# Long term consequences of lies/omissions & RJ



## Casual Observer

On TAM, the popular way of looking at something that was lied about or hidden, and discovered many (decades?) later, is to claim the issue is retroactive jealousy and largely a problem with the person who (finally) discovered it. Beyond whether that is actually the case (retroactive jealousy) and not a revelation of the root of some issues in the marriage, it also implies that it's better to keep the secret if you believe you can keep it a secret.

That gives power to the decision to lie in the first place. And here's the thing about many lies. Once created, that lie becomes an increasingly-bigger problem, over time, if or when the truth is revealed. So much may have been built upon that lie that the risk of an extremely-negative response becomes the overwhelming driving force to keep the lie going.

Initially, that lie or omission might have felt like what someone needed to keep someone interested in them. It might be something that, if revealed, might frighten the other person away, or at least put them in a negative light. I'm not suggesting that everyone should be an open book at every point in a relationship, but there is a HUGE difference between not bringing something up (because it might be none of their business after all) and not telling the truth, or a reason for not answering (such as, it's my right to have some privacy about my past) when directly asked.

Lies and omissions can create retroactive jealousy that otherwise might not have happened. Even 42 years later. Things that, if discussed early on, would have been no big deal. Things that, because they were outright lied about, created a very different narrative, a different story, about the person you fell in love with. You followed that script and behaved accordingly. You may have changed your own views to better accomodate his or hers. And in some of us, that early story imprinted upon our brains and became the foundation for our lives.

Still easy for many to say look, years have past, you've been generally happy, he/she's been there for you, do you really want to risk throwing it all away by bringing up stuff from ages ago? But using the story theme, stories have beginnings, middles and ends. You don't start in the middle. Sometimes an effective way to frame a story is to actually reveal the end and then show what lead up to it. The beginning is always important, at least to those who believe in stories and narratives that describe a journey and not a series of unpredictable events.

My own personal experience leads me to believe that we routinely discredit the damage that can be done by lies and omissions many, many decades past. We crucify mercilessly for those in the present or near present or even 10 years ago. But unless it's adultery, the ramifications of something discovered is supposed to somehow be softened greatly with the passage of time. For many, that's not true, and those lies and omissions may very well be tied to creating a nearly PTSD-like issue for the person holding back, because that person may be wracked by guilt, at least initially, and over time harden themself into believing that lying (about other things) is the right thing to do, because it helps them to rationalize the earlier decision(s). It can poison the relationship in insidious ways.


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## ConanHub

You know, I've never encountered this IRL and I was involved in ministry for over two decades. I've seen plenty of other ugly relationship issues up close and personal but I've only seen this one online.

I know it happens obviously. We have several men who this has happened to here.


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## ConanHub

What is your experience with this? This happened with you?


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## sokillme

People who are not authentic suck to be married to. Nuff said.


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## CraigBesuden

Honesty is preferable. I knew that my W’s partner before me was better endowed and better in bed than I was. (Though if I were her best just learning the ropes 16 years ago, that would be sad.) I know who her TOTGA is, etc. Nothing is off limits.

She did some “white lying” earlier on, but hardly any of that anymore. For example, she came up with excuses why I shouldn’t use Listerine, then I finally learned that the smell reminded her of her ex. When I recently bought Aqua Velva to try it out, she just straight up said that her grandfather wore it so don’t wear it.

I think the less lying and deception the better, with few exceptions.

Her parents lie to each other constantly. They have a sign in their house, “happiness is being married to your best friend”... and we think, WTF? Her FIL told her that if she wanted to go out with her friends, she could just tell me that she’s doing X and it wouldn’t matter. But if my wife wants to out on a GNO or see a friend, she just tells me. When we were recently married, she asked if I was okay with her having lunch with an ex-boyfriend to get closure, I said sure. We just don’t do so much of the jealous stuff.


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## Casual Observer

ConanHub said:


> What is your experience with this? This happened with you?


More on that later but yes. Out on a bike ride right now. You can look at my “diary” thread for background.


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## ConanHub

Casual Observer said:


> More on that later but yes. Out on a bike ride right now. You can look at my “diary” thread for background.


Took a look and I recall you now though I could use a shortened version of the conclusion.


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## Casual Observer

ConanHub said:


> Took a look and I recall you now though I could use a shortened version of the conclusion.


The conclusion is a work in progress; this is part of that conclusion.  Shortened version is that we both went to individual counseling for a while, then managed to get referred out to marriage counseling (a tough trick with our health plan). The first visit was encouraging; the second visit confirmed my feeling that things would likely get worse before they got better. Each person is looking for something the MC says to prove that they are right and the other wrong. It's ironic that, in this battle, the most-defensive person wins. Working on leveling the playing field and getting a winning relationship instead of a winning person out of this.


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## Casual Observer

ConanHub said:


> Took a look and I recall you now though I could use a shortened version of the conclusion.


New info-

We had an hour long talk this afternoon (my wife and I) during which, for the first time ever, she said she had a traumatic sexual event with the guy prior to me. She is mad about having to discuss this with me, thinks it would have been better if she'd never ever had to bring it up. She also said she was very much enjoying sexual activities back then (not sex itself) and felt really guilty about it. Choosing me was an attempt to do a 180. She still has no clue as to why I've suffered for 42 years over her issues along those lines, why it's something that she never told a therapist about this prior to this. 

She's basically mad at me. She also said "The only thing she looks forward to are our vacations." That's been a big issue since the beginning. The complete lack of anticipation of something pleasurable. I explained to her that the most painful thing I read in her diary was the remark to that immediately-prior boyfriend "Not tonight but I'll make it up to you tomorrow!" not because it might have been about sex but because prior to me, she really looked forward to what she was going to be doing the next day or whatever. That hasn't been the case pretty much the entire time we've been married. 

So she's got an appointment with the MC alone, hoping that, maybe without me there, she can come to understand what's gone on in her past and what might be done to help her get past something she has repressed and not wanted help with.


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## sokillme

Dude you know sometimes people just have to come to grips with the fact that you guys don't fit. 

Why are you reading her diaries to figure her out after years of marriage? You shouldn't be doing that or be having to do that. 

She has no clue why you suffered because she doesn't care that you suffered, at least not enough to try to find out. 

You wife has absolutely no empathy for you at all, you are like her couch.

The whole relationship seems dysfunctional.


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## Casual Observer

sokillme said:


> Dude you know sometimes people just have to come to grips with the fact that you guys don't fit.
> 
> Why are you reading her diaries to figure her out after years of marriage? You shouldn't be doing that or be having to do that.
> 
> She has no clue why you suffered because she doesn't care that you suffered, at least not enough to try to find out.
> 
> You wife has absolutely no empathy for you at all, you are like her couch.
> 
> The whole relationship seems dysfunctional.


The diary stuff is from a while back. Not sure what you mean by me being her couch? Although also not sure I want to know. 

We’ve got something going for us to have lasted 40 years so far. Don’t think we’re as dysfunctional as I’ve made it sound. You are correct about the lack of empathy but that’s one of the reasons we’re in MC. Things are better now than before because at least we’re having the conversation and addressing one of the sources of her depression. 

We both feel great love for each other but we’re it not for the crisis brought on by the diary reading, we’d be in an even-worse place now. Never waste a good crisis and this one is not being wasted.


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## Casual Observer

I’m getting the feeling I should just comment in other threads; the few I’ve started generally seem to put me in a bad light. I don’t think I’m that bad a guy, but maybe my purpose truly is to serve as a warning to others.


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## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> The diary stuff is from a while back. Not sure what you mean by me being her couch? Although also not sure I want to know.
> 
> We’ve got something going for us to have lasted 40 years so far. Don’t think we’re as dysfunctional as I’ve made it sound. You are correct about the lack of empathy but that’s one of the reasons we’re in MC. Things are better now than before because at least we’re having the conversation and addressing one of the sources of her depression.
> 
> We both feel great love for each other but we’re it not for the crisis brought on by the diary reading, we’d be in an even-worse place now. Never waste a good crisis and this one is not being wasted.


I wish you all the luck in the world... my wife has - apart from pure obsessional OCD - many childhood issues she is not able to resolve. She tried IC recently and abandoned it after 2 sessions. I thought we might be on the path to recovery, but no. Not possible. She never lied to me about the issues, but she never explained the severity to me. I wish she did. Needless to say, we have lost all hopes now and we will go separate ways after 33 years together. I think it's a positive thing you are trying to solve the issues together.


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## ConanHub

Casual Observer said:


> I’m getting the feeling I should just comment in other threads; the few I’ve started generally seem to put me in a bad light. I don’t think I’m that bad a guy, but maybe my purpose truly is to serve as a warning to others.


I find your situation helpful to learn about and I'm interested in the process you two are going through.


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## In Absentia

ConanHub said:


> I find your situation helpful to learn about and I'm interested in the process you two are going through.


Me too! I hope it really works for you!


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## Casual Observer

In Absentia said:


> I wish you all the luck in the world... my wife has - apart from pure obsessional OCD - many childhood issues she is not able to resolve. She tried IC recently and abandoned it after 2 sessions. I thought we might be on the path to recovery, but no. Not possible. She never lied to me about the issues, but she never explained the severity to me. I wish she did. Needless to say, we have lost all hopes now and we will go separate ways after 33 years together. I think it's a positive thing you are trying to solve the issues together.


I am so sorry to hear that. My wife had been through IC several times but this was never identified. She was treated as a person with generic depression using the usual... Prozac. She never told a prior therapist (or me) about how she resented sex for all these years... anytime when asked if any sexual trauma in her past she’d talk about a guy when she was 7 years old who bothered her group of friends on a shopping trip but it now looks like that was just a ready answer to deflect from anything real. 

It’s all coming out big-time about how I was the answer to escaping a past that involved quite a few guys she was seeing simultaneously, partly to keep things from going too far with any one guy, all of which I knew beforehand. What she kept secret was how the guy she didn’t tell me about must have written the book on how to get laid while appearing to be the perfect gentleman. The experience put her so much at odds with her Christian upbringing that her final diary entry read like an almost suicidally-desperate need to move away and start over. 

I had no idea at the time that I was the key to starting over. 

I love this woman dearly and will do what it takes to try and get through this but she fights it every step of the way because of a need for her to be in control. Or a hopeless desire to be in control that feeds the depression.


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## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> I love this woman dearly and will do what it takes to try and get through this but she fights it every step of the way because of a need for her to be in control. Or a hopeless desire to be in control that feeds the depression.


Yes, control, control, control. And depression too. But I know the reasons now, so I'm not bitter or resentful. I just wish I knew all of this 15 years ago. I'm positive that things would be different now. But we've grown apart and there is no way back, at least for my wife.

Mind you, your journey won't be easy, but I envy you nonetheless...


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## Deejo

Stick to your guns.

I appreciate your posting. You perhaps better than anyone are aware of the kind of responses this subject matter can elicit.

I try not to come down on people that are fighting for their marriage. Unless they are the only one in the partnership fighting, forever and always.

I'm not sure you are there, yet. If I feel you are, I'll let you know ... respectfully.


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## minimalME

Has she shared why she's angry with you?

I'm just curious, cause I totally get it from her perspective and was wondering if her reason(s) was/were the same as my thinking.




Casual Observer said:


> She is mad about having to discuss this with me, thinks it would have been better if she'd never ever had to bring it up..





> She's basically mad at me.


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## Tilted 1

Yes, believe it that you and what you are going through is a help for the greater community. And sometimes we beat ourselves up pretty good, because we think we should have known. Now that it has come to the surface you are dealing with it as one that wants truth from the beginning. 

You are doing what needs to be done for any forward unity, in your relationship and should you overcome this trial you have helped others who may not post similar issues.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Even perfect gentleman want to get laid. 

You've likely already had the thought there's must be something deeper there.

Because unless there's an age, already married etc, thing that is in the mix too; there's no surprises in the knowledge that even gentlemen want sex if opportunity arises.

It might even be a little bit of a concern that objectively observed it can appear that W always has to have something to fall back on that explains her not being fully engaged sexually with you.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Things that happen while you are together needs to be shared. 

Stuff from before you are together isn’t necessary to share. 

Most people don’t want to know all the details or your partner count. Many people don’t feel like discussing details of sexual assaults or rape. 

Unless it is specifically asked, assume they don’t care. It’s not omission to not give private details. 

IF you know it’s important to you - ask early on in dating. 

Don’t lie if asked but if you don’t want to share, say so and they can choose what to do with that info.


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## Casual Observer

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Things that happen while you are together needs to be shared.
> 
> Stuff from before you are together isn’t necessary to share.
> 
> Most people don’t want to know all the details or your partner count. Many people don’t feel like discussing details of sexual assaults or rape.
> 
> Unless it is specifically asked, assume they don’t care. It’s not omission to not give private details.
> 
> IF you know it’s important to you - ask early on in dating.
> 
> Don’t lie if asked but if you don’t want to share, say so and they can choose what to do with that info.


Yes, this was all very specifically talked about early in the relationship. She was scared that if she told me the truth, I’d run. She was looking for someone to get back the narrative she wanted and she did not just omit but actively lied about her experiences. When asked if she’d ever worried about getting pregnant from fooling around in the past (and what 19 year old hasn’t?), she told me she’d never let things get that far. A little later, the subject of birth control was being discussed and I asked her, “So no guy ever brought out a condom?” The response was that had a guy done that, she would have got up and left. Saying no, defiantly, to both, was not an omission. 

She was comfortable with the idea that two people discussing LTR at that age would want to know about each other’s histories. Some of it, frankly, is to help establish boundaries. At that age, I think that’s pretty common. Especially for a Christian. 

I knew things were not as told because let’s say she knew a lot of things that were new to me (and I’d been the one who had carefully explained my prior two year relationship that included sex, but it was pretty much “just” sex and not terribly creative.


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## Casual Observer

minimalME said:


> Has she shared why she's angry with you?
> 
> I'm just curious, cause I totally get it from her perspective and was wondering if her reason(s) was/were the same as my thinking.


She's mad that something she decided to do, hide it, has been discovered by me doing something I shouldn't have done (read about it in her diary) and mad that she's lost control of her narrative. She doesn't want to be hurt by digging up the past. She cannot differentiate judgement of what she was doing with guys vs judgement of deception and lies about what she'd done in the past. I don't care if she'd had sex with 1 or 3 guys vs what she wanted me to believe. What I care about is the damage she did by lying, the decades of resentment of sex (that she didn't tell me about until recently, after this came up, but it's not like it wasn't apparent). The idea that you have to lie sometimes to get what you want. That all needs to be unraveled and fixed.

She's going to have a one-on-one with the MC, thinking maybe without me there, she might be able to see the light. Glad I made sure we had a woman MC. She (the MC) understands the damage done to a relationship when a traumatic event has to be covered by lies. 

Also, please keep in mind that we were not well along in life when we met. Many here passing judgement on whether someone's sexual history matters are talking about people who have been around the block. Not in a bad way. Just more life experience. She was my 2nd girlfriend. I was only her 2nd "committed" boyfriend (she was stringing along a number of them but basically toying with them, using them essentially, but they were for fun, not LTR material). At that stage in life, 18, maybe 19, the "past" is very recent and more-important than if I were on the market today. Today, I'd be more secure about things, more open to someone's past creating new adventures maybe? Back then, any sense of security if more likely false bravado & intellectualization.

She still wants to stick to the idea that this was ages ago, why does it matter. The MC is going to be working on this. There are a number of things that may tie into carrying such a huge dark secret for such a long time, and hardening that resolve because the facts had been repeatedly questioned over the years. She had a big breakdown 3 years after we married, saying she wanted to tell me about something that was on her mind, something really bad, but she couldn't. That she'd tell me when she was ready. Of course, over time, she walked it back. Said it was no big deal, then forgot what it was about. Hey, if that doesn't etch something permanently in your brain, nothing will!


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## minimalME

Wow.

I apologize if you've already written about this, but how long have you been married? I went back to the opening post, but I didn't see that? 

And what motivated you to look for her diary?




Casual Observer said:


> She's mad that something she decided to do, hide it, has been discovered by me doing something I shouldn't have done (read about it in her diary) and mad that she's lost control of her narrative. She doesn't want to be hurt by digging up the past.


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## CraigBesuden

CO, I might have missed something. But was your W a victim or assault?

I can understand that if she’s a Christian she might feel shame about having a lot of simultaneous partners while a teen. But once she’s told you everything and you’re okay with it, I’d hope that it would be a relief to her to not have to keep that secret any longer


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

So I skimmed the diary post, she omitted to you that she *almost* had sex with a man before she married you? 

Is there more that came out throughout the thread or is that what the entire issue is here?


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## ConanHub

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> So I skimmed the diary post, she omitted to you that she *almost* had sex with a man before she married you?
> 
> Is there more that came out throughout the thread or is that what the entire issue is here?


I think he gave a condensed version in this thread.


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## Affaircare

@Casual Observer, 

Couple of thoughts:

1) If she was brought up a "good Christian girl" then she was likely told there was value in saving sex until marriage...and in her own mind, the fact that she was pulled into not only having sex, but enjoying it and toying with several people at once, she thought of herself in a way that she didn't respect her own self. You and being with you and only you was one way back to being able to look herself in the eye. 

2) The fella before you probably, in some way or another, pushed her to go further than she wanted. It may not have been an outright, violent rape, but if he had been there once before, and she said "no," and he didn't take no for an answer and was a bit pushy about it...she would have felt just as violated as a good Christian girl who was raped, but also felt like she couldn't really blame him cuz she gave in once before (that sort of thing). Soooo...it is my very educated guess, that's where this talking with the MC will likely head. 

3) If that is where it heads, it will explain why she's never been able to anticipate pleasure...because pleasure was what lead to "being forced" and she never, ever dealt with that feeling and let it go. Now, she has literally spent DECADES avoiding this topic, and is very likely going to squirm and make excuses now, like "This happened so long ago, how can it make a difference now?" Well...the marriage is on the brink of extinction right now because she stuffed this away and let it ooze like an infection. The infection got so bad that now it's gangrene and she about to lose a limb! Time to lance the infection, bring out what caused the infection, and let it heal. 

4) I guarantee she will squirm and try to avoid this--she has, successfully, for four decades. But if she does buckle down and face it, for a short time it is likely to get worse before it gets better, because she has to a) remember what happened, and b) face the feelings and feel them, and c) HANDLE the feelings and then let them go. She won't want to remember--it's scary and hurts. If she does remember (which it sounds like she's kind of ready and safe enough to maybe remember), she won't want to feel those feelings again. If she gets that far (which is actually AMAZINGLY GOOD), then she can feel them, deal with them in a healthy way, and let them go...and THAT is when you'll see some light at the end of the tunnel. That's when it may start to get good. 

Okay?


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## Casual Observer

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Even perfect gentleman want to get laid.
> 
> You've likely already had the thought there's must be something deeper there.
> 
> Because unless there's an age, already married etc, thing that is in the mix too; there's no surprises in the knowledge that even gentlemen want sex if opportunity arises.
> 
> It might even be a little bit of a concern that objectively observed it can appear that W always has to have something to fall back on that explains her not being fully engaged sexually with you.


Need to make one thing clear right from the start. I realize this claim never passes the TAM smoke test. There is no, zero, nada, thought that infidelity ever occurred in the past nor would it occur in the future. That's not part of the equation here; it's nothing that drives my thinking. 

Oh, your first line, even perfect gentleman want to get laid. I get that, but I went out of my way, because I thought I knew where she was coming from, to make sure I wouldn't be too tempted to have sex. Remember that scene in "There's something about Mary?" The one where many didn't think any guy would actually take care of himself prior to a date to make sure he didn't get carried away? That was me. Yes, I wanted sex, but not because hormones were dictating my actions. Which means that I also felt a bit foolish as I figured out that what we were doing was nothing new to her (advanced fooling around?) despite her claims.



CraigBesuden said:


> CO, I might have missed something. But was your W a victim or assault?
> 
> I can understand that if she’s a Christian she might feel shame about having a lot of simultaneous partners while a teen. But once she’s told you everything and you’re okay with it, I’d hope that it would be a relief to her to not have to keep that secret any longer


She was not a victim; by all accounts she was a willing participant who realized at the end she got in over her head and strayed from her beliefs. This guy read or wrote the book on how to get laid. Over the course of 6 or 7 dates, he pushed past her boundary a bit, and when she objected, he backed off and profusely apologized, talking about how much he respected her. And the next date they'd kinda start where they left off and push a bit further, she'd protest, he'd apologize, and after 6 or 7 dates you can see where you end up. Those entries do actually read like instructions on how to manipulate a girl into sex by pushing her boundaries very carefully. By the 6th date is was dinner at his place with candles. This guy knew what he was doing. He's a lawyer now, by the way. Am I at all jealous of his skills? Oh yeah, darn right! Not that I'd ever do something like that.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> So I skimmed the diary post, she omitted to you that she *almost* had sex with a man before she married you?
> 
> Is there more that came out throughout the thread or is that what the entire issue is here?


The diary thread is somewhat sanitized. I'd rather seem to throw myself under the bus a bit than my wife. And it's not that she omitted that she *almost* had sex. She omitted the entire relationship. The only relationship she omitted. And it was the relationship immediately prior to ours. The entry in which something did or did not occur is titled "This is the day." It describes the two horniest-teenagers ever (obviously I don't have much of an imagination!). The entry the day before has this line- "Not tonight but tomorrow you'll get everything you want" from her. There were many outright lies to me about her prior experiences, but every single reference to other guys (in her diary) was 100% accurate to what I'd been previously told during our getting-to-know-each-other and setting-boundaries period.


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## Casual Observer

Deejo said:


> Stick to your guns.
> 
> I appreciate your posting. You perhaps better than anyone are aware of the kind of responses this subject matter can elicit.
> 
> I try not to come down on people that are fighting for their marriage. Unless they are the only one in the partnership fighting, forever and always.
> 
> I'm not sure you are there, yet. If I feel you are, I'll let you know ... respectfully.


She doesn't know how to fight for the marriage, nor fully understand the need. But we're seeing improvement. In an email exchange with the MC she thinks it's a huge break that she admitted yesterday that she did have a traumatic experience that freaked her out and caused her to erase that relationship from any discussion (just a few months later so forgetting is not an option). MC also thinks it unlikely that a young Christian woman would have no recollection whatsoever of questioning whether to, or deciding to, give up her virginity to someone she's recently met. 

This is weird stuff to be talking about and makes it sound more silly than it actually is. It doesn't seem like most here can relate to things like this having meaning now or even be especially important back then. It may be relevant primarily to those who married fairly young?


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## Casual Observer

Affaircare said:


> @Casual Observer,
> 
> Couple of thoughts:
> 
> 1) If she was brought up a "good Christian girl" then she was likely told there was value in saving sex until marriage...and in her own mind, the fact that she was pulled into not only having sex, but enjoying it and toying with several people at once, she thought of herself in a way that she didn't respect her own self. You and being with you and only you was one way back to being able to look herself in the eye.
> 
> 2) The fella before you probably, in some way or another, pushed her to go further than she wanted. It may not have been an outright, violent rape, but if he had been there once before, and she said "no," and he didn't take no for an answer and was a bit pushy about it...she would have felt just as violated as a good Christian girl who was raped, but also felt like she couldn't really blame him cuz she gave in once before (that sort of thing). Soooo...it is my very educated guess, that's where this talking with the MC will likely head.
> 
> 3) If that is where it heads, it will explain why she's never been able to anticipate pleasure...because pleasure was what lead to "being forced" and she never, ever dealt with that feeling and let it go. Now, she has literally spent DECADES avoiding this topic, and is very likely going to squirm and make excuses now, like "This happened so long ago, how can it make a difference now?" Well...the marriage is on the brink of extinction right now because she stuffed this away and let it ooze like an infection. The infection got so bad that now it's gangrene and she about to lose a limb! Time to lance the infection, bring out what caused the infection, and let it heal.
> 
> 4) I guarantee she will squirm and try to avoid this--she has, successfully, for four decades. But if she does buckle down and face it, for a short time it is likely to get worse before it gets better, because she has to a) remember what happened, and b) face the feelings and feel them, and c) HANDLE the feelings and then let them go. She won't want to remember--it's scary and hurts. If she does remember (which it sounds like she's kind of ready and safe enough to maybe remember), she won't want to feel those feelings again. If she gets that far (which is actually AMAZINGLY GOOD), then she can feel them, deal with them in a healthy way, and let them go...and THAT is when you'll see some light at the end of the tunnel. That's when it may start to get good.
> 
> Okay?


Almost 100% you nailed it, with the exception of the rape part. Was she manipulated? Played? Absolutely! But she kept going back for more. I don't, ever, want to say that a rape victim deserved what she got. And for what it's asked, I gave her the rape possibility as a way out. She would not take it. She was starved for attention and love because home life wasn't great. She was getting that attention and what she thought was love by playing the field. Two weeks prior she wrote about the guy saying "Let's go to bed and have sex!" At that point she could have said that's not in the cards. Instead she said "Let me think about it." She didn't, that night, but it was the everything-but type of scenario, which she wrote about glowingly. So it's hard for me to buy the rape line when she allowed sex to be on the table, and she didn't leave when the guy pulled out a condom on the evening in question. Maybe something in the middle. 

But dang, you got it dead to rights when you talk about her not respecting herself and the decisions she made. I was the path out of that because we started as friends and I was all about respecting her boundaries. I didn't push them. And up until the two of us had sex, our sex life was amazing. But sex itself found something really at odds with pleasure. It was not very long after that that I had pretty much figured things out, that there were past issues that were doing something to her. 

You cannot know how much I appreciate your post and kindness in replying. We have known each other for almost 43 years, been married 40 now. We let things kind of rot and fester a bit for the first... well, to tell you the truth, until very recently. The biggest difference between her and I is that I'm willing to go through a lot of work and pain and angst to get to a better place. She wants to be at that better place without all that. It doesn't work that way. You have to get it thought. You have to realize that crying doesn't mean you went down a road (in the path to recovery) that shouldn't have been gone down. It's part of recovery. Sometimes you have to really work hard to make sure you actually did hit rock-bottom before you can start moving up. 

I believe God brought her to me because I could help get her away from a past that troubled her. I don't believe there's any reason to judge her negatively on her past, even though she judges herself so harshly on it. She could have told me she'd slept with 5 guys and I still would have married her. Assuming I was comfortable setting boundaries and believed she'd respect the marriage, which was not in question. I can't even tell you why that wouldn't have been in question. I just knew. 

By the way, she was the far more "real" Christian than I was. I was nominal at the time; not really at all if I think about it, kind of an in-between time for me when intellectualism had sort of ruled out religion for a while. She wanted (and did succeed) in bringing me back. But I think framing this as a religious thing is missing the point. It's about being honest and owning who you are and being excited about your future.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

@Casual Observer, 

It sounds like you're going about this the best way possible and trying to restore and yes improve a good relationship. 

I hope all goes well and a great, continued long lasting M results. 

One way we've dealt with things is at some point two folks can say whew, we're all talked out, let's admit mistakes were made, people learn, can forgive themselves, and say ok let's just keep on going, we've a great thing going. 

And let the past be the past, and let it fade. There has to be an end and rebirth at some point or unfortunate circumstances can govern lives forever, running all other good things into the ground. 

Then where's the benefit, where's the upside. This isn't meant just in your circumstances but for many, many different situations. 

Good luck!


----------



## Openminded

What happens if she can't get where you want her to be?


----------



## Casual Observer

Openminded said:


> What happens if she can't get where you want her to be?


Hadn't given it that much thought. I do know that last summer I resolved to not let things continue as they had and was considering looking into divorce. It would have been an ideal time because the business wasn't generating profits and had little net value, making it unlikely there'd have to be a painful cash payout of any sort. I am resolved for things to not continue as they have.

The question is, what should the timeline be? I've been told this can be a very long process. I'm good for up to a year of counseling sessions through our insurance, and if it takes a year, so be it. If there's no improvement, then what, carry through on divorce? I just can't see a scenario in which things don't improve though. I've put up with some stuff for 40+ years, so it's at least partly my fault I didn't deal more forcefully with things earlier. And I let us lead two parallel lives for a while, while raising kids, which in retrospect was a really bad thing because what happens when raising the kids is no longer part of the program? I've still got my work and daily/weekly/monthly goals, things I have to plan for. What's she got? What she's got is too much time on her hands looking for relevance instead of being relevant.

One more thing. It's not getting her where I want her to be. It's a marriage. It's where we, as a couple, need to be. This isn't just a want issue. If that makes sense.


----------



## Casual Observer

Deejo said:


> Stick to your guns.
> 
> I appreciate your posting. You perhaps better than anyone are aware of the kind of responses this subject matter can elicit.
> 
> I try not to come down on people that are fighting for their marriage. Unless they are the only one in the partnership fighting, forever and always.
> 
> I'm not sure you are there, yet. If I feel you are, I'll let you know ... respectfully.


She knows she has to fight for something, but she doesn't understand why. Doesn't think it's fair that she has to. She thinks I should just accept things as they are, because there's enough (qty) sex, she does the duties of a faithful wife, and doesn't understand why I think she needs to flirt with me, why it kills me that she doesn't look forward to things, why when I do something like make the bed every single day and try to dress it up a bit, she says she likes that I do that but if I chose not to it wouldn't be the end of the world. That just kills me. The only thing she can put her finger on that she looks forward to are our vacations. 

So... she knows she needs to change, but she resists the changes she knows she needs to make because she doesn't think they should matter.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Casual Observer said:


> She knows she has to fight for something, but she doesn't understand why. Doesn't think it's fair that she has to. She thinks I should just accept things as they are, because there's enough (qty) sex, she does the duties of a faithful wife, and doesn't understand why I think she needs to flirt with me, why it kills me that she doesn't look forward to things, why when I do something like make the bed every single day and try to dress it up a bit, she says she likes that I do that but if I chose not to it wouldn't be the end of the world. That just kills me. The only thing she can put her finger on that she looks forward to are our vacations.
> 
> So... she knows she needs to change, but she resists the changes she knows she needs to make because she doesn't think they should matter.


Do you keep these things separate from the issue with the diary? I can understand her unfairness if these things were brought up to do something that happened 40 years ago. 

As for the bed, if it's not her thing, you can't force her to be excited for it. I don't care if my bed is made up all nice, I'd prefer that energy go into making coffee in the morning, for example. What would make more of an impact to her day? At the same time, if you want flirting (totally valid) and she wants you to be happy about a cooked dinner, it's just the wrong page. For both of you, it's about doing the things that the spouse wants vs. just wanting the spouse to be happy with what you do.


----------



## Casual Observer

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Do you keep these things separate from the issue with the diary? I can understand her unfairness if these things were brought up to do something that happened 40 years ago.
> 
> As for the bed, if it's not her thing, you can't force her to be excited for it. I don't care if my bed is made up all nice, I'd prefer that energy go into making coffee in the morning, for example. What would make more of an impact to her day? At the same time, if you want flirting (totally valid) and she wants you to be happy about a cooked dinner, it's just the wrong page. For both of you, it's about doing the things that the spouse wants vs. just wanting the spouse to be happy with what you do.


The bed is just one silly example. I've also made sure she's never cleaning up in the kitchen without my help, I'm helping with the laundry, basically, anticipating her needs and taking care of her. For a few months I was putting flowers on the bed each day. Same thing, she liked them but not an issue if not there. The flower thing is a good example because she used to make a point that I'd never get her flowers. She'd beat me up about flowers and cards. And then when I started doing both on a regular basis, it was like that's nice, you didn't have to do that, it won't bother me if you don't. Never a moment that my husband is doing these nice things for me and makes me feel appreciated. Why? Partly because she thinks it's a tit-for-tat thing, where if I do something nice for her, something is expected in return. Well yes, I expect a smile, a hug, flirting. The sex thing is a separate issue (and will likely happen anyway), so why not say something nice too? Why not add some passion to the little things?

The 5 Love Languages was very enlightening. As expected, mine was all about words of affirmation. She understands their importance. And for 24 or maybe even 48 hours after reading or reviewing it, she's there for me. And then it's all off. Her thing is physical touch. I am giving her daily backrubs, work on her malfunctioning-lymph-node arms, basically 30-45 minutes of time helping her to relax and feel good. And when that's happening, she relaxes and feels good! But the next morning or afternoon or evening I might hear that it helped her and she feels better but she might not need it tonight. And again, sometimes, she'll say it's not that big a deal if I couldn't do it for her. 

It's not just about what we enjoy doing for other people. That's important, yes. But there has to be some consideration of what the other person enjoys having done for them. Someone who isn't able to anticipate the pleasure of something leaves you a bit unsettled, at the very least. The MC seems to view this as something not that unusual for someone who has experienced an undealt-with traumatic event though. There can be confusion about pleasure and guilt.


----------



## TAMAT

ConanHub wrote, 

*You know, I've never encountered this IRL and I was involved in ministry for over two decades. I've seen plenty of other ugly relationship issues up close and personal but I've only seen this one online.*

Possibly because the long term dishonesty causes a vague feeling about something which they have no firm proof about. 

Possibly because it is really old and they feel guilty about not being able to let it go, yet they can't and they don't know why.

If you were involved in the ministry that's a further reason not to tell as they expect you will be clueless and tell them to turn the other cheek which seems like an avoidance of understanding and empathy. And often church people have a conflict of interest in that they want to maintain social harmony.

I'm not saying this to single you out, but I've had bad experiences at churches with my W and it was a shock to me as I expected to be able to trust that institution.


----------



## Affaircare

@Casual Observer, 

I am going to float an idea out there that may or may not apply in your situation. You know my background a little: I was beaten as a child, in the name of "christianity" (though in complete fairness, my mom was mentally ill so I don't count it against the entire religion or anything). I was raped in my freshman year of college. My first husband was abusive and cheated on me. I've been down a couple roads!

Anyway, what I want to float out there is the idea that this traumatic event--whatever it was--is something that your wife wanted to NO LONGER REMEMBER. It's not like a "normal" scary event where you might say to yourself, "Eww that was awful" and periodically when you think of it, you tear up a little. Nope, it's more like **** that was so scary that it shook you up inside your soul and so your mind just buries it. I envisioned memories of my beatings like tar that was sealed in a jar, that was inside a taped box, inside a chest with a huge padlock, chains all around the chest, in a safe with a combination lock, inside a vault with thick cement walls and that vault lock that you twirl just to get it open! Now, in a way the tar would bubble up and leak out of all that locked up-ness...but it was locked away never to be thought of again!

What I didn't realize was that the price of locking up a part of me like that, was that I was kind of numb. Again, I sort of envisioned it as someone who saw the world in washed out watercolors, instead of seeing clear, bright, oil paint colors. My emotions were not free or available because I honestly thought if I opened that jar of tar, I would not be able to control it and it would be like a monster and just devour me and everyone in its path. So... I lived a little numb in exchange for never, ever unlocking the tar. 

I know it sounds unusual to think of someone being numb for 40 years, and obviously there are occasionally things that break through the numbness, but to really open the room and let the tar out AND LEARN HOW TO deal with the tar and protect my own self and others from the tar... that is what it took to learn to feel FULLY again. 

So I float out there the possibility that maybe part of the reason your wife hasn't been able to anticipate pleasure is because her tar is still firmly locked in that jar in that box in that chest in that safe in that vault.


----------



## Casual Observer

Affaircare said:


> @Casual Observer,
> 
> I am going to float an idea out there that may or may not apply in your situation. You know my background a little: I was beaten as a child, in the name of "christianity" (though in complete fairness, my mom was mentally ill so I don't count it against the entire religion or anything). I was raped in my freshman year of college. My first husband was abusive and cheated on me. I've been down a couple roads!
> 
> Anyway, what I want to float out there is the idea that this traumatic event--whatever it was--is something that your wife wanted to NO LONGER REMEMBER. It's not like a "normal" scary event where you might say to yourself, "Eww that was awful" and periodically when you think of it, you tear up a little. Nope, it's more like **** that was so scary that it shook you up inside your soul and so your mind just buries it. I envisioned memories of my beatings like tar that was sealed in a jar, that was inside a taped box, inside a chest with a huge padlock, chains all around the chest, in a safe with a combination lock, inside a vault with thick cement walls and that vault lock that you twirl just to get it open! Now, in a way the tar would bubble up and leak out of all that locked up-ness...but it was locked away never to be thought of again!
> 
> What I didn't realize was that the price of locking up a part of me like that, was that I was kind of numb. Again, I sort of envisioned it as someone who saw the world in washed out watercolors, instead of seeing clear, bright, oil paint colors. My emotions were not free or available because I honestly thought if I opened that jar of tar, I would not be able to control it and it would be like a monster and just devour me and everyone in its path. So... I lived a little numb in exchange for never, ever unlocking the tar.
> 
> I know it sounds unusual to think of someone being numb for 40 years, and obviously there are occasionally things that break through the numbness, but to really open the room and let the tar out AND LEARN HOW TO deal with the tar and protect my own self and others from the tar... that is what it took to learn to feel FULLY again.
> 
> So I float out there the possibility that maybe part of the reason your wife hasn't been able to anticipate pleasure is because her tar is still firmly locked in that jar in that box in that chest in that safe in that vault.


GET OUT OF MY WIFE'S HEAD!!! 

My wife told me, when I first came across the evidence, that she didn't want to discuss any of this, that she never wanted it to come up again, because she'd locked it away in a box. That that's how she dealt with things that were really unpleasant to think about. Her words, and yours, are almost exactly the same. 

So... how is this any different from a "normal" repressed traumatic memory? Is there a voluntary aspect to it, or is to something of an automated learned response (since she claims this is how she handles any really unpleasant memory)? My wife and I could not be any more different in this regard; my unpleasant memories are what fuels me to be a better person, to avoid those situations. I think about them when appropriate but don't dwell upon them. 

The key thing about the traumatic event & repressed memory scenario appears to be convincing the person of two things?
1: That they are suffering, and/or causing others around them to suffer, because they have not dealt with it
2: That the end result will be worth the pain of dealing with resurfacing the memory.

My wife thinks I should be able to simply not think about it, if I'm a good person/decent husband, and that it's her problem, not mine, and she's dealt with it in the way she wants to deal with it. Keeping it in the box. I hope our MC will be able to make a compelling-enough case to my wife that her depression & general unhappiness over the years might have some roots in this. From my standpoint, how could having to actively lie (intially) and keep a secret like that from your husband not generate a fair amount of angst? But that's a problem too- my desire to try and hang too many problems onto a single thing.


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

Affaircare said:


> @Casual Observer,
> 
> I am going to float an idea out there that may or may not apply in your situation. You know my background a little: I was beaten as a child, in the name of "christianity" (though in complete fairness, my mom was mentally ill so I don't count it against the entire religion or anything). I was raped in my freshman year of college. My first husband was abusive and cheated on me. I've been down a couple roads!
> 
> Anyway, what I want to float out there is the idea that this traumatic event--whatever it was--is something that your wife wanted to NO LONGER REMEMBER. It's not like a "normal" scary event where you might say to yourself, "Eww that was awful" and periodically when you think of it, you tear up a little. Nope, it's more like **** that was so scary that it shook you up inside your soul and so your mind just buries it. I envisioned memories of my beatings like tar that was sealed in a jar, that was inside a taped box, inside a chest with a huge padlock, chains all around the chest, in a safe with a combination lock, inside a vault with thick cement walls and that vault lock that you twirl just to get it open! Now, in a way the tar would bubble up and leak out of all that locked up-ness...but it was locked away never to be thought of again!
> 
> What I didn't realize was that the price of locking up a part of me like that, was that I was kind of numb. Again, I sort of envisioned it as someone who saw the world in washed out watercolors, instead of seeing clear, bright, oil paint colors. My emotions were not free or available because I honestly thought if I opened that jar of tar, I would not be able to control it and it would be like a monster and just devour me and everyone in its path. So... I lived a little numb in exchange for never, ever unlocking the tar.
> 
> I know it sounds unusual to think of someone being numb for 40 years, and obviously there are occasionally things that break through the numbness, but to really open the room and let the tar out AND LEARN HOW TO deal with the tar and protect my own self and others from the tar... that is what it took to learn to feel FULLY again.
> 
> So I float out there the possibility that maybe part of the reason your wife hasn't been able to anticipate pleasure is because her tar is still firmly locked in that jar in that box in that chest in that safe in that vault.


Unfortunately I think this is what my wife is dealing with. She hid what happened to her before we were married. Won't discuss it, even with a counselor. Thanks for the post.


----------



## ConanHub

personofinterest said:


> I'm mainly just glad I never have to endure the long-term consequences of marrying a bitter pitiful little weenie


I'm glad for you. There isn't any pitiful little weenies that this thread pertains to however.:|


----------



## sunsetmist

I hope MC helps. 40 years is a long time--it has crept by before you knew it.

IMO: Bottom line is you want appreciation and to feel loved--have yearned for this for what seems like forever. When you make an effort, it is the wrong one or too late or of little value. 

She, on the other hand, is unwilling or unable to enjoy life with passion and fullness. Is she somehow punishing herself for 40+ year old guilt? From what is she protecting herself? She 'punishes' you by denying what she knows you want. Why? What is special about the escape of vacation that releases her fears?

Do y'all have true intimacy in marriage? Do you listen to each other, make eye contact, have nonsexual touch? If so, your problems should be easier to address. Do you tell her how much you value her, care for her. Does she do this for you?

I so want good things for you both!


----------



## Casual Observer

HTML:







minimalME said:


> Wow.
> 
> I apologize if you've already written about this, but how long have you been married? I went back to the opening post, but I didn't see that?
> 
> And what motivated you to look for her diary?


There was a reference to 42 years in my original post here; that's how long we've known each other. Been married for 40 years as of a couple weeks ago. Had a fantastic anniversary in Las Vegas, seeing a couple of magic shows. That quickie getaway almost didn't come off because she was acting like it was no big thing ahead of time, whatever it was (it was a surprise). Guess I'm tired of "meh" in my life? Is it that simple? Well, yes, what I'm tired of might be simple. It's the solution that's a bear.


----------



## Casual Observer

personofinterest said:


> I'm mainly just glad I never have to endure the long-term consequences of marrying a bitter pitiful little weenie


It's your choice to not endure this thread as well. 



ConanHub said:


> I'm glad for you. There isn't any pitiful little weenies that this thread pertains to however.:|


I appreciate that very much. Thank you.



sunsetmist said:


> I hope MC helps. 40 years is a long time--it has crept by before you knew it.
> 
> IMO: Bottom line is you want appreciation and to feel loved--have yearned for this for what seems like forever. When you make an effort, it is the wrong one or too late or of little value.
> 
> She, on the other hand, is unwilling or unable to enjoy life with passion and fullness. Is she somehow punishing herself for 40+ year old guilt? From what is she protecting herself? She 'punishes' you by denying what she knows you want. Why? What is special about the escape of vacation that releases her fears?
> 
> Do y'all have true intimacy in marriage? Do you listen to each other, make eye contact, have nonsexual touch? If so, your problems should be easier to address. Do you tell her how much you value her, care for her. Does she do this for you?
> 
> I so want good things for you both!


Thank you. Yes, we're doing much better with listening and eye contact & nonsexual touch. She still holds back from it because if there are 10 nice things said and one request that questions how she does something, you can guess what the only thing she responds to will be. I openly ask for what I can do better, and I think I've checked off every box on her list. She's run out of things. I wish there were more, because it would give me hope. There's that word again. Hope. I have it, she doesn't. I think part of having hope has to do with an appreciation that things will not always be wonderful, but there will still be many wonderful moments. You have to accept the bad with the good. In a way you have to see bad as almost a necessary thing to get to the good. And no, I'm not making any sense at all!!!


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Casual Observer said:


> It's your choice to not endure this thread as well.
> 
> I appreciate that very much. Thank you.
> 
> Thank you. Yes, we're doing much better with listening and eye contact & nonsexual touch. She still holds back from it because if there are 10 nice things said and one request that questions how she does something, you can guess what the only thing she responds to will be. *I openly ask for what I can do better, and I think I've checked off every box on her list. She's run out of things. I wish there were more, because it would give me hope.* There's that word again. Hope. I have it, she doesn't. I think part of having hope has to do with an appreciation that things will not always be wonderful, but there will still be many wonderful moments. You have to accept the bad with the good. In a way you have to see bad as almost a necessary thing to get to the good. And no, I'm not making any sense at all!!!


That doesn't look good to me at all. I really don't know your situation well at all aside from what I gathered from this thread - which is basically that she lied about her sexual experiences before you 2 were married. The lie covered for some "bad experience" from dating - or if I may say "retroactive guilt". Truth be told, she enjoyed that time in her life very much. However, her Christian upbringing - probably either Baptist or hard core Catholic - ruined the memories for her. 

Sounds like to me that this is a classic case of the wife getting off with some bad boys until she wanted to settle down and ended up with respectable man that was "marriage material". That alone has a lot of baggage to unpack along with the Christian guilt issues.


----------



## sunsetmist

In some ways it sounds like your wife might suffer from Dysthymia? Does she ever have periods of being genuinely up in life?


----------



## Casual Observer

sunsetmist said:


> In some ways it sounds like your wife might suffer from Dysthymia? Does she ever have periods of being genuinely up in life?


Maybe that’s the name for it; the term applies to long-term mild depression in a pretty generic way. Had to look it up.


----------



## Casual Observer

Plan 9 from OS said:


> That doesn't look good to me at all. I really don't know your situation well at all aside from what I gathered from this thread - which is basically that she lied about her sexual experiences before you 2 were married. The lie covered for some "bad experience" from dating - or if I may say "retroactive guilt". Truth be told, she enjoyed that time in her life very much. However, her Christian upbringing - probably either Baptist or hard core Catholic - ruined the memories for her.
> 
> Sounds like to me that this is a classic case of the wife getting off with some bad boys until she wanted to settle down and ended up with respectable man that was "marriage material". That alone has a lot of baggage to unpack along with the Christian guilt issues.


Reasonably close; I definitely have given too much thought to the fact she had more excitement with others than with me; you get to feeling a bit like a cross between Plan B and looking for the safe guy to settle down with. Recognizing that there is an actual traumatic experience in play may help to ease my mind some. 

I’ve definitely got a selfish thing going to. As in, I deserve to feel like she thinks I’m special and I don’t think it out of line to see her actually act on what she learned from the 5 Love Languages. I think it’s unfair to saddle me with so few options of things she looks forward to. I think she could spend a little bit of her dramatically-greater free time doing little things for me. A cute text now and then. If she’s bored with something in our lives, she can research and make suggestions instead of it being my responsibility. 

She’s just not at all into the idea of doing that tiny little touch that makes the difference. I’m really hoping that MC is going to help with this, and that some of the issue has been the deceit at the start of our relationship, which she carried forward through the years. If the sexual trauma she now admits to, regarding the prior boyfriend, can be finally dealt with, then perhaps we can get somewhere. 

Clearly, looking back, I should have forced this issue a few years into our marriage. Somehow I’m less worried about the embarrassment of doing so now, than I was then.


----------



## In Absentia

I can relate to all of this very much, since we are in a similar situation, with the little locked box which cannot be opened and has impacted greatly on our relationship. I lost the "battle" and I hope you can win it... but, have you ever considered that you might be creating a lot of resentment in your wife by driving her to do what she deeply hates doing? Have you thought of the possible negative consequences at all?


----------



## Tasorundo

In Absentia said:


> I can relate to all of this very much, since we are in a similar situation, with the little locked box which cannot be opened and has impacted greatly on our relationship. I lost the "battle" and I hope you can win it... but, have you ever considered that you might be creating a lot of resentment in your wife by driving her to do what she deeply hates doing? Have you thought of the possible negative consequences at all?


I find your positioning in this and the RJ thread to be interesting. As a guy that has lived with a lie that destroyed is marriage, how can you sit in here and worry about him upsetting the apple cart. The apple cart has been upset for years, she just didn't notice because he was keeping in on the road.

Much like in your story, your wife's inability to address, and work through issues has been a source of pain for him throughout his marriage, yet you worry that he might upset her? Sometimes people deserve to be upset and sometimes being uncomfortable is the only way to grow. In fact, it is almost always the only way.


----------



## In Absentia

Tasorundo said:


> I find your positioning in this and the RJ thread to be interesting. As a guy that has lived with a lie that destroyed is marriage, how can you sit in here and worry about him upsetting the apple cart. The apple cart has been upset for years, she just didn't notice because he was keeping in on the road.
> 
> Much like in your story, your wife's inability to address, and work through issues has been a source of pain for him throughout his marriage, yet you worry that he might upset her? Sometimes people deserve to be upset and sometimes being uncomfortable is the only way to grow. In fact, it is almost always the only way.


I get what you say, but the OP has stated that divorce is now NOT an option... so, if his aim is to stay with his wife, surely he has to find the right balance? In the last few months, I have done a bit of homework and I have re-valuated my wife's mental issues. In my opinion, they played a much bigger role than I previously thought. In fact, she's even tried IC in the last couple of months, only to ditch it after 2 sessions. This confirms my theory: she can't get over her issues when she was a teenager. They are still in the locked box. Same as the OP's wife. It will be a very hard battle and I just hope he is not going to find himself in my position - no wife - if he is not careful. Also, I'm not really sure what he is trying to achieve after 40 years of painful marriage. We are 10 years younger and separating is probably the best thing we can do now, for both of us.


----------



## Tasorundo

In Absentia said:


> I get what you say, but the OP has stated that divorce is now NOT an option... so, if his aim is to stay with his wife, surely he has to find the right balance? In the last few months, I have done a bit of homework and I have re-valuated my wife's mental issues. In my opinion, they played a much bigger role than I previously thought. In fact, she's even tried IC in the last couple of months, only to ditch it after 2 sessions. This confirms my theory: she can't get over her issues when she was a teenager. They are still in the locked box. Same as the OP's wife. It will be a very hard battle and I just hope he is not going to find himself in my position - no wife - if he is not careful. Also, I'm not really sure what he is trying to achieve after 40 years of painful marriage. We are 10 years younger and separating is probably the best thing we can do now, for both of us.


In almost every belief system, you get one life. I am not saying to live it with reckless abandon, but don't live it martyring yourself on an altar that no one cares about. People should strive to live the best life they can, and in a marriage both people should be striving in that together. If they aren't then, something needs to be addressed.


----------



## In Absentia

Tasorundo said:


> something needs to be addressed.


40 years later? Yes, you have one life, so why make it even more miserable than it is? I should know... :laugh: If his wife is reluctant to go, angry, depressed at the thought etc. the OP should either accept it or divorce her. They get on ok, they have sex, they are fine, really... 

Of course I've never been lied to (more a case of being economical with the truth), but talking about co-dependency...


----------



## Tasorundo

In Absentia said:


> 40 years later? Yes, you have one life, so why make it even more miserable than it is? I should know... :laugh: If his wife is reluctant to go, angry, depressed at the thought etc. the OP should either accept it or divorce her. They get on ok, they have sex, they are fine, really...
> 
> Of course I've never been lied to (more a case of being economical with the truth), but talking about co-dependency...


Yeah, I think you got it right at the end there. This is the kind of thinking that has kept you a prisoner for all these years. Even now that you are moving towards freedom, you are looking back at your bondage saying it wasn't so bad.

You aren't Icarus and happiness isn't the sun.


----------



## In Absentia

Tasorundo said:


> Even now that you are moving towards freedom, you are looking back at your bondage saying it wasn't so bad.


No, it was really bad. The first 10 years were fine, but after that... I would never want to be in that swamp again.

This is why I'm saying what I'm saying... I think I've learnt something...


----------



## Casual Observer

Tasorundo said:


> I find your positioning in this and the RJ thread to be interesting. As a guy that has lived with a lie that destroyed is marriage, how can you sit in here and worry about him upsetting the apple cart. The apple cart has been upset for years, she just didn't notice because he was keeping in on the road.
> 
> Much like in your story, your wife's inability to address, and work through issues has been a source of pain for him throughout his marriage, yet you worry that he might upset her? Sometimes people deserve to be upset and sometimes being uncomfortable is the only way to grow. In fact, it is almost always the only way.





In Absentia said:


> I get what you say, but the OP has stated that divorce is now NOT an option... so, if his aim is to stay with his wife, surely he has to find the right balance? In the last few months, I have done a bit of homework and I have re-valuated my wife's mental issues. In my opinion, they played a much bigger role than I previously thought. In fact, she's even tried IC in the last couple of months, only to ditch it after 2 sessions. This confirms my theory: she can't get over her issues when she was a teenager. They are still in the locked box. Same as the OP's wife. It will be a very hard battle and I just hope he is not going to find himself in my position - no wife - if he is not careful. Also, I'm not really sure what he is trying to achieve after 40 years of painful marriage. We are 10 years younger and separating is probably the best thing we can do now, for both of us.


In my case, I believe opening up that locked box is an absolute, not an option. @Affaircare provided a pretty good summary of just how much keeping stuff locked away can hurt you. And if there's a chance of restoring some day-to-day hope & anticipation of pleasure in my wife's life, months, a year even, of grief, whatever it takes to get there, will have been worth it. I've been able to deal with some things by simply having to say, this is how it has to play out. I don't like that. That's not me. She is so detached from considering sex something to look forward to that it almost doesn't matter to her how often because if it's not zero, what's the big difference between once a week and four times? I could almost live OK with that if she wasn't frankly wildly orgasmic at times with oral, enjoying it hugely AT THAT MOMENT and maybe for 30 minutes after. And not thought about again until it actually happens again. There is a very sexual woman hidden someplace inside my wife, and that has hurt both of us, not just her, not just me.



Tasorundo said:


> In almost every belief system, you get one life. I am not saying to live it with reckless abandon, but don't live it martyring yourself on an altar that no one cares about. People should strive to live the best life they can, and in a marriage both people should be striving in that together. If they aren't then, something needs to be addressed.


And at 63, there's an increasing sense of mortality, of not knowing how long you've got. But you do know that, right now, you're 100% functional. Heck, I feel even stronger than 100%. Adding to that is the absurdity that I feel so good and perform so well (not in bed, I'm talking about putting in the miles and watts on my bike) while at the same time having a chronic mild bone marrow cancer and 2% off a clinical definition of COPD. But 140% of VO2 max for someone my age. So I'm all about striving to perform past expectations, getting the most out of what you have. It's time that I no longer accept not getting the most out of my relationship with my wife. Does that make sense?



In Absentia said:


> 40 years later? Yes, you have one life, so why make it even more miserable than it is? I should know... :laugh: If his wife is reluctant to go, angry, depressed at the thought etc. the OP should either accept it or divorce her. They get on ok, they have sex, they are fine, really...
> 
> Of course I've never been lied to (more a case of being economical with the truth), but talking about co-dependency...


That doesn't work for me. Especially not when we're this close, when we finally have an admission of trauma with the prior boyfriend. When years and years and years of feeling unsettled because my wife didn't seem to be telling the truth have finally been found true. For the time being divorce is off the table because I need to give my wife the freedom to play this one out without that, and see where she goes with it. It will be better if it doesn't seem like a forced confession.



Tasorundo said:


> Yeah, I think you got it right at the end there. This is the kind of thinking that has kept you a prisoner for all these years. Even now that you are moving towards freedom, you are looking back at your bondage saying it wasn't so bad.
> 
> You aren't Icarus and happiness isn't the sun.


I've felt like that prisoner. It's time to be free. For both my wife and I.


----------



## Casual Observer

So, today could be a significant day for us. In a couple of hours my W meets with our MC alone, to go over things that she might not feel comfortable discussing with me there. Ironically, our MC told me, when I asked if this could be done, that there are no secrets kept from either party when discussed separately. Still, I think it will go better if my W isn't looking over to me to see how I react when she says something. 

The MC was pretty excited when I emailed her that my W had finally admitted to a traumatic sexual event prior to meeting me. Her reply-

"I thought that might be true! It isn't easy to tell someone that you were enjoying sexual activities, if you think you shouldn't have sex... until you are married. It also ruined her idea of sex, if she was forced or used... I hope she will be open with me, because it does help to process it..."

My W asked me what I thought she should bring up in the meeting. I told her that this was her meeting, not mine, something between herself and the MC and the whole point was to not have me steering the conversation in any way. It was really hard not to bring anything up but support for whatever she wanted to say. It's also really hard not to send an email to the MC to watch out for my wife doing the "trickle truth" thing or believing that all that went on was extensive heavy petting. But I do believe the MC is smart enough to recognize that extensive heavy petting likely wasn't enough to bring on a traumatic experience. The most likely scenario is that my W, at the time, felt guilt on two fronts- one, pushing her boundaries too far, and two, leading the guy on. Leading the guy on led to going further than she wanted to. I have to place trust in the MC to figure that out.

I don't know if this belongs here or not, but last night I told her, sex was not on the table, that I'd help her with her aches and pains (30 minute massage) but it was her time to relax and not have her mind thinking ahead to anything it might lead to. She apparently didn't really trust me, mentioning at one point that I was testing the elasticity of my underwear. Had to assure her that I was being truthful. Now, in my perfect (and admittedly-selfish) world, I'd love to hear say "Thank you, I'll make it up to you tomorrow night!" Or even that she'd try. That's my long-range goal. That will tell me we've arrived. It should not be so hard to get there, and that's the problem, that I think that shouldn't be hard and that for her, that's an impossible ask. For now.

No matter how it turns out, the day started out on an exceptional note. She had a scan of the area that was formerly her breast (3 incidences of breast cancer give you the background for that!) because she'd been having some pains. All clear!


----------



## SunCMars

Casual Observer said:


> She knows she has to fight for something, but she doesn't understand why. Doesn't think it's fair that she has to. She thinks I should just accept things as they are, because there's enough (qty) sex, she does the duties of a faithful wife, and doesn't understand why I think she needs to flirt with me, why it kills me that she doesn't look forward to things, why when I do something like make the bed every single day and try to dress it up a bit, she says she likes that I do that but if I chose not to it wouldn't be the end of the world. That just kills me. The only thing she can put her finger on that she looks forward to are our vacations.
> 
> So... she knows she needs to change, but she resists the changes she knows she needs to make because she doesn't think they should matter.


She sounds mildly depressive. Medicine for depressives seem to stem sexual response, seems to dull ones senses. It lifts you from some bottom, yet never taking one high enough to feel true joy. 

Note: This is from what I have read and seen.


----------



## Casual Observer

Code:







SunCMars said:


> She sounds mildly depressive. Medicine for depressives seem to stem sexual response, seems to dull ones senses. It lifts you from some bottom, yet never taking one high enough to feel true joy.
> 
> Note: This is from what I have read and seen.


She's on both Prozac (bad for sex) and Wellbutrin (arguably good for sex). While I would like to blame things on her meds, there's really nothing new under the sun here; she's been on meds for maybe 12 years and everything pre-dates that by ages.

She's been in therapy and seen a psychologist for her depression, has either not been asked about any traumatic experiences, or they asked via a checkbox on a form and she said no. Did she volunteer that she'd had one? No. Which is kind of the point. The person who needs help may need help partly because they're unwilling to admit they had one, due to shame/guilt/whatever. Past shame & guilt weigh heavily upon my wife, but she insists neither have ever been brought up previously in therapy. I later found out that she actually kind of invented a "traumatic experience" for convenience. Out with some friends (kids and adults) on a shopping trip when she was very young, 7, and there was a "creepy guy" who stared at them. That's it. Nothing at all like what she now says she experienced with that prior relationship.

Now, make no mistake, my W is not someone you want to get on the bad side of. Her tongue is sharp and she'll tell you not to go there. And "there" is precisely where one needs to go. She has never dealt with her shame & guilt other than to want to, as she says, put it into a box and throw away the key. Pretend it never happened because thinking about it is painful. And I have to be careful not to seem to want to put my wife into a neatly-wrapped-up diagnosis, thinking that will cure everything.


----------



## Affaircare

@Casual Observer, 

I can understand why you are excited as it appears there may be some headway. I am also happy to hear that the MC had already thought there was a possibility of some sort of trauma...bearing in mind that we don't know what the trauma was and can only guess. It seems reasonable to have hope that the MC will be able to gently encourage your wife to go a little beyond her "comfort zone" and recognize when your wife is minimizing and avoiding. 

However, I do want to caution you: Rome was not built in a day. It is entirely possible that you'll ask your wife: "So how did it go today?" and she'll say "Oh fine. We had a good talk." and that's all you'll hear for a while. It is up to your wife to process this. If the MC is skilled and encourages her that she is safe, it will still take considerable time and effort on your wife's part to face her fears and learn new ways to handle them. In addition, SHE has to be the one who wants it, and nothing will happen just because you want it or you push her, etc. 

Now, I don't want to discourage you...but I do want to suggest turning the fire down from a flame to a flicker. The fact she brought it up at all is very encouraging. The fact she is in professional hands is encouraging. But this kind of thing requires some substantial "discomfort" and there are many people in this world who do not take discomfort well. She will have to remember things that she spent 40 years avoiding, and face her own self and be honest with herself in order for this to work, and if you ask me, that's about the bravest thing a person can do. 

Finally, speaking as a person well over 50yo, I know I'm a newlywed and all, but I've been married for long-term and I want to just point out to you that it's unlikely your wife will go from neutral and milque-toast to bold and brazen in her desire style. Being with someone a long time often leads to what appears to be more mellow passions rather than continuing that "when we first met" flutter, and yet I want to posit that someone with whom you are intimate for a long, long time becomes more like a burning ember. Embers actually are hotter than the flash of flame at first--but that's because the log has really burned and the fire has been present for a good, long time. Embers are white hot, but can look like just a glow. Don't go for the flame--go for the ember.


----------



## Casual Observer

@Affaircare Yes, I understand. Forgive my enthusiasm; just making any progress at all is a pretty big deal. I'm going to give her space and see what comes of it. I had to resist sending her any cute texts she'd read once she got there. You recognize, correctly, that it's not easy for me to let things play out. Thank you for reminding me that giving her some space is a good idea and that my idea of progress, and my desired end result, need to be toned down. The best result wouldn't be a Super Bowl win amidst 10 seasons of failure. It would be having consistent progress towards winning season, not a championship.

My victory celebration will come when I hear either "I'm looking forward to tonight" or "Not tonight but I'll make it up to you tomorrow." For something other than a 10 day once-a-year vacation.


----------



## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> And I have to be careful not to seem to want to put my wife into a neatly-wrapped-up diagnosis, thinking that will cure everything.


But this is exactly what you are doing? How can you not do that, anyway?


----------



## In Absentia

Affaircare said:


> Embers are white hot, but can look like just a glow. Don't go for the flame--go for the ember.


He's taken sex off the table at the moment... I think this is a mistake. He might not getting it back again. Ever.


----------



## Casual Observer

In Absentia said:


> He's taken sex off the table at the moment... I think this is a mistake. He might not getting it back again. Ever.


Did I say that? Interesting because I don’t recall that, but at the moment, that’s exactly the case. I’m going to try sex on her terms and see where it does or doesn’t lead. “Her terms” means she actually has to desire it. This will not be the start of an endless drought but will be either an epiphany for her or the beginning of the end. The MC apparently told her something entirely different than she told me, or my wife went beyond filtering the results. Every single point my wife said was throwing me under the bus. No mention made of how my wife’s lack of hope or inability to anticipate anything pleasant has done a number on our marriage. It’s my fault that our sex life is boring/routine while no mention that for at least 35 years she wouldn’t consider initiating anything. 

Friday’s session with both of us will be interesting. Friday the 13th!!!


----------



## Tasorundo

Casual Observer said:


> Did I say that? Interesting because I don’t recall that, but at the moment, that’s exactly the case. I’m going to try sex on her terms and see where it does or doesn’t lead. “Her terms” means she actually has to desire it. This will not be the start of an endless drought but will be either an epiphany for her or the beginning of the end. The MC apparently told her something entirely different than she told me, or my wife went beyond filtering the results. Every single point my wife said was throwing me under the bus. No mention made of how my wife’s lack of hope or inability to anticipate anything pleasant has done a number on our marriage. It’s my fault that our sex life is boring/routine while no mention that for at least 35 years she wouldn’t consider initiating anything.
> 
> Friday’s session with both of us will be interesting. Friday the 13th!!!


Casual, you said in a previous post that you had taken sex off the table. I felt in reading that you meant for that night, that you only wanted to give her a massage to relax her.

The comment about throwing you under the bus, is that a summary of her session yesterday? Or is that a commentary on sessions so far?


----------



## Casual Observer

Tasorundo said:


> Casual, you said in a previous post that you had taken sex off the table. I felt in reading that you meant for that night, that you only wanted to give her a massage to relax her.
> 
> The comment about throwing you under the bus, is that a summary of her session yesterday? Or is that a commentary on sessions so far?


Night before last sex was off the table because I didn’t want to influence what she was going to be talking about; I wanted her as relaxed and stress-free as possible. 

The throwing under the bus is from her private session. It was not at all expected and at odds with my feelings from the initial session.


----------



## Tasorundo

Casual Observer said:


> Night before last sex was off the table because I didn’t want to influence what she was going to be talking about; I wanted her as relaxed and stress-free as possible.
> 
> The throwing under the bus is from her private session. It was not at all expected and at odds with my feelings from the initial session.


I am sorry that it went that way. I think there are going to be some fits and starts as you go through this, so don't get discouraged. When you get to Friday, speak from the heart and be honest with how you feel. Honesty is the only way forward and sometimes, often even, radical honesty begets the same in others.


----------



## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> It was not at all expected and at odds with my feelings from the initial session.



Maybe you should have left the box locked...


----------



## Affaircare

Casual Observer said:


> ... The MC apparently told her something entirely different than she told me, or my wife went beyond filtering the results. Every single point my wife said was throwing me under the bus. No mention made of how my wife’s lack of hope or inability to anticipate anything pleasant has done a number on our marriage. It’s my fault that our sex life is boring/routine while no mention that for at least 35 years she wouldn’t consider initiating anything.
> 
> Friday’s session with both of us will be interesting. Friday the 13th!!!


 @Casual Observer, 

I want to politely point out two things to you: 1) You built up expectations of this private session between wife and MC. I realize you tried not to, but you had hope that your wife saying there was a traumatic event meant that she was ready to talk about it and deal with it in a professional setting. Thus you expected their conversation might center around something like your wife admitting that yep...after 35 years it has been her "fault" all along. In a way, that leads to thought #2...

2) It doesn't surprise me one bit that WHAT WIFE HEARD, and likely what they said together, was "throwing you under the bus." It is human nature to paint themselves in a good light and paint others in a bad light. 

I knew of a disloyal spouse once (a lady) who really looked up to the doctor for whom she worked, so she went to him for advice on her marriage and what to do. She told the doctor that her husband had spent the whole evening last night yelling at her, screaming, and flipping out in anger--what should she do? Naturally his response was something to the effect that a whole night of raging was abusive and she should leave. Of course, she CONVENIENTLY FORGOT TO LEAVE OUT the part that the reason the husband was yelling was because he had discovered her affair with a patient IN THE EXAM ROOM. When asked why she didn't include that little tidbit, she said "It didn't seem relevant to the situation." REALLY?? 

So @Casual Observer, try to keep these two things in mind. I suspect some portion of you was hoping for a big, counseling break-through, even though you tried to keep your expectations in check. Sadly, in real life it rarely works that way. AND I suspect that MC may not have said at all what your wife says was said, only because she (your wife) has spent at least 35-40 years living in denial and avoidance. She is VERY good at it. And she INTERPRETED what was said through the filter of "it's not my fault...I'm not wrong." Thus, even though we all know that the truth is partly her side of the story and partly your side of the story--each of you tends to look to the other person in the partnership and want THEM to change and grow. 

My advice to you is to go into the meeting on Friday and keep an open mind, but also be 100% truthful and open about your view and how you see things. In addition, challenge yourself to be one of the people who will fiercely look at their own self and put their own house in order. Even if sex is boring because she won't anticipate or initiate, be personally responsible for the part that you bring to the plate because it makes you a better man and person. I call this keeping your side of the road clean. The road has two sides (left and right) but it goes in the same direction. You keep YOUR side orderly and let her choose if she wants to look at the mess on her side, or continue to pretend that there's no mess and no cracks and potholes. 

Okay? Take a breath--it will be okay.


----------



## Casual Observer

As usual, @Affaircare nails it. There was definitely a lot of filtering going on, and my wife definitely put herself in the best-possible light. As I'd said, my wife asked me for a list of things to bring up, but I told her this was her session, I didn't want to taint or direct it. So, why would I have expected anything different? Probably because of the email exchange I had with the MC, when she had that "aha" moment and said "I knew it!" w/regards the past trauma. 

So... we had a really rough night following her individual counseling session, since my wife's view was that she was vindicated and all issues were mine. There was no way we were going to get anywhere dealing with this at home, so I asked her to come down after work, away from the (grown) kids who still live with us, away from the constraints of time and the tainting of the bedroom (not a good idea to associate the bedroom with bad things). She thought we'd go to a restaurant; I set the tone for this being serious by telling her I didn't want to be worried about making a scene. 

It was about 90 minutes of sitting out back of the shop, eating Carl's Jr hamburgers that she brought with her, and discussing things past, present & future. It was so strange that she didn't get how it feels to me, when I'm working my butt off trying to keep the biz afloat, when she constantly complains that I don't bring home enough money. I think, I hope, I pray that I finally got a long-lasting epiphany on that one. I asked her, how would it feel if I constantly complained about her cooking? That would DEVASTATE her. She'd probably leave. 

