# I love My Wife But Hate Marriage



## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

I've been married since I was 22, my wife and I have a lot of baggage, she had an affair when she was 22 and we separated for 2 years. I forgave her, but the resentment still remains. She has resentment towards me too, she got pregnant at 19, we were young lots of stress. She lost her job at 26 and decided she was going back to school and this was right after we bought a house, so the financial responsibility all became mine (more resentment from me), and more resentment from her because I wasn't thrilled losing 60K a year for her to get a degree, and me having to handle all the finances without even a discussion about it. Lots of fights, I drank heavy to self-medicate depression and anxiety and put on weight (she resented my self-loathing, I resented her for the drop in sex). But all through it we still loved each other and were very affectionate.

Today we've both changed a lot, I'm an executive manager, went back to business school for my graduate degree, I lost a lot of weight and look good, I take meds for genetic depression and anxiety issues, I also started therapy. She also has a graduate degree and her career is going well. She needs therapy but won't commit to it, she doesn't communicate with me. The marriage seems so difficult, sex is routine. Shouldn't it be getting easier? It seems we each take everything the other says the wrong way and with malice. I tend to think she is gaslighting me, and does passive aggressive ****, but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.

I still love my wife, we cuddle, hold hands, and in the past the idea of losing the marriage terrified me, it's why I put up with a lot of BS. But now it doesn't really scare me much, and the idea of a new relationship gives me more hope than fixing this marriage. I think we both feel exhausted and burnt out at this point, it's tough finding any comfort or joy in this marriage.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Sit down and talk about how you feel openly, I am sure she has things to say to you. Maybe you can both come up with ways to spice up your marriage and get back on track. Marriages go through seasons, the winter being the worst one but also the best because it is just before the spring or regrowth. You sound like you love each other, get the professional help you need, it is worth investing in your marriage.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

marriageontherocks2 said:


> I tend to think she is gaslighting me, and does passive aggressive ****, but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> I still love my wife, we cuddle, hold hands, and in the past the idea of losing the marriage terrified me, it's why I put up with a lot of BS. But now it doesn't really scare me much, and the idea of a new relationship gives me more hope than fixing this marriage. I think we both feel exhausted and burnt out at this point, it's tough finding any comfort or joy in this marriage.




Yes, now that you have gotten to the top of the mountain you can relax somewhat *and reflect*.
On the way up, it was all you could do but keep your head above water. 

Most decent people would hate to see you and her just 'give it all up'. After that long struggle.

Will you be happier out of this relationship and in another?
Maybe, maybe not.

You would need to find a women who will meet all your immediate needs and future needs.
You are young enough and 'with luck' and patience you can do 'that'.

I would wait. I would discuss your future together. Sit down and talk.

On her Gaslighting...what Truth is she clouding and bending into a pretzel. Is she re-writing the marriage?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

It will be a lot easier when you say that you hate your wife.


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

Personal said:


> It will be a lot easier when you say that you hate your wife.


If I still love her now I don't think that will ever happen, we've each been pretty ****ed up to the other. I guess if she did something crazy like tried to get me to not be able to see my kids, but I know she would never do that.

But in all our ups and downs, when I pull her into me and kiss her it just feels right. But the marriage itself is tough, real tough I'm not going to lie. I didn't think life could be as tough as it is right now for me.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Your marriage is your relationship with your wife.


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

aine said:


> Sit down and talk about how you feel openly, I am sure she has things to say to you.


We've done that. I've learned she resents me for not supporting her through school. I did pay all the bills, and took care of the household several nights a week. But I was definitely stressed by having all that responsibility on me, I'm sure I wasn't the biggest cheerleader. She has resentment from the fighting, we yelled A LOT, especially when younger, she gave as good as she got and she doesn't deny that, she has hit me in the past when she was really young, but I don't have any resentment about that, it didn't hurt me, but she feels guilty about it. But anytime we fight, all this resentment from the past shoots up to the present and doesn't ever seem to be stopping. Even from stupid little fights that have nothing to do with the stuff that comes out.

