# The Wife and I



## ScottishKin (Jun 4, 2017)

Hi all,

Sorry if this gets long-winded or rambling. Like most of us, I just need an output and to communicate with others in similar situations.

My wife and I have been together for 8.5 years, and our families finally got a big day out on us last November. The proceeding 8 years had not been smooth sailing by any means; my wife has always been troubled by the trauma of a neglectful and at times, downright abusive childhood. By her own admission, this leads her to emotional instability, a lack of faith in her own judgement, trust and anger issues. I myself am no angel, but her unresolved trauma - which always lies just below the skin, brings out the worst in me; when she gets angry or upset over something I see as trivial, I in turn resent her for starting an argument. When she blows up and starts calling me names and telling me we're done, I walk away and give her space, but I leave it too long. Instead of seeking her out, I let her stew. I get blinded by my own feelings and don't do all I can to help us through. I want to approach her, hug her and tell her "this all silly, my love", but fear about making things worse.

I've also kept things from her - nothing big, nothing hurtful and certainly no betrayal, but still, not always as honest as I want to be with my beloved for fear of her reaction or perhaps trying to avoid another argument and more hurting, pouting and stewing.

It's always worst after there's an incident with her family. Our worst period was shortly after her sister got very sick several years ago and, although she made a full recovery, the way her family behaved during that time left a lasting effect on her - which also coincided with a lot of arguing between us. Our first proper 'break-up' came when I made a comment during dinner which - and I'm trying to avoid her most hated of my phrases but - she 'took the wrong way'. She was done, she wanted me gone. I left with all my belongings and stayed with family to lick my wounds. A few weeks later, she called me and asked me to come home. My only answer was my always answer for her. 'Of course'.

She all but stopped talking to her parents and one of her sisters three years ago after a huge row at Christmas. When we finally set a date for us to get married, it was inevitable she would face a dilemma about her parents. They were invited though, and when our big day came, she tried to receive them in the most hospitable way possible. In return, she spent most of the evening of our reception playing marriage counsellor to her parents, talking them out of murdering one another and listening to tall tales of them hating each other and getting a divorce. On her wedding day.

After that, she was done with them. But then came the first six months of our marriage which turned out to be our worst six months. Arguing, distrust, suspicion bordering on delusion. Too many fights and arguments, too much rehashing old battles. During this time, three little letters appeared in out vocabulary - 'BPD'. I discovered it, she embraced the possibility of it. It explained so much. She started going to see an old counsellor she had seen previously. The counsellor suggested psychotherapy. We agreed there were so many issues that bled into our relationship that needed to be dealt with. We wanted to be stronger moving forward. After some time seeing her counsellor alone, we would seek couples therapy. That was the plan.

The past few weeks have been horrendous though. She has been irritable, quiet, sullen and detached and often terribly cold to me. There has been arguing, there has been sulking. There have been extended periods of not talking to one another, or barely muttering basic pleasantries before skulking off to separate corners of the house. She is hurting. Sometimes the reasons don't make sense to me. Sometimes I don't know what to do.

We broke the latest round of silence, but I didn't say the right things. She was done again, it's over. The third time in three weeks. I thought at the very least me leaving would give us space to heal. It felt like the right thing.

Then I did something terrible. I wanted to talk about our wonderful dogs who be both cherish. They're our babies. She wanted none of it. They're 'her dogs' she said. The implication was 'her dogs now'. I walked away upset. I tried again. She wouldn't talk. I put a leash on one of them and made for the door. I didn't know what I was doing, where I was planning on going. I wanted to shock her out of the detached state and discuss them with me. She jumped in front of me, screaming. I tried to open the door, she tried to stand in my way. I continued to try and open the door regardless. She struggled with me over our poor frightened dog, and eventually she called the police. I went and sat on the bed with him, and felt nothing but shame as I handed her my keys and told her I'd wait for the police but 'they're my dogs, too'. It still overwhelms me as I type this. It was a hurtful, selfish, juvenile thing to do. I scared us all. I scared her the most.

I was detained by the police as she told them I had pushed her. I believe she was coached by the policewoman to say that in order to have me removed, at least for a few hours. I hold no ill-will towards her for this. My behaviour was reprehensible, she was terrified and I had to go. I was released shortly afterwards and spent the night elsewhere. I collected my things the next day. I've had brief contact with her sister who is staying with her in our home at the moment, just break-up logistics.

So we're done. Or, I guess technically, separated. I know my wife. She doesn't forgive easily. I've vilified myself and will have undone almost a decade of love and cherished memories in a moment of desperation. I love the very bones of her, warts and all - just like the John Legend song. I have no idea what she feels for me. I can't even apologise sincerely to her for fear she'll see it as a misguided manipulation to worm my way back. But all I want to is say sorry.

I'm so sorry.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Unfortunately your marriage in the future will be filled with such drama unless your wife embraces getting help for her issues. Your playing caretaker and trying to work around the elephant in the room. You will constantly be appeasing her and you can't be "perfect". Your only feeding the dysfunction and the toxic environment. You should seek some counseling for yourself as it sounds like you have some strong codependency issues. 

