# 53 yr old female, 30 years of marriage, seeking divorce



## Sunshine66 (Nov 4, 2020)

This is hard to post, but I am not sure where to go to deal with my emotions. I asked my husband in mid September for a divorce after our last child moved into his own place. My marriage was not horrible but it also was not great, nor is he a bad person, and I would like to think I am not either. I have wanted out of this marriage and been unhappy for a long time. It has been a thought in my mind for a good 15 years. Because there was no physical abuse and our children were small I was committed to staying. In my mind I consoled myself with the fact that it was my choice to stay or leave. The fractures in our marriage were over years. His anxiety, need to control, verbal cruelty and a myriad of other personality traits made daily life difficult. We had ups and downs over the years but in order to keep peace in the house and particularly in front of the children I pretty much fell in line and did what I needed to do. We both worked hard and built a great material life for our family. As the years passed I moved out of the bedroom (10 years now) but we still had sex as he requested. Our sex life was never satisfying to me but frankly that was not as important as if we had been friends, if I could have been me. I could list dozens of examples of the control and manipulation but at this point it is mute. After my son left I just felt compelled to tell him I wanted a divorce. We have now had multiple rounds of him begging for a second chance and stating things regarding how this will effect our children, our parents, our siblings our friends and how devastated they all will be. Again, not the point. My seeking a divorce was to have peace and happiness and a simple life. I dread the thought of his retirement one day, and doing the things he like to do, which I don't necessarily, partly because he isn't exactly fun and mostly because I do not enjoy his company. Despite knowing him since I was 15 (married at 23), we are awkward with each other. 

As this process has gone along slowly, as he has asked for time to adjust to the situation which I have respected. I am finding each of our communications regarding the process so painful it takes my breath away. While I could have dealt with his anger, his sadness is overwhelming. As I said, he is a hard worker, we are financially well off, and he is for the most part a decent man. I have no physical attraction for him at all, I haven't for a long time. I don't want or seek emotional intimacy because I cannot get past the way he has treated me for years. 

I leave each weekend on Friday and come back Sunday simply to get him accustomed to my absence. He has begged me to stay and all I feel like doing is run away. I am now starting to feel stuck and unsure about moving forward and beginning to think he is right about being older and alone. I guess what I am looking for are others who are the initiator of their divorce or separation and how they feel about it. I know there are many reasons why people seek divorce and the only way I can describe mine is because I want my future to be peaceful. I know he would try to change to give me my space and to be kind but it wouldn't be him and eventually he would resent it if it would even be sustainable. I believe we can remain friends and that in the long run he will be happier. He will find someone who wants to do all the things he likes.

Is anyone going through anything similar? Are there people who have chosen to stay? How to I proceed without falling apart?


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## Nailhead (Sep 21, 2020)

I'm not going through similar but have thought about a situation like this. My W of 27 years has always said I would leave the marriage once our kids are out of the house. I have no desire to do that at all.

If I may ask, over the years did you talk with your H about his controlling issues and other nonsense? If so, did your H respond at all?

You appear very detached from your H. Once a woman detaches getting back that attachment is very hard if not impossible. The question is, why not 10 years ago did you not leave?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Sorry your here, things can get better, whether a D or an improvement in relations.

It certainly sounds like your ready to go, and have been planning for a while. 

Good, but you must know if:
1. You've been planning this for years.
2. You didn't tell, for years your H the extent of your desire to D and years have passed since you've known you'd eventually leave him.
3. He's been a good H and father, like you say, and done his part in providing family income and stability. 

That, you're the one that has acted horribly, depriving him of years to find a better M where could've found a happy M and someone to share his retirement years that he's looking forward to.

You've selfishly made his golden years to have this struggle in his life where when both were younger could've already moved past a D and he could be having a peaceful older instead of a time sucking divorce activity at this point.

There will be support for you here, and should be, but as all know there are two sides to every story.

Why didn't you tell him early on, if you love him like you say?


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

My marriage and age is a decade before yours (20-ish and 40s respectively) but from my perspective your divorce is a decade and a half late. When you moved out of the bedroom, you should have moved out of the house for both of you.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

During your marriage did you make your feelings very clearly known to your husband (including the fact that you would probably leave him if things didn't get better)? Or is he blindsided by this?

Also is there someone else that does meet your needs?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

OP,

Pls share as you feel comfortable, and note the comments bearing in mind all want what's best for you and hubby, no fuss no muss but there will be some hard truths posted too.

Don't be discouraged, take what helps, leave the rest but know all comments come from experience and big picture concepts.

This isn't a place where all will automatically agree with you but all comments may be good food for thought. 

Ragnar


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Full disclosure, my wife decided after we had been together for 16 years that the relationship was over. She let me know the fact at year 21 after she'd spent several years doing the preparations for being single (going back to school, paying off debts, secretly buying furniture for her apartment, searching for said apartment, etc). I was operating under false pretenses (she's just stressed out right now because of X, she's mad right now because I did/didn't do Y, if I do "better" the relationship will be like when she actually cared, etc) and so I wasted a lot of effort and all of those years of my life. We both did.

Breakups in general suck. You should be gentle with him because you went through the hard part (grieving the end of the marriage) while he was still there and without also dealing with the logistical process of separation at the same time. That doesn't mean that you should string it out indefinitely or go through a false reconciliation out of pity. The nicest thing you could do right now is go forward with the process without giving false hopes.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

OP,

In your post I read you leave every Friday returning on Monday, to get him used to you being gone. You say it like it's because you're a kind person and it's for him.

You have to at some level know that's untrue and you're weaning yourself from the comfortable environment. I would bet it's more comfortable for you, not him, to be staying there during the week.

Are you financially using him now?

Don't think it's too far a stretch for H to soon wake up and tell you one morning to get gone for good.

If he hasn't yet he's foolish. He should be cutting off all financial and emotional support for you.

Which is really just accomplishing your wants, right?

The best thing for you and he is for you to immediately move out and bear your own responsibilities.

Neither party can start healing until the knife is finished cutting.

This may be your best action. Let the healings begin.

You've grieved the loss of the M 15 years ago. Dear Lord, let H start his grieving, thus the start of healing.

H won't want to be friends afterwards, you know that right?


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Giiiiirrrrllllllll ........ you lived your plan and now is the time. Dump the bag of coal and find a man to light up that smile. Find the one that makes you feel safe and wanted ...... it’s not him.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

@Sunshine66, in reading your situation, I can see myself in both your position but I can also kinda of see myself in your H’s position and can’t help but wonder if my wife feels about me and our marriage the way you feel about him and your marriage. 

I don’t really want a divorce but at the same time, I don’t want to keep going through this either. 

If my wife were to feel about me and our marriage the way do, I would want to either work on fixing it or work on moving on. Get busy resurrecting the marriage or get busy ending it. 

I suspect my wife feels much as you do, but if I knew as fact she did, I would probably offer professional counseling and working to fix it - but I would probably be pretty agreeable to a fair and amicable divorce as well. 

I agree with above posters. You are many years ahead of him in this separation don’t expect him to catch up and be where you are in a day.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mr.Married said:


> Giiiiirrrrllllllll ........ you lived your plan and now is the time. Dump the bag of coal and find a man to light up that smile. Find the one that makes you feel safe and wanted ...... it’s not him.


Really?

Shoot, are you telling her to hit the circuit?
Rack up some real lovin', line'em up?


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Really?
> 
> Shoot, are you telling her to hit the circuit?
> Rack up some real lovin', line'em up?


What else is she suppose to do? Stay with a man out of pitty? 

I’m not saying she did the right thing by staying quit and “keeping on” for so many years. It sucks that her husband is blindsided. But here she is... he can still move on and find happiness and they can be friends.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I really don't understand this idea that her hb is somehow being blindsided.

Does it really not occur to you guys that if your wife moves out of the bedroom and throws sex at you once in a while if you ask that your marriage is pretty much over?

This is a genuine question....i truly don't understand. 

If this guy truly had no idea he's really self absorbed. Maybe he didn't really think she'd go anywhere but he had to know the marriage was in trouble. Geez...if my bf stopped sleeping with me I'd know we were going downhill.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> I really don't understand this idea that her hb is somehow being blindsided.
> 
> Does it really not occur to you guys that if your wife moves out of the bedroom and throws sex at you once in a while if you ask that your marriage is pretty much over?
> 
> ...


I’ve been blindsided in the past. And I think although the actions were there, he kept verbally telling me everything is fine, I love you so much, blah blah blah. And I choose to believe his words when in reality he just didn’t want to deal with conflict so he “kept the peace”.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Girl_power said:


> I’ve been blindsided in the past. And I think although the actions were there, he kept verbally telling me everything is fine, I love you so much, blah blah blah. And I choose to believe his words when in reality he just didn’t want to deal with conflict so he “kept the peace”.


I don't get the impression she told him everything was fine.

I see someone who thought he could control everything and everyone around him and is shocked that it stopped working.

Maybe she will come back and clarify what she communicated over the years.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

How much time have you spent on working on the marriage?. How many times over the years did you sit down honestly and tell him the extent of your unhappiness and that you were wanting to end the marriage at some point? Did you have sessions of marriage counselling? 
I clearly remember a man at the divorce recovery workshop I went on many years ago whose wife had just up and left after many many years of marriage. He thought they were happy. She had said nothing to him about her unhappiness or her intentions. I thought that was pretty cruel to be honest. He was completely and utterly devastated. 

One one point I agree with him that this will devastate the whole family, especially the children even if they are young adults.


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## gold5932 (Jun 10, 2020)

I am 62. I told my ex to get out and he left to another state. It was really hard in the beginning but the decrease in stress was worth it. Loneliness is hard but you get thru it. The families weren't really surprised but my attitude is nobody knows what goes on in another's house. I was generous with the money because I earn more than he does and i wanted him gone. My only regret is that I didn't do it sooner in life. We still talk every once in a while but I never have to see him again. You just have to come to terms and take the plunge. Make sure your financials are all set because no matter what, this will come up. Once you leave for good, do not go back. Do not have sex with him, do not go to dinner with him, nothing. This will make it way harder. I didn't talk to my ex at all for 5 months. Good luck.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't get the impression she told him everything was fine.
> 
> I see someone who thought he could control everything and everyone around him and is shocked that it stopped working.
> 
> Maybe she will come back and clarify what she communicated over the years.


I’m just saying that we don’t really know. He may or may not have been blindsided. No one knows how he feels and the ins and outs of their relationship. I’m just saying your not an idiot If you thought your marriage was fine when it wasn’t.


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## timcarp1964 (Mar 26, 2019)

You went above and beyond. I am a little older with 1 more year of marriage. Very similar circumstances. I moved out 2 months ago, divorce is proceeding. If he was blindsided, he was well just blind. My wife knew it was coming, but I had talked about divorce 18 months before. Figure out what your part in all of it was. Takes two to tango right? Learn from it and go into the next relationship more mature and better prepared. 
Good luck to you!


