# Why they trade down when cheating



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

It occurred to me in reading yet another thread of a cheating spouse who clearly traded down and lost all, that the reason why they trade down is obvious:

People of good character do not cheat. All that is left are the people willing to cheat. And if they are willing to cheat, they are liars, excusemakers, and so on.

It is impossible to trade up while cheating.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

michzz i cant even start to answer the question

Every time i think about it different answer's spring into my head

To me its like the question 'how long is a piece of string'


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

It's nothing to do with the other person. They don't have to be 10 kinds of wonderful or even good looking. 

They just have to be not you. So, everyone fits the requirement.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Did that realization help you recover?
Did your wife come to that realization as well?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

MarriedDude said:


> It's nothing to do with the other person. They don't have to be 10 kinds of wonderful or even good looking.
> 
> They just have to be not you. So, everyone fits the requirement.


Sure waters down the requirements, and exposes the hostility.



ConanHub said:


> Did that realization help you recover?
> Did your wife come to that realization as well?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It shocked me how little she got for what she threw away all for.

I don't think she will ever fully realize how tragically stupidly she behaved. her life post-divorce has been a bizarre journey of being in a cult (literally) and thinking she can heal people with crystals. She has cynical "enlightened Light workers sucking out her money as she attends these workshops in exotic locations. 

All of this is to avoid personal responsibility for her crappy behavior.

I've held the course and both our kids have appreciated it and tell me so. They are older now (26 and 31), but they still want rational parents they can look up to. 

Their illusions about their mom have all been blown. They see her and worry if it is genetic that makes her behave so irrationally.


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

michzz said:


> It occurred to me in reading yet another thread of a cheating spouse who clearly traded down and lost all, that the reason why they trade down is obvious:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If one of the AP's is trading down, wouldn't that mean the other is trading up? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

thenub said:


> If one of the AP's is trading down, wouldn't that mean the other is trading up?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, each is trading down.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

thenub said:


> If one of the AP's is trading down, wouldn't that mean the other is trading up?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Trading a faithful spouse for a cheating piece of shyt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

michzz said:


> Sure waters down the requirements, and exposes the hostility.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I got to watch my dad plow through women...he married 5 times. Wasn't faithful to any of them. That has been my experience with infidelity...seeing these women (many were no prizes themselves) be simply replaced, discarded, it was terrible. He seemed to always move on without much thought -i can't recall ever seeing remorse.

He seems different now that he's much older. Less rash. he still does the same thing---plate spinning -probably seeing half a dozen women right now. But it looks to me like he's not doing it for the sex or the rush.....he's just lonely.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

michzz said:


> People of good character do not cheat. All that is left are the people willing to cheat. And if they are willing to cheat, they are liars, excusemakers, and so on.


Truer words never spoken. I'm a wayward so I'm not proclaiming to be a saint myself, but I've learned some harsh lessons in my past. The women who were willing to disregard the fact that I am married were all flawed, certainly not good wife material. 

I've been lied to about marital status, number of other guys they are hooking up with, drug use, and background (would have been nice to know she did porn before hand). Yet on the outside they all appeared as normal as pumpkin pie and well adjusted with decent careers. So I agree its basically pairing one liar with another, at least based on my experience.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

My ex-husband's AP's own daughters are barely speaking to her. Their father, her husband of about 30 years, died tragically in a car accident less than three years ago. Between then and September, 2014, when she met my then husband with whom she now lives, she lived with two other men, both of whom were "jerks" to her, all this according to my ex. He volunteered all this information - I didn't ask.

Real prize he's got, there. And not to be shallow, but she's three years older than I am, has partial dentures, and is about 60 pounds overweight (and he was always a fat shamer).


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> 'how long is a piece of string'


20 minutes.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> 20 minutes.


Oh so close

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t9n1uMQbgE

now you know why we are voting to come out of Europe :wink2:


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

G.J. said:


> Oh so close
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t9n1uMQbgE
> 
> now you know why we are voting to come out of Europe :wink2:


:laugh: Made ya think. Didn't I? 

p.s.: Some of you will be thinking about my answer all night long. >


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Not really much of a conundrum. People of a low moral character aren't much of a catch.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

TX-SC said:


> Not really much of a conundrum. People of a low moral character aren't much of a catch.


Or very broken. Or mentally ill. Or... lots of different reasons besides the obvious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Or very broken. Or mentally ill. Or... lots of different reasons besides the obvious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's also about the action - not just the sex but the thrill of it - lets be honest there must be an adrenaline rush when cheating - its forbidden - sin can be very intoxicating - addicting to many people - its when its time to pay the price that the fun ends - I think that is why so few APs stay together - once the humdrum life sets in they realize they have nothing and lets be honest two people who are cheaters don't exactly make the best candidates for a LTR with all its ups and downs - to weather the storms of life with dignity it takes strength and moral fortitude...two people without it will get blown away when the first storm comes along...


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## SoulCrushed16 (Feb 15, 2016)

MarriedDude said:


> michzz said:
> 
> 
> > Sure waters down the requirements, and exposes the hostility.
> ...


This is so sad. This is how my FIL is like. My H has seen this type of thing his entire life. He also has issues and we are currently not together. He is so broken so he's going to IC, of course his father thinks it's a waste of time. 

How were you able to cope with this? I'm just looking for some advice for him.


