# new member - best described as Truth Seeking



## statuscheck

Hi TAM -- I'm here for others' stories and to read opinions of my situation, which I realize is far from unique. So...
How do we tell if our SO of 27 years 1. simply loves the thrill and ego boost of flirting; 2. is somehow outrageously attractive to amorous women (in other words does _nothing_ to encourage them); 3. is a philanderer who is so accustomed to picking up women he's getting sloppy and spouse is finally having to see/accept it.

about him: He was supposedly in love with me our entire growing up time before we dated; he's professionally successful; Phd; nice looking; on the shorter side; losing hair; other women seem to swoon over him; highly intelligent; awkward social skills; grew up around wildly successful men who all cheated shamelessly; we've known each other since 6th grade but dated after college.

about me: I must be decent looking - men aren't wild over me but I get respectful looks; had gained weight probably from lack of sex but now am back in shape (still mostly without sex); kind and friendly; resuming career work after taking time out of workforce to parent; working on masters degree; described as "sweet".

I've always puzzled over all the ruined female relationships/friendships I've had where the common denominator was husband "acting weird" with them and them then becoming weird and awkward towards me. It's to the point that I have to warn him before we go to a party or event, to please don't do anything to "accidentally" attract female flirters. Are some men that appealing? That they can do nothing but dote on their SO but women are still drawn helplessly to them like moths to a flame? Could he be that innocent and are women that sex-starved and aggressive? This is where I want to begin with ya'lls opinions. THANK YOU

p.s. most recent example: at parent gathering for our teenager's hobby. I was facing my husband across a hallway. A slutty looking mom who'd been lingering near us earlier was also on my side so could see him from the same vantage point, asked the question of the organizers, "Is it ok for my son to just walk here? You see, I just live right across the street...." I decided this is a sensible question but then my alarm bells went off. And holy **** I realized she may have said that to signal to interested dads that yes she just lives across the street while they have two hours to kill waiting for their kids to finish up with rehearsals. Right? Or am I just paranoid? Welcome to my daily inner dialog/dilemma/torment. 

So my eyes flash to husband who no longer looked like a bored detached parent. He's suddenly smiling a smug smile of obvious warmth, head tilted, eyes scanning her body. I watch his eyes; they seem to settle and squint while scanning her mid-section, then perhaps glance back up to her face and down again. I wanted to vomit. Then his eyes jump to me and he realizes I can see him! His squinches up his face and suddenly looks intensely serious and intent on hearing the organizer again, in an upright posture (and yes he looked worried now). Later he tells me he has no idea what I'm talking about and doesn't remember any person of her description asking that question or being present. Swears he does not know at all what I'm talking about and it's as though we were at two different events.


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## jlg07

Welcome to TAM -- sorry that you are having these issues with your H. HE is the one who has to enforce the boundaries that are acceptable to you and your marriage -- and he sounds like he really is NOT doing that.
Have you gone to any Marriage counseling (MC)???


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## Mr.Married

Has your husband ever said you were making false accusations t words him or said that you are saying things that are untrue about him? Has he ever been the one initiating these occurrences?


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## bobert

statuscheck said:


> A slutty looking mom who'd been lingering near us earlier was also on my side so could see him from the same vantage point, asked the question of the organizers, "Is it ok for my son to just walk here? You see, I just live right across the street...." I decided this is a sensible question but then my alarm bells went off. And holy **** I realized she may have said that to signal to interested dads that yes she just lives across the street while they have two hours to kill waiting for their kids to finish up with rehearsals. Right? Or am I just paranoid? Welcome to my daily inner dialog/dilemma/torment.


Honestly, that's does sound paranoid. A short, balding, 50-something year old man is a chick magnet? Doubtful. 

Him "acting weird" with these friends, are you sure that's not him being a creep? I _highly _doubt your husband is just innocently going through life while women throw themselves at him. 

It's not healthy or normal for you to have this sort of worry on a daily basis.


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## Beach123

Hmmmm - I’d be concerned on so many levels…
He’s a liar even when you see the evidence
He’s paying attention when a woman is a viable/potential candidate for consideration

No trust. No way to make it a happy union.
What do YOU plan to do? Just nothing?


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## statuscheck

jlg07 said:


> Welcome to TAM -- sorry that you are having these issues with your H. HE is the one who has to enforce the boundaries that are acceptable to you and your marriage -- and he sounds like he really is NOT doing that.
> Have you gone to any Marriage counseling (MC)???


Yes you're precisely right re boundaries! Its always been his biggest weakness (besides maybe women too). With MIL, friends, everyone. He's a people-pleasing type. I'm just beginning counseling and will then bring him in too. He has not wanted to over the years but we recently hit the bottom and discussed divorce and he _said_ he'd try counseling. He swears he loves me and wants nothing other than to stay together; that he loves/wants no on else; etc etc. 
I worry that it's not me he wants as much as our arrangement -- I make him look good and take excellent care of him and have been oblivious -- he has it all.


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## statuscheck

Beach123 said:


> Hmmmm - I’d be concerned on so many levels…
> He’s a liar even when you see the evidence
> He’s paying attention when a woman is a viable/potential candidate for consideration
> 
> No trust. No way to make it a happy union.
> What do YOU plan to do? Just nothing?


I hear you. I have an appt with a lawyer to find out my options. I would actually love a divorce but hadn't planned for this and do not have my own means after being a stay at home parent, although getting my MS now and have decent, but part time job. Do not want to move our teenager. Husband would have to agree for me to stay in house with teenager and he will likely not do that. I wish he's simply fall madly in love with someone else so going to live with her would make him the most happy. He is absolutely maddeningly snug and happy in our home.


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## statuscheck

bobert said:


> Honestly, that's does sound paranoid. A short, balding, 50-something year old man is a chick magnet? Doubtful.
> 
> Him "acting weird" with these friends, are you sure that's not him being a creep? I _highly _doubt your husband is just innocently going through life while women throw themselves at him.
> 
> It's not healthy or normal for you to have this sort of worry on a daily basis.


yes he says that, "Right, women are throwing themselves at me! I'm so good looking haha."
He thinks I'm paranoid from early childhood trust issues.
This is why I've questioned myself for 27 years. But is he a chick magnet? I don't know! He somehow is! One time at our friends' house (their kids were teens at the time) the eldest daughter - a gorgeous girl of then 17 - stood about 8 feet from him (all parents and others present) and slowly tongued and licked suggestively a long lollipop (from an easter egg hunt). He stared at her smiling. I kept waiting for the parents to get embarassed and say something! They didn't. She just stared him down and kept sucking and licking. It was disgusting. No one wanted to admit what was going on b/c she was just a girl. HE should have stood up and walked away. I finally said, "Ok,, ok, that's enough!" and stood between them. Everyone acted like this was all innocent silliness. But yet another example of how females behave with him. I suspect he does something intentional, learned and effective to trigger their interest. 
But yes I do also keep open the idea I could be paranoid or imagining. I try to stay opened minded and self-aware. 
Do things like this happen with everyone and maybe I just notice too much?


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## statuscheck

Mr.Married said:


> Has your husband ever said you were making false accusations t words him or said that you are saying things that are untrue about him? Has he ever been the one initiating these occurrences?


He always says I'm making false accusations. He's never admitted to instigating. He's admitted a few times when the evidence is overwhelming to foolishly going alone with someone else's attentions/advances. In these cases he said, "well it was your friend/cousin/niece/and I didn't want to be rude! What was I supposed to do?"


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## statuscheck

statuscheck said:


> He always says I'm making false accusations. He's never admitted to instigating. He's admitted a few times when the evidence is overwhelming to foolishly going alone with someone else's attentions/advances. In these cases he said, "well it was your friend/cousin/niece/and I didn't want to be rude! What was I supposed to do?"


*going along


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## bobert

statuscheck said:


> I hear you. I have an appt with a lawyer to find out my options. I would actually love a divorce but hadn't planned for this and do not have my own means after being a stay at home parent, although getting my MS now and have decent, but part time job. Do not want to move our teenager. Husband would have to agree for me to stay in house with teenager and he will likely not do that. I wish he's simply fall madly in love with someone else so going to live with her would make him the most happy. He is absolutely maddeningly snug and happy in our home.


So he's a meal ticket? You don't want to be with him and you wish he'd fall in love with someone else and just leave, so long as he keeps paying your bills and puts a roof over your head?


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## uwe.blab

bobert said:


> Honestly, that's does sound paranoid. A short, balding, 50-something year old man is a chick magnet? Doubtful.
> 
> Him "acting weird" with these friends, are you sure that's not him being a creep? I _highly _doubt your husband is just innocently going through life while women throw themselves at him.
> 
> It's not healthy or normal for you to have this sort of worry on a daily basis.


yeah so.....from your post it sounds like you lost friends not because your husband is so attractive but that he is so inappropriate-- is that more accurate?


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## statuscheck

bobert said:


> So he's a meal ticket? You don't want to be with him and you wish he'd fall in love with someone else and just leave, so long as he keeps paying your bills and puts a roof over your head?


Hmmm. 
I feel that's quite a leap you've made! Goodness!
I've been best friends with this person all of my formative years and most of my life. We share much history and unusual things in common. We have mutual friends going back decades. We've traveled the world together and lived in foreign countries and volunteered together and raised wonderful kids together. 
Meal ticket -- yikes. 
I won't go into my financial and other contributions to the household/relationship. They're significant. All I said was that I had not planned on making my own way in the world as we'd planned our days and future together. We've always planned out our life together, as a unit. 
In fact I will always love him and be his friend. If he's a philanderer though I simply want out of the daily planning and living.


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## bobert

statuscheck said:


> Hmmm.
> I feel that's quite a leap you've made! Goodness!
> I've been best friends with this person all of my formative years and most of my life. We share much history and unusual things in common. We have mutual friends going back decades. We've traveled the world together and lived in foreign countries and volunteered together and raised wonderful kids together.
> Meal ticket -- yikes.
> I won't go into my financial and other contributions to the household/relationship. They're significant. All I said was that I had not planned on making my own way in the world as we'd planned our days and future together. We've always planned out our life together, as a unit.
> In fact I will always love him and be his friend. If he's a philanderer though I simply want out of the daily planning and living.


None of that negates the fact that you'd love to divorce and would love it if he fell in love with someone else, but you can't because you can't support yourself. 

That's not love.


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## statuscheck

uwe.blab said:


> yeah so.....from your post it sounds like you lost friends not because your husband is so attractive but that he is so inappropriate-- is that more accurate?


yes maybe -- I don't really know. 
That's why I'm asking total strangers what they think! 
So thank you  everyone for trying to understand and weigh in...

But I'm telling ya'll - women do find him attractive. He does have very handsome features and a nice voice and I guess a sophisticated air about him? That sounds cheezy but he is worldly and multilingual and has a nice build. But yes he's been inappropriate -- absolutely. So we've talked about his social skills - which he admits are awkward. He's an introvert. Growing up he was always the most playful person and everyone loved him for this. He was very popular. Maybe he thinks he's just being playful but now it's slipped into something more (so to speak) because he seems to tap into women's vulnerabilities and neediness. 
Then I feel sorry for the women because perhaps he's become very manipulative too with practice. Perhaps they imagine they can have something from him he's not planning to give? It's gross how women seem to think they've snagged him.
There have been many instances of


bobert said:


> None of that negates the fact that you'd love to divorce and would love it if he fell in love with someone else, but you can't because you can't support yourself.
> 
> That's not love.


you're zeroed in on that so I'll consider your point, but I think we don't share the same view of love. I love him very much. None of this is easy. It's terribly painful. And much more multifaceted and complex than money. I can make it sound easy, which I'm doing so I don't lapse into a dangerous mental health state.


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## DownByTheRiver

Sorry your man is a swivelhead. He doesn't sound very attractive, to be honest, losing hair, short. But I guess it depends on the crowd you're playing to.

Could you leave and be on your own, or would you rather just stay as things are now? You say he's your SO, so wouldn't be much hassle to leave if that seemed best.


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## statuscheck

statuscheck said:


> yes maybe -- I don't really know.
> That's why I'm asking total strangers what they think!
> So thank you  everyone for trying to understand and weigh in...
> 
> But I'm telling ya'll - women do find him attractive. He does have very handsome features and a nice voice and I guess a sophisticated air about him? That sounds cheezy but he is worldly and multilingual and has a nice build. But yes he's been inappropriate -- absolutely. So we've talked about his social skills - which he admits are awkward. He's an introvert. Growing up he was always the most playful person and everyone loved him for this. He was very popular. Maybe he thinks he's just being playful but now it's slipped into something more (so to speak) because he seems to tap into women's vulnerabilities and neediness.
> Then I feel sorry for the women because perhaps he's become very manipulative too with practice. Perhaps they imagine they can have something from him he's not planning to give? It's gross how women seem to think they've snagged him.
> There have been many instances of
> 
> you're zeroed in on that so I'll consider your point, but I think we don't share the same view of love. I love him very much. None of this is easy. It's terribly painful. And much more multifaceted and complex than money. I can make it sound easy, which I'm doing so I don't lapse into a dangerous mental health state.





statuscheck said:


> Hi TAM -- I'm here for others' stories and to read opinions of my situation, which I realize is far from unique. So...
> How do we tell if our SO of 27 years 1. simply loves the thrill and ego boost of flirting; 2. is somehow outrageously attractive to amorous women (in other words does _nothing_ to encourage them); 3. is a philanderer who is so accustomed to picking up women he's getting sloppy and spouse is finally having to see/accept it.
> 
> about him: He was supposedly in love with me our entire growing up time before we dated; he's professionally successful; Phd; nice looking; on the shorter side; losing hair; other women seem to swoon over him; highly intelligent; awkward social skills; grew up around wildly successful men who all cheated shamelessly; we've known each other since 6th grade but dated after college.
> 
> about me: I must be decent looking - men aren't wild over me but I get respectful looks; had gained weight probably from lack of sex but now am back in shape (still mostly without sex); kind and friendly; resuming career work after taking time out of workforce to parent; working on masters degree; described as "sweet".
> 
> I've always puzzled over all the ruined female relationships/friendships I've had where the common denominator was husband "acting weird" with them and them then becoming weird and awkward towards me. It's to the point that I have to warn him before we go to a party or event, to please don't do anything to "accidentally" attract female flirters. Are some men that appealing? That they can do nothing but dote on their SO but women are still drawn helplessly to them like moths to a flame? Could he be that innocent and are women that sex-starved and aggressive? This is where I want to begin with ya'lls opinions. THANK YOU
> 
> p.s. most recent example: at parent gathering for our teenager's hobby. I was facing my husband across a hallway. A slutty looking mom who'd been lingering near us earlier was also on my side so could see him from the same vantage point, asked the question of the organizers, "Is it ok for my son to just walk here? You see, I just live right across the street...." I decided this is a sensible question but then my alarm bells went off. And holy **** I realized she may have said that to signal to interested dads that yes she just lives across the street while they have two hours to kill waiting for their kids to finish up with rehearsals. Right? Or am I just paranoid? Welcome to my daily inner dialog/dilemma/torment.
> 
> So my eyes flash to husband who no longer looked like a bored detached parent. He's suddenly smiling a smug smile of obvious warmth, head tilted, eyes scanning her body. I watch his eyes; they seem to settle and squint while scanning her mid-section, then perhaps glance back up to her face and down again. I wanted to vomit. Then his eyes jump to me and he realizes I can see him! His squinches up his face and suddenly looks intensely serious and intent on hearing the organizer again, in an upright posture (and yes he looked worried now). Later he tells me he has no idea what I'm talking about and doesn't remember any person of her description asking that question or being present. Swears he does not know at all what I'm talking about and it's as though we were at two different events.





DownByTheRiver said:


> Sorry your man is a swivelhead. He doesn't sound very attractive, to be honest, losing hair, short. But I guess it depends on the crowd you're playing to.
> 
> Could you leave and be on your own, or would you rather just stay as things are now? You say he's your SO, so wouldn't be much hassle to leave if that seemed best.


We've been married and together for over half my life and we know each other's lives/families/friends so I can't imagine being on my own, but how do you stay with someone doing these things? I thought it was his work, but part of him always feels opaque or inaccessable in spite of our common bonds. It's frustrating. It affects our intimacy. Or at least that's what I thought affected our intimacy. Now I'm realizing our lackluster sex life might be all because he's having it elsewhere, all this time. I thought he just wasn't really into sex. But maybe he actually is! And has been. With others! Then I can't stay married to him. Not for my physical or mental health. So many layers and dilemma.


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## DownByTheRiver

statuscheck said:


> We've been married and together for over half my life and we know each other's lives/families/friends so I can't imagine being on my own, but how do you stay with someone doing these things? I thought it was his work, but part of him always feels opaque or inaccessable in spite of our common bonds. It's frustrating. It affects our intimacy. Or at least that's what I thought affected our intimacy. Now I'm realizing our lackluster sex life might be all because he's having it elsewhere, all this time. I thought he just wasn't really into sex. But maybe he actually is! And has been. With others! Then I can't stay married to him. Not for my physical or mental health. So many layers and dilemma.


I feel bad for you. He may be restless. He probably doesn't actually want to lose you either, but might just prefer if he had you and whoever else he can attract or something like that. It's not uncommon. That would cause bad feelings for most, though. You have a long relationship. Only you and he can decide.


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## statuscheck

Are there any long-time members here familiar with any earlier threads on a similar situation, that they recommend? Thanks so much


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## statuscheck

DownByTheRiver said:


> I feel bad for you. He may be restless. He probably doesn't actually want to lose you either, but might just prefer if he had you and whoever else he can attract or something like that. It's not uncommon. That would cause bad feelings for most, though. You have a long relationship. Only you and he can decide.


yes I think you're right. He seems to want me and them - whatever them means - flirting/sex/maybe someday I'll find out for sure. He may wait to reveal this stuff when I'm much past my appeal to other men and more past my ability to find a new fulfilling life without him.
He knows I am 100% monogamous. He has no questions there. But he feels he has some right to play. He also knows, from knowing me most of my life, that I am incredibly loyal. 
There was something to how we grew up. I felt the boys in our neighborhood felt there were women you marry and women you ____. I swore I wouldn't marry any guy I grew up with. He seemed different though and we both have foreign relatives so I thought we transcended parochial norms. Perhaps not in his case.


