# the situation



## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

found this site last week...have posted for years on a sports message board and thought maybe some other voices would give me some objective feedback on where they feel things are for me

i am 43
wife is 44

we have been married 13 years but together 5 years before that (including 3 living together)

2 kids (12, 5)
both of us work full time and historically make almost the same amount for most of the past 8-10 years

until 6 months ago i would have said we have a very good marriage overall...

we get along very well
we have similar values and interests and backgrounds
we were friends before we dated and knew each other very well before marriage

the only issue i really thought we had is that we don't spend much time together as a couple since having kids and i haven't been satisfied with the amount of sex in the relationship


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

we don't have any family nearby and have never had dependable consistent babysitters available

so for most of the past 12 years we haven't been out much as a couple (probably not more than 3-4 times/year?)

in our 12 years of being parents we've only spent 7 nights away from our kids

more troubling has been that we've never been able to get our kids to bed 'on time'

it has been the norm that my wife would be reading stories and rocking kids to sleep or sitting in the room with them until 1030 or 11 at night for most of the past 12 years

even when i read stories she gives in to the kid wanting her company while they fade to sleep

as you can imagine this has extended the 'working day' until bedtime

at most my wife and i would watch tv for 30 minutes and more often than not one of us would fall asleep (or many nights she would fall asleep in the rocking chair in the kids room)

this went on with my older child until he was 6 or so

then it seemed to get much better...at which point we had child number 2 (who will be 6 soon and hopefully my wife will cut the cord at this point with her too)


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

as for the sex

i always have to initiate if it is going to happen

my wife was not like this before we had kids...i can't say she frequently initiated but at least sometimes did

when i initiate she almost always is up for it but she never does anything ahead of my actions to make me think she really wants it...wants and desires me

we've talked about this several times in the past few years but nothing seems to change (other than after these conversations i tend to get more aggressive and ask more often for a little while before becoming discouraged again that i have to do all the work)


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## Mistyfied (Sep 27, 2013)

Young children, both working full-time. I'm sure that must impact your energy levels and time to connect in a way that might lead to sex significantly? Especially when you don't have much support to give you a break from the children. I know when I was working more hours extending the evening hours to compensate for time away from the children was a priority for me to connect with the children and then with my husband later when energy levels were lower. Do you think it could be a lifestyle issue more than a relational one?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Maybe they can have a sleep over at there friends house while you guy go out?

Its so important to have these date and romance. 

Sex is the clue IMHO for a healthy marriage, so even if you can't get away you guys need to hook up.Even if it in the laundry room for a quicky.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

As far as your wife not initiating, look up "responsive desire". 

And push more for finding decent babysitters so you can get out on dates. Ask parents of your kids friends. 

C


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

but despite this we get along great and have a lot to be thankful for

things seemed to take a turn about 6 months ago

my wife has gotten very into yoga over the past 2 years
it seems to be working wonders on her body (not that she was out of shape but it has really toned her) and it seems to give her a more peaceful/hopeful outlook on life

about a year ago she began talking with me about one of her yoga teachers who is also a professional ballet dancer

she would sometimes meet this girl for a drink or a cup of coffee after yoga or occassionally around happy hour but for the most part it just seemed that they were developing a good friendship

the yoga teacher then moved to another city halfway across the country (somewhat suddenly-made the decision to leave our town and within 2 months had found a job and was gone)

my wife goes to yoga most days and has 3-4 different regular teachers-this girl's class was far and away the best one 

so my wife was very anxious about losing her best yoga teacher/class (none of the others were anything but passable as far as getting her the kind of physical challenge that the favorite teacher was providing)

and around the time this yoga teacher planned to leave town my wife began displaying a lot of heightened emotions


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

so around early summer i start noticing my wife being sad, forlorn

even breaking down into tears

and not being willing to tell me what is wrong

my wife is not a typical female-
she is calm, rational, logical etc


i am the more emotionally thin skinned one in our relationship and more prone to emotional displays


all of this was very troubling...so much so that this started my mind wandering in all kinds of directions and ultimately made me start to feel very insecure about our relationship 

eventually my wife confided in me that she was so upset about her teacher and friend leaving town so suddenly

on the one hand the loss of amazing 3 times/week workouts that have got her feeling better physically (she has some fibromyalgia and thyroid issues though they are manageable) and feeling better mentally/emotionally

on the other hand she also connected with this girl as a close friend-
they apparently have a lot of similar ideas, philosophies, etc,-the yoga teacher is european and has travelled a lot (as has my wife-more on that later)

my wife felt like they really bonded as friends (much moreso than i initially believed, was told or eventually discovered)

but she did confide at least partially to me and i sort of understood it

over the last few years i have noticed that most of my deep friendships and close acquaintainces have fallen by the wayside adn i've noticed this absence in my life

of course my wife maintains 2-3 very good friends here in town and a broader and deeper series of connections with a few old friends as far back as middle and high school (and seems to be reconnecting with a lot more of them as time goes on-more on this later)


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

long story long:

her conversations with the yoga teacher and being impressed by yoga's devotion to her dance career as art inspires my wife to try to write again

note: my wife is a journalist professionally and has been very successful in her field but obviously anyone in that field must yearn to write creatively, successfully






so my wife spends many hours for weeks upon weeks writing a story

i was an english/business double major in college and have a keen interest in and appreciation for writing/literature

it was one of the early interests that my wife and i shared (we met in a bookstore)

i wanted to be included in this story, to read it and be asked for feedback but she seeemd to shut me out from it during the writing of it


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

i asked many times about reading the story but she always said 'maybe' in such a way that sure seemed like no

it began to feel less like something private and more like something secret (though i've only been able to state it so plainly very recently)

i found myself searching her laptop until i found and read the story

1. i know this is horrible behavior-until last year i never exhibited this behavior in my marriage and only once in a romantic relationship when i suspected and confirmed that i was being cheated on

2. nothing excuses me for having done this

3. see #2


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

the story was very well written

about two women who become good friends-one a ballet dancer...the other her yoga student

one woman's marriage is compared to an old house with a leaky roof (my wife and i have a 70 year old home with constant issues)

but the story is mostly about the two friends and how much they like/love each other without needing anything from the other

(one woman kills herself at the end)


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

more troubling than my concerns that my wife was describing our marriage as a house with a leaky roof was that she wouldn't share the story with me

and that she did share it with a business associate of hers
another man
(in another town)
but a man who she spoke to with admiration and respect of him being 'a great writer and a great reader'
and that she felt 'vulnerable' and 'trusted him' to read this and give honest feedback

this has been very very damaging to me and my ideas about our relationship

this man responds to the story-they exchange ideas about it
he gushes about her talent
she gushes about how she was right to share it with him and that he 'got it' etc etc

all very upsetting

more upsetting:
that he suggests to her that sometime when she is travelling for work that he would (fly to) meet her to spend some time 'putting their heads together for an afternoon and maybe an evening too' to discuss the story

he (half) jokingly (?) suggests that she 'pick a place: rome, italy, barcelona' and that they would get an apartment and 'do nothing but write for a month minimum'


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

i stewed on all of this for more than a month

i continued to ask to read the story and continued getting a 'maybe' response


finally she brought it to me one night-after a few minutes she said 'why is it taking you so long? you've already read it haven't you'


cold busted


so we really had it out

over weeks and weeks and weeks dealt with all of this

i don't believe my wife has ever cheated on me

i don't believe she is interested in doing so

but i am more uncomfortable with the idea of various business associates possibly being a little too chummy and certainly being more up for it themselves and suggesting it


my wife travels about 25-30 nights/year...nyc, la, overseas occassionally

so we have a situation where we are almost never out on dates together (night, social, drinking, looking our best, relating as a couple vs as parents) but she does get a lot of that kind of activity where i'm not around

i believe my wife is professional in her comportment

but i don't believe many of the men she encounters necessarily are


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

meanwhile-

during this period when i had snooped on her but we hadn't discussed it

i was reading article after article online

everywhere you look infidelity is everywhere

and more and more the stories are the women cheating on the men

and in our own social circle we know as many women that have cheated on men than vice versa

often involving reconnecting with old friends or business associates while away on business trips


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

on top of that

what else i found when snooping?

that my wife is obsessed with the yoga teacher/friend

searching for quotes on subjects like:
-why do you FALL IN LOVE with some people but not others?
-why do you have a deep soul connection with some people?
-i feel so all alone


etc 
etc
etc


and throughout the summer and now fall she has become a lot more active on facebook and constantly messaging/texting on her phone 

(which she used to always give me a hard time about-though i was always doing it for work as i'm expected to be available off hours)


and again-i am suddenly troubled about the potential difference between privacy and secrecy


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

i confronted her about the yoga teacher-

i do believe my wife that she does not have lesbian tendencies and only thinks of this person as a very close friend

BUT admits to 'a deep sense of love' for this person

and is more or less stalking her/chasing her around online (sends her memes/quotes, def. the one pursuing the friendship)


my wife had a business trip that was going to be near-ish where they yoga teacher moved and ended up inviting herself to go visit and stay with the yoga teacher (and yt's boyfriend) for a weekend before the business trip

i was a basket case the whole weekend and teh ensuing 3 days for the real business trip


i've become a jealous insecure paranoid mess


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

over the course of this year, making matters worse, i've had my worst year in my business that i've ever had

and i'm prone to moping/depression anyway

and my wife has had a banner year
most rewarding financially

got to go to hong kong (a trip that was not required-almost half of her travel the past 2 years has been optional-which is really starting to wear thin for me...esp. since she has never made any effort to plan a trip for us to take together-even for years when my parents, though 2 hours away, would have been willing and able to watch our kids)


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I think you'll need to post a summary when you're done, dude...

