# Wifes logic about money vs reality



## 3kgtmitsu (Jul 28, 2012)

I keep beating my head against a wall here with my wife.

The back story in summary..

4 years in, I have been the sole provider for our money, I am self employed business owner. Wife went to nursing school and has finally graduated and now is working full time ~36 hrs per week.

As any business, we have good months and bad ones. We had to scrape by sometimes on the slow months, and I also wound up getting into some business debt and personal debt, because we were a 1 income home, with 2 kids.

Now, we have 2 incomes, and my wife seems to think that things are magically changed. I showed her on paper countless times how HUGE our budget was for a single family. In the long run, its going to get us ahead, but I don't think were going to see some real progress for at least another couple months. Were looking at probably a 100k plus income at this point vs 60-70k with my income alone.

Were renting a house, and after all bills, untilities, car payments, food etc its still upwards of $6k a month for our budget, which IMO is INSANE!! Only one car payment is in there, but there is a lot going towards debt.

She has only been working for 2 months tops, and Im in a season where there is a lot of ups and downs in business. She also insisted in putting my stepson in football, which means 3 nights a week of taking him to practice, games on weekends etc. She also doesn't understand the time cost associated with this, I was having to rush home and try to be there by 5pm on those days, which of course hurts my ability to get work done, which also leads to making less money on those days. Another disconnect.

Now that she has income, I can focus more on getting the business out of debt, because that is the biggest source of our income, it needs the most attention, and its not much, just short term $2-3k of debt. I bring this up, and she automatically goes into 'I don't understand how we are still in debt' mode.

Then another argument that has been coming up is 'My paycheck shouldn't ever go towards your business'. Which infuriates me, because I put my business in DEBT to pay our bills on some occasions!!! Seems pretty one sided huh?

Another thing, her income is decent, not awesome, but we also have an increase in child care costs, so that offsets some of it.

She seems to thing things are automatically fixed, and that its ok if we just spend extra on things here and there.

She is not one to track her spending, ever. I always had to show her how were were 'both' nickel and diming the crap out of our money to the tune of $20-30 at a time.

I have tried budgeting, and she says shes willing to get on board, but what that really means is me having to do all of it.

So this week, were visiting family for Thanksgiving, bought the ticket a month ago. Im losing an entire week of income myself. I have a payment to a supplier that HAS to get paid, and some of it just plain needs to come out of her income too. Its the last big chunk of my business debt then im pretty much in the clear. Im doing the math, between shop rent and personal bills were going to be ok, but no margin for error. Im also waiting on getting paid from customers, so the timing of leaving is horrible but it is what it is. I work on cars as half of my business, and sometimes we wind up having to order parts, and wait, and then get paid later.

Im getting grilled like im a horrible person and my business is just failing now and she just has to pick up all the slack. Never mind the logic of this being a short month, not like were slammed with work, not that its horrible, but its just average. And with me gone my income is all but cut off.

Im getting a disconnect with her with cause vs. effect. She doesn't seem to see how leaving effects anything, and life should just go on normal and her income just picks up the slack, and should not have to pay for business bills. Showing her math and how budgeting works doesn't help because she will forget in 2 days and be right back to 'I thought things were just ok' again.

I just don't think she appreciates all the sacrifice that happened when she was in school, or the fact that what little income she got while in school ended shortly (GI bill from the military was there for maybe the first year of our marriage).

Business just has ups and downs, it doesn't mean anyone is doing something wrong. Were incredibly lucky that we were able to make it for as long as we did, with her for one thing COSTING money instead of bringing any in.

Sorry if this all seems a little much to take in, I just feel distrusted right now. Honestly I wasn't up front about the business debt, because I didn't want her to worry too much about it, because shes the type that the 'world is coming to and end' during those conversations. 

I also don't feel like I get taken seriously, I have said countless times that this trip is a stretch, but then I see she just goes ahead and spends money on stuff that's not essential at all and wonders why I get mad about it. The attitude is that now that she makes money, she should be able to just spend without asking. 

I don't like to think this way, but I also think about how much cheaper the single life was. Expenses have tripled but income hasn't lol. Don't get me wrong, I love my family, but at the same time its hell, if I had a partner that was less of an emotional based spender it would help, but that's not my situation.

This has just came to a head with the the current circumstances. Were we staying home instead of traveling, I would be making money and not spending, so its just the combination of all of that, and now Im the bad guy because its that way. Of course if we didn't go back to visit family this week, it would be resentment and guilt tripping for months.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

You should keep you business and your personal expenses and debt separate.

Could the two of you take one of these classes Financial Peace University - daveramsey.com
it might help get you on the same page and working together.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

You created two problems:
1. Mixing business money and household income
2. Not getting your wife totally involved in the household finances.

