# wife snapped on me



## knightRider

Some advice please:

1. On the weekend wife and I were talking about her previous job, she worked there before we were married. She mentioned that she dated a guy there, I asked her if she slept with him. She said no and then she flipped and told me to "fnck of" etc, saying that I was "putting pins" in our relationship. 

2. I heard a VAR conversation that she had with a male colleague a few weeks ago. They were alone. They talked about work, and wife mentioned that she "signs off" some issues without fully understanding them. Guy then takes the mickey out her and says he will tell others about it. He brings it up a few times. She then laughingly says, "I'd better be careful what I say to you".

3. The bloke then turned the conversation other things. He mentioned that there drinks that night and if my wife was going. She said no, she does not drink. Suddenly he starts talking about house prices. They talk about the cost of living in the UK and my wife mentions there are some women claiming boob jobs on the health service. They have a laugh about it.

4. They then talk about their childhood and my wife tells him things that I have never heard before.

Point 1: I have not spoken to her since she swore at me, that's 2 days now. I told her that I will not speak to her without an apology.

Point 2: Is this guy trying to hit on my wife? Was my wife flirting with him when she said, "I'd better be careful what I say to you"

Point 3: Not sure why my wife would talk about boob jobs with a male colleague. Is that flirting or am I miss reading it?

Point 4: I'm a bit concerned that my wife would tell this guy things about her childhood that I have not heard.

I'm not sure how to proceed really. Am I being too sensitive or are there flags here?


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## Holland

Point 5 - why are you listening in to your wifes conversations? That is just creepy and an invasion of privacy.


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## knightRider

Holland said:


> Point 5 - why are you listening in to your wifes conversations? That is just creepy and an invasion of privacy.


Previous red flags. Thanks for the constructive advice.


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## jld

I think he is just a friend.

Why not reach out to her and tell her you are sorry you demanded an apology? And that now you would really just like to understand why she felt angry enough to swear at you. 

You could also confess "varing" her, and that you wished she felt comfortable enough with you that she would tell you things from her childhood and not him. You could ask her how you could make her feel comfortable, how you could earn that kind of trust from her.


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## knightRider

thanks, jld. Why would I apologize for her swearing at me?


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## jld

knightRider said:


> thanks, jld. Why would I apologies for her swearing at me?


Because it created a power struggle, and power struggles cause distance, and distance prevents you from resolving conflict.

You are not apologizing for her swearing, btw. You are apologizing for demanding an apology. 

An apology, to be sincere, has to come from the other person's heart. It cannot be demanded, like an entitlement.


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## Holland

knightRider said:


> Previous red flags. Thanks for the constructive advice.


OK I get that this is an American thing but honestly it is creepy. So you have red flags but do you really think when she finds out you have been spying on her that she will EVER trust you?

What is hard to understand from an outsiders POV is why don't you just talk to her? Can tell you that if I ever found out my partner was spying on me it would be the absolute end of our relationship, it is a really dishonest and creepy act. Be an adult and have a conversation, if she won't return the conversation then your relationship is over anyway.


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## knightRider

Holland,

have to agree to differ on your view. I vared her as recommended by others on this forum. Sometimes it is needed to verify.


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## jld

Holland said:


> OK I get that this is an American thing but honestly it is creepy. So you have red flags but do you really think when she finds out you have been spying on her that she will EVER trust you?
> 
> What is hard to understand from an outsiders POV is why don't you just talk to her? Can tell you that if I ever found out my partner was spying on me it would be the absolute end of our relationship, it is a really dishonest and creepy act. Be an adult and have a conversation, if she won't return the conversation then your relationship is over anyway.


I agree with you, but I think he is British.

I am American, but I think the varing thing is creepy, too. I think most of that spying/snooping stuff advocated by many here is creepy.


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## knightRider

VARing is actually quite American


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## jld

knightRider said:


> VARing is actually quite American


We have a variety of views in America.


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## knightRider

jld said:


> We have a variety of views in America.


Glad to hear it and long may it continue :thumbup:


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## Omego

Knight rider,

I don't think you are being too sensitive, and yes she is flirting. The guy may be enjoying the attention as well. 

I haven't read your previous threads and have no opinion on the VARs. If you have that much distrust, however, and can't talk to her, maybe the relationship should end? She doesn't seem to see that possibility as a negative, based on your post.

The swearing incident is rude, but you've told her it's unacceptable so now it's time to let it go. You can't force someone to be polite if they're not, unfortunately.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Holland

knightRider said:


> Holland,
> 
> have to agree to differ on your view. I vared her as recommended by others on this forum. Sometimes it is needed to verify.


Verify what? Maybe she fells more comfortable talking to other people than you? So let's say it is as innocent as that then all you will have achieved is to make her feel less comfortable speaking with you.

Do your divorce laws require evidence of infidelity? If so VAR your heart out but if not then your relationship is over either way. If she has nothing to be guilty about she will hate you forever, if she is guilty then she already hates you.

OK I get it, agree to disagree but honestly this all sounds very immature and counter intuitive. There is an old and crude saying "either fix it or f.uck it off". Spying on your wife is a lose/lose hobby.


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## jld

knightRider said:


> Glad to hear it and long may it continue :thumbup:


Yep. It would be a boring country if we all thought the same way.


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## TAM2013

'Dated' means 'slept with' most of the time in womans talk, mate. She snapped because she's backed in to a corner and she came out bullying you.


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## kirst72

TAM2013 said:


> 'Dated' means 'slept with' most of the time in womans talk, mate. She snapped because she's backed in to a corner and she came out bullying you.


Yep and is making sure you don't ask again


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## Marc878

Alone with a male coworker? Never a good idea. Obviously no boundaries.


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## knightRider

Marc878 said:


> Alone with a male coworker? Never a good idea. Obviously no boundaries.


It was at work. The flirting is not right. Need to re evaluate the marriage.


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## ILoveSparkles

knightRider said:


> It was at work. The flirting is not right. Need to re evaluate the marriage.



How do you VAR her at work?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

TAM2013 said:


> 'Dated' means 'slept with' most of the time in womans talk, mate. She snapped because she's backed in to a corner and she came out bullying you.


Or she's annoyed that he's trying to start sh*t that doesn't matter and _he's _trying to bully her by invading her privacy and questioning her about her past.

She's not comfortable enough with him to share details from her childhood with. 
He's recording her personal conversations and analyzing them. 
He's questioning who she has slept with in the past, maybe she's shared little things before that gave him RJ and he couldn't handle it so she's refusing to get into it again.... 

This is not a healthy marriage, why would she want to share anything with him in the state that it is? So he can use it as more ammo against her? F*ck that. And yes, I used a swear word.


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## knightRider

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Or she's annoyed that he's trying to start sh*t that doesn't matter and _he's _trying to bully her by invading her privacy and questioning her about her past.
> 
> She's not comfortable enough with him to share details from her childhood with.
> He's recording her personal conversations and analyzing them.
> He's questioning who she has slept with in the past, maybe she's shared little things before that gave him RJ and he couldn't handle it so she's refusing to get into it again....
> 
> This is not a healthy marriage, why would she want to share anything with him in the state that it is? So he can use it as more ammo against her? F*ck that. And yes, I used a swear word.


Wow. Lots of assumptions about me here. You can check my old posts to see where I come from.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Some of the stuff is innocent, but the intimate talk from childhood is not good. Especially, if it contains things you've never heard. You said a specific male coworker. Has she had other conversations, with multiple people, containing private personal childhood discussion you've never heard before?



> Verify what? Maybe she fells more comfortable talking to other people than you? So let's say it is as innocent as that then all you will have achieved is to make her feel less comfortable speaking with you.


Moving goal posts.


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## knightRider

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Some of the stuff is innocent, but the intimate talk from childhood is not good. Especially, if it contains things you've never heard. You said a specific male coworker. Has she had other conversations, with multiple people, containing private personal childhood discussion you've never heard before?


Don't know. I've read a few psych books and they all say that personnel info should be shared with your partner first.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

knightRider said:


> Wow. Lots of assumptions about me here. You can check my old posts to see where I come from.


It doesn't really matter to me WHY you are invading her privacy and asking about her past and not making yourself a comfortable and safe person to open up with. 

If your marriage has gotten to the point where you are recording her at work, it's too unhealthy to fix anyway. Just leave.


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## lifeistooshort

I realize that a VAR is standard advice here on TAM but I will tell you that if my hb does that to me he better darn well find something because if I find out our marriage is in serious trouble if not over.

I would never look at him the same way again, so maybe if he feels the need he should just end our marriage now.

My private conversations are NONE of his business....I have the right to vent and have conversations with people just like he does.

You're justifying this because she had a laugh about women getting b00b jobs on the national health care system? That's something a lot of people might laugh about.

As far as details from her childhood, that tells me (as Holland has already pointed out) that she isn't comfortable sharing these details with you. Perhaps you should ask yourself why.....and start with the fact that you're spying on her.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

knightRider said:


> Don't know. I've read a few psych books and they all say that personnel info should be shared with your partner first.


But you have to make yourself the person she can talk to, trust and know that you won't judge her or criticize her or analyze her. 
If you aren't that person then she won't share with you first.


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## jld

knightRider said:


> Don't know. I've read a few psych books and they all say that personnel info should be shared with your partner first.


You understand you are not entitled to it, though, right? That she can *choose* with whom she shares her thoughts and feelings?


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## bandit.45

Holland said:


> Point 5 - why are you listening in to your wifes conversations? That is just creepy and an invasion of privacy.


No such thing as privacy in marriage. Sorry.


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## knightRider

Okay, as I started this thread, can you please not post on it if you're gonna have a pop at me over the VAR. Please read my old posts to see my position.


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## bandit.45

Holland said:


> OK *I get that this is an American thing but honestly it is creepy.* So you have red flags but do you really think when she finds out you have been spying on her that she will EVER trust you?
> 
> What is hard to understand from an outsiders POV is why don't you just talk to her? Can tell you that if I ever found out my partner was spying on me it would be the absolute end of our relationship, it is a really dishonest and creepy act. Be an adult and have a conversation, if she won't return the conversation then your relationship is over anyway.


An American thing? 

Have you ever been to London? Where the police have security cameras in the public restrooms? You are kidding right?


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## knightRider

jld said:


> You understand you are not entitled to it, though, right? That she can *choose* with whom she shares her thoughts and feelings?


I never said that I was. I was trying to build a strong marriage.


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## bandit.45

:rofl:Heh heh heh....

Bail Knight Rider. With jld and Lifeistiooshort on here...you've lost brother. :rofl:

Seriously though. Download and read _No More Mister Nice Guy_ and learn to be more self possessed and independent. 

Look brother, if she is going to cheat on you, there is not a damn thing you can do to prevent it. All you can do is very distinctly tell her what your boundaries are, and that if she crosses those boundaries, then you will do what you need to do to protect yourself and make the best decisions for you. 

Privacy? Bullsh!t. Privacy locking the bathroom door to take a crap. There are no secrets in a marriage. If she wants to live a secret life....then give it to her... in the form of a divorce petition. 

Married people who are devoted to each other* protect *and *defend* their relationship from outside influences. It doesn't mean they shut the world out, it means they establish agreed-upon boundaries and they stick with them. 

Your wife does not appear to have very good boundaries. She should not be talking to any man about intimate details of her childhood she has never shared with you. It doesn't matter whether she feels comfortable sharing those things with you or not... She should not be sharing such things with other men period.


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## jld

knightRider said:


> I never said that I was. I was trying to build a strong marriage.


Holland and life and I are showing you how.


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## phillybeffandswiss

knightRider said:


> Okay, as I started this thread, can you please not post on it if you're gonna have a pop at me over the VAR. Please read my old posts to see my position.


Meh..... You're going to have to deal with it. We are currently at an increased threat level with gender anger on TAM right now.

I don't recommend polygraphs or VARs anymore. You can become to obsessed checking which, skimming your older threads, sounds like where you are at. Honestly, I'd divorce. 

You've already admitted, in other threads, she has repeatedly broken agreed upon boundaries and the trust is gone. Leave.


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## knightRider

jld said:


> Holland and life and I are showing you how.


We talk regularly, read books together, try and spend time together. I will ask her about this other chap and see what see says. 

If I turned it the other way and said a male colleague was discussing things with a female and mentioned penis enlargement on the state, would that be flirting?


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## bandit.45

jld said:


> Holland and life and I are showing you how.


:rofl:

Yeah! By being a pushover! :rofl:


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

bandit.45 said:


> No such thing as privacy in marriage. Sorry.


Yes there is. Having your spouse share all their privacy with you is a privilege, not a right. You can get that privilege revoked if you are not a safe person to share with. 

Marrying someone does not entitle you to listen to their private conversations, read their private thoughts, see everything they do on the internet, etc. 

If you want sharing, be someone they can share with.


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## jld

knightRider said:


> *We talk regularly, read books together, try and spend time together. *I will ask her about this other chap and see what see says.
> 
> If I turned it the other way and said a male colleague was discussing things with a female and mentioned penis enlargement on the state, would that be flirting?


Very glad to hear you do those things, knight rider. Those are indeed marriage-building activities. 

How about the advice I recommended to you, like apologizing to her, and seeking to understand the root of her anger the other day?

No, I do not see flirting there. 

And SGC has excellent advice, too. Forgot to mention her earlier!


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## knightRider

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Yes there is. Having your spouse share all their privacy with you is a privilege, not a right. You can get that privilege revoked if you are not a safe person to share with.
> 
> Marrying someone does not entitle you to listen to their private conversations, read their private thoughts, see everything they do on the internet, etc.
> 
> If you want sharing, be someone they can share with.


as I started this thread, can you please not post on it if you're gonna have a pop at me over the VAR. Please read my old posts to see my position.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

KR- Do you show your wife all of your threads and everything you write here on TAM? 
How do you feel about YOU keeping these kinds of secrets and having these private conversations? Would you be ok with her reading it all because she's your wife and you aren't allowed to say or type a single word without her knowing what it is?

No privacy in marriage works both ways if that's how you see it. Show her and tell her everything, including the fact that you are recording her at work. No secrets, right?


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## knightRider

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> KR- Do you show your wife all of your threads and everything you write here on TAM?
> How do you feel about YOU keeping these kinds of secrets and having these private conversations? Would you be ok with her reading it all because she's your wife and you aren't allowed to say or type a single word without her knowing what it is?
> 
> No privacy in marriage works both ways if that's how you see it. Show her and tell her everything, including the fact that you are recording her at work. No secrets, right?


Yes but this is a forum of people that I will not have the chance to shag :surprise:
.


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## knobcreek

This seems like a premature VAR'ing, I would only use that if I was 99.999% sure she was cheating and all the signs were there and I just needed confirmation before I walked out the door and to a lawyers office, similar to hiring a PI. A VAR is a BIG step, and if caught and there's nothing going on you will likely do serious damage to your marriage if not end it. What you've got is a lot of nothing, it's just enough to piss you off, but you can't confront her with it so what's the point? Now you just get to stew over something and she'll never even know why you're angry.

You don't want to hear every conversation your wife has with her co-workers and friends, it will make you insane anyway.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Okay, I'm all caught up.

Holy, crap you've been recording her since February. This garbage has been going on for 10 months. You are obsessed and need counseling right now. She says crap is inappropriate


knightRider said:


> We started to read the books together and agreed to set boundaries:
> 1. Being open and honest
> 2. No one to ones with opposite sex in restaurants.
> 3. Me helping more around the house
> 4. More face to face time together
> 
> Things seemed to be going well until I noticed that she would always lock her computer when we worked from home. I aksed her to show me her emails as we had agreed to be open. *She said no as I would see some mails to mail colleagues that I would interpret the wrong way.*


and then you get proof it is exactly what you feared.


knightRider said:


> I used the recorder.
> 
> *Heared my wife talking to a work colleague. Painful to hear them talking about me and laughing at me. Felt betrayed that she would laugh at me with a colleague of opp sex. *
> 
> Told my wife to choose between me and the colleague. After a few arguments over the last couple of days, she told me that she will leave her job and find work elsewhere. She will cut off all comms with the colleague.
> 
> Will see how this pans out.


So, now, you are in a self fulfilling prophecy. You keep pushing her, even subconsciously, to seek out other men to catch her in a "aha" moment. 
Be stronger, Be better and get off this merry go round.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

knightRider said:


> Yes but this is a forum of people that I will not have the chance to shag :surprise:
> .


Doesn't matter. No privacy means no privacy. If you wouldn't be willing to do it yourself you shouldn't be doing it to your spouse. 
I know you think I am on you because of the VAR but I do think that is a huge problem that will limit any chance you had at saving your marriage. 
You have to choose to forgive and trust or leave. There's no right or wrong choice between the two but this middle ground of spying and unhealthy behaviors isn't acceptable or ok. 
Neither of you should live like this and you'll never get to the place where she opens up to you by spying on her and asking her about people she may have slept with.
You're making yourself not a safe person for her. 

and there have been several people who end up shagging after meeting on TAM. No where is 100% safe.


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## bandit.45

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Meh..... You're going to have to deal with it. We are currently at an increased threat level with gender anger on TAM right now.
> 
> I don't recommend polygraphs or VARs anymore. You can become to obsessed checking which, skimming your older threads, sounds like where you are at. Honestly, I'd divorce.
> 
> You've already admitted, in other threads, she has repeatedly broken agreed upon boundaries and the trust is gone. Leave.


Yep. When a spouse demonstrates no boundaries, that person is a dangerous spouse. I agree. Move on with an amicable D and find a woman who shares your values. There is too much imbalance in your marriage.


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## turnera

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> But you have to make yourself the person she can talk to, trust and know that you won't judge her or criticize her or analyze her.
> If you aren't that person then she won't share with you first.


As I recall, SHE is the one who started the marriage down this wrong path, not knightrider. Let's not get into a philosophical discussion that's not pertinent, shall we?

She's been treating him like crap for some time now, throwing up lots of red flags, so yes, he has the authority and DUTY to find out the truth since she has stopped investing in the marriage. If she IS cheating, she needs him to rescue her from the high, the addiction, she's getting from it, and she's not going to tell him the truth.

And yes, knightrider, she's flirting. Not full-on 'let's go fvck,' but having fun with another man, definitely.

What else are you doing to learn what a good marriage looks like? His Needs Her Needs? No More Mr Nice Guy? Therapy? And are you aware (from HNHN) what her top Emotional Needs are and are you meeting those needs? And do you know what your Love Busters are, and are you working to remove them? Without doing this, she has no reason to reinvest in you.


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## bandit.45

Listen to Turnera.


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## knightRider

turnera said:


> As I recall, SHE is the one who started the marriage down this wrong path, not knightrider. Let's not get into a philosophical discussion that's not pertinent, shall we?
> 
> She's been treating him like crap for some time now, throwing up lots of red flags, so yes, he has the authority and DUTY to find out the truth since she has stopped investing in the marriage. If she IS cheating, she needs him to rescue her from the high, the addiction, she's getting from it, and she's not going to tell him the truth.
> 
> And yes, knightrider, she's flirting. Not full-on 'let's go fvck,' but having fun with another man, definitely.
> 
> What else are you doing to learn what a good marriage looks like? His Needs Her Needs? No More Mr Nice Guy? Therapy? And are you aware (from HNHN) what her top Emotional Needs are and are you meeting those needs? And do you know what your Love Busters are, and are you working to remove them? Without doing this, she has no reason to reinvest in you.


thanks, turnera. Read books with her. Done the emotional needs. 
Flirting was a boundary, it's broken. Shame but Divorce looks likely now.


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## turnera

What books and what did she say about them? What are her emotional needs and how are you meeting them? Does she know YOUR ENs and has she said she's willing to meet them? What was the boundary agreed upon and what have you said about her breaking it before now?


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## lifeistooshort

knightRider said:


> We talk regularly, read books together, try and spend time together. I will ask her about this other chap and see what see says.
> 
> If I turned it the other way and said a male colleague was discussing things with a female and mentioned penis enlargement on the state, would that be flirting?


Nope, unless there was a flirty undertone to it. If everyone was laughing about it then I see no problem.

Have you directly asked your wife why she doesn't share more about her childhood? Have you asked her about said childhood?

You can make assumptions all day long if you want but until you understand why she doesn't share you're spinning your wheels.


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## knightRider

turnera said:


> What books and what did she say about them? What are her emotional needs and how are you meeting them? Does she know YOUR ENs and has she said she's willing to meet them? What was the boundary agreed upon and what have you said about her breaking it before now?


Boundaries:

1.	No sex, flirting, touching, commenting on appearance of opposite sex
2.	No 1 to 1 with opposite sex outside of work office. 
3.	No discussing of marriage with anyone else
4.	Do not go to parties or places of alcohol without each other 
5.	Be transparent to each other

"Tell me no lies", "HNHN". 

Her needs were:

Help at home
Emotional support
Be there for family
Open

My needs:

Open 
Sex
friendship

Think I said that flirting would lead to me out.


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## knightRider

lifeistooshort said:


> Nope, unless there was a flirty undertone to it. If everyone was laughing about it then I see no problem.
> 
> Have you directly asked your wife why she doesn't share more about her childhood? Have you asked her about said childhood?
> 
> You can make assumptions all day long if you want but until you understand why she doesn't share you're spinning your wheels.


They were talking alone at work


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

turnera said:


> As I recall, SHE is the one who started the marriage down this wrong path, not knightrider. Let's not get into a philosophical discussion that's not pertinent, shall we?
> 
> She's been treating him like crap for some time now, throwing up lots of red flags, so yes, he has the authority and DUTY to find out the truth since she has stopped investing in the marriage. If she IS cheating, she needs him to rescue her from the high, the addiction, she's getting from it, and she's not going to tell him the truth.


There is no justification for spying for 10 months IMO. At some point it just boarders on abusive and controlling behavior and if the marriage is so bad he has to go to this level he might as well just leave. 

There's no good outcome. Either she's cheating or she's not but even if she's not and she finds out about the spying, even some of it, she will never trust or respect him again and the marriage is over regardless.


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## lifeistooshort

bandit.45 said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Yeah! By being a pushover! :rofl:


That's how you see it.

I see it as him obsessing over whether her laughing at women getting b00b jobs on the state is flirting.....if he's come to that point the marriage is probably over. I could easily laugh about something like that with any guy I work with and it would mean absolutely nothing.

If they otherwise had a good marriage things like that might not be such a big deal. I can't imagine my husband getting upset over something like that, and I could care less if he laughs about some loser getting penis enlargements on the state with women coworkers. Unless there was a general flirty tone to the conversation or our marriage sucked.

Boundaries are important.....I had a huge fight with my hb last year about his lack of boundaries where his ex wife and her family were concerned. Which thankfully he has greatly improved. But I will not record him and spy on him....if I feel the need to do that it's because I already have a good idea of what I'm going to find and have no interest in obsessing over every small detail in his daily interactions.

He's to the point of obsessing over stupid details and trying to read things into them.....the marriage is on life support.


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## ButtPunch

The OP even asked you to leave but your pride and enormous egos
wouldn't let you. Had to get the last word. SMDH


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## lifeistooshort

knightRider said:


> They were talking alone at work


You didn't answer the question. Was there a flirty undertone to it and have you asked your wife why she doesn't talk about her childhood more often with you?


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## Omego

I don't think the sharing about childhood is the issue. I think she just feels attracted to and at ease with the other guy. The conversation could have been about anything. She's establishing a bond with the guy.
Sorry KR but it seems as though you're the one making all of the effort.

Time to step back a bit and think about whether or not you want to continue in this dynamic.

Asking her to read books with you and evaluate the marriage just makes you look insecure and needy. This just reinforces her attraction to the other guy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## knightRider

lifeistooshort said:


> You didn't answer the question. Was there a flirty undertone to it and have you asked your wife why she doesn't talk about her childhood more often with you?


Well she was laughing with him, so I'd say yes, flirting. We did talk about childhood, she went into more detail with this guy.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ButtPunch said:


> The OP even asked you to leave but your pride and enormous egos
> wouldn't let you. Had to get the last word. SMDH


Open forum means all kinds of opinions. This isn't a VAR support group, it's a marriage forum. 
Him just hearing from the support group side is just going to further his behavior and paranoia. If he only wants to hear things that will agree with him then he doesn't have to read but maybe if he listens to some people who are against what he is doing he will think twice about it.


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## lifeistooshort

knightRider said:


> Well she was laughing with him, so I'd say yes, flirting. We did talk about childhood, she went into more detail with this guy.


So does laughing with someone mean flirting? Are you flirting with every woman you laugh with?

I'm not even flirting with my hb every time I laugh with him. Sometimes I am and sometimes I'm laughing because something is funny. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> There is no justification for spying for 10 months IMO. At some point it just boarders on abusive and controlling behavior and if the marriage is so bad he has to go to this level he might as well just leave.
> 
> There's no good outcome. Either she's cheating or she's not but even if she's not and she finds out about the spying, even some of it, she will never trust or respect him again and the marriage is over regardless.


Healthy marriages usually do not require such scrutiny or "spying" as you call it. 

It's not spying. It's called protecting and fighting for the marriage. If she had demonstrated from the onset that she could be trusted, he would never have found himself in a position to where he would have to do this. 

She has demonstrated several times throughout their marriage that she is untrustworthy and dangerous, and that she has very little respect for anyone's needs and feelings but her own. 

She is simply not wife material. She does not have it in her to live with any kind of honesty or integrity. She's a sneak. She might be an okay wife for someone like Hugh Hefner, who is too old to give a crap. 

Read the OP's prior threads. It will give you a more well-rounded idea of what he has been dealing with.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Don't get caught in a side argument about privacy. 

Honestly, why are you still with this woman? She hasn't respected you for a long time.


> The last 2 months have been going well. I've been monitoring her with VAR and phone. Nothing suspicious showed up.
> 
> Recently my wife has arranged leaving drinks for an old colleague. I asked if I could come along and she said no. I asked why and she said that previously I had told her to keep away from the "laughing" colleague and she is afraid that if I see him I will cause a scene.


 At least you went anyway. Personally, I do not like the "no" to protect "laughing boy."



> My wife thought the marriage was quite healthy, but she wanted more trust from me and more "freedom". I was surprised by this considering all the arguments that we've had. I asked about what she meant by "freedom" and she said be able to go to drinks without me.


See, I get this except, she wanted to hang out by herself where "laughing boy" may appear. Plus, she told you no.



> My pen VAR has gone missing,


Seriously? It went missing, you bought another one, but NEVER THOUGHT she found it and is now watching her words? Stop it dude, just stop it. At this point, you are just as toxic as your wife.

Sorry, get out now.


----------



## Omego

OP I think you're so deep into questioning yourself, her motivations, etc. that you cannot see it as we outsiders do.

Re above post by phillybeffandswiss: no, just no. How can she refuse your presence like that? Is there something you have done to warrant this?

It's so over the top disrespectful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

So, what happened with the counseling?


----------



## bandit.45

I only advocate VAR to prove there is evidence an affair going on and the BS needs proof. In the OP's case, all of that is moot because there is a huge disconnect between his values and his wife's values. There is simply no parity in their core beliefs. This goes way beyond issues with trust. This is, at its heart, a compatibility issue. The OP and his wife are not compatible. 

Love is a wonderful thing, but it only serves as the glue to bind the other necessary ingredients together that form a marriage: trust, fidelity, honesty, dedication, devotion, mutual respect....

OP how many other virtues exist in your marriage other than the love? I would say there are not many.


----------



## ButtPunch

bandit.45 said:


> I only advocate VAR to prove there is evidence an affair going on and the BS needs proof. In the OP's case, all of that is moot because there is a huge disconnect between his values and his wife's values. There is simply no parity in their core beliefs. This goes way beyond issues with trust. This is, at its heart, a compatibility issue. The OP and his wife are not compatible.
> 
> Love is a wonderful thing, but it only serves as the glue to bind the other necessary ingredients together that form a marriage: trust, fidelity, honesty, dedication, devotion, mutual respect....
> 
> OP how many other virtues exist in your marriage other than the love? I would say there are not many.


THIS!

10 months is entirely too long and borderline obsessive. I can only imagine how miserable those 10 months have been. Enough is enough.


----------



## ButtPunch

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Open forum means all kinds of opinions. This isn't a VAR support group, it's a marriage forum.
> Him just hearing from the support group side is just going to further his behavior and paranoia. If he only wants to hear things that will agree with him then he doesn't have to read but maybe if he listens to some people who are against what he is doing he will think twice about it.


Open forum means I get to drive my agenda home even if the OP wants to hear it or not. 

Take your threadjack over to the VAR thread where it belongs and is discussed at length.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ButtPunch said:


> THIS!
> 
> 10 months is entirely too long and borderline obsessive. I can only imagine how miserable those 10 months have been. Enough is enough.


On this we can agree. He's to the point where laughing=flirting. 

Time to pull the plug.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## knightRider

I have tried hard for this marriage. I cannot trust her. Think it's time to move on.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

He had his proof in the first four months. She asked for freedom at the counselors to drink with who she wants, she didn't want him showing up at a place where laughing colleague might show up, she laughed about him with said colleague and she continues to have questionable conversations with male coworkers flirty or not. 

AT this point though, he is basically a voyeur. Sorry, I can't support his current actions of spying. Time to go.


----------



## knightRider

lifeistooshort said:


> On this we can agree. He's to the point where laughing=flirting.
> 
> Time to pull the plug.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okay, so some people think she was flirting, others say not. Seems people are divided over it.


