# Justice Affairs, Reconciliation and the Kobayashi Maru Scenario



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

First post, but long time lurker. The archives of CWI are compelling reading and offer a graduate-level course on infidelity. Kudos to those seeking support (for volunteering their personal case-studies) and to the dedicated wise-folks who "man this desk" and offer wisdom. I'm not here as a victim of infidelity nor as someone whose gut is speaking (yelling) at them that something is off within his marriage, rather I'm simply scared ****less of this H-bomb going off in my life and want to be proactive in understanding what the hell could happen.

Just a bit about me before I get to the point of my post. I'm 42, wife is 36, I met her a few hours after she was born, she didn't impress me much, what with being bald and toothless and stinking and having a cry-baby personality, but her brother, that's guy impressed me, he was an awesome bike-rider, we played Legos and stuff together, both ran around screaming like banshees, he was awesome. Four years later I lived with her for a month and that was uneventful but foretold the future for us. Anyways, since the start of our romantic relationship, my wife and I have had very good boundaries we chose to impose on ourselves (passed down by our parents), we have a number of early-warning tripwires built into our interactions to alert us if either begins to pull-away, communication has always been excellent, so I'm not here due to a "coping" situation in my life.

So to the crux of my question. In Star Trek lore there is reference to the Kobayashi Maru scenario, a no-win scenario where no decision path leads to a good outcome and I'm wondering if any folks who've reconciled after infidelity have found a way to rebuild the self-esteem of the BS? I simply don't see how that is possible. Is it?

We know that one of the surest ways of rebuilding self-esteem and self-worth after a typical relationship break-up is to find either a new romantic partner or find a quick ONS and most folks recover from a zero level back to adequate or better levels. Same process after infidelity and separation/divorce.

Of course, a revenge or justice affair, attempted during reconciliation can produce the same outcome but now there are significant costs to the reconciled marriage and so if the goal really is to repair the marriage, then the victim, the BS, can't, or shouldn't, go the same route as those who've gone the route of divorce and put a salve on their self-esteem's gaping wound. So the gaping wound on self-esteem must remain open and festering while at the same time all of the heavy emotions of reconciliation are playing out. That's a tough road.

Compounding the problem, in my view, is the authenticity of the "Heavy Lifting" undertaken by the WS. What I mean by this is best illustrated by the classic example of the wife complaining to her husband "You never say "I love you" to me anymore." To which the husband responds "I love you" and the wife is completely unsatisfied with the inauthentic, pulled teeth style of response. What does a betrayed spouse want from the wayward in order to rebuild their self-esteem? Do they even know? If they do know, they can't actually say it to the wayward because then when the wayward offers what is asked, it is inauthentic. The wayward has to be a mindreader but that's impossible. How is this solved?

I see the rebuilding of the betrayed as a much more difficult task than the problems of conduct with the marriage. The conduct/behavior can be judged at face value - accounting for whereabouts, more open communication, etc. How though does the person who destroyed the betrayed's self-esteem go about rebuilding it anywhere near as effectively as a stranger who has authentic sexual/romantic attraction to the betrayed?

Now, why am I asking all of this? Because deep in the cellar of these archives, from 2012, is this thread:

*BS contacting old girlfriend during R*

Quick summary - A WW has a year-long affair and comes back to the marriage and reconciliation is undertaken after she confesses. Husband flies off to attend a wedding and believes in very inappropriate for a WW to be in attendance. While in the city he reconnects with an ex-GF. The married couple are only two months into reconciliation and both agreed to boundaries, one of which included no contact with ex's. The BH never caused problems which necessitated the creation of boundaries, it was the WW's choices which were the catalyst for the imposition of the boundaries. With a few exceptions in the comments, most folks were pretty down on the BH for violating agreed-upon boundaries by contacting his ex-GF. Most of the comments were, to my interpretation, very legalistic in nature, by which I mean they focused on the letter of the agreement and, like most laws, missed the justice aspect, the nuance of the situation. As the events unfolded it was never clear WHY the BH was texting with his ex in the city of the wedding he attended, most assumed he was engineering a revenge affair for himself,. many could understand the WHY, but couldn't condone such an affair because of the damage done to reconciliation. What struck me though was an alternate explanation, his going back to an ex-lover for some ego-stroking, having her blow some sunshine up his kilt, without actually having to bed her. Was he really such a worthless man that he deserved his wife going out and screwing another man for a year? The ex would be in a perfect place to validate his self-worth. No doubt this is extremely dangerous territory for a BH to be walking into, but it does speak to what could have been his quest to repair his sense of self-worth after his wife burned it to the ground.

