat when I said the evaluation qualities besides a willingness to give during the heady days of the honeymoon period. 

That is the reason I think that you need to date at lest two yrs before deciding to commit. By that time you get to see the potential mate in enough different situations to make a decent assessment. 

Some men are mesmerized by good sex but it is a constant that sex changes maybe better maybe not as good.

If a man allows himself to develop a bj blind spot, he may be blind to red flags that portend future problems. I still say it is foolish to put that first or even second on ones list not foolish to include it though. 

I realize it is not an exact science but it may be more reliable than simply relying on whether she gives during the honeymoon period. 

When that wears off, then the force of ones desire to adjust, learn, take a chance and honor commitments takes hold.

If I was judged by my husband on the basis of my willingness to be sexually open before I got married, he would not have married me. 

He did say that he saw qualities that he valued - curiosity, I was good to my family despite having a bad childhood, I was compassionate, I loved pleasing him, I was an independent thinker and most of all, I trusted him. 

I hope that is all true but he may see me with eyes of love.


----------



## norajane

Beowulf said:


> Pardon me for saying this but "she doesn't like sex" is just bullsh!t. If she is human she likes sex. Maybe there are abuse issues that complicate her enjoyment of sex. Maybe she has resentment that needs to be let go before she can enjoy sex. *Maybe she just doesn't like sex with you?* I'm sorry but I'll say it again. If you are willing to stay in a relationship that doesn't include sex then you get what you have coming to you. I'm sorry if that is too harsh for anyone but it's how I feel.


I have to agree with this, for the most part. I'm surprised this isn't suggested more often in the "lack of sex" threads - maybe the not-wanting-sex spouse is not attracted/doesn't enjoy sex with the spouse that wants sex. Maybe the chemistry that was so hot and bright during the earlier phases of the relationship has dimmed or died, and the not-wanting-sex spouse doesn't know how to re-light it so can't give any real suggestions.

Because, if you think about it, back when the couple was first dating and the sex was hot, was it really the case that all her emotional needs were being met and that they were totally in sync with each other emotionally and intellectually? Or was it that the sex was good and plentiful because both were hot for each other because the relationship was new and they had that "chemistry" that made everything exciting including sex?

What would a husband do if his wife said she just wasn't into him anymore like she used to be, and that's why she doesn't much sex with him? How does a couple "work through" that scenario - they both love each other and respect each other and want to stay together, _but she's not hot for him anymore and isn't excited about him like when they were dating_ so isn't interested in sex with him?


----------



## KanDo

lovesherman said:


> I agree with Enchantment's point that because most of the people complaining about sexless marriages here are men, the only advice that can be given is for them to change the dynamic in their relationship. We don't have the wife's point of view, so we cannot give her any advice. You can only change yourself.
> 
> The other point that I would make is that many women do not understand the male sex drive. They do not realize that it is not only physical, but an emotional connection that the man makes with his wife during sex. It is up to the husband to communicate this fact to his wife.


I disagree with the idea the only advice that can be given is change the dynamic of the relationship. *They can get out of the relationship*. I can not believe the men who have stayed in sexless marriages for years!. Grow a few and kick the poor excuse for a woman to the curb! Sex is a part of the marriage contract. If the relationship is so broken that you aren't having sex. GET OUT! There are plenty of wonderful women seeking loving relationships with men who stand up for themselves and want a committed relationship-- in all it's dimensions

Just my humble opinion


----------



## Catherine602

mr.miketastic said:


> You can waste 10 books of matches trying to light her fire, but if she doesn't want to be stoked there's nothing else you can do. It is a 50/50 split. BOTH are effing responsible, so expecting one person to do all the heavy lifting is BS. I would appreciate my SO telling me she doesn't like sex with me WWWAAAAYYYYY more than just acting like a woman shaped hunk of tepid jello. At the very least I could make an informed decision on whether I should stay around or not. I absolutely loathe bait-and-switch and people who do that in a marriage should be shot.


Don't read if you are in a bad mood. 

Sorry mr.mike, I am using your post as a whipping boy but it is not directed to you per se because I don't know your story. 

:soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox:

I don't know if you are referring to my post about men warming their LD partner up. If so what do you suggest? 

I don't get it. If it works why protest that one person is doing all the work? You want to be right about the 50/50 thing or successful? 

If most of the other elements of a satisfying sexual relationship is there, why obsess over the few things that are missing? 

I hope my husband does not resent me. I don't know what else to do if he does and I am afraid to ask. 

After I get going I will do just about anything, that has got to mean something. If my husband greeted me with unhappiness frustration and anger it would not be good. 

I would be tense and nervous and resent him. I would also stop trusting him and feeling safe. then I would want to avoid the whole thing 

Can you see that any negativity around sex inhibits your partner? How can one be trusting and open with a a man who gets frustrated when things are not exactly as he thinks it should be? His partner associates negativity with sex. 

I think that patience and acceptance is the best was to go. Have faith that with the building of trust that your partner will emerge from her shell.

This is related but it is part and parcel of the problem with marital sex however, it is seldom acknowledged. 

Female sexuality is viewed in a negative light when it is controlled by the woman themselves. The imposition of standards that deny woman the right to enjoy what God gave us is a big problem. 

Let me ask - did you marry your wife on the basis of her being a good girl as in sexually repressed? 

Do you now or have you ever spoken negatively about woman who are sexually uninhibited? How many times do you say **** or other terms that are code for female sexuality = bad? 

If so, do you view that as a bait and switch too or as a male prerogative? If you committed to your wife because she took pains to deny herself sexual pleasure then you have some work to do to draw her out. 

You must accept that as a given based on your choice for a mate. 

It acceptable in this culture to rail against women who are perceived to be sexually uninhibited. BTW, what did you think about the most popular radio show host calling that poor young woman a ****?

If you like Rush and you think he's is right, then why do you expect your wife to share her sexual side with you? Does that make sense?

Men talk out of two sides of their mouths, generalization but tell me it is not true. 

Either you welcome female sexuality or you don't. You can't pick and chose. It does not work that way. The inconsistency hurts men and women. 

The so called bait and switch business and whining about it's "always the man's fault" makes a man seem weak and childish. 

The unacknowledged reality is that woman are inhibited because it is socially acceptable to rage against female sexuality. When you marry a good girl, you have to work to help her shed the negative influence of society. 

Obviously pretending it does not exist and if you are negative, that you don't think that way is putting your head in the sand and does not work. 

Be consistent, purge yourself of ALL negative attitudes towards women and sex, accept that you need to build trust.

Or you can whine and blame with the other men and live with the double standard in and out of your marriage. Your choice. 

:rant::rant:


----------



## chillymorn

Catherine602 said:


> Don't read if you are in a bad mood.
> 
> Sorry mr.mike, I am using your post as a whipping boy but it is not directed to you per se because I don't know your story.
> 
> :soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox:
> 
> I don't know if you are referring to my post about men warming their LD partner up. If so what do you suggest?
> 
> I don't get it. If it works why protest that one person is doing all the work? You want to be right about the 50/50 thing or successful?
> 
> If most of the other elements of a satisfying sexual relationship is there, why obsess over the few things that are missing?
> 
> I hope my husband does not resent me. I don't know what else to do if he does and I am afraid to ask.
> 
> After I get going I will do just about anything, that has got to mean something. If my husband greeted me with unhappiness frustration and anger it would not be good.
> 
> I would be tense and nervous and resent him. I would also stop trusting him and feeling safe. then I would want to avoid the whole thing
> 
> Can you see that any negativity around sex inhibits your partner? How can one be trusting and open with a a man who gets frustrated when things are not exactly as he thinks it should be? His partner associates negativity with sex.
> 
> I think that patience and acceptance is the best was to go. Have faith that with the building of trust that your partner will emerge from her shell.
> 
> This is related but it is part and parcel of the problem with marital sex however, it is seldom acknowledged.
> 
> Female sexuality is viewed in a negative light when it is controlled by the woman themselves. The imposition of standards that deny woman the right to enjoy what God gave us is a big problem.
> 
> Let me ask - did you marry your wife on the basis of her being a good girl as in sexually repressed?
> 
> Do you now or have you ever spoken negatively about woman who are sexually uninhibited? How many times do you say **** or other terms that are code for female sexuality = bad?
> 
> If so, do you view that as a bait and switch too or as a male prerogative? If you committed to your wife because she took pains to deny herself sexual pleasure then you have some work to do to draw her out.
> 
> You must accept that as a given based on your choice for a mate.
> 
> It acceptable in this culture to rail against women who are perceived to be sexually uninhibited. BTW, what did you think about the most popular radio show host calling that poor young woman a ****?
> 
> If you like Rush and you think he's is right, then why do you expect your wife to share her sexual side with you? Does that make sense?
> 
> Men talk out of two sides of their mouths, generalization but tell me it is not true.
> 
> Either you welcome female sexuality or you don't. You can't pick and chose. It does not work that way. The inconsistency hurts men and women.
> 
> The so called bait and switch business and whining about it's "always the man's fault" makes a man seem weak and childish.
> 
> The unacknowledged reality is that woman are inhibited because it is socially acceptable to rage against female sexuality. When you marry a good girl, you have to work to help her shed the negative influence of society.
> 
> Obviously pretending it does not exist and if you are negative, that you don't think that way is putting your head in the sand and does not work.
> 
> Be consistent, purge yourself of ALL negative attitudes towards women and sex, accept that you need to build trust.
> 
> Or you can whine and blame with the other men and live with the double standard in and out of your marriage. Your choice.
> 
> :rant::rant:


cathy,
while I agree with what you have outlined here I am also a realist and after efforts have been put forth like you outlined and it still seems like the same same then what?

