# Update on Philat's Story



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Seems hard to believe that after years of shadow boxing W and I have made some kind of breakthrough in bringing R to a qualitatively higher level, but I think that’s what happened, and TAM had a lot to do with it.

My story is here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/128778-philats-story-coping-never-ceases.html

My W uses her iPhone and iPad for most of her social interaction, but she has a company-issued laptop that she brings home occasionally. Last Sunday she used it and left it unlocked. Recalling that she had used work email a lot to communicate with (and about) both Keith and Melvin in the past, I took the opportunity to check it out, and in her recent browsing history found that she had looked up Melvin through his professional organization’s website. I could see no evidence of actual contact (either here or in phone or personal email), but after NC this was not good. I confronted her. She was completely taken by surprise, and swore that she was just curious whether Melvin still worked there. Didn’t even try to play the privacy card, just abject (and tearful) apologies for a “stupid mistake.” I think she sensed a potential deal breaker. It was in fact a major trigger.

I decided to act by showing her my original TAM posting with the rest of the thread, and really let her have it about letting me suffer in ignorance for so many years. It all came welling up. She lost it. Crying, wailing actually, on the floor begging forgiveness. I’d never seen this behavior before. I had also never felt as resolute about standing up for myself in this whole affair. I told her I was tired of being a doormat, always letting her make it about her, that it was not about her but about me. Thank you, TAM.

So after she was able to calm down and read the whole thread I told her we would sit down and talk with the honesty and respect of people who have loved each other for over 40 years. She gave me the whole Keith timeline. Some of it I had already pieced together, but she had never laid it out like this before. She still swears there was no PA. I am as sure of this as I ever can be, which is not and never will be 100 percent. She demonstrated a lot of self-awareness, describing the EA as a “fantasy” and her involvement as an “addiction.” Some of it was as almost as difficult for me to hear as it was for her to tell. Interestingly, she said that when Keith died he “gave her her life back” (recall that by this time the “affair” part of their relationship was long finished). She again hoped that sometime in in the future I could forgive her, and that she wanted me to stop hurting. Lots of tears.

OK, I said, what about Melvin? Melvin is a pig, she said. My response: No sh!t. She could offer no explanation as to why she let him take such liberties in his communication with her, other than that they shared a connection through Keith. She had no emotional investment in this man, which I believe. I also learned about a meeting she had with him IRL (a dinner with others present). I think they met face to face on only three occasions. She will not be contacting him, I am confident.

I told her I needed her device codes and passwords. She gave them. And she again asked me if I could ever forgive her. I said that for years I’d been telling her I needed 1) sincere expression of remorse; 2) full disclosure about both Keith and Melvin; 3) complete transparency. If she had really finally given me all of this the chances of forgiveness were high. If there was any deceit (secret email account, burner phone, more trickle truth) it was all over. She said she understood that even at this late date she has to earn back trust. That night we held each other for a long time, and I felt the boulder on my chest roll away (not to be overly dramatic about it).

So that’s where we are now. It will continue to be a work in progress, as every R is. In my OP I contended that we were a happy and loving couple, and I stand by this contention. But there was always this undercurrent….. I’m hoping this is gone now. If I had not found the motivation to tell TAM my story (thanks, sammy3!) I would not have been able to bring everything out in the open, and the business with W browsing for Melvin would have been just another one of our periodic skirmishes. I am certain that W’s long-term rug-sweeping was not due to the concealment of anything major, but to fear of articulating the truth of what happened, out of both guilt and concern that I would take some kind of revenge. I told her that I had not been seeking to punish her (which is how she saw it whenever I would bring up my unresolved issues) but to get help from her in order to move on. She gets that now. And to answer the question raised in another thread on CWI: Yes, the cheater can definitely suffer too. 

Thanks again to everyone who responded to my OP and to all the TAMers who have told their stories.


----------



## BK23 (Apr 17, 2013)

sigh...

You still don't have the truth. Schedule a poly and I guarantee she changes her tune about the PA.


----------



## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

Melvin refers to your wife's relationship with Keith as "friends with benefits" and she still swears no PA?

What does this Melvin character's "benefit" refer to then?

Don't get too lax yet. Even I can see more is yet to come, from out here, two continents away.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

verpin zal said:


> Melvin refers to your wife's relationship with Keith as "friends with benefits" and she still swears no PA?
> 
> What does this Melvin character's "benefit" refer to then?
> 
> Don't get too lax yet. Even I can see more is yet to come, from out here, two continents away.


Nah. Melvin is a leering sleazebag who would say anything to get a rise out of people. I don't put any credence in what he says. I've seen him in action.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

BK23 said:


> sigh...
> 
> You still don't have the truth. Schedule a poly and I guarantee she changes her tune about the PA.


Maybe, BK, but for me the law of diminishing returns applies here. After all this time, and everything else that's happened, and where we are now, it really wouldn't make much difference.


----------



## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

If Melvin is such a pig, why is he taking up space in your wife's head? Why is she so drawn to "Melvin the pig"?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

BK23 said:


> sigh...
> 
> You still don't have the truth. Schedule a poly and I guarantee she changes her tune about the PA.


Wow. Tough crowd.


----------



## BK23 (Apr 17, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> Wow. Tough crowd.


You really think Phil has the truth? Maybe I've spent too much time on this board, but I don't believe for a single moment that his wife didn't engage in a PA.


----------



## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

so in a nut shell
blah blah blah
she broke no contact
blah blah blah
no consequences
blah blah blah
her word is good enough for you


sigh...You are helping her discover just how deep she must take this underground before you stop catching her and she can eat her cake...thats the ONLY lesson she has learned...

patiently awaiting the next installment to this saga


----------



## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

Tobyboy said:


> If Melvin is such a pig, why is he taking up space in your wife's head? Why is she so drawn to "Melvin the pig"?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


because she doesnt really think he is a pig...doy!!!

Actions speak louder than words...her actions certainly dont math her words....at least from what Ive read...


----------



## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

Sounds like she was considering some bacon on the side and broke down once caught. Hopefully it's real remorse this time. Just my 2c


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

BK23 said:


> You really think Phil has the truth? Maybe I've spent too much time on this board, but I don't believe for a single moment that his wife didn't engage in a PA.


You know mate, I don't think he has the truth. Wazza also suspects he didn't get whole truth either; married 30 years. Philat has been married 40 years. I've only been _alive_ 41. Perspective, idealism, shared experience; it's a different marriage than I have after 11 years.

I think Philat came to terms with the 'fact' she had a PA a long time ago. So, it's not the text-book perfect R. And it's not the perfect marriage. But who has one of those?


----------



## CalBanker (Oct 8, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> Wow. Tough crowd.


Yeah, Azteca, this is what I mean in regards to some of my other responses with my thread.

Always glass half empty. Not the way I want to live.


----------



## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

CalBanker said:


> Yeah, Azteca, this is what I mean in regards to some of my other responses with my thread.
> 
> Always glass half empty. Not the way I want to live.


Actually, it's quite the opposite. It's a glass that's chock full of recognition of the red flags that so many choose to ignore.

Like yourself, I'm terribly afraid.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Tobyboy said:


> If Melvin is such a pig, why is he taking up space in your wife's head? Why is she so drawn to "Melvin the pig"?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I must have been unclear on some of the timing here. Melvin has been out of the picture for a few years. My snooping since 2006 has revealed no new evidence of any affairs. We're talking stuff that happened mid-80's thru late 90's.

ETA: Mid-80's thru late 90's for Keith. Melvin has not been spotted since 2009.


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Philat:

She is being as transparent as possible. 

What possible reason would she have to lie, at this point. So long after the EA.

So she looked up some guy out of curiosity. So?

She appears to be regretful and sad. She seems to want you and love you. 

If it was a PA as well as an EA, what difference does it make, now? It's over.

You want to stay married. She wants you. 

If she is lying about the PA, she is doing it to preserve the marriage. 

Keep checking as you need to ensure she is not cheating. 

Trust but verify, at this point.

As another poster prior mentioned. What marriage is perfect?


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

CalBanker said:


> Yeah, Azteca, this is what I mean in regards to some of my other responses with my thread.
> 
> Always glass half empty. Not the way I want to live.


