# Men, will you help me figure this one out?



## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

I'm sorry if I'm posting in the wrong place, I'm new here, but I just wanted a man's POV on this. 

H has been emotionally abusive to me for a while now and had a bad lying problem, so we went to marriage counseling. It has been helping some but I just couldn't take his emotional abuse so I left. One of the things he told me was "You can have a guilt free pass because I trust you. Just come back as the woman I loved." Well, I wasn't strong enough to go through with it. I called him back three hours later and called it off. We were fine and went to marriage counseling and things seemed better. He agreed to work on things and said he hadn't lied in a while. Well, that night he started getting emotionally abusive and I told him that I wasn't going to put up with it. He apologized that night and the next morning.

When he came home from work, he was like "if you're unhappy, we can separate." Then he told me his grievances with me, which was that I was too sensitive, I didn't clean enough, that *I'm* mentally abusive, and that I'm only with him for his money (he's talking about him being the only one who works). I told him the reason I didn't clean as much is because I take care of our 10 month old daughter, and that I could not agree to change the last two since they are false. He said "Okay then we can't work things out" and we separated. *THEN* he told me I could date other men if I wanted. He said he wouldn't be dating, just working.

A few hours after I left, I began feeling guilty about the things he said. So I called him and apologized for not cleaning enough, I said that I would leave the house spotless everyday and I was wrong for not doing it before. Then I tried to make a long stretch and apologize for one thing I had done that may have been construed as mental abuse. It was a long stretch though. Then I said it was my fault for making him think I was only with him for his money and I would work on it.

We worked things out and got back together. We talked about still going on a date that week. He said we should go as platonic friends. I was like, "What do you mean, JUST friends?" And he's like "No! No! You took that the wrong way. We can be lovey dovey & stuff, just no bull crap brought into the mix." Then later that night I texted him and said I got the vibe that he didn't want to be with me anymore. He said all the "oh no baby of course I want you, i love you". Then i asked why he had said I could date other men. He was like "Because I just want you happy."

Even this morning though, he called me first thing in the morning and said, "So, since we're going to the carnival as friends, how are you going to pay your way?" (jokingly). I was like "What do you mean as friends?" and he said I took that the wrong way again.

I'm just having a hard time figuring this out. If he loves me, why would he say i could date other men and say all those things about me, then say we should go to the carnival as friends? I would think he wants to date other women if it weren't for him taking me back with joy and being lovey dovey and wanting to have sex as soon as I got home.

I'm so confused.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

I'd say he was playing a game at trying to get your approval for him to sleep with other women...he already has passively been hinting/joking at allowing you to play the field...and now wants to set things up for extramarital activities (pretending to not be married at social events). He is trying to wear you down with saying one thing...then backing off and making you feel like you are nuts.

His critiques about your performance as a wife is a manipulative attempt to devalue your self-worth enough that you may be willing to let him screw other women so he won't leave you. That's how I read it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree with FormerSelf. 

This way you have not right to object to him seeing others. It's a pretty nasty game.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

Hmm, that's what I thought. But how do I figure it out for sure? Ask him if he would like to sleep with other people?

I'm pretty sure he's still lying to me, btw.


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## long_done (Jun 5, 2014)

He needs to grow up, maybe you too a little. You guys need to figure out how to deal with each other in an honest, none-hurtful manner.

If that can't be done, or one party is unwilling, it's time to consider a divorce.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

long_done said:


> He needs to grow up, maybe you too a little. You guys need to figure out how to deal with each other in an honest, none-hurtful manner.
> 
> If that can't be done, or one party is unwilling, it's time to consider a divorce.


I need to grow up? Sorry, I don't really understand. Also, it's hard to deal with someone in an honest manner when they have known to lie to you several times. I can't count on him to tell me the truth, so I thought I would ask the men here so I would have a better idea of what's going on here.


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## Sunburn (Jul 9, 2012)

Wow, that guy has a Masters in Manipulation. Personally I don't think it could ever get better between you two. Even if you separated and he had some intense counseling, he would still see you subconsciously, as he has, as easy prey. Either you need to develop skills to recognize his BS instantly and call him on it or go your own way.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

Thank you, Sunburn. We will see what we can accomplish in marriage counseling.


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## long_done (Jun 5, 2014)

ariel_angel77 said:


> I need to grow up? Sorry, I don't really understand. Also, it's hard to deal with someone in an honest manner when they have known to lie to you several times. I can't count on him to tell me the truth, so I thought I would ask the men here so I would have a better idea of what's going on here.


