# “If she really loves you, you’ll never find out”



## Jakobs (6 mo ago)

How much truth do you reckon there is to this myth? Just got done watching a video from a professional PI in which he clearly states that wives are WAY better at spotting their husband’s indiscretions than the other way around.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Absolutely, wifes are better both at hiding their affairs, and spotting their husband's. Dudes, are a lot more clueless.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Absolutely true


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Agreed.

And if 54% of divorces reference cheating, this might help explain why women file such a large percentage of the divorces. Husbands are far more likely to get caught.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

I agree that women are way more adapt at both at hiding their deceptions to their mate and they are definitely quicker in picking up on our shenanigans. I know there are some guys who can even outdo women but they are usually the top 20% of the guys women chase after. Men in general get a bad name as being dogs due to the exploits of this layer of men.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Far, far so many go undetected due to clueless, hapless husbands….you know, the current state of feminized husbands in the west.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Women generally are more intuitive. I can sense immediately if Mr D has something on his mind. We would both be terrible liars though as honesty in marriage is vital for us.


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## Jakobs (6 mo ago)

RebuildingMe said:


> *Far, far so many go undetected* due to clueless, hapless husbands….you know, the current state of feminized husbands in the west.


^^ THIS.

This is just a hunch on my part but… My suspicion is that there’s more going on that people realize. Corey Wayne, in one of his videos, kind of insinuated this much.

My suspicion is that the majority of cheating are ONS that go nowhere, undetected, and are very short lived. Then there’s the social circles/workplace stuff… the real marriage-ending “situationships.”


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Jakobs said:


> ^^ THIS.
> 
> This is just a hunch on my part but… My suspicion is that there’s more going on that people realize. Corey Wayne, in one of his videos, kind of insinuated this much.
> 
> My suspicion is that the majority of cheating are ONS that go nowhere, undetected, and are very short lived. Then there’s the social circles/workplace stuff… the real marriage-ending “situationships.”


I believe most would cheat if given the opportunity and right timing. And most would get away with it.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

There are evolutionary reasons behind it, IMO.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Numb26 said:


> I believe most would cheat if given the opportunity and right timing. And most would get away with it.


This is why it’s important for everybody to avoid getting into tempting situations.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Rob_1 said:


> Absolutely, wifes are better both at hiding their affairs, and spotting their husband's. Dudes, are a lot more clueless.


Well, as I see it, they are more trusting, and easier at finding themselves in denial.

*Men are careless with the facts, more than being clueless.*

Their ego works against them, when those red flags, flap and tickle against their better sense.

Women have been taught to be coy and crafty from an early age, so they know the signs.

Ever watch a small chipmunk?

No one can sneak up on them!
That is pure emotion acting out in their defense.

Heightened emotions (a feminine trait) makes them acutely aware of their surroundings.

That said, many of the threads on TAM show, many a lady, being caught unawares of their SO's infidelities.

?




_Are Dee-_


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> I believe most would cheat if given the opportunity and right timing. And most would get away with it.


I think many people underestimate this fact. I don't believe for one second when someone tell me they are incapable of cheating. I have less than 0 intention or interest in cheating, but I still won't say it would never happen. I am not capable of imagining an analyzing every possible scenario that could come my way, so never say never.


I think like a lot of "crimes" you can easily get away with a random on off event. It is when you do something over and over that you get complacent and slip up.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

I'd speculate that in general women also take action when they find out better than men. Less rugsweeping and more definitive action. It certainly appears that way reading here but could also be there are more Male trolls pretending to be simps to get a rise out of everyone.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

As far as the thread title: If she really loved you there would be nothing to find out.
It's more like if she has at least a shred of respect left for you, you "won't find out", but there is no love in adulterous deception.

As mentioned if it's repetitive eventually someone usually gets lazy and makes a mistake.
(texts, emails, running into the wrong person, etc.)


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Numb26 said:


> I believe most would cheat if given the opportunity and right timing. And most would get away with it.


I can't agree.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

I think the ability to lie and deceive is individualistic, unrelated to gender. That said, a lot of us were fed propaganda growing up that blinded us to the reality that women can be every bit as deceptive and malicious as men. I think there is gender parity there.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Megaforce said:


> I think the ability to lie and deceive is individualistic, unrelated to gender. That said, a lot of us were fed propaganda growing up that blinded us to the reality that women can be every bit as deceptive and malicious as men. I think there is gender parity there.


My experience has taught me that women are much better liars then men.


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## DamianDamian (Aug 14, 2019)

Simps are easy to fool. If you're not a simp then you have nothing to worry about. Simps are single handedly skewing that statistic. 
No way my wife is better at knowing what's up than I am.


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## Jakobs (6 mo ago)

Megaforce said:


> I think the ability to lie and deceive is individualistic, unrelated to gender. That said, a lot of us were fed propaganda growing up that blinded us to the reality that women can be every bit as deceptive and malicious as men. I think there is gender parity there.


Not to get off topic but lying and deceiving are two different things, at least as they pertain to adultery: lying is a means to deceive, which in itself is a means to cheat. There is a hierarchy there that you are presenting as a simile.

The thread title actually comes from a female-centric site, and, from what I could see in the commentary, there was a noticeable split between the genders: most females (female profiles) agreed with the meme, and the two or three males that dared opine said it was hogwash.


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## Jakobs (6 mo ago)

DamianDamian said:


> Simps are easy to fool. If you're not a simp then you have nothing to worry about. Simps are single handedly skewing that statistic.
> No way my wife is better at knowing what's up than I am.


Let me guess: you only eat what you hunt and fish and can uncork a bottle of wine with your testicular muscles?


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Jakobs said:


> ^^ THIS.
> 
> This is just a hunch on my part but… My suspicion is that there’s more going on that people realize. Corey Wayne, in one of his videos, kind of insinuated this much.
> 
> My suspicion is that the majority of cheating are ONS that go nowhere, undetected, and are very short lived. Then there’s the social circles/workplace stuff… the real marriage-ending “situationships.”


As someone who is into DNA genealogy, I can say in my family tree, I am surprised that the paper trail and the DNA trail line up. I have done both Y-DNA and Mtdna tests in addition to the autosomal. If cheating was widespread before readily available and effective birth control (say the early to mid 1900's) there would be more "surprises" as to DNA in the genealogical record. Of course if you are nearly worked to death in a subsistence situation, there probably isn't a lot of strength or time for extra-marital affairs.

So at least historically, I don't think that there was a lot of cheating going on that was not known by both partners.

The rise in the knowledge of incurable STD's is a strong moderating force to available and effective birth control.

Still cheating happens all the time, but some cultures have widely different definitions of what cheating includes. Just look at the things Bill Clinton said were "not sex."


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Despite the fact that modern thought instructs us that men and women are the same in every respect, I believe that women have a better ability to read emotions. When I was young it was referred to as "women's intuition." It's not a myth.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Jakobs said:


> How much truth do you reckon there is to this myth? Just got done watching a video from a professional PI in which he clearly states that wives are WAY better at spotting their husband’s indiscretions than the other way around.


It is BS. If she really loved you, there would be nothing there to find out in the first place!

That line is same as someone poisoning a spouse and while they are getting more and more ill, they are professing their undying love to them.


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

I'll toss my hat in the ring now. The problem I've noted in my 62 years on the big blue marble come to this. Men and women approach relationships differently. 
A man will, when he falls in love, normally give himself fully over to his mate. This causes a type of blindness. Not seeing what's really going on because we will fully trust without conditio our mate. Partly because we more tactile with our world. That's why so many men waffle with uncertainty when they find their mate has cheated. It's such an overwhelming feeling of pain from the betrayal. 
Women tend to be much more reserved in letting themselves go fully in a relationship, even once they know of they love their mate. They do tend to hold back a bit and are very careful of their past and only reveal what's needed.
Maybe it seems odd to think this way, but how to explain why women move on so quickly as a whole when a relationship ends.
Just an observation.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

Back some years ago, one of my male co-workers was married for 11 years, they had 2 children together. Then his wife had a falling out with one of her female friends and for spite her friend contacted my co-worker and tipped him off that his wife had been having an affair with a guy she met at a supermarket for the last 4 years.
Believe this or not her husband did not suspect a thing and if not for the tip off he`d probably had never known or maybe the affair would have continued for several more years.
How is this possible some may wonder?
This is because women are masters at the game of deception, deceit, bluff and lies.
It can also work the other way, a wife can truly love her husband but not make it obvious because women are not as open with their feelings as men..


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Just wow. I don’t get some of you guys. The hatred and distrust has now spread to an entire gender for many of you. That’s pretty sad. As for me, I seriously wonder why I even keep coming back to TAM most of the time. It offends me to read this crap, like I don’t hurt as much or it’s not as bad for me that I got cheated on because of my gender.

