# Why do councilling and family support resources not speak of men in womens' midlife c



## Spotthedeaddog

Worked my butt off for 15 years to support the family, who didn't want to shift when work forced me to move. busted my arse, burnt friendships, relationships, took horrendous risks to be there whenever I could. Came to every child thing I could manage. Worked 12-17 hours a day, 7 days week, 8 years - only breaks I had was to spend time with them.
Business partners finally wanted to retire so I sold up, and put everything into a couple of rental properties and a house just down the road from them....

And she is having her mid life crisis.

Why aren't men (and government and culture) aware that women go through this mid life crisis ?! I have put my entire life into supporting them and trying to build a future only to be treated like absolute ****, I am the enemy I can't open my mouth without being told how wrong and nasty I am or just outright ignored.

I read up on the (little) literature that exists, and all I can find supports the "poor woman rediscovering herself" and talking how wonder it is she can "re-invent" who she wants to be......usually by ditching the poor guy who thought they were in for the long haul (like she demanded early in the relationship). And all the responses are so positive about how wonderful it is for her, how empowering, how much she "deserves it".

If I gave my wife this much pain and loss, I'd be imprisoned. (it's not like I've done anything wrong!!!! I'm finally getting to come home :crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying


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## EleGirl

I'm sorry you have the need to be here. It sucks. I know.

What do you mean when you say that you are finally getting to come home? Does that mean that the two of you are getting back together?



spotthedeaddog said:


> If I gave my wife this much pain and loss, I'd be imprisoned. (it's not like I've done anything wrong!!!!


I do want to comment on the above. Men and women both do these sorts of things. It’s not just women. It’s not true that if you caused your wife this much pain and loss, you be imprisoned.


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## Bibi1031

I'm truly sorry you are going through this. 

Could you tell us a little more about your story?

Are you separated or is your wife still with you?

Did she have an affair?

Do you have a support system in real life that can help you through these very difficult times?

Do you feel overwhelmed, with panic attacks or suicidal? If you do, please seek medical assistance ASAP.




Please tell us more,


Bibi


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## aine

spotthedeaddog said:


> Worked my butt off for 15 years to support the family, who didn't want to shift when work forced me to move. busted my arse, burnt friendships, relationships, took horrendous risks to be there whenever I could. Came to every child thing I could manage. Worked 12-17 hours a day, 7 days week, 8 years - only breaks I had was to spend time with them.
> Business partners finally wanted to retire so I sold up, and put everything into a couple of rental properties and a house just down the road from them....
> 
> And she is having her mid life crisis.
> 
> Why aren't men (and government and culture) aware that women go through this mid life crisis ?! I have put my entire life into supporting them and trying to build a future only to be treated like absolute ****, I am the enemy I can't open my mouth without being told how wrong and nasty I am or just outright ignored.
> 
> I read up on the (little) literature that exists, and all I can find supports the "poor woman rediscovering herself" and talking how wonder it is she can "re-invent" who she wants to be......usually by ditching the poor guy who thought they were in for the long haul (like she demanded early in the relationship). And all the responses are so positive about how wonderful it is for her, how empowering, how much she "deserves it".
> 
> If I gave my wife this much pain and loss, I'd be imprisoned. (it's not like I've done anything wrong!!!! I'm finally getting to come home :crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying



Sorry you are in this place. if it is any consolation both men and women have MLCs. However, you may be specifically talking about the female perimenopause/menopause which for some couples can be extremely difficult. However, there is a lot of helpful (and no helpful) literature out there to help couples through this time if you so care to consider it.
Men Surviving Menopause: You and the Woman You Love At Midlife by Paul Selinger. This book is written from a man's point of view which is useful as much is written from a women's viewpoint.

If you could speak to your wife about this it would help. She may be in denial or not wanting to face the reality of her moods, etc. It will be worth a try.


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## Spotthedeaddog

Bibi1031 said:


> I'm truly sorry you are going through this.
> 
> Could you tell us a little more about your story?
> 
> Are you separated or is your wife still with you?
> 
> Did she have an affair?
> 
> Do you have a support system in real life that can help you through these very difficult times?
> 
> Do you feel overwhelmed, with panic attacks or suicidal? If you do, please seek medical assistance ASAP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please tell us more,
> 
> 
> Bibi


partner not wife, I said we'd get married when I'd saved enough for the ceremony. But we're living apart - read the bit about my running the business and her refusing to shift and staying in the house I bought to rent out.

If she had an affair I wouldn't mind, i'm not sexually possessive, and find the idea exciting , as long as she remembers that I'm the one that's her full time partner.

No I do not have a support system - if you had read what I posted, I have been isolated keeping the business afloat, tax man off everyones back, paying child support/maintenance, and doing all the things that business operation requires to not go bankrupt or get arrested.


I called a "confidential" lifeline counselling service for help last night. 
This morning I put my car in for service Warrant of Fitness certificate, and was visiting my (rather uptight) parents, when the police showed up and arrested me "for my own good" after telling my parents that I am suicidal. Now they, and my partner, who also got a doorstep think that I'm a basket case loser (my parents have extremely low opinion of anyone with mental health issues, proven of not). Thanks police. Thanks "confidential" phone counselling service. Rest assured I'll never be making THAT mistake again.


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## Spotthedeaddog

EleGirl said:


> I'm sorry you have the need to be here. It sucks. I know.
> 
> What do you mean when you say that you are finally getting to come home? Does that mean that the two of you are getting back together?


I have spent the last 12 years apart because she refused to relocate when the business relocated (but with many visits, usually me coming to see them for brief periods or special events when I could get away). I could not continue my old position as I was very frequently falling asleep while driving.

The only time she want to move over is right after the house used for temporary staff (1-2 year contract) had a new parttime employee in it (nearby housing was a condition of the contract agreement). For 3 years while it wasn't occupied by staff she actively refused it.

*I* thought we could get together for some stuff so at least I could have some hugs, a bit of validation as a human being after struggling so hard for so long on my own, and to spend time catching up on our kids (daughter 17, son 10). 

that is why I bought the house for sale just down the block from theirs with the proceeds of the business sell up. I didn't want to try and cohabitate as that would be rather invasive!


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## Spotthedeaddog

aine said:


> Sorry you are in this place. if it is any consolation both men and women have MLCs. However, you may be specifically talking about the female perimenopause/menopause which for some couples can be extremely difficult. However, there is a lot of helpful (and no helpful) literature out there to help couples through this time if you so care to consider it.
> Men Surviving Menopause: You and the Woman You Love At Midlife by Paul Selinger. This book is written from a man's point of view which is useful as much is written from a women's viewpoint.
> 
> If you could speak to your wife about this it would help. She may be in denial or not wanting to face the reality of her moods, etc. It will be worth a try.


Your recommendation is very appreciated.

Not understanding why you think two genders being miserable is supposed to better than one.

Not talking menopause. Talking the midlife crisis.
Which is why you should do a bit of read up, because your last statement shows complete failure to comprehend the issue.

the _primary_ problem is that in her opinion, I am totally unworthy to be talked to. I am like a stinking dead dog. If I visit as I have for the last month, to try and set up some time to talk, she will phone up someone and talk to them until I leave. Txts are just completely ignored.
If I give advice from my time as a manager director on some _legal_ mistake in the employment contact she is handling I get abused.

I was allowed to visit for dinner on day a week, but she wouldn't talk to me, constantly had the children present, and I was expected to leave immediately after eating (or when I brought a movie (Guardians of the Galaxy) begrudgingly immediately after the movie.

Any attempt to discuss or talk about things is me being selfish or needy. any patience in the matter suits her just fine and will just be left. Any attempt to sort things out or arrange things is me being controlling for my own selfish reasons.

So read up on the "female mid-life crisis" and get back to be about how to do that communication thing because I would really love to know whether there's any hope and what I've done that deserves me getting this treatment.


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## EleGirl

Your story is confusing...

So you are not married to her? 

You say that you pay child support/maintenance. Do you have children with her or with someone else?

With you living away from her and you working 12-17 hours a day, 7 days a week, how much time did you even spend with her? It is almost impossible to keep a relationship together when the two of you basically have separate lives. Most relationships that are like this do not even last as long as yours did.

Is she having a mid life crisis? Who knows. She might just no longer feel bonded to you.


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## Bibi1031

I'm sorry if I didn't understand somethings in your first post. 

You are very upset and with good reason. 

Some posters suggested some good books to read. There are also online forums that specifically deal with midlife crisis issues. I was in one 10 years ago and it literally saved my life. 

I suggested medical attention because I needed both anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medication at the beginning of my XHs midlife crisis.

You need to see your doctor to make sure you are going to be ok in these extremely difficult times your partner is going through. Her MLC has a tremendous impact on your life.

Wow, sorry for the police thing your parents and partner witnessed.

What are you thinking of doing now that you know what your partner's problem is? Can you take legal action against her to protect your assets?

Bibi


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## EleGirl

Has she told you that she is no longer interested in a relationship with you?


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## Spotthedeaddog

EleGirl said:


> Your story is confusing...
> 
> So you are not married to her?
> 
> You say that you pay child support/maintenance. Do you have children with her or with someone else?
> 
> With you living away from her and you working 12-17 hours a day, 7 days a week, how much time did you even spend with her? It is almost impossible to keep a relationship together when the two of you basically have separate lives. Most relationships that are like this do not even last as long as yours did.
> 
> Is she having a mid life crisis? Who knows. She might just no longer feel bonded to you.


Not married to her, have two children with her.
Yes we "survived" the hell ride of 12 years. occasionally I'd push in a half day to visit them, or they would come over for a 24hrs and I'd get about 5 hours to spend with her and children.

That was the crazy bit. We got through that, and this was supposed to be the light at the end of tunnel/cheese.

I think that's the case (midlife / no bond) so what can be done to save the relationship. she put in the same number of hard yards, so it must be worth me to still try extra.


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## Spotthedeaddog

EleGirl said:


> Has she told you that she is no longer interested in a relationship with you?


No.
Normal she just won't take my calls/txts. Said she had her own interests.
Kids seem fine-ish (one is 17yr daughter...so hard to say "fine" there)

It's that things got much worse in about the last 3 weeks, although have been tough for a while (which is unsurprising)


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## Spotthedeaddog

Bibi1031 said:


> I'm sorry if I didn't understand somethings in your first post.
> 
> You are very upset and with good reason.
> 
> Some posters suggested some good books to read. There are also online forums that specifically deal with midlife crisis issues. I was in one 10 years ago and it literally saved my life.
> 
> I suggested medical attention because I needed both anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medication at the beginning of my XHs midlife crisis.
> 
> You need to see your doctor to make sure you are going to be ok in these extremely difficult times your partner is going through. Her MLC has a tremendous impact on your life.
> 
> Wow, sorry for the police thing your parents and partner witnessed.
> 
> What are you thinking of doing now that you know what your partner's problem is? Can you take legal action against her to protect your assets?
> 
> Bibi


We have already made sure legal assets both sides were carefully fenced off 3 years ago - easy when we not having a proper relationship and no real emotional support of each other.

the meds is impossible. not much use me taking them. wouldn't dream of even suggesting that she "should" be taking them. certainly not without mental or physical signs needing serious intervention. If there were male meds I might be needing them (? - how would I know?)


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## Bibi1031

spotthedeaddog said:


> .
> 
> If there were male meds I might be needing them (? - how would I know?)


Exactly! You need to set up an appointment with your doctor and talk to him about what bothers YOU and your reactions to the problems in YOUR life. The doctor WILL know if you need medication or not.

Forget about your partner, she doesn't want to be with you. You are already separated and she DOES NOT want to reconcile. Move on and find YOUR happiness. Try to establish a relationship with your kids. They will always be YOURS. She is not.

You can not control other people, only YOU.

Bibi


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## norajane

spotthedeaddog said:


> We have already made sure legal assets both sides were carefully fenced off 3 years ago - easy when we not having a proper relationship and no real emotional support of each other.


So you aren't married, haven't been living together for years, and you barely have a relationship. She's been treating you poorly all along - this behavior isn't new with a MLC!

I guess I don't know why you think you've been "together" as a couple except for the kids. You already sound divorced without ever having been married.

You might want to accept this relationship is over, if it actually was ever a committed relationship.


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## EleGirl

spotthedeaddog said:


> Not married to her, have two children with her.
> Yes we "survived" the hell ride of 12 years. occasionally I'd push in a half day to visit them, or they would come over for a 24hrs and I'd get about 5 hours to spend with her and children.
> 
> That was the crazy bit. We got through that, and this was supposed to be the light at the end of tunnel/cheese.
> 
> I think that's the case (midlife / no bond) so what can be done to save the relationship. she put in the same number of hard yards, so it must be worth me to still try extra.


Does she work outside the home? have career? 

Or are you her only financial support?

She did not move with you years ago. I can understand why. You said that you could not get married until you saved enough money. But you had no problem having children with her. You had no problem trying to tie her life up with yours for 12 years. But you would not get married. The needing enough money is an excuse. It cost almost nothing to get married.

I would not leave a community that was comfortable with, family nearby, etc, for a guy clearly had no intent to marry. I’m not saying this to be mean. I’m explaining what was probably her thought process.

She is not having a MLC. No bond is enough to her to not want a relationship with you. 

She went 12 years with you hardly in her life. Now you wanted to just move back and be in her life full time. Well, that does not work after all that time. She’s used to being on her own. The last thing she wants is for her life to change, for you to move in and start messing with things. She did fine without you for 12 years. She’s fine alone. She likes it her life just as it is. Again I’m not saying this to be mean. I’m explaining what was probably her thought process.

The question now is why is she acting the way she is towards you instead of just telling you to leave her alone? 

Does she depend on you financially.. so she needs your money but does not want you around?

Is she afraid to hurt your feelings more than she already is?

It sounds like she does not even think that she is in a relationship with you … like you are the only one who does. 

So I suggest that you start treating her like you are not in a relationship with her because you are not. Look at the link below for the 180. That is how you need to interact with her from now on. Have as little contact as possible with her. 

One of two things will happen. Once you stop chasing her and begging her, she will take note and start chasing you. If this happens, then you will have some leverage to get her to work on the relationship.

Or, the contact between the two of you will cease except for things dealing with the children. And you will know that she is done with the relationship and it’s time for you to move on.

