# Should I believe my husband that he gave up masturbating?



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Hubs and I have been together 30 years. During that time, he told me at some point that he masturbated daily. He said it was for health reasons, primarily.

However, as different conversations unfolded, he admitted that he would masturbate to other women. These scenarios often took the form of becoming emotionally attracted to this woman or that. One woman, he maintained an emotional connection with for 10 years, until I finally intervened and responded to one of her emails to stop her contact with my husband. The relationship, in reality, was not sexual. But, for him, it took the form of a fantasy, as he finally admitted to me. While out of town, he had had dinner with her three times where they, after dinner, watched movies together and sat close together on her couch. He said he was only waiting for her to make a move and then he would have had sex with her. But she did not make enough of an overt move, he said, only sitting next to him with their legs touching.

He finally admitted to dozens of such fantasy scenarios over the years. It was his go-to place for his daily masturbation. I once was laying in bed (naked) one morning, and he was in the bathroom, so I decided to initiate a sexual encounter. I walked to the bathroom door, and saw him lubricated himself (erect) to get in the shower. I got in the shower with him and we had sex there (well, he did - I don't have a standing orgasm in the shower) - but it was better than the nothing I was going to get.

I asked him why he chose that instead of coming to the bed where I was and having sex with me. He finally admitted that he had been harboring a fantasy about a former classmate in anticipation of an upcoming class reunion. He had been harboring that fantasy for months.

There are thousands of scenarios like this over the decades we've been together - from single fantasies - to longterm fantasies. It's been the source of so many unpleasant discourses - promises that what he really wants is to have sex with me - that I am the focus of his love, yada, yada.

It has become such a heated issue with us. At one time, he said he tried the 90-day challenge of not to masturbate for that time. Then, the very day after that time was up, he started up again.

Let me just say that I feel like masturbation is an absolute right of an individual. Totally okay. Totally fine. But when it interferes with the sexual relationship in a couple, that becomes a red flag that there is something that needs to be addressed in the relationship.

The first thing I want to know is this: Is it really possible for a man to give up masturbating AND sex with their partner?

I am a woman and I can tell you that I can't do that. So, for a man who used to masturbate daily to say "I don't masturbate any more and haven't for a year." Is this real? Can a man actually do this?

I have tried absolutely everything I know in my toolbox to work on this with him. I have told him that the only thing I would like from him is: honesty. He can even say: "I don't want to talk about this topic with you because I want privacy regarding my personal masturbation habits." But just don't lie.

The second thing I want to know is: What do I need to do at this point? We are MUCH older and leaving is not an option for either of us.

I am quite aware that if there are sex issues inside a relationship, that masturbation can provide a safe release. But redirecting sex to masturbation as a way of avoiding talking about issues isn't a very viable solution.

I just have a really hard time believing that this man who has been accustomed to daily sexual release has given that up on top of not having sex with his partner. I am struggling with believing that he has given up masturbation. I even said to him: "Why would you do that? You don't have to do that!" I'm just asking him to be open and honest.

I feel like I'm a horrible person in every way. I'm begging for openness and honesty from someone who just doesn't appear to be able to do that. Because of his past lying, I am struggling to believe him. He wants me to give him credit for this abstinence effort - like it's some sort of achievement. But he doesn't talk about sex at all. He sidles up to me once in awhile with a half-hearted effort, giving me a short notice that he wants to have sex all the sudden.

I have explained to him ad infinitum times that women need lead time to become ready mentally for sex. Sure, it looks like some partners are ready quickly - but in reality, woman partners (and maybe some men) have already been thinking about sex for a longer period of time before and that's why they appear to be quickly "ready"

So, we are stuck in this limbo. I cannot shut off my over-controlling brain that says "He wishes you were X" or "He would be really turned on and passionate if you were X person" - and his half-hearted foreplay makes me feel like he wants to just get to the orgasm part and doesn't really care about the things that I truly enjoy from sex - which is passionate foreplay and connection.

I've literally told him out and out - "If you just want an orgasm, tell me and I'll turn around on the side of the bed and you can go at it for a couple minutes until you get that" so I don't have to put myself through the half-measures of robotic moves he isn't interested in.

He's done that a couple times. But then he says he wants me to have an orgasm, too. Which then I feel the pressure to somehow get turned on and to a climax quickly so that he feels better about his performance.

GAWD, writing this all out, I can see how this sounds so much like a dead bedroom. It is. But I feel like we are on a parallel track to something that could be so much better if we were able to overcome whatever the obstacles are.

I HAVE to let go of the b.s. years of him ogling other women and expending his sexual energy on them. I feel like there are a thousand fantasy women in our bedroom and I'm just a hole. I can't get rid of them in my mind. They play like an endless loop of women he wanted over me.

His word are that he "really want YOU" but it feels like a lie. Our whole life of sex was a lie.

I have no problem with understanding that sometimes a fantasy will slip into one's sex mind. But this was a complete takeover. Like, he pursued hanging out with these women. He says he was afraid of actually having sex with them but saw no harm in the endless loop of using masturbation to have fantasy sex with them.

I want more than anything to find a way to start over. It's the only way for us as we are too old to part and start over elsewhere. I don't want to give up but I am completely and utterly out of ideas. I assure you I have tried EVERYTHING - from masturbating together, injecting fantasies into our sexual encounters (him pretending he is having sex with someone else while I pretend be that person), going to a sex club and meeting with swingers (never followed through with any of those scenarios), sex toys of all types of magnitude, watching porn together, sex in a myriad of positions and places around our house, sexy clothing, going to sex shops together, and even discussing options for redefining our sex life. I've offered open marriage - open discussions - watching various sex education videos together. But the idea of me having sex with another person is just a non-starter for him. Well, frankly, it is a non-starter for me also. I'm very much a one-person sex partner and find the idea of sex with another man distasteful. So, much as he seems to like the idea of him having another partner - that the "fair" scenario makes that not appealing. And, in today's world and environment of disease, it would just be a dumb choice anyway.

At this point, I am being asked to "believe" him that he has given up his entire life's sexual habits and turned into Mr. Totally vanilla. Do men really give up masturbation for good or am I being asked to buy into a lie again? 

Is this just another Lucy-with-the-Football move? Do I take another chance and believe him for the sake of moving forward and starting over? Again?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Am I doing something really screwed up by asking him to be honest with me about this? Just give it to me straight. What in the hell would cause him to lie to me about this. I have given him another option, which is to say: "I don't want to talk about it. It's private, it's personal and it's my business. It's not up as a topic of discussion." But he insists that he wants me to believe him when he says "I don't masturbate BECAUSE I want to have sex with YOU." But that doesn't happen either.

FWIW, it took a huge leap of courage for me to post this discussion starter. I am seeking outside input because I am at my wit's end. My brain can't see its own way through this.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

His words don’t line up with his actions so I wouldn’t buy that story. And who knows what really happened when he was watching movies with another woman. I wouldn’t buy that story either. I think what you’ve experienced over the years is who he really is and he probably hasn’t actually changed.

(IMO, no one is ever too old to get out although many convince themselves that’s the case because it’s easier to stay than to leave. I was in my mid-60’s, and married to a cheater, when I got a divorce so I’m familiar with starting over later in life.)


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## Tested_by_stress (Apr 1, 2021)

If he has lost the use of his arms,believe him. Otherwise ,not a chance.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

So, how the hell do you deal with this? Do you just say "Look, I think the likelihood of what you are telling me is nil. So, I'm just going to take a stance that you aren't being truthful and you can take a stance that what you are saying to me is what you want me to believe - so you keep insisting it's true. We are at an impasse on that. Truth-telling is imperative to me - it's non-negotiable. I've given you the best way out I can think of that will give us both what we need in this regard. You can tell the truth by say 'I don't want to discuss masturbation with you because I want to keep that to myself' and that would mean you are meeting my criteria of truthfulness and your criteria of protecting yourself. You just can't keep telling me you are abstaining. It's not okay. And with that point resolved, I want to move forward with talking about improving our sex life. But it is not improved by you continuing to pretend that you are using abstinence as a club and a shield.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

It must be so hard to live with a man whose cares so little for you and who has basically been chasing after other women throughout your marriage. 
Its highly likely he has physically cheated and at the very least has had emotional affairs.

