# What if there was a need for a military draft and your son had to be drafted?



## ddetr435

How would you feel? It would affect 20 year olds primarily 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoF

Unless we get invaded or there is War similar to World War 2 (the last REAL war this country fought)........there is no way in hell, over my dead body.

America doesn't fight for freedom, we fight for resources and business reason (mostly to support our Military complex).

Eich was right....

Eisenhower's Military-Industry Complex Warning, 50 Years Later : NPR

I will not fight or let my sons fight for corps/business.....and we all know politicians work for them LONG before they work for this country/public.


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## happy as a clam

Interesting topic...

My dad, who fought 3 tours in Vietnam, told my mom in 1974 (as my oldest brother was nearing his 18th birthday) that we would move to Canada before he would EVER let my brother get drafted into that h*ll zone.

I agree with DoF... U.S. invasion or REAL war is one thing... sending our sons to clean up someone else's mess is another.

I come from a long line of military family members. Your question is very thought-provoking.


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## 6301

I got drafted the beginning of November of 1966 during the Vietnam war.

I came home and my parents were sitting at the kitchen table when I came home and my Mother said, "You got something in the mail and I saw this brown manilla envelope on the table and the return address was department of the army.

I often wondered if they really said "greetings" and when I opened it up, well, there it was and they told me to report to the federal building on the 30th of November.

My parents were all upset and I wasn't because I knew that it was going to happen sure as God made little green apples and my mum said "what are you going to do" and I said that there isn't anything I can do and we all knew it was going to happen.

I went. Went to Vietnam, did my bit and the sad part of all of it is that there's a monument in Washington DC with 56,000+ names on that wall of people that didn't come back and IMO should have had a long and happy life. It was a waste of good lives for nothing. Nothing. I'm 66 years old and I'm still pissed off because of it.


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## Anonymous07

ddetr435 said:


> How would you feel? It would affect 20 year olds primarily
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Terrified. 

I come from a military family(both grandpas, step-grandpa, cousins, etc. all served), but honestly I would hate for my son to go in(because of his safety). If I felt like the war was justified, I think I could be okay with it, but otherwise, we may run off to Mexico. My husband was born and raised in Mexico, so my son and I can get dual citizenship through him.


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## DoF

Funny, I have 0 military family.

I simply have logic? It doesn't take much intelligence to figure out what is going on when we go to war. 

America NEEDS war to sustain it's economy. Imagine this economy without Weapon, Security/Mercenary, military equipment etc companies.

I'm not sure if America would stay afloat to be honest......we are talking millions of jobs. 

Can one blame them too? They do need business!!!! It's nice when one can pay politicians to create it!

Perfect business case....

And then you have history and actions from our government. They tell you our soldiers are heros, yet they pay them CRAP to dedicate their life to military/this country. When they get back they are ignored and left behind (even when injured).

At the same time, they pay these mercenary "contractors" 125-150k a year and they don't even have to comply to any laws. How nice.

I'm sorry but based on actions, our governments treats our heros as SLAVES.

Pathetic and embarrassing....

It blows my mind that people are still signing up for military and draft hasn't been pushed down our throat.....


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## coffee4me

ddetr435 said:


> How would you feel? It would affect 20 year olds primarily
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I come from a military family and my reaction would be what I was taught about all difficult life situations , "svck it up and do what you have to do". 

That being said: if my son felt he had to flee to Canada OR if my son felt he had to go to War. Either way I'd svck it up and support his decision.

My gut tells me he'd go to War.


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## Married but Happy

There was discussion of reintating the draft not many years ago after Desert Storm, when our kids would have been affected. They had the option of activating their dual citizenship and emigrating legally, if they wished. If they stayed, I suggested they enlist in a service of their choice as officer candidates, and as all were highly intelligent, they could probably have gotten good assignments with the least exposure to harm. I personally disagree with our military adventurism as it has generally done far, far more harm than good to this country and to the countries we invade (often for bogus reasons, other than commercial interests, as some have said).


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## GTdad

Mine is a military family. Not career, but most of us have done some time in the enlisted ranks. My oldest son wanted to do the same, and while I supported him, I can't tell you the sigh of relief I breathed when he opted for the Coast Guard instead of the Marines or army.

Do I want my sons (or daughters, conceivably) _drafted_ to fight in a war along the lines of Vietnam or Iraq or any one of a number of disputes we've gotten involved in for bad reasons? Hell to the no.


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## DoF

To me, it all seems like the world's greatest robbery. They take future tax money that we haven't even paid yet or simply print more, go to war under some BS pretext, and hand the money over to military sector.....we are talking BILLIONS.

America is being scammed and we are all watching it happen under our nose.

Nobody seems to care.....

Where does it end? :scratchhead:


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

My kid's in the military, in a position designed to keep us away from wars.

Before throwing stones, think hard. Would you really want someone else filling that position? Someone who was willing to lie to move up in the ranks?

My other son, who is a pacifist at heart, except when gaming (haha) occasionally at the teen center, has medical conditons that would prevent him from being drafted.


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## over20

I would hate it. Our son (18) has said though, that he would be honored to fight.


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## DoF

over20 said:


> I would hate it. Our son (18) has said though, that he would be honored to fight.


for what?

I would interpret that as "he would be willing to kill for no apparent cause".

Great time for some life lessons....


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## SpinDaddy

Well I’m a strong believer in serving your country, that is a tradition within my family, and one I hand to both my children. On-the-other-hand, I am not a fan of military intervention, war and armed conflict.

I can’t help but think sometimes, that if the draft were re-enacted (for both men and women this time) that our nation might regain a more somber and realistic appreciation when we commit upfront to such conflict. 

I don’t believe we think on a collective national basis just what it means when we hear on the news “the administration is committing troops to such and such” the way we did 50, 60, 100 years ago. We seem appropriately eager to honor those men and women who serve but we don’t seem to care up front – and I wonder if that’s because so many of us have no skin in the game.

I also worry about the whole unmanned drone thing. Civilian contractors operating tools of war in a military context. Nothing good has ever come with nations that have engaged mercenaries to carry out these endeavors – it is again, the notion of the citizenry (the “we” in “We the people”) having some skin in the game.


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## 6301

DoF said:


> for what?
> 
> I would interpret that as "he would be willing to kill for no apparent cause".
> 
> Great time for some life lessons....


 For what. I understand you on that. The way things have shaped up in today's world, it's too easy to have a war.

Before it took 5o bombers to blow up a factory and now all you need is one with smart bombs and you can put that bomb on some guys lap when he's sitting on the toilet. 

IMO, before your raise your fist in anger and send some man or woman off to fight for a barrel of oil or to replace one half ass dictator with another, than this country better learn to find other ways to get their point across because I personally am tired of seeing this country losing too many good young people.


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## Theseus

DoF said:


> Unless we get invaded or there is War similar to World War 2 (the last REAL war this country fought)........there is no way in hell, over my dead body.
> 
> America doesn't fight for freedom, we fight for resources and business reason (mostly to support our Military complex).



That's ridiculous, you are about 10 years behind on the news. People were shouting "no blood for oil" when we went into Iraq, both times. And both times, we didn't take the oil.

And resources certainly wouldn't explain why we went into Afghanistan. Or Haiti. Or Serbia. Or Somalia. Or 90% of all the other places the US military has gone. 

Now back to the draft. There hasn't been a draft since 1973, and it's unlikely we would have one again for anything other than WWIII. For one thing it wouldn't be just our sons, *but our daughters too*. Thanks to feminist lobbying, the military is now slowly opening up all combat jobs to women, and so it would be impossible from a Constitutional standpoint to keep women out of the draft in any future war. 

Personally, I feel like if your country calls you to fight, it's your duty to go. If you oppose the war, then either get non-combat job (like a medic) or stay and face the music (like Muhammed Ali did). But fleeing to Canada is the coward's way out. 

I don't have sons, but I have two daughters, and if they had to serve in wartime I would be as proud of them as I could possibly be. 

Disclaimer: I am currently in the Army, and have been for 21 years.


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## Theseus

6301 said:


> IMO, before your raise your fist in anger and send some man or woman off to fight for a barrel of oil or to replace one half ass dictator with another, than this country better learn to find other ways to get their point across because I personally am tired of seeing this country losing too many good young people.


No one wants to lose good young people. That's easy to say. 

But what if another nation is losing too many good young people? Do we stand by and allow it? That's the hard part. 

When the US does intervene, they are criticized. When they don't intervene (such as in Rwanda, Darfur, Syria) they are criticized. So either way, they won't satisfy everyone.

BTW, when did we ever "replace one half ass dictator with another"?


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## Holland

I would HATE it if my kids decided to join the AF, I would be devastated beyond belief if they did it through choice. If for some crazy reason they introduced conscription in Aussie I would lock my kids under the house and refuse to let them go.

One of my kids recently won the ADF Young Leaders award at school, it made me feel ill because they choose up and coming teens that are the sort of people they want in the AF and give them a certificate, bloody brainwashing at a base level.


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## richie33

I come from a long line of military service, I myself am a Gulf vet. I hate the idea of the draft but I love my country and I volunteered.
I have two boys and I am raising them to love their country. If they came to me one day wanting to go into the military I would be proud but I would hate that they would be forced into it.


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## DoF

6301 said:


> For what. I understand you on that. The way things have shaped up in today's world, it's too easy to have a war.
> 
> Before it took 5o bombers to blow up a factory and now all you need is one with smart bombs and you can put that bomb on some guys lap when he's sitting on the toilet.
> 
> IMO, before your raise your fist in anger and send some man or woman off to fight for a barrel of oil or to replace one half ass dictator with another, than this country better learn to find other ways to get their point across because I personally am tired of seeing this country losing too many good young people.


Yep, not only that. We can't afford/have no money for war.

And getting into debt, printing money should NOT be an option....but it is, so they keep milking us

Then they tell people to not live beyond their means....RIIIGHT


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## DoF

Theseus said:


> When the US does intervene, they are criticized. When they don't intervene (such as in Rwanda, Darfur, Syria) they are criticized. So either way, they won't satisfy everyone.


I don't know if you noticed the pattern, but we only go to places that benefit us from territory/resource perspective (and especially those that benefit our Corps etc).

We don't go to war for moral reasons, we go to war for BUSINESS reasons.

Rwanda, Darfur, Syria has nothing to offer to our corps/business. Small fight (not to many weapons to be used)....small potato....no one cares.

And that's where I have a HUGE problem with our international policy.

Just like today we are allowing crazy **** to happen in Nigeria....no one cares.


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## ddetr435

Theseus said:


> That's ridiculous, you are about 10 years behind on the news. People were shouting "no blood for oil" when we went into Iraq, both times. And both times, we didn't take the oil.
> 
> And resources certainly wouldn't explain why we went into Afghanistan. Or Haiti. Or Serbia. Or Somalia. Or 90% of all the other places the US military has gone.
> 
> Now back to the draft. There hasn't been a draft since 1973, and it's unlikely we would have one again for anything other than WWIII. For one thing it wouldn't be just our sons, *but our daughters too*. Thanks to feminist lobbying, the military is now slowly opening up all combat jobs to women, and so it would be impossible from a Constitutional standpoint to keep women out of the draft in any future war.
> 
> Personally, I feel like if your country calls you to fight, it's your duty to go. If you oppose the war, then either get non-combat job (like a medic) or stay and face the music (like Muhammed Ali did). But fleeing to Canada is the coward's way out.
> 
> I don't have sons, but I have two daughters, and if they had to serve in wartime I would be as proud of them as I could possibly be.
> 
> Disclaimer: I am currently in the Army, and have been for 21 years.


What if your daughters didn't want to go?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous

Having 5 sons...I worry about this from time to time...I am all for a just WAR..but as so many have expressed...what is that.. if our sons were killed over something like Vietnam... Just imagining the outrage I / we would feel... as any parent..... It's unthinkable to me.....but I guess as things move along..if it ever comes to this, they will take our daughters too... 

For all the men & women who voluntarily join...I thank God for their service...their sacrifice...they deserve so much for their dedication....time away from their loved ones...what they stand to loose..even if the country's politicians are all corrupt, these men & women deserve our highest praise...for putting their lives on the line.