There are plenty of women out there looking for a good man. You can now find one. You are now in a position to have a relationship because you can now actually live with a woman and spend time with her.

You also need see a lawyer to figure out what your legal right are with custody to your children, with any financial obligations, etc.

Do the 180 for 1 to 2 months. See how it goes. Keep posting here so that you can get emotional support through this time.


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## Spotthedeaddog

Bibi1031 said:


> Exactly! You need to set up an appointment with your doctor and talk to him about what bothers YOU and your reactions to the problems in YOUR life. The doctor WILL know if you need medication or not.
> 
> Forget about your partner, she doesn't want to be with you. You are already separated and she DOES NOT want to reconcile. Move on and find YOUR happiness. Try to establish a relationship with your kids. They will always be YOURS. She is not.
> 
> You can not control other people, only YOU.
> 
> Bibi




Give up the counselling Bibi, stick to your day job. I don't need assistance in *not* making it work, only in making it work.

Why do you think _she_ put up with over a decade of the hell life we went through?

What "happiness", I wasn't raised to be selfish or to seek my own happiness; those were anathema to my life values beaten into me as a kid. (I was raised in a budo household). To follow your happiness at detriment to ones duty is the only great crime and utterly unforgivable. It might be culturally ok for a woman of your culture to seek her happiness over other things but in mine it certainly is not acceptable for a man and father to do that.

And I'm not trying to control her, I seeking to understand her in order to communicate and find something to repair the relationship. If it was the perfect relationship I would not need to repair it, but I cannot repair it without comprehending the nature of the problem, and without some mechanism of communication.

And I will not use my children as tools or pawns to fabricate that common ground.


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## Bibi1031

spotthedeaddog said:


> Give up the counselling Bibi, stick to your day job. *I don't need assistance in *not* making it work, only in making it work.*
> 
> Well if she is going through a midlife crisis, nothing is going to work and that is why I said to take care of YOU. This is going to be a LONG haul.
> 
> Why do you think _she_ put up with over a decade of the hell life we went through?
> 
> What "happiness", I wasn't raised to be selfish or to seek my own happiness; those were anathema to my life values beaten into me as a kid. (I was raised in a budo household). *To follow your happiness at detriment to ones duty is the only great crime and utterly unforgivable.* It might be culturally ok for a woman of your culture to seek her happiness over other things but in mine it certainly is not acceptable for a man and father to do that.
> 
> *I admire your values, but her midlife crisis has nothing to do with YOU. She will be selfish and seek her own happiness. Her values are in the way of her happiness, they will be tossed aside.*
> 
> And I'm not trying to control her, I seeking to understand her in order to communicate and find something to repair the relationship. If it was the perfect relationship I would not need to repair it, *but I cannot repair it without comprehending the nature of the problem,* and without some mechanism of communication.
> 
> 
> 
> *Read about Midlife crisis. Join forums that deal exclusively with this inner and very personal turmoil (meaning YOUR partner)*
> 
> 
> 
> *And I will not use my children as tools or pawns to fabricate that common ground*.


*Your not fabricating or using your kids in any way. You are taking care of what YOU can. * 

I'm not counseling you, I giving you advice. You can take it or leave it. 

I wish you much luck in your endeavor,

Bibi


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## Spotthedeaddog

EleGirl said:


> Does she work outside the home? have career?
> 
> Or are you her only financial support?
> 
> She did not move with you years ago. I can understand why. You said that you could not get married until you saved enough money. But you had no problem having children with her. You had no problem trying to tie her life up with yours for 12 years. But you would not get married. The needing enough money is an excuse. It cost almost nothing to get married.
> 
> I would not leave a community that was comfortable with, family nearby, etc, for a guy clearly had no intent to marry. I’m not saying this to be mean. I’m explaining what was probably her thought process.
> 
> She is not having a MLC. No bond is enough to her to not want a relationship with you.
> 
> She went 12 years with you hardly in her life. Now you wanted to just move back and be in her life full time. Well, that does not work after all that time. She’s used to being on her own. The last thing she wants is for her life to change, for you to move in and start messing with things. She did fine without you for 12 years. She’s fine alone. She likes it her life just as it is. Again I’m not saying this to be mean. I’m explaining what was probably her thought process.
> 
> The question now is why is she acting the way she is towards you instead of just telling you to leave her alone?
> 
> Does she depend on you financially.. so she needs your money but does not want you around?
> 
> Is she afraid to hurt your feelings more than she already is?
> 
> It sounds like she does not even think that she is in a relationship with you … like you are the only one who does.
> 
> So I suggest that you start treating her like you are not in a relationship with her because you are not. Look at the link below for the 180. That is how you need to interact with her from now on. Have as little contact as possible with her.
> 
> One of two things will happen. Once you stop chasing her and begging her, she will take note and start chasing you. If this happens, then you will have some leverage to get her to work on the relationship.
> 
> Or, the contact between the two of you will cease except for things dealing with the children. And you will know that she is done with the relationship and it’s time for you to move on.
> 
> There are plenty of women out there looking for a good man. You can now find one. You are now in a position to have a relationship because you can now actually live with a woman and spend time with her.
> 
> You also need see a lawyer to figure out what your legal right are with custody to your children, with any financial obligations, etc.
> 
> Do the 180 for 1 to 2 months. See how it goes. Keep posting here so that you can get emotional support through this time.


Her financial support is through the government paying her for being a single parent, and a small part time job (the government insist the single parents increase the working hours as the youngest child gets older). IIRC the current rate is 27k a year, and she can live anywhere in the country to collect.
As the government pays that, the government taxes me what works out to be about 25% extra on my gross income. Which has been a major bugbear in getting capital from me for the company to grow properly.

If I stop contacting etc, and dont keep up the relationship, she will not chase me, she will take that as an all clear business as usual, and a sign that I'm not interested anymore. This has been previously established, acknowledge, and is confirmed by friends in common. Why do I pursue? good question. How did I keep her interested enough to visit in all those years, even for occasional visits? very good question.

Her "career" is in unpaid volunteer work, at the management level. She is extremely good at it - and I very much don't want to disrupt that - but also have to avoid becoming a minion in trying to establish compatible interests. This includes every other weekend or more, 4 hours admin 5 days/week (20hrs), and about 10 hours a week total in the evenings. More if she has to go out of town to visit one of her remote groups.

It cost more than we had to get married. seriously. and she was worth more to me than a soda can tab at the registry.
I do have an ex-wife - the biggest mistake we made was the wedding she came up with put us in moderately in debt at the start of the marriage (although a $5k tax bill that caught me by suprise two weeks before the marriage very much didn't help - from a company that I used to work for but went after shortly after I was made redundant - the wage clerk had declared all my expense reimbursements as gross income to the tax department, but only collected tax on my actual wage. the collapse of that company and her moving to the UK meant no data trail)

Appreciate the not being mean - but she had already done that once (moved to work) but pretty much retreated from being her outgoing independent self and refused to establish any friends apart from one woman in a club I was with, and a couple of my co-workers. Very difficult when that job required long hours and travel for me (computer field tech). for me it was take the company transfer or unemployment. although that transfer was before we were together, and when daughter was only 18 months. We lived together then, which is another reason I bought another house nearby rather than move in.
I was concerned that the second move (only 40 min drive in good conditions) might have been a challenge from that history. And also it incidentally moved her and our daughter closer to my parents, which neither of us was too keen about.
But at the end of the day, whether she or I liked it. I was a computer field tech, driving 4 - 10 hours a day, and falling asleep at the wheel. continuing that job wasn't an option. Quitting and paying the mortgage with no income was no option. Leaving only the move and business option. the bank doesn't take "family kudos" for rent payments unfortunately. And sometimes if Mum doesn't want to take that responsibility, Dad must.

I have several woman friends (not local) but I have no interest there. I have no core value of life that makes relationship of that nature of any interest, there is nothing about that kind of relationship that makes getting up in the morning or motivation to do anything. Such friendships are good but they are not life, it would be like trying to live a life by moving from ****tail party to ****tail party. Sure they can hold a certain dazzle for the moment, and be a lark, but that's all they are.

What I'm seeking is not a way to "make her work on the relationship". Went through that kind of thing with my ex-wife.
At the moment there is a communication difficulty for me to navigate (clearly the lack of communication from her suits her needs , while I must create more value in mine while reducing pressure and volume).
there are intimacy and expectation differences, much bigger issues but rely on communication.
there is her work and workload, which I must enhance, not create issues or insert myself (to mansolve them at her).
there are (always) financial concerns, her income. but that I can't fix.
And there are children, to encourage, which is made worse by communication.
So I'm looking for comprehension, understanding, and hopefully from there creating value and motivation for her - yeah I've been doing my own business for too long 

I did call a confidential counselling helpline and got in argument with guy on other end who said "it was all my fault, they're angry at you, and I need to communicate _more_ with her. the police made her phone me (don't ask, this is already long drama enough, I wasnt being charged with anything, and neither was she). so I used the note on the phones call log as a valid reason to establish a dialogue last night (after I was released by the police). Personally I think arresting people for calling a "confidential" counselling helpline sucks, but cops and honesty never go together.

Final comments. If any other woman "would do", then I don't deserve this one.

She was "sort of there" for 12 years, has done good job raising children in trying times, made good effort for me.
Doesn't she deserve at least some years from me to build the bridge when I'm free of that burden?


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## Another Planet

This is beyond my comprehension. So you want commitment but you don't want the burden of a committed relationship and you wonder why there is a problem with commitment? 
Man I think you are confused on many levels, it sounds like you need to do some work inwards and figure yourself out.


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## MattMatt

spotthedeaddog said:


> partner not wife, I said we'd get married when I'd saved enough for the ceremony. But we're living apart - read the bit about my running the business and her refusing to shift and staying in the house I bought to rent out.
> 
> If she had an affair I wouldn't mind, i'm not sexually possessive, and find the idea exciting , as long as she remembers that I'm the one that's her full time partner.
> 
> No I do not have a support system - if you had read what I posted, I have been isolated keeping the business afloat, tax man off everyones back, paying child support/maintenance, and doing all the things that business operation requires to not go bankrupt or get arrested.
> 
> 
> I called a "confidential" lifeline counselling service for help last night.
> This morning I put my car in for service Warrant of Fitness certificate, and was visiting my (rather uptight) parents, when the police showed up and arrested me "for my own good" after telling my parents that I am suicidal. Now they, and my partner, who also got a doorstep think that I'm a basket case loser (my parents have extremely low opinion of anyone with mental health issues, proven of not). Thanks police. Thanks "confidential" phone counselling service. Rest assured I'll never be making THAT mistake again.


Sue the confidential phone line?


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## Spotthedeaddog

Another Planet said:


> This is beyond my comprehension. So you want commitment but you don't want the burden of a committed relationship and you wonder why there is a problem with commitment?
> Man I think you are confused on many levels, it sounds like you need to do some work inwards and figure yourself out.


What are you talking about?

I'd love to be fully committed. Last time I check if anything I'm over committed.

But hard to be committed to a person who isn't interested in communicating, and certain a question of whether there is worth in doing so. But if I just give up, then I'm clearly not committed at all !


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## Another Planet

spotthedeaddog said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> I'd love to be fully committed. Last time I check if anything I'm over committed.
> 
> But hard to be committed to a person who isn't interested in communicating, and certain a question of whether there is worth in doing so. But if I just give up, then I'm clearly not committed at all !


Of course not, why would she? You care so little about her that you don't care if she is romantic with others. I wouldn't take you seriously either.
Hey newsflash!!! Be upfront on intent and follow up on that intent is key.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

MattMatt said:


> Sue the confidential phone line?


Love too. More a case of warn everybody, and just move on with my life.

The Police were quite apologetic about the whole thing but they say they have to respond to official complaints, and be seen to do so.
So chauffeured about by three cops who were really polite (me not so much) but must have better things to do with their time.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Another Planet said:


> Of course not, why would she? You care so little about her that you don't care if she is romantic with others. I wouldn't take you seriously either.
> Hey newsflash!!! Be upfront on intent and follow up on that intent is key.


What are you talking about?
Of course I care, I find the whole concept very exciting. I love it when she's having a good time or succeeding at something. Just as long as risk protection is observed.


----------



## Another Planet

spotthedeaddog said:


> What are you talking about?
> Of course I care, I find the whole concept very exciting. I love it when she's having a good time or succeeding at something. Just as long as risk protection is observed.


Wheres my 2x4?
You want this woman? Take her and make her yours and give her what she wants otherwise stop your *****ing. 
Another Newsflash!!! Maybe she isn't interested in what you have to offer ever think about that? Maybe that's why she isn't taking you seriously, but in my opinion it is because you are not taking her seriously.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Bibi said:


> Well if she is going through a midlife crisis, nothing is going to work and that is why I said to take care of YOU. This is going to be a LONG haul.
> 
> 
> I admire your values, but her midlife crisis has nothing to do with YOU. She will be selfish and seek her own happiness. Her values are in the way of her happiness, they will be tossed aside.
> 
> 
> Read about Midlife crisis. Join forums that deal exclusively with this inner and very personal turmoil (meaning YOUR partner)


I am joining a few forums etc but the difficulty I'm running in to is the topical sentence I put in as OP for the tread.
Much of the information is about how wonderful things are going to be for her (the poor mental health nurse that did my assessment yesterday, is 50 and female, so already knew the value of many of the "white light and fluffy bunny" "it's now a good time to reinvent yourself" advice available.) Little good practical information is out there, and far less for the woman's partner.

Indeed her MLC has nothing to do with me. But any relationship that is to exist does.
I can't man-fix her development for her but that doesn't mean don't be there and do what can be done in the relationship while it's going on, and walking away isn't an option - I have yet to see or hear of that working.

One of the things which has been identified is that our youngest 10 yr son can get a place to be at my place, as a place to go (and also get fed) when she is feeling stressed or feels he is being needy (and needs him out of her face, when dealing with something). Of course he has space here and is always welcome, but this is a step beyond to give him a place to be and call *his space*, when Mum needs her space. The older daughter (17) is more independent so has psyche to walk away when Mum's busy/stressed/tired.

