# My husband looks at porn....



## Gemini11 (Jun 13, 2011)

I've never had a problem with him looking at porn as strange as it sounds, I guess. Well I guess I would say I got over it and was like 'whatever'. We have been together for 9 years married for 7. Well about 4-5 months ago...he started looking at Ebony porn....granted we are white. And every time I'm away...he looks at a lot of it. It just makes me feel like how can I compete with that? I don't feel wanted. Opinions please....


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

What is the rest of the relationship (emotional, physical) like?


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## Laurae1967 (May 10, 2011)

If his porn viewing is not getting in the way of your sex life or marriage, it should not be an issue.

Do you ever get turned on by porn? By a guy or girl in porn who does not look like your husband? If you do, does that mean he doesn't do it for you?


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## Gemini11 (Jun 13, 2011)

You all are missing the issue...please read the entire post. He has been looking at black girls (porn)....ALOT. I look at porn too...I don't care if he looks at porn....but he's been looking at ebony porn alot. And I feel like how can I compete with a black woman?


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## Gemini11 (Jun 13, 2011)

I feel like that's what he wants now....his curiosity. Or am I just being insecure because he is looking at ebony porn now? Are relationship is pretty much fine...well your typical marriage. The physical part is good too. Just that......it kind of makes me insecure I guess?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I'm thinking you should be talking to him about it. Find out what the scoop is. Nobody here can tell you how you can compete, besides recommending a good tanning salon...

C


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## Gemini11 (Jun 13, 2011)

lmao...thank you for a real answer! i was thinking the same thing


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## Cara (Aug 15, 2010)

I don't think it's a big deal. Let's say you are thin & he has been looking at porn showing obese women. it doesn't mean he is no longet attracted to you. 

You've been together a long time, that makes me think he is just looking at something new to spice up his fantasies.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Gemini11 said:


> I feel like that's what he wants now....his curiosity. Or am I just being insecure because he is looking at ebony porn now? Are relationship is pretty much fine...well your typical marriage. The physical part is good too. Just that......it kind of makes me insecure I guess?


Do you get insecure if he looks at porn with women whose hair or eyes are a different color? Or who have different body types than you?

Do either of you ALWAYS listen to the same style of music? Eat the same kind of food? Watch the same kinds of movies and tv shows?

Probably not, right? It's the same principle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gemini11 (Jun 13, 2011)

@Cara ...Good viewpoint thank you.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

I don't think porn is good for relationships, it creates unrealistic expectations, plus has the person viewing the porn focusing on, getting turned on by and thinking about other people instead of focusing about what they find sexy in their real life partners.

I don't think it's a good thing that he is fixated on other women.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

Definitely talk to him but I think you should do some introspection, too. When I found my H looking at porn I was really insecure too. Some might say my reasons were legitimate since he wasn't interested in sex with me but i realize now my insecurity about the porn was really stemming from an insecurity about the relationship in general. I finally realized many other areas of the relationship were the real reason for the insecurity. I just didn't feel he really loved me in general. The porn just brought out those feelings. 

I don't feel the need to limit my H's porn use anymore because that feels like i would be trying to force a false sense of security. Its a psuedo-safety net that doesn't really solve anything. If i feel insecure about him looking at porn i ask myself why i feel insecure, what areas of the relationship and my interpersonal life are lacking, and go from there.


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## Rob774 (Sep 27, 2010)

Porn husband here... who just happens to be black. Why your husband has a itching for black female pormstars??? No one here can answer thsi without speculation. You might of just caught him in the middle of his "flava of the month." Sometimes i look up asian girls for awhile, sometime german girls, sometimes brazillion. It just depends on what i feel like viewing during this time. My staff is over 90% white, and i know for a fact that some of my white coworkers have a natural curiosity of black women. Why? Can't answer that. But where the majority of these guys are from, its rare that they would of found themselves in a position where they could of ever explored a relationship with one, so often this curiousity lingers, even after they get married. 

But i'm telling you that this is harmless. He married you, and prefers you, so when you say, "How can i compare?" I don't think overnight your husband will want you to grow a giant booty and be overly voluptious. He likes you, he loves you, he married you. He just happens to have a little bit of a curiosity of other women. Its like white woman who are curious of the new black guy (i've had this happen to me) None of these women threw themselves at me, they are happily married, but i can tell that are just naturally curious of me because of my color and where i'm from (heart of philly). Hope this helps.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Gemini11 said:


> You all are missing the issue...please read the entire post. He has been looking at black girls (porn)....ALOT. I look at porn too...I don't care if he looks at porn....but he's been looking at ebony porn alot. And I feel like how can I compete with a black woman?


Um.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

You think that's a problem.

Wait until your husband starts looking at men and trannies - then wonder how you compete with THAT?

Sorry I couldn't be of more help - but been there, done that - got the t-shirt and it wasn't any fun for me either!


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## Indy Nial (Sep 26, 2010)

Maybe its cos he likes big butts, booty, black girls seem to better endowed in this area than white women
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Blanca said:


> Definitely talk to him but I think you should do some introspection, too. When I found my H looking at porn I was really insecure too. Some might say my reasons were legitimate since he wasn't interested in sex with me but i realize now my insecurity about the porn was really stemming from an insecurity about the relationship in general. I finally realized many other areas of the relationship were the real reason for the insecurity. I just didn't feel he really loved me in general. The porn just brought out those feelings.
> 
> I don't feel the need to limit my H's porn use anymore because that feels like i would be trying to force a false sense of security. Its a psuedo-safety net that doesn't really solve anything. If i feel insecure about him looking at porn i ask myself why i feel insecure, what areas of the relationship and my interpersonal life are lacking, and go from there.


:iagree:

Spot on. That's what I finally figured out and where I am too.

It was less about the porn and more about "why".


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## PealedBannana (Jun 9, 2011)

Rob774 said:


> Porn husband here... who just happens to be black. Why your husband has a itching for black female pormstars??? No one here can answer thsi without speculation. You might of just caught him in the middle of his "flava of the month." Sometimes i look up asian girls for awhile, sometime german girls, sometimes brazillion. It just depends on what i feel like viewing during this time. My staff is over 90% white, and i know for a fact that some of my white coworkers have a natural curiosity of black women. Why? Can't answer that. But where the majority of these guys are from, its rare that they would of found themselves in a position where they could of ever explored a relationship with one, so often this curiousity lingers, even after they get married.
> 
> But i'm telling you that this is harmless. He married you, and prefers you, so when you say, "How can i compare?" I don't think overnight your husband will want you to grow a giant booty and be overly voluptious. He likes you, he loves you, he married you. He just happens to have a little bit of a curiosity of other women. Its like white woman who are curious of the new black guy (i've had this happen to me) None of these women threw themselves at me, they are happily married, but i can tell that are just naturally curious of me because of my color and where i'm from (heart of philly). Hope this helps.


This is what I'm thinking too. As long as he doesn't ignore you for porn I wouldn't worry anything about it.


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## Gemini11 (Jun 13, 2011)

@Rob774 
I agree. Thank you everyone for input.


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## David C (Jun 14, 2011)

"but he's been looking at ebony porn a lot. And I feel like how can I compete with a black woman?"

I'd like to lift the veil here on guys looking at porn.

When I look at porn I don't compare the women I'm looking at to my wife. I don't want a relationship with them. I don't care what race they are.

I look at porn the way I read a newspaper in the morning. To past the time, see something interesting and just plain break up the boredom of daily life.

I really wish women wouldn't read so much into it.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

David C said:


> I really wish women wouldn't read so much into it.


I confronted this attitude with my H for awhile. Every relationship has its issue and this attitude is toxic to progress. This is a very common attitude of alcoholics.


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## PeteK (Jun 15, 2011)

I am white married to a black woman. I don't actually have an ebony sexual fantasy but I have always felt attracted to black women. I am not sure exactly why but it was not only about looks. I am not actually crazy about ebony porn.

It might be a fantasy he has; it might be that he is just attracted to a particular body type; it might just be his current flavour; it might be the attraction of the different/unknown;exotic; who knows?

I think the best thing would be if you have a chat about it. Just ask him. I am sometimes surprised when my wife tell me she finds a man attractive who looks very different from me, and I usually ask her.

In any case, I realized over time that chemistry is much more important in sex than looks. And I think if the chemistry is right, sex can be very good. 

I hope this helps somehow.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

David C said:


> "but he's been looking at ebony porn a lot. And I feel like how can I compete with a black woman?"
> 
> I'd like to lift the veil here on guys looking at porn.
> 
> ...


I really wish men would care more about women and read more into it.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Gemini11 said:


> You all are missing the issue...please read the entire post. He has been looking at black girls (porn)....ALOT. I look at porn too...I don't care if he looks at porn....but he's been looking at ebony porn alot. And I feel like how can I compete with a black woman?


You could let him catch you looking at porn with black men and see where that goes  Stop feeling like you have to compare yourself to them. As Syrum will tell you, You rank higher on the socioeconomic ladder than they do. You Win!  I say rent an Ebony porn DVD without him knowing and pop it in before bed. Have fun with it.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

You didn't answer my question... What's the rest of the relationship like?

Also, you mentioned that you watch porn. What kind of porn do you like to watch (be honest here)?


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## Prometheus Pyrphoros (Jun 16, 2011)

Please define what really seems to be the problem. Is it PORN or is it EBONY porn?
Men go for variety, this has worked well in our evolutionary past. Nothing wrong there.
I can tell you that I sometimes look at different types of porn. Ebony being one (I am white). I think nothing of it.
Why should you compete with his porn? Totally wrong mindset. The question is - are your needs not being satisfied adequately and how well do the two of you function?
Best regards

--
Gloria in excelsis Deo, et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis


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## LayaSkywalker (Apr 26, 2013)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> You think that's a problem.
> 
> Wait until your husband starts looking at men and trannies - then wonder how you compete with THAT?
> 
> Sorry I couldn't be of more help - but been there, done that - got the t-shirt and it wasn't any fun for me either!


That's where I'm at with my bf. I'm more than sure that this is something that has interested him long before we got together. But between shemales, shotacon, and his "secret" email account for many of these forums, I feel like it's his private time & to let him look at what he wants. He doesn't know that I know about his other email or what he looks for/at, & I don't let on. But if he ever looks for or at anything illegal, I won't hesitate to react. I look at porn too, and am open about what & when I view it with my bf but he's incredibly reserved & won't even tell me if he views missionary porn. Viewing porn isn't a terrible thing if done in moderation and legally.


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## Lordhavok (Mar 14, 2012)

Thats what is so great about porn, variety. Has nothing to do with you


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

OMG i look at black, hispanic,asian porn also so i must want to leave my wife for them.................but darn i dont.

ps my wife looks at porn also...we compare websites some nights our sex life is great (other than shes not a black hispanic asian)


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Gemini11 said:


> You all are missing the issue...please read the entire post. He has been looking at black girls (porn)....ALOT. I look at porn too...I don't care if he looks at porn....but he's been looking at ebony porn alot. And I feel like how can I compete with a black woman?