We've both talked about maybe there's too much baggage in our history and the best we can hope for is to take lessons learned into our next relationship and treat that person better.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

We are raised to believe that when we are one half of a couple, we should derive all our happiness and pleasure from that single partner and only experience it together with that partner. The whole relationship lockdown breeds an almost viral tendency to take the other person for granted, to have huge expectations, and to deliver this all from a sense of duty and obligation — without a thank you! Society hands us monogamy and only one way to be married. We are not given any alternatives but some couples are learning that there are alternatives.

My wife and I shared a girlfriend. Our girlfriend changed our whole marriage dynamic in a good way. She was able to fulfill needs in both me and my wife that we were not able to fulfill for each other. In turn we fulfilled needs in our girlfriend that not her family or ex husband could fulfill. I am not talking just about sexual needs, but all the many other needs people have outside of sex. Sexually she was very into the same fetishes I was in but my wife was not. She was able to provide my wife with the female lover she had been fantasizing about for years in secret.

We were together as a poly triad for 30 of the 45 years of our marriage. Marriage as we were taught to live it has been failing 50% for a very long time and yet, most will go down with the ship rather than find another ship to board. We never had so much as an argument with our girlfriend. She fit in perfectly and acknowledged my marriage as the primary relationship. However, I am not here to sell my lifestyle to you. I just want you to know that despite love, no two people can fulfill the needs and wants of each other. Do I have to point to the divorce and cheating rate to make that point. 

I love my wife dearly but 50 IQ points separate us as well as education. My wife is emotional and thinks with her heart rather than her logical brain. She only talks about TV shows and celebrities. Our girlfriend has two Master's degrees and we talked about all sorts of things. She also was emotional and liked to do the things my wife liked to do. I actually do not recommend a triad to people because most approach it as a sexual lifestyle where the husband and wife use the third girl and then replace her with someone new when bored. There are others like us who do make non monogamy work, but we have yet to find any who are married as long as we are. One woman in my life was not enough for me. Never was, and my wife knew it going into the marriage. I tried being monogamous twice, once to my ex fiancé, but both girls cheated on me. All of our siblings cheated and got divorced too. So excuse my view on traditional marriage and monogamy. If it works that is really very, very wonderful but odds are 50/50 that it won't. Would you step onto an airplane that has a 50% chance of crashing?

Despite sharing a girlfriend, my wife and marriage was held above all else. We have a wonderful life but fate intervened and our girlfriend was not able to move when we retired through no fault of her own. We miss her but after 30 years even threesomes get boring  Here are some links. You can love each other deeply and still have boyfriends and girlfriends outside of your marriage. More couples do it than we even knew. They look just like everyone else, not evertly sexual, not hotties, but just everyday people; teachers, chemist, FedX drivers, doctors, lawyers, clerks, mechanics, real estate agents, etc.. We just do not go around advertising it. 

If monogamy works for you, that is great. The problem is that it does not work for many married people and the only out society teaches us is divorce. We first wreck the life we built with someone we love before we can love another who in turn will also not be able to meet all of our needs so we stay in an unhappy marriage for the sake of the kids, fear of not finding anyone else to love us or just laziness. My message is to put your marriage ahead of all else, even monogamy if that is what it takes. I have moved far away from friends and family and given up high paying jobs to save my marriage. 45 years later and I do not regret a single thing I did.

https://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-25823/how-an-extramarital-affair-could-save-your-marriage.html

Polyamory: When three isn't a crowd - CNN

Rethinking monogamy today - CNN


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

@Vinnydee - That's some arrangement you had there. I know I couldn't live that lifestyle. I'm not religious and don't care from any moral perspective, what consenting adults want to do is their business. But I'm definitely a 1 woman guy, I wear my heart on my sleeve, love and connection to 1 person and vice versa is critical for my happiness in a relationship. I couldn't be happy with someone's love and affection diverted to someone else.