I'll tell you.

the man gives up and moves on


----------



## Beowulf

Lionelhutz said:


> It's not harsh, just clearly wrong. There are simply some people who don't like or need sex regardless of their relationship status.
> 
> These people can be single, in which case there are certainly no "resentment" issue to work out. Such people aren't likely to masturbate and don't feel they are missing out on anything.
> 
> Just to make it more complicated some people did like sex for a period of time and then stopped liking it. Some may be hiding resentment issues, but many simply don't know why they feel the way they do. Some can enjoy sex in the sense of having an orgasm but feel no desire to have one.


Then how do you explain the many threads where you read "my wife/husband is having an affair. But they wouldn't have sex with me for years. They said they didn't even like sex!" I see it all the time here on TAM and on many other boards as well.

Sorry, but I think that given a good reason all these supposed celibate spouses would jump in bed with someone that makes the right spots tingle. It's just that they don't have that tingle for their current partner in the current situation.


----------



## Beowulf

mr.miketastic said:


> You can waste 10 books of matches trying to light her fire, but if she doesn't want to be stoked there's nothing else you can do. It is a 50/50 split. BOTH are effing responsible, so expecting one person to do all the heavy lifting is BS. I would appreciate my SO telling me she doesn't like sex with me WWWAAAAYYYYY more than just acting like a woman shaped hunk of tepid jello. At the very least I could make an informed decision on whether I should stay around or not. I absolutely loathe bait-and-switch and people who do that in a marriage should be shot.


Let's see. A woman shaped hunk of tepid jello or your right hand. I'll take the jello every damned time.

Don't you people read? Read Helen Fisher's Anatomy of Love. There are biological reasons why having even bad sex can lead to better sex. You have to start somewhere. I'm sorry but it sounds like resentment and stubbornness is getting in the way of sexual healing. That goes for both sides. If you can't lose the resentment and work toward a better relationship then you really should find a different partner and stop torturing the both of you.


----------



## Beowulf

chillymorn said:


> cathy,
> while I agree with what you have outlined here I am also a realist and after efforts have been put forth like you outlined and it still seems like the same same then what?
> 
> I'll tell you.
> 
> the man gives up and moves on


Sometimes when both parties have so much resentment built up that they simply can't find a way to release it moving on might be the best thing. For both of them.


----------



## Mr Wolf

Catherine602 said:


> Can you see that any negativity around sex inhibits your partner? How can one be trusting and open with a a man who gets frustrated when things are not exactly as he thinks it should be? His partner associates negativity with sex.


This goes both ways! Men feel the rejection in any number of ways... she pushes him away or turns her head when he tries to kiss her, she flinches, she doesn't respone in any way to anything he tries and then refuses to communicate about it, she ignores him. This breeds negativity around sex and the woman gets frustrated that things are not exactly like she thinks they should be and shuts down. She is frustrated that the man doesn't know how to lead her out of the sexual wilderness. Then on top of the rejection men are already feeling they are told to simply "be more confident, man up". 

If a man can push through his insecurities and be more confident in the face of these challenges then a woman can push through that which is uncomfortable for her.


----------



## Beowulf

Mr Wolf said:


> This goes both ways! Men feel the rejection in any number of ways... she pushes him away or turns her head when he tries to kiss her, she flinches, she doesn't respone in any way to anything he tries and then refuses to communicate about it, she ignors him. This breeds negativity around sex and women get frustrated that things are exactly like she thinks they should be and shut down. They are frustrated that the man doesn't know how to lead them out of the sexual wilderness. Then on top of the rejection men are already feeling they are told to simply "be more confident, man up".
> 
> If a man can push through his insecurities and be more confident in the face of these challenges then a woman can push through that which is uncomfortable for her.


Yes, but *he* is here seeking advice, *she* is not. We cannot tell him to make her do something. You can't make anyone do anything. You can only control what you do. And doing something is better than doing nothing. So make yourself more confident and feel better about yourself...*FOR YOU NOT HER*. At some point these guys need to decide if having a full and happy marriage is important to them. If it is and the spouse doesn't put any effort into solving the problem then the only solution may be to find another spouse.


----------



## Mr Wolf

Beowulf - Having confidence in general and having confidence to approach a situation in which you have experienced consistent and constant rejetion is two totally different things. 

I couldn't agree more though. In the vast majority of the situations I really believe the man should just leave. Hell, I wish I had so many years ago but I had honor and integrity and felt that if I could just change me or adapt to what she needed I could honor my vow. Never again! It will take equal effort over time for me to continue in that situation. If not, I'm out.

And for the record, I never had this issue while I was single and dating. The ONLY time the issue ever came up was after I made some sort of commitment to the women I was dating. Funny enough, when I called it quits with them the sex was even better than before. 

In many ways I tend to believe a lot of it is a power play where some women want to contol men and then hide behind the "sexuality" issues when he pushes back. This really does a disservice to the women who have legitimate sexuality issues that need to be addressed in a loving way with their mate.


----------



## Lionelhutz

Beowulf said:


> Then how do you explain the many threads where you read "my wife/husband is having an affair. But they wouldn't have sex with me for years. They said they didn't even like sex!" I see it all the time here on TAM and on many other boards as well.
> 
> .


I don't have to explain it because I didn't make an absolute statement, you did. There is no doubt that many spouses lose interest after an initial period of excitement as evidenced by some of the threads here along the lines of .....she has gained too much weight, he has turned into a slop etc.

But that is very far from saying it is the only cause or even the cause in most cases. 

It is well documented that there are some people who are consistently HD and people who are consistently LD regardless of relationship status. There is also the very common experience of many women who suddenly find themselves HD later in life when that has been no significant changes except hormonal.

I wasn't championing any particular cause except to say there isn't one.


----------



## Catherine602

chillymorn said:


> cathy,
> while I agree with what you have outlined here I am also a realist and after efforts have been put forth like you outlined and it still seems like the same same then what?
> 
> I'll tell you.
> 
> the man gives up and moves on


Chilly I know you are doing everything you can to help yourself and your wife. I really admire you for that. My comments are not really comprehensive, since rants being what theybare - venting through a small aperture . Not very inclusive of all facts I realize that. . 

Sometimes no matter what you do to persuade a person to treat you like a human being, it does not work.maybe there is an unrecognized or unacknowledged emotional issue or an acquired incompatibility. I admire commitment to pulling out all the stops to maintain the family. I don't feel that one should stay married at all cost. 

I don't know your wife but if she knows you are suffering and that you are working to reconnect to her then how can she stand to watch you twist in the wind? Is that love? Maybe you can ask her that. Does she love you enough to make you happy. If not then she will have to accept that you may not be able to stay in a relationship that causes you so much misery. 

If you have kids and tgey are at a vulnerable age, you need to consider that. However, if you are suffering too much then you may have to exit the marriage and carefully help your kids. I think the problems kids have with divorce can be greatly reduced if parents put them first in their lives.

Pursuing other relationships should take a back seat while stabilizing their lives I think. If both parents continue to put them first and organize their lives around caring for them, then I think they will naturally accept a new partner. They need to be sure that they will not be replaced. 

I don't think there is any dishonor to giving it your all and then considering the best route to relieving your suffering and caring for your kids. I know you will do what you must and succeed Chilly. I think you are a strong man who has had a difficult way to go. I wish you and Mrs. Chilly and your kids the very best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

Mr Wolf said:


> This goes both ways! Men feel the rejection in any number of ways... she pushes him away or turns her head when he tries to kiss her, she flinches, she doesn't respone in any way to anything he tries and then refuses to communicate about it, she ignors him. This breeds negativity around sex and women get frustrated that things are exactly like she thinks they should be and shut down. They are frustrated that the man doesn't know how to lead them out of the sexual wilderness. Then on top of the rejection men are already feeling they are told to simply "be more confident, man up".
> 
> If a man can push through his insecurities and be more confident in the face of these challenges then a woman can push through that which is uncomfortable for her.


I agree that male sexuality is viewed in a negative light and even feared. And you are right that men manage to get past the negativity and owning their sexuality and getting pleasure. However, do you think men support women doing the same? I dont think so, at lest not on a cultural level. Just reading the coments in the news about this s1ut thing will add credence to what i am saying. 

I can't read anymore because i am becoming angry. If you think i am the only woman who is getting the negative message guess again. Women may not express it but something happens deep inside. It is like a wound, we try to love men and accept them but we are assulted with the message that many of them dont seem to like us or love all of us. 

They seem to like the parts they can exploit for pleasure though. Please don't flame me or not hear what I am saying. These are suppositions not statement of fact. It is what any reasonable human being can assemble given the facts, right or wrong.

