# Are women more offended by the term "Nice guy"



## ravioli (Jan 23, 2013)

Everytime I read a post on nice guys, it seems as though women are more offended by this notion. Especially if they are with a nice guy at the moment? Why is that? I find many men accept this term and are more open about their transition from one where women feel that it's more of an attack on them and who they are as a person for choosing one.

I don't understand. If you have a nice guy why not be proud? What is it about having a preference for a nice guy that you need to justify your actions for dating one or just defending one period?


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

If you've ever been one, you should know they always "finish last".
(and not necessarily in a good way)


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## d2snow (Mar 17, 2013)

I'd much rather have a nice guy, than an a-hole, macho type.

But the a-hole, macho types are much more handy around the house, lol


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Honestly, I'm not offended at all that my husband is "a nice guy." I'm no doubt more of the "A-personality" Alpha-type in our relationship, but we have a balance that works for us. For me - my offense at all of that labeling has nothing to do with not being proud. I am proud and incredibly grateful for my man for who he is. 

My offense is two fold:

1 - That once the perception of "Nice Guy" is made all manner of assumptions are made about the wife and the nature of the relationship. 

I mean, how typical is the following: Male poster is identified by others as "a Nice Guy." What comes next? Suggestions on how to "get alpha" and "swallow the red pill" about how weak it is to be "a Beta provider" and to just count the days til his wife gains 200 lbs and stops having sex with him. How if he was a "real man" he'd never help with the dishes and would only say "I love you" 1/3 as much as his wife does as that's how he keeps "game."

Which - can sometimes irk me in a non-personal kind of way. I feel compelled to note that not all "Nice Guys" are suffering in sexless marriage with harpies. The other stereotype being that I secretly (like all women) crave is abuse by a sociopathic narcissist. I just can't help myself. And if I say that's not what I want - I'm lying. So if my husband acts more like that, he'll "win the game." (Which - I confess, that phrase always makes me think of Highlander.) 

Its like being offended at any kind of stereotype. You may not be the person being talked about or joked about. But - you still feel the burn. Whenever the word "all" gets applied to any group of people, you are into stereotype zone. Some people may deal with that by being defensive. 

2 - I feel the need to point out to other posters that what may work/may have worked in their relationship is indeed not a panacea for all relationships everyone. There is no "one great truth" - every person on this planet - man and woman alike, is an individual with different needs, wants, and ambitions. Whether you label those individual combinations of personality traits their "need index" or "love languages" or anything else. 

So the whole "this is the only way anything else is failure" kind of mindset that arises from "Nice Guy" conversations is so - what's that saying, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes?" It's so absolute - this is it, this is the only way, any other path and you get what you deserve. It's so culty.


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

A nice guy is not nice.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

I think there's a difference between a nice guy and a "nice guy".


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SaltInWound said:


> A nice guy is not nice.


I agree. When I think of a 'nice guy', passive aggressive guy comes to mind.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I suspect its because to admit to the concept of nice guy is to also admit to using them. Nice guys accept being stood up for something better, nice guys accept being friend zoned and still being on call to fix a flat in the rain,


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Ravioli said*: Everytime I read a post on nice guys, it seems as though women are more offended by this notion. Especially if they are with a nice guy at the moment? Why is that? I find many men accept this term and are more open about their transition from one where women feel that it's more of an attack on them and who they are as a person for choosing one.
> 
> I don't understand. If you have a nice guy why not be proud? What is it about having a preference for a nice guy that you need to justify your actions for dating one or just defending one period?


I can't help but wonder if you seen my thread >> you are describing *me* here...I DO get my feathers ruffled when I read stuff like this article I picked apart ......

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies...nice-guys-described-so-many-google-links.html

I don't know if PROUD is the word .... but "Thankful" would fit... to be married to a Good Man....A Nice man...Gentlemanly - ....it takes A LOT to push him over the edge.....He was not one of those who changed after marriage... as if I beat him into submission or something...he was ALWAYS nice... from his teen years...

I have found I have to use "*GENUINE*" before the term to clarify because the word has forever been tainted now due to "No More Mr Nice Guy"...
...
I also feel wives could do more on their end...to work with their husbands if they are catering to them - playing "Nice Guy" ..yes even in the negative sense..

My husband had some of those hang ups....when I got the book we read through the 1st couple chapters... He now sees & understands why it is never beneficial to play "TOO PASSIVE" to his own needs & desires with me......how this wasn't helping him at all... he needed to communicate his wants... I can't say he was ever Passive AGGRESSIVE though...I was always happy , felt bonded/ we were still in tune....for the most part.. some things just needed tweaked....with his being more assertive with me. 



> Taken from  No More Mr. Nice Guy! Books
> 
> Here is a list of NICE GUY Characteristics - Most guys have a few of these, but the headed for doormat status "NICE guys"- posses these in abundance . The book has more detail to each little item of course.
> 
> ...



Love your Post StarStarFish.. .How can it not ruffle some of our feathers when ...another thing.... the term Nice Guy generally = Beta (or so I feel)...and Beta has been put down all over the Internet.

Far too often, it has come to mean.......doormat, a man less worthy, poor things, they all finish last.....probably a White Knight - articles are written to tell men they are fools if they show too much devotion to a woman.. 

And since they are such losers they jump for any woman who looks their way, after all they are desperate ! ....which really.... is a SHOT between our eyes if we are married to one....obviously I am some left over broad who couldn't win the Hot Stud ...so I am "settling" on the available "Nice Guy"...who couldn't get laid or a date.

I am getting carried away here... ... Really I love being married to a Genuine Nice Guy.. if he was masking his behaviors and being passive aggressive, it would really TICK ME OFF though ... he knows this... those are very ugly traits and go against honest communication. 

I am all for people being Genuine, Real...nothing wrong with a little conflict... a little vulnerability is a blessing too!


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

A nice guy might also see it as always his job to fix everything for everybody. If you're his partner, that means everybody gets a piece of him without having to make the same sacrifice that you do.

If my partner is going to be as nice to everyone as he is to me, then I should keep him as a friend and go find another partner that intends to make me his priority instead of feeling the need to prove to the world how nice he is........ and taking me with him.

Maybe it's kind of like the male equivalent of figuring out that you don't have to be her boyfriend in order to be able to have sex with her.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

My husband is a nice guy and I'm very proud to be his wife. He finishes first in my life!


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

My dear one is a combo of tough and confident, which makes him perceived as " not nice " but many. That is because they don't know the sweet guy that hides beneath all that tough surface - I do, and I'm blessed for that. I'm proud of my not-so-nice-guy.

For all I know, a nice guy is viewed as lacking confidence, being not very assertive, more of a follower than a leader, a giver rather than a taker, not too successful with women therefore tending to take a lot of sh!t from his SO. Is probably the kind of guy that would rug sweep an affair, and think he is the one who needs to re-conquer HER. The definition not always matches 100%, but based on this description, I can understand why no woman wants a " nice" guy.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

You need to define if you are talking about men who are nice, or men who are doormats.

I can't see defending a doormat in any relationship, because it's completely unhealthy.

A guy who doesn't stick up for himself is not attractive to any woman.

Men who defend nice guys, are either referring to the former classification, or are domineering control types who need to control men to stay in the relationship.

I think there's a lot of both on this forum, you can sort out who is who based on post content.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

I agree with COguy; being a doormat is the real issue with nice guys. They have "covert contracts" expecting a return on their investment from a wife who has no idea how they equate what they are doing to getting passionate sex. They are incapable of communicating directly about their needs with their spouse. They are "fixers" who gravitate to selfish, demanding women.

I have many posts about my husband being a nice guy, but I have realized after spending time at TAM that he is simply a good man, and that we are well-matched. He is very empathetic, makes our marriage a priority, and would not tolerate any selfish behavior from me.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

LovesHerMan said:


> I agree with COguy; being a doormat is the real issue with nice guys. They have "covert contracts" expecting a return on their investment from a wife who has no idea how they equate what they are doing to getting passionate sex. They are incapable of communicating directly about their needs with their spouse. They are "fixers" who gravitate to selfish, demanding women.
> 
> I have many posts about my husband being a nice guy, but I have realized after spending time at TAM that he is simply a good man, and that we are well-matched. He is very empathetic, makes our marriage a priority, and would not tolerate any selfish behavior from me.


Sounds like you're a real domineering control type


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

COguy said:


> Sounds like you're a real domineering control type


You got that one right!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I've pretty much come to terms that no matter what 'word' is used to describe a man or traits of a man ... and discussion of strategies a man who wants to improve can consider; somebody gets p!ssed off and feels the need to crap all over it.

I don't care about the label. I care about _what is going on his life that causes him concern, and what is he doing about it ..._

I stopped caring who is offended quite some time ago.

There is good advice to be had. 

The fact that those who despise the terms and strategies consistently latch onto the bad advice given, outliers and negative buzz-words around the subject should be surprising to no one.

There is a WORLD of difference between a good man and a 'nice guy'.

Nice isn't always nice. Sometimes nice is deceptive and dishonest ...

Beta isn't bad. Too much beta is ...

Alpha isn't good. Having no boundaries, lacking confidence and individuation is bad ...

And to be clear I understand that women who are married to, and in loving relationships with good men, are offended that references made may seem to apply to their husbands. But they don't ...
Those men are loved and respected. I'm certainly not going to knock that. Those relationships have noting but my support and admiration.

The 'nice guy' threads here ... or anywhere else for that matter aren't for them ... just doesn't apply.

It's for guys whose wives DESPISE them, don't have a shred of respect ... they are treated like children instead of men, _and they accept it_. And worse?They keep doing the very things that diminishes their spouses respect and affection, believing that the opposite will occur. I don't care if you call him a nice guy or a doormat ... that guy ISN'T a caricature. Because that guy shows up on this site all of the time.

I've said it many times ... if you are in a happy, healthy, relationship with a man who knows who he is and accepts himself?

The 'words' and the strategies aren't for you ... or him.

I just want to help the dudes who need help; and God love the women who love their husbands for exactly who they are, nice guy or otherwise.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

The doormat label is what we typically mean with the euphansim of Nice Guy.

Far too many men either are doormats from the start in their relationships, or slip into it overtime.

They dont have the confidence to say no when being taken advantage of.

They don't hold their SO to standards for respect or loyalty to them.

They stop choosing their battles wisely, and instead avoid all battle.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Nice Guys are Givers

Nice Guys fix & Caretake

Nice Guys seek approval from others

Nice Guys avoid Conflict

Nice Guys believe they must hide their perceived flaws & mistakes

Nice Guys seek the "right" way to do things

Nice Guys REPRESS their feelings

Nice Guys often try to be different from their fathers

Nice Guys are often more comfortable relating to women than to men

Nice Guys have difficulty making their needs a priority

Nice Guys often make their partner their emotional center 

These attributes are descriptive of men who were raised by their mothers with no input from a father figure.
We reap that which we sow.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Deejo said:


> It's for guys whose wives DESPISE them, don't have a shred of respect ... they are treated like children instead of men, _and they accept it_. And worse? They keep doing the very things that diminishes their spouses respect and affection, believing that the opposite will occur. I don't care if you call him a nice guy or a doormat ... that guy ISN'T a caricature. Because that guy shows up on this site all of the time.


When I read these threads, it's very hard for me. 

I was married for twenty years to someone who's considered a very nice guy. And he is nice. And kind. And generous. By all accounts, he is a good man.

But what's frustrating is that people seem to see these men as victims who've been wronged.

I can only speak for myself, but it was never my intention to treat my ex-husband like a child. And I certainly didn't take advantage of him.

He didn't know who he was, and he didn't accept himself. I still don't know to this day if he was incapable of making decisions or if he just chose not to.

What I do know is that I ended up feeling like I was put in the leadership role by default. I felt like everything was up to me, and if I didn't make a decision, the decision wasn't going to be made. I felt very alone and overwhelmed. I tried hard to defer to him and ask for his input. I didn't spend money without consulting him, and I consistently went to him about parenting choices. We tried talking about our sexless marriage. Nothing helped and nothing changed.

I resent the implication that he was/became a doormat _because_ of me - that because my ex-husband didn't say no to decisions he disagreed with, or refused to stand up for himself, that that was somehow my fault. I refuse to accept responsibility for that.

If anything, his overbearing, controlling, manipulative mother had much more to do with who he is than me.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

minimalME said:


> I resent the implication that he was/became a doormat _because_ of me - that because my ex-husband didn't say no to decisions he disagreed with, or refused to stand up for himself, that that was somehow my fault. I refuse to accept responsibility for that.


No one becomes a doormat BECAUSE of someone, unless that someone is a caregiver from childhood. It's a trait that we learn early on.

It's common for people like this to be attracted to people who are emotionally abusive. That doesn't make it your fault, or assume that you are abusive.

But the advice to men in these situations isn't about blaming the perpetrator, whoever it may be, it's about taking control of your life back. And that advice would be applicable just as much in your situation as it was to mine.


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## nishi_25 (Jun 30, 2013)

ravioli said:


> Everytime I read a post on nice guys, it seems as though women are more offended by this notion. Especially if they are with a nice guy at the moment? Why is that? I find many men accept this term and are more open about their transition from one where women feel that it's more of an attack on them and who they are as a person for choosing one.
> 
> I don't understand. If you have a nice guy why not be proud? What is it about having a preference for a nice guy that you need to justify your actions for dating one or just defending one period?


?? Whats offensive about being nice? I think some women are too sensitive about everything. lol :scratchhead:


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

COguy said:


> No one becomes a doormat BECAUSE of someone, unless that someone is a caregiver from childhood. It's a trait that we learn early on.
> 
> It's common for people like this to be attracted to people who are emotionally abusive. That doesn't make it your fault, or assume that you are abusive.
> 
> But the advice to men in these situations isn't about blaming the perpetrator, whoever it may be, it's about taking control of your life back. And that advice would be applicable just as much in your situation as it was to mine.


Yes, you're right.

Unfortunately, for each of us to take control of our lives, we divorced - initiated by me. And I'm glad that he's slowly taking responsibility, four years later. But it's sad that it took such drastic measures for him to be willing to grow and change. 

Now he's in therapy, now he'll go to the doctor, now he buys clothes for himself, now his career is successful, etc.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Deejo said:


> The 'nice guy' threads here ... or anywhere else for that matter aren't for them ... just doesn't apply.


 Well you sure TOLD ME , didn't you. 

I still think some of the articles on the net (I didn't say here) are Mocking in their tone....I just don't feel you help anyone by mocking them to get your point across. 

