# Who's responsible? Media? Men? Women?



## Deejo

I was going to put this link up as an example for discussion in the other body image thread, but I didn't want to derail the gentleman's thread asking for input about his wife's BI issues.

We often talk about women being sexualized or held up to standards that they can't possibly meet.

And I often wonder, exactly whose standards are we talking about?

New Mom Under Fire for Postbaby Body Selfie

I really don't think all of it comes from men. Not that I'm looking to absolve men of being vocal about finding a particular body type attractive, but it seems to me that as is often the case with social dynamics;
the subject is a lot more complicated than it looks.

My ex-wife was sick throughout ALL of both pregnancies. She never gained more than 18 pounds with either child, and people used to give her sh!t about whether or not her behavior was going to harm her kids. Let me be specific ... women made those inuendos. Didn't matter that she threw up anything she ate for 9 months. They presumed that she was more focused on looking good (she was a personal trainer) than packing on weight during pregnancy, and it just wasn't the case.

So ... are women that do look good, or that try to promote looking good, being fit, and being critical of obesity seen as advocates of health and heroes, or as self-aggrandizing gender traitors and villains?


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## Jellybeans

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Personally, I find it AWESOME that she looks great and wants to look good and healthy. No hating from me at all. Good for her.


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## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Just did some checking around the site and noticed there are a few of these threads active at the moment.

And two of them allude to sources of critique or image issues that I hadn't considered, family.


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## Anon Pink

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Women are the biggest contributors to slamming other women. Too tall, too fat, too thin, too what ever. You never hear men say those kinds of things about other men and very rarely will you hear men so those kinds of things about women ... at least those men without a death wish 

I think you'll find that the vast majority of women with body image issues had mothers who contributed a large part of it. Mother daughter relationship is a tricky slope to navigate. I want my daughters to feel good about themselves but I also want them to put forth an appearance that shows some effort for the occasion.

My oldest two are wide like their father's side of the family. Helping them navigate the teens and the dictated fashion with their body type took Herculean effort. Trying to suggest they stick to styles that work for them, at the time a bare midriff was a must, was extremely delicate. But in the end I simply told them they looked fabulous and sent them on their way. They felt good and I just crossed my fingers that no one was mean to them if their body didn't look like the "popular kids" bodies.


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## ScarletBegonias

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I can't even count how many women have been cruel,catty,snobby,and downright nasty to me about my looks. I can't seem to think of any men who have been that way toward me.

I will ALWAYS feel it's women who do this to other women and to themselves as well IN ADDITION to the media pressure that is already there.


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## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

My experience is the exact opposite. I've never experienced catty, snobby, awful, judgmental women that AP and SB describe. But from the second I hit puberty, I was ridiculed by boys, and have heard men endlessly disparage even the most gorgeous of girls as too tall, too shirt, not enough boobs, too much boobs and so on.

But no doubt in my mind that culture and media feed our expectations. In a world where women are constantly presented as sex objects, starting from girlhood, and where women's value is all about how we look, it's not at all surprising to me that so many women have huge body image issues.

And, in a world that creates equality by treating everyone equally badly, it's no surprise to me that men are now rapidly catching up to women in things like cosmetic surgery, eating disorders, and general negative self image.


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## Married but Happy

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



ScarletBegonias said:


> I can't even count how many women have been cruel,catty,snobby,and downright nasty to me about my looks. I can't seem to think of any men who have been that way toward me.
> 
> I will ALWAYS feel it's women who do this to other women and to themselves as well IN ADDITION to the media pressure that is already there.


My wife experiences the same thing. When we go out with certain friends, she has gotten to the point where she will purposely look conservative or even "dowdy" or frumpy to divert attention, and not trigger a reaction from other wives. It's sad, but necessary to keep a social life with interesting people we like (aside from this one issue). It seems to help too, if we both compliment the other women.


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## Faithful Wife

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I've only heard women being down on *themselves* about their bodies. I have never had women get down on me for anything, looks, body, clothes...well, actually yeah clothes, but not anything b*tchy, just constructive stuff like "not those shoes with that outfit, try these".


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## Created2Write

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I worked at a retail store once. I worked a lot of opening shifts, and liked to sleep so I didn't wear makeup most of the time. One day I had a closing shift, so I decided to do my makeup. One of the other female workers, a couple of years younger than me, looked right at me and said, to my face, "Oh, wow. You actually can be pretty." 

I laughed out loud. The group of girls around us all looked at her like, "Wtf?" but I just laughed. 

I've never had a guy say anything like that to me. Ever.


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## Fozzy

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I've joked with my wife in the past that you can tell how good looking a woman is without even seeing her, just based on how much smacktalking other women do about her behind her back.


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## Coffee Amore

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

If that's really her body four days after giving birth then good for her. She's hit the genetic lottery that's for sure. Duchess Kate Middleton leaving the hospital still had a noticeable post-partum bump and that's what most women *I* know look like four days after giving birth.

And on the flip side, why is it so shameful for a woman who just had a baby to look as if she birthed a child?


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## Rowan

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I, too, have managed to avoid being the target of other women's scorn over how I look. Well, at least since we all got past that middle school and high school mean-girl thing. It just occurred to me that perhaps that's because I'm not pretty enough to elicit jealousy from other women. Pretty much no one feels threatened by me. Besides, I dislike catty women and try to avoid them. Maybe I'm just not around the ones who would be catty about my looks?

As for the mom in that link, I congratulate Ms. Eriksen on her lovely body. But I also am somewhat dubious that any woman - even a fitness blogger - has abs like that, or is wearing lingerie like that, at _4 days _post-partum. I know not every new mom looks fat and frumpy. But we're pretty much all - even the slim, fit, ones - drippy, soggy and kinda lumpy for at least a couple weeks after delivery. I mean, how on earth did she get her uterus to shrink back to normal that quickly?

I'm also a little concerned that young men, seeing images like that of a new mom, will think that's what all new moms "should" look like. She looks fantastic, but the vast majority of new mothers are not capable of looking like that so soon after giving birth. She's a marvel of nature, not the norm.


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## Cosmos

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I think _both_ genders objectify women, but women are the 'enforcers' because they actually buy into these things by comparing themselves and trying to live up to society's perception of 'perfection.'

At every stage of my life I've taken good care of my appearance, but I've never fallen into the trap of comparing myself to others or following any standards other than my own. I'm not vain, but I'm happy with the way I look and always have been.


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## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



FrenchFry said:


> Women do it to each other because it's considered the biggest source of power we have and taking that away hurts the most.


Ouch.

I just find the social media frenzy that these subjects seem to stir, very interesting.

Overwhelmingly, the comments were made by women. I'm not assigning anything outside the context of the discussion to that fact. It surprised me, honestly. But what you said above hammered it home.

I just keep wondering if these kind of responses in social media reflect the true undercurrent of the far greater whole, or if its just an outlier of those that want to be seen, or heard?


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Whatever! I'm normally about 105 and gained 50-60 pounds with each kid (at 26, 36 and nearly 40) and within 6 months was back to pre-pregnancy weight. If you intend to nurse your babies the way Mother Nature intended you to, the extra body fat after birth is a natural and healthy thing. It's probably a bit outdated as we don't have to worry about food supply for the calories to make the milk these days, but that's a first world thing, as are selfies.


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## Jellybeans

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Married but Happy said:


> My wife experiences the same thing. When we go out with certain friends, she has gotten to the point where she will purposely look conservative or even "dowdy" or frumpy to divert attention, and not trigger a reaction from other wives. It's sad, but necessary to keep a social life with interesting people we like (aside from this one issue). It seems to help too, if we both compliment the other women.


That is really sad. And I'd hardly call them friends if they are being d!cks to her. I personally would NEVER dress dowdy or purposely go out of my way to dress "down" just to appease other people. No fckin way.

I am a fashion girl, through and through, and a Latina to boot and well, the stereotype of wanting to look nice and wearing clothes that make me look nice is the freakin truth (for me, anyway). I do not think there is anything wrong with wanting to look presentable and attractive.



Deejo said:


> Overwhelmingly, the comments were made by women. I'm not assigning anything outside the context of the discussion to that fact. It surprised me, honestly. But what you said above hammered it home.


I think anyone who is saying that woman looks bad is a hater. She looks awesome. 



Deejo said:


> I just keep wondering if these kind of responses in social media reflect the true undercurrent of the far greater whole, or if its just an outlier of those that want to be seen, or heard?


Eh, it may reflect haters but not the truth for everyone. Each individual will have a different opinion on the matter.


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## Faithful Wife

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Deejo...have you seen any of the "real women" campaign ads, and the nasty, horrible comments MEN make (anonymously, of course) like "who wants to see fat chicks?" and "get her back to the gym"? I'll see if I can find it....


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## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Faithful Wife said:


> Deejo...have you seen any of the "real women" campaign ads, and the nasty, horrible comments MEN make (anonymously, of course) like "who wants to see fat chicks?" and "get her back to the gym"? I'll see if I can find it....


Did a quick search after your question. Is this the ad campaign you mean?










I find it hard to imagine that anyone would want to criticize these women, unless the perception is that they aren't 'real enough'.


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## Jellybeans

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



FrenchFry said:


> :lol: Haters do stay hating, it's true.


:iagree:


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## hawkeye

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Deejo said:


> Did a quick search after your question. Is this the ad campaign you mean?
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> I find it hard to imagine that anyone would want to criticize these women, unless the perception is that they aren't 'real enough'.


Any talk of "real women" is just more shaming, but of thin or fit chicks. Like they're not "real" unless they have some fat on them.


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## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Coffee Amore said:


> And on the flip side, why is it so shameful for a woman who just had a baby to look as if she birthed a child?


Good question!

The assumption here seems to be that women who are commenting negatively must be hating because someone else is beautiful. But I think a lot of the reaction migt be just because women are tired of being asked "what's your excuse?" when they fail to meet idealized expectations.

My excuse? I just housed a growing human being for 9mths, then took 21 hours to push it out of my body, and I'm flippin' exhausted. I damn well do deserve a rest. 

You look lovely though. Good for you!


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## heartsbeating

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Rowan said:


> I, too, have managed to avoid being the target of other women's scorn over how I look. Well, at least since we all got past that middle school and high school mean-girl thing. It just occurred to me that perhaps that's because I'm not pretty enough to elicit jealousy from other women. Pretty much no one feels threatened by me. Besides, I dislike catty women and try to avoid them. Maybe I'm just not around the ones who would be catty about my looks?


I feel similarly.

The women I'm surrounded by happen to be gorgeous. It's not that I'm bias. They have wonderful dress sense, take pride in how they look, and are beautiful, warm people on top of it all. I can't think of a time when there's been criticism or nastiness about other women amongst us. I don't surround myself with people like that. If we have goals related to fitness, we encourage one another. One friend is down on herself - her own body image. She looks like Olivia Newton-John and has the most dazzling smile I've ever seen. Her body image isn't great though. Where does this stem from? I'm not sure. I have moments of self-consciousness, same as the next woman, that would stem from childhood but I don't view other women a threat. There's all sorts of beauty around and deserves to be celebrated. 

Another friend owns how she looks. She is confident and curvaceous and isn't swayed by media images and such. Being around her has a flow-on effect to me too. Conversely, where does her secure sense of self stem from?

Even no baby, I don't look like the woman posted by Deejo! haha more power to her. I also like Coffee Amore's take on what's wrong with looking like you just had a baby? Similar to aging. What's so wrong with looking the age we're at?


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## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

As for the picture of the woman, I'd bet it's fair to say that less than a fraction of 1% of women are going to look like they didn't have a baby, after just having a baby. It ISN'T the norm. I don't believe anyone thinks it is, or should be.

That's why from this man's perspective I don't understand the vitriol. She is the outlier. Whether she felt good about herself or was somehow showing off can be speculated upon all day, but I don't think ANYONE expects that should be the norm for women.

Just as, I can speculate that neither does anyone believe that the norm should be morbidly obese for women.

Ain't nuthin' wrong with average. After all, that's what most of us are.


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## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

The thing is, you don't see a lot of average in the media. And you don't see average being promoted in the media as desirable. 

Everywhere you look, non-average women are promoted as the ideal and what a woman should aspire to (buy this pill to lose that belly fat! use this wrinkle cream! try this master cleanse and don't call it starvation!). Young women internalize this and find it hard not to buy into it when they don't ever see average or aging women and only see thin and young as the women men desire.


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## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Deejo said:


> As for the picture of the woman, I'd bet it's fair to say that less than a fraction of 1% of women are going to look like they didn't have a baby, after just having a baby. It ISN'T the norm. I don't believe anyone thinks it is, or should be.
> 
> *That's why from this man's perspective I don't understand the vitriol. She is the outlier. Whether she felt good about herself or was somehow showing off can be speculated upon all day, but I don't think ANYONE expects that should be the norm for women.*
> 
> Just as, I can speculate that neither does anyone believe that the norm should be morbidly obese for women.
> 
> Ain't nuthin' wrong with average. After all, that's what most of us are.


That's how it starts. When the outlier is all that is lauded and highlighted and on every billboard around you, it becomes a perceived norm.


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## TiggyBlue

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



norajane said:


> The thing is, you don't see a lot of average in the media. And you don't see average being promoted in the media as desirable.
> 
> Everywhere you look, non-average women are promoted as the ideal and what a woman should aspire to (buy this pill to lose that belly fat! use this wrinkle cream! try this master cleanse and don't call it starvation!). Young women internalize this and find it hard not to buy into it when they don't ever see average or aging women and only see thin and young as the women men desire.


:iagree:
I remember reading somewhere that marketing plays on women's insecurities and men's fantasies.


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## Cosmos

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



TiggyBlue said:


> :iagree:
> I remember reading somewhere that marketing plays on women's insecurities and men's fantasies.


I agree. But if women stopped buying into this stuff, the media wouldn't have a market for its unrealistic spin.


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## TiggyBlue

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Cosmos said:


> I agree. But if women stopped buying into this stuff, the media wouldn't have a market for its unrealistic spin.


Definitely, that imo starts with educating girls that these ads/marketing strategies are designed to make you feel insecure, because you're much more likely to spend money on there product's if you feel insecure and buying into the airbrushing they spew at you rather than if you're happy as you are.


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## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Cosmos said:


> I agree. But if women stopped buying into this stuff, the media wouldn't have a market for its unrealistic spin.


If *people* stopped buying into it, maybe. And not just a few, but a majority.

I've refused to buy into it, and all my life have bucked the trend. All it has accomplished is to make me a freak, unattractive to the majority of men and existing on an alternate plane than a lot of women.

I'm okay with that. It was, after all, my choice. But it's nowhere near as simple as "not buying into it"

"_The most unpardonable sin in society is independence of thought_"


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## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



TiggyBlue said:


> Definitely, that imo starts with educating girls that these ads/marketing strategies are designed to make you feel insecure, because you're much more likely to spend money on there product's if you feel insecure and buying into the airbrushing they spew at you rather than if you're happy as you are.


Oh, that is so so hard to do! You're the lone voice in the wilderness, and everything else around them is telling them something entirely different...including the boys in their class who are already drooling over the Victoria's Secret catalogs.


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## samyeagar

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



norajane said:


> Oh, that is so so hard to do! You're the lone voice in the wilderness, and everything else around them is telling them something entirely different...including the boys in their class who are already drooling over the Victoria's Secret catalogs.


...and the girls who are drooling over Justin Bieber, One Direction, Adam Levine, Channing Tatum...


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## TiggyBlue

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



norajane said:


> Oh, that is so so hard to do! You're the lone voice in the wilderness, and everything else around them is telling them something entirely different...including the boys in their class who are already drooling over the Victoria's Secret catalogs.


I guess that in a way was where I was lucky, my mum didn't/wouldn't have fashion/celeb magazines in the house and when I was younger pointed out to me marketing at a very young age. A lone voice can have a very big impact to the people around when it says the right things.


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## Coffee Amore

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Have you heard of the organization A Mighty Girl? A Mighty Girl is the world’s largest collection of books, toys, movies, and music for parents, teachers, and others dedicated to raising smart, confident, and courageous girls.

The site was founded on the belief that all children should have the opportunity to read books, play with toys, listen to music, and watch movies that offer positive messages about girls and honor their diverse capabilities. 

Girls do not have to be relegated to the role of sidekick or damsel in distress; they can be the leaders, the heroes, the champions that save the day, find the cure, and go on the adventure.


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## VermisciousKnid

*Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Anon Pink said:


> I think you'll find that the vast majority of women with body image issues had mothers who contributed a large part of it. Mother daughter relationship is a tricky slope to navigate. I want my daughters to feel good about themselves but I also want them to put forth an appearance that shows some effort for the occasion.


On mothers and daughters and body image:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4078192/

I think it's pretty awesome.


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## soulpotato

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Cosmos said:


> I agree. But if women stopped buying into this stuff, the media wouldn't have a market for its unrealistic spin.


Except there's all that brainwashing from such an early age...pretty hard to fight something that has been internalized AFTER the fact. Once you realize there's something to fight, you have to pry it out of your head with a crowbar, and be forever vigilant. It's exhausting.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Coffee Amore said:


> And on the flip side, why is it so shameful for a woman who just had a baby to look as if she birthed a child?


What I want to know is where is she hiding the super maxi size sanitary pad? :rofl:


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## Davelli0331

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I saw that article a few days ago. I was a bit floored at the amount of shaming directed at the women for being fit, though her responses didn't seem to help much.

It's no wonder that so many people have body image issues when you consider our culture's obsession with beauty and genetic perfection, especially combined with our ability these days to digitally alter images.

However, I think those shaming comments underscore a trend to go too far the other direction. It's one thing to accept that genetics gave you a big nose or broad shoulders or curly hair when you'd rather something else. It's quite another to celebrate obesity that is the result of an unhealthy lifestyle.

I recognize of course that there are many conditions outside of one's control that prevent people from losing weight.


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## soulpotato

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Some really terrific comments on this thread!! 

I have always tried to be myself and have done my best not to worry about what others think of my appearance, body, etc. I try to consciously reject the most toxic things that society directs at women (which is a constant barrage). But it is damned difficult when other people insist on carrying it forward - you really can't get away from it. I have received insulting remarks from both men and women, in various forms. I have heard the, "Ohh, you could be so much prettier if you would just do your hair or wear make-up," dozens of times. Yeah, because that is _all_ that matters. Get real. I can't stand those people.

Even my partner, who is as beautiful as can be, has been the recipient of stupid criticisms and insults from people.

Often it seems that if you're female, what's in your head doesn't matter. You're expected to spend an inordinate amount of time and energy primping and preening and making sure you match some arbitrary standard of perfection in case anyone looks at you. Ugh!!!


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## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Davelli0331 said:


> It's quite another to celebrate obesity that is the result of an unhealthy lifestyle.
> 
> I recognize of course that there are many conditions outside of one's control that prevent people from losing weight.


Oh my. You interpret the reaction to this as a celebration of obesity and unhealthy living? Oh my. I barely have words.

Oh wait. Let me start by pointing out that the picture was captioned "What's your excuse". The whole exercise from the beginning was to shame women for not looking like her. And anyone is surprised that many reacted negatively to this?

Then, let's consider that we're talking about pregnancy, not unhealthy lifestyle. You try growing and birthing an 8lb baby without gaining any weight or having your body bent out of shape.

I didn't read the comments, but I totally believe that many women reacted very negatively to this post. But to call it a "celebration of obesity" is about as far off as an interpretation can get, IMHO. Much more likely that most of it was a negative reaction to being told, once again, that regular women are just "making excuses" because they do not meet someone else's fitness ideals.


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## Davelli0331

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I obviously said in my post that conditions exist that keep people from losing weight, which would include pregnancy. 

I also clearly stated that the woman acted boorishly herself. 

Perhaps quote my entire post next time.


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## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Davelli0331 said:


> I obviously said in my post that conditions exist that keep people from losing weight, which would include pregnancy.
> 
> I also clearly stated that the woman acted boorishly herself.
> 
> Perhaps quote my entire post next time.


I could've quoted your whole post, and I would've made the same comment. I still can't fathom how you get from a negative reaction to a shaming tactic about not losing weight after pregnancy to a celebration of obesity and an unhealthy lifestyle.

Those dots just don't connect.


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## wilderness

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I have an opinion that is different than most. I dont believe there is pressure on woman in modern day society to be thin, but rather to be fat. At least in the US, woman are fatter than they have ever been and encouraged to be so. I believe it would be a good thing for society to frown upon fat women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Davelli0331

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



always_alone said:


> I could've quoted your whole post, and I would've made the same comment. I still can't fathom how you get from a negative reaction to a shaming tactic about not losing weight after pregnancy to a celebration of obesity and an unhealthy lifestyle.
> 
> Those dots just don't connect.