Sorry if my post came through wrong. What I meant by growing up is to stop playing games with him.

When he does something bad or leaves, do not engage him. Don't even think about him. Let him come to the conclusion that he is wrong. 

Read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and learn it. You are trying to be too nice, you need to put your own needs higher. Do not get sucked into games with an immature person.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

" few hours after I left, I began feeling guilty about the things he said. So I called him and apologized for not cleaning enough, I said that I would leave the house spotless everyday and I was wrong for not doing it before. Then I tried to make a long stretch and apologize for one thing I had done that may have been construed as mental abuse. It was a long stretch though. Then I said it was my fault for making him think I was only with him for his money and I would work on it."

Never ever do this again :nono: you need to work on yourself, you are helping him manipulate you. Might as well say "Here honey, please use this against me"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

What would be an appropriate response to something like that, then?
I am a nice person and I have a hard time finding the line between being good to someone and being stepped on.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ariel_angel77 said:


> What would be an appropriate response to something like that, then?
> I am a nice person and I have a hard time finding the line between being good to someone and being stepped on.


There are a lot of "that" being discussed here. Which "that" do you want a response for?


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> There are a lot of "that" being discussed here. Which "that" do you want a response for?


What should my response have been when he told me I didn't clean enough, I'm too sensitive, I'm mentally abusive, and I am only after his money?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ariel_angel77 said:


> What should my response have been when he told me I didn't clean enough, I'm too sensitive, I'm mentally abusive, and I am only after his money?


You said that those things were not true. Do not try to explain, apologize and defend yourself when you are falsely accused.

Throwing things like that at you is a smoke screen your husband uses so that he can get away with his nonsense.

The way it works is that you are upset because he lied, etc. So he throws false accusations at you. Now you are so darn busy crying, carrying on, trying to prove that he's wrong, and apologizing fro the thing that you never that you stop focusing on the real problem.. his behavior. And when you stop focusing on the real problems.. .he can now go do anything he wants...

And you are still too busy beating yourself up.

I'm sorry to say but you are way to easy for him to manipulate. 

When start in on you, just look at him and say something like: "Wow that's quite a smoke screen. What does it have to do with you lying, cheating, etc?"

Stop talking to him about this stuff. Just put it back on him.

Better yet. Stop talking to him at all. Just get a divorce.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

Also, a couple of months ago, he made a fake Facebook to look at naked/sexual pics of women. Since we are trying to turn a new leaf, he told me I could look at his computer history. I did while he was asleep the other night and there was a TON of history missing, so much so that shortly after I started looking, I scrolled down to a couple of months ago with the pages where he had searched for naked women.

Except, in the midst of "big boobs" and "sexy women" was the name of his ex that had been searched. I got the impression that he got off by looking at pics of his ex. I asked him about it and he said no, that he did not look at her in that way, he was just trying to look her up. The computer lists the times that he looked up those things, and looking her up is 2 mins between (and smack dab in the middle of) the other stuff. I said, "So, you got 'it' down for 2 minutes to look her up randomly, then back up again to back to what you were doing?" and he was like "no, but I didn't look at her in that way, I swear on everything."

Is he still lying to me? Before, when I caught him in lies, he lied for a long time before I completely caught him and he had no way to deny it. He has never come clean about anything before.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Stop this. You know he's lying. Why do you constantly second guess yourself.

Are you in counseling? I think you need to be. 

And you need to stop talking to him. He's trying to set you up so that he can cheat and then blame you. do you really need any other reason for ending all contact with him?


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Are you in counseling? I think you need to be.


Yes, we are in marriage counseling. We have been about 5 sessions. My counselor thinks he is improving and told me he is improving faster than many others she's seen. Which is why it's so confusing.



EleGirl said:


> And you need to stop talking to him. He's trying to set you up so that he can cheat and then blame you. do you really need any other reason for ending all contact with him?


When you say he's trying to set me up, are you referring to the things he said about me being mentally abusive, using him for his money, etc.?

You guys, like, at all other times he is the sweetest and acts the most in love with me. That's why it's so confusing when the few things like this happen. I mean, he acts really, really into me most of the time. Now that we are back together, he even talks about beating up other guys that try to get with me.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

ariel_angel77 said:


> What should my response have been when he told me I didn't clean enough, I'm too sensitive, I'm mentally abusive, and I am only after his money?