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## SoulCrushed16 (Feb 15, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> MattMatt said:
> 
> 
> > Or very broken. Or mentally ill. Or... lots of different reasons besides the obvious.
> ...


These pieces of crap then want to come when the fun is over and beg for a second chance. The grass is not always greener on the other side. I wish these idiots would realize that before hurting and destroying their families.


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## SoulCrushed16 (Feb 15, 2016)

Nomorebeans said:


> My ex-husband's AP's own daughters are barely speaking to her. Their father, her husband of about 30 years, died tragically in a car accident less than three years ago. Between then and September, 2014, when she met my then husband with whom she now lives, she lived with two other men, both of whom were "jerks" to her, all this according to my ex. He volunteered all this information - I didn't ask.
> 
> Real prize he's got, there. And not to be shallow, but she's three years older than I am, has partial dentures, and is about 60 pounds overweight (and he was always a fat shamer).


They always get with trash that they can't even take outside because they are ashamed of them. It's sad really. My "H" slept with this nasty trashy women (48 years old, he's 33, and I am 28). I'm not bad on the eyes in the least but I wonder why he chose that thing to sleep with.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

SoulCrushed16 said:


> These pieces of crap then want to come when the fun is over and beg for a second chance. The grass is not always greener on the other side. I wish these idiots would realize that before hurting and destroying their families.


Many want to have their fun and skip out on the bill....and leave the BS with the debt....


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*As far as my cheating wives are concerned, I greatly theorize that their cheating was for a threefold purpose: (1) the sheer thrill of doing something secretive and taboo, and (2) by participating in that lurid activity, it in essence brought to an end the emotional ties of the marriage that they were supposed to be a part of, and (3) to ultimately hurt their spouse when and if they ever discovered their sordid secret!

The affair partners of both wives, from a purely physical standpoint, were certainly nothing to write home about! Without exception, they were overweight, pot-gutted, greasy-haired, bearded, and generally just unattractive!

As an example, my RSXW's main out-of-town paramour, a C&W musician, who had a pot gut so large, that if he ever acquired an erection, well let's just say that he'd probably have to take someone's word for it! *
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

True, when two people who have cheated are left with one another, they realize all they've 'won' is another cheater. lol But...I don't care for the phrases 'trading up' trading down,' as it suggests that people are disposable and without personal value. Everyone has value, unfortunately, cheaters don't see their value...which is why they cheat. Cheating is often not about the relationship/marriage at all, but rather the cheater's internal turmoil and unrest that causes them to keep searching for something else to make them happy. I've been cheated on in an exclusive relationship before, and remember hearing through the grapevine that he was still cheating after we broke up. So, it had nothing to do with me or the relationship, which is often the case. Oops, didn't meant to go off on a tangent.


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## SoulCrushed16 (Feb 15, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *As far as my cheating wives are concerned, I greatly theorize that their cheating was for a threefold purpose: (1) the sheer thrill of doing something secretive and taboo, and (2) by participating in that lurid activity, it in essence brought to an end the emotional ties of the marriage that they were supposed to be a part of, and (3) to ultimately hurt their spouse when and if they ever discovered their sordid secret!
> 
> The affair partners of both wives, from a purely physical standpoint, were certainly nothing to write home about! Without exception, they were overweight, pot-gutted, greasy-haired, bearded, and generally just unattractive!
> 
> ...


LOL!!! Let me guess, she came home and begged for forgiveness??? I guess anyone who cheats just wants something that is easy to get. Finding someone who is attractive to cheat with must be hard work.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

SoulCrushed16 said:


> These pieces of crap then want to come when the fun is over and beg for a second chance. The grass is not always greener on the other side. I wish these idiots would realize that before hurting and destroying their families.


If only it were that easy. 

It was noticed that there were a number of instances in CWI where cheaters had suffered CSA.

One cheater was adamant this had never happened to them. 

But later acknowledged that a close male relation had sexually abused them .throughout their childhood.

This is not an excuse but it may in some cases be a factor in what caused some cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

SoulCrushed16 said:


> LOL!!! Let me guess, she came home and begged for forgiveness??? I guess anyone who cheats just wants something that is easy to get. Finding someone who is attractive to cheat with must be hard work.


*Not quite, @SoulCrushed16 ~ I actually found out about it months after a "wife-imposed" trial separation that had me dispatched to a city some 25 miles removed! 

She was busy juggling two different paramours concurrently, one in one part of Texas and one in yet another, who she drove down to see on her numerous but regularly scheduled "business trips", all while I was back at home and minding her horses out at the ranch, as well as her delinquent, stoned, goth, pothead kids! 

And while seeing these two horny louts individually, she always had a place to stay where she drove in to see them individually. Albeit their abodes, their country homes, a cruise ship, or a nice, luxurious four star hotel room nearby! Then she came back home and had sex with me ~ sometimes just mere hours from shagging them, to the point that I was so dupingly unaware that anything at all had even remotely happened between us!

Only by the grace of God, some cognitive personal sleuthing, and a semi-retired detective friend, did I find out the entire truth well into our divorce that she had filed for!

Needless to say that in Texas, a "no-fault" divorce state, could any of this be introduced as evidence! The cause was "irreconcilable differences," and with her money and me with none, she literally raked my a$$ over the coals with her "prenup!"*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SoulCrushed16 (Feb 15, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> SoulCrushed16 said:
> 
> 
> > LOL!!! Let me guess, she came home and begged for forgiveness??? I guess anyone who cheats just wants something that is easy to get. Finding someone who is attractive to cheat with must be hard work.
> ...