As for an open relationship I find the idea intriguing but ultimately I don't feel my wife or I could ever keep emotions out of it, one or both of us would fall in love with the third party, so that's out.

That's not to say if we're in some sunny foreign beach by ourselves and a 3-some opportunity falls in our lap that I would immediately shoot it down. We could just leave it all there when we fly away and do nothing but enjoy the memories. But again this is unlikely, it would have to be the perfect storm of our relationship being great, right person right time, and just the right amount of booze, probably 1/1000 it would happen.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

marriageontherocks2 said:


> *I still love my wife*, we cuddle, hold hands, and in the past the idea of losing the marriage terrified me, it's why I put up with a lot of BS. But now it doesn't really scare me much, and *the idea of a new relationship gives me more hope than fixing this marriage*. I think we both feel exhausted and burnt out at this point, it's tough finding any comfort or joy in this marriage.


^^Uh, no .... it doesn't come across as you "loving" your wife. You are entertaining the idea of a new relationship, which you claim gives you hope. Okay, so you divorce your wife, hook up with someone else, and when the passion wears off you are left with the same thing: a relationship that requires a helluva lot of hard work. It's not always romantic. It requires some heavy lifting. And there are days when you will wonder just what the heck you got yourself into.

Frankly, you sound lazy and unrealistic to me, not to mention you got married/hooked-up too young. So, if you "love" your wife as you claim, then it's up to you to figure out what you can do to make the marriage work. Since you claim you hate marriage, I'd suggest you look at leaving the relationship and not getting married again. Not everyone is cut out for marriage ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Excellent summary - concise and yet it captures the big events. It is not possible to write this well - without being quite smart. 

This means that your perception that she is gas lighting you is very likely accurate. M2 (my wife) used to gas light me OFTEN. She no longer does. I HATE being gas lit. So that was a big improvement for me. 

WHY does your wife gas light you? 

Fwiw - I know why M2 gas lit me and why she stopped. Don't want to bias you with my answer. 




marriageontherocks2 said:


> I've been married since I was 22, my wife and I have a lot of baggage, she had an affair when she was 22 and we separated for 2 years. I forgave her, but the resentment still remains. She has resentment towards me too, she got pregnant at 19, we were young lots of stress. She lost her job at 26 and decided she was going back to school and this was right after we bought a house, so the financial responsibility all became mine (more resentment from me), and more resentment from her because I wasn't thrilled losing 60K a year for her to get a degree, and me having to handle all the finances without even a discussion about it. Lots of fights, I drank heavy to self-medicate depression and anxiety and put on weight (she resented my self-loathing, I resented her for the drop in sex). But all through it we still loved each other and were very affectionate.
> 
> Today we've both changed a lot, I'm an executive manager, went back to business school for my graduate degree, I lost a lot of weight and look good, I take meds for genetic depression and anxiety issues, I also started therapy. She also has a graduate degree and her career is going well. She needs therapy but won't commit to it, she doesn't communicate with me. The marriage seems so difficult, sex is routine. Shouldn't it be getting easier? It seems we each take everything the other says the wrong way and with malice. I tend to think she is gaslighting me, and does passive aggressive ****, but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> I still love my wife, we cuddle, hold hands, and in the past the idea of losing the marriage terrified me, it's why I put up with a lot of BS. But now it doesn't really scare me much, and the idea of a new relationship gives me more hope than fixing this marriage. I think we both feel exhausted and burnt out at this point, it's tough finding any comfort or joy in this marriage.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Well if you decide to hold on you should get marriage counseling and figure out how to communicate better. How did you both deal with the affair, does she take responsibility for that or is that your fault to. Lots of men who are cheated on decide to drop their wives later. You see it all the time, they just can't get over it. It changes the way they think about their wives and also staying changes the way they think about themselves. When you were shown no loyalty it's hard to be loyal later when mid life strikes.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Honestly it sounds to me like you two care for each other as friends, this doesn't feel like love to me, from what I am reading. It seems like you two should just let each other go so that you can each find real happiness.