When people do this, they are judging you. Yet, the only person who can judge your actions is you. 

A simple "hmmm, I can see that you think I don't clean enough", can be incredibly disarming. It's called FOGGING. It addresses what he said, but doesn't defend or explain. It just answers manipulation by FOGGING him back. 

The book "when I say no I feel guilty" explains this very well.


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## long_done (Jun 5, 2014)

ariel_angel77 said:


> What would be an appropriate response to something like that, then?
> I am a nice person and I have a hard time finding the line between being good to someone and being stepped on.


The appropriate response is not to respond. Think of yourself as the most desirable person / partner to have, with very high self-esteem and the ability to get any partner you want.

What would that person act like? That person would not put up with the crap he put out. That person would tell the person to shape up or ship out, not cater in to his immature demands.

You need to draw the line for him, set boundaries. Do not allow him to walk all over you. If he senses he can trample all over you, it's game over. If he senses that you are going to stand up for yourself, and leave the relationship if need be, he will know there is more at stake and respect you more.

By acting the way a highly desirable person would, you become highly desirable. Work on yourself, and better yourself, be prepared to forget him if need be...your life will be better either way.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

ariel_angel77 said:


> Yes, we are in marriage counseling. We have been about 5 sessions. My counselor thinks he is improving and told me he is improving faster than many others she's seen. Which is why it's so confusing.


My ex was much like your husband. She lied so often and so well I'm not sure even she knew where the truth stopped and the lie started. I think that was part of how she was so successful at it...she believed her own lies. 

When our marriage was breaking down I did get her to attend one session with a counsellor...hoping it would lead to marriage counselling. She convinced the counsellor there was nothing going on between her and the ex boyfriend whom she had reconnected with online. 

...less than a month after I moved out of the house he moved in.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

MaritimeGuy said:


> My ex was much like your husband. She lied so often and so well I'm not sure even she knew where the truth stopped and the lie started. I think that was part of how she was so successful at it...she believed her own lies.
> 
> When our marriage was breaking down I did get her to attend one session with a counsellor...hoping it would lead to marriage counselling. She convinced the counsellor there was nothing going on between her and the ex boyfriend whom she had reconnected with online.
> 
> ...less than a month after I moved out of the house he moved in.


Can you now ID someone who is heavily invested in their lies?


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Can you now ID someone who is heavily invested in their lies?


Usually I'm pretty adept at it. With her when we first met I saw her lie to others however I naively thought she wouldn't do that to me. I kind of thought it was cute at the time. Duh! 

She completely slipped past my radar for a long time. She has a way of mixing truth with lies, telling you what you want to hear and not committing herself on points that are verifiable. With her it's a constant game of trying to read between the lines and following up on anything that is the least bit vague. You basically start out assuming nothing she says is true and go from there. She will lie even when there is really not anything to be gained from it. It's tiresome but as we have two kids together I continue to have to deal with it. 

When people refer to "trickle truth" on the forum here I sometimes think she invented it.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

ariel_angel77 said:


> *Is he still lying to me? *Before, when I caught him in lies, he lied for a long time before I completely caught him and he had no way to deny it. He has never come clean about anything before.


Not a guy, but I am responding anyway. 

OF COURSE he is lying to you! He is cheating on you too! Have no doubt about that, hence that whole, you can date other men song and dance! Havent you had enough of this sh!tty treatment yet?? He just pretends to work on things to keep you hanging on, keeps tossing you crumbs.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

3Xnocharm said:


> Not a guy, but I am responding anyway.
> 
> OF COURSE he is lying to you! He is cheating on you too! Have no doubt about that, hence that whole, you can date other men song and dance! Havent you had enough of this sh!tty treatment yet?? He just pretends to work on things to keep you hanging on, keeps tossing you crumbs.


It's okay, I appreciate all responses 

I guess he seems SO into me and is lovey dovey and stuff, so I always assumed he isn't cheating. Also with him working so much then coming home.