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Divorce him. You were wrong to have stayed and not loved him.
He’s a hard worker and decent person.

Do you feel you’d be content with someone else?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Hiner112 said:


> My marriage and age is a decade before yours (20-ish and 40s respectively) but from my perspective your divorce is a decade and a half late. When you moved out of the bedroom, you should have moved out of the house for both of you.


But not for her sake. For his. This is terribly unfair to spring upon someone as they've become older and thinking about what remains of their life/lives. Not that there's anything to be done with it now; she's been gone, as you say, for a long time. 

This stuff just shouldn't come from nowhere. People should have a clue. Be able to plan, not just react to their world turning upside down without knowing the ending had already been decided by their spouse long long ago.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Okay, so you stayed for the sake of the children. You tolerated his behavior. Now that you've told him you're leaving, he's promising to change. If I had a dollar for every single time I've read this in my almost ten years on TAM, I'd have a nice nest egg.

You no longer love him. You haven't loved him for years. I'm sure he realized you were not in love with him. But he figured you'd stick it out and maintain the status quo. When a woman is done, she is DONE. He'll adjust. Go out and lead the life you wish to lead.

I left my husband when I realized I could no longer tolerate spending time trapped with him in our house. He had just lost his second job in four years due to his drinking. I left, never looked back, and never second-guessed my decision. The day I moved out, I suppose he was dealing with some sort of emotional upheaval because he was drop dead drunk. That's how he "handled" his stress. And when I saw him blindly staggering around the house - the movers were shocked by what they saw - I realized I had made the right decision. Talk about a sense of relief!


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Sunshine66 said:


> How to I proceed without falling apart?


Pull the bandaid off quickly.


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## Sunshine66 (Nov 4, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Sorry your here, things can get better, whether a D or an improvement in relations.
> 
> It certainly sounds like your ready to go, and have been planning for a while.
> 
> ...





Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> OP,
> 
> Pls share as you feel comfortable, and note the comments bearing in mind all want what's best for you and hubby, no fuss no muss but there will be some hard truths posted too.
> 
> ...


I understand your point of view completely. My priority was to raise my children in a home where there wasn't constant fighting. He has never been the type to back down, his personality is very strong and I am non confrontational, I hate fighting. I would not say he was blindsided. I indicated my thoughts and feelings and then he did whatever he wanted. Did I indicate I wanted a divorce? I indicated that I wasn't happy along the way. I think at no time did I indicate that was falling out of love. I want what is best for him also. I love him but no longer am physically attracted, his anxious personality makes him stressful to be around. I hate the thought of breaking up our family and hurting my children even though they are now adults. I feel guilt for the pain I am causing him for sure and yet can find no way to change my feelings. My reasoning for not leaving earlier were truly for the reason I did not want a step family.


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## Sunshine66 (Nov 4, 2020)

Nailhead said:


> I'm not going through similar but have thought about a situation like this. My W of 27 years has always said I would leave the marriage once our kids are out of the house. I have no desire to do that at all.
> 
> If I may ask, over the years did you talk with your H about his controlling issues and other nonsense? If so, did your H respond at all?
> 
> You appear very detached from your H. Once a woman detaches getting back that attachment is very hard if not impossible. The question is, why not 10 years ago did you not leave?


I did tell him over the years as best I could when things bothered me. It would improve for a short while and go right back to normal. I am detached, I have been for years. I have never found him to be a source of caring and partnership. I didn't leave 10 years ago because of the children.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Prodigal said:


> Okay, so you stayed for the sake of the children. You tolerated his behavior. Now that you've told him you're leaving, he's promising to change. If I had a dollar for every single time I've read this in my almost ten years on TAM, I'd have a nice nest egg.
> 
> You no longer love him. You haven't loved him for years. I'm sure he realized you were not in love with him. But he figured you'd stick it out and maintain the status quo. When a woman is done, she is DONE. He'll adjust. Go out and lead the life you wish to lead.
> 
> I left my husband when I realized I could no longer tolerate spending time trapped with him in our house. He had just lost his second job in four years due to his drinking. I left, never looked back, and never second-guessed my decision. The day I moved out, I suppose he was dealing with some sort of emotional upheaval because he was drop dead drunk. That's how he "handled" his stress. And when I saw him blindly staggering around the house - the movers were shocked by what they saw - I realized I had made the right decision. Talk about a sense of relief!


She hasn't described anything nearly as awful as what you went through. Your husband had left you for the bottle, and you had no chance of competing with that. Alcoholism isn't something a spouse can fix for their partner. I would put alcoholism under the category of an abusive relationship. It will inevitably drag both partners down the drain together.

If a woman has tried and gotten nowhere, then sure, what's done is done. But sometimes one hasn't really tried, but rather just accepted without raising the issue about the problems. Men and women.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Casual Observer said:


> She hasn't described anything nearly as awful as what you went through.


To be perfectly honest, there are probably very few folks on TAM who have been through what I have. Still, OP tolerated abuse from her husband for years. She's done. Doesn't matter how severe the problems she's encountered may seem to me or you. Done is done.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Prodigal said:


> To be perfectly honest, there are probably very few folks on TAM who have been through what I have. Still, OP tolerated abuse from her husband for years. She's done. Doesn't matter how severe the problems she's encountered may seem to me or you. Done is done.


I feel very badly for what you went through, and absolutely believe that it's an unfortunate side of humanity that very few will ever see. But the done-is-done thing. Is that just a woman's thing? There is no room in a woman's mind to ponder something different, to come around after really thinking something through and recognizing that maybe he is genuine, he wants to change, and it would be nice growing old together with a good friend at least?

I think I'm seeing where age could be a difference, and as one approaches retirement (which is apparently the case here), and her fear of being around this guy even more... that's something that could be flipped around a bit, an opportunity for things-different. I've certainly changed my approach dramatically these past 15 years, after the first 25 were pretty awful in terms of rejection from my wife. I decided I was going to change and be the better person, arrange vacations entirely built around her desires, and try to bring her back from the dead.

It didn't work, but it wasn't wrong for me to try. In OP's case, her husband might be willing to change as I did (and it really was a pretty big change). And if he did, maybe retirement could offer something unexpected for her, something pleasant.

It's certainly a conversation worth having, as there's really not a downside. He may see opportunities he was simply blind to previously. Maybe.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Yes, it’s a woman thing. She decided years ago this guy was only good enough to be a provider and unworthy of her love.
There is zero chance she could change her mind even if she sincerely tried. Once a woman flips the switch, the old circuit vaporizes.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Evinrude58 said:


> She decided years ago this guy was only good enough to be a provider and unworthy of her love.


Guess I missed that part. OP said her husband was abusive for years. For that reason, I imagine he could be considered "unworthy" of her love.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> I’ve been blindsided in the past. And I think although the actions were there, he kept verbally telling me everything is fine, I love you so much, blah blah blah. And I choose to believe his words when in reality he just didn’t want to deal with conflict so he “kept the peace”.


So it was, he kept the peace and you, the once dear piece.

As long as he had both, life was 'seen' in that good light, though his spite remained, well hidden.

His carefully chosen words spoke your love language, ah, but his feet tip-toed, slowly otherwise, motioned. 

His soft skin avoided the barbs of any harsh words, by carefully hiding his intentions.

All this, while his feet calmly plotted a course to the door, that headed out, no re-entry, none clearly sought.


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## hairyhead (Oct 30, 2015)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Sorry your here, things can get better, whether a D or an improvement in relations.
> 
> It certainly sounds like your ready to go, and have been planning for a while.
> 
> ...


I agree totally with this.

I respect the OPs entitlement to separate and move on but to have planned it for so long is wrong in so many ways.

Sent from my CPH1979 using Tapatalk


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

This end, her end, is that end that will be felt painful, with her future years ringing silent.
OP will have only her own thoughts to keep her company.

She will meet that cold silence, with no stirring conversation around to keep her mind spinning, and alive.

May no one face the end years...... alone.

.................................................................

I chewed the end of this post, off; so sad a taste, it had.
Bad taste on my part, also, of that, I am sure.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

hairyhead said:


> I agree totally with this.
> 
> I respect the OPs entitlement to separate and move on but to have planned it for so long is wrong in so many ways.
> 
> Sent from my CPH1979 using Tapatalk


I agree.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

hairyhead said:


> I agree totally with this.
> 
> I respect the OPs entitlement to separate and move on but to have planned it for so long is wrong in so many ways.
> 
> Sent from my CPH1979 using Tapatalk


I agree. My husbands ex was in the planning stage for a while. Getting a full time job for the first time, saving up in a seperate account etc. He meanwhille was trying to work on the marriage, going to counselling at her request, praying and even fasting one day a week for the marriage, not aware that she was already planning to divorce him. I think thats disgusting. If you are that unhappy, tell the spouse, warn them that you arent going to stay in the marriage so that they too can plan and prepare mentally and financially for it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Prodigal said:


> Guess I missed that part. OP said her husband was abusive for years. For that reason, I imagine he could be considered "unworthy" of her love.


If he was abusive, why would anyone even want to keep their children around him in that situation? Surely children should be protected from abuse?


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## Sunshine66 (Nov 4, 2020)

manfromlamancha said:


> During your marriage did you make your feelings very clearly known to your husband (including the fact that you would probably leave him if things didn't get better)? Or is he blindsided by this?
> 
> Also is there someone else that does meet your needs?


I did in the beginning and then after a while I realized it didn't matter. I never threatened divorce. He did over the years a few times to threaten me. We haven't slept in the same bed for ten years, most of my responses are short to ensure I don't upset him. I do think his belief that I would never ask for a divorce empowered him to treat me as he did.

Right now I want peace and no there is no one else. I have very strong friendships with some wonderful women who have been my lifeline.


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## Sunshine66 (Nov 4, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> But not for her sake. For his. This is terribly unfair to spring upon someone as they've become older and thinking about what remains of their life/lives. Not that there's anything to be done with it now; she's been gone, as you say, for a long time.
> 
> This stuff just shouldn't come from nowhere. People should have a clue. Be able to plan, not just react to their world turning upside down without knowing the ending had already been decided by their spouse long long ago.


If we are living in the same house and are approximately the same age how does everyone think this is coming from nowhere? I am confused. If you are the person constantly anxious, constantly acquiescing and doing what you are basically told and doing whatever you can for years, decades I am not sure how anyone can consider this blindsiding? I have given up my life also. I valued having my children grow up in a two parent home not having a litany on women or men enter their parents lives.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> What else is she suppose to do? Stay with a man out of pitty?
> 
> I’m not saying she did the right thing by staying quit and “keeping on” for so many years. It sucks that her husband is blindsided. But here she is... he can still move on and find happiness and they can be friends.


