# 19 months. No sex. 7 conclusions.



## mousecat (Nov 28, 2011)

I am coming up to 19 months without sex, in my marriage.

I have realised a few things during this depressing time in my life. I thought I would share my conclusions.

1. It is not possible to talk about this issue with my wife, because doing so makes it worse and "puts her under pressure".

2. My being miserable about my sexless marriage "makes me unattractive".... Unfortunately I am not able to plaster on a fake smile while my balls are blue and my heart is breaking.

3. It is not possible for me to attempt to initiate sex, EVER, as doing so "puts her under pressure".

4. It is not possible for me to talk about the depression or misery that sexual frustration causes me, as doing so "puts her under pressure".

5. Nothing I do, absolutely nothing, will make any difference to her sex drive. And believe me I have tried everything. The harder I try, the more it "puts her under pressure".

6. In order for her to initiate sex, every single thing in the world must first be perfect. There must be no worries, no stresses, no tiredness, no distraction, not one thing in her head besides sex.... And this situation comes about roughly once per 150 years.

7. She does not care at all about this issue. Or if she does, its not enough to make any effort whatsoever to solve it.

In summary, I've given up. I will probably never have sex again, and the more I try to solve it, the worse it will become. So I am giving up. Might as well go and join a monastery.

F*ck it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Take a look at this thread..

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...12-signs-youre-headed-divorce.html#post552309


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

mousecat said:


> I am coming up to 19 months without sex, in my marriage.
> 
> I have realised a few things during this depressing time in my life. I thought I would share my conclusions.
> 
> ...


I don't understand people who behave as she is behaving. Some men do this as well by the way.

If she is not willing to discuss what is bothering her and you, then she does not care about the marriage.

I'd love to have her come here and post because I'd love to know what goes through the mind when a person behaves this way.

There are two sides to every story. But right now, from what you say it sounds like divorce or celebacy are your only choices.

Have you tried starting to get on with your life? Doing a 180 at least to some extent?


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## Skate Daddy 9 (Sep 19, 2011)

I have been in your shoes and I know your pain. Things changed for me when I decided to live to make me happy. I stopped letting my wife control how I felt, instead of spending every night trying to do the things I thought would get me some action I started doing what made me happy. Going to bed early, getting up early and exercising, working on the projects I wanted to finish, hanging out with the kids more. It has been very liberating to let go of that hold she had on me for so long and it has made or relationship and sex life better (not more frequent per say but better). Again I know what you are going threw but only you can make you happy so let go of the hold she has on you.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

You should find out how being served divorce papers "Puts her under pressure".

Maybe then she`ll have a standard for comparing "real" pressure.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Married Man Sex Life


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## square1 (Oct 31, 2011)

I agree with doing things that make you happy and don't focus on doing everything to fulfill her needs if she isn't willing to fulfill yours or even discuss it with you to maybe find some middle ground.

To me sex is very important in a marriage it is a bond that you can only get with your h/w. You share yourself with them and they do the same. When sex/intimacy in my marriage started to dwindle (granted not to your extent but enough to cause me concern) I decided I wasnt going to keep doing things on a daily basis for him. No more cleaning everyday (by day 3 he started with the its a mess comments my reply was "well better start cleaning then" and i would go into another room) stopped making lunch for him everyday for work, stopped asking how his day was (he barely ever uttered these words to me), I even started watching tv in another room when before I would watch whatever he wanted with him to have quality time even though he didn't really speak to me during it. So when my need for intimacy went unfulfilled his needs started being pushed aside in my book.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

tacoma said:


> You should find out how being served divorce papers "Puts her under pressure".
> 
> Maybe then she`ll have a standard for comparing "real" pressure.


You should also find out if that "makes you attractive"


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## Flower25 (Jan 9, 2012)

Mousecat--

That sounds like a tough situation...

And I imagine the "sex conversation" just devolves into an argument that leaves both parties feeling angry, hurt, and upset.

I think, were I in your shoes, I would sit down with her and talk about the marriage as a whole (leaving out the sex part, for now) and find out her views. Is she still happy? Does she feel that something is missing? Does she even want to be married any more?

Obviously, if she feels the marriage is completely wonderful as is - then you would be left with your options above.

But chances are good that she is not happy either...and if you two can start working on some of those other issues together, I think it will be easier to start working on the sex issues, too.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Leave her. Then she's pressure free.

How selfish of her to put her needs always first..."under pressure"? What a cop out.

Sorry your balls are blue.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

tacoma said:


> You should find out how being served divorce papers "Puts her under pressure".
> 
> Maybe then she`ll have a standard for comparing "real" pressure.


If he wants to divorce her because she refuses to meet his needs, he should divorce her. But using the threat of divorce to get laid seems worse than unseemly. And it pretty much guarantees bad sex (unless you're the type who gets off on sex under duress).

Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather jerk off (and possibly divorce) than have to resort to threats in order to get some.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

square1 said:


> I agree with doing things that make you happy and don't focus on doing everything to fulfill her needs if she isn't willing to fulfill yours or even discuss it with you to maybe find some middle ground.
> 
> To me sex is very important in a marriage it is a bond that you can only get with your h/w. You share yourself with them and they do the same. When sex/intimacy in my marriage started to dwindle (granted not to your extent but enough to cause me concern) I decided I wasnt going to keep doing things on a daily basis for him. No more cleaning everyday (by day 3 he started with the its a mess comments my reply was "well better start cleaning then" and i would go into another room) stopped making lunch for him everyday for work, stopped asking how his day was (he barely ever uttered these words to me), I even started watching tv in another room when before I would watch whatever he wanted with him to have quality time even though he didn't really speak to me during it. So when my need for intimacy went unfulfilled his needs started being pushed aside in my book.


How did that work out? Has he started to meet your needs more? Or are you just doing less for him now?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Those are just excuses on her part. The brutal truth is she doesn't like want or need sex. Period. End of story. I used to believe this was her form of near psychotic cruelty. But it's not, or at least not solely. The real underlying issue is that she doesn't have any interest in any form of physical contact at all. And the few times she's consented is to get something on her long range plan, be it to get you to marry her, impregnate her, etc. Beyond that, it's like going to college. You do it once, graduate and move on. It's not like putting gas in the car, at all. There's still an amount of hatred or indifference behind that but it's not primary. To me, the deepest insult is not that she's cold and sexless and indifferent, it's that she wasn't honest about it.


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## square1 (Oct 31, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> How did that work out? Has he started to meet your needs more? Or are you just doing less for him now?


It actually worked pretty good. After about 2-3 weeks he wanted to talk. That usually never happens. I told him (again) what i felt was lacking and he seemed to really listen this time. He's been more open to talking with me, kissing me everyday (before he kissed me 5 times in 6 months), we have sex 6 days a week, he helps me more around the house, brings me random little gifts (nothing major just silly things he knows i like, like a certain candy or a flower)


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## BeachGuy (Jul 6, 2011)

tacoma said:


> You should find out how being served divorce papers "Puts her under pressure".
> 
> Maybe then she`ll have a standard for comparing "real" pressure.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

To use that saying "It puts me under pressure" is wrong.

That's saying, "I don't want to talk,think, or worry about it. It's not my problem. Leave me alone."

In a marriage, even if you dont' want to have sex, at least have the decency to TELL your partner the truth and/or the reasons...and maybe think of solutions.

But to shut him down with "you're putting me under pressure" is wrong. Makes me want to slap the sentence out of her mouth. It's emotionally abusive and a stupid power play on her part.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

square1 said:


> It actually worked pretty good. After about 2-3 weeks he wanted to talk. That usually never happens. I told him (again) what i felt was lacking and he seemed to really listen this time. He's been more open to talking with me, kissing me everyday (before he kissed me 5 times in 6 months), we have sex 6 days a week, he helps me more around the house, brings me random little gifts (nothing major just silly things he knows i like, like a certain candy or a flower)


We often teach our spouses how to treat us... what we will accept. Looks like it worked for you. Perhaps the OP should give your appoach a try.

By the way.. what you did follows the Divorce Busting idea of a 180... Changing your behavior will cause your spouse to change their behavior.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

mousecat said:


> In summary, I've given up. I will probably never have sex again, and the more I try to solve it, the worse it will become. So I am giving up. Might as well go and join a monastery.
> 
> F*ck it.


Many husbands have convinced themselves that their wives' indifference to sex meant they were simply frigid and nothing could be done. All we can say for sure is that your wife is disinterested in sex _with you._

If you assume that she is simply not interested in you, and start trying to groom yourself to be attractive to her, your sex life may well improve. If not, at least you'll be more attractive when you get back onto the single scene.

Good luck.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Many husbands have convinced themselves that their wives' indifference to sex meant they were simply frigid and nothing could be done. All we can say for sure is that your wife is disinterested in sex _with you._
> 
> If you assume that she is simply not interested in you, and start trying to groom yourself to be attractive to her, your sex life may well improve. If not, at least you'll be more attractive when you get back onto the single scene.
> 
> Good luck.


Not gonna work. Him being more attractive is just going to "put pressure on her"


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## Jwayne (Dec 4, 2011)

This story is so like many other stories on here. Why does it seem so difficult? I've told my wife about my needs and of course, she comes right back with, "well, I have needs to", and "you wont talk to me", stuff. Well, the problem is, after I go week in and week out without sex, the talking is going to stop and the frustration builds. To me, it's such a simple answer, just please your man or your woman, and everything would be better. Just do it. I really don't understand why my wife, like so many other women, refuse to just please their man. Maybe it comes down to this one simple word, Love. Maybe that's the problem, the Love isn't there.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Jwayne said:


> This story is so like many other stories on here. Why does it seem so difficult? I've told my wife about my needs and of course, she comes right back with, "well, I have needs to", and "you wont talk to me", stuff. Well, the problem is, after I go week in and week out without sex, the talking is going to stop and the frustration builds. To me, it's such a simple answer, just please your man or your woman, and everything would be better. Just do it. I really don't understand why my wife, like so many other women, refuse to just please their man. Maybe it comes down to this one simple word, Love. Maybe that's the problem, the Love isn't there.