You own your part of the problems, you can't carry both and she right now is unwilling to see her side of the problems. You need to start detaching and get yourself out of the drama to gain perspective on this relationship all together.


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## ScottishKin (Jun 4, 2017)

Hey honcho, thanks so much for your reply.

I only ever get to discuss my relationship with people who want what's best for me, so it's nice to get a dose of truth. Yes, there is distinct issues of co-dependency. I got that from my mother who spent 30 years in an unfulfilling relationship with my father until his premature death.

I know she wants help. She doesn't want to be that person. Our fights tend to come right when she manages to stop seeing me as a manipulative, self-centred demon who's led her up the garden path and we can have a calm, rational discussion. She just struggles to see sometimes that although I don't always behave as my best self, it's fed by her behaviour.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

ScottishKin said:


> Hey honcho, thanks so much for your reply.
> 
> I only ever get to discuss my relationship with people who want what's best for me, so it's nice to get a dose of truth. Yes, there is distinct issues of co-dependency. I got that from my mother who spent 30 years in an unfulfilling relationship with my father until his premature death.
> 
> I know she wants help. She doesn't want to be that person. Our fights tend to come right when she manages to stop seeing me as a manipulative, self-centred demon who's led her up the garden path and we can have a calm, rational discussion. She just struggles to see sometimes that although I don't always behave as my best self, it's fed by her behaviour.


 @Uptown has written a great deal of information regarding living with a bpd person. If she does have that it's who she is. While she may say she wants help she probably isn't genuine. They have trouble regulating emotions and because of that your dealing with constant highs and lows and it can change at the flip of a switch. 

You can't be on your best behavior and change in a moments notice to appease them, it just can't be done in the real world. They can be completely "in love" and "hate your guts" in a moments notice as the black and white thinking controls them. The world is made of shades of grey. The longer your involved with her the more you become a caretaker feeding your codependency. It's a toxic situation. 

As with most of these relationships the time between good/bad gets less and less as time goes on. Sooner or later you will be the demon all the time. Now that she's gotten police involved in one of her episodes your really behind the 8 ball. She will utilize this more to get her way. It's hard, it's not what you want to do but you should discuss divorce with a lawyer and start protecting yourself and work on your codependency issues. You haven't been married that long and it doesn't sound like you have kids involved. These situations only get more complicated as time goes on.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Children learn what they've lived.

Look at her parents marriage. 

Now, look at your parents marriage.

Those were the examples set for you both. That is where you're heading. You've seen your future. Drama and Insanity on her side and staying even though your soul is being crushed on your side.

Either you both get intense professional help from qualified professionals ( which might be successful if you both work hard over years) or you divorce. These are the only two ways you don't end up your collective parents.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> BPD. I discovered it, she embraced the possibility of it. It explained so much.


Scott, I agree with you that the behaviors you describe are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Specifically, I'm referring to the irrational jealousy, controlling attitude, temper tantrums and icy sulking, lack of impulse control, inability to trust, low self esteem, always being "The Victim," and rapid flips between adoring you and devaluing you. Importantly, I'm not suggesting that your W has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit strong traits of it (regardless of whether they are above or below the diagnostic threshold). 



ScottishKin said:


> Her unresolved trauma -- which always lies just below the skin -- brings out the worst in me.


Scott, it is impossible to live with a BPDer for 8 years and to continue behaving like your normal, regular self all the time. Your behavior will be affected by the stress, cold sulking, and abusive outbursts. The result is that you will sometimes behave in a way, in the heat of the moment, that you later regret. This process is called "picking up fleas" and it occurs with all of the abused spouses who are living with BPDers.



> When she blows up and starts calling me names and telling me we're done, I walk away and give her space, but I leave it too long. Instead of seeking her out, I let her stew. I get blinded by my own feelings and don't do all I can to help us through.


If she is a BPDer (i.e., has strong and persistent traits), the problem in your marriage is not your _"leaving it too long"_ or _"letting her stew."_ As *Honcho* observes, even if you did everything to perfection, you would still be in a toxic marriage. 

The main problem is not your occasional mistakes but, rather, the position of the BPDer's two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- at the opposite ends of the _very same_ spectrum. This means you are always in a lose/lose situation because, as you back away from one fear to avoid triggering it, you will start triggering the fear at the other end of that same spectrum. 

Hence, as you move close to a BPDer to comfort her and assure her of your love, you will start triggering her engulfment fear, making her feel like she's being suffocated and controlled by you. Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you will find that you've started triggering her abandonment fear. 

Sadly, there is no midpoints solution (between "too close" and "too far away") where you can safely stand to avoid triggering those two fears. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years searching for that Goldilocks position, which simply does not exist. 


> I want to approach her, hug her and tell her "this all silly, my love", but fear about making things worse.


As you know all too well by now, hugging a BPDer while she is feeling engulfed and suffocated is as helpful as hugging a burn patient.