Why do you think you have to compete with porn?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Gemini11 said:


> I feel like that's what he wants now....his curiosity. Or am I just being insecure because he is looking at ebony porn now? Are relationship is pretty much fine...well your typical marriage. The physical part is good too. Just that......it kind of makes me insecure I guess?


Am I just being insecure.......Yes....All men go through phased about what porn they find erotic...At one time I was turned on by Asian women, now I can't stand them...It will pass, stop making yourself miserable...PS now I don't look at porn at all....

the woodchuck


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

tacoma said:


> Why do you think you have to compete with porn?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think compete is the right word. 

I can't speak for anyone else, but say for instance that ebony porn is the ONLY type of porn he EVER looks at. And the poster is Caucasian or Asian, etc. and the poster's SO looks at porn more often than they have sex, one might start to wonder, why is he with me? If I'm not what gets him off sexually, why does he have sex with me? Why bother? Is he concentrating on fantasy while we are together?

Who wants to be intimate with someone who's really not interested or concentrating on them? Getting off on them so to speak...

Just my take. A bit of personal experience/feelings thrown in there.


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## RickyC (Apr 26, 2013)

It could be a fetish-like desire. I guess what I am trying to say is that when masturbate, they are looking for something to gett'em going and get that aroused feeling started. he may have come acrossed it by accident and is just hooked on it for now. The thing about masturbation is that you can have sex with whoever you want (black, chinese, younger, older, bigger, skinny). I honestly dont believe that he would compare them to you. If he is "relieving" himself, it is probably something that is helping him achieve that goal. He could eventually move on to short redheads for example. Not a pro here, just my thoughts


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## SouthernMiss (Apr 25, 2013)

Every single time he's ever looked at porn, he was looking at...and getting sexually excited about...a woman who was different from you. Maybe she had a different hair color, body type, boob size, height, eye color...whoever she was, she wasn't you.

You were ok with that, as I understand.

Black is not significantly different than those other attributes. He is looking at variety.

Black is not a fetish. It's just a skin color. It's a curiosity that turns him on...but no different than any other porn princess he was checking out...curiosity...wanting to get turned on by someone who wasn't you.

It's no more a betrayal, a good thing or a bad thing, than what he's looked at in the past & you were ok with.

Either be ok with him watching porn...or don't. But you can't pick and choose what it's ok for him to look at (excluding illegal stuff, of course).


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

notmarriedyet said:


> Who wants to be intimate with someone who's really not interested or concentrating on them? Getting off on them so to speak...


If this is true it's entirely in her own head and has nothing to do with her man.

He didn't say this, he didn't imply this.
This is a construction she has created herself that he doesn't even know exists, yet he's been put in a position to have to deal with something he isn't even aware of and couldn't be aware of unless she informed him.

Good god!


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

The OP if this thread hasn't posted in nearly 2 years.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

notmarriedyet said:


> I don't think compete is the right word.
> 
> I can't speak for anyone else, but say for instance that ebony porn is the ONLY type of porn he EVER looks at. And the poster is Caucasian or Asian, etc. and the poster's SO looks at porn more often than they have sex, one might start to wonder, why is he with me? If I'm not what gets him off sexually, why does he have sex with me? Why bother? Is he concentrating on fantasy while we are together?
> 
> ...


Most men don't really think like this. This is how some women tend to _assume_ we think.

Men, on the whole, tend to compartmentalize. Most of us are perfectly able to have sex with you, enjoy it, and not have the fantasy crossover. A man could masturbate to porn featuring obese Asian baton twirlers, and then later on in the same day have sex with you and not connect the two sexual experiences at all. So while an insecure wife, or girlfriend, might be assuming she's in competition with the fantasy, the man isn't even remotely thinking along those lines. Fantasy is fantasy, real life is real life. The two seldom cross. And honestly a lot of people, if given the chance, might even be repulsed in real life by the things in porn that get them hot.

Even if, in the case of the scenario presented by the now long gone OP, her man ended up sleeping with a Black woman, it still doesn't mean he didn't enjoy sleeping with her, and other white women. 

As long as women and men continue to assume that how they see a situation is automatically how the other sex feels, we'll always be at an impasse.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

tacoma said:


> If this is true it's entirely in her own head and has nothing to do with her man.
> 
> He didn't say this, he didn't imply this.
> This is a construction she has created herself that he doesn't even know exists, yet he's been put in a position to have to deal with something he isn't even aware of and couldn't be aware of unless she informed him.
> ...


I know that the thread is about his particular "flavor of the month"

But how can anyone - man or woman, not gather that the only thing that can get their man off is a certain kind of porn? Ever never watches anything but that? If he never deviates from one particular kind. 

You can't tell me that it wouldn't cross someone's mind to think WTF?

If every time someones SO got the chance they were looking at ebony porn. Maybe even right before sex...I'm just stating its a possibility. 

Not every person on the planet is completely secure with themselves. And when it bothers someone, it's not fair to say, "you shouldn't FEEL like that" when indeed those feelings are very real and very painful.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Men are programmed to desire variety, whereas women are programmed to desire quality. He is bound to watch porn featuring women different to you. There is no need to compete. 

He will probably be into this for a few months and then move on to something else.


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

notmarriedyet said:


> I know that the thread is about his particular "flavor of the month"
> 
> But how can anyone - man or woman, not gather that the only thing that can get their man off is a certain kind of porn? Ever never watches anything but that? If he never deviates from one particular kind.
> 
> ...


She has caught him, in this moment of time, watching "nothing but that". Possibly, in 6 months, he'll be looking at "nothing but" asian porn. Or chicks with small boobs porn. Or women with big butts porn. Or...who is to know? Maybe this is just a "fantasy", or even "obsession" that he does not even desire to be reality?

I'm telling you ladies, honestly, when it comes to us guys, we can be, from your perspective, "strange" about this. It really has not a damn thing to do with you or how we feel about you. 

Case in point....I recently found an old external hard drive of mine. A hard drive that had a considerable bit of porn on it. That I hadn't seen in maybe 5 years. My "ideal" at that time was pretty obvious, after perusing what was on the drive. And, after viewing it again, I thought "really...that's what I was in to five years ago? That's not really doing it for me now." 

We are visual. We are a bit "freaky" sometimes. We are no different than you were you to have our hormones (as evidenced by threads here about how women act with porn or sex during the hormonal swings of pregnancy). NONE of that changes how we feel, emotionally, about you, or how attracted to you as a person or "physical being" we are, and how we view YOU, the woman we love and desire on a continual, ongoing basis!

I know, it "sucks" for you we can be like this. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with you, how attracted we are to you, or how we view you. Trust me on that one. If we love you, and have that "connection" with you, there is no image that can make us feel as whole or sexually or emotionally satisfied as YOU DO when we MAKE LOVE (or "phuck") with YOU.

No bullchit there. That's just how it is...with most of us I believe. Cut us some slack (if we are otherwise showing you we deserve it). It's just the way we're "built". YOU, CANNOT be "replaced", and YOU, DO NOT have to "measure up" to whatever our quirk is at the moment. Because if we love you, none of those women can come close to competing with YOU in our minds.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

notmarriedyet said:


> Not every person on the planet is completely secure with themselves. And when it bothers someone, it's not fair to say, "you shouldn't FEEL like that" when indeed those feelings are very real and very painful.


So you are promoting that her H (who has no problem he is aware of) should change his behavior according to her insecurity ( which he has no knowledge of)instead of her confronting her insecurity?


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

The only reason I sometimes view porn is because my wifee is LD and does nothing about it, so I need release.

If she had a healthy normal to HD, no porn, unless she wanted to do what they do.

Whether its asian, black, white, doesn't matter to me. Women are women. They all are into sex, good at it, take care of their bodies and look great for 20's, 30's, 40's.......so its not a specific age either, or hair style, breast size, butt size, none of that for me.

If you are a HD women, fit, do things to drive your man wild, porn should be none existent, unless you both watch it together to get the ball rolling. But if you are LD and he is HD, he needs his release and he can't just ignore that.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> The only reason I sometimes view porn is because my wifee is LD and does nothing about it, so I need release.
> 
> If she had a healthy normal to HD, no porn, unless she wanted to do what they do.
> 
> ...


If you don't mind my asking, how old are you? 

So, here is a man who says porn should be nonexistent if he is getting as much sex as he wants. He's basically saying what is the point. 

Tacoma- if her insecurity stems from his regular viewing of porn although she puts out whenever wanted, then yes I think he should take her feelings into consideration. 
Seeing that there are indeed men out there who think it isn't really necessary if he's getting what he wants at home.

And what did men do before Internet and easily accessible magazine and video porn? I think a lot of porn use today is due to high accessibility and just an excuse. Hey, it's there for us and screw how it makes my wife/SO feel because it's not about her, it's her own fault, etc. have a little ever living respect and decency toward your mate. Especially if you knew her feelings before moving forward in a relationship. 

I think anything in a relationship should be negotiable. Porn or otherwise. Not taking your partners feelings into consideration about any issue is not very loving IMO.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

notmarriedyet said:


> Tacoma- if her insecurity stems from his regular viewing of porn although she puts out whenever wanted, then yes I think he should take her feelings into consideration.


So her insecurity is his problem...not hers.

Gotcha..

:rofl:

This place kills me sometimes.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

tacoma said:


> So her insecurity is his problem...not hers.
> 
> Gotcha..
> 
> ...


Making a mental note to not respond to you anymore.... I come here for conversation, not snark. 

Gotcha...13 year old sitting here for that. 

:rofl:


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

notmarriedyet said:


> I know that the thread is about his particular "flavor of the month"
> 
> But how can anyone - man or woman, not gather that the only thing that can get their man off is a certain kind of porn? Ever never watches anything but that? If he never deviates from one particular kind.
> 
> ...


While I do believe a lot of women hurt themselves by assuming their husbands see porn the same way they do, I feel you. Emotions aren't exactly tethered in logic, and they can be strong, and painful, regardless of the facts.

Some things are just far easier said than done. We men too have more than our fair share of irrational thoughts about women and sex.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

notmarriedyet said:


> And what did men do before Internet and easily accessible magazine and video porn?










http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SungaLoveScene.jpg


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

jaquen said:


> While I do believe a lot of women hurt themselves by assuming their husbands see porn the same way they do, I feel you. Emotions aren't exactly tethered in logic, and they can be strong, and painful, regardless of the facts.
> 
> Some things are just far easier said than done. We men too have more than our fair share of irrational thoughts about women and sex.


You said it better than I could have. 

Too many people think its simply black & white, end of story, get over it.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

notmarriedyet said:


> Tacoma- if her insecurity stems from his regular viewing of porn although she puts out whenever wanted, then yes I think he should take her feelings into consideration.


One partner feeling insecure about the other's behaviour doesn't oblige the other to change, as long as the behaviour fits within the norms of their society.

I will use the analogy I've used before; if a man feels insecure because his wife earns more than he does, she is not obliged to give up her job. He is obliged to deal with his insecurities.


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

My husband and I resolve impasses with the "whoever cares more wins".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

notmarriedyet said:


> Making a mental note to not respond to you anymore.... I come here for conversation, not snark.
> 
> Gotcha...13 year old sitting here for that.
> 
> :rofl:


If you go into the user control panel you can actually ignore me.

