# When the Pain Turns to Anger



## Paulination

In case you haven't heard my story before, I'll summarize briefly.

Up until one month ago I thought everything in my marriage was fine. My wife is a SAHM with her hobbies and we have two kids. Suddenly one night she seems sad and I ask her about it and she tells me, reluctantly that she is not happy. I probe her for the reasons and I get two reletively minor complaints which I rectified immediately.
She suggested an "in home seperation" and I reluctanly agreed because I can't force her to change her feelings.
She does not want a divorce and she wants time to "fix" her feelings for me which are "I still love you but something is missing" and "I just don't feel the same as I used to". She also informed that she has lost her sex drive.

Ofcourse I have been hurting ever since. It has been hard to deal with work and life in general as I am consumed but has happenned and what it means for the future. I try to talk to her pleasently about how she feels but it always goes south and ends up in a blowout at some ungodly time in the night. I have learned my lesson about letting conversations get out of hand so there has been more peace.

So on topic, I woke up at 5 am this morning (alarm goes off at 6:30) and it was if I woke up thinking about this. I couldn't go back to sleep and just looked at her and my pain just turned to anger.

I'm angry that while she is putting me through this, her life is seemingly unaffected. I feel like there should be a consequence.
She'll get up today at 10am, run for an hour, watch some Gossip Girl or One Tree Hill on the DVR, play on Facebook etc...until she picks up our son from school. She'll work on her soccer, talk to a friend and just be on this almost perpetual vacation that I have provided. Meanwhile I have to put on my suit and cope in the business world with rattling around in my head. Anger does feel better than pain but still. 

I'm also torn because she does exhibet signs of depression or thyroid disorder (diagnosed and treated but I don't think the treatments are working anymore) so I shouldn't be mad if this is out of her control.

Lastly, she wanted this time to fix her feelings but has done nothing. I bought us each a copy of divorce busters which she hasn't touched. I am reading self help books (currently on No More Mr Nice Guy as well as Divorce Busters) and have spent hours online trying to wrap my mind around this and what I can do to be a better husband. She hasn't done a thing and I'm now getting pissed. BUT, I know I can't let her know that so I just have to suck it up I suppose. Venting here helps hence the wall of text.

In the absence of a EA or PA, how does a women treat her man like this.


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## Mavash.

Anger = powerlessness

What you are mad about is she is doing whatever she wants while you suffer.

Had to be the bearer of bad news but SHE doesn't have to do a thing. Why should she? Her life is working just fine.

That is your truth. Now what are YOU going to do about it?


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## tacoma

Mavash. said:


> Anger = powerlessness
> 
> What you are mad about is she is doing whatever she wants while you suffer.
> 
> Had to be the bearer of bad news but SHE doesn't have to do a thing. Why should she? Her life is working just fine.
> 
> That is your truth. Now what are YOU going to do about it?


Mavash is right.

You need to do something because this insane limbo can`t continue.

Her life sounds ideal, start putting some stress in it.
Stop bottling up your emotions and let her have it OR do a 180 on her.
You have to put some pressure on her somehow.

Myself, I`d go off on her then do a 180 and stop being home except to sleep and shower.
I might end up driving around endlessly but she wouldn`t know that and she`d freak about where I was and what I was doing.


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## Mavash.

I'd cut off the money, cancel the internet, cable, and put a severe crimp in her lovely life that YOU have provided.

She wants time to fix her problems....give it to her. No more FB, no more Gossip Girl, and no more hobbies either.

And if she doesn't like it she can get a JOB and see how the other half lives.


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## Mavash.

Paulination said:


> I'm also torn because she does exhibet signs of depression or thyroid disorder (diagnosed and treated but I don't think the treatments are working anymore) so I shouldn't be mad if this is out of her control.


This is BS too. I have ptsd and depression. And yet I am totally in control of it. Yes that meant I had to seek help, yes that meant I have to work for it but out of my control? Hardly.


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## southern wife

Mavash. said:


> I'd cut off the money, cancel the internet, cable, and put a severe crimp in her lovely life that YOU have provided.
> 
> She wants time to fix her problems....give it to her. No more FB, no more Gossip Girl, and no more hobbies either.
> 
> And if she doesn't like it she can get a JOB and see how the other half lives.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


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## MSP

Sitting around all day doing nothing much isn't being a SAHM. I think being a SAHM is a good thing, but it has to involve interacting with kids. She should get a part time job for the hours when she's not taking care of your son or doing housework.

"In home separation" is a load of crap. I wouldn't agree to it. I'm not a fan of separation in the first place, but this is just her way of leeching off you without giving back.


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## A Bit Much

Women like your wife (the way you describe her) infuriate and sicken me. She obviously doesn't know how good she has it. An in home separation? no sex? WTF is that really about??

IMO she really has no complaints with you... she's only trying to justify cutting you off emotionally so that she can pursue other things. Selfish people have no feelings for others. Their needs and wants are valued more than yours. 

If I were you, I'd tell her what you've observed since she made her announcement. I'd also tell her that you're not accepting any of her suggestions until she can give a valid reason why you should. You're in a marriage not an arrangement... unless she WANTS it that way. In which case, the 180 is what you need to do if she chooses the latter. Don't allow her to feed you this nonsense. If she's so unhappy and wants to separate, then she needs to go pack a bag.

Usually this type has thoughts of the grass being greener and wants to pursue it, if not for that pesky spouse they're married to.


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## Paulination

Mavash. said:


> I'd cut off the money, cancel the internet, cable, and put a severe crimp in her lovely life that YOU have provided.
> 
> She wants time to fix her problems....give it to her. No more FB, no more Gossip Girl, and no more hobbies either.
> 
> And if she doesn't like it she can get a JOB and see how the other half lives.


In one of our arguments I mentioned cutting her and she says "fine, do it then" and was completely pissed. Ofcourse, I didn't do it and she mentioned me saying that in a FB chat with a girlfriend in which I was flamed back and forth as an a-hole.

I hear you guys. I'm going to seriously consider shaking some things up. I've been too worried about the potential consequences to pull the trigger. I'm reading No More Mr Nice Guy to help break that frame of mind.


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## Mavash.

Paulination said:


> In one of our arguments I mentioned cutting her and she says "fine, do it then" and was completely pissed.


Good!!! Look at the title of this threat that YOU started. You are angry so why shouldn't she be too?

Isn't it pissing YOU off that she has no consequences for her selfish behavior? Give her some.

Oh and she's bluffing. She doesn't think you are man enough to pull the trigger. You are too nice.

Prove her wrong.


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## A Bit Much

> In one of our arguments I mentioned cutting her and she says "fine, do it then" and was completely pissed. Ofcourse, I didn't do it and she mentioned me saying that in a FB chat with a girlfriend in which I was flamed back and forth as an a-hole.


If you're seperated why should you pay for services SHE uses? She should pay her own way or STFU. It doesn't make you an A-hole at all.


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## Tall Average Guy

Paulination said:


> I'm angry that while she is putting me through this, her life is seemingly unaffected. I feel like there should be a consequence.
> She'll get up today at 10am, run for an hour, watch some Gossip Girl or One Tree Hill on the DVR, play on Facebook etc...until she picks up our son from school. She'll work on her soccer, talk to a friend and just be on this almost perpetual vacation that I have provided. Meanwhile I have to put on my suit and cope in the business world with rattling around in my head. Anger does feel better than pain but still.


I agree with the above, but wanted to add one more comment. 

How do you know this is what she does? That is a lot of unaccounted for time for her to do anything, including being out with others. Who else is she meeting and what are they telling her? Is some one else meeting her emotional needs? I don't know your wife, but I do not think that you can automatically trust your wife to tell you what she does during the day.


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## Lydia

Show her that you are a strong man, independent, and you have a self-esteem. Prove that you aren't afraid to dump her and her cozy lifestyle. Who cares if she thinks you're an a-hole? The only one who looks like an a-hole in your story is HER. She is mooching off of you and even using your money to talk crap about you to her friend.

You don't deserve that. Prove it to her. Go out on your own, do something for yourself, spend more of your hard-earned money on yourself. Take a trip with friends, come home just to shower and go to bed. 

She sounds like she needs counseling, and needs to have no contact with her toxic friend - but she needs a wake up call to realize that.


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## Lydia

And also, can you 100% say without ANY doubt that your wife isn't having an affair?


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## southern wife

MSP said:


> .....this is just her way of leeching off you without giving back.


:iagree: You need to shake things up in her world. What "consequences" are you afraid of?


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## nice777guy

Paulination said:


> In one of our arguments I mentioned cutting her and she says "fine, do it then" and was completely pissed. Ofcourse, I didn't do it and she mentioned me saying that in a FB chat with a girlfriend in which I was flamed back and forth as an a-hole.
> 
> I hear you guys. I'm going to seriously consider shaking some things up. I've been too worried about the potential consequences to pull the trigger. I'm reading No More Mr Nice Guy to help break that frame of mind.


If you can't or won't do it, don't threaten it.

Anger is normal - but as others are saying - try to focus on what you have control over. You can't control how she is treating you.


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## synthetic

Are you fully aware of how your wife's time is spent while you're not home? I can't understand how she manages to go about her usual business while this big elephant is sitting between the two of you.

She can't be enjoying this unless she's in an affair and feeding off the emotional/physical hype that it provides.

Have you done enough snooping?


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## Paulination

synthetic said:


> Are you fully aware of how your wife's time is spent while you're not home? I can't understand how she manages to go about her usual business while this big elephant is sitting between the two of you.
> 
> She can't be enjoying this unless she's in an affair and feeding off the emotional/physical hype that it provides.
> 
> Have you done enough snooping?


I appreciate the responses so please consider this a response to all who have commented because I'm thankful to every one here.

First, EA or PA. I have done my due dilligence. We do have a three year old at home so she has to tend to her which would make an affair difficult during the day. I have also used a couple of tools of modern technology to check her personal devices and there is nothing but the one flaming conversation she had. She even mentioned to this friend that I asked her if there was anyone else with my saying "can you believe he asked me that?" This friend is not someone you wouldn't admit an affair to so there is that.

Let me be honest with all of you for a moment (not that I haven't been). I met my wife when she was 19 and I was 28 (now 33 and 42). She literally went from living with her parents to living with me besides a 6 month period she had her own place.

I have been literally coddling her ever since and have this irrepresible habit of trying to always make her comfortable. She worked until our son was born and then I made arrangements and sacrifices in my life so she could SAH. I have done her the misfortune of over protecting her. I'm conflicted about why she doesn't want a divorce in the sense that is it me, or is it the fact that her life would change in a fundamental and dramatic way.

If you knew me you would not consider me a weak man physically, not emotionally. I look people in the eye, I speak and act confidently, walk tall etc.. 

I just have a weak spot for her that I feel powerless to control. It has become my lifes mission to protect and care for her and I don't know how to turn that off. I thought it was all part of the journey to be the best husband a women could want. My first marriage failed and I so desperatly wanted this one for life. If me being to giving costs me this marriage I think I'll choke on the irony.

I am taking her to the doctor next Tuesday to make sure the thyroid is under control. She supposed to go to IC next week. If her thyroid is fine or if there is no hint of progress in the therapy and she doesn't make any effort, I will have to change my MO. Is that being too understanding?


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## A Bit Much

Sounds like she's a spoiled child (figuratively speaking.) And rather than get upset her or tell her NO, you give her what she wants. You're so busy protecting and caring, you've lost yourself in her. It's almost a form of worship. How's that working out for you?

You're going to have to reign it in. BIG TIME. This has gotten completely out of hand, and somewhere along the way, your precious wife has stopped respecting you. She even expects you to continue on like she didn't break your heart the other day as if she didn't say the things she did. She has also taken the opportunity to add insult to injury by bad mouthing you to friends. She doesn't feel bad about it, she knows you'll only be upset, but continue to give what she wants. The mere suggestion of 'in home separation' shows you what she really thinks about your giving heart. 

You may not be a doormat to everyone else, but you are to her. Take that anger and do something useful with it. You don't have to go the eye for an eye way, that's as immature as she is... you can take some of that power back and let her know that the pedestal you put her on is about to topple over by a swift kick.


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## Mavash.

Paulination said:


> Is that being too understanding?


Yes

She's a spoiled brat and it needs to stop NOW.


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## Mavash.

Paulination said:


> I thought it was all part of the journey to be the best husband a women could want.


How's that journey working out for you?

Are you mad yet?


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## MSP

Paul, you've been beta with her without the alpha. Beta is not bad--caring for and protecting her are great--but it needs to be balanced with a confident, king-of-your-castle kinda attitude.


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## 67flh

before you go making her life rough,i would make sure some loose ends are tied up. money moved around,stop her c cards, she is gonna go off the deep end,thats what spoiled people do.


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## ocotillo

Knowledge is power. 'Down and dirty' cure for Facebook:

C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\etc\hosts


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## Paulination

ocotillo said:


> Knowledge is power. 'Down and dirty' cure for Facebook:
> 
> C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\etc\hosts
> 
> 127.0.0.1 Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More
> 127.0.0.1 facebook.com
> 127.0.0.1 static.ak.fbcdn.net
> 127.0.0.1 www.static.ak.fbcdn.net
> 127.0.0.1 login.facebook.com
> 127.0.0.1 www.login.facebook.com
> 127.0.0.1 fbcdn.net
> 127.0.0.1 Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More
> 127.0.0.1 fbcdn.com
> 127.0.0.1 Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More
> 127.0.0.1 static.ak.connect.facebook.com
> 127.0.0.1 www.static.ak.connect.facebook.com


I'm not sure what all this is?


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## ocotillo

At: 

C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\etc\​
...there is a small text file called, _hosts_

This is the very first place Windows looks for DNS resolution (DNS resolution = Linking an IP to a Domain name)

127.0.0.1 is the local computer itself. 

Therefore, linking that IP to a domain (Like Facebook) short circuits the DNS lookup process and makes the domain inaccessible. 

If the text I showed above existed in the hosts file, that's exactly what would happen.

It's a 'dirty trick' but far less drastic than cancelling the internet service


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## Paulination

This is so wierd. My wife used to call me three or four times a day to see what I was up to or to tell me about something little. Just like that, it all ended when she revealed how she felt. I didn't come home until 7:15 tonight which is 2 hours later than usual and she neve once called me.

I resisted the natural compulsion to question her on this and just kind of kept my distance. I was then hit with "What's wrong" and stuff like that three times.

The good news is my doctor whom she is about to see on tuesday about her thyroid called me back tonight and I explained some of the things I was observing (no weight loss, no sex drive, depressive behavior) and a gree to do a full hormone panel on her that goes above and beyong the normal standard thyroid test.

I just want to rule that out before I play hardball.


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## rokia82

My husband and I are currently going through Marriage Counceling, and we have even fought in front of the counceler. Perhaps, it would be best to go through Marriage Counceling and when there is a fight have a mediator, someone who is neutral on both sides. It also sounds like she needs to go through theropy as well and possibly take a psychotic med. I am currently taking a med for motivation, perhaps that type of med could also help.


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## Halien

So, she's flaming you on facebook on a computer that you paid for, and an internet service that you provided?

I think you really need to start looking at things like this for a while. As men, we are programmed by society to go into marriage thinking that we are wrong, by default, in matters of the heart. Your wife just went along for the ride in her side of this grand bargain, which she can't be blamed for, but time allowed her to take for granted the notion that you have placed yourself at a lower level than her in respect to wants and desires. The definition of a nice guy is that he elevates his wife's needs above his own, in my opinion. We should all be nice guys, to a degree, but I think that you have to begin demanding the same in return from her.

I don't think it is time for ultimatums that can end the marriage. Think about it from the perspective of your desire for your future together. Wouldn't a real alpha guy just assume that harmony together was the ONLY option? If she doesn't like the new deal, then she needs to decide if moving out of the home, and divorce, are her options. You can simply tell her that this new expectation is not optional, although you will say it in different terms.

First, you can expect respect, especially if you are the sole provider. Who cares if she doesn't think it is fair if you now demand tranparency, and a promise that your relationship will only be discussed between the two of you, and certified professionals? You can tell her that you think she is not pulling her share of the load if she really has time for television and things for herself during the day. Hypothetically, ask her what is her plan to equal things out, so that she works one day while you go part time. 

I really respect and value my wife, but she values me enough to never allow some of the things your wife demands by default. She could've easily ended up in a similar place, by her admission, but through pre-marital counseling, we had always agreed that we would talk about the difficult topics of fairness as a condition of marriage. 

Its critical, I believe, to try to avoid getting into a mode where you only do for her what she first does for you, when it comes to how the two of you elevate each other's needs. My only point is that you can expect fair treatment from her, while still promising that you will continue to cherish her. She is the one who chooses to opt out of this new contract. Let the guilt and consequences rest on her shoulders alone. At first, verbal agreement can be enough, when it comes to the areas where you want change. You can talk about prioritizing the areas where she needs to focus on first. In other words, at first, tell her that the idea of in-house seperation will not work. If she wants out of intimacy, let her decide her course of action. Tell her that this will not include you giving up your house, though. You can committ to join her for counseling, but you will not accept anything less than continual improvement. A week later, talk about facebook. 

Just my thoughts.


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## chillymorn

I think she cheating with someone.

start snooping and make sure shes not.

if it walks like a duck then she banging someone else.


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## A Bit Much

Paulination said:


> This is so wierd. My wife used to call me three or four times a day to see what I was up to or to tell me about something little. Just like that, it all ended when she revealed how she felt. I didn't come home until 7:15 tonight which is 2 hours later than usual and she neve once called me.
> 
> I resisted the natural compulsion to question her on this and just kind of kept my distance. I was then hit with "What's wrong" and stuff like that three times.
> 
> The good news is my doctor whom she is about to see on tuesday about her thyroid called me back tonight and I explained some of the things I was observing (no weight loss, no sex drive, depressive behavior) and a gree to do a full hormone panel on her that goes above and beyong the normal standard thyroid test.
> 
> I just want to rule that out before I play hardball.



Betcha $100 it's not the thyroid. She's not depressed either. She has *other interests. 

There are none so blind as those who will not see.


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## Posse

Paulination said:


> I just have a weak spot for her that I feel powerless to control. It has become my lifes mission to protect and care for her and I don't know how to turn that off.


You are who I was 5 years ago. I got over it. You can too. You need to for your own mental health and well-being.

I have been there. I had the weak spot for my wife, and would take crap from nobody else.... BUT HER. It took growing disrespect and misbehavior from my wife for me to realize that my approach wasn't going to work long term. 

You have your wife on a pedestal in your mind. She is only on it because you continue to keep her there. Your wife would not deserve to be on a pedestal even if she were treating you right. Nobody does. She, like everyone else on this planet, is a mortal with frailties and flaws. 

Your wife's behavior is bad. Period. 

Giving her whatever she wants and bending over backwards not to create waves is like rewarding a 5 year old when he/she is misbehaving. You are rewarding her bad behavior.

The pedestal you have her on is a figment of your imagination. It is a flaw in your thinking. 

Continue this thought process, and you will keep getting what you are getting, which is being disrespected and treated like crap.

You need to figure out why YOU are allowing yourself to be treated this way by your wife. You can be Mr. Confident, walk tall, look people in the eye, be a captain of industry, heck, you can be a dictator of a small country. But you aren't capable of standing up for yourself with your wife. 

The only person who will stick up for you is YOU.

Your wife won't do it. She is selfish and will do what she can get away with. Everyone is selfish. While you may want to think that your wife is truly a unique snowflake, she is as flawed as everyone else on this planet. 

People push boundaries to see where they are. Kids do it, employees do it, friends do it, everyone does it. That is why we have laws--because bad things happen if people are allowed to do whatever they feel like doing. 

If you have no boundaries, the sky is the limit for unacceptable behavior. Allow people to disrespect you and they often will.

Where your wife is concerned, you are a Nice Guy. This is not a good thing, unless you like being treated badly.

When you have someone on a pedestal, you tend to accept what they say as the golden truth graven in stone from Mt. Sinai. The problem is that the person you have on the pedestal is just as full of crap as everyone else. You just don't see it because of your personal blinders.

I'd consider some IC to figure out how to be able to implement and enforce your personal boundaries in regards to your wife. 

I would strongly recommend that you do a personal counseling session with the lady who runs: http://www.shrink4men.com/. I did one session. It was the best hour of my life and the best money I ever spent. It opened my eyes to my flawed thinking. It was like getting slapped awake with a cold wet towel. I can't say enough about how valuable her perspective was.

I'd also spend some serious time reading through some other links, absorbing what you read, and taking it to heart:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html 

Married Man Sex Life


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## Mavash.

Paulination said:


> The good news is my doctor whom she is about to see on tuesday about her thyroid called me back tonight and I explained some of the things I was observing (no weight loss, no sex drive, depressive behavior) and a gree to do a full hormone panel on her that goes above and beyong the normal standard thyroid test.
> 
> I just want to rule that out before I play hardball.


I told you this before but will tell you again. I have ptsd and depression. I'm menopausal and my hormones are wacked out (no sex drive, depressive behavior, etc). 

However.....NONE of this gives me a valid excuse to treat my husband like crap especially since I too am a homemaker and he pays for my cushy life. To the best of my ability I treat my husband like a king. I'm not a stupid woman. I know how good I have it.

So I'm calling BS on all this and say you are being played.


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## Hopefull363

Paulination,
Find out the real problem first. You're checking to see if it's physical. That's good. Now get her off to IC and both of you to MC to see why she disconnected. Ask her if she wants to work on the marriage with you. If so an in house separation is not the answer. If she doesn't feel like working on the marriage try a real separation to jolt her out of it. If she wants to work on the marriage have her prove it by reading a book of your choice. (Read the book first of course) Then she'll have the tools to work on it if she wants to. If she can't be bothered to read the book consider her unwilling to work it out.


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## Gratitude

When the pain turns to anger, it means you've had enough.

If you protect someone too much they will never learn anything on their own. Step back and drop her out in the real world. If she is seeing someone else, no doubt she'll come crawling back once she realises how good she had it. If she doesn't appreciate and respect you, why do you give her the same back? And if her thoughts aren't with you ... where are they?

In house seperation? No one gets married to sleep alone.


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## bandit.45

If she wants a separation then give her one. 
Pull all the money in a account that she cannot access. Shut off her cell phone and cable. Why should you pay for her to go on FB and talk smack about you? Turn that aprtment or house of yours into a f*cking log cabin. Then keep doing the 180. Let her squeal and threaten; just stand your ground and stay cool and calm. Keep doing the 180 on her. 

I also tend to think she may have a male interest on the side and she's staying with you until he makes a decision to have her come and join him or not. The fantasy world that waywards live in is unbelievable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ten_year_hubby

Paulination said:


> She suggested an "in home seperation" and I reluctanly agreed because I can't force her to change her feelings.
> She does not want a divorce and she wants time to "fix" her feelings for me which are "I still love you but something is missing" and "I just don't feel the same as I used to". She also informed that she has lost her sex drive.


Paulination,

There seems to be an epidemic of this. Sorry to hear it's happening to you.

In my humble opinion, what is happening here is that both of you are buying into the supremacy of feelings and you are letting feelings lead your relationship. Baloney. Feelings derive from thoughts and actions, not vice versa. You feel what you think and do.

My humble advice: get a regular babysitter and take your wife out to a nice restaurant right away and at least once a week for a month. Hold her hand and explain nicely to her that since you are married, you expect the two of you to live together as man and wife. 

Your wife receives an million messages a day that undermine your marriage. This is the source of her feelings. Make sure you are a source of her feelings through your direct action.


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## Paulination

Great advice by all. As for her having other interests, it was my first thought. I attacked that angle immediately over the last two weeks by:

Asking her directly if she was cheating on me or if she had a crush.
Doing an accounting of her time out of the house.
Checked phone records and text records.
Had a keylogger and screen shot recorder installed on her computer.

I found nothing but two conversations with her friend where she was complaining about me and it has been a week since then even though she has talked with her friend since then.

So unless she has gone that far underground, I'm moving away from that thought to focus on what I am really dealing with.

My course of action over the next week is to get "levels" checked by the doctor. I spoke with him privately yesterday to make sure he had a clear and truthful picture and he has agreed to run several different tests instead of just the routine.

If she checks out fine, then I need to ramp this up quicker and harder than I had otherwise planned. If her levels are off, then the doctor will prescribe something for which I will give it a little time to take effect. 

I like the idea of taking out to a restaurant without the kids and re-defining what this marriage will be for now on. I might even thank her for putting me through 1 month of hell because it drove me to research all sorts of issues and find great advice such as what I am reading here. It also got me to read "no More Mr Nice Guy" and "Marriage Busters" so I feel very much better equiped to be married appropriately.


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## A Bit Much

Hormone changes wouldn't make me want a separation from my husband. That doesn't even make any sense.

She needs therapy.


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## Conrad

Paulie,

You told me in the other thread that your wife is likely broken emotionally. This isn't thyroid.

It's putting you in your place.


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## Paulination

Guys, I'm not saying it is all thyroid. I'm saying that it might be a piece of this puzzle. She has a history of it. I have read all about the symptoms:

You can't lose weight (my wife runs 1 hour/day 5 days a week, is on Jenny Craig, and plays rec. soccer twice a week and still can't lose weight)
Anxiety and depression
low or no sex drive
Fatigue (she can sleep 8 hours and then take a nap at 5 pm and how quick she can fall asleep is scary)

Do I think some Thyroid drugs and the problem goes away, ofcourse not but maybe we take the cloud away so we can examine how she really feels if anything different.

The thing is, checking her thyroid is the quickest potential piece of the puzzle we can place.


----------



## Complexity

Did she give you the "I love you but not in love with you" speech yet?


----------



## Paulination

Complexity said:


> Did she give you the "I love you but not in love with you" speech yet?


No but if she does, I hope she changes the wording. I cringe every time I hear it not because of the meaning, but the cliche.

To be honest she hasn't even said the "something is missing" and "I don't feel the same" to my face. I read it while she was *****ing about me to her girlfriend. The most she has said to me is "I'm not happy, but I don't want a divorce and we'll work on the marriage".

I'm not stupid so I take that to mean it's too inconvenient to divorce and she'll give the illusion of working on it to placate me.

I hope I am wrong but since she hasn't done anything to work on it, I'm losing hope. She has agreed to go to the doctor and we go Tuesday but who knows.


----------



## MSP

Sometimes people flounder when they aren't given clear directions in life and offering them a clear choice just scares them the wrong way. Being a strong leader can get them to follow. It sounds like your wife doesn't know what she wants. Show her what she wants.


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## Conrad

MSP said:


> Sometimes people flounder when they aren't given clear directions in life and offering them a clear choice just scares them the wrong way. Being a strong leader can get them to follow. It sounds like your wife doesn't know what she wants. Show her what she wants.


It won't matter if she's broken.

Paulie's testimony indicates that she is.


----------



## Paulination

She's really being a piece of work today. Just snapping about everything. It is diffucult to stay calm and not let it escallate which is how I would have previously handled it.


----------



## Complexity

Paulination said:


> No but if she does, I hope she changes the wording. I cringe every time I hear it not because of the meaning, but the cliche.
> 
> To be honest she hasn't even said the "something is missing" and "I don't feel the same" to my face. I read it while she was *****ing about me to her girlfriend. The most she has said to me is "I'm not happy, but I don't want a divorce and we'll work on the marriage".
> 
> I'm not stupid so I take that to mean it's too inconvenient to divorce and she'll give the illusion of working on it to placate me.
> 
> I hope I am wrong but since she hasn't done anything to work on it, I'm losing hope. She has agreed to go to the doctor and we go Tuesday but who knows.


Putting this all on a thyroid problems and depression might be a little short sighted in my opinion. The two shouldn't necessarily cause this amount of anger and resentment to be deflected onto your significant other, especially for this prolonged period without any respite. As you've ruled out infidelity, I'm beginning to think this is a person who's gotten too "comfortable" in this marriage and has begun to take what you do to her for granted. I wouldn't be surprised if people looking from the outside would say that you do too much. 

I really don't know what to say because it appears you're the one that's doing all the heavy lifting while she's being content with carrying on this hostile demeanour. For your peace of mind I would wait until the doctor's appointment to rule out any medical issues but after that I suggest you have serious talk about where this marriage should go.


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## LostWifeCrushed

"Up until one month ago I thought everything in my marriage was fine. My wife is a SAHM with her hobbies and we have two kids. Suddenly one night she seems sad and I ask her about it and she tells me, reluctantly that she is not happy. I probe her for the reasons and I get two reletively minor complaints which I rectified immediately.
She suggested an "in home seperation" and I reluctanly agreed because I can't force her to change her feelings.
She does not want a divorce and she wants time to "fix" her feelings for me which are "I still love you but something is missing" and "I just don't feel the same as I used to". She also informed that she has lost her sex drive." 

Some of these things you took back later and mentioned you "assumed" this is what she meant...

You also seem to have a lot of "support" here from people telling you to cut her off, etc. Didn't you say you have 2 children together? You "agreed" to an in house separation because you "can't change how she feels". Why would you agree to it if it wasn't what you wanted? Why didn't you tell her you thought that was extreme and avoiding each other wasn't the solution?

You seem to be hung up on the fact that you are trying and she isn't doing enough. Tell her what you need from her. Stop trying to rule out the physical problem before you play "hardball". What if the problem is mental/emotional?

She is shutting down from you. She is closing you out. You seem to be mad at her for venting her frustration online (fb), but you allow yourself to do it here when you can't stand it.

If you want to save your marriage, you need to find out why she does not emotionally trust you anymore. And I really wish people would realize that taking care of 2 children IS A JOB.

I am not excusing her behavior, at all. She is not coping in a healthy or productive way. Put your foot down but do it with compassion. Tell her she needs to make repairing the marriage her number one priority in order for you to stay together. Don't let her tell you anything to the contrary. No excuses. If she fails to respond, put a separation agreement in front of her.


----------



## tiredwife&sahm

Could it be that being a SAHM has something to do with this? Reason I say this is because I am a SAHM. I have 4 little ones and I never feel that my husband values what I do. I feel no one values what mothers do. I've been out of the workforce for 6 years. I have tried desperately to get a job and no one will hire me. Not to mention that because I'm the primary care taker I will be the one having to work my schedule around my family and not vice versa so that makes getting a job even harder. It's depressing cause I feel like I have no sense of direction or purpose right now. Maybe she is frustrated with her life and where its going or the lack of going anywhere.


----------



## Paulination

So we went to the doctor today about the thyroid and as far as symptoms go, she only mentions not being able to lose weight. I chime in and tell doc "there are other things". Shes lost interest in all of her hobbies, no sex drive etc..the emotional side of hormonal imbalance and such so doc orders a bevy of tests which is what I wanted.

Get home, wife is bugged, I ask why and it is because I brought up the other stuff to doc. And BTW, she says she still has a sex drive but just doesn't want sex with me right now. I thought about this possibility so I positioned her vibrator in a way that it would be obvious if she used it over a month ago and it hasn't been touched.

So please help me clarify what I should do.

The situation:
There is no EA or PA (I have thoroughly investigated)
Wife is not happy, has lost something for me.
She is a SAHM
Says she doesn't want a divorce but needs time to work on her feelings.
It has been 1 1/2 months.

Me, have adressed her concerns and been working on bettering myself (working out, reading books on marriage and No More Mr Nice Guy).

There was no overt action that preceded this and it was a total surprise to me.

My biggest problem I've been having is trying not to talk about it since it always gets ugly.

Her mom thinks I should just lay low and give her time. My wife thinks I should just give her time.

Is that the answer? Is a 180 the answer? 

I'm am not going to live like this forever and I most certainly won't stay in a sexless marriage.

You guys have given me alot of great advice and it is time to take some of it so help bring it home again, what would you do in my shoes.


----------



## bandit.45

I would say do the 180. What can it hurt? It's not like she gives a crap about your feelings anyway. She's not putting forth any effort at all and you're spinning your wheels. I think its time to take the focus off her and start focusing on your needs. 

Start making plans, start packing your stuff into boxes, get rid of crap you don't need, so that on the day you do decide to leave her sorry a*s you'll have most of the work already done. 

She'll see you doing this and ask you what you are up to. Say nothing. Just keep making plans: look for a new crib, get out and make some new friends, join a health club and stay there during the evenings.

Quit being so damn available for her. Let her pursue you and see where that takes things.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Paulination said:


> So we went to the doctor today about the thyroid and as far as symptoms go, she only mentions not being able to lose weight. I chime in and tell doc "there are other things". Shes lost interest in all of her hobbies, no sex drive etc..the emotional side of hormonal imbalance and such so doc orders a bevy of tests which is what I wanted.
> 
> Get home, wife is bugged, I ask why and it is because I brought up the other stuff to doc. And BTW, she says she still has a sex drive but just doesn't want sex with me right now. I thought about this possibility so I positioned her vibrator in a way that it would be obvious if she used it over a month ago and it hasn't been touched.
> 
> So please help me clarify what I should do.
> 
> The situation:
> There is no EA or PA (I have thoroughly investigated)
> Wife is not happy, has lost something for me.
> She is a SAHM
> Says she doesn't want a divorce but needs time to work on her feelings.
> It has been 1 1/2 months.
> 
> Me, have adressed her concerns and been working on bettering myself (working out, reading books on marriage and No More Mr Nice Guy).
> 
> There was no overt action that preceded this and it was a total surprise to me.
> 
> My biggest problem I've been having is trying not to talk about it since it always gets ugly.
> 
> Her mom thinks I should just lay low and give her time. My wife thinks I should just give her time.
> 
> Is that the answer? Is a 180 the answer?
> 
> I'm am not going to live like this forever and I most certainly won't stay in a sexless marriage.
> 
> You guys have given me alot of great advice and it is time to take some of it so help bring it home again, what would you do in my shoes.


