# Meeting "Walk Aways"



## Shoto1984

I've had some first and second dates recently with (what turned out to be) walk away spouses. These are people who walked away from their marriages (with kids) because they "just weren't happy" or "wasn't feeling fulfilled" or "just wasn't in love anymore" etc. As someone who's ex destroyed our family, I probably predictably, am having a hard time not having negative feelings when I hear this. I can't imagine myself with someone who has done this nor do I feel like taking a chance on someone who has shown this ability.

I'm curious about the perspective of others who have been in similar situations. How much does this kind of history matter to you? Why does it matter more or less than other possible flaws?


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## mcquestion

Perhaps those are just trite summaries suitable for 1st or 2nd dates? Actual reasons for divorce are usually complex.

Are they ‘walk aways’ in the sense that the husband didn’t know what hit him? Blindsided? Maybe ask a follow up question about if they tried counseling, how long, etc? Yes, I would be wary of someone that woke up one day and decide to toss away a long marriage for selfish or flimsy reasons.

What rationales for a divorce would be acceptable? Only if the husband had cheated or there was domestic violence?


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## Sammy64

I meet a lady online. Hit it off good so we went out to dinner. She told me during dinner that she had 2 affairs and was still married.. I politely excused myself to go to the bathroom and NEVER returned... She has sent a few texts but never reply back.. and have removed myself from OLD for awhile.


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## TheGoodGuy

Shoto1984 said:


> I've had some first and second dates recently with (what turned out to be) walk away spouses. These are people who walked away from their marriages (with kids) because they "just weren't happy" or "wasn't feeling fulfilled" or "just wasn't in love anymore" etc. As someone who's ex destroyed our family, I probably predictably, am having a hard time not having negative feelings when I hear this. I can't imagine myself with someone who has done this nor do I feel like taking a chance on someone who has shown this ability.
> 
> I'm curious about the perspective of others who have been in similar situations. How much does this kind of history matter to you? Why does it matter more or less than other possible flaws?


I think it's perfectly normal that you're having those feelings about it, since you've been on the receiving end. 




mcquestion said:


> Perhaps those are just trite summaries suitable for 1st or 2nd dates? Actual reasons for divorce are usually complex.
> 
> Are they ‘walk aways’ in the sense that the husband didn’t know what hit him? Blindsided? Maybe ask a follow up question about if they tried counseling, how long, etc? Yes, I would be wary of someone that woke up one day and decide to toss away a long marriage for selfish or flimsy reasons.
> 
> What rationales for a divorce would be acceptable? Only if the husband had cheated or there was domestic violence?


 I think MCQ makes a good point that perhaps there is more to the story. However, I'm guessing those that are glad they walked away will have no problem rewriting history at least a little bit to make it look justified.


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## TheGoodGuy

Sammy64 said:


> I meet a lady online. Hit it off good so we went out to dinner. She told me during dinner that she had 2 affairs and was still married.. I politely excused myself to go to the bathroom and NEVER returned... She has sent a few texts but never reply back.. and have removed myself from OLD for awhile.


Bahaha! Good response! :grin2:


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## MRR

Exactly, what WOULD be acceptable? Only infedility or abuse on the part of the husband? 

Just curious. I have had the same situation. 

Met a woman on match back in about April. She was basically a walk away wife though there were reasons maybe they should not have been married. Husband possibly interested in men? Things that came up in conversation after a couple glasses of wine. In any case it was clear she was not attracted and decided in her late 30s she did not want to live her life unhappy; same reasons MY wife gave me (other than the bi sexual thing) and now my ex is regretting it. Lots of back and forth on this. We became FWBs and it has come up in my mind whether or not i could be serious about her. Could she get bored with me (if we had a committed relationship)? Yes, I think in this case very possible. 

Also met a woman who came across as a very negative person, even while smiling and laughing with me and joking about hating men but loving them at the same time. Then it came up that she is divorced b/c she cheated on her husband. She had an excuse for it of course but no thanks.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I really wouldn't want to get into the years and years I tried to fix things without his meeting my needs and what I tried, for how long, how he made me feel. It would make it sound like I wasn't over him, like I was still emotionally involved and hurt. I don't want to bring exes into the present. 

'I wasn't happy in the marriage' would be a short and sweet answer and enough info that a new potential partner would need to hear about in the first couple dates.


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## SecondTime'Round

MRR said:


> Exactly, what WOULD be acceptable? Only infedility or abuse on the part of the husband?
> 
> Just curious. I have had the same situation.


Good question.

I think I'd have trouble dating a walk away spouse. I'd be ok with someone who was walked away FROM, or someone who was cheated on, but....I have enough trust issues. I wonder if I could ever fully trust anyone who had walked away from their non-cheating, non-abusive spouse.


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## Satya

I suppose you could call me a walkaway. My marriage was becoming a roommate situation, I was not attracted to my H due to resentment (he was not very emotionally supportive and I felt like a single person for years), but right at the point I was going to say "MC or I'm done," he told me he was going to change gender. 

So, I can't know if I would have actually been a walkaway, but sometimes people do really grow apart, as my ex and I did. We married young, we had no kids though we tried, but we didn't have a bad life,we were both decent, caring people. 

So, not all walkaways are going to be as you assume. We all come with a story.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

SecondTime'Round said:


> Good question.
> 
> I think I'd have trouble dating a walk away spouse. I'd be ok with someone who was walked away FROM, or someone who was cheated on, but....I have enough trust issues. I wonder if I could ever fully trust anyone who had walked away from their non-cheating, non-abusive spouse.


So if a man was in a marriage where none (or very few) of his needs were met, no sex, no affection, no love. There was no abuse or cheating but no matter what he tried, nothing changed. 
He finally got a divorce after years of trying. 

You would view his as non-trustworthy? 
I would view his as a d*mn good potential partner. 
One who knows how important needs are and is less likely to get complacent and take them for granted. He knows how it feels.


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## Grogmiester

Shoto1984 said:


> I've had some first and second dates recently with (what turned out to be) walk away spouses. These are people who walked away from their marriages (with kids) because they "just weren't happy" or "wasn't feeling fulfilled" or "just wasn't in love anymore" etc. *As someone who's ex destroyed our family, I probably predictably, am having a hard time not having negative feelings when I hear this. I can't imagine myself with someone who has done this nor do I feel like taking a chance on someone who has shown this ability.*
> 
> I'm curious about the perspective of others who have been in similar situations. How much does this kind of history matter to you? Why does it matter more or less than other possible flaws?


I think your feelings are perfectly normal. I think we're all hyper vigilant after our divorces and the red flags you see today probably wouldn't have been red flags prior to your divorce.


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## naiveonedave

Satya said:


> I suppose you could call me a walkaway. My marriage was becoming a roommate situation, I was not attracted to my H due to resentment (he was not very emotionally supportive and I felt like a single person for years), but right at the point I was going to say "MC or I'm done," he told me he was going to change gender.
> 
> So, I can't know if I would have actually been a walkaway, but sometimes people do really grow apart, as my ex and I did. We married young, we had no kids though we tried, but we didn't have a bad life,we were both decent, caring people.
> 
> So, not all walkaways are going to be as you assume. We all come with a story.


To me you weren't a walk away. You didn't marry who you thought you married. You didn't expect your H to change genders...


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## MRR

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I really wouldn't want to get into the years and years I tried to fix things without his meeting my needs and what I tried, for how long, how he made me feel. It would make it sound like I wasn't over him, like I was still emotionally involved and hurt. I don't want to bring exes into the present.
> 
> 'I wasn't happy in the marriage' would be a short and sweet answer and enough info that a new potential partner would need to hear about in the first couple dates.



I agree that should be enough when you dont really know each other. When my FWB and I knew each other better, she basically put it like this:

It got to the point where J was driving me crazy, and we had been together long enough that I could not imagine a time going forward when he didnt drive me crazy [in a negative way]. 

***

I think that due to other circumstances, this definitely makes me wary of her is we were to consider becoming committed. I think, knowing her pretty well now, that while I love hanging out with her and admire the person (and mother) she is, I have to admit I wonder if long term she would eventually want something new. Each case is different. I would not rule her out ONLY based on being a WAW. I think actually most of the women I will meet going forward will be WAWs in some form or another.


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## Marduk

Satya said:


> I suppose you could call me a walkaway. My marriage was becoming a roommate situation, I was not attracted to my H due to resentment (he was not very emotionally supportive and I felt like a single person for years), but right at the point I was going to say "MC or I'm done," he told me he was going to change gender.
> 
> So, I can't know if I would have actually been a walkaway, but sometimes people do really grow apart, as my ex and I did. We married young, we had no kids though we tried, but we didn't have a bad life,we were both decent, caring people.
> 
> So, not all walkaways are going to be as you assume. We all come with a story.


I think there's a giant difference between:

"Spouse, I'm not happy about X" and then waiting some time and giving up hope things will change and walking 

And 

"Spouse, I haven't been happy for a long time for reasons I've never been clear with you about, so bye"

And 

"Spouse, I get the sense something is missing in my life, so buh-bye" (the eat pray love scenario)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheGoodGuy

marduk said:


> I think there's a giant difference between:
> 
> "Spouse, I'm not happy about X" and then waiting some time and giving up hope things will change and walking
> 
> And
> 
> "Spouse, I haven't been happy for a long time for reasons I've never been clear with you about, so bye"
> 
> And
> 
> "Spouse, I get the sense something is missing in my life, so buh-bye" (the eat pray love scenario)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed. The first one is not a WAS in my opinion.


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## Shoto1984

I appreciate the replies. Some good food for thought. The definition of "walk away spouse" is going to be different for all of us. For me it's a situation that does not include violence or abuse or some other significantly destructive behavior. In fact I'm hearing things like "he's a good man and a great father it just wasn't right for me..." and the like. In all the situation I've experienced, kids were involved which make a huge difference also IMO.


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## MJJEAN

Shoto1984 said:


> I appreciate the replies. Some good food for thought. The definition of "walk away spouse" is going to be different for all of us. For me it's a situation that does not include violence or abuse or some other significantly destructive behavior. In fact I'm hearing things like "he's a good man and a great father it just wasn't right for me..." and the like. In all the situation I've experienced, kids were involved which make a huge difference also IMO.


I see no reason why someone should stay in a marriage where they don't love or feel attracted to their spouses. One cannot force themselves to feel something they don't.

Kids are actually one of my reasons for sometimes advising people to leave. Children believe the behavior modeled for them is how it's supposed to be. A cold or resentful marriage isn't exactly a good example to set for them. 

I'd have hated it if my kids had grown up watching Mommy numbly go through her days existing, but not living, while trying to avoid contact with Daddy. I'd have hated for them to think marriage was some kind of civil roommate arrangement for the rearing of children. I'd have hated for them to miss out on seeing the warmth, affection, and passion for each other DH and I demonstrate.

Besides, at least WAW's know what they DON'T want. Makes what they DO want more recognizable to them.


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## ConanHub

It would raise a few questions but if I really liked her and she fit certain circumstances for leaving, I would probably give it a go.

There are often unresolved issues a walk away has never dealt with.

Some are just fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974

Certainly paints a picture on thier views of commitment and for better or worse. I might need to hear some more to thier story before I would think to commit to something like that. But really that's what dating is all about...are you compatible or not. Hard to gauge the real them from one interaction.


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## Holland

In a way you are being as shallow as you are accusing them of being. One or two meet ups is hardly enough time to know someone's story.

My line was always "my marriage come to its natural end." Full stop, no further comment needed especially with a man I had only just met. 

Apart from that the whole walk away thing seems like just a good way to blame one party for the marriage ending, there is usually a lot more to most peoples situations than that.


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## Rowan

Divorced people are often in a bit of a catch 22 situation when dating. If you explain in detail why you're divorced you tend to sound still angry, not over your ex, or like you're one of those people who's into drama. If you gloss over the details you sound shifty and like maybe you were the one who was at fault but don't want to admit it. So, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. If we're otherwise compatible, I'm willing to wait a little longer than first or second date to really get into why their marriage failed. 

In fact, my personal first-date answer to the question of why I'm divorced was usually "He's not a bad person and we remain amicable, but I eventually discovered that we had very different, and very incompatible, ideas about what a marriage should be." That is the truth, as far as it goes. I don't tell strangers in the grocery store that he's a highly narcissistic serial cheater. Why would I tell a stranger that over a glass of wine, even if it is a date?


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## Wolf1974

Holland said:


> In a way you are being as *shallow* as you are accusing them of being. One or two meet ups is hardly enough time to know someone's story.
> 
> My line was always "my marriage come to its natural end." Full stop, no further comment needed especially with a man I had only just met.
> 
> Apart from that the whole walk away thing seems like just a good way to blame one party for the marriage ending, there is usually a lot more to most peoples situations than that.


Not particularly shallow to have a standard and stick to it. We all have our things. I do agree that more of the situation should be flushed out but sometimes what you are told is enough. For me if I am told that cheating was a part of your last marriage we are going to be done..... I don't care the reason and I have heard them all.


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## Wolf1974

Rowan said:


> Divorced people are often in a bit of a catch 22 situation when dating. If you explain in detail why you're divorced you tend to sound still angry, not over your ex, or like you're one of those people who's into drama. If you gloss over the details you sound shifty and like maybe you were the one who was at fault but don't want to admit it. So, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. If we're otherwise compatible, I'm willing to wait a little longer than first or second date to really get into why their marriage failed.
> 
> In fact, my personal first-date answer to the question of why I'm divorced was usually "He's not a bad person and we remain amicable, but I eventually discovered that we had very different, and very incompatible, ideas about what a marriage should be." That is the truth, as far as it goes. I don't tell strangers in the grocery store that he's a highly narcissistic serial cheater. Why would I tell a stranger that over a glass of wine, even if it is a date?


Maybe just a difference between men and women I don't know but I like to get that stuff all out in the open prior to first meeting. I have no issue telling potential dates that my marriage ended because my X wife cheated. I have no shame in it (not to say you do) as a matter of fact I think it shows my convictions and self esteem to not tolerate such things. What I usually say to a woman when it comes up, often before we even meet for a first date, marriage ended because she cheated on me and I wouldn't tolerate that. Then Segway that into letting them know I don't date anyone who has cheated because it's important deal breaker to me. Never had anyone tell me they were turned off by that. I do know in the very beginning I did over share because I was still hurt and angry so that was pointed out to me.

I imagine anyone who had been walked away from may feel the same way. You are right that it's a balancing act. Not everyone wants the same amount of information on that first couple times communicating. So I just share what is comfortable and leave the rest. I hope to get what I need from the other person to make a decision about if I want to continue with them or not. It's no wonder dating feels lie interviews right lol


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## MJJEAN

I was just pretending myself single and dating. I was trying to think of what I would say about why I left my first marriage. 

Good God, I'm pretty sure people would think I was either lying or exaggerating. I'd have to call in witnesses and produce court and police documents. Just in the last year, my ex has:

-extorted money from his dying father (lung cancer)

-got into a fight with his mother and threw things at her because she used the life insurance money to PAY HIS BILLS (back rent, back utilities, back car payments, cell phones, etc.) instead of giving it to him in cash so he could spend it. Apparently, he'd been going out partying and shopping on money he borrowed from friends because he thought he could pay them back with the insurance money...

-got evicted from his apartment for filth

-got into a physical fight with our 21 year old DAUGHTER (she was there to nurse her dying grandfather) and LOST (he punched her, she ducked, she came back with a right hook, knocked out his tooth, he was charged, she was not as it was self defense)

-lost custody of his two young children for abuse and neglect because his rental house was filthy, his wife failed her drug test and refused to show up for mandatory parenting classes, and their son hadn't been going to school because they didn't want to get up to drive him

That's just the last year. And only what has been told to me by his mother and my adult daughter. That isn't counting the fact that he hasn't worked in 6 years, that he has stolen thousands from his parents in cash and jewelry, that he lies like a rug, that he is a serial cheater, that he owes somewhere around $200,000 in child support for the 4 kids he has outside of his current marriage that he has never paid a dime of, on and on.


I'd rather be boiled in oil than have to explain all that and more to a date. Imagine what else I'd have to relate about his behavior during the marriage...

Not to mention, I'd have to explain WHY I married him. "Umm, I was young ans stupid and I got pregnant having casual sex , so I did the right thing and married the father thinking being a parent would somehow make him grow up and suck less?"

If I were dating, i think I'd prefer the sanitized version. "We weren't compatible, I didn't love him, and I left."


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## sandyyelicardena

It's just so hard to deal with a marriage does mean breaking up little by little and when there's no communication

Sent from my HTC Desire 626s using Tapatalk


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## arbitrator

Sammy64 said:


> I meet a lady online. Hit it off good so we went out to dinner. She told me during dinner that she had 2 affairs and was still married.. I politely excused myself to go to the bathroom and NEVER returned... She has sent a few texts but never reply back.. and have removed myself from OLD for awhile.


*You did good, @Sammy64! I'm absolutely proud of you!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jorgegene

if you accept the premise that walk away is only justified with infidelity or abuse, then you need to define what 'abuse' is.

the first thought is usually physical abuse and most will agree probably that is intolerable.

what is emotional or psychological abuse, and when is it severe enough to justify divorce or separation?
that's what gets complex. to my own mind, this is a broad category that could involve the extreme denial of affection or sex when the victim of that
abuse is relatively innocent and trying. extreme anger, ceaseless taunting, serious addictions that refuse to be addressed, et. control freaks, narcissism.
we could add to that list.

it is complex. and each individual does have their own story, but to my mind the problem must be extreme or i can't see 'walking away'.


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## arbitrator

MJJEAN said:


> I was just pretending myself single and dating. I was trying to think of what I would say about why I left my first marriage.
> 
> Good God, I'm pretty sure people would think I was either lying or exaggerating. I'd have to call in witnesses and produce court and police documents. Just in the last year, my ex has:
> 
> -extorted money from his dying father (lung cancer)
> 
> -got into a fight with his mother and threw things at her because she used the life insurance money to PAY HIS BILLS (back rent, back utilities, back car payments, cell phones, etc.) instead of giving it to him in cash so he could spend it. Apparently, he'd been going out partying and shopping on money he borrowed from friends because he thought he could pay them back with the insurance money...
> 
> -got evicted from his apartment for filth
> 
> -got into a physical fight with our 21 year old DAUGHTER (she was there to nurse her dying grandfather) and LOST (he punched her, she ducked, she came back with a right hook, knocked out his tooth, he was charged, she was not as it was self defense)
> 
> -lost custody of his two young children for abuse and neglect because his rental house was filthy, his wife failed her drug test and refused to show up for mandatory parenting classes, and their son hadn't been going to school because they didn't want to get up to drive him
> 
> That's just the last year. And only what has been told to me by his mother and my adult daughter. That isn't counting the fact that he hasn't worked in 6 years, that he has stolen thousands from his parents in cash and jewelry, that he lies like a rug, that he is a serial cheater, that he owes somewhere around $200,000 in child support for the 4 kids he has outside of his current marriage that he has never paid a dime of, on and on.
> 
> 
> I'd rather be boiled in oil than have to explain all that and more to a date. Imagine what else I'd have to relate about his behavior during the marriage...
> 
> Not to mention, I'd have to explain WHY I married him. "Umm, I was young ans stupid and I got pregnant having casual sex , so I did the right thing and married the father thinking being a parent would somehow make him grow up and suck less?"
> 
> If I were dating, i think I'd prefer the sanitized version. "We weren't compatible, I didn't love him, and I left."



*After having read that, I really feel that I f you will take the time and effort to thumb through your Webster's dictionary under the word "pathetic," I really think that you will find your ex's picture posted up there!

I know that I'm not a profound advocate of violence, but your ex seems like he needs his a$$ soundly whipped!

*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WasDecimated

Almost inevitably, when on a first or second date, the question would come up...”why are you divorced”. I would only ask if I was sensing something ominous in our conversation. The responses that I would get that would raise red flags were “It just didn’t work out”, “We just grew apart”, “I wanted to live life again”…etc. I actually got these often. In my mind, these would be the same kind of trite responses my XWW would give to a date when she was being dishonest about why she was divorced. By the same token, responses like these, if honest, could be revealing a lack of effort, determination, or respect for commitment. The truth is, I doubt very much if a WAW or XWW would tell anyone the truth anyway unless they did the work on themselves enough to own their s**t. IMO, these would be few and far between. I don't think I could date a WAW or XWW, with any honorable intention.

I did notice something odd when I was asked why I was divorced. I was always honest with my response. I would simply say that my XWW cheated on me. Once I admitted that, I noticed that most of my dates would relate to me differently. They would suddenly back off as if they considered it as a red flag and they just lost attraction to me. I actually decided to stop telling them about my XWW’s cheating and adapted a new response which was simply “It’s a long story, I’ll tell you once I get to know you better”. I could be wrong but some women may view a guy being cheated on as a sign of weakness of some kind. 

Has anyone else experienced this?