----------



## bandit.45

phillybeffandswiss said:


> He had his proof in the first four months. She asked for freedom at the counselors to drink with who she wants, she didn't want him showing up at a place where laughing colleague might show up, she laughed about him with said colleague and she continues to have questionable conversations with male coworkers flirty or not.
> 
> AT this point though, he is basically a voyeur. Sorry, I can't support his current actions.


I would agree that he is obsessing. And that is just no way to live one's life. 

Voyeur? That's a little overkill. 

But I agree that he will find no peace with this woman and he needs to move on.


----------



## Happilymarried25

You should not have asked her if she slept with the guy she dated. It was before she met you and it's none of your business who she slept with. She shouldn't have said fnck off to you. I would have told you it was none of your business and she didn't need to answer that question. You are both in the wrong. You obviously don't trust her if you have to record her.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

bandit.45 said:


> Voyeur? That's a little overkill.
> 
> .


No, stalker would have been overkill. I dialed it back. We obviously have different definitions for the word.


----------



## bandit.45

knightRider said:


> Okay, so some people think she was flirting, others say not. Seems people are divided over it.


In the end it doesn't matter what we think. What you think is what matters, and I get the feeling that you value fidelity and loyalty to the marriage more than she does. 

She's a fluttering little socialite who craves attention and wants all the freedom to flirt, party and do whatever the hell she wants; while at the same time wanting a stable, submissive husband back home waiting for her.. a husband who puts up with her disrespect and won't question her, keeps his mouth shut: basically a male roommate who she has sex with once in a while. 

Nah... this is no marriage.


----------



## lifeistooshort

knightRider said:


> Okay, so some people think she was flirting, others say not. Seems people are divided over it.


Most people can tell when there's a flirty undertone. If there wasn't and it was simply laughing do you think you'd be able to tell? 

Or are you to the point where you're so paranoid that you can't tell the difference? 

Honestly don't mean that question to be nasty, it's a sincere question.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, stalker would have been overkill. I dialed it back. We obviously have different definitions for the word.


Nah... you're over-extending dude. OP isn't doing anything different than what many here espouse anyone in his position should do. 

You are making him out to be a obsessive psycho. C'mon Philly, you're better than that. 

He may be obsessing a little, but I don't see any real danger in what he's doing. He wants to get a bead on what his wife is doing. I can't knock him for that. I just think he's been at it too long and needs to extricate himself from a sh!t situation that she has put him in.


----------



## bandit.45

lifeistooshort said:


> Most people can tell when there's a flirty undertone. If there wasn't and it was simply laughing do you think you'd be able to tell?
> 
> Or are you to the point where you're so paranoid that you can't tell the difference?
> 
> Honestly don't mean that question to be nasty, it's a sincere question.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No...you are being nasty. You're just putting rhinestones and bangles on your words trying to make your snide remarks palatable.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Don't worry you aren't paranoid. Your wife showed you her true colors much earlier, you just keep looking for the perfect piece of evidence. You most likely aren't going to get it, especially if she really found the VAR, just move on.


----------



## Omego

bandit.45 said:


> In the end it doesn't matter what we think. What you think is what matters, and I get the feeling that you value fidelity and loyalty to the marriage more than she does.
> 
> She's a fluttering little socialite who craves attention and wants all the freedom to flirt, party and do whatever the hell she wants; while at the same time wanting a stable, submissive husband back home waiting for her.. a husband who puts up with her disrespect and won't question her, keeps his mouth shut: basically a male roommate who she has sex with once in a while.
> 
> Nah... this is no marriage.


Sadly I think this is 100% accurate. I've seen it before, more than once. Seems that the two of you are incompatible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TAM2013

Read this, OP.


----------



## bandit.45

TAM2013 said:


> Read this, OP.


Number XVI, the last one, is the best of all of them, and a rule that all men should remember and follow.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

bandit.45 said:


> Nah... you're over-extending dude. OP isn't doing anything different than what many here espouse anyone in his position should do.


 Straw man, don't put your words into my posts. Read my words again or ignore them.



> You are making him out to be a obsessive psycho.


 Nope, I did no such thing. 


> C'mon Philly, you're better than that.


[email protected] Funny considering your little diatribe to LTS about palatable insults. He's been doing this for 10 months, he is long past the normal stage. 


> He may be obsessing a little, but I don't see any real danger in what he's doing. He wants to get a bead on what his wife is doing. I can't knock him for that. I just think he's been at it too long and needs to extricate himself from a sh!t situation that she has put him in.


I repeat 10 MONTHS after he had proof. Yes, he is a voyeur at this point. Don't like what I wrote, then put me on ignore. Your minimization and straw man argument is ridiculous. From the start, I've said he should go and NEVER said he was wrong for using a VAR. I have said it is now TOO LONG.


----------



## bandit.45

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Straw man, don't put your words into my posts. Read my words again or ignore them.
> 
> Nope, I did no such thing.
> [email protected] Funny considering your little diatribe to LTS about palatable insults. He's been doing this for 10 months, he is long past the normal stage.
> I repeat 10 MONTHS after he had proof. Yes, he is a voyeur at this point. Don't like what I wrote, then put me on ignore. Your minimization and straw man argument is ridiculous.


No I won't ignore you. Just disagreeing with you. 

But I do agree he has been at this too long.


----------



## knightRider

Come on guys, lets not have insults. I'm trying to do my best. No I'm not a *****. I've tried to make things work. Life changing time for me.


----------



## ButtPunch

knightRider said:


> Come on guys, lets not have insults. I'm trying to do my best. No I'm not a *****. I've tried to make things work. Life changing time for me.


That's right and you are responsible for making that change.

Your wife isn't going to and is content with the way things are.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

knightRider said:


> Come on guys, lets not have insults. I'm trying to do my best. No I'm not a *****. I've tried to make things work. Life changing time for me.


No one said you weren't doing your best. The word has been filtered so, I have no clue what you mean. I have yet to insult you.


----------



## Omego

I think he meant bickering between posters on the thread?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## knightRider

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No one said you weren't doing your best. The word has been filtered so, I have no clue what you mean. I have yet to insult you.


Not referring to you. Just the general tone of this thread. 18 years of marriage, most of which I was a muppet. Anyway, onwards...


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I'll move along from the VAR stuff but did want to mention this 

Point 1: I have not spoken to her since she swore at me, that's 2 days now. I told her that I will not speak to her without an apology.

Silent treatment is never a good solution. 
Silent Treatment Is Toxic To Relationships - Business Insider

I think you should be done with this marriage anyway but for the future, learning better communication methods will help.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

knightRider said:


> Anyway, onwards...


You should. This is too much energy to put into any spouse, who wants freedom to drink and have lunches without you in general. Doing so with the opposite sex only exacerbates the situations.


----------



## bandit.45

I think Philly and a lot of others are just frustrated with you and how much you have been willing to put up with in order to save what is basically a one-sided marriage. 

We all have your best interests at heart. TAM is like sausage... the parts, separately, are not very appetizing, but when you mix it together the final product tastes pretty good.

I respect Philly. I don't always agree with him, but 95% of the time he is spot on.


----------



## knightRider

Yes, I was doing it mainly for the kids and a faint hope that she would change. 

Thanks to all contributors so far.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

knightRider said:


> Yes, I was doing it mainly for the kids and a faint hope that she would change.
> 
> Thanks to all contributors so far.


I understand, but at a certain point you have to teach your kids to respect themselves first. You went to counseling, you've VAR'ed and you have talked with her, but things keep going back to her normal. She was having a laugh, at your expense, with another man. She is sharing childhood memories, things you have never heard about, with another man. It must be something important to get you worried and questioning the marriage again. 

It's very hard, ask the females here who point it out all of the time, for women to regain respect and attraction for men. Yes, even the ones arguing privacy and calling you into questions have said as much in other threads.


----------



## ButtPunch

knightRider said:


> Yes, I was doing it mainly for the kids and a faint hope that she would change.
> 
> Thanks to all contributors so far.


You are the catalyst for change not her.

This is the single most important thing posters have a hard time grasping.

She is content with the way things are. You have to change your life.


----------



## jld

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I understand, but at a certain point you have to teach your kids to respect themselves first. You went to counseling, you've VAR'ed and you have talked with her, but things keep going back to her normal. She was having a laugh, at your expense, with another man. She is sharing childhood memories, things you have never heard about, with another man. It must be something important to get you worried and questioning the marriage again.
> 
> It's very hard, ask the females here who point it out all of the time, for women to regain respect and attraction for men. Yes, even the ones arguing privacy and calling you into questions have said as much in other threads.


I feel respect and attraction to men who demonstrate maturity, compassion, and respect for the vulnerable. Controlling, insecure behavior is a major turn off for me.


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Open forum means all kinds of opinions. This isn't a VAR support group, it's a marriage forum.
> Him just hearing from the support group side is just going to further his behavior and paranoia. If he only wants to hear things that will agree with him then he doesn't have to read but maybe if he listens to some people who are against what he is doing he will think twice about it.


I think this is important. Ultimately TAM is a buffet of experiences and opinions.

"Take what you like, and leave the rest."


----------



## Chaparral

You said she wouldn't let you read her emails because of what you would see going on between her and the men she works with.

You caught her and a coworker laughing at you behind your back.

You said she would look for another job, did she?

Time to move on.


----------



## Omego

@jld: but how can he exhibit the qualities you refer to when she behaves so disrespectfully. Wouldn't you feel awful if your H asked you not to show up for drinks with a female colleague?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Omego said:


> @jld: but how can he exhibit the qualities you refer to when she behaves so disrespectfully. Wouldn't you feel awful if your H asked you not to show up for drinks with a female colleague?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe she would not do that if he changed how he behaves, especially towards her?

Full disclosure: I have not read his other threads.


----------



## Omego

But why should it be his fault? Maybe he didn't do anything besides be himself. 

I haven't read the other threads either however...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

Please clarify your first point on your first post about the man you are talking about. On that you thread you indicate you were married. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-setting-boundaries-then-breaking-them-4.html

Based on this I think you need to continue to use a Var. 

You also need to use the 180. Remember at all times be both diplomatic and stoic. Right now work on yourself and plan how to divorce your life and your post divorce life. Have this done and then have a final discussion on the marriage along the lines of your thread about boundaries -without revealing the plans you made. Make clear this is the last time you will discuss this matter. 

If she fails to answer the bell then have her served without warning. If she at this point says I didn't realize how important this is to you - do not stop the divorce. I think the UK has a two year cooling off period. If she wants to try to reconcile let her try while the clock is running.


----------



## turnera

Sometimes, jld, a woman is JUST A SPOILED BRAT.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Omego said:


> But why should it be his fault? Maybe he didn't do anything besides be himself.


Please don't. Please, don't get her back up on the blame men soapbox.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Omego said:


> @jld: but how can he exhibit the qualities you refer to when she behaves so disrespectfully. Wouldn't you feel awful if your H asked you not to show up for drinks with a female colleague?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Disrespect gets thrown around a lot. IMO you earn respect, it's not just given. If H lost my respect then I'd want him to talk to me - and listen! - about why, not just get pissy that it's gone. 
And I have lost respect for him in the past. It is now back along with love and attraction. 

But in general I read through one of his threads. Seems to me like it's a difference of where their boundaries should be and not so much 1 bad guy, 1 good guy. They just aren't good together.

There are a lot of marriages where both spouses do, or are ok with, going out with friends alone, don't include the spouse in work drinks or work e-mails and whatnot, ok with OSF. 
Then there are marriages where both spouses are ok with no privacy, no work friends, no social activities without each other and so on. 
One is not better than the other, it's all individual but both people must be on the same page and the OP and his wife are not. 

He can't change her any more than she can change him into being ok with it. 
OP's wife is more suited for a man who is ok with OSF and work outings, OP is more suited to a woman who is not.

It's trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Disrespect gets thrown around a lot. IMO you earn respect, it's not just given.


I do not have to respect you to treat you with contempt or disrespect.


----------



## lifeistooshort

bandit.45 said:


> No...you are being nasty. You're just putting rhinestones and bangles on your words trying to make your snide remarks palatable.


No, in fact I was not being nasty. It's possible that at this point he's so suspicious of her, maybe with good reason, that he wouldn't be able to tell if it was innocent. 

But thanks for assuming you knew what I meant and how I meant it.

You've read enough of my posts to know that if I mean to be nasty I don't need to pretend I don't. .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

Knight go see some solicitors knowledge is power.
If you decide to pull the plug serve her at work.
At least you tried it's obvious she didn't.:frown2:


----------



## bandit.45

lifeistooshort said:


> No, in fact I was not being nasty. It's possible that at this point he's so suspicious of her, maybe with good reason, that he wouldn't be able to tell if it was innocent.
> 
> But thanks for assuming you knew what I meant and how I meant it.
> 
> You've read enough of my posts to know that if I mean to be nasty I don't need to pretend I don't. .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fair enough. Every person here has an agenda, whether they admit it or not. Myself included.


----------



## lifeistooshort

bandit.45 said:


> Fair enough. Every person here has an agenda, whether they admit it or not. Myself included.


It's ok, we're good 

Fyi, as stated in my other posts I think he's only harming himself right now, he knows all he needs to know about her values and boundaries. He'd ultimately be much happier without her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I do not have to respect you to treat you with contempt or disrespect.


I agree, I just don't see disrespect as the same as others, like a character flaw of a person who must be just horrible. 

I think it's a symptom of a failing marriage and often there is blame to go around for it. 
"She/He disrespected me", I think well were you acting in a way that would be respected? 
OP's wife laughed at him about acting childish. He admitted to acting childish, yelling and accusing. 
OP's wife didn't want him at a function until the counselor said it would be a good idea, OP called and threatened her coworker after recording their conversation. 
OP's wife swears at him, OP stops talking to her for 2 days. 

I can see disrespect and reason to be disrespectful on both sides, blame on both sides, it's just a big mess and I can't fault either of them for not respecting or trusting the other at this point. 
I don't, like many here, think she's just a horrible person who doesn't deserve the OP because she's disrespectful as a character flaw. 

I think they are both just on very different pages and pushing each other away and aren't a good fit for each other.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Jid,

Again I find myself in agreement in the general sense but disagree with the details. The only detail we disagree on is your post is to neutral. In this case it is on her and she needs to go.

Did you read the thread I linked to? Listening to spouse denigrate you to a close female friend can be put down to venting. In this case I (and I think you) would sallow my pride and objectively exam the vent for issues I need to own. In his case it was another man she was leading on. 

Combined with the breaking of agreed boundaries she has betrayed him and will do so again. He needs to get his ducks in a row without sharing with her his intentions. There is no room for being open and honest in this matter. Betrayal changes everything.

This is where no more mr nice guy applies.


----------



## ButtPunch

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I think they are both just on very different pages and pushing each other away and aren't a good fit for each other.


Problem is getting the OP to accept that fact.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I agree, I just don't see disrespect as the same as others, like a character flaw of a person who must be just horrible.


 I do not see people parsing it in this fashion. I think this is your way of defining respect and disrespect. Something we all tend to do and why threads go on forever and ever over definitions based disagreements.


> I think it's a symptom of a failing marriage and often there is blame to go around for it.
> "She/He disrespected me", I think well were you acting in a way that would be respected?
> OP's wife laughed at him about acting childish. He admitted to acting childish, yelling and accusing.
> OP's wife didn't want him at a function until the counselor said it would be a good idea, OP called and threatened her coworker after recording their conversation.
> OP's wife swears at him, OP stops talking to her for 2 days.
> I can see disrespect and reason to be disrespectful on both sides, blame on both sides, it's just a big mess and I can't fault either of them for not respecting or trusting the other at this point.
> I don't, like many here, think she's just a horrible person who doesn't deserve the OP because she's disrespectful as a character flaw.
> 
> I think they are both just on very different pages and pushing each other away and aren't a good fit for each other.


It's okay we disagree based on your first sentence and some of the context you are choosing to remove.


----------



## knightRider

I have been reading No more Mr Nice... it is a top book.

Fact is she agreed to boundaries and broke them. I will take my time with this. 18 yrs is a long time to throw away. 

I spoke to her at work earlier and told her I heard her conversations. She tried to justify it but I became angry  
I think she was flirting, it was her tone also. Just cannot get over the fact she's close enough to this guy to talk about breasts and innuendo. Also discussing her childhood. 

Anyway told her I want divorce due to boundary breaking, she is not talking to me.


----------



## knobcreek

knightRider said:


> Anyway told her I want divorce due to boundary breaking, she is not talking to me.


WOW, that seems excessive for the rather benign stuff you got on record over 8 months of recording conversations. Good luck, once you drop the D word it's very hard to go back.


----------



## ButtPunch

knobcreek said:


> WOW, that seems excessive for the rather benign stuff you got on record over 8 months of recording conversations. Good luck, once you drop the D word it's very hard to go back.


He should have ended this many many VAR recordings ago.

OP stick to your guns as once she sees you are serious that's when 
she will really test your resolve.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

knightRider said:


> Anyway told her I want divorce due to boundary breaking, she is not talking to me.


OP, that might come across as a threat or you being angry and not something serious. 

Go see a lawyer and get all the details sorted out, sit her down with details in hand and tell her you want a divorce because you are just on different pages and can't agree on what is an isn't ok behavior in a marriage. Those kinds of conversations you heard could go either way between ok and not ok depending on the person so it's a difference of opinion. 
I want a divorce because you ______ leads to an argument, her saying "no, I didn't, there's nothing wrong with me laughing with a coworker" and around and around it goes
You'll have more luck, IMO, framing it as you are both just incompatible or have irreconcilable differences. No need to blame or fight, just move on.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

knightRider said:


> thanks, jld. Why would I apologize for her swearing at me?


true - but why would you make such an issue about a small deal.

apologising for your action is generally a bad idea for a bloke as it makes you look weak, and if you were really sorry you would be changing it so there would be no chance of it happening again.

the more apologising to do, the less mana/respect you hold, so the less she will listen or put importance on you, so your status in the household and relationship will fall. Eventually she will ask herself why do I put up with this dipstick, and kick you to the curb


----------



## jld

spotthedeaddog said:


> true - but why would you make such an issue about a small deal.
> 
> apologising for your action is generally a bad idea for a bloke as it makes you look weak, and if you were really sorry you would be changing it so there would be no chance of it happening again.
> 
> the more apologising to do, the less mana/respect you hold, so the less she will listen or put importance on you, so your status in the household and relationship will fall. Eventually she will ask herself why do I put up with this dipstick, and kick you to the curb


I disagree that apologizing makes you look weak. I respect people who apologize. I think it takes inner strength to look at our failings and ask forgiveness.


----------



## turnera

Apologize for what YOU do. Not for your partner being a twit.

Could he have said what he said in a different way? Yes. But given her behavior, I see no reason to.


----------



## Wolf1974

turnera said:


> Apologize for what YOU do. Not for your partner being a twit.
> 
> Could he have said what he said in a different way? Yes. But given her behavior, I see no reason to.


Correct. Apologizing for things the other person knows your weren't wrong for makes you not only look weak but incompetent as well


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

turnera said:


> Apologize for what YOU do. Not for your partner being a twit.
> *
> Could he have said what he said in a different way? Yes. But given her behavior, I see no reason to*.


See and I feel the same about him as well. Yes, she didn't have to tell him to F*ck off when he asked about her previous sex life but given his behavior of accusing, snooping and some overreaction (like a 2 day silent treatment over a swear word) I see no reason why not to. I tell people that all the time so it's just not a big deal to me though. 

As far as I could tell the OP's wife has not been caught actually cheating. 
In the 10 or so months she's been watched and recorded there was one instance where she said "Hey you" to a male coworker, one where she was laughing about her husband behavior with a male, and the talking mentioned in this thread. All is pretty iffy if it was even flirting or not. 
She also didn't want him at her work event or to read work e-mails which she _says _is because of his history of snooping and overreacting. 

I see a woman a little loose on boundaries considering her husband's needs - in another marriage it would be fine- but nothing so horrific I could justify calling her a twit or brat or whatever or call her co-worker her POSOM and treat them like cheaters, call him to threaten him, spy on her, etc. 

I don't think the OP is wrong either, this is how he feels and that's ok. It's just not a match and that's why he should divorce but he should keep it at "we aren't a match" and not try to blame cheating or even her. It's just not compatible.


----------



## bandit.45

knightRider said:


> I have been reading No more Mr Nice... it is a top book.
> 
> Fact is she agreed to boundaries and broke them. I will take my time with this. 18 yrs is a long time to throw away.
> 
> I spoke to her at work earlier and told her I heard her conversations. She tried to justify it but I became angry
> I think she was flirting, it was her tone also. Just cannot get over the fact she's close enough to this guy to talk about breasts and innuendo. Also discussing her childhood.
> 
> Anyway told her I want divorce due to boundary breaking, she is not talking to me.


You know you have to follow through don't you?

You know she does not believe you would go through with it don't you?

One thing that will destroy any respect she may have left for you is if you cave and not go through with it. 

You are committed now son.....


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Oh I am such an idiot. I mentioned it earlier, but couldn't understand the false equivocation going on by some posters. Got it now. Still disagree, but now I understand.


----------



## jdawg2015

Holland said:


> OK I get that this is an American thing but honestly it is creepy. So you have red flags but do you really think when she finds out you have been spying on her that she will EVER trust you?
> 
> What is hard to understand from an outsiders POV is why don't you just talk to her? Can tell you that if I ever found out my partner was spying on me it would be the absolute end of our relationship, it is a really dishonest and creepy act. Be an adult and have a conversation, if she won't return the conversation then your relationship is over anyway.


You need to read his original thread. 

Wife told him that she did not want him to see emails between her and a co-worker because he would "get the wrong idea".

No sane person would not see that as a red flag.


----------



## jdawg2015

knightRider said:


> as I started this thread, can you please not post on it if you're gonna have a pop at me over the VAR. Please read my old posts to see my position.


knightrider, don't be afraid to use the ignore feature in your settings.

There are some people who have constructive counter views (because obviously doing what you've already been doing is not working), but others are more interested in bashing.


----------



## jdawg2015

knightrider, you need to file for divorce. If she respected you, the convos etc would not be happening like this.

She probably even enjoys the fact that you are jealous and insecure now and feeds off it. The suspicion is warranted but now you need to put a plan into action.

Divorce sucks but unless she flops on the ground willingly and says will do anything to save marriage, even one ounce short of that kind of discussion, just move on my man. 

We all know when we've crossed the line. She knows it. She knows it bothers you but does not care. You've got your answer.

Once the D is final you will be a happy man.


----------



## knightRider

Wow, what a night. Arguments galore, not much sleep. 

Finally came down to her admitting that her behaviour was inappropriate with her colleague and she went over the line. She says that she knows him really well for over over 10 years and he's old etc. Says that I should come to her work..

I told her that we had boundaries and they were crossed. She said that she's had enough and what was I gonna do about it?
- I said divorce. 

Not sure how to proceed with 2 kids, one 15, other 13. Also not sure about UK divorce law. Will try and speak to a solicitor soon.


----------



## jdawg2015

knightRider said:


> Wow, what a night. Arguments galore, not much sleep.
> 
> Finally came down to her admitting that her behaviour was inappropriate with her colleague and she went over the line. She says that she knows him really well for over over 10 years and he's old etc. Says that I should come to her work..
> 
> I told her that we had boundaries and they were crossed. She said that she's had enough and what was I gonna do about it?
> - I said divorce.
> 
> Not sure how to proceed with 2 kids, one 15, other 13. Also not sure about UK divorce law. Will try and speak to a solicitor soon.


As painful as it feels now, she did you a favor. She basically said the friendship with him is worth more than you and her being married. It's quite telling once you accept her own words.

I'm not one to advocate the demise of someone's marriage but this will be a life of misery for you to continue with her.

When she actually has to sit down and sign that paper to divorce it will hit her like having her head inside a bell.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> I disagree that apologizing makes you look weak. I respect people who apologize. I think it takes inner strength to look at our failings and ask forgiveness.


I'm sorry you feel that way.


----------



## bandit.45

:surprise:


knightRider said:


> Wow, what a night. Arguments galore, not much sleep.
> 
> Finally came down to her admitting that her behaviour was inappropriate with her colleague and she went over the line. She says that she knows him really well for over over 10 years and he's old etc. Says that I should come to her work..
> 
> I told her that we had boundaries and they were crossed. She said that she's had enough and what was I gonna do about it?
> - I said divorce.
> 
> Not sure how to proceed with 2 kids, one 15, other 13. Also not sure about UK divorce law. Will try and speak to a solicitor soon.



Well, if you are in the UK you, as the man, will get hosed. But it would be better to live in a dingy flat the rest of your life than spend one more day with a duplicitous, untrustworthy partner would it not? 

Time to do the 180 hard. No more arguing. That time has passed and nothing came of it. Move forward, see a solicitor, and emigrate here to the US. :grin2:


----------



## Omego

knightRider said:


> Wow, what a night. Arguments galore, not much sleep.
> 
> Finally came down to her admitting that her behaviour was inappropriate with her colleague and she went over the line. She says that she knows him really well for over over 10 years and he's old etc. Says that I should come to her work..
> 
> I told her that we had boundaries and they were crossed. She said that she's had enough and what was I gonna do about it?
> - I said divorce.
> 
> Not sure how to proceed with 2 kids, one 15, other 13. Also not sure about UK divorce law. Will try and speak to a solicitor soon.


Didn't realize that kids were involved..... difficult situation.

Sounds like both of you have had enough. Hopefully you can have an amicable divorce.

One last thought in favor of not throwing in the towel: she said the colleague was old, thereby implying that she doesn't find him attractive (I assume) and suggested that you come by her office. Don't know if she was being facetious, but if she does radically change her behavior, you may want to reconsider....

Teenagers are hard enough to deal with in a stable family,.... let alone a broken one.


----------



## knightRider

Yes, Omego, it's not easy. I'm all confused right now, in a bit of a storm....


----------



## bandit.45

Omego said:


> Didn't realize that kids were involved..... difficult situation.
> 
> Sounds like both of you have had enough. Hopefully you can have an amicable divorce.
> 
> One last thought in favor of not throwing in the towel: she said the colleague was old, thereby implying that she doesn't find him attractive (I assume) and suggested that you come by her office. Don't know if she was being facetious, but if she does radically change her behavior, you may want to reconsider....
> 
> Teenagers are hard enough to deal with in a stable family,.... let alone a broken one.


If we had a brick for every WW who cheated on her husband with an old fart, we would have a big enough pile of bricks to construct a TAM community center....complete with basketball gym.


----------



## jdawg2015

Omego said:


> Didn't realize that kids were involved..... difficult situation.
> 
> Sounds like both of you have had enough. Hopefully you can have an amicable divorce.
> 
> One last thought in favor of not throwing in the towel: she said the colleague was old, thereby implying that she doesn't find him attractive (I assume) and suggested that you come by her office. Don't know if she was being facetious, but if she does radically change her behavior, you may want to reconsider....
> 
> Teenagers are hard enough to deal with in a stable family,.... let alone a broken one.


He's old is a red herring. Common gaslighting tactic. Think about it. If what she was saying/doing was no issue she would not have described him with an adjective like "old". Negative attributes like he's fat, old, not my type should be wholly ignored in cases like this. 

My ex fiancé had an "old" friend that she said the same thing about and he was in FB. Turns out he was in fact 12 years older than her so she was not lying about that. But that same old guy she had actually shagged before meeting me


----------



## knightRider

On her side, over the last 10 months, she has:

closed Facebook, on my request, 
not gone out for drinks with work on my request
taken the family and I on a business trip to Ireland

Snooped her phone and found nothing. I have VARed her on and off during this period and found nothing until this.


----------



## bandit.45

knightRider said:


> On her side, over the last 10 months, she has:
> 
> closed Facebook, on my request,
> not gone out for drinks with work on my request
> taken the family and I on a business trip to Ireland
> 
> Snooped her phone and found nothing. I have VARed her on and off during this period and found nothing until this.


This is no way to live brother. Try to get her to see that. She has no clue how to conduct herself in a trusting marriage, and you have no clue how to deal with an untrustworthy wife. She has made you paranoid. Is this how you want to live the rest of your life? 

You have to figure out some way to give shape to your thoughts and get her to understand that you have her best interests at heart. 

She should be thanking you for giving her this opportunity to go and be the flaky Flibbertigibbet she has always wanted to be. I don't understand why she is arguing with you so much.


----------



## knightRider

bandit,

you are right. I've become excessively paranoid with her. All started at the beginning of the year. This will eventually destroy me. 

Still not sure what to do with the kids. Daughter needs me, I'm a role model for her. Maybe stay until they finish school?


----------



## jld

Have you two gone to counseling?


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> Have you two gone to counseling?


We went once. Do you think we should try more?


----------



## anchorwatch

knightRider said:


> We went once. Do you think we should try more?


What have you too lose? Time? A marriage? 


Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> We went once. Do you think we should try more?


Absolutely. 18 years and 2 kids are worth getting some professional advice.


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> Absolutely. 18 years and 2 kids are worth getting some professional advice.


Will try. I'm really confused right now.

thanks to all for your input!


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> Yes, Omego, it's not easy. I'm all confused right now, in a bit of a storm....


Unwise to take big decisions at an emotional time. Speak to a counselor. Think about what this will do to your kids.


