# Wife has fallen out of love after 16 years of marriage



## LeMont

My wife and I have known each other since we were kids, but never were romantically involved until we both had failed marriages when we were younger. From her 1st marriage she had 2 children. I have no biological children, but became involved with her children when they were still young. Closer to present my wife began to work to finish her degree, met new friends and took advantage of an opportunity to spend 6 months abroad. When she came home, I began to notice lots of changes. She became extremely distant. I asked her about it and she only admitted that she had fallen out of love after a year of treating me obviously differently. Our children are grown and out of the house and she just wants to hang with her friends all of the time, traveling with them etc. She says that she both wants to stay in the marriage but she does not want to be tied down at the same time. After her declaration, she seems to be trying, we are going to MC for about a month. Even still for me it seems like I am waiting for her to decide to leave. I am trying to be patient, but it is really painful just waiting when she says that it is not my fault and does not know why she no longer is in love with me. What do I do????


----------



## Toffer

Did anything happen while she was away for those six months?

I would be very suspicious

Does she keep her phone with her at all times? Is she deleting texts from it? Any other changes like new clothes, weight loss, unexplained absences?


----------



## NeedTLC

Last year I went across country for 6 months for work. Since I returned, I've had a difficult time going back to the "status quo". 

There is a romance about going from wife & mother to single lady that is liberating and eye opening. No arguing over stupid things (who forgot to buy more toilet paper, who didn't empty the coffee pot, who left the light on, etc.). No worrying about another person's needs. I only had to worry about myself on a daily basis. Go when I wanted to go (or stay if I wanted to stay), no one to wake me up in the morning, or keep me up at night.

During this time I grew in ways, both professionally and personally, that I hadn't dreamed of. My self-esteem rose rapidly and I was feeling good about myself. Fast forward to present. DH is nagging about this, DD's are arguing about that, dog needs out, cat needs food, car needs gas, blah blah blah. It makes me reminisce about what I had.

What would have helped me was some special attention and appreciation that I was back home. Sincere words like "Boy we missed you. No one does all that you do. Thanks for doing these things again. Yes, we did them without you, but you do them better and we're so grateful, blah blah blah." It seems cheesy, but it would have helped. Plus some romance from the DH. I needed him to show me that he really missed me...and not just for the household things, but as a partner too. I'm wanting more from him and I've not been very good about articulating it.

I don't know if this helps, but it might offer a different perspective. Good luck!


----------



## iheartlife

This is the I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You (ILYBINILWY) speech.

It predicts with over 90% accuracy that she has met someone else and has developed a secret relationship with them that she is not sharing with you. It is a classic thing for cheating spouses to say. She probably met someone abroad. It was a very bad idea for the two of you to be apart so long.

FYI, MC is worthless (totally worthless) with 3 people in the marriage. If she is keeping a secret relationship, she is going through the motions of "working on the marriage" but the next step, not too far from now, is for her to announce that despite "working" really, really, really hard, she still wants out. Only you will have seen for yourself that she didn't put much effort into the marriage at all, at which point you will wonder why you spent $$$$$ on an MC.

Find out if there is another person--there almost surely is. Do not confront her immediately; come back for more advice. It will take every ounce of willpower not to confront, but wait. If you exercise restraint and follow a plan, you have the best chance of saving your marriage, if that is what you want to do. Confronting early leads the disloyal spouse to hide the affair better and cut off your other methods of determining if they are communicating. So investigate your concerns and fears, confirm the worst if that is what it is, then seek more advice before taking your next steps.

I would still keep the appointment for the MC, but just go in there knowing that she is hiding her innermost thoughts from you. Maybe they will come spilling out--but if she's been keeping them to herself all this time--chances are they won't until you discover the truth on your own.


----------



## This is me

So are these new friends of the same sex? Even if so 6 months abroad and falling out of love smells like cheating. She wants the perks of marriage but not to be tied down? Cheating.

So the obvious missing information, is she cheating? Red flags galore.

You need to do some under the radar snooping and do not let her know unless/until you discover the truth.

Learn the 180 now, for yourself.

I am sorry this is happening to you. I wish you well.


----------



## Entropy3000

LeMont said:


> My wife and I have known each other since we were kids, but never were romantically involved until we both had failed marriages when we were younger. From her 1st marriage she had 2 children. I have no biological children, but became involved with her children when they were still young. Closer to present my wife began to work to finish her degree, met new friends and took advantage of an opportunity to spend 6 months abroad. When she came home, I began to notice lots of changes. She became extremely distant. I asked her about it and she only admitted that she had fallen out of love after a year of treating me obviously differently. Our children are grown and out of the house and she just wants to hang with her friends all of the time, traveling with them etc. She says that she both wants to stay in the marriage but she does not want to be tied down at the same time. After her declaration, she seems to be trying, we are going to MC for about a month. Even still for me it seems like I am waiting for her to decide to leave. I am trying to be patient, but it is really painful just waiting when she says that it is not my fault and does not know why she no longer is in love with me. What do I do????


While she was away she went through withdrawal from you.

It is highly likely she had developed feelings for someone else. Sounds like she wants a more open marriage or just wanting to trade up.

This looks like that now that the kids are gone and she has updated her education she may be feeling like opening up her life style or doing a little hypergamy. Call it what you will, her view of her ideal man now has changed.

So yeah, who are these friends and what type of travelling are they doing together? Friends she met at school?


----------



## DayDream

I think my husband is the same as your wife but just staying and not telling me because of our kid. It's a horrible and lonely feeling. I feel for you.


----------



## LeMont

Entropy3000 said:


> While she was away she went through withdrawal from you.
> 
> It is highly likely she had developed feelings for someone else. Sounds like she wants a more open marriage.


I really don't think so, we skyped or spoke on the Phone daily. Even if she did sleep with someone else, I don't believe it was serious. I have notorious received any vibes that made me believe anyone else was in the picture, but definitely a possibility. She denies that wholeheartedly. I think it is an issue of now that the kids are grown, she does not want to answer to anything or anyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LeMont

DayDream said:


> I think my husband is the same as your wife but just staying and not telling me because of our kid. It's a horrible and lonely feeling. I feel for you.


How are you dealing with it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## iheartlife

LeMont said:


> She denies that wholeheartedly. I think it is an issue of now that the kids are grown, she does not want to answer to anything or anyone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just so you know, if someone has been in an affair (or is currently in one), denying it "wholeheartedly" is meaningless.

My husband vehemently denied being in his emotional affair for many months. He was very distant and told me he had fallen out of love with me. I discovered his affair by accident, when he left a secret email account open on our home computer.

It is possible your wife means what she says. You can choose to believe her if you want to, just be fully aware that if she is lying, you aren't going to be able to detect it, no matter how well you think you know her.

There are ways to reawaken her love for you, if for some reason it's nothing more than growing apart. The books The 5 Love Languages, His Needs / Her Needs, and Love Busters will help you reach out to her and show her in very concrete terms, in ways that she will thoroughly appreciate, how much she means to you.

If you try these methods and they still don't work, you are most likely back to square one: that odds are she is saving her heart for someone else.


----------



## LeMont

Toffer said:


> Did anything happen while she was away for those six months?
> 
> I would be very suspicious
> 
> Does she keep her phone with her at all times? Is she deleting texts from it? Any other changes like new clothes, weight loss, unexplained absences?


Nothing like that at all, and trust me I looked. If something happened with another guy, I don't believe she kept feelings for him. I have no evidence and I have looked. While she was gone we skyped or talked on the phone daily.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## This is me

The vast majority of the time when someone declares that they love you but not in love with you anymore, there is someone else who helped them emotionally detach. Oh those NEW friends...any males in the group? There is also the possibility of a Mid Life Crisis. This can hit at any age, but primarily in the 40's.


----------



## LeMont

iheartlife said:


> Just so you know, if someone who been in an affair (or is currently in one), denying it "wholeheartedly" is meaningless.
> 
> My husband vehemently denied being in his emotional affair for many months. He was very distant and told me he had fallen out of love with me. I discovered his affair by accident, when he left a secret email account open on our home computer.
> 
> It is possible your wife means what she says. You can choose to believe her if you want to, just be fully aware that if she is lying, you aren't going to be able to detect it, no matter how well you think you know her.
> 
> There are ways to reawaken her love for you, if for some reason it's nothing more than growing apart. The books The 5 Love Languages, His Needs / Her Needs, and Love Busters will help you reach out to her and show her in very concrete terms, in ways that she will thoroughly appreciate, how much she means to you.
> 
> If you try these methods and they still don't work, you are most likely back to square one: that odds are she is saving her heart for someone else.


Thanks for your candor, but I will not act as if she has cheated and I have no evidence. I have looked at FB and emails, she often leaves her phone around she tells me where she is going and I have confirmed it at times. I still know it is possible, but I think it is not likely. Can there be other reasons to fall out of love? And thanks for the titles.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## A Bit Much

> After her declaration, she seems to be trying, we are going to MC for about a month


This is a positive step. At least she IS trying. Keep up the MC, work on this together.

I really think her declaration is more like what NeedTLC went through. MC will help her deal with those feelings and help you to understand what's going on. Stay positive... as long as she's trying there is hope.


----------



## Entropy3000

So who are these new friends and what activities does she do with them? Travels where and why? 

Why would she not be travelling with you?

I mean seriously, you were nice enough to be cool with her being away for six months.

You have no children with her. Did you help support her children?

Your reward for being so understanding is that she no longer is in love with you.

If she was long distance from you six months how did she spend her spare time? Who was she with?


----------



## iheartlife

LeMont said:


> Thanks for your candor, but I will not act as if she has cheated and I have no evidence. I have looked at FB and emails, she often leaves her phone around she tells me where she is going and I have confirmed it at times. I still know it is possible, but I think it is not likely. Can there be other reasons to fall out of love? And thanks for the titles.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please explain to me what you define as, "act as if she's cheated." Just rephrase what you mean by those words using different ones, it will help me understand what you are trying to say.

As far at the titles--5 Love Languages has a free questionnaire on the book's website--have her take the quiz tonight. It will give you a jumpstart on MC.

The other two books also have free questionnaires on the marriage builders website, but they are much longer. If you can get her to take them (Her Needs and Love Busters) you will make a lot of progress.

(again, all bets are off if there is a third party involved).


----------



## iheartlife

Entropy3000 said:


> So who are these new friends and what activities does she do with them. Travels where and why?
> 
> Why would she not be travelling with you?
> 
> I mean seriously, you were nice enough to be cool with her being away for six months.
> 
> You're reward for being so understanding is that she no longer is in love with you.
> 
> If she was long distance from you six months how did she spend her spare time? Who was she with?


Just bringing this forward so you see it, too.


----------



## Lon

I agree with others, almost certainly there is an OM. But even if there isnt an OM she is checking out of the marriage - she is going through the motions of pretending to care about it, staying there, going to MC in order to preserve whatever benefits she gets from it (things like have a free nanny for her kids and takes care of all the domestic duties and financial responsibilities while she pursues her happiness alone as she likes).

The cruelest part of it is when a WW checks out of the marriage and loses the attraction to you, anything kind and generous you do only makes you look weaker and more pathetic in her eyes, when you allow yourself to be used, or she perceives at some level that she is getting away with using you, you've lost her respect.