We have another session, together, tomorrow. We're going to push the topic of her boredom with our routine, her inability to make an emotional investment in just about anything, and how to work around my very HD needs without making me feel guilty or like a pervert. I will also point out that, were it not for her 180 after freaking out about what had gone on with that past guy, she absolutely positively would not have married me. I don't think the counselor gets that yet. My wife's life went from exciting and new from day to day... to, what, how do I say this without throwing myself under the bus? Never mind, here comes the bus, here I go. Boring. Routine. Reliable. That's me. She never really adapted to that. At a conscious level, she got what she wanted in marriage. The stability, the security, not having to be constantly thinking about a new relationship and if anything might work out. 

For me, emotional investment in the routine comes from loving that person with all my heart & soul & body. For her, emotional investment comes from the thrill of the new. I mentally create my own excitement. To me, foreplay begins half an hour after the last time we have sex. To her, it's over, nothing to see now, move along. For me, in the most routine of things, I look for that little something that's different, that I didn't notice before. It's there. It becomes a game, sometimes, trying to find it. When I make the bed I try to do something a little bit different each time. Where I might place a flower. How I fold the blankets. The problem is my expectation that she'd notice. To her, she comes into the room, sees the bed is made, and thinks... that's nice. But, as I've said before, it wouldn't disappoint her if it wasn't. And yet, and I just thought of this, the kitchen stuff may be key... she expects me to be very disappointed if she hasn't made dinner.

More soon. But I remain hopeful. She's tasked with coming up with some solutions herself, instead of depending upon me to do everything and then not be happy with what I come up with. Film at 11!


----------



## Tasorundo

Casual, I hope you get through the time before the session ok. It is always tough having something hanging there.

It does sound like you are taking charge of your life in a sense, which has to feel somewhat empowering, even if the results so far have been lackluster.

Could you summarize how you think your wife feels about you in a sentence?

When you get in there, if it feels like they are ganging up you, speak up about it. In a calm way, say how you are feeling. My last session with my wife and counselor I really felt ganged up on and it was like I couldn't win no matter what I said. It was not a lot of fun.


----------



## SunCMars

Long term consequences frequently remain fresh when those committing the tort refuse to abort the lie.
Belying the scars remaining.
The errant person still off on that _Fools Errand._


----------



## SunCMars

Casual Observer said:


> As usual, @Affaircare nails it. There was definitely a lot of filtering going on, and my wife definitely put herself in the best-possible light. As I'd said, my wife asked me for a list of things to bring up, but I told her this was her session, I didn't want to taint or direct it. So, why would I have expected anything different? Probably because of the email exchange I had with the MC, when she had that "aha" moment and said "I knew it!" w/regards the past trauma.
> 
> So... we had a really rough night following her individual counseling session, since my wife's view was that she was vindicated and all issues were mine. There was no way we were going to get anywhere dealing with this at home, so I asked her to come down after work, away from the (grown) kids who still live with us, away from the constraints of time and the tainting of the bedroom (not a good idea to associate the bedroom with bad things). She thought we'd go to a restaurant; I set the tone for this being serious by telling her I didn't want to be worried about making a scene.
> 
> It was about 90 minutes of sitting out back of the shop, eating Carl's Jr hamburgers that she brought with her, and discussing things past, present & future. It was so strange that she didn't get how it feels to me, when I'm working my butt off trying to keep the biz afloat, when she constantly complains that I don't bring home enough money. I think, I hope, I pray that I finally got a long-lasting epiphany on that one. I asked her, how would it feel if I constantly complained about her cooking? That would DEVASTATE her. She'd probably leave.
> 
> We have another session, together, tomorrow. We're going to push the topic of her boredom with our routine, her inability to make an emotional investment in just about anything, and how to work around my very HD needs without making me feel guilty or like a pervert. I will also point out that, were it not for her 180 after freaking out about what had gone on with that past guy, she absolutely positively would not have married me. I don't think the counselor gets that yet. My wife's life went from exciting and new from day to day... to, what, how do I say this without throwing myself under the bus? Never mind, here comes the bus, here I go. Boring. Routine. Reliable. That's me. She never really adapted to that. At a conscious level, she got what she wanted in marriage. The stability, the security, not having to be constantly thinking about a new relationship and if anything might work out.
> 
> For me, emotional investment in the routine comes from loving that person with all my heart & soul & body. For her, emotional investment comes from the thrill of the new. I mentally create my own excitement. To me, foreplay begins half an hour after the last time we have sex. To her, it's over, nothing to see now, move along. For me, in the most routine of things, I look for that little something that's different, that I didn't notice before. It's there. It becomes a game, sometimes, trying to find it. When I make the bed I try to do something a little bit different each time. Where I might place a flower. How I fold the blankets. The problem is my expectation that she'd notice. To her, she comes into the room, sees the bed is made, and thinks... that's nice. But, as I've said before, it wouldn't disappoint her if it wasn't. And yet, and I just thought of this, the kitchen stuff may be key... she expects me to be very disappointed if she hasn't made dinner.
> 
> More soon. But I remain hopeful. She's tasked with coming up with some solutions herself, instead of depending upon me to do everything and then not be happy with what I come up with. Film at 11!


I read this and weep...
Well, not really, but close.

She is who she is, you want else, else in in someone else, not her.

Take her as she is, or who she will 'now' pretend to be.....or not.

It is OK to leave this woman, I give you permission.


Lilith-


----------



## Affaircare

@Casual Observer, 

I think it is important to state that the role of a counselor or therapist is not be a judge and pick a side. They are not referees who say that one is "wrong" and the other is "right"...and now the "wrong" person has to do it the "right" person's way. They also are not lie detectors who can instantly determine if one is lying and the other is telling the truth. 

Nope the role of a counselor or therapist is to provide coaching to help their patients manage their stress, redirect disturbing emotions and set goals for themselves. A therapist's goal is to help patients make decisions and clarify their feelings in order to solve problems.

Soooo...a counselor is going to want to hear each person's thoughts and feelings, help each person to analyze and define their own thoughts and feelings, and then help each person to make some decisions, set some goals, and act. IC work "for the individual" and a MC works "for the marriage"--and the idea is that a MC will help the two parties to relate in a mentally healthy way. 

Here's the thing: to YOU your higher sexual drive is completely normal, and the way you do those little things differently every day is completely normal, so you think that is normal for everyone. To your wife, maybe lower drive or "same-old-same-old" or doing things exactly the same way all the time is normal, and she thinks that is normal for everyone. Yep, some of it could be in part due to the traumatic event 40 years ago...but some of it could be that's just the way she is (namely, she is secure in routine and customs and little everyday traditions). 

Just think about it.


----------



## Casual Observer

SunCMars said:


> I read this and weep...
> Well, not really, but close.
> 
> She is who she is, you want else, else in in someone else, not her.
> 
> Take her as she is, or who she will 'now' pretend to be.....or not.
> 
> It is OK to leave this woman, I give you permission.
> 
> 
> Lilith-


Not giving up that easily. Yes, I made a mistake 35+ years ago not confronting this and dealing with the obvious. I got where I am today because of excessive patience and a willingness to adapt. I did not have the conversations over the years that I should have had. I cannot assume those conversations today would be without merit. I cannot assume that finally seeking counseling is without merit. I have hope. She loves me very much. I love her very much. I don't even think what we're going through is so unusual, but rather that my transparent verbal babble might make the typical sound worse than it really is.


----------



## Casual Observer

Affaircare said:


> @Casual Observer,
> 
> 
> Here's the thing: to YOU your higher sexual drive is completely normal, and the way you do those little things differently every day is completely normal, so you think that is normal for everyone. To your wife, maybe lower drive or "same-old-same-old" or doing things exactly the same way all the time is normal, and she thinks that is normal for everyone. Yep, some of it could be in part due to the traumatic event 40 years ago...but some of it could be that's just the way she is (namely, she is secure in routine and customs and little everyday traditions).
> 
> Just think about it.


I don't know if this is important or not, but you have things 100% flipped around regarding what's normal and what's not. She expects things to be constantly different and changing or she's bored. I'm the opposite. She's essentially the person with the adrenalin-driven happiness. The HD vs LD thing is an interesting topic because she's part-time *very* HD when the focus is entirely upon herself. Just has a hard time not feeling guilty about it. Her sex drive was actually dramatically lower, hugely-so, early on. Mine, curiously, hasn't really changed over the years, which I admit is not normal. 

Normal is over-rated anyway. Normal is a box we thing we should fit into when we think there's an aberration in our character, or someone else's. 

The IC & MC process is a long one, I know this. I think our situation would be in a better light if posts weren't so close to real-time and you could see long-term patterns of growth rather than the short term roller-coaster ride that's likely common at the beginning. Or, I'm just rationalizing to make myself feel better.


----------



## Casual Observer

Update after latest MC session this morning- (but will say ahead of time how much I look forward to the comments from a few asking why I'm torturing my wife with all this, or myself, or both, and how we just weren't right for each other from the start. I still believe this is a marriage worth saving. Or maybe it's a marriage we never really had but now we can start.)

Interesting session. My wife told the MC that yes, it's true, at the beginning of our relationship, and until we had sex, she was the HD, not me. That everything up to sex was exciting and fun while sex itself was (and is) boring and emotionally empty. Things are going to start getting weird.

The whole boredom thing is a real issue for me. With a very slightly different attitude and without the physical impairments (her weight and breast disfigurement) I might be looking at someone who would be stepping out for fun. It's a bit shocking to discover just how much you're taken for granted. That yes, she loves me, but the weird thing is that she thinks I'm not romantic because she defines romance as grand sweeping things and not all the little things I do that I don't have to do. The MC knows that I've got issues I need to move on from, but she can't get a handle on why my wife isn't more emotionally invested in me.

The MC also asked if she had any friends. This was perceptive, not in response to anything said. My wife really doesn't have any close or even casual friends. I've been trying to get her to reconnect with her friends from the past on FB; they're constantly responding when I put stuff up on my page about her. Her friends are still out there, she just won't make the effort to connect. She thinks FB is narcissistic. The MC pretty much told her that FB is probably a good place for her to spend some time and reconnect.

Game playing was discussed as well. My wife insists that she plays card games on the computer for (guessing) a couple hours a day to keep her mind sharp. I've told her, and told the MC, that she goes to the games to take her mind off everything else, and she's become a bit of a game dopamine junky. She's getting her "high" from games instead of everything else. I'm thinking it's kind of like porn? I used to look at porn a bit, but funny thing, since the crisis back in March, I haven't looked a single time. Not once. Weird thing, that? 

The MC tasked us with removing clutter from our life, specifically physical clutter since it's an issue for my wife that the house isn't how she'd like it to look. 

I am so glad the bleep hit the fan in March. I didn't fully understand how badly things needed to be dealt with. I knew, last summer, that divorce was on my mind, but it was that odd sort of thing where you really couldn't put a finger on the specifics of why.

We meet again next Wednesday.


----------



## Tasorundo

Other than cleaning the house, is there anything else you guys are supposed to work on?

The way you describe this session and your wife, does she love anyone other than herself? It seems like the only thing that matters to her, is her, and what she wants to do.

Any discussion of the pre-marriage sex issue?


----------



## OnTheFly

Casual Observer said:


> Update after latest MC session this morning- (but will say ahead of time how much I look forward to the comments from a few asking why I'm torturing my wife with all this, or myself, or both, and how we just weren't right for each other from the start. *I still believe this is a marriage worth saving*. Or maybe it's a marriage we never really had but now we can start.)


If the bolded ^^^^^ isn't acceptable to the ''few'', tell'm to **** off....seriously.


----------



## Marduk

What's your goal here, @Casual Observer? 

If you could achieve everything you're trying to achieve with and through your marriage... what would those things be?

I guess I'm kinda wondering if you've just been singing from her songsheet this whole time. Or maybe I have this wrong.


----------



## Casual Observer

Tasorundo said:


> Other than cleaning the house, is there anything else you guys are supposed to work on?
> 
> The way you describe this session and your wife, does she love anyone other than herself? It seems like the only thing that matters to her, is her, and what she wants to do.
> 
> Any discussion of the pre-marriage sex issue?


That's a bit harsher than the reality. I don't think she loves herself; I think that's part of the problem. Another part of the problem is that it's tough to figure out exactly what she wants. The easy answer is the easy life. Why can't we have more money, why do we still have our adult kids living with us, why do we have rats in the house, why can't we spend money we don't have to paint the house and hire an exterminator, why do I have to work so hard and others have it so easy, the list goes on. 

The pre-marriage sex issue is to be discussed next session. Sex in general will be the primary topic of discussion. It's not a pre-"marriage" sex issue. That would be too simple. It's a pre-sex sex issue, if that makes sense. She was very HD when it wasn't PIV sex. When we entered that phase, bam, emotional and physical shutdown in terms of libido. Which is what seems to have happened with the prior guy that she kept secret. If I'd known what was coming, I would have approached things very differently. This is what remains so unfair about how she handled things back then. And truthfully, had I known this was going to be the case (shutdown of libido), and it didn't seem easily dealt with, I would not have married her. That's an interesting thing to say.



Marduk said:


> What's your goal here, @Casual Observer?
> 
> If you could achieve everything you're trying to achieve with and through your marriage... what would those things be?
> 
> I guess I'm kinda wondering if you've just been singing from her songsheet this whole time. Or maybe I have this wrong.


Not sure what you mean by singing from her songsheet the whole time. She's got issues, but so do I. We've had a lot of great times together. I never expected marriage to be something that didn't require work and patience. She's also given me flexibility to do the things I want. My yearly July 10 day trip to France for the 'Tour. 

Could you elaborate though? I don't want to come across as suggesting all issues are with my wife. To make things work will require some compromise. And something I should have made clear... since the crisis in March, the quantity of sex has been ramped up substantially. Very few here would complain about the frequency, which is likely 5x/week. But it's "just" sex. Passionless for the most part. It's more than "duty" sex, perhaps better seen as "desperate" sex? As in, I'm doing this to keep my husband? She pulls out the cancer card so frequently, how she doesn't have any useful hormones anymore, how can I expect her to respond. I'd feel differently if she were simply dead to life in general, but she's not. She does respond with passion when we're on a vacation some far away place. But the trigger level to get that response is absurd. I clearly do not normally meet her expectations for excitement, and yet most people looking at her would think she's the furthest-possible-person from a thrill seeker, more of a stay-at-home & eat bon-bons type of person. 

For now, the plan is to work on cleaning up the bedroom, getting rid of stuff that isn't needed, install a medicine cabinet in the bathroom so the counter isn't filled with the zillion meds needed by a couple in their 60s, new lighting, mirrors on the ceiling (just kidding!!!), and she is tasked with running down info on making sex interesting when one person is quite overweight (which limits a lot of the "movie sex" positions, y'know?) and looking into a wedge. If she actually follows through on that, for more than 48 hours, it will be a first.


----------



## Tasorundo

Those seems like things anyone can say. It sounds like a real problem with contentment. Why can't you enjoy what you have, rather than long for what you dont?


----------



## Marduk

Casual Observer said:


> Not sure what you mean by singing from her songsheet the whole time. She's got issues, but so do I. We've had a lot of great times together. I never expected marriage to be something that didn't require work and patience. She's also given me flexibility to do the things I want. My yearly July 10 day trip to France for the 'Tour.


What I'm getting at is that you both seem a bit to be living two lives.

She has her life independent of you .

You have your life independent of her.

This is good! Nothing wrong with that.

But your life together... seems to be all about facilitating her happiness with the least expenditure of her effort as possible.

Grooving on stuff you write like this:



> She also said "*The only thing she looks forward to are our vacations*." That's been a big issue since the beginning. *The complete lack of anticipation of something pleasurable.* I explained to her that the most painful thing I read in her diary was the remark to that immediately-prior boyfriend "Not tonight but I'll make it up to you tomorrow!" not because it might have been about sex but because prior to me, she really looked forward to what she was going to be doing the next day or whatever. *That hasn't been the case pretty much the entire time we've been married.*


I guess I'm reflecting on my own first marriage where my ex wife would say/do stuff like that... and continually invent new hoops for me to jump through to make her happy. Only they would never make her happy, and became more and more about power than about happiness.

I get she's having sex with you now... but she's just going through the motions.

Getting her own happiness (getting you off her back) with the least expenditure of energy/attention possible (no real effort in it).


----------



## Casual Observer

Tasorundo said:


> Those seems like things anyone can say. It sounds like a real problem with contentment. Why can't you enjoy what you have, rather than long for what you dont?


Is that question for her, or me? Or both?

I'm not "man enough" to handle being told that my wife has held things from me like resenting sex ("resentment" was her word, not my paraphrasing) for 40 years, that I'm boring despite learning that's exactly why she chose me in the first place (to get away from a lifestyle that was at odds with her religious upbringing)... that's not going to be a gut kick that causes you to rethink and question your remaining years?

"Meh" doesn't work for me. Nor does feeling guilty about my expectations for sex.


----------



## Marduk

Casual Observer said:


> "Meh" doesn't work for me. Nor does feeling guilty about my expectations for sex.


How far is this going to go?

Would you be willing to walk away if she just doesn't want that with you?


----------



## Tasorundo

Casual Observer said:


> Is that question for her, or me? Or both?
> 
> I'm not "man enough" to handle being told that my wife has held things from me like resenting sex ("resentment" was her word, not my paraphrasing) for 40 years, that I'm boring despite learning that's exactly why she chose me in the first place (to get away from a lifestyle that was at odds with her religious upbringing)... that's not going to be a gut kick that causes you to rethink and question your remaining years?
> 
> "Meh" doesn't work for me. Nor does feeling guilty about my expectations for sex.


It is a question for her, not you.

She wants everything she doesn't have. She had a 'bad guy' so she ran to you. She has you, so now she craves difference, excitement, wealth, adventure, whatever. You may well be enough of those things for any healthy person. She is not healthy though, at least not from the sound of this stuff. She sounds like a person that desires to be anything than what she is, like someone who fantasizes about being a character in a romance novel, or other fiction.


----------



## JustTheWife

Wow, this really hits home.

I met my husband in college and we were just friends for a while. We're now in our 20s. I was very promiscuous in my earlier years. Grew up in a very religious family. My husband also. We met through religious organizations in college. As we were friends I didn't mention my promiscuous history (in fact i was still being promiscuous). He said that he was a virgin and i led him to believe i was too - and that i didn't believe in pre-marital sex. But slowly we started to get romantic. I never corrected my lies --actually, they were just secrets when we were just friends. Now we're married. He's got a big position in our church. He has no idea that of my history. I can't tell him the truth about what I did. It would be over if I did.

I feel like i have two lives. My life with my husband and our church. And all that i've hidden about my past.

I hope you find peace.


----------



## Casual Observer

Marduk said:


> How far is this going to go?
> 
> Would you be willing to walk away if she just doesn't want that with you?


I was ready last Summer, so I'm ready now. But I recognize that MC is a long process, not a quick fix. That it's going to unearth some painful stuff. That things might get worse before they get better. And that playing this out in real time on TAM isn't anything at all as fun to read as @20yrs thread-of-all-threads on marital cheating. My wife and I are the boring real-world examples that are probably far more abundant than people realize. There's nothing exciting here, so anything at all interesting might be getting blown out of proportion to keep both writer and audience from falling asleep.



Tasorundo said:


> It is a question for her, not you.
> 
> She wants everything she doesn't have. She had a 'bad guy' so she ran to you. She has you, so now she craves difference, excitement, wealth, adventure, whatever. You may well be enough of those things for any healthy person. She is not healthy though, at least not from the sound of this stuff. She sounds like a person that desires to be anything than what she is, like someone who fantasizes about being a character in a romance novel, or other fiction.


It's easy to think that based on what I've written. But I've also got to be wary of my own bias in wishing to place too much blame on this one "bad guy" and not enough on my own shortcomings early in our relationship and marriage. However, it's only recently that I've actually connected the dots. Until a week ago, I had not given any thought to the fact that initially, my wife had a considerably-higher libido than I did. OK, so you think that's all about attracting a guy. Once married, it all ends, right? Except that it all ended long before we got married. Her libido crashed the night we first had sex. Wow. Does this make me feel inadequate or what???!!! When I read what I just wrote, I mean, is that about the most-emasculating thing you could think of?

This "bad guy" semi-dumped her when he either did or didn't get what he wanted though. She didn't want any more "bad guys" or a wilder lifestyle at that point. She wanted, as they say here, marriage material. The sex issue with me was, I believe (because I want to believe?) inherited from her experience with the "bad guy." She did not like whatever that experience was with him, and that carried through to me. She described it in the exact same terms each time. I had no idea whatsoever that I was running into a buzz saw at the time. Oh to be young and stupid and have no future, right?

I don't think she questions that she made the right choice, choosing me. What she doesn't understand is why it should matter how I feel about this now, after 40+ years. It's kind of nuts to think she wouldn't understand why it would affect her partner to hear that she's resented sex and finds him kind of boring.


----------



## Casual Observer

JustTheWife said:


> Wow, this really hits home.
> 
> I met my husband in college and we were just friends for a while. We're now in our 20s. I was very promiscuous in my earlier years. Grew up in a very religious family. My husband also. We met through religious organizations in college. As we were friends I didn't mention my promiscuous history (in fact i was still being promiscuous). He said that he was a virgin and i led him to believe i was too - and that i didn't believe in pre-marital sex. But slowly we started to get romantic. I never corrected my lies --actually, they were just secrets when we were just friends. Now we're married. He's got a big position in our church. He has no idea that of my history. I can't tell him the truth about what I did. It would be over if I did.
> 
> I feel like i have two lives. My life with my husband and our church. And all that i've hidden about my past.
> 
> I hope you find peace.


I will pray that you can get out from under this burden, because it will become so much worse over time. You will forever be concerned he will find out, and that can eat you alive. Your story does sound so very close to home. Especially the part about first becoming friends. 

But that's just me, looking back at the damage done in my own marriage. Things would have been so much better had I known at the time. Mostly because I'm a curious person and notice things that are out of place, and my wife had many things that seemed out of place for her professed narrative. You husband could be very much unlike me, living only in the present and the future. 

Whatever the case, if you don't yet have kids, get this out in the open first. If there's going to be a major issue, get it over while the downside is less.


----------



## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> It's kind of nuts to think she wouldn't understand why it would affect her partner to hear that she's resented sex and finds him kind of boring.


As I said before, prepare yourself for some more surprises... hopefully not negative ones. Because what you are doing is destabilising and undermining her world. She doesn't understand why. I get it you want to know to rationalise it (I'm like that too), but I doubt she will ever tell you the truth. Having said that, if you are not comfortable with the situation and you were contemplating divorce, MC is probably the right way to go. And I'm not saying you shouldn't try to save your marriage. I tried for years.


----------



## TJW

Casual Observer said:


> Her libido crashed the night we first had sex. Wow. Does this make me feel inadequate or what???!!! When I read what I just wrote, I mean, is that about the most-emasculating thing you could think of?


Yes, it is indeed, the most emasculating thing there is. She has delivered you complete rejection. But, she doesn't understand, because "sex isn't important" - compared with the security aspect of marriage. For her, it's not a high priority. 

In fact, you may be quite right that her life prior to marriage has brought "baggage" along into your relationship, and this baggage may be an impediment to a fulfilling sex life for her. 



Casual Observer said:


> She wanted, as they say here, marriage material.
> I don't think she questions that she made the right choice, choosing me.


That would also be a correct observation, from my viewpoint. "Marriage material" far outweighs sexuality. She chose a good man who meets most of her needs. It's just too bad that she has no insight to his needs, and how she denies him fulfillment.
@JustTheWife has also described how "secrets" become lies in marriage. I think your wife has secrets, too.


----------



## TJW

In Absentia said:


> ..... what you are doing is destabilising and undermining her world. She doesn't understand why.


Her "world" is built on SECURITY. "Marriage material"....White picket fence, 2.4 kids, car and SUV. She doesn't understand a world built on SIGNIFICANCE, or a world in which a wife is the prime significance provider.



In Absentia said:


> I doubt she will ever tell you the truth.


Yes, I agree. @JustTheWife is giving you insight there. The truth will likely destroy her marriage. Your wife may feel the same, that "coming clean" is not a storm your marriage could weather.



Casual Observer said:


> So much may have been built upon that lie that the risk of an extremely-negative response becomes the overwhelming driving force to keep the lie going.


----------



## Casual Observer

TJW said:


> Yes, it is indeed, the most emasculating thing there is. She has delivered you complete rejection. But, she doesn't understand, because "sex isn't important" - compared with the security aspect of marriage. For her, it's not a high priority.
> 
> In fact, you may be quite right that her life prior to marriage has brought "baggage" along into your relationship, and this baggage may be an impediment to a fulfilling sex life for her.
> 
> 
> 
> That would also be a correct observation, from my viewpoint. "Marriage material" far outweighs sexuality. She chose a good man who meets most of her needs. It's just too bad that she has no insight to his needs, and how she denies him fulfillment.
> 
> @JustTheWife has also described how "secrets" become lies in marriage. I think your wife has secrets, too.


Umm... first of all, as a guy speaking to a fellow guy, the first thing you're supposed to tell me when I say something like "Her libido ran high until the first time we had sex" is that I'm totally wrong and misinterpreting things. Geez! 

Second, yes, the point of a good number of my recent posts has been my wife's secrets, and the mass of TAM coming down largely on the side of, what happened 42 years ago shouldn't be enough to risk everything today. Wonder if that would still have been the case had I made the connection to having sex with my not-yet-then wife and her libido crash? Nah. Probably just would have had a lot of comments about how clueless I was and still am about her sexuality. :|



In Absentia said:


> As I said before, prepare yourself for some more surprises... hopefully not negative ones. Because what you are doing is destabilising and undermining her world. She doesn't understand why. I get it you want to know to rationalise it (I'm like that too), but I doubt she will ever tell you the truth. Having said that, if you are not comfortable with the situation and you were contemplating divorce, MC is probably the right way to go. And I'm not saying you shouldn't try to save your marriage. I tried for years.


I would appreciate negative surprises that bring clarity. My situation is so strange right now. Last summer, if you'd told me I'd be going through this, the discoveries about the guy immediately before me, the lies (not just omissions) and then drawing a connection between her encounter with him and our first time PIV sex, I would, without question, have given zero chance of the marriage continuing. But today I'm a different person. I'm beginning to make sense of things, and she is beginning to see the light, understand what's been missing from our marriage and why it should actually matter. 



TJW said:


> Her "world" is built on SECURITY. "Marriage material"....White picket fence, 2.4 kids, car and SUV. She doesn't understand a world built on SIGNIFICANCE, or a world in which a wife is the prime significance provider.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I agree. @JustTheWife is giving you insight there. The truth will likely destroy her marriage. Your wife may feel the same, that "coming clean" is not a storm your marriage could weather.


 @JustTheWife is in a parallel but different universe. Nobody went through a radical, transformative change after intimacy in her story. My wife's secrets are a pride thing, not fear that I'd leave. At this point, she understands it's keeping secrets that could cause things to implode; telling them, without trickle-truthing, she knows that's the safest path. But it's something I will go over again shortly; thanks for the reminder.


----------



## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> and she is beginning to see the light, understand what's been missing from our marriage and why it should actually matter.


For some reason, I've missed this bit... I thought she blamed you at IC.


----------



## JustTheWife

Casual Observer said:


> I will pray that you can get out from under this burden, because it will become so much worse over time. You will forever be concerned he will find out, and that can eat you alive. Your story does sound so very close to home. Especially the part about first becoming friends.
> 
> But that's just me, looking back at the damage done in my own marriage. Things would have been so much better had I known at the time. Mostly because I'm a curious person and notice things that are out of place, and my wife had many things that seemed out of place for her professed narrative. You husband could be very much unlike me, living only in the present and the future.
> 
> Whatever the case, if you don't yet have kids, get this out in the open first. If there's going to be a major issue, get it over while the downside is less.


Thank you for this. Yes, i am concerned that my secrets will all come out. I don't know if my husband has noticed anything "out of place". I got a lot of backlash here because of my lies and I should expect that. But as I said, the secret turned to a lie when we started to date and get together. I just left it and never addressed it. Took the way that I thought was easiest and safest. Who knows how it will turn out. Maybe I was right or maybe I was wrong in that. But whichever way it turns out, in the end i'm a liar and a sinner.

I hope that things get better for you and that you can make peace with her past. I don't know if my husband could ever make peace with my past if he knew the whole truth. There are some things that I just could never tell him. So for now i pray every day that my secrets stay safe.


----------



## Tilted 1

CO, in a strange sort of way, she maybe wanted to get this out possibly to a odd point of view. Why did she keeps them after all this time. She knew somewhere in the back of her mind she needed to address this, but it took 40 years to do. If at the least to keep the diary it's a keepsake, but for what purpose? Was it to be used a a get out of jail excuse? Maybe and you coming across it just didn't serve her purpose at this time and she allowed it to be found years later. If would be no different than a man keeping for example panties as souvenirs why? I blame you not it is her disregard to you. I get it, why this shakes you to the core. Now she has to also come along side with you and be open, and l like you need to hash it out for the sake of your own sanity. 

It's been said already to let go of the past, in context she was only thinking of herself and continues to do so. You are doing what is necessary and if she wants to be a loving spouse and and deal with the hurt you are experiencing today. Because of her love for you will do so and she is not by herself you are walking with her.


----------



## Casual Observer

I've decided on a course of action that might fix me and continue forward in marriage in a positive fashion. The big issue with how our relationship began is that I had no idea of the baggage she was carrying, essentially that she was looking to me for a "do-over" of a time when things got out of her control with that prior boyfriend. 

So I want my own do-over. Actually "our" do-over. I'm going to propose at MC that my wife and I have the same conversations we had prior to entering our LTR & marriage, only with the truth. Followed by a renewal of our vows, and a completely different approach to sex than back then (which was a complete failure because I had no clue she'd kinda been there and was looking for something physical, which didn't happen, again, and I didn't recognize that emotional intimacy was completely lacking because there had been none prior, plus some abandonment, so if sex wasn't going to be skyrockets and eyes rolling back into her head, what was the point?).

So a very grand plan which will include a trip to Israel with vow renewal at the Church in Cana, where Jesus performed the wedding miracle. 

I'd previously not had that much interest in visiting Israel, but so much has changed for me over the past 6 months. I am not the person I was before. It's a very strange thing to have changed my priorities so much, changed my routines, and feel good about it. I don't yet know if she can change. She will need to see the opportunity and seize the day. 42 years with her and I'm not sure it it will work.


----------



## jlg07

I see all the posts about what YOU are doing for the marriage -- what is SHE doing? What has she suggested to make things better? What has SHE done to earn your forgiveness and show you her remorse? YOU are not going to fix this since YOU didn't cause the issue. SHE needs to own it, and provide a plan to recover.


----------



## Casual Observer

jlg07 said:


> I see all the posts about what YOU are doing for the marriage -- what is SHE doing? What has she suggested to make things better? What has SHE done to earn your forgiveness and show you her remorse? YOU are not going to fix this since YOU didn't cause the issue. SHE needs to own it, and provide a plan to recover.


She doesn’t much see the issue from something that was 40+ years ago, and can’t make the connection to how it’s continued to affect things since. I kinda get that; she’s never been much for thinking about anything that involves painful memories. Trouble is, it’s those memories that move us to try and do better. At least for some of us. 

She’s trying. We’ll see how her individual session(s) for depression go. She still thinks that’s just a one-time session and then she’ll have dealt with it. It’s up to the therapist to get her past that.


----------



## Adelais

sokillme said:


> People who are not authentic suck to be married to.


Had I known that my husband was not authentic 29 years ago I would not have married him. Lies of omission destroy trust. Not only can one spouse not trust what a proven liar says, but when they make a habit of lying by omission, they can't even trust what they DON'T say.


----------



## JustTheWife

Adelais said:


> Had I known that my husband was not authentic 29 years ago I would not have married him. Lies of omission destroy trust. Not only can one spouse not trust what a proven liar says, but when they make a habit of lying by omission, they can't even trust what they DON'T say.


Your post made me cry. I can't say for sure but I strongly believe that my husband might not have even wanted to be friends with me in the first place (we started as just friends for many months before dating). Religion was something that we had in common and why we became close friends. So it was like the foundation of our friendship and then our romantic relationship. When we were friends he would say negative stuff about promiscuous people that made me not want to admit my past to him (and I was even still promiscuous when we were friends). it made me feel bad. Like he would talk about "wh***s" as sinners - not in a really mean way but like in the bible as sinners and unpure and shameful. It made me want to keep it a secret forever. I'm not blaming him. I'm a liar and I have to live with that along with my shame. Nobody can trust me if they knew this. Part of it is my weakness. I should have had the courage to confront him as my friend when he said all that stuff about promiscuous people, fornicators, etc. Like explain that i'm not a bad person just for being promiscuous. 

Anyway, i was weak and said nothing. Just sat there quiet feeling shame and making him believe I was pure and untouched. Shame on me for that.


----------



## Johan S.

ConanHub said:


> I find your situation helpful to learn about and I'm interested in the process you two are going through.


I agree! ☝


----------



## OnTheFly

JustTheWife said:


> Your post made me cry. I can't say for sure but I strongly believe that my husband might not have even wanted to be friends with me in the first place (we started as just friends for many months before dating). Religion was something that we had in common and why we became close friends. So it was like the foundation of our friendship and then our romantic relationship. When we were friends he would say negative stuff about promiscuous people that made me not want to admit my past to him (and I was even still promiscuous when we were friends). it made me feel bad. Like he would talk about "wh***s" as sinners - not in a really mean way but like in the bible as sinners and unpure and shameful. It made me want to keep it a secret forever. I'm not blaming him. I'm a liar and I have to live with that along with my shame. Nobody can trust me if they knew this. Part of it is my weakness. I should have had the courage to confront him as my friend when he said all that stuff about promiscuous people, fornicators, etc. Like explain that i'm not a bad person just for being promiscuous.
> 
> Anyway, i was weak and said nothing. Just sat there quiet feeling shame and making him believe I was pure and untouched. Shame on me for that.



1 Corinthians 6:11 (ESV)

11 "And such *were* some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."



The past tense in first part of this verse is very important if you are a Christian. If your promiscuous days are behind you, and I assume they are, then why do you dwell on it when God does not? If you have repented (changed the course of your life) of your past, leave it in the review mirror and keep driving forward.


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## Casual Observer

OnTheFly said:


> 1 Corinthians 6:11 (ESV)
> 
> 11 "And such *were* some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
> 
> 
> 
> The past tense in first part of this verse is very important if you are a Christian. If your promiscuous days are behind you, and I assume they are, then why do you dwell on it when God does not? *If you have repented (changed the course of your life) of your past, leave it in the review mirror and keep driving forward.*


The problem with the bolded part? Your past still exists. Perhaps not in the eyes of God, but among those you shared that past with. I think part of giving up your sins to God is coming to terms with owning those sins. Part of being born again is a split from our past, a new beginning. It does not erase what went on before. It erases the sin from your new soul, but what one did in the past is responsible for leading that person to God. 

You may not have a smooth narrative of your life; you may have a separate pre-belief and post-belief history. 

I think, and I could be wrong about this, but I think the consequences, onward-going, for past misdeeds, is going to be substantially tougher to deal with for the person who was a believer at that time, than for the person who was born again later (and perhaps as a result of those misdeeds).

Please keep in mind I'm not trying to apply judgment to anyone here. When I say misdeeds, that is entirely within the personal context of what you believe now vs then. 

Anyway, I don't see a blanket "Well, Christ has forgiven my sins so those sins are no longer an issue" statement as being completely truthful. At least not within the context of holding things back from someone in a marriage.


----------



## Casual Observer

Update: Our MC session yesterday wasn't fun; W felt I through her under the bus. Which, in this case, just happens to have been the truth. 

The prior night I tried something, while having sex with W I told her I love her and there's no time I feel more connected to her, emotionally, than at that moment. She didn't say anything. Shortly after, she told me she felt nothing. Seriously. She told me she felt nothing emotional whatsoever, it was just a physical act and not something she particularly enjoys. She then tells me about what does float her boat emotionally, and sure, they were sweet thing, how I introduce her to people at work, how I deal with the family, the trips I take her on. And I'm like, OK, that's nice, and my choice was to get into a discussion about how she makes me feel when, while having sex, she tells me something like that (nothing for her emotionally or physically) and essentially downgrade the things she does feel emotionally connected with... a discussion that is going to end up with both of us greatly upset, or just try and pretend it's possible for me to sleep. I chose to pretend I could sleep. Which I didn't do very well.

So I brought that up with the MC, how that made me feel. I brought up again that she initially had the very high libido, *until* we first had sex. I brought up that I ran into a buzz saw with her without any warning, because she'd kept so much from me and intentionally lied. 

W was pretty devastated. And defensive. MC tried to explain to W how emasculating something like that can be, and that it's not normal to feel no emotional connection to someone you love during sex, even if there's nothing physically stimulating. 

Later that evening we left the house and took a walk to the nearby school and sat on the benches, and talked. And I didn't hold back any punches this time. I told her I couldn't keep living the "Groundhog Day" movie where everything repeats over and over and over again, because she'll promise to change, to do x y or z, which lasts about 10 days before she resents whatever it is that she's changed. The stuff where she keeps telling me she's bored and doesn't like routine. But it's OK if it's her routine that she's had for 10 or 15 years? And I told her she doesn't get away with thinking that her past is not an issue, because it simply wasn't fair for me to run into that buzz saw and have no idea what happened. She blamed me for one or two things. But mostly she broke down and cried a lot and said she knew she needed to change. Like I haven't heard that before. 

Tonight she's going to pick up some food and we're going to go to a school or park after work and go over things. I find it works a lot better getting out of the house. The bedroom shouldn't be filled with painful memories. Her plan was to write down things she was going to do to improve our relationship, and because they're written down, she wouldn't be able to so easily change her mind and go into her usual "resentment" mode. She hasn't done this before, so maybe it will work. She knows the clock is running. She knows I've called off the big vacation to Israel with the vow renewal. She knows that, if that doesn't end up back in the works, there may not be another vacation (with me). 

Some of our story is comical. We went from 42 years of really bad and infrequent (by my definition) sex to something approaching hysterical bonding after the discovery of her omissions & lies. The problem is that the recent past is what she focuses on (how can I expect so much sex?) and not the prior 42 years where it was twice a week assuming I begged, and only looked forward to, maybe, if we were on a vacation. The MC was initially looking at how much sex we've been having recently and not getting the big picture of everything prior. 

To be clear, if I made the demand that we had to have sex a minimum of 5 times a week or we wouldn't remain married, she'd go along with it. She'd built up resentment, but she'd go along with it. Going forward, I will not settle for resentment. Nobody should have to. I won't settle for dishonesty. I won't settle for a relationship in which the person I love, the person I have limerance for (still, after all this!!!), feels nothing similar in return. Doesn't even feel guilty about how that makes me feel. 

Sorry for the long-winded manifesto! Please, everyone, wish me luck. Whether you think I'm a total loser, or that my W and I are a total mismatch. I want this to work. I love this woman so much. But I am ready to risk it all, because we should both be happier than we are.


----------



## Tilted 1

Casual Observer;19989933
Anyway said:


> This is in my heart the same, once exposed regardless of time, contrition is to be made to the offended party, and not just once but a continuation show of faith in the sense of good will and testament of a renewed person heart and mind. You do not ask with malice but rather with a belief of unity, going forward. Otherwise the tree bears no fruit. I am old fashion in a sense that if truly omission was made the the offending party must renew my faith in them. So only forward progress is made.
> 
> I believe that at judgement day when l stand before the Holy one, all my deeds though that may have been forgiven by the Lord, doesn't mean that, l still was not accountable for them but rather sets the standard, l only given the happiness in heaven that rewards me for the person l lived. In a sense l may be given a thimble filled to the brim of happiness of which fills my spirit, but just maybe l could have had the ocean.


----------



## OnTheFly

Casual Observer said:


> The problem with the bolded part? Your past still exists. Perhaps not in the eyes of God, but among those you shared that past with. I think part of giving up your sins to God is coming to terms with owning those sins. Part of being born again is a split from our past, a new beginning. It does not erase what went on before. It erases the sin from your new soul, but what one did in the past is responsible for leading that person to God.
> 
> You may not have a smooth narrative of your life; you may have a separate pre-belief and post-belief history.
> 
> I think, and I could be wrong about this, but I think the consequences, onward-going, for past misdeeds, is going to be substantially tougher to deal with for the person who was a believer at that time, than for the person who was born again later (and perhaps as a result of those misdeeds).
> 
> Please keep in mind I'm not trying to apply judgment to anyone here. When I say misdeeds, that is entirely within the personal context of what you believe now vs then.
> 
> Anyway, I don't see a blanket "Well, Christ has forgiven my sins so those sins are no longer an issue" statement as being completely truthful. At least not within the context of holding things back from someone in a marriage.


I don't disagree with any of this.

Actions have consequences, 100%

But in JustTheWife's situation, she's living an unnecessary shame-spiral. 

(for some reason I assumed she was Christian, but on re-reading her post, she said ''very religious'', so apologies if that meant something else. I don't mind posting Scriptures, so no apology there, lol)


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## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> Sorry for the long-winded manifesto! Please, everyone, wish me luck. Whether you think I'm a total loser, or that my W and I are a total mismatch. I want this to work. I love this woman so much. But I am ready to risk it all, because we should both be happier than we are.


What I don't get is why you are basically blackmailing her to change. She doesn't want to. And you are making her very unhappy. Just accept what you got and be happy. This is going to explode in you face... sorry to be blunt.


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## Casual Observer

In Absentia said:


> What I don't get is why you are basically blackmailing her to change. She doesn't want to. And you are making her very unhappy. Just accept what you got and be happy. This is going to explode in you face... sorry to be blunt.


An interesting take on things. So you’re saying if things don’t work in a marriage, if there’s an issue where someone can’t continue if things don’t change, that the other person shouldn’t be given the reasons? They shouldn’t be given the chance to change?

My W Has suffered from depression for over a decade. Probably much longer before dx. This is the first time in her life that her root issues are being addressed. Before this it’s just been pushing pills and telling her they can’t give her the therapy she needs. Just a once every other month visit with a therapist and a short conversation that nothing’s changed, could be worse. 

Now, she is finally getting somewhere with an outside (out of network) therapist who really seems to care and wants to see her once a week. A therapist who believes the goal is not to stop crying by taking pills, but to deal with the reasons she cries. 

None of this would have happened without what you’re calling “blackmail.”


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## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> None of this would have happened without what you’re calling “blackmail.”



I'm a similar situation (pill-swallowing wife for a trauma when she was a teen) and this is what my wife called it. She didn't want to change, she asked me to love her the way she is. I can't, she can't change, so we are divorcing. I hope it works out better for you and that your wife truly loves you and she will change for you and for her sake. I'm just trying to give you a different perspective... probably not a very good one, but a personal one.


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## jlg07

"The prior night I tried something, while having sex with W I told her I love her and there's no time I feel more connected to her, emotionally, than at that moment. She didn't say anything. Shortly after, she told me she felt nothing. Seriously. She told me she felt nothing emotional whatsoever, it was just a physical act and not something she particularly enjoys."

This just sounds to me that SOMETHING happened way back (before you) that wasn't at all in her diary and that she has not discussed with anyone.

The BF she omitted, they didn't have sex, but she wanted to, yes? And that made her feel bad (guilty)?
I presume they did SOME stuff, or she would have felt this bad about it.

BUT, that doesn't explain to me AT ALL the disconnect of emotions with sex.
"Shortly after, she told me she felt nothing. Seriously. She told me she felt nothing emotional whatsoever,"
That is just extreme compartmentalization and it's just not how human bodies work -- the hormones alone should trigger SOMETHING.


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## Casual Observer

In Absentia said:


> I'm a similar situation (pill-swallowing wife for a trauma when she was a teen) and this is what my wife called it. She didn't want to change, she asked me to love her the way she is. I can't, she can't change, so we are divorcing. I hope it works out better for you and that your wife truly loves you and she will change for you and for her sake. I'm just trying to give you a different perspective... probably not a very good one, but a personal one.


I am so sorry for your story, and pray mine doesn't up up similar. I don't think it will. I don't know if this was an issue for you, but for me, I've got too much patience. Too much adaptability. And I allowed & enabled things to occur that should have been dealt with ages ago. 



jlg07 said:


> "The prior night I tried something, while having sex with W I told her I love her and there's no time I feel more connected to her, emotionally, than at that moment. She didn't say anything. Shortly after, she told me she felt nothing. Seriously. She told me she felt nothing emotional whatsoever, it was just a physical act and not something she particularly enjoys."
> 
> This just sounds to me that SOMETHING happened way back (before you) that wasn't at all in her diary and that she has not discussed with anyone.
> 
> The BF she omitted, they didn't have sex, but she wanted to, yes? And that made her feel bad (guilty)?
> I presume they did SOME stuff, or she would have felt this bad about it.
> 
> BUT, that doesn't explain to me AT ALL the disconnect of emotions with sex.
> "Shortly after, she told me she felt nothing. Seriously. She told me she felt nothing emotional whatsoever,"
> That is just extreme compartmentalization and it's just not how human bodies work -- the hormones alone should trigger SOMETHING.


Yeah, I think you've got it. Except that you bring up hormones, and at 62, she is pretty convinced, and it might be the case, that she ain't gone none no more. But that's not good enough. Attraction isn't based entirely on hormones. She can enjoy many things, just not intimacy with me, in bed. But the significant thing is- she...never...has. That goes back to when she was a teenager with a raging libido. Which ended 100% the moment we had sex. So yes, something in her immediate prior past got triggered.

And here's the thing. It doesn't even really matter if that's exactly what happened or not. She needs a reason, even if it's the wrong reason, so she can believe that something caused how she feels, because only then can she have hope that she can recover and get better. Without a reason (even the wrong one), there's no feeling that something can be dealt with. It's like a superhero movie. The superhero plot doesn't work if there's no villain. She needs, we all need, to feel that we have a handle on the cause of our problems.

Oh, the "compartmentalizing" comment. Nailed it. She's all about putting things unpleasant "into a box and locking it up." Her own words.


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## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> I am so sorry for your story, and pray mine doesn't up up similar. I don't think it will. I don't know if this was an issue for you, but for me, I've got too much patience. Too much adaptability. And I allowed & enabled things to occur that should have been dealt with ages ago.


Your wife seems a lot more committed to the marriage than mine. I believe she checked out ages ago. I'm not blaming her. She has her mental issues and she doesn't want to deal with it. Fair enough.


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## Casual Observer

In Absentia said:


> Your wife seems a lot more committed to the marriage than mine. I believe she checked out ages ago. I'm not blaming her. She has her mental issues and she doesn't want to deal with it. Fair enough.


My wife is absolutely not checked out on marriage. She may be, from my perception (which is not shared by her), checked out a bit on me. Seriously, the issue is that she doesn't seem to realize that's how she comes across. Her perspective is virtually impossible to change. But the therapist, seeing both of us, is doing far more to help in that regard than the poor-quality individual counseling she's had previously, which has been more along the lines of providing validation for how she felt. Validation which was interpreted as meaning she is OK to continue as is.

Last night we had a conversation about things over a sort of picnic-dinner away from the house. She came up with something, in writing, that she thinks she can stick to and look forward to. Scheduled sex. Which means I've got to accept days when it's just not going to happen, regardless of how I feel, regardless of opportunity, because I'm as responsible for making this work as she is. There's an opportunity here to change from having sex to making love. I don't think I'll run out of fingers on my hands, counting the number of times we've made love over the past 42 years. 

And I got to tell you, I didn't sleep well last night because in bed, I had this conflict between thinking maybe, maybe my wife is going to stick with this, maybe things can finally work out, maybe she can see sex as something emotional and shared. And what does that do to me? It created a powerful drive to want to hold and hang onto and make love to my wife. At the exact time I needed to provide space for her, support for her idea. That was very hard for me. Pun intended.

I think scheduled sex is a good opportunity for me to demonstrate a willingness to compromise and accept something offered up by her. I need to get behind this in a big way. And hope and pray that it can continue and not become one more thing she decides she actually resents having to do but doesn't tell me until way way way down the road. 

It's going to be interesting. I'm probably closer in drive/need on this board to @ConanHub than anyone else. I could go every single day and sometimes more than once. Where I differ from @ConanHub is that satisfying myself separately from her doesn't work for me. My drive is "driven" by her, not sex itself. I don't think about sex every time an attractive woman comes my way. I don't think about sex 20 times per day (I used to though, when sex was relatively infrequent). But when I'm with my wife, OMG does she do it for me. Just being with her. Her smell. She completes me. Which makes it hurt all the more when I'm told there's no connection to me during sex. 

I've got my work cut out for me. The MC has her work cut out for her. My wife has to stay in the game and not retreat to the bleacher seats with her ipad, playing games. It's a lot to have to come together. But I think it will.


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## farsidejunky

Checked out on you but not the marriage?

Isn't that really just a distinction without a difference?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Casual Observer

farsidejunky said:


> Checked out on you but not the marriage?
> 
> Isn't that really just a distinction without a difference?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Not at all. She can't imagine not being married. She can't imagine not being married to me. But the "me" she imagines being married to is not me. It's a fictitious me that she's created in her mind. She truly sees me as having saved her from a plethora of boyfriends who were after just one thing, and she enjoyed the attention so she strung them along. I was the answer to Life, The Universe & Everything. Only she never quite understood what it meant to pretend she was someone different than who she really was. And I never quite understood what it meant to "save" her. I got the part about "checking off all the boxes" she was looking for in a husband. I did not get the part where she was 180 degrees different from the woman she wanted to be. Maybe that's not even fair. Maybe it's really all about her being a silent adrenalin junkie.


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## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> Checked out on you but not the marriage?
> 
> Isn't that really just a distinction without a difference?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I was thinking the exact same thing. 

I think it’s time to start pulling the pin on this thing, man. You’ve both been through enough at this point.


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## Marduk

Casual Observer said:


> Not at all. She can't imagine not being married. She can't imagine not being married to me. But the "me" she imagines being married to is not me. It's a fictitious me that she's created in her mind. She truly sees me as having saved her from a plethora of boyfriends who were after just one thing, and she enjoyed the attention so she strung them along. I was the answer to Life, The Universe & Everything. Only she never quite understood what it meant to pretend she was someone different than who she really was. And I never quite understood what it meant to "save" her. I got the part about "checking off all the boxes" she was looking for in a husband. I did not get the part where she was 180 degrees different from the woman she wanted to be. Maybe that's not even fair. Maybe it's really all about her being a silent adrenalin junkie.


She doesn’t want you. 

She wants the version of you that only exists in her head. 

Add that to the dishonesty... and the “feeling nothing” and the rest of it...

Time to go think about the rest of your life with someone that actually wants you to be you.


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## Casual Observer

Marduk said:


> She doesn’t want you.
> 
> She wants the version of you that only exists in her head.
> 
> Add that to the dishonesty... and the “feeling nothing” and the rest of it...
> 
> Time to go think about the rest of your life with someone that actually wants you to be you.


Let's see how things play out with her "sex schedule" and further IC (for her) and MC for a while before believing that's the case. She understands what's at stake. And if it takes EMDR therapy to figure out what went on in her past that's destroyed her emotional connection during intimacy, then bring it on. I'm not giving up. Not yet. 

I'm sorry this doesn't play out as excitingly, in real-time, as @20yr "found a condom" thread. She gets to be a hero (for good reason!) while my situation is one where, to some, I might appear more villain than good guy.


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## Openminded

Fantasy is obviously more fun than reality.


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

Casual Observer said:


> Let's see how things play out with her "sex schedule" and further IC (for her) and MC for a while before believing that's the case. She understands what's at stake. And if it takes EMDR therapy to figure out what went on in her past that's destroyed her emotional connection during intimacy, then bring it on. I'm not giving up. Not yet.
> 
> I'm sorry this doesn't play out as excitingly, in real-time, as @20yrs "found a condom" thread. She gets to be a hero (for good reason!) while my situation is one where, to some, I might appear more villain than good guy.


My divorce paperwork was filed with the court this week. My wife had trauma prior us meeting. Affected marriage for 31 years. Now that kids are grown, I told her I wanted a marriage, not a roommate arrangement. She said "I don't want to talk about it" , packed a bag and left.

We had been in MC about 2 years ago, and had a once a week schedule. Like your wife, mine said she felt dead from the waist down. The resentment grew in her, she felt taken advantage of because she HAD to have sex once a week. We usually did it on Sunday morning, so most of day Saturday I was spending quality time with her doing things she wanted to do. At one point she had a anger fit and admitted to feeling guilty because I was rubbing her ankles, cooking her favorite foods, etc. She was looking for any reason to avoid sex.

The thing in your favor is it sounds like your wife is spending time talking to the therapist.

I hope things work out for you, but you might want to think about having a plan b divorce plan.


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## Casual Observer

Openminded said:


> Fantasy is obviously more fun than reality.


Context? My fantasy or my wife's? 

We sometimes act as if rationalization is a bad thing. I don't think it's easy to keep your sanity if you don't have some ability or willingness to rationalize the situation you're in. Nor do I think it's a bad thing to believe in the future, that "hope" thing, that things can be better. And finally, I don't think it's correct to assume that, even though the only person whose mind you can guarantee being able to change is your own, that you can't favorably influence your spouse.

We look at long relationships (42 years for me) and think forget it, you can't change her (or him), it's way too late for that. What about the flip side? You've had 42 years to learn what makes her (or him) tick. Maybe the problem is that you're an idiot and haven't really thought about why the behavior persists, about how most things are in response to something and what you see in her (or him) is a response to your own idiocy? Stop being an idiot and think for a bit and maybe you can come up with doing things that will change her (or his) response.

I am not the same person I was prior to March. I have changed the amount of time (dramatically upward) and quality of time (fewer disruptions) spent with my wife. I no longer accept her apparent willingness to engage me in intimacy as evidence of her desire. I have become far more willing to question things that will make waves, and I will dig until I get past the "I'm fine, no issues" dance even though the answers are going to bother me. 

It takes a crisis. I believe that's key. And who wants to maximize a crisis instead of trying to smooth things over? 

If I was not willing to consider divorce, nothing would or could change. As soon as I embraced the idea that making that possibility very real had merit, a lot changed. For me, and for her. She has said, more than once, tearfully, "I want my husband back." The past six months has shown her that ship has sailed. And she, finally, realizes that there has been intimacy missing from our marriage, and she, finally, realizes that the problem is with her, not me. And MAYBE, and this is the big thing, maybe she will recognize why it's missing. What happened to her prior to meeting me that messed her up so badly about sex. Because if she can't see a reason, she isn't likely to believe in a solution. Her epiphany, if she has one, has to be that "aha!" moment where she recognizes that she brought undeclared baggage into our marriage and that a good part of the solution will be starting over, declaring that baggage, and live a life without guilt-causing secrets.

That sounds so good to me, as I type it. Wonder how much of it is true?


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## Casual Observer

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> My divorce paperwork was filed with the court this week. My wife had trauma prior us meeting. Affected marriage for 31 years. Now that kids are grown, I told her I wanted a marriage, not a roommate arrangement. She said "I don't want to talk about it" , packed a bag and left.
> 
> We had been in MC about 2 years ago, and had a once a week schedule. Like your wife, mine said she felt dead from the waist down. The resentment grew in her, she felt taken advantage of because she HAD to have sex once a week. We usually did it on Sunday morning, so most of day Saturday I was spending quality time with her doing things she wanted to do. At one point she had a anger fit and admitted to feeling guilty because I was rubbing her ankles, cooking her favorite foods, etc. She was looking for any reason to avoid sex.
> 
> The thing in your favor is it sounds like your wife is spending time talking to the therapist.
> 
> I hope things work out for you, but you might want to think about having a plan b divorce plan.


The advantage I have is that she's not "dead down there" if she can occasionally, say once a week, have close-to and sometimes beyond mind-blowing oral orgasms. The cancer card that she pulls out so often... y'know, that type of thing isn't selective. She WANTS oral pleasure. She doesn't allow herself to be open to it all that often, but once a week represents a heck of a lot more sexuality than much of what I read here.

I think there's a good reason for her responsiveness to oral. I don't think she has the hang-ups over past "oral adventures" with other guys that plague her thoughts of sex. That plus it was a skill I brought to the relationship that her prior boyfriends weren't very good at. But PIV sex? She either got far far far too close or maybe completed something that ran against her Christian upbringing and the narrative she gave me. So when she and I first went down that road, it was an experience void of any physical pleasure for her. Well, ok, that's not the end of the world. But it also was completely missing, for her, any sort of emotional connection, because of what had gone on previously. In her mind, she screwed up. She was a very horny teenager pushing her boundaries and fascinated by the attention boys gave her. And she finally met a boy who has probably read that book someone wrote in the 70s about how to get laid, and the way her diary described things, it was textbook. She was played. And then abandoned for 3 days after. So I came along not knowing what had gone on and thought of joining together as one through sex as the greatly emotional thing, and thought she saw it the same way, and well... frankly, we shouldn't have had sex. We should have been discussing what sex is, what it means, rather than it being, to her, a logical box to check off. And quite possibly a box she wanted to check off sooner than later because she didn't want to be thinking, longer than need be, about how she had deceived me about her encounters. Once *we* had sex, that kind of, in a way, made any prior encounter a bit less significant.

So I think having a handle on what had gone on gives us a chance to retrain her mind about the purpose of sex in a marriage, why intimacy is so important, why the emotional aspect is even more-important than the physical.


----------



## Casual Observer

*Update: First "scheduled sex" night*

Yesterday was Day 1 on my wife's "sex schedule" (her idea and her calendar). Pretty long day yesterday, lots of excuses for my wife to be tired, worn down, back was hurting. When I got home, nothing seemed any different than normal. We ate dinner, watched a dumb movie that lasted later than expected, and I'm wondering, hmm, how is this going to play out. Not looking like much so far.

Around 10pm she tells me she's got some preparation to do and she'll text me when to come into the bedroom. OK, this was a bit of a surprise. I thought maybe she was just going to change into something "nice." I wait. And wait. And wait. At 10:27 I get a text saying "OK, I am ready for you to come in." 

So she's actually got three candles going, she's lying on the bed not just in her Kimono but also a slinky teddy I got for her if she ever wanted to have fun, and, well, let's just say I'm surprised. I go slowly; she's got an agenda but so do I. I am not going to waste an opportunity to bring her to an oral climax; this is something she doesn't quite understand, she thinks I'm doing it for her but let's be honest, seeing my wife get turned on is the strongest aphrodisiac in the world for me. And if she's put her mind into a comfortable place for intimacy & sex, that's what it takes for her to really get going. And she did.

And then we did. And if she was faking a connection during "regular" sex, she should be acting in the movies. It's not like she was feeling physically aroused "from" sex, but she was clearly "with me" which is pretty much 90% of the game. And 89% more than normal.

I hope it's not just a one-off thing. Obviously she isn't going to keep up the prep work and all. But it was an act of love on her part, not a mechanical thing to do what had to be done.

I have hope.


----------



## Tilted 1

Outstanding, and don't sell yourself short, a woman may want to do the prep to enhance herself this is just great news. Enjoy and don't over analyze this. Take the new good moments and go with them.


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## oldtruck

Who sets the schedule?

Does wife have to follow the schedule or she is allowed to say no to the schedule
whenever she wants?


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## Casual Observer

oldtruck said:


> Who sets the schedule?
> 
> Does wife have to follow the schedule or she is allowed to say no to the schedule
> whenever she wants?


My wife set the schedule. That was a key thing. She recognized the issues of resentment towards anything she didn't "own." She also understands the importance of make-up sessions, if something can't work out. The lack of never, ever hearing "Not tonight, but I'll make it up to you tomorrow" in my life is a key source of discontent. That will be the second hurdle we'll be crossing sometime soon. I don't want to force the schedule as an absolute, but the concept of making-up missed dates is key.

We have months of MC still ahead of us. She has a number of IC ahead of her. There is no assumption that anything is fixed. Just that a direction has been established and she's actually taken part in a plan. Her schedule is a compromise I can live with. It's far more frequent than most here, with the strong exception of @ConanHub, for people our age (I'm 63, she's 62, and the schedule she came up with is 4x/week). At 4x/week instead of 5 or 6 or even 7, there's an opportunity to build up some positive anticipation and excitement for me. And hopefully even for her. We can have lots of physical intimacy that's not sex without me thinking, if that's all she wants, I'm very frustrated.


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## ConanHub

4x a week seems pretty dang good. Seems like some progress and overall health, relationship wise, takes time and effort from both of you. I'm optimistic here.


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## Casual Observer

ConanHub said:


> 4x a week seems pretty dang good. Seems like some progress and overall health, relationship wise, takes time and effort from both of you. I'm optimistic here.


It is pretty dang good. I'm not naive. Some of the higher frequency recently was due to a degree of hysterical bonding when it became clear to her that there were some real problems and I was more than entertaining the idea that I couldn't put up with things much longer. I couldn't have come up with a better schedule myself. 

The really important thing is that this was HER plan. I did ask that she move some of the days around a bit though; originally she had it as M-W-Sat-Sun. She didn't realize that was 3 days in a row, with a gap from Wednesday to Saturday. I had to tread really lightly on that one; instead of telling her it needed to change, implying she did something wrong, I had to explain that it might be a bit much to expect me to consistently be able to make it a go three days in a row (truthfully, it would not be an issue at all). She was very receptive to that. Whew. 

This doesn't fix everything. But if she can feel she's a part of fixing things instead of believing everything is her fault, that's really good. We still have to go through the discussions of boundary and privacy issues that I thought had been dealt with before we got serious, when in fact I was completely open and honest and she very much otherwise. She accepts that she had a very high libido up until the moment we had sex, and then it disappeared. She does not accept that it's important to figure out why. There's no real (long term) solution until she understands what caused the problem. The MC very much gets this.


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## jlg07

"Yeah, I think you've got it. Except that you bring up hormones, and at 62, she is pretty convinced, and it might be the case, that she ain't gone none no more"
I wasn't talking about estrogen/menopause. I was talking about oxytocin and dopamine.


----------



## Casual Observer

jlg07 said:


> "Yeah, I think you've got it. Except that you bring up hormones, and at 62, she is pretty convinced, and it might be the case, that she ain't gone none no more"
> I wasn't talking about estrogen/menopause. I was talking about oxytocin and dopamine.


Good question. But I don't think Oxytocin is generally measured except through cerebrospinal fluid, which is a complicated procedure compared to normal blood draw? Under what conditions would it be looked into? A bit of reading implies the various things I do, how I take care of myself, how I feel, I could be a High-Oxy person in the same manner someone might be HD, and it's entirely possibly my wife could be the opposite. Interesting to posit the effects of an Oxytocin/Dopamine imbalance in a couple.


----------



## Casual Observer

Latest update: We’re going to alternate weeks between a joint MC session, and an individual session for her, in which the counselor will be dealing with her depression. Kind of odd feelings about that because in a funny way I feel short-changed with more attention on her issues. Which, of course, is exactly what I would have wanted, coming in! But I have enjoyed the sense of validation for our issues and it’s impossible for me not to wonder if I’ll be undermined. Isn’t that just plain stupid? 

My expectation is that she is honest, finally, about what went on just before I came into her life, what happened the put me through the buzz saw. Then we start over, with renewed wedding vows at the site is Cana where Jesus performed his wedding miracle, turning water into wine. This will be just as miraculous for me. 

Already made the commitment, bought the plane tickets today, have to pay for the Israel tour by the 10th. I’m in it deep now.


----------



## Casual Observer

What the MC is beginning to put together is a big picture where memories of pre-sex pleasure and orgasm are intact and help with the present, but something about her first too-close-for-comfort (or perhaps real, still not sure) PIV experience with a guy wrecked the future of PIV for her. She's beginning to get a little tiny bit more open about things; I was telling her last night about the first night we spent together (no sex for many months of such nights) and she was surprised at how she had been in control of things and was doing things with me that I'd not experienced previously and that she was considerably hornier than I was (and I was fairly horny). 

She's very slowly coming around to just how far off base she has been to claim nothing much went on with the prior boyfriend. That her narrative hasn't made sense from the beginning, and that she is in fact dealing with something traumatic. Part of that trauma includes keeping secrets from me for ages, trapping herself in lies that she had to keep up. We're getting somewhere.


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## Sfort

CraigBesuden said:


> I knew that my W’s partner before me was better endowed


Are you glad you know this? How has having this information helped or hurt you?


----------



## Casual Observer

Sfort said:


> Are you glad you know this? How has having this information helped or hurt you?


I find it less interesting how "endowed" a prior guy might have been, than how much fun & excitement she remembers having with the guy. I think some women, my wife being one of them, don't do well with the transition from "fun & excitement" to the routine of long term relationship maintenance. They don't get what's involved, they don't understand it might require work to keep passion alive. They are used to the opposite (passion inspiring them to do the work required to keep things alive, as happened during dating).

This is an invisible thing, not spoken of much until something really earth-shaking happens, and then everything blows up. But by that time, there are a million things to blame it on, and nobody goes back to look at the root cause. Rarely does one reflect upon how he or she was feeling and dealing with things early in the marriage because, after all these years (20, 30, 40?), how could it possibly matter? Why would you focus on something from way back then? Why not move on?

Because that root cause is still there. The infection remains. The idea that passion doesn't require work is rooted like a gigantic steel anchor tied to a tiny sailboat.

I still want to explore my wife, find new things about her, her mind, her body, her everything. That's exciting. To me. I want to date my wife. The same cannot be said in reverse. So I want to start over. But, with her. I want to explore what went on before and being the relationship anew knowing what I didn't know back then, and instead of having sex with her for the first time, I want to make love with her. I want to share in an intimacy that I was denied 42 years ago because she had been freaked out (traumatized) by things that had gone on previously. I want to do the impossible. I may die trying, but I'm not going to settle for less.


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## Sfort

Casual Observer said:


> Rarely does one reflect upon how he or she was feeling and dealing with things early in the marriage because, after all these years (20, 30, 40?), how could it possibly matter? Why would you focus on something from way back then? Why not move on?
> 
> Because that root cause is still there. The infection remains.


Bingo!


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## Livvie

You can't make someone be excited about you or feel passion for you. And, you can't be responsible for those things for both of you, or generate that *yourself* for the relationship. I don't want to be a downer, but please be careful of you doing all of the work for both of you. It almost seems like you are trying very hard to force things by reframing and reframing her past experiences and pushing that reframe into the future and thinking the reframe will magically equal passion for you, interest for you, mutuality. 

Mutuality in a relationship should not be this hard.


----------



## Casual Observer

Livvie said:


> You can't make someone be excited about you or feel passion for you. And, you can't be responsible for those things for both of you, or generate that *yourself* for the relationship. I don't want to be a downer, but please be careful of you doing all of the work for both of you. It almost seems like you are trying very hard to force things by reframing and reframing her past experiences and pushing that reframe into the future and thinking the reframe will magically equal passion for you, interest for you, mutuality.
> 
> Mutuality in a relationship should not be this hard.


Yes, I know. The MC has a really tough job with her. Really, more than anything, all that's missing from my wife are a few simple words now & then. Anything, anytime, to indicate she looks forward to something pleasant/pleasurable. She won't do it because she doesn't know how she'll feel at the time. It's just nuts. And being bored. Which extends to anything I can do. She chose me to remove herself from the life of an adrenalin junkie (by stopping the merry-go-round and getting off with me). She was scared of where her sexuality would lead her. And now she's bored with life and has perverted the concept of scheduled sex to mean that every other time is her time & my time and somehow we're supposed to do something really special. Being with each other isn't special enough. Helping each other through life isn't special enough. I've taken this woman literally all over the world. She's got a Tesla Model 3, which she loves. But none of those create lasting memories of being special. It's a that-was-then thing. 

Hopefully the one-on-one sessions with her and the MC will work well. She really loves the MC. I think it was the right choice, the only possible workable choice, having a woman MC. A very nice woman, 69, been through a lot and tells good stories. Would probably drive some people a bit nuts but it works really well with my wife, and my wife is amazing in her capability to tune people out if she chooses. More than a few times my wife has said something and the MC is just kind of taken aback and asked what the issue is? If I asked that, if most anybody asked that, my wife would normally say something nasty and leave. But she doesn't with the MC. So that's why I have hope.


----------



## Casual Observer

*Update on latest IC w/wife*

Today's IC for my wife appears to have gone better than the last one, where I felt like I got thrown under the bus. My wife was a bit annoyed that the counselor seemed to be going all over the place, but I think that was to help distract from the main question, which was her excessive need for privacy and secrets. More specifically, not just having them but often times specifically lying to keep them. Plus the boundary issues.

Her tune is changing now. The buzz-saw that I ran into when we first had sex is beginning to come into focus. The counselor is challenging her on things she doesn't recall, which she should be able to. Not so much specifics, but overall things that happened immediately prior to meeting me. And now, all of a sudden, we've moved from complete denial of ever being in a compromising situation, of having written in her diary exactly the same description of first-time sex that she gave me a few months later, her saying "In my mind, I had not had sex before you."

Again, the reason this matters, the reason it makes sense to get to whatever did happen, was because it was apparently a traumatic experience for her that greatly affected *our* sex life. Because she had a far greater libido, far greater desire, prior to our first time having sex. And after that, the switch turned off. Completely. For 12 years sex was something she avoided at all costs, any excuse imaginable. And I was too young and too naive to realize it should have been dealt with then. I diverted my attention to my growing business. I put my frustrations elsewhere. It was not until 6 months into her first pregnancy that there was even a hint that sex could be fun, that she had a libido again, that it wasn't painful. Again, as I've said before, this was NOT a case of turning off the libido once she had found her lifelong partner. This was two years before marriage. No bait & switch. This was more about sex being associated with guilt & bad stuff from the past.