Makes it much easier to weed out any alternative viewpoints to your own.

Try it out!


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

tacoma said:


> If you go into the user control panel you can actually ignore me.
> 
> Makes it much easier to weed out any alternative viewpoints to your own.
> 
> Try it out!


Oh no, never! I LOVE alternative viewpoints. Another excellent example of why I come here. 

I do believe its the snark I said I could live without.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

notmarriedyet said:


> Oh no, never! I LOVE alternative viewpoints. Another excellent example of why I come here.
> 
> I do believe its the snark I said I could live without.


For me sarcasm is a viewpoint.
Get used to it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Terry_CO (Oct 23, 2012)

Gemini11 said:


> You all are missing the issue...please read the entire post. He has been looking at black girls (porn)....ALOT. I look at porn too...I don't care if he looks at porn....but he's been looking at ebony porn alot. And I feel like how can I compete with a black woman?


I don't understand. Why would a black woman be any harder to compete with? I'm a white man and not a racist, not by a stretch ..... but I don't find black women the slightest bit attractive ...ANY black women ....with the possible exception of Rae Dawn Chong ...maybe. She is just too hot ... 

My point is that any ethnic/racial group is the same. If your husband suddenly liked looking at Arab women porn, that doesn't make you any less able to compete, and in reality - you're not really competing at all. Men are visual. We find porn irresistable. It doesn't mean we love our women any less


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Terry_CO said:


> I don't understand. Why would a black woman be any harder to compete with? I'm a white man and not a racist, not by a stretch ..... but I don't find black women the slightest bit attractive ...ANY black women ....with the possible exception of Rae Dawn Chong ...maybe. She is just too hot ...


And we needed to know you find Black women unattractive why?

The OP's husband clearly finds Black women sexy. I personally don't believe she's in any competition, but there is at least solid evidence that lends credence to her concerns. But you going on a tangent about how you find the half billion Non-Rae Dawn Chong Black women in the world completely unattractive is utterly pointless, and potentially inflammatory.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Get a spray tan...

Porn is usually a categorical thing and goes in ebbs and flows.

I for one like Czech because they are Czech and more open than American, I'm laying off porn now thankfully.

Porn is certainly a great outlet in the sexless years.
Better than cheating, and can generate great O's.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about black porn... maybe he just likes the length.

Closet?


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

My porn tastes change every few months. Never do I see them as 'competitors' to my wife. Fantasy and masturbation is an outlet for natural desires and curiousity. I have no intention of actually sleeping with a 300 pound BBW, a female bodybuilder or an aging MILF. Porn is an aid to fantasy, that is all.


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## PleasePursue (May 6, 2013)

Syrum said:


> I don't think porn is good for relationships, it creates unrealistic expectations, plus has the person viewing the porn focusing on, getting turned on by and thinking about other people instead of focusing about what they find sexy in their real life partners.
> 
> I don't think it's a good thing that he is fixated on other women.


:iagree: Absolutely. I have researched porn in relationships a lot lately because of some issues with my marriage and there is no good that can ever come of it. Sure it can be gratifying so people like to defend it but if you arent single it is just an obstacle to intimacy and monogamy.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

tacoma said:


> For me sarcasm is a viewpoint.
> Get used to it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes sir! 
Wow.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

PleasePursue said:


> :iagree: Absolutely. I have researched porn in relationships a lot lately because of some issues with my marriage and there is no good that can ever come of it. Sure it can be gratifying so people like to defend it but if you arent single it is just an obstacle to intimacy and monogamy.


There is no credible evidence of damage caused by normal use of legal porn. There is very strong statistical evidence that associates the availability of porn with positive outcomes in terms of sexual violence:

From Scientific American:

_Does Porn Harm Women?
The most common concern about pornography is that it indirectly hurts women by encouraging sexism, *raising sexual expectations and thereby harming relationships*. Some people worry that it might even incite violence against women. The data, however, do not support these claims. *“There’s absolutely no evidence that pornography does anything negative,”* says Milton Diamond, director of the Pacific Center for Sex and Society at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. “It’s a moral issue, not a factual issue.”_

University of Zagreb:

_University of Zagreb in Croatia surveyed 650 young men about their pornography use and sex lives. As they reported in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, the* scientists found that users of mainstream, non*violent pornography were neither more nor less sexually satisfied than nonusers*. Both groups felt the *same degree of intimacy in their current or recent relationships *and shared the same range of sexual experiences._

Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality:

_In a study published in 2004 in the Journal of Psychology & Human Sexuality, researchers at Texas Tech University administered a survey to male and female college students and found that although consumers of pornography did not display more negative attitudes toward women, they were more likely than other respondents to believe that women should be protected from harm—what the investigators call “benevolent sexism._

Scientific American:

_“Rates of rapes and sexual assault in the U.S. are at their lowest levels since the 1960s,” says Christopher J. Ferguson, a professor of psychology and criminal justice at Texas A&M International University. The same goes for other countries: as access to pornography grew in once restrictive Japan, China and Denmark in the past 40 years, rape statistics plummeted. Within the U.S., the states with the least Internet access between 1980 and 2000—and therefore the least access to Internet pornography—experienced a 53 percent increase in rape incidence, whereas the states with the most access experienced a 27 percent drop in the number of reported rapes, according to a paper published in 2006 by Anthony D’Amato, a law professor at Northwestern University._

I would be very interested to see what evidence you have for porn being an 'an obstalce to intimacy and monogamy'.


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## PleasePursue (May 6, 2013)

johnnycomelately said:


> There is no credible evidence of damage caused by normal use of legal porn. There is very strong statistical evidence that associates the availability of porn with positive outcomes in terms of sexual violence:
> 
> From Scientific American:
> 
> ...




yourbrainonporn.com just skim through the site which does have many interesting facts based on scientific research. it explains why porn is so habit forming and can kill sexual desire for real life partners. Many men develop ED from overuse of porn as a result of their brains being so hyper stimulated from porn that real life women with flaws and feelings are not attractive any more. 

As to the monogamy comment, well although many people progressively go from porn to affairs i know that this may be the exception so i meant it more as mongamy in the mental sense. Science has shown that when you come to porn, oxytocin which is the bonding chemical in your brain is released and literally bonds your emotions to the images on the screen. For this very reason love experts say to keep you eyes open when you come with a partner to train your brain to know where the pleasure is coming from.


The following excerpt is from The Dangers of Pornography and although this particular excerpt doesnt reference studies they are there if you do a quick web search.
"Destruction of Intimacy:
Intimacy is based on trust and commitment. The dangers of pornography can be seen as a constant erosion of those values and qualities. Almost without exception, husbands keep their addiction to porn a secret from their wives. Over the long term, the results are guilt and isolation: the husband retreats emotionally and finds himself in a barrenness of soul. He has lost any intimacy that he was experiencing with his wife, and has discovered that pornography initially excites but, without fail, disappoints.
Sex without intimacy is hollow and futile. Yet within the framework of intimacy, sex is an awesome way for a husband and wife to connect emotionally and physically: it has the ability to provide true intimacy, joy, and sexual satisfaction!

Decreased Excitement and Satisfaction:
Research has shown that repeated exposure to pornography not only results in a diminished sexual arousal but also a decreased satisfaction with the sexual partner and the partner’s sexuality.
Despair:
The dangers of pornography come with a hidden price tag! Many men involve themselves in porn to try to fill some need, or simply out of a curiosity—and then quickly discover they are being controlled by a destructive habit. By this stage, intervention from the outside is usually necessary. Confiding in a trusted friend or counselor is the first step of the journey to become free. Unfortunately for men who try to hide their addiction, there is a spiraling dynamic of guilt, emptiness, isolation, and perverted thinking that takes place. The end of such a spiral is despair.
Warped Thinking and Desensitization:
Pornography leaves the impression that sex is unrelated to love, commitment or marriage; and that irresponsible sex has no undesirable penalties. Desensitization of rape as a crime, misconceptions about the popularity of certain sexual practices, and a decrease in the care of female sexuality are additional effects of repeated viewing of pornography."

I have just done 3 months solid of research on porn because of it in my own marriage. I was also a user. Also to say porn is not hurting anyone is wrong. Visit pinkcross.org. This is an organization formed by porn stars to tell how the porn industry hides the abuse to women, stds and other damages. I recommend reading the novel, "Porn Nation" which is one man's account of how porn led him to many bad decisions that ruined his life. 

I am aware that statistical data does show that violent crime is decreased as users can use porn as an outlet for violent tendencies. (I am going to school for criminology/sociology.) I do not condemn anyone for using porn nor do i believe it should be banned yet i think it is for single people or at the very least maybe for a couple to use rarely to spice things up as a prelude to sex with each other. For a monogamous relationship- YES it has been shown to be harmful when used in secret.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

PleasePursue said:


> yourbrainonporn.com just skim through the site which does have many interesting facts based on scientific research. it explains why porn is so habit forming and can kill sexual desire for real life partners. Many men develop ED from overuse of porn as a result of their brains being so hyper stimulated from porn that real life women with flaws and feelings are not attractive any more.


Your Brain On Porn is one of the worst examples of bad 'science' I have ever seen. I find it surprising that you call the contents 'facts' and 'research'.

Gary Wilson and his wife make a lot of money out of those seeking to find a factual reasons to cover for their moral dislike of porn. Applying your critical faculties to Your Brain On Porn will soon show how dishonest Gary Wilson is and how easily falsifiable his claims are. See this thread:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/relationships-addiction/70876-critique-your-brain-porn.html 



PleasePursue said:


> As to the monogamy comment, well although many people progressively go from porn to affairs i know that this may be the exception so i meant it more as mongamy in the mental sense. Science has shown that when you come to porn, oxytocin which is the bonding chemical in your brain is released and literally bonds your emotions to the images on the screen. For this very reason love experts say to keep you eyes open when you come with a partner to train your brain to know where the pleasure is coming from..


There are no statistical studies published in peer-reviewed journals that link porn and infidelity. That is simply false.




PleasePursue said:


> The following excerpt is from The Dangers of Pornography and although this particular excerpt doesnt reference studies they are there if you do a quick web search..


Intimate Couples is a religiously affiliated site. You can hardly claim they are objective. Using their site would be like me using a site sponsored by Hustler magazine as scientific evidence.



PleasePursue said:


> . For a monogamous relationship- YES it has been shown to be harmful when used in secret.


There are no credible studies showing that normal use of legal porn is harmful. I challenge you to produce a peer-reviewed statistical study that shows that it is. Books aimed at the anti-porn market prove nothing. Just as neo-Nazi publications don't prove that Hitler was right. 

If you are going to make bold assertions that are against the weight of scientific evidence you should produce some scientific evidence of your own, not just the opinions of a Christian web site and the unproven claims of a few people trying to sell books.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> There are no credible studies showing that normal use of legal porn is harmful. I challenge you to produce a peer-reviewed statistical study that shows that it is.