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## Rus47

statuscheck said:


> other women seem to swoon over him


You have been with him 27 years and traveled the globe with him. Why do you think women "swoon" over him? Because he has a friendly nature? You wrote he was well liked as a kid. A person with an outgoing friendly, happy demeanor attracts other people. It isn't that the friendly person is "doing" anything to manipulate people, others are drawn to them. How do men respond when he is around? Does he have a lot of friends, a wide social group.

My wife is a person who never met a stranger. She focuses on meeting and talking with people. I always tell her she ought to run for public office, she would also make a fantastic salesperson. Maybe your husband has that personality.



statuscheck said:


> Swears he does not know at all what I'm talking about and it's as though we were at two different events.


It is possible he isn't seeing things in the same way you see them.



statuscheck said:


> If he's a philanderer


Is he? Has he cheated on you emotionally or physically? Have you caught him with someone else? A philanderer is someone who chases skirts always and often.



statuscheck said:


> had gained weight probably *from lack of sex* but now am back in shape (still mostly *without sex*)


What is this about? Has he neglected his husbandly duties?



statuscheck said:


> I would actually love a divorce





statuscheck said:


> I wish he's simply fall madly in love with someone else


Both of these are rather inconsistent with "I love him". It sounds like you have a lot of resentment and just want to get rid of him. That is easily done. Go find your favorite attorney and file. Depending on where you live, you can be single in less than 12 months. 

My impression is there are some big boulders under the water of your marriage that you haven't exposed in this thread yet.


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## DownByTheRiver

statuscheck said:


> yes I think you're right. He seems to want me and them - whatever them means - flirting/sex/maybe someday I'll find out for sure. He may wait to reveal this stuff when I'm much past my appeal to other men and more past my ability to find a new fulfilling life without him.
> He knows I am 100% monogamous. He has no questions there. But he feels he has some right to play. He also knows, from knowing me most of my life, that I am incredibly loyal.
> There was something to how we grew up. I felt the boys in our neighborhood felt there were women you marry and women you ____. I swore I wouldn't marry any guy I grew up with. He seemed different though and we both have foreign relatives so I thought we transcended parochial norms. Perhaps not in his case.


I hope you get clarity soon.


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## ccpowerslave

This sounded like you were reading my life’s story. Everywhere I go I’m like the pied piper of floozies…

Well maybe not 🤣


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## jlg07

statuscheck said:


> He's an introvert. Growing up he was always the most playful person and everyone loved him for this. He was very popular.


This doesn't sound AT ALL like an introvert. He sounds like someone who needs constant validation that HE is important/good looking, etc...


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## statuscheck

Rus47 said:


> You have been with him 27 years and traveled the globe with him. Why do you think women "swoon" over him? Because he has a friendly nature? You wrote he was well liked as a kid. A person with an outgoing friendly, happy demeanor attracts other people. It isn't that the friendly person is "doing" anything to manipulate people, others are drawn to them. How do men respond when he is around? Does he have a lot of friends, a wide social group.
> 
> My wife is a person who never met a stranger. She focuses on meeting and talking with people. I always tell her she ought to run for public office, she would also make a fantastic salesperson. Maybe your husband has that personality.
> 
> 
> It is possible he isn't seeing things in the same way you see them.
> 
> 
> Is he? Has he cheated on you emotionally or physically? Have you caught him with someone else? A philanderer is someone who chases skirts always and often.
> 
> 
> What is this about? Has he neglected his husbandly duties?
> 
> 
> 
> Both of these are rather inconsistent with "I love him". It sounds like you have a lot of resentment and just want to get rid of him. That is easily done. Go find your favorite attorney and file. Depending on where you live, you can be single in less than 12 months.
> 
> My impression is there are some big boulders under the water of your marriage that you haven't exposed in this thread yet.


yes has totally neglected his husbandly duties. Has been very difficult for me over the years. I even thought he was probably gay and encouraged him to talk to me about it. He assured me he's not gay. I couldn've sworn he was because he just does not seem interested in sex with me. I'm a passionate person and he knows that. So he knows he's witholding.
Since the "are you gay?" talk he seems to have amped up the flirting with women.
yes lots and lots of resentment towards him. 
No, I've never caught him but his work is an excellent cover so I may never know.
In our most recent argument, stemming from an incident where the young woman who now owns our neighborhood coffee shop, with whom he has flirted and she with him, started freaking out when she sees me. Acting very oddly. She watched me for I don't know how long one day while I sorted something out at Target. She was just staring at me and then was completely awkward when I called her out and said hello. Previously she and I have been super friendly, and I helped keep her shop open during Covid. So H and I argued about whether he knows why she's behaving this way. He said I have no proof. She used to beam when I came to her shop. I'd introduce people to her. Now she shrivels up and glares and stares at me. She refuses to talk to me and seems incredibly nervous.

I also haven't mentioned that he goes through dark bouts where he freezes me out and acts like I'm not worth listening to. He can be very undermining, in addition to these other things.
Yes he's incredibly likable. Most people like him very much. He's not an extrovert, but he is entertaining, interesting and has charisma. Only his family and I know his dark side. He can be mean, witholding (love, sex, communication) and rude. He's on excellent behavior in public and around more distant family and all friends.


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## Rus47

jlg07 said:


> This doesn't sound AT ALL like an introvert. He sounds like someone who needs constant validation that HE is important/good looking, etc...


Needs validation? Or receives it automatically. There plenty of people who naturally attract others. Those are the ones who end up wealthy and powerful. Her husband sounds like he was one of the popular kids in school.


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## statuscheck

jlg07 said:


> This doesn't sound AT ALL like an introvert. He sounds like someone who needs constant validation that HE is important/good looking, etc...


@jlg07 I feel you're on the most accurate track...and somehow see things most clearly. Thank you. He does need LOTS of affirmation, it's true. 
While I appreciate everyone's feedback and opinions, and i'm grateful so many have weighed in, and it's really helping me, you seem to see it!


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## statuscheck

Rus47 said:


> Needs validation? Or receives it automatically. There plenty of people who naturally attract others. Those are the ones who end up wealthy and powerful. Her husband sounds like he was one of the popular kids in school.


He was, but so was I. I'm more like your wife, @Rus47 
I'm friendly with everyone. I love people, much more than he does. He does attract others. So what are you thinking? These women are just attracted to him and he's not responsible for anything beyond that? Easy to imagine he's cheating because he's loved and admired? I have considered this. But he seems to encourage it all!!


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## Rus47

statuscheck said:


> Yes he's incredibly likable. Most people like him very much. He's not an extrovert, but he is entertaining, interesting and has charisma. Only his family and I know his dark side. He can be mean, witholding (love, sex, communication) and rude. He's on excellent behavior in public and around more distant family and all friends.


Ok. So he has a public persona and a private persona that are totally opposite. Manipulative? Treats family poorly but impresses those outside the family.

So given this and everything else you have written, why are you still with him after 27 years? You have put up with no sex life for decades? Why? Why would you spend one more minute of your one and only life this way? You don't have to wait and wish for some other woman to take him off of your hands. If he isn't interested in sex with a woman, that isn't going to happen.


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## statuscheck

ccpowerslave said:


> This sounded like you were reading my life’s story. Everywhere I go I’m like the pied piper of floozies…
> 
> Well maybe not 🤣


you're probably better off!


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## ccpowerslave

statuscheck said:


> you're probably better off!


True it keeps me out of trouble!

I hope you figure something out OP!


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## jlg07

statuscheck said:


> He was, but so was I. I'm more like your wife, @Rus47
> I'm friendly with everyone. I love people, much more than he does. He does attract others. So what are you thinking? These women are just attracted to him and he's not responsible for anything beyond that? Easy to imagine he's cheating because he's loved and admired? I have considered this. But he seems to encourage it all!!


Do you have access to his phone or emails? You MAY be able to see if he has anything pertaining to affairs..


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## statuscheck

jlg07 said:


> Do you have access to his phone or emails? You MAY be able to see if he has anything pertaining to affairs..





jlg07 said:


> Do you have access to his phone or emails? You MAY be able to see if he has anything pertaining to affairs..


 He has an encrypted thing for work. Has chat / video / everything. During Covid shutdowns I had a few opportunities to see incoming message previews on the app. A woman was writing to him saying she wanted to talk "soon" and it sounded borderline too intimate for work. It was enough that I did all the looking her up on the internet stuff and she remains on my radar as a possible person he could be seeing. I asked him about her and he explained she was applying for a job he left for which he needed to mentor a new person. He'd updated me that she did get that job, so they probably stay in touch on the job status. Her message previews sounded needy and too vulnerable for work though. At a minimum she may be interested in him, because these are highly educated well trained confident professional people who only need to communicate professionally to get work done and professional objectives accomplished. I had to use his computer one day to create a video for school and saw he had an email account with a weird/cutesy name. It included a nickname I have for him that he made up years ago. That hurt! I said the account name out loud and mocked it, to expose it, because I suspected it was for dating/etc, but didn't freak out. I didn't want him to get defensive because that's when he rallies and can be the most convincing. I thought if I were cool and collected he might reveal something. He said he had to create a random email address to communicate with a foreign government re. an inheritance matter. That still makes no sense. He also pronounced to me recently that he deleted it because he didn't need it since it was only to deal with that one family matter (which btw isn't resolved, so why delete the email account?)


----------



## statuscheck

statuscheck said:


> He has an encrypted thing for work. Has chat / video / everything. During Covid shutdowns I had a few opportunities to see incoming message previews on the app. A woman was writing to him saying she wanted to talk "soon" and it sounded borderline too intimate for work. It was enough that I did all the looking her up on the internet stuff and she remains on my radar as a possible person he could be seeing. I asked him about her and he explained she was applying for a job he left for which he needed to mentor a new person. He'd updated me that she did get that job, so they probably stay in touch on the job status. Her message previews sounded needy and too vulnerable for work though. At a minimum she may be interested in him, because these are highly educated well trained confident professional people who only need to communicate professionally to get work done and professional objectives accomplished. I had to use his computer one day to create a video for school and saw he had an email account with a weird/cutesy name. It included a nickname I have for him that he made up years ago. That hurt! I said the account name out loud and mocked it, to expose it, because I suspected it was for dating/etc, but didn't freak out. I didn't want him to get defensive because that's when he rallies and can be the most convincing. I thought if I were cool and collected he might reveal something. He said he had to create a random email address to communicate with a foreign government re. an inheritance matter. That still makes no sense. He also pronounced to me recently that he deleted it because he didn't need it since it was only to deal with that one family matter (which btw isn't resolved, so why delete the email account?)


other than these examples I've seen nothing. He is very tech savvy.


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## Melinda82

It sounds to me like you're a very committed wife who doesn't want to end her marriage without hard evidence that her husband is cheating or doing some other unforgivable behavior. You have suspicions, but no proof. 

He sounds like a flirt at least. Women don't flock to men who don't encourage them. Your husband must be encouraging them. That time you describe seeing your husband checking out a woman who had said she lived across the street--that's probably how he acts with women ALL the time when you're not around. I would NOT be okay if my husband acted that way ONCE. But if that's how your husband is all the time, that's pretty good grounds to leave in and of itself. 

But is it more than that? Is he a cheater, too? There's a very good chance. It sounds like you suspect him and are trying to find out. Do a google search on how to catch a cheater. There are tons of things you can try--phone bills, bank statements, VAR, GPS tracker, private investigator, etc. Just don't give him any indications that you're doubting him or looking through things or he'll work hard to cover things up. (Oh, and I would go right up to the coffee shop woman and ask her why she was behaving oddly and if it was anything my husband had done to offend her? Is there anyone else you could ask about your husband's behavior when you're not around? Someone who won't report back to him, of course.)

Even if he's not cheating, he sounds like a pretty lousy husband. How often is he "mean, withholding, and rude?" Everyone has their grouchy days. But if he is like this a lot, you deserve to be treated better. You don't have to wait for some other woman to "steal" your husband from you, so that you can escape this marriage. You can free yourself!


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## statuscheck

Melinda82 said:


> It sounds to me like you're a very committed wife who doesn't want to end her marriage without hard evidence that her husband is cheating or doing some other unforgivable behavior. You have suspicions, but no proof.
> 
> He sounds like a flirt at least. Women don't flock to men who don't encourage them. Your husband must be encouraging them. That time you describe seeing your husband checking out a woman who had said she lived across the street--that's probably how he acts with women ALL the time when you're not around. I would NOT be okay if my husband acted that way ONCE. But if that's how your husband is all the time, that's pretty good grounds to leave in and of itself.
> 
> But is it more than that? Is he a cheater, too? There's a very good chance. It sounds like you suspect him and are trying to find out. Do a google search on how to catch a cheater. There are tons of things you can try--phone bills, bank statements, VAR, GPS tracker, private investigator, etc. Just don't give him any indications that you're doubting him or looking through things or he'll work hard to cover things up. (Oh, and I would go right up to the coffee shop woman and ask her why she was behaving oddly and if it was anything my husband had done to offend her? Is there anyone else you could ask about your husband's behavior when you're not around? Someone who won't report back to him, of course.)
> 
> Even if he's not cheating, he sounds like a pretty lousy husband. How often is he "mean, withholding, and rude?" Everyone has their grouchy days. But if he is like this a lot, you deserve to be treated better. You don't have to wait for some other woman to "steal" your husband from you, so that you can escape this marriage. You can free yourself!


@Melinda82 you've got it. Yes this is the best summary of it all. He's steady, charming, can be sweet, always intelligent, and as evidenced by his history of friendships and admirers, and that's what I hang on to. I'm doing that now too. Going back to a few trusted people to get their reactions to things that have happened where they were present, or even the focus. There's not a lot I can do tracking wise for different reasons but I did get a landairsea I'll be able to use some. We share an AppleID so he can if he wants see all my app downloads. He's away on business now but when he returns we're going to go to phone carrier and end that arrangement. I think you're right too that he's doing this with women when I'm not around. Or also icky -- in front of me to mess with my head. Either and both are repulsive. 

I mentioned having him taken away from me, as though I have no agency, because that would be the neatest, tidiest way forward. If I just leave him or kick him out, it becomes a he said, she said with our family and friends......Why did statuscheck leave him? Is she seeing someone? Poor guy!.... etc etc I'm afraid people - and he - will create their own narratives, 
Thank you!!!


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## uwe.blab

When you described what happened with the coffee shop woman--- that helped me understand what you meant with women in the past who were once friends, or friendly, with you suddenly becoming awkward and disappearing from your life. As if they had slept with your husband or even just heavy flirting, and now do not feel comfortable around you....

That makes me wonder what he may have said about you (in addition to the possible sexual or emotional connection between him and these women). As in, does he tell them your awful to justify his actions? This is all speculation but I can see why your mind goes there...


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## DownByTheRiver

jlg07 said:


> This doesn't sound AT ALL like an introvert. He sounds like someone who needs constant validation that HE is important/good looking, etc...


But that can be problematic in itself because it usually means they're pretty self-absorbed. And I think they're also high risk for cheating to get that validation.


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## MichelleMyBelle

statuscheck said:


> yes has totally neglected his husbandly duties. Has been very difficult for me over the years. I even thought he was probably gay and encouraged him to talk to me about it. He assured me he's not gay. I couldn've sworn he was because he just does not seem interested in sex with me. I'm a passionate person and he knows that. So he knows he's witholding.
> Since the "are you gay?" talk he seems to have amped up the flirting with women.
> yes lots and lots of resentment towards him.
> No, I've never caught him but his work is an excellent cover so I may never know.
> In our most recent argument, stemming from an incident where the young woman who now owns our neighborhood coffee shop, with whom he has flirted and she with him, started freaking out when she sees me. Acting very oddly. She watched me for I don't know how long one day while I sorted something out at Target. She was just staring at me and then was completely awkward when I called her out and said hello. Previously she and I have been super friendly, and I helped keep her shop open during Covid. So H and I argued about whether he knows why she's behaving this way. He said I have no proof. She used to beam when I came to her shop. I'd introduce people to her. Now she shrivels up and glares and stares at me. She refuses to talk to me and seems incredibly nervous.
> 
> I also haven't mentioned that he goes through dark bouts where he freezes me out and acts like I'm not worth listening to. He can be very undermining, in addition to these other things.
> Yes he's incredibly likable. Most people like him very much. He's not an extrovert, but he is entertaining, interesting and has charisma. Only his family and I know his dark side. He can be mean, witholding (love, sex, communication) and rude. He's on excellent behavior in public and around more distant family and all friends.


Wow, all of this sounds bad. His behavior, the way that girl acts around you, and this..."he's on excellent behavior in public and around more distant family and all friends".

If he treats you differently in public than he does in private, that doesn't sound good. Not saying it's proof of anything...but it doesn't sound healthy.


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## MichelleMyBelle

uwe.blab said:


> When you described what happened with the coffee shop woman--- that helped me understand what you meant with women in the past who were once friends, or friendly, with you suddenly becoming awkward and disappearing from your life. As if they had slept with your husband or even just heavy flirting, and now do not feel comfortable around you....
> 
> That makes me wonder what he may have said about you (in addition to the possible sexual or emotional connection between him and these women). As in, does he tell them your awful to justify his actions? This is all speculation but I can see why your mind goes there...


I agree. Sometimes their body language/behavior is what gives it away. Or if another woman is hostile to you in his presence (but you've never done anything to her).


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## MichelleMyBelle

statuscheck said:


> He was, but so was I. I'm more like your wife, @Rus47
> I'm friendly with everyone. I love people, much more than he does. He does attract others. So what are you thinking? These women are just attracted to him and he's not responsible for anything beyond that? Easy to imagine he's cheating because he's loved and admired? I have considered this. But he seems to encourage it all!!


Hi Status Check...maybe there's friendly (the innocent kind where someone just has a great personality) and then there's "friendly" (the not so innocent kind, with ulterior motives).

Which type do you think your husband is? Because I've met both types. A person can be friendly and have others assume they are flirting, but they are not.
But there are also people who seek out attention (in a bad way) and then claim they are just being "friendly". So which one do you think he is?


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## statuscheck

DownByTheRiver said:


> But that can be problematic in itself because it usually means they're pretty self-absorbed. And I think they're also high risk for cheating to get that validation.


yes you're right I agree


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## statuscheck

MichelleMyBelle said:


> Wow, all of this sounds bad. His behavior, the way that girl acts around you, and this..."he's on excellent behavior in public and around more distant family and all friends".
> 
> If he treats you differently in public than he does in private, that doesn't sound good. Not saying it's proof of anything...but it doesn't sound healthy.