What you need to do now, is to separate the two. Get all the financial statement from your business and all household debts and expenses. Sit down with your wife and work thru them. Get her to start paying some bills and become more involved. 

You need to get an accountant to set up your system so, that your business is run on its own and not be involved with your personal finances. The two has to be separated.

You and your wife might also want to meet with a financial planner so you can map out your financial future together. So you are both working towards the same goal. Good luck.


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## Lostme (Nov 14, 2014)

IMPO-I think she should help get the business out of debt, since part of the reason for the debt is because she was not working at the time. Once the business is out of debt, then all expenses should be separate IE business and household. 

Once the business debt is cleaned up, she needs to understand that the business bills have to come first from your end, in order to keep the business going and what you have left will go toward the household. Let her know that means that more of her income will end up toward the household, she should not have a problem stepping up to the plate as you have done while she was in school.

Make sure that you both sit down and do the bills together each time so she can see how the money is spent. You probably have done that already if so keep on doing it. It will give you both a better understanding about where the money is going.

She is probably excited that she has an income, and feels good about buying things, which you can't blame her. But sit down with all monies and if there is extra divide that between the 2 of you and then each of you get a little fun money.


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## 3kgtmitsu (Jul 28, 2012)

They have always been separated. I just had to take more pay for myself in order to cover our household. But if I need to borrow from personal to pay for business im going to do it. Cant get shut down over not wanting to pay a bill because I means taking some personal money to do it. The impact of that would be 100x worse than just having a little less personal money to deal with.

The truth of the matter, we really couldn't afford to have her in school, and not making any income during that time. Which really is a rock and a hard place, need the money of her income but went broke waiting to get to it. 

We have been thru dave ramsey, I agree with everything he says. We just were living beyond our means and had no real way to get it under control unless we both participated, with her not only not having income, but also increasing expenses, im suprized we made it at all. To make any of DR stuff work, you first have to make more than you spend...period.

The argument would of just been 'you don't make enough money, your a bad provider' etc. If not straight out saying it, by implication.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

It always amuses me when a partner who hasn't bothered contributing to the financial burden for most of a relationship finally gets a job and has this "your money is my money, and my money is my money" mentality.

Its borne from someone who takes the long-term financial burden and struggle from the other person for granted.

Part of the problem, however, is that you're not standing up to her crap. If the trip this week was infeasible for you due to serious business issues than you should have told her that you're sorry but you aren't going. Period. She clearly doesn't get it but you do so you need to tell her 'NO.'

Then you need to be totally upfront with her and tell her everything and hopefully bring her into a financial agreement on how to handle things going forward. 

If she refuses to agree or comply, then you need to put your foot down and set some clear boundaries. Ask yourself how she gets the power to make the decision when she's never accountable for the outcome.


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## thebirdman (Apr 5, 2014)

1. Keep a well defined line between your business and personal finances. I made the mistake of not doing this. It has cost me a lot in the long term and you want to make sure that your business liabilities trickle into your personal life as little as possible.
2. Regularly reintroduce your wife to your finances. Make it clear that you want/need her input. My wife is not a wasteful person by any means. She is actually fairly frugal but I have often felt that we are not completely on the same page otherwise. Every once in a while I print off a copy of the books for that month, sit her down, and go over our financial situation with her: where all the money comes from and goes, what all the accounts are for, how long it will take to pay this loan off, etc. I usually ask her what she thinks about our finances and if she would like to change anything while making it clear that I find her input necessary and want her to have a clear understanding of how our finances work in case anything ever happens to me. 
She usually cares nothing about managing our finances but she does participate when I ask for input and I do feel like she understands everything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3kgtmitsu (Jul 28, 2012)

the reality of owning a business, business effects your personal life and vice versa. They may be separated by different banks, or different accounts, or different locations etc but its still all tied together.

I had to do some bail outs, accounts with money having money spent while checks were waiting to clear. Some of it was me, some of it was her.. I definitely think she wasn't listening well though. 2 days after the buckle down speech there would be purchases on ebay/amazon or some weird health food website or athletic wear. Not that any one of those things were a problem but the combination was wearing us down.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

This is like EngimaGirl says, you need to set boundaries and let your wife knows them. When, something is not working for you and prevents you from earning a living, you have to show her the financial implication. You cannot continue to let things slide and have her living in her fantasy land. You can only do this by having her sit down with you and go over the finances.

Until, the two of you are on the same page. Nothing is going to change. Sit down weekly/biweekly and go over your finances. Give her a copy of the budget. Get her to start logging all of her expenses. Every penny so, she can see where the money is going. 

You have to stop protecting her and bring her into reality. I am the bad guy in our house. I take care of our finances. So, I understand what you are going thru. I have to constantly keep my husband in check or he will give everything to our families because he is too kind hearted. 

