# Appreciation



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I feel like appreciation is the key to a happy marriage. People are willing to go out of their way to do nice things For one another if they are appreciated. I would even go so far and say, people actually like to go out of their way to make their spouse happy IF it's appreciated. The problem is, expectation and lack of appreciation. 

I think this is a common problem but here it goes... I don't FEEL appreciated by my husband for the work I do around the house, especially for him. We both work full time. (He works way more than me). I do all the cleaning, all the laundry, all the cooking. I appreciate him. I show him appreciation. He does not do the same to me. 

Today's situation.... He was working in the morning. Our house is so gross and needed to be cleaned, deep cleaned. I was doing all the laundry, 5 loads of just clothes plus the sheets, pillow cases, bathmats, shower curtains. I cleaned the kitchen. And between folding laundry I was deep cleaning our neglected bathroom. I scrubbed the sh*t out of the bathtub twice, now it is sparkling clean and has never been so white. I was left a sweaty mess from the scrubbing (it's hard!) i texted my husband about what a productive morning I had and everything I did, and was doing, and my plans to try to deep clean, and de clutter the house this weekend. He didn't respond but came home shortly. So when u walk into the house there are a couple bags of garbage from all my cleaning, laundry folded in different piles according to what it is, and a pile of new clean clothes to fold. The washer and dryer are running Bc I'm obviously doing more laundry. I am wearing shorts and a t-shirt, I literally have sweat on my shirt from sweating from scrubbing the shower. There is no mistaking I have been working hard. Anyway, he walks in and doesn't say anything about the obvious scenery. I told him in a proud way look at how white that bathtub is. He goes in, says wow. Then comes back out and gets some food, sits on the couch and puts on the tv and watches soccer. I ask about him day blah blah. He shortly gets a call from the hospital and he needs to go back in. So he kisses me and leaves. I go on and continue cleaning the bathroom. When I come out, I realized he left his food/plate on the coffee table. And as he walked out, he didn't take out any of the garbage that is sitting there and obviously needs to be taken out. (I don't really care about the garbage, but it hurt my feelings that he left the food/plate out for me to obviously clean up)

For me, I don't mind doing all this stuff IF he shows me a little more appreciation and respect for it. But he doesn't. I've talk to him about this and he says... I'm sorry and I appreciate you. We have had this conversation a million times, and the difference between saying u appreciate someone when confronted vs showing someone you appreciate them continuously. Nothing changes. Part of me wants to make him do his own laundry, and give him a honey do list and make him do that stuff. But I am really trying to avoid treating him like a child, I feel we have a parent child relationship already. This lack of respect/appreciation is causing problems for me and making me unhappy and resentful. I know that he is not going to wake up one day and show me appreciation. My goal is that he realizes how important it is to feel appreciated and does it. What can I do to make him appreciate me?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Hi KC,

By now you must be familiar with the love languages. Acts of Service. "I do all the cleaning, all the laundry, all the cooking. I appreciate him. I show him appreciation." What are your H's love languages? I do all those same with my wife. She ONLY cares about Quality Time (and physical touch, but that is a long story). So, in my case while I am doing all those things, I get NEGATIVE points for NOT spending time with my wife in bed watching movies on Netflix.

Let's face it. He does not care about all those chores. Probably would not notice if the tube was scrubbed cleaned or not. It is the way he is wired and cannot change. Just like you cannot change trying to change him. 

"What can I do to make him appreciate me?" My response to that is to give him divorce papers. If that does not make him appreciate you, nothing will.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> But I am really trying to avoid treating him like a child, I feel we have a parent child relationship already.


HI, I know all too well what a workout scrubbing the tub is! You are right. You already have a parent child relationship because you do all of the chores. Stop giving him your creature comforts. What would he do if he were a bachelor? Don't do his laundry for starters. He's an adult he can do his own. I've been in 3 serious relationships in my life and every guy did his own laundry. I didn't set a precedent by doing it. Why the hell should i do it? Doesn't compute. That dish he left on the coffee table? You should've left it there for him to pick up. As for the trash, why didn't you ask him to take it out on the e
Way back to the hospital? I think @turnera has some tips for you. I recall something about her husband's dirty socks lol.

Seriously though. Quit doing so much for him. He's a big boy. 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I think showing Appreciation is HUGE in our marriages.. this is a really good thread to lay this out..

>> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/39565-validating-your-spouse.html

Though I can see where @blueinbr is coming from too... we are more apt to speak or show our appreciation for those things that WE care about the most...my love languages are Time & Touch....so I show more appreciation for those things.

You said:


> *We both work full time*.* (He works way more than me).* I do all the cleaning, all the laundry, all the cooking. I appreciate him. I show him appreciation. He does not do the same to me.


 With his working WAY more than you (how many hours a week?) .. I wouldn't be one to tell you -to stop doing what you are doing... but I surely agree with you... that it'd go a long way -if he could somehow be tuned in to expressing his appreciation more so..