What is real and true I think is that when a man falls in love something switches, he loves all of the woman he selects. That part of maturition process. The cultural representation of male sexuality is the teenaged randy, self- centered type. That does not describe a man mature man who spends a small part of his life in that phase. 

That is the part many women have a hard time believing. When a woman says to her husband - "is that all you think about" or "you are using me for sex" can you understand where it comes from? 

What to do in personal relationships? Accept that these notions are generated from an warped depiction of male sexuality and avoid giving you beloved any reason to believe that you don't accept all of her and want her to accept herself. Maybe you think that is what you are doing but action speak louder than words. 

Be patient, accept the role of leadership on this without resentment. Don't take her words personally or at face value. What woman are asking when they say those things, is to be reassured that you love her with a mature and not a selfish compartmentilized love. 

That's how I see it anyway. These are all of the things I have learned by interacting with the ladies and gentlemen on this site. It took a long time and I am not finished yet but it happened. If it happened for me then it is probably happening for many woman who look for answers to a more fulfilling and happy relationship with their husbands. Not many post here but that does not mean they don't exist or that they are rare.


----------



## Sawney Beane

Beowulf said:


> Let's see. A woman shaped hunk of tepid jello or your right hand. I'll take the jello every damned time.
> 
> Don't you people read? Read Helen Fisher's Anatomy of Love. There are biological reasons why having even bad sex can lead to better sex. You have to start somewhere. I'm sorry but it sounds like resentment and stubbornness is getting in the way of sexual healing. That goes for both sides. If you can't lose the resentment and work toward a better relationship then you really should find a different partner and stop torturing the both of you.


Before you get yourself overpressured about people not reading, it's worth remembering that there is a world of difference between "can" and "will".


----------



## Sawney Beane

Catherine602 said:


> I don't know if you are referring to my post about men warming their LD partner up. If so what do you suggest?
> 
> I don't get it. If it works why protest that one person is doing all the work? You want to be right about the 50/50 thing or successful?


I don't read it as a protest against one person doing all the work if it works. I read it as a protest against one person doing all the work and it still doesn't go anywhere. These are two different things.


> If most of the other elements of a satisfying sexual relationship is there, why obsess over the few things that are missing?


Again, there's a big difference between "most of the other elements" and "virtually nothing".



> After I get going I will do just about anything, that has got to mean something. If my husband greeted me with unhappiness frustration and anger it would not be good.
> 
> I would be tense and nervous and resent him. I would also stop trusting him and feeling safe. then I would want to avoid the whole thing


What if you point-blank refuse to let him get you going, no matter how he approaches you? That you say "this is how I am, take it or leave it".



> Can you see that any negativity around sex inhibits your partner? How can one be trusting and open with a a man who gets frustrated when things are not exactly as he thinks it should be? His partner associates negativity with sex.


Again, there's a difference between what you are describing: "not exactly" what he would like is totally different to "not even vaguely similar". Also, to expect someone to be unfailingly positive in the face of constant unenthusiasm, rejection, or any discernible effort to change is at best disingenuous, and at worst playing the other person for a fool.



> I think that patience and acceptance is the best was to go. Have faith that with the building of trust that your partner will emerge from her shell.


This will work only if the other person is prepared to allow themselves to build trust. If they are not bothered about building trust around sex, you can be as patient as Jobe. All you will do is wait.



> The unacknowledged reality is that woman are inhibited because it is socially acceptable to rage against female sexuality. When you marry a good girl, you have to work to help her shed the negative influence of society.


Question: what is he meant to do if the woman does not WANT to shed the "negative influence"? There's a bloke been posting recently who seems to have this in spades. His wife doesn't want to shed her inhibitions, and not only doesn't want him to help her shed them, but actively fights to keep them. This is what is being asked. 

Simply, would you have expected your husband to go on showing endless patience and understanding if you have made no effort whatsoever to change?


----------



## Sawney Beane

Beowulf said:


> Then how do you explain the many threads where you read "my wife/husband is having an affair. But they wouldn't have sex with me for years. They said they didn't even like sex!" I see it all the time here on TAM and on many other boards as well.


There are many others where the partner isn't having sex with _*anyone*_, not even masturbating.


----------



## Sawney Beane

Catherine602 said:


> However, do you think men support women doing the same? I dont think so, at lest not on a cultural level.


This sounds like something to the effect of that no matter what an individual man does for one woman, it can't help because the "cultural level" beats his efforts. He, individually, cannot change "culture". He can do what he can. All the time here the mantra is "you can only change yourself". If this is true of one person not being able to change one other in a marriage, then is must hold true for one person changing the views of everyone else in "society".


----------



## Beowulf

Mr Wolf said:


> Beowulf - Having confidence in general and having confidence to approach a situation in which you have experienced consistent and constant rejetion is two totally different things.
> 
> I couldn't agree more though. In the vast majority of the situations I really believe the man should just leave. Hell, I wish I had so many years ago but I had honor and integrity and felt that if I could just change me or adapt to what she needed I could honor my vow. Never again! It will take equal effort over time for me to continue in that situation. If not, I'm out.
> 
> And for the record, I never had this issue while I was single and dating. The ONLY time the issue ever came up was after I made some sort of commitment to the women I was dating. Funny enough, when I called it quits with them the sex was even better than before.
> 
> In many ways I tend to believe a lot of it is a power play where some women want to contol men and then hide behind the "sexuality" issues when he pushes back. This really does a disservice to the women who have legitimate sexuality issues that need to be addressed in a loving way with their mate.


I completely agree with you here. It does take two people which is why I say if you have done everything in your power from your end that is really all you can do. At that point you have to make a judgement call and decide if staying in the relationship is an option.

And you are right, it really is a power play or in other terminology she is fitness testing. All women fitness test to a certain degree and most of the time they don't realize they're doing it. But because you are in love and want a good marriage, instead of bumping back or ignoring the B.S. you try to make her happy. Unfortunately that is the exact wrong thing to do. Because if you give in to obvious fitness testing she begins to lose respect and sees herself gaining power over you. Again, it's a biological mechanism because in her subconscious if she can push you around then you cannot protect her and her children. Therefore you have ceased to be a good mate.

Several years ago I found myself failing fitness tests and I could see the relationship changing and not in a good way. I could only see it because of the struggles we had 20 years ago. When I realized the problem I corrected it. I corrected myself. The relationship returned to the balanced harmonious dynamic that we had before. When you date you are somewhat subconsciously aware of these tests and pass them more easily. But when you are in a LTR you are more concerned with marital harmony and more likely to give in. Give in too many times and she considers you a poor mate and a poor mate doesn't deserve her goodies.


----------



## mr.miketastic

Let me state quite clearly...I am not Rush Limbaugh, nor do I agree with him. he is clearly a misogynist, I am most certainly not.
I stated before in another thread that I am done jumping through hoops. I have been VERY supportive and patient for a long time. it's not me being a nice guy, but it's me being strong for my family. I have 3 kids and a SAHM to take care of, and I don't have much room for BS. I have no one else to talk to about this, as my SO usually dodges or gets into a snit when I have tried many times in the past to discuss the issue. Talking is fvck1ng over now.
So I have to have some way to vent, and this seems like a good place to do. I thank you all for the advice, as some has done me some good at least. 
I have accepted that sex in my relationship is what it is. we get along very well in all other ways, but I hate feeling like I am forcing someone into being with me when they clearly are not into it. I am not some fumbling, bumbling insensitive man in bed., nor am I ham-handed about foreplay. My SO is a blame shifter, a procrastinator and is very very passive-aggressive. I was actually *****ed at for something I did in one of her dreams BTW. Yes, I have thought about asking her to leave my house (I will NOT leave the house I have worked for) but I don't have much time until our youngest is out so I will stick it out until he is off on his own, sell the house and then part ways if I can't help things improve. Funny how even here things are my fault. :scratchhead:


----------



## SimplyAmorous

This is not about condoning Men's Frustration into hurting thier wives, though if I was Mr Miketastic, I would want to raise the roof off my house -in the situation he finds himself in....but it is about "forgiving" each others faults -when it comes to sex issues...



> *Catherine602 said*: If most of the other elements of a satisfying sexual relationship is there, why obsess over the few things that are missing?


 What one may feel is satisfying may not be what the other feels ...it IS an issue. Unless you want your partner to "stuff" -cause it doesn't sound the option of showing frustration.....is allowed or he will grow to regret that very fast, and never do it again in your presence. I think even living with that -would be very difficult . Sorry, just being honest. 



> After I get going I will do just about anything, that has got to mean something. If my husband greeted me with unhappiness frustration and anger it would not be good.
> 
> I would be tense and nervous and resent him. I would also stop trusting him and feeling safe. then I would want to avoid the whole thing


 I am curious if your husband was EVER done this to you ? 

And if so....how was it resolved ? How long would you hold on to this? Is it even forgivable? What would he have to do to make this up to you? 



> Can you see that any negativity around sex inhibits your partner? How can one be trusting and open with a a man who gets frustrated when things are not exactly as he thinks it should be? His partner associates negativity with sex.
> 
> I think that patience and acceptance is the best was to go. Have faith that with the building of trust that your partner will emerge from her shell.