Before I knew anything about any of these terms, years ago, we watched a guy friend...try to win a lady from our church being NICE... doing for her...she kept him dangling... and he kept hoping, praying for it to all turn around.... I could so easily see what was happening.... USING HIM WRITTEN ALL OVER THAT.... .he painted her house, then painted her Mom's house...

Short from me taking his head and banging it against a wall....I let him know what was happening....she was NOT into him....can't he see what she is doing [email protected]#$% Move on..... We were his friends, we didn't mock him, but we did give it to him straight. 

We were there for him - through the fall out... it just wasn't an easy time.

This was not a marriage situation obviously... so who is worse, the stupid guy or the User woman. I guess men are just ashamed of other men who are dangled like a puppet with some SKIRT on the other end. I guess it all makes sense.


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## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

What happens when a Nice Guy and a Nice Gal marry? Will they cancel each other? Fight who will give and fix things? Though both will avoid confrontation what then?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Suspecting said:


> What happens when a Nice Guy and a Nice Gal marry? Will they cancel each other? Fight who will give and fix things? Though both will avoid confrontation what then?


In my situation, no fighting, no passion, no sex. We lived like siblings/best friends.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Suspecting said:


> What happens when a Nice Guy and a Nice Gal marry? Will they cancel each other? Fight who will give and fix things? Though both will avoid confrontation what then?


I had that hypothetical. Someone mentioned two codependents in a relationship together would be like two alcoholics. You can mutually encourage eachother to keep from slipping, but if there is ever a lapse in vigilance the potential for trainwreck is huge.

Imagine two people covert contracting eachother and both being passive aggressive and not discussing feelings.


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## AlphaProvider (Jul 8, 2013)

Some women do want a "nice" man. They don't want a bossy and domineering man, to these type of women, that's a slap in their face and annoys them.

The alpha who always needs to be the pinnacle of attention, can be annoying to people.

I think the key here, is you should not be "doormatted". It's just easier to find someone who respects you for who you are. And does NOT want to take advantage of you.


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## AlphaProvider (Jul 8, 2013)

minimalME said:


> In my situation, no fighting, no passion, no sex. We lived like siblings/best friends.


So "spark" is tiny bit's of "friction" or "opposition"?


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## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

AlphaProvider said:


> Some women do want a "nice" man. They don't want a bossy and domineering man, to these type of women, that's a slap in their face and annoys them.
> 
> The alpha who always needs to be the pinnacle of attention, can be annoying to people.
> 
> I think the key here, is you should not be "doormatted". It's just easier to find someone who respects you for who you are. And does NOT want to take advantage of you.


That could be two "nice" people but some people here say it's impossible combination and won't work. In my opinion you only will be doormat if the other person is too dominant. Balanced alpha/beta could be "doormatted" by extreme alpha person.


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## HangingVine (Jul 1, 2013)

d2snow said:


> I'd much rather have a nice guy, than an a-hole, macho type.
> 
> But the a-hole, macho types are much more handy around the house, lol


Nice guy doesn't mean they aren't a-holes.Or that nice guys aren't handy around the house.


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## AlphaProvider (Jul 8, 2013)

Suspecting said:


> That could be two "nice" people but some people here say it's impossible combination and won't work. In my opinion you only will be doormat if the other person is too dominant. Balanced alpha/beta could be "doormatted" by extreme alpha person.


Agree.

Balanced alpha/beta should be able to accept this and say "we just don't get along", and let that pure alpha have someone else.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

AlphaProvider said:


> Some women do want a "nice" man. They don't want a bossy and domineering man, to these type of women, that's a slap in their face and annoys them.


I'm speculating about my own mindset, but at the time, I think because of my history, I was unconsciously searching for a safe man - not a nice man. But that safety came with a huge price. 



AlphaProvider said:


> So "spark" is tiny bit's of "friction" or "opposition"?


Hmmm. We maybe had 3 real arguments in 20 years of marriage? There was no spark, no friction, no opposition. 

On a day to day basis our household flowed very smoothly.

We were the opposite of all our friends. They were having fights and sex. We weren't. Everyone admired how well we worked together in our family. No one knew the truth until after our divorce.


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## AlphaProvider (Jul 8, 2013)

minimalME said:


> I'm speculating about my own mindset, but at the time, I think because of my history, I was unconsciously searching for a safe man - not a nice man. But that safety came with a huge price.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why couldn't you have this model of efficiency and have tons of sex? Knowing that's what you want?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

AlphaProvider said:


> Why couldn't you have this model of efficiency and have tons of sex? Knowing that's what you want?


As I said before, my ex was/is very kind and sweet - and painfully passive.

That passivity in a man who doesn't lead or make decisions becomes (for lack of a better word) repulsive. There was no sexual attraction, and I've described it to others as feeling sexually dormant. 

I had very little self awareness when I married. I was completely clueless about male/female dynamics.

Now I know that I need male assertiveness to get turned on. My ex-husband is incapable of that level of aggression. It's just not in his nature, and I could be wrong, but I don't believe any amount of therapy or working on himself will change that.


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## HangingVine (Jul 1, 2013)

> I had very little self awareness when I married. I was completely clueless about male/female dynamics.


Its not male or female dynamics.No one (not a healthy person) is attracted to a doormat.

But I don't understand what is wrong with this..



> On a day to day basis our household flowed very smoothly.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Nice guys fear.


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## AlphaProvider (Jul 8, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> Nice guys fear.


Fear what?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

HangingVine said:


> Its not male or female dynamics.No one (not a healthy person) is attracted to a doormat.


I disagree. 

The balance of masculine and feminine energy is huge in relationships. Even with homosexual couples, I doubt you'll find two feminine or two masculine energy people who stay together for any significant period of time. 

But your second point is true - neither one of us was healthy when we married.



> But I don't understand what is wrong with this..


It wasn't a marriage.


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## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

minimalME said:


> Now I know that I need male assertiveness to get turned on. My ex-husband is incapable of that level of aggression. It's just not in his nature, and I could be wrong, but I don't believe any amount of therapy or working on himself will change that.


This is an interesting remark as this forum is full of instructions, recommendations of self-help books and strategies how to change from Unattractive No Sex Beta/Nice Guy to an Attaractive Alpha Male Supremus (AAMS) - with Golden Ratio Shoulders, who will have sex at any time he wants and have so many women in his BootyCall Phone that he can even lend a few extras to his friends. These Studz will simply get hit on in every place they go and a good portion of their day time goes into refusing date requests from Young and Very Attractive Representatives (YVAR) of the more beautiful gender (Females). They are simply everywhere they go.

Standby while waiting for Machiavelli and co to arrive with the advanced charts, curves and the picture with an explanation of the Perfect Male Form AKA The Golden Ratio Triangle presentation. It's all about the Triangle for men.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Suspecting said:


> This is an interesting remark as this forum is full of instructions, recommendations of self-help books and strategies how to change from Unattractive No Sex Beta/Nice Guy to an Attaractive Alpha Male Supremus (AAMS) - with Golden Ratio Shoulders, who will have sex at any time he wants and have so many women in his BootyCall Phone that he can even lend a few extras to his friends. These Studz will simply get hit on in every place they go and a good portion of their day time goes into refusing date requests from Young and Very Attractive Representatives (YVAR) of the more beautiful gender (Females). They are simply everywhere they go.
> 
> Standby while waiting for Machiavelli and co to arrive with the advanced charts, curves and the picture with an explanation of the Perfect Male Form AKA The Golden Ratio Triangle presentation. It's all about the Triangle for men.


*waits patiently*









BTW - My ex is stunning and well endowed. Didn't matter. Just sayin'.


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## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

minimalME said:


> *waits patiently*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, of course. If you are stunning with Big penis you can ignore everything else. Just grab a new chick from the pickup bar or university library.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Suspecting said:


> Yes, of course. If you are stunning with Big penis you can ignore everything else. Just grab a new chick from the pickup bar or university library.


I think you may have missed the painfully passive part.

Of course, he could meet a very assertive/aggressive woman one day, and then the dynamic might work.


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## AlphaProvider (Jul 8, 2013)

Suspecting said:


> This is an interesting remark as this forum is full of instructions, recommendations of self-help books and strategies how to change from Unattractive No Sex Beta/Nice Guy to an Attaractive Alpha Male Supremus (AAMS) - with Golden Ratio Shoulders, who will have sex at any time he wants and have so many women in his BootyCall Phone that he can even lend a few extras to his friends. These Studz will simply get hit on in every place they go and a good portion of their day time goes into refusing date requests from Young and Very Attractive Representatives (YVAR) of the more beautiful gender (Females). They are simply everywhere they go.
> 
> Standby while waiting for Machiavelli and co to arrive with the advanced charts, curves and the picture with an explanation of the Perfect Male Form AKA The Golden Ratio Triangle presentation. It's all about the Triangle for men.


Right... All about landing in the "bermuda triangle".

Machiavelli, could lead the masters class promoting the "golden ratio", correct use of Alpha and Beta principles, proper display of masculinity, power management and structured and advanced life planning for success.

The males would be pro's at landing in the "bermuda triangle".


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Well you sure TOLD ME , didn't you.
> 
> I still think some of the articles on the net (I didn't say here) are Mocking in their tone....I just don't feel you help anyone by mocking them to get your point across.
> 
> ...


It's never directed at you SA. Sorry if it looks that way. You've been in the trenches here as long as I have. I respect your position and your marriage. 
I just don't apply the rhetoric to your relationship.

I'm just not going to argue with results. And you ... have excellent results. You are also very aware of the dynamic. Your husband seems very comfortable in his skin. Change the dynamic around and you stop paying attention to, or appreciating, or being affectionate out of the blue, and your husband is left with a very different feeling. Know what I mean?


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## freeshias (Jul 7, 2013)

It depends on the CONTEXT of when someone is saying: "Nice guy"...
Because usually, in MY EXPERIENCE, the only time anyone is saying: "He is a nice guy", or: "I am a nice guy", it's because they are trying to defend themselves, because they haven't been nice guys.


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

I wasnt always that way, but i was a nice guy. 

I worked ungodly hours so my wife didnt have to. I was manipulated, used, abused. I relied on her for my own happiness. She was my barometer. I mimiced her emotions, gauging whether or not i should be happy on her.

Nice guys enable their poor treatment. I didnt have the means or confidence to change. I was passive, submissive, avoided conflict. I didnt feel like i deserved good things. I needed two things to change my life. I needed motivation and knowledge. My wife gave me motivation by cheating. No more nice guy gave me the knowledge.

I can tell you a nice guy is not a good guy. I felt helpless and thats no way to live.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

To talk about the term, you must understand its context.

Good guys may always be nice, but nice guys are not always good. In fact they quite often aren't.

I would guess any woman offended by the use of it, is either in a typical nice guy relationship and denying it. Quite likely abusing the hell out of the relationship dynamic too.

Or they aren't with a nice guy at all but a good man. Please realise this is a vital distinction when talking about Mr Nice Guy.

Nice guys are not healthy balanced men. Take it from a recovering one. I'm a much better person now for me AND for others to be around than when I was being a "nice guy".


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## AlphaProvider (Jul 8, 2013)

awake1 said:


> I wasnt always that way, but i was a nice guy.
> 
> I worked ungodly hours so my wife didnt have to. I was manipulated, used, abused. I relied on her for my own happiness. She was my barometer. I mimiced her emotions, gauging whether or not i should be happy on her.
> 
> ...


There was nothing wrong with you. There are women who will appreciate and cherish a proper male and provider like you where.

Obviously your "wife" was taking advantage of it. If you look deeper, you may find your marriage motivations where always wrong from the get go. 

You can't blame the man that you where, because that role still is important, blame her for taking advantage of your kindness.

There's nothing wrong with kindness like you exhibited. You just have to keep the leaches out of your circle and away from you. They look for men just like you.

Many good women until they've been burned enough times, will look for a narcissistic and self-centered alpha jerk. Happy to be close to them, will keep running to it until it's wore enough of themself down. Then they want a man like you.

The worst case is one who is good, keeps juggling these self centered and obsessively narcisstic jerks, and gain bad behaviors... Then a good man like you gets to pay for it all.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

ravioli said:


> I don't understand. If you have a nice guy why not be proud? What is it about having a preference for a nice guy that you need to justify your actions for dating one or just defending one period?


Proud to be with a nice guy,I'll even go as far as to say he's a good man 

I guess it's annoying bc I don't think a man like my SO should be classified as some hopeless doormat with no sexual heat or passion.

People abuse the term nice guy.They describe doormat guy and call him nice guy.To me,those are two different types of men.

SO is a combo.He's a nice guy but he's sometimes a doormat guy.It's my responsibility as his loving partner to boost him up and remind him to stand his ground when it's warranted.In turn,he balances me by reeling me in when I get too aggressive about something. 

It works for us bc I don't step on him.Any other woman might lose interest and not be attracted to him.That's fine by me

It's kind of sad how many nice guys and gals get ruined by aggressive idiots stomping all over them.


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## AlphaProvider (Jul 8, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Proud to be with a nice guy,I'll even go as far as to say he's a good man
> 
> I guess it's annoying bc I don't think a man like my SO should be classified as some hopeless doormat with no sexual heat or passion.
> 
> ...


It's great someone brought out the female example of a "nice" lady being taken advantage of by a selfish and aggressive jerk!

Yeah, it's definately no discredit to her.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Northern Monkey said:


> To talk about the term, you must understand its context.
> 
> Good guys may always be nice, but nice guys are not always good. In fact they quite often aren't.
> 
> ...


My husband must be a good man then. He's very balanced in all aspects of life. 

I would much rather have a marriage where my husband fully respects me, value and seeks my opinion, compromises well with me then someone who tries to control every aspect of my life. I'm very lucky to have found that good man.

I do not like it in the least bit being told what to do and how to do it by anyone. I find it very disrespectful. I also do not like to tell others what to do either. I like being treated as an equal and this is how I live. It's very peaceful and filled with happiness in our home. Life is good.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

Another point, a good man will realise compromise is essential to a healthy relationship but will draw the line at their own core values.

A nice guy will have their core values trampled and continue to roll over.

If your man can draw a line and say this far and no further in a respectful way, he probably doesn't qualify as. Nice guy in the TAM or book sense.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

minimalME said:


> I resent the implication that he was/became a doormat _because_ of me - that because my ex-husband didn't say no to decisions he disagreed with, or refused to stand up for himself, that that was somehow my fault. I refuse to accept responsibility for that.
> 
> If anything, his overbearing, controlling, manipulative mother had much more to do with who he is than me.