> I've also kept things from her - nothing big, nothing hurtful and certainly no betrayal, but still, not always as honest as I want to be with my beloved for fear of her reaction or perhaps trying to avoid another argument and more hurting, pouting and stewing.


This self censuring and cautious choice of words (to avoid triggering another cold sulking or temper tantrum) is called "walking on eggshells." It is so common among the abused partners of BPDers that the #1 best-selling BPD book is titled, _Stop Walking on Eggshells_.



> After some time seeing her counsellor alone, we would seek couples therapy. That was the plan.


My experience is that, until a BPDer has worked hard in individual therapy for several years at least, couples therapy is a total waste of time. The reason is that a BPDer's issues go far beyond a lack of simple communication skills. For 15 years, I took my exW to weekly sessions with six different psychologists and three MCs. 

Although I spent a small fortune doing it, all that therapy did not make even a dent in her bad behavior. Not one dent. I have since learned that it is rare for a high functioning BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength required to be successful in therapy.



> My behaviour was reprehensible, she was terrified and I had to go [to jail].


Don't be so hard on yourself. You weren't trying to run off with a child to another country. You were headed out the door to walk the dog -- or to go drive around somewhere to cool down. Indeed, this is one of the few examples you give of establishing a personal boundary and actually enforcing it. Instead of feeling so shameful, you should be proud that you finally stopped letting her walk all over you.



> I was detained by the police as she told them I had pushed her.


Likewise, my BPDer exW called the police and told them I had "brutalized" her by pushing her away from my bedroom door -- a door she had been trying to destroy by throwing it up against the wall. Because I was arrested early on a Saturday morning, I had to spend nearly 3 full days in jail before I could go before a judge (on Monday afternoon) for arraignment.

Remember, a BPDer has such a weak self identity that she will keep a death grip on her false self image of being "The Victim," always "The Victim." Hence, to a BPDer, having you arrested and carted off to jail is the equivalent of her walking across the stage to receive a Harvard PhD degree in victimhood.



> I've vilified myself and will have undone almost a decade of love and cherished memories in a moment of desperation.


No, you likely have undone nothing. If she is a BPDer as you suspect, she almost certainly was going to be "splitting you black" more and more frequently (unless she spent years in therapy). As the years go by, a BPDer's fear of abandonment grows as she sees her body aging. 

And her resentment toward you grows larger each year as she grows weary of your inability to make her unhappiness disappear -- an impossible task with BPDers. One result of this transformation is that you will be increasingly perceived of as "The Perpetrator," i.e., the cause of her every misfortune and hurtful feeling. 

Another result is that, after 12 to 15 years (15 years in my case), it is common for the BPDer to become so fearful and resentful that she walks away from the marriage. In contrast, excessive caregivers like you and me will hold on forever. To us, the idea of walking away from a sick spouse is anathema -- even when that is exactly what we should be doing for her benefit as well as our own.



> She is hurting. Sometimes the reasons don't make sense to me. Sometimes I don't know what to do.


I suggest you take a quick look at my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If those descriptions ring many bells and raise questions, I would be glad to join *Honcho* and the other respondents in discussing them with you. 

I agree with @*Honcho* that your excessive caregiving (aka, "codependency") likely is feeding the dysfunction and toxic environment. It takes two willing participants to sustain a toxic relationship for over 8 years. As *Honcho* suggests, you likely would benefit from some counseling to address those excessive caregiver issues -- the same issues I have been working on. 

Our problem is not that we want to help people. Rather, our problem is that we keep helping even when it is to our great detriment to do so -- and even when our efforts are unproductive. I also suggest you read Schreiber's blog article, "Do You Love to be Needed?" Her view is that our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are). Take care, Scott.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Stay gone. This won't get any better. 

Wasting your life for what?


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## ScottishKin (Jun 4, 2017)

Thanks all for your responses.

Uptown, well, I don't know what to say. I'm touched you would breakdown my post in such depth and detail and take the time to respond in such a way. Thank you, truly.

I recognise my own trust issues. After our first break-up which came out the blue and appeared to be an over-emotional reaction to something I said, they were amplified 10x. Although we got past it after a few weeks, there were things I did which I shouldn't have.

The major issue she's been having for the past few months was over money. We got a joint account shortly after the break, she was more for it than I but it worked in the end and resolved some minor money issues we'd be having. But I didn't tell her I had some savings, not much, but our whole relationship I'd secretly been saving for a deposit for a home for us as I knew she couldn't save for toffee. I had always planned to give it to her as a wedding gift and perhaps encourage her to join me in saving. However, I was also safe in the knowledge that if she broke us up again, I would have some security at least. This wasn't the driving factor for hiding it, but it was a thing, no doubt.

So when we did marry, I wrote her a card and told her we had some money to start our married life, that I had savings. She hated me for keeping this from her, she felt betrayed and felt I only put the money aside incase I was out in the street again; it was as if she recognised my trust issues, but didn't want to shoulder any responsibility for helping us fix them. I didn't think I had done anything to the extent to which she made me feel guilty, but I do recognise I shouldn't have kept it from her for so long.