The shaming comments on that article are quite similar to comments I see elsewhere online and quite a bit on my FB feed. Granted, the woman practically invited the scorn upon herself with the caption. Still, I see a lot of very clearly obese women (as in 50-60 lbs overweight or more) on my FB feed celebrating their bodies by posting all kinds of images and quotes related to "curvy" women. I personally love curvy women over rail thin, but these women are not "curvy", they are obese, and in some cases, morbidly so.

What's more, I personally know most of these women, and they eat out or eat fast food 4-5 times a week and are not by any stretch of the imagination active. However, I see these kinds of women shaming others who do take the time and effort to remain in decent health.

Of course, as I said, there are many conditions (including pregnancy) that keep people from being able to lose weight. And there are many attractive women, like Jennifer Lawrence, who are rebelling against the media's idea of the "perfect" woman, too.


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## TiggyBlue

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



wilderness said:


> I have an opinion that is different than most. I dont believe there is pressure on woman in modern day society to be thin, but rather to be fat. At least in the US, woman are fatter than they have ever been and encouraged to be so. I believe it would be a good thing for society to frown upon fat women.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Couldn't that be said about the US (and some other western countries) in general, the obesity levels in both men and women have risen drastically. Are men also being encouraged to be fat then?

Personally I thing celebrating overweight as healthy is no different than celebrating underweight as healthy.


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## Davelli0331

*Re: Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



TiggyBlue said:


> Couldn't that be said about the US (and some other western countries) in general, the obesity levels in both men and women have risen drastically. Are men also being encouraged to be fat then?


I think so. Or rather, I think our lifestyle of convenience and apathy over health has driven both men and women to obesity, and that much of the current "accept yourself as you are" is our culture trying to rationalize all that as being not your fault and therefore OK.


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## TiggyBlue

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Davelli0331 said:


> I think so. Or rather, I think our lifestyle of convenience and apathy over health has driven both men and women to obesity, and that much of the current "accept yourself as you are" is our culture trying to rationalize all that as being not your fault and therefore OK.


:iagree:
Unhealthy food is cheap and convenient, also so many additives are added to junk food to keep people craving them it's pretty sickening. 
Plus it seems like dieting on the whole is designed more to get to a certain size rather than improving health.


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## ocotillo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



FrenchFry said:


> Here is a great feminist take on things:


Isn't a more basic explanation for what this woman is talking about simply that boys tend to be more physical in peer dynamics, which is far easier to stamp out by the time they reach adulthood via law enforcement and judicial review than mental and emotional bullying, which always has an element of deniability?


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## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Davelli0331 said:


> The shaming comments on that article are quite similar to comments I see elsewhere online and quite a bit on my FB feed. Granted, the woman practically invited the scorn upon herself with the caption. Still, I see a lot of very clearly obese women (as in 50-60 lbs overweight or more) on my FB feed celebrating their bodies by posting all kinds of images and quotes related to "curvy" women. I personally love curvy women over rail thin, but these women are not "curvy", they are obese, and in some cases, morbidly so.
> 
> What's more, I personally know most of these women, and they eat out or eat fast food 4-5 times a week and are not by any stretch of the imagination active. However, I see these kinds of women shaming others who do take the time and effort to remain in decent health.


Ah, okay, I see what you're saying now -- although my experience differs. The women I know who are obese are far too busy feeling terrible about themselves to have time to shame others.

I agree, though, that boosting yourself up by putting others down is pretty low. It's one thing to want to build up one's self-esteem, but altogether another to sh*t all over others to get there.


----------



## techmom

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I think that this is a great discussion. Both men and women are bombarded with images of the perfect man or woman. Historically, women bore the brunt of the pressure of perfection. In my family, my mom's side is mostly heavy, my dad's side is normal to thin. I took after my mom's side of the family and I was constantly reminded by my grandmother to watch my weight since I was a young girl. Everytime I ate a bit too much she would say, "You're going to be as big as a house!" Needless to say I grew up hating my genetics.

Six years ago, I witnessed what overweight did to people's health and the food industry and how it was destroying health. I became a vegetarian. My mother died a couple of years later of congestive heart failure and she weighed 400 pounds. I was convinced that I did not want to die early, so I started to lose weight.

Now, I am a healthy weight and I'm active. I believe that the media does no one any favors by shaming and then advertising fast food. We need to reject the media as our guides in how we conduct our lives and use the evidence around us to propel us into healthy living.


----------



## Coffee Amore

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I found this amusing...


----------



## heartsbeating

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

^ Dude looking back over his shoulder. What a classic pose!


----------



## heartsbeating

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



soulpotato said:


> Except there's all that brainwashing from such an early age...pretty hard to fight something that has been internalized AFTER the fact. Once you realize there's something to fight, you have to pry it out of your head with a crowbar, and be forever vigilant. It's exhausting.


I think that's the ticket... and I'm not saying it's easy when we've perhaps been conditioned, however once we have clarity, seeing what we've been sold and bought into, playing on insecurities and ego, well, it's then that we have the choice to free ourselves of that. And accept ourselves for who we are. Acceptance doesn't mean complacency. It doesn't mean we can't work towards being fitter, eating healthier, a desired shape, while still accepting ourselves - this is the package I have to work with. When there's an awareness, there's options for alternative thoughts and actions. Rather than exhausting, I think it could be completely liberating.


----------



## heartsbeating

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



norajane said:


> The thing is, you don't see a lot of average in the media. And you don't see average being promoted in the media as desirable.
> 
> Everywhere you look, non-average women are promoted as the ideal and what a woman should aspire to (buy this pill to lose that belly fat! use this wrinkle cream! try this master cleanse and don't call it starvation!). Young women internalize this and find it hard not to buy into it when they don't ever see average or aging women and only see thin and young as the women men desire.


Maybe it's persnickety (new word in my vocab, thanks to TAM) to ask this, but where does the view of 'average' stem from? Average in comparison to...? What is average?


----------



## heartsbeating

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Last year my dad commented on my weight. He's a man of few words and this was a surprise. While he was visiting, my husband and I took him out to lunch. Hubs went to the restroom and my dad said "I know I probably shouldn't say this, but ...you're getting a big bum." He said he noticed it in the particular outfit I was wearing. I shrugged and acknowledged I'd gained a little weight since he'd last seen me. I'm not overweight. Hubs returned to the table. I told him "Dad just told me I have a big bum." Without skipping a beat, hubs said "I love your bum as it is." Then looked to my dad's large belly and asked "And how's your fitness regime going?" My dad chuckled and looked embarrassed.


----------



## Cosmos

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



always_alone said:


> If *people* stopped buying into it, maybe. And not just a few, but a majority.
> 
> I've refused to buy into it, and all my life have bucked the trend. All it has accomplished is to make me a freak, unattractive to the majority of men and existing on an alternate plane than a lot of women.
> 
> I'm okay with that. It was, after all, my choice. But it's nowhere near as simple as "not buying into it"
> 
> "_The most unpardonable sin in society is independence of thought_"


No, there's nothing simple about it, but it's the only choice available, IMO.

There was a bit of an uproar in the UK a few years back because a department store started selling padded bras for little girls, and they were pressured into withdrawing them. IMO, it starts with things like that. We need to be very careful what we're teaching girls from a very young age, in order to make them less receptive later on. 

The problem might well start with the media but, IMO, the responsibility lies with how we educate our children. They need to be taught that their self-esteem comes from within, and healthy ways to build and nurture it. We need to find ways to stop the negative brainwashing.


----------



## Davelli0331

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Coffee Amore said:


> I found this amusing...


I actually kinda think the 2nd and 4th pics of the regular dudes are good pics. I wouldn't be embarrassed about them, anyway.


----------



## Davelli0331

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



heartsbeating said:


> I think that's the ticket... and I'm not saying it's easy when we've perhaps been conditioned, however once we have clarity, seeing what we've been sold and bought into, playing on insecurities and ego, well, it's then that we have the choice to free ourselves of that. And accept ourselves for who we are. *Acceptance doesn't mean complacency. It doesn't mean we can't work towards being fitter, eating healthier, a desired shape, while still accepting ourselves - this is the package I have to work with.* When there's an awareness, there's options for alternative thoughts and actions. Rather than exhausting, I think it could be completely liberating.


That's essentially how I feel about it. When my W is exercising regularly I find myself much more attracted to her whether her weight is changing or not. It has nothing to do with her weight and everything to do with my seeing her as taking care of herself and putting time into her health. This is important to me as I've watched my parents, brother, and best friend treat their bodies so poorly that they've all gotten the familiar conditions associated with obesity.

Not that I find my W unattractive when she doesn't exercise, it just enhances what I already like about her 



heartsbeating said:


> Last year my dad commented on my weight. He's a man of few words and this was a surprise. While he was visiting, my husband and I took him out to lunch. Hubs went to the restroom and my dad said "I know I probably shouldn't say this, but ...you're getting a big bum." He said he noticed it in the particular outfit I was wearing. I shrugged and acknowledged I'd gained a little weight since he'd last seen me. I'm not overweight. Hubs returned to the table. I told him "Dad just told me I have a big bum." Without skipping a beat, hubs said "I love your bum as it is." Then looked to my dad's large belly and asked "And how's your fitness regime going?" My dad chuckled and looked embarrassed.


Nice! I'm writing this one down for future use. Anything for brownie points.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Deejo said:


> So ... are women that do look good, or that try to promote looking good, being fit, and being critical of obesity seen as advocates of health and heroes, or as self-aggrandizing gender traitors and villains?


I think that individuals are wholly responsible for their own perceptions of things or people , ultimately.
I almost always chide men I have known for sometime , because they have beer gut , or put on a lot of weight. Doesn't matter how we want to turn and twist it, fat / obesity is unhealthy and sometimes unattractive in most cases.

It is a person's responsibility to deal with their health and body image issues no matter what their body type. It might be more difficult for some than others, nevertheless, it's your responsibility.

If you are comfortable with your body, then that's ok, live your life as you see fit.But don't be overly critical of your body and blame the media , or others who work on their bodies. If you are uncomfortable with your body, then do something about it, work on it.

Being fit and healthy does not automatically equate what the media says is fit and healthy. Set your own realistic , fitness goals and commit yourself to it.

Stop trying to shame other people who pursue their fitness goals , achieve and maintain it.
It is no different from lazy people, griping and shaming other people who work hard and are successful financially and / or in their careers, marriages and academic pursuits.

I work hard to keep my body looking in a fit healthy condition.
My wife does the same.
I don't eat crappy , unhealthy foods ,and some people think my diet is " boring." They eat all the exciting foods and look like sh!t , yet they want to shame me for my lifestyle, and hate on the fact that my wife, and other women like her , look how she does...


The reason why those fitness models in the AD's bodies look so good is because they make sacrifices and treat their bodies good.
If you don't make the necessary sacrifices and treat your body good then how under heavens can you expect the same results?


----------



## Anon Pink

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



heartsbeating said:


> last year my dad commented on my weight. He's a man of few words and this was a surprise. While he was visiting, my husband and i took him out to lunch. Hubs went to the restroom and my dad said "i know i probably shouldn't say this, but ...you're getting a big bum." he said he noticed it in the particular outfit i was wearing. I shrugged and acknowledged i'd gained a little weight since he'd last seen me. I'm not overweight. Hubs returned to the table. I told him "dad just told me i have a big bum." without skipping a beat, hubs said "i love your bum as it is." then looked to my dad's large belly and asked "and how's your fitness regime going?" my dad chuckled and looked embarrassed.



View attachment 12938


----------



## Anon Pink

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Coffee Amore said:


> I found this amusing...


When I was learning to be okay with ALL of my body, I started to notice how I DIDNT notice men's bodies. Even average to below average male bodies still look very male and still are attractive to me. 

While the media plays a role in presenting unrealistic ideals, we are the ones responsible for accepting the unrealistic as ideal.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



always_alone said:


> I could've quoted your whole post, and I would've made the same comment. I still can't fathom how you get from a negative reaction to a shaming tactic about not losing weight after pregnancy to a celebration of obesity and an unhealthy lifestyle.
> 
> Those dots just don't connect.


He was actually paraphrasing the fundamental stance of the "What's your excuse?" mom.
Her standpoint is that society is moving towards blanket acceptance, excuses for, and celebration of a lifestyle that is fundamentally unhealthy, for children, men and women. Her words. And I don't disagree with them.
Most simply prefer to be offended by her tag-line, which again, she claims was intended to be empowering, not offensive.

Doesn't sound like you buy that.

That message is unlikely to be clear to anyone that didn't read about her beyond the controversial phrase. 

We have a few things in play here surrounding the fit-mom, and flat belly pregnancy lady, primarily surrounding body image and how others perceive women such as those in the link. Are they to be celebrated, or castigated? They got heaps of both. Mostly from other women.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Deejo said:


> We have a few things in play here surrounding the fit-mom, and flat belly pregnancy lady, primarily surrounding body image and how others perceive women such as those in the link. *Are they to be celebrated, or castigated? They got heaps of both. Mostly from other women.*


And I think they are to be celebrated, just like any other woman who's achieved success in any other type of endeavour .

I think we need to stop that culture of hatred and the justification of hatred. There's always something to hate. That's normal. 
Awesome people achieve, and other awesome people genuinely celebrate the achievements of others, and let it inspire them.

I think it's kind of petty, to castigate them or even the media who promote them.


----------



## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Cosmos said:


> No, there's nothing simple about it, but it's the only choice available, IMO.
> 
> There was a bit of an uproar in the UK a few years back because a department store started selling padded bras for little girls, and they were pressured into withdrawing them. IMO, it starts with things like that. We need to be very careful what we're teaching girls from a very young age, in order to make them less receptive later on.
> 
> The problem might well start with the media but, IMO, the responsibility lies with how we educate our children. They need to be taught that their self-esteem comes from within, and healthy ways to build and nurture it. We need to find ways to stop the negative brainwashing.


:iagree:. Totally.

I wouldn't necessarily say the problem starts with the media, which is mostly just parasitic, capitalizing on what's already out there. But we do need to think very carefully about what we take for granted and what we teach our children.

In the not so distant past, girls had very few choices available to them and attracting a man was high on the list of life accomplishments. We've come a long way from there, and that's fabulous. But the focus is still on image, and the encouragement to be a sexpot at all times, and at younger and younger ages is downright disturbing.


----------



## Cosmos

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



always_alone said:


> :iagree:. Totally.
> 
> I wouldn't necessarily say the problem starts with the media, which is mostly just parasitic, capitalizing on what's already out there.


:iagree:

It's rather like ads for tobacco. People brought up in a health conscious environment were less likely to be overly influenced by those sort of ads, but even banning the ads hasn't eradicated the consumption of tobacco by others... It's all about positive education and awareness.


----------



## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Deejo said:


> That message is unlikely to be clear to anyone that didn't read about her beyond the controversial phrase.
> 
> We have a few things in play here surrounding the fit-mom, and flat belly pregnancy lady, primarily surrounding body image and how others perceive women such as those in the link. Are they to be celebrated, or castigated? They got heaps of both. Mostly from other women.


Guilty as charged. While I find the topic of body image very interesting, I'm not all that interested in this woman and what she has to say. So I read the caption, the article, and about 3 comments, and that's it.

But, as so many women have pointed out here, her story does not ring true on many levels, and if that tagline is meant to be empowering, then she needs to hire an image consultant. I mean, c'mon, how can "what's your excuse" be interpreted as anything but provocative?


----------



## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Caribbean Man said:


> I think we need to stop that culture of hatred and the justification of hatred. There's always something to hate. That's normal.
> Awesome people achieve, and other awesome people genuinely celebrate the achievements of others, and let it inspire them.
> 
> I think it's kind of petty, to castigate them or even the media who promote them.


I agree that a culture of hatred is absolutely undesirable, but I fail to see why criticizing someone for being out of touch, or self-promoting, or self-righteous is any more petty than chiding them about a bit of weight gain.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

When I saw that "what's your excuse" lady my knee jerk response was "and who the f**k are you,missperfect?" Then I looked at the picture and her babies again and asked myself "what IS my excuse??" I don't have 3 babies,I have great hours,and loads of free time at my disposal.

I think my initial reaction was a defense mechanism mixed with serious jealousy.She has a bangin body and I don't.Instead of hating her or feeling threatened by her I'm making a conscious choice to learn from her bc while I don't need a body like hers I would like to get some tips on time management and motivation from her.

I guess it's all about how you view the message.I think it's a great message if you can get over the no nonsense,no coddling approach.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

wWhat jolted me into action were two things.

1] A mild heart attack at age 39.
2] A youtube vid of a greying , 70 - something yr old man in much better physical shape than me.

I realized it was my life , my body and I had two choices. 
Continue making excuses or grab the bull by it's horns , and do something about it.


----------



## richie33

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Caribbean Man said:


> wWhat jolted me into action were two things.
> 
> 1] A mild heart attack at age 39.
> 2] A youtube vid of a greying , 70 - something yr old man in much better physical shape than me.
> 
> I realized it was my life , my body and I had two choices.
> Continue making excuses or grab the bull by it's horns , and do something about it.


For most its way easier to complain about it.


----------



## Davelli0331

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

It's a debate I've seen played out on TAM and IRL umpteen times, and it's not always restricted to just women. It's always a very fierce debate as it touches on a couple very basic human concepts, in this case attractiveness and self worth. It's a touchy subject, to be sure.

As far as who is "to blame", I think we all shoulder a bit of it. We like to blame "the media" for it, but we're the ones consuming the media, and the media wouldn't keep serving up that imagery if it weren't successful and highly lucrative.

We could blame "men" for these unrealistic expectations, and I think there's truth to that. However, I also think that's a bit overblown and cliche. Most men are in fact _not_ married to super models and yet still think their wives are the most beautiful women EVAR. Emotions play a part in that, of course.

Many women blame other women, and I think there's some truth to that, too. I've seen on TAM a million times the phrase "women don't compete _for _men, they compete _with _other women".

I approach physical fitness as a personal choice. I choose to work out and eat healthy. Others do not, and that's fine by me. When I take issue is when people begin projecting and therefore become overly reactionary about it.

Let's face it, American culture is among other things the culture of victimhood. Again, while I completely recognize there are physical conditions and scenarios that prevent or preclude weight loss, for most Americans, their weight is simply a function of an unhealthy lifestyle. That's where I tend to agree with the woman in the article in that this "accept yourself as you are" idea is becoming dangerous because it reinforces that victim mentality to many people that their weight is something that "just happened to them" and outside of their control.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



always_alone said:


> Guilty as charged. While I find the topic of body image very interesting, I'm not all that interested in this woman and what she has to say. So I read the caption, the article, and about 3 comments, and that's it.
> 
> But, as so many women have pointed out here, her story does not ring true on many levels, and if that tagline is meant to be empowering, then she needs to hire an image consultant. I mean, c'mon, how can "what's your excuse" be interpreted as anything but provocative?


I'd say she got what she was looking for. Nothing adds hits to pages or attention to a subject like courting controversy.

The issue then becomes as aptly seen with these examples that the message gets lost, and people just focus on the messenger.

Personally I agree with the "What's Your Excuse?" tagline.

Overwhelmingly that is exactly what people offer up, rather than taking responsibility and action for anything, be it body image, fitness, diet, self-awareness ... or any challenging lifestyle change.

Doesn't mean that I find obese men and women offensive. But I do find trying to soft-peddle poor diet, poor health, apathy and complacency padded by excuses, offensive.


----------



## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



heartsbeating said:


> Maybe it's persnickety (new word in my vocab, thanks to TAM) to ask this, but where does the view of 'average' stem from? Average in comparison to...? What is average?


Great question, and you're totally right. Average depends on what you compare to. 

Here are the CDC facts for average sizes of men and women in the US. 

FASTSTATS - Body Measurements



> *Measured average height, weight, and waist circumference for adults ages 20 years and over*
> 
> 
> 
> *Men:*
> Height (inches): 69.3
> Weight (pounds): 195.5
> Waist circumference (inches): 39.7
> *Women:*
> Height (inches): 63.8
> Weight (pounds): 166.2
> Waist circumference (inches): 37.5


----------



## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Cosmos said:


> :iagree:
> 
> It's rather like ads for tobacco. People brought up in a health conscious environment were less likely to be overly influenced by those sort of ads, but even banning the ads hasn't eradicated the consumption of tobacco by others... It's all about positive education and awareness.