The qualifiers are very important, as there is quite a bit of evidence that pornography usage can harm relationships, decrease sexual satisfaction with a partner, and that viewing violent (but legal!) pornography does increase aggressive behaviour, especially in certain types of men.

In response to your challenge, here is a starter kit of peer reviewed studies.

Pornography use and sexual aggression: the impact of frequency and type of pornography use on recidivism among sexual offenders. Aggressive Behavior, 34(4)341-351
DOI: 10.1002/ab.20250


The Impact of Internet Pornography on Marriage and the Family: A Review of the Research. Sexual Addiction & Compulsivity (September 2006), 13 (2-3), pg. 131-165 

Pornography's impact on male adolescents Adolescent Medicine: State of the Art Reviews , v.4 (3) , p.563 , 1993 

Pornography and sexual aggression: Are there reliable effects and can we understand them? Annual Review of Sex Research , v.11 , p.26 , 2000 ,

Pornography's impact on sexual satisfaction Journal of Applied Social Psychology , v.18 , p.438 , 1988a


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

always_alone said:


> The qualifiers are very important, as there is quite a bit of evidence that pornography usage can harm relationships, decrease sexual satisfaction with a partner, and that viewing violent (but legal!) pornography does increase aggressive behaviour, especially in certain types of men.
> 
> In response to your challenge, here is a starter kit of peer reviewed studies.
> 
> ...


This is a study about child sex offenders and child pornography. We can't read the conclusions either, so this tells us nothing about the situation being discussed.




always_alone said:


> The Impact of Internet Pornography on Marriage and the Family: A Review of the Research. Sexual Addiction & Compulsivity (September 2006), 13 (2-3), pg. 131-165


Again unreadable and produced by a Mormon university. Their stated policy on porn is as follows:

_The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Gordon B. Hinckley, former president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was well known within the faith for expounding his organization's sentiments against pornography.[11] The LDS Church teaches that "Pornography is any material depicting or describing the human body or sexual conduct in a way that arouses sexual feelings. It is as *harmful to the spirit as tobacco, alcohol, and drugs are to the body*. Members of the Church should avoid pornography in any form and should oppose its production, distribution, and use." [12] The LDS church has developed a website for its members to help them prevent and overcome pornography at Overcoming Pornography._

Objective? Not even close.



always_alone said:


> Pornography's impact on male adolescents Adolescent Medicine: State of the Art Reviews , v.4 (3) , p.563 , 1993


This is about adolescents. We are talking about adults. I agree with keeping porn away from kids. Even so there study is inconclusive as in "may be harmed."



always_alone said:


> Pornography and sexual aggression: Are there reliable effects and can we understand them? Annual Review of Sex Research , v.11 , p.26 , 2000 ,


This study concludes _"Current findings suggest that for the majority of men (even at the highest levels assessed here) is *not associated with high levels of aggression*"_



always_alone said:


> Pornography's impact on sexual satisfaction Journal of Applied Social Psychology , v.18 , p.438 , 1988a


Again unreadable. The summary seems to suggest decreased satisfaction, but it isn't clear on details. If you could get me a copy I will happily read it. Without knowing the conclusions it is impossible to call.


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## PleasePursue (May 6, 2013)

A new University of Central Florida study has found that people in committed relationships who view pornographic materials are more likely to cheat on their partners than those who don’t.

The study, released March 12 in the journal of Social, Psychological and Personality Science, referred to cheating as “extradyadic behavior” and sought to determine whether porn consumption led to it. 

“Initial pornography consumption,” wrote the authors, “predicted intimate extradyadic behavior 12 weeks later, even after controlling for initial extradyadic behavior, sociosexuality, relationship length, baseline relationship satisfaction, social desirability, and participant gender and race. … These results suggest that sexually explicit material can provoke intimate extradyadic behavior via its effect on perceptions of alternative partners.”

Study co-author A. Marlea Gwinn put it in layman’s terms for Men’s Health, explaining that porn offers users the illusion of no-strings-attached sexual gratification with multiple highly attractive partners. Those erotic images, Gwinn added, program the users’ brains to assume that there are plenty of attractive and willing sexual partners available outside their current relationships.


This is an article from CNBC referencing studies done at the Princeton Witherspoon Institute:
Sexual Junk Food: Porn's Degrading Effects - Health & Science - CBN News - Christian News 24-7 - CBN.com

Impact on Relationships

For instance, men consuming porn rate their partners much less attractive than do those who avoid porn. For many porn addicts, when it comes to a real partner, it renders them nearly impotent or much less satisfied with their partner.

"If they had to choose between an actual sex partner who is in the bed and waiting for them, and going online, they'd go online," University of Pennsylvania psychologist Mary Anne Layden said of porn addicts she's studied.

Couples where the man consumed high amounts of pornography reported much less satisfaction in the bedroom. Porn users cheat more and go to prostitutes more.

Discovering their men's porn use has left many women feeling betrayed and distrustful. Almost three-fourths say it's hurt their self-esteem.

"The marriage relationship is traumatically damaged and decreased in terms of the emotional intimacy, which is actually the cornerstone of the marriage," Layden said.


Also, it has been found 56% of divorces cited one party's obsessive use of porn as a reason for divorce! Thats HUGE!
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...n-really-destroying-500000-marriages-annually


The bottom line is this. The addicts motto is this: "That which you feed grows and that which you starves dies." If you are feeding your lust with porn and essentially starving the desire for your partner. Why risk it? Is it really worth it to put your marriage on shaky ground for lust and self gratification? 

Many men are raised to believe "boys will be boys" so there is justification from society yet it is morally wrong, degrading to the women and men involved, and IMO cheating. Why does technology excuse behavior. If I were to go to a hotel room and watch a couple have sex, and masturbate to orgasm never touching them. Then went home to my husband and kept it a secret, would this be okay? Why does a screen make it acceptable? It is actually worse than the situtation above since users do this very thing repeatedly and many neglect their spouse's needs to partake in other people's pleasure. As for open relationships I suppose that would be different but in a traditional marriage it is WRONG.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

PleasePursue said:


> A new University of Central Florida study has found that people in committed relationships who view pornographic materials are more likely to cheat on their partners than those who don’t.
> 
> The study, released March 12 in the journal of Social, Psychological and Personality Science, referred to cheating as “extradyadic behavior” and sought to determine whether porn consumption led to it.
> 
> ...


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> Objective? Not even close.


Maybe. But my main point stands. The qualifiers do matter. Research that shows no effects of porn are typically small samples, observed for short periods of time, and based on self-perception surveys. These sorts of studies have their own weaknesses. 

And once the porn viewing is of violent material (but still legal!), the conclusions start to change, especially for certain types of men.

And there is some evidence that porn viewing does indeed affect the quality of relationships, and the expectations that people have for them. Reject it if you wish, but it is out there and it is peer-reviewed, not just for money making.

And you say adolescents don't count. But the fact of the matter is that this is when most people start their porn habits, and this is where many young people form their opinions of sex and relationships. And last I heard, adolescents do grow to be men (and women). Do you not think they carry their expectations of sex and relationships with them into adulthood?

Do you think it's a complete coincidence that our utterly pornified culture is one where people have trouble finding and maintaining intimate relationships and instead prefer casual hookups?

Or is that again the fault of feminism?


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

People who regularly use porn are not going to be able to be objective about it.

If you can't give something like porn up for your marriage then it's obviously means more to you then your spouse. That says it all really.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> People who regularly use porn are not going to be able to be objective about it.
> 
> If you can't give something like porn up for your marriage then it's obviously means more to you then your spouse. That says it all really.


People with an axe to grind against porn are not going to be able to be objective, either.

You say "can't" as if eliminating a particular entertainment genre is required in all marriages. It's not. So, you phrase the statement in a way to imply a universal end result where none exists because it suits your views on the subject. *That* says it all, really.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

I personally have no problem with porn. I don't look at it much. What I have noticed is a change in the culture with women. I've been working in a field 18 years where I have seen women go from natural to completely shaved vaginas since 1997-13. I believe that is a result of girls trying to emulate porn stars on the Internet to attract men. I like it  but that's just my opinion from observation. Women don't beat me up for this... I see it everyday.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Honesty is the key. People who enjoy porn need to be open about it so that their partners can either express their distaste, their disinterest, or their mutual enjoyment. 

People, mostly women, who don't want any porn in the marriages need to stand up and state so, emphatically, without any room for interpretation. Let it be known that you will not tolerate it, and that if you discover it's usage you're willing to pull the plug on the marriage. 

There really shouldn't be anything to debate here. Don't marry somebody under false pretenses, and then live a life of hidden shame, full of secrets. On the inverse don't pretend you're fine with porn watching, only to sulk off into a private existence of resentment and bitterness. 

This debate goes nowhere. People who don't watch, and don't want it in their marriages, will never concede that some can watch, and it doesn't harm their marriages. These debates are a tired merry go round of pointlessness. It sits right next to the endless "opposite sex friends" and "joint vs separate account" go-no-where battles. 

These threads end up getting heated because there is so much projection going on, and some people clearly are using this board as a way to express their own anger, frustration, and resentment. I say do what's best for your spouse, yourself, and your marriage. And sadly if you can't reach an understanding about pornagraphy, and it's use by your spouse is eating you away like a virulent cancer, it probably best to leave the marriage.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

jaquen said:


> I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Honesty is the key. People who enjoy porn need to be open about it so that their partners can either express their distaste, their disinterest, or their mutual enjoyment.
> 
> People, mostly women, who don't want any porn in the marriages need to stand up and state so, emphatically, without any room for interpretation. Let it be known that you will not tolerate it, and that if you discover it's usage you're willing to pull the plug on the marriage.
> 
> ...


*ahem*

Bravo.

That is all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

*LittleDeer* said:


> If you can't give something like porn up for your marriage then it's obviously means more to you then your spouse. That says it all really.


Clueless.

:rofl:


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> People who regularly use porn are not going to be able to be objective about it.
> 
> If you can't give something like porn up for your marriage then it's obviously means more to you then your spouse. That says it all really.


People who hate porn are not going to be objective about it. You are essentially saying that half the population, and 70% of the men are not objective. That doesn't strike you as slightly arrogant?


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

always_alone said:


> Maybe. But my main point stands. The qualifiers do matter. Research that shows no effects of porn are typically small samples, observed for short periods of time, and based on self-perception surveys. These sorts of studies have their own weaknesses.


The studies I quoted had large statistical samples and several of them were done across four countries and three continents. Four of them were based on national rape statistics, not self-perception surveys.



always_alone said:


> And once the porn viewing is of violent material (but still legal!), the conclusions start to change, especially for certain types of men.


Agreed. Violent porn should be outlawed.



always_alone said:


> And there is some evidence that porn viewing does indeed affect the quality of relationships, and the expectations that people have for them. Reject it if you wish, but it is out there and it is peer-reviewed, not just for money making.


The only relevant study you quoted which claimed that porn affects relationships was a self-perception study, which you yourself said are weak. In addition it did not say how long the effect lasted and it did not control for masturbation (at least the summary we could read). No control for masturbation makes it impossible to be sure which activity is having the effect.



always_alone said:


> And you say adolescents don't count. But the fact of the matter is that this is when most people start their porn habits, and this is where many young people form their opinions of sex and relationships. And last I heard, adolescents do grow to be men (and women). Do you not think they carry their expectations of sex and relationships with them into adulthood?