What are His primary Love languages , this may be a way to connect with him, speaking about HIS -while bringing up your own.. you long for more "*Words of affirmation*" ....where he doesn't seem to "get" that this is uplifting, encouraging to others, brightening their day.....you probably give him plenty.. it's a case where he takes it for granted I bet... we generally GIVE what we crave ourselves.. though some are just selfish & suck it all up.. hopefully he's not one of those.. but just missing it, not realizing HOW MUCH this matters to you. 

Here is the online test....







 Love Languages Personal Profile


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you read my laundry story yet? My H was your H (still is for the most part but only because I didn't CONTINUE what I'm about to tell you). I'm the female, it's my job to replace his mother and it's his job to do what's fun for him. 

So my IC told me that I'm about to have a nervous breakdown, I need to get him to take ONE chore off my hands just so I can know he will do it, that he cares. So I ask him, right? He says no! He says he has a weird schedule, never knows when he'll be home, he can't promise to do ANYthing. I was appalled.

So I sit and stew on it a few days. Then I think I'm going to take one chore off my list anyway. What's one chore that will matter the least to ME? Answer: his clothes.

So I just stop doing his clothes. He has a ton. It takes him about a month to run out of clean clothes, and he comes up to me, all angry, what the hell's the matter with you, why aren't my clothes clean?! I just shrugged and said "I asked you to take ONE chore off my shoulders, I would do the rest, and you refused. So I decided to take off the chore that doesn't affect me - that would be your clothes, since I don't wear them." And then I left and went to do something else in the house. 

A few hours later, I heard him fixing something that I'd been asking him to fix for about two years. So I did one load of laundry for him. He noticed, but didn't say anything. Later that day, he fixed something else. So I did another load of laundry.

Unfortunately, I didn't continue to react that way and he went back to his usual ways - and that is MY fault for continuing to meet all his needs whether he meets mine or not.

YOUR job is to stop meeting all his needs if he refuses to meet yours. That's called self respect. And it teaches HIM to respect YOU as a result. 

If you continue doing everything for him regardless, you only have yourself to blame.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

As for him leaving stuff all over the house, I admit I get a little spiteful when it comes to that. He leaves a dirty Qtip somewhere (gross)? I pick it up, yes, because it's disgusting. But I go to his sink and throw it in his sink (which I never touch anymore). He leaves dirty socks in the living room? I pick them up and throw them on the floor in front of his sink so HE has to stand on dirty clothes or else put them where they belong. If he gets a 2-foot stack of dirty clothes in front of his sink cos he's a baby and won't put them in the hamper? Not my problem. If he throws them in the middle of the room? THEN I pick them up and throw them in the trash. There are hangers on the floor in the closet in front of HIS cabinets so that HE has to stand on them to get his next shirt out instead of in the bathroom where he dropped them. 

Get the picture?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

@turnera, one of these days you are going to have a nuclear meltdown with that big baby and I want to hear aaall about it.>


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

God, I hope so. 

I think I am nearing it, though. We are about to have a financial meltdown, I showed him an option, as usual he found a way around it because it would require him sacrificing something he doesn't want to give up, and I am mad as hell; haven't talked to him since Monday. I'm waiting for something to happen in a few days about it (waiting on info); we'll see what happens then. My brother has offered for me to stay with him (because of this money thing), so at least I have a way out now.

ETA: But I AM going through my stuff in the house, getting rid of things so that if I choose to walk away, it will be easier. So I am on a path now.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

God this is depressing.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

This is what you have to look forward to if you don't stop the dysfunction in your marriage NOW. I'm almost 40 years into a marriage in which I've been meeting his needs all the time and never really demanded that he met mine. Either fix it or get out and find someone who wants to be your equal.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

@turnera that's what I'm trying to do. It's scary to think of leaving my husband and finding another the same way.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Katiecrna, how much longer before your husband will have more normal hours? Can you hang in until he's through with his residency? You'll be better able to judge what type of husband he will be under normal living conditions. Easier to train him, too.:grin2:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@katiecrna If you were my wife, *I'd* appreciate you.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Thanks Matt! 
@Blondilocks I partially agree with you. However I just think he loves to work and he will always want to work a ton. I have worked with a couple surgeons like this before. The reality is... He can if he wants to. He can make time for me and appreciate me if he wants to. He makes time for things that are important to him. I am training for a half marathon ok, I've been training for a month or so. He will run a half marathon in one day (13.1 miles), Just randomly. Like every couple weeks or so he will be like ok well I'm going to go run a half... I swear just to be a ****. (This seems like a random story but the point is he will make time to run 13.1 miles in a single day but he's too tired to stay awake and watch a movie with me, or do chores with me). 

I finally put my foot down today. I told him I'm sick of hearing I'm sorry, and if he doesn't change (Bc what I'm asking isn't too much), then I want a divorce Bc there is no point to a marriage like this.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Now I'm thinking about how to plan my escape incase it gets to that. Sadly I have been maxing out my school loans to pay for our "luxurious" lifestyle aka him driving around in new infinities and bmws while I drive a **** old car to save money, and stay home and clean and do his laundry. Wow I sound sad. I am getting one more large sum school loan, I already told him I am opening up my own account and putting the money in there so I can control it.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

turnera said:


> This is what you have to look forward to if you don't stop the dysfunction in your marriage NOW. I'm almost 40 years into a marriage in which I've been meeting his needs all the time and never really demanded that he met mine. Either fix it or get out and find someone who wants to be your equal.