I'm been on an emotional rollercoaster for the past few days; Guilt, shame, anger and even positive thinking at times. I catch myself thinking, well, if we do try and save this thing we have, she HAS to address her issues in a meaningful and committed way. And that's all I ever wanted!

Then I remember that the likelihood of her burdening her portion of the blame is slim.

I still feel like trash. I know I went crazy, I know I shouldn't have gone for the dog, I still don't know what was going on in my head. Her sister, who was very friendly and didn't display any hostility in her messages, let me know that she had been incredibly scared and wanted me to put in writing that I wouldn't make another play for the dog and that I understand that the best place for him is with her; that is true, I've had to move an hour out of town and would be gone too long and it would be unfair to him. We also have another dog at home and it would be unfair and uncool to separate them. So I gave her what she wanted. I put a note through our door with a brief apology and said I understood the dogs should stay with her.

No contact other than that, I don't expect any. She's done the whole unfriend/change status/block on Facebook and I got an automatic e-mail to say she'd removed my e-mail address as her security info with Microsoft.

Despite the crazy-making, I still want this to be the change for us that was needed. A proper Lovefool. I'm waiting to see a counselor to talk through my thoughts and I'm looking forward to it. I understand that now, as someone who spent a long time putting the we before me, I have to concentrate on making me strong and better than before, not for her, but for me. I still have a life to lead with her or without.

So, we'll see.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Why do you make yourself out to be a terrible person by taking one of your dogs for a walk? Did you really hit or push her? If not, you a doormat and a nice guy. You need to fix this. Start standing up for yourself.

Think of this as a new life. This is a second chance to live the life you want without drama and walking on eggshells. It's actually a good thing the police showed up and you can now start the separation process.


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## ScottishKin (Jun 4, 2017)

I had not long come back from taking the dogs for a walk. They need didn't another.

I felt like she telling me she was denying me access to them. I had no intention of kidnapping the dog, I just wanted to get out of the house with him and cool off, but also wake her out of the cold, robotic fug she'd been in, realise how much I cared and talk with me about them.

I didn't push her, she stood in the way of me opening the door, started screaming and there was jostling over the dog. My hands were on the leash or the door knob the whole time. But she feels like she was pushed. I'm not a doormat, but that sort of behaviour is not me, especially not to the person I love.


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## dubsey (Feb 21, 2013)

You're married to a child. You can't fix this. If she's unwilling to, and by all accounts, she's completely unwilling, you have to be willing to let go and walk away peacefully.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

ScottishKin said:


> I had not long come back from taking the dogs for a walk. They need didn't another.
> 
> I felt like she telling me she was denying me access to them. I had no intention of kidnapping the dog, I just wanted to get out of the house with him and cool off, but also wake her out of the cold, robotic fug she'd been in, realise how much I cared and talk with me about them.
> 
> I didn't push her, she stood in the way of me opening the door, started screaming and there was jostling over the dog. My hands were on the leash or the door knob the whole time. But she feels like she was pushed. I'm not a doormat, but that sort of behaviour is not me, especially not to the person I love.


She was denying you, that's her "control". The whole calling the police is just another power play. Yes it could have been handled much better by both of you but she also knew you had every legal right to take the dog for a walk or take the dog with you. In marriage you don't have the his-hers, it ours. She knew this and played her "throw a fit" then "fear for her safety" card to win. 

This is the type of person your dealing with, you need to start seeing her this way otherwise your gonna get bulldozed. They spin everything and right now your still willingly taking the blame.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Unless you can learn to deal with that fear you have, you will not be able to have a stable relationship with this woman. Trust me, fear and BPD do not mix well. You will shoot yourself in the foot every time you let fear drive your actions.


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## ScottishKin (Jun 4, 2017)

Thanks guys, my head is just so far up my own behind I don't know whether I'm coming or going.

I guess I'm shouldering the blame because I know that's how she sees it. I'm punishing myself for the fantasy reconciliation, ready to accept my blame and hope that convinces her she should own her actions too.

I go back and forth on myself all day.


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## dubsey (Feb 21, 2013)

Only you can decide what you want, but forever is a long time to keep repeating this cycle.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

dubsey said:


> Only you can decide what you want, but forever is a long time to keep repeating this cycle.


It won't be forever if he changes. If he changes the way he thinks about his relationship with his wife and changes the way he responds to her craziness, he can stop the cycle. She will likely always have her moments, but he can provide motivation for her to change for the better. 

Problem is, most people don't believe in change. Most people aren't willing to do the things that they need to do in order to form a stable relationship with someone with mental issues.

@ScottishKin, are you willing to stop accepting blame for things that you have not done wrong, start refusing to leave the house whenever your wife feels like it, and start carrying a voice activated recorder on you at all times when you are with her? And if so, are you willing to record her craziness and inform her that you will expose it to the people she cares about in her life if she tries to lie to them about you? Are you willing to bring it with you to couples therapy to hold your wife fully accountable? 

Are you willing to make sure she knows that EVERYONE will know just how nasty she can be to you, while still letting her know that you are willing to work on your relationship WITH her?

