# Are any other women insulted by how Nice Guys are described in so many google links ?



## SimplyAmorous

I found this article when looking for something else, and it just really rubbed me the wrong way... These things usually do... I married the Nice Guy type... I consider him "genuine" though, not the man who lost a sense of who he was after the wedding & has turned into a "nice guy" in the negative sense.....My husband is exactly the same NOW as he was 30 yrs ago when we met ... literally nothing in his character has changed at all. If he is one thing... it is very consistent. 

I feel many women overlook the nicer men when they are dating, they push them aside so easily...My Aunt even did this.. then she married a Jerk...very big ego ...had a kid with him & has been going through hell ever since , even after the divorce....She feels her gravest mistake was letting the "good one" go...the one who showered her with attention & just plain treated her right. 

But I guess we can't help what we are attracted to !! 

It is the "spirit" in which this was written that gets under my skin....Some of the points are definitely true though... I will give my thoughts in another post.... as I am the type who prefers this type man - even the stuff that is being made fun of here ... 



> Top 10 Reasons Nice Guys Never Get Women
> 
> *1:* They are way too needy. Whenever I see guys clinging on to women 24/7 I seriously want to vomit in disgust. These guys have zero self confidence and radiate "loser" where ever they go.
> 
> *2:* His happiness is dependent on his relationships the girl he's seeing. He has no friends of his own and will devote all his time to that one girl. He calls all the time and doesn't give her the chance to miss him.
> 
> *3:* Nice guys are well - too nice to women. They don't challenge women and in short wind up being a push around. Women will not value a man if he doesn't challenge them and aren't fun or adventurous. I can't stress how awful men appear to women that are too nice.
> 
> *4:* Nice guys give up all the power. Women in general will test a man to see what his reaction will be. Nice guys will fail this test by apologizing and doing whatever she says putting aside his own needs. All she needs to do is throw a tantrum and he becomes a doormat.
> 
> *5:* Nice guys tend to be shy around women. He acts nervously around other people especially with women and won't make the effort to step forward and talk or make any connections with people.
> 
> *6:* Nice guy are emotional tampons. He will sit there and listen to all her problems the way a girlfriend would.
> 
> *7:* Trying to buy her affection with gifts and dinners. Major mistake nice guys make simply because at the core of it women will not respect a guy who tries to buy their affection. It's the perfect recipe for her to move on to some other guy and the nice guy has nothing to show for, just loads of money down the drain.
> 
> *8: *Nice guys don't exude confidence around women. Women want a man to take charge and be confident. As much as women want to claim that they want a sweet guy they are completely contradicting themselves because at the end of the day women are attracted to men who knows what they want and take charge with no apologies.
> 
> *9:* Nice guys don't embrace their masculinity. They feel that they must put in check their masculine desires and apologize for being a man! There is nothing wrong with being a man but thanks to the American feminist movement men today are afraid to show their true masculine nature.
> 
> *10: *Nice guys apologize unnecessarily. Whatever happens they apologize even if it's her fault. If the girl the women they are with begin to act bratty the nice guy will apologize and give in to her behavior. Save your apologies for big-time bloopers.


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## that_girl

That's a doormat, not a nice guy.


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## Jellybeans

See, I've always thought there is a difference between a man who is nice (kind) versus a doormat. 

And that list is Doormat Material. 

And I hadn't read TG's comment til now as I was typing this and lol, well we are in the same brain today, TG. I agree with her. 

I will say that this is a complete and total turn off (yuck):

_2: His happiness is dependent on his relationships the girl he's seeing. He has no friends of his own and will devote all his time to that one girl. He calls all the time and doesn't give her the chance to miss him._

Most women want a man who is kind and treats her well, who is confident, who stands up for her and for himself. That is what a gentleman is. That list is what a doormat is. And they are totally different things.


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## Dollystanford

that is a load of crap - my daddy is one of life's genuinely nice guys and he doesn't fit one of those criteria


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## Jellybeans

SimplyAmorous said:


> My Aunt even did this.. then she married a Jerk...very big ego ...had a kid with him & has been going through hell ever since , even after the divorce....She feels her gravest mistake was letting the "good one" go...the one who showered her with attention & just plain treated her right.


Did she know he was a jerk before she married him? Did he not shower her with attention and treat her right when they were dating? 

A lot of times while dating, people put their best face forward and then when the relationship develops/l.iving together/marriage, the mask comes off. Just saying.

My exH treated me like a queen in the beginning. He pampered me, showered me with gifts/love/affection. It wasn't til after we were married that he did a 360.


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## Lon

when I talk about being a "niceguy", the way it is defined in NMMNG, I mean doormat. You ladies are talking about "good men". Being a "nice guy" is not the same as being a "good man". That list is obviously for the "doormat" version of what niceguy means. Some guys label themselves as nice guys either because they are genuinely kind or else they want you to believe they are kind, but they are not necessarily doormats (nobody want to call themself a doormat)


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## Jeff/BC

rubs me the wrong way too... in fact, the whole fetish around "alpha's" and nice guys on this site rubs me the wrong way. I keep thinking I need to go buy some black leather slacks and a pirate shirt or something so I can be "alpha".

By the way, that doesn't even describe a doormat. That describes a caricature of a human being that is being mocked in the article. The whole thing is simply narcissism and spite.


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## Thor

That list is the pathological Nice Guy. Dr. Robert Glover wrote the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" around those kinds of behaviors and thought processes.

Being pathologically NICE has nothing to do with being a polite or thoughtful person.


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## SimplyAmorous

> *Jeff/BC said*: By the way, that doesn't even describe a doormat. That describes a caricature of a human being that is being mocked in the article. The whole thing is simply narcissism and spite.


Yours is the 1st reply I happen to fully appreciate on this thread- thus far, you seem to feel as I . 

Some of MY thoughts on what I see as mockery ...

I know all about No More Mr Nice Guy, even as the wife, I bought the book. 



> 1: They are way too needy. Whenever I see guys clinging on to women 24/7 I seriously want to vomit in disgust. These guys have zero self confidence and radiate "loser" where ever they go.


 Again, it is "the way" this is written... what if a Guy wants to be with his GF /wife all the time... my husband is like this...should I look down on him for this... he loves to spend time with me...he does not tire of it (Maybe he is a fool)....But guess what, I love that about him! We choose to do near everything together - he says.... "Why would you want to get married if you didn"t"? That is his reasoning. Pretty much mine also. 

Where some people may see "Needy" or express it in such a way... I may see the Hopeless 
Romantic type of man......which I would not trample on. Because my husband is a Nice Guy to the bone, many would assume he is Needy... but he never showed his neediness to me ---even when he damn well should have! I have never felt him a burden or looked at him in those terms. 

His self confidence is not through the roof by any means, but the truth of the matter is... His temperment type is known to struggle with this as a double introverted Phlegmatic/Melancholy. I don't down people or call them names for not being as ego centric as I can be at times -ha ha. It is just something to work on -just as the rest of us have something in our characters that needs a little refinement. Where he IS confident, is not really caring what others outside of his family thinks. I do dig that. 



> 2: His happiness is dependent on his relationships the girl he's seeing. He has no friends of his own and will devote all his time to that one girl. He calls all the time and doesn't give her the chance to miss him


 Kinda goes with #1 - my Bf/ now husband was like this , he did devote himself to me....why would I want otherwise? If this is what makes him happy, it is only a problem if the chick doesn't care for it ... I ate it up ! so how is this not a win / win. 

He did not overly call - it was equal on both sides. I used to write him love letters (always the writer) ...& he always wrote me one back. (still have them all saved)... I learned about a year ago, he told me he didn't really like doing that (writing is not his thing) but he did it anyway -for me. I suppose that is a sign of being TOO NICE - but I sure appreciated it back then.  

Anyway...why go out with a bunch of guys --just so they think your ass is cool -if that is not what you really want to do, if you would rather just hang out with your girl. To be honest, when we met, our friends on both sides took a hit, it became about "us" at that point. Been that way ever since. 

The writer of this article probably thinks being Best friends with your lover is also retarted.


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## CLucas976

The article irritates me.

I know a lot of "nice guys" that aren't by any means doormats, or empty little minions like this article depicts them to be. 

and why honestly, would you want to convey to all men that they need to be *******s to get women?


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## SimplyAmorous

> 3: Nice guys are well - too nice to women. They don't challenge women and in short wind up being a push around. Women will not value a man if he doesn't challenge them and aren't fun or adventurous. I can't stress how awful men appear to women that are too nice.


 This one has some truth to it, my husband is not Mr Adventurous...and he could use more Conflict ...I do love a challenge. I challenge him, I get him going...We can still get it to happen. And we do have alot of FUN, alot of laughter. To throw a guy to the wind over this , wouldn't that make us Excitement Junkies ? Not everyone can be all things exciting all of the time. Other qualities count too, we must balance the good with the little that might be lacking in some other areas. 



> 4: Nice guys give up all the power. Women in general will test a man to see what his reaction will be. Nice guys will fail this test by apologizing and doing whatever she says putting aside his own needs. All she needs to do is throw a tantrum and he becomes a doormat.


 Women WILL test..I find myself doing this to my husband every now & then.... *Respect* is needed to not fall into doormatism. If a woman can not respect a man who is good to her.... what does that say about her ?  Can we also look at it this way... instead of always blaming the man for being too nice. I would be the 1st to say...Loose the Bit**!! Believe me, I hate to see good men put down. 




> 5: Nice guys tend to be shy around women. He acts nervously around other people especially with women and won't make the effort to step forward and talk or make any connections with people.


 Some people are introverted...infact 25 % of the population... doesn't make them less valuable as human beings... Sure he needs to step it up & put himself out there...but why shoot these types down so quick.... If more people would take the time to get to know them...dig a little deeper... they might accually see they are a heck of alot of FUN & have alot to offer... diamonds in rough even. 

I used to be shy in school - so I have a heart for the shy people, I have overcome this tremendously though. 