OMG! That is awful! I can't fathom how some of these people have no moral compasses. I hope she got hit by the Karma bus. I hope that you were able to find some happiness as well.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

SoulCrushed16 said:


> OMG! That is awful! I can't fathom how some of these people have no moral compasses. I hope she got hit by the Karma bus. I hope that you were able to find some happiness as well.


*Being out of her presence is happiness enough! She may still have her millions, but she won't ever receive "karma" until such time that she confronts God, or vice-versa, over her wanton misgivings!

Just thinking back on her wanton deception hurts the absolute worst!

It greatly makes me wonder how humans can come to treat each other that way!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

I realized the other day that my ex still refers to himself as my husband to other people (like our son's teachers), when it was he who left me for the OW he's with now. I realized this because he was asking me to email a teacher about setting up a parent/teacher conference, and he said, "Just say, 'My husband and I would like to talk with you about [DS] being recommended for Advanced History next year.'" I said, "OK, but that's not what you are anymore."

He's also fine with the fact that our son hasn't told any of his friends we're even separated, let alone divorced, and has said he wouldn't mind if he never told them.

That doesn't sound like someone who's so in love with his AP, he wants the world to know about her.

I hope she enjoys being snuck around town so that he can avoid running into any of our son's many friends or their parents. I wonder what it's like to realize your SO is ashamed of you, and to be reminded of that regularly? I feel no empathy for her whatsoever. And I never will.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

michzz said:


> It occurred to me in reading yet another thread of a cheating spouse who clearly traded down and lost all, that the reason why they trade down is obvious:
> 
> People of good character do not cheat. All that is left are the people willing to cheat. And if they are willing to cheat, they are liars, excusemakers, and so on.
> 
> It is impossible to trade up while cheating.


While I agree in theory, it really depends on what you mean by trading up/down. My XWW traded down in every sense of the word. I am more attractive, better shape, smarter, better educated, better career, more money, more confident/alpha, and was a great husband/father. The only thing I couldn't compete with was the thrill of an illicit relationship with her. Her AP traded up except for the moral issues, which are obviously a huge component of the trade. My XWW was better looking, better shape, and smarter than his wife and would do all the things in bed with him that his wife wouldn't. Of course, he chose to stay with his wife so maybe he thought my XWW was a step down? I don't really think about it these days other than to periodically laugh at the situation.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

michzz said:


> It occurred to me in reading yet another thread of a cheating spouse who clearly traded down and lost all, that the reason why they trade down is obvious:
> 
> People of good character do not cheat. All that is left are the people willing to cheat. And if they are willing to cheat, they are liars, excusemakers, and so on.
> 
> It is impossible to trade up while cheating.


There are all kinds of affairs.

The easiest kinds are ones of opportunity: someone is available and paying attention to you, so you go for it.

People that are available tend not to be super hot or desirable. Because if they were, they'd be taken, or chasing single people instead of married ones.

There are other kinds of affairs where you're just horny and get hit on by somebody hot. I've been there, and that's tough, but that's a totally different situation.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

My trading down comment incorporates more than physical attractiveness or finances. It includes the immorality of cheating too.

Choosing that route short-circuits the physical and financial considerations with an immoral component.

People can trade up, if they don't cheat. I'm not against divorce. Just do that first, then go looking for a new partner.


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## VirgenTecate (Jan 4, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> True, when two people who have cheated are left with one another, they realize all they've 'won' is another cheater. lol But...I don't care for the phrases 'trading up' trading down,' as it suggests that people are disposable and without personal value. Everyone has value, unfortunately, cheaters don't see their value...which is why they cheat. Cheating is often not about the relationship/marriage at all, but rather the cheater's internal turmoil and unrest that causes them to keep searching for something else to make them happy. I've been cheated on in an exclusive relationship before, and remember hearing through the grapevine that he was still cheating after we broke up. So, it had nothing to do with me or the relationship, which is often the case. Oops, didn't meant to go off on a tangent.


No, it was all beautifully said. I particurally like how you talk about value. A lot of times we focus on material losses and gains with cheating. But we still have our dignity. They cannot see theirs


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

A cheater has zero value as a mate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> A cheater has zero value as a mate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bad breeding material ...maybe theres a cheat Gene


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

VirgenTecate said:


> No, it was all beautifully said. I particurally like how you talk about value. A lot of times we focus on material losses and gains with cheating. But we still have our dignity. They cannot see theirs


Agree! Granted, if someone cheats on you, they aren't bringing value to your life, but they themselves have value, and when people who have been cheated on talk about their exes in that way, it's because they haven't healed from the situation. Once we move on after being cheated on, and we heal...we no longer view the person who betrayed us as lesser than, we view ourselves as just being better off without that toxic behavior. Just new ways to look at common problems, I guess.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

michzz said:


> My trading up comment incorporates more than physical attractiveness or finances. It includes the immorality of cheating too.
> 
> Choosing that route short-circuits the physical and financial considerations with an immoral component.
> 
> People can trade up, if they don't cheat. I'm not against divorce. Just do that first, then go looking for a new partner.


This is interesting. I think trading up or down depends on the point of view, context, and what a person values.