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## Theseus

DoF said:


> I don't know if you noticed the pattern, but we only go to places that benefit us from territory/resource perspective (and especially those that benefit our Corps etc).
> 
> We don't go to war for moral reasons, we go to war for BUSINESS reasons.
> 
> Rwanda, Darfur, Syria has nothing to offer to our corps/business. Small fight (not to many weapons to be used)....small potato....no one cares.


Once again, then explain why we went into Afghanistan. Or Haiti. Or Serbia. Or Somalia. Or 90% of all the other places the US military has gone. What "resources" did we get from all that? What territory did we gain? None. 



> _Just like today we are allowing crazy **** to happen in Nigeria....no one cares._


If your theory was true, we would definitely be involved. It might surprise you to know that we import almost as much oil from Nigeria as from ALL of the Middle East! 

DoF, I'm sure your heart is in the right place, but it sounds like you have been getting your information from Salon.com, the Daily Kos, or antiwar blogs. I encourage you to look at the issue with a wider aperture lens.


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## Theseus

ddetr435 said:


> What if your daughters didn't want to go?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That would depend on the reason, I suppose. But if they were adults it would be their decision, not mine.


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## DoF

Theseus said:


> That's ridiculous, you are about 10 years behind on the news. People were shouting "no blood for oil" when we went into Iraq, both times. And both times, we didn't take the oil.
> 
> And resources certainly wouldn't explain why we went into Afghanistan. Or Haiti. Or Serbia. Or Somalia. Or 90% of all the other places the US military has gone.


How would you know anyways. It's not like it would be news....

You have no idea how control is being split up....

Also, riddle me this. Why is it that we went to Iraq and all the other places.....when we COMPLETELY neglected countries that were going through genocide???

Our priorities are ALL wrong IMO. After World War 2, that should ALWAYS be a priority (innocent people dying)


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## Broken at 20

Being of the drafting age, and a male (too bad, if I was a girl, I could probably evade the draft) my reaction to a draft, would depend on the situation. 

For example, if North Korea went crazy (first thing my head went to), and got a nuke or something, and we needed to invade them or something, and they called a draft, I would go. 
And while I am in college, and I believe that is a reason people can use to not get drafted (not 100% sure on that though), if my number were to come up, I would volunteer. 
And my personal reasons for going, would be this: in WWII, it didn't matter who you were, if your number came up, you went. Students from Yale, and red neck mechanics from Texas all went. That is how it should be. None of this "If you're xyz, you don't have to go."
Because that is the rich, making loopholes for their sons to get out. And there is nothing anyone can say to change that fact. 


Now, if it was something stupid, I would never go. 
For example, if some terrorist group, in say...Kazakhstan (think that is a country) attacked us, and the military wanted a draft so we could invade Iran and...Turkmenistan because of some dumb ass reason, I would rot in jail before I go over there. 
I refuse to fight in some war that has no meaning, or in a war that only politicians and defense companies profit from.


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## arbitrator

*It would greatly depend upon what the action would be! And it would be his choice, but Dad probably would not like it!

I can only think back to my college days when I had to register for the draft to try to stay out of the Nam Lottery. I kept a 2-S deferment through my Senior year of college. Then I was reclassified 1-AA and sweated the 1974 lottery. My number was 100; the cutoff was 95. I had even looked at going to Air Force OCS.

While in college, I, along with a host of my frat pledge brothers, owe our lives to an older guy who had made two tours of Nam as a U. S, Marine. Frater Danny's mission, as he told us, was to monitor our grades and activities to keep us in school and not ever have to make that trip over there. If he ever caught us not studying to take an exam or doing our homework, well let's just say that we would have embraced tackling the likes of **** Butkus or Ray Nitscke first. Danny was a big old country boy who would have taken major league delight in kicking our a$$ if we didn't follow orders.

Having made those two tours in Nam, he said that there was absolutely no reason for us to go over there, and he said that it was his personal mission to our parents and loved ones to keep our a$$es out of there!

And guess what? Of the 15 pledge brother class, we had 12 graduate college under his tutelage! The other 3 were fortunate enough to have drawn some very high lottery numbers!

You can't convince me that God doesn't send people like Danny into our lives to offer protection to others!

And what about Danny? He went on to snag a PhD. in Psychology on the GI Bill. Let's just say that I totally owe my life to that man! 

God bless you, Danny, where ever you are!*


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## dedad

It is not all about killing or dying for the country. People with military backgrounds make great hires. I have known many in my career and they definitely have a leg up on those without the experience. These are folks that spent time in one of the branches of the armed forces, went to college (a bit older) and come in to the business world better prepared than most. 

Those that I have had the pleasure to work with, I found to be blessed with great Leadership and communication skills and most importantly blessed with great perspective on life and business. I definitely attach a lot of weight to military experience when hiring.

I am a bit off-topic here, but military service or any service is a great life experience and I would welcome it if my children ever went that route.

I do understand how you guys feel. As a parent we pour most of our life into our children. However, it is their life, right?

Besides, as they say, 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger'


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## 6301

Broken at 20 said:


> Being of the drafting age, and a male (too bad, if I was a girl, I could probably evade the draft) my reaction to a draft, would depend on the situation.
> 
> For example, if North Korea went crazy (first thing my head went to), and got a nuke or something, and we needed to invade them or something, and they called a draft, I would go.
> And while I am in college, and I believe that is a reason people can use to not get drafted (not 100% sure on that though), if my number were to come up, I would volunteer.
> And my personal reasons for going, would be this: in WWII, it didn't matter who you were, if your number came up, you went. Students from Yale, and red neck mechanics from Texas all went. That is how it should be. None of this "If you're xyz, you don't have to go."
> Because that is the rich, making loopholes for their sons to get out. And there is nothing anyone can say to change that fact.
> 
> 
> Now, if it was something stupid, I would never go.
> For example, if some terrorist group, in say...Kazakhstan (think that is a country) attacked us, and the military wanted a draft so we could invade Iran and...Turkmenistan because of some dumb ass reason, I would rot in jail before I go over there.
> I refuse to fight in some war that has no meaning, or in a war that only politicians and defense companies profit from.


 That's what a lot of people my age thought when the Vietnam war was going on. Why are we there? 

The only answer was to stop the spread of "them thar commies" and more lies, one after another. 

There was no pride in the nation. No one cared except for the ones that had loved on over there or who lost loved ones. 

The government wanted us to fight a war where the other side used everything thing they had at their disposal and we had to fight at least the way I saw it, with one hand tied behind out back.

It was a backwards country full of people that had known nothing but war from WW2 on and all they wanted was to tend their fields and didn't really care who was running the show just as long as there was no more killing.

They say if you want to kill a snake then you cut off it's head. We had all the firepower we needed and the way to end the war was stop fighting it in the south and just invade the north and be done with it. 

Soldiers on both sides would die along with civilians but that's war and if your going to do it right then you give everything you have to achieve victory but when the government and the military lie and the press finds out about it and reports the truth, you get a real mess and that mess was Vietnam.

What hurt more than anything is when you came home and you were wearing your uniform, it seemed to me that people took a dislike to you. I got assaulted by protesters at the airport no more than 3 hours from when I got back from Nam. Some guy who was a manager of a restaurant got me and a couple other GI's who were on the receiving end and locked the doors of his business. 

This still pisses me off to no end. Don't shoot the messenger. Go after the guy who started the mess. And to this day, the government still hasn't learned their lesson.


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## 6301

Theseus said:


> No one wants to lose good young people. That's easy to say.
> 
> But what if another nation is losing too many good young people? Do we stand by and allow it? That's the hard part.
> 
> When the US does intervene, they are criticized. When they don't intervene (such as in Rwanda, Darfur, Syria) they are criticized. So either way, they won't satisfy everyone.
> 
> BTW, when did we ever "replace one half ass dictator with another"?


 Shaw of Iran comes to mind. Batista in Cuba was another. Then there were the presidents of Vietnam we supported. Give me a little more time and I'll come up with a few more.


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## As'laDain

i dont have a son, but if i ever do and he gets drafted, ill teach him how to fight.


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## Garro

Considering how things are today, especially with the feminist movement and such, it would be more accurate to title this thread: "What if there was a need for a military draft and your son *and/or daughter* had to be drafted?". In any case, I have one child, a daughter 19. As much as I would hate it, I would be proud of her for going, especially if it were for something such as WWIII or a U.S Invasion.


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## As'laDain

personally, i dont think most people really think about what it is to go to war. its more than killing. 

at first, for volunteers, its a sense of duty, and sometimes adventure. after that, its a sense of obligation. we wont, or dont want to let our buddies down. they expect us to kill to protect them just as we expect them to kill to protect us. so, when a situation arises where we may be expected to kill another human being, we either kill or lose the trust that seems so vital to our survival. 

after a while, we have to make a decision. to fight for our country or to fight for the man next to us. 

if we disagree with our country, then we fight for the man next to us. most of us who choose to continue to fight have made that choice. the fight will continue regardless if we are involved, so the only thing worth fighting for is the guy next to us. we fight so that our buddies wont die. 

if my own offspring get drafted, ill teach them that. ill not teach them to fight to kill, but to protect their buddies and bring them home alive. they may have to kill to do that, but their goal should be protecting each other.


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## LongWalk

Theseus said:


> Once again, then explain why we went into Afghanistan. Or Haiti. Or Serbia. Or Somalia. Or 90% of all the other places the US military has gone. What "resources" did we get from all that? What territory did we gain? None.
> 
> 
> 
> If your theory was true, we would definitely be involved. It might surprise you to know that we import almost as much oil from Nigeria as from ALL of the Middle East!
> 
> DoF, I'm sure your heart is in the right place, but it sounds like you have been getting your information from Salon.com, the Daily Kos, or antiwar blogs. I encourage you to look at the issue with a wider aperture lens.


Theseus,

Both you and DoF have valid arguments to defend your position in analyzing America's motivations in going to war. The reasons have not been strictly consistent throughout our history. Our reasons for driving Spain out of the New World, were partly territorial, but we were bellicose. America had muscle and there was a decrepit old empire on our doorstep. Indeed, Haiti and all of Central America are so close to us that we feel a right.

Note we have never made much effort to fix Hati by pouring in billions of dollars, as has been the case with Afghanistan and Iraq.

To say that getting oil is our goal is wrong. We can buy it. Iran sells oil and that oil finances there state. America does not like countries getting wealthy or surviving on energy trade. That does not mean we want to seize their oil directly.

But the US did impose the Shah on Iran by organizing a military coup to overthrow a democratically elected government. So, US foreign policy does not always reflect out values.

Panama was simply land stolen by might.

There is a huge gap in the morality of ordinary servicemen and the people running the companies making billions off all that it buys.

There are way to many people in our military. The Marines alone have more soldiers, sailors and pilots than the armed forces most of the world's countries. Germany's entire military is smaller than the Marines.

The US military rank and file has become too large as an employer of people without education. This is sucking away resources from the civilian economy.

Personally I think all military should be based on draft and compulsory service so that all sections of the country are united around the people defending them.

When is the last time the son of Congressman fell in Iraq or Afghanistan?


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## jld

LongWalk said:


> There is a huge gap in the morality of ordinary servicemen and the people running the companies making billions off all that it buys.


:iagree:


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## DoF

LongWalk's post is on point.

Remember, pouring billions into Military, Supplies and Weapons yields profits to corps. Doesn't really matter how or where it's used. 

Tax Money or Printing > Government > Suppliers

As for "giving billions" to nations. I think it's a complete waste. 

Money doesn't fix issues, often it makes them worse!!! If we really want to help a country, teach them how to run government, give them food/things they need......mind you America has done some of that (especially in Afghanistan).....problem, it's no different than a drug addict, you can't help those country if they don't want to change. Based on history and current status, they simply don't want to change. Let it be.

Pakistan is a good example. How many billions have we given them? For what? And what has it accomplished? How are they better? Why do we even care? Why Pakistan and not 100s of other nations?

