# Betrayed and in disbelief



## scubagli

My "wife" we are not legally married, have a 3 year old daughter. We have lived together for 8 years, had our ups and downs, but I never expected this. She's been having an EA for the past 5 months, with a younger guy at work, it turned physical about 3 months ago. I found out 7 days ago. I've known something was wrong for awhile, I had attempted to find out what was bothering her a few times but got blown off each time. Now that I know I want to work things out, but she is indecisive, confused, and in love with him. They carry on by text, averaging 250 text back and forth a day. 23k messages since july. She is refusing to break off the affair, I don't know what to do, I love her, I love my daughter, she admits I'm not a bad guy, says she still has feelings for me, but has never felt like she feels for the om. He has a 1 month old daughter with his gf that he still lives with, the are broken up, she found out sooner then I did. I have told her I want to work things out but as long as she is in the relationship with the om there is no us.


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## scubagli

She has agreed to see a counselor with me, I'm seeing him tonight alone, and we have a tentitive joint appt on Friday if the counselor is going to be in town. I am going crazy right now trying to hold it together, I've confronted the om once by text telling to leave my family alone. He has not responded, what I'd really like to do is beat him to a pulp, the legal ramifications keep me from doing so. Thanks for listening any advise is welcome.


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## brooklynAnn

Not much you can do to change her mind at this time. She is in love with her soulmate. She loves him like she never loved you. Until, she wakes up from her fantasy, there is nothing you can do for her to change her mind.

However, you can work on you. Read up on the 180 and put in into action. This is about you trying to contain yourself and getting some sort of control of your life. Start taking care of yourself, looking out for your best interest and your kids. 

Carry on with the MC, many will tell you on TAM, it does not work while she is still seeing the OM and still in her fog. It's a stepping stone, hopefully she will wake up soon.

I wish you well. Keep posting, there are many people who will give you great advice here.


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## bfree

What have you done to kill the affair? Have you exposed it? Since you aren't married she can technically walk away at any time. You'll be responsible for child support but no alimony and you'll have partial custody. Some would advise that you go nuclear on her and expose to family, friends, job etc. Others would say you should turn your back on her so that she stops getting any support (emotional, financial, etc) from you. They'd advise you start the 180 to begin the process of detachment. What have you done so far?


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## NoChoice

OP,
It would be safe to assume that you want to work things out since you thought you were in a continuing relationship. Regrettably the decision is not up to you presently. She is immature and needs to grow up in order for her to want to save what she already has. The "180" is really all you can do at the moment. It helps you to detach from her and allows her to see she does not necessarily control the direction of your relationship. She cannot be reasoned with at this point so all you can do is work on you and be the best Dad you can be. Good fortune.


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## SecondTime'Round

Wow, she's with quite a winner, isn't she? It takes a very "special" kind of man to cheat on his pregnant wife.


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## scubagli

bfree said:


> What have you done to kill the affair? Have you exposed it? Since you aren't married she can technically walk away at any time. You'll be responsible for child support but no alimony and you'll have partial custody. Some would advise that you go nuclear on her and expose to family, friends, job etc. Others would say you should turn your back on her so that she stops getting any support (emotional, financial, etc) from you. They'd advise you start the 180 to begin the process of detachment. What have you done so far?


I haven't exposed it yet, her sister knows, she doesn't have any other family that she is in contact with, his girlfriend knows, I'm waiting to talk to the counselor tonight before I do any thing rash. I've expressed my desire to fix our "marrage", told her that I will not abandon our daughter. That I love her but we can't work on anything till he is out of the picture. I'm implementing the 180 now. I don't want to be a doormat, I don't want to share, I don't want my daughter to grow up in a broken home, like both her parents did. This is ****ed up, I know we have problems, I can't figure out why she went thru with this. She owns our house, I'm don't want to leave but I will. We work opposite hrs, and share child care duties. Every night while I'm at home putting our daughter to bed she's at work with him. It's killing me, she knows if we are going to stay together she has to quit her job. I think it's a big factor in her reluctance to end it.


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## Rugs

Why would you stay in a relationship with a person who doesn't love you romantically so a three year old can be "happy" ??

Give your daughter a chance to see what real happiness looks like. Move on!

File for custody of your daughter and meet a decent woman who wants to be faithful to her husband and raise a family together. Your girlfriend is not going to stop this affair until the guy dumps her. Once he dumps her, she will come back to you until another guy comes along..... Before you know it, you'll be a miserable middle-aged man who hates himself. 

What's wrong with this picture? Why on earth people tolerate this kind of behavior is beyond me. You can love someone but know they're not right for you. 

I love Chocolate cake but am allergic to it. I can't have it or it will make me sick. I find alternative good sweet foods I can enjoy and stay away from chocolate cake. It's not the end of the world. 

You should only use individual counseling to help you get over this woman. Do you honestly think things are ever going to be the same? They won't. You will be a cuckold. 

Please, for your daughter, yourself, and your future, let this woman go and move on. It won't be easy at first but think of it like exercise. Starting off is very difficult but if you stick with it, you will be in great shape and admired by everyone. 

Good luck.


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## MJJEAN

SecondTime'Round said:


> Wow, she's with quite a winner, isn't she? It takes a very "special" kind of man to cheat on his pregnant wife.


Neither couple is married. The reality is that these are single adults free to do as they please.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SecondTime'Round

MJJEAN said:


> Neither couple is married. The reality is that these are single adults free to do as they please.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh that's right, not married.

Still, in a committed relationship....no, not free to do as you choose. A marriage license is not the only thing that makes it immoral to cheat.


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## scubagli

Rugs said:


> Why would you stay in a relationship with a person who doesn't love you romantically so a three year old can be "happy" ??
> 
> Give your daughter a chance to see what real happiness looks like. Move on!
> 
> File for custody of your daughter and meet a decent woman who wants to be faithful to her husband and raise a family together. Your girlfriend is not going to stop this affair until the guy dumps her. Once he dumps her, she will come back to you until another guy comes along..... Before you know it, you'll be a miserable middle-aged man who hates himself.
> 
> What's wrong with this picture? Why on earth people tolerate this kind of behavior is beyond me. You can love someone but know they're not right for you.
> 
> I love Chocolate cake but am allergic to it. I can't have it or it will make me sick. I find alternative good sweet foods I can enjoy and stay away from chocolate cake. It's not the end of the world.
> 
> You should only use individual counseling to help you get over this woman. Do you honestly think things are ever going to be the same? They won't. You will be a cuckold.
> 
> Please, for your daughter, yourself, and your future, let this woman go and move on. It won't be easy at first but think of it like exercise. Starting off is very difficult but if you stick with it, you will be in great shape and admired by everyone.
> 
> Good luck.


I'm not a complete idiot, we were in love once, mutually, our relationship had problems, I'm not condoning her actions, but it doesn't have to be the end. I haven't been the best partner for the last year or so we haven't worked very hard on our problems. I'm hoping to change that, I'm not putting up with this behavior I just want to keep my family together, if things don't work out I'll move on.


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## Lila

@scubagli, can I ask you a question....why are you and your girlfriend not married? Was this a mutual decision? Were there financial implications to getting married?


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## scubagli

She has been divorced once already, I'm not sure why we never stood in front of a judge, I have always intended to but we never did it....I think she feels marriage may have ruined her previous relationship.


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## GusPolinski

scubagli said:


> My "wife" we are not legally married, have a 3 year old daughter. We have lived together for 8 years, had our ups and downs, but I never expected this. She's been having an EA for the past 5 months, with a younger guy at work, it turned physical about 3 months ago. I found out 7 days ago. I've known something was wrong for awhile, I had attempted to find out what was bothering her a few times but got blown off each time. Now that I know I want to work things out, but *she is indecisive, confused, and in love with him. They carry on by text, averaging 250 text back and forth a day. 23k messages since july. She is refusing to break off the affair*, I don't know what to do, I love her, I love my daughter, she admits I'm not a bad guy, *says she still has feelings for me, but has never felt like she feels for the om.* He has a 1 month old daughter with his gf that he still lives with, the are broken up, she found out sooner then I did. I have told her I want to work things out but as long as she is in the relationship with the om there is no us.


Well there you go.

Dump her.


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## Rugs

scubagli said:


> I'm not a complete idiot, we were in love once, mutually, our relationship had problems, I'm not condoning her actions, but it doesn't have to be the end. I haven't been the best partner for the last year or so we haven't worked very hard on our problems. I'm hoping to change that, I'm not putting up with this behavior I just want to keep my family together, if things don't work out I'll move on.


You are putting up with this behavior. She is still in her affair and unless I'm wrong, still at her job where OM works. 

Just because your relationship has problems and you may not have been a great guy should not be a reason for her to openly cheat on you. 

I don't think you can successfully counsel while your wife is still having contact with this man.


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## MJJEAN

SecondTime'Round said:


> Oh that's right, not married.
> 
> Still, in a committed relationship....no, not free to do as you choose. A marriage license is not the only thing that makes it immoral to cheat.


How is a single adult not free to do as they please? No one made any vows or signed any legally binding contracts regarding their relationship. Both OP and his "fiancee" are free to date and marry someone else if they wish.

Like it or not, there is a difference between gf and wife both legally and socially. 

