# I need a kick in the ass!



## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

So with my situation I think what is happening is that H is focused on what the marriage was like prior to his EA (complacent, I wasn't affectionate, felt more like roomates, etc.) and I am so focused on what he did that I can't even think about what led us down this path. I realize that he still had no right betraying me however I still have to acknowledge the marriage prior and the role I played in the decline of it.

I find that due to his EA and now the lack of trust, not wanting to be played a fool again, etc. that I find I want to hold back. I just want to remember what he did and basically not let him forget about it. I think we are not growing as a couple and going to a healthier relationship and things are not getting better..we had another rough weekend with arguing, etc. because I want to vent and express my doubts and how angry I am at him, etc. I find I like to make sarcastic comments to him in anger about what he did, which I know isn't right.

I do not want to separate yet I feel like if this continues either him or I will have no choice..it is not healthy. 

For example, I thought about sending him a text at work today telling him that I love him and sorry about the fighting on the weekend yet a big part of me thinks...what the ****, he is the one that lied and deceived me. He should be sending me a text trying to reassure and comfort me....

I know I am not handling the R right but I find that it is like I want to keep reminding him constantly about what he did and how much he hurt me.

I am realizing that I am so paranoid about "putting myself out there" to someone that hurt me so bad..and the anger I still hold...logically I know I shouldn't be venting all the time and I have been given some terrific advice on here but when that emotion comes it is like all logic leaves my head and it is "go" time. Sometimes all I think is what if I am all lovey dovey with him and then I get hurt again. I know it is normal to think that but this is just becoming more of a vicious cycle...because I feel like I am showing him exactly why he was unhappy previous to his EA.

I badly need a kick in the ass!


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

He is doing some of those things..but I think what is holding him back is fear that the marriage will revert back to prior and that fact that I am coming across as moody and angry at the drop of a hat right now. One hour I am fine and then out of the blue my mind will start thinking negative thoughts and then I am itching to vent to him again. I know he is willing to discuss what happened but he does not want it to get into an angry fest which so often it does.

So I see his point however my fears and insecurities are making me an emotional roller coaster. I know that is not good for me nor is it good for our R.

I have more control over my life than what I think and sometimes I think in my head I want to play the victim and woe is me. I am not in any shape condoning what he did but at some point I have to just start to let it go, it happened now I have to deal with it.

I hate this...however a part of me feels like we can make some huge strides in our marriage if we handle this correctly.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Try to tell him what you are feeling vs showing him. You need to do your best to make it safe for him to talk to you, but you sound like you know that. So when you trigger instead of throwing a plate at him tell him - that really makes me mad. If you feel the emotions starting to win leave the room until you can get control, when you do tell him something like - I'm about to lose it and I don't want to - it's not what I mean but I can't help it - I'll be back in a minute. Then go beat the snot out of teddy bear or something and return once you've gotten the emotions back under control.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I may have told you this before, but our MC had me do something that helped me tremendously.

I wrote down a 'stream of consciousness' series of words about my feelings, spent maybe 3-4 minutes just writing whatever came into my mind. Then I tore it into tiny pieces, then I burned it. It was extremely cathartic.

I also find it really helps if I close my eyes, take 10 deep cleansing breaths, then if I need more than that I visualize a giant eraser that erases the negativity, or I imagine the negativity as a bubble, then I blow it out (literally) and watch it pop in my minds eye.

I also remember having to force myself to actually do things like send that text message. Now we tell each other we love each other all the time, maybe 15-20 times a day when we're physically together, not as much when we're both at work and have to just email. But WAY WAY more than we ever did before. 

Oh, and here's your kick in the arse


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

HOpe I know..I find myself wanting to hold back on the I love you...because all I am thinking is he ****ed up he should be doing that, thanking me for sticking with him, etc. etc.

So then I think, **** it..I have too much pride to do that let him do it instead. I think we are both gun shy..I am angry and bitter about what he did and he is anxious and uncertain about what my mood will be like. The MC told me that by continually getting angry at him I am trying to keep him at a distance when he said that I thought no..but now not sure maybe that is correct.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Love that picture..Hope!
I needed that!!!!!

I like what you said about writing..I tell myself to do that but then I do not make it a priority well I think it has to be a priority right now.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

....and another thing I was thinking about something that Dr. Phil says: "What I fear I create"...and I think I am actually doing that. Almost like I am not acting like a person that he wants to come home to and stay married to instead acting like a moody ***** who he can't wait to get away from.


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## LeighRichwood (Mar 31, 2012)

Have you considered just telling him the truth? That you're worried that if you stop harping he'll think you don't hurt anymore? That you're trying really hard to let it all go and become the wife he wants but if you do that you're afraid he'll think he "got away with it"?

I did that with my husband and it helped him understand why it was hard for me to let go. He didn't understand about the triggers until I told him.

Also, I heard or read something at that time (forgot where) that said he needs to believe that if he stays in the marriage he won't have to eat a sh!t sandwich every day for the rest of his life because of the affair. That kind of stuck with me. For our marriage to rebuild, he had to believe that he would one day work himself out of jail.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

That is true! I have mentioned it in counselling. But sometimes you kind of go with your emotion. I sent him a text about an hour ago apologizing for the kind of crappy weekend..I was moody especially on Saturday. Haven't heard anything back yet which kind of pisses me off. Who knows he might not have read it yet but I tend to think the worst..and now I am starting to regret sending the text because it does make me think that in a way I am gravelling to him. I know I shouldn't think like that but it does go thru my head. Frick it is amazing how the mind games you play with your head really starts impacting you.

I think it is a self protection mode with me to want to keep the anger between us so if he ends up screwing up again...maybe it will not hurt so much...I don't know! I am so sick of thinking about this situation and having it control me all the time. I think a part of me thinks he should be sending me flowers and leaving love notes as per what I have read that some WS's do to win back their spouses....so when I feel like I am putting myself out I start to feel resentful like I do now that he should be sending me I love you texts not the other way around.

This is such a vicious cycle...I act less than loving to him because I am resentful towards him yet he finds it hard to act loving with me because I still have such anger toward him....ackkkkkkk!!!!!!!


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Are you and your hubby familiar with the 'love bank' concept? Do you guys do reading about healing from infidelity, marriage and stuff together?


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## LeighRichwood (Mar 31, 2012)

It does seem like it will never end. I remember it well. I also got so sick of thinking about it all the time. I also wondered why my husband didn't bring flowers or things like that to win me back. In hindsight I probably would have considered that insincere. He would have known that and then we'd be in another fight. It was better that he stepped back into our family life and became a dad and a husband again. He did things like help around the house, take the kids out on Saturday so I could relax, and see chick flicks with me. This was the guy I was married to before his affair. Now when he brings me flowers it makes me happy.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Hey Hope, no not familar with that at all!

See this is what happens how one minute I feel loving toward him and then I feel that anger coming over me..the resentment toward him..that he is not trying enough in my eyes.

Sometimes I think too much damage has been done by both of us in order to ever repair this situation. I know what he will say too when he gets home...well yes I got your text why do you have to get so angry, etc. etc. Then I will get defensive and feel resentful that he didn't at the very least send me an I love you back. He is the one that betrayed me for 6 months all the while telling me nothing was going on.

Sometimes I think I am beating my head against a rock...maybe my expectations are too high I don't know!!!!!!! All I know is the anger is pretty high right now. 

Am I wrong to assume that he should be putting more effort into this or is my anger causing him to recoil???? I hate to say this but I feel another angry evening coming again. Why isn't he sending me a text saying something like..I love you we can work it out again I am sorry for what happened...that would mean so much and cause me to feel more positive but instead nothing.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

That is true..H was never really that type anyway. As a matter of fact I am not really that romantic type as well.

It is just these emotions that are so wildly fluctuating everyday. Sometimes I think I can't stand it anymore...I know I am acting moody but can't seem to stop it.

I know intellectually that I am doing alot wrong yet here I am again feeling resentful and angry toward him...wishing I had not sent that text. I guess it makes me feel vulnerable and I feel weak that this person did this to me and in a way am I putting up with it???


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The love bank is something that you each fill for each other by doing little things like say I love you, getting him a drink, him kissing you in the morning or helping you with a chore neither of you likes to do, you taking out the trash for him so he can sit and watch the game, him taking a bite out of the sandwich he made for you and putting a note in it that says "Tested for You with Love". Every time you do something like that, you fill his love bank, and he likewise fills yours. When our love banks are full, they can take withdrawals much easier (harsh words, things like him ignoring your text). You each make a conscious effort to fill each others love banks.

My hubby has a hole in the bottom of his that we're working on sealing up right now (our MC's analogy) - he sabotages himself and empties out what I've put in there for him. Your hubby sounds like he is no good at filling yours.

It's probably a combination of you being angry and him not putting the effort in. You HAVE GOT to get to where you can talk about what he did - you have GOT to. Of course he doesn't like to - what cheater does? But unless he can, you can't get what you need from him to stay with him.

It might take something drastic for him to realize that.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

When you talk about not getting the text, how will you bring it up??

You should read Gottmans 7 Principles for Making Marriage Work. It was our blueprint for the first year. Talks about how women tend towards harsh start ups and how to avoid them.

And as for feeling like you're putting up with what he did - well, are you?? Are you rug sweeping? Are you prepared to hand out dire consequences if he can't do what he needs to do, ie talk about what he did?


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

We have talked about what happened to death..sometimes it is a good productive conversation and then other times it ends up into me spewing venom about him and her.

I think I have a real fear of being vulnerable right now..so you know how they say fear comes out as anger I think I feel safe when I am angry because then I feel like I have the control over this situation. So right now as I sent him that text it makes me feel vulnerable and then when I do not get anything back from him the anger starts. I start thinking **** him I am done, etc. etc. He should be begging me for forgiveness.

I am so scared of him hurting me again and feeling like a fool that I am protecting myself by keeping angry. I realize that but it feels safe...the MC told me that because my dad cheated on my mom that I have unresolved issues from my childhood. Which is probably true but I do not feel angry at my dad I feel angry at my H right now. I feel that I have gotten over my parents issues.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I don't know maybe I feel inside that I should have kicked him out especially 5 weeks ago when we had DD#2..maybe I am angry at myself for not doing that...I don't know!!!!


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Maybe you've never gotten over what your dad did and that's part of the problem now.

Only you can change the way you act. Make a promise to yourself that you're going to handle this evening better. Send him another text telling him something else - don't take it personally. My hubby is HORRIBLE at texting - he is half deaf and technically impaired so he either doesn't hear it or has inadvertently set it to silent.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> Try to tell him what you are feeling vs showing him. You need to do your best to make it safe for him to talk to you, but you sound like you know that. So when you trigger instead of throwing a plate at him tell him - that really makes me mad. If you feel the emotions starting to win leave the room until you can get control, when you do tell him something like - I'm about to lose it and I don't want to - it's not what I mean but I can't help it - I'll be back in a minute. Then go beat the snot out of teddy bear or something and return once you've gotten the emotions back under control.


I have done the "I need a break from this right now. Give me a few minutes" before. Several times. It helps to gather your thoughts and remember to use your head too and not just your heart.


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## LeighRichwood (Mar 31, 2012)

Hope raises good points. Since you're thinking this to death, anyway, try to think about it productively. Think about how you're going to bring this up with him in a non-confrontational way. Then figure out how you will make yourself stay in a non-confrontational frame of mind.