When 75% of the population is social extroverts...they feel their way of being is superier. Interesting to note....statistically the Introverts are more intelligent, without them, our world would likely fall apart. They generally do the hard work behind the scenes & get less credit for it. 



> 6: Nice guy are emotional tampons. He will sit there and listen to all her problems the way a girlfriend would.


 I like men who can show their emotions. Women, you don't want this? Do you really spit on it? I feel this is a strength, not a weakness, calling it a tampom ...total mockery. I call this writer an ass. I get what he means -if a man is overly emotional & shows weakness like a little boy...someone you can't depend on in a storm or a frightening situation, that might make sense.... but his fine point here is ....listening to his wife/gf.. and being vulnerable with someone he loves. Never, that is a strength! 

I can take everything & anything to my husband.....he listens ....Yep, just like a freaking CHICK ! I don't need my mother or even a girlfriend, I have him! Though I talk to them too, he is always the 1st one I run too. I hold this as very important in a healthy marriage even.


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## that_girl

There's a fine line between good needy and bad needy.

it's all about balance.

I don't care for anything that talks about "men" and "women" as if they're all the same anyway.

Just be who you are... be the healthiest you can be, in mind and body....and find someone who loves you just like that.


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## SimplyAmorous

Jellybeans said:


> Did she know he was a jerk before she married him? Did he not shower her with attention and treat her right when they were dating?


Nope, the signs were there, the controlling issues. He did pamper her- he had more $$ than the nice guy, isn't it always something like this.. and Oh the confidence, heck he thought he knew everything, every time we talked to him, he owned the best and he WAS the best. Me & husband always used to joke about it afterwards & make fun of him. Nope, nothing humble about the man. To me, those were red flags. 

But the other guy was gone, she was getting older, she wanted a baby -he seemed to be it -willing , wanting one too. Truthfully, they were too much alike, both strong headed.... and not enough in common. 

She accually had alot more in common with the Good guy she let go. I am not sure what she was looking for back then. All I know is she regets her decisions very much. 

.


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## SimplyAmorous

that_girl said:


> There's a fine line between good needy and bad needy.
> 
> it's all about balance.
> 
> I don't care for anything that talks about "men" and "women" as if they're all the same anyway.
> 
> Just be who you are... be the healthiest you can be, in mind and body....and find someone who loves you just like that.


I agree...but none of us has arrived. I know I haven't.

Even though I say my husband never changed, he was HIDING some of his GOOD self from me...to appease me over the years...we went through that book....and out of the 15 things to describe *What is wrong with the Nice Guy*.....(pg 7-9) we deemed he fell into these ..... 

*1.* He was dishonest cause he repressed his feelings to avoid conflict...

*2.* He would give to get -because he wanted to be appreciated.

*3.* He was attracted to people who need fixing....isn't it sweet to say.. THAT WAS ME! I don't think he knew that when he met me though...this came out after he asked me to be his girl....It goes on to say... the nice guy will spend his life putting out fires and managing crisis.... this has hardly been our marraige (thankfully)..... we pretty much helped each other & because of it -we are better people today. He is my anchor, and I know what I bring to him. 

*4. *One could say he was manipulative -becaue he had a hard time making his needs a priority & asking for what he wanted in a clear & direct way- this was near always over sex, he says little else bothered him... he was happy. 

*5*. Obviously...he wasn't happy with his sex life -this was one of the things on the list. He was not a chronic masterbator or had affairs of anything they mentioned- only the unhappiness. 

I guess my point in all of this is... even though MY Nice guy has not "manned up" as much or as confidently as other men have through the help of aids such as Married Man's Sex life and NMMNG (cause he is not into reading)....He would have never went to any of these places, it was ME who changed more so -not him.... He is still a hell of a good man, and yeah, I tend to get offended when I hear these type men being ratted on mercilessly. 

Very few men are going to come forth here and say... Hey, look at me... I had some of those traits too - No, everyone wants to disassociate themselves from being a dreaded pathetic nice guy..

I've told him, if he so much as puts himself down for me again, I'm going to put his nuts in a vise. I don't like that - I don't want it and damn it, He needs to stand up & tell me off -if that is what is needed. I do have my moments. For the most part, he handles me well. I don't miss how he feels anymore. 

What I got is more vulnerability and honesty.. He knows I want it raw, I want it REAL... if he says something I don't want to hear, I will praise him for it . He told me one day he didn't like my attitude and he was not going to do it (I wanted him to vaccum -getting ready for Thanksgiving -his family would be here in minutes).... I went over and kissed him for that- for telling me what for !! 

I feel women should be responsible to work with their Nice men as well - to help them be better men, we are all in this together.


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## that_girl

Yea, my husband has the savior complex with people. He's working through that now that he's aware of it and it goes back to his childhood and his crappy household and how he couldn't save his siblings from the abuse.

Which makes sense why his ex was just a hot mess of a trainwreck.


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## greenpearl

NICE GUYS - YouTube


Nice guys finish last, that's why I'll treat you like trash...


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## SimplyAmorous

greenpearl said:


> NICE GUYS - YouTube
> 
> 
> Nice guys finish last, that's why I'll treat you like trash...


Oh Greenpearl, that was funny - never seen that before. Those nice guys represented there - all my husband in his youth , ha ha 

I liked the part where she asks him if she looks good in that dress. :rofl:


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## Lon

SA your post almost has me in tears... your marriage is amazing to me, you and your H are so fortunate to have each other, even though I'm sure its a big challenge sometimes.


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## bubbly girl

SA, the way you've described your husband in your posts, I've never considered him a wimp, or doormat, or anything of the sort. I've always pictured him as a laid back, easygoing guy. There's nothing wrong with that.

I remember years ago when my daughter was younger, I was telling my best friend that I worried that my daughter was too nice for her own good and kind of wished she'd be a little tougher. My friend told me, "they're are plenty of people that are aggressive and there's plenty of nasty people. It's nice to have people like your daughter in this world."

That's how I see "nice guys". There is nothing wrong with someone being nice or considerate or loving, whether they are male or female.

I wouldn't take that article too seriously. The article (if you could even consider that an article) looks like a fluff piece that you'd find in a Cosmo magazine, but geared towards men.


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## bubbly girl

Lon said:


> SA your post almost has me in tears... your marriage is amazing to me, you and your H are so fortunate to have each other, even though I'm sure its a big challenge sometimes.


Don't they seem like an amazing couple? I love reading her posts. That's why I don't see how her husband being a nice guy is a bad thing. They just seem to belong perfectly with each other.


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## shy_guy

When I read those 10 points, he is talking about two stereotypes which he defines as "Nice guys" and "women." I don't think anyone exists that actually fits either stereotype. It may be a caricature. It actually sounds like a guy I remember from when I stopped for gas on I5 in California one time. This guy was about 25 years old and was on the phone giving his friend advice on how to get women's attention ... at least I think that was what he was inserting between all those "dude"s in his sentences ... 

Really, someone from the outside may look at me and think I fit several of those items to one degree or another. I really don't give a rat's *** what they think of me, though. I don't really give a rat's *** what other women think of me, either. I have one woman I need to know, and one woman I need to please. She likes the nice things I do for her, and even when I go overboard, after a moment or two, she appreciates what I do. I like to make her feel good. I like to take care of her. I like to make her smile. I like to make her want to kiss me. I like to make her voice change in those moments when I do something extra special nice for her. I make reference to treating her like a princess partly because that's how I think of it, but really, she treats me VERY nice as well. I like the arrangement.

I don't know who that is that wrote that, but I know I'm not married to him/her, so I find myself having a hard time caring what he/she thinks about my behavior.


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## FirstYearDown

My husband gives me plenty of attention, listens patiently to my concerns and he is also the strong silent type. There is something very masculine and alpha about showing passion and devotion to one woman.


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## that_girl

Being involved in your partner and being 'present' in life is not weak.

A good man is a good leader, listener, supporter and lover. Imo, of course.


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## Jeff/BC

All I can say is I sure am glad I'm not shopping for a partner. Depending on which list I read and which thread I'm on, I am either too nice or the spawn of satan. Then there's that whole "alpha" thing and I don't even OWN a trusty steed. In addition there appears to be at least a 4 year degree worth of courses in tactics I'm supposed to employ in order to get my partner to .... you know... be a decent human being. I don't think I'm smart enough... or is it dumb enough... to find a partner.


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## arbitrator

that_girl said:


> There's a fine line between good needy and bad needy.


Interesting analogy, but would you be so kind as to differentiate between the terminology "good needy" and "bad needy?" Cite some examples. Thanks!


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## Stonewall

I plead guilty your honor, guilty as hell!!


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## Halien

Hearing these negatives in articles like this evokes a strong sense of frustration, to be honest. Think about what it really says about the woman, and how she views herself, to be able to say such a thing. Obviously, some who say such a thing feel this sense of condescention towards these guys.

But look at what is REALLY going on in a guy's mind. Add to that all the frustration women have felt in the past when they weren't treated as equals in society. I'm joking here, but do you really think a guy understands half of what a woman says when she talks endlessly about the most minute of details when it comes to how so and so made her feel? Do you really think he wouldn't enjoy it if she'd just be the type who preferred a good round of X-box over talking about feelings? Nice guys are those who choose to respect their girlfriend/wife so much that they want to be there for her. Yet women like this look down on those behaviors.

In the end, though, such associations, or negative assumptions go on about just about any type of man, though. Women too, I guess. Take a compassionate, confident guy and stick an alpha label on him, and some woman is going to write a story about how they all are arrogant, low-empathy users of women, who are missing the gene that would allow them to really love a woman. 

To be honest, as I've said before, I don't see your husband as a nice guy, SA. I see a guy who has found peace with himself, and knows exactly what is important to him. He has no need to try to be what he isn't. There is strength in a man, or woman, who is at peace with who they are.


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## SimplyAmorous

Lon said:


> SA your post almost has me in tears... your marriage is amazing to me, you and your H are so fortunate to have each other, even though I'm sure its a big challenge sometimes.


You have to be one of the Nice men (who has been hurt by women) to appreciate the things I have said here. 