Well, that comes from both sides.

You aren't meeting your wife's need for conversation/closeness...obviously. that's why she says that to you when you say you have needs.

My husband meets my needs for conversation/closeness even though I know it's not his favorite thing. But he does it and it makes me happy and makes us closer.

And the sex is plentiful and good.

Women aren't just vaginas. You gotta love the whole being.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Well, that comes from both sides.
> 
> You aren't meeting your wife's need for conversation/closeness...obviously. that's why she says that to you when you say you have needs.
> 
> ...


By the same token, women have to love the whole being of their husbands, too, and that includes the sticky-out bit down below!


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## Jwayne (Dec 4, 2011)

that girl:
Is that like saying, "Men aren't just conversationalist; you gotta love on them some. I think that can go both ways.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Jwayne said:


> that girl:
> Is that like saying, "Men aren't just conversationalist; you gotta love on them some. I think that can go both ways.


Well, then you'll be at this standstill until one of you takes the higher road and gives in to the other's needs first.

I was like your wife for a long time. Sucked. I didn't want to be, but it happened because I felt ignored by my husband and why should I sleep with him when he doesn't even really know me? 

Then he left...because of my behaviour to him. And I didn't get angry. I simply changed and started treating him the way I wanted to treat him. I removed my ego and said, "to hell with it! I love him and I'll treat him accordingly."

And wouldn't you know he moved home 3 months later (after i was in therapy working on my issues that I had) and we've been meeting each other's needs since. He's so in tune with me now and it's amazing.

If we'd been like you and your wife...just letting the resentment build and build and let our egos get in the way, we'd be on our way to divorce.

Your choice. Someone has to break the ice.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> By the same token, women have to love the whole being of their husbands, too, and that includes the sticky-out bit down below!


I love that sticky-out-bit!  I love his ass too. It's so cute.


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## Jwayne (Dec 4, 2011)

And I'm telling everyone, if the sex is good, I'll talk and carry on any conversation a woman desires. If my wife could give me that, she would get conversation, house cleaning, text throughout the day, on and on and on........ just make me happy in the bedroom and the world would be right.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Jwayne said:


> And I'm telling everyone, if the sex is good, I'll talk and carry on any conversation a woman desires. If my wife could give me that, she would get conversation, house cleaning, text throughout the day, on and on and on........ just make me happy in the bedroom and the world would be right.


Stop.

Why not sit her down and talk with her first? Meet that need of hers and she'll meet yours.

Oh, your ego too big? So you'll give her what she needs once she gives you what you need?

Sounds pretty selfish to me. Like I said, someone has to take the high road. Looks like you'll be at this standstill for a long time until you get over your ego.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

There was an interesting thread here recently. I wish I could find it. A husband came here complaining about no, or little sex. His post made her seem like a real cold fish.

Well she got on and responded... she gave her side of the story. 

I don’t remember all that she said, but I do remember a couple of things. One was that she had to get up early for her job so she went to bed early. He went to bed late. Then at about 2am he’d wake her up and want sex. At that time he had BO and bad breath… and she was tried.

Well yea, that makes sense. Maybe he should put more effort into it… go to bed earlier with her and fool around… schedule things such that she gets enough sleep to go to work. He cared so little about this that he did not even shower or brush his teeth before trying to get it on? Yuk.

I can relate to all of those things. They are all turn offs. 

There were more things she brought up but I don’t remember the others. Basically… there are two sides to every story. After she gave her side, he look a lot more uncaring and selfish.


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## Jwayne (Dec 4, 2011)

That girl: We're going to start marriage counseling, but I'm going to talk my a** off for the next several weeks and see if anything changes. If not, then I'll know what I need to do and that's move out for a while.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I don't suggest marriage counseling. Why? Cause it just drags up the issues.

You should be moving forward. Just show interest in your wife. She misses that. I sure did. 

Hubs and I always had a good sex life...I just treated him wrong.

Just show interest and help out. Because even if there is no sex, it's still your home...unless she doesn't work? I work full time *but not today, woot!*


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## Jwayne (Dec 4, 2011)

Well, I guess the hard part is fighting through the anger and resentment enough to want to talk with her. That's a hurdle. One thing I am trying to do is to convince myself that the past is the past. What happened yesterday is done and over. My anger can't change anything. I have to keep forgetting yesterday and focus on today and the future.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jwayne said:


> And I'm telling everyone, if the sex is good, I'll talk and carry on any conversation a woman desires. If my wife could give me that, she would get conversation, house cleaning, text throughout the day, on and on and on........ just make me happy in the bedroom and the world would be right.


The issue with women is that we are a lot more complicated. We need for things with our husband to be good in order to feel like having sex. We need the conversation, the non-sexual touch, we need emotional support and even help with the kids. 

It's all a form of fore-play to women. The husband has to weave himself into as much of our pshyce as he can. We cannot help it... that's how we are wired.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Jwayne said:


> Well, I guess the hard part is fighting through the anger and resentment enough to want to talk with her. That's a hurdle.


VERY MUCH SO!

Yes.

Very much so.

I have been there. I remember being so sad because I resented Hubs and I would think,"Why should I do xyz when he doesn't even act like he cares!!"

That was my ego. that wasn't love.

After he left, I started doing xyz on my own for him and he started showing he cared.

Someone has to break the ice.

Ego has no place in love.

Don't be a doormat, but don't kill your love with resentment and anger.

You can even say that to her..."I am angry and sad and resentful about the fact that we are rarely sexually intimate. But I am willing to work on meeting your needs because that is how I expect to be treated as well. If no one offers the olive branch, we will never get better. I want us to get better."

Then just man up and make your marriage better.

If she's not receptive after lets say, a month, then say again, "Well, I have tried to meet your needs and still feel neglected. I am not feeling close to you and in a marriage, we should be close on all levels. This isn't the marriage I want." Or something along those lines. Don't bring up divorce, that's cruel.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jwayne said:


> Well, I guess the hard part is fighting through the anger and resentment enough to want to talk with her. That's a hurdle. One thing I am trying to do is to convince myself that the past is the past. What happened yesterday is done and over. My anger can't change anything. I have to keep forgetting yesterday and focus on today and the future.


Before she shut down the sex, how many hours a week did you two spend together doing date-like things... cuddling, going for a walk while holding hands, out to dinner... a wide range of things but focused on each other?


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

mousecat said:


> I am coming up to 19 months without sex, in my marriage.
> 
> I have realised a few things during this depressing time in my life. I thought I would share my conclusions.
> 
> ...


HA!!! I kid you not....you are married to my wife! The window of opportunity was so small.....it might as well not exist (I'm going on 23 months, myself.) I feel for you. I don't have a solution....but....just don't turn to porn...cause...apparently...THAT will cause your wife self-esteem issues. You can't get it from your wife....but don't DARE try to releive the pressure. You wouldn't want to hurt her feelings, or anything.


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## Jwayne (Dec 4, 2011)

Elegirl:You know, when I think back to when we first met, my looks alone were enough to get her to want sex, after marriage and 2 kids, that doesn't work anymore. If this marriage doesn't work out, I'll probably stay away from marriage again and just switch girlfriends ever 3 or 4 years until the new wears off. That way, I don't have to try and figure out the emotional needs cross -word puzzle just to have some fun. lol....


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

My husband's looks are one thing, but when he sits with me after dinner and we share a beer and just bullshet about our day, that's when I start thinking how badly I want to suck his.....


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## Jwayne (Dec 4, 2011)

Elegirl: With 2 young boys, we don't have a lot of opportunity for the date stuff. Actually, I don't know her that well anymore. 7 days a week, 12 months a year of raising kids.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

We have 2 kids.

We hang out when they go to bed. Really hang out. It's fun. I look forward to it every day


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## Jwayne (Dec 4, 2011)

That girl: I really didn't need to hear that..........lol


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Jwayne said:


> That girl: I really didn't need to hear that..........lol


:scratchhead:


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## Jwayne (Dec 4, 2011)

It's hard to read about how someone likes to please their man when I'm sitting here starving to death. If you know what I mean.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jwayne said:


> Elegirl:You know, when I think back to when we first met, my looks alone were enough to get her to want sex, after marriage and 2 kids, that doesn't work anymore. If this marriage doesn't work out, I'll probably stay away from marriage again and just switch girlfriends ever 3 or 4 years until the new wears off. That way, I don't have to try and figure out the emotional needs cross -word puzzle just to have some fun. lol....


Oh I understand exactly what you mean about the 3-4 year switch off. I'm considering the same thing in my situation. Don't now why I'm still here. Cannot figure out what he needs and he will not talk about anything. All he says is everything is ok.. it's not ok. Not my a long shot.

Of course it's more fun when everything is new. We (male and female) are programmed such that when a relationship is new our bodies put out all kinds of happy chemicals. We are acutally high... as good as on happy pills. But over time our bodies stop making those chemicals. And then we are face with having to meet those pesky needs.

There is a way to get more passion in your marriage. Have you ever read the books in my signature block listed under building a passionate marriage? What they say to do works if you work at it... at first it ony takes on... over time the other must join the effort. Of course it's best if both will do the work from the start together.

But if one spouse refuses, like my husband, then I guess it's time to leave.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Jwayne said:


> It's hard to read about how someone likes to please their man when I'm sitting here starving to death. If you know what I mean.


But you can turn the tides.

You really can. You just have to let go of your pride and ego. Nothing wrong with treating someone how you want to be treated. Just give up this standstill and battle.

I'm not saying be her lapdog, but tonight, when the kids go to bed, grab a beer (or whatever) for the both of you and just chill together. If she asks whats up...cause she will...just say you missed her. Snuggle her, etc but don't make a sexual move. Just get to know her again. Date her, if you will...but at home.

I did this with my husband...well, not the sex...but other things and it worked. I treated him how he should be treated and in turn, my needs were met by him.

Had I just held on to my pride and my "rightness", I swear he'd still be in his apartment and we'd be on our road to disaster.

It's much easier to just meet other's needs because you love them, than to harbor anger and resentment.

For the record, my husband did NONE of the work for 2 months.