6 weeks??? Ha, that's nothing when dealing with SAHM depression. Try 1.5 years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Complexity

Give her more time, focus on the 180 and yourself. Don't ask her about herself, how she's feeling or any of that. You both clearly get irritated by this. I don't think you should terminate your marriage after only 1 1/2 months in limbo. At least if all turns out to be hopeless in the end, you can say you did everything possible to keep your family together.


----------



## MEM2020

Paul,

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html

How much of "this" was going on before she told you she doesn't love you. 




Paulination said:


> So we went to the doctor today about the thyroid and as far as symptoms go, she only mentions not being able to lose weight. I chime in and tell doc "there are other things". Shes lost interest in all of her hobbies, no sex drive etc..the emotional side of hormonal imbalance and such so doc orders a bevy of tests which is what I wanted.
> 
> Get home, wife is bugged, I ask why and it is because I brought up the other stuff to doc. And BTW, she says she still has a sex drive but just doesn't want sex with me right now. I thought about this possibility so I positioned her vibrator in a way that it would be obvious if she used it over a month ago and it hasn't been touched.
> 
> So please help me clarify what I should do.
> 
> The situation:
> There is no EA or PA (I have thoroughly investigated)
> Wife is not happy, has lost something for me.
> She is a SAHM
> Says she doesn't want a divorce but needs time to work on her feelings.
> It has been 1 1/2 months.
> 
> Me, have adressed her concerns and been working on bettering myself (working out, reading books on marriage and No More Mr Nice Guy).
> 
> There was no overt action that preceded this and it was a total surprise to me.
> 
> My biggest problem I've been having is trying not to talk about it since it always gets ugly.
> 
> Her mom thinks I should just lay low and give her time. My wife thinks I should just give her time.
> 
> Is that the answer? Is a 180 the answer?
> 
> I'm am not going to live like this forever and I most certainly won't stay in a sexless marriage.
> 
> You guys have given me alot of great advice and it is time to take some of it so help bring it home again, what would you do in my shoes.


----------



## Paulination

MEM11363 said:


> Paul,
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html
> 
> How much of "this" was going on before she told you she doesn't love you.


She hasn't said she doesn't love me, that said, I am embarrased to say that this has been my relationship over the last few years to a T.

I really needed to read that. It clarifies everything. It even lessens the anger a little because it looks like I trained her to be this way. 

I took it for granted that she would never leave me because she has no job etc.... but she obviously believes the same thing in me so she can pull back and be cruel without the threat of me ever leaving.


----------



## MEM2020

Paul,
Sorry - I meant to say she told you "she wasn't 'in love' with you". Big difference. 

I have another post that will help you, but not until you get a handle on the "overheated" temperature in the house. 

A couple quick things. I believe it is VERY hard to directly get yourself to love someone less. It is doable, but it typically takes a long, long time and is miserable. However it IS possible to completely shift your focus away from someone. The best ways to do that near term:
1. Ramp up your work schedule. Yes thats right, be home less. Focus on things at work that you excel at and do more of them. 
2. Ramp up your exercise schedule. Ideally you would do this during the day so you get home even later. More work plus more exercise equals get home late most nights. 
3. Take your child out with you on the weekend. Do not invite her, tell her you need one on one time with your kid.
4. There ARE no emergencies she needs your help with. If you disagree with this, then agree on a protocol. If she has a REAL emergency and you two should agree on what that is: medical, urgent, car accident, etc. she texts you 911 with a once sentence description of what has happened. So when she starts to try to get your attention, and she will, wait until your next meal is OVER before responding and do it in text and be brief. Ideally tell her "having a busy day will get back to you later" and then wait until you get home, and if she is angry because you put her off, just tell her "long day, not up for anything other than a friendly conversation, going to bed now" and sleep in the other room. 
5. When home, be playful, friendly and fun to your CHILD, be polite and reserved with your W. Limit conversation to schedules and kid stuff and even then KEEP it SHORT
6. Do NOT get sucked into a relationship discussion. You are in NO STATE to have one. If she has something to say and can do so in a respectful manner, listen quietly and then say "anything else"? And go on about your day/night. 

For now stay the heck away from other women. If you can stick with this routine for 90 days you will either see real change or you will realize your marriage is likely ending. 

After you do this for a month, INCLUDING not responding every time she offers you a crumb to reassure herself you are still waiting for her to LET YOU RETURN TO KISSING HER A$$. BTW - that is a mutual problem, maybe even more yours than hers. 

No matter what do not tolerate disrespectful comments or treatment. If that starts to happen just give her a look of disdain (like there is something wrong with her) and shake your head as you walk away and go in another room and shut the door between you. Do NOT SPEAK when she is being disrespectful. You need to learn to use body language and facial expressions and silence and indifference or you will never fix this. 

Let me know when you have this part nailed and I will send you a detailed post on how to handle a very specific list of common bad behaviors.



Paulination said:


> She hasn't said she doesn't love me, that said, I am embarrased to say that this has been my relationship over the last few years to a T.
> 
> I really needed to read that. It clarifies everything. It even lessens the anger a little because it looks like I trained her to be this way.
> 
> I took it for granted that she would never leave me because she has no job etc.... but she obviously believes the same thing in me so she can pull back and be cruel without the threat of me ever leaving.


----------



## Paulination

I have a question, the dynamic in the relationship thermostat is it intentional on her side or subconscious? Does her cold side happen as innocently as my warm side did?

I did not set out to become this way it just happened. I come from a family of affluence, am college educated, good looking and make decent money but I still fell into a pattern over the past 4 years of exactly what the thermometer says.

If you could rewind the clock you would find a 21 year old women kissing the ground I walk on. I guess she stopped doing that and my reaction was to disproportianly react accordingly the other way. I have had more clarity over my situation tonight then at any point since this began. It makes so much sence and resonates so well with my experience that it has got to be correct.


----------



## MEM2020

Over time - she had moments where she simply needed a cooler temperature. That was not a "calculated" thing at all. Simply a hardwired preference. When she pulled back a "little" to cool off you quite naturally worked harder at showing her love, which made her ever more anxious and desirous of space. 

Her wanting a bit of space initially was not a ding on you, just a perference thing. If you had backed off and given her space, very likely she would have started feeling more desire to be with you in every sense of the word. 

Simple example from about a year ago. My W was unhappy about lots of stuff. She told me she needed some space. In a very 'non-vindictive" way I started scheduling long weekend visits to see friends I hadn't seen in a long time. All guys - all totally harmless. After my 3 trip in about 6 weeks she told me she missed me and she meant it. I went back to our "normal" schedule at that point. 

I told her during and after that period I was glad she told me she wanted/needed space. It was honest and it was important to her. And at that point in time it was also easy to fix.




Paulination said:


> I have a question, the dynamic in the relationship thermostat is it intentional on her side or subconscious? Does her cold side happen as innocently as my warm side did?
> 
> I did not set out to become this way it just happened. I come from a family of affluence, am college educated, good looking and make decent money but I still fell into a pattern over the past 4 years of exactly what the thermometer says.
> 
> If you could rewind the clock you would find a 21 year old women kissing the ground I walk on. I guess she stopped doing that and my reaction was to disproportianly react accordingly the other way. I have had more clarity over my situation tonight then at any point since this began. It makes so much sence and resonates so well with my experience that it has got to be correct.


----------



## ComicBookLady

I'm sorry that I didn't read all of the responses, so apologies if you've gotten this fixed already, but here's my opinion:

It sounds like you really love and care of your wife, and you want things fixed. I totally understand how you would now be feeling anger and I'm so sorry you are going through this. 

I do not agree that you should start playing "hardball" and do things like cutting off internet, and whatnot. To me, those seem petty actions, ones that do nothing but make the situation worse. You seem to want to make your wife to be appreciative for what she has, that's understandable. From your viewpoint she seems unaffected (I highly doubt she is) and you are the only one feeling awful. So under your viewpoint you feel she should at the very least appreciate the things you give her.

However, do you want your wife to appreciate the things you give her, or do you want your wife to love and respect you as your wife and partner once again? Rest assured, resorting to petty actions will only make her trust you less and cause resentment and anger, she will not appreciate you or her life more by doing those things.

To me it sounds like it could be a couple things. This is my first guess:

Your wife has been internally pushed away from years of miscommunication. She is not effectively feeling validated or heard by you. Even though you feel you really listen, men often skip the validation women need in favor of "fixing" the problems for them. This is miscommunication. Eventually over the years the woman feels unloved and uncared for. To make it worse, once children, work and daily routine enters the picture, there's less special nights between you two, you tend to forget to do the little things you used to do to make her feel special (little things go a LONG WAY with women) . 

I could go into more detail with this, but you should read Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus. The book explains that what women want more than anything is to feel "cherished" (on the other side, men want to feel "needed"). If women do not get that from their husband, they pull away over the years. She may have decided on this separation in an effort to get you to pursue her again, make her feel cherished and special like when you first met. She wants to feel like she matters to you. This is her attempt to spark you to finally see her pain and hopefully make you want to treat her special again. However, that does not work on men, so she isn't going to get what she wants. However if it is not this, then there's a chance the miscommunication between you two over the years has pushed her away too far away and her feeling for you are truly fading. If this is true, then (and only then) is divorce probably inevitable. But I am betting it's the former.

IF this is true (and really I have no idea if it is as I don't know you both, but it's my best guess as this happens a LOT in marriages) then it's up to you how to follow up. Do you have to put up with the separation? No, you can always walk away from your marriage. Do you want to save your marriage? Then you need to find a way to work with her to do so. And shutting off internet is not one of those things. 

My suggestions are to answer honestly and think about these things:

1. *Do you let your wife just TALK?* Really talk, with you listening, and not saying a word. Sometimes a woman needs this (and yes I say NEED, again read Men are from Mars, Women from Venus) Especially when she's upset. If you want to help her and make her feel validated, then truly let her talk and you listen for as long as she needs it. DON'T argue, even if she says something that makes you mad. Sit back, put your arm around her and really listen. And really you could try this today if you wanted. Maybe this is all she needs to get over whatever resentment and pain she's feeling towards you, and may move on with you past this separation.

Fair warning: what often happens is the woman will seem to get WORSE. She will get angrier, cry louder, get more upset. Do not react with anything other than love, let her get it out. Eventually she'll come back to herself, calm down and be okay. After that, not only is her stress and inner pain relieved, but she'll respect and appreciate you being there for her. You just gave her your undivided attention for as long as she needed it, you BET she feels cherished at this point! 

2. *Do you REALLY think she does nothing all day?* Because that's how you make it sound. She's a SAHM with 2 kids, I highly doubt she does nothing all day. Even then, this is the agreement you both came to, if you feel unfairness or resentment towards her staying home, and treat her like she does nothing, you bet she does NOT feel cherished. Try looking at what she DOES do instead of what she doesn't and appreciate it.

3. *When's the last time you did something nice for her?* Buying her a divorce fix it book does not count. *I* know what you did by getting the book is considerate and loving, but she doesn't see it that way. Again you were tapping into your manly "fix it" nature and gave her a fix it book in tough times. That's not _wrong_, but it's not what she needs. Try buying her flowers, or saying something nice instead, clean the house a little for her, send her a card.... anything that makes her feel special. And do it often. The little things count for women.

4.* Are you willing to try anything to save your marriage?* If yes, then you need to be willing to get over your feelings of entitlement and pride. You are the one working, but that does not make you better than her. She is your partner in this marriage and family. Right now she is hurting badly whether she shows it or not, or whether you agree with her methods or not, and she is not letting you in for whatever reason. You need to find a way to help, and nothing else should matter right now.

None of this is saying she's is doing nothing wrong, I am sure she is too, but right now I'm only thinking of things YOU could do to help. However I believe you both are in the miscommunication tango and need to figure things out fast to be able to fix things and move on 

Good luck, and sorry for the novel! Just want to help.


----------



## deejov

I didn't want to post this... as it may come across as too harsh.
But please take this as it is intended, as helpful and not critical.

I don't know your wife, but I would have taken all that you have done in the past few months as a bit controlling. Behavior changes in the past 1.5 months, and you are asking her to read books, go to counselling, and you even went with her to her dr's appt and spoke up. And she got mad about it. Almost like you demanded a reason, an answer, immediately. If she doesn't know the answer, you are providing it for her. 

Just my opinion from the other side of the fence.

The more you seem to push her, it seems that she is pulling away even more and maybe she really does need some space. To make her own decisions. 

Who wouldn't be frustrated? (I can easily see how these behavior changes would make a person upset) But keep a thought in mind.
You have offered her suggestions of how to fix her life.
Is it possible that she won't do them because you suggested them?


----------



## Paulination

Mrs. NotSureWhatToDo said:


> Good luck, and sorry for the novel! Just want to help.


I appreciate your help and to answer the questions:

1. *Do you let your wife just TALK?* 

I probably could improve on this but I thought I did. For now it is a little late. I have tried to get her to open up about this or anything else and she is tired of talking now.



2. *Do you REALLY think she does nothing all day?* 

Her schedule is like this: wakes up between 9 and 10. Feeds the three year old. Runs on the treadmill for one hour. Has lunch and watches the DVR. Picks up the 6 year old from school then helps him with his homework. Takes a shower. Spends the rest of her day on facebook and soccer forums until our evening shows come on. Goes to bed around 11 but doesn't sleep right away because she is back on FB. I take the 6 year old to school at 7:30 and work until 5, get home around 5:45. I do all of the housework inside and out besides the laundry. 

3. *When's the last time you did something nice for her?* 

For Valentines day I bought her a new laptop, a dozen roses, stuffed bear and chocolate. I got a card that probably had to shortest message in the history of VD cards. She did write "I Love You" inside so I was pretty geeked about that.

4.* Are you willing to try anything to save your marriage?* 

I am but not at the price of my manlyhood at this point. I gave that up unintentionally years ago by completely coddling her along in life and I feel I've lost her respect which is why she doesn't want sex anymore. IMO.


----------



## Paulination

deejov said:


> I don't know your wife, but I would have taken all that you have done in the past few months as a bit controlling. Behavior changes in the past 1.5 months, and you are asking her to read books, go to counselling, and you even went with her to her dr's appt and spoke up. And she got mad about it. Almost like you demanded a reason, an answer, immediately. If she doesn't know the answer, you are providing it for her.
> 
> Just my opinion from the other side of the fence.
> 
> The more you seem to push her, it seems that she is pulling away even more and maybe she really does need some space. To make her own decisions.
> 
> Who wouldn't be frustrated? (I can easily see how these behavior changes would make a person upset) But keep a thought in mind.
> You have offered her suggestions of how to fix her life.
> Is it possible that she won't do them because you suggested them?


I'm afraid I have played this thing completely wrong from the beginning. She said she wasn't happy and when pressed, said that I was too short temperred with the kids and drank a little too much. So that to me meant that I should be more leveled when it came speaking with my kids and to drink less. I did exactly that and will continue to do so as it has improved the environment in the home. 

Not long after she announces to me that she no longer has a sex drive and hasn't had one in awhile and has just been going through the motions. She also is having problems losing weight in spite of her best efforts so I add it all up and I thought maybe some of this can be attributed to her previous thyroid problem. I took her to the doctor because it was her first visit with him and I wanted to make sure she was honest about ALL of her symptoms (though I didn't tell her that this was the reason I was taking her).

Just as I predicted, she only mentions weight for which I spoke and told the doc about the sex drive and other symptoms. He decides to run a thourough set of tests to rule out everything. Pissed off that I told him about this stuff she now says she does have a sex drive just doesn't want to do it with me right now and here we are.

It is all a mess now. My first marriage failed partly because I was thick headed with my spouse and wouldn't back down on things (that and her infidelity).
The next time I get married I promised myself I would treat her like gold and now it looks like that decision will cost me this marriage.

I am hurt but she seems unaffected. I love her but she shows no love at all. The closer I try to bring her, the farther and more cruel she gets. 
This from a woman who's whole world SHE planned, and I implemented. I know she doesn't want to go back to work. I know she wants to stay home with the kids. It would kill her to lose her soccer hobbies and yet she is putting this alll on the line and breaking my heart for some reason she can't even articulate. Everyone who knows of our situation cannot believe she is behaving this way. Her own mom whom she is close to and talk about this is entirely in my corner because she can't find a reason, and her daughter can't articulate a reason to jeopardize her future and the happiness of the home and kids.
Theres no marital abuse, no infidelity, no child abuse, no drugs, no gambling NOTHING. Just a loving husband and two great kids.
That is why I thought this could be partly because of depression as a result of her underactive thyroid or depression by itself. She is risking everything and doesn't know why. She just knows that she lost her sex drive and "something is missing" between us. And she's conveyed that to me in cruel and demeaning ways.

If it isn't depression, then my only conclusion is that she has lost the respect for her man and from what I know, women don't like sex with someone they don't respect. A loss of respect would explain why she can't explain it. She's trying to find events (so was I) when in reality it is a state of mind as a result of being cared for to the extent that she was.
She is resistant to change because she feels no threat of actually losing anything at all. 
The only answer I can think of at this point is to take my balls back and completely change my interactions with her. I hope it isn't too late.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Paulination said:


> Her schedule is like this: wakes up between 9 and 10. Feeds the three year old. Runs on the treadmill for one hour. Has lunch and watches the DVR. Picks up the 6 year old from school then helps him with his homework. Takes a shower. Spends the rest of her day on facebook and soccer forums until our evening shows come on. Goes to bed around 11 but doesn't sleep right away because she is back on FB. I take the 6 year old to school at 7:30 and work until 5, get home around 5:45. I do all of the housework inside and out besides the laundry.


You have to stop this crap right now. This is not a husband and wife relationship, it is a lady of the house/servant relationship. I am not surprised she has no respect. Do what you need to do for yourself and your children, but stop doing anything for your wife.


----------



## deejov

I would agree that respect is an issue here. 

And I'm not a man, but from a woman's perspective, if you showed the anger in your attempts to regain respect, it wouldn't work for me. It would come off as punishment for not doing what you asked.

True space would be allowing her to fix her own life, while you do what you can do, fix yours. Hopefully the guys can help with that. Keep the anger out of it. It's not a punishment. It's a redirection of your energy. From fixing her to what do you want out of your life.


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## eagleclaw

*3. When's the last time you did something nice for her? 

For Valentines day I bought her a new laptop, a dozen roses, stuffed bear and chocolate. I got a card that probably had to shortest message in the history of VD cards. She did write "I Love You" inside so I was pretty geeked about that.*

I think this paragraph ties into everything everyone has said. It really says it all. You are chasing her at nausium, going overboard X 10, crowding her, clinging to her, doing most the housework, buying all the gifts, etc etc etc. 

Your that damn puppy that keeps bouncing in front of you, licking you, poking you, staring at you, dropping toys on your lap over and over and over until as cute and lovable as you are - you just want to scream and lock you outside for an hours break.

Serioulsy, You need to follow mem's advice. You need to reinvent you. You need to go back, and be the man you were when you started with her. 

If you do nothing, as of right now you are a lock to lose her.
Change, start today. Have your own life, your own interests your own hobbies, and quit gut checking everything with her. Invite her sometimes if you wish but do it anyways if she declines. 

Be a little selfish. Watch the movie YOU want to see. Leave some housework for her to do cause you have other things to do. (And let her know you expect her to do it) Don't be a pushover. 

If there was ever an example of killing her with kindness, this is it. next bday or holiday - do nothing for her or very little. If she questions why, just tell her your not feeling it. Your seperated... you forgot... whatever. Let her be disapointed. It will mean she has noticed your not bouncing in front of her trying to get her to pat your head.

P.S. - I'm not trying to be rude, I'm trying to illustrate to you what is going on so you can adjust. I have been guilty of some of this myself in the past. Seriously, owing this, changing this, and being yourself will pay you more dividends than anything else you can do.


----------



## ComicBookLady

Hi again! 



Paulination said:


> I appreciate your help and to answer the questions:
> 
> 1. *Do you let your wife just TALK?*
> 
> I probably could improve on this but I thought I did. For now it is a little late. I have tried to get her to open up about this or anything else and she is tired of talking now.


I bet if you kept trying and showed her you are there ONLY to listen and hear her, then she would open up  To me clearly your wife feels like talking to you is pointless, probably because she doesn't feel like her feelings matter to you or get through to you (as you say, you start talking but end up fighting, that is exhausting and eventually she would give up trying). So showing her that you are NOW here for her, no matter what she says, would make a huge difference.

I can tell it's not too late by the mere fact that she's still talking to you. When it's truly over she would have calmly delivered divorce papers to you with no emotion. She's still engaging with you on some level.. so maybe it's worth a try? If you choose to do this, just be READY to endure an onslaught of words you will hate and things you will want to point out, and debate. If you end up fighting then you didn't do it right. Sometimes things may not even make sense to you. To help her, you must be strong and not point out any of these things. Realize that a lot of things said are pent up, over exaggerated. Think of it as your wife expelling the poison keeping her this cold person, so she can then get back to normal.

Also to be clear that this is not saying you have to do this all the time, marriage is communication by both parties. However sometimes a woman needs to be heard, and to let things out, just like sometimes men often need space for a bit. Getting past this hurdle of coldness and silence is the first step towards healthy communication. This will be a difficult thing for you to endure for your marriage's sake. And no, relenting to your wife to listen to her no matter what is said does NOT make you less manly. On the contrary, it takes a strong person to endure it. And your wife will take notice.




> 2. *Do you REALLY think she does nothing all day?*
> 
> Her schedule is like this: wakes up between 9 and 10. Feeds the three year old. Runs on the treadmill for one hour. Has lunch and watches the DVR. Picks up the 6 year old from school then helps him with his homework. Takes a shower. Spends the rest of her day on facebook and soccer forums until our evening shows come on. Goes to bed around 11 but doesn't sleep right away because she is back on FB. I take the 6 year old to school at 7:30 and work until 5, get home around 5:45. I do all of the housework inside and out besides the laundry.


Thank you for breaking that down  If she indeed does nothing in the evening than it seems she's pulling away from her life. Facebook is a type of escapism. She's getting something from there that she's not getting from home. As she's talking with friends, it's probably a place where she's "heard" and validated and gets attention from people who feels like she matters. Which would play into the theory that she's not feeling that at home (not saying you're NOT trying to make her feel that way, but your methods may not be the exact thing she as a different person needs).

I know you are hurt, and you are resenting her lifestyle, but my advice would be to get rid of this "keeping score" of who does what, at least until things are better, then if you're still unhappy with the level of responsibilities between you two, discuss them healthily with your wife, who hopefully by then has bounced back to her old self and is taking more on by herself.

Something I read in one of the books is that a woman cannot give of herself fully unless she feels fulfilled (or cherished). That includes housework, loving you, and everything else. She's not doing it on purpose, but it this is indeed true, then helping her feel cherished should help fix some of your complaints about your lifestyles.



> 3. *When's the last time you did something nice for her?*
> 
> For Valentines day I bought her a new laptop, a dozen roses, stuffed bear and chocolate. I got a card that probably had to shortest message in the history of VD cards. She did write "I Love You" inside so I was pretty geeked about that.


Awww  That IS incredibly sweet!! And may I point out, that she DID respond to it.

However you must move on past Valentine's Day, do something nice and _thoughtful_ often (try for once a day, just something small). Even pointing out how gorgeous she is and making a big deal of it counts. Or if you notice that she's on Facebook all the time, make her computer area nice ( I know that particular thing would kill you as you hate her being on Facebook, but I promise you, showing her support like that even if you don't agree is something she'll notice).

I do not agree with others saying you're doing too much. I think you are trying, yes, which is wonderful of you, but maybe not in quite the right ways. 



> 4.* Are you willing to try anything to save your marriage?*
> 
> I am but not at the price of my manlyhood at this point. I gave that up unintentionally years ago by completely coddling her along in life and I feel I've lost her respect which is why she doesn't want sex anymore. IMO.


Thank you for your opinion  I can sense the resentment and anger you feel, and I'm so sorry you feel that you've given up your manlyhood years ago. To a man that is a very important sense of self.

If I may say, that to me, you have NOT given up your manlyhood, in fact you have become moreso a man than most. You have taken care of your family, both financially and in the household, you are trying to take care of your wife even though you don't agree with her methods, you are on here trying to understand her, and you're opening yourself up in the process (something else difficult for men). You are indeed more of a man, not less. It takes a strong strong person to move past their pride to give the other person what they need. I understand that you've reached the end of your rope, and that's okay. However consider that to your wife this manliness is not just taking care of house and home, it's taking care of her internally. 

Believe me it takes a strooooong man to try and get through the complicated nature that is woman and try to help  So you really taking a step back, pushing aside your anger and resentments one more time, and going back into this with the understanding that you may have to try different methods than you're used to, may solve this for you. 

But it's always your choice. If your resentment is too much, if anger is too much to cope with, then maybe moving on is the best way for both of you. But in my opinion based on your posts, and what you've said about your wife, I do not think it's too late


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Mrs. NotSureWhatToDo said:


> Thank you for breaking that down  If she indeed does nothing in the evening than it seems she's pulling away from her life. Facebook is a type of escapism. She's getting something from there that she's not getting from home. As she's talking with friends, it's probably a place where she's "heard" and validated and gets attention from people who feels like she matters. Which would play into the theory that she's not feeling that at home (not saying you're NOT trying to make her feel that way, but your methods may not be the exact thing she as a different person needs).
> 
> I know you are hurt, and you are resenting her lifestyle, but my advice would be to get rid of this "keeping score" of who does what, at least until things are better, then if you're still unhappy with the level of responsibilities between you two, discuss them healthily with your wife, who hopefully by then has bounced back to her old self and is taking more on by herself.
> 
> Something I read in one of the books is that a woman cannot give of herself fully unless she feels fulfilled (or cherished). That includes housework, loving you, and everything else. She's not doing it on purpose, but it this is indeed true, then helping her feel cherished should help fix some of your complaints about your lifestyles.


Sorry, but I have to disagree. She does virtually nothing, he comes home from work and does all the chores, and the advice is to do more? She is treating him as a servent. She needs to be given the opportunity to contribute as an equal. To do otherwise is prioritizing her over him. Equal partnership fosters respect. This current arrangement does not.



> Awww  That IS incredibly sweet!! And may I point out, that she DID respond to it.
> 
> However you must move on past Valentine's Day, do something nice and _thoughtful_ often (try for once a day, just something small). Even pointing out how gorgeous she is and making a big deal of it counts. Or if you notice that she's on Facebook all the time, make her computer area nice ( I know that particular thing would kill you as you hate her being on Facebook, but I promise you, showing her support like that even if you don't agree is something she'll notice).
> 
> I do not agree with others saying you're doing too much. I think you are trying, yes, which is wonderful of you, but maybe not in quite the right ways.


While I agree that he needs to meet her love languages, this suggestion will make it worse. She clearly does not appreciate what he does for her, so why have him do more? This will smother her even more. She is running away from him, and doing more of this will cause her to run more. And don't even get me started on the idea of making it easier for her to slack off on Facebook.



> Thank you for your opinion  I can sense the resentment and anger you feel, and I'm so sorry you feel that you've given up your manlyhood years ago. To a man that is a very important sense of self.
> 
> If I may say, that to me, you have NOT given up your manlyhood, in fact you have become moreso a man than most. You have taken care of your family, both financially and in the household, you are trying to take care of your wife even though you don't agree with her methods, you are on here trying to understand her, and you're opening yourself up in the process (something else difficult for men). You are indeed more of a man, not less. It takes a strong strong person to move past their pride to give the other person what they need. I understand that you've reached the end of your rope, and that's okay. However consider that to your wife this manliness is not just taking care of house and home, it's taking care of her internally.
> 
> Believe me it takes a strooooong man to try and get through the complicated nature that is woman and try to help  So you really taking a step back, pushing aside your anger and resentments one more time, and going back into this with the understanding that you may have to try different methods than you're used to, may solve this for you.
> 
> But it's always your choice. If your resentment is too much, if anger is too much to cope with, then maybe moving on is the best way for both of you. But in my opinion based on your posts, and what you've said about your wife, I do not think it's too late


This is great advice to be a doormat. Give in more to her and put her needs over your own. Follow it at your peril.


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## Paulination

The thing with the schedule never really bothered me too much. I was happy that she was able to spend her day the way she wanted to which was largely unincumbered and at her disposal and on my dime.

Facebook, farmville etc.. never really bothered me either because she is a SAHM and her socialization is limited. 

What bothers me is that as a provider, I have met all of her needs financially, emotionally (as far as I knew), physically etc...and somehow I am in this position.

I thought we were happy up until 1 1/2 months ago. We had our own hobbies (true mine are more home based so I don't get out much). We spent most early evening in the room together with her scrapbooking and me on the bed playing a game, all the while talking back and forth. We had this nice thing I thought and then BOOM, she stops her scrapbooking, says she's unhappy and has no sex drive. I would have sworn she was having a PA or EA but I've checked all of that and there is nothing.

She speaks ambivolently now in reference to the marriage. I'll say "Are we going to work on our marriage?" and she'll say "we'll try" or I'll say "Do you want a divorce/" and she'll say "No, but I don't know what I want". Eveything leaves the door open for the worse case scenario.

It is almost like a power play. She can keep me around while she treats me crappy by keeping me on the edge by purposely leaving the D possibility on the table knowing I don't want that.


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## ComicBookLady

Yep another long post from me!  Sorry in advance for the wordy-ness



Paulination said:


> The thing with the schedule never really bothered me too much. I was happy that she was able to spend her day the way she wanted to which was largely unincumbered and at her disposal and on my dime.


I think you are a good husband for just being happy for her being able to spend her day in a way that makes her happy.

I mean no disrespect or insult by saying this at all, but I feel that the mere fact you face the family income as "yours" may not be a helpful way of thinking. I get the sense you think she "owes" you for your work. Yes you are literally the one who makes the money, but that was decision by you both of you to have one work and one stay at home. So really, in a marriage you're partners so the money is both of yours despite who makes it. I feel she is not meeting your need of acknowledging your hard work. It's a common mistake women make. So that's definitely something she needs to work on, but you'll have to make that need of yours known to her in the right way. 

My own husband recently did something similar. He felt I wasn't acknowledging him enough, in which I felt I was, but after he talked to me I realized it wasn't quite in the way he wanted, and apparently he had felt this way for years. So now I go out of my way to try and show him my acknowledgment. It really did help in that area of our marriage, he even noted to me he felt better recently. So once you two are communicating again, maybe you could bring this are of your need up to her.



> Facebook, farmville etc.. never really bothered me either because she is a SAHM and her socialization is limited.


Again you are so understanding  And I hope you don't mix up understanding with "doormat" as others try to make it out to be. There's nothing wrong with having an understanding, caring frame of mind when it comes to your spouse. You are more the stronger by continually giving that to her when you feel so much resentment.



> What bothers me is that as a provider, I have met all of her needs financially, emotionally (as far as I knew), physically etc...and somehow I am in this position.


Yes, as I mentioned above I feel she should be acknowledging you more for what you do. (I mentioned before, that men need to feel "needed" or acknowledged often, same as a women needs to feel cherished) so she is also not meeting your basic need in this marriage.





> I thought we were happy up until 1 1/2 months ago. We had our own hobbies (true mine are more home based so I don't get out much). We spent most early evening in the room together with her scrapbooking and me on the bed playing a game, all the while talking back and forth. We had this nice thing I thought and then BOOM, she stops her scrapbooking, says she's unhappy and has no sex drive. I would have sworn she was having a PA or EA but I've checked all of that and there is nothing.


Yes, as she says something is missing for her, maybe she doesn't feel cherished, maybe she is trying to get you to pursue her again (in which this is not the way to do it, really) She wants that excitement with you again. However as it seems you two cannot communicate well she hasn't been able to get it across to you.

Was it truly out of nowhere this happened? There was no fight, or event that happened around this time?



> She speaks ambivolently now in reference to the marriage. I'll say "Are we going to work on our marriage?" and she'll say "we'll try" or I'll say "Do you want a divorce/" and she'll say "No, but I don't know what I want". Eveything leaves the door open for the worse case scenario.


Yeah... seems to me she does NOT want to divorce you, she loves you, but is trying to get her needs met by putting in this situation. I believe she's trying to startle you into seeing that her needs are important, and to get you to finally listen. Again, not the right way to go about it. But for you, it's your choice if you love her enough to be the first one to go in and help pull her back to a position where you can both communicate effectively. I heavily suggest that "letting her talk" event if you can make it happen. It can't hurt anyway, and you never know, it may make things known to you that you could only guess at before.



> It is almost like a power play. She can keep me around while she treats me crappy by keeping me on the edge by purposely leaving the D possibility on the table knowing I don't want that.