I really appreciate your post.

Very often, men come here and lay out a litany of behaviors about how they are treated poorly by their wife.

There is a very simple truth about about being a 'doormat' partner. You have to choose to lie down. And that's on you, not your partner.

Another simple axiom that we make clear is that we, be it men or women train others how to treat us. If one reinforces and rewards bad behavior, then one shouldn't be surprised when bad behavior becomes the standard.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

My reply saying about the woman abusing the dynamic was a bit catch all in reflection. 

It mirrors my marriage and many of the GTDS threads I've been active in.

I have however always held my hands up that my stbx didn't make me the way I was in my marriage. I was already broken. She just took advantage of that. Very much a case of being treated the way I taught her to treat me.

Experience colouring my words I suppose. I accept that isn't always the way it works. Just because I was taken for a ride. That it happens a lot, doesn't mean every woman with a doormat is at fault or abusing the dynamic.

As to what do nice guys/doormats fear? I think it changes from case to case. But generaly fear of loss, of being alone. In my case I dressed up my attachment as being in love so I didn't have to face being alone. I accepted her treatment of me as ok, as if I stood up to her, she might have left. Better to roll over.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I really appreciate your post.
> 
> Very often, men come here and lay out a litany of behaviors about how they are treated poorly by their wife.
> 
> ...


We're talking about adults, so if your goal is to help people take personal responsibility for their thoughts, choices and actions, then that's awesome.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that I chose to lie down? 

I take ownership of my choices, and I agree with you - it is on me. I don't have a problem with that at all. Growing up in an atmosphere of dysfunction, I'm hyper-aware of my own struggles and weaknesses, and I don't turn away from looking at my faults. 

To me, there are two kinds of people - those who are broken yet acknowledge it and deal with it and work to grow and get stronger, and those who are broken but deny or avoid or pretend like they're just fine.

During my marriage, I tried to deal with problems in a way that would benefit both of us. I made suggestions of ways we could possibly bond since we had basically no sexual interaction and children grow up and move away. 

During our separation, I chose counseling, while he blew it off. I asked him if he would read through _Getting the Love You Want _with me. He said yes, and then did nothing. The three times I tried to talk to him about working through problems during our separation, he got angry. When I brought up sex, he acted disgusted - like I was asking for something unreasonable.

He told me flat out that he wanted to be accepted as he was, and he wasn't going to promise me that anything would change.

I chose divorce rather than pretending to have a marriage. If that's lying down, so be it.

My main point that had to do with what you posted earlier is that, yes, throughout my two decades of marriage, I lost respect for my husband. But I did what I could to try and understand him, and at no time did I ever want anything but the best for him. I didn't abuse him, or take advantage of him, or walk all over him. 

I'm just one person, and this has been my experience. Not all wives in these situations are the same.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

This thread along with a few others about the same topic tell me I have the wrong definition of nice guy.
Seems wrong to call SO a nice guy while reading everyone's meaning of the term.maybe he's just a sensitive good guy.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

MinimalME, I don't get the impression you were the doormat but rather with some one that may fit the description?

What's is being said is that when you are a doormat, you have made that choice to lay down and be walked over. He for whatever reason chose to lay down and be passive. That was his choice. Your choice was to say no more and get out. 

Being passive or non sexual isn't automatically the doormat personality we are talking about. If you said jump and he refused he may not fit the nice guy pattern at all. Doesn't mean he wasn't messed up or you were wrong to say no more.

And SB, I've never got the impression in any of your posts that your SO is a typical nice guy in the sense we are talking. A good guy, a balanced guy, considerate, even willing to put you first. None of that makes him a nice guy syndrome person.

You may think of him as nice, and in the pure sense of the word he may well be. Thing is though, certainly on TAM, nice guy has the connotations it does. I think here you would be doing him a dis-service using the label. He doesn't sound like he has many, if any, of the issues I did as a nice guy.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Northern Monkey said:


> And SB, I've never got the impression in any of your posts that your SO is a typical nice guy in the sense we are talking. A good guy, a balanced guy, considerate, even willing to put you first. None of that makes him a nice guy syndrome person.
> 
> You may think of him as nice, and in the pure sense of the word he may well be. Thing is though, certainly on TAM, nice guy has the connotations it does. I think here you would be doing him a dis-service using the label. He doesn't sound like he has many, if any, of the issues I did as a nice guy.


yup,that's what I'm starting to think now. He's too awesome to have me running around giving him a label that has such negative things associated with it.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Northern Monkey said:


> MinimalME, I don't get the impression you were the doormat but rather with some one that may fit the description?
> 
> What's is being said is that when you are a doormat, you have made that choice to lay down and be walked over. He for whatever reason chose to lay down and be passive. That was his choice. Your choice was to say no more and get out.
> 
> Being passive or non sexual isn't automatically the doormat personality we are talking about. If you said jump and he refused he may not fit the nice guy pattern at all. Doesn't mean he wasn't messed up or you were wrong to say no more.



Yes, I think I took the 'you' literally.


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## one_strange_otter (Aug 26, 2008)

I learned very early on that I was going to be the guy that girls wish they had married instead of going for the super macho *********s that treat them like crap. The one they say they want. Strong, loving, great with kids, stable, full time job.... I like being nice and helpful. 

Just the other day I was walking to my car after cashing out at walmart and a grandma was unpacking her cart. She finished and turned to look and find the corral was up the row quite a bit. i just said "ma'am, let me take that for you. I'm already headed that way." I got a nice genuine smile and that gesture probably made her day. Yep, boy scout through and through this one is.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Nope, didn't mean the singular 'you', I meant the third person 'you'.

Wasn't saying you were a doormat at all. Sounds like your ex was ... and being passive and taken for granted or taken advantage of, isn't something that other people do to a person who is a doormat.
It is something that the person being a doormat allows and enables being done to them.

A 'Nice Guy' will be a doormat because he thinks it will make people like, or accept him. The idea of telling someone they are wrong or standing up for what they want is anathema to a NG, because they run the risk of being rejected. Like Shaggy said, a NG is duplicitous because of fear. Which means they aren't all that nice at all. They are nice to feed something within them ... they are not nice because they believe in altruism.

Women should be offended by 'Nice Guys'. They indeed, as you rightly point out, 'don't know who they are', so they look to other people for their definition. 

Nobody wants to be with that guy, including himself.


minimalME said:


> We're talking about adults, so if your goal is to help people take personal responsibility for their thoughts, choices and actions, then that's awesome.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by saying that I chose to lie down?
> 
> ...


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

AlphaProvider said:


> Obviously your "wife" was taking advantage of it. If you look deeper, you may find your marriage motivations where always wrong from the get go.
> 
> You can't blame the man that you where, because that role still is important, blame her for taking advantage of your kindness.


Kindness is fine. Self sacrifice to the point of saint hood is not. 

My main issue as a 'nice guy' was putting the needs of everyone else first and always. 



AlphaProvider said:


> There's nothing wrong with kindness like you exhibited. You just have to keep the leaches out of your circle and away from you. They look for men just like you.


Like I said, kindness wasn't really my problem. I was not happy in life, leeches or not. Unless you've been an abused spineless man you may not quite understand the difference between kindness and allowing yourself to be a victim. 

I bought a necklace for myself back in january. It was the first thing I'd gotten myself in about 2 years. I felt guilty for a day or two. It felt wrong to buy myself something. 


AlphaProvider said:


> The worst case is one who is good, keeps juggling these self centered and obsessively narcisstic jerks, and gain bad behaviors... Then a good man like you gets to pay for it all.


I'm still a good guy. I don't randomly give people the finger in traffic or rob banks. 

But I don't fear the world anymore. I won't put up with being mistreated or taken advantage of. I won't avoid conflict or tell people what they want to hear just to avoid their reaction. 

The worst part of being a nice guy is/was that little voice that says "you can't do this" about almost anything. 

When you always put others first, you end up believing you're last. Even worse, so do they. 

You no longer treat yourself like equals, but like superior and inferior. 

I had to instead say "don't tell yourself that, you can do this". Eventually it just turns into "You can"


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## FemBot (May 1, 2013)

A true masculine male is a nice guy. Not afraid of assertiveness when boundaries are crossed but treats you with respect and love. An true masculine male isn't a macho buttmunch. A fake masculine male is a "nice guy" who uses passive aggression to get his way.


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

Northern Monkey said:


> Another point, a good man will realise compromise is essential to a healthy relationship but will draw the line at their own core values.
> 
> A nice guy will have their core values trampled and continue to roll over.
> 
> If your man can draw a line and say this far and no further in a respectful way, he probably doesn't qualify as. Nice guy in the TAM or book sense.


To expand further: 

A nice guy would draw the line and say "no more". Then when it's crossed draw a new line and say "I mean it this time. Don't cross" It doesn't have to be words, but action. It could be an agreement to only do dishes saturday and sunday. After time the nice guy might find his boundary moving (due to nothing else but the lazyiness of his spouse). It might turn into monday too, and tuesday, and weds etc. They also, in my experience hold themselves to higher standards than others. 

A nice guy will keep shifting boundaries so he doesn't have to enforce them. It's easier to make excuses for someone like "Well they only kissed. No PIA sex." or "It was just a one night stand" etc. 

They also bottle everything up. They're afraid to express emotions, not wanting to rock the boat. 

What i discovered is that we nice guys don't think like other guys. It takes years of negative reinforcement to make a nice guy. Whether that comes from internal negative thoughts or external ones. (as an example, my mom was always critical of me. Not her fault, but it set the motion) 

When people say "nice guys" are great guys, they have no idea what it's like to be one. (I'm using the term here to describe the nice guy syndrome not a good guy)


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

awake1 said:


> To expand further:
> 
> A nice guy would draw the line and say "no more". Then when it's crossed draw a new line and say "I mean it this time. Don't cross" It doesn't have to be words, but action. It could be an agreement to only do dishes saturday and sunday. After time the nice guy might find his boundary moving (due to nothing else but the lazyiness of his spouse). It might turn into monday too, and tuesday, and weds etc. They also, in my experience hold themselves to higher standards than others.
> 
> ...


Very intuitive. I too am/was a nice guy.

I do disagree on the emotional part- The few times as a teen that I felt it was perfectly reasonable to "speak out in anger", or show that I was in fact angry, I was sternly disciplined (by teachers, girlfriends, etc..) as "over-reacting", when I did no more than speak my mind. This messed with me tremendously.

What else I haven't seen mentioned really in this thread is that I attributed a lot of my nice guy mentality to being bullied throughout most of my childhood and teens. It led directly to me avoiding conflicts more than anything else, and probably has a lot more connections to the nice-guy syndrome than I think any of us ever gave credit to.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

Or perhaps the behaviours that made you a target for bullies are the same as those that cause nice guy behaviour. Symptom rather than cause and effect.

I don't know which way it works but as a younger child I was bullied till I enforced my line in the sand one day.

For me at least the bullying and later, codependancy were symptoms of other things I went through as a child rather than causes.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

Who can say? I was being bullied long before I hit puberty, so I like to think I would have fared better after "the change" had I been in a normal childhood, or at least had normal friends- I don't know really. I believe that your experiences in life make you who you are.. and had I not been chased, beaten, intimidated, and often cringing in a corner, that maybe I would have been more "normal" just be proxy of better friends (being in the IN crowd, for example).

I did improve my situation, but in a way I made it worse. To counter the bullies, I started hanging out with the "druggies", aka poor kids in school, the losers, the unpopular crowd. We didn't do sports, polo shirts, and homework. We smoked cigarettes and pot, and watched each others backs. We weren't on the school council, we didn't have a nominee for class president. 

But I was protected.. the football team left me alone eventually. But at the same time, I destroyed my academic future- didn't go to college with my class- I wasn't welcome.

We're totally hijacking this thread now, and maybe this deserves it's own thread, but throughout all the BS in my youth, I carried with me a nice-guy, and became a doormat for many years to come once I got better looking (didn't happen for me til about 19 years old) and started dating more. I knew nothing of HS politics/dating, and was young and dumb(er) than most my age. I made a great target for controlling women (I do blame myself for most of it).

Anyways.. I did realize later on (post 30 years old) what I was, had become, and started drawing lines in the sand, sticking up for myself, and taking conflict head on.

Met my match at 38 no less, at a corporate job. Got myself a corporate bully. These are the worst- there's no kicking someones asz to stop it. Any reaction is measured as weakness, and failure to act invites more taunting. It's a horrible double edged sword that I never quite solved, but ended up getting fired for circumstances the bully created. I work for a small company now and it suits me just fine- I have a nice job, nice office, and authority.. and it's small enough that problems can't be buried in an HR department. 

Enough of that, I'm all good now- just wanted to say that. I still think theres a link between bullying and nice guy syndrome.. I'd be interested in knowing if most nice guys were in fact victims of bullying.


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

I ended up in over a dozen fights from 4th grade to 11th, all with bullies. The one in 10th grade was pretty bad. I had 2 black eyes and a busted nose and lip. I gave as good as I got. 

There's so much the "new" me would never do or allow. For example, I wouldn't have put up with bullies. Whether in a schoolyard at work. I mean, I was such a nice guy I stayed a virgin till I met my wife, turning down other women. 

Sometimes I wish my life had fallen apart 10 years ago and I wouldn't have wasted so much of my time.


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## AlphaProvider (Jul 8, 2013)

Suspecting said:


> That could be two "nice" people but some people here say it's impossible combination and won't work. In my opinion you only will be doormat if the other person is too dominant. Balanced alpha/beta could be "doormatted" by extreme alpha person.


Is your avatar a "Ken" doll?


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

SaltInWound said:


> A nice guy is not nice.


That about sums it up beautifully in 6 words.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Deejo said:


> It's never directed at you SA. Sorry if it looks that way. You've been in the trenches here as long as I have. I respect your position and your marriage.
> I just don't apply the rhetoric to your relationship.
> 
> *I'm just not going to argue with results.* And you ... have excellent results. You are also very aware of the dynamic. Your husband seems very comfortable in his skin. Change the dynamic around and you stop paying attention to, or appreciating, or being affectionate out of the blue, and your husband is left with a very different feeling. Know what I mean?


I wouldn't argue with results either, I am one of the few women on this forum who jumps to recommend "*No More Mr Nice Guy*" and much appreciate Athol Kay's stuff ....as he brought balance, sense and goodness to the Beta label which is a rare find on the net... I bought both of those books to further my knowledge & curious to see if they'd rub me the wrong way...they didn't ...not at all. Many insights in there.... I throw to our sons even. 