It wasn't until the 3rd month, when my change was constant, that he began to change. Now, I have this ideal husband and I wonder if it's for real LOL! Never happy. hahaha kidding...I appreciate every moment with him.


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## Jwayne (Dec 4, 2011)

Yeah, if I take this approach, at least I know that I tried. I'm going to log off for while because I've got to get my work-out in. I've still got to look good without a shirt when I do become single.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Psyche


Jwayne said:


> Elegirl: With 2 young boys, we don't have a lot of opportunity for the date stuff. Actually, I don't know her that well anymore. 7 days a week, 12 months a year of raising kids.


Well you did not answer my question exactly. But I think I can mathematically derive the answer from your word problem… the answer is ZERO or NEAR ZERO (is “near zero” a math term ) 

That right there is the problem with your marriage. The two of you stopped spending time together. To maintain a passionate marriage a couple needs to spend about 15 hours a week together alone. A lot of couples do not get this. They have children and the children take center stage. It’s not good for the children and it’s not good for the parents. Children should be in bed early every night. Then mom and dad get their own personal time. And on weekends mom and dad need one or two dates. For some reason marriage has become some child centered that the couple forgets to keep their own love going.

It’s like on the airplane when they tell people to put their own oxygen mask on first and then put the mask on their child. Parents have to take care of the marriage first. Because if they don’t the children loose the stability of a good family life.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jwayne said:


> Yeah, if I take this approach, at least I know that I tried. I'm going to log off for while because I've got to get my work-out in. I've still got to look good without a shirt when I do become single.


:rofl:

Or when you win her heart back.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

that_girl said:


> But you can turn the tides.
> 
> You really can. You just have to let go of your pride and ego. Nothing wrong with treating someone how you want to be treated. Just give up this standstill and battle.
> 
> ...


:iagree: Smart cookie!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yea, if you're planning on being single, you won't be sincere in trying.

DO try...not for your own gain, but to meet her needs. 

And yea, have the kids in bed by 8:30. lol Ours are and they are 3 and 12. Then we hang out til about 10:30 or 11 and go to bed together...then go to sleep around 11:30


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> If he wants to divorce her because she refuses to meet his needs, he should divorce her. But using the threat of divorce to get laid seems worse than unseemly. And it pretty much guarantees bad sex (unless you're the type who gets off on sex under duress).
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather jerk off (and possibly divorce) than have to resort to threats in order to get some.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn`t say a thing about any "threat".

I advised the OP to divorce her...period.


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## brendan (Jun 1, 2011)

mouse cat: could have sworn i wrote that post.

im exactly same as you (28)

went to counsellor and wife has depression as i guess yours prob does. but counsellor hardly talked about sex.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

that_girl said:


> But you can turn the tides.
> 
> You really can. You just have to let go of your pride and ego. Nothing wrong with treating someone how you want to be treated. Just give up this standstill and battle.
> 
> ...


There are a number of reasons why people don't just turn around and meet the other partner's needs unilaterally when this situation arises

First, it's become a habit. And it's a hard habit to break, I guess.

Second, lots of people would rather be right than happy, so don't see why they should have to make the first move. That would imply they were "wrong" and if you're that sort of personality and / or in a relationship where scores are kept, this ain't happening.

Third, a suspect a lot of people think, "Well, if I do make the first move and meet their needs, and they still don't meet mine, then what?" At this point, they'd feel like an idiot - after all, the other person has got them to meet their needs, and they've done nothing. The partner who made the first move would feel they've been played for a fool, and given up their bargaining position for nothing. 

And yes, marriage is supposed to be about love and trust, and if you can't make the first move out of love etc etc, but in a relationship like this, do all the things that happen in an "ideal" situation apply? People in these situations are seeing their marriages less like a fairy tale, and more like a Sam Peckinpah film


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## Anubis (Jul 12, 2011)

that_girl said:


> But you can turn the tides.
> 
> You really can. You just have to let go of your pride and ego. Nothing wrong with treating someone how you want to be treated. Just give up this standstill and battle.


I have a lot of trouble with this. Why is it so hard to say, _baring additional significant factors not given here _(i.e. taking the OP at face value), that she has decided she doesn't give a flip about him and is just using him? Because the odds are 99 to 1 that is the case.

I can promise you that the OP has tried, numerous times during the last 19 months, to 'turn the tides' and has pulled his hair out trying to think of new things to try.

Is regular sexual relations without having to move heaven and earth NOT a reasonable thing to expect in a marriage? Why do you seem to want to insist that the problem is with him (the OP) without any information to support that? 

What if the genders were reversed here? Would you give the same advice to the exact same post?

You said for him to say to her "I am angry, etc..." He's already said whenever he says anything to her, she plays the pressure card. Why would that be different? I know we see things filtered through our own experiences, and you said in your case it took 2 to 3 month before change began. That's a far cry from 19 months - is 19 months not a giant red flag?

I'm not trying to come down on you tg - I like and respect most of what you post. I just want to understand why so often here I see posts that basically read "I've banging my head against a wall for 24 months and all I get is a headache. How do i make it stop?" and then responses that read "keep banging your head, and you will eventually feel better". Isn't one definition of insanity 'doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results'? (Albert Einstein I believe). Is it just a desire to error on the side of not blowing things up? Seriously, I want to know....

/I must be up past my bedtime.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Jwayne said:


> that girl:
> Is that like saying, " Men aren't just conversationalist; you gotta love on them some. I think that can go both ways.


This will get the same blame men comments but anywhoooo

Do you think you are non-conversationalist when you talk to her about your need for sex? How about just before you want sex or are having sex? 

"Women aren't just non conversationalist; you gotta love on them some." can you do that for your wife? You may consider your wifes need for communication, attension and companionship as jumping through hoops and as an attempt to control but it is a real need for many women to stay connected and want to have sex. 

You can not imagine how dispiriting it is to see the loving, communicative, and attentive side of a husband only when he wants sex. The abrupt change is not lost on most women. 

That may be what your wife means when she answers with "i have needs too" when you talk to her about your needs. Your seeming easy dismissal of her need for attension and companionship because you are a man may be one problem. In a sense, your expectation that she "just do it" is asking her to do something you yourself can not do, don't you think? . 

Compared to the post by men about sex, there are few post by women about our need for companionship, communication and attention. The few anguished post from women that do show up are jut as sad as men posting about sex. One of the first question to the poster gers is how much sex does he get. Isn't that blaming women? 

I think there is a pervasive lack of understanding of what men and women need in loving relationships. Needs that were once met in abundance in the honeymoon stage, is virtually absent as each persont falls into complacency. What was once enthusiastic sex, becomes a desert battleground. What was once romance, communication, attentiveness and companionship becomes a bother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Anubis said:


> I have a lot of trouble with this. Why is it so hard to say, _baring additional significant factors not given here _(i.e. taking the OP at face value), that she has decided she doesn't give a flip about him and is just using him? Because the odds are 99 to 1 that is the case.
> 
> I can promise you that the OP has tried, numerous times during the last 19 months, to 'turn the tides' and has pulled his hair out trying to think of new things to try.
> 
> ...


I would give the exact advice to a woman because I turned the tides in my own marriage...as a woman who's husband was so distant, I hardly knew him anymore.

How do you know the OP's delivery of his version of "turning the tides"? Whining, demanding, betching about things doesn't turn anything...it just builds more resentment.

My 2-3 months of tide turning was after about a year of my husband's apathetic distance.

Like myself, he seems to be going into this for HIMSELF. What HE wants, what HE needs...I was once the same.

Then I just focused on what my husband wanted and needed...not to be a doormat, but to show empathy and true compassion for my husband. When I let go of my ego, he was able to let me in.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

> You can not imagine how dispiriting it is to see the loving, communicative, and attentive side of a husband only when he wants sex. The abrupt change is not lost on most women.


I never felt more of a wh0re or a used piece of crap than when my husband only touched/talked to/took interest in me just when he wanted sex. I hated that. It seemed so fake. So contrived. So disturbing and it just made me pull away from him.

Now we relate throughout the day about everything so when we go to bed....it's on


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> There are a number of reasons why people don't just turn around and meet the other partner's needs unilaterally when this situation arises
> 
> First, it's become a habit. And it's a hard habit to break, I guess.
> 
> ...


So, ok. So never make the first move, have a standstill forever, or until divorce and NEVER let your ego go. 

lol. 

If you make the first move and nothing happens, then you have your answer. No? I dunno. I just don't see how living in this standstill is productive for anyone. But I guess being right is more important.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> By the same token, women have to love the whole being of their husbands, too, and that includes the sticky-out bit down below!


What is happening with the OP is not that he refuses to meet his wife's reasonable needs; it is her definition of reasonable (for him and her). The OP said his wife will have sex but under optimal conditions. I'd bet that she expects daily attention, and not see any disconnect between this and the sex frequency.

To the OP: my ex was like this. The sex _averaged_ once a month, and she was lazy about it. Typical was the monthly sympathy lay ("my period's coming so it's time to take care of you" - how attractive). That might seem comparatively high, but it was due to her needing me to want her (both because it kept me doing more for her and for the ego boost).

Our common thread is that everything was about her. Sex was not something earned or deserved; it was meted out based on her need to keep me on the hook or feel like a good wife. But, she expected daily attention. Her justification was that marriage is about serving the wife; getting tended every day felt good so she was entitled to it. Sex was the opposite; if I complained about frequency or style I was forgetting that it was about her and was ungrateful for what I did get (and she would refuse).

Interestingly, she knew this attitude was out of step with the vast majority of people. But, rather than explore this dynamic, she simply refused to discuss and tried to keep me in the dark (refused to go to counseling, discouraged me from seeking my own counsel, shunning sexually open friends and relatives). *It was not until I refused to be disregarded that this changed. This points the way to changing your dynamic too.*

The first thing you need to do is have one last chance at an open dialogue. Do something like "I perceive a large gap in what we each put into the marriage. I assumed that we both were willing to accept much stress and inconveniece to please the other. But what I am seeing appears inconsistent with this, and sweeping this issue under the rug is no longer an option.