We have joint MC on Monday. We'll see where it leads. My wife still hasn't put all the pieces together yet, and that can't happen until all the pieces are identified. But we're getting there. I've said that before. It's a very long process. Many here believe it can't be done. I believe it can.


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## Casual Observer

*Can 42 years of passionless sex all come from the first time?*

Wow. This marriage counseling thing is getting really tough, especially on my wife. She's been really upset about looking at her past and the trust & boundary issues (some of which goes back 42 years ago). Occasionally it feels like we're on the verge of breaking up, even though it seems fairly clear we're making progress by covering the tough stuff.

But the bombshell/epiphany came today, when I surprised here at home (I *never* leave work during the day) because she was really, really upset about things from yesterday's session. I wanted to talk to her away from distractions, and the surprise element also conveyed a sense of seriousness.

And in the end, it all comes down to the first night we had sex, which was less than nothing for her. She was expecting something physically wonderful, and there was none of that to be had. A total letdown from all that had led up to it, and especially, I think, because there was a lot of guilt involved regarding what she'd done with a prior partner and this was possibly an attempt at a do-over that would help cover up the past. A night of sex to remember, instead of a night of sex to forget. Except that it was a night of sex to forget.

And that one single night destroyed any expectations on her part that sex would ever be something worthwhile.

How does that make a guy feel? This is not anything I didn't kind of know, but it's the first time she's talked about it quite this way. To my way of thinking, it's an opportunity to start over. But it really bugs me, still, after all these years, that I didn't know what I was going into (literally I guess?) because she hadn't told me about her previous bad experiences, and had I known, we would *not* have had sex that night, or any other night for some time. I would have been all about the spiritual aspect of making love to the one you love, not the physical act of having an orgasm. She never gave me the chance.

So... wow... right there in the open, finally, just took 42 years to get there???!!! And again, not like I didn't have a strong feeling, but she'd refuse to discuss it before. With the relationship on the line, she's more open. 

Geez. I guess I should have been better prepared for a lack of fireworks for her, but my prior (and only other) girlfriend had no issues at all with great orgasms from PIV sex (and I was her first). 

The interesting thing is how this explains her lack of anticipation of anything pleasant in the bedroom. She can be wildly orgasmic from oral, but she has to be in just exactly the right frame of mind, has to let herself go a bit. I told her my goal is for her to be jealous of any woman that might want to f*** me, because f'ing me is reserved for her (my wife) and nobody else. And I think she kinda sorta got that.


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## Livvie

I totally don't understand. First time, first many times sex, for a very lot of people, isn't great, or is even downright bad. After years of excited leading up to it. It might take awhile to learn what's going on, how to do it, etc. And they don't completely shut down. Your wife did. That's on her, not you. She is definitely not of the norm.


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## Thor

CA, what you describe is pretty textbook for an abuse survivor. You are trying to understand this intellectually, but she processes all of this very differently than you do. She has since before you met her.


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## Marduk

Thor said:


> CA, what you describe is pretty textbook for an abuse survivor. You are trying to understand this intellectually, but she processes all of this very differently than you do. She has since before you met her.


Agreed.

I personally don’t think any of this has to do with the first time you had sex. I think it might have to do with what she thinks of the sum totality of your sexual relationship, and as @Thor says, she’s not likely processing this rationally.

However, again personally, I wouldn’t stand for any of it. This is layer one of this onion, but you should ensure that she doesn’t shift all the BS in your relationship onto you.


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## JBTX

I agree. The omission of pertinent information especially. I was married to a person that lied by omission our entire marriage and I would find things out later that she kept me in the dark about and it made me feel like I was lost. 

I met a woman about two months ago that I am absolutely crazy about after being divorced and mostly not in a relationship for over two years. I made a very conscious choice during our first date(in my head) that I was 1 never going to deliberately lie to her and 2 never keep anything from her that I thought was important and she should know about, regardless of the consequences. I liked her enough to be myself and be truthful about my past. 

The things that I revealed to her she didn’t feel I was obligated to tell her. She didn’t mind that I did and she didn’t judge me harshly either. And she revealed some things to me that she had never told anybody. Not even to her ex-husband who she was married to for 14 years. It was very intimate and we are very comfortable together. Had I not taken those initial steps, I don’t believe we would feel as connected as we do now. We are learning to trust each other. 

I don’t know if we’ll be together years from now. But I do know that I don’t want her discovering something or me deciding to tell her something sometime later and then her feeling that I was disingenuous with her. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Casual Observer

Thor said:


> CA, what you describe is pretty textbook for an abuse survivor. You are trying to understand this intellectually, but she processes all of this very differently than you do. She has since before you met her.


Yes, I agree, but have been having a very tough time getting past her shell. She wrote about a relationship in her diary, immediately before I met her, that went way beyond her narrative (how she described herself to me, while in our "vetting period"). Because it was a bad memory, she hid it and didn't want to, ever, talk about it. It was a two-week period in her life when she had tossed aside her religious ideas of waiting for marriage with a guy she'd met only a few weeks ago who had clearly read the book on how to get laid. She was played. Hard. She claims not to remember much of any of it. She absolutely doesn't remember the diary entry which was titled "Today is the day" and appeared to be all about having sex for the first time, then she walked it back a bit and said she came within 1/4". 

So while not technically an "abuse" survivor, I think it was traumatic for her. Our MC is going to be having a one-on-one with her (without me present) going over those diary entries.



Marduk said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I personally don’t think any of this has to do with the first time you had sex. I think it might have to do with what she thinks of the sum totality of your sexual relationship, and as @Thor says, she’s not likely processing this rationally.
> 
> However, again personally, I wouldn’t stand for any of it. This is layer one of this onion, but you should ensure that she doesn’t shift all the BS in your relationship onto you.


I really prefer to think of this in terms of damage done by the prior guy, not me. And she gets, finally, that I would have proceeded very differently with her, had I a clue. 

As for standing for it, well, I'm not. I did for far too long. That was then, this is now. I told her, it's not qty of sex, it's quality. It's looking at me in that special way that says, this guy is MINE and nobody else gets him. It's making sex spiritual, not theatrical. It's leaning up on a shoulder and just looking at me and thinking passionate thoughts. Touching my face and saying nice things while making love. 

And a recognition that this could have been avoided if she'd been honest up front. An epiphany of that sort would be nice. 

Oh, and a unicorn, and someone to clean the house, the mortgage paid off, business class trips around the world, I want all that too. Except that I don't. None of that matters nearly so much as feeling passion from my wife.


----------



## In Absentia

EDITED... changed my mind...


----------



## Tilted 1

CO, in earlier post, you mentioned the Tesla, is this your way to justify your needs? It was random, l wondering if you are asking quid pro quo ? I just sense it odd. Can you please clarify. Thanks


----------



## In Absentia

I deleted my earlier post because it was way too harsh. I'll rephrase it in a more balanced way: OP, don't you think that maybe you are being a bit selfish in all of this? You seem hell-bent on finding pieces of information that will make you feel better or validate your POV, ignoring the stress and agony you are putting your wife through. I'm not surprised she is not happy. Be careful what you wish for. You might end up with the truth and no marriage.


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## Sfort

I've just gone through this entire thread again. While I can relate to a lot of the frustration that you are experiencing based on some questions I have in my own marriage, it seems to me that you may be opening some cans of worms that will never be closed again. What is the justification for reading her diary? Did she trust you NOT to invade her privacy? If so, did you violate that trust? How has she questioned you about your prior sexual life? 

Whatever she did prior to your marriage is her business. Some would argue that she may be entitled to lie about it. 

Please understand that I'm not being critical since only she and you understand the true dynamics of your relationship, but if you're going to keep digging, you'd better prepare yourself for the answers you might get. Again, I'm struggling with some similar questions, but this thread may be motivating me to leave well enough alone.


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## SadSamIAm

I don't understand the 'trauma' that your wife experienced in her early relationships. She wasn't abused. She was HD and fooled around with a few guys. She enjoyed fooling around and one guy was really pushing for intercourse, but it didn't happen.

I am guessing this is the same thing that the vast majority of girls experienced. 

I was kind of a ladies man when I was younger. I fooled around with a number of girls. Some were religious and didn't want to have intercourse. Some were not experienced at all. The common thing was that they were all horny. They sought me out because I was 'experienced'. They pushed the envelope. I remember making out with a girl that was very religious, petting her breasts through her cloths. The next day she showed up and placed my hands on her breasts. She was extremely nervous, but very turned on. She took off her own shirt and bra and was begging me to touch her. 

I sincerely hope this girl isn't experiencing trauma now because she acted on her impulses. She was young and horny and wanted to experience the feelings. 

Your wife seems to be able to experience pleasure. She likes oral. She doesn't get much from PIV. I think that is also pretty typical. 

I think you should have sex with your wife less often. I think you should make sure that you pleasure her the way she feels pleasure. I know what you mean, when you say turning her on is what makes you tick. I feel the same way. So make her feel good, understanding that is how she feels pleasure. Don't pressure her for intercourse. Don't pressure her to feel something from PIV when she doesn't feel it. Realize that oral and foreplay is for her and intercourse is for you. 

My wife and I are a few years younger than you (in our mid 50s). We have started using a vibrator during PIV. It gives her more pleasure during the act. I realize that she is getting off from the vibrator and not just from me. I am fine with that. Let her be herself.


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## Livvie

The problem as I see it is that OPs wife isn't really interested in him sexually, and isn't passionate about the relationship. OP seems to be trying to get his wife to dig into her past trying to somehow "solve" or change this fact. I don't think anything will change this, there is no revelation that is going to change the way she feels about him.



In Absentia said:


> I deleted my earlier post because it was way too harsh. I'll rephrase it in a more balanced way: OP, don't you think that maybe you are being a bit selfish in all of this? You seem hell-bent on finding pieces of information that will make you feel better or validate your POV, ignoring the stress and agony you are putting your wife through. I'm not surprised she is not happy. Be careful what you wish for. You might end up with the truth and no marriage.


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## Casual Observer

Wow, a real-life TAM 180 on me! Fair enough. I will explain as best I can, but accept that to some degree, I'm guilty as charged.


Tilted 1 said:


> CO, in earlier post, you mentioned the Tesla, is this your way to justify your needs? It was random, l wondering if you are asking quid pro quo ? I just sense it odd. Can you please clarify. Thanks


No, the Tesla had been planned all along; we'd had a deposit on a Model 3 from when they were announced, but couldn't afford one when they became available. Our hand was forced last June when Chevy repossessed our Volt because, although we were paying on it, my wife didn't understand the lease had to be extended every 60 days and she thought she was doing that by continuing to send them the monthly check with a note asking to extend the lease. They sent a letter saying we were in violation of the lease and needed to return the car. She ignored that thinking that wasn't true because they were sending her money. So 10pm on a Sunday night we look out the bedroom window and watch the car being towed away in front of our neighbors...



In Absentia said:


> I deleted my earlier post because it was way too harsh. I'll rephrase it in a more balanced way: OP, don't you think that maybe you are being a bit selfish in all of this? You seem hell-bent on finding pieces of information that will make you feel better or validate your POV, ignoring the stress and agony you are putting your wife through. I'm not surprised she is not happy. Be careful what you wish for. You might end up with the truth and no marriage.


40 years of "passionless" marriage is enough to seek either an end to the marriage (to find that passion elsewhere) or find out why all passion turned off like a light switch the first time we had sex. Which as said previously was two years before we were married. We went through various motions of accommodations over the years, but the marriage started with less than once/week for the first decade or so. I diverted my frustration into building a business. Later, when she realized she had an issue, she allowed the quantity to increase and for a while did a good job of faking that it was OK doing so. Then comes the bombshell that she had been highly resentful of that much sex (twice a week, we're talking about from our 30s-through-40s). 5 years ago it was "If sex is so important to you, why don't you just go screw someone else?" This from a woman whom I truly love and have supported through all manner of issues of her own doing (she has little ability to understand how things she says are seen by others). 

A year ago this summer, LONG before reading the diary entries, I was looking to walk away. The business assets were low enough at that time that it could survive a divorce (nothing to split up), and there was no sign that anything could improve. She had no interest in counseling at that time. She didn't think she had an issue. It was all mine. There was zero spiritual connection between us w/regards intimacy of any sort. She saw everything as a physical act and could not connect the dots to make it work.



Sfort said:


> I've just gone through this entire thread again. While I can relate to a lot of the frustration that you are experiencing based on some questions I have in my own marriage, it seems to me that you may be opening some cans of worms that will never be closed again. What is the justification for reading her diary? Did she trust you NOT to invade her privacy? If so, did you violate that trust? How has she questioned you about your prior sexual life?
> 
> Whatever she did prior to your marriage is her business. Some would argue that she may be entitled to lie about it.
> 
> Please understand that I'm not being critical since only she and you understand the true dynamics of your relationship, but if you're going to keep digging, you'd better prepare yourself for the answers you might get. Again, I'm struggling with some similar questions, but this thread may be motivating me to leave well enough alone.


Well... we strongly disagree. Whatever she did prior to marriage is not just her business, if it was a priority (actually on both our parts) to understand each other's past, and where they were coming from. It was especially important for me, because I was becoming interested in this young woman who was far more religious, had far stricter boundaries, than I had. How would that impact our relationship? And here I was, coming in with a different attitude about sex, having had a two year relationship with a girlfriend of which the last six months had been fully sexual. I was really concerned about how she'd feel about that, where we'd clash, etc. BUT- everything she told me was a false narrative. Not her core religious beliefs, but what she'd done with guys. I had *no idea* of the conflict she had internally, because she outright lied about many question, and left other things unsaid. 

I'm not THAT stupid. You start picking up on things, but any questions met with nastiness about why I'd think she wasn't telling the truth, that she was being as open about things as I was. At the same time, we had this really strong connection and I'd fallen for her completely. I still have. 

"Did she trust me not to invade her privacy?" No question she didn't expect her diary to be read. Why she'd leave them out in the open is an interesting question. But she's also come to realize that, had they not been read, we quite likely would have not been a couple much longer. Things couldn't continue as they were. And she was completely unwilling to explore the reason for the dark cloud that has hung around her regarding depression and guilt. 



SadSamIAm said:


> I don't understand the 'trauma' that your wife experienced in her early relationships. She wasn't abused. She was HD and fooled around with a few guys. She enjoyed fooling around and one guy was really pushing for intercourse, but it didn't happen.
> 
> I am guessing this is the same thing that the vast majority of girls experienced.
> 
> I was kind of a ladies man when I was younger. I fooled around with a number of girls. Some were religious and didn't want to have intercourse. Some were not experienced at all. The common thing was that they were all horny. They sought me out because I was 'experienced'. They pushed the envelope. I remember making out with a girl that was very religious, petting her breasts through her cloths. The next day she showed up and placed my hands on her breasts. She was extremely nervous, but very turned on. She took off her own shirt and bra and was begging me to touch her.
> 
> I sincerely hope this girl isn't experiencing trauma now because she acted on her impulses. She was young and horny and wanted to experience the feelings.
> 
> Your wife seems to be able to experience pleasure. She likes oral. She doesn't get much from PIV. I think that is also pretty typical.
> 
> I think you should have sex with your wife less often. I think you should make sure that you pleasure her the way she feels pleasure. I know what you mean, when you say turning her on is what makes you tick. I feel the same way. So make her feel good, understanding that is how she feels pleasure. Don't pressure her for intercourse. Don't pressure her to feel something from PIV when she doesn't feel it. Realize that oral and foreplay is for her and intercourse is for you.
> 
> My wife and I are a few years younger than you (in our mid 50s). We have started using a vibrator during PIV. It gives her more pleasure during the act. I realize that she is getting off from the vibrator and not just from me. I am fine with that. Let her be herself.


So she was young and horny and wanted to experience the feelings. Yes. She was exploring sexuality and boundaries. Yes. That didn't give her license to expect a do-over when I came along and not tell me that's what she was doing. When she says she married me because I ticked off all the boxes on her checklist, she didn't tell me that passion was not on that checklist. She knew it was on mine. 

The counselor is all over the idea that she's suffering from childhood trauma of some sort, and keeps asking her questions about things that happened when she was younger. The MC I'm pretty sure thinks there's an untold story she's hiding, and you could watch her tip-toe around whether that untold story could have involved me. Think that's one of the reasons for the one-on-one sessions between my wife and her. The timeline supports something that happened before me though. The MC will be reading her diary (I had nothing to do with that decision) in some more one-on-one sessions with my wife. 

Regarding oral vs PIV, I've encouraged her to get a vibrator and play with it, on her own. Find out what it takes to get her going and incorporate that during sex. The biggest turn-on in the world, for me, would be seeing my wife turned on. If it takes something mechanical, no issue, I just want to be part of it at some point. I want that pleasure to be something she can associate with intimacy with her husband. She's beginning to come around on this. The MC is certainly providing a lot of encouragement for her to do so (she's a very cute, non-threatening 69 year old woman who might have been a former hippie.... not my wife... the MC!). 



Livvie said:


> The problem as I see it is that OPs wife isn't really interested in him sexually, and isn't passionate about the relationship. OP seems to be trying to get his wife to dig into her past trying to somehow "solve" or change this fact. I don't think anything will change this, there is no revelation that is going to change the way she feels about him.


Well.... yes to the first part. I disagree with the conclusion though. She has been unable to deal with her guilt and depression on her own. For ages all her therapists or shrinks have done is prescribe pills and never explore why she's depressed. I think, frankly, this is the only avenue left. The diary created a crisis that finally forced things to a conscious level that should have been dealt with ages and ages and ages ago. Not just by her therapists and doctors, but by me too. I made the mistake of assuming that the right thing to do, when she didn't want to talk about things, was to seek professional help, that they'd do something more than just hand out pills and tell her big deal, she's depressed, most people are. I let our relationship, I let her, kind of rot on the vine.

How could I have been so stupid, so many years ago, to think things would get better once we were married? My thinking was that her 180% U-Turn on ANYTHING passionate, once we had sex, was because she felt bad about having sex before we were married, and once married, things would be better.


----------



## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> Wow, a real-life TAM 180 on me!


On the contrary... we are talking to you! :laugh:



Casual Observer said:


> A year ago this summer, LONG before reading the diary entries, I was looking to walk away. [....] She had no interest in counseling at that time. She didn't think she had an issue. It was all mine. There was zero spiritual connection between us w/regards intimacy of any sort. She saw everything as a physical act and could not connect the dots to make it work.


Pretty much the same story, only that our frequency was 2x/month.... and later I found out it was all a charade... maybe I'm just secretly jealous that your wife is responding to your invitations and she is doing something about it. But it feels to me she's been forced to do it, against her will, and this might have consequence long term. I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## Casual Observer

In Absentia said:


> On the contrary... we are talking to you! :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty much the same story, only that our frequency was 2x/month.... and later I found out it was all a charade... maybe I'm just secretly jealous that your wife is responding to your invitations and she is doing something about it. But it feels to me she's been forced to do it, against her will, and this might have consequence long term. I hope I'm wrong.


Yes, I have "forced" her to make a choice, and she would have rather not had to. Since she didn't want to make the choice, that makes it against her will. So, guilty as charged. I forced a decision to remain married or not, and if that didn't have long-term consequences, what would the point have been? I *hope* it has long-term consequences. And obviously, be careful what you wish for. Unintended consequences.

Twice a month might be close to how things were at the start (beginning of the marriage, 40 years ago). My mistake, in requiring that to change, was that it was, back then, a requirement, not a choice. She didn't think it possible, I didn't think it possible, that lack of passion (as defined by me) could lead to anything more than a frustrated husband, and well, who cares, because he's not appreciative enough of how much he's loved because she does this and she does that.

You cannot force someone to be passionate. You cannot force someone to enjoy sex. You can make it clear that, to the extent such things are a result of priorities, that those priorities have consequences. That perhaps they have taken things for granted that have to be reckoned with. In our case, it could be easier than most, because there might be a reason. There might be an explanation. And if she can come to terms with what happened, why she turned off that fateful night almost two years before we married (or was it three? which would really make me look stupid!), then therapy might help her let go of her past guilt and shame (her words, not mine) and allow her to enjoy passion again.

Something the therapist told her a few weeks ago was that she had to relax and allow herself to enjoy sex. She had to give herself permission to enjoy it. And last night she told me, she did that, for the first time, and it worked. It wasn't piv, it was "just" oral, but she was really surprised that her mind had that much control over her body. Her therapist has told her that she's spent decades not enjoying intimacy with her husband not because it's unpleasant, but because she won't allow herself to. So yes, I think we're getting somewhere.

Please, and I mean literally, pray for us, anyone reading this, that I don't become one of many TAM folk who disappear for a few years and come back to say well, things didn't work out, we split up, she's pretty miserable, I'm trying, it's interesting but I really miss my ex. I know that for some people it works out great, but I don't want to be part of that group. But I want things to work out for my wife and I. I'm simply no longer willing to be complacent.


----------



## Tilted 1

Displaced anger, is a start l guess. So if you got a handle on the general focus of it. Apply that focus into the advice that is given to you. 

It was just odd that, maybe what she drives is somewhat supposed to impress who? 

It's just goes to show you, every word you write is read. And taken fully.


----------



## Casual Observer

Tilted 1 said:


> Displaced anger, is a start l guess. So if you got a handle on the general focus of it. Apply that focus into the advice that is given to you.
> 
> It was just odd that, maybe what she drives is somewhat supposed to impress who?
> 
> It's just goes to show you, every word you write is read. And taken fully.


Yeah, it was just an off-hand remark you'd say to a friend who already knows about it maybe? One can forget that TAM is not that place because, while we develop trust and dis-trust as we might in the real physical world, we're anonymous and not "friends" in the typical manner. We (or at least I) say things that might sound like they have more meaning than they do. I'll have to go back and see what I wrote about the "Tesla" but just so you know, I don't own a car, never really have had my own car, but my wife always has. It's always been my thing to have to get a car for my wife (and I hate buying cars), and I gave a part of the long story about the Chevy Volt that got repossessed for reasons having nothing to do with finances, but I never provided a back story here for it. But all my "friends" know all about it, right? 

It's a Model 3 and it is, in fact, an extremely nice car. She loves it. The reason we had our sight set on it is for the auto-driving feature that may become available some day (what Musk calls the driverless-taxi mode). Why? Because our son has epilepsy and can't drive. This might offer an option for him to get around at some point. So now you have more backstory. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify things.


----------



## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> Please, and I mean literally, pray for us, anyone reading this, that I don't become one of many TAM folk who disappear for a few years and come back to say well, things didn't work out, we split up, she's pretty miserable, I'm trying, it's interesting but I really miss my ex. I know that for some people it works out great, but I don't want to be part of that group. But I want things to work out for my wife and I. I'm simply no longer willing to be complacent.


I've been here for a while now, and successful stories are rare, but they do happen... it seems things are going well right now. But you are uncovering a can of worms... I'm not going to pray for you because I'm not religious, but I wish you good luck!


----------



## Affaircare

@Casual Observer, 

If I may, I'd like to throw in my 2 cents on some of these latest developments. 

I hear that other posters are concerned that you've opened a can of worms or that you've "forced" her to look at something within herself that she doesn't want to look at...and that your actions will harm your marriage rather than help it. It sounds to me as though those folks care about you and MrsCO, and yet I think looking at the big picture I disagree with them. 

From my own experience, I do know that when someone is traumatized (think rape or sexual abuse), there are many ways that their brain can help them cope with the horror of it. Some people turn to alcohol, drugs, or promiscuity to try to numb themselves from feeling it. Some completely block it out and "stuff it." Some emotionally numb themselves and cut themselves off from others...even others who love them. Some go to even more extreme mental health issues such as dissociation or multiple personalities (if there's longer-term, ongoing abuse). But whatever way the brain chooses to help cope with the trauma, that does not make the feelings go away or in any way ADDRESS the trauma! It just delays it--and honestly, many folks delay addressing it for the rest of their lives. Yeah, they may live a very messed up life in their attempt to avoid the trauma, but facing the trauma is more scary to them than messing up their life. 

In my educated guess, I do believe MrsCO was traumatized in her past. Nope, I don't for one second think that her decades of avoiding "pleasure" had anything to do with the fact that the first time you two had sex, it wasn't all that fantastic. Let's be honest--I don't think ANY of us had a fantastic first time...because we didn't know any better! We all thought "Huh...that's what all this was about? Well that's insane! It's wasn't all that big a deal!" Right? LOL  So we learned and got better at it--both knowing ourselves and knowing our partner. Thus, if I were in your shoes, I would not take it quite so seriously that your very first time together wasn't the moon and stars. I think that may be YOU @Casual Observer) looking for a reason and accepting responsibility that isn't yours to carry. 

What I DO suspect happened was that she was raised strictly religious, and somewhere along the line, she either had outright intercourse voluntarily and felt REALLY guilty about enjoying it...OR (most likely) she was a virgin and one of the "boyfriends" forced himself on her and she was so shocked that she stuffed it, refused to remember it, and began to act wilder than she really felt was virtuous...which she felt guilty over and semi-stuffed that as well. Then along came you--a guy who actually cared for her and was willing to let her be virtuous--and she loved that and married you, but the trauma and guilt and all that emotional numbing was already in place. 

That has stayed in place all these years, because people will do their best to avoid it as long as possible. Some people NEVER face it, because the pain of facing it is worse than the pain of whatever "bad thing" is happening in the family/marriage/relationship. By bringing this to a head, you essentially created a possibility that the pain of losing the marriage was worse than the pain of possibly facing what happened. 

And YEP, as she begins to face whatever it was...and as she begins to remember and acknowledge it...she is going to be miserable. Remember how I told you that there is going to be a time when one or both of you says: "Hey I thought counseling was supposed to make us feel better! I feel 1000 times WORSE! I want to quit!"? That's only because for decades whatever this is has been avoided, and now we are bringing the oozing, puss-filled infection to the surface, and it's ugly! Cleaning up with infection HURTS!! It's HARD!! But if you don't clean it, eventually the infection will kill you or the marriage. If you DO clean it, and endure the pain and difficulty of digging into an infected area to remove the infection, then you have a chance of returning to health and recovering. 

So yeah--on the occasion right now she is going to be miserable. She will be sad and hurt as she remembers. She will be afraid and in some ways relive it. And for you it's going to be hard to see her like that AND to make sure she keeps personal responsibility for her things and you only carry the responsibilities that are yours to carry. Don't take the "blame" for being emotionally numb for all these decades because the first time you had sex it wasn't perfect fireworks. Nope. For decades she turned her mind, emotions, and body "OFF" and that was her choice. Does it help understand some? Yes sir, it does. Does it create a space of safety for her? Maybe, yes. Is she an emotionally and physically numb person because of something you did (or didn't) do? NO! 

I do pray for you and MrsCO, and I pray that both of you have the courage to keep going. I don't think she has quite "remembered" what truly traumatized her, but I do think she's getting close, and that likely scares her.


----------



## Casual Observer

Affaircare said:


> @Casual Observer,
> 
> ...
> 
> What I DO suspect happened was that she was raised strictly religious, and somewhere along the line, she either had outright intercourse voluntarily and felt REALLY guilty about enjoying it...OR (most likely) she was a virgin and one of the "boyfriends" forced himself on her and she was so shocked that she stuffed it, refused to remember it, and began to act wilder than she really felt was virtuous...which she felt guilty over and semi-stuffed that as well. Then along came you--a guy who actually cared for her and was willing to let her be virtuous--and she loved that and married you, but the trauma and guilt and all that emotional numbing was already in place.
> ...
> 
> So yeah--on the occasion right now she is going to be miserable. She will be sad and hurt as she remembers. She will be afraid and in some ways relive it. And for you it's going to be hard to see her like that AND to make sure she keeps personal responsibility for her things and you only carry the responsibilities that are yours to carry. Don't take the "blame" for being emotionally numb for all these decades because the first time you had sex it wasn't perfect fireworks. Nope. For decades she turned her mind, emotions, and body "OFF" and that was her choice. Does it help understand some? Yes sir, it does. Does it create a space of safety for her? Maybe, yes. Is she an emotionally and physically numb person because of something you did (or didn't) do? NO!
> 
> I do pray for you and MrsCO, and I pray that both of you have the courage to keep going. I don't think she has quite "remembered" what truly traumatized her, but I do think she's getting close, and that likely scares her.


We're on the same page here. What's tough for people to comprehend is that, if indeed there was this trauma that messed her up, that gives me hope. Hope that addressing it can make things better. Without something to work on, without a reason, then there is virtually no hope that anything will change.

A clarification though. I don't suggest that "bad first time sex" with my wife is my fault and even to blame for everything. What I've been saying is that, had I known what I was getting into, things would have been handled very differently. More appropriately for someone "damaged" by a previous encounter. So I don't blame myself for a bad first-time sexual experience because I didn't know what I was dealing with, and that was not my fault. That's on her.

But I want this marriage to work. I want to take care of this woman till the day one of us leaves the earth. And I want her to feel like a whole person and understand that her past is a real thing, that without that past we wouldn't have been brought together, that the future involved putting things together that have been broken for many decades. It's not about shame. It's about acceptance and understanding that she could tell me she'd slept with 3 guys and I'd be here for her and not think any less of her, nor would I have then. It's her lack of trust in me (then and now) that has hurt our marriage, and a general unwillingness to deal with anything unpleasant. Ironic that the worse the situation, the more the situation begs to be dealt with, the more she wants to put it in a box and forget about it.


----------



## Affaircare

Casual Observer said:


> We're on the same page here. What's tough for people to comprehend is that, if indeed there was this trauma that messed her up, that gives me hope. Hope that addressing it can make things better. Without something to work on, without a reason, then there is virtually no hope that anything will change.


And I will note, @Casual Observer, that there have been marriages of 20-30-40 years where there is a trauma like this, and the marriage is brought to crisis (this needs to be addressed or the marriage is over), and the person who was traumatized chooses to end the marriage rather than face what happened. I have seen that TIME AND AGAIN. Partner A says "This marriage is a 2 and I need us to try for 3 or 4" and Partner B says "Nope, I'm not willing to do that"...and divorces rather than changing. 

So count it all blessing that she's willing AT ALL to even do this. It is actually quite an amazing gift, and frankly, quite a compliment that even though she's afraid, some part of her knows you truly care about her. 



> A clarification though. I don't suggest that "bad first time sex" with my wife is my fault and even to blame for everything. What I've been saying is that, had I known what I was getting into, things would have been handled very differently. More appropriately for someone "damaged" by a previous encounter. So I don't blame myself for a bad first-time sexual experience because I didn't know what I was dealing with, and that was not my fault. That's on her.


Yeah, I get what you're saying. Had you known "back then" that she had slept with 3 guys and 1 of the 3 had been a forceful, traumatic situation, you might have gone slower, been more gentle, etc. I get that. My guess is that you're a fairly aware and thoughtful guy. But what I'm saying is that let's say time #1 was just something that shook her up or wasn't her cuppa tea or whatever it was...but for decades she made the choice to ignore it, avoid it, suppress it, smother it and conceal it rather than just being transparent, and each time for all those decades, it was a deliberate choice. Now, before it sounds like blaming the victim, what I mean is that at some point the victim becomes an adult AND becomes personally responsible. Yeah, it absolutely helps to understand why they made the choices they made--but at some point, the adult is not longer the poor little victim and instead is personally responsible to say "I actually have a problem with this, and I can't deal with it on my own. I need to get some help." So this isn't a "blame" thing. It's more like recognizing personal responsibility and showing her that you do believe she's capable of handling her own self. 



> But I want this marriage to work. I want to take care of this woman till the day one of us leaves the earth. And I want her to feel like a whole person and understand that her past is a real thing, that without that past we wouldn't have been brought together, that the future involved putting things together that have been broken for many decades. It's not about shame. It's about acceptance and understanding that she could tell me she'd slept with 3 guys and I'd be here for her and not think any less of her, nor would I have then. It's her lack of trust in me (then and now) that has hurt our marriage, and a general unwillingness to deal with anything unpleasant. *Ironic that the worse the situation, the more the situation begs to be dealt with, the more she wants to put it in a box and forget about it.*


See the underlined part above? Unwillingness to deal with anything unpleasant?  That is part of maturity, I think, and oftentimes, maturing stops when there has been a trauma. Let's say her trauma was at age 19...her "maturing" may have sort of stopped at about that age, and let's admit it, 19yo's act a bit entitled, want to be adults without the responsibility, and try to blame unpleasantness on anyone else. LOL Part of growing up will be learning to just accept with the fact that life is not fair and that unpleasantness comes and goes. 

See the bolded part above? That is SO TYPICAL of abuse victim coping! What's funny is that the abuse victim truly doesn't realize that the more they put it in the box and try to lock it away, the more it squirts out sideways or leaks out in places they aren't aware of! The harder they try to avoid, the more it squirts out! So again, this kind of behavior tends to me to point toward a much deeper, more serious trauma than just making out with a guy and coming very close to intercourse. I would have to guess she maybe got drunk and was raped...felt she deserved it and felt ashamed...and then squashed it down to forget about it and went numb to never, ever feel that violated again.


----------



## Casual Observer

Affaircare said:


> And I will note, @Casual Observer, that there have been marriages of 20-30-40 years where there is a trauma like this, and the marriage is brought to crisis (this needs to be addressed or the marriage is over), and the person who was traumatized chooses to end the marriage rather than face what happened. I have seen that TIME AND AGAIN. Partner A says "This marriage is a 2 and I need us to try for 3 or 4" and Partner B says "Nope, I'm not willing to do that"...and divorces rather than changing.
> 
> So count it all blessing that she's willing AT ALL to even do this. It is actually quite an amazing gift, and frankly, quite a compliment that even though she's afraid, some part of her knows you truly care about her.


And that's the road she was heading down, largely without understanding the consequences. Or rather, she seemed to be heading down the road, towards breaking up, without considering there could be an alternative, or I should say, that the alternative was preferable. Coming clean and dealing with the trauma, or divorce. To a "reasonable" person, how is divorce even an option??? Toss away 40 years to keep from dealing with something dark in your past? That's just nuts. And I think the fact that it's perceived as nuts, just not realistic, makes it appear, to the person on the other side, that there must be something else going on. That maybe it's all me. Or even largely me. And of course at some level it is me, because I failed to deal with this earlier, when the consequences would have been much less severe. For me. For her? I think most other choices (marrying someone other than me) would have ended up in divorce long ago. Sorry. I'm rambling here.



> Yeah, I get what you're saying. Had you known "back then" that she had slept with 3 guys and 1 of the 3 had been a forceful, traumatic situation, you might have gone slower, been more gentle, etc. I get that. My guess is that you're a fairly aware and thoughtful guy. But what I'm saying is that let's say time #1 was just something that shook her up or wasn't her cuppa tea or whatever it was...but for decades she made the choice to ignore it, avoid it, suppress it, smother it and conceal it rather than just being transparent, and each time for all those decades, it was a deliberate choice. Now, before it sounds like blaming the victim, what I mean is that at some point the victim becomes an adult AND becomes personally responsible. Yeah, it absolutely helps to understand why they made the choices they made--but at some point, the adult is not longer the poor little victim and instead is personally responsible to say "I actually have a problem with this, and I can't deal with it on my own. I need to get some help." So this isn't a "blame" thing. It's more like recognizing personal responsibility and showing her that you do believe she's capable of handling her own self.


You do realize that I can't/don't want to envision my wife the way she thinks of her past. She's come right out and said, in MC, that she sees herself as a "sl*t" back then. In my worst scenario my wife was never a "sl*t." She had boundary issues, to be sure. She got in over her head. She enjoyed the excitement of having multiple guys seeing her at the same time. She was totally fixated on finding some "right" guy that she would fall madly in love with and escape from her problems. She used sexuality to attract and keep guys around. She had a system in place, rules... the guy had to attend to her (physically) before she would attend to him. She loved the feeling of control.

And then, when I came along, she got the escape, the got the respect for what she is and not what she was willing to do. She got a friend first, lover second. She got her chance for a do-over. And again, I'm fine with being that guy!!! Her past was not a Scarlet Letter to me, even her past that I suspected. But her undeclared baggage became a major issue, then, as now. 

She still does not believe it is fair to have to declare that baggage. It does not help that specifics were discovered through a breech of trust on my part. So what happens is, she'll make progress, she'll understand the issues caused by the trauma in her past, and then she'll switch away from that mode and back into "This didn't have to happen" mode. 




> See the underlined part above? Unwillingness to deal with anything unpleasant? That is part of maturity, I think, and oftentimes, maturing stops when there has been a trauma. Let's say her trauma was at age 19...her "maturing" may have sort of stopped at about that age, and let's admit it, 19yo's act a bit entitled, want to be adults without the responsibility, and try to blame unpleasantness on anyone else. LOL Part of growing up will be learning to just accept with the fact that life is not fair and that unpleasantness comes and goes.
> 
> See the bolded part above? That is SO TYPICAL of abuse victim coping! What's funny is that the abuse victim truly doesn't realize that the more they put it in the box and try to lock it away, the more it squirts out sideways or leaks out in places they aren't aware of! The harder they try to avoid, the more it squirts out! So again, this kind of behavior tends to me to point toward a much deeper, more serious trauma than just making out with a guy and coming very close to intercourse. I would have to guess she maybe got drunk and was raped...felt she deserved it and felt ashamed...and then squashed it down to forget about it and went numb to never, ever feel that violated again.


Somewhat in support of this is the fact that, far as I knew, she'd never touched an alcoholic drink. Then I read where drinking beer had become a regular thing for her. Just one though. Except that, with this one guy, she talks about allowing herself to exceed her limit.

But what difference does any of this make? If our MC (who's also playing the role of her therapist) doesn't pursue this, it really doesn't matter. I can't do this on my own. And it's not like I can cut & paste from TAM and show it to the MC and say look, a TAM expert has seen this before and suggests this!

So.. where do I go from here?:|


----------



## sokillme

If I am understanding this right, she married you because you ticked off all the boxes but she hide true self to make it appear it would tick off all your boxes? Or she just doesn't really care about your boxes?

I stick with my original two points on this thread.

She has never loved you enough to care about any of this. You are too nice and she is not nice at all.


----------



## Casual Observer

sokillme said:


> If I am understanding this right, she married you because you ticked off all the boxes but she hide true self to make it appear it would tick off all your boxes? Or she just doesn't really care about your boxes?
> 
> I stick with my original two points on this thread.
> 
> She has never loved you enough to care about any of this. You are too nice and she is not nice at all.


"Tough crowd" is an understatement.

I've put up with things for 40 years that I shouldn't have put up with. 42 actually. And now that I may have a chance at seeing things improve, I should give up?

I didn't have explicit checkboxes to tick; she did. I fell in love with her. I saw her as someone I could spend the rest of my life with. I had, to some extent, a fatalistic approach about things. I wasn't looking for perfection. I was looking for someone with a sense of humor, someone who could put up with my addiction to cycling, someone who respected hard work putting a business together. And someone who had that twinkle in her eye for me. On that last part, I kinda failed. I misread things; I misread desperation to exit a past scenario as strong affection towards me.

I think, over the past 40 years, and especially the last 10, I have proven myself a great choice for her. I wouldn't normally toot my horn that way, but I think I've really come around. And I have to think she's capable of recognizing that, if she were in the market all over again, I would be high on the list. For many of the same qualities as previously... absolute truthfulness/faithfulness, willingness to help her with issues, and not being judgmental about her mistreatment of her body (she'd be a whole lot healthier if she kept her weight down). To some extent I've enabled bad behavior. But I don't think that's something she'd see as a negative. 

I think there's an opportunity to fix things and figuratively and almost literally get re-married. Going eyes-wide-open with discussions of boundaries and honesty and such.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Long term consequences of lies/omissions &amp; RJ*

CO, while I agree that you should see this through, and the fact that she is going through this bodes well for the marriage, SKM isn't wrong. 

He is dead right in understanding how you got here. 

I think you need to keep his analysis in the back of your head as you move forward, not to have it alter your trajectory as much as to make sure you never allow the marriage to be that again...even if it means ultimately ending it. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Casual Observer

It’s funny how this “getting older” thing pulls you in two different directions. On the one hand, there is a responsibility to take care of that woman you vowed to honor and protect. And as you get older, you have more memories (which might actually be momentum you feel) to protect, and the “in sickness” part gains relevancy too. 

On the other, your remaining years are limited, you might feel like you’ve done what you can do, you deserve a final shot at what’s been missing. 

Both are very powerful forces for me. It’s my choice to try and reconcile those choices by making things work out with my wife, risking it all in the hope of saving our marriage. 

In the process of explaining it all, I think it normal that we spend too much time focusing on the bad, on what got us here, and may overlook the potential still buried in the marriage. I don’t think it’s wrong to go to heroic measures to try and save what seemed like a good idea, a place you found love and solace, so many years ago. 

I am a hopeless romanticist but unfortunately not immune to logic. Thus the torment. @Affaircare you have provided the encouragement that allows me to believe this is a correct and noble path. Thank you, and the many others who have provided feedback on my journey.


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## Adelais

@Casual Observer, I haven't contributed to your thread, but I want to say that I wholeheartedly support you in your decision to stick with the marriage in spite of the revelations your wife has shared. Throwing away 42 good years for past problems is a decision not to be taken lightly. Even if you did find someone else to love, you might have 20 good years together? I'd rather take the chance to have 62 years with the same person, with the last 20 years being the best, since she is finally working on herself.


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## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> Both are very powerful forces for me. It’s my choice to try and reconcile those choices by making things work out with my wife, *risking it all* in the hope of saving our marriage.


So, does this mean that you are prepared to leave her if things don't get "better"? You have to remember that her trauma takes precedence on you. She is not doing it on purpose. You are n.2 in this marriage, but not because she doesn't love you. Her "capacity" is full and there isn't enough room for you, or enough room to store all the love you need/want from her.


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## Casual Observer

Adelais said:


> @Casual Observer, I haven't contributed to your thread, but I want to say that I wholeheartedly support you in your decision to stick with the marriage in spite of the revelations your wife has shared. Throwing away 42 good years for past problems is a decision not to be taken lightly. Even if you did find someone else to love, you might have 20 good years together? I'd rather take the chance to have 62 years with the same person, with the last 20 years being the best, since she is finally working on herself.


Thank you. Just to be clear though, there are no revelations that my wife has voluntarily shared. Her choice would be to take any mistakes or things she wasn't truthful about to her grave. She is still extremely resistive to visiting any trauma from her past, and only now is beginning to understand that not telling the truth about the past created serious damage in her view of sex. 

She still wants it both ways, too. She knows that something in her past was so extraordinarily painful for her, regarding guys, that she couldn't tell me back then, and doesn't remember it now. While at the same time she says that whatever it was, it wasn't that big a deal, so there's no need to make a big thing out of it. Huh? These aren't past problems. They're present problems (complete lack of interest in PIV sex) with roots in the past. We'll see how she does after her individual session on Monday.

It's funny how something like that can cause you to see something that's been right in front of you for years, and you never noticed. Something completely shocking. In this case, the fact that she had a very high libido/desire/lust, in our relationship, until the moment we first had sex. Then everything disappeared. Not just sex, but all the other stuff we enjoyed so much previously (fooling around). That was two years before we married. Why didn't I connect any dots back then? Why wasn't that a gigantic red flag that called into question the idea of marrying her?


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## Casual Observer

In Absentia said:


> So, does this mean that you are prepared to leave her if things don't get "better"? You have to remember that her trauma takes precedence on you. She is not doing it on purpose. You are n.2 in this marriage, but not because she doesn't love you. Her "capacity" is full and there isn't enough room for you, or enough room to store all the love you need/want from her.


I don't understand what you mean, when you say her trauma takes precedence on me. Are you suggesting that it's OK, if it's her choice, to not deal with her trauma? I don't think that's an equitable view of being married. I have a responsibility to her, and she has a responsibility to me. And there's also a shared responsibility to the marriage itself. If she prioritizes her privacy, and the damage done by not trying to figure out why she has such issues with intimacy, over our marriage... then I'd suggest the marriage is over, and likely has been over for ages, I was just too preoccupied or dense to recognize and deal with it.

If she's willing to follow through with the counseling and work on things, to not let pride & privacy get in the way, she'll have save the marriage, even if dealing with the trauma does not bring back my wife's desire for me. I can deal with that, if she sees the marriage and me as being important enough. Otherwise? How can there even be an acceptable otherwise?


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## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> Otherwise? How can there even be an acceptable otherwise?


You see, your "otherwise" has been accepted by you for several years... maybe because you were a bit "dense", as you say... :laugh: I'm not saying she's been right to do what she's been doing all these years, what I'm saying is that she doesn't do it on purpose, even if she seems ok and dealing with it fine on the surface. The trauma is "occupying" her completely, so you are n. 2 and you've been n. 2 to her trauma all your married life. You are now trying to change all this and it will require a huge effort on her behalf. I do get it, though, because I am in a similar situation and I am separating because my wife is refusing therapy. So, I am several steps ahead. We've also been in the situation where my wife agreed to therapy only to withdraw claiming "it was a waste of time". I'm not saying your wife is the same, but I do understand why my wife is not prepared to face her ghosts, to the point she is choosing divorce over the trauma of facing her childhood and her issues. I hope your wife sticks with it (therapy) and doesn't grow resentful of you. My wife thinks I'm abandoning her in a very difficult moment.


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## Thor

@ In Absentia, ditto to all you said.


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## Adelais

Casual Observer said:


> It's funny how something like that can cause you to see something that's been right in front of you for years, and you never noticed. Something completely shocking. In this case, the fact that she had a very high libido/desire/lust, in our relationship, until the moment we first had sex. Then everything disappeared. Not just sex, but all the other stuff we enjoyed so much previously (fooling around). That was two years before we married. Why didn't I connect any dots back then? Why wasn't that a gigantic red flag that called into question the idea of marrying her?


I understand exactly what you are saying. My husband also changed the day we got married because of unhealthy ideas he got while growing up. I've suffered my entire marriage, knowing what was wrong, but not being able to say, "Ha! There it is!" He would deny that his actions had anything to do with how he grew up, or that he was taking out on me frustrations he had against his mother. Now, after 29 years, when I am done, he is "realizing" that he had some thinking patterns and behaviors in our marriage that had nothing to do with me, but were based on his past.

Have you fought with your wife a lot during your marriage, or was it relatively nice except for the sex? You do realize that sex will become less important to you the older you get. Why throw away your marriage now, when you are going to want sex less anyway?


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## Casual Observer

Adelais said:


> I understand exactly what you are saying. My husband also changed the day we got married because of unhealthy ideas he got while growing up. I've suffered my entire marriage, knowing what was wrong, but not being able to say, "Ha! There it is!" He would deny that his actions had anything to do with how he grew up, or that he was taking out on me frustrations he had against his mother. Now, after 29 years, when I am done, he is "realizing" that he had some thinking patterns and behaviors in our marriage that had nothing to do with me, but were based on his past.
> 
> Have you fought with your wife a lot during your marriage, or was it relatively nice except for the sex? You do realize that sex will become less important to you the older you get. Why throw away your marriage now, when you are going to want sex less anyway?


We fight very little, but there is continuing stress over not enough money (which is kind of absurd; she has lived a very good life, traveling all over the world). She has a very high built-in level of animosity towards anything not done her way though. But overall I'd say things have been relatively nice except for sex, and the sex has created tension that spills over into other areas.

Sorry to hear how things went down (or don't go "down"?) with your husband. The difference for us is that my wife's "equipment" works exceptionally well and a couple days ago she had a 5 minute long orgasm through oral. Leaving me, frankly, really jealous!!!  She loves to play the "cancer card" and claim she has no feeling down there, but there's plenty of proof otherwise, and the problems for her, with sex, are upstairs. When she can release herself, convince herself it's OK to let go and allow herself an oral orgasm, she does.


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## Casual Observer

@Laurentium If I can drag you into this thread, instead of hijacking the "rape" thread... you had responded to my post about my wife telling me she felt like she had been raped during those times during our marriage when she had sex with me to help me get to sleep (because I was frustrated with the very low frequency of sex at the time, her ideal would have been zero and actual between 2-6 times per month). Your response was-

_I am a marriage counselor - this kind of thing is part of what I do for a living.
It doesn't seem to help for a counselor (or TAM commenter) to tell someone what they "must" do. If the story makes me angry, I have to not try to infect the victim with my anger.

Everyone's story that they tell, is from their point of view. Memory is not like a video recording.

The victim often has a poor understanding of the seriousness of what is happening, but often has a good understanding of what steps would be safe or unsafe for them to take. I'm not going to say "you need to say xxx to him", I'm going to ask "if you said xxx to him, what do you think might happen?"
_
My question is, should there be essentially a statute of limitations, a length of time after which something from way back in the past is no longer allowed to be relevant? So a trauma 42 years ago is deemed either irrelevant, or past possibility of usefulness for recovery... and working with it becomes a form of badgering with no hopeful outcome?

I do like your recommendation of suggesting what consequences would someone think would follow an action. So you could play through a number of scenarios and get a feel for a direction that might prove hopeful?

Thanks-


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## Casual Observer

*My wife is not a monster/her schizoid husband*

Just wanted to point something out here, because occasionally things are said that put my wife on par with some of the nastiest of TAM villains.

My wife is not a monster. She loves me dearly. She wants to improve, she wants to change. When I list the various ways in which she's been somewhat abusive, tough to live with, lacking in passion... I would have left long ago had there not been some wonderful inner core that I can sometimes reach and embrace. I have memories of some very good times. I am not married to an evil, nasty person. Just nasty at times. She is not evil. She doesn't intentionally set out to squash my desires and dreams.

She is trying very hard. The tough part is that she will try very hard at what is easiest for her to do. She does not understand that the pathway to success might have to involve a really tough soul-searching journey. She thinks it's not fair to have to do that now, after all these years. And I do understand that logic. I understand that there's a shared responsibility here, because I didn't address these things until there was a crisis. But I won't take too much blame, because the outcome, how she viewed things, would have been even less receptive 20 years ago than today. 40 years ago, things could have been very different, had I simply decided to not marry her, had I known what she was keeping from me and how that would affect things. 

I do admit to feeling kind of schizoid. I worship her on the one hand, then have her endure the IC & MC on the other. I help her with her aches & pains, I make things as easy as possible, physically, around the house. I jump at the chance to spend time with her. I love this woman. I want things to work out. And it hurts that I can see the pain this causes her, having to deal with her past.

It is very, very confusing. And yet I am very, very hopeful. The Israel trip in December is still on, as are the plans to renew our vows in Cana, assuming we've made good progress on the passion front. 

I'm also constantly being made aware that, for people in their 60s, passion, and passionate sex, are lofty expectations typically unmet. That it's normal to be thinking about it no longer mattering. I simply will not accept that. My passion for my wife is as strong today as it was when we met. She has her hooks into me. And I believe it should be possible to finally unleash the passion in her that died that apparently-fateful night two years before we married, when we first became intimate.

So there you have it. The desperate writings of a man desperately wanting to connect, fully, with his wife. Thank you.


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## In Absentia

*Re: My wife is not a monster/her schizoid husband*



Casual Observer said:


> The desperate writings of a man desperately wanting to connect, fully, with his wife. Thank you.


If you think you are succeeding, don't listen to us... carry on. It's easy to spill negativity from the outside, especially when you've been there and you've failed.


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## Laurentium

Casual Observer said:


> My question is, should there be essentially a statute of limitations, a length of time after which something from way back in the past is no longer allowed to be relevant? So a trauma 42 years ago is deemed either irrelevant, or past possibility of usefulness for recovery... and working with it becomes a form of badgering with no hopeful outcome?
> 
> I do like your recommendation of suggesting what consequences would someone think would follow an action. So you could play through a number of scenarios and get a feel for a direction that might prove hopeful?


The part of my post you quoted was not directed at you, but at people offering advice to the poster who had been raped, whose name ended in "Mom". Sorry if that was confusing. 

As to your question above, if I understood your question correctly: no, there is no statute of limitations on trauma. A trauma 42 years ago can be very relevant. It *has to* be up to the victim as to whether they want to work on it. 

You asked a question about whether someone who was apparently "giving in" might feel coerced into sex, and my answer was, it depends on how the other person has reacted in the past to being told "no". I am hoping you have never reacted punitively to being told "no" to sex, so there would be no reason to "give in" to you.


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## Casual Observer

Laurentium said:


> The part of my post you quoted was not directed at you, but at people offering advice to the poster who had been raped, whose name ended in "Mom". Sorry if that was confusing.
> 
> As to your question above, if I understood your question correctly: no, there is no statute of limitations on trauma. A trauma 42 years ago can be very relevant. It *has to* be up to the victim as to whether they want to work on it.
> 
> You asked a question about whether someone who was apparently "giving in" might feel coerced into sex, and my answer was, it depends on how the other person has reacted in the past to being told "no". *I am hoping you have never reacted punitively to being told "no" to sex, so there would be no reason to "give in" to you.*


Once again heading into areas not black & white. If sex has been a source of frustration during a marriage, it would be difficult for many (and I'll raise my hand on this one) to keep a cheerful face at all times. My disposition is absolutely positively better when not frustrated by a lengthy time without. So is it punitive if someone is in a worse mood if he or she has gone without, than if their partner had "given in?" I'm not saying that's a good thing. I'm using "reasonable" as a suggestion that might be a typical, expected response.

There has never been a time when she's said no, and I've tried to argue that she should change her mind at that time. Never. Ever. But to suggest that there would never be an uncomfortable feeling the next day, or two, or whatever, that wouldn't have happened otherwise? That's not realistic for many of us. With that in mind, isn't it reasonable to expect that, sometimes, a partner might "give in" just to avoid that?

I do see the scenario I've painted as being really, really bad... for all concerned. It doesn't solve a problem. It creates a long-term & unhealthy way of putting up with something. That's why I truly believe it was a good thing we had a true crisis in our relationship that caused massive pain and soul-searching and led to both IC & MC with a recognition that things could not continue as they had. Because otherwise your "giving in" scenario is not far enough off the mark.


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## Laurentium

Casual Observer said:


> There has never been a time when she's said no, and I've tried to argue that she should change her mind at that time. Never. Ever. But to suggest that there would never be an uncomfortable feeling the next day, or two, or whatever, that wouldn't have happened otherwise? That's not realistic for many of us. With that in mind, isn't it reasonable to expect that, sometimes, a partner might "give in" just to avoid that?


Okay, but that seems to me very different from coercion.


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## Casual Observer

*Recap time*



Laurentium said:


> Okay, but that seems to me very different from coercion.


If your partner has a strong dislike of sex, their perspective of "giving in", "coercion" or simply turning down a "request" will be very different from others. They will be far more likely to feel manipulated, abused, or feel "raped" in a scenario the great majority of people would not. 

I believe most of the issue in these situations is because one partner, perhaps both, were holding back on who they are, what they believe, prior to committing to each other. They may have been scared to. They may have been embarrassed by their past. It may have been a deliberately strategic decision. 

I think it's OK to have notions of privacy, if you let the other person know you have them. Before entering into a long term relationship. In my case, I simply had no clue. No idea that my soon-to-be-wife (42 years ago) was keeping all sorts of things from me, things that we had specifically discussed. I had no idea what happened when, 8 months into the relationship, about two years prior to marriage, her libido & passion absolutely crashed, tanked, went to zero, the moment we had actual PIV sex. I thought it was one of those things where my good Christian girlfriend decided it would have been better to wait until marriage, and things would get better then. I got busy and distracted with all sorts of things to take my mind off it. I assumed things would get better. They never did. To the outside observer, or me looking at things totally dispassionately, I must have been the worst lover in the world, to take a 19 year old woman whose libido & passion had been absolutely raging, and put them into the tank in the period of maybe 20 minutes.

Undisclosed notions of privacy and shame led to at least three decades of passionless marriage. Her defense is that we both went into separate worlds, her raising the kids, mine the business. It became my fault that the biz took so much of my time. It came as quite the shock to her, in marriage counseling, when I pointed out that our sex life tanked the moment we had sex, not once married, not when I took the time to start the business. She was fully aware that happened, but never gave any thought to it. 

And now, 42 years later, we're getting down to the reasons why. Finally an admission of trauma, finally owning up to what she'd documented at the time and not told me about. But it's a trickle-truth thing; she wants to discuss the minimum she thinks she can get away with and not enough to lift the burden of the lies & omissions from her shoulders. And she's made sure, when the opportunity arises, to try and make me feel terrible for putting her through this.

So instead of being on a steady slightly-downward trajectory, built upon whatever minimum standard of care it takes to keep me from walking (parceling out just barely enough intimacy, always reluctantly, to let me pretend that intimacy exists), we have, since March last year, been on a wild roller coaster ride full of tears & fears and hope. An odd combination. But there was simply no hope before. The hope only came when it was clear that I had to be willing to risk everything to have things get better. Not just better, but really good. And we've had some really good moments, in between the really serious stuff that causes her to cry and think I'm a bad guy because I "made" her cry. 

All this because she completely witheld everything, including the existence itself, of the immediately-prior relationship to ours, a relationship that pushed her sexually way, way, way past the narrative she gave me, and left her feeling incredibly guilty and things she did with this guy but believes she didn't. Despite that she wrote about them. Despite that she found it necessary to omit him completely during discussions of our histories. Despite that, if she'd only done the things she claims (now) that she did, it was less than we engaged in on our first evening together, so a: what would she be feeling guilty about and b: where did she learn everything she knew that she didn't previously do?

Since March, our sex life has gone through some gyrations but things are generally much better than before, because she knows I no longer believe the "cancer card" as being relevant, since, frankly, sex has been better since than before. The cancer did bring her a bit closer to me. She understands now that intimacy is important to *our* marriage. If she wants a different standard, she may have to find it elsewhere (after divorce; infidelity of any type is unacceptable to either of us). The toughest thing for her right now has been the case from the beginning. Accountability. She can seem to agree on something, and go along with it for as much as a few weeks, after which she becomes resentful, which she keeps to herself for another couple weeks, before it finally comes out in a nasty way. Having ongoing counseling helps with the accountability though. 

And she is beginning, just barely, to accept responsibility for holding back on things that poisoned our intimacy. The triggers that destroyed her passion with me. She is beginning, just barely, to accept the idea that there isn't a statute of limitations on lies about the past, because, she's beginning, just barely, to understand how they continued to affect our relationship 42 years later. But she is not yet to the point of believing it will be better, for her, to deal with her past trauma, instead of keeping it locked away. She feels she is having to do this for me, not for us, not for her. And I'm ok with that. I won't allow my love for my wife to cause me to back down on trying to make her more whole again.

This is admittedly my own version of things. Nearly all of it is actually backed up by letters (mine) and diary entries (hers). The timeline is a bit disjointed, because her diary entries stopped about the time she met me. My letters started pretty much exactly where her diary ends. The reason for that is, well, as she'd say, I "ticked off all the boxes." I was what she was looking for, to escape her past, and restore her narrative. Her diary became a reminder of things she didn't want to think about anymore. My letters, on the other hand, documented our relationship from the very beginning, ending when we got married. Funny to think that she no longer needed to write in her diary because she'd found the guy she was looking for. While I wanted to write about what I'd found. No checkboxes for me.

Thanks for listening.


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## Casual Observer

*Last night was rough*

Got home from a short biz trip (3 days, 2 nights) and wasn't sure what I'd be coming home to, as my wife had both an individual session with our MC, and an appointment with a new psychologist.

I arrived home 11pm last night and really didn't want to get into the IC/MC stuff, but ok to talk about the psychologist, since that's not quite so bad w/regards triggering things. I'd suggested we go to breakfast together in the morning and go over stuff. Nope. For some reason she wanted to talk about things last night. Which she generally doesn't want to do, and which never works out well because nothing gets resolved before she wants to sleep.

I ended up awake most of the night, dealing with trigger events from the long long long past. Her IC/MC appointment dealt with her trauma and what she'd written in her diary. Mostly the IC/MC wanted to figure out if she'd been raped by the prior boyfriend. She's pretty much determined she hadn't been, but that's based on my wife's complete inability to recall anything from the night in question. Whatever happened was traumatic enough to really mess her up, but somehow she's convinced it didn't deal with unwanted sex or near sex. And then my wife starts rewriting recent history again, specifically where she'd come to understand how she didn't just omit things back then, but outright lied about many specific things. She was saying she only omitted things. So I had to go painfully back over the stuff she lied about. This was NOT what I wanted to do.

I needed her reassurance and love so badly, and it felt like I was getting the opposite. I pointed out that one of the reasons, perhaps the main reason, that she chose me was to rescue her from a past where she'd felt she'd lost her way (she even wrote that). But no, now she was saying she was always in control. It's like WTF I'm thinking? 

I wanted so much to be close to her, to be one with her (ok, sex, but spirtually, not f***ing). But it wasn't our night on the schedule, so I wasn't going to push or suggest or do anything at all that she might later hold against me. But I needed her so badly, to come over, tell me it was OK, tell me that she loved me, tell me let's do something you and I can share only with each other. As much as I willed for that to happen, it, of course, didn't. 

So yeah, really rough night. She still thinks her past can and should be forgotten about, and she comes around when I explain how it continued to affect us for decades. And she gets it. But it's rinse & repeat; in a few days it all starts all over again. I'll be talking about this at our next combined MC session. 

In another thread I spoke of the changes in how "consent" is views now & 40+ years ago. She essentially gave consent to the guy when she allowed him to put on a condom. Back then, many guys saw a subsequent "no" as something that could be overcome if you kept at it. If she said "no" 20 times, maybe you'd have her worn down to a passive "ok" the 21st. That wouldn't fly today. I think the guilt she feels is totally inappropriate.

The good news is that her new psychologist is actually giving her tasks to do to work on her negativity and depression. Nobody has done that for her previously. It's all been about pushing pills. I'm also wondering if the trauma issue should be mentioned to her psychologist, who is totally unaware? Is it possible that trauma from the way-back days could lead to depression later? 

As always, thanks for being there. What a ride.


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## Affaircare

@Casual Observer, 

I'm at work and SUPER busy, but one thought stood out to me that I wanted to share. 

By your own admission, whatever it was that happened, happened 40+ years ago. That means she has had 40+ years of practicing AVOIDING IT. She has had four decades of actively denying that it happened to her own self and mentally putting it in a jar, in a chest locked with chains, in a vault, underground, behind hundreds of locks. She has had four decades of convincing herself that she didn't lie...she omitted (and by the way, to my mind, a purposeful omission for the sake of hiding is a lie). She has had four decades of convincing herself that "whatever it was" didn't really happen, it wasn't all that bad, she was in control, and it wasn't that big a deal (and all four decades she has known on some level that it DID happen, it WAS bad, she was out of control and probably over-powered, and it WAS a HUGE deal). 

To me, it seems obvious and natural that she would 
a) Return to her habit that she has been using for the past 40 years "My past is in the past, just forget it. Oh wait--I get it. It does affect the present. Yeah. But it's was just an omission and not all that bad, so leave it in the past. Just forget it. Oh yeah--I get it. The present IS affected. But it wasn't that big a deal, so leave it in the past and forget about it. Oh I get it. It's affecting the present. But ... " A person doesn't break a 40-year habit in one or two visits to the counselor! 
b) She has no memory of whatever it was that happened. Facing whatever happened may be more scary than facing that she might lose you if she doesn't face it. So as I reminded you before, bear in mind that LOTS of people, after 40 years of denial, just can not and will not face what they are afraid of. The pain of facing that old trauma is worse than the pain of divorcing. 
c) Before all is said and done here, she is going to try every old trick in the book that she ever used to get you to back down. If she cried and that made you stop pushing her, she'll try crying. If she yelled and that made you stop pushing her, she'll yell. As you go through these times, try to stay aware "Is this a tactic or trick she used before that made me back down?" and if the answer is yes, just know that I told you she is going to try all the tricks she knows to avoid looking at this trauma. 
d) It took me five years of good, steady counseling to get through my abusive childhood issues. I was highly personally motivated and did the personal work every week and it still took five years--imagine how long it would take someone who wasn't motivated and who avoided doing the work...someone who was fighting it! I suspect the length of time would double if it worked at all! So your expectation to see any improvement at this point is probably a bit optimistic to say the least. She won't magically be fixed in just a couple meetings. The counselor isn't a human lie detector or referee either--s/he only has the info that they are given by your wife or by you. Thus, I recommend adjusting your expectation and if you want or need something from your wife, ask for it directly. "I just got back for a trip and I am really needing some reassurance and connection. Would you be willing to emotionally connect with me by ____?"


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## Casual Observer

Affaircare said:


> @Casual Observer
> By your own admission, whatever it was that happened, happened 40+ years ago. That means she has had 40+ years of practicing AVOIDING IT. She has had four decades of actively denying that it happened to her own self and mentally putting it in a jar, in a chest locked with chains, in a vault, underground, behind hundreds of locks. She has had four decades of convincing herself that she didn't lie...she omitted (and by the way, to my mind, a purposeful omission for the sake of hiding is a lie). She has had four decades of convincing herself that "whatever it was" didn't really happen, it wasn't all that bad, she was in control, and it wasn't that big a deal (and all four decades she has known on some level that it DID happen, it WAS bad, she was out of control and probably over-powered, and it WAS a HUGE deal).
> 
> To me, it seems obvious and natural that she would
> a) Return to her habit that she has been using for the past 40 years "My past is in the past, just forget it. Oh wait--I get it. It does affect the present. Yeah. But it's was just an omission and not all that bad, so leave it in the past. Just forget it. Oh yeah--I get it. The present IS affected. But it wasn't that big a deal, so leave it in the past and forget about it. Oh I get it. It's affecting the present. But ... " A person doesn't break a 40-year habit in one or two visits to the counselor!
> b) She has no memory of whatever it was that happened. Facing whatever happened may be more scary than facing that she might lose you if she doesn't face it. So as I reminded you before, bear in mind that LOTS of people, after 40 years of denial, just can not and will not face what they are afraid of. The pain of facing that old trauma is worse than the pain of divorcing.
> c) Before all is said and done here, she is going to try every old trick in the book that she ever used to get you to back down. If she cried and that made you stop pushing her, she'll try crying. If she yelled and that made you stop pushing her, she'll yell. As you go through these times, try to stay aware "Is this a tactic or trick she used before that made me back down?" and if the answer is yes, just know that I told you she is going to try all the tricks she knows to avoid looking at this trauma.
> d) It took me five years of good, steady counseling to get through my abusive childhood issues. I was highly personally motivated and did the personal work every week and it still took five years--imagine how long it would take someone who wasn't motivated and who avoided doing the work...someone who was fighting it! I suspect the length of time would double if it worked at all! So your expectation to see any improvement at this point is probably a bit optimistic to say the least. She won't magically be fixed in just a couple meetings. The counselor isn't a human lie detector or referee either--s/he only has the info that they are given by your wife or by you. Thus, I recommend adjusting your expectation and if you want or need something from your wife, ask for it directly. "I just got back for a trip and I am really needing some reassurance and connection. Would you be willing to emotionally connect with me by ____?"


Many would suggest (and have suggested) that I just need to forget about it because it was 42 or 43 years ago, so why do I still care? Why can't I just drop it and move on? 

I forgot to mention something else in the conversation last night. When she wanted to know why I thought her trauma and lies had caused issues for us, I asked her how could they have not had a great effect on her? What type of person would not have felt terribly guilty about lying about the things she lied about? 

If somebody offered that sort of "choice" to me, I'd jump at it. I'd want to claim all manner of things happened because of my active conscience that made me feel terribly guilty. Isn't the alternative a whole lot worse? 

Wanting to reconnect after the trip is a tough one. I would rather see the not-looking-forward-to-sex thing fixed first, before asking for more. We're on a schedule, which she's been really good with. She tries to make it something to look forward to. I need to support her in that. Normally, that works well because I get to anticipate an enjoyable intimate time with my wife. Thinking about what's going to happen tomorrow night can make the wait worthwhile, if that makes sense. But there should be times allowed for what happened last night. I'll go over that with her. I just wish she could say, I'm here for you. Right now. Let's see if I can reassure & relax you so you can feel better and sleep.

I also brought up last night, when discussing the IC/MCs thinking that she had been raped, how it hit me when my wife told me she felt like she was being raped, by me, when having sex. She made a point of telling me she said that just one time, but it wasn't for just one event, it covered the past umpteen years of how she'd felt at times. She really had no idea how that made me feel. Still doesn't. 

Lots of work ahead. Just did not expect to get hit so hard last night by a variety of triggers. Hate that.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Casual Observer said:


> Let's see if I can reassure & relax you so you can feel better and sleep.


But this is for you, not her. She doesn't want to have sex to relax. She also didn't want to be closer to you last night. You seem to confuse how she feels with how you *wish* she felt. I know you didn't go there or say anything, but if you could remove from your mind that having sex with her would be a gift to *her* in anyway, you might make more progress. I also realize that is hurtful, that she doesn't see sex as something to do for relaxation, to show love for each other, for emotional bonding, or as a gift, etc. But it is better to really understand her how she is rather than keep wishing and pining for her to be how she isn't.

Ok so long ago something happened and she is holding back, she never recovered from (?), she is a closed off person, etc and so forth.