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## Shoto1984

MJJEAN said:


> I see no reason why someone should stay in a marriage where they don't love or feel attracted to their spouses. One cannot force themselves to feel something they don't.
> 
> *Thank you for your thoughts on this. The whole issue is filled with shades of grey which makes it an interesting topic. I would say "kids" might be a reason to stay. Then it goes to why do you not love or feel attracted to the person you once did (assuming the marriage was not a fraud from the start)*
> 
> Kids are actually one of my reasons for sometimes advising people to leave. Children believe the behavior modeled for them is how it's supposed to be. A cold or resentful marriage isn't exactly a good example to set for them. *Right, so another option is to work to change the marriage (or yourself.....) In what I'm seeing, the "cold, unloving, work-aholic" spouse is the person they married. The spouse didn't change they just decided at some point that they wanted something different and the spouse was expected to change who they are or be left behind. In my case my parent's marriage wasn't a blissful one but I believe I benefited more from them staying together then if they had parted.*
> 
> I'd have hated it if my kids had grown up watching Mommy numbly go through her days existing, but not living, while trying to avoid contact with Daddy. I'd have hated for them to think marriage was some kind of civil roommate arrangement for the rearing of children. I'd have hated for them to miss out on seeing the warmth, affection, and passion for each other DH and I demonstrate.*And this goes to the grey of it....is it just "I'm unhappy with this person" or more and what is the root of the unhappiness. Alot can contribute to "I'm unhappy" and it can be harder to tease these things out and consciously make changes then to bail.*
> 
> Besides, at least WAW's know what they DON'T want. Makes what they DO want more recognizable to them.*I have intentionally avoided using WAW and chosen WAS so as not to turn this into a gender blame game. I think "I'm unhappy" is an equal opportunity affliction. As for "what they DO want..." I'm not so sure and thats part of my concern. People tend to work in patterns and I'm thinking that someone who has done this might have a greater likelihood of walking when the road gets rough*


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## Shoto1984

I'll just toss this into the mix.... There is a great movie that touches on these issues. Bridges Of ******* County with Meryl Streep and Clint Eastwood. It's challenging in that it plays commitment against temptation and the promise of fulfillment. I saw it before I was married.... It might not be fun for people who have had their marriages torn apart by similar situations.


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## MommaGx3

Shoto1984 said:


> I appreciate the replies. Some good food for thought. The definition of "walk away spouse" is going to be different for all of us. For me it's a situation that does not include violence or abuse or some other significantly destructive behavior. In fact I'm hearing things like "he's a good man and a great father it just wasn't right for me..." and the like. In all the situation I've experienced, kids were involved which make a huge difference also IMO.


I'm pretty much that walk-away. I married my high school sweetheart right out of graduation. We moved around, we had a couple of kids and the years passed by. We never fought. There was no verbal, physical or emotional abuse. We just co-existed. We each did our own things. Eventually, I had an epiphany that I didn't have to just accept the way things were. I could leave to pursue greater happiness. 

We entered counseling. Neither of us were really in a position that we could accept the aid of the counseling. End result, totally amicable divorce. No lawyers. Just the two of us in front of a judge no alimony, child support, etc. Just a line down the middle. 

My daughters were getting a very bad view of men. They both pretty much consider a man just there for fun or game playing. If they want something done or they want a reassurance that it will get done, they came to me. It's taken years of having my current husband in their lives that they have started to view men differently. 

I'd hate to be judged on something that in my mind was better for me, better for the children and would result in a fuller life for me and them.


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## WasDecimated

MommaGx3 said:


> We entered counseling. Neither of us were really in a position that we could accept the aid of the counseling. End result, totally amicable divorce. No lawyers. Just the two of us in front of a judge no alimony, child support, etc. Just a line down the middle.


I would not consider you a WAW.


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## EleGirl

Decimated said:


> I would not consider you a WAW.


Can you explain why?


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## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> Can you explain why?


I can't answer for him but I also don't consider that a WAW. Seems to me they both had a very clear understanding that the marriage wasn't working and both agreed to end it. That would be an mutual split where neither party was suprised by the outcome


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## just got it 55

mjjean said:


> i was just pretending myself single and dating. I was trying to think of what i would say about why i left my first marriage.
> 
> Good god, i'm pretty sure people would think i was either lying or exaggerating. I'd have to call in witnesses and produce court and police documents. Just in the last year, my ex has:
> 
> -extorted money from his dying father (lung cancer)
> 
> -got into a fight with his mother and threw things at her because she used the life insurance money to pay his bills (back rent, back utilities, back car payments, cell phones, etc.) instead of giving it to him in cash so he could spend it. Apparently, he'd been going out partying and shopping on money he borrowed from friends because he thought he could pay them back with the insurance money...
> 
> -got evicted from his apartment for filth
> 
> -got into a physical fight with our 21 year old daughter (she was there to nurse her dying grandfather) and lost (he punched her, she ducked, she came back with a right hook, knocked out his tooth, he was charged, she was not as it was self defense)
> 
> -lost custody of his two young children for abuse and neglect because his rental house was filthy, his wife failed her drug test and refused to show up for mandatory parenting classes, and their son hadn't been going to school because they didn't want to get up to drive him
> 
> that's just the last year. And only what has been told to me by his mother and my adult daughter. That isn't counting the fact that he hasn't worked in 6 years, that he has stolen thousands from his parents in cash and jewelry, that he lies like a rug, that he is a serial cheater, that he owes somewhere around $200,000 in child support for the 4 kids he has outside of his current marriage that he has never paid a dime of, on and on.
> 
> 
> I'd rather be boiled in oil than have to explain all that and more to a date. Imagine what else i'd have to relate about his behavior during the marriage...
> 
> Not to mention, i'd have to explain why i married him. "umm, i was young ans stupid and i got pregnant having casual sex , so i did the right thing and married the father thinking being a parent would somehow make him grow up and suck less?"
> 
> if i were dating, i think i'd prefer the sanitized version. "we weren't compatible, i didn't love him, and i left."


it would be easy just to say

he was /is an asswhole

55


----------



## WasDecimated

Wolf1974 said:


> I can't answer for him but I also don't consider that a WAW. Seems to me they both had a very clear understanding that the marriage wasn't working and both agreed to end it. That would be an mutual split where neither party was suprised by the outcome


EleGirl, this is pretty much what my response would be as well. Also, they at least attempted counseling. 

My understanding of a WAW is a wife that literally leaves a marriage with little or no warning. They may or may not have an OM waiting but there is usually no attempt to work things out and any attempt by the husband in response is futile. These women have made up their minds and unilaterally decided that the marriage is over. They are moving on despite the collateral damage that befalls their families in search of themselves.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Decimated said:


> EleGirl, this is pretty much what my response would be as well. Also, they at least attempted counseling.
> 
> My understanding of a WAW is a wife that literally leaves a marriage with little or no warning. They may or may not have an OM waiting but there is usually no attempt to work things out and any attempt by the husband in response is futile. These women have made up their minds and unilaterally decided that the marriage is over. They are moving on despite the collateral damage that befalls their families in search of themselves.


Yep, for me it's the one-sidedness and suddenness of the decision to leave. It leaves the other spouse shocked beyond belief and in unbearable pain.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Shoto1984 said:


> As someone who's ex destroyed our family, I probably predictably, am having a hard time not having negative feelings when I hear this. I can't imagine myself with someone who has done this nor do I feel like taking a chance on someone who has shown this ability.
> 
> I'm curious about the perspective of others who have been in similar situations.


I'm 100% with you. Huge red flag for me. I'd pass on a WAW too. Nothing personal to them, I'm sure they had valid reasons, I'm just not looking for that type of person.

Don't let anyone tell you different. It's your life. You make your own boundaries and decisions on traits you're looking for in a mate. You don't owe anybody anything.


----------



## Holland

Wolf1974 said:


> Not particularly shallow to have a standard and stick to it. We all have our things. I do agree that more of the situation should be flushed out but sometimes what you are told is enough. For me if I am told that cheating was a part of your last marriage we are going to be done..... I don't care the reason and I have heard them all.


Making a judgement call on another person after one or two meetings is shallow in this scenario.

Yes have standards, of course, if someone said they cheated etc then you have a fairly solid answer as to why they divorced and it would be time to make that judgement call. But if someone doesn't want to get into the nitty gritty of the marriage/divorce in the first or second meet up then that is their right.

Most men I met simply said they and the ex grew apart. Does that mean all these men are walk away husbands? No it means they have the right to their privacy and will discuss the personal details when appropriate.

There is also a very fine line on when to tell some details and you cannot judge when that time is at the very start.


----------



## SadSamIAm

I am thinking that there are very few actual WAWs. 

The husband may feel she is a WAW and tell everyone how surprised that she just up and left.

But I am guessing the WAW will have a different story. How she told him for years to stop doing x, y, & z or that he needed to do x, y, and z. That she got tired of asking. Knew he was never going to change. So she finally had enough and left.


----------



## Holland

TheGoodGuy said:


> Yep, for me it's the one-sidedness and suddenness of the decision to leave. It leaves the other spouse shocked beyond belief and in unbearable pain.


Which would be a very difficult thing to deal with.

However the OP and others are saying that all these women he meets have simply walked out of their marriages based on a few words "we grew apart" or whatever they say. Instead of actually finding out what happened a very poorly informed judgement call has been made.

If you don't want to get into a relationship with a woman that has truly walked away from her family with no reason then don't. But find out first what the situation really is don't imagine what you think happened,

It would be like a women posting here that all her first dates said their marriages "grew apart" and that she isn't going to see any of these guys again because they must be cheaters. She assumes they are a cheater because they didn't tell her the full story on the first date.


----------



## Evinrude58

Shoto1984 said:


> I've had some first and second dates recently with (what turned out to be) walk away spouses. These are people who walked away from their marriages (with kids) because they "just weren't happy" or "wasn't feeling fulfilled" or "just wasn't in love anymore" etc. As someone who's ex destroyed our family, I probably predictably, am having a hard time not having negative feelings when I hear this. I can't imagine myself with someone who has done this nor do I feel like taking a chance on someone who has shown this ability.
> 
> I'm curious about the perspective of others who have been in similar situations. How much does this kind of history matter to you? Why does it matter more or less than other possible flaws?


I had this happen and avoided them, never had a second date with them
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MJJEAN

just got it 55 said:


> it would be easy just to say
> 
> he was /is an asswhole
> 
> 55


Azzhole so doesn't even cover it. 



Decimated said:


> My understanding of a WAW is a wife that literally leaves a marriage with little or no warning.


And by this definition, I am a WAW. Despite the absolute POS my ex was and is, he claims he was "shocked" and "blindsided" when I left him.


----------



## Holland

MJJEAN said:


> Azzhole so doesn't even cover it.
> 
> 
> 
> And by this definition, I am a WAW. Despite the absolute POS my ex was and is, he claims he was "shocked" and "blindsided" when I left him.


Mine just choose to ignore the warnings and he was shocked and blindsided. Yay I'm a walk away wife.

The good thing is that Mr H is not a shallow man and did not judge me based on a first meeting and hearing that I ended the marriage as it had come to its natural end.
Both our stories took time to unfold to each other, as we grew closer and more comfortable our stories came out.
The fantastic thing for him is that he bothered to take the time to know me and is the beneficiary of meeting a woman that values sex and intimacy (something I did not get in my first marriage). Our sex life is extraordinary, we are both extremely happy.

Everyone post divorce has a story, often complex. If you want to be valued for who you are and understood for what you past has been then it is only right to do the same. Judging based on a one liner is counter productive.

It just seems silly to cut off people without actually knowing them. I would say that the women that have been passed by in some of these posts have had a lucky save.


----------



## Wolf1974

Holland said:


> Making a judgement call on another person after one or two meetings is shallow in this scenario.
> 
> Yes have standards, of course, if someone said they cheated etc then you have a fairly solid answer as to why they divorced and it would be time to make that judgement call. But if someone doesn't want to get into the nitty gritty of the marriage/divorce in the first or second meet up then that is their right.
> 
> Most men I met simply said they and the ex grew apart. Does that mean all these men are walk away husbands? No it means they have the right to their privacy and will discuss the personal details when appropriate.
> 
> There is also a very fine line on when to tell some details and you cannot judge when that time is at the very start.


Well guess we just have different ways of looking at it. You say discuss when appropriate and I think that's right up front because if they have a deal breaker I would rather know up front than waste my time personally
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ynot

Ok I was a LBS who was devastated when my x decided she was leaving. I was shocked and felt blindsided at the time. But as time has passed I have come to realize all the signs were there, I just wasn't paying attention to them.
Earlier today, I was talking to my friend, who was my rock thru my ordeal. The topic of my marriage came up and I related how I had come to realize thru hindsight of just how unhappy I was before she left. How alone I had become. How many things I did by myself. He mentioned his little joke where he used to call me "home alone ....". 
So while my ex was/is a WAW, I truly can't say I wasn't warned. I really think the statement some else made about the marriage coming to its natural end is probably the most appropriate comment yet.


----------



## Holland

Wolf1974 said:


> Well guess we just have different ways of looking at it. You say discuss when appropriate and I think that's right up front because if they have a deal breaker I would rather know up front than waste my time personally
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fair call. So in this case if the deal breaker is no walk away partners then it would be prudent to state very specifically on day one "I am not interested in starting something if your marriage ended because you decided one day to leave and had not had any prior discussion/counselling etc with your husband/wife". 

All for open discussion if appropriate, what seems to be happening here though is assumption, that's not healthy.

I really doubt there are many that just get up one day, no prior discussion, warnings and left the marriage.


----------



## Ynot

I think part of the problem here is the projection we all tend to do. We project ourselves into whichever role was filled by the other's ex and project our ex into the role of the other. The reality is that none of us were the other's ex, and the other wasn't our ex. We are all individuals and each of us has our own story to tell. None of that is to say, we should blindly accept the other but rather that we should acknowledge and be aware of this aspect. An otherwise attractive (not just physically) person should not be so readily discarded on the basis of our own experiences with someone else. When something like this comes up, I dig a little deeper and ask a few more questions if it bothers me. Sometimes the answers satisfy my discomfort and sometimes they do the opposite. But you will never know if you do not ask.


----------



## just got it 55

Holland said:


> Mine just choose to ignore the warnings and he was shocked and blindsided. Yay I'm a walk away wife.
> 
> The good thing is that Mr H is not a shallow man and did not judge me based on a first meeting and hearing that I ended the marriage as it had come to its natural end.
> Both our stories took time to unfold to each other, as we grew closer and more comfortable our stories came out.
> The fantastic thing for him is that he bothered to take the time to know me and is the beneficiary of meeting a woman that values sex and intimacy (something I did not get in my first marriage). Our sex life is extraordinary, we are both extremely happy.
> 
> Everyone post divorce has a story, often complex. If you want to be valued for who you are and understood for what you past has been then it is only right to do the same. Judging based on a one liner is counter productive.
> 
> It just seems silly to cut off people without actually knowing them. I would say that the women that have been passed by in some of these posts have had a lucky save.


We live
We fail 
We learn 
We grow (hopefully)

55


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## Hopeful Cynic

I don't think anybody is a 'walkaway' the way the name makes it sound. I have no doubt that nearly all of them had the marriage slowly eroded over time, most likely due to poor communication. The 'walkaway' may have felt disrespected for years in the marriage, and tried to address it and not been heard by their spouse, or heard and dismissed. Most 'walkaways' probably don't want to leave the marriage at all.

I saw this article She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes by the Sink | Must Be This Tall To Ride just now that made me think of this 'walkaway' concept.

That line


> If you just tell me what you want me to do, I’ll gladly do it.


is so accurate. The other partner doesn't want to have to tell their spouse what to do. They want their spouse to have the maturity, respect and initiative to be a second adult in the relationship.

So if someone tells me that their marriage ended because one of them 'walked away' I'll know that one or both of them had a communication problem, and there's a better than 50% chance that it's the one in front of me.

I would want to know if a date has learned from that experience, and made necessary and lasting changes that they would bring into a subsequent relationship.


----------



## Wolf1974

Holland said:


> Fair call. So in this case if the deal breaker is no walk away partners then it would be prudent to state very specifically on day one "I am not interested in starting something if your marriage ended because you decided one day to leave and had not had any prior discussion/counselling etc with your husband/wife".
> 
> All for open discussion if appropriate, what seems to be happening here though is assumption, that's not healthy.
> 
> I really doubt there are many that just get up one day, no prior discussion, warnings and left the marriage.


Many no but some do and if that's your deal breaker I would have no problem with it stated early. 

I do state something very early on about cheating( which is my actual deal breaker). Just to get it out there. I mean why meet someone when I know it can't go anywhere.


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## Evinrude58

A WalkawAy does want to leave the marriage. They think they have good reason, normally totally believe it's ALL the other oerson's fault, and are so self-centered they can't even see their own. When they leave, they had given clues or flat out said they were unhappy, but the abandoned spouse likely never understood how badly the waw was hurting or was too interested in their own life or was doing things they wanted to do, good or bad, and didn't see their pain. 
Either way, the mindset of leaving your spouse that you KNOW loves you is wrong, in my opinion. 
One can always find a reason to divorce, if that's what you're looking for. Some people are incapable of finding contentment for whatever reason. That's the kind of people I don't want to consider for a long term partner again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LBHmidwest

Part of my career is recruiting people. For me it's something I establish before a first date. If I get a taste of mid life crisis WAW I'm GONE!

Why get involved with someone that has already shown their colors?

Is it easy to figure out. I think so. 

I wanted my happiness
Kids will be fine
He really had been dead to me a long time
I deserved to live again
He should have saw it coming
Counseling wasn't going to help
Rants, raves, abuse about ex

Any of it just points to a self centered person. 

I'd much rather hear it didn't work out, I tried very hard, the kids are my priority but I also think I need to begin to rebuild my life with someone I could love, trust, cherish. I have learned some lessons and work on making myself a better person. I can only control me and I try hard to be amicable with my ex.

Anything else, just asking for it.


----------



## Ynot

Evinrude58 said:


> Either way, the mindset of leaving your spouse that you KNOW loves you is wrong, in my opinion.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So you should just stay with some one because they love you? I don't think I would be comfortable with that (and wasn't). I would rather some one be with me because they WANT to be with me instead of out of obligation.
WAS happen for all sorts of reasons, and applying some one size fits all judgement to each of them is short sighted.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Evinrude58 said:


> A WalkawAy does want to leave the marriage. They think they have good reason, normally totally believe it's ALL the other oerson's fault, and are so self-centered they can't even see their own. When they leave, they had given clues or flat out said they were unhappy, but the abandoned spouse likely never understood how badly the waw was hurting or was too interested in their own life or was doing things they wanted to do, good or bad, and didn't see their pain.
> Either way, the mindset of leaving your spouse that you KNOW loves you is wrong, in my opinion.
> One can always find a reason to divorce, if that's what you're looking for. Some people are incapable of finding contentment for whatever reason. That's the kind of people I don't want to consider for a long term partner again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow, no offense, but you have no clue. It is a losing battle when you are ignored, dismissed, and disregarded. If that person really loved you, then they wouldn't treat their partner's feelings as insignificant, and actually DO SOMETHING when presented with their partner's unhappiness. You cannot stay just because you think someone "loves you." Sorry.


----------



## Starstarfish

> Either way, the mindset of leaving your spouse that you KNOW loves you is wrong, in my opinion.


What are we defining as "loves you"?

If you in your mind, your soul you love me, but you are incapable of me feeling that love from you in a way that I -feel- loved, what does your love mean?

This thread just seems to reflect the common attitude that's come up on basically any discussion of WAWs. Women short of discovering sexual infidelity or physical abuse have no real valid reason for "quitting" a marriage. Because obviously no matter how much warning or discussion they give if the man doesn't _*feel *_like he got warning, then he was "blindsided" and she just "walked away from all of her obligations."

And then people can decide on a case by case basis after analyzing your story whether or not you are one of "those women."


----------



## Ynot

Starstarfish said:


> What are we defining as "loves you"?
> 
> If you in your mind, your soul you love me, but you are incapable of me feeling that love from you in a way that I -feel- loved, what does your love mean?
> 
> This thread just seems to reflect the common attitude that's come up on basically any discussion of WAWs. Women short of discovering sexual infidelity or physical abuse have no real valid reason for "quitting" a marriage. Because obviously no matter how much warning or discussion they give if the man doesn't _*feel *_like he got warning, then he was "blindsided" and she just "walked away from all of her obligations."
> 
> And then people can decide on a case by case basis after analyzing your story whether or not you are one of "those women."


It isn't just women, but men as well. The whole other thread about WAW ignored the fact that most times it is a two way street. The idea that you can just place the blame on the WA is just another way to avoid accepting your part in the melt down and IMO a major impediment to truly learning and growing from the pain.


----------



## MJJEAN

Evinrude58 said:


> Either way, the mindset of leaving your spouse that you KNOW loves you is wrong, in my opinion.
> 
> One can always find a reason to divorce, if that's what you're looking for. Some people are incapable of finding contentment for whatever reason. That's the kind of people I don't want to consider for a long term partner again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is very black and white thinking. It's also lacking in compassion.