The catch is that the only way you gain respect back is by willing to lose her and the only way she will actually believe that is when you let her go. I for one would show her that being married to you and taking care of her responsibilities isn't tying her down, what is tying her down is her own perception of marriage and committment, what life looks like if she were to act as a responsible wife and mother. If she wants to be in the marriage then she has an obligation to do her share of the lifting, if she is not willing to do her part and prefers to be let loose give her what she wants and she can do her own lifting.


----------



## LeMont

This is me said:


> The vast majority of the time when someone declares that they love you but not in love with you anymore, there is someone else who helped them emotionally detach. Oh those NEW friends...any males in the group? There is also the possibility of a Mid Life Crisis. This can hit at any age, but primarily in the 40's.


We are in our 40's... And no males in the group. I know it seems like I'm in denial, but I looked and am still looking and have not found a thing. I am actually pretty good finding stuff, lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LeMont

iheartlife said:


> Just bringing this forward so you see it, too.


She went as an intern from school. A classmate of hers (who is single) she was only a little close to went with her. Now they hang all of the time. I agree with what you said about me coming off as weak. I am trying to stop that and prepare to take you suggestion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LeMont

iheartlife said:


> Just bringing this forward so you see it, too.


If I confirm or even have strong evidence that there is a third party involved in will not remain in the marriage. I would immediately proceed with a divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LeMont

Entropy3000 said:


> So who are these new friends and what activities does she do with them? Travels where and why?
> 
> Why would she not be travelling with you?
> 
> I mean seriously, you were nice enough to be cool with her being away for six months.
> 
> You have no children with her. Did you help support her children?
> 
> Your reward for being so understanding is that she no longer is in love with you.
> 
> If she was long distance from you six months how did she spend her spare time? Who was she with?


The new friends are connected to the classmate that went abroad with her. They are female. They go out to eat, shop and look at architecture. They travel to yearly conferences and went to Chicago one weekend. We still have vacationed but it did not seem fulfilling or fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## greens07

It is possible for a woman to develop friends and interests of her own without doing anything wrong in the process. Life can become very routine and boring for a woman when all of her focus is on her family with very little time for herself. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can imagine it would feel very exhilarating for a woman to only have to think about herself for a little while. 

In spite of the fact that it didn't work out for me (there are other problems that led to that though), you guys should plan a romantic getaway together. My husband and I had some of the best talks of our relationship planning that trip. Find a little spa and get a couple's massage. Relax on a beach somewhere and get to know each other again. Find out why you fell in love in the first place. Plan date nights. Bring her flowers. Romance her. Not just once, but on a regular basis. She'll either fall in love with you all over again or she'll do the right thing and let you go. Either way at least you'll know and you'll also know you did everything you could.


----------



## COguy

greens07 said:


> It is possible for a woman to develop friends and interests of her own without doing anything wrong in the process. Life can become very routine and boring for a woman when all of her focus is on her family with very little time for herself. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can imagine it would feel very exhilarating for a woman to only have to think about herself for a little while.


That's all fine and dandy, the thing is, women don't realize they have "fallen out of love" unless they have found someone else to "fall in love" with. Like, you didn't realize how blurry your vision was until you got LASIK and now everything is all crisp and clear.

There's a reason almost every single cheater story starts with the ILYBNILWY speech.

The hardest part is convincing the guy that it's all too common and that they are in denial. Before you go through it, you think there's no way your wife is someone who would cheat. You don't think that your wife would go to a hotel with another dude when she's supposed to be at girl's night. Or that she would buy a prepaid phone to hide her texts or calls. Or that she would ditch work to go on a screw fest. Or that she would turn lesbian and be interested in her best friend that she swore she was "not into like that."

And yet, the forum is filled with stories like that.

In fact, I'd like for someone to come back and share with me a story about a woman who started spending all this time away from home, gave the ILYBNILWY speech, but WASN'T cheating.

The speech proceeds a desire to create space, or get out on your own. If she just wants to hang out with her friend, she can't do that married? Why does she want independence so bad if she's not interested in someone else?

She may not have even cheated yet, but she is out there with her friend and she is at the least, excited by something when she is out that she can't do without feeling guilty while married.

My guess is they are hitting the bars together and flirting with guys, or that she is having feelings for her female friend, or that she is smart and took an affair underground (prepaid phone, secret email, etc.).

She went on an overnight trip, anything could've happened. Spend $40 and put a VAR in her car, that will really tell you what's going on. Or get a babysitter and tail her a couple nights and see where she's going and what she's doing.


----------



## DayDream

LeMont said:


> How are you dealing with it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What choice do I have? I ache constantly. Cry in the shower and in bed at night. (I sleep alone.) I try to psych myself into not feeling anything for him anymore and look to the future to a life without him. I try to gather enough courage to end it but never do. I envision a life with somebody (somebody else) who is into me and will be kind and considerate to me. I focus on raising our son.


----------



## greens07

COguy said:


> In fact, I'd like for someone to come back and share with me a story about a woman who started spending all this time away from home, gave the ILYBNILWY speech, but WASN'T cheating.


I'm not saying there aren't cases of cheating too. I just think it can be either way. When someone cheats, it's because they're missing something and when they can't find that something with their partner, they look for it elsewhere. The problem is just deeper than her cheating or potentially cheating.


----------



## iheartlife

COguy said:


> The speech proceeds a desire to create space, or get out on your own. If she just wants to hang out with her friend, she can't do that married? Why does she want independence so bad if she's not interested in someone else?


Hit the nail on the head, COguy.

I knew this is what was bothering me.

-----------------------

You supported her as she finished her degree.

You supported her as she travelled for 6 mos.

You've been supportive as she's made lots of new friends, people with whom she evidently spends plenty of time.

Wow, that sounds like a LOT of independence to me.

And she's married with all that independence.

So what does she want independence from--and what for? What MORE independence is she seeking?


----------



## DayDream

Sounds a lot like my husband with his new job where he travels a lot and has met all kinds of new people and has this whole separate life. He's become somebody at work so this life with me is no longer good enough. I'm too "blue collar". I don't want to "rise with him".


----------



## greens07

iheartlife said:


> Hit the nail on the head, COguy.
> 
> I knew this is what was bothering me.
> 
> -----------------------
> 
> You supported her as she finished her degree.
> 
> You supported her as she travelled for 6 mos.
> 
> You've been supportive as she's made lots of new friends, people with whom she evidently spends plenty of time.
> 
> Wow, that sounds like a LOT of independence to me.
> 
> And she's married with all that independence.
> 
> So what does she want independence from--and what for? What MORE independence is she seeking?


I see it more as trying to figure out who you are as an individual. You know who you are as wife and who you are as mom, but who are you as just you. It's not that it can't be done married, it's more that it gets seen as a threat and misunderstood which causes problems. I think I read somewhere that they had skype calls or chats of some sort everyday? That shows that she does want to include him, just on her own terms. She should have her own interests anyway. It gives them things to talk about when they are together and will help make their time more quality instead of the routine "how was your day...fine how was yours".


----------



## iheartlife

greens07 said:


> I see it more as trying to figure out who you are as an individual. You know who you are as wife and who you are as mom, but who are you as just you. It's not that it can't be done married, it's more that it gets seen as a threat and misunderstood which causes problems. I think I read somewhere that they had skype calls or chats of some sort everyday? That shows that she does want to include him, just on her own terms. She should have her own interests anyway. It gives them things to talk about when they are together and will help make their time more quality instead of the routine "how was your day...fine how was yours".


Well, in my book, a healthy marriage should include 10 to 15 quality alone hours per week. I realize that some people have jobs (such as the military) where this is physically impossible. But I don't see that here. If you spend lots of time apart, you grow apart, you don't grow together. 

I have tons of interests and my husband has his own, and we don't share very many. But that just makes it way more interesting when we spend our quality time together daily, we have lots to share and talk about. Our separateness enhances our togetherness.

She is telling him she isn't in love with him any more. That's enough to make any spouse break down and cry on the spot. This is far more serious than 'she needs her space.' She got her space, and it took her away from him, and now she wants even more.


----------



## Entropy3000

greens07 said:


> I see it more as trying to figure out who you are as an individual. You know who you are as wife and who you are as mom, but who are you as just you. It's not that it can't be done married, it's more that it gets seen as a threat and misunderstood which causes problems. I think I read somewhere that they had skype calls or chats of some sort everyday? That shows that she does want to include him, just on her own terms. She should have her own interests anyway. It gives them things to talk about when they are together and will help make their time more quality instead of the routine "how was your day...fine how was yours".


Ummm. She does not love him any more. She was gone for six months and hangs out now with her friends she made while apart. 

I understand that in your own case you only see your hubby very occasionally. I am actually very sorry that you have to go through that. Imagine if in your circumstance your husband were to tell you he no longer loves you and when he was home he hung out with other people and not you. Because this is what is going on here. To simply say he needed to do his own thing is pretty harsh. That is not a marriage.


----------



## Machiavelli

It could be that there is no affair...yet. If not, there soon will be. Nature abhors a vacuum.

My advice to the OP is to read Married Man Sex Life, as linked to above.

May I ask you why you don't have any biological kids of your own?


----------



## Kathrynthegreat

COguy said:


> That's all fine and dandy, the thing is, women don't realize they have "fallen out of love" unless they have found someone else to "fall in love" with.


I did. :scratchhead:
I need a man right now like I need to stick my head in a drill press. 
Sometimes you just realize getting married was a mistake.


----------



## Davi

After a long time relationship, it happens normally. Try to do some different things that you never did in the past life..


----------



## DTO

LeMont,

Okay, so you guys are in your 40s, which means you got married somewhere from your late 20s to early 30s. Presumably you guys dated for a while before getting married - starting in your mid 20's, say (or maybe even younger). And, if her kids are out of the home, they are likely not teenagers.

Even if she is not cheating, let's paint the picture this way:

* You guys were childhood friends but did not get together.
* She marries, has two kids, and then gets divorced at a fairly young age. Sounds like the kids' father is not terribly involved.
* She has two kids but no career, freedom, or family life. BTW women have told me it's hard to date someone your age in this situation.
* Now you find each other again. Before she did not see you in a romantic way but now you're looking a whole lot better. You can do lots for her, not having any kids of your own.
* Fast forward to present and you've met the need. She has her degree (plenty of money) and her children are independent.

Ironically, your support of her was what provided the resources for her to be able to prosper as a single person. If she had stayed single, she'd likely be still single and looking for someone to make life easier for her.


----------



## LeMont

DTO said:


> LeMont,
> 
> Okay, so you guys are in your 40s, which means you got married somewhere from your late 20s to early 30s. Presumably you guys dated for a while before getting married - starting in your mid 20's, say (or maybe even younger). And, if her kids are out of the home, they are likely not teenagers.
> 
> Even if she is not cheating, let's paint the picture this way:
> 
> * You guys were childhood friends but did not get together.
> * She marries, has two kids, and then gets divorced at a fairly young age. Sounds like the kids' father is not terribly involved.
> * She has two kids but no career, freedom, or family life. BTW women have told me it's hard to date someone your age in this situation.
> * Now you find each other again. Before she did not see you in a romantic way but now you're looking a whole lot better. You can do lots for her, not having any kids of your own.
> * Fast forward to present and you've met the need. She has her degree (plenty of money) and her children are independent.
> 
> Ironically, your support of her was what provided the resources for her to be able to prosper as a single person. If she had stayed single, she'd likely be still single and looking for someone to make life easier for her.