No one is too old to leave, however of course it's often easier to do nothing.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

He is telling you “it’s up to you to leave” so he can play the victim. He’s trying to get YOU to leave so YOU file and YOU are the terrible woman who broke up the marriage. It’s why 80% or something of divorces are filed by women. He’s getting all the sex he wants and has a servant at home. He can go on this way forever and be fine. Only you are suffering and he is ok with it.
Decide what you can live with.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

happiness27 said:


> Hubs and I have been together 30 years. During that time, he told me at some point that he masturbated daily. He said it was for health reasons, primarily.
> 
> However, as different conversations unfolded, he admitted that he would masturbate to other women. These scenarios often took the form of becoming emotionally attracted to this woman or that. One woman, he maintained an emotional connection with for 10 years, until I finally intervened and responded to one of her emails to stop her contact with my husband. The relationship, in reality, was not sexual. But, for him, it took the form of a fantasy, as he finally admitted to me. While out of town, he had had dinner with her three times where they, after dinner, watched movies together and sat close together on her couch. He said he was only waiting for her to make a move and then he would have had sex with her. But she did not make enough of an overt move, he said, only sitting next to him with their legs touching.
> 
> ...


Health reasons. 🤣🤣🤣
If you had told me he was masturbating to fantasies that he wasn't also going over to their house and sitting next to them on the couch watching TV with, I would have told you to get over it. But he seems very involved with his fantasy world of attracting other women. 

He seems like someone who would cheat if he got the right opportunity. I would be far more worried about his fantasy women that he knows in real life than him just in general masturbating.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Oh, yes, the emotional affairs began early on. I think we were only a year or so into our relationship when that began to happen. I was 37 and had a rock hard body from being a gym rat already for nearly 10 years. I was a success in my field and fairly well-known publicly in our local community and in my career field.

I was a bit baffled at first when I noticed what I would call his first emotional fling - first it was a mutual friend of ours who he started to go jogging with - then, later, "happened upon her" in another state and they went skiing together. She's gay through and through but she was 15 years younger than either of us in our late thirties at this point - and it was really easy for him to excuse that with "oh, she's like a little sister to me" - which was, of course, a lie. He was able to be seen with her by lots of people who had no idea she was gay and therefore could puff him up as a guy who could have a much younger woman hanging out with him. It was YEARS before he let go of that lie - and finally admitted what he had done there and how he had lied to me about what he was doing. He didn't need to actually be physically involved - he just needed other people to see him with her. She was actually a friend of MINE, up until that point. He just sort of took over. I was so p.o.'d with him when he finally fessed up to the reality - because it completely repainted the history of our relationship.

It was just one after the other after another - constant stream of women he would get enamored with over the course of our relationship. I didn't "know" about any of them until he would get careless and his behavior would start getting obvious. One of the worst ones was a 21-year-old co-worker when he was 49. He got contact lenses and a cellphone and that caught my attention - which led me to looking at our phone records (back when there were paper cellphone records/bills) and I saw how often he was calling her cellphone on a daily basis for little meetups just to be able to interact with her. I called him out on that finally and he skillfully denied it over and over and over. Just point blank to my face denied it. She finally got married and sort of burst his fantasy. Several years later when he left that job and she had gotten divorced, he asked a friend to have her get in touch with him. I found out about that and that's when that whole ordeal blew open and he fessed up to that series of lies.

That totally impacted the history of our relationship again. And again, I stayed, accepting his confession and thinking that would finally be the end of that kind of behavior. Okay, so he confesses and swears to change - and then a new cycle started over again. And again. And again.

I'm clearly a part of that cycle. It's completely on me that I continued to stay and engage and start over - over and over again - to the point of now feeling resentful and useless.

At this point, he's trying to convince me that he is abstaining from any kind of self-pleasuring because this is his way of changing. I'm so out of options at this point - very ashamed for my part in trusting him over and over.

He allows himself to make up for it by extreme politeness and attentiveness - fetching things for me, making meals at times, telling me "I love you" every night before sleep. I don't trust a single word out of his mouth.

And it's all for no good reason whatsoever. I already told him a thousand times that I prefer an ugly truth over a pretty lie. But this is the nature of a pathological liar. To them, lying makes perfect sense. This type of person can't ever see another way of existing. And I fit into him like a key into a lock. That's probably the thing I need to concentrate on - how I need to look at what it is in me that allows this to exist in my life.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Oh, yes, the emotional affairs began early on. I think we were only a year or so into our relationship when that began to happen. I was a bit baffled at first - first it was a mutual friend of ours who he started to go jogging with - then, later, "happened upon her" in another state and they went skiing together. She's gay through and through but she was 15 years younger than either of us in our late thirties at this point - and it was really easy for him to excuse that with "oh, she's like a little sister to me" - which was, of course, a lie. He was able to be seen with her by lots of people who had no idea she was gay and therefore could puff him up as a guy who could have a much younger woman hanging out with him. It was YEARS before he let go of that lie - and finally admitted what he had done there and how he had lied to me about what he was doing. I was so p.o.'d because it completely repainted the history of our relationship.
> 
> It was just one after the other after another - constant stream of women he would get enamored with over the course of our relationship. I didn't "know" about any of them until he would get careless and his behavior would start getting obvious. One of the worst ones was a 21-year-old co-worker when he was 49. He got contact lenses and a cellphone and that caught my attention - which led me to looking at our phone records (back when there were paper cellphone records/bills) and I saw how often he was calling her cellphone on a daily basis for little meetups just to be able to interact with her. I called him out on that finally and he skillfully denied it over and over and over. Just point blank to my face denied it. She finally got married and sort of burst his fantasy. Several years later when he left that job and she had gotten divorced, he asked a friend to have her get in touch with him. I found out about that and that's when that whole ordeal blew open and he fessed up to that series of lies.
> 
> ...


Yes sadly you have enabled his affairs. What matters now is whether you will carry in enabling his terrible behaviour.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

I kind of figured this was the case - what you are saying. I crave hearing the actual truth from men who will bust open the lie. He manages to get me to believe his b.s. by becoming incensed that I would dare not to believe him.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

I know what you are saying is true. I have enabled his behavior. Yet, to me, I didn't enable it because I called him out. Every. Time. I didn't just ignore it and accept it. I spoke up. But...yet...I stayed. Why? Because we have entanglements. Our families. Our kids (from other marriages), the need to hold on to a stability front.

I call it "polishing the veneer" - making sure we looked good from the outside. This is the protection I provided.

I have no other recourses any more. I am deeply depressed. I see the only way out as getting to the end of my life and letting go finally out of this lonely hell of a lack of intimacy. Kind of like Ricky Gervais said in his latest comedy routine "Humanity" - "I wake up every morning and say 'Oh, damn, I didn't die'" and then move into another day looking forward to the end. I have no hope anymore. I hate giving up like this but I'm trapped due to age, finances and health insurance at this point. I'd pretty much have to be homeless or in some other worse situation. When I consider options, I feel ashamed for not appreciating that at least I'm physically safe for the moment. Complaining about my little intimacy issue looks like a first world problem.

I already was in a bad state when I met him. I was three years out of a divorced-with-children situation, having spent that time in the ugly dating scene. I really hated all of that dating b.s., especially as a woman. Women were expected to save themselves for a marriage, even as a single parent - or else they were called names. While men, in a similar situation, were hailed as heroes and encouraged to "get laid" I just wanted out of that so badly that I jumped at the chance to be with what looked like on the outside as being a "nice guy" - I know what my co-workers were saying behind my back if I decided, while single, to spend a nice night with a guy having sex. That wasn't okay. It's not a woman's world out there in single land, I assure you. 

Now, with COVID, being out in the world is a huge obstacle. I absolutely feel trapped. I've never gotten COVID but I also don't leave the house. This is the point where he would speak up boldly and say "You are free to go anywhere, anytime you want." Yeah, not really.