You know, there was a lot of shaming of smokers that has gone on as well. I have no doubt that also played a part in turning smoking from acceptable to unacceptable.


----------



## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Deejo said:


> I'd say she got what she was looking for. Nothing adds hits to pages or attention to a subject like courting controversy.


Exactly! She was interested in self-promotion, and succeeded admirably. Look how many people are talking about her now.



Deejo said:


> Overwhelmingly that is exactly what people offer up, rather than taking responsibility and action for anything, be it body image, fitness, diet, self-awareness ... or any challenging lifestyle change.


Body image is about ever so much more than just weight or health. There are perfectly beautiful people out there with slim, fit bodies that are scrutinizing every pore and lump of cellulite, that monitor every morsel of food that goes into their mouth, that work out constantly seeking the perfection that they cannot achieve and feeling like failures because of that.

The idea that people with poor body image are just those who would rather eat a bag of potato chips and sit around blaming the media for feeling overweight is just a small piece of the puzzle. Many are doing the very best that they can with what they have -- and still believing that it's not enough, that it can never be enough. It's an extremely destructive cycle that can be very hard to break.


----------



## Davelli0331

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



always_alone said:


> Body image is about ever so much more than just weight or health. There are perfectly beautiful people out there with slim, fit bodies that are scrutinizing every pore and lump of cellulite, that monitor every morsel of food that goes into their mouth, that work out constantly seeking the perfection that they cannot achieve and feeling like failures because of that.
> 
> The idea that people with poor body image are just those who would rather eat a bag of potato chips and sit around blaming the media for feeling overweight is just a small piece of the puzzle. Many are doing the very best that they can with what they have -- and still believing that it's not enough, that it can never be enough. It's an extremely destructive cycle that can be very hard to break.


I agree with everything you've said here, and for those who do have severe eating and/or body image issues, I hope that they get help. Those are severe mental and emotional issues that extend far beyond food consumption.

However, I think it's overly reactionary to point to those folks as reasons to disparage or discard a healthy lifestyle by saying "See what our obsession with beauty has done to these people? Just accept yourself as you are!" and then add that to another list of reasons that people use to remain unhealthy.

Just as not everyone with body image issues is lazy or apathetic, not everyone who does try to live a healthy lifestyle suffers from an eating or body image disorder.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



norajane said:


> Great question, and you're totally right. Average depends on what you compare to.
> 
> Here are the CDC facts for average sizes of men and women in the US.
> 
> FASTSTATS - Body Measurements


And I find those 'average' numbers horrifying.

According to those stats, the 'average' man is overweight for his height, or the average man is a body-builder, carting around all muscle.

Hell, I'm 70", and 185 pounds and I know, I'm overweight. My ideal is about 175. 

And quite frankly, right, wrong, or otherwise, I find it disappointing that the average woman is just shy of 5 feet 4 inches and weighs 166 pounds.

Quite frankly, I think those averages suck.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

To be clear, I endorse being active and healthy.

Body image issues, chemical imbalances or illnesses aside, people would rather complain than take action. I'm comfortable making that generalization because I used to participate in it.

I realize that we are juggling a number of topics here ... pretty well I might add.


----------



## Cosmos

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



norajane said:


> You know, there was a lot of shaming of smokers that has gone on as well. I have no doubt that also played a part in turning smoking from acceptable to unacceptable.


This is true. Non-smokers were no longer prepared to have their personal space polluted by smokers and, because of the serious health issues associated with smoking, their voices were eventually heard.


----------



## Davelli0331

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Yeah, I see that same crap all over the fitness websites and blogs I follow. It's counterintuitive if not outright self defeating. Many times the people in those pictures have been playing sports and eating well all their lives, and while that's admirable, it's not necessarily the starting point that most of us are coming from.

What I enjoy reading about are the success stories of people who started from closer to the average (or worse) that norajane posted above and got themselves into shape. They may not look like Greek statues at the end of the day but they definitely look more realistically healthier.


----------



## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Davelli0331 said:


> Yeah, I see that same crap all over the fitness websites and blogs I follow. It's counterintuitive if not outright self defeating. Many times the people in those pictures have been playing sports and eating well all their lives, and while that's admirable, it's not necessarily the starting point that most of us are coming from.


And let's not forget the magic of photoshop for those fitspo pics as well. Even the most fit are photoshopped.



> What I enjoy reading about are the success stories of people who started from closer to the average (or worse) that norajane posted above and got themselves into shape. They may not look like Greek statues at the end of the day but they definitely look more realistically healthier.


:iagree:

It's far more inspiring to me to see or read about someone who has made great progress after having to squeeze their workouts and meal planning into a workday or a full day of housework and driving the kids around to ballet, than to see pictures of someone whose job it is to work out, like a fitness trainer or athlete or body builder.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Going back to the Dove ad about real women that Faithful Wife alluded to a few pages back, I wouldn't qualify those women as unhealthy or obese or unattractive ... do they have body image issues? I have no idea. I sure don't think they should. 

This one's for French Fry...
I don't think any of the women in these campaigns fit into the 'average' stats that NJ posted earlier. But without question they are all beautiful. Real, photoshopped or otherwise.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Even the "real" women ad is ridiculous though.Notice they have the thinnest female in the shot front and center facing forward.The rest of the ladies are side angle shots.They're all posed to make the most of their figure too.More bs photog tricks.Can't even have a real woman campaign without strategic posing of the real women.Not one of them is fully flat footed and facing forward to show their FULL figure.

It's ALL a bunch of crap.

sorry...hot button moment.


----------



## Davelli0331

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



ScarletBegonias said:


> Even the "real" women ad is ridiculous though.Notice they have the thinnest female in the shot front and center facing forward.The rest of the ladies are side angle shots.They're all posed to make the most of their figure too.More bs photog tricks.Can't even have a real woman campaign without strategic posing of the real women.Not one of them is fully flat footed and facing forward to show their FULL figure.
> 
> It's ALL a bunch of crap.
> 
> sorry...hot button moment.


Not only that, but there were reports that the photos from the original Dove campaign for real beauty were also photoshopped


----------



## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



ScarletBegonias said:


> Even the "real" women ad is ridiculous though.Notice they have the thinnest female in the shot front and center facing forward.The rest of the ladies are side angle shots.They're all posed to make the most of their figure too.More bs photog tricks.Can't even have a real woman campaign without strategic posing of the real women.Not one of them is fully flat footed and facing forward to show their FULL figure.
> 
> It's ALL a bunch of crap.
> 
> sorry...hot button moment.


:iagree:

I also noticed that two of the ladies are wearing tank tops to cover their larger middles, while almost all the flat stomach ladies are in two piece underwear. And that they are all in their 20's except for one. And every lump, bump or speck of cellulite has been photoshopped out so they all appear smooth, smooth, smooth - every leg and thigh in the pic is completely smooth.

I spend a lot of time at the beach in the summer, and no one looks like these 'real' women. 

Photoshop rules all!

Deejo, those two ladies I referenced with the tank tops are very likely in that average of 5'4", 166 lbs with 37 inch waists.


----------



## ocotillo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I'm not sure it's clear who is sending the 'message' and to whom they're sending it. (Unless maybe there are multiple messages here.)

I don't know a single straight male who thinks the, 'Teenage boy with a wig' look is attractive.

We can put this to the test though. In an advert for it's Blue Label Jeans line, Ralph Lauren digitally retouched model Flippa Hamilton to the point where her head was bigger than her hips: 











Is there any man on TAM who thinks this is attractive?

It was grotesque if you ask me


----------



## samyeagar

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



ocotillo said:


> I'm not sure it's clear who is sending the 'message' and to whom they're sending it. (Unless maybe there are multiple messages here.)
> 
> I don't know a single straight male who thinks the, 'Teenage boy with a wig' look is attractive.
> 
> We can put this to the test though. In an advert for it's Blue Label Jeans line, Ralph Lauren digitally retouched model Flippa Hamilton to the point where her head was bigger than her hips:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any man on TAM who thinks this is attractive?
> 
> *It was grotesque if you ask me*


So is it OK to call a woman grotesque if she is really thin, and only degrading, and self esteem ruining if she is fat?


----------



## TiggyBlue

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



samyeagar said:


> So is it OK to call a woman grotesque if she is really thin, and only degrading, and self esteem ruining if she is fat?


It's grotesque they retouch and airbrush to the point that the body isn't recognizable of the already slender model.


----------



## ocotillo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



samyeagar said:


> So is it OK to call a woman grotesque if she is really thin, and only degrading, and self esteem ruining if she is fat?


You understand the term, "digitally retouched" right? 

You understand that even really thin people do not have a skull larger than their stomach and pelvis? 

You understand that the picture above is nothing at all like what Ms. Hamilton (Or any woman) really looks like?


----------



## ScorchedEarth

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



ocotillo said:


> I'm not sure it's clear who is sending the 'message' and to whom they're sending it. (Unless maybe there are multiple messages here.)
> 
> I don't know a single straight male who thinks the, 'Teenage boy with a wig' look is attractive.
> 
> We can put this to the test though. In an advert for it's Blue Label Jeans line, Ralph Lauren digitally retouched model Flippa Hamilton to the point where her head was bigger than her hips:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any man on TAM who thinks this is attractive?
> 
> It was grotesque if you ask me


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



ocotillo said:


> You understand the term, "digitally retouched" right?
> 
> You understand that even really thin people do not have a skull larger than their pelvis?
> 
> You understand that the picture above is nothing at all like what Ms. Hamilton (Or any woman) really looks like?


There are women who look much like that. They are mostly anorexic, though. I remember a while back there was a trend of calling them lollipop heads. Also not helpful or positive!

'Lollipop Head' Starlets Start Fashion Trend | Fox News


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

If I were to break it down to what matters to me, it's simple. I'm all about attraction.
I don't expect that what I'm attracted to is the norm. Hell, I know it isn't.
I don't know if attraction is the goal of the media. Arguably it is certainly about eliciting a response. Make you think, make you act, make you buy.

I also think that it's pretty much disdain and ridicule at either end of the extreme when it comes to women. Morbidly obese women are no more attractive than a skeletal caricature of a woman is.

I'm only attracted to one woman in that Dove ad I posted. Spotted her immediately and she jumps right out at me. And she is true to the same kind of woman I've been attracted to all of my life. The other women are beautiful, but only one of them grinds my gears.


----------



## Davelli0331

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I have to wonder how much the fashion industry influences the trend toward anorexic skinny photography. I can't think that many men find that image or any like them, digitally altered or not, attractive. I wonder how much of that look is encouraged by designers who demand rail thin models for showcasing their clothes, with no real connection as to whether or not society at large finds it attractive.


----------



## samyeagar

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



ocotillo said:


> You understand the term, "digitally retouched" right?
> 
> You understand that even really thin people do not have a skull larger than their stomach and pelvis?
> 
> You understand that the picture above is nothing at all like what Ms. Hamilton (Or any woman) really looks like?


So it's the photoshopping, the retouching that is grotesque, and not the way the woman looks then?

I suppose it could be considered grotesque, but there are smartphone apps out there to make just those kinds of distortions to pictures. Are those apps and what they do also grotesque?

Yes, I know I am being contrary here, but there is a very thinly veiled double standard running through this thread...


----------



## ReformedHubby

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

When I think of who is responsible the only answer I can come up with is all of us. The song Everybody Hurts by REM comes to mind. I think we've all been told more than once by people close to us, and sometimes complete strangers that our appearance is inadequate for one reason another (clothes, weight, complexion etc.). 

Hearing that you are attractive from your spouse may not resonate. Its kind of like being told you're perfectly fine by your grandma or something. So I do understand why compliments and reassurance from a spouse can't make body image issues go away.


----------



## samyeagar

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



ReformedHubby said:


> When I think of who is responsible the only answer I can come up with is all of us. The song Everybody Hurts by REM comes to mind. I think we've all been told more than once by people close to us, and sometimes complete strangers that our appearance is inadequate for one reason another (clothes, weight, complexion etc.).
> 
> *Hearing that you are attractive from your spouse may not resonate.* Its kind of like being told you're perfectly fine by your grandma or something. So I do understand why compliments and reassurance from a spouse can't make body image issues go away.


And for me, it does resonate. Very much so. A stranger compliments me, lets me know I'm attractive, ten seconds later, I've forgotten. My STBW tells me I'm sexy, I've got a big grin on my face all day long...


----------



## ocotillo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



norajane said:


> There are women who look much like that. They are mostly anorexic, though. I remember a while back there was a trend of calling them lollipop heads. Also not helpful or positive!
> 
> 'Lollipop Head' Starlets Start Fashion Trend | Fox News


Sorry to be disagreeing all the time, Norajane, but I don't think the 'lollipop head' look like actress Claire Coffee from the television series, _Grim _or Lindsay Lohan, the Olsen twins, etc. is quite the same thing. None of those women have abnormal skeletal proportions, which is what I'm talking about.

Maybe there is a basic difference in how men and women assess body proportions?


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



samyeagar said:


> Yes, I know I am being contrary here, but there is a very thinly veiled double standard running through this thread...


Oh, I don't think it's veiled at all. I posted under the premise of believing it's a double standard.

And I'm not sure that we can collectively do anything to get around it. I do honestly admire both sides for trying.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



samyeagar said:


> And for me, it does resonate. Very much so. A stranger compliments me, lets me know I'm attractive, ten seconds later, I've forgotten. My STBW tells me I'm sexy, I've got a big grin on my face all day long...


Flip that script and one is left with a very different feeling, no?


----------



## samyeagar

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Deejo said:


> Flip that script and one is left with a very different feeling, no?


Yep...one is in the script for a happy marriage...the other is an ingredient in the recipe for an affair...


----------



## ocotillo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



samyeagar said:


> So it's the photoshopping, the retouching that is grotesque, and not the way the woman looks then?


Yes. I was talking about the caricature that Ralph Lauren had to publicly apologize for. 

Filippa Hamilton is thin, but normally proportioned:










I am actually a little taken aback that this even needs to be explained.





samyeagar said:


> I suppose it could be considered grotesque, but there are smartphone apps out there to make just those kinds of distortions to pictures. Are those apps and what they do also grotesque?


I would say it depends on the degree and type of distortion. One of the most famous photographs of the late George Silk was of his children. He had them dress in Halloween costumes and distorted their bodies into goblin shapes with a timed exposure. Frankly, it is a little creepy.


----------



## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



ocotillo said:


> Sorry to be disagreeing all the time, Norajane, but I don't think the 'lollipop head' look like actress Claire Coffee from the television series, _Grim _or Lindsay Lohan, the Olsen twins, etc. is quite the same thing. None of those women have abnormal skeletal proportions, which is what I'm talking about.
> 
> Maybe there is a basic difference in how men and women assess body proportions?


We aren't really disagreeing. What the jeans people did to that model is a grossly exaggerated version of the lollipop stars (who really were mostly anorexic) whom a lot of young girls looked up to.

That model, in some ways, reminds me of Barbie dolls and her out of proportion waist, hips and legs, as compared to her boobs. Although Barbie's head was tiny - she just had big hair. Oh, but her eyes were bigger than should be for the size of her head, lol.


----------



## ocotillo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



norajane said:


> We aren't really disagreeing. What the jeans people did to that model is a grossly exaggerated version of the lollipop stars (who really were mostly anorexic) whom a lot of young girls looked up to.
> 
> That model, in some ways, reminds me of Barbie dolls and her out of proportion waist, hips and legs, as compared to her boobs. Although Barbie's head was tiny - she just had big hair. Oh, but her eyes were bigger than should be for the size of her head, lol.


Okay, I understand now. And you're right


----------



## Faithful Wife

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I wish more men who are into real (and bigger) women would speak out more, because I know they are everywhere. They just aren't as outspoken as the young dudes who have cornered their own attraction down into a tiny sliver of the population of women.

There are lots of men who really prefer some fat on a woman...actually prefer it, not just "deal with it".

My Japanese gf just got together with a black guy, and he has been telling her she is "too skinny", which is strange to her because she has a little bit of belly fat (and most guys she has been with haven't been that into it). This guy is telling her "you could double or triple that roll as far as I'm concerned"...and I know he means it.

Some men do NOT want to see rock hard abs, because it looks masculine to them.

They want a nice, soft belly that sways...which is seductive, like a belly dancer or hula dancer.

Speaking of...I saw this beautiful woman in person once. She is quite large and her dancing is totally hypnotic. The same night, a lot of other girls danced, all of them were great...except the one who had rock hard abs. She looked totally out of place amongst the Real Women and her dancing was not interesting in the least.

Claudia Belly Dance - SARC Benefit - Portland Oregon - YouTube


----------



## hawkeye

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Faithful Wife said:


> I wish more men who are into real (and bigger) women would speak out more, because I know they are everywhere. They just aren't as outspoken as the young dudes who have cornered their own attraction down into a tiny sliver of the population of women.
> 
> There are lots of men who really prefer some fat on a woman...actually prefer it, not just "deal with it".


Two things...

1) enough with the "real women" BS. Like I said earlier in this thread, you're doing the same kind of shaming, only in reverse. There is nothing less "real" about a thin woman than there is about a thicker woman. 

2) "Some fat" is pretty vague. Yes, there are chubby chasers. Yes, there are guys who like women with big butts. But "some fat" doesn't mean obese. I don't think there are really that many guys who prefer rolls of fat over a toned body.


----------



## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



hawkeye said:


> 2) "Some fat" is pretty vague. Yes, there are chubby chasers. Yes, there are guys who like women with big butts. But "some fat" doesn't mean obese. I don't think there are really that many guys who prefer rolls of fat over a toned body.


The vast amount of BBW porn would seem to offer a different perspective than yours.


----------



## Faithful Wife

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Um excuse me, hawkeye?

Were you under the impression that I (or anyone) had to speak in some different words or language just because YOU said so earlier in this thread?

Get real.


----------



## hawkeye

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



norajane said:


> The vast amount of BBW porn would seem to offer a different perspective than yours.


like i said, there are chubby chasers. I get it. There are also guys into amputees, but that doesn't mean chopping your leg off is a good idea.


----------



## hawkeye

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Faithful Wife said:


> Um excuse me, hawkeye?
> 
> Were you under the impression that I (or anyone) had to speak in some different words or language just because YOU said so earlier in this thread?
> 
> Get real.


I'm not fat enough to be real.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



norajane said:


> The vast amount of BBW porn would seem to offer a different perspective than yours.


Don't know if that is an accurate analogy. Isn't that kind of like me saying that most of the guys consuming that kind of porn, or any other for that matter are only doing so because they can't go out and get laid like 'real men'?


----------



## Faithful Wife

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I don't know what you mean by that Deejo. I've known several men who love BBW porn who are also having sex with BBW women and dating them, married to them, etc.


----------



## Created2Write

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



ScarletBegonias said:


> When I saw that "what's your excuse" lady my knee jerk response was "and who the f**k are you,missperfect?" Then I looked at the picture and her babies again and asked myself "what IS my excuse??" I don't have 3 babies,I have great hours,and loads of free time at my disposal.
> 
> I think my initial reaction was a defense mechanism mixed with serious jealousy.She has a bangin body and I don't.Instead of hating her or feeling threatened by her I'm making a conscious choice to learn from her bc while I don't need a body like hers I would like to get some tips on time management and motivation from her.
> 
> I guess it's all about how you view the message.I think it's a great message if you can get over the no nonsense,no coddling approach.


I was trying to figure out how to word this, and saw this post. Brilliantly said, Scarlet! I agree.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Faithful Wife said:


> I don't know what you mean by that Deejo. I've known several men who love BBW porn who are also having sex with BBW women and dating them, married to them, etc.


I just don't understand the comparison ... basically saying there isn't one.

I don't have an issue with men who are attracted to large women. I know and love many large women. Don't feel compelled to criticize them, or the people who love them.

You commented about an overall attraction to a very thin sliver of the population as dictated by young men. I really don't agree with that premise either. Marketing is going to pay attention to what young men or women respond to positively in order to move product. They aren't deciding what is attractive, they are being manipulated by what others are conveying as attractive.

I'd simply state that the case is likely true for both body type extremes. There is a segment of the population that is attracted to gaunt, and there is a segment of the population attracted to corpulent.

Most of us will fall in love with and be wildly attracted to someone that falls in between those two poles.


----------



## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Deejo said:


> Don't know if that is an accurate analogy. Isn't that kind of like me saying that most of the guys consuming that kind of porn, or any other for that matter are only doing so because they can't go out and get laid like 'real men'?


