# Points taken from other thread. difference between sexually active vs sexless husband



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rarely do I keep up with every post of a long thread. However I have kept up with the current "sexless marriage" thread that I started awhile back. 

Currently in that thread there is a group of guys that have been in sexless marriages for years and a group of guys that have active sex lives even after many years of marriage. 

They are each duking it out trying to convince the other that they are wrong or trying to convince the other side why they are having sex or why they can not have sex and why the tactics and methods of the other group are wrong for them.

With that thread and countless other dead bedroom (DB) threads, I've noticed a fairly stark contrast between the two groups of men and will try to break that down into some bullet points comparing and contrasting the two groups of men. 

I address the actions and mentalities of the two groups of men and will not address differences in the wives/GFs in question. That may be an interesting additional thread.

So here are some take way points I have noted in the men in all of these DB threads. 
I'll break it down into sexually active vs sexless men.

Here are the mentalities and actions in no particular order that I have noted of the H's that seem to be consistently having a sexually active relationship -

- Have a sex-positive attitude and are not afraid to wear their sexuality on their sleeve and believe that everyone is a sexual being and that sexuality is a positive and healthy force in the cosmos and they make no excuse or apologies for that. 

- have often had multiple serious and casual relationships over the years and have been dumped by women that have not been sexually into them.

-have accepted those dumpings and did not remain "just friends" with them and did not try to maintain a relationship.

-Have also dumped women if the women were not up to their sexual standards. 

-accept rejection and relationships ending as a natural, even if unpleasant, part of human existence. 

-Believe that all women are fundamentally similar to each other and that their is no special snowflake and there is no singular "soulmate." 

-They believe that if one relationship ends, another will follow. 

-they flirt/banter/make sexual innuendo and seduce their partners 24/7 and are sexually "on" at pretty much all times. 

-Are physically affectionate and flirtatious and hug and kiss their partners with purpose and passion all the time. 

-A sexually assertive and are not afraid to seduce and make a hard initiation with their partners; even if their partners are "not in the mood" and even if they are otherwise distracted or worried about other things. In otherwords, sexually active men are not afraid to make a "cold-start" and are determined to initiate a sexual encounter even there are dirty dishes in the sink and even if the kids are still awake. 

-Are not afraid to initiate and move forward with foreplay and sexual assertion until the woman gives a hard-no. 

-Along with that, they will often keep initiating through soft-no's (example: "we can't do that now!") and flimsy, fabricated excuses (example: "the kids aren't asleep, they'll hear!") 

-Have the sexual skills and prowess and techniques to make the sex worthwhile to their partners so that it is a positive experience for them, even if they weren't "in the mood" in the beginning. 

-Understand the importance of remaining fit and healthy and looking good in a long term relationship and do not allow themselves to get fat and slovenly because they have secured a mate. 

-Assume and expect any marital or romantic relationship to be sexual and to have sexuality as an expectation and high priority. 

- are willing to lose said relationship if the sexuality ends. 

-Are aware of their sexual market value and are aware of other women's sexual interest in them.

-Are willing to replace a woman who is not sexually interested in them with one who is. 

-are aware of what actually makes women sexually responsive to them rather that what Oprah and the rest of polite society tells them that women want. ie housekeeping, changing diapers, being errand boy etc

-Have typically had multiple relationships (serious and casual) and multiple sex partners prior to marriage. 

-Have often had other sex partners after and during marriage, ie swinging/open marriage/bisexual wives with FMF threesomes/polyamory and sometimes infidelity as well. 

-have assertive and proactive personalities in general and aren't afraid to pursue their passions and do the things they want. 

-Aren't governed by fear and don't base their self-worth on what others think of them. 

-Do not allow others to push them around or sacrifice their own interests to appease other people or to make other people like or accept them. 

That's why I have noted thus far. I am sure I'll remember some more shortly but these are the things that have jumped out at me from the other threads that the men who are actually having sex how they think and act. 

I will compare and contrast that to the sexless guys in the next post....


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think this one line is the most important difference. Some people are willing to divorce over lack of sex, some are not. 





oldshirt said:


> snip
> -Have also dumped women if the women were not up to their sexual standards.
> 
> snip


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Great post and spot on. You just described my attitude/experiences about 95% correctly.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I can cover that next post for you
- fat lazy slobs.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

You could also just have said, "Are confident, mentally-healthy dudes."


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

This thread is already bashing the same guys, just more passively.

Speaking as a highly sexual and experienced woman...

Using as an example Cletus, Uhtred and Yeti....all 3 of these guys may have every quality you listed in your HD men qualities list. The difference is that they did not follow the same path as some others and due to that, they ended up marrying with true and honest intentions of remaining married til death. Then after they were in pretty deep, they realized they were not going to have the fulfilling sex life they desired.

Now they have a choice. Make the best of it or leave. These men all love their wives. They have many reasons to stay and only one reason to leave. They are also here educating themselves and sharing their knowledge, because they are in fact red blooded men who still desire a better sex life, and so in the absence of one sometimes sexual education can be fulfilling in its way.

Say any of these guys ended up widowed, I would expect if they dated or coupled up again, they would have the kind of sex life they desire.

Also if they had not been married at the time they were and instead they ended up single for awhile before coupling up, I have no doubt that they would have had more fulfilling sexual experiences and relationships.

They are making a choice not just about their sex lives. They know that they could walk away and have a more fulfilling sex life but they are choosing to stay.

Meanwhile, all the advice to these guys about how to start their wives engines are just tiring and condescending at some point. Some people don’t know that these guys have already tried everything so they offer advice in goodwill. But others are just beating their own chests and saying “be more like me and she will want you”.

Like I said, tiring.

I’ve dated men who have come out of relationships like that and found them to be highly sexual and fun and good lovers. There is no reason to assume the 3 guys I’ve mentioned would not be the same as what I have experienced. Just by their very participation in so many sexual threads and topics I can sense that they are sexual beings and would be great lovers (please don’t accuse me of flirting I am just making a point and speaking as someone who could actually make an educated guess about such things. I do have sexdar and all).


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I am one of the guys in the sexless group, although I've never been totally sexless (twice a month). OK, no sex for me right now, but that's a different story.

I would like to "butt in" briefly just to say that in the sexless marriage thread, all the guys in healthy relationships have never been in our situation, but feel entitled to "pontificate", as I say. Also, can I just say that in all these years I've spent on a relationship board I've never seen a guy who's managed to turn his marriage around? Not a single one. And look at the "success stories" post... rather dead, isn't it?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

So by compare and contrast, here are the traits, mentalities and actions in no particular order that I see from the sexless men in these DB threads -

- are fiercely loyal and committed to the relationship despite the misery and suffering it inflicts upon them.

- Take "till death do us part" as literal. 

- often have had few other relationships and few, if any, previous sex partners. 

- believe that their partner is a unique, special flowflake and is their one chance at love and partnership.

- Believe that their partner is asexual, has no interest in sex or lacks libido.

- Believe that their partner must be "in the mood" or be horny in the moment in order for sex to occur. 

-Are afraid to seen by their partner or by society as a horny man or a man who "just wants sex." 

-are afraid to inconvenience their partner or make them uncomfortable. 

-Think that in order for a woman to become aroused and horny, she must become spontaneously horny on her own and believe that a woman cannot become arouse if she is "busy" or is distracted or concerned about other things like dishes in the sink, kids are awake, the carpet needs vacuuming, children are starving in Africa etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

-They are therefor unwilling to do a "Cold-Start" and initiate physical contact and stimulation themselves if she has not already previously agreed it.

- Are immediately shut down if given any token resistance such as "I haven't shaved 'down there'" or "my stomach is a little quesy" or "the kids are awake" or "your Aunt Genevieve is supposed to stop by tonight" etc etc etc etc 

-Believe that sex is dark, dirty and negative force in the world that causes angst and suffering. 

-Believe that male and masculine sexuality is a negative force and that women resent and disparage masculine energy and sexuality.

-Believe that women in general are not sexual beings and do not like or value sex and do not derive sexual pleasure from the sex act. 

-Believe that men who have sex have some kind of special, mysterious trait that they do not have like money, fame, large penis, full head of hair, tall, handsome etc etc. Thus they believe that they are destined to not have a fulfilling sex life and determine to have close companionate relationship instead. 

-will accept a companionate or "just friends" relationship in lieu of a romantic/sexual relationship. 

-Believe antiquated and outright false anti-divorce rhetoric such as they will lose all if their money and resources and will never see their kids again in the event of divorce. 

-Believe that if current relationship ends, they will never have another one and will die alone being eaten by their cats. 

- Are firm believers in the "Sunken Cost Fallacy" that since they have invested this much time, money and resources into current relationship, that they must continue relationship or will lose all that they have put into it in the past. 

- Value comfort, stability, perception in the church and community and not rocking the boat more than their own sexual well being. 

-have crippling fear of rejection and crippling fear of losing the relationship. 

-liken divorce to death and despair it'self. 

-Are convinced that if they can make their mate as comfortable and at peace as possible and always be at her bec-and-call and do nice things for her, that she will sexually desire him. 

-Are often completely clueless and unaware of a woman's subtle signs of sexual interest and availability. 

-Think that a woman's sexual initiation will be like a man's.

-Will often "ask" for sex completely out of the blue, rather than just start touching and kissing and undressing her. 

-Will try to schedule sex in advance such as asking, "can we have sex this coming up Saturday?"

- Are convinced that the woman's lack of sexual response is her lack of libido or her physical or mental ailments rather than his lack of sexual assertion or his lack of sexual prowess or skill. 

- Believe that a woman's aches and pains and complaints of physical and emotional ailments automatically exclude any sexual activity. 

- frequently let themselves go and get fat and lazy and self-indulgent in hobbies and video games etc once married.

-think that a wife should still desire them even though they drink (beer breath) smoke do drugs and get cigarette stained teeth and yellow smoke stains in their unkempt beards and can't understand why they don't. 

-Think that a woman's sexual response is some random, mysterious force that only occurs when the moon is in the 7th house and jupitor lines up with Mars and then only on the 3rd Tuesday of an "R" month and when the Earth's magnetic field fluctuates in response to random solar flare activity. they don't grasp that much of a woman's arousal and response is based on their actions and behaviors. 

-Think that men who have sexually responsive partners have gotten "lucky" and have randomly hit the wife/GF jackpot and that those women are from a different factory and mold than their own wife/GF.

So those are the points I have noted from the posts that the sexless camp has made (ok other than the cigarette-stained beards. no one has actually said that but I have seen it so much in real life and I just don't get it :-O )


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> This thread is already bashing the same guys, just more passively.


That's what I failed to say, but exactly what I intended.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> So by compare and contrast, here are the traits, mentalities and actions in no particular order that I see from the sexless men in these DB threads -
> 
> - are fiercely loyal and committed to the relationship despite the misery and suffering it inflicts upon them.
> 
> ...


Yeah, this one is so full of false attribution, it's not even worth addressing them all.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> I would like to "butt in" briefly just to say that in the sexless marriage thread, all the guys in healthy relationships have never been in our situation


I'm going to disagree with this assertion and say that they HAVE encountered women and relationships that were not sexually satisfying to them. 

Speaking for myself, I have been rejected and dumped several times by women I was dating that after a number of dates or a period of time decided they did not feel "that way" about me and dumped me - I took the dumping and went on my way to other relatinships. I did not accept the "lets just be friends and you can change my oil and help my dad on the farm and hand me tissues when the real men break my heart" deal that they offered me. 

And others that did not meet my needs but were ok with me, I dumped. 

And if you look in the post on that thread I made yesterday about the trials and tribulations that my wife and I have had you will see that I, in fact, have had periods of sexlessness in my marriage. 

I have not experienced multiple years of sexlessness because I would have been gone long before that so yes, it is not totally apples to apples -----

----- but that is my point with this thread; guys that are sexually active over the long haul do in fact do think and act and do things differently than the guys who have been sexless or near sexless for years and years.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

To sum up the two pages of twattle you:
-Are convinced that the woman's sexual response is determined by his sexual assertion or sexual prowess or skill.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> To sum up the two pages of twattle you:
> -Are convinced that the woman's sexual response is *solely *determined by his sexual assertion or sexual prowess or skill.


Added my opinion of the summation of the twattle.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

----- but that is my point with this thread; guys that are sexually active over the long haul do in fact do think and act and do things differently than the guys who have been sexless or near sexless for years and years.

But it has never, and will never, occur to you that you may have crossed up the cause and the effect.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Without a doubt, if a guy has sex as their #1 need, they will tend to seek out women who can meet that need and will leave if that need is being met. But not all men are that obsessive about sex. Yes, all men want sex, but not all men want to devote their lives to getting sex. As an analogy, consider a game like golf. There are many kinds of players:

- *Golf is life*: Spends a significant amount of time on the sport. Watches on TV every weekend. Practices regularly. Has multiple sets of equipment. Goes on golf vacations.
- *Golf is a hobby*: Plays golf 1-2 weekends a month. Watches occasionally on TV.
- *Golf is a casual pastime*: Plays once in a while when friends get together
- *Indifferent player*: Never really plays. May go if some friends are going
- *Hates golf*: No interest. Thinks it's stupid. Won't go at all.

For the "golf is life" player, they will seek out a partner who is as obsessive about golf. If their partner loses interest, they will seek out another partner. There are a lot of guys who are this way with sex. Sex is by far their primary need and they will terminate the relationship no matter what if that need is not met.

I would say a lot of guys are more in the sex as a hobby or pasttime category. It's something they enjoy and want to be part of their lives, but it's something that is just one component out of many. The fact that one component isn't perfect isn't enough to throw away the whole relationship.

The difficulty comes about when the couple was compatible at the start but things change. Just like golf, interest and desire can change over time. Someone who played golf as a hobby may eventually not have as much fun or not have the time. Or maybe they enjoyed the challenge, but now are bored with it. 

I think that happens a lot with sex. I think it's unproductive to the discussion to say that the LD W was just doing a bait-and-switch. Most likely, she really enjoyed the sex at the beginning, but her interests changed over time. Just like we all have hobbies we once enjoyed and now no longer think about, sometimes things change.

I personally thing the biggest challenge in a relationship which has become sexless is getting the LD person to realize that sex is not optional. Everyone can understand that the desire might not be there, but everyone should also realize that it is toxic to the relationship. If the LD person has the attitude "I don't want sex. I won't engage in sex. It's up to you to make me want sex.", then the relationship is over. But if instead the LD person can do some introspection and realize that some level of intimacy must exist and they try to figure out how to make themselves more comfortable with it, then the relationship has a chance. But it also takes the HD person realizing that there have to be compromises on their end as well.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> ----- but that is my point with this thread; guys that are sexually active over the long haul do in fact do think and act and do things differently than the guys who have been sexless or near sexless for years and years.
> 
> But it has never, and will never, occur to you that you may have crossed up the cause and the effect.


If one values sex THAT highly that is what one will do. I, personally, would not want a marriage without a good sex life. But that is not the sum of a relation to me. I would not put up with crazy, or leap from one relationship to the next in pursuit of just sex.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> This thread is already bashing the same guys, just more passively.


Not my intent at all. 

Other than the cigarette-stained beard comment in my second post (which is my own pet peeve that makes my skin crawl) These are the points I have taken away from the countless DB posts and threads I have read over the years. 

I'm not trying to judge or point fingers. 

I am pointing out some of the traits and behaviors and actions that the different camps of people have self-reported. I am not assigning a good or bad value sticker to them. 

I'm not trying bash anyone. I am regurgitating the things that numerous people have stated in their own posts and formulating them into a compare and contrast. 

If you were to compare and contrast an NFL linebacker and an NBA center, you would see that they train differently, have different goals and objectives and carry on in different manners and different activities during the course of their day. If one wants to be an NFL linebacker, one must live and train and think and act like an NFL linebacker. 

The men like Uhtred and RMY et al are fine men and good husbands and fathers and I'm assuming fine upstanding members of their communities. But their actions and attitudes and behaviors are different than those of BluesPower and Personal et al. 


That doesn't make them bad or inept or defective etc. However the differences between them and Blues and Personal etc is also likely contributing factors to their being in or remaining in sexually unsatisfying lives. 

As I said a number of times in the other thread, it's often an issue of values and mores and each individual's temperament and personal boundaries. Some men value remaining married and keeping the kids under one roof 24/7 more than they value their own sexual satisfaction and are willing to sacrifice sexuality. That's their choice. 

Other men aren't willing to make that sacrifice and are willing to walk. Also their choice. 

But my point in this thread is - here are the differences between the two in black and white as I see them as I read these threads and posts. 

I'm not bashing the guy who doesn't train like a linebacker and thus isn't a linebacker. Nor am I bashing the linebacker. But I am pointing out he difference between the two.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> I am one of the guys in the sexless group, although I've never been totally sexless (twice a month). OK, no sex for me right now, but that's a different story.
> 
> I would like to "butt in" briefly just to say that in the sexless marriage thread, all the guys in healthy relationships have never been in our situation, but feel entitled to "pontificate", as I say. Also, can I just say that in all these years I've spent on a relationship board I've never seen a guy who's managed to turn his marriage around? Not a single one. And look at the "success stories" post... rather dead, isn't it?


I turned mine around when it started heading in a limited sex direction.

I will not be in a sexless or near sexless marriage ever.

If Mrs. Conan had medical issues, there is no way I'm leaving. She chooses not to try and that is one step shy of having me served.

I have some empathy for guys and gals in sexless marriages but I don't respect anyone who won't burn a condemned building to the ground and build a new one.

If you choose to live sexless, that is you're decision but don't ask for advice unless it is how to cut your family chimes off.

Mrs. Conan started going through menopause, had church ladies bad mouthing me and her family all at the same time conspiring to get her to start limiting and controlling our sex life by putting me off or denying me.

That mess developed for about 6 months before I ended it decisively and lovingly.
Now...
She has had sex with me anytime I initiate, unless unable to, and she initiates two or three times a week, aggressively, if I don't.

There is one success story and I have read others including horny wives who needed a lot more from their husbands and got it.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

It would be interesting to hear from the women that are involved with each type of relationship. I suspect that the thoughts and feelings we (myself included) attribute to our women might not be 100% accurate. That's the problem with only hearing one side of the conversation. 

As far as the lists go, I agree with about 75% of the first one and much less of the 2nd. 

I will compare my relationship to Rocky's because I think he has really tried to improve his sexual relationship: 

My wife and I both feel that a good sexual relationship is important. We both agree on what a good sexual relationship looks like and it looks the same for both of us so it's easy to work together to achieve that.
Rocky and his wife agree that a good sexual relationship is important. I don't think their view of what a good sexual relationship looks like matches the other so it makes it hard to work together when their goals are different. 

Nothing is wrong with either, they just aren't 100% sexually compatible. They both have to determine what % of compatibility is enough to sustain a happy marriage and see if that number is close enough to work or can be attained. 

I did not know just how sexually compatible I was with my wife when we started dating. We seemed compatible enough as I was getting laid regularly but I really didn't understand what a good sexual relationship looked like for me beyond getting laid regularly until I got much older. 

I suspect Rocky started off the same way and only found out later that his picture of great sex is actually different than that of his wife's. 

My point is that I believe I kind of lucked into my situation and his luck went the other way. 

If we both started over, we would both pick according to what we have learned about ourselves and what it takes to truly make us happy.....nothing would be left to chance.

Rocky, if any of this is wrong, correct it, if any offends you, I will delete it. I picked you because I really think you have tried to close the "satisfaction gap".


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > This thread is already bashing the same guys, just more passively.
> ...


Your list of what the guys in sexless marriages have in common is a gigantic insulting pile of crap.

Again please note - I am a highly sexual woman. And I do know of men who have some of the traits you mentioned in your insulting list. Yet I do not see those traits in (specifically) the 3 guys I mentioned.

The guys I mentioned are mature adults in a hard situation, making the best of it and finding their way. They are not afraid of women’s sexuality, they do not believe women should have the same sexuality that they do, they do not think they should get more sex when they do more laundry.

I don’t know any guy on TAM who matches your entire list. 

And the way you worded your heroic super man list versus your loser sexless man list is just completely insulting and ridiculous. And again, I am a woman who knows what highly sexual men act like and even used to have a blog devoted to my sex god husband, describing what all made him such a successful sexual being. Some of the things on your first list are accurate, but the condescending and insulting way you worded them make them all irrelevant. A real sex god does not go puffing himself and disparaging others.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Not my intent at all.
> 
> Other than the cigarette-stained beard comment in my second post (which is my own pet peeve that makes my skin crawl) These are the points I have taken away from the countless DB posts and threads I have read over the years.
> 
> ...


No, you are not regurgitating things. In fact, you are extrapolating things that were not only not said, but not even implied (at least by most of us).

The only thing you got right is that we take different actions... i.e. trying to make a marriage work in spite of a disconnect, instead of bailing. That and the idea that we may have had less experience before going into marriage, which does apply to me, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that that's universal. There have been posters who have said they had killer sex with their previous partners before marrying someone who ultimately ended up being LD. 

Everything else? Poppycock. Unsubstantiated poppycock at that. Nobody has asserted that the wife must be pre-horny for sex to occur, or that she must have spontaneous desire, etc. All rubbish. As was the crack about getting fat and lazy, etc. I'll be happy to compare physical stats with you or any of the horny dudes on these boards any time. Funny, Uhtred doesn't strike me as a gamer. The examples that belie your condescension are many. 

I am well aware of my overall sexual market value and have never lacked confidence in that regard. If I had a dollar for every time I've been propositioned, even since being married, it'd pay for my next mountain bike. @faithfulwife is right that were I to become a widower, I would enter my next relationship with eyes wide open and expectations well defined. But that in no way implies I lack the confidence or skills to know my current value. 

It's also crap that you assert we're worried about how society may view us. You think Cletus gives a **** what other people think or needs the approval of others to feel good about himself? Have you actually read any of his posts? 

Other than the idea that we may handle certain situations very differently, your entire assessment of the "sexless camp" is utter rubbish.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> ... in the sexless marriage thread, all the guys in healthy relationships have never been in our situation, but feel entitled to "pontificate", as I say. Also, can I just say that in all these years I've spent on a relationship board I've never seen a guy who's managed to turn his marriage around? Not a single one. And look at the "success stories" post... rather dead, isn't it?


I don't post frequently in that thread. However, while I *now* have a very active and healthy sexual relationship, the only way I achieved that was to divorce my first wife where I was in a long-term sexless relationship. And yes, I tried _everything_ to turn that around, to no avail, before finally leaving. I was very careful when choosing this relationship - of course, there was no guarantee the good sex would last, but I also knew that if it did not, I was capable of leaving sooner, rather than later (or not at all). I think I chose well, and was also lucky. Seeing how rare it is to turn things around, my advice is consistently to give it your best try, and then leave within a predetermined time if you don't succeed.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

There are no 'two groups of men'.



oldshirt said:


> Rarely do I keep up with every post of a long thread. However I have kept up with the current "sexless marriage" thread that I started awhile back.
> 
> Currently in that thread there is a group of guys that have been in sexless marriages for years and a group of guys that have active sex lives even after many years of marriage.
> 
> ...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> There are no 'two groups of men'.


There are two types of people in the world:
Those who divide the world into two types and those who don't :wink2:


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Most things on the first list makes those men sound totally unappealing. 
I love a man who has strong moral values, who will stick with his wife though thick and thin and thinks of her and his children before himself. So for me a man's character and integrity are what makes him appealing and attractive or not. Not many of those qualities in the first list.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I have sex every day or every other day (when I am not travelling). It wasn't always like that. We had periods with very little sex. We had periods with no sex. We had periods with (what would be described here as) 'bad' sex / starfish /crab(p) sex. Which of the two groups do I fall into?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

PigglyWiggly said:


> It would be interesting to hear from the women that are involved with each type of relationship. I suspect that the thoughts and feelings we (myself included) attribute to our women might not be 100% accurate. That's the problem with only hearing one side of the conversation.
> 
> As far as the lists go, I agree with about 75% of the first one and much less of the 2nd.
> 
> ...


Nope. That's pretty much spot on.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> I'm going to disagree with this assertion and say that they HAVE encountered women and relationships that were not sexually satisfying to them.



Not at the same level, so their criticism is pointless. Of course everybody is welcome to express their opinion, but it leaves me rather cold... :smile2:


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Nope. That's pretty much spot on.


:toast:


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

I think a big part of the difference is who is more concerned about losing the relationship and who is willing to walk away. If a woman is truly worried that her man will leave if the sex isn't frequent/good then if she values the relationship she'll acquiesce. If the man is truly worried that his woman will leave if he pushes too much for sex then if he values the relationship he'll acquiesce. Once people settle into those patterns then other things on the list start to occur because they are developing patterns that lead to certain secondary behaviors. For instances, if the man is never told no then he'll behave differently when there is resistance vs a man that is frequently told no and has developed an alternative set of behavior patterns. 

For the record my very first real girlfriend had me by the balls and our sex life was poor quality and infrequent. I was afraid of losing her and would do anything to keep her happy until I finally hit my breaking point and dumped her. I learned from that experience what I didn't want in relationships and screened that out proactively and haven't had to deal with it ever after that. So I can see both sides of this and how it can happen. After her I never would tolerate a bad sex life and I project that level of confidence, so I've not had to deal with it since. A negative counterpoint was back when I was married there were a few times my wife wasn't really in the mood but she was afraid that if she said no I'd leave her. So all that happened was she gave in to me rather than me giving in to her. Overall we had a very good and mutually satisfying sex life most of our marriage, but the power imbalance was there and it did affect her choices and behaviors. 

Your list for the sexless men was pretty insulting, btw.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> Not at the same level, so their criticism is pointless. Of course everybody is welcome to express their opinion, but it leaves me rather cold... :smile2:



Yep. It would be like telling a paraplegic, "I know how you feel. My foot fell asleep once."


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> There are two types of people in the world:
> Those who divide the world into two types and those who don't :wink2:


Yep:smile2:


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> I don’t know any guy on TAM who matches your entire list.
> 
> And the way you worded your heroic super man list versus your loser sexless man list is just completely insulting and ridiculous.


Noone knows a man who completely matches either list. No such man actually exists. 

All men are going to be mix of those traits in differing degrees and levels of predominance. No man is either a pure example of one list or the other. 

-I myself can self-identify with several traits and characteristics from both lists. And some of them I do not identify with traits and behaviors from either list. 

It is like rounding up 100 men at random, measuring their height and determining an average height to the nearest 100th or even 1000th of an inch. The chances are good that not a single man will actually be the average height. 

So too is this. No man is going to match that entire list and all of us are going to be an amalgamation of those things to one degree or another. 

Please also keep in mind that this is not sociological research. It is not a scientific study. And it is not meant to be a guide or game plan or list of things to do for anyone. 

It is simply what one average joe has noted from reading hundreds of posts on relationship forums on the topic of sexless (or near sexless) marriages over the years. These are the points I have noted from posts where guys lacking sex have self-described contrasted against guys self-reporting that they are still sexually active. 

This is my take-away from what the different groups of guys have said about themselves and their situation. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> It is simply what one average joe has noted from reading hundreds of posts on relationship forums on the topic of sexless (or near sexless) marriages over the years. These are the points I have noted from posts where guys lacking sex have self-described contrasted against guys self-reporting that they are still sexually active.
> 
> This is my take-away from what the different groups of guys have said about themselves and their situation. Nothing more, nothing less.


Ok fair enough.

Now - do you accept that some of us reading your lists are telling you that *the wording you have used to describe "sexless men" is condescending, insulting, and just plain mean in some cases*?

I have also been reading literally thousands of stories on forums for over a decade. I too have focused on sex issues (because it is the most interesting to me) and have collected my own thoughts on the traits some people have in common. Yet I could write such a list without making anyone sound weak, stupid, ignorant and immature.

You chose the words you used and for whatever reason, you chose to be insulting and demeaning with those words. 

And you and others have done the same thing over and over to some of these TAM guys on lots of threads besides this one.

Say what you want but at least be honest about it - - you intend to demean these people. For what reason, I cannot imagine. But it makes me no longer respect your opinion about this or any other topic. There's just no need for your mean, bitter attitude towards people who are here or elsewhere. They don't deserve it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

QFT




Faithful Wife said:


> This thread is already bashing the same guys, just more passively.
> 
> Speaking as a highly sexual and experienced woman...
> 
> ...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Noone knows a man who completely matches either list. No such man actually exists.
> 
> All men are going to be mix of those traits in differing degrees and levels of predominance. No man is either a pure example of one list or the other.
> 
> ...


Which would be fine if you were actually sharing what guys actually said about themselves. But you flat out made **** up that had no basis in any of these discussions.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> To sum up the two pages of twattle you:
> -Are convinced that the woman's sexual response is determined by his sexual assertion or sexual prowess or skill.


I don't think that's enough and there's plenty of instances where all of that isn't necessary either.

One can be accomplished, attractive, assertive, confident and have all the sexual prowess and skill in the world, yet that doesn't guarantee that they won't find themselves in a sexless or limited sex, sexual relationship.

I don't think any relationship is perfect, there's always one leg of the chair that needs tightening. Even then if you tighten that leg, another will come loose.

Sure ones mindset does make a difference, yet so do many other things as well including the mindset of those that one is with.

Yet random happenstance also makes a difference as well. A few feet made the difference between my wife only having to have her face repaired with plastic surgery, versus having brain damage and becoming a quadriplegic with a tremendous amount of smashed bones (which happened to the others). While in those same moments less than an inch saw me entirely untouched, except for being splashed with my wife's blood.

One can only do the best they feel they can, given the happenstance, opportunities, resources and experience they have.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FW,
Sans telepathic super powers - I don’t believe you can assign intent to someone - with any degree of confidence. 




Faithful Wife said:


> Ok fair enough.
> 
> Now - do you accept that some of us reading your lists are telling you that *the wording you have used to describe "sexless men" is condescending, insulting, and just plain mean in some cases*?
> 
> ...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> FW,
> Sans telepathic super powers - I don’t believe you can assign intent to someone - with any degree of confidence.
> 
> 
> ...