Again, I can hear myself and my complaints sound extremely petty. Somehow, being able to voice them takes some of the pressure off, though. I am at a point where I'm praying for guidance. I am not connected with any particular religion - I just am grasping at some insights or guidance that will lift me out of this and at least let me be productive in some way, somehow, somewhere. I need to find a purpose and some hope.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

happiness27 said:


> I kind of figured this was the case - what you are saying. I crave hearing the actual truth from men who will bust open the lie. He manages to get me to believe his b.s. by becoming incensed that I would dare not to believe him.


Because he knows bullying you works. You don’t stand up for yourself no matter how obvious the lie.

Your happiness matters too. He is NOT the only one who counts. He will call you selfish for telling him to be less selfish. It is not selfish for you to expect something in return.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

And I thank you all for listening.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

happiness27 said:


> Am I doing something really screwed up by asking him to be honest with me about this? Just give it to me straight. What in the hell would cause him to lie to me about this. I have given him another option, which is to say: "I don't want to talk about it. It's private, it's personal and it's my business. It's not up as a topic of discussion." But he insists that he wants me to believe him when he says "I don't masturbate BECAUSE I want to have sex with YOU." But that doesn't happen either.
> 
> FWIW, it took a huge leap of courage for me to post this discussion starter. I am seeking outside input because I am at my wit's end. My brain can't see its own way through this.


Yours is a very sad story. Your husband has a willing and interested real live partner for three decades and he chooses to ignore her. How many men stuck in a sex starved marriage would love to trade places with him? Personally, I doubt that habits ingrained for so long have changed. And absent his drive dropping drastically, as a man I cant imagine that he has stopped masturbating AND still not having sex with you. Generally the energy is going to be expended somehow, unless his age has abruptly intervened.

I think what he is doing is "gaslighting". Trying to convince you that what you know is true isn't. Somewhat silly. Why he wont just take the offramp you have given him is beyond me. As to how to fix your situation, I have no idea. After so long with him having developed and ingrained habits over decades, I suspect he will be the same way until they put him in a pine box. 

I know nothing of people that call themselves "sex counselors" would someone of that discipline maybe be able to redirect him into a more productive relationship with you?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Do you have assets? A home that can be sold? Income? 
I had to separate in my 40's with three children and yes it was very hard. We had a small income but we managed. 
Better than being in such an unhappy marriage for you surely?


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Did he give up masturbation? Nope.

any other questions?


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> I kind of figured this was the case - what you are saying. I crave hearing the actual truth from men who will bust open the lie. He manages to get me to believe his b.s. by becoming incensed that I would dare not to believe him.


happiness,
I felt really sad reading your story. I think others already pointed out everything that needed to be said, and I think you already know the truth of the matter.

Honestly, nothing is going to change and he's fine with the status quo, so it IS up to you to resolve this however you choose. If you're into toys, I'd get a few that were bigger than him even if you aren't going to use it, just to screw with his head if you decide to leave 😂 but that's me...

I'm sorry to make light of things, given the situation, but some things just make you laugh or cry. Love is not words, it is action. His show you are indeed a convenient wet hole and wife appliance.

Be strong, and love you first.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Frankly he has been cheating on you your entire relationship. He is having emotional affairs that he wishes were physcial affairs. He just didn't have the balls to make a move on the other woman.

Or he lied he's been having physical affairs but doesn't want you to be upset so he lies. He seems to lie alot.

So what in the world is stopping you from leaving. I'd rather be alone than with someone like this.

How do you live with it? I guess you stop talking about it and pretend what he says is true.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

It’s completely possible to stop masturbating. He could still be lying anyway.

I mean the dude told you he would have cheated.


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## GG1061 (Apr 20, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> He is telling you “it’s up to you to leave” so he can play the victim. He’s trying to get YOU to leave so YOU file and YOU are the terrible woman who broke up the marriage. It’s why 80% or something of divorces are filed by women. He’s getting all the sex he wants and has a servant at home. He can go on this way forever and be fine. Only you are suffering and he is ok with it.
> Decide what you can live with.


I don't think he has gotten all the sex he wants as I would never mistake masturbation for sex. He has given himself orgasms while fantasizing about other women which is diverting his sexual attention from his wife and depriving her of true intimacy. It is sad he would exchange a self administered HJ while pining for the thought of another woman over real sex with a woman who wants to experience that with him. Besides, if he were in love with his wife and she were withholding (which she isn't) it would make sense to fantasize about her instead of other women during his alone time.

However, people use alcohol, drugs, gambling, etc. to escape the pressures of daily living instead of the diligent work in pursuing contentment.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

happiness27 said:


> hat's probably the thing I need to concentrate on - how I need to look at what it is in me that allows this to exist in my life.


Realizing ^^this^^ is the first step towards healing, leaving this jerk, and having a life you truly enjoy.

Sorry if I missed it, but are you in any type of counseling? Finding someone who can help you break free of this cycle will go a long way in you choosing a potential partner - if you decide to do so - who will treat you with dignity and respect.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

GG1061 said:


> I don't think he has gotten all the sex he wants as I would never mistake masturbation for sex. He has given himself orgasms while fantasizing about other women which is diverting his sexual attention from his wife and depriving her of true intimacy. It is sad he would exchange a self administered HJ while pining for the thought of another woman over real sex with a woman who wants to experience that with him. Besides, if he were in love with his wife and she were withholding (which she isn't) it would make sense to fantasize about her instead of other women during his alone time.
> 
> However, people use alcohol, drugs, gambling, etc. to escape the pressures of daily living instead of the diligent work in pursuing contentment.


This is only true if you believe his nonsense about his affairs only being “emotional.” Because I was born before yesterday, I do not. I’m pretty sure he’s getting all the sex he wants from these “emotional affairs.”


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## GG1061 (Apr 20, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> This is only true if you believe his nonsense about his affairs only being “emotional.” Because I was born before yesterday, I do not. I’m pretty sure he’s getting all the sex he wants from these “emotional affairs.”


I am sure, also, about not being purely emotional. His wife though did see him and was aware what he did at home so there was still a lot of alone time which doesn't come close to the real thing. If you're married and self-pleasuring when your wife is available and willing there's something's wrong. Not saying that as long as his wife is satisfied he is allowed his extracurriculars no matter in what form or fashion.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

happiness27 said:


> Hubs and I have been together 30 years.
> 
> ........he admitted that he would masturbate to other women. These scenarios often took the form of becoming emotionally attracted to this woman or that. One woman, he maintained an emotional connection with for 10 years, until I finally intervened.......... The relationship, in reality, was not sexual. But, for him, it took the form of a fantasy, as he finally admitted to me. While out of town, he had had dinner with her three times where they, after dinner, watched movies together and sat close together on her couch.* He said he was only waiting for her to make a move and then he would have had sex with her.* But she did not make enough of an overt move, he said, only sitting next to him with their legs touching.
> 
> ...





happiness27 said:


> Am I doing something really screwed up by* asking him to be honest with me about this? *
> 
> Just give it to me straight. *What in the hell would cause him to lie to me about thi*s. I have given him another option, which is to say: "I don't want to talk about it. It's private, it's personal and it's my business. It's not up as a topic of discussion." But he insists that he wants me to believe him when he says "I don't masturbate BECAUSE I want to have sex with YOU." But that doesn't happen either.
> 
> *FWIW, it took a huge leap of courage for me to post this discussion starter.* I am seeking outside input because I am at my wit's end. My brain can't see its own way through this.


First of all my heart goes out to you. You sound like you don't get meaningful sex with your husband of 30 years. Journaling to get things off your chest is good therapy. Yes, you were brave. Well done.

Your husband has clearly had emotional affairs (if not real physical affairs that he hasn't yet admitted) for much of your marriage. That is really horrible. I can really understand why you would want some real honesty. 

