# Looking for some perspective



## Jackalope (Apr 3, 2013)

Hi. I've been lurking for some time and have found some really useful advice as well as some much needed validation. Thanks for that.

I'll try to make this short.

I'm not legally married but I've been in a monogamous relationship for 12 years. We have a 6 year old child. I'll just call her my wife from now on to simplify things.

Anyway, after our son was born there was a lot of stress on our relationship. We were young and isolated without any family or friend support. I sort of escaped into my work, thinking it was what I was supposed to do as the sole provider.

We eventually moved back to her hometown to be near her family. We bought some land from her stepfather and built a house. The situation turned out to be a lot different than what I was told before we moved and I was pretty pissed about it. A short time later, my wife's mom died. It was sudden and took a huge toll on her. I did my best to support her but I was a pretty weak husband at the time. I hadn't had much experience dealing with grief and I was still a workaholic.

Life went on for awhile getting steadily more miserable until she gave me the I-love-you-but-I'm-not-in-love-with-you talk. The thought of losing her was really painful and I woke up. I started spending more time with the family, taking care of the house, trying to enjoy spending time with her family and working on myself (exercise, etc.). I've made huge changes in the last year and she readily admits this.

After the talk, she started spending most of her time at a friend's house. She got a new job and some new friends. I felt like she had left me and I told her so. I had a strong suspicion she was having an affair or looking for one, but I had no proof. Part of what I was doing at this time was trying to let her be more independent since she said she was feeling smothered, basically. So I kept my mouth shut, let her have her space and focused on bettering myself.

We started counseling. I thought it was really helping. Things seemed to be getting better between us. We were able to have honest conversations without always ending in a shouting/crying fest. She started staying at home more and we went on a really great family vacation.

Then she told me she had had sex with someone else. 3 months earlier during our de facto separation. She had kept it from me all that time. It was an old high school crush she had run into at a bar. I won't go through all the things I felt since they've been covered so many times but I will say that the fact that she hid it from me for so long, I think damaged my trust in her more than anything else. It also made me question the "progress" we'd made in counseling.

This was almost a year ago. We continued counseling and I thought it was mostly behind us but now I am not so sure. I have a really hard time trusting her and sometimes I think about the cheating and it still makes me really angry. I keep this to myself and keep trying to let it go and remember that I am making a decision to make it work.

Ok, that was just the back story. Hopefully you are still with me. 

She has this friend. He's her best friend. They've been friends since high school. She has sworn to me that it's always been platonic and I believe her. However, this friend is a swinger and very vocal about it. He's also very demonstrative. He has, many times in the past, hugged her, kissed her and told her he loves her. He does this in front of me. 

We went to his wedding last year, a few months after I found out about the cheating. His fiance didn't want him sleeping in the same house because of tradition and he didn't plan ahead so he ended up sharing our hotel room. My wife stayed out late with him at his bachelor party and when they came back, she slept in bed with him instead of me and our son. I was pissed and confronted her. She told me she didn't want to wake us and that she thought it would be more comfortable for everyone. I couldn't argue with that but it felt wrong to me. However I couldn't even articulate to myself why it felt wrong. 

We just went on another trip to visit this friend and his wife. The trip was fine but on the last day before we left, she went out with him for a few hours. No problem there, even though it makes my insecure male antenna perk up. They come back a bit later than she said they would which annoyed me, and then we left. That night we had sex and immediately afterward she tells me that he offered to buy her an expensive vibrator. I didn't know what to say so I just ignored it went to sleep.

It can take me awhile to sort out what I'm feeling and to communicate it. One of the things I've been working on. One of the things she told me had to change and has.

The next day I mulled it over. I realized they had gone to the sex shop together. I let that one sink in. Then I realized she didn't tell me any of this when usually she tells me all about their conversations. That didn't sit right. And I couldn't think of any reason why she would think this specific bit of info would make good pillow talk.

I talked to her about it that evening. I told her that it bothered me. I told her that I knew my jealousy was my problem but I wasn't happy about her behavior nonetheless. She gave me the cold shoulder for the rest of the night.

Now I am really irked. I feel like she has no regard for me at all. I am perfectly willing to admit that my feelings may be irrational but I should be able to share them with her. She doesn't seem capable of stepping into my shoes for a second. I am still healing from the hurt her actions caused me and trying to learn to trust her again but it's really hard when she does things like this and then treats me like an ******* for having a reaction.