I do agree with you Michzz but to a cheater, is the immoral component really a factor or a consideration…seen as a negative? If a cheater is cheating with another cheater, (both people being broken in the same place), the immoral component of the other must be seen as some sort of twisted positive characteristic that allows them to continue. It could also be that the negative component in each of them cancels out and all that’s left is physical attractiveness, finances, or how the other makes them feel about themselves.

To a moral person of integrity, that immoral component is a trade down, but to a cheater, it is essential and necessary to achieve their goals. If it wasn't present, there would be no cheating between them.

In my case, because of my value system and moral compass, I definitely feel that my XWW affaired down. In her mind, XWW must have thought she was trading up. POSom was several years younger than me, a little taller, and decent looking and he told her he owned his own business. The truth is he was basically unemployed and counted on his wife to pay most of the bills. Because of that, he had plenty of spare time to schmooze my XWW. He also had a very carefree attitude because he didn’t have any financial responsibilities. 

By contrast, I am a few years older, over 6’ tall, in better physical shape than POSom, I think I am decent looking. I do have a career and work 45-50 hours a week, but also make 6 times his income...and I don't cheat. I think availability is what attracted XWW to POSom. My XWW’s life was similar to his in that I paid all the bills that allowed for her comfortable life so she was free during the day to run around and have fun, shopping trips, lunches with her besties, and unfortunately, cheating. 

POSom ended up dumping XWW right before our divorce was final and right after his was final. My XWW was a definite trade up in terms of looks, and because I was paying for her, she was hot, cheap fun. Now that he had lost the financial support of his marriage, XWW was no longer cheap fun for him. Supporting her would not be possible. Last I heard, POSom was dating some doctors XW.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

G.J. said:


> Bad breeding material ...maybe theres a cheat Gene


I don't know if there is a genetic element to this behavior but I feel it is, at very least, a learned behavior.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Women with this gene are more likely to cheat, research suggests - ScienceAlert

Well blow me

That dam little vole


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

G.J. said:


> Women with this gene are more likely to cheat, research suggests - ScienceAlert
> 
> Well blow me
> 
> That dam little vole


That's does it. From now on I'm asking to see the results of their STD and Gene test! :banned2:


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## SoulCrushed16 (Feb 15, 2016)

Decimated said:


> michzz said:
> 
> 
> > My trading up comment incorporates more than physical attractiveness or finances. It includes the immorality of cheating too.
> ...


Talk about the karma bus taking her out. Serves her right. Is she alone? Does she want you back?


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## SoulCrushed16 (Feb 15, 2016)

Decimated said:


> G.J. said:
> 
> 
> > Bad breeding material ...maybe theres a cheat Gene
> ...


I couldn't agree with you more. My H lacks a moral compass and this is something he learned from his father. His father went through women like they were a pair of shoes not to mention that he is on his 3rd marriage and cheating on her too with an Ex. I think he stays with her because she will take him to the cleaners if they divorced. Anyway, my H has been around this behavior all of his life (his father used to also beat his women) my H would never lay a hand on me (my dad would murder him) but it's not to say that he is emotionally and mentally abusive. The stories he used to tell me about his father made me Ill.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I think the reason they choose the person they do is as simple as, "we can't help who we are attracted to".


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

SoulCrushed16 said:


> They always get with trash that they can't even take outside because they are ashamed of them. It's sad really. My "H" slept with this nasty trashy women (48 years old, he's 33, and I am 28). I'm not bad on the eyes in the least but I wonder why he chose that thing to sleep with.


Because she does things with him that you don't. Maybe she uses a strap-on during sex into your H while's he's bent over eating Jack in The Box tacos.

Never know.

Sex is different with different people. A hot chick can be a ZERO in bed.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TaDor said:


> Because she does things with him that you don't. Maybe she uses a strap-on during sex into your H while's he's bent over eating Jack in The Box tacos.
> 
> Never know.
> 
> Sex is different with different people. A hot chick can be a ZERO in bed.


Maybe she was hung.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SoulCrushed16 (Feb 15, 2016)

TaDor said:


> SoulCrushed16 said:
> 
> 
> > They always get with trash that they can't even take outside because they are ashamed of them. It's sad really. My "H" slept with this nasty trashy women (48 years old, he's 33, and I am 28). I'm not bad on the eyes in the least but I wonder why he chose that thing to sleep with.
> ...


LOL!! I hope not. That's creepy.
When I was pregnant with my now 5 month old we stopped having sex as the doctor forbade it ( I had a horrible pregnancy btw). So he decided to step out on me. Before that our sex life was good. She got super sprung and fell "in love" with. She then became a psycho B1tch and started stalking me as if I was the one who fvcked her. He wants nothing to do with her and I want nothing to do with him. She really thought she had a chance. Had to get an RO out on her a$$. B1tch be trippin. Women who cheat with married men really need to get some morals and same with men.


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## SoulCrushed16 (Feb 15, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> TaDor said:
> 
> 
> > Because she does things with him that you don't. Maybe she uses a strap-on during sex into your H while's he's bent over eating Jack in The Box tacos.
> ...


LOL!


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Wait...hard or soft tacos? :laugh:

It's possible, @SoulCrushed16, she thought he was her's and she was just protecting the lurv she had with him by trying to get rid of the "interloper", you, in her relationship. 

In any case, best you find a man you can be happy with and trust.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Hey now! There are a lot of men who like being taken by a woman with a strap-on. Doesn't make them gay. Each their own what two consenting adults do.