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

3Xnocharm said:


> Honestly it sounds to me like you two care for each other as friends, this doesn't feel like love to me, from what I am reading. It seems like you two should just let each other go so that you can each find real happiness.


I thought about this, but would it be normal for us to hug, hold hands, sleep with me spooning her, she'll put her feet on my lap at night with a glass of wine and we watch a show, if it was just a friendship?

We couldn't be more different, she's extroverted, I'm introverted, she's a hot mess in the terms of organization and I'm very organized, she's a spend thrift, I'm a saver, she's lower drive and vanilla in terms of sex, and I'm high drive and much more adventurous. She likes material things, I like experiences.

We both married young and jumped into adult life likely way before we were ready, fought too much, resentment on both sides. We have a good life together, nice house, 3 kids, good jobs, it's a lot to give up and start over, I'll be living in a shoe box once alimony and child support are settled, coupled with the debt to pay off. I would probably be an old man before I could recover and actually enjoy life again. I think that's what's keeping me in the marriage, the alternative is destitution and working a stressful job but seeing no real benefit from my labor. I'll be working to support her new life, in our house, likely with some new fella leaching off me. Doesn't sound awesome.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

She has a degree and works, so you shouldn't have to pay any alimony. Just sayin. There should be no supporting her should you split. 

And I have a friend who I have done all that you listed here with, by the way. 

Clearly there is a reason for your unhappiness. What is it you are looking to change here?


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

marriageontherocks2 said:


> We both married young and jumped into adult life likely way before we were ready, fought too much, resentment on both sides. We have a good life together, nice house, 3 kids, good jobs, it's a lot to give up and start over, I'll be living in a shoe box once alimony and child support are settled, coupled with the debt to pay off. I would probably be an old man before I could recover and actually enjoy life again. I think that's what's keeping me in the marriage, the alternative is destitution and working a stressful job but seeing no real benefit from my labor. I'll be working to support her new life, in our house, likely with some new fella leaching off me. Doesn't sound awesome.


I'm going to call BS on this. If this was really your main concern you'd meet with a lawyer and a financial advisor and get some facts, and then make an educated decision that was in your best interest. Most men that are successful will be better off financially when they are divorced than they were when they were married, even when you figure in child support and other expenses. 

Your real reason is you are afraid to leave and be on your own. Don't lie to yourself.


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

Bananapeel said:


> I'm going to call BS on this. If this was really your main concern you'd meet with a lawyer and a financial advisor and get some facts, and then make an educated decision that was in your best interest. Most men that are successful will be better off financially when they are divorced than they were when they were married, even when you figure in child support and other expenses.
> 
> Your real reason is you are afraid to leave and be on your own. Don't lie to yourself.


I did meet with a lawyer for a consultation, I would owe ~ 43% of my take home pay in child support, I "may" owe maintenance due to the discrepancy in salaries and length she's been working, and she would likely get the house that has nearly 300K in equity in it. It would be a devastating financial hit, at 40 it would probably be 55 or so until I could recover from it and get the debts paid, and at that point I feel it's too late to start over. The finances are definitely a HUGE concern for me, I don't want to be old and destitute.

I'm not at all afraid to be on my own, I'm introverted and always loved alone time. Even when younger I could take weeks off from friends just to do my own thing. I could never have a relationship again and it wouldn't bother me too much, I think I would want one, but if it didn't happen I would be OK with that too.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Sounds like a load of crap to me, try consulting a different attorney!


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

3Xnocharm said:


> Sounds like a load of crap to me, try consulting a different attorney!


I thought I would at least get to sell the house and split the equity, but the lawyer says because I make 4X more than her, it's unlikely the judge would uproot the kids and she would get the marital home. I looked at the NY state guidelines and the 43% of my take home looks right on the money with 3 kids, no real guess work there. He said maintenance is likely since she's only been working 3 years and I make 4X more, so in theory I could be giving her 300K in home equity, and over 60% of my take home pay each month. 