Women are not as open with their feelings as men? You have got to be kidding me. That’s ridiculous! Women will have a ONS as long as we can get away with it? SERIOUSLY??? Oh and don’t forget women are expert deceivers and liars!!! Men are just so honest by nature then but not us women. 

I just can’t anymore. I really thought that TAM was a place for shared experiences, support, and community. This stuff ^ says it all. And it’s not just one or two threads it’s all over every thread now. Gender wars for no reason but having to turn the hate outward instead of using the pain to help one another.


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## UAArchangel (2 mo ago)

QuietRiot said:


> Just wow. I don’t get some of you guys. The hatred and distrust has now spread to an entire gender for many of you. That’s pretty sad. As for me, I seriously wonder why I even keep coming back to TAM most of the time. It offends me to read this crap, like I don’t hurt as much or it’s not as bad for me that I got cheated on because of my gender.
> 
> Women are not as open with their feelings as men? You have got to be kidding me. That’s ridiculous! Women will have a ONS as long as we can get away with it? SERIOUSLY??? Oh and don’t forget women are expert deceivers and liars!!! Men are just so honest by nature then but not us women.
> 
> I just can’t anymore. I really thought that TAM was a place for shared experiences, support, and community. This stuff ^ says it all. And it’s not just one or two threads it’s all over every thread now. Gender wars for no reason but having to turn the hate outward instead of using the pain to help one another.


You are seeing a self-selected bunch and it can colour the view. The guys that are still hurting to remember there are about the same number of women that are hurting too.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

QuietRiot said:


> Just wow. I don’t get some of you guys. The hatred and distrust has now spread to an entire gender for many of you. That’s pretty sad. As for me, I seriously wonder why I even keep coming back to TAM most of the time. It offends me to read this crap, like I don’t hurt as much or it’s not as bad for me that I got cheated on because of my gender.
> 
> Women are not as open with their feelings as men? You have got to be kidding me. That’s ridiculous! Women will have a ONS as long as we can get away with it? SERIOUSLY??? Oh and don’t forget women are expert deceivers and liars!!! Men are just so honest by nature then but not us women.
> 
> I just can’t anymore. I really thought that TAM was a place for shared experiences, support, and community. This stuff ^ says it all. And it’s not just one or two threads it’s all over every thread now. Gender wars for no reason but having to turn the hate outward instead of using the pain to help one another.





UAArchangel said:


> You are seeing a self-selected bunch and it can colour the view. The guys that are still hurting to remember there are about the same number of women that are hurting too.


Where are all these gender wars? I keep reading about it but never see it


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## Jakobs (6 mo ago)

QuietRiot said:


> Just wow. I don’t get some of you guys. The hatred and distrust has now spread to an entire gender for many of you. That’s pretty sad. As for me, I seriously wonder why I even keep coming back to TAM most of the time. It offends me to read this crap, like I don’t hurt as much or it’s not as bad for me that I got cheated on because of my gender.
> 
> Women are not as open with their feelings as men? You have got to be kidding me. That’s ridiculous! Women will have a ONS as long as we can get away with it? SERIOUSLY??? Oh and don’t forget women are expert deceivers and liars!!! Men are just so honest by nature then but not us women.
> 
> I just can’t anymore. I really thought that TAM was a place for shared experiences, support, and community. This stuff ^ says it all. And it’s not just one or two threads it’s all over every thread now. Gender wars for no reason but having to turn the hate outward instead of using the pain to help one another.


Hello QuietRiot.

I apologize if I offended you... my comment was based on a women-centric Facebook group about adultery in which one of the main memes is the same as the title of this thread. No ill intent.

We men DO NEED your opinion on this. Please speak freely. I really value the information from your side.


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## UAArchangel (2 mo ago)

RandomDude said:


> Where are all these gender wars? I keep reading about it but never see it


Some here have a tendency to say "women", which imply they think all women do this. In my opinion, all women do not do this, but the ones that might will do this. 

Most women do not want to screw over the man, but the ones that do will do things like this.


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## Jakobs (6 mo ago)

UAArchangel said:


> Some here have a tendency to say "women", which imply they think all women do this. In my opinion, all women do not do this, but the ones that might will do this.
> 
> Most women do not want to screw over the man, but the ones that do will do things like this.


The main issue with the adjectives is that we can hide the story behind "spouse" or "SO" all we want but eventually we will have to say "he" or "she."

And also, let me preface the rest of the comment by saying that this is just my perception, I think women *tend to* be completely unaware of how intensely betrayed most men feel when they get cheated on. I think some of that anger is well reflected in the commentary, but it does come from a deeply painful place. From what I've seen, females *tend to*, initially, feel the same feeling but they move on WAY faster than we do: We just sit there and let is fester for days/months/years to the point it literally becomes rancid to the soul, while females *tend to* find another relationship and move on way quicker than we do. Even with lingering feelings for the man.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

UAArchangel said:


> Some here have a tendency to say "women", which imply they think all women do this. In my opinion, all women do not do this, but the ones that might will do this.
> 
> Most women do not want to screw over the man, but the ones that do will do things like this.


So pretty much nothing but drama over generalising language again? 🙄

I'm disappointed 😑


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## UAArchangel (2 mo ago)

RandomDude said:


> So pretty much nothing but drama over generalising language again? 🙄
> 
> I'm disappointed 😑


I have four sisters, so my ability to be precise is quite well developed.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

UAArchangel said:


> I have four sisters, so my ability to be precise is quite well developed.


I just learnt from all the dramas that occur when one uses 'women' instead of 'most' or 'some' or 'many'. 'Many' better than 'most', less triggery 😅


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

Hey folks, big dummy here. Just wanna say this. None of us are perfect, each are unique in life. Each have our own perspective and feeling on our world. Sometimes there is a concensus about things, sometimes complete disagreement. Some may give concise and pointed advice while some answer as simple country folk.
Old saying goes like this; opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one and they stink! Ssssoooo.....let's get this party started.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

I think women are just more perceptive in general. I believe it’s an inbuilt evolutionary skill meant for defense because we are the weaker sex, so we need to be able to sense danger more readily. Hence, women's intuition.


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## Griswold (2 mo ago)

Quite Riot. Please don't go. I'm with you in the sense that I value TAM for the view points. Yours included. It's very easy for some of us (i.e. me) to make generalized statements about "men" and "women." But I don't intend to offend and I really don't see one gender as "better." That's silly. I do think there is a ton of reputable literature out there that supports broad level (on average) differences between genders - particularly involving sexual psychology. But because a trait might distribute more on average to men, does not mean there that there are not millions of women with that trait. And vice versa. I've spent my entire professional life working with women and for women. My life is enriched by them, I respect them and I love them as friends. But I can also say...with love...we are not the same. It's always been clear to me that I'm often going "read" certain situations differently than my female colleagues. Does not make me right. In fact, the value of having opposite sex colleagues is exactly this ability to tap into a that different viewpoint. Very useful in work environments! Same here. Whether we agree or not on an issue, I really want you view point. I'm a bit more blind without you.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

CraigBesuden said:


> There are evolutionary reasons behind it, IMO.


If this is controversial, sorry to those who were offended.

Most women aren’t liars or cheaters. Most first marriages last a lifetime. Most women are good people. I don’t recommend that men not get married. I don’t recommend that men look overseas for women.

And so forth.

“Not all women.” And not most women, for that matter.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

This thread proves all men are insensitive knuckleheads lol!


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

CraigBesuden said:


> Most first marriages last a lifetime.


Is this even true? I thought 1/2 of first marriages in US end in divorce. A majority before 10 years.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> Is this even true? I thought 1/2 of first marriages in US end in divorce. A majority before 10 years.


I don't believe that is true either.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> I don't believe that is true either.


So what are the actual stats?

2010 Data from CDC showed 50% of first marriages survived as much as 20 years. Which implies that the other half end before 20 years.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

RandomDude said:


> So pretty much nothing but drama over generalising language again? 🙄


Most generalization speaks about probabilities and I've come to realize that a lot of widespread disagreements revolve around who people interpret uncertainty and probabilities and convert them into judgements.

A couple of articles worth reading on stereotype and stereotype accuracy:









Stereotype Accuracy: A Displeasing Truth


Stereotypes are often harmful, but often accurate.




www.psychologytoday.com







https://www.gwern.net/docs/psychology/cognitive-bias/2016-jussim.pdf



The gist is that stereotypes are about probabilities to improve our guesses about the unknown, but they aren't true in all cases. When you learn more information about a person, individuating information, you should make judgements based more on that information about the individual instead of relying on stereotypes. That means that stereotypes can be useful for making assumptions in the absence of complete information but can be inaccurate for individuals and should be discarded when they conflict with a specific individual or situation.