Besides the fact that AMERICA CANNOT AFFORD TO GO TO WAR (even in the 90s). Maybe it's just me, but if you can't afford something, ti shouldn't even be on the table up for discussion......NOPE, not with our government, then they wonder why people get into debt, they are just blindly following what our leaders do.

Also, America has WAY too many problems within to worry about other countries anyways. Let's focus on ourselves. If we were to spend all those billions on fixing REAL issues, we would be SO much better off. Unfortunately REAL issues don't make business sector money and do not support Military complex.

I like to use 9/11 analogy to prove my point. We spent Billions of dollars and lost thousands of lives afterthe horrible event on 9/11 (about 2000 people died that day).

America losses 3000 people on our highways EACH AND EVERY MONTH. Why is it that we haven't spent more money for DMV and improved Driver's education tests/procedures. Why isn't this issue even on the table?

I will tell you why, because there is no money to be made there.

You can apply the same thing to cigarets....alcohol....

How about the ****ty food we have at every corner and the health effects of it on our country? We know Healthcare is a HUGE issue, I don't see our government going after fast food joints and tax the crap out of them for selling crap?

REAL problems are being constantly ignored, in the name of profits. 

Our entire system is unsustainable. Where I work, I see companies that make billions of dollars on yearly basis being sold because profit margins are not good enough for shareholders/wall street. That's right, 3-5 BILLION a year is NOT enough.

And these people have our government by the balls.....

Sickening. And to think that this country is one of the best on this planet really makes our entire human race seem pathetic.

I blame the people first and foremost. We are way too easily blinded and too comfortable in our own skin to care about what's happening right under our nose. People know all this too, they are just not willing to sacrifice their oversized homes.......cars and stomach....amongst other BS to make this country better.

The only vote we have left in this country that's worth a **** is "where you spend your money". If we simply stop bying junk......cars every 3 years.......stop watching worthless BS they feed us on TV.......these companies will go away and not be able to control/pay our government.

If it was up to me, I would simply make legal bribery aka "lobbying" illegal like it should be. I would also go after each and every politician that received ANY money from ANY corp past 60 years and charge them with treason> lock them up. That should send a nice message to the future leaders/people of this country.

BTW, just the investigation would uncover all the big players in the game and show us exactly how and why the laws have changed and our policy abroad.

Business and government should be completely separated. Business has no morals and should play no role in domestic and international affairs.

Also politician should not be a career, it should be a privilege to serve this country.

People that do the biggest/worse crimes are getting away with it. Not even a slap on the wrist......nothing. They are simply running wild.


----------



## arbitrator

DoF said:


> *Also politician should not be a career, it should be a privilege to serve this country.
> *


*That's why I've always been a rather stringent supporter of Federal Congressional term limitations: 3 terms for the House ~ 1 term for the Senate!*


----------



## StarTrekFan

arbitrator said:


> *That's why I've always been a rather stringent supporter of Federal Congressional term limitations: 3 terms for the House ~ 1 term for the Senate!*


It's a good idea and even if it manages to pass as a law, Reps & Senators will find a way around it to keep it in the family. After the first term, Senators wife will run for office, then his children, brothers, cousins twice removed and so on....


----------



## StarTrekFan

DoF said:


> Also politician should not be a career, it should be a privilege to serve this country.
> 
> wild.


This is why I like the way how New Hampshire pays it's state legislators. They get $100 per year plus mileage allowance. Yes it is $100 a Year.

snopes.com: New Hampshire Legislative Salaries

As a consequence, what happens very few consider politics as a viable career and the ones who do generally do it for the right reasons. I am not saying it is perfect, but it's a definitely better than many other states


----------



## arbitrator

LongWalk said:


> *Personally I think all military should be based on draft and compulsory service so that all sections of the country are united around the people defending them.*
> 
> *When is the last time the son of Congressman fell in Iraq or Afghanistan?*


*That's usually not the case, since their Congressman "Mom or Dad" can largely procure appointments for them to the various Service Academies! And provided that they graduate, they more often than not, get preferential treatment in receiving some rather cush, non-frontline assignments! 

Unless, of course, that they voluntarily make a request for front-line duty!*


----------



## DoF

StarTrekFan said:


> This is why I like the way how New Hampshire pays it's state legislators. They get $100 per year plus mileage allowance. Yes it is $100 a Year.
> 
> snopes.com: New Hampshire Legislative Salaries
> 
> As a consequence, what happens very few consider politics as a viable career and the ones who do generally do it for the right reasons. I am not saying it is perfect, but it's a definitely better than many other states


I like that.

Heck, make all the states countries and get it over with. 

Our Federal government is worthless anyways and their laws often don't even agree with state laws. 

Let the fed government be some kind of "North American defines" or something and make sure they can defend North American if there is invasion.

All the other things should be up to states themselves. Everything but defense (which btw has not been needed since WW2, and minimally even then). 

Fed is too big and dipping fingers into crap they have no business in (schools for example....or healthcare etc).

They are worthless and ineffective, not needed at all.


----------



## ddetr435

Garro said:


> Considering how things are today, especially with the feminist movement and such, it would be more accurate to title this thread: "What if there was a need for a military draft and your son *and/or daughter* had to be drafted?". In any case, I have one child, a daughter 19. As much as I would hate it, I would be proud of her for going, especially if it were for something such as WWIII or a U.S Invasion.



what if it was an Iraq type war.




what if she didn't want to go? 


also, you bring up a decent point. Women say they want to start serving in combat roles but if they do then it no longer becomes constitutional to draft only men


----------



## 6301

Garro said:


> Considering how things are today, especially with the feminist movement and such, it would be more accurate to title this thread: "What if there was a need for a military draft and your son *and/or daughter* had to be drafted?". In any case, I have one child, a daughter 19. As much as I would hate it, I would be proud of her for going, especially if it were for something such as WWIII or a U.S Invasion.


 Problem is that if there's ever a WW3, it wont matter if you on the front line or in your home. Who ever starts losing is going to get desperate and wheel out the nukes and once that starts, were all toast.


----------



## Entropy3000

As'laDain said:


> personally, i dont think most people really think about what it is to go to war. its more than killing.
> 
> at first, for volunteers, its a sense of duty, and sometimes adventure. after that, its a sense of obligation. we wont, or dont want to let our buddies down. they expect us to kill to protect them just as we expect them to kill to protect us. so, when a situation arises where we may be expected to kill another human being, we either kill or lose the trust that seems so vital to our survival.
> 
> after a while, we have to make a decision. *to fight for our country* or *to fight for the man next to us. *
> 
> if we disagree with our country, then we fight for the man next to us. most of us who choose to continue to fight have made that choice. the fight will continue regardless if we are involved, so the only thing worth fighting for is the guy next to us. we fight so that our buddies wont die.
> 
> if my own offspring get drafted, ill teach them that. ill not teach them to fight to kill, but to protect their buddies and bring them home alive. they may have to kill to do that, but their goal should be protecting each other.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Ikaika

I know my oldest would never be drafted, so I am not worried about him. And, I know the only scenario for a draft is in time of war. I served in the military and understand the sacrifice, but having said that I would be conflicted if my youngest had to serve. It is not that I out right object to war, I honestly have to say it would leave me with a pit in my stomach. I probably would not sleep well till he came back home.


----------



## Entropy3000

drerio said:


> I know my oldest would never be drafted, so I am not worried about him. And, I know the only scenario for a draft is in time of war. I served in the military and understand the sacrifice, but having said that I would be conflicted if my youngest had to serve. It is not that I out right object to war, *I honestly have to say it would leave me with a pit in my stomach. I probably would not sleep well till he came back home.*


And of course this is how a parent must feel.


----------



## LongWalk

Comparison of German and US military here.

Germany has the 7th largest military in the world but they are very small compared to the US, which has almost 1.5 million active service personnel. Germany has around 180,000. 

The US could probably have much better defense capability with a smaller but more competent military.

At this point a draft is almost inconceivable.


----------



## LongWalk

My eldest daughter should have registered for the draft in Sweden, where we live, but she is hearing impaired so they never sent her the letter. But the Swedish military has no funds to train all the draft eligible young people. So they military is in practice volunteer and they do not take all those who want to serve.

Often young people who don't want to study join the military for direction in life, including training. But once they discover that the wages are relatively low, they quit.

Getting posted abroad gives the best pay.


----------



## DoF

LongWalk said:


> My eldest daughter should have registered for the draft in Sweden, where we live, but she is hearing impaired so they never sent her the letter. But the Swedish military has no funds to train all the draft eligible young people. So they military is in practice volunteer and they do not take all those who want to serve.
> 
> Often young people who don't want to study join the military for direction in life, including training. But once they discover that the wages are relatively low, they quit.
> 
> Getting posted abroad gives the best pay.


Yep, it pays lower than minimum wage. Take the salary and even add 4 years of free college (let's assume 100k for 4 years). 

If you count the time you spend working for military (remember, deployment counts as 24 hours a day!!!)......you are WAY below minimum wage and risking your life while at it.

But they paint pretty pictures of how great it is to join and be a hero.......


----------



## unbelievable

If the country needed to be defended, I would hope my son would volunteer and not wait to be drafted. If I wasn't too old or disabled to fight, I'd already be in uniform when he showed up to do his part. 

I do hope we don't bring back the draft because 70% of American males of fighting age would be about as useless in combat as teats on a boar.


----------



## arbitrator

unbelievable said:


> *I do hope we don't bring back the draft because 70% of American males of fighting age would be about as useless in combat...*


*Unless there is some sudden national emergency of unheralded proportions, I don't really see a draft ever coming back! But if it does, I greatly think that it will also include women the next time!
*


----------



## over20

DoF said:


> for what?
> 
> I would interpret that as "he would be willing to kill for no apparent cause".
> 
> Great time for some life lessons....


I meant he would be honored to serve and protect the US, if we went to war. A character trait I find very noble in a young man.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Hagel's Defense Budget calls for something in the vicinity of a 20-25% headcount reduction in the next ten years. Moreover, in practice, only about 15% of the armed forces is what you would call a rifle toting grunt. So even if there were a draft, and there never will be because no one wants to expand the Federal retiree and VA system that much, the probability of anyone being put directly in harm's way is 1 out of 7.


----------



## Ikaika

Runs like Dog said:


> Hagel's Defense Budget calls for something in the vicinity of a 20-25% headcount reduction in the next ten years. Moreover, in practice, only about 15% of the armed forces is what you would call a rifle toting grunt. So even if there were a draft, and there never will be because no one wants to expand the Federal retiree and VA system that much, the probability of anyone being put directly in harm's way is 1 out of 7.



However, if a draft were to be instituted, I think it would shed light on a bigger problem, 1 in 3 age eligible individuals would be disqualified because of their type 2 diabetes mellitus.


----------



## Entropy3000

LongWalk said:


> Comparison of German and US military here.
> 
> Germany has the 7th largest military in the world but they are very small compared to the US, which has almost 1.5 million active service personnel. Germany has around 180,000.
> 
> The US could probably have much better defense capability with a smaller but more competent military.
> 
> At this point a draft is almost inconceivable.


Understand that to meet comittments many many servicemen and women have to do tour after tour after tour.

But the military is not just about defense. Also realize that the reason many countries can have a smaller military is because of the US. Most Western countries count on it.

Like this or not. It is the pragmtic view.


----------



## Entropy3000

LongWalk said:


> My eldest daughter should have registered for the draft in Sweden, where we live, but she is hearing impaired so they never sent her the letter. But the Swedish military has no funds to train all the draft eligible young people. So they military is in practice volunteer and they do not take all those who want to serve.
> 
> Often young people who don't want to study join the military for direction in life, including training. But once they discover that the wages are relatively low, they quit.
> 
> Getting posted abroad gives the best pay.


Not so in the US. Often people join the military for an education. Not saying everyone.


----------



## Entropy3000

Just because :

I don't want to be a Green Beret

My dad was UDT in WWII.


----------



## Ikaika

Entropy3000 said:


> Just because :
> 
> I don't want to be a Green Beret



I actually went through the qualifiers to enter BUDS, one week before signing re-enlistments papers and head for Coronado island, I decided to get out, use my GI bill money and go to college.


