# I'm not a monster



## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

I've been an on-and-off poster around TAM for the last year or so. A few months back I got ashamed of myself for hanging around here when I wasn't doing anything to solve my own problems with my failing marriage (see my long posts from last March and July). A month ago I finally snapped when I got home from work and my wife said she was going to take our kid (technically hers, I'm the stepdad) and move to Tucson (a city she's never been to before, and where she doesn't know anyone) because there wasn't enough money in the bank account and I "refused to realize it" (it was the first of the month, my paycheck was being deposited later in the day, and wife hasn't had a job in 3 years because she's "not the kind of person who can do things on someone else's schedule"). She was going to leave the following morning and claimed I'd never see either of them again.

So I got an attorney and filed for divorce.

My wife has been calling me abusive. I definitely don't communicate in a way she can relate to. When I'm angry, I speak tersely. I might yell. I might bring up things she did in the past that aren't exactly relevant. I can be cold. I've had precisely zero sexual desire for quite a while now. But I don't scream, make threats to leave or do anything with our kid, insult her family, throw things, hit people. All of these are things she's done. 

She says "those are things that people do when they're emotional, and you're trying to torture me for having emotions". She also says that my getting an attorney instead of doing all the paperwork myself is "bad faith" and "proof" that I'm going to screw her out of everything. She says that now that she'll be a single mom, our daughter (12) is going to be permanently messed up and it's entirely my fault. She says I not only destroyed her but our kid. Daughter looked me in the eyes yesterday and said she never wants to see me again. I raised her from age 2, helped her with homework, taught her to ride a bike, did all kinds of fun stuff with her growing up. Now she wants me dead (said so in a text).

I don't know if I'm an abuser or not, but I definitely feel like one now that my wife and kid want me dead. More generally, I feel like a horrible person all around. She's right, I did destroy their lives...if I'd put up with it longer they could keep on doing what they do. I don't really have friends or a social life, so my work and my family are all I have. My wife just told me over the phone that I was going to fail in my career just like I failed at being a husband-dad. And I did fail. I always thought of men who divorce their wives as shallow scumbags who just want a younger woman (and I think this is a pretty common interpretation). But I don't want anyone and have nobody else on the side (my wife, I can't resist pointing out, slept with a friend of hers half her age within a week of being served).

I don't know what the point of this post was. I feel like an abuser and a greedy scumbag. I can't be, though. I'm a guy who can't deal with his wife's emotional baggage that she refuses to do anything about. That's not an abuser, is it? Except it's going to cost me my family. Wife had threatened me before with never letting me see my kid again if I leave. Looks like she is serious.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

I am sorry you are going through this. I know little about stepchildren, but did you legally adopt your daughter?


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

No. She really can take her away. Which seems to be what they both want.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I remember you and I am sorry you're here again. 

I don't think you're a monster. ....as I recall though you're not really a family man. You don't have sex with your wife, you're cold/detached/nasty to her, you made a move she didn't want and you just want to focus on your career.

I honestly don't get why you even want to be married. What do you get out of it? 

Your wife went off the deep end, maybe partly due to the fact that she doesn't have any kind of connection with her hb.

Your wife will need to get a job but that's not your problem. 

Maybe you'd both be better off if you called it a day. 

Fyi, I'm from the Phoenix area. Tucson is a little podunk for me but it's a nice enough city.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Good riddance man. She did you a favor, look at the positivies. You can start your life over and be happy for once. 

Start working out and eating healthy. No soda. Drink only water and iced tea and 1 cup of coffee a day. Tons of water. Lots of lein protein and veggies/fruits. Start lifting weights 3-4 days a week. Take a good multi-vitamin. Time to take care of yourself. It's what I did 3 months ago and at 35 I'm in the best shape of my life (I was cut back in college too). 

Not sure how old you are, but guys in 30/40s are in their prime and can find a great lady again. I've been dating an amazing woman for 6 weeks now and haven't been this frickn' happy in like forever. I'm not even divorced yet, didn't waste any time. Life is short and not guaranteed.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Sorry man. Pretty much agree with 
[MENTION=143458]lifeistooshort
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

I get it, I'm not marriage material. Guilty. Why does that mean I should never get to see my kid again, ever? Unless I'm a monster.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Of course not, it's an unfortunate reality when dealing with stepkids and the marriage doesn't work. 

Maybe you can be in touch via social media. 

It's not a crime to not be marriage material, you just need to recognize it. Maybe down the road you will be.