So, recognizing that this is a dangerous strategy, recognizing that a justice/revenge affair is a Net-Negative, recognizing the mountain that a wandering wife has to climb in order to rebuild her husband's self-worth, how in the hell do reconciled BS deal with the rebuilding of their self-esteem/worth or is this ANOTHER cost that they must bear in order to reconcile, their self-esteem is permanently damaged and cannot be rebuilt because there is no really viable way to do it? 

What say you all?


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)

Having your 'self esteem' based upon your relationship with someone else is a bit of an oxymoron.

You need to, above all else, have inner self validation. Not to the point of arrogance, but enough awareness to realise where those boundaries are.

Having this enables you to establish a set of moral/ethical boundaries which if anyone crosses (whether it be lover/partner/wife/husband/friend/relative), you can distance yourself enough to re-evaluate where you both stand, and whether a continuation of a relationship is called for.


Edit: When it comes to a 'no win situation', do as Captain Kirk did... Change the rules


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Luminous said:


> Having your 'self esteem' based upon your relationship with someone else is a bit of an oxymoron.
> 
> You need to, above all else, have inner self validation. Not to the point of arrogance, but enough awareness to realise where those boundaries are.
> 
> ...


I agree that this is how matters should be, but I also observe a whole lot of people rushing out to get laid after they suffer some relationship rejection and then reporting that they feel much better about themselves. I also observe that a whole lot of WS enter into infidelity because they want to feel better about themselves by mainlining on the attention that others give them. This is the classic Is vs. Ought dynamic.


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> I agree that this is how matters should be, but I also observe a whole lot of people rushing out to get laid after they suffer some relationship rejection and then reporting that they feel much better about themselves. I also observe that a whole lot of WS enter into infidelity because they want to feel better about themselves by mainlining on the attention that others give them. This is the classic Is vs. Ought dynamic.


I would ask of these examples, how long is their 'feeling good about themselves' prevalent?

It still predicates itself on them needing validation/acceptance from another person, which was what caused their grief in the first place.

There are a multitude of reasons that WS enter into infidelity, but at the base of it, alot of those issues stem from their lack of self acceptance, and relying of the acceptance of others to define their own sense of 'self' worth


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Luminous said:


> I would ask of these examples, how long is their 'feeling good about themselves' prevalent?
> 
> It still predicates itself on them needing validation/acceptance from another person, which was what caused their grief in the first place.
> 
> There are a multitude of reasons that WS enter into infidelity, but at the base of it, alot of those issues stem from their lack of self acceptance, and relying of the acceptance of others to define their own sense of 'self' worth


Of the people who go out and get laid in order to validate themselves, there seem to be a few subsets, one group needs validations from multiple people, another group settles into a new relationship and seem ok. The folks I find interesting are those who need a "one and done" encounter, like it resets a sticky valve or something in their self-esteem meter. They just need someone to boost them up, once it's done (maybe they proved something to themselves?) then they're OK with going celibate until they heal or find the right partner or whatever, but their self-esteem seems to be repaired.

Then, of course, there are the people you're championing, these people have high internal locus of control and take charge of how they feel about themselves. Frankly I don't see/read much about these folks. I read a lot about people who, freshly dumped or "on a break" rush out and get laid, and then some of them reconcile and have screwed up their relationships because they screwed another person during that one week break, needing to get screwed because they felt rejected, they couldn't even wait a day or two in some cases.