I completely acknowledge the possible reasons for my wife saying she has fallen out of love. My question is how long do I wait for a change? She is trying, we do and have always spent time together, it's just that I can tell she would rather be elsewhere when we are together. If I plan something in advance she will honor our date but her impromptu plans are with her girlfriends. Prior to going to school she did not have girlfriends. So what do I do, besides wait and 180?l
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## deejov

Sorry you are here.
Waiting and doing the 180 or MMSL doesn't fit together.

If you are working on yourself...... you aren't sitting around waiting for her to make up her mind.

Much better things you can do with your time. Read the books, spend time with your friends, hit the gym, find a new hobby, concentrate on what you want to do with your life.

Are you still sleeping together?


----------



## MrK

This is a flippin' epidemic. Why aren't we (society, this forum) handling it as such?


----------



## deejov

MrK said:


> This is a flippin' epidemic. Why aren't we (society, this forum) handling it as such?


Because people don't have the skills.. they come here, and they learn them. Most people don't even realise what the problem is, and have never even heard of "needs", don't realise that it's just more than sex that is needed in a marriage.

Many posters do realise it's an epidemic, and I've read that a lot give books for wedding gifts.


----------



## LeMont

deejov said:


> Sorry you are here.
> Waiting and doing the 180 or MMSL doesn't fit together.
> 
> If you are working on yourself...... you aren't sitting around waiting for her to make up her mind.
> 
> Much better things you can do with your time. Read the books, spend time with your friends, hit the gym, find a new hobby, concentrate on what you want to do with your life.
> 
> Are you still sleeping together?


We share a bed with separate covers, Smh. We have sex about twice a month.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## COguy

MrK said:


> This is a flippin' epidemic. Why aren't we (society, this forum) handling it as such?


Because people live in denial until they get their relational sh*t handed to them on a platter. Everyone hears the statistic about how 50% of spouses cheat, that doesn't mean anything until you become a victim of the 50%.

By the time people get educated on it, it's too late.

Also, I think this is a relatively new trend in family lives, spurned by women's lib movements, more dual-working families, and technology making it easier to facilitate.

In 1950, You had women staying at home all day, phones were in the middle of the house, if you wanted to call a man the operator new about it, and everyone in the town knew who you were and what you were doing.

Contrast that to 2012, where you can get a prepaid phone for $50, have the convenience of work to hide activities, live in a town where no one knows who you are, and meet new hookups over the internet without leaving your house.

What we need is man school. We need guys, like the ones on this forum, to go around and tell people about what's going on so they can spot the warning signs BEFORE it's too late.

Unfortunately, those of us who have been cheated on are reluctant to tell the whole world about our relationships.


----------



## A Bit Much

LeMont said:


> I completely acknowledge the possible reasons for my wife saying she has fallen out of love. My question is how long do I wait for a change? She is trying, we do and have always spent time together, it's just that I can tell she would rather be elsewhere when we are together. If I plan something in advance she will honor our date but her impromptu plans are with her girlfriends. Prior to going to school she did not have girlfriends. So what do I do, besides wait and 180?l
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not sure anyone can tell you how long to wait. That's a personal decision. You wait as long as you think you should. This is your life, you handle it as you see fit.

Keep up the MC. It'll be good for both of you... either to promote closeness again, or the opposite will happen. You'll have gained tools that will help you to seperate civilly.

IMO I don't think she's cheating. I honestly think she's someone that just doesn't want to be married anymore. It does happen, and there doesn't necessarily have to be someone else waiting.

I'll tell you something... I'm 42 and married with grown children, and I love my husband dearly, but I wouldn't marry again. I would relish the freedom of it. I'd spend time with friends, my kids, and travel.


----------



## iheartlife

A Bit Much said:


> I'll tell you something... I'm 42 and married with grown children, and I love my husband dearly, but I wouldn't marry again. I would relish the freedom of it. I'd spend time with friends, my kids, and travel.


And I'm 45 and I love to travel too.

This is the thing. I already said it before. She has lots and lots and lots of freedom. He Already Gave It To Her.

She wants "more." What is more? Dating other people? That is the only thing I can pinpoint.

LeMont--what does she mean by more? Does she want to move out and find her own place? Does she want to come and go whenever she likes, i.e., have dinner plans and other fun activities with her (likely all single / divorced) friends that she never has to inform you about? What is it precisely that she is gaining from "freedom" that she doesn't ALREADY have in the very relaxed and carefree marriage she is in now.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

MrK said:


> This is a flippin' epidemic. Why aren't we (society, this forum) handling it as such?


Because society is benefited economically by this


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

COguy said:


> In fact, I'd like for someone to come back and share with me a story about a woman who started spending all this time away from home, gave the ILYBNILWY speech, but WASN'T cheating.


Cheating yes, but not in the traditional sense. The subject here is the desire or lack of desire to experience emotional intimacy with one's spouse.

Cheating or infidelity occurs when a partner breaks from their spouse and pursues and obtains emotional intimacy from an outsider. With men, this is almost always another woman, but with women it can be a friend or family. What is always present is the break, usually blamed on the spouse (they didn't do enough for me).


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

COguy said:


> Also, I think this is a relatively new trend in family lives, spurned by women's lib movements, more dual-working families, and technology making it easier to facilitate.


Add to this having children later in life


----------



## iheartlife

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Cheating yes, but not in the traditional sense. The subject here is the desire or lack of desire to experience emotional intimacy with one's spouse.
> 
> Cheating or infidelity occurs when a partner breaks from their spouse and pursues and obtains emotional intimacy from an outsider. With men, this is almost always another woman, but with women it can be a friend or family. What is always present is the break, usually blamed on the spouse (they didn't do enough for me).


Maybe. I've said it so often now, I don't think I can paraphrase myself yet again but I will try.

She wants more freedom than she has already been generously granted. I mean she has Freedom with a capital F. There are very few married people with the type of Freedom that she has and has fully experienced for quite a long time.

But she's not satisifed with that. No--she wants More. What could possibly be "More" than that? There's only one thing left she doesn't have--the Freedom to Pursue Members of the Opposite Sex.


----------



## Entropy3000

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Cheating yes, but not in the traditional sense. The subject here is the desire or lack of desire to experience emotional intimacy with one's spouse.
> 
> *Cheating or infidelity occurs when a partner breaks from their spouse and pursues and obtains emotional intimacy from an outsider.* With men, this is almost always another woman, but with women it can be a friend or family. What is always present is the break, usually blamed on the spouse (they didn't do enough for me).


This is spot on. She is unfaithful to her marriage by this definition and I totally agree. 

There may or may not be another man in the scenario. It would not be a shock if one was added at some point. But yes she is looking to be single. Possibly some cake eating.


----------



## A Bit Much

iheartlife said:


> And I'm 45 and I love to travel too.
> 
> This is the thing. I already said it before. She has lots and lots and lots of freedom. He Already Gave It To Her.
> 
> She wants "more." What is more? Dating other people? That is the only thing I can pinpoint.
> 
> LeMont--what does she mean by more? Does she want to move out and find her own place? Does she want to come and go whenever she likes, i.e., have dinner plans and other fun activities with her (likely all single / divorced) friends that she never has to inform you about? What is it precisely that she is gaining from "freedom" that she doesn't ALREADY have in the very relaxed and carefree marriage she is in now.


Being FREE to me doesn't include hooking up with anyone else. I'm over it. I've shared my life with a man my entire adult life. I don't need that to be fulfilled. To be in a position to only think of myself? Bliss. Selfish? Sure. Wrong? I don't think so. Not when I know what I've given to my family.

I can't speak for her, but maybe she's feeling the same. The OP has checked and has found nothing, no proof of infidelity. Until he does? I will agree to disagree that another man or the pursuit of is what his wife wants.


----------



## iheartlife

A Bit Much said:


> Being FREE to me doesn't include hooking up with anyone else. I'm over it. I've shared my life with a man my entire adult life. I don't need that to be fulfilled. To be in a position to only think of myself? Bliss. Selfish? Sure. Wrong? I don't think so. Not when I know what I've given to my family.


That may be because you've been the giver.

From his description, I see only a taker.

Someone who had children before the marriage, and was lucky (supremely lucky!) to find a stepfather for them to raise them and fully fund them and her

Someone who funded her education and helped her finish her degree and supported here through that although she probably didn't have much time for him

Someone who wanted to travel for 6 mos., and so she was able to do that too thanks to his generous donation of time and money

I really don't see where she's entitled to the "bliss" that you describe--she already has it, but it's still not enough!


----------



## Entropy3000

iheartlife said:


> Maybe. I've said it so often now, I don't think I can paraphrase myself yet again but I will try.
> 
> She wants more freedom than she has already been generously granted. I mean she has Freedom with a capital F. There are very few married people with the type of Freedom that she has and has fully experienced for quite a long time.
> 
> But she's not satisifed with that. No--she wants More. What could possibly be "More" than that? There's only one thing left she doesn't have--the Freedom to Pursue Members of the Opposite Sex.


Who knows maybe she is into women now. 

I think you are correct but she plain does not want to answer for her activity at all. She wants to be single. 

It is unclear whether her immediate motivation is to start dating other men and possibly trading up or just enjoying the freedom to have many men. 

I think it is worth having her be honest about what more freedom means. It is however easier for her to be vague about it. If her friends are single or divorced then this is the life style she seeks.

Water under the bridge but what exactly was her lifestyle when she was away? Was she hooking up? The OP does not seem to be concerned about that as long as there was no emotional connection. So she may well have been hooking up or not. He would have no way of validating this. He was isolated from her.


----------



## A Bit Much

iheartlife said:


> That may be because you've been the giver.
> 
> From his description, I see only a taker.
> 
> Someone who had children before the marriage, and was lucky (supremely lucky!) to find a stepfather for them to raise them and fully fund them and her
> 
> Someone who funded her education and helped her finish her degree and supported here through that although she probably didn't have much time for him
> 
> Someone who wanted to travel for 6 mos., and so she was able to do that too thanks to his generous donation of time and money
> 
> I really don't see where she's entitled to the "bliss" that you describe--she already has it, but it's still not enough!


Well I won't argue that... she has had it good from what it sounds like.

Maybe she IS a taker and by nature has always been a very selfish person. The 6 months away gave her the opportunity to truly be herself. She may be tired of pretending she's NOT that person. 

LeMont I truly hope you get some answers. I feel awful, as you've given her so much, and she wants more from you still.