There comes a time in a dysfunctional marriage where you have to get plumb, mad-dog mean (thanks, Josey Wales). You're about 30 years overdue.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

turnera said:


> As for him leaving stuff all over the house, I admit I get a little spiteful when it comes to that. He leaves a dirty Qtip somewhere (gross)? I pick it up, yes, because it's disgusting. But I go to his sink and throw it in his sink (which I never touch anymore). He leaves dirty socks in the living room? I pick them up and throw them on the floor in front of his sink so HE has to stand on dirty clothes or else put them where they belong. If he gets a 2-foot stack of dirty clothes in front of his sink cos he's a baby and won't put them in the hamper? Not my problem. If he throws them in the middle of the room? THEN I pick them up and throw them in the trash. There are hangers on the floor in the closet in front of HIS cabinets so that HE has to stand on them to get his next shirt out instead of in the bathroom where he dropped them.
> 
> Get the picture?


I did NOT get the picture.

I got the Negative......black.. mirror image.



This struck home....not like a lightning bolt...more a whumpa-dump.

What a way to live.....I do some of the things that your husband does. 

But I make up for my messiness. I am a FIX IT ALL husband. I love projects, immerse myself in them. Carpentry [rough and finish], Electrical, Plumbing, Auto Repair, Concrete work, Painting, Welding, Machining. 

The house is neat and clean except for the basement, garage and attic.....no, I cleaned up the attic. I need more space to store my stuff.

Junk mail does both of us in. We are buried in it. She will not allow me to throw it out unless our names are off of it, or we shred it first. I bought a commercial $100 dollar shredder for her.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

katiecrna said:


> @turnera that's what I'm trying to do. It's scary to think of leaving my husband and finding another the same way.


Ok, then I have two jobs for you. Ok, three. First, make an appointment with a qualified therapist. Second, while you're waiting, read the book The Dance Of Anger to learn how to stop being a Giver. Third, attend your first IC session and set up recurring monthly or biweekly appointments for at least the next year. 

If I had done that the first few years of my marriage, my whole life would be different. I didn't go for 15 years and by then, I was too depressed, pathetic, and afraid to make any real changes.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> I did NOT get the picture.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I 100% get this. And I also talked to my husband about this. I told him it's not like he sucks in one area and makes it up in another. He overall sucks in every area except his job. (I did not tell him these works exactly). But it's true, he doesn't do great at appreciating me, or making me a priority, or making me feel loved, or being anything. I have used the excuse of him being busy with work for too long.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> @turnera that's what I'm trying to do. It's scary to think of leaving my husband and finding another the same way.




It's not as scary as you think. We have read all your posts. You are a lot stronger than you think you are.

I get mad when i read posts like yours and see great, high quality women staying with guys far beneath them. Well, not the best wording but i hope you get my point.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

SunCMars said:


> I did NOT get the picture.
> 
> I got the Negative......black.. mirror image.
> 
> ...


Now, see, if my husband did even a tenth of what you do, my house would be spotless. He would have dinner every single night, even when he doesn't show up til midnight. I'd be crazy about having sex with him, despite my issues. I'd dress nice, I'd let him grope me and laugh about it. 

I have holes in my ceiling upstairs that have been there for more than 10 years. He FINALLY nailed up the ceiling this year, but ONLY because his band started practicing up there and HE was embarrassed. Note, he did NOT fix it. The 13 year old house is covered in mold because the power washer broke three years ago and he won't get it fixed and I don't have the money to take it anywhere. There are three projects out back he told me he would do and it's disgusting out there because they've NOT been done for anywhere from 1 year to 4 years. I have to angle to walk past the piles of tile he's got piled out there to put down on the patio. The 3-car garage is filled 10 feet high with his stuff that he refuses to touch and chews me out if I try to. Our hallway was without carpet pad for 3 years after a sink overflowed and he just fixed that this year - again because his band members had to walk on it to get to the bathroom. My edger has been broken for six months. I've asked him to grout the kitchen counters for more than six years and he's promised to do it at least three times. He bought screen to replace the window screens more than 5 years ago, never touched it, so I can't open the windows any more. He now has TWO cars (both BMWs) that are not running; one has been sitting here for 5 years.

I could go on. He KNOWS because I've told him at least ten or fifteen times that my #1 NEED is a house I can be proud of. I NEED it. I have made lists, I've begged, I've threatened to leave, I've negotiated...everything in HIS life is more important than what I need. He's just lucky I've been too chicken (and too broke) to leave.

So, in the meantime, I do what I can to equalize the situation by picking things I won't do for him.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> Katiecrna, how much longer before your husband will have more normal hours? Can you hang in until he's through with his residency? You'll be better able to judge what type of husband he will be under normal living conditions. Easier to train him, too.:grin2:


GAWWWWWD!