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> Unwise to take big decisions at an emotional time. Speak to a counselor. Think about what this will do to your kids.


Yes, they are most for me now. I can put up with sh*t for my kids until they leave school.


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> Will try. I'm really confused right now.
> 
> thanks to all for your input!


How about sitting down with paper and pen and just writing out all your feelings? 

Just get everything out, however angry, sad, hurt, worried, etc., that you feel.


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> How about sitting down with paper and pen and just writing out all your feelings?
> 
> Just get everything out, however angry, sad, hurt, worried, etc., that you feel.


Good idea, will do. Going to councellor tonight


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> Yes, they are most for me now. I can put up with sh*t for my kids until they leave school.


Then stay, but work on things. A professional counselor, and not just us homemade ones on TAM , can really help a couple see more clearly.


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> Good idea, will do. Going to councellor tonight


Wow, you can get in that quickly? In America, it can easily take a month to get an appt.


----------



## anchorwatch

Be the adult. The two of you owe it to yourselves and your children to get some professional guidance before you end it.


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> Wow, you can get in that quickly? In America, it can easily take a month to get an appt.


that's my London style :laugh:


----------



## knightRider

Booked in at Relate, it's a UK charity that has trained people:

Relate | The relationship people


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

knightRider said:


> Yes, they are most for me now. I can put up with sh*t for my kids until they leave school.


IMO if you stay you have to stop the spying. It will just drive you crazy and neither of you can live like this. It will push her away, make her more vulnerable to _actually _have an affair and lose more respect for you. 

To many women the accusations of an affair, being hypersensitive to little things, trying to control behavior, makes a man look very weak and insecure. 
Weak and insecure men are not attractive emotionally or physically. 

There are some women, I see them here, who want a man who acts strong by shutting sh*t down, demanding respect, not putting up with any crap, laying down the law.

Other women, myself included, want a man who is strong by being able to brush things off, not being too sensitive to ego dings, and commands respect simply by being respectful. 

My H, if I hurt his feelings or laugh at him for something or cross some kind of line he will just brush it off, maybe tell me that it wasn't a very nice thing to do. Sometimes he'll jokingly ding me back and get into a play wrestling/tickle fight. Whatever it is, his ability to roll his eyes and move on is attractive to me and makes me _want _to be more careful not to hurt him. 
Him trying to pull a riot act on me and demanding I respect him would likely be meet with me LMAO and telling him to F-off and respect would go way down until eventually I stopped caring completely. 

Works both ways too, if I become an emotional mess my H is much less responsive to my needs, to saying sorry, to admitting he was wrong and not do it again. He gets defensive and counters my reactions with his own and it becomes a battle. 
If I brush it off, joke with him, tell him simply that it wasn't very nice. He easily apologize and we can hug it out and he doesn't do it again. 

Take this time to just focus on yourself, build your confidence so you know you're awesome no matter what she thinks and anything she does will just brush right off you. The more you build confidence the more respect you will naturally get and it becomes a positive cycle from then on.

But stop trying to make her respect you and do as you say. It just won't work and will only make things worse.


----------



## Omego

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> ITo many women the accusations of an affair, being hypersensitive to little things, trying to control behavior, makes a man look very weak and insecure.
> Weak and insecure men are not attractive emotionally or physically.


:iagree: There's no way around this. It's a universal truth. 

Focus on yourself and do things for YOU. Not for her. Stop trying to please her and get her to see things your way. At the end of the day, if she feels that this marriage is worth saving, she'll change. And if not you'll be gone.


----------



## knightRider

Omego said:


> :iagree: There's no way around this. It's a universal truth.
> 
> Focus on yourself and do things for YOU. Not for her. Stop trying to please her and get her to see things your way. At the end of the day, if she feels that this marriage is worth saving, she'll change. And if not you'll be gone.


wow, who said I was pleasing her? 
I am confident in myself. She flirts, I don't like it, simple. I'm not trying to control her, I just don't want to be made a fool. I have set boundaries, they have been broken. I have been reading many books on the subject.

Let's see how councelling goes. I'm not holding much hope, but will live until the kids are old enough. Right now, I can't trust her, nothing to do with control.


----------



## knightRider

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> IMO if you stay you have to stop the spying. It will just drive you crazy and neither of you can live like this. It will push her away, make her more vulnerable to _actually _have an affair and lose more respect for you.
> 
> To many women the accusations of an affair, being hypersensitive to little things, trying to control behavior, makes a man look very weak and insecure.
> Weak and insecure men are not attractive emotionally or physically.
> 
> There are some women, I see them here, who want a man who acts strong by shutting sh*t down, demanding respect, not putting up with any crap, laying down the law.
> 
> Other women, myself included, want a man who is strong by being able to brush things off, not being too sensitive to ego dings, and commands respect simply by being respectful.
> 
> My H, if I hurt his feelings or laugh at him for something or cross some kind of line he will just brush it off, maybe tell me that it wasn't a very nice thing to do. Sometimes he'll jokingly ding me back and get into a play wrestling/tickle fight. Whatever it is, his ability to roll his eyes and move on is attractive to me and makes me _want _to be more careful not to hurt him.
> Him trying to pull a riot act on me and demanding I respect him would likely be meet with me LMAO and telling him to F-off and respect would go way down until eventually I stopped caring completely.
> 
> Works both ways too, if I become an emotional mess my H is much less responsive to my needs, to saying sorry, to admitting he was wrong and not do it again. He gets defensive and counters my reactions with his own and it becomes a battle.
> If I brush it off, joke with him, tell him simply that it wasn't very nice. He easily apologize and we can hug it out and he doesn't do it again.
> 
> Take this time to just focus on yourself, build your confidence so you know you're awesome no matter what she thinks and anything she does will just brush right off you. The more you build confidence the more respect you will naturally get and it becomes a positive cycle from then on.
> 
> But stop trying to make her respect you and do as you say. It just won't work and will only make things worse.


She's caused my Paranoia by her behaviour. I'm not trying to control her, there are boundaries that we have agreed on. I'm not trying to make her do anything.

I am confident in myself. Work out 5/6 times a week, Thai box and weight train, yoga. I get quite a few women checking me out, but I do not flirt.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

knightRider said:


> wow, who said I was pleasing her?
> I am confident in myself. She flirts, I don't like it, simple. I'm not trying to control her, I just don't want to be made a fool. I have set boundaries, they have been broken. I have been reading many books on the subject.
> 
> Let's see how councelling goes. I'm not holding much hope, but will live until the kids are old enough. Right now, I can't trust her, nothing to do with control.


Her flirting is fairly tame IMO. Letting go of a lot of it and choosing boundaries that aren't so tight and rigid would be helpful.
It's kind of an instinct, when people feel like they are being held too tight to try to fight and break free.

Making every little thing she says "flirting" and against boundaries is counterproductive and just makes you look weak and powerless.
It makes the lines blurry and hard to stay in, it makes some women feel controlled. 

No one can _make _you a fool if you are confident enough in yourself. 
Stop caring about little things like her discussing health care paying for boob jobs or saying "hey you" to a guy. 
Be confident enough in yourself that you can brush it off.


----------



## syhoybenden

knightRider said:


> Yes, they are most for me now. I can put up with sh*t for my kids until they leave school.



The sad truth is that it's better for kids to come from a broken home than to have to live in one.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Why did you ask about her prior sex life with her ex? What made you ask this particular question?


----------



## knightRider

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Her flirting is fairly tame IMO. Letting go of a lot of it and choosing boundaries that aren't so tight and rigid would be helpful.
> It's kind of an instinct, when people feel like they are being held too tight to try to fight and break free.
> 
> Making every little thing she says "flirting" and against boundaries is counterproductive and just makes you look weak and powerless.
> It makes the lines blurry and hard to stay in, it makes some women feel controlled.
> 
> No one can _make _you a fool if you are confident enough in yourself.
> Stop caring about little things like her discussing health care paying for boob jobs or saying "hey you" to a guy.
> Be confident enough in yourself that you can brush it off.


Okay, agree to differ, my wife is a flirt, you think not. She's admitted it was wrong to talk the guy about tits at work. Yes, she is making a fool of me, that's why I'm not taking it. I'm not a *****. You are miss quoting a fair bit.


----------



## knobcreek

knightRider said:


> On her side, over the last 10 months, she has:
> 
> closed Facebook, on my request,
> not gone out for drinks with work on my request
> taken the family and I on a business trip to Ireland
> 
> Snooped her phone and found nothing. I have VARed her on and off during this period and found nothing until this.


Your wife is probably exhausted by this, forcing her to close her facebook account? Not allowed out for drinks with friends every now and again? Recording her conversations day and night? I mean this is no way for either of you to live. If you don't divorce her, with your behavior she will certainly divorce you. I get people cheat and that's terrible, but if this is what it takes to try to reconcile I don't see any reason to even try.


----------



## knightRider

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Why did you ask about her prior sex life with her ex? What made you ask this particular question?


Being open. I don't get why women are so protective of it. Is not feminism strong enough?
Anyway, let's not go off subject...


----------



## knightRider

knobcreek said:


> Your wife is probably exhausted by this, forcing her to close her facebook account? Not allowed out for drinks with friends every now and again? Recording her conversations day and night? I mean this is no way for either of you to live. If you don't divorce her, with your behavior she will certainly divorce you. I get people cheat and that's terrible, but if this is what it takes to try to reconcile I don't see any reason to even try.


Oh poor wifey, locking her computer, keeping secrets and flirting with men..Again lots of miss quoting..


----------



## knobcreek

I'm always shocked how vehemently and quickly people profess "she's disrespecting you man, divorce her, you'll be happy". Half his pay or more will be gone, his house, gone, he won't see his kids grow up, some other man will likely finish raising them in your house. It won't be all cake, and from what I can see after 8 months of recording her conversations he found one thing that I wouldn't have even of thought a big deal at all. 

Maybe your wife is looking to bang the "old dude" but nothing you have now is any proof of that. I would say go to therapy, try lightening up a little so your wife doesn't feel like a prisoner, be a great husband, if she then fvcks the old co-worker then you leave and you've done all you can. As it stands now you're practically driving her into his arms with your behavior.

I have to agree with others that your surveillance and "demands to be respected" and "putting your foot down" are clearly not working. Flip the script, pull a 180, stop obsessing, stop acting like you need to manage her, get other interests show your wife that you're simply moving on due to her bull****, she'll come around or she won't.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

knightRider said:


> Okay, agree to differ, my wife is a flirt, you think not. She's admitted it was wrong to talk the guy about tits at work. Yes, she is making a fool of me, that's why I'm not taking it. I'm not a *****. You are miss quoting a fair bit.


No, no one can make you anything. YOU are making a fool of you. 
Stop doing it. 
Be confident enough in yourself to brush it off. That is sexy, powerful, manly. The way you are acting is not. 
Sexy, powerful, manly men get respect and their wives don't go pushing boundaries _because _they love and respect their husbands. 
You're trying to force her to respect you by putting your foot down, being controlling, watching every move she makes but she will never respect you with this behavior. You will push her away until she stops caring at all and that is when she will really be vulnerable to have an affair.


----------



## knightRider

knobcreek said:


> I'm always shocked how vehemently and quickly people profess "she's disrespecting you man, divorce her, you'll be happy". Half his pay or more will be gone, his house, gone, he won't see his kids grow up, some other man will likely finish raising them in your house. It won't be all cake, and from what I can see after 8 months of recording her conversations he found one thing that I wouldn't have even of thought a big deal at all.
> 
> Maybe your wife is looking to bang the "old dude" but nothing you have now is any proof of that. I would say go to therapy, try lightening up a little so your wife doesn't feel like a prisoner, be a great husband, if she then fvcks the old co-worker then you leave and you've done all you can. As it stands now you're practically driving her into his arms with your behavior.


I don't think my boundaries are too tight. I live by them also.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

knightRider said:


> Being open. I don't get why women are so protective of it. Is not feminism strong enough?
> Anyway, let's not go off subject...


I sure wouldn't tell a husband who was acting like you my previous sex history. You're not safe with that information. It has nothing to do with feminism, it's just there's no way I'm giving someone more ammo to use against me and fight about and yes, put pins in the relationship. I too would tell you to F-off about it. 

You get openness by being safe, not by making her. Show her you can be trusted enough to not overreact or try to use little things to fight with her over and she'll open up as the trust grows.


----------



## knightRider

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> No, no one can make you anything. YOU are making a fool of you.
> Stop doing it.
> Be confident enough in yourself to brush it off. That is sexy, powerful, manly. The way you are acting is not.
> Sexy, powerful, manly men get respect and their wives don't go pushing boundaries _because _they love and respect their husbands.
> You're trying to force her to respect you by putting your foot down, being controlling, watching every move she makes but she will never respect you with this behavior. You will push her away until she stops caring at all and that is when she will really be vulnerable to have an affair.


Well it's obvious she does not love me. She's a flirt who's been caught. How can you justify her behavior?


----------



## tom67

You should be okay in that she works divorce wise but yes you have put up with this too long.


----------



## tom67

knightRider said:


> Well it's obvious she does not love me. She's a flirt who's been caught. How can you justify her behavior?


Ignore the feminazis.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

knightRider said:


> I don't think my boundaries are too tight. I live by them also.


No you don't. 
You don't show your wife what you write on TAM or other places on the internet.
You don't record yourself 24/7 and give it to her to listen to.
You don't tell her everything.


----------



## knightRider

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I sure wouldn't tell a husband who was acting like you my previous sex history. You're not safe with that information. It has nothing to do with feminism, it's just there's no way I'm giving someone more ammo to use against me and fight about and yes, put pins in the relationship. I too would tell you to F-off about it.
> 
> You get openness by being safe, not by making her. Show her you can be trusted enough to not overreact or try to use little things to fight with her over and she'll open up as the trust grows.


I'm totally open with her. This question came up before the flirting info...


----------



## knightRider

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> No you don't.
> You don't show your wife what you write on TAM or other places on the internet.
> You don't record yourself 24/7 and give it to her to listen to.
> You don't tell her everything.


Miss quoting again and not true.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

knightRider said:


> Miss quoting again and not true.


Well do you put a VAR on yourself and let her listen to it everyday? Will you? Do you show her everything you write here? Will you?

I do not think you can stay with this woman. It will be an endless cycle of you pushing her away and then trying to control her more the more she is pushed which will just make her go further. Your actions are going to cross the line into abusive controlling and you do not want to stoop that far. 

You can not be a healthy partner with her. You can not have a healthy and respectful marriage with her. 

Tame flirting sets you off, you need a woman who shares your views - and there are plenty, don't worry- but you can not make or force her to. Trying will make everything worse and lose what little respect and love you may have left.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

knightRider said:


> Anyway, let's not go off subject...


LOL, It is in your OP, it caused you to demand an apology and ignore her for however many days. It is on subject.

This response actually lends a little more credence to SGC's responses. I don't agree with everything she has stated, but it is WAAAAAAYYYY to late to demand your wife be open about her past partners. Unless, there is more to this snippy response, I now agree with your wife, regardless of her past behavior, you were trying to start an unnecessary fight.

This is the root of SGC calling you a controlling, paranoid and pushing away husband. No, I think she is partially projecting issues, but she has a point.


----------



## knightRider

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Well do you put a VAR on yourself and let her listen to it everyday? Will you? Do you show her everything you write here? Will you?
> 
> I do not think you can stay with this woman. It will be an endless cycle of you pushing her away and then trying to control her more the more she is pushed which will just make her go further. Your actions are going to cross the line into abusive controlling and you do not want to stoop that far.
> 
> You can not be a healthy partner with her. You can not have a healthy and respectful marriage with her.
> 
> Tame flirting sets you off, you need a woman who shares your views - and there are plenty, don't worry- but you can not make or force her to. Trying will make everything worse and lose what little respect and love you may have left.


Absolute bull. I don't care about her respect anymore, she does not deserve it. You miss quote badly, I did not VAR everyday, please stop making things up, it's rude.


----------



## knobcreek

You've created an environment where the option of not living with you as her overlord is likely not a threat to her at all, so I think you pulled the D card WAY TOO EARLY IMO.

You should've just gone off the radar a bit, ignored her attempts at intimacy, stopped obsessing over her, gone out and not tell her where out is. Show her you're capable of simply moving on without her and living a life without her, hit the gym, get some hobbies. If she's going to cross boundaries, you'll close the door the relationship and confidently move on, you won't stalk, go crazy, obsess, confront, demand respect, no one is going to go for that.

It's clear what you're doing is not working at all. It reminds me when I as in the Marines and a guy would get promoted to Corporal for instance and he used his rank all the time to try and gain respect and lead, but he was a joke, people laughed at him and he wasn't a leader. The guy who gets respect and leads never demands it, never insists upon it. People respect him and follow his lead because he's stable, steady, smart, and they trust his judgment.


----------



## ButtPunch

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Sexy, powerful, manly men get respect and their wives don't go pushing boundaries _because _they love and respect their husbands.


This simply isn't true. Sexy powerful manly men are cheated on all the time. 

Some women have poor boundaries. Some women will cheat because they want too. The OP needs to find someone he is
compatible with. His picker is bad and now he is trying for
10 months to shove a square peg in a round hole. 

Get a divorce already. She has shown you who she is. Believe her.


----------



## knightRider

phillybeffandswiss said:


> LOL, It is in your OP, it caused you to demand an apology and ignore her for however many days. It is on subject.
> 
> This response actually lends a little more credence to SGC's responses. I don't agree with everything she has stated, but it is WAAAAAAYYYY to late to demand your wife be open about her past partners. Unless, there is more to this snippy response, I now agree with your wife, regardless of her past behavior, you were trying to start an unnecessary fight.
> 
> This is the root of SGC calling you a controlling, paranoid and pushing away husband. No, I think she is partially projecting issues, but she has a point.


Haha, I was referring to feminism! And she swore at me


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

knightRider said:


> Absolute bull. I don't care about her respect anymore, she does not deserve it. You miss quote badly, I did not VAR everyday, please stop making things up, it's rude.


Then either leave or at least stop caring and spying until you do. 

If you don't care about her respect and don't think she deserves it then you shouldn't care what she is saying or doing at work and not expect her to think you deserve any respect either. 

Move on with your own life and leave as soon as you can. Staying and punishing her, spying, picking apart every word, demanding openness and respect is just petty and weak at this point. It is not best for the children or for either of you. 

And the point isn't if you VAR everyday or just some days for the past 10 months. You are not living under the same conditions you force on her.


----------



## ButtPunch

I dated a girl in college that liked to party and flirt.

I finally couldn't take it anymore.

I knew she wasn't marriage material.

Someone still married her. 

She's now divorced with 4 kids and three different dads. 

She isn't changing you need to.


----------



## knightRider

knobcreek said:


> You've created an environment where the option of not living with you as her overlord is likely not a threat to her at all, so I think you pulled the D card WAY TOO EARLY IMO.
> 
> You should've just gone off the radar a bit, ignored her attempts at intimacy, stopped obsessing over her, gone out and not tell her where out is. Show her you're capable of simply moving on without her and living a life without her, hit the gym, get some hobbies. If she's going to cross boundaries, you'll close the door the relationship and confidently move on, you won't stalk, go crazy, obsess, confront, demand respect, no one is going to go for that.
> 
> It's clear what you're doing is not working at all. It reminds me when I as in the Marines and a guy would get promoted to Corporal for instance and he used his rank all the time to try and gain respect and lead, but he was a joke, people laughed at him and he wasn't a leader. The guy who gets respect and leads never demands it, never insists upon it. People respect him and follow his lead because he's stable, steady, smart, and they trust his judgment.


I've never demanded respect.


----------



## ButtPunch

knightRider said:


> I've never demanded respect.


She will never be what you want.

Put the VAR away and get the da*n divorce. 

Sorry.


----------



## tom67

ButtPunch said:


> This simply isn't true. Sexy powerful manly men are cheated on all the time.
> 
> Some women have poor boundaries. Some women will cheat because they want too. The OP needs to find someone he is
> compatible with. His picker is bad and now he is trying for
> 10 months to shove a square peg in a round hole.
> 
> Get a divorce already. She has shown you who she is. Believe her.


:iagree::iagree:
Whether or not she has cheated doesn't matter she does not respect him at all.
Making fun of him to other men at work???
If it was the other way around some here would be all over him.


----------



## knightRider

ButtPunch said:


> She will never be what you want.
> 
> Sorry.


Agree, I reached that conclusion. People attacking me on here because my wife has shown massive red flags, I've put in place boundaries to protect the marriage, then I'm getting ridiculed over it.

Thanks to all the posters who were constructive.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

knightRider said:


> Haha, I was referring to feminism! And she swore at me


Yes and you still avoided my point.



> 1. On the weekend wife and I were talking about her previous job, she worked there before we were married. She mentioned that she dated a guy there, I asked her if she slept with him. She said no and then she flipped and told me to "fnck of" etc, saying that I was "putting pins" in our relationship.


Your marriage is in trouble, you hate her flirting and you demanded she stop talking to a guy coworker. Are you really shocked she cursed at you? Really?

Like I said earlier, time to go. She's a flirt and you want a woman who doesn't put herself in bad situations. Don't wait for the kids to get older, I can feel your resentment through the screen, I bet the kids do as well.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

knightRider said:


> And she swore at me


If swearing at you causes your ego to get so hurt that you punish her with a 2 day silent treatment (passive aggressive and unhealthy behavior) until she apologizes then you need to work on yourself right now or find a woman that shares your views. 

Your boundaries are just too tight for many people to put up with. 

You can not expect a woman to just conform to them because you said so. You need to find a woman who shares the same ones as you.


----------



## ButtPunch

knightRider said:


> Agree, I reached that conclusion. People attacking me on here because my wife has shown massive red flags, I've put in place boundaries to protect the marriage, then I'm getting ridiculed over it.
> 
> Thanks to all the posters who were constructive.


The only mistake you made was wanting your marriage to work so bad it clouded your judgment. Some people aren't marriage material.


----------



## knightRider

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes and you still avoided my point.
> 
> Your marriage is in trouble, you hate her flirting and you demanded she stop talking to a guy coworker. Are you really shocked she cursed at you? Really?


Stop talking to who, not the flirting chap. You're mixing history here..


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

tom67 said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> Whether or not she has cheated doesn't matter she does not respect him at all.
> Making fun of him to other men at work???
> If it was the other way around some here would be all over him.


I heard my H laughing with his AP- someone he was actually having sex with- that I was acting like I belonged on Jerry Springer. That I was crazy, nuts, stupid, pathetic. 

It hurt like hell, it was not respectful. 

The advice I am giving is what has worked for myself after a situation like that and I now have a pretty strong, happy and respectful marriage aside from a few bumps here and there. 
The affair is over, it re-committed my H to me where he does everything I need to be assured of that and he respects me because he feels respect, not because I force him to. 

If I could not let it go and move forward from it I would leave. There's no middle ground of sitting around being pissy. You stay and move forward or you leave.


----------



## tom67

ButtPunch said:


> The only mistake you made was wanting your marriage to work so bad it clouded your judgment. Some people aren't marriage material.


Let's get back to the basics...
Her not showing you the emails says it all.
Period.
But you just wouldn't "understand"


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I heard my H laughing with his AP- someone he was actually having sex with- that I was acting like I belonged on Jerry Springer. That I was crazy, nuts, stupid, pathetic.
> 
> It hurt like hell, it was not respectful.
> 
> The advice I am giving is what has worked for myself after a situation like that and I now have a pretty strong, happy and respectful marriage aside from a few bumps here and there.
> The affair is over, it re-committed my H to me where he does everything I need to be assured of that and he respects me because he feels respect, not because I force him to.
> 
> If I could not let it go and move forward from it I would leave. There's no middle ground of sitting around being pissy. You stay and move forward or you leave.


It is amazing that you were able to turn things around with your husband, SGC. I know I would not have been able to forgive what you have.


----------



## tom67

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I heard my H laughing with his AP- someone he was actually having sex with- that I was acting like I belonged on Jerry Springer. That I was crazy, nuts, stupid, pathetic.
> 
> It hurt like hell, it was not respectful.
> 
> The advice I am giving is what has worked for myself after a situation like that and I now have a pretty strong, happy and respectful marriage aside from a few bumps here and there.
> The affair is over, it re-committed my H to me where he does everything I need to be assured of that and he respects me because he feels respect, not because I force him to.
> 
> If I could not let it go and move forward from it I would leave. There's no middle ground of sitting around being pissy. You stay and move forward or you leave.


:iagree:
Your H recommitted.
His W is NOT committed.


----------



## jld

tom67 said:


> :iagree:
> Your H recommitted.
> His W is NOT committed.


Let's give her a chance, Tom. 

Knight rider, imagine finding your wife in a bar with another man, openly admitting they are having sex together. And then hearing her and him laughing that you are stupid, pathetic, crazy, and belong on a TV talk show.

Then imagine you take her hand and bring her out of the bar, and then home. And you, despite your pain, leading the way to reconciliation by watching Marriage Builders videos, reading books, and just generally showing patience and understanding until things stabilize and she recommits, because your kids are worth it.

It sounds like that is what SGC did. I could not do it. Could you? 

Does it not deserve our respect?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

tom67 said:


> :iagree:
> Your H recommitted.
> His W is NOT committed.


Yes, and if I acted like the OP was I would not have any respect or commitment either.

If he wants to leave I encourage that 100%. If he's planning on staying then my advice changes to earn her respect and try to actually work on things and move forward. 
I just don't believe in a middle ground of spying and pouting and forcing and fighting. No one benefits and all respect is lost, even for yourself.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Let's give her a chance, Tom.
> 
> Knight rider, imagine finding your wife in a bar with another man, openly admitting they are having sex together. And then hearing her and him laughing that you are stupid, pathetic, crazy, and belong on a TV talk show.
> 
> Then imagine you take her hand and bring her out of the bar, and then home. And you, despite your pain, leading the way to reconciliation by watching Marriage Builders videos, reading books, and just generally showing patience and understanding until things stabilize and she recommits, because your kids are worth it.
> 
> It sounds like that is what SGC did. I could not do it. Could you?
> 
> Does it not deserve our respect?


Good God! He's given her so many chances it has run him crazy.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Good God! He's given her so many chances it has run him crazy.


I don't think he wants to give up. And I don't think he needs to. We can work with him, and things can get better.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

knightRider said:


> Stop talking to who, not the flirting chap. You're mixing history here..


No, you are worked up right now and not carefully reading my post.




me said:


> Your marriage is in trouble





knightrider said:


> Point 1: *I have not spoken to her since she swore at me, that's 2 days now.* I told her that I will not speak to her without an apology.


Many more examples exist.



me said:


> you despise her flirting





knightrider said:


> She's a flirt who's been caught.





me said:


> you demanded she stop talking to a guy coworker.





knightrider said:


> Heared my wife talking to a work colleague. Painful to hear them talking about me and laughing at me. Felt betrayed that she would laugh at me with a colleague of opp sex.
> 
> Told my wife to choose between me and the colleague. After a few arguments over the last couple of days, she told me that she will leave her job and find work elsewhere. She will cut off all comms with the colleague.


 It is a summary of why your marriage is in trouble. Also, it was showing you why the prior sex question would flip her switch. She's under fire, rightly so, but with your own words it sounds like you were picking a fight in this instance.

I am saying you guys were sitting on a powder keg. Your question triggered her resentment and she cursed at you. You two will NEVER be compatible at this rate.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

jld said:


> Let's give her a chance, Tom.
> 
> Knight rider, imagine finding your wife in a bar with another man, openly admitting they are having sex together. And then hearing her and him laughing that you are stupid, pathetic, crazy, and belong on a TV talk show.
> 
> Then imagine you take her hand and bring her out of the bar, and then home. And you, despite your pain, leading the way to reconciliation by watching Marriage Builders videos, reading books, and just generally showing patience and understanding until things stabilize and she recommits, because your kids are worth it.
> 
> It sounds like that is what SGC did. I could not do it. Could you?
> 
> Does it not deserve our respect?


To be fair I first had a break down and tried the weak and demanding force act getting us locked in a battle of wills and losing all hope of love and moving forward. I know it doesn't work because I've BTDT.

Then I channeled my inner Elsa and "let it go" and took a deep breathe and said to myself "slowly, you're f-ing awesome. Who cares what he said. You want this marriage or not? You do? Great, let's get on that then"
Coming at it with a clear head, strong confidence and the ability to let it go while still being respectable enough that it just happens naturally saved us. 
But then I also committed the worst TAM sin by thinking to myself "what have I done, and what could I do differently from now on, to make my marriage affair proof?" And saw my own faults and reasons for the destruction that led to the PA and changed them, mostly, I have my bad days:wink2:


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> To be fair I first had a break down and tried the weak and demanding force act getting us locked in a battle of wills and losing all hope of love and moving forward. I know it doesn't work because I've BTDT.
> 
> Then I channeled my inner Elsa and "let it go" and took a deep breathe and said to myself "slowly, you're f-ing awesome. Who cares what he said. You want this marriage or not? You do? Great, let's get on that then"
> Coming at it with a clear head, strong confidence and the ability to let it go while still being respectable enough that it just happens naturally saved us.
> But then I also committed the worst TAM sin by thinking to myself "what have I done, and what could I do differently from now on, to make my marriage affair proof?" And saw my own faults and reasons for the destruction that led to the PA and changed them, mostly, I have my bad days:wink2:


Sweet girl, I could never do it, myself. But your kids are with their dad, in their home, without the possible complications of stepparents. I am sure that is worth a lot.