Or maybe this one is not a good match for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

Well, I don't plan on getting married again anyway. I just want to not feel like an evil monster. My wife has told me that I'm the most evil person she's ever met, that I've singlehandedly destroyed her and our kid, that it's entirely my fault that she threatens to move out, that it's my fault she's hit her daughter, it's my fault she's been hanging around with a younger guy. She was such a nice person before we moved here that I can only agree with her. I haven't been supportive and I did this.

It's true that she's not mentally stable (this morning she asked me to call my mom and have her write a check to wife for half the value of the equity in our house...as if my elderly mother has $35k just lying around). She also has forbidden me to come home, which I know legally she can't do but I'm not going to fight on this one. But I should have found a way to help her with that better, rather than talking to her calmly and saying specifically where I disagree with her (she sees that as condescending and snide). It is my fault, basically.

The title of this thread should have been "I'm not a monster, or am I?", I guess.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Your wife sounds abusive, to be honest. To you and her kid. You're not perfect, no one is...but she sounds emotionally and physically abusive. Hitting? Throwing things? 

Her need to put you down, insult you, and make you take the blame for everything, is part of what abusers do. I will pray that you find a way out of this, and heal. 

The entire marriage isn't your fault. The sooner you get away from her toxic messages, the better off you'll be.


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> Your wife sounds abusive, to be honest. To you and her kid. You're not perfect, no one is...but she sounds emotionally and physically abusive. Hitting? Throwing things?


She says I'm the abuser because I won't let her react emotionally to things (her words, approximately). She says I hold it against her forever instead of letting things go. It's true that I remember many specific things she's done, and that they still bother me. The worst was when she slapped our kid across the face and called her a "c---", right in front of me, because she was whining about her homework. She later said that was a bad moment for her and she shouldn't have done it, but she never did things like that until I started being mean to her (by which she means when I got upset about her leaving me when I couldn't find a house that met her standards...see my very first post here from last year). They're usually not that bad, but they do usually involve her finding something unexpected (e.g. too little money in the checking account, a negative comment on FB), panicking, and either reacting physically or jumping in the car and leaving home "because I need to be somewhere else". I try and calm her down by means that, to me, seem gentle, and that just makes her angrier and angrier until I do snap and say something hurtful (and it doesn't take much to hurt her..."you're being childish" is something I've said that she will never, ever forgive me for).

Who's the abuser? I don't know.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

LaundryMan said:


> She says I'm the abuser because I won't let her react emotionally to things (her words, approximately). She says I hold it against her forever instead of letting things go. It's true that I remember many specific things she's done. The worst was when she slapped our kid across the face and called her a "c---", right in front of me, because she was whining about her homework. She later said that was a bad moment for her and she shouldn't have done it, but she never did things like that until I started being mean to her (by which she means when I got upset about her leaving me when I couldn't find a house that met her standards...see my very first post here from last year). They're usually not that bad, but they do usually involve her finding something unexpected (e.g. too little money in the checking account, a negative comment on FB), panicking, and either reacting physically or jumping in the car and leaving home "because I need to be somewhere else". I try and calm her down by means that, to me, seem gentle, and that just makes her angrier and angrier until I do snap and say something hurtful (and it doesn't take much to hurt her..."you're being childish" is something I've said that she will never, ever forgive me for).
> 
> Who's the abuser? I don't know.


I think that what you're in, is a toxic relationship and environment, and it's incredibly unhealthy...for everyone. I don't know her, but she sounds abusive from what you're posting. An abuser with excuses as to why they abuse, say it ain't so lol I highly HIGHLY recommend you get out of this mess. Part of the abuse cycle, is being conditioned to accepting blame when the abuser blames you. Your relationship is not normal, it's not healthy, and it will ruin your whole life, if you let it.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

You're not a monster, you and your wife are incompatible. When a relationship gets bad people can go off the deep end. 

The move was not good for her but at this point what does it matter? Do you want to be married to her? Seeing your stepdaughter is not a good reason stay in a marriage that isn't working.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

It also sounds like she's trying to control or manipulate you. And I doubt she expected you to respond so firmly and swiftly, and now she's scared.