----------



## LeMont

A Bit Much said:


> I'm not sure anyone can tell you how long to wait. That's a personal decision. You wait as long as you think you should. This is your life, you handle it as you see fit.
> 
> Keep up the MC. It'll be good for both of you... either to promote closeness again, or the opposite will happen. You'll have gained tools that will help you to seperate civilly.
> 
> IMO I don't think she's cheating. I honestly think she's someone that just doesn't want to be married anymore. It does happen, and there doesn't necessarily have to be someone else waiting.
> 
> I'll tell you something... I'm 42 and married with grown children, and I love my husband dearly, but I wouldn't marry again. I would relish the freedom of it. I'd spend time with friends, my kids, and travel.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

iheartlife said:


> That may be because you've been the giver.
> 
> From his description, I see only a taker.
> 
> Someone who had children before the marriage, and was lucky (supremely lucky!) to find a stepfather for them to raise them and fully fund them and her
> 
> Someone who funded her education and helped her finish her degree and supported here through that although she probably didn't have much time for him
> 
> Someone who wanted to travel for 6 mos., and so she was able to do that too thanks to his generous donation of time and money
> 
> I really don't see where she's entitled to the "bliss" that you describe--she already has it, but it's still not enough!


Essentially she has used him up. Instead of him enjoying these coming years with greater intimacy with the kids grown and assuming a better income now, she is ready to move on from him. He was extremely unselfish to be ok with her leaving him to pursue her dreams. So he now is being asked to be unelfish and just let her go. Thanks for the memories.

I see some history re-writing coming to help her justify the break to herself.


----------



## LeMont

Thanks, so what keeps you in the marriage if that's how you feel? Why despite you not wanting to be attached you still love your husband?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

LeMont you can love someone and not be in love with them. The brain chemicals are supportive of each other but different. Look up oxytocin and dopamine. 

See --> www.marriedmansexlife.com


----------



## A Bit Much

LeMont said:


> Thanks, so what keeps you in the marriage if that's how you feel? Why despite you not wanting to be attached you still love your husband?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, I'm in love with my husband. We're extremely close friends as well as husband and wife. He understands me, and I understand him. We fill each others cup.

Love fades when these things are missing. We try every day to NOT let that happen. We both are givers. We've both been married before, and he's also helped me raise my two children, with none of his own. He's a very special person and I appreciate him for who is and what he adds to my life.

When I say I could live alone... I can say that because I'm a whole person without my husband. He adds to my happiness, he's not the source of it. He and I have talked about this... he feels the same way. He's a whole person without me as well. He loves me to the moon and back, but if I left him he would go on. So would I. And not to be with other people... we like ourselves enough to be fine on our own. We don't need a man or woman in our lives to feel complete.

I don't know if any of this helps you. The major component missing from your relationship with your wife is the 'in love' part. Somewhere somehow that was lost between you.


----------



## LeMont

A Bit Much said:


> Well, I'm in love with my husband. We're extremely close friends as well as husband and wife. He understands me, and I understand him. We fill each others cup.
> 
> Love fades when these things are missing. We try every day to NOT let that happen. We both are givers. We've both been married before, and he's also helped me raise my two children, with none of his own. He's a very special person and I appreciate him for who is and what he adds to my life.
> 
> When I say I could live alone... I can say that because I'm a whole person without my husband. He adds to my happiness, he's not the source of it. He and I have talked about this... he feels the same way. He's a whole person without me as well. He loves me to the moon and back, but if I left him he would go on. So would I. And not to be with other people... we like ourselves enough to be fine on our own. We don't need a man or woman in our lives to feel complete.
> 
> I don't know if any of this helps you. The major component missing from your relationship with your wife is the 'in love' part. Somewhere somehow that was lost between you.


Thanks, I think the main difference in my situation is that I am not at a point where I would be happy alone. So much of my life is intertwined with hers such that I do not have a life completely without her. This forum is helping in some aspects, however the fact that most believe she must be cheating to fall out of love I am not sure is true. I am not being naive, cheating makes sense, I get that but am not convinced that she is. As long as that's true, I think I can be patient but at the same time I plan to work on me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## A Bit Much

LeMont said:


> Thanks, I think the main difference in my situation is that I am not at a point where I would be happy alone. So much of my life is intertwined with hers such that I do not have a life completely without her. This forum is helping in some aspects, however the fact that most believe she must be cheating to fall out of love I am not sure is true. I am not being naive, cheating makes sense, I get that but am not convinced that she is. As long as that's true, I think I can be patient but at the same time* I plan to work on me*.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is the best plan of action. In essence, it would seem that this is exactly what SHE'S done up to this point. You're feeling the effects of her finding herself. 

I'll tell you something. My husbands independance of me is extremely attractive. It encourages me to chase, be curious of what he's up to, what he's thinking. I can say he most likely feels that way about me. We're not so predictable to one another. Too much of that is boring. It's like we're dating, but we're married. It sounds crazy but it works very well for us.


----------



## COguy

A Bit Much said:


> Being FREE to me doesn't include hooking up with anyone else. I'm over it. I've shared my life with a man my entire adult life. I don't need that to be fulfilled. To be in a position to only think of myself? Bliss. Selfish? Sure. Wrong? I don't think so. Not when I know what I've given to my family.
> 
> I can't speak for her, but maybe she's feeling the same. The OP has checked and has found nothing, no proof of infidelity. Until he does? I will agree to disagree that another man or the pursuit of is what his wife wants.


I get what you're saying, the difference is, you wouldn't give the ILYBNILWY speech. Even someone wanting the freedom you're talking about without being interested wouldn't say that. They'd say something like, "I'm tired of being stuck here, I want to go live in the city." or "I want to be an actor in Hollywood and I'm going to go do that."

ILYBNILWY is a specific reaction that is not about actions or activities, it is a specific state of mind that says, "I am interested in an activity that is not compatible with being married and my current perception of what being married entails. I must break this commitment to find myself acceptable."

Unacceptable activities are pretty much limited to boning other people, or intimate moments with other people.

Name an other activity that could not be pursued while married, if you honestly cared more about the activity than your spouse? Running away? New career? School? Being a stripper? Wanting to travel around the world?

All of that stuff can be done while married and your husband sits at home. It only becomes a problem when you want to do that stuff romantically with someone besides your spouse.


----------



## A Bit Much

I think the ILYBNILWY speech is the equivalent to the 'It's not you it's me'. Think Seinfeld.

Just tell the fricken truth. That's not it. And it cheapens the entire relationship and what previously has been invested.

ETA: Life isn't a soap opera or romance novel. That's where the ILYBNILWY comes from. Fantasy.


----------



## COguy

LeMont said:


> Thanks, I think the main difference in my situation is that I am not at a point where I would be happy alone. So much of my life is intertwined with hers such that I do not have a life completely without her. This forum is helping in some aspects, however the fact that most believe she must be cheating to fall out of love I am not sure is true. I am not being naive, cheating makes sense, I get that but am not convinced that she is. As long as that's true, I think I can be patient but at the same time I plan to work on me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


First off, yes you are being naive. You have a forum of people who have experienced exactly what you're going through telling you your wife is interested in someone else, admit that it makes sense, but you're not convinced.

Don't dwell on that, your action if she is or isn't cheating should be the same: Get your own damn life!

Stop worrying about your wife. Stop doing things for her. Stop wasting your energy on her.

The fact that you can't see yourself alone shows that you don't have the strength or self-respect to leave her even if she was cheating. That kind of attitude, especially to someone in the position of your wife who is finding more and more strength and probably talking to guys who are appearing strong, is incredibly unattractive. It makes you come off as a loser chump.

As you start to learn more about infidelity (which hopefully you start to read about), you'll see that the best way to react to situations like this is the opposite of what your natural inclination is.

The natural inclination (and what almost every guy, including me, is guilty of when they go through this), is to smother her. You become the world's best husband. Clingy, emotional, all your focus goes on the wife.

That's the exact opposite way you want to handle the situation. You want to encourage your wife to leave you, sign the papers for her. Let her know you're moving on. You're going places with or without her, it's up to her if she wants to hop on board. 

This makes you appear confident, attractive, strong, she begins to question why she's leaving.

Read this thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/38920-women-s-infidelity-book.html

Make sure you read this post specifically:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/38920-women-s-infidelity-book.html#post565715


----------



## LeMont

COguy said:


> I get what you're saying, the difference is, you wouldn't give the ILYBNILWY speech. Even someone wanting the freedom you're talking about without being interested wouldn't say that. They'd say something like, "I'm tired of being stuck here, I want to go live in the city." or "I want to be an actor in Hollywood and I'm going to go do that."
> 
> ILYBNILWY is a specific reaction that is not about actions or activities, it is a specific state of mind that says, "I am interested in an activity that is not compatible with being married and my current perception of what being married entails. I must break this commitment to find myself acceptable."
> 
> Unacceptable activities are pretty much limited to boning other people, or intimate moments with other people.
> 
> Name an other activity that could not be pursued while married, if you honestly cared more about the activity than your spouse? Running away? New career? School? Being a stripper? Wanting to travel around the world?
> 
> All of that stuff can be done while married and your husband sits at home. It only becomes a problem when you want to do that stuff romantically with someone besides your spouse.


I see what you mean, to us in our marriage it is also unacceptable to go hanging multiple times per week. Before now, she would have had a problem me going out as much and staying out late.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

COguy said:


> That's the exact opposite way you want to handle the situation. You want to encourage your wife to leave you, sign the papers for her. Let her know you're moving on. You're going places with or without her, it's up to her if she wants to hop on board.


Whether or not there is another man, you and your wife both took a vow to love each other till death do us part when you got married. A situation where one person keeps their promise and the other doesn't is not sustainable in the long term.

Not being clingy or smothering does not mean not being loving. You can be loving without being clingy even if your love is not returned. Making yourself a better person, physically and emotionally is a loving endeavor.

I'm not saying kick her out, I'm saying that she needs to decide whether to keep her vow or leave. You can't make her love you. You can do your best to shore up your side of things and try to overcome your side of the problem but ultimately it's her decision. If she wants to walk, don't stand in her way


----------



## COguy

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Whether or not there is another man, you and your wife both took a vow to love each other till death do us part when you got married. A situation where one person keeps their promise and the other doesn't is not sustainable in the long term.
> 
> Not being clingy or smothering does not mean not being loving. You can be loving without being clingy even if your love is not returned. Making yourself a better person, physically and emotionally is a loving endeavor.
> 
> I'm not saying kick her out, I'm saying that she needs to decide whether to keep her vow or leave. You can't make her love you. You can do your best to shore up your side of things and try to overcome your side of the problem but ultimately it's her decision. If she wants to walk, don't stand in her way


Sorry I was in a rush to post. Yes, you need to do all this WHILE acting in a loving, respectful manner. Cool, calm, aloofness is what you are going for.


----------



## COguy

LeMont said:


> I see what you mean, to us in our marriage it is also unacceptable to go hanging multiple times per week. Before now, she would have had a problem me going out as much and staying out late.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Join the club of husbands who learned about about healthy boundaries the hard way. Too late now while she's in walkaway wife mode, you'll have to wait until she decides she wants to work on the marriage (which is always an if).

Harder said than done when you are living in fear of your wife leaving you, but you need to get to the point where you are comfortable enough to voice when you are uncomfortable with something, and have the strength to follow through if she disrespects you.

For now, make sure that you are doing your fair share of going out and staying late. I know you may not WANT to get out, but make sure that at least 50% of the time, when she comes home you are not there. Even if you just go out alone and do some bullcrap activity. I started painting and going to movies myself. Go-karting, hanging out with guy friends (you need guy friends!!), shooting guns, exercising!

Do not be the loyal puppy who cries when she leaves, lays at the door mat, and then wags his pathetic tail as soon as she comes home.

