# The reproductive benefits of criminality



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

"Criminality is highly costly to victims and their relatives, but often also to offenders. From an evolutionary viewpoint, criminal behavior may persist despite adverse consequences by providing offenders with fitness benefits as part of a successful alternative mating strategy. Specifically, criminal behavior may have evolved as a reproductive strategy based on low parental investment reflected in low commitment in reproductive relationships. We linked data from nationwide total population registers in Sweden to test if criminality is associated with reproductive success. Further, we used several different measures related to monogamy to determine the relation between criminal behavior and alternative mating tactics. *Convicted criminal offenders had more children than individuals never convicted of a criminal offense.* Criminal offenders also had more reproductive partners, were less often married, more likely to get remarried if ever married, and had more often contracted a sexually transmitted disease than non-offenders. *Importantly, the increased reproductive success of criminals was explained by a fertility increase from having children with several different partners.* We conclude that criminality appears to be adaptive in a contemporary industrialized country, and that this association can be explained by antisocial behavior being part of an adaptive alternative reproductive strategy."

(http://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(14)00077-4/abstract)


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

So criminals also engage in selfish irresponsible behavior in the bedroom. Stop the presses.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

:laugh: 

It's about time a study is done to figure out that everything we do is beneficial in some way and connected to our dna. 

Yeah. Sure. How about character, self-control, and integrity? I guess those can't be learned, but are ingrained in our dna?

If that's the case, we can't change who we are and what we do. Once a cheater, always a cheater? We know that isn't true for all.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

I think there is a level of risk taking associated with being a criminal. Those willing to take those risks also are willing to take more risks with women. Or really. The women who are sleeping with them have such low self esteem they are willing to do whatever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Haiku said:


> So criminals also engage in selfish irresponsible behavior in the bedroom. Stop the presses.


Only if they have women who will indulge with them.

Whom criminals seem to have no trouble finding.

Unlike boring accountants and the like.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Herschel said:


> I think there is a level of risk taking associated with being a criminal. Those willing to take those risks also are willing to take more risks with women. Or really. The women who are sleeping with them have such low self esteem they are willing to do whatever.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lots of men are willing to take risks with women.

Many of those men don't find women willing to take risks with them.

Criminals, however, don't seem to have much trouble with that issue.

I wonder why that is?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

tech-novelist said:


> Lots of men are willing to take risks with women.
> 
> Many of those men don't find women willing to take risks with them.
> 
> ...


LOL, dude. You're like an evangelist with these threads.

To answer your question, I'm sure it's exactly the same reason that the criminal women also have no trouble with that issue. 



> For each of the definitions of criminality, we found moderately strong (e.g. d = 0.39 and d = 0.26 for any conviction in *men and women* respectively), significant associations between criminality and fertility (p < 0.0001) in both men and women


Did you know that people with lower education also have higher fertility? Maybe we should recommend lobotomies for men who are looking to score some?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

wild jade said:


> LOL, dude. You're like an evangelist with these threads.
> 
> To answer your question, I'm sure it's exactly the same reason that the criminal women also have no trouble with that issue.


No woman of even moderate attractiveness has *any trouble* getting herself impregnated. Most men don't have the option of getting a lot of women pregnant... but being a criminal certainly seems to help.



wild jade said:


> Did you know that people with lower education also have higher fertility? Maybe we should recommend lobotomies for men who are looking to score some?


If what they are trying to score is pregnancy, sure. >


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

tech-novelist said:


> No woman of even moderate attractiveness has *any trouble* getting herself impregnated. Most men don't have the option of getting a lot of women pregnant... but being a criminal certainly seems to help.
> 
> 
> 
> If what they are trying to score is pregnancy, sure. >


Okay, now you're confusing me. So we're inferring that because criminals have more babies, they are more attractive and getting more sex. But we cannot assume this of people with lower education? Why not?

And if it's so easy for women to get men, why is it that the women criminals are shown to be so much more successful at having more partners, more sex, and more babies?


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

What are we including here as "criminal activity?"

Speeding? Tax evasion? Armed robbery? Being caught with a joint?