These last two days that he has been off have been miserable for me, though. I don't feel happy when I'm with him. I'm such a chipper person, and he's negative and kills my happy mood from that (hence me being depressed/having suicidal thoughts-NOT ANYMORE-for the first time in my life while married to him). He refuses to ever visit my family, it's like a chore to him, when I see his family all the time. Well yesterday and today were spent with my family since my mom had surgery and needs help. He has behaved AWFUL. He has complained the whole time and spent most of his time outside working on the speaker of our jeep. He says he just wants to go home. He shows no interest in my family whatsoever. He says it's because "he just likes being alone" and "he doesn't feel comfortable anywhere except home or around big crowds". I was miserable the entire time and have much more fun with my family whenever he isn't with me.

I sometimes feel very miserable and depressed being with him. I feel like I've outgrown him. I feel upset and jealous when I see anything having to do with love or people being in love. I always imagined my final amazing love story where I finally get married to the love of my life and my life is amazing with him through the trials and happy times...it's not reality for me. I think often of my life in the future and I feel happiest when I think of it without him and with someone who loves me and respects me and that I am in love with deeply. The thing I feel most is feeling that there has to be more than this.

And then I think that marriage is supposed to be for life and I promised myself to God and him that I would stick it out through thick and thin and that these feelings are just temporary after going through a bad time.

I don't know which train of thought to believe.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

ariel_angel77 said:


> It's okay, I appreciate all responses
> 
> I guess he seems SO into me and is lovey dovey and stuff, so I always assumed he isn't cheating. Also with him working so much then coming home.
> 
> ...


Marriage is supposed to be for life, but not like a prison sentence. Your H is verbally and emotionally abusive. That paragraph I bolded above, THAT is where you are really at, your true feelings. You are just in the guilt stage right now about wanting to end your marriage. I am pretty sure that ALL of us who have come to that decision have been through guilt. You have put in a lot of effort with him to try and make it work, but this is who he is, and you know that you cannot deal with this for another 20-30 years or more. Its just a matter of you coming to acceptance with it.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

FormerSelf said:


> I'd say he was playing a game at trying to get your approval for him to sleep with other women...he already has passively been hinting/joking at allowing you to play the field...and now wants to set things up for extramarital activities (pretending to not be married at social events). He is trying to wear you down with saying one thing...then backing off and making you feel like you are nuts.
> 
> His critiques about your performance as a wife is a manipulative attempt to devalue your self-worth enough that you may be willing to let him screw other women so he won't leave you. That's how I read it.


Gaslighting and passive aggressive. Added into the lying and I think you have a cake eater on your hands.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

MaritimeGuy said:


> With her when we first met I saw her lie to others however I naively thought she wouldn't do that to me.


I thought of this today in a conversation with H. We were talking about lying, and I said, "You stopped though, right?" He said no, that he lies to everyone except me. I was like, "You think that's okay?" He was like, "Why would it not be?" I explained that it breaks trust and respect, and he said he doesn't care what other people think about him. I mentioned the bible and how it says not to bear false witness and he said, "How is bearing false witness lying?" Then he went on to say that lying is justifiable. I said I was disappointed and he said "Everything I do is just disappointing to you isn't it!" (I have not made but one other comment that something he did disappointed me..)

I think something is wrong with him in the head.

In fact, he is totally ONE HUNDRED percent different than the person I married (completely devout Christian with amazing morals and always thinking of others). It was as if when we dated he put up a lie. Do I have the right to not be with him if when we were dating it was all a lie? The person he really is, I can't stand and despise and do not want to be with someone like that.

With some of the comments he makes, sometimes I'm scared to even be around him.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

3Xnocharm said:


> Marriage is supposed to be for life, but not like a prison sentence. Your H is verbally and emotionally abusive. That paragraph I bolded above, THAT is where you are really at, your true feelings. You are just in the guilt stage right now about wanting to end your marriage. I am pretty sure that ALL of us who have come to that decision have been through guilt. You have put in a lot of effort with him to try and make it work, but this is who he is, and you know that you cannot deal with this for another 20-30 years or more. Its just a matter of you coming to acceptance with it.


You're right. It does feel like a prison sentence. But the guilt IS overwhelming. I want to be able to keep my vow to him and God. I don't want my 10 month old to be a child of divorce like I was. It pains me greatly to think of her family being apart, like more than words can describe.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

Fenix said:


> Gaslighting and passive aggressive. Added into the lying and I think you have a cake eater on your hands.


What is gaslighting and what is a cake eater? Sorry never heard of these terms lol :scratchhead:


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

ariel_angel77 said:


> In fact, he is totally ONE HUNDRED percent different than the person I married (completely devout Christian with amazing morals and always thinking of others). It was as if when we dated he put up a lie. Do I have the right to not be with him if when we were dating it was all a lie? The person he really is, I can't stand and despise and do not want to be with someone like that.