But she is who she is. Even if she digs to the bottom of this barrel you are asking her to dig into and finds some piece of emotional blockage from decades ago, she is still a whole human being right now, baggage and all.

I think you would feel so much better if you could stop hoping she will become a different person. You could still try to improve and still try to get more of your needs met. But what you seem to be doing is hoping she will literally just be a different person than she is. Not only is that insulting to her (she doesn't feel there is anything wrong with her) but it is going to continue hurting *you* because you are hoping for something that isn't actually possible.


----------



## Casual Observer

Faithful Wife said:


> But this is for you, not her. She doesn't want to have sex to relax. She also didn't want to be closer to you last night. You seem to confuse how she feels with how you *wish* she felt. I know you didn't go there or say anything, but if you could remove from your mind that having sex with her would be a gift to *her* in anyway, you might make more progress. I also realize that is hurtful, that she doesn't see sex as something to do for relaxation, to show love for each other, for emotional bonding, or as a gift, etc. But it is better to really understand her how she is rather than keep wishing and pining for her to be how she isn't.
> 
> Ok so long ago something happened and she is holding back, she never recovered from (?), she is a closed off person, etc and so forth.
> 
> But she is who she is. Even if she digs to the bottom of this barrel you are asking her to dig into and finds some piece of emotional blockage from decades ago, she is still a whole human being right now, baggage and all.
> 
> I think you would feel so much better if you could stop hoping she will become a different person. You could still try to improve and still try to get more of your needs met. But what you seem to be doing is hoping she will literally just be a different person than she is. Not only is that insulting to her (she doesn't feel there is anything wrong with her) but it is going to continue hurting *you* because you are hoping for something that isn't actually possible.


I never said that her offering "herself" to me was in any way anything other than a gift from her to me. As for her not thinking anything is wrong with her, that's not the case, not by any stretch of the imagination. She knows she's messed up, big time. She knows she's emotionally tone-deaf. She knows she has issues with negativity. She knows she has gotten away with, and still tries to get away with, agreeing to things long term and then going back on them two weeks later. 

She knows all of those things are problems. She doesn't pretend to be happy about the person she is. She wants to change, she says she cannot imagine a life without me in it. 

I don't want her jumping through hoops. I want to see long-term therapy help make her a contented person, and give me some space for my own issues. None of that will ever happen if there isn't some degree of accountability. She's had none up until now. 

If things don't work out, they don't work out. I hope they do work out. She hopes they work out. But she's always assumed she had free reign, that the marriage vows allowed her to, at times, abuse me, at times, abuse those around her, at times, outright lie about things (not just way back then and not just about those issues but all manner of other things in which one could be held accountable, including the repossession of our car, which I did not berate her for and she continues to believe the company acted illegally because SHE thinks they shouldn't have done what they did...).

Life today is better than a year ago. That's a start, right? She is trying, but only at things that don't conflict with her wanting to avoid accountability while blaming others. But before she wasn't even trying. She saw no need. She was becoming increasingly bitter as she got older, despite having far fewer things to be bitter about. 

I hate defending myself by explaining what I'm dealing with. If I could throw myself under the bus and fix things, I would.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Casual Observer said:


> But she's always assumed she had free reign, that the marriage vows allowed her to, at times, abuse me, at times, abuse those around her, at times, outright lie about things (not just way back then and not just about those issues but all manner of other things in which one could be held accountable, including the repossession of our car, which I did not berate her for and she continues to believe the company acted illegally because SHE thinks they shouldn't have done what they did....


Ok take this paragraph right here. THIS IS WHO SHE REALLY IS. 

Lies, abuse, her head is in the sand, she continues to believe she is entitled to act this way, she changes her story.....

It seems like you can't actually accept reality. Like you keep hoping that MC/IC or a miracle will change her into someone she is not.

You are telling us these things seemingly to help make your case, but it actually just says to me that you refuse to accept who she really is. It sounds like she isn't a great wife, but you don't want to face that and keep sort of reshuffling the facts (yes I believe you that they are facts) around in order to try this, that or the other way to be able to see her. Instead of just seeing her for how and what she is.

- - Not very passionate for you. Not a great wife. Abusive, defensive, and a liar. - - 

I know you love her and I'm not discouraging that. I just think you are having a hard time with reality. You can love her in spite of all I just wrote, in fact many people love their spouses who are much worse than that. But you seem to be loving a fantasy of her you have created in your mind, not the real her as she actually is.

I'm not asking you about HER or her feelings, I'm talking about what seems to be a lack of seeing reality in YOU.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Casual Observer said:


> If I could throw myself under the bus and fix things, I would.


SHE does not want to fix anything. Only you do. Haven't you seen that yet? That's why you're the one willing to throw yourself under the bus. She could care less and wishes you would just accept her as she is. You are basically saying you can't accept her unless she changes, and yet she is saying she loves you as you are. Which one of those is a more loving position?


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## farsidejunky

"Wife, I can't remain with a partner that acts as if lies of omission are 'acceptable' lies. I can't remain married to someone who believes it is okay to rewrite history in order to justify hiding emotionally. Living an authentic life is too important.Anything less will show we simply aren't compatible."

From there, soft 180.

CO, you are dragging her through this. The reason you are doing it was also illustrated in your need for her to comfort you at the end of your difficult conversation. 

Until you no longer need her, nothing will change, because this will all be 'your idea'. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## sunsetmist

I'm focused and agreeing with what many others have said, but here is my version. Know that three weeks after marriage my now ex began withholding sex and blamed me---multiple reasons. One was that I enjoyed sex with him too much before marriage. I was astounded at his beliefs about me, the way he railed at me. It took many years before I knew about his addiction to porn and strip clubs. My agony and all exhaustive efforts caused me much angst. I loved him so, but he absolutely smothered that and crushed my spirit.

Just to make sure you understand that when she says she does not remember--that is truth. Those memories are literally blocked and unraveling the hidden, pain-laden past is gut-wrenching. She loves you very much to be willing to try to do this. Forty years ago opinions about sex were quite different, too. 

You seem to me to feel cheated of what might-have-been--a passion-filled marriage. I understand this is your truth, but it cannot be undone. Future alliances you might make would still likely be overshadowed by the past and the wife you loved so. She, too, is torn about how her dreams have been pummelled.

I wish you could have asked for what you needed after the trip. What would have happened if you had? Have you doubted yourself because she lost her loving sexual identity after y'all first had sex. That would be an ego blow. Yet, because she needed to talk, you did this, all the while feeling emptier and emptier.

You rightfully resent her lying. 'Tis hard for an outsider to know how much she lied, how much she tried to protect you, how much she was protecting self--even internal, hidden parts. If she changes, you know it must be because she can or maybe not in the way you hope. You have to decide how you choose to live then

Y'all have built up a huge residue of arguing about sex over the years--her saying to go find it elsewhere was quite painful. Her bitterness may be because she feels she is drowning and doesn't know how to swim. First sexual experiences are rarely outstanding. Going downhill, losing connection is worse. You seem almost scarily driven at this point.

It is difficult to have in intimacy, closeness, spirits of giving in the situation you have described. Gently now, I hope you can be perhaps softer, more future focused--who knows it may make a difference. I do pray for spectacular years for you to come.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Long term consequences of lies/omissions &amp; RJ*

Listen to FW, CO.

What I said only works with someone willing to do the work.

If she isn't willing, the two of you are NOT compatible. 

You can't force her to be who you want. All you can't do is lay out your expectation and give her the space to meet it...or not.

You are dragging her along, then seem to be frustrated that the process requires effort. 

Sometimes the best thing you can do is to stop pulling and simply drop the rope. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Personal

@Casual Observer when you have excised sufficient flesh to satiate yourself, will you finally put an end to your campaign against your wife?


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## Casual Observer

I appreciate the concern for my wife's well being and my own sanity. But it all makes me wonder if I explain things very well? 

I will remain, I will update the story over time, I will listen to what people tell me and consider all options. I accept that much of the issue is with me. What I don't accept is the idea that things cannot change, that new information is irrelevant because there's a statute of limitations on fixing problems.

So I'm sure you're all imagining a bloody spot on the wall where I keep banging my head. That's OK.


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## Personal

Casual Observer said:


> So I'm sure you're all imagining a bloody spot on the wall where I keep banging my head. That's OK.


Not me.

I am imagining you cutting chunks of flesh off your wife and weighing them before cutting some more off of her, because no matter how much she bleeds it will never be enough for you.


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## Casual Observer

Personal said:


> @Casual Observer when you have excised sufficient flesh to satiate yourself, will you finally put an end to your campaign against your wife?


I understand where you're coming from, yet still have to admit that I find it offensive. But, I have a thick skin. My biggest flaw may have been too much patience in the past. Along with being a super-fast typist so I tend to elaborate too much here. I don't talk nearly so much and am very measured in what I say.

My wife is confident that the current path, using IC/MC and a psychologist, will get good results and be best for her. The psychologist works 100% on her behalf. She appreciates that. I appreciate that.


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## Faithful Wife

Casual Observer said:


> I appreciate the concern for my wife's well being and my own sanity. But it all makes me wonder if I explain things very well?
> 
> I will remain, I will update the story over time, I will listen to what people tell me and consider all options. I accept that much of the issue is with me. What I don't accept is the idea that things cannot change, that new information is irrelevant because there's a statute of limitations on fixing problems.
> 
> So I'm sure you're all imagining a bloody spot on the wall where I keep banging my head. That's OK.


I can’t remember, are you in IC also?

I don’t think things will change to your satisfaction. But I think you could work on just yourself for a bit and stop working on her. And that maybe even if things don’t change, if you can just get to a point of acceptance you might actually find satisfaction.

Would it be possible for you to be satisfied if she doesn’t change? That’s what you need to find out.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Long term consequences of lies/omissions &amp; RJ*



Casual Observer said:


> I understand where you're coming from, yet still have to admit that I find it offensive. But, I have a thick skin. My biggest flaw may have been too much patience in the past. Along with being a super-fast typist so I tend to elaborate too much here. I don't talk nearly so much and am very measured in what I say.
> 
> 
> 
> My wife is confident that the current path, using IC/MC and a psychologist, will get good results and be best for her. The psychologist works 100% on her behalf. She appreciates that. I appreciate that.


Why would you find it offensive?

While @Personal may not have delivered his message with kid gloves, it does not make the content of the message any less relevant. 

Your wife is not required to live up to your expectations. 

Attempting to get her to do so is, at its roots, controlling and ego-protective. It comes through clearly in your communication. 

What happens when you squeeze and squeeze in your attempt to get blood from a turnip, only to realize it isn't there? 

What's left of the turnip when you are done squeezing? Will it even be recognizable?

Furthermore, the turnip has been telling you the whole time there is no blood...or if there is, she is unwilling to give it...yet you squeeze anyway.

CO, I second the suggestion of IC. 

And make no mistake...while I am somewhat sympathetic towards your wife, I can clearly see why you are hurt from this. That said, the accountability you are looking for from her really rests with the man staring back at you in the mirror.



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Personal

@farsidejunky Thanks for putting it so well.


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## Casual Observer

Faithful Wife said:


> I can’t remember, are you in IC also?
> 
> I don’t think things will change to your satisfaction. But I think you could work on just yourself for a bit and stop working on her. And that maybe even if things don’t change, if you can just get to a point of acceptance you might actually find satisfaction.
> 
> Would it be possible for you to be satisfied if she doesn’t change? That’s what you need to find out.


That is a very good question. 



farsidejunky said:


> Why would you find it offensive?
> 
> While @Personal may not have delivered his message with kid gloves, it does not make the content of the message any less relevant.
> 
> Your wife is not required to live up to your expectations.
> 
> Attempting to get her to do so is, at its roots, controlling and ego-protective. It comes through clearly in your communication.
> 
> What happens when you squeeze and squeeze in your attempt to get blood from a turnip, only to realize it isn't there?
> 
> What's left of the turnip when you are done squeezing? Will it even be recognizable?
> 
> Furthermore, the turnip has been telling you the whole time there is no blood...or if there is, she is unwilling to give it...yet you squeeze anyway.
> 
> CO, I second the suggestion of IC.
> 
> And make no mistake...while I am somewhat sympathetic towards your wife, I can clearly see why you are hurt from this. That said, the accountability you are looking for from her really rests with the man staring back at you in the mirror.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


True, my wife is not required to live up to my expectations. But, if she's suffering from trauma (and we're seeing increasing evidence and comments from her IC/MC & Psychologist that she is), I'm of the belief that it makes sense to try and deal with that. People don't have to be "broken" forever. Or maybe, in this case, she does. I think it's way too early in the process to make that determination. 

It's something of a breakthrough that she finally accepts that she's been through a traumatic experience. Until very recently, she refused to believe that a possibility. Now, she's getting professional help with that. Will it work? I hope so. She hopes so. Will it be a painful process? We're told yes. But the goal is that she comes out better at the other end.

That's all I can hope for. Until March, we had no hope. We were just drifting along on momentum, and she was, by the day, becoming angrier and angrier, inside, without telling me, about so many things in our relationship. I had come close to calling it quits a year ago this past summer. Not because of anything specific, just a general growing frustration in her attitude towards anything-me. If it wasn't on her terms, it was bad. I was patient. I put up with it for years. I had to cover for her frequently when she'd say something amazingly insensitive to somebody, often a friend. And she simply would not seek help. An increasing dose of Prozac kept her from lashing out at people too often.

Is that a good way to live? And am I supposed to give up on her? It would have been easy to do. But I stuck with it, mostly because it would be painful breaking up the family. And then came an opportunity to see it as something more than "just" mental illness. Something that could be dealt with through IC/MC & a Psychologist. And that's where we are today.

She's already better. She's accepting of a lot of things she didn't before. She actually listens now to the doctors and therapists instead of shopping for one that parrots her views. 

I am guilty of spewing TMI though. Instead of dumping everything out there, especially whatever is on my mind at the time, I should take a more measured approach and post when something's changed or progressed, rather than a too-frequent reality where-are-things-at-this-very-moment update.


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## Faithful Wife

So are you in IC? If not, why not? You do need the support of someone for yourself.


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## farsidejunky

Casual Observer said:


> That is a very good question.
> 
> 
> 
> True, my wife is not required to live up to my expectations. But, if she's suffering from trauma (and we're seeing increasing evidence and comments from her IC/MC & Psychologist that she is), I'm of the belief that it makes sense to try and deal with that. People don't have to be "broken" forever. Or maybe, in this case, she does. I think it's way too early in the process to make that determination.
> 
> 
> 
> It's something of a breakthrough that she finally accepts that she's been through a traumatic experience. Until very recently, she refused to believe that a possibility. Now, she's getting professional help with that. Will it work? I hope so. She hopes so. Will it be a painful process? We're told yes. But the goal is that she comes out better at the other end.
> 
> 
> 
> That's all I can hope for. Until March, we had no hope. We were just drifting along on momentum, and she was, by the day, becoming angrier and angrier, inside, without telling me, about so many things in our relationship. I had come close to calling it quits a year ago this past summer. Not because of anything specific, just a general growing frustration in her attitude towards anything-me. If it wasn't on her terms, it was bad. I was patient. I put up with it for years. I had to cover for her frequently when she'd say something amazingly insensitive to somebody, often a friend. And she simply would not seek help. An increasing dose of Prozac kept her from lashing out at people too often.
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a good way to live? And am I supposed to give up on her? It would have been easy to do. But I stuck with it, mostly because it would be painful breaking up the family. And then came an opportunity to see it as something more than "just" mental illness. Something that could be dealt with through IC/MC & a Psychologist. And that's where we are today.
> 
> 
> 
> She's already better. She's accepting of a lot of things she didn't before. She actually listens now to the doctors and therapists instead of shopping for one that parrots her views.
> 
> 
> 
> I am guilty of spewing TMI though. Instead of dumping everything out there, especially whatever is on my mind at the time, I should take a more measured approach and post when something's changed or progressed, rather than a too-frequent reality where-are-things-at-this-very-moment update.


Is that really what you got from what I posted?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Casual Observer

Faithful Wife said:


> So are you in IC? If not, why not? You do need the support of someone for yourself.


Thanks and yes.



farsidejunky said:


> Is that really what you got from what I posted?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Sorry to disappoint.


----------



## Livvie

Well, I think *you* are attributing your wife's general negative personality traits to some feelings and happenings in her life many many decades ago-- centered around her being excited about sex with men/a man and then being let down with her first sexual experience. And you think if you can fix her feelings about those long ago experiences, you will fix her general negative personality traits.

Many many people go through horrible life experiences, and they don't as a rule exhibit those kinds of negative personality traits. You can't know that some feelings and happenings around sex caused her personality.

You are being incredibly invasive.... to your wife. Picking and picking and working to convince her she's been through some trauma decades ago and *that's* why she exhibits these behaviors. 

I think you are caught up in this crusade so you don't have to face the fact that she isn't a very nice person to you. You are blaming it on a particular part of her life experience and trying to engineer "fixing" it, and her. You are steamrolling.


----------



## Casual Observer

Livvie said:


> Well, I think *you* are attributing your wife's general negative personality traits to some feelings and happenings in her life many many decades ago-- centered around her being excited about sex with men/a man and then being let down with her first sexual experience. And you think if you can fix her feelings about those long ago experiences, you will fix her general negative personality traits.
> 
> Many many people go through horrible life experiences, and they don't as a rule exhibit those kinds of negative personality traits. You can't know that some feelings and happenings around sex caused her personality.
> 
> You are being incredibly invasive.... to your wife. Picking and picking and working to convince her she's been through some trauma decades ago and *that's* why she exhibits these behaviors.
> 
> I think you are caught up in this crusade so you don't have to face the fact that she isn't a very nice person to you. You are blaming it on a particular part of her life experience and trying to engineer "fixing" it, and her. You are steamrolling.


I do think about exactly this. But the behaviors predated the "picking" so there's that too. This is all very recent stuff. Since March. The other stuff since forever. But yes, I'm sensitive to what you bring up. I try very hard not to be a monster. Thanks.


----------



## Livvie

At a certain point you need to think of yourself, too. And what being treated-- not well-- does to you. Don't get so caught up in the possible fantasy of "what made her this way and how it's going to absolutely get fixed" that you harm yourself...




Casual Observer said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I think *you* are attributing your wife's general negative personality traits to some feelings and happenings in her life many many decades ago-- centered around her being excited about sex with men/a man and then being let down with her first sexual experience. And you think if you can fix her feelings about those long ago experiences, you will fix her general negative personality traits.
> 
> Many many people go through horrible life experiences, and they don't as a rule exhibit those kinds of negative personality traits. You can't know that some feelings and happenings around sex caused her personality.
> 
> You are being incredibly invasive.... to your wife. Picking and picking and working to convince her she's been through some trauma decades ago and *that's* why she exhibits these behaviors.
> 
> I think you are caught up in this crusade so you don't have to face the fact that she isn't a very nice person to you. You are blaming it on a particular part of her life experience and trying to engineer "fixing" it, and her. You are steamrolling.
> 
> 
> 
> I do think about exactly this. But the behaviors predated the "picking" so there's that too. This is all very recent stuff. Since March. The other stuff since forever. But yes, I'm sensitive to what you bring up. I try very hard not to be a monster. Thanks.
Click to expand...


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## In Absentia

I think @Casual Observer is entitled to try whatever he can to save his marriage. He is not happy with the status quo and has stated that he would divorce his wife if these issues are not solved. I understand that, because I've done just that. The only difference is that my wife never agreed to IC (and subsequent CBT therapy) and I never "forced" her to go. Well, I threatened divorce at some point and she agreed to it, because she didn't want to face her ghosts. So, in a way, the OP is progressing and there is hope. Personally, I think he's being selfish (sorry!), because this is mainly about him and wanting to feel better, being accepted and loved. These are all valid and understandable feelings, but it takes two to tango and I think that, at the end of the day, the OP will be highly disappointed with the outcome.


----------



## Blondilocks

You feeling like you were deceived and gypped of a passionate marriage is understandable. Wanting to help your wife confront her demons is compassionate.

What is curious is why you would marry a woman who you knew had lost her passion for you two years prior to marriage. Chalking it up to her feeling guilt due to her religion isn't flying. 

You checked all the boxes for her (except for sex) - is it fair to say that she checked all the boxes for you (except for sex)? Thinking that a marriage ceremony would suddenly turn on the passion is naive and maintaining that stance is disingenuous, I believe.

Do you feel any responsibility for the state of your marriage and where you find yourself, now? You don't need anyone's approval to declare that this marriage doesn't meet your needs and exit. What would be beneficial to you would be to accept that this isn't all on your wife and this isn't all due to her withholding info 40 plus years ago.

I sincerely hope you and your wife can save your marriage and make it better than it has ever been. Good luck.


----------



## Marduk

Casual Observer said:


> That is a very good question.
> 
> True, my wife is not required to live up to my expectations. But, if she's suffering from trauma (and we're seeing increasing evidence and comments from her IC/MC & Psychologist that she is), I'm of the belief that it makes sense to try and deal with that. People don't have to be "broken" forever. Or maybe, in this case, she does. I think it's way too early in the process to make that determination.
> 
> It's something of a breakthrough that she finally accepts that she's been through a traumatic experience. Until very recently, she refused to believe that a possibility. Now, she's getting professional help with that. Will it work? I hope so. She hopes so. Will it be a painful process? We're told yes. But the goal is that she comes out better at the other end.
> 
> That's all I can hope for. Until March, we had no hope. We were just drifting along on momentum, and she was, by the day, becoming angrier and angrier, inside, without telling me, about so many things in our relationship. I had come close to calling it quits a year ago this past summer. Not because of anything specific, just a general growing frustration in her attitude towards anything-me. If it wasn't on her terms, it was bad. I was patient. I put up with it for years. I had to cover for her frequently when she'd say something amazingly insensitive to somebody, often a friend. And she simply would not seek help. An increasing dose of Prozac kept her from lashing out at people too often.
> 
> Is that a good way to live? And am I supposed to give up on her? It would have been easy to do. But I stuck with it, mostly because it would be painful breaking up the family. And then came an opportunity to see it as something more than "just" mental illness. Something that could be dealt with through IC/MC & a Psychologist. And that's where we are today.
> 
> She's already better. She's accepting of a lot of things she didn't before. She actually listens now to the doctors and therapists instead of shopping for one that parrots her views.
> 
> I am guilty of spewing TMI though. Instead of dumping everything out there, especially whatever is on my mind at the time, I should take a more measured approach and post when something's changed or progressed, rather than a too-frequent reality where-are-things-at-this-very-moment update.


Perhaps I can help.

My wife has PTSD from sexual trauma. I have tolerated many behaviours from her in the past few years that I normally would have walked away from because I felt that I needed to support her in healing from her trauma. I’ve been called every name imaginable. Been told off in front of the kids. Told we were divorcing, over and over. Hit. Thrown things at. All kinds of things that I could have easily left over (and maybe should have.) But I didn’t, because I needed to help her.

But. Key in that process early on was finding a very good therapist - someone highly accredited, highly published, and one of the highest levels of education and experience in the country. We got very lucky. She was both knowledgeable in PTSD and BPD. This was key, because the PTSD triggered BPD-like symptoms in my wife. 

And we saw her together multiple times. And boy, did that therapist hold my wife’s feet to the fire! Helped her understand that the PTSD was causing this stuff, which made it not her fault... but that she:

1. was still accountable for her own behaviour.
2. was still capable of controlling her behaviour, because she wasn’t abusing everyone in her life, just me.
3. was actually traumatizing me, and actually transmitted her PTSD to me.
4. was undermining her primary source of support in this world, and if it didn’t stop, she would have none.

So that was hard for her to hear, but she responded well to hearing it.

And then it came to me. I was accountable for:
1. processing my own PTSD, even if it meant doing it my own way. 
2. for looking out for myself, because I’m no selfless martyr so I should take myself right down off that cross.
3. setting better positive boundaries, including walking away and withdrawing my support temporarily if she was abusive. And being open to divorce if that was the best outcome for everyone involved.
4. understanding her trauma and her responses to it, but if I continued to excuse them I was actually harming her in the long term - because I was then enabling her negative behaviour and not forcing her to grow.

So instead of just being loving and supportive, I became loving and supportive, while being educated, in therapy, and very tough on her.

And holy ****, did she respond to it. 99% of that **** is now gone, she’s tough as nails, and driven as hell. She’s putting her dent in the universe as we speak, including making some judges and lawmakers very nervous in the process. She’s a force to be reckoned with now. And our marriage is very, very good, and stronger than it ever was.


----------



## LisaDiane

Marduk said:


> Perhaps I can help.
> 
> My wife has PTSD from sexual trauma. I have tolerated many behaviours from her in the past few years that I normally would have walked away from because I felt that I needed to support her in healing from her trauma. I’ve been called every name imaginable. Been told off in front of the kids. Told we were divorcing, over and over. Hit. Thrown things at. All kinds of things that I could have easily left over (and maybe should have.) But I didn’t, because I needed to help her.
> 
> But. Key in that process early on was finding a very good therapist - someone highly accredited, highly published, and one of the highest levels of education and experience in the country. We got very lucky. She was both knowledgeable in PTSD and BPD. This was key, because the PTSD triggered BPD-like symptoms in my wife.
> 
> And we saw her together multiple times. And boy, did that therapist hold my wife’s feet to the fire! Helped her understand that the PTSD was causing this stuff, which made it not her fault... but that she:
> 
> 1. was still accountable for her own behaviour.
> 2. was still capable of controlling her behaviour, because she wasn’t abusing everyone in her life, just me.
> 3. was actually traumatizing me, and actually transmitted her PTSD to me.
> 4. was undermining her primary source of support in this world, and if it didn’t stop, she would have none.
> 
> So that was hard for her to hear, but she responded well to hearing it.
> 
> And then it came to me. I was accountable for:
> 1. processing my own PTSD, even if it meant doing it my own way.
> 2. for looking out for myself, because I’m no selfless martyr so I should take myself right down off that cross.
> 3. setting better positive boundaries, including walking away and withdrawing my support temporarily if she was abusive. And being open to divorce if that was the best outcome for everyone involved.
> 4. understanding her trauma and her responses to it, but if I continued to excuse them I was actually harming her in the long term - because I was then enabling her negative behaviour and not forcing her to grow.
> 
> So instead of just being loving and supportive, I became loving and supportive, while being educated, in therapy, and very tough on her.
> 
> And holy ****, did she respond to it. 99% of that **** is now gone, she’s tough as nails, and driven as hell. She’s putting her dent in the universe as we speak, including making some judges and lawmakers very nervous in the process. She’s a force to be reckoned with now. And our marriage is very, very good, and stronger than it ever was.



This is BRILLIANT!! Thank you for posting!


----------



## Casual Observer

Livvie said:


> At a certain point you need to think of yourself, too. And what being treated-- not well-- does to you. Don't get so caught up in the possible fantasy of "what made her this way and how it's going to absolutely get fixed" that you harm yourself...


Yes! And this whole thing started with ME going to IC. She had pretty much stopped going to her shrink and therapist, thinking she didn't need to. The IC got the MC thing going and encouraged me to encourage her to get back to her IC and shrink.



In Absentia said:


> I think @Casual Observer is entitled to try whatever he can to save his marriage. He is not happy with the status quo and has stated that he would divorce his wife if these issues are not solved. I understand that, because I've done just that. The only difference is that my wife never agreed to IC (and subsequent CBT therapy) and I never "forced" her to go. Well, I threatened divorce at some point and she agreed to it, because she didn't want to face her ghosts. So, in a way, the OP is progressing and there is hope. Personally, I think he's being selfish (sorry!), because this is mainly about him and wanting to feel better, being accepted and loved. These are all valid and understandable feelings, but it takes two to tango and I think that, at the end of the day, the OP will be highly disappointed with the outcome.


Yes, trying to make things better for myself is definitely a selfish act. I do think about that. Often. But the alternative is, for her, worse. We've discussed this. Leave everything alone, and just go through the motions, marriage on the momentum train. But the thing is, I never before considered getting off that train. She never thought I'd consider that. She wants to stay on the train with me, and she's willing to exchange some very hard work on her part (and that's really what it comes down to... work... and maybe even more than that, doing something that wasn't your idea) to keep the train on its tracks and running too fast for me to be able to get off. I don't really know if that's a good metaphor or not? 



Blondilocks said:


> You feeling like you were deceived and gypped of a passionate marriage is understandable. Wanting to help your wife confront her demons is compassionate.
> 
> What is curious is why you would marry a woman who you knew had lost her passion for you two years prior to marriage. Chalking it up to her feeling guilt due to her religion isn't flying.
> 
> You checked all the boxes for her (except for sex) - is it fair to say that she checked all the boxes for you (except for sex)? Thinking that a marriage ceremony would suddenly turn on the passion is naive and maintaining that stance is disingenuous, I believe.
> 
> Do you feel any responsibility for the state of your marriage and where you find yourself, now? You don't need anyone's approval to declare that this marriage doesn't meet your needs and exit. What would be beneficial to you would be to accept that this isn't all on your wife and this isn't all due to her withholding info 40 plus years ago.
> 
> I sincerely hope you and your wife can save your marriage and make it better than it has ever been. Good luck.


Yes, I feel some responsibility because this flip did happen two years before we got married. I managed to rationalize that it was her religious beliefs and everything would change once married. People are not so smart when they're 21 or 22 or 23. I also came to believe through her. 

I'm trying to be open and not defend my position, but I do feel it necessary to point out that "it" wasn't just 40 plus years ago. Conversations about this continued throughout the marriage, and she pretty much guaranteed that when she had the breakdown three years into the marriage, hysterically crying and talking about something she did before she met me that she hadn't told me about and would someday but she couldn't then. How much more can you do to create an indelible memory that reinforces something? If she hadn't done that, it likely would have faded away. But she did, so it would come up every few years or so. Anything you want to talk about? No, not ready for that conversation yet. After 15 years or so she said she didn't recall the breakdown or the memory. 

And it's on me for putting up with a good 12 years of extraordinarily infrequent (for me) intimacy. 2-3 times per month maybe? And then it became a "duty" type of thing, again, something I should have dealt with. We should have had counseling. That would NOT work because she didn't want to talk with ANYONE about such private matters. I decided not to rock the boat. My fault.

But that was then, this is now. She's exploring her early memories and finding some other interesting things that really disturbed her. One about her Dad that might explain a lot of the nastiness she exhibits towards him the past few decades. The IC/MC and shrink can use such things as "input" for a process to help her get better. It almost doesn't matter what the input is. That's the strange thing I'm learning. It's just accepting that something happened that screwed you up and you can change how you feel about it and get better. I think?


----------



## Affaircare

@Casual Observer, 

You know, I'm not sure what to make of the posts from @farsidejunky, @Faithful Wife, and @Personal. I think I will leave it to them to make the point(s) they are trying to make. 

What I recognize is two things happening simultaneously...and one does not exclude the other:

1) Your wife had a trauma of some sort 40+ years ago. Since that time, she has blocked all memory of it and she numbed herself emotionally. Speaking as a survivor of trauma myself, I know the difference between the "black and white" emotional numbness prior to dealing with the trauma--and the "living color" of emotional awareness after dealing with the trauma. I think, in essence, your hope is that if she deals with the trauma now, with a safe counselor at a safe time in her life, that her ability to be emotionally available will be improved. 

2) At the same time, all these hopes and dreams you have for your wife to face her trauma and become emotionally available are all rooted in YOU and your reasons. That is to say, this all started with YOU being unsatisfied, and YOU being uncomfortable, and YOU wanting more and YOU ... You ... you. Get it? It wasn't her saying to herself "Hey you know what? I am uncomfortable being the woman I am"[and note to self, that is how my own personal transformation started. I did not like who I was and wanted to be different--thus my motivation was internal and self-propelling.] Her "motivation" (if you will) is probably partially fear ... fear of losing you, fear of losing her lifestyle, fear of losing security, fear of getting older alone--you name it. But the idea is that the catalyst of all this change is YOU wanting to change HER. 

Now, I'm not going to even speak to HER. I believe she is in the competent hands of a good IC, a good MC, and a good psychologist, and she may or may not have her own motivations for doing what she's doing. She's not here. So let's not even look at her side of the street right now. 

You ARE here. So yeah--let's do look at you. Do you have ulterior motives? Are you trying to control her or your relationship? Are you pushing and insisting that she do things your way or the highway? These are reasonable and valuable questions to ask yourself. Part of HER growth will definitely be YOU growing and changing too, because if she does have an emotional awakening and become emotionally and mentally healthy, she will require an equally emotionally healthy PARTNER. 

Thus, rather than focusing on her, and what she needs to do, and where she needs to grow (note to self...see how I said "needs" there a couple times? That's an indication of control. It's like "should." Those are words that are like hints that you are putting your rules onto someone else) how about if we use this space for YOU and how You are doing and ways that You are growing to be a better person and partner? 

In conclusion, I do understand that you two are on a schedule for intimacy and that the schedule is working for you both (for the most part). I also understand that you do not desire to "rock the boat" since it is going well right now. Yet when I suggested that you ask her for what you need, I was not suggesting that you say "Hey I'd like sex please" after a trip, nor that you change up your schedule and thus throw a monkey wrench into a good thing. Rather, what I was suggesting was that you be emotionally open with her. If you came home and you were feeling vulnerable and thinking "I could use a little support and reassurance", it's easy to do one of two things: HINT and hope she catches the hint, and when she doesn't, get all pouty about it... or talk, maybe even state or complain, and then give her no idea how to make it better. Neither way will feel like a "win" for her and you will still feel crummy. So instead of hinting or giving her no solution, I recommend a method to folks "When you... I think...I feel... So..." It goes like this:

*"When you..."* = identify the behavior that starts or ignites the thoughts and feelings in you. This is not a blame time ("When you act like an idiot" or "When you are all cold and emotionless" would be blaming) but rather IDENTIFYING the events that occur that start this situation. A good example from this specific instance might be _"When I am away on a business trip and I come home..."_ See how that is just identifying when this situation occurs?

*"I think..."* = say right out loud the thoughts that run through your head. Now, if you are anything like me, my thoughts can be fairly unfiltered. I would not recommend using expletives (even if your thoughts include them...and mine do!) nor using You Statements, but rather this is an opportunity to share what you honestly think. I try to be rawly honest and open, but at the same time kind. Make sense? An example from this specific instance might be _"...I think about whether I'll come home to a safe haven or a fight..." _

*"I feel..." *= sharing your feelings. Now I happen to be a Myers Briggs Feeler, so for me, finding feeling words is super easy and I am very aware of my feelings. For some, they may FEEL...but finding the word for that feeling is hard. So again, don't blame or try to make the other person responsible for your feelings...just share as honestly as you can. Again, I filter only for some degree of kindness whilst making sure I'm being transparent and letting my real feelings be known. An example from this specific instance might be _"...I feel afraid of what might face me and I feel like I could use some reassurance that we are heading in the right direction and I'm okay..."_

*"So..."* = here is where you make a request about what the other person could do about your thoughts and feelings. Here's the thing--so many times we'll say what we think or feel and just leave the other person hanging with no clue what we need or what would make it better! It's like all we want to do is complain and give them no chance to figure us out or fix it! And to be honest, for me I can identify my thoughts and feelings pretty well...fairly easily...but the request is always harder because sometimes I feel the swirl of the thoughts and feelings and have no clue MYSELF what would make it better! So having to think about it and figure out "XYZ would be helpful" actually is helpful, and no matter who is using this technique it kind of gives that person a chance to think "Well...what do I want exactly? What would make a difference? Is that realistic?" etc. Anyway, an example from this specific instance might be something like: _"...So I'd like to ask if you'd be willing to cuddle for a bit on the couch, tell me some of the ways we're heading in a good direction with all this counseling, and maybe say right out loud that we are okay and offer some reassuring support. Would you be willing to do that?"_ 

Put it all together:

_"When I am away on a business trip and I come home...I think about whether I'll come home to a safe haven or a fight...I feel afraid of what might face me and I feel like I could use some reassurance that we are heading in the right direction and I'm okay...So I'd like to ask if you'd be willing to cuddle for a bit on the couch, tell me some of the ways we're heading in a good direction with all this counseling, and maybe say right out loud that we are okay and offer some reassuring support. Would you be willing to do that?"_ 

Now the rule about the request is just that--it is a REQUEST and not a demand. A demand means that the person can't say "no"...a request means that they are free to say "no" with no punishment. BUT ... if the person says "no" then they come back with what they ARE willing to do. For example, if she was afraid the cuddling on the couch would be pushed for sex, she could say "I am really not comfortable cuddling because I'm afraid you'll push for sex. But I am willing to sit right beside you, hold hands, and stroke your arm. Would that work?" 

The reason I recommend that you ask for what you need is that a) if you don't you are hiding your True Self from your spouse, b) if you don't, she may or may not have any idea that you need "that", c) if she doesn't have a clue, she may unwittingly not give you what you need when she has good intent in her heart, d) it is a good way for her to begin to learn YOU if you share your thoughts, feelings, and REQUESTS. I state again, be sure they are REQUESTS to which she is free to say "no" without reprisal...and not demands. Requests are respectful...demands are controlling.


----------



## Casual Observer

*OK, major privacy milestone I almost didn't see*



Affaircare said:


> @Casual Observer, ...
> Put it all together:
> 
> _"When I am away on a business trip and I come home...I think about whether I'll come home to a safe haven or a fight...I feel afraid of what might face me and I feel like I could use some reassurance that we are heading in the right direction and I'm okay...So I'd like to ask if you'd be willing to cuddle for a bit on the couch, tell me some of the ways we're heading in a good direction with all this counseling, and maybe say right out loud that we are okay and offer some reassuring support. Would you be willing to do that?"_
> 
> Now the rule about the request is just that--it is a REQUEST and not a demand. A demand means that the person can't say "no"...a request means that they are free to say "no" with no punishment. BUT ... if the person says "no" then they come back with what they ARE willing to do. For example, if she was afraid the cuddling on the couch would be pushed for sex, she could say "I am really not comfortable cuddling because I'm afraid you'll push for sex. But I am willing to sit right beside you, hold hands, and stroke your arm. Would that work?"
> 
> The reason I recommend that you ask for what you need is that a) if you don't you are hiding your True Self from your spouse, b) if you don't, she may or may not have any idea that you need "that", c) if she doesn't have a clue, she may unwittingly not give you what you need when she has good intent in her heart, d) it is a good way for her to begin to learn YOU if you share your thoughts, feelings, and REQUESTS. I state again, be sure they are REQUESTS to which she is free to say "no" without reprisal...and not demands. Requests are respectful...demands are controlling.


Returning to the trip, I was afraid to make the request. There was certainly not a demand. There have been virtually zero demands, except that we cannot ignore the elephant in the room. If I am telling her that I am unhappy enough to leave if things stay as they are, that is not exactly a "request." We can pretend all we want, but no matter how you rephrase it, the person receiving that information is likely to see it as a demand. I just think it's disingenuous to suggest that "If x then y, otherwise z" is anything other than a demand.

For me, the key is to have a credible path that makes both choices available (a better word might be "reasonable") to the other person. It would be totally unfair to expect the other person to change something that is clearly not within their capability. It would not be unfair, I think, to propose a change that the other person would need to put some effort into.

Getting back to coming home from the biz trip, another elephant in the room is my fear of rejection. Nobody else has brought that up, but it's a real thing. That's caused some bad choices on my part, and is why I'm responsible for some of the issues that have come up. I've never meant to suggest it's all her. 

The sharing thoughts stuff is really tough, due to the hugely differing notions of privacy. That *is* changing! She actually asked if I'd like to go to her next physical therapy appointment with her. It doesn't sound like a big deal, but it is. I've been shut out of all of her oncology appointments so far. In the future, I don't think that will be the case. This is such a significant milestone I'm actually close to tears typing this. I didn't give much thought about it until just now. She mentioned this (the upcoming appointment) yesterday. This sounds so corny. That's ok. If someone else has a laugh at my expense, what did it really cost me?

Thanks-


----------



## Affaircare

*Re: OK, major privacy milestone I almost didn't see*



Casual Observer said:


> Returning to the trip, I was afraid to make the request. There was certainly not a demand. There have been virtually zero demands, except that we cannot ignore the elephant in the room. If I am telling her that I am unhappy enough to leave if things stay as they are, that is not exactly a "request." We can pretend all we want, but no matter how you rephrase it, the person receiving that information is likely to see it as a demand. I just think it's disingenuous to suggest that "If x then y, otherwise z" is anything other than a demand.


Well let me challenge you a little bit. You are not DEMANDING that she change. You are statiing where you are: "If things stay the same, I will leave." She has the choice to change or stay the same. The consequence of staying the same is that she loses you/the benefit is she doesn't have to face something she is afraid of. The consequence of changing is that it's scary and hard work/the benefit is she doesn't have to change her lifestyle and she gets to keep you. 

See, a demand is no option to say "no." She has the choice to say "no" to the elephant in the room. The result of her no would be a divorce, but that option to say "no" is still there. 



> For me, the key is to have a credible path that makes both choices available (a better word might be "reasonable") to the other person. It would be totally unfair to expect the other person to change something that is clearly not within their capability. It would not be unfair, I think, to propose a change that the other person would need to put some effort into.


Again, I somewhat challenge this point of view. What I think is reasonable for you may be far from reasonable in your mind. I don't get to determine what is and is not reasonable, and neither do you. I think it is much more authentic and transparent to say "Here's where I am. Here's what I need. I'd like to ask for ___. Are you willing?" Now, when you decide what to ask for, you can take into consideration what you think their capability may be. I mean, I'm not going to ask EB to be tall! > That would be unfair! But what I might ask for is a stool...because neither one of us, being shorties, can reach that high thing. You get the drift, right? Sure, ask for what is within their ability, but the point of the exercise is for YOU to be open and transparent...let them see the True You. It should be authentic, and not an image of what you think they want to see. 



> Getting back to coming home from the biz trip, another elephant in the room is my fear of rejection. Nobody else has brought that up, but it's a real thing. That's caused some bad choices on my part, and is why I'm responsible for some of the issues that have come up. I've never meant to suggest it's all her.


Okay fear of rejection is a biggie for me as well, so I totally get ya. Hey, my own parents beat me up, so my loveability is a constant struggle for me. And yet, a) I know it is MY issue, not anyone else's and b) I can be honest about it if I'm having a wobble. It's okay to be a human being that couldn't bear the weight of the world in that moment. So I get it--you're afraid that if you do ask, she'll say "no" or she'll outright reject you. But IN REAL LIFE, you do think X and you do feel Y...and part of being intimate with your partner is not only sharing physically, but also emotionally and mentally WHO YOU TRULY ARE. 

I say start with sharing the technique and giving a test run to an easy "I think...I feel...So I'd like to ask..." so she gets the hang of it and you get one "non-rejection" under your belt. Go for a one-minute hug and nothing more. That's a good start!



> The sharing thoughts stuff is really tough, due to the hugely differing notions of privacy. That *is* changing! She actually asked if I'd like to go to her next physical therapy appointment with her. It doesn't sound like a big deal, but it is. I've been shut out of all of her oncology appointments so far. In the future, I don't think that will be the case. This is such a significant milestone I'm actually close to tears typing this. I didn't give much thought about it until just now. She mentioned this (the upcoming appointment) yesterday. This sounds so corny. That's ok. If someone else has a laugh at my expense, what did it really cost me?
> 
> Thanks-


It is GIGANTIC that she invited you and is including you in her appointments. That is her actively opening herself to some vulnerability. A) Do not loose sight of how HUGE a gift that is. She let you IN! B) She gave a try to you and is trusting you to be kind and thoughtful of her in her medical things--reciprocate. Give it a try and trust her to be kind and thoughtful with what you need. Don't ask for a grand romantic gesture...just something simple but meaningful.


----------



## In Absentia

*Re: OK, major privacy milestone I almost didn't see*



Affaircare said:


> See, a demand is no option to say "no." She has the choice to say "no" to the elephant in the room. The result of her no would be a divorce, but that option to say "no" is still there.


Of course the option of saying no is still there, but like my wife used to say to me when I was threatening her with divorce... "you are blackmailing me into having sex with you"...


----------



## LisaDiane

*Re: OK, major privacy milestone I almost didn't see*



In Absentia said:


> Of course the option of saying no is still there, but like my wife used to say to me when I was threatening her with divorce... "you are blackmailing me into having sex with you"...


This is a terrible thing to say to a partner who is expressing their need to their partner!! It sounds like a manipulation, and an attempt to redirect the focus of the conversation.

I hope things worked out for you...


----------



## LisaDiane

*Re: OK, major privacy milestone I almost didn't see*



Affaircare said:


> ....the point of the exercise is for YOU to be open and transparent...let them see the True You. It should be authentic, and not an image of what you think they want to see.



This whole post (and your other one!) is terrific and very important for me to read, but this one part is the crux of MY issues, and I didn't even realize it until I read this post -- I LIKE being the image of what my partner wants to see!!! I like having control of it, so I can be sure I will make him happy and he will love me and want me!

WOW -- I don't know if this helped CO or anyone else, but it's brought up something important for me, and I'm grateful to you for it!

Now to get the courage to want to disturb my comfort zone....I don't think I'm there yet!


----------



## In Absentia

*Re: OK, major privacy milestone I almost didn't see*



LisaDiane said:


> I hope things worked out for you...


They are not working out at all... we separated not long ago, only to cancel it the other day because she is having a major depressive episode and I need her to be stable... I don't really care about myself right now.

She uses the blackmailing thing quite often... but then blaming others is part of her illness.


----------



## LisaDiane

*Re: OK, major privacy milestone I almost didn't see*



In Absentia said:


> They are not working out at all... we separated not long ago, only to cancel it the other day because she is having a major depressive episode and I need her to be stable... I don't really care about myself right now.
> 
> She uses the blackmailing thing quite often... but then blaming others is part of her illness.


Well, at least you are making the effort to get her claws out of you...are you sure her "illness" isn't just Narcissistic Personality Disorder??

It's hard to disrupt the stability of your regular life, no matter how miserable you might be, so there's no shame in struggling with it - it's scary and uncertain, and feels "wrong", especially when you can't see the light at the end of that tunnel.
No matter what she (or anyone else) has made you feel, remember, you deserve to have YOUR needs met, and there's nothing wrong with HAVING those needs either! So just be as strong as you can be, and keep prying her claws out of you, one little step at a time, and you WILL get there.


----------



## In Absentia

*Re: OK, major privacy milestone I almost didn't see*



LisaDiane said:


> Well, at least you are making the effort to get her claws out of you...are you sure her "illness" isn't just Narcissistic Personality Disorder??


She has "Pure O" OCD... intrusive thoughts she doesn't act on. Mainly catastrophic ones.



LisaDiane said:


> So just be as strong as you can be, and keep prying her claws out of you, one little step at a time, and you WILL get there.


I'm doing that, but it's a painful and slow process, which will require some time. I'm trying to "condition her", so she doesn't see me as the "bad guy" and maybe she will accept my departure one day without having an episode...

But I don't want to threadjack CO's journey towards Nirvana (sorry! :laugh... which is a bit like mine. I failed, but I hope he will succeed!


----------



## Casual Observer

*Re: OK, major privacy milestone I almost didn't see*



LisaDiane said:


> No matter what she (or anyone else) has made you feel, remember, you deserve to have YOUR needs met, and there's nothing wrong with HAVING those needs either!


I realize that your comment is regarding someone else, not me, yet it's still relevant. The issue with telling her that you have needs that deserve to be met is this: She may very well believe she's meeting those needs, as best she can, in her way. She may become very frustrated that you don't respect her efforts to try and meet those needs. She will accuse you of expecting perfection from her and being unwilling to compromise. She will cry her eyes out over how much she's done, how much she's changed, all for you.

Anyway, I just heard this happens. No personal experience. None at all. Just sayin'.


----------



## LisaDiane

*Re: OK, major privacy milestone I almost didn't see*



Casual Observer said:


> I realize that your comment is regarding someone else, not me, yet it's still relevant. The issue with telling her that you have needs that deserve to be met is this: She may very well believe she's meeting those needs, as best she can, in her way. She may become very frustrated that you don't respect her efforts to try and meet those needs. She will accuse you of expecting perfection from her and being unwilling to compromise. She will cry her eyes out over how much she's done, how much she's changed, all for you.
> 
> Anyway, I just heard this happens. No personal experience. None at all. Just sayin'.


UGH!!! WHERE are these women coming from...?!!!

In a partnership, this type of reaction is immature, utterly self-centered, and total manipulation. Not only is she unwilling to try and meet her partner's needs, she wants to PRETEND that she is actually trying -- this would hurt me deeply and infuriate me!!! I cannot imagine how love can stay alive in an environment like this.

She is trying to SHAME her partner into turning everything back around onto HER getting her needs met - her partner isn't even allowed to expect anything else I guess. THIS is Narcissism, I hate to say it. Maybe not a full-blown personality disorder (like my father has), but it's absolutely narcissistically manipulative, and WRONG. I grew-up with this stuff directed at me, and it was deeply damaging, even though I knew pretty early on that HE was the one with the problem. After nearly 20 years of No Contact with him, I STILL feel ashamed to ask for things I want or need in my relationships!

If I was with someone like this, I would sit-down and give them a Come To Jesus Moment - if I mean SO little to them that they would treat me this way, then I'd rather be alone.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

*Re: OK, major privacy milestone I almost didn't see*



Casual Observer said:


> I realize that your comment is regarding someone else, not me, yet it's still relevant. The issue with telling her that you have needs that deserve to be met is this: She may very well believe she's meeting those needs, as best she can, in her way. She may become very frustrated that you don't respect her efforts to try and meet those needs. She will accuse you of expecting perfection from her and being unwilling to compromise. She will cry her eyes out over how much she's done, how much she's changed, all for you.
> 
> Anyway, I just heard this happens. No personal experience. None at all. Just sayin'.


In IA's case, she ISNT putting any effort at all into meeting his needs, never has been. She doesnt give half a damn what he needs or wants. She is manipulative and selfish, and has some serious mental issues.

However YOUR W seems to be making a real effort. Personally I am still not sure what exactly her motivating factor IS for trying, but the fact remains that she is. Of course its up to you going forward how and for how long you choose to work with her on this.


----------



## In Absentia

*Re: OK, major privacy milestone I almost didn't see*



3Xnocharm said:


> Personally I am still not sure what exactly her motivating factor IS for trying, but the fact remains that she is.


She knows that CO will divorce her if the situation doesn't improve. But at least she is trying...


----------



## Casual Observer

*Re: OK, major privacy milestone I almost didn't see*



In Absentia said:


> She knows that CO will divorce her if the situation doesn't improve. But at least she is trying...


That makes it sound so harsh. It's the truth, but somehow it seems better to say that the frustration I feel has become so great that I can't see things working out if she can't find it within her to understand what it is she does (or doesn't do) that makes me feel the way I do. It's a conversation she goes out of the way to avoid, because it makes her cry. I carry with me the pain of things in our relationship throughout the day, nearly every day, and she thinks it's too much burden on her to deal with it maybe an hour a week. 

I don't think I'm explaining things very well here. Part of it is that I've got a couple of threads on different things and it's easy to lose track of where I am. 

The good thing, and it remains a good thing, is that she's opened up ever-so-slightly on the privacy stuff and allowed me to come to her PT appointment. What still needs work is her attitude about what her shrink has told her, how she needs to change her attitude and how she looks at things. What needs to change, FOR me, FOR us, because it's not all about her, is for her to be more open about what's going on, let me know what it is that needs to change, so I can help her with it. The 100% truthful reason she doesn't like that is because she has an entire life of agreeing to something for a few weeks and then sliding back into her comfort zone. The last thing in the world she wants is accountability. And that will be the topic I bring up at tomorrow's MC session.


----------



## Affaircare

*Re: OK, major privacy milestone I almost didn't see*



Casual Observer said:


> I realize that your comment is regarding someone else, not me, yet it's still relevant. The issue with telling her that you have needs that deserve to be met is this: She may very well believe she's meeting those needs, as best she can, in her way. She may become very frustrated that you don't respect her efforts to try and meet those needs. She will accuse you of expecting perfection from her and being unwilling to compromise. She will cry her eyes out over how much she's done, how much she's changed, all for you.
> 
> Anyway, I just heard this happens. No personal experience. None at all. Just sayin'.


This is an interesting quote, and I'm wondering if you're aware it's DARVO: Deny-Attack-Reverse Victim and Offender? 

See, you are who you are, and you have emotional and physical needs just like anyone. She is who she is, and she has emotional and physical needs like anyone. And each individual has the right to have THEIR needs met in the way that THEY need...not accoring to someone else's "best" or in someone else's "way." Now, what an individual CAN NOT DO is try to force their spouse to "do it their way." Thin line! But here's how to envision it. In a RELATIONSHIP, the people RELATE. Person A expresses their needs and how they are able to receive love--and the ideal is that Person B would care about Person A and volunteer to take the rest of their life to LEARN Person A and how they like it! Simultaneously Person A cares about Person B so much that they volunteer to take the rest of their life to LEARN Person B and how they like it! Neither is forcing the other--both volunteer. And the crux of it all...ALL OF IT...is transparency. How can either one learn the other's heart of hearts if they won't be honestly transparent? 

I love @Emerging Buddhist with all that I am. I don't love him "the best I can" and "in my way." I don't attack by saying "You don't respect my effort to try and meet your needs." I don't Reverse Victim and Offender by saying "You just expect perfection and won't compromise! Look at all I do...all for you! Oh Poor ME!" See how that is DARVO? Nope, healthy love is making a commitment to treating him in a loving way. In order to treat him in a loving way, I have to get to know him! I need to learn what he likes, what he doesn't, what he hopes for, what he dreams about, what he NEEDS and what he doesn't--AND VOLUNTARILY PROVIDE THAT FOR HIM. In other words love him in his way as best as I understand it...and if I didn't understand correctly, be willing to hear what would be correct and change! Now it does require me to be quiet and learn from him (I like to just listen--you can learn so much about a person if you listen to them), and it also requires HIM to be open, honest, and transparent with me...even sometimes vulnerable. 

And this is the real crux of the matter I think. To be transparent (let you see the REAL inner Her) and to be accountable for her own self and her own choices--well, she's not quite there yet. I think she might get there someday if she sticks with the counseling, but that day is not today.


----------



## LisaDiane

*Re: OK, major privacy milestone I almost didn't see*



Affaircare said:


> This is an interesting quote, and I'm wondering if you're aware it's DARVO: Deny-Attack-Reverse Victim and Offender?
> 
> See, you are who you are, and you have emotional and physical needs just like anyone. She is who she is, and she has emotional and physical needs like anyone. And each individual has the right to have THEIR needs met in the way that THEY need...not accoring to someone else's "best" or in someone else's "way." Now, what an individual CAN NOT DO is try to force their spouse to "do it their way." Thin line! But here's how to envision it. In a RELATIONSHIP, the people RELATE. Person A expresses their needs and how they are able to receive love--and the ideal is that Person B would care about Person A and volunteer to take the rest of their life to LEARN Person A and how they like it! Simultaneously Person A cares about Person B so much that they volunteer to take the rest of their life to LEARN Person B and how they like it! Neither is forcing the other--both volunteer. And the crux of it all...ALL OF IT...is transparency. How can either one learn the other's heart of hearts if they won't be honestly transparent?
> 
> I love @Emerging Buddhist with all that I am. I don't love him "the best I can" and "in my way." I don't attack by saying "You don't respect my effort to try and meet your needs." I don't Reverse Victim and Offender by saying "You just expect perfection and won't compromise! Look at all I do...all for you! Oh Poor ME!" See how that is DARVO? Nope, healthy love is making a commitment to treating him in a loving way. In order to treat him in a loving way, I have to get to know him! I need to learn what he likes, what he doesn't, what he hopes for, what he dreams about, what he NEEDS and what he doesn't--AND VOLUNTARILY PROVIDE THAT FOR HIM. In other words love him in his way as best as I understand it...and if I didn't understand correctly, be willing to hear what would be correct and change! Now it does require me to be quiet and learn from him (I like to just listen--you can learn so much about a person if you listen to them), and it also requires HIM to be open, honest, and transparent with me...even sometimes vulnerable.
> 
> And this is the real crux of the matter I think. To be transparent (let you see the REAL inner Her) and to be accountable for her own self and her own choices--well, she's not quite there yet. I think she might get there someday if she sticks with the counseling, but that day is not today.



Oh, this is SO well said!!!! Again, you were able to verbalize something that I could only feel!
I am very grateful for your perspective, again - you are really helping me! :smile2:


----------



## Casual Observer

*One step forward, two steps backward?*

Not a fun MC session today. MC arrived a bit late and this was a session we needed twice the normal time for. Things got sidetracked into an important area, but one which could have waited (family finances). Finally got into the real issues, my wife's inability to adapt to saying the things I need to hear, and making it seem like she doesn't want to say them because they're not real. I mean, talk about show-stoppers. For me. And the MC sees it too.

Recent example- the overall theme is a lack of "passion" on her part for me, during intimacy. Not just physical passion, not looking for athletics in the bedroom. Really would prefer the opposite most times. The other night, she was needing a full-body massage, in the worst way. It wasn't a night scheduled for sex. So I told her up-front, no sex tonight. This is for her massage only. Two reasons for telling her this. First, as I mentioned elsewhere, rejection is really tough on me. Second, I wanted her to try and relax and not be thinking this is something that ends up as sex.

As things finished, she's on her back, I've gone just about everywhere but there. And she tells me, then, "I'm available if you want." I didn't make a big thing of it, but told her this wasn't for me, it was for her. If she wanted to make a case that it would be for her, that's fine, but I didn't tell her that.

The next day I explained to her that, what I'd love to hear, what I need to here, if she really desires me as a husband in all ways, I need to hear her say something like "I want you. Now." Or just turn me over onto her and guide me. That would work too.  But she just can't say that for some reason. And she doesn't understand how that's different from saying "I'm available if you want."

So now we're back into the game of her crying, it's my fault that she's crying, why does everything seem to focus on her. That was in the car on the way home. At the MC, I pointed out that my wife is perfectly willing to show affection to the dog and cat and will ADAPT to whatever gets the best response out of them. It was interesting for me to say that because it was something of a revelation. I'd never quite thought about it that way before. That a person puts more into adapting to receive the love of a pet than they do their husband or wife.

She (my wife) thinks all the grief is on her, that hour a week or maybe even every day where she's crying because of what we're going through. She thinks it doesn't affect me as much as it does her. Let me tell you, I'm going through entire DAYS where I can't get it out of my mind. And today might be the worst yet, because, I just recognized what that empty feeling inside me feels like. It feels exactly like the time I broke up with my prior (and only) girlfriend. That empty pit in your stomach that radiates outward. You go about the motions of everyday life trying to act normal and thinking if you can pretend, so will you be. Which actually works to some extent.

I have to get my head back in the game and have happier thoughts. The saving grace about that awful feeling, that feeling that reminds me of breaking up, is that I also felt that feeling a couple times prior to actually breaking up, thinking it was happening when in fact, at that time, it wasn't.

I'm praying this is a false feeling. 

Right now, the ball is in my wife's court. I'm going to be kind, but I'm also going to accept nothing less than accountability on her part. If she wants the marriage to work, she has to work at the marriage, not just react to whatever I'm trying to do.

It's funny how long you can go on momentum. You look back, way back, and you can remember things you thought and did because there were real problems that you did not come to terms with. My wife thought I didn't want a vasectomy after our second kid because I was a wimp, so she had her tubes tied. I explained at the time that, if something happened to my family, I'd want a chance to start over. I loved having kids. What I didn't tell her was that I wasn't all that happy and didn't want to preclude options elsewhere, if we didn't work out. 

I do feel some guilt that I didn't bring everything to light many, many years ago. Decades ago. It was just to easy to go along with the flow, rationalize that things would get better, think maybe this is how things are supposed to be, and consider that my ridiculous patience may have been God's match for a woman with little-to-none.


----------



## Livvie

Wow so she's crying and saying it's your fault she is and lamenting that the focus is on her. 

Do you not see that at this point you are DRAGGING her through something she doesn't want to be dragged through? You are both participating in torturing her became she just doesn't feel passion for you. You can't manufacture it. You can't force it. You can't counsel her into it. 



Casual Observer said:


> Not a fun MC session today. MC arrived a bit late and this was a session we needed twice the normal time for. Things got sidetracked into an important area, but one which could have waited (family finances). Finally got into the real issues, my wife's inability to adapt to saying the things I need to hear, and making it seem like she doesn't want to say them because they're not real. I mean, talk about show-stoppers. For me. And the MC sees it too.
> 
> Recent example- the overall theme is a lack of "passion" on her part for me, during intimacy. Not just physical passion, not looking for athletics in the bedroom. Really would prefer the opposite most times. The other night, she was needing a full-body massage, in the worst way. It wasn't a night scheduled for sex. So I told her up-front, no sex tonight. This is for her massage only. Two reasons for telling her this. First, as I mentioned elsewhere, rejection is really tough on me. Second, I wanted her to try and relax and not be thinking this is something that ends up as sex.
> 
> As things finished, she's on her back, I've gone just about everywhere but there. And she tells me, then, "I'm available if you want." I didn't make a big thing of it, but told her this wasn't for me, it was for her. If she wanted to make a case that it would be for her, that's fine, but I didn't tell her that.
> 
> The next day I explained to her that, what I'd love to hear, what I need to here, if she really desires me as a husband in all ways, I need to hear her say something like "I want you. Now." Or just turn me over onto her and guide me. That would work too. 🙂 But she just can't say that for some reason. And she doesn't understand how that's different from saying "I'm available if you want."
> 
> So now we're back into the game of her crying, it's my fault that she's crying, why does everything seem to focus on her. That was in the car on the way home. At the MC, I pointed out that my wife is perfectly willing to show affection to the dog and cat and will ADAPT to whatever gets the best response out of them. It was interesting for me to say that because it was something of a revelation. I'd never quite thought about it that way before. That a person puts more into adapting to receive the love of a pet than they do their husband or wife.
> 
> She (my wife) thinks all the grief is on her, that hour a week or maybe even every day where she's crying because of what we're going through. She thinks it doesn't affect me as much as it does her. Let me tell you, I'm going through entire DAYS where I can't get it out of my mind. And today might be the worst yet, because, I just recognized what that empty feeling inside me feels like. It feels exactly like the time I broke up with my prior (and only) girlfriend. That empty pit in your stomach that radiates outward. You go about the motions of everyday life trying to act normal and thinking if you can pretend, so will you be. Which actually works to some extent.
> 
> I have to get my head back in the game and have happier thoughts. The saving grace about that awful feeling, that feeling that reminds me of breaking up, is that I also felt that feeling a couple times prior to actually breaking up, thinking it was happening when in fact, at that time, it wasn't.
> 
> I'm praying this is a false feeling.
> 
> Right now, the ball is in my wife's court. I'm going to be kind, but I'm also going to accept nothing less than accountability on her part. If she wants the marriage to work, she has to work at the marriage, not just react to whatever I'm trying to do.
> 
> It's funny how long you can go on momentum. You look back, way back, and you can remember things you thought and did because there were real problems that you did not come to terms with. My wife thought I didn't want a vasectomy after our second kid because I was a wimp, so she had her tubes tied. I explained at the time that, if something happened to my family, I'd want a chance to start over. I loved having kids. What I didn't tell her was that I wasn't all that happy and didn't want to preclude options elsewhere, if we didn't work out.
> 
> I do feel some guilt that I didn't bring everything to light many, many years ago. Decades ago. It was just to easy to go along with the flow, rationalize that things would get better, think maybe this is how things are supposed to be, and consider that my ridiculous patience may have been God's match for a woman with little-to-none.


----------



## sokillme

Livvie said:


> Wow so she's crying and saying it's your fault she is and lamenting that the focus is on her.
> 
> Do you not see that at this point you are DRAGGING her through something she doesn't want to be dragged through? You are both participating in torturing her became she just doesn't feel passion for you. You can't manufacture it. You can't force it. You can't counsel her into it.


Agreed. 16 pages and the point is the same. She doesn't care, not the way you want her to. She hasn't your whole marriage. If you were to stay at the level you are she would be fine, but that is as far a she is willing and has ever been or ever will be willing to go. She is never going to care and you can't make her. This is your wife. She is not affectionate, she thinks of sex with you are a utility of the marriage. She loves you in her own way but it's a very practical love and it probably always has been. Accept it already! Then decide what you want to do.


----------



## Casual Observer

So what is the point to having more than a few months of MC if TAM can figure the outcome early on?

I’ve asked my wife about the “torture” pretty much point blank, using the word “torture.” She stands on it not being fair, but it’s not, to her, torture. She wants desperately to hang onto habits and attitudes that her own IC, psychologist and therapist all tell her are bad for her. 

Maybe I’m missing the point and she’s actually into S&M? A little light humor can’t be entirely bad.


----------



## Livvie

1. She's crying (her eyes out- your words) and saying it's your fault. She is crying and telling you she's frustrated and accusing you of being unwilling to compromise. 

2. How is not having natural passion for, and natural desire to please your spouse merely old habits and attitudes??!? 🙁



Casual Observer said:


> So what is the point to having more than a few months of MC if TAM can figure the outcome early on?
> 
> I’ve asked my wife about the “torture” pretty much point blank, using the word “torture.” She stands on it not being fair, but it’s not, to her, torture. She wants desperately to hang onto habits and attitudes that her own IC, psychologist and therapist all tell her are bad for her.
> 
> Maybe I’m missing the point and she’s actually into S&M? A little light humor can’t be entirely bad.


----------



## Affaircare

*Re: One step forward, two steps backward?*



Casual Observer said:


> Not a fun MC session today. ... Finally got into the real issues, my wife's inability to adapt to saying the things I need to hear, and making it seem like she doesn't want to say them because they're not real. I mean, talk about show-stoppers. For me. And the MC sees it too.


 @Casual Observer--see the part I underlined up there? Can I try to paraphrase that? I am not sure I am understanding what you are trying to say. Are you saying that you are telling your wife specifically some examples of the kinds of things you'd like to hear, and she acts AS IF she doesn't want to say those things because she doesn't really feel them? For example, you actually give her the types of words, and she says that she feels that way, but at the same time, she just WILL NOT say the words...or her version of the words? And that both you and the MC see that she's actually ACTING as if she does not feel that way? 

It's a little complicated, but is that what you're saying?



> Recent example- the overall theme is a lack of "passion" on her part for me, during intimacy. Not just physical passion, not looking for athletics in the bedroom. Really would prefer the opposite most times. The other night, she was needing a full-body massage, in the worst way. It wasn't a night scheduled for sex. So I told her up-front, no sex tonight. This is for her massage only. Two reasons for telling her this. First, as I mentioned elsewhere, rejection is really tough on me. Second, I wanted her to try and relax and not be thinking this is something that ends up as sex.
> 
> As things finished, she's on her back, I've gone just about everywhere but there. And she tells me, then, "I'm available if you want." I didn't make a big thing of it, but told her this wasn't for me, it was for her. If she wanted to make a case that it would be for her, that's fine, but I didn't tell her that.
> 
> The next day I explained to her that, what I'd love to hear, what I need to here, if she really desires me as a husband in all ways, I need to hear her say something like "I want you. Now." Or just turn me over onto her and guide me. That would work too.  But she just can't say that for some reason. And she doesn't understand how that's different from saying "I'm available if you want."


So using this example, she needs a massage and before you get started, you let her know that you are willing to massage her and don't need or want it to be a thing that leads to sex--it's just for her to get the massage she needs. In other words, you're not doing this "in order to get sex" but rather to give to her. As you come to the end of the massage, you've touched everywhere but there...and she says the words "I'm available if you want." That has nothing to do with HER wanting sex or HER wanting you...it is 100% "you gave me what you promised and you can have your reward if you want to take it" and it has an implication that she doesn't want it. 

The next day you made it clear to her that if she wanted to have sex or desired you that you had some example words you'd like to hear, and then you gave her an sample of the kind of words that would work for you. You also gave her another illustration that didn't involve words but more of an action. And yet she refused to "paraphrase" or do anything other than "I'm available if you want" and can't see how that in no way, shape, or form indicates that she wants you...just that she'd be willing to "do her duty" if she had to. 



> So now we're back into *the game of her crying, it's my fault that she's crying, why does everything seem to focus on her*. That was in the car on the way home. At the MC, I pointed out that my wife is perfectly willing to show affection to the dog and cat and will ADAPT to whatever gets the best response out of them. It was interesting for me to say that because it was something of a revelation. I'd never quite thought about it that way before. That a person puts more into adapting to receive the love of a pet than they do their husband or wife.


You realize this is DARVO, right? Deny-Attack-Reverse Victim and Offender. She's not the one who has a problem or is at faulth (deny). It's YOU! You make her cry, ya big meanie, and you hurt her (attack). She is the one who cries for an hour and hurts, not you, because big bad Offender (you) put all the focus on the poor defenseless Victim (her). See it? She is trying to use DARVO to avoid personal responsibility. It's a very common tactic, and it doesn't surprise me that she will try every trick in the book to avoid facing her own issues. Remember me saying that? 

It's also very interesting that you compared her ability to adapt for the pets to her ability to adapt for you. Seemingly both are "for love"...and despite her acting to the contrary, she apparently CAN adapt. More on this below. 