Is this more about that someone is a criminal or because of the factors that lead people to become criminals? How do you account for all of the X factors here and conclude that the common denominator is committing a crime?

As the only thing anyone can read is the abstract without paying $35 (no thanks) we literally have no more information, so this is basically TAM clickbait.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

wild jade said:


> Okay, now you're confusing me. So we're inferring that because criminals have more babies, they are more attractive and getting more sex. But we cannot assume this of people with lower education? Why not?


Lower education is highly correlated with lower intelligence. Lower intelligence is highly correlated with higher criminality. Higher criminality is correlated with impregnating more women.

These relationships make it hard to separate out the cause and effect.

However, it is known to be true that male criminals, especially extremely violent ones, get a lot of sexual attention from women; this effect is called "hybristophilia". So it is logical to assume that there is a connection between criminality itself and impregnating women.



wild jade said:


> And if it's so easy for women to get men, why is it that the women criminals are shown to be so much more successful at having more partners, more sex, and more babies?


For (at least moderately attractive) women to have sex, all they have to do is consent to it. Female criminals, like criminals in general, have poor impulse control, so they are likely to have more sex with more partners than women with better impulse control, and also less likely to take precautions against pregnancy.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Starstarfish said:


> What are we including here as "criminal activity?"
> 
> Speeding? Tax evasion? Armed robbery? Being caught with a joint?
> 
> ...


Sorry about the paid link. I thought for some reason that the whole article was downloadable.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

@tech-novelist 

If you're going to hold up women with serious issues and likely mental health disorders as indicative of what all women want, and therefore what men ought to emulate in order to have these women flocking to them, then well, there isn't much left to say.

Good luck with that.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Other than traffic laws, I don't think I've knowingly broke the law in 20 years or more, it being that long since I've smoked a joint with a friend, and I have 8 kids. More if you want to count my stint as a sperm donor in college.

I'm a law-abiding, reproducing maniac.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

tech-novelist said:


> Most men don't have the option of getting a lot of women pregnant... but being a criminal certainly seems to help.


Is this what you are crying about ... the "option" of getting a lot of woman pregnant?

This thread and the other that you started recently read like a lot of moaning about men not being able to get (read fvck) all the women they want.

I have an idea, why don't you time-travel back to the dark ages where there was a lot of rape, pillage and plunder going on. You know, the take-what-you-want-by-force method? Maybe then you would be happy?

Again, I'm :slap:


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

I don't see the benefits of children without a healthy male role model to look up to. 
If anything it creates more societal problems. 
Where is the reproduction benefits in that? 


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

This thread makes me want to rob a bank... Proof women are attracted to bad boys.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

BetrayedDad said:


> This thread makes me want to rob a bank...


Are you sure you want to get a lot of women pregnant? It doesn't seem like a good plan.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

GTdad said:


> Are you sure you want to get a lot of women pregnant? It doesn't seem like a good plan.


I'll already be in prison so they can't lock me up for not paying child support.

Sounds like a win/win.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

tech-novelist said:


> Lots of men are willing to take risks with women.
> 
> Many of those men don't find women willing to take risks with them.
> 
> ...


There is a difference in personalities between the accountant who is quiet, caring, studious, engaged in numbers, very picky about being exact due to regulations and the consequences of making errors,

and the criminal who throws caution to the wind where laws are concerned, must have a hardened attitude or will be taken advantage of or reported to criminal authorities for his piece of the pie, carries an illegal firearm for his safety from those men, believes he will eventually get caught so doesn't worry about the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy, the wrath of an angry accountant husband who had his last fight in the third grade and lasted all of two punches and who takes his family to church every Sunday. 

For responsibility, great character, trustworthy, and long term security, the accountant is the man. He'll take no for an answer when he wants sex. He loves and respects the woman he is with. 

For a little dangerous short term fun, the criminal is the man. He won't take no for an answer when he wants sex. He'll find it elsewhere.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> There is a difference in personalities between the accountant who is quiet, caring, studious, engaged in numbers, very picky about being exact due to regulations and the consequences of making errors,
> 
> and the criminal who throws caution to the wind where laws are concerned, must have a hardened attitude or will be taken advantage of or reported to criminal authorities for his piece of the pie, carries an illegal firearm for his safety from those men, believes he will eventually get caught so doesn't worry about the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy, the wrath of an angry accountant husband who had his last fight in the third grade and lasted all of two punches and who takes his family to church every Sunday.
> 
> ...