Since you have said you feel too old to start over and leave him, I would suggest that the two of you do some serious marriage counseling. Shop around for a good marriage counselor if you go that route. I would also suggest you read two books by MW David, Divorce Busting and the Sex Starved Wife. You might not feel as alone and you might find some inspirations and examples of things you might try, even if you feel you have tried everything (and your list soulds like you have tried likely too much already. Good luck.


You have posted so many questions, I am only going to address a few that you asked.



*Is it really possible for a man to give up masturbating AND sex with their partner?*
Yes. At age 70+, I know men who because of either a poorly done prostate surgery or medications with side effects litterally have no sex and no desire for Sex. M.W. Davis discusses women who are in Sex Starved Marriages and it is not as uncommon as you might think I suggest you get the book.


*...for a man who used to masturbate daily to say "I don't masturbate any more and haven't for a year." Is this real? Can a man actually do this?*
It probably depends on the man. Some men with impotence can still masturbate. Other men can have prostate orgasms. It would probably take a lot of trust, and careful discussion to find out if there is something that you can do to help bring him to orgasm. In theory you should be able to bring him to orgasm manually, if he can relax enough and go with the feelings. Some sex therapists (marriage counselors with extra training in sexual problems people have) will often recommend stopping sex for a month or so and doing Sensate focus exercises to bring sensuality back into the relationship. Then gradually add sex back.. You might want to look into that.
*.........The second thing I want to know is: What do I need to do at this point? We are MUCH older and leaving is not an option for either of us.*
That is a hard question to respond to. My first suggestion would be to work on "healing yourself." As MW Davis advises, "Get a Life." GIL is actually code words for doing things that make you feel better about yourself, more confident and happier. Exercise is a good natural anti-depressant. Have you ever thought about a Couch to 5-K exercise program? One of the things I learned from a Gottman's weekend relationship workshop is that there is a concept call emotional flooding. This is where in a discussion one party will get "triggered" by something the other person says. When that happens their body goes into an adrenaline fueled "fight or flight" response. When you become flooded with adrenaline, you can't really think straight or calmly, so a conversation is impossible. The Gottmans suggest that when that happens during a discussion between a couple that they need to call a "time out" and try to restart the conversation on another day. I suspect that your H is getting emotionally flooded by some of this. Again, getting some professional help from a really good board certified sex therapist or marriage counselor can help you work through some of these things.
*What do I need to do at this point? We are MUCH older and leaving is not an option for either of us.*
If leaving is not an option then you are at a decision point. You really can't rebuild your marriage by yourself. Ultimately your H will need to commit to and want to rebuild it as well. Again, getting some professional help improves your chances, but doesn't guarantee you will both get the marriage you want. Having said that M.W. Davis approach does have some suggestions on 180's you can do that will change the dynamic in your marriage, by your changing the way you allow yourself to be treated and how you respond to things your H does. These 180's will make him realize that the way he has interacted with you has changed. At that point he may change for the better or for the worse how he treats you. If it is for the better, you need to give him positive feedback. If it is for the worse you need to try something different. Think of it as a high stakes game of trial and error. When my wife was 68 she drifted away until I was in a sex starved marriage. We nearly divorced, but got back togther and I am sharing some of the things that worked for us. They may not work for you.
*.......Do men really give up masturbation for good or am I being asked to buy into a lie again?*
It probably depends on the man and if there is a medical or psychological reason. I would think it would be very hard, You probably know your husband better than anyone else. One of the things that Dr. David Schnarch likes to say is that long term marriage partners can communicate more with their tone of voice, a facial expression, or body language than a young dating couple can during a night of talking together. Your instinct developed after 30 years of marriage probably knows the answer.
*....Do I take another chance and believe him for the sake of moving forward and starting over? Again?*
That is totally up to you. For me, when I was in a sex starved marriage. I came to the conclusion that I needed to try to save it. I still loved her and I wanted the marriage to work. So I felt it was worth the effort. I worked on healing myself and becoming more confident in me. I also learned a lot about relationships and read just about every relationship book I could find. Then I started to try to implement some of the lessons to make my wife feel more loved and cherished, without demanding anything in return. That was hard, but it paid dividends. Then we found a great Sex Therapist/Marriage Counselor. That is when real progress started to happen. Before we started Sex Therapy I posted a lot on the MW Davis website and got help from a lot of great folks struggling like I was. Eventually a bunch of us got kicked off because we talked about other relationship experts who were not Davis. Several of them came to TAM. I followed. Posting helped me a lot. Bottom line was that I had promised myself that I was going to be in a loving sexual relationship by a certain birthday in my mid-60's. I wanted it to be with my wife, but if she couldn't do that, I would divorce her and find someone else. I never threatened her with divorce. I was just implementing a plan to heal myself and learn about relationships. That way if our marriage was healed, I would be very happy (which I was) and if it couldn't, then I would be less likely to fall into the same kind of failed relationship with some future partner. My advice is to try, but to realize it might not work and that if it doesn't you have options once you have healed yourself.
*Am I doing something really screwed up by asking him to be honest with me about this? *
What you are asking for is reasonable. How you are asking it may not be. Again, you might want to read about emotional flooding. He has a lot to be ashamed of and has lied to you for a long time. His guilt could be overwhelming. I just don't know.
*Just give it to me straight. What in the hell would cause him to lie to me about this.*
The list of things is endless, from medical reasons, guilt, an STD, deep mental problems on his part. deciding to sabotage this marriage either consciously or subconsciously, etc..

I sincerely hope this helps. I suggest that after you have tried some things start a post about you and update your situation in the Sex and Marriage section and tell about things you tried, things that worked, things that didn't work, hopes, fears and frustrations. Getting it off your chest helps, or at least it helped me over a decade ago. 

I wish you the best of luck.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Extremely helpful of you to give me so many detailed options! This gives me a lot of hope.

We did have quite a bit of therapy for about a year from an excellent marriage counselor-therapist. It's a pretty overwhelming set of issues. I think both people have to see a need for proactive changes. 

Also, one thing to keep in mind that few of us realize is that between an assertive partner and a passive-aggressive partner, the latter is the more powerful, always. It can be extremely difficult to be in a relationship with a PA - because PA is very effective.


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## ShatteredKat (Mar 23, 2016)

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Dirty Harry: "Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one."


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

At the beginning, OP wrote:


happiness27 said:


> *Let me just say that I feel like masturbation is an absolute right of an individual. Totally okay. Totally fine. *But when it interferes with the sexual relationship in a couple, that becomes a red flag that there is something that needs to be addressed in the relationship.


Her problem is her husband CLAIMS he doesn't choke the chicken. But he also isn't responding to her desire for sex with him. She doesn't disagree with or have any problem with her husband whacking as much as he wants, so long as he will also engage with her. Masturbation isn't the issue for her ( evidently it is for some females ). The problem is he is lying to her, gaslighting her, and fantasizing about other women while ignoring her and not meeting her needs. Because of the time she has invested and reluctance to start over, she asks advice about fixing things so she gets some fun in between him romancing his hand. He tells her he ISNT whacking the mole, while at the same time NOT doing his wife.


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## damo7 (Jul 16, 2020)

You're being ridiculous. ALL MEN do this. Either you want a liar or to be alone. YOU CANNOT tell him what to do with HIS OWN BODY. This is abuse, I'd leave you in a heartbeat.


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## damo7 (Jul 16, 2020)

Rus47 said:


> At the beginning, OP wrote:
> 
> Her problem is her husband CLAIMS he doesn't choke the chicken. But he also isn't responding to her desire for sex with him. She doesn't disagree with or have any problem with her husband whacking as much as he wants, so long as he will also engage with her. Masturbation isn't the issue for her ( evidently it is for some females ). The problem is he is lying to her, gaslighting her, and fantasizing about other women while ignoring her and not meeting her needs. Because of the time she has invested and reluctance to start over, she asks advice about fixing things so she gets some fun in between him romancing his hand. He tells her he ISNT whacking the mole, while at the same time NOT doing his wife.