I'm not sure I follow. He said men aren't into obese women with rolls, with the exception of a few "chubby chasers". But there is a lot of BBW porn out there, so I'm saying there must be plenty of men who are attracted to large women or they wouldn't be using that kind of porn to turn themselves on while masturbating.


----------



## Created2Write

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Davelli0331 said:


> I agree with everything you've said here, and for those who do have severe eating and/or body image issues, I hope that they get help. Those are severe mental and emotional issues that extend far beyond food consumption.
> 
> However, I think it's overly reactionary to point to those folks as reasons to disparage or discard a healthy lifestyle by saying "See what our obsession with beauty has done to these people? Just accept yourself as you are!" and then add that to another list of reasons that people use to remain unhealthy.
> 
> Just as not everyone with body image issues is lazy or apathetic, not everyone who does try to live a healthy lifestyle suffers from an eating or body image disorder.


I agree with this, as well. I've never been obese, but I have struggled for years and years with horrible eating habits and lifestyle. I decided enough was enough, I wanted to be healthy, so I started exercising and changing my diet to nip the issue in the bud before I _was_ overweight. 

I was then shamed and gult-tripped and, essentially, blamed by my former pastor and his wife for fueling eating disorders; because I wasn't obese, I had no business promoting weight loss. I was so confused. I went from feeling great about my body, and finally getting over my body image issues, to gaining all of the weight back(and then some), and being nothing but depressed during and after workouts. 

I've spent the last two years trying to work through the emotional pain that come from that experience.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



norajane said:


> I'm not sure I follow. He said men aren't into obese women with rolls, with the exception of a few "chubby chasers". But there is a lot of BBW porn out there, so I'm saying there must be plenty of men who are attracted to large women or they wouldn't be using that kind of porn to turn themselves on while masturbating.


There indeed may be plenty of men. That is still no reflection on most men.

Basically my response is that it's a non-argument.

Yes it's true that there are men that become aroused by large women.

And 

Yes it's true that most men do not find obesity attractive.

I smell a derail ...  

Lets keep porn out of the equation if we can?


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Created2Write said:


> I agree with this, as well. I've never been obese, but I have struggled for years and years with horrible eating habits and lifestyle. I decided enough was enough, I wanted to be healthy, so I started exercising and changing my diet to nip the issue in the bud before I _was_ overweight.
> 
> I was then shamed and gult-tripped and, essentially, blamed by my former pastor and his wife for fueling eating disorders; because I wasn't obese, I had no business promoting weight loss. I was so confused. I went from feeling great about my body, and finally getting over my body image issues, to gaining all of the weight back(and then some), and being nothing but depressed during and after workouts.
> 
> I've spent the last two years trying to work through the emotional pain that come from that experience.



And that's the flip-side of the double standard right there ...

thanks for sharing that C2W.

Hell we even see this dynamic in relationships where one individual embraces a fit, healthy lifestyle, and the other partner utterly and completely rejects it. They effectively choose sides.
I know of very few relationships where it doesn't completely throw the dynamic out of balance if one partner effectively becomes far more 'attractive' (lean, muscular, shapely, confident etc.)

Shaming and denial is a common tactic on both sides.


----------



## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Deejo said:


> There indeed may be plenty of men. That is still no reflection on most men.
> 
> Basically my response is that it's a non-argument.
> 
> Yes it's true that there are men that become aroused by large women.
> 
> And
> 
> Yes it's true that most men do not find obesity attractive.
> 
> I smell a derail ...
> 
> Lets keep porn out of the equation if we can?


If you're asking "who is responsible" for the body images out there, I don't see how you can leave porn out of it. With the easy access available these days, a lot of boys and girls are getting their impressions of what is hot and sexy from porn, just like with other media.

Also, it does reflect what is a turn-on and attractive to people, or they wouldn't be watching it.


----------



## Created2Write

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Deejo said:


> And that's the flip-side of the double standard right there ...
> 
> thanks for sharing that C2W.
> 
> Hell we even see this dynamic in relationships where one individual embraces a fit, healthy lifestyle, and the other partner utterly and completely rejects it. They effectively choose sides.
> I know of very few relationships where it doesn't completely throw the dynamic out of balance if one partner effectively becomes far more 'attractive' (lean, muscular, shapely, confident etc.)
> 
> Shaming and denial is a common tactic on both sides.


Exactly. No one should be shamed for their personal lifestyle choices. It's their life. I value health and fitness, and I'll be honest...my goal is to be toned, thin and athletic. But I don't think men or women who don't want that for themselves are less or more "real" than anyone else.


----------



## Created2Write

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



FrenchFry said:


> This isn't to discount the pain people get from getting in shape and people being buttholes about it. I know it, I used to get grief from my family when I was dancing and growing at the same time and would be lanky looking at times.
> 
> But in comedy, it's the theory of "punching up," why it's funny to make fun of thin people and not fat people: because thinness is the predominant status symbol. It's why it takes an incredible amount of finesse for a white comedian to make fun of black people without sounding racist, why gay comics feel comfortable with making fun of straight people, why rich people making fun of poor people seems super mean spirited.
> 
> *People feel way more free to say things to thin people because in the larger realm, it doesn't matter, thin people still have the power of being thin and more accepted.* It's why people feel super free to crap on No Excuses mom because overall, she gets what she wants (attention) and retains her power.


I don't disagree, but I can tell you, just because someone is thin doesn't mean they don't, also, have image issues. I had almost gotten through mine when I was shamed for making the healthy choices I did, and I can tell you, I did _not_ feel "powerful". I felt like a piece of sh!t. I felt utterly guilty thinking that my choice to be healthy would make someone else feel bad about themselves, which only made me feel bad about myself. Three years later, and I'm _still_ trying to get through it. 

I really don't care if it's seen as more acceptable, no one deserves to be made fun of.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



FrenchFry said:


> Going back to your OP, where are the standards coming from? The people who are the money-holders are the status makers...which is overwhelmingly male. Women are the enforcers, not the rule makers.


Hot neon colored sneakers. 

They are hip. They are in. Everybody wants them. Kids to running enthusiasts. That seems to be the message.

Except I think they are absolutely stupid looking.

Bell bottom jeans ... cool ... stonewashed jeans ... not cool.

Best/Worst Dressed Lists.

Do you really believe that the males running these companies truly steer the direction of what the masses want? Whether it's in a partner or body lotion?

I think they pay attention to who is spending money. 

On the image front, I'm really not sure who is shaping the cultural dynamic. Or maybe I should say I just don't understand it.
At some point on the scale there is what virtually all of us can agree is a beautiful person. That may mean they are model material, or something very different.

I don't fundamentally understand the concept of celebrity. So I may not be the best judge on these matters.

I do find it unfortunate that given today's world-wide and instant audience, that people feel even more compelled to spread their negative opinions about how someone else looks, or should look. What they do, or shouldn't do. 

This whole exercise was pitched under the positive and benevolent prospect of 'sharing'.

Did flat tummy mummy expect her photo to go viral? Probably not. I'm presuming she expected that friends and family would comment on it. But she put it out there ... on the web, thus opening the door for anyone on the web to chime in ... and they did. Lauded by some reviled by others.

I guess that is what I find interesting. For those that feel what this woman did was controversial and harmful, I want to understand WHY they think this woman's shot has the power to influence the unwashed hordes into believing that pregancy means looking like a Victoria Secret Lingerie model 72 hours after giving birth. Because I don't think that's what people think. And I think I'm right. Just like I'm sure the folks thinking she is harming women and moms-to-be think they are right.

I just think that I'm more right than them ... which is nice.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



norajane said:


> If you're asking "who is responsible" for the body images out there, I don't see how you can leave porn out of it. With the easy access available these days, a lot of boys and girls are getting their impressions of what is hot and sexy from porn, just like with other media.
> 
> Also, it does reflect what is a turn-on and attractive to people, or they wouldn't be watching it.


Nope. I agree with you. Porn is part of it. I'd just prefer if we can refrain from making porn the focus. Not saying it's not valid. Just saying that making porn responsible, completely changes the tenor of the discussion.

The images of those women in the initial link are not pornographic. Are they meant to elicit desire or sexuality? Or shame and guilt? Maybe. Guess that's why I asked.


----------



## Faithful Wife

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Deejo said: "The images of those women in the initial link are not pornographic."

I would argue that they are.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Faithful Wife said:


> Deejo said: "The images of those women in the initial link are not pornographic."
> 
> I would argue that they are.


Of course you would.


----------



## Faithful Wife

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Well let's see...."look at me, how hot I am, how thin I am, how nearly naked I am, how cute my bra is...and you don't even know me, do you? But you want to see me nearly naked, here you go!"

Is that not the same as any other consensual soft porn pic by any other girl?

You really think she doesn't want people to think she's sexy and hot? She's not trying to entice and titilate?

Sorry...I know the thread isn't about porn.


----------



## greenfern

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I don't blame men for my body image issues. I find men generally less critical than we are ourselves. I also never find friends critical (of looks at least), I am definitely my own worst enemy as far as finding fault with my appearance.

I do *hate* pictures like that first one, the woman 4 days after birth and the 'whats your excuse' mom. They trigger me like crazy. I have always been considered very pretty, but never in the stratosphere of these two women. My excuse? I am just not that beautiful. I don't have cascading hair, perfect skin, long legs, flawless features. No amount of working out will change that.


----------



## greenfern

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Deejo said:


> I do find it unfortunate that given today's world-wide and instant audience, that people feel even more compelled to spread their negative opinions about how someone else looks, or should look. What they do, or shouldn't do.


:iagree:


Deejo said:


> I guess that is what I find interesting. For those that feel what this woman did was controversial and harmful, I want to understand WHY they think this woman's shot has the power to influence the unwashed hordes into believing that pregancy means looking like a Victoria Secret Lingerie model 72 hours after giving birth. Because I don't think that's what people think. And I think I'm right. Just like I'm sure the folks thinking she is harming women and moms-to-be think they are right.


This picture reminded me of why I quit facebook. Its not the picture so much as the caption, "I feel so empty…4 days after birth". Why not just make the caption what she is really saying is "isn't it incredible my body is so hot 4 days after giving birth, I just had to share with the twitter world because I am so proud of it". 



Deejo said:


> I just think that I'm more right than them ... which is nice.


----------



## ReformedHubby

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Faithful Wife said:


> I wish more men who are into real (and bigger) women would speak out more, because I know they are everywhere. They just aren't as outspoken as the young dudes who have cornered their own attraction down into a tiny sliver of the population of women.
> 
> There are lots of men who really prefer some fat on a woman...actually prefer it, not just "deal with it".
> 
> My Japanese gf just got together with a black guy, and he has been telling her she is "too skinny", which is strange to her because she has a little bit of belly fat (and most guys she has been with haven't been that into it). This guy is telling her "you could double or triple that roll as far as I'm concerned"...and I know he means it.


In all honesty black men for the most part have always appreciated voluptuous women. We genuinely prefer curvy. As an example when I was younger my white friends thought Jennifer Love Hewitt was the best thing ever. Literally none of the brothers I knew including myself understood it. We saw her as an average skinny brown haired girl. Ironically now that she is voluptuous and has some nice hips we get it. On the flip side the guys that used to think she was gorgeous probably think she is fat these days. Apparently she has a lot of critics because of the changes to her body.


----------



## Faithful Wife

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

RH said: "In all honesty black men for the most part have always appreciated voluptuous women."

I know.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



FrenchFry said:


> Devil Wears Prada, fantastic movie.
> 
> 
> 14 of the top 50 designers are women, most top fashion houses are owned and ran by men. These are absolutely the people who are deciding what we wear as it trickles down through the layers of commercialization. If you look through a site like tomandlorenzo.com, you can pinpoint when certain trends started through which designers. These people are geniuses and create art, but they are the reason see-through shirts are acceptable and why neon made a comeback...and these people are overwhelmingly male. Point being is that we, the masses, are not the ones choosing what we think is hot. We are not the taste makers and we are totally deluding ourselves if we think we are and this extends beyond fashion to beauty as well.


Now I just feel dirty. I'm still not buying neon yellow sneakers though ...


----------



## loopy lu

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

hmm, i read something about this recently...about fat shaming women who have had children. Reflects poorly on the shamer, I think. Its really a vicious cycle mostly perpetuated by media. 

Look at the recent fat shaming of pregnant Kim Kardashian...brutal, ruthless. Then she is under pressure to find her pre baby body before the papps nick a photo. So she gets a personal trainer, a dietitian, maybe some reconstructive/plastic surgery and whammo - brand new body. Awesome. Realistic? No. Fricken. Way. And then these new bodies are paraded around as if its the norm, building unrealistic expectations of normal women - who dont have trainers and plastic surgeons on call. 

Like Maria Kang recently. She had an opportunity to be positive about how she looks after 3 babies in 3 years. Did she do that? No. She shamed everyone. 'What's your excuse'? Umm I dunno. I work a full time job, just finished 2 degrees as well, have 3 kids, a household a 1 hour commute each way and my husband cant cook a meal to save himself...what's your excuse for being a nasty b!tch?










Some consequences of pregnancy are genetic. Its got nothing to do with how well you look after yourself. Stretch marks, varicose veins, broken capillaries, scarring, boobs dropping....whatever. My bodies freaking awesome. Its grown, nurtured and fed 3 human beings so I dont give a crap if it lives up to someone else's ideals. I have my battle scars and I wear em like tiger stripes. I earnt them.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



ReformedHubby said:


> In all honesty black men for the most part have always appreciated voluptuous women. We genuinely prefer curvy.


Quoted For Truth.

In fact , it's not just Black men, its most men_ South Of The Border_in the Caribbean, Mesoamerica and South America.

Anecdotal evidence of that can be seen in the fashion and apparel manufacturing industry . In the production end [ China , India etc ] ,patterns that are cut for African and South American women are drafted and sized differently to European and Asian women. [ in bulk manufacturing.]

They are often referred to as a " _Brazilian cut_ ", meaning the butt / hip to waist ratio is bigger to what normally applies. 
Although it can be argued that there is no correlation between production and the body type these men prefer, fact is the industry caters to women's apparel , and functionality of the apparel is not the only factor in production, but trending style.
Hence the " _Brazilian Cut_."

I agree with your point, I also think it has to do with cultural relativity and biases. But traditionally the fashion industry has been Eurocentric , and a huge chunk of advertising revenues from the industry finances the media.
Hence the " skinny model" stereotype.

With respect to what the media portrays, it all comes down to what sells.


----------



## Davelli0331

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



loopy lu said:


> hmm, i read something about this recently...about fat shaming women who have had children. Reflects poorly on the shamer, I think. Its really a vicious cycle mostly perpetuated by media.
> 
> Look at the recent fat shaming of pregnant Kim Kardashian...brutal, ruthless. Then she is under pressure to find her pre baby body before the papps nick a photo. So she gets a personal trainer, a dietitian, maybe some reconstructive/plastic surgery and whammo - brand new body. Awesome. Realistic? No. Fricken. Way. And then these new bodies are paraded around as if its the norm, building unrealistic expectations of normal women - who dont have trainers and plastic surgeons on call.


I agree with this



loopy lu said:


> Like Maria Kang recently. She had an opportunity to be positive about how she looks after 3 babies in 3 years. Did she do that? No. She shamed everyone. 'What's your excuse'? Umm I dunno. I work a full time job, just finished 2 degrees as well, have 3 kids, a household a 1 hour commute each way and my husband cant cook a meal to save himself...what's your excuse for being a nasty b!tch?


This is where I think most people are going off the rails a bit. Granted, Kang could have worded that a little better, she's said herself that her purpose was not to shame but to instead to get people to examine their reasons for being unhealthy and decide if they really are valid reasons or just excuses.

Instead, many people like you took it as a commentary on your lifestyle and reacted accordingly. I can certainly see how the in-your-face wording of the whole thing could feel like a personal insult, but she's said herself that's not at all how she meant it.



loopy lu said:


> Some consequences of pregnancy are genetic. Its got nothing to do with how well you look after yourself. Stretch marks, varicose veins, broken capillaries, scarring, boobs dropping....whatever. My bodies freaking awesome. Its grown, nurtured and fed 3 human beings so I dont give a crap if it lives up to someone else's ideals. I have my battle scars and I wear em like tiger stripes. I earnt them.


This is a prime example of what I've been talking about this entire thread. You're implicitly shaming Kang for her presumably good genetics and ample free time. I think this is the double standard that some others have mentioned in this thread, Ie My lifestyle is fine but yours isn't because I think you have better genes and more free time than me. The real irony here is that Kang's body has also grown, nurtured, and fed 3 human beings.

To be completely frank, I think that discounting those with real body image issues, the majority of people who take such great offence at people like Kang do so because on some level they don't like being confronted with the idea that they are far more in charge of their own physical well-being than they care to admit.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



loopy lu said:


> hmm, i read something about this recently...about fat shaming women who have had children. Reflects poorly on the shamer, I think. Its really a vicious cycle mostly perpetuated by media.
> 
> Look at the recent fat shaming of pregnant Kim Kardashian...brutal, ruthless. Then she is under pressure to find her pre baby body before the papps nick a photo. So she gets a personal trainer, a dietitian, maybe some reconstructive/plastic surgery and whammo - brand new body. Awesome. Realistic? No. Fricken. Way. And then these new bodies are paraded around as if its the norm, building unrealistic expectations of normal women - who dont have trainers and plastic surgeons on call.
> 
> Like Maria Kang recently. She had an opportunity to be positive about how she looks after 3 babies in 3 years. Did she do that? No. She shamed everyone. 'What's your excuse'? Umm I dunno. I work a full time job, just finished 2 degrees as well, have 3 kids, a household a 1 hour commute each way and my husband cant cook a meal to save himself...what's your excuse for being a nasty b!tch?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some consequences of pregnancy are genetic. Its got nothing to do with how well you look after yourself. Stretch marks, varicose veins, broken capillaries, scarring, boobs dropping....whatever. My bodies freaking awesome. Its grown, nurtured and fed 3 human beings so I dont give a crap if it lives up to someone else's ideals. I have my battle scars and I wear em like tiger stripes. I earnt them.


Your post sounds a bit like , Orweillan logic, at least to me.
You're doing the exact thing you're accusing Ms. Kang of doing..

As a matter of fact, I don't even think Ms. Kang was ever referring to you personally, especially since you are comfortable with _your_ post partum body. However, there are millions of others who are not and are willing to do something about it

My guess is that her message was geared towards them.
People choose and have their own priorities.


----------



## TiggyBlue

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I wonder if there would have been such a backlash if it wasn't for the 'what's your excuse' slogan?


----------



## soulpotato

heartsbeating said:


> I think that's the ticket... and I'm not saying it's easy when we've perhaps been conditioned, however once we have clarity, seeing what we've been sold and bought into, playing on insecurities and ego, well, it's then that we have the choice to free ourselves of that. And accept ourselves for who we are. Acceptance doesn't mean complacency. It doesn't mean we can't work towards being fitter, eating healthier, a desired shape, while still accepting ourselves - this is the package I have to work with. When there's an awareness, there's options for alternative thoughts and actions. Rather than exhausting, I think it could be completely liberating.


Except in my experience, it doesn't matter how health-conscious, fit, or thin you are if your body type isn't "in". So that's part of what I find exhausting. There's a lot of intolerance of variety in our society, actually, both in terms of body type and facial features. Even being a reasonably attractive person, I've been told I "look weird" and criticized for a variety of perceived genetic "sins". (Not to mention the sin of not carrying a bag of cosmetics and such, and failing to allow such things to define me or determine my value.) I cannot imagine what living in this society is like for people who don't meet any or enough of the "criteria". 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jellybeans

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



TiggyBlue said:


> I wonder if there would have been such a backlash if it wasn't for the 'what's your excuse' slogan?


Agreed. It does come across as offside a bit.

Those little boys in that pic are adorable!


----------



## Caribbean Man

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



TiggyBlue said:


> I wonder if there would have been such a backlash if it wasn't for the 'what's your excuse' slogan?


In the fitness world , that's how the message is telegraphed.
Direct and to the point, .No tip toeing around fragile egos.

In my gym , there's are all different types of fancy exercise equipment. But generally ,most people who work out, hate to do squats , including myself.

In front of the squat rack, there's a huge poster with a girl in shorts, leg apart, squatting low with some heavy weights on her back and a slogan that reads:

" SHUT THE FCUK UP AND SQUAT.."

Is it effective?
The management of the gym just added a couple other squat racks and barbells .

There is also a reason Ms Kang is fully dressed in fitness attire.
That's for marketing purposes.