Fine, but that doesn't explain why women would be more willing to have sex with the criminal than with the accountant. And other than in the case of rape, it is indeed up to them whether to have sex with either one, so why do they make that choice?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Red Sonja said:


> Is this what you are crying about ... the "option" of getting a lot of woman pregnant?
> 
> This thread and the other that you started recently read like a lot of moaning about men not being able to get (read fvck) all the women they want.
> 
> ...


The point I'm making is about the sexual choices of women. Since criminals have more (I'm assuming consensual) sex with more partners than non-criminals, that definitely suggests that women are, at the very least, not deterred by criminality when choosing sex partners. 

Of course this makes no sense in the modern world, but made a lot of sense in the dark ages with all the rape, pillage, and plunder you refer to. In those days, a large percentage of women were subject to wartime rape and other types of forced sex. Any woman who didn't go along with the program wasn't very likely to survive, therefore, we are largely descended from women who *did *go along with the program. And of course the most violent men often had the most children (Genghis Khan and his clan being a notable example), thus spreading this acceptance of violence in men, to the extent that any of this is heritable. This explains the tolerance (at least) by many women of anti-social behavior in men. (BTW, it also explains the prevalence of rape fantasies in female porn, e.g., "50 Shades of Grey").

None of this applies to my personal situation. I'm happily married and don't have any interest in violent behavior of any kind (other than to avoid it whenever possible). In fact, I'm thrilled to be living in an era where it is not too difficult to avoid such behavior. But it is very illustrative of a number of the points of evolutionary psychology.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> This thread makes me want to rob a bank... Proof women are attracted to bad boys.


You can save yourself the trouble. All you have to do is read some of the threads in this forum: Husbands & Boyfriends in Prison - Prison Talk.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

tech-novelist said:


> No woman of even moderate attractiveness has *any trouble* getting herself impregnated. Most men don't have the option of getting a lot of women pregnant... but being a criminal certainly seems to help.


Most dudes who are playing are most definitely *NOT* trying to inseminate a woman. A man who fathers a child has a steep economic cost to fatherhood _except for a man with no legal income_.

A felon with no tangible assets has no cost in impregnation. We, the taxpayers, bear the financial burden of raising his progeny. He carries on knocking up woman after woman.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

tech-novelist said:


> Fine, but that doesn't explain why women would be more willing to have sex with the criminal than with the accountant. And other than in the case of rape, it is indeed up to them whether to have sex with either one, so why do they make that choice?


If your son turns out to be a felon who impregnates multiple women, you're going to have lots of grandbabies. It is a winning genetic strategy if the sole goal is propogation of your DNA.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

tech-novelist said:


> Fine, but that doesn't explain why women would be more willing to have sex with the criminal than with the accountant. And other than in the case of rape, it is indeed up to them whether to have sex with either one, so why do they make that choice?





> For a little dangerous short term fun, the criminal is the man. He won't take no for an answer when he wants sex. He'll find it elsewhere.


Some women cannot resist a man who takes charge, because they like to be taken care of.

Some women cannot resist a man who is a little dangerous, they don't believe he will hurt them. He doesn't act like he would because he wants sex from them....but, he has options other than her and isn't afraid she will find out. He doesn't have to tell her he has options. She knows he does because other women who like dangerous men show him they are interested, even when she is with him when they are out. Because, those women don't care either. 

That just pulls the woman he is with at the time into doing more for him in an effort to prove she is better than the others. If he shows her she is, by his actions of letting her into his world a little and giving her attention and sex, she believes she has won and her self esteem goes up. It has little to do with his bad reputation, and more to do with what he represents to other women and therefore her. 

Eventually, she figures out that he is a jerk and leaves or throws him out, but she may love the feelings of superiority those type of men provide, as well as the false feelings of security and go back to another time and again. 

Those particular women seem to never be satisfied with a man like the responsible accountant for very long. It's not really their fault. They can't help it. 