The same exact thing happened to me with my second husband. The man I ended up with was NOT the man I fell in love with and married. To this day, I am still not sure what the hell happened. And being with a liar is exhausting.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

ariel_angel77 said:


> You're right. It does feel like a prison sentence. But the guilt IS overwhelming. I want to be able to keep my vow to him and God. I don't want my 10 month old to be a child of divorce like I was. It pains me greatly to think of her family being apart, like more than words can describe.


She is so young she will never know things were any other way. Better to not grow up in a household where her mother is treated like crap. As she gets older, she will see the dynamics in your home, and she will think that THIS is how relationships work. Do you want her to grow up to marry someone who treats her the way your husband treats you? Because she will. Plus once she is older, your husband will do the same to her.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

He's abusive. I don't know why you really think the men at TAM would 'get this'. Not all men are like that. This is a personality thing, not a gender thing.

Your H is playing you. He's yanking your chain every which way because he fears loss of control of his life in general. He wants 100% security in life, which is unattainable for anyone. But he gets reassurance through control over your actions and emotions. 

This doesn't mean it's right! 

He's just changing his tactics to reflect the new situation. That's all. Life deals a hand, he plays the cards according to his usual m.o. and goal.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

You know what, I think you're all right. He has always lied to me, is lying to me now, and will lie to me in the future. There is no relationship or hope there. He is probably cheating as well. DD does NOT deserve to be treated this way by him in the future or to witness this kind of marriage. It's just not going to work with how he treats me and with no trust. I think I'm coming to terms with that.

Since H is my sole provider financially, I am going to get a job to save up some money (2-3 months worth), then leave him. I have an apartment provided for me through my college but I have other bills as well. I am going to use this time of saving up money to make SURE that this is what I want, and to see if marriage counseling starts to work any.

Or, I could leave now and stay with my mom. I'm not sure what I'd do with myself financially, though.

What do you guys think?


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

Oh, btw, another thing I didn't mention...

He tells me that since my dad is absent, that he needs to be a father to me as well. He says I need to obey him, because it says so in the bible for wives to obey their husband. The other night I was talking to a guy and he wanted to have sex with me, I said no but continued talking to him, when I ended up telling H and showing him the conversation, he took away my phone and said I can't have it back until I learn some responsibility and stop acting like a child. He also tells me some nights that he wants me to go to bed at a certain time. He will repeat the command until I do it.

I don't know why I didn't mention that part before.


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## Sunburn (Jul 9, 2012)

ariel_angel77 said:


> Oh, btw, another thing I didn't mention...
> 
> He tells me that since my dad is absent, that he needs to be a father to me as well. He says I need to obey him, because it says so in the bible for wives to obey their husband..


Tell him you'll not be fixing him lobster anymore cause the Bible says you're not supposed to eat shellfish.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

ariel_angel77 said:


> Oh, btw, another thing I didn't mention...
> 
> He tells me that since my dad is absent, that he needs to be a father to me as well. He says I need to obey him, because it says so in the bible for wives to obey their husband. The other night I was talking to a guy and he wanted to have sex with me, I said no but continued talking to him, when I ended up telling H and showing him the conversation, he took away my phone and said I can't have it back until I learn some responsibility and stop acting like a child. He also tells me some nights that he wants me to go to bed at a certain time. He will repeat the command until I do it.
> 
> I don't know why I didn't mention that part before.


Oh, barf.

If you get along well with your mother and feel comfortable in her space, I would leave immediately. Get the job and start saving, continue school. With a 10 month old daughter, I am guessing you are quite young. You have a lot of living to do yet!


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

ariel_angel77 said:


> What is gaslighting and what is a cake eater? Sorry never heard of these terms lol :scratchhead:


Just saw this. Gaslighting refers to an old movie where a wife was made to believe she was crazy by her husband's manipulation of stimuli (ie lights flickering etc). It is a term that is used to identify when someone lies to us repeatedly, making us doubt our own senses/gut feel/intuition. My X was a pro at it.