Agreed here too. Porn should be kept away from teens. Like many activities the effect on teens is different to the effect on adults. 



always_alone said:


> Do you think it's a complete coincidence that our utterly pornified culture is one where people have trouble finding and maintaining intimate relationships and instead prefer casual hookups?


So are you suggesting that porn is the only thing that has changed? How do you know it is porn that is having the effect you claim? It could be any of the myriad of social changes that have occurred over the last 50 years. That is assuming you are right that we all 'prefer casual hookups'. Very few of my friends and family members 'prefer casual hookups' yet all the men use porn. 



always_alone said:


> Or is that again the fault of feminism?


I am an ardent feminist and I have never claimed that feminism is an issue here. Prudishness is not a hallmark of feminism.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> If you can't give something like porn up for your marriage then it's obviously means more to you then your spouse. That says it all really.


If you can't get over your hang up about porn for your marriage it obviously means more to you than your spouse, That says it all really.

Demands should only be met in a marriage if they are reasonable. Unless it was agreed on before the marriage demanding that your spouse give up porn is not reasonable,


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

PleasePursue said:


> Also, it has been found 56% of divorces cited one party's obsessive use of porn as a reason for divorce! Thats HUGE!
> http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...n-really-destroying-500000-marriages-annually


I am posting this again in response to recurrent myth:

University of Utah - Divorce - www.divorce.usu.edu

Researchers have identified the most common reasons people give for their divorces. A recent national survey(79) found that the most common reason given for divorce was “lack of commitment” (73% said this was a major reason). Other significant reasons included too much arguing (56%), infidelity (55%), marrying too young (46%), unrealistic expectations (45%), lack of equality in the relationship (44%), lack of preparation for marriage (41%), and abuse (29%). (People often give more than one reason, so the percentages add up to more than 100%.)

About.com:

The Major Causes of Divorce:

Laziness
Lack of Communication Skills
High Expectations


Pennsylvania State University:

Kitson (1992)

Commitment to work
Personality
Problems with in-laws
Drinking
External events
Out with the boys
Wife’s extramarital sex
Husband’s extramarital sex
Don’t know
Sexual problems
Economic nonsupport
Untrustworthy or immature

Australian Divorce Transition Project:

Affective issues
Communication problems
Incompatability / ‘drifted apart'
Spouse had an affair
Abusive behaviours
Physical violence to you or children
Alcohol/drug abuse
Emotional and/or verbal abuse
External pressures
Financial problems
Work/time
Family interference
Physical/mental health
Other
Spouse's personality
Children problems
Other


If this is becoming a 'huge' problem why isn't it even mentioned in the top reasons for divorce?


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

PleasePursue said:


> Many men are raised to believe "boys will be boys" so there is justification from society yet it is *morally wrong*, degrading to the women and men involved, and IMO cheating. Why does technology excuse behavior. If I were to go to a hotel room and watch a couple have sex, and masturbate to orgasm never touching them. Then went home to my husband and kept it a secret, would this be okay? Why does a screen make it acceptable? It is actually worse than the situtation above since users do this very thing repeatedly and many neglect their spouse's needs to partake in other people's pleasure. As for open relationships I suppose that would be different but in a traditional marriage it is *WRONG*.


I'm glad that you are finally being honest about your objection to porn; a moral objection. My guess is that you are religious, probably evangelical or non-denominational Christian of some kind, which is where this 'moral' conviction comes from. That is fine, we all have our moral convictions but why try and cloak them in pseudoscience? 

For the record I am open about my porn use with my wife and with any adult who cares to ask. keeping secrets from your spouse is probably a bad idea and in some cases is morally wrong, but that has nothing to do with the case against porn itself.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

tacoma said:


> Clueless.
> 
> :rofl:


I'm often amused by the disconnect between men saying that porn is harmless, meaningless, has no impact on my marriage, does not affect my sex life, has absolutely nothing to do with how I feel about my wife and

then saying, "no way in hell is some crazy b*tch going to be able to pull porn out of my cold, dead hands or interfere with my Darwinian right to use up as many women as possible in the pursuits of my sexual gratification."


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

always_alone said:


> I'm often amused by the disconnect between men saying that porn is harmless, meaningless, has no impact on my marriage, does not affect my sex life, has absolutely nothing to do with how I feel about my wife and
> 
> then saying, "no way in hell is some crazy b*tch going to be able to pull porn out of my cold, dead hands or interfere with my Darwinian right to use up as many women as possible in the pursuits of my sexual gratification."


I think you're looking in the wrong place for the disconnect. The disconnect is in the incredulity that one partner has regarding the other seeing a genre of entertainment media as being some form of threat. If the offended partner was equally insistent that the other give up sitcoms, or sports, or action movies, or musicals, or science-fiction books, or spy novels, etc. I'm sure most of us would be looking at them askance and wondering if there might be a problem with perspective, or granting that entertainment genre just a wee bit more power than it has. But, make that genre centered around nekkid people, and, by gum, it must be eternally banished.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I'm often amused by the disconnect between men saying that porn is harmless, meaningless, has no impact on my marriage, does not affect my sex life, has absolutely nothing to do with how I feel about my wife and
> 
> then saying,* "no way in hell is some crazy b*tch going to be able to pull porn out of my cold, dead hands or interfere with my Darwinian right to use up as many women as possible in the pursuits of my sexual gratification."*



Be as sardonic as you like, but the crux of the dilemma you highlight is clear:

Why should any grown, consenting adult be expected to forsake something merely because another grown, consenting adult disapproves. Why would marriage suddenly grant any woman the right to transform from lover and romantic suitor to mother of a minor child? Because that is precisely the role you request when you suggest that a grown up, that *you chose* to marry, must give up anything based off your own objections.

Best you, or anyone can do, is make your feelings known, and be prepared to take action if the other grown up in your marriage choses not to buckle to your demands.

Don't want to be in a marriage with somebody who watches porn, and who sees no issue with watching porn? Fine, then have the personal integrity, and self worth, to leave such a marriage behind.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> So are you suggesting that porn is the only thing that has changed? How do you know it is porn that is having the effect you claim? It could be any of the myriad of social changes that have occurred over the last 50 years. That is assuming you are right that we all 'prefer casual hookups'. Very few of my friends and family members 'prefer casual hookups' yet all the men use porn.


Cool. I'm glad we can agree on some of this. It shows that these discussions need not endlessly go in circles without ever moving forward.

And it is heartening to learn that rape statistics have gone down around the world despite increased consumption of porn, but nonetheless, I still think there are very good reasons for being critical of porn that have nothing to do with prudery.

Negative effects on relationships have been documented in a few places and show porn can affect men's attitudes towards women. Interestingly, in some cases men who viewed it were more likely to believe that women should occupy stereotypical gender roles, be less independent, and to not be overly sexual. (Does this perhaps better describe your friends and family?) In others, it was increased problems with intimacy, decreased sexual satisfaction, and decreased satisfaction with a relationship and current partner.

So the truth is, I don't actually know that porn is responsible for changing attitudes about sexuality in society. There are probably a myriad reasons. But there is at least some evidence that it does incline people towards certain expectations and desires about what women are and should be, and what sex is and should be. And sadly, reality doesn't seem to be as attractive as the fantasy.




johnnycomelately said:


> I am an ardent feminist and I have never claimed that feminism is an issue here.


I have to confess I have trouble reconciling "ardent feminist" with porn use. Of course, I realize that there is "feminist" porn out there, but most men tend to disparage it as "boring". And frankly, the depictions in mainstream porn are (from what I've seen) pretty degrading for the most part. Add to that the abuses in the industry, and I really don't get how men cannot see (or so easily overlook?) just how awful and degrading so much of porn is. If there was any way you could explain that to me, I would love to hear it. 

Hmmm, or would that be too much of a threadjack? I've probably gone too far already....


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Grayson said:


> If the offended partner was equally insistent that the other give up sitcoms, or sports, or action movies, or musicals, or science-fiction books, or spy novels, etc. I'm sure most of us would be looking at them askance and wondering if there might be a problem with perspective, or granting that entertainment genre just a wee bit more power than it has. But, make that genre centered around nekkid people, and, by gum, it must be eternally banished.


As far as I know, no man has ever suggested that his wife act or look more like Betty or Veronica, or wish that she could climb walls like Lara Croft, or deflect bullets like Wonder Woman. Yet I've just posted information showing that porn does seem to affect how men view their wives and relationships.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

always_alone said:


> If there was any way you could explain that to me, I would love to hear it.


You have made this request of the men of TAM countless times before regarding this topic, and no matter how much one of us tries to give you honest, unchecked views into the male psyche you always pushback with the same tirades against all things porn, and ultimately, many things male. 

At some point it might serve you best to stop trying to wrangle men into using them as yet another launch point for your anti-male agenda, and just be perfectly honest upfront about your intentions. You do not like pornagraphy. You really don't seem to honestly like men, as a sex, on the whole at all. That's fine, but please stop making pleas to understand that which you've shown no inclination to honestly even want to comprehend.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Be as sardonic as you like, but the crux of the dilemma you highlight is clear:
> 
> Why should any grown, consenting adult be expected to forsake something merely because another grown, consenting adult disapproves.


By the same token, why should I forsake flirting with other men, or going out dancing dressed up in the sexiest garb I can find? Or close my dating profile or virtual sex account? Heck, why should I give up leaving my dirty dishes in the sink, forcing myself to rinse them and put them in the dishwasher right away? Or leaving my socks littered around the house?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

jaquen said:


> You have made this request of the men of TAM countless times before regarding this topic, and no matter how much one of us tries to give you honest, unchecked views into the male psyche you always pushback with the same tirades against all things porn, and ultimately, many things male.
> 
> At some point it might serve you best to stop trying to wrangle men into using them as yet another launch point for your anti-male agenda, and just be perfectly honest upfront about your intentions. You do not like pornagraphy. You really don't seem to honestly like men, as a sex, on the whole at all. That's fine, but please stop making pleas to understand that which you've shown no inclination to honestly even want to comprehend.


Thank you for the personality inventory and assumptions about my intentions. Truth is, though, no one has actually ever even tried to answer that question for me.

No, I lie: One man told me that he too did not understand how he could just ignore the degrading aspects, but he could and did.

The rest just called me anti-male, feminazi, and any other names they could think of because I had the audacity to dislike something that they hold so dear to their hearts and souls.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

always_alone said:


> By the same token, why should I forsake flirting with other men, or going out dancing dressed up in the sexiest garb I can find? Or close my dating profile or virtual sex account? Heck, why should I give up leaving my dirty dishes in the sink, forcing myself to rinse them and put them in the dishwasher right away? Or leaving my socks littered around the house?