Also identified that I am unable to offer material or financial help. Even though they do make life easier, it is frustrating and upsets the "rhythm" of her life/thinking/budget planning. If I get a few extra groceries, like when I pop around for lunch then the kids tend to get lazy when having food; notice that there is no judgement from me whether that even makes sense. They're not starving, and we could always set a meal night here if necessary. the important thing is not to disrupt her planning/having to readjust for my contribution when things already too busy. Likewise I will make sure my son (despite being a tween-age boy) doesn't gorge or food or junk if he does come visit - which means not treats. not even lying around. 
There is also the clear offer that if serious stuff breaks (eg her car for her voluntary career) that I won't help, but am available as a last resort. (it totally bummed me out when I had hoped to go cellphone shopping for her birthday to replace her dying old cell, and suddenly she had a new one. buying each other a cellphone when the old one dies for bday/xmas goes back to our first nokia's). Again if I helped, while it would make the problem go away, it just creates disorientation and a sense of lack of control over her own life (like an annoying co-worker who always finishes your contracts for you or adds things to clients orders without letting on to the client team - it's nice but looking stupid when the client says "thanks for the bottle of Whisky" might ingrate the techs with the customer, but will bug the heck out of your sales team )

Also I have managed to get an agreement to set up something fun, or at least one invite to any kids/public stuff that is going on in next three weeks (if anything). And for her to do a quick social visit to me (eg for coffee) at a time to be arranged by that 3 week period. three weeks isn't soon, so can be managed in - yet isn't so long away that it is trival. I also got future permission to ask for dates, should a suitably fun or interesting concert or show come up in the future. Again no pressure, not expecting invites, as she's going to be busy, but if she doesn't make them, they are committed to, so I can then say "hey it's ok, how about thurs next week - or I make dinner thursday fortnight since you're so busy (if nothing comes up)". shows I care, gives reason for her to fit a thought for me in her schedule. And possibility to be the gentleman about her workload if things don't work out. (sure it'll hurt like f..., but not like thats a new thing, and we'll live).

Two things she did independently contribute (eventually).
(1) I need to get more friends (unspoken, "men friends") so she feels like she's not the only target in my social circle, and she doesn't have to carry me emotionally.
(2) I really really get to get a f.... diary and write stuff down so I remember dates and what we have talked about in the past - as some of our recollections differ enormously.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Another Planet said:


> Wheres my 2x4?
> You want this woman? Take her and make her yours and give her what she wants otherwise stop your *****ing.
> Another Newsflash!!! Maybe she isn't interested in what you have to offer ever think about that? Maybe that's why she isn't taking you seriously, but in my opinion it is because you are not taking her seriously.


I guess you're trolling.
Actually you never get anywhere by giving _anyone_ what they want or what they need. Not just sales or relationships, everything.

Yes flashplanet. the customer is _never_ interested in what I have to offer. Not if they're expecting to pay a reasonable price for it. The real question is whether there is any value in my product, and whether the trade is valuable.

Pretty much life is understanding oneself and ones environment then resolving the two.
I have have to understand is she interested in what I have on offer?
If not I have to contemplate if I am comfortable supplying that - if I want quality, then I must be willing to offer something she finds valuable to her. Hard to do for someone in flux, who won't communicate. And I have to work out if I think it is worth the risk - I could do all the right things and the universe could still take us apart in different directions. I think she's worth that risk.
I could hardly be a man worthy of her if I wasn't willing to undertake the challenges and give it my all.

I remember her working and playing with animals. pets, strays, wild, all with patience and positiveness. How she attracts them to her must hold a key to how she deep down responds within a relationship, so I will use that successful approach to build a relationship. But I cannot bring things to the relationship, I cannot force the pet to like me, they can only develop what they need to come out in their own speed. Otherwise, at best I will get a broken or abused partner; at worst, deserve a sentence.

One thing that did become clear is that small tokens and romantic reminders all upset her mental focus. It seems to me like it's like people who interrupt when you're typing an email, or when they're "helping" it's like having your Mum bring your lunch into school classroom when you're 10+ yrs old. Or kind of both together, it's embarrassing, disruptive, and you'd rather be anywhere else.


----------



## ConanHub

Another Planet said:


> This is beyond my comprehension. So you want commitment but you don't want the burden of a committed relationship and you wonder why there is a problem with commitment?
> Man I think you are confused on many levels, it sounds like you need to do some work inwards and figure yourself out.


Absolutely agree with this post.

You have far greater problems in your own personal make up than she probably has.

You need to work on yourself and develop the ability to have a committed relationship.

You are clueless right now and I seriously doubt this forum will be of assistance to someone so utterly disconnected from a basic understanding of relationships.

I fully get why she has a hard time with you.

Does she think banging other men on the side is ok like you do?

Does she understand you have an open relationship?

There is nothing to build on here and I don't think you even know how to start. I'm not sure you even want to do what it takes to establish a committed relationship.

Some people shouldn't attempt relationships. Maybe you are one?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

P.S. Since you are obviously doing far worse than many of the posters here and actually came here asking advice, maybe you should lose the attitude and try listening.

Your the one with the major relationship problems here.

You remind me of a scrawny man at the gym eating Twinkies.

You ask the muscle bound guys advice and then deride them when they tell you to pick up some weights and stop eating crap.

If your so smart, fix it yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## aine

"She was "sort of there" for 12 years, has done good job raising children in trying times, made good effort for me.
Doesn't she deserve at least some years from me to build the bridge when I'm free of that burden?"

This statement says it all, you hooked up with her, didn't put a ring on it in all the years 'together', got her pregnant twice, was rarely around due to working on the business and now want to reestablish ties and from your first post are pissed off that you are handling the finances, supporting the family, etc. because now that you have time no-one has time for you. They survived all these years without you very much present in their lives, why would they want you now? 

I'm sorry but you don't get brownie points for any of that. A woman needs a man to be there (for the most part), there is absolutely 'no relationship' between you, you are merely a financier/banker and a sperm doner. That is the blunt truth.

You mention your culture being a factor, is your 'partner' of the same culture? You mentioned a Budo household which would ordinarily require personal sacrifice, discipline, etc. a very different perspective on life. However if your 'partner' does not subscribe to this view and is more of western culture then your sacrifice and discipline for the last so many years in doing what you thought was best is of little consequence to her. In her mind you probably emotionally abandoned her (a huge issue). Western women (and others brought up in the west) do not subscribe to such ideas, they require equality, care and consideration, you do not appear to have engaged much in any of these. Your ideas of duty, personal sacrifice and functionality do not make a relationship only a financial arrangement. Your 'partner' probably wants you in their lives for the kids sakes only, although I cannot imagine you have a close relationship with them either.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

ConanHub said:


> Absolutely agree with this post.
> 
> You have far greater problems in your own personal make up than she probably has.
> 
> You need to work on yourself and develop the ability to have a committed relationship.
> 
> You are clueless right now and I seriously doubt this forum will be of assistance to someone so utterly disconnected from a basic understanding of relationships.
> 
> I fully get why she has a hard time with you.
> 
> Does she think banging other men on the side is ok like you do?
> 
> Does she understand you have an open relationship?
> 
> There is nothing to build on here and I don't think you even know how to start. I'm not sure you even want to do what it takes to establish a committed relationship.
> 
> Some people shouldn't attempt relationships. Maybe you are one?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She didn't have interest before but always knew the option is there.
She always understood I am polyamorous, after all we did meet while I was married, before my ex-wife spent everything and then left.

Do you lot really think that because I don't think with my ****, that means I'm not valuing the relationship.
And that I don't buy into the whole "guilt" concept - or is that what you lot think a committed relationship is about? controlling each others sexual partners through guilt and shame? Why would I want to be in a relationship or committed relationship based on that.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

aine said:


> "She was "sort of there" for 12 years, has done good job raising children in trying times, made good effort for me.
> Doesn't she deserve at least some years from me to build the bridge when I'm free of that burden?"
> 
> This statement says it all, you hooked up with her, didn't put a ring on it in all the years 'together', got her pregnant twice, was rarely around due to working on the business and now want to reestablish ties and from your first post are pissed off that you are handling the finances, supporting the family, etc. because now that you have time no-one has time for you. They survived all these years without you very much present in their lives, why would they want you now?
> 
> I'm sorry but you don't get brownie points for any of that. A woman needs a man to be there (for the most part), there is absolutely 'no relationship' between you, you are merely a financier/banker and a sperm doner. That is the blunt truth.
> 
> You mention your culture being a factor, is your 'partner' of the same culture? You mentioned a Budo household which would ordinarily require personal sacrifice, discipline, etc. a very different perspective on life. However if your 'partner' does not subscribe to this view and is more of western culture then your sacrifice and discipline for the last so many years in doing what you thought was best is of little consequence to her. In her mind you probably emotionally abandoned her (a huge issue). Western women (and others brought up in the west) do not subscribe to such ideas, they require equality, care and consideration, you do not appear to have engaged much in any of these. Your ideas of duty, personal sacrifice and functionality do not make a relationship only a financial arrangement. Your 'partner' probably wants you in their lives for the kids sakes only, although I cannot imagine you have a close relationship with them either.



Whats "a ring" got to do with it? I don't own her. I value her independence and freedom too - I only want to be around because she wants me to be around and it's good for her. Why would I want anything else for her - or her for me.

I got a vasectomy after our first child. But it healed. Notice that the children are 7 years apart. Wasn't many opportunities to do that but it happened.

Oh, she's no domestic Western housefrau (and does come from a warrior based culture).
She certainly doesn't "need" me - except for the finance, which she doesn't enjoy doing, which the government supplies for her since she is allowed to just up and leave and take the children.
Just as I'm capable of having relationships without her, but not of the family nature, the family nature relationship that the two of us have had for a dozen years, even though it isn't the same as you lot and your "marriage relationships"

One thing that I have noticed over the last 18 months is her move towards contact only when I have a titular role to play (eg birthdays, christmas, fathers day), and these all tended to fall at times when she had her period or other reason for reduced or brief physical intimacy. However if one does research into female MLC... they recommend the partner distance themselves... so how appropriate that I wasn't around ! What the research doesn't say which launched my topic, is that there is very little information on how to improve things, which obviously one can't do while keeping a distance. Nor did any sources revealing hows and whys to feelings, which makes it difficult to feel and understand the MLC partner on an emotional and relationship level. Only on a mental and surface level (a bit like the chaste clergy giving sex advice  ).

********************************************************
But you all seem tied up in rings and control and marriage - Did you not read the subject line for this Thread / discussion.

This is about a Woman in a stable if difficult (non-marriage) relationship, that when the relationship suddenly becomes easier and possibilities occur on the horizon, that she enters into classic MLC behaviours - and _more_importantly_ where is the information available for men to navigate through this stage in their relationship.

What my relationship is isn't the big deal, it is only a case study.
What is the advice for making it work, and where is similar information in other places.
********************************************************

And yes, as a partner in the relationship it is exceeding painful for a someone that I trust and rely on to refuse to validate me as worth talking to. Made more painful, as my best bud go-to person, is the one doing the hurting.

which it turns out is one of the key motivators - that often for emotional support men (partners of the MLC person) come to rely more and more, and more narrowly, on the MLC person for that validation (often though culture, tradition, and "semi-romantic" personal rituals). thus creating one of the major "double-collisions" of the female MLC. (I suspect a similar effect comes for the male MLC partner, who instead of validation, emotional, and social support, has sort validation, security, and social rank via the relationship)


----------



## Another Planet

You call me a troll smh.


----------



## EleGirl

spotthedeaddog said:


> which it turns out is one of the key motivators - that often for emotional support men (partners of the MLC person) come to rely more and more, and more narrowly, on the MLC person for that validation (often though culture, tradition, and "semi-romantic" personal rituals). thus creating one of the major "double-collisions" of the female MLC. (I suspect a similar effect comes for the male MLC partner, who instead of validation, emotional, and social support, has sort validation, security, and social rank via the relationship)


My take on it is that you are looking for any reason at all to explain away they way she is interacting with you. So MLC will do. 

I'm not so sure that you do not want to own her, or that you do not see her as a possession. 

Her actions are of someone who wants little to nothing do with you. But you will not accept that this is how she feels and what she wants. Instead you are trying to find a way to force what you want upon her. What is a strong way to try to control (own) another person. 

By you refusing to accept that she wants little to do with you, you are actually showing a huge amount of disrespect for her. Instead you continue to hound her for something that she does not want.

My suggestion is that you get into counseling. You could use some help in working through this.