I should have worded that part differently, that many of us hear words that sound condescending and mean. True that he may not have intended this. My point in pointing it out that some of us see it that way is that he may want to reconsider the way he presented it. 

Even I took offense at his words and they are not about me. My interpretation of his words is that they are mean and demoralizing for no good purpose. If he didn’t mean them that way, ok then. They still sound that way to me.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> I'll break it down into sexually active vs sexless men.


*This thread sounds like the PUA Commandments of Poon.* 

https://heartiste.wordpress.com/the-sixteen-commandments-of-poon/



> The Sixteen Commandments Of Poon
> I. Never say ‘I Love You’ first
> 
> Women want to feel like they have to overcome obstacles to win a man’s heart. They crave the challenge of capturing the interest of a man who has other women competing for his attention, and eventually prevailing over his grudging reluctance to award his committed exclusivity. The man who gives his emotional world away too easily robs women of the satisfaction of earning his love. Though you may be in love with her, don’t say it before she has said it. Show compassionate restraint for her need to struggle toward yin fulfillment. Inspire her to take the leap for you, and she’ll return the favor a thousandfold.
> ...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I turned mine around when it started heading in a limited sex direction.
> 
> I will not be in a sexless or near sexless marriage ever.
> 
> ...


yes, but you still need cooperation, someone who is willing to work with you. That's the difference. I spent 15 years of my life trying absolutely everything. I failed. Now it's finished.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Anyway, I just read the part on the sexless men and my reaction is one and only... :slap:


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> *the wording you have used to describe "sexless men" is condescending, insulting, and just plain mean in some cases*?
> 
> I have also been reading literally


I just find insulting... I don't see the point of applying generalisations like these to single situations, especially when you haven't been in one.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Well this thread is going well...

Why do people care what some of the traits are if they don’t apply to them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Why do people care what some of the traits are if they don’t apply to them?



People care because they want to point out that generalisations like that are a useless exercise... especially coming from people who have no first hand experience...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> People care because they want to point out that generalisations like that are a useless exercise... especially coming from people who have no first hand experience...



Yes that’s fine, of course they are useless, but why get offended?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> but why get offended?


I'm not offended... I'm insulted. Big difference.


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

I dismiss the two lists as being mostly bull****. I match more of the first list by a considerable margin over the second list, and yet I classify my marriage as sexless. 

There is far more to this subject than can be summarized in two categories.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

"Speaking as a highly sexual and experienced woman..."

:smile2: This always makes me smile. Whenever I read this comment on a sexless men marriage thread (which is every time), I have this image in my mind of arriving at a village in Africa, full of starving children and showing them photo albums after photo albums of all my food 'porn' I ever collected while telling them 'if only you knew what was out there'...

Now _that_ is something I _might_ find offensive, if I was in a sexless marriage and *still married*, and more importantly: _*wanted to stay married*_. Or at the very best insensitive. What is the purpose? Why would these men *not* know what was out there? 
I would bring at least a doggie bag with leftovers or something, next time I travel. :wink2:

To be fair, same goes for comments from men who show off their amazing sex life and man 'prowess'. It doesn't really help those guys.

Whatever happened to the old fashioned advice? Finding a communication channel. Finding a good MC. Finding a compromise. The chances of turning things around or improvement are actually not that low, despite the mantra to the contrary.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Whatever happened to the old fashioned advice? Finding a communication channel. Finding a good MC. Finding a compromise. The chances of turning things around or improvement are actually not that low, despite the mantra to the contrary.


The advice is _usually_ worthless, because it so rarely works. Turning things around - or even modest improvement - just does not happen often enough to focus mostly on that process. Yes, it's necessary to try, IMO, because _occasionally_ it can make a difference, or at least assuage any guilt for deciding to leave without trying one more time. But for most, advice on how to live with the ongoing issue - or how to leave - is more useful.

In my case, I did try all the things people and counselors suggested to change things, and when that didn't work, I tried all the ideas on how to live with it or accept it. In the end, neither worked, and I spend years unhappily seeking answers that didn't exist for my situation - and don't work for most others in similar situations.

If the source of the problem is the person complaining about the lack of sex, then there may be some hope of self-improvement and thus of improving the sexlessness. However, if the problems have existed for too long, then their partner may not respond to the improvements and changes. And if the partner is the real source of the problem, then it is extremely unlikely that self-improvement will persuade _them_ to change.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Lack of sex is usually the symptom of something much bigger. I tried too. Tried to change my wife. Tried to change myself. It took years. Nothing worked. Didn't find the answers and the marriage came to its natural end. Unfortunately, as I said before, you need your partner to be cooperative. Sexless marriages happen when one of the partners has bailed out. You can't fix that.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

I often hear people criticize my advice for self-improvement in an effort to turn around a dead bedroom situation. "That doesn't work if your partner isn't on board!"

The reality is that I always end my advice by pointing out that your self-improvement MAY produce a better sex life with your wife, but it very well may not (for a variety of valid reasons)... but, thanks to your efforts, you are in the mental and physical space that will allow you to have a loving and sexual relationship (or multiple relationships) with other people. You gotta make that move to get the momentum going.

THIS is the difference between group A and B.

GROUP A: "I don't like this. I've tried all I can. This really sucks... but I now know these efforts will get me nowhere and I'm going to leave. Life is too damn short."

GROUP B: "I don't like this. I've tried all I can. This really sucks, but there's really nothing I can do. Leaving her would cause too much pain for both her and I and our kids. I have no choice but to stay. In the meantime, I will post literally thousands of times on the internet complaining about my situation and telling other people that they just don't understand and this is NOT my fault. It's my stupid LL wife. If she would just TRY all this would get better. Nobody understands. Yeah, maybe I should leave... but I feel I'm a better person for staying."


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Very good point, dad starting over. The only person I can control and change is me.

But it's so much more comforting to do nothing and blame my spouse. Thing is....even if my spouse IS to blame....

The only person I can control and change is me.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> The advice is _usually_ worthless, because it so rarely works.



That’s the kind of stuff you hear from a self-selected group of one (or a few) and people who come to these boards read it, lose hope and give up.
Why not google some statistics instead? This will answer the question.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Now - do you accept that some of us reading your lists are telling you that *the wording you have used to describe "sexless men" is condescending, insulting, and just plain mean in some cases*?


You have to call it something and I didn't want to use the worn out "alpha' vs 'beta' that you see in all the Redpill and PUA sites. I guess I could have used get'n it vs not get'n it, but I'm not sure that sounds any better. 

And I was not intentionally trying to be demeaning or put anyone down. This is a very sensitive topic for many people and I think anything discussing men being sexually frustrated is going to generate some angst. 


Many of the things on each list are positive traits and good behaviors and some on each list are not. We are all a mix of those things and we have some things we are good at and some things that are not so much. 

A couple things I want to point out specifically in that regard it is a very honorable and generally a very good thing that people take their vows seriously and have committed themselves to their wives and are dedicated to working through issues through thick and thin. And it is an honorable and good thing when guys do their best to make their wives feel as safe and secure as possible and to not rock the boat and not pressure them or try to make them do things they do not want to do. Those are usually very good things and part of what makes a good husband and father. 

This is how all of our grandmothers want us to be. These ARE good men and these are the kind of men we want our daughters and sisters to find. So I'm not intentionally meaning to demean anyone or put anyone down. 

However, there comes a point where that devotion and commitment and that dedication to making her comfortable and secure and that commitment to "death do us part" becomes detrimental to his own well-being. 

There comes a point where his needs are not being met and his well being is being negatively impacted. There comes a point where his soul is being crushed and if he stays on his course of not rocking the boat, not taking definitive action and ultimately not jumping ship means he is going to go down with it. 

It takes strength and honor and courage to commit to a marriage that is always going to have periodic ups and downs and troubles and issues. I do respect that. 

But the cost of that is that at some point, that commitment and devotion become toxic and detrimental. When someone is going under water with the ship, it is detrimental to keep holding on to the railing. 

I am just saying that these are differences that I see the people who are swimming and surviving vs the people that are drowning.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Glad to see that the peanut gallery has yet to comprehend the concept of root cause. 

All the positive, manly, straight from MMSLP offerings will be as effective as trying to teach Python to my cat. 

Further, the gallery fails to fully understand demographics (30s vs 50s), deprioritizes socioeconomic conditions resulting from divorce to absurd levels, and basically focuses on one metric of marriage alone.

Finally, the gallery fails to recognize different responses possible. It's easy to cowtower or steamroll or manipulate a weaker, financially dependent, or inexperienced spouse but not quite as easy with a decades long veteran of male dominated corporate bull****...

The advice is sound, don't get me wrong, but without understanding the innards of a relationship from all angles it's largely useless and self serving.

Or as we said in the Saab forum, "a Camry"


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Which would be fine if you were actually sharing what guys actually said about themselves. But you flat out made **** up that had no basis in any of these discussions.


Again, this is not scientific research, it is not a research paper for a professional, peer-reviewed journal and it is not meant as a guide or advice for people struggling with some kind of issue. 

It is points I have taken from reading many posts and threads over a period of years. These are points I have taken from what people who are in sexually active relationships have said and points that I have taken from people who are in sexually-challenged (is that a more PC term? ) marriages have said. 

Yes, it is true that I did not take exact excerpts and these are not direct quotes. I had 20 minutes of free time and so it was something I did from my memory and in my own words. 

Another self-admitted short coming of my posts is I did not intend to address the female aspect of this at all. This was simply what I have picked up in what the men have written from their own perspectives and the comparisons and contrasts between the two groups of men and the differences I have seen in what they have done. 

Obviously it has rubbed a number of people the wrong way. That was not my intent and I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, but I do see contrasts in how the two different groups of men conduct their personal business. 

I was stating what I have taken away from those posts.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

To unfortunately repeat myself once again, please leave the social sciences to the social scientists .

This here Tam has a few groups of people. Those in troubled relationships seeking input, those who have overcome trouble and have input to share, and a good number of well intended members that have great relationships and also offer input. 

The catch is selection bias. If one lucked out in the marital lottery and has what they need, this somehow doesn't make one an expert in helping others get there. This isn't like running triathlons or writing software. It takes, for lack of a better word, teamwork. While the rest of the team takes a knee. 

Having done human behavior case studies since the early 80s I'll let you in on a secret. We consider all the variables in a case. But we don't scrutinize everything n-ways as to how it is different from our specific case. It's the aggregate that matters. 

Also, self reported information is generally not as reliable in the grand scheme of things. My labs existence is based upon this very fact. It's easy to see our relative success and attribute it all to our own actions. But that's not how the behavioral sciences work. 

The first - and generally only - suggestion I offer here is to know what you are dealing with. Not how many reps to do or how expensive a suit to buy. Once you understand what is there these suggestions are often useful. But they may not always be realistic or applicable.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> yes, but you still need cooperation, someone who is willing to work with you. That's the difference. I spent 15 years of my life trying absolutely everything. I failed. Now it's finished.


I would say your wife is the one who failed.

The only advice I would have given you years ago would be to have a definite hard line that you would act on if she didn't reform.

6 months and I had enough. I would have moved on from a wife I truly loved and I somberly let her know that she was letting me go.

If she hadn't dropped the nonsense, I would have spent the last several years with another warming my bed.

She decided she still wanted to fill that role because I let her know that it would be filled but my only choice was her until she decided not to.

I'm not sexless or even LD and I'm not going to pretend otherwise. I have never wanted for female companions and, if I have any say over it, I never will.

I feel for your situation but you could have changed it and you still can.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I would say your wife is the one who failed.
> 
> The only advice I would have given you years ago would be to have a definite hard line that you would act on if she didn't reform.
> 
> ...



The situation has changed as in she has turned off the sex tap completely, so the marriage is over.

Regarding the rest, I did give her an ultimatum and we were in the brink of divorce when she changed her mind. It slowly dwindled again, but she was clever enough to give me just about what I needed to stay put. And I didn't want to leave because of the kids. And then she turned the tables saying I frightened her with my anger during the difficult times. Maybe it's true. Maybe she's been playing me all along. I just believe she is messed up. As you can see, there's a million of different things at play. It's not black and white. It changes all the time. Anyhow, it's over now.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

john117 said:


> Glad to see that the peanut gallery has yet to comprehend the concept of root cause.
> 
> All the positive, manly, straight from MMSLP offerings will be as effective as trying to teach Python to my cat.
> 
> ...


John,

There is a hole here, regarding "responses". 

We know you can't change someone else, but someone's different behavior might in turn elicit different responses from a partner.

That being said, boundaries of what you are willing, or not willing to accept in a relationship are FOR YOURSELF ONLY. It's not anything to do with manipulating or steamrolling a partner, so it matters not one whit if they are weaker and financially dependent, or are more experienced through years of corporate experience.

If your boundary is you want to be in a relationship with someone who is honestly attracted to you, wants and needs to connect with you sexually on a regular basis, and works with you to make sure you needs as well as hers are addressed, it doesn't matter if she's been out of the work force for decades or is a shark who earns 250k a year. Love and desire can't be faked. Either a woman has it for you, or not. I'm sure a man can tell if his partner is faking it and just putting up with sexual encounters because she wants the relationship for financial and security reasons only and isn't truly into him. And THAT is why it doesn't matter if she is weak or a shark. Either she has enough attraction and true love for you, or she doesn't.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

The only thing I find worthy of demeaning is the choice to remain in sexless or sexually unfulfilling marriages and not accept it and complain about it.

I fully understand and respect @Cletus

He communicates well and illuminated his situation to be understood here.

I actually wasn't aware of RMY's situation so I can't comment.

uthred??? No idea there either.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Thank you for the succinct proof that most humans don't understand how science works, thus enabling the rest of us to earn top dollars for shuffling spreadsheets all day 

Thing is, Livvie, this happens slowly. Over years. And as such, most people can't see the minute delta's in their or their partner behaviors. 

Nobody goes from wild monkey sex pre marriage to 1x a month post in a couple months. It's a slow slippery slope. Responses become automatic and we adjust to our partners' behavior as much they adjust to ours .

Intimacy is not in the same place as taking out the trash. For the most part it's initial choice and upbringing more than minute changes in on going behavior. We can rationalize all we want about why or who or what. But no amount of advice or behaviors will turn around a former CSA survivor, a mental health issues person, a family of origin mess, or a cultural or religious wreck. May make it tolerable for a while but down the road nope...

Not to mention people change. From wild makeout sessions in the grad library carrels to living together long before it was politically correct to what not, to the current status involves a lot of change. Often good, sometimes not.

Eventually it becomes clear, and usually the right action is taken and people go their ways. But we can (and have) played the response game untill the cleats wear off.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Still only comments from people who never experienced a sexless or nearly sexless marriage. It's easy to say: I would do this and that. I can assure you: it's not as easy as it looks, especially after 25 years of marriage, after a whole life together, kids and all the rest. Of course any point of view is worth reading, but again, I remain sceptical... :laugh:


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> That’s the kind of stuff you hear from a self-selected group of one (or a few) and people who come to these boards read it, lose hope and give up.
> Why not google some statistics instead? This will answer the question.
> 
> 
> ...


Then please do so, and enlighten us. Can you provide any reliable statistics that contradict what I said?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Still only comments from people who never experienced a sexless or nearly sexless marriage. It's easy to say: I would do this and that. I can assure you: it's not as easy as it looks, especially after 25 years of marriage, after a whole life together, kids and all the rest. Of course any point of view is worth reading, but again, I remain sceptical... :laugh:


As I said earlier, I was in a 24 year sexless marriage, and having tried changing the circumstances and changing myself, I left! No, it wasn't easy- the trying (which did NOT work), OR the leaving - but it was _very_ worth it because IT WORKED FOR ME. Ever since, I have been in a very happy, compatible, and wonderfully sexual relationship for nearly 19 years now.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> As I said earlier, I was in a 24 year sexless marriage, and having tried changing the circumstances and changing myself, I left! No, it wasn't easy- the trying (which did NOT work), OR the leaving - but it was _very_ worth it because IT WORKED FOR ME. Ever since, I have been in a very happy, compatible, and wonderfully sexual relationship for nearly 19 years now.


I've had 10 bad years in 33 years together (and sex never stopped completely). This is probably why I never left. Those 10 years were terrible and nearly killed me. I thought we reached a good balance recently (last 5 years), but I was wrong. This latest twist has left me totally baffled. I did not expect it. I guess it's for the best, then, because, once again, obviously I didn't really know what was going on in my wife's head... :frown2:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Then please do so, and enlighten us. Can you provide any reliable statistics that contradict what I said?


Tam's SIM used to be far more active when I joined 5 or 6 years ago. Lots of long winded thousands of posts threads about this guy or that. Now, a voter ID or gun thread gets more posts and views than any ten topics in SIM.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

john117 said:


> Tam's SIM used to be far more active when I joined 5 or 6 years ago. Lots of long winded thousands of posts threads about this guy or that. Now, a voter ID or gun thread gets more posts and views than any ten topics in SIM.


True... I joined in 2012 coming from another board and it was thriving here... I think the other board is now busier... :smile2:


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> Still only comments from people who never experienced a sexless or nearly sexless marriage. It's easy to say: I would do this and that. I can assure you: it's not as easy as it looks, especially after 25 years of marriage, after a whole life together, kids and all the rest. Of course any point of view is worth reading, but again, I remain sceptical... :laugh:


Read @marriedbuthappy post #66 a couple extra times and see what he is saying. 

He WAS in a long term sexually unsatisfactory marriage. He try a wide variety of things to improve himself and improve his situation. His sex life was still not something he could accept anymore and he dissolved the marriage and found someone who did desire him and was sexually compatible with him and he is now in a good place sexually. 

That is his first-hand testimony of what worked for him. 


Many other posters have shared very similar accounts. 

One of the big differences between people who are currently in sexually unsatisfactory relationships and people who used to be in sexually unsatisfactory relationships but are now in good sexual relationships is those people who are in good relationships left the bad ones, where as the people who are currently in unsatisfactory are still there. 


Simple compare and contrast. What are some differences between A and B? 

I am not assigning a value or a judgement or saying one is right or one is wrong or that one person is better or stronger or cooler or studlier that the other. I am saying what are the differences between the two.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Still only comments from people who never experienced a sexless or nearly sexless marriage. It's easy to say: I would do this and that. I can assure you: it's not as easy as it looks, especially after 25 years of marriage, after a whole life together, kids and all the rest. Of course any point of view is worth reading, but again, I remain sceptical... :laugh:


It is silly that you posted this while obviously ignoring my post.

I avoided it. Others have as well. My marriage has had plenty of troubles including sexual.

You made far different choices than me. I will not demean you for them but I'll be pickled if I'll not challenge you when you try and demean, or flat out ignore, my posts that contradict some of your conceptions.

There are many who have succeeded where your marriage did not.

To be dismissive of success speaks far more to your attitude than to the ones who succeeded.

It has been very difficult at many points in my marriage not to divorce but we have worked very hard towards building and preserving it.

Quit being dismissive just because your wife didn't really try and you had too much patience or inertia to change your situation.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> It is silly that you posted this while obviously ignoring my post.
> 
> I avoided it. Others have as well. My marriage has had plenty of troubles including sexual.
> 
> ...



Sorry, looks like I missed your post. Apologies. It wasn't intentional...

EDIT: I did reply to your post... but you did say that you've never been in a sexless marriage... you've had problems, but not long term... you turned it around. Ok, I guess I didn't read it properly, but I wasn't being dismissive.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Livvie said:


> John,
> 
> There is a hole here, regarding "responses".
> 
> ...


Astronomically well said!


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> This thread is already bashing the same guys, just more passively.
> 
> Speaking as a highly sexual and experienced woman...
> 
> ...


And it seems some Ws are tiring and condescending to their Hs. And Hs get wore down like a knife that's been sharpened too much. 

*I admit I cherry picked here 😉


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> I thought we reached a good balance recently (last 5 years), but I was wrong. This latest twist has left me totally baffled. I did not expect it. I guess it's for the best, then, because, once again, obviously I didn't really know what was going on in my wife's head... :frown2:


You may not have been wrong. Those 5 years may have been rightfully good. 

I can't remember your age but I believe we are close in age (I am 54) and things do change pretty quickly at this time in our lives. 

In my own case, my wife is now barely recognizable from the person she was 5 years ago (y'gotta love menopause and other health issues that come with 50 :-O ) 

And while I have not changed as drastically or have had as many immediate health effects of age, I am not the same man I was 5 years ago either. 

And since we are both different people than we were 5 years ago, our marriage is obviously different than it was 5 years ago. 

Things are different now and will change even further going into the future. But that does not negate anything that has occurred in the past. The good times were good. The bad times were bad. Today it is what it is today. I have no idea about tomorrow. 

But my point here is those 5 years were good for you and even though the playing field is completely different today, that does not mean that those 5 years are negated or erased. It just means things are different now and they are going to be much different going forward than what they were 5 years ago. 

And it doesn't even necessarily mean that she duped you or pulled the wool over your eyes or anything. 

Maybe she did. But it sounds like sex has never really been a Brazilian carnival orgy for your two so this is probably just a kind of a natural conclusion with age and kids growing up and menopause and changing lifestyles and life-goals and ambitions etc. 

My life is completely different that it was 5 years ago and unrecognizable from 10 years ago. 5 years from now, today may be a distant memory.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

john117 said:


> To unfortunately repeat myself once again, please leave the social sciences to the social scientists .
> 
> This here Tam has a few groups of people. Those in troubled relationships seeking input, those who have overcome trouble and have input to share, and a good number of well intended members that have great relationships and also offer input.
> 
> ...


This is not rocket science. 

Nor is it social science. 

There is no science here. 

My posts and this thread are science and I have never implied that they were. Nothing on this site is science. These entire forums are people who's hobby in their free time is to discuss marital, sexual and relationship matters. 

None of us are professionals and nothing that is ever said here should ever be construed as professional marital, sexual or legal advice. 

Your just a guy who drives a SAAB and posts on an anonymous relationship forum when he feels like it. 

I am just a guy who drives a Dodge Ram truck and posts on an anonymous relationship forum when I feel like it. 

This is all just opinion and wild guesses and things we've all pulled out of our butts based on our own readings, educations, life experiences and things we've heard through the grapevine from other people and things our Aunt Matilda have told us.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Again, this is not scientific research, it is not a research paper for a professional, peer-reviewed journal and it is not meant as a guide or advice for people struggling with some kind of issue.
> 
> It is points I have taken from reading many posts and threads over a period of years. These are points I have taken from what people who are in sexually active relationships have said and points that I have taken from people who are in sexually-challenged (is that a more PC term? ) marriages have said.
> 
> ...


I think the problem is that you have overgeneralized based on a lot of old posts. Yes, over the years, there have been posts about guys letting themselves go, or whining because their wives don't jump their bones while they're sitting on the couch with a beer and a bag of cheetos, etc.

But you put out this analysis in response to more recent threads that demonstrate few, if any of the characteristics you're blanket attributing to people who don't fit the mold you've built. It's badly misplaced.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> Then please do so, and enlighten us. Can you provide any reliable statistics that contradict what I said?


No statistics are 'reliable'. 

First hit:

LMGTFY

_According to research done by the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, families and couples who have attended family or couples therapy sessions indicate high levels of patient satisfaction. Over 98 percent of those surveyed reported that they received good or excellent couples therapy, *and over 97 percent of those surveyed said they got the help they needed*. After working with a marriage or family therapist, 93 percent of patients said they had more effective tools for dealing with their problems. Respondents also reported improved physical health and the ability to function better at work after attending therapy._

Since sexlessness is usually a symptom of other problems, you need to first work out what the root cause is, as John rightly said. 

Contrast it with this:

_The overwhelming majority said, “We talk about it but nothing changes” but only 14 percent had gone to couples counseling and only 3 percent to a sex therapist._

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/abby-rodman-licsw/survey-says-the-real-scoo_b_6857996.html

How many people actually went to a MC or sex therapist before they gave up?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> How many people actually went to a MC or sex therapist before they gave up?


we did and we didn't give up... it took us another 10 years... :smile2:


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I think the problem is that you have overgeneralized based on a lot of old posts. Yes, over the years, there have been posts about guys letting themselves go, or whining because their wives don't jump their bones while they're sitting on the couch with a beer and a bag of cheetos, etc.
> 
> But you put out this analysis in response to more recent threads that demonstrate few, if any of the characteristics you're blanket attributing to people who don't fit the mold you've built. It's badly misplaced.


Do you have to thread? I don't know your story but would like to.

Your posts make you seem well balanced and healthy and I didn't envision you in a sexless or sexually unfulfilled marriage.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> I've had 10 bad years in 33 years together (and sex never stopped completely). This is probably why I never left. Those 10 years were terrible and nearly killed me. I thought we reached a good balance recently (last 5 years), but I was wrong. This latest twist has left me totally baffled. I did not expect it. I guess it's for the best, then, because, once again, obviously I didn't really know what was going on in my wife's head... :frown2:


What was the latest twist? I hate twists.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Do you have to thread? I don't know your story but would like to.
> 
> Your posts make you seem well balanced and healthy and I didn't envision you in a sexless or sexually unfulfilled marriage.


The thread entitled "Sexless marriage - see what you are up against" kind of evolved into my thread for a few pages (starting in the mid 20s and running in and out through the mid 30s). I also did start this thread:

https://talkaboutmarriage.com/gener.../411658-could-interesting-valentines-day.html

But it hasn't been all complaints. This is my favorite:
https://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-term-success-marriage/385353-reflecting-30-years-since-i-do.html


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> This is not rocket science.
> 
> Nor is it social science.
> 
> ...


I beg to differ.

I have three college degrees in the social sciences, have a solid understanding of statistics and research methods, and above all, I can, and have, digest hundreds or thousands of posts down to useful information.

One of the projects that propelled me to stardom at work was literally coming up with a process that reads the hundreds of consumer reviews of our stuff (electronics) and makes sense of what's happening. Believe me, it is science. Just like anything else. 

That doesn't make my experience any better or more valid, but it does make identifying patterns and factors a bit better.

The Saab was traded in 2012 for a Mini Cooper S. Hopefully next year if the lawyers don't burn a lot of cash it will be a 2019 Mini Cooper John Cooper Works .

https://www.miniusa.com/model/john-cooper-works.html


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> _According to research done by the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, families and couples who have attended family or couples therapy sessions indicate high levels of patient satisfaction. Over 98 percent of those surveyed reported that they received good or excellent couples therapy, *and over 97 percent of those surveyed said they got the help they needed*. After working with a marriage or family therapist, 93 percent of patients said they had more effective tools for dealing with their problems. Respondents also reported improved physical health and the ability to function better at work after attending therapy._
> 
> Since sexlessness is usually a symptom of other problems, you need to first work out what the root cause is, as John rightly said


We actually went to MC and individual therapy, for years. The MC did not help whatsoever, _except_ to clarify that we couldn't solve our issues. I guess that's a positive outcome of sorts. However, the individual sessions did help _immensely_ in helping me to decide to leave her. So, yes, I was _very_ satisfied with my therapy. I got the help I needed to leave! And I did improve my physical health, work functioning, and outlook on life when I left.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I think the problem is that you have overgeneralized based on a lot of old posts. Yes, over the years, there have been posts about guys letting themselves go, or whining because their wives don't jump their bones while they're sitting on the couch with a beer and a bag of cheetos, etc.
> 
> But you put out this analysis in response to more recent threads that demonstrate few, if any of the characteristics you're blanket attributing to people who don't fit the mold you've built. It's badly misplaced.


I agree with a couple points he made but you will as well.

One being an unwillingness to continue a marriage that is sexually unfulfilled.

I haven't analyzed the other points but that one is 100% accurate.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> We actually went to MC and individual therapy, for years. The MC did not help whatsoever, _except_ to clarify that we couldn't solve our issues. I guess that's a positive outcome of sorts. However, the individual sessions did help _immensely_ in helping me to decide to leave her. So, yes, I was _very_ satisfied with my therapy. I got the help I needed to leave! And I did improve my physical health, work functioning, and outlook on life when I left.


Glad you got healthy!


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I agree with a couple points he made but you will as well.
> 
> One being an unwillingness to continue a marriage that is sexually unfulfilled.
> 
> I haven't analyzed the other points but that one is 100% accurate.


Agreed. In a previous post, while pointing out all the other ways he's royally effed up this one, I acknowledged that particular distinction is spot on.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> We actually went to MC and individual therapy, for years. The MC did not help whatsoever, _except_ to clarify that we couldn't solve our issues. I guess that's a positive outcome of sorts. However, the individual sessions did help _immensely_ in helping me to decide to leave her. So, yes, I was _very_ satisfied with my therapy. I got the help I needed to leave! And I did improve my physical health, work functioning, and outlook on life when I left.




See? The old fashioned advice still works 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

We went to a couple different MCs a couple different times. 

It did help and things did improve and so we did remain together.

The MC did call me out on a few things so I do want to make clear that I had to own some of my issues and I did have to change a number of things I was doing. 

But what I think the real turning point in our MC experience was when the MC got real serious with my W and told her that my needs were real and they were valid and that I would be within my right dissolve the marriage. He also impressed on her that I had one foot out the door and that my divorce plan post-divorce goals and visions were realistic and that if she wanted to remain married and have the family under one roof that she was going to have to take my needs and goals seriously and make some changes in how she was conducting her business. 


That did not "cure" our issues (which did include sexual, but also a whole host of other relationship issues) but what it did do was woke her up to the fact I was serious and that I was ready, willing and able to nuke the marriage from orbit if things did not start turning around pronto. 

It brought her to the negotiating table and forced her to open her mouth and address the things that were causing her problems in our marriage and I was able to do many of the things she needed to make her good with me. 

Had she basically said, "no" to the things brought up in MC, that would have been that.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Agreed. In a previous post, while pointing out all the other ways he's royally effed up this one, I acknowledged that particular distinction is spot on.


I read what you are going through and have posted several responses but the site keeps malfunctioning and erasing them.

You and I are just as honorable about commitments but our foundations differ.

I am not really nice but good. You are nicer than me and more civil.

The mates I attracted all had sex bunny 🐰 as part of their résumé.

Your wife probably has non sexual attributes that mine lacks.