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## wistful_thinking (Jan 21, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> LaundryMan said:
> 
> 
> > She says I'm the abuser because I won't let her react emotionally to things (her words, approximately). She says I hold it against her forever instead of letting things go. It's true that I remember many specific things she's done. The worst was when she slapped our kid across the face and called her a "c---", right in front of me, because she was whining about her homework. She later said that was a bad moment for her and she shouldn't have done it, but she never did things like that until I started being mean to her (by which she means when I got upset about her leaving me when I couldn't find a house that met her standards...see my very first post here from last year). They're usually not that bad, but they do usually involve her finding something unexpected (e.g. too little money in the checking account, a negative comment on FB), panicking, and either reacting physically or jumping in the car and leaving home "because I need to be somewhere else". I try and calm her down by means that, to me, seem gentle, and that just makes her angrier and angrier until I do snap and say something hurtful (and it doesn't take much to hurt her..."you're being childish" is something I've said that she will never, ever forgive me for).
> ...


She sounds so abusive. Read CODEPENDENT NO MORE. Please, please, please. Did you go through a bad childhood? You need to take care of you.


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

wistful_thinking said:


> She sounds so abusive. Read CODEPENDENT NO MORE. Please, please, please. Did you go through a bad childhood? You need to take care of you.


No, but she did. Anyway, I don't think I'm codependent because I made the decision to leave her and I'm not backing away, even though she kept saying things to try and get me to stay. Once I finally made it clear to her that I'm not changing my mind, she went full-on vengeful and said she was going to make me give her everything and that I would never see her or our kid ever again (her last words to me this morning were "say goodbye to [daughter] because you'll never see her again"). 

She can't deal with the abandonment issues of her past (and doesn't want to, she thinks it's normal and the rest of us need to just fall in line). And I can't deal with having to walk on eggshells at all hours of the day and night to avoid setting her off. It's gotten to the point where just seeing or speaking to me is a trigger for her. I don't understand why, but I never had the problems she did.

I'm going to lose my family, my house, my money, everything. Except my job. Which she says I'm going to lose because I'm a failure at everything.

She did let me come home today to get my phone charger and some clothes (I'm sleeping at my work tonight). Daughter was there and said it was all my fault. I just told her that I love her more than anyone and I want to make her mom as comfortable as possible. I don't know what else to say. I'd rather have her hate me than hate both of us.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

LM, I encourage you to seriously consider the advice given to you a year ago by @*Turnera*. Her 3/19/15 post states that _"your wife has emotional issues, probably bipolar or BPD or something similar."_ I agree with *Turnera* that the behaviors you describe -- i.e., "explosive temper," "unstable," "ungrateful spoiled brat," "ALWAYS angry about something," very controlling, "hits people," and always being "The Victim" -- are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).

Importantly, I'm not suggesting your W has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it. I caution that BPD is not something a person "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your exGF exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, and temper tantrums.

Another important issue is how persistent your W's BPD traits have been. Your comment that "she has always had a short fuse" suggests that these traits have been persistent, as would be expected if she has a lifetime problem with BPD that originated in childhood. Yet, if you really did not see many BPD red flags in the first 5 years of your marriage (i.e., before the move), the absence of persistence would suggest she may be experiencing a flareup of her BPD traits due, perhaps, to a hormone problem.



LaundryMan said:


> "You're being childish" is something I've said that she will never, ever forgive me for....


If your W's BPD traits have been strong and persistent throughout your marriage, this "childish" behavior is exactly what you should expect. BPDers (i.e., those having strong and persistent traits) typically experienced a trauma in early childhood that froze their emotional development at the level of a four year old. 

The result is that they lack the emotional skills needed to control their own emotions. Hence, they exhibit the instability and lack of impulse control that are so characteristic of a young child. Indeed, this childishness is also part of their charm because, when they are being good to you, they will exhibit a warmth and emotional purity that otherwise is seen only in children.



> She says I'm the abuser because I won't let her react emotionally to things (her words, approximately). She says I hold it against her forever instead of letting things go.


Again, if she exhibits strong BPD traits, this claim is to be expected. My BPDer exW, for example, frequently was creating an ugly fight and then accusing me of "refusing to let go of a grudge" because it would take me several days -- at least -- to get the ugliness out of my mind.

In contrast, a BPDer doesn't have to wait days or weeks to change her feelings. Instead, the change typically will occur in ten seconds -- as though a switch has been flipped in her head. This rapid flipping -- back and forth between loving you and hating you -- occurs because the BPDer is too immature to be able to handle strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, or other grey areas of interpersonal relationships. 

This is why BPDers, like young children, rapidly flip between the polar extremes of emotions. Even when you have to wait a week for the flip to occur, it will occur almost instantaneously when it happens. This type of immature behavior is called "black-white thinking." 