----------



## StilltheStudent

jld said:


> Let's give her a chance, Tom.
> 
> Knight rider, imagine finding your wife in a bar with another man, openly admitting they are having sex together. And then hearing her and him laughing that you are stupid, pathetic, crazy, and belong on a TV talk show.
> 
> Then imagine you take her hand and bring her out of the bar, and then home. And you, despite your pain, leading the way to reconciliation by watching Marriage Builders videos, reading books, and just generally showing patience and understanding until things stabilize and she recommits, because your kids are worth it.


I get that you are all about having the man being 100% responsible for things, but one question:

Where is his self-respect in all of this?

In your scenario you have the husband not only sacrifice his self-respect but also hold him responsible for rebuilding what the cheater broke.

I do not get it.

You always act like she is the prize, even when she is a disrespectful, lying, cheater, she is the prize and the man needs to sacrifice and lead and work to keep her.

Disrespectful women are not prizes. They are simply not worth it most of the time.

After reading this thread a few times I cannot see why Rider should still be married to this person.

Some people should just not be together; it is obvious from everything that this is true here.


----------



## knobcreek

jld said:


> Then imagine you take her hand and bring her out of the bar, and then home. And you, despite your pain, leading the way to reconciliation by watching Marriage Builders videos, reading books, and just generally showing patience and understanding until things stabilize and she recommits, because your kids are worth it.


As much as the OP is probably being unrealistic with his list of demands be met, this is the opposite side of the coin but just as unrealistic.

I think at the end of the day his wife has shown she really doesn't respect him or care very much about the marriage, how they got there really doesn't matter, it's likely irreconcilable at this point.


----------



## knightRider

StilltheStudent said:


> I get that you are all about having the man being 100% responsible for things, but one question:
> 
> Where is his self-respect in all of this?
> 
> In your scenario you have the husband not only sacrifice his self-respect but also hold him responsible for rebuilding what the cheater broke.
> 
> I do not get it.
> 
> You always act like she is the prize, even when she is a disrespectful, lying, cheater, she is the prize and the man needs to sacrifice and lead and work to keep her.
> 
> Disrespectful women are not prizes. They are simply not worth it most of the time.
> 
> After reading this thread a few times I cannot see why Rider should still be married to this person.
> 
> Some people should just not be together; it is obvious from everything that this is true here.


Yes, all true. I've given my all and she has shown me her colours. I'm here for the kids, don't care about her anymore. See what happens in councelling, last throw of the dice.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

jld said:


> Sweet girl, I could never do it, myself. But your kids are with their dad, in their home, without the possible complications of stepparents. I am sure that is worth a lot.


Yes, and I get all the appreciation, respect, time and love that I need now without having to ask for it. I am not worried about another affair and I feel good and confident. 

Other than our one little hiccup things are pretty amazing and it didn't take much to get here. But I had to change my attitude first.
I tried for years to do the "respect me and do what I am asking you to do damn it!!" and as you know it got me nowhere and eventually pushed him away. That was not self-respect. It was me being weak. 

My own self-respect now means I act in ways that are respectful and earn the respect I deserve naturally. I give his needs, I love, I respect in return. It's a positive cycle of love and respect that keeps growing and is mutual.

Had you told me I'd be here, in love with my H and respecting him again, a year ago I would have laughed at you. I was DONE and now I am in love and loved. 

If OP wants to fix things I would give my opinions based on what I think works best and it's _not _demands, spying and being sensitive. 

But I still think he should leave.


----------



## jld

StilltheStudent said:


> I get that you are all about having the man being 100% responsible for things, but one question:
> 
> Where is his self-respect in all of this?
> 
> In your scenario you have the husband not only sacrifice his self-respect but also hold him responsible for rebuilding what the cheater broke.
> 
> I do not get it.
> 
> You always act like she is the prize, even when she is a disrespectful, lying, cheater, she is the prize and the man needs to sacrifice and lead and work to keep her.
> 
> Disrespectful women are not prizes. They are simply not worth it most of the time.
> 
> After reading this thread a few times I cannot see why Rider should still be married to this person.
> 
> Some people should just not be together; it is obvious from everything that this is true here.


Self respect or pride?

Where was SGC's self respect (or pride)? Is that the important question?

Her children are in an intact family. What is that worth to knight rider?


----------



## jld

knobcreek said:


> As much as the OP is probably being unrealistic with his list of demands be met, this is the opposite side of the coin but just as unrealistic.
> 
> I think at the end of the day his wife has shown she really doesn't respect him or care very much about the marriage, how they got there really doesn't matter, it's likely irreconcilable at this point.


SGC did it. Why not knightrider?


----------



## StilltheStudent

knightRider said:


> Yes, all true. I've given my all and she has shown me her colours. I'm here for the kids, don't care about her anymore. See what happens in councelling, last throw of the dice.


While you two do not sound right for each other, you do have children.

That means you need to find a way to be at least amicable and work together as parents.

Counseling sounds like it might help to clear the air but I think you need to be clear about your goals here.

It sounds like you are past "Save My Marriage," and I am not going to try and pull you back from that. See what happens with some professional help (I think you both need it, honestly.

So you should be upfront with that and try to be partners at least.


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> Self respect or pride?
> 
> Where was SGC's self respect (or pride)? Is that the important question?
> 
> Her children are in an intact family. What is that worth to knight rider?


I'm willing to stay for the kids, but she will not be my "wife" anymore. Let's see what happens tonight at councelling. Will try and post updates later. Wish my luck peeps, I'm so tired and worn out.

On a brighter note, Stars Wars is out soon, "move away Han Solo" :smile2:


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> But I still think he should leave.


It may come to that, but I am hoping not. 

I think he could turn things around. I do not think it would be as hard as in your situation.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> SGC did it. Why not knightrider?


Everyone is not the same nor are their tolerances.


----------



## ButtPunch

SGC has a thread titled Should I divorce before the Holidays or after from October (last month).

Her situation is probably a little more unstable than you give it credit for.

Reconciliations take a few years to work thru.


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> I'm willing to stay for the kids, but she will not be my "wife" anymore. Let's see what happens tonight at councelling. Will try and post updates later. Wish my luck peeps, I'm so tired and worn out.
> 
> On a brighter note, Stars Wars is out soon, "move away Han Solo" :smile2:


I am crossing my fingers for you, knightrider. I think you have shown some openness in this thread. A counselor can work with that. I would like to work with that. I think all of us supporting you as well as challenging you could work with that, and help you rebuild your marriage.

I think you are more powerful than you realize.


----------



## StilltheStudent

jld said:


> Self respect or pride?


Self-Respect is a healthy pride in one's own honor and dignity.

Sacrificing that in order to maintain a relationship with someone who has already spat upon it is not strength.



jld said:


> Where was SGC's self respect (or pride)? Is that the important question?
> 
> Her children are in an intact family. What is that worth to knight rider?


I do not know SGC's details, just what she has mentioned here.

But I am of the general opinion that people who stay with cheating spouses are always sacrificing a part of themselves in order to keep the relationship together.

My wife and I have had this conversation before and we have had it with friends.

Cheating is the ultimate deal breaker for us and I lose immediate respect for cheaters (just recently cut someone out of our lives for that, it was immediate and absolute) and I question the self-respect of a person willing to "get over it."

I understand that cheating often results from a broken relationship and that both partners have some responsibility there…but once you cross that line you have elected to be the agent of change and need to accept that responsibility.

Cheaters, liars, and deceptive partners hold responsibility for fixing themselves, first.

In this case, for Rider, I think both partners are deceptive and that there is an understandable lack of trust.

There is no way a healthy romantic relationship comes out of this in my mind.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> SGC has a thread titled Should I divorce before the Holidays from October (last month).
> 
> Her situation is probably a little more unstable than you give it credit for.


I am indeed worried for you, hon. I have been for a long time. I think you know that.

But kids do benefit from a stable environment. Carla made some legit points in her post to you.

Men are the shortcut, imo. When a man decides things are going to get better, truly better, with his leading the way, they usually do. 

Men have great influence on women. A man's love and commitment to his wife, along with his openness, is the quickest, smoothest path to healing a marriage.

I bet your wife would be grateful to feel loved, truly loved, by you, knightrider.


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> I am crossing my fingers for you, knightrider. I think you have shown some openness in this thread. A counselor can work with that. I would like to work with that. I think all of us supporting you as well as challenging you could work with that, and help you rebuild your marriage.
> 
> I think you are more powerful than you realize.


thank you very much, jdl, brought a tear to my eye.


----------



## jld

StilltheStudent said:


> Self-Respect is a healthy pride in one's own honor and dignity.
> 
> Sacrificing that in order to maintain a relationship with someone who has already spat upon it is not strength.
> 
> 
> I do not know SGC's details, just what she has mentioned here.
> 
> But I am of the general opinion that people who stay with cheating spouses are always sacrificing a part of themselves in order to keep the relationship together.
> 
> My wife and I have had this conversation before and we have had it with friends.
> 
> Cheating is the ultimate deal breaker for us and I lose immediate respect for cheaters (just recently cut someone out of our lives for that, it was immediate and absolute) and I question the self-respect of a person willing to "get over it."
> 
> I understand that cheating often results from a broken relationship and that both partners have some responsibility there…but once you cross that line you have elected to be the agent of change and need to accept that responsibility.
> 
> Cheaters, liars, and deceptive partners hold responsibility for fixing themselves, first.
> 
> In this case, for Rider, I think both partners are deceptive and that there is an understandable lack of trust.
> 
> There is no way a healthy romantic relationship comes out of this in my mind.


I think humility, in love, makes all things possible.


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> thank you very much, jdl, brought a tear to my eye.


I meant it, knightrider. 

And now I have tears in both my eyes. 

And now down my cheeks!


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I bet your wife would be grateful to feel loved, truly loved, by you, knightrider.


I bet she would too until she got to work and GOT HER FLIRT ON.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> But kids do benefit from a stable environment.


Yes, but more and more studies are showing "stable environment" includes divorce when the parents are incompatible.


----------



## StilltheStudent

jld said:


> Men are the shortcut, imo. When a man decides things are going to get better, truly better, with his leading the way, they usually do.


Not in my experience.

In my experience plenty of women are capable of making their own decisions and resisting the influence of men.



jld said:


> Men have great influence on women. A man's love and commitment to his wife, along with his openness, is the quickest, smoothest path to healing a marriage.


You are not talking about commitment and openness, you are talking about surrendering self-respect and accepting _her_ failures, deceptions, and actions as his responsibility.

Your entire goal seems to be to shift all adult responsibility off of the women's shoulders and onto the man's.

That is not how healthy marriages work JLD.

Co-dependent ones? Sure.

But not healthy ones.



jld said:


> I bet your wife would be grateful to feel loved, truly loved, by you, knightrider.


And why does she deserve it?

Why is she the prize here?

Rider has one obligation; to create a partnership with his wife that will allow them to be respectful co-parents and provide some sense of stability for their children.

He neither needs to love or be married to their mother to accomplish that.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

StilltheStudent said:


> Not in my experience..


Please, go read her other posts in other threads. I'm not trying to be a mod or call you out. It has just become tiresome and leads to epic derails and soapboxing in threads.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ButtPunch said:


> SGC has a thread titled Should I divorce before the Holidays or after from October (last month).
> 
> Her situation is probably a little more unstable than you give it credit for.
> 
> Reconciliations take a few years to work thru.


That was me being rash, weak and hiding back into old habits. That had actually nothing at all to do with his A. It's my own negative black hole that likes to eat me up and drag me down. 

When I am back to myself I can see how silly I am being and not let the little bumps derail me to that point. But sometimes I need to stop, take that deep breath again, clear my mind and continue my progress. 

Like I said, I have bad days but everything but one issue is doing amazingly well. 
That's more than I can say for the OP. 


But besides that- 
The OP is well on his way to pushing her so far from him, losing so much respect and love that she does have an affair and then he can feel like he was right, "see, I knew this would happen!"

Or he could leave and realize that they are just not compatible. 

Or he could stay and make this work. 

IMO only the last 2 options are acceptable.


----------



## ButtPunch

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> That was me being rash, weak and hiding back into old habits. That had actually nothing at all to do with his A. It's my own negative black hole that likes to eat me up and drag me down.
> 
> When I am back to myself I can see how silly I am being and not let the little bumps derail me to that point. But sometimes I need to stop, take that deep breath again, clear my mind and continue my progress.
> 
> Like I said, I have bad days but everything but one issue is doing amazingly well.
> That's more than I can say for the OP.
> 
> 
> But besides that-
> The OP is well on his way to pushing her so far from him, losing so much respect and love that she does have an affair and then he can feel like he was right, "see, I knew this would happen!"
> 
> Or he could leave and realize that they are just not compatible.
> 
> Or he could stay and make this work.
> 
> IMO only the last 2 options are acceptable.


I am not belittling your accomplishments. I promise. I commend
you on your ability to clean up your side of the street. I reconciled my marriage over three years ago. It can be done. 

I do not believe all marriages can be reconciled and in it's current state the OP needs to accept that and get a divorce. Living like he has for the past 10 months would make anyone crazy. He should have ended it many months ago but I understand how hard that is with kids and everything.


----------



## norajane

End his marriage for what reason? His wife hasn't cheated, and he knows that because he's been spying on her for 10 months. 

Fomenting his paranoia is not doing him any good. He has two kids to think about. Getting professional help through MC and IC is a better route at this point, but he needs to stop spying on her or he's coming at this from a place of failure and dishonesty with her.


----------



## StilltheStudent

norajane said:


> End his marriage for what reason? His wife hasn't cheated, and he knows that because he's been spying on her for 10 months.
> 
> Fomenting his paranoia is not doing him any good. He has two kids to think about. Getting professional help through MC and IC is a better route at this point, but he needs to stop spying on her or he's coming at this from a place of failure and dishonesty with her.


There seems to be an utter lack of trust, respect, maturity, and affection here.

Classic vicious cycle: he does not trust her because she violates boundaries, he deceptively spies on her while she deceptively violates boundaries, she doesn't trust him, he doesn't trust her so he spies on her…

If we are going to be playing the "think of the children" game here, I would have to think a quick dissolution of this marriage and IC for both involved would be the best option.

Rider seems to have already made up his mind; it sucks but that is life.

He is not obligated to work on his marriage if he no longer thinks his wife is worth his time or trust.

Find a place where you can be good co-parents and work on yourself.

Because this situation, right now, is far from healthy for anyone involved.


----------



## turnera

I hope he DOES push her away. They don't belong together. He needs to find a woman with morals and she needs to find a man who's a swinger.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

turnera said:


> I hope he DOES push her away. They don't belong together. He needs to find a woman with morals and she needs to find a man who's a swinger.


Oh come on. _Kind of_ flirting with a co-worker does not make her a swinger or no morals. 

He has very tight boundaries and is very sensitive to even the smallest appearance of flirting (like "hey you") 

Some women are ok with that, if his wife was it would be fine 
But many women and men would not be ok with living in the way he wants. I wouldn't be. I would lose respect for him in a day with that kind of insecurity. 

His wife is not a moral-less, horrible person because she doesn't agree to live by his rules or respect him when be acts this way.

He can choose how he wants to live HIS life but not hers. 
If he isn't ok with her boundaries then he leaves.


----------



## ButtPunch

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> He can choose how he wants to live HIS life but not hers.
> If he isn't ok with her boundaries then he leaves.


And leave he should.


----------



## jld

I don't want him to leave. I want him to reach out in understanding to her. I want him to really listen and try to hear what is in her heart, past her angry words.

And my hope is that his genuinely listening and being gentle and compassionate with her will soften her and make her willing to listen to him, too.


----------



## ButtPunch

norajane said:


> End his marriage for what reason?


Because they are not compatible.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ButtPunch said:


> And leave he should.


He should, he should also recognize his own fault in this mess, his own limitations and insecurities and the fact that his boundaries are specific to him and needs someone who shares them (vs. thinking he can just set whatever he wants and make someone follow them) and not just think oh, she's a horrible person and I did everything I could but nothing worked. 

He'll end up having the same issues over and over again if he doesn't look at his own side of things. 

I don't see any good in patting him on the back and telling him he's in the right and she's obviously wrong when it's just not that simple and if he continues to act the way he is he'll have issues with anyone eventually. 

Silent treatments, spying, temper, prying into the past, not letting things go, not having confidence and being secure with himself so he's sensitive to even a small ego bump or flirting, and his need for such strict boundaries, respect, and 0 privacy for her while still wanting some of his own. 
These are things, IMO, on his own side that he needs to look at and have helped cause the mess he is in. 
This isn't just a 'she flirted so he should leave' problem.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

You can't follow this logic bomb STS. I warned you.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I went back and read some of his previous thread and after that is its clear to me that his wife has what I consider to be poor marital boundaries. I would not be ok with my hb turning down lunch with me because he liked hanging out with his female friends. That's what single people do.

I also think OP is getting crazy and throwing tantrums. ..... he's now giving her the silent treatment, emails hee that he wants a divorce, and is convinced that laughing equals flirting. He's coming unglued.

And I sense a bit of control issues with him, so when you combine that with a wife who has boundary issues you really do just get a couple who's incompatible. I don't see where she's cheated, she just has boundaries that are unacceptable to him. What would be interesting to me is how she'd react if he did the same thing to her..... that would tell him how she views her interactions. 

This marriage isn't going to work, but I do think OP would benefit from working on his issues. Silent treatment, tantrums, and almost a year of spying looking for anything that suggests she's having a nice time without him will not serve him well in the future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

lifeistooshort said:


> I went back and read some of his previous thread and after that is its clear to me that his wife has what I consider to be poor marital boundaries. I would not be ok with my hb turning down lunch with me because he liked hanging out with his female friends. That's what single people do.
> 
> I also think OP is getting crazy and throwing tantrums. ..... he's now giving her the silent treatment, emails hee that he wants a divorce, and is convinced that laughing equals flirting. He's coming unglued.


I disagree with a bit, but I'd be pedantic to hash it out. Good post.


----------



## turnera

OP, didn't you say you'd read No More Mr Nice Guy? I thought you had. If so, what did you learn from it? If not, I think it's probably time you read it.


----------



## JohnA

Hi lifeistoshort, 

Liked your last post but you missed one thing that triggered me. Not just the flirting with another man but her belittling of her husband to him. I understanding venting to a non-toxic girlfriend, not to another man


----------



## Omego

I guess the bottom line is that she's in the wrong. She knows he is sensitive about certain things she does, but she just keeps doing them. Not a good sign.

Maybe counseling can still turn things around....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Omego

JohnA said:


> Hi lifeistoshort,
> 
> Liked your last post but you missed one thing that triggered me. Not just the flirting with another man but her belittling of her husband to him. I understanding venting to a non-toxic girlfriend, not to another man


Good point. Imagine if OP did the same.... 

Maybe OP can suggest at counseling that his wife put herself in his shoes....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

JohnA said:


> Hi lifeistoshort,
> 
> Liked your last post but you missed one thing that triggered me. Not just the flirting with another man but her belittling of her husband to him. I understanding venting to a non-toxic girlfriend, not to another man


You're right, she shouldn't be talking to other men about her marriage issues. I've vented to a few girlfriends about my hb but the only time I ever spoke to a guy was once when I really wanted a guys perspective on my hb's oversharing regarding exes, and they told me it was in poor taste and they'd never talk to their wives like that. I say they because there were two of them on a lunchtime work run, not a one on one type thing. That was the extent of it.

I wonder if she has female friends? I'd bet not many, probably the type who claims to have more in common with men. In reality most of these women like male attention and prefer to be the only woman in the room, this was they don't have to compete with other women for attention.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jdawg2015

JohnA said:


> Hi lifeistoshort,
> 
> Liked your last post but you missed one thing that triggered me. Not just the flirting with another man but her belittling of her husband to him. I understanding venting to a non-toxic girlfriend, not to another man


JohnA, I don't think some people get this.

If I was to hear my partner laughing with and OSF at my expense it would tell me that my partner values that OSF friend more than me.

If I was a guy and having a mans wife share that kind of thing with me, it would be giving me signals that she values and respects me more than her husband.

There's some lines you don't cross.

A joke is one thing but based on what the OPs shared, how the wife wanted to hide emails because "he'd get the wrong idea" his wife really should be more understanding. Her lack of empathy is telling me she takes his presence for granted. 

AND, I think because she assumes he won't dump her, she gets a slight kick out of the jealously. 

So he can't reason with her, he can't sell the story anymore, he needs to act. He needs to say I've had enough and this is what I can accept. If they can't agree then part ways.

OP, has she been like this for a long time and any history from your dating and early days?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I missed one of your threads.

I have three questions if you'd please answer them:

1)What triggered you to start using the VAR again?

2)What triggered you to ask about the Ex boyfriend former coworker sex partner?

3)Did she ever get checked for hormonal issues due to PMS?








Calm down on #3 some of you, it was raised in another thread.


----------



## tom67

turnera said:


> OP, didn't you say you'd read No More Mr Nice Guy? I thought you had. If so, what did you learn from it? If not, I think it's probably time you read it.


:iagree::redcard:


----------



## knightRider

Wow peeps, wow. 

To re iterate, yes I am positive, yes I am confident, yes I have read and actioned No More Mr...
As said before VARing was recommended by valued members of this board, it has helped me. I am not a pleaser, I do not force my wife. I placed boundaries to react to her poor behaviour. She has broken them. I am now acting on info that I have received.

We went for counselling and it was very positive. There's something about talking to qualified person with your partner. The counselor thought that we could work things out and asked my wife to open up to me more. Appears that we have got caught into a cycle of mistrust that keeps going on. 

Talked to my wife in the morning and we agreed to work on it. She works in a male dominated industry and so is surrounded by men. This is no excuse of course, but she'll need to learn to reduce the "window" she opens in discussions with men. It may take some time but if she is willing to change then I should try also. 

She also admitted that she cannot handle criticism. Now this is the first time she has admitted it! So that's a good sign. If we can both see our mistakes, it may save the marriage. It's complicated but worth a try, if anything, for the kids sake.

Oh, I may sound I'm contradicting myself here, but it's been an emotional roller and I'm trying to save this.


----------



## knightRider

Oh and thank you everyone for the comments, good and bad, it's helped me evaluate the relationship...


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> Wow peeps, wow.
> 
> To re iterate, yes I am positive, yes I am confident, yes I have read and actioned No More Mr...
> As said before VARing was recommended by valued members of this board, it has helped me. I am not a pleaser, I do not force my wife. I placed boundaries to react to her poor behaviour. She has broken them. I am now acting on info that I have received.
> 
> We went for counselling and it was very positive. There's something about talking to qualified person with your partner.* The counselor thought that we could work things out *and asked my wife to open up to me more. Appears that we have got caught into a cycle of mistrust that keeps going on.
> 
> Talked to my wife in the morning and we agreed to work on it. She works in a male dominated industry and so is surrounded by men. This is no excuse of course, but she'll need to learn to reduce the "window" she opens in discussions with men. It may take some time but if she is willing to change then I should try also.
> 
> She also admitted that she cannot handle criticism. Now this is the first time she has admitted it! So that's a good sign.* If we can both see our mistakes, it may save the marriage.* It's complicated but worth a try, if anything, for the kids sake.
> 
> Oh, I may sound I'm contradicting myself here, but it's been an emotional roller and I'm trying to save this.


I agree with the bolded. So happy you have started counseling!

I think humility is key in resolving marital conflict. I am not sure how marriages can thrive without it, tbh.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I work in a male dominated field too, especially my department and I don't go to lunch regularly with any of them and certainly don't trash my hb.

Any mention of him is within the context of "hb likes sports" or "hb does this for work", just like discussion of wives. There is no trash talking spouses.
I used to work with a guy who trash talked his wife and everyone thought he was a jerk.

I do have two women that joined and they are good friends. .... I've worked with both of them before. We vent to each other sometimes.

BUT.....male dominated field combined with woman who likes lots of male attention is a bad combination. And I can guarantee that if she's that type most of them don't take her seriously at work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

knightRider said:


> Oh, I may sound I'm contradicting myself here, but it's been an emotional roller and I'm trying to save this.


Are you able to stop the snooping, accusing and let the past go? 

Sometimes things get so bad you just need to both drop all the past and start today like it's day 1 and go from there and the first thing on the list is to fall in love. 

Just put your worries and resentments aside and take things one step at a time. Accusing, lack of trust, criticism, anger- all these are her love busters so avoid them at all costs. Put your focus on positive change and not negative. Have you read through marriage builders? I think it's one that would really help you. 

IMO the single best defense against affairs is not boundaries, spying, putting your foot down. It's love. Real, passionate, love. 
So put your efforts into the positive changes of building love and not the negative, love busting actions of trying to catch or prevent it. "Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy" my H sings this to me when he can see my head trying to sabotage me. 

Some things that really helped me with that was spending at least 15 hours a week together alone doing something together. He recommends more than that at the start. 
Is there some small projects you can work on together? Date nights, talking and cuddling on the couch. Be together like you were when you first met. 

Touching- not a single day goes by where me and H do not touch and kiss. Take every moment you can to be intimate. You or her walk through the door? Big hug and kiss. You or her are leaving somewhere? Big hug and kiss. Shower together, snuggle while watching your shows instead of being on opposite ends of the couch. Reach over in the car and put your hand on her thigh. 
Just touch, even if it's a bad day.
Oh and gross out your kids by making out in the kitchen. They'll "ewwwwww" at you but will learn passion and intimate love at the same time. My kids are absolutely disgusted by us at this point, it's wonderful :wink2:

Emotional needs- that one is pretty obvious. What are hers? Meet them consistently and without expectation. 

And stop all love busting behavior. If you're feeling upset, angry and need to vent, get a journal. That's what I did and it worked. I'd write it all down, I'd go for a powerwalk with some loud music going. Just keep it and the negativity away from your marriage and wife. I slip on this one as negativity has always been an issue for me and it sure does make a difference- in a bad way- when I do. Keep it away and things are 100% better for both of us. 

Eventually, and it doesn't take long, you are in a positive cycle of giving and getting and from there the love just keeps growing. I am more in love with my H and respect him more now than I ever have been before. Including the beginning. 

1 year ago me and H were both at the point where we were done. He ended up having a PA, I was dreaming about being single and finding someone better. I hated him if I'm being honest, I had no respect, sometimes just seeing him made me sick to my stomach with rage and resentment 

I'm probably sounding like an infomercial right now, try it, it really works! But it freaken does. I wouldn't have believed me either but just do it. Do it constantly for 6 months.
That's where I am, 6 months, and then you can tell me if I am wrong or right :smile2:

ETA- I wanted to add that if I was told to meet my H's emotional needs 1 year ago I would have lost my mind. I was already doing ALL the work, everything. He did nothing to meet me halfway and I'm supposed to do more? How dare you! He's the one in the wrong, he should do the damn work. 

But it's a combination of no love busting, love building, meeting needs because you love your spouse and not because you're wanting things in return, positive moods... It has to be all together. You can't just do a part of it.


----------



## knightRider

thanks, Slowly.

I'll check marriage builders. Is that a book or website?

Yes, we do spent time together, dates, small holidays etc. 
I think it's from last September where her career changed, she got promoted, that things started to change. Unfortunately there are some companies where there is a culture to network, after work in "evocative" environments. Going for 1 to 1 meals with the OS sex in a romantic environment is not something I agree with. Add alcohol, 1 to 1, late night and bingo, things can get out of hand fast. It's great that women are climbing the corporate ladder, only thing is the "old boy" culture has not changed. Work should be conducted at work, otherwise you are opening a situation where harassment can occur.

I'll try and work on this and see where we go. I do not like my wife "bonding" with men. Yes, be courteous, have small talk, but there is no need to talk about really personal stuff and things that I have never heard of before. There's loads of stuff on this on the net. Think she has boundary issues she needs to work on. 

Also in her industry, there a quite a few "player" types, so I'm aware that guys will try and ask her for an evening meal on the pretext of work.


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> IMO the single best defense against affairs is not boundaries, spying, putting your foot down. It's love. Real, passionate, love.
> 
> So put your efforts into the positive changes of building love and not the negative, love busting actions of trying to catch or prevent it.


This is great, SGC. Wise counsel.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

It's both. Book, website, seminars, videos, phone counseling. Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice

1 year ago had I been in a room with another man I likely would have slept with him.
Now I would never want to hurt my husband like that, do something so stupid, and I focus on making my grass as green as it can be vs. checking out other lawns- when I don't let my wheels spin. This is my downfall and it seems like it's yours too. It's hard to shut it off and let it go. 

Yes, you should go with her for events and no 1 on 1 date type activities but right now focus on positive, not negative. 

You're building love, the natural outcome of this is that your boundaries will be more in line. The more in love I am, the more committed I am to making sure there isn't anything that would disrespect him or show I was not being perfectly faithful and his alone. The more open I want to be with him. 

ETA- He is the same, he no longer goes out without me because he wants me with him. I don't have to ask, demand or put my foot down. It's just natural. Before it'd be a big fight about him going out. Now it's not an issue at all. 

Don't worry right now on getting the outcome before the steps to get there. Fall back in love is your first step. The rest comes more naturally after that.