I had to have a sex kitten 🐱 and other attributes were negotiable. You, while wanting the whole package and who doesn't, had less of a requirement in the sexual arena.

My own marriage has struggled greatly financially because Mrs. C does a lot of thinking and decision making with her heart.

She also f's my brains out every chance she gets.

I could wish she was more like other wives in some areas but I could not be with her if she wasn't worshipping at my bedroom "alter".


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

john117 said:


> I beg to differ.
> 
> I have three college degrees in the social sciences, have a solid understanding of statistics and research methods, and above all, I can, and have, digest hundreds or thousands of posts down to useful information.
> 
> ...



This thread and my posts in it are not science nor were they derived by any form of scientific method or process. It was just stuff I have read and extrapolated from my perspective and in my words from a montage of various posts I have read over the years.

It nothing more and nothing less than one man's opinion. 


Disagree all you want. It is what it is whether you agree or not.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

In regards to men that have stayed or stayed too long anyway, I can't really imagine the madness you are experiencing.

I would probably snap and start killing things.

I would definitely not be in my right mind or have a healthy outlook if I had been denied for years.

I sincerely hope you get healthy gentleman. Meaning, GET LAID!!!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> In regards to men that have stayed or stayed too long anyway, I can't really imagine the madness you are experiencing.
> 
> I would probably snap and start killing things.
> 
> ...


Mind over matter, Conan. The hardest thing to overcome was not losing my partner of 36 years, but shaking my own confidence as to what I could or not do, vis a vis turn it around.

Just like an NFL Superbowl where the Lombardi trophy hangs on the outcome of one throw, to us it came down to her realizing what we were going to miss down the road by not compromising on one or two decisions, and not caring. 

Dumping a partner because they don't put out is easy. But the introspection needed to see how this will impact one's life down the road is a lot more complicated. 

I'm glad we're done, I'm happy for her, but it still bothers me that it had to end that way. At the end of the day we didn't get what we wanted. At least I lived to hear her say to dd2 that she should have gone to therapy a decade ago, just like I suggested a decade ago. 

I hear she's planning on a high-rise condo next year once we sell the house. Not me. But, understanding why it came to this makes me feel better. Some things you can fix, some you can't.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> In regards to men that have stayed or stayed too long anyway, I can't really imagine the madness you are experiencing.
> 
> I would probably snap and start killing things.
> 
> ...


Some of the guys have not been denied for years. They do have a sex life it is just not very fulfilling. These guys love their wives regardless and have chosen their path (notwithstanding that they could still choose differently at some point in the future).

It doesn’t work for us to try to put ourselves in their shoes because we can’t feel the love they have for their spouse, so when we try to imagine it we are imagining a phantom person and our lack of feelings for that phantom.

We can say, like you have, well if she stopped meeting my needs I would eventually walk. But that still has nothing to do with others and their wives. We aren’t them and we don’t know them and we can’t react for them.

Given the amount of pressure these guys get from others saying “do this, don’t do that, why haven’t you left, get your balls out of her purse” and similar, I really admire them. They stand up to these messages and state their case over and over again with dignity because they know themselves, their wives, and their stories and they are secure in their decisions (again, even though they may choose differently later).

For some people, not having a fulfilling sex life may be the suckiest part of their lives and they may struggle with that greatly, but they know what their choices are and choose it anyway. Usually, as with Uhtred, Cletus and Rocky, these are guys who are healthy, balanced, financially secure, and have hobbies and other companionship. Their lives are filled up with enough other good things that they have chosen to stay.

We can’t walk in their shoes. Offering what we would do or how we would feel may be interesting for others to read and educational for all, but it doesn’t help individuals and is sometimes insulting to them.

I’m not really talking about you as much as some of the other guys around here. I think for the most part, guys enjoy your authenticity and don’t feel you are insulting them.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FW,

I think that’s on the money. Creating passion - long term - in a highly stable - low conflict marriage - is not the norm. 

As raw physical drivers diminish - stylistic differences magnify. For me - nothing better than scheduled sex. I look forward to it - gradually get more and more cranked up and then it is super fun. 

M2 isn’t a fan of that at all. She wants an in the moment - just go for it - experience. 







Faithful Wife said:


> Some of the guys have not been denied for years. They do have a sex life it is just not very fulfilling. These guys love their wives regardless and have chosen their path (notwithstanding that they could still choose differently at some point in the future).
> 
> It doesn’t work for us to try to put ourselves in their shoes because we can’t feel the love they have for their spouse, so when we try to imagine it we are imagining a phantom person and our lack of feelings for that phantom.
> 
> ...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

I think low libido is a real physical issue that can be addressed by an up-to-date gyno. I posted on the other thread about this just now. 

Men who expect a low libido woman is being punishing are in a large number of cases way off the mark. MOST WOMEN are not evil, gold-digging *****es. Yes, some are - but most women are not. 

I have experience both low libido and high libido during the course of finding a good balance. I can't say this enough: Women are truly at the mercy of their hormonal balance. To make things even more complex, when you have low libido, you don't realize it or think anything is wrong. It's a mind/body trap - not an evil punishment towards a man. Low libido is crushing on the mental health of women who possess it. It's not just low libido, it's also the white noise depression that accompanies it. 

Compare it to low T in men who experience the same symptoms. 

Couples who take a team approach to understanding each other in this regard and push for solutions with a cutting edge gyno are going to find a greater success. Is it hard to do? YES, it IS. It's a lot of experimentation, frustration and asking a lot of questions to get to a good balance. Then, it's tweaking that balance every six months to stay on top of the solutions. 

I have done this, personally. My husband and I have been around the block a hundred times solving this puzzle. It's been hard on both of us at times. I truly hate that I don't have the ease of sex activity that he has. I'm envious of it and as baffled by it as he is. 

I just saw my gyno yesterday for a yearly and she addressed all my concerns and discussion. She explained how everything works and why I need to do this or that to keep sexually active. It was interesting to me that one of the most important questions her nurse had was: "Are you sexually active?"

Not "do you exercise regularly?" or "do you eat a healthy diet?" (yes, and yes)

So, getting a relationship with a gyno is a way for a woman to shoe-horn her way out the complacency that her body has so craftily locked her down into.

Okay - so that is PART ONE. 

The second part is hang ups and experiences and influences that BOTH husbands and wives bring into the relationship. 

I would love the next step for my husband and I to have a few sessions with a sex therapist. It's just baffling for my husband how a female orgasm works so differently from a male orgasm. 

I mean, you can see a guy having an orgasm but a woman has very little evidence comparatively. Plus you can readily see a guy's sex organs and a woman's genitalia is so much smaller and complex looking. So much of what excites her stems from what she is thinking - I'm just saying men and women are so different and even among men and among women, individuals are different. 

I'm sad when I see the logic broken down into black and white. Either you wanna have sex or you don't. And if you don't, you are being hateful and rude to me or don't love me. 

It's really not that simple for women who do truly love their spouses but are struggling with having sex in the same quantities as their husbands want.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I asked s-wife to do a hormone panel several times in years past. Insurance said - good insurance too - they will do it if there is cause (libido not in their list). Second time a different insurance company said they only do it as part of HRT. 

S-wife was / is in supreme physical shape at 59, and balked at even the mention of the word HRT. No health issues. It's just that in her country of origin, sex and affection and all that more or less stop at 50, and in her messed up family, even earlier.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Lots of variables!

Debt
Kids
Fear
Love



No one size fits all answer.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> I asked s-wife to do a hormone panel several times in years past. Insurance said - good insurance too - they will do it if there is cause (libido not in their list). Second time a different insurance company said they only do it as part of HRT.
> 
> S-wife was / is in supreme physical shape at 59, and balked at even the mention of the word HRT. No health issues. It's just that in her country of origin, sex and affection and all that more or less stop at 50, and in her messed up family, even earlier.


Are you in the U.S.?

HRT is a good enough reason, so, fine to pursue that route. Really p.o.'s me that a woman's libido isn't consider a medical issue - doesn't it YOU? Grrrr. Just for grins, let's check and see if a man's libido is a medically necessary issue, right?

Cultural issues surrounding sex and a woman's age are high hurdles. I'm sorry. I agree, it's messed up thinking. I'm not attacking her culture but I am frustrated hearing how woman perceive themselves and are perceived throughout world cultures. 

To me, I would like to see women more empowered everywhere. The results of women empowerment gives them rights to seek not only equal job opportunity/pay rights - but also and more importantly, the right to better and accurate information about women's health and options. 

Part of what women have fought for in equal rights - and perhaps something that isn't talked about much - is the suppression of women's right to have and enjoy their sexuality on par with men. This suppression has contributed greatly to the ignorance of women about the joys and expression of sex.

I'm not saying "feel sorry for women" - but I am saying, please...try to understand - and be on the side of the promotion of women's rights to know and express themselves fully. It's crazy to me that men tend to think of women's rights in terms of men-bashing. 

No. It's about women getting taken seriously about what is going on with them - getting access to medical people who tell them the truth plainly and simply and accurately instead of suppressing them even further.

If you look at the history of how women have been treated by the medical profession, you'd be freakin' pissed too. Liberate women. It's for everyone's benefit.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I read what you are going through and have posted several responses but the site keeps malfunctioning and erasing them.
> 
> You and I are just as honorable about commitments but our foundations differ.
> 
> ...


I do chalk a lot of it up to my getting married while young and inexperienced, not knowing what I wanted at the time.

Interestingly, my wife often accuses me of being "too nice" to other people or in general. She is aware that she personally has been the prime beneficiary of my nice.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

We're in the theocratic republic of the rust belt, USA . 

Thing is, HRT has risks and not everyone is onboard with it. Plus, if counseling is involved, mental health is not something you expect to surface in job applications, but it does (hint: s-wife was asked to fill an application for some type of government clearance and they had no problem asking if she ever was involved in counseling)...

Having said this, I doubt hormones aren't the issue with most of the cases I've seen in Tam. It's usually Family of origin, culture, religious beliefs, and wild expectations about what it means to be married. Stress too.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> FW,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Isn’t the solution obvious here? You schedule it in your mind, don’t tell her and let her be surprised. 🤨 what am I missing?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I do chalk a lot of it up to my getting married while young and inexperienced, not knowing what I wanted at the time.
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, my wife often accuses me of being "too nice" to other people or in general. She is aware that she personally has been the prime beneficiary of my nice.



Maybe you misunderstood? If my wife accused me of being too nice, I would take it that she wants me to get nasty. With her.
I would not necessarily take it as a compliment...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Maybe you misunderstood? If my wife accused me of being too nice, I would take it that she wants me to get nasty. With her.
> I would not necessarily take it as a compliment...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, I wasn't taking it as a compliment. If anything, I was confirming that it can be problematic.

When my wife says I'm nice to others, she is not being complimentary. She does however, like it when I'm nice to her when she errs. What she really wants is for me to be nice to her, but not so much to others.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

"Think that a woman's sexual response is some random, mysterious force that only occurs when the moon is in the 7th house and jupitor lines up with Mars and then only on the 3rd Tuesday of an "R" month and when the Earth's magnetic field fluctuates in response to random solar flare activity. they don't grasp that much of a woman's arousal and response is based on their actions and behaviors"


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> No, I wasn't taking it as a compliment. If anything, I was confirming that it can be problematic.
> 
> 
> 
> When my wife says I'm nice to others, she is not being complimentary. She does however, like it when I'm nice to her when she errs. What she really wants is for me to be nice to her, but not so much to others.




Ah ok, it wasn’t clear to me because it contradicts this sentence: “She is aware that she personally has been the prime beneficiary of my nice.”

Either she is aware that she is the prime beneficiary of you being nice to her (in which case it doesn’t make sense for her to criticise you being nice to others) or she is not? Sorry if I’m being dense.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

john117 said:


> S-wife was / is in supreme physical shape at 59, and balked at even the mention of the word HRT.


My wife laughed in my face and thought I was totally crazy. But that fits with her avoidance of solutions which require a bit of effort. She is happy to swallow pills and that's it. The rest goes under the carpet.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> What was the latest twist? I hate twists.


The latest twist is that she turned off the sex tap in a very abrupt and unexpected way. She moved into the guest room when I was ill and never returned. When I questioned her, she said she was done with sex and that I could go somewhere else to have it if I wanted to... I was a bit shocked to be honest. And I still am. No idea why. I guess it's a combination of our sexual past, her ADs and menopause. I will never know.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> inmyprime said:
> 
> 
> > What was the latest twist? I hate twists.
> ...


Is she worried/ has she acknowledged that this is the end of the marriage? Or does she just know that you won't divorce her?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Is she worried/ has she acknowledged that this is the end of the marriage? Or does she just know that you won't divorce her?


I told her that it wasn't acceptable to me and that we would have to lead separate lives from now on, including sex. She agreed. She said she understands. Then she said "maybe", when she finishes her diet... then she said, actually no. She doesn't want to have sex any more. Not just with me (but she would say that, wouldn't she)... 

She has never put any effort in "rescuing" our marriage, despite her promises. I can only conclude she doesn't love me any more. She cares for me, but that's it. In hindsight, I believe this happened probably after 10 years together, but she never left because of the kids. I don't know this for sure and I'm not going to ask her. No more heartache. Her lack of communication has been astonishing all these years. I was lost. We were lost. But she always refused to see a therapist.

So, here I am. Hurt, confused, feeling rejected (again).


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> My wife laughed in my face and thought I was totally crazy. But that fits with her avoidance of solutions which require a bit of effort. She is happy to swallow pills and that's it. The rest goes under the carpet.


No, not in that sense. Just your friendly neighborhood hypochondriac.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> I told her that it wasn't acceptable to me and that we would have to lead separate lives from now on, including sex. She agreed. She said she understands


This is so sad to hear. Since you've set the boundary what are you now willing to do about it? I don't know your full history but it really does seem like your wife is fully checked out and probably the type that wants you to be the one to call it.

Are you ready to call it?

These sexless marriage threads are so heartbreaking. So many people investing years and decades with people that they just aren't matched to, trying everything they can think of to 'fix' the unfixable. I've never seen a thread/comment from people that left these marriages where they didn't wind up in a better more fulfilling situation eventually. We only get one life to live afterall...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BigDigg said:


> This is so sad to hear. Since you've set the boundary what are you now willing to do about it? I don't know your full history but it really does seem like your wife is fully checked out and probably the type that wants you to be the one to call it.
> 
> Are you ready to call it?


I wasn't ready to call it, but I had to call it. If by "calling it" you mean divorcing, then no, we haven't got to that stage but to me it's like we are divorcing. Even if she changed her mind (again), I wouldn't be able to be with a woman that coldly tells me that our sex life is finished, take it or leave it... And I don't even know the reasons exactly. We are leading separate lives and we have been leading separate lives for years, but we still had the sex connection. We were still a couple. That's gone now. Time to move on.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> BigDigg said:
> 
> 
> > This is so sad to hear. Since you've set the boundary what are you now willing to do about it? I don't know your full history but it really does seem like your wife is fully checked out and probably the type that wants you to be the one to call it.
> ...


This is the part I don't understand. You report that you are not at the point of divorce, even after this announcement and now living separate lives!

Before you discount my not understanding how you can not be initiating divorce... I AM actually someone who has been there done that. I left a 16 year marriage, with two children in elementary school, having a health problem, and after not having worked in over a decade. 

If I could do it, in order to be able to live a real, authentic life that wasn't a faux marriage, anyone can.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Just curious, Livvie, what enabled your divorce from a practical standpoint? What risks were you able to take (going back to work, moving with family, depleting savings, depending on social safety net) in search of intimacy / better life?

Not everyone has the same risk taking parameters, and not all divorce laws are the same.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

I have only read about half of this. But most of it is all the same. 

First off, in general @oldshirt [email protected] and several others are just completely right. 

And to @faithfulwife and the other fine ladies. What you don't seem to understand is that the men that you know and have been with who don't "Fit" the sexless male model completely is because they were with you. You ladies are sexual, comfortable with your sexuality, and most of you were able to use the standard male sexual response, to make them more sexual than they were in their sexless relationships. 

Or some variation thereof. But IMHO your good interactions with these guys have more to do with you than them.

But what @oldshirt about me and others that do not live sexless lives is completely true. We never settled for that type of relationship, and we never will. This is why I said in RMY's thread, I think, men like him, and men like me and @oldshirt will never understand each other. 

Let me give you one last example. While I love my GF more than any other woman I have been with, and the fact that she is really becoming even more sexual and comfortable with sexuality, and she is actually not the only women her age that I have been with that were stunning in bed. 

She may be the best because she is the best, or because we are so in love, to me it really does not matter. 

But here is the difference, she is 60 YO, POST menopausal, and yes she is a beautiful and totally sexy, but she has never been as sexual in her entire life as she is with me. Literally, every time I "Check her", she is wet and hot to trot. Every. Single. Time. 

Why is that? Because she desires me, and she desires that I make love to her, it is really that simple. Is it the love that we share? Is it that some long held sexual desire has awoken in her? I am not really sure. 

Frankly, it does not really matter to me, it is great and I hope for it to stay that way. 

But even my longest marriage (26 years) was never sexless, I wonder why that is?

I could go on and on, and it really would never matter to those guys that CHOOSE to stay in sexless relationships.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Your feedback would be a bit more relevant if you had met the specific 60 year old in 1990....

Self selection is normal. As is the human inability to understand probability. Combined, this creates a population who believes every other human is, or should be able to, fit the same mold.

Here's an example even further out in the outfield... Friend, age 50s, runs into same issue with his frigid 300 pounder wife. He gets a mistress, buys her a house a few houses down from his, puts her in, along with her 5 teenagers, pays for her to complete nursing school, and enjoys playing Brigham Young .

Wife says naught, happy to have her minivan, Huskies, and cable TV.

What percentage of American wives would go for this?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

john117 said:


> Just curious, Livvie, what enabled your divorce from a practical standpoint? What risks were you able to take (going back to work, moving with family, depleting savings, depending on social safety net) in search of intimacy / better life?
> 
> Not everyone has the same risk taking parameters, and not all divorce laws are the same.


I hadn't worked in 13 years. The court imputed yearly income of 30k to me in support calculations. I received child support, and less than 5 years of spousal support. Nothing near what would cover monthly bills. I lived very very very frugally. I **worked my ****ing ass off**, starting with **** jobs and working my way up. I moved into two ****ty rentals before I had enough work experience to buy my own small house. Mortgage where I live is less than rent. So that was three moves in 2 years.

Shared custody. 

I don't have a lot saved for retirement, but I put as much as I can in my 401(k).

I did this while having a health issue, as well.

I could not live a lie marriage. 

I could have stayed and lived a very comfortable life, plenty saved for retirement, with my kids full time.

But it would have been a lie. A LIE. Some people can do that. I couldn't.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Livvie said:


> This is the part I don't understand. You report that you are not at the point of divorce, even after this announcement and now living separate lives!


It only happened a few weeks ago. There is no future for us but I haven't decided what the future for me is. Definitely without my wife. The thing is, I don't want to move out. I worked very hard to be where I am and I don't want to throw it away. The house is big enough to ignore each other for the moment. I will analyse it, digest it and take it from there. Youngest goes to uni next year. So, that will be the turning point.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> Literally, every time I "Check her", she is wet and hot to trot. Every. Single. Time.
> 
> 
> 
> Why is that?


Could be a leak somewhere. Did you call in the plumber to check with proper tools?



BluesPower said:


> Because she desires me, and she desires that I make love to her, it is really that simple. Is it the love that we share? Is it that some long held sexual desire has awoken in her? I am not really sure.


New relationship hormones. It will subside eventually after about 6-12 months, and if you don’t start getting on each others nerves by then, she may or may not find it offensive that you ‘keep checking her’. 

Ha, the optimist in me. I’m just messing with you. Enjoy the good times.





BluesPower said:


> But even my longest marriage (26 years) was never sexless, I wonder why that is?



Didn’t you say it’s because she turned out to be crazy?



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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> It only happened a few weeks ago. There is no future for us but I haven't decided what the future for me is. Definitely without my wife. The thing is, I don't want to move out. I worked very hard to be where I am and I don't want to throw it away. The house is big enough to ignore each other for the moment. I will analyse it, digest it and take it from there. Youngest goes to uni next year. So, that will be the turning point.


Glad you are putting this sham behind you.

Self improvement my friend. Make it your religion and start enjoying life.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Glad you are putting this sham behind you.
> 
> Self improvement my friend. Make it your religion and start enjoying life.


Thank you. Well, new life at 55... not something I ever expected... but there you go... :smile2:


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> And to @faithfulwife and the other fine ladies. What you don't seem to understand is that the men that you know and have been with who don't "Fit" the sexless male model completely is because they were with you. You ladies are sexual, comfortable with your sexuality, and most of you were able to use the standard male sexual response, to make them more sexual than they were in their sexless relationships.
> 
> Or some variation thereof. But IMHO your good interactions with these guys have more to do with you than them.


Yes to this ^^^^^^

As Faithfulwife describes herself as a very sexual women, it stands to reason that the men she was with were in fact having sex. 

And I'm taking a leap here, but I would also venture a guess that if these men were not giving her the love and attention she required, I imagine they were ultimately let go. 

Thus further proving some of my points.

I think that FW and some others took offense in my posts because they were thinking that I was somehow either covertly or overtly saying that certain men are inept and weak and unsexy and not worthy of love and desire etc etc while others are cool and studly and save lost puppies and such. 

That certainly was not my intent. My point is that in reading many many posts over the years, I have noted certain traits and behaviors from each side of the aisle. I was pointing out the differences I had noted from my perspective. I was not assigning value or judgement to either.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

john117 said:


> Your feedback would be a bit more relevant if you had met the specific 60 year old in 1990....
> 
> Self selection is normal. As is the human inability to understand probability. Combined, this creates a population who believes every other human is, or should be able to, fit the same mold.
> 
> ...


Excellent point. Yet the more I study human behavior and cast a critical eye at my own admittedly little world... I notice patterns of behavior. People are just so damn predictable. This was the basis for the genesis of pickup artists. A bunch of socially awkward nerds sat around and watched what guys who got laid did in their interactions with women. They did those same things. They got laid. They compared notes and made adjustments. They got laid more. 

Of course, most of them are totally creepy sleaze bags who are not naturally charming just pretending to be... but they were also hated because they shined a light on a very uncomfortable fact: You're just not as special as you think you are. You're an animal. You're predictable. You're easily manipulated.

Get a bunch of guys together who had their wives cheat on them. They can complete each other's sentences. All the stories have the same basic elements. I'm sure the same is for most women who had cheating husbands. I'm sure the same is more men and women "stuck" in dead bedroom situations. 

Lastly, about your story of the kept woman who is okay with her more attractive husband sleeping around and sharing his resources with other women... Yes, I have heard that. Several times. I had a teacher in high school who had that arrangement. In some cultures, it is expected.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> That certainly was not my intent. My point is that in reading many many posts over the years, I have noted certain traits and behaviors from each side of the aisle.



Those are not ‘common traits’. This is just what complaint sounds like.

Also it is not always true that the HD partner is the one that breaks things off. LD partner is just as likely to become fed up or fall out of love or whatever and end things.



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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Right, it's expected in some cultures. S-wife's grandfather had two wife's in two different cities. Made for awkward family gatherings 

But, in ultraconservative America of today, it ain't very common to do what my friend did. There's background that makes even the most horrifying Tam tale look like the Kardashians and I know it's all true. I worked with him for decades. 

But while it's possible, it isn't remotely common. People simply suck at understanding probability, and as such, paint themselves into much different pictures than actual reality.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> And to @faithfulwife and the other fine ladies. What you don't seem to understand is that the men that you know and have been with who don't "Fit" the sexless male model completely is because they were with you. You ladies are sexual, comfortable with your sexuality, and most of you were able to use the standard male sexual response, to make them more sexual than they were in their sexless relationships.


What the hell are you talking about? Did you even read what I wrote? You seem to think I have no experience to draw from of my own and need a lesson from you.

Maybe try to understand what I actually know and read closer what I’ve actually written before you try to school me.

What you “don’t seem to understand” is that your life is not the model that describes all the models for everyone else. Being a jerk to those guys and puffing your chest out saying “be more like me” is simply ignorant and arrogant.

The guys here who are choosing to stay have their reasons and you are not in their shoes.

You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the men I’ve been with, their histories, their relationships with me or previous partners, to make such a ridiculous statement as the last sentence in the quote above.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Could be a leak somewhere. Did you call in the plumber to check with proper tools?
> 
> New relationship hormones. It will subside eventually after about 6-12 months, and if you don’t start getting on each others nerves by then, she may or may not find it offensive that you ‘keep checking her’.
> 
> ...


You know, this is really well below your own inane standards. 

One day when I have time I will PM you as to why the marriage ended, but the point is it was never sexless, quite the opposite. 

BTW, I am a really good plumber among other things and I have great equipment. 

The other point is the same with this thread, all of the sexless guys seem to want to get advice from the other sexless guys. 

What would make more sense is to listen to the NON-Sexless guys.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

What would make more sense is to listen to such stories from people who have faced the same challenge and determine common elements, things tried that worked or not, professional intervention options, DIY options, and so on.

That's generally how support groups work. It's a bunch of people that have the same common issue, whether a Saab or a frigid partner, discussing approaches in reading the direct ignition cassette failure code or deciphering the frigid spouse's antics or their own behaviors.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> What the hell are you talking about? Did you even read what I wrote? You seem to think I have no experience to draw from of my own and need a lesson from you.
> 
> Maybe try to understand what I actually know and read closer what I’ve actually written before you try to school me.
> 
> ...


You see all their reasons for staying, and I see all their reasons for leaving. 

Women in general, always want to bring home the lost puppies. These men and woman that stay in sexless marriages are weak. 

And my posts, or @oldshirt are not harsh, or rude. We simply tell our version of the truth. 

You may think that a man that stays with a woman that detests the thought of sex with him, is somehow honorable, and strong, and upright. 

I say that it is none of those things. If a woman want to be with me, in a real relationship, has to love me. And she has to have desire for me. And she has to want to bank my brains out. 

If I am a bad person for that, then so be it. 

People treat you the way that you allow them to treat you. So if you allow a woman to treat you as a eunuch, the you are by default a eunuch.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> I say that it is none of those things. If a woman want to be with me, in a real relationship, has to love me. And she has to have desire for me. And she has to want to bank my brains out.
> 
> If I am a bad person for that, then so be it.


Once again, all you are really doing is thumping your own chest and saying “be more like me and she will want you”.

It doesn’t make you a bad person, it just shows you are ignorant and arrogant.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> You see all their reasons for staying, and I see all their reasons for leaving.
> 
> Women in general, always want to bring home the lost puppies. These men and woman that stay in sexless marriages are weak.
> 
> ...


I have understood and accepted your idea that if you stay in a relationship where sex falls short of what you really want, that you are getting what you deserve. 

Fair enough.

But weak? You have no idea how much strength it takes to try to keep a relationship going under such circumstances. I'm no more "lost puppy" than you. I could just as easily say it's "weak" to bail any time things don't go your way. But I don't. I simply acknowledge that we have different thresholds for different elements of what we seek and will accept.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> You know, this is really well below your own inane standards.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey sorry if my humour offended you! I don’t know if you noticed but I was actually sincerely happy for you that you found someone to be happy with and was just breaking your balls (‘cos I assumed you can take it since you are a bit of a show off).

Did I trigger something with the leak or equipment comment? I didn’t mean to and take whichever joke it was that offended you back.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> What would make more sense is to listen to such stories from people who have faced the same challenge and determine common elements, things tried that worked or not, professional intervention options, DIY options, and so on.
> 
> That's generally how support groups work. It's a bunch of people that have the same common issue, whether a Saab or a frigid partner, discussing approaches in reading the direct ignition cassette failure code or deciphering the frigid spouse's antics or their own behaviors.




Yeah but you might be in danger of recognising a false pattern that might not be there and extrapolate and come to the wrong conclusion. It’s really hard when you only get to hear one side of story. MC should be significantly more successful in paving way for the best possible outcome for both people involved (whether it’s working **** out or going their separate ways).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Is it weak to stay or is it weak to leave? It’s a difficult question. 
It depends.
Both can be true and both can be false. Depends on your perspective really. 

If you stay for decades because somebody is ****ing you but everything else sucks; why is that a sign of strength? It could be. But it doesn’t have to be.

If you stay in a sexless marriage and are trying everything to fix it, including going to MC (hint to the guys who still haven’t arranged for an appointment...ahem), then why is it weak? But it could be perceived as weak if the obvious path was to leave.

The problem is nothing is obvious. Except with hindsight.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

There are definitely weak people that stay in an undesirable relationship as well as weak people who leave.

I don't think internal strength is a factor.

I'm not actually bothered by, or think less of, men who are staying while understanding what they are choosing to not have as opposed to whining about it.

It would be interesting if we could hammer out some enlightenment about this without attack or defense.

It is a hot button topic however, which makes it damn hard to discuss.

I appreciate olderthandirt's attempts at opening dialog if nothing else.

Just some tongue in cheek @oldshirt


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Yeah but you might be in danger of recognising a false pattern that might not be there and extrapolate and come to the wrong conclusion. It’s really hard when you only get to hear one side of story. MC should be significantly more successful in paving way for the best possible outcome for both people involved (whether it’s working **** out or going their separate ways).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


MC or any other actions come after the individual has read a few hundred posts, has found a few cases that have some common elements, and has had an opportunity to read what worked and what did not.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

One also assumes that a non putting out spouse will embrace MC at the drop of a hat. That's not always the case, and going to MC is as much of a challenge as hanging from the ceiling sex...

Or, that one doesn't shop MC's to find one they agree with, or once in MC, they don't do the exercises or readings, and so on.

Thumping ones chest is a lot easier.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Once again, all you are really doing is thumping your own chest and saying “be more like me and she will want you”.
> 
> It doesn’t make you a bad person, it just shows you are ignorant and arrogant.


No that is not what he is saying. Neither have I said that.

What blues is saying (or at least my interpretation of it) is not saying to be like him or to try to emulate him or that he does a better job of picking up chicks.

None of us are saying that.