Honestly Lon... I can't say it is a big challenge, oh goodness no. It is accually as easy as breathing....95% of the time anyway. When people say..."Marriage is work"... I can not relate to this.... Never felt that way - not with this man . Amazingly he wouldn't say that either... I've asked him how much WORK I am. 

I am surely the more difficult to please though.... It helps that I am sane, can easily admit my faults & for the most part, if you talk to me, we're gonna overcome it....we have always been very compatible. 

Worst times...When I have PMS ...you men can surely relate to that ! These last few yrs, this seemed to go haywire--but so did alot of other wonderful things, so he is not complaining)... he said to me not to long ago......"it is like going down the road... you hit a rock ...THUMP!... then you just keep going".... Love his attitude...even when I can be wicked, he will come back with something like that.  

He joked about my pms one day saying .....I need to locked in a cage with duct tape over my mouth. I think he is right !










It is like this hovering black cloud comes over me, it messes with my normal balance, I can feel I am "not right" somehow....I will tear up over the littlest things, good or bad... and if heaven forbid I get mad... I can steamroll during that time...whatever the emotion, it is simply "magnified". I accually found this link I picked apart during PMS ....and in my irritation I wanted to give my thoughts. 










I shouldn't let all of these things bother me like they do .... Shy Guy has the right attitude, I know this is very true. Sometimes I think I like to rant a little.

But all in all.. He still reaches for my hand while driving...it is very loving, even if we walk to our mailbox together- how silly is that. I know he is very happy....despite some of MY moments.


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## okeydokie

is there a list anywhere that describes why women are never happy with what they have?


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## SimplyAmorous

Halien said:


> Hearing these negatives in articles like this evokes a strong sense of frustration, to be honest. Think about what it really says about the woman, and how she views herself, to be able to say such a thing. Obviously, some who say such a thing feel this sense of condescention towards these guys.


 It was a guy who wrote that article, says he is a dating expert --his specialty -*seduction*...of course! Probably a convert of sites like this: 

 The Attraction Forums | The Mystery Method: How to Get Beautiful Women Into Bed 

I don't doubt this stuff works , mind you... but the problem is.. the men who ACT like this are just as deceiving , if not more so, than the "nice guys" ....not really showing their true colors in realness...2 different kinds of hiding going on, just in very different ways. I just ordered a book on Introverts and it said that 25% of them act like extroverts -just to fit in. Why do we have to do this with each other. 

I think the answer lies in better Communication, all of these other things only mask who we really are to others ... This is honorable living before others >>>  The 7 Habits of Highly Effective 



> I'm joking here, but do you really think a guy understands half of what a woman says when she talks endlessly about the most minute of details when it comes to how so and so made her feel? Do you really think he wouldn't enjoy it if she'd just be the type who preferred a good round of X-box over talking about feelings? Nice guys are those who choose to respect their girlfriend/wife so much that they want to be there for her. Yet women like this look down on those behaviors.


 My husband is not a gamer or a sports fanatic.... he does like guns & coins though. Of course we love our men to listen, we want to feel we CAN lean on their shoulders -but us women should be careful to not be obsessive talkers.... I can't even stand that in my gf's - I want to run from them, change the subject... I've been brash enough to tell my one gf if she goes on like she does about her work & mentioning her ex with a guy -she won't get a 2nd date. 

I aim to solve my relationship dilemmas, in a way I am like a man....trying to fix. But of course I need his listening ear too. A few of my gf's has told me they can't talk to their husbands. I think that is very sad. 



> Take a compassionate, confident guy and stick an alpha label on him, and some woman is going to write a story about how they all are arrogant, low-empathy users of women, who are missing the gene that would allow them to really love a woman.


 Yep, I would be tempted to think this, I KNOW it is not right, but I can't deny the temptation. I often 
associate Alpha as confident Ego busting -Leader of the Pack badboy...just as others associate BETA with pathetic & doormats. Though I would say there is likely 75% more slamming towards Beta men. 

I feel Alphas can stand to take more hits personally -in this attraction war. 

I agree....I shouldn't do it... and others shouldn't do it. I guess I have seen plenty of women (generally stuck ups) -shooting down the shy boys in my time, making fun of them calling them freaky, weird , very condescending comments . 

Something just rises in me and I just want to defend ! Hey, that is why I did this thread.


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## Bottled Up

I was about to buy the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" yesterday but then I read a review on Amazon about it that totally turned me off. The review was so concise and thought-out, it kinda shunned me away from the book. It started making me think about how the whole "Nice Guy" thing is kind of exploited in the relationship industry... I think purposefully, because there's money to be made off making men feel insecure about themselves. This article you posted SimplyA seems like the same culprit of what the review was talking about. Here's a quote of the review verbatim:



> *Flawed Theory, Sound Advice: A Common Sense Look at "No More Mr. Nice Guy", November 25, 2007*
> 
> By Enamorato
> 
> This book is, in many ways, highly flawed. I cannot, however, rate it any lower than three stars because the core behaviors Dr. Glover advocates are fundamental pillars of psychological well-being. His core premise is that all human beings have needs. Among these are somatic needs (food, shelter, treatment for injury, etc.) and emotional/psychological needs (love, validation, affection, etc.). For one reason or another, however, many men have come to habitually avoid pursuing or expressing these needs and desires in a direct way. Thus, "Nice Guy syndrome" is characterized by attempts to satisfy those needs by indirect means. Glover describes some of the more pervasive behaviors: a superficial niceness (in which one does something nice with the unconscious assumption that he will get something in return - "hidden contracts" as Glover dubs them), passive aggression, and other means of manipulation. Of course, these tactics are most often ineffective and leave the man frustrated and needy. Oftentimes, these desires are rechanneled (into things like porn or drug addiction) or repressed (only to emerge in an irrational or misdirected show of aggression or an emotional breakdown).
> 
> Glover encourages the individual to take an assertive role in getting his needs met. He does not mince words, and says outright "you are the only person responsible for meeting your own needs." And the best way to make sure this happens is to take the direct route: express outright and honestly what it is you want, make your own needs a priority, and then pursue them (or ask for help). This is, of course, sound and commonsense psychology. The heart of the book really are Chapter's Three ("Learn To Please the Only Person Who Really Matters"), Four ("Make Your Needs a Priority"), and Five ("Reclaim Your Personal Power"). This is where the book is most thoroughly in touch with the roots of this self-sabotaging behavior and offer the most practical suggestions for improvement.
> 
> *Where things get somewhat muddy, however, is* Glover's analysis of the genesis of this behavior, and the fundamentally flawed model of the "integrated man" that he advocates for the "recovering Nice Guy." While an understanding of where self-sabotaging behavior comes from can certainly offer insight, Glover's theory is disappointingly Freudian (and more specifically, Oedipal; see in particular Chapters 2 and 6 on "The Making of a Nice Guy" and "Reclaiming Your Masculinity" respectively). Likewise, Glover targets the women's liberation movement and the paucity of male teachers in the classroom for having a deleterious effect on the psyche of men. He seems oddly fixated on a gender dynamic that is largely irrelevant to the heart of the problem: an underlying insecurity. While the absence of a father figure and the predominance of women in the public education system no doubt can play a role in a boy's development of sense-of-self (and consequent alienation from other men), these phenomena do not play as large a role as Glover seems to want us to believe. An understanding of WHY certain men are simply more susceptible towards these tendencies goes largely unaddressed, as well as the fact that many men who have gone through the exact same school-system, in the same post-women's liberation environment, whose father figure was absent, etc. have emerged perfectly functional, successful and happy.
> 
> In my opinion, these gender politics are merely Glover's shtick and have absolutely jack to do with recovering a sense of assertiveness and competence in one's life. It's interesting to compare this book to another in the male-oriented self-help genre - "The Way of the Superior Man" by David Deida. The modus operandi of much self-help literature is to pander to the reader's deepest insecurities: to convince him that he is fundamentally "broken" and needs fixing, and to fill him with an unscrupulous allegiance to a (mostly random) plan of "recovery." And, indeed, both Deida and Glover pander way below the belt: squarely at the reader's testicles.
> 
> Another major flaw with this text (and one that plagues just about all mass-market psychological theories today), is the lack of any control group to establish exactly what a "recovering Nice Guy" should realistically aim for. For example, much of Dr. Glover's sentences are prefaced with "Nice Guys tend to..." But, having spent most of his recent clinical career exploring the inner psyches of men who identify themselves as "Nice Guys" (and of course having been one himself), how exactly does Glover know that HEALTHY men DON'T also "tend to" engage in the same behavior? What this book would benefit from is an explicit idea of where to draw the line between debilitating pathology and functional "imperfections." The fact is, "the integrated man" that Glover speaks of is a theoretical ideal. He doesn't really exist. Even the assertive, talented, successful, and happy men that seem to exemplify this goal experience the selfsame fundamental doubt, frustration, and periods of ineffectuality that Mr. Nice Guy does. Luckily, Glover recommends throughout the book for these guys to get out there and form friendships with other men, which presumably would facilitate a reality check. Glover makes it clear from the onset that it is important that one have a healthy and supportive group of people with whom one can be honest and expose their frailties and mistakes to (he calls these "safe people").
> 
> Also, Glover's model of "integrated manhood" is unconscionably narrow. This is most apparent in Glover's use of quotations from Robert Bly out-of-context. One such quote deals with the "lack of vitality" of "soft-men" who are often seen with "strong women who positively radiate energy." Glover compounds the issue by evoking the issue of "softness" again in Chapter 6, where he admonishes the "many men who... even take pride in their [physical and emotional] softness" and then instructs his reader to hit the gym. Glover does not seem to consider that there are as many ways to be a man as there are men in the world. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with being a "soft" man. Likewise, there is nothing wrong with being involved with "strong women." Only one who is fundamentally insecure would argue otherwise.
> 
> And this is exactly the point: Glover knows this, and works his reader into a frenzy of attempting to reclaim their "birthright" of masculinity. Passages like this serve only to pander to the reader's insecurity and breed an allegiance to his system, however arbitrary and illogical. One need only hop over to Glover's internet support group to see this in full evidence: some of these men have been at it for years and truly believe they are on their way towards becoming an "integrated man." Yet they are still fundamentally insecure and stuck in Glover's schema of lost manhood.
> 
> It must be noted that, while Glover's theory itself is muddled and his tactics more concerned with breeding allegiance to his theory, he advocates fundamentally sound and helpful behavior. For example, he asks the reader to create a list of "safe people." This essentially fosters the formation of friendship: a cornerstone to a fulfilling life. He advocates honesty and assertiveness. This fosters the ability to get/express what you really want, thereby preventing frustration or repression. He advocates getting physical exercise and taking care of yourself. We all know the benefits of exercise and eating right. Essentially, Glover advocates being yourself and not being ashamed of it. This is possibly the most fundamental pillar of psychological health, is it not? All in all, Glover's advice itself is nothing new, nothing revolutionary, and nothing that has not already been accounted for in modern psychology: it's just dressed up with a hook that that bound to bait some of the the millions of insecure men in the world.