I should add that he treats our kids wonderfully - is a great dad other than poorly modeling how to handle love/marriage/attraction etc. So other than this marriage bond-busting behavior he doesn't have the other vices - doesn't drink much, no drugs, no gambling (although this other behavior is risk-taking). 

He is pleasant and supportive with me much of the time at home. He wants to do things with me - hiking, biking, lunch dates etc (as said before though hardly ever sex). Asks me about my day etc. Problems solves with my work/school situations (as I do for him). 

But he slips into dark modes where he's simply nasty and undermining. I've wondered if these are times he's feeling emotionally connected to someone else. That's what it feels like. His last one lasted a long time - 2.5 weeks - when our oldest was leaving for college and we were all sad to say goodbye and needed each other for support. He did not talk to me for half of this time. Literally walked out of the room if I entered it. Because I told him to stop patronizing me and being condescending. It was building up and I snapped- and did tell him to stop that behavior. That's when he stopped talking to me. This was his worst bout ever and he was awful. And he seemed torn and tormented. This is also when the barista/coffee shop owner (such a cliche!!! how embarassing) started her hostile behavior. 

I'll add that he has a high profile policy role (community volunteer) where we live. It would be extremely risky for him to get involved with someone in our small community like that b/c word would get around so fast and people would love to know our unified front has such cracks in the foundation. Still many of these flirtations are local. So then I wonder if he has a mental health issue to risk his reputation like that (not to mention his sons') but maybe such self-absorbed people don't think about that? 

Being warm and super friendly is natural for him but tires him out (introvert). So at home he's more natural, including showing manners and grumpiness he would never show strangers or acquaintances. Yes that's true. And it's true the flirting (like the ex. I gave re. the woman who said she lives across the street from where the kids practice for 2 hours) also seems natural and very shockingly sickeningly comfortable to him.


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## statuscheck

MichelleMyBelle said:


> Hi Status Check...maybe there's friendly (the innocent kind where someone just has a great personality) and then there's "friendly" (the not so innocent kind, with ulterior motives).
> 
> Which type do you think your husband is? Because I've met both types. A person can be friendly and have others assume they are flirting, but they are not.
> But there are also people who seek out attention (in a bad way) and then claim they are just being "friendly". So which one do you think he is?


well @MichelleMyBelle I've told myself all these years its the former. @jlg07 was spot on when they said he has boundary issues. I've always reasoned w/ myself that his easy-going social presence combined with boundary (lack thereof) issues makes him a prime target. I've focused on telling him to be aware of being a target b/c of this and he's sworn up and down over all the yrs that he is very clear with everyone he's happily married and taken (this is what he tells me). The creepy behavior I catch glimpses of though and am learning to see shows me he's fully employing the lack of boundaries to manipulate, lead on and entice.

I'd say I'm the friendly type that some people could wonder if it's flirting, but my husband has never in 27 yrs of marriage accused me of flirting and in fact says the opposite, that I'm just warm and friendly and that's pleasant.


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## DownByTheRiver

statuscheck said:


> I should add that he treats our kids wonderfully - is a great dad other than poorly modeling how to handle love/marriage/attraction etc. So other than this marriage bond-busting behavior he doesn't have the other vices - doesn't drink much, no drugs, no gambling (although this other behavior is risk-taking).
> 
> He is pleasant and supportive with me much of the time at home. He wants to do things with me - hiking, biking, lunch dates etc (as said before though hardly ever sex). Asks me about my day etc. Problems solves with my work/school situations (as I do for him).
> 
> But he slips into dark modes where he's simply nasty and undermining. I've wondered if these are times he's feeling emotionally connected to someone else. That's what it feels like. His last one lasted a long time - 2.5 weeks - when our oldest was leaving for college and we were all sad to say goodbye and needed each other for support. He did not talk to me for half of this time. Literally walked out of the room if I entered it. Because I told him to stop patronizing me and being condescending. It was building up and I snapped- and did tell him to stop that behavior. That's when he stopped talking to me. This was his worst bout ever and he was awful. And he seemed torn and tormented. This is also when the barista/coffee shop owner (such a cliche!!! how embarassing) started her hostile behavior.
> 
> I'll add that he has a high profile policy role (community volunteer) where we live. It would be extremely risky for him to get involved with someone in our small community like that b/c word would get around so fast and people would love to know our unified front has such cracks in the foundation. Still many of these flirtations are local. So then I wonder if he has a mental health issue to risk his reputation like that (not to mention his sons') but maybe such self-absorbed people don't think about that?
> 
> Being warm and super friendly is natural for him but tires him out (introvert). So at home he's more natural, including showing manners and grumpiness he would never show strangers or acquaintances. Yes that's true. And it's true the flirting (like the ex. I gave re. the woman who said she lives across the street from where the kids practice for 2 hours) also seems natural and very shockingly sickeningly comfortable to him.


He could have some kind of mood disorder like bipolar or something.


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## statuscheck

Question: is it a common type of cheater who plays the victim? So they claim they didn't encourage it but the other person through themself on the cheater? This would be what my husband is telling himself. 
When confronting my husband as I did recently he said "I don't like the person you're describing." He will also say "That is not me!" 
So he's clearly rationalizing his behavior and flirting somehow. These women need him (not the other way around), etc. Wow that would be quite a narccisist... I wonder what all will come out with counseling. Yikes


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## Rus47

statuscheck said:


> He is pleasant and supportive with me much of the time at home. He wants to do things with me - hiking, biking, lunch dates etc (as said before though hardly ever sex). Asks me about my day etc. Problems solves with my work/school situations (as I do for him).


So he would be a pretty good roommate. Husband, not so much. I have to say IMO if he were draining his tank elsewhere you would know. He would be after you sometime, at least between conquests. Maybe he enjoys the attention from strange women. But he is like dog chasing a car, would have no idea what to do with it if he caught one.


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## Openminded

People like him — and I was engaged to one — may believe what they say. Whether they actually do believe it or not they absolutely want you to. They don’t stop because they see no reason to. It’s who they are. I ended my engagement and I’m very glad I did. My opinion? He’s playing you and you’ll get burned one day.


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## MichelleMyBelle

statuscheck said:


> I should add that he treats our kids wonderfully - is a great dad other than poorly modeling how to handle love/marriage/attraction etc. So other than this marriage bond-busting behavior he doesn't have the other vices - doesn't drink much, no drugs, no gambling (although this other behavior is risk-taking).
> 
> He is pleasant and supportive with me much of the time at home. He wants to do things with me - hiking, biking, lunch dates etc (as said before though hardly ever sex). Asks me about my day etc. Problems solves with my work/school situations (as I do for him).
> 
> But he slips into dark modes where he's simply nasty and undermining. I've wondered if these are times he's feeling emotionally connected to someone else. That's what it feels like. His last one lasted a long time - 2.5 weeks - when our oldest was leaving for college and we were all sad to say goodbye and needed each other for support. He did not talk to me for half of this time. Literally walked out of the room if I entered it. Because I told him to stop patronizing me and being condescending. It was building up and I snapped- and did tell him to stop that behavior. That's when he stopped talking to me. This was his worst bout ever and he was awful. And he seemed torn and tormented. This is also when the barista/coffee shop owner (such a cliche!!! how embarassing) started her hostile behavior.
> 
> I'll add that he has a high profile policy role (community volunteer) where we live. It would be extremely risky for him to get involved with someone in our small community like that b/c word would get around so fast and people would love to know our unified front has such cracks in the foundation. Still many of these flirtations are local. So then I wonder if he has a mental health issue to risk his reputation like that (not to mention his sons') but maybe such self-absorbed people don't think about that?
> 
> Being warm and super friendly is natural for him but tires him out (introvert). So at home he's more natural, including showing manners and grumpiness he would never show strangers or acquaintances. Yes that's true. And it's true the flirting (like the ex. I gave re. the woman who said she lives across the street from where the kids practice for 2 hours) also seems natural and very shockingly sickeningly comfortable to him.


It's good to hear that he is a good father to the kids. That is one positive thing. And you say he enjoys spending time with you in other ways, but the sex life isn't so hot.
I went through something like that myself a few years ago (thankfully it changed). OK...so you've named some positive aspects of your marriage. Maybe not all is lost. 

My husband often gives me the silent treatment lately too, but he isn't nasty about it. He simply shuts down and acts weird. 
And like you, sometimes I wonder if somebody else may be the cause of this behavior. Some people can't talk about feelings in a healthy way...so they resort to doing that. I know it hurts, but try not to react when this happens. That might make matters worse. 

The barista sounds like a b*tch, to be frank. If you've never said or done anything bad to her, she shouldn't be treating you that way. 
I have met those types before...they are "friendly" to your husband, not so nice to you. 

As to his position in your community, it sounds like he feels the need to uphold an image to impress others, but acts very different at home. 
As an introvert myself, it drains me sometimes to be friendly and chatty. I can do it to a point, but it's not really my style, you know? 
So without knowing your husband, I can't say what his deal might be. But some of what you say does sound concerning, most definitely. 
Keep your eyes open.


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## MichelleMyBelle

statuscheck said:


> well @MichelleMyBelle I've told myself all these years its the former. @jlg07 was spot on when they said he has boundary issues. I've always reasoned w/ myself that his easy-going social presence combined with boundary (lack thereof) issues makes him a prime target. I've focused on telling him to be aware of being a target b/c of this and he's sworn up and down over all the yrs that he is very clear with everyone he's happily married and taken (this is what he tells me). The creepy behavior I catch glimpses of though and am learning to see shows me he's fully employing the lack of boundaries to manipulate, lead on and entice.
> 
> I'd say I'm the friendly type that some people could wonder if it's flirting, but my husband has never in 27 yrs of marriage accused me of flirting and in fact says the opposite, that I'm just warm and friendly and that's pleasant.


I'm new here too, and jlg07 seems to have pretty good advice in most of these situations! Your husband sounds similar to mine in some ways (except mine is tall and gorgeous with nice thick hair 😄).
But yes...a friendly social presence and boundaries that are not firmly in place can sometimes make a person more vulnerable to temptation. 

Your husband might be a charming fellow in his own way, but boundaries are key. People have mistaken my friendliness for flirting before ☹ so sadly...I'm not as friendly anymore.
I don't want it to be taken in a way that was not intended. It's one thing for him to be friendly and talk to people, no harm in that, but what you said about his interactions with women/girls (the teenager with the lollipop?) he needs to know that is not OK. 
That is unacceptable. 

And in his position in the community, he needs to watch it or somebody could accuse him of something. Boundaries are key.


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## MichelleMyBelle

statuscheck said:


> Question: is it a common type of cheater who plays the victim? So they claim they didn't encourage it but the other person through themself on the cheater? This would be what my husband is telling himself.
> When confronting my husband as I did recently he said "I don't like the person you're describing." He will also say "That is not me!"
> So he's clearly rationalizing his behavior and flirting somehow. These women need him (not the other way around), etc. Wow that would be quite a narccisist... I wonder what all will come out with counseling. Yikes


Sometimes, yes...it can be denial and blame-shifting. We can't say if your husband is a narcissist or not. But what you're describing is denial, it sounds like. Maybe trying to convince you that he doesn't flirt or act inappropriately when in fact he does.


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## statuscheck

Rus47 said:


> So he would be a pretty good roommate. Husband, not so much. I have to say IMO if he were draining his tank elsewhere you would know. He would be after you sometime, at least between conquests. Maybe he enjoys the attention from strange women. But he is like dog chasing a car, would have no idea what to do with it if he caught one.


Yes great roommate you've got it. Right - you don't mind if your roommate lies to you on occasion as you assume they have their own private reasons. not ok in a marriage...
He does suggest sex every once in awhile so then I think we're going to now have an active sex life. 
Then I'll initiate and he's not ready. Can't. Do. It. This causes the most alarm bells for me. He may have already had sex recently in these cases??


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## statuscheck

Openminded said:


> People like him — and I was engaged to one — may believe what they say. Whether they actually do believe it or not they absolutely want you to. They don’t stop because they see no reason to. It’s who they are. I ended my engagement and I’m very glad I did. My opinion? He’s playing you and you’ll get burned one day.


Do you know this is my fundamental worry. I'm happy to hear you ended the engagement!! I should have!
He did cheat on me while we dated - he was overseas and somehow I found out her name and country of origin and tracked her down! I actually called her and talked to her. She told me I was an absolute idiot and that we were too young to worry about this stuff. She told me to go have some fun and lighten up.... They'd had their fun and it seemed he was a blip on her radar and who the heck was I to question they're fun...she's Australian. 

right I could hem and haw all these years and he ultimately goes for the younger version of me, when I am not as attractive anymore to fully start over as well. I've also thought he's waiting until our parents are gone because there will then be less accountability re. his reputation. He and my dad have much respect for each other and I know my dad would feel someone ripped his heart out of his chest if he found out H were cheating on me and we divorce. It will truly break his heart and my husband knows this.


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## MichelleMyBelle

statuscheck said:


> Yes great roommate you've got it. Right - you don't mind if your roommate lies to you on occasion as you assume they have their own private reasons. not ok in a marriage...
> He does suggest sex every once in awhile so then I think we're going to now have an active sex life.
> Then I'll initiate and he's not ready. Can't. Do. It. This causes the most alarm bells for me. He may have already had sex recently in these cases??


I know your comment was in reply to Rus47, but I'll bite. It could be that he has had sex with somebody else, but it's also possible that maybe not. 
Does your husband view porn? That can sometimes be the problem. What about his health? There can also be conditions like ED or some other issue that can cause a decline in sex drive.


----------



## Rus47

statuscheck said:


> Then I'll initiate and he's not ready. Can't. Do. It. This causes the most alarm bells for me. *He may have already had sex recently in these cases??*


No. Doesnt sound like that at all. Was he ever in your long marriage (27 years) wearing you out? My impression is the answer is NO. I mean if he just drained his tank, he is more likely to avoid you until the tank fills back up than to suggest something he knows he wont be able to accomplish.

Is it conceivable that the pressure in the moment deflates him. He suggests sex so then you initiate? Why doesnt HE initiate?
If I waited for my wife to initiate we would never be together. Her version of initiating is to ask “wanna go lay down?”

This almost sounds like a man who psychologically isnt able to consummate. I mean you have kids, so he obviously managed to do the deed a few times. Maybe he really in his head wants to take care of his duties but isnt psychologically able.

Is it possible he was an abuse victim sometime in his early life.

Honestly this doesnt IMO sound anything like a husband who is cheating on you. Ok just read about his fling with Aussie woman so obviously he was able to perform when young in the service.


----------



## statuscheck

MichelleMyBelle said:


> I know your comment was in reply to Rus47, but I'll bite. It could be that he has had sex with somebody else, but it's also possible that maybe not.
> Does your husband view porn? That can sometimes be the problem. What about his health? There can also be conditions like ED or some other issue that can cause a decline in sex drive.


He may view porn I can't tell at all. I've asked and he says no. In desperation for even exposure to sex at some point in our marriage I watched some and told him about it, and he did not seem to know what to do with that. I told him why I was watching it and he really didn't react. If anything he thought it was weird, so I stopped talking about it. 

His health is great. Another reason he would want to stay married to me in this roommate/mother/caregiver/friend arrangement. I keep our family very healthy and am great cook. He loves my cooking. And it's healthy - i do a lot of research and careful shopping for our food and it is good. 

I can only compare him with my high school and college boyfriends b/c after that there's been noone else. These were all consuming sexual relationships - everything revolved around very passionate sex. I wondered how anyone can become a functioning adult thinking so much about and having so much sex. So toning that down in marriage seemed ok to me, because he was never that passionate with me or eager. so in that there's not been much change, I don't think its ED or his health. He may have been cheating all these years and just not be attracted to a wife -- maybe to him a wife is a functional thing, like having a mother around still. I know that sounds weird but its plausible and I've asked him and pressed this over the years. He swears he's incredibly attracted to me and thinks we have a fine sex life....🙃...


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## statuscheck

Rus47 said:


> No. Doesnt sound like that at all. Was he ever in your long marriage (27 years) wearing you out? My impression is the answer is NO.
> 
> Is it conceivable that the pressure in the moment deflates him. He suggests sex so then you initiate? Why doesnt HE initiate?
> If I waited for my wife to initiate we would never be together. Her version of initiating is to ask “wanna go lay down?”
> 
> This almost sounds like a man who psychologically isnt able to consummate. I mean you have kids, so he obviously managed to do the deed a few times. Maybe he really in his head wants to take care of his duties but isnt psychologically able.
> 
> Is it possible he was an abuse victim sometime in his early life.
> 
> Honestly this doesnt IMO sound anything like a husband who is cheating on you. Ok just read about his fling with Aussie woman so obviously he was able to perform when young in the service.


maybe in the very beginning only. Then we moved abroad for a short time and should have had an incredibly romantic time. Instead we argued and he got in the weird sort of entanglements I've described with women he was interviewing for his work projects. In one case I was supposed to begin volunteering with one of them (they had great need for people to work with kids and I was excited to help) and she kept calling him and leaving messages for him -- not for me! And she somehow lost interest in me helping her. 
Fast forward to right now. My cousin's wife became smitten with him 10 or so years ago. When we were all together she behaved like an absolute idiot. Crushing so hard. My cousin was rightly very irritated - not with her but with my husband. Maybe he saw something I didn't? So we stopped seeing them. But she will sometimes come to where I work and be very superficial asking about our kids. Then she always adds in a very saucy voice - usually on her way out the door - "Tell _my husband's name here_ I said hi"
She and my cousin drove down our street two days ago and she practically jumped out of the car while it was moving waving so excitedly. This was not for me because she an easily see me any time where I work and does not visit. Ever.

So she's crushing on him then and still just because he's cute and nice? Their flirting when we would see them back in the day was extremely uncomfortable and full of sparks. It infuriated me.


----------



## Rus47

statuscheck said:


> *because he was never that passionate with me or eager. so in that there's not been much change,* I don't think its ED or his health.


This is quite strange. Yet before you married he had an active life with Aussie? Maybe he pines for her?