I day trade, so it's a constant battle to grow our money and spending it. I just have to remind him of our goals. I open my books to him, show him my projection. Then, we look at household income and expenses. I just have to keep him alert to how the money is coming in and how we are spending it. 

The most important thing is that I have to open up to him with the money. The children are also, involved. So, no-one goes crazy asking for stuff. We have a daughter in college now and that is not cheap. And the child loves to eat. Our son will be off in 1 1/2 years time. So, staying on top of everything is very important.

One person cannot be spending like there is no tomorrow and the other person is trying to keep things floating. Or very soon, we all will be drowning. So, somehow you have to get her to participate fully in the running of the finances.


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## 3kgtmitsu (Jul 28, 2012)

Kind of brings me to the whole reason I posted this.

I tell her were cutting it close, I was stressing about the trip and being gone. Its all about the timing, and having cars sitting waiting on parts that im out of pocket on. Were out $1300 non refundable tickets if we don't go. So no one wants to stay home, but if the tickets were not purchased yet it would be a no brainer, don't go. Travel is too expensive around holidays anyways. But we would still be ok if we just don't spend much while away.

This morning I get a notification from the bank, over a purchase made online for essential oils, $132, not only did this infuriate me but that's twice this month meaning $264 for what IMO is garbage and does nothing, and is as far from a necessity as you can get. That is a total disregard to the budget...period. $264 is not that much, but its like a kick in the teeth when your already trying to get ahead. It doesn't many actions like that to wash out an income.

When confronted, her response is 'I didn't realize we were cutting it that close'. 2 days ago we just discussed the budget. I put my foot down, shes getting it refunded or were not going, whether or not we can afford it is a moot point. I take that as disregard to what I say.

So this is my conundrum, I feel like shes on board to save money, except for when she wants something, then caution goes to the wind and its my fault somehow. I feel like I am married to the master of manipulation and guilt. 

I feel largely she has been trained to think this way, which makes me question if shes really ever going to be a true partner not always have her own agenda.

End rant.




EnigmaGirl said:


> It always amuses me when a partner who hasn't bothered contributing to the financial burden for most of a relationship finally gets a job and has this "your money is my money, and my money is my money" mentality.
> 
> Its borne from someone who takes the long-term financial burden and struggle from the other person for granted.
> 
> ...


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

I don't know if this would help but both my husband and I keep our finances in spreadsheet format....and a separate file for our business.

For year's when I had to budget, I used a reverse budget process. So what I would do is figure out all expenses, all investment deductions and put them all as subtractions from my income line. Then whatever was left over, I was able to spend or dump into a savings account. Its simplistic and it works very, very well. You both need access to that spreadsheet and she should be actively involved in setting it up so that she gets it. Right now, she's not getting it.

The deductions were set-up with my bank and the money was simply moved....so it wasn't in my checking account and therefore, couldn't be used for something unintended.

When I got remarried, my husband basically uses the same approach (except he goes into full nerd mode with graphs and scenario planning) and we both went through each other's stuff. 

It really helps to know how your money is working for you and what left-over is available. Everyone needs a bit of discretionary income to spend on whatever they want but it needs to be understood and managed.

I wouldn't pick on any of her individual purchases, that's just likely to start a war. Its pretty common for men to not understand the stuff that women spend money on and vice versa. But she needs to be FULLY involved in the budgeting process for both your personal and business finances and you need to work together with her.

I think the problem is that you're being a bit wishy-washy and then getting furious because she's not reading between the lines. I can guess this because if you were being perfectly clear, the $1300 tickets would have never been bought in the first place. There's no way someone's buying you a ticket for something that you've strongly said you're not going to.

I think a lot of this is about murky communication.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

She seems like someone who needs external limits set for her. She feels that since she now has a job, it's now possible for her to spend on herself instead of having to be frugal. She sees that you are now a two-income family and wants to benefit from that right away, and doesn't realize the hole you had been in before she became employed.

You were borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, and now that Mary has money, it needs to be used to repay Peter to stop the whole cycle. She may find that hard to comprehend.

I would suggest explaining to her that prior to her employment, you were not surviving but were falling backwards for quite some time, and there's a hole to dig out of before she can spend as she likes. Give yourselves each an allowance for fun spending, but put limits on it that slowly go up over time. So she can see that the limits are temporary. If she's not understanding that from the way you are explaining it, she may think you are trying to run the finances like this forever.

If she has trouble with the notion of her income supplementing your business, tell her that it's her turn to pay all the household bills for a while during the business' recovery period. That might be easier for her to accept (even though we all know it's technically the same thing) as it doesn't feel to her like she's rescuing your business.