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## bill2011

I would have to disagree, I think the NMMNG book is very accurate. I've done alot of research and it also ties into co-dependency issues and self-esteem problems due to some trama in childhood. They are all intertwined with each other. I'm not proud that I have those qualities on the list and are working hard to change that. 

SA you are not the typical women and I'm happy for you that what you and your spouse have works for the both of you.


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## shy_guy

bill2011 said:


> I would have to disagree, I think the NMMNG book is very accurate. I've done alot of research and it also ties into co-dependency issues and self-esteem problems due to some trama in childhood. They are all intertwined with each other. I'm not proud that I have those qualities on the list and are working hard to change that.
> 
> SA you are not the typical women and I'm happy for you that what you and your spouse have works for the both of you.


May I ask what research you did? I ask because "research" means different things to different people. For example, the research a scientist or engineer does is different from what is done by someone writing an undergrad research paper. I'm just wanting to clarify where your conclusions come from.


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## bill2011

Maybe research was a poor choice of words, I guess self-discovery and knowledge awareness would be better. I've been reading many books on the various topics and it is helping me understand my behavior. In addition to NMMNG book I've read the following books John Bradshaw's (homecomming and the shame that binds you), Hold on to your Nuts, When I say no I feel guilty and Co-Dependent No-More. I am also in a local NMMNG group and do IC for myself.

I would also add that while these books deliver their messages differently, for me at least I can see that all the pieces come together.


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## shy_guy

SimplyAmorous said:


> It was a guy who wrote that article, says he is a dating expert --his specialty -*seduction*...of course! Probably a convert of sites like this:
> 
> The Attraction Forums | The Mystery Method: How to Get Beautiful Women Into Bed
> 
> I don't doubt this stuff works , mind you... but the problem is.. the men who ACT like this are just as deceiving , if not more so, than the "nice guys" ....not really showing their true colors in realness...2 different kinds of hiding going on, just in very different ways. I just ordered a book on Introverts and it said that 25% of them act like extroverts -just to fit in. Why do we have to do this with each other.
> 
> I think the answer lies in better Communication, all of these other things only mask who we really are to others ... This is honorable living before others >>> The 7 Habits of Highly Effective
> 
> My husband is not a gamer or a sports fanatic.... he does like guns & coins though. Of course we love our men to listen, we want to feel we CAN lean on their shoulders -but us women should be careful to not be obsessive talkers.... I can't even stand that in my gf's - I want to run from them, change the subject... I've been brash enough to tell my one gf if she goes on like she does about her work & mentioning her ex with a guy -she won't get a 2nd date.
> 
> I aim to solve my relationship dilemmas, in a way I am like a man....trying to fix. But of course I need his listening ear too. A few of my gf's has told me they can't talk to their husbands. I think that is very sad.
> 
> Yep, I would be tempted to think this, I KNOW it is not right, but I can't deny the temptation. I often
> associate Alpha as confident Ego busting -Leader of the Pack badboy...just as others associate BETA with pathetic & doormats. Though I would say there is likely 75% more slamming towards Beta men.
> 
> I feel Alphas can stand to take more hits personally -in this attraction war.
> 
> I agree....I shouldn't do it... and others shouldn't do it. I guess I have seen plenty of women (generally stuck ups) -shooting down the shy boys in my time, making fun of them calling them freaky, weird , very condescending comments .
> 
> Something just rises in me and I just want to defend ! Hey, that is why I did this thread.


From the first paragraph, maybe this guy WAS the guy in the gas station on I-5. 

I think what you hit on SA is a need to appreciate the partner's individuality, appreciate what makes your partner who they are, and allowing them to be who they are. In your post, you recognized that there are two sides to the relationship which means give and take, not just take. I think that is a big part of why you are successful in your marriage. Like many, you recognize that this doesn't mean that there will never be a disagreement (far from it, right?), but you both want to work back to that place of happiness in your relationship and are willing to give and take to get there.

I'm always skeptical when I see someone start in on stereotypes of any type, and this article/list is just one of those perfect examples of someone doing that. "Nice guys" do X, Y and Z, and "women" like A, B, and C. I don't see any recognition of individuality in his list. I don't see any real depth of thought in his list beyond a world defined to fit in his narrow view. Obviously, many of us will not fit into his view. Maybe one day he'll develop a bit more and see that.


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## SimplyAmorous

bill2011 said:


> I would have to disagree, I think the NMMNG book is very accurate. I've done alot of research and it also ties into co-dependency issues and self-esteem problems due to some trama in childhood. They are all intertwined with each other. I'm not proud that I have those qualities on the list and are working hard to change that.
> 
> SA you are not the typical women and I'm happy for you that what you and your spouse have works for the both of you.


I am not at all typical, this is very true. 

You misunderstand me a little though... I do not have any issues with "No More Mr Nice Guy" for the most part......I have the book, we went through it togehter, I think we stopped about 1/4 way though. I also bought "Hold on to your nuts".. I seriously wanted to see if these were degrading NICE men unfairly.. I didn't get that. 

I think ALL people should not hide who they are, to speak up & say what is on thier mind- even if others they love will take issue, without that going on, genuine communication is flawed, in these ways...these book are excellent. No one should camaflauge who they are for another. Screw going along with the crowd. I never did. 

I listed some of the things my husband fell into...(post #14) in his case...his home life was WONDERFUL ...never abused, mistreated, he wouldn't even know what trama was, he was loved & cared for -from birth. Siblings also wonderful. 

He had friends but he was still a shyer quieter kid, he wasn't like alot of the others in school, he was not into sports.... and he DID get made fun off. .... if anything took at hit on his self-esteem it was a** holes in school. But as sensitive people (which my husband is)... we tend to let that get us down, don't we, especially in our youth. 

One of our sons is quiet & shy, he is all his dad - got a little badboy in there -but it is concealed. Only his close friends see that. He was  getting bullied by some brat a couple yrs ago- in elementary. I was fuming, but what could I do. I can't fight his battles. I just thought to myself...he is taking after DAD !! I gave him permission to pound that brat into the ground & tell him off , even told the Principle that -but I knew he wouldn't do it. 

He is doing fine now, some cheerleader went after him....so he is all into her -moving up in the desirable chain- I suppose. I was so damn happy for him...the shy boy gets the pretty girl. Love those stories...cause they are not the norm. 


Phleg's don't like conflict, it is in their nature. I am chloric, I tend to enjoy it ! Which in reality , makes us good for each other, I unearth anything that is bothering him. IN the past, I was not paying enough attention. Now I am...which has been a blessing . 

Yes, Co-denpendency is NO good. I think it is GREAT that you are working hard to be a better man. I don't think those books encourage men to be jerks... though a few things we read togehter, we agreed was purely not necessary in HIS situation....such as finding men to hang with or not talking to ME about his feelings. I am not judging him or looking down on him in any way, so these things were a non issue -with us. 

But if a man has a wife who is looking down on him, treating him like a doormat...Yep, he needs a whole nother social network - other men to confide in - and not talk to her about his progress.


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## SimplyAmorous

Bottled Up, thank you for posting that review... some of my thoughts....on the reviewers points.... 



> An understanding of WHY certain men are simply more susceptible towards these tendencies goes largely unaddressed, as well as the fact that many men who have gone through the exact same school-system, in the same post-women's liberation environment, whose father figure was absent, etc. have emerged perfectly functional, successful and happy.


I agree with this.... In my own mind...which I am always harping on here is...one of the things that is NEVER addressed in any of these books is our inborn temperments, it is very easy for Extroverted Chlorics and Sanguines to BE & act in a more confident take charge - assertive way...this seriously is as easy as breathing for many of us... Someone woud have to tie my mouth shut to get me to put myself down. I can hardly do it...that would be the struggle for me. 

Scroll down & read the differences :  The Four Temperaments 
(Choleric .... Melancholic ... Phlegmatic and Sanguine )



> how exactly does Glover know that HEALTHY men DON'T also "tend to" engage in the same behavior? What this book would benefit from is an explicit idea of where to draw the line between debilitating pathology and functional "*imperfections*." The fact is, "the integrated man" that Glover speaks of is a theoretical ideal. He doesn't really exist.


 I would also agree that the healthy man still engages in some of these behavior some of the time, putting himself down for his partner, but it shouldn't be ALL the time by any means. ...and yes, we all have imperfections, embracing ourselves with those imperfections is also very important for happiness. 

I recently ordered this book :  The Gifts of Imperfection: Let Go of Who You Think You're Supposed to Be and Embrace Who You Are : Brene Brown

I didn't listen to this... but I know it has to be excellent - same author of the book ... The Gifts of Imperfection - YouTube



> Glover compounds the issue by evoking the issue of "softness" again in Chapter 6, where he admonishes the "many men who... even take pride in their [physical and emotional] softness" and then instructs his reader to hit the gym. *Glover does not seem to consider that there are as many ways to be a man as there are men in the world*. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with being a "soft" man. Likewise, there is nothing wrong with being involved with "strong women." Only one who is fundamentally insecure would argue otherwise.