The 15 hours a week has to be every week BTW. Not just special occasions.


----------



## bandit.45

Is she making more income than you are?

It makes a difference. If she is, you better get a better paying job or else.


----------



## knightRider

bandit.45 said:


> Is she making more income than you are?
> 
> It makes a difference. If she is, you better get a better paying job or else.


Yes, she earns about £10K more than me, not a whole load. Is it really always down to the $ ?


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> Yes, she earns about £10K more than me, not a whole load. Is it really always down to the $ ?


No.


----------



## bandit.45

knightRider said:


> Yes, she earns about £10K more than me, not a whole load. Is it really always down to the $ ?


Doesn't matter. If she makes more money than you, she has lost respect for you. 

The femnazis on TAM will tell you I'm full of it, but 10,000 years of social programming has conditioned female humans to seek a man who will support them and care for them. When she makes more than you, you lose your desirability. She no longer sees you as her equal. You are a liability to her, so her conditioning will tend to lead her to find a man who is of equal or greater economic standing than her. It is all subliminal. She does not even kno what is driving her to act this way. 

Ask any SAHD on this website. To a man they have wives who are either disrespectful towards them, take them for granted, or are actively cheating. I guarantee you if you get her pregnant, she will demand you quit your job and stay at home and be Mr. Mom for her, since she makes more money than you. You think it's bad now? It will be a literal hell on earth if you let it go that far. 

But the income disparity is the root of her recent bad behavior. This is probably what is happening. The dynamic of your relationship has become even more unbalanced than it was. Couple this imbalance with her crap boundaries and the fact that she does not share the same values as you, and you have a perfect storm brewing.


----------



## knightRider

bandit.45

not sure that I agree with all that. Surely there are cases of many happily married couples where the woman earns more? Anyway, 10K UK sterling is not a lot nowadays.


----------



## bandit.45

knightRider said:


> bandit.45
> 
> not sure that I agree with all that. Surely there are cases of many happily married couples where the woman earns more? Anyway, 10K UK sterling is not a lot nowadays.


Very few that I have seen. TAM has had many many stories from guys who have lost their wive's respect due to income disparity. 

To your wife it could be 5 quid or £50,000. The amount doesn't matter. In her mind she has the clout. 

I know my opinion is not a popular one, but I stand by it.


----------



## knightRider

bandit.45 said:


> Very few that I have seen. TAM has had many many stories from guys who have lost their wive's respect due to income disparity.
> 
> To your wife it could be 5 quid or £50,000. The amount doesn't matter. In her mind she has the clout.
> 
> I know my opinion is not a popular one, but I stand by it.


Worth considering, chap.


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> bandit.45
> 
> not sure that I agree with all that. Surely there are cases of many happily married couples where the woman earns more? Anyway, 10K UK sterling is not a lot nowadays.


 @Personal 

Your wife makes more than you, and yet your marriage is happy, correct?


----------



## lifeistooshort

bandit.45 said:


> Is she making more income than you are?
> 
> It makes a difference. If she is, you better get a better paying job or else.


Why? I make about 50% more than hb and it matters not to me.

I think it's because I see him as a real man who handles stuff..... I'm just a nerd who fell into a high paying field.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## knightRider

lifeistooshort said:


> Why? I make about 50% more than hb and it matters not to me.
> 
> I think it's because I see him as a real man who handles stuff..... I'm just a nerd who fell into a high paying field.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What kind of work out of interest? I'm a software engineer.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

First off - "femnazi" is incredibly insulting. It discredits anything you have to say and just makes what you say sound like you're a mad boy.

Secondly- Money difference doesn't matter when you are in love and respect your partner. 
My H is currently having difficulties job-wise and I am making a lot more than he is, it isn't even a blimp on my radar because of the other work we are doing. 
If we hadn't done that work and I didn't love and respect him then it might have had a higher importance but money itself isn't the issue it's just something to blame and focus on. 

Build enough love in your love banks and the little things don't make enough of a dent to make any kind of difference. Have an empty one and any little buster can throw you.
Like an actual bank. If you got thousands in there, going out for a lunch isn't going to matter. If you have $20 left until the end of the month and you blow it on crap, that matters a lot.


----------



## lifeistooshort

knightRider said:


> What kind of work out of interest? I'm a software engineer.


I'm an actuary with a BS in physics.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## knightRider

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm an actuary with a BS in physics.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow, nice! - I did Computer Science, so geek in kind :grin2:


----------



## bandit.45

I stand by what I said. I expect people to disagree.


----------



## bandit.45

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> First off - "femnazi" is incredibly insulting. It discredits anything you have to say and just makes what you say sound like you're a mad boy.
> 
> Secondly- Money difference doesn't matter when you are in love and respect your partner.
> My H is currently having difficulties job-wise and I am making a lot more than he is, it isn't even a blimp on my radar because of the other work we are doing.
> If we hadn't done that work and I didn't love and respect him then it might have had a higher importance but money itself isn't the issue it's just something to blame and focus on.
> 
> Build enough love in your love banks and the little things don't make enough of a dent to make any kind of difference. Have an empty one and any little buster can throw you.
> Like an actual bank. If you got thousands in there, going out for a lunch isn't going to matter. If you have $20 left until the end of the month and you blow it on crap, that matters a lot.


Why does it insult you? Why would you be insulted by something a stranger says?


----------



## lifeistooshort

knightRider said:


> Wow, nice! - I did Computer Science, so geek in kind :grin2:


Nice 

I love physics.....i used to think I'd either get my PhD in astro and work for SETI or get my PhD in quantum and do research at Cern.

Oh well, another life maybe. Actuary work is pretty cool.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## knightRider

lifeistooshort said:


> Nice
> 
> I love physics.....i used to think I'd either get my PhD in astro and work for SETI or get my PhD in quantum and do research at Cern.
> 
> Oh well, another life maybe. Actuary work is pretty cool.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I heard that the pay is really good and an in demand job...

Now, what is harder, Maths or Physics? :surprise:


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

bandit.45 said:


> Why does it insult you? Why would you be insulted by something a stranger says?


Just like when people use racist words, or the r word, it upsets me and makes me think less of that person as a whole. 
Does someone using the r word affect me in an "insulted by a stranger" way? Not so much but it's insulting, rude and shows a lack of character and maturity. 
From then on, nothing they say has much value to me. 

IMO- it should be banned on this forum but I can live with it and roll my eyes when it's used but it does make me think twice before I would consider reading that poster any more.


----------



## jld

What does the term mean to you, bandit?

Actually, I will start a thread on this. Sorry for the t/j, knight rider! Back to you!


----------



## bandit.45

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Just like when people use racist words, or the r word, it upsets me and makes me think less of that person as a whole.
> Does someone using the r word affect me in an "insulted by a stranger" way? Not so much but it's insulting, rude and shows a lack of character and maturity.
> From then on, nothing they say has much value to me.
> 
> IMO- it should be banned on this forum but I can live with it and roll my eyes when it's used but it does make me think twice before I would consider reading that poster any more.


Just like I think some feminists here on TAM go over the line blaming all that is wrong in the world on men. I find it insulting when such women veil their mysandrous comments in platitudes to make their crass opinions more palatable. It is insidious and ultimately disengenuous. 

I speak my mind, and I will continue to do so. I don't believe in censorship. If someone wants to take me on....fine. If someone wants to question what I say then all the better. 

Just hit the ignore Bandit.45 button and you won't have to read the things I write. Easy peezy.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> What does the term mean to you, bandit?
> 
> Actually, I will start a thread on this. Sorry for the t/j, knight rider! Back to you!


No.... What does it mean to YOU?


----------



## jld

I think I may need permission from a mod to start that thread, though. I will ask.


----------



## bandit.45

Are you ladies really angry that I used a provocative word, or because I came out with a position that makes you uncomfortable?

I think it is just swell that some of you ladies are fine making more money than your husbands, but none of you are dysfunctional like the OP's wife, or at least you don't seem to be. In his case there is an inherent inequality in the marriage, and I think that her making more income than him has made a huge impact given the problems they are already suffering.


----------



## jld

What type of work does your wife do, knightrider?


----------



## knightRider

bandit.45 said:


> Are you ladies really angry that I used a provocative word, or because I came out with a position that makes you uncomfortable?
> 
> I think it is just swell that some of you ladies are fine making more money than your husbands, but none of you are dysfunctional like the OP's wife, or at least you don't seem to be. In his case there is an inherent inequality in the marriage, and I think that her making more income than him has made a huge impact given the problems they are already suffering.


bandit, 

I don't think so. Been with her for 18 years and our wages have varied over the years. 

Think the problems started as she got promoted to a senior level and men were asking to meet her to "network". Now bull to that if I'd stay and watch my wife be dined by a city dude trying it on....

Prior to that things seemed to be okay. Alarm bells rang for me and I started to look closely at the relationship. Maybe all this is actually good for me in the long run.


----------



## lifeistooshort

knightRider said:


> Yes, I heard that the pay is really good and an in demand job...
> 
> Now, what is harder, Maths or Physics? :surprise:



Physics, without a doubt. It involves all of the math plus physics.

I had to take almost all of the math involved in a math degree and then an extra math class to get ready for quantum physics, because you can't learn the math and physics together. Well you can but it's hard. 

I didn't have to take statistics but still had to use it in quantum, because study of particles you can't see involves a lot of statistics. 

There are things in math you learn but you don't know what they're for until you study physics or engineering.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

bandit.45 said:


> Are you ladies really angry that I used a provocative word, or because I came out with a position that makes you uncomfortable?
> 
> I think it is just swell that some of you ladies are fine making more money than your husbands, but none of you are dysfunctional like the OP's wife, or at least you don't seem to be. In his case there is an inherent inequality in the marriage, and I think that her making more income than him has made a huge impact given the problems they are already suffering.


Honestly bandit, it's the word. I just don't like it. To me it's the same as using a word like r*tard, f*g- you get my point. 

Have whatever opinion you want to and I'll respect the fact that we all have one and I might disagree but it's not a big deal. 

Use a word like that and it's just any chance of respecting your views or caring what you say is just right out the window.

But I'm sorry and also don't want to hijack. If a new thread is started I will continue my thoughts there 

FTR- I was dysfunctional, and rude and disrespectful and spiteful and mad. If it hurt my H? Oh well, he probably deserved it anyway. If I was making more than him it would have just been another thing on my list of crap that annoyed me - that was where I was a year ago. 
Now I feel and tell him almost daily how amazing he is, how much I love him, miss him when we are not together. This morning we were just lovey and sweet and the kind of couple that if other people were there they would be sick and annoyed and tell us to get a d*mn room. 

You'd be amazed the differences that building love, positive growth and love banks is. Really. I get that I sound off in la-la rainbow land because I can get so jaded and negative that it all just sounds like BS but I strongly believe that if he focuses on love and not worries about the little things right now it will be better in the long run.


----------



## ButtPunch

Sorry to say but Bandit is right. 

TAM is riddled with SAHD stories in the CWI section. While nothing is 100%, I do believe a disproportionate number of these type marriages are represented in CWI.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> What type of work does your wife do, knightrider?


We work in the same industry, Finance and IT. Thing is it's full of flirty types and some of the men will try it on all the time...So you can understand my need to understand what goes on in my wife's case as Red flags were up a plenty this year. I had to do something. 

You good people here, although some fiery comments at times, have really helped.


----------



## knightRider

lifeistooshort said:


> Physics, without a doubt. It involves all of the math plus physics.
> 
> I had to take almost all of the math involved in a math degree and then an extra math class to get ready for quantum physics, because you can't learn the math and physics together. Well you can but it's hard.
> 
> I didn't have to take statistics but still had to use it in quantum, because study of particles you can't see involves a lot of statistics.
> 
> There are things in math you learn but you don't know what they're for until you study physics or engineering.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Funny that. When I ask Math graduates, they say Math is harder


----------



## jld

lifeistooshort said:


> Physics, without a doubt. It involves all of the math plus physics.
> 
> I had to take almost all of the math involved in a math degree and then an extra math class to get ready for quantum physics, because you can't learn the math and physics together. Well you can but it's hard.
> 
> I didn't have to take statistics but still had to use it in quantum, because study of particles you can't see involves a lot of statistics.
> 
> There are things in math you learn but you don't know what they're for until you study physics or engineering.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I already had a ton of respect for you, life, but now I have even more. Hats off!


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> We work in the same industry, Finance and IT. Thing is it's full of flirty types and some of the men will try it on all the time...So you can understand my need to understand what goes on in my wife's case as Red flags were up a plenty this year. I had to do something.
> 
> You good people here, although some fiery comments at times, have really helped.


We do our best! 

I think your counselor is going to do a lot to help you feel safer, knight rider. Again, so glad you took the initiative to start counseling.


----------



## bandit.45

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Honestly bandit, it's the word. I just don't like it. To me it's the same as using a word like r*tard, f*g- you get my point.
> 
> Have whatever opinion you want to and I'll respect the fact that we all have one and I might disagree but it's not a big deal.
> 
> Use a word like that and it's just any chance of respecting your views or caring what you say is just right out the window.
> 
> But I'm sorry and also don't want to hijack. If a new thread is started I will continue my thoughts there
> 
> FTR- I was dysfunctional, and rude and disrespectful and spiteful and mad. If it hurt my H? Oh well, he probably deserved it anyway. If I was making more than him it would have just been another thing on my list of crap that annoyed me - that was where I was a year ago.
> Now I feel and tell him almost daily how amazing he is, how much I love him, miss him when we are not together. This morning we were just lovey and sweet and the kind of couple that if other people were there they would be sick and annoyed and tell us to get a d*mn room.
> 
> You'd be amazed the differences that building love, positive growth and love banks is. Really. I get that I sound off in la-la rainbow land because I can get so jaded and negative that it all just sounds like BS but I strongly believe that if he focuses on love and not worries about the little things right now it will be better in the long run.


I choose my words very carefully. I want my words to impact people. 

Would it surprise you to know I agree with most of what you are saying? Not all, but most. 

Your situation is not the OP's situation. In his situation, he is married tam woman who, on a fundamental level, shares none of his values. The foundation of their marriage was built on sand. 




P.S. 

I stopped worrying about what people thought of me long, long ago. I'm old fashioned, stubborn and I'm a proud chauvinist who loves women but refuses to be politically correct or kiss anyone's azz just to
try to make them like me. I'm just not built that way. Sorry. It is who I am, just like I would never ask you or jld to change who you are.


----------



## turnera

I think that any message can be conveyed without using the C word. There is no point to it, other than to hurt.

As a professor once told me, if you can't say what you want to say correctly and without harm, you're just being lazy. (not you, Bandit)


----------



## bandit.45

turnera said:


> I think that any message can be conveyed without using the C word. There is no point to it, other than to hurt.
> 
> As a professor once told me, if you can't say what you want to say correctly and without harm, you're just being lazy. (not you, Bandit)


Oh...I get lazy at times....


----------



## lifeistooshort

knightRider said:


> Funny that. When I ask Math graduates, they say Math is harder


Except that they don't know because they haven't taken any physics except for hokey phys I and II that all non liberal arts majors take. That's like me deciding what's involved in a math degree based on algebra.

Physics majors take almost all of their classes. So we have a basis on which to make that judgement. .... they don't. 

Everyone knows that physics is the grandaddy. .... even my friends at work with graduate statistics degrees do a double take when they hear physics.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

jld said:


> I already had a ton of respect for you, life, but now I have even more. Hats off!


Aww, you flatter me jld 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## knightRider

lifeistooshort said:


> Except that they don't know because they haven't taken any physics except for hokey phys I and II that all non liberal arts majors take. That's like me deciding what's involved in a math degree based on algebra.
> 
> Physics majors take almost all of their classes. So we have a basis on which to make that judgement. .... they don't.
> 
> Everyone knows that physics is the grandaddy. .... even my friends at work with graduate statistics degrees do a double take when they hear physics.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Where do you rank Financial Engineering and modelling, that stuff and get really abstract and hairy? :nerd:


----------



## lifeistooshort

knightRider said:


> Where do you rank Financial Engineering and modelling, that stuff and get really abstract and hairy? :nerd:


It's tough, you don't have to tell me. I passed the actuary exam on financial modeling.

Stock prices are lognormal, stock returns are normal. 

What's the prices of this crazy derivative option? 

I'd rather forget. 

It's up there. Everyone that completes degrees like math, computer science, economics, engineering, etc is a smart cookie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## knightRider

lifeistooshort said:


> It's tough, you don't have to tell me. I passed the actuary exam on financial modeling.
> 
> It's up there. Everyone that completes degrees like math, computer science, economics, engineering, etc is a smart cookie.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yea but boy have I forgotten half of my stuff. Graduated in 1995 :x


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I told you we have a huge gender problem on TAM right now.


Two things to remember in counseling:
1) Listen carefully.
2) Don't take blame or compromise on things which aren't your fault.

I am not talking communication issues or such, I'm talking about some of the false equivocation that has occurred in this thread.


Anyway, good luck.


----------



## NotLikeYou

knightRider said:


> wow, who said I was pleasing her?
> I am confident in myself. She flirts, I don't like it, simple. I'm not trying to control her, I just don't want to be made a fool. I have set boundaries, they have been broken. I have been reading many books on the subject.
> 
> Let's see how councelling goes. I'm not holding much hope, but will live until the kids are old enough. Right now, I can't trust her, nothing to do with control.


Ahem.

There's just a whole lot of wrong, here.

You're continuing to pay her bills, live with her, and provide all the helpful services that a spouse provides. I have to think that this pleases your wife immensely.

You are confident in yourself? Really? If you're feeling confident of yourself after you have been VAR'ing your wife for 10 months, then I have to think you don't have a very good understanding of the word.

A confident person isn't continually worried about being made a fool of. First, because it's a rare occurrence in and of itself, and second, because no one is going to make a fool of them twice. 

A confident person WILL set boundaries. They won't tolerate those boundaries being broken repeatedly, as you do. And the response of a confident person will not be to go read a few books.......

A confident person will not make empty threats of divorce.

Why do I say empty?

Because a confident person will not squawk "divorce," and agree to give counselling a try less than 24 hours later.

A confident person will not plan on living under the same roof until the kids go out, years in the future.

Right now, you can't trust her, but it has EVERYTHING to do with control.

You have none.


So the first thing to do is change that last bit. I recommend Individual Counseling to help you step back from things, here.

Couples Counseling is a waste of time, right now- your wife isn't going to stop the behaviors that you find objectionable, so you should work on yourself, and get to a place where you don't care that your wife A) works with OTHER MEN and B) talks to them, too.

In the mean time, focus on your children and spending time with them. Exercise. Eat well. Reconnect with old friends. Make some new ones. Find some hobbies to drink up some of the time you spend listening to recordings of your wife talking to other people.


P.S. If you absolutely, positively just HAVE to VAR your partner, you should never, ever 'fess up to it. It makes a person look really weak, pathetic, and untrusting, and generally, you don't want to cast yourself in that light to your partner.


----------



## knightRider

NotLikeYou said:


> Ahem.
> 
> There's just a whole lot of wrong, here.
> 
> You're continuing to pay her bills, live with her, and provide all the helpful services that a spouse provides. I have to think that this pleases your wife immensely.
> 
> You are confident in yourself? Really? If you're feeling confident of yourself after you have been VAR'ing your wife for 10 months, then I have to think you don't have a very good understanding of the word.
> 
> A confident person isn't continually worried about being made a fool of. First, because it's a rare occurrence in and of itself, and second, because no one is going to make a fool of them twice.
> 
> A confident person WILL set boundaries. They won't tolerate those boundaries being broken repeatedly, as you do. And the response of a confident person will not be to go read a few books.......
> 
> A confident person will not make empty threats of divorce.
> 
> Why do I say empty?
> 
> Because a confident person will not squawk "divorce," and agree to give counselling a try less than 24 hours later.
> 
> A confident person will not plan on living under the same roof until the kids go out, years in the future.
> 
> Right now, you can't trust her, but it has EVERYTHING to do with control.
> 
> You have none.
> 
> 
> So the first thing to do is change that last bit. I recommend Individual Counseling to help you step back from things, here.
> 
> Couples Counseling is a waste of time, right now- your wife isn't going to stop the behaviors that you find objectionable, so you should work on yourself, and get to a place where you don't care that your wife A) works with OTHER MEN and B) talks to them, too.
> 
> In the mean time, focus on your children and spending time with them. Exercise. Eat well. Reconnect with old friends. Make some new ones. Find some hobbies to drink up some of the time you spend listening to recordings of your wife talking to other people.
> 
> 
> P.S. If you absolutely, positively just HAVE to VAR your partner, you should never, ever 'fess up to it. It makes a person look really weak, pathetic, and untrusting, and generally, you don't want to cast yourself in that light to your partner.


We share living costs.

what's VAring got to do with confidence, it's a tool to verify?

No one has made a fool of me twice.

My divorce threats are not empty. I'm trying to make it work for my kids. Disagree about the kid issue. Being a father to children growing up is the best thing I can do. 

I don't want control, where did you get that from. I control myself.

Are you a psychiatrist?


----------



## knightRider

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I told you we have a huge gender problem on TAM right now.
> 
> 
> Two things to remember in counseling:
> 1) Listen carefully.
> 2) Don't take blame or compromise on things which aren't your fault.
> 
> I am not talking communication issues or such, I'm talking about some of the false equivocation that has occurred in this thread.
> 
> 
> Anyway, good luck.


Thanks, I'm not taking blame for non fault. I'm trying to better myself.


----------



## lifeistooshort

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I told you we have a huge gender problem on TAM right now.
> 
> 
> Two things to remember in counseling:
> 1) Listen carefully.
> 2) Don't take blame or compromise on things which aren't your fault.
> 
> I am not talking communication issues or such, I'm talking about some of the false equivocation that has occurred in this thread.
> 
> 
> Anyway, good luck.


Interesting, I didn't realize that women voicing dissenting opinions constituted a gender problem. Particularly since TAM has a lot more men. 

Although we're often told that not only can we not speak for men (fair enough) but we can't speak for women either because us silly womens don't know what we want. .... we need men to tell us.

I think my posts have been fairly even handed.

Or did I misunderstand your post?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

I think he is saying women won't give women the same advice as they give men even if they are in the same exact situation. 

I believe that is what Philly is referring to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> I think he is saying women won't give women the same advice as they give men even if they are in the same exact situation.
> 
> I believe that is what Philly is referring to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Different vulnerabilities.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Different vulnerabilities.


I see it differently and don't believe in blanket stereotypes for gender.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> I see it differently and don't believe in blanket stereotypes for gender.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is a consideration for a starting point. Certainly there is variation within each sex.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> It is a consideration for a starting point. Certainly there is variation within each sex.


I prefer to have more of an open mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> I prefer to have an open mind.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then don't snap it shut.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Then don't snap it shut.


I give advice based on circumstances not their gender. 

I also don't won't to manipulate these posters into a manipulative controlling sub/Dom type relationship. Just because it works for you doesn't mean its for everyone. 

I don't won't to "inspire" anyone to submit to me. An equal partner is a much healthier dynamic for my children to grow up in. My daughter can grow up and be the President of the USA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

ButtPunch said:


> I think he is saying women won't give women the same advice as they give men even if they are in the same exact situation.
> 
> I believe that is what Philly is referring to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe, though I could make the same argument about men. I see men giving different advice to women than they give men all the time here on TAM.

I saw a thread about a betrayed hb whose wife objected to him having lunch with a female friend he admitted he was attacked to. Lots of men told him he should be able to go because it wasn't him who had the affair so screw her.

I've seen similar threads with betrayed wives who are told they can't have male friends because they're vulnerable and even though hubby is a cheater he's still somehow got the right to expect boundaries for her. Since cheating hubby is now wildly jealous she must cater to his insecurities. 

I've seen threads by men in sexless marriages whose wives have hormonal or physical issues and it is demanded that she get to the doctor and fix it or he should dump her. Yet wives with hb's that have ED are supposed to cut the guy slack because ED is emasculating, so she must cater to his ego. 

And the best of them all: I've seen threads by betrayed wives where a few men will actually suggest it's HER fault! She must not have been giving him the porn sex he was entitled to. That would NEVER happen on a bh thread. ....i got banned for having the gall to suggest that a 30 year old man who knocked up an 18 year old girl and subsequently had her cheat on him might not have exercised good judgement when knocking up a girl barely out of high school. It's absolute sacriledge to suggest a bh might have played a part. I wonder if a man has ever been banned for suggesting the wife might be at fault for hubby's cheating? 

I could keep going. Why the differences?

In the end everyone does it because it's natural to see it from the viewpoint of your own gender, so when the other side does it you shouldn't have to put up with their crap but when your side does it you have more understanding as to why it might happen. Especially if "your side" isn't here to give their side. 

Most of us try to keep the advice consistent but their are small nuances between genders and circumstances that might make slightly different advice appropriate. 

But let's not pretend that all of us women defend each other while the guys are completely impartial. Anyone who really thinks that should contact me because I have a bridge to sell them. 

Most of us have given the advice we think appropriate. OP can either follow it or not, but let's not pretend the that there's only one right or helpful answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

lifeistooshort said:


> Maybe, though I could make the same argument about men. I see men giving different advice to women than they give men all the time here on TAM.
> 
> I saw a thread about a betrayed hb whose wife objected to him having lunch with a female friend he admitted he was attacked to. Lots of men told him he should be able to go because it wasn't him who had the affair so screw her.
> 
> I've seen similar threads with betrayed wives who are told they can't have male friends because they're vulnerable and even though hubby is a cheater he's still somehow got the right to expect boundaries for her. Since cheating hubby is now wildly jealous she must cater to his insecurities.
> 
> I've seen threads by men in sexless marriages whose wives have hormonal or physical issues and it is demanded that she get to the doctor and fix it or he should dump her. Yet wives with hb's that have ED are supposed to cut the guy slack because ED is emasculating, so she must cater to his ego.
> 
> And the best of them all: I've seen threads by betrayed wives where a few men will actually suggest it's HER fault! She must not have been giving him the porn sex he was entitled to. That would NEVER happen on a bh thread. ....i got banned for having the gall to suggest that a 30 year old man who knocked up an 18 year old girl and subsequently had her cheat on him might not have exercised good judgement when knocking up a girl barely out of high school. It's absolute sacriledge to suggest a bh might have played a part. I wonder if a man has ever been banned for suggesting the wife might be at fault for hubby's cheating?
> 
> I could keep going. Why the differences?
> 
> In the end everyone does it because it's natural to see it from the viewpoint of your own gender, so when the other side does it you shouldn't have to put up with their crap but when your side does it you have more understanding as to why it might happen. Especially if "your side" isn't here to give their side.
> 
> Most of us try to keep the advice consistent but their are small nuances between genders and circumstances that might make slightly different advice appropriate.
> 
> But let's not pretend that all of us women defend each other while the guys are completely impartial. Anyone who really thinks that should contact me because I have a bridge to sell them.
> 
> Most of us have given the advice we think appropriate. OP can either follow it or not, but let's not pretend the that there's only one right or helpful answer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I should have said certain women.....not all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ButtPunch said:


> I think he is saying women won't give women the same advice as they give men even if they are in the same exact situation.
> 
> I believe that is what Philly is referring to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Honestly, I think more men give gender biased advice around here than the women. Man up, go to the gym, be a leader, put her in her place, women love alpha guys. They also often marry nice guys just for money, are shallow, emotional and don't know what we want. Refuse sex with hubby but go all wh*red out with another man, monkey vine from one to the next and ego/disrespect is not as important to them as it is to a man .... and so on. 

If a man comes on and admits to neglecting his spouse's needs for years even though she tried and tried to talk to him about it and his wife is now done and wants out- a lot of the men will still say she's cheating, don't give in, you're doing enough anyway just by having a job, she's lying to you to justify her behavior.

If a woman came on and admitted she hadn't had sex with her husband for years and he tried and tried too, and he finally said he's done and wants out- do you think those same men would give her the same advice?

And some of the advice to the men is making them feel crazy, not just OP, there are others. They are spying for months and years to find something because the group told him she MUST be cheating, there is no other option. Keep VARing, keep looking. She's just hiding it better. 
You tell someone enough times that their wife is a horrible person, call her names, tell them she is cheating and even give descriptions to some men about what some unknown OM must be doing to her- that's going to make anyone's wheels spin until they are in a mess like this. 

I do not see as many women telling other women those kinds of things. Gender specific advice about things like attractiveness to the opposite sex, qualities that woman are drawn to, some of the leader and D/s stuff sure. Women and men are equal but not exactly the same, some stuff changes depending on gender. 

Though I haven't seen a thread that has a woman OP doing the same kinds of methods of spying for so long and (what is IMO) overreacting and being sensitive that I can remember. If I see one, I would comment the same as here. I don't think this has anything to do with him being a man, these are steps I took and I'm a woman. 

The best and most recent example I could give is SadSam's thread about taking a poly. His wife seems to be similar in ways that KR is. 

I think and said that yes, his behavior was not perfect but his wife needs to either let it go and move forward together or leave. Holding on to that stuff isn't healthy for anyone. 
Same kind of stuff I told KR but the big difference is his wife's not here, I can't talk to her.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

lifeistooshort- you posted while I was typing. I should have just waited, you said it perfect.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> I give advice based on circumstances not their gender.
> 
> I also don't won't to manipulate these posters into a manipulative controlling sub/Dom type relationship. Just because it works for you doesn't mean its for everyone.
> 
> I don't won't to "inspire" anyone to submit to me. An equal partner is a much healthier dynamic for my children to grow up in. My daughter can grow up and be the President of the USA.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are making me laugh, BP. 