What he is saying is that he does not enter into or remain in relationships with women that are not sexually into him. 

He is saying that sexuality is a key, priority criteria for him to be in a relationship and if that criteria is not being met, there will be no relationship.

That is all he is saying there.

He is not saying that anyone is weak or that they are less than or that they need to do as he does and they will be a hot stud too. 

You and a few others are jumping to the conclusion that I and some others are calling them weak.

That is YOUR interpretation, not my or Blues' statements.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

We can read what he's saying and don't disagree one bit.

However, comma, he's Monday morning armchair quarterbacking. It's not like people don't recognize the issue for what it is. 

To use another analogy from my beloved automobile of times gone, it's like asking what the error code is for the DIC and how much it costs, and we have a well meaning poster telling the crowd that we should not accept or drive vehicles that are prone to DIC (that's the acronym ) failure, and instead, we should be driving DIC-less vehicles like the Camry that don't have such issues.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> MC or any other actions come after the individual has read a few hundred posts, has found a few cases that have some common elements, and has had an opportunity to read what worked and what did not.



Yeah I don’t know if reading TAM is all that useful...You just get told off and into a fight with feminists. Well I do anyway 
What did people do before forums?? 🤨


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Also it is not always true that the HD partner is the one that breaks things off. LD partner is just as likely to become fed up or fall out of love or whatever and end things.


This is very true and I did try to address it a little bit in my OP but I'll address it a little more now.

The LD partner frequently dumps the HD partner but it is often different context and different verbiage is usually used.

If the less attracted person puts on the breaks they often use terms like, " I don't feel for you "in-that-way"", or they say, "let's Just Be Friends" (LJBF).

I myself have been on the recieving end of that a number of times. 

I was offered the LJBF by my first real GF and first love. I was devastated and heartbroken. She offered we could be "friends" and could hang out and I could do errands and chores for her and continue to help her dad on the farm and we could go out and do things together; but there would be no sex and she would date and have sex with other guys and that I could be there to cheer her up if they broke her heart.

(These weren't her exact words of course, but it was the clear message)

I could not accept those terms and took the dumping and later down the road I had another GF that was laying me like tile.


My best friend had that happen too.
A girl that he had dated and hooked up with a few times decided he wasn't tripping her trigger and gave him the LBJF.

He begged and pleaded and negotiated an ended up accepting her LJBF offer.

Eventually he negotiated her into marrying him.

Over 10 years and 2 kids later, they had only had sex a handful of times (to conceive the kids that she wanted) and she had lived in another bedroom in the house and had literally not spoken to him or saw him in person for over 2-3 years when he finally had enough and filed.

Compare and contrast that.

I accepted the dumping by the LD GF (or at least she was LD with me) and moved on to find other people that dug me.

My friend did not accept the dumping and signed on for a long-term LJBF and accepted a long term roommate arrangment despite desperately wanting a sex life with her.

My various actions and various other inactions lead me to living a very sexual existence during the same period of time that my best friend was living a sexless life.

Conversely his actions and inactions lead him to live a sexless with a woman that to this day can't stand him.

That is all fact and reality.

I am not judging him or saying he is weak or inept with women, nor am I saying I am cooler or studlier or better with women.

He has a full head of hair, has less gut, makes a ton more money and is probably a much more nicer and more accommidating person than me. 

IMHO what separates his situation from mine is he accepted a LJBF offer and accepted over 10 years of being roommates and coparents where as I did not. 

That is why I listed accepting being dumped by LD partners as a one of the actions that sexuality active men often do and accepting LJBF scenarios as on of the actions that sexually challenged men do.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> No that is not what he is saying. Neither have I said that.
> 
> What blues is saying (or at least my interpretation of it) is not saying to be like him or to try to emulate him or that he does a better job of picking up chicks.
> 
> ...


Spoken like a true chest thumping apologist. 

Hmmm....



BluesPower said:


> You see all their reasons for staying, and I see all their reasons for leaving.
> 
> Women in general, always want to bring home the lost puppies. *These men and woman that stay in sexless marriages are weak. *
> 
> ...



Straight up statement that men in sexless marriages are weak. Not taken out of context. Not distorted or misquoted in any way. 

*"These men and woman that stay in sexless marriages are weak. "*
There's no backpedaling from that one. No matter how you try to justify your "I'm a stud and you're not" position.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> This is very true and I did try to address it a little bit in my OP but I'll address it a little more now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




But you and Blues focus on the extreme cases. 
What about cases in between? (Which is the majority).

So you have a pretty good sex life before marriage, then get married, have kids, sex kind of goes down a bit from the new, euphoric levels. It doesn’t disappear but after 5-10 years of being married, few kids and many sleepless nights, your wife is up for maybe a once a week or every two week session. You want it 5 times a week instead and you also want it to be more adventurous/exciting etc. 
This is where the majority of couples end up I would guess (this is where I ended up, for a brief period). The marriage is not sexless but it’s not sexful either.

What’s your advice there? Find a nympho instead? Leave the kids? Be strong? Be weak? Make tea?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

"That is why I listed accepting being dumped by LD partners as a one of the actions that sexuality active men often do and accepting LJBF scenarios as on of the actions that sexually challenged men do."

I guess that you haven't encountered someone who is such a match with you that you are willing to live the rest of your life without physical intimacy. 

I did, nearly 40 years ago. Victim of CSA (and I had her social services story a to z) but a stunning intellectual that challenged every cell in my brain. As did I. 

It would not be a stretch to say I am where I am because of her. And vice versa. She never dated since and moved to the UK where she's teaching at a pretty well known uni (clinical psychology). We keep in touch still.

Such individuals help remind us of a higher purpose than insert peg A into slot B.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> One also assumes that a non putting out spouse will embrace MC at the drop of a hat. That's not always the case, and going to MC is as much of a challenge as hanging from the ceiling sex...
> 
> Or, that one doesn't shop MC's to find one they agree with, or once in MC, they don't do the exercises or readings, and so on.
> 
> Thumping ones chest is a lot easier.




Yes I was going to address that. It definitely takes communication and recognition of the problem in the first place to agree to see an MC together. A lot of women will probably break down crying or feel that something is wrong with them that they are asked to see an MC. But it has to be a joint effort; it affects both people and it takes two people to try and fix it.
And actually because it’s mainly emasculating for men to verbally bring up that the lack of sex or lack of good sex is in fact problem, they often can’t get themselves to bring it up with their spouse in the first pleas. Nor should women feel like they are being coerced or forced to go and see the MC. It’s tricky but it’s a mandatory conversation you NEED to have with your spouse.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> "That is why I listed accepting being dumped by LD partners as a one of the actions that sexuality active men often do and accepting LJBF scenarios as on of the actions that sexually challenged men do."
> 
> I guess that you haven't encountered someone who is such a match with you that you are willing to live the rest of your life without physical intimacy.
> 
> ...




Yes and that is the reason why it is much easier for some people to leave and for others, not to leave. 
If sex is all (or most) that is holding a couple together, then if it is not satisfactory anymore, there’s nothing really left to keep you together and of course it will be easier to leave once the main part disintegrates. But for couples with other (I hesitate to say deeper) connections, it is a much more difficult choice.

And you really can’t take all of these things into account when you take a piece of paper and divide half of all humans into just two groups...


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

inmyprime;19665107What did people do before forums?? 🤨
[/QUOTE said:


> They lived in ignorance of what could be, and perhaps believed that their situation was normal, no matter how ****ed up. Bad marriage jokes abound, so bad marriages must be normal! Is there another choice? It was hard to know, back then. Eventually, things may get so bad that you leave, despite the stigma back then.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> You know, this is really well below your own inane standards.
> 
> One day when I have time I will PM you as to why the marriage ended, but the point is it was never sexless, quite the opposite.
> 
> ...


It still ended. So the reason is not really relevant. Sex was good but it seems the rest wasn't. Still a failure, just for a different reason. 

The thing is, you have once again made a false assumption, not rooted in anything those you are so quick to disparage has actually said. 

None of the "sexless" guys are seeking advice from other sexless guys. Ideally, it would be nice to find someone who has turned it around or made it work, rather than self aggrandizing egos which simply nail when things get tough. In that regard, you are no more useful than anyone else.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It still ended. So the reason is not really relevant. Sex was good but it seems the rest wasn't. Still a failure, just for a different reason.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I, no, WE made it work but it did take both of us to make the effort. Me: to take responsibility for some things on my side (plus also understanding & figuring out better what makes her tick, sexually) and her: to recognise that this is an important issue AND become more comfortable with her body and just....let me more. I couldn’t have done anything without her and vice versa. 

Also: I just really don’t think she wants this to end and will also try anything (like me) to make things work.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> I, no, WE made it work but it did take both of us to make the effort. Me: to take responsibility for some things on my side (plus also understanding & figuring out better what makes her tick, sexually) and her: to recognise that this is an important issue AND become more comfortable with her body and just....let me more. I couldn’t have done anything without her and vice versa.
> 
> Also: I just really don’t think she wants this to end and will also try anything (like me) to make things work.
> 
> ...


Thank you.

Oh, and to follow up on your earlier "ahem," our first MC is scheduled in 3 days.

Things have been pretty awesome lately, and it kind of seems unnecessary at this point, but I know how easy it is to backslide, so we're going to follow through anyway.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Getting the other side to go to MC is a fair chunk of the battle. Unfortunately MC may simply conclude that the horse has flown the coop or something like that.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Spoken like a true chest thumping apologist.
> 
> Hmmm....
> 
> ...


I think men who whine about it and stay are weak.

I'm not calling anyone in particular out here but there have been examples of this attitude several times.

I hope that is what he was thinking when he posted.

I read your story and it didn't come off whiny, just kind of sad and disappointed.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

john117 said:


> Getting the other side to go to MC is a fair chunk of the battle. Unfortunately MC may simply conclude that the horse has flown the coop or something like that.


Finding the true state of affairs is always good thing, even if the answer isn't what you're looking for.

That said, I'm confident we will rock the house. The core bonds are _very_ strong.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I think men who whine about it and stay are weak.
> 
> I'm not calling anyone in particular out here but there have been examples of this attitude several times.
> 
> ...


I can agree that just whining without taking action is weak. And any of us who post a complaint of any kind may come off as sounding whiny whether we are or not. Many of us have, however, not been lacking in action, even if not always successful.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> It would be interesting if we could hammer out some enlightenment about this without attack or defense.
> 
> It is a hot button topic however, which makes it damn hard to discuss.
> 
> @oldshirt


This thread definitely took a path that I had not intended or anticipated. 

But I have seen something very similar happen at work a few times. 

I work in the health care industry and I have occasionally seen nurses or x-ray techs or other health care workers go off on the contrast between their income and lifestyle vs the income and lifestyles of physicians with their mansions at the country club and their sportscars and cadillacs etc. 

A couple times a physician has chimed in and told them about taking a full load of science classes and having to maintain a strict GPA for 4 years of undergrad then studying around the clock for weeks before taking the MCATS just to get into med school. 

Then 4 years of sleepless night studying and doing internships of med school. 

Then another 4 years of 60-70+ work weeks that comes out to about 15 dollars an hour of residency.


Then getting out of residency multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt on their way to a couple years of fellowship and being pretty much 40+ years old before they are living that lifestyle. 


Then what often takes place is the nonphysicians get offended and think that the doctors are implying that they are somehow smarter than them and better than them and are more dedicated and work harder and are better people etc etc. 

The doctors often said no such thing and intendedno such thing. 

They were just pointing out the fact that the physician took different educational programs, had different lifestyles through their undergrad and med school and residency days and the actions that they took and the sacrifices they made to become doctors and realize that high income and high prestige career. 

I think the same thing is taking place here in one form or another. Noone is saying that anyone is any better or any stronger or any cooler or studlier than anyone else. 

Sex is probably like income and lifestyle in many ways. If someone is getting more, and someone is getting less, it becomes a very sensitive and personal issue and people jump to assumptions that were never intended. 

IN MY OPINION based on first-hand accounts written by people in various situations and things that I have seen and experienced in my own life and the people around me; those were some of the differences in philosophy, behavior and actions between men who have been in sexless marriages for years vs those who have not. 

The doctor went to med school. The nurse went to nursing school. No implication that one is 'better' or stronger was ever intended by me. 

If someone is inferring that I was saying that one group is better man than the other; that is their own judgement.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The above post wins the Rationalization Hamster of the year award...









Btw I have a daughter in medical school and such posturing about the magical attributes of physicians is part of the curriculum


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

john117 said:


> I guess that you haven't encountered someone who is such a match with you that you are willing to live the rest of your life without physical intimacy.
> .


No.


Ain't gonna happen either. 

Like Blues has stated clearly from his perspective - someone who is not into me romantically/sexually/physically will never be a match for me. 

It is the sexuality that would make my special someone "special." It is what would spell the difference between a GF/wife vs a friend or some other female relative. 

I love my Aunt Tillie and think she is a wonderful person, but I would not touch her with a ten-foot pole and would not marry her or live with her as a spouse for which I would forsake all others. 

In order for me to be in a marriage or serious, exclusive relationship with someone, they have to be riding me like stolen horse.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I will say that I get laid.

I always have and probably always will. I get more than bland or vanilla type sex and probably always will.

I devote a lot of time and energy into it and probably always will.

I'm also bad with money. I always have been and probably always will be.

I make a lot but spend it.

We are our own creations in some forms through what we choose to be.

Some of these guys with less than fulfilling or even healthy sex lives have great characteristics built up over the course of a lifetime that are valuable and it might be hard to become a knuckle dragging barbarian later in life.

Some guys and gals are definitely sad doormats but not all.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> We're in the theocratic republic of the rust belt, USA .
> 
> Thing is, HRT has risks and not everyone is onboard with it. Plus, if counseling is involved, mental health is not something you expect to surface in job applications, but it does (hint: s-wife was asked to fill an application for some type of government clearance and they had no problem asking if she ever was involved in counseling)...
> 
> Having said this, I doubt hormones aren't the issue with most of the cases I've seen in Tam. It's usually Family of origin, culture, religious beliefs, and wild expectations about what it means to be married. Stress too.


I get you on the mental health reporting. We've paid for it ourselves - but, you know, there's tons of legitimate reasons for seeking counseling and plenty of people understand that. Our issues stemmed from my husband and I working in long distance cities so, people get that. No therapist worth seeing is going to rat somebody out anyway.

My husband has clearances and has never run into any issues. We know how that process works so for heaven's sake, I would never sacrifice our right to seek counseling over any fear of losing clearance.

I am speaking to you as a woman who keeps close tabs on her health in every way - and have also shared with you what my Gyno JUST SAID. Women don't seek solutions out of fear and distrust. Not at least asking and examining solutions - I just don't know what else to say. It's succumbing to a problem when it's not necessary to succumb to the problem.

I don't know what to say about your statement about family of origin, culture, etc. "I doubt hormones aren't the issue with most of the cases I've seen on TAM." What I am saying to you about hormones very much IS an issue and that isn't just my opinion. It's also the opinion of the two doctors I see regularly. Men will forever not understand this and I can understand why. If it was possible for men to spend even just three months in a female body, they would all come out and go "GD!!! I NEVER KNEW!!!" It's a roller coaster of hormones up and down - getting these in line and steady IS POSSIBLE. I'm talking to you right now and telling you that it is. 

I hope more people choose to listen to me and to the doctors. Help is there. You just have to open the door to it. If people choose to not even consider solutions then, to me, they are choosing to stay in the problem - and this really does break my heart. I love it when people can experience life to its fullest and where I can influence people to seek solutions, I do try in hopes they can find happiness.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> There are two types of people in the world:
> Those who divide the world into two types and those who don't :wink2:


I like this list of the two types of people in the world:

1. Those who can extrapolate from insufficient information.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> I get you on the mental health reporting. We've paid for it ourselves - but, you know, there's tons of legitimate reasons for seeking counseling and plenty of people understand that. Our issues stemmed from my husband and I working in long distance cities so, people get that. No therapist worth seeing is going to rat somebody out anyway.
> 
> My husband has clearances and has never run into any issues. We know how that process works so for heaven's sake, I would never sacrifice our right to seek counseling over any fear of losing clearance.
> 
> ...


That also works both ways. A woman can know what it's like to be in a mans body; my wife learned this while being prescribed testosterone. She had exactly that same reaction. She said to me "OMG, now I know what it's like to be you! Every woman should have to try this just so they know what their husbands are going through."


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

"I don't know what to say about your statement about family of origin, culture, etc. "I doubt hormones aren't the issue with most of the cases I've seen on TAM." "

Since I'm not sure what I wrote (Tam and playing with the cat at the same time taxes my ability) I think most cases I see in Tam aren't hormone related.

Just a personal opinion. I'm not a physician, but I know clusters when I see them. Mental health probably the main culprit, from depression to anxiety to every disorder you can name. Or the ever popular family of origin skeletons in the closet. Or cultural artifacts in one's head. 

I always suggest a physical and mental health work up to ensure something isn't missed. But when you read of spouses that have an active aversion to intimacy, a Walgreen's worth of hormones isn't the issue. 

I mean, I'm 58, take a couple meds that should tank my t-levels yet no issues. Including one that specifically reduces t-levels . Mind over matter.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Rarely do I keep up with every post of a long thread. However I have kept up with the current "sexless marriage" thread that I started awhile back.
> 
> Currently in that thread there is a group of guys that have been in sexless marriages for years and a group of guys that have active sex lives even after many years of marriage.
> 
> ...


I have some of those qualities, mostly those having to do with confidence and assertiveness and keeping in shape. I also consider sex an important part of life and would not accept a sexless marriage. Of course medical reasons for abstinence are valid although not terribly enjoyable.

For reference, I'm almost 70 and my wife is the same age. We've been married for 20 years although we met through a series of events that would have been a bad bet for marital longevity.


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## Randy Lafever (Jul 8, 2018)

Should my wife divorce me? We have sex about every three months, as she feels the need, but if she told me today we would never have sex again I wouldn't be the least bit disappointed or miss it. If she tried to increase our current sex-load, to, say, monthly, I would push back on that, I'm down for compromise and all, but a three hundred percent increase is unreasonable.

Reading this and other similar threads, I have found it helpful to replace all references to sex with references to cooking. Would I accept it if my wife announced I was to fend for myself every meal for the rest of my life? I do need to eat. Some men feel like they need to have sex.

I doubt I would divorce my wife in that situation simply because the odds that I will leap out of the nest and land in another nest on the next branch down are very low. If you're having sex four times a year and decide to get a divorce, you are suddenly having sex zero times a year. It just doesn't make a whole lot of logical sense.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That also works both ways. A woman can know what it's like to be in a mans body; my wife learned this while being prescribed testosterone. She had exactly that same reaction. She said to me "OMG, now I know what it's like to be you! Every woman should have to try this just so they know what their husbands are going through."


And then she did ..................... nothing.

Sorry, sorry, sorry, but that one always really gets me.

But, MC on the horizon and things have been exemplary lately? Excellent!

I'm pretty sure you've succeeded in getting her attention and I believe this will a rare story with a happy ending.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> "I don't know what to say about your statement about family of origin, culture, etc. "I doubt hormones aren't the issue with most of the cases I've seen on TAM." "
> 
> Since I'm not sure what I wrote (Tam and playing with the cat at the same time taxes my ability) I think most cases I see in Tam aren't hormone related.
> 
> ...


Women are quite familiar with doctors pointing to "mental health" being a culprit issues - that's because most doctors in the past have been men uninterested or incapable of understanding women's issues. This is historically recorded and is the bane of women who face the fluctuating hormone issues. 

My gyno (female in her 40s) is in agreement (we discussed it on Friday) with the history of women being diagnosed with anxiety or depression instead of the TRUE culprit of fluctuating hormones, which are the root cause. Treating a woman with solvable hormonal issues by giving her anti-depressants or anxiety meds is the run-of-the-mill dismissiveness with women have been treated for - ever.

My meds don't come from Walgreen's. My meds are custom compounded based on my own specific blood tests that monitor my wellness levels of hormones. 
They work. In addition, I also do four sessions of 1 hour on the elliptical plus weight training at the gym and eat a healthy whole foods diet of home cooked foods, no sugary drinks, cakes, cookies, etc. I drink zero alcohol - water is my beverage. I feel terrific and do not feel deprived in any way. My sex life is excellent - and my husband is healthy and happy also. We are 60+.

Comparing your body to your wife's body is where you are in error. Women and men have completely different makeups, physically. A man who expects his wife's physicality to match his is where the error lies. This is completely not the case. 

I have offered my experience with the advice from modern medical thinking and my own personal experience with solving my own woman-wellness issues and, perhaps, it will pique an interest with at least one other who will take seriously what I have offered here.

The vast majority of women are not people intentionally depriving men of sex. But, historically, they have been dismally educated in their bodies and their health options.

Bio-identical hormone replacement is very mainstream and available now. Women who are curious will need to be proactive with finding doctors who offer these options. It's life-changing, life-giving and REAL. I'm truly troubled by the perpetuation of the myth that women are just depressed and anxious. That is very old-school thinking that has been damaging to women for far too long. It's time to take their health back.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That also works both ways. A woman can know what it's like to be in a mans body; my wife learned this while being prescribed testosterone. She had exactly that same reaction. She said to me "OMG, now I know what it's like to be you! Every woman should have to try this just so they know what their husbands are going through."


What happened there? This story you've told a couple of times and I'm puzzled by what happened to zero her out again. Did she completely stop the bio-identical or did they bottom out her Testosterone? Did she continue the hormones or just quit?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> But you and Blues focus on the extreme cases.
> What about cases in between? (Which is the majority).
> 
> So you have a pretty good sex life before marriage, then get married, have kids, sex kind of goes down a bit from the new, euphoric levels. It doesn’t disappear but after 5-10 years of being married, few kids and many sleepless nights, your wife is up for maybe a once a week or every two week session. You want it 5 times a week instead and you also want it to be more adventurous/exciting etc.
> ...


This is me... :smile2:


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> What happened there? This story you've told a couple of times and I'm puzzled by what happened to zero her out again. Did she completely stop the bio-identical or did they bottom out her Testosterone? Did she continue the hormones or just quit?


As I understand it, her doc decided that particular hormone cocktail wasnt for her. 

I guess when the feeling faded to a memory, she lost the sense of urgency that went with it. That and the now strictly intellectual knowledge of that feeling doesn't override her existing, present feeling, now complicated by the genuine physical complications of menopause.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Getting the other side to go to MC is a fair chunk of the battle. Unfortunately MC may simply conclude that the horse has flown the coop or something like that.



Very possible, if you wait too long. But that conclusion could also be an important realisation otherwise not obtained.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> This thread definitely took a path that I had not intended or anticipated.
> 
> But I have seen something very similar happen at work a few times.
> 
> ...



Interesting analogy but now imagine that both nurses and doctors went to the same schools and in many cases nurses studied harder and many more hours but ended up with a garden shed instead of a mansion. 
If that is the case (and it’s up to you to prove why it isn’t and why you are not confusing cause and effect here) wouldn’t it make your presumption that because one party doesn’t have a big house and the other has, even more patronising and prejudiced?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> I get you on the mental health reporting. We've paid for it ourselves - but, you know, there's tons of legitimate reasons for seeking counseling and plenty of people understand that. Our issues stemmed from my husband and I working in long distance cities so, people get that. No therapist worth seeing is going to rat somebody out anyway.
> 
> My husband has clearances and has never run into any issues. We know how that process works so for heaven's sake, I would never sacrifice our right to seek counseling over any fear of losing clearance.
> 
> ...


I most definitely believe hormones are very much at play too. In a way, hormones are responsible for falling in love and out of love. There have been many cases of women 'madly in love' and then not anymore, after getting onto the pill.

If you ever find out that magic elixir that I can pour into a drink to a woman who will then want to **** me uncontrollably but without growing hairy balls and a penis somehow, please let me know!!


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I most definitely believe hormones are very much at play too. In a way, hormones are responsible for falling in love and out of love. There have been many cases of women 'madly in love' and then not anymore, after getting onto the pill.
> 
> If you ever find out that magic elixir that I can pour into a drink to a woman who will then want to **** me uncontrollably but without growing hairy balls and a penis somehow, please let me know!!


When my wife started taking anti-depressants over 15 years ago, I knew our marriage was doomed, knowing also her inability to deal with problems. I was right. Since then she has refused to see a therapist (she has OCD), she has refused to change her ADs (they work, she says), she has refused to have any type of medical check. Now she is depressed, fat (she hates it), menopausal and generally withdrawn... and she has kicked me out of the bed...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> Once again, all you are really doing is thumping your own chest and saying “be more like me and she will want you”.
> 
> It doesn’t make you a bad person, it just shows you are ignorant and arrogant.


You know, taking a small section and not the whole context is not cool. I think you are better than that. 

Take me out of it, bottom line, if you don't like being in a sexless marriage, then get out...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Straight up statement that men in sexless marriages are weak. Not taken out of context. Not distorted or misquoted in any way.
> 
> *"These men and woman that stay in sexless marriages are weak. "*
> There's no backpedaling from that one. No matter how you try to justify your "I'm a stud and you're not" position.


No, you are correct, I am saying that. @oldshirt is not but I am. I am saying that anyone that stays in a sexless marriage is weak. And that was not the main point in any of my posts about this subject. But that is how I feel.

Further, I think anyone that stays in a bad relationship is weak. I myself was weak staying in a bad marriage. I am not anymore. But in terms of sexlessness I have never been there and never will be. 

I have written many times that I wish my ExW had cut the sex off so I could have divorced her way sooner. 

I further believe that woman that are healthy are LD basically because they do not love their husbands. 

That is probably hurtful to a lot of guys but it does not make it less true IMHO. 

So I will take that criticism about the weak comment, and I still say that, sorry...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> I further believe that woman that are healthy are LD basically because they do not love their husbands.
> 
> That is probably hurtful to a lot of guys but it does not make it less true IMHO.


Not sure about the the "weak" comment, but I agree with the above... a woman who really loves you wants to have sex with you...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> No, you are correct, I am saying that. @oldshirt is not but I am. I am saying that anyone that stays in a sexless marriage is weak. And that was not the main point in any of my posts about this subject. But that is how I feel.
> 
> Further, I think anyone that stays in a bad relationship is weak. I myself was weak staying in a bad marriage. I am not anymore. But in terms of sexlessness I have never been there and never will be.
> 
> ...


Saying 'sorry' is weak, dude. :redcard:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Happiness, this is all good but... There is risk, real or perceived, in hormone replacement. And as far as mental health, well, I'm not a physician, but do have 3 psychology degrees and know a thing or two about the subject. It's inconvenient to label everyone as a mental health patient, until it's the truth. People don't act against their own interests because they dislike sex or exercise or what not. 

I know the bodies of men and women are different. Ran into it during my hospital internship . But I also know that mind is, for most people, over matter.

I'm glad there are such solutions out there but there's a bunch of people, men or women, that hear HRT and go into no no no mode.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> No, you are correct, I am saying that. @oldshirt is not but I am. I am saying that anyone that stays in a sexless marriage is weak. And that was not the main point in any of my posts about this subject. But that is how I feel.
> 
> Further, I think anyone that stays in a bad relationship is weak. I myself was weak staying in a bad marriage. I am not anymore. But in terms of sexlessness I have never been there and never will be.
> 
> ...


So you were weak for staying in a bad marriage... so of course that naturally means that ANYBODY who stays in a marriage with a sexual disconnect must also be weak.

Hmmm... project much?

It's not that what you say is hurtful, it's just so much BS. It is possible for a woman to be very much in love but not wanting to screw like a wild rabbit. Testimony on this very thread... from honest women no less (credibility gap for you) attests to this.

Nor does a sexual disconnect automatically throw a relationship into the "bad relationship" category. It obviously does for you, but again your experience is not universal.

btw, in the future, you need to drop the 'H' from your use of "IMHO." You're not fooling anyone with that.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It is possible for a woman to be very much in love but not wanting to screw like a wild rabbit.


True, if they make a real effort to meet the loved husband's needs... otherwise it's not love... it's selfishness...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> True, if they make a real effort to meet the loved husband's needs... otherwise it's not love... it's selfishness...



And if she thought she was meeting her needs but the husband thought she wasn’t or wasn’t happy with he quality or methods with which those needs were being met? Who is supposed to be the final adjudicator or the reasonable one?
These things are rarely straightforward.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> These things are rarely straightforward.


Clearly not, and I know... :laugh: Negotiation is the key. I was never somebody who wanted sex every day (well apart from the beginning :grin2, but twice a week would have been nice... when you are rejected and frowned upon because you want it twice a month, then what is it? And apparently I "damaged" my wife for getting angry after been rejected several times... again: for wanting it once every couple of weeks. Was she meeting my needs? Not even remotely... did she think she was meeting my needs? I doubt it very much...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Any relationship that is assymetrically based on one attribute isn't going to be the same as a more balanced one. For any attribute. 

The mechanics of a decades long relationship are different than those of a new one, and as we get older, self selection is critical. If I'm a big outdoors guy and thru selection I pair up with Paul Bunyan's ex wife and live happily in the woods, that's hardly the same as being a suburban guy for decades and convincing Mrs Minivan to move to the sticks.

Not to mention the absurdity of one group giving advice to the other


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

john117 said:


> Happiness, this is all good but... There is risk, real or perceived, in hormone replacement. And as far as mental health, well, I'm not a physician, but do have 3 psychology degrees and know a thing or two about the subject. It's inconvenient to label everyone as a mental health patient, until it's the truth. People don't act against their own interests because they dislike sex or exercise or what not.
> 
> I know the bodies of men and women are different. Ran into it during my hospital internship . But I also know that mind is, for most people, over matter.
> 
> I'm glad there are such solutions out there but there's a bunch of people, men or women, that hear HRT and go into no no no mode.