What would you do if you were living on your own? That's what you need to start doing now. Start getting back your manhood. When you first started dating, you weren't a whipped, fearful chump. You had your own life, you were funny, you were strong. If she acted like a b*tch, you would have left her. Now she's treating you like crap and you're accepting it. You've lost your balls. You need to find them again.

Until you do, she's going to walk all over you. She's going to find you unattractive. She's going to be wishy washy on what she wants to do "I need more space" "I feel trapped" "I don't know what I want". She's going to be more and more interested in other guys, guys that have the characteristics that you have slowly given up over the years. The more you pine over her and act like you can't live without her, the more she is going to want to leave.

Best advice you'll ever see on this forum: "If you want to save your marriage, you have to be willing to walk away from it."


----------



## Tall Average Guy

COguy said:


> Join the club of husbands who learned about about healthy boundaries the hard way. Too late now while she's in walkaway wife mode, you'll have to wait until she decides she wants to work on the marriage (which is always an if).
> 
> Harder said than done when you are living in fear of your wife leaving you, but you need to get to the point where you are comfortable enough to voice when you are uncomfortable with something, and have the strength to follow through if she disrespects you.
> 
> For now, make sure that you are doing your fair share of going out and staying late. I know you may not WANT to get out, but make sure that at least 50% of the time, when she comes home you are not there. Even if you just go out alone and do some bullcrap activity. I started painting and going to movies myself. Go-karting, hanging out with guy friends (you need guy friends!!), shooting guns, exercising!
> 
> Do not be the loyal puppy who cries when she leaves, lays at the door mat, and then wags his pathetic tail as soon as she comes home.
> 
> What would you do if you were living on your own? That's what you need to start doing now. Start getting back your manhood. When you first started dating, you weren't a whipped, fearful chump. You had your own life, you were funny, you were strong. If she acted like a b*tch, you would have left her. Now she's treating you like crap and you're accepting it. You've lost your balls. You need to find them again.
> 
> Until you do, she's going to walk all over you. She's going to find you unattractive. She's going to be wishy washy on what she wants to do "I need more space" "I feel trapped" "I don't know what I want". She's going to be more and more interested in other guys, guys that have the characteristics that you have slowly given up over the years. The more you pine over her and act like you can't live without her, the more she is going to want to leave.
> 
> Best advice you'll ever see on this forum: "If you want to save your marriage, you have to be willing to walk away from it."


Let me add a couple of other "less nice" things to the great advice above:

1. Stop doing things for her. She is not interested in meeting your needs, so pull back on what you are doing for her. Take that extra time and work on yourself (Check out No More Mr. Nice Guy and Married Man's Sex Life to get started). If she asks, be crystal clear as to why: "Since you are not interested in meeting my needs, I need to focus on myself more. That leaves me less time for other things."

2. Stand up for yourself around her. You note earlier that while she will show up for dates with you, it is clear that she does not want to be there. Next time you get that vibe, cut it short. Tell her it is clear she is not interested in being there, so you don't want to waste your time, but will be happy to get together the next time she is really interested. Then drop her off at home and go do something else. You don't have to be harsh, but you deserve to have her full attention. Use the third date rule - if she acted that way on the second date, would there have been a third? If not, the behavior is unacceptable.


----------



## growtogether

Hi, 
Well, I was curious to know what you want to do about all this? You want to let her go, or you want to show her it's possible to work it out?
I'm not sure to see your position. You said that you were kind of waiting for her to make her choice...Can you do something?


----------



## LeMont

growtogether said:


> Hi,
> Well, I was curious to know what you want to do about all this? You want to let her go, or you want to show her it's possible to work it out?
> I'm not sure to see your position. You said that you were kind of waiting for her to make her choice...Can you do something?


I told her despite not really being ready to, that I was moving on. She claims that she is trying but can not help that she does not still feel in love. She wants to work it out but is not sure if it will work out. I am tired of being in limbo, regardless to the reason. I agree that I should work on me and that's my plan. I am out to dinner by myself now, I'm going to my 20th reunion next week...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## iheartlife

LeMont said:


> I told her despite not really being ready to, that I was moving on. She claims that she is trying but can not help that she does not still feel in love. She wants to work it out but is not sure if it will work out. I am tired of being in limbo, regardless to the reason. I agree that I should work on me and that's my plan. I am out to dinner by myself now, I'm going to my 20th reunion next week...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't blame you for being tired of limbo. Working on youself is always a good idea. Hope you find out something in MC; you are still going, right?

Before throwing in the towel, have her take the free 5 love languages quiz; see if it tells you anything you didn't already know
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## COguy

LeMont said:


> I told her despite not really being ready to, that I was moving on. She claims that she is trying but can not help that she does not still feel in love. She wants to work it out but is not sure if it will work out. I am tired of being in limbo, regardless to the reason. I agree that I should work on me and that's my plan. I am out to dinner by myself now, I'm going to my 20th reunion next week...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know it's hard but that kind of attitude is the best way to proceed. It does two things:

1. Makes you immediately more attractive to your wife. Clears up any notion that she will be able to cake eat.

2. Assuming she elects not to work on the marriage, it puts you in the best position to move on with your life.

If you pull it off right, she'll be wondering what the heck is happening and start getting frantic. When she gave you the speech, she didn't expect that YOU'D move on without HER.


----------



## LeMont

She wants to be able to run around with her friends to dinner, movies, their homes (rarely if ever our house) art fairs, concerts etc. I can never assume that she is available to me, I have to schedule a date with her, which she honors, but it does not seem natural. The biggest issue is the obvious change, she was a home body for the most part. We would go out every weekend and have fun. Now unless I plan something, she won't be available. That is the problem in a nutshell, I do not like having to schedule time with my wife! Any given day she may be out to 1am, she will tell me where she is but does not consider what I might want to do.


----------



## iheartlife

Your situation may be entirely different. I certainly concede that.

but you might find this thread of interest, from a man who also received the ILYBINILWY speech, said his wife could never possibly cheat on him, and said he didn't doubt her and so no point in investigating. He had a sad follow up to his story tonight.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/40080-my-last-leg.html

Like I said--your case may not be anywhere near this. But this is what you will see on the forum, all the time, if you read enough threads. This is why I and others who have said similar things as I are so skeptical. Many people think it's because WE were betrayed, but my cynicism, at least, comes from reading about the many, many experiences of others.


----------



## The lost Husband

Dig it. Time to move on. I don't want her back. I need to work on me and start over.


----------



## Entropy3000

LeMont said:


> She wants to be able to run around with her friends to dinner, movies, their homes (rarely if ever our house) art fairs, concerts etc. I can never assume that she is available to me, I have to schedule a date with her, which she honors, but it does not seem natural. The biggest issue is the obvious change, she was a home body for the most part. We would go out every weekend and have fun. *Now unless I plan something, she won't be available. * That is the problem in a nutshell, I do not like having to schedule time with my wife! Any given day she may be out to 1am, she will tell me where she is but does not consider what I might want to do.


You are not her first priority. I understand the need to schedule to a point when dealing with work and family. Your kids are grown. This is about her being out a lot with her friends. I think having marriage friendly GNOs are essential. This seems way out of balance.

You can either do the 180 and cut her out of your life or possibly you should just schedule all of this time. 

Get creative. Reserve Friday, Saturday and Sunday every week. If she wants to go to a certain event you can work with her on this. Trade some time.

What does she do for a living that she has so much free time for these friends?

What you list as activities sounds harmless enough.
Does getting home at 1am make sense with what the activities are? This sounds very much like a single life style. You are never part of her activities? Ever? I forget have you met these friends?

Are you sure she has not developed an EA with one of these women?
Yeah I know they are friends. We tend to have EAs with friends.


----------



## TeaLeaves4

COguy said:


> That's all fine and dandy, the thing is, women don't realize they have "fallen out of love" unless they have found someone else to "fall in love" with. Like, you didn't realize how blurry your vision was until you got LASIK and now everything is all crisp and clear.
> 
> There's a reason almost every single cheater story starts with the ILYBNILWY speech.
> 
> The hardest part is convincing the guy that it's all too common and that they are in denial. Before you go through it, you think there's no way your wife is someone who would cheat. You don't think that your wife would go to a hotel with another dude when she's supposed to be at girl's night. Or that she would buy a prepaid phone to hide her texts or calls. Or that she would ditch work to go on a screw fest. Or that she would turn lesbian and be interested in her best friend that she swore she was "not into like that."
> 
> And yet, the forum is filled with stories like that.
> 
> In fact, I'd like for someone to come back and share with me a story about a woman who started spending all this time away from home, gave the ILYBNILWY speech, but WASN'T cheating.
> 
> The speech proceeds a desire to create space, or get out on your own. If she just wants to hang out with her friend, she can't do that married? Why does she want independence so bad if she's not interested in someone else?
> 
> She may not have even cheated yet, but she is out there with her friend and she is at the least, excited by something when she is out that she can't do without feeling guilty while married.
> 
> My guess is they are hitting the bars together and flirting with guys, or that she is having feelings for her female friend, or that she is smart and took an affair underground (prepaid phone, secret email, etc.).
> 
> She went on an overnight trip, anything could've happened. Spend $40 and put a VAR in her car, that will really tell you what's going on. Or get a babysitter and tail her a couple nights and see where she's going and what she's doing.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TeaLeaves4

Women who are in love with their husbands don't want out of their marriages, period. I think your theory is actually the other way around. They fall out of love first, then after a period of time when they may try to fix things but nothing changes, that's when they want out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

TeaLeaves4 said:


> Women who are in love with their husbands don't want out of their marriages, period. I think your theory is actually the other way around. They fall out of love first, then after a period of time when they may try to fix things but nothing changes, that's when they want out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is the walk away wife scenario.

If this is true she was on her way out long before she left for her six months away.

This is one scenario. It does happen this way, but it also happens the other as well.

In this scenario she felt she was communicating her needs. They were unmet. She stopped complaining. This could have been when she decided to fulfill her career goals sans her hubby. Unfortunately when women stop communicating their needs guys think things are getting better. In reality the woman is done and on her exit strategy.
Then when the exit begins for real the guy is like WTF!? She never said there was a problem.

Anyway, sure this could be the scenario. However it is still hard to tell. Either way she is bailing on her marriage. This much is true.

It does seem cruel at the least that he supported her six months away while she completed her disconnect from him. Hard to tell but again maybe she needed him for a while and now she does not. Separation does not always make the heart grow fonder.

I confess, I would be too selfish to go along with this type of separation at this stage in life. I am sure she made it out as a very special opportunity. But you have to wonder if she could not have pursued this in a more marriage friendly way. This decision seems to support she has been on her way out for a while.


----------



## iheartlife

totally agree with entropy. It is hard to say exactly what is going on with his wife, there are several possibilities.

While LeMont may not be dealing with an affair situation, this issue that entropy is alluding to is the hardest to get across to people who have not been betrayed (not sure what your past has been like, tealeaves).

The reason affairs are so bleeping horrible is because of the classic, typical cheater--the cake eater.

They enjoy the supportive, affectionate, deeper bonded love of marriage with their spouse.

And they enjoy the infatuated, passionate (some call it limerance) "love" or affection with their affair partner.