I agree with you

All but the two staying friends afterwards. 

If they do, it will be because the H doesn't know any better yet. But he'll wise up.


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## Sunshine66 (Nov 4, 2020)

Nailhead said:


> I'm not going through similar but have thought about a situation like this. My W of 27 years has always said I would leave the marriage once our kids are out of the house. I have no desire to do that at all.
> 
> If I may ask, over the years did you talk with your H about his controlling issues and other nonsense? If so, did your H respond at all?
> 
> You appear very detached from your H. Once a woman detaches getting back that attachment is very hard if not impossible. The question is, why not 10 years ago did you not leave?


I tried to work with him. Sometimes he would try to adjust but it would be for short periods and then his personality would simply shift back. It ebbed and flowed in intensity. I had to detach and become emotionless about most things because I had little control. I did not leave because of the children. I wanted them to have a two parent household. As a parent he isn't very involved but at a minimum was there. We didn't have to work out custody issues and the children had a more stable life.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't get the impression she told him everything was fine.
> 
> I see someone who thought he could control everything and everyone around him and is shocked that it stopped working.
> 
> Maybe she will come back and clarify what she communicated over the years.


I don't get the impression OP told her H she was going to leave him in x years.


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## Sunshine66 (Nov 4, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> OP,
> 
> In your post I read you leave every Friday returning on Monday, to get him used to you being gone. You say it like it's because you're a kind person and it's for him.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree that moving out would be the best thing to do. I agree it would make the cut clean and have indicated I would do so. He has asked me to stay and take this process slowly. At this point I will do what he wants through the holidays. I find that some of these responses seem to be from the perspective of a person who is the one who has left. In a post it can't all be explained easily. I don't want to paint him as a bad person because he isn't but he has been a difficult person to get along with. He has very few friends and they are more friendly acquaintances. I left my career over 15 years ago to move overseas and support his career. When we returned I was told not to go back to work and to enter a different profession I did not like and that made my life extremely tough. I tended to his father when his was dying. I was an active participant in the marriage for a long time. He has had indiscretions. It will be his call whether or not we remain friends. I have seen it happen, whether we can or not is up to him.


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## Sunshine66 (Nov 4, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I don't get the impression OP told her H she was going to leave him in x years.


I didn't tell him everything was fine. I can't see how anyone meaning my husband could think our relationship was fine. He would push and push and push until he got his way. We aren't talking about big life decisions we are talking about everything. Everything is a big deal to him. We share similar value, work ethics, etc. I supported him in everything he did. Much of our relationship was a one way street in terms of emotional support. The only way controversy was ever resolved was by my apologizing and doing it the way he wished. The tension was always there and I walked around on eggshells, learning to keep responses short to ensure I used the right words.


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## Sunshine66 (Nov 4, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> @Sunshine66, in reading your situation, I can see myself in both your position but I can also kinda of see myself in your H’s position and can’t help but wonder if my wife feels about me and our marriage the way you feel about him and your marriage.
> 
> I don’t really want a divorce but at the same time, I don’t want to keep going through this either.
> 
> ...


I think the biggest question for me since the thought entered my mind years ago was if I could get my feelings back. After a disagreement several years ago he said we should get divorced. I agreed. He then retracted and said I don't want a divorce. After that one time he never mentioned it again because he knew I would. This marriage hasn't been good. His method of working on it included me simply always agreeing and doing as told, back to square one. I understand we were both young when we met but I grew into a woman who had likes and dislikes and opinions, if they aligned with his great if not he would ensure they did. When I suggested counseling years ago he had no interest, a few years ago he suggested it but at that point my feelings were gone. After 30 years with words, that began on our honeymoon, I am emotionally spent.


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## Sunshine66 (Nov 4, 2020)

Evinrude58 said:


> Yes, it’s a woman thing. She decided years ago this guy was only good enough to be a provider and unworthy of her love.
> There is zero chance she could change her mind even if she sincerely tried. Once a woman flips the switch, the old circuit vaporizes.


I am going to take exception with the assumption is I stayed with him for money. I have worked throughout the entire marriage. If he was a physical abuser or alcoholic I would have left. I didn't deem him unworthy of my love, he threw my love away and treated kindness as a weakness. I was not a typical wife, no honey-do list (I did it), no questions, he went out when he wanted to , I never went out or had babysitters I stayed worked and stayed home with the children. I supported him in everyway. All I needed was not the constant tension and fights over nothing and everything. My point being I don't believe I could start new or simply forget. I don't want everything my way I just want a fair discussion.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Sunshine66 said:


> I didn't tell him everything was fine. I can't see how anyone meaning my husband could think our relationship was fine. He would push and push and push until he got his way. We aren't talking about big life decisions we are talking about everything. Everything is a big deal to him. We share similar value, work ethics, etc. I supported him in everything he did. Much of our relationship was a one way street in terms of emotional support. The only way controversy was ever resolved was by my apologizing and doing it the way he wished. The tension was always there and I walked around on eggshells, learning to keep responses short to ensure I used the right words.


Thanks for sharing more information.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

So...you've sacrificed the last 15 years of your life staying in a loveless marriage and you're actually wondering if you should do *another* 15 or 20 years?

*Seriously???*


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Look when you are done your done, the shame of it is you were done 15 years ago. You should have told him. Did you ever have any intentions of trying to fix your marriage? If you had maybe if you told him he could have used those 15 years to change, but if you didn't tell him you never gave him a chance. If you didn't tell him then you shouldn't leave with your head held high in my mind. You have a responsibility to your spouse to let them know what you are thinking when it comes to the future of your lives together.

If you didn't tell him then you essentially used him for financial support. Yes you raised his kids but he also raised yours, that seems like a wash. He was operating under good faith the whole time, you were not.

Which leads to my next question when you say you want to separate does that mean fully separate right? Meaning financially as well right? Of course split assets 50-50 but do you expect him to pay alimony and continue to financially support you for the rest of your adult life? If you do in my mind that is VERY WRONG and just continues the pattern using him for financial support like some sort of mule or something. It's quite clear you don't love and want nothing to do with this guy. That should mean in all ways. You can't be quite happy to take the man's sweat and equity and yet deny him companionship and in the process hurt his future prospects. If he meets someone else she should be entitled to that. This is assuming you are a healthy adult capable of supporting yourself. If so you need to do that like everyone other single person just as if you were never married. 

Now all of that is conjecture on my part. I think you should leave him sooner rather then later, drawing it out is only going to make it worse. Staying with him because of guilt really is no fair to anyone.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Sp your husband is a cheater as well?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Sorry your here, things can get better, whether a D or an improvement in relations.
> 
> It certainly sounds like your ready to go, and have been planning for a while.
> 
> ...


did you miss the part on verbal abuse and controlling issues?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I didn't, thanks. I thanked OP for sharing more.

That said there may be a case, from the info, that H isn't a raving screaming lunatic abuser, and controlling is open to interpretations because apparently for 15 yrs the problems didn't cause her to leave.

As in all cases there are two sides and all info hasn't been forthcoming.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I didn't, thanks. I thanked OP for sharing more.
> 
> That said there may be a case, from the info, that H isn't a raving screaming lunatic abuser, and controlling is open to interpretations because apparently for 15 yrs the problems didn't cause her to leave.
> 
> As in all cases there are two sides and all info hasn't been forthcoming.


it was problem for 15 years, that's why slowly was checking out. Just becaue he wasn't running around with an axe, doesn't mean this wasn's abusive relationship. These are very hard to leave, especially if you have children and are trying to do what's right. And at that time "right" means forgetting your own happiness and needs, and focus on those of your family.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

WandaJ said:


> it was problem for 15 years, that's why slowly was checking out. Just becaue he wasn't running around with an axe, doesn't mean this wasn's abusive relationship. These are very hard to leave, especially if you have children and are trying to do what's right. And at that time "right" means forgetting your own happiness and needs, and focus on those of your family.


I concur. 
It's not easy.
But by no stretch do things indicate she shouldn't have brought this up years and years ago to a thorough solution even if D.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I concur.
> It's not easy.
> But by no stretch do things indicate she shouldn't have brought this up years and years ago to a thorough solution even if D.


yes probably. But as someone who is currently leaving marriage like this, it does f''ck with your head and your self-esteem, and creates a lot of self doubt in your mind, that maybe you are overblowing things, it is not that bad because today he was in a good mood, etc... It takes years to overcome that mindset and find yourself again, and the strength to stand up for yourself finally. For women - that's often when kids are older, because their first loyalty is to them, not to their own happiness.
I came to TAM in 2013, and at that time I could not wrap my head around divorce, although everybody was telling me that this is the way to go. It took another several years to accept that this is what must happen. I am just doing it now. Haven't been happier in a long time. Do I wish it happened earlier? of course, but it is what it is.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

What I am adding below is kind of too little too late. 

Staying for the children in a loveless and/or abusive marriage rarely does the children any good. I would expect them to believe that the way your relationship works is the way all relationships are. Would you want them to have or be a similar spouse or have a similar relationship?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Hiner112 said:


> What I am adding below is kind of too little too late.
> 
> Staying for the children in a loveless and/or abusive marriage rarely does the children any good. I would expect them to believe that the way your relationship works is the way all relationships are. Would you want them to have or be a similar spouse or have a similar relationship?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Yep. I stayed for children. Today I am realizing that both will need therapy to deal with their father's behavior. They would have been better off with divorce earlier on. Now they are walking on eggshells the way I had to for years.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> it was problem for 15 years, that's why slowly was checking out. Just becaue he wasn't running around with an axe, doesn't mean this wasn's abusive relationship. These are very hard to leave, especially if you have children and are trying to do what's right. And at that time "right" means forgetting your own happiness and needs, and focus on those of your family.


No, she didn’t slowly check out. She has said she checked out 15 yrs ago. There’s a difference.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I don’t buy all the “controlling” and manipulation and “walking on eggshells” stuff. She stayed with the guy 15 years, and had made it clear she didn’t live him for 15 years. She also said he’s a hard worker and not a bad guy.

thus guy has been used for 15 yrs, and will continue to be used.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

WandaJ said:


> Yep. I stayed for children. Today I am realizing that both will need therapy to deal with their father's behavior. They would have been better off with divorce earlier on. Now they are walking on eggshells the way I had to for years.


Yep better to come from a broken home then to live in one.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

WandaJ said:


> yes probably. But as someone who is currently leaving marriage like this, it does f''ck with your head and your self-esteem, and creates a lot of self doubt in your mind, that maybe you are overblowing things, it is not that bad because today he was in a good mood, etc... It takes years to overcome that mindset and find yourself again, and the strength to stand up for yourself finally. For women - that's often when kids are older, because their first loyalty is to them, not to their own happiness.
> I came to TAM in 2013, and at that time I could not wrap my head around divorce, although everybody was telling me that this is the way to go. It took another several years to accept that this is what must happen. I am just doing it now. Haven't been happier in a long time. Do I wish it happened earlier? of course, but it is what it is.