Philat, apologies in advance for the threadjack.

CalBanker, I reiterate every poster that posted on your thread did so with the best of intentions. Their sole intention was for you to realise that your marriage is under threat. We _love_ good marriage here. We want your offspring to have two loving parents in a great marriage.

Sometimes people who come here are in denial. Posters have to work hard to get them to understand the situation they are in. Read enough threads here and you'll understand that your marriage is not a unique snowflake, it's just the same as so many we see here. Posters on your thread were only doing whatever they could to help you.

Sorry Philat.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

missthelove2013 said:


> so in a nut shell
> blah blah blah
> she broke no contact
> blah blah blah
> ...


When did she break no contact? By looking Melvin up on an organizational website??


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Philat:
> 
> She is being as transparent as possible.
> 
> ...


You got it, Remorseful.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You have reached a point of respect. If you feel that her remorse is genuine, then you are headed for the sun.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> You have reached a point of respect. If you feel that her remorse is genuine, then you are headed for the sun.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


This is where I believe we are.

Open response to all posters: I appreciate all the points of view. I am no more or less sure about the PA now than I have ever been--as I told W at one point, she has given me the gift of doubt. And she cannot prove a negative (though it's her fault that such proof might be required in the first place).

But I struggled along with about 60 percent of the picture for years. Now I feel like I have at least 90. If the remaining 10 percent contains proof of a long-ago PA, well, so be it. I do not need this in order to move forward. My thanks again to everyone--I know you all have the best intentions.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> You know mate, I don't think he has the truth. Wazza also suspects he didn't get whole truth either; married 30 years. Philat has been married 40 years. I've only been _alive_ 41. Perspective, idealism, shared experience; it's a different marriage than I have after 11 years.
> 
> I think Philat came to terms with the 'fact' she had a PA a long time ago. So, it's not the text-book perfect R. And it's not the perfect marriage. But who has one of those?


I know I didn't get the full truth. I just don't know whether I got 99% or 1%. I also know it is too late. I will not believe her story without corroborating evidence and that is all gone. Philat seems to have more than I have in that regard.

He felt the boulder lift from his chest. I have given up on knowing that. One of the imperfections in my marriage. And we have been long enough at it that I am no longer waiting for the other shoe to drop.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> Philat:
> 
> She is being as transparent as possible.
> 
> ...


She is being as transparent as possible, but she may be lying about the PA? I cannot reconcile those two statements.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

Wazza said:


> She is being as transparent as possible, but she may be lying about the PA? I cannot reconcile those two statements.











Because you don't suffer from this.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Philat said:


> Nah. Melvin is a leering sleazebag who would say anything to get a rise out of people. I don't put any credence in what he says. I've seen him in action.


Don't read anymore threads on TAM. Many of the affair partners described here are jerks, sleazebags, druggies and people a normal spouse would CLAIM they would never do anything with.


----------



## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Don't read anymore threads on TAM. Many of the affair partners described here are jerks, sleazebags, druggies and people a normal spouse would CLAIM they would never do anything with.


:iagree:

It's hard to express just how true this is.


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

*100% TRUTH = 100% R 
*
In an ideal world yes. In your case Philat you have invested years of your life in R. Now you finally have a breakthrough. Don't drop the ball. Get the 100%. You deserve it!

One very important observation as posted by AlteDame on Rosie's thread yesterday is WS think that if they confess it's a PA the BS will automatically divorce them no matter what. So they own up to EA only. To be wicked and cynical, perhaps this is possibly because that is what they would do if it were them.

Tell her you will not leave her if she confesses it was a PA. 
Point out that you have stayed with her having assumed it was a PA. Say that you believe her 99% about the PA but you now want to ask her again. 
Add that you need to know because you want EVERY interaction between you from now on to be the truth. No 99%.
Make strong eye contact and note her body language when she answers. It should be similar to the body language she showed when she started telling you more of the truth. If it is different or she seems defensive, it is not a good sign. 

Also ask her why is she googling someone she refers to as a 'pig'. Normally we would avoid someone we thought of as a 'pig'. 
Tell her it doesn't sit right with you and was clearly done on her work laptop to keep it secret. She is still being secretive. This is not R and neither is what she did in terms of the spirit of the term 'NC'. 
She said it was 'curiosity' which is evading the question. 
Ask her why after all this time would she be interested in what he was doing. Has she been keeping tabs on him and googled him before. Seems like coincidence that the one time you were able to see her laptop she had been looking him up. 
To me it's also a 99%. There is still 1% of her invested in him in some way after so long (2009?). She needs to connect with that fully and make it 100%.

I feel you are almost there Philat. 

Keep up the surveillance. As long as it delivers something, however small, it must remain in place.


----------



## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Philat, i read your other read. There is no way that this not a PA. More accurately, the chances of this being only an EA is negligible. Just keep that in mind when you intend to reconcile

If Melvin is a pig, your wife was rolling with him in the same muddy pit and scheming with him against you.



> She changes all her passwords but I have no trouble breaking back in (I’m very good at solving puzzles). And I see that she and Melvin are discussing ways in which to deceive me into thinking they have become innocent. Melvin says he’ll make sure his emails are bland enough for his mother to read while saving the raunchy stuff for the phone (which he doesn’t know I have access to as well). She sent him one email in which she said she had a dream about a threesome with the two of them and Keith.


----------



## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

Ovid said:


> :iagree:
> 
> It's hard to express just how true this is.


LMMFAO!!!

Delusional anyone?? Like the wife is going to say
"he is HOTTER THAN HELL, I would pay money just to give him head, he is sweet, smart, funny, caring, passionate, everything your not...but I dont really want to be with him, I want you"

come on...peeps...really...this is the first clue I had when my girlfriend years ago cheated...she told me "no way, my boss is a nerd, not my type" and then I met him and the dude was rico suave...i KNEW her legs couldnt stay closed around him at the moment I met him...

I cant believe how much credence bs's put in the words that come out of the ws's mouth...this person cheated, lied and decieved...what makes you think they are done with the deception??

I know bs's really want to believe them, but I guess thats what TAM is for...a little loving smack upside the head


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

missthelove2013 said:


> come on...peeps...really...this is the first clue I had when my girlfriend years ago cheated.


Yep, that means you agree with Ovid and myself.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

missthelove2013 said:


> LMMFAO!!!
> 
> Delusional anyone?? Like the wife is going to say
> "he is HOTTER THAN HELL, I would pay money just to give him head, he is sweet, smart, funny, caring, passionate, everything your not...but I dont really want to be with him, I want you"
> ...











I might have mentioned it before, but this could explain it...


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

missthelove2013 said:


> because she doesnt really think he is a pig...doy!!!
> 
> Actions speak louder than words...her actions certainly dont math her words....at least from what Ive read...


'My Crazy Obsession': Pig-Obsessed Woman Spotlighted On TLC Series (EXCLUSIVE VIDEO)

What can I say? Some women are obsessed with pigs.


----------



## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

I think getting hostile with OP for not agreeing with us is not a good thing as a community.

Philat, you say that at this point, it doesn't matter if it was PA. But do you have any deal breakers ? You might want to think if you have any. Say it was decade long affair with K guy and it was definitely physical with Melvin. Would anything change ? You know, people travel for business. The OM could fly to your town or she could meet him at the business tour. 

Why did the Keith drink himself to death ? Could it be that he was devastated that your wife would never leave you for him ?(due to finances or kids) Would any such revelation matter at this point ?


----------



## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

I know so many "happy" unhappy marriages now since I've been going through this mess. And the funny part about it, these unhappy marriages are happily just riding right along, having kids, raising families, eating out at TGTF,'s,going to school, running errands, going to Drs. offices, going about their lives, as well as keeping secrets from each other. 

I look at people so differently now. Im at the airport, I wonder is that "calvin" over there? Or maybe, sitting nxt to me on a plane this man or women do they know if their life is about fall apart ? 

I thinks what the OP has lived w , while may not be the norm, is no more acceptable than other "real" problems people face, but has. Living w one person for a long time is a whole different world in its self.