A cake eater is a serial cheater who wants their spouse but also wants to screw whomever on the side. They often gaslight to maintain their facade.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

ariel_angel77 said:


> You know what, I think you're all right. He has always lied to me, is lying to me now, and will lie to me in the future. There is no relationship or hope there. He is probably cheating as well. DD does NOT deserve to be treated this way by him in the future or to witness this kind of marriage. It's just not going to work with how he treats me and with no trust. I think I'm coming to terms with that.
> 
> Since H is my sole provider financially, I am going to get a job to save up some money (2-3 months worth), then leave him. I have an apartment provided for me through my college but I have other bills as well. I am going to use this time of saving up money to make SURE that this is what I want, and to see if marriage counseling starts to work any.
> 
> ...


Don't you have access to any of the money in checking or savings? Yes get a job, but take the money you need to get started out of joint assets. And yes, staying in a rent free place for the time being (i.e. Mom) would be a good idea, so long as Mom is supportive. This saving up money thing is just your brain's way of getting you to avoid reality?


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

ariel_angel77 said:


> Oh, btw, another thing I didn't mention...
> 
> He tells me that since my dad is absent, that he needs to be a father to me as well. He says I need to obey him, because it says so in the bible for wives to obey their husband. The other night I was talking to a guy and he wanted to have sex with me, I said no but continued talking to him, when I ended up telling H and showing him the conversation, he took away my phone and said I can't have it back until I learn some responsibility and stop acting like a child. He also tells me some nights that he wants me to go to bed at a certain time. He will repeat the command until I do it.
> 
> I don't know why I didn't mention that part before.


If this is for real, you need to just leave.
No phone means no call for help.
It has nothing to do with him looking out for you.
You know very well once he takes your phone you are at his mercy, you cannot call for help if you needed to.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

ariel_angel77 said:


> Oh, btw, another thing I didn't mention...
> 
> He tells me that since my dad is absent, that he needs to be a father to me as well. He says I need to obey him, because it says so in the bible for wives to obey their husband. The other night I was talking to a guy and he wanted to have sex with me, I said no but continued talking to him, when I ended up telling H and showing him the conversation, he took away my phone and said I can't have it back until I learn some responsibility and stop acting like a child. He also tells me some nights that he wants me to go to bed at a certain time. He will repeat the command until I do it.
> 
> I don't know why I didn't mention that part before.


Oh HELL no. Go stay with mom.


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

This is crazy and no environment to raise a child in.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

He is responsible for supporting his child financially. Well you're well served to start working to support yourself financially you don't have to take on the full financial burden of your child on your own.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

Yeah, after thinking about it, you guys are right. I'll stay with my mom. I shouldn't stay and continue to be subjected to this abuse, nor should my daughter be around it. I really was starting to think that it was right of him to take my phone away from me for that and that he was right for telling me when to go to bed...thanks for the reality check, guys.

I'm going to tell him and the marriage counselor at counseling today, so that there will be a mediator there. I am honestly afraid to tell him in any other environment. I haven't told the counselor some of these behaviors and I think she didn't know he was still doing the lying.

Wish me luck today.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

ariel_angel77 said:


> Yeah, after thinking about it, you guys are right. I'll stay with my mom. I shouldn't stay and continue to be subjected to this abuse, nor should my daughter be around it. I really was starting to think that it was right of him to take my phone away from me for that and that he was right for telling me when to go to bed...thanks for the reality check, guys.
> 
> I'm going to tell him and the marriage counselor at counseling today, so that there will be a mediator there. I am honestly afraid to tell him in any other environment. I haven't told the counselor some of these behaviors and I think she didn't know he was still doing the lying.
> 
> Wish me luck today.


Good luck, angel. Call your mom now and let her know what is up. You will need the moral and physical support, esp if the counselor and your h double teams you.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

Well, I told the counselor about everything here.

She doesn't think he's all that bad. In fact, she said that we are far from hopeless. She did tell him that he can't be a father figure to me and that lying is wrong, etc. But she thinks that when he tries to hurt me, it is just a reactive part of him that can be fixed. But she just didn't think that he was that bad, and not close enough for me to leave. She doesn't think he's seeing anyone else or anything like that. Just that he has a "reactive part" of him that is trying to defend himself.

She wants us to go on two dates, to turn towards each other instead of turning away, do a nice thing for each other every day, and to avoid talking about any hot button issues until we return to her office.