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## 3kgtmitsu (Jul 28, 2012)

Sigh..yep been thru all that. Btw the tickets were purchased months ago. Not like thats effecting the current situation. Its just a case of not being listened to. She also just spent some money on a race and athletic wear. She needs to just have a seperate account for all that instead of it just draining our main account. She can have some personal fun money but dont spend what we need to survive!


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## 3kgtmitsu (Jul 28, 2012)

Shes had a 'if the card works it must be ok' approach for a while. She said while she was single she always just winged it and never budgeted..which became very clear when she acted like $200 here $300 there was no biggie. She had become accustomed to jusr having the GI bill and a couple other monthlys always just being there..and to this day has a hard time adjusting although complaining about bills not being paid. Im a lot more regimented and i have to plan for weeks even months out. I just dont know how to get her to be Really on the same page.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

3kgtmitsu said:


> I keep beating my head against a wall here with my wife.
> 
> The back story in summary..
> 
> ...



Sit down and relax...Look at this as a long haul...not WE HAVE TO PAY EVERYTHING OFF NOW.....Get a little perspective on things, and then tell your wife she is going to pick up some of the slack on a regular basis...Either give her a certain number of bills each month, or a certain amount of cash in a *bills only *account...Look at getting squared away over the next two years....And make sure she knows her help is vital, and much appreciated...


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Counselling re: money. ASAP. Yours, hers and ours for the money. Figure out a system that works for everyone.

My H has a business. I'm employed with a very good income. He pays monthly bills, my income basically goes to savings except for soft expenses like groceries, gas, etc. My job covers health insurance, pension, etc.

If his LOC gets high before he pays it off, nature of his business, then I cover some major expenses. Excess income from his business 1) pays off debt if we have any, 2) gets invested for our retirement twice a year.

We also budget at tax time for any major expenditures (e.g. renos) and an annual vacation, which is booked in advance each year. We schedule rest and relaxation for the family.

Works for us, but everyone is different.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

Woodchuck said:


> Sit down and relax...Look at this as a long haul...not WE HAVE TO PAY EVERYTHING OFF NOW.....Get a little perspective on things, and then tell your wife she is going to pick up some of the slack on a regular basis...Either give her a certain number of bills each month, or a certain amount of cash in a *bills only *account...Look at getting squared away over the next two years....And make sure she knows her help is vital, and much appreciated...


^i agree. if you are failing to get through to her about a budget, then the only way is to separate the finances. She needs her own account for her paycheck, and she has x amount of bills that she is responsible for paying, and then what's left over is her fun money. 

alternately, you could put her on a cash budget. The envelope system is popular with Dave Ramsey followers. ie: this is your money after bills. buy groceries, kids lunch money, clothes, shoes etc. whatever is left over is yours to do with what you want. If it's easier, you could load that amount on a prepaid card for her and take all other cards away so that she can still shop on amazon. It's drastic, but if she's dragging you under financially then you have to do what's best for the family as a whole.


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## ShadowOfDoubt (Aug 5, 2012)

Guessing your business is a sole proprietorship. You are your business and file a schedule C. If so, the schedule C goes along with your 1040 which you both sign. Accounting wise the business is separate, but responsibility wise it's not separate from you.

I see this as a marriage problem. In a marriage (without unity) we can wrongly think in terms of "AND" or "OR" logic. If your marriage is working on AND logic. Then "No" is controlling your relationship - there's no leadership. Example, I want to pay off the debt but she says no. If "yes" is controlling your relationship - someone is dominating. In marriage 1 + 1 = 1. You guys need to work on that.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

sixty-eight said:


> ^i agree. if you are failing to get through to her about a budget, then the only way is to separate the finances. She needs her own account for her paycheck, and she has x amount of bills that she is responsible for paying, and then what's left over is her fun money.
> 
> alternately, you could put her on a cash budget. The envelope system is popular with Dave Ramsey followers. ie: this is your money after bills. buy groceries, kids lunch money, clothes, shoes etc. whatever is left over is yours to do with what you want. If it's easier, you could load that amount on a prepaid card for her and take all other cards away so that she can still shop on amazon. It's drastic, but if she's dragging you under financially then you have to do what's best for the family as a whole.


I thought my wife invented those stupid "Bill" envelopes...I was the wage earner, she handled paying the bills..I would say "give me some gas money" she would dig through piles of envelopes looking for the "right $20".....:scratchhead:


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

3kgtmitsu said:


> We have been thru dave ramsey, I agree with everything he says. We just were living beyond our means and had no real way to get it under control unless we both participated, with her not only not having income, but also increasing expenses, im suprized we made it at all. *To make any of DR stuff work, you first have to make more than you spend...period.*


I'm pretty sure any budgeting plan requires *that*, not just the ones from Dave Ramsey...