My ex claimed he loved me very much. So freaking what? I damn near hated him, felt zero attraction for him, didn't like him, had nothing in common with him other than 2 kids, and you somehow think I should have stayed because he loved me? Really?

What good could have possibly come from staying in a sham marriage? How much misery should I have endured every day because he claimed to love me? How many irreplaceable years of my life should I have sacrificed because he said he loved me? How many nights should I have slept next to a man who actively repulsed me?

Sometimes people are just incompatible. It doesn't matter how much one may love the other. Love doesn't fix base incompatibility. It doesn't matter if one may want to go to therapy or couples counseling. All the counseling in the world can't make two incompatible people suddenly become compatible. Why waste years on something than cannot be "fixed"?

I've been remarried for 13 years, together as a couple for 16. I am clearly capable of love, commitment, contentment/happiness. I just wasn't capable of that _with him.
_


----------



## Evinrude58

Ynot said:


> So you should just stay with some one because they love you? I don't think I would be comfortable with that (and wasn't). I would rather some one be with me because they WANT to be with me instead of out of obligation.
> WAS happen for all sorts of reasons, and applying some one size fits all judgement to each of them is short sighted.


One swore that they loved them at one time? Swore you always would...
But rather than figuring out how to fix whatever the problem is, finding a way to fall in love with them again, figuring out a way to be happy
They have an exit affair and leave. 
Then, they say their ex is a good person and was faithful, provided, etc--- they just fell out of love with them......

Yes, I think thats wrong. 

The other spouse that planned their life around the other, and their kids, has no choice in the matter and has their life ripped apart. While the other justifies their bad behavior by rewriting history and ignores their own faults. 

That's my point of view, anyway. Lots of circumstances that call for a divorce, but their should be good reasons and not "we just grew apart" or the classic a waw I almost dated said "I married him at 19 just because I wanted a wedding. I never really loved him but we had 3 kids and I stayed w him just for them for x years. He was a good man and a good dad, he just wasn't the one for me". 
Sure, the guy was better off. But did he have a choice? Just an example.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Evinrude58

MJJEAN said:


> That is very black and white thinking. It's also lacking in compassion.
> 
> My ex claimed he loved me very much. So freaking what? I damn near hated him, felt zero attraction for him, didn't like him, had nothing in common with him other than 2 kids, and you somehow think I should have stayed because he loved me? Really?
> 
> What good could have possibly come from staying in a sham marriage? How much misery should I have endured every day because he claimed to love me? How many irreplaceable years of my life should I have sacrificed because he said he loved me? How many nights should I have slept next to a man who actively repulsed me?
> 
> Sometimes people are just incompatible. It doesn't matter how much one may love the other. Love doesn't fix base incompatibility. It doesn't matter if one may want to go to therapy or couples counseling. All the counseling in the world can't make two incompatible people suddenly become compatible. Why waste years on something than cannot be "fixed"?
> 
> I've been remarried for 13 years, together as a couple for 16. I am clearly capable of love, commitment, contentment/happiness. I just wasn't capable of that _with him.
> _


I'm not arguing that, and you are right to seek happiness. But why the heck did you marry a guy that repulses you? And how, if you were fooled, did it take so long and why did you have kids with him???
Just trying to understand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shoto1984

I think for me the line between WAS or not is who changed. If you married the person and over time they became intolerable that's one thing. If over time you changed what you found acceptable in a mate then demanded they meet your new criteria that's something else. Coming to grips about what actually happened takes more effort and honesty than many are probably willing to muster.


----------



## Evinrude58

There are many cases where sometimes it just doesn't work and one spouse has to make the decision since the other won't or can't. I'm not casting stones. I'm just saying that a midlife crisis, chronic malcontent, or person that's just not committed to the marriage and smells greener grass---- I wouldn't date someone like that and those people are out there. I've met them. 

It's a painful thing.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ynot

Evinrude58 said:


> There are many cases where sometimes it just doesn't work and one spouse has to make the decision since the other won't or can't. I'm not casting stones. I'm just saying that a midlife crisis, chronic malcontent, or person that's just not committed to the marriage and smells greener grass---- I wouldn't date someone like that and those people are out there. I've met them.
> 
> It's a painful thing.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Evinrude, you are more than welcome to arrive at your own conclusions, but from your response to me it appears as though you are projecting and your comment that a WAW should stay because their spouse still loves them wreaks of anger and bitterness.
You do NOT know and really can NOT possibly know, even when the other tries to explain to you, exactly what they were thinking at that time. For all you know they may feel it was the biggest mistake of their life, but realize they can never fix what has been broken. They may actually feel that their ex was a nice person, a good person, a good provider, a good father even a good husband but they just weren't feeling it. 
All I am saying is that you are possibly missing out on many great opportunities by cutting things off as soon as YOU decide they were a WAW. You are still allowing your ex to dictate circumstances in your life.
As I said I was a LBS, but you know what? I realize I am better off to be free to find someone who really loves me, than to be bound to some one because of obligation


----------



## MJJEAN

Evinrude58 said:


> I'm not arguing that, and you are right to seek happiness. But why the heck did you marry a guy that repulses you? And how, if you were fooled, did it take so long and why did you have kids with him???
> Just trying to understand.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He was a guy I was casually dating. I wasn't into him, but I wasn't repulsed by him yet. I was seeing other guys. He was doing whatever when I wasn't around.

I was on the Pill, got bronchitis and got put on antibiotics, no one told me they would reduce the effectiveness of the Pill until my first prenatal appointment. Due to the timing of the pregnancy, it was definitely his kid. So, we got married to "do the right thing".

I was fine with him in small doses, but in close quarters day after day, I went from neutral to active dislike. The dislike took the very minimal chemistry to zero and then to repulsion.

4 years in, I got pregnant again. Condom failure. I wouldn't have sex with him without one. Apparently, the idiot was improperly storing them. I probably should have noticed, but I only had sex with him when he annoyed me so long I'd do it to shut him up, so I figured the condom supply was his problem. In case you're curious, he had them stashed in the heat vent "so DD wouldn't find them". Seriously. 

When I found out I was pregnant by exH again, I sat on the couch and cried for 3 days straight. Got as far as calling the abortion clinic, but couldn't go through with it. 

By the time DD1 turned 6 and DD2 turned 1, I decided to end the sham.


----------



## Ynot

We often forget when we are young and dumb we do things that are young and dumb. I do not know anyone who is the same person at 30 or 40 or 50 that they were when they were 20. Live and learn or keep making the same mistakes over and over.


----------



## MJJEAN

Shoto1984 said:


> I think for me the line between WAS or not is who changed. If you married the person and over time they became intolerable that's one thing. If over time you changed what you found acceptable in a mate then demanded they meet your new criteria that's something else. Coming to grips about what actually happened takes more effort and honesty than many are probably willing to muster.


Does it really matter who changed? Either way, it's two people who are not compatible.


----------



## MJJEAN

Ynot said:


> We often forget when we are young and dumb we do things that are young and dumb. I do not know anyone who is the same person at 30 or 40 or 50 that they were when they were 20. Live and learn or keep making the same mistakes over and over.


We all change over time, but our core personalities usually stay the same. I think the trick is to find someone whose core personality is compatible with your core personality.


----------



## Ynot

MJJEAN said:


> We all change over time, but our core personalities usually stay the same. I think the trick is to find someone whose core personality is compatible with your core personality.


BULLSH!T! I hear this all the time it is a load of crap. WTH is a "core personality"? If you don't change with the experiences you have in your life you are dead. Life changes everybody all the way down to your core. That is unless you are one of the very few who never have a life changing event happen to them. And even then you have no control over the other's personality or adaptations to change.


----------



## Evinrude58

MJJEAN said:


> He was a guy I was casually dating. I wasn't into him, but I wasn't repulsed by him yet. I was seeing other guys. He was doing whatever when I wasn't around.
> 
> I was on the Pill, got bronchitis and got put on antibiotics, no one told me they would reduce the effectiveness of the Pill until my first prenatal appointment. Due to the timing of the pregnancy, it was definitely his kid. So, we got married to "do the right thing".
> 
> I was fine with him in small doses, but in close quarters day after day, I went from neutral to active dislike. The dislike took the very minimal chemistry to zero and then to repulsion.
> 
> 4 years in, I got pregnant again. Condom failure. I wouldn't have sex with him without one. Apparently, the idiot was improperly storing them. I probably should have noticed, but I only had sex with him when he annoyed me so long I'd do it to shut him up, so I figured the condom supply was his problem. In case you're curious, he had them stashed in the heat vent "so DD wouldn't find them". Seriously.
> 
> When I found out I was pregnant by exH again, I sat on the couch and cried for 3 days straight. Got as far as calling the abortion clinic, but couldn't go through with it.
> 
> By the time DD1 turned 6 and DD2 turned 1, I decided to end the sham.


Well, surely that wouldn't qualify for a WalkawAy in my mind.

I'm lucky, I am still very angry about what my spouse did, which involved infidelity, but I have found someone that I love again and there is no comparison between her and my ex. I'm over my feelings for my ex, but not over the breakup of my family and the regular torture I'm put through with custody of my kids and dealing with her.

I'm absolutely certain I "project" regularly....
But If I have to date again, I will stay away from people I believe have low character. It would be the way they said they left, as much as the why, which I would pay attention to. But there are key phrases I look for, now that I know what to look for.
If they admitted that it wasn't all the other spouses fault for the divorce, that would make me think twice about them. 

I'm certainly not regret free in my divorce, but don't have any guilt. I did the best I could......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ynot

Evinrude58 said:


> I'm certainly not regret free in my divorce, but don't have any guilt. I did the best I could......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And many WAWs feel the same way.


----------



## MJJEAN

Ynot said:


> BULLSH!T! I hear this all the time it is a load of crap. WTH is a "core personality"? If you don't change with the experiences you have in your life you are dead. Life changes everybody all the way down to your core. That is unless you are one of the very few who never have a life changing event happen to them. And even then you have no control over the other's personality or adaptations to change.


Core personality refers to ingrained habits and behavior patterns. Rarely do these change.

Sure, people will develop new interests and hobbies. Their preferred foods and drinks may change. They'll maybe even develop a new style. Some will go from fat to fit or fit to fat. Many will change careers with or without attending college or a trade school. But those changes are rather superficial. They don't change the core. Someone who is intelligent, has a sense of humor, loyal, family oriented, loves animals, works hard, tends toward tidiness, etc. is very likely to retain those traits throughout life.

I was with my ex for a total of 8 years if you count the time we were casually dating. I watched him change as he aged. But his core personality was the same, was not compatible with mine, and none of those changes made me like him any more than I did before.

DH and I have been together since we were 24 years old. We're now 40. We've obviously matured since then. We've both experienced some profound life changing events. Yet none of the changes has made us like each other any less.



Evinrude58 said:


> Well, surely that wouldn't qualify for a WalkawAy in my mind.
> 
> I'm lucky, I am still very angry about what my spouse did, which involved infidelity, but I have found someone that I love again and there is no comparison between her and my ex. I'm over my feelings for my ex, but not over the breakup of my family and the regular torture I'm put through with custody of my kids and dealing with her.
> 
> I'm absolutely certain I "project" regularly....
> But If I have to date again, I will stay away from people I believe have low character. It would be the way they said they left, as much as the why, which I would pay attention to. But there are key phrases I look for, now that I know what to look for.
> If they admitted that it wasn't all the other spouses fault for the divorce, that would make me think twice about them.
> 
> I'm certainly not regret free in my divorce, but don't have any guilt. I did the best I could......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My first marriage contained infidelity on both sides. But that wasn't the reason I left. It was a symptom, not the problem. I honestly didn't care who he was sleeping with. I was just happy when he wasn't bothering me. THAT's why I left.

For some unknown reason, my ex really did think he loved me and that we could "work it out". He had a hard time accepting that I was serious about leaving. He tried love bombing me. He tried sabotaging me. He was pretty messed up for a few months.

I have zero doubt that, from his point of view, I "suddenly threw away our family" and left him "out of the blue". In fact, he actually tried to say that to a few mutual friends!

Now, you may think I have low character because I committed infidelity. I cannot possibly convey to you how miserable, trapped, young, alone, and incredibly foolish I was. I also cannot convey the seriously skanky, heinous, and downright sketchy shyte the ex did on a regular basis.

I have actually had a_ priest_ tell me "What you did was technically wrong, but given the circumstances..."

I've been with DH 16 years now and have never cheated on him. Nor would I.



Ynot said:


> And many WAWs feel the same way.


And the truth is that leaving someone you don't love or are completely incompatible with is actually a mercy for both. 

One (wo)man's trash is another (wo)man's treasure. Somewhere out there is another who will pick up that "unwanted" spouse and love him/her the way s/he deserves.

There's a lid for every pot. My ex is remarried to a woman that is his perfect match. Their lives are a hot mess, but they seem to love each other in their way.


----------



## Lila

I have a very good, life long friend who recently entered the dating pool again after divorcing her husband. What she found early on is that divorcees, especially relatively young ones like her (she's 37), are stuck in a no win situation. 

The times she admitted the truth about her divorce, her ex was a serial cheater, the guys saw her as damaged goods - burned and jaded. 

When she used the standard "we grew apart", the guy assumed she was a WAW because she was the one to file for divorce. 

So now her response to the question of why she divorced is "we figured out that we were happier and better people apart than together". No further information provided.


----------



## Ynot

MJJEAN said:


> Core personality refers to ingrained habits and behavior patterns. Rarely do these change.
> 
> Sure, people will develop new interests and hobbies. Their preferred foods and drinks may change. They'll maybe even develop a new style. Some will go from fat to fit or fit to fat. Many will change careers with or without attending college or a trade school. But those changes are rather superficial. They don't change the core. Someone who is intelligent, has a sense of humor, loyal, family oriented, loves animals, works hard, tends toward tidiness, etc. is very likely to retain those traits throughout life.
> .


Each of us is the sum total of our own responses to all of the experiences we have had. I don't care what attribute you ascribe to being a "core value", the simple fact is that a living breathing human being will change upon each experience. Some changes are incremental and some are monumental. But we all change just the same. Some times the changes simply reinforce what we already "know" and other times they don't. Either way it is a change from who we were before.
There may be things that we like about ourselves that we seek to preserve and persevere, but even those change over time as our knowledge becomes more nuanced and perfect (we never reach perfection we only move towards it), but they change all the same.


----------



## Shoto1984

Ynot said:


> We often forget when we are young and dumb we do things that are young and dumb. I do not know anyone who is the same person at 30 or 40 or 50 that they were when they were 20. Live and learn or keep making the same mistakes over and over.


Fair enough but what is a commitment when all it takes is "that was a dumb choice" to wipe it out? If there are children involved should they be made to suffer for your "young and dumb" choice?


----------



## Shoto1984

MJJEAN said:


> Does it really matter who changed? Either way, it's two people who are not compatible.


The point is the two people seemed to believe they were compatible at some point thus the marriage (discounting marriage fraud or the pressure of a pregnancy etc) So what changed and why? To not consider this is to walk away from responsibility which is convenient but a trait I'm looking to avoid in the future.


----------



## Evinrude58

MJJEAN said:


> Core personality refers to ingrained habits and behavior patterns. Rarely do these change.
> 
> Sure, people will develop new interests and hobbies. Their preferred foods and drinks may change. They'll maybe even develop a new style. Some will go from fat to fit or fit to fat. Many will change careers with or without attending college or a trade school. But those changes are rather superficial. They don't change the core. Someone who is intelligent, has a sense of humor, loyal, family oriented, loves animals, works hard, tends toward tidiness, etc. is very likely to retain those traits throughout life.
> 
> I was with my ex for a total of 8 years if you count the time we were casually dating. I watched him change as he aged. But his core personality was the same, was not compatible with mine, and none of those changes made me like him any more than I did before.
> 
> DH and I have been together since we were 24 years old. We're now 40. We've obviously matured since then. We've both experienced some profound life changing events. Yet none of the changes has made us like each other any less.
> 
> 
> 
> My first marriage contained infidelity on both sides. But that wasn't the reason I left. It was a symptom, not the problem. I honestly didn't care who he was sleeping with. I was just happy when he wasn't bothering me. THAT's why I left.
> 
> For some unknown reason, my ex really did think he loved me and that we could "work it out". He had a hard time accepting that I was serious about leaving. He tried love bombing me. He tried sabotaging me. He was pretty messed up for a few months.
> 
> I have zero doubt that, from his point of view, I "suddenly threw away our family" and left him "out of the blue". In fact, he actually tried to say that to a few mutual friends!
> 
> Now, you may think I have low character because I committed infidelity. I cannot possibly convey to you how miserable, trapped, young, alone, and incredibly foolish I was. I also cannot convey the seriously skanky, heinous, and downright sketchy shyte the ex did on a regular basis.
> 
> I have actually had a_ priest_ tell me "What you did was technically wrong, but given the circumstances..."
> 
> I've been with DH 16 years now and have never cheated on him. Nor would I.
> 
> 
> 
> And the truth is that leaving someone you don't love or are completely incompatible with is actually a mercy for both.
> 
> One (wo)man's trash is another (wo)man's treasure. Somewhere out there is another who will pick up that "unwanted" spouse and love him/her the way s/he deserves.
> 
> There's a lid for every pot. My ex is remarried to a woman that is his perfect match. Their lives are a hot mess, but they seem to love each other in their way.


I assure you I don't know you and have no desire to judge you, or your choices in life. 
How I feel about WalkawAy wives and what "I" consider a WalkawAy wife has nothing to do with you or your marriage. 
I am happy for you and everyone else that has found a love that lasts with someone. I hope I can find the same, and am happy because I believe I have.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Starstarfish

> So what changed and why? To not consider this is to walk away from responsibility which is convenient but a trait I'm looking to avoid in the future.


So if you consider it, and the issue is you have a spouse who has changed to drastically or no longer wants to meet you at least half way to try what should you do? You cannot indeed force another person to change, all you can do is decide on boundaries and consequences. 

Is the more importance lesson to children that a marriage potentially means endlessly suffering in the name of responsibility or not teaching learned co-dependence but some sense of self worth?


----------



## Evinrude58

Starstarfish said:


> So if you consider it, and the issue is you have a spouse who has changed to drastically or no longer wants to meet you at least half way to try what should you do? You cannot indeed force another person to change, all you can do is decide on boundaries and consequences.
> 
> Is the more importance lesson to children that a marriage potentially means endlessly suffering in the name of responsibility or not teaching learned co-dependence but some sense of self worth?


I think the point is that one should not get married if they feel like it's not convenient down the road, one just ends the relationship leaving the other spouse hanging. Some folks consider marriage a lifelong commitment and not a casual relationship that ends when it's no longer fun, identifying excuse after excuse why it's ok.
There's a difference between being miserable, and just looking for greener grass. It's the greener grass seekers I avoid.

Nobody is expected to re
Ain in a marriage where they are in misery. But sometimes the misery is self-inflicted. Ie, green grass munchers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Starstarfish

And you know enough about the details of every relationship to identify "green grass munchers?"

People will spin the same story in dozens of different ways and the only thing different is how people present it or themselves. Just because you present a better story doesn't mean you were more "pure."

Just seems like more labeling to want to determine who was more "wrong."


----------



## Evinrude58

I'm a good listener.... In most cases, I don't think it's hard to figure out relatively quickly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Starstarfish

If people were that able to figure out what people were like purely by what they say, the entire political system would collapse.

Even if you are able to determine "low character green grass munchers" who would actually want other people to be stuck with those people? Does someone honestly want to stay married to someone purely because they feel you are an obligation? What kind of relationship is that actually going to be?


----------



## MJJEAN

Ynot said:


> Each of us is the sum total of our own responses to all of the experiences we have had. I don't care what attribute you ascribe to being a "core value", the simple fact is that a living breathing human being will change upon each experience.


Core values are NOT the same things as core personality traits. Core personality traits are fixed. 

When people start talking about "he changed!" or "she's not the same person!" what they're usually talking about are not core changes, but changes in routine or interest. 



Shoto1984 said:


> Fair enough but what is a commitment when all it takes is "that was a dumb choice" to wipe it out? If there are children involved should they be made to suffer for your "young and dumb" choice?


What's with the assumption that kids suffer in a divorce? Sure, some do. But certainly not all.

And, frankly, life comes with uncertainties, changes, and it's fair share of cruddy situations. Are we supposed to shield the little darlings from reality until we shove them out into it completely unprepared?



Shoto1984 said:


> The point is the two people seemed to believe they were compatible at some point thus the marriage (discounting marriage fraud or the pressure of a pregnancy etc) So what changed and why? To not consider this is to walk away from responsibility which is convenient but a trait I'm looking to avoid in the future.


Just because two people once believed they were compatible doesn't mean they were actually compatible. Belief =/= reality.

And convenience? Really? It's inconvenient if Spouse A breaks something Spouse B has to fix on an already busy dat. It's flat out mental and emotional torture to live in close quarters and tolerate the "affections" of someone you are not in love with, not sexually attracted to, and do not want to have as a mate.