> She (my wife) thinks all the grief is on her, that hour a week or maybe even every day where she's crying because of what we're going through. She thinks it doesn't affect me as much as it does her. Let me tell you, I'm going through entire DAYS where I can't get it out of my mind. And today might be the worst yet, because, I just recognized what that empty feeling inside me feels like. It feels exactly like the time I broke up with my prior (and only) girlfriend. That empty pit in your stomach that radiates outward. You go about the motions of everyday life trying to act normal and thinking if you can pretend, so will you be. Which actually works to some extent.
> 
> I have to get my head back in the game and have happier thoughts. The saving grace about that awful feeling, that feeling that reminds me of breaking up, is that I also felt that feeling a couple times prior to actually breaking up, thinking it was happening when in fact, at that time, it wasn't.
> 
> I'm praying this is a false feeling.


I remember having this feeling with my exH. He was abusive, but I loved him and I just could not wrap my mind around the fact that he didn't love me. I kept wondering "How could a man flip the switch on and off? Love me...then treat me so unlovingly? Rage at me and then pick up the phone and talk normally? Abuse me and then act like we were a happy family in public? How was that possible?" He used to tell me he waa "working on his anger but couldn't control it" and then continue to abuse me. And then ONE DAY I realized that he had never once raged at his boss, or one of our customers, or his mom. He COULD control it! He just chose to not control it with me! Know what that meant? He didn't love me. 

Now I'm not saying it's that way with your wife. She is continuing with her counseling. She is doing the work/assignments when she's not at counseling. She's making the attempt to try. But I think that lightening strike of realization is similar: HOLY SCHNIKEY! They do have some control...they just choose not to do it with me. Yeah...that's a major realization. 



> Right now, the ball is in my wife's court. I'm going to be kind, but I'm also going to accept nothing less than accountability on her part. If she wants the marriage to work, she has to work at the marriage, not just react to whatever I'm trying to do.


In real life this is an important concept. You really CAN NOT control your wife or her motivation to face her issues. SHE has to want that and pursue it from within herself because SHE wants to be different in her heart. I think it is reasonable to remind you that this IS going to take time. Going to a counselor isn't a couple-times and she's fixed kind of things...it's more like years and years of peeling back the layers of an onion if she sticks with it. But it's also important to have some protections in place for your own self. Maybe have some idea of how long you will be able to hold up. Maybe have some idea of what you are and are not willing to accept. Make sense?


----------



## Casual Observer

Livvie said:


> 1. She's crying (her eyes out- your words) and saying it's your fault. She is crying and telling you she's frustrated and accusing you of being unwilling to compromise.
> 
> 2. How is not having natural passion for, and natural desire to please your spouse merely old habits and attitudes??!? 🙁


For point #1, she's had issues with crying about things she feels are out of her control since the beginning of time, and was labeled clinically depressed about 12 years ago. On the positive side, she now has a focus for feeling sad. If you've lived with someone who's depressed, and medicated, you'll know it's an interesting experience. 

For #2, sorry if I wasn't clear. The old habits and attitudes have nothing whatsoever to do with passion. She has never, ever, told her psychiatrist, her psychologist, or even her IC that she's had issues with passion and intimacy. It's her privacy thing. And either the psychiatrist, psychologist and IC were too blind to see what they weren't being told, or, and perhaps this is most likely, they did talk to her about it but she would not tell me about it.

Look, I get it, I'm defending myself and you don't get to hear her side of the story. I do my best to present it, but it's important that the TAM jury stay on my case and keep me reasonably honest. So I do thank you for your remarks. Seriously.


----------



## Openminded

She has had more than four decades of this behavior and *if* she does manage to change significantly it could take a long time. This was never going to be an easy process. Especially since she’s doing this only because she doesn’t want a divorce. If she had her way all this would stay locked away forever and she very strongly resents you because you won’t do that any longer. Can she overcome that and eventually be who you want her to be? I would say likely not but I’d be pleased to be wrong. So tell yourself that tomorrow will be a better day and continue forward.


----------



## sokillme

Casual Observer said:


> So what is the point to having more than a few months of MC if TAM can figure the outcome early on?


I agree. I feel that way about half the post. I guess it's because we are looking at it from a distance without any emotional investment. But honestly we are right a lot more then the people posting are.


----------



## Casual Observer

@Affaircare



> Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
> Not a fun MC session today. ... Finally got into the real issues, my wife's inability to adapt to saying the things I need to hear, and making it seem like she doesn't want to say them because they're not real. I mean, talk about show-stoppers. For me. And the MC sees it too.
> @Casual Observer--see the part I underlined up there? Can I try to paraphrase that? I am not sure I am understanding what you are trying to say. Are you saying that you are telling your wife specifically some examples of the kinds of things you'd like to hear, and she acts AS IF she doesn't want to say those things because she doesn't really feel them? For example, you actually give her the types of words, and she says that she feels that way, but at the same time, she just WILL NOT say the words...or her version of the words? And that both you and the MC see that she's actually ACTING as if she does not feel that way?





> Posted by Affaircare
> It's a little complicated, but is that what you're saying?


Yes, I'm saying that my wife knows exactly what type of thing, even word-for-word if need be, that would provide some feeling of assurance, love, a feeling that she needs me. She understands this, she agrees it's reasonable for me to expect this, but she just cannot bring herself to say something like that. Thus wondering if she doesn't actually feel that way. It's possible she's choosing that one moment to be brutally honest. The MC really doesn't get this. 



> Posted by Casual Observer
> Recent example- the overall theme is a lack of "passion" on her part for me, during intimacy. Not just physical passion, not looking for athletics in the bedroom. Really would prefer the opposite most times. The other night, she was needing a full-body massage, in the worst way. It wasn't a night scheduled for sex. So I told her up-front, no sex tonight. This is for her massage only. Two reasons for telling her this. First, as I mentioned elsewhere, rejection is really tough on me. Second, I wanted her to try and relax and not be thinking this is something that ends up as sex.
> 
> As things finished, she's on her back, I've gone just about everywhere but there. And she tells me, then, "I'm available if you want." I didn't make a big thing of it, but told her this wasn't for me, it was for her. If she wanted to make a case that it would be for her, that's fine, but I didn't tell her that.
> 
> The next day I explained to her that, what I'd love to hear, what I need to here, if she really desires me as a husband in all ways, I need to hear her say something like "I want you. Now." Or just turn me over onto her and guide me. That would work too.  But she just can't say that for some reason. And she doesn't understand how that's different from saying "I'm available if you want."





> Posted by Affaircare
> So using this example, she needs a massage and before you get started, you let her know that you are willing to massage her and don't need or want it to be a thing that leads to sex--it's just for her to get the massage she needs. In other words, you're not doing this "in order to get sex" but rather to give to her. As you come to the end of the massage, you've touched everywhere but there...and she says the words "I'm available if you want." That has nothing to do with HER wanting sex or HER wanting you...it is 100% "you gave me what you promised and you can have your reward if you want to take it" and it has an implication that she doesn't want it.
> 
> The next day you made it clear to her that if she wanted to have sex or desired you that you had some example words you'd like to hear, and then you gave her an sample of the kind of words that would work for you. You also gave her another illustration that didn't involve words but more of an action. And yet she refused to "paraphrase" or do anything other than "I'm available if you want" and can't see how that in no way, shape, or form indicates that she wants you...just that she'd be willing to "do her duty" if she had to.


Yes, this is pretty much covered in my prior paragraph. This "wifely duty" stuff is greatly bothersome to me. Lots of guys would say yeah, great, why is this guy complaining? He's getting sex, and he can get it frequently if he wants! But I don't want sex as a physical thing only. I don't see sex that way. It's a shared experience, and shared doesn't have to involve her anticipating waves of pleasure to be a beautiful thing. It's not as if she doesn't experience pleasure; she can orgasm frequently and very, very strongly via oral. But even then it's something of a rush job and if it takes too long she gets frustrated (too long = more than 5 minutes, and there are a whole lot of women and men on this planet that would apparently think that's kind of awesome, instead of 15 or 20 or even 30 minutes). But she enjoys it immensely. And I derive massive pleasure from it. I feel better when she O's than when I do myself. Which makes me wonder, what is wrong that she doesn't desire the same for me? Which all really feeds into my fear of rejection issues. 

And yes, you pretty much nailed it, "You gave me what you promised and you can have your reward if you want to take it" which comes across as she's willing to complete the transaction, if required.


> Posted by Casual Observer
> So now we're back into the game of her crying, it's my fault that she's crying, why does everything seem to focus on her. That was in the car on the way home. At the MC, I pointed out that my wife is perfectly willing to show affection to the dog and cat and will ADAPT to whatever gets the best response out of them. It was interesting for me to say that because it was something of a revelation. I'd never quite thought about it that way before. That a person puts more into adapting to receive the love of a pet than they do their husband or wife.
> You realize this is DARVO, right? Deny-Attack-Reverse Victim and Offender. She's not the one who has a problem or is at faulth (deny). It's YOU! You make her cry, ya big meanie, and you hurt her (attack). She is the one who cries for an hour and hurts, not you, because big bad Offender (you) put all the focus on the poor defenseless Victim (her). See it? She is trying to use DARVO to avoid personal responsibility. It's a very common tactic, and it doesn't surprise me that she will try every trick in the book to avoid facing her own issues. Remember me saying that?
> 
> It's also very interesting that you compared her ability to adapt for the pets to her ability to adapt for you. Seemingly both are "for love"...and despite her acting to the contrary, she apparently CAN adapt. More on this below.


The DARVO thing sounds a bit too formulaic and removes all of the responsibility from me. I am far from perfect. I do not enjoy this process at all, because it puts my wife in a very bad light and frankly does the same to me as well. Look at all the TAM remarks about what sort of person would put someone through all this? There is an assumption that we would be better off apart. I don't believe it's time to give up. I didn't walk out a year ago this past summer. I hung in there, decided to work on things, and then had the "benefit" of a crisis, discovering something that rather shockingly confirmed what I'd suspected and appears to explain why the passion died the moment we first had sex. So yes, it became a mission, something to work with, something that finally forced us into counseling, both IC and MC. The IC (for me) was at her behest, because things were bothering me so much. She assumed the IC would be telling me this was long in the past and needed to be forgotten. She was rather shocked that my IC would talk with her IC and together decide that MC was very important. 


> She (my wife) thinks all the grief is on her, that hour a week or maybe even every day where she's crying because of what we're going through. She thinks it doesn't affect me as much as it does her. Let me tell you, I'm going through entire DAYS where I can't get it out of my mind. And today might be the worst yet, because, I just recognized what that empty feeling inside me feels like. It feels exactly like the time I broke up with my prior (and only) girlfriend. That empty pit in your stomach that radiates outward. You go about the motions of everyday life trying to act normal and thinking if you can pretend, so will you be. Which actually works to some extent.
> 
> I have to get my head back in the game and have happier thoughts. The saving grace about that awful feeling, that feeling that reminds me of breaking up, is that I also felt that feeling a couple times prior to actually breaking up, thinking it was happening when in fact, at that time, it wasn't.
> 
> I'm praying this is a false feeling.
> I remember having this feeling with my exH. He was abusive, but I loved him and I just could not wrap my mind around the fact that he didn't love me. I kept wondering "How could a man flip the switch on and off? Love me...then treat me so unlovingly? Rage at me and then pick up the phone and talk normally? Abuse me and then act like we were a happy family in public? How was that possible?" He used to tell me he waa "working on his anger but couldn't control it" and then continue to abuse me. And then ONE DAY I realized that he had never once raged at his boss, or one of our customers, or his mom. He COULD control it! He just chose to not control it with me! Know what that meant? He didn't love me.





> Posted by Affaircare
> Now I'm not saying it's that way with your wife. She is continuing with her counseling. She is doing the work/assignments when she's not at counseling. She's making the attempt to try. But I think that lightening strike of realization is similar: HOLY SCHNIKEY! They do have some control...they just choose not to do it with me. Yeah...that's a major realization.


Accountability remains an issue. The MC is aware of that and will be trying to hold her feet to the fire a bit more. It's such an off-and-on thing. She'll work at something for a week or so and then she finds a way to consider it no longer relevant, or it shouldn't take this long.




> Posted by Casual Observer
> Right now, the ball is in my wife's court. I'm going to be kind, but I'm also going to accept nothing less than accountability on her part. If she wants the marriage to work, she has to work at the marriage, not just react to whatever I'm trying to do.





> Posted by Affaircare
> In real life this is an important concept. You really CAN NOT control your wife or her motivation to face her issues. SHE has to want that and pursue it from within herself because SHE wants to be different in her heart. I think it is reasonable to remind you that this IS going to take time. Going to a counselor isn't a couple-times and she's fixed kind of things...it's more like years and years of peeling back the layers of an onion if she sticks with it. But it's also important to have some protections in place for your own self. Maybe have some idea of how long you will be able to hold up. Maybe have some idea of what you are and are not willing to accept. Make sense?


Yes, I'm willing to spend however much time it takes, but it's really hard seeing her resist so much because resistance=pain for her. Will we live long enough to see some sort of epiphany, or will it be some sort of slow change that happens so gradually I don't notice or appreciate it? It totally flies in the face of TAM convention, this idea that something should take a lot of time. How much can she take? How much can I take? 

What am I willing to accept? Good question. If I felt she was spending her free time at figuring out how to get better (and by get better, I don't mean just a more-passionate form of intimacy, but feeling better about herself, not being so negative about everything, and opening up to friends), I could go on forever. But she spends so much time playing card games on her iPad, and I realize it's a value judgment but to me it doesn't seem fair that I'm on this every spare moment I have, and she's trying to put in the bare minimum and find ways to distract herself.

The saddest thing is that the best motivation for her to try is the thought that I might not be there in the future. That's an awful tool. But if I let her not believe that, there is nothing left to make her want to change. I can't force her to change. But I can force her to make a decision.


----------



## Casual Observer

Openminded said:


> She has had more than four decades of this behavior and *if* she does manage to change significantly it could take a long time. This was never going to be an easy process. Especially since she’s doing this only because she doesn’t want a divorce. If she had her way all this would stay locked away forever and she very strongly resents you because you won’t do that any longer. Can she overcome that and eventually be who you want her to be? I would say likely not but I’d be pleased to be wrong. So tell yourself that tomorrow will be a better day and continue forward.


I knew going in that it was going to be worse before things got better. I told her that ahead of time. She did not believe that possible; she thought it would be an easy, fun thing that would take my mind off the issues. She really didn't think the issues would be dealt with, and she what she resents isn't me... she really doesn't resent "me" at all. She resents situations. It is SO bizarre. She can resent 30 of the last 40 years of marital intimacy and not hold it against "me." She depersonalizes the experiences she dislikes. In a way, she wants an a la carte version of me, and that allows her to strip away the troublesome stuff and still see me as something she couldn't live without. 

I had never quite thought of it this way before. The depersonalization of the things she resents, so she can still love her husband. Is this really a thing? It fits into her thing about putting anything she dislikes into a box and trying to keep that box from ever being opened.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

So what happens if it turns out that her sex issue is that she just is not passionately attracted to you? If the issue isn’t her past?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Casual Observer

3Xnocharm said:


> So what happens if it turns out that her sex issue is that she just is not passionately attracted to you? If the issue isn’t her past?
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Then I play the pick-me dance, fail miserably (because nobody wins that dance) and have to consider moving on. But we're in new territory, as far as getting counseling, and I think even she has hope. But it's going to take a while to get rid of her belief that she can wait things out, like she always has. She's beginning to figure that out. That's also new territory.


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## Faithful Wife

Thoughts...

Your wife wants the explosive experience, not the spiritual one that you want.

Can you imagine for a moment that she just can’t and won’t feel spiritual about sex like you do. That even if she works through everything in counseling and can become more vulnerable with you in general, she still just can’t feel the spiritual thing you feel. Imagine she has a lack of neurons wired for that type of sex. And that she can never reach that place that you reach.

Now let’s look at what she is trying to achieve. She wants that horny blood pumping place in herself to find a home in your sex life together. She is telling you this and working herself towards that. She wants to experience very sexual and explosive events. 

Even though this may not include the intimacy and spiritual feelings you want to have, can you just take her there and know that once she gets there, more intimacy will come out of her (hopefully but also likely). 

You are on the right track in thinking of toys and positions, etc. And you know that the oral O for her does work well. If you can just tell her babe, we are going to focus on just your O’s for now, then follow up with after glow after she O’s(but in a sexual way not a spiritual way) for a bit. Then if she’s able to, talk to her about her experience, what worked, what didn’t. In a fun, sexual way.

I’m imagining that if you can help her pull out her own just sexual, not necessarily intimate experiences, and focus on that for a bit, after several of those experiences she may naturally become more intimate.

Or she may not and maybe that’s just not possible for her. Can you love her anyway and just be intimate outside the bedroom? 

I really think this is the key for you here, her desire for the explosive experience for herself. She really wants that and you can give it to her. Maybe make sex half the time only about her O’s and half the time about together O’s. You can always get more O’s on your own and just for a time this might help.


----------



## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> *But she spends so much time playing card games on her iPad*, and I realize it's a value judgment but to me it doesn't seem fair that I'm on this every spare moment I have, and she's trying to put in the bare minimum and find ways to distract herself.
> 
> The saddest thing is that the best motivation for her to try is the thought that I might not be there in the future. That's an awful tool. But if I let her not believe that, there is nothing left to make her want to change. I can't force her to change. But I can force her to make a decision.


This is very similar to my experience... my wife playing cards on her iPad until 1 in the morning on a sex night... watching TV until late at night not to come to bed. Accepting to have sex with me because I threatened her with divorce, only to tell me afterwards it was only to keep the family together. She didn't want any of that. She didn't do it for me, because she didn't love me anymore. And look where we are now. To be honest, I don't understand why you want to transform your wife in someone she's not...


----------



## Blondilocks

" My wife thought I didn't want a vasectomy after our second kid because I was a wimp, so she had her tubes tied. I explained at the time that, if something happened to my family, I'd want a chance to start over. I loved having kids. *What I didn't tell her was that I wasn't all that happy and didn't want to preclude options elsewhere, if we didn't work out."*

Real nice. Here you are, holding your wife's feet to the fire for withholding information from you and you just admitted that you flat out lied to her and had her go through invasive surgery to protect 'your' options.

Sickening.


----------



## Casual Observer

Blondilocks said:


> " My wife thought I didn't want a vasectomy after our second kid because I was a wimp, so she had her tubes tied. I explained at the time that, if something happened to my family, I'd want a chance to start over. I loved having kids. *What I didn't tell her was that I wasn't all that happy and didn't want to preclude options elsewhere, if we didn't work out."*
> 
> Real nice. Here you are, holding your wife's feet to the fire for withholding information from you and you just admitted that you flat out lied to her and had her go through invasive surgery to protect 'your' options.
> 
> Sickening.


I never said I was blameless. I’ve said many times that I let things go that I shouldn’t have. She knew I wasn’t happy with things but I wasn’t at the point of giving her a choice at that time. We had the American Dream after all. Two kids, two dogs, a house and no issues with money then. Just a lack of intimacy and her telling me that if that was so important to me, I should hire a hooker. That wasn’t going to happen but it certainly does get you thinking. I just should have been more open to what I was thinking but I very much recall wondering, at that time, how she thought her attitude could keep things together?

We do a lot of dumb stuff when we’re younger. As we figure it out, later on, you realize time is not on your side.


----------



## Livvie

Faithful Wife said:


> Thoughts...
> 
> Your wife wants the explosive experience, not the spiritual one that you want.
> 
> Can you imagine for a moment that she just can’t and won’t feel spiritual about sex like you do. That even if she works through everything in counseling and can become more vulnerable with you in general, she still just can’t feel the spiritual thing you feel. Imagine she has a lack of neurons wired for that type of sex. And that she can never reach that place that you reach.
> 
> Now let’s look at what she is trying to achieve. She wants that horny blood pumping place in herself to find a home in your sex life together. She is telling you this and working herself towards that. She wants to experience very sexual and explosive events.
> 
> Even though this may not include the intimacy and spiritual feelings you want to have, can you just take her there and know that once she gets there, more intimacy will come out of her (hopefully but also likely).
> 
> You are on the right track in thinking of toys and positions, etc. And you know that the oral O for her does work well. If you can just tell her babe, we are going to focus on just your O’s for now, then follow up with after glow after she O’s(but in a sexual way not a spiritual way) for a bit. Then if she’s able to, talk to her about her experience, what worked, what didn’t. In a fun, sexual way.
> 
> I’m imagining that if you can help her pull out her own just sexual, not necessarily intimate experiences, and focus on that for a bit, after several of those experiences she may naturally become more intimate.
> 
> Or she may not and maybe that’s just not possible for her. Can you love her anyway and just be intimate outside the bedroom?
> 
> I really think this is the key for you here, her desire for the explosive experience for herself. She really wants that and you can give it to her. Maybe make sex half the time only about her O’s and half the time about together O’s. You can always get more O’s on your own and just for a time this might help.


I've read all of COs threads. I do believe he's already doing this.


----------



## Casual Observer

Faithful Wife said:


> Thoughts...
> 
> Your wife wants the explosive experience, not the spiritual one that you want.
> 
> Can you imagine for a moment that she just can’t and won’t feel spiritual about sex like you do. That even if she works through everything in counseling and can become more vulnerable with you in general, she still just can’t feel the spiritual thing you feel. Imagine she has a lack of neurons wired for that type of sex. And that she can never reach that place that you reach.
> 
> Now let’s look at what she is trying to achieve. She wants that horny blood pumping place in herself to find a home in your sex life together. She is telling you this and working herself towards that. She wants to experience very sexual and explosive events.
> 
> Even though this may not include the intimacy and spiritual feelings you want to have, can you just take her there and know that once she gets there, more intimacy will come out of her (hopefully but also likely).
> 
> You are on the right track in thinking of toys and positions, etc. And you know that the oral O for her does work well. If you can just tell her babe, we are going to focus on just your O’s for now, then follow up with after glow after she O’s(but in a sexual way not a spiritual way) for a bit. Then if she’s able to, talk to her about her experience, what worked, what didn’t. In a fun, sexual way.
> 
> I’m imagining that if you can help her pull out her own just sexual, not necessarily intimate experiences, and focus on that for a bit, after several of those experiences she may naturally become more intimate.
> 
> Or she may not and maybe that’s just not possible for her. Can you love her anyway and just be intimate outside the bedroom?
> 
> I really think this is the key for you here, her desire for the explosive experience for herself. She really wants that and you can give it to her. Maybe make sex half the time only about her O’s and half the time about together O’s. You can always get more O’s on your own and just for a time this might help.


For the most part, I'm on it, covering those bases. One of which turned out to be a disaster. Toys. Oh my did she let me have it the other day about why I would get her a particular toy (one of those highly-rated c-suckers), or any toy for that matter, because... not even sure why. She will seem quite interested in such thing beforehand but if you actually follow through, yikes.

OK, here's something else, something I'm sure was buried someplace really deep in one of my earlier threads. She was (and somewhat remains) very religious during her teen years, and for maybe a decade or so later, and felt a ton of guilt about what she was doing. Any thoughts that this has died down were dispelled a couple weeks ago at MC when she (my wife) said disparaging things about my 26 year old's son's sex with his girlfriends. I was a bit surprised to hear her say this. The MC really has not picked up on the guilt angle. Nor has her IC. I think it likely that's coming from the MC soon, given an email the MC sent me and a request for more information.

So when you say she "wants" that horny blood pumping, yes, she does, but she feels badly about wanting it. It's odd, when I think about it, that nobody has brought up "repressed sexuality" as the issue. Because she can be and is very sexual. The equipment works. The equipment works much better, in fact, than when we were married. After an O there is no need for lube; she's awash with it. Which is bizarre in itself for a 62 year old woman. But would not even attempt PIV without lube otherwise, don't worry. 

There are so many layers to this. The MC refers to it as peeling an onion, with so many layers you don't feel like you're making progress, yet, you are. 

As always, thank you for your thoughtful responses. Even the harsh ones.


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## Faithful Wife

Livvie said:


> I've read all of COs threads. I do believe he's already doing this.


I have read them all, too.

I don't think he is doing what I suggested because he is still very much missing the spiritual side and longing for it. I'm asking him to set that aside for now and look at this whole thing differently. And asking for him to assume she may never feel that intimacy and spirituality he is feeling. Currently, he still hopes she will, so he actually wants to give her *both* the explosive and the spiritual experience. I'm asking him to just alter the trajectory....because I really don't think she's ever going to get to the spiritual stuff he wants, however there is a chance she will get there if she can first get her fill of the explosive stuff without having to think about the spiritual stuff. 

I know this would be sad for him to lay aside what he truly wants for a time. But it will also be good for him, because she doesn't operate like he does and the longer he hopes she will, the worse he and she both feel.


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## Faithful Wife

Casual Observer said:


> So when you say she "wants" that horny blood pumping, yes, she does, but she feels badly about wanting it. It's odd, when I think about it, that nobody has brought up "repressed sexuality" as the issue. Because she can be and is very sexual. The equipment works. The equipment works much better, in fact, than when we were married. After an O there is no need for lube; she's awash with it. Which is bizarre in itself for a 62 year old woman. But would not even attempt PIV without lube otherwise, don't worry.


She has told you straight up that she doesn't feel emotional or spiritual about sex at all. That is what I'm getting at. I don't think she is ever going to, and I feel that if you could accept that and work a different angle with it, you might eventually get a bit of intimacy out of her.


----------



## Casual Observer

Faithful Wife said:


> I have read them all, too.
> 
> I don't think he is doing what I suggested because he is still very much missing the spiritual side and longing for it. I'm asking him to set that aside for now and look at this whole thing differently. And asking for him to assume she may never feel that intimacy and spirituality he is feeling. Currently, he still hopes she will, so he actually wants to give her *both* the explosive and the spiritual experience. I'm asking him to just alter the trajectory....because I really don't think she's ever going to get to the spiritual stuff he wants, however there is a chance she will get there if she can first get her fill of the explosive stuff without having to think about the spiritual stuff.
> 
> I know this would be sad for him to lay aside what he truly wants for a time. But it will also be good for him, because she doesn't operate like he does and the longer he hopes she will, the worse he and she both feel.


I'm not hung up on the explosive physical intimacy; that is simply not going to happen. I am hoping for that feeling of connectedness, which she absolutely does experience when we're on a vacation. She is so thrilled and happy that I'm doing something just for her, and looking forward to each coming day. Does that make it almost appear transactional? Or is it all about her state of mind? But knowing what can be makes what isn't so much tougher. 

All that said, I think there remain some major issues that need to be dealt with, issues that "taking time" is probably not going to work for. Specifically her video card game addiction. When I've had issues with that sort of thing, the only thing I found that worked was to go cold turkey and just shut it down. You miss it for a while, and then the desire goes away. Addictions in general are probably like that. Prior to the crisis, when I was frustrated, I'd sometimes go to a porn site. It did not decrease my frustration, but it seemed like the thing to do because I wasn't getting what I desired at home. I have not visited any porn site from the day that crisis hit, over 6 months ago. Not once. I sometimes wonder what it would be like, what I'm missing. But going there just once would open the door to many more visits. I don't think it was especially harmful, it certainly did not affect my abilities. But it was not an appropriate way to replace something that was missing, no matter what it was that was missing. It was like giving up instead of working on the marriage. Would I mind if my wife viewed porn to get her in the mood? Absolutely not. And of course the irony is that her favorite TV shows are non-stop sexual interactions (Grey's Anatomy, for example). Sorry, rambling again!


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## Faithful Wife

CO said: "I'm not hung up on the explosive physical intimacy"...

FW: Yes, I know you aren't. SHE is.


CO said: "that is simply not going to happen"

FW: Why not? I think it is actually the most likely best outcome of all of this (though it may not involve PIV). 


CO said: "I am hoping for that feeling of connectedness..."

FW: Yes, I know you are, which is what I am saying you may need to let go of and realize she just does not feel this way and possibly cannot feel this way. Some people do not feel emotional about sex and she has told you that she does not. This may just be true for her and have nothing to do with her past or any of that. 


CO said: "....which she absolutely does experience when we're on a vacation. She is so thrilled and happy that I'm doing something just for her, and looking forward to each coming day. Does that make it almost appear transactional? Or is it all about her state of mind? But knowing what can be makes what isn't so much tougher."

FW: Being thrilled and happy about a vacation has nothing to do with how she feels about sex.


----------



## Casual Observer

Faithful Wife said:


> CO said: "I'm not hung up on the explosive physical intimacy"...
> 
> FW: Yes, I know you aren't. SHE is.
> 
> 
> CO said: "that is simply not going to happen"
> 
> FW: Why not? I think it is actually the most likely best outcome of all of this (though it may not involve PIV). It's not going to happen because she's not open to the idea of it happening. When it does happen, it happens. That's her attitude. She thinks it's strange that it (an o through oral) happens at all. And she thinks it happens rarely (once or twice a month) when the reality is that it's twice a week, easily. She is resolute on minimizing her sexuality. Thus the question of sexual repression due to guilt. As well as the fact that an o through oral does not cross the line of immorality she defined while growing up. Guess you could say she was playing the extremely-technical virgin game. And still does?
> 
> 
> CO said: "I am hoping for that feeling of connectedness..."
> 
> FW: Yes, I know you are, which is what I am saying you may need to let go of and realize she just does not feel this way and possibly cannot feel this way. Some people do not feel emotional about sex and she has told you that she does not. This may just be true for her and have nothing to do with her past or any of that. Could very well be true.
> 
> 
> CO said: "....which she absolutely does experience when we're on a vacation. She is so thrilled and happy that I'm doing something just for her, and looking forward to each coming day. Does that make it almost appear transactional? Or is it all about her state of mind? But knowing what can be makes what isn't so much tougher."
> 
> FW: Being thrilled and happy about a vacation has nothing to do with how she feels about sex. Then why does she change her colors on vacation? Sex becomes that connected thing I desire when on vacation. She becomes quite a different person. Outwardly she appears to feel VERY different about connectedness, the spiritual side of intimacy, when on vacation. I guess I didn't make that clear. Looking at my quote that's obvious. So I will restate. On vacation, she becomes a different person, she approaches sex completely differently, and it's the only time she actually looks forward to things. The looking forward to things, anticipation, that really does seem to be a key thing. It happens so rarely. And if you're not looking forward to intimacy, even if you enjoy it at the time, if there's no foreplay in your mind, you're setting everything up pretty badly.


----------



## Blondilocks

Your wife really, really likes vacations. You feel she connects with you while on vacation. Could this have anything to do with the fact that your two adult children are still living at home? And, your wife isn't happy about that? Do your kids go on vacation with you?

Your wife may have been looking forward to a natural progression of kids leaving the nest and the next phase of her life beginning. At this point, it's the same old grind it has been since they were born. Not much to look forward to nor get excited about.

Do your kids have any plans to be on their own?


----------



## Casual Observer

Blondilocks said:


> Your wife really, really likes vacations. You feel she connects with you while on vacation. Could this have anything to do with the fact that your two adult children are still living at home? And, your wife isn't happy about that? Do your kids go on vacation with you?
> 
> Your wife may have been looking forward to a natural progression of kids leaving the nest and the next phase of her life beginning. At this point, it's the same old grind it has been since they were born. Not much to look forward to nor get excited about.
> 
> Do your kids have any plans to be on their own?


Thanks for addressing the OTHER elephant in the closet. My wife did not sign up for having adult kids still living at home. Unfortunately we live in an extraordinarily-expensive area to live, my kids didn't go into high-tech (they actually work in the family biz, which they'll be taking over down the road), and my S26 has epilepsy so his options are somewhat limited. Daughter is 31. So not "kids" but grown adults. She has a tough time allowing them to lead their own lives. Actually, just S26, since the D31 is perfectly willing to become that woman with cats is she ever does leave. S26 tries to have normal relationships with women (but it's tough since he can't drive). D31 seemingly has no interest in dating. 

So yes, my wife enjoys getting away from that, and no, the kids don't come with us. The subject of the kids comes up in MC, and it was interesting the other day to hear my wife being critical of Kevin's dating, and Kevin is far more into long-term relationships and respect for his partner than my wife was when she was dating. It's quite bizarre, and points to the degree of guilt my wife still feels about sexuality. So unfortunately, she gets a constant reminder of that.

The vacations we go on are 100% for her. Not the type of vacation I would do myself; I'd be into something quite physically demanding. I do a ton of research figuring out where to take her each year, always in the November/December time frame. Regarding how it ties into the issues in her marriage, I don't believe that things are hopeless if she can take responsive sexuality to an extreme on a vacation, but so little at home. As far as I know, classic LD isn't something where you can flip a switch and become, at the very least, MD and possibly even HD in a predictable fashion. I think a lot of it is not just getting away from the house but also, when everything is new and exciting, she is better able to forget the things that hold her back intimacy-wise. 

More in the next post. Thank you. It may seem like I don't pay attention to the obvious, that I don't read what you and others write and take it to heart. I do.


----------



## Casual Observer

*The guilt thing- religious upbringing*

I don't think I've made it clear enough the extent to which my wife is consumed with guilt about her past and sex. You can deal with that either by trying to put her in a place where she forgets about the guilt and let's herself enjoy life, or you can try and deal with the guilt. The vacations my wife loves are clearly successful at the first option. The problem is, it's not sustainable. The other problem is that it's a constant reminder of how things could be. You've wondered why this all eats at me so much, why I can't just let her be who she is and get used to it or leave. This is why. There is this other side of her that's stunningly awesome. That's what gives me some hope. If we can deal with the guilt, which is all from her past, not her present, maybe I can get that stunningly awesome woman back.

We are Christians, and we believe the message. But her own "Christian" upbringing seriously messed her up. The whole thing about your self-destruction if you have sex outside of marriage, the imagery around removing the petals from the flower, or creating a paper heart, which is your own, and you pass it down a line of young women with each one tearing off a piece of it, each piece representing something you gave up to someone before marriage, and at the end you have nothing left for your husband. That's devastating stuff for the young woman who "fails." And once you "fail" you no longer feel like you have the love of God with you. You start leading a dual life, going to Church, denying who you are/what you do to your friends, people you've known for ages. So you hang out with the "bad boys" outside of Church, because they don't have that conflict and it's a world you can keep separate because they're not in your Church group of friends.

This is how the lies became such a comfortable part of her behavior. She didn't feel she had a choice. If she didn't lie, she would lose the 10 or so years she'd been at the same Church. She would be ostracized. She would be physically cast aside from her family (she'd pretty much already been emotionally cast aside, because it's not like she could hide the fact she was coming in at 2:30am on a regular basis). 

And then... you're desperately looking for that way out. You want to get married, fast, because you don't want to continue leading that double life. Once married, that other life is discarded, but the memories, even if you try to compartmentalize and put into a box and lock it away, those memories scarred you, badly. I still believe that can be worked on. And yes, I have a difficult time sometimes, knowing how badly she f'ed up with me, by not telling me what she was going through. That she would marry someone without confiding in that person about the things that bothered her, that kept her up at night, that caused her passion to do a complete 180 the very day we first had sex... yeah, it's kind of awful thinking about what that did to us for 40+ years. 

The Church really needs to come up with a less-devastating way of dealing with young women and sex. As a guy, I didn't get all those mixed messages. My role was to be responsible and look out for my partner's best interests, not just my own.


----------



## JustTheWife

*Re: The guilt thing- religious upbringing*



Casual Observer said:


> I don't think I've made it clear enough the extent to which my wife is consumed with guilt about her past and sex. You can deal with that either by trying to put her in a place where she forgets about the guilt and let's herself enjoy life, or you can try and deal with the guilt. The vacations my wife loves are clearly successful at the first option. The problem is, it's not sustainable. The other problem is that it's a constant reminder of how things could be. You've wondered why this all eats at me so much, why I can't just let her be who she is and get used to it or leave. This is why. There is this other side of her that's stunningly awesome. That's what gives me some hope. If we can deal with the guilt, which is all from her past, not her present, maybe I can get that stunningly awesome woman back.
> 
> We are Christians, and we believe the message. But her own "Christian" upbringing seriously messed her up. The whole thing about your self-destruction if you have sex outside of marriage, the imagery around removing the petals from the flower, or creating a paper heart, which is your own, and you pass it down a line of young women with each one tearing off a piece of it, each piece representing something you gave up to someone before marriage, and at the end you have nothing left for your husband. That's devastating stuff for the young woman who "fails." And once you "fail" you no longer feel like you have the love of God with you. You start leading a dual life, going to Church, denying who you are/what you do to your friends, people you've known for ages. So you hang out with the "bad boys" outside of Church, because they don't have that conflict and it's a world you can keep separate because they're not in your Church group of friends.
> 
> This is how the lies became such a comfortable part of her behavior. She didn't feel she had a choice. If she didn't lie, she would lose the 10 or so years she'd been at the same Church. She would be ostracized. She would be physically cast aside from her family (she'd pretty much already been emotionally cast aside, because it's not like she could hide the fact she was coming in at 2:30am on a regular basis).
> 
> And then... you're desperately looking for that way out. You want to get married, fast, because you don't want to continue leading that double life. Once married, that other life is discarded, but the memories, even if you try to compartmentalize and put into a box and lock it away, those memories scarred you, badly. I still believe that can be worked on. And yes, I have a difficult time sometimes, knowing how badly she f'ed up with me, by not telling me what she was going through. That she would marry someone without confiding in that person about the things that bothered her, that kept her up at night, that caused her passion to do a complete 180 the very day we first had sex... yeah, it's kind of awful thinking about what that did to us for 40+ years.
> 
> The Church really needs to come up with a less-devastating way of dealing with young women and sex. As a guy, I didn't get all those mixed messages. My role was to be responsible and look out for my partner's best interests, not just my own.


Wow. I could really relate to this post. I grew up in a very strict Christian home. Very strict. My husband is very Christian too. I remember all that stuff that you mentioned. The heart with pieces ripped off until nothing is left of you. The flower destroyed by each guy who has you (so symbolic). Something about a piece of candy getting handled by so many people and it being disgusting after being touched by so many people. Just throw it in the trash because it's dirty and disgusting after being touched by other people. There were other "lessons" too. All to teach you that you're worthless, filthy and disgusting if you have sex. Girls who had sex before marriage were called "wh...s" in these frequent "teachings". Nothing subtle about it.

Then I started to rebel and I hated myself so I became promiscuous. Like I wanted to destroy myself. I felt worthless anyway so every guy just like confirmed my worthlessness according to what was beaten in my head by the this church/ministry. But at the same time I felt a HUGE amount of guilt both for just doing it and also for getting physical pleasure out of it. I started to mentally break down in a way and on some level, I felt better when guys treated me badly. it was like a bad spiral downward. Guilt, physical pleasure and desire, self destruction, humiliation. Rinse and repeat over and over again. 

I'm married and my husband doesn't know about my past. We both follow Christ.


----------



## Casual Observer

*Re: The guilt thing- religious upbringing*



JustTheWife said:


> Wow. I could really relate to this post. I grew up in a very strict Christian home. Very strict. My husband is very Christian too. I remember all that stuff that you mentioned. The heart with pieces ripped off until nothing is left of you. The flower destroyed by each guy who has you (so symbolic). Something about a piece of candy getting handled by so many people and it being disgusting after being touched by so many people. Just throw it in the trash because it's dirty and disgusting after being touched by other people. There were other "lessons" too. All to teach you that you're worthless, filthy and disgusting if you have sex. Girls who had sex before marriage were called "wh...s" in these frequent "teachings". Nothing subtle about it.
> 
> Then I started to rebel and I hated myself so I became promiscuous. Like I wanted to destroy myself. I felt worthless anyway so every guy just like confirmed my worthlessness according to what was beaten in my head by the this church/ministry. But at the same time I felt a HUGE amount of guilt both for just doing it and also for getting physical pleasure out of it. I started to mentally break down in a way and on some level, I felt better when guys treated me badly. it was like a bad spiral downward. Guilt, physical pleasure and desire, self destruction, humiliation. Rinse and repeat over and over again.
> 
> I'm married and my husband doesn't know about my past. We both follow Christ.


Know that you are not alone; a woman wrote her doctoral thesis on the experiences that you and my wife have had. You will likely find a lot of yourself in these pages- https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f1de/48c5f9a4b01834666e967a5cf4f8f08d5407.pdf

I pray that someday you can find the lasting peace of mind that comes from finally being open about such things with your husband.


----------



## Sfort

Based on what I've read, if I were your wife, I'd be ending the relationship immediately. You're not perfect, but you want her to throw herself on the sword for things she's done in the past. If you've given her a life sentence, then move on. You're making both of you miserable (unless you get some pleasure out of torturing her.) 

She's not as attracted to you as you are to her. You're not going to be able to force it.


----------



## Casual Observer

Sfort said:


> Based on what I've read, if I were your wife, I'd be ending the relationship immediately. You're not perfect, but you want her to throw herself on the sword for things she's done in the past. If you've given her a life sentence, then move on. You're making both of you miserable (unless you get some pleasure out of torturing her.)
> 
> She's not as attracted to you as you are to her. You're not going to be able to force it.


I don't think I'm representing my wife's viewpoint very well. Over the past 6 months she's made, according to her, not just me, great progress. She's suffered clinical (documented) depression for years, and until recently, has only had "professionals" who handed out pills and never, ever, asked her questions, just let her talk, and she'd only tell them what she was comfortable telling them, and y'know, for some reason, that just didn't work. Beginning 5 months ago, that changed. My (first time ever for me) IC and her (new) IC got together and and re-wrote the script for her. By the way, it was at my wife's insistence that I go in for IC. A good call. No more rug-sweeping; time to get to the reasons for her depression. 

So she now has three professionals actively dealing with the reason for her depression (her IC, her shrink and the MC) and, for the first time in ages, has a sense that she can exert some control in her life. She can change her environment by changing how she thinks about things. 

Putting stuff up here essentially in real-time is tough, because this is a story that, as many have said, can play out over years, not weeks and months. When I post about taking two steps backward for one step forward, that's a very tiny part of the overall journey, but easy to focus on it. There's also the issue that the problems are what come to mind first, more so than the successes. Because the problem, overall, is of a much bigger magnitude than the incremental improvements. 

So yes, I have hope in the process, she believes she is improving, I believe she is improving, and she does understand that we're where we are not because of anything that happened at one point in time, way back when or now. But rather something that began ages ago and continued to affect her greatly because she chose, repeatedly, for many, many years, to actively lie about it to me (for several decades, not just back then). She knew all along the reason that things went south, but thought it a better idea to try and hide it than deal with it. 

Now? For the first time in her life, she realizes she is not alone. There are thousands, tens of thousands, maybe millions of women just like her, that were raised (and still are) Christian, that had feelings greatly at odds with the teachings of their church, that had no friends in their church they could talk to about sexuality without being cast out. So what happens. They find the bad boys who don't attend their church, who don't give an option to question what's going on because their values are so different. The experience becomes all about the experience, as it were. Guilt builds up rapidly. There is a desire to escape but they don't feel they're good enough for a nice guy who shares their religious values. They don't want to confront their own sexuality because that would be confronting God as well. Once married, they believe they'll be "normal."

But it doesn't work that way. Many here talk about the damage being done to my wife while we deal with this. Few consider what 42 years of this has done to our "happy" married life. There is a chance here to deal with it, and re-marry a woman with known baggage, a woman whose baggage I can greatly lessen the load of. Declared baggage can be handled with care and learned from. Undeclared baggage... maybe it's like packing china inadequately because it's too painful to pay the price of properly packing & shipping it. And what happens. It ends up breaking. And you've got a whole lot of pieces to try and put together, or you just throw it away, pretending it was never there. Probably a bad analogy.

But she's seeing hope that she can finally understand her depression and be happier. Odd thing, having depression that makes you pretend you have a happy marriage. Odd thing, believing success at marriage is the number of years you've stayed married, and deriding those who didn't make it this far (one of her past favorite things to do). 

So today, she no longer has an overall 24hrs/day feeling of being depressed. It's much more focused. It might be centered on me, or the marriage in general. Which sounds bad, right? Except that it also creates hope. Because it's no longer this nebulous dark cloud surrounding everything about her. She believes, I truly believe she believes, that her depression comes from the guilt she's carried all these years, the lies she's had to tell. There is beginning to be a sign of relief that she can now talk about things, and do so with a husband who has no issue at all with what went on immediately prior to her meeting me. The issue is that I never had a way of helping her deal with it, when it caused so much trouble with her attempts at being intimate with me.


----------



## JustTheWife

*Re: The guilt thing- religious upbringing*



Casual Observer said:


> Know that you are not alone; a woman wrote her doctoral thesis on the experiences that you and my wife have had. You will likely find a lot of yourself in these pages- https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f1de/48c5f9a4b01834666e967a5cf4f8f08d5407.pdf
> 
> I pray that someday you can find the lasting peace of mind that comes from finally being open about such things with your husband.


Thank you so much. I read every single word of that thesis and I can relate to so much of it that I'm almost speechless. I really am. I am going to give it a couple of days and read it all again.

I also pray for you and your family to get through this. Love and hugs.


----------



## Casual Observer

*Re: The guilt thing- religious upbringing*



JustTheWife said:


> Thank you so much. I read every single word of that thesis and I can relate to so much of it that I'm almost speechless. I really am. I am going to give it a couple of days and read it all again.
> 
> I also pray for you and your family to get through this. Love and hugs.


I suggested my wife read it; she asked that I read the relevant sections to her. She, too, was almost speechless. She began actively searching through her past to see where things lined up, and why. She understood that she was not alone, and that while she couldn't absolve herself completely from responsibility for choices she made, she also understood that she was following a path that could have been different had things been better at home, better at church.

She had not previously tied her religious upbringing into how things played out. Something that really stood out was how, the morning of/after the night where things happened, she was almost literally dragged to church by her dad. She's 18 at the time, got in at 2:30am, and without enough sleep is brought to church where inevitably she's going to feel conflicted, to say the least, about what had gone on the night before. And then the guy disappeared on her for three days. Let's just find a way to maximize guilt and angst, right?

On a possibly-positive note, you may be getting to see how things might play out for yourself down the road, should you come to a time where you either want to or have to deal with the things you haven't told your husband. You might not have issues with your relationship because of what's been held back though. And just because I'm firmly in the camp of divulging/dealing/disposing, that's for me, and your situation may be different. I don't think our wives or husbands are owed a detailed viewing of our past, unless it had been asked for. And if it had, it's their decision whether to either

A: Lie & omit
B: Divulge & discuss
C: Break off the relationship because it's an unreasonable request

I do not *not* want this discussion to cause you any pain. But reading that thesis may give you hope that not only are you not alone, but that you can do well. Today and for the future.


----------



## Casual Observer

*Why there's hope*

Asked my wife how the individual visit with "our" therapist went.

"She thinks we have a strong marriage with a few issues and kinks. But most people do and just don't get help soon enough or not at all. Just like me avoiding it all those years. Stupid on mhy part!!!"

I'd say that's not a wife to be given up on. Not a wife who is being hacked to death by a process inflicted upon her by her husband. A wife that does actually love her husband very, very much.


----------



## In Absentia

If the guilt causing her depression is rooted in her faith, how are you going to resolve her depression if she is still "trapped" in her faith, causing the guilt? This is a genuine question by someone who was raised Catholic (so, I have experienced the religion-induced guilt) and is agnostic now...

Apologies if it's a stupid question.


----------



## JustTheWife

*Re: The guilt thing- religious upbringing*



Casual Observer said:


> I suggested my wife read it; she asked that I read the relevant sections to her. She, too, was almost speechless. She began actively searching through her past to see where things lined up, and why. She understood that she was not alone, and that while she couldn't absolve herself completely from responsibility for choices she made, she also understood that she was following a path that could have been different had things been better at home, better at church.
> 
> She had not previously tied her religious upbringing into how things played out. Something that really stood out was how, the morning of/after the night where things happened, she was almost literally dragged to church by her dad. She's 18 at the time, got in at 2:30am, and without enough sleep is brought to church where inevitably she's going to feel conflicted, to say the least, about what had gone on the night before. And then the guy disappeared on her for three days. Let's just find a way to maximize guilt and angst, right?
> 
> On a possibly-positive note, you may be getting to see how things might play out for yourself down the road, should you come to a time where you either want to or have to deal with the things you haven't told your husband. You might not have issues with your relationship because of what's been held back though. And just because I'm firmly in the camp of divulging/dealing/disposing, that's for me, and your situation may be different. I don't think our wives or husbands are owed a detailed viewing of our past, unless it had been asked for. And if it had, it's their decision whether to either
> 
> A: Lie & omit
> B: Divulge & discuss
> C: Break off the relationship because it's an unreasonable request
> 
> I do not *not* want this discussion to cause you any pain. But reading that thesis may give you hope that not only are you not alone, but that you can do well. Today and for the future.


It's amazing to know that I'm not alone with this. OMG, the story you told about going to church or some ministry after one of those nights. I know that so well. That WAS my life through all of this. Double life. Sitting there like i was a good girl after all that.

This is really hard to explain but I HATED myself and felt so guilty for failing to find the spiritual nirvana or ecstasy in religion. The very powerful spiritual experience. Like feeling God enter you and feeling His power. I never got that from religion and everyone around talks about how amazing it is. 

I hated myself even more when I felt that power over me through sex with men and orgasms.

Anyway, I found some of that come out in the thesis that you shared. Like the very confused feelings intermingling religion with sex.

Part of the problem with telling my husband about my past is that he was also taught over and over that girls who do that are dirty. I mean some of those ministry groups that i was in when I was young had boys in them and they were taught the same thing. Like that paper said, it was always the girls who were taught they were dirtied by sex but the boys were taught the same thing with the flower or paper heart or piece of candy that everyone touches. Nobody wants a girl who's been touched by others. That was also drilled into his head from the start.


----------



## Casual Observer

In Absentia said:


> If the guilt causing her depression is rooted in her faith, how are you going to resolve her depression if she is still "trapped" in her faith, causing the guilt? This is a genuine question by someone who was raised Catholic (so, I have experienced the religion-induced guilt) and is agnostic now...
> 
> Apologies if it's a stupid question.


I would not suggest she is "trapped" in her faith, but rather suffered from a misunderstanding of what it means to be faithful. It's interesting to watch her progress with this. She's spent some time researching whether in fact premarital sex is a sin in the first place. Personally, I do believe there's enough in scripture to suggest that it is wrong, but not enough to be teaching a doctrine that the world is binary. But the very fact that she's re-examining the past with hopes of feeling better about herself today... I think that's a pretty big deal, and something she's not done previously. 

Please do not interpret what I've written as a treatise against religion and the Christian faith in particular. That's not my intent. She got messed up because her family didn't support her and the binary teachings of the church. She had no outlet for her feeling of being wanted *and* her libido. She had no friends in church she could confide in, and her only adult "peer" was a rather bitter woman maybe 15 years older who had told her that she should break up with me because we were having sex. So... yeah... lots of guilt. 

That link I provided to @JustTheWife ... you ought to read it. Pretty amazing stuff.


----------



## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> I would not suggest she is "trapped" in her faith, but rather suffered from a misunderstanding of what it means to be faithful. It's interesting to watch her progress with this. She's spent some time researching whether in fact premarital sex is a sin in the first place. Personally, I do believe there's enough in scripture to suggest that it is wrong, but not enough to be teaching a doctrine that the world is binary. But the very fact that she's re-examining the past with hopes of feeling better about herself today... I think that's a pretty big deal, and something she's not done previously.


I put "trapped" in inverted commas on purpose... :smile2: As far as I remember 0, premarital sex is a no no in any Christian faith. And she is very religious. I don't really see how she can forget her big premarital sin. Hence my question... how can she "heal" when she is tightly bound to her faith? Will she able to make amends and forgive herself?


----------



## Blondilocks

"... but I HATED myself and felt so guilty for failing to find the spiritual nirvana or ecstasy in religion. The very powerful spiritual experience. Like feeling God enter you and feeling His power. *I never got that from religion and everyone around talks about how amazing it is."*

Yeah, well, do you believe everyone on Facebook are leading amazing lives and having amazing vacations, etc? If they hadn't had a religious experience, do you think they would admit it? They want to be part of the 'in' crowd.

Besides, it makes me wonder what they were smoking or how long they had fasted when they had this 'experience'. 

Not saying some people haven't felt the 'spirit'. 

In short, your parents let you down. They and the church used fear and shame to try to rein in teen pregnancy.


----------



## Blondilocks

@Anon Pink, if you're around, your input on sex would greatly help some ladies. I know you have been very helpful to others in educating them.


----------



## Affaircare

In Absentia said:


> I put "trapped" in inverted commas on purpose... :smile2: As far as I remember 0, premarital sex is a no no in any Christian faith. And she is very religious. I don't really see how she can forget her big premarital sin. Hence my question... how can she "heal" when she is tightly bound to her faith? Will she able to make amends and forgive herself?


 @In Absentia, 

I was raised as a WELS Lutheran and then a Baptist, and as a child I also got a lot of the judmental, shaming version of sexuality. I was physically abused by my parents and raped in college...so I had a good chance for my personal views of my sexuality to go awry. And yet I've stayed in a Christian faith because I realized something: we all have sinned. Sins are not "big" and "small"--sin is sin, and part of my faith is that if you truly repent you are forgiven. To me, truly repent means 1) stop doing the wrong thing (sorrow in your heart that you did it), and 2) start doing the right thing. 

So if a young lady lied...she sinned. How does she continue being a Christian? She repents and is forgiven. A young lady swore...she sinned. She would also repent and be forgiven. A young lady shoplifted...she sinned. She would also repent and be forgiven. A young lady had premarital sex? She would also repent and be forgiven. 

Long story short, I personally believe the attitude of the church toward sex is rooted in making long-term, monogamous, stable homes and families in which we can raise our children...AND is a way to make sexuality a sacred act and not hedonistic act. But I think the way to achieve these things is through teaching our children and being an example in our own lives--not shaming and shouting a bunch of legalistic rules.


----------



## In Absentia

Affaircare said:


> So if a young lady lied...she sinned. How does she continue being a Christian? She repents and is forgiven. A young lady swore...she sinned. She would also repent and be forgiven. A young lady shoplifted...she sinned. She would also repent and be forgiven. A young lady had premarital sex? She would also repent and be forgiven.



It seems to be that the OP's wife is able to repent and be forgiven but unable to forgive herself...


----------



## Affaircare

In Absentia said:


> It seems to be that the OP's wife is able to repent and be forgiven but unable to forgive herself...


Yeah maybe so. I was blessed in that I took a couple years in college and completely broke away from "my parents' religion" and tried many denominations and other spiritualities to figure out what I personally believed MYSELF -- inside my own inner being. I didn't want to just live by the judgmental voice of my mom in my head or trying to please some pastor or parent. I wanted to live as I believed--you know?

So my guess is that part of @Casual Observer 's wife's journey may be to figure out her own spirituality and her own beliefs...figure out her own sexuality and how her beliefs relate to her sexuality...and figure out how to actively forgive herself. 

0


----------



## Casual Observer

In Absentia said:


> I put "trapped" in inverted commas on purpose... :smile2: As far as I remember 0, premarital sex is a no no in any Christian faith. And she is very religious. I don't really see how she can forget her big premarital sin. Hence my question... how can she "heal" when she is tightly bound to her faith? Will she able to make amends and forgive herself?


The biggest problem isn't how to forgive yourself. The biggest problem is accepting that you need to. And accepting that means facing the past and admitting you had a problem that was bigger than you could handle. You made mistakes that you wanted to hide from God and you've built a pretty good shell over the years, trying to hide that. Talking about it now is exposing your most-vulnerable self to God. Doing so means admitting that you were hiding from God. Few would welcome that opportunity. Of course, that's the saddest part of all, because God does grant forgiveness and grace, if you ask.



Affaircare said:


> @In Absentia,
> 
> I was raised as a WELS Lutheran and then a Baptist, and as a child I also got a lot of the judmental, shaming version of sexuality. I was physically abused by my parents and raped in college...so I had a good chance for my personal views of my sexuality to go awry. And yet I've stayed in a Christian faith because I realized something: we all have sinned. Sins are not "big" and "small"--sin is sin, and part of my faith is that if you truly repent you are forgiven. To me, truly repent means 1) stop doing the wrong thing (sorrow in your heart that you did it), and 2) start doing the right thing.
> 
> So if a young lady lied...she sinned. How does she continue being a Christian? She repents and is forgiven. A young lady swore...she sinned. She would also repent and be forgiven. A young lady shoplifted...she sinned. She would also repent and be forgiven. A young lady had premarital sex? She would also repent and be forgiven.
> 
> Long story short, I personally believe the attitude of the church toward sex is rooted in making long-term, monogamous, stable homes and families in which we can raise our children...AND is a way to make sexuality a sacred act and not hedonistic act. But I think the way to achieve these things is through teaching our children and being an example in our own lives--not shaming and shouting a bunch of legalistic rules.


But in your own words,to be truly repentant means to stop doing the wrong thing. And start doing the right thing. Where does that put the young Christian woman who continues to have premarital sex? 



In Absentia said:


> It seems to be that the OP's wife is able to repent and be forgiven but unable to forgive herself...


More correctly, she is allowed forgiveness, it doesn't happen automatically. She has to ask, which means she has to admit to whatever it is that requires forgiveness. I don't think you can do so and still not forgive yourself. If you truly accept God's grace, forgiving yourself comes through that. It's a bit circular. But in a nutshell it requires more humility than many have to spare. Rug sweeping seems so much easier. Lots of rug sweeping among believers in the Church.



Affaircare said:


> Yeah maybe so. I was blessed in that I took a couple years in college and completely broke away from "my parents' religion" and tried many denominations and other spiritualities to figure out what I personally believed MYSELF -- inside my own inner being. I didn't want to just live by the judgmental voice of my mom in my head or trying to please some pastor or parent. I wanted to live as I believed--you know?
> 
> So my guess is that part of @Casual Observer 's wife's journey may be to figure out her own spirituality and her own beliefs...figure out her own sexuality and how her beliefs relate to her sexuality...and figure out how to actively forgive herself.
> 
> 0


Not just her spirituality and sexuality now, but she also has to understand what it was then, for context. You can't just say, oh, I was a bad person then, I'm a good person now, so I'm good. Working on that. 

I think, what we're doing *to* young women, is awful. We're putting them into a situation in which they may feel they are best-served to live a double life and actively lie about, well, both parts. Does anyone believe those "skills" are simply dropped after they settle down and get married or whatever their path in life will be?


----------



## Affaircare

Casual Observer said:


> ... But in your own words,to be truly repentant means to stop doing the wrong thing. And start doing the right thing. Where does that put the young Christian woman who continues to have premarital sex?


Well, this has a two-fold answer for me--not sure where she is. 1) The young Christian woman has to decide if she truly believes within herself that sexual expression before marriage is sin. Is it "all sexual expression" or "intercourse"? Etc. I would say this takes some introspection and some study, and once she figures out what she really and truly believes, then 2) Act on that belief. 

For example, I believe that intercourse before marriage that could lead to a child is not "sin" but rather "wise to be avoided" so that a single mom isn't raising a child by herself! To take even a step back, "sin" means the kind of action/behavior that is a moral and ethical lapse, causing a distancing of the relationship between God and the person. I also believe it's not MY JOB to decide what is and is not a sin for another person--that's between them and God! 

I believe God created US and our sexuality, but we have a chance to make sex a sacred joining or make it a carnal craving or a hedonistic desire. Our sexuality is supposed to be used/exercised, and it's supposed to be a physical, emotional, and spiritual uniting of two committed beings. So if I were a young lady having sex with uncommitted others, that would go against my inner self and I'd feel in conflict -- doing something I know is not me. So I would stop doing that. 

Make sense? 

For your wife, who knows what she actually deeply believes? And I don't mean what she's been told, or what her parents believe--I mean in her inner being what SHE believes. Whatever that may or may not be, she looks at it and at herself and just gets those to align. Do what she believes is right--stop doing what she believes is wrong. 



> More correctly, she is allowed forgiveness, it doesn't happen automatically. She has to ask, which means she has to admit to whatever it is that requires forgiveness. I don't think you can do so and still not forgive yourself. If you truly accept God's grace, forgiving yourself comes through that. It's a bit circular. But in a nutshell it requires more humility than many have to spare. Rug sweeping seems so much easier. Lots of rug sweeping among believers in the Church.


Yeah--I quoted this (even though it wasn't directed at me) because this is a HUGE life lesson. In real life, to attain forgiveness and really let yourself forgive yourself, you also have to honestly look at yourself and admit to yourself what you've done! You have to name it by name, pull it out of the dark and put it squarely in the light, and humbly confess that you were wrong. A TON of people just can not do that. I mean...they have a mental illness or an issue that prevents them from doing it! 

To attain forgiveness for the adultery I committed (I had an online affair), I had to call it what it was--not some nice euphamism like "a fling", admit to myself that I had committed it and it was wrong, admit to those who were affected what I had done and ask for forgiveness, and then STOP committing adultery and learn how to be faithful. But doing all that takes a lot of humility and few are able to bend that knee.



> Not just her spirituality and sexuality now, but she also has to understand what it was then, for context. You can't just say, oh, I was a bad person then, I'm a good person now, so I'm good. Working on that.


Yeah, here's the thing "I'm a good person now so I don't need to look at what I did then...so I'll just pretend it didn't happen" and thus just not realizing that the things that are the foundations from the past can continue into the present and affect the present. It's like building a home on a foundation of a house of cards--eventually one card will bend and fail, and the foundation shifts...AND THE WHOLE HOUSE SHIFTS. The attitudes of the past, if not dealt with, will be the building blocks of the attitudes of the present. ETC. 

The main reason I'm encouraged by the process you and your wife are going through, is that you are examining all this...some together, and some just by her. Yeah, it's a super long process, but it's not being avoided--it's being looked at slowly and that is okay. I think if she can admit to herself exactly who she was and what she did and how she acted in the past, she can learn that she is worthy of forgiveness, forgive herself, examine her own beliefs, and bring her sexual self into alignment with her own beliefs and her inner self.


----------



## Casual Observer

Affaircare said:


> Yeah, here's the thing "I'm a good person now so I don't need to look at what I did then...so I'll just pretend it didn't happen" and thus just not realizing that the things that are the foundations from the past can continue into the present and affect the present. It's like building a home on a foundation of a house of cards--eventually one card will bend and fail, and the foundation shifts...AND THE WHOLE HOUSE SHIFTS. The attitudes of the past, if not dealt with, will be the building blocks of the attitudes of the present. ETC.
> 
> The main reason I'm encouraged by the process you and your wife are going through, is that you are examining all this...some together, and some just by her. Yeah, it's a super long process, but it's not being avoided--it's being looked at slowly and that is okay. I think if she can admit to herself exactly who she was and what she did and how she acted in the past, she can learn that she is worthy of forgiveness, forgive herself, examine her own beliefs, and bring her sexual self into alignment with her own beliefs and her inner self.


It will be a tough road for awhile, as her attitude and what she believes happened remain a moving target. One moment she remembers absolutely nothing about the situation, another moment she's claiming there's zero chance she did anything significant with the guy, and yet when she's discussing things with her therapist, the conversation turns to whether she believes she was raped. Logic goes out the window. Specifically the logic that says, if nothing much happened, how could it have become such a traumatic event in her life?

I did send an email to the MC (whom she saw separately yesterday, as per the MC's request), when I found out about the MC again looking into the possibility that she'd been raped, and telling her I didn't see that as likely. I explained how different things were back then as well; that "consent" meant something entirely different than it does now. Today, if a woman says yes and then changes her mind to no, the only thing that matters is that no. Back then, she might say no 19 times but guys would keep going until she'd give in and say ok. That was somehow acceptable. Wear the poor woman down. Make her feel guilty for leading him on. It could be that the MC was trying to give her a way out, but my wife isn't that dishonest, and this guy ended up being a fairly well-known lawyer still in our community. He manipulated her, he played her, but I think she was as excited and curious as he was. Until she wasn't.

But she does feel she's gradually getting to a better place and dealing with things she should have long ago. She believes she can display passion in a way that connects with me. The MC is doing a good job of explaining how what matters isn't what she thinks she's offering me, but, if it's a gift of intimacy, how it's perceived by me. Which sounds rather selfish but it's really what the 5 Love Languages is all about.


----------



## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> More correctly, she is allowed forgiveness, it doesn't happen automatically. She has to ask, which means she has to admit to whatever it is that requires forgiveness. I don't think you can do so and still not forgive yourself. If you truly accept God's grace, forgiving yourself comes through that. It's a bit circular. But in a nutshell it requires more humility than many have to spare. Rug sweeping seems so much easier. Lots of rug sweeping among believers in the Church.


If forgiveness has been allowed and she is forgiven, what's the problem? Her guilt? As a former Catholic guy, I know a lot about guilt and it still affects me to a certain degree... mainly to do with my wife and kids... guilt is a very stubborn beast to eradicate. It's an interior torment.


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## Casual Observer

In Absentia said:


> If forgiveness has been allowed and she is forgiven, what's the problem? Her guilt? As a former Catholic guy, I know a lot about guilt and it still affects me to a certain degree... mainly to do with my wife and kids... guilt is a very stubborn beast to eradicate. It's an interior torment.


The problem remains that you cannot accept forgiveness if you haven't fully confessed and understood your sins. We are not innocent; we are aware of good and bad and to be truly repentant requires examination of the issue, perhaps you could say a searching of your soul. That's scary for many. I think, for Catholics, at least those I knew back in the day, guilt is almost institutionalized and easier to deal with. For those of us who aren't, guilt is a scary thing that we don't want to face. We (non-Catholics) don't have a ritualized confession. Asking for forgiveness is more personal and without a script. I am not trying to offend the Catholic religion, just pointing out some things I've noted over the years. Open to correction where wrong!


----------



## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> Open to correction where wrong!


No, you are correct! Especially about the institutionalised guilt, which is used almost as a weapon...


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## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> The problem remains that *you cannot accept forgiveness if you haven't fully confessed and understood your sins*. We are not innocent; we are aware of good and bad and *to be truly repentant requires examination of the issue, perhaps you could say a searching of your soul*. That's scary for many.


So, you think your wife hasn't done any of this?


----------



## Casual Observer

In Absentia said:


> So, you think your wife hasn't done any of this?


It's a process. She's still in denial that anything that could be a version of PIV happened, but that's based on her idea that it couldn't have happened, yet she has no memory. I'm going to be telling her it's time to stop telling me I'm the only guy she's ever had sex with because it causes me too much grief figuring out if it's a cover or what. We know she consented twice, and that's kind of the biggest issue because it runs so contrary to her narrative and provided the basis for the extreme guilt she felt going forward. That guy was in it for sex; that was his frequently-announced intention. Denying him that after consent would have provided a memorable experience. Times were different then than now. If a woman said yes, and later changed her mind, the thinking, for many guys, would be to wear her down until she said ok, basically gave up. The conversation from the guy would have worked on her guilt for leading him on. 

So she's continuing to struggle a bit, looking for a way out that doesn't involve confession and repentance, just doing the right things now. I appreciate that, she is trying, but she's not going to get past her guilt about sex and sexual pleasure in particular if she can't understand her own history and how sex with me should never have been seen as a do-over, a test to see if she could enjoy sex like she enjoyed everything leading up to it. She was very disappointed in that first experience, whatever it was, and approached sex with me in the same physical way, same result, and thus her guilt-meter pegged because clearly she was being punished by God for not being a good girl. 

It is all so weird and all so preventable. But we're getting there, bit by bit.


----------



## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> It's a process. She's still in denial that anything that could be a version of PIV happened, but that's based on her idea that it couldn't have happened, yet she has no memory. I'm going to be telling her it's time to stop telling me I'm the only guy she's ever had sex with because it causes me too much grief figuring out if it's a cover or what. We know she consented twice, and that's kind of the biggest issue because it runs so contrary to her narrative and provided the basis for the extreme guilt she felt going forward. That guy was in it for sex; that was his frequently-announced intention. Denying him that after consent would have provided a memorable experience. Times were different then than now. If a woman said yes, and later changed her mind, the thinking, for many guys, would be to wear her down until she said ok, basically gave up. The conversation from the guy would have worked on her guilt for leading him on.
> 
> So she's continuing to struggle a bit, looking for a way out that doesn't involve confession and repentance, just doing the right things now. I appreciate that, she is trying, but she's not going to get past her guilt about sex and sexual pleasure in particular if she can't understand her own history and how sex with me should never have been seen as a do-over, a test to see if she could enjoy sex like she enjoyed everything leading up to it. She was very disappointed in that first experience, whatever it was, and approached sex with my in the same physical way, same result, and thus her guilt-meter pegged because clearly she was being punished by God for not being a good girl.
> 
> It is all so weird and all so preventable. But we're getting there, bit by bit.



Thanks for the explanation... makes a lot more sense to me now... :smile2:


----------



## Casual Observer

*Latest MC update*

No huge drama lately. I did try to explain (try because she really doesn't get this point) that it causes me trouble anytime she brings up that I'm the only guy she's "had sex with" because it puts me in a position of having to reconcile strikingly-different narratives that she still doesn't want to deal with. Which is, I'm gradually coming around to, OK. I can live with that. But she needs to stop trying to "reassure" me of things that created the issues in the first place. OK, enough of that, for now. 

Today's focus was initially on her guilt about sex as a pleasurable thing, lack of being able to anticipate it, and the pressure it's placed upon me when she describes sex as boring but won't do anything herself about it. We've gone down this road several times before, but I think the MC is hoping she might become more receptive now to looking at things from a perspective not her own. I think some progress is being made in that regard. But it is very, very, very, VERY slow. 