I'm sorry your going through all that.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Any person who refuses to compromise, manipulates, harangues and cheats on their spouse doesn't deserve the time of day let alone a heads up that when the children are out of the house they will be left.

OP, ask yourself how much care and concern your husband took with your feelings throughout your marriage. Extend to him the same degree. Enough with coddling abusers.

He's concerned with how this will affect everyone in his orbit. Nope. He doesn't care about you or them - he cares about being seen as the guy who is such a jerk that his wife left him. As usual, it's all about him.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I'm sorry your going through all that.


hey, I am leaving it all behind me. way too late, but happy now


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> Any person who refuses to compromise, manipulates, harangues and cheats on their spouse doesn't deserve the time of day let alone a heads up that when the children are out of the house they will be left.
> 
> OP, ask yourself how much care and concern your husband took with your feelings throughout your marriage. Extend to him the same degree. Enough with coddling abusers.
> 
> He's concerned with how this will affect everyone in his orbit. Nope. He doesn't care about you or them - he cares about being seen as the guy who is such a jerk that his wife left him. As usual, it's all about him.


it may be you’re 100% accurate. But there may be another side to the story. OP, you are wanting to leave, so it may not be all that great. Maybe the grass is indeed greener. I’ll say this: You say your husband is a decent guy. Those are hard to find. It’s a shame to me to see two people who once loved one another, divorce. I’m skeptical Your perspective is flawed, but if it’s accurate, I wish you luck. Nobody can blame you for seeking happiness.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

WandaJ said:


> hey, I am leaving it all behind me. way too late, but happy now


Yay you!!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

So I wrote my reply before I saw OP's post, I think they were posted around the same time I was writing mine. Anyway I think what some of us have issue was was she specifically said she was done 15 year ago and stayed for the kids. Also that he seemed blindsided. She has since amended that. 

Like I said, when your done your done. He is sad now, he will get over it. Life will go on.


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## cma62 (Jul 31, 2010)

I can relate to OP situation. I too was years before i actually left due to his controlling and abusive ways, but it didnt stop me from trying everything to try to turn things around and make it work. I felt like i was done but fought till the end to try to turn things around.
All these efforts were to no avail ... yet i still hung on trying to make things work until the bitter end. 
We do what we have to to try to make it work for our kids... but when we are done, we’re done, there is no coming back


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

It would probably be an adjustment anyway as they get older - they will always have to adjust to new family dynamics as adult children.

so now they are grown. Move out permanently. Your husband will adjust and learn to live with himself.

my exH (M 27 years) was a very controlling personality that manipulated all of my time and energy.

being on my own is pure freedom!!! Move out now. You’ve waited long enough and it won’t get easier as more time passes.

so just do it! He’s a big boy - he can become flexible and figure things out as he moves along.
Do not try and problem solve his issues after you move! HE needs to learn a new way without your input!

start packing! You can both provide loving homes for the adult kids. Find what makes you happy and do lots of that!


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

sokillme said:


> So I wrote my reply before I saw OP's post, I think they were posted around the same time I was writing mine. Anyway I think what some of us have issue was was she specifically said she was done 15 year ago and stayed for the kids. Also that he seemed blindsided. She has since amended that.
> 
> Like I said, when your done your done. He is sad now, he will get over it. Life will go on.


So he was initially listed as to have been blindsided, but now not? That's been amended?

How does that work?

Two totally opposing circumstances aren't usually reconciled in one sentence. 

OP, was he, or wasn't he blindsided?

And best of luck to you both. This scenario is a hard thing, but you and he can get through it.

This isn't an uncommon situation but it's very personal to a couple when going through it.

You'll make it. Hang in there.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> So he was initially listed as to have been blindsided, but now not? That's been amended?
> 
> How does that work?
> 
> ...


I read that he's blindsided in the sense that he didn't expect her to ask for a divorce even though HE has threatened one over the years.

But he's not in the sense that she's made her unhappiness known over the years.

There seems to be different opinions on whether a guy in particular needs to explicitly be told that his wife is thinking of leaving vs just that she's unhappy. I personally don't even want a guy who didn't care about how he treated me until I was ready to leave.....that tells me its all about him. This guy has not onky demonstrated he doesn't actually care that much about her, he's also a cheater, which seems to have been glossed over.

I treat my bf (and prior to him my hb) well because I care about them, not because I'm afraid they'll dump me. One is about them, the other is about me.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> I read that he's blindsided in the sense that he didn't expect her to ask for a divorce even though HE has threatened one over the years.
> 
> But he's not in the sense that she's made her unhappiness known over the years.
> 
> ...


If he's a confirmed cheater that's all she wrote!


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> If he's a confirmed cheater that's all she wrote!


She said he's had his "indiscretions" over the years....i assumed she meant cheating.

Hopefully she'll verify that.


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## Sunshine66 (Nov 4, 2020)

Evinrude58 said:


> No, she didn’t slowly check out. She has said she checked out 15 yrs ago. There’s a difference.


I did write that but I didn't check out of the marriage until the last five years. I think the process to check out was slow. I didn't get married to get divorced. I wasn't a freeloader on the family system, I worked as hard if not harder in many respects. I worked the graveyard shift so I could be home with the children during the day, to say I remember my 30's is a laugh. I came up for air in my early 40's from sleep deprivation and a job shift.


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## Sunshine66 (Nov 4, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> She said he's had his "indiscretions" over the years....i assumed she meant cheating.
> 
> Hopefully she'll verify that.


Yes


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

If he's had multiple PAs throughout the M that's a wholly different situation.

OP, is H a serial cheater?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Sunshine66 said:


> I did write that but I didn't check out of the marriage until the last five years. I think the process to check out was slow. I didn't get married to get divorced. I wasn't a freeloader on the family system, I worked as hard if not harder in many respects. *I worked the graveyard shift so I could be home with the children during the day,* to say I remember my 30's is a laugh. I came up for air in my early 40's from sleep deprivation and a job shift.


Now, some will claim that it is all your fault because you chose to work the graveyard shift and wasn't home to hold his hand at night. They'll claim that you could have put the kids in childcare. Pffffft. There is just no satisfying some people's need to judge you. Hang tough.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Sunshine66 said:


> I did write that but I didn't check out of the marriage until the last five years. I think the process to check out was slow. I didn't get married to get divorced. I wasn't a freeloader on the family system, I worked as hard if not harder in many respects. I worked the graveyard shift so I could be home with the children during the day, to say I remember my 30's is a laugh. I came up for air in my early 40's from sleep deprivation and a job shift.


The post above beside do YOU think that also contributed to your marriage failing? This is not a criticism but I am curious doesn't sound like either one of you had the time to really work on your marriage. I mean presumably this is the beginning of when you guys started to disconnect which is understandable if you are so tired you don't even remember it. Maybe it just was never going to succeed given the circumstances and him cheating.

When did he cheat? How did you find out, that would help us give you better advice..


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> Now, some will claim that it is all your fault because you chose to work the graveyard shift and wasn't home to hold his hand at night. They'll claim that you could have put the kids in childcare. Pffffft. There is just no satisfying some people's need to judge you. Hang tough.


Of course that has an impact. That doesn't mean she is at fault for that. Financial struggles are a pretty common problem in marriage and often lead to it breaking up. Doesn't mean anyone is judging her for it. 

Besides that if he cheated that is where the marriage died. 

Like I said before he will get over it. Life will go on.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I was blindsided, but my wife was telling me she loved me. But only after sex. So, not very often.... still...  

OP, your husband sounds like an horrible man to me.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Sunshine66 said:


> I did write that but I didn't check out of the marriage until the last five years. I think the process to check out was slow. I didn't get married to get divorced. I wasn't a freeloader on the family system, I worked as hard if not harder in many respects. I worked the graveyard shift so I could be home with the children during the day, to say I remember my 30's is a laugh. I came up for air in my early 40's from sleep deprivation and a job shift.





Sunshine66 said:


> Yes


(The second quote was verification he was cheating)
What were the reasons he gave for cheating? Why did you take him back, multiple times? You were faithful? Did he have some sort of an epiphany and stopped cheating, and if so, was that due to an ultimatum on your part?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Casual Observer said:


> (The second quote was verification he was cheating)
> What were the reasons he gave for cheating? Why did you take him back, multiple times? You were faithful? Did he have some sort of an epiphany and stopped cheating, and if so, was that due to an ultimatum on your part?


Would any of this be asked of a guy with a wife who had a history of cheating?

I don't think I've ever seen a guy asked whether he cheated too (without a reason) or what his cheating wife’s rationale was because nobody would care.

For whatever reason many on this thread see this guy as a poor victim and I don't get it.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

i have no compassion for a serial cheater. And I think the likelihood of such a person being abusive is super high, and you have stated this is the case.
Divorce him, he deserves it.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> *Would any of this be asked of a guy with a wife who had a history of cheating?*
> 
> I don't think I've ever seen a guy asked whether he cheated too (without a reason) or what his cheating wife’s rationale was because nobody would care.
> 
> For whatever reason many on this thread see this guy as a poor victim and I don't get it.





Casual Observer said:


> Cheating is not his fault, but this would be a very good time to become introspective and look at his own contribution to the relationship. He sounds like he's become a bit cold or tone-deaf to the things that might be troubling his wife. It also sounds like my favorite subject comes up yet again- the need for discussions of notions of boundaries and privacy. A relationship that kind of gradually seems to grow apart over the years is likely a relationship where the couple mistakenly believes there's not much to address in that regard. In fact, that may be how they got there. Each person replacing things they find lacking in their spouse with something from outside the marital relationship.


(I just added my reply from another thread, which precisely answers the question of whether anyone would ask such questions of a guy if his wife we cheating on him.)

I respect that you feel that way, but I don't think it's true. I've seen many instances of guys being asked how they might have contributed to the deterioration of a relationship, one in which the wife was cheating. And asked if they had cheated as well.

We usually get just one side of the story here; the other party isn't here to either defend or even explain their side. And it's beyond question that we all have difficulty understanding our partners at times... so, if someone comes here looking for advice, and offering data to justify their actions... it makes sense to explore how their view may be distorted or lacking in crucial detail. When we have faults (not if), we are often reluctant to throw ourselves under the bus.

And, given the ridiculously-high odds claimed for cheating in relationships, for both sexes, unless the TAM audience is self-selected, there's a lot of blame to go around. 