----------



## TiggyBlue

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Caribbean Man said:


> In the fitness world , that's how the message is telegraphed.
> Direct and to the point, .No tip toeing around fragile egos.
> 
> In my gym , there's are all different types of fancy exercise equipment. But generally ,most people who work out, hate to do squats , including myself.
> 
> In front of the squat rack, there's a huge poster with a girl in shorts squatting some heavy weights and a slogan thet reads:
> 
> " SHUT THE FCUK UP AND SQUAT.."
> 
> Is it effective?
> The management of the gym just added a couple other squat racks and barbells .
> 
> There is also a reason Ms Kang is fully dressed in fitness attire.
> That's for advertising purposes.


But a lot of the problems women suffer with pregnancy is skin (stretch marks/loose skin ect), that is where I can possibly see where it be perceived as shaming (even though I really doubt she meant it that way at all).


----------



## Caribbean Man

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



TiggyBlue said:


> But a lot of the problems women suffer with pregnancy is skin (stretch marks/loose skin ect), that is where I can possibly see where it be perceived as shaming (even though I really doubt she meant it that way at all).


And I fully agree with you!
A person's perception is often their reality.
But the advertisers have an idea to sell. They know their target audience and understand the _psychology_ of their target audience.
That's why they chose Ms Kang.
I don't think she's doing it _pro bono_.


----------



## Davelli0331

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



TiggyBlue said:


> But a lot of the problems women suffer with pregnancy is skin (stretch marks/loose skin ect), that is where I can possibly see where it be perceived as shaming (even though I really doubt she meant it that way at all).


I think you're right in that it's a perception and one that is very likely not at all intended. I would think any rational mother would know that pregnancy does things to the female body that no amount of working out can change. Men use many similar reasons, though obviously not pregnancy but usually some mix of genetics and lack of free time.

However, it's one thing to accept that pregnancy has left you with stretch marks and quite another to use that as some sort of ammunition to shame a woman who either did not get them or who chose to stay active and fit in spite of them. I think you and probably most people get that, but there's a very vocal group that does not.


----------



## Rowan

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Davelli0331 said:


> To be completely frank, I think that discounting those with real body image issues, the majority of people who take such great offence at people like Kang do so because on some level they don't like being confronted with the idea that they are far more in charge of their own physical well-being than they care to admit.


Nah, I'm offended because the message she's promoting is that a mother of three _should_ or _ought to _look like that, and if she doesn't then there's something wrong with her. She's lazy or just making excuses. 

What's my excuse? Why should I need an excuse? Why is it that if my body doesn't look like that, I must therefore be some lazy slob who's "making excuses" to be "fat"? Why should anyone think I need an "excuse" to look like a perfectly normal, healthy, 30-something mother rather than like a fitness model? 

My problem with Ms. Kang is that her general tone often conveys snobby and b!tchy rather than empowered. She comes off like my ancient - and snobby and b!tchy - great aunt who once remarked that she really hoped I would never try to wear heels, since I was already far too tall to ever be attractive.  People who say catty things to others sound catty, not empowering. If some people find that type of speech motivating, great. To me it just sounds catty, ill mannered, and like her Mama didn't raise her right. 

As CM says, though, you see a lot of this in fitness circles. I suspect that this type of taunting is a more effective motivator for men on average than it is for most women. Guys tend to take teasing, taunting, and open challenges much more as a motivator to do better so as to prove the challenger wrong. On average women are more likely to be offended by those things, internalize the comments, and let them effect their self esteem. Not all men and not all women will react along those lines, but I think there may be a fairly common gender difference at play in the perceptions of, and reactions to, Ms. Kang's posts.


----------



## Davelli0331

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Rowan said:


> Nah, I'm offended because the message she's promoting is that a mother of three _should_ or _ought to _look like that, and if she doesn't then there's something wrong with her. She's lazy or just making excuses.
> 
> What's my excuse? Why should I need an excuse? Why is it that if my body doesn't look like that, I must therefore be some lazy slob who's "making excuses" to be "fat"? Why should anyone think I need an "excuse" to look like a perfectly normal, healthy, 30-something mother rather than like a fitness model?
> 
> My problem with Ms. Kang is that her general tone often conveys snobby and b!tchy rather than empowered. She comes off like my ancient - and snobby and b!tchy - great aunt who once remarked that she really hoped I would never try to wear heels, since I was already far too tall to ever be attractive.  People who say catty things to others sound catty, not empowering. If some people find that type of speech motivating, great. To me it just sounds catty, ill mannered, and like her Mama didn't raise her right.
> 
> As CM says, though, you see a lot of this in fitness circles. I suspect that this type of taunting is a more effective motivator for men on average than it is for most women. Guys tend to take teasing, taunting, and open challenges much more as a motivator to do better so as to prove the challenger wrong. Women tend to be offended by those things, internalize the comments, and let them effect their self esteem. I think there may be a fairly common gender difference in the perceptions of, and reactions to, Ms. Kang's posts.


Here again I think the message Kang was trying to convey is lost in both the confrontational tone and suggestive imagery of the photo.

I don't think that Kang expects for every mother out there to aspire to her body, or that her body is the ideal of perfection, or that if you don't look like her you're wrong. I think the message she was trying to convey, albeit poorly, is one of trying to be healthy.

Even if that's not her message, it certainly is mine. I don't care about someone's genetics, or if they're fat, skinny, tall, short, a parent, or not. All I care about is that people try to live healthily. That can mean whatever you want it to mean: Not eating out all the time, going for a walk instead of sitting in front of the TV, etc. It doesn't mean that you should be doing everything in your power to look like someone else's ideal.


----------



## Married but Happy

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

What's my excuse? I'm lazy. There have been times when I had other priorities, or just didn't have time to set aside. Are those excuses? Yes. I could have worked in some exercise no matter what else I was doing, or at the very least have cut out some calories. But, I was lazy, and really wanted that donut.

Fortunately, I never got really overweight, but I didn't like that I was. Getting rid of bad habits is incredibly hard, and it's as hard or harder to substitute good habits. My wife and I are working on it, and have been (on and off) for several years. We've had interruptions due to a serious injury and cancer, but keep returning to our efforts. We try to do significant exercise 5x a week, and are motivating each other to keep at it with the hope of forming a good habit. We're also slowly adjusting our diet and it helps - we cut out most products that use wheat, and are eating more fruits and vegetables. The challenge is making them as - or nearly as - palatable as less healthy food. We are making progress.


----------



## soulpotato

What makes anyone think women haven't done their best to "do something about it" or that it's not a priority? (Of course, looking like a hot mama by the going standards should be everyone's top priority, regardless of kids or anything else...if it's not, they totally have no right to complain about the shaming and body image crap regularly dumped on them via society, media, the brainwashed, etc.) I don't blame women for being offended by that "what's your excuse?" BS. Talk about trying to start sh1t by heavily implicated insult to a huge group of people! Like celebrities don't have resources at their disposal that normal women don't.

How often does the discomfort a woman feels about her body come from the outside, not the inside, though she may think it's all her because she has internalized the toxic messages that were spoon-fed to her from an early age? How many of those millions of dissatisfied women have distorted body images and are freaking out and being unhealthy because they're told they're fat? I'm surrounded by people who are size 0-4 who say what "fat cows" they are and how they need to stop eating - ALL DAY LONG.

I find it sad that some people sound critical of women who don't look more like these celebrities because they're "not trying". Who says women aren't trying? We work with what we have, and I'm sorry, but genetics play a very real part in that. So should an eating disorder be the next step since there's obviously no excuse for a woman to be bound by her body type or genetics at all? And gosh, what's the excuse of those women with thyroid or other health issues, while we're at it? They have an obligation to look like Barbie, too! And why CAN'T a woman spend 6 hours a day at the gym and eat nothing but healthy gourmet meals made with the finest organic ingredients? I find some of the thinking on these issues to be totally unrealistic and harmful. And basically blaming towards women - "It's your fault if you don't look like (insert popular celebrity who meets ridiculous beauty/body standards) because you have total control over everything in your life! So STFU and enjoy your shaming that you have rightfully earned with your apparent inaction and failure to live up to said beauty/body standards!"

Whether a woman is heavy or thin (or has any other perceived "flaw/imperfection"), shaming is wrong. And she doesn't deserve it for any reason. Deciding from the sidelines that she's "not trying" (or not trying hard _enough_) is not right, either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



soulpotato said:


> What makes anyone think women haven't done their best to "do something about it" or that it's not a priority? (Of course, looking like a hot mama by the going standards should be everyone's top priority, regardless of kids or anything else...if it's not, they totally have no right to complain about the shaming and body image crap regularly dumped on them via society, media, the brainwashed, etc.) I don't blame women for being offended by that "what's your excuse?" BS. Talk about trying to start sh1t by heavily implicated insult to a huge group of people! Like celebrities don't have resources at their disposal that normal women don't.
> 
> How often does the discomfort a woman feels about her body comes from the outside, not the inside, though she may think it's all her because she has internalized the toxic messages that were spoon-fed to her from an early age? How many of those millions of dissatisfied women have distorted body images and are freaking out and being unhealthy because they're told they're fat? I'm surrounded by people who are size 0-4 who say what "fat cows" they are and how they need to stop eating - ALL DAY LONG.
> 
> I find it sad that some people sound critical of women who don't look more like these celebrities because they're "not trying". Who says women aren't trying? We work with what we have, and I'm sorry, *but genetics play a very real part in that*. So should an eating disorder be the next step since there's obviously no excuse for a woman to be bound by her body type or genetics at all? And gosh, what's the excuse of those women with thyroid or other health issues, while we're at it? They have an obligation to look like Barbie, too! And why CAN'T a woman spend 6 hours a day at the gym and eat nothing but healthy gourmet meals made with the finest organic ingredients? I find some of the thinking on these issues to be totally unrealistic and harmful. And basically blaming towards women - "It's your fault if you don't look like (insert popular celebrity who meets ridiculous beauty/body standards) because you have total control over everything in your life! So STFU and enjoy your shaming that you have rightfully earned with your apparent inaction and failure to live up to said beauty/body standards!"
> 
> Whether a woman is heavy or thin (or has any other perceived "flaw/imperfection"), shaming is wrong. And she doesn't deserve it for any reason. Deciding from the sidelines that she's "not trying" (or not trying hard _enough_) is not right, either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So does Facebook...


----------



## Rowan

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Davelli0331 said:


> Here again I think the message Kang was trying to convey is lost in both the confrontational tone and suggestive imagery of the photo.


Most messages do get lost when couched in a confrontational tone. That's communications 101. If Ms. Kang wished to communicate a message of empowerment, she failed with at least a portion of her audience. If she wanted to stir controversy to increase her exposure, well, then she's firing on all cylinders.


----------



## samyeagar

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I am not trying to incite or anything here, but I do find myself irritated when people say they don't have time for things when they spend how much time on things like the television, Facebook, things like that. I am not saying anything is wrong with watching tv, or being on Facebook, but don't act like it is something that is required. It's about priorities. It is a choice, plain and simple.


----------



## Fozzy

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Shaming works as a motivator unfortunately. As was mentioned earlier, shaming was a major factor in getting smoking rates curbed.

Negative reinforcement, including shaming, browbeating, threats, etc are very effective at getting behavioral results. They're also effective in my opinion at causing negative psychological consequences. Shame, fear, stress etc all get internalized over time. And the desired behaviors go away the moment the shaming goes away, because guess what--the person never wanted to be going to the gym or eating hemp hearts in the first place. They were only doing it to avoid the shame.

People who want to hit the gym because they decide for themselves they want to look and feel better will be the successful ones, but they have to make that decision for themselves, not because some meathead or fashion model calls them lazy.


----------



## Davelli0331

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



samyeagar said:


> I am not trying to incite or anything here, but I do find myself irritated when people say they don't have time for things when they spend how much time on things like the television, Facebook, things like that. I am not saying anything is wrong with watching tv, or being on Facebook, but don't act like it is something that is required. It's about priorities. It is a choice, plain and simple.


I think this is the crux of what Kang was trying to get across. I don't think her message was about trying to look like her or anyone else's ideals, but rather _*if*_ you are unhappy with your body, then do you really have a reason for the shape you're in, or are those actually excuses?

I'm not sure so that the reaction to her image would have been much better if her caption had been more positive. Would everyone have accepted her more warmly if she'd said, "I just had my third child, and now I've worked hard to get back in shape!" would that have been any better? I tend not to think so.


----------



## samyeagar

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Fozzy said:


> Shaming works as a motivator unfortunately. As was mentioned earlier, shaming was a major factor in getting smoking rates curbed.
> 
> *Negative reinforcement, including shaming, browbeating, threats, etc are very effective at getting behavioral results*. They're also effective in my opinion at causing negative psychological consequences. Shame, fear, stress etc all get internalized over time. And the desired behaviors go away the moment the shaming goes away, because guess what--the person never wanted to be going to the gym or eating hemp hearts in the first place. They were only doing it to avoid the shame.
> 
> People who want to hit the gym because they decide for themselves they want to look and feel better will be the successful ones, but they have to make that decision for themselves, not because some meathead or fashion model calls them lazy.


And positive reinforcement is only so effective as well. A lot of people play the cost/benefit game and settle for the status quo. The mind set of nothing BAD is going to happen if I don't do this, so rather than put out the effort, I'll just keep doing what I'm doing. Priorities again. The desire has to come from within.


----------



## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Maybe Obama's Christmas card this year should be himself in the Oval Office, surrounded by his family, his university degrees, and some stacks of money, captioned "What's Your Excuse?"

It wouldn't be shaming anyone for not having nice family, the smarts and dedication to work hard at his studies, and the determination to succeed. No, it's just a motivational tool for Americans to get off their asses. Right?


----------



## samyeagar

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Davelli0331 said:


> I think this is the crux of what Kang was trying to get across. I don't think her message was about trying to look like her or anyone else's ideals, but rather _*if*_ you are unhappy with your body, then do you really have a reason for the shape you're in, or are those actually excuses?
> 
> *I'm not sure so that the reaction to her image would have been much better if her caption had been more positive. Would everyone have accepted her more warmly if she'd said, "I just had my third child, and now I've worked hard to get this body!" would that have been any better? I tend not to think so*.


I agree. I am not sure there is any way to have presented it in a way that would have been more widely accepted. If she had said it in the way you just suggested, the reaction would have been along the lines of she is showing off, rubbing it in, not everyone can do that because they don't have time, bad genetics. Same things being said now.

Even if it was simply "Be the Best You Can Be" it STILL would have come off like she was bragging.


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## soulpotato

samyeagar said:


> I am not trying to incite or anything here, but I do find myself irritated when people say they don't have time for things when they spend how much time on things like the television, Facebook, things like that. I am not saying anything is wrong with watching tv, or being on Facebook, but don't act like it is something that is required. It's about priorities. It is a choice, plain and simple.


Assumptions and implications. This is more of the "not trying" line of blaming/accusation. Doing things for one's health and fitness (WITHIN REASON, not fantasy land) are choices, but genetics and how one's body responds (or can respond) are not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Davelli0331 said:


> I think this is the crux of what Kang was trying to get across. I don't think her message was about trying to look like her or anyone else's ideals..


That's what it comes across as, however.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



soulpotato said:


> Assumptions and implications. This is more of the "not trying" line of blaming/accusation. Doing things for one's health and fitness (WITHIN REASON, not fantasy land) are choices, *but genetics and how one's body responds (or can respond) are not*.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For sure genetics can be a factor, but is it really for most people? Absolutely some people have an easier time than others for just that reason, but are their genetic limitations really THAT prohibitive?

Sort of like in academics...whether you have an IQ of 95 or 125, most people are ABLE to achieve the same basic results and graduate high school. It's just that one person may have to work a hell of a lot harder to achieve the same result.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



samyeagar said:


> *Priorities again. The desire has to come from within.*


:iagree:
There is really,
No excuse.

If you want to achieve it, then go get it.
If you don't want it, then stop gripeing and be at peace with yourself..


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



soulpotato said:


> That's what it comes across as, however.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is it fair to say that's what it comes across as to someone specifically who has image issues or isn't happy about their spare tire or muffin-top?

Not trying to put you on the spot, but I am wondering if a person with a healthy body image is more likely to be nonplussed by the message as opposed to someone that looks in the mirror and sees flaws or shortcomings?

Again I just find it interesting how some folks see that and think, "Hell, yeah ... I do need to take more time for myself." and others see it and think, "Look at that condescending, self-promoting, mean-spirited woman shaming others and showing off."


----------



## Caribbean Man

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



samyeagar said:


> Sort of like in academics...whether you have an IQ of 95 or 125, most people are ABLE to achieve the same basic results and graduate high school. * It's just that one person may have to work a hell of a lot harder to achieve the same result.*


:iagree:
Hah!
I basically typed the exact analogy with reference to academics, in an earlier post but deleted it.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Deejo said:


> Is it fair to say that's what it comes across as to someone specifically who has image issues or isn't happy about their spare tire or muffin-top?
> 
> Not trying to put you on the spot, but I am wondering if a person with a healthy body image is more likely to be nonplussed by the message as opposed to someone that looks in the mirror and sees flaws or shortcomings?
> 
> Again I just find it interesting how some folks see that and think, "Hell, yeah ... I do need to take more time for myself." and others see it and think, "Look at that condescending, self-promoting, mean-spirited woman shaming others and showing off."


I have body image issues and like I said,my initial reaction was sarcastic and annoyed.full of jealousy.drinkin my haterade...eatin ma hatertots.whatever you want to call it

The important part is for the folks with body image issues to not be threatened by a chick who is proud of her figure and try to take away something positive from her 'in your face' post.It's better to try and realize she likely wanted attention and controversy so she chose a confrontational way to motivate people.She wants people to ask themselves if they're happy with their body and if they're not,what can they do about it.


----------



## soulpotato

samyeagar said:


> ...not everyone can do that because they don't have time, bad genetics. Same things being said now.


Not BAD genetics, but ones that aren't currently in the approved beauty slot. And lack of time is a reality for most people. What's wrong with those things? You think reality = excuses and lack of prioritizing? Even for people who can do it all (gym, healthy eating) - and I have - mileage WILL vary, and that's reality. It's not fair or right to compare everyone to one specific type and judge them as lacking or flawed (or not trying/wasting time on FB!) because they don't match it, regardless of how healthy/dialed in fitness-wise they are.

A judgmental message tends to irritate more than anything else, I should think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Davelli0331

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

And for the record, at least for me, this is not a female-centric issue. I know this thread specifically asks about women, but in my life I deal with this issue much more with men. My dad, my brother, and one of my best friends all lead incredibly unhealthy lives. They're all obese, my dad and my best friend (who is 32) are both pre-diabetic, and they all have many of the issues associated with obesity: Bad backs, bad knees, no energy, poor sleep, etc.

My concern for them has absolutely nothing to do with how they look or wanting them to conform to some perfect ideal of physical beauty. It has everything to do with watching them abuse their bodies and the prices they pay for it.


----------



## samyeagar

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Unfortunately, a lot of people have a defensive reaction when someone else says "This is MY choice" or "This is MY priority" no matter what it is, and the gut response is that of competitiveness. 

I also think this is related to the fact that people in general enjoy an equal level with those around them. WHen one perceives an imbalance, people tend to try and level the field. That can be done in two ways. Build your self UP, or tear the OTHER down. One is far easier to do than the other...


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



ScarletBegonias said:


> I have body image issues and like I said,my initial reaction was sarcastic and annoyed.full of jealousy.drinkin my haterade...eatin ma hatertots.whatever you want to call it
> 
> The important part is for the folks with body image issues to not be threatened by a chick who is proud of her figure and try to take away something positive from her 'in your face' post.It's better to try and realize she likely wanted attention and controversy so she chose a confrontational way to motivate people.She wants people to ask themselves if they're happy with their body and if they're not,what can they do about it.


Thanks for sharing that SB. 

I have a friend in business whose measure of success is quite simple;

"If you are out there doing what you need to do to be successful and there is nobody that dislikes you? You aren't really out there and you're probably not all that successful."

Another kind of controversial take, but I agree with it.


----------



## Faithful Wife

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Saw a dude on the roadside asking for handouts, holding a sign that said: WILL TAKE VERBAL ABUSE FOR A DOLLAR

Interesting concept. If lotsa people hate you, maybe they'd all pay you money to let them tell you about it.