> *Kaboom said*: Enough of that, I'm all good now- just wanted to say that. I still think theres a link between *bullying and nice guy syndrome*.. I'd be interested in knowing if most nice guys were in fact victims of bullying.


 My husband was always very thin, introverted, he wore glasses, not good in sports... he was a target.. 

I didn't know him then but since I asked...he's told me he was bullied some in early high school... How can I say this without making him sound like a total loser / weakling...he told me he didn't really try to show them up... because if they threw his glasses off , he was screwed...he wasn't the type to run & tell anyone either... .he knew he wasn't as physically strong --why would he want the sh** kicked out of him (what he said once)......I hate thinking he went through that. ... 

It's funny though, a # of times we ran into some old high school guys he grew up with, not really his friends....they'd come up to him -ask how he was, remember his name even (he didn't even know who they were!)....they'd tell him he was always a nice person, something to that effect.. 

He never joined in with the bad crowd to appease them...or lower his standards for anyone.....he just WAS WHO HE WAS......he just did his best to avoid the S O B's... he always had friends... We met at a Vo-Tech school -as he had the option to get out of his high school... I guess it all played to our favor....Had he enjoyed his high school experience... I can't see how we would have found each other... 



> *awake1 said*: There's so much the "new" me would never do or allow. For example, I wouldn't have put up with bullies. Whether in a schoolyard at work. I mean, *I was such a nice guy I stayed a virgin till I met my wife, turning down other women.*


 and you regret this I take ??

There is something I have noticed on this forum... for the Men who have Climbed out of "being NICE" -in this negative sense.... who have turned around full circle...they REALLY were wearing some kind of *a mask*.. as I ASSUME here you wanted to lay those women....didn't you? I mean it was not an integrity thing going on in your head or against your personal morals.... you just allowed fear... whatever (being nice so they wouldn't THINK you were a Player)...to rule your behavior back then.

I've talked to my husband about this sort of thing...granted no women were knocking down his door...but I asked what if they WERE... would he have jumped, wanted them, enjoyed himself .....he shook his head.... told me he was never that type, he couldn't be with someone without the emotional.... so in his TRUE underlying make up....sex is something to be reserved for someone special... other wise you got your hand and you keep looking for that special one. Plus he always mentions STD's... no amount of risk , no matter how small...was worth it to him or would ever be. It's just another view...



ScarletBegonias said:


> People abuse the term nice guy.They describe doormat guy and call him nice guy.To me,those are two different types of men.
> 
> *SO is a combo.He's a nice guy but he's sometimes a doormat guy.It's my responsibility as his loving partner to boost him up and remind him to stand his ground when it's warranted.In turn,he balances me by reeling me in when I get too aggressive about something*.
> 
> ...


 This sounds like US also.....I have my moments... usually not even related to him though....He has the fine ability to temper me down in a very amusing, endearing way....which always makes me feel very loved, accepted... And he means it ....truly....he'll make fun of me ...and call me warped, I LOVE THIS.....some women may get Peeed off but I enjoy it.... it keeps us laughing ...I know he doesn't mean anything in a mean way...we might as well make fun of our imperfections. 

And really, I am far too sensitive myself to hurt him/ abuse him intentionally.... I just can't do that to a good person....If I am treated with loving arms, honesty and fairness...I am a hell of a giver... even imagining being with someone who threw their weight around, disrespected me, belittled me...I'd want rid of him as much as he'd want rid of me. It wouldn't be pretty... 



ScarletBegonias said:


> This thread along with a few others about the same topic tell me I have the wrong definition of nice guy.
> Seems wrong to call SO a nice guy while reading everyone's meaning of the term....maybe he's just a sensitive good guy.


Yes, this is it...a SENSITIVE GOOD GUY. 

Overly sensitive in an insecure way would be hell to live with though....thankfully my husband has never been this way...... but sensitive to how he treats others...and the fact HE FEELS deeply about things...he's not numb or unemotional to the highs of life...or even the sorrows....but can express that openly/ freely to me....those are very fine qualities.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

SA and SB, you both,sound like you have healthy relationships.

I like to think I am similar in a lot of ways to the men you describe. But I was always a very scared person. Before my marriage and since the split I fought the fear. I didn't let it rule me though it was always there.

Something happened when I met stbx though. I hold my hands up and say most of it was on me. Classic redefining of boundaries and very much the follower rather than leader. Everything became on her terms. Everything was about appeasing her. Even when I was the only one working, I was reluctant to buy myself anything and very guilty and even deceitful when I finally did. Sex was rationed... if you did such and such maybe you'd get more...

I was terrified of losing her, thinking her irreplacable. I put her on a pedestal that was on another pedestal. Always trying to please her and kicking myself for being unworthy of her when I failed. I lay down, she took advantage long after she wanted me as a real husband.

Thing is, I was with a woman as mixed up as I was. I was desperately defining myself by and tring to please a woman that didn't know herself and I believe to this day doesn't actually know what she wants to "be happy".

She was happy to use me as a father and provider, when I fell apart she didn't stand by me and support me through for love, she resented me and begans a long drawn out exit plan. She qualified from Uni on the back of not working at all. Though she had a bursary I was the only one working to get her through including 2 years of nights where, due to kids pickup I often only had 4hrs sleep. Within two months of qualifying I was tossed aside. Hadn't been wanted for years and finally was no longer needed either. She waited only long enough for me to "mess up" and give her a "reason" so she wasn't the bad guy.

This is my perspective on being a nice guy and sadly my stbx is apparently much more typical of the sort of relationship a nice guy gets into than the ones SA or SB describe.


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## yellowstar (Jun 18, 2012)

My marriage is more like Simply Am and Scarlett B, when I originally joined this site I thought something was wrong with my SO because I could see him as a nice guy. Over time I've learned that while he is nice, its not always equivalent to a doormat! He has definitely let more alpha show but moreso from ME taking a backseat/beta role--this was my choice though. I also realized how much more of a better partner I need to be and allow him to tske charge more. So its a mix of things. I think my SO is a genuinely nice guy, maybe more sensitive than the typical alpha guy, but I'm good eith that. He seems genuinely happy when I am happy, I know that matters a lot to him. But he draws the line for sure when he disagrees/disapproves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlphaProvider (Jul 8, 2013)

yellowstar said:


> My marriage is more like Simply Am and Scarlett B, when I originally joined this site I thought something was wrong with my SO because I could see him as a nice guy. Over time I've learned that while he is nice, its not always equivalent to a doormat! He has definitely let more alpha show but moreso from ME taking a backseat/beta role--this was my choice though. I also realized how much more of a better partner I need to be and allow him to tske charge more. So its a mix of things. I think my SO is a genuinely nice guy, maybe more sensitive than the typical alpha guy, but I'm good eith that. He seems genuinely happy when I am happy, I know that matters a lot to him. But he draws the line for sure when he disagrees/disapproves.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My parents can lead or follow and they told me they change it up every couple of years just because.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Northern Monkey said:


> This is my perspective on being a nice guy and sadly my stbx is apparently much more typical of the sort of relationship a nice guy gets into than the ones SA or SB describe.


I abused one or two really nice men,it was so bad I think about them from time to time and wish I could go back and change the way I behaved toward them.
All I can do now is make sure the good guy I have knows he is appreciated,loved,desired,and emotionally safe with me.


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## AlphaProvider (Jul 8, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I abused one or two really nice men,it was so bad I think about them from time to time and wish I could go back and change the way I behaved toward them.
> All I can do now is make sure the good guy I have knows he is appreciated,loved,desired,and emotionally safe with me.


Why did you do it?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

AlphaProvider said:


> Why did you do it?


I could list a ton of reasons but none of them are acceptable.There's never a good reason to treat someone poorly.


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## AlphaProvider (Jul 8, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I could list a ton of reasons but none of them are acceptable.There's never a good reason to treat someone poorly.


You where young and it was a "cool" thing to do. That's probably what it was.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

AlphaProvider said:


> You where young and it was a "cool" thing to do. That's probably what it was.


I was never concerned about being cool.I was a very disturbed young woman.

Anyway,back on topic...maybe we should do a list of nice guy vs good guy and sticky it somewhere


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I abused one or two really nice men,it was so bad I think about them from time to time and wish I could go back and change the way I behaved toward them.
> All I can do now is make sure the good guy I have knows he is appreciated,loved,desired,and emotionally safe with me.


They say our childhoods shape us in one way or another....(Just like the Nice Guy being Bullied)...

Although I have a primarily fiery temperament...The Choleric... It's funny  this article  says this >> "Most bullies are choleric, but few cholerics are bullies. Many will in fact stand up to those who bully others, rather than letting them get away with things." 

I believe my beliefs.....going to youth group in my teens.... having some very good examples in my life (my Grandmother)...hanging with a nicer crowd in high school....

Then my earlier experience seeing my Mother sleep around with User MEN who treated her like little more than a glory Hole...watching her emotionally self destruct in front of me...then running off with an Alcoholic with a life I would rather be dead then endure...I vowed to be very choosy in men... I had dreams....I wanted a good man who wanted the same things...who was responsible , honest and true. 

Then having a not so nice Step Mom who didn't want me around... (I was never bad... walked a straight line or I'd be grounded a month at a time).... all of this groomed me , helped me appreciate GOOD when it walked into my life... I was a more serious minded teen due to my upbringing. 

Between his background & mine... we both felt we fulfilled something in the other...and Love sprang from there.


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> and you regret this I take ??
> 
> There is something I have noticed on this forum... for the Men who have Climbed out of "being NICE" -in this negative sense.... who have turned around full circle...they REALLY were wearing some kind of *a mask*.. as I ASSUME here you wanted to lay those women....didn't you? I mean it was not an integrity thing going on in your head or against your personal morals.... you just allowed fear... whatever (being nice so they wouldn't THINK you were a Player)...to rule your behavior back then.
> 
> I've talked to my husband about this sort of thing...granted no women were knocking down his door...but I asked what if they WERE... would he have jumped, wanted them, enjoyed himself .....he shook his head.... told me he was never that type, he couldn't be with someone without the emotional.... so in his TRUE underlying make up....sex is something to be reserved for someone special... other wise you got your hand and you keep looking for that special one. Plus he always mentions STD's... no amount of risk , no matter how small...was worth it to him or would ever be. It's just another view...


i did what I thought people wanted me to do, and not what I wanted for myself. Of course I wanted to have sex with the stripper trying to climb into my lap as I was taking her home. 

But I prided myself on being a nice guy. A perfectly nice guy. I was always the guy making the sacrifice. Always trying to outnice all the other guys my wife had been with before me. That's not what i wanted to do or be, but I had no choice. I thought if I wasn't perfectly nice, no one would like me. (please note: the stripper was a different woman and is not my wife)

If I again found myself single, and those same sorts of scenarios popped up I wouldn't hesitate. There's nothing wrong with that. There's also nothing wrong with someone who feels they need an emotional bond.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

awake1 said:


> i did what I thought people wanted me to do, and not what I wanted for myself. *Of course I wanted to have sex with the stripper trying to climb into my lap as I was taking her home. *
> 
> But I prided myself on being a nice guy. A perfectly nice guy. I was always the guy making the sacrifice. Always trying to outnice all the other guys my wife had been with before me. *That's not what i wanted to do or be,* but I had no choice. I thought if I wasn't perfectly nice, no one would like me. (please note: the stripper was a different woman and is not my wife)


Thank you for your answer here Awake1 ........ I see what you are saying.... you were purely a man doing things he didn't want to do... or sacrificing what he REALLY wanted to do....putting on a pretend "NICE" exterior to hide the real lurking YOU - to win the approval of these women in your life, feeling you were upping the other men in this way. 

This will always backfire....as you will also have NO PEACE within yourself... ...forget the woman > this is a conflict. 

This does separate my husband in every way from these type men even IF he is well...genuinely a NICE man compared to the average men out there......this has never caused him anger, resentment or dislike for who he is....

He is the type that would not compromise his will or beliefs even if everyone around him left him in the dust..... He always liked himself and felt he was a good person... He was who he was and he offered what he was.....if that wasn't good enough.... such people can move right along. It may be more subtle and not in your face like some as he is quieter, but that *IS* and has always been his attitude. I do DIG this... 



> If I again found myself single, and those same sorts of scenarios popped up I wouldn't hesitate. There's nothing wrong with that. There's also nothing wrong with someone who feels they need an emotional bond.


 The only thing wrong with that is *MISrepresenting* yourself to another...leading her to believe you are something extra special/ different/ sweeter/ more Romantic /whatever over the next guy ....when you are really no different inside than any other Lust hungry man who will take what he can get ....

Every one of us deserves the truth...with no masks...that needs to be established in dating... no chick is all that important or man for that matter...if we can't be accepted for who we are at our core...this is where connection begins anyway. You miss it here (start faking it)... the foundation is already faulty. 

Really....MISrepresenting is as bad as the women who've pulled the dreaded "bait and switch" - when you think about it... 

IN this way....yes... *"Nice Guys"* are great Masqueraders. Nothing honorable about that..


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## AlphaProvider (Jul 8, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Thank you for your answer here Awake1 ........ I see what you are saying.... you were purely a man doing things he didn't want to do... or sacrificing what he REALLY wanted to do....putting on a pretend "NICE" exterior to hide the real lurking YOU - to win the approval of these women in your life, feeling you were upping the other men in this way.
> 
> This will always backfire....as you will also have NO PEACE within yourself... ...forget the woman > this is a conflict.
> 
> ...


And once again...

There are actually generous people out there in the world, different degrees of it... And scavengers who look for someone like this to use until they can't be used anymore, and different degrees of the scavengers.

Don't think all men have the same priorities and values, they don't. Most non-gay men do want to get laid but go about it differently. 

Some people want one night stands, others prefer a committed situation where they know the person.

Some don't want emotional connectivity, want to down talk the other person, and others prefer emotional connectivity and level communication.


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Thank you for your answer here Awake1 ........ I see what you are saying.... you were purely a man doing things he didn't want to do... or sacrificing what he REALLY wanted to do....putting on a pretend "NICE" exterior to hide the real lurking YOU - to win the approval of these women in your life, feeling you were upping the other men in this way.


Nah I turned down the stripper(s) (there was more than, they were friends, its a long story) not because I wanted to impress them. It was because I was doing what I thought my parents/religion/everyone else wanted me to do. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> This does separate my husband in every way from these type men even IF he is well...genuinely a NICE man compared to the average men out there......this has never caused him anger, resentment or dislike for who he is....