What is bad is that they are fooling themselves and then also the accountant type man who will fall deeply for a woman like this giving him attention and sex he never had before. 

But...he will never be able to satisfy her mind.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

tech-novelist said:


> Sorry about the paid link. I thought for some reason that the whole article was downloadable.


It's frustrating because now the conversations is revolved around assumptions rather than any hard data. And so it hints at the idea was that it's another thread just meant to promote the idea women love dirt-bags and being treated badly.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

larry.gray said:


> If your son turns out to be a felon who impregnates multiple women, you're going to have lots of grandbabies. It is a winning genetic strategy if the *sole goal is propagation of your DNA*.


And of course that is the *definition *of a winning genetic strategy.

Thanks for the support!


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> Those particular women seem to never be satisfied with a man like the responsible accountant for very long. It's not really their fault. They can't help it.
> 
> What is bad is that they are fooling themselves and then also the accountant type man who will fall deeply for a woman like this giving him attention and sex he never had before.
> 
> But...he will never be able to satisfy her mind.


And as a result, there's a good chance that she will get tired of him and his sexual needs.

And he'll end up here.

(Yes, I know, men are responsible for some sexless marriages too...)


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

MrsAldi said:


> I don't see the benefits of children without a healthy male role model to look up to.
> If anything it creates more societal problems.
> Where is the reproduction benefits in that?
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


The benefits are to the genes being passed on.

The costs are handed to society.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I think of these like venting threads for men, rather than women. They aren't gospel. There isn't much in the way of proof. They are just opinion. There are complaints.

Are there any members here who do this? Are there any posts from some members who try to refute what is said or "help", and then are lambasted? 

Who here doesn't know that these are venting threads? Who believes these things without evidence? 

You? Who are you? I want to sell you a bridge. 

Now, if there happens to be some proof posted, you can check it out and make your own decisions as to what to believe. 

I really am sorry I had to post this. 

In a way, I've learned something.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Starstarfish said:


> It's frustrating because now the conversations is revolved around assumptions rather than any hard data. And so it hints at the idea was that it's another thread just meant to promote the idea women love dirt-bags and being treated badly.


Yup. Now we've decided that criminals have more sex than non-criminals because supposedly they produce more babies and they say so.

There's no arguing against red pill. Reality plays no role in any of this. It's all about insisting loud enough and refusing any other explanation. Not quite sure why it's so important to do this ... but clearly it makes some guys feel better to believe women want them to be *******s. 

Maybe they're just looking for reasons to act like *******s? :scratchhead: Don't know.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> But...he will never be able to satisfy her mind.






tech-novelist said:


> And as a result, there's a good chance that she will get tired of him and his sexual needs.
> 
> And he'll end up here.
> 
> (Yes, I know, men are responsible for some sexless marriages too...)


Yes, yes, and I know you don't mean men are innocent. I don't either.

Well, after all, the mind is the largest sex organ. Some women will even tell you to make love to their mind first, and the body will likely follow. 

Paraphrasing what I've read here at TAM.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

MrsAldi said:


> I don't see the benefits of children without a healthy male role model to look up to.
> If anything it creates more societal problems.
> *Where is the reproduction benefits in that?*


For the sperm donor? Nothing wins more than sireing children they don't have to raise.

It just sucks for the rest of us.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

tech-novelist said:


> The point I'm making is about the sexual choices of women. Since criminals have more (I'm assuming consensual) sex with more partners than non-criminals, that definitely suggests that women are, at the very least, not deterred by criminality


Nope, I don't buy that for a second.

The difference is the better use of birth control, period.

I can think of multiple counter examples. College is loaded with a hookup culture. Cheating is rampant regardless of class. Swinging is an upper middle class activity. Rich men can have escorts or gold digging mistresses.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

tech-novelist said:


> The benefits are to the genes being passed on.
> 
> The costs are handed to society.


What type of genes are you talking about? 

Most criminals (sociopath/psychopaths) can be extremely charming & confident. 
They can tell a person what they want to hear, women could fall for that. 
The most dangerous guys though (rapists etc) have an ordinary way about them, trustworthy etc. 