The issue of course, cheating on the SO. But there are things people may do with other people that they wouldn't or couldn't with their SOs. 

Look at prostitutes, women in porn or there for a one-night, they are treated rougher, more bruises and maybe anal because they are having sex with an object, not someone they care about.

Of course, having an affair with a co-worker or whatever, vs. prostitutes are two different things.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> True, when two people who have cheated are left with one another, they realize all they've 'won' is another cheater. lol But...I don't care for the phrases 'trading up' trading down,' as it suggests that people are disposable and without personal value. Everyone has value, unfortunately, cheaters don't see their value...which is why they cheat. *Cheating is often not about the relationship/marriage at all, but rather the cheater's internal turmoil and unrest that causes them to keep searching for something else to make them happy.* I've been cheated on in an exclusive relationship before, and remember hearing through the grapevine that he was still cheating after we broke up. So, it had nothing to do with me or the relationship, which is often the case. Oops, didn't meant to go off on a tangent.



I think this observation is key.

Maybe 'lower graded people' are giving more happiness to a higher graded person? Maybe because they can upgrade that way? I think of evolutionary biology here.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I think this observation is key.
> 
> Maybe 'lower graded people' are giving more happiness to a higher graded person? Maybe because they can upgrade that way? I think of evolutionary biology here.


Interesting point. My first impression reading this was that if the AP is trading up, they are likely fawning all over the wayward. They may be placing them so high on a pedestal they are able to rebuild their self esteem. 

If that is the case, the relationship won't last long.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

One thing about "trading down" - is that it maybe more about the sex, so there won't be a long term?

When people saw the pics of the AP my WW was with, they were like "him? ugh." - even thou he wasn't even half my age - he didn't look so good.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I think this observation is key.
> 
> Maybe 'lower graded people' are giving more happiness to a higher graded person? Maybe because they can upgrade that way? I think of evolutionary biology here.


No one is really 'lower grade,' these are just things that betrayed people tell themselves to feel better, if at all possible, about being cheated on. But, many people who cheat with people who others may perceive as 'lower grade' than the spouse they're with, are 'chosen' by the WS because they themselves don't feel that they deserve better. I have known talented, successful men and women, who leave really high quality people for drug addicts, people who are chronically unemployed, and abusive. The conclusion I have come to in those scenarios, is that the WS feels they don't deserve the high quality spouse, but rather deserve someone who treats them poorly. This usually stems from childhoods that they never reconciled.


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## lisamaree (Nov 2, 2014)

I think it's because the OM or OW gives the WS "power". The girl my husband had an EA with was not only less physically attractive than myself but she also was going nowhere in life. I have a career, busy with our two children, etc. meanwhile she has no kids, no career - and upon meeting her once (coworkers) she was dumber than a door nail. The only reason I can come up with that my husband ran to her with our marital problems and began some sort of blossoming relationship is because she was so desperate that she would do anything he told her to and accept all of his opinions with no challenge.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

lisamaree said:


> I think it's because the OM or OW gives the WS "power". The girl my husband had an EA with was not only less physically attractive than myself but she also was going nowhere in life. I have a career, busy with our two children, etc. meanwhile she has no kids, no career - and upon meeting her once (coworkers) she was dumber than a door nail. The only reason I can come up with that my husband ran to her with our marital problems and began some sort of blossoming relationship is because she was so desperate that she would do anything he told her to and accept all of his opinions with no challenge.


Yea, I think this could be true, too. That the WS wants to feel superior and often times will choose an OM/OW who allows them to feel that way. It's largely though something lacking in themselves, that propels the affair to begin with. Many people who have been betrayed, blame themselves, but nine times out of ten, the WS cheats again and again on/with others, after they divorce their BS. That is how you know that it wasn't the marriage that motivated the affair.


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## SoulCrushed16 (Feb 15, 2016)

lisamaree said:


> I think it's because the OM or OW gives the WS "power". The girl my husband had an EA with was not only less physically attractive than myself but she also was going nowhere in life. I have a career, busy with our two children, etc. meanwhile she has no kids, no career - and upon meeting her once (coworkers) she was dumber than a door nail. The only reason I can come up with that my husband ran to her with our marital problems and began some sort of blossoming relationship is because she was so desperate that she would do anything he told her to and accept all of his opinions with no challenge.


It's like we have the same story except my H screwed a woman nearly twice my age (I'm 28, hubby is 33, and OM 48). This woman really looks physically ill (botched boob job, works at a bar). And she also everything that my H told her and was absolutely no challenge. Except he dumped her before we got married and I had no idea that he was cheating until we were married. She contacted me and outed everything and told me I had no right to him. Lol! We have a 5 months old. Men, I tell ya.


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## SoulCrushed16 (Feb 15, 2016)

TaDor said:


> One thing about "trading down" - is that it maybe more about the sex, so there won't be a long term?
> 
> When people saw the pics of the AP my WW was with, they were like "him? ugh." - even thou he wasn't even half my age - he didn't look so good.


Easier conquest for sure. But people who choose to cheat have a very big pool of participants to choose from, why not someone a tad attractive?? Just bizarre.


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## SoulCrushed16 (Feb 15, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> See_Listen_Love said:
> 
> 
> > I think this observation is key.
> ...