I know some will disagree, but it is understandable that a spouse doesn't want to continually get yelled at for something they got yelled at for yesterday when they haven't repeated the infraction. While I know that this is a major simplification and an affair isn't just an infraction, think about how it must feel to get pelted right and left with the same stuff over and over.

I'm not saying he may not deserve it, I'm just saying he may not be able to mentally take it. I honestly know that if it was me in those shoes I'd have a hard time hearing that and only that for an extended period no matter how much I deserved it.

So, think about how you can talk to him without allowing it to go into a fight. If it heads in that direction, make a plan and stick to it for how you'll handle it. If you have to, say something like "I made a promise to myself that I wouldn't blow up at you. I feel like I'm on the edge so I'm going to take a walk." Anything you can do to be proactive there will be better than giving in to the urge to blow up.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I promised him (and me) early on that I would not 'make him pay' forever, by bringing it up over and over, yelling, throwing it in his face, etc. You have NO IDEA how many times I had to literally gag on my own words in order to not do those things.

I think you need to have an AHA! moment, when you realize that yelling and getting mad is detrimental to what you're trying to do. At least I did. It was in MC when he brought up the fact I had promised that once. Something in my mindset shifted and after that it was far easier to keep my promise.


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## LeighRichwood (Mar 31, 2012)

One other thought - may work for you, may not. Have you considered taking a 24 hour break from the whole situation? This would entail not talking to him about it at all. If you can't talk to him about something else, then don't talk to him at all. I don't mean give the silent treatment, just don't start conversations if you think it might go south. Tell him your plan if you must do that. Also, make a deal with yourself to stay busy and not think about this if you can during that 24 hours. Develop a plan for how you'll stay busy. Don't get on the internet, don't talk to friends who get you riled up, don't do anything that feeds this fire for you. Plan a shopping trip, work on a project, clean house, get a pedicure, what ever it takes. The mental break might be a good thing.


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## LeighRichwood (Mar 31, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I promised him (and me) early on that I would not 'make him pay' forever, by bringing it up over and over, yelling, throwing it in his face, etc. You have NO IDEA how many times I had to literally gag on my own words in order to not do those things.
> 
> I think you need to have an AHA! moment, when you realize that yelling and getting mad is detrimental to what you're trying to do. At least I did. It was in MC when he brought up the fact I had promised that once. Something in my mindset shifted and after that it was far easier to keep my promise.


It's important to keep your promises - especially when he's really paying attention to it.

The other thing is to think about what you get out of this. Not behaving like a mad woman hurts you more than it does him, probably.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Thanks ladies..I will update tomorrow.

I am going to try and have a better day tomorrow and try not to turn it into an argument this evening!


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## LeighRichwood (Mar 31, 2012)

Good luck, highwood. I hope you do have a good night tonight and that tomorrow is a better day.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Highwood~

You know how you look back at your husband's affair, and it just makes you *SO ANGRY?* :FIREdevil: And you know, how he said at the time "It just happened" and "I couldn't control myself" as a way of justifying his bad choices? And now (with hindsight) you think something like: "*YEAH RIGHT!!* * You had a million chances to stop yourself and you purposely chose not to!! At any time you could have made the decision to think of me and exert some self-control, and you didn't. You KNEW you were deeply hurting me, and my pain didn't stop you!"* issed: Right? 

Well think about this. You KNOW for a fact that it is wrong to rage against your husband. You have said it yourself, so I'm not judging you using my morality--just repeating your own. 


> I know intellectually that I am doing alot wrong yet here I am again feeling resentful and angry toward him..


 And yet you continue to choose to do what you know is wrong, justifying it with "It just happens" and "I can't stop myself." Just like you, he could say back to you: "YEAH RIGHT!! You had a million chances to stop yourself (from raging at me) and you purposely chose not to!! At any time you could have made the decision to think of me and exert some self-control, and you didn't. You KNEW you were deeply hurting me, and my pain didn't stop you!" 

Highwood, I'm not here to 2x4 you, but I am here to say that if HE should have thought of you and cared enough about you to stop...then you "should" also think of him and care enough about him to stop. You CAN control yourself, and you CAN choose to stop, just like he could have. 

Now you hit on a really good point would you wrote: 


> ...you know how they say fear comes out as anger I think I feel safe when I am angry because then I feel like I have the control over this situation.


 Speaking as one who was physically abused as a child, it's a sort of sick (as in unhealthy) way of looking at it, but in a way we are afraid to "let go" of abuse because although it's scary and it hurts, at least we know it. At least we know what to expect and how to handle it! If we let go of "abuse," it would be something we don't understand, don't know, have never seen, and don't know WHAT could happen!

I suspect this is what's happening for you, highwood. I think you know that you can control yourself and you don't have to rage at your husband, but if you stop and you lay down your weapon ("the affair"...the sword you have hanging over his head) that means you'd have to have a relationship you don't understand, don't know how to do, don't know if you can do it, haven't seen it yourself, and don't know WHAT to expect!!

Highwood. You wanted him to be brave and stand up for you, right? Show him what courage looks like and stand up for him. Have the guts to give it your ALL and put "the weapon" down and try something new.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> Highwood~
> 
> You know how you look back at your husband's affair, and it just makes you *SO ANGRY?* :FIREdevil: And you know, how he said at the time "It just happened" and "I couldn't control myself" as a way of justifying his bad choices? And now (with hindsight) you think something like: "*YEAH RIGHT!!* * You had a million chances to stop yourself and you purposely chose not to!! At any time you could have made the decision to think of me and exert some self-control, and you didn't. You KNEW you were deeply hurting me, and my pain didn't stop you!"* issed: Right?
> 
> ...


Highwood. "putting the weapon down" is the single most difficult and the single most productive thing you will ever do in R. I too had a less than desirable childhood and Like you I am comfortable with anger. So when I say "put down your weapon" as AC said, I dont say it without understanding what Im asking. It took me spending weeks alone in the bathroom floor in the dark at 3am and writhing in pain to realize that what I was doing - SUCKED. He was miserable(his own doing yes but misery is misery) and I was getting more and more so. We were both losing weight like mad, completely unable to sleep or even smile. NOTHING made me happy even for a moment. Then it hit me. HE is still controlling everything. Just like he did during his A. So now its me or HER. I have to start looking like that girl he loved the day he married me and less like cruella deville. Absolutely, I was driven there BUT remaining there was MY choice. SOOOO when he went back to work(where OW is) I decided "this is a war Im not gonna lose." I put on my big girl panties, showered, fixed my hair,put on makeup and got dressed and packed his lunch with a smile. I hugged him and made him FEEL it. I kissed him like I meant it. When he got home, dinner on the table and a smile on my face and open arms. "how was your day, babe?" Then come bedtime.....well I left an impression there too. Next day, repeat. See, I knew I couldnt be the nagging shrew or she would start looking pretty damned good. If I wanted to be with him, I was gonna have to fight for it. And sometimes, ALOT of times that meant going to the bathroom, crying my eyes out, and coming back to where he was and at least being decent. And forcing myself to be who I wanted to be. Its not an easy thing. It would have been easier to choke the life out of him BUT I wanted my marriage soooooo I had to dig deep and prove to him and myself that I am in control of my part. The more I gave - the more he gave. 

I hope this helps. CTU


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## LeighRichwood (Mar 31, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> If I wanted to be with him, I was gonna have to fight for it. And sometimes, ALOT of times that meant going to the bathroom, crying my eyes out, and coming back to where he was and at least being decent. And forcing myself to be who I wanted to be. Its not an easy thing. It would have been easier to choke the life out of him BUT I wanted my marriage soooooo I had to dig deep and prove to him and myself that I am in control of my part. The more I gave - the more he gave.


I had the same experience. Bottom line - the more I gave, the more he gave. I think this is very important.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

:iagree: :iagree: 

I agree with both of the lady-posters above. Part of what *I* had to learn was "how to do anger" From what I had witnessed (both from my parents and from my abusive H) was either to stuff anger and pretend everything was fine when it wasn't....OR to have anger explode and be red, hot destructive lava. I didn't know anything else! 

Soooo...when I got the proof of my H's affair (she left an intimate in the hotel room, and since we had done some computer work in the hotel...and since they registered as Mr. and Mrs.... why they mailed the intimate to me!) I walked into our office--the office of the business we had spent years building together--and slapped him across the face so hard his glasses flew off and broke!!! 

Now I don't think anyone in the world thinks he didn't deserve it. After all, we all know that adultery means months of looking me in the eye and telling me I was nuts or jealous, and nothing was going on. Nonetheless, I physically assaulted him, and he called the police. I went outside the office and sat (peacefully) on the steps waiting for the police. I told them that yep I had slapped him--put up absolutely no resistance whatsoever. They talked to him, he told 'em what had happened, and while driving me in both officers said they would have done the same thing but that they "had to" take me in because he was pressing charges. I totally got that--no worries. 

But you know what? I got an unexpected benefit from it. The judge was great and he could see I had no priors and that it was extenuating circumstances so he said if I finished an anger management course he would expunge the case. Shoot! I didn't think that *I* needed anger management! That was just silly!! HE needed it if anyone, not me!! LOL But I didn't want the record so I went...and that's where I learned about how to be angry without it turning into a world war. 

Now, I'm not suggesting you need anger management  No, but I do think it would be great for you to learn how to be angry and feel angry, but communicate it before it's a giant volcano of searing pain. There are times when it is reasonable to be angry--even times when it's reasonable bot be VERY, *VERY *angry!!--but there are also ways to express it that are beneficial to the marriage and to the couple because it builds honesty and intimacy.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

LeighRichwood said:


> I had the same experience. Bottom line - the more I gave, the more he gave. I think this is very important.


Sigh!

Why do you want to save a relationship in which the guy stabs you in the back by having an affair and then on top of it, you have to give more in order to save the marriage. 

Why are you advising that.

It does not even make sense. 

Your husband was basically dating another woman while married. You were not, so you were already giving more. I'm sure your husband isn't perfect. 

So please explain to me why all the counselors say the deceived spouse needs to give more to keep the cheater from cheating again or leaving the marriage. 

I am truly confused.

Personally, I think part of the problem is that too many people make excuses for the cheater when in reality they should be told unequivocally that what they did was wrong and disgusting. No excuses. 

Infidelity is emotional abuse of the worst kind.

Divorce was a choice as was counseling.


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## LeighRichwood (Mar 31, 2012)

Sara - I didn't have to give more than he gave. That's not what I said. I said that the more I gave, the more he gave. This was when we got to the recovery stage and I knew that he was committed to rebuilding our marriage. I didn't just give in on everything so I wouldn't end up divorced. There's much more to my story than that.

Before I decided that I wanted to work on our marriage I went through many stages. I never held back my anger, I just learned to express it so that I would actually be heard. If all I did was scream at him, he'd never get my message. He'd never know how much he'd hurt me. And yes, I do advise that people express anger in a way that will help them, not hurt them. It doesn't matter if you're getting divorced or staying married, how you express your anger is important.

Divorce was definitely an option - one I considered very seriously. We also went to counseling - together and individually. And, I made no excuses for him at all. If you read more of my posts, I clearly say that the cheater is 100% responsible for the affair. Every time. There's no gray area there. However, I'm responsible for my part in why my marriage wasn't perfect. You're absolutely right that my husband isn't perfect. He never will be. I'm not perfect and never will be. I didn't marry a perfect man that at some point turned imperfect and decided to have an affair.