It seems her problem is that he masturbates and thinks of other women. Fictional women, pictures of women - almost every male does this. He'd do it single. It doesnt involve interaction with anyone else. 
I've been with a woman like this and I'm so glad I left her. I thought I was being a good partner by being honest and open, that is what I wanted from a relationship - and she crapped all over me for it. Never again.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

"It seems her problem is that he masturbates and thinks of other women." Nope. The problem is that he substitutes these fantasies for the real live relationship. And the fantasy women aren't fantasies. They are real-life women he interacts with. They became points of sexual focus - for months, sometimes years. This became the substitute for real sex.

When asked about why he's not having real sex with his real wife, he lies and says he's not having any kind of sex.

Lying is the issue. Lack of sex in our relationship is the issue.

Being able to talk about sex in a relationship is a common problem in relationships. It can be a very vulnerable, painful topic for some people. Substituting a "safe" way to have an orgasm can interfere with the real relationship. And sexual issues can be an indicator that the relationship (or even just that one partner) has problems that could be addressed and resolved if talking about it could shed light on something that is resolvable - by the other partner having enough information that the other partner would actually understand if given the reality of what the secretive partner is not wanting to talk about.

Flip it around. Say, your real life partner is fantasizing about some dude or dudes instead of having sex with you. Really quickly, you'd be wanting to address the lack of sex. And if your partner was telling you there's nothing wrong, she just doesn't feel like having sex, you'd be, like...huh? After awhile of not having sex, you'd be faced with a choice: either accept that you aren't going to be having sex or press the issue to attempt to resolve it - or, yeah, find some other way to have sex.

A dead bedroom that has no discussed reason (health issue, for instance) behind it is a dead relationship. This is concerning. And if your partner is gaslighting you, that's even more concerning.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

To address "all men do this" - "all people do this (masturbate)" - there, fixed that.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Lying is the issue. Lack of sex in our relationship is the issue.


I've only skimmed through this thread, so my advice may NOT be that helpful. There was a comment about passive aggressive behavior being too effective which made me laugh (as I know some super passive aggressive people). 

First of all if your husband has a known history of self pleasure and thinking of other women, he allowed you to discover that. I am not sure if he spoke openly about it or if you caught him, but odds are he wanted you to know. He claiming he can stop is likely a lie, not intentionally but more so because it is unrealistic and difficult for someone to change who they are.

My advice is that you should consider becoming more involved in his self exploration. There is a category of porn called "JOI" if you want to research explicitly how some women might talk dirty to a spouse. Skimming through your posts it seems as if your husband enjoys self exploration to please himself but awkwardly has little interest in actually pleasing other women sexually (since he limits himself to emotional affairs). Why is this? Probably because he fears that he will be a failure at actually pleasing a woman sexually so perhaps best to just imagine that part. That way he can focus physically on himself in terms of pleasuring someone and enjoy his moments alone. 

So with that in mind, try and appreciate that your husband is good at pleasing himself. Ask yourself how could you use that knowledge in a way that brings the two of you closer? Well first you could claim that he is not allowed to please you sexually, as that will probably mess with his head a little and get his attention. It is a rather passive aggressive move as well, but one that will twist his anxiety about not being able to please a woman (IF that is how he feels). Then you have to claim that you want to take more control over his self exploration and guide him on what to do. Since he is so good at pleasing himself, this will get his curiosity because perhaps there is an opportunity for him to learn something new by allowing you to try this. Ultimately what is happening is that you are invading his world of self pleasure and passive aggressively pleasuring him by telling him what he can and can NOT do to pleasure himself. Be very clever about giving him something to enjoy but then be exquisite of placing limitations on it. An example might be to tell him that he can enjoy something as much as he wants, but he can only climax with your permission and for that he needs to come to you and beg. Then you tell him that if he begs you that you will stop being playful with him and that he will have to stop self pleasuring all together. 

By getting involved in his self pleasure playfully, it will serve to bring him closer to you. His talent of pleasuring himself will become directed at working to learn how to enjoy thinking of you and enjoy being married to you. Hopefully at some point things heat up in the bedroom when the two fo you are together and become mutually enjoyable.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I really don't understand how you managed to put up with this crap for all these years. I don't have any advice, since you don't want to leave him. He is not going to change.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> To address "all men do this" - "all people do this (masturbate)" - there, fixed that.


Fwiw, Catholics don’t or shouldn’t if they want to be true to the teachings of the church. I don’t and successfully rooted this bad habit out of my life decades ago. People can live very happily without it… makes you appreciate your spouse more and work harder to keep your relationship with them healthy… you can’t just run off to masturbate when your spouse is being a jerk. 😆


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

badsanta said:


> I've only skimmed through this thread, so my advice may NOT be that helpful. There was a comment about passive aggressive behavior being too effective which made me laugh (as I know some super passive aggressive people).
> 
> First of all if your husband has a known history of self pleasure and thinking of other women, he allowed you to discover that. I am not sure if he spoke openly about it or if you caught him, but odds are he wanted you to know. He claiming he can stop is likely a lie, not intentionally but more so because it is unrealistic and difficult for someone to change who they are.
> 
> ...


You've got to be kidding me. You know, your advice lately has truly jumped the shark.

Have you been tested for a brain tumor? I'm being serious, not facetious, btw. My ex MIL was quite the same when she suddenly started saying very strange things.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> I really don't understand how you managed to put up with this crap for all these years. I don't have any advice, since you don't want to leave him. He is not going to change.


I read a book on fantasies and how common certain fantasies are. The most common is "partner replacement" as a fantasy that provides an erotic thrill. Almost for sure that everyone has that fantasy at some point. 

Another interesting version of that fantasy is when we replace ourselves or a spouse with a better version of the same person. Perhaps we imagine ourselves in better physical shape, more youthful, and full of energy and we imagine our spouse not only able to read our minds but very accepting of our every desire. 

Ultimately that fantasy is an exploration of trying to find something about yourself to improve and identifying what it is. As a result perhaps people run out and sign up for gym memberships or buying beauty products to try and realize at least a part of this fantasy to feel good and confident. 

Can that type of fantasy be redirected into making your marriage into something healthier and stronger much like going to the gym? I do think so, but the way to do it is to be aware of the dynamics of these fantasies and see if they can be pushed in a healthy direction for the marriage. 

How many wives indirectly participate in their husband's self exploration? Oh he watches porn and ignores the wife you say, well what if the wife got him some tenga eggs, a jar of coconut oil, and encouraged him to enjoy that while imagining what to buy with a playful budget to go pick out some novelties online for the bedroom. The amount budgeted is for the wife to spend and he has to ask her for what to buy. 

So in that exercise above the husband is encouraged to think about the wife and work on improving how to communicate his desires to her. Of course he may imagine her willing to do something with a novelty that may make her uncomfortable, but it is best to try and communicate some of those ideas and at least discuss them. An example might be the husband suggesting to buy revealing lingerie that the wife does not feel confident enough to wear, and perhaps the husband convinces her that she is indeed sexy enough to wear it. 

Yes the relationship is in a messy state and working to make it better may be futile. But the husband so far has only self explored with the fantasy of another women. Not as bad as going out and actually having sex in addition to getting emotionally involved. So perhaps there is a chance.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> I've only skimmed through this thread, so my advice may NOT be that helpful. There was a comment about passive aggressive behavior being too effective which made me laugh (as I know some super passive aggressive people).
> 
> First of all if your husband has a known history of self pleasure and thinking of other women, he allowed you to discover that. I am not sure if he spoke openly about it or if you caught him, but odds are he wanted you to know. He claiming he can stop is likely a lie, not intentionally but more so because it is unrealistic and difficult for someone to change who they are.
> 
> ...



Repeat: I have zero problem with my husband's self-pleasure. I feel like writing this 1000 times for everyone in the back who hasn't seen that.

I just want him to stop the lying. I hate lying. Don't say "I only want to have sex with YOU." Then, not do that either.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Keep in mind you can only change yourself; the things you do and what you accept. You can't make your husband over into someone other than who he wants to be. If he's not cooperating or communicating that he's trying to meet you halfway, you're not going to accomplish anything.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> I read a book on fantasies and how common certain fantasies are. The most common is "partner replacement" as a fantasy that provides an erotic thrill. Almost for sure that everyone has that fantasy at some point.
> 
> Another interesting version of that fantasy is when we replace ourselves or a spouse with a better version of the same person. Perhaps we imagine ourselves in better physical shape, more youthful, and full of energy and we imagine our spouse not only able to read our minds but very accepting of our every desire.
> 
> ...