C


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

to some degree, we have become a little closer through all of this

we've talked some about our relationship and some of the things that both of us have been holding on to that are not helpful

i've made much more effort to initiate and have been rewarded for doing so

we have been going out on more frequent dates (though not an every week scheduled thing)


wife is not virtually obsessed with the ballet
3 of our 6 dates in the past 3 months have been ballet focused 

i know from continued snooping that she looks up anyone that her yoga teacher 'friends' on facebook


it is an ongoing thing


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

it just seems that she spends all of her effort and energy building and maintaining her friendships vs building and maintaining our marriage

i'm just the old pair of shoes lying around the house

and her real thoughts and feelings are being shared with others

with her biz associate who she shares her intellectual/artistic pursuits with

with her other friends that she shares philosophical discussions and i assume hopes and dreams






i def. feel that she has walked if not crossed the line of emotional intimacy with others instead of with me

i saw for the first time that she could be overcome by emotion

if the yoga teacher was a man and he had pursued her she would have slept with him (my opinion)

i can't seem to get past my troubled mind over all of this and she doesn't want to talk about it anymore


so i know its all a jumbled mess but there it is

any thoughts?


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## Mistyfied (Sep 27, 2013)

Thoughts - she's obviously lonely and longing for meaningful connection (which she seems to have found in the friendship with the yoga teacher). Given how she has described your marriage, I'd guess she is sad this connection is not something she is finding in your marriage. If you look to the needs she is finding met in those friendships (and the story might be a big clue there) then you may also find the key to what she needs from you in order to respond to you as you are wanting.


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## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

Thoughts? Sounds like an emotional affair to me. I got this from Oprah (yeah yeah):

-When most meetings and conversations are kept secret from your partner.
-When you say and do things with someone you never would do in front of your spouse.
-When you make a point to arrange private talk time with them.
-When you share stuff with them that you don't with your partner.

What you're describing sure seems to check the boxes.

I'm VERY sorry to hear of the troubles in your relationship.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Your wife is in an emotional affair and until she gets it she will continue to put her energy into this toxic friend instead of the marriage.

This toxic friend is an enemy of the marriage.

This marriage will continue to deteriorate if you wife doesn't see the damage it is causing. 

You can't control your old lady but you can control what you will tolerate and it will be up to your old lady to lose you or stop with this strong emotional attachment she has for this yoga chick.

My I suggest you inform your wife you want more out of a marriage and it might be time to part ways so you can find what you want and she can find what she wants.

Ya I know you love your chick but dude she is crossing some serious boundries, and she has no consequences and continues to take more steps in crossing your boundries.....you do have boundries...right?


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

another thing is her continued reconnecting with old friends on facebook

she has gone to 3 of the 4 high school reunions that have come up in the time we've been together

i haven't gone to any with her

in fact, for the last one, which i stated i'd like to go, she discouraged me from going

one of her old high school friends lives in the town with the yoga teacher and she just happened to connect with him when they were there

do i think something is going on there?

no-not really

but she didn't mention to me that she might be seeing this old friend there and i know from continued snooping that they are in contact pretty frequently now

(though she hooked him up with the yoga teacher and they have become friends now-

i actually think she has gotten to be better friends with her old friend in order to 'keep up' with her yoga teacher more...

otoh-

this dude is divorced and it seems like such a stereotypical facebook deal-old friends reunited etc etc)


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Dude this has nothing to do with you and your wife...this has everything to do with your wife and her yoga instructor...hell your just in the way.

My I suggest you wipe your wife foot prints off your back?

Until this yoga chick is out of the way you will have a hard time competing. So it might be time to step up and inform your old lady that she has the control to repair the marriage or let it stay on its present coures and in the near future it will tear the family unit apart, because you need a partner that is 100% on board with having a healthy relationship.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Great now you got the yoga chick covering for your old ladies affir with her HS friend.

Dude it time you go all JAmes Bond on her @ss and start investigating what really going on so you stop getting burned.

My I suggest a few tools;
Keylogger
GPS
Voice activated recorder
Pen cam


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Have you check CC and bank statement, phone logs, and text messages?

Let me guess ...she keep her lap top and cell pass word protected.

Has she started sleeping with her cell phone? You know its bad when they start to keep it under their pillow!


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

at the begianing of the thread I just though you guys were having a problem connecting...hell you wife has no problem connecting...its just no with you!


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## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

jojo717 said:


> do i think something is going on there?
> 
> no-not really


You have to put aside everything that you think you know about your marriage, your wife, and what you think she's capable of doing . Put it all aside. She has another life, a whole other existence, which she is actively excluding you from being a part of.

Right now, you're the babysitter, and all of her emotional needs are being met by others. You need to examine the possibility that this extends to her physical needs as well.


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

i thought about the emotional affair angle

but the yoga teacher actually is not anywhere near as invested in the friendship as my wife is

as for the old friend and my wife

they were never that close
they are half a continent away

i don't think they are messing around

i really don't think that is my wife's thing


but she is definitely putting her emotional energy into her friendships

and the fact is that my snooping, for whatever reason, has not made it better


we do not have each other's facebook passwords

and she does not keep her phone password protected but the few times i got into it she busted me and somehow knew so it doesn't seem smart to push things by continuing to snoop in the phone


what it comes down to is this:

she has a reason not to trust me right now
but she didn't trust me before i gave her a reason not to (wouldn't share the story)


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## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

-From everything I've ever read, the other person in the triangle of an emotional affair doesn't even have to be aware of it happening. The fact that your wife, on her own, is engaging in these behaviours is enough.

-No no no... YOU don't have a reason to trust HER. She is actively and continuously involved in deception. The only reason you've snooped is because she's locked you out of her existence. You know that, and don't allow her to blameshift you.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I think you fail to see that messing around doesn;t me handies and BJ in the back of a car.

Messing around means your wifes energy is somewere other then the marriage and it needs to be addressed before it goes to far.

What ever you did your old lady is resenting it still and finding an emotional need she has with someone other then her husband.

So dude you phucked around on her and now she is phucking around on you....great!


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## Mistyfied (Sep 27, 2013)

the guy said:


> Messing around means your wifes energy is somewere other then the marriage and it needs to be addressed before it goes to far.
> 
> What ever you did your old lady is resenting it still and finding an emotional need she has with someone other then her husband.
> 
> !


But what comes first? What if you really need some support through a trying situation and your husband has had first opportunity (and later ones) to be that person - and just isn't or can't be? Is it then an emotional affair to seek support from a friend during that time? I don't think so.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

jojo717 said:


> found this site last week...have posted for years on a sports message board and thought maybe some other voices would give me some objective feedback on where they feel things are for me
> 
> i am 43, wife is 44. we have been married 13 years but together 5 years before that (including 3 living together). 2 kids (12, 5) both of us work full time and historically make almost the same amount for most of the past 8-10 years. until 6 months ago i would have said we have a very good marriage overall...


According to psychologists who study this stuff, the danger period for wives getting the "7 year itch" comes in two waves: 4-7 years and 12-14 years. 



jojo717 said:


> we get along very well, we have similar values and interests and backgrounds. we were friends before we dated and knew each other very well before marriage. the only issue i really thought we had is that we don't spend much time together as a couple since having kids and i haven't been satisfied with the amount of sex in the relationship


You're not getting adequate sex because your wife is not sexually attracted to you. So, the obvious question: do other women find you sexually attractive?



jojo717 said:


> we don't have any family nearby and have never had dependable consistent babysitters available, so for most of the past 12 years we haven't been out much as a couple (probably not more than 3-4 times/year?). in our 12 years of being parents we've only spent 7 nights away from our kids


Do you also play russian roulette with semi-automatic pistols? You've worked hard to sabotage your marriage, so why are you surprised?



jojo717 said:


> more troubling has been that we've never been able to get our kids to bed 'on time' it has been the norm that my wife would be reading stories and rocking kids to sleep or sitting in the room with them until 1030 or 11 at night for most of the past 12 years even when i read stories she gives in to the kid wanting her company while they fade to sleep


She drags it out every night as a way for avoiding the potential for sex, because you are sexual girl repellant, at least to her. Why do you think that is?



jojo717 said:


> as you can imagine this has extended the 'working day' until bedtime at most my wife and i would watch tv for 30 minutes and more often than not one of us would fall asleep (or many nights she would fall asleep in the rocking chair in the kids room)
> this went on with my older child until he was 6 or so then it seemed to get much better...at which point we had child number 2 (who will be 6 soon and hopefully my wife will cut the cord at this point with her too)


Oh, yeah. Only three more years to go...



jojo717 said:


> as for the sex i always have to initiate if it is going to happen my wife was not like this before we had kids...i can't say she frequently initiated but at least sometimes did


What do you expect? that's the natural order of things. You do almost all the initiating, she just does a little. Do you know why this is? Women react to your sexual aggression and need from being turned on by her, then she gets turned on as her response. Fundamental stuff, man.



jojo717 said:


> when i initiate she almost always is up for it but she never does anything ahead of my actions to make me think she really wants it...wants and desires me


She doesn't desire you. Not anymore.



jojo717 said:


> we've talked about this several times in the past few years but nothing seems to change (other than after these conversations i tend to get more aggressive and ask more often for a little while before becoming discouraged again that i have to do all the work)


 All that whining and begging for sex makes her want to puke. You are coming across to her as what is called a Delta Male. These behaviors make women cringe. Your wife responds to male sexual passion, not wheedling for sex. You're your own antidote to sexual attraction. You are telling your wife's autonomic limbic sexual system that you are not a worthy mate, but a very low ranking male.

How often do other women approach you for sex?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

jojo717 said:


> but despite this we get along great and have a lot to be thankful for


A nice cozy roommate relationship with bits of random sexual activity thrown in. Nice.



jojo717 said:


> things seemed to take a turn about 6 months ago. my wife has gotten very into yoga over the past 2 years
> it seems to be working wonders on her body (not that she was out of shape but it has really toned her) and it seems to give her a more peaceful/hopeful outlook on life.


Yoga is great, but you've got to be very careful with it and pay close attention, because its original purpose is as foreplay for tantric sex. Lots of blood gets directed into the pelvic region by design. As one would expect from something that started out as a sex cult, there are lots of sex shenanigans swirling around yoga gurus.



jojo717 said:


> about a year ago she began talking with me about one of her yoga teachers who is also a professional ballet dancer. she would sometimes meet this girl for a drink or a cup of coffee after yoga or occassionally around happy hour but for the most part it just seemed that they were developing a good friendship


Wow. Didn't see that one coming!