I hate it when a women says the TRAIN word....train weird....train ward-en.

Get the whistle and the newspaper. Call him to task...then whack the two legged pooches' nose.

No *dig*nity....*dig* a hole, jump in, bury yourself, Beta Boy.

Bloody hell!

Quick, run in the house and pee on the carpet. Yeahhhhh!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

SunCMars said:


> GAWWWWWD!
> 
> I hate it when a women says the TRAIN word....train weird....train ward-en.
> 
> ...


 @SunCMars They don't realise we only _pretend_ to get trained! 

Shhhh! Don't tell them, OK?


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## Síocháin (Mar 11, 2016)

@turnera, are you sure we're not married to same man. I went outside and walked my fence line. He has tied broken fence poles with string. AYFKM? Had a leak on my roof for 7 years. Ruined my childhood bed. Finally fixed because I was finding mold all over the place. Everything he has done here is half-a**ed.

Yep, I know what you're going through and I'm so sorry. Good for you for having an exit plan.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

turnera said:


> Now, see, if my husband did even a tenth of what you do, my house would be spotless. He would have dinner every single night, even when he doesn't show up til midnight. I'd be crazy about having sex with him, despite my issues. I'd dress nice, I'd let him grope me and laugh about it.
> 
> I have holes in my ceiling upstairs that have been there for more than 10 years. He FINALLY nailed up the ceiling this year, but ONLY because his band started practicing up there and HE was embarrassed. Note, he did NOT fix it. The 13 year old house is covered in mold because the power washer broke three years ago and he won't get it fixed and I don't have the money to take it anywhere. There are three projects out back he told me he would do and it's disgusting out there because they've NOT been done for anywhere from 1 year to 4 years. I have to angle to walk past the piles of tile he's got piled out there to put down on the patio. The 3-car garage is filled 10 feet high with his stuff that he refuses to touch and chews me out if I try to. Our hallway was without carpet pad for 3 years after a sink overflowed and he just fixed that this year - again because his band members had to walk on it to get to the bathroom. My edger has been broken for six months. I've asked him to grout the kitchen counters for more than six years and he's promised to do it at least three times. He bought screen to replace the window screens more than 5 years ago, never touched it, so I can't open the windows any more. He now has TWO cars (both BMWs) that are not running; one has been sitting here for 5 years.
> 
> ...


Just... wow.

Your tolerance has a whole new level of respect from me.

Not sure it's mindful, but it sure is, well, incredible.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh believe me, I know it's completely stupid. The first IC I saw, 15 years into the marriage, talked to me about my childhood. When I finished, she said "So basically, you were trained by your parents and your brother to shut up, never ask for anything, accept bad treatment, and never expect better."

Add to that to deal with Toxic Shame and to fear confrontation beyond all others. It's all I know.

And, as low-self-esteem people do, I chose (or attracted) one User after another, and then married one. Add in HIS dysfunction (alcoholic father, schizophrenic mother), and we were destined to be a mess. And the stronger person won.

I'm trying to fix things, but after nearly 60 years of being the subservient, it's slow, scary, and aggravating to achieve change.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

turnera said:


> So, in the meantime, I do what I can to equalize the situation by picking things I won't do for him.



This here is your second biggest mistake. You should not be doing ANYTHING for him, not just picking.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Goodness, one will not change for others until they humble-down and see themselves as they truly are, then they can say "I now see the person you see and I do not want to be that", and mean it because it is hard work. Therein lies the measure of respect and love (and in that order) because if one respects, and in that respect has love, one would find a way to move mountains... or at least start with socks and dishes and work up to mountains.

Sadly, many take second, third, or tenth place in a selfish queue.

All I know is I respect every one of you in this thread... 
@katiecrna, another "sorry" is easily translated as "so what", and you are right... there is no point to a marriage like that so if you cannot open his mind, you are going to have to force him to weigh the amount of love in his heart.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

blueinbr said:


> This here is your second biggest mistake. You should not be doing ANYTHING for him, not just picking.


You think I don't know that? 

You probably haven't read my posts where I say I was raised to avoid conflict no matter what. I throw up, anticipating conflict. I've been out of work for almost 2 years now and we can't pay bills ($150,000 worth). Just this month, I told my brother the truth and he offered to let me come stay with him; before that, I had no job, no option, no family, no friends, to go to for help. But beyond this was my FEAR of facing my H's antagonism, passive aggressiveness, and stonewalling.