----------



## statuscheck

Rus47 said:


> No. Doesnt sound like that at all. Was he ever in your long marriage (27 years) wearing you out? My impression is the answer is NO. I mean if he just drained his tank, he is more likely to avoid you until the tank fills back up than to suggest something he knows he wont be able to accomplish.
> 
> Is it conceivable that the pressure in the moment deflates him. He suggests sex so then you initiate? Why doesnt HE initiate?
> If I waited for my wife to initiate we would never be together. Her version of initiating is to ask “wanna go lay down?”
> 
> This almost sounds like a man who psychologically isnt able to consummate. I mean you have kids, so he obviously managed to do the deed a few times. Maybe he really in his head wants to take care of his duties but isnt psychologically able.
> 
> Is it possible he was an abuse victim sometime in his early life.
> 
> Honestly this doesnt IMO sound anything like a husband who is cheating on you. Ok just read about his fling with Aussie woman so obviously he was able to perform when young in the service.


Abuse victim or some other kind of trauma yes very possible - not sexual abuse though. I know the whole family and life although people can bury things away its true.


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

statuscheck said:


> He may view porn I can't tell at all. I've asked and he says no. In desperation for even exposure to sex at some point in our marriage I watched some and told him about it, and he did not seem to know what to do with that. I told him why I was watching it and he really didn't react. If anything he thought it was weird, so I stopped talking about it.
> 
> His health is great. Another reason he would want to stay married to me in this roommate/mother/caregiver/friend arrangement. I keep our family very healthy and am great cook. He loves my cooking. And it's healthy - i do a lot of research and careful shopping for our food and it is good.
> 
> I can only compare him with my high school and college boyfriends b/c after that there's been noone else. These were all consuming sexual relationships - everything revolved around very passionate sex. I wondered how anyone can become a functioning adult thinking so much about and having so much sex. So toning that down in marriage seemed ok to me, because he was never that passionate with me or eager. so in that there's not been much change, I don't think its ED or his health. He may have been cheating all these years and just not be attracted to a wife -- maybe to him a wife is a functional thing, like having a mother around still. I know that sounds weird but its plausible and I've asked him and pressed this over the years. He swears he's incredibly attracted to me and thinks we have a fine sex life....🙃...


In my experience (and this might just be me) most guys won't admit to using porn. But that's just the relationships I've had, your mileage may vary. 

His reaction to you watching it is interesting, though. Maybe because viewing porn is often thought of as a man's activity? I wonder. Or he might have this idea that you're not "that" type of woman, so he is uncomfortable with the idea of you watching it. 
As you stated, some men see their wives as more of a "good girl/mom" type (even if that isn't always true). It's weird, but that is how some people think. And then they see other women in a different way. 

How you describe your ex-boyfriends...I was like that with one former boyfriend many years ago (he died). Have you told your husband that you want to feel more intimate, more connected to him sexually? It could also be a compatibility issue. 
Maybe your drive is much higher than his.


----------



## statuscheck

Rus47 said:


> This is quite strange. Yet before you married he had an active life with Aussie? Maybe he pines for her?


He was away for 6 months or so. She was there too as an au pair. I think it wasn't just her. It was a group of them all messing around. Sure he may pine for her. Who knows? There are so many other women he knows since then and before who I would think would be more appealing to him. She seemed a bit rough and vulgar for him. Certainly aggressive. He tends to go for / flirt with gentler more intellectual and creative types (see...should he really have a type after being married to me all this time??)


----------



## statuscheck

MichelleMyBelle said:


> In my experience (and this might just be me) most guys won't admit to using porn. But that's just the relationships I've had, your mileage may vary.
> 
> His reaction to you watching it is interesting, though. Maybe because viewing porn is often thought of as a man's activity? I wonder. Or he might have this idea that you're not "that" type of woman, so he is uncomfortable with the idea of you watching it.
> As you stated, some men see their wives as more of a "good girl/mom" type (even if that isn't always true). It's weird, but that is how some people think. And then they see other women in a different way.
> 
> How you describe your ex-boyfriends...I was like that with one former boyfriend many years ago (he died). Have you told your husband that you want to feel more intimate, more connected to him sexually? It could also be a compatibility issue.
> Maybe your drive is much higher than his.


Gosh thank you for your thoughtful responses. 
Yes I've always assumed our drives were different. I was happy to reign mine in to focus on growing up and raising nice children and all. But stopping altogether? so yes we've talked about this quite a lot. He insists that he thinks we have a pleasurable life together, if not much time for sex. 
So I told him we'd have a wonderful life with our kids, and then as empty nesters, we could get back to business.
With these latest alarm bells I'm seeing that may not be possible.
It feels like he is simply not interested in me. He'll pretend to be and talk like he is...but is not.
This is when I think he could be gay. But then why flirt with all these women? 

The conversations about our current and future sex life only make me feel like he's gaslighting me. How can no sex be good sex... 

And if he has a low sex drive then why the intensity with all these other people. Just because he has a magnetic personality? @Melinda82 you said your husbands attracts people. Do you experience him attracting people with intensity and urgency, or just admiration?

and I wonder where does their urgency come from? Maybe he attracts women who want sex _now_ and his flirting somehow conveys it's possible (maybe he seems malleable). 
Still lately he seems to have more agency in all of this than simply "being chased by floozies" as one funny poster wrote.


----------



## Rus47

statuscheck said:


> Abuse victim or some other kind of trauma yes very possible - not sexual abuse though. I know the whole family and life although people can bury things away its true.


He surely knows you are sexually frustrated. Most men would be worried sick that you would seek satisfaction elsewhere. They would be moving heaven and earth to fix their problem. He knows not performing his role is not at all normal. If you come on to him, what exactly does he do? Run away? Or make excuses?

Have the two of you ever considered counseling by a therapist licensed to treat sexual dysfunction in marriage? What would your husbands response to your asking for that be?


----------



## Rus47

statuscheck said:


> He was away for 6 months or so. She was there too as an au pair. I think it wasn't just her. It was a group of them all messing around. Sure he may pine for her. Who knows? There are so many other women he knows since then and before who I would think would be more appealing to him. She seemed a bit rough and vulgar for him. Certainly aggressive. He tends to go for / flirt with gentler more intellectual and creative types (see...should he really have a type after being married to me all this time??)


But see he can flirt with a non/aggressive female without risk of her jumping on him and ripping his clothes off. He wont be expected to perform.


----------



## statuscheck

Rus47 said:


> But see he can flirt with a non/aggressive female without risk of her jumping on him and ripping his clothes off. He wont be expected to perform.


Hm. yes it's possible. And what I've hoped all these years..that that's all that is going on. 
I do have so many more stories/examples. So many. Such a large collection is curious though. And the overt flirting is still really disrespectful. 
One thing is he's done this in front of family and people he would want to make a good impression with.
An acquaintance told me she thinks this is abuse and meant to isolate me from these folks. 
another layer.....

anyway I thank you for taking this time to weigh in I really appreciate it. Ya'll are very helpful.


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

statuscheck said:


> Gosh thank you for your thoughtful responses.
> Yes I've always assumed our drives were different. I was happy to reign mine in to focus on growing up and raising nice children and all. But stopping altogether? so yes we've talked about this quite a lot. He insists that he thinks we have a pleasurable life together, if not much time for sex.
> So I told him we'd have a wonderful life with our kids, and then as empty nesters, we could get back to business.
> With these latest alarm bells I'm seeing that may not be possible.
> It feels like he is simply not interested in me. He'll pretend to be and talk like he is...but is not.
> This is when I think he could be gay. But then why flirt with all these women?
> 
> The conversations about our current and future sex life only make me feel like he's gaslighting me. How can no sex be good sex...
> 
> And if he has a low sex drive then why the intensity with all these other people. Just because he has a magnetic personality? @Melinda82 you said your husbands attracts people. Do you experience him attracting people with intensity and urgency, or just admiration?
> 
> and I wonder where does their urgency come from? Maybe he attracts women who want sex _now_ and his flirting somehow conveys it's possible (maybe he seems malleable).
> Still lately he seems to have more agency in all of this than simply "being chased by floozies" as one funny poster wrote.


Sorry Status, did you mean Melinda82 or myself when you asked about the type of attention our husbands get from people?
If you were asking me...it depends. I think that in a more innocent way, people seem to like him as a person. He is smart, good at his job, has some cool hobbies, helpful, can be funny when he wants to, and is handsome in a conventional way. 
So when it's the more innocent type of admiration, that's not a problem. I'm proud of him, he is a pretty neat guy in many ways. 

I think the downside of charm, however, is that sometimes it can be misused...both by the individual and those they attract.
Intent seems to be the main thing here (and boundaries). A person can be friendly and the life of the party but still draw a line. 
But if a person consistently acts in ways that signal "availability" to others, that's not good. Maybe your husband's flirting could also be a self-esteem issue.
He might feel confident when women notice him, flirt back with him, the attention makes him feel better about himself.

Some people almost get like a dopamine hit when the opposite sex pays attention to them. That could be the case with him. 
The thing is, too, even if you give him attention, it might still not be enough to satisfy him. He might have learned to compensate for certain flaws by becoming this charming person. All of this is just my opinion of what might be happening, so take it for what it's worth.


----------



## statuscheck

Rus47 said:


> He surely knows you are sexually frustrated. Most men would be worried sick that you would seek satisfaction elsewhere. They would be moving heaven and earth to fix their problem. He knows not performing his role is not at all normal. If you come on to him, what exactly does he do? Run away? Or make excuses?
> 
> Have the two of you ever considered counseling by a therapist licensed to treat sexual dysfunction in marriage? What would your husbands response to your asking for that be?


We're looking for counselors/therapists to talk to. You're right - it might be good to approach the therapy as a marital sex problem and actually see a sex therapist. I wish we could find one like Barbara Streisand in "Meet the Fockers" (with Ben Stiller and Robert Deniro).

Like your wife he has a code phrase for sex, so he'll say that sometimes. I'm not so good at initiating with him bc I feel I'll get rejected. And yes if I initiate that can be the case - too many times for me to not feel vulnerable in asking. In these instances he may try but he's not into it. 
But I do ask and it seems like he'd prefer to be somehow completely ready or whatever that means to him so prefers to ask when he's ready. Often seems a bit surprised when I ask. Sometimes we both see we have an opportunity so it's mutual. But I never feel he's fully present with me. I always feel he's holding something back. That's the saddest part for me.


----------



## statuscheck

MichelleMyBelle said:


> Sorry Status, did you mean Melinda82 or myself when you asked about the type of attention our husbands get from people?
> If you were asking me...it depends. I think that in a more innocent way, people seem to like him as a person. He is smart, good at his job, has some cool hobbies, helpful, can be funny when he wants to, and is handsome in a conventional way.
> So when it's the more innocent type of admiration, that's not a problem. I'm proud of him, he is a pretty neat guy in many ways.
> 
> I think the downside of charm, however, is that sometimes it can be misused...both by the individual and those they attract.
> Intent seems to be the main thing here (and boundaries). A person can be friendly and the life of the party but still draw a line.
> But if a person consistently acts in ways that signal "availability" to others, that's not good. Maybe your husband's flirting could also be a self-esteem issue.
> He might feel confident when women notice him, flirt back with him, the attention makes him feel better about himself.
> 
> Some people almost get like a dopamine hit when the opposite sex pays attention to them. That could be the case with him.
> The thing is, too, even if you give him attention, it might still not be enough to satisfy him. He might have learned to compensate for certain flaws by becoming this charming person. All of this is just my opinion of what might be happening, so take it for what it's worth.


sorry yes @MichelleMyBelle I meant you


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

statuscheck said:


> maybe in the very beginning only. Then we moved abroad for a short time and should have had an incredibly romantic time. Instead we argued and he got in the weird sort of entanglements I've described with women he was interviewing for his work projects. In one case I was supposed to begin volunteering with one of them (they had great need for people to work with kids and I was excited to help) and she kept calling him and leaving messages for him -- not for me! And she somehow lost interest in me helping her.
> Fast forward to right now. My cousin's wife became smitten with him 10 or so years ago. When we were all together she behaved like an absolute idiot. Crushing so hard. My cousin was rightly very irritated - not with her but with my husband. Maybe he saw something I didn't? So we stopped seeing them. But she will sometimes come to where I work and be very superficial asking about our kids. Then she always adds in a very saucy voice - usually on her way out the door - "Tell _my husband's name here_ I said hi"
> She and my cousin drove down our street two days ago and she practically jumped out of the car while it was moving waving so excitedly. This was not for me because she an easily see me any time where I work and does not visit. Ever.
> 
> So she's crushing on him then and still just because he's cute and nice? Their flirting when we would see them back in the day was extremely uncomfortable and full of sparks. It infuriated me.


Ugh...what is with these female coworkers sometimes? Funny how she wanted to talk to him about the project, but wanted nothing to do with you. 🙄

And your cousin's wife sounds like a weirdo. It's so rude to act that way.


----------



## statuscheck

Rus47 said:


> He surely knows you are sexually frustrated. Most men would be worried sick that you would seek satisfaction elsewhere. They would be moving heaven and earth to fix their problem. He knows not performing his role is not at all normal. If you come on to him, what exactly does he do? Run away? Or make excuses?
> 
> Have the two of you ever considered counseling by a therapist licensed to treat sexual dysfunction in marriage? What would your husbands response to your asking for that be?


ha
he's definitely not worried about me seeking satisfaction elsewhere. He feels he has me fully. Mostly because he's known me most of my life he knows I'm monogamous and loyal, and not even a flirt. I have developed painfully intense crushes on people during our marriage though. I didn't seek these out, they just happened suddenly and nothing came of them. Just painfully awkward to see the people and think of them. It always feels intrusive. It's awful because they just happen with the right person saying the right thing at the right time, when I must be feeling very lonely. Nothing comes of it but it's nice to know these men are attracted when it happens and they really want me to know. They don't take it further either other than maybe suggestive looks and comments. They too must see I'm a loyal, monogamous type.
These have all happened when the man shows interest in a very sweet and disarming way and I do not have my defenses up. So I've confessed a few of these to my husband, hoping to get a constructive conversation going about why I could feel these ways. He thanks me for telling him but leaves it at that! He's not really worried! That's some confidence don't you think?


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

statuscheck said:


> ha
> he's definitely not worried about me seeking satisfaction elsewhere. He feels he has me fully. Mostly because he's known me most of my life he knows I'm monogamous and loyal, and not even a flirt. I have developed painfully intense crushes on people during our marriage though. I didn't seek these out, they just happened suddenly and nothing came of them. Just painfully awkward to see the people and think of them. It always feels intrusive. It's awful because they just happen with the right person saying the right thing at the right time, when I must be feeling very lonely. Nothing comes of it but it's nice to know these men are attracted when it happens and they really want me to know. They don't take it further either other than maybe suggestive looks and comments. They too must see I'm a loyal, monogamous type.
> These have all happened when the man shows interest in a very sweet and disarming way and I do not have my defenses up. So I've confessed a few of these to my husband, hoping to get a constructive conversation going about why I could feel these ways. He thanks me for telling him but leaves it at that! He's not really worried! That's some confidence don't you think?


Kudos to you for doing the right thing even when you had other people interested in you! I'm just like you in that way (although no crushes on anyone).
It's nice to have people find us attractive as long as we don't cross the line.


----------



## statuscheck

MichelleMyBelle said:


> Ugh...what is with these female coworkers sometimes? Funny how she wanted to talk to him about the project, but wanted nothing to do with you. 🙄
> 
> And your cousin's wife sounds like a weirdo. It's so rude to act that way.


right because they desperately needed volunteers and I was a perfect fit and she not only didn't want me she acted like she resented me..and kept calling my husband! Btw he was done with that portion of his project. He'd only needed some information from her so why they stayed in contact was completely unclear. He swore it was her seeking him out only.


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

statuscheck said:


> right because they desperately needed volunteers and I was a perfect fit and she not only didn't want me she acted like she resented me..and kept calling my husband! Btw he was done with that portion of his project. He'd only needed some information from her so why they stayed in contact was completely unclear. He swore it was her seeking him out only.


yep, fairly obvious that she only wanted to deal with him and not you. Like I said, I've met that type several times. They see you as the "competition" although you are the wife. 
And it's not like you are being mean to them or anything...they choose to give off this bad energy, like YOU are the other woman or something. 

Also, I call BS on what he told you because he chose to stay in contact with her. He could have stopped that any time he wanted to. 
This guy must really be something special...wow, to have this many women after him. My husband does too, but wow.


----------



## statuscheck

MichelleMyBelle said:


> yep, fairly obvious that she only wanted to deal with him and not you. Like I said, I've met that type several times. They see you as the "competition" although you are the wife.
> And it's not like you are being mean to them or anything...they choose to give off this bad energy, like YOU are the other woman or something.
> 
> Also, I call BS on what he told you because he chose to stay in contact with her. He could have stopped that any time he wanted to.
> This guy must really be something special...wow, to have this many women after him. My husband does too, but wow.


isn't it odd? 
I know in my heart of hearts it's because he's encouraging it. 
And I've seen how he does it. He's hidden it well but I've gotten enough glimpses. The key questions are how far has he taken these? How often? And do I want to go on like this for the rest of my life. If we stay together then someday I'll be so lonely in the nursing home, because I'll be the one with a husband still alive and he'll be flirting with everyone and they will all hate me because I'll be in their way. 😌

I know there are aggressive women. I don't understand it fully because I'm not one, but I never really had to be. If some women learned to make super bold moves because that was the only way to attract the object of their affection - and it worked - they'll keep at it and refining it. 

and there are sadly the women (a minority but they're out there) who hit on attached men just because. The Australian was like that. She was very proud to have gotten him to cheat on me. He'd been bragging about being in love and having a girlfriend at home (hmmm...is this a way he figured out to attract girls?) The challenge seemed all too tempting for her and her crew.
She said as much when I tracked her down and called her. 

Where we live I'm seeing a trend of young women - 20s - seeking out stable married men to actually marry. They seem to be looking around and seeing their male peers as gay, or indecisive, or not grown up, still questioning sexual orientation, video game addicted, porn addicted....etc etc. and deciding a married man in his 40s or even 50s with kids, a good career, home, stable life, etc. is very very appealing. And they're going for it. It's gross. They will be leaving that man in about 20 years!