Catherine....every one of us have faults.... . we all get frustrated over different things.... SEX is a HUGE TRIGGER for men.... even for some women....*LIKE ME*.... I am going to air a little of my own dirty laundry here.... 

Hope you all won't judge me too much !!

I have gotten frustrated with my husband for not being aggressive enough ....a number of times.... I have said some "not so kind" things to him in the heat of the moment....I just feel he could step it up some. ....We fight.... then we make up (He tells me I fight to have make up sex )........God I love him, you know why.....He doesn't hold it against me. If he did, we'd be through.... I could never never never be married to someone who couldn't deal with a little heated fight, frustrated words... 

Do you never say anything out of your mouth to hurt your husband? Even if they are not words, it could be an attitude, us women surely have them! 

Walking on egg shells with a partner, and pushing down how we REALLY feel ...Depending on the personality.... I feel it could cause a growing silent RESENTMENT...if not let out in some manner.... 

If your husband is an ALPHA male like AFEH who wouldn't even want his wife to initiate , then you are perfectly matched, but if he is NOT like that, if he craves more from your end,* he desires that 50/50 deep within his soul *(my husband is like this -believe me!).... there is a chance he has "stuffed", he has wanted more but he knows he can't say anything to you , you will take it wrong & in immediate defense be angry that what you *give*, offer in receptive love, should be "satisfying enough". 

It just seems like a roadblock to me. In your mind... after all the emotional connection is flourishing, why does he need more at the onset, more kink.... variety. You don't feel that way- so how can he. 

But what if he does desire more ? I am assuming your answer is... so long as he talks to you in a loving manner, it is OK, but he is not allowed to get frustrated.....or just not show you. 

I have asked my husband, would he rather have me the way I was... I never said a bad word to him about his sexual technique in the past & he had to get me going maybe 75% of the time, if I wasn't initiating him. Or would he rather have me now... (not always sugar & spice & everything nice)....even with some fighting over "wanting more"...his answer...definitely now. * He understands it is not that I don't love him, I just get frustrated sometimes. * A high drive can do that to you. 


I am so happy I am not a man, because I seriously would never never never be able to deal with someone would couldn't forgive if I showed frustration in the bedroom. It happens, why can't wives forgive this --if the man tries to make up for it. None of us are perfect beings, we all have bad moments, weaknesses. But admittably... I've never been one to hold a fight against anyone though.....or words. 

You are perfectly matched with your husband if he feels the same, to never dare hurt a woman or criticize, just love her where she is at and allow his patience to take lead. Then you have nothing to worry about. 

I'm not saying it is right to go off & get frustrated on a regular basis and tear into your spouse (please do not misunderstand me).......but forgivable... YES. Just like the things we do.... and we hurt them...they need to forgive us. 

This is not like someone cheated. 

I think people need to bear with each other's weaknesses.... talk it out ..we can all make up for it ... I don't know, maybe me & my husband are weird, but I swear, nearly every fight we have, we learn something new about each other, and it helps us. It is not all bad ...I wish he had faught with me in the past, his stuffing was sooooo much worse, silent resentment blackens everything, it even reduced his sex drive.

I asked him on a bar of 1- 10, where his resentment was , he said a "5". He didn't talk to me saying he thought I would leave him , he didn't want to come off as needy or expecting too much. I asked him on a bar from 1-10, how his sex drive declined, he also said a "5". 

What a shame. I would have much preferred him to get angry with me, let me know how he was feeling, even if it stung me, I deserved it.


----------



## AFEH

Catherine602 said:


> I agree that male sexuality is viewed in a negative light and even feared. And you are right that men manage to get past the negativity and owning their sexuality and getting pleasure. However, do you think men support women doing the same? I dont think so, at lest not on a cultural level. Just reading the coments in the news about this s1ut thing will add credence to what i am saying.
> 
> I can't read anymore because i am becoming angry. If you think i am the only woman who is getting the negative message guess again. Women may not express it but something happens deep inside. *It is like a wound, we try to love men and accept them but we are assulted with the message that many of them dont seem to like us or love all of us. *
> 
> They seem to like the parts they can exploit for pleasure though. Please don't flame me or not hear what I am saying. These are suppositions not statement of fact. It is what any reasonable human being can assemble given the facts, right or wrong.
> 
> What is real and true I think is that when a man falls in love something switches, he loves all of the woman he selects. That part of maturition process. The cultural representation of male sexuality is the teenaged randy, self- centered type. That does not describe a man mature man who spends a small part of his life in that phase.
> 
> That is the part many women have a hard time believing. When a woman says to her husband - "is that all you think about" or "you are using me for sex" can you understand where it comes from?
> 
> What to do in personal relationships? Accept that these notions are generated from an warped depiction of male sexuality and avoid giving you beloved any reason to believe that you don't accept all of her and want her to accept herself. Maybe you think that is what you are doing but action speak louder than words.
> 
> Be patient, accept the role of leadership on this without resentment. Don't take her words personally or at face value. What woman are asking when they say those things, is to be reassured that you love her with a mature and not a selfish compartmentilized love.
> 
> That's how I see it anyway. These are all of the things I have learned by interacting with the ladies and gentlemen on this site. It took a long time and I am not finished yet but it happened. If it happened for me then it is probably happening for many woman who look for answers to a more fulfilling and happy relationship with their husbands. Not many post here but that does not mean they don't exist or that they are rare.


You make a very very big rod for your own back there. I wonder how long you will go on hitting yourself with it.


----------



## mr.miketastic

Catherine602 said:


> Don't read if you are in a bad mood.
> 
> Sorry mr.mike, I am using your post as a whipping boy but it is not directed to you per se because I don't know your story.
> 
> :soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox:
> 
> I don't know if you are referring to my post about men warming their LD partner up. If so what do you suggest? *I might suggest both parties be involved in making love instead of one dodging all attempts at warming up*
> 
> I don't get it. If it works why protest that one person is doing all the work? You want to be right about the 50/50 thing or successful? *It's not about success or failure but about 2 people bonding emotionally, spiritually and physically*
> 
> If most of the other elements of a satisfying sexual relationship is there, why obsess over the few things that are missing? *I am not looking to use her body as a masturbation tool. It would be nice for some mutual desire*
> 
> 
> After I get going I will do just about anything, that has got to mean something. If my husband greeted me with unhappiness frustration and anger it would not be good. I most definitely do not greet her with anger and frustration and unhappiness. * I greet her with a hug, a kiss and an " I love you" Which I mean. I have never gone a day in the last 20 years without that.*
> 
> 
> 
> Can you see that any negativity around sex inhibits your partner? How can one be trusting and open with a a man who gets frustrated when things are not exactly as he thinks it should be? His partner associates negativity with sex. *I might get frustrated, but I do not take it out on anyone but myself
> *
> 
> 
> Female sexuality is viewed in a negative light when it is controlled by the woman themselves. The imposition of standards that deny woman the right to enjoy what God gave us is a big problem. *I have imposed no standards, nor will I. If this is something in a more general sense about society, women are just as culpable as men at creating this standard generally speaking.*
> 
> Let me ask - did you marry your wife on the basis of her being a good girl as in sexually repressed? *No. She knew quite well going into this that I have a VERY high libido, and before we got married we were quite active sexually.*
> 
> Do you now or have you ever spoken negatively about woman who are sexually uninhibited? How many times do you say **** or other terms that are code for female sexuality = bad? *Never have. I like people who are uninhibited.*
> 
> If so, do you view that as a bait and switch too or as a male prerogative? If you committed to your wife because she took pains to deny herself sexual pleasure then you have some work to do to draw her out. *If she denies herself, she also denies the one who would give. Giving is equal with receiving, and not receiving is as bad as not giving.*
> 
> 
> 
> It acceptable in this culture to rail against women who are perceived to be sexually uninhibited. BTW, what did you think about the most popular radio show host calling that poor young woman a ****? * I am not sure where this has anything to do with my situation. Rush is an idiot.
> *
> If you like Rush and you think he's is right, then why do you expect your wife to share her sexual side with you? Does that make sense? * I am not like Rush nor do I like him. Where are you going here?*
> 
> Men talk out of two sides of their mouths, generalization but tell me it is not true. *Again, what does this have to do with anything? *
> 
> Either you welcome female sexuality or you don't. You can't pick and chose. It does not work that way. The inconsistency hurts men and women. * Umm, welcoming female sexuality is what I thought I was trying to do?*
> 
> The so called bait and switch business and whining about it's "always the man's fault" makes a man seem weak and childish. *Does it? Or is this your way of silencing someone who would try and point out BS? *
> 
> The unacknowledged reality is that woman are inhibited because it is socially acceptable to rage against female sexuality. When you marry a good girl, you have to work to help her shed the negative influence of society. * What the hell does this have to do with my situation? So you imply I have to fix society in order to have a mutually passionate relationship with my wife?*
> 
> 
> Be consistent, purge yourself of ALL negative attitudes towards women and sex, accept that you need to build trust. *WHAT!!??*
> 
> Or you can whine and blame with the other men and live with the double standard in and out of your marriage. Your choice. *What double-standard am I perpetuating? Really? Did you read what you wrote? *
> 
> :rant::rant:


:scratchhead:


----------



## Beowulf

mr.miketastic said:


> Let me state quite clearly...I am not Rush Limbaugh, nor do I agree with him. he is clearly a misogynist, I am most certainly not.
> I stated before in another thread that I am done jumping through hoops. I have been VERY supportive and patient for a long time. it's not me being a nice guy, but it's me being strong for my family. I have 3 kids and a SAHM to take care of, and I don't have much room for BS. I have no one else to talk to about this, as my SO usually dodges or gets into a snit when I have tried many times in the past to discuss the issue. Talking is fvck1ng over now.
> So I have to have some way to vent, and this seems like a good place to do. I thank you all for the advice, as some has done me some good at least.
> I have accepted that sex in my relationship is what it is. we get along very well in all other ways, but I hate feeling like I am forcing someone into being with me when they clearly are not into it. I am not some fumbling, bumbling insensitive man in bed., nor am I ham-handed about foreplay. My SO is a blame shifter, a procrastinator and is very very passive-aggressive. I was actually *****ed at for something I did in one of her dreams BTW. Yes, I have thought about asking her to leave my house (I will NOT leave the house I have worked for) but I don't have much time until our youngest is out so I will stick it out until he is off on his own, sell the house and then part ways if I can't help things improve. Funny how even here things are my fault. :scratchhead:


You are not at fault other than accepting your sex life as it is. The fact is that by accepting it you are perpetuating it. And don't get me wrong, I understand why you are doing what you are doing and in many ways it is commendable to put your family above your own needs. But until you are so fed up that the absence of sex is a deal breaker and you decide to nuke the situation it will not change because your wife has no reason to change. There is no incentive for her to alter her behavior because she is getting everything she wants right now. I myself could not stay in such a relationship because to me no sex = broken vows. Ironically when you do finally decide to end the marriage because of this issue she may actually come around and start to try to salvage the marriage by giving you more sex. It seems to happen all the time. Of course by then it may be too late because your resentment and frustration will have built up too much to recover from. My brother-in-law is going through the same thing. As soon as his youngest is off to college he has already told me he is ending the marriage. It's just damned sad.


----------



## Halien

It is easy to forget in discussions of sex that there is an almost universal feeling underneath every successful long term sexual relationship. Intimacy. Its too easy to simplify intimacy, turing it into physical acts like kissing or touching, but it goes much deeper. In fact, in both native american history, and western history, the whole subject of abandonment was usually based on sstrong connotations of emotional intimacy. You take away emotional intimacy, and a person can be abandoned even if the partner is still physically present. Its a deep feeling that really seperates a married couple from roomates, because it is technically an underlying component of sex.

Lets be honest. Some of us men can be ready for sex even if the intimacy is absent. Sometimes, though, its the only thing that makes a woman want to have sex.

With the rise of empiricism as it was applied to relationships, the whole concept of this deep emotional bond that seperated married people from roomates began to become just acts that could be felt with the senses, such as kissing and touching. The notion that a guy could simply regularly choose to turn his head when his wife tried to kiss him, or vice versa, became a matter of independence. I'm not talking about being disrespectful when a partner is angry or hurt, and demanding intimacy, but more of the expected behaviours that were understood naturally to be a part of marriage. In the native american cultures, a head turned away (outside of a time of anger or hurt) is like an act of divorce in some groups. It is something to be mourned.

I know it must sound naive, but I think that changing our focus to a goal of inspiring this feeling of intimacy within our partner, without the implicit connection to sex itself, is a practical way to address a broken marriage - because all of these marriages where sex or intimacy is not the norm are really broken.


----------



## Catherine602

AFEH said:


> You make a very very big rod for your own back there. I wonder how long you will go on hitting yourself with it.


I have no idea what this means. :scratchhead:


----------



## AFEH

Catherine602 said:


> I have no idea what this means. :scratchhead:


You seem to have taken on the burden of all the down trodden women in the world, like a martyr. There are good and bad women in the world in the same way that there good and bad men.


----------



## Threetimesalady

I am not going to get into this as you guys are doing great...However, I will say one thing as far as the woman Initiating Sex....If you are younger and the man is in fantastic sexual shape, then she should let it all hang out....But, this only happens if she is in heat for her partner....Faking it is hard....Now if he is older and starting to fail into the "iffie" catagory as far as being tired and able to get an erection, then she should let him do the choosing...I am dealing with an older husband....I do the prep work and he picks up the pieces....

If Mr. Wolf still does not know this and he is getting married in two months, this is scary....Women change....IMO, we get better and better....BUT, we have got to want what you have to perform the fetes of love...You are and must be the object of our want to make us whole...

On the other hand I have found, that men slow down....It's kind of a fact of life....This is when woman takes over...IMO, when two people are in tune with each other and the age be near where Mr. Wolf would probably be, he should have no worry...Take care...


----------



## Catherine602

I don't initiate. 

SA my husband and I have arguments and we have said things that are stupid in the heat of the moment. My problem is that I have a hard time forgetting a hurt. He is far more apt to forgive and forget. 

Another persistent problem is that he is not naturally communicative, he is a take charge and a doer. He has gotten better over the years. His receptive communication is a big problem. 

It is funny how he interprets what I say. Another thing is that I like to discuss things for understanding. So I ask him lots of questions and that frustrates him sometimes. 

I cut down on the questions by running things past friends working out things by writing and posting here. Then when I need to discuss something I don't need to pepper him with questions. And he is more patient. I can tell when it starts to get painful for him. 

He is dominant but not at all like ALEF. He is not apt to put women in their place or to act like he knows better. He is much more benevolent, less doctrinaire and more understanding. He does not use the words s!ut, [email protected] etc in my presence because they bother me. 

I have seen post by A using those terms to describe women. In fact, he shows none of the signs of disliking women as a whole, quite the opposite. 

He is willing to admit that he is wrong on some things but not all and so am I. We agree to disagree. 

I really don't know why he does not seem frustrated about sex. He is HD. Could he be secretly frustrated? He is too persistent and active I think. 

He likes challenges and when he meets obstacles he seems to get more persistent not less. That is why he is so successful in research. He rarely admits defeat and he figures things out. 

About sex I did not know men could be so angry about not getting the acts they want until I read about it here. Some poster border on abusive. 

I am lucky he has always been patient and never seems angry about sex. He gets angry about other things but not sex. He is kind of seductive and gets off on the challenge. 

He said he would be bored with a woman who was not a challenge and he likes to take charge. 


Hope this isn't TMI. He wanted to drive to the woods to have sex alfresco. I did not want to do it because I knew I could not relax, i have a fear of discovery. 

But we have had sex in doors in public places. In the ladies stall at clubs occasionally. The door is locked and women are shocked when we came out of he stall. 

We do many things that some couples don't, no animals or people involved. I have a few inhibitions that seem intractable but I overcame a great deal. 

Is the lack of alfresco sex eating him up inside? He is not given to standing still in frustration. Frustration is an admission of defeat. We have the same approach to life. 

We paid our way through college and professional school together, against tremendous odds. We never thought that we would not get where we wanted to go. 

He does not argue with my inhibitions. I don't think it would work for me. He has a plan to overcome them or I have. I really like this approach. He just carries out the plan in small steps.

Most of the time it works but not always.


----------



## AFEH

Catherine602 said:


> I don't initiate.
> 
> SA my husband and I have arguments and we have said things that are stupid in the heat of the moment. My problem is that I have a hard time forgetting a hurt. He is far more apt to forgive and forget.


You’re in your 30s? So your odds against staying together are about 50/50?

Take it from an oldie, you may as well chisel those two Golden Rules of yours onto the tombstone of your marriage now.

I Never Forgive
I Never Initiate​

Why? Because when you are in your 50s you will remind your husband of how he hurt you more than 20 years ago. That is you will constantly and consistently persecute your husband for unrelenting years for something he did over two decades ago because you are such an unforgiving woman. Your husband, being the very forgiving man that he is by the way you describe him, will see finally that as a massive injustice.

And secondly men who are proactive leaders/initiators sometimes really want another to take the reigns and lead. In the case of sex with their wife, he will really want you to take over on occasion basically because it’s the way he feels loved in more than any other way. If he’s a good looking, proactive leader capable of taking care of himself and others believe me he will have women trying to initiate sex with him, both passively and proactively. At the moment he may well love you enough to turn them down but they are knocking on his door.


And if you are a woman with any form of sex drive and who actually enjoys the act, then you will indeed initiate. In the times when all your boxes are ticked, you’re feeling warm and fuzzy inside then you will initiate but it will be in very subtle ways. Maybe you just aren’t aware of it but unless he’s blind your H will pick up on your signals. So you will be a passive initiator anyway.

But why a woman who professes to love her husband wont on the odd occasion actively as opposed to passively initiate sex with their H is beyond me. Just maybe it’s a fear of rejection. If it is then welcome aboard! Every single time a man initiates he may well get rejected.




But you never will initiate and you never will forgive. Like my wife, those things form a core part of your identity. It is so risky to be that fixed in your values and beliefs. So very risky but you’ll never know just how risky until your marriage has ended.