 I agree, there is nothing wrong with being a SOFT man....My husband would definitely be a SOFT man. 

But his type is also needed in this world. For instance...he has the Boss from Hell (the man needed to go to Anger Management twice since he has been there)..... everyone hates him....one employee will not even LOOK at him when he talks...it's crazy there. I shouldn't laugh with some of these stories he comes home with, but I can't help myself. 

My husband has a way of "calming" that man.... Probably a blessing he works there or who knows what might go on... He seems to like my husband, he appears to be the only one who can "get away" with giving the boss advice without getting his head chopped off. Sometimes I say to him.. YOU said THAT to the Boss !! 

A few wks back, he walked in on the boss & a co-worker screamng at each other..He took it upon himself to talk to the boss afterwards telling him he should take it easy on him, that paperwork takes time....then notices him later in his office somber –like he is thinking, then his Co-worker tells him later the boss apologized…. (this just doesn't happen) Love it ! My husband…the peacemaker. 




> Essentially, Glover advocates being yourself and not being ashamed of it. This is possibly the most fundamental pillar of psychological health, is it not? All in all, Glover's advice itself is nothing new, nothing revolutionary, and nothing that has not already been accounted for in modern psychology: it's just dressed up with a hook that that bound to bait some of the the millions of insecure men in the world.


 I agree, it is dressed up with a slant, the whole point is ....about being yourself and not being ashamed of your desires, your wants, and pursuing them.


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## LovesHerMan

I deliberately looked for a nice guy in a husband because my alpha father walked all over my mother, and I was determined not to have that kind of marriage.

I agree with the others, the definition of a nice guy in your original post is of a man who values his wife more than himself, a man who bases his self-worth on pleasing others. That can only lead to unhappiness for both nice guy and entitled wife.


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## Jeff/BC

Bottled Up said:


> I was about to buy the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" yesterday but then I read a review on Amazon about it that totally turned me off.


How interesting. Many of those exact same points are what I've been negatively reacting to regarding the "alpha" and "nice guy" fetish on this site. It all seems... to my eye at least... a bit "off".


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## ocotillo

Rubs me the wrong way too. Actually the whole 'alpha' = 'accomplished pick-up artist' thing rubs me the wrong way.

A man can be a triple black belt and deadlier with a pistol than the fictional character Vincent from the movie _Collateral_, but if he believes women should be treated like ladies and sees to their needs ahead of his own, that makes him a 'doormat?'

Give me a break! 

I don't even need to track down a picture of this Andres Munoz to know that he's a skinny little pencil-neck with a big mouth.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

This article is extremely off. My husband is defiantly a nice guy type, but he's not needy, a doormat, nor does he continuously shower me with gifts. My husband is a patient and very confident man without arrogance and big ego. He looks at everything from several point of views without judgment.

Sure he loves affection, but so do I. Thus is one need that is easily met. My husband is not emotional like a woman, he has very logical point of view. I'm absolutely in love with my nice guy. We both treat each other with respect. We both listen to our point of views and come to conclusions as a team. I'm confident around him, especially in the bedroom. He keeps a very positive attitude and it rubs off on all of us.

I'm very lucky to have him as my husband. We both build ourselves to be better people. He's the nice guy, I'm the nice girl. We get along beautifully.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000

ocotillo said:


> Rubs me the wrong way too. Actually the whole 'alpha' = 'accomplished pick-up artist' thing rubs me the wrong way.
> 
> A man can be a triple black belt and deadlier with a pistol than the fictional character Vincent from the movie _Collateral_, but if he believes women should be treated like ladies and sees to their needs ahead of his own, that makes him a 'doormat?'
> 
> Give me a break!
> 
> I don't even need to track down a picture of this Andres Munoz to know that he's a skinny little pencil-neck with a big mouth.


That makes him a man of substance. A Gentlemen. He is nice because it is his choice.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

*Dean* said:


> You don't have a Nice Guy......you have a really Good Man!


Awwww.... That's really sweet. He's a wonderful man who is in love with me too.


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## SimplyAmorous

I am picking apart the last 3 points of Andres Munoz's list ...




> 7: Trying to buy her affection with gifts and dinners. Major mistake nice guys make simply because at the core of it women will not respect a guy who tries to buy their affection. It's the perfect recipe for her to move on to some other guy and the nice guy has nothing to show for, just loads of money down the drain.


 I've never used a good guy like this, but sadly I have seen others do it. One of our guy friends really liked this one lady in our church... they hung out alot, communcatively they enjoyed each other...he was doing all of these favors for her, painting her house, then her mom's.....he was falling in love...Being a friend looking out for him -I kept telling him- NOPE, she ain't into you !! Me & my husband knew it, he would get mad at us, but I didn't want to see him hurt. He kept spitting out the favors, once she thought she'd get us to haul something for her , cause we were his friends... I told him -NO WAY ! He learned a hard hard lesson...and it took him years to overcome this stupid girl. I think women should be ashamed of themselves when they do this, she knew, and she kept taking. Yes, he was a fool... but she was a USER. Who is worse in character? 

Yeah...GOOD loving men need to be very very very careful here-they can be so blinded -by love, and so manipulated by women. 

But in saying all of this.. my husband treated me like this when we were dating, he took me shopping in the Mall, bought me clothes, jewelry, he was very very good to me - I think he felt bad for my home life, I rarely was treated with anything new... and truthfully, his good treatment (in so many ways, this was just one) - sure it won my heart over to him. But I never used him. If I had any reserves about us, I wouldn't have let him do those things for me. My conscience would have been screaming. 




> 8: Nice guys don't exude confidence around women. Women want a man to take charge and be confident. As much as women want to claim that they want a sweet guy they are completely contradicting themselves because at the end of the day women are attracted to men who knows what they want and take charge with no apologies.


 I look at more than this. We can go to websites (like the Attraction forums link above) where they TRAIN YOU to act all confident while you have zero character underneath all the BS... better to be real from the get go. What may appear as confidence may simply be a haughty EGO disguised. My husband works with a guy like this, I know he is a Choleric temperment... He tries to play Boss at work, he thinks he knows everything, he tells my husband when he goes into the bar, all the women want him - he seriously believes these things. The man IS confident....but also diluted. When he 1st started working there, he was telling everyone his wife was crazy --they believed him! He played a good act for a time there. Always the confident talker.....now that they have gotten to REALLY know him... they now see him as crazy! So confidence can even be misleading ... 

I think it is wise to look deeper than outward appearances and how many chicks is following behind. I would choose a humble respectful man with character over an appearance of "confidence". Some have a very *quiet confidence*, you may not even see it- this would be my husband -but he would not even say he has much confidence... He never brags but he is satisfied with his life, his abilities, is not envious of anyone else, and is a very very happy man. 

Many seem to wear that hat...just cause one is confident (in what?) doesn't necessarily make him GOOD to women. Plenty of confident Jerks walking around. 




> 9: Nice guys don't embrace their masculinity. They feel that they must put in check their masculine desires and apologize for being a man! There is nothing wrong with being a man but thanks to the American feminist movement men today are afraid to show their true masculine nature


 I have to agree with this one. Men are different than us women, they are stronger, braver, they are born to provide & protect, they make excellent mechanics. I would never disagree, or want to change some of the wonderful things about men- that I couldn't hold a candle too. Love their abilities, even the way they think. I am thrilled they are differnt and love & embrace those differences. But a Softer man is not any less of a man.

Nor should the jocks look down on the Geeky types like Bill Gates....the Geek that changed the world... I read somewhere he said this ... "Don't make fun of those nerds at school...in the future, you might be working for them". 






> 10: Nice guys apologize unnecessarily. Whatever happens they apologize even if it's her fault. If the girl the women they are with begin to act bratty the nice guy will apologize and give in to her behavior.


 Noone should ever apologize for something that is not their fault. Yes, this one is a sign of a doormat, I can't argue this one at all.


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## Jeff/BC

SimplyAmorous said:


> I've never used a good guy like this


No, I wouldn't imagine you have. Honestly, that was one of the things I was wondering when I read the thing... "Sheez, what kind of women is this guy hanging around?"



> We can go to websites (like the Attraction forums link above) where they TRAIN YOU to act all confident while you have zero character underneath all the BS


... or, you can find a good woman... like say... I did... and she can spend 15 years working on it. But what you end up with is the real deal. And as a bonus prize you get a good woman. The other thing I find funny is that I have never been confident around women. But somehow I've never been single and seldom been looking for a date. Women seemed to like some aspect of my awkward, fumbling, 80%-dysfunctional-with-women self.

Personally, I'm going to guess that the author is very successful with his strategies and the women he hangs with. I think that's a wonderful thing. They probably deserve each other. I think I'll worry about my own sense of masculinity though... he can keep his vision of it.


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## SimplyAmorous

bubbly girl said:


> I remember years ago when my daughter was younger, I was telling my best friend that I worried that my daughter was too nice for her own good and kind of wished she'd be a little tougher. My friend told me, "they're are plenty of people that are aggressive and there's plenty of nasty people. It's nice to have people like your daughter in this world."


 I can relate to how you felt Bubby girl ....and it IS a little of a concern, if a child does not stand up for themselves...assert what they want ....and with daughters......what they DON'T want ! 

Our only daughter is so much like her DAD....same calm laid back temperment.... I noticed it as clear as day last summer...and many times since just in how she communicates --very subtly. I need to read her clues many times. 

I had to seriously :rofl: out loud at her attempt to get something she wanted... 

We were at a campground... she saw a Lion's head drinking fountain in the distance... she REALLY wanted a drink badly... but she wouldn't tell me this, oh no.... she doesn't want to "put anyone out" or bother them... 

So she sat there engaging me....talking about that fountain... asking if I seen it, how pretty it was, if I ever thought about a fountain like that , it think she even threw in "dreaming" about such a fountain (it was terribly silly, I can't remember exactly)..... I looked at her and said... "_____ you are killing me here... you want a drink over there ... you want me to walk over there with you so you can enjoy this Lion fountain?"... and she smiles real BIG...."YEAH !" 