When most normal people talk about stereotypes in general terms, they realize they are talking about probabilities that might not be true in all cases. A big part of what makes a bigot a bigot, in my opinion, is that they treat stereotypes as absolute truths and insist on applying them to all individuals in a group even when the individuating information indicates that the stereotype is not true for that individual.

And to go down that rabbit hole fully, what this also means is that people who assume generalized statements are being made in an overly generalized or bigoted way are, themselves, applying a stereotype assumption on the grounds that stereotypes do get misused by bigots that way. And on the other side, there are bigots who hide their bigotry behind the reluctance of others to judge them by wrapping their statements with the obligatory "many", "most", "not all", etc. statements even though they don't really mean it.

And please note that I'm not directing these statements at anyone here in particular. I consider "bigot" a fairly serious accusation and tend to assume people aren't bigots unless I have pretty solid evidence that they are. I assume that the strong statements many people make here are to encourage people to consider possibilities that they weren't considering when they were caught off guard by infidelity and to open their eyes, not to encourage hatred and bigotry.

Note that the one stereotype that almost everyone believes and acts on without calling it out or questioning it is that men are more dangerous than women.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> Most generalization speak in terms of probabilities and I've come to realize that a lot of widespread disagreements revolve around who people interpret uncertainty and probabilities and convert them into judgements.
> 
> A couple of articles worth reading on stereotype and stereotype accuracy:
> 
> ...


Stereotypes are based on a lot of truths, my people are thought of as backward barbarians who do nothing but drink and start fights all day... sadly, that's what alot of our youth does, drink and start fights all day 🙄

So what to do 🤷‍♂️


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Jakobs said:


> How much truth do you reckon there is to this myth? Just got done watching a video from a professional PI in which he clearly states that wives are WAY better at spotting their husband’s indiscretions than the other way around.


No truth at all. Thats why it is only a myth. An actual professional PI has better ways to make a buck than opining about abilities of a particular gender.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> Is this even true? I thought 1/2 of first marriages in US end in divorce. A majority before 10 years.


42-45% percent of first marriages end in divorce.






How long do first marriages last?


The average length of a first marriage that ends in divorce is roughly eight years—7.8 years for men, 7.9 for women. Moving into second marriages that end




emojicut.com





A first marriage with a college-educated woman has a divorce rate of only 22%.









Divorce Rate in America: 48 Divorce Statistics [Updated 2023]


We compiled official data from the CDC, the Census, Pew Research and others to answer the true divorce rate, demographic data, and common divorce reasons.




divorce.com





If she has a college degree, comes from an intact family and loves her father, I bet the divorce risk is quite low.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Jakobs said:


> How much truth do you reckon there is to this myth? Just got done watching a video from a professional PI in which he clearly states that wives are WAY better at spotting their husband’s indiscretions than the other way around.


I think part of it is it is just so much easier for a woman to get something on the side. 

A women could look out the window, see a guy walking by on the street and ask him to step inside for a moment. 

She can conduct a dalliance completely on her terms, her time table, her preferred location and have all the conditions in her favor. 

A guy on the other hand is going to have to work a lot harder, put himself out there more and take more risks and chances. 
There are some differences between OW and OM as well. 

An OM isn't going to ask much more of a WW than to do that little thing he likes in bed. He will otherwise keep his head down and stick to the shadows and consider himself fortunate that he gets to get the goodies without having to date or do anything public or do anything that might put the WW at risk of getting busted and screwing up the good thing he has going. 

OW aren't quite so compliant and cooperative however. She's going to want more on her terms and her convenience to where the WH is going to have to stick his neck out a little more. 

OW have been known to even intentionally drop clues and signs for the BW to find in hopes of disrupting their relationship. 
If an OW comes into the WH's home she may leave an earring or stick of lipstick or something under the bed. If she has a completely different hair color and length than the BW, she may even pull out some hair and leave on the BW's pillow. 

A man is not going to see those things and if he does, he won't connect the earring or the lipstick to the OW and will think it was the BW's but the BW will exactly where it came from. 

Much of our biology and evolution is predicated on clandestine female copulation. We are the product of thousands of generations of the secret matings of females. The system is more geared towards it and built around it.


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## CallingDrLove (9 mo ago)

I’m always amused by the guys who watched a couple of Andrew Tate videos and read a Rollo Tomassi blogs and are now declaring they are alphas and other men are all simps.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Not said:


> This thread proves all men are insensitive knuckleheads lol!


The title would infer the polar opposite. 😁


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

QuietRiot said:


> Just wow. I don’t get some of you guys. The hatred and distrust has now spread to an entire gender for many of you. That’s pretty sad. As for me, I seriously wonder why I even keep coming back to TAM most of the time. It offends me to read this crap, like I don’t hurt as much or it’s not as bad for me that I got cheated on because of my gender.
> 
> Women are not as open with their feelings as men? You have got to be kidding me. That’s ridiculous! Women will have a ONS as long as we can get away with it? SERIOUSLY??? Oh and don’t forget women are expert deceivers and liars!!! Men are just so honest by nature then but not us women.
> 
> I just can’t anymore. I really thought that TAM was a place for shared experiences, support, and community. This stuff ^ says it all. And it’s not just one or two threads it’s all over every thread now. Gender wars for no reason but having to turn the hate outward instead of using the pain to help one another.


I'm with you on this. It gets very tiresome.

You know, per the posts on this thread... all 3 of my husbands who lied and cheated were just wonderful men. Must have been my fault because, per this thread, I apparently just held back emotionally.

I get tired of hatred and distrust too.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> Where are all these gender wars? I keep reading about it but never see it


This thread is part of the gender war.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

UAArchangel said:


> You are seeing a self-selected bunch and it can colour the view. The guys that are still hurting to remember there are about the same number of women that are hurting too.


Yep. Most of the women who post on TAM have also gone through very bad marital situations and are hurting as well.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> This thread is part of the gender war.


Are you sure it's hate or just curiosity about the differences between men and women? I dunno I always assume the latter probably why I never notice any of this.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jakobs said:


> The main issue with the adjectives is that we can hide the story behind "spouse" or "SO" all we want but eventually we will have to say "he" or "she."
> 
> And also, let me preface the rest of the comment by saying that this is just my perception, I think women *tend to* be completely unaware of how intensely betrayed most men feel when they get cheated on. I think some of that anger is well reflected in the commentary, but it does come from a deeply painful place. From what I've seen, females *tend to*, initially, feel the same feeling but they move on WAY faster than we do: We just sit there and let is fester for days/months/years to the point it literally becomes rancid to the soul, while females *tend to* find another relationship and move on way quicker than we do. Even with lingering feelings for the man.


This is true only of a small segment of men. Most people, men and women, form a new relationship fairly quickly after a breakup/divorce. Most are remarried or living together with 3-4 years from a divorce/breakup. Don't forget that when a woman moves on after divorce, she's forming a relationship with a man. So, it seems that both are moving of at about the same rate.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

CraigBesuden said:


> 42-45% percent of first marriages end in divorce.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep. Most divorces are between younger people who are financial difficulties. It's good reason for people to wait until have education/training, are financially stable, are mentally mature, etc. before marrying.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> Are you sure it's hate or just curiosity about the differences between men and women? I dunno I always assume the latter probably why I never notice any of this.


Well, there are the threads discussing that American (and even European) women don't make good wives so men should go to Asia to get a wife. In other threads the discussion that men should not get married because women-bad.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Well, there are the threads discussing that American (and even European) women don't make good wives so men should go to Asia to get a wife. In other threads the discussion that men should not get married because women-bad.


Well I have been contributing to the marriage = bad stuff in my own way lol but it's not like it's women = bad. Just experiences with the women in our lives that get us jaded, same with those who found their wives abroad and if they found their happily ever after so be it. Not like I'm in a happily ever after lol


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> Well I have been contributing to the marriage = bad stuff in my own way lol but it's not like it's women = bad. Just experiences with the women in our lives that get us jaded,


Yea, it's like the women who have had bad experiences with the men we married. It's not like only women make bad spouses. The issue that that some men and some men turn out to be bad spouses who lie, cheat, etc. But not all of either sex is bad.

I think the issue is that some of us just have defective pickers. I don't blame all, or most, men for the bad behavior of the men I married. That's on them. I know lot of good men, many of them long time married. Why would I bad mouth most or all men?