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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

larry.gray said:


> Nope, I don't buy that for a second.
> 
> The difference is the better use of birth control, period.
> 
> I can think of multiple counter examples. College is loaded with a hookup culture. Cheating is rampant regardless of class. Swinging is an upper middle class activity. Rich men can have escorts or gold digging mistresses.


Argue with the authors of the study, not me. I'm just repeating what they found.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

MrsAldi said:


> What type of genes are you talking about?
> 
> Most criminals (sociopath/psychopaths) can be extremely charming & confident.
> They can tell a person what they want to hear, women could fall for that.
> ...


Whatever genes they pass on, of course.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> Nope, I don't buy that for a second.
> 
> The difference is the better use of birth control, period.
> 
> I can think of multiple counter examples. College is loaded with a hookup culture. Cheating is rampant regardless of class. Swinging is an upper middle class activity. Rich men can have escorts or gold digging mistresses.


This type of thing happens in colleges, as well. There are those there that have a similar attitude to the criminal. It isn't as mean for lack of a better word. It isn't as dangerous in the real world. 

It is dangerous enough for a young woman who has studied hard in high school, been out working on her development and seen some of these true criminals, but is intelligent and mature enough due to her life experiences and leaned knowledge to reject the true criminal and choose the "bad boy" from college. 

So, it's different, yet it's similar. I'm guessing you've seen that. 

I know one guy who is a hard man, confident, and secure. He went to college at almost forty years old and was dating these young women who fell all over him, rather than men their own age.

They had no long term plans for him. 

Not all women, by any means, but there were enough to raise my eyebrows and wonder.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

tech-novelist said:


> Whatever genes they pass on, of course.


To say "genes" means a certain quality is embedded in the DNA.

While certain neurobiology scans of some well known criminals have different activities in the brain it doesn't mean that it can be "passed on"

It's usually childhood environment of lack of disaplinary action that creates a person who lacks empathy & remorseful behaviours.

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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

tech-novelist said:


> Argue with the authors of the study, not me. I'm just repeating what they found.


No, I will argue with you.

The study claims that criminals reproduce more. This is far from the first study that claims that. It also aligns with my personal experience.

You are extrapolating more children into more sex partners. They study didn't say that. I'm disagreeing with that claim.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

MrsAldi said:


> To say "genes" means a certain quality is embedded in the DNA.
> 
> While certain neurobiology scans of some well known criminals have different activities in the brain it doesn't mean that it can be "passed on"
> 
> ...


Are you saying that there is nothing inheritable in personality or IQ? Those have tremendous effects on criminal behavior (or the lack thereof).


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

larry.gray said:


> No, I will argue with you.
> 
> The study claims that criminals reproduce more. This is far from the first study that claims that. It also aligns with my personal experience.
> 
> You are extrapolating more children into more sex partners. They study didn't say that. I'm disagreeing with that claim.


You're right that it didn't say (or at least the abstract didn't say) that they had more sex partners. It said they had more reproductive partners, which I assumed meant more sex partners, but that could be wrong.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

tech-novelist said:


> Are you saying that there is nothing inheritable in personality or IQ? Those have tremendous effects on criminal behavior (or the lack thereof).


DNA is where you inherit physical traits but not necessarily personality or IQ, that would be inherited in the child's environment. 

But DNA & genes alone cannot make you sexually attract women. 

It's the risk & manipulate factor, they risk without a condom & manipulate a woman into having sex. 











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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

MrsAldi said:


> DNA is where you inherit physical traits but not necessarily personality or IQ, that would be inherited in the child's environment.
> 
> But DNA & genes alone cannot make you sexually attract women.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but IQ is definitely highly heritable. Twin studies proved that many years ago.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

tech-novelist said:


> I'm sorry, but IQ is definitely highly heritable. Twin studies proved that many years ago.


Not necessarily in every case. 
It depends again on brain functions and learning in a child's environment & upbringing. 




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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

MrsAldi said:


> Not necessarily in every case.
> It depends again on brain functions and learning in a child's environment & upbringing.


Environment and upbringing can result in small improvements or huge reductions in intelligence.