As you may have noticed, women are not men. Unlike men, most women have sexual fluidity, meaning they can move between attraction to males or females or both, depending on what's going on in their lives. 



jojo717 said:


> the yoga teacher then moved to another city halfway across the country (somewhat suddenly-made the decision to leave our town and within 2 months had found a job and was gone)


What's your theory on this sudden disappearing act? What was the reason given?



jojo717 said:


> my wife goes to yoga most days and has 3-4 different regular teachers-this girl's class was far and away the best one. so my wife was very anxious about losing her best yoga teacher/class (none of the others were anything but passable as far as getting her the kind of physical challenge that the favorite teacher was providing) and around the time this yoga teacher planned to leave town my wife began displaying a lot of heightened emotions. so around early summer i start noticing my wife being sad, forlorn even breaking down into tears and not being willing to tell me what is wrong


Not exactly sure of your timeline here, but typically this is the behavior associated with a break up. Usually, involving sex if it was a guy she was this wrapped up in. I'd say probably so here, too. It's speculative, but informed.



jojo717 said:


> my wife is not a typical female-
> she is calm, rational, logical etc


That's odd. Everything you've posted here is very typical. Stereotypical in fact.



jojo717 said:


> I am the more emotionally thin skinned one in our relationship and more prone to emotional displays


Do you ever miss an opportunity to debase your sexual status in your wife's eye?



jojo717 said:


> all of this was very troubling...so much so that this started my mind wandering in all kinds of directions and ultimately made me start to feel very insecure about our relationship


... ...



jojo717 said:


> eventually my wife confided in me that she was so upset about her teacher and friend leaving town so suddenly
> on the one hand the loss of amazing 3 times/week workouts that have got her feeling better physically


Doubtless.



jojo717 said:


> (she has some fibromyalgia and thyroid issues though they are manageable) and feeling better mentally/emotionally


Get rid of the wheat and the fibromyalgia will usually abate.



jojo717 said:


> on the other hand she also connected with this girl as a close friend-they apparently have a lot of similar ideas, philosophies, etc,-the yoga teacher is european and has travelled a lot (as has my wife-more on that later). my wife felt like they really bonded as friends (much moreso than i initially believed, was told or eventually discovered) but she did confide at least partially to me and i sort of understood it.


Based on your wife's behavior, I'm sure she left a lot out.



jojo717 said:


> over the last few years i have noticed that most of my deep friendships and close acquaintainces have fallen by the wayside adn i've noticed this absence in my life.


You need to fix that. It's part of your problem.



jojo717 said:


> of course my wife maintains 2-3 very good friends here in town and a broader and deeper series of connections with a few old friends as far back as middle and high school (and seems to be reconnecting with a lot more of them as time goes on-more on this later)


As she moves farther and farther away from your orbit, due to your declining sexual gravitational pull, she will reconnect with more and more old friends. Not a good sign.



jojo717 said:


> long story long:her conversations with the yoga teacher and being impressed by yoga's devotion to her dance career as art inspires my wife to try to write again. note: my wife is a journalist professionally and has been very successful in her field but obviously anyone in that field must yearn to write creatively, successfully


She's decided she's stuck with a low rank male as a husband (her view) so she's trying to find fulfillment elsewhere. She's probably also thinking its a way to supplement her income when she pulls the plug on you. Especially now that self publishing is so viable.



jojo717 said:


> so my wife spends many hours for weeks upon weeks writing a story. i was an english/business double major in college and have a keen interest in and appreciation for writing/literature. it was one of the early interests that my wife and i shared (we met in a bookstore). i wanted to be included in this story, to read it and be asked for feedback but she seeemd to shut me out from it during the writing of it


The first thing you learn when you're a journalist or a novelist is that you need a good editor. 



jojo717 said:


> i asked many times about reading the story but she always said 'maybe' in such a way that sure seemed like no. it began to feel less like something private and more like something secret (though i've only been able to state it so plainly very recently) i found myself searching her laptop until i found and read the story
> 
> 1. i know this is horrible behavior-until last year i never exhibited this behavior in my marriage and only once in a romantic relationship when i suspected and confirmed that i was being cheated on
> 
> ...


Well, number 1 is a proactive step every male should make he has good reason to suggest trouble. Numbers 2 and 3 just are big indicators of why the male has trouble on his hands.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm going to cut to the chase:

Read those links in the posts above. They'll give you some insight into your relationship dynamic. Basically, you're driving your wife away.

Oh, I need to ask one question: How often do other women hit on you in a very obvious way?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Mistyfied said:


> But what comes first? What if you really need some support through a trying situation and your husband has had first opportunity (and later ones) to be that person - and just isn't or can't be? Is it then an emotional affair to seek support from a friend during that time? I don't think so.


@ Mistyfied, I was generalizing and I liked your post cuz it shows two perspectives...thanks for joining in.
I'm not going to wear the red cape here but just like you we both need to give OP something to think about , sort out, and figure out the best plan to fight for his marriage. 

@ Mach, as always you have alot to say, lets hope OP reads it and learns the best approach in getting his wife to get back on track with the marriage.


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

Mistyfied said:


> But what comes first? What if you really need some support through a trying situation and your husband has had first opportunity (and later ones) to be that person - and just isn't or can't be? Is it then an emotional affair to seek support from a friend during that time? I don't think so.



*years ago when my wife and i were first together she shared a story she'd written with me-i was immature and a little self absorbed and probably not as sensitive as i needed to be and didn't praise it

also-she told me she didn't share this story with me because i know the people that are models for some of the characters and she wanted someone who didn't know anyone involved to read it

i buy that partially

bottom line is that she has more respect and admiration for her business associate's literary opinions than mine

and possibly trusts him more with her vulnerabilities-at least regarding her writng

troubling for me*




Machiavelli said:


> According to psychologists who study this stuff, the danger period for wives getting the "7 year itch" comes in two waves: 4-7 years and 12-14 years.
> 
> 
> *did not know any of that about 7 yr itch for wives
> ...



*most of the time when i'm out in bars it is with a few friends after a martial arts workout...stopping by some mex joint or a sports bar for a quick beer often wearing my uniform and looking like i just worked out for 2 hours

the only time a woman has flagrantly approaced me with hook up on her mind was probably 15 years ago when i was out at happy hour 

again-i don't think i'm in many of those situations

i go to some after hours work events but no one has ever approached me

is this truly a sign that i'm not sexually attractive to women period? i don't think so...

*










Machiavelli said:


> A nice cozy roommate relationship with bits of random sexual activity thrown in. Nice.
> 
> *that is an accurate description of how it has felt*
> 
> ...





Machiavelli said:


> I'm going to cut to the chase:
> 
> Read those links in the posts above. They'll give you some insight into your relationship dynamic. Basically, you're driving your wife away.
> 
> Oh, I need to ask one question: How often do other women hit on you in a very obvious way?



*am i to believe that men are constantly being hit on by other women in obvious ways and that i'm 'missing out' or being ignored?

never

other women never hit on me in an obvious way*




the guy said:


> @ Mistyfied, I was generalizing and I liked your post cuz it shows two perspectives...thanks for joining in.
> I'm not going to wear the red cape here but just like you we both need to give OP something to think about , sort out, and figure out the best plan to fight for his marriage.
> 
> @ Mach, as always you have alot to say, lets hope OP reads it and learns the best approach in getting his wife to get back on track with the marriage.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jojo717 said:


> i wanted to be included in this story, to read it and be asked for feedback but she seemed to shut me out from it during the writing of it


Haven't finished your story yet, but this was almost certainly because she was writing about you, or at least about her unhappiness concerning your marriage, and she didn't want you to know what she was feeling. Either that or this is an affair story.

Back to reading!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jojo717 said:


> i thought about the emotional affair angle
> 
> but the yoga teacher actually is not anywhere near as invested in the friendship as my wife is


So? It doesn't matter what the yt thinks. What matters in YOUR marriage is what your wife thinks.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jojo717 said:


> most of the time when i'm out in bars it is with a few friends after a martial arts workout...stopping by some mex joint or a sports bar for a quick beer often wearing my uniform and looking like i just worked out for 2 hours


So, basically, SHE has enough time to spend 1 1/2 hours to 3 hours going to yoga and back EVERY DAY, and YOU have enough time to spend going to bars and restaurants and sports bars on a regular basis...living COMPLETELY single lives...yet you can't find time to take your wife out?

No wonder she's lonely.


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

turnera said:


> Haven't finished your story yet, but this was almost certainly because she was writing about you, or at least about her unhappiness concerning your marriage, and she didn't want you to know what she was feeling. Either that or this is an affair story.
> 
> Back to reading!



*very hard for me to believe that it was all intended as 'just fiction' and not about us

but it is possible for sure*




turnera said:


> So? It doesn't matter what the yt thinks. What matters in YOUR marriage is what your wife thinks.