I understand your point about how matters should be, but I'm sure seeing/reading a lot about how matters seem to be.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

His feelings and actions are 'understandable'.

Understandable does not always equate to acceptable.

The couple initially made vows to each other to be faithful, she broke those vows for at least a year.
He did not.

Normally, she would get no say in how he later responds to her cheating. 
She broke the marriage bond.

However, he made a second vow and he broke that vow.

A promise is a promise.
A promise broken cannot be re-imagined into something different.

She got what she deserved.
And, he got what she deserved, also.

Mess-deeds have a way of rubbing off onto others.


_King Brian-_


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Deleted. I'll repost after some meetings.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Of the people who go out and get laid in order to validate themselves, there seem to be a few subsets, one group needs validations from multiple people, another group settles into a new relationship and seem ok. The folks I find interesting are those who need a "one and done" encounter, like it resets a sticky valve or something in their self-esteem meter. They just need someone to boost them up, once it's done (maybe they proved something to themselves?) then they're OK with going celibate until they heal or find the right partner or whatever, but their self-esteem seems to be repaired.


Then there's the people who don't care to be validated, that go out and have sex with different people sometimes in relationships and sometimes outside of such things. Simply because they like having a lot of sex and would be climbing the walls if they weren't getting any.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Lance Mannion said:


> First post, but long time lurker. The archives of CWI are compelling reading and offer a graduate-level course on infidelity. Kudos to those seeking support (for volunteering their personal case-studies) and to the dedicated wise-folks who "man this desk" and offer wisdom. I'm not here as a victim of infidelity nor as someone whose gut is speaking (yelling) at them that something is off within his marriage, rather I'm simply scared ****less of this H-bomb going off in my life and want to be proactive in understanding what the hell could happen.
> 
> Just a bit about me before I get to the point of my post. I'm 42, wife is 36, I met her a few hours after she was born, she didn't impress me much, what with being bald and toothless and stinking and having a cry-baby personality, but her brother, that's guy impressed me, he was an awesome bike-rider, we played Legos and stuff together, both ran around screaming like banshees, he was awesome. Four years later I lived with her for a month and that was uneventful but foretold the future for us. Anyways, since the start of our romantic relationship, my wife and I have had very good boundaries we chose to impose on ourselves (passed down by our parents), we have a number of early-warning tripwires built into our interactions to alert us if either begins to pull-away, communication has always been excellent, so I'm not here due to a "coping" situation in my life.
> 
> ...


A big part of the subject you are bringing up really depends on internal workings.

I will only speak for myself as a man.

Most of the issues aren't that big of a deal if your validation comes from the right place and you don't have your value and self worth tied to someone else's choices and actions.

It also helps to NOT put women on a pedestal and realize they are just flawed, imperfect and weak humans just like the rest of us. They are just as capable of making great choices and doing honorable and noble things as they are to make horrible decisions and have times of weakness and days where their overall attractiveness as a human being couldn't exceed uncle Fester.

Now I don't tolerate infidelity in my personal life at all but I'm not hung up on the sex my partner would have had. If she enjoyed it more, if he was really big and/or skillful, etc. nothing along those lines would dent my self esteem it self image.

I'm extremely confident and have been since high school and that is a characteristic that has nothing to do with anyone else.

My experience might account for it some but I believe I would still be confident if I even had gone to my marriage bed a virgin.

As is, I had a lot of experience with women before meeting my wife and I have also learned a great deal about a woman's sexual anatomy and feelings.

My wife had a lot of sex and many partners before me. Her first husband had what could be described as a log hanging down there.

Her most memorable partner before me was not even close to her first husband who was not very damn good in bed.

Her best experience before me was a one night stand with a pretty average guy who was soft, gentle and took his time with her to make sure she felt good.

My first time with her was pretty bad for both of us but we got to it about 30 more times that first week and by the halfway point, she was literally making animal noises and occasionally howling like a very happy puppy.