Please understand that I'm not giving more to keep him in the marriage or keep him from cheating. That's not the deal at all. He's there because he wants to be. The reason I give more is so that I can make him happy. When he is happy he makes me happy. It's what people do for each other when they care for each other. It's about showing him my love. That's a big part of what marriage is.

And just for the record, my husband was told more than once that what he did was wrong and disgusting and there were no excuses allowed. Before we got to the decision to stay married, there were many things I did to hold him accountable and confront his behavior and bad decisions.

Even though I did have other choices that I could have made, I chose to stay in my marriage and work it out. It was the most difficult decision I've ever made in my life. It has been some of the hardest work I've ever done in my life. It has been the biggest triumph and accomplishment in my life. I'm so happy that I didn't just walk away because my husband had an affair. I am one of the few who believe that not every cheater is a low-life piece of garbage that needs to be thrown out. Some of them are, but not all. My marriage today is happy and full. I feel loved, cherished, and appreciated. If I'd chosen to walk away I most likely wouldn't have that today with someone else. It was a risk, but I'm glad I took that risk. 

I know that many people wouldn't or couldn't do what I did. That's okay because every person must live with their own decisions. I don't apologize for my decisions or for the methods I used to get me here.


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## LeighRichwood (Mar 31, 2012)

I just read your post again, Sara, and you ask why all counselors say that the deceived spouse has to give more. In our case, that's not the advice we got at all. Our counselor gave both of us the advice to treat each other well and to give the way we know that the other wants to receive. We did much work about learning what kinds of things each of us appreciates the most from the other. What I found was that when I did give more he recognized it, was happy about it, thankful for it, and in turn he gave me back more. The way it worked was that each of us became more invested in each other by the way we treated each other and showed love.

I believe that because I chose to stay married to him, I owe him the same investment into our marriage as if he had never cheated. If I give him less, then I end up with less. I've completely forgiven him, but that doesn't mean that he gets to use boundaries only when it suits him or that he doesn't have to be transparent. Because of the affair, many safeguards are now in place that weren't there before.

I hope that clarifies a little more about the giving thing.


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## ilovechocolate (Jan 16, 2012)

It s our anniversary next week - went looking for a card for H with my daughter . All I was met with was a bank of cards "To my wonderful Husband" or "With all my love" and I just looked at them and felt empty. Managed to find one in the end with "Happy Anniversary Husband"


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

LeighRichwood said:


> I just read your post again, Sara, and you ask why all counselors say that the deceived spouse has to give more. In our case, that's not the advice we got at all. Our counselor gave both of us the advice to treat each other well and to give the way we know that the other wants to receive. We did much work about learning what kinds of things each of us appreciates the most from the other. What I found was that when I did give more he recognized it, was happy about it, thankful for it, and in turn he gave me back more. The way it worked was that each of us became more invested in each other by the way we treated each other and showed love.
> 
> I believe that because I chose to stay married to him, I owe him the same investment into our marriage as if he had never cheated. If I give him less, then I end up with less. I've completely forgiven him, but that doesn't mean that he gets to use boundaries only when it suits him or that he doesn't have to be transparent. Because of the affair, many safeguards are now in place that weren't there before.
> 
> I hope that clarifies a little more about the giving thing.


Hi Leigh:

Thank you for your kind response. I was obviously triggered by your post. 

I do believe some marriages can work out and some men are truly remorseful. Your husband was doing all the right things, so obviously he is one. 

My own cheater spouse complained about going to counseling and was still doing things that were hurtful. He hates counseling because they are forcing him to focus on his own flaws. He hates that. He was a spoiled only child whose parents worshipped and adored him and spoke to him as if he were a recalcitrant 4 your old even though he was in his 50s. 

The counselors have stated that he is unhappy with his life and is taking it out on me. 

I am letting him go so he can find some other woman to take things out on. 

But your husband does sound like he did the heavy lifting.


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## LeighRichwood (Mar 31, 2012)

Sara, my situation was up and down for a while. My husband didn't do the right things to start with. He broke NC twice. I was about to file for divorce when he started turning around. My husband did do the work to recover, but it took a while for us to get there. 

I'm really sorry your husband isn't willing to do the work for your marriage. It's sad that so many parents send their kids into the world to be adults without teaching them the skills to survive difficulties and disappointments. I imagine for an only child who was coddled, it's a huge surprise to find out that everyone else isn't putting them on a pedestal. In your husband's case, the affair could have been a way to find someone new who would adore him.

People search their whole lives for a way to feel special and important. Some just need it on a bigger scale than others. Parents can create that need in a child without even realizing that's what their doing. At some point though, the adult child is responsible for getting straightened out, behaving appropriately, making good decisions, and understanding how they were raised affects who they are. Many don't make it there.


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## LeighRichwood (Mar 31, 2012)

ilovechocolate said:


> It s our anniversary next week - went looking for a card for H with my daughter . All I was met with was a bank of cards "To my wonderful Husband" or "With all my love" and I just looked at them and felt empty. Managed to find one in the end with "Happy Anniversary Husband"


I think this is the hardest part of that first anniversary. I ended up giving my husband a card that was blank inside that I wrote happy anniversary inside. It was painful to read some of the sweet anniversary cards or even the funny ones knowing that they just didn't apply to us.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Thanks for the awesome advice! So H came home after work, his battery was low on his phone and as he works in a shop he was unable to read the text until he was leaving work and was able to charge it up. He told me that I did not have to apologize that he brought this pain to me and he is the one that should be apologizing not me. I got the impression that he was pleased about the text.

So regardless it was a good calm night. I felt so much better and thought yes I have to put myself out once in a while.

I also did alot of thinking last night in bed and thought I am comfortable with anger because it does make me feel like I am one up..so when I am berating him it is like a parent berating a child for doing something wrong and I thought I can't do that.

He has suffered consequences, he is embarrassed in front of our son and his family over this. I can't keep putting the knife in and twisting it again and again.

I also have more control over the situation than I realize and that I gave his OW way more power than she deserved. Me spewing venomous words about her is not the impression I want to emit. I do not know this person she does not know me....can I logically expect her to have some kind of empathy for me and to do the right thing..why would she care. I found myself changing my thinking about her instead of being angry feel sorry for her..she is living in a country with no opportunity and she grew up in a third world country so I do not know what her background/experiences were. She was clinging to some online relationship in hopes of it bringing her a better life....as well she probably realized that if she came over here due to the situation that she would never be welcomed by his family and his son. H grew up in a family that has pretty strong morals this is not accepted.


In regards to what Sara said I get her point. However I kind of like Dr. Laura and she always says that women do control the house hold..basically if mama is happy everyone is happy and she said men are easy to please they want to know that their woman is hot for them and appreciates them and they will in turn bust their butt for their woman. That is something that I was not doing prior to H's EA...I did not make him feel appreciated or loved all that often..I think he often felt like he was more of a bank machine. He works his ass off for our family and even though I always thought it I never vocalized it to him. So I definently did contribute in certain ways to our marriages decline thru the years.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

LeighRichwood said:


> In your husband's case, the affair could have been a way to find someone new who would adore him.
> 
> People search their whole lives for a way to feel special and important. Some just need it on a bigger scale than others.


Leigh:

If that is your photograph you are adorable.

In any case, you hit the nail on the head. My cheater husband even mentioned this to me. The feeling of being adored by her was a huge part of the attraction. 

Her emails and texts, read like a teenage romance novel.

My husband even admits he knew she was scum because she is a serial cheater, and he knew her flattery was phony, yet he liked it. 

He also admitted that she acknowledged that her husband was a sweetheart who treated her like a queen but that she is simply no longer physically attracted to him. The sex with him was routine, beyond boring, she whined.

She also had maids and cooks and a nanny, so she complained of having nothing to do all day and being bored because poor hubby worked too much. Still, my husband said he saw them together always on the weekends they were not together, and she looked happy. This suggests she is rewriting the marital history to dissuade herself of any guilt.

My husband told several counselors that I am intellectual but she was fun. 

He used to like the fact that I was intellectual and personally, I still think I am fun and know others who tell me unsolicited that I am. Sigh! 

So, the part about me not being fun was a rewrite.

With that said, I am not perfect, but neither is he. Who is?

Thanks again.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

highwood said:


> Thanks for the awesome advice! So H came home after work, his battery was low on his phone and as he works in a shop he was unable to read the text until he was leaving work and was able to charge it up. He told me that I did not have to apologize that he brought this pain to me and he is the one that should be apologizing not me. I got the impression that he was pleased about the text.
> 
> So regardless it was a good calm night. I felt so much better and thought yes I have to put myself out once in a while.
> 
> ...


Awesome Highwood. Thats a really positive step. Just remember sometimes its one step forward and two steps back. You took a HUGE leap. It sounds like he really responded well. Yay! Keep giving as much as you can and hopefully he will too. This is a process. But remember, your marriage is on the line so if you want it you gotta fight like a baracuda(with a halo) to keep it.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

highwood said:


> In regards to what Sara said I get her point. However I kind of like Dr. Laura and she always says that women do control the house hold..basically if mama is happy everyone is happy and she said men are easy to please they want to know that their woman is hot for them and appreciates them and they will in turn bust their butt for their woman. That is something that I was not doing prior to H's EA...I did not make him feel appreciated or loved all that often..I think he often felt like he was more of a bank machine. He works his ass off for our family and even though I always thought it I never vocalized it to him. So I definently did contribute in certain ways to our marriages decline thru the years.


I don't like Dr. Laura's philosophy and I have heard she receives a lot of complaints about women needing to make the husbands feel special and loved. 

Many psychiatrists believe that "specialness" door needs to swing both ways for a strong marriage. 

If one spouse is doing all the things that make someone feel special it creates an imbalance. 

Most people who cheat are neglecting their primary relationship. Treating them more special after the affair reinforces this bad behavior by rewarding it, IMO. 

Both spouses need to change to improve things, not one. 

BTW: I did always thank my husband for being a good provider and frequently told Him I loved the way his mind always saw the big picture. 

Still, I pulled my weight financially. I never saw him as a bank machine. 

He always claimed he liked a woman who was equal to him, and he enjoyed the fact that I contributed start up capital and time and energy to our various businesses. 

He always proudly boasted we were a team. He always claimed he liked intelligent, independent woman and hated dimwits.

I also did far more on the home front than he did. I was okay with that, and so was he. 

He also always hated, prissy, fussy, high maintenance woman, but the OW is all that and worse.

I filed for divorce because I don't feel like kissing my husband's ass and rewarding him for cheating on me. To my surprise, he does not want the divorce. 

Go figure.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

LeighRichwood said:


> Sara, my situation was up and down for a while. My husband didn't do the right things to start with. He broke NC twice. I was about to file for divorce when he started turning around. My husband did do the work to recover, but it took a while for us to get there.
> 
> I'm really sorry your husband isn't willing to do the work for your marriage. It's sad that so many parents send their kids into the world to be adults without teaching them the skills to survive difficulties and disappointments. I imagine for an only child who was coddled, it's a huge surprise to find out that everyone else isn't putting them on a pedestal. In your husband's case, the affair could have been a way to find someone new who would adore him.
> 
> People search their whole lives for a way to feel special and important. Some just need it on a bigger scale than others. Parents can create that need in a child without even realizing that's what their doing. At some point though, the adult child is responsible for getting straightened out, behaving appropriately, making good decisions, and understanding how they were raised affects who they are. Many don't make it there.