Maybe, but I don't think she even knows how crappy you feel, or that you're hurting so bad, because SHE is feeling crappy and hurting too. I do feel like she's using the big "D" as a way to make you see her needs, to listen finally. But I truly don't feel it's a way to gain power, I believe it's something she's doing out of desperation, and I don't think SHE even knows why she's doing it.

I don't know you or your wife personally, so I could be waaaay off base, all of my posts and opinions are based off of years of research that I've done for my own marriage, and I'm trying to relay some of it for your consideration in case it may help, but I could be totally wrong. I just had to speak up because I saw so many try and tell you that you are a doormat, you are giving too much, you need to take things from her. None of that is true. You are acting in the most respectable, strong way, and are in fact being a good husband in the best way you know how. Doing all you can, sometimes bending over backwards to be there for your wife, and pull her back from whatever slump she's gotten herself into is NOT being weak. it takes the strongest person imaginable to power through something like this, going against resentment to give more. At least if things do end in divorce, you REALLY know you tried everything you could to fix it.

I feel in one sentence this situation is the result of miscommunication between both of you, and all it takes is a little understanding on both parts to fix it. Please read Men are from Mars, Women from Venus! It's an older book but it has a lot of truth in it. Also my husband recommends the Eric Thomas' "Thank God I'm Married" on YouTube, said it really opened his eyes to my womanly craziness


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## Paulination

Mrs. NSWTD, I love your enthusiasm and optimistic outlook of my situation but I feel the last thing she'll want is to communicate more, or hear about my needs at the moment. She is completely self absorbed in what she feels and could care less about my take on things.

There was no fight, there was no anything except her looking sad and me probing. Ofcourse if you ask her she'll tell you that she has been trying to change certain things in me for the last four years but I don't see it that way.

I have told her that I hear her loud and clear and if I didn't get it then, I do know. I have made said changes since this began and it hasn't mattered yet.

I don't know what her plan is, no job, no place to go etc.... I hate throwing that out there but for us to get a divorced so entrenched the way we are makes no sense. If she thinks she's miserable now, wait until she's working 9 - 5 around being a mom and finally taking care of a household of her own. I wish she would just work on it with me.

I'm reading books, I'm implementing what she says bothers her, I'm working out (not fat, just toning up), I'm doing everything while she peruses facebook and soccer forums. I'm also working 40+ hours with head in a freakin' cloud thinking about this all day while I pretend I'm not hurt.


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## Hopefull363

Paulination,

Sounds like she just might need to be jolted out of her fog. Maybe you can suggest a separation. She won't be able to spend her days lost in facebook then. She'll have to come back to reality and then face it. Right now she's tuning you and reality out. Hopefully when she comes back to reality she'll open up. Good Luck, I keep hoping that you'll pop in with a good update.


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## MEM2020

Paul,
I think you are a bit confused. 

You believe: Her life without you will suck and she should get her head out of the clouds and be nice to you, the guy who pays for everything. 

She believes: Deep down where it matters she believes you are a needy little boy, not a man. And as such that you CAN'T leave her. That's right, she believes you are UNABLE to leave her. One benefit of a 180 is it conveys through ACTIONS that you are ready, willing and ABLE to leave your partner. 

There is a guy on here, he had this non-stop series of "talks" with his wife. These are the ones where the HD partner tells the LD partner how much the LD partners sexual refusals, cold behavior, etc. are hurting them. As if the LD partner didn't know. Anyhow this fellow kept "telling her": no sex = no marriage. Thing is he is now back on here, 2+ years into it, still totally sexless and his new line is: "I made a commitment for life and I am going to honor it". 

Hmmmm. I warned this guy about his bluster. I told him he either needed to show her he was serious by his actions or he would just make things worse. Oh well. 

BTW: During a period of time when he claimed he was "getting tough", he was getting up at 5 AM to make her breakfast every day!!!! Ok then. I guess we all have different definitions of tough....






Paulination said:


> Mrs. NSWTD, I love your enthusiasm and optimistic outlook of my situation but I feel the last thing she'll want is to communicate more, or hear about my needs at the moment. She is completely self absorbed in what she feels and could care less about my take on things.
> 
> There was no fight, there was no anything except her looking sad and me probing. Ofcourse if you ask her she'll tell you that she has been trying to change certain things in me for the last four years but I don't see it that way.
> 
> I have told her that I hear her loud and clear and if I didn't get it then, I do know. I have made said changes since this began and it hasn't mattered yet.
> 
> I don't know what her plan is, no job, no place to go etc.... I hate throwing that out there but for us to get a divorced so entrenched the way we are makes no sense. If she thinks she's miserable now, wait until she's working 9 - 5 around being a mom and finally taking care of a household of her own. I wish she would just work on it with me.
> 
> I'm reading books, I'm implementing what she says bothers her, I'm working out (not fat, just toning up), I'm doing everything while she peruses facebook and soccer forums. I'm also working 40+ hours with head in a freakin' cloud thinking about this all day while I pretend I'm not hurt.


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## Paulination

MEM11363 said:


> Paul,
> One benefit of a 180 is it conveys through ACTIONS that you are ready, willing and ABLE to leave your partner.


So I'm confused on how to act. I read that you are to appear happy, content and confident but doesn't that look like you are happy with the situation?

I came home tonight and acted kind of indifferent and she took it as grumpy which just reinforced her complaint. I am confused.


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## ComicBookLady

Paulination said:


> Mrs. NSWTD, I love your enthusiasm and optimistic outlook of my situation but I feel the last thing she'll want is to communicate more, or hear about my needs at the moment. She is completely self absorbed in what she feels and could care less about my take on things.


Thank you, I just wish I did have the answers for you 

Just to clarify what I said earlier, I don't mean _more _communication, I mean _better_. IF my theory is the correct one, _now_ is not the time to talk about your feelings and opinions. Now is the time to listen and do only that, as least for this initial conversation. Is it completely fair for you? No, but sometimes to reach a goal you need to do whatever it takes to get there, especially if your wife & marriage is worth the trouble and effort. It takes a strong person to preserver through tough things, pain and unfairness to obtain an important goal. In this case what you could win is your caring loving wife back.

I see what people mean by 180's, but it may only make things much worse.

Imagine being a woman who believes in her heart her husband doesn't care about her, her feelings, really think she matters to him. Now have that husband do a 180 on top of that, become more harsh and pull away further. It would only reinforce her feelings and make her want to truly think about divorce.



> There was no fight, there was no anything except her looking sad and me probing. Ofcourse if you ask her she'll tell you that she has been trying to change certain things in me for the last four years but I don't see it that way.


If I may ask (and it's okay if it's too personal) what things has she mentioned she'd want to change?



> I don't know what her plan is, no job, no place to go etc.... I hate throwing that out there but for us to get a divorced so entrenched the way we are makes no sense. If she thinks she's miserable now, wait until she's working 9 - 5 around being a mom and finally taking care of a household of her own. I wish she would just work on it with me.


I think it's very sweet you are thinking of her beyond her life with you, concerned about what would happen to her. Just to point out, that's incredibly good husband thinking that proves you truly do care for her.

Also, she's probably not thinking about that stuff right now. I don't think she intends to divorce you truly. I believe she's trying to get your attention, which again is not the best way to go about it. 



> I'm reading books, I'm implementing what she says bothers her, I'm working out (not fat, just toning up), I'm doing everything while she peruses facebook and soccer forums. I'm also working 40+ hours with head in a freakin' cloud thinking about this all day while I pretend I'm not hurt.


Like I said, try just letting her talk AT you for awhile, without interrupting, and see what comes out, no matter how ugly. You may find that you have not indeed changed everything like you though you did. She may let you know of a problem you didn't even know about, and you may find it's not even YOU! It's worth a try. Just be there for her, look at her caringly, and let her gush it all out. Truly a lot of women realize the true source of their problems during these rants, so it helps her figure things out as well.

My suggestion for next time you see her, instead of acting indifferent, act truly happy to see her. Give her a passionate kiss and say she's beautiful (and really try to show her with your eyes so she knows you mean it.... we women are a perceptive bunch  ) And see what happens !


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## Chaparral

Paulination said:


> So I'm confused on how to act. I read that you are to appear happy, content and confident but doesn't that look like you are happy with the situation?
> 
> I came home tonight and acted kind of indifferent and she took it as grumpy which just reinforced her complaint. I am confused.


It doesn't work overnight. 

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.


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## Chaparral

"Imagine being a woman who believes in her heart her husband doesn't care about her, her feelings, really think she matters to him. Now have that husband do a 180 on top of that, become more harsh and pull away further. It would only reinforce her feelings and make her want to truly think about divorce."

Being harsh is not in the 180


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## Chaparral

The 180
April 15 2011 at 8:48 AM Ami (Login Amistandingstill)
Healing Moderator 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So many on here are at a loss at what to do with a WS who is
fence sitting, cake-eating, ignoring boundaries, still seeing and/or contacting the other person, etc...

Many BS's are urged to go No Contact with their WS after ALL ELSE has failed.


This 180 list may help.
--------------------------


For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.


2 things to think about if you do this:

1) You have to do the 180 list NOT to be manipulative but because it's the right thing to do for you. You have to heal from this experience. You have to back off for your own sanity now. You have to have a plan and know that you will be a better person with or without them after all is said and done -- that you will live and learn and move on no matter what. So you have to be geniune when you follow these ideas, rather than faking it and being insincere because your only goal is to get them back. That's not what you want to do. Having a certain person as our spouse is not a need, it's a want. When I wrote down a list of all the definite needs in my life, I realized that almost everything beyond food, clothing and shelter is a want. 10 seconds after I looked at the list, I stopped making decisions based on emotion. That's when I realized that my wanting to have her was causing me to beg and plead for her to come back. That was driving her away more so I stopped doing it immediately. In doing my own version of the 180 list I could tell nearly an immediate change in her behavior.

2) Realize that when your spouse sees your new attitude they are very likely to be a little jealous or at least have some curiosity about what's going on in your life to cause this change. However, they very well may react the same way towards you for some time (especially if they read books or go to message boards also). REALIZE that this tactic can also work simultaneously on you if the spouse begins to likewise. Be aware of it and plan to have your own feelings of jealousy and curiosity in advance. However, like with #1 above, if you're doing the 180 list to better yourself and everyone involved, then it will matter less what they are doing.


----------



## deejov

Out of curiousity, you mention that she says she has been trying to change things in you for the past 4 years. And now you are doing them.

So what is she resentful about? Is she looking for an apology or just time to see the changes are sticking?


I'm not sure if the 180 applies if your spouse is resentful about something that has been going on for 4 years. If it does.... good luck on your journey.


----------



## eagleclaw

Paulination said:


> So I'm confused on how to act. I read that you are to appear happy, content and confident but doesn't that look like you are happy with the situation?
> 
> I came home tonight and acted kind of indifferent and she took it as grumpy which just reinforced her complaint. I am confused.


okay, first tip. Quit judging and measuring your actions based on her response. YOU be YOU. If your going to be indifferent and independent, it doesn't matter if she likes it. That's the point. And if you are doing this, the end goal is that SHE DOES NOTICE, DOES NOT LIKE IT, and decides to change her behaviour in the hopes to change your behaviour.

Your not being mean, or disrespectful. Your just doing your own thing and being indifferent to her. SHE has moved away, SHE has asked for space, SHE is unsure, SHE want the seperation.

That's her choice. And she doesn't care that you don't like it.

So do your thing, and quit caring how she interprets it. You WANT her to start thinking and trying to figure you out.


----------



## Hicks

Here behavior could be a natural progressoin... You give give give while she take take takes.... Now, she has to up the ante to get the same emotional high of watching herself dominate her man. Sorry to be harsh but many very giving men wind up divorced for this reason. To figure out how to act, what would you advise your best friend in this situation?


----------



## Paulination

deejov said:


> So what is she resentful about? Is she looking for an apology or just time to see the changes are sticking?


There are two specific things she listed. 1) She thinks I am too "snappy" with the kids (ages 3 and 6) and she thinks I "drink a little too much".

She has brought these two things up periodically but it is always in the context of an event where I snapped at the kids or lets say I fell a sleep during a show (supposedly because I drank too much).

The problem I have is I didn't see these things as the problem she saw them as and quite frankly, the only time she mentioned them was when she was crabby and looking for something to complain about (IMO).

I don't just "snap" at the kids and I never hit them. Sometimes they get defiant or won't listen or won't answer a direct question (hemming and hawing while looking for an answer) and I up the ante by raising my voice and being very direct. I understand they are just kids and it is never my first reaction to yell but sometimes you have to be firm, even with a six and three year old. Sometimes she appreciates it when I take contrrol of the situation and other times when she is in a bad mood it pisses her off. These are the times she is referring to but she doesn't see it that way.

As for the drinking, I have my own self imposed rules. Never before 7 and always in moderation. I work hard and it helps me relax. period. She drinks as well (once again in moderation). There are times when I will fall asleep during a show and she gets pissed about it. But it is not because I am drunk, it is because I am TIRED from work. It would especially piss her off when I would ask her what happened in the show that I missed because I fell asleep so I stopped asking a long time ago. She has no idea what that means anymore. She sleeps until 9:30 or 10 or until my daughter bugs her enough. 

She also re-creates conversations for me that we supposedly had when I was "drunk" and accuses me of promises, or saying mean things that I don't recall. I frankly don't believe her that these events actually occur because I wasn't drunk, I simply fell asleep.

These are the two issues she points to. The only issues she points to. She says that they have been going on for four years and that has now cost me a portion of her feelings.
That conversation took place 1 1/2 months ago. I have forced myself to be patient with the kids at all times and have limited my drinking. I even offered to stop drinking completely but only if she was willing to outline what she planned to do to help the marriage. She has done nothing and does not have a plan. There is something elso going on here. An X factor that I don't know about and maybe she doesn't either.

I asked her if she was cheating on me because it was the only thing that made any sense. She said no and I went undercover and thoroughly investigate it and there is nothing. Because I was suspicious, she became suspicious and she went through two years of texts on my phone after I went to bed. She found nothing more than an accidental text I got from a "Jackie" two years ago that said "I love you" in it. I was obviously not the intended recipient so I thought nothing of it. She brought this up and I explained it to her but she still didn't believe it. I offered to call the number but she didn't want me to so I simply texted back and said "I just noticed I recieved this awhile back, who are you?" No response yet. I didn't mind her going through my phone necessarily but I was really curious if she would let me go through hers. So last night (this is what started everything) I asked her if she would let me and without hesitation she grabs the phone and tosses it to me and say "knock yourself out". She even offerred to show me how to navigate it. I'm at a loss as to what is going on in my marriage.

That is why I considered depression. I thought maybe she feels depressed and is looking for something to pin it on and this is all she could point to because otherwise, her life is rosy.

(Big breath).....anyways I think I really screwed up last night because we got into a conversation about it (which I strongly tried to resist doing) and I broke down. I sobbed like a pathetic b**ch and probably took three steps backwards on the manhood scale. She was sympathetic which isn't what I was looking for. I just lost control of my emotions and removed myself from the room to compose myself. I then returned and went to bed.

Today I woke up numb. I don't care anymore what happens. Leave, don't leave. I am powerless to do anything about it so I don't care.


----------



## deejov

I'm so sorry things are not going well.

Understand that I only see the side you have written, which is that she has talked to you for 4 years about things that bother you, and you say they are not a problem and don't agree with it. Thus, it's just not true.

She is talking, you are not listening. 
You are only offering to change if she does x, y, z for the marriage.
Why are there conditions to you being the better person\husband \father she is asking for? 

This is what resentment is all about. Refusal to consider what your partner needs, dismissing it, or demanding something in return. 

I'm not saying roll over here and change religions.
Just try to put yourself in her shoes, consider her needs, and consider doing it just because you love her. Tell her that. 
She needs to wipe the slate clean with you, tell each other you forgive, forget the past, focus on tomorrow and just being NICER to each other. Listen to her. Don't dismiss it. 

I will say that a similar thing happened to me.
I made my needs \ requests very clear. Took a few tries. They were dismissed. Similar to your response. He doesn't see it as a problem, therefore there is no 'need'. Meaning it's not a need for HIM, and that was taken as pure refusal. You don't care about me. 

We are getting divorced.


----------



## abandonedcompletely

deejov said:


> I'm so sorry things are not going well.
> 
> Understand that I only see the side you have written, which is that she has talked to you for 4 years about things that bother you, and you say they are not a problem and don't agree with it. Thus, it's just not true.
> 
> She is talking, you are not listening.
> You are only offering to change if she does x, y, z for the marriage.
> Why are there conditions to you being the better person\husband \father she is asking for?
> 
> This is what resentment is all about. Refusal to consider what your partner needs, dismissing it, or demanding something in return.
> 
> I'm not saying roll over here and change religions.
> Just try to put yourself in her shoes, consider her needs, and consider doing it just because you love her. Tell her that.
> She needs to wipe the slate clean with you, tell each other you forgive, forget the past, focus on tomorrow and just being NICER to each other. Listen to her. Don't dismiss it.
> 
> I will say that a similar thing happened to me.
> I made my needs \ requests very clear. Took a few tries. They were dismissed. Similar to your response. He doesn't see it as a problem, therefore there is no 'need'. Meaning it's not a need for HIM, and that was taken as pure refusal. You don't care about me.
> 
> We are getting divorced.


I agree with your post.

His wife did tell him, but because it's not a problem for him, nor important, he's dismissing it.

No one likes to be dismissed and I'm sure the wife has realized her feelings on those two issues are not important to her husband.

My husband did the same thing. I've told him for years I was unhappy and why. I found out that he's been dismissing my feelings for years and placating me. Now, I'm leaving when I'm able. 

Dismissing someone's feeling, to me, it blatant disrespect


----------



## Paulination

abandonedcompletely said:


> I agree with your post.
> 
> His wife did tell him, but because it's not a problem for him, nor important, he's dismissing it.
> 
> No one likes to be dismissed and I'm sure the wife has realized her feelings on those two issues are not important to her husband.
> 
> My husband did the same thing. I've told him for years I was unhappy and why. I found out that he's been dismissing my feelings for years and placating me. Now, I'm leaving when I'm able.
> 
> Dismissing someone's feeling, to me, it blatant disrespect


I WAS dismissing it but have stopped as soon as she said "look, I'm unhappy" unhappy about what? "unhappy about A and B". The way she said it this time really got me and I apologized for not listening in the past, let her know that I hear her loud and clear, and took immediate action and stopped the behaviors 1 1/2 months ago.

I still don't see those complaints of hers as problems except she does which makes them a problem. I get that now. Why am I still getting hit with "I'm not happy" 45 days later?


----------



## A Bit Much

Paulination said:


> I WAS dismissing it but have stopped as soon as she said "look, I'm unhappy" unhappy about what? "unhappy about A and B". The way she said it this time really got me and I apologized for not listening in the past, let her know that I hear her loud and clear, and took immediate action and stopped the behaviors 1 1/2 months ago.
> 
> I still don't see those complaints of hers as problems except she does which makes them a problem. I get that now. *Why am I still getting hit with "I'm not happy" 45 days later?*


Because you can't undo/take away the hurt that she's been feeling for 4 years in 6 weeks. Sometimes I'm sorry isn't enough. Especially if the resentment is as long and deep as hers.

It's going to take her more time.


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## Paulination

deejov said:


> .
> You are only offering to change if she does x, y, z for the marriage.
> Why are there conditions to you being the better person\husband \father she is asking for?


The only condition I said went something like this:

"Babe, I have completely turned around my interactions with the kids and cut back on the drinking a month ago but you are still unhappy. I've been doing things to make our marriage stronger but you don't seem willing to do anything. Heck I'll quite drinking entirely if it bothers you but I need you to work on this from your end as well"

My conversation with her was close to that verbatim. That was 2 weeks ago and still nothing. That is why the 180 suggestion keeps coming up.


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## deejov

Trust. Time. Forgiveness. How does one help your partner get over resentment? Advice?


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## A Bit Much

Time is what it takes. And consistency. And even after that sometimes the resentment is still there simmering under the surface. There are no guarantees that what you do will turn it all around. The offended person has to make the decison every day to stay and work on getting past the hurt.


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## Broncos Fan

Paulination said:


> The only condition I said went something like this:
> 
> "Babe, I have completely turned around my interactions with the kids and cut back on the drinking a month ago but you are still unhappy. I've been doing things to make our marriage stronger but you don't seem willing to do anything. Heck I'll quite drinking entirely if it bothers you but I need you to work on this from your end as well"
> 
> My conversation with her was close to that verbatim. That was 2 weeks ago and still nothing. That is why the 180 suggestion keeps coming up.


I'm no expert of course but I've followed your thread. I think maybe you need to give it more time. If she was feeling like you were being snappish and maybe drinking a little too much, then you can't suddenly turn that feeling around in her by going at her strongly with your expectations over the course of 6 weeks. It's both too little time for her to see you've changed, and too much time for her to learn to accept that you expect her to change as well. In other words, she just sees you going at her for weeks and this just reinforces her negative perception of you.

That being said, my advice has only to do with her feelings and your expectations of her reaction to you. I don't think that she's right to expect you to deal with an in-home separation or whatever you're attempting. No one could handle that and you shouldn't either. But whatever choice you make, it's going to take more time and patience for her to see your changes and understand you expect her to make some as well. Good luck with whatever you choose.


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## Sawney Beane

deejov said:


> Trust. Time. Forgiveness. How does one help your partner get over resentment? Advice?


You can't. They have to really want to first. Unless they want to, nothing you do is going to be worth a damn. You can support them once they make the decision, but some people would rather be "right" than happy.


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## Paulination

I'm frustrated. Why does my wife describe our situation to her FB friend in a different way then reality.

Tonight:

Friend: "anything better?"
wife: "eh, not really"
friend: "you sound concerned"
wife: "I know I should be but I am so frustrated. He wants to talk about it all of the time but I want space"
friend: "yeah they say they'll give it to you but they never do. I told Kirk that but he didn't listen and now he's divorced. Just sayin'"

They then go on to chat about "kirks" situation and stop talking about ours. I'm frustrated because I have given her as much space as she wants as far as I can tell. I have been working later, I normally play an hour on the PS 3 and I have stopped doing that because it would mean us being in the same room. I even pointed that out and she said "I never asked you not to be in here".

I have talked about the situation with her but it starts mutually with something she says. It then progresses into something ugly but the last time that happened was Monday. I am specificaly avoiding the topic of us even though she says things every so often that could easily be interpreted as a conversation starter.

I usually take a half day on Fridays and I specifically asked her in a genuine non-threatening way if she would prefer to have the afternoon to herself with our little girl and she said no, she wants me to take the half day (she said our daughter enjoys it when I come home).

Things seemed wierd today (friday) so after we picked up our son from school I told my wife I was going out for a while and she asked me why and I just said I needed to think and I left. I got my head on straight and came home smiling. She took our daughter to soccer practice and I took our son to baseball.

I have been home now for over an hour and a half and have done nothing more than say hi and have kept to myself in a different room. HOW AM I SMOTHERING HER!!!!

Why does she say things to her friend that just isn't true?


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## deejov

Sorry, dude.
Only thing I can say is that as a woman... I would be feeling like this:
She has the issue with you. She will talk to you when she is ready and willing to have a real discussion and turn it around. Not when you bring it up. Does that make sense? And she might have been referrring to Monday when talking to her friend. It's still stuck in her head. Does space to her mean let her do the talking, let her bring it up, let her come up with the solution?

Good for you for spending some solo time with your kids.


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## deejov

And stop reading her FB.


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## bandit.45

> And stop reading her FB.


No, don't quit reading her FB. There is no privacy in marriage.


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## Chaparral

Take a month off from talking about the relationship with her. If she brings it up don't take it as an excuse to give her your side, just answer questions and listen. Men want to fix things. Your hearing her but your not understanding what she is saying. Work on yourself 

You are coming across as needy,clingy,scared, no confidence etc. All the things that disgusts a woman. 

Giving her space. Doesn't sound like she needs physical space as much as mental space. Just shut up. Give yourself a month long vacation from worry and be a man. Build up a little mystery.

Did you ever read Married Man Sex Life and the Man Up Posts?

The biggest thing you need to work on is self respect.


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## Paulination

deejov said:


> And stop reading her FB.


I'll stop reading when she tells ME what she needs. I don't hear this from her, I hear it when she tells someone else. Now that I know she feels this way still, I will amp up the space and will take the advice to absolutely not talk about it.

I have ordered the MMSL and just waiting for it to arrive.


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## Enchantment

Maybe from her perspective what she said to her friend is true - it's how it feels to her, even if that's not how it feels to you. If you have been smothering and overheating her for a long time, it may take some time before she feels like you aren't breathing down her neck.

I agree with the suggestion to have a moratorium from talking about the relationship for a period of time unless she specifically brings up the issues.

And, I believe that everyone is entitled to a certain amount of privacy even within marriage. The thing they should not be entitled to is secrets. If your wife found out that you were perusing her FB conversations, how do you think that would make her feel - maybe even more smothered?

If you have no reason to be suspicious of her fidelity (which is why you snooped in the first place), then get out of those conversations. Because that in and of itself is invading her space.

Have you been doing any IC on your own, Pauli?

Best wishes.


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## Dedicated2Her

Don't tell her you are giving her space. Like bringing up the ps3 thing. Just do it. A little "Space" is good for both of you. She needs to process, and you need to change. Change on your own and let her process your changes. Don't bring them up. Stop talking about the relationship and trying to figure it out because you wont ever figure it out. Let her come to you when she wants to talk and don't say much back. Get a male friend that you can vent to that is reliable and trustworthy. You have to learn to stop being a man who gets his identity from her approval and start getting your identity from who you are as a man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Paulination

Enchantment said:


> Maybe from her perspective what she said to her friend is true - it's how it feels to her, even if that's not how it feels to you. If you have been smothering and overheating her for a long time, it may take some time before she feels like you aren't breathing down her neck.
> 
> I agree with the suggestion to have a moratorium from talking about the relationship for a period of time unless she specifically brings up the issues.
> 
> And, I believe that everyone is entitled to a certain amount of privacy even within marriage. The thing they should not be entitled to is secrets. If your wife found out that you were perusing her FB conversations, how do you think that would make her feel - maybe even more smothered?
> 
> If you have no reason to be suspicious of her fidelity (which is why you snooped in the first place), then get out of those conversations. Because that in and of itself is invading her space.
> 
> Have you been doing any IC on your own, Pauli?
> 
> Best wishes.


I haven't but my wife is scheduled to go on March 15, and then I'm going next. 

I'll admit guys, I'm new at this. I'm 43, married 11 years and up until 1 1/2 months ago I thought everything was fine. I have inundated myself with information to understand my wife, my relationship and what I personally have done to create this problem.

Before this I knew nothing about Nice Guy syndrome, relationship thermometers, cooling down, heating up, smothering, space, clingyness, letting go, 180's, ILYBNILWY, EA's etc.....
I just thought I had a relationship with my wife that was good and not complicated.

The advice I get here feels so unatural in regards to how I must behave but in my heart I can see how it is correct. I never imagined I would be relocated to spying on my wife but she doesn't want to tell me what I need to know.


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## Dedicated2Her

Paul, stop spying. It shows your insecurity and bleeds over into how you treat your wife. Trust me, I spied for over a year. Women can tell when you are being sneaky. Just stop. Be your own man and take care of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complexity

I think the ball is in her park now, you're just going to have to stop asking her about her problems. Give her the complete space. Marriage isn't a one person endeavour, she's going to have to pitch in if she wants to save it. You can't do it alone yourself.


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## Paulination

I am definately not going to talk about the relationship for a long while. I forgot to mention that last night shortly after complaining that she was being smothered by me and needed space she comes out of the room and sits where I am and proceeds to talk my ears of in a very friendly manor for over an hour. We didn't talk about us at all which is good but what a mixed message. Though in her defense, she didn't know I read those things.

I probably know enough now to knock off the spying but I don't regret it as it has helped me get some insight as to what I'm dealing with.


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## Dedicated2Her

Yes, spying is ok to verify no affair. We are in the same boat with the mixed messages. It is a roller coaster, but stay focused on you and increasing your abilities/looks/manhood. There will come a point when she starts to talk to you and pursues you. Mine has really just started to talk to me in a completely different way. When we started she was an 8 and I was a 4 as sex rank. It has taken massive work on my part and her losing her self a little but I am probably an 8 and she is a 7. Get massively fit, work hard on your daddy abilities, win the hearts even more of your children. Kick the ps3 to the curb. Read a ton. This will all eventually peak her interest and she will get a little "fear of loss" to kick the chemicals up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ComicBookLady

Paulination said:


> I am definately not going to talk about the relationship for a long while. I forgot to mention that last night shortly after complaining that she was being smothered by me and needed space she comes out of the room and sits where I am and proceeds to talk my ears of in a very friendly manor for over an hour. We didn't talk about us at all which is good but what a mixed message. Though in her defense, she didn't know I read those things.
> 
> I probably know enough now to knock off the spying but I don't regret it as it has helped me get some insight as to what I'm dealing with.



Awesome  If she keeps up this coming to talk to you thing, and she talks your ears off for a long time with you just listening and caring, I bet she'll gradually shift conversation to your relationship and finally open up. I bet you anything!


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## Paulination

Mrs. NotSureWhatToDo said:


> Awesome  If she keeps up this coming to talk to you thing, and she talks your ears off for a long time with you just listening and caring, I bet she'll gradually shift conversation to your relationship and finally open up. I bet you anything!


I hope you are right. She threw our situation into a couple of unrelated conversations and I didn't bite. Just didn't even address her comment.


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## Chaparral

"I'm frustrated. Why does my wife describe our situation to her FB friend in a different way then reality." 

It is as real as anything could be. You just don't understand what she is telling you. Men and women have entirely different thought processes. I am never sure what I am hearing when a woman speaks. Plus you are expected to know things they don't tell you. The number one rule is "listen but don't try to fix it" Listen and answer questions just offer very very little.


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## Paulination

I have another question. I have a FB acount that is used rarely and only to look for someone. My wife doesn't even realize it exists because I rarely go on it.

I said to her the other night that I was thinking about making FB a regular thing because I have old friends I have been thinking about. She got obviously taken back by this and said things like "I didn't think you liked FB and who are you trying to find", stuff like that which really came across as WTF are you up to?

At first it seemed I touched a nerve and really wanted to proceed but just before I did, I was wondering if this comes across as a desperate attemp to replicate what she does or invade some of her space that I have never been apart of. I abdolutely do not want to come across that way.


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## Complexity

2 possibilities 

she might think this is another attempt by you to snoop at what she's doing

or

she feels anxious that you might reconnect with old flames


----------



## Chaparral

or you are way over thinking this too


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## Dedicated2Her

Paul, some advice. STOP reading into things. Just do your thing. I wasted over a year manipulating and trying to fix stuff. 2 months ago, I said screw it and totally focused on me. Tonight I planned an babysitter and we went out to dinner. At dinner she says,"You know it is hard for me to give compliments so really take this for what it is worth. This does not mean things are peachy or does it mean I don't want you to move or does it mean I don't want a divorce, but I have notice how much you have developed in your masculinity and It is really incredible.". This is HUGE for her to admit. Work on you. Raise your sex rank. Leave her be for a while.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Paulination

Complexity said:


> 2 possibilities
> 
> she might think this is another attempt by you to snoop at what she's doing
> 
> or
> 
> she feels anxious that you might reconnect with old flames


Thats the problem, If she believes option A, I'm pathetic (in her eyes), if she belives option B, then I add a little mystery to it which is good.

I think I'm going to do it. I really do want to find friends or have an easier way to keep in touch with the ones I have so it really is not some strategy. She doesn't own FB and could hardly blame me for signing up. If it makes her a little insecure in the process, well that may be helpful but it is not my intent.


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## Paulination

Dedicated2Her said:


> Paul, some advice. STOP reading into things.


You know what, I have a huge problem with that. I do it at work to. The boss looked at me this way, or that way, what does it mean? I have got to get over that. I do it all the time and it makes me paranoid (not to a mental health level but still.

Good advise.


----------



## Complexity

Paulination said:


> Thats the problem, If she believes option A, I'm pathetic (in her eyes), if she belives option B, then I add a little mystery to it which is good.
> 
> I think I'm going to do it. I really do want to find friends or have an easier way to keep in touch with the ones I have so it really is not some strategy. She doesn't own FB and could hardly blame me for signing up. If it makes her a little insecure in the process, well that may be helpful but it is not my intent.


You're walking on eggshells, I understand. Just do what you want to, you don't have to update her on every little thing like this. She finds out, she finds out.


----------



## deejov

Paulination said:


> You know what, I have a huge problem with that. I do it at work to. The boss looked at me this way, or that way, what does it mean? I have got to get over that. I do it all the time and it makes me paranoid (not to a mental health level but still.
> 
> Good advise.


Okay, maybe you do over analyze things. 
What's the point in reading her FB? "When she tells ME what she needs"... hasn't it been made clear that she has been telling you what you needs, for the past 4 years, but you don't see it as an issue, thus it must be something else. That is mis communication.

Be practical. By your own account, you:
Play PS3 for an hour every night.
After 7, you have a few drinks to unwind.
You tend to fall asleep on the couch because you are really tired from work.
Are snappy with the kids.
Reaction: ZERO interaction with your wife in the evenings.

Here's the message you might send:
I'm not sooo tired that I need to go to bed. But your company is so un-stimulating that I can fall asleep while you are talking to me. 