Some of the issue is that there's a tendency to look at this from his viewpoint of desire and not take into account my own viewpoint of desire. My anatomy may not be exterior or as obvious but it's just as worth pleasuring. And it doesn't take a D to do that. 

I feel like I have been the one to initiate tons of pleasurable ideas FOR HIM - ideas that if I shared them here with this forum, there would likely be a bunch of members who would be "OH. WOW. OKAY. NEVERMIND." 

I have no issues with confidence in bed.

It's an interesting rationale that it's "not as bad as going out and actually having sex" He also thinks this is true. But ask anyone who has had to deal with fantasy sexual attachments - the disconnect with the relationship is a huge wedge between the two people in the relationship.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

"Keep in mind you can only change yourself; the things you do and what you accept. You can't make your husband over into someone other than who he wants to be. If he's not cooperating or communicating that he's trying to meet you halfway, you're not going to accomplish anything."


I agree.

Living in a physical affection-deprived relationship is brutal.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Repeat: I have zero problem with my husband's self-pleasure. I feel like writing this 1000 times for everyone in the back who hasn't seen that.
> 
> I just want him to stop the lying. I hate lying. Don't say "I only want to have sex with YOU." Then, not do that either.


Yeah, the masturbators will never shut up even if you did write it 1000 times. 😂


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

I think that relationships are, well, "ships" - maybe that's the reason for that part of the word. Sometimes you think the relationship is cruising along just fine on autopilot. But then you find yourself in troubled waters without knowing how you got there.

People think the more extroverted partner is in charge - but don't kid yourself, the passive partner holds the controls.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> "Keep in mind you can only change yourself; the things you do and what you accept. You can't make your husband over into someone other than who he wants to be. If he's not cooperating or communicating that he's trying to meet you halfway, you're not going to accomplish anything."
> 
> 
> I agree.
> ...


I completely understand.

I experienced quite a bit of what you have with my exH. It was a soul-killing experience. I didn't realize how much it affected me until we went our separate ways and I started feeling like myself again.

It's insulting and wounding to a woman to be with a "man" who'd rather diddle himself than be with you. It doesn't matter why he does it, it's extremely selfish and unloving.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

TXTrini said:


> I completely understand.
> 
> I experienced quite a bit of what you have with my exH. It was a soul-killing experience. I didn't realize how much it affected me until we went our separate ways and I started feeling like myself again.
> 
> It's insulting and wounding to a woman to be with a "man" who'd rather diddle himself than be with you. It doesn't matter why he does it, it's extremely selfish and unloving.


Yes, it feels unloving. 

What's maddening is when words don't match the body language. Body language never lies.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> Yes, it feels unloving.
> 
> What's maddening is when words don't match the body language. Body language never lies.


What do you expect now, though?

I re-read your post, your H has been having emotional affairs with other women for your entire marriage and using them for his "spank bank".

He's an old dog who seems to be unable to learn new tricks. I don't know what to tell you, except to stop expecting him to be any different from what he is and move on with your life.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

TXTrini said:


> What do you expect now, though?
> 
> I re-read your post, your H has been having emotional affairs with other women for your entire marriage and using them for his "spank bank".
> 
> He's an old dog who seems to be unable to learn new tricks. I don't know what to tell you, except to stop expecting him to be any different from what he is and move on with your life.


Yes, I know you are right. I came here mainly to double check my gaslighted brain if guys actually give up masturbation or if this was just another lie he's determined to get me to buy into. 

I would love to have found real love in my life. It seems like something that would be really cool.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> Yes, I know you are right. I came here mainly to double check my gaslighted brain if guys actually give up masturbation or if this was just another lie he's determined to get me to buy into.
> 
> I would love to have found real love in my life. It seems like something that would be really cool.


When you live with that for so long, it's hard to imagine the other side. There are certainly no guarantees, so no one can promise sunshine and rainbows. 

I don't know your husband, so I can't say if it's maliciousness or he's trying to make himself feel less guilty if what he's done is not so bad. You know him though, and at least he's actually talked to you, so you have some idea of what he's thinking. 

Is he willing to put it all out there and go to MC with you? If so, maybe you have some hope, but if he just shuts you down and gaslights you, then all you can do is look out for yourself.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Extremely helpful of you to give me so many detailed options! This gives me a lot of hope.
> 
> We did have quite a bit of therapy for about a year from an excellent marriage counselor-therapist. It's a pretty overwhelming set of issues. I think both people have to see a need for proactive changes.
> 
> Also, one thing to keep in mind that few of us realize is that between an assertive partner and a passive-aggressive partner, the latter is the more powerful, always. It can be extremely difficult to be in a relationship with a PA - because PA is very effective.


However PA works only as long as the other spouse goes along. PA folks are PA until they get left, for being pitas.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

TXTrini said:


> When you live with that for so long, it's hard to imagine the other side. There are certainly no guarantees, so no one can promise sunshine and rainbows.
> 
> I don't know your husband, so I can't say if it's maliciousness or he's trying to make himself feel less guilty if what he's done is not so bad. You know him though, and at least he's actually talked to you, so you have some idea of what he's thinking.
> 
> Is he willing to put it all out there and go to MC with you? If so, maybe you have some hope, but if he just shuts you down and gaslights you, then all you can do is look out for yourself.


We've been to MC - years ago when a lot of things really came crashing down. But, good liars can snowball even great marriage counselors. The solution at that time was to give him a method of putting his wandering thoughts into a little box putting it out to sea. It didn't work. The wake up call I gave him got his attention for a few months and he was scrambling to make these big declarations of "never again"

It's a very embedded habit with him. And yes, I know him well. We actually come from eerily similar backgrounds of childhood SA and almost identical parent models (passive mother, overbearing father). I identified with my OB father and he apparently chose to identify with his P mother. Keeping secrets was a survival mechanism for him. For me, it's the opposite: I hate secrets.

So, I fit into him like a key into a lock. I can say what he is terrified to say. I may be his relief valve. But - I'm also scary because I'm always shining lights into dark corners.

Childhood SA creates a lifetime of damage. For some, it's extremely difficult to resolve the shame experienced, no matter how much therapy you go through. It's the moral dilemma of: "It's not right, but it feels good."


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> However PA works only as long as the other spouse goes along. PA folks are PA until they get left, for being pitas.


I don't even know if PA are ever helped any other way than to just be left. They always find new victims because it's easy to find people who are rescuer personalities.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Strictly to the asking question: 
*Should I believe my husband that he gave up masturbating? *No. Does a hungry fox will not enter an open coop with all the chicken in there?


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

So sorry sister. I guess that explains why hubby seems to locked into this old sin and can’t break free no matter what. I think I only overcame my habit by being accountable to my priest and frequently receiving the sacraments…. guess my fear of hell helped too. I’m sure it’s unlikely anyone with a PA past like that could believe in a loving God the Father…. perhaps the saddest part of all. 😢


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> It's an interesting rationale that it's "not as bad as going out and actually having sex" He also thinks this is true. But ask anyone who has had to deal with fantasy sexual attachments - the disconnect with the relationship is a huge wedge between the two people in the relationship.


This thread resonates with me because at one point I had an emotional affair and that did drive a wedge between my wife and I. Fortunately I did not lie about it or hide it which allowed my wife to get upset and put an end to it. 

Reflecting on my own emotional affair and the notion of partner replacement, I am 100% certain that I replaced the woman which I was having an emotional affair with into a version of someone that I needed her to be fantasy wise. So even though I was talking to a real woman, my fantasy was still a fantasy of a fantasy and NOT me focusing on the reality of a real person. 