----------



## the guy

I would start having more sons. Or at the very least keep trying to have more sons.
My thinking is...what are the chances of all my sons going to the same war and dying?

in private rynes case well then maybe.


----------



## Theseus

DoF said:


> How would you know anyways. It's not like it would be news....


I think we would have noticed by now if we were stealing oil from Iraq or Kuwait. 

In fact, if we just wanted the oil, we would have invaded Iraq and seized the oil fields, leaving the rest of the country to do whatever they wanted. 





> _You have no idea how control is being split up....
> 
> Also, riddle me this. Why is it that we went to Iraq and all the other places.....when we COMPLETELY neglected countries that were going through genocide???_


Each case is different. In the case of Iraq, there was a mandatory UN resolution authorizing the use of force if Iraq didn't comply with inspections. They didn't comply for almost 10 years. 

There is no such resolution over other countries like North Korea, for example.


----------



## Theseus

LongWalk said:


> Note we have never made much effort to fix Hati by pouring in billions of dollars, as has been the case with Afghanistan and Iraq.


Actually we have poured billions into Haiti if you look at the long term view. We went into Iraq & Afghanistan once. But we have gone into Haiti trying to save it countless times over the past 100 years. And that doesn't even include hundreds of thousands of Haitian immigrants that came to the USA. 



> _But the US did impose the Shah on Iran by organizing a military coup to overthrow a democratically elected government. So, US foreign policy does not always reflect out values._


That's true, but that was foreign policy, not war, and it was a long time ago. And the Shah was also still preferable to what followed...



> _Panama was simply land stolen by might._




Maybe you missed the part where we didn't actually take it. All we did was remove a dictator. We gave it right back AND paid for rebuilding afterwards. 



> _There are way to many people in our military. The Marines alone have more soldiers, sailors and pilots than the armed forces most of the world's countries. Germany's entire military is smaller than the Marines.
> 
> The US military rank and file has become too large as an employer of people without education. This is sucking away resources from the civilian economy._


Well, that's a different issue as well. 




> _When is the last time the son of Congressman fell in Iraq or Afghanistan?_


Plenty of them have served. But what do you think the odds of their deaths are today? Truth is, the fatality rate in Iraq and Afghanistan has been incredibly low. Currently, about *7000* total deaths in Iraq & Afghanistan, compared to *47,000* killed in Vietnam, or nearly *300,000* lost in WWII.


----------



## Entropy3000

drerio said:


> I actually went through the qualifiers to enter BUDS, one week before signing re-enlistments papers and head for Coronado island, I decided to get out, use my GI bill money and go to college.


Awesome. To both options you had.


----------



## Entropy3000

Theseus said:


> I think we would have noticed by now if we were stealing oil from Iraq or Kuwait.
> 
> In fact, if we just wanted the oil, we would have invaded Iraq and seized the oil fields, leaving the rest of the country to do whatever they wanted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Each case is different. In the case of Iraq, there was a mandatory UN resolution authorizing the use of force if Iraq didn't comply with inspections. They didn't comply for almost 10 years.
> 
> There is no such resolution over other countries like North Korea, for example.


We went to Somalia ... how did that work out?


----------



## 6301

unbelievable said:


> If the country needed to be defended, I would hope my son would volunteer and not wait to be drafted. If I wasn't too old or disabled to fight, I'd already be in uniform when he showed up to do his part.
> 
> I do hope we don't bring back the draft because 70% of American males of fighting age would be about as useless in combat as teats on a boar.


 That's total bull$h!t. If there was a war and they had the draft, you would have men and women being drafted just like years before and they would serve this country well and be good soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines 

They said the same crap when I was drafted back in 66 and we all did our part even though it was a unpopular war with no end in sight. We went and we were damn good and this was the era of hippies who went from one stage of their life to the next step. I lived it, I saw it and we did our job.

Think before you speak OK?


----------



## unbelievable

6301 said:


> That's total bull$h!t. If there was a war and they had the draft, you would have men and women being drafted just like years before and they would serve this country well and be good soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines
> 
> They said the same crap when I was drafted back in 66 and we all did our part even though it was a unpopular war with no end in sight. We went and we were damn good and this was the era of hippies who went from one stage of their life to the next step. I lived it, I saw it and we did our job.
> 
> Think before you speak OK?


 If I could find 20 year-olds who were born in 1946, and graduated a 1964 American high school, I'd take them all day long and most would probably make decent Soldiers. That's not our current selection pool.


----------



## 6301

unbelievable said:


> If I could find 20 year-olds who were born in 1946, and graduated a 1964 American high school, I'd take them all day long and most would probably make decent Soldiers. That's not our current selection pool.


 I heard the same hot air that your spouting coming from the WW2 and Korean war vets when I went. They heard it from WW 1 vets and they heard it from the vets from the civil war and the Spanish American war.

I got a feeling that if your one of our current selection then you may be right.


----------



## Theseus

6301 said:


> That's total bull$h!t. If there was a war and they had the draft, you would have men and women being drafted just like years before and they would serve this country well and be good soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines


I agree it's an exaggeration to say this generation would be useless. However, people are more obese today (black females in the US have an astounding *80%* obesity rate!!!), and somewhat fewer would make the cut than in the 1960s unless the military adjusted their standards.


----------



## 6301

Theseus said:


> I agree it's an exaggeration to say this generation would be useless. However, people are more obese today (black females in the US have an astounding *80%* obesity rate!!!), and somewhat fewer would make the cut than in the 1960s unless the military adjusted their standards.


 And if there was a war (less nukes) and there was a draft, then they would make all the adjustments to get their people in shape. There would be no other choice but until it happens, it's just speculation.


----------



## As'laDain

i think there is enough good young men in america to fuel a war. hopefully we dont find out in my lifetime.


----------



## unbelievable

6301 said:


> I heard the same hot air that your spouting coming from the WW2 and Korean war vets when I went. They heard it from WW 1 vets and they heard it from the vets from the civil war and the Spanish American war.
> 
> I got a feeling that if your one of our current selection then you may be right.


I have a feeling you served during Nam (and I am 110% grateful for your service). I also have a feeling you haven't served in the modern Army. I have been in since 1982. I will concede that you are more knowledgeable about military requirements of 1966. Would you care to assert that you know more about military job requirements of 2014 than I do? 
Despite your very honorable service, the military improved dramatically since we got rid of the draft. I don't know any serious-minded person who would argue otherwise.


----------



## unbelievable

Report Says 75 Percent of Young Americans Unfit for Military Service | Fox News


----------



## unbelievable

As a whole, the U.S. military is far better educated than the American population it defends. 82.8 percent of U.S. military officers in 2010 had at least a bachelor’s degree, compared to 29.9 percent of the general population. 93.6 percent of enlisted soldiers had at least a high school diploma, compared to 59.5 percent of America.


----------



## As'laDain

if we really needed men, those disqualifying conditions would stop disqualifying them.


----------



## unbelievable

https://chronicleofsocialchange.org...2013/05/Young-Adult-Justice-FINAL-revised.pdf

In 2010, 626,000 18-24 year olds were on active duty. About 2.7 million of their civilian peers were arrested in 2011. 

Of the 25% of civilians who were eligible to join the military, 65% of those couldn't pass the physical fitness test, according to LTG Hertling

Rising number of soldiers being dismissed for failing fitness tests - The Washington Post


----------



## GTdad

unbelievable said:


> As a whole, the U.S. military is far better educated than the American population it defends. 82.8 percent of U.S. military officers in 2010 had at least a bachelor’s degree


I'm surprised it's that low. I guess that most if not all are OCS, and I wouldn't have thought they made up that big of a share. Are they expected to get a degree if they want to get past O-2 or O-3? Maybe the number includes warrant officers?


----------



## Ikaika

As'laDain said:


> if we really needed men, those disqualifying conditions would stop disqualifying them.



I would disagree. Once you bring a person into the ranks with a pre-existing condition, you have to treat them (medically). The medical corps of the armed forces are already under staffed and would be ill-equipped to deal with the onslaught of obese and type 2 diabetics, let alone the plethora of other illnesses. 

As a side note we already see how the military is evolving toward the combination of high tech weaponry and small professional fighting units. Both requires a smaller military albeit one staffed by more sophisticated and better trained personnel. Under this scenario, a draft is unnecessary and counterproductive.


----------



## LongWalk

Entropy3000 said:


> Understand that to meet comittments many many servicemen and women have to do tour after tour after tour.
> 
> But the military is not just about defense. Also realize that the reason many countries can have a smaller military is because of the US. Most Western countries count on it.
> 
> Like this or not. It is the pragmtic view.


The US has a large number of bases around the world and they do provide the world with stability. Having a US forces on Okinawa is a deterrent to China beginning a military conflict with Japan over disputed territory. However, there is problem. The US does not have a position about the disputes. Merely having armed forces is not enough. There must also be a mission that is credible and to which we are committed.

Are we prepared to go to war over islands in the Pacific?

The US military has not always conducted itself well. On Okinawa there have been several incidents involving US service men raping local women. Here is a link.

The US preparedness has been badly harmed by Iraq and Afghanistan. This perhaps increases the risk of a draft in the long run.

The US allows non citizens to serve in return for which they become legal citizens. I don't think any nation should employ foreigners to fight for it. They are mercenaries, aren't they?

Machiavelli believes the US should return to state based militias instead the federal juggernaut. Intriguing.


----------



## As'laDain

drerio said:


> I would disagree. Once you bring a person into the ranks with a pre-existing condition, you have to treat them (medically). The medical corps of the armed forces are already under staffed and would be ill-equipped to deal with the onslaught of obese and type 2 diabetics, let alone the plethora of other illnesses.
> 
> As a side note we already see how the military is evolving toward the combination of high tech weaponry and small professional fighting units. Both requires a smaller military albeit one staffed by more sophisticated and better trained personnel. Under this scenario, a draft is unnecessary and counterproductive.


im not talking about medical conditions. im talking about things like: 
no high school deploma
overweight
tattoos that show in uniform
bit of a criminal background
history of drug abuse
cant pass a PT test.


i saw a lot of people graduate OSUT who couldnt even pass the bare minimum for the army. im not sure what the logic was in that, but they needed warm bodies, so they just pushed them through the pipeline.


----------



## LongWalk

I agree with Drerio.

It is absurd to have large surface vessels whose location is always trackable by satellite. It must be very cheap to build drones that can skim the surface of the ocean for extended flights and destroy aircraft carriers that cost an enormous amount.

The US is spending too much money on old ideas.


----------



## Ikaika

As'laDain said:


> im not talking about medical conditions. im talking about things like:
> 
> no high school deploma
> 
> overweight
> 
> tattoos that show in uniform
> 
> bit of a criminal background
> 
> history of drug abuse
> 
> cant pass a PT test.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i saw a lot of people graduate OSUT who couldnt even pass the bare minimum for the army. im not sure what the logic was in that, but they needed warm bodies, so they just pushed them through the pipeline.



Ok, but let's look at the CDC stats, within the next 10 years one in three will be diabetic, already obesity across all demographics is 39%, that is a lot of potential recruits to write off.


----------



## As'laDain

drerio said:


> Ok, but let's look at the CDC stats, within the next 10 years one in three will be diabetic, already obesity across all demographics is 39%, that is a lot of potential recruits to write off.


thats what PT is for.


----------



## DoF

LongWalk said:


> I agree with Drerio.
> 
> It is absurd to have large surface vessels whose location is always trackable by satellite. It must be very cheap to build drones that can skim the surface of the ocean for extended flights and destroy aircraft carriers that cost an enormous amount.
> 
> The US is spending too much money on old ideas.


We are doing so because it's in the best interest of those that provide these tools to military.

Look at the entire F35 project, billions and billions wasted on what? 

Nobody seems to be responsible or punished for failure....or wasted billions all while Corporation is laughing all the way to the bank.

There is no accountability for ANYTHING within the government and corps.

Wild west.


----------



## GTdad

LongWalk said:


> I agree with Drerio.
> 
> It is absurd to have large surface vessels whose location is always trackable by satellite. It must be very cheap to build drones that can skim the surface of the ocean for extended flights and destroy aircraft carriers that cost an enormous amount.
> 
> The US is spending too much money on old ideas.