If we're going to argue morality, a lot of people would say that living together and having a child together without marriage is just as immoral as cheating.

Besides, it looks like the only one in a committed relationship is OP. His gf seems to have been still looking. Which is her right as a single adult female.

BTW, this is the same thing I told my brother when his baby momma and live in gf of 6 years slept with some guy from work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lila

Scubagli you're in a tough situation. You're going to get a whole lot of advice on handling her affair, but in all honesty, you need to first determine if there is enough positive in your relationship to form a basis for saving it. In other words, aside from your child, what's the glue holding you two together? Are there specific needs that you meet for your girlfriend that she would hate giving up? These include financial, domestic support, sexual fulfillment, physical attraction, friendship, etc... I ask you this question because any demands you make of her will be for nothing if she doesn't see the value in keeping you around. You may want to save the relationship, but in her head, the relationship may have run it's course and there's nothing that you can do or say to make her want to give up her AP.


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## BetrayedDad

scubagli said:


> I'm not a complete idiot


No but you are allowing yourself to be played for a fool. 

And what makes you think your still her bf? As we speak, your gf treats you like the doormat babysitter while she goes to work and has sex with her real bf. She flat out says she loves HIM.

You've got to find some self esteem fast. She's been disrespecting you for 5 months and you're accepting the blame and begging her to work things out. Why are you allowing yourself to be treated like dog sh!t?

Think about that. She FVCKS another dude over and over and this is who you can't live without and want back?!? Doesn't that seem a little messed up? I'm assuming your not a sadist so don't you think you deserve better than a cheating slvt?

The only way, you have any chance, is for her to respect you again. And NO woman respects a man who begs her to work things out while she actively fvcks another man. This REPLUSES her. Trust me, the fantasy is going to come crashing down with this guy when she's changing his kid's poopy diaper. Nothing hot and heavy about that. 

You need to do the following today:

1) Do the 180 and start to emotionally detach from her. In her presence going forward you are "Mr. Spock". Utter indifference.

2) Start to separate all your finances. Bank accounts, bills, etc. Start apartment hunting and planning your exit strategy.

3) Go to the gym 3-4 times a week. Diet if you need to. Dress better and groom yourself. This will help your lack of confidence.

4) Tell her YOU are dumping her for CHEATING on you. Be crystal clear. Tell EVERYONE you know, you broke up and WHY. 

Good luck.


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## TheTruthHurts

BetrayedDad said:


> No but you are allowing yourself to be played for a fool.
> 
> And what makes you think your still her bf? As we speak, your gf treats you like the doormat babysitter while she goes to work and has sex with her real bf. She flat out says she loves HIM.
> 
> You've got to find some self esteem fast. She's been disrespecting you for 5 months and you're accepting the blame and begging her to work things out. Why are you allowing yourself to be treated like dog sh!t?
> 
> Think about that. She FVCKS another dude over and over and this is who you can't live without and want back?!? Doesn't that seem a little messed up? I'm assuming your not a sadist so don't you think you deserve better than a cheating slvt?
> 
> The only way, you have any chance, is for her to respect you again. And NO woman respects a man who begs her to work things out while she actively fvcks another man. This REPLUSES her. Trust me, the fantasy is going to come crashing down with this guy when she's changing his kid's poopy diaper. Nothing hot and heavy about that.
> 
> You need to do the following today:
> 
> 1) Do the 180 and start to emotionally detach from her. In her presence going forward you are "Mr. Spock". Utter indifference.
> 
> 2) Start to separate all your finances. Bank accounts, bills, etc. Start apartment hunting and planning your exit strategy.
> 
> 3) Go to the gym 3-4 times a week. Diet if you need to. Dress better and groom yourself. This will help your lack of confidence.
> 
> 4) Tell her YOU are dumping her for CHEATING on you. Be crystal clear. Tell EVERYONE you know, you broke up and WHY.
> 
> Good luck.



Yes this! For a quick change - some of this takes time - immediately change your clothing style and maybe your hair. Signal you are moving on and will do just fine without her. She needs to see something worthwhile that she will no longer be able to count on. Good luck.


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## scubagli

MJJEAN said:


> How is a single adult not free to do as they please? No one made any vows or signed any legally binding contracts regarding their relationship. Both OP and his "fiancee" are free to date and marry someone else if they wish.
> 
> Like it or not, there is a difference between gf and wife both legally and socially.
> 
> If we're going to argue morality, a lot of people would say that living together and having a child together without marriage is just as immoral as cheating.
> 
> Besides, it looks like the only one in a committed relationship is OP. His gf seems to have been still looking. Which is her right as a single adult female.
> 
> BTW, this is the same thing I told my brother when his baby momma and live in gf of 6 years slept with some guy from work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You seem to be looking at this from a Christian stand point, I am not a Christian we were in a committed relationship, we made vows to each other she wears my great great grandmother's engagement ring and a wedding band. The law doesn't change that, an ceremony doesn't change that. At this point I'm attempting damage control, for my innocent daughters sake I'm trying to avoid moving out.


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## BetrayedDad

scubagli said:


> At this point I'm attempting damage control, for my innocent daughters sake I'm trying to avoid moving out.


Stop... You are in victim mode. Your job is not to clean up her mess. Your mentality is ALL wrong. You reek of white knight nice guy rescuer. This is why she has lost respect for you. Because you are ENABLING her to cheat with these excuses. 

SHE should be in damage control mode. SHE caused the damage. The cheating is 100% on her. SHE should be BEGGING YOU to work things out. It will be an adjustment but your daughter will be fine. DEMAND 50% custody and don't settle for less. 

Stop using your kid as an excuse to allow yourself to be emotionally abused. You're not a martyr and your cheating gf ain't worth the suffering. Instead set an example for her, as someone to look up to, because you STOOD UP for yourself and didn't take crap from ANYONE. 

Young kids think their daddies are heros. Be her hero not a victim.


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## jorgegene

although the term is bandied about quite a bit (understandably so), it is not 'love' to abandon the father of her child and risk
her family and 8 year relationship for an infatuation, no matter how powerful.

Nochoice called it first; she is immature. the 250 texts/day kind of says it all. that's utterly ridiculous. 

let's not mistake this for 'love' and say she is 'in love' with OM. she is infatuated, all tingly, and immature. 

at least that's what i gather from information without knowing more.

real love would be to to fight tenaciously for your family, your committed relationship and forsake others, even when you get some fly by night attention.

i have to agree with posters so far, especially since not married. leave her!


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## BetrayedDad

MJJEAN said:


> How is a single adult not free to do as they please? No one made any vows or signed any legally binding contracts regarding their relationship.


They made a verbal agreement to be exclusive when they started dating. I know it's an antiquated concept but your word should mean something and she was obligated to inform him this relationship contract was null and void BEFORE she spread her legs for another guy. Just because she files "single" on a tax return doesn't give her carte blanche to rip this guy's heart out.


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## SecondTime'Round

MJJEAN said:


> How is a single adult not free to do as they please? No one made any vows or signed any legally binding contracts regarding their relationship. Both OP and his "fiancee" are free to date and marry someone else if they wish.
> 
> Like it or not, there is a difference between gf and wife both legally and socially.
> 
> If we're going to argue morality, a lot of people would say that living together and having a child together without marriage is just as immoral as cheating.
> 
> Besides, it looks like the only one in a committed relationship is OP. His gf seems to have been still looking. Which is her right as a single adult female.
> 
> BTW, this is the same thing I told my brother when his baby momma and live in gf of 6 years slept with some guy from work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't consider someone in an 8 year relationship "single" just because that's what they'd check on a government form, and I believe only single people are "free to do as they please." 

Do you believe this woman has done nothing wrong? It's OK to have a secret relationship when you're already in a long term relationship with someone else? 

She's free to change her mind of course, but she's gone about it all wrong.


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## GusPolinski

MJJEAN said:


> How is a single adult not free to do as they please? No one made any vows or signed any legally binding contracts regarding their relationship. Both OP and his "fiancee" are free to date and marry someone else if they wish.
> 
> Like it or not, there is a difference between gf and wife both legally and socially.
> 
> If we're going to argue morality, a lot of people would say that living together and having a child together without marriage is just as immoral as cheating.
> 
> Besides, it looks like the only one in a committed relationship is OP. His gf seems to have been still looking. Which is her right as a single adult female.
> 
> BTW, this is the same thing I told my brother when his baby momma and live in gf of 6 years slept with some guy from work.


Come on. Married or not, she's cheating.

After all, most people commit to exclusivity well in advance of an actual marriage.


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## Stang197

GusPolinski said:


> MJJEAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> How is a single adult not free to do as they please? No one made any vows or signed any legally binding contracts regarding their relationship. Both OP and his "fiancee" are free to date and marry someone else if they wish.
> 
> Like it or not, there is a difference between gf and wife both legally and socially.
> 
> If we're going to argue morality, a lot of people would say that living together and having a child together without marriage is just as immoral as cheating.
> 
> Besides, it looks like the only one in a committed relationship is OP. His gf seems to have been still looking. Which is her right as a single adult female.
> 
> BTW, this is the same thing I told my brother when his baby momma and live in gf of 6 years slept with some guy from work.
> 
> 
> 
> Come on. Married or not, she's cheating.
> 
> After all, most people commit to exclusivity well in advance of an actual marriage.
Click to expand...