RandomDude said:


> same with those who found their wives abroad and if they found their happily ever after so be it. Not like I'm in a happily ever after lol


I'm sure that there are some good marriages that come from men getting wives from abroad. There are also a lot that don't go well. I've read about a lot of these situations. This happened to a friend of mine. He was lucky to get out of the marriage before it caused him too much permanent grief.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

I think it's important to remember that ALL people, men and women, have the ability to be d*cks.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> Yep. Most divorces are between younger people who are financial difficulties. It's good reason for people to wait until have education/training, are financially stable, are mentally mature, etc. before marrying.


When I surf the web, the stats found say infidelity is one of top three reasons for divorce. Finances in the top three also. Infidelity seems number one for people married awhile, I suppose because finances are usually not an issue for most after 20 years married. AARP publication wrote that infidelity was number one issue for empty nesters. 

I can certify that finances is what nearly sunk our marriage at the five year mark. And yes, we were very young, were not financially stable, mentally mature, or educated. Still if could do it again, would have married 2 years sooner than we did.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> Well, there are the threads discussing that American (and even European) women don't make good wives so men should go to Asia to get a wife. In other threads the discussion that men should not get married because women-bad.


I didn't go anywhere. My Asian wife-to-be came to me. We both believe God put the two of us together from being born half a world apart. I am only operating on sample of one. But her personality was totally different than the native-born I dated in HS. Her priorities were different. She didn't (and doesn't) have an entitled bone in her body. I believe FOO and culture have a lot to do with whether a couple stays together for a lifetime.


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## Jakobs (6 mo ago)

EleGirl said:


> This is true only of a small segment of men. Most people, men and women, form a new relationship fairly quickly after a breakup/divorce. Most are remarried or living together with 3-4 years from a divorce/breakup. Don't forget that when a woman moves on after divorce, she's forming a relationship with a man. So, it seems that both are moving of at about the same rate.


Not at all. Look, there's a balanced, neutral and hyper-equality tone to your commentary... you do understand we are not the same right? Meaning we don't cheat the same, we don't drive the same, we don't drink the same, et cetera. And all of this percolates to infidelity. All the men I know that got divorced had zero good to say about their ex wives and felt an extreme sense of betrayal. Some told me so directly and some I heard it from their significant others.

What I think we males miss is your genuine unadulterated opinion on things that involve adultery. Meaning, for example, when you read yet another post from yet another dude who suspect something is going on, jump in there and give him as many pointers as you can. Believe me, those guys rather have you ladies translate the behavior rather than other dudes. Drop the condescendence and give it to us straight. Believe me, we can take it.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Yea, it's like the women who have had bad experiences with the men we married. It's not like only women make bad spouses. The issue that that some men and some men turn out to be bad spouses who lie, cheat, etc. But not all of either sex is bad.
> 
> I think the issue is that some of us just have defective pickers. I don't blame all, or most, men for the bad behavior of the men I married. That's on them. I know lot of good men, many of them long time married. Why would I bad mouth most or all men?
> 
> ...


Aye, I'm just saying I don't think it's really a gender war, reckon it's just people forgetting to add terms to avoid generalisations etc, but that's just me

If there is a gender war I'm joining! 🤭


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## Jakobs (6 mo ago)

RandomDude said:


> Aye, I'm just saying I don't think it's really a gender war, reckon it's just people forgetting to add terms to avoid generalisations etc, but that's just me
> 
> If there is a gender war I'm joining! 🤭


What I really miss is seeing more females jumping on threads started by dudes going through issues with their SO and translating her (the dude's SO) body language/linguistic innuendo/behavior for the dude.

This perceived war between men vs. women and being overly defensive when observations are made about a gender, I think, help neither men nor women.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> When I surf the web, the stats found say infidelity is one of top three reasons for divorce. Finances in the top three also. Infidelity seems number one for people married awhile, I suppose because finances are usually not an issue for most after 20 years married. AARP publication wrote that infidelity was number one issue for empty nesters.
> 
> I can certify that finances is what nearly sunk our marriage at the five year mark. And yes, we were very young, were not financially stable, mentally mature, or educated. Still if could do it again, would have married 2 years sooner than we did.


I’ve looked into a lot of those studies and posts. The problem is that a divorce occurs for multiple reasons. Although 54% might cite adultery/cheating, we don’t know if those are baseless accusations, a party started dating after the separation/divorce was already in process, both started dating others once the “marriage was already over,” or somebody creating an excuse to explain the divorce to their friends and families.

Young marriages often fail. Whether forced into it because of religion, a pregnancy or simply marrying for love, finances will be an issue.

For empty nesters, finances are less likely to be an issue and no longer having the children as a reason to stay together is an issue. I think a lot of people already want out and discovering adultery is a wonderful excuse to file for divorce. Even if it happened 20 years ago, you can say I was only staying for the children. It’s a “get out of jail free” card.

With my FIL, when he cheated on his wife 15 years ago, you could tell from the stories that he was hoping his wife would divorce him. He wanted out but he didn’t want to be the one to file. My two SILs, as always, ganged up with MIL and he’d lose two daughters and their grandkids if he left her. If only he could get her to leave him…. When they reconciled, she agreed to make a number of changes. She promised she would. She didn’t follow through on any…. When we had intense family drama over the last 1.5 years, the two SILs and MIL ganged up against him, forcing him into an impossible position. They all claimed to believe the man who abused my daughter, and one SIL acting as a witness that the event never happened. (Me, my wife and daughter all saying otherwise.) Only a month ago did we invite him over to my house and reconcile. I wish my FIL had used the situation to force MIL into a spot: either publicly admit that you do not believe and do not align with the two SILs and you believe my daughter or else I will divorce you. Then, when she doesn’t do it, divorce her “for that reason.” Nobody could judge him for that.

What I’m saying is life is complicated. There often isn’t “one reason” for a divorce. I wish it were simpler so that it could be analyzed objectively. But there will always be ambiguity.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

I’ve never been cheated on so I don’t get triggered and have no idea what that feels like but when I’m reading a thread like this one there’s an automatic assumption on my part that these terrible behaviors aren’t literally being pinned on one gender. Like this thread, an idea is being explored…that’s all.


It goes without saying that both genders have the capability to be crappy people. We all know this. It’s why most of us are here.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

I recently posted about a bad behavior that men are far more likely to engage in than women. Namely, leaving a partner who is very sick or has a terminal illness. Most men don’t do it, but a far more disproportionate percentage of men do this.

It is interesting to compare and contrast the reactions when the genders are reversed. (But as it was posted by a man, that probably affects the results.)

I also posted questions about how you would describe a person who says certain things. In one, it was a woman saying it and in the other it was a man saying it. My assumption was that she would be called a strong, independent woman and that he would be denounced as a **** boy. Not exactly how it turned out, though some mentioned the similarity and probably tried to be consistent…


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Well, there are the threads discussing that American (and even European) women don't make good wives so men should go to Asia to get a wife. In other threads the discussion that men should not get married because women-bad.


Most from guys who have been burned by the modern day feminist agenda. My wife says she would like to find the women who started this and whip their butts. Modern feminist has screwed over men and women both. Be good if the folks that want marriage and sex is important in marriage are able to see the others that just want to screw around and that marriage is only a paper document.

Makes me scared for my 17 yr old. We have waived him away from a few girls of questionable moral character. He says he will find one when he is in seminary. He still understands he needs to separate the girls just looking for preacher hubby from the girls who are actually about the mission of Christ.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Rus47 said:


> When I surf the web, the stats found say infidelity is one of top three reasons for divorce. Finances in the top three also. Infidelity seems number one for people married awhile, I suppose because finances are usually not an issue for most after 20 years married. AARP publication wrote that infidelity was number one issue for empty nesters.
> 
> I can certify that finances is what nearly sunk our marriage at the five year mark. And yes, we were very young, were not financially stable, mentally mature, or educated. Still if could do it again, would have married 2 years sooner than we did.


Gotta say, your story is always an inspiration to me.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Rus47 said:


> When I surf the web, the stats found say infidelity is one of top three reasons for divorce. Finances in the top three also. Infidelity seems number one for people married awhile, I suppose because finances are usually not an issue for most after 20 years married. AARP publication wrote that infidelity was number one issue for empty nesters.
> 
> I can certify that finances is what nearly sunk our marriage at the five year mark. And yes, we were very young, were not financially stable, mentally mature, or educated. Still if could do it again, would have married 2 years sooner than we did.


I think a spouse that hides money, etc and is not faithful to the marriage with the finances, not a big leap for them to be unfaithful sexually either. Most cheaters are also spending money on APs, so they are unfaithful both ways, goes hand in hand.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Divinely Favored said:


> I think a spouse that hides money, etc and is not faithful to the marriage with the finances, not a big leap for them to be unfaithful sexually either. Most cheaters are also spending money on APs, so they are unfaithful both ways, goes hand in hand.