*good point

and another poster's comments are dead on:

what i saw her going through when the teacher first moved was like watching my wife go through a break up...which set everything off for sure

she has said over and over and over though that she wants the same things i want and that the past few months have been hard but that we are coming out of it stronger, more together, more honest, etc

it is great to hear her say this and i want to beleive it but i am still struggling with privacy and secrecy and really believe that her desire for connection with the yoga teacher is still in between her desire for connection with me*




turnera said:


> So, basically, SHE has enough time to spend 1 1/2 hours to 3 hours going to yoga and back EVERY DAY, and YOU have enough time to spend going to bars and restaurants and sports bars on a regular basis...living COMPLETELY single lives...yet you can't find time to take your wife out?
> 
> No wonder she's lonely.


she goes to yoga at lunch-45 minute classes (though she does come home for the online class which runs longer)

she has much less flexibility than i do with my job but has enough to stretch her lunches and work from home in the late afternoon a few days/week (when my son is home with her if i don't pick him up)

there was definitely an issue with my going out esp. after our first child was born

i teach martial arts 2 nights/week and for a number of years would go out for a beer after 

and when my business was really hitting all cylinders for several years in the early 2000's through 3-4 years ago i went out 3-4 times/month for work functions after hours

yes

i have felt for a long time that we are living seperate lives except for our lives as parents

and we are taking some steps to work on it

but i am impatient for the change and some things are NOT going to change:

she is still going to be travelling for about a month a year and being in those situations that for years didn't bother me but now make me very uncomfortable

this has been an issue for us the past year or so as i've also realized how little travel and adventure i've had in my life but even moreso how little we've had together (we tend to take the same trips as a family-to visit my family or hers in other states but again we NEVER get away as a couple and of course until recently RARELY even went out as a couple)


i really believe she wants this marriage to last and to work

but we have both been in these patterns of behavior for a long long time

i don't trust her now
she didn't trust me with her inner feelings (as evidenced by the refusal to share story)
she trusted others with those feelings
she is in love with this yoga teacher even if she is insistent and even if true that it doesn't involve romantic or sexual love



i believe it is a problem for our relationship that she is in love with someone else

even if it doesn't involve romance or sex


i really believe her energy is put into that friendship vs our relationship


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jojo717 said:


> i don't trust her now
> she didn't trust me with her inner feelings (as evidenced by the refusal to share story)
> she trusted others with those feelings


Because they gave her good feelings about her feelings. You didn't. The man praised her writing; you ridiculed her. The woman listened to her pour her heart out about...well, everything. You chose to be gone two nights a week and put no emphasis on your wife. Perfectly logical that this ended up this way.

I'm not saying this to beat you up. Just to wake you up to see HOW BADLY you have to now rearrange your priorities and how much WORK you have ahead of you to convince her that YOU and this marriage is her best choice. And you only have so much time; once she is truly a WAW, she's gone.

You're impatient for HER to change? How about putting that impatience to work on fixing your side of the marriage? You'll be so busy learning what a good marriage should look like that you won't have time to sit around and stew about what _she _is giving _you_.


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

turnera said:


> Because they gave her good feelings about her feelings. You didn't. The man praised her writing; you ridiculed her. The woman listened to her pour her heart out about...well, everything. You chose to be gone two nights a week and put no emphasis on your wife. Perfectly logical that this ended up this way.
> 
> I'm not saying this to beat you up. Just to wake you up to see HOW BADLY you have to now rearrange your priorities and how much WORK you have ahead of you to convince her that YOU and this marriage is her best choice. And you only have so much time; once she is truly a WAW, she's gone.
> 
> You're impatient for HER to change? How about putting that impatience to work on fixing your side of the marriage? You'll be so busy learning what a good marriage should look like that you won't have time to sit around and stew about what _she _is giving _you_.



i didn't 'ridicule her'...i just wasn't as kind as i should have been that she shared it at all..and it was nearly 20 years ago

until we had our first child she was in the martial arts class with me 

i believe in hindsight that part of the reason i started going out more after class was that i 'knew' she would be asleep with a child when i got home

i continue to believe, despite my doubts and concerns, that she does want our marriage to survive and thrive

you are casting my actions in their harshest light and giving her a free pass for her side of things (as bad as the poster that responded that my wife is already cheating, etc)


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

what is a WAW?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jojo717 said:


> i didn't 'ridicule her'...i just wasn't as kind as i should have been that she shared it at all..and it was nearly 20 years ago
> 
> until we had our first child she was in the martial arts class with me
> 
> ...


Yep, I am. On purpose.

You can't change her. You can only change yourself. And you have a LOT of excuses for your behavior. Well, that was 20 years ago so it should no longer hurt. Right.

If you want something from your wife, you have to first SEE what your wife sees when she looks at you. For her to WANT you and give up these other people who give her what she wants, you have to BE the person who gives her what she wants.

And, yes, she IS cheating.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jojo717 said:


> what is a WAW?


A walkaway wife. There are tons of books on the subject. Women give to a marriage, because it's what they were raised to believe they were supposed to do. They work, then come home and work the OTHER job they have, while the husband goes out and teaches martial arts two nights a week and then goes out for beers with the guys, while she sits home and waits for him to come home and help with the house and kids. They wait for it to turn around, and wait, and wait, and get lonelier and lonelier. And then one of two things happens: either they just lose their love for you - click! like that - and they move out and divorce you, and it's too late for you to do anything about it. 

Either that, or they find another outlet for their loneliness, OTHER people who WILL listen to them, won't take them for granted, take their passions and interests and writing seriously, and suddenly, they are alive again. And, once again, they either check out but stay married and pursue these other people/venues who will meet their Emotional Needs, or they leave you to do it. And, once again, it's too late for you to do anything about it. 

It's usually almost ALWAYS the woman who does this. I could go into the why, but it's complicated. 

Basically, you have ONE chance to save your marriage. I urge you to stop being defensive and really listen to what all the people are telling you is going on. We've seen your marriage thousands of times, and we know what's going to happen if you don't hear it.


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

turnera said:


> Yep, I am. On purpose.
> 
> You can't change her. You can only change yourself. And you have a LOT of excuses for your behavior. Well, that was 20 years ago so it should no longer hurt. Right.
> 
> ...


you mean emotionally cheating (?)


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

turnera said:


> A walkaway wife. There are tons of books on the subject. Women give to a marriage, because it's what they were raised to believe they were supposed to do. They work, then come home and work the OTHER job they have, while the husband goes out and teaches martial arts two nights a week and then goes out for beers with the guys, while she sits home and waits for him to come home and help with the house and kids. They wait for it to turn around, and wait, and wait, and get lonelier and lonelier. And then one of two things happens: either they just lose their love for you - click! like that - and they move out and divorce you, and it's too late for you to do anything about it.
> 
> Either that, or they find another outlet for their loneliness, OTHER people who WILL listen to them, won't take them for granted, take their passions and interests and writing seriously, and suddenly, they are alive again. And, once again, they either check out but stay married and pursue these other people/venues who will meet their Emotional Needs, or they leave you to do it. And, once again, it's too late for you to do anything about it.
> 
> ...


to be clear again-

there has always been a balance in our relationship

between her travel for work (of which i have none) and dinners, movies, book clubs, etc, with girlfriends she has had every bit as much or more times out when i was sitting home with the kids

i am listening

i'm not sure it applies to my marriage or my wife

i do think we have grown apart
i do think she is investing emotional energy into outside relationships

things that used to be private are now feeling secret

i do believe she is committed to our marriage and not physically cheating and i'm not at all SURE she is emotionally cheating (though it is a gut feeling)


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jojo717 said:


> you mean emotionally cheating (?)


Yes. She gets her emotional needs met by (at least) two other people right now. She doesn't tell you about these people except when you dig. She doesn't share with you what they discuss. She doesn't want to give them up. She is obsessing about at least one of them. And you are not being involved.

She's cheating.

Of course, she will not recognize this. Most people in the world are completely oblivious to this concept of cheating. But if you break it down into the most basic form - that she is now investing the energy she vowed to give to her husband into at least two OTHER people, and that she is no longer investing in YOU, and that she is not bringing you along on this journey - she may be able to understand it for what it is.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jojo717 said:


> to be clear again-
> 
> there has always been a balance in our relationship
> 
> ...


And to be clear again, it doesn't matter that she was seeking other ways to occupy her time, what YOU call balance, because YOUR actions contributed to her pulling away from her and because you can only change YOUR side of this marriage.

Defend away. Makes no matter to me. But you will not get what you want.


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

turnera said:


> And to be clear again, it doesn't matter that she was seeking other ways to occupy her time, what YOU call balance, because YOUR actions contributed to her pulling away from her and because you can only change YOUR side of this marriage.
> 
> Defend away. Makes no matter to me. But you will not get what you want.


fair enough

throughout the past 6 months we have talked a lot more about these things

she even used the phrase 'pulled away' from our relationship as a result of some of my immature actions

BUT she consistently states that our family is the most important thing
and that she believes we are better, stronger, etc as a result of all of this

that said:

she is still focused on her yoga teacher, imo, and i believe continuing to source and develop more of her old connections as new ones


i still remain confident she is not the cheating kind

though i understand everyone ever cheated on probably says that




she isn't going to relinquish her friendship with the yoga teacher

she isn't even willing to admit that she is more focused on it than a normal friendship, particularly one with as little history as this one, should have


i don't believe forcing that issue can help in any way

she dated a manipulative spying psycho in college and until recently i've NEVER been like that (never thought i had reason to though)


given this information, that i don't feel i can ask her to give up her friends, that i don't have any legitimate reason to do so other than my own suspicions and discomfort, what can i do other than:

continue what i've been doing: it has been several years since i was going out all the time, etc

we have both made more effort to do more together (date night type stuff)

we are making effort to restore more regular physical intimacy



how do i get her to give me more emotional intimacy IF she is possibly sharing it with others instead?



what's more to that point-

the spiritual/psychological/transformative side of yoga beyond the excercise/physical work of it

she is not diving deeply into all of this but it is at least a part of her interest in it


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The first thing I'd recommend is for you BOTH to read His Needs Her Needs, together, hopefully every night at bedtime, until you get through it. Then do the Love Buster questionnaire that you get from its website. You each fill it out, and hers will tell you what specific things you do to LB, or harm, her (make her unhappy). Could be as big as buying a motorcycle without first asking her, could be as small as leaving your dirty Q-tips around the house for her to clean up (threw that one in there - it's what my H does), despite her telling you she hates it (i.e., lack of respect for her). Trust me, they add up. And when they do, no amount of making her happy will make up for them, make her care for you again. Think of it like a love bucket, and each LB pokes a hole in the bucket, causing her (or you) unhappiness. Once there are lots of holes, no amount of meeting her needs will fill up that bucket cos there's so much resentment that she can't LET you please her.

So do that first. Both of you. Spend a good 3 months working on changing those LB habits, erasing them so there's less discord (even if you didn't KNOW you had discord).