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

statuscheck said:


> isn't it odd?
> I know in my heart of hearts it's because he's encouraging it.
> And I've seen how he does it. He's hidden it well but I've gotten enough glimpses. The key questions are how far has he taken these? How often? And do I want to go on like this for the rest of my life. If we stay together then someday I'll be so lonely in the nursing home, because I'll be the one with a husband still alive and he'll be flirting with everyone and they will all hate me because I'll be in their way. 😌
> 
> I know there are aggressive women. I don't understand it fully because I'm not one, but I never really had to be. If some women learned to make super bold moves because that was the only way to attract the object of their affection - and it worked - they'll keep at it and refining it.
> 
> and there are sadly the women (a minority but they're out there) who hit on attached men just because. The Australian was like that. She was very proud to have gotten him to cheat on me. He'd been bragging about being in love and having a girlfriend at home (hmmm...is this a way he figured out to attract girls?) The challenge seemed all too tempting for her and her crew.
> She said as much when I tracked her down and called her.
> 
> Where we live I'm seeing a trend of young women - 20s - seeking out stable married men to actually marry. They seem to be looking around and seeing their male peers as gay, or indecisive, or not grown up, still questioning sexual orientation, video game addicted, porn addicted....etc etc. and deciding a married man in his 40s or even 50s with kids, a good career, home, stable life, etc. is very very appealing. And they're going for it. It's gross. They will be leaving that man in about 20 years!


Absolutely, Status...you speak the truth. I think the real problem was not so much the Aussie girlfriend, but your husband's cheating ways. 
He was the one who disrespected you when you really look at it. She is at fault too, and she doesn't sound like a nice person, but it is more his fault than anything. 

About women who hit on married men, I agree. When I was in my teens and early 20's, I was considered a pretty girl with a nice little figure. 
Married men would hit on me all the time. Coming from a broken home with an abusive stepfather, one would think that I could be an "Other Woman" type. 
I was not, because I chose to have morals and stay away from married men. I knew it just wasn't right to hurt people that way. 
I didn't want to ruin families or hurt somebody's wife the way another woman hurt my mom. 

I think for the young girls you talk about, they are often damaged in some way and they use sex to feel more loved, more secure in some way.
The whole concept of them hooking up with older married men is nothing new. They feel that the married men can provide them with a better life, things they wouldn't have otherwise. 
This is also why some young women become escorts. Not to pay bills or have food to eat or go to school, but so they can afford an expensive purse. 
Some girls don't come from homes/families that love them, so they seek it out in the wrong places. It's sad.


----------



## jlg07

MichelleMyBelle said:


> Sometimes, yes...it can be denial and blame-shifting. We can't say if your husband is a narcissist or not. But what you're describing is denial, it sounds like. Maybe trying to convince you that he doesn't flirt or act inappropriately when in fact he does.


One other quick comment for the both of you -- giving someone the silent treatment shows that they are VERY emotionally immature and also very manipulative, so just see that when your H's pull this sort of stuff.


----------



## jlg07

statuscheck said:


> He insists that he thinks we have a pleasurable life together, if not much time for sex.


Nope, not good.
Look (and I've said this before here on the site) -- your PRIMARY relationship is your spouse, NOT your kids. Yes, you need to take care of them, provide for them, teach/guide them, but that is so that they grow up to be productive members of society. They will eventually gone on to have their OWN lives. Your spouse will/should ALWAYS be your primary focus. You need to feed and nurture that relationship, even if it means you tell your kids NO every now and again. YOU need to go out to dinner by yourselves sometimes, YOU need to go to the movies by yourselves sometimes, etc..
Giving the excuse that you are TOO BUSY because of the kids is lazy and shows that you are not making your spouse your priority. If you don't -- when that empty nest comes, you two will have NOTHING in common and no real relationship.


----------



## statuscheck

jlg07 said:


> One other quick comment for the both of you -- giving someone the silent treatment shows that they are VERY emotionally immature and also very manipulative, so just see that when your H's pull this sort of stuff.


agreed


----------



## statuscheck

jlg07 said:


> Nope, not good.
> Look (and I've said this before here on the site) -- your PRIMARY relationship is your spouse, NOT your kids. Yes, you need to take care of them, provide for them, teach/guide them, but that is so that they grow up to be productive members of society. They will eventually gone on to have their OWN lives. Your spouse will/should ALWAYS be your primary focus. You need to feed and nurture that relationship, even if it means you tell your kids NO every now and again. YOU need to go out to dinner by yourselves sometimes, YOU need to go to the movies by yourselves sometimes, etc..
> Giving the excuse that you are TOO BUSY because of the kids is lazy and shows that you are not making your spouse your priority. If you don't -- when that empty nest comes, you two will have NOTHING in common and no real relationship.


totally agreed
we've always gone one dates. Hired babysitters when they were little. lunch dates while they're at school. Go to events together. Yes though them being home or around or about to come home has been an _excuse_ not to have sex. The sex issue for my situation goes back pre-kids...married 8 years before having kids! But I hear you and you're right


----------



## statuscheck

statuscheck said:


> totally agreed
> we've always gone one dates. Hired babysitters when they were little. lunch dates while they're at school. Go to events together. Yes though them being home or around or about to come home has been an _excuse_ not to have sex. The sex issue for my situation goes back pre-kids...married 8 years before having kids! But I hear you and you're right


like I've said we are friends and do hang out like a married couple. That's why I'm still married to him even with all his flirting and boundary blurring that I'm trying to figure out


----------



## statuscheck

Here's another scenario. And then I'll stop! Bc I could go on forever here about all this.

A few weeks ago went went to a local restaurant to the bar to watch a football game.
It wasn't crowded but the bartender was busy with restaurant guests. She was not particularly friendly. Or pretty. She was also quite rude until she realized we'd be ordering stuff throughout the game. Then she was friendlier. Cute figure, decent features but not pretty per se. Otherwise I would've been subtly watching husband given what's going on. I didn't give her a second thought then other than ordering from her and being polite etc.

4th quarter I leave to use restroom. I return and settle in for last plays. Game is close so I'm excited about that and focused. Until I see the dramatic hair flip. At the register, somewhat in front of us, she did this weird head flip that flung her hair out and around. It was weird. I instantly looked at my husband. He shrugged his shoulders.
She had a sheepish grin on her face. She'd not been smiling the whole time. Then she approached me in an in-your-face way but also subtle, a bit snarky asking "would you like _another_ drink?" I'd had plenty of a low-alcohol cider. And the game was about to end. I understood her asking once or twice, but 3-4 times when I'd already said no thank you? It felt like she was mocking me. My husband shrugged. It occurred to me this is the behavior - so did he do the flirty thing with her while I was in the bathroom? It seemed he did. Her behavior changed so dramatically. Something else could've happened too in that time yes, but this is a constant thing. 

If he did do something I think he really has a mental health issue with neediness.


----------



## statuscheck

@MichelleMyBelle sounds like you're married to a grownup 
I'm apparently married to someone stuck at 20


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

Ah yes, the hair flip! We ladies know it when we see it. 😂 She may have been flirting with him after you went to the bathroom, maybe not.
I wouldn't make too much of her actions. Now if they exchanged numbers or contact info, _then_ you might have a problem. 
Otherwise don't give her another thought.


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

statuscheck said:


> @MichelleMyBelle sounds like you're married to a grownup
> I'm apparently married to someone stuck at 20


He's a good guy, but we've had our problems. I shared some of it in the section for New Members. We do have our issues...he did a bait and switch when it came to kids (he doesn't want them, I do). We had a sexless marriage for a long time (but that changed in 2020). He wouldn't touch me, so kind of like what you're dealing with now. 
And like your husband, he can do the silent treatment AND there have been some issues with coworkers/an ex-girlfriend/porn/being a bit too friendly with other women. 

So we have similar problems, but that's why we are here, right? To talk and hopefully help one another in whatever way we can. 
Your husband might have some redeeming qualities but he needs to deal with his addiction to flirting with other women. 
I wonder if his mom or whatever woman raised him neglected him? Maybe that's why there is this need to seek validation from women? He has to get a grip because we are in the time of #MeToo and at some point, this behavior will cross the line and get him in trouble.


----------



## statuscheck

MichelleMyBelle said:


> He's a good guy, but we've had our problems. I shared some of it in the section for New Members. We do have our issues...he did a bait and switch when it came to kids (he doesn't want them, I do). We had a sexless marriage for a long time (but that changed in 2020). He wouldn't touch me, so kind of like what you're dealing with now.
> And like your husband, he can do the silent treatment AND there have been some issues with coworkers/an ex-girlfriend/porn/being a bit too friendly with other women.
> 
> So we have similar problems, but that's why we are here, right? To talk and hopefully help one another in whatever way we can.
> Your husband might have some redeeming qualities but he needs to deal with his addiction to flirting with other women.
> I wonder if his mom or whatever woman raised him neglected him? Maybe that's why there is this need to seek validation from women? He has to get a grip because we are in the time of #MeToo and at some point, this behavior will cross the line and get him in trouble.


@MichelleMyBelle I made time this afternoon to look at your op.
So sorry you're going through this. I'm painfully relating to much of your tone, with trying to be fair to your H, for feeling guilty for suspecting him if he's not, to trying to factor in your own contributions to problems, to being compassionate with him, all while trying to protect yourself... because all your instincts are telling you what you are praying is not happening. 

I've had time this week to write all this and seek help and guidance and to go back to similar threads (and yours) and it's been incredibly helpful. My husband has been away this week on business. And true to all other posters' warnings, because I decided to confront him, and we had massive fights over his behavior in the past month, he's being very very careful. And that is sending up more red flags for me. He left out his iPad on his desk - the iPad I'd begun to think of as his lover, he's so attached to it - and it's cleared of everything. 

I took the risk of confronting him before having evidence because I don't know that I'll ever have any. I felt his behavior was so odd that he was surely now actually in love with one of his flirtations and was anguished over wanting to tell me he'd leave me. So I pressed, expecting him to say, Yes! I'm seeing someone, and I'm in love! 
At one point he did look at me and say very confidently "YOU have NO proof" (caps intended to convey voice emphasis).
Then I would finally be able to wrap up this ambiguity. And make sense of his ambiguity and secrecy and odd behavior (much like your husband's).
He has a security-heavy job so I won't be able to put anything in his car, but will try on the weekends. 

I'm afraid he's been doing stuff on the side our entire marriage (and as you know pre-marriage) so often that to him, this is his life. And I'm as integral to it as anything. He does not want it disrupted. He gets me, and them (whatever that means to them and him. I wrote a poem pouring out (pun intended!) my feelings when I first suspected something with the coffee shop girl. I'll reply with is below b/c I think many may be able to relate. 

Indeed is a job search tool. As another poster wrote so is LinkedIn. Don't have to already be employed for either. With your gentle nature and natural compassion, and you seem so calm, you would be great at so many jobs. I would look to local government too - to county workforce centers. There are counselors you can talk to. They want to pair people with jobs! As other posters noted, we're in a spell of high employment rates and this is the perfect time to get your foot in the door.
There may even be education grants relevant to your situation.
I thank you for your support and kind words to me.


----------



## statuscheck

Ok I've written many poems to help me through this and they're with a publisher I"m happy to say.
This is one, that may resonate with TAM folks.


Ardently you support and nurture
small local businesses
revealing principles refined over time

Young proprietress observes you 
she smiles
she thanks you
but is taking note

And imagines you lead a certain lifestyle
And that you're rich

with characteristics 
she's fearful 
she'll never have

She wants your Life
with your smug husband

relishing a conquest 
of another gullible admirer
Prepared or not

at having ushered in 
the worst possible enemy

Who will grasp after
the life we've made 
that she holds in her imagination

The scheming shrinks 
their shallow souls

While they pretend 
they've found love
But nurture no one


----------



## statuscheck

Here is some proof but it was 15 years ago...
we had just moved to foreign country and our living arrangement was not appropriate. We had 7 mo old baby and toddler. We were isolated.
My 20-something brother and his wife were living in this country and came to visit for the day My brother had to be on the phone outside in their car for an hour or so. H, SIL, baby and I are all sitting together in the living room. I had to leave to bf the baby. 

H and SIL already knew each other well, apparently better than I realized, b/c he'd taken business trips there and hung out with SIL and my brother.

SIL had professed to feeling very lonely and ignored by my brother while he finished his schooling. She is a pampered princess. Very spoiled. So my brother was treating her very well in fact, just not giving her everything she needed which is a lot.....

I return from feeding the baby and these two are almost on each other's laps. Had they been kissing? I don't know. It seemed possible. I was horrified. I felt violated and vulnerable. With a new baby I couldn't accept my husband had done this. So we stopped seeing my brother and SIL and I blamed her. Yes I was furious with my husband and knew he had a role. But I saw her as the instigator (she's incredibly boundary-less and flirtatious in any event). In the end I told my brother what happened. I told him she owed me an apology. When we needed their support she undermined my world. I'm friendly with her now all these years later and forgive her... she was immature and spoiled and entitled, and I know now my husband probably encouraged her.


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

statuscheck said:


> @MichelleMyBelle I made time this afternoon to look at your op.
> So sorry you're going through this. I'm painfully relating to much of your tone, with trying to be fair to your H, for feeling guilty for suspecting him if he's not, to trying to factor in your own contributions to problems, to being compassionate with him, all while trying to protect yourself... because all your instincts are telling you what you are praying is not happening.
> 
> I've had time this week to write all this and seek help and guidance and to go back to similar threads (and yours) and it's been incredibly helpful. My husband has been away this week on business. And true to all other posters' warnings, because I decided to confront him, and we had massive fights over his behavior in the past month, he's being very very careful. And that is sending up more red flags for me. He left out his iPad on his desk - the iPad I'd begun to think of as his lover, he's so attached to it - and it's cleared of everything.
> 
> I took the risk of confronting him before having evidence because I don't know that I'll ever have any. I felt his behavior was so odd that he was surely now actually in love with one of his flirtations and was anguished over wanting to tell me he'd leave me. So I pressed, expecting him to say, Yes! I'm seeing someone, and I'm in love!
> At one point he did look at me and say very confidently "YOU have NO proof" (caps intended to convey voice emphasis).
> Then I would finally be able to wrap up this ambiguity. And make sense of his ambiguity and secrecy and odd behavior (much like your husband's).
> He has a security-heavy job so I won't be able to put anything in his car, but will try on the weekends.
> 
> I'm afraid he's been doing stuff on the side our entire marriage (and as you know pre-marriage) so often that to him, this is his life. And I'm as integral to it as anything. He does not want it disrupted. He gets me, and them (whatever that means to them and him. I wrote a poem pouring out (pun intended!) my feelings when I first suspected something with the coffee shop girl. I'll reply with is below b/c I think many may be able to relate.
> 
> Indeed is a job search tool. As another poster wrote so is LinkedIn. Don't have to already be employed for either. With your gentle nature and natural compassion, and you seem so calm, you would be great at so many jobs. I would look to local government too - to county workforce centers. There are counselors you can talk to. They want to pair people with jobs! As other posters noted, we're in a spell of high employment rates and this is the perfect time to get your foot in the door.
> There may even be education grants relevant to your situation.
> I thank you for your support and kind words to me.


That's so sweet, Status Check! Your kind words are much appreciated also. My fears job-wise are age, an "unspecified" disability (I'll explain more later) and what I see as being a lack of marketable job skills in today's world.
I feel like there isn't much out there for somebody like me. It doesn't stop me from trying but it's tough. And thanks for help in that area too...some people on here saw that I am unemployed and pounced on that immediately. 
Like you, I was also accused of using my husband as a meal ticket. So again, thanks to you and anyone else who chooses not to judge a complete stranger on an Internet forum, but instead to be helpful. 😊

Anyway, threadjack over...but what you said makes me so sad for you. Do you think your husband has actually fallen in love with somebody? Coffee shop girl? 
It sounds like you might think he took things to that level. I hope for your sake, he is innocent. If not, what will you do? 
I wonder how the kids will be affected by his actions? 

Also...I considered putting a VAR in the car too, but in some states you can get into trouble for that. It depends on where you live.
Not sure of what it all entails, but I know of cases where people tried to catch a cheater that way and they broke the law (without knowing that, of course).
So maybe do some research before you do it, just to be on the safe side.


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

statuscheck said:


> Here is some proof but it was 15 years ago...
> we had just moved to foreign country and our living arrangement was not appropriate. We had 7 mo old baby and toddler. We were isolated.
> My 20-something brother and his wife were living in this country and came to visit for the day My brother had to be on the phone outside in their car for an hour or so. H, SIL, baby and I are all sitting together in the living room. I had to leave to bf the baby.
> 
> H and SIL already knew each other well, apparently better than I realized, b/c he'd taken business trips there and hung out with SIL and my brother.
> 
> SIL had professed to feeling very lonely and ignored by my brother while he finished his schooling. She is a pampered princess. Very spoiled. So my brother was treating her very well in fact, just not giving her everything she needed which is a lot.....
> 
> I return from feeding the baby and these two are almost on each other's laps. Had they been kissing? I don't know. It seemed possible. I was horrified. I felt violated and vulnerable. With a new baby I couldn't accept my husband had done this. So we stopped seeing my brother and SIL and I blamed her. Yes I was furious with my husband and knew he had a role. But I saw her as the instigator (she's incredibly boundary-less and flirtatious in any event). In the end I told my brother what happened. I told him she owed me an apology. When we needed their support she undermined my world. I'm friendly with her now all these years later and forgive her... she was immature and spoiled and entitled, and I know now my husband probably encouraged her.


Wow, I'm sorry. It sounds like there is indeed a long history of him treating you this way and you took him back each time. 
Maybe he needs to learn that you are tired of this, and there will finally be consequences to his actions? I also understand wanting to blame these other women for their disrespect to you (as his wife). He seems to be the main problem here, though...his lack of self-control and no boundaries.

These women couldn't do what they do with him if he didn't encourage it. A hot guy could flirt with me, even take his clothes off in front of me, and I still would remain loyal to my husband. 
It's about integrity even if other opportunities present themselves. We all have choices...we can do what feels good at the moment, even when we know it's wrong. 
Or we can choose to live life in an honest, respectful way that doesn't harm others. Your husband doesn't seem to care how his actions affect you. 

He won't care until you show him that you mean business.


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

statuscheck said:


> Ok I've written many poems to help me through this and they're with a publisher I"m happy to say.
> This is one, that may resonate with TAM folks.
> 
> 
> Ardently you support and nurture
> small local businesses
> revealing principles refined over time
> 
> Young proprietress observes you
> she smiles
> she thanks you
> but is taking note
> 
> And imagines you lead a certain lifestyle
> And that you're rich
> 
> with characteristics
> she's fearful
> she'll never have
> 
> She wants your Life
> with your smug husband
> 
> relishing a conquest
> of another gullible admirer
> Prepared or not
> 
> at having ushered in
> the worst possible enemy
> 
> Who will grasp after
> the life we've made
> that she holds in her imagination
> 
> The scheming shrinks
> their shallow souls
> 
> While they pretend
> they've found love
> But nurture no one


Wow, this is original and well written! It captures your feelings very well...and I would imagine, many people can relate.
This is definitely the coffee shop girl you are describing, then? It sounds like out of all the women, SHE is the one that bothers you the most (even more than the Aussie he fooled around with).