They derive something from both people and they see no purpose to hasten the end of the marriage. After all--what if the affair goes south? Are you going to go through a big messy, expensive divorce for nothing?

These types of I Love You But I'm Not In Love With Yous can continue for years under the nose of the loyal spouse--until the loyal spouse pours a hard dose of reality onto the cheater. When a hard line is drawn, the cheater is forced to choose: spouse or AP. Those who choose the AP, ironically, do not usually go off into the sunset; affair partners are often not good life partner material (shocker, I know).

But some cheating spouses (my recommitted husband was one of them) don't end the affair when it's first discovered. They take it deeper underground. Why would they do that? Well, again, they are getting so much out of BOTH relationships that they continue to try to see just how far this gravy train will go.

Other cheaters, upon discovery, aren't given a hard line by the spouse. Their loyal spouses hope to "nice" them out of the affair. In these cases, you will see the cheaters continue the affair, often without even moving out of the marital home. Again--why would they give up a good thing? No one is going to make them, so they may as well!

So while a woman who is entirely in love with her husband many not want out of the marriage--there are cases where a woman is not entirely in love but DOESN'T want out of the marriage. She even gives the I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You speech. But somehow, she never sits you down and asks you for a divorce--she just seeks more "freedom" to have her cake and eat it too.


----------



## LeMont

Entropy3000 said:


> You are not her first priority. I understand the need to schedule to a point when dealing with work and family. Your kids are grown. This is about her being out a lot with her friends. I think having marriage friendly GNOs are essential. This seems way out of balance.
> 
> You can either do the 180 and cut her out of your life or possibly you should just schedule all of this time.
> 
> Get creative. Reserve Friday, Saturday and Sunday every week. If she wants to go to a certain event you can work with her on this. Trade some time.
> 
> What does she do for a living that she has so much free time for these friends?
> 
> What you list as activities sounds harmless enough.
> Does getting home at 1am make sense with what the activities are? This sounds very much like a single life style. You are never part of her activities? Ever? I forget have you met these friends?
> 
> Are you sure she has not developed an EA with one of these women?
> Yeah I know they are friends. We tend to have EAs with friends.


What are EAs? I am missing a lot of the lingo on here lol. The bottom line is she does not want to be married, the going out lack of sex are just the tangible changes in behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LeMont

She now says, not in an argument, that she no longer wants to be married at all, she is not on love with me and is not sexually attracted to me. But she wants to continue with counseling and hopes that she can change. She realizes it is unfair, but this is how she feels. Regardless of the reason, cheating or just selfishness, this hurts badly. I know I have to separate but, the pain is severe. How do I cope with the pain of my marriage ending and losing my family the kids were in my life since they were 3&5 and are now grown. I am not sure how they will respond, but potentially I can lose them as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## iheartlife

LeMont said:


> What are EAs? I am missing a lot of the lingo on here lol. The bottom line is she does not want to be married, the going out lack of sex are just the tangible changes in behavior.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


EAs are emotional affairs. Cheating without the physical. I love yous, and all innermost thoughts / fears / dreams are channeled to the affair partner and stop being disclosed to the spouse.


----------



## iheartlife

LeMont said:


> She now says, not in an argument, that she no longer wants to be married at all, she is not on love with me and is not sexually attracted to me. But she wants to continue with counseling and hopes that she can change. She realizes it is unfair, but this is how she feels. Regardless of the reason, cheating or just selfishness, this hurts badly. I know I have to separate but, the pain is severe. How do I cope with the pain of my marriage ending and losing my family the kids were in my life since they were 3&5 and are now grown. I am not sure how they will respond, but potentially I can lose them as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know you're so tired of us pressing this issue.

How do you know she didn't meet someone when she was gone for 6 mos. 

The fact that it might have ended, and she might not be in touch any more, would just mean it would not be detectable now and could stay safely hidden from you indefinitely.


----------



## LeMont

iheartlife said:


> I know you're so tired of us pressing this issue.
> 
> How do you know she didn't meet someone when she was gone for 6 mos.
> 
> The fact that it might have ended, and she might not be in touch any more, would just mean it would not be detectable now and could stay safely hidden from you indefinitely.


I don't know, it could have happened. Should I proceed as if it did occur? Regardless, what she is telling me is enough to be devasted without cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy

LeMont said:


> She now says, not in an argument, that she no longer wants to be married at all, she is not on love with me and is not sexually attracted to me. But she wants to continue with counseling and hopes that she can change. She realizes it is unfair, but this is how she feels. Regardless of the reason, cheating or just selfishness, this hurts badly. I know I have to separate but, the pain is severe. How do I cope with the pain of my marriage ending and losing my family the kids were in my life since they were 3&5 and are now grown. I am not sure how they will respond, but potentially I can lose them as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is a thread here (I believe it is in the Coping with Infideltiy forum) called Just Let Them Go. Please read it and work on applying it. I think you will need it.

If you have been in your children's life that long, I think there is a real chance that they will continue to want to have a relationship. reach out to them and let them know what is going on, without bashing their mother, and reassure them that you want them in your life. 

I am sorry to say this, but I am almost hoping that you find out there is another man. Otherwise, the most reasonable explanation for her behavior is unspeakable.

I wish you luck.


----------



## vi_bride04

Why don't you want to verify anything? Are you scared of what you might discover?? You really won't have a gameplan until you know exactly what you are dealing with...


----------



## Entropy3000

LeMont said:


> She now says, not in an argument, that she no longer wants to be married at all, she is not on love with me and is not sexually attracted to me. But she wants to continue with counseling and hopes that she can change. She realizes it is unfair, but this is how she feels. Regardless of the reason, cheating or just selfishness, this hurts badly. I know I have to separate but, the pain is severe. How do I cope with the pain of my marriage ending and losing my family the kids were in my life since they were 3&5 and are now grown. I am not sure how they will respond, but potentially I can lose them as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is there a financial or other reason she wishes to keep you hanging on in a loveless sexless marriage? 

She is clearly hurting you and tearing you down. 

So you may have covered this, but looking back now how was the relationship BEFORE she left you for six months. Is it possible that she is a walk away wife like discussed earlier. Or is this just a complete change of reality since she has been gone?

Yes I agree whether cheating or not this is bad. However, the root cause of why she feels the way she does may make a difference as to how you proceed.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

LeMont said:


> She now says, not in an argument, that she no longer wants to be married at all, she is not on love with me and is not sexually attracted to me. But she wants to continue with counseling and hopes that she can change. She realizes it is unfair, but this is how she feels. Regardless of the reason, cheating or just selfishness, this hurts badly. I know I have to separate but, the pain is severe. How do I cope with the pain of my marriage ending and losing my family the kids were in my life since they were 3&5 and are now grown. I am not sure how they will respond, but potentially I can lose them as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Separating can be a ploy to let her try out another person without you being able to watch her. Many believe that separation is just a way to string out the divorce, to consider telling her that is she wants to separate, you will find an attorney and start the process.

Regardless, look out for yourself. Talk to an attorney to figure out your options. Stop putting money into any account she has access to. Get half of the money out of any joint accounts. Protect yourself. She may not do anything underhanded, but recognize she is not the woman you knew. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.


----------



## RClawson

LaMont,

Your story shakes my core. Every once and a while I read a post and great despair follows. This is one of them.

I am sorry that it has come to this. I do not know if you wife is cheating and I think people jump the gun here a bit fast (but I get it), but I thought it from your initial post. 

Your wife is clearly invested emotionally in someone else. I makes me want to scream that she will not come out and just say has happened, is happening or what she wants to happen. I find her more than a bit of a coward.

My own wife has colleagues that she invests more in emotionally than me and it sucks. It is not even close to degree you are speaking of but I found it quite telling last year when we were discussing a friend whose wife had died and remarried that she told me she would never remarry if I died first. This is when I began to connect the dots. She loves me but in her words she has "experienced" this and it has been enough for her. I mean imagine having to train a new puppy.

She has her books, her friends, her job and me every Saturday morning if she wants. 

Please start to focus on yourself. I would not have sex with her again (I think you mentioned a couple times a month). I mean there are other empty receptacles around the house. Sorry to be so crass but her behavior sickens me deeply. 

"Your Kids" need to know what is going on. Do not disparage their Mom but allow them to support you. My gut tells me they know who their Dad is and may be surprised at who their Mother has become. Maybe you could break the news on Mothers Day for effect. 

I know you are still committed but I do not like the odds here for you.


----------



## Entropy3000

I am not a fan of separation personally. Just another way of cake eating without having to give anything back. I concede there may be limited reasons for a separation as in when there is substance abuse for example.

It isolates the couple from each other. You have already had a separation. Six months. How did that work out? What would the goal be for you?

There just seems something more driving her. As has been pointed out what exactly is she wanting more of? She has complete freedom now. 

She just wants you out of her life. She does not want to be married.
She wants the freedom to do things that a single person does. This is why many folks are pointing to an affair or just that she wants to pursue another relationship. I get the idea that she wants to be independent period. But she went away from you, has new friends she cannot get enough of and has done nothing but say she no longer loves you and is not sexually attracted to you. 

So how have the financials changed over the past two years. has her income gone up? How does it compare to your from then and now?


----------



## LeMont

Entropy3000 said:


> I am not a believer in separation personally. Just another way of cake eating without having to give anything back.
> 
> It isolates the couple from each other. You have already had a spearation. Six months. How did that work out?
> 
> There just seems something more driving her. As has been pointed out what exactly is she wanting more of? She has complete freedom now.
> 
> She just wants you out of her life. She does not want to be married.
> She wants the freedom to do things that a single person does. This is why many folks are pointing to an affair or just that she wants to pursue another relationship. I get the idea that she wants to be independent period. But she went away from you, has new friends she cannot get enough of and has done nothing but say she no longer loves you and is not sexually attracted to you.
> 
> So how have the financials changed over the past two years. has her income gone up? How does it compare to your from then and now?


Currently she is not employed but will have her MBA next month and is interviewing. She has been unemployed most of the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## A Bit Much

LeMont said:


> Currently she is not employed but will have her MBA next month and is interviewing. She has been unemployed most of the marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So when she gets a job, she'll pack her bags.

The counseling sounds like a stall tactic. She needs you financially right now, so well, she's keeping up appearances until she gets that job and can support herself.

I don't see this any other way. I'm actually surprised she didn't drop the bomb right after the MBA. She did it before, so you can maybe spend time wrapping your mind around her wanting out. Maybe it'll be more acceptable to you a few months down the road?

I don't know. I'm not her, just trying to root around her head like we all are.


----------



## A Bit Much

How long has she been back from her 6 month thing? How much time passed between her coming back and her speech?


----------



## COguy

LeMont said:


> She now says, not in an argument, that she no longer wants to be married at all, she is not on love with me and is not sexually attracted to me. But she wants to continue with counseling and hopes that she can change. She realizes it is unfair, but this is how she feels. Regardless of the reason, cheating or just selfishness, this hurts badly. I know I have to separate but, the pain is severe. How do I cope with the pain of my marriage ending and losing my family the kids were in my life since they were 3&5 and are now grown. I am not sure how they will respond, but potentially I can lose them as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How one handles this is different depending on how YOU can handle it.

First off, you have to decide if you WANT to make it work.