There's risk, real, in not replacing hormones. Cardiovascular risk, urinary tract risk (it atrophies in a menopausal environment), osteoporosis risk, and more. Today we have bioidentical hormones available. People generally should do some research. Especially if these things are affecting your relationship with your partner. We advise men who are having problems to get their testosterone checked and remedy any big problems, same should hold for women.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Livvie said:


> There's risk, real, in not replacing hormones. Cardiovascular risk, urinary tract risk (it atrophies in a menopausal environment), osteoporosis risk, and more. Today we have bioidentical hormones available. People generally should do some research. Especially if these things are affecting your relationship with your partner. We advise men who are having problems to get their testosterone checked and remedy any big problems, same should hold for women.


Shame my wife is not prepared to look into it at all... I guess because I might be pestering her for sex once again... :laugh:


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> So you were weak for staying in a bad marriage... so of course that naturally means that ANYBODY who stays in a marriage with a sexual disconnect must also be weak.
> 
> Hmmm... project much?
> 
> ...


Key word in my post is "WAS" in reference to weak. 

Further, I disagree with every word of your post here. Also, the honest women that I remember reading about actually took action to find out what was wrong with their sex drives. FW divorced her sexless husband if I remember correctly. The woman that had issues with her drive whose name I cannot remember, looked and looked until she was able to get her sex drive back. Why did she do that, BECAUSE SHE LOVED HER HUSBAND, that is why.

Also, I have never said that men and women should not try to get it worked out so they can stay in their marriage. I believe that is the proper thing to do. I even think that the time frame is up to the individual and very hard to quantify. However, for me, a couple of years is the absolute max, if there are no overt medical issues, but even I say that is an individual choice. But there in my mind has to be a time limit. 

I know that we will never agree, but when a woman does not want to have sex with you in a relationship, and she has no health issues, and if something is up she does not seek medical help, the she does not love you. That is my belief, and you have your own.

That is my HUMBLE opinion. Your snarkiness does not affect me in the slightest. You are in a low/no sex marriage because you choose to be there. 

If you are unhappy, then get out. And contrary to what someone else said, I do find you to be whining about the status of your sexual relationship with your wife. 

You guys do not want to accept reality, that is your choice. You choose to say for money, status, "the kids", whatever you choose to stay for. That is why guys like you had dates with your hand on Friday night and I did not. 

And just to point out one other thing, I have not gotten snarky with any one poster until they did it to me first. Now it seems to me, that if we are all just talking, why does that need to happen? And we all not at least simi intelligent people, are we not able to disagree without being ugly or rude? 

Let's talk, let's disagree if we must, but can't we be civil....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Perception trumps reality tho. A year ago s-wife got a funny bra rash and that triggered epic medical intervention - thankfully we had good insurance - and countless breast selfies asking me and dd2 (2nd semester medical school, obviously an expert) if it is inflammatory breast cancer . Upon finding out it's a skin rash, she scrubbed the poor thing raw and caused another rash, more selfies, and more doctor visits.

When you deal with hypochondriacs at this level, the word hormone is fairly triggering.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> Key word in my post is "WAS" in reference to weak.
> 
> Further, I disagree with every word of your post here. Also, the honest women that I remember reading about actually took action to find out what was wrong with their sex drives. FW divorced her sexless husband if I remember correctly. The woman that had issues with her drive whose name I cannot remember, looked and looked until she was able to get her sex drive back. Why did she do that, BECAUSE SHE LOVED HER HUSBAND, that is why.
> 
> ...


So first of all, you've overlooked women on this post who DID take action. Just look at @happiness27. Is she "dishonest" just because she doesn't fit your mold? She's rocking it now, but it took a while to get there. But now, she enjoys life to the fullest... with the man she truly loves. Sounds like a success story to me. Ditto @inmyprime. Lots of folks who are in a great place now when you would have simply bailed. 

You also say "if there are no medical issues..." But a lack of hormonal balance is a medical issue. On the surface, it may look like lack of desire, but there's genuine internal chemistry running the show here. That you are ignorant of science doesn't make it not so. 

Here's the real clincher that proves your arrogance and absolute lack of humility, even if you are able to delude yourself into thinking you actually possess that quality. You accuse others of not facing reality, but in fact you have the narrowest view of all. As far as you are concerned, there is one explanation and one explanation only, science be damned, logic be damned, etc. That is pure arrogance through and through. Just as you project your own narrow experience onto others, you project your narrow understanding to arrive at a narrow reality against which there can be no debate in your mind. 

CLASSIC projection. Because you refuse to even consider anything outside your preconceptions, you delude yourself into thinking you're open minded and project your narrowmindedness onto others. 

I've been on the receiving end of a few "dude, get yo **** together" posts around here, and I generally pay them heed because they are actually well thought out and have some unizue attention to my story behind them rather than being the one-size-fits-all ramblings of a self aggrandizing ego. You're whole participation in this thread is nothing more than a classic **** measuring contest. This is proven by your insistence on saying, in all caps, that you "WAS" weak... but now that you're over that, you get the benefit of calling others weak. So very predictable, and so very unenlightened which is so ironic given that you feel like you are sharing the benefits of your wisdom with the rest of us.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> You may think that a man that stays with a woman that detests the thought of sex with him, is somehow honorable, and strong, and upright.





BluesPower said:


> People treat you the way that you allow them to treat you. So if you allow a woman to treat you as a eunuch, the you are by default a eunuch.


Tempers flair here on the idea of people being considered 'weak' for staying in sexless marriages. I think there needs to be at least some empathy here for the situation and it's not simply binary (sex=stay, no sex=go). In general I tend to prescribe to your worldview Blues and think people are very reluctant to see things clearly as they are. It's a massive blow to their ego to question the very foundation of their marriage or their self and identity. Women of course also struggle in sexless marriages but this thread seems male focused and I think there are some very real differences and distinctions in each situation.

For men then - in a lot of these cases these are long-term marriages where the couples met young, maybe a first real relationship, prescribed early to standard Disney fairytale fair ideals, and have invested so much into this that they can't unwind this all without completely nuking their world and self along with it. And that's tough to do for *anyone*. What they can't bare to see is that they never had the experienced 'vetting' skills (love being enough when young), rushing into marriage (logical next step and what everyone else is doing) and it's impossible for an a young person to project these things 10, 15, 20 years down the road. Over the course of that shared life journey many bad habits, power balances/leverage, and dynamics are established that can't be undone easily. And then you get a desperate man starving for affection, not realizing all these things (the constant talking, the MC route, choirplay, etc.) are doing more harm than good because they aren't treating any underlying roots cause(s) and both his and her ego won't let them see or discuss those to begin with. There are always never ending 'reasons' other than love or basic attraction or respect. You get a wife (who it should be understood is probably also not happy or satisfied) who owns the chessboard and can keep moving the pieces as needed to preserve the status quo that works for her. Endless moving goalposts for these men...

At the same time - I love posters like Rocky Mountain Yeti, Cletus, etc. - such great people and you can just tell quality human beings with so much to give. I can't say what the right answer is for them and I am sure (and hope) their wives add so much value elsewhere that this is just the lone fly-in-the-ointment and that this place is their preferred spot to vent. It's still tragic that they have to endure this tho. Breaks my heart to see people clinging to 'white knight' ideals when you get just one life to live and it's a short one. The idea that our significant other is our 'soul mate' and one and only is powerful but ultimately false.

I'm happily married with a solid and fulfilling (if not perfectly spectacular) sex life. I understand (and practice) a lot of what you are prescribing and I think that helps keep our marriage on rails. But I can tell you my 'vetting' process and skills would be very different today then when I started dating my wife when I was just 19. I know soooo much more about myself, the world and yes women. Let's not judge too harshly those that have this problem. It's a tall hill to climb to get to the point where you're ready and willing to burn your entire life to the ground. Yes the new life that springs up from the ashes very well may be better...


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

In Absentia said:


> The latest twist is that she turned off the sex tap in a very abrupt and unexpected way. She moved into the guest room when I was ill and never returned. When I questioned her, she said she was done with sex and that I could go somewhere else to have it if I wanted to... I was a bit shocked to be honest. And I still am. No idea why. I guess it's a combination of our sexual past, her ADs and menopause. I will never know.


The problem with going somewhere else when you are married is a lot of women have no interest in being a sexual third wheel, so to speak. So if you accept her deal you get screwed and not in the good way. I hope you aren't willing to accept this compromise, unless it is something you are truly OK with, because it's a raw deal.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> Clearly not, and I know... :laugh: Negotiation is the key. I was never somebody who wanted sex every day (well apart from the beginning :grin2, but twice a week would have been nice... when you are rejected and frowned upon because you want it twice a month, then what is it? And apparently I "damaged" my wife for getting angry after been rejected several times... again: for wanting it once every couple of weeks. Was she meeting my needs? Not even remotely... did she think she was meeting my needs? I doubt it very much...


You know, the damaging part, I have not believed that since you first said it. At that point, you were fairly young, it is quite possible that you really did not have the slightest clue what was going on or how to deal with it. 

Now I am not saying that you handled it the best way, least the Femi-Nazis attack me, but for that to be a big point of contention now, I am sorry, I am calling BS on that. 

Further, when even the low sex was happening, did you continue to meet her needs? Did you help raise children, did you continue to provide for your family, did you take care of her when she was sick. 

I have no doubt that you made mistakes, but those road blocks that she continues to throw up, just seem like BS. 

And I think that you realize that she stopped loving you a long time ago, was that all your fault, maybe so maybe no? But you know, at some point in the last 10 years, she could have just said, hey I'm done, I want a divorce, I don't love you anymore. 

But then, who would take care of her? See what I am saying, selfish, just pure cake eating in a different way...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Bananapeel said:


> The problem with going somewhere else when you are married is a lot of women have no interest in being a sexual third wheel, so to speak. So if you accept her deal you get screwed and not in the good way. I hope you aren't willing to accept this compromise, unless it is something you are truly OK with, because it's a raw deal.


Well, we will have to separate... I am aware of that. Right now, I'm not looking for another relationship... in fact, nobody knows since I haven't told anybody... :laugh:


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> So first of all, you've overlooked women on this post who DID take action. Just look at @happiness27. Is she "dishonest" just because she doesn't fit your mold? She's rocking it now, but it took a while to get there. But now, she enjoys life to the fullest... with the man she truly loves. Sounds like a success story to me. Ditto @inmyprime. Lots of folks who are in a great place now when you would have simply bailed.
> 
> You also say "if there are no medical issues..." But a lack of hormonal balance is a medical issue. On the surface, it may look like lack of desire, but there's genuine internal chemistry running the show here. That you are ignorant of science doesn't make it not so.
> 
> ...


First off, take a ****ing breath. If you will actually read some of the others post, not only about @happiness27, and the other user, not sure if she if the one or not, but I commended her and other women, just as I would a man, that took responsibility and worked to figure out what was wrong with his sex drive. 

See, men and women, that love their spouses, will do what they have to do to fix that problem. The female user that took responsibility to not only meet her husbands needs, but took it on herself to do the work necessary to work out the problem so that she could have a happy sexual relationship with her husband, she has been commended by me and others.

But the key difference in those women and others is that they were in love with their husbands, and they liked sex. They took the initiative to fix the problem and they did not abandon their loving husbands, BECAUSE THEY LOVED THEM. 

And when have I said that Hormonal issue were not a "real" health issue? Please provide that quote... I don't think that I ever said that. 

I won't choose to engage you anymore, you may attack all you want, I could not really care less.

I still completely agree with you in every possible way...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> You know, the damaging part, I have not believed that since you first said it. At that point, you were fairly young, it is quite possible that you really did not have the slightest clue what was going on or how to deal with it.
> 
> Now I am not saying that you handled it the best way, least the Femi-Nazis attack me, but for that to be a big point of contention now, I am sorry, I am calling BS on that.
> 
> ...



well, yes, but I will never know. It might be BS, it might be not. She's thrown these hand grenades at me and I've been blown up. It's true. I have no clue and I have no way of measuring the real damage to her. I know the damage to me. But I'm in limbo like that. It is horrible. And it is true that not a single time she said she wanted a divorce. And because it was such a long time ago, everything's gone rather grey and out of focus. She hates conflict. She is very static like that. I never knew what was really going on in her head. When I knew there was something wrong, I used to ask her... and she would say: there's nothing wrong... that's my face... after a while, I stopped asking.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> First off, take a ****ing breath. If you will actually read some of the other post, not only about @happiness27, and the other user, not sure if she if the one or not, but I commended her and other women, just as I would a man, that took responsibility and worked to figure out what was wrong with his sex drive.
> 
> See, men and women, that love their spouses, will do what they have to do to fix that problem. The female user that took responsibility to not only meet her husbands needs, but took it on herself to do the work necessary to work out the problem so that she could have a happy sexual relationship with her husband, she has been commended by me and others.
> 
> ...


And you still harp on the same old things. In some cases, where there is a sex mismatch, the women do like sex. They may even love it. But they are satisfied with lower frequency. You just insist that the ONLY possible reason for being happy with lower frequency is they are not into their husbands. That may or may not be the case whether you choose to accept it or not. 

Sometimes, these issues aren't easily resolved. It can take years. So if someone is trying, but isn't getting anywhere, does your "couple years" rule still apply, or do you just cast them to the curb? 

You also seem to operate from the idea that if there is a different threshold for satisfaction, that it's the one who is happy with a lower frequency who must adapt to the other, rather than there being any sort of compromise. Yet another clear cut case of arrogance and lack of willingness to explore any position other than your own. 

It's hard to take someone seriously who whines about being attacked when his opening salvo is "all you guys are weak."


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Sometimes it isn't just a ask the doc, take a pill and the trouble goes away. Sometimes it's consult and consult and surgery and nothing gets any better. And sometimes the fix isn't worth the cost. The risk reward balance is too far. 

After you look into all of that, for 2 people. How much does love really have to do with it?


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## Randy Lafever (Jul 8, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> You're whole participation in this thread is nothing more than a classic **** measuring contest. This is proven by your insistence on saying, in all caps, that you "WAS" weak... but now that you're over that, you get the benefit of calling others weak. So very predictable, and so very unenlightened which is so ironic given that you feel like you are sharing the benefits of your wisdom with the rest of us.


Do we have any evidence that this person isn't a virgin playing the "internet tough guy" role in order to boost his ego?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Think of mate selection as a Venn diagram, with the intersection of all circles being your target demographic.

To most people, some sexual activity baseline is assumed and discussions about specifics aren't quite as natural as one would assume, given the youth, inexperience, and all that.

At age 45 or 50, or after a marriage and divorce, one's Venn diagram is a bit more simplified. One may want sex, money, companionship, kids, etc in specific quantities that drive the selection.

In short term relationships, the Venn diagram becomes even simpler. 

It's hilarious that these basic stuff has to be explained...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Randy Lafever said:


> Do we have any evidence that this person isn't a virgin playing the "internet tough guy" role in order to boost his ego?


Since I posted on this thread I keep seeing ads for this underwear with hole and pouch. Scary


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> Key word in my post is "WAS" in reference to weak.
> 
> Further, I disagree with every word of your post here. Also, the honest women that I remember reading about actually took action to find out what was wrong with their sex drives. FW divorced her sexless husband if I remember correctly.


Yeah, good luck with that interpretation 



BluesPower said:


> Also, I have never said that men and women should not try to get it worked out so they can stay in their marriage. I believe that is the proper thing to do. I even think that the time frame is up to the individual and very hard to quantify. However, for me, a couple of years is the absolute max, if there are no overt medical issues, but even I say that is an individual choice. But there in my mind has to be a time limit.


You mentioned that frequent sex = love. (I don't 100% disagree with that btw. I just think it's a bit of a simplistic way to look at it and the way you are phrasing these things, is not really helping your case...)

Do you reckon the frequency of sex also correlates with the strength of love? So if you want to have sex 4 times a week but your wife only wants to **** you twice a week, do you reckon you love her twice as much, as she loves you? Or is there another way to qualify & quantify love in your opinion?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> As I understand it, her doc decided that particular hormone cocktail wasnt for her.
> 
> I guess when the feeling faded to a memory, she lost the sense of urgency that went with it. That and the now strictly intellectual knowledge of that feeling doesn't override her existing, present feeling, now complicated by the genuine physical complications of menopause.


I don't understand - (and, hey, you don't have to answer as I am not intending to get overly-prying) why didn't the doctor just adjust the cocktail? That would be a standard response - not to just drop it cold turkey. 

Rocky, I just want to give you my own insight into what happens to a woman when her levels drop and get out of whack. 

For ME, in my own experimentation with this (and this is the kicker) - your brain and your body tell you that you're normal for the most part. It creates a comfy cocoon of denial. You literally DON'T KNOW and can't figure out that there is anything "wrong." 

It is only through persistence of getting to an equilibrium that you realize things could be different/better. 

Have you ever had a physical issue yourself that you just sort of lived with and then, maybe finally did something about it - and then after you did, you were, like "Wow, I didn't realize how much that was bothering me! I wish I'd done something sooner!"

It's like THAT. 

Only two weeks ago, I upped my T from 1mg to 2mg because I was absolutely dragging for the past 6 months. I was irritable, standoffish, and frustrated with my lack of interest in sex. Just could NOT jumpstart my libido. It was awful.

After 2 weeks of being on the upped dosage, I finally started getting my sexy twinges back. I am more upbeat, positive and I have a renewed awareness of how cute I think my husband is. This change is truly amazing to me. The T was the only variable that changed. 

I will preach this from the rooftops even though women continue to be mired down in doubt, skepticism and the entrapment of their menopausal brains: hormone therapy - for the women who can do it and who qualify for it - can restore your youth in a myriad of healthful ways.

Women no longer have to suffer in menopause or with low libido, painful dry vagina, up and down emotions - when there is a huge wave of changed-gyno thinking sweeping across the health care system. Yes, it's true there is money in it for the doctors, which they are finally recognizing: Women have money to spend on feeling better and preserving their quality of life. As far as I'm concerned: win-win.

From my present standpoint, I feel so badly for my husband who is a guy who is just plugging along being this wonderful spouse faithfully day after day while I have been mostly a roller coaster puzzle to him. Thank goodness for the doctors and persistence and my own dissatisfaction with my own attitudes and behaviors.

Rocky, I hope your wife gets a new set of eyes and ears on her to allow her to find solutions.

Also, I just wanted to add: I hope I'm not coming across as pushy. I don't mean to be. But after my last Friday discussion with my gyno, who was enthusiastically in agreement with me about how few women realize there are solutions for them, I'm convinced there is quite possibly a large population of what is referred to in TAM as "LD" women - who could flip that...much to the satisfaction of both the women and their sex partners.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Randy Lafever said:


> Should my wife divorce me? We have sex about every three months, as she feels the need, but if she told me today we would never have sex again I wouldn't be the least bit disappointed or miss it. If she tried to increase our current sex-load, to, say, monthly, I would push back on that, I'm down for compromise and all, but a three hundred percent increase is unreasonable.
> 
> Reading this and other similar threads, I have found it helpful to replace all references to sex with references to cooking. Would I accept it if my wife announced I was to fend for myself every meal for the rest of my life? I do need to eat. Some men feel like they need to have sex.
> 
> I doubt I would divorce my wife in that situation simply because the odds that I will leap out of the nest and land in another nest on the next branch down are very low. If you're having sex four times a year and decide to get a divorce, you are suddenly having sex zero times a year. It just doesn't make a whole lot of logical sense.


Why would one think they would go from four to zero times a year? Why not four to more than four, say a very much whole bunch more?

I'm not trying to be a smart butt. Really asking.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> I don't understand - (and, hey, you don't have to answer as I am not intending to get overly-prying) why didn't the doctor just adjust the cocktail? That would be a standard response - not to just drop it cold turkey.
> 
> Rocky, I just want to give you my own insight into what happens to a woman when her levels drop and get out of whack.
> 
> ...


Is there a cocktail of hormones to stop a woman nagging at me and generally show a bit more respect and interest in my life? Or do I actually need to talk to her in order to make her do it? >

I was only semi-joking...But I always wonder what the side effects are of taking hormones for the long term? Maybe we should have a separate thread on this. But I know that people are generally very reluctant to mess around with hormones in their body and there is possibly a reason why nature intended to have certain hormone production at certain points in a woman's life cycle (and nature probably didn't really take husband's sex drive that much into consideration when 'designing' the correct mix of cocktails; screw you, nature!). Maybe there needs to be more education on this? It reminds me a bit on a time when people were being generally reluctant looking into therapy (in my country of origin, only 'crazy' people went to a shrink. I know in US it has been very popular for a very long time).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

"I doubt I would divorce my wife in that situation simply because the odds that I will leap out of the nest and land in another nest on the next branch down are very low."



Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Why would one think they would go from four to zero times a year? Why not four to more than four, say a very much whole bunch more?
> 
> I'm not trying to be a smart butt. Really asking.


He means: what if he ends up having sex with trees only for the rest of his life, instead of a human person, even though it will be rare.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> I don't understand - (and, hey, you don't have to answer as I am not intending to get overly-prying) why didn't the doctor just adjust the cocktail? That would be a standard response - not to just drop it cold turkey.
> 
> Rocky, I just want to give you my own insight into what happens to a woman when her levels drop and get out of whack.
> 
> ...


To answer your question, the doc did adjust the cocktail. It's just that it was determined that T wasn't to be one of the ingredients. Her original reason for going focused on low energy (and more energy should as a by product yield more desire). T is a common energy booster. But for a variety of medical reasons it was determined there were better reasons for her to get energy. 

She's doing quite well here now. Managed mostly through diet and physical activity, which I think is great. 

Based on my observation and intimate understanding of my wife, I agree completely with your next paragraph. It was very hard for her to come to the conclusion that something was wrong. 

A couple of side, but very relevant notes, she struggled with undiagnosed hypothyroidism for years, which is an absolute energy killer. What's more, every form of birth control we ever tried was an unmitigated disaster. Her system is incredibly sensitive, far more so than the average woman it seems, so things that other women take in stride, crush her in various ways. 

I think you and my wife would see a lot the same. She has been very proactive, and determined in pursuing hormone therapy, to the point of telling our old school system doctor to take a flying leap and paying out of pocket to go outside the system for both visits and meds. 

The menopausal problems go well beyond the pure hormone issues as well. There's also the very real physical discomfort down there (largely influenced by hormones I know, but the physical aspect manifests differently than the desire aspect). But she and her doc have also found a creme that keeps things down there humming well enough that the discomfort is not a problem, and less recovery time is needed between events. 

Aside from the lack of desire, I really have no grounds for complaint. All the other possible symptoms are nonexistent, or she hides them very well. There are no emotional outbursts or irrational behavior often traced to gross hormonal imbalances. She has worked very hard, and succeeded exceptionally well, in keeping things on an even keel. In that regard, she has shown great diligence and yes, concern for me, which has not gone unnoticed.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> I will preach this from the rooftops


Could you perhaps start a thread, I'd have a question or two but this is probably not the right place.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> You mentioned that frequent sex = love. (I don't 100% disagree with that btw. I just think it's a bit of a simplistic way to look at it and the way you are phrasing these things, is not really helping your case...)
> 
> Do you reckon the frequency of sex also correlates with the strength of love? So if you want to have sex 4 times a week but your wife only wants to **** you twice a week, do you reckon you love her twice as much, as she loves you? Or is there another way to qualify & quantify love in your opinion?


Well I don't think my opinion matters since I am not in a sexless/lowsex relationship. But basically, for me, this goes back to some of the other sexless-lowsex threads. 

So basically, I do not date women, that are not into sex. I get all the caveats that everyone makes. And I hate to be so simplistic but that is how it works for me. 

Current GF was single for a while, did not sleep around much, and had way less than good sex in her previous relationships. 

She is currently very happy with her sex life.

Now you can have legitimate differences is sex drive HD vs LD or even HD vs ND (Normal Drive-whatever that is) , or whatever combination. That I can understand. 

I could see negotiation in some areas, about frequency within certain limits. I think that to an extent is reasonable. 

And like you, I do kind of view sex as love in a way. I actually view love as many things, like pampering the woman that I am with, taking care of them when they are sick, romance, cooking for them, all the usual stuff, and a big part of that is frequent sex and enthusiastic desire for sex. 

What I would not deal with, in any marriage or relationship, is a woman that likes to have sex once or twice a month. That does not work for me, and if any woman that I ever dated indicated that, which for whatever reason has not happened, then she would not make the cut. 

Maybe I am overly simplistic but at my age after all the things I have been through in my life, simple works for me. I am either happy in a relationship or I am not in a relationship. For me, at 54, that is how it works. It has worked that way for a long time for me.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Yeah, good luck with that interpretation
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just for a little humor, may I ask if four times in one day with several days off would qualify as 4X/week? Or, is it better for men to have enthusiastic sex at least 1X/day 4X+ per week? 

Dear, dear friends/fellas - from my standpoint as a woman, how much I love my husband is not equated with how often I have sex with him AT ALL.

However, I am very much listening to you guys in these conversations. I would never have realized anything about how men view/equate sex if it weren't for these discussions. 

I feel extremely naive in this regard. 

I did not grow up knowing anything about men - I knew that boys had penises but I was not allowed to ponder that. Until I actually had sex the first time, I knew nothing about how to have sex, that a woman had a hymen and what would happen the first time (thought I had started my period). 

It's astounding how women in older age groups had such spotty educations about sex. Younger women these days appear to know a whole lot more at a much younger age because of the proliferation of information.

But, for me, I honestly never knew how men viewed sex, that they would desire it more often, how they viewed masturbation or how often many/most masturbated. I remember once many years ago asking my husband how often he masturbated and his response shocked me: daily. 

Do you think me stupid? I was so embarrassed that I didn't realize anything about male sexuality. 

I immediately began to educate myself in a hundred ways, looking up everything I could about the subject - from how best to perform fellatio to what was sexually pleasing to men in general - and had many conversations with my husband. This opened a whole new world to me and, frankly, I got a renewed sense of aggravation with the supreme lack of education I received growing up and as a young woman. 

It's a high hurdle to overcome, given the differences between men and women physically, emotionally and sexually. 

I feel a bit of pressure now as women get referred to in simple categories as "HD" or "LD" - jeez, it feels like a competition. 

I just want to enjoy life with my husband and love each other in mutually satisfying ways - being respectful, understanding, compassionate, loving...approaching it all with at least a bit of a sense of humor. 

Sex is fun, exciting and satisfying but it's also, in some ways, clumsy, sloppy and hilarious. I want to be able to enjoy it but also enjoy being an imperfect regular human who isn't trying to role-play as some highly skilled porn star. I just want to be myself and I want him to do the same. That's a more real connection that leads to the feelings of well-being and love I think we both cherish the most.

Once when we were having long-distance Skype sex, my husband was doing some sexy out-of-the shower strip-tease with a towel and as he sat on the hotel bed, he slipped off the bed and tumbled on to the floor. Still one of my favorite memories of sex with my husband that endeared him to me forever.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> Well I don't think my opinion matters since I am not in a sexless/lowsex relationship. But basically, for me, this goes back to some of the other sexless-lowsex threads.
> 
> So basically, I do not date women, that are not into sex. I get all the caveats that everyone makes. And I hate to be so simplistic but that is how it works for me.
> 
> ...


No, I get that. I don't think that's a bad or wrong thing to want (to have plenty of sex). Everyone here I think wants pretty much the same thing (to love and to be loved). It's mostly a question of degree. There aren't that many guys who have zero sex. Some have less sex than others. Some have 'worse' sex than others (in their estimation). I am just curious what would be your 'breaking point' with your girlfriend or whoever. How much does her desire (or frequency) would need to drop for you to leave her?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Just for a little humor, may I ask if four times in one day with several days off would qualify as 4X/week? Or, is it better for men to have enthusiastic sex at least 1X/day 4X+ per week?
> 
> Dear, dear friends/fellas - from my standpoint as a woman, how much I love my husband is not equated with how often I have sex with him AT ALL.
> 
> Sex is fun, exciting and satisfying but it's also, in some ways, clumsy, sloppy and hilarious. I want to be able to enjoy it but also enjoy being an imperfect regular human who isn't trying to role-play as some highly skilled porn star. I just want to be myself and I want him to do the same. That's a more real connection that leads to the feelings of well-being and love I think we both cherish the most.


For me, it is not a planned thing, I don't plan sex on MWF. When I am with my GF, because we are not living together yet because of work logistics, so we have some nights apart... But when I am with her I want her constantly. She is beautiful, sexy, loving, and everything else. If we are kissing it usually leads to sex. 

While I am an everyday guy, I just want it to happen, and when it does not, well that has not happened, but if it did, I would want to know why. To me natural, sexual desire is constant for the most part. I mean cuddling with her at night, naked, what else is supposed to happen?

I do think love contains reciprocal desire, unless you are sick or don't feel well for some reason. But I am a simplistic male, so who knows...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Just for a little humor, may I ask if *four times in one day* with several days off would qualify as 4X/week? Or, is it better for men to have enthusiastic sex at least 1X/day 4X+ per week?


I think this would qualify as rape in my household. :wink2: (joking!)


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> No, I get that. I don't think that's a bad or wrong thing to want (to have plenty of sex). Everyone here I think wants pretty much the same thing (to love and to be loved). It's mostly a question of degrees. There aren't that many guys who have zero sex. Some have less sex tan others. Some have 'worse' sex than others (in their estimation). I am just curious what would be your 'breaking point' with your girlfriend or whoever. How much does her desire (or frequency) would need to drop for you to leave her?


Well again, sorry to be simplistic, but if the sex dropped off in some noticeable level, I would try to talk about it with her. I would want to know what is wrong, is something bothering her, basically what is up.

I am sure that when we live together full time that sex may drop down to once per day maybe 5 times a week or something. We would be together all the time for the most part. Surly that will slow the urgency at some point. 

But what is that limit? I think the limit would be lack of response or enthusiasm for no ascertainable reason. I don't want to just have sex with her, I what her to want to have sex with me. If that were to stop for no particular reason, and discussing it did not solve the problem, well, then I am not happy, relationship over. 

Again, simplistic...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> To answer your question, the doc did adjust the cocktail. It's just that it was determined that T wasn't to be one of the ingredients. Her original reason for going focused on low energy (and more energy should as a by product yield more desire). T is a common energy booster. But for a variety of medical reasons it was determined there were better reasons for her to get energy.
> 
> She's doing quite well here now. Managed mostly through diet and physical activity, which I think is great.
> 
> ...