Alternative:
Announce you are going to bed at 730 pm and get some rest. So you don't fall asleep on the couch. Reaction: "my spouse sure is tired. Maybe there is something I can do to help".

Same with the PS3.

So maybe you are in rut. It's a habit. Take the advice given to you. Change your life. Stop drinking. Go to the gym. Read books. Stop playing PS3 and watching tv. Play with your kids. Make yourself available for a real conversation with your family.

It's not about doing these things because your wife has asked you to do it for 4 years (you don't like being told what to do) but because it's healthier, it will make you less tired, you will spend more time with your kids, and may even benefit in becoming more focused on happier things. (not what she is doing or thinking). Just try it. For a month.


----------



## Chaparral

If my wife drank even a little every night and played ps3 even a little every night, I would dump her if she couldn't quit.

PS3 is good for two things. Addicting kids to gaming. And making Sony biliions. ( You are not a kid)


----------



## allthegoodnamesaregone

Mrs. NotSureWhatToDo said:


> Yep another long post from me!  Sorry in advance for the wordy-ness
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are a good husband for just being happy for her being able to spend her day in a way that makes her happy.
> 
> I mean no disrespect or insult by saying this at all, but I feel that the mere fact you face the family income as "yours" may not be a helpful way of thinking. I get the sense you think she "owes" you for your work. Yes you are literally the one who makes the money, but that was decision by you both of you to have one work and one stay at home. So really, in a marriage you're partners so the money is both of yours despite who makes it. I feel she is not meeting your need of acknowledging your hard work. It's a common mistake women make. So that's definitely something she needs to work on, but you'll have to make that need of yours known to her in the right way.
> 
> My own husband recently did something similar. He felt I wasn't acknowledging him enough, in which I felt I was, but after he talked to me I realized it wasn't quite in the way he wanted, and apparently he had felt this way for years. So now I go out of my way to try and show him my acknowledgment. It really did help in that area of our marriage, he even noted to me he felt better recently. So once you two are communicating again, maybe you could bring this are of your need up to her.
> 
> 
> 
> Again you are so understanding  And I hope you don't mix up understanding with "doormat" as others try to make it out to be. There's nothing wrong with having an understanding, caring frame of mind when it comes to your spouse. You are more the stronger by continually giving that to her when you feel so much resentment.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, as I mentioned above I feel she should be acknowledging you more for what you do. (I mentioned before, that men need to feel "needed" or acknowledged often, same as a women needs to feel cherished) so she is also not meeting your basic need in this marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, as she says something is missing for her, maybe she doesn't feel cherished, maybe she is trying to get you to pursue her again (in which this is not the way to do it, really) She wants that excitement with you again. However as it seems you two cannot communicate well she hasn't been able to get it across to you.
> 
> Was it truly out of nowhere this happened? There was no fight, or event that happened around this time?
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah... seems to me she does NOT want to divorce you, she loves you, but is trying to get her needs met by putting in this situation. I believe she's trying to startle you into seeing that her needs are important, and to get you to finally listen. Again, not the right way to go about it. But for you, it's your choice if you love her enough to be the first one to go in and help pull her back to a position where you can both communicate effectively. I heavily suggest that "letting her talk" event if you can make it happen. It can't hurt anyway, and you never know, it may make things known to you that you could only guess at before.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe, but I don't think she even knows how crappy you feel, or that you're hurting so bad, because SHE is feeling crappy and hurting too. I do feel like she's using the big "D" as a way to make you see her needs, to listen finally. But I truly don't feel it's a way to gain power, I believe it's something she's doing out of desperation, and I don't think SHE even knows why she's doing it.
> 
> I don't know you or your wife personally, so I could be waaaay off base, all of my posts and opinions are based off of years of research that I've done for my own marriage, and I'm trying to relay some of it for your consideration in case it may help, but I could be totally wrong. I just had to speak up because I saw so many try and tell you that you are a doormat, you are giving too much, you need to take things from her. None of that is true. You are acting in the most respectable, strong way, and are in fact being a good husband in the best way you know how. Doing all you can, sometimes bending over backwards to be there for your wife, and pull her back from whatever slump she's gotten herself into is NOT being weak. it takes the strongest person imaginable to power through something like this, going against resentment to give more. At least if things do end in divorce, you REALLY know you tried everything you could to fix it.
> 
> I feel in one sentence this situation is the result of miscommunication between both of you, and all it takes is a little understanding on both parts to fix it. Please read Men are from Mars, Women from Venus! It's an older book but it has a lot of truth in it. Also my husband recommends the Eric Thomas' "Thank God I'm Married" on YouTube, said it really opened his eyes to my womanly craziness


Let's cut to the chase, it sounds to me like the wife is having a MLC, possibly peri-menopause is kicking in. These forums of full of virtually identical stories, it's just in his case he seems to have caught it very early before she developed an EA or A. That would be her next step, telling her problems to some POSOM online. 

Her quick disconnect is classic, another forum I visit has 520 pages of virtually identical stories where the W over a short space of time goes from calling you at work just to hear the sound of your voice, to acting like the aliens have taken her over. 

I don't know what else to say, the outcome of this situation almost always ends up with the W leaving, and an OM showing up shortly after. With some this MLC process is mild and they come through it, but generally it ends in divorce.


----------



## deejov

I'm not able to be so nice anymore.

You should get a divorce. Get an apartment, where you can play video games, drink every night, fall asleep on the couch, and no one will complain.

You are right. She should just accept that you ignore her and hte kids every night. That's the way you are. If she doesn't like it, she should get a job and leave. You work hard. You deserve it. In fact, she should be pouring your drinks and have the PS3 turned on for you when you get home. She's very ungrateful. She's probably having an affair.


----------



## Conrad

Dedicated2Her said:


> Paul, some advice. STOP reading into things. Just do your thing. I wasted over a year manipulating and trying to fix stuff. 2 months ago, I said screw it and totally focused on me. Tonight I planned an babysitter and we went out to dinner. At dinner she says,"You know it is hard for me to give compliments so really take this for what it is worth. This does not mean things are peachy or does it mean I don't want you to move or does it mean I don't want a divorce, but I have notice how much you have developed in your masculinity and It is really incredible.". This is HUGE for her to admit. Work on you. Raise your sex rank. Leave her be for a while.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Change your moniker.


----------



## Paulination

deejov said:


> I'm not able to be so nice anymore.
> 
> You should get a divorce. Get an apartment, where you can play video games, drink every night, fall asleep on the couch, and no one will complain.
> 
> You are right. She should just accept that you ignore her and hte kids every night. That's the way you are. If she doesn't like it, she should get a job and leave. You work hard. You deserve it. In fact, she should be pouring your drinks and have the PS3 turned on for you when you get home. She's very ungrateful. She's probably having an affair.


Is this directed at me? WTF??
The PS 3 thing was what I did when she was scrapbooking in the same room. She was doing her thing and I did mine in the same room while talking and exchanging pleasentries. I explained this but some how I'm a PS 3 addicted drunk who ignores his family?? I don't fall asleep on the couch, I fall asleep in the bed while watching a show at 10:30 or 11 at night. I get up at 6:30, she gets up at whenever.

I'm not expecting you to be nice. But giving sarcastic advise that isn't even based on reality is just rude.


----------



## ComicBookLady

Paulination said:


> I have another question. I have a FB acount that is used rarely and only to look for someone. My wife doesn't even realize it exists because I rarely go on it.
> 
> I said to her the other night that I was thinking about making FB a regular thing because I have old friends I have been thinking about. She got obviously taken back by this and said things like "I didn't think you liked FB and who are you trying to find", stuff like that which really came across as WTF are you up to?
> 
> At first it seemed I touched a nerve and really wanted to proceed but just before I did, I was wondering if this comes across as a desperate attemp to replicate what she does or invade some of her space that I have never been apart of. I abdolutely do not want to come across that way.


Probably because she's wondering if you're up to anything. Trying to figure out if you're doing it because of her or you are truly interested in Facebook. Apparently Facebook is her "safe zone" too, where she can vent feelings to understanding friends, so having you broach suddenly into that probably did touch upon a nerve, though she would never stop you from venturing onto Facebook if you wanted to.

I agree with those that say if YOU are interested in Facebook, go for it, but if you are truly doing it for her, maybe not. Can't blame you for wanting too though 

Also don't let off the wall posts on here get to you. People are going to react to your situation wildly in this forum, in as many ways as there are types of people. Ignore the negative and focus on things you deem positive and progressive in terms of help.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Conrad said:


> Change your moniker.


Ha! I am very dedicated to my wife. Just giving her what she and the family needs from me at the moment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## memyselfandi

It's time to set some boundaries. Are you willing to put up with her having an "in home" separation??

To me, that just sounds ridiculous!! She gets all the finer parts of living in the home while enjoying all the benefits of you putting up with it while she gets to "find" her feelings again?

I'm sorry to have to say this time after time in my posts, but don't enable her to do this. Sounds like the harder you try..the more she manipulates.

Love is blind and it stinks when you love someone so much that you're willing to just put up with whatever the person you love dishes out. She know that and if you don't set some boundaries..you'll continue to be unhappy.

Nice guys like you don't always have to finish last...so take some time to think about what you want to do with YOUR life instead of putting up with whatever she wants to throw at you.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but you're better than that. Do something about it and quit being her speed bump...in the long run, you'll be thankful you did!!


----------



## ComicBookLady

I see what the preview post before me means, however I must add to the other side of this. As there's kids involved I actually don't feel an in home separation is too bad, considering that having mom or dad move out would be a lot more jolting to the family, especially as she's made it clear that she's not really thinking about divorce, just needs space, and reconciliation is still not he table. They still live together, they still go about their daily lives together, take care of the kids together, they still talk sometimes (or so all this I've gathered, correct me if I'm wrong). So to me this sounds like a mis-labeling of "separation" on her part. Sounds like she just needs some time to think and figure stuff out so put a halt to aspects in attempt to do so (not arguing whether that's right or wrong however).

She could be thinking about the kids and the life they've built in all this, and doesn't want to be hasty to throw it all away when she's so confused. I don't understand why so many are quick to make her out to be this "leech" as people are trying to make her out as.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Mrs. NotSureWhatToDo said:


> I see what the preview post before me means, however I must add to the other side of this. As there's kids involved I actually don't feel an in home separation is too bad, considering that having mom or dad move out would be a lot more jolting to the family, especially as she's made it clear that she's not really thinking about divorce, just needs space, and reconciliation is still not he table. They still live together, they still go about their daily lives together, take care of the kids together, they still talk sometimes (or so all this I've gathered, correct me if I'm wrong). So to me this sounds like a mis-labeling of "separation" on her part. Sounds like she just needs some time to think and figure stuff out so put a halt to aspects in attempt to do so (not arguing whether that's right or wrong however).
> 
> She could be thinking about the kids and the life they've built in all this, and doesn't want to be hasty to throw it all away when she's so confused. I don't understand why so many are quick to make her out to be this "leech" as people are trying to make her out as.


While I tend to agree, I think the OP needs to do more to make it closer to a real separation. By that, I mean he should go do his thing and let her approach him for conversation, etc. I would recommend hitting the gym or taking up a hobby to do at night, preferably so that he can be out of the house in the evenings a couple of times a week. Reconnect with your friends in person. Go out and have some fun without her. I would also take the kids on an outing without her on the weekends. Even just down to the park is fine. To be clear, you need to take care fo your end of the household. Don't be rude, mean or unkind about it, but do go have appropriate fun.

She has all day to take care of herself and her needs while you work. You need to practice working on yourself. If she needs space to think about things and can't help you with what you need, then you need to focus on you a bit.


----------



## allthegoodnamesaregone

I hate to say this, but you need to hear it. First off, many of these stories go on for 10-15 pages and come to much the same conclusion, there is another man/woman in the picture somewhere.
None of us want to believe this, I didn't either.
Most of us who have been through this have done nothing to warrant this treatment except to them the marriage become like an old car, dependable, get's good gas mileage , but is now boring compared to the lives of others on the media, divorced friends on Facebook or on games like "World of Warcraft".

If you have not committed any "divorce-able offenses", before you waste your time doing anything mentioned in this thread, I'd make absolutely sure there was no other man in the wings. If there is, there's no point in doing anything but exposing it, asking her to leave and doing the 180 to save yourself. 

Once a wife's emotions have left you for another what ever changes you make will seldom ever be enough, that's if they even give you a justified reason for their displeasure of your company. They're too much in the fog to even notice, unless you catch it very early and tell them it's either you or the highway.


----------



## Conrad

Dedicated2Her said:


> Ha! I am very dedicated to my wife. Just giving her what she and the family needs from me at the moment.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your posts finally indicate you are dedicated to yourself.

That's as it should be.

Your moniker should reflect that.


----------



## Paulination

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> If you have not committed any "divorce-able offenses", before you waste your time doing anything mentioned in this thread, I'd make absolutely sure there was no other man in the wings. If there is, there's no point in doing anything but exposing it, asking her to leave and doing the 180 to save yourself.


That was my first thought. So I:

1) Checked her schedule for descrepencies in time.
2) Checked phone and text records
3) Set up a computer spying program to monitor her usage including snapshots to catch messages that might be deleted.
4) Straight up asked her.

There is nothing. I don't think she would even know how to go further underground than this. If you think I am missing something, where else should I look?

As far as the in-home seperation is concerned, she doesn't want physical space, she wants emotional space from this issue. She initiates conversations about everything but us. She also doesn't want sex.
Our life almost seems normal besides what I have described but it still kills me.


----------



## allthegoodnamesaregone

Paulination said:


> That was my first thought. So I:
> 
> 1) Checked her schedule for descrepencies in time.
> 2) Checked phone and text records
> 3) Set up a computer spying program to monitor her usage including snapshots to catch messages that might be deleted.
> 4) Straight up asked her.
> 
> There is nothing. I don't think she would even know how to go further underground than this. If you think I am missing something, where else should I look?
> 
> As far as the in-home seperation is concerned, she doesn't want physical space, she wants emotional space from this issue. She initiates conversations about everything but us. She also doesn't want sex.
> Our life almost seems normal besides what I have described but it still kills me.


How old is she, some women hit peri-menopause and have similar behavior, give the same speeches. She might even be suffering from some sort of depression...In regards to the OM issue, she could have secret phone, or see the OM at soccer. I'd pop a VAR in the car she drives, or in places in the home she could talk unheard ( basement, laundry room, bathroom etc... just to cover all bases. 

I can't remember seeing this sort of thing happening where there was not a OM/OW, it could be you caught it so early she's not had a chance to get to that step, but has been thinking about it. In the short term upping you sex rank could not hurt ala the married man's sex life
Married Man Sex Life


----------



## This is me

Paulination said:


> That was my first thought. So I:
> 
> 1) Checked her schedule for descrepencies in time.
> 2) Checked phone and text records
> 3) Set up a computer spying program to monitor her usage including snapshots to catch messages that might be deleted.
> 4) Straight up asked her.
> 
> There is nothing. I don't think she would even know how to go further underground than this. If you think I am missing something, where else should I look?
> 
> As far as the in-home seperation is concerned, she doesn't want physical space, she wants emotional space from this issue. She initiates conversations about everything but us. She also doesn't want sex.
> Our life almost seems normal besides what I have described but it still kills me.


Sounds like you have done your due-diligence.

I did not read all 9 pages so not sure if this was covered, but is MC an option? If so, you need to both agree to the same person together or move to the next MC.

Glad to hear you are reading Divorce Busters. This helped me alot with the patience part of these fall away wives. At least yours did not walk away. Mine just came home after 4 months and we are working our way back to the loving relationship.

Not sure what sets them off, chemical change, mid-life issues, who knows, but if you want to save the marriage patience is the key.

She needs to know that there has to be a point where you are moving towards reconcile or moving on. Let her know you will give her space and time but not for too long as limbo is very painful and you don't want a room mate.

I wish you well!


----------



## Dedicated2Her

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> How old is she, some women hit peri-menopause and have similar behavior, give the same speeches. She might even be suffering from some sort of depression...In regards to the OM issue, she could have secret phone, or see the OM at soccer. I'd pop a VAR in the car she drives, or in places in the home she could talk unheard ( basement, laundry room, bathroom etc... just to cover all bases.
> 
> I can't remember seeing this sort of thing happening where there was not a OM/OW, it could be you caught it so early she's not had a chance to get to that step, but has been thinking about it. In the short term upping you sex rank could not hurt ala the married man's sex life
> Married Man Sex Life


Well, it happened in mine without an om. It just depends on the wounds she has carried around with her since childhood and the amount of resentment that she has allowed to build up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## allthegoodnamesaregone

Dedicated2Her said:


> Well, it happened in mine without an om. It just depends on the wounds she has carried around with her since childhood and the amount of resentment that she has allowed to build up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Maybe not that you were aware of? Women seldom leave a marriage without conflicts with no backup plan, unless there is some sort of mental illness at play. I think in some cases there is an OM we never hear about. The OM gets cold feet and splits when the wife leaves her husband. To cut their losses the wife moves back home.


----------



## Paulination

This is me said:


> Let her know you will give her space and time but not for too long as limbo is very painful and you don't want a room mate.
> 
> I wish you well!


Thank you. Limbo is the worse part. I feel as if she just doesn't want to deal with her emotions so she leaves me hanging. I can't understand how she is not sympathetic to the pain she is causing me. She just operates as if nothing is wrong unless I bring up the relationship or try to show her affection (both of which I have stopped but I am still obsessed with the situation).

Addressing the post before yours, she is 33 and I really don't think there is any indication of OM. She even told her mom that I had asked her that and then said "I haven't been hit on by anyone since before we were married". She also told her toxic friend "he asked me if I was cheating on him, can you believe that?"


----------



## WithMuchRegret

Dear Paulination- i have read thru your messages and have been on both sides of this issue. For 20 years i led a great marriage to a wonderful man. I knew he loved me and never ever complained or belittled me. I got married with alot of baggage and a very vocal and blunt way of speaking i would 'speak my mind' openly to him on what bothered me. 

i met him at our drs office ( we work together) and he was dating a girl that i knew was not good to him. He showered her with attention and gifts and would drop everything to please her. Then one day he dropped her and we started dating. 

So we married and in the back of my crazy mind i kept playing this crazy record that he never loved me as much as he loved her because he wasn't as attentive to me. Fast forward 20 years and i still hold alot of resentment towards him. I have said things i wish i never said, but blundered them out out of frustration. I gained 50 lbs and i hated myself. I wasn't doing well at work and i just lost my father after taking care of him for many years. 

Out of the blue he asks me for a separation. He told me i live in the past and have a lot of anger and he's afraid of my hostile way of driving and going off on people. I know i have been angry. I am mostly hurt. What hurt me the most was when my father died, he never held me or consoled me and i hold alot of anger toward him for this.

after we spoke he also told me that he has been losing weight bc of the nervousness he feels when around me. He's always been the passive and quiet type of guy. Now we walks around with a face i've never seen before.

so now i'm on the other side of the relationship, first being the one who disrespected my husband and now he's wanting nothing to do with me at all. Now i'm the one trying , pleading and begging him to let me work things out. 

i sit crying alot, reading alot and now i'm writing on blogs which i never thought id do. but i find them helpful. i love him so much and i wish i could undo how i treated him. I guess you could say i came with too much baggage and never wanted to let it go.

Paulination- i think that your wife does love you and all she needs is space. Space to feel better about herself. But you, like me are smothering her. I realize this this morning. i've been trying to hard to fix what will take some time to fix. 

I can say for myself, what would make me melt is for my husband to wrap his arms around me and tell me "i know it hurts, but lets try agin"
Not telling me to get tested, or go to therapy. I just need to feel loved.

I'm praying for you Paulination. You sound like a very caring and committed husband. I applaud your honesty and your devotion to your wife. Good Luck!


----------



## Dedicated2Her

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> Maybe not that you were aware of? Women seldom leave a marriage without conflicts with no backup plan, unless there is some sort of mental illness at play. I think in some cases there is an OM we never hear about. The OM gets cold feet and splits when the wife leaves her husband. To cut their losses the wife moves back home.



I went full on spy mode with a sahm that has 4 kids that homeschools. Keylogger, spy stuff on the phone, var, etc. Nothing, nada, zilch. 
Of course, she hasn't left physically and doesn't ever go out at night. Maybe she has a made up fantasy guy in her head. Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Paulination

I'm willing to give her the time and the emotional space to get back on track with me but she won't declare what she wants. It is always "I don't know how I feel, I don't know what I want". She says she doesn't want divorce but she doesn't know what she wants. It almost feels like she is intentional being ambivolent as some sort of control mechanism. Meanwhile th uncertainty and estrangement of affection is killing me.

I am starting to feel real resentment that she is putting me through this for no good reason. 

If she would just decide, we could move forward with either a divorce or a plan to fix the marriage. I could live with either one at this point.


----------



## GTdad

Paulination said:


> If she would just decide, we could move forward with either a divorce or a plan to fix the marriage. I could live with either one at this point.


Might be time to take control over your life and make your own decisions, not only because it's the healthy thing to do, but also because it's the fair thing to do. Don't put the entire decision on whether your marriage survives on your wife.


----------



## Broncos Fan

Paulination said:


> I'm willing to give her the time and the emotional space to get back on track with me but she won't declare what she wants. It is always "I don't know how I feel, I don't know what I want". She says she doesn't want divorce but she doesn't know what she wants. It almost feels like she is intentional being ambivolent as some sort of control mechanism. Meanwhile th uncertainty and estrangement of affection is killing me.
> 
> I am starting to feel real resentment that she is putting me through this for no good reason.
> 
> If she would just decide, we could move forward with either a divorce or a plan to fix the marriage. I could live with either one at this point.


After reading the thread over again, I have to wonder if she is simply using all this to control you to some extent. But in terms of your final paragraph, why do you have to wait for her to decide all that? If you could live with either one at this point, why don't you figure out what you really want and make it happen? You can't just wait for her to make up her mind given that you have little leverage over her.


----------



## allthegoodnamesaregone

Paulination said:


> I'm willing to give her the time and the emotional space to get back on track with me but she won't declare what she wants. It is always "I don't know how I feel, I don't know what I want". She says she doesn't want divorce but she doesn't know what she wants. It almost feels like she is intentional being ambivolent as some sort of control mechanism. Meanwhile th uncertainty and estrangement of affection is killing me.
> 
> I am starting to feel real resentment that she is putting me through this for no good reason.
> 
> If she would just decide, we could move forward with either a divorce or a plan to fix the marriage. I could live with either one at this point.


Some aren't sure what they want, but they are almost sure it isn't you. They'll make your life miserable in the hope you'll finally blow and do the dirty work for them. You get pissed off and file for D and they become the hard done by spouse.....


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Paulination said:


> I'm willing to give her the time and the emotional space to get back on track with me but she won't declare what she wants. It is always "I don't know how I feel, I don't know what I want". She says she doesn't want divorce but she doesn't know what she wants. It almost feels like she is intentional being ambivolent as some sort of control mechanism. Meanwhile th uncertainty and estrangement of affection is killing me.
> 
> I am starting to feel real resentment that she is putting me through this for no good reason.
> 
> If she would just decide, we could move forward with either a divorce or a plan to fix the marriage. I could live with either one at this point.


This is why I suggested that you start taking care of yourself. She can't or won't do that right now, so you need to. Work on yourself and give her space while you are doing it. Be out of the house a couple of evenings and take the kids out on the weekends. Take care of your share of the household, but start looking out for yourself. It will cool things down, was well as give her space and a look into life with out you. 

It will also help reduce the resentment by avoiding an unbalanced relationship. It is human nature to get resentful when one person is doing all the work and the other still gets the benefits. You doing less work will help reduce your resentment.

Again, not being mean or nasty, just backing off and looking after you. Go have fun and be a fun person. If she asks, just tell her that you are giving her space and looking after yourself since she can't do that right no.


----------



## WithMuchRegret

Tall Average Guy said:


> This is why I suggested that you start taking care of yourself. She can't or won't do that right now, so you need to. Work on yourself and give her space while you are doing it. Be out of the house a couple of evenings and take the kids out on the weekends. Take care of your share of the household, but start looking out for yourself. It will cool things down, was well as give her space and a look into life with out you.
> 
> It will also help reduce the resentment by avoiding an unbalanced relationship. It is human nature to get resentful when one person is doing all the work and the other still gets the benefits. You doing less work will help reduce your resentment.
> 
> Again, not being mean or nasty, just backing off and looking after you. Go have fun and be a fun person. If she asks, just tell her that you are giving her space and looking after yourself since she can't do that right no.


This is good advice for me to follow too. thank you.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

> I'm willing to give her the time and the emotional space to get back on track with me but she won't declare what she wants. It is always "I don't know how I feel, I don't know what I want". She says she doesn't want divorce but she doesn't know what she wants. It almost feels like she is intentional being ambivolent as some sort of control mechanism. Meanwhile th uncertainty and estrangement of affection is killing me.
> 
> I am starting to feel real resentment that she is putting me through this for no good reason.
> 
> If she would just decide, we could move forward with either a divorce or a plan to fix the marriage. I could live with either one at this point.


God, you and I are so alike. It sounds like you are reading my thoughts from 1.5 years ago. You are not masculine. Get some mentors. Start getting serious about why you are here. Dump the PS3 and the drinking. Time to redefine yourself. Most likely, she will come around once you LEAD by changing first. Some women are more stubborn than others because of their wounds or upbringing. (mine is as stubborn as a mule) Don't wait for her to decide anything. You start making yourself into the man you always wanted to be in every other part of your life. DON'T YOU SEE THE PRESSURE SHE IS UNDER WITH YOU WANTING TO KNOW WHAT SHE WANTS??????


----------



## Complexity

Paulination said:


> I'm willing to give her the time and the emotional space to get back on track with me but she won't declare what she wants. It is always "I don't know how I feel, I don't know what I want". She says she doesn't want divorce but she doesn't know what she wants. It almost feels like she is intentional being ambivolent as some sort of control mechanism. Meanwhile th uncertainty and estrangement of affection is killing me.
> 
> I am starting to feel real resentment that she is putting me through this for no good reason.
> 
> If she would just decide, we could move forward with either a divorce or a plan to fix the marriage. I could live with either one at this point.


Maybe informing her that you're starting on divorce proceedings might snap her out of this ambivalence and then you'd really know what she wants. You could always halt the divorce if she begins pitching in to fix the marriage? However you need concrete action to show her that you're content with living without her at this point.


----------



## Chaparral

Paulination said:


> Thank you. Limbo is the worse part. I feel as if she just doesn't want to deal with her emotions so she leaves me hanging. I can't understand how she is not sympathetic to the pain she is causing me. She just operates as if nothing is wrong unless I bring up the relationship or try to show her affection (both of which I have stopped but I am still obsessed with the situation).
> 
> Addressing the post before yours, she is 33 and I really don't think there is any indication of OM. She even told her mom that I had asked her that and then said "I haven't been hit on by anyone since before we were married". She also told her toxic friend "he asked me if I was cheating on him, can you believe that?"


Have you talked to her mother? Have you read "His Needs Her Needs"?


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## Chaparral

Shes an athlete, runs teams etc. very alpha. You do the house work and other girl stuff. She may not conciously even realize it. The worse part is she is a prime candidate for being a target for an alpha male. 

Since she wants space and she's a Sahm, go over the housework with her and make a list of what she has to do and you will do. You should not be doing more than 25% of it.

Then you have time to go to the gym, fishing,golfing etc. Up your sex rank now. If your wife isn't into video games she probaly thinks you look like a wienie. 

Where do they go after the soccer games? I don't know how many affairs I've seen revolving around team sports. My brother kicked his first wife out after catching her with the softball coach.


----------



## Paulination

chapparal said:


> Have you talked to her mother? Have you read "His Needs Her Needs"?


I have talked to her mom, and she has talked to her mom and she is a stumped as I am.


----------



## Chaparral

Paulination said:


> I have talked to her mom, and she has talked to her mom and she is a stumped as I am.


What does she do after the soccer games? Do they go out drinking?


----------



## Paulination

chapparal said:


> What does she do after the soccer games? Do they go out drinking?


She'll hang out with the team while they "cool down" but doesn't drink with them and usually leaves the facility within an hour after the game ended.

BTW, I've told her I don't care if she gets a beer with them but she doesn't anyway. Last night she came home with an icee.


----------



## COguy

I feel for you Paulination. I heard that wishy washy stuff from my wife for many months before her EA officially started and she ended up going off the deep end. My attitude towards her was much the same as yours. She was young when we were married, from her mothers house to mine, and I sheltered her because I cared so much. That sheltering in the long run is damaging, because it puts this expectation on you that everything must go alright or you fail her. It also puts an unrealistic expectation on your wife that her life is going to be all roses and cinnamon buns and she will never have struggles in her life.

It's very similar to what would happen if you shelter, coddle, and baby a child, they grow up spoiled and rotten.

After I got my balls back, and I spent some time on TAM, reading about divorces and infidelity and walk-away wives and in-home separations, I realized how much of a dumba$$ I was before. The more wishy washy she got, the more I tried to be the super hero. It's totally the wrong way to go. The correct response is the opposite, even though it is much harder to do and runs contrary to our personality type. The correct response breaks the addiction of needing to feel needed by our spouse. The correct response, if she wants to "find herself" and she "isn't sure what to do," is to politely, lovingly, tell her she is not welcome in your home anymore until she is committed to being married to you 100%. That means that she works to your needs and not just her needs.

Get serious about separating/divorcing. Get serious about moving on. Get serious about living your life without her.

One of two things will happen: she'll stay wishy washy and chase happiness in all the wrong places, you will be in a much better place to move on and find a successful relationship and save yourself months, maybe years, of effort and pain hoping she changes. Or her ass will snap back into reality so fast you won't know what hit her.

Best time to do it is now, otherwise you're just wasting time till one of you has an affair or you slowly die from apathy and disappointment.


----------



## Complexity

COguy said:


> I feel for you Paulination. I heard that wishy washy stuff from my wife for many months before her EA officially started and she ended up going off the deep end. My attitude towards her was much the same as yours. She was young when we were married, from her mothers house to mine, and I sheltered her because I cared so much. That sheltering in the long run is damaging, because it puts this expectation on you that everything must go alright or you fail her. It also puts an unrealistic expectation on your wife that her life is going to be all roses and cinnamon buns and she will never have struggles in her life.
> 
> It's very similar to what would happen if you shelter, coddle, and baby a child, they grow up spoiled and rotten.
> 
> After I got my balls back, and I spent some time on TAM, reading about divorces and infidelity and walk-away wives and in-home separations, I realized how much of a dumba$$ I was before. The more wishy washy she got, the more I tried to be the super hero. It's totally the wrong way to go. The correct response is the opposite, even though it is much harder to do and runs contrary to our personality type. The correct response breaks the addiction of needing to feel needed by our spouse. The correct response, if she wants to "find herself" and she "isn't sure what to do," is to politely, lovingly, tell her she is not welcome in your home anymore until she is committed to being married to you 100%. That means that she works to your needs and not just her needs.
> 
> Get serious about separating/divorcing. Get serious about moving on. Get serious about living your life without her.
> 
> One of two things will happen: she'll stay wishy washy and chase happiness in all the wrong places, you will be in a much better place to move on and find a successful relationship and save yourself months, maybe years, of effort and pain hoping she changes. Or her ass will snap back into reality so fast you won't know what hit her.
> 
> Best time to do it is now, otherwise you're just wasting time till one of you has an affair or you slowly die from apathy and disappointment.


Excellent advice here.


----------



## Paulination

So how do I process this???? Last night my wife and I went to bed at about 11 which is normal for me but early for her (remember she doesn't have to get up early).

I wake up at 1:30 to her typing away on her laptop. I look at her and she looks at me and says "what??" very defensively. I put my head down and she continues to type. I look again and she says "what??" So I ask her what she is doing so late. She says "I can't sleep". I ask her what she is typing and she makes some lame excuse about typing a response to a friends e-mail to her. I could tell though she was having a conversation with someone.

I ask her to show me the e-mail and she flips out. 1:30 in the am, I have to be up at 6:30 and now I have drama. She closes her laptop and tells me that she is going to finish answering messages in the next room.

She comes back a few minutes later, puts the laptop down and storms out.

Obviously I think the worse the next morning and check out her activity and come to find out, she was having a perfectly benign conversation with a male fellow soccer fan that I have no problem with.

She was obviously trying to hide the fact that she was talking with him so late at night but here was nothing in their conversation that was the least bit inapropriate. On top of that, even though I have some beta traits, this guy makes me look like alpha male extroidenaire so I am not threatened whatsoever either physically or mentally.

Why would she feel the need to hide this from me?

Now for the capper. When she was pissed and took the computer out of the room, she was changing her password to make sure I couldn't find out what she was doing (she previously has told me the password and probably remembered doing so). Know what the new pasword is?????

fu<koffphd. PHD are my initials. Ofcourse I am not supposed to be able to see this so I don't know what to make of it. I think my wife has problems. You can't make this stuff up.


----------



## Chaparral

You go to bed before she does. You don't know what she is doing after you go to bed. She has time during the day to have an affair?
Do you think if she had a converstion with with anaffair partner it would have to have something inappropritate in it. 

For the password and disrespect alone I would be going full on 180.