The Naval Aviation guys referred to surface vessels as "targets" in the early 80s. I can only imagine how much more true that is today.


----------



## Ikaika

As'laDain said:


> thats what PT is for.



Interesting idea, that is to treat bootcamp similar to "fat" camps. Certainly would delay our readiness and require the military to hire physical fitness trainers and dietitians 

I guess we have to consider who are future military adversaries are into the future and decide if the expense is worth it.


----------



## As'laDain

drerio said:


> Interesting idea, that is to treat bootcamp similar to "fat" camps. Certainly would delay our readiness and require the military to hire physical fitness trainers and dietitians
> 
> I guess we have to consider who are future military adversaries are into the future and decide if the expense is worth it.


thats the thing... sometimes, you just gotta do what you gotta do. if the US was ever in serious trouble, we would have to work with what we have. being fat wouldnt be an excuse if thats all we have.


----------



## Ikaika

As'laDain said:


> thats the thing... sometimes, you just gotta do what you gotta do. if the US was ever in serious trouble, we would have to work with what we have. being fat wouldnt be an excuse if thats all we have.



There is a difference between being overweight and obese, but again, I guess it would have to coincide with the mission at hand. I'm glad I don't have to make those decisions.


----------



## Runs like Dog

drerio said:


> However, if a draft were to be instituted, I think it would shed light on a bigger problem, 1 in 3 age eligible individuals would be disqualified because of their type 2 diabetes mellitus.


Likely. Anyway the armed forces already turns down at least that many applicants.


----------



## Theseus

GTdad said:


> I'm surprised it's that low. I guess that most if not all are OCS, and I wouldn't have thought they made up that big of a share. Are they expected to get a degree if they want to get past O-2 or O-3? Maybe the number includes warrant officers?


I'm guessing it does include warrant officers; I'm an officer myself and I have get to meet any other that didn't have a Bachelor's degree.

Technically, you can be a commissioned officer without a degree but it's extremely rare. In the Army anyway, here's how it works. If you have a certain amount of credit hours (forget how many exactly), you can apply to OCS, but your packet would have to be extremely strong to be selected. If you were awarded the Silver Star or Medal of Honor, the education requirement is waived for OCS. 

However, you have to sign an agreement with the understanding that if you don't earn your degree before you make O-3, then you won't be promoted.


----------



## LongWalk

Theseus,

Are the officers demoralized by the fitness of soldiers?


----------



## As'laDain

LongWalk said:


> Theseus,
> 
> Are the officers demoralized by the fitness of soldiers?


i would think not. most of the officers i have known have been in extremely good shape. 

then again, im an airborne infantryman, so my experiences with officers may be a little slanted. 

still though, when the brigade commander can run two miles in under eleven minutes...


----------



## As'laDain

Theseus said:


> I'm guessing it does include warrant officers; I'm an officer myself and I have get to meet any other that didn't have a Bachelor's degree.
> 
> Technically, you can be a commissioned officer without a degree but it's extremely rare. In the Army anyway, here's how it works. If you have a certain amount of credit hours (forget how many exactly), you can apply to OCS, but your packet would have to be extremely strong to be selected. If you were awarded the Silver Star or Medal of Honor, the education requirement is waived for OCS.
> 
> However, you have to sign an agreement with the understanding that if you don't earn your degree before you make O-3, then you won't be promoted.


it only makes sense to me if it includes warrant officers, considering we havent been battle field commissioning anyone since god knows when...


----------



## Theseus

LongWalk said:


> Theseus,
> 
> Are the officers demoralized by the fitness of soldiers?


I'm not sure about the intent of your question - they are no more or less demoralized about it than they have been in the past. Soldiers these days are not draftees, and they are mostly in pretty good shape.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Back to the original post's question:

Well, my 22-year-old son just graduated from college last weekend. He's going to be working a temporary job over the summer, then joining the military in the fall. 

I'm a parent, so I'm always concerned for his safety. But I'm supportive of his decision, and proud of him. I guess that's how I would feel even with a draft.


----------



## Entropy3000

LongWalk said:


> The US has a large number of bases around the world and they do provide the world with stability. Having a US forces on Okinawa is a deterrent to China beginning a military conflict with Japan over disputed territory. However, there is problem. The US does not have a position about the disputes. Merely having armed forces is not enough. There must also be a mission that is credible and to which we are committed.
> 
> Are we prepared to go to war over islands in the Pacific?
> 
> The US military has not always conducted itself well. On Okinawa there have been several incidents involving US service men raping local women. Here is a link.
> 
> The US preparedness has been badly harmed by Iraq and Afghanistan. This perhaps increases the risk of a draft in the long run.
> 
> The US allows non citizens to serve in return for which they become legal citizens. I don't think any nation should employ foreigners to fight for it. They are mercenaries, aren't they?
> 
> Machiavelli believes the US should return to state based militias instead the federal juggernaut. Intriguing.


“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” -- Teddy Roosevelt.

There is one mission that people need to come to grips with. Our military is formed not to do good deeds. It is a deterent to those that would do us harm. For the deterent to work one needs to understand that if pushed far enough we are willing to enter other soveriegn countries if we deem it fit no matter what any other country may think. There are times you stand alone. Can power be used incorrectly. Most certainly. This all comes with the territory. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. You learn from your mistakes and move forward.

"We have gone forth from our shores repeatedly over the last hundred years and we’ve done this as recently as the last year in Afghanistan and put wonderful young men and women at risk, *many of whom have lost their lives, and we have asked for nothing except enough ground to bury them in,* and otherwise we have returned home to seek our own, you know, to seek our own lives in peace, to live our own lives in peace. But there comes a time when soft power or talking with evil will not work where, unfortunately, hard power is the only thing that works." -- Colin Powell

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf" -- George Orwell

But for right now asymetrical warfare is in vogue. As they say you must prepare for the next war, not the last. 

Who would really stand with the US if we needed the help to defend our own land? Who would shed their blood and spend their treasure? We may be surprised. I hope we never have to find out. I do not discount those that today fight and in the past have fought side by side with us. We know who they are.

We Stand By You


----------



## Entropy3000

LongWalk said:


> I agree with Drerio.
> 
> It is absurd to have large surface vessels whose location is always trackable by satellite. It must be very cheap to build drones that can skim the surface of the ocean for extended flights and destroy aircraft carriers that cost an enormous amount.
> 
> The US is spending too much money on old ideas.


I am sure you are an expert on warfare.

Having spent significant time on the USS Nimitz, while indeed large vessels have their limitations a single carrier can project great power where it needs to. This is why we exercise around the globe. 

But we have many different ways to deliver this power. There is strength in diversity. Different weapon systems provide different options.

Indeed a Carrier task force can operate without need for a land base. There is a reason my Squadrons motto is "First To Fight, First To Strike".

The thing is that these Carriers are depended upon for some very practical reasons. Again we do not need anyones permission to launch from their land. Any land installation is a fixed target. 

You have threats and you have deterents. We seem to be able to project a lot of power when we wish to.
Call it a political weapon. Indeed Carriers were key in the cold war. They still have their place. They are not our only option.
So the Navy has Carriers and Missile Cruisers and Submarines and can insert a SEAL Team where it deems appropriate. Not to mention the various Marine vessels. We have not used a Battleship in a long while. So to warfare evolves. It is.


----------



## Entropy3000

LongWalk said:


> Theseus,
> 
> Are the officers demoralized by the fitness of soldiers?


Many countries have special forces capabilities. But the US has increased its Special Forces capabilities in recent years. I think the Navy SEALs, Airborne Rangers and Delta Force are in pretty good shape? 
But it goes beyond them.

Also warfare is much more than hand to hand combat. There is much technology. So fitness in this case comes down to capabilities. I have been out for quite some time. However, my scores were he best in the squadron including officers. I had a perfect score. That qualifies me handily for Mensa if I gave a damn about that. I worked with a lot of extremely bright people. Most were not officers. I worked with Missiles and related computerized technologies. My point is that warfare can indeed attract some of the brighest and capable people around. That has been a constant over thousands of years. Many people have no desire to be career military nor be officers. They work in technology and eventually move back into the private sector.

But why the attitude here?


----------



## Entropy3000

GTdad said:


> The Naval Aviation guys referred to surface vessels as "targets" in the early 80s. I can only imagine how much more true that is today.


Your job is to launch.

That said we could leave the soviets in our wake any time we wanted to. This was back int he 80s you mentioned.

A surface vessel is no more a target than a land base. It can at least move.

Any design at all has it strengths and weaknesses.


----------



## LongWalk

Entropy,

I am no expert on military affairs. But that does not disqualify me from asking questions. After all it is the entire country that pays for the armed forces.

The US is the undisputed leader when it comes to aircraft carriers. According to this page of Wikipedia, we have 10, have two in reserve and are building three. No other country in world has more than two.

To be sure an aircraft carrier is great platform for projecting might. But why wouldn't it be better to put the money into more sophisticated submarines which are hidden from satellites? I assume, perhaps wrongly, that subs can evade detection in the depths of the Pacific and Atlantic.

But as you point out there are many challenges, such as asymmetric warfare.


----------



## coffee4me

Entropy3000 said:


> Also warfare is much more than hand to hand combat. There is much technology.
> 
> My point is that warfare can indeed attract some of the brightest and capable people around. That has been a constant over thousands of years. Many people have no desire to be career military nor be officers. They work in technology and eventually move back into the private sector.


Our last base was a weapons arsenal. The arsenal employs over 3000 civilian scientists and engineers.


----------



## Entropy3000

LongWalk said:


> Entropy,
> 
> I am no expert on military affairs. But that does not disqualify me from asking questions. After all it is the entire country that pays for the armed forces.
> 
> The US is the undisputed leader when it comes to aircraft carriers. According to this page of Wikipedia, we have 10, have two in reserve and are building three. No other country in world has more than two.
> 
> To be sure an aircraft carrier is great platform for projecting might. But why wouldn't it be better to put the money into more sophisticated submarines which are hidden from satellites? I assume, perhaps wrongly, that subs can evade detection in the depths of the Pacific and Atlantic.
> 
> But as you point out there are many challenges, such as asymmetric warfare.


I suggest that things are morphing greatly now.

This is my point. So I am not so much disagreeing with the premise as much as I am saying you have to consider the consequences of de-emphasizing areas. Do I think lobbyists have much to do with choices? I am sure they do. 

I am very high on asymetric warfare. I am all for assasins. I am all for using technology where it makes sense. I love the way we use dogs. But I am a softee there. I would never leave a dog behind either.  They are part of the teams. Hooyah.


----------



## Entropy3000

coffee4me said:


> Our last base was a weapons arsenal. The arsenal employs over 3000 civilian scientists and engineers.


Right. I would not minimize those directly in harms way but a military capability takes many forms and things do change. Like anything else huge change takes time. But our military has undergone great change in the last 20 years.

So you need a highly professional core force across these areas that can be augmented as required. 

I think most people here are saying this. So you want to be agile. 

But there are times when a few hundred Abrams tanks can be helpful. I think this is less so these days.

I was in a Navy F14 Squadron ( Hence my signature. ) so I am going to have real BIAS here. The last three years I taught. Total of eight years. So that is a narrow view. But an interesting one.

I then spent the better part of 15 years working in a DoD environment. We developed new high tech weapon systems. Often retrofitting existing hardware and adding modern capabilities. I miss much of that today. We did not make hammers. But I did get a sense of balance. Always assessing what the threat is and trying to come up with solutions. Trust me beside missles there was plenty of space technology involved.

"Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt." -- Sun Tzu

Ancient, but never more pertinent.

Oh and war is very much about logistics. This is how the Greek Navy ultimately defeated the Persians. Indeed Thermopylae was inspiring and we can take great lessons from it. Ultimately cutting off a huge occupying enemies supply line will cause it to retreat or die.
History aside as they say you cannot keep preparing for the last war.


----------



## coffee4me

Entropy3000 said:


> But there are times when a few hundred Abrams tanks can be helpful. I think this is less so these days.


This reminded me of the strangeness of my military upbringing. 