One of the great things about TAM is that people feel reasonably free to bring up alternative scenarios to what is portrayed, as well as the self-centering mechanism you displayed in your reply to me. There's lots to think about.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Evinrude58 said:


> i have no compassion for a serial cheater. And I think the likelihood of such a person being abusive is super high, and you have stated this is the case.
> Divorce him, he deserves it.


On this I absolutely agree, but I don't believe this was disclosed in the initial post. That's the reason so many uncomfortable questions (some of which might appear to be "blaming the victim") are asked.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I still do not believe how his verbal abuse is being dismissed here, mostly by men. Who, by the way, would not accept anything like that from their wives. 
This is one of the love busters, just this itself is enough to kill whatever feelings she would have for him. add cheating to that, and there is really nothing to save here.
When there is guy complaining about verbal abuse, he is told to do 180, take a blue or red, or green pill, and get his balls back.

Well, lady, get your vagina back.Go, divorce. you deserve your freedom from abuse.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Casual Observer said:


> *On this I absolutely agree,* but I don't believe this was disclosed in the initial post. That's the reason so many uncomfortable questions (some of which might appear to be "blaming the victim") are asked.


You agree and yet you continue to try to get her to justify why she's dumping the chump (er, decent guy). She doesn't need anyone's approval and she doesn't have to sit in misery and sing kumbaya with the other people who insist on being miserable.

She's earned the right to end the marriage by the years she suffered so the kids would have a 2 parent household. She gets to actually enjoy her life now.

I don't understand how insinuating or outright telling someone that they didn't do enough is considered to be supportive. It's as though unless the woman is beaten half to death she doesn't have a right to call it a day. And, yet, if a guy complains that he isn't getting his blowies on the regular then it's time to kick that frigid, selfish, prudish witch to the curb. It's enough to make my hair go grey.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> You agree and yet you continue to try to get her to justify why she's dumping the chump (er, decent guy). She doesn't need anyone's approval and she doesn't have to sit in misery and sing kumbaya with the other people who insist on being miserable.
> 
> She's earned the right to end the marriage by the years she suffered so the kids would have a 2 parent household. She gets to actually enjoy her life now.
> 
> *I don't understand how insinuating or outright telling someone that they didn't do enough is considered to be supportive. It's as though unless the woman is beaten half to death she doesn't have a right to call it a day. And, yet, if a guy complains that he isn't getting his blowies on the regular then it's time to kick that frigid, selfish, prudish witch to the curb. It's enough to make my hair go grey.*


You don't understand because you refuse to see the context. I have tried to explain, repeatedly, how we get a filtered stream of information from anyone creating a thread, and there are questions to be asked, and answered, that help to understand the situation. You can't know until... you know. The OP in her original post even made it sound like her husband was a pretty decent guy, and yet later, when asked, mentioned several affairs. Were we supposed to just assume that had been the case? What is the context that wasn't mentioned in the original post? It would be a deal-breaker for many, probably most.

Saying this is about insinuation or accusation is kind of a cheap shot that can be used to shut down most any question.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

OP you deserve to be happy. He doesn't seem capable of that. He wants a prop around to agree with him and do what he wants. That isn't a decent guy BTW. That's simply a bully. Makes you pay by berating or raising their voice or insulting when you don't fall in line. He may feel blindsided but only because HE NEVER listened. How is that your problem? Add cheating and he is surprised.

Don't do anything for his wellbeing. Do things for yours. Do you want to stay in the house? Do you want to spend your holidays with him? If so stay. If not start living your life. There is always the next holiday, birthday, reason why he's not ready to give up his support system. You need a support system too. You have some good friends great, that's all you need. Being older you may or may not find someone else. It sounds like living alone would be better than this. You be you. You've given enough.

And yes you've triggered some of the nice guys here. We see people here all the time getting divorced. Often the man is 'blindsided' because he didn't know there was a problem. Often times the woman comes and talks about the way she's been treated for years. Things she's asked for or said that have been ignored. Having job and not physically abusing you is not a decent guy that's a bare minimum. A decent guy treats you with respect which would include allowing you to have an opinion. Not sleeping with other women and not threatening you with divorce.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Casual Observer said:


> You don't understand because you refuse to see the context. I have tried to explain, repeatedly, how we get a filtered stream of information from anyone creating a thread, and there are questions to be asked, and answered, that help to understand the situation. You can't know until... you know. *The OP in her original post even made it sound like her husband was a pretty decent guy, and yet later, when asked, mentioned several affairs. Were we supposed to just assume that had been the case?* What is the context that wasn't mentioned in the original post? It would be a deal-breaker for many, probably most.
> 
> Saying this is about insinuation or accusation is kind of a cheap shot that can be used to shut down most any question.



See the bolded. That indeed was the first bit of info.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Casual Observer said:


> You don't understand because you refuse to see the context.


The context I understand is that in her 12 posts, *not once *has she indicated she was seeking input or advice on whether she *should* file for divorce. Not once has she said she would consider continuing the marriage.

When posters take it upon themselves to try and get the member to second guess themselves and try to get them to change their mind by digging into all of the nooks and crannies for a toehold, I see an agenda. It is patronizing and smacks of the very same behavior she has had to tolerate her entire marriage. But, go ahead and think that your limited experience with marriage counseling entitles you to act like you have any say whatsoever in her decision. 

Her decision has been made. She only wants to know how she can survive until after the holidays. And, the answer to that is to avoid the guy as much as possible.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> The context I understand is that in her 12 posts, *not once *has she indicated she was seeking input or advice on whether she *should* file for divorce. Not once has she said she would consider continuing the marriage.





> @Sunshine66 said- "Is anyone going through anything similar? Are there people who have chosen to stay?"


That's how she ended her very first post. Prior to that she talked about maybe he was right about getting older and feeling alone (as reasons for her to consider staying).

It's all in what you choose to absorb or ignore isn't it? We will all be tainted by our own experiences.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Given that he cheated - and cheated more than once... that’s reason enough to divorce him.

he repeatedly disrespected and disregarded you when he cheated. Then he EXPECTED that you would stay.

there’s NO reason to stay. There’s no reason you should have stayed and sacrifice all those years. But now that the kids are grown just move and file now! There’s not one reason to spend any more time living with someone that betrays you repeatedly - that’s a special kind of abuse - and should never be tolerated.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I can read the anxiety and terror in her words, living with an emotionally abusive man, regardless of how "decent" he is (how can you be decent and abusive?). She is right to leave him, she needs peace. Of course now the husband understands the consequences of his behaviour, but it's too late and he should accept it and move on.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

WandaJ said:


> I still do not believe how his verbal abuse is being dismissed here, mostly by men. Who, by the way, would not accept anything like that from their wives.
> This is one of the love busters, just this itself is enough to kill whatever feelings she would have for him. add cheating to that, and there is really nothing to save here.
> When there is guy complaining about verbal abuse, he is told to do 180, take a blue or red, or green pill, and get his balls back.
> 
> Well, lady, get your vagina back.Go, divorce. you deserve your freedom from abuse.


Trouble is that abuse can mean different things to different people and differs in its severity enormously. Not saying this is the case here at all, but the word abuse is greatly overused these days. The fact that he is also a serial cheat wasnt mentioned initially, and does make thing more serious.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Trouble is that abuse can mean different things to different people and differs in its severity enormously. Not saying this is the case here at all, but the word abuse is greatly overused these days. The fact that he is also a serial cheat wasnt mentioned initially, and does make thing more serious.


No, the word abuse is not overused. Abuse was always big part of marriage, women were just told not to complain and do their marital duty. Smile, don’t talk bad about your husband.

it is a sign of privilege to say that this word is abused. Means you are lucky to never experienced that. But that’s your only experience.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

WandaJ said:


> No, the word abuse is not overused. Abuse was always big part of marriage, women were just told not to complain and do their marital duty. Smile, don’t talk bad about your husband.
> 
> it is a sign of privilege to say that this word is abused. Means you are lucky to never experienced that. But that’s your only experience.


There are several people in my family who were abused and my first husband was abusive, so yes I do know a lot about it thanks, but I also know cases when the word was used to justify a divorce they wanted (in one case where they had met another man) when there was no reason. Yes they are people I know very well before you ask. Its like PTSD, so many people now think they have it now when it was originally only those who had suffered severe trauma for example in war like situations who were diagnosed. Its the new buzz word, every bad thing people go though, they now have PSTD.
'Emotional abuse' is used to describe anything from having a spouse who occasionally looses their temper to what IS actually emotional abuse, when one spouse is highly controlling and manipulative and seeks to control every aspect of their partners life.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> There are several people in my family who were abused and my first husband was abusive, so yes I do know a lot about it thanks, but I also know cases when the word was used to justify a divorce they wanted (in one case where they had met another man) when there was no reason. Yes they are people I know very well before you ask. Its like PTSD, so many people now think they have it now when it was originally only those who had suffered severe trauma for example in war like situations who were diagnosed. Its the new buzz word, every bad thing people go though, they now have PSTD.
> 'Emotional abuse' is used to describe anything from having a spouse who occasionally looses their temper to what IS actually emotional abuse, when one spouse is highly controlling and manipulative and seeks to control every aspect of their partners life.


How do you know what’s going on in these marriages behind closed door, when nobody is looking? You are assuming that this is all made up


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

WandaJ said:


> How do you know what’s going on in these marriages behind closed door, when nobody is looking? You are assuming that this is all made up


I know. One of them was my husband. Even his sons said that it was she who was the controlling and manipulative one, and a very good friend of them both said the same. Yet she claimed he was the emotionlly abusive one and divorced him after meeting another man. She even want on a weekend course for those who had been abused, it was laughable. He is the most patient, easygoing, laid back, easy to please man I have ever known, and hasnt got an abusive bone in his body. He wouldnt know how to even if he tried, its just not in him. So yes it does happen, and even on this forum we have seen cases where emotional abuse was claimed for some pretty minor things. .


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> The context I understand is that in her 12 posts, *not once *has she indicated she was seeking input or advice on whether she *should* file for divorce. Not once has she said she would consider continuing the marriage.
> 
> *When posters take it upon themselves to try and get the member to second guess themselves and try to get them to change their mind by digging into all of the nooks and crannies for a toehold, I see an agenda.* It is patronizing and smacks of the very same behavior she has had to tolerate her entire marriage. But, go ahead and think that your limited experience with marriage counseling entitles you to act like you have any say whatsoever in her decision.
> 
> Her decision has been made. She only wants to know how she can survive until after the holidays. And, the answer to that is to avoid the guy as much as possible.