Barring extreme examples, DNA is the overriding factor.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> And of course that is the definition of a winning genetic strategy.
> 
> Thanks for the support!


By that definition, my father had a "winning genetic strategy" by having me and then ignoring me the rest of my life. 

God, let me please tell everyone who seems to be praising this how really awesome that was for me.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Starstarfish said:


> By that definition, my father had a "winning genetic strategy" by having me and then ignoring me the rest of my life.
> 
> God, let me please tell everyone who seems to be praising this how really awesome that was for me.


I didn't say it was awesome for anyone other than the progenitor.

In fact I pointed out that society paid the bill.

Of course I should also have mentioned that the children often suffer from this strategy too. Thanks for pointing that out.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

tech-novelist said:


> Only if they have women who will indulge with them.
> 
> Whom criminals seem to have no trouble finding.
> 
> Unlike boring accountants and the like.


A large number of those who are criminals have mental health issues like BPD, AD/HD, etc. They often have impulse control issues.

A large number of the women who hang out with them have similar mental health issues. Some of the women are also criminal.

Now put together group of men and women with mental health issues, impulse control issues, and what do you get? A much of people have sex and creating babies.

And these little babies are raised my their mentally ill, criminal parents creating more mentally ill criminal types.

I see it all the time when I go to the side of town that is mostly populated by these types.

I just hope that they do not out breed the rest of us till we have a population that mostly falls into this group. Maybe that’s why such a large part of our population is now in prison, on parole, etc.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Now we really are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Having babies in no way correlates to the amount of sex people are having. What it does reflect is the use or not of birth control. People that work hard and pay their own way understand the cost of child rearing. Criminals who are irresponsible possibly don't care about the cost of raising kids as they either aren't paying it themselves, abandoning the kids, the Govt are paying, their crimes foot the bills.

OP your threads are becoming more and more bitter which is a shame.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> A large number of those who are criminals have mental health issues like BPD, AD/HD, etc. They often have impulse control issues.
> 
> A large number of the women who hang out with them have similar mental health issues. Some of the women are also criminal.
> 
> ...


The other place to see it is to go into education. In the last couple of decades, the demographics have vastly shifted. Among the responsible crowd, the number of children have shrunk to where one to two kids are the norm. Among the irresponsible crowd the number of kids has only increased. (I'm casting a wider net to the non criminal too.) The exceptions are a few religious families.

We see families where a kid bounces from mom to dad. At dad's house they have his kids (from multiple women), GF's kids, and the combined kids. They then go to mom's house where they hang out with another set of siblings, half siblings and BF's kids. The kid gets fed breakfast and lunch at school, even though they qualify for loads of aid. Teachers and administrators have to go to them to have meetings or wait until benefit day because they can't afford the gas to come to school. Often they will have to do the meeting somewhere public because the parent won't let the teacher in the house... I could go on and on.

So what you end up with is an incredible dichotomy where you see 1/4 of the class with 2 professional parents, excelling a large crowd barely getting by and 1/4 of the kids really messed up.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

MrsHolland said:


> Having babies in no way correlates to the amount of sex people are having. What it does reflect is the use or not of birth control. People that work hard and pay their own way understand the cost of child rearing.


Yep. Responsible people plan for the children they have. My wife and I have had an incredible amount of sex and have only had children when we wanted. 

Temporary and permanent birth control is widely available.



MrsHolland said:


> Criminals who are irresponsible possibly don't care about the cost of raising kids as they either aren't paying it themselves, abandoning the kids, *the Govt are paying*, their crimes foot the bills.
> 
> OP your threads are becoming more and more bitter which is a shame.


That's very true among many non-criminals too. Have you seen what is available for low income people with kids? Our state now has excellent healthcare for low income pregnant women and kids. There really is no disincentive financially once you're on aid.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

larry.gray said:


> Yep. Responsible people plan for the children they have. My wife and I have had an incredible amount of sex and have only had children when we wanted.
> 
> Temporary and permanent birth control is widely available.
> 
> ...


Yes true but personally I have no issue funding people that need assistance through hardships. Not to support them for the long term but to help them through the tough times. Our social support system is OK but not fantastic, I would be happy to see all assets taken off criminals and given to people that are truly struggling.