Absolutely people commit way before marriage. This sort of behavior is how she showed him that she is to immature to wear the title of wife. Make her your ex girlfriend. That is a worthy title for her.


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## scubagli

Ok well I told her I'm moving out if she doesn't stop, quit her job. Informed her boss and spoke to her aunt....


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## ButtPunch

scubagli said:


> Ok well I told her I'm moving out if she doesn't stop, quit her job. Informed her boss and spoke to her aunt....


Good for you. I know it's counterintuitive but it's the best way to save your marriage.

Cancel the appointment with the MC. It's a waste of money if your wife is knee deep in the fog. 

Moving out is not a good idea if you think there will be any sort of custody dispute. 

Time to go see a lawyer and start the 180. Are you familiar with the 180?


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## Marduk

Here's what you do.

You take all of your hurt and pain and betrayal and you take that to a therapist, buddy, priest, or here. What you do not do is bring it to your soon to be ex.

Because she is likely going to be your soon to be ex. She is not reconciling, she's in the 'affair fog':
Coping With Infidelity: Understanding The "Wayward Fog" - Marriage AdvocatesMarriage Advocates

Right now, she is not your spouse. Keep it that way. Right now, she is not the person you fell in love with. That person may come back, but most likely won't.

Your best option now is to shut your mouth to her and the OM, expose her affair far and wide, talk to a lawyer.

And go dark on this woman. Act like you don't care and can't wait to be done with her and move on.


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## Lila

scubagli said:


> Ok well I told her I'm moving out if she doesn't stop, quit her job. Informed her boss and spoke to her aunt....


What did her boss say to you?

If you are serious about moving out, then the first thing you should do is find a decent house/apartment that's capable of housing you and your kids. Then go see a lawyer about setting up a fair custody arrangement for your children. Being as you're not legally married, this is something that you need to take care of soon.


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## scubagli

I'm on my daughters birth certificate, I am legally her father. By nys law, yes I'll move out, I'm already looking for a house. Her boss said she was sorry to hear that....


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## Lila

Never claimed you were not her legal father but you still have to talk to a lawyer to get a fair custody agreement in place. 

The difference is that when legally married, custody agreements are handled as part of the legal divorce process. You don't have the legal divorce to contend with but I would highly recommend that you get a legal custody agreement in place, and soon.


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## parati

I agree with the comment that the woman is immature. 250 texts per day. That's new relationship excitement that burns off. Once she figures out that the guys poop doesn't really smell like roses, she'll break it off. These kinds of things happen. Once it's happened once she won't be excited to do it again, because she can see she had you loyally sticking with her, which is worth more than some affair.


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## JohnA

First rule of human existence: the past is the future unless we change it. 

What were the issues in her first marriage? Did on of them cheat? These are two separate questions. Where are her parents? Again the same questions. Where are your's again the sane questions. 

Second rule: know the history of the propel invovlved. You know his name, sox age, phone number, and where he lives. 50 bucks or less on a legal Internet site gets you a criminal, maritiale history, possibility employment history, past address, social media history. THIS IS NOT TO WIN HER BACK!!! She is in the FOG. At best she will say, he is different with me so that proves we belong together. This is preparing for a knife fight by leasing a tank.

Make no mistake about it, her actions will show she is replacing her daughter's father as well. 

Now is when you need to gave the heart of an assassin.


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## JohnA

PS is she a nurse?


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## scubagli

Front of house restaurant manager. Her mother died when she was eight, after her father broke up their family and married his secretary. My mother lives in our house/provides child care, not optimum...I haven't talked to my father since the day my daughter was born, he is sort of a disappointment, always has been my parents split up when i was two.


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## MJJEAN

scubagli said:


> You seem to be looking at this from a Christian stand point, I am not a Christian we were in a committed relationship, we made vows to each other she wears my great great grandmother's engagement ring and a wedding band. The law doesn't change that, an ceremony doesn't change that. At this point I'm attempting damage control, for my innocent daughters sake I'm trying to avoid moving out.


I'm not trying to be mean or argumentative. What I am trying to do is get you to see the reality of your situation so that you can decide what to do from here on out.

The ring exchange and private vows are sweet and romantic and a whole bunch of other nice words, but the reality is that the vows you made aren't socially or legally enforceable. They carry no weight. People, including those in the relationship, tend to take a marriage more seriously than "playing house".

Having spent my share of time in bars, clubs, and pubs, I've heard the same few old sayings repeated over and over. And those old sayings exist for a reason. And all those old sayings revolve around a single idea. "Taken ain't married!"

When D!ck Fitzwell sidled up to your GF with nefarious intentions and discovered she was unmarried, he figured she was fair game. And so did she. By not being married, for real, you and she left a door open. She chose to walk through it.

My parents were together, unmarried, for 18 years with 3 kids (me from a previous relationship and my two younger siblings) when my mom unexpectedly passed away at 43. Believe me, I have no problem with people who choose to live together without marrying.

When I was about 19, I was talking to my Mom and I mentioned I thought it was ridiculous she and Dad considered themselves engaged. Engaged, to most people, means the question has been asked and answered and that a wedding will be forthcoming. Clearly, it doesn't take 18 years to set a date and have a ceremony.
Mom admitted that although she did love Dad, a part of her just knew he wasn't "the One" and she didn't want to marry him, but stayed because of the kids. She didn't want to make that final, binding, commitment and she didn't want to leave and be alone, either.

Now, if two people want to live together without marrying because they don't believe in marriage, good for them. Have at it. But if two people are living together and have some vague plans to maybe marry someday, that says something. It says that either or both of the couple does believe in marriage, just not with their current partner.



BetrayedDad said:


> They made a verbal agreement to be exclusive when they started dating.





SecondTime'Round said:


> I don't consider someone in an 8 year relationship "single" just because that's what they'd check on a government form, and I believe only single people are "free to do as they please."
> 
> Do you believe this woman has done nothing wrong? It's OK to have a secret relationship when you're already in a long term relationship with someone else?
> 
> She's free to change her mind of course, but she's gone about it all wrong.





GusPolinski said:


> Come on. Married or not, she's cheating.
> 
> After all, most people commit to exclusivity well in advance of an actual marriage.





Stang197 said:


> Absolutely people commit way before marriage. This sort of behavior is how she showed him that she is to immature to wear the title of wife. Make her your ex girlfriend. That is a worthy title for her.


I disagree with none of you. Yes, she made an agreement. Yes, she broke that agreement and caused harm. Yes, she absolutely should have broken off her relationship with OP before she began seeing someone else.

That said, it doesn't change the reality that she never made any real, tangible, binding commitment and was free to be as big of an azz as she wanted to be.

Frankly, OP, I think you should thank your lucky stars or whatever deity you believe in that you didn't marry this woman. Being listed as father on the birth certificate does NOT guarantee full exercise of your parental rights. Without a court order spelling out visitation, she can refuse to let you see your child. Start a child support and visitation case so that your parental rights are protected and be grateful you don't have to file for a divorce, too. 

And don't forget you get your heirloom rings back before they end up in a pawn shop.


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## JohnA

Good points Mjjean.

Scubagli, did the stepmother reject the husbands children? Was your wife raised by the aunt you mentioned? Do you know what happened in the first marriage?

Also what issues and stresses are their in the home?


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## JohnA

My father's father sounds like your dad. I never met him. My dad was a great dad and husband. I never knew the details but at times I sensed he was on auto pilot - doing the opposite of his dad and trusting that was the right choice. I.E not doing what was done in the past. Living aware.


----------



## arbitrator

MJJEAN said:


> Neither couple is married. The reality that these are single adults free to do as they please.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*But you do have the presence of a child who is most deserving of good, worthy and decent parents! 

So what is of more importance here? The lovers jollies, or the welfare and decent raising of that precious child?

File for D on her lousy a$$ yesterday, and go for full custody of that previous child! You deserve far, far better out of life and so does your child!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rugs

Scubagli,


We here all understand how hard this is. We fire things off and it seems like some harsh advice but we are just trying to get your attention. You are getting good advice here so please stay and keep reading. 

You are also probably not sleeping well, eating, focusing........again, we here ALL understand. 

Please take care of you. If you have to take a day off to go see your doctor, do it. Tell him/her what's going on. Maybe some temporary sleep and/or anxiety meds...?? Relaxation if just for a breath of fresh air or a walk around the block. Get some high fat and protein snacks to eat if you have no appetite. Bananas, yogurt, ..... Stay healthy. Try not to indulge in alcohol or things that will impair your judgement. 

You can do this. We know you love your girlfriend and it's a HUGE slap in the face. 

Please try to understand that no one here is trying to make things harder for you. We are just trying to keep your focus and attention in the right direction and mindset. Don't be hard on yourself but do start to prepare yourself for the road ahead. Sweeping this under the rug or drawing lines in the sand only to keep drawing them just doesn't work. EVER. 

You have come to a safe place with people who have been through unthinkable misery with marriages, mortgages, kids, step-kids, illness, parents, drugs, and every other life problems you can imagine. 

Please hang in there.