I am convinced that I have been her best lover hands down and I have had nearly 30 years to perfect my art with her but even if I wasn't her best or most mind blowing sex partner, I still wouldn't miss a wink of sleep over it because we both enjoy our sex together, we are committed to each other and really love each other as well.

I wouldn't have an issue with almost every insecurity that has been mentioned in any infidelity forum.

I am territorial sexually however, and I don't tolerate a defiled bed.

I don't care if the affair partner was a pudgy, unattractive, balding guy with bad breath and a Vienna sausage for a penis or if he was a 6'4" physical god who was the premier giver of multiple and explosive orgasms and hung like a thick donkey.

Both examples and anything in between would have violated my very personal and treasured intimacy and that is what I couldn't tolerate.

Now if I was to keep a cheater, she would have to basically convince me she changed her ways and was absolutely my property.

Once I take ownership, so to speak, of a woman, she is mine and I expect her to behave like it and I'm really not that concerned about a lot of peripheral things.

I also might enjoy being a good lover for my mate but that certainly isn't where I place my self worth and value. I also expect to be pleased in the bedroom and my mate had some work to do to get her bases covered there.

A cheater would have something to be ashamed of and a lot to prove to me. I would have nothing to be ashamed of or prove.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Ha! And this is why I would just ****** off, fk reconciliation. I wouldn't expect a wayward spouse to be able to go the distance with reconciliation - and yes, heavy lifting is all on them, so sorry not sorry. And hell even if they could I would leave them anyway lol 

Esteem would not be the issue for me however, trust would, and without trust - I wouldn't even consider someone worth being within my inner circle.

Spouses are all ultimately replaceable, the women in my life were/are all of quality, including my ex-wife who I divorced for several other reasons but she remains a co-parent to this day and a friend, and even includes my past friends with benefits believe it or not. Cheaters are so common sure but even a small percentage of trustworthy individuals is still a sizable enough number of quality potentials that it makes little to no difference to your options as long as you uphold your standards - and as most others don't (lol)

My solution to the Kobayashi Maru scenario: Join the Klingons. How does that relate to my solution with infidelity? I'm no longer in a position where I'm set to lose, by dumping my wayward spouse and opening myself up to new opportunities I am in a position to win.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Funny you should mention the Kobayashi Maru scenario. That teaches that the only way to win is to cheat!


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

RandomDude said:


> Spouses are all ultimately replaceable


To a degree, but not really. They're replaceable to the same extent that a baby, your baby, which is switched at the hospital is replaceable. You left the maternity ward with a baby, so what are you so upset about? The baby you birthed went home with some other couple. No big deal, right?

We attach special meanings to our spouses, so the degree to which they are replaceable is a function of how much we value those meanings. 

Spouses are replaceable if we believe that a fitness test is the measure by which we judge replaceability. Is the new spouse as pleasant as the old, as attractive as the old, as educated as the old, as kind as the old, as sexual as the old, etc. Lots of people can pass muster by meeting minimum criteria, yet we see in the dating world that many times "perfect matches" just fizzle when they meet each other.

A woman that you shared your youth with, had your children with, built all of those memories with is not easily replaceable, not if you are attaching meaning to that history. Those days you had with her are now gone, that meaning is devalued. Now the replacement enters the picture, say you meet her when she is 45. She meets your livability criteria. The youngest she'll ever be with you is 45, her youth was spent with another dude(s). You don't get those memories and so you don't get to attach value to those absent memories. You're not going to have kids with her, so no memories there and no value from those absent memories. You get the idea. Sure, you can make new memories, can you enjoy the days you spend with her, but if you've lost VALUE, unique value, with the old wife, something which cannot be replicated, then the new wife is not really a replacement, she's more a best-you-can-do-substitute. Now keep in mind that what I'm comparing here is focused on losing something (memories, behavior, personality, etc) which you once valued, so is you were stuck with an alcoholic and bitter shrew, or a lazy spendaholic, and your new wife is a fresh ray of sunshine and brings joy to your life, then absolutely sure, you traded-up and your life is probably much better.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

So, who cheated - you or the Mrs.?