Evinrude58 said:


> I assure you I don't know you and have no desire to judge you, or your choices in life.
> How I feel about WalkawAy wives and what "I" consider a WalkawAy wife has nothing to do with you or your marriage.
> *I am happy for you and everyone else that has found a love that lasts with someone. I hope I can find the same, and am happy because I believe I have.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And loads of WAS felt the same way, once upon a time.



Evinrude58 said:


> I think the point is that one should not get married if they feel like it's not convenient down the road, one just ends the relationship leaving the other spouse hanging. Some folks consider marriage a lifelong commitment and not a casual relationship that ends when it's no longer fun, identifying excuse after excuse why it's ok.
> There's a difference between being miserable, and just looking for greener grass. It's the greener grass seekers I avoid.
> 
> Nobody is expected to re
> Ain in a marriage where they are in misery. But sometimes the misery is self-inflicted. Ie, green grass munchers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There we are with that convenience thing again. 

Again, it's not about convenience or the relationship no longer being fun or exciting. It's about the relationship being _nonexistent _on one side. 

Any former husband or wife who one day looked at their spouse and thought "I am not attracted to nor do I love this person and I would be happier without him/her in my life." could easily be accused of "green grass munching". HINT: Sometimes, the grass IS greener. If you define green grass as actually feeling emotion and physical attraction. Which seem to be the bare minimums of a non-platonic relationship.

We tell ourselves that, as long as we don't "do anything wrong" (cheat, lie, neglect, abuse etc) our marriages will work out. When the truth is that no one has to do anything wrong for a marriage to end. 

We can control our behavior, but we cannot control how someone else feels about us. Any one of us could have a spouse that loses romantic love and/or attraction for us and decides to leave. I think the reason WAS are such a debated topic is people don't want to think it could happen to them, either as the WA or the one left behind.


----------



## GusPolinski

Satya said:


> I suppose you could call me a walkaway. My marriage was becoming a roommate situation, I was not attracted to my H due to resentment (he was not very emotionally supportive and I felt like a single person for years), but right at the point I was going to say "MC or I'm done," *he told me he was going to change gender.*
> 
> So, I can't know if I would have actually been a walkaway, but sometimes people do really grow apart, as my ex and I did. We married young, we had no kids though we tried, but we didn't have a bad life,we were both decent, caring people.
> 
> So, not all walkaways are going to be as you assume. We all come with a story.


Uhhh... I'd imagine that you _ran_ away.


----------



## Ynot

MJJEAN said:


> *We tell ourselves that, as long as we don't "do anything wrong" (cheat, lie, neglect, abuse etc) our marriages will work out. When the truth is that no one has to do anything wrong for a marriage to end.*
> 
> We can control our behavior, but we cannot control how someone else feels about us. Any one of us could have a spouse that loses romantic love and/or attraction for us and decides to leave. I think the reason WAS are such a debated topic is people don't want to think it could happen to them, either as the WA or the one left behind.


This seems to be where the disconnect for some lies. It isn't neccessarily any thing they did or didn't do nor anything their ex did or didn't do. It just happens. 

The idea that we can know how we will feel about ourselves, our SOs our lot in life, our marriages 30 years into the future is just ludicrous to me.


----------



## Ynot

Shoto1984 said:


> Fair enough but what is a commitment when all it takes is "that was a dumb choice" to wipe it out? If there are children involved should they be made to suffer for your "young and dumb" choice?


Who said the children should have to suffer for your "young and dumb" choices unless you choose to make them suffer by allowing them to grow up in a sham marriage where they come to think that staying together out of obligation should come before seeking happiness for yourself?
I just don't understand this idea of staying together out of some obligation. To me it is just an excuse to remain angry and bitter instead of just accepting the fact that it didn't work out the way you planned. 
As I have said a million times I don't want some one to be with me out of obligation - I want them to be with me because they want to be with me. If you want to teach your children anything - teach them to honor themselves enough to want some one to be with them because that some one wants to be with them.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

MJJEAN said:


> We tell ourselves that, as long as we don't "do anything wrong" (cheat, lie, neglect, abuse etc) our marriages will work out.


We do tell ourselves this, but it just isnt true. I know first hand, sadly. I was a faithful, kind wife to my second H. I didnt cheat, never went out partying and carrying on, never talked nasty to him or insulted him, I worked full time....to this day I have no explanation as to why he turned on me the way he did. The only thing I have is that he came to hate women...really truly hates us. I will give him that he got majorly fvcked over by his ex wife, something that was life changing and heart breaking. But I paid the price for that. I wasnt a WAW because he was purposely driving me away... but at the same time he never figured I would leave. You can only be insulted and walk on eggshells for so long.


----------



## welldusted

Just to give these people some benefit of the doubt -- how is a divorced person supposed to describe what went wrong in their marriage on a first date in a way that doesn't sound unpalatable? Maybe they just don't want to get into much detail. 

Also, I find it more forgivable if, for example, they married young and no kids were involved. There are people for whom the grass is always greener, and then there are people who make a mistake, realize it, and don't make the same mistake again. My mom, as it happens, had a brief, childless marriage before she met my dad. It didn't work, but she has stuck by my dad for almost 40 years.


----------



## Evinrude58

Starstarfish said:


> If people were that able to figure out what people were like purely by what they say, the entire political system would collapse.
> 
> Even if you are able to determine "low character green grass munchers" who would actually want other people to be stuck with those people? Does someone honestly want to stay married to someone purely because they feel you are an obligation? What kind of relationship is that actually going to be?


Love isn't something that is supposed to be out of one's control. Marriage is something that requires effort to maintain-- effort taken out of love for one another.

Yes, I think everyone fears marrying a person that can "wake up one morning and have no love or attraction for the other", for no Apparent reason, or at leaSt a good reason.
People who are capable of that, I'm not interested in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Evinrude58

Ynot said:


> This seems to be where the disconnect for some lies. It isn't neccessarily any thing they did or didn't do nor anything their ex did or didn't do. It just happens.
> 
> The idea that we can know how we will feel about ourselves, our SOs our lot in life, our marriages 30 years into the future is just ludicrous to me.


It isn't something that they did or didn't do, it just happened....

Lol, that's the exact kind of comment that I'm talking about hearing from people and deciding to look elsewhere. Who would want to be married to a person that is such a flake that they for no apparent reason, could wake up and decide they no longer love the other person?

NOT ME! I hear that kind of stuff, I keep looking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ynot

Evinrude58 said:


> It isn't something that they did or didn't do, it just happened....
> 
> Lol, that's the exact kind of comment that I'm talking about hearing from people and deciding to look elsewhere. Who would want to be married to a person that is such a flake that they for no apparent reason, could wake up and decide they no longer love the other person?
> 
> NOT ME! I hear that kind of stuff, I keep looking.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then you will be looking forever. Because you can not control what someone thinks, how some one feels or what they wake up and decide. Now, or in the future. And for that matter, you have no idea, what you will think or feel or decide in 10, 20 or 30 years from now because YOU will have changed as well.
And again, you mention for no APPARENT reason. Perhaps to you there is no apparent reason, but I think for them it is all too apparent, which is why they decide to do what they do.
Eternal love is an ideal, but change is a constant reality.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

Evinrude58 said:


> It isn't something that they did or didn't do, it just happened....


I never believe that when I hear it either. Things don't just 'happen.' They get that way because of a series of choices. My ex's only explanation for cheating on me was that the affair "just happened."

Yeah right.


----------



## Sammy64

arbitrator said:


> *You did good, @Sammy64! I'm absolutely proud of you!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have GREAT Role models..


----------



## Ynot

Sammy64 said:


> I have GREAT Roll models..


Were they bakers? :laugh:


----------



## Sammy64

Ynot said:


> Were they bakers? :laugh:


The best kind..


----------



## Ynot

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I never believe that when I hear it either. Things don't just 'happen.' They get that way because of a series of choices. My ex's only explanation for cheating on me was that the affair "just happened."
> 
> Yeah right.


Except for the fact that you have it backwards, I would agree with you. The comment you quoted had more to do with the person being left than the person doing in the leaving.
In fact when employed by the person doing the leaving it is just an excuse, because the fact is that there is ALWAYS a reason, whether it is apparent to you or not. Often, the excuse that "it just happened" is employed by lazy, stupid or cowardly people to avoid accepting the responsibility of their own actions.
But again, none of us can control the actions of others, we can only control our own responses to those actions. You can choose to be angry at those who are too lazy, stupid of cowardly, or you can choose to accept it as the gift it is.
The person who does that to you, has done you the favor of revealing themselves. You have the opportunity to find someone who is truly into you and not have to settle for someone who is just with you out of of obligation.
Somethings do just happen, but everything that happens serves a purpose. Live and learn or stay stuck and suffer.


----------



## arbitrator

Sammy64 said:


> I have GREAT Role models..


*Well Sammy, when you find out who those role models are, please give me a call, so I can use them too!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MRR

SadSamIAm said:


> I am thinking that there are very few actual WAWs.
> 
> The husband may feel she is a WAW and tell everyone how surprised that she just up and left.
> 
> But I am guessing the WAW will have a different story. How she told him for years to stop doing x, y, & z or that he needed to do x, y, and z. That she got tired of asking. Knew he was never going to change. So she finally had enough and left.


That's an easy way to shift the blame. In my instance, my wife (at the time), who WAS a walk away wife, said, "I never deserved you anyway". 

I would surmise there are many WAWs, and there is a ton of literature out there about WAWs and mid life crisis, which shows they are in fact walk away wives and there is no exterior reason other than they just wanted to not be married. I dont blame people in bad relationships/marriages for trying to find happiness, but to say there are very few WAWs is inaccurate. Im quite sure there are MANY cheating husbands who could give you a really convincing list for cheating too. 

Oh, my wife checked every box for mid life crisis, AND i later found out was talking to another guy. Was that my fault? Im going to say, no thanks, to taking the blame for that. I wasnt perfect but that was on her regardless of any complaints she may have had.


----------



## SadSamIAm

MRR said:


> That's an easy way to shift the blame. In my instance, my wife (at the time), who WAS a walk away wife, said, "I never deserved you anyway".
> 
> I would surmise there are many WAWs, and there is a ton of literature out there about WAWs and mid life crisis, which shows they are in fact walk away wives and there is no exterior reason other than they just wanted to not be married. I dont blame people in bad relationships/marriages for trying to find happiness, but to say there are very few WAWs is inaccurate. Im quite sure there are MANY cheating husbands who could give you a really convincing list for cheating too.
> 
> Oh, my wife checked every box for mid life crisis, AND i later found out was talking to another guy. Was that my fault? Im going to say, no thanks, to taking the blame for that. I wasnt perfect but that was on her regardless of any complaints she may have had.


What would your wife say? 

Would she say that you guys had a perfect marriage and that she just left for no reason?

My point is the person that is walked out on feels there was no reason. Just a WAW wife!. But the person leaving feels like there was a reason. Even though you don't agree.


----------



## Ynot

Let's see there were no "apparent" reasons and now there were no "exterior reasons". Which may be true, but to the person feeling the reasons they may be very clear and very real. I am not trying to assign blame or say either side should feel guilty. Regardless of the reason, whether apparent or not, there was a reason and that is all that matters. It happened! You can sit and hold on to the anger and bitterness saying he/she is responsible or you can accept that it happened and make the most of your life going forward - because you cannot change the past and you cannot control what someone else thinks or does.


----------



## MRR

SadSamIAm said:


> What would your wife say?
> 
> Would she say that you guys had a perfect marriage and that she just left for no reason?
> 
> My point is the person that is walked out on feels there was no reason. Just a WAW wife!. But the person leaving feels like there was a reason. Even though you don't agree.


Yes, she was a walk away wife. Absolutely. there are plenty of them-- men and women-- out there. Yes, she rewrote the history of the marriage to justify it, but the gist of it was not substantiated and her best friends called to tell me they did not believe or support her reasoning.

This is my wife about 2 years ago (she is in a worse state now, FYI and regrets the whole thing, including the divorce) 

***The Mid-Life Crisis Feelings

The midlife crisis can become an almost intolerable experience and for those having a hard time with this transitional stage the following feelings may be experienced:

Lacking direction, lost and 'all at sea'

Regret at lost opportunities, unfulfilled potential. 

Unhappiness with life, and with the lifestyle that may have given them with happiness for many years. 

Boredom with people and things that may have been of interest to them before. 

*Feeling a need for adventure and change. *

Questioning the choices, they have made in their lives and the validity of decisions they made years before.

Confusion about what they are worth, who they are and where they are going. 

*Anger at their partner, including blaming them for making them feel tied down. *

Inability to make, or stick to, decisions about where they want to go with their life. 

*Feelings of doubt they ever loved their partner and resentment over marriage or commitments made. *

*A strong and irresistible desire to have a new and passionate, intimate relationship. *

Feeling this is the last chance. If I don't 'escape' now I never will.


----------



## Ynot

MRR said:


> Yes, she was a walk away wife. Absolutely. there are plenty of them-- men and women-- out there. Yes, she rewrote the history of the marriage to justify it, but the gist of it was not substantiated and her best friends called to tell me they did not believe or support her reasoning.
> 
> This is my wife about 2 years ago (she is in a worse state now, FYI and regrets the whole thing, including the divorce)
> 
> ***The Mid-Life Crisis Feelings
> 
> The midlife crisis can become an almost intolerable experience and for those having a hard time with this transitional stage the following feelings may be experienced:
> 
> Lacking direction, lost and 'all at sea'
> 
> Regret at lost opportunities, unfulfilled potential.
> 
> Unhappiness with life, and with the lifestyle that may have given them with happiness for many years.
> 
> Boredom with people and things that may have been of interest to them before.
> 
> *Feeling a need for adventure and change. *
> 
> Questioning the choices, they have made in their lives and the validity of decisions they made years before.
> 
> Confusion about what they are worth, who they are and where they are going.
> 
> *Anger at their partner, including blaming them for making them feel tied down. *
> 
> Inability to make, or stick to, decisions about where they want to go with their life.
> 
> *Feelings of doubt they ever loved their partner and resentment over marriage or commitments made. *
> 
> *A strong and irresistible desire to have a new and passionate, intimate relationship. *
> 
> Feeling this is the last chance. If I don't 'escape' now I never will.


Yep and every single one of those things are or could have been her reason(s). But it doesn't matter. It happened. Had she not left it might have been for a dozen other reasons that grew out of her suppressing those reasons. Or she could have stuck around out of obligation and gone thru the motions until either you or she dropped dead - what a life!
She left, it sucked, you got hurt. But there is nothing you can do about it. Accept that you are better off without her and get on with making the rest of your life better than it was before!
Playing the blame game is just another way to hold on to hurt and anger.


----------



## SadSamIAm

MRR said:


> Yes, she was a walk away wife. Absolutely. there are plenty of them-- men and women-- out there. Yes, she rewrote the history of the marriage to justify it, but the gist of it was not substantiated and her best friends called to tell me they did not believe or support her reasoning.
> 
> This is my wife about 2 years ago (she is in a worse state now, FYI and regrets the whole thing, including the divorce)
> 
> ***The Mid-Life Crisis Feelings
> 
> The midlife crisis can become an almost intolerable experience and for those having a hard time with this transitional stage the following feelings may be experienced:
> 
> Lacking direction, lost and 'all at sea'
> 
> Regret at lost opportunities, unfulfilled potential.
> 
> Unhappiness with life, and with the lifestyle that may have given them with happiness for many years.
> 
> Boredom with people and things that may have been of interest to them before.
> 
> *Feeling a need for adventure and change. *
> 
> Questioning the choices, they have made in their lives and the validity of decisions they made years before.
> 
> Confusion about what they are worth, who they are and where they are going.
> 
> *Anger at their partner, including blaming them for making them feel tied down. *
> 
> Inability to make, or stick to, decisions about where they want to go with their life.
> 
> *Feelings of doubt they ever loved their partner and resentment over marriage or commitments made. *
> 
> *A strong and irresistible desire to have a new and passionate, intimate relationship. *
> 
> Feeling this is the last chance. If I don't 'escape' now I never will.


All of these things could be the reasons your wife would say she left the marriage. She didn't just walk away. She made the conscious decision to leave. She found someone knew.

And yes, like many people who leave a marriage, they regret it. They thought they were missing out on something. They thought things would be better. They screwed up. They were wrong.


----------



## MRR

Oh believe me, i have accepted it and moved on happily.


----------



## MRR

she has found several 'someone new's by the way. none of have been quite right (frankly they have been a huge step down from me and she knows it; she just put a restraining order on the last someone new)


----------



## Ynot

MRR said:


> Oh believe me, i have accepted it and moved on happily.


Good for you!


----------



## Marduk

I fundamentally disagree that there isn't really such a thing as a WAW.

First of all, I have experienced four of them in my life. I was married to one, and have been a friend or family member to the marriage of three others.

And the MO is always the same. It has a signature.

#1 wife becomes quickly and increasingly arrogant and independent of the marriage. Focus is outside of it and how everything else is better than being married.

#2 husband tries to improve things, wife won't tell them what is wrong, or provides multiple contradictory reasons for the newfound dissatisfaction. Attempts at resolution or improvement -- even if it's what the wife says she wants -- leads to an acceleration of #1.

#3 wife announces that she is leaving, either temporarily "for space" or "because she's been unhappy for a long time"

#4 wife vanishes from the social radar. Close friends and family remain isolated from her, and she will not yeild answers or explanations for the separation or what she is currently doing.

#5 after a period of a few months, the wife re-appears with a brand new (usually younger) set of friends, and with a totally new persona, and it is revealed that they are in a new "more real" relationship. Old friends and family are treated superficially, they may be ejected altogether if they persist in viewing the former wife in the old personality model.

Basically... The "Eat Pray Love" scenario.

It is painful to watch, but very easy to see.

There is sometimes an update that comes out months or years later:
#6 they have been planning their 'exit' for some time, and it was timed for their greatest benefit. Potential solutions to the relationship problems were stall tactics, not true ways to reconcile. There was no way to reconcile, it simply needed to proceed at a given pace for the wife, and that's what happened. The sequence of events was planned well in advance, and this is part of the reason that old support systems are cast aside -- because they were indeed part of the deception. Real reasons for the exit are still vague in the WAW mind, and put in terms such as spiritual fulfillment, soul mates, or a generalized sense of 'more being out there.'


----------



## BetrayedDad

I'd add a few more symptoms:

#7 In addition to newer / younger friends #5, there may or may not be an OM as well (This one is optional). In fact, he may have been the catalyst. A new relationship much like the new friends feeds the ego and lends to the feeling of being "reborn" and perpetuating the fantasy. She will compartmentalize both to such a degree it is almost as if she is leading a double life. Red flags will be present but #1 is utilized to mislead and stall until OM commits.

#8 Welfare of the kids, career, everything that has been build up to that point from the old relationship becomes utterly inconsequential. The allure of the "new life" takes precedence over everything. As a husband, if you're banking on these things to keep your wife grounded while she slowly starts to pull away from you and you start to give her some of the #3 she asks for, you are in for a world of hurt.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

marduk said:


> I fundamentally disagree that there isn't really such a thing as a WAW.
> 
> First of all, I have experienced four of them in my life. I was married to one, and have been a friend or family member to the marriage of three others.
> 
> And the MO is always the same. It has a signature.
> 
> #1 wife becomes quickly and increasingly arrogant and independent of the marriage. Focus is outside of it and how everything else is better than being married.
> 
> #2 husband tries to improve things, wife won't tell them what is wrong, or provides multiple contradictory reasons for the newfound dissatisfaction. Attempts at resolution or improvement -- even if it's what the wife says she wants -- leads to an acceleration of #1.
> 
> #3 wife announces that she is leaving, either temporarily "for space" or "because she's been unhappy for a long time"
> 
> #4 wife vanishes from the social radar. Close friends and family remain isolated from her, and she will not yeild answers or explanations for the separation or what she is currently doing.
> 
> #5 after a period of a few months, the wife re-appears with a brand new (usually younger) set of friends, and with a totally new persona, and it is revealed that they are in a new "more real" relationship. Old friends and family are treated superficially, they may be ejected altogether if they persist in viewing the former wife in the old personality model.
> 
> Basically... The "Eat Pray Love" scenario.
> 
> It is painful to watch, but very easy to see.
> 
> There is sometimes an update that comes out months or years later:
> #6 they have been planning their 'exit' for some time, and it was timed for their greatest benefit. Potential solutions to the relationship problems were stall tactics, not true ways to reconcile. There was no way to reconcile, it simply needed to proceed at a given pace for the wife, and that's what happened. The sequence of events was planned well in advance, and this is part of the reason that old support systems are cast aside -- because they were indeed part of the deception. Real reasons for the exit are still vague in the WAW mind, and put in terms such as spiritual fulfillment, soul mates, or a generalized sense of 'more being out there.'


This is NOT the MO all the time, not even close. I'm sorry that this is what you experienced. But this is not the way it always happens.


----------



## Evinrude58

Ynot said:


> Yep and every single one of those things are or could have been her reason(s). But it doesn't matter. It happened. Had she not left it might have been for a dozen other reasons that grew out of her suppressing those reasons. Or she could have stuck around out of obligation and gone thru the motions until either you or she dropped dead - what a life!
> She left, it sucked, you got hurt. But there is nothing you can do about it. Accept that you are better off without her and get on with making the rest of your life better than it was before!
> Playing the blame game is just another way to hold on to hurt and anger.