Once you've fixed that, both of you fill out the Emotional Needs questionnaire. Learn her top 5 ENs and vice versa. Both of you should be now focusing on ensuring that you are the main (hopefully only) person meeting that EN. Very important. And don't just do it the way YOU would want it done - really take the time to understand how SHE would like a particular EN met, and do THAT. 

We can help with examples of all that, if you need.

This path I describe is a good one for a couple in your stage of the 'troubles.' It's a psychological way of approaching your problem and that's why it's so successful - you can't argue with psychology; we're going to react the way people react, and HNHN's method works. There's a great chance that, if you do follow it, you'll end up with a marriage that's better than ever, and whatever she was getting from that woman and that man will pale in comparison to what she gets at home.


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## Mistyfied (Sep 27, 2013)

I think tunera has summed up what I would say as well. I also recommend His Needs, Her Needs.

I'm afraid that if I had a source of emotional support outside the marriage, I wouldn't let go of it either (talking about myself and my marriage here). I would, however, be happy for my husband to take over providing that emotional support. When he proves he is capable of that, then my focus may turn back more towards him. Until then, I need to know emotional support is available from somewhere.

I wouldn't read too much into not being able to read the story. I don't let my husband read my writings until they are completed because his opinion matters and I only want him to read the polished copy. If I let someone else read a work in progress, it's because their opinion is less important. 

The 'secrecy' in general may not be secrecy at all. There's lots I don't tell my husband, not because it's secret but because we don't have that connection at the moment that I have the opportunity or interest in sharing those things. Our conversations simply don't go to that level.

Again, as before, this may have no relevance to your situation, I'm speaking more about mine. It's for your consideration and an alternative view for you to reflect on.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

fwiw, I don't tell my husband anything. About anything. He has LB'd me so many times that I no longer trust him to put MY welfare ahead of his own. Any times I've shown vulnerability (as in your wife showing you her writing 20 years ago), he has made me feel stupid, so I quit being vulnerable.

Don't know if that's your wife's case, but it behooves you to at least consider it. Most of us have NO idea how many times and ways we hurt someone else's feelings.


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

turnera said:


> The first thing I'd recommend is for you BOTH to read His Needs Her Needs, together, hopefully every night at bedtime, until you get through it. Then do the Love Buster questionnaire that you get from its website. You each fill it out, and hers will tell you what specific things you do to LB, or harm, her (make her unhappy). Could be as big as buying a motorcycle without first asking her, could be as small as leaving your dirty Q-tips around the house for her to clean up (threw that one in there - it's what my H does), despite her telling you she hates it (i.e., lack of respect for her). Trust me, they add up. And when they do, no amount of making her happy will make up for them, make her care for you again. Think of it like a love bucket, and each LB pokes a hole in the bucket, causing her (or you) unhappiness. Once there are lots of holes, no amount of meeting her needs will fill up that bucket cos there's so much resentment that she can't LET you please her.
> 
> So do that first. Both of you. Spend a good 3 months working on changing those LB habits, erasing them so there's less discord (even if you didn't KNOW you had discord).
> 
> ...


i'm not sure she's open to anything like that

she thinks things are fine and that everything is in my head and we are fine as a couple (though she agrees we need to do more together as a couple)


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

Mistyfied said:


> I think tunera has summed up what I would say as well. I also recommend His Needs, Her Needs.
> 
> I'm afraid that if I had a source of emotional support outside the marriage, I wouldn't let go of it either (talking about myself and my marriage here). I would, however, be happy for my husband to take over providing that emotional support. When he proves he is capable of that, then my focus may turn back more towards him. Until then, I need to know emotional support is available from somewhere.
> 
> ...


appreciate your feedback

it is nice to hear the possibility that things aren't as bad as other posters and my worst fears may seem

as for the writing-
well-i read the emails to the other guy
there is NO doubt that she values his opinion and credibility more than mine in that area


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

turnera said:


> fwiw, I don't tell my husband anything. About anything. He has LB'd me so many times that I no longer trust him to put MY welfare ahead of his own. Any times I've shown vulnerability (as in your wife showing you her writing 20 years ago), he has made me feel stupid, so I quit being vulnerable.
> 
> Don't know if that's your wife's case, but it behooves you to at least consider it. Most of us have NO idea how many times and ways we hurt someone else's feelings.


she clearly took my comments about her long ago writing more to heart than i meant them

all i remember about it was that i made a crack about the working title and that it was only a couple of pages that weren't very fully formed yet

but i can understand that it hurt her feelings


harder for me to accept being shut out of the current story
impossible for me to accept that her writing about marriage was not mostly based on ours
impossible for me to believe she wanted the other guy's objectivity because he wouldn't recognize the characters as my wife and her yoga teacher


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

She shut you out of the current story because it was a love story. HER love story. And she knew that it was wrong.

She wanted the other guy's opinion because he flatters her. You ridicule her. 

You are not safe. And it's her love story.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You can still ask her to fill out the questionnaires if she won't read the book. Your biggest problem is you don't know who she is any more.


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## momma1816 (Dec 18, 2013)

jojo717 said:


> it just seems that she spends all of her effort and energy building and maintaining her friendships vs building and maintaining our marriage
> 
> i'm just the old pair of shoes lying around the house
> 
> ...


You mentioned earlier your wife has fibromyalgia/thyroid issues. Is she taking medication or has she checked her levels lately? I've had thyroid issues for nearly a decade now, and once in awhile, if your levels are "off", it can really impact you emotionally. It may be a good idea for her to go in for a medical exam.

Also, something's off with her relationship with her yoga teacher. I've taken yoga for several years now (different styles to include hard core Bikram), and while it's true that some folks get a bit cult-ish about yoga, the loss of one teacher should not impact her this greatly, even if they really bonded. What you're describing about her behavior sounds somewhat stalker-ish. 

I agree with other posters that you need to get good evidence she is (or is not) having an affair. This is your family we're talking about here. Install a key logger on her computer and phone to either put your mind at ease, or get confirmation and confront her with it. 

I would also suggest counseling, but if she's in the midst of an affair, you need to find that out first.


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## Mistyfied (Sep 27, 2013)

turnera said:


> Your biggest problem is you don't know who she is any more.


This.


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## Iver (Mar 8, 2013)

I'd re-iterate the advice above. 

Start with a medical exam to make sure their are no issues affecting her behavior.

Get her facebook password and her phone password if needed. 

Do some basic detective work - a VAR (voice activated recorder) for her car and check her texting (if there is a smoking gun this is most likely where you'll find it.)

The fact your wife seems to be behaving differently than before is cause for concern - I don't think what you've stated so far is pointing to an affair but it does seem she isn't valuing you as she should. My thought is she is starting to slowly check out of the marriage.

Asking her to read a book with you that will help you become a better partner to her doesn't seem like an unreasonable request on your part. If she does refuse to do this, well, that tells you how much your wife values your marriage.

If you haven't done so order Athol Kay's MMSL - it's a good start to getting a handle on relationship dynamics. 

Good Luck.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

I pretty much agree with all the Tunera says above about the problem, but I have a different cure.

You don't get hit on by women when going about your daily tasks, so that puts you in the 80% of guys who don't have a high gravitational pull on first sight. See, in a natural, pre-Greco-Roman non-monogamous society, 20% of the males produce 80% of the offspring, because all the women are actually only sexually aroused by the top 20% of males. This is called the Pareto Principle. You need to work to get as close to the high pulling 20% as you can. Cut the beer and get lean. What is your waist size on blue jeans? Jacket size? How much do you bench? 

It has been repeatedly demonstrated that most women are sexually interested by "golden ratio" physiques, six packs, and low body fat generally. The Golden Ratio explained. Also, note the visible inguinal ligaments below.









Women are also interested in the men that other women have or are interested in. If your wife doesn't think other women are attracted to you, she'll start wondering what she saw in you. Women are very social and group oriented, which is why in your dating years, they would all run off together into the can to have a conference and decide which guys were hot and which were not.

A quick read that pulls a fair amount of the science (and some speculation) on the subject of keeping a woman attracted over the long haul is Married Man Sex Life. I don't agree with all of it, only about 95%. It's a must.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Iver said:


> If you haven't done so order Athol Kay's MMSL - it's a good start to getting a handle of relationship dynamics.


This is the number one thing for you right now. All will be revealed. Do not let your wife know of the existence of this book.


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

turnera said:


> She shut you out of the current story because it was a love story. HER love story. And she knew that it was wrong.
> 
> She wanted the other guy's opinion because he flatters her. You ridicule her.
> 
> You are not safe. And it's her love story.



it is definitely a love story of sorts

part of the reason she shut me out is certainly the same reason she initially wouldn't give me any feedback about her initial sadness/break up displays when yoga teacher moved

certainly part of it was my less than flattering reaction to the original story she showed me nearly 2 decades before

other guy absolutely flatters her (though he is right-the story is damn good-far far better than the one i'd read years before)

you are certainly hitting the nail on the head as to how i initially interpreted it

(and my gut feeling)


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

turnera said:


> You can still ask her to fill out the questionnaires if she won't read the book. Your biggest problem is you don't know who she is any more.


she still seems to be mostly the same person

she really does

though there has been a slight shift toward being more focused on facebook, her old friends and of course the ever present obsession with yoga teacher

(again-i can't think of ANY reasonable reason that she would be looking up anyone who becomes friends with yt or yt's boyfriend...it is stalking obsessive behavior and indicates she is still hung up on her)


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

momma1816 said:


> You mentioned earlier your wife has fibromyalgia/thyroid issues. Is she taking medication or has she checked her levels lately? I've had thyroid issues for nearly a decade now, and once in awhile, if your levels are "off", it can really impact you emotionally. It may be a good idea for her to go in for a medical exam.
> 
> Also, something's off with her relationship with her yoga teacher. I've taken yoga for several years now (different styles to include hard core Bikram), and while it's true that some folks get a bit cult-ish about yoga, the loss of one teacher should not impact her this greatly, even if they really bonded. What you're describing about her behavior sounds somewhat stalker-ish.
> 
> ...