This sounds sooo much like our scenerio. It took my H a while to come out of the fog and start doing the right thing. But once I saw just a glimmer of the man I married finally, It inspired me to try and find 'the rest of him'. Once that decision was made and NC was established he came around totally. But I had to give more than I was comfortable giving(thanks to someone explaining the difference in just being uncomfortable in giving it and feeling it wasnt right to give it). Giving things you are uncomfortable giving like saying "I love you" first maybe is an example of doing something anyway because its 'right' even if its painful to say at the time. Its just as painful for your spouse that you DONT say it. So in this instance, I gave more than I was comfortable giving but when I did he openend up more than ever b/c he knew what it took for me to do that given the shape I was in. 

This is what you did. You did something you were uncomfortable with to better your situation. To show him you care. AND he gave back. WIN, WIN!:smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> But I had to give more than I was comfortable giving(thanks to someone explaining the difference in just being uncomfortable in giving it and feeling it wasnt right to give it). Giving things you are uncomfortable giving like saying "I love you" first maybe is an example of doing something anyway because its 'right' even if its painful to say at the time. Its just as painful for your spouse that you DONT say it. So in this instance, I gave more than I was comfortable giving but when I did he openend up more than ever b/c he knew what it took for me to do that given the shape I was in.
> 
> This is what you did. You did something you were uncomfortable with to better your situation. To show him you care. AND he gave back. WIN, WIN!:smthumbup::smthumbup:


I am glad your husband is also doing the heavy lifting. Good luck to you. You will obviously be among the small number of survivors whose marriage actually improves.

For my part, after the first Dday. I was the one trying harder. My cheater husband even admitted this to the counselor. He also admitted being emotionally abusive to me after Dday. 

I was the first to say I love you, and said it far more often than he. 

One of his complaints was I wouldn't ride on his motorcycle. So I started doing that. Another was that I wouldn't let him spend money on frivolous things. So, let him buy an overpriced third car that we do not need and most people refer to as garage art. 

So, doing these things does not guarantee that a cheater spouse will appreciate them. 

In fact, in some cases, IMO, it only empowers them. 

BTW: Filing for a divorce is not a 180 for me. It is the real thing. I am fed up. I am not chattel and I am not going to be treated like such. 

I don't deserve it. No one does. He always had the option to divorce me, if I am such a terrible wife. He never prior voiced any complaints about me, and misled me to believe he was happy.

The truth is he knows, i was a good wife. Yes we had problems after 20 years such as staleness and such, but who doesn't.

Lastly, I see too many stories here in which the spouse cheated once, behaved for awhile and than ten years later cheats again. 

Will pampering them prevent that second round of cheating? Be honest with yourself. If you are rewarded for doing something immoral, what is the impetus to stop


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> I don't like Dr. Laura's philosophy and I have heard she receives a lot of complaints about women needing to make the husbands feel special and loved.
> 
> Many psychiatrists believe that "specialness" door needs to swing both ways for a strong marriage.


Having read a few of her books, I think she is misinterpreted. I think you see the effects of women NOT thinking their husband is special every day on CWI. Right now there is a poor fellow who moved out of the house and is letting his wife and kids stay there while she continues to carry on her affair. (Openly to her husband, privately to everyone else.) 

As you say, it's a balance. Some men are fearful of being "controlling" and let women abuse them. But obviously throughout history the pendulum very much swung the other way.

I read a column recently that said that 92% of Americans support fidelity in the marriage, which I thought was great. It could be higher, but it's good to see. The author pointed out that in the 1800's there was an epidemic of STDs amongst middle-class housewives and of course it was kept very much a secret while they protected their cheating husbands. They had no recourse.

But most women today have plenty of recourse and the law protects them. I think there needs to be recognition that abuse is an equal opportunity sport and that it takes many forms, violence only being the most overt.

Sara8, I think you are a case in point that some spouses take all your kindness and p*ss all over it. But my cheating husband was not that, I was the one who was borderline emotionally abusing him. Like Leigh I am in no way responsible for my husband's stupid choice, and my husband had to do a lot of heavy lifting to prove he was worth staying for, but I am at least 80% responsible for our marriage being vulnerable. I had to fix not just how I was treating my husband but I also had to fix myself.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I have been with my H for 24 years..so to throw that away on bad choices I can't..he has never remotely done anything like this before.

Our marriage was complacent and I was to blame for a good part of that..why you ask? He was always more affectionate I was not comfortable with affection..this was frustrating for him. He would want to hold hands I was not comfortable doing that. 

He would try and talk to me about these issues..I would brush it under the rug. He felt at times that he couldn't even touch me because I pulled away...I think for me with how I grew up in a home with no affection and when I had my son I became the mother and didn't really see myself for a long time as nothing more than that. I think in my case even though I appreciated him I never vocalized it...what I meant by a bank machine was that even though I now work full time and have for at least 6 years prior to that it was part time...was that he makes great money in the oilfield primarily by working his butt off overseas sometimes in crap conditions..and he started to feel that I liked it better when he was away from home then when he was at home. The first MC we had last fall said she hears that often from men who work away from home..that their wives get into a routine then when they come home it is almost like the man is an intruder. So I think what was happening with H is that he was bringing home great money but was starting to feel like maybe it wasn't being appreciated as much..he is the one that has always paid the mortgage, paid for our retirement fund, paid for the vehicles, etc. etc.

So just in my case, I have to look at what I was doing in the marriage..and the reason I like Dr. Laura is she says that some words of appreciation and loving gestures will make a man feel like a million bucks and he in turn will bend over backwards to make his lady happy. I think that is true..my h has done a great job of supporting us and he probably felt like it was not being appreciated...doens't mean that I did n't do my fair share however he was the one having to leave home ,etc. H too when I mentioend in counselling that I would have liked him to help out more by cleaning up after supper has stepped up to the plate since then.

SO basically what I am saying that in my case I was a less than perfect wife and chose to brush his concerns under the rug and he became unhappy because of it..he didn't go out looking for an EA however when he met this person and she was all flattering and flirty with him...it was hard to resist espeically when I was not like that for many years. NOt saying what he did was right because he and I both know it was dead wrong but it happened and we have to learn from it.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> Sara8, I think you are a case in point that some spouses take all your kindness and p*ss all over it.
> 
> But my cheating husband was not that, I was the one who was borderline emotionally abusing him.
> 
> ...


Well thank you for your honesty. Yes, being abusive emotionally can be very harmful. 

However, not all spouses, male or female, who have been cheated on have been emotionally abusive. 

They may have withdrawn in response to the spouses abuse, but they still don't cheat. 

Shirley Glass, talks about this issue in her books. 

She claims that in her extensive experience and in talking to other psychologists and psychiatrists, to often the cheating partner is the one who is not giving enough in the marriage. They are also the ones with unrealistic expectations of the marriage.

The counselors have all mentioned that my husband seems to have a lot of narcissistic traits, as do many cheaters. 

Also, Iheartlife, how were you borderline abusive? I am curious as a way to gain perspective of what you mean.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> Having read a few of her books, I think she is misinterpreted. I think you see the effects of women NOT thinking their husband is special every day on CWI. Right now there is a poor fellow who moved out of the house and is letting his wife and kids stay there while she continues to carry on her affair. (Openly to her husband, privately to everyone else.)
> 
> As you say, it's a balance. Some men are fearful of being "controlling" and let women abuse them. But obviously throughout history the pendulum very much swung the other way.
> 
> ...


Absolutely...I am not a 1950s kind of woman..one thing my husband has always done is even when I was a stay at home mom he always respected my opinion about finances and should we buy this or what should we invest in. I have handled our finances for many many years..he just wants to know how much do we have in this account, etc. etc. He respects and listens to my opinion about money, investments, etc. always has.

I think that Dr. Laura isn't saying bend over backwards for your man and expect nothing..she means don't be a naggy ***** and let yourself go and then expect your man to be happy to come home. She says be pleasant to him, , make love willingly, have fun, appreciate him and then he will walk over hot coals for you.

Doesn't mean that the some guys will not act like jerks but the majority hopefully will be decent guys.

MY Sil wants to be treated like a queen and wanted to spend her days shopping and criticized her husband for not making enough money to support the family. He works his ass of in construction. She had no desire to work and wanted the glamerous housewife style that her sister who is married to a doctor has...ironically they have a crap marriage. He told us he is only stayin for his young daughter who is 11 now. They haven't had sex in over a year and he sleeps on the couch I wonder why! My BIL is a good decent hard working guy and he is with this wanna be princess.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Sara you are right..some guys are just *******s and it doesn't matter how good you treat them..they are just looking for soemthing else.

In my case thought that was not the case..I am married to a decent hard working guy who I know and he knows I did not appreciate...I think because he is a nice guy a part of me thought I could treat him coldly or be *****y whenever I felt like it for no reason and he would put up with it.

I had a huge wake up call when DD#1 happened and I realized I have to get my butt in gear if I want to keep this guy in my life.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> I am glad your husband is also doing the heavy lifting. Good luck to you. You will obviously be among the small number of survivors whose marriage actually improves.
> 
> For my part, after the first Dday. I was the one trying harder. My cheater husband even admitted this to the counselor. He also admitted being emotionally abusive to me after Dday.
> 
> ...


Sara, I am so sorry to hear your story. He doesnt sound like he deserved you and Im glad youre moving on. You are right when you say giving more doesnt guarantee your WS will appreciate you. Thats a fact. I totally understand how you can see it the way you do. As rewarding his behavior. First let me say that he has also paid a VERY hefty price for what he has done. I could sit here and describe the depth and degree to which he has suffered and I have described alot of it in detail in my thread and wont hijack Highwood to go into my story that deeply. Let me just say He has paid dearly. He is still paying dearly. Infidelity is the gift that keeps on giving. So I had a choice rather to accept that he is truly remorseful and indeed a flawed man or to say "off with your head you piece of sh*t" and D him. So to address your statement of pampering him- Im not pampering him, Im treating him like I want to be treated. Im treating him like my husband. He is in NO way confused about where I stand about the A. I dont accept ANY responsibilty for it, AT ALL. I do however, accept the fact that as a wife, I have some improvements to make and since I have made the choice to R, its my obligation to make those improvements just as he has improvements and its his obligation to make his. IF he doesnt R will be unsuccessful. If I dont the same is possible. So since I chose to stay I will NOT HALF A$$ it. 

As far as down the road some cheat again. Well thats true. But I could get a new guy and get the same DAMNED thing and not have nearly the connection I have with my H.Yes he broke my heart. He betrayed me. We are trying to fix that and move forward. But what I do know is He can finish my sentences. He knows my fears. He loves our kids. He is a hard worker. He has sacrificed his career, his relationship with his family and his own sense of security to prove his remorse. All of those things are necessary b/c of his own actions. And NO ONE including me is paying a bigger price for what he did. THATS why Im with him. Because we have 15 years prior to this A that he was my rock. He moved states to be with me. He is a good man that made a HORRIBLE CHOICE.

Good luck to you. I hope you find peace.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

highwood said:


> Our marriage was complacent and I was to blame for a good part of that..why you ask? He was always more affectionate I was not comfortable with affection..this was frustrating for him. He would want to hold hands I was not comfortable doing that.
> 
> ........
> SO basically what I am saying that in my case I was a less than perfect wife and chose to brush his concerns under the rug and he became unhappy because of it..he didn't go out looking for an EA however when he met this person and she was all flattering and flirty with him...it was hard to resist espeically when I was not like that for many years. NOt saying what he did was right because he and I both know it was dead wrong but it happened and we have to learn from it.


Highwood:

Your husband is one lucky SOB. 

I am sure you were withdrawing because he was doing something to contribute to your withdrawal. 