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## COguy

Beginning of an EA. Not because of the person, because of the actions. She's looking to start hiding stuff. She's probably going to start putting feelers out there, making connections with different dudes.

She has all the signs of a woman who is in the beginning stages of having an affair. Like I mentioned, there's a myriad of experts that have all commented on the appropriate psychological solution to this kind of behavior.

I had read about the 180, read Love Must Be Tough, read the advice in His Needs Her Needs, I agreed with the advice and used it in my marriage with good results. But the whole situation really clicked for me after reading this thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/38920-women-s-infidelity-book.html

There's 10 pages of debate on whether she's accurate or not, but she described my wife's actions to the T, this is what really stuck out for me:



> Did you interview anyone who made it through this?
> 
> Yes, I did. I interviewed two men who handled themselves
> much differently than most of the men I talked to over the years.
> 
> The first man took the initiative and filed for divorce after his wife expressed on several occasions that she was unhappy and considering a separation. Before the divorce was final, his wife was trying to reconcile, but he chose not to because of her disinterest in working on the marriage prior to his filing for divorce.
> 
> The other man dealt similarly with the problem, but he had an advantage. He had experienced a similar situation with his first wife. In that instance he lived in limbo for two years, doing everything he could to hold on to his wife, but nothing worked. Six years later he married again.
> 
> Three years into that relationship, the second wife began to express her unhappiness. Though doubtful that he could endure the trauma of a second divorce, he took control and prevented any period of limbo.
> 
> He saw the similarities between his first and second wife’s behavior and figured out right away that his second wife was seeing someone. He told her if she stopped her affair he would be willing to work on the marriage; however, he would not accept anything less than her whole-hearted effort. He insisted that separation was not an option because he recognized that separation is just a prelude to a divorce. He wrote his wife a letter and listed the changes that would have to occur in order for him to stay in the marriage. He gave me a copy of it. I will read a portion of his letter to you.
> 
> “Complaining is no longer acceptable. If you want me to do (or not do) something, you must tell me what it is. I do not expect you to read my mind and I will no longer try to read yours. If you want to have a mature, committed relationship you can expect one-hundred percent effort on my part; however, I will not allow my spirit to deteriorate because of your indecision.”
> 
> His letter was direct and he set clear boundaries. Because he had been through the process before, he understood what his wife was doing even better than she did.


Validation that through hundreds of accounts, the plan I had read about was the best way to handle the situation.

When you step back and look as a neutral observer, the situation you are in is abysmal. You're spending a tremendous amount of physical and emotional energy into one person who is supposed to be equally investing into you. That person that committed their life to you is now telling you they aren't really that sure they want to do that anymore. And your response is to spend MORE time and energy on changing that person. SCREW THAT.

My self-respect-o-meter is not detecting any testacles on or near your person. Of course a woman is going to walk all over you if you provide her every need and don't ask for anything in return.

One of my "sayings", is WWBD. What would Brad Pitt do? Brad's got a lot of self-respect, do you think if he was married to your wife he would put up with that crap? Hell no, if your wife went to Brad Pitt and said, "Hey, I love you and all but I'm not really sure I want to be married to you anymore, we should still live in the same house though and act nice to eachother, but I'm not going to give you any more sex or work to meet your needs, I'll be like a permanent roommate c*ckblocking your every move and reminding you of your failed marriage." Do you think Brad would take that? He'd have your wife packing so fast she would forget to bring her undies. And why is that? Because Brad has something you don't, self-respect. He knows that no chick is worth that kind of treatment, he can do better. He also knows that he's not personally responsible for this woman, she's a grown-up and has the ability to fend for herself.

In short, do not allow the wishy-washy. Expediate her wishes if she expresses a lack of interest in being in a happy, healthy marriage. Maybe you don't feel it, but try to get in the mindset where you are actually happy that she wants to end the marriage so you can move on. Do not do it to "get her back", do it because you're an awesome guy and husband and there are literally millions of women who would kill baby seals with their bare hands to have a man like you.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Paulination said:


> Obviously I think the worse the next morning and check out her activity and come to find out, she was having a perfectly benign conversation with a male fellow soccer fan that I have no problem with.


Wrong. There is nothing benign about a conversation with a member of the opposite sex at 1:30 in the morning that you hide from your spouse. This is the start of something bad in your marriage.


----------



## allthegoodnamesaregone

Sigh....Another one down. First rule of Distant Wife Club...there is always an OM on their mind. In this case you just caught in the early stages, but it's probably already too late. Man up, 180 and tell her to get her **** together, if she puts you off, file.


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## COguy

Tall Average Guy said:


> Wrong. There is nothing benign about a conversation with a member of the opposite sex at 1:30 in the morning that you hide from your spouse. This is the start of something bad in your marriage.


Word, that kind of thinking is a good way to get blindsided when you find out she sent this guy pictures of her crotch.

Don't worry, it happens to the best of us...........


----------



## Paulination

COguy said:


> One of my "sayings", is WWBD. What would Brad Pitt do?


I love this.

Anyways, I hear what you are all saying and will keep my eyes on it but honestly, I know this guy and he 30 something and still lives with his mom. His sex rate is probably about a 5 and I am a solid 7. If she wants him then they can have each other. EA, PA whatever...
Their only connection is and has been their love of indoor soccer. The season ends in a couple of days so they will have nothing left to talk about. I suspect that is when an EA will begin if one does. They communicate exclusively through FB so I'll be all over it if it does.

If it happens, then my confrontaion with her will not be to end it, but end the marriage. I'm at that point that I need this to end one way or another. That would just be the nail in the coffin and the scissors to cut that last emotional thread I have left. She can go live with him and his mom for all I care.

I woke up today for the first time in two months not worried about the marriage, not worried about her. I don't feel like talking with her about it, I don't fell like thinking about it. She'll do what she does. If she wants to throw this all away then so be it. 

I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing. I've reading MMSL and learning alot about how to be more alpha and I'm going with that.


----------



## COguy

Paulination said:


> I love this.
> 
> Anyways, I hear what you are all saying and will keep my eyes on it but honestly, I know this guy and he 30 something and still lives with his mom. His sex rate is probably about a 5 and I am a solid 7. If she wants him then they can have each other. EA, PA whatever...
> Their only connection is and has been their love of indoor soccer. The season ends in a couple of days so they will have nothing left to talk about. I suspect that is when an EA will begin if one does. They communicate exclusively through FB so I'll be all over it if it does.
> 
> If it happens, then my confrontaion with her will not be to end it, but end the marriage. I'm at that point that I need this to end one way or another. That would just be the nail in the coffin and the scissors to cut that last emotional thread I have left. She can go live with him and his mom for all I care.
> 
> I woke up today for the first time in two months not worried about the marriage, not worried about her. I don't feel like talking with her about it, I don't fell like thinking about it. She'll do what she does. If she wants to throw this all away then so be it.
> 
> I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing. I've reading MMSL and learning alot about how to be more alpha and I'm going with that.


Well the route your taking, your marriage will end. You won't talk about it, she'll keep trucking on, probably in an EA. And then you'll split.

If you want to actually think about saving your marriage, you need to provide clear expectations as to what you need to happen for it to succeed, and give her the chance to follow through.

I'm not saying you HAVE to, but if you are interested in staying married, just checking out and waiting for her to screw up won't work. A healthy marriage involved clear boundaries, and expectations that are made clear and voiced.

Though if you aren't wanting to stay married, that's cool too. Personally I think everyone should do their due diligence before bailing out though. That means that if you aren't happy in the current situation, you should at least give the other person a chance to meet your needs before you get out. In your situation, sounds like she would need to quit being so selfish, commit to the marriage 100%, and need to work on meeting some of your needs. If she doesn't want to accept, then you eject and feel good about it.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

> I love this.
> 
> Anyways, I hear what you are all saying and will keep my eyes on it but honestly, I know this guy and he 30 something and still lives with his mom. His sex rate is probably about a 5 and I am a solid 7. If she wants him then they can have each other. EA, PA whatever...
> Their only connection is and has been their love of indoor soccer. The season ends in a couple of days so they will have nothing left to talk about. I suspect that is when an EA will begin if one does. They communicate exclusively through FB so I'll be all over it if it does.
> 
> If it happens, then my confrontaion with her will not be to end it, but end the marriage. I'm at that point that I need this to end one way or another. That would just be the nail in the coffin and the scissors to cut that last emotional thread I have left. She can go live with him and his mom for all I care.
> 
> I woke up today for the first time in two months not worried about the marriage, not worried about her. I don't feel like talking with her about it, I don't fell like thinking about it. She'll do what she does. If she wants to throw this all away then so be it.
> 
> I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing. I've reading MMSL and learning alot about how to be more alpha and I'm going with that.


Dude. She is talking to another guy on fb, and playing soccer with said guy. I'm always one to work on you and wait things out, but once a third party is anywhere near.........all bets are off. My wife and I have lived through a year and a half of crap. Our first rule....no conversations privately with the opposite sex until this (marriage situation) is solved. Period. We both agreed. 

I understand you are reading about being alpha, but it takes time to become that. You are looking at 1-2 years to change into what you want. All those bad habits have to break. When the way you live becomes second nature, it is no longer forced manipulation. Right now, you are trying to become something you are not. Third parties change everything. Most marriages can survive if there is no third party. However, this time is extremely crucial to not form those relationships. Everyone has their own opinion, but not every marriage loss of love is because of another OM. It depends on the wounds they have from childhood and their capacity to forgive. 

In my opinion, your wife being up at 1:30 am talking to another guy and then hiding if from you is pure BS. She needs to GROW UP. I don't care WHAT HIS SEX RANK IS.

Also, you are using very beta traits when you say you "need" something to happen here either way.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Paulination said:


> I love this.
> 
> Anyways, I hear what you are all saying and will keep my eyes on it but honestly, I know this guy and he 30 something and still lives with his mom. His sex rate is probably about a 5 and I am a solid 7. If she wants him then they can have each other. EA, PA whatever...
> Their only connection is and has been their love of indoor soccer. The season ends in a couple of days so they will have nothing left to talk about. I suspect that is when an EA will begin if one does. They communicate exclusively through FB so I'll be all over it if it does.


You are deluding yourself. Again, your wife is hiding the fact that she is chatting with another man at 1:30 in the morning. You know damn well that she would be in your face if she caught you doing the same, and for good reason.

Nothing good can happen from these conversations. At the very best, she is continuing her cycle of staying up late, getting up late and doing playing on facebook. That is the very best scenario. Everything else is downhill from there.

Her hiding this is the start of an EA. It is a very early start, but it is clearly a secret that she is keeping from you.


----------



## Paulination

Dedicated2Her said:


> Dude. She is talking to another guy on fb, and playing soccer with said guy.


She doesn't play soccer with her. We see him every so often at a game and she talks with him on FB every now and then. I don't feel threatened by this guy in the least. A year ago I wouldn't have given two sh!ts about her talking with the guy at 1 am (and I still don't)and she wouldn't have hid it. The marriage is rocky, he asked her a soccer question late at night and she answered it which led to a very vanilla conversation about soccer statistics. She hid it because she assumed I would be pissed given how suspicious and paranoid I have been.

I'm not trying to live in denial and I see where you guys are coming from but it is just one of those situation I can't properly describe to you. If I was to lay down the law about this guy I would look absolutely pathetic in her eyes. For me to act threatened by him would absolutely cut my own balls off in her eyes and would embarrass myself.

What would Brad Pitt do? Lets say Brad Pitts wife was talking to Steve Buscemi on FB would he be threatened?

I have been working on the marriage but if she is screwed up enough to have an EA or PA with this guy they I can't help her.


----------



## eagleclaw

The fact that you dont' find him attractive or a threat is irrelevent. Have you never seen an attractive chick with an ugly guy? Women aren't as shallow as men. They are attracted to a lot of qualities.

First she is in a chat environment at 1am instead of either sleeping, or doing her husband. That's a problem. She's living a life ALTERNATE to yours, rather than with you.

Second, she knows what she is doing is wrong, or she wouldn' be defensive and angry and slamming the laptop closed rather than showing you.

Third, she changed the password etc to STOP you from discovering anything. If all was in her view OK - then she wouldn't make an effor to hide it. Maybe there was something else there she didn't want you to see.

Lastly. You talk about being manly, being alpha, leading, "what would brad pitt do". Seriously, do you think any of these things involve "letting your wife talk to other dudes in the middle of the night, and hide it from you when asked".

Let me ask you this. Let's say best case scenario - you haven't been very alpha - she is less attracted and is testing your resolve. How do you think she feels that you rationalized and dropped the fact that she is talking to guys at night and hiding it from you. To the point she feels she needs to change her passwords.

Grab your balls and squeeze hard. It hurts, Get angry, set some damn boundries in your marriage and enforce them. Care enough and be man enough to earn her respect. Enough talking about it, starting doing.

Great, now I sound like Yoda.


----------



## A Bit Much

Paulination said:


> She doesn't play soccer with her. We see him every so often at a game and she talks with him on FB every now and then. I don't feel threatened by this guy in the least. A year ago I wouldn't have given two sh!ts about her talking with the guy at 1 am (and I still don't)and she wouldn't have hid it. The marriage is rocky, he asked her a soccer question late at night and she answered it which led to a very vanilla conversation about soccer statistics. She hid it because she assumed I would be pissed given how suspicious and paranoid I have been.
> 
> I'm not trying to live in denial and I see where you guys are coming from but it is just one of those situation I can't properly describe to you. If I was to lay down the law about this guy I would look absolutely pathetic in her eyes. For me to act threatened by him would absolutely cut my own balls off in her eyes and would embarrass myself.
> 
> What would Brad Pitt do? Lets say Brad Pitts wife was talking to Steve Buscemi on FB would he be threatened?
> 
> I have been working on the marriage but if she is screwed up enough to have an EA or PA with this guy they I can't help her.


You assume quite a bit about your wife and what motivates her behavior when the truth is you have no clue.

If my husband were paranoid and suspicious about my behavior the very LAST thing I would be doing is chatting with a guy on FB at 1:30 in the morning, no matter HOW benign you seem to think the conversation is.

Also, I would NOT be getting defensive and leaving the room in a huff, then returning with the laptop and a new passoword. People are/get defensive because they are guilty. I don't know one person that would react the way your wife did if they weren't doing anything devious. It makes absolutely no sense.

You go ahead and keep telling yourself she's acting this way for NO REASON IN PARTICULAR. So many others have told you the opposite from what you've been posting all this time. It's not just about your drinking. It's not just about the way you've treated the kids. THERE IS MORE. 

No way in hell would it be 'cool' with my husband to be chatting it up at that time of night with some guy, and he's not a jealouse man by any stretch. It's inappropriate. Period. Whatever that fool wanted could have been talked about during a decent hour. He's completely disrespected your house and your marriage and you're all ... he's a 5 on the sex rate scale 

Who cares what YOU think he rates? She rates him high enough to give him attention at 1:30 in the morning... enough to blow you off and get an attitude with you. That should bother you to the tenth degree.


----------



## Paulination

She doesn't know that I know. I can see everything she does. I am not relying on her word, I can see it. Unless talking about who the goalie was in 1993 is pillow talk and what the score of the 1995 championship game was gives her orgasms, then I am not threatened.

I have listened to the advice of many on here and for the most part I agree but this guy is not what is wrong in my marriage. I will keep my eyes open and the moment it gets any more intimate than the power rankings I will pounce on it. I have to choose my battles here, I coose not to fight this particular one because I will come across weak, insecure and pathetic. Plus it will tip my hand and will cost me my method of snooping depriving me of really seeing what is going on.

I'm not in denial, fooling myself, head in the san or whatever metaphor you want use, not about this. If it is an EA or becomes one I will know it first hand and be the first to come on here and admit.


----------



## A Bit Much

> Unless talking about who the goalie was in 1993 is pillow talk and what the score of the 1995 championship game was gives her orgasms, then I am not threatened.


Do you even know how an EA starts? Commonalities. Do you exchange soccer stats with her? My guess is NO. It doesn't interest you the same way it does her.

What she does on the computer is one thing. What she does when you're not home is another. You can't keep tabs on everything she does and who she's with. A chat at 1:30am with another man about _cheese _is out of order and inappropriate. I don't understand why you dismiss it. It's another man intruding on a married woman's marital space. Whether it was 5 min or an hour it's not right. If she initiated it THAT'S even more disturbing. A man getting an email from a woman with a date/time stamp saying 1:30am tells a lot without actually saying a word. If he IS interested in her, now he knows she's thinking enough about him to disturb her sleep and cut into her time with her husband.

I've been married 10 years almost, but the GAME has never left me. If I wanted to be on the sly with my husband I could do it and he wouldn't be any wiser to what I was up to. I know what I'm capable of and when I was single I was good at it. 

It's time YOU wise up, she hasn't lost any game either. She's playing you like a fiddle right under your nose and even going as far as making you feel responsible for her crazy, whacked out behavior.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Paulination said:


> She doesn't know that I know. I can see everything she does. I am not relying on her word, I can see it. Unless talking about who the goalie was in 1993 is pillow talk and what the score of the 1995 championship game was gives her orgasms, then I am not threatened.
> 
> I have listened to the advice of many on here and for the most part I agree but this guy is not what is wrong in my marriage. I will keep my eyes open and the moment it gets any more intimate than the power rankings I will pounce on it. I have to choose my battles here, I coose not to fight this particular one because I will come across weak, insecure and pathetic. Plus it will tip my hand and will cost me my method of snooping depriving me of really seeing what is going on.
> 
> I'm not in denial, fooling myself, head in the san or whatever metaphor you want use, not about this. If it is an EA or becomes one I will know it first hand and be the first to come on here and admit.


I have no idea if this guy is the problem in your marriage. What I do know is that your wife chatting (and bonding) with another man at 1:30 in the morning and being secretive about it is a problem. Just because it is not the only or main problem does not make it not a problem. 

EA's dont usually start with sex talk. They start with common interests and bonding over them. That is what you wife is doing. Not necessarily a problem if it is out in the open, but that is not the case here. Rather, she is doing it in secret, getting defensive about it and storming out of the room rather than being open and honest about it. Why is that? 

Honest question: why do you think she reacted the way she did?


----------



## eagleclaw

You seem to need a flashing red light, a smoking gun, and a midget holding a spotlight on the transgression. 

You don't have to fly off the handle and have a battle with her. Quite the opposite.

In a case like this, calmly, and with composure - explain that it unacceptable to be chatting with other men at 1:30 in the morning. It is even more unacceptable to resist being questioned about it. It would be unaccceptable if you behaved this way, and it is equally unacceptable that she is. You will not stand for it, and if this is the kind of marriage and relationship she is content to have, and the level of interest she has in her husbands happiness.... then this relationship has run it's course.

Really, you need to start somewhere. Your not picking battles. Your enforcing relatistic boundries and expectations of marriage.


----------



## Halien

It seems like you are focusing on details instead of focusing on the problem. It really doesn't matter who she was chatting with at 1:30 AM. What matters is that she was chatting with another man at 1:30 AM. I've personally never met a man or woman who would try to defend that as acceptable if their spouse was concerned about it.

Another detail/problem shift - sure, its America, and she is free to choose any password she chooses, but the woman who pledged her future to your marriage is specifically going out of her way to flip you off here. She may not have to actually repeat the words "I do not want to be married to you" in order to not want to be married to you. 

I don't mean this critically, but more as a suggestion to back away from the situation and look at it differently. If you are researching beta/alpha approaches, the hallmark of a beta response when the marriage begins to fail is to turn it into a criminal legal analysis: She has to do XXX before YYY response is warranted. Or, she must lock lips with another man before I have a justification for intervening. You see it so often on this site that it is frustrating. Take a step back, put your alpha hat on, and look at it differently: either both of you are committed to fostering a growing relationship, or you're not. She's smart enough to understand what you mean if you tell her that you are no longer able to live in a dysfunctional marriage. And tell her that you want a strong marriage with her, but she has currently opted out. Opting out means having a password that gives the finger to a husband. Opting out means talking to another man (period) without full transparency.

She's either committed to a growing marriage, or not. What more does anyone need to know? It gets super easy when you keep it simple.

If you start arguing semantics and legal jargon, you'll lose every time. Its just a matter of whether the marriage is growing/sustaining, or not. Think about the times that the two of you were really close. Cling to that feeling of how easy it was, and how there were no rules. I guarantee you that if you pulled away from that feeling, she would make it really simple for you. She would say, " I want to feel connected". She will not present a detailed legal outline of the types of actions or behaviors that you have violated, because your response would naturally be to start picking the logic of it apart. If she says that you can talk to this ugly woman, or that unattractive woman, but not this sexy woman who would make her feel intimidated, how would that sound?


----------



## A Bit Much

> She's either committed to a growing marriage, or not. What more does anyone need to know? It gets super easy when you keep it simple.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

It really is that simple. Halien, you nailed it.


----------



## Paulination

eagleclaw said:


> You seem to need a flashing red light, a smoking gun, and a midget holding a spotlight on the transgression.
> 
> You don't have to fly off the handle and have a battle with her. Quite the opposite.


The problem is (and that I keep repeating) that I used a program to know she was IM with this guy. I can't confront her on this without exposing that. I don't want to force her underground when nothing inapropriate was said. Not even close. Everything was limited to soccer. 

I don't like that she had this conversation at 1 am. I don't like that it was a guy. But it was the first time she has spoken to any guy that late and she does stay up that late quite often. 

I will deal with this if it escallates but to blow my entire cover over soccer talk when I can hang in there and see if there is something deeper seems stupid to me. If it too late once I do confront, then I crapped out.


----------



## Chaparral

Paulination said:


> The problem is (and that I keep repeating) that I used a program to know she was IM with this guy. I can't confront her on this without exposing that. I don't want to force her underground when nothing inapropriate was said. Not even close. Everything was limited to soccer.
> 
> I don't like that she had this conversation at 1 am. I don't like that it was a guy. But it was the first time she has spoken to any guy that late and she does stay up that late quite often.
> 
> I will deal with this if it escallates but to blow my entire cover over soccer talk when I can hang in there and see if there is something deeper seems stupid to me. If it too late once I do confront, then I crapped out.


You don't have to give up your source.
Ask her who she was texting.
She refuses. 
What are you hiding.
Nothing. 
So, you were texting another man. 
I was not.
You're obviously lying. Why?
I am not.
Go get your computer
You don't trust me
How can I trust a wife who is lying in my face
I guess it must be a boyfriend.


You know what happened, you just ahveto make her confess to get her to work on the marriage.

He's a five your a seven. Most waywards trade down, at least thats what I ve seen here.


----------



## MEM2020

Halien,
Very good. And yet if I were him I would put a VAR in her car, and a GPS on her car and get something substantive and then go straight to filing and see what happens. 

While I agree overall, Pauli has not been able to give her any real emotional space. He really IS smothering her. 




Halien said:


> It seems like you are focusing on details instead of focusing on the problem. It really doesn't matter who she was chatting with at 1:30 AM. What matters is that she was chatting with another man at 1:30 AM. I've personally never met a man or woman who would try to defend that as acceptable if their spouse was concerned about it.
> 
> Another detail/problem shift - sure, its America, and she is free to choose any password she chooses, but the woman who pledged her future to your marriage is specifically going out of her way to flip you off here. She may not have to actually repeat the words "I do not want to be married to you" in order to not want to be married to you.
> 
> I don't mean this critically, but more as a suggestion to back away from the situation and look at it differently. If you are researching beta/alpha approaches, the hallmark of a beta response when the marriage begins to fail is to turn it into a criminal legal analysis: She has to do XXX before YYY response is warranted. Or, she must lock lips with another man before I have a justification for intervening. You see it so often on this site that it is frustrating. Take a step back, put your alpha hat on, and look at it differently: either both of you are committed to fostering a growing relationship, or you're not. She's smart enough to understand what you mean if you tell her that you are no longer able to live in a dysfunctional marriage. And tell her that you want a strong marriage with her, but she has currently opted out. Opting out means having a password that gives the finger to a husband. Opting out means talking to another man (period) without full transparency.
> 
> She's either committed to a growing marriage, or not. What more does anyone need to know? It gets super easy when you keep it simple.
> 
> If you start arguing semantics and legal jargon, you'll lose every time. Its just a matter of whether the marriage is growing/sustaining, or not. Think about the times that the two of you were really close. Cling to that feeling of how easy it was, and how there were no rules. I guarantee you that if you pulled away from that feeling, she would make it really simple for you. She would say, " I want to feel connected". She will not present a detailed legal outline of the types of actions or behaviors that you have violated, because your response would naturally be to start picking the logic of it apart. If she says that you can talk to this ugly woman, or that unattractive woman, but not this sexy woman who would make her feel intimidated, how would that sound?


----------



## Halien

MEM11363 said:


> Halien,
> Very good. And yet if I were him I would put a VAR in her car, and a GPS on her car and get something substantive and then go straight to filing and see what happens.
> 
> While I agree overall, Pauli has not been able to give her any real emotional space. He really IS smothering her.


I understand. I really don't want my reply to be taken as some sort of bashing, either. I really sense strong feelings of loss from the OP, and it is at this time that we often lose perspective. His gut is right. And, I think the reading about respect of mutual boundaries will help him understand why she needs some space as a matter of mutual respect.

When the marriage is no longer even sustaining itself, I do think that significant examples should be captured to really reinforce the point. I know that others will disagree, but we exalt the infidelity fog on this site to a plane usually reserved for provable forces of nature. I think the reality is somewhere less than that. Here, there seems to be no indication of a fog that will outweigh the sudden realization that divorce equals an end to an easy life of comfort. And, almost everyone understands some terminology for when a marriage is broken, and dying. It evokes a strong sense of finality. The moment that a partner declares that the marriage is broken, and they cannot accept a broken marriage, the impetus changes to the other partner to either fix it or leave. Ironically, they don't need an exhaustive list of offenses to know what they need to address, either. That one or two critical wrongs exposed by a VAR or other means only cements the need for the new boundaries regarding a broken marriage.


----------



## Paulination

Well you guys really got in my head today (and I mean that with all due respect and gratitude) so I spent an hour going through all of her FB messages and especially the ones with the guy from the other night and I got nothing. Literally 100% soccer talk. She hasn't IM'd with him or anyone else since that night so for me to focus all of my energy on that seems unprodeuctive.

I realize you guys are being protective of me and my situation and I don't want you to think that my resistance to your advice on this guy is just my way of avoiding the truth but in this case it just isn't there (at least not yet).

In MMSL I am reading about the MAP right now and learning that it is a process to bring things back instead of just a demand. I really believe in this book and intend to work the program to a T. I'll keep you posted on developments.


----------



## Paulination

BTW, as far as her thyroid is concerned (symptoms of underactivity), her test came back normal except her B12 levels, they were very low. She starts a series of once a week shots tomorrow for the next 2 months. I'm not sure what low B12 might play into anything but at least she'll be healthier in that regard.


----------



## Chaparral

If your vitamin B12 deficiency is mild, you may not have symptoms or you may not notice them. Some people may think they are just the result of growing older. As the anemia gets worse, you may:
Feel weak, tired, and lightheaded. 
Have pale skin.
Have a sore, red tongue or bleeding gums. 
Feel sick to your stomach and lose weight.
Have diarrhea or constipation. 

If the level of vitamin B12 stays low for a long time, it can damage your nerve cells. If this happens, you may have:
Numbness or tingling in your fingers and toes. 
A poor sense of balance. 
Depression. 
Dementia, a loss of mental abilities.


----------



## Hicks

I think you are going about this all wrong.
Your wife is moving away from you. There is no need to spy on her. The pattern will continue until she either cheats of if she is a semi-decent person you'll get a divorce first. There is really no reason to confirm every milestone.

Now, the reason she is moving away is she allowed some factors to snowball into this giant thing which reads to her as "I Hate my Husband". These factors are she got bored, she found fulfillment in soccer (as opposed to husband and family) and your past and present behavior has alot to do with her moving away from you.

Your past behavior of giving her everything she wants caused you to be the giver and her to be the taker, and this type of arrangement always winds up with the taker saying "I'm just not happy any more" which becomes the ultimate test for the giver. In her mind "Can he fix this one??".

Your more near term past of badly overcompensating, seeking her reassurance that everything is ok, tying to contol the situation is that last peice of the puzzle that took a small snowball and made it a glacier. This problem now has LIFE and it it what you fixate on and what she fixates on. You massively failed her test.

So as she started moving away, you started trying to PULL HER BACK with a rope.

Your strategy has to change from pulling her back with a rope to becomeing a MAGNET.

YOu have to decide that her actions and her attitude have no place in your life. You have to decide that HER ACTIONS are what is causeing problems and could ultimately destroy her family. Absolve yourself of blame and put it where it belongs, on your wife. You have to resolve to force her to fix things to get back with YOU instead of the other way around. You have to make very clear the bleakness of her, her children's lives if SHE does not work to get back in your good graces. You make it clear that you are totally ready to accept her back in your life if she chooses to return to it. You have to be confident that she could easily be replaced.

This is not a medical condition.... Don't bother with that.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Paulination said:


> Well you guys really got in my head today (and I mean that with all due respect and gratitude) so I spent an hour going through all of her FB messages and especially the ones with the guy from the other night and I got nothing. Literally 100% soccer talk. She hasn't IM'd with him or anyone else since that night so for me to focus all of my energy on that seems unprodeuctive.
> 
> I realize you guys are being protective of me and my situation and I don't want you to think that my resistance to your advice on this guy is just my way of avoiding the truth but in this case it just isn't there (at least not yet).
> 
> In MMSL I am reading about the MAP right now and learning that it is a process to bring things back instead of just a demand. I really believe in this book and intend to work the program to a T. I'll keep you posted on developments.


I think this is great. I know it helped me (and by extension my marriage) so I wish you the best. I would again recommend giving her true space by taking care of yourself.

I would confront on the late night chat. Not necessarily hard, but make the point that her behavior and secretness, coupled with desire for a separation, is causing you to question what is really going on. Put in her mind that being so secretive is not acceptable to righting your marriage, then leave it. Again, give her some real space while you are working on you.


----------



## COguy

Hicks nailed it.


----------



## Paulination

Well over the last two days things have seemed better. She is suddenly concerned about what I think of things and is extra carefull I don't get the wrong idea about things (for instance she was looking for her phone and when she found it, made sure I knew the only reason she cared was she is expecting a call from her mom which I already knew). 

She was late responding to an email I sent her about our daughters preschool and was extra apologetic about it both over the phone and in email. I haven't heard an "I'm sorry" out of her in a couple of months.

We were watching "The Big Bank Thoery" last night and there is a scene where the guys are being nerdy in the comic book store. My wife says to me "thats what I would imagine Brian does" referring to the guy she was IM with late at night. I said "yeah, he reminds me of Wolowitz just not as cool". She laughed at her friends expense which surprised me and clearly shows how we rank. 

She also changed that obnoxious FB password back to the original one.

I'm not trying to be overly optomistic but if you could have lived my life the past few months you would understand why I am pleased. I have not expressed that to her and won't as I will continue to give her emotional space and work on my alpha and self improvement. 

The soccer ends this weekend so the distraction of it all will be minimized so I am hoping that her attention will be a little more focused on our marriage. Either way, I'll let her come to me when she is ready.


----------



## deejov

Hicks said:


> I think you are going about this all wrong.
> Your wife is moving away from you. There is no need to spy on her. The pattern will continue until she either cheats of if she is a semi-decent person you'll get a divorce first. There is really no reason to confirm every milestone.
> 
> Now, the reason she is moving away is she allowed some factors to snowball into this giant thing which reads to her as "I Hate my Husband". These factors are she got bored, she found fulfillment in soccer (as opposed to husband and family) and your past and present behavior has alot to do with her moving away from you.
> 
> Your past behavior of giving her everything she wants caused you to be the giver and her to be the taker, and this type of arrangement always winds up with the taker saying "I'm just not happy any more" which becomes the ultimate test for the giver. In her mind "Can he fix this one??".
> 
> Your more near term past of badly overcompensating, seeking her reassurance that everything is ok, tying to contol the situation is that last peice of the puzzle that took a small snowball and made it a glacier. This problem now has LIFE and it it what you fixate on and what she fixates on. You massively failed her test.
> 
> So as she started moving away, you started trying to PULL HER BACK with a rope.
> 
> Your strategy has to change from pulling her back with a rope to becomeing a MAGNET.
> 
> YOu have to decide that her actions and her attitude have no place in your life. You have to decide that HER ACTIONS are what is causeing problems and could ultimately destroy her family. Absolve yourself of blame and put it where it belongs, on your wife. You have to resolve to force her to fix things to get back with YOU instead of the other way around. You have to make very clear the bleakness of her, her children's lives if SHE does not work to get back in your good graces. You make it clear that you are totally ready to accept her back in your life if she chooses to return to it. You have to be confident that she could easily be replaced.
> 
> This is not a medical condition.... Don't bother with that.



And if nothing changes... it just goes in circles. 
Anger, distance, acceptance.
Except the times of anger and distance get worse\longer, and an affair is more likely each time.


----------



## Paulination

One other thing, her facebook and overall computer usage has completely dwindled in the last week.