If:

- Flirting with other men
- Dancing in your finest freakum wear
- Continuing to date and/or have virtual sex
- Being a general slob


Are aspects of your life that you honestly have no desire, or intention, of ceasing when you marry a man, then why should you? Shouldn't you be upfront with your man about this stuff before you get married, so that he can ascertain whether he wants to proceed forward with you? And if you weren't honest, and then you were caught, and still don't feel you should give up any of the above, then shouldn't your husband leave you to find somebody else whose views on marriage better mesh with his own?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

jaquen said:


> If:
> 
> - Flirting with other men
> - Dancing in your finest freakum wear
> ...


Okay. that seems fair enough. But, why would I be so attached to these activities that I cannot even bear the thought of discussing a compromise with someone I supposedly love and am committed to, especially if he is able to point to actual negative consequences of my behaviour for our relationship?


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

I'm mad that there's not more porn geared towards women. I have to look at gay porn to find a hot man. 
Most others are hairy and gross. 
Just saying. 

And if a woman says up front she doesn't want her old man lookin at porn, and he says, I don't look at porn, then later on she discovers he does, then all porn aside...it makes him a liar at best and she should be miffed. 

I expect every man I see, not just 70% of them, look at porn at the VERY LEAST weekly. 

Maybe that's sexist, whatever. But that's my one cent. I got another one floating around this thread, so there's actually my two cents. Feelin silly tonight  
sorry!


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

always_alone said:


> And it is heartening to learn that rape statistics have gone down around the world despite increased consumption of porn


There is no 'despite' about it. If 'A' causes 'B' then it follows that a rise in 'A' will cause a rise in 'B'. There is no denying that unless you deny the law of cause and effect. The fact that porn has risen exponentially and rape has plummeted means you can only come to two conclusions:

A) Porn use reduces the incidence of rape, as many experts believe.
B) Porn use has no effect on rape whatsoever.




always_alone said:


> can affect men's attitudes towards women. Interestingly, in some cases men who viewed it were more likely to believe that women should occupy stereotypical gender roles, be less independent, and to not be overly sexual.


Again this is logically impossible. Women's rights have risen faster in the last twenty years than in all of human history. How could this possibly happen if porn has the effects you claim? 



always_alone said:


> (Does this perhaps better describe your friends and family?)


Not in the slightest.


always_alone said:


> In others, it was increased problems with intimacy, decreased sexual satisfaction, and decreased satisfaction with a relationship and current partner.


The weight of scientific evidence is against you on this one. The only study you produced that suggested that this may be an effect attributable to porn was one of a type that you dismissed as weak.






always_alone said:


> I have to confess I have trouble reconciling "ardent feminist" with porn use. Of course, I realize that there is "feminist" porn out there, but most men tend to disparage it as "boring". And frankly, the depictions in mainstream porn are (from what I've seen) pretty degrading for the most part. Add to that the abuses in the industry, and I really don't get how men cannot see (or so easily overlook?) just how awful and degrading so much of porn is. If there was any way you could explain that to me, I would love to hear it.


I find it strange that you find it hard to reconcile the two. I find it hard to reconcile anti-porn attitudes with feminism. Surely the right for women to use their bodies as they see fit is part and parcel of feminism. You just have to look at the company you keep as a porn-hater. Saudi Arabian religious police, conservative African societies which view women as subservient to men, the religious right who think women should obey men. You say that porn affects the way men view women. Why is it that the societies where porn is endemic are those where women have most rights?

It is interesting that neither you nor any of the other anti-porn posters have mentioned that some porn might be degrading to men. There are millions of films out there that depict men being stamped on, spat on, whipped and sodomised. Why not mention it? Is it because you think men deserve it? Are men not affected by it? Are women more emotionally delicate? Whatever way you look at it it seems to indicate sexism of some kind, or you don't really believe that having sex in front of a camera is degrading.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Okay. that seems fair enough. But, why would I be so attached to these activities that I cannot even bear the thought of discussing a compromise with someone I supposedly love and am committed to, especially if he is able to point to actual negative consequences of my behaviour for our relationship?



But if those elements are important enough to you, and you have no moral objections to them, why in the world would you be in a relationship with somebody who clearly does?

It's not hard to find a person who is open to the same things you are. This line of discussion always supposes that it's a rare thing to find somebody who sees marriage in a similar light. It is not. Plenty of women watch porn, or have no problem with their men watching. Just as there are plenty of men who have no problem being married to a woman who still likes to throw on her freak wear and hit the clubs.

It shouldn't be this difficult. Don't marry somebody who has fundamental problems with the things in life that you enjoy.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I don't have any particular moral issue with porn, I have a good friend that I've known for decades that runs a porn site and it keeps her off of welfare. I do think it can be destructive because it's so fake, in that a lot of people have trouble keeping it completely separate from their real life relationships. Also, as most of it is geared toward men, it sends a constant message to men that they can take and not give and the woman will still be screaming at the top of her lungs in pleasure. IF you can keep this separate and realize that it has little to no basis in reality it might be ok. One test I think should be applied though is what I like to call the hypocrite test. Is it ok for your wife or daughter to participate if that's what she wants to do? Or should it only be other peoples loved ones? My husband has a lovely grown daughter and he would blow a gasket if she became involved in porn. But why is it ok for other peoples daughters and not yours? Fortunately he's not a big user of porn so it's not an issue for us, but I do think it's a question with asking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't have any particular moral issue with porn, I have a good friend that I've known for decades that runs a porn site and it keeps her off of welfare. I do think it can be destructive because it's so fake, in that a lot of people have trouble keeping it completely separate from their real life relationships. Also, as most of it is geared toward men, it sends a constant message to men that they can take and not give and the woman will still be screaming at the top of her lungs in pleasure. IF you can keep this separate and realize that it has little to no basis in reality it might be ok.


This is a concern that I just have difficulty accepting. (Not that the concern exists, but that there's any "bite" to it.) Are you equally concerned that these same people's views of all other aspects of life are likewise influenced by fiction. Do they expect a hospital visit to be like an episode of _House_, for example? I've seen some claim that this expectational influence comes from the actors often portraying fictionalized versions of themselves. But, do those same people think that Jerry Seinfeld's everyday life played out like an episode of _Seinfeld_? That ZZ Top's Billy Gibbons is really the father of an artist/computer expert/facial reconstruction specialist who works with the FBI, like the fictionalized version of himself he occasionally plays on _Bones_? I don't doubt that there are SOME who have this sort of difficulty separating fiction from reality. But, that is an issue with that person, not his or her choices of entertainment genre.



> One test I think should be applied though is what I like to call the hypocrite test. Is it ok for your wife or daughter to participate if that's what she wants to do? Or should it only be other peoples loved ones? My husband has a lovely grown daughter and he would blow a gasket if she became involved in porn. But why is it ok for other peoples daughters and not yours? Fortunately he's not a big user of porn so it's not an issue for us, but I do think it's a question with asking.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A logical question.

As far as a daughter is concerned, this can be nothing more than an intellectual exercise for me. But, I like to think that I'd support her in whatever choices she made, as long as they're legal and not harmful to hersf or others (yes, there's a while side-argument there, but for the same of discussion lets assume she's working for one of the above-board companies). I would, at that point, choose to become more selective in my viewing options, because her work would just plain not be something I'd want to see personally.

Regarding my wife, different kettle of fish. Not because either of us disapproves of porn, but because her being with another man is a boundary that I have. If she exclusively did scenes with other women, we'd have to sit down and discuss, as she's had my blessing for years to satisfy that (admitted) curiosity should she so choose, as long as I am in the room.

Some couples, however, are fine with it. That's up to each coulke's personal boundaries and limitations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> IF you can keep this separate and realize that it has little to no basis in reality it might be ok. One test I think should be applied though is what I like to call the hypocrite test. Is it ok for your wife or daughter to participate if that's what she wants to do? Or should it only be other peoples loved ones? My husband has a lovely grown daughter and he would blow a gasket if she became involved in porn. But why is it ok for other peoples daughters and not yours? Fortunately he's not a big user of porn so it's not an issue for us, but I do think it's a question with asking.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bad analogy.

The true comparison would be said man doing porn himself, but taking a stand against his daughter or wife doing porn themselves.

Your analogy is classic strawman. There is no inherent hypocrisy there. My mother loved movies, but initially didn't want me to become an actor. Just as you might love hotdogs, but not want your child to grow up and spend their lives working for minimum wage at the Oscar Mayer factory. Enjoying a product, which porn is, but not wanting your child, or other loved one, to take up a career making said product is not hypocrisy.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

always_alone said:


> As far as I know, no man has ever suggested that his wife act or look more like Betty or Veronica,


Betty and Veronica are the original "Ginger or Mary Ann" conversation, as to which appealed to the reader/viewer more.



> or wish that she could climb walls like Lara Croft,


Never, ever played a Tomb Raider game nor watched either of the movies, so couldn't tell you what qualities the audience might see in Lara Croft.



> or deflect bullets like Wonder Woman.


Deflect bullets, no, but some do enjoy the roleplay of their wife/gf putting on the costume and thing them up. There's even a joke about it in the Rodney Dangerfield movie _Back to School_:

Diane: Hello, Philip. 
Dr. Phillip Barbay: What did he want? 
Diane: Oh! What do ALL men want? 
Dr. Phillip Barbay: [wryly] He wants you to dress up as Wonder Woman? Tie him up with a golden lariat and force him to tell the truth? 
Diane: No, just dinner, Philip. 



> Yet I've just posted information showing that porn does seem to affect how men view their wives and relationships.


Yet I've not claimed that this NEVER happens. What I have proposed is that it's the vast minority of circumstances for those who view porn, and is inherent not in what is being viewed by who is doing the viewing. Or is it also your contention that, say, the U2 song "Exit" really did influence Robert John Bardo to murder actress Rebecca Schaeffer?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Bad analogy.
> 
> The true comparison would be said man doing porn himself, but taking a stand against his daughter or wife doing porn themselves.
> 
> Your analogy is classic strawman. There is no inherent hypocrisy there. My mother loved movies, but initially didn't want me to become an actor. Just as you might love hotdogs, but not want your child to grow up and spend their lives working for minimum wage at the Oscar Mayer factory. Enjoying a product, which porn is, but not wanting your child, or other loved one, to take up a career making said product is not hypocrisy.