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Neither, apparently. The thread he refers to is close to home. I can tell you why in my case. Old gf was a good friend. I was reeling. I had lost sense of self and reality. Talking to old gf was to restore sense of self, because I was in need of comfort at a time when there was none, and because she cared.

My conversation with old gf was not an affair, though it was characterized as such by WW. BH discovering and confronting on WW's affair enters the world of unreality and false equivalence.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Blondilocks said:


> So, who cheated - you or the Mrs.?


No one. I'm trying to "buy insurance" and "buy prevention" to safeguard the marriage.

A lot of parents will teach religious values to their children, will teach morality, but then there is the sewer we call culture and it's working to undermine much of what many people value and adultery is soft-pedaled, the after-effects are not really explored in a lot of detail. Look, I'm among the converted here, no one here is giving a soft-pass to infidelity, excusing it, glamorizing it. I like the culture of this community. That's why I'm here.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Harken Banks said:


> Neither, apparently. The thread he refers to is close to home. I can tell you why in my case. Old gf was a good friend. I was reeling. I had lost sense of self and reality. Talking to old gf was to restore sense of self, because I was in need of comfort at a time when there was none, and because she cared.


How do you imagine your personal recovery would have played out if you had only your fWW and yourself available to rebuild your sense of self-worth? Did that ex-GF give you something that was not available within your marriage?


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

I am having trouble with the new quote feature. Old gf was helpful in that she was a tether to reality. Everything had become completely unreal and untethered. I could not make up from down. Where I got into trouble was old gf was openly offering switching in for WW, taking her place in my life. It was a bit more complicated. I had hurt old gf and felt badly about that. So the reconnection with old gf was also because I wanted to tell her she was great and my loss, not the other way around. That part had nothing to do with WW except that I had kind of broken things off with old gf for WW. I was not interested in sex or a romantic relationship iwth old gf and those things were never part of the conversation on my side, though old gf kind of pushed over the line a bit and I did not push back as forcefully as I should have. That is where I got into trouble. Old gf gave me the comfort of an old friend. And, yes, to an extent some reassurance. Reassurance that I was not completely insane. I wanted to talk to anyone who could help me tell up from down. WW seemed to be doing everything to convince me I had lost my mind and was pretty successful in that effort. There was very little of anything available within my marriage, so anything coming out of talking with old gf or pretty much any friend would have been more. Had I only WW, I suppose I would have been even more of hopeless mess. I had other friends. Good friends who went above and beyond. But I was pretty much a lost cause.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

And I had this place. People here gave me some good advice. Which I mostly did not follow. It starts here in Initial Foray if you care to read a cautionary tale.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Harken Banks said:


> I am having trouble with the new quote feature. Old gf was helpful in that she was a tether to reality. Everything had become completely unreal and untethered. I could not make up from down. Where I got into trouble was old gf was openly offering switching in for WW, taking her place in my life. It was a bit more complicated. I had hurt old gf and felt badly about that. So the reconnection with old gf was also because I wanted to tell her she was great and my loss, not the other way around. That part had nothing to do with WW except that I had kind of broken things off with old gf for WW. I was not interested in sex or a romantic relationship iwth old gf and those things were never part of the conversation on my side, though old gf kind of pushed over the line a bit and I did not push back as forcefully as I should have. That is where I got into trouble. Old gf gave me the comfort of an old friend. And, yes, to an extent some reassurance. There was very little of anything available within my marriage, so anything coming out of talking with old gf or pretty much any friend would have been more. Had I only WW, I suppose I would have been even more of hopeless mess. I had other friends. Good friends who went above and beyond. But I was pretty much a lost cause.


I can see why that old thread hit close to home for you. In that thread the fWW was enforcing newly imposed marital boundaries, imposed because she had trouble honoring the marriage, and that BH was now crossing the boundaries but it appeared, to me, that he was much like you, his connection with his ex-GF might have been an attempt to heal, she could remind him that she thought highly of him, he was a good man when he was with her, etc.