In your case I am 99% sure your wife is cheating on you. She is following the cheater's script to a T. That may mean sex with someone else, or it may mean an EA (possibly with one of her female friends). It has been proven repeatedly that working on a marriage, counseling, separation, etc is completely useless while your spouse is in an affair.

So if you WANT to make it work, your first step is to end the affair. That would require you doing your due diligence to get evidence. Meaning that you put a keylogger on her computer, you check her phone records, emails, FB, texts, put a VAR in her car, and in your case the most helpful would be to follow her one night as she parades around the town.

Cheater's won't ever admit they are cheating, so you will need hard proof.

Whether you find the proof or not, you still do the same thing. Write a letter, you tell them you won't stay in a relationship where she is not 100% committed to your needs, she has 24 hours to make a decision if she wants to be married or not. If she wants to be married and committed, you will work on the marriage 100%. If she doesn't want to commit, have the DIVORCE papers ready for her to sign the next day.

Your wife is a cake eater, she wants all the benefits of your marriage, without having to supply any of your needs. She gets your love, support, money, companionship whenever she wants, in turn, she still gets to be single and enjoy the company of other people. She must understand that this will no longer fly. If she wants to be single, she is single, and she no longer is entitled to the benefits of your marriage (namely, you and your money).

If you do NOT want to be married, the choice is clear, get a lawyer and get the papers drafted up now. You'll probably notice after you do this she'll suddenly want to start working on things.

Read this thread again, specifically the post I linked to:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/38920-women-s-infidelity-book.html#post565715

You WILL NOT win your wife back by being a nice guy. You must find the strength to be self-confident and walk away if you want to get her affections back. This means you have to be ready to throw in the towel. It means you do not accept her disrespect for your marriage.

Make no mistake, telling you that she is being selfish and doesn't want to be married but wants to stick around is incredibly disrespectful. Only a man with extremely low self-respect would accept this kind of situation. That lack of self-respect is a major turn off for your wife. She NEEDS you to drop the hammer on her, her biology is made to test you to discover what kind of man you are. If you are not the strongest wolf in the pack, she's going to go to the one who is.


----------



## COguy

> The reason many women will give for their desire to separate is a “search for self.” They convince their husbands that they might be able to save their marriage if they can just have time to themselves. They tell their husbands that time apart is the only hope of improving their current situation. Women at this stage want to free themselves of the restrictions of marriage and spend more time with their lovers. Most think that eventually their confusion will disappear. They think they will eventually know with certainty whether they want to stay married or get divorced and be with their lovers. Separation allows women at this stage, to enjoy the high they experience with their lovers without giving up the security of their marriages. Husbands of Stage 3 women are often unaware that their wives are having affairs. Their lack of suspicion is typically due to their wife’s disinterest in sex and in their belief that their wife is a “good girl.”


----------



## Entropy3000

LeMont said:


> Currently she is not employed but will have her MBA next month and is interviewing. She has been unemployed most of the marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see!!!!!


So you supported her and her children. She has pursued a career that quite frankly could have meant a better life for you both, but intends to leave the marriage.

This is consistent with a walk away wife who set out on an exit strategy. It is also consistent with a wife who got involved with a different goup of folks who she considers higher up the socio-econmic chain. Trading up if you will. They sometimes see certain men as more fit. Hence her no longer seeing you as attractive.

She is just buying time until she can get setup and cut you from her life permanently. That is what this is all about. Sorry. We cannot tell from the information provided how long this has been her plan. 

Did you pay for her education?


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

LeMont said:


> She now says, not in an argument, that she no longer wants to be married at all, she is not on love with me and is not sexually attracted to me. But she wants to continue with counseling and hopes that she can change. She realizes it is unfair, but this is how she feels. Regardless of the reason, cheating or just selfishness, this hurts badly. I know I have to separate but, the pain is severe. How do I cope with the pain of my marriage ending and losing my family the kids were in my life since they were 3&5 and are now grown. I am not sure how they will respond, but potentially I can lose them as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I assume you went to the store to buy a newspaper and told her you expect her to be gone when you return


----------



## A Bit Much

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I assume you went to the store to buy a newspaper and told her you expect her to be gone when you return


He wouldn't do that, and she knows it. He doesn't have the heart to, he still loves her, and she's going to use every drop of it until she is ready to leave on her own.


----------



## Conrad

This is called hypergamy

No man should be unfamiliar with the concept.



Entropy3000 said:


> I see!!!!!
> 
> 
> So you supported her and her children. She has pursued a career that quite frankly could have meant a better life for you both, but intends to leave the marriage.
> 
> This is consistent with a walk away wife who set out on an exit strategy. It is also consistent with a wife who got involved with a different goup of folks who she considers higher up the socio-econmic chain. Trading up if you will. They sometimes see certain men as more fit. Hence her no longer seeing you as attractive.
> 
> She is just buying time until she can get setup and cut you from her life permanently. That is what this is all about. Sorry. We cannot tell from the information provided how long this has been her plan.
> 
> Did you pay for her education?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Entropy3000 said:


> I see!!!!!
> 
> 
> So you supported her and her children. She has pursued a career that quite frankly could have meant a better life for you both, but intends to leave the marriage.
> 
> This is consistent with a walk away wife who set out on an exit strategy. It is also consistent with a wife who got involved with a different goup of folks who she considers higher up the socio-econmic chain. Trading up if you will. They sometimes see certain men as more fit. Hence her no longer seeing you as attractive.
> 
> She is just buying time until she can get setup and cut you from her life permanently. That is what this is all about. Sorry. We cannot tell from the information provided how long this has been her plan.
> 
> Did you pay for her education?


I hate to raise it, but consider this:

They knew each other in high school, but he was never considered a romantic suiter. After her divorce, his stability and job allowed her to live a nice life with her children supported. He pays for her education (which is now finished) and the kids are now out of the home. All of this conveniently coincides with her new discovery that she is not in love with him any more and is not sure she will ever get that back. I don't believe in these types of coincidences.


----------



## A Bit Much

She has a master plan alright. And TAG you may be onto something there too.

LeMont, you need to get very angry, very fast. I'd be waaaaaay past hurt. This is utter and complete nonsense. Trickery at best, cruelty at it's worst.


----------



## Entropy3000

Conrad said:


> This is called hypergamy
> 
> No man should be unfamiliar with the concept.


It is indeed sir.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

A Bit Much said:


> She has a master plan alright. And TAG you may be onto something there too.
> 
> LeMont, you need to get very angry, very fast. I'd be waaaaaay past hurt. This is utter and complete nonsense. Trickery at best, cruelty at it's worst.


I hope I am wrong. And even if I am right, it might not be an intentional action (by that, I mean she did not plan out finding a decent guy to support her then dump him, all the while riding around on her broom stick with her flying monkeys and an evil cackle). But it is what it is. 

I do think LeMont needs to get angry and put this back on her. Because right now, her actions don't look good.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Tall Average Guy said:


> I hope I am wrong. ... But it is what it is.


We can certainly say that's what it looks like. It passes the "duck test". I've seen many cases where people who are highly self absorbed inadvertently find themselves doing things that are completely immoral because they really didn't think about anyone or anything other than themselves.

It's only fair that the op should present this thinking to his wife and give her a chance to rethink things, make right and set the story straight if it was not her intention to take such blatant advantage


----------



## COguy

Ten_year_hubby said:


> We can certainly say that's what it looks like. It passes the "duck test". I've seen many cases where people who are highly self absorbed inadvertently find themselves doing things that are completely immoral because they really didn't think about anyone or anything other than themselves.
> 
> It's only fair that the op should present this thinking to his wife and give her a chance to rethink things, make right and set the story straight if it was not her intention to take such blatant advantage


I can't see any good coming of that.

Let's assume it's true, would a person that blatantly selfish have the self-realization to see it for what it was?

I don't believe there are many people on this planet capable of that kind of blatant manipulation. I think instead what happens is women are attracted to a level of security. It's a biological thing really. The guy has money, it's sexy to them. It doesn't make their good experiences or love fake. It's just one of the many motivators in their relationship.

It's no different than a man marrying a beautiful woman, and then she packs on 100 pounds and he finds himself bored in the marriage.

It would take some serious gonads to say, "I'm broke, that guy has money, I'm going to marry him for 18 years and then move on." 99% of the time it would not be a conscious decision. so bringing it up as such would be an incredible waste of time.

A better way to handle it might be, "What did you originally find attractive about me? How has that changed?"


----------



## LeMont

Entropy3000 said:


> I see!!!!!
> 
> 
> So you supported her and her children. She has pursued a career that quite frankly could have meant a better life for you both, but intends to leave the marriage.
> 
> This is consistent with a walk away wife who set out on an exit strategy. It is also consistent with a wife who got involved with a different goup of folks who she considers higher up the socio-econmic chain. Trading up if you will. They sometimes see certain men as more fit. Hence her no longer seeing you as attractive.
> 
> She is just buying time until she can get setup and cut you from her life permanently. That is what this is all about. Sorry. We cannot tell from the information provided how long this has been her plan.
> 
> Did you pay for her education?


No she used student loans,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

COguy said:


> would a person that blatantly selfish have the self-realization to see it for what it was?
> 
> I don't believe there are many people on this planet capable of that kind of blatant manipulation.
> 
> A better way to handle it might be, "What did you originally find attractive about me? How has that changed?"


Sure they would and sure there are. I've seen both these personalities in my circle of acquaintances.

I think you have an excellent question and it should certainly be asked first.


----------



## Lon

LeMont said:


> No she used student loans,
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Which you are responsible for, it is marital debt, if you divorce you get half the tab. (though possibly depending on your jurisdiction it may be considered separate from the community debt if your lawyers advises). Did the loans cover just tuition, tuition+books or did it cover other living expenses? Either way, yes, you paid for her education, in large part.


----------



## Conrad

LeMont said:


> No she used student loans,
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Who paid for her food?

Who paid for her housing?


----------



## iheartlife

Another thread that might interest you, LeMont. The spouse in the link below is at a very different stage in life, but the end result is the same.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/45989-question-ladies-want-leave.html


----------



## LeMont

Okay, we are at the stage of filing for divorce. How do I get over that?


----------



## A Bit Much

LeMont said:


> Okay, we are at the stage of filing for divorce. How do I get over that?


What's happened? No more MC?


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

LeMont said:


> Okay, we are at the stage of filing for divorce. How do I get over that?


Whose idea is this, yours or hers?


----------



## iheartlife

What happened? Be as specific and detailed as you can.


----------



## LeMont

She does not want to work on it anymore. So the MC said there was no point continuing. She really does not love or have attraction for me. She is really into her friends. I really need help with this transition.


----------



## A Bit Much

LeMont said:


> She does not want to work on it anymore. So the MC said there was no point continuing. She really does not love or have attraction for me. She is really into her friends. I really need help with this transition.


Did you ask if the MC could do some IC with you to help you through this? If not then I think you should.

I'm sorry, but there isn't much you can do right now, other than take care of yourself. I'm afraid that the time apart helped her to grieve the end of your relationship, whereas now you're just starting to grieve it.


----------



## LeMont

She still wants to act like nothing has happened, asked me to go to dinner with her friends yesterday as well as watch a movie with her and go to a concert in 3 months.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

LeMont said:


> She still wants to act like nothing has happened, asked me to go to dinner with her friends yesterday as well as watch a movie with her and go to a concert in 3 months.