If you are not willing to do all of that and more, you will never be able to get off the emotional Rollercoaster that you are on unless you simply leave her.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Scott,
She either loves you, or she doesn't. She will either reach out to you, over she won't. You can't get a BPD person to reconnect on your timeline. 

That said, a BPDer is able to see their own behavior - provided their partner remains completely calm and constructive. If you cannot do that, than you simply aren't compatible. I'm not questioning your love fore her, merely your suitability. 

Example below:
-----------------
About 6 weeks before our wedding, out of the blue one night my fiancée says: If you aren't willing to convert (to Catholicism) we 
should cancel the wedding. I'm Jewish - and I'm also not religious. But she was religious. Why I'd already agreed we could raise our current and future children (we already had a one year old) Catholic. 

So she says we should cancel the wedding unless I convert. And I thought for a moment and dead calm replied: 
If you want to cancel the wedding that's ok. Because I have no plans to convert (26+ years later I still haven't), and if I live to be a hundred, still don't think I'm gonna convert. That said, if you change your mind at some future point, decide you do want to marry, that's ok too. Thing is, this is your one chance to have a proper family wedding with lots of guests. I'm not open to jerking family/friends around twice. So if we cancel, the only go forward option is the two of us and a Priest. No hurry - let me know what you want to do. 

---------------
BPD + whatever that was (pure rationale) = good outcome

Maybe an hour later she says: I want to proceed with the wedding as is. 
And I replied: Good

And the topic didn't come up again. 

The fuel for BPD behavior is the emotional intensity of the recipients reaction. Without (any emotion in the reaction) fuel, the BPD behavior quickly disappears......

The purest fuel you can inject into a BPD engine is raw fear. Trying to take the dog was a fear driven response. 




ScottishKin said:


> Thanks guys, my head is just so far up my own behind I don't know whether I'm coming or going.
> 
> I guess I'm shouldering the blame because I know that's how she sees it. I'm punishing myself for the fantasy reconciliation, ready to accept my blame and hope that convinces her she should own her actions too.
> 
> I go back and forth on myself all day.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

This is worth repeating...

Trying to "get her to see it" is fearful, not strong. It's you trying to "convince her" - which places lower value on "you"

This simply must be avoided.

Like MEM, I'm also with a BPD'er

Like MEM, I've let HER decide she loves me.

If it's her idea, it's a good one.

So, we're together.

Do not be afraid. Do not attempt to convince.

Emotional strength is the only weapon you have - use it.


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## ScottishKin (Jun 4, 2017)

Hey guys.

So that's two weeks tomorrow since I last saw her as I was carted away in the back of a police car. It's been an absolute rollercoaster for me, I've been up and down like a yo-yo. As you'd expect, when I think of everything at face value, I get very upset - shame, guilt, I ruined it, what could I have done differently etc etc. I convince myself that it's not the borderline traits that did this, it was my behaviour.

But.. when I spend hours reading BPD articles, books and forums and everything lights up like a neon sign, I get angry. Mostly at myself. I resent myself sitting with my head in my hands when I know she isn't. In fact, she'll be putting on her happy face, telling everyone she was a fool to stay so long, let alone marry me and totally detaching herself from any real emotion. I don't think she's monster and I don't resent her... much. Or do I. Actually, I really, really do. But deep down I know she's broken - I just never knew how much.

Earlier in the week, I tried messaging her sister on Facebook to ask how my wife was (who I've always got along really well with). She promptly unfriended and blocked me. Ha. I'd bet my shoes she went straight to my wife and followed what she told her to do - my wife has always been a bit bullish towards her.

I guess my big issue I'm struggling to come to terms with is the loss of faith and trust. I know people have been cheated on and abused and wrung for every last dime by people they married because they believed in big love, but I guess I never thought it would be me.

Now I'm mostly sitting wondering if the big emotional hurricane is going to blow through her head when she can no longer detach from the reality of our split (as happened last time), if in her sadness and possible depression alone at home with no family or friends close by she paints me white again and can't believe what she's done and tries to back-pedal or if the switch has stuck and I'm just the **** STBXH.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

ScottishKin said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> So that's two weeks tomorrow since I last saw her as I was carted away in the back of a police car. It's been an absolute rollercoaster for me, I've been up and down like a yo-yo. As you'd expect, when I think of everything at face value, I get very upset - shame, guilt, I ruined it, what could I have done differently etc etc. I convince myself that it's not the borderline traits that did this, it was my behaviour.
> 
> ...


IF she's BPD, "all of her problems" will be solved by separating.

And, it won't be long until "all of her problems" will be solved by reconciling.

Don't be strung along.

Work on you and gain strength for the battle ahead.

Force her to decide what she wants - with strong boundaries.

Control your fear with self love.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

ScottishKin said:


> I get very upset - shame, guilt, I ruined it, what could I have done differently etc etc. I convince myself that it's not the borderline traits that did this, it was my behaviour. But.. when I spend hours reading BPD articles, books and forums and everything lights up like a neon sign.