We have free healthcare for everyone one in Aussie regardless of circumstances, it is a system we covert and is what we are used to.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

MrsHolland said:


> Yes true but personally I have no issue funding people that need assistance through hardships. Not to support them for the long term but to help them through the tough times. Our social support system is OK but not fantastic, I would be happy to see all assets taken off criminals and given to people that are truly struggling.
> 
> We have free healthcare for everyone one in Aussie regardless of circumstances, it is a system we covert and is what we are used to.


Criminals generally don't have any assets.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

MrsHolland said:


> Now we really are scraping the bottom of the barrel.
> 
> Having babies in no way correlates to the amount of sex people are having. What it does reflect is the use or not of birth control. People that work hard and pay their own way understand the cost of child rearing. Criminals who are irresponsible possibly don't care about the cost of raising kids as they either aren't paying it themselves, abandoning the kids, the Govt are paying, their crimes foot the bills.
> 
> OP your threads are becoming more and more bitter which is a shame.


Thanks for your concern, but I'm not bitter at all. I have been very fortunate in life and I am thankful for that.

What I'm trying to do is raise awareness of issues that most people don't think about.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

tech-novelist said:


> Criminals generally don't have any assets.


Really? You must have very different criminals in America than we do here.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

tech-novelist said:


> Thanks for your concern, but I'm not bitter at all. I have been very fortunate in life and I am thankful for that.
> 
> What I'm trying to do is raise awareness of issues that most people don't think about.


Awareness of what exactly? That criminals root around without regard for the fallout?


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

MrsHolland said:


> Yes true but personally I have no issue funding people that need assistance through hardships. Not to support them for the long term but to help them through the tough times. Our social support system is OK but not fantastic, I would be happy to see all assets taken off criminals and given to people that are truly struggling.


That's the real rub of the problem that makes any solution incredibly difficult.

Only the most stone hearted people would advocate withdrawing the support. It is a moral duty we share to not leave the innocent among us without basic needs. 

Yet we're greatly dragging down our society by leaving minimal consequence for those who can't support them kid after kid and keep having them anyway. 



MrsHolland said:


> We have free healthcare for everyone one in Aussie regardless of circumstances, it is a system we covert and is what we are used to.


The US is a real hodgepodge. Many states really are bad but in the last 25 years it's gotten pretty good here. I've been in some of the public health clinics (work related) and they are nothing like they used to be. Now they look very much like a regular doctor's office. Mainly this is because it is both well off and liberal here. You can go many places where that's not the case.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

MrsHolland said:


> Really? You must have very different criminals in America than we do here.


Yep. There are only so many Clinton's :surprise: (I kid....)

Sure there are some who manage to stay on top, but for the most part anything that turns serious revenue is either busted by the cops or taken out by competition. 

Most of our criminals are very much on the edge of society.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

larry.gray said:


> Yep. There are only so many Clinton's :surprise: (I kid....)
> 
> Sure there are some who manage to stay on top, but for the most part anything that turns serious revenue is either busted by the cops or taken out by competition.
> 
> Most of our criminals are very much on the edge of society.


Lots of dollars from drugs here.
White collar crime.
Money laundering.
Illegal sports betting/fixing
etc
Come to Aussie, a great place to get very wealthy if you are a criminal.

Of course we also have the subsistence and opportunist criminals.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

larry.gray said:


> That's the real rub of the problem that makes any solution incredibly difficult.
> 
> Only the most stone hearted people would advocate withdrawing the support. It is a moral duty we share to not leave the innocent among us without basic needs.
> 
> Yet we're greatly dragging down our society by leaving minimal consequence for those who can't support them kid after kid and keep having them anyway.


There's a very simple solution to this problem: orphanages. This eliminates the moral hazard of women being paid for having children they can't support.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

MrsHolland said:


> Lots of dollars from drugs here.
> White collar crime.
> Money laundering.
> Illegal sports betting/fixing
> ...


There is a solution to all those problems: legalize "victimless crimes". Then those people wouldn't be considered criminals in the first place.


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