----------



## scubagli

JohnA said:


> Good points Mjjean.
> 
> Scubagli, did the stepmother reject the husbands children? Was your wife raised by the aunt you mentioned? Do you know what happened in the first marriage?
> 
> Also what issues and stresses are their in the home?


John my wife is the youngest, her sisters and brother were over 18, yes her stepmother told her point blank she could never love her. The previous marriage was two young kids with their heads in their asses, I don't really know the details, except that inherited a large amount of his debt. I have friends that know him, they all say he's a jackass.


----------



## BetrayedDad

MJJEAN said:


> That said, it doesn't change the reality that she never made any real, tangible, binding commitment and was free to be as big of an azz as she wanted to be.


I strongly disagree and you are obviously entitled to your opinion.

Do you REALLY think marriage deters a cheater from being a cheater? I don't at all. In my opinion, tangible "vows" or not, a ho's gonna be a ho. And if my committed girlfriend said to me, "Ain't no ring on this finger, I'm free to be as big of an azz as I want to be." I'd dump her in a heartbeat. Who the hell wants a woman like that who thinks so little about staying faithful to her boyfriend? If she can't even manage that then she'll never be wife material, period.

I will agree however better OP find out now she's a cheat BEFORE he ended up marrying her. She was divorced prior. I'll bet TAM a box of donuts infidelity played a role there too.


----------



## MJJEAN

arbitrator said:


> *But you do have the presence of a child who is most deserving of good, worthy and decent parents!
> 
> So what is of more importance here? The lovers jollies, or the welfare and decent raising of that precious child?
> 
> File for D on her lousy a$$ yesterday, and go for full custody of that previous child! You deserve far, far better out of life and so does your child!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The court doesn't care about infidelity when handling custody cases. Cheating doesn't, legally, make one an unfit parent. As long as the mother isn't overtly provably neglecting the child and her AP isn't someone with a criminal record that would make him a danger to the child, who the parents are dating and under what circumstances aren't the court's concern.

Realistically, OP will likely be getting shared custody.



BetrayedDad said:


> I strongly disagree and you are obviously entitled to your opinion.
> 
> Do you REALLY think marriage deters a cheater from being a cheater? I don't at all. In my opinion, tangible "vows" or not, a ho's gonna be a ho. And if my committed girlfriend said to me, "Ain't no ring on this finger, I'm free to be as big of an azz as I want to be." I'd dump her in a heartbeat. Who the hell wants a woman like that who thinks so little about staying faithful to her boyfriend? If she can't even manage that then she'll never be wife material, period.
> 
> I will agree however better OP find out now she's a cheat BEFORE he ended up marrying her. She was divorced prior. I'll bet TAM a box of donuts infidelity played a role there too.


Be realistic. People tend to think of long term relationships without marriage "dead end relationships". They aren't "going anywhere". 

Add things like "If he liked it, he woulda put a ring on it!" and "If he valued or respected you, he'd have married you by now." it becomes easier to see why someone who is in a LTR would say "Hey! Ain't no rings on my finger, so I'm going out!"

If your woman said to you "I'm free to do as I please because we aren't married!" and you said "Fine! GTFO!" that's just PA relationship negotiations. 

She's saying "I'm not staying faithful to a man who won't commit to me by marrying me/who I do not want to marry because I am looking for a permanent mate." and you'd be saying "I find those conditions unacceptable and am ending our relationship." Which is kind of the point. Either make the real commitment or end it and move on.

For some people, the lack of an actual marriage ceremony is the reason they start dating other people. They get to a point where they're detached and done waiting.


----------



## arbitrator

arbitrator said:


> *But you do have the presence of a child who is most deserving of good, worthy and decent parents!
> 
> So what is of more importance here? The lovers jollies, or the welfare and decent raising of that precious child?
> 
> File for D on her lousy a$$ yesterday, and go for full custody of that previous child! You deserve far, far better out of life and so does your child!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





MJJEAN said:


> The court doesn't care about infidelity when handling custody cases. Cheating doesn't, legally, make one an unfit parent. As long as the mother isn't overtly provably neglecting the child and her AP isn't someone with a criminal record that would make him a danger to the child, who the parents are dating and under what circumstances aren't the court's concern.


Realistically, OP will likely be getting shared custody.

*Perhaps in most jurisdictions! 

But there are still a few "old-line" judges who will not hesitate at throwing the book at one of the litigants for playing footsie with someone other than their spouse, more especially when there is a dependent child living in the domicile!

So do you really want to take a chance on getting one of those "archaic" hardliners for your presiding judge? 

If you do, you'll find that it ain't exactly a real pleasant experience! More especially for a confirmed cheater!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NoChoice

scubagli said:


> She has been divorced once already, I'm not sure why we never stood in front of a judge, I have always intended to but we never did it....*I think she feels marriage may have ruined her previous relationship.*


Then what excuse will she use if this one does not work out? Let me expose her immaturity. She has married one man, started a "committed" relationship (brought a child into it) with another man but says "I have never felt in my whole life what I feel for _____", who, by the way, has impregnated another woman and is now trying to break up two families before that child is even born. I will tell you the only feeling she should have for such a man...fear. Carry on with the 180, she may not be salvageable with her mindset.


----------



## the guy

Get her to start thinking twice about what she will lose. Once she starts to second guess her choices you might have a chance to save this.

I'm guessing she thinks you aren't going any were....You have to be willing to give up this relationship to save it.

At the end of the day, until the other guy is out of the picture you don't have a chance. So make it clear you WILL NOT SHARE HER!!!!!!!

Please just let her go!

It might save your family.


For what it's worth...chicks dig confident guys...so please stop begging for this relationship while your women sleeps with another guy. She really needs to see a guy that won't take her pull shyt. In the end she has to respect that, no matter what happens.


----------



## Lila

arbitrator said:


> Realistically, OP will likely be getting shared custody.
> 
> *Perhaps in most jurisdictions! But there are a still a few "old-line" judges who will still throw the book at one of the litigants for playing footsie with someone other than their spouse!
> 
> Want to take a chance on getting one of those for your presiding judge? If you do, you'll find that it ain't exactly a real pleasant experience!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The OP and his partner are not married.


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## scubagli

I fairly certain I'm moving out, she isn't stopping.


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## 6301

Did she say why she got divorced? Maybe you should ask her ex husband what the reason was. Maybe she did the same thing to him. 

I know your worried about your kid but kids can survive a broken home. Both of mine did and their no worse for wear. You can make it a easy or a hard on the kids. Depends on you. 

You have someone here whose burning the candle at both ends and can't make her mind up so you need to make it up for her. The longer this goes on the worse it will get. She pretty much gave you the middle finger salute and when that happens you have to take action. But if she decides to stay with you, just remember she has to be the one to prove herself. I got a feeling that she wont but don't let her sweep it under the rug or you'll pay for it.


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## Adelais

Have you taken back your grandmother's engagement ring yet? It has been in your family, you should keep it that way. She can get an engagement ring from her new beau.


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## Stang197

scubagli said:


> I fairly certain I'm moving out, she isn't stopping.


Just move out bro. Not sure about your mindset but I have experienced two cheaters. As soon as I wasn't an option their minds changed quick. At that point you probably won't want her back.


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## Stang197

Sorry dude. I know that this hurts. Take care of yourself bro.


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## BetrayedDad

scubagli said:


> I fairly certain I'm moving out, she isn't stopping.


I'd move out regardless. Stick a fork in it, man.

She's checkout, remorseless and will never fight for you.


----------



## Thundarr

scubagli said:


> My "wife" we are not legally married, have a 3 year old daughter. We have lived together for 8 years, had our ups and downs, but I never expected this. She's been having an EA for the past 5 months, with a younger guy at work, it turned physical about 3 months ago. I found out 7 days ago. I've known something was wrong for awhile, I had attempted to find out what was bothering her a few times but got blown off each time. Now that I know I want to work things out, but she is indecisive, confused, and in love with him. They carry on by text, averaging 250 text back and forth a day. 23k messages since july. She is refusing to break off the affair, I don't know what to do, I love her, I love my daughter, she admits I'm not a bad guy, says she still has feelings for me, but has never felt like she feels for the om. He has a 1 month old daughter with his gf that he still lives with, the are broken up, she found out sooner then I did. I have told her I want to work things out but as long as she is in the relationship with the om there is no us.


She thinks she can choose you or him and she thinks you'll be lucky if she chooses you. Make her fight to keep you if you want her to think you're worth fighting for. It counter intuitive but you still want her to want you then turn her loose. Tell her to go and leave you alone.


----------



## the guy

I could not have stayed with my old lady with out remorse. It's clear she choose the other guy.

BTW...been here a while.... prepare your self for the delayed reaction when the OM doesn't want the commitment and tells your old lady to work on her marriage.

It's very common for betrayed spouse to become the wayward spouses plan B......

The exact time you confronted her was life changing and in that exact time she choose the other guy......neither one of you will never ever change this fact and get over that moment in time. In time this is were the wayward is faced with the up most regret.

Again a life changing choice that she can never take back....years from now when out of nowhere she tracks you down, wants to know if you want her back, and then asks you for money....LOL


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## ConanHub

She is delusional thinking she is special and has choices.

Wake her up by illuminating the fact that she has eliminated you as an option.