Scott, it is perfectly normal for a struggle to go on in your mind between your intellectual adult views and your childlike intuitive feelings. There are two insights I found to be most helpful during the relapses -- and you WILL have relapses, where your gut-level feelings are that you should go back to her. The first insight was my realization that the healing process is not linear. Like healing from a torn muscle, healing from a deep emotional loss proceeds in fits and starts. This means that there will be there will be days when you wake up and suddenly feel like you are right back at square one -- i.e., feel as though you've made no progress at all. Although the feeling itself is very real, it is important to realize YOU DON'T HAVE TO BELIEVE IT.

Because your relationship lasted 8.5 years, you can expect these bad days to keep recurring for perhaps a year. What will likely happen is that, instead of stopping after a few months, those days will become spaced further and further apart until -- eventually -- they don't reoccur at all. This is the way the normal healing process works. Hence, having a bad day does not mean you've lost your progress or that you are back at step one.

The second insight that greatly helped me was my realization that learning about my exW's problem (BPD) and my problem (excessive caregiving) is the _easy_ part. What is _difficult_ is internalizing that understanding, i.e., transforming knowledge into wisdom, which requires that my feelings catch up with my intellectual thoughts. 

Simply stated, I must persuade the intuitive "child" part of my mind that the intellectual understanding by the logical "adult" part of my mind is correct. I had to close the huge gap between my feelings and rational thoughts so that, at a gut level, I truly believed that my intellectual insights were true.

Had I failed in that effort, I would have remained stuck in a destructive pattern, repeating my past mistakes over and over, because my child will be calling nearly all the shots. The child makes most of our important decisions because it is that intuitive, emotional center of our minds that determines what we enjoy, who we love, and where we want to go. 

Hence, it is important to realize that a struggle is going on in your mind between your intuitive child and logical adult. Because I had been in a 15 year relationship, it took me two years to bring my child's feelings into close alignment with my adult's understanding. 

After just two weeks of intense reading on the Internet, I had a pretty good understanding of what I needed to do to get out of the toxic relationship and why I needed to do it. Yet, because my child was lagging far behind my adult, the child sabotaged my every effort to break away. 

It hindered me with nagging doubts, terrible guilt, and a strong feeling of obligation. It kept telling me that the theory floating around in the adult part of my mind was an insufficient basis on which to wholly abandon a loved one. The result was that, a year after I had left her, I still refused to go No Contact for eight more months, at which point I finally realized she is incapable of ever being my friend.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Uptown,

If I may... go ahead and tell him the story about how she STILL thinks of you as an abuser.

Of course, that's codswallop.

But, it suits HER narrative. The only thing she cares about maintaining.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

ReturntoZero said:


> Uptown, If I may... go ahead and tell him the story about how she STILL thinks of you as an abuser.


RTZ, yes, she still is convinced that I abused her. And, because I gave her a book about BPD, she has projected BPD onto me too. And she has told my five step children all that nonsense so as to alienate them away from me. 

This is not to say, however, that she doesn't want me back. She would take me back in a heartbeat if I were foolish enough to return. As you know all too well, RTZ, a BPDer will perceive of you as "The Perpetrator" but still will not want you to leave her. This is why the #2 best-selling BPD book is titled, _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!_ Regardless of whether she is perceiving of you as the Rescuer or the Perpetrator, your playing either of those roles serves to "validate" her false self image of being The Victim. 



> But, it suits HER narrative. The only thing she cares about maintaining.


Because narcissists generally are very stable, they typically have one narrative -- i.e., one false self identity -- they continually must "validate" by receiving praise from their partners. Although that narrative eventually may change over time, it tends to remain stable for long periods. It always is a narrative of being "The Special One" but the way in which the narcissist perceives of himself as special can change over the years (e.g., changing from "genius businessman" to "wonderful father").

In contrast, a BPDer like my exW has a narrative that changes much more frequently because she is emotionally unstable. Whereas the narcissist's narrative supports his false image of being The Special One, a BPDer's narrative (regardless of what it happens to be this month) supports her false image of being The Victim, always The Victim. This, at least, has been my experience, RTZ.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

ReturntoZero said:


> Uptown,
> 
> If I may... go ahead and tell him the story about how she STILL thinks of you as an abuser.
> 
> ...


Every few months my crazy ex will still call the police claiming in watching her at home or trying to break into the house. After 4 years the local cops now just call me up and tell me shes having one of her "moods" as they realize what they are dealing with in her. She is absolutely convinced I abused her our entire relationship. After all these years I'm still the central point of her "victim hood life". I suspect that will never change.


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## ScottishKin (Jun 4, 2017)

Hey guys.

So I'm obviously still ruminating on everything that went down, my wife's obvious strong BPD traits, my own shortcomings and why we spiralled so far and so fast.

Our sex life was strange. When we had sex it was great, I always endeavoured to be an attentive lover and put her own needs ahead of mine. We just didn't do it very often. Maybe once every two weeks. We would always laugh and joke after a session that, hey, we should do that more often. It wasn't a deal breaker for either of us though and put it down to life getting in the way, dogs I'm the bed, tiredness etc.