part of it is absolutely her fears that she would lose the quality of the yoga class

she had this girl's class twice a week and went to other classes the other 3 days

none of the others were worth a damn for my wife-slower styles-teachers who spend too much time talking instead of getting the class going-not the 'flow' style she prefers, etc

one of the girls that took over for YT is almost as good, however, and since that girl took over those classes my wife seems a little more herself (though still sort of stalking ,etc)



it is a visayana (?) class with a 'flow' where they go quickly from pose to pose-her friend is a ballerina-really can demonstrate and correct things well (i did yt's dvd this past weekend-i'm in decent shape and it kicked my ass)

and regardless of stalking behavior
if my wife's explanation is true in the most innocent of ways-

that she connected with this girl
that she feels like she has known her her whole life
that yt's commitment to dance and straight up and positive attitude are inspiring for her
etc

she felt like she had met a new best friend and that person then left just as they'd gotten close (let's assume platonically)


AND yt apparently told my wife that she tends to detach from the people she meets on her journey around the usa-that she doesn't have a ton of close friends and doesn't want to really have them in her life (hard to get close to kind of person)


as for the thyroid-she is on medication and takes it religiously and is not one to ignore her health

she is having blood work done this week to check her hormone levels too as she thinks a lot of what she's been going through is just hormones (she is 44 and could be early onset meno???)


as for having an actual physical affair-i continue to really doubt this

but i'm worried that she is more susceptible to doing so in the future (she is not a big drinker and she has lately started drinking a little more...not a lot...but 1-2 glasses of wine several nights/week around the house when historically she would have maybe 1 glass/week TOPS and even go many weeks w/out touching alcohol...

this concerns me because she is a lightweight and i'm sure she has a glass or 2 when she travels and this is where i'm most concerned about her meeting someone, finding connection and making a bad decision in the heat of the moment)


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

Iver said:


> I'd re-iterate the advice above.
> 
> Start with a medical exam to make sure their are no issues affecting her behavior.
> 
> ...


how on earth would i get her facebook password?

i'd sure love to have it!

she doesn't use a password for her phone but EVERY time i snooped her phone she could tell i'd been on it and she has reached the breaking point with my snooping (and on that score as long as she truly isn't having a real affair she is right)


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's why you use a VAR under the seat of her car and a keylogger on the computer.


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

turnera said:


> That's why you use a VAR under the seat of her car and a keylogger on the computer.


i might look into a keylogger

do they work?
can they be detected?

my wife is no techie but...

as for the VAR...she seems to do 'all' of her communicating by text and fb messaging...

and truly i don't see any space in her schedule for her to have an actual physical affair with anyone here in our town

really
truly
don't


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The VAR is to hear her talking on her phone. Which cheaters do when their spouse is not around.

And the point of keyloggers is that they can't be detected.

Try it and if you find nothing, focus on fixing you.


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> I pretty much agree with all the Tunera says above about the problem, but I have a different cure.
> 
> You don't get hit on by women when going about your daily tasks, so that puts you in the 80% of guys who don't have a high gravitational pull on first sight. See, in a natural, pre-Greco-Roman non-monogamous society, 20% of the males produce 80% of the offspring, because all the women are actually only sexually aroused by the top 20% of males. This is called the Pareto Principle. You need to work to get as close to the high pulling 20% as you can. Cut the beer and get lean. What is your waist size on blue jeans? Jacket size? How much do you bench?
> 
> ...


i don't lift weights regularly these days but have for extended periods in the past

i'm physically active typically 6 days/week

running, martial arts, tons of push ups and sit ups

not sure if i have the 'golden ratio' but i'm in decent shape

i am, however, short and despite believing i'm cute enough or handsome or whatever to some extent i expect that one reason women don't hit on me is that when women are looking for a quick hook up i assume they're looking for a big man and i'm sure i don't fit the bill

also-again-
although i'm sometimes in after hours work/social functions my industry is a small insular community in our small city in the heart of the bible belt
these are not hook up factories (though i'm sure it goes on some)

when i'm in a bar/sports bar environment it is on a weeknight and i've just come from the gym usually still in my workout clothes

not a pick up situation

i don't go to 'clubs' or meat market environments and i'm never out in bars on weekends


i don't know how physically attracted my wife is to me anymore but this is i believe more a case of her having a lower sex drive to begin with and only getting turned on, by her own admission and years of history, by me getting something started

if she was going to cheat on me i do not believe it would be about anything physical but rather because she developed a connection with someone else (certainly she would have to have physical attraction to them)


we have touched on this briefly-the idea that it is normal and natural to be attracted to other people


i'm more and more curious to ask her HOW attracted she has been to other people during our time together:
are we talking about simply noting that someone walking by you is good looking, has a good body, etc
or
are we talking about having a persistent and notable physical attraction/longing for/interest in another person-particularly someone we actually have some level of personal or professional relationship with

i'm very curiuos to know if men hit on her/make passes at her, etc esp. when she is at her various conferences,etc

any thoughts on asking these questions and if it is a good idea to do so or not?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I wouldn't. Unless you can say it like "So and so just hit on me. It kinda felt good. Do you feel that good when guys hit on you?"


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Understand that the only reason we're harping on the cheating is that, if she IS actively contacting another person, she has moved her feelings from you to him/her. So you have to actively fight the affair FIRST, get it out of the way, and THEN look at your marriage. If she's cheating and you bust your butt working on yourself, it won't matter - she's gone.

But if you check and find no activity on her part, THEN we'll want you to stop looking for cheating and redirect all your efforts to fixing yourself (not her), so that she once again starts seeing you as hot, attractive, desirable, whatever. Two different things. But you have to rule out the cheating first.


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

jojo717 said:


> and truly i don't see any space in her schedule for her to have an actual physical affair with anyone here in our town
> 
> really
> truly
> don't


Big, big mistake to assume there's no space in her schedule to have a physical affair. There's a long list of guys who thought the same thing and turned out to be wrong. It's astonishing how creative and resourceful cheaters can be......

turnera is correct about ruling out cheating first.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

jojo717 said:


> i don't lift weights regularly these days but have for extended periods in the past


Time to get back after it. It's the only thing that will arrest and reverse age-related sarcopenia. Maintaining, and if possible increasing, muscle mass is essential for the highest possible quality of life after 40.



jojo717 said:


> i'm physically active typically 6 days/week
> 
> running, martial arts, tons of push ups and sit ups


That's good, but it won't do anything for muscle mass.



jojo717 said:


> not sure if i have the 'golden ratio' but i'm in decent shape
> 
> i am, however, short and despite believing i'm cute enough or handsome or whatever to some extent i expect that one reason women don't hit on me is that when women are looking for a quick hook up i assume they're looking for a big man and i'm sure i don't fit the bill
> ...
> ...


If you never get any looks, mild physical contact, and flirting at work, in the store, in restaurants, that means you're invisible. You're completely off the female radar.




jojo717 said:


> i don't know how physically attracted my wife is to me anymore but this is i believe more a case of her having a lower sex drive to begin with and only getting turned on, by her own admission and years of history, by me getting something started
> 
> if she was going to cheat on me i do not believe it would be about anything physical but rather because she developed a connection with someone else (certainly she would have to have physical attraction to them)


There are a lot of things that can go into attraction, but eventually it does become physical or the relationship ends. WWs will deny it and claim they gave sex just to get some emotional attention. Of course, on the affair boards they say exactly the opposite; how exciting it is putting it over on the BH, how the sex is the best they've ever had, etc. Thanks to the Rationalization Hamster, WWs can convince themselves it was all your fault and it was all about getting their emotional needs met.



jojo717 said:


> we have touched on this briefly-the idea that it is normal and natural to be attracted to other people
> 
> 
> i'm more and more curious to ask her HOW attracted she has been to other people during our time together:
> ...


If she's a woman who looks more attractive than Frankstein's monster, she gets hit on. Remember, most men are attracted to most women, even though most women are somewhat repelled by most men.

If you bring it up, it's a demonstration of weakness. Seriously. It shouldn't be rationally, but we're talking limbic, subconscious female response here. Think about it.

If you think trips are a problem, and they can be (my wife used to travel extensively and she most definitely got hit on a lot) and you think she might be susceptible, do the PI thing.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

turnera said:


> I wouldn't. Unless you can say it like "So and so just hit on me. It kinda felt good. Do you feel that good when guys hit on you?"


I used to tell my wife every time a woman hit on me. I figured it would remove any underlying temptation to act on it. It was fairly frequent, and after a while it was making her angry and she wanted me to file sexual harassment suits. Then she started telling me about the guys hitting on her. I didn't like hearing it, so I quit telling her. I didn't tell her that stuff to up my sex rank, as I had no concept of such a thing at the time; I thought it was a marriage defense move. Anyway, the point was made on both our parts.


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## Voltaire2013 (Sep 22, 2013)

JJ,

How are things lately? I saw your post in a Zombie thread (pulled a Lazurus here Meself) and it appears to be status quo. 

Cheers,
V(13)




Machiavelli said:


> I used to tell my wife every time a woman hit on me. I figured it would remove any underlying temptation to act on it. It was fairly frequent, and after a while it was making her angry and she wanted me to file sexual harassment suits. Then she started telling me about the guys hitting on her. I didn't like hearing it, so I quit telling her. I didn't tell her that stuff to up my sex rank, as I had no concept of such a thing at the time; I thought it was a marriage defense move. Anyway, the point was made on both our parts.


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

situation is not much changed

I seem to be unable to let go of my anger and sadness about what i feel is the true state of our marriage (that we are parents together and not much more for most of the last 13 years and that somewhere deep down she just isn't that into me)

don't believe for a second that anything my wife has done is intentional to hurt me
i think it has all been a combination of opportunity (on business travel, personal travel w/out me) and her own overprotectiveness as a mom (not letting my folks watch the kids so we could getaway)

the story and all that continues to bother me a lot more than it should

again-I'm 99.99999999999999% sure there is no cheating

she has cut her business travel down to the minimum for now but I'm sure it can't last at that level

my work continues to be a struggle making all of this that much harder/more complicated

in other news, though, i might not be as invisible as i thought i was...