She is incredibly stupid. Call it affair fog or whatever but her stupidity is evident nonetheless.

Cut her off. Do the 180.

Let her see life with you as a co-parent only.

Even if she wakes up you should not take her back before taking a serious look at this.

Is she a desirable woman with good traits?

From what I've read she is none too bright.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

MJJEAN said:


> Be realistic. People tend to think of long term relationships without marriage "dead end relationships". They aren't "going anywhere".
> 
> Add things like "If he liked it, he woulda put a ring on it!" and "If he valued or respected you, he'd have married you by now." it becomes easier to see why someone who is in a LTR would say "Hey! Ain't no rings on my finger, so I'm going out!"


You mean go cheat rather than accepting accountability for being the dumbass who stuck around for XX years? No one held her hostage. She is as much responsible for putting up with him not closing the deal as he is for not committing. The man and the woman each own 50% of the relationship problems. She would own the cheating 100%.



MJJEAN said:


> If your woman said to you "I'm free to do as I please because we aren't married!" and you said "Fine! GTFO!" that's just PA relationship negotiations.


Fair enough... I could also say to my gf "drop twenty pounds or I'm going to troll bars for sex!" Anything is up for "negotiation". 



MJJEAN said:


> She's saying "I'm not staying faithful to a man who won't commit to me by marrying me/who I do not want to marry because I am looking for a permanent mate." and you'd be saying "I find those conditions unacceptable and am ending our relationship." Which is kind of the point. Either make the real commitment or end it and move on.


You're basically saying their are situations when its okay to cheat (ie unmarried couples where one person won't commit.) Sorry, I reject that premise. There is no valid situation you could present to me (eg lack of commitment, physical or emotional abuse, lack of sex, etc. etc.) that would make is "understandable." That's making excuses to justify despicable behavior. That's what cheaters excel at.



MJJEAN said:


> For some people, the lack of an actual marriage ceremony is the reason they start dating other people. They get to a point where they're detached and done waiting.


Unethical people maybe. The decent ones know when to move on because they are tired of putting up with a loser. I've known many guys who would not commit to their women and every one of them wasn't really "that" into them but the women REFUSED to leave even when they were told repeatedly he was a loser. So who is to blame? Answer: both.


----------



## scubagli

Actually I just asked her why we didn't get married and she said she was nervous because her first marriage when to **** 2 months after they said their vows. After living together for 4 years. It wasn't me that didn't commit. I am moving out, don't know how I'll afford it or how we with explain it to our daughter, or how we will handle child care. But I have to do what is right for me.


----------



## MJJEAN

BetrayedDad said:


> You mean go cheat rather than accepting accountability for being the dumbass who stuck around for XX years? No one held her hostage. She is as much responsible for putting up with him not closing the deal as he is for not committing. The man and the woman each own 50% of the relationship problems. She would own the cheating 100%.
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough... I could also say to my gf "drop twenty pounds or I'm going to troll bars for sex!" Anything is up for "negotiation".
> 
> 
> 
> You're basically saying their are situations when its okay to cheat (ie unmarried couples where one person won't commit.) Sorry, I reject that premise. There is no valid situation you could present to me (eg lack of commitment, physical or emotional abuse, lack of sex, etc. etc.) that would make is "understandable." That's making excuses to justify despicable behavior. That's what cheaters excel at.
> 
> 
> 
> Unethical people maybe. The decent ones know when to move on because they are tired of putting up with a loser. I've known many guys who would not commit to their women and every one of them wasn't really "that" into them but the women REFUSED to leave even when they were told repeatedly he was a loser. So who is to blame? Answer: both.


I wasn't excusing, I was explaining. I've watched many 3-10 year "engagements" with live-ins end because one or the other wasn't strong enough to be alone and just walk, but felt the relationship was "dead end", detached, and moved on. Didn't say it was right, but that's what happens. Maybe those relationships would have worked if there was a wedding. Maybe not. Who knows?

No,I'm not saying that it's ok to commit infidelity for unmarried couples. I'm saying that I don't think of it as infidelity. The couple may have made some promises, but unless there is actually a real live tangible binding legal and social commitment, it doesn't mean anything more than pillow talk or future faking.

We're adults here. Adults either get married or they don't. If they don't, they can't claim they are owed anything. If you don't want to make the real commitment and get married, but reap the benefits of living like you're married, don't be surprised if your partner enjoys the benefits of having you around while living like they're single. Because they are! 



Lila said:


> The OP and his partner are not married.


You beat me to it. A judge can't be ticked at someone for adultery when there was no adultery.

The courts will handle this just like they do any case where there are two single parents who share a child and want to exercise their parental rights.


----------



## the guy

Married or not......talk to a lawyer before you move out.

Your old lady shows you abandoned your kid....well it won't go well!

Your next move can cost you in child support....so please see a family lawyer that will protect your rights as a father and your wallet!


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## MJJEAN

scubagli said:


> Actually I just asked her why we didn't get married and she said she was nervous because her first marriage when to **** 2 months after they said their vows. After living together for 4 years. It wasn't me that didn't commit. I am moving out, don't know how I'll afford it or how we with explain it to our daughter, or how we will handle child care. But I have to do what is right for me.


Somewhere, there are stats that claim people who live together before marriage have a higher divorce rate. I have a theory that the reason for the higher divorce rate is that a lot of couples who have lived together and are in troubled relationships think marrying will fix their problems. When it doesn't, they claim everything went to **** within XX amount of time and end up divorced.

If their marriage went bad so fast, I'm going with my theory that it was already in the toilet and they married hoping it would magically fix their issues.

Get a roommate if you need to.

Discuss child care with your ex and figure out how to juggle schedules so that someone if available to babysit and one of you parents is available to pick the baby up from the sitter when not working. A lot of single dads use child care gaps to spend extra time with their kids during the work week.

How to explain it to your daughter is a bit tougher. I don't remember if you gave her age, but it makes a difference. Plenty of people here have had to explain to their children that they are separating from the other parent. How they go about it is greatly dependent on the age of the child(ren).

I tend to favor age appropriate honesty with a dash of something to look forward to. For example, when my oldest was 6 and my middle was 1, I left their father. The baby didn't notice. I told my 6 year old that mommy and daddy just can't live together anymore because we are very unhappy together. That we both loved her and that would never change. And then I started talking about how exciting moving would be and how she was going to make new friends and have a new room etc.


----------



## Stang197

scubagli said:


> Actually I just asked her why we didn't get married and she said she was nervous because her first marriage when to **** 2 months after they said their vows. After living together for 4 years. It wasn't me that didn't commit. I am moving out, don't know how I'll afford it or how we with explain it to our daughter, or how we will handle child care. But I have to do what is right for me.


So sorry dude. Life sucks sometimes. If you still want to reconcile this is your best bet. I think after you remove yourself from this you probably won't want her back. Just a guess. You should probably stop talking reconciliation with her. Make her think that you are done no matter what she wants to do.


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## JohnA

Hi scubagli,

As you have no doubt noticed some posters are to enmeshed in their own pain it clouds their judgement on the facts of your situation. It does not actually mean what they urge you to do is wrong. Up to you to pick and choose. Keep posting!!

Watch out for assumption of facts on your part. Only a lawyer can tell you how the court will rule. I see two assumptions on your part, one is wrong, the other possibly wrong. 

Why does your daughter stay at that house. You and your mom provide most of the childcare.

Unless she owned the house debt free, or you never paid any of the mogage you may be a part owner. Don't say no, know the law.

What state do you live in?


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## scubagli

I live in ny.


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## scubagli

She is showing remorse, she knows what she's done is wrong, she still will not tell me to get lost. I told her last night our relationship is over as far as I'm concerned. As long as she has contact with him I'm gone. No counseling, no support...I believe this is going to take sometime. I've sent a number of texts to the om with no response, it his guy is a total *****. I would confront him face to face, but I don't trust myself to be anywhere near him. Too much to lose, my daughter needs me more then I need to get my ounce of flesh. I've had offer of places to stay, none ideal, but ok for a few days. Let the apartment search begin.


----------



## happy as a clam

MJJEAN said:


> Be realistic. People tend to think of long term relationships without marriage "dead end relationships". They aren't "going anywhere".


Huh? I totally don't get this comment. I am in a LTR (with no intention of ever remarrying) and I certainly don't consider it a "dead end relationship." Nor does my SO or anyone else who knows us.

Cheating is cheating, whether married or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

Hi,

Child Custody and Visitation Rights in New York

Did a quick search. Ny does not recognize common law.

Remember I warned agaist assumptions. This liknk seems to suggest you get no child custody. Except it does refer to see... For further details. Facts of case mean everthimg. Keep digging, the answer changes.

By the way what is the age difference between the two of you?


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## scubagli

6 years. I've looked up custody myself, we have joint custody but I am filing in family court to protect myself. I don't belive she would try to take away my kid but.....I didn't think she'd **** another guy....


----------



## BetrayedDad

MJJEAN said:


> I'm not saying that it's ok to commit infidelity for unmarried couples. I'm saying that I don't think of it as infidelity.


If you don't consider it infidelity why would you not be okay with it? Clearly, you acknowledge that it is wrong (you say its not "ok") so what's your objection? Is it the label or that fact that after an arbitrary period of time you believe you are no longer obligated to inform your partner you are no longer exclusive with them?