----------



## Stonewall

Mello_Yellow said:


> Yep, you are the only one!


Nope he is not. been with my love for 37 years and married 35. I have never been denied!


----------



## Stonewall

I've been tryin' to get down to the heart of the matter,
But my will gets weak,
And my thoughts seem to scatter,
But I think it's about forgiveness,
Forgiveness,
Even if, even if you don't love me anymore,


----------



## Mr Wolf

Threetimesalady said:


> If Mr. Wolf still does not know this and he is getting married in two months, this is scary....*Women change*....IMO, we get better and better....BUT, we have got to want what you have to perform the fetes of love...You are and must be the object of our want to make us whole...


Oh I understand this quite well. In fact, I have reflected the concept of people growing and changing and being loved through that in my vow to be a constant reminder for me. 



> You are and must be the object of our want *to make us whole*


I was wondering how long it would take for someone to make this point... This is, I believe, the key problem. There is an unstated expectation in many instances that the man will somehow make the woman whole or complete. He can't do that! Only she can. Once she let's go of that idea and takes ownership of her own self, the other issues may be easier to deal with. But to expect a man to do that which he cannot only leads to resentment and hidden anger that manifests itself in other ways in the relationship -- usually with the man completely unaware and wasting his time and effort trying to "better" himself for the purpose of improving a situation that in reality only the other partner can fix (i.e. the notion of him making her whole).


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Catherine602 said:


> I don't initiate.
> 
> SA my husband and I have arguments and we have said things that are stupid in the heat of the moment. My problem is that I have a hard time forgetting a hurt. He is far more apt to forgive and forget.


 Why is it so hard to forgive these hurts Catherine? Honestly, if there is ANYTHING that needs healed, attented too....it is THIS. I know AFEH is getting under your skin a little here, but he is right in what he says. And I hate to tell you but this...


> He said he would be bored with a woman who was not a challenge and he likes to take charge


 ...MEGA AFEH... ain't I right AFEH? I started a whole thread on this once because he said this -near word for word.....and I realized how utterly different my own husband was to men like him.... complete & utter opposite,and wanted to hear other men's opinions on it .... after getting some replies, I felt my husband sounded too strange & I deleted it ... but he seriously WANTS me to be EASY (probably cause of all the years I wasn't- I am sure) , he has never cared for the chase AT ALL. 

Thank you for sharing Catherine, I am not trying to get on you. 

You know I did that long winded thread on Transparency, I know you agree with it, but THIS... this not being able to forgive words, thoughts, things said in the heat of the moment .....is a DESTRUCTION of open honest communication. You say he is not naturally communicative.... and it sounded like he has always been this way....maybe even gotten a little better over the years... so the strong silent type I guess. He sounds very ALPHA to me. 

The main thing is... that you are always approachable , and he should feel the freedom to say anything to you, even frustration at times (sorry) without feeling he will never live these things down. That has to be delt with.... don't you think? Are there things you hold against him, words, fights not thoroughly talked out... from the past.... right now...resentment eating at you? 

Agreeing to disagree ....it is good IF it is settled in your heart...if not, it is not good. 



> His receptive communication is a big problem.
> 
> It is funny how he interprets what I say. Another thing is that I like to discuss things for understanding. So I ask him lots of questions and that frustrates him sometimes.


 I can understand you needing this... I am like you here too, alot of questions... but my husband is the utter opposite, he does not mind AT ALL, it is even good for me to do this, to pull things out of him (he needs that)... and receptively...I couldn't ask for more. 



> I cut down on the questions by running things past friends working out things by writing and posting here. Then when I need to discuss something I don't need to pepper him with questions. And he is more patient. I can tell when it starts to get painful for him.


 You are in the same situation as a ton of women here, I would think the Alpha type have way less patience with so much "women talk". They have too many things to do -to accomplish....to challenge them. Their motto is...go talk to your friends, don't bother me with this unless I can "fix" it. 



> He is dominant but not at all like AFEH. He is not apt to put women in their place or to act like he knows better. He is much more benevolent, less doctrinaire and more understanding.


 AFEH is just BRASH sometimes, I can be the same way, I have to watch it on this forum. But honestly, he has good advice. Even if it may come off as HARSH.... I bet your husband has learned over the years, how he can & can not talk to you...and he has toned it down, like you said he won't use those words around you (s!ut, [email protected] )...because they bother you. I wonder if that means he speaks like that to others -his guy friends, co -workers ? 



> I really don't know why he does not seem frustrated about sex. He is HD. Could he be secretly frustrated? He is too persistent and active I think.


 Depends... I think I have always been HD and guess what.. I know I am not a man, but I have tried to figure out where the hell my brain was in the past... and it is true... I was so busy planning, coming up with projects , our 2nd house -we worked on for 2 straight years...we never rested.... but we sold it in 2 wks & made a nice profit . I was very goal minded, my mind was CROWDED from head to toe on what I/we had to do "next" to save enough $$, to find our dream house, bla bla bla and I just didn't seem to have Sex on the brain back then until after days of not getting it - it built up just like a guy, except I didn't need it as much. ..... Even though I loved it.

I would think IF a man is BUSY BUSY BUSY like that, He could be the same, driven on his research, driven in his pursuits, if that is the most important thing to him. You know him best. ...sounds like it may fit with what you say here......"He likes challenges and when he meets obstacles he seems to get more persistent not less. That is why he is so successful in research. He rarely admits defeat and he figures things out". 

Maybe some other MEN can answer you on this? And if he just masterbates and doesn't mind.... you are good !! MY husband felt different, he felt once we married, that was MY job to take care of him (Yes I agree with that) .....and he stopped masterbating -he even stopped yrs before that - he just "waited for me"...this is why it ATE at him more so -cause he really NEEDED it more than we were doing it. (I had no idea he was not masterbating, I never even thought about it). Being the way my husband is, even if he DID masterbate, he would have still felt some resentment though, cause that is not what he wanted deep within...he wanted my affection and he wanted alot of it. I was being too busy elsewher except when we watched movies at night and he held me. 



> About sex I did not know men could be so angry about not getting the acts they want until I read about it here. Some poster border on abusive.


 Some may come off as abusive, sure..all types here....... many are very upset when they post ...so they are using this as thier outlet - in hopes of getting a handle on these desires -before they go off on thier wives even...for wanting MORE, craving more novelty, variety....to spare them and try to find a way to deal with having those intense longings...you know -they could just go get some on the side, the fact they are HERE is something to consider, at least that is how I look at it. 



> I am lucky he has always been patient and never seems angry about sex.


 Have you ever asked him, or you fear the answer. My situation again... my husband never took his bad moods out on me...it was more on the kids....I remember saying things to him a few times... but he would never owe up to what the REAL trigger was....

My husband never got more distant, we still did everything together -like the ball & chain, he was always more on the quiet side to begin with, but true, he was not as happy & chipper as he is NOW. I was off doing my own thing, so I just missed picking up the cues. But men can hide, maybe get their aggressions out in other ways- another subject may be insgnificant, but he seems overly annoyed, could be hiding behind that, using it as the trigger..... this happens aot in marriages, sidetracking the issues.....most especially if they FEAR their wives will be ultra sensitive to this type of talk (they've been there, they know better), or will hold it against them . 



> Hope this isn't TMI. He wanted to drive to the woods to have sex alfresco. I did not want to do it because I knew I could not relax, i have a fear of discovery.


 What if you go deep in the woods somewhere where discovery is very unlikely. He is kinda kinky! These must be his fantasies.... he wants to live them out.... he is creative...nice. Like young teens, I think you should indulge him...really. Consider it . Work with it.



> But we have had sex in doors in public places. In the ladies stall at clubs occasionally. The door is locked and women are shocked when we came out of he stall.


 he is a bit of a thrill seeker, a rush of the prospect of getting caught. Some are like this sexually... It is good you do it with him sometimes ! See my husband would never never never do that ! He is not a thrill seeker at all. I think it might be a little fun, thankfully it is not something I want or I would probably pester him. 



> We do many things that some couples don't, no animals or people involved. I have a few inhibitions that seem intractable but I overcame a great deal.


 If my husband was anything like yours, I almost KNOW I would have came out of my inhibitions WAYYYYY sooner, but oh well !



> Is the lack of alfresco sex eating him up inside?


 If you ask him, would he be honest with you, and what if he said it was... ?? 



> We paid our way through college and professional school together, against tremendous odds. We never thought that we would not get where we wanted to go.


 sounds like you have worked very very hard to get where you are. Well done !


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## Threetimesalady

Mr Wolf said:


> I was wondering how long it would take for someone to make this point... This is, I believe, the key problem. There is an unstated expectation in many instances that the man will somehow make the woman whole or complete. He can't do that! Only she can. Once she let's go of that idea and takes ownership of her own self, the other issues may be easier to deal with. But to expect a man to do that which he cannot only leads to resentment and hidden anger that manifests itself in other ways in the relationship -- usually with the man completely unaware and wasting his time and effort trying to "better" himself for the purpose of improving a situation that in reality only the other partner can fix (i.e. the notion of him making her whole).