----------



## aine

spotthedeaddog said:


> Whats "a ring" got to do with it? I don't own her. I value her independence and freedom too - I only want to be around because she wants me to be around and it's good for her. Why would I want anything else for her - or her for me.
> A ring ordinarily indicates commitment, in for the long haul, but from what you said you were not being open to her being with other men and you being polyamourous and all. If that is the case why do you now want to have an apparent committed relationship? She obviously does not and is trying to let you know indirectly, she is happy the way things are and doesn't need you being more involved in your life that you were before. What makes you think you have any right to be? Just because you gave her two kids?
> I got a vasectomy after our first child. But it healed. Notice that the children are 7 years apart. Wasn't many opportunities to do that but it happened. So you were f*** buddies, so what, there is nothing in this arrangement to suggest that you should be anything more?
> 
> Oh, she's no domestic Western housefrau. My point is not about domesiticity but CULTURE. Your views on things sound very much coloured by your upbringing in a Budo household where values may not quite be the same. Emphasis usually is on honor, duty, discipline, rather than romance, relationship, love, etc.
> 
> She certainly doesn't "need" me - except for the finance, which she doesn't enjoy which the government supplies for her since she is allowed to just up and leave and take the children. A woman will only have a man in her life is he fulfills some need, whether it is emotional, physical, financial. So you say in your own words she doesn't seem to need you on any level, so why waste your time, look for someone who does. Is the mother of your children western?
> Just as I'm capable of having relationships without her, but not of the family nature, the family nature relationship that the two of us have had for a dozen years, even though it isn't the same as you lot and your "marriage relationships" As I suspected, your family relationship is not of the usual kind to be found in your part of the world. I don't care what your Budo value system is but human beings were created to be in loving relationships which are fulfilling. Your derogatory last comment about "you lot" makes me wonder WTF would you bother coming on a forum like this looking for advice, it seems you are way more superior to any of us lot. Finally if your 'partner' is western or doesn't follow your value system, she doesn't care about your view of relationships. Relationships are not switched on and off. As far as she is concerned you abandoned her, you lived your life separately, she wants that to continue indefinitely. Go and find someone else and let her be.
> 
> ********************************************************
> But you all seem tied up in rings and control and marriage - Did you not read the subject line for this Thread / discussion. They are simply symbols of commitment, nothing to do with control
> 
> This is about a Woman in a stable if difficult (non-marriage) relationship,There was nothing stable about this relationship, you weren't around for the most part and don't seem to understand it was merely a 'relationship' albeit part time or in your head that when the relationship suddenly becomes easier and possibilities occur on the horizon, that she enters into classic MLC behaviours Because she doesn't want the status quo to change, you haven't been around, but simply want to waltz back into her life on a more full time basis, what is she, a booty call, no self respecting woman would put up with that s*** and I don't care what culture she comes from except it's during the middle ages! - and _more_importantly_ where is the information available for men to navigate through this stage in their relationship I tried to give you a reference earlier on which would be useful, but your response was sarcastic and because I am good natured and don't want to judge another one is The Four Seasons of Marriage by Dr Chapman
> 
> What my relationship is isn't the big deal, it is only a case study. I am sure she would be chuffed to hear your relationship is something in a laboratory, ?
> What is the advice for making it worth, and where is similar information in other places.
> ********************************************************
> 
> And yes, as a partner in the relationship it is exceeding painful for a someone that I trust and rely on to refuse to validate me as worth talking to. Made more painful, as my best bud go-to person, is the one doing the hurting. You should talk with her? have you tried to? have you asked your 17 yr old what might be the problem?
> 
> which it turns out is one of the key motivators - that often for emotional support men (partners of the MLC person) come to rely more and more, and more narrowly, on the MLC person for that validation (often though culture, tradition, and "semi-romantic" personal rituals sounds like you are writing an academic paper on ..........Sounds like you should get yourself a life outside of the woman, make friends, take up a hobby, etc. BTW why should she, you were not there to give her emotional support, women need it too, way more than me. This is all about your, God no wonder she is treating you badly.). thus creating one of the major "double-collisions" of the female MLC. (I suspect a similar effect comes for the male MLC partner, who instead of validation, emotional, and social support, has sort validation, security, and social rank via the relationship)


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Oh and another wee note to all those people criticising my relationship.......

Why when I signed up for this site did I get a spam email from this site for "discrete married dating".

hmph. at least I don't lie.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

aine said:


>


Oh I did have something "outside" the relationship. A business that was to provide for the future. Sadly that and work commitments left little room for other things except martial arts and medieval re-enactment. Something my partner and I have in common. Although neither of us doing medieval reenactment anymore. And like my mother, my partner gave up martial arts when she was pregnant.

ie "you lot", the others who are clearly not like me yet expect that the issues around the relationship obey their rules...when we're not talking about my life but how to deal with a female partner IN the MLC, from her partners point of view, with regards to actually keeping it together until the MLC passes.

Yet everything I hear here points more and more that your Western Women only view a partner as a object to be used !!! What happens when she has got her full? Or she wants a different flavour?

My partner is part-Maori and like me grew up on a rural farm, and has strong spiritual curiosity. I also do many pagan and magical practices, time permitting.

When we had enough equity in the business, we got the bank to release the mortgage security on the house I bought that she was living in and she bought my interest out via a property separation agreement, which was the only way to ensure full legal and financial separation was assured - so if the business faltered she would not lose the house. On top of that maturation event for her (of becoming an independent property owner for the first time) the road between the towns we were located in was damaged for almost a year, and a vexious tenant created great damage to one of the business properties requiring massive work on me and my staff to repair. Meaning that we had almost no contact for a year. when the road re-opened, the repaired house sold, we re-established contact. But about 3 months later she started growing distant. However I was rather busy as I had to dismiss my staff member for several serious breeches in conduction, two of which had me within a couple of seconds of death. that was two years ago.

She has not taken any other partners in that whole time (12 years).

But if your women folk only take men who have use (rather than love or respect) what responsibility do they have to their menfolk when they are damaged or used up. Are they just discarded? Are there some kind of quota that he must provide to remain valid in the relationship.

Yes, few people appreciate the Budo orientated values of Family (vs family), but since that is my upbringing and a core of what I am, I have no choice beyond rejection of myself - which carries its own price.

Which brings me back to what to do for a partner to help with that female MLC.

And yes, I am discussing the matter with real counselors too. But they have office hours and earliest appointments for the competent are often more than a week away (again, that worth getting is seldom instant)


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Another Planet said:


> You call me a troll smh.


Yes - if you act like a troll then you be pointed out as acting as a troll acts.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

> Because she doesn't want the status quo to change, you haven't been around, but simply want to waltz back into her life on a more full time basis, what is she, a booty call, no self respecting woman would put up with that s*** and I don't care what culture she comes from except it's during the middle ages!


Before the road closed for 12 months, a few years ago, she was booty calling me. That was during the weekday when kids were at school/daycare. Couple times a week. but she couldn't stay obviously because she works for wage parttime in afternoon. Not.Instigated.By.Me. With the emergency repairs to the businesses house, and the road closure, she had other priorities - but contact was still maintained by phone and text.


----------



## EleGirl

spotthedeaddog said:


> But if your women folk only take men who have use (rather than love or respect) what responsibility do they have to their menfolk when they are damaged or used up. Are they just discarded? Are there some kind of quota that he must provide to remain valid in the relationship.


Are you aware that a good number of the people who are posting to you this site are men? It’s not ‘you women folk’ here. It’s men and women.
Not one person here, not even female posters, have advocated women using men. That’s your nonsense now that you are throwing out in anger.


spotthedeaddog said:


> Yes, few people appreciate the Budo orientated values of Family (vs family), but since that is my upbringing and a core of what I am, I have no choice beyond rejection of myself - which carries its own price.
> 
> Which brings me back to what to do for a partner to help with that female MLC.
> 
> And yes, I am discussing the matter with real counselors too. But they have office hours and earliest appointments for the competent are often more than a week away (again, that worth getting is seldom instant)


You apparently want people to tell you what to hear. So if you know what you want to hear, you already have your own answers.


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## Spotthedeaddog

Who do most of your Western Culture men speak to regarding the emotional and details of their relationships, when their partner is not available (or is connected to the problem - eg it would create concern, tension or mistrust in the relationship).

It was said here that women get these needs from their partner. As I put in the topic of the thread, this is about the men/partners. So who do the men folk go to. I am currently discussing this with 2 other menfolk friends of mine.

As to accusations that I'm selfish and all about me. Read the first comments, yes I have to first responsible to myself. I can also only control what I do, so everything pertains to what choices and actions I take (or should not take). And thirdly..... if I'm not about me, then who is going to look out for me and my interests??? And yes, I really do want some replies on that last one - especially from any western women. especially any from a female MLC point of view - If I am selfish about my needs ... then what does that make her towards her partner? What responsibilities (yes, duty) does your culture put on her that she must return to her partner, if I would be expect to look after her interests ahead of my own????


----------



## Satya

spotthedeaddog said:


> I seeking to understand her in order to communicate and find something to repair the relationship. If it was the perfect relationship I would not need to repair it, but I cannot repair it without comprehending the nature of the problem, and without some mechanism of communication.


Although you posted this a while ago, it still is relevant to quote because you seem to be no closer to understanding what you desire to, so, without actually knowing your girlfriend, (but having read this far), I'm going to take a wild stab. 

You and your girlfriend both made mistakes. You thought she was going to accept your lifestyle and your character (which is a whirlwind of inflexibility as demonstrated by your posts) and she thought that she could reap commitment from you if she ticked off all your boxes. In other words, she like so many other naive women, hoped you'd change. By 1.) spending impossibly little time to properly bond with her (which to a woman equates to neglect), 2.) failing to commit to her solely (read by many women to = "marriage", but not always... You are on a marriage forum) after she invested in your genetic legacy by producing offspring, and 3.) both 1 and 2 above going on for years, you inadvertently created as if by recipe, a hardened heart woman. 

She is resentful of your sudden interest in providing the very presence and enthusiasm she was lacking for years, rather than jumping up and down about it as you hope. That's because she hung around waiting for you to "get it" sooner, and gave up hope in the process. Now her resentment wants you to fail so maybe you can feel the same frustration she did. 

She's no saint, though. Her mistake was thinking you could provide the future she wanted. I think you both were incompatible, plain and simple. My opinion is that no woman that desired true 100% commitment would involve herself in a polyamorous relationship. Younger, less experienced women have not yet developed the ability or filter out men that will not meet their needs.

As I wrote, it's a wild stab and one of many possible scenarios with the purpose of increasing understanding. The method of communication on your part should be 1.) action and 2.) frequent, open and honest communication, in that order. She won't believe your words until you gain her confidence with demonstrated, repeated, consistent actions. It will take patience and perseverance, and there's a possibility your efforts will be in vain if she's too far gone. When a woman is truly done, she is done and rarely comes back from the abyss.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

EleGirl said:


> Are you aware that a good number of the people who are posting to you this site are men? It’s not ‘you women folk’ here. It’s men and women.
> Not one person here, not even female posters, have advocated women using men. That’s your nonsense now that you are throwing out in anger.


Ok so some are men. so what.
I was referring to the women folk taking that approach to their relationship, and those effeminate men who are emasculated to behave as a womans' resource pig (undeliberately, as opposed to deliberately).

Incorrect. I'm am not saying that in anger. Several posts up further the writer writes that in Western cultural women expect emotional, finance, etc from their men/husbands.
The women expect these things to be delivered to them .... or what? does she sue? withhold contractual contributions that she perceives? Where are these obligations stated so a man can know what he's expected to provide, to what limit, for how long, and what he is entitled to in return.





> You apparently want people to tell you what to hear. So if you know what you want to hear, you already have your own answers.


No.
I expect people not to criticise my relationship.
I expect people not to go on about me not having a relationship or that having a certain piece of jewelry makes a difference.
I expect people to get over the fact that [many] other people have relationships that are willingly different to what the perceive as the norm.
I expect people to stick to the topic, or supply material related to the topic : why isn't the information available to men? what information should be available to a man? (apart from never buy into the idea that you have a unwritten contractual responsibility to provide resources for no return, for unlimited period, at your partners whim, or else her "love" will be withheld, and the man will be expected to accept all blame and responsibility for any results - including never buy into the idea that it is manly to accept blame for your partners issues or that it is your responsibility to cover up for them (as apparently it's not her responsibility to cover up for his - unless it is to her personal benefit).

Information and answers that are topical are wanted - I would prefer not to have to explain more about *my* relationship.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Satya said:


> Although you posted this a while ago, it still is relevant to quote because you seem to be no closer to understanding what you desire to, so, without actually knowing your girlfriend, (but having read this far), I'm going to take a wild stab.
> 
> You and your girlfriend both made mistakes. You thought she was going to accept your lifestyle and your character (which is a whirlwind of inflexibility as demonstrated by your posts) and she thought that she could reap commitment from you if she ticked off all your boxes. In other words, she like so many other naive women, hoped you'd change. By 1.) spending impossibly little time to properly bond with her (which to a woman equates to neglect), 2.) failing to commit to her solely (read by many women to = "marriage", but not always... You are on a marriage forum) after she invested in your genetic legacy by producing offspring, and 3.) both 1 and 2 above going on for years, you inadvertently created as if by recipe, a hardened heart woman.
> 
> She is resentful of your sudden interest in providing the very presence and enthusiasm she was lacking for years, rather than jumping up and down about it as you hope. That's because she hung around waiting for you to "get it" sooner, and gave up hope in the process. Now her resentment wants you to fail so maybe you can feel the same frustration she did.
> 
> She's no saint, though. Her mistake was thinking you could provide the future she wanted. I think you both were incompatible, plain and simple. My opinion is that no woman that desired true 100% commitment would involve herself in a polyamorous relationship. Younger, less experienced women have not yet developed the ability or filter out men that will not meet their needs.
> 
> As I wrote, it's a wild stab and one of many possible scenarios with the purpose of increasing understanding. The method of communication on your part should be 1.) action and 2.) frequent, open and honest communication, in that order. She won't believe your words until you gain her confidence with demonstrated, repeated, consistent actions. It will take patience and perseverance, and there's a possibility your efforts will be in vain if she's too far gone. When a woman is truly done, she is done and rarely comes back from the abyss.



She was twenty-nine when we met. I was twenty-sever.
She did not "invest in my genetic material" deliberately (long term wise, vs selection criteria; and I add that the latter is proving an excellent choice - if somewhat strong willed....), and she expect to rear the child alone, but was quite insistent that she did want all of me. (her words - and I was not actively poly for the majority our time together, until I needed help 10 years ago, when she turned me from her door and refused contact with me (her income from government requires her not to have a "real relationship" with me - thanks government.) after two years and only contact for childrens birthdays in that time I had emotional and sexual support from someone else. But bridges were mended somewhat further down the lane. 

But rehashing this stuff is real not useful.
It yesterdays relationship crap, it's the stuff _both_ of us want to kick to the hell days of the past.

What I'm hoping is for _going_ forward stuff, now there's time and a little money and she's free of worrying about babies and I no longer have to pay financial-atlas (titan) for both of us to the last critical penny. Rehashing old pain with my lady is not going to make either of us enjoy each others company (it has been semi-scientifically tested, if you doubt my veracity)

Can we do the going forward stuff instead please.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Another point I just considered. It is possible that me "helping out with groceries and entertaining kids 'while she is busy' is 'being supportive' (for me) but might be a territorial issue for her (eg I'm trying to buy her kids dedication away from her (eg like a coworker hijacking claim for a project you worked on)).

Oh many of the suggestions I've been making in the last 20 hours, is because since the police made her call me, I had an positive and reasonable excuse to go talk to her (ie "you called me", "police forced me", "very sorry about that, I thought the service was confidential!!"), without appearing like I was being the pushy one (or without my friend initiating it). This let me consult with the decision makers directly, and let me take a back role in the conversation asking for her input, rather than having to constantly be the initiator. (Seriously how can women claim to be good communicators and also that "fine" is good communication !!)

eventually got good body language, and left with mutual friendly hugs. This isn't even the first bridge or hurdle, but is huge improvement.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Re: women using men then tossing them aside when they're tired of them.