This is obviously where we fundamentally disagree so I guess nothing more needs to be said then. Basically, you don't believe an unmarried couple can commit infidelity because they didn't sign a marriage license at the courthouse. 

Perhaps it's a question I will ask my next girlfriend upfront because if that was her position, it would deal breaker for me. That's something I would like to know early on so I'm not wasting my time with someone who has a vastly different definition of exclusive than I do.


----------



## BetrayedDad

scubagli said:


> She is showing remorse, she knows what she's done is wrong, she still will not tell me to get lost.


She's still interacting with the guy... Does that sound like REMORSE to you? Ignore her bullsh!t crocodile tears. Those tears aren't for you. Look at her acts. SHE'S STILL CHEATING ON YOU AT THIS VERY MOMENT. She will never tell you to "go away" because she wants to keep using you for her benefit. Nothing more.



scubagli said:


> I told her last night our relationship is over as far as I'm concerned. As long as she has contact with him I'm gone. No counseling, no support...I believe this is going to take sometime.


It will and it will svck. Just keep telling yourself, "I DESERVE BETTER" and believe it. Another woman would be falling over themselves for a loyal guy like you. You may share a daughter but you don't have to share your life with her. Give it to someone far more worthy. 



scubagli said:


> I've sent a number of texts to the om with no response, it his guy is a total *****. I would confront him face to face, but I don't trust myself to be anywhere near him. Too much to lose, my daughter needs me more then I need to get my ounce of flesh.


Stop wasting your time with this POSOM. Every time you call him it's an ego boost. He laughs at you cause he stole your woman away. If he wants to dig threw the trash you put on the curb let him have at it. Because she's garbage, so focus on YOU.


----------



## scubagli

I swear she's using the 180 on me.


----------



## ButtPunch

scubagli said:


> I swear she's using the 180 on me.


For longer than you realize.


----------



## scubagli

ButtPunch said:


> For longer than you realize.


At least a year.


----------



## ButtPunch

scubagli said:


> At least a year.


You need to do the same thing and emotionally detach from your ww. She has a head start on you.


----------



## BetrayedDad

scubagli said:


> I swear she's using the 180 on me.


"Using" implies she's trying to detach from you. She's already detached, she just never told you.

She's "done" the 180 on you. Like you said, she's had at least a year to severe all emotional detachment.

Time you for you play catch up. You came here to fix the problem. Well, SHE IS the problem and you need to get the hell away from her.


----------



## Stang197

scubagli said:


> I swear she's using the 180 on me.


Time for you to detach quick. Do your best to get in control of the separation. She has all the power right now. You won't have any power trying to reconcile with her. Don't ask for her opinion in anything regarding splitting up. Take her power by throwing her out of your life. Might shock her back to reality, might not. Either way you have to do it. If she is high on her affair dope you can use to your advantage to try and get the best possible deal for you.


----------



## MJJEAN

scubagli said:


> 6 years. I've looked up custody myself, we have joint custody but I am filing in family court to protect myself. I don't belive she would try to take away my kid but.....I didn't think she'd **** another guy....


When my ex and I separated and were waiting for the money to file for divorce, I was sure he'd never take the kids. Mostly because they were 6 and 1, so they were still pretty needy as far as feed, water,bathing, and supervision go. Which, btw, were things he was never involved with. Like, I literally do not know if the man even knew how to change and bathe a child.

Imagine my shock when I let him take the girls for a weekend and he refused to bring them back on Sunday. Of course I called the police and was told that because we both had parental rights and there was no court order in place, we could each take the kids whenever and wherever we wanted and there was nothing the other parent could do. I could take the police to pick the kids up, but he could turn right around and take the police to my house to take them right back.

Thankfully, he called me to come get them that Tuesday night because he was living with his parents, they were taking care of the kids on his visitation, and his parents were back to work after the weekend leaving him alone with the kids, which he couldn't handle.

That incident taught me a valuable lesson. When it comes to child custody and support, get it in writing as soon as possible and make sure the details are spelled out. You want specific dates and times for pick up and drop off so that, if it ever comes down to it, the police have something concrete to enforce.


----------



## MJJEAN

happy as a clam said:


> Huh? I totally don't get this comment. I am in a LTR (with no intention of ever remarrying) and I certainly don't consider it a "dead end relationship." Nor does my SO or anyone else who knows us.
> 
> Cheating is cheating, whether married or not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And that's great! If you and your SO are happy, then I'm happy for you. As I said in an earlier post, my parents never married and were together 18 years. I got nuttin against people who choose not to marry.

What I was trying to convey is that a lot of people DO consider relationships not heading toward marriage to be "dead end". And, knowing the relationship is "dead end", they detach and start looking for a partner who will offer that commitment.



BetrayedDad said:


> If you don't consider it infidelity why would you not be okay with it? Clearly, you acknowledge that it is wrong (you say its not "ok") so what's your objection? Is it the label or that fact that after an arbitrary period of time you believe you are no longer obligated to inform your partner you are no longer exclusive with them?
> 
> This is obviously where we fundamentally disagree so I guess nothing more needs to be said then. Basically, you don't believe an unmarried couple can commit infidelity because they didn't sign a marriage license at the courthouse.
> 
> Perhaps it's a question I will ask my next girlfriend upfront because if that was her position, it would deal breaker for me. That's something I would like to know early on so I'm not wasting my time with someone who has a vastly different definition of exclusive than I do.


Like I said earlier, I think it's a bit ridiculous to expect the benefits of marriage (sex, companionship, permanence, and exclusivity) without being willing to take on the burdens of marriage (legally binding obligation, publicly spoken and acknowledged vows). 

People can say whatever they want to, but words are just air without something concrete to back them up.

Is it wrong to give your word and go back on it? Yes. Is it wrong to lie? Yes. Is it wrong for a single adult person to exercise their right to date who they dang well please? No. 

OP's GF should have come to him, told him she was unsatisfied, and ended the relationship. Which is a lot easier said than done when you have a baby, money is tight, and your STBXBF's mom is your daycare provider. 

I suspect she's holding OPs branch until she has a firm grasp on OM's branch or comes up with a Plan C. If she doesn't come up with Plan C, she'll stick with Plan B, which is the OP.


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## BetrayedDad

They are not "single"... They are in a relationship. Marriage is not the only valid form of commitment.

And OP is definitely plan B. Aside from debating relationship status, that much is obvious to everyone.


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## scubagli

MJJEAN said:


> And that's great! If you and your SO are happy, then I'm happy for you. As I said in an earlier post, my parents never married and were together 18 years. I got nuttin against people who choose not to marry.
> 
> What I was trying to convey is that a lot of people DO consider relationships not heading toward marriage to be "dead end". And, knowing the relationship is "dead end", they detach and start looking for a partner who will offer that commitment.
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said earlier, I think it's a bit ridiculous to expect the benefits of marriage (sex, companionship, permanence, and exclusivity) without being willing to take on the burdens of marriage (legally binding obligation, publicly spoken and acknowledged vows).
> 
> People can say whatever they want to, but words are just air without something concrete to back them up.
> 
> Is it wrong to give your word and go back on it? Yes. Is it wrong to lie? Yes. Is it wrong for a single adult person to exercise their right to date who they dang well please? No.
> 
> OP's GF should have come to him, told him she was unsatisfied, and ended the relationship. Which is a lot easier said than done when you have a baby, money is tight, and your STBXBF's mom is your daycare provider.
> 
> I suspect she's holding OPs branch until she has a firm grasp on OM's branch or comes up with a Plan C. If she doesn't come up with Plan C, she'll stick with Plan B, which is the OP.


This is not the case here, please stay on topic. Tonight I'm leaving, my mom is going to stay with my daughter while my ww is at work. I'm moving out this weekend.
I'll have my daughter all weekend as per usual, and drop her at school mon morning. I have no idea how this is going to work.


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## TheTruthHurts

Sorry you're here - it clearly sucks. I'm an older guy so picture me popping my dentures out while I give you irrelevant advice (ok not THAT old)...

As much as this sucks and tares at your heart, you will be amazed how quickly time passes as you watch the little one grow up. And you'll realize pretty soon that ending this relationship and showing her a healthy one - yes I believe in a few years some woman will swoop you up - will give her a much healthier foundation to build her life on. So this is about her seeing a dad who respects himself and a decent woman roll model.

This woman strung you along in a non-married state for BS reasons and wants to be a cake eater. She is a child with needs that probably can't be met but she doesn't realize that yet.

Be calm and find the guy you were when you first met. Good luck.


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## Stang197

TheTruthHurts said:


> Sorry you're here - it clearly sucks. I'm an older guy so picture me popping my dentures out while I give you irrelevant advice (ok not THAT old)...
> 
> As much as this sucks and tares at your heart, you will be amazed how quickly time passes as you watch the little one grow up. And you'll realize pretty soon that ending this relationship and showing her a healthy one - yes I believe in a few years some woman will swoop you up - will give her a much healthier foundation to build her life on. So this is about her seeing a dad who respects himself and a decent woman roll model.
> 
> This woman strung you along in a non-married state for BS reasons and wants to be a cake eater. She is a child with needs that probably can't be met but she doesn't realize that yet.
> 
> Be calm and find the guy you were when you first met. Good luck.