Unless he's low on testosterone, he'd LOVE to bang all kinds of women. He just doesn't because it's not worth the trouble it would cause, or because they wouldn't have him. And/or he keeps his vows. 

But that doesn't mean he doesn't WANT TO. He just WON'T. There's a subtle difference you're missing I think.


SimplyAmorous said:


> The only thing wrong with that is *MISrepresenting* yourself to another...leading her to believe you are something extra special/ different/ sweeter/ more Romantic /whatever over the next guy ....when you are really no different inside than any other Lust hungry man who will take what he can get ....


I think you jumped wildly ahead. I never, for example slept with or dated the strippers. So my being a nice guy wasn't somehow trying to manipulate them into sleeping with me. 

I didn't take advantage of those opportunities, even though I wanted to (Like all men do) because I thought it was wrong. 


SimplyAmorous said:


> Every one of us deserves the truth...with no masks...that needs to be established in dating... no chick is all that important or man for that matter...if we can't be accepted for who we are at our core...this is where connection begins anyway. You miss it here (start faking it)... the foundation is already faulty.


I think again you're skipping ahead. The problem with nice guys (the ones are are over nice) is that they do it for the wrong reason. They pride themselves on sacrifice because they strive to live up to the idea of some kind of moral paragon. Think a super hero. They are nice people who cry over spilled milk, who feel genuinely nice. But they do so giving up so much for themselves. 

Based on your post I'm thinking you missed the entire point: 

Nice guys aren't some kind of closet villain who strokes a white cat. The problem is they're TOO far the opposite of a villain. They aren't normal in that they put everyone else first. They care about others TOO much. They're TOO kind. They give TOO much. This is driven not by manipulative malice, but the misguided notion that, that's the only way they'll be loved. 

Their self esteem is so shot, they think all they have to offer the world is self sacrifice.

They lack a healthy balance between self sacrifice and self value.

Unfortunately, along the way they're abused, mistreated, used, and self sacrifice so often they view themselves as worthless. 

They leave too much for others and dont take enough for themselves. 

It's kindness bordering on disorder. These nice guys though, at least from what I've seen, don't cheat, or change or whatever. Until often the wife cheats or leaves him and it causes him to reexamine his life. This self sacrificial behavior doesn't stop when they "bagged" you or you move in together. 

They have problems facing conflict and so try to get what they want by being nice. Because they think that's what a woman wants. It's what they think everyone wants. Except them. Not that they want to be an *******, they want to stop giving all the time. (Like everyone else.)

They get tired of being mistreated or used but have no way to deal with it except by being even more nice. 

The intention is to make the woman as happy as she could be, at the cost of personal happiness. Nice guys gauge how they should feel on their spouse or girl friend. So when they're happy, the nice guy is allowed to be happy. When they're upset, the nice guy must be upset.

They of course have other traits, like passive aggressiveness, being vague about what they want or other such behaviors. We're talking specifically about one type of nice guy.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I was never concerned about being cool.I was a very disturbed young woman.
> 
> Anyway,back on topic...maybe we should do a list of nice guy vs good guy and sticky it somewhere


Mrs. SB, I look forward to it.. but I am actually more curious in hearing the reason why suddenly you realized you have abused those two nice guys and now regretted it. It's the flash of realization I am interested about. It would be very useful input for my next article regarding "good behavior during courting and within marriage"


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Mrs. SB, I look forward to it.. but I am actually more curious in hearing the reason why suddenly you realized you have abused those two nice guys and now regretted it. It's the flash of realization I am interested about. It would be very useful input for my next article regarding "good behavior during courting and within marriage"


therapy.that's it.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> therapy.that's it.


wow, is this some kind of "past flashback" therapy, where you were made aware of your past decisions?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> wow, is this some kind of "past flashback" therapy, where you were made aware of your past decisions?


I'm sorry,this isn't my thread to derail.
I really appreciate your interest and hope you find the content for your article in other various threads on the site. Take Care


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I'm sorry,this isn't my thread to derail.
> I really appreciate your interest and hope you find the content for your article in other various threads on the site. Take Care


Oy vay! *smacks forehead* Dear OP, very sorry for derailing your thread! And MRs. SB, thank you for your kind attention! Now let us return to our regular discussions


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

TiggyBlue said:


> I think there's a difference between a nice guy and a "nice guy".


:iagree:

"Nice Guys" are often not nice at all. They can be passive aggressive and don't have any backbone.

My SO is a nice guy in the true sense of the word, with the right amount of alpha and beta qualities.


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## AlphaProvider (Jul 8, 2013)

awake1 said:


> Nah I turned down the stripper(s) (there was more than, they were friends, its a long story) not because I wanted to impress them. It was because I was doing what I thought my parents/religion/everyone else wanted me to do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some men don't want to bang all of them, even if they could. That is reserved for their wife or girlfriend. But I understand what you are sayin, a great majority will be turned on by women out there, and choose not to.





awake1 said:


> I think you jumped wildly ahead. I never, for example slept with or dated the strippers. So my being a nice guy wasn't somehow trying to manipulate them into sleeping with me.
> 
> I didn't take advantage of those opportunities, even though I wanted to (Like all men do) because I thought it was wrong.
> 
> ...


They may be operating out of an old school provider and gentleman model. People this day and age have evolved to be able to use these people within the framework they operate.



awake1 said:


> Based on your post I'm thinking you missed the entire point:
> 
> Nice guys aren't some kind of closet villain who strokes a white cat. The problem is they're TOO far the opposite of a villain. They aren't normal in that they put everyone else first. They care about others TOO much. They're TOO kind. They give TOO much. This is driven not by manipulative malice, but the misguided notion that, that's the only way they'll be loved.
> 
> Their self esteem is so shot, they think all they have to offer the world is self sacrifice.


Some of them just like to treat their lady and friends well. It's just this day and age most people aren't deserving of this.



awake1 said:


> They lack a healthy balance between self sacrifice and self value.
> 
> Unfortunately, along the way they're abused, mistreated, used, and self sacrifice so often they view themselves as worthless.
> 
> They leave too much for others and dont take enough for themselves.


Jesus already died on a cross, there is no need for you to do it too... Understand how this world really works. Also keep in mind if you are living in an area where everyone is self-serving, selfish and conniving, someone mentioned NYC - it is a big world. There are communities where people live nearly like the Brady Bunch. You can move.




awake1 said:


> It's kindness bordering on disorder. These nice guys though, at least from what I've seen, don't cheat, or change or whatever. Until often the wife cheats or leaves him and it causes him to reexamine his life. This self sacrificial behavior doesn't stop when they "bagged" you or you move in together.


Someone who generally knows they like to treat their friends and lady special are going to take many dings to the head, until they re-evaluate their priorities and system of working.



awake1 said:


> They have problems facing conflict and so try to get what they want by being nice. Because they think that's what a woman wants. It's what they think everyone wants. Except them. Not that they want to be an *******, they want to stop giving all the time. (Like everyone else.)


One thing though. There are women who appreciate kindness, and it is an aphrodisiac to them. It lights their jets and lifts them, and they use this energy on their "nice guy", they love it!



awake1 said:


> They get tired of being mistreated or used but have no way to deal with it except by being even more nice.


Alternative is a completely self-serving inwardly focused jerk ball busting Alpha. For some reason people can be attracted to this, but it will wear your tire treads down to the belts if you try to be close to it for too long.



awake1 said:


> The intention is to make the woman as happy as she could be, at the cost of personal happiness. Nice guys gauge how they should feel on their spouse or girl friend. So when they're happy, the nice guy is allowed to be happy. When they're upset, the nice guy must be upset.


Its a great model when neither party takes advantage of the situation. It's just this day and age, users have evolved to be able to latch onto kind people like leaches and will completely drain them until they are dry.



awake1 said:


> They of course have other traits, like passive aggressiveness, being vague about what they want or other such behaviors. We're talking specifically about one type of nice guy.


There are many types. It's no problem being nice, kind and sweet to ones who love and appreciate you. The problem is in experience with dealing with worldly people and the games that are played, and not being able to communicate in a nice way with them - because they will hurt you.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

minimalME said:


> As I said before, my ex was/is very kind and sweet - and painfully passive.
> 
> That passivity in a man who doesn't lead or make decisions becomes (for lack of a better word) repulsive. There was no sexual attraction, and I've described it to others as feeling sexually dormant.
> 
> ...


You're relationship and your feelings towards him validate the vast majority of "nice guy" threads on this site.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

one_strange_otter said:


> I learned very early on that I was going to be the guy that girls wish they had married instead of going for the super macho *********s that treat them like crap. The one they say they want. Strong, loving, great with kids, stable, full time job.... I like being nice and helpful.
> 
> Just the other day I was walking to my car after cashing out at walmart and a grandma was unpacking her cart. She finished and turned to look and find the corral was up the row quite a bit. i just said "ma'am, let me take that for you. I'm already headed that way." I got a nice genuine smile and that gesture probably made her day. Yep, boy scout through and through this one is.


I don't think you understand the usage on this site.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

I think a lot of people in this thread are talking about actual decent nice guys rather than the "nice guys" we refer to on TAM.

There was nothing nice about the needy, clingy manipulation that went with my own being a "nice guy".


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Northern Monkey said:


> I think a lot of people in this thread are talking about actual decent nice guys rather than the "nice guys" we refer to on TAM.
> 
> There was nothing nice about the needy, clingy manipulation that went with my own being a "nice guy".


This might get bad comments but I enjoy SO's needy somewhat clingy side. if he was manipulative about it I wouldn't enjoy it though.
It makes me feel good and valued when he shows he needs me and wants me around all the time.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Kobo said:


> You're relationship and your feelings towards him validate the vast majority of "nice guy" threads on this site.


I wasn't trying to invalidate them.

My point was that the dynamic that exists in these types of marriages is not necessarily because of evil wives who deliberately set out to destroy the men they married.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Northern Monkey said:


> There was nothing nice about the needy, clingy manipulation that went with my own being a "nice guy".


Exactly.

If my schedule was to do laundry on Monday, he'd do it on Sunday - to be 'helpful'.

If I was cooking, he'd come into the kitchen and take over.

If I got up in the morning and began to make the bed, he'd rush from the bathroom to 'help'.

It became suffocating.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

I'm still physically affectionate and love a cuddle. I still have the positive side of it, but I am now confident enough to allow space to breathe and have done away with the covert contracts I used to so love.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I think this term gets twisted all the time.

I much prefer a nice man over a jerk man.

Many times when people refer to people who are "too nice" what they really mean is that these are people who are doormats, let everyone roll over them, don't stick up for themselves, don't have a backbone as someone said.

Those are very different things.

You can be nice and stand up for yourself at the same time.

Kindness is HAWT. Doormaty-ness (ha!) is NOT.

That is not gender-specific either.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

minimalME said:


> I wasn't trying to invalidate them.
> 
> My point was that the dynamic that exists in these types of marriages is not necessarily because of evil wives who deliberately set out to destroy the men they married.


Of course not which is why most advice given is for the man to change his behavior for himself and not to change a wife that may or may not be evil. It doesn't matter if a wife often speaks disrespectfully towards her husband because she is evil or because she is depressed. What matters is the husbands response to the behavior. The response determines if he's a "nice guy" or not.


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## AlphaProvider (Jul 8, 2013)

minimalME said:


> I wasn't trying to invalidate them.
> 
> My point was that the dynamic that exists in these types of marriages is not necessarily because of evil wives who deliberately set out to destroy the men they married.


There are a percentage of evil and conniving and self serving wives in the world, just like there is a percentage of evil and conniving and self serving husbands.

It's more than 1% and in some regions it may be approaching a majority.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Kobo said:


> Of course not which is why most advice given is for the man to change his behavior for himself and not to change a wife that may or may not be evil. It doesn't matter if a wife often speaks disrespectfully towards her husband because she is evil or because she is depressed. What matters is the husbands response to the behavior. The response determines if he's a "nice guy" or not.


Yes - changing his behavior for himself and developing a sense of self (learning his preferences - what he wants and doesn't want) is what he focuses on now, post-divorce.

I didn't often speak to my ex-husband disrespectfully, but I may well have been depressed. 

His response to just about anything during our marriage was extreme passivity. As I said before, I don't know if he was incapable of making decisions or if he simply chose not to.

The innocence in his eyes still comes across to me like helplessness.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

minimalME said:


> As I said before, my ex was/is very kind and sweet - and painfully passive.
> 
> That passivity in a man who doesn't lead or make decisions becomes (for lack of a better word) repulsive. There was no sexual attraction, and I've described it to others as feeling sexually dormant.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your posts on this thread. They come across to me as honest.
I have a few comments below.

1] "..T_hat passivity in a man who doesn't lead or make decisions becomes (for lack of a better word) repulsive. There was no sexual attraction, and I've described it to others as feeling sexually dormant.._"

Lost of men [ Western societies ] are conditioned to think the opposite. Of course issues of compatibility will always arise, but there are basic things women generally expect from their men.. Confidence and assertiveness is one of them.

2] ".._I had very little self awareness when I married. I was completely clueless about male/female dynamics_.."

Good that you took your share of responsibility. The truth is many people are clueless about male / female dynamics in relationships, but the key is a willingness to learn. That being so , people are generally defensive, and hate being told that what they believe to be accurate, is actually inaccurate.

3] "_..Now I know that I need male assertiveness to get turned on. My ex-husband is incapable of that level of aggression.._"

Generally , women are conditioned this way. Many refuse to admit it because they think it makes them appear weak and that is not a politically correct position to take.
However , a woman who willingly submits to her husband's leadership, even though she is just as capable , is not only strong , but happy and at peace with herself. She lives by her own rules, and doesn't give a F about ' political correctness."

4] "_..It's just not in his nature, and I could be wrong, but I don't believe any amount of therapy or working on himself will change that.._"

Sad, but what you say may very well be true of most " nice guys."
However , I do believe that the book _No More Nice Guy_ has some soul searching questions and good recomendations on this type of self destructive behaviour, and how it can be fix


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

awake1 said:


> Unless he's low on testosterone, *he'd LOVE to bang all kinds of women.* He just doesn't because it's not worth the trouble it would cause, or because they wouldn't have him. And/or he keeps his vows.
> 
> But that doesn't mean he doesn't WANT TO. He just WON'T. There's a subtle difference you're missing I think.


Really I don't think I am missing anything...I know most men are DOGS in their minds...how far they take it is the question.......I am actually worse than my husband is ....we talk about it all. 

I'm not stupid, I have probably read more books on Hormones (got a few on Testosterone too) & sex than you have probably seen on a bookshelf at one time....