For a woman to be made whole and completed, IMO, it takes confidence in her lover as well as giving of herself...The "whole" I speak of is his filling her mind as well as body with the joy of sexual mating...Her taking his penis into her body and enjoying it...Knowing that it is completing her want...Realizing that she trusts this man with her heart and soul...This is also part of female ejaculation...The trust between two people...Mainly a woman....The man and woman orgasm is as different as night and day....We can either accept man and go about our business or enjoy him and let him be a part of who we are....My husband completes me...For us sexual intercourse is the most mind boggling, sock it to me baby, hot **** possible....No planning...No Initiating, just me waiting for the time that his male hunger shows....I believe once a woman feels whole and has been filled with the true erotic feeling of a man orgasming inside her, that she is not only whole, but the happiest woman in the world...

Mr. Wolf, trust her....Give of yourself...and try to have faith in women....I have found and I believe I am right, that women as they age are some of the hottest creatures that roam the earth....Our problem being, we forgot to remember this years ago and let our men go....Take care....


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## mr.miketastic

Ok, so the majority of responses I get is that we men have to go through all sorts of mental gyrations, genuflections and great pains to make our women emotionally ready for sex. It seems that all a woman has to do, the majority of the time I might add, is just show interest. I know there are some women who also are not getting love from their husbands (fools those men are) But I would literally kill at this point to have some kind of return for all of the effort I put into making my SO feel emotionally connected.
Long walks, talking, snuggling, small acts of love, foot rub, back rubs, I love you's absolutely no begging, no pressure. I work and am the sole support. I am a good father, even her friends find me attractive ( a couple have asked her if she's done with me yet). I am not a beta so I don't whine and am assertive. So tell me, if I put in all that effort and she secretly gets off to her lesbian porn, and has made comments on how "gross" sex is, WTF? Really, WTF?


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## Mr Wolf

Threetimesalady said:


> Mr. Wolf, trust her....Give of yourself...and try to have faith in women....I have found and I believe I am right, that women as they age are some of the hottest creatures that roam the earth....Our problem being, we forgot to remember this years ago and let our men go....Take care....


3TL, what makes you think I don't trust her or give of myself? If you've read my posts you will see that I do not have issues with trust, sexual intimacy or her initiating -- and I'm very giving. I don't think I even implied that in my posts so I'm not sure where this is coming from. 

With respect to being made whole and complete, no matter how it is characterize it, no one can do that for anyone. That is too much pressure for most people. What you describe seems to be how you feel with the sexual union with your husband - which is fantastic. 



> We can *either* accept man and go about our business *or* enjoy him and let him be a part of who we are.


Why can't you accept him *and* enjoy him? Why does it have to be either or? Many women want men to accept them for who they are and love/enjoy them but men don't get that? I think this type of double standard is really what many men posting in this forum abhor and why they belive that many women want the man to do all of the work. Thankfully, some of the women here get it. Thankfully, my woman gets it!!!


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## Halien

mr.miketastic said:


> Ok, so the majority of responses I get is that we men have to go through all sorts of mental gyrations, genuflections and great pains to make our women emotionally ready for sex. It seems that all a woman has to do, the majority of the time I might add, is just show interest. I know there are some women who also are not getting love from their husbands (fools those men are) But I would literally kill at this point to have some kind of return for all of the effort I put into making my SO feel emotionally connected.
> Long walks, talking, snuggling, small acts of love, foot rub, back rubs, I love you's absolutely no begging, no pressure. I work and am the sole support. I am a good father, even her friends find me attractive ( a couple have asked her if she's done with me yet). I am not a beta so I don't whine and am assertive. So tell me, if I put in all that effort and she secretly gets off to her lesbian porn, and has made comments on how "gross" sex is, WTF? Really, WTF?


Here's where my wife and I differ from many couples. Through the work we went through with premarital counseling, we cemented a very good understanding of what "being married" means. She can't look to me to make her fulfilled without first looking to herself to make sure I am, and vice versa. "Being married" is not a piece of paper. It is what we do. We describe being married as consistently reaching out to each other. The moment one partner settles into a pattern of behaving like your wife, the couple is not "being married". Infidelity results in the same lack of 'being married'.

Admittedly, really doing the work of trying to understand each other's sexuality seems to come harder at times for my wife. The fact that she virtually never disengages from intimacy makes it very easy to go the extra mile. Because she values the concept of active marriage so highly, I know how she would respond if medical issues negatively impacted her sex drive, and I could find peace with that. 

Sorry, but it sounds like your wife doesn't like the idea of 'being married', but you guys still have a piece of paper keeping you together. I don't mean this sarcastically.


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## Threetimesalady

Mr Wolf said:


> 3TL, what makes you think I don't trust her or give of myself? If you've read my posts you will see that I do not have issues with trust, sexual intimacy or her initiating -- and I'm very giving. I don't think I even implied that in my posts so I'm not sure where this is coming from.
> 
> With respect to being made whole and complete, no matter how it is characterize it, no one can do that for anyone. That is too much pressure for most people. What you describe seems to be how you feel with the sexual union with your husband - which is fantastic.
> 
> *Trust that she loves you..Trust that you can make her happy....You seem somewhat wary of women....Yes, what I describe is exactly what I feel for my husband....This is what makes us whole...Makes sex wonderful and IMO, the same want and erotic feeling must be there the day you partner in order to make two people one...The woman being the most important....She must give more of herself than any man will ever know....*
> 
> 
> Why can't you accept him *and* enjoy him? Why does it have to be either or? Many women want men to accept them for who they are and love/enjoy them but men don't get that? I think this type of double standard is really what many men posting in this forum abhor and why they belive that many women want the man to do all of the work. Thankfully, some of the women here get it. Thankfully, my woman gets it!!!


*They can't accept because this special part of them has not been awaken that wants the filling of man....This is big...Bigger than man can or will ever know...We are forced to open our bodies and let man invade our soul....You have one penis....We have a whole body full of love to give....This has nothing to do with work, it is only the sexual feelings between two people...This alone is the reason that man does not understand the true inner feelings of a woman...He can jack off with a jerk of his hand....We have to find a special part of ourselves and let it go....I wish you well....*


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## mr.miketastic

Halien said:


> Here's where my wife and I differ from many couples. Through the work we went through with premarital counseling, we cemented a very good understanding of what "being married" means. She can't look to me to make her fulfilled without first looking to herself to make sure I am, and vice versa. "Being married" is not a piece of paper. It is what we do. We describe being married as consistently reaching out to each other. The moment one partner settles into a pattern of behaving like your wife, the couple is not "being married". Infidelity results in the same lack of 'being married'.
> 
> Admittedly, really doing the work of trying to understand each other's sexuality seems to come harder at times for my wife. The fact that she virtually never disengages from intimacy makes it very easy to go the extra mile. Because she values the concept of active marriage so highly, I know how she would respond if medical issues negatively impacted her sex drive, and I could find peace with that.
> 
> Sorry, but it sounds like your wife doesn't like the idea of 'being married', but you guys still have a piece of paper keeping you together. I don't mean this sarcastically.


yeah. I think often about what it is I could do, and the best thing to do is keep myself together to make sure her and the kids are taken care of. I need to perhaps learn more acceptance, that hings are what they are and sometimes you can't fix it. I think that I would hesitate to end this over something like sex...She has pretty much told me a while back that that is all I want her for...I have seen some posters here say the same thing. It's like there is some weird mind control field around the planet making some women into frigid control freaks. I don't know. I am sure I will get over it.


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## mr.miketastic

Threetimesalady said:


> *They can't accept because this special part of them has not been awaken that wants the filling of man....This is big...Bigger than man can or will ever know...We are forced to open our bodies and let man invade our soul....You have one penis....We have a whole body full of love to give....This has nothing to do with work, it is only the sexual feelings between two people...This alone is the reason that man does not understand the true inner feelings of a woman...He can jack off with a jerk of his hand....We have to find a special part of ourselves and let it go....I wish you well....*


Wait a second. So the comparison you make there seems to imply that men are far inferior to women when it comes to depth of feeling or the emotional connection. So men are hot dogs and women filet mignon? sigh


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## Catherine602

AFEH said:


> You’re in your 30s? So your odds against staying together are about 50/50?
> 
> Take it from an oldie, you may as well chisel those two Golden Rules of yours onto the tombstone of your marriage now.
> 
> I Never Forgive
> I Never Initiate​
> 
> Why? Because when you are in your 50s you will remind your husband of how he hurt you more than 20 years ago. That is you will constantly and consistently persecute your husband for unrelenting years for something he did over two decades ago because you are such an unforgiving woman. Your husband, being the very forgiving man that he is by the way you describe him, will see finally that as a massive injustice.
> 
> And secondly men who are proactive leaders/initiators sometimes really want another to take the reigns and lead. In the case of sex with their wife, he will really want you to take over on occasion basically because it’s the way he feels loved in more than any other way. If he’s a good looking, proactive leader capable of taking care of himself and others believe me he will have women trying to initiate sex with him, both passively and proactively. At the moment he may well love you enough to turn them down but they are knocking on his door.
> 
> 
> And if you are a woman with any form of sex drive and who actually enjoys the act, then you will indeed initiate. In the times when all your boxes are ticked, you’re feeling warm and fuzzy inside then you will initiate but it will be in very subtle ways. Maybe you just aren’t aware of it but unless he’s blind your H will pick up on your signals. So you will be a passive initiator anyway.
> 
> But why a woman who professes to love her husband wont on the odd occasion actively as opposed to passively initiate sex with their H is beyond me. Just maybe it’s a fear of rejection. If it is then welcome aboard! Every single time a man initiates he may well get rejected.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But you never will initiate and you never will forgive. Like my wife, those things form a core part of your identity. It is so risky to be that fixed in your values and beliefs. So very risky but you’ll never know just how risky until your marriage has ended.