I am no shrink, but these things do not occur in a vacuum. Both contributed.

Cheating is not the solution. It causes long term damage to the deceived spouse. It causes problems than can never be repaired. All prior problems were repairable.

I don't depend on my husband financially. I felt that my husband was neglecting me to some degree with too many men's trips and boy's night's out but I wanted him to be with his male friends it that is what he needed. I am sure I withdrew because of that. But that could have been fixed with the MC I asked for. 

Also, yes, it is nice when someone is fun and flirty and gives you attention. Yes, it makes you feel good. But when the conversation turns sexual time to vamoose.

I never even engaged in flirtatious conversations because I knew they would go nowhere good, ever prior to the sex aspect being dragged in. 

I had plenty of opportunity as I am sure you did to and all other BS's here.

I also don't have male friends that I socialize with alone, because through the years, when single, I learned that you can't go to dinner and a movie with a guy alone and think he does not want more than friendship.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Yesterday for me when I thought about how sending him that text apologizing and telling him I loved him when I realized how vulnerable I felt doing that..like in a strange way I was lowering myself and instead he should be gravelling to me was kind of a wake up call.. it made me realize that he has been craving that kind of attention from me for years and instead I chose for a few years at least to play the cool card because it protected me somehow..like how stupid is that on my part. You know what if I put it out there and in the end the marriage doesn't work at least I will not have any regrets.

The MC told me that the reason I want to start fights and get angry is that it allowed me to keep him at a distance...and I thought there is probably something to that. I think it is true that anger is so much easier for me than being loving..I feel in control when I am angry where as when I am loving I feel vulnerable and exposed.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Honestly Sara he did not contribute to my withdrawing..I think with my background..growing up in a home where my parents had an unhappy marriage. My dad openly cheated on my mom for years and years with different women...

I remember my mom trying to be affectionate to my dad and my dad rebuffing her..he was not interested in having a family. He was not a family type guy we were more like a burden to him. No affection, etc.

I think that played a huge impact on me..even though I don't think it subconsciously it did. I think the anger I had for my dad and how he was I took forth into my marriage.

The MC said that as well the fact that my H is 7 years older than me and we met and became serious when I was only 19 played a role too in that I had no other relationships to compare to as well no real growth as an adult person on my own.

I remember one time about 2 years ago and H reached out and kind of touched my arm while we were in bed watching tv and I jerked my arm away for no reason and he made a comment about how it is like he can't even touch me, like I was repulsed by him.... I had a huge clue about how unhappy he was and I chose to ignore it.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

I believe you Highwood:

YOu sound insightful and I trust your good judgement regarding your own situation. 

Yes. Anger can be a shield and yes, you can sometimes transfer anger from a father to a spouse. 

It is good that you realize what you were doing. 

I do see that your husband is trying, based on your posts. 

I am willing to wage you and he and can'ttrusthim and her spouse will be the success stories we hope for and read about all the time.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

HW, That betrayed spouse anger is overwhelming sometimes. I was really having a hard time in R because we were working on marriage issues also besides the cheating----anyway, I wasn't able to do it.

We had to make 2 nights a week instead of 1. On Weds., its sex night---we talk about sex only, which includes the betrayal. We also talk about pornography, monogamy, social norms regarding morality, what it was like growing up, etc. But all related to sex. This has helped immeasurably, because, there is a place for it, a time for it. I have cried every time we have had this session. 

On Sundays, its general MC day. We talk about the marriage. We do communication exercises and read books together, talk about our goals and work on honing out a real budget for our house to run smoothly (something I have been wanting for a long time!) and LOTS of other things. But we don't talk about sex. If something comes up we write a note in our book to deal with it the following Weds.There is very little crying on Sundays. I feel happier and have much less anxiety.

I know it is hard to move forward when the betrayal keeps you locked in and afraid. But don't lose hope. Coming to this arrangement with my H was hard and took time. Who knows if it will work? But it fixed a lot of what was in my way.

Good Luck.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Thanks Sara! Even though I know EA's tend to be worse than PA's H's EA never went to that point...

NOt sure if you are aware but there is another dimension to my story..H went on antidepressants about 3 years ago..he was stressed about work as well unhappy in his marriage and the lack of communciation we had...unbeknowst to him and his doctor his sex drive went away and he suffered from impotence. He went to the doctor and the dr. did not put two and two together and just gave him Viagra..did not work. Viagra only works if you have the desire to have sex which the SSRIs took away from him.

I was not aware of any of this..(shows you that our sex life was in the toilet to not be aware that he was having trouble with drive and erections)...we had sex maybe 2x a year. Basically what SSRIs do is for alot of people on them..(they call them marriage killers for a reason), is cause you to think you have no romantic feelings for your spouse because you have no interest in sex. So people think they are falling out of love with their spouse.

So when he was overseas and met his OW he was still on these pills so even though he was flattered and was somewhat attracted to her..he never felt any sexual desire for her (thank god!)...he was kind of concerned about that but thought maybe it was his age (50) etc. So nothing physical even a kiss happened..he had no desire to do anything like that. So when he got back after two months overseas he was still on the pills but kept in contact with her.

So fast forward to December 2011..he is being weaned off of the pills and eventually close to Christmas is no longer on them. However thru Christmas up until present the sex drive and impotence continues (called Post SSRI sexual dysfunction) is what it is called. Nothing you can do about it but wait it out....

So even though he lied from October (DD#1) until April that he was not keeping in contact with OW he was...however not that there is any excuses but for a man it is highly traumatic to not have any (I mean 0% desire for sex) especially for a high sex drive guy that he was previous to the pills. Still no excuse but I imagine for him it was painful emotionally...

So he after some soul searching concluded after DD#2 that the reason he was compelled to keep in contact with his OW because it was safe (no way they were going to see each other physically) and that he did not have to "prove" (i..e have sex) with her that he was attracted to her. Plus he could online "pretend" that he was still a hot red blooded man.....Where as with me, his wife living in the same house with him kind of wouldn't fly...
It is humilating for him espeically when you have a wife who is coming onto you and ready to go and you can't do nothing about it...he said because of these SSRis that with me he couldnt act like a man in that way with me and it was highly embarrasing. 

Not being a guy I don't get the full impact but I understand that for a man especially with me being 7 years younger and at 43 at my sexual peak..kind of bad timing right now which makes it even worse.


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## LeighRichwood (Mar 31, 2012)

Highwood - I'm so glad you've been able to control the anger and look at your point of view objectively since yesterday. I know it's hard to do this, but I know you see the value of making these changes.

I hope you know you can get the encouragement to keep it going forward and not lose ground. I agree that 24 years is alot to throw away unless you're rock solid sure it needs to be thrown out.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

highwood said:


> So he after some soul searching concluded after DD#2 that the reason he was compelled to keep in contact with his OW because it was safe (no way they were going to see each other physically) and that he did not have to "prove" (i..e have sex) with her that he was attracted to her. Plus he could online "pretend" that he was still a hot red blooded man.....Where as with me, his wife living in the same house with him kind of wouldn't fly...
> It is humilating for him espeically when you have a wife who is coming onto you and ready to go and you can't do nothing about it...he said because of these SSRis that with me he couldnt act like a man in that way with me and it was highly embarrasing.
> 
> Not being a guy I don't get the full impact but I understand that for a man especially with me being 7 years younger and at 43 at my sexual peak..kind of bad timing right now which makes it even worse.


Highwood:

Yes. Through this experience I have learned that sometimes, but not always, if a man is experiencing sexual dysfunction they will cheat.

I guess this is also part of the mid life crisis thing. They feel their sexuality waning and get scared and need to prove they still have it. 

If you feel your husband has enough good qualities to continue fighting for the marriage, than trust your gut. 

Yes, if your husband is an otherwise good husband, then don't throw away 24 years for one transgression. 

One silver lining in my husband's affair, is I started to revaluate the giver taker ratio. My husband is definitely the bigger taker. That is not just my opinion, either, all the counselors I have been too have mentioned my husband being somewhat narcissistic and over indulged as a child. 

I know he needs to feel special, but so do I.


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## LeighRichwood (Mar 31, 2012)

One thing I notice about this thread and the people posting here -

The tone is different than in some of the other threads. This is actually refreshing to have some back and forth but with betrayed spouses taking responsibility for their own part in the state of their marriage before the affair. I see this lacking in so many other threads.

The other thing I get so worn out with is the idea that every cheater is a low-life bottom feeding so and so. Every one of them should be thrown out like garbage. Any person who decides to stay with someone who cheated on them is a beat down shell of a human being and should get a backbone to stand up for themselves.

I admit to being a little defensive and sensitive about the fact that it took my marriage a while to recover and I didn't file for divorce to move things along. I wanted my marriage, saw value in my husband despite his failing, and faught for what I believed in. It seems like to many people who have been cheated on, this isn't a positive thing. 

From experience I can tell you that fighting for a marriage is not an activity for the weak or timid. 

I think there's a risk for people who are newbies to come here for sound advice and a little refuge and get blasted because they haven't kicked the cheater out yet. I feel bad for those people and feel that if they're using this board as the sole input to making a decision about how to handle their situation they're possibly going to make some big mistakes.

Granted, if you use a message board as your biggest source of advice for the big decisions, then maybe there are bigger issues there... 

I guess I'm saying all this to say thank you for this thread and the attitude here. I'm so encouraged that there are people who are self aware and take both blame and praise as it's deserved.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I agree Leigh..I would feel like a fraud if I came on here and said, no I was the perfect wife. Again not saying that is any excuse however from H's perspective...trying to communicate with me isn't the easiest because I tend to want to sweep it under the rug and hope it resolves it self. As well, if he feels that I have no desire to be affectionate with him...how does that affect his self esteem.

THis other person made him feel desirable by flattering him..every email she called him handsome, etc. That would be hard to walk away from when your own wife makes you feel like she has no romantic interest in you at all. Plus..when someone compliments you and makes you feel good instantly you like them...you think good thoughts about them. 

I have to be real here it would be easy for me to get caught up in woe is me I am the victim..my husband betrayed me but in my case..I cannot learn and grow from this unless I get real with myself.

Sara, that is the ironic thing about him cheating...I said to him jokingly that he is probably a rare guy that was cheating but had no sexual desire for the person he was cheating with...in his case it was the way she boosted his ego that made him keep coming back.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

But at the same time Leigh..I think I can also understand why some people choose to walk away...after DD#2 I considered that. Understand as well if it gets to a DD#3 and H knows this there will be no third chance..that would be it! As painful as it would be I couldn't keep doing this.....and to me if he is willing to risk his relationship with his adult son who is highly important to him because he needs his ego boosted..than he needs more help than what I can provide to him.

Especially if I am working my butt off trying to work on myself and help our marriage.