Now if this was my youngest son, he would be pulling my leg, demanding a drink, probably causing a scene even, then telling me he was going to march over there & get it himself -if I wasn't coming! 

Some of us are subtle & more kind & some of us are OVERT & well.... we speak our minds. It is kinda in "our natures" to be one way or the other. 

So I worry.. my daughgter may be a bit too passive with the boys someday. I really hope & pray she will be attracted to the Gentleman type.....who will treat her right and consider her feelings, even though she may not be as forthcoming as she could be.


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## Goldmember357

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yours is the 1st reply I happen to fully appreciate on this thread- thus far, you seem to feel as I .
> 
> Some of MY thoughts on what I see as mockery ...
> 
> I know all about No More Mr Nice Guy, even as the wife, I bought the book.
> 
> Again, it is "the way" this is written... what if a Guy wants to be with his GF /wife all the time... my husband is like this...should I look down on him for this... he loves to spend time with me...he does not tire of it (Maybe he is a fool)....But guess what, I love that about him! We choose to do near everything together - he says.... "Why would you want to get married if you didn"t"? That is his reasoning. Pretty much mine also.
> 
> Where some people may see "Needy" or express it in such a way... I may see the Hopeless
> Romantic type of man......which I would not trample on. Because my husband is a Nice Guy to the bone, many would assume he is Needy... but he never showed his neediness to me ---even when he damn well should have! I have never felt him a burden or looked at him in those terms.
> 
> His self confidence is not through the roof by any means, but the truth of the matter is... His temperment type is known to struggle with this as a double introverted Phlegmatic/Melancholy. I don't down people or call them names for not being as ego centric as I can be at times -ha ha. It is just something to work on -just as the rest of us have something in our characters that needs a little refinement. Where he IS confident, is not really caring what others outside of his family thinks. I do dig that.
> 
> Kinda goes with #1 - my Bf/ now husband was like this , he did devote himself to me....why would I want otherwise? If this is what makes him happy, it is only a problem if the chick doesn't care for it ... I ate it up ! so how is this not a win / win.
> 
> He did not overly call - it was equal on both sides. I used to write him love letters (always the writer) ...& he always wrote me one back. (still have them all saved)... I learned about a year ago, he told me he didn't really like doing that (writing is not his thing) but he did it anyway -for me. I suppose that is a sign of being TOO NICE - but I sure appreciated it back then.
> 
> Anyway...why go out with a bunch of guys --just so they think your ass is cool -if that is not what you really want to do, if you would rather just hang out with your girl. To be honest, when we met, our friends on both sides took a hit, it became about "us" at that point. Been that way ever since.
> 
> The writer of this article probably thinks being Best friends with your lover is also retarted.


:iagree:

That is how i think of it i dont think i am a "doormat" at all i am far from that. I have made my wife cry before and i am not proud of that but i am by no mean's a doormat and i am a very nice guy.

I think most people are unhappy in life so they paint negative images on relationships. The Author of that stupid Post/blog you posted is likely unhappy and has a pessimistic out look on relationships. 



CLucas976 said:


> The article irritates me.
> 
> I know a lot of "nice guys" that aren't by any means doormats, or empty little minions like this article depicts them to be.
> 
> and why honestly, would you want to convey to all men that they need to be *******s to get women?


I think whoever wrote the article is unhappy in life. Thank you btw not all of us nice guy's are doormats.


----------



## Goldmember357

Good men should date and marry Good women and often they do.

Good girls/Good women date and marry the good guys/good men

Good people are made for Good people

People who are distracted or corrupted often find out the hard way. Sometimes good people are naive and led and led on or get into a relationship with a bad person and not till further in the relationship they realize there person is bad and they messed up dating that person. 

Good men who date the "bad girl" the party girl "****" will find out the hard way that its not a wise choice.

Good women who date the "bad boy" the guy who apparently is a perfect rebel. They will find out the hard way that it was not a wise choice.


People often chose their own paths by who they chose to associate with that involves hanging out with and dating certain people.


----------



## Peachy Cat

I have a "nice guy". He's just genuinely nice. He's respectful to others. He's kind to children and animals. He opens doors for anyone that happens to be coming up to the door at the same time (man, woman...). He's just really NICE. He's not a doormat, he's not needy (well maybe a little, when he's sick-LOL), he's not totally dependent on me for his happiness. He's just a thoughtful, kind person.

I wouldn't change him for the world.


----------



## arbitrator

Peachy Cat said:


> I have a "nice guy". He's just genuinely nice. He's respectful to others. He's kind to children and animals. He opens doors for anyone that happens to be coming up to the door at the same time (man, woman...). He's just really NICE. He's not a doormat, he's not needy (well maybe a little, when he's sick-LOL), he's not totally dependent on me for his happiness. He's just a thoughtful, kind person.
> 
> I wouldn't change him for the world.


You got yourself a good man there, Peachy! Hang on to him! They are a rare commodity!


----------



## DTO

SimplyAmorous said:


> Nope, the signs were there, the controlling issues. He did pamper her- he had more $$ than the nice guy, isn't it always something like this.. and Oh the confidence, heck he thought he knew everything, every time we talked to him, he owned the best and he WAS the best. Me & husband always used to joke about it afterwards & make fun of him. Nope, nothing humble about the man. To me, those were red flags.
> 
> But the other guy was gone, she was getting older, she wanted a baby -he seemed to be it -willing , wanting one too. Truthfully, they were too much alike, both strong headed.... and not enough in common.
> 
> She accually had alot more in common with the Good guy she let go. I am not sure what she was looking for back then. All I know is she regets her decisions very much.


Sounds like maybe neither was right and she should have kept on looking. That attitude of hers might be a sign of "at least he would have done XYZ" which sounds more like a lack of respect and a consolation prize than actually wanting him.


----------



## DTO

bubbly girl said:


> SA, the way you've described your husband in your posts, I've never considered him a wimp, or doormat, or anything of the sort. I've always pictured him as a laid back, easygoing guy. There's nothing wrong with that.
> 
> I remember years ago when my daughter was younger, I was telling my best friend that I worried that my daughter was too nice for her own good and kind of wished she'd be a little tougher. My friend told me, "they're are plenty of people that are aggressive and there's plenty of nasty people. It's nice to have people like your daughter in this world."
> 
> That's how I see "nice guys". There is nothing wrong with someone being nice or considerate or loving, whether they are male or female.
> 
> I wouldn't take that article too seriously. The article (if you could even consider that an article) looks like a fluff piece that you'd find in a Cosmo magazine, but geared towards men.


The key is whether the guy in question is really happy with the situation (typically giving much and getting little in return), or is he secretly pining for more and hoping to get it because he's too timid or insecure to ask directly.

Note that NMMNG is not a relationship book. The core purpose is to show these men how they cause their own unhappiness (why those behaviors don't work) and how to break free in assume responsibility for and achieve happiness. Whether the women like or dislike the "Nice Guy" is incidental.

That being said, from a relationship aspect the problem is not the "niceness" per se. It is that the Nice Guy tends to hook up with ladies unwilling or unable to meet his needs (because he needs a fixer-upper). Or, if he does get with a healthy, giving lady such as yourself, how would you feel if he never showed any independent ambition? Or, for lack of willingness to discuss anything openly, he constantly lied or kept serving you but bottled up resentment until he just exploded?

I did not willingly marry a fixer-upper nor was I a full on Nice Guy. But I did learn some of those tendencies due to my ex's dysfunction and found the book helpful in overcoming that. And, by participating on that bulletin board, I learned that men who ARE that bad do exist.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

DTO said:


> Sounds like maybe neither was right and she should have kept on looking. That attitude of hers might be a sign of "at least he would have done XYZ" which sounds more like a lack of respect and a consolation prize than actually wanting him.


I agree with you, she wasn't any prize either, if I must say myself .....accually I think he dodged a bullet by her breaking up with him. Good for him, I liked him more than her anyway.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

DTO said:


> That being said, from a relationship aspect the problem is not the "niceness" per se. It is that the Nice Guy tends to hook up with ladies unwilling or unable to meet his needs (because he needs a fixer-upper). Or, if he does get with a healthy, giving lady such as yourself, *how would you feel if he never showed any independent ambition*?


 My husband will never be the CEO type, you couldn't even pay him to be a Boss, he wouldn't want the job. 

Is he Independent.... sure..... He can handle any job thrown at him...superb handyman...he doesn't even like to ask for help , sometimes I want to yell at him over this..... . he could live his life alone, be decently happy, go to work every day, be an honorable man who has something to give back to society. 

Do I need someone who is climbing up the ladder of success, making 6 figures a year -when a blue collar job earns sufficient to keep a family financially afloat (with $$ saved) where he comes home every day, every bill is paid the moment it hits the mailbox....plus we are debt free. I don't need more than that, he also does not care for more than that. That is enough ambition for me. Some women look for the wealthy, I was never like this. I cared more about LOVE.. but financial responsiblity is a MUST. 



> Or, for lack of willingness to discuss anything openly, he constantly lied or kept serving you but bottled up resentment until he just exploded?


 I would be LIVID if this was going on -- NO, that would not be working .. that is one of the reasons I was so very upset with him when we finally opened up about our past....the sexual, learning he was building resentment - our story here : http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...l-etc-how-robs-us-intimacy-we-crave-most.html

Does any of this happen any more.. not at all. We talk about it all, he is more assertive, more vulnerable . He was never a liar .. Hider of his feeling....yes... outright LYING.... NO. 

Even back then, had I taken the time to ASK , he would have given me a truthful answer. The only time I think he ever lied to me... was, and he claims it was the way I asked the question that he didn't answer honestly... I remember asking him years ago if he was jealous I had the baby in bed with us... Now that was a real opportunity to say.. .LOOK woman, you are my wife , I want you, and the baby needs to go"... but he didn't -he denied that it bothered him. 

Would He do that today.. .NO!! 