~sammy


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Good luck and I disagree, there is no hostility. People just have different ways of expressing themselves.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Thanks all for your continued input. I'll respond further soon, but I wanted to say a couple of things in response to Warlock right away.

_Philat, you say that at this point, it doesn't matter if it was PA. But do you have any deal breakers ? You might want to think if you have any. Say it was decade long affair with K guy and it was definitely physical with Melvin. Would anything change ? You know, people travel for business. The OM could fly to your town or she could meet him at the business tour. _

I've long considered all of this. Forget the possibility of PA with Melvin. LTR with Keith that included PA? Sure, possible. Deal-breaker now? No. The only deal-breakers at this point would be new A's, not revelations about old ones. That's why I'm still vigilant.

_Why did the Keith drink himself to death ? Could it be that he was devastated that your wife would never leave you for him ?(due to finances or kids) Would any such revelation matter at this point ?_

Keith was the child of an alcoholic father, and accelerated his drinking when his W tossed him out (because of the drinking). However, my W and I have discussed the possibility that she was also part of his problem, in the sense that he could not have her. It's not that she wouldn't leave me for practical reasons--she was simply not available to him the way he might have wanted.

_I think getting hostile with OP for not agreeing with us is not a good thing as a community._

I'm not interpreting any of this input as hostility. We're all coming from our own contexts.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Philat said:


> Thanks all for your continued input. I'll respond further soon, but I wanted to say a couple of things in response to Warlock right away.
> 
> _Philat, you say that at this point, it doesn't matter if it was PA. But do you have any deal breakers ? You might want to think if you have any. Say it was decade long affair with K guy and it was definitely physical with Melvin. Would anything change ? You know, people travel for business. The OM could fly to your town or she could meet him at the business tour. _
> 
> ...


To my mind, your wife made three decisions. Two of them bad, one of them good.

She chose you as her husband. And then she chose to have flings, EAs, PAs whatevers. With two utter losers.

And then she re-confirmed her choice in husbands. You. Which, is pretty good, yes?:smthumbup:


----------



## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

He does not need to know everything, just enough to finally heal.


----------



## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

He does not need to know everything, just enough to move on and heal. Now maybe he can. We should support that.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

illwill said:


> He does not need to know everything, just enough to move on and heal. Now maybe he can. We should support that.


Thanks, ill. I think I can, and all of the perspectives that I've seen here have contributed to this.


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Philat said:


> Seems hard to believe that after years of shadow boxing W and I have made some kind of breakthrough in bringing R to a qualitatively higher level, but I think that’s what happened, and TAM had a lot to do with it.


Philat. It was SO worth it for you to come back to TAM. Just shows the good work that can be done on here. The advice is varied and comes from many different points of view and experiences and things can get heated at times with conflicting views.
In the end the BS has to sift through all of it and come to their own conclusion about what do to and what they are happy with. 

Seems you can put away your shadow boxing gloves now. Yay!


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

There was a couple of things in that opening post that actually made me feel uplifted on reading it. Hence my "Tough crowd" comment.



Philat said:


> I decided to act by showing her my original TAM posting with the rest of the thread, and really let her have it about letting me suffer in ignorance for so many years. It all came welling up. She lost it. Crying, *wailing actually, on the floor begging forgiveness. I’d never seen this behavior before.* I had also never felt as resolute about standing up for myself in this whole affair. I told her I was tired of being a doormat, always letting her make it about her, that it was not about her but about me. Thank you, TAM.


Firstly, there is the reaction of the spouse. Surely this is the the response that TAM would like from a confrontation? What's different to most of the stories on TAM is that the affair is over, the OM long dead. Finally, FINALLY, she 'gets it'. It's not about _her_, it's about HIM. That's a major breakthrough after decades of trying.



> That night we held each other for a long time, and I felt the boulder on my chest roll away (not to be overly dramatic about it).


The second point that struck me is the feeling that the OP felt. A burden had been lifted. The dynamic of their relationship has changed significantly.

The way I see it, is that their R has finally started. Yes, there's probably still some trickle truth. But at least OP's wife knows where he stands. There is no room for Melvin. It's a dealbreaker. Good.


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Wazza said:


> She is being as transparent as possible, but she may be lying about the PA? I cannot reconcile those two statements.


Well that's very sad. I think if you reread my post in its entirety it will become crystal clear. 

She is being transparent, now about her time and whereabouts. 

As for the past, if she already lied to Philat about the PA, she may feel that revealing that now can only hurt the reconciliation. 

That may be misguided but that is likely her fear, if she is in fact hiding a PA. Remember, maybe, too, she is telling the truth and it was only and EA. 

Lets not be judge jury and executioner. 

You seem to assume there was a PA, without evidence. 

I did not lie after DDay, because I know the harm that would continue to cause, but most people don't think that way. 

A lot of times on dday the cheater is just babbling and saying whatever pops into their heads as damage control. 

If your spouse is doing damage control, IMO, that's a good sign. That means they are desperately trying to save the marriage. 

If they were not, they would simply take half and move out and move on. 

Saving a marriage after infidelity is tough. Really, why bother, unless you really love your spouse and are regretful.

For me, I am the bread winner, it would be really easy for me to divorce and move on. 

I am only average looking, but I am tall and athletic and well packaged. And, now that I earn a very high income, women practically throw themselves at me. 

I chose to do the hard work of saving my marriage, because I wanted to, not because I needed to.


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

> Make strong eye contact and note her body language when she answers. It should be similar to the body language she showed when she started telling you more of the truth. If it is different or she seems defensive, it is not a good sign.


Philat:

Studies show that humans are very very poor lie detectors. Google this for yourself

I wouldn't put much stock in body language. Body language can be deceiving.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> Well that's very sad. I think if you reread my post in its entirety it will become crystal clear.
> 
> She is being transparent, now about her time and whereabouts.
> 
> ...


I understand and broadly agree with the big picture of your arguments, and I don't assume there was a PA.

But lying and transparency are opposites. If she is continuing to lie, however noble her motives, it is not transparent. And one of the fundamental themes I have seen all the time in TAM is spouses who lie thinking it will make things better and it makes things worse.

You didn't lie, well done. My wife did. The very last conversation she and I had about the affair was my catching her in a basic and fundamental lie from the previous conversation. Three are other lies I can see, but I cannot prove the truth and continuing to badger her would create all sorts of negatives. And the damage this does to our relationship is significant and irreversible.

Not planning to leave her, but in as much as your posts could be read as defending lies, I will say in my experience that is unwise advice.


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Wazza said:


> But lying and transparency are opposites. If she is continuing to lie, however noble her motives, it is not transparent. And one of the fundamental themes I have seen all the time in TAM is spouses who lie thinking it will make things better and it makes things worse.


I am sorry your wife lied to you. That sucks. It creates more distrust. It is UNWISE to lie. I think I made that clear. Her lie however is regarding a PAST event. Transparency applies to being an open book going forward so that the betrayed spouse can know that the affair is OVER.

If you understand and accept that Philat's wife's lie is rooted in a desire to do damage control. Misguided as it may be, it is her misguided way of preserving the marriage. 

The same goes for your wife, most likely. 

Also, please remember in both cases your wife's and Philat's we don't know for sure that they are IN FACT telling a lie. 

Best to let it go, as you already surmised, If you want to move forward. It's a benefit of the doubt type of thing.

That advice does not condone lying. But the reason she is doing it is really what Philat should focus on as well as her willingness to now be transparent to make Philat comfortable in knowing she is no longer having a connection with anyone, EA or PA.

Regarding your wife you said:


> Three are other lies I can see, but I cannot prove the truth and continuing to badger her would create all sorts of negatives. And the damage this does to our relationship is significant and irreversible.


I am glad to hear you figured out that continuing to badger her for irrelevant past details will be a negative in any reconciliation. 

I am sorry she lied. That is really upsetting for you, I am sure. If most WS's understood that lies, even to save the marriage are painful, the Marriage counselors would have a much easier job.

Yes, the damage is irreversible and indefensible. You need to start a new marriage. The old one was too broken. 