Exactly what is this mysterious agenda?
People come here to talk and exchange thoughts on things. Most people want to know details and reasons for actions about serious things like divorce. Everyone, including me, is likely guilty of spinning stories and marital histories to make them look like the good guy. Things like a husband hitting his wife, a husband cheating on his wife—- these things are unable to be spun. It’s concrete things like this that are facts that should be mentioned in order for a reader to fully grasp the seriousness of a divorce being required. Most people here don’t want others to go through the pain of divorce if it could be prevented. 
saying a man is “manipulative” and “controlling” are words that every woman in the phone book uses to portray her husband when she’s down on him.
“Honey, could you put the toilet paper roll on so that the end is flopping down over the front” could be presented as a horrible “controlling” thing; whereas the same person who tells their husband to put the damn seat down on the toilet is just trying to stop an annoying habit.
Asking his wife not to hang out drinking with men after work— “he’s controlling”.... yet her asking him to go to her parents house for thanksgiving 20 yrs in a row and pitching a fit if he wants to go to his parents for thanksgiving is reasonable behavior.
Manipulation? Same thing— all in one’s perspective. 
So when a poster says their husband is manipulative and controlling and doesn’t care to get into examples, and leaves out that he’s a serial cheater.......

It makes me feel a little controlled and manipulated when honest discourse is labeled as patronizing and such.
I declare my boxers hereby wadded...


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> *No, the word abuse is not overused. Abuse was always big part of marriage, women were just told not to complain and do their marital duty.* Smile, don’t talk bad about your husband.
> 
> it is a sign of privilege to say that this word is abused. Means you are lucky to never experienced that. But that’s your only experience.


Speaking of axes to Grind and agendas...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Evinrude58 said:


> Exactly what is this mysterious agenda?
> People come here to talk and exchange thoughts on things. Most people want to know details and reasons for actions about serious things like divorce. Everyone, including me, is likely guilty of spinning stories and marital histories to make them look like the good guy. Things like a husband hitting his wife, a husband cheating on his wife—- these things are unable to be spun. It’s concrete things like this that are facts that should be mentioned in order for a reader to fully grasp the seriousness of a divorce being required. Most people here don’t want others to go through the pain of divorce if it could be prevented.
> saying a man is “manipulative” and “controlling” are words that every woman in the phone book uses to portray her husband when she’s down on him.
> “Honey, could you put the toilet paper roll on so that the end is flopping down over the front” could be presented as a horrible “controlling” thing; whereas the same person who tells their husband to put the damn seat down on the toilet is just trying to stop an annoying habit.
> ...


Absolutely, its all about perspective and whether we are trying to get sympathy and support to end the marriage from our 'abusive' spouse. We all know there are genuine cases of serious abuse, and we feel nothing but sympthy for those who are in that situation.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Evinrude58 said:


> Exactly what is this mysterious agenda?
> People come here to talk and exchange thoughts on things. Most people want to know details and reasons for actions about serious things like divorce. Everyone, including me, is likely guilty of spinning stories and marital histories to make them look like the good guy. Things like a husband hitting his wife, a husband cheating on his wife—- these things are unable to be spun. It’s concrete things like this that are facts that should be mentioned in order for a reader to fully grasp the seriousness of a divorce being required. Most people here don’t want others to go through the pain of divorce if it could be prevented.
> saying a man is “manipulative” and “controlling” are words that every woman in the phone book uses to portray her husband when she’s down on him.
> “Honey, could you put the toilet paper roll on so that the end is flopping down over the front” could be presented as a horrible “controlling” thing; whereas the same person who tells their husband to put the damn seat down on the toilet is just trying to stop an annoying habit.
> ...


Well I'd say if OP's version of controlling is, as you say, "don't go out drinking with other men" then it would seem he's better off without her, don't you think? If she's that difficult then why would he be begging her to stay?

Just as she's being grilled about how could he be so terrible if she stuck around the last 10 years he could be grilled on why he wants to stay married to such a difficult woman.

Either way she doesn't want to be married to him anymore so that's it, and he's resorted to trying to guilt her into staying. That right there tells me its all about him.

Would you resort to guilting a woman who was sleeping in the spare bedroom if she was so difficult?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Well I'd say if OP's version of controlling is, as you say, "don't go out drinking with other men" then it would seem he's better off without her, don't you think? If she's that difficult then why would he be begging her to stay?
> 
> Just as she's being grilled about how could he be so terrible if she stuck around the last 10 years he could be grilled on why he wants to stay married to such a difficult woman.
> 
> ...


I think OP contributed to his belief that "guilting" (which some would say was a conversation, in which she is free to explain her side) was something that would work based on her continuing to provide sex on demand. 

Look, everything changed when OP clarified things in a later post, saying he'd had multiple affairs. If that was said up-front, there'd have been little or no debate about her divorcing and moving on. The conversation instead would have been "Girl, why are you even asking the question???!!! This guy's a dog. Move on!" But that's not in her original post, which she essentially ended with a question of whether maybe her husband had a point.

If nobody had asked for clarification (which a few saw as "blaming" the victim), the thread would have read very differently, and less relevantly.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

So, it's only because he cheated that it's deemed acceptable for her to pursue a divorce. Gotcha. I have now seen the light.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Well I'd say if OP's version of controlling is, as you say, "don't go out drinking with other men" then it would seem he's better off without her, don't you think? If she's that difficult then why would he be begging her to stay?
> 
> Just as she's being grilled about how could he be so terrible if she stuck around the last 10 years he could be grilled on why he wants to stay married to such a difficult woman.
> 
> ...


My perspective is that if you can say “it’s all about him” without hearing one single word from his side of things, I think you are very biased.

He’s a cheater. Enough said. Guilt her into staying? Every person on the planet will do what they can to get out of severe pain. None of are so perfect we wouldn’t do the same.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> So, it's only because he cheated that it's deemed acceptable for her to pursue a divorce. Gotcha. I have now seen the light.


Again, she asked the question if there might be rationalization to stay, not anybody else on TAM. She ended her first post with "Is anyone going through anything similar? Are there people who have chosen to stay?" 

It was relevant, based on that, for people to give her rationale for deciding either way. She asked about people going through something similar. She was looking for reasons that someone might choose to stay. Those are her words, not mine, not yours. 

So yeah, it makes a HUGE difference when she adds important details that would make her original question... have an obvious and irrefutable answer. As in, why would you even ask? The guy's slime. But that was not in evidence originally. Nor would it have been if people hadn't asked her questions.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> So, it's only because he cheated that it's deemed acceptable for her to pursue a divorce. Gotcha. I have now seen the light.


You’re being purposefully obtuse...
Nobody has said that.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Casual Observer said:


> I think OP contributed to his belief that "guilting" (which some would say was a conversation, in which she is free to explain her side) was something that would work based on her continuing to provide sex on demand.
> 
> Look, everything changed when OP clarified things in a later post, saying he'd had multiple affairs. If that was said up-front, there'd have been little or no debate about her divorcing and moving on. The conversation instead would have been "Girl, why are you even asking the question???!!! This guy's a dog. Move on!" But that's not in her original post, which she essentially ended with a question of whether maybe her husband had a point.
> 
> If nobody had asked for clarification (which a few saw as "blaming" the victim), the thread would have read very differently, and less relevantly.


It's interesting that the cheating is what it takes for some to find leaving justifiable. You may be aware that my ex had one of his ex gf's around our entire relationship. I could never find s smoking gun per se but I found enough communication that was questionable (and I as his wife waa never mentioned ) that I knew it was shady, plus when confronted all he did was lie and change his story based on what i knew.

I remember a friend at the time telling me that his treatment of me throughout the marriage was the main issue, not the ex gf. In hindsight I think she was correct; while it was the final straw it was true that his behavior throughout was the bigger issue. If you care for more details you're welcome to look up my thread.

In my opinion the marriage might have been salvageable if he hadn't been such a nasty asshole and if he'd come clean. It's better for me this way because he really wasn't that great of a deal for me (not my kids father) but I digress.

What I considered poor treatment some here might tell me wasn't that bad....we all have our thresholds and biases. But we each get to decide for ourselves based on what we can deal with.

I get that cheating is an objective measure, but not only is it not the only measure...it's not necessarily even the biggest measure. OP might see it like this, then you throw in that she's been checked out a long time and this results in her not even bringing the cheating up. To her it may be a secondary issue.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> I get that cheating is an objective measure, but not only is it not the only measure...it's not necessarily even the biggest measure. OP might see it like this, then you throw in that she's been checked out a long time and this results in her not even bringing the cheating up. To her it may be a secondary issue.


Bingo! Context is everything. I think the reality is that it's not any one single thing that makes it time to throw in the towel, but a combination of events and mannerisms. Which I believe is what you said as well. I don't think we're on different pages at all; we just have different things we trigger on and respond to. If everyone felt exactly the same way, if they all triggered on the same things, there'd be no point to TAM. You could get what you need from reading a single book that had it all down pat.

Ah, forgot to address why cheating is seen so often as the "only" measure. It's not, but it's the closest thing to a "universal" measure we've got... if you took a poll, you'd maybe find 80%+ saw cheating as enough reason, by itself, to leave a marriage, while others trail behind. That doesn't make the others irrelevant but it does establish a commonality to cheating such that it will pretty much always be supported as reason to leave. And thus misconstrued as the most-important which might be true in general but not as a rule.

Thank you for the discussion.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Sorry your here, things can get better, whether a D or an improvement in relations.
> 
> It certainly sounds like your ready to go, and have been planning for a while.
> 
> ...


Admittedly, I've only read the first page of replies, but I believe this response, as well as the others that are similar, are way off interpreting what happened. I think you are underestimating what it can be like for a woman living with a difficult, controlling man. Sometimes you are just trying to get through each day without some type of emotional meltdown from him. Sometimes simply trying to "tell him early on" has a huge emotional cost that isn't worth it or is so draining that you procrastinate and wait for your way out. What I've bolded in your response seems unduly harsh and unsubstantiated.

I for one, am in NO position to judge the methods and motivations of someone who has stayed in an unhappy marriage until it wasn't possible to handle it anymore. I think it would be better to answer the OP's questions, which are the reason for her post here, instead of trying to dig out of her whether she timed this right for a self-centered, unloving husband or not, and basing our support on how much we agree with her or not.

@Sunshine66, there is NO magic answer to how to get through this without falling apart - you just need to keep going instead of stalling, and stay strong, focused on your ultimate goal of eventual peace for yourself. Are you going to always do things "right", or the best way for everyone...? Probably not. But inaction is even worse. Sometimes the ache is like a physical pressure on your whole body, I understand, but the only thing you can do is GET THROUGH IT. 
Winston Churchill said, when you are going through Hell, KEEP GOING. Be strong and fall apart when it's over.

It's true that your husband isn't where you are with this - he's been getting things his way for all these years and now he's "blindsided" because you are taking your power back from him. GOOD, you should have power over yourself and what YOU want. But he is going to process this like a death, because it IS in a way. So be prepared for him to go through all the grief stages. You can empathize with him, if you want to, without making false promises.
The important thing you need to remember is that you are no longer responsible for HIS feelings - in fact, you never were - and you DO NOT owe him anything by giving him what HE wants over what YOU want. 