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

nah, it's popular. honestly, i don't think it's that efficient. it's not like if there's no gas money in the gas money envelope, then you stop driving your car to work. keeping a spreadsheet of expenses like that based on receipts/bank statements should be sufficient, and simply staying under a general limit. If you can't stay under, then you don't get fun money left over. simple as that.

but sending the less frugal spouse to the grocery with only cash in an envelope works wonders. Even better if they can only take cash clothes shopping. It really makes you rethink want vs. need. If they don't have access to money earmarked for bills or the business, then they can't overspend into those funds.

OP could just remove all the funds for bills/business into a separate account and leave her the rest in the family account, but if she's not willing to understand the budget, then she'll just bounce checks or overdraft the account. She needs to be caught up to speed, and if not willing, then limited to handing the funds she is willing to understand.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Given that she is new to making her own money, I am skeptical she will be open to any kind of control system like Ramsey.

Given the nature of the OP's business, this might be a system that could work for him, however.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Woodchuck said:


> I thought my wife invented those stupid "Bill" envelopes...I was the wage earner, she handled paying the bills..I would say "give me some gas money" she would dig through piles of envelopes looking for the "right $20".....:scratchhead:


I did that for awhile many years ago. It does work.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

OP I can relate. What some people don't understand is that as a self employed person, the business is personal. There is no separation.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Those damn envelopes! While working as a teller, had several customers bring in the paycheck and the envelopes and request that I divide the money and put it in the envelopes and seal them. Had to inform them that I could divide but they had to count to confirm and place them in the envelopes themselves. The transaction took 3 times as long as any other with customers in line getting mad as hell.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Ynot said:


> OP I can relate. What some people don't understand is that as a self employed person, the business is personal. There is no separation.


This isn't necessarily true. The place I work is just the owner and me. The owner keeps all expenses and debt separate from personal. Work is work, home is home. What can change is the dividends taken so they pay themselves a livable wage as a base and treat dividends as extra income. You can't rely on or budget based on good months. 
The business also typically only gets paid for items bought 6 months later so there needs to be enough budget planning within it to accommodate that. 


But regardless, there are different methods of budgeting irregular income.
How to Budget Irregular Income

But having 3 accounts- 2 personal for each of you and 1 for household bills that are separate from any business accounts would be a good idea. She gets as much spending money as is planned and once it's gone, it's gone. 
If there is a month with extra cash, it gets put into an emergency fund or goes to pay down chunks of personal debt that will save interest in the long term.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> This isn't necessarily true. The place I work is just the owner and me. The owner keeps all expenses and debt separate from personal. Work is work, home is home. What can change is the dividends taken so they pay themselves a livable wage as a base and treat dividends as extra income. You can't rely on or budget based on good months.
> The business also typically only gets paid for items bought 6 months later so there needs to be enough budget planning within it to accommodate that.
> 
> 
> ...


The place you WORK it is just the OWNER and you. You are not the owner. It is NOT your business. The OWNER's business is his income. it is personal to the owner. He has to budget the money. Paying you is one of his expenses. If he he doesn't make enough to pay his expenses, including your salary, then he doesn't get paid himself that week, or month, or year.
That is one reason why I never took on help. I didn't want to be responsible for someone else's livelihood. Although in effect my ex was my "employee"
When I was married I had business accounts and personal accounts. I drew a regular amount out of my business account as a salary. But if there wasn't money in my business account to pay for what was due, I often had to take money out of my personal account to pay it or I didn't take my regular draw because the money wasn't there. Many in small business do this all the time. That is one of the drawbacks of having a small business. Having an LOC helped smooth that out. But then that stole from future income.
My ex could never understand the ups and downs of having a small business and I was constantly scrambling to keep up with her wants and needs. Since I have gotten divorced and only worry about myself now, my finances have gotten much easier to handle and I have been able to save consistently.
The problem was I was always trying to solve a problem that had two variables (business income and ex/family) that didn't often sync with each other.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I know the money end of things where I work, that's part of my job. 

If the business didn't make enough to pay a wage to the owner and employees and/or pay for it's own expenses it would not be a worthwhile business and I would suggest finding something different. 
Starting up there may be some bumps along the road but once you're well into it you should have consistent enough profit to pay for expenses and wages and money put away for any bad months that may come up.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I know the money end of things where I work, that's part of my job.
> 
> If the business didn't make enough to pay a wage to the owner and employees and/or pay for it's own expenses it would not be a worthwhile business and I would suggest finding something different.
> Starting up there may be some bumps along the road but once you're well into it you should have consistent enough profit to pay for expenses and wages and money put away for any bad months that may come up.