And _my_ daughter just might be President someday.


----------



## ButtPunch

Then we just disagree.

If the OP was a woman, she would have been told her husband has poor boundaries and to leave him. 

Which is good advice IMO. 

Not this war on VARS and the OPs anger issues.

He can clean his side of the street while the divorce is going thru.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> lifeistooshort- you posted while I was typing. I should have just waited, you said it perfect.


You both made great posts. You always do.


----------



## jdawg2015

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Honestly, I think more men give gender biased advice around here than the women.


A biased statement about bias. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

SGC, the idea of TAM is to get counterpoints. The issue here is some people want to "win" an internet debate which is silly. 

You appear to come from a stance of right/wrong or B&W. 

When you are dealing with emotions, feelings, values, beliefs, things are very non-linear and irrational so people need advice on how to get past them. 

There is no script or formula for some of these things. Your approach and posting style will lead most men to react exactly like KR has as you come across as condemning (I can almost bet your H has felt the same way from you). Sometimes its as simple as "how you say it not what you say". Food for thought.


----------



## jdawg2015

ButtPunch said:


> Then we just disagree.
> 
> If the OP was a woman, she would have been told her husband has poor boundaries and to leave him.
> 
> Which is good advice IMO.
> 
> Not this war on VARS and the OPs anger issues.
> 
> He can clean his side of the street while the divorce is going thru.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree: Yup.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> You are making me laugh, BP.
> 
> And _my_ daughter just might be President someday.


I hope she does too. She will have to rebel against the traditional gender roles set forth by her parents or may be the first submissive US President
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

knightRider said:


> thanks, jld. Why would I apologize for her swearing at me?


Old story 

Young man is talking with an old man. He is upset as he had a blazing row with hus wife. He wants to know what to do.

The old man says: "That's easy! Buy her some chocolates!"

The young man says: "Why should I do that? I was right and she was in the wrong."

The old man said "Oh! If she really was in the wrong you need to buy her chocolates AND flowers, too!" 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Then we just disagree.
> 
> If the OP was a woman, she would have been told her husband has poor boundaries and to leave him.
> 
> Which is good advice IMO.
> 
> Not this war on VARS and the OPs anger issues.
> 
> He can clean his side of the street while the divorce is going thru.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am hopeful for his marriage. His counselor is hopeful. The counselor must see reasonable basis for hope.

Knight rider, please know that I am here for encouragement whenever you might need it. I see much potential in your marriage. And I have great respect for your commitment to your children.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ButtPunch said:


> Then we just disagree.
> 
> If the OP was a woman, she would have been told her husband has poor boundaries and to leave him.
> 
> Which is good advice IMO.
> 
> Not this war on VARS and the OPs anger issues.
> 
> He can clean his side of the street while the divorce is going thru.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


His wife does have poor boundaries, and I would absolutely not tolerate my hb having similar boundaries. Some of us are just saying almost a year of spying is making him crazy. .... he knows all he needs to know. She's not cheating but likes male attention and complains about him to other men. He's to the point where laughing in the presence of another man is cheating. It's not healthy for him. 

If counseling doesn't get her to see how fvcked up that is he should leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> lifeistooshort- you posted while I was typing. I should have just waited, you said it perfect.


Thanks 

Sometimes I just get started on my rants.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> I hope she does too. She will have to rebel against the traditional gender roles set forth by her parents or may be the first submissive US President
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My daughter is her own person, BP. Trust me! 

Okay, sorry. Going to brag about my daughter for a minute. She is a junior in chemical engineering, with a 3.92 GPA. She placed first in a national research competition last year, beating out kids from Yale and Berkeley. 

And she was recently nominated for a Goldwater Scholarship. Each American university is allowed to nominate only four students. She was selected from the 35k students who attend her university.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_M._Goldwater_Scholarship

There is no reason that she cannot achieve _anything_ that she wants to.


----------



## jld

lifeistooshort said:


> Thanks
> 
> Sometimes I just get started on my rants.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you are doing great! Always very logical, thought-provoking posts.


----------



## ButtPunch

lifeistooshort said:


> His wife does have poor boundaries, and I would absolutely not tolerate my hb having similar boundaries. Some of us are just saying almost a year of spying is making him crazy. .... he knows all he needs to know. She's not cheating but likes male attention and complains about him to other men. He's to the point where laughing in the presence of another man is cheating. It's not healthy for him.
> 
> If counseling doesn't get her to see how fvcked up that is he should leave.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here we agree. 10 months of VAR just tells me he is codependent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

lifeistooshort said:


> Interesting, I didn't realize that women voicing dissenting opinions constituted a gender problem. Particularly since TAM has a lot more men.


Since, I neither stated or implied anything of the sort, I have no clue why you heaped this on me from one sentence.



> Although we're often told that not only can we not speak for men (fair enough) but we can't speak for women either because us silly womens don't know what we want. .... we need men to tell us.


*Shrugs* Not by me.



lifeistooshort said:


> Or did I misunderstand your post?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes you most certainly did. I find it interesting one sentence set you off like this, but it happens.

I said "we," I didn't say men over women or women over men. "We" is inclusive of all posters of any gender they want to claim. Like you said in another thread, I have no problem saying what I mean. If I meant women I would have blamed women. If I meant you specifically, I would have addressed your post or posts specifically. 

In this last year or so, gender arguments have become very pronounced and divisive inside threads. Also, these arguments bring in baggage and have a bad tendency to color advice. They derail threads and get people to make comments like most, many and all men or the exact same for women. So, yes, I warned him it was going to happen early on. When I caught up with his update and some of the snarky comments from both genders occurred, I made an "I told you so" comment without those four words.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

jdawg2015 said:


> A biased statement about bias. :rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> SGC, the idea of TAM is to get counterpoints. The issue here is some people want to "win" an internet debate which is silly.
> 
> You appear to come from a stance of right/wrong or B&W.
> 
> When you are dealing with emotions, feelings, values, beliefs, things are very non-linear and irrational so people need advice on how to get past them.
> 
> There is no script or formula for some of these things. Your approach and posting style will lead most men to react exactly like KR has as you come across as condemning (I can almost bet your H has felt the same way from you). Sometimes its as simple as "how you say it not what you say". Food for thought.


That's fine if you think that, FTR my H reads or I read him a lot of my stuff here so I can get a "do you think this is worded ok?" from him, he likes and agrees with my stuff. Don't worry about my H. 

But there is a place for both sides. If all the OP gets is the typical response of 180, VAR her, demand respect and stop being a nice guy (which is just a _different _script and formula than the one I'm suggesting) then that's all he gets out of this. 

His last thread people told him to VAR so he did, for 10 months. 
He's done many of the other suggestions so I'm adding mine. One that worked amazing for myself and I believe in.


----------



## lifeistooshort

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Since, I neither stated or implied anything of the sort, I have no clue why you heaped this on me from one sentence.
> 
> *Shrugs* Not by me.
> 
> 
> Yes you most certainly did. I find it interesting one sentence set you off like this, but it happens.
> 
> I said "we," I didn't say men over women or women over men. "We" is inclusive of all posters of any gender they want to claim. Like you said in another thread, I have no problem saying what I mean. If I meant women I would have blamed women. If I meant you specifically, I would have addressed your post or posts specifically.
> 
> In this last year or so, gender arguments have become very pronounced and divisive inside threads. Also, these arguments bring in baggage and have a bad tendency to color advice. They derail threads and get people to make comments like most, many and all men or the exact same for women. So, yes, I warned him it was going to happen early on. When I caught up with his update and some of the snarky comments from both genders occurred, I made an "I told you so" comment without those four words.


Fair enough. I can certainly appreciate one who says exactly what they mean.

I suppose what sets me off is the constant suggestions that when women give dissenting advice it's because we're all part of the sisterhood and should be dismissed. 

If that's not the case that makes me happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> My daughter is her own person, BP. Trust me!
> 
> Okay, sorry. Going to brag about my daughter for a minute. She is a junior in chemical engineering, with a 3.92 GPA. She placed first in a national research competition last year, beating out kids from Yale and Berkeley.
> 
> And she was recently nominated for a Goldwater Scholarship. Each American university is allowed to nominate only four students. She was selected from the 35k students who attend her university.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_M._Goldwater_Scholarship
> 
> There is no reason that she cannot achieve _anything_ that she wants to.


Well my daughter is in the 1st grade and has a 4.0 and can finger paint like a boss. She also bats cleanup on an all boys baseball team.

Congrats on your daughter. I was a C student and now own an engineering company. I'm always looking for talent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

I have two sons so the issues that affect men are very important to me. I care very much about what they will face as young men. 

Having opposite sex children has a way of shifting your perspective a bit. .... at least it has for me. 

I hope counseling goes well for OP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Well my daughter is in the 1st grade and has a 4.0 and can finger paint like a boss. She also bats cleanup on an all boys baseball team.
> 
> Congrats on your daughter. I was a C student and now own an engineering company. I'm always looking for talent.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey, I will keep that in mind.


----------



## jld

lifeistooshort said:


> I have two sons so the issues that affect men are very important to me. I care very much about what they will face as young men.
> 
> Having opposite sex children has a way of shifting your perspective a bit. .... at least it has for me.
> 
> I hope counseling goes well for OP.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have four boys, as you know, in addition to my daughter. It might be interesting to do a thread sometime on raising opposite sex children. 

My sons seem harder than my daughter, actually.


----------



## jdawg2015

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> That's fine if you think that, FTR my H reads or I read him a lot of my stuff here so I can get a "do you think this is worded ok?" from him, he likes and agrees with my stuff. Don't worry about my H.
> 
> But there is a place for both sides. If all the OP gets is the typical response of 180, VAR her, demand respect and stop being a nice guy (which is just a _different _script and formula than the one I'm suggesting) then that's all he gets out of this.
> 
> His last thread people told him to VAR so he did, for 10 months.
> He's done many of the other suggestions so I'm adding mine. One that worked amazing for myself and I believe in.


But you see, we both agree but for way different reasons. The VAR is a symptom of the disease. It's not healthy but he does it because the wife does have poor boundaries.

Once a spouse drops a bomb and told the OP "I don't want you to read the emails because you'd get the wrong idea" it set off the chain of mistrust. So obviously the OP's gut was correct that something was off in the first place. 

The VAR advice was correct and it did reveal things. Then enter the emotions and irrational portion that KR is dealing with.

We can all sit here as keyboard cowboys as we are not emotionally invested. Even the best advice takes time to sink in. Sending a post on TAM is not a line of code that a computer just follows as an instruction. OP is sorting things out but unless he steps in line and follows your advice pronto you keep hammering a nail that's already sunk into the wood.

Your H had a PA. Did your answer to the problems in your marriage come to you in a flash? I suspect not.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I said 10 months not the OP. He clarified he wasn't doing it everyday or all of the time.

I still think he is hedging on the information because something caused him to start VAR'ing again and asking about her past sex life. Time and Time again, when we see prior sex acts come up, something triggered a guy.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

jdawg2015 said:


> Your H had a PA. Did your answer to the problems in your marriage come to you in a flash? I suspect not.


Nope, I had breakdown first. His PA was mid-May, I got confirmation of it in June after a lot of gaslighting, trickle truth. That whole month + was a disaster and I was doing pretty much everything wrong.

If I could go back to that time and tell myself something it would be what I am saying to him and a lot of it _is _what I told myself and keep having to tell myself every time I slip back into my negative mode. 
No middle ground- make it work or leave. No staying and being angry, no staying and not trusting. 
Find my faults and fix them- you can only change yourself. 
Work on creating positive love changes vs. working on preventing negative. 

I get that I don't come across well in writing, I'm not great at putting words to my thoughts but my intentions are good. I'm not telling the OP anything I wouldn't follow myself. It worked for me, that's all I'm trying to communicate and I do understand that people disagree with it and that's ok.


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Nope, I had breakdown first. His PA was mid-May, I got confirmation of it in June after a lot of gaslighting, trickle truth. That whole month + was a disaster and I was doing pretty much everything wrong.
> 
> If I could go back to that time and tell myself something it would be what I am saying to him and a lot of it _is _what I told myself and keep having to tell myself every time I slip back into my negative mode.
> No middle ground- make it work or leave. No staying and being angry, no staying and not trusting.
> Find my faults and fix them- you can only change yourself.
> Work on creating positive love changes vs. working on preventing negative.
> 
> I get that I don't come across well in writing, I'm not great at putting words to my thoughts but my intentions are good. I'm not telling the OP anything I wouldn't follow myself. It worked for me, that's all I'm trying to communicate and I do understand that people disagree with it and that's ok.


You're doing fine. We are all lucky you are on this thread.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

It's not your writing, it's the different details everyone focuses on. You see things as equal in places others do not. I weight their mutual actions differently than others. It's why advice varies so widely on this board. It's not wrong just different.


----------



## jdawg2015

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Nope, I had breakdown first. His PA was mid-May, I got confirmation of it in June after a lot of gaslighting, trickle truth. That whole month + was a disaster and I was doing pretty much everything wrong.
> 
> If I could go back to that time and tell myself something it would be what I am saying to him and a lot of it _is _what I told myself and keep having to tell myself every time I slip back into my negative mode.
> No middle ground- make it work or leave. No staying and being angry, no staying and not trusting.
> Find my faults and fix them- you can only change yourself.
> Work on creating positive love changes vs. working on preventing negative.
> 
> I get that I don't come across well in writing, I'm not great at putting words to my thoughts but my intentions are good. I'm not telling the OP anything I wouldn't follow myself. It worked for me, that's all I'm trying to communicate and I do understand that people disagree with it and that's ok.


Please don't take my pointing out your marriage issues as a poke in the eye.

It's just that I can totally empathize with KR taking longer to come around to how to deal with things as I did the same thing with my fiancé. Even when I "knew" the right answers it still took time to execute things. And in my job, I'm the guy people to come to for answers and make the decisions.... yet my personal relationship had become a nightmare and I didn't want to admit it....

That's how I see KR. He can't make a decision. He's stuck in rationalization mode.


----------



## jld

jdawg2015 said:


> Please don't take my pointing out your marriage issues as a poke in the eye.
> 
> It's just that I can totally empathize with KR taking longer to come around to how to deal with things as I did the same thing with my fiancé. Even when I "knew" the right answers it still took time to execute things. And in my job, I'm the guy people to come to for answers and make the decisions.... yet my personal relationship had become a nightmare and I didn't want to admit it....
> 
> That's how I see KR. He can't make a decision. He's stuck in rationalization mode.


The counselor will help him. I think he and his wife will be fine.


----------



## knightRider

Healthy debate folks! :grin2:

I have admitted I have become paranoid. I make changes in my life where I need to. Still some people come on here implying I'm some kind of p**sy.

This past year has been a massive education or me. I'm changing the way I handle things. I was Mr Nice Guy, brought up by a single mum, dad died when I was 9. Read the book and saw myself there. All the things my mum taught me I would do. Then when I read the book, I snapped. I'm not being taken for a walk over fool anymore. Mum would shout at me continually, then after reading the book, I told her never to shout at me again as I would not tolerate it. She stormed off for 1 month. After that month of absence, she has never shouted at me and talks to me politely.

I've cut off ties with my brother who continually ridiculed me and I kept going back to him. 

To the people implying I am weak, I've started Thai boxing and can now hold my own, I've had foot injuries, jaw injuries and hamstring pulls. 

I'm standing up at work, not a push over any more.

So, many changes going on in my world. I need to give this marriage one last chance. I can see changes in my wife already. She's started to open up to me. Tells more more about how she feels. We have a day off today to spend time together. Let's see how we progress....


----------



## bandit.45

lifeistooshort said:


> His wife does have poor boundaries, and I would absolutely not tolerate my hb having similar boundaries. Some of us are just saying almost a year of spying is making him crazy. .... he knows all he needs to know. She's not cheating but likes male attention and complains about him to other men. He's to the point where laughing in the presence of another man is cheating. It's not healthy for him.
> 
> If counseling doesn't get her to see how fvcked up that is he should leave.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Totally agree with you. 

I think there are some core attributes about her that are positive. But yet again, we see another person who craves constant validation from multiple people -- in her case men. If she cannot see how this is problematic, she will continue to be a dangerous partner for OP to be with. 

She is, quite literally, an affair waiting to happen.


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> So, many changes going on in my world. I need to give this marriage one last chance. I can see changes in my wife already. She's started to open up to me. Tells more more about how she feels. We have a day off today to spend time together. Let's see how we progress....


That sounds really good, KR. I am really happy she followed the advice of the therapist. That shows she wants to save the marriage, too.

Make it easy for her, KR. Listen patiently. Make it safe for her to open her heart to you. Would you feel okay maybe holding her hand while she does so, if she is okay with that, too?

Sometimes, when I have wanted to tell my husband something very painful about my past, the only way I have had the courage to tell him was by sitting on his lap, closing my eyes, and literally whispering it in his ear. 

He never made fun of me. He just held me and soothed me. It is very trust-building. I really have the feeling I can tell Dug anything, and together we will find a way to work through it.

I hope your day goes great. Thanks for letting us follow your journey.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

KR- no one thinks you're a p*ssy. My concern is that you end up going too far on the other side of doormat- to where you can't let anything slide, you are very strict and need perfect compliance. 

Letting someone walk all over you is not good, being too far the other way isn't either. 

Just find a happy middle where you CAN let a lot of things go and focus only on the major issues. Don't let things eat you up or hurt your feelings. You can't control what anyone else does but you can control how you react to it. 

I can tell you that if I got the put his foot down treatment and the demanding I do not do something, I would probably still do it. Or stop but not because I wanted to and I would lose some love and respect. 
People don't like being told what to do. 
Selfish Demands

Talks about how to motivate your spouse vs. demand from your spouse. 

I have motivation now to not hurt my H. Had he demanded it from me we would have had a tit or tat battle of wills on our hands.


----------



## knightRider

thanks bandit and jld. Popping off to the pub for some grub (food) with her. Asked her for boundaries and had a very open chat. Will try and update later...:surprise:


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

This one is also helpful for your situation 

Disrespectful Judgments

A disrespectful judgment occurs whenever one spouse tries to impose a system of values and beliefs on the other. When a husband tries to force his point of view on his wife, he's just asking for trouble. When a wife assumes that her own views are right and her husband is woefully misguided -- and tells him so -- she enters a minefield.

In most cases, a disrespectful judgment is simply a sophisticated way of getting what one spouse wants from the other. But even when there are the purest motives, it's still a stupid and abusive strategy. It's stupid because it doesn't work, and it's abusive because it causes unhappiness. If we think we have the right -- even the responsibility -- to impose our view on our spouses, our efforts will almost invariably be interpreted as personally threatening, arrogant, rude, and incredibly disrespectful. That's when we make sizable withdrawals from the Love Bank.


----------



## knightRider

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> KR- no one thinks you're a p*ssy. My concern is that you end up going too far on the other side of doormat- to where you can't let anything slide, you are very strict and need perfect compliance.
> 
> Letting someone walk all over you is not good, being too far the other way isn't either.
> 
> Just find a happy middle where you CAN let a lot of things go and focus only on the major issues. Don't let things eat you up or hurt your feelings. You can't control what anyone else does but you can control how you react to it.
> 
> I can tell you that if I got the put his foot down treatment and the demanding I do not do something, I would probably still do it. Or stop but not because I wanted to and I would lose some love and respect.
> People don't like being told what to do.
> Selfish Demands
> 
> Talks about how to motivate your spouse vs. demand from your spouse.
> 
> I have motivation now to not hurt my H. Had he demanded it from me we would have had a tit or tat battle of wills on our hands.


I've never demanded. I've placed MY boundaries that she agreed to.


----------



## jld

Yes, you are absolutely not a weak man. A weak man would not be sticking around, admitting his own mistakes, and seeking counseling with his wife. That takes a *strong* man. 

I have to say, you are earning my respect, KR. It is not easy to hear some pretty intense points of view and still stay in the ring. Even harder to resist the calls to just divorce already. And I say that *with respect* to the people who have advocated that. 

I think people underestimate the power of kindness and compassion. We are all imperfect. We all do hurtful things sometimes. Probably because we feel hurt, too.

Humbling ourselves and realizing the other person is not trying to be bad, anymore than we are, is eye-opening. And it helps us forgive them and try again. 

What else can we do? We are all stuck with each other on this planet.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> Yes, you are absolutely not a weak man. A weak man would not be sticking around, admitting his own mistakes, and seeking counseling with his wife. That takes a *strong* man.


 No, it is just different. If he chose to leave or had left it wouldn't make him weak either.

KR, abusive gets throw around and misused a ton on this board. It is not abusive to want your wife to have boundaries and not laugh at your expense with other men. It is not abusive to distrust someone when they have given you reason to not believe in them.


----------



## jdawg2015

No no no no no!

The post about disrespectful judgements is a shows a horrible misapplication of the MB "system" and is why each little mini topic can't be looked at in isolation.

You set your boundary. She is free to chose what she wants to do. If she violates your boundary then you can enforce the appropriate consequence. That's not a demand but the person doing the boundary crossing may feel so because viola there is a price for said action.

SCS please you need a better understanding of boundaries, demands, and respect.

He is not making a demand, he is setting a boundary.

He does show loss of respect and trust in his wife and that can end up creating issues in there own way. But recall, the wife made a huge withdrawal to the love bank. 

op definitely justified based on his post to firm up boundaries with his wife. He will have to be able to let the past go and not forever hold against her the things she did once they establish things with the counselor and themselves.

But if she does not agree to the boundaries he needs, then it's time to part ways.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> How about sitting down with paper and pen and just writing out all your feelings?
> 
> Just get everything out, however angry, sad, hurt, worried, etc., that you feel.


....maybe put on a Barry Manilow CD....


----------



## Space Mountain

knightRider,

I have been following your thread and I have not had a chance to comment until now but I just wanted to say that you are doing the right things and have not made any mistakes. It is good that you have armed yourself with NMMNG and MMSLP. I would have done the same thing if I had been put in that situation. 

You would not have been paranoid if she did not have the loose boundaries and rotten attitude in the first place. I understand the VARing and spying is for your protection and your family. How can anyone blame you for that? I would not think twice about VARing and spying if it would save my family from destruction and a lifetime of hurt. Do not let anyone flip this on you and try to convince you that you are the bad guy.

It sounds like you are on the right track in general. The counseling sounds good and I think that the two of you can make it work once everyone understands and works toward the same goal. 

Proceed with caution. Don't be a doormat and sometimes don't sweat the small stuff.


----------



## bandit.45

You don't enforce boundaries. You don't levy punishment for crossed boundaries. 

A person must tell the spouse "I'm not going to control you. I have told you that such and such things are a violation of my boundaries and are things which I, as your partner, will not abide in our marriage. If you choose to do these things, knowing that I consider them to be violations of the integrity of our relationship, then that is your choice. My response will then be to remove myself from the situation completely so that your choices will no longer adversely affect me or hurt me. That is my choice. I will no force you, threaten you, boss you around or give you ultimatums. I will simply take actions that I feel are necessary to protect myself emotionally, financially and mentally."


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

jdawg- When you read through the links everything comes together. Hopefully he will continue on to the rules of negotiation part as well. I can't use 100% of MB but what I can has been very useful. 

But it is a different kind of system and plan than others are. I'm not sure if it can be mixed with bits from other ones without contradicting some of the concepts.
He does make exception to selfish demands when it comes to stopping an affair. 

I agree that if they can not agree _peacefully _they should split. If he can't get her to agree without disrespectful judgements, demands or anger then eventually it will become a problem anyway and likely just not compatible. I do worry that they just aren't. 

Some couples are totally fine with OSF, going out, even some flirting. Other couples aren't. Neither is better or worse, it's just whatever works for that couple. When they are both on such different pages then there will be issues.


----------



## jdawg2015

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> jdawg- When you read through the links everything comes together. Hopefully he will continue on to the rules of negotiation part as well. I can't use 100% of MB but what I can has been very useful.
> 
> But it is a different kind of system and plan than others are. I'm not sure if it can be mixed with bits from other ones without contradicting some of the concepts.
> He does make exception to selfish demands when it comes to stopping an affair.
> 
> I agree that if they can not agree _peacefully _they should split. If he can't get her to agree without disrespectful judgements, demands or anger then eventually it will become a problem anyway and likely just not compatible. I do worry that they just aren't.
> 
> Some couples are totally fine with OSF, going out, even some flirting. Other couples aren't. Neither is better or worse, it's just whatever works for that couple. When they are both on such different pages then there will be issues.


I do understand the "MB" system and there are great points he makes. But, it's just one of many methods and styles than can be applied, it's not a bible on relationships.

One of the things people on TAM get wrong is boundaries. Especially when it comes down to acting when a boundary agreement is violated. In this case, KR was not effective with the boundary.

Your post about disrespectful judgement and how you inserted it into this discussion is an improper application of the tools KR needs to use.

His wife is violating boundaries talking down about her H and laughing at his expense to other men. Totally legit boundary for KR to have. 

By telling his wife that he won't accept her behavior and will leave the marriage if she continues is not a "disrespectful judgement" which your post implies. Completely different thing.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

jdawg2015 said:


> By telling his wife that he won't accept her behavior and will leave the marriage if she continues is not a "disrespectful judgement" which your post implies. Completely different thing.


There is nothing wrong with him deciding they are not compatible and leave, I'm not implying that. 
But divorce shouldn't be used as a threat to get her to comply or get his way, none of those things should be used as threats. If he needs to leave it is to protect himself, it's not a punishment for breaking his rules. It may not seem like there's a difference but IMO there's a big one. 


And he has a better chance, IMO, of getting her to keep his boundaries if he negotiates them without anger, demands, DJs. 

Ex. I had many times in my first 8 years told my H some form of "If you don't start doing more chores, I'm going to have to divorce you" which was mostly an empty threat because I knew I wasn't quite sure or ready at that time even though I eventually would have left over it. He would agree, apologize and do just enough for just long enough to get me off his back and we'd go around and around and it was always a fight even though he agreed with me. 

Now it's fixed to the point it's not an issue and I don't have to bring it up.


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> There is nothing wrong with him deciding they are not compatible and leave, I'm not implying that.
> But divorce shouldn't be used as a threat to get her to comply or get his way, none of those things should be used as threats. If he needs to leave it is to protect himself, it's not a punishment for breaking his rules. It may not seem like there's a difference but IMO there's a big one.


I think the best reason to leave is that you realize you cannot be what that person needs. And because you truly love them, you want them to have what they need, even if what they need is another person. Ego slips away, and love prevails. 



> And he has a better chance, IMO, of getting her to keep his boundaries if he negotiates them without anger, demands, DJs.
> 
> Ex. I had many times in my first 8 years told my H some form of "If you don't start doing more chores, I'm going to have to divorce you" which was mostly an empty threat because I knew I wasn't quite sure or ready at that time even though I eventually would have left over it. He would agree, apologize and do just enough for just long enough to get me off his back and we'd go around and around and it was always a fight even though he agreed with me.
> 
> *Now it's fixed to the point it's not an issue* and I don't have to bring it up.


SGC, could you elaborate on the bolded, as in how you got it fixed?


----------



## jld

KR, were you and your wife able to have some open hearted talks yesterday?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

jld said:


> SGC, could you elaborate on the bolded, as in how you got it fixed?


A mix of things. We negotiated things out peacefully and lovingly. So instead of a nagging lecture we sat down, went over some things we both needed and came to agreements.
That did mean I had to let some things go and loosen up my standards a but so I don't get exactly what I had wanted but I am happy with what was agreed on.

But even then, had we not been meeting each other's needs in other places and building love, I think we'd come across issues again. 

If OP's wife feels like she's doing things because he told her to, eventually I think she'll slide back into her bad habits because she's not in the right mindset. If the other parts of her marriage aren't also being worked on and she's getting love busters and not enough EN filled, eventually you start feeling like why bother doing something for him

A subtle shift in perspective and negotiation and now the more I give the more I get and it's a positive cycle. 
I'm giving to build love, not giving to get back. Building love naturally makes people want to do things back for you. 
So I get the results in the end anyway. 

When you are in love with someone and you have a good, solid marriage, you don't want to hurt them. You want to do things for them because you love them. 

My H's affair happened after work going to the bar with his coworkers without me. Since then I don't have to tell him not to, I haven't had to tell him he can't go somewhere or make a boundary about no outings without me. He just would rather be with me so if I don't go he doesn't want to. He doesn't want to hurt me so he avoids things that would when before he, like me, didn't really care.

I too have had loose boundaries, putting myself in positions where EA or even a PA are possible. Taking ego boosts from random guys who wanted to compliment me.
A "stop doing that or I'm leaving you" wouldn't have worked. I'd agree, probably stop for a while but eventually slip back into bad habits. 
Build love with me, talk to me without demands and judgements and I naturally don't want to ever give any kind of impression to anyone, including my H, that I am vulnerable to being open to compliments or an affair.


----------



## jld

Great post, SGC. 

I don't know if you are familiar with a new poster named Overzealous, but he could use the advice you have given here. I am going to mention you on his thread.