Now that issues are being aired, maybe things can now improve in at least some areas. Yes, the affair will always be a wound, but in time, it will be a scar rather than an open oozing wound.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> I am sorry your wife lied to you. That sucks. It creates more distrust. It is UNWISE to lie. I think I made that clear. Her lie however is regarding a PAST event. Transparency applies to being an open book going forward so that the betrayed spouse can know that the affair is OVER.
> 
> If you understand and accept that Philat's wife's lie is rooted in a desire to do damage control. Misguided as it may be, it is her misguided way of preserving the marriage.
> 
> ...


Why does transparency not apply to the past? 

Not sure if you know my story. Wife's affair was 23 years ago, we have moved on, we are ok.

And there have been plenty of stories on TAM where a penitent spouse confesses to a past indiscretion and it destroys the marriage. I get why some people lie.

But I will tell you as a betrayed spouse, I know my wife lied. I caught her. And the fact that she wil not come clean does damage. It creates barriers. It erodes trust. It makes my mind speculate on all sorts of scenarios that are almost certainly far worse than the reality. It is not impossible that at some future stage it would cause me to leave the marriage. 

She will never again be my safe place. If she had come clean that might have been avoided. Instead she demonstrated by her actions that she will put her own interests (staying married to me as she wants and avoiding public embarrassment) ahead of mine (the ability to determine my future with all the facts in my possession.)

A comment on the old and new marriage thing. I did that. But it wasn't enough to see it as a new marriage. Eventually I had to see it as the continuation of a marriage with one great big black mark on it. For healing.

Dunno if you still have secrets from your spouse, but think it's ok since they are in the past? Well I am not going to tell you your marriage will be better if you come clean...it might not survive. But I am telling you that my wife took the approach you are advocating and after 23 years it remains the single biggest hurt in my life.

And that is from someone who would also say his mariage is the best it has ever been.

Google and read Joseph's letter and you might understand why I cannot accept your phrase "irrelevant past details". They matter.

Is your wife looking at you over the breakfast table, wondering what other lies you are telling?


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

RS I am worried my last post, being very personal, might been seen as attacking. It's not. 

You as a WS and I as a BS are articulating two sides of the same dilemma. In such personal territory, of course this is going to cut a bit deep. But I respect the points you are making.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

I'm sympathetic to both arguments. The difference, I think, lies in the interpretation of the motivation for concealing something in the past. Remorseful sees it as protecting the future of the marriage, wazza as the cheater protecting herself (in his case). Wazza knows his W is lying (while I have no such knowledge). In each interpretation the marriage is best served by letting it go, but in wazza's case this is not without additional pain that could be eased with full disclosure.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Philat said:


> I'm sympathetic to both arguments. The difference, I think, lies in the interpretation of the motivation for concealing something in the past. Remorseful sees it as protecting the future of the marriage, wazza as the cheater protecting herself (in his case). Wazza knows his W is lying (while I have no such knowledge). In each interpretation the marriage is best served by letting it go, but in wazza's case this is not without additional pain that could be eased with full disclosure.


I get the idea that concealment is intended to protect the future of the marriage. 

First I'm saying the motivation is irrelevant to me. I still know my wife will lie. I cannot listen to her and assume she has told me the truth.

And the lie weakens the marriage. I have seen other marriages end because of this. The lie leaves you vulnerable, aching for what you had (or thought you had) before the affair. And then you meet someone else....someone with the same attraction as your spouse, but without the baggage.....and this can be years after the affair.

Link to Joseph's letter (I referenced this earlier) :

Joseph's Letter


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Wazza:

The reason why it's best to let go of the need to know every little detail in the past......, is because, you will NEVER BELIEVE that she has given you every little detail, no matter what she says. 

Your imagination will always kick into overdrive each and every time you are triggered.

That doesn't mean she was or is telling you lies. 

If you are happy, now, what difference does it make? 

My wife and I both feel communication has improved greatly.

Neither of us take advantage of the other. We are affectionate, we say please and thank you. 

We no longer treat each other like grumpy roommates. 

It's sad it took an affair to get us there. But sadly, after ten years, it was the wake up call we both needed.

The other day, my wife told me she would never want the old me back. She is so happy the way things are. I wouldn't want the old her back either. 

The marriage has improved.






Wazza said:


> Why does transparency not apply to the past?
> 
> Not sure if you know my story. Wife's affair was 23 years ago, we have moved on, we are ok.
> 
> ...


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> Wazza:
> 
> The reason why it's best to let go of the need to know every little detail in the past......, is because, you will NEVER BELIEVE that she has given you every little detail, no matter what she says.
> 
> ...


Slayer there is a difference between triggering and not trusting, vs catching my wife in a clear lie (which she eventually admits when confronted with the facts) then another, then another. I am wondering if you think I suspect her of lying. I don't I know.

And she never came clean. The last time we talked about it, it took me one sentence to trap her in a blatant upsetting lie over a basic detail. One sentence.

So I know she will lie.

Maybe you don't care if you can trust your closest friend. To me, whatever improvements happened in the marriage,no know she will lie. I know that in a tight situation. I cannot trust her word. 

You might think it is easy to just ignore that, I don't.


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

How are you Philat? 

You have generated some interesting discussion. I am definitely on the "full disclosure" side of the fence. 

I can remember the mantra of my parents. 
"Always tell the truth." 
In primary school it was hammered into us children on an ongoing basis. 
Later in high school I remember a classmate being given a prize by the headmistress at school assembly because she confessed when others lied about an innocent prank.
This teaching is universal in cultures ancient and modern. 

That the person you are closest to whom you love, your life partner, your confidant, your protector does not tell you the truth is one of the greatest pains there is, as evidenced here on TAM.

If I ask my partner a question I expect a truthful answer. Neither do I expect them to lie to me by non-disclosure. 

After all, that is what I do.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

********** said:


> How are you Philat?
> 
> You have generated some interesting discussion. I am definitely on the "full disclosure" side of the fence.
> 
> ...


Doing well, **********, thanks for asking. We're spending good quality time together (recall that we are empty nesters), talking openly and calmly about the issues that got us where we are and how to avoid their recurrence. These are out in the open thanks to my TAM education. The future is bright. W is reading HNHN (I already have) and I'm into MMSLP. Each of us is working on him/herself, to good effect. 

Some posters on my thread believed that I was/am still being played by not going for the jugular to reveal the PA they are certain took place. I appreciate their position. I am not a fool: W fell in love with another man; affair lasted a long time; I was not the least bit suspicious; they had ample opportunity for time alone together. I can calculate the probabilities and make my own assumptions. But it makes no difference either way now. The fact that I discovered her A years after the fact puts things in a different perspective than that of people who are in the middle of an ongoing situation or dealing with the immediate aftermath of betrayal, I think. My heart literally aches for them. 

For me the important thing is what W is doing now. And she's doing good things. As wazza said about his own fWW, she is a good risk. What I realize now is that there will always be risk, with anyone. I am learning new ways to mitigate it. To avoid this risk at all costs is to forsake love.


----------



## Hazelrah10 (Oct 31, 2013)

Well, I'm hoping for the best for you! And for me, too, as I work through my husband's recent betrayal.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Hazelrah10 said:


> Well, I'm hoping for the best for you! And for me, too, as I work through my husband's recent betrayal.


Thank you, Hazel, I wish you success as well.


----------



## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

Philat said:


> --------------Snip----------
> The fact that *I discovered her A years after the fact puts things in a different perspective* than that of people who are in the middle of an ongoing situation or dealing with the immediate aftermath of betrayal, I think. My heart literally aches for them.


It only means she deceived you for years, while looking straight into your eyes.



Philat said:


> For me the important thing is what W is doing now. *And she's doing good things.* As wazza said about his own fWW, she is a good risk. What I realize now is that there will always be risk, with anyone. I am learning new ways to mitigate it. To avoid this risk at all costs is to forsake love.


If she is still keeping serious stuff from you, she's also doing bad things. She's still deceiving you.

I put all the betrayal issues aside for thirty years while, in spite of proof, she denied and said it was all in my head.

After those thirty years I decided that continuing the deceit was enough not to continue living with WW. At age 68, what I valued in life most is respect from my significant other. Continued deceit and gaslighting is not respect. We've been separated for close to two years.