The disconnect here is that you don't seem to understand that everyone does not give in to these "reasons" and "feelings". THey have enough loyalty, character, mental fortitude, whatever, to stay and overcome these things and have a happy marriage in the future.
People that have experienced these walkaways DON'T WANT someone that does not have the character to STAY HAPPILY MARRIED. You toss out things that other people are just weaklings that stay angry and such. Could it be that you have some feelings about this as well? I've moved on, I'm not rotting in self pity... 
But by golly, I'm being a helluva lot more conscious about who I choose for a wife this time. That's what the thread was about!
Not who is angry and weak and wallowing in self pity. It's about who is making sure they don't marry another walkaway and if that is an important factor. I'll guarantee you that an abandoned spouse is certainly checking that out in a potential long term partner. As well they should be. You are right, sometimes you never can tell.
But wrong that one can't eliminate the obvious.


----------



## Evinrude58

Ynot said:


> Except for the fact that you have it backwards, I would agree with you. The comment you quoted had more to do with the person being left than the person doing in the leaving.
> In fact when employed by the person doing the leaving it is just an excuse, because the fact is that there is ALWAYS a reason, whether it is apparent to you or not.* Often, the excuse that "it just happened" is employed by lazy, stupid or cowardly people to avoid accepting the responsibility of their own actions.*
> But again, none of us can control the actions of others, we can only control our own responses to those actions. You can choose to be angry at those who are too lazy, stupid of cowardly, or you can choose to accept it as the gift it is.
> The person who does that to you, has done you the favor of revealing themselves. You have the opportunity to find someone who is truly into you and not have to settle for someone who is just with you out of of obligation.
> Somethings do just happen, but everything that happens serves a purpose. Live and learn or stay stuck and suffer.


My argument you have made for me...... It's EXACTLY those kind of people I want to avoid marrying. If I search forever for one that doesn't have the characteristics you described, so be it.

I'm not complaining about the people that I observe having those characteristics, I'm avoiding them. Yes, it's a matter of being a more careful judge of character.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Evinrude58 said:


> The disconnect here is that you don't seem to understand that everyone does not give in to these "reasons" and "feelings". THey have enough loyalty, character, mental fortitude, whatever, to stay and overcome these things and have a happy marriage in the future.
> People that have experienced these walkaways DON'T WANT someone that does not have the character to STAY HAPPILY MARRIED. You toss out things that other people are just weaklings that stay angry and such. Could it be that you have some feelings about this as well? I've moved on, I'm not rotting in self pity...
> But by golly, I'm being a helluva lot more conscious about who I choose for a wife this time. That's what the thread was about!
> Not who is angry and weak and wallowing in self pity. It's about who is making sure they don't marry another walkaway and if that is an important factor. I'll guarantee you that an abandoned spouse is certainly checking that out in a potential long term partner. As well they should be. You are right, sometimes you never can tell.
> But wrong that one can't eliminate the obvious.


Wow, so loyalty, character and mental fortitude can overcome a partner who treats you like sh!t? Wow. If only I had known how damn weak a person I was by leaving the men who were mentally and emotionally abusing me. Damn, how worthless am I???


----------



## Evinrude58

3Xnocharm said:


> Wow, so loyalty, character and mental fortitude can overcome a partner who treats you like sh!t? Wow. If only I had known how damn weak a person I was by leaving the men who were mentally and emotionally abusing me. Damn, how worthless am I???


Don't make this all about you---- it ISN'T! One is not a walkaway wife if there are DARN GOOD REASONS to divorce, and nobody would say that!!!! How can you not understand this? Do you consider yourself a walkaway wife? Heck, I don't. If a man or woman treats you like garbage, you'd be a fool to stay. But if there is NOT bad treatment, that's another story.

SOme of you are saying there's no such thing as a walkaway wife!!!!?? I think there is. It will be very difficult for you to convince me otherwise.


----------



## Holland

Evinrude58 said:


> The disconnect here is that you don't seem to understand that everyone does not give in to these "reasons" and "feelings". THey have enough loyalty, character, mental fortitude, whatever, to stay and overcome these things and have a happy marriage in the future.
> People that have experienced these walkaways DON'T WANT someone that does not have the character to STAY HAPPILY MARRIED. You toss out things that other people are just weaklings that stay angry and such. Could it be that you have some feelings about this as well? I've moved on, I'm not rotting in self pity...
> *But by golly, I'm being a helluva lot more conscious about who I choose for a wife this time. That's what the thread was about!
> *Not who is angry and weak and wallowing in self pity. It's about who is making sure they don't marry another walkaway and if that is an important factor. I'll guarantee you that an abandoned spouse is certainly checking that out in a potential long term partner. As well they should be. You are right, sometimes you never can tell.
> But wrong that one can't eliminate the obvious.


The thread is about people making judgement calls on a potential dating partner based on one or two meetings. If people want to be more conscious about who they partner up with next time then it is foolish to judge without any real foundation.

Some people believe in walk aways, some people don't. Everyone has different boundaries, experiences etc we could argue that forever and no one will be right or wrong but it doesn't change the point that judging a date on a one liner is self defeating.

Someone mentioned earlier that when they told some women that their ex had cheated on them the potential date was no longer interested. This is part of the same problem, being judged without taking the time to find out more of the story. Those women that had in this case judged may have just missed out on the best man they could have ever met.

Maybe there are too many fish in the sea?


----------



## Evinrude58

I've had some first and second dates recently with (what turned out to be) walk away spouses. These are people who walked away from their marriages (with kids) because they "just weren't happy" or "wasn't feeling fulfilled" or "just wasn't in love anymore" etc. As someone who's ex destroyed our family, I probably predictably, am having a hard time not having negative feelings when I hear this. I can't imagine myself with someone who has done this nor do I feel like taking a chance on someone who has shown this ability.

I'm curious about the perspective of others who have been in similar situations. How much does this kind of history matter to you? Why does it matter more or less than other possible flaws?

Ok, I'll be more concise and to the point:

My perspective is that a person who leaves FOR THE REASONS YOU STATED ABOVE, OP, is not a prospect for me for a long term relationship AT ALL. I also have negative feelings about this as a person who's ex destroyed their family. I think that the phrases you described above are evidence of a person of low character. There are many other observations I make, and assume others do as well, in selecting a possible partner for a long term relationship. It's not ONLY these factors, but certainly those kinds of statements would stand out and probably send me running for cover. 

It matters because these people have no "stay power". They have little loyalty and a low level of commitment. I may be wrong, but I DON'T care! It's up to me to determine who I date, and I'm willing to let one fall through the cracks in an attempt to spend my time with women that I believe are more likely to be people of character. YES, THERE ARE lots of fish in the sea! And I'm lucky in that I have more than one or two choices. I've found a woman whom I believe has excellent character and similar morals, and I'm crazy about her. If she shows herself as not being trustworthy or someone who isn't committed to marriage or won't be willing to stay in the good and BAD times (not ABUSE, just hard times), I will look elsewhere.

I'm over and out in this thread. Apparently people don't even think that some people are of such low character that they can just up and leave with no reason that is APPARENT to others. I do.
For all you guys that are willing to marry a woman that says "I just wasn't in love anymore", or "it just happened" and admit that they were married to a good guy---- GOOD FREAKING LUCK!


----------



## Marduk

3Xnocharm said:


> This is NOT the MO all the time, not even close. I'm sorry that this is what you experienced. But this is not the way it always happens.


explain, please.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

Depending on how you define a WAW, every woman that leaves her marriage is one or none of them are.

When I think of a WAW, I think of someone leaving a good relationship with no warning. The spouse that is left had no idea that anything was wrong. I am guessing this can happen. I just don't think it happens very often.

I believe everyone that leaves a marriage has reasons to do so. And the vast majority show their spouse that they aren't happy in one way or another. 

I think the purpose of the thread is about people been totally committed to a relationship. How much will they fight for their marriage before throwing in the towel? Sadly, nowadays, I believe people leave marriages/relationships too easily. Things get tough and they think everything will be better in another relationship. 

The wife tells her husband to lose weight or she will leave because she is no longer attracted to him. She tells him over and over again and he does nothing about it. When she leaves is she a WAW?

If her husband was 180lbs when she met him but is now 400lbs, is she a WAW?

How about if he was 180 lbs when she met him but is now 200lbs?

Many would say that the person leaving the 400 lb person might be justified. But the person that left the 200lb guy isn't.

You could take out the person's weight and include a multitude of things that someone might leave a marriage over. Could be money, the amount of chores, how much sex, etc. What one person feels is a deal breaker and a reason to leave a relationship, someone else might think they are being unreasonable. One would be considered a WAW and the other would be considered justified in leaving.


----------



## BetrayedDad

marduk said:


> explain, please.


I can... 

Half the women here think they are WAWs because they left a$$hole drunkard abusive husbands. That doesn't make you a WAW, that makes you SMART. 

A WAW is a woman who falls out of love with an otherwise good man for reasons frankly only she knows but never communicates.

Hell they all say as much, "You're a great guy, good father and excellent provider and all however ILYBINILWY....." Then they leave the nice guy.

THAT'S A WAW. Unfathomable? Happens ALL the time.


----------



## Starstarfish

> Hell they all say as much, "You're a great guy, good father and excellent provider and all ILYBINILWY....." Then they take off.


Is that the proper basis for a real relationship though? If she only stays because of the kids or because you are a "great provider" is that really a legit relationship?

I mean ... from what men seem to say on TAM they don't really seem satisfied when that's the only reason a woman stays with them because they "babysit" (AKA watch their own kids) and are seen as a Beta provider. 

So ... which is it?


----------



## Redactus

marduk said:


> I fundamentally disagree that there isn't really such a thing as a WAW....
> 
> And the MO is always the same. It has a signature.


Nailed it!


----------



## BetrayedDad

Starstarfish said:


> Is that the proper basis for a real relationship though? If she only stays because of the kids or because you are a "great provider" is that really a legit relationship?


What more do you want?!? At the end of the day YOU are responsible for your own happiness not him. Only selfish people think you were put on this earth for their amusement.

These are some of the same women who go threw a slew of a-hole boyfriends they were obsessed with because they rode a motorcycle or were in a rock band or the bad boy in high school, etc. before they decide after getting pumped and dumped for the umpteenth time to settle for some beta nice guy because he "looks good on paper". Then after a few years they get BORED because there is no drama anymore so they walk away.

This is why if some woman told me she was truly a WAW on a date, I'd tell her it was nice to meet her, pay the check, leave and not call her again. If she told me she left her husband because he had a drug or alcohol problem that's NOT a WAW to me. That would actually tell me she had some self respect for herself.


----------



## Wolf1974

Holland said:


> The thread is about people making judgement calls on a potential dating partner based on one or two meetings. If people want to be more conscious about who they partner up with next time then it is foolish to judge without any real foundation.
> 
> Some people believe in walk aways, some people don't. Everyone has different boundaries, experiences etc we could argue that forever and no one will be right or wrong but it doesn't change the point that judging a date on a one liner is self defeating.
> 
> Someone mentioned earlier that when they told some women that their ex had cheated on them the potential date was no longer interested. This is part of the same problem, being judged without taking the time to find out more of the story. Those women that had in this case judged may have just missed out on the best man they could have ever met.
> 
> *Maybe there are too many fish in the sea?[*/QUOTE]
> 
> I think their is some truth in this especially with OLD. If someone has a potential red flag early on you don't lose much by just saying "next" and moving on. Having been Single I have adopted the saying finding dates is never hard to find, but a good relationship is. If the options weren't so varied and vast maybe people would settle more. I'm not so sure that's a good thing either. .I Am at point in my life that I have learned from my past and identified what my few absolute deal breakers are and I won't compromise on any of them for any reason.


----------



## bkyln309

Women dont typically just walk away. Its against our biology especially when kids are involved. Usually it has been simmering for years. No one knows what goes on in a house but the people who live there. To judge a new person and their circumstances for being single in a date or two is not wise. Relationships are complicated. It is their past and hopefully they are working to being better in the present. Of course there are exceptions but there is a rule for a reason. Two different people make a different relationship. The outcome may or may not be the same. 

I know in my divorce I lost many of my friends because they thought I walked away from a good man. What they didnt know was the sexless marriage for almost 15 years and all his secret debt that essentially almost bankrupt us twice. It didnt matter he quit his job and refused to work because he was a nice guy who took care of the kids. He basically lied to everyone on the reasons he stayed home. He did gain 100 pounds but that wasnt even an issue in the marriage. 

I never bad mouthed him to friends so when I "walked away" I got the brunt of the abuse and the accusations. There was no other man though I got accused of that (as well as a slew of other things). I tried for 10 years to fix things and he wasnt going to change. The only people who supported the divorce were the pastors who counselled us. They told me I was like a daughter and to get out. I did. And I became the evil woman who broke up our family because no one really knew what was going on. Everyone thought we had a good marriage. But this evil woman is staying in a city where I have no family or friends because my kids need their Dad. I did not have a mid life crisis. I got smart.

I hope no one I date would sit and judge my past relationship because I walked away. It took me 10 years to finally reach the end of the rope and when I did, I moved fast. If someone doesnt want to date me, his loss.


----------



## Marduk

I think part of the problem here is that two (or more) completely different scenarios can look to a husband or an outside observer like the same scenario, when they're not:

Scenario A: Husband doesn't treat his wife well for years, wife gives up trying to get him to change and instead starts planning her exit. Husband thinks things have gotten better because she's stopped complaining, and is then surprised when she walks away months or years later with a fully planned and strategic exit. He's left thinking she's diabolical and he was used.

Scenario B: Husband treats wife well, everything seems to be OK, wife is caught by a flight of fancy (another man, a spiritual endeavor, a sense of longing for something else) and she up and leaves. This also happens, and for the husband, he's left thinking she's diabolical and he was used.

Two totally different scenarios, and yet to the husband and perhaps even close people to the marriage, they can look and feel very similar.

The problem in scenario B is obvious: wife committed to something she shouldn't have, because she lacks the ability to form long-term commitments, perhaps.

The problem in scenario A is more subtle: the wife is understandibly miffed because she was the wronged one and is now being blamed, but the price for a Machiavellian exit is that it isn't always honest nor is it as clean as one would like to think. It is one thing to say "Husband, if you don't change X and Y I'm going to leave" and mean it. It's well and truly another to say "I'm going to make a 5 year plan to leave without telling anybody because he won't change X and Y." Which is one thing I've seen happen -- an actual five year slow move of money, goods, setting up a rental house to go to, splitting their social lives up -- all without the husband (who admittedly was very dim) being the wiser.

Who now goes around with the same sob story -- if only I was given a chance I would have changed!


----------



## anewstart60

bkyln309 said:


> Women dont typically just walk away. Its against our biology especially when kids are involved. Usually it has been simmering for years. No one knows what goes on in a house but the people who live there. To judge a new person and their circumstances for being single in a date or two is not wise. Relationships are complicated. It is their past and hopefully they are working to being better in the present. Of course there are exceptions but there is a rule for a reason. Two different people make a different relationship. The outcome may or may not be the same.
> 
> I know in my divorce I lost many of my friends because they thought I walked away from a good man. What they didnt know was the sexless marriage for almost 15 years and all his secret debt that essentially almost bankrupt us twice. It didnt matter he quit his job and refused to work because he was a nice guy who took care of the kids. He basically lied to everyone on the reasons he stayed home. He did gain 100 pounds but that wasnt even an issue in the marriage.
> 
> I never bad mouthed him to friends so when I "walked away" I got the brunt of the abuse and the accusations. There was no other man though I got accused of that (as well as a slew of other things). I tried for 10 years to fix things and he wasnt going to change. The only people who supported the divorce were the pastors who counselled us. They told me I was like a daughter and to get out. I did. And I became the evil woman who broke up our family because no one really knew what was going on. Everyone thought we had a good marriage. But this evil woman is staying in a city where I have no family or friends because my kids need their Dad. I did not have a mid life crisis. I got smart.
> 
> I hope no one I date would sit and judge my past relationship because I walked away. It took me 10 years to finally reach the end of the rope and when I did, I moved fast. If someone doesnt want to date me, his loss.


Bravo! This is the one post that makes the most sense to me in this entire thread.
Good for you bkyln309!


----------



## TheGoodGuy

bkyln309 said:


> I know in my divorce I lost many of my friends because they thought I walked away from a good man. What they didnt know was the sexless marriage for almost 15 years and all his secret debt that essentially almost bankrupt us twice. It didnt matter he quit his job and refused to work because he was a nice guy who took care of the kids. He basically lied to everyone on the reasons he stayed home. He did gain 100 pounds but that wasnt even an issue in the marriage.
> 
> I never bad mouthed him to friends so when I "walked away" I got the brunt of the abuse and the accusations. There was no other man though I got accused of that (as well as a slew of other things). * I tried for 10 years to fix things and he wasnt going to change.* The only people who supported the divorce were the *pastors who counselled us*. They told me I was like a daughter and to get out. I did. And I became the evil woman who broke up our family because no one really knew what was going on. Everyone thought we had a good marriage. But this evil woman is staying in a city where I have no family or friends because my kids need their Dad. I did not have a mid life crisis. I got smart.
> 
> I hope no one I date would sit and judge my past relationship because I walked away. It took me 10 years to finally reach the end of the rope and when I did, I moved fast. If someone doesnt want to date me, his loss.


I don't see this as WAS behavior. You tried, over many years, and got counseling before ending the marriage. That's not what I would consider a WAS.


----------



## BetrayedDad

bkyln309 said:


> Women dont typically just walk away. Its against our biology especially when kids are involved. Usually it has been simmering for years. No one knows what goes on in a house but the people who live there. To judge a new person and their circumstances for being single in a date or two is not wise. Relationships are complicated. It is their past and hopefully they are working to being better in the present. Of course there are exceptions but there is a rule for a reason. Two different people make a different relationship. The outcome may or may not be the same.
> 
> I know in my divorce I lost many of my friends because they thought I walked away from a good man. What they didnt know was the sexless marriage for almost 15 years and all his secret debt that essentially almost bankrupt us twice. It didnt matter he quit his job and refused to work because he was a nice guy who took care of the kids. He basically lied to everyone on the reasons he stayed home. He did gain 100 pounds but that wasnt even an issue in the marriage.
> 
> I never bad mouthed him to friends so when I "walked away" I got the brunt of the abuse and the accusations. There was no other man though I got accused of that (as well as a slew of other things). I tried for 10 years to fix things and he wasnt going to change. The only people who supported the divorce were the pastors who counselled us. They told me I was like a daughter and to get out. I did. And I became the evil woman who broke up our family because no one really knew what was going on. Everyone thought we had a good marriage. But this evil woman is staying in a city where I have no family or friends because my kids need their Dad. I did not have a mid life crisis. I got smart.
> 
> I hope no one I date would sit and judge my past relationship because I walked away. It took me 10 years to finally reach the end of the rope and when I did, I moved fast. If someone doesnt want to date me, his loss.


I don't consider you a WAW. No reasonable person should be expected to tolerate that.

A WAW is what @marduk describes in scenario B. At least to me anyways.


----------



## Vinnydee

A person's past behavior is a very good indicator of their future behavior. Any person in law enforcement or the prison systems knows this, as do all Psychologist. I would never have a relationship with a person who has demonstrated or stated that they behaved in a way that I do not find acceptable. Yet, I know way too many woman who think they can change or fix a man. That rarely happens. Adults do not change their basic nature or morals. 

Why would you believe someone you know is a liar? Why would you not think that a man could walk away from you too after proving that he has already done it. To me, a walk away spouse is a coward who is unable to face the problem and resolve it legally and fairly.

There should be a public service ad on TV that says,"Run, not walk away from walkaway spouses". When it comes to adults, what you see is what you get and anyone who is willing to overlook bad past behavior, is doomed to suffer from the same fate. Two of my male friends were dating married woman who were cheating. When they got discovered and lost their husbands, they married my friends. In both cases, their new wives were cheating on them within 5 years. Love can blind people and we all tend to want to believe things simply because they are things that fit into what we want to believe and do.


----------



## Ynot

Evinrude58 said:


> The disconnect here is that you don't seem to understand that everyone does not give in to these "reasons" and "feelings". THey have enough loyalty, character, mental fortitude, whatever, to stay and overcome these things and have a happy marriage in the future.
> 
> IOW they stick around out of obligation, because you think they should place your happiness ahead of their own
> 
> People that have experienced these walkaways DON'T WANT someone that does not have the character to STAY HAPPILY MARRIED.
> 
> I did experience a WAW, in fact very recently, after a 24 year marriage. In the aftermath, I have come to understand that obligation does not make you HAPPILY MARRIED
> 
> You toss out things that other people are just weaklings that stay angry and such. Could it be that you have some feelings about this as well? I've moved on, I'm not rotting in self pity...
> 
> Apparently you are still holding on to some self-pity and anger because you aren't even willing to learn more after just deciding that someone is a WAW. I've never said anyone was weak. However, there is a difference in recognizing one still has self pity and some one acting as if they don't.
> 
> But by golly, I'm being a helluva lot more conscious about who I choose for a wife this time. That's what the thread was about!
> Not who is angry and weak and wallowing in self pity. It's about who is making sure they don't marry another walkaway and if that is an important factor. I'll guarantee you that an abandoned spouse is certainly checking that out in a potential long term partner. As well they should be. You are right, sometimes you never can tell.
> But wrong that one can't eliminate the obvious.