This is very interesting and a great point: reminds me of my H. But I always wonder why they come back. I mean I know that they come to the conclusion that the "grass isn't always greener" but to want to come back to something you left makes no sense to me. It's very selfish.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

The looks don't really matter. Hell, a woman I meet & had sex with, was considered a hottie: tall, slim, had a great set of fake DDs, guys always checking her out - but she was lame in bed and had emotional issues I wasn't going to touch. Really, after one night in bed with this "hot chick" - I had trouble getting wood the 2nd night. I was done with her. Two weeks later I meet future wife, who is an A-cup, not as successful - but we seemed to fit, and has things on my "NOT GIRLFRIEND MATERIAL" check list... but I feel in love with her.

Even after all the pain and destruction of betrayal, my wayward. She can get me hard... even if we're not trying to have sex.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

And there is the, "we can't help who we are attracted to" part. It's a physical and emotional reaction with sometimes seemingly little reason.

There are a couple of women I know who just do it for me, but either they are out of my league in education or money. Almost immediately, when they are in a room with me, my brain flips a switch that I don't control. I can only control my reactions.

There was a woman I dated for a time years ago. I said recently in another thread that she was ten years older. After that post, I remembered. She was 50 or more and I was a little over 30, maybe up to 35. I just know the age gap was more than 10 years. 

She wasn't that attractive. She didn't have money. She was someone who was willing and I was needy. No, I didn't want to go there. I was encouraged for months. I was single, so there is no issue there. There is an old saying, "Any port in a storm". I don't mean any input. I mean our standards may go down under certain circumstances and that person may not be suitable for marriage or long term dating. 

So, to me, it has more to do with what she was giving him that you could not or did not. I don't think that is sex, thought that might be a component. That doesn't mean you weren't trying. If you were trying, he wasn't receptive or didn't get the message for some reason.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

SoulCrushed16 said:


> Easier conquest for sure. But people who choose to cheat have a very big pool of participants to choose from, why not someone a tad attractive?? Just bizarre.


*At least "Pseodospeaking" for my RSXW, I believe that the pool of available, horny, unattractive, lecherous people, far exceeds the pool of attractive ones ~ I think that it's academically referred to as the Law of Supply and Demand!

At least it was in her case!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> No one is really 'lower grade,'


Ofcourse not, I personnally have total different values than the 'status' people, but in the eyes of more materialistic people the higher/lower grade characterization is common. Maybe other phrasing should be used.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

SoulCrushed16 said:


> Talk about the karma bus taking her out. Serves her right. Is she alone? Does she want you back?


For my XWW, a ride on the Karma bus includes; being free to date anyone you want, going out partying with no responsibilities, alimony paying for her condo, new car, and all her other expenses, and still only having to work part time for disposable money. Where do I get a ticket? Sure, she lost her boyfriend but i'm betting she has a gaggle of them chasing her now.

I refuse to speak to her but I doubt she's alone. I know she joined 3 different dating sites within a couple weeks of moving out and was inundated with messages. She's an extremely attractive woman with a giant hidden flaw. She has a talent for lying and compartmentalization. The guys that fall for her charms will never suspect her past and the evil darkness lurking within. 

I also doubt that she wants me back. Even if she did, she would never risk rejection by contacting me about anything other than the children. I would say that she's living it up now. This is her chance to be 20 again and i'm sure she is addicted to all the attention. Being married, in her mind is repressive and just not exciting. I also think she understands that the damage she created was far to great to repair. It's easier and more fun for her to just keep running.


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## SoulCrushed16 (Feb 15, 2016)

Decimated said:


> SoulCrushed16 said:
> 
> 
> > Talk about the karma bus taking her out. Serves her right. Is she alone? Does she want you back?
> ...


Oh my!! I guess she is the exception then. How disgusting. I do hope your children don't pick up on that type of behavior. Also, just because she's attractive doesn't make her any better than you. So she threw away her family to be "20" again?? ( I am in my 20s and it is not what it is cracked up to be) you still have responsibilities that can't be avoided. The money that she is spending can be used for the children (college fund, school supplies, activities etc...) not for partying and certainly not to take care of her "boyfriends". But what goes around comes around Decimated. She will have her ride on the karma bus. All cheaters do!! Wait until she has to go and get tested for some nasty STD.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Decimated said:


> For my XWW, a ride on the Karma bus includes; being free to date anyone you want, going out partying with no responsibilities, alimony paying for her condo, new car, and all her other expenses, and still only having to work part time for disposable money. Where do I get a ticket? Sure, she lost her boyfriend but i'm betting she has a gaggle of them chasing her now.
> 
> I refuse to speak to her but I doubt she's alone. I know she joined 3 different dating sites within a couple weeks of moving out and was inundated with messages. She's an extremely attractive woman with a giant hidden flaw. She has a talent for lying and compartmentalization. The guys that fall for her charms will never suspect her past and the evil darkness lurking within.
> 
> I also doubt that she wants me back. Even if she did, she would never risk rejection by contacting me about anything other than the children. I would say that she's living it up now. This is her chance to be 20 again and i'm sure she is addicted to all the attention. Being married, in her mind is repressive and just not exciting. I also think she understands that the damage she created was far to great to repair. It's easier and more fun for her to just keep running.


For how much longer are you on the hook for alimony?


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> For how much longer are you on the hook for alimony?


2 years of alimony left. 