----------



## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

2asdf2 said:


> After those thirty years I decided that continuing the deceit was enough not to continue living with WW. At age 68,* what I valued in life most is respect from my significant other.* Continued deceit and gaslighting is not respect. We've been separated for close to two years.



This is simple and profound.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

2asdf2 said:


> It only means she deceived you for years, while looking straight into your eyes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In my case there is no proof or even strong evidence that anything significant is still being withheld, just uncertainty and suspicion on my part (which would be there, justified or not, as a result of the previous deception). I am able to live with this because she has been on the straight and narrow for several years. The suspicion is my burden to bear--hers is the knowledge that what she did cost her my complete trust. I am still working on forgiveness--this process only really started a few weeks ago after the watershed moment described at the beginning of this thread. So many years she wasted rug-sweeping.


----------



## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Recently, Jung_admirer posted this link in another thread:

http://rebeccajorgensen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Healing-Attachment-Summit-Wkbk-rev71212.pdf

When I read it, I realized our MC has studied this method of counseling couples. An "attachment injury" is what has happened to someone who has been betrayed by an unfaithful spouse, and it is very much like PTSD in the way it leaves us paranoid at worst, or needing to "trust but verify" at best.

You don't just "get over" this. Which is why rug sweeping only makes matters worse. Sincere apologies - evidence of remorse - help a lot. But new ways of communicating going forward are also essential. It's not as simple as it sounds, and old patterns die hard. I think it's very difficult to analyze your own particular couple patterns without a skilled third party to help you gain insight into how easy it is to fall into the traps of doing it in unhelpful, unloving ways. One of you is a little tired or a little stressed - it's so easy to fall back into bad habits. To communicate about difficult things on a deeper level, with true empathy, isn't something that comes naturally to most of us.

If you can do it on your own, you're a better man than I. Well, I'm not a man at all. But anyway. I'm a BS and I'm still dealing with a lot of grief and pain and trauma. I love my WS very much, and he's done a lot of work, both before we started MC and especially since we've been in MC. We still have a lot of work to do, but we've learned a lot and continue to learn. IMO, MC with a skilled therapist can make a world of difference in R.


----------



## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Philat said:


> In my case there is no proof or even strong evidence that anything significant is still being withheld, just uncertainty and suspicion on my part (which would be there, justified or not, as a result of the previous deception). I am able to live with this because she has been on the straight and narrow for several years. The suspicion is my burden to bear--hers is the knowledge that what she did cost her my complete trust. I am still working on forgiveness--this process only really started a few weeks ago after the watershed moment described at the beginning of this thread. So many years she wasted rug-sweeping.


When my wife came clean in April 2013, I knew it. She lied a little and that set me off and once she realized that any lie, no matter how small would set me off she has told me the truth.


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Philat I started a new thread.
I would love you to comment as I have always felt our situations are very similar. 
**********.


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Sorry to threadjack Philat. 

Mr & Mrs John Adams - I would REALLY like feedback from you both on the thread I just started. My knapsack of rocks is getting a bit heavy! 

**********.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

********** said:


> Philat I started a new thread.
> I would love you to comment as I have always felt our situations are very similar.
> **********.


That would be my honor, **********.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> philat....John and I are so very fond of you and wish you and your sweetheart the very best...We are so very happy to count you as our friends....a friendship that will last well beyond TAM.


Thank you Mrs JA -- you know I feel the same.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Philat
I think I understand a bit of your situation thanks to this thread. Correct any erorrs in my understanding. 
Brief recap is below:


You know your wife had an EM around 16- 20 years ago and kept it secret for many years. Around 7-8 years ago you found out about the EA and decided to R. around 6 months ago you found that she had looked up on her laptop a man (Melvin) that was associated with her affair man (Keith). You took a very strong opposition stance regarding her looking up Melvin that denounced your being anything like a door mat and you believe that she gave you the following:

1) Sincere expression of remorse

2) Full disclosure about both Keith and Melvin 

3) Complete transparency.

The above gave you a much better chance of completing the forgiveness that you are working on.

You have stated more than once that you are moving forward and 
*“For me the important thing is what W is doing now. And she's doing good things.”*

Yet you still get posters thinking that they know more than you about your wife’s truth and your R than you do!	Here are just a few reprinted below:




> You still don't have the truth. Schedule a poly and I guarantee she changes her tune about the PA
> 
> If Melvin is such a pig, why is he taking up space in your wife's head? Why is she so drawn to "Melvin the pig"?
> 
> ...



*Philat, I think that you are WAY AHEAD IN YOUR R!!!* Your absence of bitterness and revenge plus your optimism tells me that you have a much better chance than a 50/50 to continue your R and have a good marriage. *You now are able to take your forgiveness to a higher level and that will pay off for you BIG TIME now and in the future! * I am a BS with 25+ years of R and I would bet money on you being a success.

Also, I Just wanted you to know that you are another breath of fresh air here at TAM.


----------



## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

I agree with Blunt. Philat you were very supportive of me on my post and last night I was happy to find your threads. Good luck to you and your wife. 

As Mr Blunt said you know your situation better than anyone. Folks on here are quick to encourage you "to trust your gut" if you do suspect the worst but then accuse you of being a rug sweeper if your gut tells you there is nothing to worry about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Thank you Mr Blunt and Philly. I appreciate the kind words, and I feel that our future is good.

But I also understood where some of those other posters were coming from. Their input was very valuable--it enabled me to assume the worst, and realize that this was not a deal-breaker, as long as she keeps on the righteous path from here on.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

*To need the details of the past or not to need the details of the past?
That is the question*


This thread has also produced some very good posts on how to handle the past and the current R. *I think there are different CORRECT approaches to different situations*. In Philat’s case he is successful so far by concentrating on the now and the future

Philat has a little different approach to the past and how to handle the current R than some other posters. Philat does not have to know all the details of the past 10-30 years in order to move forward. Some people view this as “ignorance is bliss” but the bottom line is that Philat and his wife are salvaging a 40+ year marriage and he is not bitter or resentful and is in good place with his marriage. Ilwill wrapped it up this way


> Illwill
> He does not need to know everything, just enough to move on and heal.



Wazza who also has many years of successful R but is not completely satisfied with just concentrating on the now without honest disclosure of the past. If I am reading his post right he is dissatisfied with the details of the past and even the present. I think the main difference in Philat and Wazza is that Philat believes that his wife is not a proven continuing liar and has not left out any major details but Wazza feels that his wife has never convinced him that she has not left out some possible major details and he does not believe his wife as much as Philat believes his wife.


I may not be explaining both Philat and Wazza’s situation exactly but *my point is that a successful R can be achieved wanting to have all details and not wanting to have all details of the past.*


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

I believe wazza has solid evidence that his W is still lying. I do not have such evidence, only assumptions on what is the likely result of a very long-term EA.


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Sorry to interrupt again Philat. 
I just responded to your post in my thread.
I think you poked a stick in a hornet's nest LOL!
I will now go back and read what's been going on in your thread. 
Thanks again.
**********.

_“All I have to be thankful for in this world is that I was sitting down when my garter busted.” 
_― Dorothy Parker


----------



## confusedFather (Jul 15, 2012)

Philat said:


> If there was any deceit (secret email account, burner phone, more trickle truth) it was all over.


This quote is from your OP on this thread. In several posts since you have said new revelations about an old PA don't matter.

Have you really decided what does and doesn't matter yet.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Philat said:


> Maybe, BK, but for me the law of diminishing returns applies here. After all this time, and everything else that's happened, and where we are now, it really wouldn't make much difference.


You'd be cool if she's been telling you an EA was really a PA? 

She was looking up Melvin on her work PC.. it doesn't sound like she's in full honesty mode yet, or full remorse mode yet. Sorry you are going through this, but a remorseful wayward that's putting 100% into rebuilding the marriage isn't wondering about what Melvin is up to... they would feel disgusted about and by Melvin, and if that were the case, they would think 'I really don't even want to think about Melvin'... So why is she thinking about Melvin? .. and why would you not want to know if she's still holding back about the PA? That might be the real reason she's crying.. the struggle between wanting to lie and cheat, and you making her feel bad about it. I would hope my wife didn't look up her OM, and if she did, I would expect it to be a major setback, not a tiny bump. If she really wanted to know about Melvin, she should have had you look him up... or told you she wanted to, then did it... etc.. etc.. Sneaking, not good for someone that's supposedly being 'honest'.