Sorry, have to disagree. You have to ask yourself WHY you're mother didn't want you acting. Is it because she finds acting to be degrading? If so and she still watches movies your argument is valid. If is because she finds acting to be an unstable fields that's another argument. If you don't want you daughter in porn because it's an unstable field that's fine, but if you don't want your daughter in porn because it's degrading but you still watch it then it fails the hypocrite test. As for the Oscar Meyer argument, it's true that you don't want your kid working for minimum wage their whole life but if they did it for a while as a young person that's ok. If you're fine with your daughter doing porn for a bit as a young person who will move up the ladder (so to speak) that amounts to the same thing. Most people don't want their kids waiting tables their while life but would be fine with it for a while. Not so with porn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Grayson said:


> This is a concern that I just have difficulty accepting. (Not that the concern exists, but that there's any "bite" to it.) Are you equally concerned that these same people's views of all other aspects of life are likewise influenced by fiction. Do they expect a hospital visit to be like an episode of _House_, for example? I've seen some claim that this expectational influence comes from the actors often portraying fictionalized versions of themselves. But, do those same people think that Jerry Seinfeld's everyday life played out like an episode of _Seinfeld_? That ZZ Top's Billy Gibbons is really the father of an artist/computer expert/facial reconstruction specialist who works with the FBI, like the fictionalized version of himself he occasionally plays on _Bones_? I don't doubt that there are SOME who have this sort of difficulty separating fiction from reality. But, that is an issue with that person, not his or her choices of entertainment genre.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fair argument regarding your wife, I thought about that after I posted it. You'll have to revisit this should you have a daughter; I know for a fact my hb's views on this have changed as he's watched his daughter grow up, and I have another close friend that has twin 18 month old daughters and he's told me that his views on such things have already started to change as he watches them. I really don't care who watches porn, as long as it's legal of course, I just think these discussions need to be had.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> You'll have to revisit this should you have a daughter


Oh, that's the least of what will have to be revisited should we ever have a daughter.

First on the list would be the records of the tubal ligation and later hysterectomy that my wife's OB-GYN has performed, and where this daughter came from.

I smell malpractice suit and/or reality show. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Grayson said:


> Oh, that's the least of what will have to be revisited should we ever have a daughter.
> 
> First on the list would be the records of the tubal ligation and later hysterectomy that my wife's OB-GYN has performed, and where this daughter came from.
> 
> ...




Apologies, I had no idea. Fwiw, there will be no daughters for me either, though I have been blessed with two boys. Just as well, at least with boys you only have to worry about one d!!k, with girls you have to worry about all of then. At least that's what the army used to tell us 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> Apologies, I had no idea. Fwiw, there will be no daughters for me either, though I have been blessed with two boys. Just as well, at least with boys you only have to worry about one d!!k, with girls you have to worry about all of then. At least that's what the army used to tell us
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No need to apologize, because there's no reason you would have known. Thus, tongue firmly planted in cheek in my last response.

Now, continuing with the intimlectual exercise, would it be my first choice of a career option for her? Nah. Because people are incredibly judgmental about those in any level of the adult entertainment industry. (Just look at some of the views in threads like this one. Far more often than not, the ones speaking ill of them are the ones saying they're being objectified and dehumanized by the viewers.) But, if we're assuming a bright daughter aware of all options available to her, going in with eyes open, that's her choice to make. Porn actors, strippers, etc...they're all people. On our trips to the strip club, my wife and I have had great conversations with some of the dancers, most often about absolutely nothing to do with stripping or the adult entertainment industry in general.

If she's a hot mess, all bets are off. At that point, though, I'm guessing that her choice of profession is just another log on the fire.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Sorry, have to disagree. You have to ask yourself WHY you're mother didn't want you acting. Is it because she finds acting to be degrading? If so and she still watches movies your argument is valid. If is because she finds acting to be an unstable fields that's another argument. If you don't want you daughter in porn because it's an unstable field that's fine, but if you don't want your daughter in porn because it's degrading but you still watch it then it fails the hypocrite test. As for the Oscar Meyer argument, it's true that you don't want your kid working for minimum wage their whole life but if they did it for a while as a young person that's ok. If you're fine with your daughter doing porn for a bit as a young person who will move up the ladder (so to speak) that amounts to the same thing. Most people don't want their kids waiting tables their while life but would be fine with it for a while. Not so with porn.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let me make sure I have this perfectly clear...

You're supposing that any human beings that partakes in any given product must then approve of their loved ones involvement in the making of any given product, lest they be branded a hypocrite?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Grayson said:


> No need to apologize, because there's no reason you would have known. Thus, tongue firmly planted in cheek in my last response.
> 
> Now, continuing with the intimlectual exercise, would it be my first choice of a career option for her? Nah. Because people are incredibly judgmental about those in any level of the adult entertainment industry. (Just look at some of the views in threads like this one. Far more often than not, the ones speaking ill of them are the ones saying they're being objectified and dehumanized by the viewers.) But, if we're assuming a bright daughter aware of all options available to her, going in with eyes open, that's her choice to make. Porn actors, strippers, etc...they're all people. On our trips to the strip club, my wife and I have had great conversations with some of the dancers, most often about absolutely nothing to do with stripping or the adult entertainment industry in general.
> 
> ...



Well, not that it really matters what I think but I believe your argument is appropriately nuanced and passes the hypocrite test. If I understand you, you don't necessarily find it degrading yourself, you're just concerned about the societal consequences and that she possesses good judgment. I think those arguments are valid and a far cry from "no daughter of mine is participating in that trash, now excuse me while I get off on someone else's daughter participating in said trash".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Let me make sure I have this perfectly clear...
> 
> You're supposing that any human beings that partakes in any given product must then approve of their loved ones involvement in the making of any given product, lest they be branded a hypocrite?



Yes, if the reason behind your objection is that you find their participation trashy or degrading. If you object for other reasons it might be a different story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> Well, not that it really matters what I think but I believe your argument is appropriately nuanced and passes the hypocrite test. If I understand you, you don't necessarily find it degrading yourself, you're just concerned about the societal consequences and that she possesses good judgment. I think those arguments are valid and a far cry from "no daughter of mine is participating in that trash, now excuse me while I get off on someone else's daughter participating in said trash".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm reminded, oddly enough, of an image that's stuck in my head from an issue of Playboy from many years ago.

In one it their "Girls of the {insert college classification - Ivy League, Big 10, etc}" pictorials, as they often did at the time, they included a picture or two of the protests on campus when they showed up as announced to scout talent. A protester held a sign that said, "Do you want your picture masturbated on?" My reaction to that was always, (generic) she may not *want* it, but if she's chosen to be in Playboy, I think she's made her peace with the idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Grayson said:


> I'm reminded, oddly enough, of an image that's stuck in my head from an issue of Playboy from many years ago.
> 
> In one it their "Girls of the {insert college classification - Ivy League, Big 10, etc}" pictorials, as they often did at the time, they included a picture or two of the protests on campus when they showed up as announced to scout talent. A protester held a sign that said, "Do you want your picture masturbated on?" My reaction to that was always, (generic) she may not *want* it, but if she's chosen to be in Playboy, I think she's made her peace with the idea.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True dat, but I would think part of the reason to pose for Playboy IS to have your picture ejaculated on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> Again this is logically impossible. Women's rights have risen faster in the last twenty years than in all of human history. How could this possibly happen if porn has the effects you claim?


No. Most gains in women's rights were before the meteoric rise of porn. 



johnnycomelately said:


> Not in the slightest. The weight of scientific evidence is against you on this one. The only study you produced that suggested that this may be an effect attributable to porn was one of a type that you dismissed as weak.


There are several studies on this. If you really want me to produce them all I will. What I posted was just a sampler to show that yes, indeed there are peer reviewed scientific studies that show negative effects from porn.

And I get what you're saying about the company I am in, and trust me, conservative fundamentalism is not what I'm trying to push. 

But, and I will try to say this as carefully as I can so as not to be misunderstood, a feminism that extols the sex trade as grand evidence of a women's right to choose is a poor feminism indeed, IMHO. 

Let me be clear, I am not saying that a woman should not be able to choose to sell her body if that really is what she wants to do. But a woman's ability to sell her body is nothing new, and no evidence of her empowerment. And the conditions under which most in the industry choose to do so are desperate conditions indeed.

Add to that the often disturbing messages being depicted, and I really can't see how it is that porn serves women's equality or human rights.

This is not to say that I think all sexual imagery is evil or immoral. As fuzzy and difficult as it is, I see a line between erotic and pornographic. And because that line is so difficult I am uncomfortable with censorship, and agree prohibitions should be reserved for only the most egregious offenders. 

But I also think the qualifiers matter -- who, what, when, why, how much, and what are the real costs. The cavalier attitude that "men dig nekkid chicks, get over it" is just so utterly disrespectful and head in the sand that it makes my jaw drop. There's a whole thread of men upset that they are not respected by women; why is it so hard to understand why women might get upset when they are not respected?

As for the men, I haven't seem the stuff you are describing, so am mostly familiar with male POV that always shows him as the viewer/cummer and her as the object/receptacle. But I'm sure I would feel pretty much the same about it.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Grayson said:


> Yet I've not claimed that this NEVER happens. What I have proposed is that it's the vast minority of circumstances for those who view porn, and is inherent not in what is being viewed by who is doing the viewing. Or is it also your contention that, say, the U2 song "Exit" really did influence Robert John Bardo to murder actress Rebecca Schaeffer?


Hypothetically speaking, would you readjust your sense of how often this was a problem if

-- Every time you walk in the room your SO closes a window of porn and pretends she's doing something else.
-- She can't wait for you to leave the house so she can open it up again, but when you try to have sex with her, she is just too tired. Or if she agrees, she is lackluster because it really isn't measuring up to what she saw on the internet earlier. 
--she's getting pissy with you because you're not that interested in her new ball-crushing toy
-- when you start to complain, she tells you that it has nothing to do with you, it's meaningless, she just needs to view some nekkid dudes to relax. She still loves you, but no, she's doesn't see any reason to change her behaviour. What are you so insecure?
--you seek other perspectives and read thread after thread of women wishing their husbands and bf's would act more like porn stars. (Why won't he take it up the a$$, they all do in porn? Why is he so booooring in bed? If only his d*ck was bigger..)
--you ask for help, and someone tells you to get a spray tan to change the color of your skin (eg this thread) or get cosmetic surgery, or whatever to better appeal to her 
--you suggest that there might be something wrong with this picture that isn't entirely your fault, and the only response is to call you a woman-hating, clueless loser who should live alone forever

I get that most men have only ever been on the "fun" side of porn, and so might have trouble even noticing that there's another side. But there often is.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> True dat, but I would think part of the reason to pose for Playboy IS to have your picture ejaculated on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Welcome to the point. ;-)

Or, the other part of my reaction to that sign: "Maybe not _on_, but probably _to_."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

always_alone said:


> Hypothetically speaking, would you readjust your sense of how often this was a problem if
> 
> -- Every time you walk in the room your SO closes a window of porn and pretends she's doing something else.
> -- She can't wait for you to leave the house so she can open it up again, but when you try to have sex with her, she is just too tired. Or if she agrees, she is lackluster because it really isn't measuring up to what she saw on the internet earlier.
> ...


Again, not saying that no one (man or woman) ever misuses porn. Even in light of your examples, I would say that it is the minority of occurrences. I would also say, though, that in (for example) a forum such as TAM that a perception may be had of such occurrences being more prevalent due to the very nature of the forum. That is, you are far more likely to encounter such stories being related than you are to see stories of, "My spouse likes porn, and everything's great with us." And, that's not an indictment of the presence of the negative stories, nor a dismissal of them. It's just that the nature of a support forum is people with problems (real or perceived) seeking input from others.

I'll also grant you that it can be easy for those of us on this side of the issue to become overly defensive, as we often see what is ultimately a genre of entertainment little different than any other granted far more inherent power than it truly has. Which is to say, it has no inherent power...it has only the power that one allows it to have, whether that one is the one who enjoys it or the one who doesn't. So, as we make our counterpoints, along the way we encounter those who go overboard on the other side of the issue and, sometimes, probably just as quickly (and incorrectly) assume that everyone on the other side is just as extreme.