Have you had a chance to talk with her? Again, this is a heartfelt poem you wrote. I'm sorry you are going through this.


----------



## Rus47

statuscheck said:


> He left out his iPad on his desk - the iPad I'd begun to think of as his lover, he's so attached to it - and it's cleared of everything.


This is a red flag. Leaving it out as a taunt? 

Do you realize a PI could likely answer all of your questions in a few days. I have no idea what they cost, believe on average $100/hour. They do this sort of thing all of the time. Most attorneys have access to them so maybe your attorney could put you in contact with one. You will be able to confirm or refute your suspicions in a short period of time. 

You have been suspecting things for years, you think he has cheated on you for the entire marriage. IMO would have thought at least one of his lovers ( if there indeed were any ) would have confronted you already and told you she wanted him. Or he would have slipped up and left a love letter on the kitchen table. Personally, I think you are extrapolating from some flirting to something that isn't there. What woman is going to spend time with an attached guy who is all hat and no cattle, when they can easily find an available one ready for action?


----------



## statuscheck

Rus47 said:


> This is a red flag. Leaving it out as a taunt?
> 
> Do you realize a PI could likely answer all of your questions in a few days. I have no idea what they cost, believe on average $100/hour. They do this sort of thing all of the time. Most attorneys have access to them so maybe your attorney could put you in contact with one. You will be able to confirm or refute your suspicions in a short period of time.
> 
> You have been suspecting things for years, you think he has cheated on you for the entire marriage. IMO would have thought at least one of his lovers ( if there indeed were any ) would have confronted you already and told you she wanted him. Or he would have slipped up and left a love letter on the kitchen table. Personally, I think you are extrapolating from some flirting to something that isn't there. What woman is going to spend time with a guy who is all hat and no cattle.


Yes great points. I have to get closure, but he does know I'm very aware of whatever it is now. And he trusts that I can find ways to find out. But yes, the ipad. A taunt? Absolutely feels that way. Lets see if he keeps leaving it out when he returns from this trip.


----------



## Rus47

statuscheck said:


> Yes great points. I have to get closure, but he does know I'm very aware of whatever it is now. And he trusts that I can find ways to find out. But yes, the ipad. A taunt? Absolutely feels that way. Lets see if he keeps leaving it out when he returns from this trip.


Wife n I have two Ipads, 3 iphones, two computers. They are all full of junk from when we first bought them. We are very bad about purging stuff. Your husband must be really organized to clean it. Btw we use one anothers electronics interchangeably. Our passwords are the same.


----------



## statuscheck

statuscheck said:


> Yes great points. I have to get closure, but he does know I'm very aware of whatever it is now. And he trusts that I can find ways to find out. But yes, the ipad. A taunt? Absolutely feels that way. Lets see if he keeps leaving it out when he returns from this trip.





Rus47 said:


> Wife n I have two Ipads, 3 iphones, two computers. They are all full of junk from when we first bought them. We are very bad about purging stuff. Your husband must be really organized to clean it. Btw we use one anothers electronics interchangeably. Our passwords are the same.


That's so sweet. I'm not kidding. I love that. I aspire to have that kind of relationship.


----------



## Beach123

You do realize do t you - that he would owe you spousal support if you divorce? Have you checked on the laws in your area? Would you get half of all assets should you divorce?

abd yes, he’s completely inappropriate - and shows no boundaries. He probably likes the ego boosts.

but a 17 year old girl sucking on a long lollipop standing in front of him - while he is just staring her down is completely icky! And while all the adults watched too! He didn’t walk away, he didn’t stop any of it… that is just GROSS a on his part!

id check with an atty - at minimum - to see what you’re entitled to! And I would definitely consider leaving! He’s harming your marriage by having no boundaries and by using body language to invite in inappropriate situations!

i would be grossed out sleeping with someone like that at night!


----------



## Jimi007

A friend of mine hired a PI when he found a burner phone in one of his wife's shoes in her closet. He was charged 120$ an hour. Inside of 2 weeks he had all of the proof he needed to file for divorce.


----------



## Beach123

None of these women would be interacting inappropriately with him if he wasn’t sending out signals with giving them a huge green light!
He likely needs the ego boosts and has no boundaries.
These aren’t things you can change for him.
He’s also not likely to ever change anything as long as he’s comfortable.
People mainly change when they are uncomfortable.

I also support going the PI route. You need some solid info.

do you have any cameras in your home? If you had them - would you see anything in his phone that may help you if the cameras could pick up on what he’s doing when you’re not paying attention?


----------



## Rus47

Jimi007 said:


> A friend of mine hired a PI when he found a burner phone in one of his wife's shoes in her closet. He was charged 120$ an hour. Inside of 2 weeks he had all of the proof he needed to file for divorce.


Do you know what his bill was? Could imagine north of $2400 would be reasonable, presume the PI wasn't working just your friend's case. Even that would be worth it to settle something OP has been concerned about for 15 years.

OTOH, the existence of the burned phone is really all the "proof" needed. He could have filed with a clear conscience and in most jurisdictions the court cares nothing about the circumstances.


----------



## Rus47

Beach123 said:


> i would be grossed out sleeping with someone like that at night!


Especially since all he is doing at night ( or any other time ) is sleeping. Recall he has been very lacking in the romance department for nearly all of their marriage. To the point OP asked him if he was gay.


----------



## Jimi007

Rus47 said:


> Do you know what his bill was? Could imagine north of $2400 would be reasonable, presume the PI wasn't working just your friend's case. Even that would be worth it to settle something OP has been concerned about for 15 years.
> 
> OTOH, the existence of the burned phone is really all the "proof" needed. He could have filed with a clear conscience and in most jurisdictions the court cares nothing about the circumstances.


The PI got pictures and video of his wife and AP together. It was her boss. The PI also gained access to the burner phone, so he got all the texts and emails. It was an android phone. He said it was the best 2800 he ever spent. Well worth it. 

I'm going to ask him if I can post his story 
Maybe it would help someone else


----------



## TRy

statuscheck said:


> Yes great points. I have to get closure, but he does know I'm very aware of whatever it is now. And he trusts that I can find ways to find out. But yes, the ipad. A taunt? Absolutely feels that way. Lets see if he keeps leaving it out when he returns from this trip.


In all these years of suspicion by you, you have nothing. Each example given by you consist of such low level things as the other woman flipped her hair from across the room, sucked on a lollipop, or asked a question to a group that mentioned that she lived across the street. You even consider him leaving out an electronic device where you find nothing to be taunting you. Missing are any examples of inappropriate actions that others in the room see.

With all due respect, I think that the issue is with you. If you read any of my thousands of posts on this site, you will see that I have never posted such a thing before, so I do I do not say such things lightly.


----------



## LisaDiane

MichelleMyBelle said:


> Like you, *I was also accused of using my husband as a meal ticket.* So again, thanks to you and anyone else who chooses not to judge a complete stranger on an Internet forum, but instead to be helpful. 😊


When did someone say that, because I didn't see that at all in your thread...?


----------



## jlg07

MichelleMyBelle said:


> .I considered putting a VAR in the car too, but in some states you can get into trouble for that. It depends on where you live.


This is just so that YOU get information -- it is NOT something you can use in your divorce, and in fact you should NEVER tell them that you had this and recorded them. If they ask how did you find out or how did you know, just tell them it's none of their business. BUT of course before you confront (if you found information from the VAR), make sure you remove it from the car or the areas where they talk on the phone....


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

LisaDiane said:


> When did someone say that, because I didn't see that at all in your thread...?


It was implied several times that I'm only with him because I have no job and nowhere else to live. Not explicitly stated, but it was implied. 
I don't want to hijack this thread with that, though.


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

TRy said:


> In all these years of suspicion by you, you have nothing. Each example given by you consist of such low level things as the other woman flipped her hair from across the room, sucked on a lollipop, or asked a question to a group that mentioned that she lived across the street. You even consider him leaving out an electronic device where you find nothing to be taunting you. Missing are any examples of inappropriate actions that others in the room see.
> 
> With all due respect, I think that the issue is with you. If you read any of my thousands of posts on this site, you will see that I have never posted such a thing before, so I do I do not say such things lightly.


You make some valid points, but the thing with the lollipop was just weird and creepy (the girl is still a minor).


----------



## LisaDiane

MichelleMyBelle said:


> It was implied several times that I'm only with him because I have no job and nowhere else to live. Not explicitly stated, but it was implied.
> I don't want to hijack this thread with that, though.


I don't believe it was implied like that at all...I think people were trying to help you have more options and choices, which you seemed to reject.
And I would have asked you on your own thread, but you closed it to anymore posts. If you are going to accuse posters, who took alot of time to try to advise you, of something that harsh and hateful, it should be able to be questioned somewhere.

\\END threadjack\\


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

LisaDiane said:


> I don't believe it was implied like that at all...I think people were trying to help you have more options and choices, which you seemed to reject.
> And I would have asked you on your own thread, but you closed it to anymore posts. If you are going to accuse posters, who took alot of time to try to advise you, of something that harsh and hateful, it should be able to be questioned somewhere.
> 
> \\END threadjack\\


I didn't reject anything. I graciously accepted the advice that I was given...or didn't you notice that? I closed it because I had other things I needed to do, nothing more.

I also needed time to think about continuing my job search and to consider all the feedback I received. It wasn't personal. 
I didn't "accuse" anybody of anything at all. And harsh and hateful? You're the one who is coming across that way. 
I never interacted with you, so why are you coming at me this way?


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

Oh, just to add...maybe my comment above was a bit snarky, but I came on this thread to seek advice and support, not to be berated and talked down to. 

So I apologize for how my comment came across, honestly. But my point still stands...some people were helpful, while others wanted to focus on my unemployment and ignore my purpose for being here, which is my husband's possible infidelity.


----------



## TRy

MichelleMyBelle said:


> You make some valid points, but the thing with the lollipop was just weird and creepy (the girl is still a minor).


How is it that in a room full of people the OP was the only one that saw it the way that the OP saw it? The OP has a whole lot of nothings that in rooms full of people only the OP sees the cheating.


----------



## Beach123

She never said she saw the cheating. She has stated that in each case their is evidence that is suspicious.
Ask any detective about suspicious evidence - once it adds up you can draw the conclusion.


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

TRy said:


> How is it that in a room full of people the OP was the only one that saw it the way that the OP saw it? The OP has a whole lot of nothings that in rooms full of people only the OP sees the cheating.


The hair flip at the sports bar was no big deal, as I told her. Maybe with the lollipop incident (don't know what else to call it without adding to the "yuck" factor) there might be something to that, though. 

Not sure 🤔. I think in that situation (correct me if I'm wrong, Status Check) that she said the adults looked uncomfortable but said nothing.
It seems that her husband might have a history of acting inappropriately, however. So we don't know if he is actually cheating or not, but his actions make her uncomfortable.


----------



## Beach123

That’s why the OP stated she is trying to find the truth.


----------



## TRy

MichelleMyBelle said:


> The hair flip at the sports bar was no big deal, as I told her. Maybe with the lollipop incident (don't know what else to call it without adding to the "yuck" factor) there might be something to that, though.
> 
> Not sure 🤔. I think in that situation (correct me if I'm wrong, Status Check) that she said the adults looked uncomfortable but said nothing.
> It seems that her husband might have a history of acting inappropriately, however. So we don't know if he is actually cheating or not, but his actions make her uncomfortable.


I am correcting you because nowhere does the OP state that anyone but her was uncomfortable.

In the 17 year old lollipop matter the OP said that “I kept waiting for the parents to get embarassed and say something! They didn't. She just stared him down and kept sucking and licking. It was disgusting. No one wanted to admit what was going on b/c she was just a girl. HE should have stood up and walked away. I finally said, "Ok,, ok, that's enough!" and stood between them. Everyone acted like this was all innocent silliness.” Again, nowhere does the OP even claim that anyone else but her was uncomfortable. When you consider that all of the OP’s claims are only the OP’s point of view, and even by her own admission she is the only one seeing it, you have to ask is everyone else wrong and only the OP is right?

If after so many years of marriage the examples given where no one else ever agrees with her are all the OP’s has got, the OP has nothing.


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

TRy said:


> Per your request, I am correcting you because you are wrong.
> 
> In the 17 year old lollipop matter the OP said that “I kept waiting for the parents to get embarassed and say something! They didn't. She just stared him down and kept sucking and licking. It was disgusting. No one wanted to admit what was going on b/c she was just a girl. HE should have stood up and walked away. I finally said, "Ok,, ok, that's enough!" and stood between them. Everyone acted like this was all innocent silliness.” Nowhere does the OP even claim that anyone else but her was uncomfortable. When you consider that all of the OP’s claims are only the OP’s point of view, and even by her own admission she is the only one seeing it, you have to ask is everyone else wrong and only the OP is right?
> 
> If after so many years of marriage the examples given where no one else ever agrees with her are all the OP’s has got, the OP has nothing.


Hmm...I remember reading all that. Maybe Status Check might return to this thread at some point? It was a rather graphic description. We weren't there, so who knows what really happened? There are different ways to look at this, perhaps.


----------



## statuscheck

Beach123 said:


> You do realize do t you - that he would owe you spousal support if you divorce? Have you checked on the laws in your area? Would you get half of all assets should you divorce?
> 
> abd yes, he’s completely inappropriate - and shows no boundaries. He probably likes the ego boosts.
> 
> but a 17 year old girl sucking on a long lollipop standing in front of him - while he is just staring her down is completely icky! And while all the adults watched too! He didn’t walk away, he didn’t stop any of it… that is just GROSS a on his part!
> 
> id check with an atty - at minimum - to see what you’re entitled to! And I would definitely consider leaving! He’s harming your marriage by having no boundaries and by using body language to invite in inappropriate situations!
> 
> i would be grossed out sleeping with someone like that at night!


@Beach123 yes I am grossed out. That's cathartic to say! Yes I am so grossed out 😔 Have been for so long, but the redeeming qualities are just that, and I stay on and hope that is all just sloppiness on his part - and sleaziness, but with no contact. Ironically that 17 yr old now works in his work world all these years later.... 
And earlier replies picked up on my resentment of him and you can see why I have that. 

The guys posting seem to think there would be additional overt signs if he were having full blown affairs. Maybe they're right in interpreting his behavior as wrong, immature and just ego boosting. He may need some serious psychological help. Anyway I'm analyzing his every move now (to the extent I'm able which is limited) but have to keep that discreet. 

Thanks so much for weighing in. I really appreciate all the time; and really I'm sorry we're all here because everyone must have been though something difficult to be here. And many may be on the other side of things finally.


----------



## statuscheck

Beach123 said:


> None of these women would be interacting inappropriately with him if he wasn’t sending out signals with giving them a huge green light!
> He likely needs the ego boosts and has no boundaries.
> These aren’t things you can change for him.
> He’s also not likely to ever change anything as long as he’s comfortable.
> People mainly change when they are uncomfortable.
> 
> I also support going the PI route. You need some solid info.
> 
> do you have any cameras in your home? If you had them - would you see anything in his phone that may help you if the cameras could pick up on what he’s doing when you’re not paying attention?


@Beach123 ok wow this might be just the thing! Cameras in his study! This is where he spends a lot of time and if he were talking to someone regularly this is the place other than his car. 
I don't think he'd need a burner phone because he has this encrypted app (for work) but I'll look for one.


----------



## statuscheck

LisaDiane said:


> When did someone say that, because I didn't see that at all in your thread...?


an early respnder said I see him as a meal ticket, based on my saying I'd have to figure out how to live on my own if this led to divorce.. Just someone making a lot of assumptions. I hadn't yet written that I contribute financially and like @MichelleMyBelle in invaluable other ways as well


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## statuscheck

TRy said:


> I am correcting you because nowhere does the OP state that anyone but her was uncomfortable.
> 
> In the 17 year old lollipop matter the OP said that “I kept waiting for the parents to get embarassed and say something! They didn't. She just stared him down and kept sucking and licking. It was disgusting. No one wanted to admit what was going on b/c she was just a girl. HE should have stood up and walked away. I finally said, "Ok,, ok, that's enough!" and stood between them. Everyone acted like this was all innocent silliness.” Again, nowhere does the OP even claim that anyone else but her was uncomfortable. When you consider that all of the OP’s claims are only the OP’s point of view, and even by her own admission she is the only one seeing it, you have to ask is everyone else wrong and only the OP is right?
> 
> If after so many years of marriage the examples given where no one else ever agrees with her are all the OP’s has got, the OP has nothing.


Do you kmow @TRy I came to this site actually hoping to have people say gosh no ` no problem here with your man, but unfortunately you're the only person who has said it.


----------



## statuscheck

statuscheck said:


> Do you kmow @TRy I came to this site actually hoping to have people say gosh no ` no problem here with your man, but unfortunately you're the only person who has said it.


I did include minor incidents just to show that in between more serious incidents there's been this tacky/ immature/ disrespectful/ gross behavior / and as much as I wish you were right there have been too many things from the time we just dated through now. I wouldn't even mind a flirtatious husband. If its done in good fun to make everyone laugh and not cringe I think that would fine and a sign of good social skills. But what he does is on the sly and almost like a split personality, so it's the constant sneakiness of it, together that it's with inappropriate people (my relatives etc) that raises the red flags that he has a real problem. Which is then of course my problem. Which is why I am here.


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## Beach123

I would get prepared - just in case - by establishing credit cards in your name only… and a few bank accounts that ONLY have your name in them.
I needed to move money quickly one Friday afternoon after I realized my then Husband was going out of state again to meet his OW.
I moved money so I had some sense of security and a safety net in case he tried to bully me or swiped all the available money once he found out I was divorcing him.


----------



## statuscheck

TRy said:


> How is it that in a room full of people the OP was the only one that saw it the way that the OP saw it? The OP has a whole lot of nothings that in rooms full of people only the OP sees the cheating.