For sure another woman will swoop you up. The only way that doesn't happen is if you drown your sorrows in a bottle and isolate yourself.


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## MJJEAN

scubagli said:


> This is not the case here, please stay on topic. Tonight I'm leaving, my mom is going to stay with my daughter while my ww is at work. I'm moving out this weekend.
> I'll have my daughter all weekend as per usual, and drop her at school mon morning. I have no idea how this is going to work.


How is that not the case? Your GF was willing to stay with you not because she wanted to, she clearly wants to be with the OM, but because she doesn't want to let go of you until she has another man willing to be her relationship partner. 

She's been involved in another, tentative, relationship for quite some time, yet she never asked you to leave. I'd lay $5 she'd have kicked you out so fast your head would swim if OM was willing to make their relationship real. I'd lay another $5 she'd be his wife within months if he asked her, given how she claims she feels about him.

Too bad he already has a "fiancee" and a baby. Bet that's a huge crimp in her plans.

The funny thing about it is that they're both in long term relationships where the marriage question has been asked, answered, and yet there hasn't been a wedding. And they're both seeing other people behind their partners backs. This would lead me to believe that they both, in fact, do want to be married. Just not to the people they were engaged to. If either truly had no plan or desire to marry, there would be no engagement on either side.


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## scubagli

MJJEAN said:


> How is that not the case? Your GF was willing to stay with you not because she wanted to, she clearly wants to be with the OM, but because she doesn't want to let go of you until she has another man willing to be her relationship partner.
> 
> She's been involved in another, tentative, relationship for quite some time, yet she never asked you to leave. I'd lay $5 she'd have kicked you out so fast your head would swim if OM was willing to make their relationship real. I'd lay another $5 she'd be his wife within months if he asked her, given how she claims she feels about him.
> 
> Too bad he already has a "fiancee" and a baby. Bet that's a huge crimp in her plans.
> 
> The funny thing about it is that they're both in long term relationships where the marriage question has been asked, answered, and yet there hasn't been a wedding. And they're both seeing other people behind their partners backs. This would lead me to believe that they both, in fact, do want to be married. Just not to the people they were engaged to. If either truly had no plan or desire to marry, there would be no engagement on either side.


You stated that my lack of commitment, led to the affair. That's what I'm pointing out. Stop making assumptions. It makes you look silly.


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## Stang197

scubagli said:


> MJJEAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> How is that not the case? Your GF was willing to stay with you not because she wanted to, she clearly wants to be with the OM, but because she doesn't want to let go of you until she has another man willing to be her relationship partner.
> 
> She's been involved in another, tentative, relationship for quite some time, yet she never asked you to leave. I'd lay $5 she'd have kicked you out so fast your head would swim if OM was willing to make their relationship real. I'd lay another $5 she'd be his wife within months if he asked her, given how she claims she feels about him.
> 
> Too bad he already has a "fiancee" and a baby. Bet that's a huge crimp in her plans.
> 
> The funny thing about it is that they're both in long term relationships where the marriage question has been asked, answered, and yet there hasn't been a wedding. And they're both seeing other people behind their partners backs. This would lead me to believe that they both, in fact, do want to be married. Just not to the people they were engaged to. If either truly had no plan or desire to marry, there would be no engagement on either side.
> 
> 
> 
> You stated that my lack of commitment, led to the affair. That's what I'm pointing out. Stop making assumptions. It makes you look silly.
Click to expand...

Maybe she uses this to justify the cheating but I would be willing to bet if you were married it would be something else she would use for justification . She is flawed.... Period. Fact is that you are lucky that you didn't marry her.


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## happyman64

scubagli said:


> Tonight I'm leaving, my mom is going to stay with my daughter while my ww is at work. I'm moving out this weekend.
> I'll have my daughter all weekend as per usual, and drop her at school mon morning. I have no idea how this is going to work.


You will make it work because you have no choice. And yes it sucks.

So when does your "Mom" leave with you?

What does your Mom think of this sh!t biscuit your GF is serving you?


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## MJJEAN

scubagli said:


> You stated that my lack of commitment, led to the affair. That's what I'm pointing out. Stop making assumptions. It makes you look silly.


I was replying to another posters question when I said SOME people would leave due to lack of real commitment. The other poster asked about the logic behind that thinking and I explained it. 

Clearly, you were ready and able to make a real commitment and probably would have married her. My guess is that she wouldn't have married you. I think she agreed to marry you...someday...maybe...so that she could keep you on reserve just in case she couldn't find what she's looking for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DanielleBennett

If I were you I would just walk away and just file for joint custody of your child and let her carry on with this affair. If she won't break off the affair then she doesn't deserve to have you and walking away is better than trying to seek counseling for a problem that can't be fixed if she won't put in her effort. However, counseling for yourself won't be a bad idea, it can help you get through the situation.


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## scubagli

Well first night alone, I have my little girl. We are staying with a friend for the weekend. I have to say this is very hard, letting her have space. The 180 is very hard for me, I feel like I'm doing what she wants by moving out and leaving her alone. I'm having a hard time figuring out when and how I should contact her. Our daughter just started preschool, ive been calling after she gets out of school to see how it went. Don't know if I should keep doing so or not....I want to talk to my daughter and stay in contact, but don't want to talk to the wife....


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## happyman64

You are doing exactly what she wants.

And have very little choice in the matter.

The key is to use the time wisely.

Focus on you. Get in shape, find your own place, focus on a job and bettering yourself.

Become a mystery to your Ex. Do not share what is happening in your life unless asked.

Get out and meet new people. 

Because the less attention your show your Ex the more she will want to know.

You need to concentrate on you and your kid. That is all that matters.

Your cheating Ex is just someone that you used to know.

HM


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## scubagli

I finally talked to the om girlfriend, she kicked him out of their home after he spent the night at my house last sat. She is filing for child support. I'm hoping this will push the situation to a head. My wife went to dinner with him Tuesday and brought my daughter along. I don't know how to handle this, my daughter told me she was scared of him. I'm trying to stick to the 180, it's very hard. Any input from people that have delt with a similar situation would be helpful.


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## scubagli

After more reading, I believe she's a waw, and this is an exit affair, I'm at a loss.


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## turnera

scubagli said:


> I finally talked to the om girlfriend, she kicked him out of their home after he spent the night at my house last sat. She is filing for child support. I'm hoping this will push the situation to a head. My wife went to dinner with him Tuesday and brought my daughter along. I don't know how to handle this, my daughter told me she was scared of him. I'm trying to stick to the 180, it's very hard. Any input from people that have dealt with a similar situation would be helpful.


You did a lackluster exposure, if any. You moved out so as not to inconvenience her. You basically gave her 90% custody with no fuss. And you haven't even gone to a lawyer to see how to stop her. Not only that, you allowed her to take your child to be with the OM. Why should she change?

You don't need the 180. You need the angry betrayed husband who isn't going to put up with this any more. Move back into your house. Stop letting her make that her love nest. If she wants to see OM, she can do it on HER time, whatever bench they can find to climb under. MAKE THIS HARD ON HER. Call everyone who is important to her and ask them to let her know they do NOT approve and they will NOT just accept this new guy and he won't be welcome for Thanksgiving dinner (so to speak). The ONLY way she'll stop - if you even want her back - is to show her how COSTLY it is to cheat on you. 

And if you've decided you don't want her back, but you want at least 50/50 custody, MOVE BACK IN. Tell her to go screw her lover somewhere else but you aren't leaving. Make this hard on her.


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## scubagli

I'm back in the house, I never moved out I left for 5 days but I've decided that if she wants this she can move out. I'm not leaving my daughter, she needs stability and I provide that. I am her main care giver and have been since she was 8 months old. There's no one else to expose this to, and she doesn't care what anyone thinks.


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## turnera

Tell them anyway.


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## the guy

Why are you still listening/believing her?

There is some one in her life she holds with high regard and respect.....when you expose this to them you will find how much she does care!!!!!

She continues to manage you and you let her....why?


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## scubagli

Everyone at their job knows, her family knows, my family knows, my friends know...there's no one else to tell. She's never had girlfriends....his babies mom knows all her friends and family know....


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## turnera

Who told them, you or her?


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## BetrayedDad

scubagli said:


> I'm back in the house, I never moved out I left for 5 days but I've decided that if she wants this she can move out.


So you left the house for 5 days and she fvcks OM in your bed?

You need to lawyer up... NOW. Scorched earth my friend. 

She has ZERO respect for you and will take you to the cleaners.

This relationship is OVER. All you have left is to get the best deal possible.

Do not take her back under ANY circumstances. Her actions are unforgivable.


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## turnera

Oh, and take that bed out back and burn it.


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## MJJEAN

scubagli said:


> I finally talked to the om girlfriend, she kicked him out of their home after he spent the night at my house last sat. She is filing for child support. I'm hoping this will push the situation to a head. My wife went to dinner with him Tuesday and brought my daughter along. I don't know how to handle this, my daughter told me she was scared of him. I'm trying to stick to the 180, it's very hard. Any input from people that have delt with a similar situation would be helpful.





scubagli said:


> After more reading, I believe she's a waw, and this is an exit affair, I'm at a loss.