Just read a modern western culture meme on FB.
"more women need to start searching for guys who have goals and ambition because ten years later swag isn't goal to pay your bills"


so umm. why aren't the women paying their own way or having goals and ambitions of their own, why are they expecting to have men to pay those bills for them? And what of those men who don't or aren't financially motivated, or whose companies or investments succumb to investment risks.

Thus why is it ok for counselors and MLC to say; sure, just discard the empties in the trash.... they're not your responsibility.... remember what you contracted up for.


----------



## aine

spotthedeaddog said:


> Re: women using men then tossing them aside when they're tired of them.
> 
> Just read a modern western culture meme on FB.
> "more women need to start searching for guys who have goals and ambition because ten years later swag isn't goal to pay your bills"
> 
> Yeah and all great wisdom comes from FB ....not
> 
> 
> so umm. why aren't the women paying their own way or having goals and ambitions of their own, why are they expecting to have men to pay those bills for them? And what of those men who don't or aren't financially motivated, or whose companies or investments succumb to investment risks. You are making a gross generalisation, many women pay their way, have babies, do all the housework, hold down a full time job to boot, sometimes even earn more money than their other half too. In some marriages/relationships an mutual agreement is made that the birth giving partner stays home to raise the kids, some can afford to some can not. Yes some men lose it all and if they have invested in their marriage or other half, then hopefully they will have a partner who will still be there in spite of the ups and downs.
> 
> Thus why is it ok for counselors and MLC to say; sure, just discard the empties in the trash.... they're not your responsibility.... remember what you contracted up for.


Do not know where you are coming up with this stuff. I doubt it that any counsellor will say that one throws away a person. I think you personally have some real issues about yourself, how you interact with your partner, family, etc. You treat your 'relationship' as something that is functional. I doubt very much that is your culture, it is more likely to be you. You should have a look at His Needs Her Needs by Dr Harley which outlines the needs of both the man and woman in a relationship. If you read the book you may begin to understand what is going on in your own relationship/arrangement or whatever you choose to call it. The brief list is

Men's Needs
1. Sexual Fulfilment 
2. Recreational Companionship 
3. An Attractive Spouse 
4. Domestic Support 
5. Admiration

Women's Needs
1. Affection 
2. Conversation 
3. Honesty and Openness 
4. Financial Commitment
5. Family committment


----------



## Satya

spotthedeaddog said:


> But rehashing this stuff is real not useful.





spotthedeaddog said:


> Can we do the going forward stuff instead please.


Have you ever heard the quote (and I'm paraphrasing), "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." ? 

I wish you well in finding your answers.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Satya said:


> Have you ever heard the quote (and I'm paraphrasing), "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." ?
> 
> I wish you well in finding your answers.


Yes, and learning from it means not reliving it. How can we deal with today and tomorrows issues, if we're still fighting yesterdays problems.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

aine said:


> Do not know where you are coming up with this stuff. I doubt it that any counsellor will say that one throws away a person. I think you personally have some real issues about yourself, how you interact with your partner, family, etc. You treat your 'relationship' as something that is functional. I doubt very much that is your culture, it is more likely to be you. You should have a look at His Needs Her Needs by Dr Harley which outlines the needs of both the man and woman in a relationship. If you read the book you may begin to understand what is going on in your own relationship/arrangement or whatever you choose to call it. The brief list is
> 
> Men's Needs
> 1. Sexual Fulfilment
> 2. Recreational Companionship
> 3. An Attractive Spouse
> 4. Domestic Support
> 5. Admiration
> 
> Women's Needs
> 1. Affection
> 2. Conversation
> 3. Honesty and Openness
> 4. Financial Commitment
> 5. Family committment


Yes I read it when Amway brought it out in there Book of the Month program, 20 years ago.
Very limited christian/US interpretation of relationships.

Found the whole "contract" trade of services rather offensive
So I'm giving as much 
1 Affection, 
2 Conversation, 
3 Honesty and Openness, 
4 Financial commitment 
5 Family commitment
as possible.

And being denied 
1. Sexual Fulfilment 
2. Recreational Companionship 
4. Domestic Support 
5. Admiration

So what are the full contractual requirements when the man is providing his 5, given her MLC.

And why do the women get the free ride on financial responsibility?


----------



## aine

I'm sorry, you seem to know it all, it would be interesting to ask your 'partner' what she thinks of the 'contractual services' you provide. Her take on the matter is probably significantly different from yours and it is her take that matters, otherwise you wouldn't be in this position.
I believe you just want to hear certain answers, you believe you are perfect, your partner is wrong for not seeing your perfection, good luck with that. You cannot flog a dead horse, it goes nowhere.

In your case it is time to have some serious self reflection.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

aine said:


> I'm sorry, you seem to know it all, it would be interesting to ask your 'partner' what she thinks of the 'contractual services' you provide. Her take on the matter is probably significantly different from yours and it is her take that matters, otherwise you wouldn't be in this position.
> I believe you just want to hear certain answers, you believe you are perfect, your partner is wrong for not seeing your perfection, good luck with that. You cannot flog a dead horse, it goes nowhere.
> 
> In your case it is time to have some serious self reflection.


I certainly don't "know it all" - never claimed to . But apparently I know a _whole_ bunch more than others, especially about me.

And yeah, that's what the MLC partner gets to always hear - it's the MLC person's take that matters.


But hey - you know - thanks - most of my life is struggle and f...ing failure. you think I _wanted_ to be stuck on a farm , that I wanted the rest of the family to sit on all my capital and block renting it, that I wanted them to say no we dont want to contribute to the household? You think I wanted to work 12 hours, 6+ days a week just to pay off family debts, created by shifting them to a town they wanted. That I wanted my boss at the time to be a control freak. that I wanted to suffer physical injury that left me able unable to walk or stand long periods? that I wanted to be stuck in a flat, suffering mental exhaustion and being at the hands of abusive flatmates because my family wouldn't let me return to MY house, that I wanted to have to borrow $750,000 to float a business because I didnt have a job or degree, that I wanted the tax department to try and financially ruin me not once but three times (and fought them off. alone.), that I wanted to not finish my first degree because my first wife who worked at a bank spent everything "we" had plus some then f..ed off when everything was gone had got enough debt that I had to work part time so the HoD who promised that wouldn't change my eligibility for the exams but later recanted at exam time, or that then then changed the whole course structure so I couldn't even finish the three papers that I needed to complete, and the $7000 I didn't have to get the papers transfer to the new structure. Or that my computer job involved fixing servers, that had to be done after hours and in weekends. And I couldn't get a loan at that stage to upskill because I had zero security thanks to the ex-wife. and on and fing on.

Yeah so I'm a unlovable blody f. up.
Yeah managing director for 6 years, but now either have skillsets which are irrelevant or scare the crap out of recruiters (I was got turned down a parttime rural sales job - 8 years solo running farm "over qualified")

My partner is wrong - because she has never _communicated_ a problem , and still won't.

But what useful things have you f..ups contributed to THE THREAD.

Yeah so I'm a f..up, yeah I hate the f...ing lot of you all. why the f. should I try or be social, or f..ijng kiss your asses. WTF have you ever done or planned to do for me. Judging from my _ex-_partner. NOTHING. (except take take take)

but lets take the advice of the mental crisis helpline person this morning... "it's a psychological thing you'll just have to push though it" ...cause yeah we all know that works well for depression and other stuff like what I've faced in my life.


-------------
Oh and for your information.
My ex-wife loved the book - she was totally into trading. bank, taurus, figures. hence I had to buy anything I desired.

My (ex-)partner - hated the book, absolutely refused to have anything to do with such "favour counting" or "contracts". FYI
------
Now if you've _finished_ attacking my relationship.... and if you're finished attacking ME..... can you deal with the f...ing thread topic.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Oh and just to follow up on that His Needs Her Needs trading thing.

who does the husband go to if there's a issue he needs to communicate, where is his openness and honesty going to come from?

female MLC - related wise... not from her that's for sure. See he has "no entitlement" to honesty or communication, only to financial loss - and a ***** who complains "he doesn't help out around the house" (so much for item for on his contracted rights...) And when he tries to provide Affection to the female MLC, what of the 1 - 5 does he get in return? (is "f... off" number 6 on his entitlement list?)

Just how many women actually measure up on the Recreational Commitment - especially at female MLC time? Lets go golfing or fishing dear....yeah right, like that will happen. But he listens to her talk at him. He doesn't get his momentary (and easily recharged supply for her) of sexual fulfillment (which I assure you in my case is well enjoyed by her, and seldom for me "it's too much hard work") - even through she gets her fully contracted permanent and hard earned sparse Financial Commitment.

I'm think I need to hire a better union negotiator, especially on the details of the exit clauses.


----------



## aine

spotthedeaddog said:


> I certainly don't "know it all" - never claimed to . But apparently I know a _whole_ bunch more than others, especially about me.
> 
> And yeah, that's what the MLC partner gets to always hear - it's the MLC person's take that matters.
> 
> 
> But hey - you know - thanks - most of my life is struggle and f...ing failure. you think I _wanted_ to be stuck on a farm , that I wanted the rest of the family to sit on all my capital and block renting it, that I wanted them to say no we dont want to contribute to the household? You think I wanted to work 12 hours, 6+ days a week just to pay off family debts, created by shifting them to a town they wanted. That I wanted my boss at the time to be a control freak. that I wanted to suffer physical injury that left me able unable to walk or stand long periods? that I wanted to be stuck in a flat, suffering mental exhaustion and being at the hands of abusive flatmates because my family wouldn't let me return to MY house, that I wanted to have to borrow $750,000 to float a business because I didnt have a job or degree, that I wanted the tax department to try and financially ruin me not once but three times (and fought them off. alone.), that I wanted to not finish my first degree because my first wife who worked at a bank spent everything "we" had plus some then f..ed off when everything was gone had got enough debt that I had to work part time so the HoD who promised that wouldn't change my eligibility for the exams but later recanted at exam time, or that then then changed the whole course structure so I couldn't even finish the three papers that I needed to complete, and the $7000 I didn't have to get the papers transfer to the new structure. Or that my computer job involved fixing servers, that had to be done after hours and in weekends. And I couldn't get a loan at that stage to upskill because I had zero security thanks to the ex-wife. and on and fing on.
> 
> Yeah so I'm a unlovable blody f. up.
> Yeah managing director for 6 years, but now either have skillsets which are irrelevant or scare the crap out of recruiters (I was got turned down a parttime rural sales job - 8 years solo running farm "over qualified")
> 
> My partner is wrong - because she has never _communicated_ a problem , and still won't.
> 
> But what useful things have you f..ups contributed to THE THREAD.
> 
> Yeah so I'm a f..up, yeah I hate the f...ing lot of you all. why the f. should I try or be social, or f..ijng kiss your asses. WTF have you ever done or planned to do for me. Judging from my _ex-_partner. NOTHING. (except take take take)
> 
> but lets take the advice of the mental crisis helpline person this morning... "it's a psychological thing you'll just have to push though it" ...cause yeah we all know that works well for depression and other stuff like what I've faced in my life.
> 
> 
> -------------
> Oh and for your information.
> My ex-wife loved the book - she was totally into trading. bank, taurus, figures. hence I had to buy anything I desired.
> 
> My (ex-)partner - hated the book, absolutely refused to have anything to do with such "favour counting" or "contracts". FYI
> ------
> Now if you've _finished_ attacking my relationship.... and if you're finished attacking ME..... can you deal with the f...ing thread topic.



OMG, Stdg, many people won't even bother responding to your diatribe, wow, but I will because I know inside all the ranting and raving and expletives you are hurting very badly. Go to a bloody doctor first of all and get yourself some Xanax or whatever they prescribe then get some good solid counselling or go to church group ( I know you are not Christian) as they may have those freely available.

So the whole world is out to get you, this is no longer about your 'partner' and your relationship. It is now about , your family, your siblings, your ex wife, your boss, the tax department, the bank. 

Life can be shyte for all of us, we decide whether to have a pity party or pull our trousers up and get on with it. You need serious counselling, or a good friend to let it all out and do some venting.

I guess you thought you would find that in your 'partner' but when you do not invest emotionally in another person do not expect them to be there for you when you need them, that is the whole crux of life. As the saying goes some of us prop our ladder against the wall and start climbing only to find it was against the wrong wall when we get to the top of it. It happens.

I do feel sorry for you I do, but sometimes a little humility is needed, to seek help, listen to what others say (it may be useful), you sound very resentful and prideful. No-one can bring you to a place where you are open to changing how you see things or a place of change. You want others to change, that is not going to happen, you either change or break. 

AND no-one is attacking you. My advice, forget about your 'partner' do something about yourself to become a better man, someone who is happy in his own skin, you should never find your happiness in another person.


----------



## aine

spotthedeaddog said:


> Oh and just to follow up on that His Needs Her Needs trading thing.
> 
> who does the husband go to if there's a issue he needs to communicate, where is his openness and honesty going to come from?
> 
> female MLC - related wise... not from her that's for sure. See he has "no entitlement" to honesty or communication, only to financial loss - and a ***** who complains "he doesn't help out around the house" (so much for item for on his contracted rights...) And when he tries to provide Affection to the female MLC, what of the 1 - 5 does he get in return? (is "f... off" number 6 on his entitlement list?)
> 
> Just how many women actually measure up on the Recreational Commitment - especially at female MLC time? Lets go golfing or fishing dear....yeah right, like that will happen. But he listens to her talk at him. He doesn't get his momentary (and easily recharged supply for her) of sexual fulfillment (which I assure you in my case is well enjoyed by her, and seldom for me "it's too much hard work") - even through she gets her fully contracted permanent and hard earned sparse Financial Commitment.
> 
> I'm think I need to hire a better union negotiator, especially on the details of the exit clauses.