FWIW, our financial problems were not from "hiding" money. We didn't have any to "hide" because we had spent it on stuff we couldn't afford. We lacked discipline to live within our means, and with young kids needed everything. Credit cards nearly bankrupted us, we were together in driving our finances off of the cliff. Thankfully we both got saved on the last night of a revival. We had no place to look but up. And the focus of our lives flipped away from pursuing "things". THAT is what saved our marriage and our lives.

And you know what? HE healed our finances, showed us the way.

Apologies for the t/j. I will stop.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

The title/subject of this thread is an offensive trigger to men so it would seem fairly obvious that the negativity would be directed at the women who (*“If SHE really loves you, you’ll never find out”)* keep their affair from their husband. If the thread was about men who hire Hookers it would be the opposite.
Complete generalizations of an entire gender (or any group for that matter) are asinine though, and it happens from the same folks here, both male and female, over and over. A post earlier pointed out that using 'some, many, most, a few', etc. as disclaimers easily solves this problem.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Rus47 said:


> FWIW, our financial problems were not from "hiding" money. We didn't have any to "hide" because we had spent it on stuff we couldn't afford. We lacked discipline to live within our means, and with young kids needed everything. Credit cards nearly bankrupted us, we were together in driving our finances off of the cliff. Thankfully we both got saved on the last night of a revival. We had no place to look but up. And the focus of our lives flipped away from pursuing "things". THAT is what saved our marriage and our lives.
> 
> And you know what? HE healed our finances, showed us the way.
> 
> Apologies for the t/j. I will stop.


Cousin just divorced his wife. She had taken out a $25K credit card in his name and maxed it out. He WAS ready to retire...not now.


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## Jakobs (6 mo ago)

Rubix Cubed said:


> The title/subject of this thread is an offensive trigger to men so it would seem fairly obvious that the negativity would be directed at the women who (*“If SHE really loves you, you’ll never find out”)* keep their affair from their husband. If the thread was about men who hire Hookers it would be the opposite.
> Complete generalizations of an entire gender (or any group for that matter) are asinine though, and it happens from the same folks here, both male and female, over and over. A post earlier pointed out that using 'some, many, most, a few', etc. as disclaimers easily solves this problem.


Dear lord...

For the third time: I got this meme from a woman-centric Facebook page. Not a man's, a woman's.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Jakobs said:


> Dear lord...
> 
> For the third time: I got this meme from a woman-centric Facebook page. Not a man's, a woman's.


And its true


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Jakobs said:


> Dear lord...
> 
> For the third time: I got this meme from a woman-centric Facebook page. Not a man's, a woman's.


Not judging your post or the meme just pointing out why some of the men HERE could be sensitive to it and the gender lines of the actual subject, in response to the "gender wars"/misogyny threadjack.
What site did it come from, by the way?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Jakobs said:


> Dear lord...
> 
> For the third time: I got this meme from a woman-centric Facebook page. Not a man's, a woman's.


What meme?


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Rubix Cubed said:


> The title/subject of this thread is an offensive trigger to men


I think any negative statement about women, such as the title of the thread, is an offensive trigger to women.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

CraigBesuden said:


> I think any negative statement about women, such as the title of the thread, is an offensive trigger to women.


Well then everybody can be offended and there will be no gender war. Equally offensive to all. Hurray!


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

I think it’s more about the approach than what is being said. We should try to sound sound more like Courtney Ryan than Andrew Tate.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CraigBesuden said:


> I think it’s more about the approach than what is being said. We should try to sound sound more like Courtney Ryan than Andrew Tate.


Considering Andrew Tate is in a Romanian jail on human trafficking charges, yeah we probably shouldn't be like him.


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## Jakobs (6 mo ago)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Not judging your post or the meme just pointing out why some of the men HERE could be sensitive to it and the gender lines of the actual subject, in response to the "gender wars"/misogyny threadjack.
> What site did it come from, by the way?


It came from Shallon Lester's Facebook. From one of the episodes in which she gives tutorials to other women on how to cheat and get away with it.


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

Well based on so many comments on this thread, I'll throw out this Lil saying.
Women have half the money in the world because they have all the vajajay!
Sounds like a dumb thing to say, but think on it a bit.
Not bashing on women, please don't go there. Just there are so many sayings and jokes that deal with this subject. Really all a woman has to do is show up, anywhere and she'll have an entourage of horns little devils lining up! With men...naw, good luck!


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

TinyTbone said:


> Well based on so many comments on this thread, I'll throw out this Lil saying.
> Women have half the money in the world because they have all the vajajay!
> Sounds like a dumb thing to say, but think on it a bit.
> Not bashing on women, please don't go there. Just there are somany sayings and jokes that deal with this subject. Really all a woman has to do is show, anywhere and she'll have an entourage of horns little devils lining up! With men...naw, good luck!


May be harsh but it is also true.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Jakobs said:


> It came from Shallon Lester's Facebook. From one of the episodes in which she gives tutorials to other women on how to cheat and get away with it.


Thanks
I had to look her up . What a twit. A 41 year old stuck in high school with advice to match.


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## Jakobs (6 mo ago)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Thanks
> I had to look her up . What a twit. A 41 year old stuck in high school with advice to match.


Yeah, well... she's got 345,000 subscribers.


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

Jakobs said:


> Yeah, well... she's got 345,000 subscribers.


I'm the absence of real leadership, people eat the sand of a mirage thinking it's water.


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## Jakobs (6 mo ago)

TinyTbone said:


> I'm the absence of real leadership, people eat the sand of a mirage thinking it's water.


Sad part was reading complete and utter agreement in the commentary.

Almost like it's a game.

So freaking sad.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Jakobs said:


> Sad part was reading complete and utter agreement in the commentary.
> 
> Almost like it's a game.
> 
> So freaking sad.


To them it is a game but when the consequences of losing (getting discovered) that game come to bear they will be whining, crying, and blubbering begging for a second chance so they can likely just cheat again at a later date.

354,000 followers (I guess a lot of people need Prom advice) just shows that there are plenty of shallow people with a severe character deficit. Pretty much every time I have seen "x amount of followers" to justify someone's character they usually don't have much of it. The higher the number the worse it gets. It's subscribing to being shallow.


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## Jakobs (6 mo ago)

Rubix Cubed said:


> To them it is a game but when the consequences of losing (getting discovered) that game come to bear they will be whining, crying, and blubbering begging for a second chance so they can likely just cheat again at a later date.
> 
> 354,000 followers (I guess a lot of people need Prom advice) just shows that there are plenty of shallow people with a severe character deficit. Pretty much every time I have seen "x amount of followers" to justify someone's character they usually don't have much of it. The higher the number the worse it gets. It's subscribing to being shallow.


To me, the least credible part of that video is when she says she was a virgin until she turned 21.

I started laughing uncontrollably. At work.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

Numb26 said:


> I believe most would cheat if given the opportunity and right timing. And most would get away with it.


I beg to differ here. 

While away at my work event (when my STBXCH took the opportunity to have a ONS with a complete stranger), I was hit-on several times by a few different men and had every opportunity to do exactly that. There were several thousand people there and sleeping accommodations were provided, yet the thought NEVER crossed my mind. 

“Why?” you ask. Because I loved my horrible STBXCH, and I was loyal and faithful to him. Not sure why that sounds so impossible.

My reply to compliments on my appearance was my old standby: “My husband says the same thing”, which stopped all perceived momentum in its tracks. I also told EVERY SINGLE PERSON with whom I interacted that week (who cared enough to stick around and listen) that my 27 year wedding anniversary was later that week. 

I don’t believe for a second that I am an exception.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

CraigBesuden said:


> For empty nesters, finances are less likely to be an issue and no longer having the children as a reason to stay together is an issue. I think a lot of people already want out and discovering adultery is a wonderful excuse to file for divorce. Even if it happened 20 years ago, you can say I was only staying for the children. It’s a “get out of jail free” card.


This was/is me. Again. I actually said something very similar. I had been staying in an emotionally abusive marriage—though I wasn’t happy, I was content-ish. I said, “This is my golden ticket!” This was the anger motivating catalyst I needed to leave the man who had made my life generally unhappy for 27 years.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

CraigBesuden said:


> I’ve looked into a lot of those studies and posts. The problem is that a divorce occurs for multiple reasons. Although 54% might cite adultery/cheating, we don’t know if those are baseless accusations, a party started dating after the separation/divorce was already in process, both started dating others once the “marriage was already over,” or somebody creating an excuse to explain the divorce to their friends and families.
> 
> Young marriages often fail. Whether forced into it because of religion, a pregnancy or simply marrying for love, finances will be an issue.
> 
> ...