----------



## ButtPunch

jdawg2015 said:


> I do understand the "MB" system and there are great points he makes. But, it's just one of many methods and styles than can be applied, it's not a bible on relationships.
> 
> One of the things people on TAM get wrong is boundaries. Especially when it comes down to acting when a boundary agreement is violated. In this case, KR was not effective with the boundary.
> 
> Your post about disrespectful judgement and how you inserted it into this discussion is an improper application of the tools KR needs to use.
> 
> His wife is violating boundaries talking down about her H and laughing at his expense to other men. Totally legit boundary for KR to have.
> 
> By telling his wife that he won't accept her behavior and will leave the marriage if she continues is not a "disrespectful judgement" which your post implies. Completely different thing.


I completely agree with this except that the OP should have left when the boundary was crossed. A boundary is worthless if not enforced. Once the boundary was crossed the first time the OP should have ended it and not threatened to end it and start the obsessive monitoring. 

I do understand its hard to pull the plug on a marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> There is nothing wrong with him deciding they are not compatible and leave, I'm not implying that.
> But divorce shouldn't be used as a threat to get her to comply or get his way, none of those things should be used as threats. If he needs to leave it is to protect himself, it's not a punishment for breaking his rules. It may not seem like there's a difference but IMO there's a big one.
> 
> 
> And he has a better chance, IMO, of getting her to keep his boundaries if he negotiates them without anger, demands, DJs.


It's not a threat. It's INFORMATION. You flirt with other men and I find out, I'll find someone else who doesn't flirt. 

It's information she needs to know.

Now, you HAVE brought up one thing I don't think has actually been discussed, and I think I'll be including it in my advice from now on. You said to negotiate. I can see that as, for example in this case, saying 'I can't stay with you if you flirt' and her saying 'what constitutes flirting to you? I need to know' and then them agreeing on what those boundaries actually look like. 

It follows the Authoritative Parenting style, which is the approved method of raising kids, and I can see how it applies here. A marriage SHOULD be a negotiation, a compromise, so that both people feel heard and respected. The Authoritative style works because the kid feels heard, gets to provide their input so the result more closely MEANS something to them.

It would stand to reason this would work in a marriage, too, Just stating 'you speak to a guy, I leave' realistically won't work. But they can TALK, and he can state what he's willing to accept and what he isn't, and then ask her what HER take on it is. For instance, he can explain 'discussing sex is something I simply can't accept' and if she's not just a WW looking for freedom to have more men, she should realistically say 'you're right, I can see how that would be inappropriate; ok, I will not discuss sex with any other men.'

Bottom line, this all boils down to communication.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Since people are hanging on to the 10 months, let me interject something new. 
They are now in counseling, for the same issue, twice in 10 months.

I think 80% of his problems stem from constant renegotiation of boundaries. So, he makes divorce a choice not a threat.


----------



## synthetic

If people had listened to the OP's respectful request not to post garbage feminist sh1t in his threads without knowing his background, the poor dude might have been free of this crappy marriage by now.

Wife makes you feel uncomfortable with her poor boundaries around other men? VAR the sh1t out of her if you want, but my suggestion is to simply divorce her. Life is too short to worry about these things. I learned the hard way.


----------



## Omego

synthetic said:


> If people had listened to the OP's respectful request not to post garbage feminist sh1t in his threads without knowing his background, the poor dude might have been free of this crappy marriage by now.
> 
> Wife makes you feel uncomfortable with her poor boundaries around other men? VAR the sh1t out of her if you want, but my suggestion is to simply divorce her. Life is too short to worry about these things. I learned the hard way.


Children are involved. Divorcing with children should be a last resort once all other possibilities have been explored.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jdawg2015

Omego said:


> Children are involved. Divorcing with children should be a last resort once all other possibilities have been explored.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And if a parent is feeling paranoid and upset with their spouse, those kids will see a life of dysfunction and resentment growing up.

My guess is she won't change. I seriously hope they can work it out but a woman like that feeds on ego. There's a HUGE difference between a joke amongst co-workers and laughing at your spouse with another man. HUGE difference.


----------



## Omego

jdawg2015 said:


> And if a parent is feeling paranoid and upset with their spouse, those kids will see a life of dysfunction and resentment growing up.
> 
> .


 :iagree:


----------



## jdawg2015

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> A subtle shift in perspective and negotiation and now the more I give the more I get and it's a positive cycle.
> I'm giving to build love, not giving to get back. Building love naturally makes people want to do things back for you.
> So I get the results in the end anyway.


You really need to be careful as you are definitely pushing a silent contract there.

You are your H are only in the infancy of reconciliation. Be careful. My step father cheated on my mother, they R and about 8 years later he did it again........ second time around she kicked him out finally.

Also, that same harsh attitude you say you removed in your relationship is also showing up here. Not bashing, just giving you one man's view.


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> KR, were you and your wife able to have some open hearted talks yesterday?


Thanks for the replies people, appreciated.

Yes, jld, We opened up a lot. She told me all about her sexual past, I was really surprised. I told her all my past as well. That was a major breakthrough.

She then admitted that she found constructive criticism hard to take and that made her snap at me. That was also a first. She told me that she did flirt occasionally but because she wore a ring, she thought she was immune to the advances of men :surprise: 

Due to our communication problems, she told me that there were periods in the marriage where she had wished that I would leave and have an affair  There were periods where we just did not talk about how we felt, ignorance by both of us...

We discussed different scenarios of interaction with OSF and agreed on how things can be interpreted by both sexes. She promised to talk to me everyday about her work and potential "problem" scenarios with opposite sex colleagues. 

In summary, I told her that this was the last chance for us. Asked her if she understood where I was coming from on the boundaries and she said yes. I asked her for her boundaries and she said that she will give me a list..

We hope to continue counselling and spending ~ 15 hrs a week together. This will be difficult as we work in demanding jobs and 2 teenagers that need our time. 

Thanks again for people's input, nice to see pros and cons and others experience, it has helped immensely. Let's see how it goes and whether we are truly a couple..


----------



## jld

Wow. That was really good, KR. I can't believe how much ground you were able to cover so quickly. 

But once people humble themselves and open their hearts, it probably does not take long to resolve, or at least attempt to resolve, conflict.

I have to say, I am impressed. And hopeful for you two.

Did you show gratitude for her transparency? She really set her defenses aside.

Going to be honest with you. Your saying this was the last chance sounded threatening. I understand that is your feeling, and it is always good to be honest about your feelings. But I think taking a step back from your hurt, and relaxing from the idea that she is on probation, could be helpful.

It sounds like you are expecting her to make the marriage work. Is she comfortable with that responsibility?

I know I would not be. Maybe I can project a little, just to show an alternative way of viewing this?

If I opened my heart like that, my husband would not follow up with a reminder that this was my last chance. That would make me wonder why I bothered doing it. He would just hold me and reassure me that we would work things out. He would say that while we had had conflict, we were learning and growing and that is just part of marriage. 

Basically, he would take responsibility for the marriage. That would make me feel safe that I had shared so vulnerably with him. It would build my trust in him. 

I just offer that as food for thought, KR. I am so glad for you, that so much was uncovered in such a shirt time. I think transparency is a powerful tool. I guess I would just like to see it met with compassion, understanding, and _commitment._


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> Wow. That was really good, KR. I can't believe how much ground you were able to cover so quickly.
> 
> But once people humble themselves and open their hearts, it probably does not take long to resolve, or at least attempt to resolve, conflict.
> 
> I have to say, I am impressed. And hopeful for you two.
> 
> Did you show gratitude for her transparency? She really set her defenses aside.
> 
> Going to be honest with you. Your saying this was the last chance sounded threatening. I understand that is your feeling, and it is always good to be honest about your feelings. But I think taking a step back from your hurt, and relaxing from the idea that she is on probation, could be helpful.
> 
> It sounds like you are expecting her to make the marriage work. Is she comfortable with that responsibility?
> 
> I know I would not be. Maybe I can project a little, just to show an alternative way of viewing this?
> 
> If I opened my heart like that, my husband would not follow up with a reminder that this was my last chance. That would make me wonder why I bothered doing it. He would just hold me and reassure me that we would work things out. He would say that while we had had conflict, we were learning and growing and that is just part of marriage.
> 
> Basically, he would take responsibility for the marriage. That would make me feel safe that I had shared so vulnerably with him. It would build my trust in him.
> 
> I just offer that as food for thought, KR. I am so glad for you, that so much was uncovered in such a shirt time. I think transparency is a powerful tool. I guess I would just like to see it met with compassion, understanding, and _commitment._


thankyou, jld for your advice and constructive comments. I have told her that this is a two way thing and admitted my faults over the years. I'll take on board what you have said, but I just want her to be aware that I am serious. She has placed the relationship in danger and needs to be accountable to an extent. I am willing to forgive, but hope that close comms and time together will heal and improve us. 

Flirting and secrecy get under my skin, she has said that she will be committed so that's a good base. She is totally different now. Time will tell if we can both build on this. I will not "rub it in" any more. We are taking things easy for a while and not looking too far ahead, one step at a time. 

Again thank you for your advice!


----------



## turnera

KR, I'd add one more piece of advice, now that you have communicated, set your boundaries, and are on the same page. I tell people to set up a 'state of the marriage' meeting for once a week, every two weeks, or once a month, in which you have a standing appointment to sit down together for about 15 minutes and just talk about how you feel the marriage is going. It's a grownup moment, one where you agree to be respectful and listen openly and come up with good solutions to any issues, so you can head them off before they put you two in opposite corners again. Just knowing that you'll have that meeting coming up soon allows you two to relax and enjoy the rest of the time.


----------



## knightRider

turnera said:


> KR, I'd add one more piece of advice, now that you have communicated, set your boundaries, and are on the same page. I tell people to set up a 'state of the marriage' meeting for once a week, every two weeks, or once a month, in which you have a standing appointment to sit down together for about 15 minutes and just talk about how you feel the marriage is going. It's a grownup moment, one where you agree to be respectful and listen openly and come up with good solutions to any issues, so you can head them off before they put you two in opposite corners again. Just knowing that you'll have that meeting coming up soon allows you two to relax and enjoy the rest of the time.


Sounds good, thank you!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Glad you feel better. Make sure you always talk and communicate better. Do yourself a favor, if the old rumblings or boundary breaking reoccur leave, don't go down the VAR route again.


----------



## norajane

It sounds like you two are on the right track for a healthy marriage! Great news!

Curious...do you plan to continue spying on her?


----------



## knightRider

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Glad you feel better. Make sure you always talk and communicate better. Do yourself a favor, if the old rumblings or boundary breaking reoccur leave, don't go down the VAR route again.


thanks. catch 22, how do I know if boundaries are broken without proof? Nothing wrong with the occasional snoop to verify. She has been caught by my snooping before, therefore I see it as justification for using it. 

In all honesty I would not mind my wife snooping on me as I have NOTHING to hide.


----------



## bandit.45

You will get no succor asking such questions of this crowd. Your best bet is to stop the spying, stop chasing her, start to work on emotional independence and start becoming the best man you can be while upholding your promises to the marriage. 

Again...if she wants to cheat on you there is not one damn thing you can do to prevent it. She will find a way. 

If she screws around on you, then you walk away knowing you did what you could. It's as simple as that. You have been here on TAM long enough to recognize the signs of cheating. You will know. 

I say give it another six months. See how it goes. If she does not get her attitude straightened out, if you see no signs she is working on herself and enforcing her own boundaries, then you can trip the D switch and be on your way.


----------



## tech-novelist

knightRider said:


> Yes, she earns about £10K more than me, not a whole load. Is it really always down to the $ ?


Not always, but frequently.


----------



## tech-novelist

lifeistooshort said:


> Physics, without a doubt. It involves all of the math plus physics.
> 
> I had to take almost all of the math involved in a math degree and then an extra math class to get ready for quantum physics, because you can't learn the math and physics together. Well you can but it's hard.
> 
> I didn't have to take statistics but still had to use it in quantum, because *study of particles you can't see involves a lot of statistics*.
> 
> There are things in math you learn but you don't know what they're for until you study physics or engineering.


Especially when the particles don't actually have an existence independent of observing them. :surprise:

BTW, I wanted to be a physicist when I was a child, but when I found out about the math I decided I'd rather be an actuary.

Then I found out that although actuarial math is interesting, the actuaries in the consulting firm I worked for didn't really do that much math, but spent their time writing letters to the insurance commissioner(s).

But they had already started giving me programming assignments to do because I was getting paid about 1/3 of what the actuaries were making, and I found that I liked programming better than what the actuaries were actually doing, so I switched to that.

And now by an amazing coincidence, about 45 years later I find myself writing a program that requires actuarial mathematics! So it has come full circle...


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

knightRider said:


> thanks. catch 22, how do I know if boundaries are broken without proof? Nothing wrong with the occasional snoop to verify. She has been caught by my snooping before, therefore I see it as justification for using it.
> 
> In all honesty I would not mind my wife snooping on me as I have NOTHING to hide.


Two times would be enough for me. There's a point where you need to be the bigger person and step off the merry go round. If you feel you need to break out the VAR again, it is NOT the same as checking messages or text records on occasion, it is time to go.

There's a fine line between "trust and verify" and obsession.


----------



## knightRider

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Two times would be enough for me. There's a point where you need to be the bigger person and step off the merry go round. If you feel you need to break out the VAR again, it is NOT the same as checking messages or text records on occasion, it is time to go.
> 
> There's a fine line between "trust and verify" and obsession.


How is it not the same as snooping on texts and messages?
Are all people who install spy wear obsessive?
I've given her 1 last chance and I should stick to it.


----------



## knightRider

Actually, phillybeffandswiss

you are right. This is going around in circles. I need to reconsider things. Trust is gone.


----------



## Omego

knightRider said:


> How is it not the same as snooping on texts and messages?
> Are all people who install spy wear obsessive?
> I've given her 1 last chance and I should stick to it.


The logic behind all of the spy ware tech as I've understood it is to gather information for legal proceedings. 
I'm not sure this applies to your situation, however I know nothing about UK divorce procedure.

I think the bottom line is that if you need to VAR her again, she shouldn't have the benefit of keeping you as a husband.

You'll know instinctively if she is hiding something. I would therefore say that in your case, VARing her is likely to turn into an obsession.


----------



## knightRider

Think I need a break from her really. That will give me time to collect my thoughts etc. 

Trying to figure how to do this. I cannot leave the house as it will imply that I'm guilty. I've asked her to go to her parents for the week but she said not until XMAS holidays and she will take the kids.


----------



## JohnA

Your right about going around in a loop. 

Consider other options: how a divorce will play out.
Post divorce life.


----------



## jdawg2015

knightRider said:


> Think I need a break from her really. That will give me time to collect my thoughts etc.
> 
> Trying to figure how to do this. I cannot leave the house as it will imply that I'm guilty. I've asked her to go to her parents for the week but she said not until XMAS holidays and she will take the kids.


She needs to understand that she has done damage to you. I suspect she sleeps well at night while you are on TAM trying to decide to stay or go.

Is she aware that you are quite serious about how you feel about her actions? I would tell her that it hurts you and that you feel disrespected. 

Tell her you need space and USE it. Tell her that you no longer trust her. And don't relent on any reasonable boundaries you feel should be in place.

If she's solid she'll wise up if not she'll placate you for a while and then revert back. So yes, some level of monitoring needs to occur.

You can put boundaries in place as a start, but if she doesn't really agree she'll break it. At least then there's no ambiguity if she f's up.


----------



## knightRider

jdawg2015 said:


> She needs to understand that she has done damage to you. I suspect she sleeps well at night while you are on TAM trying to decide to stay or go.
> 
> Is she aware that you are quite serious about how you feel about her actions? I would tell her that it hurts you and that you feel disrespected.
> 
> Tell her you need space and USE it. Tell her that you no longer trust her. And don't relent on any reasonable boundaries you feel should be in place.
> 
> If she's solid she'll wise up if not she'll placate you for a while and then revert back. So yes, some level of monitoring needs to occur.
> 
> You can put boundaries in place as a start, but if she doesn't really agree she'll break it. At least then there's no ambiguity if she f's up.


thanks, jdawg. Beginning to feel that boundaries are a waste of time with her now, she'll likely break 'em again. Maybe time away from her will work for us. 

Do you guys think it's worth involving the parents as they knew it other before marriage?


----------



## jld

Yesterday you seemed hopeful. Did something happen to change that?


----------



## turnera

Omego said:


> The logic behind all of the spy ware tech as I've understood it is to gather information for legal proceedings.


That's not how I understand it at all. At least not the ONLY reason for or logic behind it.

In a marriage tarnished by infidelity, it is a lifeline to sanity for the BS who decides to give the WS a second chance. IF my H cheated and I gave him a second chance, you can bet I'd be using all that technology randomly, and probably for many years, to ensure I'm not being taken for a ride again. 

Of course in the meantime, I'd also be working long and hard to improve my half of the marriage and expecting him to do the same.

But the spyware would be necessary for me, probably for many years. And to me, that's just one of the consequences of his choices and our decision to try again.


----------



## bandit.45

knightRider said:


> Think I need a break from her really. That will give me time to collect my thoughts etc.
> 
> Trying to figure how to do this. I cannot leave the house as it will imply that I'm guilty. I've asked her to go to her parents for the week but she said not until XMAS holidays and she will take the kids.


Depends on what kind of break you are talking about. If you are talking about a formal separation with one of you moving out, then you will be giving her carte blanche to hook up with other men. She will be able to use the excuse that the two of you were not "officially together", so she was able to f ck and s ck as many men as she can handle. 

If you are talking about a temporary time off from each other to get your heads together, like Christmas vacation, then that is probably okay, but you have to go into it with the expectation that you will be giving thought to what you want out of the marriage, and she will be working on what she wants in the marriage. And then the two of you will convene afterwards to agree on what you both want going forward. 

Problem is, I don't see your wife doing this while you two take a break. I see her doing exactly what she has been doing...nothing. 

I see her doing absolutely nothing. I see her talking big and acting little. I see her giving you excuses and obfuscation. Your recent posts intimate that you are not getting the assurances and actions that you need from her. 

It sounds to me like you have a wife who only does the minimum amount she has to do to keep a good feeling between you and her and nothing more. She may be a great wage earner, she may be a great mom, but as a wife and mate she is lazy and dishonest. 

Do you get the sense from her that she even wants anything close to an equitable partnership, or do you think she wants you to just fall in line with her agendas?


----------



## jld

She has opened up quite a bit. I would say that is a big leap of faith on her part.

KR, when is your next counseling appt.?


----------



## turnera

knightRider said:


> Think I need a break from her really. That will give me time to collect my thoughts etc.
> 
> Trying to figure how to do this. I cannot leave the house as it will imply that I'm guilty. I've asked her to go to her parents for the week but she said not until XMAS holidays and she will take the kids.


Guilty about what? 

Dude, you are showing NO power in your marriage. You ask her to leave and she just says no, but she WILL take a vacation for Christmas? Just grab your stuff and go stay somewhere else. And tell her parents why.


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> Yesterday you seemed hopeful. Did something happen to change that?


Hi jld,

lots of discussions and info to assimilate really. She told me recently that she went to restaurants with 2 guys behind my back, even though we agreed that we would not do this.

I agree jdawg that she needs to do more to show it won't repeat again. She has booked 8 sessions with marriage guidance through her work. She has admitted that she flirted with guys and apologised. So there is some remorse. She tells me she won't cross the line again, as this time she has opened up to me. Not sure if that's enough, but her being totally honest is a first step.

Think I'm still thinking things through, but I usually give people 2 chances. This will be her 3rd chance.


----------



## bandit.45

And stop the spying. First off you are no good at it. Secondly, it has not netted you the "smoking gun" you have been looking for. 

Other than one or two vaguely inappropriate messages between her and other men, you only have enough to prove that she has poor boundaries.... Nothing to prove she is actively cheating. 

Well, it has been established that her boundaries suck, and that she has done nothing to build stronger boundaries and to make herself into a safer partner. This fact is established. 

Personally, for myself, this would be enough for me to begin the process of divorce. Not because of infidelity, but because of incompatibility. I will go to the ends of the earth for the woman I love, as long as I feel she is solely devoted to me and our relationship. If a woman cannot make me feel like she will be a safe partner, then it is time to be looking at other options. She is simply not compatible for me.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

turnera said:


> That's not how I understand it at all. At least not the ONLY reason for or logic behind it.
> 
> In a marriage tarnished by infidelity, it is a lifeline to sanity for the BS who decides to give the WS a second chance. IF my H cheated and I gave him a second chance, you can bet I'd be using all that technology randomly, and probably for many years, to ensure I'm not being taken for a ride again.
> 
> Of course in the meantime, I'd also be working long and hard to improve my half of the marriage and expecting him to do the same.
> 
> But the spyware would be necessary for me, probably for many years. And to me, that's just one of the consequences of his choices and our decision to try again.


In this case, there was no infidelity found. 
Randomly checking phone records, internet history and whatnot to verify can be done in healthy ways but feeling the need to watch can quite easily cross the line into obsession and control.

I agree with the others, if it has gotten to the point where you can not trust then it's time to move on.


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> Hi jld,
> 
> lots of discussions and info to assimilate really. She told me recently that she went to restaurants with 2 guys behind my back, even though we agreed that we would not do this.
> 
> I agree jdawg that she needs to do more to show it won't repeat again. She has booked 8 sessions with marriage guidance through her work. She has admitted that she flirted with guys and apologised. So there is some remorse. She tells me she won't cross the line again, as this time she has opened up to me. Not sure if that's enough, but her being totally honest is a first step.
> 
> Think I'm still thinking things through, but I usually give people 2 chances. This will be her 3rd chance.


Wow, KR. Look at how much she has confessed to you. And she of her own accord has arranged for marriage guidance. And you have gotten an apology. She is really working to earn your trust.

So you are switching counselors, from Relate to her work marriage guidance service?


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> Wow, KR. Look at how much she has confessed to you. And she of her own accord has arranged for marriage guidance. And you have gotten an apology. She is really working to earn your trust.
> 
> So you are switching counselors, from Relate to her work marriage guidance service?


Probably use both. I am a bit split at the moment. She seems scared / upset this time, so maybe the last roll of the die.

I know this has thread has divided a few, with most advising me to split. I may do that. Initially, I'll stay away a few days just to "feel" how I feel.


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> Probably use both. I am a bit split at the moment. She seems scared / upset this time, so maybe the last roll of the die.
> 
> I know this has thread has divided a few, with most advising me to split. I may do that. Initially, I'll stay away a few days just to "feel" how I feel.


Why do you think she is scared/upset? Because you would like a separation for a while?


----------



## TAM2013

Your options are bleak but as follows:

1) Tell her to leave, keep the kids with you and she has all the ammo she needs to make your life hell because you're a mean, nasty ba5tard.
2) You leave, take the kids and she has all the ammo she needs to make your life hell because you're a mean, selfish ba5tard.
3) You leave, leave the kids with her and she has all the ammo she needs to make your life hell because you're a weak, abandoning ba5tard.
4) Stay and be a stupid ba5tard.

No wonder I never married.


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> Why do you think she is scared/upset? Because you would like a separation for a while?


think so


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> think so


KR, do you see how she put herself out there, and trusted you enough to completely open up to you, baring all, even more than a VAR could have told you? 

And your reaction was to tell her you want a separation.

Do you see how that could scare and upset her?


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> KR, do you see how she put herself out there, and trusted you enough to completely open up to you, baring all, even more than a VAR could have told you?
> 
> And your reaction was to tell her you want a separation.
> 
> Do you see how that could scare and upset her?


Yes, I can. But being open is a requirement for me not a nice to have. If I don't make her aware that I'm serious, there's a strong chance this will keep happening. 

Let's see how this goes, but I'm burnt out and she needs to show a change in the right direction. Sure I can help her, but the onus is on her due to her poor boundaries.


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> Yes, I can. But being open is a requirement for me not a nice to have. If I don't make her aware that I'm serious, there's a strong chance this will keep happening.
> 
> Let's see how this goes, but I'm burnt out and she needs to show a change in the right direction. Sure I can help her, but the onus is on her due to her poor boundaries.


Do you not think she is showing a change?

Or do you just need some time to be assured of the change?


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> Do you not think she is showing a change?
> 
> Or do you just need some time to be assured of the change?


Yes, there is a change. Just tired and hoping it won't re occur. 

thank you for your positive input, jld


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> Yes, there is a change. Just tired and hoping it won't re occur.
> 
> thank you for your positive input, jld


Are you concerned you are getting your hopes up, and you might be disappointed?


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> Are you concerned you are getting your hopes up, and you might be disappointed?


Yes, tired of previous false promises etc. The deceit pains, but she has admitted foul play. So you can see why I'm hesitant.


----------



## Blondilocks

Are you sure you want her taking your kids to her parents? Will you be going with her? Just asking because if she senses that you are going to file for divorce she might make it difficult for you to see your children.


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> Yes, tired of previous false promises etc. The deceit pains, but she has admitted foul play. So you can see why I'm hesitant.


Of course. Have you shared that, openly?


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> Of course. Have you shared that, openly?


Yes I have, friend.


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> Yes I have, friend.


Good. What was her reaction to hearing your concern?


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> Good. What was her reaction to hearing your concern?


She said that she wants me to be happy and not feel hurt. Wants to be with me and says this time it will be different. 

But, as you can understand, I have a doubt that I'm being played, so this is difficult.


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> She said that she wants me to be happy and not feel hurt. Wants to be with me and says this time it will be different.
> 
> But, as you can understand, I have a doubt that I'm being played, so this is difficult.


It takes time to build trust. That is normal.

Have you given her concrete things she can do to earn your trust?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

jld said:


> Good. What was her reaction to hearing your concern?


jld, you seriously need to STAY OUT of threads with any infidelity or betrayal by the woman!


----------



## norajane

3Xnocharm said:


> jld, you seriously need to STAY OUT of threads with any infidelity or betrayal by the woman!


There are many marriages that go through rocky times that DO recover and get stronger in the process. jld is trying to help this guy try to work through this rocky time with his wife rather than pushing him into a divorce. There's nothing wrong in trying to shore up a marriage through honesty and communication.


----------



## Blondilocks

3Xnocharm said:


> jld, you seriously need to STAY OUT of threads with any infidelity or betrayal by the woman!


It isn't possible because it scares her. Due to her position in her marriage she is very vulnerable. If she can convince one man not to dump his wife after she crapped on him, she will feel safer in her own world. This is only my opinion, of course.

jld means well, I believe.


----------



## knightRider

jld said:


> It takes time to build trust. That is normal.
> 
> Have you given her concrete things she can do to earn your trust?


Being open and boundaries nothing else. But she should be pro active in this. 

Apart from divorce, any recommendations people?


----------



## jld

knightRider said:


> Being open and boundaries nothing else. But she should be pro active in this.
> 
> Apart from divorce, any recommendations people?


Do you think she is _not_ being pro-active?


----------



## Blondilocks

You could pull a modified 180 and watch her actions. Or, get a collar and a leash. Seriously, there is very little you can do as it is all on her.


----------



## synthetic

Yet another poor bastard being misguided. 

See you on the other side KnightRider. I wish I had the time and energy to counter the bullsh1t you're being fed. But I don't. Unfortunately, it's going to make you feel very unattractive and miserable.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

knightRider said:


> How is it not the same as snooping on texts and messages?


You have chosen to work on the marriage, which is cool. You should have things in place to prevent the use of a VAR. All things should now be open. If you ASK for the phone, the password should be the same and no hesitation to give it up. Same with emails. No deleting anything with male contact. Etc etc etc.

So, you are no longer snooping because she knows.




> Are all people who install spy wear obsessive?


LOL. No.
If you are going on a third time catching someone doing wrong YES. 

Initially, I have no problems with checking a spouse with spyware, VARs and phone records. When it escalates to every 5 months it becomes snooping.You've caught her skirting or passing boundaries twice, move on if a third incident appears.


----------



## bandit.45

Nothing she does is going to make a damn bit of difference in the long run if you do not start working on yourself. Because, if you do not become a more grounded man, emotionally independent and unshakable, then you will continue to be unattractive to her. For whatever reason, at some point you became unattractive to her. Add the income disparity. Add her poor boundaries. Add her secretiveness.... 

Perfect storm.

You can be emotionally available for her and treat her well, but at the same time you have to become a man who she can respect. Doing the Sherlock Holmes stuff at this point in the game is only going to push her farther away. 

Read NMMNG and MMSLP and apply what you learned. Do the MAP. 

Work out and get in shape. Eat right. Be the best dad you can be to your kids. Take old hobbies back up that you let slide for the marriage. Go out with your own friends more. 

Do things for yourself. Take dancing lessons, martial arts, pugilism.... Let her see you leading your life and let her see that you can be just fine without her in it. Take the focus off her and put it on yourself. Become a mystery to her.


----------



## Blondilocks

Yep, the modified 180.


----------



## RoseAglow

KR, I've been thinking about your threads. Here are some extra thoughts for your consideration. 

I think you did a lot of things right in your situation. I think it was appropriate to VAR. By using the VAR and other snooping methods, you are able to have a pretty high degree of confidence that there has been no infidelity, but that your wife does have unsafe marital boundaries. 

Although I do think that 10 months is a lot, I can understand checking off and on, depending on what behaviors she was showing you. 