You owe it to yourself to get what YOU want from your life, and what will make you happy and bring you PEACE.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I have been told I don't understand the context of her posts and told I am obtuse by two guys who have three totally **** marriages between them. I stand down. Enjoy your feelings of superiority and revel in your knowledge of women and relationships.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

lifeistooshort said:


> What I considered poor treatment some here might tell me wasn't that bad....we all have our thresholds and biases. But we each get to decide for ourselves based on what we can deal with.


THANK YOU for this!!! This is exactly right (to ME)!!


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> I have been told I don't understand the context of her posts and told I am obtuse by two guys who have three totally **** marriages between them. I stand down. Enjoy your feelings of superiority and revel in your knowledge of women and relationships.


I pointed out that the context changed with the added information. The first post was quite different from the later posts. That shouldn't be a big deal. It's one of the strengths of a forum like this. Context and understanding changing... isn't that almost the definition of learning? 

Only on TAM would I get criticized by some for being a "nice guy" who incorrectly projects that others would be similar and thus my comments irrelevant, and by others told I have a "totally *** marriage" and so again irrelevant. I could be offended, but I'd rather laugh and suggest that it could be the purpose of my life is to serve as a warning to others.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> Only on TAM would I get criticized by some for being a "nice guy" who incorrectly projects that others would be similar and thus my comments irrelevant, and by others told *I have a "totally *** marriage" and so again irrelevant*. I could be offended, but I'd rather laugh and suggest that it could be the purpose of my life is to serve as a warning to others.


This is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE!!!!!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

> My marriage was not horrible but it also was not great, nor is he a bad person, and I would like to think I am not either. I have wanted out of this marriage and been unhappy for a long time. It has been a thought in my mind for a good 15 years. Because there was no physical abuse and our children were small I was committed to staying. In my mind I consoled myself with the fact that it was my choice to stay or leave.


This was her first post.

A lot of us criticized her for saying she was thinking about leaving for 15 years but staying to raise the kids. This post makes it sound like he was blindsided and both of them wasted 15 years. There wasn't a word about the cheating. The cheating would have changed the whole tone of the response.

It's kinda weird that it wasn't even mentioned, in fact she goes out of her way to say he isn't a bad person, yet cheated on her multiple times. He sounds like an asshole. And unfortunately she sounds very passive. Actually pretty a typical marriage dynamic with adultery in it.

For myself, my original response was given from the information I received above in this context -
​If you never tell a decent spouse you are unhappy because you are afraid of conflict then you are NOT a good partner. If you are so unhappy that you want to leave and you don't because you are afraid of the risk you are not doing anyone any favors. You are not doing right by your spouse who you are going to blindside 5, 10 ,15 years older to start over. That is just not right. If you are unhappy with your spouse for years, and don't say anything you don't get to leave with your head high like you did everything you could or were a good spouse because your didn't, and you contributed to the problem. Understand you are probably still going to have problems in your next relationship because being passive and conflict avoidant in a relationship leads to problems.​​I am also not talking about marriage where the problems get worse and worse by the way.

Or the kind of marriages that *LisaDiane* describes above, believe me I understand that because my Step Father was verbally abusive the whole time. I was the one who finally left at 18. My Mom should have left him the 3rd year but she just kept praying thinking it would get better. It was another 7 years before she finally did and only because, at that point I was an established adult man and was about to convince her how she really wasn't safe but worst off staying with him. What needs to happen in situations like this is women need to be empowered to leave. And maybe that was the case with OP.

That being said OP purposely went out of her way in the first sentence to say he wasn't a bad guy which is why the advice was the way it was.

That doesn't seem to be the case here anymore and so I amended my response as I think everyone else did.

I also said either way if your done your done and she should leave right away and not prolong the agony. As I have always said, marriage for marriage sake is stupid.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> Only on TAM would I get criticized by some for being a "nice guy" who incorrectly projects that others would be similar and thus my comments irrelevant, and by others told I have a "totally *** marriage" and so again irrelevant.


Same here... but it's true...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> Same here... but it's true...


NOPE -- NO WAY...that's NOT true at all!!! Just like with @Casual Observer, your contributions are always relevant whether I agree with your actions or not, and I'm sure most members think the same!!!


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> NOPE -- NO WAY...that's NOT true at all!!! Just like with @Casual Observer, your contributions are always relevant whether I agree with your actions or not, and I'm sure most members think the same!!!


doesn't feel that way... but it doesn't matter.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

sokillme said:


> This was her first post.
> 
> A lot of us criticized her for saying she was thinking about leaving for 15 years but staying to raise the kids. This post makes it sound like he was blindsided and both of them wasted 15 years. There wasn't a word about the cheating. The cheating would have changed the whole tone of the response.
> 
> ...


This is a great post (as usual)!!! What I bolded (from your original post) is VERY valuable too, for me!!!

I hope you don't believe that I was criticizing or correcting anything YOU wrote - I don't think I even read your post, since I only read the first page. And actually, I wasn't being critical of anyone, I just wanted to say what I thought and to offer another perspective, which can sometimes be lost on people who have never experienced being in a relationship with a controlling, emotionally unpredictable person who could physically harm you (with their hands) if you really stood up for yourself. It's not always safe for women to set strong boundaries with emotionally immature men, unless they have a back-up plan to run away, or another man to protect them...or a gun. I'm NOT saying that that's the OP's situation, but I always keep that in mind.

Also, notice the disconnect for her between how she perceives him (not a bad guy), and how he IS (a cheating a-hole) -- THAT is an indication of someone who has been emotionally manipulated for a LONG time. I always try to be more sympathetic and probing with first posters, so that they feel safer to reveal more, even inadvertently.

Not to mention the "gray" area between whether you are right or not, whether you are being too selfish, whether you are doing the right thing, etc etc, which exists for ALL partners in unhappy relationships, and people who are NOT trying to take advantage of their spouse can end up staying in a marriage for way too long. I thought it was clear from her first post that she was never intentionally trying to get what she could from him and then leave him to be miserable in his golden years...as so many people on this board know, even when divorce is the BEST choice, it is very difficult and gut wrenching. I could hear the suffering she is going through as well in her post, and I wanted to respond to that.

I would NEVER want anyone to change their posts based on something I said!!!!!!! I don't expect anyone to agree with me all the time, nor would I find this site interesting at all if I agreed with all the posters!!! We aren't trying to create an "Echo Chamber" here, we are bouncing all our different perspectives off of eachother, and I find the posts that I disagree with even more thought-provoking than the ones that I do agree with!
I LIKED @Ragnar Ragnasson's post, I'm glad he posted it, even though I don't agree with his thought process! (and I certainly could always be wrong) 
I just wanted to make him THINK about things from a different perspective, and to support the OP.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> I hope you don't believe that I was criticizing or correcting anything YOU wrote - I don't think I even read your post, since I only read the first page.


I know and I don't, but feel free to do so when you think I am wrong. I don't feel I am the arbitrator of truth, my "self-assured" (I can hear people thinking of other words) tone notwithstanding. More then once people have told me am FOS and sometimes they may have even had a point. Frankly because my tone is often so "self-assured" I should be told I am FOS from time to time. It's only fitting. What's good for the goose and all that.



LisaDiane said:


> Also, notice the disconnect for her between how she perceives him (not a bad guy), and how he IS (a cheating a-hole) -- THAT is an indication of someone who has been emotionally manipulated for a LONG time. I always try to be more sympathetic and probing with first posters, so that they feel safer to reveal more, even inadvertently.
> 
> Not to mention the "gray" area between whether you are right or not, whether you are being too selfish, whether you are doing the right thing, etc etc, which exists for ALL partners in unhappy relationships, and people who are NOT trying to take advantage of their spouse can end up staying in a marriage for way too long. I thought it was clear from her first post that she was never intentionally trying to get what she could from him and then leave him to be miserable in his golden years...as so many people on this board know, even when divorce is the BEST choice, it is very difficult and gut wrenching. I could hear the suffering she is going through as well in her post, and I wanted to respond to that.


And I have to say this point is one of those times. Having grown up around one of those types of relationships I would do well to remember what it's like. Everything you say I can relate to from watching my Mom and Step Father. I do believe this is how it works, especially in the beginning. When someones reaction seems so far off and unreasonable I think the first thought, having no experience with the irrational is to think, did I do something to push them to act like this?

I guess in my own experience is different because my Mom is like me or I should say I am like my Mom, in the sense that she is not afraid of confrontation. So at the end of their marriage there was no guilt that she was feeling or doubt that she was morally wrong to leave, just fear and the desire not to brake her vows under God. There was certainly no love lost between her and him. Anyway you are right to remind us all about how this dynamic can work. 

This was a very good point, and unfortunately I feel maybe we did OP a disservice. If you read my post you know I feel very strongly about empowering people to leave abusive relationships and if he was cheating on her it was by it's very definition an abusive relationship. I wish the initial post would have mentioned them.



LisaDiane said:


> I would NEVER want anyone to change their posts based on something I said!!!!!!! I don't expect anyone to agree with me all the time, nor would I find this site interesting at all if I agreed with all the posters!!! We aren't trying to create an "Echo Chamber" here, we are bouncing all our different perspectives off of eachother, and I find the posts that I disagree with even more thought-provoking than the ones that I do agree with!


Well to that first part, if the advice is good hopefully they will change. I do agree that it's good we don't have and "Echo Chamber", I appreciate that many of the posters have a totally different view on things then I do. That is a good thing. There will always be more then one way to fix and issue and maybe their advice would work better then mine, depending on the OP.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

sokillme said:


> This was a very good point, and unfortunately I feel maybe we did OP a disservice.


There is no doubt about it. I doubt the OP will return.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I know. One of them was my husband. Even his sons said that it was she who was the controlling and manipulative one, and a very good friend of them both said the same. Yet she claimed he was the emotionlly abusive one and divorced him after meeting another man. She even want on a weekend course for those who had been abused, it was laughable. He is the most patient, easygoing, laid back, easy to please man I have ever known, and hasnt got an abusive bone in his body. He wouldnt know how to even if he tried, its just not in him. So yes it does happen, and even on this forum we have seen cases where emotional abuse was claimed for some pretty minor things. .


then you know one. and in this case she was abusive.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Sadly the fact that OP likely won't return may be an indication that the M circumstances aren't exactly as tragic or horrible as portrayed and OP didn't like the lack of gushing support she felt deserved. 

Now, if there was cheating a d abuse by H that's a diff story and of course that's terrible.

So if I'm wrong I apologize to OP in advance.