I would think after all this time, everything that happened.. you'd want to know if it was real, or more smoke and mirrors.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade Philat.. Just trying to keep your eyes open.

I'm glad you're in a good place.. please just make sure she's really being honest with you, and not just doing a good job with damage control, telling you what you need to hear, and doing what she thinks you need her to do.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Did she think for a second that looking up Melvin was wrong, and perhaps being a bit disrespectful considering the circumstances? So much for wanting to be honest and not sneaky. Why would you believe this person is being honest with you? Because she cried on the floor? I bet.. caught again. That must suck.

I also wish them the best, and think the best shot comes from being honest with each other. She'll have to start by being honest with herself... asking the question, 'why am I still thinking about Melvin the pig?'


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> *To need the details of the past or not to need the details of the past?
> That is the question*
> 
> 
> ...


I get the vibe that Philat WANTS to believe it wasn't a PA, so he's helping his WS back that up for him.

If he really wanted the truth, he'd get it. She's looking up Melvin, and he's totally cool with it. No big deal, little slip.. oops, looking up men on the Internet from someone with a history of at least EAs... sounds super remorseful.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Originally Posted by Mr Blunt*
> To need the details of the past or not to need the details of the past?
> That is the question
> 
> ...



Russell
Philat has stated that he is convinced that Melvin is not a threat that Melvin was only in the picture because he was a connection to the real threat Keith. As a BS myself I can only imagine that any BS that has had his wife contact a connection to her EA/PA would have to be certain that the connection (Melvin) was not a real threat.


IOW, we have the choice to believe Philat, the one that was hurts so bad by his wife, or our vibes. *So far I choose to believe Philat as he has been monitoring her activities for over 7 years and has only found that she looked up Melvin through his professional organization’s website*. That was a HUGE stupid mistake my Mrs. Philat and I hope that she understands that activity can set back the R many years and in the case of additional stupid moves like that can ruin the R. Sometimes I am baffled by a WS that is so lacking in understanding. Philat’s love for her is directly related to the trust that she builds and she put a dent in that trust with her stupid Melvin interest. *Man I can barley believe a person trying to build trust would do something that foolish!*


*If Mrs. Philat was really interested in Melvin she could have contacted him directly*.* In addition if she was really interested in Melvin she would have covered her tracts that she had on the lap top*. Who would bring home a laptop that has communication from an OM? A person that is planning an affair is going to be very diligent in eliminating that communication with the OM. She not only did not erase the communication she brought the lap top home where her husband is!


I think that Philat is a very level headed person with good abilities. He has not found anything for 7 years and she could not hide her sexual /emotional desires for another man for 7 years IMO. 



I am sure that Philat will read this thread when he gets back and I hope that his wife knows how lucky she is to have a man like Philat that has not taken the position that Russell has taken. *She also should be very grateful that she has not been kicked to the street because cheating women in their 50s and 60s are not in great demand.*


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Philat's story is very painful. There is a sort uniqueness to the destruction his wife visited on their universe.

A WS could look up an AP out of curiosity. Admittedly, it is not healthy if wistful desire is the driver. They could also be morbidly curious. The AP should not be on their mind all the time.

The bottom line is how Philat's wife makes him feel. Is she loving?


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Russell...why would you want to make philat feel bad? If he is happy then that's what counts hon. What you or I may need may differ from what he needs.
> 
> Infidelity does not have the same rules for every body. We do the best we can with our own situations. I cannot tell you how to deal with your situation because we are all different.
> 
> ...


I love how you spin my wanting him to get truth instead of bull into not supporting him, and me wanting to make him feel bad.

Nice twist, but you couldn't be more off target.

I just don't want to see the guy wake up 30 years from now still struggling with this.. or have a dday2, yes it does happen very often around here. Is that me wanting to make him feel bad? No hon, it's not.


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

I see where you are coming from Russell. 
A long time ago I posted on Philat's thread and was one of many telling him that he should go for the truth, 100% truth and he ended up doing so. However he still says he feels he doesn't necessarily have it. 
His situation is not unlike my own. 
He says he loves Mrs Philat but I can't help detecting a tinge of sadness underpinning his posts that a spouse in a healthy marriage wouldn't display. 
All marriages are painful at times but the pain around betrayal is like no other. 

Philat, I'm sure you'll read this when you get back. You posted on my thread recently at my request. Thank you. For me I have decided that I can't accept anything but 100% truth.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> No...you want him to do it your way.
> 
> See if he is happy with the way things are....and he has indicated that...then it is not up to you or me to try to save him.
> 
> ...


I want him to do it, the right way. With honesty, not candy coating and more deception... I realized when I saw a post by a banned user that this was an old thread. I wonder if Philat ever got the whole story, or if he's still being TT'd..

He may not be asking for help, but I'm offering it up anyway. Because he might not want it, doesn't invalidate it my thoughts and opinions.

It has nothing to do with wanting things my way, it has to do with chances for success in R, long term success.. not a few months or a year or so, then some TT, then some crying and hugging... repeat. That's not how to do it. That's not coming from me, that's coming from lots of reading on the topic.




Mrs. John Adams said:


> Moon shadow...if you need 100%. Then you should not accept anything else. What philat is willing to accept is his own business and I respect his decision. You resurrected this thread. This is not his present situation.
> .



Any BS should get 100%... I thought you 'got it' Mrs. Adams. Now you're cool with 90%... or have you always been? What's a good percentage of honesty for a successful R?


----------



## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

russell28 said:


> -----------snipped for brevity-----------
> 
> Any BS should get 100%... I thought you 'got it' Mrs. Adams. Now you're cool with 90%... or have you always been? What's a good percentage of honesty for a successful R?


That's the problem for xWS. Their opinions are often viewed in the context of their past conduct.

Is that their burden to bear?


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Moon shadow...if you need 100%. Then you should not accept anything else. What philat is willing to accept is his own business and I respect his decision. You resurrected this thread. This is not his present situation.
> 
> While stories can have threads of similarities flowing through them...we as people are all very different. So each if us has to handle our own situations the best way we can. Philat loves and adores his wife. He is in a good place. It may not be what you or I think it should be..but if he and his wife are happy then we should accept it.


I do recall asking Philat how things were going at some stage which I presume I'm free to do. It was not in the spirit of a nosey neighbour and I was surprised at your use of 'resurrected'.  

I also recently posted on his thread to ask him to comment on my thread as I was interested in his thoughts on my situation. Perhaps that is the post you are referring to. 

I always enjoy Philat's well-expressed and philosophical posts. He strikes me as a true gentleman of the old school.

With all due respect I don't think any of us on here should be delivered a lecture unless we are being abusive of course. 

Oh dear. I have been rapped on the knuckles it seems.


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Yes it is my burden to bear.
> 
> WE ALL come here with our opinions formed from our own experiences...xbs and xws alike. I have been both...mr adams has been both. I know how it feels to betray and I know how it feels to be betrayed. I dont like either one.


On a different note entirely Mrs JA. 
Mr JA was a WS too??? 

I missed that somehow in reading your posts. Was it a revenge A? 

Sometimes I think I should have one myself   

Only kidding but honestly as time goes by I think the only way for WS to understand the pain of betrayal is to have it done to them!


----------



## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

********** said:


> On a different note entirely Mrs JA.
> Mr JA was a WS too???
> 
> I missed that somehow in reading your posts. Was it a revenge A?


Yes, as has been posted before, I had an RA.


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> Yes, as has been posted before, I had an RA.


Thank you Mr JA. 
I will seek it out on the morrow.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

********** said:


> as time goes by I think the only way for WS to understand the pain of betrayal is to have it done to them!


I think for many WS they don't feel the betrayal anywhere near the way the rest of us do.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Russell...this is not about me so we will leave me out of it. what applies in my situation is not necessarily what is right for Philat or you or anybody else.
> 
> If Philat is happy with his situation the way it is then I accept that my opinion no longer matters. He has been living his Reconciliation for many years. There is no right or wrong...
> We glean from the advice of others what is applicable in our own situations....whether it is text books or forums etc. Not all advice applies. We do the best we can do.
> ...