> I did not willingly marry a fixer-upper nor was I a full on Nice Guy. But I did learn some of those tendencies due to my ex's dysfunction and found the book helpful in overcoming that. And, by participating on that bulletin board, I learned that men who ARE that bad do exist.


 What bulletin board are you talking about?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Goldmember357 said:


> Good men should date and marry Good women and often they do.
> 
> Good girls/Good women date and marry the good guys/good men
> 
> Good people are made for Good people
> 
> People who are distracted or corrupted often find out the hard way. Sometimes good people are naive and led and led on or get into a relationship with a bad person and not till further in the relationship they realize there person is bad and they messed up dating that person.
> 
> Good men who date the "bad girl" the party girl "****" will find out the hard way that its not a wise choice.
> 
> Good women who date the "bad boy" the guy who apparently is a perfect rebel. They will find out the hard way that it was not a wise choice.
> 
> 
> People often chose their own paths by who they chose to associate with that involves hanging out with and dating certain people.


Thank you Goldmember for your thoughts, I pretty much try to teach my children the same principles you laid out right here. 

It is very concerning to me personally -about the character of anyone my children hangs with...and their girlfriends & boyfriends, even more so...

My 3rd young son has a new gf, she won't tell him what another boy was doing to her. She told him his name, that he is bothering her, then got all secretive on him. He doesn't like it. We talked about it... He understands this is a red flag.... A girl getting you all upset , but won't tell you why.... what is the point of that. 

Secrets are just NOT Ok in a relationship. I don't want him to go down that path, it is not respectable. I know she is young, but she's going to loose him if she doesn't get her act together.


----------



## arbitrator

Excuse me for my often faulty logic, but in a perfect world, good men should be able to attract good women and vice-versa. The only thing that might throw a monkey-wrench into that mechanism might possibly be the old mantra of "opposites attracting." You could have the situation of a "bad boy" who wants a "bad girl," but falls in love with a "good girl." The novelty of winning over the "good girl" makes him feel so complete, but only up until such time that the novelty starts to wear off.

He then has two available options: (1) Stay with the "good girl" and change his lifestyle to suit her/ or hers to suit him, or (2) start the search for the "bad girl" of his dreams, laying waste to his newfound relationship.

I firmly believe that opposites have the marked tendancy to attract, but through the process of give and take and trial and error, that true love can be found!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

arbitrator said:


> Excuse me for my often faulty logic, but in a perfect world, good men should be able to attract good women and vice-versa. The only thing that might throw a monkey-wrench into that mechanism might possibly be the old mantra of "*opposites attracting*." You could have the situation of a "bad boy" who wants a "bad girl," but falls in love with a "good girl." The novelty of winning over the "good girl" makes him feel so complete, but only up until such time that the novelty starts to wear off.
> 
> He then has two available options: (1) Stay with the "good girl" and change his lifestyle to suit her/ or hers to suit him, or (2) start the search for the "bad girl" of his dreams, laying waste to his newfound relationship.
> 
> I firmly believe that opposites have the marked tendancy to attract, but through the process of give and take and trial and error, that true love can be found!


Me & my husband is a supreme example of Opposites... not in this good / bad thing so much though.. Neither of us was ever partyers , wreckless, live by the seat of your pants & hope not to get caught -type people...... We have both always been more on the cautious / responsible side of the coin....though if anyone was BAD...it was me, and he was the GOOD one. My attitude was worse when we were younger. 

*1. * Where he is more mild mannered, quiet & laid back....I am boisterous & assertive

*2.* Where he is always kind & considerate, I can be ruthless & brash (if I don't watch myself)

*3*. He is man of supreme patience --I have little (except in communication for some reason - much patience there)

*4.* I love English & hate Math.... he excells at Math & hates English

*5*. Where I enjoy some Conflict , even invite it -- he shuns it

*6*. Where I find Debate a JOY - he would see it as pressure 

*7*. He is the more Passive, I the more Aggressive. 

*8*. My primary temperment is *Choleric* , he has virtually none of that... His is a *Phlegmatic*, I have virtually none of that... 

 Personality Test HERE

But yet amazingly..... what he lacks... I make up for . What I lack... he makes up for... so together we make a glorious whole..we work well as a team. 

But it sure helps IF such personality opposites have similar *love languages *in a similar order (we do!), the same goals & dreams (we do !), a *RESPECT* for each other (always did -but I needed more -I am there now)...and Attraction (always there).


----------



## hookares

It does seem there's a trend toward dissing the "nice guy" in many publications. One I stumbled upon had a message board devoted to "My Affair Support" where women who are having affairs refer to their cuckold husbands as "DH". WTF is the dear husband reference all about when they clearly mean "DUMB AZZED HUSBAND?


----------



## allthegoodnamesaregone

okeydokie said:


> is there a list anywhere that describes why women are never happy with what they have?



LOL, so true, I'd like to see this. Chris Rock did a show on this, it's hilarious. Just youtube "Chris Rock love" I almost choked to deaf laughing...


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

I'm in love with my nice guy husband. Never in a million years would I ever take him for granted. I treat him with the up most respect. 

I try to never take anything for granted. Everyday I count my blessings and am thankful for what we have. My husband and I have a beautiful family, home and pets.


----------



## arbitrator

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> I'm in love with my nice guy husband. Never in a million years would I ever take him for granted. I treat him with the up most respect.
> 
> I try to never take anything for granted. Everyday I count my blessings and am thankful for what we have. My husband and I have a beautiful family, home and pets.


Thanks, I'mInLove, for your beautiful assessment of sticking up for us "nice guys" in life, giving us our credence in a world that would rather assign a mundane label and some psychological theory beside us.

And I might add that there are "nice girls" out there as well; you just have to search them out to find out where they are!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> I'm in love with my nice guy husband. Never in a million years would I ever take him for granted. I treat him with the up most respect.


Well I can't boast that I was always this wonderful...cause I wasn't.... I DID take my husband for granted, putting the children before him for a time....after 6 yrs of infertility , in our 30's - we went on to have 5 kids... I was so monumentally overjoyed with these babies coming... I lost site of the man who helped me create them! I was in a dreamy Mommy Heaven, just so thankful for those gifts. 

I never did anything to him -that he feels was detrimental, that he had to pick his heart up off the ground from... he loved me through it all. 

But I often regret being as clueless as I was. He had a role to play in asserting himself to his needs more so... this he failed at, he sees this now. Some men need to be a little MORE SELFISH... this I would say of my husband. I wouldn't have faulted him for it.....never. 

So in that respect, we are both guilty..... we have forgiven each other from the heart.


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## Bluemoon1

Reading this thread, it's clear that many people do not not really know or understand what is being described as Nice Guy Syndrome, suffice to say it's not that nice for anyone involved


----------



## arbitrator

SimplyAmorous said:


> So in that respect, we are both guilty..... we have forgiven each other from the heart.


You're one beautiful lady, Simply! You're truly a living testament to the power of forgiveness! God bless you!


----------



## nice777guy

SA - from what you've said about your H before, I don't think he'd really pay much attention to this topic.

He may or may not be a "Nice Guy." Whats most important is that he sounds comfortable with who he is.

You can't always control your reputation - but your reputation isn't who you really are. It's just what other people think of you.


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## Enchantment

I think there's a big difference between being a "nice guy" like that described in Glover's book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" who are guys that essentially have self-esteem issues and feel they must defer to get what they desire and a man who does not have those issues and is essentially nice or polite to others.

I think my husband is essentially a nice/polite man, which I love about him...but he's not a "nice guy" in Glover's sense who allows others to take advantage of him... very much not. 

You can still be essentially a nice/polite individual without letting someone stomp on you. There are times to be nice, and there are times to be nicely firm, if you know what I mean.


----------



## Browncoat

Enchantment said:


> You can still be essentially a nice/polite individual without letting someone stomp on you. There are times to be nice, and there are times to be nicely firm, if you know what I mean.


It's funny you should mention that. I did read that book, and I've always thought of myself a nice guy (as does my wife and my friends). The way they described it in the book, absolute push over. That's just not me.

I'm more like how you described above, nice/polite but I don't let others stomp on me (unless I just don't care, i.e. I hardly ever see them and they don't matter in my life).


----------



## Lon

Enchantment said:


> I think there's a big difference between being a "nice guy" like that described in Glover's book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" who are guys that essentially have self-esteem issues and feel they must defer to get what they desire and a man who does not have those issues and is essentially nice or polite to others.


For us nice guys who are genuinely nice/polite and also happen to fit into Glover's definition the difference is not very big at all and hard to tell the difference sometimes.



> I think my husband is essentially a nice/polite man, which I love about him...but he's not a "nice guy" in Glover's sense who allows others to take advantage of him... very much not.


Then I think in cases like this you forfeit your specific husband as an example of the low SE type on comments like this.



> You can still be essentially a nice/polite individual without letting someone stomp on you. There are times to be nice, and there are times to be nicely firm, if you know what I mean.


And that is the challenge that the low SE type/Glover defined niceguys like me face - we can't simply say "Don't tread on me" because it doesn't work that way, calling attention to ourselves is just asking to be tread on. We are not wired to coerce others to accommodate our way of thinking, and in actuality we have found very successful ways to avoid being stomped on, that is by withdrawing, blending in, not offending others and when someone does trample on us we avoid inviting more punishment by taking our abuse. We are not called doormats because we like being trampled, we are doormats because doormats are better at getting stepped on than our hearts.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Bluemoon1 said:


> Reading this thread, it's clear that many people do not not really know or understand what is being described as Nice Guy Syndrome, suffice to say it's not that nice for anyone involved


I know exactly what that Syndrome is about.... I have the book "No More Mr Nice Guy".... I explain where my husband had a # of those symptoms in post #14 of this thread...

Lon.... what is an *SE type*, I don't know what that means?


----------



## Lon

SE=self esteem


----------



## Jeff/BC

Lon said:


> For us nice guys who are genuinely nice/polite and also happen to fit into Glover's definition the difference is not very big at all and hard to tell the difference sometimes.