----------



## soulpotato

Deejo said:


> Is it fair to say that's what it comes across as to someone specifically who has image issues or isn't happy about their spare tire or muffin-top?
> 
> Not trying to put you on the spot, but I am wondering if a person with a healthy body image is more likely to be nonplussed by the message as opposed to someone that looks in the mirror and sees flaws or shortcomings?
> 
> Again I just find it interesting how some folks see that and think, "Hell, yeah ... I do need to take more time for myself." and others see it and think, "Look at that condescending, self-promoting, mean-spirited woman shaming others and showing off."


I think the message is judgmental regardless. It's in the phrasing. If anyone said that in my hearing about anything, I'd find it so.

Ah, and now the shaming comes my way. Let me tell you something. Most women look in the mirror and think they're "fat", even when they're anorexic and so thin that they're about to be hospitalized. Does it mean they're fat or need work just because they think it? No, it means the sh1t has gotten to them. You're assuming something is "wrong" if a woman perceives there is something wrong.

So you think obviously I must be obese and unattractive if I have a problem with all this and carry my own body image issues? Well, I'm not. Even if I were, the implication is that it would disqualify me from having a valid issue with it all? (I should think most women exposed to media have body image issues. I recall reading in my sociology book about just such a correlation.) Even when I was working out for 2 hrs a day 5 days a week, eating nothing but smoothies and salads, and with a low enough BMI that the folks at the gym said "please don't go any lower", people still shamed me and told me how they felt I was lacking, and the ways in which I failed to meet the popular standard. (The really ironic thing is that one or two others asked me if I was eating enough and expressed concern.) So yes, I have a huge problem with it. I've gained and lost weight all my life, and I've experienced people being total judgmental a$$es whether I was a size 7 or a size 11 (not to mention the ever toxic media). I'm also perfectly capable of observing the effect it has on other women and realistic expectations and standards regardless of whether I'm perfectly fit or have gained weight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

And again, it's not just about a woman's weight, post-baby or otherwise. The issue goes far deeper to proportions, height, shape - you name it. Some things only plastic surgery could change, and why? There's nothing wrong with her nose, her knees, if she has a straight waist or curves - except that society dictates that only x, y, and z are beautiful and all else is unattractive. On that note, I've already said that my partner is really beautiful. But even she gets critical and harassing comments because SHE apparently doesn't meet the ridiculous standards, either. I think this is INSANE. So where does it end? Do we start cloning the "ideal" woman or what? Some rare unicorns that fit THAT bill! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## greenfern

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Motivational:
"shut up & squat", displayed in a gym by the fitness equipment

Not Motivational:
"whats your excuse [for not looking like me]", with an image of a model or someone in clearly the top 1% of attractive people.


----------



## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I have to say, I really don't understand why the message of "be happy with yourself as you are" is interpreted as a celebration of obesity, shaming of people who are more fit, or just an excuse for being lazy.

I think it's great when people feel good about themselves and are comfortable in their own skin. I don't care how much they weigh, nor do I think they need to change.

And if you aren't attracted to them as they are, well, go find someone else to date. Why should your fitness ideals become theirs?


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Nope. It was just a question. Not a set-up. Promise. Certainly didn't make any presumptions about you or your appearance ... yet you thought that I was. I'm sorry.

My last LTR was a beautiful, fun, woman. Size 2. Got looks everywhere we went. She always found things to criticize about herself, and not in a vain way. It was painful to see. And there was nothing I could do about it. Loved her. Not because she was skinny.

I think part of why I asked the question, is wondering if there is a way for me, or anyone for that matter to help fix the problem.



soulpotato said:


> I think the message is judgmental regardless. It's in the phrasing. If anyone said that in my hearing about anything, I'd find it so.
> 
> Ah, and now the shaming comes my way. Let me tell you something. Most women look in the mirror and think they're "fat", even when they're anorexic and so thin that they're about to be hospitalized. Does it mean they're fat or need work just because they think it? No, it means the sh1t has gotten to them. You're assuming something is "wrong" if a woman perceives there is something wrong.
> 
> So you think obviously I must be obese and unattractive if I have a problem with all this and carry my own body image issues? Well, I'm not. Even if I were, the implication is that it would disqualify me from having a valid issue with it all? (I should think most women exposed to media have body image issues. I recall reading in my sociology book about just such a correlation.) Even when I was working out for 2 hrs a day 5 days a week, eating nothing but smoothies and salads, and with a low enough BMI that the folks at the gym said "please don't go any lower", people still shamed me and told me how they felt I was lacking, and the ways in which I failed to meet the popular standard. (The really ironic thing is that one or two others asked me if I was eating enough and expressed concern.) So yes, I have a huge problem with it. I've gained and lost weight all my life, and I've experienced people being total judgmental a$$es whether I was a size 7 or a size 11 (not to mention the ever toxic media). I'm also perfectly capable of observing the effect it has on other women and realistic expectations and standards regardless of whether I'm perfectly fit or have gained weight.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hawkeye

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



soulpotato said:


> I find it sad that some people sound critical of women who don't look more like these celebrities because they're "not trying". Who says women aren't trying? We work with what we have, and I'm sorry, but *genetics *play a very real part in that. So should an eating disorder be the next step since there's obviously no excuse for a woman to be bound by her body type or genetics at all? And gosh, what's the excuse of those women with* thyroid* or other health issues, while we're at it? They have an obligation to look like Barbie, too! And why CAN'T a woman spend *6 hours a day at the gym* and *eat nothing but healthy gourmet meals made with the finest organic ingredients*? I find some of the thinking on these issues to be totally unrealistic and harmful.


Lot of excuses in there. I'm tired of people painting weight control and fitness as some herculean effort that requires hours and hours of time every day. 80% of this is diet control, which takes almost no extra time. Add 3-4 hours of time in the gym per week and boom, you'll be pretty damn fit. Making this out to be some unachievable thing that only celebrities have time for is a great way to instantly set yourself up for failure.

And yes, yes, thyroids. I get that there are some people who are going to have a harder time losing weight or keeping it off. But let's be honest here, most of the obese in this country are that way because they're lazy and have terrible diets.


----------



## soulpotato

FrenchFry said:


> The reason I liked your post soulpotato is:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Yep. Haters are going to hate regardless. What is their excuse?
> 
> I don't buy the "if people are hating on you, you are doing something right" thing...because people hate on you if you are doing wrong, right, up, down. Especially fitness people, holy cow.
> 
> 2. My disordered mind would be unhappy with Excuses womans body as well. It's not the biggest reason I don't really have any visceral negative reactions towards her, but it's one of them.


1) Right on, FF!  Absolutely.

2) Too many people assume that someone's body-image accurately reflects reality. To listen to any of the women I know...if you tried to match the self-description to the woman, you'd never find her!

As for that woman's body, what she does with it, her genetics, etc - don't care about that. What bothers me is her message and also the way people are and will be using it to perpetuate harmful and unpleasant things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

hawkeye said:


> Lot of excuses in there. I'm tired of people painting weight control and fitness as some herculean effort that requires hours and hours of time every day. 80% of this is diet control, which takes almost no extra time. Add 3-4 hours of time in the gym per week and boom, you'll be pretty damn fit. Making this out to be some unachievable thing that only celebrities have time for is a great way to instantly set yourself up for failure.
> 
> And yes, yes, thyroids. I get that there are some people who are going to have a harder time losing weight or keeping it off. But let's be honest here, most of the obese in this country are that way because they're lazy and have terrible diets.


Wow, the insensitivity and judgmental attitude here are overpowering. I exaggerated to make a point. Look, as I said in another post, I've been there and done that. But the unrealistic expectations (and that a lot of input = magic) are damaging.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

One of the things that makes this issue, and many others sooo difficult to deal with is that a persons perception IS their realtiy, and your perception is YOUR reality, and often times, they are different.


----------



## hawkeye

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



soulpotato said:


> Wow, the insensitivity and judgmental attitude here are overpowering. I exaggerated to make a point. Look, as I said in another post, I've been there and done that. But the unrealistic expectations (and that a lot of input = magic) are damaging.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What's insensitive and judgmental about it? Eating right doesn't take time. Working out only takes a few hours/week. Is this insensitive? 

And the majority of fat people are that way because they don't eat right and don't work out. Are you denying that? Is it judgmental to say that?


----------



## Davelli0331

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I think this issue is very similar to what we see with BSes giving other BSes advice in CWI. You have some people coming from positions of extreme personal pain, and that personal anguish, shame, etc, come out in their views, which often tend to be very reactionary.

That's not to say that such views are invalid, certainly I don't believe that.


----------



## soulpotato

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I look forward to the day when less weight is placed on a woman's looks and whether they match some arbitrary standard or not. I once asked most of the women I knew if they'd rather be lacking intelligence but "beautiful", or if they'd prefer to trade some looks for some wits. Do I need to tell you how many of them would rather be witless and "beautiful"?

(FF, I love your posts - they are always so intelligent and insightful. )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Deejo said:


> Nope. It was just a question. Not a set-up. Promise. Certainly didn't make any presumptions about you or your appearance ... yet you thought that I was. I'm sorry.


I thought that was your intention because of the "putting you on the spot" statement, especially since it followed those other statements. (I'd quote, but...damned mobile interface, painful.) Not trying to yell at you or anything. I've had other people make that assumption every time they realized I was passionate about this subject (it has also happened to my partner).



Deejo said:


> My last LTR was a beautiful, fun, woman. Size 2. Got looks everywhere we went. She always found things to criticize about herself, and not in a vain way. It was painful to see. And there was nothing I could do about it. Loved her. Not because she was skinny.
> 
> I think part of why I asked the question, is wondering if there is a way for me, or anyone for that matter to help fix the problem.


When I get into one of those modes, I drive my partner crazy with it. (Great example of being in one of those modes...when I met my partner, I was in excellent shape. Yet I ended up sobbing to my mother that my partner-to-be wouldn't love me because I could never meet the beauty standards, and with her being so close to them...well, it just terrified me.) It does make a difference when you say those positive and affirming things to people, though, just as the criticisms matter. But negatives also pack more punch than positives, unfortunately.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ScarletBegonias

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



soulpotato said:


> I thought that was your intention because of the "putting you on the spot" statement, especially since it followed those other statements. (I'd quote, but...damned mobile interface, painful.) Not trying to yell at you or anything. I've had other people make that assumption every time they realized I was passionate about this subject (it has also happened to my partner).
> 
> 
> 
> When I get into one of those modes, I drive my partner crazy with it. (Great example of being in one of those modes...when I met my partner, I was in excellent shape. Yet I ended up sobbing to my mother that my partner-to-be wouldn't love me because I could never meet the beauty standards, and with her being so close to them...well, it just terrified me.) It does make a difference when you say those positive and affirming things to people, though, just as the criticisms matter. But negatives also pack more punch than positives, unfortunately.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You seem to be hypersensitive and easily offended by many posts on tam.I remember you got all in my face about some BPD posts I did too. 

Maybe try not to take things here so personally? No one is saying anything to hurt you on purpose or to offend you.


----------



## samyeagar

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



soulpotato said:


> I thought that was your intention because of the "putting you on the spot" statement, especially since it followed those other statements. (I'd quote, but...damned mobile interface, painful.) Not trying to yell at you or anything. I've had other people make that assumption every time they realized I was passionate about this subject (it has also happened to my partner).
> 
> 
> 
> When I get into one of those modes, I drive my partner crazy with it. (Great example of being in one of those modes...when I met my partner, I was in excellent shape. Yet I ended up sobbing to my mother that my partner-to-be wouldn't love me because I could never meet the beauty standards, and with her being so close to them...well, it just terrified me.) It does make a difference when you say those positive and affirming things to people, though, just as the criticisms matter. But negatives also pack more punch than positives, unfortunately.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just for a bit of perspective here...I am a guy with body image issues. I attribute a lot of the to my ex wife. Objectively, intellectually, I know I am in good shape and look good, well toned, attractive by most women's standards. My STBW has pointed out on many occasions that she is somewhat intimidated by my universaly attractive look. I've been asked if I've done modelling. The thing is, though I know all that in my mind, getting my emotional side to accept it is a completely different thing entirely. It has manifested itself in some not so great ways.

So for all the women who struggle with body image issues, though different from my own, I do understand first hand what it feels like.


----------



## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



FrenchFry said:


> So I might have missed this. I'm reading ONTD again and this pops up:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, so THAT'S why people are calling her out.
> 
> Yeah, I'm all for giving an F about your own personal goals, but really STFU if you aren't happy with how someone else looks and telling them they aren't working hard, dedicated or disciplined because of their weight.
> 
> That's what I'm talking about. Haters stay hating.


Yes, she was annoyed and irritated that a lingerie store had the gall to promote sexy lingerie for women of all sizes and shapes so every woman could get their sexy on. She was irritated that fat girls could be fat and still have some self-esteem.


----------



## Married but Happy

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



hawkeye said:


> What's insensitive and judgmental about it? Eating right doesn't take time. Working out only takes a few hours/week. Is this insensitive?
> 
> And the majority of fat people are that way because they don't eat right and don't work out. Are you denying that? Is it judgmental to say that?


Basically, I agree. Sure, some people have genetic or medical issues that predispose them to weight problems. Many are doing the best they can, and I respect them for that. But many people do not even TRY to maintain a healthy weight. That's their choice, of course - even though I think it's a poor choice. I know I make choices that some people think are poor - too bad, they're still MY choices. You don't have to like me or associate with me if you disagree, either!

There is also a problem in that many people are not educated about healthy choices, and have poor access to sources of healthy food and activity. This is particularly an issue amongst the poor. Shaming usually won't do any good - it will only create resistance. Education will probably help, but who's paying for that, and how effective is it anyway?


----------



## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Education would probably help somewhat, but it's going up against a vast amount of marketing to sell you cheap, crappy food. I have a DVR so I don't watch commercials anymore, but if you watch tv in the evening, it's amazing how much crap food is advertised all night long. 

Like with smoking, there would need to be an entire paradigm shift so McDonald's and Arby's, for example, would be hounded out of the business for selling unhealthy food. And the peas and broccoli sellers would need to be given subsidies so they could spend vast amounts of money marketing Mom's Homemade Savory Soup instead. Our society is so not there.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



norajane said:


> Education would probably help somewhat, but it's going up against a vast amount of marketing to sell you cheap, crappy food. I have a DVR so I don't watch commercials anymore, but if you watch tv in the evening, it's amazing how much crap food is advertised all night long.
> 
> Like with smoking, there would need to be an entire paradigm shift so McDonald's and Arby's, for example, would be hounded out of the business for selling unhealthy food. And the peas and broccoli sellers would need to be given subsidies so they could spend vast amounts of money marketing Mom's Homemade Savory Soup instead. Our society is so not there.


I hear that.I get soooo flippin sick of food commercials and shopping commercials.
If I have to listen to that damn jc penny shopping song ONE MORE TIME...


----------



## hawkeye

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

You don't even need to get rid of fast food. You need to teach people that their body needs x amount of calories a day. Eat more than that, you gonna get fat. Eat less, you lose weight. Teach them to actually count this and they can keep eating those Big Macs, just one or two fewer.


----------



## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



hawkeye said:


> You don't even need to get rid of fast food. You need to teach people that their body needs x amount of calories a day. Eat more than that, you gonna get fat. Eat less, you lose weight. Teach them to actually count this and they can keep eating those Big Macs, just one or two fewer.


And what's the point of that? That may lead to thin people, but they'll still be clogging their arteries, have high blood pressure due to the sodium, and where's the nutrition?

This is exactly what this thread is talking about. The message is you must LOOK thin at all costs regardless.

A person could eat 1200 calories of Snickers all day and lose weight and be thin, but why is that something to strive for?


----------



## Faithful Wife

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Ooohhh the Snickers diet! Yeah I was on that one back in college.


----------



## hawkeye

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



FrenchFry said:


> Cheap
> Healthy
> Tasty
> 
> Pick two...


Eating chicken breast out of my crock pot. Satisfies all three. Also was easy.


----------



## samyeagar

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



norajane said:


> And what's the point of that? That may lead to thin people, but they'll still be clogging their arteries, have high blood pressure due to the sodium, and where's the nutrition?
> 
> This is exactly what this thread is talking about. The message is you must LOOK thin at all costs regardless.
> 
> *A person could eat 1200 calories of Snickers all day and lose weight and be thin, but why is that something to strive for*?


Add a few zero calorie cigarettes in there and really watch the pounds drop off...


----------



## hawkeye

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



norajane said:


> And what's the point of that? That may lead to thin people, but they'll still be clogging their arteries, have high blood pressure due to the sodium, and where's the nutrition?
> 
> This is exactly what this thread is talking about. The message is you must LOOK thin at all costs regardless.
> 
> A person could eat 1200 calories of Snickers all day and lose weight and be thin, but why is that something to strive for?


Oh, I agree. I still put my money of a thin person eating a burger being more healthy that a fat one eating two burgers.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Faithful Wife said:


> Ooohhh the Snickers diet! Yeah I was on that one back in college.


sounds as delightful as my ramen noodle diet when I was poor.

and hamburger helper without the hamburger


----------



## Faithful Wife

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

This might not be a popular thing to say, but we each get to decide how we feel about ourselves. You can accept negative messages and let them make you feel bad about yourself, or you can reject negative messages and only take in positive ones. I'm not downplaying how hard it is to deal with having poor body image issues, especially if those negative messages came at you from family during childhood. But you can learn to rid yourself of them.

No one is in your head controlling your thoughts and forcing you to feel any certain way about yourself. If you feel like crap about your body or your looks, you are the only one who can change how you feel. If you want to change how you feel, get to work in your own mind and find techniques to combat the negative messages. Do this long enough and diligently enough and you can reverse your poor body image issues.


----------



## Faithful Wife

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I have a female friend who is at least 200 pounds at 5'3". She has always had a very good self image. This is because she is an extremely sexual person (an ESP) and was always aware that ESP men in the world were hot for her. She also always focused on her natural beauty like her ice blue eyes and jet black, beautiful hair. When people referred to her as "fat" she was always taken back a bit. She just didn't see herself that way and was confused when others did.


----------



## Fozzy

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



FrenchFry said:


> So I might have missed this. I'm reading ONTD again and this pops up:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, so THAT'S why people are calling her out.
> 
> Yeah, I'm all for giving an F about your own personal goals, but really STFU if you aren't happy with how someone else looks and telling them they aren't working hard, dedicated or disciplined because of their weight.
> 
> That's what I'm talking about. Haters stay hating.


This. Next time you have something nasty to say about how someone looks, don't. I learned this before kindergarten.


----------



## soulpotato

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Thinking the issues away, huh?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Well, they are your thoughts, afterall. There are many methods to work on this. Here's one of them:

Cognitive behavioral therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Faithful Wife

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Here's some more:

Messages to Myself: Overcoming a Distorted Self-Image: Helen B. Mcintosh: 9780834124561: Amazon.com: Books

Mastering a Healthy Self Image: Darrell Knoch: 9780615540597: Amazon.com: Books


----------



## Faithful Wife

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Or if you're spiritual, try this one:

My Reflection in His Eyes: Seeing Yourself as God Sees You: April Motl: 9780615676357: Amazon.com: Books


----------



## ScarletBegonias

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Personality disorders can play a huge role in how you see yourself too. Very difficult to overcome that but it's possible.


----------



## TiggyBlue

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



FrenchFry said:


> Cheap
> Healthy
> Tasty
> 
> Pick two...
> 
> I read a little bit more about Ms. Kang. I also didn't know she was bulimic at one point.
> 
> You can stop the disordered eating, but the disordered thoughts are much harder to get rid of and manifest in ugly ways sometimes.


:iagree:
and overeating can be a eating disorder too ( all though I realize stop over eating and exercise lazy is seen as a easy solution to some, just like trying to force feed a anorexic is seen a solution for to some).


----------



## soulpotato

ScarletBegonias said:


> You seem to be hypersensitive and easily offended by many posts on tam.I remember you got all in my face about some BPD posts I did too.
> 
> Maybe try not to take things here so personally? No one is saying anything to hurt you on purpose or to offend you.


SB!!! What's up, girl?! 

Naturally my thoughts on these matters differ from yours... Thank you kindly for the feedback. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## richie33

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

All 3 are responsible I would imagine. But if you sit around ralling that it's the media fault cause those damn McDonalds commercials are so effective, that my husband looks at other women, that other women are so damn mean and catty and chose not to take any responsibility for your own health.....you yourself might be the problem.


----------



## soulpotato

Faithful Wife said:


> Well, they are your thoughts, afterall. There are many methods to work on this. Here's one of them:
> 
> Cognitive behavioral therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I've had both DBT and CBT, though could always use more!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Faithful Wife said:


> Well, they are your thoughts, afterall. There are many methods to work on this. Here's one of them:
> 
> Cognitive behavioral therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


These sorts of things are very helpful, no doubt. And it is important for people to feel empowered to take control of their lives.