So my question is am I just being a jealous jerk? Should I just get over it or am I justified in feeling hurt and disrespected?

This turned out to be a pretty long post. Thank you for listening.


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## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

You let your wife (sort of) hang out with a swinger and go to his bachelor party? WTF. 

Your relationships needs boundaries desperately. Don't assume they are present unless they are explicitly stated. You are in an open relationship without your consent.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Jackalope said:


> She has this friend. He's her best friend. They've been friends since high school. She has sworn to me that it's always been platonic and I believe her.* However, this friend is a swinger and very vocal about it. He's also very demonstrative. He has, many times in the past, hugged her, kissed her and told her he loves her. He does this in front of me. *


Sorry for your distress and confusion, but you need to put your feet down or tell this woman to get out of your life.
She is disrespecting you,
He is disrespecting you
Together, they are both disrespecting you.

She cheated before and showed no remorse, because there weren't any consequences for her actions.

She is now cheating IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE and you are still not reigning her in.
Your inaction is enabling her actions.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

I do not think you are a jerk. I think she is a little too friendly with her male friend. If he was gay I might see you being ok with it but he's not. She seems to have no respect for you and probably wont ever until you put your foot down hard. 

When you express how you feel and she gets upset do you eventually give in because you feel like the bad guy? IF so, thats where you're going wrong. Its ok to be mad about it, and not like it and not tolerate it. Its NOT ok for her to continue to do things that are upsetting to you if she plans on being in a relationship with you.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Jackalope said:


> Hi. I've been lurking for some time and have found some really useful advice as well as some much needed validation. Thanks for that.
> 
> I'll try to make this short.
> 
> ...


You are totally justified.

And guess what, your wife has suffered no consequences for cheating on you.

She will never learn her lesson and hurt you again if you let her.

So step up and discuss boundaries with her. 


We always can improve ourselves as individuals. That is good.

But your wife is going out of her way to hurt you, especially with her friends.

Did she even practice safe sex?

And as far as getting in bed with her buddy, that was totally wrong. Comfortable or not.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

There are no boundaries here. She's in bed with another guy and she thought that was best for everyone? Has she lost her mind? She's already admitted to at least one adultery. She's trucking off for hours with another woman's husband? One who is an admitted "swinger"? She's (at the very least) shopping in a sex shop with this guy and God knows what else? Her "best friend" is a guy and she's essentially married and has been for 12 years and has a 6 year old kid and a house with another man? No married woman has any business having any intimate male friendships with any straight man. Not only is it just begging for trouble, it naturally creates concern and distrust and it violates the bonds of intimacy necessary in a marriage. "Best friends" talk...a lot...she can't help but discuss her marital business with her "best friend" who happens to be a guy with the sexual morals of a goat. 
I'd have to insist that she kick this guy and every other guy down the road and either commit totally to being with me or the deal would be completely off. She apparently believes you have no other options and that she can wipe dog crap on you forever and you'll just grin and accept it.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

You're not a jerk, in fact you need to start defending yourself. You're not married yet you choose to stay to a serial cheater who does not have remorse, regret or make reparations to the damage they cause. 

1) 
She withheld truth from you during the separation. Would you have gone back with her had she told you "I slept with someone else" during the separation? I think you would have thought twice.

2)
She had sex with a high school crush she met at a bar? She's going out like a single gal and by what you said shows she has absolutely NO boundaries of a woman who is in an "exclusive" relationship with the father of her child.

3)
She has a male friend? Now that's jolly good but not for a woman of this caliber who should not have any OSF (opposite sex friends) because they have no boundaries and can't be trusted. To top that off she goes to a bachelor party with him, was she the stripper or doing the bachelor a favor? She goes to a sex shop with ANOTHER man and you ask if you're being a jerk? Did you sleep with her that night that she went out to the sex shop?

4)
Check if the child is yours with a DNA test. Cheaters do not usually use protection with other married folks because you are their protection if they become pregnant.

5)
Have you checked yourself for std's after her first whor***? Do so please and do not have sex with her anymore! She will bargain you and hold you down.

------------------------------------------------
Look up WITTOL and CUCKOLD in the dictionary

It is a blend of witen "to know" and cuckewold (cuckold, which means a man who raises another mans child)

Wittol means 
'a man who knows his wife's infidelity or even condones his wife's enjoyment of coitus with another man or men'
'a witless person'

wittol - Wiktionary

Note: Women in the same position are cuckquean


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Dude you need some serious boundaries.