----------



## COguy

Paulination said:


> We were watching "The Big Bank Thoery" last night and there is a scene where the guys are being nerdy in the comic book store. My wife says to me "thats what I would imagine Brian does" referring to the guy she was IM with late at night. I said "yeah, he reminds me of Wolowitz just not as cool". She laughed at her friends expense which surprised me and clearly shows how we rank.


One more time I'll explain this. Her mentioning him at all is bad news.

Women in affairs will bad mouth the men they are in EA/PAs with. I'm not saying that is or is not going on, but it's not a "good" sign. This happened in my story and countless other's I've read. "he's so ugly" "I would never do anything with him he's gross" "he's a c*cky a$$hole!" "I hate him!" and yet.................


----------



## Chaparral

COguy said:


> One more time I'll explain this. Her mentioning him at all is bad news.
> 
> Women in affairs will bad mouth the men they are in EA/PAs with. I'm not saying that is or is not going on, but it's not a "good" sign. This happened in my story and countless other's I've read. "he's so ugly" "I would never do anything with him he's gross" "he's a c*cky a$$hole!" "I hate him!" and yet.................


Hate to say it but it is part of the script. I would at least GPS her phone/car then see if she is being honest about where she is going. I would put a var in the car too.


----------



## Paulination

COguy said:


> One more time I'll explain this. Her mentioning him at all is bad news.
> 
> Women in affairs will bad mouth the men they are in EA/PAs with. I'm not saying that is or is not going on, but it's not a "good" sign. This happened in my story and countless other's I've read. "he's so ugly" "I would never do anything with him he's gross" "he's a c*cky a$$hole!" "I hate him!" and yet.................


So mentioning him in a good way is bad, mentioning him in a bad way is bad. I'm sorry guys but I have to check out of this conversation. I have thoroughly investigated my wife on every level and she is not guilty of anything inapropriate. I have bugged her computer, checked phone and text records as well as e-mail and there is nothing. For you guys to keep pushing the EA and PA angle is to keep my paranoia level at defcon 5 which is actually hurting my chances of fixing things.

I am a paranoid pathetic mess because if she burps wrong, she is chreating on me. The more I act on the suspicions you are pushing, the worse I look.

I'm out. If I am wrong I will admit it but instead of spending my time convincing you she is not cheating, I will spend it fixing my marriage. Peace.


----------



## Chaparral

We are not tellingyou she IS cheating. The thing is we've seen this before again and agian. What we are telling you is to completely eliminate the possibility.

One poster who was reconciling found no evidence but his gut. He found his wife in the basement with the neighbor whike he was asleep on ambien. Others use secret phones or just meeet up when hubby is away.

I don't think an affair is your problem either but GPS and a VAR are cheap ways to prove it.


----------



## deejov

Just curious.. is this dude an engineer, or a computer geek?
Maybe she found the spyware.


----------



## Hicks

Paul, it would be bad for you to bail this thread.
Again, there is no reason to say "this is an affair"... The point others are trying to make is that your wife saying something about "how" another man is or behaves means her mind and thoughts are with that man. This is not a marriage-healthy place for her mind to be (thinking about how another man is). No reason to do any more digging. Her mind and heart are moving away from you.


----------



## morituri

If I remember correctly, your wife's soccer team suffered defections because one of its players, a married woman, was shamefully vaunting her affair with another man. Your wife became this woman's sole friend and then changed her views on cheating 180 degrees.

I agree that VARs and GPS would help to either confirm or deny any affair.


----------



## deejov

A slight game plan question I have had for awhile, but did not want to butt in:

The point of the spyware and everything else was ?

It seems to just SPY? Get an inside look at what she is doing and saying to people, as she isn't sharing with you?

If that's all it was, that's your call. But if there is no evidence of her cheating, how long do you intend to keep it up? Until you find something? 

Isn't there a point where you back off and stop invading, and leave it alone? It seems a bit, umm, unmoral(?) at some point. 

Secrets should not be allowed. Privacy should. Having a peek may be warranted. AFter that, what do you do?


----------



## Paulination

deejov said:


> A slight game plan question I have had for awhile, but did not want to butt in:
> 
> The point of the spyware and everything else was ?
> 
> It seems to just SPY? Get an inside look at what she is doing and saying to people, as she isn't sharing with you?
> 
> If that's all it was, that's your call. But if there is no evidence of her cheating, how long do you intend to keep it up? Until you find something?
> 
> Isn't there a point where you back off and stop invading, and leave it alone? It seems a bit, umm, unmoral(?) at some point.
> 
> Secrets should not be allowed. Privacy should. Having a peek may be warranted. AFter that, what do you do?


I spied because there was no logical explanation I could find for her behavior. I spied for 2 reasons, vet out an affair, or get insight to her thinking with the assumption she is not telling me what is truly going on.

My wife is not that sophisticated to go that underground. I have a screenshot program that lets me see exactly what she is doing and eliminates the threat of her deleting messages. She has no money. there is no secret cell phone, the mileage on the car is exactly as it should be for what she does and her time is all accounted for. If she was having an affair it would be extremely inconvenient.

It would have to look something like this: since she takes care of my 3 year old it would have to be during the time they are together. The OM would have to sneak in the back porch into our bedroom while my wife locks our little girl out. They would have to fVck fairly quickly since my girl routinely walks into the room and would be upset to find a locked door. The OM would then have to exit the back unseen by my 3 year old since she would surely mention "mommies friend" id she saw someone. If she took my 3 YO to OM's house then my girl would also surely speak of "mommies friend".

These nefariious activities would have to be arranged without a cell phone, home phone or computer. Basically a carrier pigeon at best.

The sad thing is that I have gotten so paranoid from this place that I rejected the logic behind my thinking and came home at the only time an affair would even be possiblt unannouned only to find her running on the treadmill, just as she says she is. I end up looking like needy a$$hole because I have to make a lame excuse for being there.

How about after her soccer game? Well, I have seen her teams and since this is rec. soccer the men are in far worse shape then me and out sex rank all of them. I am a fit, good looking hard working business man with a salary large enough to support my wife not working and to support her toys and hobbies. But even if that wasn't enough, the latest she has ever been after a soccer game is 1 hour so an affair would have to be slammed in there when they are both sweaty and smelly.

I have been to her games. It takes 1/2 hour just to re-hydrate afterwards and remove all of the pads.

How about an EA? Well once again it would have to be done without a cell phone, home phone or computer. If they are that good, they can have each other.

My wife and I have problems, no doubt. I can't tell if she is fantasizing about other men nor can I control it. But for me to be re-directed constantly to this angle is now foolish.

I'm just venting and I do appreciate what you all have said. I realize you guys know your stuff and far be it from me to think I know any better. I don't know what the problem in my marriage is, I just know what it is not. 

I was hoping you could respect that I know at least that much.


----------



## Paulination

deejov said:


> Just curious.. is this dude an engineer, or a computer geek?
> Maybe she found the spyware.


She hasn't found jack. This guy is an unemployed geek living with mommy who's whole life revolves aroung FB and soccer.

I'm embarrassed that I even considered she could possibly have an EA with him. She is also embarrased that I could even think that and ofcourse once again, I look like a pathetic ba$tard for even suggesting it.

All it ended up doing was insult my wife and drop me down a number on my sex rank which still places me at least 3 above his.


----------



## desert-rose

Just reading about your experience looking into the thyroid to rule it out before working on other problems. I wanted to share part of my own story as encouragement or supportiveness to you. I allowed myself to blame most of my estranged husband's bad behavior on his thyroid -- that includes his cheating, verbal and emotional abuse, and his using me for everything while treating me like a doormat; while I can see that his out of whack thyroid contributed to his inability to control his impulses and and anger in moments where things flared up and can forgive that because of the illness, his choice to check out of the marriage to cheat out of boredom (EAs first, then PAs for casual sex), his choice to emotionally disengage from me as a way to justify his cheating and to chase thrills outside the marriage while treating me badly and making me bend over backwards not to make waves so I wouldn't pick up on his misdeeds was not caused by the thyroid but by his own selfishness. Something is going on with your wife, but please don't blame it all on out of whack hormones. She may not be cheating, but something is going on with her emotionally and you should get her into counseling to see if you guys can work it out. If not, this is NOT going to get any better any time soon. 

I wish you luck. 6 months of separation and I see no improvement in my situation, just a downward spiral that's taken pain and begun turning it into anger and impatience from me.

Lots of good advice throughout your thread. Don't be Mr Nice Guy Doormat. Kick her off the pedestal. Stand up for yourself and take charge (but do it compassionately).

Edit: caught up on more of your thread. My STBXH/WH/EH chose to cheat on me with gutter trash even though I paid all the bills, supported all his hobbies and dreams, worked and cooked, and did everything for him while he sat around the house jerking off to porn and mistresses and hid it very very well -- and he didn't even have the decency to trade upwards! That insulted me worst of all; I could handle him cheating with someone better, but with anonymous online skanks? And they were doing it in code so it looked like their FB banter was innocent when it all meant other things (found some deleted emails about the code). That was a low blow. With this in mind, I think whatever is going on with her has less to do with you and more to do with herself; she's got some problems, clearly. If she's having an EA, it probably means she wasn't cheating to leave you but cheating to cake-eat conveniently. If it's not an EA, then something is causing her to behave in this weird way and you have got to try to find out what it is instead of rug-sweeping it or it will resurface again. And, don't think that it's all your fault or blame yourself for the problems. 

I'm sorry for what you're going through whether an unlikely affair is at the bottom of it or something else entirely, it still sucks. Good Luck. Hang in there.


----------



## Paulination

morituri said:


> If I remember correctly, your wife's soccer team suffered defections because one of its players, a married woman, was shamefully vaunting her affair with another man. Your wife became this woman's sole friend and then changed her views on cheating 180 degrees.
> 
> I agree that VARs and GPS would help to either confirm or deny any affair.


Heres what happenned. A friend of hers from high school joined the team. The friend and my wife became close again after years of not seeing each other. The friend has two other close friends (husband and wife) who joined the team. Everything was rosy and they all developed into a championship (at the rec level) caliber team. My wife was etremely proud since she is the one who put the team together.

This friend of her is married to a guy 15 years older then her and is from a nationality where it is common to believe that a wife is a servant to her husband and treated her accordingly. The woman, despite her moral convictions started an affair with another team member. When the affair was discovered, the husband and wife friend of hers turned on her as their religious beliefs forbid this sort of thing. They gave an ultimatum that either the friend and her paramour go, or they go. The team went into chaos and my wife got depressed.

At this exact time my wife turned on me and my whole saga began. She embraced her cheating friend because she felt bad that she was so rejected. I believe my wife drew parrallels (I am 10 years older than my wife) between this womans problems in her marriage and our own. I believe my wife feels controlled because she relies on me 100% for support so she feels she has to run everything by me before acting. Mind you this is the dynamic that SHE created. SHE wanted to stay at home. SHE wanted to give up her job. I only supported her wishes and worked my a$$ of to make it happen.

Because she embraced this friend and because I could not see the logic in her displeasure I exhausted the cheating angle.


----------



## desert-rose

Paulination said:


> The team went into chaos and my wife got depressed.
> 
> At this exact time my wife turned on me and my whole saga began.


Do you think that maybe your wife is just depressed and confused? Maybe she is re-evaluating her choices in life and doesn't really know what she wants and is just trying to figure things out. It sounds like she took this situation pretty hard. If she sees you as controlling, it might be hard to get her to open up to you about her thoughts and why she has checked out of the marriage because it might be something she is using to feel a sense of power or self-control. Maybe the way you can get her to open up to you is by showing her that you're NOT controlling her, maybe encouraging her to do things that allow her to feel more strong and confident and then maybe she would be more willing to give you some of herself because she would not see it as a threat to herself or something that she gave out of obligation...just a thought.


----------



## chaos

Why not simply ask her if she wants a divorce so she will have no one to answer to?


----------



## Complexity

^^ 

She doesn't want a divorce, but she's "not happy".


Paul, it's safe to assume that your wife is not cheating, I agree with you there. With that settled where do you intend to go from here?


----------



## deejov

Paulination said:


> I spied because there was no logical explanation I could find for her behavior. I spied for 2 reasons, vet out an affair, or get insight to her thinking with the assumption she is not telling me what is truly going on.
> 
> My wife is not that sophisticated to go that underground. I have a screenshot program that lets me see exactly what she is doing and eliminates the threat of her deleting messages. She has no money. there is no secret cell phone, the mileage on the car is exactly as it should be for what she does and her time is all accounted for. If she was having an affair it would be extremely inconvenient.
> 
> It would have to look something like this: since she takes care of my 3 year old it would have to be during the time they are together. The OM would have to sneak in the back porch into our bedroom while my wife locks our little girl out. They would have to fVck fairly quickly since my girl routinely walks into the room and would be upset to find a locked door. The OM would then have to exit the back unseen by my 3 year old since she would surely mention "mommies friend" id she saw someone. If she took my 3 YO to OM's house then my girl would also surely speak of "mommies friend".
> 
> These nefariious activities would have to be arranged without a cell phone, home phone or computer. Basically a carrier pigeon at best.
> 
> The sad thing is that I have gotten so paranoid from this place that I rejected the logic behind my thinking and came home at the only time an affair would even be possiblt unannouned only to find her running on the treadmill, just as she says she is. I end up looking like needy a$$hole because I have to make a lame excuse for being there.
> 
> How about after her soccer game? Well, I have seen her teams and since this is rec. soccer the men are in far worse shape then me and out sex rank all of them. I am a fit, good looking hard working business man with a salary large enough to support my wife not working and to support her toys and hobbies. But even if that wasn't enough, the latest she has ever been after a soccer game is 1 hour so an affair would have to be slammed in there when they are both sweaty and smelly.
> 
> I have been to her games. It takes 1/2 hour just to re-hydrate afterwards and remove all of the pads.
> 
> How about an EA? Well once again it would have to be done without a cell phone, home phone or computer. If they are that good, they can have each other.
> 
> My wife and I have problems, no doubt. I can't tell if she is fantasizing about other men nor can I control it. But for me to be re-directed constantly to this angle is now foolish.
> 
> I'm just venting and I do appreciate what you all have said. I realize you guys know your stuff and far be it from me to think I know any better. I don't know what the problem in my marriage is, I just know what it is not.
> 
> I was hoping you could respect that I know at least that much.


Taken the wrong way 
My question was merely... if you are ruling out an affair, and you don't find evidence, what do you do? Do you stop peeking? Seriously, have not seen this on here before. 
Game plan question for those of us who are reading and in a similar situation. How long do you keep up the spyware? When does it become... intrusive.


----------



## Chaparral

She says she's unhappy, does she say she's bored? Does she indicate she is tired of being a SAHM?

Have you checked out side effects of any meds including birth control?


----------



## Chaparral

deejov said:


> Taken the wrong way
> My question was merely... if you are ruling out an affair, and you don't find evidence, what do you do? Do you stop peeking? Seriously, have not seen this on here before.
> Game plan question for those of us who are reading and in a similar situation. How long do you keep up the spyware? When does it become... intrusive.


If I had an unhappy wife, who cut me off I would use every tool in the book to find clues as to what is going on.

For daily grind this turned into a two year sex drought.

A woman has as much of a need for sex as a man. The difference is when things go really bad they will cut you off where a man will keep the sex going evenif things are going bad. She is sending Pauli a message but womn't explain it.
Could be physical and she may not know what the problem is but I doubt it.

Hope this isn't leading up to the ILYBINILWY speech. Looks like things are going better since he has with drawn a bit. Both spouses in a marriage pay better attn. When they are not 100% sure of the other spouse's total commitment. If your spouse isn't somewhat jealous you could be in deep trouble.


----------



## Paulination

Complexity said:


> ^^
> 
> She doesn't want a divorce, but she's "not happy".
> 
> 
> Paul, it's safe to assume that your wife is not cheating, I agree with you there. With that settled where do you intend to go from here?


I'm following the MAP and thats about it. Upped my alpha quite a bit over the last couple of weeks and stopped taking **** from her. When she does something wrong, inconsiderate or rude (like ignoring e-mails) I call her on it. She's suddenly apologizing for stuff which is very out of charecter.

We got into the conversation last night about marriage and vows and I told her what Athol Kay says about sex and the vows (in my own words) and out of nowhere she says "we can have sex anytime you want to". Ok, since when? Last I heard she didn't have a sex drive or want sex. Though she didn't say "I want sex" she didn't qualify the statement either to suggest she was just doing it.

Whatever. I didn't make much of a deal out of it and though I won't turn her down if she initiates, I am not going to initiate anytime soon. I'm going to stick with the MAP, keep pumping iron, NOT talk about the relationship unless she brings it up (like last night) and work late. 

I want this marriage to become healthier than ever and as long as she actively works on it with me, then I will stick with her as long as it takes. I have made two things crystal clear to her: I will not stay in a sexless marriage and I will not live in limbo.

All of her soccer distractions end this weekend for the next 8 months and so does the friendship with her soccer friends (talking about the local pro-team, not her rec. team). It will be the perfect time for her to start focusing a little on us. If she does, then I'm all in. If she doesn't then I'll some decisions to make.


----------



## Chaparral

Just some thoughts.

In the beginning although she didn't say it to you she told the girlfriend the equivalent af the ILUBNILWU. 

She says you drink to much and say things when you are drunk. You say you did not say them. Exactly how much do you drink and how often?


She says she needs space, you give her some and things have gotten better. Do not discuss the relationship unless she starts it. Keep answers short honest and pleasant. Your too old for anger issues.

If she doesn't play video games, she may think they are unmanly. Is she just scrapbooking because you are otherwise occupied?

Facebook makes her wonder what you are up to when you show an interest in it.. Thats good.

How often do you take her out on dates?

Do you ever go alone or take the kids to the soccer games?

Keep up the distance, but be nice be strong, show absolutely no anger. Work out a lot. Don't over analyze her every move. 

Most improtantly, when she asks you what is wrong ask her what she means. She says something like you are acting funny Tell her she is acting like she has one foot out the door. You are just protecting yourself and you also have one foot out the door. Tell her she says she is unhappy, tell her she basically gave you the ILUBNILWU speech(she won't remember she didn't say it directly to you) , tell her she said she wanted a separation and although nothing was wrong with her sex drive she sure didn't want sex with you. What does she think might be wrong with your attitude. 

SHOW NO EMOTION like you are going to have to cut out a nasty growth. 

See how she answers this . Do not argue. If she has nothing to offer let her think about it awhile.

Have you read MMSL yet?


----------



## MEM2020

Paul - the advice below is gold....




chapparal said:


> Just some thoughts.
> 
> In the beginning although she didn't say it to you she told the girlfriend the equivalent af the ILUBNILWU.
> 
> She says you drink to much and say things when you are drunk. You say you did not say them. Exactly how much do you drink and how often?
> 
> 
> She says she needs space, you give her some and things have gotten better. Do not discuss the relationship unless she starts it. Keep answers short honest and pleasant. Your too old for anger issues.
> 
> If she doesn't play video games, she may think they are unmanly. Is she just scrapbooking because you are otherwise occupied?
> 
> Facebook makes her wonder what you are up to when you show an interest in it.. Thats good.
> 
> How often do you take her out on dates?
> 
> Do you ever go alone or take the kids to the soccer games?
> 
> Keep up the distance, but be nice be strong, show absolutely no anger. Work out a lot. Don't over analyze her every move.
> 
> Most improtantly, when she asks you what is wrong ask her what she means. She says something like you are acting funny Tell her she is acting like she has one foot out the door. You are just protecting yourself and you also have one foot out the door. Tell her she says she is unhappy, tell her she basically gave you the ILUBNILWU speech(she won't remember she didn't say it directly to you) , tell her she said she wanted a separation and although nothing was wrong with her sex drive she sure didn't want sex with you. What does she think might be wrong with your attitude.
> 
> SHOW NO EMOTION like you are going to have to cut out a nasty growth.
> 
> See how she answers this . Do not argue. If she has nothing to offer let her think about it awhile.
> 
> Have you read MMSL yet?


----------



## Paulination

chapparal said:


> Just some thoughts.
> 
> In the beginning although she didn't say it to you she told the girlfriend the equivalent af the ILUBNILWU.
> 
> She says you drink to much and say things when you are drunk. You say you did not say them. Exactly how much do you drink and how often?
> 
> 
> She says she needs space, you give her some and things have gotten better. Do not discuss the relationship unless she starts it. Keep answers short honest and pleasant. Your too old for anger issues.
> 
> If she doesn't play video games, she may think they are unmanly. Is she just scrapbooking because you are otherwise occupied?
> 
> Facebook makes her wonder what you are up to when you show an interest in it.. Thats good.
> 
> How often do you take her out on dates?
> 
> Do you ever go alone or take the kids to the soccer games?
> 
> Keep up the distance, but be nice be strong, show absolutely no anger. Work out a lot. Don't over analyze her every move.
> 
> Most improtantly, when she asks you what is wrong ask her what she means. She says something like you are acting funny Tell her she is acting like she has one foot out the door. You are just protecting yourself and you also have one foot out the door. Tell her she says she is unhappy, tell her she basically gave you the ILUBNILWU speech(she won't remember she didn't say it directly to you) , tell her she said she wanted a separation and although nothing was wrong with her sex drive she sure didn't want sex with you. What does she think might be wrong with your attitude.
> 
> SHOW NO EMOTION like you are going to have to cut out a nasty growth.
> 
> See how she answers this . Do not argue. If she has nothing to offer let her think about it awhile.
> 
> Have you read MMSL yet?


After 7 pm at night I have a couple of rum and cokes to relax. I certainly don't get drunk. She is a night owl because she can get up when she wants and likes to have conversations at night in bed when I am tired. That is why I forget things sometimes, not the alcohol.

The video games are sporadic at most. Her interest in scrapbooking took hold when she started to stay at home and wanted to make a baby album. She made the album beautifully and the scrapbooking hobby took hold. We used to actually play video games together and occasionally still do.

We don't go out often because she doesn't trust anyone to watch the kids but her mom so we have limited opportunities.

I think her sex drive is not exclusively gone to me though she said that. She has a vibrator that she enjoys that has collected dust for as long as I have. She said that to me because she was pissed that I said it to the doctor. She admitted that much to me last night.

I have read MMSL hence my references to following the MAP.


----------



## Chaparral

Sounds like things may be getting better simply because you are doing things to make her feel she can no longer take you for granted.

How is the in house separation panning out. It doesn't look like its actually taken effect. Are you sleeping in separtate rooms?

"We don't go out often because she doesn't trust anyone to watch the kids but her mom so we have limited opportunities." This came as close to killing may marriage as it could have without a divorce. You HAVE to figure a way around this. Without dating and alone time you don't have a marriage. While she may not see it, I think this is the elephant in the room. Trust me I've been there. She would not find a sitter and I got the blame. Except for her mom who baby sit for us during the day.


----------



## Chaparral

You also need to work on her to get her sleep schedule inline with yours(since you are the one with a job). Dialy Grind has the same problem with dif schedules.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Paulination said:


> She hasn't found jack. This guy is an unemployed geek living with mommy who's whole life revolves aroung FB and soccer.
> 
> I'm embarrassed that I even considered she could possibly have an EA with him. She is also embarrased that I could even think that and ofcourse once again, I look like a pathetic ba$tard for even suggesting it.
> 
> All it ended up doing was insult my wife and drop me down a number on my sex rank which still places me at least 3 above his.


I don't agree. There are a number of stories here about women who have affaired down. You can't judge the possibility solely on how you perceive the other man.

Saying all of that, I want to be clear that I have no idea if she is in an EA or not. While it sounds like she is not, it does look like she is on the cusp of one. She is doing things (secret chats late at night with another man) that can only lead to no good. Even without an EA going on, these are issues and behaviors that you need to address. Secrets like that are not good for spouses. To me, this is part of the current issues with your wife, so it is critical that you don't dismiss them merely because your wife is not in an EA.


----------



## COguy

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't agree. There are a number of stories here about women who have affaired down. You can't judge the possibility solely on how you perceive the other man.
> 
> Saying all of that, I want to be clear that I have no idea if she is in an EA or not. While it sounds like she is not, it does look like she is on the cusp of one. She is doing things (secret chats late at night with another man) that can only lead to no good. Even without an EA going on, these are issues and behaviors that you need to address. Secrets like that are not good for spouses. To me, this is part of the current issues with your wife, so it is critical that you don't dismiss them merely because your wife is not in an EA.


TAG nailed it


----------



## Paulination

UPDATE: For those who want one....

The wife has been nicer to me as of late and is sexually responsive to me. She mentioned a while back that she will have sex with me anytime that I want but I took that statement cautiously but sure enough, when I took her up on the offer it was good. I was half expecting her to act like she was a corpse (for which I already had it in my mind that I would certainly not go through with it) but she was very responsive. So much for no sex drive.

I have tuned up my alpha and have been working out and she is responding but there are still some issues and I am afraid they are mine.

You see, I am too sensitive and I read into everything. I'm reading into stuff my wife never even thought of and it is making me look like an idiot. It is causing fights which is huting my cause. I never was this way before she hit me with the "I'm not happy, I don't feel the same way about you" routine. Now she is trying to convince me that I read too much into what she said and it really was not as serious as it sounded.

The one friend that I caught her running her mouth with (keylogger) is now coming to visit for two weeks and I am scared that she will try to poison the relationship. I have no evidence of this but I sense it. It really isn't even her fault, my wife likes venting to her and through that I come out looking like the worlds biggest a$$.

We got into a fight tonight because I told my wife that I wanted to take her and her friend out to dinner. After she probed me awhile I came clean and said that I wanted the friend to get to know me before my wife threw me to the wolves.

Opened a can of worms I didn't mean to and now I really do feel like an a$$.


----------



## Chaparral

Paulination said:


> UPDATE: For those who want one....
> 
> The wife has been nicer to me as of late and is sexually responsive to me. She mentioned a while back that she will have sex with me anytime that I want but I took that statement cautiously but sure enough, when I took her up on the offer it was good. I was half expecting her to act like she was a corpse (for which I already had it in my mind that I would certainly not go through with it) but she was very responsive. So much for no sex drive.
> 
> I have tuned up my alpha and have been working out and she is responding but there are still some issues and I am afraid they are mine.
> 
> You see, I am too sensitive and I read into everything. I'm reading into stuff my wife never even thought of and it is making me look like an idiot. It is causing fights which is huting my cause. I never was this way before she hit me with the "I'm not happy, I don't feel the same way about you" routine. Now she is trying to convince me that I read too much into what she said and it really was not as serious as it sounded.
> 
> The one friend that I caught her running her mouth with (keylogger) is now coming to visit for two weeks and I am scared that she will try to poison the relationship. I have no evidence of this but I sense it. It really isn't even her fault, my wife likes venting to her and through that I come out looking like the worlds biggest a$$.
> 
> We got into a fight tonight because I told my wife that I wanted to take her and her friend out to dinner. After she probed me awhile I came clean and said that I wanted the friend to get to know me before my wife threw me to the wolves.
> 
> Opened a can of worms I didn't mean to and now I really do feel like an a$$.


Read some of Daily Grinds thread. He gets himself worked up and immediately throws himself under the bus.

Its so beta to not have self control and show weakness. You just have to work on being silent when necessary. Its way better to leave her wondering than to open your mouth and take away all doubt.


----------



## Paulination

So I have stepped back a little and looked at my situation and am proceeding with the following in mind. If you need additional details as to why I feel this way, please ask.

First, the relationship has been different over the last couple of weeks to a month. Really ever since I upped the alpha and stopped taking crap all of the time. Additionally, my situation no longer saddens me (just pisses me off from time to time) and she senses that.

I have been keeping tabs on her internet use still and she does occasionally still run her mouth about our situation to one particular friend in a way that ofcourse is one sided and makes me look like an a$$. BUT, heres the deal with that. 1) It is only to this one friend and the friend lives 2000 miles away which tells me she feels safe to vent to her knowing that I will never get close enough (more on that later) for this to get wierd. When I read some of the adjectives she uses to the friend such as "I don't feel the same way about him, something is missing, I feel trapped, I can't/won't go anywhere because he'll give me the third degree, benn pretending the last 3 to 4 years, can't take much more...." I have found creative ways to work them into a discussion without disclosing that I actually read them coming out of her mouth. When asked, she denies feeling any of this to me.

As a matter of fact, she is now backing off of her original "I'm not happy anymore" claim of a couple of months ago which started all of this in the first place. Now she like "look, I was unhappy about a couple of things that have been going on for years. I just need a little time to work it out". It is coming across as far less desperate a situation as it once seemed.

She's also brought sex back into the equation. She said to me last week that we could have sex any time I wanted so I tested the theory and she has delivered. Not in a "dead fish" sort of way but actually participating. This satisfies my first non-negotioable standard of not living in a sexless marriage.

She has stopped late night IM or any late night computer usage at all. BUT, is overly protective of the IM she does do by routinely erasing parts of conversations she doesn't want to run the risk of me seeing.

The sense that I am getting is that in her mind the marriage was never really in trouble but she wanted me to believe it was. She held onto to this strategy until it started backfiring with me becoming more assertive, setting non-negotiable standards and not being afraid to confront her un BS. I also have been straightening myself out physically and working the MAP. 

Now she is acting protective towards maintaining the marriage in ways I am not supposed to see.

One last note, her long distance friend is arriving tomorrow for a two week visit with family and my wife is going to be spending time with her. She is purposefully trying to make sure I am not in any plans. She even lied last night and said her friend told her that she was there to see my wife and not her husband. I asked my wife "who would say something like that and can you imagining talking about her husband that way if you were visiting?" I also told her that the friend was rude since all I wanted to do was take them out to dinner and they could see each other any time they wanted after that without me. She then confessed that her friend didn't actually say that and that my wife made that up out of anger. She says she hasn't extended the invitation to her friend because she KNOWS she will say no. I think she is afraid her friend will say yes.

Should be an interesting 2 weeks. For the record as always, there is no EA or PA going on and the EA that everyone thought was coming with soccer friend was not to be. She routinely blocks him from seeing her online now that soccer season is over.

Any input would be appreciated as to what the heck is going on.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Paulination- Please stop reading her stuff. Now, that you know there is no affair, stop. She is wearing a mask. I saw the same crap you are seeing. My wife's mask did not come off until we got into a month of weekly therapy. Once the truth about her "feelings" came out, it was shut down time.

She has tons of fears and what she is trying to do is keep you placated until she figures out what to do. She is ok having sex because, well, sex can be fun once you get into it. However, once the mask comes off, and she verbalizes those interior feelings to you, most likely the sex will shut down. You just have to keep on your path and just work on you. Sure, be nice to her, be friends and coparents with her. Hell, take her out and screw her brains out. But, just know that she is evaluating inside and playing a game of poker.

My wife said the other day (two weeks ago)that she is still "miserable" and still "wants" me to move out, and she "wants" a divorce. I say, "Ok, file the paperwork, and I will sign it." Two weeks ago. Not another word has been spoken about it. In fact, she is strangely nice to me. I'm not falling for it. I moving on with me. Working hard to become the best me possible while I'm still in difficult circumstances. Because if I can do it in this environment, I can handle anything within a relationship when all is said and done.

Your wife does feel trapped. You take care of her, and losing that security is a scary proposition.


----------



## Chaparral

Dedicated2Her said:


> Paulination- Please stop reading her stuff. Now, that you know there is no affair, stop. She is wearing a mask. I saw the same crap you are seeing. My wife's mask did not come off until we got into a month of weekly therapy. Once the truth about her "feelings" came out, it was shut down time.
> 
> She has tons of fears and what she is trying to do is keep you placated until she figures out what to do. She is ok having sex because, well, sex can be fun once you get into it. However, once the mask comes off, and she verbalizes those interior feelings to you, most likely the sex will shut down. You just have to keep on your path and just work on you. Sure, be nice to her, be friends and coparents with her. Hell, take her out and screw her brains out. But, just know that she is evaluating inside and playing a game of poker.
> 
> My wife said the other day (two weeks ago)that she is still "miserable" and still "wants" me to move out, and she "wants" a divorce. I say, "Ok, file the paperwork, and I will sign it." Two weeks ago. Not another word has been spoken about it. In fact, she is strangely nice to me. I'm not falling for it. I moving on with me. Working hard to become the best me possible while I'm still in difficult circumstances. Because if I can do it in this environment, I can handle anything within a relationship when all is said and done.
> 
> Your wife does feel trapped. You take care of her, and losing that security is a scary proposition.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I agree but am definitely not certain. Looks like she's playing you. She's confiding in the only person she knows she can depend on not to rat her out, accidently or otherwise. Thats why she doesn't want you around her friend, enough to start lying about it. 

Hop you're printing this stuff off. Sooner or later your going to have to confront this situation.

Keep following her emails and keep working on yourself if only for your next relationship. Do not keep talking about your relationship as long as she is trashing it to any other people. Be nice and wonderful but in a way she doesn't think you are being fooled or are on board with her. When she tells you things are ok and you see her writing the opposite just act like you don't think she is telling the truth. Like you can tell when she is lying.

""I don't feel the same way about him, something is missing, I feel trapped, I can't/won't go anywhere because he'll give me the third degree, benn pretending the last 3 to 4 years, can't take much more...." "

I mean this says it all. She just can't figure a way out.


----------



## Paulination

chapparal said:


> :When she tells you things are ok and you see her writing the opposite just act like you don't think she is telling the truth. Like you can tell when she is lying.