I wonder what my civilian date thought when he had to give all his identifying information at the guard post and then pulled up in front of my house with the tanks parked outside. 

It never occurred to me to ask him


----------



## Theseus

LongWalk said:


> To be sure an aircraft carrier is great platform for projecting might. But why wouldn't it be better to put the money into more sophisticated submarines which are hidden from satellites? I assume, perhaps wrongly, that subs can evade detection in the depths of the Pacific and Atlantic.
> 
> But as you point out there are many challenges, such as asymmetric warfare.


Subs do have ballistic missiles, and some of them even have nuclear missiles, but that doesn't come close to the versatility of an aircraft carrier. The aircraft on a carrier can conduct ground attack, air interdiction, combat air patrols, electronic warfare, and reconnaissance flights. All of this over land as well as sea. Carriers are not going away. There will probably come a day though, when they are full of drone aircraft instead of manned.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Wolfman1968 said:


> Back to the original post's question:
> 
> Well, my 22-year-old son just graduated from college last weekend. He's going to be working a temporary job over the summer, then joining the military in the fall.
> 
> I'm a parent, so I'm always concerned for his safety. But I'm supportive of his decision, and proud of him. I guess that's how I would feel even with a draft.


As in most armies, troops are often in a great deal more danger fro the possibility of accidents than battle. Training accidents, traffic accidents, falls, stupid things. And then there's reality that some non combat roles can be quite dangerous on their own. Truck drivers suffered a very high casualty rate in Afghanistan. And the leading cause of all aircraft deaths was non combat related crashes. The high altitude and dust of Afghanistan is lethal to helicopters and small planes.


----------



## richie33

Entropy3000 said:


> I am sure you are an expert on warfare.
> 
> Having spent significant time on the USS Nimitz, while indeed large vessels have their limitations a single carrier can project great power where it needs to. This is why we exercise around the globe.
> 
> But we have many different ways to deliver this power. There is strength in diversity. Different weapon systems provide different options.
> 
> Indeed a Carrier task force can operate without need for a land base. There is a reason my Squadrons motto is "First To Fight, First To Strike".
> 
> The thing is that these Carriers are depended upon for some very practical reasons. Again we do not need anyones permission to launch from their land. Any land installation is a fixed target.
> 
> You have threats and you have deterents. We seem to be able to project a lot of power when we wish to.
> Call it a political weapon. Indeed Carriers were key in the cold war. They still have their place. They are not our only option.
> So the Navy has Carriers and Missile Cruisers and Submarines and can insert a SEAL Team where it deems appropriate. Not to mention the various Marine vessels. We have not used a Battleship in a long while. So to warfare evolves. It is.


Navy is as much about presence as anything else. Having a battle group sitting off your coast sends a big message to these countries. One we bomb the hell out of you and two we can stop anything coming in and out of your country be either sea or air.


----------



## LongWalk

Essentially there is no need for a draft. The US has over a million men (and women) at arms.

Some countries have real military capacity. Others are just coasting on the end of the Cold War wake.

All is dandy as long as you can pay for a the personnel and equipment.

China has lent the US a trillion dollars. There is at least one reason not to escalate conflict with the US.


----------



## Entropy3000

coffee4me said:


> This reminded me of the strangeness of my military upbringing.
> 
> I wonder what my civilian date thought when he had to give all his identifying information at the guard post and then pulled up in front of my house with the tanks parked outside.
> 
> It never occurred to me to ask him


 I bet.

My dad was a tool and die maker. Navy. Uncles Navy, Marine, Air Force.

I bleed blue and gold. But I was Naval Aviation. A different breed. I get so much of my attitude from being in a fighter squadron. It has defined me.

So much of this even today creeps into my comments and rhetoric. I will sometimes say without a second thought. "We have yet to test that in anger."  Things that distract I refer to as "chaff". When engaging major efforts I think of "turning into the wind." Sometimes I think of someone who you can always count on as "someone you would go into battle with." In many projects I think in terms of "planes in the air that are running low on fuel and therefore if you have a fouled deck you cut your losses and push that aircraft overboard." In heavy seas you cannot avoid you head into the wave. If someone is following you they are on your six. I have a different view of teamwork than non military people have. We all win or we all die. You either come together and fix that hole or you perish. I think of "The Teams". There are events that I can relate to as entering through the pillars of Hercules. Romantic notions perhaps.

But the biggest influence good or bad I believe is my propensity to put myself in harms way. Very much a double edged sword but who I am. Perhaps I am broken that way. I got validation of this recently. Never spoke to my boss about harms way. He was speaking to a colleague of mine and marvelling at how I never give up. That to his shagrin I will put put myself in harms way. The colleague later told me this a few weeks ago when we were in SF. It was an interesting insight. And very accurate. Obvious as it turns out. From management perspective I view those that work for me as being in my keeping. I am responsible for them.

My generation has a lot of daemons. The Navy actually took great care of me. They tried to talk me into an officer program. I was never asked to go in country. Not where my skills were of course. But there is a part of me that is somber about that. "Leave no one behind". Haunting really. As has been said, you fight for the guy next to you at some point. These are bonds you cannot explain to many who have not experienced it. I cannot even fathom being in a real fire fight. Being on a Carrier deck was dangerous enough for me. 

But I digress. Military familes. Wow. Talk about challenges. I am not religious but if there is a heaven there should be a special place for those people.


----------



## Entropy3000

richie33 said:


> Navy is as much about presence as anything else. Having a battle group sitting off your coast sends a big message to these countries. One we bomb the hell out of you and two we can stop anything coming in and out of your country be either sea or air.


It is a political weapon. yes. It is a way of projecting power in relative short notice while other forces form up. It is not the only way to do this. Indeed we can launch stealth bombers from the US refuel on the way and delivery ordinance.


----------



## Entropy3000

LongWalk said:


> Essentially there is no need for a draft. The US has over a million men (and women) at arms.
> 
> Some countries have real military capacity. Others are just coasting on the end of the Cold War wake.
> 
> All is dandy as long as you can pay for a the personnel and equipment.
> 
> China has lent the US a trillion dollars. There is at least one reason not to escalate conflict with the US.


I agree.

But is the cold war really over? We shall see.


----------



## DoF

Entropy3000 said:


> I agree.
> 
> But is the cold war really over? We shall see.


First, there has never been a cold war. You can't call something that's a thread WAR.

Russians didn't call it WAR. 

It was simply American media/government doing what they love to do SO often and SO much....infuse FEAR into American people.

it's kind of sad, cause even poor/primitive people in Russia can read between the BS their government feeds them, yet even the GREATEST GENERATION here couldn't.



Reason: MONEY

Think about how much money was spent on weapons/military in that era.

DING DING DING (more money stolen from American public by Corps/Business.......using Government). America LOVES fear!!!! it sells well, what can I say.

It's no different than the whole Communist thing. Regan and US pretending they had part in bringing it down (don't get me wrong, to an extent they did) but the REAL fight was on the ground, started on the soccer fields of Gdansk to be exact....and done by people within those nations....the hard way. America just took a much credit as possible. 

And to be honest, not much has really changes since the "collapse of communism". Who cares if you change the labels of system, at the end of the day crocks and communists still have the control of many of those countries. It will take MANY generation to fix this...and some.

And here we are 20 years later being the biggest supporter of communism than any other nation on this planet (China). 

The reason? Well, Russia didn't allow US to take advantage of them and simply weren't putting up with our ****....thus the "cold war" > making them bad guys. HOW DARE THEY!!!!

But since China is willing to let us take advantage of them and take advantage of their own people, communism is ok now.

RIIIIIGHT

The good thing is that more and more Americans can see through this BS. When I first came to this country (early 90s) it seemed like EVERYONE was completely blind. 

I remember kids asking my how did it feel to have no freedom. I didn't know what the hell they were talking about, I had as much if not MORE freedom in communist nation as I have here. 

Do you want me to see a picture of me as a 8 year old boy wearing Solidarity tee-shirt? The very act that would "land me in Siberia"???

Come on now. People in ALL of world know exactly how messed up their government is and they ignore their laws/BS and still do whatever they please. Are the oppressed? Sure, but to think that they are blind monkey's simply following orders like robots is just straight up silly.


----------



## turnera

I wish we had the draft back - for men AND women. It's about the only source of learning to respect a higher source we have left. Let everyone serve 2 years and leave and go back to society.


----------



## As'laDain

turnera said:


> I wish we had the draft back - for men AND women. It's about the only source of learning to respect a higher source we have left. Let everyone serve 2 years and leave and go back to society.


i wouldn't mind compulsory service(for civil, noncombat service), but to be honest, the thought of going to combat with someone who doesn't want to be there, who never wanted to be there, scares the crap out of me.


----------



## 6301

turnera said:


> I wish we had the draft back - for men AND women. It's about the only source of learning to respect a higher source we have left. Let everyone serve 2 years and leave and go back to society.


 When I got drafted back in 66, my best friend was a year younger so it wasn't his turn yet but he decided to join the army and get it over with so I went with him to the recruiting station and even though I was drafted, I was able to join. Now the problem is it's not a two year hitch but a three.

I was asked where I would like to be stationed in the states and where in the world I would like to be stationed.

I told him California for the states and Europe for the world. I got both but had to make a trip to Nam first and then after a 45 day leave, I went to Germany.

I had the time of my life while I was there. Got to see Europe and I pretty much had a 8 to 4:30 job with week ends off and life was good.

All in all being in the army was a good experience. Made me appreciate life when I was in Vietnam and being being in Taiwan Japan for a day and the Philippines for a couple days on my way to Nam plus all the places I went in Europe, by the time I got out in 69, I was 21 and had been pretty much around the world and saw a lot of things that most people wouldn't get the chance. 

Not to mention that being in the service made you grow up and give you a kick start being an adult.


----------



## Happyfamily

Our sons already know as children that we attack and kill innocent people on false pretexts. They do not understand the military-industrial complex yet, but they will.

So if there is a draft in order to enrich the already rich and kill the already wretched, we will be proud to protest and get our children to a country that is not full of bloodthirsty profiteers and an ignorant electorate.


----------



## I'll make tea

My son is a toddler now. How I would feel about it depends a lot on the political situation in which he would be drafted. 

Would there be a war or would it be a peace-time draft like they currently have in Switzerland - they do, don't they or am I ill informed?
I am in favour of that kind of draft because I think able bodied men should be able to defend their families if they are attacked / invaded. I know there are people who are opposed to it but I cannot understand why. 
Are there really people who would stay pacifist if their country was invaded and they had to watch their families being slaughtered?

Would I think that the military intervention my country takes part in is justified? Would my country be attacked? 

I am a bit afraid that my son will chose to be a soldier one day (draft or no) and I am not a friend of that.... but ultimately the choice is up to him and depending on the political situation I might be proud or not.

Well... from the life of Galileo

Andrea: "Unhappy is the land that breeds no hero"
Galileo: "No, Andrea: Unhappy the land that is in need of heroes"

... and I hope my country (+ the earth) will be happy and not in need of a hero in the future.


----------



## Wiltshireman

As others have said I think it highly unlikely that any of the western democracies will need to bring back the draft (conscription in the UK) and although I can see benefits to all 18 year old's completing "basic training" in the military I do not think it is something we can afford.

That said I am from a long line of military men and I would hope that should the need arise any of my children whose age and health allowed them to serve the country would do so. Yes I am sure I would worry about them (as my mother worried for me and my grandmother for my father etc) but that would not stop me wishing them "Good Luck and God Speed".


----------



## I'll make tea

Wiltshireman said:


> As others have said I think it highly unlikely?


Why do you think that this is so unlikely?

I may be totally wrong but to my mind the earth has been on a brink of a world war just a few weeks ago (the situation in Ukraine, USA against Russia, everybody else has to pick a side). I may be just overly anxious. Luckily I think the war does not happen.

I even do know some Brits who think that your country is on the brink of civil war as public order cannot be hold up because of a a) a multitude of people being "chavs" who will riot at any chance and b) some religious hate preachers. I am not really sure if I should believe that. What they told me about Britain sounded really horrendous... and some of the things I read on conservative media sounded just as horrendous... what is your opinion as a Brit. Is your country a bad place to live?