It was a rhetorical question, clearly you're okay with less than 100% honesty if the BS is good with that. To say there is no right or wrong is silly.. of course there is a right and wrong.

Right.. truth.

Wrong.. trickle truth.


Right.. NC

Wrong.. NC with a touch of sneaking around to look up the guy who's a pig but was friends with the guy you had an affair with....


Right.. calling a PA a PA

Wrong.. calling a PA an EA

Some things work much better than others in R, in all cases. Honesty works better than lying. Openness beats out sneaking. Owning it works better than minimizing. Etc.. etc..

I don't consider myself damaged goods..


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Just read the story. No way it didn't go PA in all that time IMO.
Philats W was super deceptive, disrespectful, and continued to see OM secretly after Dday.

I wouldn't be OK with it, but if Philat is fine with an obviously Tt account of the A, then it is what it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

To all of those that say they would never be OK without knowing 100% that their spouse didn't have a PA: guess what - nobody gets that guarantee.

Unless you lock your spouse in the basement, they could cheat. People have jobs, they leave their spouse alone for 8+ hours a day. If someone wants to cheat, they can.

What do so many BH's say when they find out? "I never imagined my wife would be a cheater."

How did they find out? Their spouse was a bad cheater. There are plenty of people who go their whole lives not knowing they were betrayed. Once you look at it through that lens, Phitat's choice doesn't seem so bad.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> To all of those that say they would never be OK without knowing 100% that their spouse didn't have a PA: guess what - nobody gets that guarantee.
> 
> Unless you lock your spouse in the basement, they could cheat. People have jobs, they leave their spouse alone for 8+ hours a day. If someone wants to cheat, they can.
> 
> ...


If you want to put on those distorted glasses, where it's okay to continue to be lied to, even after finding out.. where it's cool to be disrespected, because 'people have jobs and can cheat if they want to'... then I guess it's not so bad. 

You can't do anything about something you don't know about.. but once you know about something, you sure can do something about it. 

You can't 'un-know' it.. Any time I see a BS that I think is being TT'd, or lied to.. I wonder if they are in false R, I wonder if they'll be back here in a few decades asking why they're still struggling. 

Your comments sound like a cheaters justifications.... "everybody is doing it... all the cool kids, so it's no big deal.."


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

I think what matters most in this discussion about knowing vs. not knowing is whether the BS wants to know or not. I hate it when someone else pretend to know better than me if I can handle the knowledge or not, and if I should be allowed to make decissions on my own.

If Philat is OK with not knowing and says so, so be it, fine with me. The trouble is that it's almost always the CS who decides how much of the truth the BS can take.

If however Philat says "I want the whole truth" and thinks he's got it, and someone else thinks otherwise, I think it's OK to point it out by asking questions, pointing out inconsistancies and "odd facts". Why else would you post on a public forum?


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

cpacan said:


> I think what matters most in this discussion about knowing vs. not knowing is whether the BS wants to know or not. I hate it when someone else pretend to know better than me if I can handle the knowledge or not, and if I should be allowed to make decissions on my own.
> 
> If Philat is OK with not knowing and says so, so be it, fine with me. The trouble is that it's almost always the CS who decides how much of the truth the BS can take.
> 
> If however Philat says "I want the whole truth" and thinks he's got it, and someone else thinks otherwise, I think it's OK to point it out by asking questions, pointing out inconsistancies and "odd facts". Why else would you post on a public forum?


This is eminently fair.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Philat's story is very painful. There is a sort uniqueness to the destruction his wife visited on their universe.
> 
> A WS could look up an AP out of curiosity. Admittedly, it is not healthy if wistful desire is the driver. They could also be morbidly curious. The AP should not be on their mind all the time.
> 
> The bottom line is how Philat's wife makes him feel. Is she loving?


Yes she is, LongWalk. This is the bottom line.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

confusedFather said:


> This quote is from your OP on this thread. In several posts since you have said new revelations about an old PA don't matter.
> 
> Have you really decided what does and doesn't matter yet.


Yes. At this point what matters is what happens (or doesn't) from here on out.


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Philat said:


> Yes she is, LongWalk. This is the bottom line.


This is where I'm at Philat.

I will never know 100%, how can I, how can anyone? How many men or women are in amazingly happy marriages but with an unknown, long buried infidelity in their past?

One of the reasons that I nearly always advise at least exposing to the other spouse is that without my being told I would never have known somebody was sniffing around. I was able to take action and advise the guy that it was against his best interests to continue pursuing my wife.

My wife has assured me time and again that nothing happened, and to be honest I have a wonderful marriage with a woman who loves and adores the pants off me and that I love too. Need I obsess any more about what might or might not have happened 20+ years ago?


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Wow, I take a couple of days off to visit my 87-year old mother and my thread comes to life again!

Thanks to all who have posted in the last couple of days. I would "like" all of them except that would make the "like" function meaningless, wouldn't it?

russell: I get your drift. My eyes are open. Since being on TAM I have moved from not knowing if there was a PA with Keith but being able to live with this because of all the other positives and my certainty that whatever there was is over (Keith is dead) and that nothing new has happened (channeling wazza here) to assuming there *was *a PA but being able to live with this because [repeat from above]. It isn't a deal-breaker. The fact that this all happened in the past is crucial here--if I had busted an ongoing affair the whole feel would probably have been different. The looking up Melvin thing was a trigger, but not in itself a major development. She could easily have contacted him anytime she wanted, as Mr Blunt says.

I now assume there was a PA. Maybe there was, maybe there wasn't. If there was she does not have to admit it at this late date in order for me (us) to move forward. I have learned from Mrs_Mathias that a WW can be truly remorseful and still not be able to bring herself to tell the whole truth. BTW, I have told my W that I assume there was a PA. If there was not and I am wrong and she is being "unjustly accused" well, that's the price to be paid for the past lying and deception, isn't it?

ConanHub: Just to make sure I've been clear, Dday occurred long after any real affair was going on. By that time OM was a nonfunctioning unemployed alcoholic who was lying to friends and family about everything, and he was dying. Physically and hygienically he was a mess. Yes, my W lied about seeing him, but by then she thought her mission was to "save" him. Still lying I know, and I called her on it.

**********: Your points are all valid and well-taken. Thank you.

Mr Blunt and larry.gray: You have grasped my story and my viewpoint absolutely correctly.

Mr and Mrs JA: Thank you for all your support and friendship. I am where I am thanks largely to you, which I have very publicly acknowledged elsewhere on TAM.


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

russell28 said:


> If you want to put on those distorted glasses, where it's okay to continue to be lied to, even after finding out.. where it's cool to be disrespected, because 'people have jobs and can cheat if they want to'... then I guess it's not so bad.
> 
> 
> 
> Your comments sound like a cheaters justifications.... "everybody is doing it... all the cool kids, so it's no big deal.."


I certainly didn't get that feeling from Larry's post. All he was doing as far as I'm concerned is stating the real state of things for everyone.
No one can state 100% that their wife/husband has not had an affair. It is just impossible to tell.

Yes if you find out you can do something about it. If you have had a great marriage and find out that there was infidelity 20 years ago, 10 years ago, 10 weeks ago it is still the same marriage just with an added major stressor. It is up to the individual how they deal with it.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

WyshIknew said:


> This is where I'm at Philat.
> 
> I will never know 100%, how can I, how can anyone? How many men or women are in amazingly happy marriages but with an unknown, long buried infidelity in their past?
> 
> ...


You know the truth when you hear it, believe me...

It sounds like both you and Philat know there is part of the story you're not getting and are cool with that. I like that Philat let his wife know he can't trust her word, since she's not proven to be trustworthy.. and she's showing now that she's willing to work on regaining that.

It's never good to obsess, and I would expect that it's easier to obsess about something if you feel you don't have all the answers, no closure.. you're just filling in the blanks in your head. You still have a puzzle with a few holes in it.. it's pretty, it's kinda all there.. but you wish you just had those last couple pieces so you could knock it apart, toss it back in the box and not spend the next 20+ years wondering where they are..