And I have said you are free to pick and choose who ever you are with, but stop grandstanding like you are healed and healthy, because your attitude screams otherwise! 
My ex left me, she was a WAW. But you know what? I don't judge anybody else by her actions. Every person has a story. Every person has a mind of their own. You can't control how someone feels now, you sure as hell can't control how they will feel in a year or two or ten or twenty.


----------



## Ynot

Evinrude58 said:


> Don't make this all about you---- it ISN'T! One is not a walkaway wife if there are DARN GOOD REASONS to divorce, and nobody would say that!!!!
> But YOU are the one who does not understand that! You keep saying there were "no apparent reasons" but to the person leaving they were very apparent, it is just that you refuse to accept them as such because you seem to imagine that obligation should trump everything else
> How can you not understand this? Do you consider yourself a walkaway wife? Heck, I don't. If a man or woman treats you like garbage, you'd be a fool to stay. But if there is NOT bad treatment, that's another story.
> 
> SOme of you are saying there's no such thing as a walkaway wife!!!!?? I think there is. It will be very difficult for you to convince me otherwise.


----------



## Ynot

BetrayedDad said:


> What more do you want?!? At the end of the day YOU are responsible for your own happiness not him. Only selfish people think you were put on this earth for their amusement.
> 
> .


But according to some obligation trumps happiness and she should have just stuck around because after all, he was a nice guy, a good provider, a good husband, etc etc.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Ynot said:


> But according to some obligation trumps happiness and she should have just stuck around because after all, he was a nice guy, a good provider, a good husband, etc etc.


No, she shouldn't of married him in the first place.

This doesn't happen on a whim despite the lies she tells herself. 

She knew she was settling for less than what she wanted but he looked good "on paper".


----------



## Wolf1974

bkyln309 said:


> Women dont typically just walk away. Its against our biology especially when kids are involved. Usually it has been simmering for years. No one knows what goes on in a house but the people who live there. To judge a new person and their circumstances for being single in a date or two is not wise. Relationships are complicated. It is their past and hopefully they are working to being better in the present. Of course there are exceptions but there is a rule for a reason. Two different people make a different relationship. The outcome may or may not be the same.
> 
> I know in my divorce I lost many of my friends because they thought I walked away from a good man. What they didnt know was the sexless marriage for almost 15 years and all his secret debt that essentially almost bankrupt us twice. It didnt matter he quit his job and refused to work because he was a nice guy who took care of the kids. He basically lied to everyone on the reasons he stayed home. He did gain 100 pounds but that wasnt even an issue in the marriage.
> 
> I never bad mouthed him to friends so when I "walked away" I got the brunt of the abuse and the accusations. There was no other man though I got accused of that (as well as a slew of other things). I tried for 10 years to fix things and he wasnt going to change. The only people who supported the divorce were the pastors who counselled us. They told me I was like a daughter and to get out. I did. And I became the evil woman who broke up our family because no one really knew what was going on. Everyone thought we had a good marriage. But this evil woman is staying in a city where I have no family or friends because my kids need their Dad. I did not have a mid life crisis. I got smart.
> 
> I hope no one I date would sit and judge my past relationship because I walked away. It took me 10 years to finally reach the end of the rope and when I did, I moved fast. If someone doesnt want to date me, his loss.


Agree with others you are not what I would call as WAW. To me a WAW is someone who isn't upset or even unhappy with the current relationship. They just decide it isn't for them anymore and quit it. Some decide to have affairs, others just file for divorce. Why they do it insert reason here........... Cause it will vary.

And you can bet potential dates are going to judge you. And sometimes that judgment is going to be based on your past and honestly I do think it should be. I know my past is also judged and also it should be. I know one of the things my GF loves about me is my strength of conviction. She knows that had their been a way to save my marriage I would have...I don't give up without a fight. She respects that because she was also left and cheated on. We are a good match


----------



## Marduk

BetrayedDad said:


> I don't consider you a WAW. No reasonable person should be expected to tolerate that.
> 
> A WAW is what @marduk describes in scenario B. At least to me anyways.


My point was that functionally A and B appear the same.

I dislike both scenarios for different reasons.

If you're unhappy with your marriage, say so. If you're planning on leaving, say so.

Being chronically unhappy in your marriage does not give you free licence to plan a graceful hidden exit strategy for yourself at the expense of your partner's happiness or financial well-being -- stacking the deck of cards while your partner isn't looking. It's essentially the 'pearl harbour' scenario.

That makes you a schemer instead of just a flight risk.

I'd rather not be with either one, but the schemer is actually more dangerous -- because they're capable of planning, foresight, long-term deception and only looking out for number one -- all while feeling justified or perhaps even superior for doing so.


----------



## MRR

Anyone who says there are no WAS's or 'women just dont walk away' are....WRONG. 

I am not talking about people who are mistreated or abused. 

My wife flat out walked away. She mirrored most of the mid life crisis traits, and gave me the ILYBINILWY speech, and bottom line she was allured by NOT BEING MARRIED. Coincidentally she had a friend who was separated and move into her own apt and saw how 'fun' it was to have those days you could party all night and the ex would have the kids that night/next day. The grass is greener. 

Yes, she did make some weak attempts to her family about why it needed to end but those were shut down pretty quickly as everyone we were around saw clearly how good I treated her and our kids. 

She was a walk away wife, plain and simple. 

Now- to go back to the original post and the concern about dating women and the reasons why he may not to date what appears to be another walk away wife-- totally legitimate but as I stated earlier I think many of the women we date in this range-- mid 30s to late 40s (or even more)-- and very possibly men too-- are going to be a sort of walk away spouse. Does that bother me? Yes, a bit because 5 years into the marriage when things get stale, or contentious, or you are getting attention from someone at work-- are you going to 'walk away' or are you going to stay committed? 

I get the OP's question and why he would ask. I do not know the answer. I have had an on/off FWB situation since last spring with a woman that is similar to my wife, a walk away wife. If this ever evolved and had the potential to get serious, I would question her loyalty, at least a bit. 

I do not know how to completely avoid meeting someone like this and frankly, dont despise them for whatever happened in the past. But I can see how this could come up with the OP.


----------



## Evinrude58

Ynot said:


> And I have said you are free to pick and choose who ever you are with, but stop grandstanding like you are healed and healthy, because your attitude screams otherwise!
> My ex left me, she was a WAW. But you know what? I don't judge anybody else by her actions. Every person has a story. Every person has a mind of their own. You can't control how someone feels now, you sure as hell can't control how they will feel in a year or two or ten or twenty.


Yet again you are oblivious to the fact that I'm not judging anyone by my ex's actions. I'm judging them on what they tell me about THEIR marriage. You're asking that one ignore their own experiences in making judgements. I say that's ridiculous.

I'm not saying I'm healed. I'm not "grandstanding". I'm damn sure still angry about what my ex did, and is still doing to my kids.

I'm just saying your logic is totally flawed and mine is not.😊
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

MRR said:


> Anyone who says there are no WAS's or 'women just dont walk away' are....WRONG.
> 
> I am not talking about people who are mistreated or abused.
> 
> My wife flat out walked away. She mirrored most of the mid life crisis traits, and gave me the ILYBINILWY speech, and bottom line she was allured by NOT BEING MARRIED. Coincidentally she had a friend who was separated and move into her own apt and saw how 'fun' it was to have those days you could party all night and the ex would have the kids that night/next day. The grass is greener.
> 
> Yes, she did make some weak attempts to her family about why it needed to end but those were shut down pretty quickly as everyone we were around saw clearly how good I treated her and our kids.
> 
> She was a walk away wife, plain and simple.
> 
> Now- to go back to the original post and the concern about dating women and the reasons why he may not to date what appears to be another walk away wife-- totally legitimate but as I stated earlier I think many of the women we date in this range-- mid 30s to late 40s (or even more)-- and very possibly men too-- are going to be a sort of walk away spouse. Does that bother me? Yes, a bit because 5 years into the marriage when things get stale, or contentious, or you are getting attention from someone at work-- are you going to 'walk away' or are you going to stay committed?
> 
> I get the OP's question and why he would ask. I do not know the answer. I have had an on/off FWB situation since last spring with a woman that is similar to my wife, a walk away wife. If this ever evolved and had the potential to get serious, I would question her loyalty, at least a bit.
> 
> I do not know how to completely avoid meeting someone like this and frankly, dont despise them for whatever happened in the past. But I can see how this could come up with the OP.


I like how you stated this. It's funny how we go through transitions in our life and learn from our past. As a 20 year old guy if you asked me what was important in a relationship I would have likely talked about her looks or willingness to have kids or intelligence...who knows.

Now as a 40 year old guy when asked all I want is a woman who will stay in the foxhole with me when times get rough. Someone who won't run out at the sight of the first squirrel they see. The point of this thread is meeting walk aways. The only thing you can do to minimize the possibility of dating these types is to ask about the past. It's really all you have to go on.


----------



## Ynot

BetrayedDad said:


> No, she shouldn't of married him in the first place.
> 
> This doesn't happen on a whim despite the lies she tells herself.
> 
> She knew she was settling for less than what she wanted but he looked good "on paper".


So she made a mistake. But she should have stuck with him out of obligation? What should she have done? Condemned herself to a life of unhappiness and regret? Have you never made a mistake? 
I love how clearly some can see in hindsight without ever realizing that it was only in hindsight that the realization occurred that a mistake was made. So if you married a WAW did you NOT make a mistake marrying her in the first place? 
People change, life happens, get over it already!


----------



## Ynot

Evinrude58 said:


> I'm just saying your logic is totally flawed and mine is not.😊
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Except there is no logic on your argument, only emotion, namely anger that you still harbor. You assume a WAW just walked away for "no apparent reason" because you don't accept them as valid and I am trying to explain to you that to the WAW those reasons were very real or else they wouldn't have walked away to begin with. 
You have also been presented with numerous examples of women who self-identify as WAWs but you say you wouldn't consider them as such after hearing their stories. And again, all I am saying is you are may be missing out on a lot of wonderful women when you blow them off because you have prejudged them based on what you feel your wife did.
I refuse to judge anyone else by someone else's actions, especially my own WAW ex wife.


----------



## Evinrude58

Ynot said:


> Except there is no logic on your argument, only emotion, namely anger that you still harbor. You assume a WAW just walked away for "no apparent reason" because you don't accept them as valid and I am trying to explain to you that to the WAW those reasons were very real or else they wouldn't have walked away to begin with.
> You have also been presented with numerous examples of women who self-identify as WAWs but you say you wouldn't consider them as such after hearing their stories. And again, all I am saying is you are may be missing out on a lot of wonderful women when you blow them off because you have prejudged them based on what you feel your wife did.
> I refuse to judge anyone else by someone else's actions, especially my own WAW ex wife.


Ynot,
I agree with you totally about not judging a person based on what my wife did. And not on a couple of sentences. 
I'm saying that sometimes the reasons aren't apparent because the excuses aren't what Most people think are reasonable. If a woman days their ex husband was a good man, but they just fell out of love; that there wasn't any specific reason--- am I not to take them at their word? I've actually had that happen.

Your experience was that your ex had reasons x,y,z, and you're good with that. I'm just saying that some women divorce their husbands and just can't come up with a good reason. Lots wish they hadn't divorced, and want their husband back. I'm saying there are people out there that are chronically unhappy, I try to see if a prospective partner is one of those. And act accordingly. 
What's wrong with that?

I'm very sorry if for some reason I have triggered some bad feelings with you, we are just really misunderstanding one another somehow.
Good luck. I'm headed over to my gf's and enjoying her company. I'm satisfied with her story and am crazy about her. My "system" has hopefully worked out well for me. I hope your dating methods do for you, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

Ynot said:


> So she made a mistake. But she should have stuck with him out of obligation? What should she have done?


I agree she should have still left him. The guy got fvcked over marrying a disingenuous person. It happens. Sooner she leaves, the sooner he can find a loyal wife.



Ynot said:


> Condemned herself to a life of unhappiness and regret? Have you never made a mistake?


I've never devastated another person's life if that's what you mean. I'm put too much cream in my coffee or left the lights on. Those are "mistakes".



Ynot said:


> I love how clearly some can see in hindsight without ever realizing that it was only in hindsight that the realization occurred that a mistake was made. So if you married a WAW did you NOT make a mistake marrying her in the first place?


I don't think you know what the word "mistake" means. You seem to like to do a lot of victim blaming. Sounds like your ex did a real number blame shifting the crap out of you.



Ynot said:


> People change, life happens, get over it already!


HAHA, is that the lie you were told? Consider for a second MAYBE she didn't change and MAYBE just got tired of pretending to give a sh!t about you. 

You bored her so she left for a more "exciting" life. Not sure what's so complicated. Like I said, WAW's don't happen on a whim.


----------



## MRR

actually they do happen on a whim, that is precisely the issue with dating one after divorce.


----------



## SARAHMCD

MRR said:


> actually they do happen on a whim, that is precisely the issue with dating one after divorce.


It takes a certain personality type to leave their marriage and possibly their children on a "whim". I still struggle with believing there is no reason whatsoever. It may not be a reason you see as valid or large enough not to work out but they most certainly did. It is quite possible they didn't communicate the issue(s) to you until it was too late. 
However, if you are attracted to this personality type, then you need to do your own self-reflection to understand why so you don't make the same mistake again.


----------



## Evinrude58

SARAHMCD said:


> It takes a certain personality type to leave their marriage and possibly their children on a "whim". I still struggle with believing there is no reason whatsoever. It may not be a reason you see as valid or large enough not to work out but they most certainly did. It is quite possible they didn't communicate the issue(s) to you until it was too late.
> However, if you are attracted to this personality type, then you need to do your own self-reflection to understand why so you don't make the same mistake again.


Geez, isn't that what this whole thread is about?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SARAHMCD

Evinrude58 said:


> Geez, isn't that what this whole thread is about?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not exactly. I'm suggesting a little self-reflection into why you would chose a "flaky" woman who can leave a marriage on a whim in the first place. Do you have the need to rescue a woman in distress? Or are you attracted to women that treat you badly and walk all over you? I'm not saying this was YOUR case, but I'm guessing it is some of the men on here. That is the place to start. 

Then you will naturally weed out this "type" by not being attracted to them in the first place. I'm guessing just asking them why they left their husband will not be sufficient to avoid the same mistake twice if you have done no self-reflection.


----------



## Ynot

Evinrude58 said:


> Ynot,
> I agree with you totally about not judging a person based on what my wife did. And not on a couple of sentences.
> I'm saying that sometimes the reasons aren't apparent because the excuses aren't what Most people think are reasonable. If a woman days their ex husband was a good man, but they just fell out of love; that there wasn't any specific reason--- am I not to take them at their word? I've actually had that happen.
> 
> Your experience was that your ex had reasons x,y,z, and you're good with that. I'm just saying that some women divorce their husbands and just can't come up with a good reason. Lots wish they hadn't divorced, and want their husband back. I'm saying there are people out there that are chronically unhappy, I try to see if a prospective partner is one of those. And act accordingly.
> What's wrong with that?
> 
> I'm very sorry if for some reason I have triggered some bad feelings with you, we are just really misunderstanding one another somehow.
> Good luck. I'm headed over to my gf's and enjoying her company. I'm satisfied with her story and am crazy about her. My "system" has hopefully worked out well for me. I hope your dating methods do for you, too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually my ex never gave me a reason qqhy she decided it was time to pack it in. But that is on her. As for me, I would rather be with someone who wants to be with me than someone who is just there out of obligation. As far as I am concerned, I am sure my ex had her reasons, but again those are her choices and I have no control over them. While I have had to deal with the consequences, I am ok with it because I am better off knowing. As for her? Well, she will have to deal with her issues herself, if she is capable, but again it isn't my problem. All I am saying is that regardless of why they did what they did, they still did it. it does no good to sit around and say she could've would've or should've done anything. All that matters is she did me a favor. If she didn't want to be with me, too bad for her. because I am not looking back. Enjoy your time with your GF, I am going to have dinner with mine now as well.


----------



## Wolf1974

SARAHMCD said:


> Not exactly. I'm suggesting a little self-reflection into why you would chose a "flaky" woman who can leave a marriage on a whim in the first place. Do you have the need to rescue a woman in distress? Or are you attracted to women that treat you badly and walk all over you? I'm not saying this was YOUR case, but I'm guessing it is some of the men on here. That is the place to start.
> 
> Then you will naturally weed out this "type" by not being attracted to them in the first place. I'm guessing just asking them why they left their husband will not be sufficient to avoid the same mistake twice if you have done no self-reflection.


But that is what so many here are saying. For my own example I married a cheater. I knew she cheated, knew the bs story she gave about why and the whole thing. I ignored her past at my own peril and paid for it. A moving forward I am avoiding those types. How you avoid them is by looking at their past as indication of what they are capable of. Does that mean every person who cheated once will do it again? Probably not. However it's a huge risk I wouldn't take again for sure

To your other point yes they have a reason leave but that doesn't make it a valid reason. I remember taking vows and making commitments. Many of those involve two people who work through problems together not apart. So a spouse growing bored and never letting ther other spouse know until they eventually check out isn't to me valid at all. I would also not recommend starting a realtionship with those people either. To much risk.


----------



## Marduk

SARAHMCD said:


> Not exactly. I'm suggesting a little self-reflection into why you would chose a "flaky" woman who can leave a marriage on a whim in the first place. Do you have the need to rescue a woman in distress? Or are you attracted to women that treat you badly and walk all over you? I'm not saying this was YOUR case, but I'm guessing it is some of the men on here. That is the place to start.
> 
> Then you will naturally weed out this "type" by not being attracted to them in the first place. I'm guessing just asking them why they left their husband will not be sufficient to avoid the same mistake twice if you have done no self-reflection.


Actually, it's a bit misleading.

There are plenty of people who would really like to be in a committed, monogamous, long term relationship. Because there are lots of benefits to that.

They just can't do it. But they pretend, hoping this time will be different.

And then there's the "Eat, Pray, Love" scenario. If you haven't read the book, I encourage you to do so.

There's a whole minor cottage industry devoted to telling women who are married that the grass is greener elsewhere...


----------



## Ynot

BetrayedDad said:


> I agree she should have still left him. The guy got fvcked over marrying a disingenuous person. It happens. Sooner she leaves, the sooner he can find a loyal wife.
> So the guy bears no responsibility? He just got fvcked over?
> 
> 
> I've never devastated another person's life if that's what you mean. I'm put too much cream in my coffee or left the lights on. Those are "mistakes".
> 
> So you never broke a girls heart in HS or college? And you bear no responsibility for the choices that you made in your life - you just got fvcked over?
> 
> I don't think you know what the word "mistake" means. You seem to like to do a lot of victim blaming. Sounds like your ex did a real number blame shifting the crap out of you.
> Actually that would be you who doesn't understand what a mistake is. For some reason the other poster who left her husband because she made a mistake in marrying him isn't a WAW, but your ex is?
> 
> HAHA, is that the lie you were told? Consider for a second MAYBE she didn't change and MAYBE just got tired of pretending to give a sh!t about you.
> What lie would that be? That people change? Or that life doesn't happen? Keep believing the fairy tales and see how successful you are. If you haven't changed then I feel very sorry for you.
> You bored her so she left for a more "exciting" life. Not sure what's so complicated. Like I said, WAW's don't happen on a whim.


Maybe I did bore her. I don't know and I really don't care either. Also nobody ever said they don't happen on a whim. In fact that is the very thing I have been trying to convey to you. There are reasons why a WAW walks, just because you can't or won't accept them does not make them any less real to the person who walked. 
Speaking of victimhood, have you taken a look at your user name? I get it, you were betrayed, but unlike you I refuse to identify myself by what has happened to me, I have moved on with my life. I recommend that you do the same thing and step being a victim. Nobody is coming to save you!


----------



## MRR

SARAHMCD said:


> It takes a certain personality type to leave their marriage and possibly their children on a "whim". I still struggle with believing there is no reason whatsoever. It may not be a reason you see as valid or large enough not to work out but they most certainly did. It is quite possible they didn't communicate the issue(s) to you until it was too late.
> However, if you are attracted to this personality type, then you need to do your own self-reflection to understand why so you don't make the same mistake again.


I am fully aware of the ways I was not a great husband; actually I was a great husband in most ways and her friends/family told her so even before she decided she didnt want to be married, it was being fully aware that I was not great at. 