The issue of whether the business can pay its own expenses is not the question. The question is a matter of cash flow. And cash flow and expenses do not always work in sync with each other. I can guarantee you that if the cash flow dries up for whatever reason, the person who owns the business is going to effected personally, because in order to keep the concern going expenses must be paid. You as an employee, will get paid, but the owner will take the hit one way or another.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Ynot said:


> The issue of whether the business can pay its own expenses is not the question. The question is a matter of cash flow. And cash flow and expenses do not always work in sync with each other. I can guarantee you that if the cash flow dries up for whatever reason, the person who owns the business is going to effected personally, because in order to keep the concern going expenses must be paid. You as an employee, will get paid, but the owner will take the hit one way or another.


Well like I said the only thing that changes is the amount of dividends taken but since the owner is paid a wage they can live on the dividends are extra cash, not planned cash. 
There is never a time when things get so bad that the owner can't pay themselves their normal wage or the business can't fund the expenses until we get paid for the work and needs to use any personal money to float. 

And I'm super glad for that because it would make the books a lot harder to work on :laugh:

It's just planning, budgeting and if the business is successful or not. This business, BTW, is a family one. I will own it someday and I will use the same method when I do. 

I wouldn't be ok if H had a business that required him to use personal money to float or couldn't pay himself a decent, regular wage. Sounds way too up in the air and unstable for me. I like knowing what money is coming in, what's going out and what I need to save.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

All that I can add is that I can relate. Like you, I'm a small business owner, and my wife work is a quasi-public employee (meaning that she's paid via tax dollars). Her knowledge of money equates to that of our dog. In her mind, she makes money so thus she can spend how she likes. It's hard dealing with someone like that, especially when they don't want to learn. 

My suggestion - when you get your business debt paid off, start saving money in the business. Set up a retirement plan so that you can sock money away. Take home enough to pay the bills, but nothing more.


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## optimalprimus (Feb 4, 2015)

sixty-eight said:


> nah, it's popular. honestly, i don't think it's that efficient. it's not like if there's no gas money in the gas money envelope, then you stop driving your car to work. keeping a spreadsheet of expenses like that based on receipts/bank statements should be sufficient, and simply staying under a general limit. If you can't stay under, then you don't get fun money left over. simple as that.
> 
> but sending the less frugal spouse to the grocery with only cash in an envelope works wonders. Even better if they can only take cash clothes shopping. It really makes you rethink want vs. need. If they don't have access to money earmarked for bills or the business, then they can't overspend into those funds.
> 
> OP could just remove all the funds for bills/business into a separate account and leave her the rest in the family account, but if she's not willing to understand the budget, then she'll just bounce checks or overdraft the account. She needs to be caught up to speed, and if not willing, then limited to handing the funds she is willing to understand.


Reminds me of a (probably made up) anecdote i heard from a v popular US Academic.

Gene Hackman and dustin hoffman were friends when they were staying out in acting. Dustin was short of cash to pay his rent so Gene lent him $100.

A few weeks later Gene visited Dustin in his apartment and noticed 3 jars full of quartersvand dollar bills.

He politely asked Dustin when he thought he might be able to have his $100 back. Dustin responded by saying he was totally broke and was actually going to ask if he could borrow a little more until a cheque landed from a recent job.

Gene couldn't resist mentioning the jars of money. Dustins response:

"No! Thats my gas money and my utilities money and the money for if I need to travel back home..."

Don't know how the story ended.

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Ynot said:


> OP I can relate. What some people don't understand is that as a self employed person, the business is personal. There is no separation.


Ynot is correct. While a self-employed owner can create some structures to keep personal and business finances separate, and its good practice to do so, in the end any shortfalls are made up from the personal finances of the owner. The IRS and CRA certainly don't make a distinction if the company fails and debts need paying. Lots of sole proprietors have lost homes over failed businesses.

If the self-employed person happens to have a corporation (many professionals set this structure up) they may elect to not pay themselves a salary, or a a reduced one, if finances are tight.

I find people who have actually owned businesses tend to understand these ups and downs much better than those who simply work for others and collect a paycheque. Which is why when financing a business or deal its always less painful to raise money from other business people than a bank. Bank employees, loan officers, just don't get it, most never having taken the risk of starting a business themselves.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Recently sold business so I can appreciate where you're at - also my long distance "partner" had no interest and refused to go over the household figures or our business numbers.

She has to pay her part of the bills - you have to work out which part of the debt is consumer/household debt - and both be responsible for each of your portions, including you drawing a wage/commission to do so.
Just like any other investment or debt.

Sadly I think it's not going to end well because wage earners have huge (impassable?) difficulty understanding the nature of business and business debt (and things like tax / accounts payable issues). 
That is one reason my ex-wife spent everything we had - if I ordered parts for a customer, she figured she was entitled to spend some money too, and since she worked at the bank and handled the cash managment, I could never work out why the company seemed to be in a death spiral no matter what I did.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Sadly I think it's not going to end well because wage earners have huge (impassable?) difficulty understanding the nature of business and business debt (and things like tax / accounts payable issues).
> That is one reason my ex-wife spent everything we had - if I ordered parts for a customer, she figured she was entitled to spend some money too, and since she worked at the bank and handled the cash managment, I could never work out why the company seemed to be in a death spiral no matter what I did.