Even today, 5 days after trying to fix our money problems with our financial guy, and him basically betraying me about it (I think he talked to the guy ahead of time to tell him to throw me a bone), I have spent probably 85% of every day thinking about it, yet being terrified to tell him what I thought. That's what 40 years of relationship has reduced me to. I'm a mess. I want to vomit all day long. And nothing happens. All because of fear of conflict.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

turnera said:


> You think I don't know that?
> 
> You probably haven't read my posts where I say I was raised to avoid conflict no matter what. I throw up, anticipating conflict. I've been out of work for almost 2 years now and we can't pay bills ($150,000 worth). Just this month, I told my brother the truth and he offered to let me come stay with him; before that, I had no job, no option, no family, no friends, to go to for help. But beyond this was my FEAR of facing my H's antagonism, passive aggressiveness, and stonewalling.
> 
> Even today, 5 days after trying to fix our money problems with our financial guy, and him basically betraying me about it (I think he talked to the guy ahead of time to tell him to throw me a bone), I have spent probably 85% of every day thinking about it, yet being terrified to tell him what I thought. That's what 40 years of relationship has reduced me to. I'm a mess. I want to vomit all day long. And nothing happens. All because of fear of conflict.


Sorry!

What else can an internet Phantom say? 

You are not alone. Your plight phenomenon gets assuaged away [frequently] by alcohol and drugs....illicit drugs.

The sufferers problems temporarily go away.

Until the high or the numbness or unconsciousness becomes.....eyes open....back to a grey life.

Question:

Some prescribed drugs might help your mindset.

Is this something you have tried or have considered?

Our body is a chemical menagerie. It is common for the body to be out of whack...chemically. 

It happens. There is no shame [today] in addressing this unbalance.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I've been on and off antidepressants several times. The first time, I told H about it and he was 'embarrassed' that I had to take them, and told me to stop - and I did. Fifteen years later, I'm at least at the point where I can say 'so what,' thanks to IC, and keep taking ADs. 

Benefits? I have stopped having panic attacks at being over $150,000 in debt and no job. Mind you, I quit my dream job and I've changed jobs five times in 15 years to earn more money and cover the growing debt while he's changed jobs five times and earned less each time. Until I got laid off 2 years ago and he got laid off a month later. Only HE got an offer from a client to start a business, and he's doing pretty well. Meanwhile, I've been struggling to earn some money. And the first time I dared to call him out on not fixing something around the house he promised to fix, the first thing out of his mouth? "Well, at least *I* am earning money!"

Really?

When my IC told me I needed ADs, she said it's not a personal failure; it's a result of years of pretending to be happy when you're not, using up your body's 'store' of happiness chemicals, until you're finally just out of 'happy,' and you need a pill to kickstart it, to re-prime the pump of happiness. So no issue with it.

At this stage, I really need more therapy but I can't afford it. I went to the doctor this week ($1100/month HMO, the only plan I could afford, being unemployed) and with $15,000 deductible and $65 a visit, I ONLY went because I needed my next three months of ADs prescription, and because I have a hand injury from helping H with his business. Doctor prescribed me a visit to a neurologist to fix my hand numbness problem, but I couldn't even afford the GP visit, let alone the neurologist visit (had to charge it, more debt). And I had to tell them that when they called me the next day to schedule the appointment. So humiliating.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> GAWWWWWD!
> 
> I hate it when a women says the TRAIN word....train weird....train ward-en.
> 
> ...


By this outburst I erased at least 10 Atta-Boys from our female posters.

Women have no idea how this wording and line of thought is *SO Demeaning.*

Hey! I know........the truth hurts the most. 

Men are little boys with bigger and more expensive toys. I have heard it all ad-nauseum.

If men were to say the same words to women [train the women] we would be called misogynists or 8th Century barbarians, Chauvinists, or worse. And rightly so. 

Hello, Archie Bunker.

Turnera's husband does not need to be trained/re-trained. That is not her job.

He needs to be abandoned as a lost cause, a lost sole..as in fish...as in Guppie.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

turnera said:


> You think I don't know that?
> 
> You probably haven't read my posts where I say I was raised to avoid conflict no matter what. I throw up, anticipating conflict. I've been out of work for almost 2 years now and we can't pay bills ($150,000 worth). Just this month, I told my brother the truth and he offered to let me come stay with him; before that, I had no job, no option, no family, no friends, to go to for help. But beyond this was my FEAR of facing my H's antagonism, passive aggressiveness, and stonewalling.
> 
> Even today, 5 days after trying to fix our money problems with our financial guy, and him basically betraying me about it (I think he talked to the guy ahead of time to tell him to throw me a bone), I have spent probably 85% of every day thinking about it, yet being terrified to tell him what I thought. That's what 40 years of relationship has reduced me to. I'm a mess. I want to vomit all day long. And nothing happens. All because of fear of conflict.


T, you should take your brother up on his offer even if it is just for a while. let your H get on with it. It will do you good to be surrounded by people who love you, give you a chance to think about what you want and how you want it, remove yourself from the chaos for a while. You never know what you might come up with, you are obviously a very strong person if you managed to put up with that s888 for so long!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Thank you, aine. I agree, but I am SO scared of the potential conflict I can't even process it. Especially since my H and my B basically hate each other. It's like crossing a HUGE line, you know? 

In the meantime, I'm cleaning out my stuff in the house so I can pick up and leave. Maybe I'll have the guts to tell him that...