----------



## Theseus

Happyfamily said:


> Our sons already know as children that we attack and kill innocent people on false pretexts.


Then I hope someday your children are exposed to a more balanced, and less conspiracy-theory laden point of view.


----------



## oddball

I was drafted into an unjust war in Africa when I was 18. I refused to serve, and became a draft dodger. I supported the military wing of the liberation movement where I live. I am not a pacifist. Any democracy should allow for a decision of conscience not to serve. IN Israel for example more and more young Israelis are becoming draft dodgers, as they see the current situation as only escalating, and are seeking a alternative more peaceful route.If my children were ever to be drafted, I would encourage them to act on conscience. I hope the democracy we have will allow that choice.
So I am not opposed to the draft - but will question for which war.


----------



## Wiltshireman

I'll make tea said:


> Why do you think that this is so unlikely?
> 
> I may be totally wrong but to my mind the earth has been on a brink of a world war just a few weeks ago (the situation in Ukraine, USA against Russia, everybody else has to pick a side). I may be just overly anxious. Luckily I think the war does not happen.
> 
> I even do know some Brits who think that your country is on the brink of civil war as public order cannot be hold up because of a a) a multitude of people being "chavs" who will riot at any chance and b) some religious hate preachers. I am not really sure if I should believe that. What they told me about Britain sounded really horrendous... and some of the things I read on conservative media sounded just as horrendous... what is your opinion as a Brit. Is your country a bad place to live?


England is a great place to live IF you are in well paid work.

Taxes are high but you do get a lot back (free universal health care and basic pension for all).

Crime (especially violent crime) is LOW.

Yes there are problems with an "underclass" of people who think the system (read taxpayers) owe them a living and the EU rights act does mean we can't always treat criminals as the majority of the population would wish.

As with most "free press" societies there are newspapers and tv stations supporting different political opinions and some of them are "alarmist".

All in All if I had to live anywhere else it would be hard to match what I and my family have here. It is far from perfect but where is.


----------



## Happyfamily

Theseus said:


> Then I hope someday your children are exposed to a more balanced, and less conspiracy-theory laden point of view.


lol. You mean like the conspiracy theory regarding Iraq attacking the USA with "weapons of mass destruction"? 

Or the conspiracies involving weddings, funerals, boys gathering firewood, community meetings and such in Afghanistan that we regularly blow to pieces with drones?

Or the conspiracy theory of Viet Nam attacking the USA in the Gulf of Tonkin?

I can go on, but I prefer my discussants know a little history.


----------



## As'laDain

Happyfamily, have you ever met a Kurd?


----------



## Happyfamily

As'laDain said:


> Happyfamily, have you ever met a Kurd?


Oh yes, and I also have a number of Iranian friends including the author of "Rooftops over Tehran". If you actually know Mahbod Seraji, then you will know his father was the heavyweight boxing champion of Iran, that he holds a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, and that he was nearly killed in a terrible automobile accident while he was at the University of Iowa. Want more? 

So while we are on that subject perhaps we can talk about how the USA, through the CIA, overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran and installed the brutal dictator Shah with his secret police SAVAK. Boy, weren't they good friends to the Kurds.

Or hey, how about 1991 when Bush told the Kurds to rise up against Saddam Hussein? Or before that with the USA arming Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons to drop on Iranians and Kurds? 

So what is the point of your question?


----------



## LongWalk

The US officially apologized to Iran for installing the Shah.

re: the need for soldiers
Today Dagens Nyheter, a Swedish daily, reported that 250,000 vets are unemployed. Michelle Obama is organizing job fairs for them, according to the paper.


----------



## Happyfamily

LongWalk said:


> The US officially apologized to Iran for installing the Shah.


And so long as our dictator was in power, we were giving them the equipment and expertise to develop nuclear energy.

But now that our dictator is no longer in power it is foaming-at-the mouth, bug-eyed conspiracy theorizing about Iran being evil incarnate with designs on blowing up the civilized world. 

I shouldn't worry my pretty little head though with something so complicated as foreign policy, wars and all - just get right back into my kitchen here and bake a chicken dinner for my husband. 

lol. That's what I am actually doing. :smthumbup:


----------



## I'll make tea

Wiltshireman said:


> England is a great place to live IF you are in well paid work.
> 
> Taxes are high but you do get a lot back (free universal health care and basic pension for all).
> 
> Crime (especially violent crime) is LOW.
> 
> Yes there are problems with an "underclass" of people who think the system (read taxpayers) owe them a living and the EU rights act does mean we can't always treat criminals as the majority of the population would wish.
> 
> As with most "free press" societies there are newspapers and tv stations supporting different political opinions and some of them are "alarmist".
> 
> All in All if I had to live anywhere else it would be hard to match what I and my family have here.


Happy that you (and the other Brits on the TAM politics subjection) have a more positive opinion about your country. 



Wiltshireman said:


> It is far from perfect but where is.


True!


----------



## Theseus

Happyfamily said:


> So while we are on that subject perhaps we can talk about how the USA, through the CIA, overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran and installed the brutal dictator Shah with his secret police SAVAK. Boy, weren't they good friends to the Kurds.


No they weren't, but even the Shah was better than the fanatical Iranian Revolution that followed him. In fact, very similar to Robespierre's Reign of Terror after the French Revolution. 




> _Or before that with the USA arming Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons to drop on Iranians and Kurds?_



The USA never "armed" Saddam with anything. Saddam did buy precursor chemicals from the USA (and many other nations), but the chemicals he bought were legal for any nation to buy. I've had this discussion with other people before, and they are usually surprised to find out that the US never sold any chemical weapons, (or weapons period) to Iraq during the years Saddam was in power. The US did give Iraq intelligence information during the Iran-Iraq war when it looked like they were on the brink of collapse. 

Who did sell weapons to Saddam? That's easy. Russia, Argentina, and our good friend France! I have personally come across plenty of french-made weapons in Iraq. 



Happyfamily said:


> And so long as our dictator was in power, we were giving them the equipment and expertise to develop nuclear energy.


LOL!! OMG. We didn't give him "equipment and expertise to develop nuclear energy". We sold him computers, which once again, any nation could buy and were not specifically for nuclear power. When Israel destroyed the Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981, the United States didn't exactly protest. As a matter of fact, the US blocked the UN from issuing a punitive resolution against Israel!



> _But now that our dictator is no longer in power it is foaming-at-the mouth, bug-eyed conspiracy theorizing about Iran being evil incarnate with designs on blowing up the civilized world._


Depends on your definition of "evil incarnate". A country that takes hostages, openly threatens to destroy Israel, regularly makes children chant "_death to Israe_l" and "_death to America_" in elementary schools (although fortunately that's in decline now), openly *puts a $3 million dollar bounty* on Salmon Rushdie's life, performs stoning, flogging, beheading and amputation as part of its legal code, executes homosexuals, brutally cracks down on student protestors, just to name a few. I recommend you also google the words "Evin prison" for some eye-opening information.

And yet we haven't bombed Iran or gone to war with them, despite conspiracy theorists who were *convinced* that Bush was going to pull an "October surprise" and attack Iran just before the elections in 2008. They hyper-left blogs don't discuss that much anymore, that was a bit of embarrassment for them. 




Happyfamily said:


> I can go on, but I prefer my discussants know a little history.


Hmmmmmmmmm.....


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## As'laDain

i know several Kurds from the Badinan region in northern Iraq. 

Saddam tried to completely eradicate them in the late 1980s. their stories are just as bad as those of holocaust survivors, if not worse. 

the only old man i know from Badinan lost his entire family. so when Bush senior urged the Kurds to fight back, they had already suffered indiscriminate genocide at the hands of Saddam. 

afterwards, Saddam decided to make sure their culture was destroyed. families that survived were no longer allowed to teach their children their native tongue. if their children went to school and could speak kurdish, they were often reported and taken away from their families.


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## Happyfamily

As'laDain said:


> i know several Kurds from the Badinan region in northern Iraq.
> 
> Saddam tried to completely eradicate them in the late 1980s. their stories are just as bad as those of holocaust survivors, if not worse.
> 
> the only old man i know from Badinan lost his entire family. so when Bush senior urged the Kurds to fight back, they had already suffered indiscriminate genocide at the hands of Saddam.
> 
> afterwards, Saddam decided to make sure their culture was destroyed. families that survived were no longer allowed to teach their children their native tongue. if their children went to school and could speak kurdish, they were often reported and taken away from their families.


So what are you saying? That my boys should be drafted into a war to do what, exactly, about the Kurds? 

Where were the Kurds while the Indians in the USA were being eradicated? Shouldn't they have been drafted to fight the USA?


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## Happyfamily

Theseus said:


> No they weren't, but even the Shah was better than the fanatical Iranian Revolution that followed him. In fact, very similar to Robespierre's Reign of Terror after the French Revolution.


Two things. First, the revolution was CAUSED by the brutal dictator Shah, which we installed by overthrowing the democratically elected government. 

I can see that for you, there is a "USA rightfully rules the world" predisposition. I disagree, especially drafting my kids to overthrow foreign governments. Based on your wild caricatures, most especially. I see your Robespierre and raise you a Hitler. 





> The USA never "armed" Saddam with anything. Saddam did buy precursor chemicals from the USA


lol. I refer you to the Conspiracy theory US Senate Report: 
"US Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual-Use Exports to Iraq", sometimes referred to as the Riegle Report:

Full text of "United States dual-use exports to Iraq and their impact on the health of the Persian Gulf war veterans : hearing before the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs, United States Senate, One Hundred Third Congress, second sessi




> Back in 1992, the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs, which is the Committee which has Senate oversight for the Export Administration Act, held an inquiry into the United States export policy to Iraq prior to the Persian Gulf War. During that hearing * it was learned that U.N. inspectors had identified many United States-manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and missile delivery system development programs.*


Since you have obviously not read this report, feel free to get back to me when you know what you are talking about. 

it's all the more laughable because this report references other hearings and reports in which these "Precursors" you mention included U.S. Shipments of bacillus anthracis (May 2, 1986), bacterium clostridium botulinum (two batches), One batch each of salmonella and E coli (August 31, 1987), and etc.

So sure, shipping the exact materials needed to produce anthrax, botulism, etc. - just harmless "precursors". 





> LOL!! OMG. We didn't give him "equipment and expertise to develop nuclear energy". We sold him computers, which once again, any nation could buy and were not specifically for nuclear power. When Israel destroyed the Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981, the United States didn't exactly protest. As a matter of fact, the US blocked the UN from issuing a punitive resolution against Israel!


lol yourself. Google "Atoms for Peace" to see how extensive just this one component was towards the direct US assistance in the Shah's nuclear power program. In 1967 for example, the Tehran Nuclear Research Center was provided with a 5MW nuclear reactor by the USA! 

Prove me wrong.


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## Theseus

Happyfamily said:


> I can see that for you, there is a "USA rightfully rules the world" predisposition.


Hardly. But neither to I subscribe to the view that the United States is the biggest source of evil in the world either. 



> _lol. I refer you to the Conspiracy theory US Senate Report:
> "US Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual-Use Exports to Iraq", sometimes referred to as the Riegle Report:_


Yes, notice the report is specifically about *DUAL-USE* exports; ie materials which have a legitimate purpose outside of warfare.

For example, any country can make guns out of steel; that doesn't mean you impose a steel embargo because of it. 

We didn't sell Saddam weapons. That's all I'm claiming. France did sell weapons, and so the standard line used to be "The West armed Saddam" which is technically true, but that soon morphed into "The United States armed Saddam" which is not the same thing and is not true. 



> _it's all the more laughable because this report references other hearings and reports in which these "Precursors" you mention included U.S. Shipments of bacillus anthracis (May 2, 1986), bacterium clostridium botulinum (two batches), One batch each of salmonella and E coli (August 31, 1987), and etc.
> 
> So sure, shipping the exact materials needed to produce anthrax, botulism, etc. - just harmless "precursors". _


They were harmless precursors - in the form that they were sold. All these can be weaponized, but it takes a great deal of effort. But I should point out that these were VERY small amounts, and if you bother to do a little research you would know it was legal to sell these at the time because they are needed for vaccine development. 