However, after we got married, she became a little more forthright about her masturbating. She once initiated sex and when I tried to please her she told me it was alright, she'd taken care of herself in the shower.

I saw this as an open, honest communication about an issue that often gets up people's noses (partners masturbating) and in turn, we had a great conversation about the health of openness about it. But when I made it clear I too would like to take some time now and again and not hide it away in the toilet or some such, she got insanely paranoid. I was getting accused of doing it in the middle of the night as I lay next to her thinking she was asleep (something I did once, long ago to which she took great exception and I rightly apologised and promised I would never repeat). She used this as a springboard to claim I had changed since we got married and picked out little things here and there, and again, threw the money I saved for us in my face as if I was a liar, couldn't be trusted and it was all coming out in the wash.

I said she embraced the idea of her possibly having BPD traits and how that would explain her behaviour and mood and emotional disregulation. I went away for the weekend and when I came back and she was in fantastic form and told me she had been engulfed in reading books and articles about personality disorders. It was shortly after this she 'diagnosed' her parents with NPD. First it was her mother, then her father. Then both. She even labelled my late father as one, despite me explaining he was simply selfish and self involved. She spent all day browsing a sub-Reddit called Raised by Narcissists. In bed at night, her book of choice was about NPD.

The way in which we went downhill had her flipflopping between us being 'normal' and her being withdrawn before trying to end our relationship and then coming to me saying she didn't trust her own judgement, followed by more ending followed by tears and cries of ' I feel like I'm ruining everything' followed by me telling her she wasn't and more carpet brushing while I counted down the days to put some of this away for good in MC (which would start after her own IC)

Of course, It all came to an abrupt end one night after a breakdown in comms and I heard her twisting truths on the phone to her sister (he always does this, never does this, he'll try and reconcile but no way) but I'm wondering, did she 'diagnose' me as NPD too? If you become so immersed in learning about thought disorders I suppose you can start slapping the label on anyone with a trait or two.

Of course, she's erased me as she's always been so good at doing in her life (friends, parents, sister) so I'll never know but holding me hands up to my mistakes, has she decided her problem is she is a magnet for Narcissists and just has to cut them out! 

I dunno, just thinking out loud here. As always, there's only so much you can get out without a post becoming a book.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

ScottishKin said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> So I'm obviously still ruminating on everything that went down, my wife's obvious strong BPD traits, my own shortcomings and why we spiralled so far and so fast.
> 
> ...


Most likely she has "diagnosed" you with all sorts of pd's and disorders. They project their own issues onto everyone else, it can't be them so it must be everyone else. During my divorce my crazy ex had me diagnosed with every mental disorder in the book depending on which therapist of the week she was seeing. It isn't unusual at all if they do go to therapy it starts with "everyone else" has these issues etc etc. It's part of the victim game. You can't let it bother you and really don't dwell on it. 

She doesn't think she is a magnet for narcissistic people, she doesn't think she is the problem or part of the problem. She has most likely convinced herself that she tried so hard to save relationships but other people have too many issues and she must cut them off.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Scottish, this thread can't be about anymore, or to lesser degree, it has to be able you, your path now....to divorce, to healing, to rebuilding, to moving on, and to reaching out to people who truly care....you obviously can't fix her, you can't change her mind and you expect that she will have an epiphany...you have to work with what you have, you have someone who you used to love and perhaps still do but she is not the person you once knew, she is just the vessel who sees you as the enemy, and will throw you under the bus in a second. you don't need that in your life right now....if i were you i would put a RO agaisnt her...she is a ticking bomb.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

ScottishKin said:


> Has she decided her problem is she is a magnet for Narcissists and just has to cut them out! I dunno, just thinking out loud here.


Scott, I agree with @*Honcho* that it really doesn't much matter WHAT she has decided -- if she has strong BPD traits -- because that perception of you will shortly be replaced by another one. As Honcho explained, she will project onto you the painful thoughts and feelings she has at the moment, thus believing that they originate from you. As her feelings change, her projections will change too. The only thing that likely will remain constant -- at least most of the time -- is her view of you as The Perpetrator and of herself as The Victim.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Scottish,

Do you see how your description of your sex life places higher value on her than you?


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## ScottishKin (Jun 4, 2017)

Thanks guys.

Doubt I need an RO, she wouldn't come near me anyway. As far as she's concerned, I'm dead to her. She got straight onto exorcising me from her life - removed me from the bank account, informed the local authorities she lives on her own, etc, all within the first week. The rules for divorce over here in Scotland involve a years separation followed by application to dissolve marriage, an easy and relatively cheap process when there are no kids or property under dispute. Presumably she's just going to ghost me for a year and serve the papers, or, as we married in Malta and didn't register our marriage in the UK (although it is entirely binding under law) she may not feel the need to do anything until being married causing some sort of issue. She never mentioned divorce during our split, but perhaps we weren't married long enough for that to be the catch word during a bust up. Maybe she wasn't thinking. Maybe she forgot.