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Katie, if your H is still training to be a Dr, that is a very demanding career and I don't think it will get better when he is fully qualified though you will benefit from more money, but maybe less time. You have to figure out now do you want to be the Drs wife who rarely sees him, but the go to person for everything.
Tunera's advice is priceless and you can go one step further, make your life easier, learn from him, take care of your own stuff, let him see you are not his skivvy anymore.
This may be temporary cause when he has more money maybe you can employ a cleaner to help at home? Could you employ a cleaner now? Keep your own money, do not help him financially and use the money to lighten your own load. If he complains tell him, he can sacrifice his high life to help out otherwise STFU.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

turnera said:


> Thank you, aine. I agree, but I am SO scared of the potential conflict I can't even process it. Especially since my H and my B basically hate each other. It's like crossing a HUGE line, you know?
> 
> In the meantime, I'm cleaning out my stuff in the house so I can pick up and leave. Maybe I'll have the guts to tell him that...


At some point, one has to remove the toxic to survive... @katiecrna, there are lessons in this, but ultimately the choice is yours and thus my mantra: There are three solutions to every problem: accept it, change it, or leave it.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

aine said:


> This may be temporary cause when he has more money maybe you can employ a cleaner to help at home? Could you employ a cleaner now? Keep your own money, do not help him financially and use the money to lighten your own load. If he complains tell him, he can sacrifice his high life to help out otherwise STFU.


++++++++1! 
"HE" can spend the money for a cleaner... take it away from his fancy autos.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

My (soon to be divorced) marriage seems very similar to yours OP, at least structurally. He has a high stress job as a restaurant manager in a national chain, lots of pressure and long/irregular hours. We have 2 kids, and I also worked (not as much as him) plus all the cooking, cleaning, child raising, etc. 

He didn't appreciate me at all, and did all the same things as you and turnera describe. Qtips, clothes on the floor, laundry, dishes everywhere, not helping fix anything or with any regular household chores. It wasn't uncommon for me to get out my own tools and use youtube after the children went to be to fix things around the house. He would appropriate funds (on the grounds that he was the bigger earner) and do whatever he wanted, without discussion. Sometimes not paying bills, or racking up debt. I was a big doormat, a lot of the time. 

Finally after much discussion, emailing, talking about our problems (which he ignored, or demeaned me for), I left.
Now, he is desperately trying to get me back and voluntarily doing things that i wanted him to do when we were married (therapy, getting clean and sober, going to the doctor). I guess it took us leaving for him to realize that I was serious, and for him to appreciate me.

Trouble is, i waited until i was all done/completely fed up to leave. no love left and no chance of us ever working out.
Now, i wish i would have left when i still loved him. Maybe we could have worked things out or at least gone to therapy, given it a try.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

sixty-eight said:


> Trouble is, i waited until i was all done/completely fed up to leave. no love left and no chance of us ever working out.
> Now, i wish i would have left when i still loved him. Maybe we could have worked things out or at least gone to therapy, given it a try.


There are so many powerful lessons in this set of statements... the learning and pain just doesn't seem fairly balanced at times even though we know nothing ever goes away until it teaches us what we need to know.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah, you may want to research "walkaway wives," which is what we are describing - the wife puts up with SO MUCH, for years and years and years, instead of standing up for herself and demanding more (since most women aren't raised to be combative and there's still a double standard). And we literally just fall out of love with the person causing us all the pain. So by the time we leave, there is no chance in hell we would ever choose to be with that person again. 

And the man has been oblivious to the whole thing because we continue to meet his needs, so he's a happy camper, right? And I think men are 'trained' to expect a b*tchy wife and to just ignore whatever she gripes about.

And that is why I've been telling you to stop doing things for him. Demand respect. You won't take care of me? Well guess what? I won't take care of you either until you wake up.

You still have time to turn your marriage around, but you MUST change what you're doing.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

turnera said:


> And we literally just fall out of love with the person causing us all the pain. So by the time we leave, there is no chance in hell we would ever choose to be with that person again.
> 
> And the man has been oblivious to the whole thing because we continue to meet his needs, so he's a happy camper, right? And I think men are 'trained' to expect a b*tchy wife and to just ignore whatever she gripes about.
> 
> ...


Yes. so much yes. The only motivator that was strong enough for him to change was for me to leave (i see this now, in hindsight)
I felt like leaving was giving up on us. So I trapped myself in a vicious cycle.
Plus, I was teaching him to disrespect me. No matter what he did, i always caved and stayed, or came right back. So, he came to believe i would never leave no matter what he did and acted accordingly.

That man was SHOCKED to discover that I took off after he assaulted me in the middle of the night. He honestly expected me to still be there, making dinner, just like always. Because that's what i had taught him about myself. He's still shocked 10 months later that i haven't "gotten over it yet".

leaving may not mean he appreciates you and wants you back, but it certainly tells you where you stand with them, priority-wise.