Those marital boundaries in that story are like a prison now for both, the wife though is the prisoner who deserves the boundaries, but the husband is trapped within those boundaries, like a prison guard forced to live in the prison and also locked up behind bars when his workshift ends. Best solution would have been to impose boundaries on her, not on him, not until later, after he healed somewhat.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> No one. I'm trying to "buy insurance" and "buy prevention" to safeguard the marriage.


Well that's an exercise in futility, since you can't guarantee your wife won't cheat on you. Just as your wife can't guarantee you won't cheat on her.

If your wife chooses to cheat on you, she will do exactly that. Likewise if you choose to cheat on your wife, you will do exactly that. It really isn't very complicated.

All you can really do is police yourself and hope for the best from your wife.



> Look, I'm among the converted here, no one here is giving a soft-pass to infidelity, excusing it, glamorizing it. I like the culture of this community. That's why I'm here.


Well you're mistaken since some people here aren't so black and white in their thinking, and they don't always have a problem with marital infidelity.

For example I don't care if other people cheat on their spouses (and I am not alone in holding that perspective), I also don't think extramarital partners have any obligation not to have sex with someones spouse, when they have made no vows of fidelity to that marriage. While there are plenty of instances when I think marital infidelity, is a terribly egregious betrayal and poor form. There are also other instances where I think marital infidelity, is perfectly reasonable conduct depending upon the situation.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Personal said:


> Well that's an exercise in futility, since you can't guarantee your wife won't cheat on you. Just as your wife can't guarantee you won't cheat on her.
> 
> If your wife chooses to cheat on you, she will do exactly that. Likewise if you choose to cheat on your wife, you will do exactly that. It really isn't very complicated.
> 
> All you can really do is police yourself and hope for the best from your wife.


Take a stopwatch and time yourself every single instance where you strap your kid into a car seat or with a seat belt, then also time yourself when you have to remove them. Do this for 15 years. Add up all of that time you've invested. And not one single accident has occurred in those 15 years. Was all of that effort worth your time? Could you have done something else with all of that time wasted and simply plunked your kids onto the car seat, unbuckled? No guarantees that your kid will be safe, either buckled in or left to "free range" in your moving car. Same thing with marriage, no guarantee, but the investment in prevention is worth the cost.

And for your last line, I'm of the same exact opinion. My wife holds an awesome power to seriously **** me up if it ever enters her mind to do so and I hold the same power over her. It's like skydiving, you hope and pray that your chute is packed properly and will open, otherwise kiss your ass goodbye, pancake.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> No one. I'm trying to "buy insurance" and "buy prevention" to safeguard the marriage.
> 
> A lot of parents will teach religious values to their children, will teach morality, but then there is the sewer we call culture and it's working to undermine much of what many people value and adultery is soft-pedaled, the after-effects are not really explored in a lot of detail. Look, I'm among the converted here, no one here is giving a soft-pass to infidelity, excusing it, glamorizing it. I like the culture of this community. That's why I'm here.


There is no insurance, marriage is supposed to be the insurance. That’s what sucks about getting cheated on, you put your faith into something that supposed to be your soft place to land and it rips your life into pieces instead and then takes a big sh!t on the remains. Yes, it’s terrifying to think it could happen to anyone, even if you are a great spouse and try your damndest to get it right there are still people that will take a gigantic crap on your heart and wait 16 years and several children later to do it! It sucks and it’s terrible. And I’m not bitter at all! Ha!

But in all honesty, that’s the risk you take with love and marriage. Everything is a risk. We know the statistics on marriage, we know happy marriage is even less probable over time... but we all do it anyway! We want that slim chance of a payoff. You just have to make the best choice you can in a partner and accept the risk of love. The End.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lance Mannion said:


> e how in the hell do reconciled BS deal with the rebuilding of their self-esteem/worth or is this ANOTHER cost that they must bear in order to reconcile, their self-esteem is permanently damaged and cannot be rebuilt because there is no really viable way to do it?