You turn a relationship into a functional transactional negotiation, then obviously it is not going to work. 
The idea of HN/HN is to let partners realise that doing what you like for the other person may not work because they have different needs. Incidentally I think you could benefit from looking at the Love Busters. No-one is saying your 'partner' is perfect, she is probably a very flawed human being like all of us. But shouldn't you be asking her these questions? 
Shouldn't you be asking her if she wants to work on a relationship with your or not? You come on her ranting and raving but you do not address these issues with the woman herself, maybe it is time you got real and sat her down and told her exactly how you feel, you have done it here.
And to remind you, this forum is good for venting but the majority of us are here because we have our own problems, not because we are experts in anything, just people who might be able to share their experiences to help others. You my friend need professional help.


----------



## EleGirl

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKOIVBLTjcs




spotthedeaddog said:


> Ok so some are men. so what.
> 
> I was referring to the women folk taking that approach to their relationship, and those effeminate men who are emasculated to behave as a womans' resource pig (undeliberately, as opposed to deliberately). .


LOL.. you are calling the men who post here “effeminate”? Is that right? You ask people for input and help and then you set about insulting them? 



spotthedeaddog said:


> Incorrect. I'm am not saying that in anger. Several posts up further the writer writes that in Western cultural women expect emotional, finance, etc from their men/husbands.


What you seem to not get is that marriage and/or a love relationship is a partnership between equals. Both parties need to meet each other’s needs. Neither is a “resource pig” for the other in a good relationship.



spotthedeaddog said:


> The women expect these things to be delivered to them .... or what? does she sue? withhold contractual contributions that she perceives? Where are these obligations stated so a man can know what he's expected to provide, to what limit, for how long, and what he is entitled to in return.


Since today we do not have set roles, couples in a healthy relationship talk about what each of them wants and expects. It’s an ongoing process as needs change over time.

There is no set expectation that he will support her financially. It’s more that both are responsible for the financial wellbeing and everything else in the relationship/marriage. They might make the decision together that both of them work to support the family. Or they might make the decision together that one works and the other stays home to take care of the home and children.

Then with the other needs, they need to talk about these things and make sure that they meet each other’s needs. Both parties are responsible to the other. 

https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html

If you are actually interested in knowing what’s going on with her, get the books “His Needs, Her Needs” and “Love Busters”.






spotthedeaddog said:


> No.
> I expect people not to criticize my relationship.
> I expect people not to go on about me not having a relationship or that having a certain piece of jewelry makes a difference.


Oh come on, you are surely not that dense. It’s not about a piece of jewelry and you know it. It’s about making a solid commitment that would have given her and her children security that they do not have. A ring is only a symbol used to mean marriage. 



spotthedeaddog said:


> I expect people to get over the fact that [many] other people have relationships that are willingly different to what the perceive as the norm.


Yes, people have different types of relationships. But there are basic patterns in human nature. The way a person reacts to certain things is pretty predictable. A woman who gets little to no affection, non-sexual intimacy, bonding, etc will lose her connection to her partner. It’s biology. It has to do with brain chemistry. Humans are chemical engines. When certain hormones drop below the necessary level all feelings of affection and love are lost and can be very hard to get back. The woman does not want to be touched by the man. She does not want to be with him. It has nothing to do with what kind of relationship you have. It’s all about the way the human body and mind work.



spotthedeaddog said:


> I expect people to stick to the topic, or supply material related to the topic : why isn't the information available to men? what information should be available to a man? (apart from never buy into the idea that you have a unwritten contractual responsibility to provide resources for no return, for unlimited period, at your partners whim, or else her "love" will be withheld, and the man will be expected to accept all blame and responsibility for any results - including never buy into the idea that it is manly to accept blame for your partners issues or that it is your responsibility to cover up for them (as apparently it's not her responsibility to cover up for his - unless it is to her personal benefit).


Well, it seems that you are getting what you paid for here.

I suppose you can do your own research. The info is out there. I’m sure that if you really look you will find it.



spotthedeaddog said:


> Information and answers that are topical are wanted - I would prefer not to have to explain more about *my* relationship.


Then don’t.


----------



## EleGirl

spotthedeaddog said:


> Re: women using men then tossing them aside when they're tired of them.
> 
> Just read a modern western culture meme on FB.
> "more women need to start searching for guys who have goals and ambition because ten years later swag isn't goal to pay your bills"


Oh yea... Facebook is he source of all knowledge and wisdom. 
Here's something for your to think about.. facebook is full of nonsense junk that people share over and over again. It has little to do with real life.


spotthedeaddog said:


> so umm. why aren't the women paying their own way or having goals and ambitions of their own, why are they expecting to have men to pay those bills for them?


I don’t know any women who are not paying their own way and how don’t have goals and ambitions of their own and how do not pay their own bills.

I do know that there are some people, both men and women who have no ambition, goals and do not pay their own way. But I don’t generally associate with people like that. I suppose you could take up your concern with them. 


spotthedeaddog said:


> And what of those men who don't or aren't financially motivated, or whose companies or investments succumb to investment risks.


Well, I guess those men can get some ambition, goals and start paying their own way. Makes sense, doesn’t it? 



spotthedeaddog said:


> Thus why is it ok for counselors and MLC to say; sure, just discard the empties in the trash.... they're not your responsibility.... remember what you contracted up for.


What? That makes no sense. But what I do gleam from it is that you are looking for ways to trash women to make you feel better about yourself.


----------



## EleGirl

spotthedeaddog said:


> Yes I read it when Amway brought it out in there Book of the Month program, 20 years ago.
> Very limited christian/US interpretation of relationships.
> 
> Found the whole "contract" trade of services rather offensive
> So I'm giving as much
> 1 Affection,
> 2 Conversation,
> 3 Honesty and Openness,
> 4 Financial commitment
> 5 Family commitment
> as possible.
> 
> And being denied
> 1. Sexual Fulfilment
> 2. Recreational Companionship
> 4. Domestic Support
> 5. Admiration
> 
> So what are the full contractual requirements when the man is providing his 5, given her MLC.
> 
> And why do the women get the free ride on financial responsibility?


You have to have been there to fill those needs for her. You were not, so no you were not filling her needs.

It's not a contractual/transactional model. It's a model of how people function.

To me it sounds like she does not see herself as being in a relationship with you anymore. So she is not going to meet your needs. Why would she?


----------



## WandaJ

spotthedeaddog said:


> so umm. why aren't the women paying their own way or having goals and ambitions of their own, why are they expecting to have men to pay those bills for them? And what of those men who don't or aren't financially motivated, or whose companies or investments succumb to investment risks.
> .


And why men come to TAM and complain about ALL the women of the world, while you hardly ever see woman starting post "Why all men are such ..."?

One woman screw you and I am on the hook now? No way.

Pull yourself together, because if that's what you think about all the women, then that's what you'll be getting in life. You will keep falling for this kind of woman, because you don't believe there could be other type.

Forget about her, get on anti-depressant, and into IC. and stop generalizations.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

EleGirl said:


> You have to have been there to fill those needs for her. You were not, so no you were not filling her needs.
> 
> It's not a contractual/transactional model. It's a model of how people function.
> 
> To me it sounds like she does not see herself as being in a relationship with you anymore. So she is not going to meet your needs. Why would she?



I was there as much as was physically possible.

The financial issue required large loans and someone with the commitment to fulfill them - if I walked away 3 people who had offered their homes up as security - including the one she was living in - would have been sold from under them. 

This isn't 50 shades - real people have to actually work for income.

No-one else wanted to help so I was left to save the day on my own. Those offering the securities wanted their fee, otherwise they'd pull support.

These things were all discussed before the business was started - it wasn't until we were financially committed that she did the "but I don't want to shift" - which penalised me financially, the business financially, me on all the skill and support options.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

aine said:


> You turn a relationship into a functional transactional negotiation, then obviously it is not going to work.
> The idea of HN/HN is to let partners realise that doing what you like for the other person may not work because they have different needs. Incidentally I think you could benefit from looking at the Love Busters. No-one is saying your 'partner' is perfect, she is probably a very flawed human being like all of us. But shouldn't you be asking her these questions?
> Shouldn't you be asking her if she wants to work on a relationship with your or not? You come on her ranting and raving but you do not address these issues with the woman herself, maybe it is time you got real and sat her down and told her exactly how you feel, you have done it here.
> And to remind you, this forum is good for venting but the majority of us are here because we have our own problems, not because we are experts in anything, just people who might be able to share their experiences to help others. You my friend need professional help.


I have asked. I have been patient. I have been enquiring. I have been observing. I have been extra patient.
If I'm present and patient - I'm harrassing and putting on pressure, AND! to her it qualifies as her spending time with me - even though she is working on her own stuff, and I'm waiting patiently to have a nice discussion ... which is then 95% about whatever stuff she was just doing, what her friends are doing, and me showing an interest in what she is doing.
If I'm patient and go elsewhere - then "I'm doing my own thing" and that is her license to get on with whatever she wants to do without having to worry about me.....remember I have done that for periods up to six months at a stretch (waiting for a reply about whether she wants to go to a visiting live show on her birthday, or to take some folks out for a dinner, or something else.) I eventually had to push for an answer in the week, and the friends we going to ask out took her out and to the show without me - jacked up a day afterwards.

But as mentioned on a different threat - she seems to expect me to deliver the world at her feet, yet wait on her and the children on demand, according to others.

Life just doesn't roll like that. If she "supports me" by just agreeing to any idea or business that I'm proposing for us - like women discussing the weather and children _at_ each other, then that's not going to work. When I'm discussing a business or future proposal, it's an us proposition and it takes commitment from all parties to live up to their role - not just for "me to do my thing".

And yes I do discuss these things with professionals, several in fact. (of varying skill levels)
But when said "professionals" say things like 'well you just have to communicate with her'.... that brings us back to the thread subject ... *in that how does the non-MLC partner communicate with someone who goes out of their way not to communicate.*


----------



## EleGirl

spotthedeaddog said:


> I was there as much as was physically possible.
> 
> The financial issue required large loans and someone with the commitment to fulfill them - if I walked away 3 people who had offered their homes up as security - including the one she was living in - would have been sold from under them.
> 
> This isn't 50 shades - real people have to actually work for income.
> 
> No-one else wanted to help so I was left to save the day on my own. Those offering the securities wanted their fee, otherwise they'd pull support.
> 
> These things were all discussed before the business was started - it wasn't until we were financially committed that she did the "but I don't want to shift" - which penalised me financially, the business financially, me on all the skill and support options.


I understand about having to work... I've been the sole breadwinner for a family of 5 for a very long time. I get that you had to work and that the business tied you down.

I get that she did not want to move with you.

Would she have moved if you married her? I don't know if that was part of her issue.

But the bottom line is that she did not move. You did move. 

So you were both in a position where you could not nurture a relationship. So the relationship has died. That is what happens to relationships that are not nurtured.

It sounds to me like she does not consider herself in a relationship with you anymore.

It is perhaps time for you to accept this and move on. You cannot make her want to have a relationship with you.


----------



## EleGirl

spotthedeaddog said:


> I have asked. I have been patient. I have been enquiring. I have been observing. I have been extra patient.
> If I'm present and patient - I'm harrassing and putting on pressure, AND! to her it qualifies as her spending time with me - even though she is working on her own stuff, and I'm waiting patiently to have a nice discussion ... which is then 95% about whatever stuff she was just doing, what her friends are doing, and me showing an interest in what she is doing.
> 
> But as mentioned on a different threat - she seems to expect me to deliver the world at her feet, yet wait on her and the children on demand, according to others.
> 
> Life just doesn't roll like that. If she "supports me" by just agreeing to any idea or business that I'm proposing for us - like women discussing the weather and children _at_ each other, then that's not going to work. When I'm discussing a business or future proposal, it's an us proposition and it takes commitment from all parties to live up to their role - not just for "me to do my thing".
> 
> And yes I do discuss these things with professionals, several in fact. (of varying skill levels)
> But when said "professionals" say things like 'well you just have to communicate with her'.... that brings us back to the thread subject ... *in that how does the non-MLC partner communicate with someone who goes out of their way not to communicate.*


Communication takes two. If she will not communicate, then there is nothing you can do.

Well you could write her letters/email pouring your heart out. She might read them. I doubt that it would help.


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## Spotthedeaddog

aine said:


> OMG, Stdg, many people won't even bother responding to your diatribe, wow, but I will because I know inside all the ranting and raving and expletives you are hurting very badly. Go to a bloody doctor first of all and get yourself some Xanax or whatever they prescribe then get some good solid counselling or go to church group ( I know you are not Christian) as they may have those freely available.
> 
> So the whole world is out to get you, this is no longer about your 'partner' and your relationship. It is now about , your family, your siblings, your ex wife, your boss, the tax department, the bank.
> 
> Life can be shyte for all of us, we decide whether to have a pity party or pull our trousers up and get on with it. You need serious counselling, or a good friend to let it all out and do some venting.
> 
> I guess you thought you would find that in your 'partner' but when you do not invest emotionally in another person do not expect them to be there for you when you need them, that is the whole crux of life. As the saying goes some of us prop our ladder against the wall and start climbing only to find it was against the wrong wall when we get to the top of it. It happens.
> 
> I do feel sorry for you I do, but sometimes a little humility is needed, to seek help, listen to what others say (it may be useful), you sound very resentful and prideful. No-one can bring you to a place where you are open to changing how you see things or a place of change. You want others to change, that is not going to happen, you either change or break.
> 
> AND no-one is attacking you. My advice, forget about your 'partner' do something about yourself to become a better man, someone who is happy in his own skin, you should never find your happiness in another person.


Oh so all those comments about "how I think I'm perfect" , and "how I'm trying to control others" weren't ad hominem ? (ad hominem translates to "attack the person").

Actually that "find happiness in yourself" was beaten out of me as a child and as a young adult. Such things were selfish, anti-social, and sociopathic. One had to contribute to the community, do well to others, be nice and polite to others (for their approval), that while Family commitment thing and being a giving friend for your partner, putting others before yourself (good manners). we even see it with employees expecting their bosses to set up perfect workplaces for them with social and personal amentities - and I was told that as a boss and landlord, that I _MUST_ do those things and my needs came secondary to the others, and to the needs of animals and customers. In my tech job that later was paramount and part of annual review. Dad's had to put their own needs aside for Mum and the kids - sure she needed to support kids, and got old doing it - and Dad's the one supposed to be supporting them all, which is what I did.