Also, my XWW spends very little, if any of the CS on our kids. My son will be 18 in a couple months, but my daughter is only 15 so I will be paying CS for a few more years. The good news is that they both want to live with me full time. They are sick of 50/50 and have been telling me this for quite a while. They are to afraid to tell her for fear of her reaction. If they gather the courage to tell her, my XWW's monthly income will drop by at approximately 25% immediately :grin2:


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Decimated said:


> 2 years of alimony left.
> 
> Also, my XWW spends very little, if any of the CS on our kids. My son will be 18 in a couple months, but my daughter is only 15 so I will be paying CS for a few more years. The good news is that they both want to live with me full time. They are sick of 50/50 and have been telling me this for quite a while. They are to afraid to tell her for fear of her reaction. If they gather the courage to tell her, my XWW's monthly income will drop by at approximately 25% immediately :grin2:


I'm thinking it's time for a call to your attorney.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> I'm thinking it's time for a call to your attorney.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's easier than that where I live. Here you can opt out of friend of the court, which we did. If the kids don't go there, I don't send the money.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Decimated said:


> For my XWW, a ride on the Karma bus includes; being free to date anyone you want, going out partying with no responsibilities, alimony paying for her condo, new car, and all her other expenses, and still only having to work part time for disposable money. Where do I get a ticket? Sure, she lost her boyfriend but i'm betting she has a gaggle of them chasing her now.
> 
> I refuse to speak to her but I doubt she's alone. I know she joined 3 different dating sites within a couple weeks of moving out and was inundated with messages. She's an extremely attractive woman with a giant hidden flaw. She has a talent for lying and compartmentalization. The guys that fall for her charms will never suspect her past and the evil darkness lurking within.
> 
> I also doubt that she wants me back. Even if she did, she would never risk rejection by contacting me about anything other than the children. I would say that she's living it up now. This is her chance to be 20 again and i'm sure she is addicted to all the attention. Being married, in her mind is repressive and just not exciting. I also think she understands that the damage she created was far to great to repair. It's easier and more fun for her to just keep running.


Similar for my ex wife, although we had no kids together, and were a lot younger.

She wanted to be 20 again... And just never stopped. And she was and still is very beautiful and dated a lot -- but I ran into her last summer and let me tell you it was painful. She was at a dressy event in a very tight dress that she no longer had the shape to pull off, hanging out with an obviously single 20 something girl. They were trolling for guys, and you could tell my ex was thinking she was still 20. Even though she was still beautiful for a 40 year old... It was painful to see.

And there I was with my wife, who honestly does look 30 instead of almost 40, surrounded by friends, and had to go home early to relieve the babysitter. I had friends, family, children, and a longtime marriage.

She had nothing and still was trying to be 20, chasing some fantasy.

Karma's a *****.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Successful, happy, mature people do not desire to become someone else's plan B, to be "on-call" whenever the AP can sneak out for a rendezvous. AP know this, so they deceive their partners with lines about pending divorce, separations, he/she doesn't love me anymore, or my personal favorite - open marriage.
People looking to have affairs know they have to find someone who will believe their BS lies, and that is usually not top tier material.

My former GF had a track record of first expressing an interest in artistic types, then taking on a project to help "repair" them as they were often drunks/drug addicts, in low paying menial jobs, had poor attitudes, and often abandoned their wives and kids. To them, she was the golden apple on the tree, as I was frequently away but still providing her with all living expenses/cars/mortgage, etc. And it was a big bonus when they got to sleep with her too. I guess she though her magic puzzy would transform them and fix their problems.
It would take her awhile to realize that, after some initial success, they would be back on drugs, drinking alot, no job, not taking care of kids/family etc. Or they would recover, find huge success, then leave her behind. Musicians, comedians, and radio DJs were frequent projects.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

You know, top tier can mean many things. I know some folks who have good jobs, but the character of a jackal. Others, have little money and are filled with great character traits. You just can't tell a book by it's cover.


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## SoulCrushed16 (Feb 15, 2016)

marduk said:


> Decimated said:
> 
> 
> > For my XWW, a ride on the Karma bus includes; being free to date anyone you want, going out partying with no responsibilities, alimony paying for her condo, new car, and all her other expenses, and still only having to work part time for disposable money. Where do I get a ticket? Sure, she lost her boyfriend but i'm betting she has a gaggle of them chasing her now.
> ...


You traded Wayyyy up!! Women like you ExW always believe that their looks will last forever, it's a sad sight to see. To us women, you can spot a woman with low morals from a mile away. She won't be beautiful forever and at some point she will see all of the wasted years she has spent on chasing a dream that will never be. You got EVERYTHING that you deserve (minus ExW) and then some. I love hearing about HEAs from BSs. I hope mine will turn out good too.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> You know, top tier can mean many things. I know some folks who have good jobs, but the character of a jackal. Others, have little money and are filled with great character traits. You just can't tell a book by it's cover.


Anyone who would entertain the idea of 2 married people cheating with each other is not a top-tier person. Serious flaws!


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## SoulCrushed16 (Feb 15, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> You know, top tier can mean many things. I know some folks who have good jobs, but the character of a jackal. Others, have little money and are filled with great character traits. You just can't tell a book by it's cover.


Very true.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

My ex did not trade down. OM was wealthier, more successful and better looking than me.


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## SoulCrushed16 (Feb 15, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> My ex did not trade down. OM was wealthier, more successful and better looking than me.