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## phitigirl (Aug 11, 2016)

But how do you just stop taking care of those things? I think the OP is living my life too, other than my husband doesn't work substantially more time than I do. And I still do all the work. I honestly don't think I could stand my house if I stopped taking care of his "Magic Clothes" and picking up after him.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

phitigirl said:


> But how do you just stop taking care of those things? I think the OP is living my life too, other than my husband doesn't work substantially more time than I do. And I still do all the work. I honestly don't think I could stand my house if I stopped taking care of his "Magic Clothes" and picking up after him.


I did it early in our marriage. I got some clothes baskets to throw his clothes in. I just kept filling them up and up and up. When he left stuff, even garbage!, around, I threw it in his closet.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

@NobodySpecial that's a good idea. I can't stand living in a messy house and my husband obviously doesn't care. When we were dating he wouldn't even put pillow cases on his pillows, and never washed his sheets. Barf! He always sent him clothes home so his mom can wash them, and when he got them back he never unpacked them and just took them out of the basket when needed. I will start to put his stuff in his own special bin!


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> @NobodySpecial He always sent him clothes home so his mom can wash them


Here is the crux of your problem, generally speaking.


Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> @NobodySpecial that's a good idea. I can't stand living in a messy house and my husband obviously doesn't care. When we were dating he wouldn't even put pillow cases on his pillows, and never washed his sheets. Barf! He always sent him clothes home so his mom can wash them, and when he got them back he never unpacked them and just took them out of the basket when needed. I will start to put his stuff in his own special bin!


I can NOT understand parents who don't see what a disservice this is. Does he have a sister? Did Mom do her laundry too?

My husband was the same. Mom did EVERYTHING. So he really did not "get it" when I told him I was doing everything. He also was not independently motivated to do it. Why would he? I was already doing it and the only consequence from me was to listen to me get mad every now and then. And then the sex dropped off! Cuz I was resentful. Then he got resentful because the sex dropped off!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

phitigirl said:


> But how do you just stop taking care of those things? I think the OP is living my life too, other than my husband doesn't work substantially more time than I do. And I still do all the work. I honestly don't think I could stand my house if I stopped taking care of his "Magic Clothes" and picking up after him.


If I was starting over, at y'all's age, here's what I'd do. As soon as I realized the pattern, I would turn off the tv or game, face him, and say 'I am NOT your mother and unless you want to pay me to be your servant, I will not be one. You must think that just because I'm a woman, it's my job to pick up after you. Silly boy, no. You can either respect me enough to pick up after yourself - and I will then gladly keep the house clean and dusted, or something will happen to your stuff. If you leave your clothes around and expect me to pick them up for you, I will throw them away; eventually, you will run out of clothes. If you leave dishes for me to pick them up, I will take your credit card in YOUR name and, after I have thrown enough of your dirty dishes away, go spend YOUR money to buy new ones. You wanna pay me extra to be your servant? Go right ahead. Cleaners charge $150/day or more, to clean houses; I'll give you a bargain at $750/week, that's $39,000 a year. I'll be putting that $39,000 in a separate bank about, every year, until I get fed up with raising another child and move out. It's your choice; just let me know.' 

And then I'd walk away and let him think on it. And if nothing changed the next day, boom, there goes his stuff.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

katiecrna said:


> @NobodySpecial that's a good idea. I can't stand living in a messy house and my husband obviously doesn't care. When we were dating he wouldn't even put pillow cases on his pillows, and never washed his sheets. Barf! He always sent him clothes home so his mom can wash them, and when he got them back he never unpacked them and just took them out of the basket when needed. I will start to put his stuff in his own special bin!


I, too, tried having a box by his side of the bed and dumping everything in it. I told him that when it got filled up, it must mean it needed to be thrown away, so I would.

Unfortunately, I was too chicken to do it.

But you aren't! Right?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> @NobodySpecial that's a good idea. I can't stand living in a messy house and my husband obviously doesn't care. When we were dating he wouldn't even put pillow cases on his pillows, and never washed his sheets. Barf! He always sent him clothes home so his mom can wash them, and when he got them back he never unpacked them and just took them out of the basket when needed. I will start to put his stuff in his own special bin!


You might need a special bin the size of a large garbage can... makes the next step easier.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

turnera said:


> I, too, tried having a box by his side of the bed and dumping everything in it. I told him that when it got filled up, it must mean it needed to be thrown away, so I would.
> 
> Unfortunately, I was too chicken to do it.
> 
> But you aren't! Right?


Unfortunately by saying the things you have said and not following through you have basically trained him to think he can do any damned thing. But you know that, I think.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> @NobodySpecial that's a good idea. I can't stand living in a messy house and my husband obviously doesn't care. When we were dating he wouldn't even put pillow cases on his pillows, and never washed his sheets. Barf! He always sent him clothes home so his mom can wash them, and when he got them back he never unpacked them and just took them out of the basket when needed. I will start to put his stuff in his own special bin!


Did not all this red flag you? Isn't that the whole point of dating? Or were you just caught up on the future doctor thing.

You have now taken over the role of his mom. He is not going to change. Why would he? He has you and if you divorce him he will just find another to fill that role. He has the money (future) and status to get that. 