Yes that can put a HUGE wedge on your relationship and pull your husband into an existential sexual fantasy that is difficult to pull him back. So what things helped reconnect me with reality and reconnect me with my wife? (I paused here to really reflect) My wife is a rather academic person and she encouraged me to order any book I wanted on sexuality as long as it was written by someone with a doctorate degree and has respectable reviews. Once I found something of interest in these books my wife encouraged me to share that with her. As a result we had a lot of really productive conversations about the sexual health of our marriage and an awareness of how to better manage it so that things wouldn't be stressful. I remember feeling as though the key element of this time period was feeling like we were working together as a team to improve things. I also remember during this time feeling a great sense of respect to work primarily on improving "trust" and "communication" above all other things. 

Now onto the lying and gaslighting. While I am sure the nature of your husband's lies are different than my own, the one dynamic that caused miscommunications and misinformation in my marriage was the dynamic of shame and guilt. I used to feel ashamed of my sexual desires and guilty that I had to hide things from my wife, but I made an effort to change that and just start sharing EVERYTHING. A funny thing that happened was that my wife did not reject the things that I was ashamed of, but she did struggle to understand a few things. I too struggled to understand myself and why I liked certain things. But keeping open channels of communication along with my wife encouraging me to read really helped me to better understand myself and communicate better. Today the subject nature of my wildest fantasies are something that my wife would describe as, "well if I knew it was going to be that easy to please you, I wish I could have learned that a long time ago." She now enjoys catering to my fantasies as it turns out they are simple little nuances that require no effort for her but make things thermonuclear for me.

OK, well I am a guy, what about my wife? Generally speaking my wife used to be under a tremendous amount of stress and she decided to make a career change. As a result she has gotten in touch with herself and started pursuing some things in life that in general make her into a much happier person. She stopped holding me responsible for her happiness and instead decided I was the person she wanted to share her own happiness with when she is in a good mood. She has encouraged me to follow a similar path and focus on things that I enjoy and share those with her. Emotionally we are very independent from one another now and enjoy our time together sharing something positive with one another. Not everyday is great, but we know that we are each responsible for our own wellbeing and we also work to help each other strive to be a healthier version of ourself. We encourage each other to take care of our health and we often exercise together. OK, but this has nothing to do with sex? Well it has everything to do with sex, because my wife wants to know that if she works on taking care of herself that I will be around for many years to share a long life together and not die of a heart attack from eating too many cheeseburgers. That is what she needs in the bedroom to allow herself to feel invested in our relationship and enjoy it as opposed to worrying about it. 

I think I am rambling now... 

My one point is that if you love your husband, find a way to help him let go of any guilt or shame that he is carrying. Let him feel that you accept who he is and help him redirect his energy into enjoying your marriage. It isn't easy. You likely need to care for your own happiness and try to share that with him when you are able both in general and in the bedroom. If he has a hobby but doesn't feel he deserves to spend money on himself in order to enjoy it, encourage him to pursue it. Hopefully he can learn to do the same for you as part of this journey.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Childhood SA creates a lifetime of damage. For some, it's extremely difficult to resolve the shame experienced, no matter how much therapy you go through. It's the moral dilemma of: "It's not right, but it feels good."


That is a topic I have seen discussed but never read about in any of the books I have studied. Perhaps there are some well written books on that topic that you and your husband can read and discuss. The neat thing about books is that anything of interest is something the "author" wrote about and the two of you can debate if the author is correct or an idiot. At no time does one feel too vulnerable doing that and it can lead to some extremely constructive and insightful discussions in your marriage. 

I do strongly recommend that strategy!

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

It sounds like hubby doesn’t feel guilt or shame and needs to- regarding his own behavior and choices _today_. I mean, he can’t do anything about the past but he can decide to NOT use others for his own sexual gratification. I think he views his masturbation fantasies as victimless however there is a victim and it’s his wife and marriage. He should feel guilt, shame, and remorse and use that to make better choices going forward. My two cents.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

badsanta said:


> This thread resonates with me because at one point I had an emotional affair and that did drive a wedge between my wife and I. Fortunately I did not lie about it or hide it which allowed my wife to get upset and put an end to it.


AH, this explains a lot.

OP, up to you if you want to contort yourself to do the pick-me-dance for a lying cheat.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I was married for a long time to a passive-aggressive serial cheater. I was a very slow learner and didn’t pull the plug on my marriage until much later because of all the promises (lies) that things would be different, that he had learned his lesson, blah, blah, blah, if only I would stay. Looking back, it’s easy to see the pattern which was that he would change for a short time but ultimately he would return to who he really was. Temporary change is usually easy. Permanent change is usually not.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

CatholicDad said:


> I’m sure it’s unlikely anyone with a PA past like that could believe in a loving God the Father…. perhaps the saddest part of all.


If a reformed masturbator can believe, why can’t someone with a PA past?

As for the OP’s question I certainly believe it’s possible to stop doing it. Whether he has or not, who knows?


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> If a reformed masturbator can believe, why can’t someone with a PA past?
> 
> As for the OP’s question I certainly believe it’s possible to stop doing it. Whether he has or not, who knows?


I think the theory is that we as fathers are our childrens first model of God the father to our children. If someone has an abusive father- it’s harder for them to accept the reality of a loving God. All I meant…


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

So many people here have been generously sharing of your time and thoughts. These are topics that are very difficult to share one on one with trusted friends. It's a difficult burden for some people to keep conversations like this to themselves. But they are highly intimate and potentially destructive if shared beyond the friendship. So, this limits where important discussions like this can take place.

Being kind and yet forthright and helpful in this type of discussion can lead to a better situation for the people sharing here. And I thank each and every one of you for your valuable time and sharing. 

It is extremely difficult to regain trust that has been repeatedly broken. It appears to me at this point that I need to let go of hanging on to my viewpoint of feeling harmed. This is only my viewpoint and, frankly it is only true because I paint it as such. If I can let go of this - and understand that the feeling of being harmed in this case is based on my perception. This is something I can change because I have control over my own perceptions. 

Love is an amazing thing. Love can heal everything. I am capable of greater love, unselfish love. My challenge is knowing that I can love without boundaries or restrictions, but I am stuck in the thinking: "But it's not fair" and "I want."

There's a story I read that involves perspective. It's basically about a guy who complains about his wife and her unloving attitude towards him - and how could he change her? Should he just leave her? It was hopeless.

Then, it was suggested to him that he put on a new pair of glasses. And start seeing her in a positive light. I'll shorten the story to jump to the part where, after some time passed, his wife's demeanor towards him changed. She softened and became warmer towards him and their relationship was better and better. 

This simple change in perception he made (okay, not so simple to corral his thoughts differently...but he did), was more powerful than anything else. And they were able to make their relationship better because he started seeing her in a positive light instead of fostering the negative perception of her. Read: "the wolf you feed"

I am clinging to old insults and resentments. This is the contribution I am making to the problem - and the thing about this situation over which I have control. I can change my perception, I can work on myself. I don't have to see everything as an insult and refer it back to "that time when you...(fill in the blank)" - I can start from now and do the work that is my own personal life challenge: to love someone who is broken.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

"If a reformed masturbator can believe, why can’t someone with a PA past?

As for the OP’s question I certainly believe it’s possible to stop doing it. Whether he has or not, who knows?"

I know this man extremely well. As I've said, our backgrounds are eerily similar. Both of us lived with extremely similar primary families. Both of us suffered through CSA. Even the MC we worked with admitted that this kind of CSA experience created a lifetime of damage. We are both very angry and ashamed of what happened to us when we were trusting and vulnerable in our youth. It carries over into adulthood in insidious ways. The fear of intimacy is overwhelming for both of us. We both lash out in our respective ways - pushing each other away out of fear perceptions that are like a web that captures and preserves our fears for later consumption. We both cultivate these fears because we just don't know any other way to deal with them besides clinging and slinging - back and forth - until we are both just exhausted, battered, dirty and torn from the futility of fear-based battle.

Is it easier to leave? I'll tell you one thing I've learned about how the Universe works in this human life: all of us WILL get the same challenges over and over until we face them down and choose differently. IMHO, the Universe is all about embracing Love. Sounds so easy. But I am so hard-headed about this. I am such a fighter. Through being able to talk about this, I can see that I am fighting ghosts. I am fighting all these past hurts that I could not fight as a child.