> _lol yourself. Google "Atoms for Peace" to see how extensive just this one component was towards the direct US assistance in the Shah's nuclear power program. In 1967 for example, the Tehran Nuclear Research Center was provided with a 5MW nuclear reactor by the USA! _


Last I checked, Tehran is in *IRAN*, not Iraq. So in your own words, feel free to get back to me when you know what you are talking about.


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## As'laDain

Happyfamily said:


> So what are you saying? That my boys should be drafted into a war to do what, exactly, about the Kurds?
> 
> Where were the Kurds while the Indians in the USA were being eradicated? Shouldn't they have been drafted to fight the USA?


well, you made the assumption that America kills others on false pretexts. 

did i say anything about your kids getting drafted to do something about the Kurds? i must have missed that part in my posts.


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## As'laDain

one thing ill never understand is how america can sit by and watch a country absolutely slaughter its citizens and do nothing. 

but i guess thats part of american culture. those of us who are poor arent really poor. i was raised in a house where the floors had holes so big you could crawl through them.(i would often sneak out through them, crawling under the house)

the bathtub fell through the floor, we had to put cinderblocks under it and under the house to hold it up. the toilet fell through, so we got a piece of plywood and stole some of the asphalt from the road to seal the toilet to plywood. there were several months where we ate nothing but expired macaroni and cheese, made with water because we couldn't afford milk. sometimes we went hungry.
by all american accounts, we were poor. 

our poverty didnt come close to that of third world countries. i thought i was poor? good LORD was i wrong. we had food and clean water. we didnt always have electricity, but we were safe for the most part. even when we didnt have food, we could hunt because there was woods to hunt in and local ponds and creeks to fish. 

we werent poor. most americans arent poor. none of us are without hope while we claim our banner of red white and blue. 

the only thing my brothers and i needed was a place to curl up at night, enough food to fill our bellies, and a family to guide us. i remember sleeping in a car because we couldnt afford rent. my mother played games with us, and we never gave it a thought. 
the very bottom of US society at least can get government assistance. and if they cant, there is enough wild land for them to survive on. 
this is a country that really does take care of its own. 

but we ignore the atrocities of other countries. its not our problem. its THEIR fight. i would be rich if i had a nickle for every person who said we should stay out of the middle east because its not our problem. its not our war. they dont care. they are willing to do absolutely nothing about horrible atrocities committed by a tyrant. 


with the last war, it was fueled and fought by volunteers. nobody was drafted. and yet we still have people who would completely discredit their works because of some bull**** theory about global economy and companies getting rich. 

even if that were the case, even if that was the reason why america decided to go to war, it does not affect the individual decisions of hundreds of thousands of proud americans who decided to sign up for the fight. many of us joined for our country, but then learned how horrible Saddam really was. of course, we always fought for each other, but we didnt forget those who were so grateful that we came to iraq. even when we messed up and fired everyone associated with the Baathist party, they still understood what we were doing. 

in iraq, our job was to liberate the iraqi people from a tyrant who had no qualms about gassing his own people. he used chemicals against so many remote villages... chemicals that made them puke their guts up and blistered their skin off before killing them. but hey, its not our fight. who cares if they are doing this to a bright innocent six year old girl who only knows that they really like the flowers that grow on the side of the mountain. its their problem.

personally, i think we should be doing something. i think those who are getting slaughtered are just as valuable as i am. they are fellow human beings. they are loaded with life experiences, and it kills me when they are thrown away as garbage. i often loose sleep at night just thinking about them and being angry with myself because im not over there fighting with them, teaching them how to fight. but maybe im just an idiot. why would i go to war and kill for no reason and on false pretenses, right? 

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-victims-of-suspected-syrian-chemical-attack/


we as americans love to judge others and decide to do nothing when we could do something. Assad has already killed how many thousands of his own people? 

i guess it doesnt matter. we will never lift a hand to help. after all, its not our fight. who cares about them. 

we are americans. 

right?


The Revolting Syrian-ÙŠÙ„Ø§ Ø¥Ø±Ø*Ù„ ÙŠØ§ Ø¨Ø´Ø§Ø±


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## LongWalk

As'laDain,

I enjoyed the post about your childhood a lot.

re: fighting wars to save other people
Sometimes wars are fought to save others from snipers, starvation and poison gas, but that often. An awful lot of folks died in Rwanda over a few weeks time. Whether it was 0.5m or 1.0m who could not outrun the neighbors with machetes, it was not really a secret. Nobody intervened.

No foreign powers went to East Timor to drive out the Indonesians. The local people had to solve it themselves.

Usually independence and freedom come when happy circumstances allow.

As to the US involvement in Iraq, our military by and large behaved honorably. But the pretext of the war, weapons of mass destruction, was a flimsy fabrication. Once that was discovered the war had to have a new purpose. Finding Saddam. Once he was found creating democracy was the purpose of the occupation. But elections in a country divided along ethnic and religious falt lines is doomed to civil war. We have set them up for a future war that may be coming soon. That is not fault of our soldiers, but our politicians bear responsibility.

The number of persons who died since the US invasion is estimated at between 0.5m and 1.0m. That is a moral disaster for the US. George Bush, **** Cheney and Tony Blair ought to answer to war crime charges so that the US can distinguish between right and wrong.

When the Sunni and Shiite finish their conflict and the winner turns on the Kurds, do you think we should send in troops again?


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## Runs like Dog

There has to be a material difference between success and failure and you have to be able to recognize that difference. Until then, pull up the lawn chairs and watch them burn it all down.


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## As'laDain

LongWalk said:


> As'laDain,
> 
> I enjoyed the post about your childhood a lot.
> 
> re: fighting wars to save other people
> Sometimes wars are fought to save others from snipers, starvation and poison gas, but that often. An awful lot of folks died in Rwanda over a few weeks time. Whether it was 0.5m or 1.0m who could not outrun the neighbors with machetes, it was not really a secret. Nobody intervened.
> 
> No foreign powers went to East Timor to drive out the Indonesians. The local people had to solve it themselves.
> 
> Usually independence and freedom come when happy circumstances allow.
> 
> As to the US involvement in Iraq, our military by and large behaved honorably. But the pretext of the war, weapons of mass destruction, was a flimsy fabrication. Once that was discovered the war had to have a new purpose. Finding Saddam. Once he was found creating democracy was the purpose of the occupation. But elections in a country divided along ethnic and religious falt lines is doomed to civil war. We have set them up for a future war that may be coming soon. That is not fault of our soldiers, but our politicians bear responsibility.
> 
> The number of persons who died since the US invasion is estimated at between 0.5m and 1.0m. That is a moral disaster for the US. George Bush, **** Cheney and Tony Blair ought to answer to war crime charges so that the US can distinguish between right and wrong.
> 
> *When the Sunni and Shiite finish their conflict and the winner turns on the Kurds, do you think we should send in troops again?*



not just us, the whole damn free world should. but we wont. we will just watch them burn.


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## LongWalk

All the Kurds need is hardware.


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## turnera

All the Syrian fighters needed was hardware. Now it's too late.


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## Garro

As'laDain said:


> one thing ill never understand is how america can sit by and watch a country absolutely slaughter its citizens and do nothing.
> 
> but i guess thats part of american culture. those of us who are poor arent really poor. i was raised in a house where the floors had holes so big you could crawl through them.(i would often sneak out through them, crawling under the house)
> 
> the bathtub fell through the floor, we had to put cinderblocks under it and under the house to hold it up. the toilet fell through, so we got a piece of plywood and stole some of the asphalt from the road to seal the toilet to plywood. there were several months where we ate nothing but expired macaroni and cheese, made with water because we couldn't afford milk. sometimes we went hungry.
> by all american accounts, we were poor.
> 
> our poverty didnt come close to that of third world countries. i thought i was poor? good LORD was i wrong. we had food and clean water. we didnt always have electricity, but we were safe for the most part. even when we didnt have food, we could hunt because there was woods to hunt in and local ponds and creeks to fish.
> 
> we werent poor. most americans arent poor. none of us are without hope while we claim our banner of red white and blue.
> 
> the only thing my brothers and i needed was a place to curl up at night, enough food to fill our bellies, and a family to guide us. i remember sleeping in a car because we couldnt afford rent. my mother played games with us, and we never gave it a thought.
> the very bottom of US society at least can get government assistance. and if they cant, there is enough wild land for them to survive on.
> this is a country that really does take care of its own.
> 
> but we ignore the atrocities of other countries. its not our problem. its THEIR fight. i would be rich if i had a nickle for every person who said we should stay out of the middle east because its not our problem. its not our war. they dont care. they are willing to do absolutely nothing about horrible atrocities committed by a tyrant.
> 
> 
> with the last war, it was fueled and fought by volunteers. nobody was drafted. and yet we still have people who would completely discredit their works because of some bull**** theory about global economy and companies getting rich.
> 
> even if that were the case, even if that was the reason why america decided to go to war, it does not affect the individual decisions of hundreds of thousands of proud americans who decided to sign up for the fight. many of us joined for our country, but then learned how horrible Saddam really was. of course, we always fought for each other, but we didnt forget those who were so grateful that we came to iraq. even when we messed up and fired everyone associated with the Baathist party, they still understood what we were doing.
> 
> in iraq, our job was to liberate the iraqi people from a tyrant who had no qualms about gassing his own people. he used chemicals against so many remote villages... chemicals that made them puke their guts up and blistered their skin off before killing them. but hey, its not our fight. who cares if they are doing this to a bright innocent six year old girl who only knows that they really like the flowers that grow on the side of the mountain. its their problem.
> 
> personally, i think we should be doing something. i think those who are getting slaughtered are just as valuable as i am. they are fellow human beings. they are loaded with life experiences, and it kills me when they are thrown away as garbage. i often loose sleep at night just thinking about them and being angry with myself because im not over there fighting with them, teaching them how to fight. but maybe im just an idiot. why would i go to war and kill for no reason and on false pretenses, right?
> 
> http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-victims-of-suspected-syrian-chemical-attack/
> 
> 
> we as americans love to judge others and decide to do nothing when we could do something. Assad has already killed how many thousands of his own people?
> 
> i guess it doesnt matter. we will never lift a hand to help. after all, its not our fight. who cares about them.
> 
> we are americans.
> 
> right?
> 
> 
> The Revolting Syrian-ÙŠÙ„Ø§ Ø¥Ø±Ø*Ù„ ÙŠØ§ Ø¨Ø´Ø§Ø±


Thing is we're always told to "stop policing the world" and to mind our own business. Or "it's just their way/culture/whatever". 

Personally if I had my way I would love nothing more than to set up some nazi-style gas chambers, put all of the savage sub-human scum that lead most middle eastern countries in them then pull the lever and watch them all die horrible agonizing deaths then put women in charge. Unfortunately, "it's just their culture" and "we need to respect their ways no matter how different they are to us" so it'll never happen.


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## NobodySpecial

Garro said:


> Thing is we're always told to "stop policing the world" and to mind our own business. Or "it's just their way/culture/whatever".
> 
> Personally if I had my way I would love nothing more than to set up some nazi-style gas chambers, put all of the savage sub-human scum that lead most middle eastern countries in them then pull the lever and watch them all die horrible agonizing deaths then put women in charge. Unfortunately, "it's just their culture" and "we need to respect their ways no matter how different they are to us" so it'll never happen.


Stick our boots in their ass because it's the American way?


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## NobodySpecial

staarz21 said:


> I don't care for the agenda of why we are there. I don't care about the politics, I don't care about beliefs. My husband does this because he wanted to serve. It was something he always knew he wanted to do.


First, I understand from some recent skimming that thank you for your service is less wonderful than we civs think. In cas that is wrong, please thank your husband for his service.

I DO care. But not as it relates to my potentially draft-able children. There is no fight by power hungry men that is worth my children dying. Period. If they chose to serve, it would be only with my muted acceptance. But for those men and women who DO choose to serve, it would be really nice to know that their lives were not being thrown away to line someone's pockets or to get someone reelected. It would also be nice to know that their veteran's benefits would not be abhorrent.


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