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## LeighRichwood (Mar 31, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> Sara, I am so sorry to hear your story. He doesnt sound like he deserved you and Im glad youre moving on. You are right when you say giving more doesnt guarantee your WS will appreciate you. Thats a fact. I totally understand how you can see it the way you do. As rewarding his behavior. First let me say that he has also paid a VERY hefty price for what he has done. I could sit here and describe the depth and degree to which he has suffered and I have described alot of it in detail in my thread and wont hijack Highwood to go into my story that deeply. Let me just say He has paid dearly. He is still paying dearly. Infidelity is the gift that keeps on giving. So I had a choice rather to accept that he is truly remorseful and indeed a flawed man or to say "off with your head you piece of sh*t" and D him. So to address your statement of pampering him- Im not pampering him, Im treating him like I want to be treated. Im treating him like my husband. He is in NO way confused about where I stand about the A. I dont accept ANY responsibilty for it, AT ALL. I do however, accept the fact that as a wife, I have some improvements to make and since I have made the choice to R, its my obligation to make those improvements just as he has improvements and its his obligation to make his. IF he doesnt R will be unsuccessful. If I dont the same is possible. So since I chose to stay I will NOT HALF A$$ it.
> 
> As far as down the road some cheat again. Well thats true. But I could get a new guy and get the same DAMNED thing and not have nearly the connection I have with my H.Yes he broke my heart. He betrayed me. We are trying to fix that and move forward. But what I do know is He can finish my sentences. He knows my fears. He loves our kids. He is a hard worker. He has sacrificed his career, his relationship with his family and his own sense of security to prove his remorse. All of those things are necessary b/c of his own actions. And NO ONE including me is paying a bigger price for what he did. THATS why Im with him. Because we have 15 years prior to this A that he was my rock. He moved states to be with me. He is a good man that made a HORRIBLE CHOICE.
> 
> Good luck to you. I hope you find peace.


Canttrustu - this states why I chose to work on recovery better than I could ever say it. I truly love my husband. He is the funniest man I know and he knows me better than anyone else in the world does. I also know that he truly loves me in return. 

He is also completely aware that there's no second chance. Another affair means divorce. I will not go through recovery again.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> I believe you Highwood:
> 
> YOu sound insightful and I trust your good judgement regarding your own situation.
> 
> ...


@Sara8

[/I] am willing to wage you and he and can'ttrusthim and her spouse will be the success stories we hope for and read about all the time. 


If you are referring to me-Thanks and I really hope so.


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## LeighRichwood (Mar 31, 2012)

I totally understand why some people choose to not work on the marriage. I thought at one point that I was going to go forward with divorce, too. 

I think that some cases it's the right thing to do. If my husband had been a jerk from the start and then had an affair, it would have been a no-brainer for me. 

I also think that some BS are too damaged to stay. I really do get that and don't think worse of anyone for the decisions they make. I just get tired of the "all cheaters are scumbags" mentality. My husband isn't a scumbag and he never was. That is an ultra-simplified point of view, I know.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Well thank you for your honesty. Yes, being abusive emotionally can be very harmful.
> 
> However, not all spouses, male or female, who have been cheated on have been emotionally abusive.
> 
> ...


I've seen you mention this about Shirley Glass before. It's perfectly true some of the time, but definitely not true all of the time.

While people in affairs behave in some very predictable ways, they all arrived at their affairs from different directions.

I think this thread is productive because you see both sides.

You have Sara8, whose husband is a selfish narcissist. That's not to say Sara8 is perfect, I'm sure she'd be the first person to admit that. But she can say with a fairly clear conscience that she did what she could to support her husband and the marriage and that his behavior is so out of left field that the core problems are pretty much inside him. Being kinder and more compassionate would probably just have amounted to enabling him to have more and more affairs.

Then you have Leigh and myself, we have a different situation going on. We both acknowledge at a bare minimum complacency in terms of protecting and caring for the marriage and that we didn't treat our husbands entirely the way a spouse deserves to be treated. We do not take any responsibility for our spouses' choices to enter an affair. But we can see that there are things that we can change about ourselves. So while our husbands had to do the heavy lifting of being properly remorseful and recommitting to the marriage, we also had things we could do differently.

This is a spectrum and people are going to fall at either end or somewhere in between.

On the plus side, the more you contributed to the vulnerability of the marriage, the more you can do to work toward a better marriage. There is more for you to change inside yourself. You don't feel quite as out of control over the situation as you might. On the down side, the more you contributed to the vulnerability of the marriage, the more likely you are to push your spouse out of the marriage and into someone else's arms from whence they might not return. Again, they are the cowards for choosing to end the marriage with an affair. But they aren't going to believe you when you say you're willing to change--or at least, it may take a long time for them to come around and realize that the affair was a hurtful way to try to rectify the situation.

When you didn't contribute much in the way of making the marriage vulnerable, well, on the plus side, you know your conscience is clear and you didn't cause the affair even indirectly. The downside is, the problems now lie wholly inside another person and they are entirely out of your control. Maybe they'll change and wake up to their hurtful ways--or maybe they won't.

---------------------------------------

In terms of what I did that was emotionally abusive--I started out from a sense of entitlement in life. I just had a general attitude of complaining, whining, venting, every chance I got. Id tended to use humor around friends (which is why I'm not socially isolated, lol) but around my husband all bets were off, especially if I was tired or under stress (which was a perpetual state for me due to my job plus my outlook on life).

Then we had two small kids close together. We were far from family and all my friends went back to work. I had to start from scratch in terms of a support network. Nothing that millions of other women haven't done before me, but I had to invest a lot of energy into the woe is me attitude, and you probably know I didn't have a lot of energy to spare in the first place. I was exhausted from lack of sleep. My husband travelled a lot and finances were tight.

I could enumerate his "sins" in terms of being a new dad and what he did and didn't do right. But the bottom line is, he was exhausted and under a lot of stress, too. He didn't have a lot of sympathy for me, nor I for him. So he chose to confide in a woman ten years younger, someone who worked where he did and who had a lot of the same interests (related to their work).

She married a man that she thought her parents would like. That man was in love with her and he also came from a wealthy and powerful family. I guess she thought he had it all, connections that would help her career, etc. But she didn't love him back.

My husband "saved" her because her husband was not very kind or empathetic, etc. She "saved" my husband because he could relate. But you can see that even just on paper they were not coming from the same positions. Over time, this became apparent to my husband which is why when I discovered the affair was ongoing, the most powerful feelings of infatuation had pretty much gone and he was able to just walk away.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

LeighRichwood said:


> The other thing I get so worn out with is the idea that every cheater is a low-life bottom feeding so and so. Every one of them should be thrown out like garbage. Any person who decides to stay with someone who cheated on them is a beat down shell of a human being and should get a backbone to stand up for themselves


Hi Leigh:

I had acquaintances who I knew prior who had affairs and I did not think they were low life scum simply for that. 

With that said, the OW is a low life scum no matter how nice she may be. :FIREdevil: :rant:

it's just human nature to feel that way. Right? '

I mean it's kind of normal to rant about low life scums after being betrayed financial, sexually, and emotionally.

I wouldn't take the rants too personally. A rant is just a way to vent. 

Nevertheless my husband is a low life scum just because I reserve the right to call him one.:bounce:

I don't necessarily feel that way about other people's wayward spouses, only mine. :FIREdevil:

Actually, I am well aware that my cheater spouse truly does have have a lot of nice qualities, but only if you are not his wife. 

So, in my book, henceforth and forever after the lap dance thing, 'cause he had his chance...... he's a low life scum and I don't see that opinion changing after the lap dance thing in the middle of our recovery.
:BoomSmilie_anim:

Also, I truly do not believe that everyone who chooses to stay with a spouse who had one affair is a shell of a human being. I stayed after finding out. 

Okay so i was a shell at that point, but i was recovering until the lap dance photo arrived. 

I'm just saying' there's a point where some people get fed up with pampering a bad boy. 

My husband is not a kid anymore.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Myself and H have wondered about too much damage as well....

The trust thing is the hardest part of it...but like your H mine is a good man. He is a hard working guy..he is one of those people that others meet and think yes, this is a nice guy! I think that was the appeal for the OW as well. I could see why she would be attracted to him.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

In terms of what I did that was emotionally abusive--I started out from a sense of entitlement in life. I just had a general attitude of complaining, whining, venting, every chance I got. Id tended to use humor around friends (which is why I'm not socially isolated, lol) but around my husband all bets were off, especially if I was tired or under stress (which was a perpetual state for me due to my job plus my outlook on life).

Same thing for me..I can be charming and pleasant and than with H at times, it was like whatever....he will love me no matter what! I am ashamed that I was like that at times...

Honestly I did not deserve his betrayal of me however he also did not deserve my treatment of him at times.

My sister mentioned to me last year that she noticed that at times when I talked to my H in front of others it sounded kind of *****y..I remember being embarrassed about that but it is probably true.


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## LeighRichwood (Mar 31, 2012)

Sara, in your case it sounds like you've made the right choice. One thing about improving ourselves and understanding our role in the breakdown of the relationship helps us get better for the next one if we choose to divorce. Also, if nothing else, you can use the information to become a better person. That's never, ever a bad thing.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

LeighRichwood said:


> One thing I notice about this thread and the people posting here -
> 
> The tone is different than in some of the other threads. This is actually refreshing to have some back and forth but with betrayed spouses taking responsibility for their own part in the state of their marriage before the affair. I see this lacking in so many other threads.
> 
> ...


I know what you're talking about in terms of tone.

But here is where that "cheaters suck" tone comes from. It comes from people who are allowing the cheating to continue, many times flaunted in their faces, while ineffectually wringing their hands.

Again, there's the spectrum I mentioned. Some of these people contributed a lot to the vulnerability of the marriage; some people didn't do much if anything. Some of these people's spouses are pathologically damaged people; others are reasonably mentally healthy but hate confrontation and turned to an affair out of cowardice.

I guess it comes down to whether you believe the affair has to end before you can work on the marriage.

Leigh, I know the affair continued for some time while you worked on your issues. My husband's affair also continued for quite a long time while I worked on mine. The difference is, you knew he was still in the affair; I did not.

But I can only speak for our situation; while I spent those years he was still in the affair changing myself, I did very little to change the marriage. After DD#2, I could see why that happened--he was making no effort to meet me halfway despite my internal changes, because he was still in the affair.

So I'm firmly in the camp that to work on the marriage, the affair has to end. We can sit around and aportion blame later. We can pay thousands for counseling fees LATER. But no one does the hard work of making a marriage better, or baring your soul to a therapist, while hanging on to an affair partner.

If cheaters would just up and file for divorce FIRST, we wouldn't be wasting our breath this way. The biggest dilemmas on this board come from the cake eaters who want it both ways. It can take some harsh tactics to flush these profoundly selfish people out. I count my husband with them because if I had spent just a few seconds verifying, I would have discovered he was still in contact and the affair would likely have ended not long after that discovery.

I don't feel ANY embarrassment over having chosen to reconcile with my husband, you shouldn't either, Leigh. There are some posters who have been burned badly. No one has ever given me a hard time for my choices and I've described my situation in many a thread.


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## LeighRichwood (Mar 31, 2012)

I see what you mean, Heart. I am actually proud of my courage to reconcile with my husband. It was bumpy, but worth it. When I look at him and know we're happy again, anything anyone says that's even a little negative doesn't matter to me.

I do agree that for reconciliation to work, the affair has to be over. I didn't realize it so much at the time I was dealing with it. I 100% agree with that now because that's how it worked for us. The true repair didn't start until he was no longer involved with the other woman.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

highwood said:


> Myself and H have wondered about too much damage as well....
> 
> The trust thing is the hardest part of it...but like your H mine is a good man. He is a hard working guy..he is one of those people that others meet and think yes, this is a nice guy! I think that was the appeal for the OW as well. I could see why she would be attracted to him.


I can also see the qualities the OW was attracted to in my H. 

Your spouse and Iheartlife, and the others here have husbands who are doing some heavy lifting. Maybe not at first but surely after six months?

Still, my STBExH was exaggerating himself to the OW in a lot of ways. He was acting as if he had more money than he has, that our businesses were larger and more profitable than they are, and he was doing things (he's admitted) to try and make her jealous. He thought it was funny.