To get a better picture of what this means, I will tell you one of the demons that haunts me. During the course of my CSA, at one point, the abuser lured me down to his bedroom in the basement and he had brought some of his friends with him. I knew them also. He picked me up by my neck and my crotch and threw me on his bed. I was terrified. I had no idea his or their intentions. He had apparently shared with them that he was secretly molesting me. I sat crying on his bed and they all stood over me laughing. I looked at him and saw his evil grin. I realized I was in physical danger but also massive emotional betrayal. I screamed and fought and got out of there. I don't know where I went except out of the room and surely up the stairs to escape them. There was no one to tell that I remember helping me at all. Either my parents were not home or I ran off by myself. I don't have a recollection of where I went after that or what happened.
I just know that everything that he was doing with and to me was a crazy secret. I was a child and really didn't understand what any of it was about. This was a long time ago and at a time when I had never even heard the word "sex." I was nine.

When I was an adult - much later in life, and when he had a fiancé, we were at a family gathering and he was giving me verbal grief over something I don't remember and I felt powerful enough at that point to tell him to back off his b.s. His girlfriend was standing there and maybe he just wanted to show off - but I decided to play a trump card and told him if he didn't stop harassing me, I was "going to tell" - and he told his girlfriend to wait for him outside - and she walked away. Then, he said: "What are you talking about?" and I said "You KNOW what I'm talking about" and he pretended to not know. But I stood up to him and he backed down. I did see a flash of fear come across his face in that moment and he looked away. He knew. And he was finally facing the adult I had grown into from the child he abused and could no longer predictably control.

Eventually I told my mother about the abuse - and my siblings - at that point I was in my 30s. My mother's reaction was: "You aren't going to tell everyone else in the family, are you?" My sisters just blew it off. He has lived his whole life in the safety of me not being believed or supported. We no longer speak and have not for many years. He will never acknowledge what he has done, not even privately to me. He's a coward, a liar and a thief of innocence.

My husband's CSA was just as awful. But it's his story to tell. We both are very aware of the other's hurt, pain and past. It's extremely difficult to navigate our relationship towards trust when, early on in our lives, trust was shattered by abusers. This is the challenge both of us face.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

happiness27 said:


> My sisters just blew it off. He has lived his whole life in the safety of me not being believed or supported. We no longer speak and have not for many years. *He will never acknowledge what he has done*, not even privately to me. He's a coward, a liar and a thief of innocence.


How terrible to live with this your whole life! Especially with mother and sisters not supporting you. The men present when he lured you to his basement were witnesses and co-predators. He and they can still be called to account, *forced *to acknowledge their evil. There may be other children he did this to, who also are suffering. Aren't there support organizations that will help CSA survivors?


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## Angie?or… (Nov 15, 2021)

@happiness27 I am so sorry that happened to you. Fellow CSA survivor here. We do end up with demons to fight. And how awful not to be believed and supported. I hope you and your husband can find ways to support one another.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

I once heard this: "Sometimes we just need someone to listen long enough for us to solve our own problems."

Because of the highly sensitive nature of this discussion plus COVID plus the long expense of going to a therapist and my long history of ALREADY going through this discussion in therapy, I chose to discuss this here.

Because of the kind, compassionate and helpful responses here, I made a decision to take a look at the only part of this I could control: my own contribution to the problem. And my main contribution to the problem has been: hanging on to resentment.

So, we had a conversation recently, in the best way we knew how and aired what we were feeling.

Both of us agreed that the "no sex" was an undesirable state to be in and was indicative of deeper marital issues. Then, we listened to what the other had to say about why this was happening.

It wasn't a clean, pretty conversation but I think both of us felt heard at least. He said he didn't think I loved him. I said I didn't think he loved me. Both of us admitted to resenting the other for various reasons.

What I learned from that conversation and from being able to discuss things here was that - I needed to put on a different pair of glasses. Hanging on to the resentments of the past continuously paints all of my present perceptions.

I had to let go. This is something I can control.

He really has - over the past year - made a great deal of effort to attack the issue of meandering thoughts. This kind of behavior is connected with a form of sex addiction - and sex addiction is a dysfunctional solution to anxiety and depression. It's also a coping mechanism that throws back to CSA.

His decision to change was not quick or easy. It took a very long time and a lot of realizations, introspection and observation of himself - not being the man he wants to be or thinks he is.

There is much more to our conversation where we both really just are exhausted from fighting about this. The fight literally sounds the same every time - with never a resolution, never a solution.

Once he was able to honestly admit that he didn't feel love from me - I had to admit to myself that my resentment was the cause of that. He has apologized over and over for it and I have kept bringing it up and insisting on stoking that fire.

I spent the past two days letting myself behave in more loving ways towards him while practicing letting go of resentments. We both put our emotions out there for the other to see. I told him in more detail the extent of CSA that I suffered - and why his secret-keeping strummed that old chord of emotional terror in me. I know his story as well and I know he completely understands that emotional terror - of being helpless with someone bigger and stronger who has nefarious intent. Sexual abuse is some of the most damaging of abuses to suffer as a child.

These are extremely painful conversations to have and extremely difficult damage to try and repair. I just wanted to share that because of being able to talk to this group, I feel like I found the support and strength to make a different choice - the choice to examine my own role and to change my actions, corral my negative thinking - and rely on some faith to heal my marriage.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> *Once he was able to honestly admit that he didn't feel love from me* - I had to admit to myself that my resentment was the cause of that. He has apologized over and over for it and I have kept bringing it up and insisting on stoking that fire.


In my opinion that can be a rather difficult topic to address. Admitting to feeling unloved and/or unloving toward a spouse. But step back and take in the big picture of what that conversation means. I is a huge door of opportunity to become aware and work together something that will make a huge difference. Ultimately you both want to know how to love one another, but it can be difficult to do that as life progresses and what someone needs to feel loved often changes. 

A big turning point in arguments with my wife was that I conveyed that I did not feel loved by her and that the progression of that made me care for her less and less. I told her that feeling myself care less about her was what hurt the most because I placed an extremely high value on my desire and joy to be with her. This began a process of us working together as a team to better understand what we needed from one another to feel loved. Perhaps cliche is the book on love languages as in my opinion it gets way more complicated than that, but that is a good starting point for those conversations. 

I'll share along this topic as it may be helpful for you with regards to sex in marriage. For me I needed my wife to accept and appreciate that I enjoy having a strong appetite for sex. Historically she has struggled to empathize with that because her desire for intimacy works very differently from mine. She would see my desire for her as completely arbitrary as if it was something I had done to myself (perhaps by watching porn or something) and then making her take responsibility for it. This would be upsetting to her and create a ton of anxiety for me because my desire for her was being rejected and dismissed as if it was something unneeded and unwanted that caused problems. So in my marriage I have had to take a long look and reflect on my desire and try and share and attribute exactly how it works so that she can clearly understand me sexually. I am not exactly holding her responsible to satisfy my desire, but simply to accept and enjoy that it can be a positive source of energy in our marriage. In doing so I am open to pushing myself to better understand what it is she needs to feel loved and to direct my desire at helping her with those things. 

Interestingly enough her desire simply needs to see me working to improve myself and take better care of my health. She wants to see me emotionally invest myself into things that as a couple we agree are worth that investment of emotional energy (as opposed to allowing myself to get upset over something stupid). She also wants me to invest more time into being a better friend so that we enjoy having fun together. 

When I stop and reflect on what it is my wife needs from me, I now sincerely feel that she loves and cares for me deeply and that she really wants us to work together as a team in life. That makes me deeply happy. 

To get there it all started with an admission of feeling unloved and unloving towards one another. That was the door that opened with a sign saying, "hey can we work on improving this!" With what you write about your marriage it sounds like that is where you and your husband might be at in this moment. I sincerely wish you the best and hope that you find ways to enjoy strengthening your marriage. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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