We had a good day yesterday, heading out for a bike ride along an estuary to take photos of birds and just be outside on a nice day. It's not easy getting her out and exercising at all. But she enjoyed it, a lot. 

But (hate it when that word creeps in) afterward, as planned, we headed to a shopping center to get a new watch for me. An iWatch, so fairly pricey. I didn't want to buy it alone because first, it's an expensive purchase that I would want her to approve, and second, there are options like size, and color and type of band and all of that has to do with how the thing looks on me. My skin color, size of my wrist, whatever. I value her opinion. 

And what happens? It's like, why am I here, it's your watch. WTH? Not totally unexpected, but really? If I were buying a suit would it be the same thing? She became totally detached and I had to drag her back in every couple minutes with this choice or that, and it would be the same thing. Explaining this to the MC was the one time in the session I came close to tears. If my wife asked me about something, something that was maybe just for her, something I really don't have a clue about, I'd want to get involved because A:I'd want to know why my wife asked me, what value she sees in my opinion, and B: If it's interesting to my wife, I want to know more about it, because if it's interesting to her, it's interesting to me. If that makes sense. It's part of her that I didn't know much about so she's asking me to learn. 

The MC asked her questions about her family and whether they actually shared anything with each other. My wife didn't understand the question. So I asked my wife, did you ever discuss boyfriends with your older or younger sister? Got an absolute no on that one. 

My wife basically sees vulnerability as a bad thing. The counselor sees the differences in vulnerability as probably the biggest difference between us. I see vulnerability as a good thing, something that leads to openness. Or being open leads to vulnerability. Either way works, or doesn't. 

The really good news is that her slightly younger sister sent her an email and really opened up about all the issues in her marriage and how she's planning to leave her abusive husband (been married 28 years I think?). Oh, this was after a brief exchange in which my wife told her that everything was "good" for her. No mention of any issues in our marriage, all was going along fine.

So... my wife finally has an opportunity to open up about her own issues and confide in someone besides me or the MC or an IC. Someone who knows her, someone who is sharing some pain about marriage. I am really excited about this. I told my wife I'm fine with her throwing me under the bus. Vent. Whatever. The value in my wife seeing and hearing things from another perspective could be really wonderful for her. I told her I'm good with her flying out to see her sister if she'd like to spend a couple days catching up and going over things. 

This could, of course, be the dumbest thing I've ever encouraged. But I really don't think so. I'm looking forward to the two sisters reconnecting and figuring out what's been good and what's been bad in their lives. Bouncing each husband against the other (and yes, I'll admit, the sister's husband sounds so bad that I think I have to come off looking pretty good in comparison). 

Thanks for listening to my journey-


----------



## Openminded

The short answer about the watch situation is that she’s not you. Yes, you would want to be involved if it were something only she cared about but she doesn’t feel the same way about something only you care about. I’m surprised she even agreed to go. 

Could she learn to care about these things at some point? Maybe. But don’t depend on it. She’s not you.


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## Casual Observer

Openminded said:


> The short answer about the watch situation is that she’s not you. Yes, you would want to be involved if it were something only she cared about but she doesn’t feel the same way about something only you care about. I’m surprised she even agreed to go.
> 
> Could she learn to care about *these things* at some point? Maybe. But don’t depend on it. She’s not you.


So another vote for the camp that says people don't change, accept who they are, and geez, it's been 40 years, why now???!!!

But the reason I bolded "these things" is because apparently I'm supposed to separate this from important stuff? This is just a "thing" issue and not personal?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Casual Observer said:


> So another vote for the camp that says people don't change, accept who they are, and geez, it's been 40 years, why now???!!!
> 
> But the reason I bolded "these things" is because apparently I'm supposed to separate this from important stuff? This is just a "thing" issue and not personal?


In the case of the watch, yes it’s just a thing issue and not personal.


----------



## In Absentia

well, if I asked my wife if she would come with me to make sure my watch would suit my skin colour, she would think I'm barking mad... :laugh:


----------



## jlg07

I see nothing wrong to expect your spouse to WANT to spend time with you -- that's what this is about, not about the watch.
I don't care what we are doing -- as long as we are together doing it. There are errands my wife could do during the week, but we often wind up doing them together on the weekends. Is going out and getting dog supplies something I look forward to? NO, but I DO look forward to spending time with my wife -- we stop and get coffee, we talk in the car ride to/from, etc.. THAT is I think what CO is looking for -- her desire to spend time with him.


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## Blondilocks

Making the lack of interest in which watch you buy the issue is coming across as way too needy. Does she have a habit of dissing your choices?


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## Openminded

Casual Observer said:


> So another vote for the camp that says people don't change, accept who they are, and geez, it's been 40 years, why now???!!!
> 
> But the reason I bolded "these things" is because apparently I'm supposed to separate this from important stuff? This is just a "thing" issue and not personal?


Yes.


----------



## Casual Observer

Blondilocks said:


> Making the lack of interest in which watch you buy the issue is coming across as way too needy. Does she have a habit of dissing your choices?


No, she makes it a habit of not having much interest in anything that isn't directly about herself. She has a remarkable inability to assess where someone is coming from. She doesn't wonder "Why is he asking me this?" in anything other than a condescending fashion, as in, why is this my problem? If your LTR is asking for help on something, should it reflexively be seen as why is it my problem? 

I guess what it comes down to is she has virtually zero curiosity about why someone feels the way they do. 

Sometimes it feels like there's there's no "us" of which I get to contribute, just her. It's such a total disconnect that I don't usually find it offensive, it's just the way she is. However, I am definitely becoming less tolerant of this over time, especially as I find myself expending more time and effort doing things for her, putting our relationship ahead of just about everything else in a meaningful way.

The IC & MC believe that she has a false feeling of safety when she keeps things to herself and builds walls between herself and what others are feeling. Of course, if she feels that way, it's not really a false feeling is it? The goal is to make her understand that it's OK to be more open and more vulnerable.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Casual Observer said:


> No, she makes it a habit of not having much interest in anything that isn't directly about herself. She has a remarkable inability to assess where someone is coming from. She doesn't wonder "Why is he asking me this?" in anything other than a condescending fashion, as in, why is this my problem? If your LTR is asking for help on something, should it reflexively be seen as why is it my problem?
> 
> I guess what it comes down to is she has virtually zero curiosity about why someone feels the way they do.
> 
> Sometimes it feels like there's there's no "us" of which I get to contribute, just her. It's such a total disconnect that I don't usually find it offensive, it's just the way she is. However, I am definitely becoming less tolerant of this over time, especially as I find myself expending more time and effort doing things for her, putting our relationship ahead of just about everything else in a meaningful way.
> 
> The IC & MC believe that she has a false feeling of safety when she keeps things to herself and builds walls between herself and what others are feeling. Of course, if she feels that way, it's not really a false feeling is it? The goal is to make her understand that it's OK to be more open and more vulnerable.



Have any of you ever considered that she may be on the spectrum?


----------



## Livvie

Casual Observer said:


> Blondilocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> Making the lack of interest in which watch you buy the issue is coming across as way too needy. Does she have a habit of dissing your choices?
> 
> 
> 
> No, she makes it a habit of not having much interest in anything that isn't directly about herself. She has a remarkable inability to assess where someone is coming from. She doesn't wonder "Why is he asking me this?" in anything other than a condescending fashion, as in, why is this my problem? If your LTR is asking for help on something, should it reflexively be seen as why is it my problem?
> 
> I guess what it comes down to is she has virtually zero curiosity about why someone feels the way they do.
> 
> Sometimes it feels like there's there's no "us" of which I get to contribute, just her. It's such a total disconnect that I don't usually find it offensive, it's just the way she is. However, I am definitely becoming less tolerant of this over time, especially as I find myself expending more time and effort doing things for her, putting our relationship ahead of just about everything else in a meaningful way.
> 
> The IC & MC believe that she has a false feeling of safety when she keeps things to herself and builds walls between herself and what others are feeling. Of course, if she feels that way, it's not really a false feeling is it? The goal is to make her understand that it's OK to be more open and more vulnerable.
Click to expand...

It doesn't sound to me like the major issue is that she isn't "open and vulnerable". It sounds to me like she is selfish and just doesn't give much of a **** about you or others. This is a personality trait some people have. I know you think this is going to change, but you can't generate passion, interest, or giving a **** in someone who doesn't have that for you (or anyone else).


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## Casual Observer

Livvie said:


> It doesn't sound to me like the major issue is that she isn't "open and vulnerable". It sounds to me like she is selfish and just doesn't give much of a **** about you or others. This is a personality trait some people have. I know you think this is going to change, but you can't generate passion, interest, or giving a **** in someone who doesn't have that for you (or anyone else).


I do get where you're coming from with that. I do think about it a lot. And there's a reason that MC can take a very long time to work. I'm still in it for the long haul, but she's on a short leash regarding accountability. She is recognizing, for I believe the first time ever, that her choices have consequences for our relationship.


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## Tilted 1

Casual Observer said:


> I do get where you're coming from with that. I do think about it a lot. And there's a reason that MC can take a very long time to work. I'm still in it for the long haul, but she's on a short leash regarding accountability. She is recognizing, for I believe the first time ever, that her choices have consequences for our relationship.


I thought it was your understanding that there is a time line that you follow. So where does this long haul play into what you said you would do?


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## Livvie

Well that's good that there are consequences. Because it's only natural for there to be consequences when one isn't being an interested, caring partner in response when they are cared for as you care for her. Better for your emotional health and well-being. I know what it's like to be with a crap partner and it isn't good for ones soul.



Casual Observer said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't sound to me like the major issue is that she isn't "open and vulnerable". It sounds to me like she is selfish and just doesn't give much of a **** about you or others. This is a personality trait some people have. I know you think this is going to change, but you can't generate passion, interest, or giving a **** in someone who doesn't have that for you (or anyone else).
> 
> 
> 
> I do get where you're coming from with that. I do think about it a lot. And there's a reason that MC can take a very long time to work. I'm still in it for the long haul, but she's on a short leash regarding accountability. She is recognizing, for I believe the first time ever, that her choices have consequences for our relationship.
Click to expand...


----------



## Casual Observer

Tilted 1 said:


> I thought it was your understanding that there is a time line that you follow. So where does this long haul play into what you said you would do?


Not quite sure I understand the conflicting timelines? Yes, I would very much like to have things settled out prior to our trip to Israel, where I have planned to renew our wedding vows. That would take place on Dec 20. If not enough progress has been made, that doesn't happen. That would be a "consequence."



Livvie said:


> Well that's good that there are consequences. Because it's only natural for there to be consequences when one isn't being an interested, caring partner in response when they are cared for as you care for her. Better for your emotional health and well-being. I know what it's like to be with a crap partner and it isn't good for ones soul.


I really don't want to think of my wife as a "crap" partner. Even if, in some respects, she is. I think we're getting close to her understanding that it wasn't fair for her to marry me as a "way out" without telling me, and that affected/infected our lives in a very big way. The epiphany that she has not not quite come to terms with is that I would not have married her had I had a clue about what she'd hidden from me. Conversely, I would have married her if I knew and she'd told me. 

Marrying someone as a way out, the means to get away from problems with your family and trying to forget your past, can be a really bad idea. Not that I can't understand where it comes from. Your past makes you who you are, perhaps especially if you're trying to forget it. It shapes your world view. Your personality. Especially notions of privacy, boundaries and empathy. The thing is, I'm all for a rescue mission. I want to help. That's just me. But deception really screws up that mission. Largely because you don't even understand that you're on that mission. You think the two of you are embarking on your own new combined adventure. Baggage needs to be declared before you start that adventure, or else you might unexpectedly come to a place where the baggage has to be opened for inspection, or the baggage simply falls apart and the contents spill out for the partner to see. 

I am learning why she is the way she is. She doesn't understand herself. She's beginning to only now. Doesn't it seem like that's a requirement to change? She's not in the same situation today she was when she was growing up. She didn't marry someone at all like her father.


----------



## Affaircare

*Re: Latest MC update*



Casual Observer said:


> No huge drama lately. I did try to explain (try because she really doesn't get this point) that it causes me trouble anytime she brings up that I'm the only guy she's "had sex with" because it puts me in a position of having to reconcile strikingly-different narratives that she still doesn't want to deal with. Which is, I'm gradually coming around to, OK. I can live with that. But she needs to stop trying to "reassure" me of things that created the issues in the first place. OK, enough of that, for now.


Just to be clear, does she think that "anything up to PIV is not sex" (as it relates to her past and her view of who she had sex with)? I ask because one way to maybe discuss this would be to look at right now. If you had "anything up to PIV" but stopped just short of insertion with someone else ...would she consider that non-sexual or would she consider that infidelity? In other words, if it would be sex for you to do X, Y, or Z ...it was sex for her too. Now granted she did her activities prior to a committed relationship, and you'd be breaking the commitment by doing them--but the idea is that if a kiss is sexual for you to do to another person now, then a kiss was sexual for her to do to another person too. See what I mean? 

Also, I understand that she does not want to call it "having sex" but another option might be to say that as a teen and young woman she did experiment with some sexual expression but did not have INTERCOURSE. Gee let's be honest...sometimes holding hands is sexual, and kids in junior high hold hands! So she did express her sexuality in one way or another, found some things she enjoyed, some she didn't, and she didn't ____. 



> Today's focus was initially on her guilt about sex as a pleasurable thing, lack of being able to anticipate it, and the pressure it's placed upon me when she describes sex as boring but won't do anything herself about it. We've gone down this road several times before, but I think the MC is hoping she might become more receptive now to looking at things from a perspective not her own. I think some progress is being made in that regard. But it is very, very, very, VERY slow.


So here's my question: what's the goal here? Let's assume she really and truly does find sex, as it is right now, boring. Are you and the MC hoping she'll find a way to be honest about that and then....what? Doing something to change herself so she finds it exciting? Or make a request that she would find exciting? Do you understand what I'm asking? If she doesn't anticipate it because it just isn't all that fun for her, then what would be a step in the right direction in our mind? 

I do not mean to sound insensitive here, but if she doesn't anticipate it because she finds it boring, my educated guess would be that she's not connecting with you very well, and she likely is not connecting with you because connecting requires some level of vulnerability. So what are you willing to do to give her a safe place to be vulnerable?



> We had a good day yesterday, heading out for a bike ride along an estuary to take photos of birds and just be outside on a nice day. It's not easy getting her out and exercising at all. But she enjoyed it, a lot.


Did you know I used to be 205 lbs.? Yep, when Dear Hubby was alive I ate BIG plates of food and didn't exercise hardly at all, because I was just too busy and too stressed from working all day and taking care of him all night. Food was my escape--that moment of pleasure in an unpleasant world. One thing I didn't realize, though, is that the weight was like a self-fulfilling prophecy: I'd be too tired to walk--I'd gain some weight--it would make me tired--I'd be too tired to walk--on and on in circles. I did not realize that the weight was also like a dampener to my soul. 

Once Dear Hubby passed away, I realized "Well...I'm healthy. I have no excuse to not walk" so walk I did! I built up to 2-3 miles per day and got smaller plates and most importantly, gave myself rewards and treats that were not food. And I walked no matter what, rain or shine, tired or no. Losing the weight was literally like lifting a burden off my shoulders. I suspect at minimum that a portion of your wife's lack of enthusiasm is due to being tired from her extra weight. 



> But (hate it when that word creeps in) afterward, as planned, we headed to a shopping center to get a new watch for me. An iWatch, so fairly pricey. I didn't want to buy it alone because first, it's an expensive purchase that I would want her to approve, and second, there are options like size, and color and type of band and all of that has to do with how the thing looks on me. My skin color, size of my wrist, whatever. I value her opinion.
> 
> And what happens? It's like, why am I here, it's your watch. WTH? Not totally unexpected, but really? If I were buying a suit would it be the same thing? She became totally detached and I had to drag her back in every couple minutes with this choice or that, and it would be the same thing. Explaining this to the MC was the one time in the session I came close to tears. If my wife asked me about something, something that was maybe just for her, something I really don't have a clue about, I'd want to get involved because A:I'd want to know why my wife asked me, what value she sees in my opinion, and B: If it's interesting to my wife, I want to know more about it, because if it's interesting to her, it's interesting to me. If that makes sense. It's part of her that I didn't know much about so she's asking me to learn.


Okay again, let me ask you something: What if she was honestly and truly okay with whatever iWatch you wanted? What if she didn't have a dog in this fight and thought she really didn't have a preference? Let me give you an example: I adore @Emerging Buddhist. ADORE him! And almost every night he asks me what I want for dinner. Now, he is the chef in our house, and I am the one who cleans the kitchen after his art is created. I grew up in a pretty poor family, and we had to grow our food in order to have anything to eat. There we days all we had was an apple, or a sandwich, or a bowl of cereal. So to me, the fact that I get to eat something warm and tasty every single day is a MIRACLE! I am thrilled to death! I don't care one single bit what he chooses to make, he's a good cook and I know I will be grateful for it--even if he experiments and it turns out "badly" (lol). So every night I tell him to make "whatever makes his little heart happy" because I mean that. 

Now, I am like you in that even when I don't particularly have a passion about something EB is passionate about...because I care about him, I am interested in what HE cares about, and thus I'll learn all about it. But what if it was like the dinner scenario above? What if it wasn't personal but I just was neither passionate nor dispassionate? I've got no bone to pick--do what makes you happy. Is that good enough for you? 

I understand what brings you to tears is that YOU express interest and connection via being interestED in your wife, and you show that by being interestED in the things that interest her. You want to know her mind and so you'd show interest. The fact that she does NOT show interest means she's NOT INTERESTED IN YOU ... to your mind. Or at least that's how it sounds when I read this. 



> The MC asked her questions about her family and whether they actually shared anything with each other. My wife didn't understand the question. So I asked my wife, did you ever discuss boyfriends with your older or younger sister? Got an absolute no on that one.
> 
> My wife basically sees vulnerability as a bad thing. The counselor sees the differences in vulnerability as probably the biggest difference between us. I see vulnerability as a good thing, something that leads to openness. Or being open leads to vulnerability. Either way works, or doesn't.


The more you write about your wife, the more I'm convinced something happened in her past that was a trauma. Maybe a sexual assault that she's completely squashed...maybe just physical abuse that she has dissociated from. Honestly, it could have happened when she was very young too. For example, if she was 2yo and someone sexually abused her, she wouldn't have the tools to even know what that was or the words to describe it. Then as she got olders, she's told in church that sex is bad and somehow she feels kind of scared about sex. Then she hit puberty and wants what scares her and does it some but it feels good and feels bad at the same time... See what I mean?

The lack of vulnerability is the thing that's catching my attention. I'm also this way (a bit), but because of my counseling for years, I did learn to be safe being vulnerable. Even now I sometimes flinch a minute and then soothe myself, but it took years of being a little vulnerable...oh that went okay...a little more vulnerable...oh that went okay too. But @Casual Observer, you grew up in a relatively safe and nurturing home, and maybe she just did not grow up in a home that was safe or with people who nurtured her. Thus, she may think something like "showing someone my weak point is giving them an opportunity to hurt me, and I will NOT be hurt!" 

Side Note: when Dear Hubby and I were recovering after my affair, this was the hardest--well SCARIEST--part of me...letting people really SEE me. I had been behind walls in my first marriage, and I did better but still has some "image management" kind of walls in the beginning of my marriage with Dear Hubby. After the infidelity, I learned that radical transparency was what brought about that closeness and intimate connection, so I had to practice it. To me, it felt so RAW and like I was too "out there naked for everyone to see"...but that was just an inaccurate feeling and I had to move past that and keep on.



> The really good news is that her slightly younger sister sent her an email and really opened up about all the issues in her marriage and how she's planning to leave her abusive husband (been married 28 years I think?). Oh, this was after a brief exchange in which my wife told her that everything was "good" for her. No mention of any issues in our marriage, all was going along fine.
> 
> So... my wife finally has an opportunity to open up about her own issues and confide in someone besides me or the MC or an IC. Someone who knows her, someone who is sharing some pain about marriage. I am really excited about this. I told my wife I'm fine with her throwing me under the bus. Vent. Whatever. The value in my wife seeing and hearing things from another perspective could be really wonderful for her. I told her I'm good with her flying out to see her sister if she'd like to spend a couple days catching up and going over things.
> 
> This could, of course, be the dumbest thing I've ever encouraged. But I really don't think so. I'm looking forward to the two sisters reconnecting and figuring out what's been good and what's been bad in their lives. Bouncing each husband against the other (and yes, I'll admit, the sister's husband sounds so bad that I think I have to come off looking pretty good in comparison).
> 
> Thanks for listening to my journey-


You're welcome.


----------



## Blondilocks

How feasible is it for her to develop a whole new personality at her age? Have her counselors given you any idea if it is possible for her to become a caring individual? Would you be willing to accept a fake version (as in she just pretends to care)?


----------



## Casual Observer

*Re: Latest MC update*



Affaircare said:


> Just to be clear, does she think that "anything up to PIV is not sex" (as it relates to her past and her view of who she had sex with)? I ask because one way to maybe discuss this would be to look at right now. If you had "anything up to PIV" but stopped just short of insertion with someone else ...would she consider that non-sexual or would she consider that infidelity? In other words, if it would be sex for you to do X, Y, or Z ...it was sex for her too. Now granted she did her activities prior to a committed relationship, and you'd be breaking the commitment by doing them--but the idea is that if a kiss is sexual for you to do to another person now, then a kiss was sexual for her to do to another person too. See what I mean?
> 
> Also, I understand that she does not want to call it "having sex" but another option might be to say that as a teen and young woman she did experiment with some sexual expression but did not have INTERCOURSE. Gee let's be honest...sometimes holding hands is sexual, and kids in junior high hold hands! So she did express her sexuality in one way or another, found some things she enjoyed, some she didn't, and she didn't
> So yes, there are potentially definition issues here, but the main point was that she had consented, twice, to PIV sex. You generally don't need the guy wearing a condom for just playing around. Whether she actually did or did not is irrelevant. The issue is the narrative. She was insistent that she was never even close to that. That it was all about saving herself. That she was never in a situation where that could have happened. And yet, for two weeks, sex was 100% on the table, and apparently this caused her so much grief & anguish that she hid this experience first from me then from herself. Only later to have a pretty complete breakdown over whatever happened that she still couldn't tell me about. It's... .complicated. She could have told me that her past was private and fine, it's up to me to decide if that matters or not. It was her choice to tell me there were things she didn't want to discuss or wouldn't discuss. Instead she assured me she was being 100% open and truthful about who she was and what she'd done. Remember, the narrative was that of a Christian girl which she chose to contrast over my own non-Christian (at the time) belief as well as my non-virginal status. Truth be told I kind of wanted her to tell me she wasn't a virgin, because I felt badly that I wasn't. But she took the high road (and judgmental) road. ____.
> 
> 
> 
> So here's my question: what's the goal here? Let's assume she really and truly does find sex, as it is right now, boring. Are you and the MC hoping she'll find a way to be honest about that and then....what? Doing something to change herself so she finds it exciting? Or make a request that she would find exciting? Do you understand what I'm asking? If she doesn't anticipate it because it just isn't all that fun for her, then what would be a step in the right direction in our mind? We're in pretty much complete agreement, the counselors, my wife and I, that "sex" was wrecked for her by a traumatic experience that she doesn't want to believe happened. Despite the fact that she wrote about it. The thinking is that, if she can actually identify that experience, that she can see how it's a different experience than now. That sex as a physical act is not the only type of sex there is, so whatever was "ruined" for her is not the opportunity at hand since. It is so frustrating to think how much easier this would have been to deal with, way back when. Now, we have to deal with screwy memories and self-protection. She has to balance something like a 5th amendment against the ability to improve. That's really a pretty way of looking at it.
> 
> I do not mean to sound insensitive here, but if she doesn't anticipate it because she finds it boring, my educated guess would be that she's not connecting with you very well, and she likely is not connecting with you because connecting requires some level of vulnerability. So what are you willing to do to give her a safe place to be vulnerable? Do you have any suggestions? I've given her a safe haven, as it were. I protect her from situations where she's come across badly; basically, I'll take the bullet for her and intercede on her behalf. She knows this. But where do you draw the line between that and enabling? But you can argue that having to make choices is not a "safe place" if one of the choices involves leaving.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you know I used to be 205 lbs.? Yep, when Dear Hubby was alive I ate BIG plates of food and didn't exercise hardly at all, because I was just too busy and too stressed from working all day and taking care of him all night. Food was my escape--that moment of pleasure in an unpleasant world. One thing I didn't realize, though, is that the weight was like a self-fulfilling prophecy: I'd be too tired to walk--I'd gain some weight--it would make me tired--I'd be too tired to walk--on and on in circles. I did not realize that the weight was also like a dampener to my soul.
> 
> Once Dear Hubby passed away, I realized "Well...I'm healthy. I have no excuse to not walk" so walk I did! I built up to 2-3 miles per day and got smaller plates and most importantly, gave myself rewards and treats that were not food. And I walked no matter what, rain or shine, tired or no. Losing the weight was literally like lifting a burden off my shoulders. I suspect at minimum that a portion of your wife's lack of enthusiasm is due to being tired from her extra weight. Completely true. My wife and I are the polar opposite in that regard. I eat healthier and push myself hard. Despite having a rare bone marrow cancer and impaired lungs, I test out way stronger than those in my age group. I rarely have fatigue. I don't have issues with pain. OK, so let's go back to the "safe place" thing. I take my wife on a yearly vacation and go out of my way to make sure it's something she can handle. She knows they're not the type of vacation I would do by myself; I'd go for something much more physically challenging. But those vacations are a very safe place for her. I make sure she has a time to remember. It's the one thing in our relationship she does really look forward to.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay again, let me ask you something: What if she was honestly and truly okay with whatever iWatch you wanted? What if she didn't have a dog in this fight and thought she really didn't have a preference? Let me give you an example: I adore @Emerging Buddhist. ADORE him! And almost every night he asks me what I want for dinner. Now, he is the chef in our house, and I am the one who cleans the kitchen after his art is created. I grew up in a pretty poor family, and we had to grow our food in order to have anything to eat. There we days all we had was an apple, or a sandwich, or a bowl of cereal. So to me, the fact that I get to eat something warm and tasty every single day is a MIRACLE! I am thrilled to death! I don't care one single bit what he chooses to make, he's a good cook and I know I will be grateful for it--even if he experiments and it turns out "badly" (lol). So every night I tell him to make "whatever makes his little heart happy" because I mean that. And if he asked if you'd prefer this or that, you'd likely reply "Either one would be fantastic!" That's a far cry from saying you cook the meals, do whatever you want. Do you see the difference?
> 
> Now, I am like you in that even when I don't particularly have a passion about something EB is passionate about...because I care about him, I am interested in what HE cares about, and thus I'll learn all about it. But what if it was like the dinner scenario above? What if it wasn't personal but I just was neither passionate nor dispassionate? I've got no bone to pick--do what makes you happy. Is that good enough for you? If it was really the case that she didn't have a viewpoint I valued, a viewpoint that could make a difference, sure. But I think what happens here is that, it's simply not something she cares about, because it's not hers. There's a difference if it comes to picking out a suit, because, and she even gave this example, she's with me when I'm wearing it.
> 
> I understand what brings you to tears is that YOU express interest and connection via being interestED in your wife, and you show that by being interestED in the things that interest her. You want to know her mind and so you'd show interest. The fact that she does NOT show interest means she's NOT INTERESTED IN YOU ... to your mind. Or at least that's how it sounds when I read this. She's interested in me being there. She's scared of being alone. She likes what I provide for her. That's different from truly being interested in me.
> 
> 
> 
> The more you write about your wife, the more I'm convinced something happened in her past that was a trauma. Maybe a sexual assault that she's completely squashed...maybe just physical abuse that she has dissociated from. Honestly, it could have happened when she was very young too. For example, if she was 2yo and someone sexually abused her, she wouldn't have the tools to even know what that was or the words to describe it. Then as she got olders, she's told in church that sex is bad and somehow she feels kind of scared about sex. Then she hit puberty and wants what scares her and does it some but it feels good and feels bad at the same time... See what I mean? The obvious is usually the truth. The obvious sticks out like a sore thumb, because she wrote about it, in detail, and now has no recollection. How many women wouldn't recall thinking about losing their virginity? And planning to do so? A few, I'm sure. But in this case early on she actively lied about it, not just omitted it, so it's not like it didn't have a shot at becoming a long term memory. It was on her mind. Until it wasn't. All within a short period of time.
> 
> The lack of vulnerability is the thing that's catching my attention. I'm also this way (a bit), but because of my counseling for years, I did learn to be safe being vulnerable. Even now I sometimes flinch a minute and then soothe myself, but it took years of being a little vulnerable...oh that went okay...a little more vulnerable...oh that went okay too. But @Casual Observer, you grew up in a relatively safe and nurturing home, and maybe she just did not grow up in a home that was safe or with people who nurtured her. Thus, she may think something like "showing someone my weak point is giving them an opportunity to hurt me, and I will NOT be hurt!" Absolutely, 100% this. What she's coming to realize now is that there is a cost for trying to minimize vulnerability. She never, ever, thought about that before. It was only benefits. Her ability to control the narrative. That's been shot to pieces.
> 
> Side Note: when Dear Hubby and I were recovering after my affair, this was the hardest--well SCARIEST--part of me...letting people really SEE me. I had been behind walls in my first marriage, and I did better but still has some "image management" kind of walls in the beginning of my marriage with Dear Hubby. After the infidelity, I learned that radical transparency was what brought about that closeness and intimate connection, so I had to practice it. To me, it felt so RAW and like I was too "out there naked for everyone to see"...but that was just an inaccurate feeling and I had to move past that and keep on. You were able to make that jump. A leap of faith. Exposing yourself, knowing it was a one-way thing and... you did not have assurance it would work. Not everybody can do that. I wish my wife could.
> 
> 
> 
> You're welcome.


----------



## Casual Observer

Blondilocks said:


> How feasible is it for her to develop a whole new personality at her age? Have her counselors given you any idea if it is possible for her to become a caring individual? Would you be willing to accept a fake version (as in she just pretends to care)?


It's impossible to develop a whole new personality. It is possible to develop improved sensitivity towards others. What the counselors have to work at is accountability. She's still able to fool them. The MC is catching on though. How much hope do I have? Perhaps too much. But again, this is supposed to be a long process. That's said repeatedly. You go into MC thinking, how can it really take that long? But the truth is, it DOES take a very long time for someone to recognize the need to change, resist it mightily for a while, try, fail, try again. Over and over until what? You either give up or recognize that it's not so bad coming out of your shell and living a bit differently.

I think it does help a bit recognizing outside influences that put you on a wrong path, because then it can be somebody else's fault. Easier to change if you don't have to accept that where you are is of your own making.

Again, as I've said before, this stuff all tends to paint my wife in the worst-possible light, and that's not entirely fair. I really enjoy being around her. I enjoy doing things for her. But what bothers me is not knowing if I want to stick it out with her for me, or for her.


----------



## Thor

Casual Observer said:


> I think we're getting close to her understanding that it wasn't fair for her to marry me as a "way out" without telling me, and that affected/infected our lives in a very big way. The epiphany that she has not not quite come to terms with is that I would not have married her had I had a clue about what she'd hidden from me. Conversely, I would have married her if I knew and she'd told me.


I will be surprised if she does take this to heart. Abuse victims have a different view. While she isn't a classic CSA or rape victim, it seems there are a lot of similarities in how her past has traumatized her. For the victim nothing is fair. And it isn't about being fair to their partner. It is about protecting themselves. This is why they don't reveal the information to you in the first place. And that gets us to your second and third sentences. She probably decided not to tell you anything about it before marriage specifically because she knew you wouldn't marry her. That is her self-protection at play. And the deepest part of her psyche doesn't believe your last statement that you would have married her if she'd told you.

She may get to the point of accepting that you feel it was unfair. She may get to the point of not feeling attacked by you saying you felt it was unfair. But I really will be surprised if she comes to agree that she was mistaken or that she would come to feel remorse.


----------



## In Absentia

Blondilocks said:


> How feasible is it for her to develop a whole new personality at her age? Have her counselors given you any idea if it is possible for her to become a caring individual? Would you be willing to accept a fake version (as in she just pretends to care)?


I agree with this... to me, it's almost impossible. I tried with my wife, but years and years of ingrained issues were too difficult to eradicate. It's great the OP's wife is trying, but I will be incredibly surprised if anything changes...


----------



## Affaircare

In Absentia said:


> Blondilocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> How feasible is it for her to develop a whole new personality at her age? Have her counselors given you any idea if it is possible for her to become a caring individual? Would you be willing to accept a fake version (as in she just pretends to care)?
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with this... to me, it's almost impossible. I tried with my wife, but years and years of ingrained issues were too difficult to eradicate. It's great the OP's wife is trying, but I will be incredibly surprised if anything changes...
Click to expand...

I think here's the difference... @In Absentia your wife did not want to change and still does not want to change. She may have some awareness that her Pure-O OCD is causing some problems in her life, but part of her mental illness is seeing reality is such a skewed way that she can't see that the problems are her responsibility (and thus within her grasp to change). Instead, she keeps her house of cards going by blaming pretty much everything on everyone else--you included. 

In @Casual Observer 's situation, I don't think his wife has an actual mental illness, but for whatever reason she is aware enough that her lack of addressing this has caused some problems in her life and she is beginning to see that the problems are her responsibility (and thus within her grasp to change). 

So @Casual Observer 's wife won't be changing her personality. If she's an ISFJ now, she'll be an ISFJ when she's done with counseling and done all her therapy. But what WILL change is that by having faced and dealt with whatever the trauma is that she has shut out, she will be in touch with her raw emotions and able to express them, rather than suppressing them. She will have identified when an emotion is coming and overwhelming her. She will have tools to deal with feelings as they come up. She will have knowledge which emotions can be healthy and which can be challenging. And she will have practiced all this on her own and then reviewed it with a professional to help do a better job. 

That I can tell, right now part of her mis-fire (if you will) is that she has up protective shields or walls so that she is never vulnerable, not even to herself. As she learns how to lower the shields, she will feel all the feelings of fear, of doubt, of vulnerability...and her instinct is to slam that shut and put up that wall! The professional will be there to help her learn to notice, "Oh I'm putting up a wall." Next, once you notice you are putting up the wall, what might you do differently? Next, once you think of what you might do differently--practice that a couple times. (You caught yourself walling off, you stopped building the wall, you spoke out loud....but UGH that didn't work so well. Next time I want to try doing ____. )

The transformation, then, would be that she would be more in touch with herself and more able to connect intimately--emotionally, mentally and physically. She'd be able to share herself without fear. She may be interested in CO sharing himself (and it seems likely only because she is willing to face all this right now, partly because of him). So she would still be WHO she is, but she'd be in touch with herself and be able to fully enjoy or fully experience sorrow etc.


----------



## In Absentia

Affaircare said:


> I think here's the difference... @In Absentia your wife did not want to change and still does not want to change. She may have some awareness that her Pure-O OCD is causing some problems in her life, but part of her mental illness is seeing reality is such a skewed way that she can't see that the problems are her responsibility (and thus within her grasp to change). Instead, she keeps her house of cards going by blaming pretty much everything on everyone else--you included.


I think it's slightly different with my wife. She knows very well that her Pure O is causing big problems in her life, but her illness doesn't allow her to take action. Her denial is so strong that she is prepared to sacrifice our marriage. She knows she has responsibilities, but she can't act on her issues. The OP's wife can, but to me, she is doing it out of duty. She is comfortable in her situation and doesn't want to change. She is doing it for her husband. As @Blondilocks says, does the OP really want a "fake" wife? I would understand if she embraced MC and IC enthusiastically, but somehow I don't get this impression...  

So, my wife is prepared to sacrifice our marriage, the OP's goes to therapy to save hers...


----------



## Blondilocks

I just have the hardest time understanding why you would marry a woman (girl) who showed no passion for you and no interest in anything related to you unless it affected her somehow (the suit you wear when she is with you, for instance). 

This thread should be a sticky for a forum that discusses red flags before marriage.


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## Casual Observer

In Absentia said:


> I think it's slightly different with my wife. She knows very well that her Pure O is causing big problems in her life, but her illness doesn't allow her to take action. Her denial is so strong that she is prepared to sacrifice our marriage. She knows she has responsibilities, but she can't act on her issues. The OP's wife can, but to me, she is doing it out of duty. She is comfortable in her situation and doesn't want to change. She is doing it for her husband. As @Blondilocks says, does the OP really want a "fake" wife? I would understand if she embraced MC and IC enthusiastically, but somehow I don't get this impression...
> 
> So, my wife is prepared to sacrifice our marriage, the OP's goes to therapy to save hers...


My wife alternates between appearing to be truly willing to change, knowing that she has to change, that the issues are hers... and becoming defensive and resistant. The battle is making sure that "progress" (You can see I'm better at this! Or that!) isn't seen as a reason to think she's on a long-term path to being better. I am not delusional. But, and I think this is important, I'm not willing to settle for some half-way state in which she thinks she can do enough "things" to be ok with me without actually changing her inner attitude. I know this woman. I know what to say or do to bring out her "true self" if need be. So my yardstick is to observe the difference between what she wants me to see, and what she doesn't. Does that make sense? 

In other words, I don't think I can be fooled all that easily.


Blondilocks said:


> I just have the hardest time understanding why you would marry a woman (girl) who showed no passion for you and no interest in anything related to you unless it affected her somehow (the suit you wear when she is with you, for instance).
> 
> This thread should be a sticky for a forum that discusses red flags before marriage.


Oh to be young and stupid and have no future? We deceive ourselves when we are young, and especially in my case, having only two relationships ever, just one prior to my wife. 

I don't think this is about spotting passion that's long term vs otherwise. I think it's about having very, very intense discussions regarding notions of privacy and boundaries before marriage. Which were NOT discussed in the counseling sessions we had (through our church). I think, also, one really needs to dig deeply into the reason why your LTR wants to get married. What role are you serving in his or her life?* If you're an escape from his or her past, your partner has, I believe, a responsibility to reveal that. * I've bolded that because I think it's far more important than most realize, when applicable.


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## Livvie

In response to the OPs above post.... but it IS also about passion. Passion to be with that person, passion for and about them.


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## Casual Observer

Livvie said:


> In response to the OPs above post.... but it IS also about passion. Passion to be with that person, passion for and about them.


I could agree with this 999% and still under-rate the truth of that statement. I do not feel "passion" has to die as we get older, or even diminish much, if at all. I believe a passionless marriage isn't really a marriage at all but could be a convenient, perhaps even loving, relationship. But it's not what I signed up for. And passion doesn't just mean sex, but sex without passion is, I believe, poisonous in the long run. 

Should I be starting a "This I believe" piece? 

Passion doesn't place the burden on one partner to keep things exciting and interesting. It's part of being passionate. It should flow and not feel contrived. 

And on and on and on.


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## Casual Observer

*Weekly update "Why should I have to...."*

Another Monday, another MC session yesterday. My wife just isn't getting that improvement isn't something you do for a few days and you're done. It isn't something where you can say "I'm better than I used to be!" and think you get a gold star. 

The texting & engagement that I ask for, which she thinks she's doing. Sunday I was out on a long bike ride, and rode past the usual duck pond. Took a photo and sent it to her, letting her know I had made it as far as the duck pond. She responded that she didn't see any ducks (hard to see in the photo because of the distance). Specifically, she texted "I don't see none ducks!" OK, that's good! She's engaging me! So I took another photo closer-up, edited it on the phone, enlarging it, putting a big circle around a couple of ducks, put an arrow and wrote in big text "Ducks!" Sent it to her and... never got a response. It didn't occur to her that I was still there, at the other end of a virtual connection, and that I'd see the humor in the situation and send her something? 

My wife actually used that text, her saying "I don't see none ducks!", as an example of her trying to be better. And the MC is recognizing that yes, there's a conversation here, why did she think it should end when I sent her the cute picture? If she was going to put her phone down and move on, why not say "Look forward to hearing from you when you get to the bakery?" Or something. 

She does the minimal and moves on. So last night we had a long talk about this, and some more this morning. She just cannot get past this idea that there's this easy thing to do, you do it, and you're done. You move on. More than anything she wants to move on. I gave her my view. That marriage is work. It's something you work on every single day. She countered with "But some days I feel good and other days I don't." And that's the rationalization for why she doesn't have to try 50% of the time, because she's not having a good day. I asked her what would happen to our business if I thought it was ok to treat customers worse on "bad" days than "good." 

One of the things brought up, by us, at MC was that we haven't had homework so there hasn't been much accountability. So the MC gave her homework, but curiously, not me. My wife's homework is to make a list of things she feels she's being "judged" on, because one of my wife's big complaints is that nothing she can do is good enough. This is an attempt by the MC to try and desensitize her a bit and make her more open to being vulnerable. I don't know if it's a good thing I understand this perfectly and my wife doesn't have a clue that that's the point. 

I later (last night) added something to that assignment, if she'd like to take it. I asked my wife to come up with a list of things under the heading-

"Why should I have to... (fill in the blank)" Because ultimately that's what almost everything has come down to. She has a few good days doing things she's been told by the MC (and me for ages) would be good for our relationship, but then quickly comes back to "Why should I have to do this" and moves on. I think a "Why should I have to" list might give us something to talk about. I think I made a new point (to her) that the real issue is not what she does, or doesn't, do. But rather, why she continuously starts out on a good note and then goes back to her old ways. If we can get to "Why should I have to..." then maybe we can work on some core values instead of individual action items.

She means well, when she means well. She can display 100% affection 100% of the time to our dog and cat. It's within her capability to give love freely. She can be an exceptionally nice person. 

And again, I signed on for this being a LONG process. I didn't realize we would likely need the full year that our health plan is paying for, but pretty sure we will. The very fact that we're in a long term process is important, because it gives time for everything to come out and get dealt with. Will she just get frustrated and give up? I don't think so, but I can't be certain. Actively loving someone can be a daily task, almost a grind I guess? *In her perfect world, she'd toss away the meaningfulness of the stuff you have to work at, and keep only the things that are easy. * I bolded that as I typed it because it's an interesting concept, redefining "love" to be what you can easily do, and if it's hard, that's something else, that's not part of "love." This is something of an epiphany for me. Might be super-obvious to everyone else. 

As usual, thank you for your time and thoughts.


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## Casual Observer

*Latest update (after solo MC visit)*

Wife was down with the respiratory version of the flu (and yes, she had a flu shot three weeks prior). So, solo visit for me & the MC. Interesting chat; thought it would be all about me, but it was almost entirely about my wife. She seemed to be enjoying the appointment, saying I mentioned some things, insights, that she'd be able to use with some other patients she deals with. Hey, we're here to fix MY relationship!!! 

She asked if I thought my wife loved me. An odd question. Or maybe not. My wife loves me being there for her, in so many ways. But in the MCs view, she doesn't love me in the way that requires surrender, and thus the intimacy issues. I'll mention that, when I was answering this question, I was shaking. 

I gave a synopsis to my wife, sweetening it up a bit so it didn't seem like it was all about her, but nevertheless, she was upset that it was mostly all about her. And therein lies the ongoing issue. My wife will accept that it's things that she's done, in the past, in the present, that have created our issues. She'll accept that for... a few days. And then she goes into her "Why should I have to" mode. I told her that "gaming the system" by not telling her shrink or psychologist or individual counselor what her real issues were is no longer acceptable. It never was, but I didn't realize that's how she was playing the game. 

You have to want help, and act appropriately, to get help. I think?

Another observation- this was the first time I'd seen the MC taking notes. Extensive notes. Perhaps she's recognizing some of her own limitations, keeping track of different clients with different issues? I mention this because she brought up the subject of my wife's immediately-prior boyfriend, the one she omitted entirely from her life story, and the MC was acting like this was the first time she realized my wife had never, not once, mentioned the immediately-prior and most-intimate relationship to me while dating and vetting each other. All of a sudden it gained new significance to her. OK, so going forward I need to offer her a recap for context. Hey, she's 69 years old, I'll cut her some slack.

As referenced in another post, I had a pretty serious discussion with my wife this morning dealing with her unwillingness to truly accept, for more than a few days, her responsibility for things. In particular the way she makes no attempt to think how something she says or does is perceived by anyone else. An ongoing example from our marriage is when she has said, periodically, that sex just once or twice a month would be fine with her. I explained to her how that makes me feel, and that how it makes me feel should matter to her. I also explained that either I caused the infamous 60 to 0 decline in her libido the moment we first had sex, or something else did. If it wasn't me, then whatever that something else is, needs to be addressed. If it was me, then that needs to be addressed as well. There is not a "let it go" option available to her. 

And so it goes on. The reality is that this process is not at all what my wife expected. She thought the answer to Life, The Universe, and Everything, was going to be someone prescribing me sleeping pills and telling me this was long in the past and I just need to forget about it. But the good news is that my wife understands that this is not a past issue; it's a present issue caused by the past. Big difference. But she'd still like to wake up one day and find I had amnesia.


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## Blondilocks

Did it bother you that your wife made alternate arrangements for the feast? Did your daughter complain about her mom not doing the cooking?

It's a little concerning that you think your wife's decision to just take care of business is cause to rake her over the coals. Was she supposed to whine and whimper that she was just too ill and she sincerely hoped you and the rest of the adults living in the home would forgive her for her transgression of being ill? 

What would the alternative be? A person feeling under the weather standing around trying to supervise and teach a 31 year old daughter how to put together a feast? And, why doesn't your daughter already know how to do this? Why haven't you kicked her out of the nest?

You need to pick your battles. This was a petty thing to nit-pick. And, shows no compassion for your sick wife. Yes, she made the decision unilaterally because she is the one who would be doing the work.


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## oldtruck

so why the retroactive jealousy with you wife 42 years later?


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## jlg07

oldtruck said:


> so why the retroactive jealousy with you wife 42 years later?


Oldtruck, I don't see this as retroactive jealousy at all. I think (CO can correct me here) that he is upset because SOMETHING she did in the past was so traumatic to her that it, in essence, screwed up THEIR sex life together for the entire time they've been married, and now, it's just getting to him. I think finding the journal got him thinking, some things didn't add up, and he's decided to pursue this to find out WHY his wife is so repressed. Anyway, that's my take on it..


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## Openminded

It was a logical question for the therapist to ask. The answer likely is that your wife loves you as much as she’s capable of (the dog and cat are obviously a different situation). The real question is whether you will accept her as she is if she decides she’s tired of trying to be who you want.


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## In Absentia

jlg07 said:


> Oldtruck, I don't see this as retroactive jealousy at all. I think (CO can correct me here) that he is upset because SOMETHING she did in the past was so traumatic to her that it, in essence, screwed up THEIR sex life together for the entire time they've been married, and now, it's just getting to him. I think finding the journal got him thinking, some things didn't add up, and he's decided to pursue this to find out WHY his wife is so repressed. Anyway, that's my take on it..


Summarized 21 pages in 3 lines... fantastic! :smile2:


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## In Absentia

Openminded said:


> It was a logical question for the therapist to ask. The answer likely is that your wife loves you as much as she’s capable of (the dog and cat are obviously a different situation). The real question is whether you will accept her as she is if she decides she’s tired of trying to be who you want.


At least she loves him, in her own way...


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## Livvie

But it's for him to decide that if he determines she loves what he PROVIDES for her rather than HIM, if he wants to be in that kind of relationship. 



In Absentia said:


> Openminded said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was a logical question for the therapist to ask. The answer likely is that your wife loves you as much as she’s capable of (the dog and cat are obviously a different situation). The real question is whether you will accept her as she is if she decides she’s tired of trying to be who you want.
> 
> 
> 
> At least she loves him, in her own way...
Click to expand...


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## Openminded

In Absentia said:


> At least she loves him, in her own way...


That’s true for many. But how people love isn’t necessarily how the object of their love wants to be loved. It’s a very common issue and one that isn’t solved easily — if at all. Time will tell.


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## Casual Observer

Blondilocks said:


> Did it bother you that your wife made alternate arrangements for the feast? Did your daughter complain about her mom not doing the cooking?
> 
> It's a little concerning that you think your wife's decision to just take care of business is cause to rake her over the coals. Was she supposed to whine and whimper that she was just too ill and she sincerely hoped you and the rest of the adults living in the home would forgive her for her transgression of being ill?
> 
> What would the alternative be? A person feeling under the weather standing around trying to supervise and teach a 31 year old daughter how to put together a feast? And, why doesn't your daughter already know how to do this? Why haven't you kicked her out of the nest?
> 
> You need to pick your battles. This was a petty thing to nit-pick. And, shows no compassion for your sick wife. Yes, she made the decision unilaterally because she is the one who would be doing the work.


I didn't pick the battle; the battle came to me. My wife knew this would be a big issue for others in the family. For me? No. The issue was not buying the meal instead of cooking it. The issue was in how making a unilateral decision and not asking me what I thought. 

The words that will never come from her mouth- "What do you think about this?" Or "Could I have your opinion on something?" I ask her for advice on things frequently. Sometimes she'll have a great take on something and I change my mind. But if she's at odds with me and I don't change my mind, it becomes a personal thing to her. As in, why did I ask her?


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## Casual Observer

jlg07 said:


> Oldtruck, I don't see this as retroactive jealousy at all. I think (CO can correct me here) that he is upset because SOMETHING she did in the past was so traumatic to her that it, in essence, screwed up THEIR sex life together for the entire time they've been married, and now, it's just getting to him. I think finding the journal got him thinking, some things didn't add up, and he's decided to pursue this to find out WHY his wife is so repressed. Anyway, that's my take on it..


Yes, pretty much nailed it here. But it's not just the sex life that got screwed up. It took its toll in other areas as well. I don't think she'd have had the depression if she didn't experience what had to have been overwhelming guilt and anxiety each time she doubled-down on the false narrative.



In Absentia said:


> Summarized 21 pages in 3 lines... fantastic! :smile2:


Agreed!



In Absentia said:


> At least she loves him, in her own way...


This is true, but it's not enough. She goes to such trouble to try and conflate things that aren't related. No matter how I explain it, she tells me that the only thing "intimacy" means to me is sex. There's a huge difference between that and my belief that intimacy without sex is a non-starter. I don't just want sex. I want something I can have only with my wife, no other. I believe that's part of the attraction to marital sex. 



Livvie said:


> But it's for him to decide that if he determines she loves what he PROVIDES for her rather than HIM, if he wants to be in that kind of relationship.


And how much I'm willing to compromise.



Openminded said:


> That’s true for many. But how people love isn’t necessarily how the object of their love wants to be loved. It’s a very common issue and one that isn’t solved easily — if at all. Time will tell.


Life is complicated.


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## Casual Observer

*Update*

So, had a great vacation in Israel (first time there), renewed our wedding vows at the "Wedding Church" in Cana (where Jesus performed his first miracle, turning water into wine), and my wife seems totally committed to getting to the bottom of her issues with intimacy. 

She now "owns" the fact that she told me, during the first three decades of our marriage...
- Her preference would be for sex once or twice a month
- If sex was so important to me (speaking to me), I should go out and get a hooker
- She resented sex for 40 years (something said just a couple months ago)
- She sometimes equated sex with rape (because it was something she was doing for me that she didn't really want to). (Another fairly-recent revelation)

This is all big stuff. She now recognizes the damage that was done, and her "total commitment" includes IC to explore the roots of her light-switch change in libido the moment we first had sex and how a combination of guilt and prior trauma may have been responsible.

There was no shortage of intimacy (and sex) during the trip, with the final night being the best. Best night for me, sleeping, in many months. 

There was still a problematic blow-up dropping the rental car at the airport, because she had lost track of the page detailing how to return a rental car at TLV, and without it, we were lost, circling the airport for over an hours, Google not being of help until I figured out OK, it says we're here, but you can't get there from here because here is at the bottom of this parking garage. So I parked the car and walked down to the bottom, found the agency, got another detail page and, without further trouble, just another lap around the airport, got the car where it had to go. And then my wife proceeds to go ballistic about me not helping her pull luggage out of the car so she could look for the map... something she didn't ask for when I parked the car to go hike to the rental office. Somehow everything became my fault. She is so good at blame shifting. Hey, I'm not perfect, but when I screw up, I apologize for it, sometime beg forgiveness. That thought never occurred to her. Sigh. 

So we'll have a few things to talk about at the next counseling session Monday morning! 

She's trying. She just has an impossible time trying to see things from a different perspective. That's probably the most important thing to focus on in counseling. All the rest of the stuff... the lies & omissions & her willingness to stick to a plan for only a few days before wondering why? I think that all comes from her self-centered something-or-other. 

I don't know if that makes things tougher or easier. I want to believe easier, because I think this is at the core of everything. I'm hopeful.

But a great trip overall. She really enjoyed it. Me? I did not enjoy the rental car experience the last two days. Do *not* drive in Jerusalem, if you can avoid it. Or any other "old" city in Israel. It's a crazy experience, driving a car through roads build with clearances for ox carts. And no matter how empathetic your significant other, he or she really won't have a clue of the driving experience.


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## In Absentia

I admire your persistency...


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## Casual Observer

In Absentia said:


> I admire your persistency...


Our MC admires my “patience.” You call it persistency. Others say tilting at windmills.


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## Casual Observer

*Groundhog Day/50 First Dates issue*

Been a while since an update. Some ups, some downs. There's a whole lot of the movie "Groundhog Day" going on. My wife will "get it" for a day or two, and become empathetic and slightly vulnerable. But within 3 or 4 days she'll have found a way to rationalize to herself that change is not something she should have to do, that things aren't/weren't so bad because she doesn't think they were so bad. She is amazed at the changes (for the better) in me; doing more work around the house, lots more cleaning up, spending more time with her, anticipating her needs. She loves the new me. She didn't think it would last but it's been 10 months since the crisis and I've settled into new priorities that reflect how I think things should be. I've made the best of my crisis and my epiphany has been life-changing.

Her epiphany? I don't think it's really an epiphany if it's momentary. The problem, in a nutshell, is a core value for her of not being vulnerable. In a weak moment a week ago, she had talked about how, for her upcoming appointment with her psychologist, she was going to actually try and dig deep and admit things that she's always avoided talking about. If she does this, it could be a turning point for her. My fear? That her appointment will be on one of the 80% of her days where she becomes defensive and tries to convince herself that she's OK and therapy and discussion of her issues is a waste of time because it's already been dealt with.

The other day I was explaining to her that there was a missed opportunity, something which, if I'd realized one of our relatives was a high-end elite in an airline program, we might have gotten a sponsored upgrade to business class because the relative might have had expiring upgrade certificates that otherwise would have gone to waste. I was describing a "Dang, why didn't I think of that!" moment. I was done in a humorous, "stupid me" way. She got MAD at me for bringing this up, wondering why I would mention something so negative. I explained to her that, if I don't think about things, if I don't look at something that I did incorrectly and think about how I could have done better, I likely won't do better in the future. That we learn from our past mistakes and evolve. Her inability to grasp that is key. Every mistake she's made she's tried to bury and pretend didn't happen. 

So I'm really crossing my fingers on this upcoming appointment. I'm hoping that, in a "weak" moment (when she feels vulnerability is OK) that maybe she'll send an email to the psychologist ahead of time, bringing up what needs to be addressed. 

And if she doesn't? I will be explaining to her that all the best intentions come to nothing if she can't execute on them. That for all I know, when she seems to admit to needing real help, that being vulnerable and empathetic is something she needs... that those times could just be an act, something to get past the discussion so she can, as usual, move back to her normal self. 

Long way of saying, there will be a limit to the number of Groundhog Days going forward. 

My wife does love me. She is willing to do things. But long-ago issues removed the possibility of desire and spark in our relationship. She wants to pretend that everything has been really good these past 40 years, because that's the narrative she wants to maintain. At the same time, I truly believe she's beginning to understand I can't be shaken from her needing to make a choice, our marriage or her sense of pride & privacy. h


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## Holdingontoit

*Re: Update*



Casual Observer said:


> So, had a great vacation in Israel (first time there), renewed our wedding vows at the "Wedding Church" in Cana (where Jesus performed his first miracle, turning water into wine), and my wife seems totally committed to getting to the bottom of her issues with intimacy.


So glad to hear that your wife has decided to face her fear instead of hiding from it.

My wife admits she was raped (more than once), admits she has PTSD, but is unwilling to address it. I have decided this is NOT my "hill to die on". So I decided to never again have sex with her. My life. My choice.

I am glad that your wife seems to have chosen differently (or is at least considering it). Wishing both of you peace and healing on your journey. Hopefully itr continues to be together.


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## Blondilocks

"She's trying. She just has an impossible time trying to see things from a different perspective. That's probably the most important thing to focus on in counseling. All the rest of the stuff... the lies & omissions & her willingness to stick to a plan for only a few days before wondering why? *I think that all comes from her self-centered something-or-other.

I don't know if that makes things tougher or easier. I want to believe easier, because I think this is at the core of everything. I'm hopeful."*

Does your brain ever rebel at being twisted into knots? You think it (what is it?) will be easier if her self centeredness is at the core of everything. Why? Do you really think you or her therapist can talk her into not being self- centered? 

You renewing your vows is kinda the height of self-delusion and has completely removed any incentive your wife has to work on her issues because you have made it plain as day that you will put up with whatever she dishes out or withholds forevermore. That you are never going anywhere so you now *know* why her 'changes' only last for a few days. 

Stop shooting yourself in the foot and either pull the plug or resign yourself to your forevermore. It's your life - you can live it or whine about it.


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## In Absentia

Blondilocks said:


> You renewing your vows is kinda the height of self-delusion


Especially after 40+ years of marriage without complaining...


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## Affaircare

*Re: Groundhog Day/50 First Dates issue*



Casual Observer said:


> Been a while since an update. Some ups, some downs. There's a whole lot of the movie "Groundhog Day" going on. My wife will "get it" for a day or two, and become empathetic and slightly vulnerable. But within 3 or 4 days she'll have found a way to rationalize to herself that change is not something she should have to do, that things aren't/weren't so bad because she doesn't think they were so bad. She is amazed at the changes (for the better) in me; doing more work around the house, lots more cleaning up, spending more time with her, anticipating her needs. She loves the new me. She didn't think it would last but it's been 10 months since the crisis and I've settled into new priorities that reflect how I think things should be. I've made the best of my crisis and my epiphany has been life-changing.


 @Casual Observer, 

I would like to politely remind you that she has had nearly 40 years of practicing "rationalizing" why she doesn't need to face this. She had very literally DECADES of practice at not doing this and not facing that...so even "getting it" for a day or two is a little progress. I don't think it will take her decades to unlearn it, but it may well take more than 10 months. If I could suggest, it might make more sense to aim for 2-3 days of "getting it"...then 3-4 days of "getting it"...the 4-5 days of "getting it" etc. After she's getting it more than rationalizing, she'll hit a tipping point where she actually understands that she has to tear those walls completely down. Right now, I think it's more like she is pulling down a couple bricks at a time. Like I said, the day will come, if she keeps at it, that she'll suddenly see that she needs to knock down the whole, entire wall and leave it down. 



> Her epiphany? I don't think it's really an epiphany if it's momentary. The problem, in a nutshell, is a core value for her of not being vulnerable. In a weak moment a week ago, she had talked about how, for her upcoming appointment with her psychologist, she was going to actually try and dig deep and admit things that she's always avoided talking about. If she does this, it could be a turning point for her. My fear? That her appointment will be on one of the 80% of her days where she becomes defensive and tries to convince herself that she's OK and therapy and discussion of her issues is a waste of time because it's already been dealt with.


Being vulnerable is really scary. I know for my own self, being without the walls felt like a was naked, in public, and skinned...the emotions were so raw. Since she's had 4 decades of protecting herself, getting to the point of being willing to be that raw isn't going to come overnight. Like your wife, I was in my counseling actively and doing the homework etc. and it took me about 5 years to deal with it all. I'm not saying you will have to wait 5 years, but rather that it doesn't usually happen like an epiphany and one day it all becomes clear. It's more like taking down bricks, taking down bricks, taking down bricks...and when the wall is a good bit dismantled there is a point at which you realize "Whoa I have to become open and vulnerable ALL THE TIME and completely take that wall all the way down forever!" 

Also note to self: In her mind she is okay: she is no longer hurt and she is protected. In her mind it has been dealt with, because she put it in a box, put the box in a chest, put a lock on the chest, put chains around the chest, put the chest in a vault, put 492 locks on the vault, and put the vault behind several walls. It's dealt with: it has been "put away." 



> The other day I was explaining to her that there was a missed opportunity, something which, if I'd realized one of our relatives was a high-end elite in an airline program, we might have gotten a sponsored upgrade to business class because the relative might have had expiring upgrade certificates that otherwise would have gone to waste. I was describing a "Dang, why didn't I think of that!" moment. I was done in a humorous, "stupid me" way. She got MAD at me for bringing this up, wondering why I would mention something so negative. I explained to her that, if I don't think about things, if I don't look at something that I did incorrectly and think about how I could have done better, I likely won't do better in the future. That we learn from our past mistakes and evolve. Her inability to grasp that is key. Every mistake she's made she's tried to bury and pretend didn't happen.


So to some degree what you do is that if you do something you think is "wrong" (aka "incorrect") you admit, "Oh hey I did this wrong" to yourself, and then you think about it, look at where you went wrong, and think about how you could do it better next time. In summary, you learn from your mistakes. In HER life, if you admit you were "wrong" there is some harm that occurs. Now, it may not be from you--it may be that she was screamed at by her parents or raped or some other trauma. But in her head "wrong" = harm. So she had great difficulty admitting even to herself that she thinks something she did was "wrong" (aka "incorrect"). She doesn't admit it to herself, and thus, she doesn't think about it and if it does pop in her head she shuts it out. She doesn't look at where she went wrong because that would be admitting HARM into her life. And she doesn't think about how she could do better next time because she is protecting herself. Therefore, rather than learning from her mistakes, she buries them as if they never existed. And you are 100% correct--her ability to grasp this is KEY. When the time comes that she admits out loud to you that she was wrong, I don't care what it was (assuming it's short of big stuff like infidelity, etc.), BE AWARE of what she just did ...and reply in the world's safest way. Don't minimize or "oh that's not wrong" but rather something like, "Thank you for sharing. I feel close to you when you trust me like that." As an example, if she ever did say "I'm sorry I yelled at you about returning the rental car. I was stressed and just didn't deal with it well." the goal is for her to learn that she is safe when she is vulnerable and admits she is wrong. So something short and safe would be great: "Thank you for apologizing. I feel so much love for you when you trust me like that." Even if you deeply disagree, if she gave a try to admitting she was wrong or being vulnerable, just say "That is your opinion and I'm thankful you shared it with me" or something like that. 



> So I'm really crossing my fingers on this upcoming appointment. I'm hoping that, in a "weak" moment (when she feels vulnerability is OK) that maybe she'll send an email to the psychologist ahead of time, bringing up what needs to be addressed.
> 
> And if she doesn't? I will be explaining to her that all the best intentions come to nothing if she can't execute on them. That for all I know, when she seems to admit to needing real help, that being vulnerable and empathetic is something she needs... that those times could just be an act, something to get past the discussion so she can, as usual, move back to her normal self.
> 
> Long way of saying, there will be a limit to the number of Groundhog Days going forward.


You guys are in MC, right? Just to be clear, you may want to talk to your MC about this and see if it's on the path that is most likely to motivate her. I suspect you are kind of hoping she'll "take the leap" and start to see that she can be vulnerable with you, and yet threatening the security of the marriage may not be the way to encourage her to get there. I mean, if the issue is that vulnerable = harm...and you tell her "get vulnerable or you'll get harmed" I would think she'd likely stay in her shell behind the walls, not agree to be vulnerable. Ya know? I wonder if the MC might know you two better and have some suggestions that might be more motivational and encourage her rather than seeming like a threat. 

Meanwhile, I completely DO UNDERSTAND that she's not the only one in this relationship. The fact of the matter is that you've shown tremendous patience and there is a limit...and she needs to fully understand that the cost of saying "no" is the likely end of her security. So that message does need to be communicated, and I suspect the MC may be able to offer some guidance on how to do it in the healthiest manner. 



> My wife does love me. She is willing to do things. But long-ago issues removed the possibility of desire and spark in our relationship. She wants to pretend that everything has been really good these past 40 years, because that's the narrative she wants to maintain. At the same time, I truly believe she's beginning to understand I can't be shaken from her needing to make a choice, our marriage or her sense of pride & privacy.


So let me ask you this: if you had a "magic wand" and you could create the ideal outcome, what would it look like? I mean, you can't get those 40 years of "desire and spark" back--that's the past--so what would the current by like? What would the future be like? What does choosing the marriage over her sense of pride&privacy look like to you? 

I think what I'm asking is, in your opinion, what does the perfect end-goal look like?


----------



## Casual Observer

In Absentia said:


> Especially after 40+ years of marriage without complaining...


what is this nonsense about not complaining? Because I didn’t leave over it? It was a frequent source of contention. I thought I was part of the issue, maybe most, since there was so much guilt wrapped up in sex for some reason.

Her ears and mind were deaf to understanding what was going on. In so many other ways things were pretty good. Plus I really thought any deep- rooted psychological issues might have been from me. I felt guilty because I thought I was the one who screwed up her “saving herself” stuff. Quite the shock to discover it wasn’t me. 

She sees her psychologist this afternoon with her stated intent of dealing with her trauma. She’s still capable of back pedaling. She still wants to take the easy way out. Right now she’s about 50% of the time willing to face the music. That’s up from about 5%. So much greater chance today that she’ll get somewhere instead of rug sweep.


----------



## Casual Observer

*Re: Groundhog Day/50 First Dates issue*



Affaircare said:


> @Casual Observer,
> 
> I would like to politely remind you that she has had nearly 40 years of practicing "rationalizing" why she doesn't need to face this. She had very literally DECADES of practice at not doing this and not facing that...so even "getting it" for a day or two is a little progress. I don't think it will take her decades to unlearn it, but it may well take more than 10 months. If I could suggest, it might make more sense to aim for 2-3 days of "getting it"...then 3-4 days of "getting it"...the 4-5 days of "getting it" etc. After she's getting it more than rationalizing, she'll hit a tipping point where she actually understands that she has to tear those walls completely down. Right now, I think it's more like she is pulling down a couple bricks at a time. Like I said, the day will come, if she keeps at it, that she'll suddenly see that she needs to knock down the whole, entire wall and leave it down. But the conventional wisdom here is that it's not worth waiting for because I'm delusional thinking 40 years of behavior can change. So I think I've created a scenario to keep TAM happy in which I expect change more quickly than is likely. The flip side is that the longer it goes on, the more painful it is for my wife... so there's a balance between wanting to set a time limit and allowing enough time for it to get done, if that makes sense? And keep TAM happy too. It's a tough ask.
> 
> 
> 
> Being vulnerable is really scary. I know for my own self, being without the walls felt like a was naked, in public, and skinned...the emotions were so raw. Since she's had 4 decades of protecting herself, getting to the point of being willing to be that raw isn't going to come overnight. Like your wife, I was in my counseling actively and doing the homework etc. and it took me about 5 years to deal with it all. I'm not saying you will have to wait 5 years, but rather that it doesn't usually happen like an epiphany and one day it all becomes clear. It's more like taking down bricks, taking down bricks, taking down bricks...and when the wall is a good bit dismantled there is a point at which you realize "Whoa I have to become open and vulnerable ALL THE TIME and completely take that wall all the way down forever!"
> 
> Also note to self: In her mind she is okay: she is no longer hurt and she is protected. In her mind it has been dealt with, because she put it in a box, put the box in a chest, put a lock on the chest, put chains around the chest, put the chest in a vault, put 492 locks on the vault, and put the vault behind several walls. It's dealt with: it has been "put away." You've pretty much nailed it here. That's exactly the scenario, and from her perspective, she was OK living as she was, and now I'm expecting her to be not ok for a while. And that might fly if the "for a while" was a defined amount of time instead of "Until you get better or I give you and leave." Which feeds into the fear and thinking why now, why is this coming up after 40+ years, why can't we just live the rest of our lives in peace, why can't I hold onto my narrative that our life was good?
> 
> 
> 
> So to some degree what you do is that if you do something you think is "wrong" (aka "incorrect") you admit, "Oh hey I did this wrong" to yourself, and then you think about it, look at where you went wrong, and think about how you could do it better next time. In summary, you learn from your mistakes. In HER life, if you admit you were "wrong" there is some harm that occurs. Now, it may not be from you--it may be that she was screamed at by her parents or raped or some other trauma. But in her head "wrong" = harm. So she had great difficulty admitting even to herself that she thinks something she did was "wrong" (aka "incorrect"). She doesn't admit it to herself, and thus, she doesn't think about it and if it does pop in her head she shuts it out. She doesn't look at where she went wrong because that would be admitting HARM into her life. And she doesn't think about how she could do better next time because she is protecting herself. Therefore, rather than learning from her mistakes, she buries them as if they never existed. And you are 100% correct--her ability to grasp this is KEY. When the time comes that she admits out loud to you that she was wrong, I don't care what it was (assuming it's short of big stuff like infidelity, etc.), BE AWARE of what she just did ...and reply in the world's safest way. Don't minimize or "oh that's not wrong" but rather something like, "Thank you for sharing. I feel close to you when you trust me like that."  As an example, if she ever did say "I'm sorry I yelled at you about returning the rental car. I was stressed and just didn't deal with it well." the goal is for her to learn that she is safe when she is vulnerable and admits she is wrong. So something short and safe would be great: "Thank you for apologizing. I feel so much love for you when you trust me like that." Even if you deeply disagree, if she gave a try to admitting she was wrong or being vulnerable, just say "That is your opinion and I'm thankful you shared it with me" or something like that. Yes, absolutely, I'm looking for those moments to safely reinforce!!! They are relatively few & far between at the moment. The rental car thing? In her mind, there's nothing to think about, it was something that happened, discussing it makes it worse, apologizing brings it up again (which makes it worse). She is the exact opposite of me, which makes teachable examples rough because we're so... opposite. I look back at everything, just about everything that didn't go quite right, and think about how it might have gone better. I make belated apologies for things I did wrong. She would never ever question a prior (poor) decision because that means revisiting the pain. Thus she never apologizes for anything, even when she knows she did something wrong. It...is...so... foreign to me? And I'm so radically different that I don't think she can see wanting to view things like me. Does that make sense?
> 
> 
> 
> You guys are in MC, right? Just to be clear, you may want to talk to your MC about this and see if it's on the path that is most likely to motivate her. I suspect you are kind of hoping she'll "take the leap" and start to see that she can be vulnerable with you, and yet threatening the security of the marriage may not be the way to encourage her to get there. I mean, if the issue is that vulnerable = harm...and you tell her "get vulnerable or you'll get harmed" I would think she'd likely stay in her shell behind the walls, not agree to be vulnerable. Ya know? I wonder if the MC might know you two better and have some suggestions that might be more motivational and encourage her rather than seeming like a threat. Yes, we're in MC and our MC was pushing my wife to supply contact details to her psychologist so they could exchange information if the psychologist thought that might help. The MC to some extent has taken on the role of cheerleader for my wife, but the MC doesn't quite yet get the "Groundhog Day" thing and that accountability is something that does have to be dealt with. And of course accountability makes things seem threatening to her.
> 
> Meanwhile, I completely DO UNDERSTAND that she's not the only one in this relationship. The fact of the matter is that you've shown tremendous patience and there is a limit...and she needs to fully understand that the cost of saying "no" is the likely end of her security. So that message does need to be communicated, and I suspect the MC may be able to offer some guidance on how to do it in the healthiest manner. Yes, the irony of course is that the harder I work at trying to help, the more secure she gets in the idea that I'll do anything, including just let this lapse after a while, because I love her so much. So again that balance thing, and the idea that while it's not "all" about me, my needs and feelings are as important as hers.
> 
> 
> 
> So let me ask you this: if you had a "magic wand" and you could create the ideal outcome, what would it look like? I mean, you can't get those 40 years of "desire and spark" back--that's the past--so what would the current by like? What would the future be like? What does choosing the marriage over her sense of pride&privacy look like to you?
> 
> I think what I'm asking is, in your opinion, what does the perfect end-goal look like?