I'm trying to envision people in the room saying something....? How would that work. With my sister in law, it was just the two of them in the room when I left. With the flirty mom a few weeks ago, we were among complete strangers. At a family reunion with my cousin's wife, my brother, sister and BIL and I all stood there staring at the two of them in disbelief. No, they didn't get down on the ground and start having sex in front of all of us. Is that what you need for proof of indiscretion or inappropriate behavior? It was just wrong and cringy -- too intimate of a conversation, with the two of them oblivious to everyone around them, and not noticing we were all leaving and it was time to go. It's constant stuff like that and then also the women who hate on me after he seems to have gotten their hopes up. That was my actual OP -- that I can't go on with this game where the subjects of his flirtations see me as being the way and I suddenly have an enemy on my hands when I've done absolutely nothing wrong.


----------



## statuscheck

statuscheck said:


> I'm trying to envision people in the room saying something....? How would that work. With my sister in law, it was just the two of them in the room when I left. With the flirty mom a few weeks ago, we were among complete strangers. At a family reunion with my cousin's wife, my brother, sister and BIL and I all stood there staring at the two of them in disbelief. No, they didn't get down on the ground and start having sex in front of all of us. Is that what you need for proof of indiscretion or inappropriate behavior? It was just wrong and cringy -- too intimate of a conversation, with the two of them oblivious to everyone around them, and not noticing we were all leaving and it was time to go. It's constant stuff like that and then also the women who hate on me after he seems to have gotten their hopes up. That was my actual OP -- that I can't go on with this game where the subjects of his flirtations see me as being the way and I suddenly have an enemy on my hands when I've done absolutely nothing wrong.


the lollipop girl is/was very precocious and beautiful. And her parents are our close friends and they're free spirited types trying to raise her in the same way. The mom is from a country where sex is less taboo than here and shockingly sexual behavior is often celebrated. Everyone in the room certainly saw the girl as just being mischevious. It was one of those awkward things where I - and everyone else I'm guessing - tried pretending it wasn't happening. I know the dad was uncomfortable and was about to say something. As for my husband watching, what would people say to him? To call him out would be to call the daughter out too -- their etiquette dictated that we let the girl be a girl and the grownups should be grownups. It was all very very awkward - for everyone. That's the problem! My husband is constantly in these situations, and as a result I am as well. I'm so sick of it!!! Does this make sense now?


----------



## bobert

MichelleMyBelle said:


> It was implied several times that I'm only with him because I have no job and nowhere else to live. Not explicitly stated, but it was implied.
> I don't want to hijack this thread with that, though.


I don't think that's why people brought it up. I asked about it because divorce is a lot harder when you are reliant on your spouse. If you find out your husband is cheating, you may feel stuck in your marriage due to you not working. People were just trying to help you have options. 

My wife is a SAHM, so it's not like I'm against women staying home. The reason I said this OP is using her husband as a meal ticket is because she flat out said she would love it if her husband left her for someone else or would love to divorce, but doesn't have the means to support herself.


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

bobert said:


> I don't think that's why people brought it up. I asked about it because divorce is a lot harder when you are reliant on your spouse. If you find out your husband is cheating, you may feel stuck in your marriage due to you not working. People were just trying to help you have options.
> 
> My wife is a SAHM, so it's not like I'm against women staying home. The reason I said this OP is using her husband as a meal ticket is because she flat out said she would love it if her husband left her for someone else or would love to divorce, but doesn't have the means to support herself.


Hi Bobert...no harm, no foul. I really do thank you for your great advice on the other thread. And you're right, I thought a lot about what you said.
So thanks again for your help (you can call it "tough love" maybe? 😊) My apologies for any misunderstanding on either side. 
And your wife is lucky to have a supportive, kind husband like you.


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

statuscheck said:


> the lollipop girl is/was very precocious and beautiful. And her parents are our close friends and they're free spirited types trying to raise her in the same way. The mom is from a country where sex is less taboo than here and shockingly sexual behavior is often celebrated. Everyone in the room certainly saw the girl as just being mischevious. It was one of those awkward things where I - and everyone else I'm guessing - tried pretending it wasn't happening. I know the dad was uncomfortable and was about to say something. As for my husband watching, what would people say to him? To call him out would be to call the daughter out too -- their etiquette dictated that we let the girl be a girl and the grownups should be grownups. It was all very very awkward - for everyone. That's the problem! My husband is constantly in these situations, and as a result I am as well. I'm so sick of it!!! Does this make sense now?


Wow, Status...that's crazy. Some parents don't discipline their kids or teach them what boundaries are, so then we end up with situations like what you describe. 
The girl seems to have been testing the limits (it happens sometimes) but it's also possible that she may have been groomed or abused as well. 
Just throwing that possibility out there...some kids act out sexually because things have happened to them. 

And like you said, their culture might play a part too. Only speculation on my part so take it with a grain of salt. 
If all of this happened though, you do need to talk to your husband. He can find himself in trouble...not so much with adult women, but girls that young.


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

statuscheck said:


> I did include minor incidents just to show that in between more serious incidents there's been this tacky/ immature/ disrespectful/ gross behavior / and as much as I wish you were right there have been too many things from the time we just dated through now. I wouldn't even mind a flirtatious husband. If its done in good fun to make everyone laugh and not cringe I think that would fine and a sign of good social skills. But what he does is on the sly and almost like a split personality, so it's the constant sneakiness of it, together that it's with inappropriate people (my relatives etc) that raises the red flags that he has a real problem. Which is then of course my problem. Which is why I am here.


The lollipop incident had me like 🤮. You named other incidents of disrespect, but that was the most creepy. You're right...sometimes things are not always so obvious to some people in some instances. If he's just a friendly, jovial guy, that should be no problem.
We probably all know somebody who can make everyone smile just by being in their company. 

It's when you notice other things that don't seem quite right. The interaction between them was unspoken, there was nothing subtle about it, and I think you were right to be creeped out by that incident. 
She might have a woman's body but she is still under 18. The parents need to wake up.


----------



## Beach123

He may have had an encounter previously with lollipop gal before this episode - and she thought he would be ok with it.
Speculation, I know - but two people with no boundaries will act this way - like anything goes and they don’t notice any one else is around.
I really think your husband has NO boundaries and is on the prowl - just behind your back - per se’
The hard part for me having been M to a cheater for 27 years was always wondering who had pulled a fast one on me. Obviously my H thought HE was… but looking back there were SO MANY i always wondered about.

he would never tell me - I have proof on two - but I always wondered why he stayed married if he wanted to cheat.
He said he loves being married! And I countered with “you just don’t know how to be faithful when you’re married”. So there is that!


----------



## Openminded

Beach123 said:


> He may have had an encounter previously with lollipop gal before this episode - and she thought he would be ok with it.
> Speculation, I know - but two people with no boundaries will act this way - like anything goes and they don’t notice any one else is around.
> I really think your husband has NO boundaries and is on the prowl - just behind your back - per se’
> The hard part for me having been M to a cheater for 27 years was always wondering who had pulled a fast one on me. Obviously my H thought HE was… but looking back there were SO MANY i always wondered about.
> 
> he would never tell me - I have proof on two - but I always wondered why he stayed married if he wanted to cheat.
> He said he loves being married! And I countered with “you just don’t know how to be faithful when you’re married”. So there is that!


They want to stay married (my exH fought the divorce) because they want it all.


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

Beach123 said:


> He may have had an encounter previously with lollipop gal before this episode - and she thought he would be ok with it.
> Speculation, I know - but two people with no boundaries will act this way - like anything goes and they don’t notice any one else is around.
> I really think your husband has NO boundaries and is on the prowl - just behind your back - per se’
> The hard part for me having been M to a cheater for 27 years was always wondering who had pulled a fast one on me. Obviously my H thought HE was… but looking back there were SO MANY i always wondered about.
> 
> he would never tell me - I have proof on two - but I always wondered why he stayed married if he wanted to cheat.
> He said he loves being married! And I countered with “you just don’t know how to be faithful when you’re married”. So there is that!


Agreed, Beach123. I hope Status Check's husband is not the type to take advantage of a kid...and that's what she is at 17, just a kid.
We don't know (and we should hope) that he would never do that. In my own case, I have no hard proof of my H being a cheater, but I can't say 100% that he isn't one either. 
Some folks have all the proof they need. It's a bit more tricky for others because we're bad spies. 😂 I would be nervous as heck about being caught spying, and what if I can't prove anything?


----------



## statuscheck

Openminded said:


> They want to stay married (my exH fought the divorce) because they want it all.


yes openminded that's it
I make his life so easy. Yes its true he's the primary breadwinner now, but at one time I was (pre-kids). I was a SAHM for 10 years but now back in the workforce (part time) and back in school and still take care of most everything so the family has a good stable quality of life. His boundary-lessness is our weak link. The low functioning side of things.


----------



## TRy

statuscheck said:


> I'm trying to envision people in the room saying something....? How would that work.


In many of your examples there are friends and family around. The way that this works is that among your friends and family you would have real friends or close family that would have taken you aside in person, called you, or texted you, so that they could discuss your husband’s alleged inappropriate actions; they would have been there for you. If that had ever happened it is only logical that you would have told us, yet you never even once told us of such substantiation.



statuscheck said:


> No, they didn't get down on the ground and start having sex in front of all of us. Is that what you need for proof of indiscretion or inappropriate behavior?


Nope. But there are many things between getting “down on the ground and start having sex in front of all of us” and nothing.


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## Beach123

> From Try
> The way that this works is that among your friends and family you would have real friends or close family that would have taken you aside in person, called you, or texted you, so that they could discuss your husband’s alleged inappropriate actions; they would have been there for you.


not necessarily. It doesn’t always work that way. Especially if her husband has a high profile job - and if he is intimidating - either in his attitude or his earnings.

many “friends and family” don’t want to be “the one” that exposes the ugly truth that everyone witnesses. They expect that it’s possible the wife “knows” but doesn’t intend to change her lifestyle = so they say nothing.

…until the divorce is announced…then there are times when friends and relatives begin to tell about what experiences they’ve had/witnessed.

many times I’ve thought back about situations and pondered “why didn’t they tell me when I didn’t see it?” It’s because they don’t want to.


----------



## TRy

Beach123 said:


> many “friends and family” don’t want to be “the one” that exposes the ugly truth that everyone witnesses. They expect that it’s possible the wife “knows” but doesn’t intend to change her lifestyle = so they say nothing..


I specified “real friends” and “close family”. Also people are more open to discussing inappropriate actions, then they are to exposing an actual affair.

Regardless, the OP is talking divorce, and others on this site are encouraging it. Divorce could have a profoundly negative impact on the OP’s life. Based on the OP’s weak and non-persuasive evidence, I would not advise her that she throw away her marriage without better confirmation of cheating.


----------



## Beach123

Why not? She unhappy wondering what his truth is. And he certainly isn’t taking care of HER needs. She’s sad and feeling unfulfilled with him as her partner.

since she’s missing feeling safe and secure within her marriage - there’s no reason to continue feeling unsafe and lacking the security from a husband. He should be willing to do anything to help her feel safe and secure - but he’s been doing opposite…actual cheating or not.


----------



## TRy

Beach123 said:


> since she’s missing feeling safe and secure within her marriage - there’s no reason to continue feeling unsafe and lacking the security from a husband. He should be willing to do anything to help her feel safe and secure - but he’s been doing opposite…actual cheating or not.


Many of the examples given by the OP present unreasonable and paranoid interpretations by the OP of the situation in order for the OP not to feel safe. For example in one case the OP stated a woman “asked the question of the organizers, "Is it ok for my son to just walk here? You see, I just live right across the street...." I decided this is a sensible question but then my alarm bells went off. And holy **** I realized she may have said that to signal to interested dads that yes she just lives across the street while they have two hours to kill waiting for their kids to finish up with rehearsals. Right? Or am I just paranoid? Welcome to my daily inner dialog/dilemma/torment.” If this is the OP’s daily thought process, I do not see any reasonable way the OP’s husband can make her feel safe.


----------



## statuscheck

TRy said:


> Many of the examples given by the OP present unreasonable and paranoid interpretations by the OP of the situation in order for the OP not to feel safe. For example in one case the OP stated a woman “asked the question of the organizers, "Is it ok for my son to just walk here? You see, I just live right across the street...." I decided this is a sensible question but then my alarm bells went off. And holy **** I realized she may have said that to signal to interested dads that yes she just lives across the street while they have two hours to kill waiting for their kids to finish up with rehearsals. Right? Or am I just paranoid? Welcome to my daily inner dialog/dilemma/torment.” If this is the OP’s daily thought process, I do not see any reasonable way the OP’s husband can make her feel safe.


I hear you @TRy but @Beach123 is more accurate.
The mom living across the street example does sound weak without context.
I'm very wordy so didn't want to give that but will try. Not to convince you bc I hear you're trying to help but have biases/experiences that don't match my situation. My family and friends are not going to say anything, I can't imagine they would. In my world(s) I really can't picture someone saying anything. but I am going to ask now before I see lawyer etc. Social interactions aren't black and white. No one is going to tell me anything since social interactions are complex and varied.
The people in question are people whose lives revolve around parties, meetings, gatherings, fundraisers, policymakers, philanthropists, etc etc. No one is going to call someone out for flirting in these settings. In fact it adds to the drama and fun for some people. 
And as I've said the way he flirts seems to make the target feel unique and special, like there's a special secret between the two of them. Others observing this can easily question their own judgment. It's a one-off for them. 
Not for me... not for him.
Btw I am feeling socially isolated. I think you missed the posts where I say how his behavior alienates me from family and friends.

I had to tell my husband to "please behave at this parent meeting". "I really need to connect with these parents for carpooling etc." "If you do your weird staring stuff, you will alienate me - and more importantly our child." He promised to behave!
I had to say this because we'd had massive arguments over his behavior in the past month to the point that we both agree there's a big problem. Originating with him.
At the summer camp of this group for our child, the professional leader of this group walked out on stage. She's super talented, friendly, and a great role model to all the kids, and happens to be young and gorgeous. My husband, sitting beside me, actually gasped audibly when she walked out on stage. It was so embarassing. Later I told him -- Do Not Flirt With Her! You will embarass yourself and our family.
Part of our argument that was constructive was I was able to tell him that he may think he's being subtle with his flirting but he's not at all. Everyone can see it. I asked him why he doesn't care. In other threads about this problem, the OPs have the same problem: the spouse denies it, and in the face of evidence denies or comes up with flimsy excuse.
We'd been at a favorite restaurant and he was staring. When I followed his eyes of course I landed on a female server. Whatever. Business as usual. I ignored it, determined not to let him ruin my evening.
But he kept staring / looking. So what happens? She comes over to our table. She slowly, quietly, refills our water. She's not even bussing tables, that wasn't her job. She wasn't even working in our section. She lingered. She hung around. Another staff person came over and shooed her away. 
When I asked him gently just to try to understand his crazy a__, what are you thinking/doing in these moments? He couldn't deny she responded to his looking. He said he wasn't trying to get her attention. 

He said (drumroll please because I am guessing others have heard this before): "I just stare into space." "I've always done that and you know it." "I stare randomly and get lost in my thoughts." "If people interpret this as flirting I can't help that." "I am not trying to flirt." "I don't want anyone else's attention, just yours." He is people-pleaser so knows all the right things to say.....
I said: "Yes you can". "This has been getting us into difficult social situations for decades." "If you really don't know you're doing it then you must get some professional help to talk about this persistent behavior that for us has very negative consequences." 
Ah, except that why stop when for him alone it is not be a negative consequence.... Only when I'm there.
Even our children admit he can be cringy but they don't come report to me his behavior.
They do not defend him though. And they listen knowingly when I have to confront him. If they thought I was wrong they would intervene, trust me.

Yes my husband holds a high level job and role in the community. He's a warm, intelligent person. Most people like him a lot or if they don't like him they admire him. I'm viewed as having similar skills/standing. We don't care about status for our happiness and haven't sought it, but have it from hard work, volunteering and showing up and contributing. I am the primary ambassador of our family, though, so all he has to do is walk into situations I've already established, and shine.
So family and friends are not going to tell me about him. Until after the divorce. Maybe not even then because people will figure I knew what I'd gotten in to.


----------



## TRy

statuscheck said:


> I hear you @TRy but @Beach123 is more accurate.
> The mom living across the street example does sound weak without context.


No amount of context will change the fact that the story is weak. Do you really believe that the woman across the street asked the question in order to lure any random father who might be interested to knock on her door and ask to kill 2 hours with her? It makes no sense.


statuscheck said:


> the way he flirts seems to make the target feel unique and special, like there's a special secret between the two of them. Others observing this can easily question their own judgment. It's a one-off for them.


You say that he flirts by staring at them and this is supposed to make them feel “unique and special, like there’s a special secrete between the two of them”. Do you think that maybe you might be reading too much into this?


statuscheck said:


> But he kept staring / looking. So what happens? She comes over to our table. She slowly, quietly, refills our water. She's not even bussing tables, that wasn't her job. She wasn't even working in our section. She lingered. She hung around. Another staff person came over and shooed her away.


So in your view, without talking to your husband, without the server knowing that he is educated or has a high paying position, the server will see a short, balding, middle aged man staring at her from across the room and will be instantly attracted to this babe magnet? Again, do you think that maybe you might be reading too much into this?


----------



## Beach123

At an early age - my brother stated with conviction - that it IS eye contact that makes the difference when picking up any woman.
He said you do it, you keep the gaze - and you have the gal.


----------



## statuscheck

Beach123 said:


> At an early age - my brother stated with conviction - that it IS eye contact that makes the difference when picking up any woman.
> He said you do it, you keep the gaze - and you have the gal.


yes Beach 123 this is what he does. Your brother is right.
There are other TAM threads where spouses are doing this staring/eye contact thing as my husband does, with the same results he gets. Everyone on those threads advised the posters to leave the person doing this, and that anyone who does this WILL cheat if they haven't already. My husband already cheated, with proof, before we married. Those posters feel the same ways I do. It's a thing. 

Not sure why TRy is fixated on telling me I'm wrong. Feels like gaslighting. Something I'm saying is annoying him. I think he and I are operating in two different cultures, or maybe he doesn't know women very well? Women eat this attention up - regardless of the age. My husband is more handsome too than I let on - and he has a vulnerability about him that makes people want to look after him. That totally lures the women in. I am not imagining it. What was helpful but sends me back into my anxiety loop is TRy's recognizing how much is at stake for me if we divorce. He got that absolutely right. You got absolutely right that strong relationships are characterized by trust and security. I feel other things for him - friendship for sure, history, admiration - but not trust, security (other than financial but I'm willing to sacrifice that temporarily) or a sense of peace. 
Thank you for taking time for this.