Man can I relate to that statement ^^^^^.
My ex always though I should take a job since it "paid" more that I "made" in my business. What I could never get her to understand was that quite a bit of day to day living expenses were actually paid with pre tax dollars through the business. I would have to take a job "paying" approximately 2X what I earned in the business to maintain the same life style.
If I took a job, we would have even more expenses - such as clothing, commuting, cell phones, internet service etc which would now be paid in after tax dollars since I could no longer expense these in a business.
To her $75,000 was $75,000 regardless of where it came from.


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## Anubis (Jul 12, 2011)

@3kgtmitsu - let me add a little more food for thought, in addition to all the good advice you are getting here:

There is a (good?) chance that deep down inside, your wife does NOT want to know how your business (or your household) finances work. And that is going to be a continual barrier, adding friction to everything you try. Some part of her wishes you just made enough money to do what she wants, and for it to be supplied without interruption, hassle, or accountability. ( Let me run with this thought for a bit, and see if it or something similar sheds light on her dynamic about money, marriage, etc )

Other parts of her (for lack of a better term) are grounded in the reality of the moment - when you don't have enough money, etc, and need to deal with a specific situation. But when the danger (situation) has passed, her mind reverts back to wishing things were (plentiful/hassle-free etc), and she loses the focus. Which is why she keeps slipping back to the state of not understanding the problem, or doing anything to improve the future. Living (care-free, or at least care-reduced ) financially in the moment is where she wants to be. Tomorrow is your problem, not hers. This is probably an idea she got in her head in her youth, about how things are "supposed" to be (had she picked a good enough (aka successful/rich enough) husband.

This doesn't mean she's a classic gold digger, etc. Just that she has this inner narrative and it sort of acts like a 'baseline' which she reverts to. She says to herself "I'm the woman/wife/mother and it's not my job to deal with xxxx - it's his job. I SHOULD NOT have to concern myself with these things (and thus does so only begrudgingly)" She doesn't come out and say this for maybe multiple reasons: she feels she shouldn't have to, she doesn't fully realize it in a self-aware way, she knows she's "supposed to" step up and help in times of need (though wishes she didn't ever have to), she feels it's her fault for not marrying "better" money-wise and has to suffer through it, etc, etc. And when it's 'not her responsibility', it makes it easy for her to give you crap for not 'doing your job' by making enough, rather than seeing things as a true partnership and 'we're in this together'.

Also wrapping herself up in the "mommy" role may intensify her feelings that she 'deserves' the impulse spending she does, especially if it is 'for the kids'. 

None of this means she doesn't love you, or wants to trade you in for an investment banker (though it can make your relationship more vulnerable t that). I just want you to consider that she may have built-in ideas and biases about roles and money that go waaay back in her mind, and they contribute to the Groundhog Day / Treadmill nature of these issues.

Finally, if something like what I just described is going on, then to make real change that lasts you may need to stop treating her as an equal partner when it comes to money, and run both your finances more akin to a dictatorship. If deep inside she see making all the money as your responsibility, then you will need to exercise unequal power over it for the good of your family.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Anubis said:


> @3kgtmitsu - let me add a little more food for thought, in addition to all the good advice you are getting here:
> 
> There is a (good?) chance that deep down inside, your wife does NOT want to know how your business (or your household) finances work. And that is going to be a continual barrier, adding friction to everything you try. Some part of her wishes you just made enough money to do what she wants, and for it to be supplied without interruption, hassle, or accountability. ( Let me run with this thought for a bit, and see if it or something similar sheds light on her dynamic about money, marriage, etc )
> 
> ...


The only thing I would change in this post is this:

Finally, if something like what I just described is going on, then to make real change that lasts you may need to stop treating her as an equal partner when it comes to money, and run both your finances more akin to a *BENEVOLENT *dictatorship. 

This post is very much along the line of Samurai Jacks letter to his wife concerning the scripts running through her mind. Most of us have been handed one from the time we are born. The script becomes so familiar to us that we perfect it to the point of actually believing it ourselves. And we don't even realize we are only reading a script because we are only doing what was expected of us by others. Once that realization has been made putting down the script is the next thing and from there to adlibbing our own lives based on our specific wants and needs.
Good post, sorry for editorializing on it.


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## lovecat (Jul 31, 2015)

Just wondering why your monthly expenses are so high and if you can cut back and why didn't you cut back when you only had one income from a business that wasn't supporting your current expenses and lifestyle?