Your lady is walking all over you.

The swinger friend has got to go, it's non-negotiable.
The disrespect is palpable.

Wake up!!

Edit:

The only women I've ever seen at a bachelor party were nude and "busy".


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> *My wife stayed out late with him at his bachelor party *


 Dude!!!! :wtf:

Seriously? 


> *My wife stayed out late with him at his bachelor party *













*RED FLAG ALERT! DANGER, DANGER!*


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## Jonesey (Jul 11, 2011)

_He's also very demonstrative. He has, many times in the past, hugged her, kissed her and told her he loves her._ *He does this in front of me. *

And you did what?? There in lies your problem.. You see sharing
hotel room,and "she thought" it was for the best. Come on man!!

And the dude get´s away with it because??


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Jonesey said:


> _He's also very demonstrative. He has, many times in the past, hugged her, kissed her and told her he loves her._ *He does this in front of me. *
> 
> And you did what?? There in lies your problem.. You see sharing
> hotel room,and "she thought" it was for the best. Come on man!!
> ...


Should have


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## Jackalope (Apr 3, 2013)

Thanks for the replies. As for the bachelor party thing, I went too and left early to pick up the kid. It was co-ed, a lot of our friends were there and it was not a stripper-type thing. I really believe she believes their relationship is platonic but I don't know him that well and am abviously suspicious. Ya'll are probably right that I need to enforce some boundaries.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Jackalope said:


> Thanks for the replies. As for the bachelor party thing, I went too and left early to pick up the kid. It was co-ed, a lot of our friends were there and it was not a stripper-type thing. I really believe she believes their relationship is platonic but I don't know him that well and am abviously suspicious. Ya'll are probably right that I need to enforce some boundaries.


You shocked me. So much that I shouted "dude!" which is something I almost never do. Being a Brit I tend to say things like: "Steady on, old chap!" and: "What kind of a bloke would do that?"


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Cut your losses. She already told you ILYBINILWY. To her you're her buddy and the father (probably) of her child. She counts on you for emotional support as needed, but you're not the sole provider of emotions (just finances).

Move on, DNA the child and find someone else.


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## southernsurf (Feb 22, 2013)

What are you thinking, serious. You have given her so much rope its going to be almost impossible at this stage to reel her back in. You do know she’s doing this friend, right!! Your options are very limited; she wears the pants and walks all over you. You are trying to nice her to point she basically does what ever she pleases, no rules or boundaries. What do you want?


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Good Lord
At plain sight


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Let me buy you a copy of _No More Mr. Nice Guy_, Mr. Nice Guy.

She's doing this and you are worrying if she would think you are a jerk for setting boundaries? I think being a jerk is the least of your worries right now.


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## Jackalope (Apr 3, 2013)

Wow. So yeah, my situation sounds kinda ridiculous in light of all the comments. This was the little push I needed. I am going away for a few days starting tomorrow. I'm going to tell her she needs to think about what this relationship means to her and what she thinks the rules are/should be. I'll make my list. If they can't be reconciled then the choice is pretty obvious. If they can, then there can be some kind of accountability in the future. I.e., there are rules and it's clear if they've been broken.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

You let her sleep in bed with this guy? Are you out of your mind? If the roles were reversed would she have let you sleep in bed with another woman? She has no respect for you whatsoever. If you do not respect yourself then who will? She is playing you for a total fool and clearly thinks you are an idiot. This is unbelievable!


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Where do you stand on the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" situation? Has she ever told you she is once again "in love" with you? Or is ILYBINILWY still her official position?


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

I have sisters. Not women I think of as sisters, actual sisters. And we are pretty close. I am married and so are they.

If I was in a tough spot, and needed to stay in their hotel room, I would be more than welcome. But honestly, it would not occur to me to share a bed with them. If there was one bed and two of us, I would sleep on the floor.

When I was much younger, my friends and I had summer rentals at the beach or winter rentals at the ski slopes. All guys. Sometimes girl friends or other guys would stay over and there wouldn't be enough beds. I don't think any of us ever "shared" a bed. Just slept on the floor.

Sharing a bed is a pretty intimate act. Sharing a bed with a friend of the opposite sex seems way out of bounds.