I'm not sure what to think at this point. Of course, he has been perfect and apologetic since we left the counselor's office.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

ariel_angel77 said:


> Well, I told the counselor about everything here.
> 
> She doesn't think he's all that bad. In fact, she said that we are far from hopeless. She did tell him that he can't be a father figure to me and that lying is wrong, etc. But she thinks that when he tries to hurt me, it is just a reactive part of him that can be fixed. But she just didn't think that he was that bad, and not close enough for me to leave. She doesn't think he's seeing anyone else or anything like that. Just that he has a "reactive part" of him that is trying to defend himself.
> 
> ...


is she coming from a Christian viewpoint?


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## funnybunny29 (Apr 1, 2014)

I think you need to go live with your mom and start individual counseling. Good luck! I hope everything works out for you. I know how difficult is to be married to a liar so I feel for you.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

FormerSelf said:


> I'd say he was playing a game at trying to get your approval for him to sleep with other women...he already has passively been hinting/joking at allowing you to play the field...and now wants to set things up for extramarital activities (pretending to not be married at social events). He is trying to wear you down with saying one thing...then backing off and making you feel like you are nuts.
> 
> His critiques about your performance as a wife is a manipulative attempt to devalue your self-worth enough that you may be willing to let him screw other women so he won't leave you. That's how I read it.


I think Formerself hit the nail on the head...:iagree:


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

Fenix said:


> is she coming from a Christian viewpoint?


Yes, how did you know?


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

The counselor's method seems to align with The Love Dare


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

So you guys think my counselor is wrong?


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

ariel_angel77 said:


> H has been emotionally abusive to me for a while now and had a bad lying problem, so we went to marriage counseling. It has been helping some but I just couldn't take his emotional abuse so I left. One of the things he told me was "You can have a guilt free pass because I trust you. Just come back as the woman I loved." Well, I wasn't strong enough to go through with it. I called him back three hours later and called it off. We were fine and went to marriage counseling and things seemed better. He agreed to work on things and said he hadn't lied in a while. Well, that night he started getting emotionally abusive and I told him that I wasn't going to put up with it. He apologized that night and the next morning.
> 
> When he came home from work, he was like "if you're unhappy, we can separate." Then he told me his grievances with me, which was that I was too sensitive, I didn't clean enough, that *I'm* mentally abusive, and that I'm only with him for his money (he's talking about him being the only one who works). I told him the reason I didn't clean as much is because I take care of our 10 month old daughter, and that I could not agree to change the last two since they are false. He said "Okay then we can't work things out" and we separated. *THEN* he told me I could date other men if I wanted. He said he wouldn't be dating, just working.
> 
> ...


Quoted just for context and as a reminder of the gaslighting and manipulation that is going on. The guy is very good at this. He is also incredibly passive aggressive, which is a toxic combination.


Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> He's abusive.
> 
> Your H is playing you. He's yanking your chain every which way because *he fears loss of control of his life* in general. He wants 100% security in life, which is unattainable for anyone. But he gets reassurance through control over your actions and emotions.
> 
> ...


HNU is correct.



ariel_angel77 said:


> You know what, I think you're all right. He has always lied to me, is lying to me now, and will lie to me in the future. There is no relationship or hope there. He is probably cheating as well. DD does NOT deserve to be treated this way by him in the future or to witness this kind of marriage.


Just a reminder.



ariel_angel77 said:


> Well, I told the counselor about everything here.
> 
> She doesn't think he's all that bad. In fact, she said that we are far from hopeless. She did tell him that he can't be a father figure to me and that lying is wrong, etc. But she thinks that when he *tries to hurt me*, it is *just a reactive part of him that can be fixed*. But she just didn't think that he was that bad, and not close enough for me to leave. She doesn't think he's seeing anyone else or anything like that. Just that he has a "reactive part" of him that is trying to defend himself.


 Reactive? Toward what? He is reacting to a loss of control and manipulating you to get what he wants. This is abusive. She is completely minimizing what he is doing, which in effect throws you under the bus. Anyone who tries to hurt you needs to be left. There is a huge difference between trying and unintended consequences. One is malicious and the other is thoughtless. Thoughtless can be worked with, malicious needs to be left. Fixed? That word just reeks of a Christian perspective. You do not fix people.



> She wants us to go on two dates, to turn towards each other instead of turning away, do a nice thing for each other every day, and to avoid talking about any hot button issues until we return to her office.


 Rug sweeping.
[/QUOTE]



ariel_angel77 said:


> Yes, how did you know?