I am certainly resentful - I have gone through hell. much of it caused from others not following through their serious commitments. I have suffered physical and mental harm to carry this, I had to surrender time I wanted to have with my family, surrender my dreams and young things I liked, worked insane hours. Do you know what it's like to do a 13 hour work day, then do another 4 of paperwork while hallucinating, then get up and do it again? Physically wrestle with animals and loads up to 500kg continuously for over a hour non-stop, while risking life and limb the whole time. Work 7 months, 15 hours a day, 7 days a week, to finish a project with 4 hours to spare, or risk bankruptcy to yourself and friends - having to threaten and cajole contractors to just do their paid bit in time.
done working days of 12 hours a day, where you had to literally _sprint_ from place to place just to get completed each day, for a month. Just because of a breakdown and staff on leave. Because your family had committed its home and homes of friends to making it work? (a friend delivered frozen leftovers to me during this period, which I ate thawed while travelling)

So yeah, I'm resentful.

Because I did make the change. (and I had been improving things the whole way, by my effort, as no-one else wanted to help). 

Sold it all up, 4 months ago. Big shock to the system. a few loose ends to deal with. But I sold up to be with my family, because I committed to when we had the finance we'd get married etc - as I told my counsellor at the time - no point having the business and being the wealthy lonely guy, since I did this for my family.
So I sold out to those putting pressure on me...and now the family doesn't want to know me, 3 months later. If they'd said back when I asked them about selling that they didn't want to know me, then I'd still have the business, and the projects I had on the simmer.

Now I have lost everything I worked for and valued. Why should I be resentful.

Prideful? yes. No virtue in false humility. Learnt that after being doormat-ed, before getting into business for myself. If I don't blow my horn, no-one else is going to do it for me.
apart from that, most of the rest is just me being open and transparent - which I did with all staff as well. You want to know what the boss does? what the company books are at? (everything except other employees pay/private details)


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

EleGirl said:


> Communication takes two. If she will not communicate, then there is nothing you can do.
> 
> Well you could write her letters/email pouring your heart out. She might read them. I doubt that it would help.


Sadly that is not an option.

Wouldn't be much of a business man or salesperson if I just let that occur.

Perhaps if I decide she and the children simply aren't worth the hassle, then I'll find something else to do and have nothing to do with them, like a lot of men find with their partners and family (that the effort to support a family like that, just isn't worth the crap, and chances are they'll never treat him decently, so he leaves.)

For the moment, she has been my everything, the reason and future that got me through the struggles and bad times. that's what got me arrested after talking to the counsellor - without her, without the family I have spent my life and everything for, whats the point of living - i might just as well stick my head in a rope, if the fight was for nothing and the future is just as empty. (eg do I get another family who asks just as much from me, and leaves me also with nothing - for I do not find pleasure in other things (like sports, music, computer games, etc))


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

EleGirl said:


> I understand about having to work... I've been the sole breadwinner for a family of 5 for a very long time. I get that you had to work and that the business tied you down.
> 
> I get that she did not want to move with you.
> 
> Would she have moved if you married her? I don't know if that was part of her issue.
> 
> But the bottom line is that she did not move. You did move.
> 
> So you were both in a position where you could not nurture a relationship. So the relationship has died. That is what happens to relationships that are not nurtured.
> 
> It sounds to me like she does not consider herself in a relationship with you anymore.
> 
> It is perhaps time for you to accept this and move on. You cannot make her want to have a relationship with you.


Then what was the last 12 years about then?

Why did she never mention that any time?

More than happy to let me keep slaving way to provide toys, money, visits when I could, sex, rare assistance when I ask because no-one else could cover, cuddles while watching movies and videos. She finally started covering some of her own extra bills from her government money, but I was the one covering the shortfall. Putting in double glazing for the house she was in, air con, underfloor insulation, solar hotwater, all so her budget stretched further. Perks from work relations (wine, food gifts etc)
Sure she never called me, but that hadnt ever changed since we first met. And I was always expected to initiate physical intimacy, but that never changed. not in the entire 18 years I've known her (sure it sucks, but you take the bad with the good)


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

spotthedeaddog said:


> Now I have lost everything I worked for and valued. Why should I be resentful.
> 
> Prideful? yes. No virtue in false humility. Learnt that after being doormat-ed, before getting into business for myself. If I don't blow my horn, no-one else is going to do it.
> apart from that, most of the rest is just me being open and transparent - which I did with all staff as well. You want to know what the boss does? what the company books are at? (everything except other employees pay/private details)


Oh and to add to that - why should I be be resentful?

she's had someone willing to support and be there as much as possible...

While the government pays her a free salary to use anywhere in the country for her to spend time with my children, be with them through the good and the bad when I couldn't get there. That with that free salary for her to make meals, clean house, do laundry just like we all have to do; to spend time bonding and sharing with the children, teaching sharing when I was busting my arse paying bills and doing taxes and dancing for the customers. She gets to spend time with friends, socialise with other families, play music, hangout, look at the childrens smiles and victories (or share in their pain).

She has free salary paid to her by government so she's free to follow her hobbies, they pay for training schemes, and motivational stuff for her. She gets to join in supporting/joining cast and talent for theater, while I'm working on the accounts at night. gets to go to the big art shows because of the volunteer work - while I get criticised by socialist types for "being a capitalist" since I have to work at my business just to stay afloat. and to keep all those people from losing _their_ houses.

What would I have to be resentful about? I still have [some] of my health left. Some [two, distance] friends. And still government child support bills to pay for another 8 years.


----------



## EleGirl

spotthedeaddog said:


> Sadly that is not an option.
> 
> Wouldn't be much of a business man or salesperson if I just let that occur.
> 
> Perhaps if I decide she and the children simply aren't worth the hassle, then I'll find something else to do and have nothing to do with them, like a lot of men find with their partners and family (that the effort to support a family like that, just isn't worth the crap, and chances are they'll never treat him decently, so he leaves.)
> 
> For the moment, she has been my everything, the reason and future that got me through the struggles and bad times. that's what got me arrested after talking to the counsellor - without her, without the family I have spent my life and everything for, whats the point of living - i might just as well stick my head in a rope, if the fight was for nothing and the future is just as empty. (eg do I get another family who asks just as much from me, and leaves me also with nothing - for I do not find pleasure in other things (like sports, music, computer games, etc))


You might not know this. But the people who are posting to you here have been through things very similar as you, in some cases even worse. We have a clue.

And yes I know what it’s like to work those kind of hours day after day. The only thing different was that I did not do is wrestle animals. And then add to it that I raised 3 children and was the only one taking care of things like the house, shopping, etc. Your situation, while bad and sad, is far from unique. (sadly). The point is that people deal with this all the time, get beyond it and heal.

In order to get through this, you have to take care of yourself first. We are not saying that you have to be selfish, self-centered, ignore community, etc. We are saying that if you do not take care of yourself you are going to get sick and fall apart.

Plus, if there is a chance of her wanting you back in her life, it will not happen if you are falling apart, acting like a victim and chasing her. That’s not attractive. Men are not attracted to women who act like that and women are not attracted to men who act like that.

In your mind you need to think of your children separately from her. You can have time with your children and build those relationships. Starting with that might be the best thing for you. Find things that they want to do, things they like and bring that into their lives. I’m not saying to pile gifts on them. Instead find things that they can do with you. Do they like the beach? (assuming there is on near you).. then take them to the beach.

An example of that would have worked with my son when he was younger what that he loves science (he’s working on his PHD in Physics these days). So we did experiments together. I also got him into building rockets and remote control airplanes. I was the only person who did those things with him and he loved it. If you can find something like that with your children.. then do it. Do it with them.

Maybe if she sees you doing a good job of really building the relationships with your children she might soften towards you. And if she does not, you have your children in your life. It sounds like a win to me no matter what happens.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Now can we get back to the thread topic:

What are the ways of getting your life back when your partner is doing her female MLC - and why isn't this recorded anywhere (like the huge amount of "your life is going to be wonderful" stuff _for_ the female MLC'er )


----------



## EleGirl

spotthedeaddog said:


> Then what was the last 12 years about then?
> 
> Why did she never mention that any time?
> 
> More than happy to let me keep slaving way to provide toys, money, visits when I could, sex, rare assistance when I ask because no-one else could cover, cuddles while watching movies and videos. She finally started covering some of her own extra bills from her government money, but I was the one covering the shortfall.
> 
> Putting in double glazing for the house she was in, air con, underfloor insulation, solar hotwater, all so her budget stretched further. Perks from work relations (wine, food gifts etc)
> Sure she never called me, but that hadnt ever changed since we first met. And I was always expected to initiate physical intimacy, but that never changed. not in the entire 18 years I've known her (sure it sucks, but you take the bad with the good)


Does she own the home she's in or do you?

Of course you pay some support for your children. Why wouldn't you? That's to be expected because you are their father.

All the rest of it sounds like she made very little effort. You know that's a huge sign that she's only partially into the relationship, right?

Discussing all this past is futile because it changes nothing. She is giving you the cold shoulder. Your best bet is to pull back off. You are not going to convince her to let you back into her life the way you are going.

Right now build the relationship with your children.


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## EleGirl

http://www.amazon.com/Survive-Your-...766985&sr=8-18&keywords=women+mid+life+crisis


----------



## aine

I'm sorry but there is no checklist for you to follow. Your problems do not stem from your 'partners' MLC alone.
As Elle said focus on your kids
Also focus on making yourself into a better man, developing other interests, etc.


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## Spotthedeaddog

EleGirl said:


> Does she own the home she's in or do you?
> 
> Of course you pay some support for your children. Why wouldn't you? That's to be expected because you are their father.
> 
> All the rest of it sounds like she made very little effort. You know that's a huge sign that she's only partially into the relationship, right?
> 
> Discussing all this past is futile because it changes nothing. She is giving you the cold shoulder. Your best bet is to pull back off. You are not going to convince her to let you back into her life the way you are going.
> 
> Right now build the relationship with your children.


I originally bought it to be rented out.
And it was used as security for the business for to 2013.
She said that one of the things that she wanted was stability in the relationship regarding the house so we transferred the property entirely to her name and made sure that the bank removed it from the mortgage documents that it used for the business loans (by now down to 450k, 70k overdraft).

According to my daughter the other day, I'm not a father, just a "genetic donor".

In my opinion she seldom made any effort but I put that down to kids, tired, etc. Even when she shifted to be with me the first time (when my ex-wife left me) she would travel with me while I was working but never initiate anything, or do any social activity (that would help my career - but that was a step up from my ex-wife who used to love spreading enhanced stories about my sexual activities for attention from social and work collegues).
And she worked hard in her job when she did.
So I was patient, open, supporting, attentive, not critical or pushy.
Apparently (I got accused couple weeks ago after the "we have our own stuff") that I didn't change or feed or entertain the baby enough.

I don't think I really want to bother building a relationship with my daughter. We did enough discussing Anime but I haven't been invited to any of her events and she doesn't both trying hard at school. And after the "genetic donor" remark...I'm sure she's going to do fine with her life on her own.

My 10 year old son is different story. Going to make an effort there, especially as his mother mostly ignores him (which is a typical Maori thing). Sadly she's coddled him a bit so he's not very emotionally strong or motivated.

I had hoped to be there more in the last two years but government law changes meant tough changes to the business, that took my expertise to troubleshoot. (common cleaning products were leaving residue, but the steps given by "experts" didn't fix the problem, so we...I... had to isolate and fix the problem (to the industries relief, and much stress and time cost to me personally)).

But I just figured that's how she was and I did my best when I could. I was going through absolute hell - so couldn't really expect volunteers. And when I'd say things like "what do you like about me" (in order to contribute more positiveness) I would just get "I don't know". But that seems to be common type of answer from women - "fine", "ok", "dunno","later". So I listen a lot, do what I can, bury the pain, and wait for another day - it's not like there weren't a dozen other emergencies demanding my attention.
Sometimes I'd say ok, can you get back to me, or can you sort that for me it's important. She occasionally came through but only if I pushed, but I don't want to push her all the time.

Like I say that's better than my ex. Who would agree then just do nothing, and spend any available funds on herself.
Or my previous gf, who would just follow me around helping if I gave her explicit directions but would just stand and sulk, or if asked to get supplies, would get everything wrong (unless it was a OMG h... f... emergency, where she could manage simple but critical help)

Compared to my current (ex)partner MLC person, I have yet to meet a decent woman (except my best friend (who is in another country) wife, and they're both medical professionals, and only had one kid, very early on) but his wife got most of her ex-husbands assets in the divorce...so bit tainted sample.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

EleGirl said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Survive-Your-...766985&sr=8-18&keywords=women+mid+life+crisis


omg I think I'm going to faint.
on topic and useful, thank you. (and purchase in Kindle). I'm trying to force myself to read 50 shades at the moment (after commenting negatively to my (ex-)partner without reading it, 4 months ago- saying how it was probably just some rich goodlooking socially ranked Male Mary Sue type, and a zero input nobody girl in search of validation. based my guess on how popular twilight was, and it seemed the same crowd that went gaga over the light bdsm stuff reputed to be in it)

I think that 180 list is going to help.

after discussions here and on other threads, and other forums, I'm going with the 180 and my above plans. But I've got good reasons to be resentful ... and looking around I'm not the only man who has grounds, including many who are going to find themselves in a similar boat after buying into the "be there for your family", "support your wife/gf and her equality" BS. far too many women are uncommunicative selfish immature *****es, in the end they have no consideration for their partner, and from what I read only, really interested in for reproductive urges - no true compassion, no true love as equals, or deep commitment. so why should me and other guys pay the price for that.


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## aine

Your comments are very telling about your daughter. 
She is the child, you are the adult but you act like a petulant kid who is not getting what he wants. FFS grow up! Your daughter probably doesn't even know you, she is calling it as it is, and you get insulted and decide you are not going to have a relationship with her. Is it because she is female, you have a bit of misogyny going on there from some of the other comments you have been making.
Just because you work, put a roof over your kids head doesn't mean she has to give a d**** about you, billions of fathers do that and much more. You have a sense of entitlement when it comes to her, she owes you nothing, she did not ask to be born. You have to do the work if you can get over yourself long enough. Look at it from her point of view. She is a teenager who didnt really have you in her life and one other thing, we do not care about our kids and have relationships with them depending on whether they try at school or not, that comment is also very telling. Relationships are not based on performance targets but in your unusual (I am being nice) version of the world according to STDD, everyone has their place and should respond according to certain parameters, people are not robots. You need to go talk to a professional, honestly.