Like I said previously, she fit pretty much all criteria for a mid life crisis and her only valid reason was "im not in love with you". Of course she has indicated several times since that she regrets it, to the point where she came over one night last summer and after a discussion where we were pretty open and I let her know I had been sleeping with somone-- she was disappointed to hear that and said, I came over here to f*ck you. (didnt happen, i have moved on). 

Honestly, there is no reason most people would consider valid. The grass is greener. She was enticed by what she saw in divorced friends, having days without the kids to be free, etc. 

Point is, there are women out there --- and clearly men as well-- who are not loyal and will bail quickly. Ive gone over this in my head-- and with counselors and my own research/reading-- enough the last two plus years to realize exactly what happen on both my side and hers.


----------



## SARAHMCD

marduk said:


> Actually, it's a bit misleading.
> 
> There are plenty of people who would really like to be in a committed, monogamous, long term relationship. Because there are lots of benefits to that.
> 
> They just can't do it. But they pretend, hoping this time will be different.
> 
> And then there's the "Eat, Pray, Love" scenario. If you haven't read the book, I encourage you to do so.
> 
> There's a whole minor cottage industry devoted to telling women who are married that the grass is greener elsewhere...


Again, to me, a woman that leaves simply because she's bored and see's the "grass is greener elsewhere" is a certain type. Not that you can ever completely predict what another person will do or feel 2, 5 or 10 years down the road, but what I'm saying is you need to look at both their past AND your own reason why you chose this person in the first place. Were there signs they were commitment phobic from the start? If not, do you remember when they pulled away and what was going on then? It could be that the woman was simply immature and bought into the dream of living happily ever after. Once she realized a relationship actually takes work, she blamed it all on him and walked. I'm sure that happens. Again, wouldn't there have been signs while dating that she was this type of person? What drew you to it or made you blind to it?

There are so many on here that say there were NO signs and their SO gave them NO reasons. I am just struggling to believe that. I still think they gave a reason - or reasons - but they weren't heard or acknowledged as valid in the other person's mind. They were most certainly valid reasons for their SO, enough for them to move out. 

There has to be some self reflection, not complete blame on the other party, or we are all bound to make the same mistake again.


----------



## SARAHMCD

MRR said:


> Point is, there are women out there --- and clearly men as well-- who are not loyal and will bail quickly. Ive gone over this in my head-- and with counselors and my own research/reading-- enough the last two plus years to realize exactly what happen on both my side and hers.


Then you have done your self-reflection. You have seriously considered what in you made you chose her personality type.

Is your FWB not a similar type? Again, in this relationship you are not standing up for your own needs. You are just doing what you can to fulfill hers, putting yourself at her disposal. This seems to be a pattern and will put you back into asking the question in 3-4 months "I can't believe she left me and is dating this other guy. She told me I was different and how much she loved being with me so I stuck around for her." Yet her actions were all over the place and the signs are clearly there that you can't rely on her.


----------



## MRR

SARAHMCD said:


> Then you have done your self-reflection. You have seriously considered what in you made you chose her personality type.
> 
> Is your FWB not a similar type? Again, in this relationship you are not standing up for your own needs. You are just doing what you can to fulfill hers, putting yourself at her disposal. This seems to be a pattern and will put you back into asking the question in 3-4 months "I can't believe she left me and is dating this other guy. She told me I was different and how much she loved being with me so I stuck around for her." Yet her actions were all over the place and the signs are clearly there that you can't rely on her.


Well, just to be clear, I never felt the 'I cant believe she left/is dating someone else' thing at all. I EXPECTED her to do that; being just divorced is a bit overwhelming and I would NOT recommend going long term with the first person you hooked up with. I am totally honest with myself here, i fully expected there to be a disconnect at some point in this case-- however we were not married or even in a relationship so not the same is really bailing. She was always honest with me about liking me but not ready. I felt she was/is MORE aware of her needs at a difficult time was than I was a year earlier when I was in a serious relationship just after divorce, that failed. 

I think the freedom is intoxicating and you definitely need to live through that phase or risk not knowing what type of person is good and bad for you. 

For that reason I am not sure if she is truly flakey, not loyal, etc.

But absolutely I see your point about how/why I chose my ex and am aware of and think about these things even as I am going through them now. I think awareness is the first step, because I didnt think about my decisions, pay attention to my feelings, how i was treated, etc. before. Still working on it but getting better.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Ynot said:


> What lie would that be? That people change? Or that life doesn't happen? Keep believing the fairy tales and see how successful you are. If you haven't changed then I feel very sorry for you.


People don't change as much as you'd like to think they do. They just show their true colors. I know you're worked up because clearly you've put a lot of time and effort into deluding yourself into thinking she didn't con you in a fake relationship. I'm sorry man.




Ynot said:


> Speaking of victimhood, have you taken a look at your user name? I get it, you were betrayed, but unlike you I refuse to identify myself by what has happened to me, I have moved on with my life. I recommend that you do the same thing and step being a victim. Nobody is coming to save you!


Why do you think I need saving? I divorced my ex expeditiously. All you're doing is blaming yourself for her actions. Victimhood 101. Wake up man, you can't control people. Your WAW was all about her. She blame shifted you hard. I didn't mean to upset you but you need to accept that and move on yourself.


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## anewstart60

So how many years of marriage is acceptable to show you have tried and met your obligations (kids are adults, finances are in good shape) before you decide you have had enough unhappiness and decide to leave knowing you will never find that happiness in the marriage?
I left a 24 year marriage so I guess I'm a WAH.
I had my reasons and to me they are very valid. As long as my kids are now ok with my leaving and understand why I did then I am at peace with my decision. I don't have to explain or justify my actions to anyone and when the time comes that I have someone in my life I will be honest as to how my marriage ended, then it's up to them as to how they react. I know I am a good person regardless of what some think without knowing my story and I have no regrets.
My kids see that my ex and I are both happier in the 2 years since I left and like I stated, they are the only ones opinions that really matter to me right now.


----------



## Ynot

BetrayedDad said:


> People don't change as much as you'd like to think they do. They just show their true colors. I know you're worked up because clearly you've put a lot of time and effort into deluding yourself into thinking she didn't con you in a fake relationship. I'm sorry man.
> 
> 
> Now that is the lie you have been deluded into believing. If you can look in the mirror and say you haven't changed with a straight face, you are truly delusional. People do change, if they don't they die. You can deny it all you want and imagine that you are pretending to hold onto some core values or some such, but I guarantee you that everything you think today has changed from what you thought yesterday or ten years ago.
> 
> Why do you think I need saving? I divorced my ex expeditiously. All you're doing is blaming yourself for her actions. Victimhood 101. Wake up man, you can't control people. Your WAW was all about her. She blame shifted you hard. I didn't mean to upset you but you need to accept that and move on yourself.


I think you need saving because of how you identify yourself. You are BETRAYED Dad, you are a poor miserable victim and the sad part is that you have deluded yourself into imagining you are healed. I have done no blame shifting. I take no responsibility for her actions, however I do take responsibility for my own. I am also rational enough to realize that I had a part in what happened. You can deny your part as long as want, but you will never heal until you do so. You seem to not see when I say that my ex is responsible for her own actions and she will have to live with it. I don't understand what I am supposed to be blaming her for? That she didn't stay with me because I loved her? She didn't stay out of obligation? That she left for no apparent (to me) reason? That she chose her own happiness over mine? It doesn't matter, she made her choice. I can be like you and remain angry and try to avoid healing by shifting all the blame to her (as you have done and continue to do) or I can recognize that everybody is simply acting in their own best interests. I can't control what some one else thinks is in their own best interests. All I can do is take what as been done and control my own reaction to it. I choose to respond by removing any and all influence she had on my life and taking responsibility for my own. If you choose to assign blame and hold onto anger, that is your problem you poor betrayed man. She set you free, rather than identify yourself as betrayed, why don't you choose to be your own man and stop pretending?


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## BetrayedDad

Ynot said:


> She set you free, rather than identify yourself as betrayed, why don't you choose to be your own man and stop pretending?


Well, I picked that username two years ago so I'm kinda stuck with it now LOL. I just thought it was easier since I was posting mostly in CWI and I had come here to figure out how to divorce my serial cheating ex.

You clearly has serious issues so I like I said. Sorry for upsetting you, didn't mean to antagonize you, etc. etc. Do people change? Somewhat. To the extend they wake up and become different people and just walk out of you? Fvcking ridiculous! Believe what you want dude. Blue pill for you I guess.


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## Ynot

anewstart60 said:


> So how many years of marriage is acceptable to show you have tried and met your obligations (kids are adults, finances are in good shape) before you decide you have had enough unhappiness and decide to leave knowing you will never find that happiness in the marriage?
> I left a 24 year marriage so I guess I'm a WAH.
> I had my reasons and to me they are very valid. As long as my kids are now ok with my leaving and understand why I did then I am at peace with my decision. I don't have to explain or justify my actions to anyone and when the time comes that I have someone in my life I will be honest as to how my marriage ended, then it's up to them as to how they react. I know I am a good person regardless of what some think without knowing my story and I have no regrets.
> My kids see that my ex and I are both happier in the 2 years since I left and like I stated, they are the only ones opinions that really matter to me right now.


I guess, according to some here, that no amount of time is acceptable. After all, you took a vow, you made a promise, you are obligated (insert puking emoticon here) People don't change, mistakes are never made and you should stay just because they love you (insert two puking emoticons here)
Good for you for recognizing that your happiness comes first. Without your happiness you could never have a happy relationship. regardless of whatever the bitter enders say.


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## Marduk

SARAHMCD said:


> Again, to me, a woman that leaves simply because she's bored and see's the "grass is greener elsewhere" is a certain type. Not that you can ever completely predict what another person will do or feel 2, 5 or 10 years down the road, but what I'm saying is you need to look at both their past AND your own reason why you chose this person in the first place. Were there signs they were commitment phobic from the start? If not, do you remember when they pulled away and what was going on then? It could be that the woman was simply immature and bought into the dream of living happily ever after. Once she realized a relationship actually takes work, she blamed it all on him and walked. I'm sure that happens. Again, wouldn't there have been signs while dating that she was this type of person? What drew you to it or made you blind to it?
> 
> There are so many on here that say there were NO signs and their SO gave them NO reasons. I am just struggling to believe that. I still think they gave a reason - or reasons - but they weren't heard or acknowledged as valid in the other person's mind. They were most certainly valid reasons for their SO, enough for them to move out.
> 
> There has to be some self reflection, not complete blame on the other party, or we are all bound to make the same mistake again.


For many, and perhaps the vast majority of cases, this is true.

However it does make the exceptions more interesting.

How many stories have we read on TAM that point directly at one trying to give the illusion of wanting monogamy when they really just won't or can't be?

The courtship and mating dance is all about illusion. Now many people are enlightened like you Sarah, and discard all that.

But many don't. Many fear exposing their inner landscape to another, or even to themselves. Many need to keep up appearances. And the modern world seems especially suited and broadcasts from on high that you can always be more, do more, and have more -- and one of the ways you can do that is by throwing off the shackles of your current life and running away. Throw it on visa and forget about tomorrow. Find a life and spouse that is 'inspiring' not just hard work.

Life is short, have an affair. Forget a man, find a champion. I'm holding out for a hero. Let go. Sin city. Uncoupling. Breathe. Running up that hill.

See, everyone faces middle age. Everyone gets to finally be a grown up and asks themselves "Is this it, is there nothing more?"

And you can take one of two roads - the hard road of inner work and growth and challenge and honesty and trying to move forward but together with your boring old spouse.

Or you can choose the quick and easy path of the new, the 'it's not me, it's you', a return to the youthful life of no hesitations, no commitments, nothing held back, the freedom of not having to choose one thing over another. And that path is really tempting, because what that path says is "I'm not who I want to be not because of myself, but because I've been held back."

Which is a pretty tempting path. And it probably works, for a time.

But you can't run away from yourself forever.


----------



## Ynot

BetrayedDad said:


> Well, I picked that username two years ago so I'm kinda stuck with it now LOL. I just thought it was easier since I was posting mostly in CWI and I had come here to figure out how to divorce my serial cheating ex.
> 
> You clearly has serious issues so I like I said. Sorry for upsetting you, didn't mean to antagonize you, etc. etc. Do people change? Somewhat. To the extend they wake up and become different people and just walk out of you? Fvcking ridiculous! Believe what you want dude. Blue pill for you I guess.


Ok, I get it, you weren't fooled, your ex just fvcked you over? There were no signs? She just walked away one day, after having serial affairs and you were just an innocent bystander who got betrayed. Boohoohoo! Except you forget the part about where you ignored the signs, weren't paying attention or chose to look the other way, chose to marry her in the first part, etc etc. 
You see I am not blaming you for what she did, I am simply telling you that you are responsible for the choices YOU made. But apparently that is a lesson that is too painful for you to accept. Since you have convinced yourself that she and she alone is solely responsible. Grow up and learn something from what happened to you. Otherwise you are going to repeat the same mistakes, regardless of how careful you imagine you are being.


----------



## Ynot

marduk said:


> But you can't run away from yourself forever.


Which is exactly why people choose whichever path they feel is best for them. The problem is when they choose a path that we disagree with or that hurts us, then that choice becomes dumb or selfish or stupid or "quick and easy". But to the person making that choice, it was the right choice or they wouldn't have made it. In the end we just need to recognize that we can't control what someone else thinks, all we can do is control our response to it.


----------



## eyesopen

I don't know if the OP is following, this is a very long thread. I would just like to chime in with my 2 cents.
My ex is a WAW. She dropped the bomb on me, I had no idea. She did not want to reconcile. That is to say not that she shut it out flat, she did think about it (or so she said), and said that no, she could not. I later found out that she had been having an affair with a guy 15 years younger than her (who is now living with her...) but that is sort of besides the fact.
At the time, I did not understand why she would not fight for the marriage. We have two kids. I (thought I) loved her. But in hindsight (4 years now) she was right in saying she was not happy (and neither was I), right in fighting for her convictions (and not caving in, probably only to end up unhappy again) and making me face the facts.
My point is this. Was it nice? No. Did I resent it? Yes, very much. Do I resent it still? Sort of, but not really. It was indeed the best thing to do in that situation. Today we co-parent our kids and have an OK relationship. Not buddy buddy friends but no hostility. I think we respect each other and try to avoid hurting one another.
So I would not categorically dismiss WAWs. It really does depend on the situation and the person you are dealing with. And for that, you have to get to know them. My current girlfriend (of 1+ years) had an affair before her divorce was final and then broke it off. I don't judge her and don't blame her. I am not saying it is "OK", but we are human and it depends on the circumstances. Just as my Ex was emotionally abandoned (by me, even if it was NOT intentional).
So, it depends. There are still good people out there.


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## Marduk

Ynot said:


> Which is exactly why people choose whichever path they feel is best for them. The problem is when they choose a path that we disagree with or that hurts us, then that choice becomes dumb or selfish or stupid or "quick and easy". But to the person making that choice, it was the right choice or they wouldn't have made it. In the end we just need to recognize that we can't control what someone else thinks, all we can do is control our response to it.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Ynot said:


> Ok, I get it, you weren't fooled, your ex just fvcked you over? There were no signs? She just walked away one day, after having serial affairs and you were just an innocent bystander who got betrayed. Boohoohoo! Except you forget the part about where you ignored the signs, weren't paying attention or chose to look the other way, chose to marry her in the first part, etc etc.


You know what I learned from the whole ordeal?

I accept FULL responsibility for ignoring the signs while we were dating. She had more red flags than a communist parade. I should never have married her. I have also come to realize that it wasn't that she had checked out. It was more like she never really checked in to begin with. I went all in, she kept her options open and played along until better opportunity presented itself. 

So again, do people change? Somewhat, I'm not as much of a fool as I used to be. However, not to the extent of becoming literally different people. Eventually, the charade ends and everyone's true colors comes out. Maybe one day you'll realize that as I have.


----------



## SARAHMCD

marduk said:


>


Women often feel like they lose themselves in a relationship. In my first one, after we split, I found myself standing in Blockbuster having no idea what kind of movie to rent for myself. I had never considered my own opinion. Shocking. And sad. But so true for so many women. They get caught up in becoming a wife and mother and forget they have their own identity. They focus too much energy on the relationship and revolve everything around it, not accepting responsibility for their own personal growth. At the same time, men tend to be more firm in their identity but less so in their ability to be emotionally intimate with their wife. Thus, a disconnect. 

Below is writing I borrowed in response to that movie:

_I see a beautiful symmetry in the fact that, for many couples, men are strong in identity and weaker in intimacy while women are sometimes the opposite–strong in intimacy and weaker in identity. We seem designed to need to learn from each other and encourage each other. Do most women really have to leave their marriage to find themselves? Do men have to go through a divorce to develop intimacy? I sure hope not. There’s a great line in the movie where Liz says, “I’m sick of people telling me that I need a man.” To which Felipe replies, “You don’t need a man, Liz. You need a champion.” And that’s exactly what we need to be for each other. Wouldn’t it be amazing if husbands encouraged their wives to discover who they are–even if it’s a little scary because she might change and she might make some demands for herself? Wouldn’t it be amazing if wives understood that men have focused on creating their identity, perhaps at the expense of learning intimacy–and patiently encouraged them to grow in that way? Wouldn’t it be great if women accepted that one man, no matter who he is, may not always be capable of meeting her needs for emotional intimacy and she therefore developed a network of friendships to provide that for herself? We need to be each other’s champions._


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## Ynot

BetrayedDad said:


> You know what I learned from the whole ordeal?
> 
> I accept FULL responsibility for ignoring the signs while we were dating. She had more red flags than a communist parade. I have come to realize that it wasn't that she had checked out. It was more like she never really checked in to begin with. I went all in, she kept her options open and played along until better opportunity presented itself.
> 
> So again people do change? Somewhat, I'm not as much of a fool as I used to be. However, not to the extent of becoming literally different people. Eventually, the charade ends and everyone's true colors comes out. Maybe one day you'll realize that as I have.


Um, I have realized that. Perhaps one day you *REALLY* will as well.


----------



## Marduk

SARAHMCD said:


> Women often feel like they lose themselves in a relationship. In my first one, after we split, I found myself standing in Blockbuster having no idea what kind of movie to rent for myself. I had never considered my own opinion. Shocking. And sad. But so true for so many women. They get caught up in becoming a wife and mother and forget they have their own identity. They focus too much energy on the relationship and revolve everything around it, not accepting responsibility for their own personal growth. At the same time, men tend to be more firm in their identity but less so in their ability to be emotionally intimate with their wife. Thus, a disconnect.
> 
> Below is writing I borrowed in response to that movie:
> 
> _I see a beautiful symmetry in the fact that, for many couples, men are strong in identity and weaker in intimacy while women are sometimes the opposite–strong in intimacy and weaker in identity. We seem designed to need to learn from each other and encourage each other. Do most women really have to leave their marriage to find themselves? Do men have to go through a divorce to develop intimacy? I sure hope not. There’s a great line in the movie where Liz says, “I’m sick of people telling me that I need a man.” To which Felipe replies, “You don’t need a man, Liz. You need a champion.” And that’s exactly what we need to be for each other. Wouldn’t it be amazing if husbands encouraged their wives to discover who they are–even if it’s a little scary because she might change and she might make some demands for herself? Wouldn’t it be amazing if wives understood that men have focused on creating their identity, perhaps at the expense of learning intimacy–and patiently encouraged them to grow in that way? Wouldn’t it be great if women accepted that one man, no matter who he is, may not always be capable of meeting her needs for emotional intimacy and she therefore developed a network of friendships to provide that for herself? We need to be each other’s champions._


Blech. 

Being a man is hard enough. Or a woman. 

Being a harlequin romance cutout is impossible. 

Just be a good human being.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ynot

marduk said:


>


So Marduk,I am not arguing that the messaging isn't out ther, just that is yet another aspect of modern life we have no control over. Yep there are all sorts of messaging about life being better if you do this or do that. Heck Big Pharma lives off that message! But once again the one and only thing that each of us has any control over is our own individual responses to the messages. Not one of us can control what someone else thinks or feels or how how they will respond. And that is something that has never changed.


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## Marduk

Ynot said:


> So Marduk,I am not arguing that the messaging isn't out ther, just that is yet another aspect of modern life we have no control over. Yep there are all sorts of messaging about life being better if you do this or do that. Heck Big Pharma lives off that message! But once again the one and only thing that each of us has any control over is our own individual responses to the messages. Not one of us can control what someone else thinks or feels or how how they will respond. And that is something that has never changed.


It is true that the only thing one has control over, and only limited control at that, is our own grey matter.

However that does not mean that I choose to walk around with blinders on regarding things I cannot control -- for my influence actually reaches far and wide, and my decisions should be made with wisdom.

And it does not mean that I choose to take accountability for other's failings. I have searched the depths of my heart for what I did wrong in my first marriage for example, and gone through much therapy about it. And of all the things I did that were wrong, none of them changed the outcome in any way.

Intellectual honesty means that accountability falls where it falls.