----------



## Rus47

Beach123 said:


> At an early age - my brother stated with conviction - that it IS eye contact that makes the difference when picking up any woman.
> He said you do it, you keep the gaze - and you have the gal.


Your brother could make billions teaching young single guys the “trick”. When I stare my wife in the eyes the response is “what??!!??”


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## MichelleMyBelle

Rus47 said:


> Your brother could make billions teaching young single guys the “trick”. When I stare my wife in the eyes the response is “what??!!??”


Too funny, Rus! You gotta learn to use your "masculine wiles" on your wife. 😂


----------



## Rus47

MichelleMyBelle said:


> Too funny, Rus! You gotta learn to use your "masculine wiles" on your wife. 😂


She reads me like a book.


----------



## MichelleMyBelle

Rus47 said:


> She reads me like a book.


Oh well, it was worth a shot, right? 😊 You have her and she has you!


----------



## Rus47

MichelleMyBelle said:


> Oh well, it was worth a shot, right? 😊 You have her and she has you!


Amen! For more than 50 years!


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## TRy

Statuscheck, do you believe that your husband had or went on to have an emotional or physical affair with the 17 year old, the bar girl that flipped her hair, the across the street mother, the server that beelined for your husband at the restaurant, or any of the others mentioned in your examples?


----------



## Beach123

^^^^ what difference does that make at this point? Stop with the second guessing her!
Read what she wrote! It’s consistent!
She doesn’t feel SAFE in her own marriage!
Why do you continue to encourage her to live in a marriage where she feels unsafe and unloved?


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## TRy

Beach123 said:


> ^^^^ what difference does that make at this point? Stop with the second guessing her!
> Read what she wrote! It’s consistent!
> She doesn’t feel SAFE in her own marriage!
> Why do you continue to encourage her to live in a marriage where she feels unsafe and unloved?


Stop trying to control the agenda. It is not your thread. The OP can decide for herself how to address my questions.

You and I see things very differently. You are all in pushing for divorce, while I want her to proceed with caution as divorce could be a one way street to a less happy life. I think she may take her husband’s good points for granted as she focuses on cheating that may not exist. There is so much better evidence in other threads than is offered here.

If she wants to be happier, I think that she should spend less time being angry at her husband for alleged unproven cheating, and more time working on making her marriage better. I have ideas for that if she would wish to explore that.


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## Beach123

So how do you suggest she feel safe and loved in this marriage when he doesn’t help her feel safe or loved?


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## Jimi007

TRy said:


> Stop trying to control the agenda. It is not your thread. The OP can decide for herself how to address my questions.
> 
> You and I see things very differently. You are all in pushing for divorce, while I want her to proceed with caution as divorce could be a one way street to a less happy life. I think she may take her husband’s good points for granted as she focuses on cheating that may not exist. There is so much better evidence in other threads than is offered here.
> 
> If she wants to be happier, I think that she should spend less time being angry at her husband for alleged unproven cheating, and more time working on making her marriage better. I have ideas for that if she would wish to explore that.


I'd have to agree...Too many on TAM rush to judgment... Divorce for flirting ? OP do you think maybe it's your own insecurities that are what's driving your jealousy 🤔?


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## Beach123

I seems disrespectful to the OP to keep discounting her feelings when she’s been consistent about how she feels in the marriage.

she can stay or go - whichever makes her happy. But to tell her she doesn’t feel the way she feels is really disrespectful.


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## TRy

Beach123 said:


> I seems disrespectful to the OP to keep discounting her feelings when she’s been consistent about how she feels in the marriage.
> 
> she can stay or go - whichever makes her happy. But to tell her she doesn’t feel the way she feels is really disrespectful.


The OP told me that she came here hoping that she would be told that she was wrong, so there is nothing disrespectful in doing that.

My wife is smart, educated, beautiful, slim, nice, friendly, and smiles all the time. It does not matter if it is a small child, an elderly person, everyone in between, or a dog, she will smile and be nice and friendly to them. This is just who she is.

Over the years, especially when we were younger, this would sometimes cause issues as men would sometimes misinterpreted her smiles and friendliness to be more than it was. When I was younger, I would get jealous and asked her to not smile so much around other men. Then one of my brothers told me to be careful what I wished for, as this friendly person that always smiles is who I married and was attracted to; he asked me did I really want to change that in her? I didn’t, and decided to change me and how I viewed these situations, and instead worked with my wife to better address dealing with men that misinterpreted her smiles. My happiness was ultimately my responsibility.

As a side note, just the other day a school friend of our now adult son saw me and my wife in a restaurant, happily came over to our table, and introduced my wife to his friends. Yes he said hi me too, but the focus was on my wife as they hugged and chatted with my wife. Her years of smiling and being nice to them had made my wife special to them. Now that we are older, I sit back and admire that this is my wife.


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## statuscheck

TRy said:


> Statuscheck, do you believe that your husband had or went on to have an emotional or physical affair with the 17 year old, the bar girl that flipped her hair, the across the street mother, the server that beelined for your husband at the restaurant, or any of the others mentioned in your examples?


No definitely not. These are simply examples of what he does in front of me, constantly.
The concern is that these micro interactions are practice for when he's on his own and looking to hook up. 
Reading other threads and from the feedback most everyone here has given me, TAM folks report that this need for validation does often lead to actual hooking up if not full blown affairs.


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## statuscheck

I hear you TRy and Beach123.
@TRy I believe I'm still with my husband after all his childishness because I do not take his good points for granted.
I fully understand what about him makes a good partner. 
I'm just not that partner who wants to say, well, we have a good life so he can get his jollies elsewhere as long as it doesn't interfere with me/us.
I am a physical tactile person. I like sex. I am warm and loving. If my husband and I are not compatible, in that he needs a stranger (clean slate maybe?) to feel sexy and attracted, then I need to restart my life while I can.
I can even go without the sex, if I feel we're all in with each other. All this flirty flirty eye contact and yuck makes me hate him. Many men would love to have what can provide. 
Everyone here weighing in are helping me reflect on a deeper level.
He is immature in that life things stress him out. Bills; failures; challenges; house repairs; etc. all stress him out unbelievably. He is not good at real life. Marriage is all about sharing this stuff. So I've always suspected he seeks others for stimulation because they don't represent stressors for him

Yes TRy I am interested in your advice.


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## Openminded

Unfortunately not everyone can adult well. Apparently he needs all those activities as an escape from real life. You’ll have to decide if he’s worth it. I stayed in a dysfunctional marriage for decades when I shouldn’t have. My only regret is that I didn’t get out much sooner than I did.


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## statuscheck

Jimi007 said:


> I'd have to agree...Too many on TAM rush to judgment... Divorce for flirting ? OP do you think maybe it's your own insecurities that are what's driving your jealousy 🤔?


no definitely not


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## statuscheck

statuscheck said:


> No definitely not. These are simply examples of what he does in front of me, constantly.
> The concern is that these micro interactions are practice for when he's on his own and looking to hook up.
> Reading other threads and from the feedback most everyone here has given me, TAM folks report that this need for validation does often lead to actual hooking up if not full blown affairs.


And yes there are other instances he could have easily hooked up when I'm not there. He can be away for weeks abroad with travel. He has lots of other opportunities if he has needed/wanted them. So the examples I gave are how he behaves regularly, and that if this is his normal, then what does someone like him do in the face of temptation? 

His friendliness etc. isn't like TRy's wife. It's intimate. Too intense; too invested. There's a difference between sincere warmth and a genuineness and vulnerability. People often think type of friendliness is directed at them personally, but he is that way with everyone. It's too much. Like others have said, its boundary-less. He tends to make friends with people who feel they own him or understand him better than anyone else. etc etc. People get possessive of him.
This isn't how I imagine TRy's wife presents (I am more like TRy's wife.) When we go out, I'm the one people are happy to see and hug, etc. Because I am warm and caring but have boundaries and am not inappropriate.


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## statuscheck

Openminded said:


> Unfortunately not everyone can adult well. Apparently he needs all those activities as an escape from real life. You’ll have to decide if he’s worth it. I stayed in a dysfunctional marriage for decades when I shouldn’t have. My only regret is that I didn’t get out much sooner than I did.


Yes Openminded
It's the escape. You've articulated it.
Others are an escape; even for a brief moment. 
And I resent needing to be escaped from when I feel I'm an excellent partner in most regards.


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## Openminded

statuscheck said:


> Yes Openminded
> It's the escape. You've articulated it.
> Others are an escape; even for a brief moment.
> And I resent needing to be escaped from when I feel I'm an excellent partner in most regards.


My exH was somewhat similar (although I had proof he cheated). I stayed for 45 years because I believed in marriage and I felt that with some work from each of us we could have a good marriage. But despite the changes I made, he never changed at all because he didn’t want to. He fought the divorce once he realized I was serious since a divorce was never part of his plan. He just wanted it all and didn’t understand why he couldn’t have it. Some people aren’t meant for marriage.


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## statuscheck

statuscheck said:


> Yes Openminded
> It's the escape. You've articulated it.
> Others are an escape; even for a brief moment.
> And I resent needing to be escaped from when I feel I'm an excellent partner in most regards.


I almost went to threads about Peter Pan syndrome but he doesn't have that, which I already know, but I thought something there might help with what to do when someone is stuck in an immature developmental phase.

He does do real life, but it weighs on him. It's not his comfort zone. I'm talking about the day to day tasks for living - paying bills, taking care of repairs, etc. So I pay the bills and take care of the house and find the people to take care of the house, schedule our medical appointments, make our car appointments etc. etc. 

He does do things around the house, mainly outdoors, but I take the initiative to get him or myself or someone else to do the things. He is responsive to the requests, but pretends not to have noticed the thing needed doing (avoidance).
He does do the taxes but that sends him into evil mode. He gets very ugly and I have to tell him to get a hold of himself -- everyone does taxes! He's not alone, not a martyr. 

Its possible he imagines briefly that other women are simply beautiful/sexy/appealing/beckoning, and don't have taxes to pay, or complain about anything, don't have bills or deadlines or bad bosses or difficult family members, etc etc. That somehow that woman, that seductive one over there, doesn't have to do real life. She's perfectly burden-free. 

That said, I can't precisely assess how high or low maintenance I am, right, but comparing myself with friends and family and acquaintances I'd say I'm lower maintenance overall than people I can compare myself with.


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## Beach123

My exH had no boundary - and loved to rescue gals. So he would pretend to have a business trip - and secretly be meeting up with some gal to rescue her… generally from the same abuse he created at home with us.

when I could see his pattern and what a farce he was - I divorced him. But wasting 27 years with his pretending to be someone he wasn’t - was tough to take.

I was raised to never divorce…I don’t believe anymore that people should stay married while enduring scenarios that hurt over and over.

the betrayal is real - when it’s subtle but consistent.


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## TRy

statuscheck said:


> I hear you TRy and Beach123.
> @TRy
> Yes TRy I am interested in your advice.


There came a point in my marriage where things got stale. Not enough sex or physical intimacy. Forced sex and intimacy is not the same. So we decided on a weekly date night. The first date night did not go well. We sat in a club where my wife and I dresses like Soccer parents and talking about our home and kids issues.

I asked my wife how come her friends only hit the gym and dress sexy after they get divorced and not before? Why is some guy that the divorced friend might meet at a bar being treated better than she treated her spouse? A similar thing could be said of divorced men. We needed to reinvent married person date night.

Below are some of our date night rules:
1) Date night needed to be a priority. When coworkers know about date night, they tend to respect it and tell others that you are busy.
2) We need to shop together for date night clothing, where nothing is bought without the others OK. When my wife said that an outfit was too sexy and that she would be embarrassed if she ran into a friend dressed like that, I told that this was the look that I was looking for.
3) On date night we would not be allowed to talk about our kids or home life. We were to regularly ask ourselves, if I were on a date with someone else, would I talk about this? If not, then do not talk about it on our dates.
4) Recognize the importance of eye contact with each other on dates.
5) Recognize the importance of listening to each other.
6) Plan dates around things that you both want to do. We have gone on many dates to fun places such as concerts. We have stayed at many local hotels. We do things together that we may not normally do.
7) Touch each other every chance you get. Hold hands, put your hand on each other’s shoulders, give neck rubs, dance (we suck at it but there is a lot of touching), etc.
8) Snuggle.
9) Sex must always be on the table as a viable but not guaranteed goal.
10) Read “His Needs Her Needs” and apply what you learn.

That is enough for now.


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## statuscheck

TRy said:


> There came a point in my marriage where things got stale. Not enough sex or physical intimacy. Forced sex and intimacy is not the same. So we decided on a weekly date night. The first date night did not go well. We sat in a club where my wife and I dresses like Soccer parents and talking about our home and kids issues.
> 
> I asked my wife how come her friends only hit the gym and dress sexy after they get divorced and not before? Why is some guy that the divorced friend might meet at a bar being treated better than she treated her spouse? A similar thing could be said of divorced men. We needed to reinvent married person date night.
> 
> Below are some of our date night rules:
> 1) Date night needed to be a priority. When coworkers know about date night, they tend to respect it and tell others that you are busy.
> 2) We need to shop together for date night clothing, where nothing is bought without the others OK. When my wife said that an outfit was too sexy and that she would be embarrassed if she ran into a friend dressed like that, I told that this was the look that I was looking for.
> 3) On date night we would not be allowed to talk about our kids or home life. We were to regularly ask ourselves, if I were on a date with someone else, would I talk about this? If not, then do not talk about it on our dates.
> 4) Recognize the importance of eye contact with each other on dates.
> 5) Recognize the importance of listening to each other.
> 6) Plan dates around things that you both want to do. We have gone on many dates to fun places such as concerts. We have stayed at many local hotels. We do things together that we may not normally do.
> 7) Touch each other every chance you get. Hold hands, put your hand on each other’s shoulders, give neck rubs, dance (we suck at it but there is a lot of touching), etc.
> 8) Snuggle.
> 9) Sex must always be on the table as a viable but not guaranteed goal.
> 10) Read “His Needs Her Needs” and apply what you learn.
> 
> That is enough for now.


These all sound like great ideas.
We do touch each other, hug, kiss goodnight, back scratches, back rubs. We do have dates. 
We're friends so these passing gestures are easy.
I know how to look sexy in his eyes and do this. I know what sort of outfit he thinks is sexy and I have same taste and I dress this way much of the time.
Yes I'd gained weight but Covid showed me how out of control that was getting! And how I was justifying it. I realized it was defensive. And I was feeling defensive. 
I've lost 35 pounds since February and do yoga almost every day. I actually didn't look fat before, just wide and bigger than I should. 
Believe me! Lingerie etc. - he's not into it and never has been but I wear nice things that look good on me. He sees me in all of this and naked. Doesn't seem to do much for him! Sometimes he responds enthusiastically but other times just looks like he needs to get away! He tries to give me a playful smile but it seems forced! 
This hurts. I seriously have a very nice body! Great butt and legs esp! 
So if the idea is couples let themselves go, I have not. I look and feel great. I have great hair and skin, for my age yes, but also for any age.

We've stopped holding hands while walking - which is more intimate. It's not comfortable to either of us when we do. Actually I'd love to hold hands but it feels forced from him. My music app recently randomly played music from when he and I first started dating and were for that brief sweet time in the throes of passion. The association I made was clear and I was ready to rekindle and forgive everything, to recapture that. He could not have been more disinterested in those songs. Absolutely seemed uncomfortable hearing them. 

So TRy I see the direction you're going in but these things aren't working...but thank you for the list anyway.


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## statuscheck

I'm understanding there are hide apps. Apps that appear on a device that actually hide what's behind them. He may have one of these. I only got a brief look but it caught my eye because it looked fake. Not a sleek design like most apps. I can't have his phone long enough to check thoroughly He protects his phone and always has it. He's been acting like he's fine leaving it out, but in fact its close by and at a minimum he can see it. 

We have the same appleID that is in his name. He has been avoiding going to carrier store to separate our IDs so I can have my own. 
Unfortunately the tracking app I had to download for the tracking thing I got is now on his phone, so I'm sure he's seen it. 

On his iPad he gets messages (these didn't appear while he was away) that pop up on the home screen that say "remember number 1782" or some other number. They appear to be security features to unlock an app or something. There will be several of these showing up in a day. I'm just noticing this and just beginning to look when I can. Pretty much whenever he's away from the iPad one of these messages shows up. The number is always different. When I first saw it I thought it was simply a note-to-self. I make random notes to myself all the time in my texts, emails etc. I thought that's what this was.
But it's the same simple language each time, but with a different number.
Does anyone know what this could be?


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## TRy

statuscheck said:


> So TRy I see the direction you're going in but these things aren't working...but thank you for the list anyway.


Although cheating is one of the top causes of divorce, most divorces are not due to cheating. Thus, you do not have to prove cheating to justify a divorce. That being said, he seems to be better than many as a husband, it is just not working for you. Yours is a personal decision.

Note: the older that you get when you become single, the thinner the pickings. In making the decision to divorce, please include being single and living alone as a possible final outcome. I had an aunt that became a widow fairly young that never got married again. She said that the only candidates that wanted more than dating and would consider marriage were much older than her, and that ending her days changing a man’s diaper was not appealing to her; she would rather be single.


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## Beach123

As far as being single… I have loved it. I’ve been single now for almost 15 years.

I spend time working a super fun, creative job that most people would never have the skills to do
I spend time with my kids - quality time, Funtime, vacation time and simple things like running errands together or walking the dogs.

I do whatever I want besides those things - I go where I want, with who I want, for as long as I want. There is no one telling me I can or can’t do things.

I live in one of the most beautiful places in the world and enjoy every little thing about being here. But honestly, I feel SO relieved that I don’t have someone who claims to love me stealing my peace of mind. Life is too short.

My exH still would want to get back together (we had it ALL) - like you, I was a wife that would do everything to make his life awesome, perfect and amazing. He knew it. He has regrets now but is still the same man I divorced. He knows nothing about respecting a woman, boundaries or being selfless.

I never imagined ahead of time what my single life would look like - but I can say it’s much more satisfying and happy than I ever was while being married.
It took me some counseling to get here - I had to learn that whatever I wanted in order to be happy - I needed to get that FOR MYSELF - never depending on anyone else to provide me…my happiness.

You may not know what your life and future will look like should you leave - but if you do - you just have to trust that you are capable of creating a new daily life FOR YOURSELF that will still bring you joy.


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