That maybe the case Bandit (btw, I think you always give great advice) but how long will that last? He'll trade her in for a younger and shinier model soon enough. Two cheaters can't last. They started off with a lie. I hope you traded up from that shallow human being.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

SoulCrushed16 said:


> That maybe the case Bandit (btw, I think you always give great advice) but how long will that last? He'll trade her in for a younger and shinier model soon enough. Two cheaters can't last. They started off with a lie. I hope you traded up from that shallow human being.


It didn't last. It ended as soon as it began. It was over four years ago. I told his wife and it ended. 

I'm divorced. No, I did not trade up. I live alone.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> It didn't last. It ended as soon as it began. It was over four years ago. I told his wife and it ended.


Doesn't sound like your ex traded up at all.



bandit.45 said:


> I'm divorced. No, I did not trade up. I live alone.


Dude. You divested yourself of a serial cheat.

It doesn't matter that you live alone... you STILL traded up.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Doesn't sound like your ex traded up at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seems like the kind of guy a good woman would love to have in her life. No? I think so.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> Dude. You divested yourself of a serial cheat.
> 
> It doesn't matter that you live alone... you STILL traded up.


Absolutely agree on this one.

Living alone is trading up up compared to living with a cheater.


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## always_hopefull (Aug 11, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> My ex did not trade down. OM was wealthier, more successful and better looking than me.


Yes, she did trade down. Looks and money can both fade, true character is enriched with passing time. She went from a man to be respected to a low life who cares little for others, unless they are of use to him. 

While you may be "alone", you have integrity, respect and an opportunity to live a full life without the worry of betrayal, which can effect your health, both physically and mentally. So I, in my humble internet opinion, I whole heatedly believe you traded up in life.

ETA; not all women judge a man on looks and wallet alone, I myself assess a potential partner based primarily on character. Unfortunately there are fewer of those men around and are therefore far more valuable.


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## higgsb (Apr 4, 2016)

My wife traded down in some respects and traded up in other respects. Her POS AP is a short order cook, high school dropout, dead-beat dad and a convicted felon. I'm a teacher, PhD., give all my wages for my kids and have a clean record. On the other hand, the guy is 2 years younger than her (so 15 years younger than me) and he looks quite fit (they met at the gym we went to) although I am two inches taller than he is. There must some trading up going on.

Here is another issue: things affair partners do with each other that they don't do with their spouses. That bothers me more than the trading up or down. 

From the texts that I discovered, my wife regularly performed oral sex on the guy and her AP never used a condom. She never gave me head up to that point, although I insisted after D-Day and she complied but only once and there was no real joy in it for her. Also, after the birth of our second daughter, she wanted me to get a vasectomy and when I refused, she insisted that I use condoms. After D-Day, I stopped using condoms, which was stupid because now she's pregnant. She says its my fault she's pregnant since I refused to use condoms but I say that decision was a reaction to her having unprotected sex with her POS AP.

She also says that I got her pregnant to punish her and I deny it but I have to admit, deep down in some dark crevice of my soul, it was to either claim her as mine or fck her life up. I don't know.

I do know that I'm going to Costa Rica and leaving her pregnant and with two kids and she just got her "Dream Job" at a VA hospital so if I was looking to punish, I did a pretty good job.

I know somebody is going to say: you're really only punishing your kids but honestly, I feel so much better now that she's pregnant!


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I think they are all different and trade for different reasons than just up or down. So as to minimize pain, we, the ones left behind, like to imagine they traded down and are struggling. They'd like to imagine us the same, since their reasons for leaving were justified to them. Either way, the best we can do is what we are doing today. It's all we have. Today, that is.

ETA: There are other possibilities, too.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

They normally trade down in the overall, not in all the particulers. Usually for men this involves a lack of physical affection. So the only thing he considers is the physical affection. There are a lot of other reasons why such as a lack of appreciation but this reason holds up. When the reality of building a real full time relationship sets in all hell breaks loose. 

Perhaps a female poster can post the why from a female POV.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

michzz said:


> It occurred to me in reading yet another thread of a cheating spouse who clearly traded down and lost all, that the reason why they trade down is obvious:
> 
> People of good character do not cheat. All that is left are the people willing to cheat. And if they are willing to cheat, they are liars, excusemakers, and so on.
> 
> It is impossible to trade up while cheating.


Depends on your perspective - in my ex WS's mind she had clearly traded up with a banker when she cheated on her ex husband and a senior manager when she cheated on me. Both white collar (what i was when I met her; before I was made redundant and eventually turned to driving for a living). Prior to all of this, before my time, she bonked her best girlfriends' bi-polar / petty crim boyfriend. Must have liked the 'bad boy' vibe. So if if status is applied based on income, job title, sex appeal etc, then my ex traded up and down.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

PS - Most of the time 'character' is fluid IMHO


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Horizon said:


> PS - Most of the time 'character' is fluid IMHO


I was just thinking about this today, but could not have put it into words. 

I do agree it depends on how much we think we have discovered something we think is going to make us happy or achieve our hidden or undiscovered goals. 

Hidden because we think we can change someone if they are not exactly what we want. 

Undiscovered because sometimes we experience something we could only imagine before and find it's our new hearts desire or goal in life and then we go for it and leave all else behind. 

Maybe that is the key to recovery? Try new things and find new goals, because the old ones didn't work? Don't know. Sometimes we don't have the ability anymore.


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