This is what Chumplady calls eating the ‘feces’sandwich on her website. 

In order to reconcile the marriage and keep the marriage, home and family intact, the BS does basically have to eat the feces sandwich and such it up and absorb the cost to their self esteem and dignity. 

The WS wins. 

They have the fun and excitement of getting some extra, then they get to decide if they want to stay in the home and marriage and even get to decide if they actually want to stop seeing the AP or not. 

But if the BS wants to remain in the marriage, they are the ones that have to suck up and eat the turd. They are the one that has to follow the rules and tie the line. They are the ones that have to live with the pain and humiliation and emasculation. 

The WS comes away with all the marbles. 

The BS gets a turd for lunch.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> This is what Chumplady calls eating the ‘feces’sandwich on her website.
> 
> In order to reconcile the marriage and keep the marriage, home and family intact, the BS does basically have to eat the feces sandwich and such it up and absorb the cost to their self esteem and dignity.
> 
> ...


Not every wayward gets to decide if they want to stay in the home and marriage. Some have spouses who have zero tolerance for cheating, and it's game over for the marriage.

I am one of those. No way would I stay in a relationship with a cheater.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> This is what Chumplady calls eating the ‘feces’sandwich on her website.
> 
> In order to reconcile the marriage and keep the marriage, home and family intact, the BS does basically have to eat the feces sandwich and such it up and absorb the cost to their self esteem and dignity.
> 
> ...


And that's why I see Revenge Affairs as Justice Affairs.They're really no different than our Justice System. We don't have a Revenge System to deal with crimes, we try to seek justice in those situations. A justice affair levels the playing field. But, but the cost is so high, the field is SOMEWHAT leveled between the two spouses, but their marriage, a separate entity unto itself, is further damaged.

When that affair is set in motion, this really is a no-win scenario and even the WS gets it in the shorts, sure they've one-upped the BS, but net on net, they're not really winning all of the marbles if they reconcile.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Livvie said:


> Not every wayward gets to decide if they want to stay in the home and marriage. Some have spouses who have zero tolerance for cheating, and it's game over for the marriage.
> 
> I am one of those. No way would I stay in a relationship with a cheater.


I don’t think any person who has ever been cheated on has said “Yeah, I’ll totally stay with a cheater.” Everyone says there is no way we would stay. But when it happens, for most of us it’s completely different in reality. Like knowing the Grand Canyon is there, and then seeing it for the first time.

And yes, I got my payback for my silly notion, but the point is, it’s something that can’t be explained until it happens.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Take a stopwatch and time yourself every single instance where you strap your kid into a car seat or with a seat belt, then also time yourself when you have to remove them. Do this for 15 years.


Wow if I had to strap up a kid of mine to a car seat for 15 years. It would be fair to say that the child has a significant intellectual/physical disability and or I ****ed up at parenting big time.

I mean seriously, let alone your lack of experience of infidelity. Do you even have any experience of being a parent?



> Add up all of that time you've invested. And not one single accident has occurred in those 15 years. Was all of that effort worth your time? Could you have done something else with all of that time wasted and simply plunked your kids onto the car seat, unbuckled? No guarantees that your kid will be safe, either buckled in or left to "free range" in your moving car. Same thing with marriage, no guarantee, but the investment in prevention is worth the cost.


Wearing of seatbelts doesn't prevent motor vehicle collisions. Tilting at windmills to no end is a superfluous exercise. That said you are welcome to have at it, if that is your want.



> And for your last line, I'm of the same exact opinion. My wife holds an awesome power to seriously **** me up if it ever enters her mind to do so and I hold the same power over her. It's like skydiving, you hope and pray that your chute is packed properly and will open, otherwise kiss your ass goodbye, pancake.


It's nothing at all like skydiving, and I'm writing as someone who used to do free-fall and static line skydiving (and I've still got my old logbook and parachute license somewhere).

Is this another one of those things where you tell others all about, what you have no experience of?