I think it's good that you communicated to your wife that the boundary issue is a deal-breaker for you, that you've tried to work with her, and you are now very close to breaking the marriage over it. She seems to now understand the gravity of the situation. 

So here you both are. She is opening up to you. I hope you follow Jld's lead here and really consider what she is saying to you. You have this moment with your wife that is more open than it has been in quite some time.

I would like you to also consider that your checking up on your wife had its own effect on the marriage. I am not saying that it was wrong to check; I am just pointing out that your behavior did affect her, because it affected you. You were not open with her, you were hiding something from her. You felt terrible, worried about what was going on, worried about what you'd find. She was not safe for you and you were not safe (e.g. Open, warm, secure, or loving) for her. The two of you were on not on each other's sides anymore. You were suspicious, wary, spying. I am not blaming you- many people would have felt like you did. All actions have an effect of some sort. You are colder so she moves away emotionally, she closes off to you and increases your suspicions, she accuses you and you accuse her. You react to her, she reacts to you, and so forth. This is a cycle that many marriages get caught in and often the marriages do self-destruct.

One of you has to stop the cycle; if you are willing to be that person, I think jld is an excellent guide. She can help you be a person who your wife will feel ok opening up to. She can also help you to get to a place where you can understand your wife's perspective.

As you can see, jld gets a lot of strong reaction from people, especially people who have experienced infidelity and/or divorce. They feel that her recommendations do not work at all when there has been infidelity. 

KR, you have done a lot of looking over a sustained period of time and have not uncovered any infidelity. I will also point out that male posters like MEM and farside have improved their marriages using her recommendations. I think her recommendations are very appropriate for you.

Once the two of you are able to be open and honest, you will feel like you're back on the same team. You can start truly working on the boundaries issue.

Personally, I used to have poor relationship boundaries. I had female friends, and I also had a ton of male friends. My closest friends tended to be men. I was even the Best Man at a hetero wedding, got to wear a tux and everything. 

In our early days of dating, my husband asked me if I would agree to some items that would help him while I was traveling (my job at that time was 80% travel). His first marriage had broken up due to his wife's infidelity. I was madly in love and they were small requests, easy to agree to and do, like "don't spend time in the hotel bar." He asked because he called once while I was having a glass of wine at a hotel bar. I didn't think anything of it. It was just a break between working at the site and working again later in the hotel room, and he and I were bar people at that time- we'd go out for dinner and drinks. There are people who would not have an issue with it, but my husband hated it. 

He said, "You've given me no reason to distrust you, I don't think you're picking up guys or anything. I just can't feel good thinking about you far away, having drinks in a bar with a bunch of businessmen, not after my first marriage." He was non-accusatory and my response was, "Sure, no problem!" From that point on, if I wanted a glass of wine, I brought it up yo my hotel room; if I wanted dinner at the hotel, I either did room service or sat in the restaurant. I met his initial requests out of care for him, but in my mind I considered it as a favor to him. (If he had been accusatory, I would not have considered it at all; I would have considered him as too damaged from his first marriage and not compatible with me.)

I made a mental change (and therefore also made bigger changes) after we were married. At that time, I started really reading up, especially MB, LS, and TAM, and I changed my boundaries out of my own self-interest. Once I started reading up, I saw them as protective measures and trust-builders, rather than controlling measures placed out of distrust.

Your wife very likely views your requests for boundaries as controlling measures placed out of distrust. There are many people who would share her view. She's not wrong, she just has a different perspective.

It's my hope that your MC can help clarify your perspective for her, and that she comes to share it. If you get the book His Needs, Her Needs, it spends some time talking about how boundaries strengthen and protect a marriage, as well as how to meet each other's Emotional Needs. People often recommend the book Not Just a Friends to help drive home the reason for tight marital boundaries. 

I think it is very important that the information on boundaries come from someone other than you. Spouses tend to resist being educated from their other spouse. I certainly thought that my H's concerns were unique to him, caused by his first wife. It took reading it from a few sources to change my mind about it.

I hope some of this long post was helpful. It's true that your wife may never agree to your boundaries. You might end up divorced, and if you do you'll survive. But I think that you're on the right path by trying to work with her. You don't want some other man/stepdad getting to experience half of your kids' remaining childhood unless absolutely necessary, right? If it comes to that, you don't want any regrets. You want to know that you tried everything. Stay on your path to minimize any regrets. Hopefully you and your wife will be in a much better place next December.


----------



## Omego

bandit.45 said:


> For whatever reason, at some point you became unattractive to her. Add the income disparity. Add her poor boundaries. Add her secretiveness....
> 
> 
> Let her see you leading your life and let her see that you can be just fine without her in it. Take the focus off her and put it on yourself. Become a mystery to her.


This is it, in a nutshell. VAR if you must but the advice above is spot on.


----------



## jld

You are such a compassionate, intelligent person, Rose. Thank you for sharing your own experiences. And so glad you joined this thread.


----------



## ButtPunch

RoseAglow said:


> KR, I've been thinking about your threads. Here are some extra thoughts for your consideration.
> 
> I think you did a lot of things right in your situation. I think it was appropriate to VAR. By using the VAR and other snooping methods, you are able to have a pretty high degree of confidence that there has been no infidelity, but that your wife does have unsafe marital boundaries.
> 
> Although I do think that 10 months is a lot, I can understand checking off and on, depending on what behaviors she was showing you.
> 
> I think it's good that you communicated to your wife that the boundary issue is a deal-breaker for you, that you've tried to work with her, and you are now very close to breaking the marriage over it. She seems to now understand the gravity of the situation.
> 
> So here you both are. She is opening up to you. I hope you follow Jld's lead here and really consider what she is saying to you. You have this moment with your wife that is more open than it has been in quite some time.
> 
> I would like you to also consider that your checking up on your wife had its own effect on the marriage. I am not saying that it was wrong to check; I am just pointing out that your behavior did affect her, because it affected you. You were not open with her, you were hiding something from her. You felt terrible, worried about what was going on, worried about what you'd find. She was not safe for you and you were not safe (e.g. Open, warm, secure, or loving) for her. The two of you were on not on each other's sides anymore. You were suspicious, wary, spying. I am not blaming you- many people would have felt like you did. All actions have an effect of some sort. You are colder so she moves away emotionally, she closes off to you and increases your suspicions, she accuses you and you accuse her. You react to her, she reacts to you, and so forth. This is a cycle that many marriages get caught in and often the marriages do self-destruct.
> 
> One of you has to stop the cycle; if you are willing to be that person, I think jld is an excellent guide. She can help you be a person who your wife will feel ok opening up to. She can also help you to get to a place where you can understand your wife's perspective.
> 
> As you can see, jld gets a lot of strong reaction from people, especially people who have experienced infidelity and/or divorce. They feel that her recommendations do not work at all when there has been infidelity.
> 
> KR, you have done a lot of looking over a sustained period of time and have not uncovered any infidelity. I will also point out that male posters like MEM and farside have improved their marriages using her recommendations. I think her recommendations are very appropriate for you.
> 
> Once the two of you are able to be open and honest, you will feel like you're back on the same team. You can start truly working on the boundaries issue.
> 
> Personally, I used to have poor relationship boundaries. I had female friends, and I also had a ton of male friends. My closest friends tended to be men. I was even the Best Man at a hetero wedding, got to wear a tux and everything.
> 
> In our early days of dating, my husband asked me if I would agree to some items that would help him while I was traveling (my job at that time was 80% travel). His first marriage had broken up due to his wife's infidelity. I was madly in love and they were small requests, easy to agree to and do, like "don't spend time in the hotel bar." He asked because he called once while I was having a glass of wine at a hotel bar. I didn't think anything of it. It was just a break between working at the site and working again later in the hotel room, and he and I were bar people at that time- we'd go out for dinner and drinks. There are people who would not have an issue with it, but my husband hated it.
> 
> He said, "You've given me no reason to distrust you, I don't think you're picking up guys or anything. I just can't feel good thinking about you far away, having drinks in a bar with a bunch of businessmen, not after my first marriage." He was non-accusatory and my response was, "Sure, no problem!" From that point on, if I wanted a glass of wine, I brought it up yo my hotel room; if I wanted dinner at the hotel, I either did room service or sat in the restaurant. I met his initial requests out of care for him, but in my mind I considered it as a favor to him. (If he had been accusatory, I would not have considered it at all; I would have considered him as too damaged from his first marriage and not compatible with me.)
> 
> I made a mental change (and therefore also made bigger changes) after we were married. At that time, I started really reading up, especially MB, LS, and TAM, and I changed my boundaries out of my own self-interest. Once I started reading up, I saw them as protective measures and trust-builders, rather than controlling measures placed out of distrust.
> 
> Your wife very likely views your requests for boundaries as controlling measures placed out of distrust. There are many people who would share her view. She's not wrong, she just has a different perspective.
> 
> It's my hope that your MC can help clarify your perspective for her, and that she comes to share it. If you get the book His Needs, Her Needs, it spends some time talking about how boundaries strengthen and protect a marriage, as well as how to meet each other's Emotional Needs. People often recommend the book Not Just a Friends to help drive home the reason for tight marital boundaries.
> 
> I think it is very important that the information on boundaries come from someone other than you. Spouses tend to resist being educated from their other spouse. I certainly thought that my H's concerns were unique to him, caused by his first wife. It took reading it from a few sources to change my mind about it.
> 
> I hope some of this long post was helpful. It's true that your wife may never agree to your boundaries. You might end up divorced, and if you do you'll survive. But I think that you're on the right path by trying to work with her. You don't want some other man/stepdad getting to experience half of your kids' remaining childhood unless absolutely necessary, right? If it comes to that, you don't want any regrets. You want to know that you tried everything. Stay on your path to minimize any regrets. Hopefully you and your wife will be in a much better place next December.


I agree with this. I do think you need to make a decision to divorce or give your marriage one last go. 

If you decide to give it one last go, give it 100%. Your wife has opened up to you don't shut her down. Make her feel safe to come to you.

Further down the road you feel like you need to buy batteries for the VAR. Don't bother and get your Lawyer.


----------



## jdawg2015

knightRider said:


> Hi jld,
> 
> lots of discussions and info to assimilate really. *She told me recently that she went to restaurants with 2 guys behind my back, *even though we agreed that we would not do this.


KR, I am not one to just tell somebody to blow up their marriage but the messages and now admitting to going out with other men?

This is classic trickle truth now. There will be more and you know in your gut you feel you have to muckrake to get the full info.

When a woman hides to her H that she went to dinner with another guy, that's a date. 

Get rid of her man. You'll thank yourself in the long run.


----------



## jdawg2015

synthetic said:


> Yet another poor bastard being misguided.
> 
> See you on the other side KnightRider. I wish I had the time and energy to counter the bullsh1t you're being fed. But I don't. Unfortunately, it's going to make you feel very unattractive and miserable.


KR listen to synthetic man. Your hearts getting ripped open because of your kids. But your sanity is worth something. And she is clearly at a point in life where she is cake eating.

Every office woman I know who conducts herself like she does ends up shagging another guy. Without fail. 

You definitely need to man up here. She figures you won't leave her so she'll say enough to pacify you. 

Even the space you are asking for she doesn't take you serious. Of course she'll wait until XMAS for space because she was going anyways so it's a vacation and she won't have to explain to people why you aren't there or she'll make up a story about you not being into family.

Do it right now to send a message to her. Involve family so they are aware as well. No rug sweeping.

This is not going to end well the path you are on.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> If you decide to give it one last go, give it 100%. Your wife has opened up to you don't shut her down. Make her feel safe to come to you.


KR, how would you feel about giving your wife one chance to come completely clean, without its automatically leading to divorce?

Meaning, if you hear she has had an actual PA or an EA, or, sadly, more than one, you will commit to not leaving her but working with her to restore the marriage. 

It would be a one time deal. She would need to tell you everything, or write it down, or both. But getting everything out that she can possibly remember.

You certainly do not have to do this. But you may not get the whole truth without some kind of amnesty offer.

And I am so sorry you are in this position.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> KR, how would you feel about giving your wife one chance to come completely clean, without its automatically leading to divorce?
> 
> *Meaning, if you hear she has had an actual PA or an EA, or, sadly, more than one, you will commit to not leaving her but working with her to restore the marriage.*
> 
> It would be a one time deal. She would need to tell you everything, or write it down, or both. But getting everything out that she can possibly remember.
> 
> You certainly do not have to do this. But *you may not get the whole truth without some kind of amnesty offer*.


 No, do not EVER make a deal like this one. This isn't court, it is your life. If you have to offer weighted deals to work through a marriage, then there is no marriage.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

BTW, private message weightlifter about his confrontation script. It has worked many times, especially with the information you have and she has given you.


----------



## jdawg2015

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, do not EVER make a deal like this one. This isn't court, it is your life. If you have to offer weighted deals to work through a marriage, then there is no marriage.


Yup. Definitely NOT the way to handle it.


----------



## knightRider

Okay, 

immense thank you to everyone for suggestions. I have no evidence of physical affair, yes lots of disrespect, lies and possible emotional affairs.

She is opening up to me and I will give her 1 last chance. I've noticed changes in her, so that's positive. Yes, she may be trickle truthing me, but let's see. Been married 18 years now with so much effort and love invested. 

We'll try counselling and hope that we can build on the lack of comms, ignorance and rudeness we have both displayed in the past. 

I have put a lot of time in my self, see my previous comments on Thai boxing etc and the way I have changed at work and with my mother / brother. 

I will let you know how things go. Thanks again to the community!


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## Omego

knightRider said:


> I have put a lot of time in my self, see my previous comments on Thai boxing etc and the way I have changed at work and with my mother / brother.


I didn't know there was a MIL issue? Anyway, it sounds like you're taking positive steps. I really hope you can save your marriage in a way that makes YOU happy.


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## jdawg2015

KR, when your W was out with other men and flirting she was definitely not investing love in you or your children.

My biggest advice is don't be the one doing all the work and having to tell her what should be common sense about boundaries.

She needs a LOT of counseling. My advice is out her to family.


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## knightRider

jdawg2015 said:


> KR, when your W was out with other men and flirting she was definitely not investing love in you or your children.
> 
> My biggest advice is don't be the one doing all the work and having to tell her what should be common sense about boundaries.
> 
> She needs a LOT of counseling. My advice is out her to family.


thanks, jdawg. For the time being, I'll see how MC goes. Yes, she's crossed the line, but I'd like to give impartial advice a go first. Of course family will find out if any more forms of infidelity occur. I don't want her or my families "hidden" agendas to influence our marriage.


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## Chaparral

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, do not EVER make a deal like this one. This isn't court, it is your life. If you have to offer weighted deals to work through a marriage, then there is no marriage.


Setting a trap and lying to a cheater doesn't count if that's what you have to do to get the truth.

Didn't she already say she wouldn't take a poly or is that another thread. Any way, if she confesses to lying and cheating, you're not obligated to stay no matter what you tell her. There are higher priorities than being honest with a lying cheat.


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## knightRider

Chaparral said:


> Setting a trap and lying to a cheater doesn't count if that's what you have to do to get the truth.
> 
> Didn't she already say she wouldn't take a poly or is that another thread. Any way, if she confesses to lying and cheating, you're not obligated to stay no matter what you tell her. There are higher priorities than being honest with a lying cheat.


No, no poly discussion. Yes, there may be more to come out of the woodwork yet, Chaparral. 

I'm keeping an open mind now, as this is the last chance. No more paranoia from me. I'll address any issues as they arise.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Chaparral said:


> Setting a trap and lying to a cheater doesn't count if that's what you *have* to do to get the truth.


It is "want" not "have" to me. You can set traps and still not lie. We all have different moral lines, if lying works for you or KR go ahead I won't fault him except to point out, he is the one who has alluded to his moral lines all through his various posts. I tailored my answer off his REPEATED comments of breaking boundaries, after agreement, which is lying and her outright lying bothering him to the point of divorce.

Anyway, she needs IC more than MC to me. You can't fix a marriage, when your wife is CONSTANTLY out seeking validation from other men. This will not change in MC or with you fixing your side of the street.


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## jdawg2015

knightRider said:


> I'm keeping an open mind now, as this is the last chance. No more paranoia from me. I'll address any issues as they arise.


KR, you know what you want. You know what is reasonable. 

Don't sacrifice your happiness. 

Your W definitely has issues. It's good that you are doing things for yourself.

But make sure she REALLY understands where things are at and this this is not something that will just blow over. Does she understand how serious you are about splitting or does she think you are bluffing and will relent/rug sweep?

These subtle points are what make the difference between success and failure in these kinds of things. Don't fall into the trap of she gives you a tiny nugget so you think she'll just change over night. 

Has the counsellor made suggestions to her about her interactions with other men?

In my case with my exF we went to two counsellors. Both ended up telling her that she was "stepping across boundaries that even the most secure me would accept". 

Unfortunately marriage counsellors can do as much harm as good depending on who you get.

Keep us posted.


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## knightRider

thank you, jdawg. 

I've got to the point where I don't really care if she breaks the boundary again. Yes, if she can maintain a marriage then great, if not, I cannot be the sucker any more. 

It's funny how abstract things can affect you in this way. For example, doing Thai boxing has taught me to stand up for myself, be aware and have self respect. I can take a punch to the jaw, bruise my thigh etc, but still feel confident. So I apply this to life now. If she beats me once or twice, then fine, I'll take it. But now it's beyond that. If this happens the third time, I'll get out of the ring as I don't want to hurt her any more and I have self respect.

Yes, marriage counsellors can be poo. She appears to have changed, shows that is is scared, so let's see. Ex Mr Nice Guy will not be here the third time. There are other fish I can catch, who will behave respectfully.

Wow, such much verse, buddies :wink2:


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## knightRider

Update for the last few days.

We've spent a few hours talking and opening up about feelings and the past. I found a few relationship videos on You tube and we watched them together and discussed the topics. Wife has apologised for some of her behaviour and said that she would work on maintaining good boundaries. I told her that I would not rug sweep what has happened but I was willing to help her. 

We are trying to create time for each other. On Saturday we went to the "mall" and dropped the kids off at the cinema, so that we could spend time together, it was great. We are currently decorating one the our room's together, so we get a chance to talk and work as a team. Things feel better,but I am aware that actions are what we are judged on, so time will tell if she can back up her comments.

Waiting for her work's counsellors to get in touch with regards to the next session.


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## jld

That all sounds really good, KR. Very happy to hear it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## knightRider

thanks, jld :toast:


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## toomuchlove87

It is possible, coming from another woman, to sometimes forget certain things from childhood and remember them later when talking to someone else. I have done that with my old friends, and my husband has not heard the story before. However, I usually include him in the conversation so he can hear it too. 

I am speaking personally, but I would be offended if my husband asked me if I slept with someone else from work. As women it shames us because doing something like sleeping with a collegue usually gets you the Sl*t reputation. 

As for the overheard conversation... that is a bit odd... I would not be talking about boobs with another man from work unless if was pertinent to work. I don't know what your wife does for work, but it obviously doesn't circle around boob jobs. Also, why are they talking about living expenses in the UK? Why weren't you included in this conversation? I mean you're obviously there or was she on the phone? 

She got upset and swore at you, that isn't cool.. I have sworn at my husband when I was mad and always apologized because it is very immature. She needs to apologize to you for swearing at you, especially when you were just asking an honest question. 

I would explain your point of view to her, tell her why her swearing at you was insulting or how it made you feel, and also express your uncomfortableness about her conversations with her colleague. Just like guys are not mind readers we aren't either.. we don't know what you're thinking or what upsets you until it upsets you.

Hope this helps you in some way


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## knightRider

Update.

Been reading further into No More Mr Nice Guy. What a book. It's seems like it's written for me :smile2:

It dawned on me that some of the arguments that I have with the Mrs are down to me trying to control her. Now it may sound silly but I did not realize this until I read a chapter in the book. This behaviour is usually a result of me triggering. 

Going forward, I will try and focus on the positive. I'm not rug sweeping but taking advice from the book. Also, I have no evidence of an affair, poor behaviour yes. 

I do not want to control her, I have boundaries, she has now given me her boundaries. We are booked for councelling on Monday.


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## turnera

Awesome! Another convert! Use it well.


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## convert

knightRider said:


> Update.
> 
> Been reading further into No More Mr Nice Guy. What a book. It's seems like it's written for me :smile2:
> 
> *It dawned on me that some of the arguments that I have with the Mrs are down to me trying to control her.* Now it may sound silly but I did not realize this until I read a chapter in the book. This behaviour is usually a result of me triggering.
> 
> Going forward, I will try and focus on the positive. I'm not rug sweeping but taking advice from the book. Also, I have no evidence of an affair, poor behaviour yes.
> 
> I do not want to control her, I have boundaries, she has now given me her boundaries. We are booked for councelling on Monday.


Just keep in mind NOT to confusing good strong boundaries with being controlling.
and I would not tell your wife this, she might take it and run with it (use it in future as ammunition)


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## jld

Your openness is the key to your success, KR. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## knightRider

jld said:


> Your openness is the key to your success, KR.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks.

I've nearly come to the end of the road in this relationship, tired etc.
I'll try and give humility and openess a chance. That book has really helped me. I've never felt more confident.


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## norajane

convert said:


> Just keep in mind NOT to confusing good strong boundaries with being controlling.
> and I would not tell your wife this, she might take it and run with it (use it in future as ammunition)


Trust me, she's already had the thought that he's being controlling.


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## convert

norajane said:


> Trust me, she's already had the thought that he's being controlling.


agreed

though he should not agree with her

enforcing/reinforcing boundaries is a fine line


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## jdawg2015

convert said:


> agreed
> 
> though he should not agree with her
> 
> *enforcing/reinforcing boundaries is a fine line*


Nope, when a boundary is crossed there is nothing to debate, when violated then the consequence, up to and including divorce, get put into action.

In a case like other men, flirting, there is not a fine line. You either cross it or you don't.

This issue is that often even when boundaries are crossed the betrayed doesn't follow up with action.


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## convert

jdawg2015 said:


> Nope, when a boundary is crossed there is nothing to debate, when violated then the consequence, up to and including divorce, get put into action.
> 
> In a case like other men, flirting, *there is not a fine line*. You either cross it or you don't.
> 
> This issue is that often even when boundaries are crossed the betrayed doesn't follow up with action.


I meant that some people see a fine line between controlling behavior and enforcing boundaries.
I don't see it that way but others do.

and is it really worth it if you have to constantly try and enforce boundaries?


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## knightRider

jdawg2015 said:


> Nope, when a boundary is crossed there is nothing to debate, when violated then the consequence, up to and including divorce, get put into action.
> 
> In a case like other men, flirting, there is not a fine line. You either cross it or you don't.
> 
> This issue is that often even when boundaries are crossed the betrayed doesn't follow up with action.


Agree with you, jdawg2015. 

She has met men behind my back for lunch, twice, or so she says. I'm willing to let these go. However, if it happens again then I'm out and she is aware of this.


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## jdawg2015

convert said:


> I meant that some people see a fine line between controlling behavior and enforcing boundaries.
> I don't see it that way but others do.
> 
> and is it really worth it if you have to constantly try and enforce boundaries?


Not at all controlling. Enforcing a boundary is for yourself. Wife/husband texting/flirting/sleeping with someone else, you remove yourself and walk away. 

As to worth, you are stating exactly the problem many have. If you are accepting someone that's crossing your personal boundaries over and over then you aren't enforcing a boundary to begin with. Effective enforcement is after the first time you act. If that means ending the relationship, so be it. 

What happens about the controlling BS, is that when you tell your spouse that if you continue with X, I will do Y, they of course feel it's controlling because at that point they have to make a choice. 

Nothing like a glass of ice water on the head then they realize it's no longer a one-sided deal.

Knightrider thread is a case of his wife repeatedly exceeding a boundary. Only now when he finally said either stop or I'm gone does his W get any message. I did the same thing with my exFiance before I cut her lose. Let is go too long and by the time she realized she was about to lose me, big shocker all the sudden she figured out I wasn't bluffing but the damage was too much....


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## jdawg2015

knightrider, how you doing man?

Any good news to report?


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## knightRider

thanks, jdawg2015

Yep, things feel much better. Had 3 more councelling sessions. We've explored some of our gripes, upbringing, parents etc. All these things affect who we are as adults. 

Wife is more "into me" now, likes me to spent time with her and even gets peed off if I don't hang out with her. We have less arguments now and even when we have a disagreement there is more flexibility to resolve issues than before. Let's see how we go.

On the down side, my job looks at risk due to out-sourcing, so I'm starting to gear myself for interviews when I'm ready. Hopefully, I can get a reasonable redundancy payout and look for something else.


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## jld

knightRider said:


> thanks, jdawg2015
> 
> Yep, things feel much better. Had 3 more councelling sessions. We've explored some of our gripes, upbringing, parents etc. All these things affect who we are as adults.
> 
> *Wife is more "into me" now, likes me to spent time with her and even gets peed off if I don't hang out with her. We have less arguments now and even when we have a disagreement there is more flexibility to resolve issues than before. *Let's see how we go.
> 
> On the down side, my job looks at risk due to out-sourcing, so I'm starting to gear myself for interviews when I'm ready. Hopefully, I can get a reasonable redundancy payout and look for something else.


I am so glad to hear this update, KR, aside from the job situation, of course. I am so pleased to hear that things are going better with your wife. So happy for you. 

Best wishes on finding work quickly. And I think you mentioned your wife has a good job, so that is a fortunate resource, too.

All the best to both of you. 

One more thought: You may want to share how you and she turned the situation around with other struggling folks on TAM, as you have time. Many can benefit from your experience.


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## knightRider

thanks, jld

yes I will try and give more details soon.


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## knightRider

We've had 3 therapy sessions, with therapy provided by wife's work:

First session summary
---------------------
We were asked to sit face to face, strange as Relate has us facing the therapist. We were asked to look at each other when we spoke and to let ourselves go.

I spoke about the times that wife had gone behind my back with other men for lunch. Therapist was surprised to hear this. She put my wife on the spot and wife admitted she was wrong. Therapist said that if I loved my wife, I would trust her. I disagreed with this and mentioned wife's other actions like locking her computer, that made me paranoid. 

I could see that something was getting through to my wife from her expression. There's something powerful in discussing issues in front of someone impartial.

Wife said that she wanted things the way they were before when I trusted her without question. I said that I was a changed person and now I understood the dangers of interactions with the opposite sex and that boundaries were essential. 

Therapist stressed that openess was the way forward and it was good that we were working on improving things. 

More to follow...


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## Spotthedeaddog

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Or she's annoyed that he's trying to start sh*t that doesn't matter and _he's _trying to bully her by invading her privacy and questioning her about her past.
> 
> She's not comfortable enough with him to share details from her childhood with.
> He's recording her personal conversations and analyzing them.
> He's questioning who she has slept with in the past, maybe she's shared little things before that gave him RJ and he couldn't handle it so she's refusing to get into it again....
> 
> This is not a healthy marriage, why would she want to share anything with him in the state that it is? So he can use it as more ammo against her? F*ck that. And yes, I used a swear word.


Not comfortable enough to share honesty and openess about her life?

This is the guy who has promised, and received promises about spending the rest of her life, and sharing everything including bed and children with !
If she didn't "feel comfortable enough with sharing her past" then WTF was she doing accepting such a massive equality contract with him for??


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## knightRider

Been a long time, thought that I would update. Also had login problems...

Things are much better now. I feel more confident generally, counselling helped. 
Relationship with my wife is stronger, she respects me now and we have a good time together.

Many of my past behaviours were linked to the way I was brought up. Through counselling and reading books, I realize that I've been bullied by my mum as I grew up. This has affected the way I behave.

My wife is not snapping at me as she's seen changes to how I react to life in general. I don't shout and boil up any more - things that my mum used to do to me. I feel less paranoid. 

We seem to be more in sync with each other as trust has returned and we are open. 
It's taken time to improve things. A mixture of reading, counselling, listening and spending time together have worked.


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## jld

knightRider said:


> Been a long time, thought that I would update. Also had login problems...
> 
> Things are much better now. I feel more confident generally, counselling helped.
> Relationship with my wife is stronger, she respects me now and we have a good time together.
> 
> Many of my past behaviours were linked to the way I was brought up. Through counselling and reading books, I realize that I've been bullied by my mum as I grew up. This has affected the way I behave.
> 
> My wife is not snapping at me as she's seen changes to how I react to life in general. I don't shout and boil up any more - things that my mum used to do to me. I feel less paranoid.
> 
> We seem to be more in sync with each other as trust has returned and we are open.
> It's taken time to improve things. A mixture of reading, counselling, listening and spending time together have worked.


Wow, sounds great. Good for you for making those helpful changes!

And great for your kids that their mom and dad have worked things out. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## knightRider

jld said:


> Wow, sounds great. Good for you for making those helpful changes!
> 
> And great for your kids that their mom and dad have worked things out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thanks, jld. If both parties are willing to change and understand each other then things can work in the long term.


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## Altair

Is she still locking up her phone and being secretive about personal issues, and do you still VAR her? Does she still go out to lunch with other guys?


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## knightRider

Altair said:


> Is she still locking up her phone and being secretive about personal issues, and do you still VAR her? Does she still go out to lunch with other guys?


No phone locking
She's Open
I don't VAR her
Don't know if she goes to lunch with other guys, but I did var here for a few months with no evidence.

Unless I find suspicious behaviour, I'm not going to snoop on her.


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