I have no retirement savings, she has a pension and I was going to start putting money away after paying off the house.

I'll live, I actually don't require much, but if I'm basically broke I wouldn't want to work an executive management job that's taking years off my life due to stress just to keep my ex in 60K cars and Gucci purses. I would like to do something I enjoyed even if I make less.

I don't know, I have a lot to think about.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

marriageontherocks2 said:


> the lawyer says because I make 4X more than her, it's unlikely the judge would uproot the kids and she would get the marital home. I looked at the NY state guidelines


Yep. BTDT. I stayed in an unhappy marriage for 15 years for just those reasons. The marriage was a farce, but I had a lot more control of my finances and of my future being in the marriage than out of it.



marriageontherocks2 said:


> I would like to do something I enjoyed even if I make less.
> I'm introverted and always loved alone time.


Me too. And, I was able to keep doing it by staying there. I would have lost this ability if I tried to divorce her. My lawyer was right. Your lawyer is right, too. I'm very thankful I had an honest lawyer who was actually looking out for me, rather than the fees he could charge for the divorce.

My friend, all of life is a trade-off. There's none of us who have the best of all "worlds". We introverted people are extremely unhappy in "big bucks" jobs where the extroverts shine.



marriageontherocks2 said:


> it's too late to start over. ..... I don't want to be old and destitute.


Exactly. Old and destitute is a very bad life.


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> Excellent summary - concise and yet it captures the big events. It is not possible to write this well - without being quite smart.
> 
> This means that your perception that she is gas lighting you is very likely accurate. M2 (my wife) used to gas light me OFTEN. She no longer does. I HATE being gas lit. So that was a big improvement for me.
> 
> ...


Sorry I missed this, thank you, very kind of you to say.

An example of my wife's gaslighting. She spent a good 12 months hanging out with several divorced women, 2 were the main culprits, drinking to excess, going to bars, leaving me with the kids. I would come home from work in the summer (she has summers off) and every day they were there, typically very drunk and loud, house a mess, etc... Now if I talk about how I view that period of time as an abandonment of our marriage and it leads to reasons why I don't have a good comfort level in the marriage, she says "oh come on, they were over here once or twice, I went out to bars with them maybe 1-2 times a month, I stopped doing it because you had such a problem (which isn't true, she stopped doing it because they turned on her)".

Now I know it's BS I lived that time period soberly, but she'll insist on her version being correct and that "I'm crazy", and won't even acknowledge why I'm bothered by her actions because she gaslights me. She instead insists I'm controlling and won't allow her friendships. When really she was getting inebriated almost daily and acting like a 21 year old on Spring Break. No spouse would be OK with that behavior.

I worry she may be BPD or a narcissist.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

A quick internet search and it looks like for 3 kids it's 29% after tax, medicare, and alimony. But that is if you are the non-custodial parent. I have split custody (50%) of my kids so I only pay half of the amount. Can you get split custody? That would drop the payment of your after tax income to only 15%of your income. 

Personally, if I were in your situation I'd move the family to a state with better divorce laws then cut the cord after establishing residency. https://www.guyvorce.com/greatest-nastiest-states-alimony/


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Painful to read in the sense that - its large scale gas lighting about some major misbehavior. 

So yes - I recognize that though the specific issues were different for us. Me personally - I'd take money out of the equation as much as possible and see what happens. 

It isn't hard to do - max your saving rate into the house and college funds. 

Just so there is no doubt - this isn't an offensive play - and don't let her paint it as such - or just laugh and shrug if she does. This is a way for both of you to identify why she is sticking around. 