That is predictable. It's hard to tell the difference with me too 95% of the time. There'd really be no way to know until a boundary has been transgressed.



> We are not wired to coerce others to accommodate our way of thinking


That's an interesting way to put it. I seldom see myself coercing others into my way of thinking. Generally, I see myself as simply saying, "If you do this, then I will do that." I'm not demanding anything of them. I'm simply informing them of what MY action will be. I feel comfortable with my right to act as I choose within the limits of the law and my own honor system. For instance, in my own head I have every right in the world to tell Carol,

_If you install a keylogger on my computer I will divorce you._

It absolutely IS my right to divorce her for any reason whatsoever or for no reason at all (we think legally, not religiously on this one). So I see that as a really important piece of information that would be very valuable and helpful for her to know. I'm not coercing anyone. Nor am I "bluffing" in an attempt to manipulate. It's a simple statement of fact.

Not, by the way, that I'm naive. I get what you're saying. I was just fascinated at the way you put it and wondered what you'd make of my viewpoint.


----------



## SA's husband

Lon said:


> And that is the challenge that the low SE type/Glover defined niceguys like me face - we can't simply say "Don't tread on me" because it doesn't work that way, calling attention to ourselves is just asking to be tread on. We are not wired to coerce others to accommodate our way of thinking, and in actuality we have found very successful ways to avoid being stomped on, that is by withdrawing, blending in, not offending others and when someone does trample on us we avoid inviting more punishment by taking our abuse. We are not called doormats because we like being trampled, we are doormats because doormats are better at getting stepped on than our hearts.


I understand how you feel here, I never liked conflict either. 

In the past when my wife would irritate me I would say "yes dear" because I knew she would never give up what she was after, this got her attention, she didn't like that and would fire back at me, or come and lightly hit me not liking me saying that, but I knew I got the point across. She knew I wasn't happy. 

There is alot less "yes dears" these days.


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## Lon

SA's husband said:


> I understand how you feel here, I never liked conflict either.
> 
> In the past when my wife would irritate me I would say "yes dear" because I knew she would never give up what she was after, this got her attention, she didn't like that and would fire back at me, or come and lightly hit me not liking me saying that, but I knew I got the point across. She knew I wasn't happy.
> 
> There is alot less "yes dears" these days.


uh oh, I hope you meant that "in the past" really means in the past and that "yes dear" means something different than it did before?

If you are SA's real H, I am surprised by your Al Bundy avatar... the love she expresses for you on these forums certainly doesn't make me think of a Peg Bundy - quite the opposite!


----------



## SA's husband

Lon said:


> uh oh, I hope you meant that "in the past" really means in the past and that "yes dear" means something different than it did before?
> 
> If you are SA's real H, I am surprised by your Al Bundy avatar... the love she expresses for you on these forums certainly doesn't make me think of a Peg Bundy - quite the opposite!


No, I am just Al, she picked out the avatar. My wife says I have his dry humor but I don't cut on the family so much, it is outsiders. I don't think there is anyone like my wife to be found in this world, she is one of a kind. She didn't piss me off all the time, but when she did, that is how I got my point across. But I wouldn't trade her for anything in this world.


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## Thundarr

There are nice guys who take care of business and defend their core beliefs and then there are nice guys who are just emotionally weak or lazy.

The cliche "nice guy" refers to the pushover to me and not just some guy who happens to be nice.


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## Juicer

That list was me in high school...
And college...
And grad school...
And parts of it still kinda describe me.....
Why don't I learn?!?
Dangn't!!!

Well, guess as I look back, I didn't really do any better than those jerks. 
I remember girls I knew would date jerks and losers, then they would get dumped or cheated on, and I would always act surprised and say they are better off with out them, and it usually ended with me being told I am such a good friend...
But I was the nice guy for the girlfriend to cry to. While her boyfriend was with some other girl.
Then when I finally get in the dating world, and marriage world, didn't turn out quite how I hoped...

I will agree there is the door mat nice guy, and the good guy...but when does being a good guy actually pay off? Or does it? Because so far it doesn't seem like it does...or it didn't for me anyway. 
And I am willing to bet, if a jerk and a good guy, or even a nice guy, was asked to rate how much of his was happy, sad, miserable, the jerk's happiness percentage would be bigger than the nice guy's or the good guy's happiness percentage.


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## Gaia

There is far to much black and white thinking here and juicer... I would have to disagree with you on your last part. People assume jerks are happy because they get laid a lot... but they fail to realize... jerks get themselves into a whole shyt storm of drama for being jerks. So... just because they may get laid... doesn't mean they are happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr

Juicer said:


> Why don't I learn?!?
> Dangn't!!!


It's hard to fight your nature.




Juicer said:


> Well, guess as I look back, I didn't really do any better than those jerks.
> I remember girls I knew would date jerks and losers, then they would get dumped or cheated on, and I would always act surprised and say they are better off with out them, and it usually ended with me being told I am such a good friend...


Yea the friend zone is not a good place.



Juicer said:


> I will agree there is the door mat nice guy, and the good guy...but when does being a good guy actually pay off? Or does it? Because so far it doesn't seem like it does...or it didn't for me anyway.


I think a nice guy can get to the right balance easier than the jerk.

There are a few things that go a long way. Be decisive, when you want something don't beat around the bush, stand firm to your core beliefs and hold yourself and others accountable and then it's a matter of time before people notice.

Don't sabotage your good qualities with a few bad ones. Indecisiveness, insecurity, wishy-washy stances, not voicing what you want, not knowing what you want, letting anyone man or woman treat you disrespectfully, etc. These are all qualities that will make you look less attractive.

I think I'm a nice guy but I've always had that inner jerk that would come out. Sometimes when needed and sometimes too quickly. I've never been a rude, obnoxious type but definitely have been defensive with being treated disrespectfully and have had a temper.


----------



## Caribbean Man

This seems to be one of those topics where everyone wants to be politically correct.

I have never been called a " nice guy."
Not even by my wife.
She says that I'm a good man. 
But she knows that I have " another side."

At one time,before we were married,there used to be this guy on her job harassing her and telling all sorts of sexual stuff which annoyed her. She asked me to come to he workplace with her so that he could just see me because she had threatened him saying:
" I will bring my boyfriend to beat you up.."
Well, I went with her, and a little later he quit the job.

Most women like guys who do nice stuff for them.
Stuff that make them feel desired etc.
The problem with " nice guys" vis-à-vis women, is not that they do nice things, but their complete lack of assertiveness.
Get ten random females of varying ages and ask them what are their biggest turn on in a man.
Assertiveness [ self assurance / confidence] always ranks high.
Being " nice " ranks very low.
So whereas they would like a giy who's sensitive , thoughtful , listens to them and understand moods,
They want a MAN who can stand firm and hard when shyt happens,even when they themselves are the reason the shyt happened.
Because no matter how good things are,
Shyt happens!

'Nice Guys " somehow don't do that.


----------



## Gaia

And I third it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> Most women like guys who do nice stuff for them.
> Stuff that make them feel desired etc.
> The problem with " nice guys" vis-à-vis women, is not that they do nice things, but their complete lack of assertiveness.
> Get ten random females of varying ages and ask them what are their biggest turn on in a man.
> Assertiveness [ self assurance / confidence] always ranks high.


 This is very true, as I see it in the thread replies of women all the time.... why I say women shouldn't complain about the double standard so much in men.... becuase you are absolutely correct, she is looking for confidence -assertiveness...at the top of the rank... his sexual past means very little to her, never even mentioned generally. Nice men have fewer partners but they turn their nose to them. 



> Being " nice " ranks very low.
> So whereas they would like a giy who's sensitive , thoughtful , listens to them and understand moods,
> They want a MAN who can stand firm and hard when shyt happens,even when they themselves are the reason the shyt happened.
> Because no matter how good things are,
> Shyt happens!


 Well, I wanted sensitive, thoughtful, and listens to me -HUGE for this woman. The character of the man, meant more to me than his outward show of Confidence (because to me, these things can be built in anyone and we all deserve a chance)....but we met young anyway -not that all teens are bursting with confidence... 

If some real sh** happened, he's be a son of a Bi*ch --but accually I am the more assertive one in our marriage. It still works for us. 

So to say there is no place for these men, they always finish last, I simply wouldn't agree.


----------



## ocotillo

Caribbean Man said:


> So whereas they would like a giy who's sensitive , thoughtful , listens to them and understand moods,
> They want a MAN who can stand firm and hard when shyt happens,even when they themselves are the reason the shyt happened.
> Because no matter how good things are,
> Shyt happens!
> 
> 'Nice Guys " somehow don't do that.


I don't know if this adds to or detracts from your observation:

The 'hero' phenomenon has been studied in psychology _ad nauseum._ (Military organizations have been collecting data for 70+ years) 

One way this has been done is by interviewing ordinary German people following WWII who stood up to the Nazis and comparing their personalities with those who did not.

Another way this has been done in the U.S. is by collecting and studying the psychological profiles of recipients of high awards for bravery like the Congressional Medal of Honor, The various service crosses and the Silver Star.

The profile that emerges for the majority is not the dominant Alpha. It is actually a subset of the Beta personality called the 'Beta Sociopath.' 

Of course as with all psychological studies, were dealing with generalities that don't necessarily apply to any given individual. Generally, the typical dominant Alpha protects himself and his interests. (e.g. Protecting 'His' woman from the sexual advances of another man.) Sometimes this coincides with the interests of others and sometimes it does not.

The Beta Sociopath lacks a social conscience and has little or no respect for rules. He would probably be a criminal except for the big streak of 'Nice Guy' in him that trammels those sociopathic tendencies. Although he doesn't typically protect his own interests, he does protect the interests of others. This is the personality type that sacrifices their life to help total strangers. 

So when I read about 'Nice Guys' not standing 'firm and hard' when shyt happens, I cringe. What would constitute 'shyt?' A dispute over a seat at a bar or a place in line? Or a burning building with children trapped inside? 

'Shyt' comes in many forms and the idea that one personality fits them all is a misconception.


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