I've grown a beard and have been adding in some interval training workouts at my buddy's gym that includes some weightlifting but a TON of pull ups and push ups and other body weight strength building as well as increasing the amount of running and martial arts i do

I'm not sure I've dropped weight but I've made some incremental improvements to my body (definitely have slightly built up my arms and chest)

wife has noticed and commented and I've noticed more 'looks' from women...though you can never be totally sure if they're checking you out or wondering why you're checking them out? lol

still struggling with everything in my life

but I'm still here (alive) which is something as I've seriously had a lot of dark thoughts in the past two years


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

I re-read the thread and figured I could update on some other things

she had a business trip in the very city that the yoga teacher moved to about 6 months after she went to visit her the first time

yoga teacher told her she doesn't want to be friends with my wife (yoga teacher was very upset about the story-that it drew on things about her life that she considered private and wished she hadn't shared with my wife)

for many months after my wife continued to stalk this girl on facebook but I think that is (mostly) done with

I recently asked wife to defriend this girl on facebook but she would not do so

she is very set against anything she perceives as controlling behavior due to bad college boyfriend






she has found a number of very good yoga classes and to my despair has now befriended another yoga teacher who clearly also 'gets her' 

this is a married lady closer to my wife's age w/kids, etc...I don't think it is the same unhealthy obsession but she definitely is doing all she can to become a close friend to this woman
(which is fine except that again a little too much/too soon in my opinion and again why does she need to have so many close friends and always trying for more)



I apparently didn't have much of this other issue in the prior write up but here is the other big problem w/our marriage

we never have time together as a couple

and when I suggested many times having my folks watch the kids she has resisted

I took her on a b'day weekend getaway for her 40th and asked her to set up a trip for my 40th the following year-might be the only thing I've ever asked for as a gift in the time we've been together

we had a great time on her trip and both said we need this more for US

but when my turn came around she eventually said she wasn't comfortable asking my folks to watch the kids (even though she knows they'd be THRILLED and are very informal people)

so my trip that was supposed to happen in 2010 has still not happened

and I didn't push the issue or even bring it up (much) in 2010/2011

but since 2012 and esp. since 2013 and all of this has happened I have constantly brought it up and yet it has only been the last 6 months when she even made any effort to suggest doing omething


but at this point I'm passive aggressive about it-I don't believe it is something she WANTS to do and that she is only offering it now because it has become such an issue

who needs that?



my marriage is in a lot of trouble



struggling in my life in every way right now as business is still bad for me (and has been very badly affected by my inability to stop obsessing about all of this)


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

here's one for you

from last summer (well, actually the year before)

wife scheduled our son's bar mitzvah (we're jewish) on the weeknd of our 15th wedding anniversary

what a great time it would have been to do that trip I was supposed to have 5 years ago

I stood up at the Friday night family dinner and made a toast thanking everyone for coming to share this big moment with our family, how proud we are of our son, but also how much work my wife did to put this all togheter and oh by the way some of you might remember that 15 years ago this weekend we got married...happy anniversary to my wife



she did not even get me a card (I know...I sound like such a *****, lol...the roles are reversed around here right now)


I posted on facebook about our anniversary-a very heartfelt thing

she ignored it






I asked her about it and she said she was busy with the bar mitzvah



two weeks later she posted something on facebook about our anniversary but it was more focused on 'I was kind of busy that weekend' instead of about our relationsihop/marriage


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

as a strike back of sorts I did not acknowledge valentines' day

no card, no gift, no nothing

she has not mentioned it

(she made me a card of sorts w/out much on it and also bought me a six pack of unique beers from a mix and match deal...though she ran out that day to do it which is something she has given me **** about before)

we had been invited to her new yoga teacher/friend's house for dinner (w/the kids...get the families together and meet each other) but that got cancelled so we didn't even really have a V-day to speak of

life is pretty ****ty right now


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## Voltaire2013 (Sep 22, 2013)

You know you can change all this, you've been here long enough. The exercise is great for the body and how people perceive you physically but it's the mental aspect you need to work on. You need to lead. How do you think you can accomplish that? Let her have her friends, you are her lover, her husband, the leader of the marriage. It's not controlling. It's leading. I have some ideas but want to hear what you think you can do to change the dynamic. 

You need to change your mindset. Be an actor instead of an audience member. 

Cheers,
V(13)


jojo717 said:


> I re-read the thread and figured I could update on some other things
> 
> she had a business trip in the very city that the yoga teacher moved to about 6 months after she went to visit her the first time
> 
> ...


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## Voltaire2013 (Sep 22, 2013)

Goo! That's bad, very bad. When you two have a disagreement, who usually 'wins'?

Also, have you read No More Mister Nice Guy?

Cheers,
V(13)



jojo717 said:


> as a strike back of sorts I did not acknowledge valentines' day
> 
> no card, no gift, no nothing
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So...basically...you took none of the advice given here, nothing changed, and she's on to her next 'love' because she's just not that into you.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

shes cheating!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jojo,

There's the 'textbook' and then there's common sense. 

The yoga girl has been dodging your wofe for over a year now. She is NOT a threat to your marriage. And to top it off she feels your wife violated her confidence via the story. So this is a woman who is NO threat to your marriage. 

And your move is to suggest un-friending her. That makes you look weak. 

Now the busness associate who was hitting on your wife. He sounded like a genuine threat. Whole different deal. Assuming he's married - I would have called him and said: ANY more contact with my wife and I'm going to call YOUR wife and let her know you are attemtping to begin an affair. 

Oh - and Turnera is right on all fronts. The real issue is your connection with your wife is weak because you are not good at making her feel good / happy / safe. 

You seem very focused on the mechanics of your life with your wife. This whole: we need to spend more time together theme

But you don't seem to grasp that you need to create a situation, your wife WANTS to be in your company. You have to be fun and engaged and supportive. 





jojo717 said:


> I re-read the thread and figured I could update on some other things
> 
> she had a business trip in the very city that the yoga teacher moved to about 6 months after she went to visit her the first time
> 
> ...


----------



## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Jojo,
> 
> There's the 'textbook' and then there's common sense.
> 
> ...


you're mostly right

my wife is very open to re-engaging with me...but it doesn't seem to be on the level I want and she is still more focused on the expansion of her personal and professional/social networks more than anything else

I am having a very difficult time letting go of the fact that she resisted leaving the kids with my folks for so many years (9) and then even after I ACTED and did something about it (LEADING taking her on a b'day trip that she resisted due to my folks) and she AGREED to return the favor and make an effort for us to do more together she did NOTHING

in fact-she increased her business and personal travel by nearly 3 times the amount in the next few years

she has offered a trip for my bday next month and I feel it is too little too late

you can say it is dlv and weak and passive aggressive and you might be right

but I do feel that she has made it very hard for me to forgive her:

she has never really apologized for using me to have her fun (watching the kids while she travels so much for work and personal) and for never honoring the promise she made to me 

her attitude is very much 'can't change the past'/I'm sorry I didn't prioritize it more/let's move forward

and she is right in many ways

but that is a cop out 

I would like her to admit that everything else was more important to her 

I would like her to be more examining of what she was feeling towards me at that time and be honest that for SOME reason she was not interested in the engagement I requested


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## Iver (Mar 8, 2013)

I've learned (the hard way) that it's up to you to make your happiness, not any one else. 

You want your wife to do x, y and z and she isn't and that's creating conflict. 

Here's an idea. Don't ask about the kids and your parents babysitting. Just do it. 

Arrange the babysitting and book the get-away. 

Don't wait around for anyone else to make you happy - you'll be very disappointed.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You know deep down she'll never be what you need, what you deserve.


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

Jojo - Before you even got to reading her story EVERYTHING you posted about your wife and the yoga woman screamed 'girl crush'.

More importantly, it sounded like she was confused by it.

When she was crying,, you seemed confused by that. Question is,, why didn't you comfort her?

It's all a bit 'chicken or egg' - Does she not confide in you because she's secretive or because she knows you'll put your feelings ahead of hers?

Not accusing you of being an ogre,, you clearly aren't,, but there's an unfortunate theme to your posts.

The yoga teacher,, her reading to the kids,, writing her story, etc. Your wife does stuff - fills her time - while you've neglected means of filling your time with your own stuff and increasingly show signs of resentment.

Part jealousy,, part having little else to do,, part self-loathing that you're part responsible for where you're at, most likely.

Troubling is that the understandable concerns of page 1 have turned into paranoid thoughts of planting VARs and suchlike by page 5. THIS, despite the fact that you don't think she's cheating (and doesn't have the time). Well, neither do I.

You've forgotten how to communicate. You should be concerned that she may be looking to others for emotional support. But so are you. You said yourself she's the one that maintains friendships. If you'd done the same, you wouldn't be turning to us,, the random misfits of TAM.

There may be predatory males at large,, but she seems to be resisting them for now.

It's slipping towards the red zone though.

No blame to either party. A slow increase in mutual neglect,, add a dose of mutual resentment and now you're both lost as to the means of clawing 'it' back. It being what sustained a lengthy marriage.

You'll probably find she feels near exactly the same way you do.

Talk to her. Recognise that you've lost your communication mojo. Suggest counselling. Sunday afternoon 'talks'. Whatever gets you communicating again.

Go the VAR route,, and she busts you when she's done nothing wrong,, that might push her beyond reach.

You'll keep her by talking to her and getting back to effective communicating.

Go do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Complaining: We don't spend enough time together - is really bad

Being a better companion so she WANTS to spend more time with you - that's the ticket. 





Flying_Dutchman said:


> Jojo - Before you even got to reading her story EVERYTHING you posted about your wife and the yoga woman screamed 'girl crush'.
> 
> More importantly, it sounded like she was confused by it.
> 
> ...


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## Voltaire2013 (Sep 22, 2013)

JJ, 

Your self esteem has taken quite a blow, I can empathize. You know what my wife said to me when we finally sat down and had a long, non screaming talk after I read anything and everything in TAM for a year?