My perfect end-goal would be-

Vulnerability and truth are really the key things here. No lies, no holding back on something she thinks painful. An understanding of the huge difference between being willing to, and desire. Allowing herself to feel safe with me in marriage terms, not just as a friend. An understanding of how it feels to be told your wife has resented sex through the entire marriage and her thinking that's normal, that's OK, she doesn't need to address this, the answer is just to avoid intimacy. Getting rid of sex being associated with guilt.

Is that too much to ask?  Our MC doesn't think so. I'm hoping the psychologist thinks that's reasonable too, but the only way it would come up is if my wife allows herself to be vulnerable with the psychologist and being it up. I did explain to my wife that the psychologist is not there to judge her past, that she should feel safe bringing up the things that embarrass her and are most painful to talk about. 

I'm going to be sending my wife virtual safe hugs and a reassuring hand on her thigh all day long. Her appointment is at 2:30pm. And yes, I am nervous. Being very careful not to let that on. I'm very proud of her for making this step.


----------



## Casual Observer

*Re: Update*



Holdingontoit said:


> So glad to hear that your wife has decided to face her fear instead of hiding from it.
> 
> My wife admits she was raped (more than once), admits she has PTSD, but is unwilling to address it. I have decided this is NOT my "hill to die on". So I decided to never again have sex with her. My life. My choice.
> 
> I am glad that your wife seems to have chosen differently (or is at least considering it). Wishing both of you peace and healing on your journey. Hopefully itr continues to be together.


It's always possible we could end up exactly where you are. That the result of what is going on now will lead her to admit to the reason for her trauma/PTSD (because sex is definitely a trigger for her), but it doesn't lead to her actually dealing with the issue. 

We may have an advantage, or disadvantage, that what happened is so obvious. That her switch in libido was binary, not gradual. That she does remember some of the terribly mean things she's said to me and has some understanding of how that would make someone feel. I mean, she understands that now; she did not before. 

If it came to a decision never to have sex again, there would be interesting ramifications to that. Divorce? Changing the marriage vows? I think she's aware that, if I went even 10 days without sex, that her future would be changing significantly. That this is a hill the marriage would die on. That I was presently looking down a different road. That's just me. Not you. I get that.


----------



## Holdingontoit

*Re: Update*



Casual Observer said:


> It's always possible we could end up exactly where you are. That the result of what is going on now will lead her to admit to the reason for her trauma/PTSD (because sex is definitely a trigger for her), but it doesn't lead to her actually dealing with the issue.


I hpoe and pray that is not the outcome for you.



> We may have an advantage, or disadvantage, that what happened is so obvious. That her switch in libido was binary, not gradual. That she does remember some of the terribly mean things she's said to me and has some understanding of how that would make someone feel. I mean, she understands that now; she did not before.


Yes, that is an advantage. My wife's first experience with sex was non-consensual, so she has no frame of reference as to what her sexuality was like before the trauma.


----------



## Casual Observer

*Re: Update*



Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, that is an advantage. My wife's first experience with sex was non-consensual, so she has no frame of reference as to what her sexuality was like before the trauma.


I think we're seeing increasing evidence of how important that first sexual experience can shape the future for some. Not all, but some. If it's bad (not technique, not laughable, but regrettable in a serious way) and the person internalizes it because they have nobody to talk to about it, I think you and I have seen it become a hugely-negative thing down the road. Those of us who married a woman with fewer rather than more (whatever that means) prior sexual partners probably have it worse because greater experience probably brings out the issues more quickly, so that we spot it while dating. And those of us (men) who have less experience can't get as good a read on things either. We don't know if an issue is me or her. 

Again, and I'm a broken record on this, I think notions of privacy are huge. If you're an open person and you expect the same in your partner, and your partner actually isn't open... that's a disaster in the making. If both of you are ok with the past being the past, we'll create our own future together, maybe not so bad. Maybe. But if you're the vulnerable type, open, honest to a fault, and your partner thinks it's ok to let you believe they are too, when they're not? Train-wreck potential.


----------



## Casual Observer

*Wish me luck and the wisdom to not say something stupid*

Wife just called after her psychologist appointment. She was in a great mood. She said her psychologist is wonderful and they covered stuff that she thinks would have taken a year to get to from our MC. I sheepishly asked if there was any confirmation that some of the issues we've had were rooted in the deep past (42 years ago). She said yes, her eyes were opened, and she feels really good about things. 

My wife did ask me for help with a list of things to discuss with the psychologist, so there will be some interesting specifics to go over. Among those was whether her past repressed trauma could be responsible for the depression she's had. 

I am on pins & needles. I don't want to raise my hopes too high. But I am hopeful.


----------



## Affaircare

*Re: Update*



Casual Observer said:


> I think we're seeing increasing evidence of how important that first sexual experience can shape the future for some. Not all, but some. If it's bad (not technique, not laughable, but regrettable in a serious way) and the person internalizes it because they have nobody to talk to about it, I think you and I have seen it become a hugely-negative thing down the road. Those of us who married a woman with fewer rather than more (whatever that means) prior sexual partners probably have it worse because greater experience probably brings out the issues more quickly, so that we spot it while dating. And those of us (men) who have less experience can't get as good a read on things either. We don't know if an issue is me or her.


NOTE TO SELF: When I was 3yo I was deathly afraid of sleeping in bed with my mom and dad, because (this is the exact wording in my head) I would roll toward my dad and that was scary. When I was 18yo my mom and dad divorced and I went to college and was raped (drunk at a college party, not violent). When I was maybe 25yo my sister said that my dad had sexually abused her for years. 

I bring this up because when you say " ... how important that first sexual experience can shape the future for some. Not all, but some. ..." I want to remind you (and those reading along) that sometimes that first sexual experience occurs when someone is so young, they have no frame of reference. I definitely remember being deathly afraid of sleeping with my parents. I have no idea if my dad sexually abused me because at 3yo I would have had no idea what sex even was, what was a sexual act and what wasn't, etc. Make sense? In addition, my rape was my first sexual encounter, but I don't think you guys are saying that first one is a game-changer for everyone...just that it CAN BE. Like... if that first one was traumatic for any reason, or shameful, or ____ <insert issue here> it COULD BE something that has a ripple effect for the rest of that person's life. 



> Again, and I'm a broken record on this, I think notions of privacy are huge. If you're an open person and you expect the same in your partner, and your partner actually isn't open... that's a disaster in the making. If both of you are ok with the past being the past, we'll create our own future together, maybe not so bad. Maybe. But if you're the vulnerable type, open, honest to a fault, and your partner thinks it's ok to let you believe they are too, when they're not? Train-wreck potential.


Yeah I get this. If one partner is very open and the other is not, it is a disaster waiting to happen. The open partner will "find out" things the closed partner hid or outright lied about and feel betrayed. If both are open, they might look at their past indiscretions and grow closer. If both are closed, they might let the past be past and live for the present and future only. But privacy that becomes secrecy is a marriage killer.


----------



## Casual Observer

*Re: Update*



Affaircare said:


> NOTE TO SELF: When I was 3yo I was deathly afraid of sleeping in bed with my mom and dad, because (this is the exact wording in my head) I would roll toward my dad and that was scary. When I was 18yo my mom and dad divorced and I went to college and was raped (drunk at a college party, not violent). When I was maybe 25yo my sister said that my dad had sexually abused her for years.
> 
> I bring this up because when you say " ... how important that first sexual experience can shape the future for some. Not all, but some. ..." I want to remind you (and those reading along) that sometimes that first sexual experience occurs when someone is so young, they have no frame of reference. I definitely remember being deathly afraid of sleeping with my parents. I have no idea if my dad sexually abused me because at 3yo I would have had no idea what sex even was, what was a sexual act and what wasn't, etc. Make sense? In addition, my rape was my first sexual encounter, but I don't think you guys are saying that first one is a game-changer for everyone...just that it CAN BE. Like... if that first one was traumatic for any reason, or shameful, or ____ <insert issue here> it COULD BE something that has a ripple effect for the rest of that person's life.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I get this. If one partner is very open and the other is not, it is a disaster waiting to happen. The open partner will "find out" things the closed partner hid or outright lied about and feel betrayed. If both are open, they might look at their past indiscretions and grow closer. If both are closed, they might let the past be past and live for the present and future only. But privacy that becomes secrecy is a marriage killer.


So sorry to hear about what went on, or the questions about what might have gone on, when you were young. But at some point you were able to process things and become the person you are today instead of the person you might have become had all this remained hidden. You chose to deal with things. You possibly had people you could talk with at the time? For my wife, she was basically leading two separate lives, one in church, one outside. All of her friends were in church. She hid everything, shared nothing.

It's not just a young woman thing. If I didn't have a good friend to confide in back in the day, my first time, and what followed, would have been much more challenging for me. But talking things over with a very good friend, there was added confidence in both success or failure not being something that would forever define me. My first time was with a girlfriend of almost two years. Freshman year in college. She was probably wondering what took me so long. I cried afterward. It was a big thing going in (so to speak?) and a big thing afterward. Scared as, well, f***. Used two condoms to be extra careful (didn't realize that was a bad idea). Didn't know what we were doing. Predictably didn't take long. BUT- what's very different from my wife's apparent experience, there were no regrets, this wasn't all about a skyrocket experience, and we went on a couple more times that evening and things got very good very quickly. So imagine my wife's experience, she was expecting the skyrockets, hoping sex would be this awesome ultra-orgasmic thing with this prior guy, and all she had was pain and confusion and regret afterward. A sense of being punished for what she'd done (by not enjoying it). And then her boyfriend disappeared for three days. All of this comes from her diary, all of which was completely denied and locked away before meeting me. And she had nobody, absolutely nobody, to talk with about it. Just her diary, and after that experience, she didn't write one word again about being horny, which prior to that had been the theme of her diary the past two years.

How much of this she went over with her psychologist, I don't know. But it sounds like at least some of it. My best hope is that she no longer sees shame for what went on, way back when. No longer sees it as something to suppress or lie about. Not something that defines her in any way.

Thank goodness for close friends.


----------



## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> what is this nonsense about not complaining? *Because I didn’t leave over it?*


Yes! She didn't believe it was such a serious problem for you. Because you never acted on your discontent.


----------



## In Absentia

*Re: Wish me luck and the wisdom to not say something stupid*



Casual Observer said:


> I am on pins & needles. I don't want to raise my hopes too high. But I am hopeful.


Good news!


----------



## Casual Observer

*Re: Wish me luck and the wisdom to not say something stupid*



In Absentia said:


> Good news!


Well, it's a process. Things went kinda upside-down from what I expected. The good news? The psychologist absolutely thinks she experienced a trauma that caused her issues with sex, particularly vaginismis the first 12 years, and the whole light-switch thing of going from high libido to zero libido when we first had sex. The bad news... my wife inadvertently (I think? I really don't believe it was deliberate) led her psychologist down a path where the psychologist was supporting the idea that the trauma happened at that time, not earlier. And who knows, maybe it was.

The tough part about thinking her trauma was caused by first-time sex with me, instead of someone else, is that it means she had no issues with a number of guys who had no respect for her whatsoever, one of whom was in it 100% just for sex, which she knew at the time. And she got through all that just fine. What does that make me look like? It's an interesting ride, to be sure! 

(The original question for the psychologist was to see if her repressed memories about the sexual "event" with that prior guy could have caused her trauma. The hypothetical being, if she'd had sex and was terribly ashamed of it, which is how things went down in her diary, would that first-time regretted sex be capable of extensive trauma? Somehow the question changed to "Could regrets over first time sex cause trauma?" And the first-time sex she spoke about was with me...")


----------



## Affaircare

Okay I’m sorry. She’s trying to say that having sex with you that first time was so “traumatic” that she stayed married to you for 40 years? 

I believe my :bsflag: meter just went off. She’s avoiding.


----------



## Casual Observer

Affaircare said:


> Okay I’m sorry. She’s trying to say that having sex with you that first time was so “traumatic” that she stayed married to you for 40 years?
> 
> I believe my :bsflag: meter just went off. She’s avoiding.


No, it's not like that at all. The psychologist was validating the idea that sex was at odds with her core beliefs and that first-time sex is capable of causing trauma. Since my wife is still not wanting to believe she was the same woman who wrote what she wrote in the diary, any reference to first-time sex goes to me. She's going to clarify things with the psychiatrist, sending her the diary entries. My wife re-read those diary entries today, and they caused what she called "a deep dark pit in her stomach." She's coming around. We went over things tonight, how basically the psychologist is saying that the grief she went through before she met me, the highly manipulative relationship that was all about sex, was less traumatic than what she experienced with me. 

It's slow. The psychiatrist and MC have agreed to swap notes with each other, and my wife has recognized the need to set the psychiatrist straight about what was traumatic and what wasn't. I'll admit there's been a lot of soul-searching on my part as to whether I did play a part in her trauma. For a number of years, that light-switch thing where she went from high to non-existant libido after that first time we had sex, I worried that she felt guilty about it and that I hadn't shown enough respect for her wishes. Even though she had determined when was when. 

OK, yes, she did "avoid" but I really do believe she's gradually coming around.

*Added next day- *This morning my wife did send more info to her psychologist, saying that after she came home and shared her visit with me, "we both came to some eye opening revelations about our pasts" and forwarded her diary entries "to see if you can gleen any insight as to what any trauma may or many not have happened to me that would have affected me and my relationship with my husband in the future" and "No memory if it at all, just the written word, and all these words seem very foreign to me. Which may indicate the importance in terms of it being traumatic."

That's a very big step for her. Just sending the diary entries was something she was hesitant to do, because of what they said about her past. And I had to explain that she's not going to get help if she holds back from the professionals trying to help her. In think, @Affaircare, this is relevant to your suggestion she's still avoiding. She *wants* to avoid, but today's efforts have taken that ship out of safe harbor. She can't put this genie back in the bottle; she knew that when she hit the "send" key.


----------



## Affaircare

Casual Observer said:


> *Added next day- *This morning my wife did send more info to her psychologist, saying that after she came home and shared her visit with me, "we both came to some eye opening revelations about our pasts" and forwarded her diary entries "to see if you can gleen any insight as to what any trauma may or many not have happened to me that would have affected me and my relationship with my husband in the future" and "No memory if it at all, just the written word, and all these words seem very foreign to me. Which may indicate the importance in terms of it being traumatic."
> 
> That's a very big step for her. Just sending the diary entries was something she was hesitant to do, because of what they said about her past. And I had to explain that she's not going to get help if she holds back from the professionals trying to help her. *I think, @Affaircare, this is relevant to your suggestion she's still avoiding. She wants to avoid, but today's efforts have taken that ship out of safe harbor. She can't put this genie back in the bottle; she knew that when she hit the "send" key.*


 @Casual Observer,

One of the hardest things to get past in a traumatic situation is when you are avoiding even letting your mind "go there." As an example, since my sister has said that she was sexually abused by my dad, the first thought I had was "Oh that couldn't be!" In other words, you don't even let your mind consider the possibility--it's as if it's just SHUT to that even being possible. In order to not avoid, I had to let my mind "go there" and consider that maybe it COULD be...and thus open up myself to the possibility that maybe I also had something happen. In other words, instead of avoiding, you let yourself think "Well...maybe..." When someone has been avoiding, what their mind is thinking is "NO WAY!!" and it's like behind a wall and the possibility is not even allowed to be considered. 

Therefore, I'm encouraged that she's opened to the possiblity of thinking "Maybe..." She has no memory because her mind "put it away" and after her mind put it away, she closed it to even thinking about the possibility of maybe. Now, she has read her own words, and she's saying "Well...maybe a trauma did occur and it may have been before him..." It's my hope that the counselor can help her feel safe enough to remember it.


----------



## Casual Observer

Affaircare said:


> @Casual Observer,
> 
> One of the hardest things to get past in a traumatic situation is when you are avoiding even letting your mind "go there." As an example, since my sister has said that she was sexually abused by my dad, the first thought I had was "Oh that couldn't be!" In other words, you don't even let your mind consider the possibility--it's as if it's just SHUT to that even being possible. In order to not avoid, I had to let my mind "go there" and consider that maybe it COULD be...and thus open up myself to the possibility that maybe I also had something happen. In other words, instead of avoiding, you let yourself think "Well...maybe..." When someone has been avoiding, what their mind is thinking is "NO WAY!!" and it's like behind a wall and the possibility is not even allowed to be considered.
> 
> Therefore, I'm encouraged that she's opened to the possiblity of thinking "Maybe..." She has no memory because her mind "put it away" and after her mind put it away, she closed it to even thinking about the possibility of maybe. Now, she has read her own words, and she's saying "Well...maybe a trauma did occur and it may have been before him..." It's my hope that the counselor can help her feel safe enough to remember it.


Interesting and unexpected development tonight. I was talking with her about the trauma, and she's now fully aware that it needs to be uncovered and dealt with. She's concerned the missing memories won't come back, but I explained to her that her pretty thorough notes in her diary lay things out pretty well and provide some assurance of real memories coming out, which isn't always the case. And then she dropped a mini-bombshell. She entertained the possibility that she'd been raped. That will be an interesting path to follow. The guy was definitely a smooth operator and turned her thinking inside-out, but from what's in the diary, rape seems unlikely. She maintained a friendly relationship with the guy and even encountered him (amicably and without awkwardness) in 4H work about 20 years ago, but who knows. It's also possible that she feels better about the idea that she'd been raped rather than made some of the choices on her own. In the end, it may not matter, because the goal here is to recover, examine and process the trauma so she can move forward and not have it continue to affect her views of intimacy in particular and perhaps men in general. Whether the source of that trauma was rape, coerced sex, or just a decision she severely regretted, may have little distinction.


----------



## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> Whether the source of that trauma was rape, coerced sex, or just a decision she severely regretted, may have little distinction.



It does to her... :wink2: It's another attempt to deny reality. You have your work cut out...


----------



## Casual Observer

In Absentia said:


> It does to her... :wink2: It's another attempt to deny reality. You have your work cut out...


Well... the MC pretty much decided that it was not rape, but that she did have sex and severe guilt afterward. The key takeaway from the session was when the MC was asking about how she grew up, what was behind her need to seek attention from guys using sex as a tool rather than a relationship builder. It got interesting when it came to talking about her father and how things were handled when she did something wrong. "The punishment had to fit the crime." That was his thing. Appropriate & reciprocal or whatever. Never, ever, an opportunity to learn from it. It was all about punishment. That's how she sees things herself. So what would the self-punishment be for a good Christian girl having sex with a guy she'd known for just a few weeks? Initially, severe guilt, and to live with it, denial it ever happened.

I was stunned that my wife was opening up like this. She was relatively calm; I was shaking like a leaf in the breeze. I spent a few minutes with the MC after my wife left to use the bathroom and asked if she could send an email (to my wife) of support & encouragement. My wife needs that right now. What she did was a pretty big thing. 

The remaining stumbling block for her is understanding why it's important for her to actually remember rather than just assume it did. I'm not even sure I know the answer to that myself.

(The MC did suggest something I thought a bit nuts; she feels strongly enough that my wife needs to remember everything that she said she should call the guy and ask about his recollections. Yikes. First off, the guy is a lawyer and makes money convincing people to see things his way. Second, he's going to be super-apprehensive and wonder if the next sentence is "There's someone I'd like you to meet. He's 42 and looks a lot like you."

That's not going to happen. But I am going to drive her by the house where things happened to see if that brings anything back. AFTER the MC explains to my wife why it makes sense that she recover the memories, because otherwise it's just kinda like torture I think?)


----------



## Marduk

Casual Observer said:


> Well... the MC pretty much decided that it was not rape, but that she did have sex and severe guilt afterward. The key takeaway from the session was when the MC was asking about how she grew up, what was behind her need to seek attention from guys using sex as a tool rather than a relationship builder. It got interesting when it came to talking about her father and how things were handled when she did something wrong. "The punishment had to fit the crime." That was his thing. Appropriate & reciprocal or whatever. Never, ever, an opportunity to learn from it. It was all about punishment. That's how she sees things herself. So what would the self-punishment be for a good Christian girl having sex with a guy she'd known for just a few weeks? Initially, severe guilt, and to live with it, denial it ever happened.
> 
> I was stunned that my wife was opening up like this. She was relatively calm; I was shaking like a leaf in the breeze. I spent a few minutes with the MC after my wife left to use the bathroom and asked if she could send an email (to my wife) of support & encouragement. My wife needs that right now. What she did was a pretty big thing.
> 
> The remaining stumbling block for her is understanding why it's important for her to actually remember rather than just assume it did. I'm not even sure I know the answer to that myself.
> 
> (The MC did suggest something I thought a bit nuts; she feels strongly enough that my wife needs to remember everything that she said she should call the guy and ask about his recollections. Yikes. First off, the guy is a lawyer and makes money convincing people to see things his way. Second, he's going to be super-apprehensive and wonder if the next sentence is "There's someone I'd like you to meet. He's 42 and looks a lot like you."
> 
> That's not going to happen. But I am going to drive her by the house where things happened to see if that brings anything back. AFTER the MC explains to my wife why it makes sense that she recover the memories, because otherwise it's just kinda like torture I think?)


The MC is very, very wrong with the advice regarding calling the guy. 

That is a recipe for mind-****ery and trauma. If he was the kind of guy that would mess with a person like this, then he’s likely to still be a person that would do that. 

I highly recommend the book “the body keeps the score.” And keeping the therapist in check - it seems like great progress is being made, so maybe not firing them, but for sure setting some boundaries.


----------



## Casual Observer

Marduk said:


> The MC is very, very wrong with the advice regarding calling the guy.
> 
> That is a recipe for mind-****ery and trauma. If he was the kind of guy that would mess with a person like this, then he’s likely to still be a person that would do that.
> 
> I highly recommend the book “the body keeps the score.” And keeping the therapist in check - it seems like great progress is being made, so maybe not firing them, but for sure setting some boundaries.


As I said, regarding my wife contacting the guy, that's not going to happen. 

I was really liking what I'd read about "The Body Keeps The Score" until I saw a review talking about research on dogs involving pain. I could deal with that, but if my wife even caught a wiff of that, OMG it would be bad. So seriously bad. 

I believe I can keep the MC in line. We have a dialog separate from the MC sessions and I think she seriously wants to help my wife, and my wife doesn't at all feel threatened by her. Some of the tougher subjects I've learned not to bring up at all outside of the safety of the MC sessions. But, I think today we broke through that need. 

Speaking of needs, I really do need to find something that supports, in layman's terms, why it's so important that she actually recall the trauma. I can read the dense medical journal stuff and make sense of it, but she wouldn't, and I shouldn't be paraphrasing anything for her. She needs an authentic source that's not me, for credibility. 

I really want to avoid getting into that "OK, it's done, now what? Can't we just move on?" before things are completed. 

There's another interesting thing here. How am I supposed to feel now? The overwhelming feeling is one of relief, and so far, I've not had any weird thoughts of some "other guy" doing things to my wife (who I didn't even know at the time) that caused her and our relationship so much grief. Am I going to get angry? Jealous? I initially thought that my wife's omissions and lies would be a huge deal for me, but I'm able to buy into the trauma aspect of this enough to let her off the hook. 

Guess the next "heavy" decision is when to suggest we drive by "the house." I think I should be there with her. It's here in town, just a 10 or 15 minute round trip. Google street view doesn't capture enough as the house is built slightly down a hillside. Film at 11.


----------



## Marduk

Casual Observer said:


> As I said, regarding my wife contacting the guy, that's not going to happen.
> 
> I was really liking what I'd read about "The Body Keeps The Score" until I saw a review talking about research on dogs involving pain. I could deal with that, but if my wife even caught a wiff of that, OMG it would be bad. So seriously bad.
> 
> I believe I can keep the MC in line. We have a dialog separate from the MC sessions and I think she seriously wants to help my wife, and my wife doesn't at all feel threatened by her. Some of the tougher subjects I've learned not to bring up at all outside of the safety of the MC sessions. But, I think today we broke through that need.
> 
> Speaking of needs, I really do need to find something that supports, in layman's terms, why it's so important that she actually recall the trauma. I can read the dense medical journal stuff and make sense of it, but she wouldn't, and I shouldn't be paraphrasing anything for her. She needs an authentic source that's not me, for credibility.
> 
> I really want to avoid getting into that "OK, it's done, now what? Can't we just move on?" before things are completed.
> 
> There's another interesting thing here. How am I supposed to feel now? The overwhelming feeling is one of relief, and so far, I've not had any weird thoughts of some "other guy" doing things to my wife (who I didn't even know at the time) that caused her and our relationship so much grief. Am I going to get angry? Jealous? I initially thought that my wife's omissions and lies would be a huge deal for me, but I'm able to buy into the trauma aspect of this enough to let her off the hook.
> 
> Guess the next "heavy" decision is when to suggest we drive by "the house." I think I should be there with her. It's here in town, just a 10 or 15 minute round trip. Google street view doesn't capture enough as the house is built slightly down a hillside. Film at 11.


Listen, man. Me to you, one spouse of a survivor to another. We get lost in the shuffle with this. 

We get to live with a difficult, sometimes abusive spouse. We get to have our needs systematically not met. We get to have our emotional state be a secondary issue at best. 

It’s lonely, difficult, gruelling, and mostly thankless work. But we do it because we have to. 

So having said all that, what is your support system? Who do you have to go to unload on? Help you out? Buy you a beer and tell you it will be ok?


----------



## Casual Observer

Marduk said:


> Listen, man. Me to you, one spouse of a survivor to another. We get lost in the shuffle with this.
> 
> We get to live with a difficult, sometimes abusive spouse. We get to have our needs systematically not met. We get to have our emotional state be a secondary issue at best.
> 
> It’s lonely, difficult, gruelling, and mostly thankless work. But we do it because we have to.
> 
> So having said all that, what is your support system? Who do you have to go to unload on? Help you out? Buy you a beer and tell you it will be ok?


My support system... that's tough. I think writing (not just here) is a big part of it. It's kind of cruel that I subject TAM members to my nearly-real-time support needs(?) but people can always block my posts, right? The beer thing... never been a drinker, a big year for me might be 6 drinks. My friends in Wisconsin (in a coastal guy) don't understand me; they "get" people who can't drink, and people who drink too much. Someone who could drink, and generally doesn't... doesn't computer for them.

Thank you for making time to check in on my journey and keep an eye on my sanity.


----------



## Marduk

Casual Observer said:


> My support system... that's tough. I think writing (not just here) is a big part of it. It's kind of cruel that I subject TAM members to my nearly-real-time support needs(?) but people can always block my posts, right? The beer thing... never been a drinker, a big year for me might be 6 drinks. My friends in Wisconsin (in a coastal guy) don't understand me; they "get" people who can't drink, and people who drink too much. Someone who could drink, and generally doesn't... doesn't computer for them.
> 
> Thank you for making time to check in on my journey and keep an eye on my sanity.


You know what I mean, man. 

I know it’s a lonely road and most people don’t get the burdens you carry. She’s focused on herself, the therapist is focused on her, and so are you. 

If you need to unburden yourself here or via pm man, I’m here.


----------



## Affaircare

Casual Observer said:


> ... Speaking of needs, I really do need to find something that supports, in layman's terms, why it's so important that she actually recall the trauma. I can read the dense medical journal stuff and make sense of it, but she wouldn't, and I shouldn't be paraphrasing anything for her. She needs an authentic source that's not me, for credibility.
> 
> I really want to avoid getting into that "OK, it's done, now what? Can't we just move on?" before things are completed.


I have two resources for you. First, if your wife is a reader, she may like this article in Psychology Today: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/workings-well-being/201708/heal-trauma-work-the-body

Now, that site isn't a science digest, and it's in pretty much layman's terms, so from reading that article it is conceivable that she (and you) may "get" why she has to remember it. 

Second, both as someone who is also a survivor, and as someone who worked with rape victims, here's why you remember it:

When you go through normal life, your brain tells you "process this" and "remember that" and stores it away in the old memory bank. But when something traumatic happens, you freak out and "fight or flight" kicks in. That's why people only remember their traumas in bits and pieces that sort of sound like remembering 'little details'--in real life, the ONLY thing remembered is a bit here and a bit there...and the rest is like a huge, weird adrenalin rush. Your brain has no time to process and isn't told to "remember that" so it doesn't. All that happens is your brain screams "YOU'RE IN DANGER! GET TO SAFETY!" So depending on the trauma, how it occurred and what occurred, you might remember a smell or a fabric pattern and this DEEPLY INTENSE desire to get to safety (like hide, disappear, whatever). 

In order to actually HEAL the trauma, no matter what age the person is, they need to remember it, process it, and deal with it--face it. So for me, I had to remember some truly horrible things that happened to me--things that when I say them, sound HORRIFIC but when they were happening to me felt mostly like I was afraid and I wanted to live (or get through it). I had to remember so that the voice inside my head that screams at me when I hear a certain door creak...doesn't scream. I had to remember so that the voices inside my head stopped judging ME and started judging those who were adults. I had to remember so that I could regain some self-worth and know that I could protect my own self. I had to learn new ways of reacting to the memories. I had to remember because I was reacting in the present as if what happened in the past was happening now...and it wasn't. I reacted that way because even when your mind doesn't remember, your body does. Your body remembers a smell, a sight, a sound, a touch, or a taste, and BOOM you are right back there (only of course, you're not. You're really in the present, but your body feels that same feeling as the past and is still kind of stuck there.)

Even now, the occasion thing will trigger that PTSD type feeling, but I've learned "Oh when I'm triggering, I hold my breath so I don't say what I really think and feel I'm holding my breath now. Could I be triggering?" I had to learn that I feel a weight in my chest from literally holding back words and tears and expressing emotion, so when I feel that weight, I check myself. And when I recognize I am triggering, I know how to keep myself in the present--I had to learn ways to stay HERE rather than having that automatic physical response that started way back THERE.


----------



## Casual Observer

@Affaircare & @Marduk -

The recovery of her memories of the event are already painful for her and not surprisingly she's already made some attempts to avoid it. For example, she was certain she wouldn't have to revisit the house where things happened because she had no idea where it was. Well there's this thing called the Internet so it wasn't tough to find. Will she go? That was spoken of this morning. I asked if she'd like me to come with her. It was an almost but not-quite-defiant no. She said maybe she could revisit afterward with me. 

So... what would a reasonable timeframe be for her to make an effort? Normally I'd go along with the idea that someone needs "space" and time to deal with something like this. Don't rush it. But knowing my wife, and I told her this, she's only got about 4 days before she decides this path is a mistake. If she doesn't involve the triumvirate... her psychologist, her MC and herself... in this mission quickly, then it goes by the wayside. She needs all three for accountability. Right now the MC is strongly behind this, the psychologist is lagging slightly because she hasn't received the latest info, and my wife needs to take the next step.

So. How long do I give her for the next step. Should I just stand aside and let things happen... or not? Does recovery from Trauma/recovery of memories involve me at all, or is this a journey she has to take entirely on her own?

And still looking for that really definitive piece on trauma that explains why the memories need to be recovered. So many of these articles talk about triggers, but don't explain how you can have a trigger for something you don't actually recall.

Thanks-


----------



## Marduk

Casual Observer said:


> @Affaircare & @Marduk -
> 
> The recovery of her memories of the event are already painful for her and not surprisingly she's already made some attempts to avoid it. For example, she was certain she wouldn't have to revisit the house where things happened because she had no idea where it was. Well there's this thing called the Internet so it wasn't tough to find. Will she go? That was spoken of this morning. I asked if she'd like me to come with her. It was an almost but not-quite-defiant no. She said maybe she could revisit afterward with me.


She could be trying to protect you from whatever explicit memories come up (which may traumatize or upset you), or she be worried your presence will cause her to censor herself, or she could just be worried you'll be a distraction.

I'd let her go on her own if that's what she wants. What I got reinforced from the moment I picked up the phone and contacted a sexual assault hotline was that this stuff is first and foremost a denial of power over their own bodies. Which means you have to give them all the power you can in every decision about how to proceed, and to be extremely careful not to make it about yourself. 



> So... what would a reasonable timeframe be for her to make an effort? Normally I'd go along with the idea that someone needs "space" and time to deal with something like this. Don't rush it. But knowing my wife, and I told her this, she's only got about 4 days before she decides this path is a mistake. If she doesn't involve the triumvirate... her psychologist, her MC and herself... in this mission quickly, then it goes by the wayside. She needs all three for accountability. Right now the MC is strongly behind this, the psychologist is lagging slightly because she hasn't received the latest info, and my wife needs to take the next step.


I have no idea. We didn't have to deal with repressed memories, but I did find this:


> It’s only natural to want to avoid painful memories and feelings. But if you try to numb yourself and push your memories away, PTSD will only get worse. You can’t escape your emotions completely—they emerge under stress or whenever you let down your guard—and trying to do so is exhausting. The avoidance will ultimately harm your relationships, your ability to function, and the quality of your life.


https://www.helpguide.org/articles/ptsd-trauma/ptsd-symptoms-self-help-treatment.htm

So maybe recovering the memories is a good idea. I'd defer to the psychologist and perhaps engage a psychiatrist on this one.



> So. How long do I give her for the next step. Should I just stand aside and let things happen... or not? Does recovery from Trauma/recovery of memories involve me at all, or is this a journey she has to take entirely on her own?


Be her cheerleader - meaning let her run with the ball and let her know you're there for her in whatever capacity she needs when she chooses to need it. If she doesn't want you involved, then don't be. But stand ready to pick up the pieces, I guess.



> And still looking for that really definitive piece on trauma that explains why the memories need to be recovered. So many of these articles talk about triggers, but don't explain how you can have a trigger for something you don't actually recall.
> 
> Thanks-


Here's some stuff I found googling, maybe it will help?



> Some stressful experiences -- such as chronic childhood abuse -- are so overwhelming and traumatic, the memories hide like a shadow in the brain.
> 
> At first, hidden memories that can't be consciously accessed may protect the individual from the emotional pain of recalling the event. But eventually those suppressed memories can cause debilitating psychological problems, such as anxiety, depression, post-traumatic stress disorder or dissociative disorders.
> 
> A process known as state-dependent learning is believed to contribute to the formation of memories that are inaccessible to normal consciousness. Thus, memories formed in a particular mood, arousal or drug-induced state can best be retrieved when the brain is back in that state.
> 
> In a new study with mice, Northwestern Medicine scientists have discovered for the first time the mechanism by which state-dependent learning renders stressful fear-related memories consciously inaccessible.
> 
> "The findings show there are multiple pathways to storage of fear-inducing memories, and we identified an important one for fear-related memories," said principal investigator Dr. Jelena Radulovic, the Dunbar Professor in Bipolar Disease at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine. "This could eventually lead to new treatments for patients with psychiatric disorders for whom conscious access to their traumatic memories is needed if they are to recover."
> 
> It's difficult for therapists to help these patients, Radulovic said, because the patients themselves can't remember their traumatic experiences that are the root cause of their symptoms.
> 
> The best way to access the memories in this system is to return the brain to the same state of consciousness as when the memory was encoded, the study showed.


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150817132325.htm



> Avoidance of reminders of the trauma is another core symptom of PTSD. These reminders include people, situations or circumstances resembling or associated with the event. Sufferers from PTSD often try to push memories of the event out of their mind and avoid thinking or talking about it in detail, particularly about its worst moments. On the other hand, many ruminate excessively about questions that prevent them from coming to terms with the event, for example about why the event happened to them, about how it could have been prevented or about how they could take revenge...
> People with PTSD may experience a peri-traumatic dissociation (a dissociative reaction at the time of the trauma), which may subsequently be associated with the complaint of psychogenic amnesia for an aspect of the traumatic event. The disorder is also associated with an increased rate of other dissociative symptoms. Indeed, in the preparation for the publication of DSM–IV, there was discussion as to whether PTSD should be listed as a dissociative disorder rather than an anxiety disorder (see Brett, 1993)...
> 2.4.5. Unhelpful coping strategies
> Trauma memories are painful and PTSD symptoms are distressing. In their efforts to cope with the event and the symptoms they are experiencing, trauma survivors may resort to a range of coping strategies that appear to be helpful at the time, but prolong or exacerbate symptoms. These include effortful suppression of trauma memories and emotions, rumination about the event, dissociation, social withdrawal, avoidance and substance use (e.g. Ehlers & Clark, 2000).


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK56506/

The following is interesting as well. It's a research document on memory distortions with PTSD:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4337233/


----------



## Affaircare

@Casual Observer, 

When I went to counseling, I WANTED to remember so I could heal it and do better. See...it's not like you utterly "forget." For me, I didn't forget that I was abused, but rather, I had pieces of the memories and other pieces were fuzzy-ish. Now for me, I was physically beaten by my mother on a daily basis, screamed at for hours on a daily basis, and a couple times there were especially horrible "punishments" given to me that pretty much blew my mind. So I remembered being called names, being screamed at, hearing ultra-religious stuff that didn't sound very christian or loving to me, being blamed, being hit with a board, being hit with a brush, being hit with a rolling pin, being hit with a tree branch (like a willow switch), being hit with a broom handle...every day from my shoulders to my knees just swinging wildly until she was tired from hitting me. I remember literally biting my tongue and my lips because part of what she wanted was "to break me" and for me to cry, so by God I'd never give her the satisfaction. Of course, she'd say she was hitting me until I did break, but she always got tired first. But what's applicable to your situation, @Casual Observer, is that whilst I didn't utter "forget" what happened to me, I did forget some of the specifics of how much it hurt both physically and emotionally. Instead of sticking around to feel that hurt, I did this thing where I kind of went numb and was not entirely "in my body" so that I didn't feel it as much. I concentrated REALLY HARD on the pattern of the couch...or the lightbulb in the lamp in the living room...and for a bit of time it was almost like I was looking at my own self being beat. I know this doesn't make a ton of sense to a fairly healthy, "sane" person, but I knew I was going to be beat by a grown-up every single day, and there was no way I could prevent it (although, trust me, I did try every day to "do things right" so I wouldn't be beat. Nah, she found a reason and eventually I figured out it had nothing to do with me or what I did). Soooo...no way to get away to get to safety. When fight or flight kicked in, I got away the only way I could--in my mind. I was not "in my body."

Now, in counseling, I went with my counselor to remember not only the "out of body" experience that I did not forget, but also, how scared I was to see my parents physically fight each other. How scared I felt when they would come after one of my younger sisters, and how I responsible to keep them safe. How numb I was to actually feeling anything. I didn't realize I was numb. I just thought that's how people got through life! Instead of "escaping" to the pattern on the couch, I experienced it in the present, while I was safe and knowing that as an adult I could protect myself now. And I learned how to unhear what I heard a thousand times in my mom's voice in my head. I learned how to even have a nurturing voice--I literally had NO NURTURING VOICE in my head so I didn't nurture my own self. 

And even when a person does "forget" and put the memory in a chest, in a vault, and build walls around it...the body remembers and triggers. So what happend for me is that even though I didn't constantly think about being hit, if I went to the Goodwill and saw a couch with the same old 1970's pattern that our old couch had, my BODY REMEMBERED and I would trigger! The trigger feels like what scared me is happening now. 

How this plays out with a sexual trauma is that maybe you wear the same cologne as the person who was there during her trauma. Maybe you just "make a move" that's similar or reminds her. She doesn't "remember" the memory of the trauma, but her BODY remembers that the last time that move was made, she was in GRAVE DANGER...so her body feels like it's afraid and has to run away and deep down she wants to get away. You would have no idea you just moved in a way that triggered her--you were just moving or looking or being you. But in HER HEAD, she'd see it out of the corner of her eye, her mind/body would flash right back to the trauma, her mind/body would feel just like she's that terrified/repulsed but she'd be reacting to that PAST trauma, not to YOU in the present. 

Does this make any sense?

As far as how much time, I am not sure what to say. She's had 40 years of avoiding this. I have a lot of trouble believing she'll face it now, only because she's skilled at avoiding it. I am not sure how long, but you know maybe the MC and psychologist might be able to offer some wisdom.


----------



## Casual Observer

Affaircare said:


> And even when a person does "forget" and put the memory in a chest, in a vault, and build walls around it...the body remembers and triggers. So what happend for me is that even though I didn't constantly think about being hit, if I went to the Goodwill and saw a couch with the same old 1970's pattern that our old couch had, my BODY REMEMBERED and I would trigger! The trigger feels like what scared me is happening now.
> 
> How this plays out with a sexual trauma is that maybe you wear the same cologne as the person who was there during her trauma. Maybe you just "make a move" that's similar or reminds her. She doesn't "remember" the memory of the trauma, but her BODY remembers that the last time that move was made, she was in GRAVE DANGER...so her body feels like it's afraid and has to run away and deep down she wants to get away. You would have no idea you just moved in a way that triggered her--you were just moving or looking or being you. But in HER HEAD, she'd see it out of the corner of her eye, her mind/body would flash right back to the trauma, her mind/body would feel just like she's that terrified/repulsed but she'd be reacting to that PAST trauma, not to YOU in the present.
> 
> Does this make any sense?
> 
> As far as how much time, I am not sure what to say. She's had 40 years of avoiding this. I have a lot of trouble believing she'll face it now, only because she's skilled at avoiding it. I am not sure how long, but you know maybe the MC and psychologist might be able to offer some wisdom.


I think her situation may be simpler. As mentioned previously, one of the big things to come out of yesterday's session was her father's view of punishment. Very harsh, and "The punishment has to fit the crime." There as no chance for learning, or redemption, just being punished for doing or being something bad. In her Dad's view, she was doing something bad. In her Mom's view, she simply was a bad person. So what happen? When she did have sex, or try to have sex, for the first time with this guy, it went really bad. It was far from the wonderful physical orgasmic experience she expected. She had said at the time "I don't know if I enjoyed it or not." Think... not. And then immediately she feel really guilty, partly because of what she'd done, but largely because it felt like she was being punished because it didn't go well. 

For most of us, the first time we have sex is not exactly awesome. What gets us through is trying again and getting better. We (or at least many of us) generally don't leave our first sex partner thinking sex was awful because we had the chance to get better at it. To learn.

For my wife, there was no opportunity to learn because she went deep into a dark place immediately afterward. The combination of "failure" and punishment created a really bad taste in her mouth for sex. She never had the opportunity for it to normalize. 

Then along comes me, and my wife develops vaginismis and let's just say her memories of that time, from a physical standpoint, might mirror her earlier time with the first guy. And me? I back off, fearing that I've done something really wrong, that she wasn't ready for this etc. I did *not* tell her that's normal, that things will get better, because I didn't want to sound like the patronizing guy who was experienced (which was the case; I'd already been through all this). I wanted to respect her first time and let it be hers, not mine. 

And everything went downhill from there. We continued to have sex, on a regular basis, but it was never pleasant for her, and she never talked about her feelings. But anything involving sex was not intimate, and anything involving intimacy could lead to sex so it was avoided by her.

So I don't think we're looking at weird triggers; I don't think this is about smell or colors or anything like that. I think this is pretty simply about... sex. Sex itself is the trigger.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@Affaircare: thank you for explaining the process, and the need for it, eloquently and in such great detail.
Thank you for being so open and honest about what happened to you and why and how you decided to face your fears and work through them.
It is a blessing to know you. Even if only via the Internet.


----------



## Casual Observer

*Today & tomorrow big days for my wife's journey*

The key thing in my wife's trauma has been an inability to remember the events in her diary that put her so much at odds with the reality she has projected for all these years. Today she's going to be going through her diary entries, trying to find things she can recognize, and she has a new tool in hand; the does remember, quite vividly, her fears of becoming pregnant. Then tomorrow morning, if this all works out, I'll take her to the place where things happened, so many years ago. She didn't think she could figure out where this guy's house was; in the age of Google, it wasn't too tough. This is what her therapist and our MC had suggested.

It took a while for her to become strong enough to handle this. We had a conversation where I explained to her that she should try and remember the good times (not so much with the manipulative guy but just about everything else) and that what she went through was normal & fun and if something she reads brings back memories that almost seem too pleasant, embrace it as a pleasant memory. Being a horny teenager should not become a regrettable experience on its own. What am I trying to say. OK, try this. Bringing back a memory with erotic feelings... reading something that gets her turned on (now)... she should have no problem with that. I explained that she doesn't expect me to believe everything that went on with my past girlfriend was unpleasant or something I can't look back and have a pleasant recollection. 

Will be interesting to see how it goes. Limited time to go over things tonight because... it's Thursday and her favorite show is back on after hiatus (ER) with a two-hour episode. Anything else can be watched at a later time. ER she has to watch when it's on. Don't ask. I don't get it either.


----------



## Casual Observer

*Another update*

My wife went over her diary entries again, each time becoming a bit more inquisitive, a bit less defensive. We've learned something new; her "awakening" happened 4 months prior to meeting "the guy." And her loss of memory happened at that same time. By "awakening" I refer to when she decided that "saving herself" was no longer the bit she wore between her teeth. She'd met this slightly-older guy who wasn't interested in a relationship that didn't include sex when things got serious. It was discussed and she decided sex would be OK, if in a sufficiently-serious relationship. Well, it turned out this guy wasn't willing to wait that long, so off he went. It was about 4 months later she met the guy who swept her off her feet in no time and created the experience she apparently regretted instantly. But her memory gap extends from this first guy (whom things came close but didn't work out) until sometime after "the guy." Everything before, everything after, she recalls very clearly. 

She had no idea. Reading the stuff she was initially stunned and wondering why it's all a blank, but took it in stride. The only things during that period of time that carried through were with a couple guys whom she knew before then, and continued to know after. Those memories are not only intact but were also relayed to me way back when. 

We drove past "the guy's" house; she had no memories of it. But, in all seriousness, she likely never once saw it in the daytime. It was always evenings.

She's also gained an acceptance of how she damaged our relationship with her attitude towards sexual intimacy. It. Is. Truly. Amazing. That. She. Could. Be. So. Oblivious. She remembers EVERYTHING, all the nasty things she said to me, things that would cut through a guy's soul, things she said that she never, ever, thought how they might affect me. It's like, how could she be that person? 

So there's a lot of reason for hope, but y'know, what happens if her past actually wasn't traumatizing? Then does my house of cards (my hopes) fall apart? It's funny... as she goes back and picks things apart and starts to become less emotional about it, that very lack of emotion, the ability to spend time thinking about it and actually admit things happened... does that go against the idea of trauma? The MC and Psychiatrist both are convinced that a singular point of memory that's been locked away are almost definitive of trauma. But what happens when events spread out over 5 months? 

It really sucks that her psychiatrist appointments are 4-6 weeks apart, and the MC appointment for Monday was cancelled (by the MC; things come up from time to time with her). There's a feeling that, if we don't keep on top of things, momentum gets lost and she reverts. I'm suggesting to my wife that she maintain email contact with the psychiatrist, BUT I have some concern about whether I should be making any suggestions at all, since it's her psychiatrist, her time, her safe place.

Presently, I'd say she's in a better place than I am. To some extent that's a "be careful what you wish for" scenario. We're going to go over things tomorrow and figure out the best path forward from here. It's been a terribly taxing past 10 months for me. I'd say life was easier when I was very unhappy about something that didn't seem possible to change. When it suddenly became clear she had some really-deep-rooted issues that created both guilt (from knowingly lying about things) and a really negative view of sex, your mind starts reeling from all the possibilities. Can this be fixed. Am I smart enough to figure things out. Am I expecting too much. Why did I put up with so little for so long. 


Faithful Wife said:


> (10/23/9) SHE does not want to fix anything. Only you do. Haven't you seen that yet? That's why you're the one willing to throw yourself under the bus. She could care less and wishes you would just accept her as she is. You are basically saying you can't accept her unless she changes, and yet she is saying she loves you as you are. Which one of those is a more loving position?


That post was from just two months ago. Things have changed hugely since then. Her psychiatrist and MC have helped her recognize that she's come from a very unhealthy place, keeping things locked up. Saying "She could care less" is no longer the case. It was, when there was no awareness of the effects of her actions (not prior to us, but during our marriage, the resentment of sex, the complete unthinking about how things she said would make a normal person feel). 

Thanks to @Affaircare, @In Absentia, @Marduk, @ConanHub, @MattMatt, @JustTheWife, @Tilted 1, @sokillme @Blondilocks, @Tasorundo, @SunCMars, @Adelais and many others who have helped in this journey. You too, @Faithful Wife!


----------



## sokillme

Maybe you shouldn't thank me because I think your wife is probably full of **** and a pretty heartlessly cruel person. 

I bet if you told her you were done tonight she would miraculously have and epiphany and remember everything.

Call me an ******* if you want. 

At the end of the day it's your life.


----------



## Blondilocks

sokillme said:


> Maybe you should thank me because I think your wife is probably full of **** and a pretty heartlessly cruel person.
> 
> I bet if you told her you were done tonight she would miraculously have and epiphany and remember everything.
> 
> Call me an ******* if you want.
> 
> At the end of the day it's your life.


He did thank you. Did you not see it?

Is anyone welcome to call you an *******?>


----------



## sokillme

Blondilocks said:


> He did thank you. Did you not see it?
> 
> Is anyone welcome to call you an *******?>


I should have wrote shouldn't.

I don't believe in this lost memory stuff, besides even if she did lose her memory that is no reason to be cruel to him and discount his feelings like she does.


----------



## Casual Observer

sokillme said:


> Maybe you shouldn't thank me because I think your wife is probably full of **** and a pretty heartlessly cruel person.
> 
> I bet if you told her you were done tonight she would miraculously have and epiphany and remember everything.
> 
> Call me an ******* if you want.
> 
> At the end of the day it's your life.





Blondilocks said:


> He did thank you. Did you not see it?
> 
> Is anyone welcome to call you an *******?>


I added you to the list of those I thanked for their contributions. Didn't mean to pass you over! You're free to say the same to me you might be thinking about saying to @sokillme. Most of us spend some time in that category.



sokillme said:


> I should have wrote shouldn't.
> 
> I don't believe in this lost memory stuff, besides even if she did lose her memory that is no reason to be cruel to him and discount his feelings like she does.


So yes, you are hitting on something that remains a point of contention for us (my wife and I, not me & you). How could she say those things without thinking about how they would affect me? That's something that I wanted her to follow up on in an email to her psychiatrist, but she's really reluctant to include "substance" because she's worried about the privacy of the messages. I have pretty strongly pointed out that she can't be helped by her psychiatrist if she holds back information. So... she included a question about the issue of privacy in her email. We'll see how it goes. 

Regarding the validity of lost memory, I just don't know. Most liars trips themselves up at some point, once discovered. So far, I haven't seen that with her. What I remain most watchful for is a return of the "Why do I have to..." after a few days or a week. That's why having a long time between sessions is bothersome. There's the potential to lose forward progress, even go backward.


----------



## sokillme

Casual Observer said:


> I So yes, you are hitting on something that remains a point of contention for us (my wife and I, not me & you). How could she say those things without thinking about how they would affect me? That's something that I wanted her to follow up on in an email to her psychiatrist, but she's really reluctant to include "substance" because she's worried about the privacy of the messages. I have pretty strongly pointed out that she can't be helped by her psychiatrist if she holds back information. So... she included a question about the issue of privacy in her email. We'll see how it goes.


It's convenient that she seems to always get cold feet when it comes to doing stuff that would alleviate your doubt and pain. She never gets cold feet when it comes to doing something to hurt you though. 



Casual Observer said:


> Regarding the validity of lost memory, I just don't know. Most liars trips themselves up at some point, once discovered. So far, I haven't seen that with her. What I remain most watchful for is a return of the "Why do I have to..." after a few days or a week. That's why having a long time between sessions is bothersome. There's the potential to lose forward progress, even go backward.


It's a lot easier not to get tripped up in a lie if you only have to tell one, "I don't remember" and stick to it. 

Here's a scenario that maybe your wife or her doctor hasn't run by you but I will. Maybe she just doesn't love you enough to tell you the truth. Maybe she knows the truth will end up hurting her and she cares more about that then your pain. Maybe she thinks it will end the marriage. Maybe she doesn't trust you enough to tell you for fear of your reaction. 

You should ask her this point blank.


----------



## In Absentia

sokillme said:


> You should ask her this point blank.


I wouldn't. The OP is progressing, or so it seems. Of course it could just be a big fat lie, but I would wait and see what happens with the therapy first. All is going to get now is more tears. She is doing what he asked her to do.


----------



## Blondilocks

"I added you to the list of those I thanked for their contributions. Didn't mean to pass you over! You're free to say the same to me you might be thinking about saying to @sokillme.* Most of us spend some time in that category."*

Raising my hand. Mea culpa.


----------



## sokillme

In Absentia said:


> I wouldn't. The OP is progressing, or so it seems. Of course it could just be a big fat lie, but I would wait and see what happens with the therapy first. All is going to get now is more tears. She is doing what he asked her to do.


OK maybe this is true but once again convenient, and convenient that her affliction enables her to completely control the narrative and by extension the power in their relationship, but lets just say this is true is there ever a point where he can force the issue or is this all down to her timing? You know from her counselors point of view assuming one's spouse has endless patience is not a very good strategy. I mean eventually OP might get fed up.


----------



## In Absentia

sokillme said:


> *OK maybe this is true but once again convenient, and convenient that her affliction enables her to completely control the narrative and by extension the power in their relationship*, but lets just say this is true is there ever a point where he can force the issue or is this all down to her timing? You know from her counselors point of view assuming one's spouse has endless patience is not a very good strategy. I mean eventually OP might get fed up.


I know... I married a woman like that and, whatever I did, she managed to twist reality... I think the OP has a lot of patience. He might get fed up at some point, I guess. Who wouldn't? When? Probably not for a long time... :wink2:


----------



## Marduk

*Re: Another update*



Casual Observer said:


> My wife went over her diary entries again, each time becoming a bit more inquisitive, a bit less defensive. We've learned something new; her "awakening" happened 4 months prior to meeting "the guy." And her loss of memory happened at that same time. By "awakening" I refer to when she decided that "saving herself" was no longer the bit she wore between her teeth. She'd met this slightly-older guy who wasn't interested in a relationship that didn't include sex when things got serious. It was discussed and she decided sex would be OK, if in a sufficiently-serious relationship. Well, it turned out this guy wasn't willing to wait that long, so off he went. It was about 4 months later she met the guy who swept her off her feet in no time and created the experience she apparently regretted instantly. But her memory gap extends from this first guy (whom things came close but didn't work out) until sometime after "the guy." Everything before, everything after, she recalls very clearly.


Unfortunately this is common. 



> She had no idea. Reading the stuff she was initially stunned and wondering why it's all a blank, but took it in stride. The only things during that period of time that carried through were with a couple guys whom she knew before then, and continued to know after. Those memories are not only intact but were also relayed to me way back when.
> 
> We drove past "the guy's" house; she had no memories of it. But, in all seriousness, she likely never once saw it in the daytime. It was always evenings.


This is also common. 



> She's also gained an acceptance of how she damaged our relationship with her attitude towards sexual intimacy. It. Is. Truly. Amazing. That. She. Could. Be. So. Oblivious. She remembers EVERYTHING, all the nasty things she said to me, things that would cut through a guy's soul, things she said that she never, ever, thought how they might affect me. It's like, how could she be that person?


Also common. Here's how my wife explained her behavior towards me after her assault:
1. first and foremost, she was trying to 'save' me - by trying to get me to leave her. She was totally out of control with nearly zero capacity to self-regulate. She hated what she was doing to me, and would often beg me to leave her to protect myself.
2. her understanding of the social contract, norms, trust, etc were suddenly taken away. It's like waking up to discover that everything you believed and trusted was a lie - very much like discovering you're being cheated on, but even worse because you somewhat feel complicit in it. She saw everyone and everything a threat, including me.
3. her ability to down-regulate her emotional state was exhausted by the need to remain hyper-vigilant and the need to process what happened to her. If her brain was a CPU, it was pinned at 100% just trying to do those things.
4. she was deeply angry with me because I didn't stop what happened to her - even though rationally this didn't make sense because I wasn't aware of it. In a similar way, your wife might actually be angry with you over what happened to her even though she wasn't with you at the time. Or angry with you for not somehow knowing it. Or angry with you for wanting to have sex with her after her trauma even though you didn't know it. These things don't need to make sense logically for the emotions to get triggered.
5. she was perpetually (and I mean every waking and sleeping moment) in a fight or flight state. She couldn't always flee from me, so she would fight me.
6. I was the only one in the world she trusted, so this sense of safety would sometimes translate into letting her be herself - which was an angry, frightened, traumatized but extremely powerful and intelligent woman.
7. there is no way for her to de-personalize any of this to see it objectively until she's ready.
8. There's layers to this. All of the above could be happening all at the same time, with only parts of her consciousness being aware of it. In this way, part of your wife could be aware of how her behaviour towards you is hurting you and the marriage, then another part will swoop in and rationalize it away or repress that thought altogether. So the 'part' of your wife that you are talking to could be very confused by why you're upset at what she just did... even though if she were watching it happen on a movie screen, she'd understand it quite well.

All of this means that it's baffling head-****ery for you, and because you love her you have to hang in there even though it means being her emotional punching bag. Just set hard limits with that.



> So there's a lot of reason for hope, but y'know, what happens if her past actually wasn't traumatizing? Then does my house of cards (my hopes) fall apart? It's funny... as she goes back and picks things apart and starts to become less emotional about it, that very lack of emotion, the ability to spend time thinking about it and actually admit things happened... does that go against the idea of trauma? The MC and Psychiatrist both are convinced that a singular point of memory that's been locked away are almost definitive of trauma. But what happens when events spread out over 5 months?


Just let it roll out. Trauma is what is perceived, not necessarily what actually happened. We're not digital recorders, we remember experience and how we feel about it. What is important is that she process the emotions fully within her body, if that makes sense.



> It really sucks that her psychiatrist appointments are 4-6 weeks apart, and the MC appointment for Monday was cancelled (by the MC; things come up from time to time with her). There's a feeling that, if we don't keep on top of things, momentum gets lost and she reverts. I'm suggesting to my wife that she maintain email contact with the psychiatrist, BUT I have some concern about whether I should be making any suggestions at all, since it's her psychiatrist, her time, her safe place.


My wife went weekly, and sometimes twice a week when things were bad. With two different therapists. And a support group was also involved. This is far too infrequent.



> Presently, I'd say she's in a better place than I am. To some extent that's a "be careful what you wish for" scenario. We're going to go over things tomorrow and figure out the best path forward from here. It's been a terribly taxing past 10 months for me. I'd say life was easier when I was very unhappy about something that didn't seem possible to change. When it suddenly became clear she had some really-deep-rooted issues that created both guilt (from knowingly lying about things) and a really negative view of sex, your mind starts reeling from all the possibilities. Can this be fixed. Am I smart enough to figure things out. Am I expecting too much. Why did I put up with so little for so long.
> That post was from just two months ago. Things have changed hugely since then. Her psychiatrist and MC have helped her recognize that she's come from a very unhealthy place, keeping things locked up. Saying "She could care less" is no longer the case. It was, when there was no awareness of the effects of her actions (not prior to us, but during our marriage, the resentment of sex, the complete unthinking about how things she said would make a normal person feel).


Hang in there, man. This is hard for you and you get forgotten in all this, I know. How are you taking care of yourself in all this?


----------



## Marduk

sokillme said:


> It's convenient that she seems to always get cold feet when it comes to doing stuff that would alleviate your doubt and pain. She never gets cold feet when it comes to doing something to hurt you though.


One of the therapists told me in a 1-1 that often the first casualty of sexual trauma is the ability to empathize.


----------



## farsidejunky

sokillme said:


> It's convenient that she seems to always get cold feet when it comes to doing stuff that would alleviate your doubt and pain. She never gets cold feet when it comes to doing something to hurt you though.


This is a very astute observation.

I don't necessarily agree with the conclusion you draw from it...at least, not yet...but this observation bears careful consideration in all of her actions towards you, CA.


----------



## Casual Observer

*Re: Another update*



Marduk said:


> Hang in there, man. This is hard for you and you get forgotten in all this, I know. How are you taking care of yourself in all this?


This is what I sent to the MC this morning. It might allay your fears that I'm not taking care of my own issues in all of this-



I do feel tremendous progress has been made. I'm also aware of the "be careful what you wish for" effect because validation carries with it feelings of sadness and deep questions for me. One starts thinking about the nature of love and how she can love me if she harbors such feelings. Was I a Plan B 42 years ago when other things didn't work out. Am I expecting too much because what she saw in me was an escape while what I saw in her was something much more. What does it mean that she didn't take anything seriously until I was ready to leave.​
I keep to my routines, knowing that it would take very little to turn manageable health issues into something far more serious (I have lungs that work at 28% of capacity yet have VO2 max of 140% for my age, and a mild bone marrow cancer that is for most people a source of chronic pain, among other issues, yet I am virtually symptom-free... both conditions which are apparently kept at bay through 6-10 hours of extremely-hard endurance exercise each week on a bicycle, climbing mountains and riding distances while pushing myself as hard as I can). 

The toughest thing for me is to remain adaptive, because as my wife and I go through this process, I'm meeting a slightly different version of her all the time. There is no concrete way to deal with things as she changes her attitude, and it is changing. It's changing more than just at the surface, but of course, most of the core remains intact. 

The weekly MC sessions have helped me to remain grounded via a relatively-neutral 3rd party involved in the process. When there is no weekly meeting (like today's being cancelled by the MC due to issues on her side), I am more prone to negative thinking. This week, perhaps not so much though. There's been more revelations(?) and willingness to confront the past in the past 10 days than the prior 10 months combined. So not so much negative feelings as unsettled. Scared of losing what's been gained. 

There's also the issue of wondering if what I feel and how I've dealt with it is legit. I have changed from being a bitter Alpha Male to a wounded A-/B+ version that spends time questioning decisions instead of being as firmly in control of direction as I used to be. Does that make sense? It's a serious question. This process has changed me. Earlier I would have been more capable of carrying the TAM "180" flag with complete conviction than I am today. Is it OK to have become a bit softer and gentler? That sames exactly the opposite of the tribal knowledge here. My rationalization is that it's part of my adaptive nature and required by my stubborn tenacity to get the job done.


----------



## Marduk

I’m glad you’re taking care of yourself. 

But I don’t think there’s a mild version of bone marrow cancer. 

I hope you know it’s ok to make a big part of your marriage about you.


----------



## Affaircare

*Re: Another update*



> My wife went over her diary entries again, each time becoming a bit more inquisitive, a bit less defensive. We've learned something new; her "awakening" happened 4 months prior to meeting "the guy." And her loss of memory happened at that same time. By "awakening" I refer to when she decided that "saving herself" was no longer the bit she wore between her teeth. She'd met this slightly-older guy who wasn't interested in a relationship that didn't include sex when things got serious. It was discussed and she decided sex would be OK, if in a sufficiently-serious relationship. Well, it turned out this guy wasn't willing to wait that long, so off he went. It was about 4 months later she met the guy who swept her off her feet in no time and created the experience she apparently regretted instantly. But her memory gap extends from this first guy (whom things came close but didn't work out) until sometime after "the guy." Everything before, everything after, she recalls very clearly.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately this is common.
Click to expand...

As you have described your wife's memories and her gaps, I'll just say that I feel a sense of recognition and have a theory about what happened. Rather than state my theory out loud, I think it's wisest to just let it play out, but I do want to be clear that what you are describing is familiar and like @Marduk said, not uncommon.



> She had no idea. Reading the stuff she was initially stunned and wondering why it's all a blank, but took it in stride. The only things during that period of time that carried through were with a couple guys whom she knew before then, and continued to know after. Those memories are not only intact but were also relayed to me way back when.
> 
> We drove past "the guy's" house; she had no memories of it. But, in all seriousness, she likely never once saw it in the daytime. It was always evenings.
> 
> 
> 
> This is also common.
Click to expand...

Again, I believe @Marduk is right on the money. Sometimes going to "the place" of a suspected event can start the flow of memories--sometimes not. This is why I was talking to you about the pattern on the couch and the type of lights we had...not because she'll remember the pattern on the couch too, but rather because sometimes it's not something you'd normally think of that will trigger the response. You mentioned that "sex" seems to be the trigger, and let's just say for a guess that there was some traumatic event REGARDING sex that occurred and she has blotted out. What triggers her body into the trauma response may not be sex with you PER SE, nor "sexual acts in general" so much as there will be some ____ like a way you move, something she sees out of the corner of her eye, a smell, the feel of a tongue too far in her mouth...SOMETHING...and that is what makes her body react like it is in the original trauma right now. 

As I mentioned in my post, it's not like I forgot I was beaten. What I did forget is seeing my dad try to strangle my mom with the phone cord. I did forget being locked in the unfinished basement for three days. I did forget hiding in the closet hoping I wouldn't get hit and getting hit all the worse. I did forget the full extent of some things because they were too much to remember without freaking out. Soooo...with some counseling I got in a healthier, safer place TO remember and then dealt with it somewhat better. 



> She's also gained an acceptance of how she damaged our relationship with her attitude towards sexual intimacy. It. Is. Truly. Amazing. That. She. Could. Be. So. Oblivious. She remembers EVERYTHING, all the nasty things she said to me, things that would cut through a guy's soul, things she said that she never, ever, thought how they might affect me. It's like, how could she be that person?
> 
> 
> 
> Also common. Here's how my wife explained her behavior towards me after her assault:
> 1. first and foremost, she was trying to 'save' me - by trying to get me to leave her. She was totally out of control with nearly zero capacity to self-regulate. She hated what she was doing to me, and would often beg me to leave her to protect myself.
> 2. her understanding of the social contract, norms, trust, etc were suddenly taken away. It's like waking up to discover that everything you believed and trusted was a lie - very much like discovering you're being cheated on, but even worse because you somewhat feel complicit in it. She saw everyone and everything a threat, including me.
> 3. her ability to down-regulate her emotional state was exhausted by the need to remain hyper-vigilant and the need to process what happened to her. If her brain was a CPU, it was pinned at 100% just trying to do those things.
> 4. she was deeply angry with me because I didn't stop what happened to her - even though rationally this didn't make sense because I wasn't aware of it. In a similar way, your wife might actually be angry with you over what happened to her even though she wasn't with you at the time. Or angry with you for not somehow knowing it. Or angry with you for wanting to have sex with her after her trauma even though you didn't know it. These things don't need to make sense logically for the emotions to get triggered.
> 5. she was perpetually (and I mean every waking and sleeping moment) in a fight or flight state. She couldn't always flee from me, so she would fight me.
> 6. I was the only one in the world she trusted, so this sense of safety would sometimes translate into letting her be herself - which was an angry, frightened, traumatized but extremely powerful and intelligent woman.
> 7. there is no way for her to de-personalize any of this to see it objectively until she's ready.
> 8. There's layers to this. All of the above could be happening all at the same time, with only parts of her consciousness being aware of it. In this way, part of your wife could be aware of how her behaviour towards you is hurting you and the marriage, then another part will swoop in and rationalize it away or repress that thought altogether. So the 'part' of your wife that you are talking to could be very confused by why you're upset at what she just did... even though if she were watching it happen on a movie screen, she'd understand it quite well.
> 
> All of this means that it's baffling head-****ery for you, and because you love her you have to hang in there even though it means being her emotional punching bag. Just set hard limits with that.
Click to expand...