If she refuses, then offer to go to couples counseling. If she then refuses that, tell her you will go by yourself (both to see what you might be missing and to get input on how to deal with her in a healthy - for you - manner). Does she have any influential people in her life to whom you could provide some details (like an individual counselor or priest / pastor)?

The third thing you need to do is simply pull back and let her endure the natural consequences of her actions? You know most people suck it up and cheerfully handle these issues - why should she be any different (and why are you any less worthy)? Do more for yourself (and your kids if any) and be around less for her. If she questions or complains, explain simply that you are seeking / restoring balance - regardless of whatever else is running through your mind, she knows her treatment of you is not balanced and the message will be delivered clearly.

The ultimate goal of course is to force her to a decision point. She could just sit there and accept a diminished role in your life, but that's unlikely. She will do more for you (either because she gets into a better frame of mind regarding sex or because she knows it is the price of keeping you around) or she will decide she's better off alone. Either way you win.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> The issue with women is that we are a lot more complicated. We need for things with our husband to be good in order to feel like having sex. We need the conversation, the non-sexual touch, we need emotional support and even help with the kids.
> 
> It's all a form of fore-play to women. The husband has to weave himself into as much of our pshyce as he can. We cannot help it... that's how we are wired.


Agree, to an extent. There is a difference between reasonable needs and unreasonable needs. A woman wanting to feel valued as more than a mother, housekeeper, sex partner: reasonable. A woman (like the OP's wife) wanting a stress-free life and sex only under optimal circumstances (instead of being willing to carve out time for it and ignore other things in her life): unreasonable.

There is never enough time or money to do everything we want to do - that is an essential truth of life. Nobody gets everything they want all the time. For a woman who simply never feels moved to have sex, she simply needs to take a step back and say "I don't feel like it but I'm going to rock his world anyways because he's earned it".


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## The_Good_Wife (Jan 13, 2012)

Wow! How long have u been married?
How was your sex life in the beginning?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

that_girl said:


> If she's not receptive after lets say, a month, then say again, "Well, I have tried to meet your needs and still feel neglected. I am not feeling close to you and in a marriage, we should be close on all levels. This isn't the marriage I want." Or something along those lines. Don't bring up divorce, that's cruel.


Agree on not being a doormat and putting a time limit on the selfless service.

But, why is mentioning divorce cruel? Is it the actual word that is cruel and he should phrase it more delicately? Clearly, she should know how much this bothers him, before he just bails out.
Or, are you suggesting that this should not be a deal-breaker - that in the end he should not end the marriage over bad sex / no sex (I ask because some people do think this)?

Personally, I think that she should know that the marriage will not last as it currently exists. That is not the same as saying "this is not the marriage I want", to which she could say "well I did not picture it this way either" and change nothing.

Kinda confused and looking for your input.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DailyGrind said:


> HA!!! I kid you not....you are married to my wife! The window of opportunity was so small.....it might as well not exist (I'm going on 23 months, myself.) I feel for you. I don't have a solution....but....just don't turn to porn...cause...apparently...THAT will cause your wife self-esteem issues. You can't get it from your wife....but don't DARE try to releive the pressure. You wouldn't want to hurt her feelings, or anything.


Yah, that's just crap.

Seriously, you should avoid porn because (1) it may be wrong depending on your value system, (2) it will just give her another reason to avoid addressing the issue, and (3) it will only further frustrate you by pointing out what you aren't getting.

IMO, if you are a decent husband and your wife goes 2 years without providing she should feel guilty and inferior, because she is. Whatever happened to be accountable and using feelings of "everyone else can manage" to try harder rather than complain about how unfair the world is?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

DTO said:


> Agree on not being a doormat and putting a time limit on the selfless service.
> 
> But, why is mentioning divorce cruel? Is it the actual word that is cruel and he should phrase it more delicately? Clearly, she should know how much this bothers him, before he just bails out.
> Or, are you suggesting that this should not be a deal-breaker - that in the end he should not end the marriage over bad sex / no sex (I ask because some people do think this)?
> ...


Well, it's only cruel to use divorce as a threat. 

If you intend to follow through to the end and get the divorce, then it's not cruel.

However, to use it to manipulate change, is wrong, imo.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I think there is a pervasive lack of understanding of what men and women need in loving relationships. Needs that were once met in abundance in the honeymoon stage, is virtually absent as each persont falls into complacency. What was once enthusiastic sex, becomes a desert battleground. What was once romance, communication, attentiveness and companionship becomes a bother.


Strongly disagree.

People don't forget what is needed from / for each gender to feel good about the relationship. What does happen far more frequently is that one partner decides that mutual (equal) effort is not the way forward. In essence, he or she decides that "I do not like her or him enough to give as much as I get".

That's why these guys are in this boat. The woman's response to "she does not put in the effort to meet my needs" often times is "I have needs - you have wants", "sex is a reward for me feeling good, not something you earn", or "one sexual encounter is appropriate for a month of serving me".

And, yeah I know some guys do the same thing. But we are talking about refusing women here. The key is separate the ones who truly don't get their needs met either (or are honestly clueless that a guy deserves just as much time and attention as a woman) and those who would rather be single than give back as much as they get.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Well, it's only cruel to use divorce as a threat.
> 
> If you intend to follow through to the end and get the divorce, then it's not cruel.
> 
> However, to use it to manipulate change, is wrong, imo.


Okay, that makes sense, and I agree.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

The_Good_Wife said:


> Wow! How long have u been married?
> How was your sex life in the beginning?


I see this popped up after I made a few posts.

So I'm curious if this is directed at me or someone else.


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## The_Good_Wife (Jan 13, 2012)

DTO it was directed to mousecat. 
But you can also feel free to answer


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I think there is a pervasive lack of understanding of what men and women need in loving relationships. Needs that were once met in abundance in the honeymoon stage, is virtually absent as each persont falls into complacency. What was once enthusiastic sex, becomes a desert battleground. What was once romance, communication, attentiveness and companionship becomes a bother.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you're right.

Further, I suspect that if you sat down a nice wide selection of people of both sexes in this position and said "What did you do early on that you aren't doing now?", that lots of them, of both sexes, would shrug, scratch their heads and say:
"I Dunno...".

I think of it like people who reached the "unconscious competence" stage without ever going through the earlier stages of learning. They did it right, but have no idea what or how or why what they were doing was effective. And because it worked without thinking about it, they paid it no mind, and when it stopped working they had no idea why!


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## mousecat (Nov 28, 2011)

Wow, I did not expect so many replies, so quickly. Here is a brief response to the excellent points raised:

*Divorce her*- You know, if it weren't for our baby then I would seriously consider it. But there is so much to lose in a divorce. My darling son for a start. And then half of my money and my house. Everything I've worked for, earned, all by myself (that's right, she hasn't paid for any of it). Not to mention I can't bear the thought of our family breaking apart. It would be devastating, but it remains an option as a last resort. What scares me is if this continues another 2, 3 years we could end up fighting about sex in front of our child and I don't want that to happen.

*Porn* - so very tempting, but as somebody said, it would only frustrate me more and make me more aware of what I'm missing. I've been fighting a battle with myself against masturbation and it's killing me to hold back, but I'm restraining myself in the dim hope that it will 'pay off' one day. I know it's hopeless, but I like to fantasise that one day we'll have a spontaneous mind blowing sex session and all of this will go away in a huge orgasmic moment of mutual pleasure that makes everything alright. I'm kidding myself, of course. That will not happen.

*Keep on trying* - nope, I've already tried everything. I do not wish to continue banging my head against the wall, as it's no solution to my sore head.

*Sit her down and talk* - I love when people suggest this because they obviously haven't read my post, or have missed the whole point of it: Talking is not possible, and I have tried it many times, in various contexts, in bed, out of bed, calmly, angrily, you name it. It just "Puts her under pressure" (her words) and leads to arguments. Every. Single. Time. 

This morning she said "You seem sad, what's wrong?". I answered flatly, "I have not had sex in 19 months. That's why I am sad." A huge argument followed and I ended up sobbing in my car for 10 minutes before driving to work.

*What about her needs?* - she is unable or unwilling to tell me what these are, and cannot tell me one single thing I can do to help the situation. I literally begged her to tell me what I can do. There is nothing. Besides, I'm so utterly riddled with testosterone and my head is racing with so many sexual thoughts that I can barely even care less any more about her deep psychological or emotional needs. Man, I can barely think straight I am that horny. I'm done trying to figure her "needs" out, and she can't be bothered to explain them. My needs are simple: I want to have sex. End of. Her needs, Christ alone knows.

*Get in shape* - yes, yes, I like this idea. I am going to return to the gym and get myself healthier. It will either make me more attractive to her (I doubt it), but more importantly will help me cope with the stress of a sexless marriage.

*How long? *For those who asked, I've been married a couple of years. The sex stopped as soon as she became pregnant and it never returned.

Anyway, thanks everyone. I think what I can take from this thread, most positively, is that I need to spend a little time focussing on myself; not in a selfish way, but trying to divert my attention toward my non-sexual needs, such as music, movies, games, fitness and social activity. I need to see more of my friends. In this marriage right now I feel locked in. Trapped. Isolated. LONELY. And yes, it is all because of the lack of sex. As one poster said correctly, if only I could have some sex, the world would be OK. But sex is not happening. So for now, I need to do whatever I can to crush the feelings of frustration and loneliness, albeit through distracting myself. If that fails, I'll at least be stronger and more able to cope if separation does finally come.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

What you have to do is get her to admit that marriages are supposed to be sexual, get her to admit that you are the "normal" one, and ask her what she is going to do to get herself on track. She has to be aware of the consequences of her lack of participation in the marriage.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Hicks said:


> What you have to do is get her to admit that marriages are supposed to be sexual, get her to admit that you are the "normal" one, and ask her what she is going to do to get herself on track. She has to be aware of the consequences of her lack of participation in the marriage.


What will this achieve? Based on what the OP says, she couldn't care less whether she's normal, abnormal or off the scale.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

So...no divorce, no talking, no anything?

lol Then why post about it?