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## Spotthedeaddog

aine said:


> Your comments are very telling about your daughter.
> She is the child, you are the adult but you act like a petulant kid who is not getting what he wants. FFS grow up! Your daughter probably doesn't even know you, she is calling it as it is, and you get insulted and decide you are not going to have a relationship with her. Is it because she is female, you have a bit of misogyny going on there from some of the other comments you have been making.
> Just because you work, put a roof over your kids head doesn't mean she has to give a d**** about you, billions of fathers do that and much more. You have a sense of entitlement when it comes to her, she owes you nothing, she did not ask to be born. You have to do the work if you can get over yourself long enough. Look at it from her point of view. She is a teenager who didnt really have you in her life and one other thing, we do not care about our kids and have relationships with them depending on whether they try at school or not, that comment is also very telling. Relationships are not based on performance targets but in your unusual (I am being nice) version of the world according to STDD, everyone has their place and should respond according to certain parameters, people are not robots. You need to go talk to a professional, honestly.


She is a child, and I have been there when I can, she came to visit me with her mum. Seemed to enjoy the benefits of a hardworking Dad with good income.
She has duty to the Family if she wishes to remain part of it, she is free to put her funeral paint on and leave if she wishes, it is a oneway trip, so is totally disrespecting the patriarchs and matriarchs of the family.
I did not ask for her to be born either - I was married to someone else at the time and given the difficulty of conception both of us had had, and that we use contraceptive it was a surprise. And before you jump on that bandwagon, yes my wife was well aware of my polyamorous views, and since we met when she was with my male best friend at a menage a trois (he moved on), she's hardly in position to throw stones.

It's not because "she is female" it is because her having contribute nothing, and still contributing not even respect, then she will not receive anything. If I am not "Dad", then she is not "Daughter" - if I am "Genetic Donor", then she will be and remain "outsider", I have given her my donation (and plenty of effort during the years). Her being female and teenage...does not entitle her to more - there are no free rides here.

And yes billions of dads do more - and look at the figures - look at the attitudes towards men and fathers - look at the consequences of MLC (on both sides). Is there movement to appreciate Dad's needs? Everything I read is about him changing, and him sacrificing everything to make it work - then when the poop hits the fan, he loses his assets, is expected to pay her support for what?, and if he says what about what I worked for and my life I sacrificed, the word is, "your choice schmuck" , what makes you think you're entitled to anything. Yet all along the HN/HN and social weight, and your description above, comes from a position that reflects some unwritten form of entitlement. That's why I look down on woman who have that attitude and most do - and down on men who buy into it and worse inflict it through law onto to others. The do disservice to men and sons everywhere - you expect me to support my "Genetic Donation" with love and attention and funds earned from spending my life hours and hard hard work? then either I get to only give of, from freewill, or I expect reciprocal trade, not just "for as long as I feel like doing so". "Being an adult" doesn't mean I have to be a used schmuck, some john for her to prop up her lifestyle - if I do that, how will she treat her husband? She will expect the same, that her husband be required to be a john or atm, to be her beck and call - or she will withhold her attention, or "fall out of love", and she will see a "hard commitment" as an annoying choice - because that's how her Mum play it, and that's how her Dad let the example play out. 

You may not care about your children based on whether they honor their commitments. I know that, which is one reason I think your culture and society is pig excretment, and why it consumes its members.
My culture is different, it has dharma and karma, you honor the family, you follow the laws (and they are few and mostly honored in heart and act, never in word), you thrive as the family thrives.
It's not like I don't love my daughter, it's that if she disowns me as Dad, and herself as family, then I and we have zero commitment to her, even if the love is still there. After all Love is the Law.

and yes, as IR said, people walking certain paths need do so while commiting to professional consults - like a car has tune ups. So the constant "see a professional to conform" really is a bit pointless.

Perhaps you need to do some more research into why you think women b(and children) get that free entitlement.


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## Spotthedeaddog

aine said:


> Is it because she is female, you have a bit of misogyny going on there from some of the other comments you have been making.


It's not misogyny, I have intense dislike for anyone who would string along a person, profiting from 12 - 15 years of their hard labor, then lying and not communicating, then clearing off leaving the hard working persons life in ruins. Gender of any type not counting - this is no mere romp in the hay, or some high school romance over a year with the rest of their life to recover from. You don't monopolise a huge chunk of someone's life then discard them 

I was being told that she doesn't have time to spend with me - but now I hear that she wants to join in with the community policing patrols (civilian patrols who do unpaid work that the police are paid to do.). At least the St John Youth was connected to look after the children "it's all about the children"....except rather than spend time with family and her 10 year old son, she wants to play free police person.

I was told that the Youth program has a ski trip being planned next year - I think well that could be fun, never tried it before - but I get told "I don't think you'll pass the police check. Ok, run it see what comes up. Oh it's for St John people only." - oh and she told my son he isn't allowed to go either.

So misogyny - just allergy to dishonest people.

I strongly dislike and distrust police, but I've just mentioned that if she joins the community patrols, I'll do so too, so well have stories to share.


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## aine

spotthedeaddog said:


> Frankly, you made your bed so lie in it, your daughter didn't that is the difference, yet you moan about your lot in life. I could have some choice words for you about your life style, being married to someone then making genetic contributions to someone else, so get off your moral high horse please and don't hide behind your culture, your traditions, if they are so much better then go and ask like minded people for their help. Why you on a forum where the majority of people have a culture and society which is pig excrement to you!
> 
> 
> You may not care about your children based on whether they honor their commitments. I know that, which is one reason I think your culture and society is pig excretment, and why it consumes its members.
> 
> I care deeply about my children as does my very hard working, much travelling husband. We have brought our kids up very well, both excel in their places of study, my son is on an overseas scholarship, yet both contribute to society through NGOs, sports in their places of study. Both have contributed to their communities by helping those less fortunate whether low income kids or abandoned animals. They have been taught to respect their families, their neighbours and to give their best no matter what. However, they are not loved by us because of their achievements, they are loved by us because they are our flesh and blood and that is what parents do in our "pig excrement" culture. These values are taught by parents. How can you expect anything much from your daughter except rudeness and disdain, in fact she follows in your footsteps in that regard. An absentee father should not expect much, money doesn't buy these things, respect is not demanded but earned. Oh I forgot that is only in the pig excrement culture as you put it. w
> 
> 
> My culture is different, it has dharma and karma, you honor the family, you follow the laws (and they are few and mostly honored in heart and act, never in word), you thrive as the family thrives.
> It's not like I don't love my daughter, it's that if she disowns me as Dad, and herself as family, then I and we have zero commitment to her, even if the love is still there. After all Love is the Law. Ant therein is the problem, love, honor etc none of these things can be regulated
> 
> and yes, as IR said, people walking certain paths need do so while commiting to professional consults - like a car has tune ups. So the constant "see a professional to conform" really is a bit pointless.
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion, and to discount what billions of people have found so useful in the course of their lives but then again, their culture is probably totally inferior and they are weak minded etc etc
> 
> Perhaps you need to do some more research into why you think women b(and children) get that free entitlement.I never said that anyone has free entitlement to anything, that is how you interpreted it. In fact I believe each is responsible for his own behaviour and cannot control others. For someone so anti entitlement, you believe you are entitlement to the love, respect, honor from your 'partner' and your kids just because you financially supported them. You believe you are entitled to something from your daughter who obviously sees you as a 'genetic donor' do you think she asked to have a father whom she sees like that? I conclude that everything is about you, don't you have any empathy or understanding from another's perspective, obviously not and that is why you are alone now.
> That hasn't worked has it, because such things are not capable of being regulated by a law as you put it, these are matters for the inner man/woman, you cannot force them, demand them, control them no more than you can control the raging sea waters with a bucket


whilst I enjoy this continual banter, for want of a better word, I think I shall hold my peace from here on out as I don't think you need any help, just want to prove that you are right in your thinking and everyone else is wrong, good luck with that and I do hope that you resolve the things that you face currently, eventually.


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## Spotthedeaddog

aine said:


> whilst I enjoy this continual banter, for want of a better word, I think I shall hold my peace from here on out as I don't think you need any help, just want to prove that you are right in your thinking and everyone else is wrong, good luck with that and I do hope that you resolve the things that you face currently, eventually.



I though I better post what I did to see how much the wind changed when I was on the other side of the fence.

When she has issues, I get quoted HN/HN and told I'm not living up to contract.
When I say someone isn't meeting their responsibilities toward me, I'm told that I have no right to expectations.

I've worked in business, I spotted your con-job. translated, I'm supposed to give everything then be worked over.

And I'm asking around - finding a lot of strangers working and sharing a house. He keeps busy to stop himself thinking, she does what she wants and is annoyed about having someone "in her house" during work hours.

I don't do the volunteer thing because I've seen too many people ripped off by it and too many women using it as a justification crutch to neglect their partner with a convenient excuse.

It appears "love" is something that only exists for a woman when she wants genetic material (and then she expects him to pay. wtf.) Or when she wants income or validation or "divorce" would look bad socially.

It has occurred to me that my (ex)partners also annoyed because I dislike my daughters attitude, and made the mistake of voicing my disapproval. My have-to-work was the business for many years, so I defended my work. Her work was raising that daughter (in a manner I wasn't happy with at the time but I held my piece) and so if I'm not happy with the product then I'm discrediting her validation as a Mother. Not only that but she is living her life through her daughter, as a mini-me, so in disapproving of her daughters behaviour, I am disagreeing with her.

But instead of a trustworthy mate in my (ex)partner. It looks like she wants me to get high social rank and big penis income (despite outwardly denying such things eg by telling me I'm just "all about the money"). That's why she probably latching on to uniform and people with ranking, searching for validation - and away from home, now that I'm no longer stuck at a distance. (suggested by my counselor)

Looking at joining a social mixed sports league, which might link to some social ideas.
As well as designing and writing that App for St John.


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## Spotthedeaddog

Found out what is driving my (ex-)partner.

Turns out her "buzz" is from the number of reports a person has (business speak for the people working under a manager). Having lots of people in the organisation, regardless of who they are or what they do, is her validation. The bigger the count, the more important the person is - just like some folks have huge "friends" counts on facebook.

When I stopped dealing online with the pagan community, stopped getting into all those drama's, stopped being a name on peoples' lips, that reduced my appeal.
With the other groups I deal with, I prefer a consulting, an aiding role, rather than a fling the penis around leader type, that meant I wasn't prominant.
When I stopped seeing someone else, that was one more person validating and setting standards that was lost.
When I sold the company to be with my family, I was no longer a relevant person.

That her role is in a charity, and she only has the job because no one else would do it... doesn't matter. see has 300 reports (50 of whom are adults). this apparently is what life is all about. That and that it means see gets to meet important people (people who write in newspapers, people who sit on the council, etc)


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## EleGirl

spotthedeaddog said:


> Found out what is driving my (ex-)partner.
> 
> Turns out her "buzz" is from the number of reports a person has (business speak for the people working under a manager). Having lots of people in the organisation, regardless of who they are or what they do, is her validation. The bigger the count, the more important the person is - just like some folks have huge "friends" counts on facebook.
> 
> When I stopped dealing online with the pagan community, stopped getting into all those drama's, stopped being a name on peoples' lips, that reduced my appeal.
> With the other groups I deal with, I prefer a consulting, an aiding role, rather than a fling the penis around leader type, that meant I wasn't prominant.
> When I stopped seeing someone else, that was one more person validating and setting standards that was lost.
> When I sold the company to be with my family, I was no longer a relevant person.
> 
> That her role is in a charity, and she only has the job because no one else would do it... doesn't matter. see has 300 reports (50 of whom are adults). this apparently is what life is all about. That and that it means see gets to meet important people (people who write in newspapers, people who sit on the council, etc)


Did she tell you that the above is what her problem is? How did you find out?


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## Spotthedeaddog

EleGirl said:


> Did she tell you that the above is what her problem is? How did you find out?


Of course she didn't tell that was what her problem is - she has no "problem". She has "a life".

I visited to find out what arrangements were being made for my son's 11th birthday (31 Oct).

I got to hear about her volunteer work, what they were planning, how her boss was doing, how many people she has under her, how others didn't recognise her rank. (rank has previously been unimportant). What the new numbers were, the plans for the team development. She doesn't seem to acknowledge that the primary qualification for the job is that no-one else wanted it.
It also occurred to me that her interest was dying off as I pulled out of things like the public pagan scene, where I was well known and very active in several groups. I got sick of the idiots and the constant drama's (and that most of the "successful" ones got by on government benefits or hubbies good paycheck - and much of their "skill" was from huge budget to buy books or attend expensive courses). And that I pulled out of medieval reenactment and martial arts (work commitments, couldn't afford the injury risk or time). She loved that I got into FreeMasonry, I thought it was the positive atmosphere and nice appearance, but looking back I think it was because I was climbing the heirarchy ladder - being #5, then #4, #3 - and bunches of committees. Sadly it meant I had less time for work and family, so it had to go on the backburner. Also I had female company from the business, when I had to dismiss her from the company after almost killing someone twice and almost bankrupting the company from lack of attention on the job, that was, looking back, the time when my STBX started loosing interest - keen and visited and complained when I had all those commitments and people; not interested when they were gone.

I just thought her public stuff was motivating, for our family, and as she keeps saying "all about the kids". But I'm trained to read body language and nuance (part of martial arts and sales and management). Until the news I've always put perfect trust in what she has said. But now I'm on the outside, I'm looking more critically. "The kids" (all of them in her organisation, not ours) are merely a tally to the operational efficiency and success. There is no growth in what to do outside the organisation (18+ yr) or about how it affects outside her organisation, only how big her chunk is and how much better it is than everyone elses.

As for my son's 11th? She has nothing planned. He *might* get a last minute cake, or taken to the picture theatre. But no friend(s) - "she's not looking after anyone else's kids".
By then I had finished my coffee, did the fish-mouth thing, and took my leave.

So yeah, I doubt its "about the children" and it's all about the recognition and reports. Classic stuff.


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