She was extremely jealous of his women clients, I never was. I just trusted him. 

Obviously she is a far more intelligent woman than I ever was because she was jealous and possessive and never trusted him. Smart girl, IMO, or maybe just cunning.

I never put my husband down in front of others. She obviously does, and so does my Soon to be Ex husband. Yes we fought, but I never belittled him. OW belittles her husband constantly. My husband belittled me to her, and often did so when talking to his family.

We mostly fought about grandiose expenditures he wanted to make simply to impress others, the fact that I did not like riding on the back of his motorcycle (i was in one motorcycle accident of my own and had major injuries and never drove one again,).

We also fought because I did not need to spend money on a $200,000 exotic car because to me a car is just for transportation and we already had a two nice upscale cars. Or too many guy trips and boy's night's out. I now know he used guy trips to take OW on trips. His visiting porn sites, while he had the real thing right next to him.

I admit, I am too frugal mostly relating to being a starving artist in NY whose parents could not afford to help me.

His OW on the other hand, is the same way he is with spending, and the need to impress others. She is very grandiose and pretends to be more connected and liked in town than is true.

The STBEH does not want to have a real relationship with OW, he already said he could never stand being around her too much. 

Still, I think they are better suited for each other.
Although, I doubt she would want to stay with him very long. Her own husband is far wealthier.

The STBexH complained about my non desire to spend lavishly to the MC saying I was not his mother to tell him how to spend his earnings. He denies having a porn addiction.

We fixed those complaints he had about my spending. He still had to get a lap dance. He told me he did it because he was angry that I was checking up on him after the affair. 

Just so you all don't think, I don't think I have faults or that I threw in the towel too quickly.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> I can also see the qualities the OW was attracted to in my H.
> 
> Your spouse and Iheartlife, and the others here have husbands who are doing some heavy lifting. Maybe not at first but surely after six months?
> 
> ...


I dont think you NEED to explain at all. R or D is a personal choice. Once someone is unfaithful they do it with full knowledge that it COULD cost them their marriage. So, though Im sorry it ended this way for you, there truly is no need to explain. Thanks for sharing though.


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## LeighRichwood (Mar 31, 2012)

You know, Sara, anything that happens in your life is something that you have to deal with the way that you think is best. Not a soul on this board or even your family or friends have to live with your decisions. Family and friends may be affected by them, but you and you alone must live with what you decide.

Anything you share here you should do that to either help yourself or help someone else. You help yourself by getting it off your chest or using the writing as a way to sort out your thoughts. You help others by giving encouragement and using your story as an example to support what you're trying to say.

I, too, am very sorry your marriage is ending this way. I do believe that there are good things for you as you begin a new chapter in your life.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

LeighRichwood said:


> he knows me better than anyone else in the world does. I also know that he truly loves me in return.
> 
> He is also completely aware that there's no second chance. Another affair means divorce. I will not go through recovery again.


ditto, ditto, ditto


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I am digging the sharing in this thread! 

Seriously, I just thought I'd let you all know that.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I was thinking as well last night that sometimes when I act out when I am angry is because of the trust issue. I think a part of me thinks why should I act all loving when, who knows, maybe he is still in contact with her behind my back...so it is easier to act angry than to act loving just in case...if that makes any sense! 

The thing is unless down the road I see concrete proof I might never know with 100% certainty...you just have to bite the bullet and trust that nothing is happening. I told myself the best way to handle those insecure paranoid feelings is to act loving..because if he is doing something and here our marriage is improving then less and less he will need that "ego boost" he gets from here...so naturally it will die off on its own.

Between acting angry or acting loving..which is going to get me further ahead in the end I guess is what it comes down to.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Another thing...I guess that is where that control issue comes up with me..in that I think I would act loving if I knew for sure that nothing was going on but until I get that guarantee why should I?? Easier to be angry and paranoid instead just in case....

Obviously the angry feelings are not working for me...and I guess like in any other relationship, that has no history of infidelity, you just have to trust and assume that nothing is going on behind your back.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

highwood said:


> I was thinking as well last night that sometimes when I act out when I am angry is because of the trust issue. I think a part of me thinks why should I act all loving when, who knows, maybe he is still in contact with her behind my back...so it is easier to act angry than to act loving just in case...if that makes any sense!
> 
> *************************************************
> ^^^^^^^^
> ...


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Great point....she will look more appealing because it is easy to come off as sweet and loving online, when you have no baggage together, etc.

I guess that is the control thing again..I would find myself thinking if someone could guarantee me 100% that nothing is still going on then I would be satisfied well obviously that is not going to happen so I just have to work with what I do know.

Like I said if our marriage keeps getting better then even if something is going on that will evnetually dry up in time and as well..with the distance between them geographically eventually she is bound at her age (43) to meet someone else locally at some point I would think anyway. I would want to date someone that I could see physically and go out with them as a couple..not just online flirting...to me after a while that would be a very unsatisfying relationship.

I think it is good that I keep having these "aha" moments lately. It puts things into perspective.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

You know, this is not a "Beauty Contest" and the winner gets to take home your hubby! :lol: :rofl:

highwood, the way I look at it is like this: "Is this the kind of person, woman, wife and mother I want to be? Do I want to be an angry person? Or do I want to be a woman who's known for being peaceful and gentle? Do I want to be someone who's fun and interesting and sweet...or someone who's grouchy and jealous and mean?" Whether your hubby is attracted or not, he made a promise before his family, your family and God to forsake all others for YOU ONLY--thus he does owe you 100% of his affection and loyalty and owes the OW *nada* *zero* *NUTHIN'*!!! So do it to be the kind of person you want to be...not to "win" a prize you've already been promised.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I agree....I do not want to be an angry bitter person anyway. It also comes out in everything you do , how you interact with others, etc. Plus it affects me at work, lack of focus, etc. which is not good.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

highwood said:


> I agree....I do not want to be an angry bitter person anyway. It also comes out in everything you do , how you interact with others, etc. Plus it affects me at work, lack of focus, etc. which is not good.


This is what I mean. Sometimes ya gotta "fake it til ya make it". It worked for me. Now thats a broad statement. I mean that even when it wasnt the 'comfortable' thing to do sometimes I did it b/c I knew it would never become comfortable unless I took a step forward. Yes it was for him. It was to keep my marriage BUT more than anything-IT WAS FOR MY SANITY. To get myself off that bathroom floor so to speak. I decided that this was not who I wanted to be. And I also realized that he had to feel like there was something to fight for, that he had some kind of chance with me. He actually said that to me. "I will move heaven and earth to fix this, but I need to know that you love me." He wasnt asking me for a get out of jail card just a glimmer of hope that it would happen in time and with enough change from him. I was angry at first, then it hit me that He HAD to ask. I was treating him like I hated him. I hated what he DID. So I decided that one way or another R or D, I was gonna have to stand on my own two feet. Rather it be to have the strength to R or the fortitude to be without him. One way or another-What I had to do was to fix ME. The bonus was- He started to see ME. As soon as that happened he just started showing more and more of the guy I fell in love with. And though the road is rocky, we're on it together.

I believe you(HW) and your H can get there. I see so much change in you and from what you say, he is coming around too? Are you feeling better in general? Can you eat, sleep? Do you have times when you arent thinking about the A? Even just momentarily? That took me weeks. I went to sleep thinking about it and had nightmares about it and woke up and thought about it. NEVER left me. It was like having 300lbs on my chest all the time.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

:iagree: :iagree: Yep! "Fake it til you make it" doesn't mean you shouldn't be who you are. It just means that when you first start trying to do something new, it isn't going to feel "normal" or "comfortable" at first. It'll feel gangly and weird and like "boy I sure didn't do that right!" but you keep trying keeping being who you are in your core but kind of got away from over the years.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Totally agree with what's been said.

Everyone reading this thread knows my story.

At some point--and ironically this predated DD#1 by about a year--I figured out that I had not been living the life I wanted to lead. That I wanted to find a bit of beauty in every day, that life is made up of mundane moments so I better learn to appreciate the mundane, and that I also wanted to be the best person I knew how to be. This was all selfishly for me, I wasn't trying in particular to improve the marriage or to influence anyone outside of me.

But being that way changed my perspective so thoroughly that being loving and compassionate toward my husband wasn't such a great stretch. Here's the important thing: none of this got my husband to end his EA. You can't nice someone out of an affair.

What it did do was help (in some part, not entirely) make it easier for my husband to walk away from his AP on DD#2.

It also gave me perspective that I was going to be fine in life with or without him. I needed to change my approach to life no matter what he decided to do. These are the steps to vastly improving your moment-to-moment happiness. They aren't a cure-all, but they sure help you over life's bumps.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

"What it did do was help (in some part, not entirely) make it easier for my husband to walk away from his AP on DD#2."


BINGO!!!!!!!


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Great advice again..thanks!

It is hard as I still have those moments where I think how much this person lied and deceived me and why am I still with them...

Like in Sara's situation I totally get after going thru the emotions why some people choose to leave..if somebody was telling me my story back to me and they made a different choice to leave I would totally respect and understand why somebody would think it was too much to stay because of the damage. I am sure there are people in my life that think to themself why is she staying..is she a fool or what?

...and as Iheartlife stated you can't nice someone out of an affair..and I totally get that as well. My thing is I don't want anybody to think that I am living life with blinders on, that is so not the case..I am unfortunately now, in my life, having to check things that I never would have given a thought to previously. I long for those "no questions asked trust days" but those are long gone sadly.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> And I also realized that he had to feel like there was something to fight for, that he had some kind of chance with me. He actually said that to me. "I will move heaven and earth to fix this, but I need to know that you love me." He wasnt asking me for a get out of jail card just a glimmer of hope that it would happen in time and with enough change from him. I was angry at first, then it hit me that He HAD to ask. I was treating him like I hated him. I hated what he DID.


This part scares me a bit. As Iheart said, you can't nice someone into ending and affair or not getting into one. 

Were you really not nice prior? Many cheaters rewrite the marital history to ease their guilt. 

You have a right to be angry. 

My STBEH said similar things about wanting to fix things but fearing I would eventually leave him ( the Karma bus hit, i guess?)

He said in front of one counselor "I think no matter what I do she will leave me in a few years anyway. "

The counselor immediately told him that was disrespectful 

The counselor pointed out that Here I was taking at that time a huge leap of faith with a known cheater to trust he won't cheat again, and here he was worrying about a faithful spouse leaving him, without being willing to take the leap of faith that we could fix things. 

Again, it was all about him. 

For my part, I was not treating him like i hated him and i told him many times that I hated what he did, I instinctively knew to phrase it that way prior to MC.

Why does the spouse need a guarantee that things can be fixed. Are they thinking of going back to the OW.

If so, if that was my husband's logic, then I figure, he can go. He's not over her if he's still thinking that if things aren't going to work, maybe he should reignite with OW. 

Also, the fact that they are so worried about you leaving says that they know your a good deal and will likely find someone else that treats them better. 

My STBEH said that to me. He actually said you will find someone who treats you better very quickly and you will dump me. Well, why didn't he realize that before he messed with OW and painted me as such a terrible wife to justify his cheating?

Just my 2 cents.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> This part scares me a bit. As Iheart said, you can't nice someone into ending and affair or not getting into one.
> 
> Were you really not nice prior? Many cheaters rewrite the marital history to ease their guilt.
> 
> ...