I realise my attitude to sex was definitely putting her needs above mine, but she never orgasmed during intercourse so some extra attention from me was generally needed. That said, on reflection, she seemed to bear no mind to my own needs, and I generally felt like sex was used as a control tool; she would often tell me we only had sex when she felt 'close' to me. If I pissed her off, as partners and husbands ae wont to do, it snapped shut like a clam in a hurricane and I felt like I had to earn it back.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

ScottishKin said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> Doubt I need an RO, she wouldn't come near me anyway. As far as she's concerned, I'm dead to her. She got straight onto exorcising me from her life - removed me from the bank account, informed the local authorities she lives on her own, etc, all within the first week. The rules for divorce over here in Scotland involve a years separation followed by application to dissolve marriage, an easy and relatively cheap process when there are no kids or property under dispute. Presumably she's just going to ghost me for a year and serve the papers, or, as we married in Malta and didn't register our marriage in the UK (although it is entirely binding under law) she may not feel the need to do anything until being married causing some sort of issue. She never mentioned divorce during our split, but perhaps we weren't married long enough for that to be the catch word during a bust up. Maybe she wasn't thinking. Maybe she forgot.
> 
> I realise my attitude to sex was definitely putting her needs above mine, but she never orgasmed during intercourse so some extra attention from me was generally needed. That said, on reflection, she seemed to bear no mind to my own needs, and I generally felt like sex was used as a control tool; she would often tell me we only had sex when she felt 'close' to me. If I pissed her off, as partners and husbands ae wont to do, it snapped shut like a clam in a hurricane and I felt like I had to earn it back.


"Earn it back"

No quicker way to place low value on yourself in a relationship.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

It sounds to me like you have enough of your own problems to fix rather than worry about your crazy lady.


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## ScottishKin (Jun 4, 2017)

Care to expand or just going to hit and run?


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

ScottishKin said:


> Care to expand or just going to hit and run?


Do you mean me?

I thought it was pretty clear.

We teach others how to treat us.

If we spend much time worrying about the happiness of another, and that person is ... let's say... a female who doesn't like herself much.

Where does that leave you?

You're chasing your tail trying to make an unhappy person happy - basically driving her crazy with your kindness. She'll end up hating and disrespecting you.

You have placed lower value on your own happiness than hers. So, you invited the disrespect.


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## ScottishKin (Jun 4, 2017)

Hey, no Zero, I was talking about the guy after you. I own my flaws and issues, or at least try to. I don't mind them being pointed out at all or discussed but his post just seemed a bit ****ish. Meh.

She broke no contact to tie up some loose ends regarding our joint account. Sent me an cold email to tell me she'd cancelled my direct debits and asked me to close down the website I made for her business as she didn't want the webhosting charges to continue without 'asking her'.

I didn't reply, I'll simply do as she asks and leave it at that.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

ScottishKin said:


> Hey, no Zero, I was talking about the guy after you. I own my flaws and issues, or at least try to. I don't mind them being pointed out at all or discussed but his post just seemed a bit ****ish. Meh.
> 
> She broke no contact to tie up some loose ends regarding our joint account. Sent me an cold email to tell me she'd cancelled my direct debits and asked me to close down the website I made for her business as she didn't want the webhosting charges to continue without 'asking her'.
> 
> I didn't reply, I'll simply do as she asks and leave it at that.


Only if it's not too much trouble.

You are officially "done" with her giving you jobs to do.


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## ScottishKin (Jun 4, 2017)

Six week update.

Nothing from her. She's certainly still 'done' at this point.

I had to find a new home. Replied to an ad for a houseshare owned by a cougar (40-something blonde). She was very keen for me to move in. She's rich, doesn't really need the money. House is massive in a great, well-to-do part of town. She messaged me saying she was 'very keen' for me to take a room, her other roommate (25-year old blonde) asked to meet me for a drink just to check for creepy weirdo vibes. Apparently she thought I was the best thing ever, so I've got the room, which is awesome.

Then on the same day I randomly bumped into one of my sister's bridesmaids in town. She was in full on flirt mode, hugs and gazing eyes, especially when she was asking after my wife and I told her we had split. She offered her number for when she is back in town full time next month.

Of course, lovely as all this is, it's just a much needed ego boost for me, nothing more. I've been made to feel like such a bad guy recently it was really nice to meet women who don't see me as, well, whatever my wife sees me as at the moment!


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

ScottishKin said:


> Six week update.
> 
> Nothing from her. She's certainly still 'done' at this point.
> 
> ...


Your lucky you haven't heard from her. She will pop up at some point, no doubt with drama storm. Just keep pushing forward and think less about what your stbx sees you as. In the beginning the "bad guy" role will bug you a tad but as time goes on you'll joke about it.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

honcho said:


> Your lucky you haven't heard from her. She will pop up at some point, no doubt with drama storm. Just keep pushing forward and think less about what your stbx sees you as. In the beginning the "bad guy" role will bug you a tad but as time goes on you'll joke about it.


In fact, you'll learn to relish it.

We only leave the Drama Triangle as the prosecutor - by allowing our rescuing tendencies to subside and letting others "manage their own lives"


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