He did have his Test checked 4 yrs ago....he is lower end for his age...but still normal. Right now I am running my lap top on a Generator cause our electric has been out for near 24 hrs, great thing to come home to after a little vacation that rained non stop, had to be the worst we ever had... 

He has an account here and I would LIKE him to speak for himself on this... because I realize by my speaking *for him*...you think I don't get it... he'll be the 1st to admit he likes to LOOK... heck yeah... but would he want to bang them.... NOPE!!! I can lead you to this thread and you can read his thoughts yourself on that sort of thing... Post #185 ...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/24519-way-men-really-think-13.html

I've even gotten mad at him before -for not having more fantasies..once when we were playing a Sex game..... something wild and wicked he could share with me...so No, he is not like the rest of you...but he's still ALL MAN. We have 6 kids, I thinK I can say this... 

He has every freedom in this world to speak his mind to me... without me putting him in the doghouse for it.. like many women would.

Maybe I don't belong on this thread, but the insinuation that ALL MEN are LIKE THIS... well... I just don't agree..... Not all men would BANG for the sake of banging if they could.. he was never religious either (that was MY hang up in the past)... but again... I need HIM to speak for himself.. in due time.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I’m with you CaribbeanMan. My opinion is women are more prone to defend nice guy traits as “good and politically correct”. Not offended as much as defensive if anyone says they are ‘bad traits’. Not necessarily wrong at all. What they do not defend or say or reinforce is those ‘manly’ traits are just as important even though it plays a significant role in attraction. That’s seen as sort of ‘old school’ I Love Lucy talk. 

Guys tend to do that alpha building in the locker rooms and out of view of women to see... Sort of hiding our ‘un-pc’ thoughts to be less called out and judged on. Funny, I see women do that to... So a group of ‘dudes’ together will talk cars, guns, and bravado stories (guys stuff). A group of women together talk about kids, relationships, and balancing work ?? (girl stuff that I’m allowed to overhear)... We all talk about sex and the opposite sex.  But that all happens behind closed doors and with “safe people”; the public persona we take on is different.

Culturally, the message seems to be that men should embrace more ‘beta’ traits and ‘alpha’ isn’t a good thing. The opposite is being applied to women: Embrace more ‘alpha’ type traits and make “beta women” a bad thing. 

The reality is that it all has to be balanced in an individual. Buy too much of the locker room talk or the political cultural speak, and things get out of whack.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Thanks for your posts on this thread. They come across to me as honest.


I appreciate that, and I agree with all your observations except the last - being 'fixable'. 

I mean, of course it's within the realm of possibilities, but after living with him for two decades, and knowing him for longer, I can't imagine it.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

I'm fixing myself. It's possible. Finding the motivation and having the epiphany required can take some doing though.


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Maybe I don't belong on this thread, but the insinuation that ALL MEN are LIKE THIS... well... I just don't agree..... Not all men would BANG for the sake of banging if they could.. he was never religious either (that was MY hang up in the past)... but again... I need HIM to speak for himself.. in due time.


I think if you had an honest survey with men, that aside from any moral considerations, if they could have sex with any woman they could choose would they do it? 

I would guess pretty much all of them would say yes. 

But I think anyone would agree there could be a few % that wouldnt for whatever reason. Perhaps your husband is in that few %, I don't know. (And really it doesn't matter. This is more about nice guys running away from themselves. I'm sure your husband is a great guy, and maybe he's madly in love. I don't know. If you misunderstood this as an attack on him it's not. We're talking about the male population, and nice guys in particular in broad strokes that don't apply to every individual.) 

The point is, having those feelings, embracing them and acting on them is a natural male impulse. It's normal for a guy to desire women in general, and if circumstances permit, to act on it. (As a single man of course. I would find it terrible for a man to cheat)

I didn't as a single man "embrace my masculinity". I didn't act like a guy even though I wanted to. After marriage it only got worse. From then on I worked, sacrificed and gave. Had I been more in touch with my back bone (or manning up) I never would have allowed such a situation to happen.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

minimalME said:


> I appreciate that, and I agree with all your observations except the last - being 'fixable'.
> 
> I mean, of course it's within the realm of possibilities, but after living with him for two decades, and knowing him for longer, I can't imagine it.


I understand your point.
With respect to it being " fixable", Sometimes I am an eternal optimist.
I just have this strong belief, almost like a creed, that people can , and often do change to improve themselves.

However , the reality is , it is never easily accomplished, and few even bother to try.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

awake1 said:


> *I didn't as a single man "embrace my masculinity". I didn't act like a guy even though I wanted to.* After marriage it only got worse. From then on I worked, sacrificed and gave. Had I been more in touch with my back bone (or manning up) I never would have allowed such a situation to happen.


 To the bolded in blue only....so if your late teens/early 20's son (for example) doesn't have sex while single....would it be an automatic >> HE wasn't embracing his masculinity also....as this is likely a part of your definition of a MAN ...so one who chooses to use sexual restraint, due to his beliefs, or whatever, what of him? Would you view him as less than a man? 

Many do believe like this... or I get that VIBE...even women do..I've seen the comments on this forum, if a guy brings them back to his pad, if he doesn't F*** her, she calls him a BOY. 

See...that belief is slamming of some good men... men who choose to use sexual restraint, for whatever reason. Whether their religious beliefs (some do see value in them)...... or for the special ness of it.....RARE that they may be in todays society.... but it is still a slamming none the less. 

There is a much smaller segment of males who use any form of restraint in the sexual ....they sleep with some, then call them derogatory names...Casual sex is rampant, and the family structure is dying. There are plenty of things that make a MAN...and ****ing *who* he wants *when* he wants ...is just not something that I feel deserves high praise. 

Possessing "Sexual Integrity" IS ... however. This is why I said you was misrepresenting yourself...because you really WANTED to do those things, you feel that is what makes you a MAN...as you expressed here. It was not wrong for you. 

Of course MEN have a raging sex drive....so do us women...yet there is nothing wrong with "restraint" if that is how one honestly feels or believes...even if you can not understand that-some may choose this. 

The problem with these discussions *for me* ...really is...the fact that MOST men and women, for that matter, DO judge people on stuff like this...I feel it is very unfortunate...these type of messages get mixed in and so many of them DO fit some of the Good guys...We didn't have intercourse till we were married... he has no regrets....I've asked, he'd do it again the same, I asked him not long ago..if we could do it all over again, would he have wanted me do BJ's while dating..he told me NO, he's happy with the way we was...and I was sitting there saying...well If I could go back.. IK WOULD [email protected]#$% So really...he was the type that respected me more for wanting to wait. He wasn't afraid.. or anything like that.. it's just what we wanted- at the time, we were true to ourselves in this. (this is different from your story, I get that!) 



Northern Monkey said:


> I think a lot of people in this thread are talking about actual decent nice guys rather than the "nice guys" we refer to on TAM.
> 
> There was nothing nice about the needy, clingy manipulation that went with my own being a "nice guy".


I realize this ...and I am one of those...but you see... the *actions *may be SO VERY similar.....but the *motivations* behind them ARE different...is it really outrageous if a man WANTS to Please and DO for his wife -because it makes him happy [email protected]#$% 

Or that the notion such a man would want to spend a great deal of his time with his wife...shower her with attention...and his children....like what the hell is wrong with him, doesn't he have a LIFE....it seems many insinuate that such a man MUST have a dog collar around his neck or something.... 

Even the notion of man being best friends with a chick seems to be against Masculine maleness...he is taught to be a LOVER before a friend... Wasn't that way with us..it all turned out right...and good. 




> *Racer said*: Guys tend to do that alpha building in the locker rooms and out of view of women to see... Sort of hiding our ‘un-pc’ thoughts to be less called out and judged on.


 Mine never joined in that sort of talk in the locker room... he didn't care for men who acted like that, or any sign of disrespecting women, does this make him gay? 

I mean seriously, are men NOT MEN because they are not like these sort of men? He doesn't care for the CRUDE sexual talk some of the guys at work engage in, he will sit among some of it... a word or 2 , he might say >> "You're a sick basta**" ......but then he will also walk away. He tells me how foul they are.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

SA its like you say, the motivation.

When I was single, for all my words to the contrary, the reason I didn't get it on with all and sundry wasn't morals, it was fear of rejection.

When I "did for and cared for" stbx, while for a while it made me feel good, I wasnt getting my needs met in return and it became a covert contract. If only I can make her happy then she will do the same for me. When it failed I tried to be even more nice, to tow the line even more.

I lay down in stages. Not because of love but because of fear.

None of that means other men are all the same but I've met very few whose engagement or lack of, with the opposite sex isnt determined by confidence and level of fear.

Once with someone that changes. Even for me. I became more confident that if I really wanted to I could "pull", I had done it with stbx afterall. It was then and not before that morality came into play. 

I had the offer a couple of times and while on a primal level I wanted to, I never once considered acting on that.


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

SA aside from macho bravado, if a single woman and man want to have sex, but the guy refuses for self confidence reasons, its a problem not a virtue.

Now if a man just isnt like that, no worries.

Monkey has it right though, its the motivation behind the actions. Nice guys feel an abundance of fear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> This might get bad comments but I enjoy SO's needy somewhat clingy side. if he was manipulative about it I wouldn't enjoy it though.
> It makes me feel good and valued when he shows he needs me and wants me around all the time.


Funny isn't? That a man might be needy and that his wife may actually have power over him at a deep emotional and sexual level is considered beta all too often. Protect yourself, your wife and family, sex her plenty to prove your own masculinity and treat her well but take no **** from her or anybody, and keep your sex rank up just in case -- it'll make your wife desire yoiu more anyway.

The game of being alpha isn't trivial but if that's what sustains the marriage, good luck.

There are so many times I truly need to lean on my wife for support, and if i can't get that emotional loving and caring from her it would hurt me. If I couldn't share that with her when i needed it, what would our marriage be worth?


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## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

awake1 said:


> SA aside from macho bravado, if a single woman and man want to have sex, but the guy refuses for self confidence reasons, its a problem not a virtue.
> 
> Now if a man just isnt like that, no worries.
> 
> ...


Yes it is, and if that's the case the man needs some counseling to get him out of his rut. That's not being a nice guy that's a man with no confidence, which can be for ALL sorts of reasons.


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## SA's husband (Apr 9, 2012)

ravioli said:


> Everytime I read a post on nice guys, it seems as though women are more offended by this notion. Especially if they are with a nice guy at the moment? Why is that? I find many men accept this term and are more open about their transition from one where women feel that it's more of an attack on them and who they are as a person for choosing one.
> 
> I don't understand. If you have a nice guy why not be proud? What is it about having a preference for a nice guy that you need to justify your actions for dating one or just defending one period?


My wife does let this type of thing bother her more than it should, probably because on the one hand I am the good, but on the other I had too much passivity in our past, but we're in a great place now. 

This is how it backfired on me, I wanted more sex, she was more interested in the kids and reading. I still treated her like my queen but I wanted her to feel how I was feeling, so I tried to back away sexually. But it didn't work, cause when she came after me, I couldn't resist, she still got what she wanted. She wasn't aware of my turmoil. I let that go on for years. I just felt she should want this hot body. I guess she did, just not enough for me. I didn't want to rock the boat, she's told me now I should have rocked it like a hurricane.


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## SA's husband (Apr 9, 2012)

awake1 said:


> But I think anyone would agree there could be a few % that wouldnt for whatever reason. Perhaps your husband is in that few %, I don't know.
> 
> The point is, having those feelings, embracing them and acting on them is a natural male impulse. It's normal for a guy to desire women in general, and if circumstances permit, to act on it. (As a single man of course. I would find it terrible for a man to cheat)
> 
> I didn't as a single man "embrace my masculinity". I didn't act like a guy even though I wanted to. After marriage it only got worse. From then on I worked, sacrificed and gave. Had I been more in touch with my back bone (or manning up) I never would have allowed such a situation to happen.


I can only speak for myself, I never wanted to bang a variety of women, I was very particular. If a playboy playmate was coming for me, lust would have probably won even though I wouldn't have felt it was right. There are std's out there, Hustler gave me a graphic education in my teens. If there was any fear, it was here, those will change your life forever. Sex should not be degraded to that, no risk is worth taking for 5 seconds of pleasure. 

It is possible to only want one partner as your soul mate. Having sex should bond two people together. If this makes me in the few % of men, I am one of those.

My wife shouldn't get upset over these things, but I love her for it anyway, I'm happy she wanted my type.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

It's so awesome that the two of you were able to navigate these issues successfully!



SA's husband said:


> I just felt she should want this hot body.


:rofl:



> I didn't want to rock the boat, she's told me now I should have rocked it like a hurricane.


I want my boat rocked, dammit.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

minimalME said:


> It's so awesome that the two of you were able to navigate these issues successfully!


  MinimalME ... but you know what the sad truth of this matter really is... another reason I still get my feathers ruffled in these discussions.....My husband wouldn't have ever changed... I just know this... he was HAPPY enough to continue on that same path... not getting all he wanted but thankful anyhow for what was...

*I CHANGED*...*the WIFE WOKE UP.*... realized  what have we been missing all these years.. There were moments I was Pi$$ed.... it was the closest I ever came to resenting HIM....learning how he HID this from me....the pieces coming together how we missed each other....it never should have been... I always loved sex....I had a right to know he was feeling like that... then motivated to the high heavens to make up for it all. 

Granted....this is NOT the normal story on TAM by any means... it has only a small measure of the pain most of the "Nice Guy" stories are made of...But still....I think WOMEN can do more to encourage, give a listening ear, try to understand -where their "nice guys" are ... that's just my mindset on this.... not that this has an audience here... *it doesn't! * So really, it's fruitless for me to go on about it. It's just another perspective. 

Of course I can see all the talk to get the man more assertive, show boundaries, tell her what for! 

For us...all it would have taken is more Heartfelt communication...he didn't have to show me his balls....THAT's IT... I wasn't an ogre, I genuinely loved him and wouldn't have wanted him to be hurting ....because he treated me beautifully from the day we met. Couldn't ask for a better man, even if he wasn't one with a hyped confidence, more the humble type. 

We talked about everything else under the sun, but very rarely sex...he satisfied me in every way ... I guess there wasn't much to say! Ridiculous as it was. 

I've told him if he gets *passive *on me ever again, I am going to do this  



> I want my boat rocked, dammit.