Okay this is pretty much awesome. It absolutely is head-****ery for you, and to some degree for her too. I am not saying she is not personally responsible for all the nasty things she said to you, the things that would cut through a guy's soul, things she said that she never, ever, thought how they might affect you. Honestly, I hold myself personally responsible for **** I did "back then" and for **** I still occasionally do! What I do think is somewhat reasonable is that she continue to work at it diligently and you have an attitude of understanding where it's coming from...not as an excuse to continue bad behavior, but more like "I get it, you're feeling unsafe and triggered, but name-calling is still unacceptable." 

Regarding the 7 things @Marduk listed above, it's not so much a 1-2-3 list as it is "maybe all 7 happen at the same time" list. Like he says, there are layers. I married @Emerging Buddhist knowing that I struggle sometimes, and I do okayish but boy now and then, I hit a landmine. But that's okay--I think as long as she keeps dealing with it and keeps moving forward and stays honest with you and with herself, there is room for understanding and mutual growth. Where I think it gets super unhealthy is when one is moving forward and staying honest, and the other refuses to move, refuses to grow, and refuses to face reality. 



> So there's a lot of reason for hope, but y'know, what happens if her past actually wasn't traumatizing? Then does my house of cards (my hopes) fall apart? It's funny... as she goes back and picks things apart and starts to become less emotional about it, that very lack of emotion, the ability to spend time thinking about it and actually admit things happened... does that go against the idea of trauma? The MC and Psychiatrist both are convinced that a singular point of memory that's been locked away are almost definitive of trauma. But what happens when events spread out over 5 months?
> 
> 
> 
> Just let it roll out. Trauma is what is perceived, not necessarily what actually happened. We're not digital recorders, we remember experience and how we feel about it. What is important is that she process the emotions fully within her body, if that makes sense.
Click to expand...

To put it in other words, if that same event happened to you (as a guy) or to me as a different female person, it may not have been traumatic, but to her, *as *she experienced it *when *she experienced it, it was. So it may not be like her memory is "viewing a movie inside her head." It may be more like her memory returning is feeling stress, feeling scared, feeling uncomfortable and squirmy, being overly emotional... 

For me, my trauma continued out over about 10 years, so it's not necessarily "one event." My guess, based on how you describe things and what she does and doesn't remember, is that there is either one event or a series that's over a shorter period of time (like a couple days), but that's sincerely a best guess kind of "gut feeling." But NO your house of cards don't fall apart. Trauma isn't always remembered with breakdown or with a sudden rush like amnesia. In fact, part of my own therapy was for the numbness--not feeling. I mean...I felt kind of, but it was like "black and white" vs. color. I had numbed my own self, and staying raw/vulnerable is a skill that has to be learned. 



> It really sucks that her psychiatrist appointments are 4-6 weeks apart, and the MC appointment for Monday was cancelled (by the MC; things come up from time to time with her). There's a feeling that, if we don't keep on top of things, momentum gets lost and she reverts. I'm suggesting to my wife that she maintain email contact with the psychiatrist, BUT I have some concern about whether I should be making any suggestions at all, since it's her psychiatrist, her time, her safe place.
> 
> 
> 
> My wife went weekly, and sometimes twice a week when things were bad. With two different therapists. And a support group was also involved. This is far too infrequent.
Click to expand...

I agree with this too! Oh my goodness, I went to my personal therapist once-a-week, to a support group for abused spouses once-a-week, and to the support group's counselor once-a-week! So three days a week I was seeing someone. In my personal therapy, I took home "homework" to practice such as "notice when you hold your breath this week" or "write one incident that happened this week, and write down what your Protector, Judge, Child, and Nurturer said in your head". The idea was to practice recognizing what could be a PTSD trigger moment. My support group was to be with other female humans who had also been abused so that I didn't feel isolated and alone...like this only happened to me. In the group, I made a couple really good friends, and they were the first people to tell me "You're not nuts! That happens to me too! Here's what I do:____" The support group counselor was mainly about self-esteem. Honestly, even self-esteem is a skill that has to be learned. 

As I understand it, a psychiatrist is a medical practitioner specializing in the diagnosis and treatment of mental illness. So a psychiatrist as personal therapist is a really qualified individual. The MC is a therapist FOR THE MARRIAGE...so yes, the MC would help her, but also help YOU and help keep the marriage as a healthy entity itself. I wonder if the psychiatrist would be willing to a) see her more often, b) refer her to a support group. I suspect it would be extremely helpful. 



> Presently, I'd say she's in a better place than I am. To some extent that's a "be careful what you wish for" scenario. We're going to go over things tomorrow and figure out the best path forward from here. It's been a terribly taxing past 10 months for me. I'd say life was easier when I was very unhappy about something that didn't seem possible to change. When it suddenly became clear she had some really-deep-rooted issues that created both guilt (from knowingly lying about things) and a really negative view of sex, your mind starts reeling from all the possibilities. Can this be fixed? Am I smart enough to figure things out? Am I expecting too much? Why did I put up with so little for so long?
> 
> That post was from just two months ago. Things have changed hugely since then. Her psychiatrist and MC have helped her recognize that she's come from a very unhealthy place, keeping things locked up. Saying "She could care less" is no longer the case. It was, when there was no awareness of the effects of her actions (not prior to us, but during our marriage, the resentment of sex, the complete unthinking about how things she said would make a normal person feel).
> 
> 
> 
> Hang in there, man. This is hard for you and you get forgotten in all this, I know. How are you taking care of yourself in all this?
Click to expand...

I second this as well. It HAS been a very taxing 10 months for you, and it would be 100% reasonable for you to say "I have hit my limit. I can't do this" or to say you need a break. I concur that it would be wise to set up regular self-care such as a support group for yourself, or regular nights with some friends. Another thing you could do is just ask for a truce for the night, and go do something fun. EB and I just went sledding--when was the last time you went sledding? It's pretty youthful feeling! How about bowling? I get it--she's a bigger gal--but doing something fun reminds you (and her) why you're doing all the work. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.  And really, you do all this work on her, on you, and on the marriage because you care for the lady. So have some fun with her.


----------



## Casual Observer

Marduk said:


> I’m glad you’re taking care of yourself.
> 
> But I don’t think there’s a mild version of bone marrow cancer.
> 
> I hope you know it’s ok to make a big part of your marriage about you.


It would be my wife's view that I've made everything about me. :grin2: That coming from her view that she was completely happy with how things had been all these years. Why did anything have to change? 

I'll PM the info on my bone marrow cancer. It's rare enough that anonymity here might be at risk and I'd need to move this to a private section. But for others, I'm not going anywhere soon.


----------



## Marduk

Casual Observer said:


> It would be my wife's view that I've made everything about me. :grin2: That coming from her view that she was completely happy with how things had been all these years. Why did anything have to change?
> 
> I'll PM the info on my bone marrow cancer. It's rare enough that anonymity here might be at risk and I'd need to move this to a private section. But for others, I'm not going anywhere soon.


My only goal here is to help support you. If that means giving you advice on what I have learned from my journey with my wife, then it's yours. If it's a gentle reminder that you also matter, then it's also yours.


----------



## Affaircare

*Re: Another update*



Casual Observer said:


> ... There's also the issue of wondering if what I feel and how I've dealt with it is legit. I have changed from being a bitter Alpha Male to a wounded A-/B+ version that spends time questioning decisions instead of being as firmly in control of direction as I used to be. Does that make sense? It's a serious question. This process has changed me. Earlier I would have been more capable of carrying the TAM "180" flag with complete conviction than I am today. Is it OK to have become a bit softer and gentler? That sames exactly the opposite of the tribal knowledge here. My rationalization is that it's part of my adaptive nature and required by my stubborn tenacity to get the job done.


You know what? I sincerely believe my Beloved Hubby would be a wonderful resource for you, so I'm going to give @Emerging Buddhist a call out. 

Here's why I think he may be of assistance: 

a) he's married to this filly and has somehow figured out how to stick with me! 

b) he used to be a US Army staff sargeant, and I guarantee you, there is no tougher Alpha Male than a US Army staff sargeant! Going from the military to civilian life (where there is no such thing as being held accountable) was QUITE a transition, and like you, he learned to adapt to be a bit softer and gentler. Now he still takes no ****--but he figured out how to buffer with kindness, how to recognize if it's his own ego in the way, how to trust the process, etc. 

You know...no one is perfect, but it sounds to me like some of what you're thinking about as a husband and as a man would be really well served by guys like @Marduk and @Emerging Buddhist. I would recommend listening to folks who have proven themselves wise and who have been through what you're going through.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

*Re: Another update*



Casual Observer said:


> There's also the issue of wondering if what I feel and how I've dealt with it is legit. I have changed from being a bitter Alpha Male to a wounded A-/B+ version that spends time questioning decisions instead of being as firmly in control of direction as I used to be. Does that make sense? It's a serious question. This process has changed me. Earlier I would have been more capable of carrying the TAM "180" flag with complete conviction than I am today. Is it OK to have become a bit softer and gentler? That sames exactly the opposite of the tribal knowledge here. My rationalization is that it's part of my adaptive nature and required by my stubborn tenacity to get the job done.


I thoroughly enjoyed being the Sergeant I was (E-6)... beat up enough to have learned the lessons, not too beat up to be able to use them :wink2:, but it wasn't until I began to understand that control is a fleeting action did I begin to accept that control was an illusion, taught to me by those who I thought had the ultimate control yet in risk actually had very little... control came and went in seconds at a time, many times over and over.

It is all a matter of intent (your question "is it legit?")... if it is without deceit or manipulation, accept what you are feeling because our control leaves us as soon as the next breath is taken. We think we are in control up to the point the next thing intersects with us. You call it your "adaptive nature"... that tells you openly that control is not in your control.

I feel that bitterness and kindness are equal weights in balance when it comes to the simple breakdown of choice and effort... it all depends what you really want. 

Bitterness or kindness... if you can be either, be kind. Believe it or not, you train for either by the choice you make, skilled in the outcome. The problem comes in the glasses of culture and how things are seen... tribal is a good word for it.

Alpha/Beta is a sign or symbol of... what? You are comparing yourself to a cultural thought of self-expectations that one is good, one is bad... almost sounds like a prison in some ways. 

Strong leadership, sound judgement, compassionate guiding... these all come with periods of self-doubt and are necessary to balance ego or else you become far too arrogant in that which matters, and arrogance leads to weak leadership, poor judgement, and lack of compassion.

One cannot be adaptive and stubborn in the same breath. Tenacity gives you the strength in conviction, but stubborn isn't trusting the process... stubborn is trying to see the same scenery through the same eyes and not understanding why the view doesn't change. 

I'll share with you... you are already not the same person you were when you started reading this even if nothing I've shared holds value simply because you are already in the process of letting go of something, working on accepting what it was, and learning to have faith in what will be.

This is strengthening you.


----------



## Adelais

@Casual Observer your patience, if we can call it that, or your loyalty to your marriage which is a better description are already paying off. Your wife is beginning to "go there," go to all the "theres."

When people are wounded and lash out, many times they want to hurt others with their words, but they don't fully know just how deeply their choice of words is wounding. Sometimes they don't want to hurt others, but they think that their harsh words are truths that are going to help the person or people they are saying them to. Could either of those be where your wife was when she said hurtful things to you in the past?

The fact that she is digging deeper into her past shows her commitment to you and the marriage. That is a very good indicator of the future. Be prepared for some rollercoaster rides before it smooths completely out.

Can you say why she can't see her psychiatrist more often than every 4 months? Even if she saw him/her once a month, she could get some good work done in between with less backsliding and going back to business as usual.

I'm pretty amazed that you are able to email her therapist. Did you request that, or your wife or therapist?


----------



## Casual Observer

Adelais said:


> @Casual Observer your patience, if we can call it that, or your loyalty to your marriage which is a better description are already paying off. Your wife is beginning to "go there," go to all the "theres."


Yes, there is progress! More below.


> When people are wounded and lash out, many times they want to hurt others with their words, but they don't fully know just how deeply their choice of words is wounding. Sometimes they don't want to hurt others, but they think that their harsh words are truths that are going to help the person or people they are saying them to. Could either of those be where your wife was when she said hurtful things to you in the past?


That's a really interesting way of looking at it. You're onto something there. But... upon reflection, she should be able to see how badly such things hurt, especially after it's been explained to her. She still doesn't really get it. She understands that it's a problem but she cannot put herself in my shoes to experience it the way I do. But you've helped me to understand her thinking. Thank you!


> The fact that she is digging deeper into her past shows her commitment to you and the marriage. That is a very good indicator of the future. Be prepared for some rollercoaster rides before it smooths completely out.


 We're already on the roller coaster. I have my good nights, I have my bad nights. There are times I just can't believe how difficult it is for her to try to herself in someone else's position. This morning, we ate breakfast at a small pretty ordinary cafe. Service was OK, not extraordinary, but met expectations. I put down a 15% tip; my wife said 10% at best because it was nothing to write home about. I reminded her that we're talking minimum wage jobs here in an area that costs a fortune to live, and the tips help them get by. Up to her, it still would have been 10%.


> Can you say why she can't see her psychiatrist more often than every 4 months? Even if she saw him/her once a month, she could get some good work done in between with less backsliding and going back to business as usual.


 I should have said 4-6 weeks, not every 4 months. Even that isn't often enough. Maybe for some, it would be. But for my wife, the opportunity to backslide would be a big issue. She thinks every issue is something you deal with as quickly as possible and move on. So she'd spend maybe an hour after a prior session thinking about it, and then poof, that's it, done until next session. It has to be continuously in her face to make a real difference. The good thing is, she now gets this. She's beginning to understand her limitations.


> I'm pretty amazed that you are able to email her therapist. Did you request that, or your wife or therapist?


 Another thing I didn't make too clear I guess? I have no contact with her IC or psychiatrist. Just the MC that we obviously share. For the others, she'll give me a synopsis of what was covered, and the conclusions, and strangely enough, she doesn't doctor it up much. So if I get thrown under a bus because she left something out, it becomes plain as day. We discuss it and she gets back to her psychiatrist to explain things. This is only relevant for massive misrepresentations, otherwise I stay out of it. But when the trauma stuff ended up pointing to me as the source, because she completely left out the stuff she didn't want to talk about (the prior guy she'd been intimate with and later both omitted and lied about), that had to be corrected. Over the years she's had an extraordinary record of not telling her IC and psychiatrist anything at all about the things that have troubled her, when it might result in embarrassment. Nobody, according to my wife, has previously keyed into her need for control and not be vulnerable. What do you pay these people for???


----------



## Casual Observer

*A moment of clarity*

Last night, in bed, before our scheduled intimacy (something that she established a couple months ago and so far has stuck with), I put the evening's activities at risk. All this stuff we're going through. What's the point. What do I see as the problem, what do I want to see change. What is the less-than-one-minute near-epiphany moment I require from her. Not a long and drawn out discussion, but something so simple you can always come back to it to see where you are and wonder if you can get there.

"Right now, you are willing. You have no real desire, but you are willing. And the only reason you are willing is that you want to stay married. You want to save the marriage. That's not enough. The Psychiatrist, the MC, your upcoming sessions dealing with Trauma... the goal is, what has to happen, is to move to desire."

She gets it.

She didn't try to tell me she's doing the best she can. She didn't ask and plead and cry over why I don't appreciate what she's done more. It didn't get into a drawn out discussion at all. There was acceptance. Acceptance not just of what needs to happen, but also, I think, I hope I'm not wrong on this, but I think acceptance of knowing that this is something she cannot lie or fake her way through. 

And somehow, I was able to sleep afterward. No waking up at 4am and thinking about life for an hour, all the possibilities, the why and how and stuff like that. It really is so simple.


----------



## Casual Observer

*This is not an easy process- her rebellion*

After yesterday's session, when dropping me off for work, my wife had a mini-meltdown. "Why is this all about me? This started with YOU needing therapy. Why is everything my fault?"

Groundhog day. How do you respond? I don't know if I responded appropriately or not. I could have put my arm around her and told her, yes, I know, it must seem like that, it must be terribly hard, and maybe there's not enough emphasis on me.

Instead, I told her, not in an angry voice, but firm, without wavering, that I didn't cause this problem. I never lied. I never omitted anything of substance. I didn't say anything nasty to her over the past 40 years, as she has to me. I have made some dramatic change in attitude, better for her, because it had to happen. I chose not to fight change. She continues to struggle with believing it should be over, because it's caused her so much pain, so much crying. For 10 months, I told her. For me it's been 42 years. And then she left.

There was no further discussion last night. There's been additional stress because my mom's husband of 8 years (my stepdad, but I don't think of him that way, nice guy, but have trouble with the "dad" part?) has been in the hospital 20+ days, and the decision was made yesterday to go to palliative care only. He passed away this morning. He's at peace. Now time to turn back to us.

Wish me luck on tonight's time with my wife. I'm not giving ground on responsibility. I'm going to let her know that I haven't yet begun to assimilate everything; there's relief that the truth about her past and what she lied about has come out, but now I have to deal with the aftermath. She has to understand that she started our relationship and marriage on a rather massive lie, which likely caused trauma in itself, and that I'm dealing with a strange sense of betrayal for things that happened before we met. She had a choice of saying she'd rather keep some things about her past quiet, but she chose instead to tell me "everything" way back when. And double-down on that several times, while breaking down a few years into our marriage over things she couldn't tell me about, other than it was about things she "did" with a guy or guys. Did that kind of etch things permanently into my brain? Yes.

Nothing I've written here is new. Sometime soon she gets her own weekly therapist, just to deal with the stuff that happened that she doesn't remember, and how to deal with the mess that created. Hopefully there will be accountability. Frankly, in MC, accountability is optional, although at this last meeting my wife did try and remember a few more things and put it to paper. But the MC has not told her, directly, that it's up to her to reverse the damage and work to become more empathetic. 

I did speak privately with the MC for 15 minutes, after our last session. We both recognize that the issue, for my wife, is control. Control of the narrative, and control of the situation. She lost control of the situation with that one guy. And in the end, sex was something that was done to her, not by her or together. And I went over with the MC our first time, and how, up to that time, everything had been either controlled by her, or together. But sex? That was to her. She lied on her back and it was all up to me, everything. It likely was a repeat performance of what had happened before. 

I have asked the MC to privately address the issue of my wife's reluctance to accept responsibility, and her depression when the subject comes up, with her. This is an area in which the MC seems to fail. The MC will engage me in an email discussion if appropriate, if I initiate. But she won't initiate a discussion on her own, with either me (which is fine, I keep no secrets) or my wife. My wife needs direction, from someone she trusts. 

Thanks to all, and yes, you'd think at some point I'd give up, but there are people here who have said it has taken them several years of therapy to get where they need to be. I'm not going to wait for several years, but if I'm still writing this drivel March 2021, somebody does need to put me out of my misery. No smiley face here.


----------



## Casual Observer

*Another update- perhaps something newsworthy*

This evening I brought up her feeling "Why is it all about me" and depression in general over what's been going on. She's frustrated that it has to be an ongoing conversation, something she can't get away from. I get that. The problem is that she can't be allowed too much slack or progress goes in the wrong direction. Both of us want to move on; one of us realizes that moving on involves spending lots of time & effort fixing things first. The other... she's beginning to understand that she can't out-wait me on this.

But the newsworthy part comes from something I talked with the MC about, after our session (without my wife there). I brought up that she's got a strong need to be in control, that pretty much everything in her relationships saw her calling the shots. And I laid out things that had happened that one night prior to me, and how she was calling the shots, or at least sharing them, until... the moment the guy brought out the condom. All of a sudden she was no longer in control. She didn't know what to do. Sex was something done "to" her by this guy. She wrote that she didn't know if she enjoyed it or not. Which, for her, is code for not. She still has no real memory of it, but she started to get pretty emotional and said it makes sense.

And then, when we became a couple, eventually having our first time, guess what. Prior to sex, she was all about control but also shared experiences to some extent. But when it came to sex, the timing of which was chosen by her, guess what. For the first time in our relationship, she was not an amorous, engaged and controlling person. Looking back on it, and it kind of hurts to say and realize this, sex was done *to* her, again. And, just like the first time with the other guy, no fireworks, nothing at all. She couldn't exert any sort of control or show any knowledge of how things might happen because she couldn't let me know she'd lied about no prior experience.

In the years since, the literally thousands of times we've had sex, she could not say she ever felt in control. The idea that sex was done *to* her, rang true. And wow, does it hurt to hear something like that. She wondered aloud, "So sex really is the source of my trauma?" Maybe. She built up so much guilt about not following her narrative (saving herself for marriage) that she never found a way to enjoy PIV sex. Oral sex, not an issue and, guess what, that's partly about control isn't it? Because she knows she can command me at will for that. 

What a long strange trip it's been.


----------



## In Absentia

Can I ask you a question? Do you think your wife enjoys having sex with you? Or she does it for you? Meaning, if up to her, she could and would do without? Do you thinks she is doing it not to disappoint you and to keep you there? Because you need it? Is she doing it because she is scared you would left? What are the "real" reasons for "giving you" sex? Because to me, sex seems to be happening _to her_ again...


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## Casual Observer

In Absentia said:


> Can I ask you a question? Do you think your wife enjoys having sex with you? Or she does it for you? Meaning, if up to her, she could and would do without? Do you thinks she is doing it not to disappoint you and to keep you there? Because you need it? Is she doing it because she is scared you would left? What are the "real" reasons for "giving you" sex? Because to me, sex seems to be happening _to her_ again...


Correct. That’s largely been the case, and that’s the reason for MC and IC. The question is why, and can it be changed.


----------



## jlg07

CO, I'm sorry if I missed this -- did you wife definitely remember what happened? What that traumatic event was? OR is she guessing that it just had to do something with sex with the guy before you?


----------



## Casual Observer

OK, time for an update. To @jlg07 @In Absentia @Marduk @Blondilocks @Affaircare @Adelais @Holdingontoit @JustTheWife @Faithful Wife @ConanHub @minimalME , my wife remembers very, very little of what had gone on during a nearly one-year period of her life, from 17.5 to 18.5 years old. She's progressed from a monthly therapist to weekly MC with me for the past 8 months or so, and for the past two months, an EMDR specialist who's been trying to get to the root of her issues. She has been trickle-truthing everyone, but the EMDR specialist catches it pretty well and talks about her "deflecting" anything uncomfortable.

She had steadfastly maintained that, prior to meeting me, nothing had ever gotten very serious with guys, but we've gotten to the very painful point of understanding that her narrative wasn't true, and today she came to the realization that her narrative has pretty much completely fallen apart. But the ONLY progress is made when I push hard and she gets very upset; she seems to tell the truth only when really upset. The MC and IC generally try to not get a client upset, so nothing much happens in session. Only the EMDR therapist has ever challenged her, although the MC is asking her openly if she truly doesn't remember anything, or if shame is holding her back. Meantime, I am the bad guy because I have to keep the process going, or it stalls out.

Here's what she sent her EMDR therapist ahead of her next session-


> I would like to focus on the idea that I had basically "used myself up" before
> I ever even met him. I am talking about physically here, so that when the time came for me to "give
> myself to him", I had nothing to give. This may indeed be the crux of my problem and the reason for
> all this angst.


This is quite a major thing for her to come around to. The process has been excruciatingly painful, for both of us. She wants so desperately to remain married to me, but has this insanely-strong self-preservation instinct that won't allow her to question things she's done, now or in the past. Add to that her "talent" of forgetting most anything she doesn't want to think about, and more often than not it feels like you're just spinning wheels, at best.

For now, I am the one witholding sex; no more manipulation. Tables turned. We're civil, I still give her backrubs and take very good care of her, trying to anticipate her needs, as always.


----------



## minimalME

I'm gonna preface what I write by confessing that your posts are super uncomfortable for me, and I've chosen not to read most of them.

I don't know you at all, so I only go by what you write, but you come across as extremely selfish and controlling.

You seem determined to get into every corner of your wife's mind, regardless of the hurt and harm you cause to her.

You swiped her diary. You force her to have these ****ed up therapy sessions. You do creepy 'experiments' in bed. It's like there's no getting away from you. It's suffocating, and I feel so sorry for her.

To me, all this is crazy-making.

You write about her dissociating and not remembering, then a few words later, you accuse of her 'tickle truth'. These _are not_ synonymous terms - they're the opposite of one another.

And deflecting because she's uncomfortable sharing isn't a surprise to me at all. She's avoidant, and she doesn't feel safe with you or your specialist.

It's like you're emotionally torturing her.

You push hard, and she gets upset. No ****.

You say that she so desperately wants to stay married to you, but my guess is she's terrified of being older and alone.

I just can't imagine her genuinely wanting you anywhere near her.


----------



## In Absentia

Casual Observer said:


> She wants so desperately to remain married to me, but has this insanely-strong self-preservation instinct that won't allow her to question things she's done, now or in the past. Add to that her "talent" of forgetting most anything she doesn't want to think about, and more often than not it feels like you're just spinning wheels, at best.


This is what my wife does. She was prepared to risk our marriage and get divorced so she didn't have to go to a therapist and confront her ghosts. Your wife doesn't want to remember, although she remembers it very well. It's clear that she doesn't want to go there. She was managing fine, until you disrupted her hard work. You know, I've accepted it, after all these years. My wife will never change. I just wish she communicated more with me, so I could adjust my behaviour. But that's part of the illness.


----------



## Casual Observer

minimalME said:


> I'm gonna preface what I write by confessing that your posts are super uncomfortable for me, and I've chosen not to read most of them.
> 
> I don't know you at all, so I only go by what you write, but you come across as extremely selfish and controlling.
> 
> You seem determined to get into every corner of your wife's mind, regardless of the hurt and harm you cause to her.
> 
> You swiped her diary. You force her to have these ****ed up therapy sessions. You do creepy 'experiments' in bed. It's like there's no getting away from you. It's suffocating, and I feel so sorry for her.
> 
> To me, all this is crazy-making.
> 
> You write about her dissociating and not remembering, then a few words later, you accuse of her 'tickle truth'. These _are not_ synonymous terms - they're the opposite of one another.
> 
> And deflecting because she's uncomfortable sharing isn't a surprise to me at all. She's avoidant, and she doesn't feel safe with you or your specialist.
> 
> It's like you're emotionally torturing her.
> 
> You push hard, and she gets upset. No ****.
> 
> You say that she so desperately wants to stay married to you, but my guess is she's terrified of being older and alone.
> 
> I just can't imagine her genuinely wanting you anywhere near her.


I do understand where you’re coming from. I disagree; through my lens she has been manipulating me since shortly after we first met, controlling me by taking advantage of my trusting nature and assumption of truth, but mostly knowing how she could use my sense of responsibility and guilt to get her needs met. But that’s my lens.

*You force her to have these ed up therapy sessions. You do creepy 'experiments' in bed. It's like there's no getting away from you. It's suffocating, and I feel so sorry for her. I didn't design the therapy sessions.*_ I didn't choose the therapists (she LOVES the EMDR therapist, by the way). The creepy "experiment" you refer to was, in her words, the best bedroom experience she'd had in a long time. She had fun. For me, otherwise, because I was having to put myself in a really uncomfortable situation in my head. The suffocation thing? As I mentioned in a later post, she can turn anything off with the snap of a finger. 20 minutes later whatever was bothering her didn't happen. You said she's avoidant. In your own words, no ***_. There is now a direct link between accountability and seeing things get better, but you're right it's hard on her, and it's hard on me. A marriage that needs real work can't be fixed by wishful thinking one hour a week.

*"You push hard, and she gets upset. No ****." *I "push hard" because that's the ONLY time she will be honest. It took me far too long to learn that.

The most interesting thing so far to come of this is her view of why she doesn’t think she lies about things past or present. In her view, it’s not a lie if it’s said to keep from hurting someone. So you can add that to the list of ways that I’m a terrible person, thinking that’s kind of a core issue to be dealt with.

I included you because your thoughts often mirror my own concerns and I need to hear and carefully weigh them.


----------



## Blondilocks

Casual Observer said:


> I do understand where you’re coming from. I disagree; through my lens she has been manipulating me since shortly after we first met, controlling me by taking advantage of my trusting nature and assumption of truth, but mostly knowing how she could use my sense of responsibility and guilt to get her needs met. But that’s my lens.


mM isn't the first one to accuse you of torturing your wife. This paragraph could stand as evidence that you are deliberately punishing your wife.

You say your wife has a strong self-preservation instinct. I hope so. I'd hate to imagine you winding up with a wife who sits in the corner blubbering all day, every day.


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## Openminded

Yes, she’s obviously so afraid of divorce that she’ll do whatever it takes to keep you in the marriage. That doesn’t mean she really wants what you want. Fear, not interest, is the motivator for her. What you’re attempting to do is fundamentally change who she is very late in life because you feel she’s taken advantage of you all these decades. Maybe the end result will be what you’ve pushed so hard for. Maybe it won’t. The jury’s still out.


----------



## Casual Observer

Blondilocks said:


> mM isn't the first one to accuse you of torturing your wife. This paragraph could stand as evidence that you are deliberately punishing your wife.
> 
> You say your wife has a strong self-preservation instinct. I hope so. I'd hate to imagine you winding up with a wife who sits in the corner blubbering all day, every day.





Openminded said:


> Yes, she’s obviously so afraid of divorce that she’ll do whatever it takes to keep you in the marriage. That doesn’t mean she really wants what you want. Fear, not interest, is the motivator for her. What you’re attempting to do is fundamentally change who she is very late in life because you feel she’s taken advantage of you all these decades. Maybe the end result will be what you’ve pushed so hard for. Maybe it won’t. The jury’s still out.


And here’s the biggest difference between my wife and I. She can be upset on demand and then act like nothing ever happened. She can compartmentalize her feelings, bringing them out only when it suits her. I can’t do that. Her self-preservation mode is control.

Over the years she has lost pretty much every important relationship in her life, her mom, her dad, her church, her friends, because at some point they expressed concern about something she said or did so she blocked them out of her life.

Her past therapy and depression came about while I was passive and always having to explain to people that she’s not really that mean, that’s not what she meant to say. I never suggested that she fix herself because I was so protective of her. At one point she physically slapped a young employee of ours because she thought he was stupid. She could not understand why that was a serious issue.

She has burned through doctors trying to help her (for physical issues) any time they told her something she didn’t want to hear.

What she’s going through now is beginning to make a difference. You can see cracks in the ice. She is beginning to think that maybe It’s not something to be proud of, driving away your friends because they were always wrong.

A little example yesterday that says a lot. If she asks me to check out the masks she’s been showing, I don’t have to fake interest. I do it because it’s important to her and that makes it important to me. I asked her if she’s like to check out how my sunflowers are doing. She said no, she’s seen them a couple days ago.

She just can’t get into somebody else’s head to understand where they’re coming from. No empathy. That’s what this is really all about.


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## jlg07

I'm going to take the opposite side. I think CO is desperately trying to SAVE his marriage. Getting older and realizing more about what has gone on in the marriage and it no longer being acceptable, he is trying to work with his wife to get past the issues she has around this stuff.

I DO agree that once she DOES actually "remember" what that year was that she did (or maybe just admit it to him AND herself), things may change that are NOT good for the marriage, but maybe it will be.


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## Marduk

Folks, I think there's more going on here than you might think if you think he's pushing too hard. For one, I think he honestly wanted to leave and she wanted him to stay. And then she didn't do much. So I'm not sure how him holding her accountable to what she said she wanted is controlling.

Additionally, I think there's the real possibility of repressed trauma here on her side, and I can tell you that a few years of being in a marriage with that can be extremely problematic, hurtful, and can cause trauma on it's own. But I can also tell you that having a partner that holds you accountable to what you say you want and to what you have committed to can be vital in the process. I mean, I could tell you some horror stories of how I had to hold my wife's feet to the fire.

I think EMDR is a great path here, and I think it's good you've taken sex off the table here. Essentially you're got her in an emotional ICU and are hoping she gets better. I'd focus your efforts there. I don't think she even necessarily has to remember (although I do think she remembers more than she will ever admit), but I do think she needs to process it - and EMDR is fantastic at forcing your brain to grow new pathways to do that.


----------



## Openminded

I doubt all the therapy in the world will ever make her an empathetic person. She is who she is and at some point you’re going to have to accept that some things will never change. In other words, she isn’t going to become you.


----------



## Openminded

You‘ve gone way overboard protecting her for all these years and you really shouldn’t have.


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## oldtruck

can someone summarize this thread?

did his wife cheat?

what facts is he wanting?


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## Personal

oldtruck said:


> can someone summarize this thread?
> 
> did his wife cheat?
> 
> what facts is he wanting?


From what I understand.

No his wife didn't cheat on him.

His wife made the mistake of having a boyfriend, before she was ever involved with the OP when she was a teenager. On reading her diaries without permission multiple decades later, he found out that she dared to let her boyfriend touch her sexually, before he was with her and didn't tell him about it. In response he has gone on a crusade to excise his pound of flesh from her in order to pay for her egregious sin against him.

At the moment in order to try to save her marriage (Stockholm syndrome perhaps?), she's still bleeding for him to pay for her evil ways. If he keeps going on, at some point he will probably crush her psychologically. If he succeeds in doing that I don't know if that will satiate him sufficiently, yet I suspect it will not be enough.


----------



## Livvie

Actually I don't think that summarizes the situation. I think the problem involves the fact that his wife was excited about the sexual activity with the old boyfriend in a way she has never been with him. I think the diaries were a shock that she was sexually excited about someone.

Also, she is not interested in much of anything about CO, not just sexually, and her negative behaviors throughout life have driven most friends and family away. 

If there were not the issues of her lack of interest in CO and the decades of negative behaviors, the diary most likely wouldn't have been a problem.


----------



## oldtruck

Personal said:


> From what I understand.
> 
> No his wife didn't cheat on him.
> 
> His wife made the mistake of having a boyfriend, before she was ever involved with the OP when she was a teenager. On reading her diaries without permission multiple decades later, he found out that she dared to let her boyfriend touch her sexually, before he was with her and didn't tell him about it. In response he has gone on a crusade to excise his pound of flesh from her in order to pay for her egregious sin against him.
> 
> At the moment in order to try to save her marriage (Stockholm syndrome perhaps?), she's still bleeding for him to pay for her evil ways. If he keeps going on, at some point he will probably crush her psychologically. If he succeeds in doing that I don't know if that will satiate him sufficiently, yet I suspect it will not be enough.


thanks for refreshing my memory.
he does not have a leg to stand on. she did nothing wrong.
though i have to ask did she lie about her past to him?


----------



## In Absentia

Livvie said:


> Actually I don't think that summarizes the situation. I think the problem involves the fact that his wife was excited about the sexual activity with the old boyfriend in a way she has never been with him. I think the diaries were a shock that she was sexually excited about someone.
> 
> Also, she is not interested in much of anything about CO, not just sexually, and her negative behaviors throughout life have driven most friends and family away.
> 
> If there were not the issues of her lack of interest in CO and the decades of negative behaviors, the diary most likely wouldn't have been a problem.


This is not entirely correct. CO claims that he was chosen by his wife as a safe partner after undergoing her sexual trauma with her boyfriend. He was subjected to a fairly abysmal sexual life because of his wife's trauma, which she failed to communicate to him. After finding the diary, it all clicked and now CO is trying to get his wife to heal herself through therapy, in order to have a good sexual life/relationship in the late part of their marriage. The OP's wife is obviously resisting after all these years. As I said before, to me it's a bit pointless, but I'm the last person to be trusted regarding dealing with a wife with mental issues...


----------



## Livvie

We are uncertain there was a "trauma", and signs point to the trauma as perhaps feeling guilty for feeling lust and giving in to it with the previous boyfriend. I believe CO says the main problem is that she was _disappointed_ in the experience of actual intercourse the first time they had it and that's a huge part of the wife's issue with sex. Yeah, scratching my head on that one. First sexual experiences between young people, largely for females, are often anticlimactic (haa!!) or even crappy and somehow women around the world get over it and learn to make the experience better for themselves as they age.


----------



## JustTheWife

Casual Observer said:


> OK, time for an update. To @jlg07 @In Absentia @Marduk @Blondilocks @Affaircare @Adelais @Holdingontoit @JustTheWife @Faithful Wife @ConanHub @minimalME , my wife remembers very, very little of what had gone on during a nearly one-year period of her life, from 17.5 to 18.5 years old. She's progressed from a monthly therapist to weekly MC with me for the past 8 months or so, and for the past two months, an EMDR specialist who's been trying to get to the root of her issues. She has been trickle-truthing everyone, but the EMDR specialist catches it pretty well and talks about her "deflecting" anything uncomfortable.
> 
> She had steadfastly maintained that, prior to meeting me, nothing had ever gotten very serious with guys, but we've gotten to the very painful point of understanding that her narrative wasn't true, and today she came to the realization that her narrative has pretty much completely fallen apart. But the ONLY progress is made when I push hard and she gets very upset; she seems to tell the truth only when really upset. The MC and IC generally try to not get a client upset, so nothing much happens in session. Only the EMDR therapist has ever challenged her, although the MC is asking her openly if she truly doesn't remember anything, or if shame is holding her back. Meantime, I am the bad guy because I have to keep the process going, or it stalls out.
> 
> Here's what she sent her EMDR therapist ahead of her next session-This is quite a major thing for her to come around to. The process has been excruciatingly painful, for both of us. She wants so desperately to remain married to me, but has this insanely-strong self-preservation instinct that won't allow her to question things she's done, now or in the past. Add to that her "talent" of forgetting most anything she doesn't want to think about, and more often than not it feels like you're just spinning wheels, at best.
> 
> For now, I am the one witholding sex; no more manipulation. Tables turned. We're civil, I still give her backrubs and take very good care of her, trying to anticipate her needs, as always.


I don't really know what to make of this situation. Maybe you're frustrated because your wife can compartmentalize things and change her reality - this means that the truth will forever be elusive to you. You're trying to nail Jello to the wall. You will never know the truth and even if you get some or all of the truth, you can't really trust it. The events in question took place along time ago so it's all abstract now. She can remember it however she wants to remember it and can remember it different ways at different times. She can construct her own truth. 

I'm torn with my religion and my "traditional" view of male and female roles but the modern side of me would say that only she owns her past. It's up to her what she wants to make of it. If she wants to erase things from her past, that's her choice.

This pursuit has no end. The jello won't stay on the wall no matter what you do. You're just going to go around in circles. You know my situation so I say this to you as someone who knows this topic very well first hand. I also say it as someone who cares.


----------



## Casual Observer

Livvie said:


> Actually I don't think that summarizes the situation. I think the problem involves the fact that his wife was excited about the sexual activity with the old boyfriend in a way she has never been with him. I think the diaries were a shock that she was sexually excited about someone.
> 
> Also, she is not interested in much of anything about CO, not just sexually, and her negative behaviors throughout life have driven most friends and family away.
> 
> If there were not the issues of her lack of interest in CO and the decades of negative behaviors, the diary most likely wouldn't have been a problem.





oldtruck said:


> thanks for refreshing my memory.
> he does not have a leg to stand on. she did nothing wrong.
> though i have to ask did she lie about her past to him?





In Absentia said:


> This is not entirely correct. CO claims that he was chosen by his wife as a safe partner after undergoing her sexual trauma with her boyfriend. He was subjected to a fairly abysmal sexual life because of his wife's trauma, which she failed to communicate to him. After finding the diary, it all clicked and now CO is trying to get his wife to heal herself through therapy, in order to have a good sexual life/relationship in the late part of their marriage. The OP's wife is obviously resisting after all these years. As I said before, to me it's a bit pointless, but I'm the last person to be trusted regarding dealing with a wife with mental issues...





Livvie said:


> We are uncertain there was a "trauma", and signs point to the trauma as perhaps feeling guilty for feeling lust and giving in to it with the previous boyfriend. I believe CO says the main problem is that she was _disappointed_ in the experience of actual intercourse the first time they had it and that's a huge part of the wife's issue with sex. Yeah, scratching my head on that one. First sexual experiences between young people, largely for females, are often anticlimactic (haa!!) or even crappy and somehow women around the world get over it and learn to make the experience better for themselves as they age.


OK, time to come back to the thread about some interesting counseling sessions and developments.

But first, my wife is very interested in me in non-sexual ways. She does, in her own way, "love" me very much. Just without passion, without sex being a needed part of the equation.

The developments- For those new to the thread, there wasn't an assumption of virginity on her part, it was a very loud declaration. In the end, it turns out there was not just one guy, but two, could have been a couple more. The details about whatever followed don't really matter. The number doesn't matter. What turns out to matter is that nothing really looks like trauma. More like a bit over a year of her life that she regretted terribly, because what she'd done was so different from her religious beliefs and her father's expectations of her. She got trapped by the power she held over guys, and then severely disillusioned when she felt forgotten and burned. Hey, who hasn't, right?

And what it's looking like is really pretty darned simple. Anything that reminds her of things she did before brings up memories she doesn't want to experience. And that means... flirtation, being squeezed during sex, sex itself, showers together. And because she made such a bold lie, I thought it was me, I thought I'd "wrecked" her by having sex before we were married (after 6 months of dating... I'm not an easy lay). She trapped herself in that lie and couldn't get help. And it looks like everything flows from that.

The process of coming to terms with who she is, reconciling her past, is beginning to help. The other day she said "It doesn't seem right that I let a year of regret from 42 years ago punish 40 years of marriage."

The EMDR is definitely helping. The biggest stumbling block might have been overcome last week when she severely misled her therapist and I called her on it. For reasons unknown, my wife and the therapist thought it would be OK, a good idea evern, to tape a session and let me see what it's like. I will never, ever, do that again. But turned out to be a good thing this one time, because I got to listen to the therapist explain to my wife that maybe the reason she doesn't enjoy sex, finds it boring and repetitious, is because her husband (that's me!) doesn't ask what she'd like, doesn't surprise her with things like flower or nights out or getting her something nice to wear or being spontaneous in general. And she agreed with the therapist. And it's like, this list of maybe 12 things the therapist suggested, and I can tick off 11 of the boxes. And my wife later said maybe I nail all 12. But what did my wife do? She went along with everything that put the responsibility on me, moving the session in a pointless direction.

Did I hit the fan? Oh yeah. Emotionally I was a wreck. This has always been an issue for her; misleading someone trying to get to the truth. She called her therapist back and told her the truth (I was not around to hear it, intentionally so) and the therapist is now aware of the need to challenge my wife's replies. And, interesting thing, my wife seems greatly relieved about this. It was a big hurdle for her; she's been spinning tales and thus delaying efforts to help her for nearly a year.

What have I learned. "Triggers" and "trauma" are not synonymous. "Triggers" might be every bit as important though. Should I have divorced at the various windows I'd considered it? 32 years ago, 25 (after two kids and considering either a vasectomy or tubal ligation; I turned down the vasectomy because I honestly was thinking I might be starting over at some point), 5 years ago, and then very strongly 2 years ago... all before discovery of "the diary." Should I have? I don't think so. I feel badly that I've been denied something others take for granted, passion from your partner, but I do love her very much and whatever she is, after all this time, she's partly something I have had something to do with.

Sure, it hurts a lot to come here and read people saying that I'm cruel to her or that she's just not into me. Sometimes both from the same person. But, as they say, it could be that the purpose of my life is to serve as a warning to others, and I think I may have put up quite a flare. Thanks for the insights, harshly critical and hopeful/helpful. It's all appreciated. Keeps me grounded. There's always another way of looking at something; self-doubt is often under-rated.

And... it's really way too early to tell, but I think I'm beginning to see signs that sex could become something she appreciates as being an important thing in a marriage and not be averse to. The weirdest thing remains her inability to flirt. She sees flirting as absolutely a terrible thing because she was so good at it before we met. She sees it having led to every bad thing that ever happened to her. She just does not want to do it. But after giving her a bad time about it tonight (in a humorous way), after she claimed again she doesn't know how to, even if I give her the lines myself... she actually came up with a couple on her own. I was quite surprised. Her job is to follow through, to connect with me once or twice at work tomorrow. I think she might even do it.


----------



## Casual Observer

JustTheWife said:


> I don't really know what to make of this situation. Maybe you're frustrated because your wife can compartmentalize things and change her reality - this means that the truth will forever be elusive to you. You're trying to nail Jello to the wall. You will never know the truth and even if you get some or all of the truth, you can't really trust it. The events in question took place along time ago so it's all abstract now. She can remember it however she wants to remember it and can remember it different ways at different times. She can construct her own truth.
> 
> I'm torn with my religion and my "traditional" view of male and female roles but the modern side of me would say that only she owns her past. It's up to her what she wants to make of it. If she wants to erase things from her past, that's her choice.
> 
> This pursuit has no end. The jello won't stay on the wall no matter what you do. You're just going to go around in circles. You know my situation so I say this to you as someone who knows this topic very well first hand. I also say it as someone who cares.


Thanks; you can read my longer reply immediately above this for the reasons I find hope that I'm not trying to nail jello to the wall. Her situation is not as different from yours as first appeared, except for the absolute declaration of virginity on her part which caused me to so badly misread things and assume I had caused her extreme guilt when I "took" her virginity. This all sounds so crass and vulgar. But I think the big moment of change came when, after going over things with her individual therapist, forwarding her some excerpts, the therapist begins the next session with "So, you had sex with x..." And then later when the therapist learned she (the therapist) has to challenge my wife on things to get the truthful, rather than convenient, answer. 

As I mentioned in the prior response, we were going down a wrong road looking for trauma. It turns out to be all about triggers. And having no close friend to confide in. She didn't do anything unusual for a high school senior or college freshman. She just dealt with it really badly. As always, I appreciate your candor and experience.


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## Openminded

It‘s true that people love differently and the way someone loves you may not be how you want to be loved. But your wife has a strong streak of selfishness and stubbornness going (I’ve forgotten the examples that you’ve given in the past but there were several). What I’m saying is that sex isn’t the only issue between the two of you or between her and the rest of the world (slapping an employee?). Hopefully therapy will address that as well. The question is can she fundamentally change who she is and not only as it relates to sex. Maybe her fear of divorce is strong enough that she can reinvent herself late in life but she’ll be one of the very few success stories if she can.


----------



## Casual Observer

Openminded said:


> It‘s true that people love differently and the way someone loves you may not be how you want to be loved. But your wife has a strong streak of selfishness and stubbornness going (I’ve forgotten the examples that you’ve given in the past but there were several). What I’m saying is that sex isn’t the only issue between the two of you or between her and the rest of the world (slapping an employee?). Hopefully therapy will address that as well. The question is can she fundamentally change who she is and not only as it relates to sex. Maybe her fear of divorce is strong enough that she can reinvent herself late in life but she’ll be one of the very few success stories if she can.


No question you’re right about selfishness and being stubborn. We talked about that last night. A lot depends upon her level of honesty with her therapist. She seems more willing to stop deflecting and actually try to be open so the therapist actually knows what she’s dealing with. We will see.


----------



## Casual Observer

Latest update-
The Groundhog Day thing. I thought that was finally past us, a few weeks ago, when her EMDR specialist, after being forwarded sections of her diary, began a session with "So, you had sex with "x"." "X" wasn't the person who started this whole journey; "X: was a guy she'd met a year prior. So now we've moved from her struggle to maintain her "I waited for marriage" narrative to two different guys she'd been fully intimate with. The idea that I had wrecked things for sex for her by having sex before marriage has kinda flown the coup. But this was real progress.

Until a week later, and she says "I really don't believe I had sex with "X"." Despite stuff like "the crucial step of giving up all of myself for a guy I truly love" and other pretty obvious things. I told her that didn't work for me. There was no point in going through all this therapy if she was going to keep taking steps backward. There was no accountability on her part.

So yesterday she has a massive, gnarly, exhausting EMDR session centered entirely on this guy. And all of a sudden, finally, why the hell does this take so long, she starts seeing all the "triggers" that have caused her problems. All the things that went on that she didn't want to do again because they brought back memories of things she didn't want to remember, because she was so ashamed of what she'd done. The choices she'd made. So those triggers... showers with a guy. Touching a penis. Oral sex (on a guy). Sex itself. All things that she'd really enjoyed.

How does anyone get this screwed up? She never processed any of this crap; it was all just stuff she didn't want to remember, so anything that caused her to remember it became something to avoid. The ONLY thing I've got going for me, to be revealing a bit TMI maybe, is that none of her boyfriends were any good at oral on her. Except me. So that's the ONE thing, the ONLY thing, that she associates positively with sex.

Is it really this simple? So the process now is to get rid of her shame for past decisions, convince her that it was pretty normal stuff for a 17 or 18 year old girl, and that it was nothing she had to hide from me and live in fear of being known. And maybe that will take the poison away from all those triggers. But she's been living with that series of triggers, that distaste for all sorts of normal intimate things, for 42 years. How do you change that? I'm told, over and over, it takes time. But when does the clock start running? How many times have I thought she was finally getting serious and dealing with this stuff, only to regress again?

But last night was the first time she told me she accepts responsibility for screwing up sex in our marriage. The night before, she was still into the "Why should something from so long ago matter" mode. But now it seems she accepts that it does, because it's been there from the beginning, and she's been powerless, on her own, to do anything about it.

Yes, it hurts to read of the angst and passion that she never shared with me, because she was trying so hard to hide from herself. We never got the chance to work things out. She was fine with me believing that it was my fault, because _I_ found sex too important, while she was fine with it once or twice a month, at most. She could never admit, to me, that she was a sexual person.

It's all really strange. But I can't shake my hope. I do so love this woman. I still think I can arouse her passion. I believe, perhaps naively, that at some point her rational mind kicks in and recognizes how stupid this has been for us, that she becomes OK with her own past, honest with herself, and that the best years of our lives are ahead of us.

But I suspect there are multiple parts to any success, and what I've spoken of here, becoming honest with herself, accepting her past, might need to be coupled with sex therapy as well (this was suggested by both her therapist and our MC). She needs to become comfortable with sexual pleasure in general. I don't know what that will take, but I think we have moved towards an almost-neutral position towards sex, which is a big step from being really very much against it.

Obviously, the "Why the hell haven't you given up already? Can't you see she's not going to change after all these years?" is going to come up in replies. But there's a new sense of honesty that hasn't been there before. That counts for something.


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## sokillme

This thread is exhausting.


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## jlg07

CO, this was posted a while ago -- any updates on how your W is doing with her therapy?


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## Casual Observer

sokillme said:


> This thread is exhausting.


Welcome to my life.


jlg07 said:


> CO, this was posted a while ago -- any updates on how your W is doing with her therapy?


Most of me thinks it best to ignore your request, but you did ask nicely. 

Been through a couple more, including one that she really respected, who was someone she’d known from way back, but… the therapist ended up firing my wife as a client because she questioned my wife’s sincerity. She’s presently seeing a specialist dealing with shame and guilt issues who’s telling her she needs to change her attitude before any understanding of root cause will matter.


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## romantic_dreamer

From my personal experience I learnt there should be no secrets in marriage. When two partners are about to start life together they should tell each other absolutely everything. Anything kept secret will eventually be revealed and can damage or even destroy long term otherwise happy marriage.


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## Casual Observer

So here's my take.

If you carry a secret into your marriage, and it's something that, if discovered, could severely damage the relationship, then-

- You may be marrying the wrong person. It doesn't really matter if you feel your potential life partner shouldn't know about it. Secrets have a way of being discovered, and it's on you, not your partner, if you know ahead of time it would be really damaging to find out later. Find someone for whom it wouldn't be an issue, and, just to make sure, tell them.

- You're denying your partner agency. This is not an insignificant thing. Your partner deserves to make their best-possible choice, for themselves, regarding the person they might be spending the rest of their life with.

- No partner should ever get the feeling that they're Plan B without the foundation of understanding that Plan B might be a good thing if it's grown into, rather than suddenly discovered. When I think how differently I would feel, today, if my then-girlfriend had told me that her past was something she needed to move on from, it wasn't sustainable, she needed stability & loyalty & a secure love that's not based on risk-based thrill and pain but rather someone who will always be there for you, smooth out life's peaks and valleys and make growing older something to look forward to... yeah, I'd buy into that, big time. But to discover it later is deadly.

If both of you set up boundaries ahead of time, what's off limits, what matters, what doesn't matter, and both of you respect and share 100% within that framework, then great. But if one of you essentially takes advantage of the situation by knowing much more about your partner than your partner knows about you, because you held back, that's ethically reprehensible. It's like insider trading in the stock market. One person holds an advantage over the other.

Does this mean that our past essentially brands us, forever? No. It means we need a relationship in which we continue to grow and explore change, and that our partner is part of that journey. Our partner won't ever be blindsided because he or she will have a framework for understanding the direction and purpose of our choices. 

It does mean that our past hugely influences our future. Yeah, it does. Get over it. It doesn't destroy our future, but it shapes it, it creates different opportunities, it alters the subset of those we're going to be compatible with.

Again, reiterated for the thousandth time, you don't have to tell your partner everything about your past!!! You just have to find a partner for whom that past, if discovered, won't be an issue. That's a really tough ask though, isn't it? How do you know? The #1 way you know is your own fear that your past could be a real issue. Find someone for whom that won't be the case, or spill the beans and see what happens. Before marriage. During the vetting process.


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## Beach123

Why do you keep torturing yourself?
She doesn’t enjoy sex. She enjoys blaming you for things she has done. 
You two shouldn’t have to work this hard to enjoy a life together.
It’s not a good match.


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## sokillme

Casual Observer said:


> So here's my take.
> 
> If you carry a secret into your marriage, and it's something that, if discovered, could severely damage the relationship, then-
> 
> - You may be marrying the wrong person. It doesn't really matter if you feel your potential life partner shouldn't know about it. Secrets have a way of being discovered, and it's on you, not your partner, if you know ahead of time it would be really damaging to find out later. Find someone for whom it wouldn't be an issue, and, just to make sure, tell them.
> 
> - You're denying your partner agency. This is not an insignificant thing. Your partner deserves to make their best-possible choice, for themselves, regarding the person they might be spending the rest of their life with.
> 
> - No partner should ever get the feeling that they're Plan B without the foundation of understanding that Plan B might be a good thing if it's grown into, rather than suddenly discovered. When I think how differently I would feel, today, if my then-girlfriend had told me that her past was something she needed to move on from, it wasn't sustainable, she needed stability & loyalty & a secure love that's not based on risk-based thrill and pain but rather someone who will always be there for you, smooth out life's peaks and valleys and make growing older something to look forward to... yeah, I'd buy into that, big time. But to discover it later is deadly.
> 
> If both of you set up boundaries ahead of time, what's off limits, what matters, what doesn't matter, and both of you respect and share 100% within that framework, then great. But if one of you essentially takes advantage of the situation by knowing much more about your partner than your partner knows about you, because you held back, that's ethically reprehensible. It's like insider trading in the stock market. One person holds an advantage over the other.
> 
> Does this mean that our past essentially brands us, forever? No. It means we need a relationship in which we continue to grow and explore change, and that our partner is part of that journey. Our partner won't ever be blindsided because he or she will have a framework for understanding the direction and purpose of our choices.
> 
> It does mean that our past hugely influences our future. Yeah, it does. Get over it. It doesn't destroy our future, but it shapes it, it creates different opportunities, it alters the subset of those we're going to be compatible with.
> 
> Again, reiterated for the thousandth time, you don't have to tell your partner everything about your past!!! You just have to find a partner for whom that past, if discovered, won't be an issue. That's a really tough ask though, isn't it? How do you know? The #1 way you know is your own fear that your past could be a real issue. Find someone for whom that won't be the case, or spill the beans and see what happens. Before marriage. During the vetting process.


Yeah, it was terribly unfair that she did that to you. However it is what it is at this point. You were cheated and you have a right to be upset. Have you talked to her about this, what is her response?


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## farsidejunky

Why does it matter? It is clear that, despite everyone around you (but you) questioning her integrity, you aren't willing to do anything about it beyond somehow hoping she will change, while you continue to give her a benefit of the doubt that she no longer deserves. 

At this point, you should either let it go or let her go.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Casual Observer

sokillme said:


> Yeah, it was terribly unfair that she did that to you. However it is what it is at this point. You were cheated and you have a right to be upset. Have you talked to her about this, what is her response?


That's what's taken so long. It has been extraordinarily difficult to get to the point where she can understand the issue, largely because, for so very long, she was in 100% denial that it was true. I mean, literally, 100%. As in bizzaro world, and that really didn't change completely until this past July, when I actually spoke with one of her ex boyfriends and confirmed things. She is very gradually becoming aware of the effect something like that might have on a partner (me). Until now, she has been focused upon her wanting to pretend nothing ever happened, and how to live in a world where she felt everyone is at fault but herself (not talking about relationship with me but rather day to day life... 100% in victim mode). *THIS IS CHANGING!!!* 


farsidejunky said:


> Why does it matter? It is clear that, despite everyone around you (but you) questioning her integrity, you aren't willing to do anything about it beyond somehow hoping she will change, while you continue to give her a benefit of the doubt that she no longer deserves.
> 
> At this point, you should either let it go or let her go.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


And your response is why I hesitate to update anything in "my" thread but instead point out issues that could lead to problems for others. My ship is on a very long journey, with things very gradually improving. As noted above, there was a pivotal moment this past July. But for the most point, my journey serves more as a warning to others, stuff to think about from the beginning, as well as the potential futility of trying to fix things long after they broke. Another way of saying, it could be the purpose of my life is to serve as a warning to others. 

As for whether I'm willing to do something about it... odd question. Obviously I am doing something about it. I've been doing something about it for some time. Counseling and therapy was a line drawn in the sand, by my, for staying married. I was ready to go. It was, and is, up to her to recognize her choices and make an informed decision about our future. She has the agency I was denied. 

But again, and again, and again...my thread is a warning about the dangers of keeping secrets that could damage your relationship if discovered. That's pretty much everything in a nutshell.


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## sokillme

Casual Observer said:


> That's what's taken so long. It has been extraordinarily difficult to get to the point where she can understand the issue, largely because, for so very long, she was in 100% denial that it was true. I mean, literally, 100%. As in bizzaro world, and that really didn't change completely until this past July, when I actually spoke with one of her ex boyfriends and confirmed things. She is very gradually becoming aware of the effect something like that might have on a partner (me). Until now, she has been focused upon her wanting to pretend nothing ever happened, and how to live in a world where she felt everyone is at fault but herself (not talking about relationship with me but rather day to day life... 100% in victim mode). *THIS IS CHANGING!!!*
> And your response is why I hesitate to update anything in "my" thread but instead point out issues that could lead to problems for others. My ship is on a very long journey, with things very gradually improving. As noted above, there was a pivotal moment this past July. But for the most point, my journey serves more as a warning to others, stuff to think about from the beginning, as well as the potential futility of trying to fix things long after they broke. Another way of saying, it could be the purpose of my life is to serve as a warning to others.
> 
> As for whether I'm willing to do something about it... odd question. Obviously I am doing something about it. I've been doing something about it for some time. Counseling and therapy was a line drawn in the sand, by my, for staying married. I was ready to go. It was, and is, up to her to recognize her choices and make an informed decision about our future. She has the agency I was denied.
> 
> But again, and again, and again...my thread is a warning about the dangers of keeping secrets that could damage your relationship if discovered. That's pretty much everything in a nutshell.


Are you sure it was that she didn't understand the issue or that she had no fear that the issue would have any effect on her? I'm sorry but having read thousands of stories like online now I think the vast majority of people don't care if it doesn't effect them, even the nice ones. Up until this point you were willing to put up with it and all was good. It's no coincidence as you have been pushing harder and harder now she starts to acknowledge it. I just don't think it pays to be nice about it or anything. Better to make people uncomfortable if you are unhappy. 

If I am unhappy you are going to be unhappy. Now I am not talking about standard stuff. But if it's serious yeah, we are going to suffer together or not at all.

Anyway, I get it that is not an opinion most people are conformable with.


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## Blondilocks

Casual Observer said:


> It was, and is, up to her to recognize her choices and* make an informed decision about our future. *She has the agency I was denied.


What? You have agency and, yet, you are passing the buck to your wife who you already know makes decisions in her favor. You know why this is dragging out so long? Because you refuse to use your agency to change the situation. You have ceded all power and responsibility to your wife and she has had zero consequences. Good luck with that approach.


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## AGoodFlogging

It is both impressive and deeply sad to see someone with such faith and hope in someone's ability to change despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Even the professionals can't help the wife. She has been through a string of them lying and being insincere. Here current therapist has said she has a lousy attitude. I suspect any progress will be very small.

CO, I think the progress you believe you are seeing with your wife is simply your hope being projected onto her. I think her ability to manipulate her situation and reinvent herself is too much of a fundamental part of herself to ever really change. This behaviour was forged in her as a young woman who found it the only way to make her sexual and romantic appetites work with the confines of her upbringing. It is very sad.


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## Casual Observer

Blondilocks said:


> What? You have agency and, yet, you are passing the buck to your wife who you already know makes decisions in her favor. You know why this is dragging out so long? Because you refuse to use your agency to change the situation. You have ceded all power and responsibility to your wife and she has had zero consequences. Good luck with that approach.


Zero consequences for my wife? Like she has nothing better to do with her life than see therapists who eventually tell her the same thing, in shorter and shorter amounts of time?

We do finally have a source for much of her dysfunction. Bill Gothard’s “Institute on Basic Youth Conflicts” which, in 1974, was convincing parents of the need to control their daughters to keep them from tempting young men, and that sex before marriage was a sin that God would not forgive; after that, they didn’t deserve what awaited those who waited. Same guy also said you shouldn’t adopt because orphans are born from evil… the sins of their parents somehow stayed with them.

IShe attended a six-day gig held in a huge arena. It’s a cult-like form of religious abuse of authority. If you did sin your only hope for redemption was to go before your church and confess. Elsewise you would not be saved.

Many young women survived this intact, but many were hugely affected and convinced themselves they were terribly unworthy whores _or_ in some cases retracted their loss of virginity from their narrative. In my wife’s case, multiple times.

So yes, I’m grasping at reasons to consider that she’s been damaged pretty severely by all of that.


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## jonty30

Casual Observer said:


> Zero consequences for my wife? Like she has nothing better to do with her life than see therapists who eventually tell her the same thing, in shorter and shorter amounts of time?
> 
> We do finally have a source for much of her dysfunction. Bill Gothard’s “Institute on Basic Youth Conflicts” which, in 1974, was convincing parents of the need to control their daughters to keep them from tempting young men, and that sex before marriage was a sin that God would not forgive; after that, they didn’t deserve what awaited those who waited. Same guy also said you shouldn’t adopt because orphans are born from evil… the sins of their parents somehow stayed with them.
> 
> IShe attended a six-day gig held in a huge arena. It’s a cult-like form of religious abuse of authority. If you did sin your only hope for redemption was to go before your church and confess. Elsewise you would not be saved.
> 
> Many young women survived this intact, but many were hugely affected and convinced themselves they were terribly unworthy whores _or_ in some cases retracted their loss of virginity from their narrative. In my wife’s case, multiple times.
> 
> So yes, I’m grasping at reasons to consider that she’s been damaged pretty severely by all of that.


I read about half the thread so far and I will say that,despite having been denied a healthy sex life with your wife, you've given her a great gift. 
This is something that most husbands would not have given their wives if they were in a similar relationship with her. 
I respect you for that.


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## Casual Observer

jonty30 said:


> I read about half the thread so far and I will say that,despite having been denied a healthy sex life with your wife, you've given her a great gift.
> This is something that most husbands would not have given their wives if they were in a similar relationship with her.
> I respect you for that.


But many would suggest it’s not fair telling her she has to deal with things she hasn’t wanted to deal with. That her perspective, her need to keep those secrets hidden, should be somehow respected. That it’s torture “forcing” her to deal with it.

Hopefully, her therapists have told her she’s empowered to decide for herself if it’s worth the effort or end the marriage. That it’s a legit option. I’ve asked about this, and she claims it has been emphasized, and that it’s her choice to stay married and deal with trying to repair herself and our relationship.


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## jonty30

Casual Observer said:


> But many would suggest it’s not fair telling her she has to deal with things she hasn’t wanted to deal with. That her perspective, her need to keep those secrets hidden, should be somehow respected. That it’s torture “forcing” her to deal with it.
> 
> Hopefully, her therapists have told her she’s empowered to decide for herself if it’s worth the effort or end the marriage. That it’s a legit option. I’ve asked about this, and she claims it has been emphasized, and that it’s her choice to stay married and deal with trying to repair herself and our relationship.


The most frightening thing a person has to deal with lays deep within themselves. Most people lack the ability to reach down within themselves and pull out what is keeping them from true intimacy. I suspect most that are criticizing you are reflecting upon their own secrets and their unwillingness to deal with themselves. 
Myself included.


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## AGoodFlogging

Casual Observer said:


> Zero consequences for my wife? Like she has nothing better to do with her life than see therapists who eventually tell her the same thing, in shorter and shorter amounts of time?


That isn't a consequence I am afraid. It is a symptom of someone who is not benefitting from therapy.



> We do finally have a source for much of her dysfunction. Bill Gothard’s “Institute on Basic Youth Conflicts” which, in 1974, was convincing parents of the need to control their daughters to keep them from tempting young men, and that sex before marriage was a sin that God would not forgive; after that, they didn’t deserve what awaited those who waited. Same guy also said you shouldn’t adopt because orphans are born from evil… the sins of their parents somehow stayed with them.
> 
> IShe attended a six-day gig held in a huge arena. It’s a cult-like form of religious abuse of authority. If you did sin your only hope for redemption was to go before your church and confess. Elsewise you would not be saved.
> 
> Many young women survived this intact, but many were hugely affected and convinced themselves they were terribly unworthy whores _or_ in some cases retracted their loss of virginity from their narrative. In my wife’s case, multiple times.
> 
> So yes, I’m grasping at reasons to consider that she’s been damaged pretty severely by all of that.


Does this mean that you can accept her behaviour towards you and your marriage? Because if not then you have not gone very far. She maybe has, although with what you have said about her experiences in therapy I really am not sure that this has led to any startling realisation.

I'm sorry to be harsh about this but I've seen plenty of people fall into the trap of believing that understanding the source of past trauma will automatically lead to a change in behaviour in the present. It just isn't true, it certainly is an important first step, but it is far from certain that any changes will follow.


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## RandomDude

I lied to my ex about porn. She forbad it because she wanted more sex, all pipes to lead to her etc etc. Not proud of it, and I would bet that drove a serious wedge between us when she found out last year.

There has just been too many times I simply wasn't turned on or wasn't in the mood or upset with her and I would rather rub one off myself than do the chore of duty sex. Yup, many times I picked her up from a horny/loving mood only to get a barrage of crap and then expected to perform after it. Discussion about it was a brick wall, there existed only one standard that was relevant - hers. So, I lied.

I pride myself in honesty so it's been haunting me really how I could have done things differently. I actually told her I was breaking up with her over it when she found out because I didn't see us recovering from it. Then she revealed to me that she wasn't fully honest either and she knew for a long time, I am a sh-t liar, guilt becomes evident in my face, I try to avoid the subject and I don't cover my tracks. Why I even bothered.

Well, never again, next time if anyone puts me in a situation like that I'm just going to break up with them there and then. No relationship is worth sacrificing your own virtues to sustain. BAH!


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## Casual Observer

RandomDude said:


> I lied to my ex about porn. She forbad it because she wanted more sex, all pipes to lead to her etc etc. Not proud of it, and I would bet that drove a serious wedge between us when she found out last year.
> 
> There has just been too many times I simply wasn't turned on or wasn't in the mood or upset with her and I would rather rub one off myself than do the chore of duty sex. Yup, many times I picked her up from a horny/loving mood only to get a barrage of crap and then expected to perform after it. Discussion about it was a brick wall, there existed only one standard that was relevant - hers. So, I lied.
> 
> I pride myself in honesty so it's been haunting me really how I could have done things differently. I actually told her I was breaking up with her over it when she found out because I didn't see us recovering from it. Then she revealed to me that she wasn't fully honest either and she knew for a long time, I am a sh-t liar, guilt becomes evident in my face, I try to avoid the subject and I don't cover my tracks. Why I even bothered.
> 
> Well, never again, next time if anyone puts me in a situation like that I'm just going to break up with them there and then. No relationship is worth sacrificing your own virtues to sustain. BAH!


Not sure what you’re making a case for. From where I sit, if you’d been honest at the start, you either could have figured out if that was a deal breaker before it became one. Maybe that’s what you’re saying? That lying made a bad situation worse?


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## RandomDude

Casual Observer said:


> Not sure what you’re making a case for. From where I sit, if you’d been honest at the start, you either could have figured out if that was a deal breaker before it became one. Maybe that’s what you’re saying? That lying made a bad situation worse?


Deal breaker? The banning of porn was her one of her solutions to increase my sex drive. I failed in my end of the bargain and so did she with her complaints and demands.

Of course it made it worse but at that time neither of us were ready to let our relationship go despite the incompatibilities. Meh


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