I kind of did my own version of this - with overall good results. But I was ok with either outcome. 






marriageontherocks2 said:


> Sorry I missed this, thank you, very kind of you to say.
> 
> An example of my wife's gaslighting. She spent a good 12 months hanging out with several divorced women, 2 were the main culprits, drinking to excess, going to bars, leaving me with the kids. I would come home from work in the summer (she has summers off) and every day they were there, typically very drunk and loud, house a mess, etc... Now if I talk about how I view that period of time as an abandonment of our marriage and it leads to reasons why I don't have a good comfort level in the marriage, she says "oh come on, they were over here once or twice, I went out to bars with them maybe 1-2 times a month, I stopped doing it because you had such a problem (which isn't true, she stopped doing it because they turned on her)".
> 
> ...


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

Bananapeel said:


> A quick internet search and it looks like for 3 kids it's 29% after tax, medicare, and alimony.


Child support is always based on gross after deductions, not take home pay after taxes are factored in. So if my gross is 120,000/year (this is just an example), for 3 kids I would need to pay $3,130 monthly or $37,560 yearly. 120K*.32 (tax rate)=$42,000 leaving me with $81600-$37560=$41,200.

So the child support alone is 46% of my actual take home. Then factor in medical visits, braces, alimony, etc... I wouldn't be able to live since I'm sure I'll be saddled with all the debt and my student loans, with no assets.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Maybe the internet was wrong, but it says it's 29% after tax, medicare, and alimony. 

That's why you do half custody of your kids. That cuts the amount you pay in half and saves you $18K/yr.


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

Bananapeel said:


> Maybe the internet was wrong, but it says it's 29% after tax, medicare, and alimony.
> 
> That's why you do half custody of your kids. That cuts the amount you pay in half and saves you $18K/yr.


You can deduct medicare but not state and federal taxes. The way it works in NY is you add both parents incomes.

me 120K gross
her 60K gross
total 180K household gross

3 kids 29% of 180K = $52,200 in total child support.

I contribute 66% to the household income so I'm responsible for $34,452 per year.

They can also make you pay alimony, child care, medical, etc... that 34K is the starting point. It always goes way up.

In NY if I got 50% custody it would only reduce the amount owed a very small fraction, infinitesimal. My wife's friend was fighting her husband on joint custody until she found out that it only dropped her payments $50 a month. Then she was like whatevs...


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I second the move out of New York.

And stay out of California or North Carolina.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

marriageontherocks2 said:


> @Vinnydee - That's some arrangement you had there. I know I couldn't live that lifestyle. I'm not religious and don't care from any moral perspective, what consenting adults want to do is their business. But I'm definitely a 1 woman guy, I wear my heart on my sleeve, love and connection to 1 person and vice versa is critical for my happiness in a relationship. I couldn't be happy with someone's love and affection diverted to someone else.
> 
> As for an open relationship I find the idea intriguing but ultimately I don't feel my wife or I could ever keep emotions out of it, one or both of us would fall in love with the third party, so that's out.
> 
> That's not to say *if we're in some sunny foreign beach by ourselves and a 3-some opportunity falls in our lap that I would immediately shoot it down. We could just leave it all there when we fly away and do nothing but enjoy the memories. But again this is unlikely, it would have to be the perfect storm of our relationship being great, right person right time, and just the right amount of booze, probably 1/1000 it would happen.*


THIS 

This one-hundred percent honesty of yours has lost you the feminine vote on TAM, save one or two like-minds.

On like-minds:
They are 'closet supporters' of these things.

On the surface, and out of their mouths you hear..... righteous thought, supporting righteous behavior.

But while in their closets they turn on their fantasies.

Just Sayin'


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Personal said:


> It will be a lot easier when you say that you hate your wife.


I cannot hate someone I loved.

For me, It does not compute.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> I cannot hate someone I loved.
> 
> For me, It does not compute.


That's a bit like having a limited vocabulary.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Personal said:


> That's a bit like having a limited vocabulary.


Ouch!

No, I am a picky lover.
Odds are that my loves were properly vetted.

Quick to friendship.
Slow to love.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> Ouch!
> 
> No, I am a picky lover.


Affection, love, hate, and indifference.

In living this life I prefer to experience a variety of flavours.


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