This is what I have been doing. I figure out a way to bring up some of the garbage she has written under the guise that I "sense" this or that is an issue and she becomes extremely defensive, assures me she doesn't feel that way and wants to know "where is this coming from". She then starts crying blah, blah, blah .... and it is almost all I can do not to laugh at the hysterics. Sick dynamic, not my doing.

Where is it coming from? It is coming from her just writing it a half hour ago. She has a poker face to. She's in there smiling away and typeing this crap which is another reason I think it is crap.


----------



## Chaparral

Paulination said:


> This is what I have been doing. I figure out a way to bring up some of the garbage she has written under the guise that I "sense" this or that is an issue and she becomes extremely defensive, assures me she doesn't feel that way and wants to know "where is this coming from". She then starts crying blah, blah, blah .... and it is almost all I can do not to laugh at the hysterics. Sick dynamic, not my doing.
> 
> Where is it coming from? It is coming from her just writing it a half hour ago. She has a poker face to. She's in there smiling away and typeing this crap which is another reason I think it is crap.


Do you mean she doesn't believe what she's writing to her friend or you don't believe what she's telling you? Good poker face is a nice way to say she can lie with a sraight face. That makes her a hard case thats well practiced at lying.


----------



## COguy

It's hard to say what someone's motivation for not being honest is. If I'm being honest, I did the same thing to my wife, still do sometimes (it's something I have to work on). I'll be pissed off or disappointed or depressed about my marriage in some way, and not wanting to upset her, I'll just tell her nothing's wrong.

Before her EA, I would do similar stuff to a friend that your wife is doing. Say how miserable I was but tell my wife everything was fine.

I have no idea what motivation your wife has for saying this stuff to her friend, but you better believe she means it. I can think of 1000 reasons someone would hide their sad feelings from their spouse, but I can't think of any reasons why someone would lie about how horrible they feel about their marriage if they didn't.

I'd just keep doing what you're doing. Play it cool. Work on yourself. See if she starts to come around. But DEFINITELY be on the lookout for other guys to come in the picture. Her mental attitude is ripe for being swept away in the fairy tales of an affair.

And for the love of God don't give up your hand. You're doing it exactly right, don't let her know you know what's going on.


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## Chaparral

I can't remember what you are doing re MC.


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## Paulination

I don't know why she embellishes our problems with this friend. I feel as if she simply enjoys the drama and feels confident she can be that way with her and not have it come back on her. I could be wrong but definatley not in denial.

She can be talking about how she is pretending in the relationship while I am walking through the room with her smiling at me. Then I find a way to call her on it and here come the water works as she desperately tries to convince me that it is all in my head.

As far as MC, she went once by herself, my first appointment is coming up and then we'll go together.

BTW, she's called me three times today to chat about basic stuff for the first time in two months.


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## Complexity

You need to keep on the track you're on HARD. I think she's starting to snap out of her nonsense and beginning to realise that there's so much someone can put up with. I want to tell you to call her out on the stuff she's saying about you but that would make you look like you've been spying on her but it's definitely BS that she's doing this, I wouldn't put up with it to be honest.


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## Paulination

We've had a beautiful evening tonight. Went to our 6 year olds baseball game and had a nice comraderie with other parents. Had nachos, a couple of laughs and picked up pizza on the way home. Still not out of the woods I'm sure but certainly a nice diversion from where we have been.

The last thing I want to do tonight is fight and I haven't been able to say that for a long time.


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## Chaparral

I don't think fighting is in the 180 or MAP is it? You don't save a marriage by fighting. Thats the last thing you should be doing unless you're just trying to run her off. It takes two to fight and you don't have to respond to anothers barbs. Be above that, be strong.


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## Dedicated2Her

> We've had a beautiful evening tonight. Went to our 6 year olds baseball game and had a nice comraderie with other parents. Had nachos, a couple of laughs and picked up pizza on the way home. Still not out of the woods I'm sure but certainly a nice diversion from where we have been.
> 
> The last thing I want to do tonight is fight and I haven't been able to say that for a long time.



Wow. Well, you know where to start. Remove your expectations of her and work on the friendship and be coparents. Somewhere in your marriage, you lost a connection and it starts with the friendship. But, take this for what it is, a moment. Be thankful for it and move on.

We have these "moments" frequently. I used to get excited about them. However, when you do your expectations for her to change become higher. No expectations of her, but high expectations for you. That is how you become the best you possible.


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## A Bit Much

Paulination said:


> I don't know why she embellishes our problems with this friend. I feel as if she simply enjoys the drama and feels confident she can be that way with her and not have it come back on her. I could be wrong but definatley not in denial.
> 
> She can be talking about how she is pretending in the relationship while I am walking through the room with her smiling at me. Then I find a way to call her on it and here come the water works as she desperately tries to convince me that it is all in my head.
> 
> As far as MC, she went once by herself, my first appointment is coming up and then we'll go together.
> 
> BTW, she's called me three times today to chat about basic stuff for the first time in two months.


You really think it's embellishing? How condescending of you.

Your wife indeed wants out. She has no job, no way to support herself or her child on her own though, so that makes that dream a little out of reach doesn't it? She's not just telling her friend these things about you to pass the time or entertain herself. I think it's pompous of you to think she's not serious. She's very good at hiding how she feels from you and deflecting (waterworks when pressed). You would be good at it too if you knew you had no other options but to tolerate what you have instead of run away with garbage bags full of your clothes to live god knows where.

Bottom line is, you want this marriage and she doesn't. She can pretend and fake it till she makes it as long as she needs to. Woe to you the day when she figures out how to do it and not have to depend on you to help her in any way. She's been trying to figure out a way for 3 or 4 years now. Someone who works that hard on looking for an escape finds one.


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## Dedicated2Her

> You really think it's embellishing? How condescending of you.
> 
> Your wife indeed wants out. She has no job, no way to support herself or her child on her own though, so that makes that dream a little out of reach doesn't it? She's not just telling her friend these things about you to pass the time or entertain herself. I think it's pompous of you to think she's not serious. She's very good at hiding how she feels from you and deflecting (waterworks when pressed). You would be good at it too if you knew you had no other options but to tolerate what you have instead of run away with garbage bags full of your clothes to live god knows where.
> 
> Bottom line is, you want this marriage and she doesn't. She can pretend and fake it till she makes it as long as she needs to. Woe to you the day when she figures out how to do it and not have to depend on you to help her in any way. She's been trying to figure out a way for 3 or 4 years now. Someone who works that hard on looking for an escape finds one.


Absolutely. That is why I emphasize wholeheartedly that YOU need to become new. It starts NOW. Work on you as hard as you can. That way, she starts to see the new you and then can choose to reengage in the marriage or walk when she does figure out how to do it. At that time, though, it is HER decision. SHE has to live with the fact that she didn't take responsibility for her part in the relationship. She will have to tell the kids, "Mommy just wanted out." While you, will be able to tell your kids, "I did everything I could, and you can point to things that you did." You will create a legacy for yourself with your children. They will see honor and courage in you instead of just a "divorce because mommy and daddy grew apart". Becoming a better person and enjoying life more is more pressure on her than you can ever imagine. 

The bottom line is, she needs to choose what she wants. If she chooses you, you guys can make it and develop the marriage. If not, she is setting herself up for a life full of regret. I am unwilling to give ultimatums in my marriage. That is NOT LOVE. It is selfishness. This is about legacy and the kind of legacy you want to leave to your children and grandchildren. Your wife has forgotten what love is and how to do it. It's time you showed her, by loving--------you.


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## Paulination

A Bit Much said:


> You really think it's embellishing? How condescending of you.
> 
> Your wife indeed wants out. She has no job, no way to support herself or her child on her own though, so that makes that dream a little out of reach doesn't it? She's not just telling her friend these things about you to pass the time or entertain herself. I think it's pompous of you to think she's not serious. She's very good at hiding how she feels from you and deflecting (waterworks when pressed). You would be good at it too if you knew you had no other options but to tolerate what you have instead of run away with garbage bags full of your clothes to live god knows where.
> 
> Bottom line is, you want this marriage and she doesn't. She can pretend and fake it till she makes it as long as she needs to. Woe to you the day when she figures out how to do it and not have to depend on you to help her in any way. She's been trying to figure out a way for 3 or 4 years now. Someone who works that hard on looking for an escape finds one.


Wow, I don't know where to start with this. First off for someone who knows NOTHING about my marriage you seem to have it all figured out. 

Call me condescending, pompous, an a$$ whatever you wish but at the very least I am a loving husband trying to make my marriage work and save my family. I have been doing everything to that end wether it is through conventional means, nefarios means or otherwise. I am starting to see light at the end of the tunnel and will respond as such regardless of negative doomsday predictions from you or any other.

My wife would be an absolute FOOL to give up on me, the life I have provided and the future we will inherit. You have no way of knowing that I understand so take it at face value. If she does leave, then the problem is hers not mine and I will move on smiling which I am prepared to do as well.

Have a nice day.


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## Paulination

A Bit Much said:


> You really think it's embellishing? How condescending of you.


I don't think, I know. She has lied to this friend undeniably. When you lie to cause a situation to appear more dramatic then it is, that is embellishing the truth.


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## A Bit Much

> *I am starting to see light at the end of the tunnel and will respond as such regardless of negative doomsday predictions from you or any other.*


And what light would that be exactly? A little sex, some nachos and a night without a fight has you convinced? If she hadn't said what she said in her own words to her friend I could maybe wrap my mind around her turning over a new leaf with you, but it's become very clear you only see what you want to see. There are pages and pages of it in this thread alone that show that, and your defensiveness with my post has shown me plenty.

As a woman who has been in a marriage in which I also felt 'trapped' I learned to play the role as long as I needed to to GET OUT. I don't know your wife, but I can understand what she's saying... I can understand that feeling she's having all too well. And more and more I can see what she means when she says:

*""I don't feel the same way about him, something is missing, I feel trapped, I can't/won't go anywhere because he'll give me the third degree, benn pretending the last 3 to 4 years, can't take much more...." "*

You're doing it here and we're not even in your relationship.


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## A Bit Much

Paulination said:


> I don't think, I know. She has lied to this friend undeniably. When you lie to cause a situation to appear more dramatic then it is, that is embellishing the truth.


Lying to a friend is the least of your concerns. The fact she does it at all is alarming .... 

That is, if you believe she's _actually lying _about how she really feels about you, which it sounds like you do. 

IMO she'll tell you what you want to hear. It works for her.


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## Dedicated2Her

> Wow, I don't know where to start with this. First off for someone who knows NOTHING about my marriage you seem to have it all figured out.
> 
> Call me condescending, pompous, an a$$ whatever you wish but at the very least I am a loving husband trying to make my marriage work and save my family. I have been doing everything to that end wether it is through conventional means, nefarios means or otherwise. I am starting to see light at the end of the tunnel and will respond as such regardless of negative doomsday predictions from you or any other.
> 
> My wife would be an absolute FOOL to give up on me, the life I have provided and the future we will inherit. You have no way of knowing that I understand so take it at face value. If she does leave, then the problem is hers not mine and I will move on smiling which I am prepared to do as
> well.
> 
> Have a nice day.


No need to defend yourself, but this post does speak volumes. You say your wife would be an absolute FOOL, but it is obvious she doesn't see it that way. You have to find out-----WHY? You understanding her pain in what she is currently going through is going to help you show her patience and consolation.

You have gone into "self protect" and "I am right" mode. Take it from people that have no emotional connection to whether your relationship survives or not. It is just what we can see in your posts. To say you have done everything.......not true. You haven't. The one absolute must of any man going through marriage problems is that they remain teachable. If you become unteachable, then you will walk your life with a blinded view of reality. Don't get angry and defensive, especially in responding to someone who absolutely can RESONATE with your wife's feelings. Truth is, my wife has said these things to me. Only after months of initially telling me she was "disconnected".


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## Paulination

A Bit Much said:


> And what light would that be exactly? A little sex, some nachos and a night without a fight has you convinced?


Jesus H christ. I'm convinced of nothing. What?? Am I not supposed to post something I view as positive? I am not extrapolating this into a sigtn that my marriage is fixed, just saying it was nice. Excuse me for that, I won't make that mistake again.


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## A Bit Much

> I am starting to see light at the end of the tunnel


Nobody is telling you not to post any postive interactions. You can do what you want here.

My comments were merely stating that the crumbs she throws you shouldn't be taken as a 'light at the end of the tunnel'. You're grasping, and that's natural for someone in your position, but please don't lose focus. 

She's doing what she needs to do to maintain her lifestyle as it is. There are reasons for that. NOBODY does something for nothing in return, not even you right now. 

I can see that my comments are upsetting from your point of view and for that I apologize. I honestly believe you want to fix whats wrong, but like I said before, I've been where she is and can understand her demeanor and mood swings with you. The difference being, I wasn't badmouthing my ex to anyone. I didn't see that as being productive, as whatever was wrong was for me to work out with him. Her behavior in that regard is only fueling her negative feelings toward you in general. It's helping her to continue to be distant. If she wasn't doing that, then maybe your efforts would be more acknowledged. 

I really hope she's not biding her time. I really hope she's not playing you until she has a way out. It all just sounds eerily familiar.


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## Chaparral

""I don't feel the same way about him, something is missing, I feel trapped, I can't/won't go anywhere because he'll give me the third degree, benn pretending the last 3 to 4 years, can't take much more...." "


There is simply no way to spin this in a positive light. She is either lying to her or lying to you. Why would she lie to her friend? It certainly doesn't make her look good. It completely tears you apart. Again, what is the upide for her to make you/her marriage look so bad. 

On the other hand she has plenty of reasons to keep you hanging on. Number one she has no income other than you. She even told you she did not want sex with you. But then, did she start thinking you might throw her out for that? 

Just speculating. The only thing certain is she's doing a whole lotta lying to someone.


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## COguy

A Bit Much said:


> Nobody is telling you not to post any postive interactions. You can do what you want here.
> 
> My comments were merely stating that the crumbs she throws you shouldn't be taken as a 'light at the end of the tunnel'. You're grasping, and that's natural for someone in your position, but please don't lose focus.
> 
> She's doing what she needs to do to maintain her lifestyle as it is. There are reasons for that. NOBODY does something for nothing in return, not even you right now.
> 
> I can see that my comments are upsetting from your point of view and for that I apologize. I honestly believe you want to fix whats wrong, but like I said before, I've been where she is and can understand her demeanor and mood swings with you. The difference being, I wasn't badmouthing my ex to anyone. I didn't see that as being productive, as whatever was wrong was for me to work out with him. Her behavior in that regard is only fueling her negative feelings toward you in general. It's helping her to continue to be distant. If she wasn't doing that, then maybe your efforts would be more acknowledged.
> 
> I really hope she's not biding her time. I really hope she's not playing you until she has a way out. It all just sounds eerily familiar.


I'm glad you posted this. I had a similar experience in my situation but I didn't want to alarm Paulinator. I thought we were having some breakthroughs and things were going really well right before my wife's ONS. Actually the night before we had what I considered the best date of our life and I was hopeful that we were on the road to a healthy marriage. And then BOOM, next night she goes out and has a ONS.

Some of the healthy relationship actions were there but her mindset hadn't changed. She was still feeling trapped, hopeless, bored, etc.

I don't say that to scare you, just to let you know that you're not out of the woods and you shouldn't stop being vigilant. I still think your wife is unhappy, and unhappy women do stupid things "on accident." She has the mindset of a woman about to start an affair. Being at the wrong place at the wrong time could end in her infidelity.

Continue working on yourself, doing the MAP, and stay vigilant with your marriage. Show your wife, while you're doing this, that you're a strong guy, but still able to support her emotionally. That may look a little different than you think. Not just about being a "nice guy", but about listening to her without trying to fix things.

My wife explained it to me like this. In the day to day stuff, I was not there for her emotionally (this came out as general griping from her end). When her dad died, she said I was exactly what she needed. I tried to remember what I was like at that time. Basically I just there for her. Different than most of the time, I never tried to make her get over it, I just listened.


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## A Bit Much

> I still think your wife is unhappy, and unhappy women do stupid things "on accident." She has the mindset of a woman about to start an affair. Being at the wrong place at the wrong time could end in her infidelity.


 :iagree: So so so spot on COguy.

I had an affair. That was my escape. My escape while still feeling trapped... and I felt justified in doing so because he just didn't hear me for all those years, he didn't see me, he didn't love me the way I needed to be loved. He was unfaithful several times during our marriage, even when I was pregnant with our first child. I couldn't stand how I felt. I wished we had never gotten married and I almost miscarried my child from the stress he put me under. I didn't get over it after our son was born, and my ex did nothing to help renew my trust and faith in him. I was too lost and hurt. 

The affair helped me to forget. It made me feel empowered again, it jump started the self esteem I had lost. It was wrong. I should have left, but financially I didn't see a way out at the time. I needed to calculate how I would save enough money to leave. I went back to work, saved my money by skipping on my obligations to the household and after 18 months I was ready to go.

I don't want to be alarming either, but like I said before, I know very well what that feeling is like. I only wanted to be free, and with that goal in mind I played the role at home. He never thought I would leave him. He was so confident that I couldn't support myself either emotionally or financially, and I showed him that I very well could. I cooked him meals, did his laundry, took care of home, but carried on the affair right under his nose for almost the entire 18 months before I walked out.


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## Paulination

A Bit Much said:


> :iagree: So so so spot on COguy.
> 
> I had an affair. That was my escape. My escape while still feeling trapped... and I felt justified in doing so because he just didn't hear me for all those years, he didn't see me, he didn't love me the way I needed to be loved. He was unfaithful several times during our marriage,


I don't want to throw this in your face but in light of your impreesions of my marriage I feel I have to. I have never cheated on my wife. She has never cheated on me. That alone puts my marriage squarely in a different zone then yours.

I am not sure what is wrong but I am sure that all is not what it appears to be. That could be good, or bad and definately disturbing. I am now in "shut up and observe" mode. I think the next two weeks will define where this is going. Her out of town confidant is here visiting family for the next two weeks and my wife is planning on spending some time with her. 

I'm out of the thread until I have something of substance to add. I promise that if you are correct and I am wrong I will concede on here. Should be interesting.


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## A Bit Much

> I don't want to throw this in your face but in light of your impreesions of my marriage I feel I have to. I have never cheated on my wife. She has never cheated on me. That alone puts my marriage squarely in a different zone then yours.


To be clear, I'm very happily remarried. The situation described above is with my ex-husband.

No one has accused you of cheating Paulination. I only shared my story to shed light on why/how I can connect with how your wife feels. What I see you doing is dismissing her, just like I was dismissed in that marriage, and it led me to do the things I did as a result. While you may not be doing it now, it went on long enough for her to be trashing you behind your back and doing things like changing her passwords to insulting remarks aimed at you.

You're sure she's not cheating now and thats fine. What you refuse to acknowledge is that her actions and behaviors are setting up a scenario. Keep watching, and don't let your guard down. As long as this 'friend' and she are talking about you, you can't afford to.


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## eowyn

Just a question - Whatever the issue you think between you and your wife, was a communication on it delayed for long? That is did you tend to ignore it initially or take it lightly, avoid talking about it and it probably reached a point where your wife ended up with depression-like symptoms? Looks like you are taking good efforts now, but your wife seems to be in a different zone. Maybe her pain moved to anger and then to depression sometime back and you might not have noticed. Just guessing, I could be completely wrong. 

One thing irrespective, Try not to get negatively biased if certain posts sound negative on this forum. For example someone mentions a possibility that she could have an affair, however doesn't sound like an affair to me. Moreover if you say something in this context it could hurt her beyond repair.

Maybe you could go out on a vacation or something, practice meditation with your wife. Do something tangible with patience.. plan out a dinner etc. That wld relieve her stress, make her see the positive side of you and bring you close again. I havent read this thread, looks like there are lot of people replying back. I am sure you will get some good advice.


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## Dedicated2Her

> I think the next two weeks will define where this is going.


It absolutely will not, unless you really act like a psycho. You really are not listening to people who know what you are facing. People that have walked this situation. Trust me, things will get worse before they get better. Your wife resents you. Once that resentment truly breaks out, hold on for the roller coaster. I hope you truly grasp the meaning of humility, forgiveness, and commitment because you will be challenged on these things. It could only take 6 months. Or, it could take 2 years. Depends.

I have a different take when it comes to "keeping your guard up". I had to completely let go and not monitor anything in order for me to truly respond to my wife the way I wanted to. I came to the realization that I can't control whether she falls into the trap of an affair or not. She is a big girl and can live with those decisions if she makes them. I had to stop snooping and just entirely focus on me in order to get rid of the control or fear aspect of my personality. It had to do with my identity as a man. I am trying to see if trust can be rebuilt in my relationship. In order for someone to give me trust, I must give it. Others have a different view, but this is what works for me and makes me happy/content with who I am and my actions.


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## A Bit Much

> I have a different take when it comes to "keeping your guard up". I had to completely let go and not monitor anything in order for me to truly respond to my wife the way I wanted to. I came to the realization that I can't control whether she falls into the trap of an affair or not.


I think this is a very healthy attitude. When I say keep your guard up, I'm saying don't take anything for granted. ANYTHING can happen at any given moment and don't assume you know it won't.

The only person you can control is yourself.


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## Paulination

So the toxic friend has been in town for a week and all of this time they were going to spend together that I was hearing about has not materialized. As a matter of fact, the friend has been basically gone radio silent on all mediums except for some texts that went back and forth last night.

My wife hasn't mentioned a plan with her so it could have been chit chat, who knows.

Anyway, things have been good. As long as I don't bother her about her feelings then everything is peaceful and she seems happy. I have adopted a "whatever happens, happens" attitude and as long I do, we seem fine. 

She has cut WAY back on facebook. Her soccer friends that felt threatening to me have completely gone back to their soccer offseason modes which my wife isn't a part of and she makes no attempt to contact them. 

I'm inclined to just keep my mouth shut about her feelings on this except for the 1 hour every other week we'll be spending in MC (our first couple visit is this week). Maybe thats as much as she can take.


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## Chaparral

Good luck im MC. Remember, you will accomplish the most the more you listen. Double think everything before you say it. Stay calm and strong. Do nothing that comes close to complaining whining, belittling or insulting.

Reject nothing she says and do not argue with her. Remember, she will be telling it like it is for her. Don't be surprised when you think the opposite is true.


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## Paulination

chapparal said:


> Good luck im MC. Remember, you will accomplish the most the more you listen. Double think everything before you say it. Stay calm and strong. Do nothing that comes close to complaining whining, belittling or insulting.
> 
> Reject nothing she says and do not argue with her. Remember, she will be telling it like it is for her. Don't be surprised when you think the opposite is true.


Thanks and that is good advice. I think we may be rebuilding something here. It has been much more peaceful. She has been nice, caring and mindful of my feelings. At the same time I have been more laid back, less controlling and allowing her to do her thing without trying to monitor and analyze everything.

She did start texting her toxic friend about getting together (the wife told me about it) but the plans they are trying to put together were respectful of our life and schedule. For instance the friend wanted to get together for breakfast on Saturday but my wife said that she couldn't because we have a MC appointment.

A month ago I would have bet my bottom buck she would have said something to me like "you go ahead with the appointment, I haven't seen my friend in 5 years so I'll make the next one". In return, I have been super accomodating suggesting times when they could go out instead of my gut reaction to interfere in some way.

The counter intuitive part to this in my mind is it all works and improves as long as I don't bring up her feelings and try to debate them. I guess it doesn't hurt that I have completely limited my drinking and have done other things I have mentioned in the past. We'll see. Optomistic but cautious.


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## sisters359

Why would you debate her feelings? Why would you ever see her comments about what she feels and why as something to argue with? When a person tells you WHAT they see, HOW they see it, and HOW they feel about it, they are giving you the most valuable information you can have in a marriage. 

Example: "When I see you go off so happily to do XXXXX all the time, I think you are thrilled to escape from me, and I feel really sad." 

If you "debate" this, you have entirely missed an opportunity--to address the core issue expressed. Reassurance that you are not trying to escape is one thing, or changing behavior is another. But the REAL issue to address is that the person feels insecure about the relationship--insecure enough to feel that they, themselves, are someone to "escape" from.

Sometimes the situation is the the speaker is just too insecure and needs some individual counseling; other times a comment like the example is a window into YOUR behavior--from the other person's point of view. 

I have not read all of this thread, but I remember when you started on here and I've read the last few pages. If you are incapable of listening without responding/debating/defending, then your chances of truly resolving this situation are lessened--that is what others have been trying to get you to "hear." We all get negative feedback in life--and if it is from someone in a position of power (your boss) or someone who is just trying to help (like us), the expected response on your part is that you will give it SERIOUS consideration before deciding how to act-not toward us, either. 

We all know quite well that you are the expert on your situation, and that each situation is unique. Why do you feel the need to debate that with anyone? We also know that there are patterns in human relationships and that it is quite rare for situations to be so far from the norm as you assert--possible, but not likely. The simple fact that you believe your wife is lying to her friend and that you will not consider the possibility that you are wrong is what leads us to conclude your chances are slim. It is not our life--but we are just trying to help. Why can't you even consider the possiblity that you might be wrong? I'm asking you simply to think about that, not to convince me. I'm not in your shoes, so I can't see everything. None of us can. All we can see is what you report--and if your report has led *most* outsiders to conclude something--that you are deluding yourself--don't you think it is worth a second look? Again, rhetorical question.


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## Paulination

sisters359 said:


> Why would you debate her feelings?


Poor choice of words on my part. I don't want to debate whether she feels something or not, I would like to get to the reasons. The purpose of this of course is to help fix things. Her reasonings have been vague and non-specific other than the two specific things she mentioned which I have fixed months ago.

Like I have said earlier, she is the architect of her life and I am the financier. Whatever she ever wanted to do I have been open to, encouraging and worked to provide. Wants to play soccer? Done. Wants to go back to school? Then go etc...

I think in light of all this she owes me an explanation as to why she is unhappy? And if she doesn't know, then actvively work to find out and help fix it. To put me in limbo for over two months now and just watch the misery it has caused me without making any effort to remedy the situation is cruel. After a while, the pain turns to anger.

I just want her to choose. 1) We work on fixing the marriage or 2) We end it. But if it is #1, then we BOTH must do the work. I have already been doing that, it seems maybe she is starting to.

All of the debating I have done with her and people on this website is a function of the limbo. If I don't know what is going on, and my wife doesn't know what is going on, then no one here does either. I am open to suggestions which is why I came here in the first place but when people post things in terms of certainty, when it is not I have a tendencay to push back. It is kind of like me being silent is a kin to agreement which I am not in some cases. I say all of this in the most appreciative way because whether I agree with people here or like or dislike the advice, the one certainty is you all have taken time out of your day to be helpful.


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## Bottled Up

Paulination said:


> Like I have said earlier, *she is the architect of her life and I am the financier*. Whatever she ever wanted to do I have been open to, encouraging and worked to provide. Wants to play soccer? Done. Wants to go back to school? Then go etc...
> 
> I think in light of all this *she owes me an explanation* as to why she is unhappy? And *if she doesn't know, then actvively work to find out and help fix it. To put me in limbo for over two months now and just watch the misery it has caused me without making any effort to remedy the situation is cruel.* After a while, the pain turns to anger.
> 
> *I just want her to choose.* 1) We work on fixing the marriage or 2) We end it. But if it is #1, then we BOTH must do the work. I have already been doing that, it seems maybe she is starting to.


Paulination, I have highlighted above some of your own words that to me, kind of express a subliminal removal of mutuality in your relationship in general.

I truly think you're making progress here overall, especially with your latest posts in how it seems you turning down the temperature looks like it's starting to work. I think you're figuring it out what finally might be working for her in your relationship and what doesn't. But the highlights in your post I made to me are a dangerous way of thinking - borderline finger-pointing to her and removal of yourself from the action/obligation.

Your relationship and your family is a mutual responsibility. This means you cannot expect your wife to always be the architect and you the financier... that basically means she does all the hard work of construction and all you need to do is pay the funds.

Being the man in your home means taking action. You can share the load of being architect so the burden isn't always on her. Sitting back and just financing is weak.. put some raw brawn into your relationship. Muscle, sweat,... "Don't worry I got that one honey, you relax... I'm the alpha 'round here..." Make a joke of the "alpha" sh!t but still say it occasionally. Burn it into her brain so she believes it and you become the man that's gonna finally save her from all the stresses in the world...

Also, you really need to stop pinning all the blame and fixing of the relationship duties on her. You say she's being cruel, but that's your defensive mindset talking. Maybe she's not really trying to be cruel, maybe she's just seriously confused and is having a hard time figuring things out on her own.

You're right, I don't fully know you or your wife or the entirety of the stuff you're reading in her conversations, but your future together is only going to become harmonious if you start backing off a little and focusing only on your own agenda. Let her see you operate your routine as if you don't need her validation anymore and make her want to get back into your routine. Be nice to her, give her compliments, show her loving gestures, then back off for a while and give her space. Act like you're completely entertained in whatever you do whether she's in the action or on the sidelines.

Make her know what she's missing, without the pressure. She will come back to the Paulination action if you convince her it's a drama-free and action-packed ride.


----------



## Paulination

Well we had the our first MC visit today as a couple and am not sure what to think of it. There were alot of things that we kind of worked out before the visit that were brought back into the mix as if they were still going on. I know it was important for the MC to get the entire picture but I felt we were going backwards a little. I explained the some of this is where we were, not where we are and she seemed to get that.

Felt a little awkward talking about the things I have expressley decided against talking but that is what we were there for. When we left my wife and I discussed that what came out in MC should stay there unless it was something we agreed to work on. In otherwards, we agreed not to continue the discussion outside of the session unless she wanted to. 

Once we cleared that up, we went on to have a wonderful day.


----------



## MEM2020

Paul,
You are way more responsible for what is happening than you seem willing to admit. More insecure and controlling. 

You don't seem to perceive your wife as an adult. She may be flawed but she is grown up. And given her extreme financial dependence on you, you must have been way over the line for a long time for her to voice the idea of bailing.

You may be way ahead of her when it comes to managing a to do list and earning money, but you have described doing some thngs regarding her and her friend that struck me as way it of line. Glad to know you have stopped doing that - but it was recent.



UOTE=Paulination;656333]Well we had the our first MC visit today as a couple and am not sure what to think of it. There were alot of things that we kind of worked out before the visit that were brought back into the mix as if they were still going on. I know it was important for the MC to get the entire picture but I felt we were going backwards a little. I explained the some of this is where we were, not where we are and she seemed to get that.

Felt a little awkward talking about the things I have expressley decided against talking but that is what we were there for. When we left my wife and I discussed that what came out in MC should stay there unless it was something we agreed to work on. In otherwards, we agreed not to continue the discussion outside of the session unless she wanted to. 

Once we cleared that up, we went on to have a wonderful day.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Paulination

MEM11363 said:


> Paul,
> You are way more responsible for what is happening than you seem willing to admit. More insecure and controlling.


You got that out of the fact that I am respecting the fact that my wife doesn't wish to rehash the last few months outside of MC. Interesting. Once again, I post something positive and you people find a way to dirt ass it. No one is happy unless the relationship is sh!t. Nice.

This will really piss you off: we had a wondeful evening listening to music, having a nice dinner and then making love for the last two hours. I did slap her a$$ without asking so I guess that was a little oppressive.


----------



## ocotillo

Paulination said:


> You got that out of the fact that I am respecting the fact that my wife doesn't wish to rehash the last few months outside of MC. Interesting. Once again, I post something positive and you people find a way to dirt ass it. No one is happy unless the relationship is sh!t. Nice.
> 
> This will really piss you off: we had a wondeful evening listening to music, having a nice dinner and then making love for the last two hours. I did slap her a$$ without asking so I guess that was a little oppressive.


Glad to hear that. Good for you, Paul (And your wife.)


----------



## Jeff/BC

Paulination said:


> I'm angry that while she is putting me through this, her life is seemingly unaffected. I feel like there should be a consequence.


OK, take a deep breath because honestly, an eye for an eye didn't even work out for God. He thought better of it later on. It certainly isn't going to work out for us mere mortals.

Take some solace in the fact that there ARE consequences. EVERYTHING in life has consequences. Unless she's somehow gotten a pass on the whole cause & effect gig then there are consequences for her too... the most obvious one being losing you. I had these same thoughts at one point. As I understand it, my ex was subsequently unhappy at the divorce. Yes, there are consequences.

So what's your timeline and does she know it? I fully understand giving her space and time to sort things out. I also get it that just because she looks untroubled TO YOU doesn't mean that she is untroubled. But at some point of your own determination, you need to be willing to say "this isn't working" (eg: I've called a lawyer, you'll be served shortly). She should know what that point is clearly and well in advance.

For me, I didn't have a timeline. What happened instead is that I ran into Carol. Suddenly, out of nowhere, there was a timeline and it what it read was "too late".


----------



## Chaparral

I think her biggest problem is boredom and everything else flows from that.


----------



## Paulination

Well a new wrinkle has reared its ugly head. Money. We keep seperate accounts for no other reason then we just never consolidated them. When she stopped working it seemed like a mute point since the only money she could deposit was that which I gave her. As such, I give her money every month to maintain the property taxes and the child support for my two older kids. Everything else I pay for directly. The only exceptions is sometimes I have come into larger sums for different reasons (tax returns, bonuses etc..) that I give to her to manage, pay down debt, save etc...