IMHO, I think a doctor needs to take a renewed look at the T. I feel the doc failed her there - unless s/he has some medically protective reason for removing it. 

The T MATTERS HUGELY. Without it, sex would be non-existent in my brain and body. I wouldn't even think about it. Even if I did, it would be difficult to orgasm because I would not be able to focus (which, I feel it's easier for my husband to focus to achieve an orgasm, so that a woman having difficulty here may be baffling to men.)

I am presently on 2MG. For me, 1MG was too low. Different doctors have (without exposing their patients' identities) said that around 2-2 1/2 MG is where most of their patients like to be. HOWEVER, everything needs to be very routinely monitored through blood tests at least 2X/year. 

The Estrogen cream for vaginal dryness treats a wide range of issues, not just for sex. But the use of it, I felt, was not clearly explained to me until I really pressed my woman gyno. She was more open and chatty with me than my male gyno (although he's top of his field and I respect him). I need a woman doctor to *get* me who has a woman's body and isn't just looking at charts and graphs and research reports to glean an understanding. 

Bottom line: I'm going to go out on a limb and make a guess based on anecdotal evidence: the desire issue is the T. She seriously can't help it all by herself, literally trapped by her body chemistry. If it's safe for her, she might be willing to give it another try. 

As for the thyroid, I was on three different ones over the years but, FINALLY, my doc took me off the ill-fitting Naturethroid and sent a custom order for a compounded combination of T3 and T4 based on my blood test results. In all my years of dealing with hypothyroid, I never knew this hormone could be custom compounded - but it has made a better difference. 

Dang, no matter what I do, I get overly enthusiastic, don't I? Ugh. Just ignore what's annoying.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I think this would qualify as rape in my household. :wink2: (joking!)


Oops...what if I was the one who instigated it? I apologized to my husband for getting greedy.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> IMHO, I think a doctor needs to take a renewed look at the T. I feel the doc failed her there - unless s/he has some medically protective reason for removing it.
> 
> The T MATTERS HUGELY. Without it, sex would be non-existent in my brain and body. I wouldn't even think about it. Even if I did, it would be difficult to orgasm because I would not be able to focus (which, I feel it's easier for my husband to focus to achieve an orgasm, so that a woman having difficulty here may be baffling to men.)
> 
> ...


Don't worry, I love your enthusiasm. 

Let me say my wife and I both have great confidence in this doc and he did indeed think there was good medical reason for not including the T.

In another parallel, this same doc did a similar thing for the thyroid; abandoned the Naturethroid and replaced it with a custom compound. It has worked wonders. 

One area where my wife and I differ, and it's actually her that is pushing things in the right direction purely sexually, is her willingness to try different things on the medical front. I'm naturally very anti-pill of any kind. I'm very leery, (much like as expressed by @inmyprime above) of anything that tinkers with the body's natural chemistry. I don't even take aspirin for a headache or prescribed pain meds after a serious injury. It took two years of regular beatings from both my wife and doctor to get me to relent on taking BP meds. I do worry about the possible long term effects some of these things may have on my wife, especially because everything seems to affect her so; that and there is a history of breast cancer in her family. So while a couple weeks with the high T cocktail was tons o' fun, I'm loathe to recommend returning to that.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> For me, it is not a planned thing, I don't plan sex on MWF. When I am with my GF, because we are not living together yet because of work logistics, so we have some nights apart... But when I am with her I want her constantly. She is beautiful, sexy, loving, and everything else. If we are kissing it usually leads to sex.
> 
> While I am an everyday guy, I just want it to happen, and when it does not, well that has not happened, but if it did, I would want to know why. To me natural, sexual desire is constant for the most part. I mean cuddling with her at night, naked, what else is supposed to happen?
> 
> I do think love contains reciprocal desire, unless you are sick or don't feel well for some reason. But I am a simplistic male, so who knows...


Yeah, I get you there. 

I have to tell you that, from a woman's standpoint, we have these roller coaster hormones and it's not something that's just made up. It's REAL. So, sometimes, as a gal, your trigger doesn't get tripped because we don't have that T that you guys have. T is a very powerful hormone - it's one of my supplementals. 

Is it possible that I can suggest that guys consider the possibility that the differences between a woman's level of T and a man's level of T is the real culprit here?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Just for a little humor, may I ask if four times in one day with several days off would qualify as 4X/week? Or, is it better for men to have enthusiastic sex at least 1X/day 4X+ per week?
> 
> Dear, dear friends/fellas - from my standpoint as a woman, how much I love my husband is not equated with how often I have sex with him AT ALL.
> 
> ...


Don't be. You are not. 

I am sure there is some variation or 'specifications' with men (concerning what they want/need, sexually) but with me (and I am sure many others), the basic premise is very simple: we just want to feel like our womenz want us, sexually. This is probably biologically wired, but I think sexual rejection or the feeling that you are not wanted that much from your partner is possibly one of the worst possible types of rejections that a spouse can give you. I don't think it's to do with frequency (though it's easy/simple to quantify this, by counting how many times etc). 

And for me my wife's performance is also absolutely secondary (not even secondary: it doesn't matter at all somehow. Maybe that's where I differ from some other men, not sure). What I want is emotional connection. And it doesn't have to be sexual; a wife who is interested in me or what i am doing seems very important to me; I would rather we had a good/deep conversation in the evening than disconnected monkey sex. For me, sex is a tool, a way of expression that we are still connected, still together, contrary to what some women may believe ('guys just need a hole and an orgasm'). She doesn't need to be the best in oral, or let me stick in anywhere I can or pee on me from the chandelier or whatever...I just want to feel like there is another person who is interested in me as a human being. I think I would find it VERY hard if I didn't have this. 

And at some point in my life, I thought I was beginning to loose it...I am happy I managed to get it back. But that is mostly thanks to my wife.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Oops...what if I was the one who instigated it? I apologized to my husband for getting greedy.


Yes, that's what I was getting at :grin2:
I love nothing more than for my wife to 'rape' me 4 times a day. But I don't think that ever happened. 3 times in 24 hours was maybe maximum I was able to do, before the friction gets so great that I could light a camp fire with it.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Yeah, I get you there.
> 
> I have to tell you that, from a woman's standpoint, we have these roller coaster hormones and it's not something that's just made up. It's REAL. So, sometimes, as a gal, your trigger doesn't get tripped because we don't have that T that you guys have. T is a very powerful hormone - it's one of my supplementals.
> 
> Is it possible that I can suggest that guys consider the possibility that the differences between a woman's level of T and a man's level of T is the real culprit here?


That would certainly be my wife's position. And I do find her sincere when she says the periods of relatively infrequent sex were in no way a reflection on her level of love for me.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, that's what I was getting at :grin2:
> I love nothing more than for my wife to 'rape' me 4 times a day. But I don't think that ever happened. 3 times in 24 hours was maybe maximum I was able to do, before the friction gets so great that I could light a camp fire with it.


Appreciate the insight. I'll be sure to bring marshmallows next time that happens.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Wow, I go away for a couple of days and you guys get on a roll.



Faithful Wife said:


> I don’t know any guy on TAM who matches your entire list.


Hey, nice of you to defend the sexless guys but I am feeling a bit ignored over here. I might not match the ENTIRE list but I think I come pretty darn close. Have you had me on ignore so long that you forgot about me?

I do think the list is useful to give a guy in the early stages a set of guidelines of what to do and what to avoid. But as was pointed out by @Married but Happy, you can move every item in your life (except one) from second list to the first and still be sexless. And as others have pointed out, the real key item is willingness to end the relationship over dissatisfaction with one's sex life. Some are. Some aren't. Not everyone in the first group is having great sex. But everyone in a sexless marriage is in the second group. Voluntarily.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I just scanned through this thread, and if I can say, the points I have taken from this thread is that there is no point 

It is amazing the amount of generalization that has been thrown around in this thread by some who try to make it out to be a simple black & white issue (not talking race here lol).

First, there is this idea posted by some that they would never ever be in a relation where sex would be an issue. This would seem to imply that if you are in such a relationship, then it is by your own doing. I do agree that if there are sexual mismatch issues from the start, then yes, you do bear the brunt of it if you stick around. However, many were in happy, sexually satisfying relations which over time have changed (whether it be due to children, finances, health, now hate the person you are married to, etc...). 

Then there is this whole "If you aren't getting the sex you need it must mean he/she doesn't truly love you" concept, which once again, is trying to take a problem that has a lot of grey area and make it black & white, especially without trying to understand the underlying reasons for the mismatch.

Next we move on to the idea that if you remain in a relationship where your sexual needs aren't being met, you are weak. Once again, grey area. Even though you may be unhappy with your sex life, that does not in any way mean your sex life is your #1 priority above all else. There could be a lot of other areas you are happy with. Add in the fact for those who also have families, and it would seem the weak one would be the person to just walk out the door (assuming there are other positives).

So yeah, this thread is a bit pointless and really seems like it was just meant to shame those who are in sexual mismatch relationships (could've just stuck with the other thread)...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Don't worry, I love your enthusiasm.
> 
> Let me say my wife and I both have great confidence in this doc and he did indeed think there was good medical reason for not including the T.
> 
> ...


huh, that's interesting about the T. My impressions and conversations is that T is actually protective against BC. I'm sure, though, that I don't know your wife's situation as well as her doctor. 

It would be interesting to have a second opinion. 

We have some history of BC in my family also, which my docs are aware of - but we lack the BRACA gene. What I love about all of this discussion is that, well, it's a discussion - and that's a whole lot more than women have ever had in the past.

As for the BP meds, I am in agreement with you. I don't like those meds for their side effects - so they need to be carefully monitored and tweaked.

My husband's BP was creeping upwards about five years ago and I came down on him like an iron anvil. This likely doesn't apply to you because you are probably a fit military fitness mindset guy. But my husband was overweight and ate like crap. Seriously, like CRAP, which I dogged him for years about.

I told him he was either going to have to change his lifestyle or face taking BP meds. For HIM, that worked. But that certainly doesn't apply to everyone. He lost the weight by bicycling every day, cut his food portions and ate nothing but whole, fresh foods and a smaller portion of lean meat. He also drinks hibiscus tea once daily. We also got him on T supplementation to get him out of low T.

I was interested in Dean Ornish's approach but, again, not everyone is interested in this approach. 

In another scenario, I was covering a heart surgeon story once and I turned to the surgeon and asked: What's the main thing you'd advise a person to do to avoid heart troubles?

His earnest, steadfast reply was: Vegetarian diet. (I really thought he was going to recommend some pharmaceutical panacea...)

But, again, people need to do what is best for them as individuals. I'm a doctor's PITA. I ask a LOT of questions and bug them to tell me exactly why they are choosing to do whatever treatment they are choosing and if there are any other possible choices. The great doctors don't mind.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> Well again, sorry to be simplistic, but if the sex dropped off in some noticeable level, I would try to talk about it with her. I would want to know what is wrong, is something bothering her, basically what is up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And if she provided you with a reasonable explanation? For example, if she said: "I really do love you, and want to have sex with you, but I physically am not able do it every day. I know this might upset you and i don't mean to upset you but this is not my intent. I have to take kids to school/do groceries/take care of household/go to work/**** my boss/cook dinner/ etc etc". Would this be sufficient explanation to you, or would you leave her because she was having sex with you twice a week instead of 5 times a week?



(oops, I think one of the reasons may not be so valid but you get the point).



For most people, there is real life, real issues, real people (if kids/family) - all beyond the sex - versus your or my d1ck. The question is where is everyone's breaking point/tolerance level. Sometimes you just need to move the discrepancy/make an adjustment by a millimetre and that is all that is needed! Sometimes you live in hope, and nothing changes. There are complicated reasons and likelihoods for both of those outcomes. Those are aspects that are worth discussing, not the lists.



These lists, sorry to say, do absolutely nothing and i first thought it was a joke. If I followed the football (I think you call it soccer in your country) world cup and after it was finished, I made a list and divided all the teams into 'sh1tty teams' and 'great teams', as my sole analysis. What would we learn from this list?  This analysis would not only be too superficial but worse than useless, because it is misleading and simplistic.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> And if she provided you with a reasonable explanation? For example, if she said: "I really do love you, and want to have sex with you, but I physically am not able do it every day. I know this might upset you and i don't mean to upset you but this is not my intent. I have to take kids to school/do groceries/take care of household/go to work/**** my boss/cook dinner/ etc etc". Would this be sufficient explanation to you, or would you leave her because she was having sex with you twice a week instead of 5 times a week?
> 
> (oops, I think one of the reasons may not be so valid but you get the point).
> 
> ...


First of all this is a completely different question. And I caught the **** my boss joke. 

What I am saying is this, there needs to be a good reason. For example, we were babysitting grand children this sat-sun, so until we dropped them off, no sex. I get that, I am not completely stupid. We just had sex once sat morning, and twice sunday night after we came back from our event we had to go too. 

I mean even for us life sometimes gets in the way. Twice a week would never work for me, not going to happen. 

We could continue to build hypotheticals, but the bottom line is this. I don't do low sex/no sex. I just don't. Twice a week is low for me, and I am not saying that I would not be willing in any way to figure something out, but no, not twice a week over a long period of time. Maybe ever other day at the outside, but that would be quite a stretch, but it might be workable.

And I did make allowances for a serious health issues, or problems in the post that you referenced. If there was a real issue that we needed to deal with, we would deal with it. 

And maybe in 5 years or so my sex drive will slow down who really knows? But who is to say that hers will, maybe I will feel pressure to perform or have to step my game up?

Plus, I think we are at a different stage in life. We are at the stage that we get to spend as much time with each other as we can. Work is the only responsibility outside of our relationship that we have. We get to pickup and go whenever we want, sans work obligations. 

Does that sound at all reasonable or am I still a crazy outlier???


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Someone with different priorities. Nothing more, nothing less. 

The only outlier here is your inability or unwillingness to relate to others who - voluntarily or not - have different priorities. 

Maybe a prescription is needed


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> First of all this is a completely different question. And I caught the **** my boss joke.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don’t think it’s unreasonable. Nor that you are an “outlier”. You would be an outlier if the woman you were having daily sex with, was your wife of 40 years or however long. But since it’s new-found love, it’s not that unusual at all. In fact, it would be unusual if you didn’t have that much sex at this point. 

Anyway, regarding excuse reasons, it depends whether those reasons are reasonable in her eyes but not in your eyes or vice versa; that’s where most people clash: two different views/perspectives of the same thing (doesn’t have to be about sex). 





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Duplicate


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Wow, I go away for a couple of days and you guys get on a roll.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hold, your self deprecation notwithstanding, I think you know way more about many things than that list would give you or any guy here credit for. You know your wife and your situation very well, and you’ve chosen to stay for your own reasons. 

You may identify with a lot on that list, but your understanding of your situation makes it different. You aren’t clueless about your wife’s issues, nor your own. The list is full of words implicating “sexless guys” as clueless and ignorant. If anything, I consider you quite knowledgeable about many sexual issues, whether it is through experience or just reading and learning on the side. Some of the things you were saying on another thread about being dominant really showed some of that knowledge, as an example. 

I know you have presented yourself in a certain way at TAM, self deprecating as I said. But I know things would have been quite different for you had your life unfolded differently.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> I don’t think it’s unreasonable. Nor that you are an “outlier”. You would be an outlier if the woman you were having daily sex with, was your wife of 40 years or however long. But since it’s new-found love, it’s not that unusual at all. In fact, it would be unusual if you didn’t have that much sex at this point.
> 
> Anyway, regarding excuse reasons, it depends whether those reasons are reasonable in her eyes but not in your eyes or vice versa; that’s where most people clash: two different views/perspectives of the same thing (doesn’t have to be about sex).


The only thing that I have any issue with, not that I agree with all of this but it is not worth explaining, is the excuse reasons part. 

There is a reason, a problem, and issue, or there is not, if we are together we work on it together. 

Otherwise we are not together.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> I just scanned through this thread, and if I can say, the points I have taken from this thread is that there is no point
> 
> ....
> 
> So yeah, this thread is a bit pointless and really seems like it was just meant to shame those who are in sexual mismatch relationships (could've just stuck with the other thread)...


QFT

The lack of a point makes the list of things wrong with “sexless men” then be the only point. And since all of those insults and shaming statements have already been said on the other thread (and many other threads in the past), it is just clearly a “hey let’s shame and insult them a bit more” thread. Or “Let me point out the many many ways these guys are failures and why”.

Yet it was presented as if possibly some of the “sexless men” may see themselves in the insult list and strive for more things on the “I’m awesome” list. 

Like, really? Any man would take these lists and pick out of them ways they could improve themselves? Right. That’s gone over so well.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Hold, your self deprecation notwithstanding, I think you know way more about many things than that list would give you or any guy here credit for.


Knowing is nothing if one is not willing to put the knowledge into action. And I am not willing to put it into action. So I am exactly the weak doormat that the second list describes.

In fact, knowing but not acting is even worse than simply being clueless and ignorant. More cowardly.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> Knowing is nothing if one is not willing to put the knowledge into action. And I am not willing to put it into action. So I am exactly the weak doormat that the second list describes.
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, knowing but not acting is even worse than simply being clueless and ignorant. More cowardly.




You are still funny though. So you don’t really fit the so called looser list, sorry  


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## Randy Lafever (Jul 8, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Why would one think they would go from four to zero times a year? Why not four to more than four, say a very much whole bunch more?


You don't quit your job in hopes you will win the lottery. You got really lucky that you found someone willing to have sex with you. Don't fool yourself into thinking it is likely you will find another one.

Now, I know what you're thinking. It's easy to find someone to have sex with you. Okay. The really hard part is finding one who will have sex with you a second time.

There are so few women in the world that might find you attractive. You dumb-lucked into one. Don't take it for granted.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Randy Lafever said:


> You don't quit your job in hopes you will win the lottery. You got really lucky that you found someone willing to have sex with you. Don't fool yourself into thinking it is likely you will find another one.
> 
> Now, I know what you're thinking. It's easy to find someone to have sex with you. Okay. The really hard part is finding one who will have sex with you a second time.
> 
> There are so few women in the world that might find you attractive. You dumb-lucked into one. Don't take it for granted.


Sorry to disappoint, I was lucky to find my wife, but it was while shopping successfully and eating a great variety foods I like over and over and having a great diet. 

And it's possible for all.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Too bad it takes a PhD to understand what "possible" means 

For the rest of y'all, do the infamous Dr John test. Pretend you have been granted a magic elixir from the basement of Pfizer Laboratories. Said elixir will cause any woman in your circle of friends and co-workers to fall in love with you. Not to have wild monkey sex just yet, just love.

Now, out of your circle, and assuming you are going to use it on a woman close to your own age, how many recipients can you think of? Single or married, that meet your own standards?

Online dating adds volume of candidates but the selection process becomes more arduous. 

Now, once you've administered the elixir, what are the chances she'll be a sex kitten, given what you already know about her? How about overall compatibility? Looks? Etc etc

Hint: whole industry sectors exist because humans can't understand what "possible" means.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Randy Lafever said:


> Ragnar Ragnasson said:
> 
> 
> > Why would one think they would go from four to zero times a year? Why not four to more than four, say a very much whole bunch more?
> ...


I hear you saying it's hard to find a woman to have an ongoing sexual relationship with and if a guy does find it, he dumb lucked into it. Is that what you are saying?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Too bad it takes a PhD to understand what "possible" means



You mean probability? Nope. Even economists don’t know how they work.



john117 said:


> For the rest of y'all, do the infamous Dr John test. Pretend you have been granted a magic elixir from the basement of Pfizer Laboratories. Said elixir will cause any woman in your circle of friends and co-workers to fall in love with you.



Why magic? It’s called a roofy 



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Livvie said:


> I hear you saying it's hard to find a woman to have an ongoing sexual relationship with and if a guy does find it, he dumb lucked into it. Is that what you are saying?



Luck is complicated.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Livvie said:


> I hear you saying it's hard to find a woman to have an ongoing sexual relationship with and if a guy does find it, he dumb lucked into it. Is that what you are saying?


Not dumb luck, far from it. A very concerned effort involving lots of, ehem, candidates, time, effort, etc. 

If you live in NYC or something yea it's not too difficult. But if you live in Morgantown WV, good luck with that. 

Google Melani Robinson's one year of OLD at 50. Required reading material.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Livvie said:


> I hear you saying it's hard to find a woman to have an ongoing sexual relationship with and if a guy does find it, he dumb lucked into it. Is that what you are saying?


Not dumb luck, far from it. A very concerned effort involving lots of, ehem, candidates, time, effort, etc. 

If you live in NYC or something yea it's not too difficult. But if you live in Morgantown WV, good luck with that. 

Google Melani Robinson's one year of OLD at 50. Required reading material.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Never date coworkers.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Randy Lafever said:


> You don't quit your job in hopes you will win the lottery. You got really lucky that you found someone willing to have sex with you. Don't fool yourself into thinking it is likely you will find another one.
> 
> Now, I know what you're thinking. It's easy to find someone to have sex with you. Okay. The really hard part is finding one who will have sex with you a second time.
> 
> There are so few women in the world that might find you attractive. You dumb-lucked into one. Don't take it for granted.


Yes, yes, yes. This is exactly how I feel. I even said that to my wife when she said I would find an affair validating. That the "trick" isn't to talk a woman into your bed once, the hard part is finding someone who will have sex with you a second time. At least for some of us.

And yes, I realize you were being sarcastic.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> You mean probability? Nope. Even economists don’t know how they work.


Probability is more of a quantitative measure, i.e chance of rain is 30%. Possibility is more subtle, qualitative, and that's where it gets funny.

The chance  of meeting desired partner is partially a function of location and socioeconomic conditions. At age 25 you socialize a lot more than at 50, and so on.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> The chance  of meeting desired partner is partially a function of location and socioeconomic conditions. At age 25 you socialize a lot more than at 50, and so on.



Not if you work in a private bank/hedge fund at 25 and retire before 50!

And of course, you are much more likely to end up with a 25 year old at 50, than with a 50 year old at 25 



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## Randy Lafever (Jul 8, 2018)

Livvie said:


> I hear you saying it's hard to find a woman to have an ongoing sexual relationship with and if a guy does find it, he dumb lucked into it. Is that what you are saying?


Essentially. Men should appreciate the golden egg they get daily instead of killing the goose in the misguided hope they can have them all at once.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Randy Lafever said:


> Essentially. Men should appreciate the golden egg they get daily instead of killing the goose in the misguided hope they can have them all at once.


A scenario I am hearing more and more: *"My wife asked me if I ever thought about having an open marriage".* The woman is not stupid. She knows she can't just say, "I have another guy I'd like to boink without repercussions", so she says the magic phrase: *"You can have sex with other women now, too!"*

Guys are so infinitely stupid when it comes to sex and relationships that instead of thinking *"Uh oh, my wife is cheating/wants to cheat"* he thinks *"Sweet! Now I can go after that one cute girl at the gym that smiled at me that one time, that one hot 20-year-old cashier at the gas station, that one lady at work..." *

Delusional. His level of sexual conquest will never match that of his now-free wife.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Randy Lafever said:


> Essentially. Men should appreciate the golden egg they get daily instead of killing the goose in the misguided hope they can have them all at once.


Guys guys guys...i don't know you and I don't know your situations but you are painting an extremely bleak picture here for yourself. And maybe you can't see it but that kind of mentality is killer for your wifes attraction. *OF COURSE* you will be able to find someone else. Maybe not right this second or having the fantasy of walking into a bar and leaving with two hot blonds, but trust me with a little introspection and some roll-up-your-sleeves hard work you'll find someone again. Probably many someones. And you need many someones to find out what traits you are compatible with and who's the ideal match for you (and for her). So you can avoid the situation of winding up with someone who's your 'golden egg' that doesn't appreciate being that and isn't attracted to a man who thinks so little of himself. 

If anything is 'misguided' it's this insistence on placing your woman on a special pedestal. Sure it's easier for her to roll out of bed and find a warm body but if she's that type you're better off without anyhow. Finding a mutually satisfying LTR is just as hard for her as it is for you. Acting as though your world begins and ends with your wife is a sure way to absolutely kill her attraction for you. No one wants a sad desperate puppy dog following them around. That doesn't feel good or add validation for them. 

Your wife isn't your one-and-only 'soulmate' (no such thing) and there are many fish in the sea. Lighting such that it is can strike twice, or in this case all the time with the right attitude, effort and perspective.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

BigDigg said:


> Randy Lafever said:
> 
> 
> > Essentially. Men should appreciate the golden egg they get daily instead of killing the goose in the misguided hope they can have them all at once.
> ...


I can't tell you how many times on this forum men have been advising other men, when their first marriage doesn't work out, that it's okay: they will find a "younger, hotter" woman. Time after time it's discussed that for an older man, he is in the position to now get a younger, hotter woman than the previous wife was. Like, decade younger. So the sentiment on this thread is certainly different than what it usually is....


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Time after time it's discussed that for an older man, he is in the position to now get a younger, hotter woman than the previous wife was. Like, decade younger.


I don't have enough money for that :wink2:


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Time after time it's discussed that for an older man, he is in the position to now get a younger, hotter woman than the previous wife was. Like, decade younger.


Look forward to that now... :grin2:


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Livvie said:


> I can't tell you how many times on this forum men have been advising other men, when their first marriage doesn't work out, that it's okay: they will find a "younger, hotter" woman. Time after time it's discussed that for an older man, he is in the position to now get a younger, hotter woman than the previous wife was. Like, decade younger. So the sentiment on this thread is certainly different than what it usually is....


Yeah...certainly anecdotally that does and can happen for some men. How common? Who knows...but i'm guessing for those where that happens they are high quality men who work hard to be that way. But just to be clear that's not the fantasy i'm peddling here to these guys. What I'm saying is the vast majority of people out there can find love and happiness again if they seek it and put in the basic effort required. Maybe not decade younger perfect 10's, but someone well matched that will love them for who they are and what value they add.

Some of these posts from people like Randy (but he's not the only) just reek of such insecurity and self-loathing. Maybe it's chicken vs. egg and maybe years of emotional trauma and neglect have damaged them such that they can't see things clearly anymore. Or maybe they were like this to begin with and latched on to the first person that gave them the time of day, and viola you have a sexless miserable marriage without a hint of mutual respect. Either way though the first step is to really start to see things for how they are and how the world works and to not bury your head in the sand. To understand what value they bring and what drives (and kills) attraction. I think Blues has been pilloried here maybe for how his message comes out, but there's a lot of truths there. You simply can't be a desperate needy self-hating person (man or woman) and expect your SO to be attracted to you. You have to have self-respect and love for yourself first if there's to be any chance of your SO feeling the same. Think how you would feel if your SO grovelled at your feet and professed love out of desperation...that's not a healthy relationship dynamic for anyone...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BigDigg said:


> Some of these posts from people like Randy (but he's not the only) just reek of such insecurity and self-loathing. Maybe it's chicken vs. egg and maybe years of emotional trauma and neglect have damaged them such that they can't see things clearly anymore. Or maybe they were like this to begin with and latched on to the first person that gave them the time of day, and viola you have a sexless miserable marriage without a hint of mutual respect.


I don't have any scientific facts, but I think a lot depends on your younger years... when I was 18-20, I had a great time dating - casually and not casually. Sure, I was heart-broken once, but I enjoyed being chased a lot. The feeling of being wanted and desired when you are young is unbeatable. One night I was contended by two girls and... a boy! Not being gay, I chose one of the girls and had the night of my life (regretted not sleeping with both - but I didn't fancy one... :smile2. I know this sounds arrogant, but I had 4 fantastic years before I met my future wife. So, now that my marriage has gone south, I'm still a confident person... I know I have what it takes... :laugh:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The determining factor is not age by itself but, as my social sciences guy says, overall socioeconomic conditions. 

- location (Morgantown WV vs Chicago)
- social or activities group (rowing vs cosplay vs scca racing vs Bible study)
- time
- money
- flexibility with partner attributes
- willingness to try different things
- appearance
- projected attributes (wealth, health, education)
- desired partner attributes (age, education, wealth, health, religious, active, etc)

And outside such factors you may have:

- skeletons known or unknown
- chemistry

Once you adjust all these you may or may not find any fish or maybe plenty. 

By setting most attributes to DNC (do not care) and focusing on one it's a lot easier, but you may limit other attributes down the road...

Oh well. I thought I had identified the right candidate a couple years ago, were still good friends, but skeletons and chemistry absolutely sank it. She's a great eating / drinking buddy and an amazing intellectual person but.... Skeletons. Benghazi. You get the drift.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

john117 said:


> Probability is more of a quantitative measure, i.e chance of rain is 30%. Possibility is more subtle, qualitative, and that's where it gets funny.
> 
> The chance  of meeting desired partner is partially a function of location and socioeconomic conditions. At age 25 you socialize a lot more than at 50, and so on.


Can be yes, but not if one is fortunate to have good health and lives in a city, or travels.

I don't really cook, and meeting and conversing with folks just eating out when I sometimes do is a large pool, if I was single I'd fish and catch rather than close off certain conversations even now with the I'm very married statement we all need to have memorized. 
And I'm 55.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> The feeling of being wanted and desired when you are young is unbeatable.


Just in case you forgot, this feels good at any age...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Can be yes, but not if one is fortunate to have good health and lives in a city, or travels.
> 
> I don't really cook, and meeting and conversing with folks just eating out when I sometimes do is a large pool, if I was single I'd fish and catch rather than close off certain conversations even now with the I'm very married statement we all need to have memorized.
> And I'm 55.


It's a lot more complicated than this. Large groups don't necessarily lead into large numbers of prospects. Not at our age, at least, because of self selection. 

Age 20 in college, no brainer. 25 at work / bff's / etc, ditto. But at 55, it's a lot different unless one makes a career out of it it seems. 

I'll take the cat


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

And truly I'll take the dogs. Sadly last year we had to put both our Maltese to sleep, within 4 mos of each other
Had for 14 yrs. 

I'm for getting another.....W wants to wait a year.