I sm sorry about your daughter. 😭


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Woundidwife said:


> I beg to differ here.
> 
> While away at my work event (when my STBXCH took the opportunity to have a ONS with a complete stranger), I was hit-on several times by a few different men and had every opportunity to do exactly that. There were several thousand people there and sleeping accommodations were provided, yet the thought NEVER crossed my mind.
> 
> ...


I think same way when people say, all men would cheat if they had no chance of repercussions. That is BS. When a female starts complimenting me, or even talking to me for that matter, I bring up my wife in some way or another with a big smile on my face. Just my way of saying, I'm flattered but do not try to go there, this man is very taken already.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

Divinely Favored said:


> I think same way when people say, all men would cheat if they had no chance of repercussions. That is BS. When a female starts complimenting me, or even talking to me for that matter, I bring up my wife in some way or another with a big smile on my face. Just my way of saying, I'm flattered but do not try to go there, this man is very taken already.


Exactly. Good, loyal men do this too as there is no monopoly (or gender ownership) on being a safe and loving spouse/partner. ❤


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

TinyTbone said:


> Well based on so many comments on this thread, I'll throw out this Lil saying.
> Women have half the money in the world because they have all the vajajay!
> Sounds like a dumb thing to say, but think on it a bit.
> Not bashing on women, please don't go there. Just there are so many sayings and jokes that deal with this subject. *Really all a woman has to do is show up, anywhere and she'll have an entourage of horns little devils lining up!* With men...naw, good luck!


Well in my opinion, that is more a commentary on MEN, not women.


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## Sparky282 (11 mo ago)

To go back to the original question.

I don’t think we are worse at detecting women’s cheating.

1) I think it’s too factors. We don’t pay attention as closely.

example: I knew a woman who was cheating on her husband. She told us that all he did was play video games when he got home so he would never notice. He would go straight to their basement and play video games every night for hours. That gives them all the time in the world and we are not paying attention to them. Substitute video games for another hobby that may be done too much and you would never notice.

2) we allow women to almost en mass gaslight us. We are told we are insecure or controlling around guy friends. Disclaimer: I have women friends. I talk to them sporadically. Some I get together with in group settings. We are not talking on phones all the time and meeting each other alone. Their husbands would think something is up. Also they are not that attractive so I would not want them if they were single so I am trusted. Plus we have known each other for years. Before their husbands.

we have been conditioned to accept obvious inappropriate relationships between our spouses and other men.

Biz Markie nailed it with the song “you say he’s just a friend”. the number one scientifically researched book is called “not just friends”.

the foreword on that book has a quote from Shirley glass son that says “you know when you hear the word just in front of friends you are in trouble.

there is a book I read called “anatomy of an affair”. That author calls opposite sex friends “a dangerous social experiment we have been running”

Women’s feeling can change on a dime. That’s the reality. One wrong fight, are they ovulating, did they drink, a lot of factors can permanently destroy a relationship in an instant.

This is such a complicated subject.

we all know men are hitting up women for sex.

we all know it.

now if your dating then it sucks but she is free to do what she wants. But a male friend is dating. So if she keeps dating then all you can do is keep dating.

but in a marriage. The opposite sex friends need to go bye bye and men can’t be scared or shamed into accepting some ********.

Always amazed the more you learn about this relationship and infidelity world how much all the common sense you just knew your whole lives was absolutely correct.

also even though I’m looking at this from the perspective of a man. For a lot of these things you can just switch the genders.

no dude is hitting your woman up for friendship and you are not hitting up a girls to just chat and be friends or trying to spend time alone with a woman for friend ship.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Sparky282 said:


> We are not talking on phones all the time and meeting each other alone. Their husbands would think something is up. *Also they are not that attractive so I would not want them if they were single so I am trusted.* Plus we have known each other for years. Before their husbands.


 This reads almost verbatim as a cheater's excuse list before they are caught.

Bolded: So if they were attractive you'd cheat with them?

Underlined: That doesn't supersede a husband's boundaries. If he wanted you gone you should be gone.


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## uwe.blab (May 2, 2019)

RandomDude said:


> Where are all these gender wars? I keep reading about it but never see it


It may not exactly be gender wars, but read some of the posts in this thread. 


Jakobs said:


> The main issue with the adjectives is that we can hide the story behind "spouse" or "SO" all we want but eventually we will have to say "he" or "she."
> 
> And also, let me preface the rest of the comment by saying that this is just my perception, I think women *tend to* be completely unaware of how intensely betrayed most men feel when they get cheated on. I think some of that anger is well reflected in the commentary, but it does come from a deeply painful place. From what I've seen, females *tend to*, initially, feel the same feeling but they move on WAY faster than we do: We just sit there and let is fester for days/months/years to the point it literally becomes rancid to the soul, while females *tend to* find another relationship and move on way quicker than we do. Even with lingering feelings for the man.


eh. I don't have any reason to agree with these beliefs. Do you have anything beyond your perception to back them up?


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Someone awhile back wrote that women rarely give 100% of themselves sexually especially to long term partners, they often hold back. Perhaps it's like the pareto rule where get 80% of a womans self esteem and self worth comes from things other than sex itself while 20% comes from sex. 

So it would behoove a women to be good at concealing their affairs as she is risking her 80% to get her 20%.

For men it is perhaps reversed, all that wealth and Bill Gates can't go back in time and get oral sex in high school all those missed high quality orgasms. I guess he would give up 80% of his billions to go back in time and call it a square deal.


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## Jakobs (6 mo ago)

TAMAT said:


> Someone awhile back wrote that women rarely give 100% of themselves sexually especially to long term partners, they often hold back. Perhaps it's like the pareto rule where get 80% of a womans self esteem and self worth comes from things other than sex itself while 20% comes from sex.
> 
> So it would behoove a women to be good at concealing their affairs as she is risking her 80% to get her 20%.
> 
> For men it is perhaps reversed, all that wealth and Bill Gates can't go back in time and get oral sex in high school all those missed high quality orgasms. I guess he would give up 80% of his billions to go back in time and call it a square deal.


This is very true. 

Ever since I became sexually active, I've only had one female partner to thoroughly enjoy every single act we took part in. She'd come home from work, without me even asking, drop down on her knees and proceed to perform fellatio on me. She'd be up for anything... like I remember a time she was horny and we were at the park... she pulled down her pants and there I went. It was really a very healthy sexual life. Romantically speaking though, we were completely incompatible. 

Eventually we broke up because I found out she kept a network of orbiters, some of whom *I bet* she was doing on the side.


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

LisaDiane said:


> Well in my opinion, that is more a commentary on MEN, not women.


It's called control. Ask many a married men how many times the wife crossed her legs won't uncroos till they get what they want.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

TinyTbone said:


> It's called control. Ask many a married men how many times the wife crossed her legs won't uncroos till they get what they want.


Hah!
I NEVER did that, but it didn’t matter. He cheated anyway.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> Well in my opinion, that is more a commentary on MEN, not women.


While what you say is true, it doesn't make what he said any less true. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TinyTbone said:


> It's called control. Ask many a married men how many times the wife crossed her legs won't uncroos till they get what they want.


I'm glad you said many, not any married men. My wife has never, ever done this.


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

Yes ill paraphrase that as MANY a man's SO has crossed their legs till they what they wanted.


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

Woundidwife said:


> Hah!
> I NEVER did that, but it didn’t matter. He cheated anyway.


I do not acuse anyone here. It's broad statement in general.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

TinyTbone said:


> It's called control. Ask many a married men how many times the wife crossed her legs won't uncroos till they get what they want.


Well, what kind of men would tolerate that and allow themselves to be controlled in that way, unless they were getting something out of it?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

farsidejunky said:


> While what you say is true, it doesn't make what he said any less true.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


I definitely agree with you. I just wanted to point out that one doesn't exist without the other.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

TinyTbone said:


> I do not acuse anyone here. It's broad statement in general.


Understood. I was just lamenting my own miserable situation. 😔


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## Avgman (Jan 18, 2019)

Not sure if I commented on this post or not, brain is half cooked these days with so much going on ...

But definitely, I think men know what they are doing is wrong..woman have somehow justified it in their minds before carrying the act out. My wife has completely convinced herself that she was doing nothing wrong, that I didn't care about her and I deserved it. Tried telling me all our friends said I deserved it too. If it wasn't for her boyfriend, my friend, I would have never known. I thought we were doing great, I was picking her up for lunch everyday I was off, cooking dinner, staying home when I was off etc..

Little did I know I was dropping her back off at work after lunch so he could come make out with her on the parking lot literally mins after I left. He definitely gave it away, that night I caught them he was going nuts trying to leave our house to follow her to the gym it was pathetic...and to see her fall for such BS makes it even worse.