Yep...if only he talked like THAT back in the day...What FUN [email protected]#$% He was too "respectful" in sex...that is not the way to go...show me some overt lust baby! I like your smileys


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> MinimalME ... but you know what the sad truth of this matter really is... another reason I still get my feathers ruffled in these discussions.....My husband wouldn't have ever changed... I just know this... he was HAPPY enough to continue on that same path... not getting all he wanted but thankful anyhow for what was...
> 
> *I CHANGED*...*the WIFE WOKE UP.*... realized  what have we been missing all these years.. There were moments I was Pi$$ed.... it was the closest I ever came to resenting HIM....learning how he HID this from me....the pieces coming together how we missed each other....it never should have been... I always loved sex....I had a right to know he was feeling like that... then motivated to the high heavens to make up for it all.
> 
> ...


See...I can totally identify with what you've said. When I read what you write, your tone resonates with me. Our marriages sound very similar.

The conversations about our sex life were initiated by me. When we would talk, at the time, they seemed productive and that we were on the same page, wanting the same things, both willing to work on the problems. But then nothing.

And I'm sure he was in pain. During our separation, he told me he had used pornography and masturbation throughout our marriage - which really upset me, because he chose to hide and deal with _our_ problem on his own, in his way, without saying a word to me.

I feel like I did try. I did want to understand. And he did treat me well, and I was respectful to him. But, nevertheless, it was like living with another woman. And he knew that. He could see that something was very wrong. But neither one of us knew what to do about it in a way that would bring about real changes. 

Last Christmas, we were having a discussion about the holiday schedule, and I said, 'Just tell me how you'd like to handle it, and that's what we'll do.' And his eyes just filled up with tears and he shook his head. 

I think our situation is an extreme, and I think it goes beyond being nice or doormatish. I've often wondered if he's a high functioning autistic. It's like he only has one mode - friend. 

Does your husband parent? My ex doesn't. During our marriage, I thought we were making all these decisions together, but now I know it was all me. Now, what I call parenting, he calls policing. That means, as far as he's concerned, the children have no bedtime, no curfew, no limits on TV, movies, music or computer. They don't have to keep their rooms clean, etc. For whatever reason, he doesn't see the need for that leadership.

But somewhere along the line, he chose to start going to therapy. So, I know he's trying.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

minimalME said:


> The conversations about our sex life were initiated by me. When we would talk, at the time, they seemed productive and that we were on the same page, wanting the same things, both willing to work on the problems. But then nothing.


 Not sure what your sexual issues are - or have been...but I am curious to hear more. 

I was totally satisfied for 19 yrs... though most would say we were vanilla... for us, it was "electric" anyway...he is purely a Making Love man. And I a romantic.. so what was there to complain about. I was somewhat repressed and masterbation talk seemed taboo to me...so we didn't go there. 

Once I opened all of this up (4 yrs ago) -due to having an explosive sex drive increase which landed me on forums to yak about it (better than going to a porn site)..... it's been eye opening... new adventures.... he was willing to go along with anything I wanted.. or try... but I am the more creative one who gets the ball rolling.... I wanted more sex, I went after it with everything in me... 

What we learned through this was ....HE is turned on by aggressive women... can I say.. I FIT that very nicely... I even like to play the Seducer who will bring him to his knees...We took a lover test once.. we were the perfect match -even if it was a little backwards. 



> And I'm sure he was in pain. *During our separation, he told me he had used pornography and masturbation throughout our marriage - which really upset me, because he chose to hide and deal with our problem on his own, in his way, without saying a word to me*.


 Oh my goodness, our story couldn't be further from this.. I learned my husband NEVER masterbated (but 1 time our entire marriage - a story there even).... he told me he felt like that would be "cheating"... This was a moment I will never forget .....I looked at him and said... "well then , I am a cheater!"... .we were both shocked ! 

I then said with the serious of faces...."How in the hell did you do that -I'd go stark raving freaking mad and blow the roof off the house" had I been in his shoes... This explains why he grew some resentment towards me -cause he didn't masterbate. I remember touching him- I could feel the blood rushing to his organ like it was being inflated.. I do believe him. 

In this way, I felt extrememely Loved I suppose ...but how he managed to put himself down like that -- was insanity to me. And there I was taking care of myself in the middle of the night sometimes feeling HE wouldn't want woke up - all because we never talked about sex!! That's all we talk about about now...ha ha 



> I feel like I did try. I did want to understand. And he did treat me well, and I was respectful to him. But, nevertheless, it was like living with another woman. And he knew that. He could see that something was very wrong. But neither one of us knew what to do about it in a way that would bring about real changes.


 So communicating with your husband , allowing him to feel completely SAFE with you...has not brought about change... 

What was his upbringing like ? Any trauma? What is his temperament, have you ever taken these tests... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ments-our-spouses-better-understand-them.html

If he is primarily a Phlegmatic (like my husband is)... he can still be a well balanced man -but it is one of their WEAKNESSES to be on the passive side...the Cholerics are the natural "take charge very decisive "/ born Leaders ....

With any temperament, we have Strengths and weaknesses... to learn what they are...will help us understand 0urselves... -then to overcome...tiny steps. Helps when the spouse is cheering us on. 



> Last Christmas, we were having a discussion about the holiday schedule, and I said, 'Just tell me how you'd like to handle it, and that's what we'll do.' And his eyes just filled up with tears and he shook his head.


 What was the situation? what did you want handled...that would cause a grown man to cry before you ? 



> I think our situation is an extreme, and I think it goes beyond being nice or doormatish. I've often wondered if he's a *high functioning autistic. *It's like he only has one mode - friend.


 Is this in his family genes... what was his growing up experience like? Was he overly religious? We have friends with a son with that diagnosis. He is very obsessive -whatever he is into, but very detached from human emotions so it seems, he doesn't grasp them .. misses the signals, doesn't respond right. 



> *Does your husband parent?* My ex doesn't. During our marriage, I thought we were making all these decisions together, but now I know it was all me. Now, what I call parenting, he calls policing. That means, as far as he's concerned, the children have no bedtime, no curfew, no limits on TV, movies, music or computer. They don't have to keep their rooms clean, etc. For whatever reason, he doesn't see the need for that leadership.


 My husband will yell at the kids with authority when he gets pi$$ed off.. oh yeah.. though I am meaner - if we had to compare... I can be a real BEAR. It's more like..."YOU wait till MOM comes home" at our house... 

Dad is more the softy... but honestly this works for us.. he helps them with their homework...I just don't have the patience... We ARE on the same page in parenting...I've never felt he leaves it all to me..... Our children respect him... 

I do feel he should PUSH them a bit more though... like we have 5 sons.. .he doesn't even ask them to help when he is working on a vehicle... he doesn't want to BOTHER them & take them away from what they are doing....(being too considerate again).... so I do it....I kick them out of the house and say..."Go help your dad - learn something!"... so between the both of us...we bring that balance... 



> But somewhere along the line, he chose to start going to therapy. So, I know he's trying.


 I haven't read all of your posts but I am a bit interested in you & his journey... to hear more MinimalME. 

I know my husband is free from any personality disorders...but he is a more passive temperament ... he is a responsible kind loving faithful "honest to a fault" dedicated hard working loving father & giving husband who would lay down his life for us all -we all feel very blessed to have him in our lives....... the small issues I have had with him are a pebble in a bucket compared to some of the stuff I have read on this forum.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Not sure what your sexual issues are - or have been...but I am curious to hear more.


Sexual issues = the bare minimum of sex. I wasn't keeping track, but if we had sex more than 50 times during our 20 year marriage, I would be surprised.

Sex was like an invisible wall between us, and it was the only topic that seemed uncomfortable to talk about. So, we just didn't - except for the discussions I mentioned before. 

We never learned each other, we didn't flirt, we weren't adventurous. I asked him once to share his sexual fantasies with me - he declined. And the last time I tried to initiate, and he refused, I mentally decided I was done.



> What we learned through this was ....HE is turned on by aggressive women... can I say.. I FIT that very nicely... I even like to play the Seducer who will bring him to his knees...We took a lover test once.. we were the perfect match -even if it was a little backwards.


Maybe he's turned on by more aggressive women. I don't know. I wouldn't mind that occasionally to mix things up.

But I'm more responsive in nature. As in - flip me around, push me up against the wall, hike up my skirt and rip off my undies. Please.



> I learned my husband NEVER masterbated (but 1 time our entire marriage - a story there even).... he told me he felt like that would be "cheating"... This was a moment I will never forget .....I looked at him and said... "well then , I am a cheater!"... .we were both shocked !


The masturbating in and of itself was never problem. Gosh! Let me watch! 

The problem was that he was using it as a substitute for a sexual relationship with me.



> So communicating with your husband , allowing him to feel completely SAFE with you...has not brought about change...


The freedom was there, but I don't think it was taken advantage of - by either of us. I don't believe either one of us felt safe.



> What was his upbringing like ? Any trauma? What is his temperament, have you ever taken these tests...


We both came from dysfunctional homes. His mom is very manipulative and controlling, and his dad worked away from home a lot and had many affairs. I don't know if there was any trauma, and I've read about the test you mentioned, but we didn't take those.

I've written about my past elsewhere.

One thing that's always been frustrating to me is that our pre-marital counseling was so bad. It was just going through the motions, and during one session, I got emotional and wanted to discuss my upbringing, and it was completely blown off.



> What was the situation? what did you want handled...that would cause a grown man to cry before you ?


We both struggle with boundaries. Since the divorce was initiated by me, I've tended to follow his lead in terms of our level of communication, and I take him at his word. But this has always been a problem - it seems to take a lot of effort for him to know what he wants. I don't know how to explain it beyond that. 

The year before last, he asked me if I wanted to spend Christmas together with the children, instead of alternating Thanksgiving and Christmas the way we've done in the past. I said okay, and we had a lovely day. 

But the next year (this past holiday season), he admitted he actually hadn't wanted to do that. He said he did, but he didn't. That's when I told him to just tell me what he wanted, and I would agree to it. 

He teared up because a decision as simple as that seemed agonizing, and it's just as frustrating to him as to others.



> Is this in his family genes... what was his growing up experience like? Was he overly religious? We have friends with a son with that diagnosis. He is very obsessive -whatever he is into, but very detached from human emotions so it seems, he doesn't grasp them .. misses the signals, doesn't respond right.


This was just a passing thought (the autism) on my part - trying to figure out what's wrong. We are Christians, but I don't see us as being overly religious. He has had some obsessiveness, as have I. 



> Dad is more the softy... but honestly this works for us.. he helps them with their homework...I just don't have the patience... We ARE on the same page in parenting...I've never felt he leaves it all to me..... Our children respect him...


It didn't work for us. I wanted him to lead, to make decisions, to offer suggestions. I don't know if our children respect him, but they do adore him. 



> I know my husband is free from any personality disorders...but he is a more passive temperament ... he is a responsible kind loving faithful "honest to a fault" dedicated hard working loving father & giving husband who would lay down his life for us all -we all feel very blessed to have him in our lives....... the small issues I have had with him are a pebble in a bucket compared to some of the stuff I have read on this forum.


All the compliments you've given your husband here, I could say the same.

And, like you, I end up feeling like our problems are very small compared to what others on this site go through.

For all our issues, we did have a peaceful (if not asexual) marriage, a peaceful divorce, and now we get along as well as we did during our marriage - just less contact.

It's weird, but that's the way it is for us.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

minimalME said:


> Sexual issues = the bare minimum of sex.* I wasn't keeping track, but if we had sex more than 50 times during our 20 year marriage, I would be surprised.
> *
> Sex was like an invisible wall between us, and it was the only topic that seemed uncomfortable to talk about. So, we just didn't - except for the discussions I mentioned before.
> 
> We never learned each other, we didn't flirt, we weren't adventurous. I asked him once to share his sexual fantasies with me - he declined. And the last time I tried to initiate, and he refused, I mentally decided I was done.


 Oh My... if you have any sex drive at all, I do NOT understand or could comprehend HOW you stayed with this man all these years.......I am one who feels it is harder on a woman to be rejected sexually...it's not nature's way...as we are meant to be those "objects of desire"....and the man the pursuer.... An Asexual marriage... I can not even imagine the resentment you must feel , or you have just become NUMB....after all of these years, not having these needs met. 



> Maybe he's turned on by more aggressive women. I don't know. I wouldn't mind that occasionally to mix things up.
> 
> But I'm more responsive in nature. As in - flip me around, push me up against the wall, hike up my skirt and rip off my undies. Please.


 And you've NEVER gotten it with him -EVER...was the sex Ever good -showing that deep desire/ wanting you...did something happen, change along the way? What brought the 2 of you together initially ? 

I guess all of this is water under the bridge now... as you are divorcing ...



> The masturbating in and of itself was never problem. Gosh! Let me watch!
> 
> The problem was that he was using it as a substitute for a sexual relationship with me.


 Terrible addiction, can suck the life right out of any marriage ....this is just NEVER NEVER NEVER OK. INTIMACY is life giving... it is the music of our bodies, like a beautiful love song can sing to our souls. 



> The freedom was there, but I don't think it was taken advantage of - by either of us.* I don't believe either one of us felt safe.*


 20 yrs is an awfully long time to be together.. did you and he ever fight, have conflict? So you both feared vulnerability then? I did a thread on that a while back...a great video to watch on this ...and a book suggestion ....CLICK HERE



> We both came from dysfunctional homes. His mom is very manipulative and controlling, and his dad worked away from home a lot and had many affairs....
> 
> One thing that's always been frustrating to me is that our pre-marital counseling was so bad. It was just going through the motions, and during one session, I got emotional and wanted to discuss my upbringing, and it was completely blown off.


 Just a Preacher I assume.... Sorry that happened to you both. This should have been opened up, talked about....that was just wrong. Sounds you both could have used some counseling a long time ago - to overcome what has clouded you both coming from these dysfunctional upbringings.. 



> The year before last, he asked me if I wanted to spend Christmas together with the children, instead of alternating Thanksgiving and Christmas the way we've done in the past. I said okay, and we had a lovely day.
> 
> But the next year (this past holiday season), he admitted he actually hadn't wanted to do that. He said he did, but he didn't. That's when I told him to just tell me what he wanted, and I would agree to it.


 Speaking out of 2 sides of his mouth then, says one thing to your face...but means something completely contrary.... and you learn about it after the fact... Yeah... it's like an attempt at blame shifting but it was never your fault... I would be fuming too.. we need a straight and honest answer when we ask a question...or if you get "I need some time to think about it".. but still it must come -intact.. in a short period of time.... 



> He teared up because a decision as simple as that seemed agonizing, and it's just as frustrating to him as to others.