We're rolling with her right now. Not a battle worth engaging..😉


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> It's a lot more complicated than this. Large groups don't necessarily lead into large numbers of prospects. Not at our age, at least, because of self selection.
> 
> Age 20 in college, no brainer. 25 at work / bff's / etc, ditto. But at 55, it's a lot different unless one makes a career out of it it seems.
> 
> I'll take the cat


Assuming you actually want to date (though I’m not positive of that), what have you actually tried so far in regards to meeting women? I don’t mean going to a group event where you didn’t see anyone interesting. I mean steps where you’ve actually tried specifically to meet someone or ask them out, OLD profile, etc.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I think some folks here are taking a very unneccesarily negative view of a person's opportunities in the dating/sex/relationships realm. 

I'm 54, shaved bald, no 6-pack (it's in there, you just can't see it LOL) average height, average looks, average income etc etc etc just a face in the crowd. 

Am I going to beat up Ashton Kutcher and take Mila Kunis from him and ride off into the sunset with her??

Of course not. 

But are there single, age-appropriate women out there that I may be able to hit it off with and stand a chance with?? Sure. Why wouldn't there be. 

Any guarantees of a lifetime of hot monkey sex 5 times a day and 10 on sundays for life? That's a stupid question. 

But remember we are talking about the backdrop of a sexless marriage where someone does not want to be with you and there is no reason to believe that will change. 

I'll Use @Inabsentia as a perfect example. Is he going to steal Mila Kunis from Ashton Kutcher?

Probably not. But his wife has declared their sex life null and void to is his face. Their sex life is over, it is done, he may be sad and bummed but he realizes that life is over. 

So why shouldn't he get out and date and hit on drunk chics and make offers to whoever trips his trigger and why should he believe that someone, somewhere at some point won't accept his offer?

And what does he really have to lose???? That his wife won't sleep with him?? She's already declared that so what does it matter anymore??

Will he find another true love and soul mate that will ride off in the sunset forever and ever and life will be a 24/7 real life porn flick for him? That may seem a little far fetched but why are some of you so negative and pessimistic about it? Why the doom and gloom?
What makes you think people won't/can't find love and attraction and desire at ANY age???

Will 50/60/70 year old men be riding off into the sunset forever with 20-something bikini models??? Why does that even need to be a standard and be a barometer of success. How about a round, 50 year old woman that shares the same interest in 80s music and movie trivia and likes to suck your #%@%? what's wrong with that?

Having a crippling fear of being alone and having an assumption of not being able to find love and compatibility again and thinking that women and love and desire are some mysterious, random force that only happens when someone hits some magical lottery is all part of what I was talking about in my list of traits and behaviors of men stuck in sexless relationships. That kind of thinking and mentality is part of the sexually challenged process. 


There is a term for guys that get polished up, go out and do fun things with fun people, take women out on dates, get to know them personally and interact with them on a meaningful interpersonal level, flirt with them, seduce them etc and that term is "sexually active" and I don't see where there is any real difference in that process between an 18 year old, a 25 year old, a 40 year old or a 55 year old or even an 80 year old?


Are their 80 year old getting down with the 22 year old bikini models?? Not unless they are shelling out wads of cash or putting them up in penthouse apartments and paying all their living expenses and college tuition; but there are likely some pretty randy 80 year olds getting some killer BJs by 70 years that can take out their dentures LOL :-O


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

john117 said:


> Age 20 in college, no brainer. 25 at work / bff's / etc, ditto. But at 55, it's a lot different unless one makes a career out of it it seems.


I could not disagree more. 

I think the general concepts and processes are exactly the same for a 20 year old college student as a 55 year old career man. 

The difference is the 20 year old college student is hooking up with college and possibly high school chicks and the 55 year old is hooking up with grown up career women and divorced women with kids. 

The audience, the age and life-stages and the tactics may change (a 55 year career man probably won't challenge a 45 year old career woman to a beer-bong drink-off but y'never know LOL) but the general process remains the same. 


It's a difference of degrees, not content.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My social sciences guy disagrees.

The natural state of a 20 to 25 years old is "available". If they aren't, there are reasons, generally harmless (already in a relationship, married, etc)

The 45 to 55 year old professional crowd is a bit of the opposite, at least based on my experience. Those that are "available" are so for a reason, and apart from "the love of my life was killed when an anvil fell on him" many of the reasons for the availability are potential caution flags. This applies equally to males and females.

It's a huge numbers game, and the deeper you drill the less hopeful it can get, because of dependencies.

Consider, for a second, my preference for very well educated women (MS / PhD / MD). Such women are likely to be in a challenging career path, and glass ceiling be damned, my experience with many such women is that either they get where they want to be and work their butts off - about that daily sex  - or, they're so pissed off that they haven't made it yet that you really don't want to be near them.

Now, if one's desired mate is the sex daily and get smashed at the local country and western bar on the weekend type, you're in business. But such cross correlations - ie sexual activity inversely proportional to education level - aren't very helpful.

The above is all based on 30 plus years of experience interacting with very highly educated individuals, men or women. In academia, it's a different story (wonder why ) but in a high stakes corporate environment, and equally high stakes wealthy suburb, these things are pretty valid.

I mean, dude, you going to hit on a PTO mom? Her executive husband makes twice what I do, and I make a lot. Is she going to risk losing it all for a romp in the hay with good ole' Dr John here?

Her husband may - and several neighbors have. But if you find a used to be executive wife now apartment dweller type, you can't help but wonder how it came to be.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> My social sciences guy disagrees.
> 
> The natural state of a 20 to 25 years old is "available". If they aren't, there are reasons, generally harmless (already in a relationship, married, etc)



I don’t get it: if the 25 year olds are available, why don’t you get yourself one of those??

I’m not sure you are right about the rest: I keep getting these informational emails about all the MILFs in my area who apparently all would really like to engage with me in one way or another. or both.

I’m sure it must be the same in your area too. 



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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I could not disagree more.
> 
> I think the general concepts and processes are exactly the same for a 20 year old college student as a 55 year old career man.
> 
> ...


Guys, @oldshirt is completely right about everything he is saying here. And at the risk of getting more **** from all the sexless guys... I just came out of this scene, that is how it is. 

In the last 5 years I have probable been with more women than most of you guys, and I said most, have been with in your entire life. Nice girls, from 35 to 60. 

One of them is my GF, and I got to tell you guys, she is a beauty. Just beautiful in every way. Has her own money, has her own job, her own retirement, loves me like no other women in my life. 

Just the best ever. Now I don't necessarily recommend everyone party like I have the last few year, but for a while I was running 3 girls at a time. It was fun for about a year, be that gets to really be work. 

You see, if you are decent looking, have a few bucks, decent in bed and not crazy, life is just great. 

I just don't understand all the negative view about life outside of a sexless marriage. 

Oh, and what is great, is to meet a girl from a sexless marriage. You really have to take your vitamins with those, they literally want to **** all or the time...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I don’t get it: if the 25 year olds are available, why don’t you get yourself one of those??
> 
> I’m not sure you are right about the rest: I keep getting these informational emails about all the MILFs in my area who apparently all would really like to engage with me in one way or another. or both.
> 
> ...


I'll apply for a faculty position then, plenty of 25 year old grad students ... 

All my emails are for Russian women, hmm. Been there done that.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> My social sciences guy disagrees.
> 
> The natural state of a 20 to 25 years old is "available". If they aren't, there are reasons, generally harmless (already in a relationship, married, etc)
> 
> ...


John all you said is true. And I get what you said about focusing on yourself. You are probably correct that if you just cruise on down the road livin’ your life, a lady will either eventually appear or she won’t, and you are good either way. I know you want “it all”, and we all do, whether we can possibly have “it all” or not. Some people will not date less than “it all” or at least a really close proximity of “it all”. Some people spend their energy on healthy self focused things and family and their cat, rather than hunting everywhere for Ms. Right.

I predict Ms. Right is going to find you. You won’t have to do a damn thing and one day she will just show up and whisk you off your feet. And she will have those attributes and lack of skeletons you require, no problem. And she’ll really get you and be into you.

I give it 5 years, tops,

And in the event this doesn’t happen by then and one day you are living in a (very lovely and full of smart residents) retirement home, and if you are sans girlfriend, wife, or lover....you’ll be the pick of the litter. Even if you don’t want any of them, they are gonna want you. That will be fun. Seen it happen several times now (and not in a gross old people way, in a romantic these people retired well and live near other well retirees who are still active, etc.) Hot single dude moves in, the ladies go frantic. 

Between now and then, your kids are going to bring you so much more happiness and joy (grandkids, and much more).


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

john117 said:


> My social sciences guy disagrees.
> 
> The natural state of a 20 to 25 years old is "available". If they aren't, there are reasons, generally harmless (already in a relationship, married, etc)
> 
> ...



That is just highlighting YOUR insecurities and your own negative self-talk and self-fulfilling prophecies. It doesn't change a single thing I said. 

My point is the process of finding love/getting dates/hooking up etc etc is fundamentally the same process at any life stage. You get out of the house and do things, meet people, interact with and get to know them, go on dates, make offers, hook up and potentially get into relationships/marriage etc. 

Doesn't matter if you are 18 or 81. 

All that gobbldeegook you are spouting is simply your own insecurities and "waa waa waa life is so hard because I'm sooo rich. booo hoo hoo." 


Get out and do things, meet people, ask chicks out on dates and make whatever offer you want. Either they'll go for it or they won't. If Chick A doesn't go for it, move on and ask Chick B and so on. That has worked for paupers and princes as well as 18-85 year olds. 


All the rest of that is just insecure dribble and making excuses to protect a fragile ego that derives it's own sense of self-work from it's financial spreadsheet. If you can't ask out a chick because her ex husband made a few more dollars on his profit sharing, that is your own personal hang up. 


I've f#[email protected] some of those wives right in front of their executive husbands back in my swinging days and not a one of us could've cared less what the other's pay check looked like. These are YOUR hang ups. They are not representative of reality.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ah, in 5 years I'll be umm, 63. Hopefully no grandkids quite yet, maybe a second cat. 

To some extent I get why - a lot of - women want out post menopause. 

Peace of mind.

You come home, kick out the shoes, and relax. Nobody to cook for, care for, clean for, work for...

You do the math and realize you're better off single. If you can pull it off financially. 

Peace of mind is a terrible thing to waste. I can crank up the stereo and listen to Flairck and nobody will complain. 

Yeah, it kinda sucks that things didn't work out. You see an awesomely preserved mature lady and wonder if she's in grandma mode, peace of mind mode, or nympho mode. 

Should you spin, buy a vowel, or solve the puzzle?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

"I've f#[email protected] some of those wives right in front of their executive husbands back in my swinging days and not a one of us could've cared less what the other's pay check looked like. These are YOUR hang ups. They are not representative of reality."

Swinging days... Lolz.

My friend, do you ever think before you write stuff like this? Of course they'll **** anything that moves. They / you are in swinging mode...

Somehow the upper brain seems to have abdicated a lot of the thinking. The whole point is committed relationships. If not, maybe I'll fill up the Mini Cooper, drive down to Nevada, spend a few thousand dollars and proclaim it a success. Or, save the gasoline, hook up on Craigslist with some down on her luck lady and be content. Or fly to Thailand. 

I'm glad your system works for you. Stop by an upscale neighborhood, hit on a few milfs using your patented techniques, and see how far you'll get.


----------



## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

*Oldshirt
I've f#[email protected] some of those wives right in front of their executive husbands back in my swinging days and not a one of us could've cared less what the other's pay check looked like.*

But swinging isn't the same as monogamous one on one, potentially long term relationship. Some men that get divorced gave up a lot of $$. Some eligible women also have $$. Some young people start out with little $$. Most older folks I know won't go for someone without a sufficient amount of $$, but that depends on the amount of $$ and the individual's other standards which become fairly rigid as they age.

I think it is easier for younger people to overlook financial ware-with-all but it is one topic older folks require in a new relationship from what I overhear.

I agree with having the courage to ask and be OK with any no's or not interested replies. Getting turned down isn't most people's cup of tea and it helps to develop a thick skin while also practicing appropriate civil standards.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

john117 said:


> I'm glad your system works for you. Stop by an upscale neighborhood, hit on a few milfs using your patented techniques, and see how far you'll get.


My techniques are not patented. They have been public domain since ancestral humans have walked upright. 

Thinking that certain types of people are somehow "different" is one of the things that keeps people trapped in their sexually challenged state. 

Thinking that your PhD executive is somehow fundamentally different than the Wal Mart cashier that is on the bowling league is what keeps you stuck in the rut. 

Degrees not content. Don't confuse different preference with different format. 

My average ERA would likely be somewhat similar whether I was hitting on MILFs in a Section 8 housing project, Mayberry RFD, suburban soccer development or gated, upscale executive community. Most will be a strike out, pop out or thrown out at first. Some will be a hit and every now and then a home run hit out of the ballpark. 


I don't want to imply that anything would be "easy" or that success for any one encounter will ever be guaranteed. I am saying the general process is the same. 

Most people you encounter whether it is at a monster truck rally or a $1000/plate charity fundraiser will not be a match. But the more you get out and meet and interact and get to know people and ask them out and make your move, the more your chances of success whether it is monster truck show or the fundraiser. 

Now I will grant you that people generally feel more comfortable and things fall into place more often within one's own socioeconomic group. I get that. And I also get that your preference is within a certain strata of education and economic status. And it is certainly true that the more specific set of criteria that you place on seeking a partner the more challenging that search will be. I get your point there. 

But to imply that people "can't" find love and sex and relationships out of their own social or economic strata is simply shortsighted and ignoring the world around you. It happens all the time.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm not sure everyone is into younger women. I know that for me 25 year olds look too much like kids. I summer interns, grad students etc around and they just seem to young for me for that sort of thing. Some young women are very pretty to look at, but once they start talking the maturity gap is just so huge. Maybe the old age/2+7 rule would apply for me

(not that I'm looking anyway, since I'm in a committed marriage).



inmyprime said:


> I don’t get it: if the 25 year olds are available, why don’t you get yourself one of those??
> 
> snip


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

"Thinking that certain types of people are somehow "different" is one of the things that keeps people trapped in their sexually challenged state. "

If people were "the same" I'd be out of a job... In some aspects they are, but intimacy is something we don't understand a whole lot of. I wonder if you ever read the Masters and Johnson book... or Kinsey's work. M&J got the mechanics right, and supposedly Kinsey got the frequencies right, but step over to my side of the building and we truly don't understand what's going on. Not only we aren't the same, but we aren't even the same ourselves consistently... Hence armies of MC's telling us the magic spells. 

You do bring up a good question tho. What brings you to this here forsaken forum full of sexual weaklings?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Handy said:


> *Oldshirt
> I've f#[email protected] some of those wives right in front of their executive husbands back in my swinging days and not a one of us could've cared less what the other's pay check looked like.*
> 
> But swinging isn't the same as monogamous one on one, potentially long term relationship. Some men that get divorced gave up a lot of $$. Some eligible women also have $$. Some young people start out with little $$. Most older folks I know won't go for someone without a sufficient amount of $$, but that depends on the amount of $$ and the individual's other standards which become fairly rigid as they age.
> ...


I get that. Everyone has their own preferences and standards and traits and characteristics in what they want and what they will accept in a partner. That is everyone's right. 

But how many people can we all name in our own lives that have said they are only interested in finding someone over 6ft tall, full head of hair, making $576,283,513 a year and drives a Ferrari to work and a Lamborgini to church and the next thing you know they are marrying a balding, 5'8" assistant manager of the shoe dept at Pennys? 

Or the guy that gloats on what a stud he is and will only entertain young, hot, bikini models and then he's marrying the portly, Plain Jane that works in the warehouse of the packing plant? 

We've all seen it. Many of us have done it. Love is often where we find and not necessarily where we wanted it to be.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> I get that. Everyone has their own preferences and standards and traits and characteristics in what they want and what they will accept in a partner. That is everyone's right.
> 
> But how many people can we all name in our own lives that have said they are only interested in finding someone over 6ft tall, full head of hair, making $576,283,513 a year and drives a Ferrari to work and a Lamborgini to church and the next thing you know they are marrying a balding, 5'8" assistant manager of the shoe dept at Pennys?
> 
> ...


Individuals may say one thing and do another.

Populations, that is, groups of people, tend to smooth out the wrinkles so if you pick 100 Ned Flanders types 1 will be married to a nympho and 99 to the Church Lady.

Because statistics . Which is what pays for the Lamborghini (meh I don't fit in the damned thing. Maybe a Quatroporte if I ever have money)


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

john117 said:


> "
> 
> If people were "the same" I'd be out of a job... In some aspects they are, but intimacy is something we don't understand a whole lot of. I wonder if you ever read the Masters and Johnson book... or Kinsey's work. M&J got the mechanics right, and supposedly Kinsey got the frequencies right, but step over to my side of the building and we truly don't understand what's going on. Not only we aren't the same, but we aren't even the same ourselves consistently... Hence armies of MC's telling us the magic spells.


Yes we all have our own individual sets of preferences and turn ons/turn offs, kinks, fetishes, goals, tolerances etc etc 

And I agree that a close, passionate, intimate relationship lasting decades is a special one indeed. 

But I want to reference @dadstartingover post # 124 of this thread in reference to the PUA movement in which socially awkward 'nerds' began to study and emulate the jocks and began to score themselves. 

That does a couple things. One is it shows that some paradigms and algorithms will tend to net results in those previously unable to connect. 

And it makes us all uncomfortable that we all really are as predictable and easily manipulated after all. 


Now yes, much of the PUA techniques and practices are geared more towards sex rather than LTRs but some of the concepts overlap. People often respond to various stimuli more similarly than what we are comfortable with. 


We may want to think we are all unique and perhaps even feel that we are somehow 'above' the masses...….. but in many ways we really aren't. 

And we may want to think that our special someone is somehow unigue onto us and is somehow different and impervious to the other options, opportunities and temptations out there...…. but they really aren't. 

Things may often seem very complex and difficult when we are the ones trying to crack the code. But when the code is cracked, it is often a fairly simple and fairly predictable set of combinations that actually unlocked it. 


I'd like to think it was my 10,000 unique set of traits and characteristics and special talents that attracted my wife to me and lead her to pick me over her long term BF at the time. 

But the reality is probably closer to the fact that I was taller, had a better job, was looking for serious relationship and made her a better offer and the fact that some other women who's opinion she valued convinced her that I would be a better bet. 

What was a seemingly complex and convoluted situation was actually born out of the plains of Africa and survival of fittest a million years ago.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> Just in case you forgot, this feels good at any age...


I haven't forgotten... my distant cousin's girlfriend was hitting on me the other day... beautiful and 23... a bit too young for me :grin2: - but it felt good to be appreciated in your '50s by a young and beautiful woman... :laugh:


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Regarding dating in your "older" age... I'm not planning to go wild or go to parties or anything like that, but I won't be sitting home watching Game of Thrones for the 352nd time... let's put it that way... :smile2:


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

john117 said:


> Ah, in 5 years I'll be umm, 63. Hopefully no grandkids quite yet, maybe a second cat.
> 
> To some extent I get why - a lot of - women want out post menopause.
> 
> ...


John, I get that you are super educated, and very smart. 

But brother you just have no idea what you are talking about, along with others. 

As I have already said, I am 54, my GF is 60 and post menopausal. Her sex drive is almost as high as mine. He equipment works GREAT. 

The one before that, 51, before that 50 , before that, 39, before that, I think 55, and on and on. 

As I have said before, if a woman loves you, none of the other stuff matters...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> John, I get that you are super educated, and very smart.
> 
> But brother you just have no idea what you are talking about, along with others.
> 
> ...


As I said, my friend.

Different priorities. And different relationship types.

To me, seeing Machu Picchu is more important than ****ing 24/7. Your mileage may vary .


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> But I want to reference @dadstartingover post # 124 of this thread in reference to the PUA movement in which socially awkward 'nerds' began to study and emulate the jocks and began to score themselves.
> 
> That does a couple things. One is it shows that some paradigms and algorithms will tend to net results in those previously unable to connect.
> 
> And it makes us all uncomfortable that we all really are as predictable and easily manipulated after all.


I don't know why but this post and some of the comments from others here remind me of chaos theory (stay with me - i'll *try* to explain). You have these guys like John etc. that are convinced that they are in some special circumstance where they can't win, can't find love, can't find someone they would be attracted to that would add value to their lives. You have others (yourself, Blues, myself etc.) that see it very differently - that they can't NOT succeed if they just learn the basic rules of the game and put themselves out there. To John et al this is like the first image and that's all they see - there's so much randomness there - it doesn't make much sense and seems intimidating and illogical. To others it's like the final image - what looks at close glance to be impossible and disorganized is actually quite organized and repeatable at the right scale.

So where I'm going with this - humans are inherently social creatures. Our default desired state (for most) is human/relationship attachment. So to go it alone is to really push against that desire. There are certain 'rules' to this game (like the chaos theory patterns if you will) that we all must understand and learn, but once we do so it's really just a matter of applying and practicing these at sufficient scale. Note: I'm not talking about PUA skills or game. I'm saying: have good hygiene, stay in decent physical shape, be somewhat tuned into basic styles/dress for your age/area, follow your passions and interests (and get outside your home to engage others with them), learn how to talk to others to put them at ease so you can showcase your personality. That's it really. Put yourself out there in this world like this and over time you'll find plenty of people worth getting to know. And if they are single and fairly well matched just know they probably want the same thing too - to find someone to share their life with.

Also know that while these 'patterns' apply to finding someone special, there are *different* patterns to keeping that special someone attracted and interested (oldshirts original post here summarizes some of that). These are just the basic rules to the game of life. To ignore them or to put your head in the sand on this or to disagree is just setting yourself up for pain. Again YMMV and every individual and relationship can be a little different, but if you look at the macro view on it it's actually quite simple. 

John - if you're in academia then you are surrounded by like minded interesting people. There's no shortage of local establishments and places to meet. No reason not to put yourself out there. Nothing wrong with having a nice glass of scotch and listening to some Flairck on an occasional Saturday night, but just know you're choosing to miss at the great things that are out there. It's just waiting for you.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> John, I get that you are super educated, and very smart.
> 
> But brother you just have no idea what you are talking about, along with others.
> 
> ...


That's a lot of gals. Yes, you're very good at finding broads who are happy to boink you. Not so good a finding one worth staying with.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That's a lot of gals. Yes, you're very good at finding broads who are happy to boink you. Not so good a finding one worth staying with.


Well, he kept trying to find a good one... but all he got was a lousy fun-filled sex life that seems to have left a permanent smile on his face. If only he had found the ONE that he would stick with that would drive him to post incessantly online about how much she doesn't want to have sex with him. Man, he really missed out.

Poor bastard.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> "I've f#[email protected] some of those wives right in front of their executive husbands back in my swinging days and not a one of us could've cared less what the other's pay check looked like. These are YOUR hang ups. They are not representative of reality."
> 
> Swinging days... Lolz.
> 
> ...


God, no kidding. I think something similar every time I read his posts. Like wtf are you even reading anyone else’s posts at all or do you just expect us all to read yours and exalt your weird life? Smh.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

dadstartingover said:


> Well, he kept trying to find a good one... but all he got was a lousy fun-filled sex life that seems to have left a permanent smile on his face. If only he had found the ONE that he would stick with that would drive him to post incessantly online about how much she doesn't want to have sex with him. Man, he really missed out.
> 
> Poor bastard.


I was just pointing out exactly what so many here have been saying... that everyone has their own goals and criteria. Trying to overlay yours on everyone else isn't really making a meaningful contribution. 

And, btw, the last time I checked, the banner at the top of the page says "Talk About Marriage," not "Talk about how many chicks you can nail."


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That's a lot of gals. Yes, you're very good at finding broads who are happy to boink you. Not so good a finding one worth staying with.


Which is what the point of this here website is... 

I'm not in academia any more by the way. But if the PUA's among us think academia is a free love commune, I suggest you reevaluate. The corporate world is about as tolerant, i.e. not very tolerant of even the slightest mischief.

Probably because of all the PUA's


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> God, no kidding. I think something similar every time I read his posts. Like wtf are you even reading anyone else’s posts at all or do you just expect us all to read yours and exalt your weird life? Smh.


Maybe they seek...


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## Randy Lafever (Jul 8, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> As I have already said, I am 54, my GF is 60 and post menopausal. Her sex drive is almost as high as mine. He equipment works GREAT.
> 
> The one before that, 51, before that 50 , before that, 39, before that, I think 55, and on and on.


I mean, if you're desperate enough to go after women in their fifties, yeah, it's going to be easier.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That's a lot of gals. Yes, you're very good at finding broads who are happy to boink you. Not so good a finding one worth staying with.


You know @Rocky Mountain Yeti, I did not respond to your last post. You make it clear that you think I am full of ****, which is fine. 

And you are allowed, like everyone else here, to post whatever you want. I was not really going to post anything directly related to you because it just seemed to piss you off. 

But now I will say this, how is your long term mostly sexless marriage working out for you? 

For what it is worth, that list, are the ones that are most recent and the ones that I can sort of remember their ages. Frankly, there are many, many more. 

And as far as my long term relationship, we are going to have our 1 year anniversary this week end. If everything including sex continues as it is, she will retire and move in with me next year. 

May work out, may not. I am willing to see what happens. I have not really said this yet, but we plan on getting married at some point in the next couple of years, complete with a prenup so that both of our assets are protected for our kids should something go wrong. I don't think it will, but you never know. 

As far as sex, lots of sex last weekend, in spite of grand babysitting duties. Stayed at hers last night, made love last night as well. Made love this morning, but did not have time for round two because we had to go to work. That will happen tonight. 

So, I am actually just doing great, thanks for asking...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> You know @Rocky Mountain Yeti, I did not respond to your last post. You make it clear that you think I am full of ****, which is fine.
> 
> And you are allowed, like everyone else here, to post whatever you want. I was not really going to post anything directly related to you because it just seemed to piss you off.
> 
> ...


Not full of ****. Just different. Which was my point. 

But with each repeated, obsessive need to proclaim in every post how much your latest lay is laying, it looks more and more like you're compensating for something. Hope your plan comes to fruition. Your track record would certainly indicate otherwise.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Not full of ****. Just different. Which was my point.
> 
> But with each repeated, obsessive need to proclaim in every post how much your latest lay is laying, it looks more and more like you're compensating for something. Hope your plan comes to fruition. Your track record would certainly indicate otherwise.


No not at all, I just think that it is silly to argue with you. You have your point of view and have mine, which I personally have not problem with. 

So why do we agree to disagree and go after each other???


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> Regarding dating in your "older" age... I'm not planning to go wild or go to parties or anything like that, but I won't be sitting home watching Game of Thrones for the 352nd time... let's put it that way... :smile2:


That is a very worthy goal.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Randy Lafever said:


> I mean, if you're desperate enough to go after women in their fifties, yeah, it's going to be easier.


Ouch. That's a very unkind thing to write.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Uhhhh...... Weird turns in this winding thread?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> No not at all, I just think that it is silly to argue with you. You have your point of view and have mine, which I personally have not problem with.
> 
> So why do we agree to disagree and go after each other???


The thing is, we agree a lot more than you seem to think. I have agreed fully that those who stay are in a situation of their own making. That seems to be a core theme of yours and I'm fully on board with that. 

The thing I disagree with is your assertion that anyone who stays is weak. True commitment is not for sissies. Your problem is the pejorative putdowns that guys who stay do so out of fear or inadequacies or lack of confidence. Some of us have more to offer than most, in every area, and we know it. So we're not bailing on our current situations out of either weakness or fear. That's not a "point of view," that's fact.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Randy Lafever said:


> I mean, if you're desperate enough to go after women in their fifties, yeah, it's going to be easier.


Umm, Mrs. Conan is 58 and has a petite plaboy bunny 🐰 body that causes erections in more males than just this barbarian.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

minimalME said:


> Ouch. That's a very unkind thing to write.


Besides there being very desirable women in that age group!:grin2:


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Uhhhh...... Weird turns in this winding thread?


I know right??? Had no clue i was participating in a thread with a bunch of senior citizens :grin2:


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Uhhhh...... Weird turns in this winding thread?


But still somewhat on task. Nothing like the threads that start off with the topic about sports cars and then end up turning into Civil War and stories about pretending not to have orgasms :grin2:


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Randy Lafever said:


> BluesPower said:
> 
> 
> > As I have already said, I am 54, my GF is 60 and post menopausal. Her sex drive is almost as high as mine. He equipment works GREAT.
> ...


Wow. So your whole life you are going to be with women under 50, or you will label yourself desperate, right?

A part of me sees comments like this from men and for a brief moment it makes me completely understand the women who are 50 and beyond and not into providing much sex to their partners. Because if women over 50 are going to be labelled as so undesirable by men, why bother connecting with men, right? YUCK. Those men can go **** themselves.

Have fun in your 50s, 60s and 70s trying to score only young women... under 50.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The thing is, we agree a lot more than you seem to think. I have agreed fully that those who stay are in a situation of their own making. That seems to be a core theme of yours and I'm fully on board with that.
> 
> The thing I disagree with is your assertion that anyone who stays is weak. True commitment is not for sissies. Your problem is the pejorative putdowns that guys who stay do so out of fear or inadequacies or lack of confidence. Some of us have more to offer than most, in every area, and we know it. So we're not bailing on our current situations out of either weakness or fear. That's not a "point of view," that's fact.


What you don't seem to understand it this, and I may not have written this on this site so that is my bad I guess, but I was marred for 26 years. I won't go into all the gory details but here are the basics. 

I raised 3 kids, almost completely alone, took care of my "Sick" wife, was the sole bread winner, chief cook and bottle washer, the whole entire deal. I believed in a lot of the things that you do. 

I believed marriage was forever, I believed a man did whatever he had to do to keep his family together, I believed that you stayed no matter what. I often write when I write about infidelity that there are worse things that someone can DO to you than that, as bad as it is. 

While it is a super long story, turns out that my wife was not sick, she was a drug addict, and kept it hidden for the last ~15 to 20 years of our marriage. More over, I am not sure that she ever really loved me, now, just saw me as a guy to have kids with, **** her, and take care of her. Finally, when I had a stroke from all the stress, I started to get some clarity and figure out what was really going on.