Work on yourself, yes. But your marriage is still in trouble.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

mousecat said:


> Anyway, thanks everyone. I think what I can take from this thread, most positively, is that I need to spend a little time focussing on myself; not in a selfish way, but trying to divert my attention toward my non-sexual needs, such as music, movies, games, fitness and social activity. I need to see more of my friends. In this marriage right now I feel locked in. Trapped. Isolated. LONELY. And yes, it is all because of the lack of sex. As one poster said correctly, if only I could have some sex, the world would be OK. But sex is not happening. So for now, I need to do whatever I can to crush the feelings of frustration and loneliness, albeit through distracting myself. If that fails, I'll at least be stronger and more able to cope if separation does finally come.


My two cents - you need to turn the thermostat way down. Be selfish and look after your self, because she is plainly not interested in the job. Do stuff with your kid, and do not feel compelled to include her. Look out for youself and your interests. Exercise is a must, as it will help the stress. Avoid showing your emotions - I suspect it is a turnoff for her.

I would also sit her down and ask her where she see this marriage going? Keep it open ended and let her talk. If she accuses you of complaining about sex, say no, you want to know where she sees your marriage heading in general. Note to her the imbalance of effort that you see and ask her what should be done. If she answers as she has done in the past, inform her that you will be leveling the field. Also let her know that if your marriage continues as it is, you don't see it surviving another three years (or what ever number works for you). Don't justify your feelings, just make sure that you inform her. Then stop doing the things to meet her needs and start looking after you.

_Edit _- You don't need to divorce her tomorrow, but you do need to get yourself to a place where you are ready to divorce her.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

mousecat said:


> Wow, I did not expect so many replies, so quickly. Here is a brief response to the excellent points raised:
> 
> This morning she said "You seem sad, what's wrong?". I answered flatly, "I have not had sex in 19 months. That's why I am sad." A huge argument followed and I ended up sobbing in my car for 10 minutes before driving to work.
> 
> .


So, take us through this argument, blow by blow. Did she throw up "you're pressuring me" line again?

BTW, is she on any medications? Anti-depressants? 

Have you gone through the medical route yet? (i.e. It's not normal to go 19 months without sex. It would be helpful to determine that she has a clean bill of health, hormone-wise.)

If it's been this way since the baby, a couple of explanations are possible. First, could be the hormones. Second, it could be that she now see's herself as a "mother" and not a "wife." The third, which would be bad, is that she got what she wants with new baby and is not inclined to "put out" anymore. If she sees that phase of her life as "over," she needs to tell you now so that you can make decisions.

In general, you possibly can try to be more empathetic, but your empathy has to be matched by her acknowledging the issue and actively searching for its root cause.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

mousecat said:


> This morning she said "You seem sad, what's wrong?". I answered flatly, "I have not had sex in 19 months. That's why I am sad." * A huge argument followed and I ended up sobbing in my car for 10 minutes before driving to work.*


First of all, let me say that you are well within the bounds of propriety to expect sex - your kid is (almost) a year old and it's well past time for her to have adjusted to the demands of motherhood. Plus, you can bet that if another kid was the goal she would saddle up real quick (don't get her pregnant again).

Now, your reaction noted above is an absolute, epic fail.

You started off good by telling her up front what the problem was. But letting her argue about how appropriate your needs are makes you look weak. You know what you need and what her responsibility is; act like it.

Next time it comes up, your position should be something like the following. Of course, you have to use some discretion in how you get these sentiments across to your wife.

"You are avoiding your responsibility to me sexually. You now have me and our child to care for - that's just the way it is. Your failure to even admit this, much less be part of a solution, means you are my adversary and have failed as my wife.

The lack of sex alone causes issues. Your willingness to exist like this (and your apparant disregard for me and this marriage) greatly disappoints me. Clearly, seeing your failure bothers you, but pretending all is well is not an acceptable solution for me.

Part of being an adult is accepting the consequences of your actions. You have willingly refused me. My deep disappointment is the natural result of this and will be there whether I choose to express it or not.

Seeing me and being reminded of your failure is your part in this, unless you change your behavior. You cannot force me to stay quiet. You can choose to fix this issue or simply not be around. I will not exist like this indefinitely as this is not a healthy environment for me or our child; if you choose to not change I will seek to minimize your involvement in both our lives."


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Also let her know that if your marriage continues as it is, you don't see it surviving another three years (or what ever number works for you).


I agree with letting the OP know exactly where he stands, but with a caveat. He should NOT tell her simply that "I don't see this marriage lasting past XYZ date without change on your part". The danger is she sees this not as "wow, he's serious, I need to fix myself" but as "wow, he's not going to take this forever so I need to get what I can now".

As someone who was overly trusting and got burned I would suggest the following:

Make one last attempt at getting some professional counseling. If that fails, then he needs to get separate bank accounts, change where his check goes, get rid of her access to credit cards in his name, split up any liquid assets as much as possible. He may even want to get a legal separation order.

The point is to show that he means business. If she's choosing to set herself apart from him they might as well go all the way. She can choose to reintegrate him into her life, or she can decide that she likes being on her own better. She should not have the option of living on her terms while he gets the sh!t end of the stick.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

DTO said:


> Strongly disagree.
> 
> People don't forget what is needed from / for each gender to feel good about the relationship. What does happen far more frequently is that one partner decides that mutual (equal) effort is not the way forward. In essence, he or she decides that "I do not like her or him enough to give as much as I get".
> 
> ...


By this post, you lend credence to what i posted. 

Women are to blame when sex stops. By my reckoning, marital sex is a mutually satisfying exchange between lovers. That is distinct from sex between too people who want orgasms with no emotions investment. Some women think that the change in their husbands behavior after the wedding is because he no longer loves her. They may view sex as an emotionless act that meets their husbands needs but is not an expression of love. 

Many men may feel loved and emotionally fulfilled when they have sex with a willing partner but many women need more than sex to have similar feelings. Those are the facts. If you have a problem with that then I think your feelings are not supported by reality. 

I had a dramatically positive change in my relationship with my husband when I leaned that my husband views sex very differently than myself. I cannot say I fully understand but I fully accept him as he is. In return, he has made pains to understand me. He admits that he has difficultly getting it but he accepts me. We give each other what is needed based on our distinct feelings. 

I don't need to understand so much as accept that his feelings are as valid as mine are. I love him and I want him to be happy and to know that I love him in the way he needs to feel it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi mousecat ~

Based upon your other thread that you started last month about your wife and marriage, has your wife always been such a "negative nelly", or is this something that has started since having the baby? If it's something that's started since the baby, she could be overwhelmed and depressed, or overwhelmingly depressed, or depressingly overwhelmed. 

You also sound quite disconsolate, and I am sorry you are going through this.

But, all in all, at the end of the day, the person that you can work on and improve is yourself. I agree that you should start investing some time in yourself, and start investing it in your little baby too. Who knows? Maybe if 'mama' has some down time and starts to see you off and about and having some fun on your own and with your child she will begin to see the light.

Do you two ever get out and do things together? Go out on a Saturday date night? Ever do anything spur of the moment? Sometimes when a woman becomes a 'mom' it almost feels like a part of you dies. You have this great responsibility and it can feel like a heavy weight indeed. Sometimes we need to be reminded that we can be light and carefree and we can have fun again.

Best wishes.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

DTO that admonishing speech may not work. You sound like a father scolding a wayward child. Most women don't see themselves in that light. Any woman with one once of self esteem may say something to the effect of "when you are ready to talk about our relationship like my partner please let's talk. Please no threats or demands or you must expect that I will table the discussion. i am willing to listen to your feelings about all aspects of our relationship. I would appreciate the same from you". 

You advocate speech- making about your expectations and needs on the basis that there is no way that anything else may have lead to this problem. that seem to be all about how much sex you expect and what you will do if you don't get it. On principal alone, a wife would not likely fall all over her scolding husband with affection kisses and wild hungry sex. I would feel repulsed by the utter disrespect for me as an adult and partner.

Moreover, how can you expect to shift into loving sex after such a speech? If a woman is not attracted to her man sexually before this talk he'll be lucky if she wants to stay in the same room afterwards. 

However if it works please let us know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TallJeff (Nov 1, 2011)

Since you're a newlywed and didn't mention kids, I assume you have no kids?

I agree with getting on with your life. Find some things to do in the evenings (assuming you both work day jobs).

Play some rec sports, take some classes, get out, do something. Let her know that you have better things to do than sit at home and be miserable with her.

This will achieve two goals: (a) you'll be a happier person. (b) it might make her realize that you have options.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I've read quite a bit of what you posted, and in general I respect it. But on this one I think you've pretty much missed the boat on what I'm trying to say.

I concede that lots of people are essentially good-natured and sacrifice much for their partners , because that is how decent people behave. You are fortunate that your husband did and you both are better for it. But I think your positive experience with your husband prevents you from acknowledging that some people (men and women) simply do not come from this place of good will. You fall into a "no, people simply do not act like that" mentality which leads you to conclude that I'm full of crap.

Specifically:



Catherine602 said:


> Women are to blame when sex stops. By my reckoning, marital sex is a mutually satisfying exchange between lovers. That is distinct from sex between too people who want orgasms with no emotions investment. Some women think that the change in their husbands behavior after the wedding is because he no longer loves her. *This is a faulty assumption - not every husband who is having sexual issues has changed after the wedding. In fact, I would argue that such men are in the minority. *
> 
> Many men may feel loved and emotionally fulfilled when they have sex with a willing partner but many women need more than sex to have similar feelings. Those are the facts. *Completely agree. My point is that many women look at sex as power; "I'll have sex with him because he treats me well" is displaced by "I'll have sex with him when I get that new furniture / house I want / etc." and "I'll promise sex because I really want to provide" becomes "I'll promise sex because a quality guy will not marry if he knows I'm not attracted to him."
> 
> ...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

DTO - I don't think you are full of crap. You are right, I am almost childish in my belief that there are few really bad people. It has gotten me into to trouble on more than one occasion. 

There are some men and women who would not agree that fire is hot even if you lit them up but most of us are not so obtuse. 