But the different perspectives offered her will likely help her in some way, hopefully in a positive manner.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Sadly the fact that OP likely won't return may be an indication that the M circumstances aren't exactly as tragic or horrible as portrayed and OP didn't like the lack of gushing support she felt deserved.


or she felt that she has been dismissed by people who knew "better"...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

WandaJ said:


> or she felt that she has been dismissed by people who knew "better"...


It is thoroughly possible.

But perceptions aren't always reality. Just saying something doesn't make it true.

How a person accepts differing views on any subject is telling in itself.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> It is thoroughly possible.
> 
> But perceptions aren't always reality. Just saying something doesn't make it true.
> 
> How a person accepts differing views on any subject is telling in itself.


The thing is this is hardly ever done to guys here, we are not convincing them that their perception is wrong. I am not sure why this OP got such backslash here. Some of the people posting are sometimes to know it all, and will easy dismiss other points of view, if it doesn't fit their agenda. And they few other will join them, and voila. Poster is gone, all alone with her problems...


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> The thing is this is hardly ever done to guys here, we are not convincing them that their perception is wrong. I am not sure why this OP got such backslash here. Some of the people posting are sometimes to know it all, and will easy dismiss other points of view, if it doesn't fit their agenda. And they few other will join them, and voila. Poster is gone, all alone with her problems...


The issue is that a lot of men in particular think that claims of emotional abuse are overused and perhaps they even see themselves in some of the complaints. As such they dismiss it as no big deal. We've even seen many threads where a guy will openly admit that he's treated his wife like crap and he's told that he's not that bad and it's half her fault. People don't seem to be able to admit that maybe he really was that bad in the absence of details that suggest he's not.

Oh, and let's not forget that it doesn't matter how poorly she's treated...some will still insinuate that there must be another man. I'm pretty sure this OP was asked that as well. Sometimes I think some hope there is another guy...this way they don't actually have to take responsibility for poor treatment and it can turn into a nice trashfest of the wife and victimfest of the husband.

In effect, because emotional abuse can be subjective many insist on projecting their own definition onto others.

Except that the marriage must work for both. This marriage doesn't work for her but it does work for him or he wouldn't be begging to keep it.

And this stuff about her not telling the poor victim spouse......many people do in fact try to communicate their unhappiness. The issue is that for a lot of people they're not that interested as long as the spouse sticks around....that's why they all of a sudden "get it" when the spouse leaves. They're not really that concerned with the spouse as long as THEIR world remains intact. I'm using the terms people and spouse because women do this too. We've seen that too.....women who cut off sex and know very well hubby isn't happy but until he walks she's not that concerned. Yet nobody would accuse a guy in that scenario of sticking around to use her to raise kids and then taking off. He'd have full support to get out and get laid.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> The thing is this is hardly ever done to guys here, we are not convincing them that their perception is wrong. I am not sure why this OP got such backslash here. Some of the people posting are sometimes to know it all, and will easy dismiss other points of view, if it doesn't fit their agenda. And they few other will join them, and voila. Poster is gone, all alone with her problems...


Personal experience tells me this is so not true! And again, I think this is all about perspectives and context. We see what we are looking for and we relate to what we understand from our own personal experiences. I have multiple threads here where I've received huge backlash and been told the problem was mine, not hers. And it may be. It may not be. Where is the truth? So people ask all sorts of painful questions looking for it (truth).

This is not just a "let's go after women because they must have done something wrong to cause the guy to cheat or whatever" thing. It's just a normal and mostly-healthy and self-corrective thing when we have so many voices here.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> *Sadly the fact that OP likely won't return may be an indication that the M circumstances aren't exactly as tragic or horrible as portrayed and OP didn't like the lack of gushing support she felt deserved.*
> 
> Now, if there was cheating a d abuse by H that's a diff story and of course that's terrible.
> 
> ...


I don't think this is true at all...and I can tell you, if it were ME and my posts gave people a negative or false impression of my situation that I was seeking help for...I would scurry back into my shell and not post again. 

Not everyone is brave and outspoken and emotionally strong or armored (like you are) - some of us are hesitant, uncertain, and fearful of showing our whole selves to others (especially after being bullied in relationships) -- so while there is nothing you can say that would change my core belief in myself and my motives and what I know is right for ME, if I perceived you as too harsh in your misunderstanding, I wouldn't have the courage to correct you and especially to give MORE details that could be misunderstood. 

To ME, she sounded like she didn't have much emotional energy for dealing with her situation, so it's very likely that she might not have enough to care about making herself better understood on this site.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

lifeistooshort said:


> In effect, because emotional abuse can be subjective many insist on projecting their own definition onto others.
> 
> Except that the marriage must work for both. This marriage doesn't work for her but it does work for him or he wouldn't be begging to keep it.
> 
> And this stuff about her not telling the poor victim spouse......many people do in fact try to communicate their unhappiness. The issue is that for a lot of people they're not that interested as long as the spouse sticks around....that's why they all of a sudden "get it" when the spouse leaves. They're not really that concerned with the spouse as long as THEIR world remains intact. I'm using the terms people and spouse because women do this too. We've seen that too.....women who cut off sex and know very well hubby isn't happy but until he walks she's not that concerned. Yet nobody would accuse a guy in that scenario of sticking around to use her to raise kids and then taking off. He'd have full support to get out and get laid.


THIS is SO GOOD and (I believe) TRUE!!!!!


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> I don't think this is true at all...and I can tell you, if it were ME and my posts gave people a negative or false impression of my situation that I was seeking help for...I would scurry back into my shell and not post again.
> 
> Not everyone is brave and outspoken and emotionally strong or armored (like you are) - some of us are hesitant, uncertain, and fearful of showing our whole selves to others (especially after being bullied in relationships) -- so while there is nothing you can say that would change my core belief in myself and my motives and what I know is right for ME, if I perceived you as too harsh in your misunderstanding, I wouldn't have the courage to correct you and especially to give MORE details that could be misunderstood.
> 
> To ME, she sounded like she didn't have much emotional energy for dealing with her situation, so it's very likely that she might not have enough to care about making herself better understood on this site.


To ME she sounded like she was done spending what little emotional energy she had left, on a guy who didn't care to change until it was too late. 

To ME, from what's been written, from personal experience as well, most who post here had lurked previously and have some idea of what to expect from the TAM jury. 

To ME, one of the best things about coming to a place like TAM is the hugely-differing opinions you'll see on how to view a given situation. TAM is _not_ a site with a strict agenda, as some others are. There may be other sites that would be a better match for someone looking only for support for a decision they've already made. TAM may still serve that person what they're looking for though, confirmation they've got everything in a good place, by picking and choosing who to listen to. It's that f'in real-world thing, y'know? We're it. The good, the bad, the ugly. But the value is in not seeing it as the good, the bad, the ugly. The value is in seeing your situation through someone else's eyes. 

OK, for anyone concerned about OPs state of mind and wants to put a friendly voice out there to her, you have the option to send her a private message. She hasn't abandoned TAM; her statistics say she was here 3 hours ago.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Goes to show if you want good advice you need to give all the details,you can only give advice from the information you are given.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

We may never know the outcome.

I hope she finds what helps.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> *To ME, from what's been written, from personal experience as well, most who post here had lurked previously and have some idea of what to expect from the TAM jury.*


YES, my dear CO, this is VERY true!!! 

You have stated exactly why some of us would LIKE to get some input and ideas of how to handle our situations, but choose NOT TO...because we know what to expect, and aren't sure if we can handle it...

I just never want to be the person who makes someone else feel that way...it's not ME. 
If it's YOU, that's fine too!! (but I don't think it's YOU either!  )


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Casual Observer said:


> *This is not just a "let's go after women because they must have done something wrong to cause the guy to cheat or whatever" thing*. It's just a normal and mostly-healthy and self-corrective thing when we have so many voices here.


Really? Then why did different male posters ask her: Was he a _serial_ cheater; _When_ did he cheat; How did you find out; What were the _reasons_ he gave; Did he have an epiphany & stop?

If you can't see that these questions point to an agenda of let the poor sob off the hook, then I don't know what to tell you because they are totally irrelevant. 

It isn't normal and it isn't healthy to encourage people to overlook bad behavior. All that begets is more bad behavior.

I see a lot of word salad being spewed and think it is an attempt to save face for being insensitive to the OP.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> We may never know the outcome.
> 
> I hope she finds what helps.





LisaDiane said:


> YES, my dear CO, this is VERY true!!!
> 
> You have stated exactly why some of us would LIKE to get some input and ideas of how to handle our situations, but choose NOT TO...because we know what to expect, and aren't sure if we can handle it...
> 
> ...


I think, in our own way,* each*_* of us*_ are trying to find a way to connect with @Sunshine66 so we better understand her, and she better understands us. It's easy to say that we're here just for her, that we'll support her in whatever she chooses, but... this isn't "talkaboutYOURlife.com" it's "talkaboutMARRIAGE.com" and marriage is, by all definitions, between two people. To say that just one person's viewpoint, dismissing the person who isn't here, is all that's relevant... that is the end game, not the marriage. 

In the end, or really the beginning, there must be an abundance of respect for the views and feelings of those who make the original post. As well as those who reply.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> Really? Then why did different male posters ask her: Was he a _serial_ cheater; _When_ did he cheat; How did you find out; What were the _reasons_ he gave; Did he have an epiphany & stop?
> 
> If you can't see that these questions point to an agenda of let the poor sob off the hook, then I don't know what to tell you because they are totally irrelevant.
> 
> ...


There is another way of looking at this. Trying to HELP @Sunshine66 realize just what an awful person her husband was (and/or offer her support for that), and that she was justifiable in leaving ages ago. Helping her build the image of her husband as the train wreck that he is. That it was OP that was overlooking bad behavior, because she was a victim of an abusive marriage that left her without the energy to find her way out.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Nice spin. But, please, just stop.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> I think, in our own way,* each*_* of us*_ are trying to find a way to connect with @Sunshine66 so we better understand her, and she better understands us. It's easy to say that we're here just for her, that we'll support her in whatever she chooses, but... this isn't "talkaboutYOURlife.com" it's "talkaboutMARRIAGE.com" and marriage is, by all definitions, between two people. To say that just one person's viewpoint, dismissing the person who isn't here, is all that's relevant... that is the end game, not the marriage.
> 
> In the end, or really the beginning, there must be an abundance of respect for the views and feelings of those who make the original post. As well as those who reply.


This is a GREAT point!!!! I agree with you!!!

And MY contribution will many times be to challenge any viewpoints I think are too harsh or inequitable...just because I love you all...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Just for review; what are the differentiators between this thread, and this one Intimacy Anorexia ?

There are some, obviously, and there are similarities. 

If OP hasn't read the reference thread, there are bits of information that may be helpful. 

Just as discussion.


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