That said, I've known some pretty messed up women with some pretty messed up boundaries. Not trying to be offensive to you, but 12 years together with a kid between you and still not married seems a little bit off to me, too, so maybe your wife's (and your) values are way off from my own.

Others may disagree, but I don't think this is a situation for you to be a hard head. I think you have to assume that your wife genuinely doesn't see anything wrong with some of her behavior. Or at least hasn't given it much thought. 

I think you have to clearly tell your "wife" what your boundaries are, but I would do it as gently as possible. I'm talking about the tone and attitude you do it with, not so much what the boundaries should be. The boundaries have to be firm and hard, but the way you tell her about them doesn't have to be.

She has to understand that you love her, that if she loves you, she will be willing to change certain things to make you feel comfortable, and if she doesn't, it is a dealbreaker for you. I would lead with the "love her" part and spend some time explaining how uncomfortable some things make you, without blaming her for them, then get to the dealbreaker part after you've made sure she knows how much you love her.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> I have sisters. Not women I think of as sisters, actual sisters. And we are pretty close. I am married and so are they.
> 
> If I was in a tough spot, and needed to stay in their hotel room, I would be more than welcome. But honestly, it would not occur to me to share a bed with them. If there was one bed and two of us, I would sleep on the floor.
> 
> ...


Well, Will, many years ago I shared a bed with a woman I was not married to. This was because someone had messed up the accommodation at a conference and there was only one bed left. 

I was single, she was very attractive, yet also very married, so I didn't even kiss her.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Jackalope said:


> Wow. So yeah, my situation sounds kinda ridiculous in light of all the comments. This was the little push I needed. I am going away for a few days starting tomorrow. I'm going to tell her she needs to think about what this relationship means to her and what she thinks the rules are/should be. I'll make my list. If they can't be reconciled then the choice is pretty obvious. If they can, then *there can be some kind of accountability in the future. I.e., there are rules and it's clear if they've been broken*.


This is your goal - bright-line type rules that are clear.

Understand, though, you are changing the rules in the middle of the game. You now are going to tell her that what you once let slide, you will let slide no more. Understand that she is not going to be happy about changing her way of life that she is happy with.

No question you've got to do it, but you can't approach it like she always should have known these were the rules and she's been breaking them. You have to let her know that you need this from now on, not blame her for past violations (other than the affair, which is fair game that she definitely knew was out-of-boundaries behavior).


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> She has to understand that you love her, that if she loves you, she will be willing to change certain things to make you feel comfortable, and if she doesn't, it is a dealbreaker for you. I would lead with the "love her" part and spend some time explaining how uncomfortable some things make you, without blaming her for them,* then get to the dealbreaker part after you've made sure she knows how much you love her.*


I agree with Will. I do want to emphasize that when you say "dealbreaker", you mean it in no uncertain terms. Do not qualify it. These are not loose boundaries that will bend. Will has it right. You love her and that is where the emphasis should be. Because you love her, this behavior makes you very uncomfortable; you have boundaries that cannot be crossed. No blame. Here are the boundaries and it is what it is.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Jackalope,

You are an adult, straight male. Since you were 12 years old, have you ever maintained a close, strictly personal, relationship with any non-relative female that you didn't at least secretly find sexually attractive? Have you ever engaged in repeated physical contact or sexual talk with a woman you wouldn't like to have sex with? You know how a guy thinks. You are one. My wife could tell me her male friend was "like a brother" "best friend" or "an English muffin". If he's a straight guy, I know he's got tang on the brain.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Jackalope,
> 
> You are an adult, straight male. Since you were 12 years old, have you ever maintained a close, strictly personal, relationship with any non-relative female that you didn't at least secretly find sexually attractive? Have you ever engaged in repeated physical contact or sexual talk with a woman you wouldn't like to have sex with? You know how a guy thinks. You are one. My wife could tell me her male friend was "like a brother" "best friend" or "an English muffin". If he's a straight guy, I know he's got tang on the brain.


The only women I know who have close guy friends who are only friends are either related to them or the guy is gay. Even if they are gay, it still qualifies as an EA.

Had a girlfriend in college who had a gay boyfriend. So ... she had the emotional connection with him ... and had sex with me. As great as she was as a fvck buddy, I could only take that for so long, so I dumped her. She was my "crazy" girlfriend. She actually contacted me on facebook a couple of years ago; took me about 5 minutes to realize after over 20 years, she is still crazy.


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