So I have done my time. I finally divorced her when after she got sober, she could not really understand why I could not get over the fact that she lied to me for 20 years. I mean, she was sober now, why are you mad?

So, as I said, I have done my time. I was stupid for staying with this woman, granted she kept her drug use hidden, and yes it can be done, so I could not really figure out what was going on. 

And more importantly, I was weak for staying even though I had good reasons for it at the time, in my mind, it turned out, I was wrong.

It may be interesting that she now lives in a crappy rent house, and is barely making ends meet, even with the money I pay her. 

It also may be interesting to know, that all three of my kids are in collage, doing well, and they pay for their own education through scholarships and money inherited from their grand mothers and working. Both of my sons, are nationally know musicians, and one of them is on an east coast tour with a particular band. That one is not in collage this year as he is touring. 

While the marriage sucked, thank goodness it was not sexless or maybe not. I could have figured out things faster if she did not want to have sex with me, I would have been better off. 

So @Rocky Mountain Yeti, I am not just some playboy alpha male jerk, I have been around, I have had hard times I have had good times. I have toured the country playing music, I have raised children. 

And yet, my values have changed. I value my happiness now, I spent a life time taking care of others, some that did not appreciate it. 

Yes I have spent a lot of time chasing women, I like them, I also like sex. But it is not all about one thing. I do not believe in sexless relationships, even though it would have saved me years of my life if it had happened to me. 

Maybe some of this explains my hard stance on things, maybe not. 

I am who I am, I like me and where I am at in life, and I am not completely concerned what anyone else thinks...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> What you don't seem to understand it this, and I may not have written this on this site so that is my bad I guess, but I was marred for 26 years. I won't go into all the gory details but here are the basics.
> 
> I raised 3 kids, almost completely alone, took care of my "Sick" wife, was the sole bread winner, chief cook and bottle washer, the whole entire deal. I believed in a lot of the things that you do.
> 
> ...



And yet you put an awful lot of effort into not only telling the world what you think, but also why they are inferior if they don't automatically bow down to the benefits of your particular experience.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That's a lot of gals. Yes, you're very good at finding broads who are happy to boink you. Not so good a finding one worth staying with.


That is called having options. 

It's harder for guys to find a lot of broads that are happy to boink him than it is to find a woman who will want to be in a relationship but not necessarily want to have sex with him. 

Almost any guy can get a GF and have a relationship if he is willing to settle for a dismal sex life. Any guy can have a woman around the house and any guy can have a woman to watch Grey's Anatomy with and any guy can have a woman to do housekeeping chores and run errands with and virtually any man can move a woman and her kids into his house if he puts a roof over their heads and food on the table and can pick kids up from school. 

But not all guys can have a good sex life. 

It's simply easier for men to get relationships than it is to get sex. 

So iIf a guy can boink a lot of broads (i'm using your terms and lingo here) then he has options to choose from and if he wants to have an ongoing relationship with one, he pick which one he wants out of the pool of women that are sexually into him instead of settling for a woman that agrees to have a relationship with him but may not necessarily be sexually attracted to him. 

And that is exactly what Blues has done. He picked the one that he liked best out of the pool of women that were into him sexually and now he is in a relationship with a gal that is laying him like tile daily.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> That is called having options.
> 
> It's harder for guys to find a lot of broads that are happy to boink him than it is to find a woman who will want to be in a relationship but not necessarily want to have sex with him.
> 
> ...


What a crock. Getting sex is easy these days. 

He's "picked the one that he liked best" ... for the moment. He's had apparently dozens and none of them have stuck. It'd be silly to think "this is the one" until enough water has gone under the bridge to verify this.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Randy Lafever said:


> I mean, if you're desperate enough to go after women in their fifties, yeah, it's going to be easier.


Son, you can only hope and pray that some day you can get a taste of what being with a hottie in her 50s can be like ;-)

If you ever get there and survive it, you can come back and we'll let you take those words back and chalk it up to your youth and inexperience not knowing any better.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> And yet you put an awful lot of effort into not only telling the world what you think, but also why they are inferior if they don't automatically bow down to the benefits of your particular experience.


Ok, thanks, please go away now... you win, you are right about everything...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> Ok, thanks, please go away now... you win, you are right about everything...


Funny,
I was able to refrain from saying the exact same thing to you...


----------



## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

This post right now. Time to lighten up folks!


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Responses in bold below




Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> What a crock. Getting sex is easy these days.
> 
> *pre and extra marital sex is more socially acceptable today that in years past so in that sense it is "easier" than it was before.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Responses in bold below


What a crock. Getting sex is easy these days. 

pre and extra marital sex is more socially acceptable today that in years past so in that sense it is "easier" than it was before. 

But it is still easier for most common men to obtain relationships than it is NSA sex. 

That depends on how you define "relationship." Finding a meaningful relationship is rather rare. 

He's "picked the one that he liked best" ... for the moment. 

All any of us really have is the moment. Would you rather someone brought down a stone tablet from the mountain that says it will be permanent before he met her? That would be nice if we could all be given guarantees before our first date. That is what traditional societies that still practice arranged marriage try to do. 

Moments build upon each other into something bigger than just the moment. For some. Which has been my point all along. Some are good with going from moment to moment, ready to abandon and move on at a moments notice. That's cool for them. It's not cool for everyone.

He's had apparently dozens and none of them have stuck. 

But do you know why they didn't stick?? Are you assuming they didn't like him and so they dumped him?? 

Or might it be that they weren't living up to his standards and since he had a pool of other options to choose from that he picked his current lady instead?

Options are good. It's good to have options. 

I haven't assumed anything. According to him, he regularly dumps them for not meeting his standards and I have no reason to question that, so I have no idea why you might suggest I might assume they dumped him. My point is agnostic as to who dumped whom. Either it lasts or it doesn't. In his case, it doesn't. Which, again, is cool for him. I'm glad he has a path that works for him. 

It'd be silly to think "this is the one" until enough water has gone under the bridge to verify this.

As long as he isn't giving her money, putting her name on all of his accounts and property and signing all his assets over to her, does it really matter if it doesn't work out?? 

The man is happy and he's getting laid like tile. Does it really matter if this isn't coming with a written guarantee from God to last forever? 

If she runs off tomorrow, he can pick another from the pool or go out and get another. 

"Teach a man to fish, he can feed himself for life."

- Jesus


Blues knows how to fish. He'll be fine if this particular one doesn't work out for 50 years. 

Of course. I've never suggested otherwise. Again, my only point is that that's his criterion. For some, they'd prefer a lasting relationship, even if it isn't perfect.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

What some guys don’t seem to understand, is that you can be a guy who could easily find lots of women who eagerly want to boink you, yet still choose not to. Some men don’t want to just boink whoever is willing, be they hotties or not. Some men want to experience sex only within a loving relationship. They have plenty of options and make a choice that reflects what they want. 

Not making the choice to boink all or many or even some of the hotties doesn’t mean he is not an alpha, doesn’t mean he is not a highly sexual person, and doesn’t mean he is weak, lacks confidence or whatever. It is a choice people make. A preference in sexual proclivities. 

It is not a character defect for the man who has options to not take them.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> What some guys don’t seem to understand, is that you can be a guy who could easily find lots of women who eagerly want to boink you, yet still choose not to. Some men don’t want to just boink whoever is willing, be they hotties or not. Some men want to experience sex only within a loving relationship. They have plenty of options and make a choice that reflects what they want.
> 
> Not making the choice to boink all or many or even some of the hotties doesn’t mean he is not an alpha, doesn’t mean he is not a highly sexual person, and doesn’t mean he is weak, lacks confidence or whatever. It is a choice people make. A preference in sexual proclivities.
> 
> It is not a character defect for the man who has options to not take them.


This this and this


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> What some guys don’t seem to understand, is that you can be a guy who could easily find lots of women who eagerly want to boink you, yet still choose not to. Some men don’t want to just boink whoever is willing, be they hotties or not. Some men want to experience sex only within a loving relationship. They have plenty of options and make a choice that reflects what they want.
> 
> Not making the choice to boink all or many or even some of the hotties doesn’t mean he is not an alpha, doesn’t mean he is not a highly sexual person, and doesn’t mean he is weak, lacks confidence or whatever. It is a choice people make. A preference in sexual proclivities.
> 
> It is not a character defect for the man who has options to not take them.


I think everyone does understand that and I think what you are describing is actually quite universal in normal, healthy people. 

There are 'playa's' in the world, but the true players that are hitting the bars picking up drunk chicks night after night are the outliers and in reality make up a very tiny segment of the male population. 

Even the so-called PUAs once they learn to relate to someone may pick up a chick or two and then one will stick. 

Blues is recently divorced and it is not uncommon at all for recently divorced women and men alike to enjoy their freedom for a while and make a few notches on their bedpost until one comes along that sticks. 

The vast majority of normal, healthy people are going to want a full-service, LTR or marriage rather than just a series of hook ups. I think we can all agree on that. 

Where I was going with my earlier post is just about any man can have a relationship with a woman if he is willing to sacrifice the sexuality or settle for an unsatisfying sex life. It is harder for the common man to get NSA sex than a sexless relationship/marriage. 

And additionally, a man that can readily get NSA sex can usually get a relationship very easily if he wants one.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> Son, you can only hope and pray that some day you can get a taste of what being with a hottie in her 50s can be like ;-)
> 
> If you ever get there and survive it, you can come back and we'll let you take those words back and chalk it up to your youth and inexperience not knowing any better.


Yup.

Mrs. Conan reached over and felt the morning steel today and quickly jumped on it! 

She literally ****ed me until my legs were shaking and after we were done, I almost couldn't get ready for work!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> What a crock. Getting sex is easy these days.


I'm not trying to get digs on you or anything - but you do see the irony of you making this statement right? :-D


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I'm not trying to get digs on you or anything - but you do see the irony of you making this statement right? :-D


No, not at all. 
I have frequently been propositioned even when not even looking for it. Just because my wife doesn't desire the frequency I do, doesn't mean it isn't more readily available elsewhere. Were I of a mind to rationalize infidelity based on a sexual mismatch, I would want for nothing in the sex department. 

No irony whatsoever.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> No, not at all.
> I have frequently been propositioned even when not even looking for it. Just because my wife doesn't desire the frequency I do, doesn't mean it isn't more readily available elsewhere. Were I of a mind to rationalize infidelity based on a sexual mismatch, I would want for nothing in the sex department.
> 
> No irony whatsoever.


OK fair enough, point taken and I have no doubt that what you say is spot-on. You do seem to me to be a good man and I have no doubt that many golden opportunities would await you out there should you decide to go there. 

But that does not detract from my assertion that it is easier for most men to obtain relationships than sex. I don't question that you may have a variety of sexual opportunities out there, but I will also assume that for every sexual opportunity you have, you will have many more relationship opportunities but where the sexuality may be someone lackluster (as what you are already experiencing)

And it also further illustrates that not dissolving an unsatisfactory sexual relationship when other opportunities exist is a common factor in people (I'm talking general and not addressing you specifically) being involuntarily celibate or at least very unsatisfied and frustrated. 


I realize there is a lot of emotional, moral, ethical, financial and social issues at play that make dissolving relationships and marriages a minefield for many people. But the fact remains that reluctance or refusal to dissolve a current relationship is a major factor in many people being sexually frustrated or even involuntarily celibate. 

I'm not assigning blame or value or saying one is right or wrong or saying one is weak or strong. Just stating objective fact.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Some young women are very pretty to look at, but once they start talking the maturity gap is just so huge.




Why do you need to talk to them? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> As I said, my friend.
> 
> Different priorities. And different relationship types.
> 
> To me, seeing Machu Picchu is more important than ****ing 24/7. Your mileage may vary .



Why not **** in Machu Picchu? I don’t understand why there has to be a choice?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> OK fair enough, point taken and I have no doubt that what you say is spot-on. You do seem to me to be a good man and I have no doubt that many golden opportunities would await you out there should you decide to go there.
> 
> But that does not detract from my assertion that it is easier for most men to obtain relationships than sex. I don't question that you may have a variety of sexual opportunities out there, but I will also assume that for every sexual opportunity you have, you will have many more relationship opportunities but where the sexuality may be someone lackluster (as what you are already experiencing)
> 
> ...


I can't say I agree, for two reasons.
I'm sure some of the propositions I received were not looking for any kind of a relationship. 

Also, i go back to what I said earlier... it all depends on where you set the bar for something to qualify as a relationship. I'm not sure I have all that many opportunities for what I would consider a worthwhile relationship. I have lots of friends to hang out with, but that is not a "relationship" in the sense we're speaking of here. 

Indeed, it seems correct that not dissolving a relationship over an unsatisfactory sex life is pretty common. And there's no denying that it is a source of frustration for many. 

But I have to be clear about one thing that may at leas help account for my (in)action in this regard. Not a one of the propositions I received do I think would make for a better overall relationship than the one I have, for a wide variety of reasons. So saying a better sexual relationship awaits is not the same thing as saying a better relationship awaits.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Why not **** in Machu Picchu? I don’t understand why there has to be a choice?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll make sure to add it to my Tinder profile...


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm really perfectly happy to let this thread die a long overdue death but I saw these two posts . . . . .



oldshirt said:


> -snip-It's harder for guys to find a lot of broads that are happy to boink him than it is to find a woman who will want to be in a relationship but not necessarily want to have sex with him. -snip-


I've never met a woman who wanted to start an intimate emotional long term relationship, that denied wanting sex as part of the relationship. On the other hand there are plenty of women out there in many marital states who are perfectly willing to share an occasional joke, snack, beveridge, flat tire repair . . . who are not interested in sex, or who are also interested in sex. It really depends on what you mean by "relationship".




oldshirt said:


> Son, you can *only hope and pray* that some day you can get a taste of what being with a hottie in her 50s can be like ;-)
> 
> -snip-.


That is exactly the problem here all we can do is hope and pray.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Why not **** in Machu Picchu? I don’t understand why there has to be a choice?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree with this completely and I think this may be part of the disconnect between the two camps that Blues has mentioned before. 

I would not have as much interest in world travel or visiting exotic and interesting places if I was not getting down while there. Why would I want to go somewhere exotic and fabulous if I was not having sex there?? 

In other threads Uhtred has spoke of his travels to wonderful locations and exotic vacations and travels with his wife; but yet she does not want to have sex with him there. 

All I can think of is WTHF??????? :-O

Going to those places is great. But wouldn't you rather score while you are there?????

I would never ever in 15 million billion trillion zillion years shell out the money and tickets and expense and hassle to take a woman to some exotic location if getting hot and sweaty and naked was not at the top of the list of things to do. No way, no how. 

I just don't get it. It does not compute. 

To me that is one of the things that really illustrates the difference between the haves and the have nots. 

The have nots think that is ok. The Haves wouldn't even occur to them.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I agree with this completely and I think this may be part of the disconnect between the two camps that Blues has mentioned before.
> 
> I would not have as much interest in world travel or visiting exotic and interesting places if I was not getting down while there. Why would I want to go somewhere exotic and fabulous if I was not having sex there??
> 
> ...


90% awesome... then the hamster falls out of the wheel right at the end. 

Have nots DO NOT think this is okay. Exotic locations should lead to exotic behavior.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Haves and have nots...

Scary.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Uhhhh...... Weird turns in this winding thread?




Yeah I can’t tell whether I prefer the feminist threads or the **** measuring contest threads....hmmm....so much choice! It’s like standing in front of an ice cream truck.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

"exotic behavior", what a way to start the long weekend. Now I'll have that stuck in my head for 4 days.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

john117 said:


> Haves and have nots...
> 
> Scary.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> 90% awesome... then the hamster falls out of the wheel right at the end.
> 
> Have nots DO NOT think this is okay. Exotic locations should lead to exotic behavior.


OK, I will concede that point and say you are right and that I stand corrected. 

And frankly I am glad to hear someone say that is not ok! 

Now if these guy would just stand up and say it's not ok to go to exotic locations to simply enjoy the scenery and food to their wives...……………….


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Son, you can only hope and pray that some day you can get a taste of what being with a hottie in her 50s can be like ;-)



My mum generally agrees with that 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's just another manifestation of good ole' "my XYZ is bigger than yours". Life goes on. At the end of the day what matters is how people will remember you. 

It does make one take notice that women are objectified in such a way, where all that matters is the almighty penetration. As the supervisor of several young employees and interns, and a parent of two girls I have seen a few harebrained choices, but for the most part they seem to be doing well. Even a few single by choice older guys in my team aren't the skirt chasing types. 

Rust belt family values I suppose.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

john117 said:


> It's just another manifestation of good ole' "my XYZ is bigger than yours". Life goes on. At the end of the day what matters is how people will remember you.


If that's true, then I'm destined for some kind of hall of fame.

That is if I can keep from going entirely off the rails from this point forward which is by no means assured...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

As one of the have nots, I definitely do not agree that it is pleasant to go to exotic locales and not have sex with my wife. In fact, I have stopped going to exotic locales with my wife precisely because it is painful for me to be there and not have sex. So I go to exotic locales alone, and she goes with our kids, her mother, a girlfriend, etc. She keeps thinking that when I retire, we will go to exotic locales together. She is as delusional as I was when I thought that with enough MC, exercising, increasing my income, etc., that we would enjoy a mutually fulfilling sex life.

It is NOT OK. Not. Not. Not. Not. Not.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm content to visit the exotic land of Jungle Jim's in Cincinnati, Ohio... Especially the liquor section. Maybe I won't find love, but they have several spirits and many delicacies from my birth country and other exotic or not so exotic locales. 

http://junglejims.com/

(For the uninitiated - it's a grocery store the size of a couple Walmarts that has food and spirits from every corner of the world. Sorted by country. Amish and local produce, and better prices than anything around).


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> I'm content to visit the exotic land of Jungle Jim's in Cincinnati, Ohio... Especially the liquor section. Maybe I won't find love, but they have several spirits and many delicacies from my birth country and other exotic or not so exotic locales.
> 
> Home - Jungle Jim's International Market
> 
> (For the uninitiated - it's a grocery store the size of a couple Walmarts that has food and spirits from every corner of the world. Sorted by country. Amish and local produce, and better prices than anything around).


Wow that place looks awesome!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

john117 said:


> I'm content to visit the exotic land of Jungle Jim's in Cincinnati, Ohio... Especially the liquor section. Maybe I won't find love, but they have several spirits and many delicacies from my birth country and other exotic or not so exotic locales.
> 
> Home - Jungle Jim's International Market
> 
> (For the uninitiated - it's a grocery store the size of a couple Walmarts that has food and spirits from every corner of the world. Sorted by country. Amish and local produce, and better prices than anything around).


I had a good time shopping there when I passed through. Got some too hot pickles though!


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

BluesPower I just read your post #303 and have more respect for you because it shows you were not a player but wanted to find someone compatible.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

As always, lots of variation, but for me physical appearance isn't completely correlated with how much I want to have sex with someone. I'd much prefer a modestly attractive woman who was exciting in and out of bed to a super-attractive woman who was very generic in what she liked for sex, and was dull to talk to. 



inmyprime said:


> Why do you need to talk to them?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> She keeps thinking that when I retire, we will go to exotic locales together.


Funny you say that... when, some months ago, I told my wife I would like to spend more time in my birth country from next year, she said we could get a house together... really? I thought: you are indeed completely mad. And what about the dog you really really wanted? Where is he going? Then, a few days after that, she dropped the sexless bomb.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I don't really care about having sex every 5 minutes. A couple of times a week would do me. But I really need to like the person, physically _and_ mentally. And that was my wife. We've been together since university. And that's why I was prepared to wait two weeks for an "encounter". Sadly, even that was too much... :laugh:


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> I don't really care about having sex every 5 minutes. A couple of times a week would do me. But I really need to like the person, physically _and_ mentally. And that was my wife. We've been together since university. And that's why I was prepared to wait two weeks for an "encounter". Sadly, even that was too much... <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_smile_big.png" border="0" alt="" title="Laugh" ></a>


I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm trying to understand. Your wife has not really been interested in you romantically/physically/intimately for a long while, you say. This being the case, how were you so much in like with her? It's my understanding that there needs to be mutuality for a great connection and desire for someone. For instance, if a man/long term partner isn't much into me, I can't be very keen on him.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I'm trying to figure out what the goal is of this thread. Is it just to get all the "beta" men to hang their head and say:

You're right. You're better than me. I suck.

I mean, really, what the heck is the goal here?

And how alpha can one actually BE if they NEED to make sure an entire subset of men feel like crap? Sounds like a junior high mean girl to me.


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## Randy Lafever (Jul 8, 2018)

Livvie said:


> Wow. So your whole life you are going to be with women under 50, or you will label yourself desperate, right?
> 
> A part of me sees comments like this from men and for a brief moment it makes me completely understand the women who are 50 and beyond and not into providing much sex to their partners. Because if women over 50 are going to be labelled as so undesirable by men, why bother connecting with men, right? YUCK. Those men can go **** themselves.
> 
> Have fun in your 50s, 60s and 70s trying to score only young women... under 50.


I would never in a million years expect to still be sexually active at the age of 50. My wife will be 43 at that point and well past her childbearing window. Not to mention I am sure erectile dysfunction sets in before fifty.

It will be nice to be rid of the entire business for the first time since I was twelve.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Randy Lafever said:


> I would never in a million years expect to still be sexually active at the age of 50. My wife will be 43 at that point and well past her childbearing window. Not to mention I am sure erectile dysfunction sets in before fifty.
> 
> It will be nice to be rid of the entire business for the first time since I was twelve.


You know better than us whether your wife will want to, and be willing to, after that age (although she may surprise you...different women react to life changes in different ways).

And I can understand the motivation to just not want to have to deal with it any more.

But I can can tell you definitively, that erectile disfunction by 50 is most definitely not a given. You may surprise yourself as well.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Livvie said:


> I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm trying to understand. Your wife has not really been interested in you romantically/physically/intimately for a long while, you say. This being the case, how were you so much in like with her? It's my understanding that there needs to be mutuality for a great connection and desire for someone. For instance, if a man/long term partner isn't much into me, I can't be very keen on him.


The no sex revelation dates back to last month, so not long ago. We did have sex before that, although not very often. I suppose I'm still grieving...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> But I can can tell you definitively, that erectile disfunction by 50 is most definitely not a given. You may surprise yourself as well.


I'm 55... not sign of it... at all... :grin2:


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## Randy Lafever (Jul 8, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> You know better than us whether your wife will want to, and be willing to, after that age (although she may surprise you...different women react to life changes in different ways).


I'm hoping it tapers off soon. I have been pretty adamant I don't want any more kids. She's in her late 20s and I'm expecting the lack of procreative attempts plus declining libido will do the trick.



> But I can can tell you definitively, that erectile disfunction by 50 is most definitely not a given. You may surprise yourself as well.


Can you at least reassure me that the constant random erections go away? I walk ten to twelve miles a day at work and it is really uncomfortable to spend half of it that way.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Hell no to not being sexually active after 50. It may be different than 25 years ago but it ain't stopping. 

We are a long way from the nursing home but have discussed the need to be more quiet once we get there. The fear is real as without kids we've always had to place to ourselves.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Randy Lafever said:


> Can you at least reassure me that the constant random erections go away? I walk ten to twelve miles a day at work and it is really uncomfortable to spend half of it that way.


I can offer no such reassurance. Nor would I want to.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CharlieParker said:


> Hell no to not being sexually active after 50. It may be different than 25 years ago but it ain't stopping.
> 
> We are a long way from the nursing home but have discussed the need to be more quiet once we get there. The fear is real as without kids we've always had to place to ourselves.


Forget that quiet stuff. Wouldn't hurt the rest of the old folks to know what's possible. Hell, run a mic in there and hook it up to the intercom.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Randy Lafever said:


> I would never in a million years expect to still be sexually active at the age of 50. My wife will be 43 at that point and well past her childbearing window. Not to mention I am sure erectile dysfunction sets in before fifty.
> 
> It will be nice to be rid of the entire business for the first time since I was twelve.


Wow you haven't a clue. Many couples have sex into their 80's. We are in our early 60s and have regular sex.


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## Tony Conrad (Oct 7, 2013)

I agree. Sex goes on forever. I am even older than you and have got more imaginitive as I get older. DW still orgasms every time. I can go two or three weeks without sex but it is in my mind. I am amazed how new it can be. The physical touch and intimacy are very important in a marriage.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Randy Lafever said:


> I'm hoping it tapers off soon. I have been pretty adamant I don't want any more kids. She's in her late 20s and I'm expecting the lack of procreative attempts plus declining libido will do the trick.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you at least reassure me that the constant random erections go away? I walk ten to twelve miles a day at work and it is really uncomfortable to spend half of it that way.


Shizz.
It sounds like you are willing yourself to have ED.

Isn't sex a good and positive thing for you and W? Why would you want this type of intimacy with W to disappear?

Each to their own, you certainly don't need anyone else to approve of your opinions, respectively I'm just asking because I don't understand. 

Peace,


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Shizz.
> It sounds like you are willing yourself to have ED.
> 
> Isn't sex a good and positive thing for you and W? Why would you want this type of intimacy with W to disappear?
> ...


I'm puzzled too... :smile2:


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Based on this thread it appears that men are the only ones who have sexless or near sexless wives and are not getting enough. What happens when it is the wife, should I also run off and get someone else (based on majority of advice here?). My H was always a very highly sexual guy, right up to mid 40s. He started having ED problems mid 40s, probably due to his high usage of alcohol, our marriage problems, work stress, etc
He got tested and Dr said he had very low T. He got injections (painful ones) could hardly walk after (for all the wrong reasons) so I don't want him to experience that again. 
We were having sex twice a week, then once a week, now we haven't had sex in over 2-3 weeks. He brought it up yesterday as if somehow I am not doing my part but tbh, I now dont want sex or to desire it because I just end up being disappointed. I am concerned at the impact on our relationship.
This just adds more complications to a relationship that has been through so much.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> You know better than us whether your wife will want to, and be willing to, after that age (although she may surprise you...different women react to life changes in different ways).
> 
> And I can understand the motivation to just not want to have to deal with it any more.
> 
> But I can can tell you definitively, that erectile disfunction by 50 is most definitely not a given. You may surprise yourself as well.


Randy, how old are you. You sound very very young. For some couples, the later years in life are the best in terms of intimacy, less stress, no kids, etc.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

aine said:


> the later years in life are the best in terms of intimacy, less stress, no kids, etc.


And the menopause... :smile2:


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

aine said:


> We were having sex twice a week, then once a week, now we haven't had sex in over 2-3 weeks.


Are you open to having sex that does not involve PIV? Do you enjoy being touched by his fingers, tongue or your toys? Or is the problem that you cannot get him off and that bothers you? Not judging, just curious.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

aine said:


> Based on this thread it appears that men are the only ones who have sexless or near sexless wives and are not getting enough. What happens when it is the wife, should I also run off and get someone else (based on majority of advice here?). My H was always a very highly sexual guy, right up to mid 40s. He started having ED problems mid 40s, probably due to his high usage of alcohol, our marriage problems, work stress, etc
> He got tested and Dr said he had very low T. He got injections (painful ones) could hardly walk after (for all the wrong reasons) so I don't want him to experience that again.
> We were having sex twice a week, then once a week, now we haven't had sex in over 2-3 weeks. He brought it up yesterday as if somehow I am not doing my part but tbh, I now dont want sex or to desire it because I just end up being disappointed. I am concerned at the impact on our relationship.
> This just adds more complications to a relationship that has been through so much.


Concerned about him or concerned about you? Not sure what his particular thoughts are of course. In our case I am much more concerned that we get together on a regular basis and do SOMETHING, but not necessarily PIV since she has some menopausal issues. It's been an adjustment we are still working through but good intentions on both sides goes a long way. I'd imagine if he is disappointing you, you can probably talk that through and come to a satisfactory compromise? I know, hard to talk about. Assume the best intentions...


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Women hitting on men? OK, maybe they do but in my experience it is for the man (me) to fix something for her that she can't or won't fix.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> Are you open to having sex that does not involve PIV? Do you enjoy being touched by his fingers, tongue or your toys? Or is the problem that you cannot get him off and that bothers you? Not judging, just curious.


No, I am down with all of those things. But if he is soft while doing those things I am disappointed, his erections are important (essential) as they have always been an indication of how much he wanted me.

Sexless marriage is defined as one with intercourse less than 10 times a year. To me intercourse is essential, it helps me to feel close to my husband and increase our bond. No intercourse, then I feel like we are just very good room mates. 

I am not sure if this is going to be my future. In his culture as people get older they sleep in separate rooms, and no longer have sex. His parents probably haven't had sex since their 50s. I dont want to live without sex as long as I am still physically able and willing. My grandparents were still doing it into their 70-80s.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

anonmd said:


> Concerned about him or concerned about you? Not sure what his particular thoughts are of course. In our case I am much more concerned that we get together on a regular basis and do SOMETHING, but not necessarily PIV since she has some menopausal issues. It's been an adjustment we are still working through but good intentions on both sides goes a long way. I'd imagine if he is disappointing you, you can probably talk that through and come to a satisfactory compromise? I know, hard to talk about. Assume the best intentions...


We have discussed this. It has a huge impact on his self esteem as he was always very sexual and never had issues before. I am not sure how to handle this impact either. I have spent most of my life with this man and with one thing and another (his drinking, his job stress, etc), I am not feeling so compassionate tbh. I know during the perimenopause I wasn't easy to live with so I guess the shoe is on the other foot now.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

This was probably already mentioned. 

Time for a complete physical for H. 

Obviously it's known too much drinking is bad for Es. The "bar" can lower on this when one gets older. 😉 ha, I just saw it, but no pun intended.


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## Tony Conrad (Oct 7, 2013)

Adjustment is endless. I would counsel wives that one day their hubby might have ED problems as the percentage is very high in the senior age bracket. Too much viagra is harmful. I have partial ED but DW still climaxes every time. You have to have a good imagination and build new skills. To be honest I enjoy it more now than ever as we really know what the other likes. I've spoken to women who have gone to pieces because of ED. I would say imagination and foreplay can work beautifully.


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