----------



## MRR

SARAHMCD said:


> Women often feel like they lose themselves in a relationship. In my first one, after we split, I found myself standing in Blockbuster having no idea what kind of movie to rent for myself. I had never considered my own opinion. Shocking. And sad. But so true for so many women. They get caught up in becoming a wife and mother and forget they have their own identity. They focus too much energy on the relationship and revolve everything around it, not accepting responsibility for their own personal growth. At the same time, men tend to be more firm in their identity but less so in their ability to be emotionally intimate with their wife. Thus, a disconnect.
> 
> Below is writing I borrowed in response to that movie:
> 
> _I see a beautiful symmetry in the fact that, for many couples, men are strong in identity and weaker in intimacy while women are sometimes the opposite–strong in intimacy and weaker in identity. We seem designed to need to learn from each other and encourage each other. Do most women really have to leave their marriage to find themselves? Do men have to go through a divorce to develop intimacy? I sure hope not. There’s a great line in the movie where Liz says, “I’m sick of people telling me that I need a man.” To which Felipe replies, “You don’t need a man, Liz. You need a champion.” And that’s exactly what we need to be for each other. Wouldn’t it be amazing if husbands encouraged their wives to discover who they are–even if it’s a little scary because she might change and she might make some demands for herself? Wouldn’t it be amazing if wives understood that men have focused on creating their identity, perhaps at the expense of learning intimacy–and patiently encouraged them to grow in that way? Wouldn’t it be great if women accepted that one man, no matter who he is, may not always be capable of meeting her needs for emotional intimacy and she therefore developed a network of friendships to provide that for herself? We need to be each other’s champions._



yeah see, in my case *I* was the one who lost my identity; *I* was the one who lost myself in becoming parent and husband. She didnt do half of what I did in either dept spouse or parent. I put aside my passion for writing and rarely saw my friends, by MY choice, because I thought it was what a father and husband were supposed to do. 

My wife was definitely in 'the grass is greener' and thinking she could find a better deal camp. I realize my faults were in losing myself, and also in not being aware of this BEFORE we married ( I should have been-- in a world of givers and takers, she was a taker from the get go!)

I totallly appreciate your situation though Sarah. I am not discounting it at all and am glad you have made a better, happier and more fulfilling life for yourself (as I have too).


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## SARAHMCD

marduk said:


> Blech.
> 
> Being a man is hard enough. Or a woman.
> 
> Being a harlequin romance cutout is impossible.
> 
> Just be a good human being.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree the wording is a bit much and I would never say "she doesn't need a man, she needs a champion". That is blech. 

But it does illustrate how often men and women view marriage differently and gets to the heart of many WAWs and their confused SOs. The women leave because they thought their husband would be their "everything". Their identity was caught up in being married. So if it wasn't perfect....well, grass is greener. She blames her husband for holding her back or his lack of effort in the marriage. Men on the other hand, look at their marriage as part of their life, but not their whole life. Why does it need so much *effort*?


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## Marduk

SARAHMCD said:


> I agree the wording is a bit much and I would never say "she doesn't need a man, she needs a champion". That is blech.
> 
> But it does illustrate how often men and women view marriage differently and gets to the heart of many WAWs and their confused SOs. The women leave because they thought their husband would be their "everything". Their identity was caught up in being married. So if it wasn't perfect....well, grass is greener. She blames her husband for holding her back or his lack of effort in the marriage. Men on the other hand, look at their marriage as part of their life, but not their whole life. Why does it need so much *effort*?


Externalizing meaning is always fraught with anxiety, and leads to the path of continuing to seek meaning externally.

No-one will ever find perfect fulfillment or meaning in marriage.

Through marriage, perhaps, but not in it. Marriage is a tool that two people use to help themselves be happy. It makes me happy to make my wife happy, and she makes me happy. That's it.

There are no soul mates. There is no fate but what we make.

Everything good is hard. If it were easy, would you want it?


----------



## SARAHMCD

marduk said:


> Externalizing meaning is always fraught with anxiety, and leads to the path of continuing to seek meaning externally.
> 
> No-one will ever find perfect fulfillment or meaning in marriage.
> 
> Through marriage, perhaps, but not in it. Marriage is a tool that two people use to help themselves be happy. *It makes me happy to make my wife happy, and she makes me happy. That's it.*
> 
> There are no soul mates. There is no fate but what we make.
> 
> Everything good is hard. If it were easy, would you want it?


Absolutely agree. This is a very mature and confident way to view marriage. Most people take many, many years to reach this enlightenment and some never do. Each of us needs to be happy with ourselves before entering into a relationship where your goal *should* be to make the other person happy. If you are both givers, then it's simple. 

That's why there are so many people on Live After Divorce asking the question "how do I know when I'm ready to date again?". If they aren't happy themselves, if they are emotionally drained/bitter or they are looking to date to "replace" something they feel missing in their life, then they are not ready.


----------



## Marduk

SARAHMCD said:


> Absolutely agree. This is a very mature and confident way to view marriage. Most people take many, many years to reach this enlightenment and some never do. Each of us needs to be happy with ourselves before entering into a relationship where your goal *should* be to make the other person happy. If you are both givers, then it's simple.
> 
> That's why there are so many people on Live After Divorce asking the question "how do I know when I'm ready to date again?". If they aren't happy themselves, if they are emotionally drained/bitter or they are looking to date to "replace" something they feel missing in their life, then they are not ready.


Very true.

When I started dating my current wife, she was actually a bit concerned -- my life was pretty full and I only had a sliver of it to offer her. She struggled with having to 'fit into' someone's life.

I can understand that.


----------



## Shoto1984

A lot of great discussion and "most" of it has been respectful. Bravo. It seems a lot of the back and forth has been regarding defining a Walk Away Spouse. What is a "bad" marriage? What is "abuse"? How long do you have to work at it? Are kids involved or not? What changed that you once were happy and then were not? When you made a marriage commitment did you take the vows seriously or was it just a show because it was expected by family and friends? All good points to investigate and in the end we all come up with our own right answers. That said, we also get to decide who we allow into our lives and I think these life decisions, like many others, have to be weighed carefully when making that choice.


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## bkyln309

One thing that does come to mind. I have heard alot of men saying there is not a reason why she left. I was a good father and husband. No, there was a reason and the fact you have no clue is/was part of the problem. You couldnt see your part in the problem which is a HUGE problem. 

If you asked my X why I divorced him, he will tell you he didnt know why!!!!! And it was very obvious in my case


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## Marduk

bkyln309 said:


> One thing that does come to mind. I have heard alot of men saying there is not a reason why she left. I was a good father and husband. No, there was a reason and the fact you have no clue is/was part of the problem. You couldnt see your part in the problem which is a HUGE problem.
> 
> If you asked my X why I divorced him, he will tell you he didnt know why!!!!! And it was very obvious in my case


Was the irony intentional when you say the reason was obvious and yet don't actually say what that reason was?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bkyln309

marduk said:


> Was the irony intentional when you say the reason was obvious and yet not actually saying what that reason was?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I gave my story earlier in this thread.


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## Marduk

bkyln309 said:


> I gave my story earlier in this thread.


My point was that what is obvious to one is not always obvious to another.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58

There are women with darned good reasons why they left their husbands who may pretend, or truly be oblivious to the reasons. 

The fact is, that there are women that leave for reasons that are darned shallow, pretty shameful, and pretty trivial. What they really wanted was out of the responsibility of being in a marriage, wanted a strange penis, wanted freedom, or possibly wanted a man with more money, looks, or prestige. They probably felt their husband was not good enough, obviously.

If that is the case, I think the Walkaway wife is NOT a good marriage prospect. Sometimes one can figure out pretty darned fast that this is the case.

If a woman says, "My ex was a good man, but I just didn't want to be married anymore". 
"He was a good man, I just didn't love him anymore".

Should one ignore these things? Should one delve further into their reasons for divorcing their husband? I'm thinking a first and second date lets you know what you need to know, to see if you like the person and if you are actually interested in learning more about them. If one of your dealbreakers is LOYALTY, how could one have enough interest in the person to continue dating them? 

I'm thinking if you are on a first or second date and the guy asks you about your divorce, if you're really interested enough to go on the date with him, you should show it by telling him in a clear, concise way that your ex-husband did things in your marriage that were not acceptable and that is the reason for the divorce. You don't have to go into details ever, or only when you feel like it. I don't even like talking about exes on the first few dates. I simply want to know they were not disloyal for no good reason, or flakey. That's all I'm asking for on the first couple of dates. Is that wrong of me?


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## Hopeful Cynic

> I guess, according to some here, that no amount of time is acceptable. After all, you took a vow, you made a promise, you are obligated (insert puking emoticon here) People don't change, mistakes are never made and you should stay just because they love you (insert two puking emoticons here)


I was a naive teenager when I first met and dated my now-ex. I had no idea what a personality disorder was, and had full faith in the decency of human nature. Little did I know my ex's 18 charisma concealed a neutral evil alignment. All through dating and cohabitation and finally marriage, I never clued in. It was many years, children and a mortgage later that I was discarded as no longer meeting my ex's needs.

I never recognized the distance in the relationship for what it truly was. What I thought were mutual sacrifices we were both making for the sake of the children, turned out to be, to my surprise, only me not making the previously habitual sacrifices for my ex any longer, and my ex becoming secretly bitter about it.


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## Wolf1974

bkyln309 said:


> One thing that does come to mind. I have heard alot of men saying there is not a reason why she left. I was a good father and husband. No, there was a reason and the fact you have no clue is/was part of the problem. You couldnt see your part in the problem which is a HUGE problem.
> 
> If you asked my X why I divorced him, he will tell you he didnt know why!!!!! And it was very obvious in my case


I don't know of any men who are mind readers. Can only deal with the information we have. Are you saying that you told him you were unhappy and needed a change and told him what that change was. Told him that if changes didn't occur you would leave the marriage?


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## Marduk

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I was a naive teenager when I first met and dated my now-ex. I had no idea what a personality disorder was, and had full faith in the decency of human nature. Little did I know my ex's 18 charisma concealed a neutral evil alignment. All through dating and cohabitation and finally marriage, I never clued in. It was many years, children and a mortgage later that I was discarded as no longer meeting my ex's needs.
> 
> I never recognized the distance in the relationship for what it truly was. What I thought were mutual sacrifices we were both making for the sake of the children, turned out to be, to my surprise, only me not making the previously habitual sacrifices for my ex any longer, and my ex becoming secretly bitter about it.


I grant you a +1 saving throw vs future crazy people for your D&D reference.

And a wand of true alignment.


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## SARAHMCD

Wolf1974 said:


> I don't know of any men who are mind readers. Can only deal with the information we have. Are you saying that you told him you were unhappy and needed a change and told him what that change was. Told him that if changes didn't occur you would leave the marriage?



I obviously can't speak for brklyn, but in my case YES. I gave him a list. I did it in person and in writing. First, I told him this was very important to me, then extremely important to me (and us), then "if we don't talk about this very, very soon, I am considering leaving", then "ok, I can't take this anymore, you know our marriage is almost over right?" and then 2 months after that, finally "I'm moving out, I've found a condo to rent". This went on over a period of 2 years as his behavior continued. Apparently, he didn't take me seriously. Thought I was getting my period or had a bad day at work (his words). Seriously.


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## Wolf1974

SARAHMCD said:


> I obviously can't speak for brklyn, but in my case YES. I gave him a list. I did it in person and in writing. First, I told him this was very important to me, then extremely important to me (and us), then "if we don't talk about this very, very soon, I am considering leaving", then "ok, I can't take this anymore, you know our marriage is almost over right?" and then 2 months after that, finally "I'm moving out, I've found a condo to rent". This went on over a period of 2 years as his behavior continued. Apparently, he didn't take me seriously. Thought I was getting my period or had a bad day at work (his words). Seriously.


Then again I would not call this an issue of a walk away spouse. You spoke to your husband and he didn't listen. That is certainly one way some marriages desolve. But why some here can't seem to understand that not all women communicate as clearly as you did is beyond me. Most men love a project. You give them something concrete to work on and an objective and they are all over it. You gave him the opportunity to fix it , great but some do not. They bottle and then "feel" like they communicated when they didn't. That is a WAW not what you are


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## MRR

bkyln309 said:


> One thing that does come to mind. I have heard alot of men saying there is not a reason why she left. I was a good father and husband. No, there was a reason and the fact you have no clue is/was part of the problem. You couldnt see your part in the problem which is a HUGE problem.
> 
> If you asked my X why I divorced him, he will tell you he didnt know why!!!!! And it was very obvious in my case


wrong again. walk aways will come up with a reason on the spot when being questioned. if it didnt exist before they just came up with it, a spouse cannot address it. re-writing marriage history is a real thing.


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## Marduk

MRR said:


> wrong again. walk aways will come up with a reason on the spot when being questioned. if it didnt exist before they just came up with it, a spouse cannot address it. re-writing marriage history is a real thing.


You just made me laugh with a flashback to my WAW ex wife. 

We were newly separated in a "temporary" separation. 

My buddy runs into my ex and her AP in a restaurant. 

He goes up to her and says hello. And then promptly asks her why we're separated. 

She looks at the guy she's with and then says that I had cheated on her on a boys weekend and she couldn't stay with me no matter how much she tried to forgive me. 

My buddy says to her "you mean such and such weekend?" Wife says yes, that's the one. 

My buddy says "you're talking about the backcountry camping trip. That was a boys trip. For his stag. Years ago. When we hiked 10k into the backcountry just the boys."

"Well, he could have snuck off..."

"10km in the bush. He shared a tent. With me. All night."

"I think you're confused."

"We took him camping because you insisted no strippers or anything. I would have known! By the way, who's this guy, I thought you just needed some space to think, not start dating other people."

At that point she turned around and walked away and refused to talk to him for months. 

She told many such different stories, with similar results. Claiming things that people knew didn't happen. That's when her story started to fall apart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bkyln309

In my case, we were in counselling and he had secret debt and exhorting money from us, so its not like my Ex had to read my mind. But he says I was a good husband and father. I beg to differ! There was a reason when I finally decided to get out, I was done. 

But I have heard it from many men. Then I press them further and I as a woman can see exactly where the problem was in their former marriage. You gently tell them I think this was a bigger problem than you anticipated. They look like a deer in the headlights.


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## jorgegene

marduk said:


> You just made me laugh with a flashback to my WAW ex wife.
> 
> We were newly separated in a "temporary" separation.
> 
> My buddy runs into my ex and her AP in a restaurant.
> 
> He goes up to her and says hello. And then promptly asks her why we're separated.
> 
> She looks at the guy she's with and then says that I had cheated on her on a boys weekend and she couldn't stay with me no matter how much she tried to forgive me.
> 
> My buddy says to her "you mean such and such weekend?" Wife says yes, that's the one.
> 
> My buddy says "you're talking about the backcountry camping trip. That was a boys trip. For his stag. Years ago. When we hiked 10k into the backcountry just the boys."
> 
> "Well, he could have snuck off..."
> 
> "10km in the bush. He shared a tent. With me. All night."
> 
> "I think you're confused."
> 
> "We took him camping because you insisted no strippers or anything. I would have known! By the way, who's this guy, I thought you just needed some space to think, not start dating other people."
> 
> At that point she turned around and walked away and refused to talk to him for months.
> 
> She told many such different stories, with similar results. Claiming things that people knew didn't happen. That's when her story started to fall apart.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


that buddy of yours had some cojones! glad he called her out!


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## Wolf1974

bkyln309 said:


> In my case, we were in counselling and he had secret debt and exhorting money from us, so its not like my Ex had to read my mind. But he says I was a good husband and father. I beg to differ! There was a reason when I finally decided to get out, I was done.
> 
> But I have heard it from many men. Then I press them further and I as a woman can see exactly where the problem was in their former marriage. You gently tell them I think this was a bigger problem than you anticipated.* They look like a deer in the headlights*.


And that's exactly what many are arguing. If you say you communicated it and they have no idea when it happens then guess what it was t communicated at all. Communciation is more than just talking it's the process of understanding as well.

That's not to say that people don't lie or rewrite martial history because they do. But I am genuinely talking about a problem identified by one, communicated to the other and understood by the other. Seems to me the last step is the one missed most often.


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## Acoa

bkyln309 said:


> In my case, we were in counselling and he had secret debt and exhorting money from us, so its not like my Ex had to read my mind. But he says I was a good husband and father. I beg to differ! There was a reason when I finally decided to get out, I was done.
> 
> But I have heard it from many men. Then I press them further and I as a woman can see exactly where the problem was in their former marriage. You gently tell them I think this was a bigger problem than you anticipated. They look like a deer in the headlights.



Divorced is a red flag, but if you like them, you date for a while. Then trust your gut, if they are not healed from whatever happened, you'll sense it. Unless they are a talented sociopath, then you're screwed. Lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ynot

Wolf1974 said:


> And that's exactly what many are arguing. If you say you communicated it and they have no idea when it happens then guess what it was t communicated at all. Communciation is more than just talking it's the process of understanding as well.


And then the question becomes - just how much effort does one need to make or help the other understand before they throw up their hands in frustration and walk away AND just how much effort should one make to understand what they are being told instead of just assuming something is so?
I was devastated when my ex walked, but looking back there were all sorts of signs along the way, that I missed. Live and learn. If nothing else she taught me a valuable life lesson. 
But in the end I and I alone am responsible for my happiness. When you are told your ex is no longer interested in your happiness, either thru actions or words, it is up to each of us to decide our own course of action. Whether we "got it" or not at the time they took place is irrelevant. Once we do "get it" it is time to move on with life and stop playing the blame game of ifs, should've, would've or could've.


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## Wolf1974

Ynot said:


> And then the question becomes - just how much effort does one need to make or help the other understand before they throw up their hands in frustration and walk away AND just how much effort should one make to understand what they are being told instead of just assuming something is so?
> I was devastated when my ex walked, but looking back there were all sorts of signs along the way, that I missed. Live and learn. If nothing else she taught me a valuable life lesson.
> But in the end I and I alone am responsible for my happiness. When you are told your ex is no longer interested in your happiness, either thru actions or words, it is up to each of us to decide our own course of action. Whether we "got it" or not at the time they took place is irrelevant. Once we do "get it" it is time to move on with life and stop playing the blame game of ifs, should've, would've or could've.


I agree and that bar is going to be set for each of us individually on what we will tolerate and how long.

I don't agree that what many are doing is playing the blame game. What I think many do is live and learn and if you learned nothing from your past relationship then you're a fool. Sometimes the best thing we learn is We don't work well with This type of communicator or personality type so I'm not going to be with them in the future. To me that level of self reflection is rare and takes time to develop. My choice to not associate with or date previous cheaters doesn't have anything to do with my X wife. It has to do why my standards and what I believe in and what I am willing to allow into my life and my children's life.


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## Ynot

Wolf1974 said:


> I agree and that bar is going to be set for each of us individually on what we will tolerate and how long.
> 
> I don't agree that what many are doing is playing the blame game. What I think many do is live and learn and if you learned nothing from your past relationship then you're a fool. Sometimes the best thing we learn is We don't work well with This type of communicator or personality type so I'm not going to be with them in the future. To me that level of self reflection is rare and takes time to develop. My choice to not associate with or date previous cheaters doesn't have anything to do with my X wife. It has to do why my standards and what I believe in and what I am willing to allow into my life and my children's life.


No argument here, we each decide what is best for ourselves. But I have seen a few posters here who seem to think some kind of blame has to be assigned. I just think playing the blame game is a waste of time. Take the gift you have been given, whether that be freedom or simply the knowledge that they weren't right for you and move forward with your life. It is the only one you have (and if you don't believe that, then know that it is just a blip in time and move on)


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## MRR

Wolf1974 said:


> I agree and that bar is going to be set for each of us individually on what we will tolerate and how long.
> 
> I don't agree that what many are doing is playing the blame game. What I think many do is live and learn and if you learned nothing from your past relationship then you're a fool. Sometimes the best thing we learn is We don't work well with This type of communicator or personality type so I'm not going to be with them in the future. To me that level of self reflection is rare and takes time to develop. My choice to not associate with or date previous cheaters doesn't have anything to do with my X wife. It has to do why my standards and what I believe in and what I am willing to allow into my life and my children's life.


Some may be playing the blame game. I totally understand my shortcomings and am MUCH better now, both happier and a better, more self-aware and more empathetic person and I am glad it happened the way it did. 

But, I am not going to take the blame for her bailing with zero effort an no real reason. There were no legit reasons; she saw friends who were divorced and she decided she didnt want to be married. She is what you would call a walk away wife. And I agree not ALL situations where a woman leaves her husband is a WAW scenario.


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## Ynot

MRR said:


> Some may be playing the blame game. I totally understand my shortcomings and am MUCH better now, both happier and a better, more self-aware and more empathetic person and I am glad it happened the way it did.
> 
> But, I am not going to take the blame for her bailing with zero effort an no real reason. There were no legit reasons; she saw friends who were divorced and she decided she didnt want to be married. She is what you would call a walk away wife. And I agree not ALL situations where a woman leaves her husband is a WAW scenario.


Just to be clear, because some here don't understand, but NOT playing the blame game does not entail taking the blame yourself. Life happens and all we can do is be responsible for our own responses to it.


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