People fall in and out of love all the time. It would seem that she still wants to date you, which is a good thing. If you won her affections once you are certainly in the best position to win them again


----------



## LeMont

I am done, I don't trust her.


----------



## A Bit Much

LeMont said:


> I am done, I don't trust her.


Are you angry yet?? You'll need that to move forward.


----------



## Lon

If she's telling you she is done the marriage, then is inviting you out, she is just trying to appease her bad conscience. Definitely do not give her the benefit of your time and friendship, that is something reserved for those who are worthy of it (and IMO a person who discards their marriage like yesterday's trash is NOT worthy of their ex spouse's friendship).


----------



## iheartlife

LeMont said:


> I am done, I don't trust her.


What does this mean?


----------



## LeMont

She acted like she wanted to work, but was just leading me on. She is not trust worthy. When I get over it, I do not want to risk falling back in and having a repeat performance


----------



## COguy

LeMont said:


> She acted like she wanted to work, but was just leading me on. She is not trust worthy. When I get over it, I do not want to risk falling back in and having a repeat performance


Ok so if you're done, then take our advice and do the snoopery. It will help you in the D (depending on your state).

We're all telling you she's cheating...


----------



## iheartlife

LeMont said:


> She acted like she wanted to work, but was just leading me on. She is not trust worthy. When I get over it, I do not want to risk falling back in and having a repeat performance


LeMont, you want help. I know you probably are tired of being beat up. We promise it is not to be mean, but to prevent you from making the mistakes so very many others (including myself) have made.

What do you mean, she is not trusthworthy. How do you know she was "leading you on?" More detail, please.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

LeMont said:


> I am done, I don't trust her.


Can't blame you, I'm just saying it doesn't have to be that way. If you're really done then there's not much left


----------



## LeMont

She is still trying to act like things are normal which made me think that an improvement was happening. Then she makes it clear that she is gone. I hear her having a blast on the phone with her friends, while I am breaking down.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

LeMont said:


> She is still trying to act like things are normal which made me think that an improvement was happening. Then she makes it clear that she is gone. I hear her having a blast on the phone with her friends, while I am breaking down.


Look into the 180 (it is on this site) and follow it. If you are done, it is a great tool for helping you stay strong and move on. If she does not want to be married to you, show her what that is really like. Stop the dating, the helping, everything. Move on for yourself.


----------



## iheartlife

I'm sure she is having fun, planning her next outing on the telephone that you bought, using the phone service you paid for. It's probably raining out, but at least she's comfortable under the roof that you purchased. I wonder where they will be going to dinner, or the movies, or to a club, all on your dime. Maybe she'll buy a new outfit with your credit card, while she's at it.

LeMont, what you are going through is excruciatingly painful. My heart breaks for you. But you don't have stand idly by, handing her the knife so she can stab you in the heart once again.


----------



## SprucHub

Who is her current lifestyle? She has not worked and is out having a blast. Shut it (all funds and credit) down.


----------



## KanDo

Look, my friend. I am sorry you are here. I will give you the advise that everyone else has given you. 

MAN UP!

Stop caring about this selfish waste of human flesh! She has no soul. She has used you and now is done with you. Get the paperwork filed and serve her NOW! Do not be around for her. Certainly do not accept these dates and start working in yourself. Exercise, go out with friends. Be happy when she is around. Note that I said BE happy. Don't pretend to be happy. Realize that your life actually just got better. Your are shedding your self of this loathsome creature. If you want to feel a little better about your circumstances, you can read my story. Been there, done that in spades!

Life will get better, my friend. Do reach out to the kids and work on the new you.


----------



## RClawson

LeMont,

What is it going to take? I would start the "you are dead to me" act asap! I know I am pretty beta but if my wife did what yours is there would be hell to pay! There would be no coming back from this for me. It would be the final straw. In my mind this is almost if not worse than a PA. What kind of sociopath is she?


----------



## DayDream

LeMont said:


> She is still trying to act like things are normal which made me think that an improvement was happening. Then she makes it clear that she is gone. I hear her having a blast on the phone with her friends, while I am breaking down.


My friend's ex wife was the same way...acting like everything was normal and they were still best buds even as she was screwing some other guy and going through the divorce. He finally had to tell her, after the fourth or fifth time of asking him if he wanted to go to lunch/dinner that they weren't friends.


----------



## LeMont

I agree, but being alone is torture for me. I need help with that.


----------



## bandit.45

Follow the link below my post to the 180.

As for lonliness... sorry brother, that's part of the journey. Welcome to the club no one wants to belong to.


----------



## COguy

C


LeMont said:


> I agree, but being alone is torture for me. I need help with that.


Don't let fear lead your decisions. Confront your fears head on.


----------



## LeMont

Ok this is now crazy, she wants to separate but does not seem to want to work on the marriage at all. I wonder what the point would be, but many of my family and friends suggest this approach as well instead of divorce...


----------



## keko

"Seperation" is only a cover to sleep with other men but have the benefit of a marriage when she decide's to come back.


----------



## DTO

I don't think there's much benefit in it for you.

If you do go for it, make sure it is a legal separation. That is, you still divide assets, have a formal agreement that protects your income and property, custody agreement for kids, etc.

What you do not want is a situation where she is claiming separation to buy time to lower the boom on you later. I see it as more of a psychological difference than anything else.

If she does not agree to a formal legal separation with all of these items set in place, then you have the answer you need.


----------



## iheartlife

LeMont said:


> Ok this is now crazy, she wants to separate but does not seem to want to work on the marriage at all. I wonder what the point would be, but many of my family and friends suggest this approach as well instead of divorce...


It's called having your cake and eating it too. Divorce would represent some type of financial hit. I mean, she'd actually have to get a job with that degree of hers (or if she has one already, she have to work more hours or change to one that paid more money).

Separating gives her permission to do WHATEVER she wants while maintaing all of the security of marriage. Again, if you think her primary motivation is to whoop it up with a bunch of female friends, I highly doubt it--unless there's a bunch of males around too.

I know it is beyond painful to go through this. It is much easier to believe that her primary motivation is to just have more tame, innocent fun. But I've said it many times, and I'll say it again--she is already having more fun than most married people. What more fun could she possibly have separated than she has right now? you know the answer already.


----------



## luvintokyo

Its amazing how the guys on the forum are so "guyish". They almost always jump to conclusion that the woman is cheating and they advocate vengeance and cutting the woman off financially. If he really did love her and still loves her would he want to hurt her? Does it always have to end like the Talibans, I find the responses absolutely unhelpful and downright childish sx. The truth is no marriage ends in a day, no woman in her right senses will marry a man and plan to dump him after 16yrs, there must have been some handwriting on the wall even before the 6months she spent away. There must have been things she mentioned that she felt were not addressed and she simply believe it wont change or not might have gotten tired of trying. Even if he paid her college tuition, people have done that for loved ones and not expect anything in return, come on she also has 16yrs of her life, her kids involved. Love is a living thing, it needs to be nurtured, pruned and watered. It wont start long periods of drought. Its like the parable of the sower in the bible, if its on good ground it thrives. Both sides have to learn how to love.


----------



## iheartlife

luvintokyo said:


> Its amazing how the guys on the forum are so "guyish". They almost always jump to conclusion that the woman is cheating and they advocate vengeance and cutting the woman off financially. If he really did love her and still loves her would he want to hurt her? Does it always have to end like the Talibans, I find the responses absolutely unhelpful and downright childish sx. The truth is no marriage ends in a day, no woman in her right senses will marry a man and plan to dump him after 16yrs, there must have been some handwriting on the wall even before the 6months she spent away. There must have been things she mentioned that she felt were not addressed and she simply believe it wont change or not might have gotten tired of trying. Even if he paid her college tuition, people have done that for loved ones and not expect anything in return, come on she also has 16yrs of her life, her kids involved. Love is a living thing, it needs to be nurtured, pruned and watered. It wont start long periods of drought. Its like the parable of the sower in the bible, if its on good ground it thrives. Both sides have to learn how to love.


Not sure if you're talking about me, but I am most certainly not a "guy."

Have you read all the threads where the I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You speech signals a betrayal in the marriage? Start reading. You will come away astounded. I've linked a couple in this very thread--people who came back months later to say that indeed their worst fears were proven true--SINCE LeMont started his thread, which wasn't so long ago.

Both spouses are responsible for the vulnerabilities of their marriage, but if a spouse is cheating--they are 100% responsible for that choice. You can't fix a marriage with 3 people in it. And here's the catch--cheaters just don't ask you for a divorce first before cheating. Typically, they choose to hide their affair for as long as possible and often won't admit it before being caught.

Of course the ILYBINILWY speech isn't a fail-safe proof of anything. Most things aren't in human relations. But--and my understanding of this was learned in the most painful way--a spouse who hears these words, and makes no move to confirm whether or not there is an affair--will more often than not live to regret it.


----------



## luvintokyo

It wasnt addressed to you, just noted its prevalent in this forum to advocate vengeance. Marriage is a partnership, its not easy to walk alone, I am female obviously and has seen a lot of my friends suffer in marriage, I chose to leave, it was easier because thank God I wasnt financially dependent so no one could "cut me off". Wouldnt want to spend the rest of my life miserable. "Life" is a choice primarily not a marriage. Like the Irish saying If God sends you down a stony path, may he give you strong shoes.


----------



## iheartlife

luvintokyo said:


> It wasnt addressed to you, just noted its prevalent in this forum to advocate vengeance. Marriage is a partnership, its not easy to walk alone, I am female obviously and has seen a lot of my friends suffer in marriage, I chose to leave, it was easier because thank God I wasnt financially dependent so no one could "cut me off". Wouldnt want to spend the rest of my life miserable. "Life" is a choice primarily not a marriage. Like the Irish saying If God sends you down a stony path, may he give you strong shoes.


Understood.


----------



## TRy

LeMont said:


> Ok this is now crazy, she wants to separate but does not seem to want to work on the marriage at all. I wonder what the point would be, but many of my family and friends suggest this approach as well instead of divorce...


 She did not work and was able to stay home and have you support her and her children. When the children moved out, you supported her as she got her MBA and supported her as she went to Europe and lived like a single woman with a single friend. You have been her meal ticket and she wants to keep you as her backup meal ticket as she tests the waters starting a career. 

As for you saying earlier that you did not pay for her education because she took out loans, think again. She was unemployed yet always had enough money to live a good life and even live over seas without you. Also, when the terms are finalized for the divorce, you will see that directly or indirectly, you will be paying on those loans.

She has taken you for granted and lost respect for you. A separation is her just wanting to cake eat some more where she always has you for security. Your best bet is to do the 180 and move for a full divorce. You should mean it and not look back when you file. You should be strong and not appear needy. Get busy with your life and not be available to her. Do not count on it, but when you do this she may wake up and you may get her back as a real wife not the person she is now; the odds are not good but for this to happen but it is you best shot. BTW, she will test the waters to see if she can get you back anytime she wants and then dump you when she fells she has you again. Do not make it too easy for her to earn you back if she tries. Do not spit in her face if she tries but make her work for it and do not be easy.


----------