Sometimes we are ignorant. I was. From my side - I did not feel that he stopped caring and loving me because he did not participate enough with childcare and chores etc. 

From his side - he lost his wife and lover when we had kids. I lavished my attention on my kids and much less attention on him. 

He felt left out, unloved, and deeply hurt and he withdrew when I needed him the most. Who is at fault? 

Who cares, the question is how do we get out of this. Our path happened to start with me - I asked my husband if he felt that I had abandoned him. 

That opened the floodgates and he poured out his heart like he never had before and has not done again so far. 

Thats why I think that one should not assume that women are deliberately insensitive. Most women have no idea how a man in love views sex with the person he loves. 

How do you communicate that? Some women will change on their own once they realize their notions were wrong, if the relationship is not too far gone. 

Their husbands don't need to do anything because the relationship is still good. There are several woman who post who made this transition. 

Some will change with knowledge and help from a good MC and changes in the husband. 

Some will never change but I think there are few in this category.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> DTO that admonishing speech may not work. You sound like a father scolding a wayward child. Most women don't see themselves in that light. Any woman with one once of self esteem may say something to the effect of "when you are ready to talk about our relationship like my partner please let's talk. Please no threats or demands or you must expect that I will table the discussion. i am willing to listen to your feelings about all aspects of our relationship. I would appreciate the same from you".
> 
> You advocate speech-making about your expectations and needs on the basis that there is no way that anything else may have lead to this problem. that seem to be all about how much sex you expect and what you will do if you don't get it. On principal alone, a wife would not likely fall all over her scolding husband with affection kisses and wild hungry sex. I would feel repulsed by the utter disrespect for me as an adult and partner.
> 
> ...


Just to be clear, I was not advocating Mousecat making some big speech, and I was clear on this. What I said is that he needs to make his position clear in an appropriate manner; she can either value his effort equal to her own or not. The focus should be on improving himself.

There are two problems here. The first is the lack of sex and that has any number of causes. The second is she refuses to address a long-term issue and, worse, refuses to even allow him to express his feelings. Her POV is that he will go without sex and he'd better shut up about it. As was said earlier, she does not care about his feelings - this is not "partner" behavior either and is unjustified. If she catches some crap for this, so be it.

That being said, Mousecat IMO does not have a sex issue per se. He has a respect issue that manifests itself as sexual refusal. His wife simply does not care about his needs enough to incorporate them into her life under any circumstances. His goal thus should not be to get laid (which won't happen until she sees him as equally deserving). It should be to not allow himself to be ignored. 

There is a bad dynamic: wife does not want sex and does not want to be reminded of her shortcomings. Mousecat complains; this angers her so her solution is to browbeat him into silence (the reason the argument ensues). Mousecat needs to break this dynamic and get his w to see his needs as valid; right now he is seen as too spineless to stand up for himself.

To answer the last question - I did have this same basic problem (the details were somewhat different). My ex made it clear that I was a necessary evil; she could not live a nice life without my contribution and that was all I good for. Consistent with my advice to the OP, my goal was not sex but to work on myself and break the dynamic.

At this rock bottom point I had three options:

1) Demand respect and be taken seriously.
2) Simply walk away and leave her hanging.
3) Do nothing and continue to be ignored (the worst option).

She was clear that I considered the sex life unacceptable. What changed is that I stopped chasing her / validating her behavior. Weekdays off that would have been for chores and errands became father-daughter time. I started catching the ball game after work with the guys once in a while.

Now I still did more than 50% and never just shut her out - but I was simply less available. That reduced availability led to an unmistakable drop in my ex's quality of life. She knew that things had changed. And, yes, once she had to acknowledge that I did a great deal for the family (because of what was not done when I pulled back) the sexual refusal (15 months ended). So, yeah, I would say that my strategy was extremely effective in shaking up the dynamic. 

Now, we are getting divorced and the little bit of sex only was for a short while before it tapered off and stopped for good. But, she actually took ownership of this; her words were that she has hangups but getting herself healthy would be a long hard road and she was unwilling to make the effort. More importantly, I gave our marriage a fighting chance. If I had done nothing she would have continued to see me as worthless and nothing would have changed.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Some will never change but I think there are few in this category.


Agree with most of your post, but not with this. There are many people who will never change. I have simply known too many of them personally (and heard about them on sites like TAB and others) to believe otherwise.

Now I will acknowledge that there are many reasons why a woman would be intractably stubborn regarding sex and some of those reasons (like having parents who said "sex is bad") are sad. But, at the end of the day, if she is not willing to be open-minded and teachable there is nothing the man can do except bring the wife to a decision point - her ideals or her marriage.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> What will this achieve? Based on what the OP says, she couldn't care less whether she's normal, abnormal or off the scale.


Rather than just "divorce her", what it will achieve is to lead her through a process where she herself decides what she wants in life. It will lead her to choose divorce or becoming sexual.

It's very easy for a woman to say "your pressuring me". But it's quite another for her to say that she does not think marriages should be sexual relatiotionships.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

mousecat said:


> Anyway, thanks everyone. I think what I can take from this thread, most positively, is that I need to spend a little time focussing on myself; not in a selfish way, but trying to divert my attention toward my non-sexual needs, such as music, movies, games, fitness and social activity. I need to see more of my friends. In this marriage right now I feel locked in. Trapped. Isolated. LONELY. And yes, it is all because of the lack of sex. As one poster said correctly, if only I could have some sex, the world would be OK. But sex is not happening. So for now, I need to do whatever I can to crush the feelings of frustration and loneliness, albeit through distracting myself. If that fails, I'll at least be stronger and more able to cope if separation does finally come.


I think there is really hope for your situation. You're young and you haven't been married long. There are posters on this board who are decades in to sexless marriages. However, you seem to have fallen into the trap of seeing your wife as being at fault in this and that your only option is to sit around and wait for her to change. And that's like waiting for Godot.

So, if you want things to change, you have to be the catalyst. I think the best strategy is to follow Athol Kay's MAP. That is a long-term, self-improvement strategy to either pull your wife's attraction, or better position yourself in the post-divorce sexual marketplace. If you want a quicker fix, you could try lowering the thermostat. That basically means that, since your wife has stopped attending to your needs, you should stop attending to hers. Your level of effort in your marriage should match your wife's. You should couple this with the Marriage Busters 180 list so that you stop appearing needy to her. The advantage here is that it will quickly get her attention. The disadvantage is that it may reinforce her idea that you're not doing your part, and reinforce her decision to deny you sex. Lastly, you could just divorce sooner rather than later. But you seem to have discounted divorce until you've exhausted all other strategies for improvement.

Don't give up. If your wife refuses to tell you her needs, then work around it. Read relationship blogs and apply what you learn. I would be very surprised if your wife is completely different from all the other women on the planet. So listen to the women who are willing to share and assume your wife is similar to them. Read a guy like Athol Kay and assume that the strategies that are successful in his marriage can be successful in yours. Or, you could just try things. Do something different. If your wife hates it, stop doing that. If she likes it, keep it up. Experiment. What have you got to lose?

Good luck.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

DTO said:


> Just to be clear, I was not advocating Mousecat making some big speech, and I was clear on this. What I said is that he needs to make his position clear in an appropriate manner; she can either value his effort equal to her own or not. The focus should be on improving himself.
> 
> There are two problems here. The first is the lack of sex and that has any number of causes. The second is she refuses to address a long-term issue and, worse, refuses to even allow him to express his feelings. Her POV is that he will go without sex and he'd better shut up about it. As was said earlier, she does not care about his feelings - this is not "partner" behavior either and is unjustified. If she catches some crap for this, so be it.
> 
> ...


I think this is a great post, and similar to the approach I was trying to advocate (though done very poorly). 

The talk is an opportunity to make your feelings and needs clear to your spouse, as well as listen to try and understand the feelings and needs of your spouse. I agree about it not being a speech. Rather, it needs to be a heartfelt statement of your position. You don't want to surprise your spouse - rather, you want to try and communicate what you are feeling and what you expect.

It also needs to be followed up with action - action to change your behaviors based on what you want, and based on the statements of your spouse. If, after you start making changes, you still no change or effort by your spouse, you need to think seriously about whether it is a relationship that can be saved.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think this is a great post, and similar to the approach I was trying to advocate (though done very poorly).
> 
> The talk is an opportunity to make your feelings and needs clear to your spouse, as well as listen to try and understand the feelings and needs of your spouse. I agree about it not being a speech. Rather, it needs to be a heartfelt statement of your position. You don't want to surprise your spouse - rather, you want to try and communicate what you are feeling and what you expect.
> 
> It also needs to be followed up with action - action to change your behaviors based on what you want, and based on the statements of your spouse. If, after you start making changes, you still no change or effort by your spouse, you need to think seriously about whether it is a relationship that can be saved.


Hi Tall Guy,

I'm glad that someone here gets my intent about changing myself and the terms of interaction with my spouse before all else. Most of the other responses to this seem to be "if you think she's going to fall on your d!ck after that you're crazy".

You bring up a good point that I should have stated more clearly. My goal was to show that I had not abandoned her (and, relatedly, not give her an opportunity to blame me for her inaction). When I said that I did not cut her out of my life, I meant three things:

1) I still made keeping up our home a priority.
2) I was always polite and ready to interact if she chose to.
2) I did not cheat nor threaten to cheat.

I'm curious: when you mentioned "poorly executed" did you mean that you feel I did a poor job of dealing with this with my ex? If so, how? I am always looking to learn and await your comments.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

DTO said:


> Hi Tall Guy,
> 
> I'm glad that someone here gets my intent about changing myself and the terms of interaction with my spouse before all else. Most of the other responses to this seem to be "if you think she's going to fall on your d!ck after that you're crazy".
> 
> ...


Assuming you are referring to my paranthetical that says "done very poorly", I was referring to my previous post, which did not adequately convey the message I intended, while your post did.