What you are saying is stuff that has gone thru my head many times.....regardless of how I was prior to H's EA I know I did not deserve the pain he inflicted on me. I am a good decent person, I might not have been the best wife at times. But I never betrayed him...and for him to after DD#1 reestablish contact for 6-1/2 months behind my back all the while telling me nothing was going on is a tough blow.

I said to him, all those times you were working your ass off out of town, if you found out that I was going out on dates with another guy, your telling me you would be okay with that..I said this to him because he told me I was vindictive towards his OW. I said so you would not have wanted to confront this other guy especially if he was okay with the fact I was married??? I know him he would have wanted to kick the guys' ass.


Sometimes I hate to admit it but some of this WS's need to have what they did done to them so they can understand the range of emotions that go thru the BS>


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

highwood said:


> What you are saying is stuff that has gone thru my head many times.....regardless of how I was prior to H's EA I know I did not deserve the pain he inflicted on me. I am a good decent person, I might not have been the best wife at times. But I never betrayed him...and for him to after DD#1 reestablish contact for 6-1/2 months behind my back all the while telling me nothing was going on is a tough blow.
> 
> I said to him, all those times you were working your ass off out of town, if you found out that I was going out on dates with another guy, your telling me you would be okay with that..I said this to him because he told me I was vindictive towards his OW. I said so you would not have wanted to confront this other guy especially if he was okay with the fact I was married??? I know him he would have wanted to kick the guys' ass.
> 
> ...



I hear ya. Until someone has been lied to deceived and humiliated by cheating in general they will never understand our emotional responses. 

Men are often very vindictive toward the OM.

As for not being the perfect wife sometimes. When cheaters marry the OW, they find out that she, too, will show her normal human side and typically the OW's human side is much darker than the faithful spouse's side. 

I read an old book by a doctor named Dr. Joyce Brothers, and in it she mentions that she has a ton of divorced men who cheated and either stayed with the OW or the wife booted them. 

In all those cases, the relationships with OW lasted at most 2 years and often only six months before the guy realized that his wife was so much better and that he had an unrealistic expectation of what a good wife is.

By then, it's too late. The wife moved on and here the guy is sitting and crying in the doctor's office wishing he hadn't cheated. 

Oh well. Some people need to learn their lessons hard.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

...and I was thinking too the other day..about how once or twice over that 6 months how I said to H.."well at least your "friend" had the decency to stop contact with you once she found out you were not separated but still married, that shows she has some morals"....little knowing that she didn't care and they were still in contact. That pisses me off...I wonder what went thru his mind when I said that?? Those are the things that make me feel like a fool....and that is when I can see why somebody would say **** it..I don't need this **** in my life....

I honestly think unless it happens to you alot of WS do not fully comprehend the damage that they have done.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

3% chance of a relationship that started in infidelity to work out..so not good odds at all.

Of course it was easy for H's OW to come across as sweet and flirtatious all the time. They only saw each other for 6 weeks then for the next 8 months it was all online. Frick I could go online right now and flirt like crazy with a ton of guys...acting like I am this sweet flirtatious girl. No different than him pretending that he was still this hot blooded guy...yeah right buddy!

There is so many times when I have thought **** they deserve each other and can have each other and then I will stand back and watch the destruction. Her using him to come to Canada, plus his relationship with his son destroyed over this and his family not wanting anything to do with her. As well us going thru a messy divorce and him having to suffer financially. He would have so much stress on him.....

I have to admit that would have been fun to watch from the sidelines...I know that is vindictive but who doesn't let thier mind go there after something like this.

Sorry, I think am having one of those less positive days today...sigh!!!!


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

highwood said:


> No different than him pretending that he was still this hot blooded guy...yeah right buddy!


That one gave me a good laugh.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

highwood said:


> that shows she has some morals"....little knowing that she didn't care and they were still in contact. That pisses me off...I wonder what went thru his mind when I said that?? Those are the things that make me feel like a fool....and that is when I can see why somebody would say **** it..I don't need this **** in my life....
> .


I hate to help out a WS, but the fact that she lacked morals is likely why he wanted an affair with her and a marriage with you. 

He knows she is a sl*t. When a guy wants an affair, emotional or Physical, the sl8=*ttier the better, most likely. 

STBEH finally, when out of the fog, said that he knew the OW was not a nice person. He did not care. He wasn't looking for wife material. 

Hope that helps since your recovery seems to be going well. It takes awhile to get out of the fog. That's likely when he reconnected. He does seem to be trying now


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

True....I don't know what was going thru his mind...he did say at DD#1 that he wasn't sure what he wanted..whether he wanted to stay with me or be with this other person.

I think now he realizes that everybody knows about it, in his family that the chances of her being accepted by his mom and his sisters, etc. as his new girlfriend, would be pretty slim. Plus with our son, knowing that this was the woman that his dad met while still married, there would be no relationship at all between her and our son. 

I think he liked the flattery it made him feel good.

It still pisses me off that he was going to use our airmiles to fly her over here so she could start a better life. 

But didn't she think the same thing...she knew he was married even if he told her unhappily didn't she have any qualms about getting involved with a married guy???? That would turn me off personally if it was me...


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> That one gave me a good laugh.


That's why he now says if I kick him out and we divorce that he has no interest in getting involved with anybody because of his sexual issue...alot of women would wonder why the guy doesn't even want to kiss them never mind have sex with them..if he met a woman as a legitimately separated/divorced man they would probably run the other way.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

highwood said:


> That's why he now says if I kick him out and we divorce that he has no interest in getting involved with anybody because of his sexual issue...alot of women would wonder why the guy doesn't even want to kiss them never mind have sex with them..if he met a woman as a legitimately separated/divorced man they would probably run the other way.


There are studies that show that men that have sexual issues like Erectile dysfunction or premature ejaculation sometimes cheat to prove they still got it. 

The affair is so stimulating that at least for awhile the plumbing works better. 

I am sorry you are here, but your spouse was likely still in the fog the first time he went back. 

It sounds like he's out of it, now. He is trying. I am betting you two make it.

Yes. it's the flattery that got him. 

Some people believe flattery. To me, too much flattery scares me.

To add: It's okay to be angry. Come to here to vent, instead of taking it out on him, even though he deserves it.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Thanks Sara! I am reassured that at least it didn't go the physical route...I think if that had been added in I would not have still been here as well at least she is overseas..if this was someone he saw everyday at work I think I would go insane.

I think combined with his sexual issue as well as a less than great marriage at the time...you add in some flirtatious chatty girl and I guess it was bound to happen. Fortunately for me his plumbing didn't even work better...that is how powerful antidepressants are..doctors are prescribing them like crazy and that is scary.

To me the worst affairs to recover from would be ones in which it was both physical and emotional at the same time...but that's just me.

I know he was still in the fog because it was only 4 days after DD#1 when he initiated contact again....

I agree with you regarding too much flattery sometimes that can come off as phoney.

So what process are you in now...are you divorced or just in the process right now? Are you looking for another relationship or just going to be on your own right now.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> This part scares me a bit. As Iheart said, you can't nice someone into ending and affair or not getting into one.
> 
> Were you really not nice prior? Many cheaters rewrite the marital history to ease their guilt.
> 
> ...


Youre right I do have the right to be angry and at times I am and I tell him so. No I wasnt mean or nasty before the A. BUT I did give MOST of my time to my kids. DOnt get me wrong, being a mom is so important but its not ALL there is. 

AND he didnt ask for a guarantee that it could be fixed. He asked if I still loved him and said as long as there is love from you I will do anything to fix this. He didnt say "promise me this is fixable" He said "I need to know you love me" in other words if he had killed it for me totally then he didnt want to keep hurting me but if I had ANYTHING left for him he would bust his A$$ to right his wrong. BIG difference. He has NEVER said "well no matter what I do, youre just gonna leave me anyway" or anything of the sort. NOT ONCE. I was treating him like I despised him. I wouldnt give him eye contact. Wouldnt let him touch me, wouldnt sleep in the same bed, wouldnt hold a conversation. Nothing. And I had that right. Absolutely. BUT he was asking IF I loved him NOT if I was angry. He knew that answer and he knew I had every right to be. And I hadnt taken any leap of faith. I hadnt promised to R. I hadnt promised anything b/c I wouldnt speak. 

He had no intention of being with the OW at that point. It wasnt about her then, it was about me and him. He was basically asking for something to hold on to, anything. And I think they worry about you leaving because they know they screwed up and you'd be justified in doing so. My H said that. He said " I wouldnt blame you, Im just asking you not to". 

I am sorry your H didnt really show any remorse. I think you were right in D. My H has shown ALOT of remorse. He continues to do so everyday. We are both trying to work toward each other. To have the marriage we want. Its gonna take a LONG time to recover from this. We have alot of bad days. I still trigger alot. He still takes alot of heat from this and he accepts complete responsibility. NEVER has he blameshifted or rug swept once all the cards were on the table. He has said" it happened b/c I was selfish. B/c I was arrogant. B/c I didnt have boundaries. NONE of this is your fault"


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

highwood said:


> Thanks Sara! I am reassured that at least it didn't go the physical route...I think if that had been added in I would not have still been here as well at least she is overseas..if this was someone he saw everyday at work I think I would go insane.
> 
> I think combined with his sexual issue as well as a less than great marriage at the time...you add in some flirtatious chatty girl and I guess it was bound to happen. Fortunately for me his plumbing didn't even work better...that is how powerful antidepressants are..doctors are prescribing them like crazy and that is scary.
> 
> ...


I filed for divorce. My STBEH had the emotional and physical affair combined with a lot of financial infidelity. He spent more dating her than he ever spent on me. 

Yes. it's more difficult when the OW lives in the same town as the OW in my situation did. 

It's difficult to believe they are not still seeing each other and laughing their asses off and gossiping about me and her husband as they did in the email sent to me anonymously. 

Not to mention being the brunt of a lot of gossip, 

The ongoing lies is what clinched it.

The divorce is in process now. It can take some time. 

*NO I AM NOT LOOKING FOR ANOTHER RELATIONSHIP NOW OR MAYBE EVER.*

As for your spouse. I am concerned about the antidepressants he is on. Some can affect the frontal lobes in a way that takes away impulse control.

Can you look up on wiki what type he's on and if loss of impulse control is one of the side effects. 

If so, tell the doc about the affair and ask the doc to use one that does not effect impulse control. 

Also, some psychopharmaceuticals cause a person to be hypersexual. 

If it's the meds, your husband really may have had no control over his actions. Without properly functioning frontal lobes, a person often has no filter between right and wrong. They just react to a stimulus.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> NEVER has he blameshifted or rug swept once all the cards were on the table. He has said" it happened b/c I was selfish. B/c I was arrogant. B/c I didnt have boundaries. NONE of this is your fault"


There now, you see, that's remorse. I think he is truly remorseful. I think you two will be okay. 

Ah the triggers. I know them well. I hope they lessen over time. 

The anger is tough to repress when triggered, and people likely should not repress the anger. They need only learn how to vent it constructively.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

highwood said:


> That's why he now says if I kick him out and we divorce that he has no interest in getting involved with anybody because of his sexual issue...alot of women would wonder why the guy doesn't even want to kiss them never mind have sex with them..if he met a woman as a legitimately separated/divorced man they would probably run the other way.


Ah, but HW pay close attention to THIS statement from him. He is telling you he feels undesireable. That leaves him very vulnerable still. Are you able to do anything to help him aleviate that feeling? You've taken a step toward R, the last thing you want is him in the same emotional state that led him to his A. Thoughts?


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