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

russell28 said:


> It's never good to obsess, and I would expect that it's easier to obsess about something if you feel you don't have all the answers, no closure.. you're just filling in the blanks in your head. You still have a puzzle with a few holes in it.. it's pretty, it's kinda all there.. but you wish you just had those last couple pieces so you could knock it apart, toss it back in the box and not spend the next 20+ years wondering where they are..


Exactly. If there is anything left for my W to tell and she would tell it things would be better. But they are OK even so.


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Philat said:


> Exactly. If there is anything left for my W to tell and she would tell it things would be better. But they are OK even so.


Welcome back Philat. It seems I may have brought your thread to life again by asking you to post on mine. 

My WS has also been nothing but loving since D-day apart from his trickle truth which posters tend to point out is a very big deal. 

I followed your example and decided to assume the worst and live with it. 

We may move continents soon as my children and his child live there. I dearly want to. He will go on ahead of me and there is no way around that. It was when he was on that continent without me previously that he got up to his worst shenanigans. He met his EA for the first time and other women who I didn't even know existed. . . an ex and another he had the hots for at university long ago! He even pretended he was single to them. So him being there again without me is a huge trigger and it makes me see how insecure I still feel. So I started a thread. 

R IMO is BS feeling secure and happy in the knowledge that their spouse is once again faithful and will be in the future. *Philat, you are one of the few on here who has achieved R to your own satisfaction IMO. *

WS is so good at TT and so comfortable with it that he persisted with it for 4 years. He may be still doing TT so it is hardly reassuring *Therefore, might there be new events he will trickle truth about in the future? *Also he never brings it up as I suggested often - to check in with me. He refuses to ever discuss the reasons why he did it. I get an "I don't know". If I bring it up he is either silent or says I know everything and that it wasn't like that _blah blah blah_. All this makes me feel even worse and makes him look very suspicious. My gut tells me he may still be lying. I trust my gut - it was right all through this. 

I was hoodwinked and fell for it, 3 or 4 times in fact. 'Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me'. I must be a fool. 

I do not feel secure in the relationship at this time. 

Maybe it's a process and I just can't 'switch on' being content and feeling secure. Maybe he is telling me the truth and will do so in the future. I continue to wrestle with it. 

I am sorry to threadjack Philat. I have a tendency to prattle and I seem to have dragged my thread over to yours! 



Philat said:


> Moon, FWIW things changed for me and started moving in the right direction after I showed my W my first thread. She started to understand where I was coming from--before that she had been in complete denial and blame-shift.


I may take your advice and show him my thread, and this post!

Your calm and considered posts and your continued presence on here holds great value for us posters on TAM IMO, most certainly for me. 

And I do hope your 87-year-old mother is doing fine.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

russell28 said:


> I want him to do it, the right way. With honesty, not candy coating and more deception... I realized when I saw a post by a banned user that this was an old thread. I wonder if Philat ever got the whole story, or if he's still being TT'd..
> 
> He may not be asking for help, but I'm offering it up anyway. Because he might not want it, doesn't invalidate it my thoughts and opinions.
> 
> ...


How does one tell one has 100%? Wives, even wandering wives, are human beings. One cannot beat them (literally or figuratively) day after day without expecting them to break. And once they break it is all over.

At some point one has to decide one has enough. Philat has enough. Let it be enough. Philat is not some newbie here. He's read many many threads and knows the ropes as well as we do. We are all rooting for him. I'd just drop criticism and "suggestions".


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Thank you, **********. You are very kind and I wish you the best. And Mom is fine, thank you--cranky as always.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

russell28 said:


> If you want to put on those distorted glasses, where it's okay to continue to be lied to, even after finding out.. where it's cool to be disrespected, because 'people have jobs and can cheat if they want to'... then I guess it's not so bad.
> 
> You can't do anything about something you don't know about.. but once you know about something, you sure can do something about it.
> 
> ...


I'd not have written that the way you did. Larry was pointing out that you can NEVER have 100% certainty. NEVER. Wanting it is a fool's dream. Or perhaps you know that and keep demanding it because you honestly feel that there should never by any reconciliation. That's a valid viewpoint but if it is yours, it is better stated plainly.

To go off on what might seem to be a tangent, why do you think a WS stays around? Some say it is for cake eating, and that's possible. But facing a lifetime of secret trysts, covering one's tracks, and so on, seems to me to be a difficult life. Much easier to simply divorce the BS, right? But they don't often want to do that? Why is that?

Is it possible that they seriously want to stay with their husbands?


----------



## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

double post


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> At some point one has to decide one has enough. Philat has enough. Let it be enough. Philat is not some newbie here. He's read many many threads and knows the ropes as well as we do. We are all rooting for him. I'd just drop criticism and "suggestions".


Thank you, Sidney. I'd just say that I do not take challenging posts as criticism literally, but as just that--challenges. It was being challenged like this in the first place that led me to get off the dime and force the issue with my W last year.


----------



## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Philat said:


> Thank you, **********. You are very kind and I wish you the best. And Mom is fine, thank you--cranky as always.


Brother...LOL...you don't know cranky. I would trade places with you in a nanosecond when it comes to this.

Glad she's okay though.


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Philat said:


> Thank you, **********. You are very kind and I wish you the best. And Mom is fine, thank you--cranky as always.


  
My Ws's amazing 91-year-old grandma snapped back when he asked her how she was when we last saw her,

"How do you think I am. I'm 91, everything hurts!" :rofl:

She's a bit cranky too.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> I'd not have written that the way you did. Larry was pointing out that you can NEVER have 100% certainty. NEVER. Wanting it is a fool's dream. Or perhaps you know that and keep demanding it because you honestly feel that there should never by any reconciliation. That's a valid viewpoint but if it is yours, it is better stated plainly.
> 
> To go off on what might seem to be a tangent, why do you think a WS stays around? Some say it is for cake eating, and that's possible. But facing a lifetime of secret trysts, covering one's tracks, and so on, seems to me to be a difficult life. Much easier to simply divorce the BS, right? But they don't often want to do that? Why is that?
> 
> Is it possible that they seriously want to stay with their husbands?


I feel honesty is the best for a successful R.. I don't think that's much to ask for after discovery of the trysts, covering ones tracks etc.. if the WS wants to stay with their husband. It's not a complicated formula, but obviously one that's not shared here. In many cases, the WS stays because it's easier than D even though they've checked out of the M already. Don't want to lose the comfort and stability of a home life, and the affair is exciting and an escape, why would you ruin that? They don't want the AP to pay the bills, just to give them hot sex tell them they're pretty and leave... The husband is there to pay the bills so they can buy nice things for the AP. When they start being honest with themselves, then they can be honest with the BS and stop the BS....

It wasn't just a kiss...


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

russell28 said:


> I feel honesty is the best for a successful R.. I don't think that's much to ask for after discovery of the trysts, covering ones tracks etc.. if the WS wants to stay with their husband. It's not a complicated formula, but obviously one that's not shared here. In many cases, the WS stays because it's easier than D even though they've checked out of the M already. Don't want to lose the comfort and stability of a home life, and the affair is exciting and an escape, why would you ruin that? They don't want the AP to pay the bills, just to give them hot sex tell them they're pretty and leave... The husband is there to pay the bills so they can buy nice things for the AP. When they start being honest with themselves, then they can be honest with the BS and stop the BS....
> 
> It wasn't just a kiss...


Honesty is the best policy, but much of the time it is hard to verify what you are being told. Folks here DO want honesty. They just appreciate the difficulty of getting it.

So what is one to do. One has a situation in which one fears that X (whatever that is) actually occurred. One's spouse won't admit it. They admit that they had lunch together and went to the AP's house and they smooched, but NOTHING PHYSICAL happened.

You'd not believe that, nor would I.

But what if you say that and your spouse comes back with: "I should have fvcked his brains out since you think I did anyway. Shows what happens when I do the right thing and did not have sxx."

You see, this is endless. The spouse sticks to the story, you and I stick to our doubts, and there is no way to resolve the story at all.

Sure, you can then go ahead and divorce. I could put it aside and reconcile. Is that really the right ending for us?


----------