Your H is a liar, a manipulator and a user. If he isn't a cheater, he will be...and that urge was probably the driver behind your original post. He is looking for permission/absolution before the fact. I am pretty hardcore about nto being able to have a worthwhile relationship with a manipulating liar. You cannot trust him...how can you remain in a relationship with someone you cannot trust? I tried to do it for close to a decade (married a total of 25 years though) because I didn't have proof and I had two small children. It was a sham and I am just coming to grips now with that. 

Angel, what is your gut telling you? How old are you? Finally, can you please go get individual counseling? Please?! You are devaluing yourself in this relationship. You deserve better treatment...from yourself and from anyone you choose to be your significant other. Your daughter needs to see a mother who is strong enough to demand respect and honesty. At 10 months old, she will not be as impacted from seeing a father emotionally abuse and disrespect his wife. At 15 years of age, she will take that into herself and repeat the cycle. Do you want that?


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

Fenix said:


> Reactive? Toward what? He is reacting to a loss of control and manipulating you to get what he wants. This is abusive. She is completely minimizing what he is doing, which in effect throws you under the bus. Anyone who tries to hurt you needs to be left. There is a huge difference between trying and unintended consequences. One is malicious and the other is thoughtless. Thoughtless can be worked with, malicious needs to be left. Fixed? That word just reeks of a Christian perspective. You do not fix people.
> 
> Your H is a liar, a manipulator and a user. If he isn't a cheater, he will be...and that urge was probably the driver behind your original post. He is looking for permission/absolution before the fact. I am pretty hardcore about nto being able to have a worthwhile relationship with a manipulating liar. You cannot trust him...how can you remain in a relationship with someone you cannot trust? I tried to do it for close to a decade (married a total of 25 years though) because I didn't have proof and I had two small children. It was a sham and I am just coming to grips now with that.
> 
> Angel, what is your gut telling you? How old are you? Finally, can you please go get individual counseling? Please?! You are devaluing yourself in this relationship. You deserve better treatment...from yourself and from anyone you choose to be your significant other. Your daughter needs to see a mother who is strong enough to demand respect and honesty. At 10 months old, she will not be as impacted from seeing a father emotionally abuse and disrespect his wife. At 15 years of age, she will take that into herself and repeat the cycle. Do you want that?


I am 20 years old. Sorry I didn't mention that before. He is 21. We were 19 when we married.

I am able to get individual counseling through my school, but I thought you could only have one counselor at a time? 

You're right about all the things you said. Thank you so much for taking the time to write that.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Omigod, you are 4 years older than my daughter. I just want to reach through the screen and give you a hug. Have you told your mother all of this? Is she supportive or is she in agreement with the therapist?

This is really hard stuff for a 40 year old to deal with let alone someone with less life experience. One of my motivators is my daughter. I want to live a life that she can respect. I must model the behavior and choices that I would want my daughter to have/take.

Your husband is really young and he is acting like a child. At 21, I can understand that. Still, married with a baby, he does not have that luxury.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

Fenix said:


> Omigod, you are 4 years older than my daughter. I just want to reach through the screen and give you a hug. Have you told your mother all of this? Is she supportive or is she in agreement with the therapist?
> 
> This is really hard stuff for a 40 year old to deal with let alone someone with less life experience. One of my motivators is my daughter. I want to live a life that she can respect. I must model the behavior and choices that I would want my daughter to have/take.
> 
> Your husband is really young and he is acting like a child. At 21, I can understand that. Still, married with a baby, he does not have that luxury.


Thank you. Yes, I told my mother. She hopes he can change but is doubtful. Her main thing is that she doesn't want me to go through a divorce, ever. But, she says I can always stay with her. And that's a really good way to look at it, I'll consider in my decisions what I would want my daughter to do.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

ariel_angel77 said:


> So you guys think my counselor is wrong?



Yes.


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## BaxJanson (Apr 4, 2013)

MC is dangerous in regards to abusive situations. Standard MC approaches relationships as having equal power between the two of you, and the biggest problem is communication issues. However, he's communicating quite clearly - he's possessive, controlling, untrustworthy, skirt-chasing, and manipulative. And he's proud of it. The longer you stay with him, the worse your depression will get. (One of the most common phrases used to describe the feeling of being in an abusive relationship is 'It feels like my soul is dying') The fact that he feels comfortable enough to command you is extremely alarming. 

Run - and be super safe and paranoid.


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