I would ask whether during your conversation with your ex did she ever explain or discuss the issues she was having with you? My feelings on the OP providing his needs/expectaions (appropriately worded with a proper tone) are that he also needs to listen to understand his wife's issues with him, and where reasonable, address his own behavior appropriately (for example if after honest reflection he is not doing his share of the chores, he needs to step up). Did that occur with you, and if so, what good or bad takeaways do you have from it.

_Edit _- I will also note that I have run into objections to men stating their needs in prior threads. Some women complain that men don't listen to when they explain their needs (and I am sure many have good reason for that complaint). But when, during the course of a discussion, a man is advised to make his needs in the marriage clear, the reaction is often that he is scolding her and treating her like a child. I have yet to see an explanation about how a man is to suppose to give a woman the information about what he needs so that she can then chose whether to meet those needs. I am not trying to be snarky, but am genuinely interested in understanding this.


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## Zzyzx (Aug 24, 2011)

Mutual respect between spouses is absolutely critical to the proper functioning of a marriage. Such mutual respect is often killed by spouses who place ego before commitment. Multiple examples abound throughout TAM. Mousecat's wife has clearly lost her respect for him on top of whatever physical issues she may have gone through while pregnant. If mousecat can figure out through whatever resources he finds in this thread or elsewhere how to get that respect back from her, the sex life may take care of itself. And if it doesn't, well he will have done the work to make himself attractive post-marriage. Good luck.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I would ask whether during your conversation with your ex did she ever explain or discuss the issues she was having with you? My feelings on the OP providing his needs/expectaions (appropriately worded with a proper tone) are that he also needs to listen to understand his wife's issues with him, and where reasonable, address his own behavior appropriately (for example if after honest reflection he is not doing his share of the chores, he needs to step up). Did that occur with you, and if so, what good or bad takeaways do you have from it.


Good question, and I'm happy to share.

*Relevant background (warning - LONG):*

We dated mostly on, some off over most of two years before we became intimate. We were intimate for almost a year before _she proposed marriage _and I accepted.

That year of intimacy was nothing great. But, we weren't married and she said there were certain activities she was not comfortable with. I respected that; my thinking is a boyfriend / girlfriend does not have the same rights as a husband / wife to request accomodation or change.

When she proposed, I told her I did love her but our sex life was not adequate. I needed more frequency and variety from my marriage; I would be expected to provide more in marriage and I needed more from it. She readily agreed, saying she would have no trouble meeting the needs of her husband.

My ex never - not once - fulfilled her commitment for better sex. Sex, as bland as it was, peaked before marriage and she steadilyy decreased her frequency and effort while becoming increasingly demanding in non-sexual areas. Her excuses were a blame-shift odyssey. I was very naive and thought my wife was making genuine (if odd) expressions of need:

* We did not have our own place (we were renting from her folks to save money and help her folks financially).
* I was gone too much (I was a full time college student with a part-time job during our entire dating history).
* It did not feel like a real marriage to her without a child.
* We did not own a spacious home (she made it clear that a smaller home would not meet her standards)
* We struggled too much financially for her to feel sexual. She insisted on a spacious fixer home that taxed our finances yet expected it to be up to her standards within a short time. Her attitude was "you're a college grad - it's time to step up and start taking care of me".

It took a while to figure out something was seriously off, and longer to muster the courage to act. On our ninth anniversary (shortly after our second child) things came to a head. I had found a sitter for our kids and taken her out for some "us" time. She had me take her shopping, got what she wanted, then declared our outing over and had me drive us home. When we got home the kids were asleep and I suggested some intimacy might be nice especially since she had ignored me during her pregnancy; she responded that she was still under doctor's orders to not have intercourse. I suggested there were other ways to be sexual and she said _"that will never happen"_.

Thereafter, we (over a long period of time) engaged in a series of discussions involving both our particular issues and the larger issue of gender roles in marriage.

* She does not view marriage as a partnership of equals. The man is to provide for the family (financially and domestically). Sex or other service was a gift to be doled out when the woman feels like it, not something earned or deserved.
* It is the husband's job to please the wife. A good husband will place his wife's immediate comfort and happiness above all else. This priority should trump the husbands sexual drive and his expectation that his wife contribute equally to the home.
* The man is leader of the home in terms of being responsible for meeting everyone's ongoing needs. But the woman is the "Chairman of the Board" that ultimately sets the tone (value system in play, how the kids are raised, what resources the family requires and how they are spent). The man is the "CEO" who is judged according to how well he makes this happen.
* She never was in a frame of mind where she was willing to provide the promised sex life. She felt that because we had sex I owed her a life. She knew that if she was honest about her sexual views I would refuse to marry her so she lied and would deal with the sexual issue as it came up.
* As low as she set the general bar for wifely performance in marriage, she argues that because she had a rough childhood she should get a free pass. If she was fondled as a child it's okay to ignore my sexual happiness. If she was poor and spends lots of money to compensate I should accomodate. She is insulted by suggestions she should not make me pay a price for what someone else did before we met and should work to become an emotionally healthy adult.
* She says that my driving change is abuse. My complaints disrupt her self-concept as a success story (survivor and loving and attentive wife and mother); this disruption creates doubt and anxiety (a psychological truth); she should not have to feel bad or anxious so my triggering those feelings makes me abusive (she actually said that I am just as bad as the people who abused her in her childhood).
* The purpose of sex is either to maintain the wife's emotional needs or to procreate. Sex for pleasure is inherently objectifying to women and is thus inappropriate. Essentially, having sex because she wants the boost from being wanted and able to say "well, I have not cut him off completely" is fine. My wanting to have just a good ol' roll in the hay is depraved.

And there you have it. Sex was never good and she never fulfilled her promises. She would readily agree that I was a good provider, good father, and made her life easy at home. But, since a good husband provides selflessly but never asks or takes - instead receiving gratefully whatever may be offered to him - I was a failure.

She also refused counseling, cut people off whom she could not manipulate into supporting her, cut off people who openly espoused liking sex, and tried to interrupt my relationships as well. It's disappointing but not surprising.

A particular low point was when she berated me and threatened divorce for seeking the counsel of our head pastor. My ex fancied herself a strong evangelical (meaning that one believes the Bible alone has the principles for living one's life) Christian so I thought his input would be helpful. He heard me out, called my wife and heard her out, reminded her that _satisfying_ sex was her responsibility to me and adventurous sex (BJ, games, positions) was not unbiblical.

Well, as I said she went friggin ballistic: yelling, tantrum, crying, assertions that I humiliated her and sacrificed the privacy of our marriage. Our pastor and I had a follow-up discussion and I told him this. It turns out that for all her histrionics, she had gone to the head pastor's wife (herself a pastor of the church), several months before I sought help, to complain about _my_ behavior. My ex said her piece, was that I'm a good husband and she needs to fulfill her responsibilities as my wife. They also held her accountable for her actions as per Matthew 18 (for those of you familiar with it).

I only found about this several months later when the pastor's wife found out my ex had laid into me for getting my own advice and felt that I needed to know the whole story. When I confronted my wife about it she said something lame like "yeah, but they are my friends and not yours". Essentially it was just her trying to keep me in the dark.

*Thoughts and implications:*

* We as adults are responsible for ourselves. We need to be capable of fulfilling our obligations or simply not make those obligations rather than coming short on other people.

*It is never okay to manipulate someone in the manner described above for personal gain. I get that the prospect of going through life single (not able to have a constant companion, share bills with someone, not having kids or raising them alone) is daunting, particularly if (like my ex) one does not have much book aptitude (for college) or trade-skills aptitude. But you have the choice to either get healthy, find someone willing to tolerate your conditions (if that person is someone you can even be attracted to), or stay single and poor.

* People who will lie about their sexuality to lure you will continue to lie about it after you've committed to them, and will lie to you about other things as well (the root issue is not sex per se but rather that person's willingness to manipulate others to get their needs met). They likely will not ever fix themselves, so anyone finding themselves in my situation needs to simply their partner/spouse loose and move on.

* One outcome from this situation is that I'm much stronger for having gone through it. I've sensed there's nothing wrong with wanting much sex, wanting a BJ, or wanting to have sex in the back seat of my car (in the garage of course). I will never let anyone make me feel bad for my sexual appetite.

* I'll be able to spot issues brewing much earlier in the process and not be manipulated in that manner again.

* I don't see that "it's not you - I would not do that with anyone" excuse as valid. My ex told me just this; my response was "you committed to something with me and whom you would or would not do it with is irrelevant". I've heard of therapists saying "if the lack of sex is not about you specifically then you should cut her slack in this area", but I disagree - at least in a situation where manipulation was a central theme.

I know that's long, and I've worked to make sure it was thorough and succinct. If you have any more follow up questions, please fire away!


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

DTO said:


> I suggested there were other ways to be sexual and she said *"that will never happen"*.


This seems to be a common thread - plenty of people, men and women, come on here and say how their partner defines the only acceptable form of sexual interaction as intercourse, and that if they cannot have intercourse, that these partners (male and female) are totally unwilling to make any sort of effort to give their partner sexual satisfaction.

Mrs SB and I have always enjoyed a sufficiently broad definition of "how to be sexual" that the problem hasn't ever arisen, and I suspect both of us would have run screaming from anyone we thought might be like that.

I wonder how anyone deals with someone who's reply to "There are other things you could do for me" is "Not by me there aren't".


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## Noel1987 (Jan 2, 2012)

Give her a monsterious blows with a hard core in the bed then kick her ass off


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

DTO - Thank you for sharing that. I imagine that must have been a very difficult process for you to go through to get where you are. A couple of areas where I already was in agreement, but are strengthen after reading this are being responsible for ourselves and not feeling bad for wanting sex with our spouse. Both require a tiny pit of selfishness that for too many is uncomfortable to acknolwedge, but is vital to maintaining some sense of self.


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## Early Grayce (Jan 19, 2012)

I found alot of good information in this discussion, stuff I can use. My wife and I have sex about once every three or four month's, I don't mark my calender so that is a estimate. The only thing I can add to the discussion is that a lack of intimate relations can absolutely destroy self esteem and self confidence. Then it becomes a vicious cycle.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

DTO,
This is a brilliant post. Insightful, concise and honest. 