BTW, I hope his lack of cleanliness and messiness does not carry over to his surgeries. I would prefer my surgeon to be OCD, organized, obsessed with cleanliness.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You're about to live my life -- or what my life used to be. 

For many decades, my ex-husband focused only on his very demanding career while I dealt with everything else in our lives (and worked full-time). Then serious heart issues (his) entered the picture and I stepped up the pace even more. Exhausting doesn't begin to cover what my life was like but what made me divorce him was cheating and not the rest of it. However, I should have divorced him within the first few years when it became obvious how my life was going to play out -- and before we had a child to consider. But I didn't believe in divorce then. Now I do. 

There are people who will change and there are people who will not. The trick is figuring out early on which one you're dealing with. I guessed wrong and lost decades I obviously can't get back. 

Love alone can't make a marriage. I thought it could.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

turnera said:


> I, too, tried having a box by his side of the bed and dumping everything in it. I told him that when it got filled up, it must mean it needed to be thrown away, so I would.
> 
> Unfortunately, I was too chicken to do it.
> 
> But you aren't! Right?


I couldn't throw things away either. I tried putting his dirty things in laundry baskets and stacking them up on his side of the room. You could do this with boxes too. Close the flaps and just stack a new box on top. I would also take any messes he made around the house and just add them to the pile on his side of the room (paperwork, shoes/laundry/ hobby bits and pieces). But ultimately, the one thing that gave me peace was simply to move out of our room and close the bedroom door on his mess. 

now that i moved out, my room is always clean and my sheets always smell so fresh and nice  (he used to come home from work and use my pillow for a nap. my side of the bed would then smell like restaurant grease, pot, and cigarette smoke.  no thanks)


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

sixty-eight said:


> I couldn't throw things away either.


I INTENTIONALLY didn't. I stuffed the bins in his closet. I wanted him to SEE the stuff. I was not just trying to avoid cleaning his stuff. I was setting one last ditch effort at getting him to see before I kicked him to the curb.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sixty-eight said:


> I couldn't throw things away either. I tried putting his dirty things in laundry baskets and stacking them up on his side of the room. You could do this with boxes too. Close the flaps and just stack a new box on top. I would also take any messes he made around the house and just add them to the pile on his side of the room (paperwork, shoes/laundry/ hobby bits and pieces). But ultimately, the one thing that gave me peace was simply to move out of our room and close the bedroom door on his mess.
> 
> now that i moved out, my room is always clean and my sheets always smell so fresh and nice  (he used to come home from work and use my pillow for a nap. my side of the bed would then smell like restaurant grease, pot, and cigarette smoke.  no thanks)


My H is also a hoarder. Won't let go of ANYthing. His stuff fills a 3-car garage, a 3-shelf kitchen cabinet, two offices, his bed table, 3 drawers of his dresser, under his bed table, under his dresser, two shelves under the tv... He used to go through the trash can to make sure I wasn't throwing anything of his away. 

I've been thinking of moving to a different room. We have an economic issue going on right now, and it's in his court, and I'm waiting to see what he does about it before I make any decisions.

And I also have 40 years of MY stuff I want to go through and get rid of so if I do decide to leave, it will be easier, so I've been working on that (while also spending all my time applying for jobs). And I also know if I divorce him, he will turn to our daughter and try to pressure her to take care of him, and I have to figure a way to abort that. But that sounds like heaven.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> I INTENTIONALLY didn't. I stuffed the bins in his closet. I wanted him to SEE the stuff. I was not just trying to avoid cleaning his stuff. I was setting one last ditch effort at getting him to see before I kicked him to the curb.


yes, this too. I felt like, if i threw it away he would:
a) simply buy himself new stuff with money we didn't have
b)view it as a victory:I threw it away, but i still cleaned it up then, didn't I?

He might b!tch and moan, but he would enjoy shopping to replace (and then some) everything I chucked.

plus, i was raised in a family that doesn't waste, and we didn't have a lot. Hard to shake that as an adult. I would have donated it instead : )


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

turnera said:


> My H is also a hoarder. Won't let go of ANYthing. His stuff fills a 3-car garage, a 3-shelf kitchen cabinet, two offices, his bed table, 3 drawers of his dresser, under his bed table, under his dresser, two shelves under the tv... He used to go through the trash can to make sure I wasn't throwing anything of his away.
> 
> I've been thinking of moving to a different room. We have an economic issue going on right now, and it's in his court, and I'm waiting to see what he does about it before I make any decisions.
> 
> And I also have 40 years of MY stuff I want to go through and get rid of so if I do decide to leave, it will be easier, so I've been working on that (while also spending all my time applying for jobs). And I also know if I divorce him, he will turn to our daughter and try to pressure her to take care of him, and I have to figure a way to abort that. But that sounds like heaven.


I liked having my own room before i moved out. It gave me time to sift through our stuff, sort out splitting up the bedroom furniture, donate/sell what neither of us wanted. And I started packing, putting everything in plastic tubs and/or bubble wrapping and taping.

When i left suddenly and had to come back to get things on a time crunch, it made things a lot easier.


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