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

Anubis said:


> @3kgtmitsu - let me add a little more food for thought, in addition to all the good advice you are getting here:
> 
> There is a (good?) chance that deep down inside, your wife does NOT want to know how your business (or your household) finances work. And that is going to be a continual barrier, adding friction to everything you try. Some part of her wishes you just made enough money to do what she wants, and for it to be supplied without interruption, hassle, or accountability. ( Let me run with this thought for a bit, and see if it or something similar sheds light on her dynamic about money, marriage, etc )
> 
> ...


This hits the nail on the head - my wife is always in Mommy mode and thinks that we can spend whatever we want on the kids. In her mind, because she has a job, she can spend what she makes. She's always throwing away food in the fridge - because we both have jobs, it's not a big deal to her. Give her dumbass sister money because she can't live within her means? Of course, we have savings that we can give her, and if I say anything, it's because I hate her family.


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## 3kgtmitsu (Jul 28, 2012)

Well the dynamic just changed dramatically because she just lost her job so im going to just have to take an even higher level of control over her until she gets an income.

My fear is that while her intent may be good..she wants to get some bills paid..shes just gonna write a stack of checks and mail them out without asking and then either leave us with no money or massive overdrafts.

Her logic is confusing. She wants everything to be paid NOW and implys that im doing something wrong if i cant just come up with 10k on the fly..lol. As if business is just a matter of turning up a knob that is labeled 'income'. 

Secondly, I put in some extra hours this week and she has the nerve to complain about it.


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## 3kgtmitsu (Jul 28, 2012)

Im really starting to understand why money issues lead to divorice. Im supposed fo feel ****ty because we struggle to stay ontop of a $6k per month budget..while no effort to cut corners is made on her part. I consider my business a success..and at some point the reality of the debt creation this marriage has led to is going to come to a head. The plain and simple harsh truth is that if I were single even with child support my expenses would instantly be cut literally in half..im giving a lot of grace right now and giving her the chance to get on her feet and solid in her career and MAYBE we can one day have a happy marriage. But as far as finances go..the math does not work out in our favor at the moment.

But im not going to continue to be treated as if im the only one whos doing something wrong..thats gonna change even if it takes counseling. Its a big problem even her family has to point out to her. She is always justified and in the right even when proven otherwise..and even when she does admit wrong shes gonna take someone down with her. Funny thing is she prides herself in pointing out others problems. But thats for a whole different discussion.


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## 3kgtmitsu (Jul 28, 2012)

We were both in better financial states before we met. I had paid off 2 vehicle loans..was working on student loan debt and a few residual debts from a previous business. I was always $2k ahead of my expenses every month and my income was much less than now..go figure. She was a student living off the GI bill and child support as well as monthly drill pay. There were some red flags when we were dating..which I should of taken heed too. For example she always complained to be poor and I paid for everything. I spent Waaaay to much that first summer.. As it turned out she typically had $10k in the bank somehow. I actually didnt even know a lot of this until we tied the knot. 

So yes its been 4 years of me essentialy paying for it all..shes obsessed with having more children but im insisting that we get other stuff in line first..the last thing we need is another mouth to feed.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

3kgtmitsu said:


> We were both in better financial states before we met. I had paid off 2 vehicle loans..was working on student loan debt and a few residual debts from a previous business. I was always $2k ahead of my expenses every month and my income was much less than now..go figure. She was a student living off the GI bill and child support as well as monthly drill pay. There were some red flags when we were dating..which I should of taken heed too. *For example she always complained to be poor and I paid for everything. * I spent Waaaay to much that first summer.. As it turned out she typically had $10k in the bank somehow. I actually didnt even know a lot of this until we tied the knot.


Yeah, why do we only have to do financial disclosure at separation/divorce, but not at marriage?

Now you have that red flag figured out, you know what you can work with. She has a deeply-ingrained attitude that the man makes the money. Can you divide things up budget wise so that your entire income handles the necessary expenses, and hers is what goes to the frills and fun?

We all know it goes into the same pot, but maybe SHE needs to view it differently, that YOU are doing the supporting, and her income is the splurging. 

You cover the mortgage, the utilities, the groceries, the gas, etc, while she covers the restaurants, the entertainment, the new clothes, the haircuts, the saving for a new car, loaning to whiny sisters, that sort of thing.



3kgtmitsu said:


> So yes its been 4 years of me essentialy paying for it all..shes obsessed with having more children but im insisting that we get other stuff in line first..the last thing we need is another mouth to feed.


That might be your best leverage. Tell her you don't agree to having another child unless your finances are sorted out. It's not fair to do that to the family or the new child. Give her a year or two to eliminate your debts AND get used to the new way of budgeting before you agree to get pregnant.

If she wants a child badly enough, it's her incentive to learn how money works.


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