Ahhh you know my husband then or you just know men. I think you are doing the very thing that you point your finger at women on this board for doing. You generalize with delusional abandon and you think in absolutes. Among your other problems is black and white thinking, a truckload of rage and using always and never descriptives. 

This may be a shock to your system but I am better position to advise you than you are me. You lack insight and I have it so let me share with you what I see. Take it or leave it.

You are a miserable angry bitter human being and out of that miasma, you see darkness and chaos. You are have abdicated control of your life and destiny and as a result you try to control. 

Look at the things that enrage you in reference to women and then find those things in yourself. They are all there, all the bilge that erupts due to your many biases all are from you. 

It is easier to pontificate, moralize and try to control others than to control yourself. I know these things from experience. I do it all the time. But I know it is me and not "them".

On the one hand you talk about the lack of sympathy woman have for men and then you pull out the old worn-out latter century scare tactic. 

You paint all men as cold hearted [email protected] who have a hard time thinking with their big brains. Your dire warnings are laughable if they were not the delusions of man fixated on punishing all women for what happened to him.

You think you know my husband, why? Because you think all men are alike? Then with your intimate knowledge of men, I should take it as a given that as I age he will consider me disposable? 

You know that because you know men? Well, there is no sense in being the perfect wife is there. I should bag it stop trying like the women who buy into these generalizations are doing? 

I should stop having sex with him, stop trying so hard to please him because no matter what I do, men will be men. Maybe the women who ignore their husbands are right then. 

Why be used as a temporary service station, take arms against the sea of troubles. Hmmmm then those feminist were right. I think you are doing more for the radical feminist agenda than you know AFEH. 

No matter what they do, all men are sex-crazed maniacs with little control. One Woman will never be enough? I should be the perfect wife so he won't chase young tail as all men are apt to do? 

He does not have to do anything because he is a man and has first right of refusal and is programmed to roam? 

Have I got it right yet teacher. 

You think that it is impossible that he would feel that I, even at 60 years could be the best he has ever or could ever have? Men don't have those feelings?

You think the chances of me cheating and leaving him are remote and if I did I would never find another man because I am past my prime of 24 yo.

How about you? Have you thrown away that old bird of a wife and gotten your allotment of hot young babes? 

If not, what are you waiting for.


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## Enchantment

mr.miketastic said:


> Ok, so the majority of responses I get is that we men have to go through all sorts of mental gyrations, genuflections and great pains to make our women emotionally ready for sex. It seems that all a woman has to do, the majority of the time I might add, is just show interest. I know there are some women who also are not getting love from their husbands (fools those men are) But I would literally kill at this point to have some kind of return for all of the effort I put into making my SO feel emotionally connected.
> Long walks, talking, snuggling, small acts of love, foot rub, back rubs, I love you's absolutely no begging, no pressure. I work and am the sole support. I am a good father, even her friends find me attractive ( a couple have asked her if she's done with me yet). I am not a beta so I don't whine and am assertive. So tell me, if I put in all that effort and she secretly gets off to her lesbian porn, and has made comments on how "gross" sex is, WTF? Really, WTF?


Perhaps she is really a closeted lesbian and not actually attracted to men?


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## *Dean*

mr.miketastic said:


> yeah. I think often about what it is I could do, and the best thing to do is keep myself together to make sure her and the kids are taken care of. I need to perhaps learn more acceptance, that hings are what they are and sometimes you can't fix it. I think that I would hesitate to end this over something like sex...She has pretty much told me a while back that that is all I want her for...I have seen some posters here say the same thing. It's like there is some weird mind control field around the planet making some women into frigid control freaks. I don't know. I am sure I will get over it.



Have you ever gotten really mad at her over the lack of Sex?
Does she know how you really feel about it?

You would be amazed at the power of a wife knowing a husband would stop paying special attention to her, not talking to her, even walking away from the marriage over a lack of sex.

So your willing to live the rest of your life like this.....thinking you will get over it. 
When your on your death bed with seconds to live, your going to look back and wished you would have done something different.


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## Enchantment

mr.miketastic said:


> Wait a second. So the comparison you make there seems to imply that men are far inferior to women when it comes to depth of feeling or the emotional connection. So men are hot dogs and women filet mignon? sigh


Oh, my.  That isn't the way that I took ThreeTimesALady's post. BOTH men and women are like the most excellent cuts of meat ... or fine wines... or fantastic cheesecakes.

To me, it's very interesting how men and women are so different in many ways, and yet they are so complementary to each other from how they physically fit together to how they emotionally fit together.

In my marriage, my husband fills up a part of me that I am not very good at filling up. I'm not very good at filling up that physical part of me, but he is - both literally and figuratively. He is more reticent with his emotions and feelings, and that is the part that I help fill up. With both of us doing that, we like to tease each other ... we are like one whole complete person ... a union. Hmmm..... that is what a marriage is supposed to be, I think.


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## Mr Wolf

Threetimesalady said:


> Trust that she loves you..Trust that you can make her happy....You seem somewhat wary of women....
> 
> *I only get wary when some women don't listen and continue to impose on the man that which they think - like when you keep telling me to trust when I have told you that I do. That suggests to me that you aren't listening maybe because it doesn't fit with what you want to believe.*
> 
> The woman being the most important
> 
> *Do you have issues with men? It seems so based on this statement?*
> 
> They can't accept because this special part of them has not been awaken that wants the filling of man....This is big...Bigger than man can or will ever know...We are *forced* to open our bodies and *let man invade* our soul....You have one penis....We have a whole body full of love to give....This has nothing to do with work, it is only the sexual feelings between two people...This alone is the reason that man does not understand the true inner feelings of a woman...He can jack off with a jerk of his hand....We have to find a special part of ourselves and let it go....I wish you well....
> 
> *Yep you have real issues with men....*


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## AFEH

Catherine602 said:


> Ahhh you know my husband then or you just know men. I think you are doing the very thing that you point your finger at women on this board for doing. You generalize with delusional abandon and you think in absolutes. Among your other problems is black and white thinking, a truckload of rage and using always and never descriptives.
> 
> This may be a shock to your system but I am better position to advise you than you are me. You lack insight and I have it so let me share with you what I see. Take it or leave it.
> 
> You are a miserable angry bitter human being and out of that miasma, you see darkness and chaos. You are have abdicated control of your life and destiny and as a result you try to control.
> 
> Look at the things that enrage you in reference to women and then find those things in yourself. They are all there, all the bilge that erupts due to your many biases all are from you.
> 
> It is easier to pontificate, moralize and try to control others than to control yourself. I know these things from experience. I do it all the time. But I know it is me and not "them".
> 
> On the one hand you talk about the lack of sympathy woman have for men and then you pull out the old worn-out latter century scare tactic.
> 
> You paint all men as cold hearted [email protected] who have a hard time thinking with their big brains. Your dire warnings are laughable if they were not the delusions of man fixated on punishing all women for what happened to him.
> 
> You think you know my husband, why? Because you think all men are alike? Then with your intimate knowledge of men, I should take it as a given that as I age he will consider me disposable?
> 
> You know that because you know men? Well, there is no sense in being the perfect wife is there. I should bag it stop trying like the women who buy into these generalizations are doing?
> 
> I should stop having sex with him, stop trying so hard to please him because no matter what I do, men will be men. Maybe the women who ignore their husbands are right then.
> 
> Why be used as a temporary service station, take arms against the sea of troubles. Hmmmm then those feminist were right. I think you are doing more for the radical feminist agenda than you know AFEH.
> 
> No matter what they do, all men are sex-crazed maniacs with little control. One Woman will never be enough? I should be the perfect wife so he won't chase young tail as all men are apt to do?
> 
> He does not have to do anything because he is a man and has first right of refusal and is programmed to roam?
> 
> Have I got it right yet teacher.
> 
> You think that it is impossible that he would feel that I, even at 60 years could be the best he has ever or could ever have? Men don't have those feelings?
> 
> You think the chances of me cheating and leaving him are remote and if I did I would never find another man because I am past my prime of 24 yo.
> 
> How about you? Have you thrown away that old bird of a wife and gotten your allotment of hot young babes?
> 
> If not, what are you waiting for.


Deluded. Well deluded. It's what comes with being two faced.


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## AFEH

mr.miketastic said:


> Wait a second. So the comparison you make there seems to imply that men are far inferior to women when it comes to depth of feeling or the emotional connection. So men are hot dogs and women filet mignon? sigh


Some just don't know mate. They really just don't know.


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