There was a lot of non verbal "signalling" going on. The key branchpoint in your story was not getting married. It was haivng your first child despite your W clearly having already breached her promise to you. That event confirmed her "hypothesis" which was always unspoken but was the foundation for all her behavior. And that hypothesis was that she was way more important than you were. And by definition her needs/wants were important and yours weren't. 

My belief: If you could go back in time - and calmly - firmly - refuse to have a child until you and she are at at parrity - and have stayed there for at least a year - the whole story changes. 




DTO said:


> Good question, and I'm happy to share.
> 
> *Relevant background (warning - LONG):*
> 
> ...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> DTO,
> This is a brilliant post. Insightful, concise and honest.
> 
> There was a lot of non verbal "signalling" going on. The key branchpoint in your story was not getting married. It was haivng your first child despite your W clearly having already breached her promise to you. That event confirmed her "hypothesis" which was always unspoken but was the foundation for all her behavior. And that hypothesis was that she was way more important than you were. And by definition her needs/wants were important and yours weren't.
> ...


I totally agree. As I indicated, I was naive and did not get that I was being played for a very long time. If I had stood firm and insisted on her meeting her commitment to good sex we would have lasted less than three years, as it was clear that she never intended to give a BJ, role play, etc.

I guess the easiest way to put it is that I was in disbelief. You know the way so many TAM members refuse to believe that people don't just refuse sex and will always be hot in bed if they are treated well in marriage? I was stuck in that same mindset.


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## nicky1 (Jan 20, 2012)

mate... time to find another wife it is that simple


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

DTO's thread is very important.
It's not about sex it's about the concept of marriage. If your wife doesn't get the concept of marriage, then you should not stay with her. If she comes to understand the concept of marriage, she will become sexual with you.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Hicks said:


> DTO's thread is very important.
> It's not about sex it's about the concept of marriage. If your wife doesn't get the concept of marriage, then you should not stay with her. If she comes to understand the concept of marriage, she will become sexual with you.


This is an excellent point! Even though I omitted it above, I have long realized that my ex really wanted a substitute parent.

When you think about it, a large part of being a parent to older teens or college-age young adults is about continuing the financial support, being the backstop when help is needed, yet at the same time scaling back the emotional connection and letting them do their own thing.

Of course, where this dynamic fails is that (1) spouses have accepted responsibilities that are incompatible with the freedom of the college age set and (2) young adulthood is a transitional period to independence and self-sufficiency whereas married people do not want to give up that support from their spouses.

This failure to understand the nature of marriage probably explains why some spouses are jealous of the attention lavished on their actual children (I read this somewhere on TAM and my ex did this as well), but that's a different topic.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> DTO,
> This is a brilliant post. Insightful, concise and honest.
> 
> There was a lot of non verbal "signalling" going on. The key branchpoint in your story was not getting married. It was haivng your first child despite your W clearly having already breached her promise to you. That event confirmed her "hypothesis" which was always unspoken but was the foundation for all her behavior. And that hypothesis was that she was way more important than you were. And by definition her needs/wants were important and yours weren't.
> ...


MEM, one of the most irritating sort of people is the bloke who stands there and says after you've ballsed something up totally says: "Now I think I can see where you went wrong...":rofl: You can't get back to head it off, can you?

You're absolutely right, of course, but absent a time machine, it isn't necessarily _useful_.

Given that he has had the children, how does he unf*ck the situation? Solutions involving time travel, wormholes or parallel universes are exempt


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> MEM, one of the most irritating sort of people is the bloke who stands there and says after you've ballsed something up totally says: "Now I think I can see where you went wrong...":rofl: You can't get back to head it off, can you?
> 
> You're absolutely right, of course, but absent a time machine, it isn't necessarily _useful_.
> 
> Given that he has had the children, how does he unf*ck the situation? Solutions involving time travel, wormholes or parallel universes are exempt


Just because you don't have the flux capacitor up and working does not mean identifying these types of problems is not useful, even to the original poster. Seeing these issues can help us identify them in the future (even when in a different disguies) for that relationship or the next relationship, as well as for those reading these posts. 

I read here in part to figure out where I went wrong so I can try not to in the future. I also read here to avoid going wrong in the next situation.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> MEM, one of the most irritating sort of people is the bloke who stands there and says after you've ballsed something up totally says: "Now I think I can see where you went wrong...":rofl: You can't get back to head it off, can you?
> 
> You're absolutely right, of course, but absent a time machine, it isn't necessarily _useful_.
> 
> Given that he has had the children, how does he unf*ck the situation? Solutions involving time travel, wormholes or parallel universes are exempt


Hey Sawney, thanks for the backup -seriously - but I have a thick skin.

In all seriousness, a big part of why I post is so that others may learn from my mistakes. I can sit here and whine "I wish I had known better" or I can be the person who says "wow, many of these situations are eerily similar to mine so I'm going to throw in my $0.02 and see if I cannot help someone to avoid or improve a bad situation".

In many if not most cases you really cannot undo the situation but just learn for the future.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Just because you don't have the flux capacitor up and working does not mean identifying these types of problems is not useful, even to the original poster. Seeing these issues can help us identify them in the future (even when in a different disguies) for that relationship or the next relationship, as well as for those reading these posts.
> 
> I read here in part to figure out where I went wrong so I can try not to in the future. I also read here to avoid going wrong in the next situation.


Agree.

Until people understand how these situations develop, they cannot avoid or improve them. I am well into the divorce process - it should be completed in the next few months and I'm eagerly anticipating moving on with my life. I am not here to whine, vent, rant, or seek advice; I know with clarity where I failed (although I welcome input in case there is something I can learn, and no one ever knows it all) and am at peace.

But, mine (IMO) was not some run of the mill marriage issue that got out of hand and now here I am getting divorced. I had a troubled marriage to an extremely dysfunctional woman who refused to seek professional counseling, rejected good advice when she did get it, and insisted on remaining a victim. She wanted everyone to accomodate her and had no interest in improving herself.

I feel that people with this mentality are relationship poison and should be given a WIIIIIIIDE berth (channeling Ernie McCracken here); they don't deserve to be married or have kids. I'm not saying this out of spite or insensitivity; I'm happy alone and can only imagine how painful going through abuse must be. But, having been abused does not make it okay to go and screw up someone else's life in an attempt to salvage your own; and, believe me, they do screw up other's lives.

But, people do find themselves in these types of relationships. Sometimes all that can be done is to help people see with clarity into what's going on in their relationships, help people see where the relationship is headed without a change of course, and help people make the hard choices to improve their lives.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> I wonder how anyone deals with someone who's reply to "There are other things you could do for me" is "Not by me there aren't".


I would deal with it by finding someone who would.
After the quickest possible divorce I could muster.

I have to be honest, I truly don`t understand how a spouse could ever allow their marriage to become sexless.

All the excuses the spouse who denies sex give are exactly that, excuses and lies.
The reason they won`t have sex their spouse comes down to one thing and one thing always (Barring medical issues)..

They have no desire for you.

That`s it, that`s the reason ALWAYS, EVERY TIME.

Considering that I cannot even fathom being in an intimate relationship with someone who has no desire for me I`m simply done.

The kids don`t matter, the house doesn`t matter, the money doesn`t matter.

I get one life and one life only, I simply refuse to throw it away living miserably with someone who doesn`t want me for anything more than a paycheck.
There is a plethora of women out there who do and would desire me.
I`m giving the best of that lot a shot at it.

Divorce would be nearly immediate.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DTO said:


> Hey Sawney, thanks for the backup -seriously - but I have a thick skin.
> 
> In all seriousness, a big part of why I post is so that others may learn from my mistakes. I can sit here and whine "I wish I had known better" or I can be the person who says "wow, many of these situations are eerily similar to mine so I'm going to throw in my $0.02 and see if I cannot help someone to avoid or improve a bad situation".
> 
> In many if not most cases you really cannot undo the situation but just learn for the future.


To be clear, I cannot undo any situation - only create a healthier dymanic by changing myself and inviting my partner to participate.

This requires strength to (1) know that I am equally deserving of having my wants and needs met, (2) be able to push through any resistance to change, and (3) realize that my partner my reject the new dynamic as too personally inconvenient, leave, and know that I will be okay (and not be paralyzed by fear).

One also needs insight into the root cause of a situation to be able to act productively. Through a combination of my naivete and my ex's avoidance / manipulation I was pounding my head against a wall for years trying to dig through the crap. It is this frustration that I seek to avoid for others by posting here.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

DTO said:


> To be clear, I cannot undo any situation - only create a healthier dymanic by changing myself and inviting my partner to participate.
> 
> This requires strength to (1) know that I am equally deserving of having my wants and needs met, (2) be able to push through any resistance to change, and (3) realize that my partner my reject the new dynamic as too personally inconvenient, leave, and know that I will be okay (and not be paralyzed by fear).
> 
> One also needs insight into the root cause of a situation to be able to act productively. Through a combination of my naivete and my ex's avoidance / manipulation I was pounding my head against a wall for years trying to dig through the crap. It is this frustration that I seek to avoid for others by posting here.


Which is extremely noble. I'm just sorry that that's why you're posting it. I wish that unf*cking it and getting the time back was an option for you.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Just because you don't have the flux capacitor up and working does not mean identifying these types of problems is not useful, even to the original poster. Seeing these issues can help us identify them in the future (even when in a different disguies) for that relationship or the next relationship, as well as for those reading these posts.
> 
> I read here in part to figure out where I went wrong so I can try not to in the future. I also read here to avoid going wrong in the next situation.


Like I said, I'm just sorry he can't get the time back


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> Which is extremely noble. I'm just sorry that that's why you're posting it. I wish that unf*cking it and getting the time back was an option for you.


Yup, but maybe if that happened I would not have a daughter who adores me, has my looks, and has my personality.

Did I mention she is a total daddy's girl?


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Take a look at this thread..
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...12-signs-youre-headed-divorce.html#post552309


I just read the list and yup my marriage is in big trouble, but i already knew that.


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## nicky1 (Jan 20, 2012)

well said tacoma, it is the obvious truth, new wife time for sure.


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