But I also see soulpotato's point. We are not islands, and how others perceive and treat us on a day to day basis affects how we feel. And no matter how free we think we are to be what we want to be, we're always dragging our pasts, cultures, and bodies around.

You can't always realize the changes you wish to make.


----------



## Faithful Wife

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

But sometimes you can, always.

So should we say "oh I'm so sorry, your thoughts are stuck in your head forever and you must believe them even if they contain negative messages about yourself that are not true...there's really no hope of ever getting rid of them"?

Disclosure: I've been through body image issues myself and spent YEARS correcting them using various forms of mental re-training. I never said it was easy. But I'd never say someone shouldn't be made aware that they can work on it and can be successful.

At some point I just got so tired of feeling like sh*t about myself and just wanted to be happy with who I am. That was the turning point for me and a decade or so later, now I actually AM happy with who I am.


----------



## soulpotato

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



samyeagar said:


> For sure genetics can be a factor, but is it really for most people? Absolutely some people have an easier time than others for just that reason, but are their genetic limitations really THAT prohibitive?


I think genetics definitely contribute for a lot of people - how much really just depends. I don't know what percentage of people have a stiff genetic challenge. I know people who just knock off chowing down on the potato chips every day and lose weight immediately. Definitely not me.



samyeagar said:


> Sort of like in academics...whether you have an IQ of 95 or 125, most people are ABLE to achieve the same basic results and graduate high school. It's just that one person may have to work a hell of a lot harder to achieve the same result.


Not anyone I ever knew, unless we're talking comparative abilities. It's not true that everyone can get the same results based simply on hard work. Using your academic example, I knew people in school who worked extremely hard, harder than those people with higher IQs, but could never get the same grades. The people who were naturally gifted did that and more, and with less effort. So what you start out with does matter to some degree.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



soulpotato said:


> When I get into one of those modes, I drive my partner crazy with it. (Great example of being in one of those modes...when I met my partner, I was in excellent shape. Yet I ended up sobbing to my mother that my partner-to-be wouldn't love me because I could never meet the beauty standards, and with her being so close to them...well, it just terrified me.) It does make a difference when you say those positive and affirming things to people, though, just as the criticisms matter. But negatives also pack more punch than positives, unfortunately.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do really apologize. I put in the 'not to put you on the spot' in the hopes of de-personalizing the question.

I think what bothers me from talking to my then GF, was that she would comment that I was the first man she knew who accepted her as she was. She outright told me that her ex husband and old boyfriends had no hesitation in critiquing her. Her ex husband told her that she was getting fat because her thighs touched. The woman was 5' 9" and maybe, maybe, 125 pounds.

The problem was what she chose to hold onto. What she held onto were the criticisms, not the compliments. In five years, she will still no doubt remember clearly and associate most closely with the unflattering things her ex said to her, not the genuine and loving compliments myself, or anyone else may give.

It's poison. And it seems like all of the truth, kind words, and compliments in the world can't undo the damage of what just a few harsh words can.


----------



## Conrad

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Deejo said:


> Do really apologize. I put in the 'not to put you on the spot' in the hopes of de-personalizing the question.
> 
> I think what bothers me from talking to my then GF, was that she would comment that I was the first man she knew who accepted her as she was. She outright told me that her ex husband and old boyfriends had no hesitation in critiquing her. Her ex husband told her that she was getting fat because her thighs touched. The woman was 5' 9" and maybe, maybe, 125 pounds.
> 
> The problem was what she chose to hold onto. What she held onto were the criticisms, not the compliments. In five years, she will still no doubt remember clearly and associate most closely with the unflattering things her ex said to her, not the genuine and loving compliments myself, or anyone else may give.
> 
> It's poison. And it seems like all of the truth, kind words, and compliments in the world can't undo the damage of what just a few harsh words can.


Especially if those harsh words validate a preconception of worthlessness.


----------



## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Deejo, it seems we're wired to remember negatives and require many more positives to outweigh one negative.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/24/y...e-than-positive-ones.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0



> “The brain handles positive and negative information in different hemispheres,” said Professor Nass, who co-authored “The Man Who Lied to His Laptop: What Machines Teach Us About Human Relationships” (Penguin 2010). Negative emotions generally involve more thinking, and the information is processed more thoroughly than positive ones, he said. Thus, we tend to ruminate more about unpleasant events — and use stronger words to describe them — than happy ones.
> 
> ...
> 
> “Research over and over again shows this is a basic and wide-ranging principle of psychology,” he said. “It’s in human nature, and there are even signs of it in animals,” in experiments with rats.
> 
> As the article, which is a summary of much of the research on the subject, succinctly puts it: “Bad emotions, bad parents and bad feedback have more impact than good ones. Bad impressions and bad stereotypes are quicker to form and more resistant to disconfirmation than good ones.”
> 
> ...
> 
> As Professor Baumeister noted in his study, “Many good events can overcome the psychological effects of a bad one.” In fact, the authors quote a ratio of five goods for every one bad.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Deejo said:


> Do really apologize. I put in the 'not to put you on the spot' in the hopes of de-personalizing the question.
> 
> I think what bothers me from talking to my then GF, was that she would comment that I was the first man she knew who accepted her as she was. She outright told me that her ex husband and old boyfriends had no hesitation in critiquing her. Her ex husband told her that she was getting fat because her thighs touched. The woman was 5' 9" and maybe, maybe, 125 pounds.
> 
> *The problem was what she chose to hold onto. What she held onto were the criticisms, not the compliments. In five years, she will still no doubt remember clearly and associate most closely with the unflattering things her ex said to her, not the genuine and loving compliments myself, or anyone else may give.*
> 
> *It's poison. And it seems like all of the truth, kind words, and compliments in the world can't undo the damage of what just a few harsh words can.*


:iagree:
It's a vicious , self defeating cycle.
And I don't believe for one minute that we're wired to remember only negatives or anything like that.

We're wired for survival.
Even though at times we might need external help ,ultimately,we heal ourselves.


----------



## Anon Pink

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Faithful Wife said:


> But sometimes you can, always.
> 
> So should we say "oh I'm so sorry, your thoughts are stuck in your head forever and you must believe them even if they contain negative messages about yourself that are not true...there's really no hope of ever getting rid of them"?


QFT! That's the bottom line, really. How much fun are you having hating yourself? Do you really think if you waved a magic wand and had the body of your dreams your life would be miraculous?

This is the part about aging that has been such a surprising benefit. Hindsight! I can look back at that perfect body of the 20 year old and know that she wasn't very happy. I can look at back at the hot MILF body with a few tat retch marks and know that she wasn't terribly happy either. I've seen my body in all sorts of different shapes and conditions and one thing is absolutely true. Our happiness and self love has NOTHING to do with our body shape, size or weight! Nothing what so ever!

I love being 50... +1....


----------



## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Faithful Wife said:


> At some point I just got so tired of feeling like sh*t about myself and just wanted to be happy with who I am. That was the turning point for me and a decade or so later, now I actually AM happy with who I am.


Oh I get it. Trust me, I get it. And I agree 100%. 

I wasted years being down on myself even though I knew better -- I *knew* advertising is bs, I *knew* not to listen to people's prejudices and petty grievances. I could tune out a whole lot, but somehow the message that I didn't measure up still made it through loud and clear.

My comment wasn't really directed at your suggestion for therapy,nor was it intended to suggest that we throw up our hands in despair. It was more to address team "just get over it" attitude that keeps popping out on this thread. (*not* saying you have this attitude)


----------



## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Deejo said:


> I think what bothers me from talking to my then GF, was that she would comment that *I was the first man she knew who accepted her as she was. *She outright told me that her ex husband and old boyfriends had no hesitation in critiquing her. Her ex husband told her that she was getting fat because her thighs touched. The woman was 5' 9" and maybe, maybe, 125 pounds.


This. This is what I've been trying to say on another thread on body image, but unsuccessfully. The negative message is reinforced and reinforced and reinforced, and when the first nice guy comes along, he's surprised that a few compliments isn't enough to shake out the years of reinforcing the negative.

You have to understand that it isn't "a few harsh words" that can't be erased by "all the compliments in the world". It's a few compliments that can't undo a lifetime of harsh. You may not believe that you really are the first to accept her for about she is, but she may very well be telling the truth.


----------



## SolidSnake

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

You know, I just think this is, or should be, a non-issue. I don't know why people are so focused on body image,and why this thread has so many posts. It is certainly not much of an issue for me at this point in my life. I just accept things and don't give it much more thought than that. Honest to God,today I saw a handicaped man on crutches,and I thought about how greatful I am just to be normal. I'm sorry if some people have serious negative body issues,but giving the subject so much priority is part of the problem. It's what is on the inside that really matters,so I try to focus on that. I rarely think negativly about my own,or other peoples bodies. Just don't think about it. I am healthy and seek moderation in this and all things. I don't work our all that much,but I also eat right for health reasons and that's the most thought I give to my wheight. People need to shut up and mind their own business when it comes to other peoples bodies. Don't criticize,don't flaunt,and don't even worry about it unless there is a serious health issue. Just do what you need to do and worry about yourself. Don't worry about what anyone else thinks and try not to compare yourself to others,and it becomes a non-issue. To answer the OP's question, everyone is responsible for themselves, and stop worrying so much about it._Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I think this is a really good summary of what many women have been trying to express in this thread on the effect of media on woman:

This 5-Minute Video Will Show Exactly How The Media Affects A Woman's Self-Perception | Elite Daily


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



always_alone said:


> This. This is what I've been trying to say on another thread on body image, but unsuccessfully. The negative message is reinforced and reinforced and reinforced, and when the first nice guy comes along, he's surprised that a few compliments isn't enough to shake out the years of reinforcing the negative.
> 
> You have to understand that it isn't "a few harsh words" that can't be erased by "all the compliments in the world". It's a few compliments that can't undo a lifetime of harsh. You may not believe that you really are the first to accept her for about she is, but she may very well be telling the truth.


She was telling the truth. She just didn't know what to do with it. Love wasn't enough. Rough childhood. Sonuvab!tch for a father.
Great woman. Great memories. But somehow, I just know that the man she will feel most comfortable with is someone that will make her uncomfortable. And that is a tragedy, for everyone.


----------



## ASummersDay

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I think anyone looking for insight into the topic of female body image might want to check out the Killing Us Softly series and MissRepresentation.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



norajane said:


> I think this is a really good summary of what many women have been trying to express in this thread on the effect of media on woman:
> 
> This 5-Minute Video Will Show Exactly How The Media Affects A Woman's Self-Perception | Elite Daily


Thanks for this Norajane. It was very good. Agreed with most of what she had to say, struggled with the deconstruction and dehumanization breeds violence, but I understand where she was coming from.
From there, I found this one, and watched it. Smart woman. No doubt a bit nervous. But I still found what she had to say interesting. And of course in the comments, she gets excoriated, and praised.

She's a model telling people that modeling is a construct, and that models are subject to the same kinds of insecurity, and apparently the same kinds of criticism as everyone else, moreso because they are considered attractive. Tangled web. Based on everything that we've talked about here, I'd imagine some folks being angry or unable to see the message, because of the messenger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM4Xe6Dlp0Y


----------



## TiggyBlue

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

My take on it is with all the post baby pics that have been going around in the celeb world lately some women are starting to feel pressurized to that even after giving birth they need to have a perfectly flat flawless stomach (not saying the total cause of pressure is caused by media) .
With the combination of the pic 4 days of the baby (that ties her in with post baby flat stomach pic trend) and the slogan (that will being taken different ways depending on who's reading it) it's became a case of shoot the what's perceived as one of the messengers to look good straight after having a baby rather than be healthy which is what she's really saying.

On the health problems and overeating in western countries I think part of the problem is pretty simple, the same ways are taught a lot now days that were taught when food was a lot more sparse. Finishing you're plate was definitely essential before since getting a bigger meal wasn't a regular thing but now finish you're plate when a bigger meal is a constant thing teaches people from a young age to override signals that you're full. Food is treated more like a treated and advertised as a treat and used as a reward system rather than fuel for the body and the fact there is so many added chemicals in food (some that are to keep people craving it) it's not really a wonder that really surprising many people get addicted to foods that increase dopamine.

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/holiday-challenge-dopamine-why-just-one-bite-doesnt-work.html


----------



## 45188

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Disgusted me, this did. I'm proud of this woman. I have 2 kids and I worked damn hard to get my body back. But I would never "fat shame" other women because they didn't want to..


----------



## ScarletBegonias

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



kipani said:


> But I would never "fat shame" other women* because they didn't want to.*.


That line right there shows that you do in fact shame women who don't have their pre-baby bodies back. You wanted to get it back and that's why it happened in your situation. Since they didn't get theirs back that MUST mean it's bc they didn't want to.


----------



## ocotillo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Slight digression and the ladies here can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the pregnancy / birth process sometimes vastly different from one woman to the next?

Years ago I had a female coworker who had kind of an odd birth experience. She was mid 20's, Hispanic, petite and very pregnant. -35 weeks plus.

She started having a stomach ache right after lunch and went to see her OB/Gyn, who was in the same office building. Something about the elevator ride and the multiple stops going down to the second floor put her into a very rapid labor and she actually delivered within a few minutes in one of the exam rooms.

She came back to the office about 90 minutes or so later holding a tiny little five pound, but otherwise healthy baby. Some thought it was a practical joke, although one look at her belly sans baby should have been enough. Her hair wasn't even mussed and she exclaimed that it hadn't even hurt.

On the other hand, I've known women where pregnancy really knocked them for a loop and it took months to fully recover. 

So when women respond negatively to the, "What's your excuse?" slogan, maybe they suspect an element of unfairness in the comparison?


----------



## Anon Pink

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



ocotillo said:


> Slight digression and the ladies here can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the pregnancy / birth process sometimes vastly different from one woman to the next?
> 
> Years ago I had a female coworker who had kind of an odd birth experience. She was mid 20's, Hispanic, petite and very pregnant. -35 weeks plus.
> 
> She started having a stomach ache right after lunch and went to see her OB/Gyn, who was in the same office building. Something about the elevator ride and the multiple stops going down to the second floor put her into a very rapid labor and she actually delivered within a few minutes in one of the exam rooms.
> 
> She came back to the office about 90 minutes or so later holding a tiny little five pound, but otherwise healthy baby. Some thought it was a practical joke, although one look at her belly sans baby should have been enough. Her hair wasn't even mussed and she exclaimed that it hadn't even hurt.
> 
> On the other hand, I've known women where pregnancy really knocked them for a loop and it took months to fully recover.
> 
> So when women respond negatively to the, "What's your excuse?" slogan, maybe they suspect an element of unfairness in the comparison?


My mother called them "peasant births" and she learned that term from her mother from Italy. Women who don't suffer during birth were said to be descended from peasants who had no choice but to work the fields until they delivered, then go right back to the fields.

Rather disgraceful lack of respect and blatant elitism...

How lucky that woman was though! And no one would blame a long laboring woman for being too out of shape to quickly deliver that baby!


----------



## 45188

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Nah Scarlet, I was over 200 pounds after my kids. I worked hard to lose the weight, for myself. I know a lotttt of heavier women who kept talking about losing weight, but they don't try. They didn't even HAVE kids. They still drank a bunch of coke, still ate a ton of fast food. Their hearts aren't fully into it, period. *Shrugs* As they say - Actions speak louder than words.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I often wondered about something as simple as makeup. For men it's perfectly acceptable to go out in public clean and well groomed. For many women as well as being clean and well groomed they also feel the need to wear makeup. Why do women need to be "enhanced" to look good?


----------



## 45188

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Porn and photoshop.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



kipani said:


> Porn and photoshop.


Found this last night, waffled on how posting it would be received, but in light of the conversation, here it is. And I'm sure most folks won't be surprised a bit. Kudos to the ladies for so blatantly and clearly illustrating that the 'product' they create has very little to do with who they are and what they look like.

I must confess this discussion has helped me, and given me a lot of perspective on the matter. So ... thanks to all.

Porn Stars Without Make-Up: Second Chapter Of 'Before And After' Hit (PICTURES)


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



FrenchFry said:


> hahaha oh and porn and photoshop. :rofl:
> 
> This lady does a lot of porn makeup but this is one of my favorite transformations and why women wear makeup Instagram
> 
> Without makeup, I'm sure she is clean and well groomed...
> 
> with makeup she doesn't look like she's been up for three days on a Jager bender. Makeup is awesome, seriously...dudes are missing out.


The makeup artist in your link is responsible for all of the makeup on the women in mine.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



kipani said:


> Nah Scarlet, I was over 200 pounds after my kids. I worked hard to lose the weight, for myself. I know a lotttt of heavier women who kept talking about losing weight, but they don't try. They didn't even HAVE kids. They still drank a bunch of coke, still ate a ton of fast food. Their hearts aren't fully into it, period. *Shrugs* As they say - Actions speak louder than words.


A small sampling of women aren't representative of a whole population of women. Just bc your friends didn't do what it takes doesn't mean other heavy women aren't thin bc they don't want to do the things.

Too many people think just bc a few women around them are fat and do all the wrong things all fat women are doing the wrong things and they just don't want to be thin and don't want to do the work it takes to get thin.


----------



## Anon Pink

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

Do women buy into our own demise when we wear make up? Maybe. I just know that I feel better about myself with make up.

I have an aunt who is in her 90's, my mother's sister. All the sisters made fun of her because each work day after her husband left, she removed her make up and put her hair in curlers and spent the whole day that way. But when her husband was due home, she put on her make up and brushed out her hair and stayed that way till he left for work the next morning. She didn't care about being seen sans make up unless her husband was with her. Seems to me she had her priorities straighter than the rest of the sisters.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

My mother wouldn't go out of the house at night to the gas station up the street to get a candy bar without a full face of makeup.not even if I promised to go in and get the stupid candy bar. LOL "what if we're in an accident?? what if we get a flat tire???" 

I do enjoy wearing makeup though.It's fun


----------



## Anon Pink

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



ScarletBegonias said:


> A small sampling of women aren't representative of a whole population of women. Just bc your friends didn't do what it takes doesn't mean other heavy women aren't thin bc they don't want to do the things.
> 
> Too many people think just bc a few women around them are fat and do all the wrong things all fat women are doing the wrong things and they just don't want to be thin and don't want to do the work it takes to get thin.


Are you talking about 15-25 lbs over weight or are you talking about 50-100 lbs over weight? Because the latter group are doing less then nothing. While the former group are just body differences.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Anon Pink said:


> Are you talking about 15-25 lbs over weight or are you talking about 50-100 lbs over weight? Because the latter group are doing less then nothing. While the former group are just body differences.


I was mainly talking about women who don't bounce back after pregnancy or women who have been overweight since childhood.Some are lazy and some have major issues...whether those issues are physical or emotional.


----------



## Faithful Wife

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

When I was younger I wore a lot more makeup than I do now. Which still isn't that much compared to some other women, but was a lot for me. I felt that my skin tone had to be evened out or else my face looked yucky, I had dark circles around my eyes, etc, so I always wore foundation. Lots of eye makeup, too.

Then I went into a new job where I was basically working alone with a computer. Still in an office, but no one else was there and no one ever saw me. After just a few weeks of this, I stopped wearing make up every day.

Then I also stopped wearing professional clothes, and basically ended up going to work in my pj's. 

I loved that job! Worked there for 7 years. Couldn't wear pj's every day, but did it as much as I could get away with.

Anyway...something unexpected happened. I had figured that I must seem "less attractive" now that I was schlubbing around with no make up in my pj's. I expected that men wouldn't notice me or whistle at me on the street anymore. Before this job, I had worn cute short skirts and make up....now I was almost invisible, or so I thought.

It turned out there was really no difference. Men still noticed me, still whistled at me, still hit on me. I had several guys (who didn't know me back in my make up and short skirts days) tell me "yeah your look is just great, you look natural and sexy...give me a woman with no make up any day".

Now, I realize men will "just say" things and any man saying things like this to a woman is sometimes just being flattering (and may or may not have a benign motive). But I honestly believe NOW that I do look just as good with or without make up, and with or without the cute clothes. 

I took this as a life lesson and it really grew me up quite a bit. I can wear make up and clothes, or I can go natural and schlubbing it. The people who are truly attracted to you will still be attracted to you. It was liberating to stop thinking that clothes and make up are what it is all about....but then I also had to realize that I was the only one holding myself to that standard anyway. No one ever told me I should look this way or that way.