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## Jakobs (6 mo ago)

Avgman said:


> Not sure if I commented on this post or not, brain is half cooked these days with so much going on ...
> 
> But definitely, I think men know what they are doing is wrong..woman have somehow justified it in their minds before carrying the act out. My wife has completely convinced herself that she was doing nothing wrong, that I didn't care about her and I deserved it. Tried telling me all our friends said I deserved it too. If it wasn't for her boyfriend, my friend, I would have never known. I thought we were doing great, I was picking her up for lunch everyday I was off, cooking dinner, staying home when I was off etc..
> 
> Little did I know I was dropping her back off at work after lunch so he could come make out with her on the parking lot literally mins after I left. He definitely gave it away, that night I caught them he was going nuts trying to leave our house to follow her to the gym it was pathetic...and to see her fall for such BS makes it even worse.


@Avgman There is literally ZERO that you could've done to have prevented her from straying. It's the sad reality. As Donovan Sharpe likes to say: "You cannot keep cheaters from cheating, you can only make it hard for them to cheat by minimizing the situations in which the behavior is triggered."

I see many people, men and women, going above and beyond for their SO, doing extra things for them that they wouldn't ordinarily do, all in the hopes that the spouse doesn't stray. The problem is that while they're doing this, the spouse is making plans and thinking about the make out session he/she's going to engage in the day after at the mall parking lot.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

Avgman said:


> Not sure if I commented on this post or not, brain is half cooked these days with so much going on ...
> 
> But definitely, I think men know what they are doing is wrong..woman have somehow justified it in their minds before carrying the act out. My wife has completely convinced herself that she was doing nothing wrong, that I didn't care about her and I deserved it. Tried telling me all our friends said I deserved it too. If it wasn't for her boyfriend, my friend, I would have never known. I thought we were doing great, I was picking her up for lunch everyday I was off, cooking dinner, staying home when I was off etc..
> 
> Little did I know I was dropping her back off at work after lunch so he could come make out with her on the parking lot literally mins after I left. He definitely gave it away, that night I caught them he was going nuts trying to leave our house to follow her to the gym it was pathetic...and to see her fall for such BS makes it even worse.


I think there is a grain of truth to this. A VERY WISE male friend of mine once told me that “when a woman is done with you, SHE IS DONE WITH YOU.” There is nothing you can do to change her mind. (This is true in my case. My STBX cheated in me and I immediately knew I was done with him. No going recovering from that. Just done.)

Now, whether the woman does the right thing and leaves first rather than cheat on her man is a different question, but once the decision has been made, there is no coming back from it.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Woundidwife said:


> I think there is a grain of truth to this. A VERY WISE male friend of mine once told me that “when a woman is done with you, SHE IS DONE WITH YOU. There is nothing you can do to change her mind. (This is true in my case. My STBX cheated in me and I immediately knew I was done with him. No going recovering from that. Just done.)
> 
> Now, whether the woman does the right thing and leaves first rather than cheat on her man is a different question, but once the decision has been made, there is no coming back from it.


A lot of men simply do not understand this basic truth. When a woman loses interest in a man it never comes back, move on.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

Numb26 said:


> A lot of men simply do not understand this basic truth. When a woman loses interest in a man it never comes back, move on.


My STBXCH sure doesn’t get it. Keeps telling me how much more attractive I have become with my newly acquired …um…assertiveness… He is still trying to R. (Apparently “angry b!tch” is “becoming” on me! 🙄)

I have been 100% transparent with him since I made my decision to D. 

WE ARE DONE. He STILL thinks we may get back together years down the road. 

“What we had was special”. I am “the only one he has ever loved”, “the only one who has ever loved” him, and he will “never be able to love anyone ever again the way that he loves me”. (Guess he should have remembered those things at his crucial moment.)

Not happening.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Woundidwife said:


> My STBXCH sure doesn’t get it. Keeps telling me how much more attractive I have become with my newly acquired assertiveness…still trying to R. (🙄 Apparently “angry b!tch” is “becoming” on me!)
> 
> I have been 100% transparent with him since I made my decision to D. We are done. He STILL thinks we may get back together years down the road.
> 
> ...


It's sad watching these guys chase something they will never get.


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## UAArchangel (2 mo ago)

Avgman said:


> Not sure if I commented on this post or not, brain is half cooked these days with so much going on ...
> 
> But definitely, I think men know what they are doing is wrong..woman have somehow justified it in their minds before carrying the act out. My wife has completely convinced herself that she was doing nothing wrong, that I didn't care about her and I deserved it. Tried telling me all our friends said I deserved it too. If it wasn't for her boyfriend, my friend, I would have never known. I thought we were doing great, I was picking her up for lunch everyday I was off, cooking dinner, staying home when I was off etc..
> 
> Little did I know I was dropping her back off at work after lunch so he could come make out with her on the parking lot literally mins after I left. He definitely gave it away, that night I caught them he was going nuts trying to leave our house to follow her to the gym it was pathetic...and to see her fall for such BS makes it even worse.


If somebody wants to cheat, they are going to cheat. All you can do is to not waver about the consequences. Like it or not, when a person cheats, the marriage is over. 
That doesn't not mean that there cannot be an eventual reconciliation, but the cheating person has to go belly up and meet all demands to the wronged partner.


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## UAArchangel (2 mo ago)

Numb26 said:


> It's sad watching these guys chase something they will never get.


Odds are they were raised in an evironment of three chances before you die, so they don't take chances seriously until they have really, really messed up.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

TinyTbone said:


> Yes ill paraphrase that as MANY a man's SO has crossed their legs till they what they wanted.


My STBXCH was VERY emotionally abusive. If he was angry with me, he wouldn’t speak to me for weeks on end—which extended to physical touch (not even a hug) or even acknowledgment that I existed or had spoken to him. Silent treatment. (Sounds like unconditional love, doesn’t it?) At both ends of this “punishment”, there would also be a 3 or 4 hour rant/ screaming/ arguing/ belittling session, which inevitably began around 10 or 11pm on MY work nights. On many occasions, they became minimally physically abusive. Sleep was a luxury I had not been entitled to nor earned. There was no escaping or avoiding these sessions as they were mandatory for eventually making up. I had to acquiesce to his gaslighting or at the very least admit that he was probably right, so there there could be peace in my home and life. Oh and of course, these always concluded with makeup sex. If HE was happy, we were all happy. (He does have FOO stuff that was not disclosed to me until after we were married. I loved unconditionally, however and of course had no idea how that might ruin my life one day.)

27 years of this, with me begging him to go to anger management from around 2 years in. Crazy that I was so loyal that I stayed through all of that. The only thing that could make me angry enough to leave (and apparently I DID HAVE TO BE ANGRY to leave) was the reason that brought me here in the first place! 

What a relief that I don’t have to walk on eggshells anymore.

But hey, MAYBE we’ll get back together one day—now that he is so guilty that he’s suddenly not an angry person anymore and is now regretful super husband. 🙄


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Woundidwife said:


> My STBXCH was VERY emotionally abusive. If he was angry with me, he wouldn’t speak to me for weeks on end—which extended to physical touch (not even a hug) or even acknowledgment that I existed or had spoken to him. Silent treatment. (Sounds like unconditional love, doesn’t it?) At both ends of this “punishment”, there would also be a 3 or 4 hour rant/ screaming/ arguing/ belittling session, which inevitably began around 10 or 11pm on MY work nights. On many occasions, they became minimally physically abusive. Sleep was a luxury I had not been entitled to nor earned. There was no escaping or avoiding these sessions as they were mandatory for eventually making up. I had to acquiesce to his gaslighting or at the very least admit that he was probably right, so there there could be peace in my home and life. Oh and of course, these always concluded with makeup sex. If HE was happy, we were all happy. (He does have FOO stuff that was not disclosed to me until after we were married. I loved unconditionally, however and of course had no idea how that might ruin my life one day.)
> 
> 27 years of this, with me begging him to go to anger management from around 2 years in. Crazy that I was so loyal that I stayed through all of that. The only thing that could make me angry enough to leave (and apparently I DID HAVE TO BE ANGRY to leave) was the reason that brought me here in the first place!
> 
> ...


He's lost his favorite, most satisfying target.


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## Jakobs (6 mo ago)

Woundidwife said:


> My STBXCH was VERY emotionally abusive. If he was angry with me, he wouldn’t speak to me for weeks on end—which extended to physical touch (not even a hug) or even acknowledgment that I existed or had spoken to him. Silent treatment. (Sounds like unconditional love, doesn’t it?)


Woundidwife, keeping silent *ISN'T* abuse. I did it all the time with my XW precisely because I didn't want to let the moment get the best of me and have me say anything I regreted later. Distance does it for men. It has *NOTHING* to do with you or your feelings. Some men take minutes to get over the anger and others require more. Your ex was a narcissist, plain and simple. 