Og, for Pete's sakes! She cannot possibly be a WAW because she's not a wife!

How are you going to cope with your situation when you are refusing to even think and speak realistically?



scubagli said:


> Everyone at their job knows, her family knows, my family knows, my friends know...there's no one else to tell. She's never had girlfriends....his babies mom knows all her friends and family know....





turnera said:


> Who told them, you or her?


It doesn't matter who told them. OP's GF is not now nor has she ever been married to him. She says "I broke up with Scubagli and am now seeing Other Guy." What is anyone going to really say about that? She's single. She can date who she pleases.


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## TheTruthHurts

Wow mjjean that's so far off base I can't even respond...


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## scubagli

MJJEAN said:


> Og, for Pete's sakes! She cannot possibly be a WAW because she's not a wife!
> 
> How are you going to cope with your situation when you are refusing to even think and speak realistically?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter who told them. OP's GF is not now nor has she ever been married to him. She says "I broke up with Scubagli and am now seeing Other Guy." What is anyone going to really say about that? She's single. She can date who she pleases.


You are an idiot. Your observations are invalidate stop posting in my thread.


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## TheTruthHurts

OP go back and edit your last post / no need to get moderators on your a55 because of that response...


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## MJJEAN

scubagli said:


> You are an idiot. Your observations are invalidate stop posting in my thread.


My post becomes invalid the moment you produce a marriage certificate. 

It's like you keep referring to your ex GF as your wife so that you can somehow hold on to her. She's not your wife. That's just reality. She's moved on to a new relationship. Let go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MachoMcCoy

MJJEAN said:


> My post becomes invalid the moment you produce a marriage certificate.
> 
> It's like you keep referring to your ex GF as your wife so that you can somehow hold on to her. She's not your wife. That's just reality. She's moved on to a new relationship. Let go.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They were together 8 years. They have a child together. Nobody just "walks" or "moves on". There are laws, custody, money issues. Things have to be settled.

In this day and age of rampant unmarried couples having children, I think we're all pretty good at settling the legal issues here. And there are some. Important ones.


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## turnera

scubagli said:


> You stated that my lack of commitment, led to the affair. That's what I'm pointing out. Stop making assumptions. It makes you look silly.
> 
> You are an idiot. Your observations are invalidate stop posting in my thread.


Maybe it's your aggressive attitude that led to the affair.


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## Lostinthought61

who owns the house?


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## TheTruthHurts

OP you can ignore a poster that only incites you and others. It's one of the menu choices. No need to even respond to one person shouting their views on the legal system and why people who don't get a license shouldn't ever get a speeding ticket because, after all, they're not really "licensed drivers"


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## MJJEAN

MachoMcCoy said:


> They were together 8 years. They have a child together. Nobody just "walks" or "moves on". There are laws, custody, money issues. Things have to be settled.
> 
> In this day and age of rampant unmarried couples having children, I think we're all pretty good at settling the legal issues here. And there are some. Important ones.


The custody and visitation needs to be handled, yes, but I never said otherwise. In fact, I advised OP seek a lawyer and make sure his parental rights are protected.

As for the rest, they aren't married. They've never been married. Referring to her as his wife isn't healthy. It's not reality. He needs to deal with what is, not what could have been or what he wanted it to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtPunch

MJJEAN said:


> My post becomes invalid the moment you produce a marriage certificate.
> 
> It's like you keep referring to your ex GF as your wife so that you can somehow hold on to her. She's not your wife. That's just reality. She's moved on to a new relationship. Let go.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They could be common law married depending on the state they live in.


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## MJJEAN

ButtPunch said:


> They could be common law married depending on the state they live in.


Only a few states recognize Common Law marriage and most of those stopped recognizing new Common Law marriages between the 90's and early 00's. Even the states that do recognize Common Law marriages have certain conditions and just living together isn't enough to consider the couple Common Law married.

I know back when my state recognized Common Law marriages, the couple had to live together for 7+ years while presenting themselves the entire time to the society (professionally and socially) as a married couple including the female using the title Mrs. on letters and documents. I don't remember when my state stopped recognizing Common Law marriages, though. I just remember the conditions that needed to be met for Common Law because a few friends and family were anxious to avoid being married accidentally.

*minutes later*

So, I went and checked.

These states recognize Common Law marriages and each has specific stipulations as to what relationships are included:

Alabama
Colorado
District of Columbia
Iowa
Kansas
Montana
Rhode Island
South Carolina
Texas
Utah

And these states recognize Common Law on a limited basis providing the conditions were met before certain dates.

New Hampshire *(for inheritance purposes only)*

Ohio *(if created before 10/10/91)*

Oklahoma *(possibly only if created before 11/1/98. Oklahoma’s laws and court decisions may be in conflict about whether common law marriages formed in that state after 11/1/98 will be recognized.)*

Pennsylvania *(if created before 1/1/05)*

Georgia *(if created before 1/1/97)*

Idaho *(if created before 1/1/96)*


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## TheTruthHurts

Exactly. Which is why it's pointless to argue they're not in a committed relationship. Or were...


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## Chaparral

MJJEAN said:


> Only a few states recognize Common Law marriage and most of those stopped recognizing new Common Law marriages between the 90's and early 00's. Even the states that do recognize Common Law marriages have certain conditions and just living together isn't enough to consider the couple Common Law married.
> 
> I know back when my state recognized Common Law marriages, the couple had to live together for 7+ years while presenting themselves the entire time to the society (professionally and socially) as a married couple including the female using the title Mrs. on letters and documents. I don't remember when my state stopped recognizing Common Law marriages, though. I just remember the conditions that needed to be met for Common Law because a few friends and family were anxious to avoid being married accidentally.
> 
> *minutes later*
> 
> So, I went and checked.
> 
> These states recognize Common Law marriages and each has specific stipulations as to what relationships are included:
> 
> Alabama
> Colorado
> District of Columbia
> Iowa
> Kansas
> Montana
> Rhode Island
> South Carolina
> Texas
> Utah
> 
> And these states recognize Common Law on a limited basis providing the conditions were met before certain dates.
> 
> New Hampshire *(for inheritance purposes only)*
> 
> Ohio *(if created before 10/10/91)*
> 
> Oklahoma *(possibly only if created before 11/1/98. Oklahoma’s laws and court decisions may be in conflict about whether common law marriages formed in that state after 11/1/98 will be recognized.)*
> 
> Pennsylvania *(if created before 1/1/05)*
> 
> Georgia *(if created before 1/1/97)*
> 
> Idaho *(if created before 1/1/96)*


You were asked to leave his thread. Instead of being rude, try to be nice no matter how hard it is. You have no stake in this relationship. Op came here for support. He doesn't need you hijacking his thread.


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## MJJEAN

Chaparral said:


> You were asked to leave his thread. Instead of being rude, try to be nice no matter how hard it is. You have no stake in this relationship. Op came here for support. He doesn't need you hijacking his thread.


The post you quoted was in direct response to another poster mentioning it's possible the OP and his ex were married under Common Law. I merely left a list of states that recognize Common Law because it is a possibility if they live in one of those states and have met the other requirements.

Actually, I have been quite polite. And, if we're discussing rudeness, the OP has called me an idiot for pointing out that referring to his ex as his wife is not appropriate considering the fact that they were never married.

There are reasons I point out the reality to him and all of them stem from caring and compassion. Being in denial of reality isn't healthy for anyone.

First, it does make a difference legally and socially. 

Legally, being unmarried at the time of a split is handled one way while splitting after marriage is handled differently.

Socially, people treat marriage differently than other types of relationships. That's a reality he needs to face moving forward.

I've seen a lot of advice here that the OP expose the affair and even one post speaking about the OM and how he shouldn't be allowed at Thanksgiving dinner. This type of thinking works when dealing with a married couple who are separating. Most people don't want to participate in adultery and won't allow a married person to bring their lover around until after the divorce is final. 

However, this isn't the case. The OP and his ex never married. So, now that their relationship is over, what stands in her way of dating and bringing her OM to Turkey Day dinner or anywhere else she wants to bring him? Answer: nothing. 

The reality is an unmarried person who ended their relationship and is dating isn't going to be subject to the same censure as a married person who is doing the same thing. I was merely pointing out that reality.

And, frankly, the OP seems very resistant to the idea that his ex never married him for her own reasons, has moved on, and doesn't owe him anything anymore. She is obligated to try to be a civil co-parent, but that's it.

ETA: If the OP doesn't want me in his thread...tough. He posted on the internet for advice and opinions. If he doesn't like what he hears, perhaps he shouldn't post his dirty laundry on public forums.


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## MJJEAN

TheTruthHurts said:


> Exactly. Which is why it's pointless to argue they're not in a committed relationship. Or were...


I never said a committed relationship didn't exist. I said it wasn't a marriage and that she was not, and never has been, his wife. 

Definition of marriage: (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife* in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law* (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage

Definition of wife: a female partner in a marriage.


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## Chaparral

Op, did your girlfriend own the house before you met? Have you paid any living expenses since being there? Have you paid any house payments? Has she made any house payments since you have been living there?

You need to go to an attorney to see what all of the legal ramifications are. There may even be palimony issues here.

Start out at dads divorce.com.


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