Personally, I at least try to keep in mind that most I us on both sides of the porn issue aren't at an extreme but at different spots somewhere in between.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

It's interesting that this thread focuses almost exclusively on the effect porn has on women. But what about men? If it's harmful and degrading to women, then wouldn't gay porn be harmful and degrading to men? Does gay porn encourage men to rape men? For that matter, does lesbian porn encourage women to rape women? It sounds ridiculous, but that's the path you have to follow if you think porn is harmful to women. 

I look at this this way - the countries that ban porn (Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc) tend to be the countries that treat women the worst. I don't want to emulate them.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Theseus said:


> It's interesting that this thread focuses almost exclusively on the effect porn has on women. But what about men? If it's harmful and degrading to women, then wouldn't gay porn be harmful and degrading to men? Does gay porn encourage men to rape men? For that matter, does lesbian porn encourage women to rape women? It sounds ridiculous, but that's the path you have to follow if you think porn is harmful to women.
> 
> *I look at this this way - the countries that ban porn (Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc) tend to be the countries that treat women the worst. I don't want to emulate them.*


:smthumbup: Valid point indeed. Equality for all.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

always_alone said:


> No. Most gains in women's rights were before the meteoric rise of porn.


Firstly, I am not talking about just the US. The rise of porn availability in Eastern and Southern Europe coincided with an unprecedented rise in women's rights. In the US since the 1980s, generally seen as when the steepest rise in porn use began, we have seen:

1980s

The first women elected to the supreme court.
First female ambassador to the UN
The first female astronaut
First woman nominated for Vice President

1990 - now

First female Attorney General
First female fighter pilot
Fist female Secretary of State
Hilary Clinton first leading female candidate for President.
Record number of women in Senate and Congress
Record number of female CEOs

Yet again you are claiming that there can be cause without effect. It is simply impossible that 70% of the male population is getting more sexist, yet the lot of women has improved. 

Frankly the very idea that watching people have sex makes you believe that believe that "women should occupy stereotypical gender roles, be less independent, and to not be overly sexual" is so far-fetched that it is ridiculous. 

If you look at maps showing societies which hold negative attitudes to women and the availability of porn you see an inverse relationship. Countries where porn is illegal and not socially acceptable have the highest levels of gender inequality. This argument is a dead duck. 



always_alone said:


> There are several studies on this. If you really want me to produce them all I will. What I posted was just a sampler to show that yes, indeed there are peer reviewed scientific studies that show negative effects from porn.


Yes, of a type that you dismissed. There are many peer-reviewed statistical studies which show the opposite. You dismiss mine by one set of criteria which you refuse to apply to your own. This is pure confirmation bias.



always_alone said:


> And I get what you're saying about the company I am in, and trust me, conservative fundamentalism is not what I'm trying to push.


That is exactly what you are trying to push. You hold a minority view which you believe should apply to even those who disagree with you. 




always_alone said:


> But, and I will try to say this as carefully as I can so as not to be misunderstood, a feminism that extols the sex trade as grand evidence of a women's right to choose is a poor feminism indeed, IMHO.


So you try and conflate the porn industry in the Western world, which is legal, regulated and where participation is entirely voluntary, with the sex trade as a whole. That isn't going to fly. 

Littledeer and others have described the work these women do as 'trash' and have claimed that the porn industry is almost entirely made up of women who are undereducated drug addicts unable to look after themselves. To me that is very sexist. 

I defend the rights of women. I believe in equality. I reject stereo-typical gender roles (I was a SAHD) yet you say I am not a feminist. Again your fundamentalism rears its head. Only your definition of feminism is valid.



always_alone said:


> This is not to say that I think all sexual imagery is evil or immoral.


No, only sexual imagery enjoyed by men. 



always_alone said:


> But I also think the qualifiers matter -- who, what, when, why, how much, and what are the real costs. The cavalier attitude that "men dig nekkid chicks, get over it" is just so utterly disrespectful and head in the sand that it makes my jaw drop.


So the biological fact that men like to look at naked women is in itself disrespectful? That is an incredibly sexist view. Or is it the fact that we ask for acceptance for who we are that you find disrespectful? 



always_alone said:


> There's a whole thread of men upset that they are not respected by women; why is it so hard to understand why women might get upset when they are not respected?


Most people don't believe that viewing images of people having sex is not disrespectful. You seem to think the rest of the world just has to accept that it is without you giving reasons or evidence. 



always_alone said:


> As for the men, I haven't seem the stuff you are describing, so am mostly familiar with male POV that always shows him as the viewer/cummer and her as the object/receptacle.


You view the female sexual partner as an 'object/receptacle,' I don't, yet you are a feminist and I am not.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Just a heads up for the anti-porners. There is currently a "wife watches porn" thread up right now. You know, just in case you're interested in bringing the enlightenment to other women as well. I just happened to notice all of you missed that one. I'm sure it wasn't on purpose.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Just a heads up for the anti-porners. There is currently a "wife watches porn" thread up right now. You know, just in case you're interested in bringing the enlightenment to other women as well. I just happened to notice all of you missed that one. I'm sure it wasn't on purpose.


I'll wander over and have a look. Meanwhile, there's a couple of threads from men who are talking about how porn has negatively impacted their lives and relationships. Perhaps you didn't notice? 

Perhaps you should go straighten them out with some statistical studies and remind them of which country they're living in.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> Firstly, I am not talking about just the US. The rise of porn availability in Eastern and Southern Europe coincided with an unprecedented rise in women's rights.


The country with the highest ranked equality between the sexes in the world (not the US, btw, not by a long shot) has decided to implement greater censorship of porn. Why? Because of the social costs.

And you've only cited a tiny handful of gains for women in the last three decades. Most of them before widespread use of the Internet. Are you refuting my point or confirming it?

I am not ignoring the information you're presenting, just attempting to provide some balance. 



johnnycomelately said:


> This is pure confirmation bias.


Pot, meet kettle.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

always_alone said:


> I'll wander over and have a look. Meanwhile, there's a couple of threads from men who are talking about how porn has negatively impacted their lives and relationships. Perhaps you didn't notice?
> 
> Perhaps you should go straighten them out with some statistical studies and remind them of which country their living in.


This may be an alien concept to you, but I respect the right of any adult to govern his or her own fantasy life, within legal limits. If these men feel that porn has negatively impacted their relationships (against the many who have said it hasn't) they have every right to stop using it.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> This may be an alien concept to you, but I respect the right of any adult to govern his or her own fantasy life, within legal limits. If these men feel that porn has negatively impacted their relationships (against the many who have said it hasn't) they have every right to stop using it.


Errrr, yes, of course. I wasn't actually serious -- just pointing out the double standard.

Edited to add: Actually all fantasy is legal -- and none of it can be controlled by anyone other than the person who has them. It's just when you start dragging other people into making it real for you that it can start becoming a problem.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

always_alone said:


> The country with the highest ranked equality between the sexes in the world (not the US, btw, not by a long shot) has decided to implement greater censorship of porn. Why? Because of the social costs.


Nice try. Iceland is 'thinking about' banning violent porn, not porn altogether. I wholeheartedly agree with the banning of violent porn.

_"This initiative is about narrowing the definition of porn so it does not include all sexually explicit material but rather material that can be described as portraying sexual activity in a *violent *or *hateful* way."_



always_alone said:


> And you've only cited a tiny handful of gains for women in the last three decades. Most of them before widespread use of the Internet. Are you refuting my point or confirming it?


You know very well that if you are making an assertion the onus is on you to prove that assertion. You have failed. There is no evidence of a widespread downturn in the rights of women, nor an upturn in negative attitudes against women since the 80s that can be attributed to porn. Proving this point is vital if you are to prove your assertion that viewing porn makes you sexist.



always_alone said:


> I am not ignoring the information you're presenting, just attempting to provide some balance.


I accept that is what you say you are doing, but it seems to me that you have a fundamental objection to male sexuality, viewing it as disrespectful, which makes it hard to see balance in your argument. Your instinct seems to be to paint anyone who defends porn as sexist and unprincipled. That is not the case. 

You are welcome to trawl my posts and point out where I have made sexists comments. Defending the rights of men does not necessarily mean attacking the rights of women. Not all those who are pro-porn are male, let alone sexist. 

The fact that I am here vigorously defending what I believe in means I am not unprincipled. Having a different point of view does not mean being unprincipled.

People who view porn have been subjected to horrific vitriol on this site. We have been compared to paedophiles, rapists and cheaters and we have been accused of condoning the exploitation of women. There is a need for balance here, but not in favour of the anti-porn faction.


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## PleasePursue (May 6, 2013)

johnnycomelately said:


> I'm glad that you are finally being honest about your objection to porn; a moral objection. My guess is that you are religious, probably evangelical or non-denominational Christian of some kind, which is where this 'moral' conviction comes from. That is fine, we all have our moral convictions but why try and cloak them in pseudoscience?
> 
> For the record I am open about my porn use with my wife and with any adult who cares to ask. keeping secrets from your spouse is probably a bad idea and in some cases is morally wrong, but that has nothing to do with the case against porn itself.


I actually do not consider myself to be religious at all. I need to clarify, I do not think to watch porn itself is morally wrong. If you are single or it is not an issue in your relationship then I feel that is fine. What is morally wrong is when your partner is so threatened, or hurt by the usage that you continue to keep it in secret or lie about it. If both parties enjoy it together or can be open about it then I suppose that would not be wrong. It's the secretiveness and choosing porn over your partner.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

PleasePursue said:


> I actually do not consider myself to be religious at all. I need to clarify, I do not think to watch porn itself is morally wrong. If you are single or it is not an issue in your relationship then I feel that is fine. What is morally wrong is when your partner is so threatened, or hurt by the usage that you continue to keep it in secret or lie about it. If both parties enjoy it together or can be open about it then I suppose that would not be wrong. It's the secretiveness and choosing porn over your partner.


Lying and neglect are unhealthy, whether it is about porn or any other activity. I do sympathise with people who hide their habits, though, when you see how so many people react to viewing porn. 

Luckily I don't have to hide my porn use from my wife. She is smart, confident and open-minded.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

The Iceland thought police are going down a slippery slope.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I'll wander over and have a look. Meanwhile, there's a couple of threads from men who are talking about how porn has negatively impacted their lives and relationships. Perhaps you didn't notice?
> 
> Perhaps you should go straighten them out with some statistical studies and remind them of which country they're living in.


You're getting your posters mixed up. We all don't share the same brain simply because we disagree with you about porn. I don't offer statistics and studies to support porn because I don't believe porn is inherently beneficial. I've never been in a statistics/studies battle with you, and I have no interest. I believe porn can be potentially very dangerous and destructive to a person, and that there is a very real underbelly to it. The difference between you and I is that I don't believe this is a black and white issue, but rather a gray one.

I also staunchly believe in the rights of adults to enjoy whatever they choose, as long as they are aware of the consequences.


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