She has led me to believe she has no money. Last year I started paying off a credit card that has a $200 a month payment due because "she has no money".

Well tonight after spending an hour to balance a checkbook that should have take 2 minutes (remember I pay all of the bills) I started questioning her about how complicated her finances could possibly be. She gave me a lame excuse of transfering money from acccount A to a tax account B etc.. 

I snooped online and found she has over 12,000 socked away in two savings accounts. WTF???

I then pushed a little further about her finances and she SWORE all she has is a little savings from a job she held 4 years ago. In otherwards, she lied her effing a$$ off and I don't know why.

My wife is an effing liar and I don't know what to do about it. She makes me out to be an a$$ for questioning her when it turns out it is exactly, if not worse then I accuse her of.

I am going to print out the records to protect myself in a divorce proceeding (community property) but I don't know how or when to confront.

She is a somewhat simple women. I don't believe the underlying reason for this is something like hoarding cash for an impending breakup because the bulk of this money came from deposit I gave her a couple of years ago. Plus she knows I am entitled to half the money.

I can tell the lie is bothering her tonight as she has gone qiuiet and is listening to headphones in bed. She'll have me believe that this is because I questioned her honesty but the reason is obvious.

We have our next MC on Saturday, how do I open myself in MC knowing that all she is doing is lying?


----------



## Chaparral

I would start the mc session with "my wife lies to me". Take the bank statments with you.


----------



## morituri

Financial infidelity?


----------



## walkawaywife

this whole thread boggled my mind and couldn't read it all, but what i did read, the OP sounds very controlling and dismissive to his wife. 
i would be interested to know what made your first marriage end in divorce.
sorry but you sound very passive aggressive to me. 
men who are passive aggressive need not do the 180 as it only further drives home the fact that you don't give a crap.
i agree with the 180 in many situations.
in yours, not.
continue on and you will get a walk away wife.
i was one.
i know.


----------



## chaos

walkawaywife said:


> this whole thread boggled my mind and couldn't read it all, but what i did read, the OP sounds very controlling and dismissive to his wife.


It seems that this is very typical of some female members who respond to male member threads. They don't read the entire thread and then take out of context what the OP posted in one or two comments.



> i would be interested to know what made your first marriage end in divorce.
> sorry but you sound very passive aggressive to me.
> men who are passive aggressive need not do the 180 as it only further drives home the fact that you don't give a crap.
> i agree with the 180 in many situations.
> in yours, not.
> continue on and you will get a walk away wife.
> i was one.
> i know.


I don't think so. She's got a very cushy lifestyle where all her needs are being taken cared of. I'm more willing to bet that it will be the OP who will be ending up serving divorce papers if his wife continues with her selfishness.


----------



## Paulination

walkawaywife said:


> this whole thread boggled my mind and couldn't read it all, but what i did read, the OP sounds very controlling and dismissive to his wife.
> i would be interested to know what made your first marriage end in divorce.
> sorry but you sound very passive aggressive to me.
> men who are passive aggressive need not do the 180 as it only further drives home the fact that you don't give a crap.
> i agree with the 180 in many situations.
> in yours, not.
> continue on and you will get a walk away wife.
> i was one.
> i know.


I would love for you to break this down a little further so I can understand the "passive aggressive", "dismissive" and "controlling" behaviors I have exhibited. Seriously. I've said it before, my worse crime was to treat her like gold and meet every one of her needs on demand and now I am facing the consequences of that.

I'm trying to change that dynamic and the "problems" in our marriage as described by her, with no effort by her. I've done more to understand marriage and women in general over the last 2 months than in my entire life. I have listened to the wife and have taken concrete steps to address every concern she has had. When I ask her to address the needs I have that haven't been met, I get "I can't change over night".

If she wants to be a walkaway wife like yourself I may just hold the door open at this point.


----------



## Chaparral

If you hae found twelve grand stashed away you may wnat to dig even deeper.

Do you think she has insecurity issues?


----------



## bandit.45

Sounds like bailout savings to me. This chick is a piece of work.


----------



## LadyFrog

chapparal said:


> I would start the mc session with "my wife lies to me". Take the bank statments with you.



Good suggestion. I would hand them to the MC and say something like, "Perhaps today we can start with this." That should put your wife on the spot (rightfully so) See how she tries to explain away her deception.

Twelve grand?  The fact that she hid money from you is bad enough but I agree with bandit. She is planning something.


----------



## walkawaywife

i would have to go back 18 pages....and i cant' figure out how to do that pasting and replying thing where you call out each point.
i could point out specific examples but
it's really not worth it anyways.
carry on.


----------



## MEM2020

Walkaway,
That is priceless. No surprise you were "treated badly" in your marriage.
You show up:
- claim to be an expert who "could" help this guy
- when asked for specifics your response is you can't be bothered to spend 5 minutes using that expertise to help this guy avoid a divOECD

If that's your normal M.O. I imagine your H is now happier...


TE=walkawaywife;670535]i would have to go back 18 pages....and i cant' figure out how to do that pasting and replying thing where you call out each point.
i could point out specific examples but
it's really not worth it anyways.
carry on. [/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## walkawaywife

never claimed to be an expert
never claimed i could 'help" him avoid a divorce

dont' want to spend five minutes figuring out post and paste stuff. yeah. i will cop to that.

as for my ex being happier, yes i think we both are. thanks for caring.


----------



## Paulination

bandit.45 said:


> Sounds like bailout savings to me. This chick is a piece of work.


I thought about that as well but I know exactly where it came from and it came in 3 lumps over the last 4 years with the first being the biggest (8 grand). The 8 grand was from 4 years. I just assumed we nickle and dimed it but apparently not.

I may be naive but my gut says I caught her off guard and her initial reaction was to deny. Now she is stuck with the lie. I researched the accounts and my name is on them as well so community property is well established.


----------



## keko

What if she kept the money in savings for bad days? Not divorce but unemployment, unforseeable expenses, etc.?


----------



## Paulination

keko said:


> What if she kept the money in savings for bad days? Not divorce but unemployment, unforseeable expenses, etc.?


Thats what I'm thinking. Protecting us. I feel bad that she felt the need to lie. Is that pathetic?


----------



## Chaparral

Some people can't help lying. Even when the truth would serve them better. I know whole families that will lie in a heartbeat, seemingly for no reason. Is she normally totally honest? Does she exagerate?


----------



## deejov

It is surprising.
If you pay all the bills, I'm a bit surprised you didn't know it was there either? 

She pays your child support out of her account? Not to be nosy, but I'm sure there is a reason for that. Like not wanting your ex to know what your bank account is or how much you make, understandable. 

It does seem suspcious at best, although I have to point out that since you make all the money, and she didn't squander it away, maybe count yourself lucky. Lots of wives would have spent it all


----------



## keko

Paulination said:


> Thats what I'm thinking. Protecting us. I feel bad that she felt the need to lie. Is that pathetic?


When you asked her, was it in a questioning manner? Would you say she was under pressure? Doesn't excuse the lying, but I would say she may have felt pressured or scared to tell the truth.

+1deejov, on having a wife that doesn't run you dry rather puts the money into savings.


----------



## Paulination

keko said:


> When you asked her, was it in a questioning manner? Would you say she was under pressure? Doesn't excuse the lying, but I would say she may have felt pressured or scared to tell the truth.
> 
> +1deejov, on having a wife that doesn't run you dry rather puts the money into savings.


What happenned was that our property taxes were due so she needed to transfer money into the checking account to do it. She then proceeded to balance her checkbook as well. I noticed it took a long time to do it, way longer than the 5 minutes max it should take to transfer funds and account for a check or two. 

So I brought it up and said "it sure seems to be taking you a long time to balance your checkbook when you don't have any personal expenses that you pay for to account for" at that point she tried to derail me with "I have to transfer funds for the property taxes and the child support etc..."

Being suspicious I checked her story out from the other room and found the savings account. So I gave her a chance to tell me.

I'm smart enough to know how long that should take so I asked "your finances seem more complicated then they should be. Is there more to them than I know?" She says "no".

Really??

"No extra accounts or savings I am unaware of?" She says "No, just my checking account and a small savings account" I then asked "you swear on that?" and she said "yes".

I then on impulse said "if I find out you are lying to me..." I didn't finish the sentence. She then says "out of curiosity, if I am lying to you what will you do? There seems like an ultimatum in there and I don't do well with those"

I then said "well you swear you are telling me the truth so I think that point is mute"

I then left the room with her following me asking me why am I so suspicious of her all of the time.

The crazy thing is that the very next morning I checked the mail and lo and behold, the statement for the account was in there. I was alos pleasently surpised to see my name on the envelope as well so I know I am on the account. I obviously kep the statement as I now have proof without compromising my original source.

I don't understand all of this lying. She says she never goes un FB during the day, but I see that she does. The bank account, texting.....lies about alot of things and she doesn't need to because when I research her activity there is nothing wrong with it.


----------



## Paulination

The ironic thing is that before the "I'm unhappy" decleration, I let everything slide. I never questioned anything that she did because I never felt the need to. Only after I got such vague explanations from her regarding her hapiness did I feel the need to get answers and now everything sends up my radar.


----------



## Paulination

Soooo, outside of lying about this account everything has been rather uneventful in our marriage, especially when compared to the beginning of this ordeal. I want to describe where we seem to be at and get the opinions of those here on how to proceed:

We are in MC. Have only gone once as a couple but have our second appointment on Saturday. Largely the opinions I get here will help my approach in MC.

1) We have stopped fighting for the most part the greater of a month. Basically, as long as I don't bring up the marriage problems or what she said to me a couple of months ago, everything is peaceful. Let me be clear, she does not want to talk about it. If I try (which I haven't in a while) she gets defensive, irritated and has this "here we go again" mentality. When my wife said she needed space, not talking about it is the space she is referring to. I have tried giving her more physical space but she rejects that idea and insists that she wants me near. She is ofcourse willing to talk about it in MC so I suspect she is simply reserving those conversations for the appropriate venue in her opinion.

2) I have still been working the MAP and physically look better than ever (lost 2 inches in the waist and gained muscle in the arms and chest). I never was fat but I am now 158 Lbs at 5'9.. Everyone notices but her (she says). What do I make of this?

3) I have changed the things in myself she disliked. Patient with the kids, drinking is minimal etc... The house is peaceful but my wife doesn't seem to notice the changes. She acknowledges them in MC but thats it.

4) She has way cutback on FB and no longer IM the guys she used to. I'm not sure if that is because she is doing it for the marriage or because soccer season is over and no longer has anything to talk about. She also hasn't IM with her toxic friend in a long time regarding us the way she once did. When her friend visited the area, she only went out once with her and the visit was very brief regardless of the fact that I showed nothing but support.

5) Sex is fairly regular but she still says her libido is lacking. I'm hoping that the improvement in our situation will remedy that but as of yet, nothing. On a positive note it is clear she enjoys sex when we are in the act.

6) Outside of FB, she seems uninterested in doing anything else to improve the marriage. I have spoken to her about us being more romantic, loving and affectionate. She says "I can't change over night". She still won't read the "Divorce Busting" book I bought her. The affection thing is really important to me. I can't imagine it not being important to everyone in a marriage. The problem is that she is waiting to "feel like it" before doing it. I think a more constructive approach is to "act as if" and see if the feelings develope. Am I wrong?

7) She says she loves me when asked but never says it first. I always said it first and recieved the obligatory "ILYT" but she never says it first. I have since stopped saying it first so ofcourse, it doesn't get said at all now. I never got the "ILYBNILWY".

Thats where we are at. My goal is to not go back to the way we were, but to have the best marriage ever. My wife seems to want the same thing but won't act on anything she does't have a feeling in the moment to do so. Inotherwards, I am doing 90% of the work in this (ironically whether I feel like it or not).


----------



## Goldmember357

A Bit Much said:


> Women like your wife (the way you describe her) infuriate and sicken me. She obviously doesn't know how good she has it. An in home separation? no sex? WTF is that really about??
> 
> IMO she really has no complaints with you... she's only trying to justify cutting you off emotionally so that she can pursue other things. Selfish people have no feelings for others. Their needs and wants are valued more than yours.
> 
> If I were you, I'd tell her what you've observed since she made her announcement. I'd also tell her that you're not accepting any of her suggestions until she can give a valid reason why you should. You're in a marriage not an arrangement... unless she WANTS it that way. In which case, the 180 is what you need to do if she chooses the latter. Don't allow her to feed you this nonsense. If she's so unhappy and wants to separate, then she needs to go pack a bag.
> 
> Usually this type has thoughts of the grass being greener and wants to pursue it, if not for that pesky spouse they're married to.


^^ this :iagree:

You need to Divorce your wife she is not interested why wait around and get hurt more? she is far from interested in making things work. I know good women i have a good woman and their are plenty i mean millions of great women out there who have there heart's to give and love your wife does not sound like one. There are so many better women there are women with depression who at least try to work things out your wife is not. As said by another poster on here who said they have PTSD they do not act like that at all. 

A "true love" can only exist if their is passion, commitment and intimacy. It seems the passion is gone and the intimacy is there commitment? 

You likely married to fast and there was intimacy beforehand and commitment but life goes on and you discover more of each other and know each other she realizes its not the life she want's and you are starting to see that she is narcissistic.


----------



## Goldmember357

Paulination said:


> Soooo, outside of lying about this account everything has been rather uneventful in our marriage, especially when compared to the beginning of this ordeal. I want to describe where we seem to be at and get the opinions of those here on how to proceed:
> 
> We are in MC. Have only gone once as a couple but have our second appointment on Saturday. Largely the opinions I get here will help my approach in MC.
> 
> 1) We have stopped fighting for the most part the greater of a month. *Basically, as long as I don't bring up the marriage problems or what she said to me a couple of months ago, everything is peaceful. * Let me be clear, she does not want to talk about it. If I try (which I haven't in a while) she gets defensive, irritated and has this "here we go again" mentality. When my wife said she needed space, not talking about it is the space she is referring to. I have tried giving her more physical space but she rejects that idea and insists that she wants me near. She is ofcourse willing to talk about it in MC so I suspect she is simply reserving those conversations for the appropriate venue in her opinion.
> 
> 2) I have still been working the MAP and physically look better than ever (lost 2 inches in the waist and gained muscle in the arms and chest). I never was fat but I am now 158 Lbs at 5'9.. *Everyone notices but her (she says).* What do I make of this?
> 
> 3) *I have changed the things in myself she disliked.* Patient with the kids, drinking is minimal etc... The house is peaceful but my wife doesn't seem to notice the changes. She acknowledges them in MC but thats it.
> 
> 4) S*he has way cutback on FB and no longer IM the guys she used to. *I'm not sure if that is because she is doing it for the marriage or because soccer season is over and no longer has anything to talk about. She also hasn't IM with her toxic friend in a long time regarding us the way she once did. When her friend visited the area, she only went out once with her and the visit was very brief regardless of the fact that I showed nothing but support.
> 
> 5) Sex is fairly regular but she still says her libido is lacking. I'm hoping that the improvement in our situation will remedy that but as of yet, nothing. On a positive note it is clear she enjoys sex when we are in the act.
> 
> 6) *Outside of FB, she seems uninterested in doing anything else to improve the marriage. I have spoken to her about us being more romantic, loving and affectionate. She says "I can't change over night". *She still won't read the "Divorce Busting" book I bought her. The affection thing is really important to me. I can't imagine it not being important to everyone in a marriage. The problem is that she is waiting to "feel like it" before doing it. I think a more constructive approach is to "act as if" and see if the feelings develope. Am I wrong?
> 
> 7) *She says she loves me when asked but never says it first. I always said it first and recieved the obligatory "ILYT" but she never says it first.* I have since stopped saying it first so ofcourse, it doesn't get said at all now. I never got the "ILYBNILWY".
> 
> Thats where we are at. My goal is to not go back to the way we were, but to have the best marriage ever. My wife seems to want the same thing but won't act on anything she does't have a feeling in the moment to do so. Inotherwards, I am doing 90% of the work in this (ironically whether I feel like it or not).


She does not man really i think its best if you just leave her it will be best for both of you and especially yourself. Reality will slap her in the face and she will move on with her life. She CHECKED OUT ALONG TIME AGO!


All of those are huge huge issues!!



1) You only fight when you bring up the obvious problems in your marriage= RED FLAG. She is content with getting sex from you but not being in love or having any passion or romance she has checked out.

2) a good woman a "good girl" a truly loving wife and a yes a good woman would never be IM other men and flirting around on FB or text or whatever that is not what good people or good women do.

3) a good woman a good wife will love you no mater what not care so much about your looks. (although you should remain in shape)

4) Her enjoying sex with a man she is attracted to (you) or was was more attracted to is not at all "odd". Yes she will have sex with you but she probably cares about her pleasure and sex is enjoyable. She has checked out as far as solving the problems in your marriage and the other issues.

5) she is not interested in changing or improving the marriage. All she has done is cut contact with flirting with other men in order to get you to cool down and not risk or threaten with divorce so she can liver her comfortable lifestyle.

6) Wont tell say you that she loves you?


Dude listen man that is not how a loving wife or a good woman acts. She has some major problems and is a narcissistic person.



I think you sound like a good guy and are much more deserving of a better woman. There are plenty of women who dream of a good man and so many never find one i think you deserve one of those women and they are out there. You do not need to think "this is the only way" or "there is no one else than her" when she wont even love you or put forth the effort. I feel bad for you man you dont deserve this but you did chose to marry her. Often times people get themselves into these situations and even knowing the flaws of a person but over look it. 


best of luck


----------



## Chaparral

Paulination said:


> What happenned was that our property taxes were due so she needed to transfer money into the checking account to do it. She then proceeded to balance her checkbook as well. I noticed it took a long time to do it, way longer than the 5 minutes max it should take to transfer funds and account for a check or two.
> 
> So I brought it up and said "it sure seems to be taking you a long time to balance your checkbook when you don't have any personal expenses that you pay for to account for" at that point she tried to derail me with "I have to transfer funds for the property taxes and the child support etc..."
> 
> Being suspicious I checked her story out from the other room and found the savings account. So I gave her a chance to tell me.
> 
> I'm smart enough to know how long that should take so I asked "your finances seem more complicated then they should be. Is there more to them than I know?" She says "no".
> 
> Really??
> 
> "No extra accounts or savings I am unaware of?" She says "No, just my checking account and a small savings account" I then asked "you swear on that?" and she said "yes".
> 
> I then on impulse said "if I find out you are lying to me..." I didn't finish the sentence. She then says "out of curiosity, if I am lying to you what will you do? There seems like an ultimatum in there and I don't do well with those"
> 
> I then said "well you swear you are telling me the truth so I think that point is mute"
> 
> I then left the room with her following me asking me why am I so suspicious of her all of the time.
> 
> The crazy thing is that the very next morning I checked the mail and lo and behold, the statement for the account was in there. I was alos pleasently surpised to see my name on the envelope as well so I know I am on the account. I obviously kep the statement as I now have proof without compromising my original source.
> 
> I don't understand all of this lying. She says she never goes un FB during the day, but I see that she does. The bank account, texting.....lies about alot of things and she doesn't need to because when I research her activity there is nothing wrong with it.


You seem to be going after her here like a junk yard dog. If someone talked to me like that I wouldn't freak out or lie but I would tell them to take a leap and kiss my a$$. Do your conversations with her usually run this aggresively?

How do you have accts with your name on them you know nothing about? You would have to have signed a signture card, no? From your tone I'm surprised she answered at all.

I'm not at all sure you realize how you come across.


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## deejov

OP, you bring up some important points. You've been doing some thinking, and it looks like you have tried to show what's going on on both sides.

Luckily, you are going to MC. From someone who has "been there done that"... I totally understand WHY someone would clam up unless there is a neutral party there.
I really do think it's OKAY to leave those discussions for MC. You've only gone once. A good MC will give you a few sessions, and also some tips on how you can talk together about things. later. Take it as it is. At least it's getting discussed.

The other points... all seem familiar to someone who has checked out of a marriage.I'm not saying she's done and move on, I'm just saying it certainly seems that right now she isn't interested. So don't take it too personally if she doesn't compliment your new bod. She isn't capable of seeing it right now. Too little too late? Maybe, maybe not. 

Again, I will mention resentment. Which isn't really helpful as I can't say how you help her get over that.

She may be half way out the door and losing emotion, but you should consider that she is going to MC, and she is speaking up there. Leave it the professional to help her find her way.


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## Paulination

chapparal said:


> You seem to be going after her here like a junk yard dog. If someone talked to me like that I wouldn't freak out or lie but I would tell them to take a leap and kiss my a$$. Do your conversations with her usually run this aggresively?
> 
> How do you have accts with your name on them you know nothing about? You would have to have signed a signture card, no? From your tone I'm surprised she answered at all.
> 
> I'm not at all sure you realize how you come across.


I know about two of the three. She added the last one at some point. I guess opening the account by extension put my name on it since the other two are in my name. Hell, she may have intentionally put my name on it, I don't know.

I'm confused, am I being to aggressive or is she in your opinion? I don't see how I was out of line, especially since I was absolutely correct in my suspicions.


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## Chaparral

Your questions were just veiled accusations. You catch more flies with sugar than salt. The problem is how you were accusing her before you had any idea about the 12 grand. She flipped out and lied. Since the statements were coming to the huouse for you to open anytime, its hard to assume a conspiracy to hide it. All you proved is she doesn't trust you. Why?


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## Paulination

chapparal said:


> Your questions were just veiled accusations. You catch more flies with sugar than salt. The problem is how you were accusing her before you had any idea about the 12 grand. She flipped out and lied. Since the statements were coming to the huouse for you to open anytime, its hard to assume a conspiracy to hide it. All you proved is she doesn't trust you. Why?


The inquirey started simple and innocently. I was curious why it would take an hour to balance a checkbook when she wrote only one check. Her answers were insulting to my intelligence and it escallated from there.


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## PooDoo

I don't see the logic of her lying about the 12k in her 'hidden' bank acct if she knew bank statements were going to the house - I'd bet she overlooked it. Sounds like part of her exit strategy (I hope I'm wrong) - just in case this doesn't work out. And about her not being happy - I was (am) the one not happy and I - like you - wanted to try to figure out what was going on, that's how I found this site. Does she think being unhappy is ok (for her/you and the kids) - why would she do nothing to find some answers like you have been doing? - that's suspicious in itself to me. How she could concentrate on anything else? I don't sleep, eat, can't think at work - it should REALLY bug her. Does it? If not why?


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## Paulination

PooDoo said:


> I don't see the logic of her lying about the 12k in her 'hidden' bank acct if she knew bank statements were going to the house - I'd bet she overlooked it. Sounds like part of her exit strategy (I hope I'm wrong) - just in case this doesn't work out. And about her not being happy - I was (am) the one not happy and I - like you - wanted to try to figure out what was going on, that's how I found this site. Does she think being unhappy is ok (for her/you and the kids) - why would she do nothing to find some answers like you have been doing? - that's suspicious in itself to me. How she could concentrate on anything else? I don't sleep, eat, can't think at work - it should REALLY bug her. Does it? If not why?


I'm convinced that my wife doesn't see the "problems" the way she once conveyed them to be. I have come to this conclusion because she has backed away from her original position and doesn't want to talk about it. She doesn't complain about them to anyone the way she once did and generally seems happier. I think she went through a period of depression over circumstances she had little control over and automatically blamed the marriage. Now that the circumstances have remedied themselves, she has no way to take back what she said. She certainly doesn't want to admit she was depressed. This could also all be subconscious and not scripted the way I make it out to be.

Me talking about it forces her to deal with something she has little real concern for which is annoying. to her.

If the money is part of an exit strategy, then it is the only thing she has done. She hasn't researched alimimony, lawyers, divorce, child support or even looked for a job or worked on a resume. She speaks often about the future and we are always together in it.

I'm in a wierd dynamic and like I have said before, it is like living in upside down world. I can't trust what I hear and what she does runs counter to what she has said. 

In my desire to improve this marriage I have required her to do some work which is the opposite result of what she wanted. She has been comfortable for a long time with minimal effort and her "I'm not happy" rant has now back fired.


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## deejov

Paulination said:


> I'm in a wierd dynamic and like I have said before, it is like living in upside down world. I can't trust what I hear and what she does runs counter to what she has said.
> 
> .


Yes, you are in a unique situation.

Only because you are spying on your wife and have knowledge of every email she writes, what she does on the computer, etc.

It's not healthy to continue this, is it?

Doesn't she deserve some privacy? To her own thought?
Give a thought to stop snooping on everything she does.


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## keko

Paulination said:


> If the money is part of an exit strategy, then it is the only thing she has done. She hasn't researched alimimony, lawyers, divorce, child support or even looked for a job or worked on a resume. She speaks often about the future and we are always together in it.


If this is the case, I don't see her planning anything behind your back. You're also monitoring her way too much for too little she did. Less "spying" would be for your own good more then her. Every little ordeal freaks you out and you start to wonder 100s of possibilities. 

Is she depressed or bored with her life? I would suspect most SAHM's would need new activites to keep them busy, definately nothing which would open doors to infidelity but rather things around the house. Especially since you mentioned her soccer season was over.


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## Paulination

keko said:


> You're also monitoring her way too much for too little she did. Less "spying" would be for your own good more then her. Every little ordeal freaks you out and you start to wonder 100s of possibilities.


I agree with you. I was certainly more at peace when I didn't know everything. God knows if she was a fly on my shoulder 24/7 she would probably be a little freaked as well.


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## Bottled Up

keko said:


> Is she depressed or bored with her life? I would suspect most SAHM's would need new activites to keep them busy, definately nothing which would open doors to infidelity but rather things around the house. Especially since you mentioned her soccer season was over.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

More and more I'm thinking this is the case. Chapparal suggested this a few pages/days ago too and I think he was dead-on. Your wife's initial "I'm not happy" statement a few weeks ago could have been the red flag equivalent of the hallmark "I'm bored" warning sign that she needs to be more stimulated in the relationship.

Running the MAP certainly isn't hurting you, but I think you need to start focusing more on romance, sweetness, and affectionate attention. You need to get your wife back to a hardcore emotional bonding with you, which means I think you need to cool down on all the questioning you do to her that traps her into a corner and makes her feel like she's on the spot. She needs to be able to hug you and feel like you're her wonderful big teddy bear, not a suspicious obsessive and angry grizzly bear.

I agree it sounds like it's time to stop spying and rather, start gaming your wife. Make making her happy and falling back in love with you your new passion and 100% focus.


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## PooDoo

Paulination said:


> If the money is part of an exit strategy, then it is the only thing she has done. She hasn't researched alimimony, lawyers, divorce, child support or even looked for a job or worked on a resume. She speaks often about the future and we are always together in it.


Have you asked her about the $12k? It's not about the $ per se (although $12k is a lot of $!) but why the secrecy? You definately have a unique situation. I hope all this turns out to make your marriage better. Sometimes we need a few steps backward to shake us out of a rut/pattern (or whatever) for things to get better. The not-so-good times will make the good/great times that much better.

Your situation - just reminded me of the old Billy Joel song - "She's always a woman"


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## Paulination

PooDoo said:


> Have you asked her about the $12k? It's not about the $ per se (although $12k is a lot of $!) but why the secrecy? You definately have a unique situation. I hope all this turns out to make your marriage better. Sometimes we need a few steps backward to shake us out of a rut/pattern (or whatever) for things to get better. The not-so-good times will make the good/great times that much better.
> 
> Your situation - just reminded me of the old Billy Joel song - "She's always a woman"


I haven't asked. She doesn't know I know. Instead of just reacting I am taking my time with it. I know the money is there and it has been for a long time. I don't feel the need to rush this. I am going to see how MC works out and just observe my marriage to get a sense of why she would lie about it. I'm hoping the right time will present itself and I'll knw it when I see it.


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## PooDoo

Paulination said:


> I haven't asked. She doesn't know I know. Instead of just reacting I am taking my time with it. I know the money is there and it has been for a long time. I don't feel the need to rush this. I am going to see how MC works out and just observe my marriage to get a sense of why she would lie about it. I'm hoping the right time will present itself and I'll knw it when I see it.


How your'e handling it is probably best. When(if) she eventually tells you, it will be good sign of a change of heart.


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## Paulination

Well another breakthrough tonight. Shes had her first orgasms (3) with me since this whole thing began. She came close a couple of times before but tonight she went wild.

We have MC tomorrow and I was going to let her have it on a couple of things. I feel like I should be more gentle. Don't want to mess with the karma.


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## Paulination

Paulination said:


> We have MC tomorrow and I was going to let her have it on a couple of things. I feel like I should be more gentle. Don't want to mess with the karma.


Well I was the one getting hammered today. Several people on this forum have pointed out that I exhibet controlling behavior from time to time and I totally disagreed (even if I don't say it). Well there seems to be something to that since the MC took what I thought were reasonable behaviors on my part and showed me otherwise. It was a tough session but a good one.

My wife confirmed that she is still in love with me, wants the passion and the closeness of a healthy marriage and wants it to be with me. Alot to build on.


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## dymo

This may just be a stray, paranoid thought. Might not even be worth thinking about.

Did you actually meet her toxic FB friend during her visit? Are we sure she is who you think it is? Could she actually be a he? Some cheaters communicate with guys using fake girl names. It would explain why she did not want you taking them out to dinner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Paulination

dymo said:


> This may just be a stray, paranoid thought. Might not even be worth thinking about.
> 
> Did you actually meet her toxic FB friend during her visit? Are we sure she is who you think it is? Could she actually be a he? Some cheaters communicate with guys using fake girl names. It would explain why she did not want you taking them out to dinner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I know exactly who she is. She used to live here but moved away 4 years ago. She has a disfunctional relationship with her husband who happens to be a dorky fat guy. She has had many problems with him in the past and I feel she gets off on my wife having problems of her own.


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## PooDoo

Paulination said:


> Well I was the one getting hammered today. Several people on this forum have pointed out that I exhibet controlling behavior from time to time and I totally disagreed (even if I don't say it). Well there seems to be something to that since the MC took what I thought were reasonable behaviors on my part and showed me otherwise. It was a tough session but a good one.
> 
> My wife confirmed that she is still in love with me, wants the passion and the closeness of a healthy marriage and wants it to be with me. Alot to build on.


I've got the same problem - thinking I'm obviously right. It's been a big obsacle. What 'controlling behavior' came up in MC? 
Sounds like things are going good!


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## Chaparral

Paulination said:


> Well I was the one getting hammered today. Several people on this forum have pointed out that I exhibet controlling behavior from time to time and I totally disagreed (even if I don't say it). Well there seems to be something to that since the MC took what I thought were reasonable behaviors on my part and showed me otherwise. It was a tough session but a good one.
> 
> My wife confirmed that she is still in love with me, wants the passion and the closeness of a healthy marriage and wants it to be with me. Alot to build on.


Can you be more specific? As in controlling as opposed to having boundaries. Or is this a completly different issue?


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## Paulination

Questioning her too often about what she does and who she texts with, wanting her to call when she is coming home from soccer so I have an idea of when she'll be home. I always felt the questioning is mere curiosity and the phone call was a courtesy but it apparently is me being controlling.

Funny how I leave MC with a list of stuff to work on and my wifes list consists of stuff she'll do once she feels like it (in reaction to my list).


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## Chaparral

Paulination said:


> Questioning her too often about what she does and who she texts with, wanting her to call when she is coming home from soccer so I have an idea of when she'll be home. I always felt the questioning is mere curiosity and the phone call was a courtesy but it apparently is me being controlling.
> 
> Funny how I leave MC with a list of stuff to work on and my wifes list consists of stuff she'll do once she feels like it (in reaction to my list).


If this is correctly stated, I think your MC is off base.

Ridiculous really. 

What did MC say about her wanting to not have sex a awhile back? MC a man or woman?


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## Beowulf

Paulination said:


> Questioning her too often about what she does and who she texts with, wanting her to call when she is coming home from soccer so I have an idea of when she'll be home. I always felt the questioning is mere curiosity and the phone call was a courtesy but it apparently is me being controlling.
> 
> Funny how I leave MC with a list of stuff to work on and my wifes list consists of stuff she'll do once she feels like it (in reaction to my list).


Ummm, I ask Morrigan all the time what she is up to. She texts me when she gets to work and when she leaves so I know she's safe. I don't consider that controlling. Must be that rampant codependency B.S. that today's counselors are spewing.


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## the guy

Ya my fWW calls me before and after work so as to make sure I"M safe. LOL

I guess I'm still healing.


Sorry for the threadjack p-


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## Paulination

chapparal said:


> If this is correctly stated, I think your MC is off base.
> 
> Ridiculous really.
> 
> What did MC say about her wanting to not have sex a awhile back? MC a man or woman?


Since we have been having sex, it really hasn't come up. The problem is that my recollections of things are different then my wifes. What I see (and know) as me being curious, to her is an interrogation. It comes out that way in counceling and when I defend myself, I am "defensive". The MC then councels based on my wifes interpretations and I come out with a list of stuff to work on.

I sound bitter, I know. I'm really not. I have learned some things so theres that but at the same time, there is not that much left for me to do. My wife at that point will be left with no choice but to do her share and at the very least will be on the hot seat to explain why she hasn't.

MC is a women BTW.


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