'I checked out' 


This was at a dinner where I was starting to 'date' her again. No sex was to be had but me & Mr. Jameson had a heart to heart that nite. I dont suggest that as a solution. The dog still looks at me funny. 

My heart sank at those words, (seeing them used as a weapon over in CWI) but I doubled down. We were both wrong and pointing fingers and not fixing. I could've taken the Eeyore route you seem to be on and had a helluva one man pity party but I made a lot of changes for me. If she felt the benefit of them, even better. Little by little we started meeting half way. I too was slighted with birthdays and special occasions when I went all out for her. She was under the assumption that since I did not make a stink about it I didn't really care. We both made bad assumptions. Something I used to say, which I now know is deplorable, was 'if you don't like it, divorce me' I said it in anger and sometimes after a wee too many drinks, never meant it but they were daggers each time to her and fostered her being checked out. I have a feeling you may say similar things as a defensive mechanism. 

Start working on you, and making you happy. She seems to have a full life outside of the marriage and you appear not to. Start filling brother. You make me think of a song by one of my favorite bands:
http://youtu.be/svBBytK-PqQ

Again, you can change the dynamic. Baby steps. There is a reason you've both been together this long. Sure you've both changed, but you're still evolving. Don't stop at the halfway point. 

I wish you nothing but luck. 

Cheers,
V(13)




jojo717 said:


> you're mostly right
> 
> my wife is very open to re-engaging with me...but it doesn't seem to be on the level I want and she is still more focused on the expansion of her personal and professional/social networks more than anything else
> 
> ...


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

Your wife is heterosexual with bisexual tendencies. She has no time for you, but has time for her friends. She already has betrayed you by writing about your family life and sharing this work with others, but not with you. This is most embarrassing for spouses. She doesn't care. I'm a published writer and has a full time career as well. I know what writing entails as I have written two books with a prominent publisher. 

You need to see a psychologist and sort out your mind. You either accept the behavior of your wife or get out of this situation. She has exerted her independence by forging friendships with males (the one who suggested to meet in some exotic location). She is poised to have a physical affair if not already. Get yourself mentally prepared as she is on her way out, at your expense.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You can be right, or you can be close. 

Your very focused on being right and winning. 

She's crushed that yoga girl rejected her and instead of seizing the moment and comforting her - making it all about her - you make it all about you by asking her to unfriend the girl. 

I'm not suggesting their relationship was good for your marriage. I'm saying that it was clearly harmless and yet you needed to get the last word. 

She didn't want to spend time with you becuse you aren't good at making her feel safe/happy. 

Your on a point scoring expedition - keep it up - and when the kids leave - your wife will likely follow. 




jojo717 said:


> you're mostly right
> 
> my wife is very open to re-engaging with me...but it doesn't seem to be on the level I want and she is still more focused on the expansion of her personal and professional/social networks more than anything else
> 
> ...


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## Voltaire2013 (Sep 22, 2013)

I respectfully disagree Dr. Though I know the fluidity in a woman's sexuality that you speak of.

I think his wife is searching for a connection, a connection he should be making, as a woman she's taking the 'safer' route by seeking another woman who 'gets her' thereby implying he does not/can not/ will not. I firmly believe he can fix this and that torches & pitchforks are not necessary.

Just my opinion based on what I've read and what I've been through. Hope I'm not projecting and am helping in some way. 

Cheers,
V(13)



Roselyn said:


> Your wife is heterosexual with ebisexual tendencies. She has no time for you, but has time for her friends. She already has betrayed you by writing about your family life and sharing this work with others, but not with you. This is most embarrassing for spouses. She doesn't care. I'm a published writer and has a full time career as well. I know what writing entails as I have written two books with a prominent publisher.
> 
> You need to see a psychologist and sort out your mind. You either accept the behavior of your wife or get out of this situation. She has exerted her independence by forging friendships with males (the one who suggested to meet in some exotic location). She is poised to have a physical affair if not already. Get yourself mentally prepared as she is on her way out, at your expense.


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

a few answers to folks on a number of topics-as you know I'm long winded though I prefer to call it being thorough



-i somewhat believe that she had a girl crush on yoga teacher 1...i am as certain as anyone can be that she is not attracted to women but there had to be some of that in this friendship

i knew she was getting very close with this girl and didn't see a problem with it

the problem was when she reacted like she had been dumped when the girl was moving

she knew this girl had a history of moving around a lot and not maintaining close friendships and my wife really connected with this girl

my wife overstated the connection the other girl felt AND made things worse with the girl by clinging/stalking/constantly reaching out to her and then using some of this girl's life as fodder for the story which ultimately ended their friendship totally


when wife was going through this heartbreak i tried to reach out and comfort and to a degree she let me-eventually telling me what was upsetting her so much

i thought it was over the top given the length of their friendship but ok whatever fine

even after telling me how close she felt to this girl, though, she still didn't share the story with me

if she'd never told me she was writing a fiction piece i wouldn't have asked to read it
i wouldn't eventually snooped to find out what she was hiding etc

i asked 4-5 times over a few weeks

my wife has always been pretty open-at least with things that are, well, in the open

i was an English major
we met in a bookstore

although my career hasn't followed that passion for writing/reading (as hers has) i thought she knew it was a big part of my identity 

I'm not a fix it guy-we have to hire men to come in and handle home repairs

here was one of the few things i had expertise and talent for that she knew about and i could have been the one to help with it, give her feedback,etc

but she turned to another man instead-

i don't think there is any chance she would do this guy-but what I've learned about their relationship and what i see has been off about ours for years tells me she could easily end up involved with someone (esp on one of her trips)


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

regarding filling up my life, etc

i teach martial arts three days/week (she used to participate in my classes but that stopped when we had kids...she started dipping her toes back in about a year and a half ago but ultimately prefers to do yoga almost exclusively for exercise now (so that has felt like another rejection since this is something we did together for about 7 years of dating and marriage prior to kids)

one of my best friends and one of my martial arts students opened his own gym
i work out there 2-3 days/week and we often go grab a beer

i have 1-2 very close friends but one runs a restaurant and is expecting another kid and doesn't have a lot of time for me these days

the other lives across the country-she is a psych counselor and has helped me with this but i thought i would also get feedback from TAM

i'm not some kind of hermit...though the social life i have is not as deep or wide as it was when i was younger
and it is very hard to make friends at this age for anyone-esp men



the issue is that i want a relationship and companionship with my wife


and she says she wants one and has taken some steps of her own to create one again but end of the day i can't seem to let go of how she let everything she wanted to do from 2011-13 take precedence over a getaway she promised me for 2010

she says i can't change the past and let's move forward

but i want some self examination out of her beyond 'i'm sorry i didn't make it a higher priority"

f'n a

she didn't make it ANY priority


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## jojo717 (Dec 17, 2013)

big blowup this morning

we've had many the past 18 months

ended with her saying she wants to separate, sell the house, this isn't working etc

not the first time

but neither of us actually want that


but i'm just done with her work travel

and i don't know how to move past my anger that even going to see yoga teacher who didn't invite her and told her they weren't friends was more important to my wife than going on a getaway with me 

i know i'm not manning up as i should

i'm a child of divorce and i know that we don't truly have the kinds of issues that justify divorce (abuse, addiction, infidelity)

but i can't forgive her for pushing me so far away after we both agreed to start focusing more on each other

and i'm very threatened by and frustrated with her constant latching on to new people when we don't have time in our lives for each other

on top of this-all of this came to a head while i was seeing my business fall apart which hopefully recently is showing signs of turning around for the first time in 18 months

it can't have helped my dealing with all of this to have financial issues to boot


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

turnera said:


> You know deep down she'll never be what you need, what you deserve.


I see just the opposite. He hasn't read MMSLP, HE PAID ZERO attention to Mach. He's obsessing so bad on his wife he can't do his job. He won't just make arrangements for his parents to keep the kids.

His wife is traveling more to get away from this crap. He's lost his man card.

I'm surprised his wife's still here. He takes martial arts but doesn't have the ability to fight his way out of a wet paper bag.

Get MMSLP and quit acting like a whipped little boy.

Google NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY free, download it and see if it fits. It does about half the time its recommended.

I can't see why your wife is still putting up with you, oh yeah...........kids.

Get off your ass and think.

Read bagdon's, neuklas' and DayOne's threads.

Your time is running out quickly.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Just catching up. This place is for us to help each other. The fact is you did nothing that was recommended to you that has worked over and over. Now you've actually driven her to as k for a separation. Yes she might have done it before but how are you going to feel when she really separates.

READ THE BOOKS.

Why do you think a woman would want to be with a needy, whiny, clingy and pouty man? The answer to that is in MMSLP.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You need individual counseling.

Thinking your wife won't really dump you is brain dead.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Two things. One, she ignores you, seeks other people, invests in other things, because YOU ARE SAFE. She has NO illusion that you will ever leave her. 

Two, she wants A MAN and you're being a doormat. She has NO REASON to pay attention to you or worry about you or work to keep you because you're being weak, doing nothing to improve, and won't stand up for what you want.

Please, if you do nothing else, get the book No More Mr Nice Guy and read it. It's not that hard of a read. Pretty simple, really, but it will make a big change.


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## Voltaire2013 (Sep 22, 2013)

JJ,

Are you seeing a pattern here with the responses? Men & women giving you great advice. I personally suck at it, you have some great members otherwise rooting for you. Please read. Please.

Cheers,
V(13)



turnera said:


> Two things. One, she ignores you, seeks other people, invests in other things, because YOU ARE SAFE. She has NO illusion that you will ever leave her.
> 
> Two, she wants A MAN and you're being a doormat. She has NO REASON to pay attention to you or worry about you or work to keep you because you're being weak, doing nothing to improve, and won't stand up for what you want.
> 
> Please, if you do nothing else, get the book No More Mr Nice Guy and read it. It's not that hard of a read. Pretty simple, really, but it will make a big change.


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