"Check canopy... End cells open..." In all my time of throwing myself out of aeroplanes I never hoped or prayed that my parachute was packed properly. Of which I always jumped with a reserve as well. Likewise one also learns how to pack their own chute as well. I don't know about you, but I trusted other professionals to do their job properly as they trusted me to do the same. Likewise there were drills that we were trained to apply for when things went wrong.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Not every wayward gets to decide if they want to stay in the home and marriage. Some have spouses who have zero tolerance for cheating, and it's game over for the marriage.
> 
> I am one of those. No way would I stay in a relationship with a cheater.


That does happen.

......but we don’t see that here.

I’ve never once read a thread here where a BS showed up here saying, “I found out my spouse was cheating this weekend so I got a lawyer and filed Monday and the movers are coming on Wednesday when I get the keys to my new place. “

I’m sure it’s happened somewhere at some point but I haven’t actually seen it. 

I talk tough too and said here on this thread that I would pack and go. But it hasn’t actually happened yet so no telling how it will actually go down. 

Most of the cases we have seen here it’s the BS who is reading books, seeing therapists, writing to forums, begging and pleading and negotiating and making concessions where as the WS might make apologies and shed some crocodile tears, they basically get to weigh whether they want to stay in the marriage vs move on with the AP or other potential suitors. 

How many times have we seen the WS voluntarily going to therapy, reading books, making concessions or doing any of the heavy lifting or jumping through hoops like the BS.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Personal said:


> It's nothing at all like skydiving, and I'm writing as someone who used to do free-fall and static line skydiving (and I've still got my old logbook and parachute license somewhere).


How do you undo your jump? 

Look, you've got the burr up your ass again, just wanting to be contrarian. Marriage, you can put in all the effort to keep it working, you spouse holds your marital fate in their hands. The skydiving metaphor presumes that your fate is in the hands of someone who packs your chute. If they don't do their job properly, you're screwed. You want to argue that you pack your own chute, fine. Tell us how you control the fate of your marriage IRRESPECTIVE of what your spouse does. Trusting other professionals to do their job only takes you so far, if they screw-up, you pay the price.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> That does happen.
> 
> ......but we don’t see that here.
> 
> ...


The Flood.
Rookie.
WalterWhite420


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Look, you've got the burr up your ass again, just wanting to be contrarian.


No I just find it amusing that you have come here to tell everyone how infidelity does and doesn't work, when you have no experience of it. Just as you have no experience in skydiving or apparently strapping children into car seats.

Is there anything else that you have no experience of, that you are planning to lecture us on?

Oh and as to my experience of infidelity in a life that has been quite an adventure. I have no qualms in sharing that when I was divorced, I have on occasion also been the other man.




> You want to argue that you pack your own chute, fine. Tell us how you control the fate of your marriage IRRESPECTIVE of what your spouse does.


You don't control it (and that's okay), please do keep up.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Personal said:


> No I just find it amusing that you have come here to tell everyone how infidelity does and doesn't work,


I'm not telling anybody anything like that. That's just you backing yourself into a corner, due to quirks in your personality, and now having to defend yourself by doubling down.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Tell us how you control the fate of your marriage IRRESPECTIVE of what your spouse does.


To expand further, ones life can change at any moment without warning whether you wrap yourself in a blanket of cotton wool or not.

And this isn't theoretical for me, I've been married to someone who developed a mental illness, I've been cheated on sexually by that spouse. I have had an illness that should have killed me and almost did. I have a child with a disability plus a debilitating mental illness. I have a spouse who has survived breast cancer. I have seen a man almost squished flat by a main battle tank. I have nearly been killed along with others, in a way that it seemed as if time slowed down, then dealt with it as it became a multiple critical casualty incident. I have met a terrorist and other bad guys both domestic and foreign. I have worked on one of my soldiers after their heart stopped. I have seen and rendered aid to people with some devastating penetrative wounds. On and on etc, my life has been an adventure.

One day everything can be fine and the next moment it isn't. Life has no guarantees and that's okay because that's how things are.


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