> At both ends of this “punishment”, there would also be a 3 or 4 hour rant/ screaming/ arguing/ belittling session, which inevitably began around 10 or 11pm on MY work nights. On many occasions, they became minimally physically abusive. Sleep was a luxury I had not been entitled to nor earned. There was no escaping or avoiding these sessions as they were mandatory for eventually making up. I had to acquiesce to his gaslighting or at the very least admit that he was probably right, so there there could be peace in my home and life. Oh and of course, these always concluded with makeup sex. If HE was happy, we were all happy. (He does have FOO stuff that was not disclosed to me until after we were married. I loved unconditionally, however and of course had no idea how that might ruin my life one day.)
> 
> 27 years of this, with me begging him to go to anger management from around 2 years in. Crazy that I was so loyal that I stayed through all of that. The only thing that could make me angry enough to leave (and apparently I DID HAVE TO BE ANGRY to leave) was the reason that brought me here in the first place!
> 
> ...


*THIS* last part describes abusive behavior.


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## Avgman (Jan 18, 2019)

Jakobs said:


> @Avgman There is literally ZERO that you could've done to have prevented her from straying. It's the sad reality. As Donovan Sharpe likes to say: "You cannot keep cheaters from cheating, you can only make it hard for them to cheat by minimizing the situations in which the behavior is triggered."
> 
> I see many people, men and women, going above and beyond for their SO, doing extra things for them that they wouldn't ordinarily do, all in the hopes that the spouse doesn't stray. The problem is that while they're doing this, the spouse is making plans and thinking about the make out session he/she's going to engage in the day after at the mall parking lot.


Yes, I agree...there is nothing you can do. I decided to stay, that was a decision I made to see my son graduate highschool, which he has done and actually bought his own place all at 19 years old. Really proud of him. I don't think he was completely ready, but his mom's constant nagging pushed him into the decision faster. 

I don't know what will become of us two now. She consciously doesn't want to leave, I've set myself up to retire pretty comfortably, and live a decent lifestyle now. She really never did much for herself, played victim because of her mom's outlook on life. Her family definitely has a pattern. I'm husband number 2 fory wife....her mom married 6 times now, and her brother married 3 times now. Still young folks too...50's, 30's and my wife just turned 40. 

It's a slippery slope for me...I don't care enough to share what I've worked for with her if she leaves. I don't spy on her, I don't check on her, etc. There are already red flags everywhere you look. I'm hoping she just up and leaves at some point. I've seen her at a guy's house she worked with on the life 360 app, she says she wasn't it must have been a glitch, haha. Okay. And now she's at a new job she talks about a slightly older guy a lot. I've seen her put the heart emoji on his profile pictures of himself, etc...they also comment back and forth all day on each other's post. 

We've actually started doing a little medical cannabis, and boy she talks way too much on that...she's said a few things that she instantly regrets. She would drop her pants in a second if she was taking a gummy and around these guys, if she hasn't already. 

Like I said, I know it's just a matter of time before she says she's found someone and wants to move out.... I'm just waiting patiently.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

CraigBesuden said:


> 42-45% percent of first marriages end in divorce.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pfft this theory acts like her spouse and his behavior has nothing to do with it. What a joke!!!!

If a college educated woman who comes from an intact great family marries a man who becomes an asshole as the years go by (his issue, not hers) the divorce risk is quite high, not low.

In fact, I'd postulate that if a college educated woman with a healthy sense of self marries a man who turns into an asshole, the chances of divorce are probably GREATER than if that man is with an insecure uneducated woman. The woman who can support herself and won't subject herself to a ****ty ****ty marriage is the one who will pull the divorce trigger because she is ABLE to leave, and, her parents' marriage showed her what a healthy relationship should be like.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Jakobs said:


> Woundidwife, keeping silent *ISN'T* abuse. I did it all the time with my XW precisely because I didn't want to let the moment get the best of me and have me say anything I regreted later. Distance does it for men. It has *NOTHING* to do with you or your feelings. Some men take minutes to get over the anger and others require more. Your ex was a narcissist, plain and simple.
> 
> 
> 
> *THIS* last part describes abusive behavior.


********.

Weeks of silent treatment is absolutely abusive. It's laughable that you are trying to normalize _weeks of silent treatment_ as just something a guy will do. You need help.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Livvie said:


> ******.
> 
> Weeks of silent treatment is absolutely abusive. It's laughable that you are trying to normalize _weeks of silent treatment_ as just something a guy will do. You need help.


Actually, weeks of the silent treatment in some marriages would be a gift not abuse. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

All joking aside, this my be my cynical side talking, but I don't see any upside to marriage for ANYONE. And for what it's worth, I didn't talk to my XW at all the last few weeks we were together once I found out what she did.


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## Jakobs (6 mo ago)

Livvie said:


> ******.
> 
> Weeks of silent treatment is absolutely abusive. It's laughable that you are trying to normalize _weeks of silent treatment_ as just something a guy will do. You need help.


Weeks, yes, not hours. Hence it's not the silence that should bother her, it should be her mate's unwillingness to communicate.

Silence is not abuse.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

Livvie said:


> Pfft this theory acts like her spouse and his behavior has nothing to do with it. What a joke!!!!
> 
> If a college educated woman who comes from an intact great family marries a man who becomes an asshole as the years go by (his issue, not hers) the divorce risk is quite high, not low.
> 
> In fact, I'd postulate that if a college educated woman with a healthy sense of self marries a man who turns into an asshole, the chances of divorce are probably GREATER than if that man is with an insecure uneducated woman. The woman who can support herself and won't subject herself to a ****ty ****ty marriage is the one who will pull the divorce trigger because she is ABLE to leave, and, her parents' marriage showed her what a healthy relationship should be like.


Oh man, does this hit home! 

I guess I didn’t have a solid sense of myself anymore, however, at my core I was stubbornly loyal. Cheating is something I would NEVER do and NEVER tolerate. DEAL.BREAK.ER.

Also, my parents did NOT (and still do not) set a healthy relationship example for me or my siblings. (Also emotionally abusive…my poor mother. However, the tables have turned and now my mother is the aggressor. They will never separate. I have tried to talk sense to them.)


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## Jakobs (6 mo ago)

Woundidwife said:


> I guess I didn’t have a solid sense of myself anymore, however, at my core I was stubbornly loyal.


Believe it or not, that is a quality that is top 3 in most guy's lists.

Sorry to say, but you paired up with a narcissist a-hole.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

Jakobs said:


> Believe it or not, that is a quality that is top 3 in most guy's lists.
> 
> Sorry to say, but you paired up with a narcissist a-hole.


😔. Yeah, I did.


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## UAArchangel (2 mo ago)

Woundidwife said:


> 😔. Yeah, I did.


Marriage is supposed to be a tent, with the man being the canvas to protect the family within and the woman is the tent pole to provide support so the husband can play his role. That's the way it is supposed to be.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

UAArchangel said:


> Marriage is supposed to be a tent, with the man being the canvas to protect the family within and the woman is the tent pole to provide support so the husband can play his role. That's the way it is supposed to be.


I love this analogy!!


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> I love this analogy!!


But I thought the woman got the pole??? 🤔


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## UAArchangel (2 mo ago)

Numb26 said:


> But I thought the woman got the pole??? 🤔


If she's not the pole, how else will she stab you in the back?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Numb26 said:


> But I thought the woman got the pole??? 🤔


Hmm...this IS confusing...!!!! Lol!!


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## karmagoround (Aug 27, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> Just wow. I don’t get some of you guys. The hatred and distrust has now spread to an entire gender for many of you. That’s pretty sad. As for me, I seriously wonder why I even keep coming back to TAM most of the time. It offends me to read this crap, like I don’t hurt as much or it’s not as bad for me that I got cheated on because of my gender.
> 
> Women are not as open with their feelings as men? You have got to be kidding me. That’s ridiculous! Women will have a ONS as long as we can get away with it? SERIOUSLY??? Oh and don’t forget women are expert deceivers and liars!!! Men are just so honest by nature then but not us women.
> 
> I just can’t anymore. I really thought that TAM was a place for shared experiences, support, and community. This stuff ^ says it all. And it’s not just one or two threads it’s all over every thread now. Gender wars for no reason but having to turn the hate outward instead of using the pain to help one another.


Hey QR, You are right, this thread is a bunch of hooey. But I think you are being a bit sensitive about the ramblings of old men.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

UAArchangel said:


> Marriage is supposed to be a tent, with the man being the canvas to protect the family within and the woman is the tent pole to provide support so the husband can play his role. That's the way it is supposed to be.


That analogy works well enough…as long as the canvas doesn’t put excessive weight on the frame…otherwise the tent is not nearly as sturdy as it may appear.


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