 WOW...Any chance he had any brain injuries in his past... I read a book on the Brain once...how even a small brain injury can alter one's behavior...and such things can cause turmoil in a marriage... The spouse has no idea what is causing the problems..sometimes specific meds can help, depending on what section of the brain has been affected. Just throwing that out! 

Books like this >>  Change Your Brain, Change Your Life: The Breakthrough Program for Conquering Anxiety, Depression, Obsessiveness, Anger, and Impulsiveness - Daniel G. Amen: Books



> This was just a passing thought (the autism) on my part - trying to figure out what's wrong. *We are Christians, but I don't see us as being overly religious. He has had some obsessiveness, as have I.*


 And one of his obsessions is Porn... if he takes his religion seriously at all... he likely feels a tremendous amount of Guilt /shame for his porn usage which could cause him to feel hopeless without getting a handle on it. I don't know... just guessing. 



> And, like you, I end up feeling like our problems are very small compared to what others on this site go through.
> 
> For all our issues, we did have a peaceful (if not asexual) marriage, a peaceful divorce, and now we get along as well as we did during our marriage - just less contact.
> 
> It's weird, but that's the way it is for us.


 I guess if sex was not a huge thing... a near Asexual marriage ...and you can speak kindly [email protected]#$^ 

I guess I am one of those people that feel...SEX may be less than 10% of a marriage, but when it is BAD, non existent, unfulfilling...it will FEEL like 90% of your marital problems, it will taint ALL good that is.......I'd say you are very gracious to give this assessment... I would not be able to had I been in your shoes for 20 very long years of what you just described here.... No matter how much good there was outside of those issues. 

You must be a very patient woman indeed [email protected]#$ Thank you for sharing!


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Just to be clear, we've been divorced for around three and half years now, and separated a year prior to that. So all this was in the recent past, but it's not fresh.



SimplyAmorous said:


> Oh My... if you have any sex drive at all, I do NOT understand or could comprehend HOW you stayed with this man all these years.......I am one who feels it is harder on a woman to be rejected sexually...it's not nature's way...as we are meant to be those "objects of desire"....and the man the pursuer.... An Asexual marriage... I can not even imagine the resentment you must feel , or you have just become NUMB....after all of these years, not having these needs met.


It was a dysfunctional relationship. And I don't feel any resentment now. But I do think we both became numb. I felt basically sexually dormant for the majority of the time.

As I said before, because of my history, I think I was looking for a safe man. And that's what I got. He was sexually safe. 

He and I both had a very high tolerance for an extremely unhealthy situation.



> And you've NEVER gotten it with him -EVER...


No. The scenario that I described to you never happened between us. That's why I said it's very hard for me to picture that changing.



> was the sex Ever good -showing that deep desire/ wanting you...


No, not really.



> Did something happen, change along the way?


No. We're both fairly consistent people. 



> What brought the 2 of you together initially ?


We met in college. 



> 20 yrs is an awfully long time to be together.. did you and he ever fight, have conflict?


Yes. It was a long time. We only had a handful of fights. Not really any conflict. 

But inside, there were times I felt like a pressure cooker about to explode. 



> So you both feared vulnerability then?


That's fair to say.



> Speaking out of 2 sides of his mouth then, says one thing to your face...but means something completely contrary.... and you learn about it after the fact... Yeah... it's like an attempt at blame shifting but it was never your fault... I would be fuming too.


But see, this sort of description I feel is unfair to him. It makes him seem malicious, and that's not how he is.

When I say that I was dealing with someone who's painfully passive, that's exactly what I mean. 



> WOW...Any chance he had any brain injuries in his past...


No, I don't think so. 

So many relationships are dysfunctional. Ours was just our unique form of brokenness.

I don't blame him anymore than I blame myself, and I'm not angry anymore.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

minimalME said:


> Yes. It was a long time. We only had a handful of fights. Not really any conflict.
> 
> But inside, there were times I felt like a pressure cooker about to explode.


 I think your exploding would have been better than holding that in.... anytime a friend, family member tells me they have found the love of their life...one of the 1st questions I ask them is... have you had any good FIGHTS yet....until they do, I just think people can't know each other...resolving conflict is HUGE....it's necessary along the way.... so they won't feel like that pressure cooker - ready to explode ....in the conflict, they can dig up that resentment seed....and move on to a better place. 



> this sort of description I feel is unfair to him. It makes him seem malicious, and that's not how he is.
> 
> When I say that I was dealing with someone who's painfully passive, that's exactly what I mean.


 That is some passive I have never come across.. that is extreme !! 

I guess I view *passive* as not being all that assertive, but when asked a question, the man still responds honestly (this is all I have ever dealt with)

What you describe in your ex is something completely different to me..it's like he FREEZES, emotionally shakes inside and will say anything to just get through the moment.... isn't this beyond passive? And it doesn't sound like he had any "aggressiveness" with his passive traits either? 

Not sure how he would be classified as [email protected]# I did find this >>

 The Five Levels of Passive Aggressive Behavior
Procrastinator? Excuse maker? What kind of passive aggressive are you?



> So many relationships are dysfunctional. Ours was just our unique form of brokenness.
> 
> I don't blame him anymore than I blame myself, and I'm not angry anymore.


 Well it's good you have let this go...I hope you both find peace.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I think your exploding would have been better than holding that in.... anytime a friend, family member tells me they have found the love of their life...one of the 1st questions I ask them is... have you had any good FIGHTS yet....until they do, I just think people can't know each other...resolving conflict is HUGE....it's necessary along the way.... so they won't feel like that pressure cooker - ready to explode ....in the conflict, they can dig up that resentment seed....and move on to a better place.


You're absolutely right, and it's something I pay a lot of attention to now. 



> That is some passive I have never come across.. that is extreme !!
> 
> I guess I view *passive* as not being all that assertive, but when asked a question, the man still responds honestly (this is all I have ever dealt with)
> 
> What you describe in your ex is something completely different to me..it's like he FREEZES, emotionally shakes inside and will say anything to just get through the moment.... isn't this beyond passive? And it doesn't sound like he had any "aggressiveness" with his passive traits either?


I really couldn't say what he was thinking. He couldn't put it into words for me, but it was hard for him, and he knew there was a problem. 



> Well it's good you have let this go...I hope you both find peace.


Thank you.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I think people tend to get their feathers ruffled when the term "nice guy" gets thrown around simply because the labels rarely describe someone with 100% accuracy. Most people have some degree of "doormat", "niceness", "passive/aggressiveness", childishness, aggressiveness, etc... Because of this, what some women think of as a "good man" who treats his family right, others will interpret the man's actions as being a doormat. It really depends on the relationship and how the wife responds to her "good man" husband. IMHO, there isn't any problem with a man who passive and generally nice so long as the woman knows who she is marrying and fully understands that she'll be the one more in control in many situations. 

Why I think women resent the term being thrown around is because of the natural flow of discourse on this forum. Once a man is affixed with the label "nice guy", it doesn't take long for one or more posters to follow up with questions/comments like "how much is the wife taking advantage of the husband", "how dare she be such a controlling witch!", "she'll cheat on you without a doubt - just give it time..." and other statements like this. In some cases these phrases are accurate, but in many they are not. Unfortunately, too many BS's will project their personal experiences onto the thread at hand and will assume that the situation is exactly like the crappy one they endured. 

The bottom line comes to how well you get to know your serious BF/GF before you commit to marriage. Granted, people can always change and this is far from fool proof. But you shift the odds of your marriage being a successful one if you carefully think about who you want to be with, what type of person makes you happiest and truly getting to know your SO. What often happens is that people are attracted to someone, realize up front that there are a lot of traits that do not fit what they want in a man/woman, but they feel that "I can change this person for the better", so I'll take the plunge. 

It's the lack of up front compatibility that causes a lot of the problems in marriages that involve "nice guys". 

Also, people who are truly doormats are "broken" in some fashion. If you can ferret out that a person is a doormat early on, just move on. Doormats are as broken as people seeking attention at all costs an people who feel strong attractions to abusers because they feel like they "deserve" to be treated poorly.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted by *Plan 9 from OS*:
> 
> What often happens is that people are attracted to someone, realize up front that there are a lot of traits that do not fit what they want in a man/woman, *but they feel that "I can change this person for the better"*, so I'll take the plunge.


 this happens far too often on either side.. whether it's the more aggressive -unemotional type guy who likes to hang with his buddies... the GF / fiance thinking she is going to TAME him and mold him into a settled down family man after the vows...or turning the laid back homebody type into a Partier / a social butterfly.... . Know what works for you...don't settle. I often think the differing temperaments can work fine if *respect*/ *Attraction* is there and similar *love languages*, *enjoyments*, *goals*... 



> It's the lack of *up front compatibility* that causes a lot of the problems in marriages that involve "nice guys".


 with a couple Gf's yesterday...hanging out swimming ...3 of us basking in the sun talking about our husbands...of course... 2 of them watching the kids for us (good fathers).....all 3 of us were the more outgoing/ social types...and each one of us married an introvert, geared more on the NICE spectrum..... we talked how opposites attract many times, one said sometimes she thinks where there is not enough difference -it can cause problems too. What we were really talking about was that "compatibility". 



> Also, people who are truly doormats are "broken" in some fashion. If you can ferret out that a person is a doormat early on, just move on. Doormats are as broken as people seeking attention at all costs an people who feel strong attractions to abusers because they feel like they "deserve" to be treated poorly.


 I've never thought of a comparison like this...but really... how very true! 

Your entire Post, I wanted to outline all of it in BLUE...What an excellent summary .....and conclusion to this thread...you said it all..... I resonate with your every word Plan 9 from OS !


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## InspireMe (Jul 17, 2013)

Women always hear that the nice guy is often times "Friend Zoned" by women or that the Nice Guy won't be around long because us women turn the good guys into A-Holes. So this is the only reason I could think of that they get offended by the term nice guy. 

I on the other hand love my Nice Guy. He may not be so handy at home, but he is my strength. I've been through my fair share of the A-Holes and it has made me appreciate my Nice Guy even more.


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

InspireMe said:


> Women always hear that the nice guy is often times "Friend Zoned" by women or that the Nice Guy won't be around long because us women turn the good guys into A-Holes. So this is the only reason I could think of that they get offended by the term nice guy. .


Very few women deserve "nice guys" They will put you on the throne of their life and devote themselves to you. If you respond in kind I can imagine having the best possible relationship you ever could. 

But on the other hand, most women don't deserve someone that worships them. These guys become play things to them. They are objects of scorn and revulsion. They are used, tossed away, and then shocked if the guy somehow manages to say he doesn't like it. They treat themselves poorly and expect the world to do the same. 

Had I found the right women, I think I could have lived content and ignorant worshiping the ground she walked on. I would have lived blissfully as the nicest of nice guys sacrificing everything for another. As a nice guy I found happiness in that. 

It takes so little to make a nice guy happy. 

As a nice guy, my goal: For my wife to not yell at me all the time. To not be mistreated. Aside from that I wanted her fidelity. That's it. 

Had my wife done that I would have been a very happy man. 

But I am lumped into a camp of nice guys who didn't get lucky. I was forced to change to better my world and life. Because the pain of changing was nothing compared to the pain I was in. 
I wish you all the best in the world.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

Absolutely spot on Awake. The Nice Guys on TAM have mostly washed up here after someone abused those traits.

This time last year I would have settled for so very little from my stbx. When I came to TAM I was told she was actually setting me free, all I had to do was reach out and embrace that freedom.

Doing it may have been much harder than saying it, but its true.

Now I can be that considerate and emotional good guy that was always my core, with my new lady friend but caring enough about myself to say this is me, take it or leave it.

The only person I change for now, is me.

Night and day from how I was.


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## nishi_25 (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re:*



Suspecting said:


> That could be two "nice" people but some people here say it's impossible combination and won't work. In my opinion you only will be doormat if the other person is too dominant. Balanced alpha/beta could be "doormatted" by extreme alpha person.


are we thinking too much into this? y cant we just marry who we love? why do we have to choose what kind of love? :s :scratchhead:


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

The lack of fore thought (combined with divorce being so socially accepted) is precisely why so many relationships bomb.

Imo, many of us don't know what we want in ourselves let alone a partner, until something actually forces us to confront that. On that basis alone, how many "true loves" are anything but true.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Northern Monkey said:


> The lack of fore thought (combined with divorce being so socially accepted) is precisely why so many relationships bomb.
> 
> Imo, many of us don't know what we want in ourselves let alone a partner, until something actually forces us to confront that. On that basis alone, how many "true loves" are anything but true.


This was a good answer to nishi_25's question  ...it takes so much MORE than just  to = a life long ride of happiness with another human being. Would be nice if relationships flowed that easy. 

I've seen many posts claiming our brains are not fully mature until age 26....and until then we are walking around in some sort of darkness/ fog.. and should never marry before this age because we don't know what we want ..... 

I say this depends on the individual, some are still struggling at 30...reaching 40 ...and some have a deeper sense of knowledge about themselves much younger ....*Maturity* & "*self awareness*" has no set age slapped on it. 

I gave a tremendous amount of thought to what I wanted ...who I was ....when I was a teen even.....I read books about Love, relationship mistakes, I sat at the feet of those who lived longer than I.... observed others lives...I was like a sponge - taking it all in.... because I DIDN'T want to screw it up... hit detours, have regrets... 
(I watched my Mother do that... it was very sad ...she was a very passionate person but rather naive, aimless, allowed others to steer her against her own desires)

I envisioned where I would be in 10, 20, 30 yrs....what would bring ME the deepest happiness/ fulfillment ...I could have written a detailed outline in my youth! ....One thing I always knew.... I wanted to share every season with a GOOD man ...a best friend, who gave me his all...his heart, his soul, and shared the same dreams as I. Never thought I'd meet him at 15 ! 

I would write him notes & "pick" his brain... most guys would probably get sick of that- blow me off... but he didn't ...he answered every one...I was seeking "the deep"...that compatibility...I knew how very very important that was....for something lasting. 
What I didn't have was All those FIREWORKS ...the "he was so  I was slurring my speech & melted in his presence"... (He had some of that though, ha ha)... Sometimes we think this is Love...it grew for me... steadily... surely... undeniably - how he made me FEEL about myself even...We both fulfilled something in the other...neither of us "put on airs" trying to be something we were not ...we just had each other to give...honest & true...the good, the bad, the imperfect...yet it was so easy somehow... it just flowed. 

We never deviated from those dreams we talked about in our beginnings either... it's like we knew all along....or we were just lucky.


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