----------



## Anon Pink

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



ScarletBegonias said:


> My mother wouldn't go out of the house at night to the gas station up the street to get a candy bar without a full face of makeup.not even if I promised to go in and get the stupid candy bar. LOL "what if we're in an accident?? what if we get a flat tire???"
> 
> I do enjoy wearing makeup though.It's fun


Your younger than me so I don't know if you experienced a childhood with the Moms with their hair up in curlers with a kerchief on their heads, wearing a hideous house dress moo moo kind of thing. But then they came out with electric home hair dryers, with a strap on the unit they could wear like a back pack and it became totally "not done" to be seen with your hair in curlers!

We've really come a LONG way and thank Jebus for that!


----------



## ScarletBegonias

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Anon Pink said:


> Your younger than me so I don't know if you experienced a childhood with the Moms with their hair up in curlers with a kerchief on their heads, wearing a hideous house dress moo moo kind of thing. But then they came out with electric home hair dryers, with a strap on the unit they could wear like a back pack and it became totally "not done" to be seen with your hair in curlers!
> 
> We've really come a LONG way and thank Jebus for that!


This was my mother when I was a little girl but she NEVER went out of the house like that. 
My grandmother used to go run errands this way if they had a party to attend in the evening. I can still see her clear as day in my head


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## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



FrenchFry said:


> Without makeup, I'm sure she is clean and well groomed...
> 
> with makeup she doesn't look like she's been up for three days on a Jager bender. Makeup is awesome, seriously...dudes are missing out.


I haven't worn make-up in over 20 years now. I just decided at one point that I wasn't buying into the mask, and I would learn to like myself for who I was. If no one else liked it, well too bad.

No doubt in my mind that this decision has cost me big time. Turns out a lot of people don't like it when you aren't made up. It's not quite as shocking as wearing sweats to a fancy dress party, but not so far off the mark either.

Funny thing is, I think most of those women in the before/after shots look better without makeup. I find the porn styling to be plastic looking and kinda gross. I honestly don't get why it has such universal appeal, and why guys are always tripping over their tongues for it. 

But then I've never been very good at fitting in with social norms and expectations. When I did wear make-up it wasn't so much as to beautify, more the reverse, as I was into the heavy black eyeliner and extreme designs.


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## ScarletBegonias

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

OOOOH it would be so neat to do a thread of with and without makeup side by side pics of Tam Ladies!!


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## samyeagar

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



always_alone said:


> I haven't worn make-up in over 20 years now. I just decided at one point that I wasn't buying into the mask, and I would learn to like myself for who I was. If no one else liked it, well too bad.
> 
> No doubt in my mind that this decision has cost me big time. Turns out a lot of people don't like it when you aren't made up. It's not quite as shocking as wearing sweats to a fancy dress party, but not so far off the mark either.
> 
> Funny thing is, I think most of those women in the before/after shots look better without makeup. I find the porn styling to be plastic looking and kinda gross. I honestly don't get why it has such universal appeal, and why guys are always tripping over their tongues for it.
> 
> But then I've never been very good at fitting in with social norms and expectations. When I did wear make-up it wasn't so much as to beautify, more the reverse, as I was into the heavy black eyeliner and extreme designs.


I have seen my STBW in makeup exactly once...our first date. She has not worn it since then, and I am very glad. She is a red head, and I am glad that her freckles aren't covered up, the red in her eyelashes is such a gorgeous compliment to her blue eyes, oh she is just so beautiful.


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## Anon Pink

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



ScarletBegonias said:


> OOOOH it would be so neat to do a thread of with and without makeup side by side pics of Tam Ladies!!


I will totally cheat and just leave off lipstick and eye liner!


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## Deejo

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Faithful Wife said:


> I can wear make up and clothes, or I can go natural and schlubbing it. The people who are truly attracted to you will still be attracted to you.


That right there is the truth.


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## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



hawkeye said:


> 1) enough with the "real women" BS. Like I said earlier in this thread, you're doing the same kind of shaming, only in reverse. There is nothing less "real" about a thin woman than there is about a thicker woman.


Just to clarify, when talking about "real" women, the comparison isn't between fat and thin. Yes, women of all weights are real.

The comparison is between artificially constructed and real. So a representation that shows a woman with impossible proportions, or that is so digitally altered so as not to look like her real self, or that is so artfully styled and well lit so she appears flawless, is actually a fictional character or construct, not a real woman.


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## Created2Write

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

The two times I was most hit on in my life: in one I had just finished moving, had my hair pulled back into a messy, grimy bun and had absolutely no makeup on. I hadn't washed my face in days. I was dirty and sweaty from the move. I walked into the store wearing a day dress and sandals, and was very obviously hit on by a very attractive, well dressed guy. I couldn't believe that he was hitting on me when I looked like that. I was insanely flattered. 

The second, I was at work on Halloween. I was dressed as a greek goddess, with my hair curled and styled, my makeup done. The poor guy came in to the gym to cancel his membership, but changed his mind after a minute or so talking with me. lol. He practically ran from the gym, commenting on how my costume was very distracting and I should wear it everyday. rofl. 

So, it just goes to show, lots of makeup, no makeup at all...women will be just as desirable to some men without makeup as they are with makeup to others. When I wear makeup, it's either because I'm going to a party, going on a date with DH, or just feel like looking dolled up. I don't always wear it, and in fact, I like not having to worry about washing it off when I go to bed.


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## soulpotato

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Deejo said:


> She's a model telling people that modeling is a construct, and that models are subject to the same kinds of insecurity, and apparently the same kinds of criticism as everyone else, moreso because they are considered attractive. Tangled web. Based on everything that we've talked about here, I'd imagine some folks being angry or unable to see the message, because of the messenger.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM4Xe6Dlp0Y


That was interesting (love TedTalks). Indeed, image is very powerful. (And while she may be insecure, she still gets the perks of winning said genetic lottery, as she acknowledges. But winning doesn't automatically equal happiness in life...) I was actually approached about modeling once when I was a teenager, which kind of perplexed me. I said no. It just seemed like the path to misery to me, and even then, I felt and thought a lot of the things I do now.


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## soulpotato

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Deejo said:


> Do really apologize. I put in the 'not to put you on the spot' in the hopes of de-personalizing the question.


Thank you, that's very kind of you. I'm sorry I misunderstood you.



Deejo said:


> I think what bothers me from talking to my then GF, was that she would comment that I was the first man she knew who accepted her as she was. She outright told me that her ex husband and old boyfriends had no hesitation in critiquing her. Her ex husband told her that she was getting fat because her thighs touched. The woman was 5' 9" and maybe, maybe, 125 pounds.


That's just it - a woman's body is up for critique, like an object. People seem to forget it's actually a flesh and blood person they're picking apart, not some manufactured thing... 



Deejo said:


> The problem was what she chose to hold onto. What she held onto were the criticisms, not the compliments. In five years, she will still no doubt remember clearly and associate most closely with the unflattering things her ex said to her, not the genuine and loving compliments myself, or anyone else may give.
> 
> It's poison. And it seems like all of the truth, kind words, and compliments in the world can't undo the damage of what just a few harsh words can.


I was trying to find the words to express what I wanted to say to this, but then always_alone posted something really awesome:



always_alone said:


> This. This is what I've been trying to say on another thread on body image, but unsuccessfully. The negative message is reinforced and reinforced and reinforced, and when the first nice guy comes along, he's surprised that a few compliments isn't enough to shake out the years of reinforcing the negative.
> 
> You have to understand that it isn't "a few harsh words" that can't be erased by "all the compliments in the world". It's a few compliments that can't undo a lifetime of harsh. You may not believe that you really are the first to accept her for about she is, but she may very well be telling the truth.


I totally agree. I will say that although the damage can't be undone by the few compliments against the lifetime of harsh words and criticism, they can make _some_ difference. Even if it's smaller than one would like.


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## Caribbean Man

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



samyeagar said:


> I have seen my STBW in makeup exactly once...our first date. She has not worn it since then, and I am very glad. She is a red head, and I am glad that her freckles aren't covered up, the red in her eyelashes is such a gorgeous compliment to her blue eyes, oh she is just so beautiful.


In the 24 or 25 years that I've known my wife, I've NEVER seen her wear make up.Not even lipstick.
In my opinion, she looks most beautiful in the morning when she''s just awoken, hair all disheveled, but she's as cute and pretty as a baby, and after we've had sex and her skin is all flushed .

IMO,a woman who's confident about herself, and knows her worth is far more sexier than a porn star , live on set.

That's why I've often said that I love arrogant women. Arrogance presupposes deep self confidence.A certain amount of ,
" _I know who I am - ness..._." 
I'm not talking about b!tchy, that's insecure.


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## samyeagar

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Caribbean Man said:


> In the 24 or 25 years that I've known my wife, I've NEVER seen her wear make up.Not even lipstick.
> In my opinion, *she looks most beautiful in the morning *when she''s just awoken, hair all disheveled, but she's as cute and pretty as a baby, and after we've had sex and her skin is all flushed .
> 
> IMO,a woman who's confident about herself, and knows her worth is far more sexier than a porn star , live on set.
> 
> That's why I've often said that I love arrogant women. Arrogance presupposes deep self confidence.A certain amount of ,
> " _I know who I am - ness..._."
> I'm not talking about b!tchy, that's insecure.


I am usually up and out the door to work before she gets up, and there are some mornings when it's light enough out that I just watch her sleep for a few minutes in complete awe that the beautiful woman laying there is not only mine, but is completely in love with me.

That first date, she didn't have much makeup on, and at the time, I didn't even know she did because it was very subtle. Just a bit above her eyes, and a little on her cheeks. It wasn't until the next time I saw her that I realized, and noticed she looked even better.

Kissing her full, beautiful lips without any lipstick getting in the way...


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## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



soulpotato said:


> I will say that although the damage can't be undone by the few compliments against the lifetime of harsh words and criticism, they can make _some_ difference. Even if it's smaller than one would like.


Yes! I was thinking something similar. My bet is that she will remember the first person to really accept her fondly, and will cherish the way he made her feel. Even if it doesn't work out or even if she didn't know quite what to do with those positive feelings at the time.

I really don't want to give the impression that I think women are doomed to feelings of inadequacy. We most certainly aren't. 

But it can be a very tough slog.


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## soulpotato

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



always_alone said:


> I really don't want to give the impression that I think women are doomed to feelings of inadequacy. We most certainly aren't.
> 
> But it can be a very tough slog.


Oh no, I didn't think you were saying that, but you really captured the reality of how a lifetime of such negative messages stacks up against the later compliments and positive feedback of a loved one. You are right that it is tough. We can and do fight it, even if we might not "win" easily or come out of it without scars/injuries.


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## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Faithful Wife said:


> Well, they are your thoughts, afterall.


I was thinking about this some more, and have to say, I'm not entirely convinced it's true.

When I was young, I was completely oblivious to how I looked, and it was only through feedback from other people that I became aware of it. Moreso, it never occurred to me to judge other people on how they looked or that looks were something that should be judged.

I once spent about 8-9 months without mirrors, and I re-learned how to look *through* my eyes, instead of stepping outside of myself to view myself from a distance. During this period, it never occurred to me that I wasn't beautiful. I didn't think about my looks at all.

In so many ways, the negative body image thoughts aren't mine. Muffin tops, thunder thighs, tramp stamps, flat as a board, skank, none of these words are mine. I didn't come up with the idea that thighs ought not touch, boobs ought not sag, and the worst crime a woman can commit is not to be sexy. These all belong to the culture around me.

And yes, it is up to me to guard against them, to stop myself from internalizing them, analyzing them endlessly to see which ones belong to me and which ones don't, or comparing myself to others. But I think one of the reasons why correcting poor body image is so difficult is that so much of it comes from outside and everywhere, and pits individual self esteem against social norms and belonging.


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## norajane

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I think I have rock hard abs (under the fat) because I've been holding in my stomach when I walk into a room of people since I was 12. 

I believe I'm not the only woman who does that. Do men do this?


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## Caribbean Man

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



norajane said:


> I think I have rock hard abs (under the fat) because I've been holding in my stomach when I walk into a room of people since I was 12.
> 
> I believe I'm not the only woman who does that. Do men do this?


Nope.
That's because,
Society doesn't judge men by their physical appearance like they do , to women. 
Men are judged by their educational / financial accomplishments or lack thereof.


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## MaritimeGuy

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I find many women in the photo's with and without makeup often look better without. I can see that makeup can cover up issues however a healthy woman with colour in her cheeks from laughing or physical exertion, a sparkle in her eyes because she's interested in her surroundings and a nice smile does far more for me that any makeup job. 

I can imagine the women in porn have a lot of issues that manifest from low self esteem, drug use etc. they need to cover up.


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## Faithful Wife

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

always said: "*And yes, it is up to me to guard against them, to stop myself from internalizing them, analyzing them endlessly to see which ones belong to me and which ones don't, or comparing myself to others. But I think one of the reasons why correcting poor body image is so difficult is that so much of it comes from outside and everywhere, and pits individual self esteem against social norms and belonging*."

I'm not sure what to say about this since you have told us many times that your SO makes dispariging comments about you, doesn't compliment you, watches porn, goes on and on about other women and how hot they are (if they are porn star types), and makes exactly the kind of horrible statements you are referring to.

But I've chosen to never keep company with a man like that.

And therefore, I don't hear those messages that you are saying make you feel bad about yourself.

So maybe you can say it isn't your fault that these messages are out there, but you can choose the company you keep and which messages you listen to can't you? I am confused why you stay with someone who makes you feel this way. And I'm pretty sure you will come and try to tell me "it isn't him"...but you have many times already told us it IS him.

If you choose to stay with a man who holds these thoughts about women (the kinds of thoughts that you abhor) then to me, it seems like you are reinforcing to men (via your relationship) that this is ok.


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## greenfern

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



norajane said:


> I think I have rock hard abs (under the fat) because I've been holding in my stomach when I walk into a room of people since I was 12.
> 
> I believe I'm not the only woman who does that. Do men do this?


I had to laugh at this - even when I'm alone I can't relax my stomach. I'm sitting here in my office trying to do it and I can't! (unless I'm lying down, then its relaxed).


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## heartsbeating

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



FrenchFry said:


> It is literally part of some corporate guidelines for women to wear makeup to have a professional appearance.
> 
> If it's not part of corporate guidelines, it's become a tacit expectation under the heading of "polished, professional appearance" for women to wear some sort of makeup to work.


I wear makeup to work. I've always been a makeup type. Yes, it's a bit of a mask. I enjoy that though. I like that I can accentuate my features to suit a certain mood, ot even to help me look bright and sparkly when I'm actually tired. 

Most of my roles have been client-facing and reality is, appearance and presentation is part of that package. As you mentioned, makeup would be considered a standard part of a polished appearance.

On the weekends, my husband will comment that it's nice to see me without makeup. Other times during the week, he'll comment that my make-up looks nice. I've bought into the makeup illusion and couldn't imagine going to work without it. It's part of the daily outfit.


----------



## heartsbeating

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

With the comments about women being jealous, competitive, and it's relationship to beauty... a place I once worked, hands-on business owner, was previously a model. She was physically stunning and elegant. I remember she called a manager's meeting to ask why she experienced negative attitude from the staff. There were issues with motivation and working as a team. Silence fell. Her boyfriend (and business partner) was at this meeting, and suggested the staff were probably jealous of her appearance. The silence thickened.

I decided, since I'd only been there a couple of weeks, to open my big mouth. I shared that in the short time I'd been there, I noticed that her team were displaying signs of wanting a leader. I expressed how things were being run and what I felt needed to happen if she wanted things to change. This would include her being at the staff meetings, getting to know her team more, creating a place where people felt supported and motivated to share ideas... basically for her to lead the team and the culture.

The negativity had nothing to do with her appearance.


----------



## always_alone

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Faithful Wife said:


> So maybe you can say it isn't your fault that these messages are out there, but you can choose the company you keep and which messages you listen to can't you?


Yes, of course we choose the company we keep, but we do not choose the society that we are born in or what it values. And while this society will, no doubt, help boost and reinforce the self-image of some of its members, those who conform to its values, it will also ensure that those who don't conform are cast as outsiders.

Different people will get different messages based on who they are.

And yes, you're exactly right. I will come back and try to tell you that it's not my SO. All of these negative messages were instilled in me long before I even met him. From age 9 in fact. And one reason I chose him in the first place is that he is *better* than most men I've met in terms of respecting women. 

Please understand that some of the rage I express here is in direct response to the attitudes I see here on TAM, not what I hear at home.


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## SurpriseMyself

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I think a huge portion of this is societal expectations fueled by capitalism. 

How do you sell magazines to women? Tell them they must buy this issue because it has the 9 secrets to turn every guy's head. How do we sell clothes? By creating ads with the most attractive people, either gender, in those clothes, and then showing how cool and happy they are. 

Our culture is obsessed with looks because capitalism demands that people buy things. Many people can't just own any old car; their car represents them, so they have to have the car that says something about who they are. Own a Ford F250? You are a rugged man, a real American. Own a BMW? You have money and class. Own a Prius? You are care about the environment. Etc., etc. Same is true for the clothes you wear, the school your kids go to, where you go on vacation, where you live, how big your house is!

Everything is a competition, and we end up feeling that we've "won" when we are better looking than the next person. When people buy into this, that's when they get petty and judgmental.


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## Caribbean Man

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



ebp123 said:


> I think a huge portion of this is societal expectations fueled by capitalism.
> 
> How do you sell magazines to women? Tell them they must buy this issue because it has the 9 secrets to turn every guy's head. How do we sell clothes? By creating ads with the most attractive people, either gender, in those clothes, and then showing how cool and happy they are.
> 
> Our culture is obsessed with looks because capitalism demands that people buy things. Many people can't just own any old car; their car represents them, so they have to have the car that says something about who they are. Own a Ford F250? You are a rugged man, a real American. Own a BMW? You have money and class. Own a Prius? You are care about the environment. Etc., etc. Same is true for the clothes you wear, the school your kids go to, where you go on vacation, where you live, how big your house is!
> 
> Everything is a competition, and we end up feeling that we've "won" when we are better looking than the next person. When people buy into this, that's when they get petty and judgmental.


:iagree:
Perfectly , well said!


----------



## Cosmos

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Anon Pink said:


> My mother called them "peasant births" and she learned that term from her mother from Italy. Women who don't suffer during birth were said to be descended from peasants who had no choice but to work the fields until they delivered, then go right back to the fields.
> 
> Rather disgraceful lack of respect and blatant elitism...
> 
> How lucky that woman was though! And no one would blame a long laboring woman for being too out of shape to quickly deliver that baby!


I heard something similar from my late aunt. She told me that when she was a young nurse the criteria for the 'lying in' period after childbirth was 2 weeks for a lady and 1 week for a woman of 'inferior' class!


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## WyshIknew

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*

I'm sorry but I have to say this. Every time I see the title of this thread I grind my teeth.

It's who's.

Whose is a possessive form and means belonging to.


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## samyeagar

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



WyshIknew said:


> I'm sorry but I have to say this. Every time I see the title of this thread I grind my teeth.
> 
> It's who's.
> 
> Whose is a possessive form and means belonging to.


Or it could be 'responsibility'


----------



## WyshIknew

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



samyeagar said:


> Or it could be 'responsibility'


Yes, I did think of that. And it probably makes more sense to do that rather than change the first word.

Sorry, I know it is not germane to the thread but it just grated on my nerves.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



WyshIknew said:


> I'm sorry but I have to say this. Every time I see the title of this thread I grind my teeth.
> 
> It's who's.
> 
> Whose is a possessive form and means belonging to.


Fixeded.

And I do appreciate it.

Writing is important.


----------



## WyshIknew

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



Deejo said:


> Fixeded.
> 
> And I do appreciate it.
> 
> Writing is important.


Thanks for saving my teeth Deejo, 

I don't know why that sort of thing grates on me so much, especially considering my writing skills often leave a lot to be desired.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



WyshIknew said:


> Thanks for saving my teeth Deejo,
> 
> I don't know why that sort of thing grates on me so much, especially considering my writing skills often leave a lot to be desired.


Once it sticks out, you can't not see it.


----------



## SolidSnake

*Re: Whose responsible? Media? Men? Women?*



WyshIknew said:


> I'm sorry but I have to say this. Every time I see the title of this thread I grind my teeth.
> 
> It's who's.
> 
> Whose is a possessive form and means belonging to.


That doesn't bother me as much as the multitude on here who spell the word advice, advise! Its constant!


----------