If your W is doing this, it will be evident in the way she frequently makes all-or-nothing statements such as "You ALWAYS..." or "You NEVER...." It also would be evident in the way she categorizes everyone as "with her" (i.e., "all good") or "against her" (i.e., "all bad"). Moreover, you likely would see her recategorizing someone from one polar extreme to the other -- in just a few seconds -- based solely on a minor comment or action. This is why BPDers typically have no long-term close friends (unless the friend lives a long distance away).



> I try and calm her down by means that, to me, seem gentle....


Again, if she has strong BPD traits, this need for "calming" is to be expected. Like a young child, a BPDer lacks the ability to do self calming or to regulate her own emotions.



> The homeschool-van scenario frightens me.... but if it really happened it would last about a week. My wife gets ideas like this all the time, then abandons them when reality sets in.


Because BPDers have a weak and unstable self identity, they have a very fragile and unstable sense of who they really are. One result of lacking a strong self identity is that they have nothing to center them and ground them. This is why BPDers tend to get very excited about new activities or new religions and then, after several months, completely abandon that activity or goal.

And this is why a BPDer seeks out a partner having a strong personality that will provide her with the missing self identity and sense of direction. But, sadly, when you provide a BPDer with EXACTLY those things she so sorely wants and needs, she will quickly start feeling like you are trying to control and suffocate her. 

Because those engulfment feelings occur subconsciously, the BPDer will _consciously_ believe that you really are trying to control her. She therefore will start one fight after another -- over absolutely nothing at all -- in order to push you away and give her breathing space.



> [She told me] "you're a monster...I'm the real victim."[Your 3/20/15 post.]


As I noted above, BPDers have a very weak and fragile sense of self identity. To the extent they have any persistent self image at all, it is the false self image of being "The Victim," always "The Victim." Because that is the closest thing to a lasting self image a BPDer has, she will keep a death grip on it, refusing to let it go. 

Hence, if your W really does have strong BPD traits, she would allow you to remain in the marriage only as long as you continued to "validate" that false self image on a regular basis. When she was splitting you white (as during the courtship period), you accomplished this by playing the role of "the savior" -- a role that implies she must be "the victim" or you wouldn't be trying so hard to save her from unhappiness.

Yet, when she started splitting you black, the only way you could "validate" her false self image was to play the role of being "the perpetrator," i.e., the cause of her every misfortune. Once you stop playing that role -- i.e., once you stop walking on eggshells and start standing up for yourself -- a BPDer typically will walk away from the marriage.



> I feel like a horrible person all around


If you really have been living with a BPDer for 8 years, consider yourself lucky that you only feel "like a horrible person." Most spouses in that situation feel like they are going crazy. Of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused spouses and partners feel like they may be losing their minds. Indeed, therapists see far more of those folks coming in (to find out if they are going crazy) than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

This "crazy making" behavior of BPDers is so well known that the "Nons" (i.e., nonBPD partners) have given it a name: gaslighting. It is named after the classic 1944 movie "Gaslight," in which a husband (Charles Boyer) tries to drive his new bride (Ingrid Bergman) crazy so as to get her institutionalized, allowing him to run off with her family jewels. One of his many tricks is to turn the home's gas lights down a tiny bit every day -- all the while claiming that he is able to see and read just fine.

Actually, the vast majority of the crazy making behavior of BPDers is not intended to make you feel crazy. Rather, it is the result of their subconscious minds protecting their fragile egos by projecting all their mistakes, painful feelings, and shortcomings onto their spouses. 

The beauty of projection -- and the reason that BPDers rely on it so heavily -- is that it occurs entirely at the subconscious level, allowing the BPDers to be adamantly convinced the projections are true. Hence, unlike lies (which BPDers will do when trapped), the projections are entirely guilt free -- an important attribute to folks who are filled with so much self loathing that guilt is a very painful experience.

I mention all of this to explain why it is so confusing and disorienting to live with a BPDer. Namely, the confusion largely arises because the BPDer spouses sincerely believe the outrageous accusations coming out of their mouths. The nonBPD spouses therefore are left thinking that they must have done something wrong to cause their spouses to be so upset.



> Who's the abuser? I don't know.


My advice, LM, is to see a psychologist -- for a visit or two _all by yourself_ -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your stepdaughter are dealing with. I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you read about BPD warning signs to see if they seem to apply.

An easy place to start reading is my list of red flags at _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most of those signs sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings any bells, I would be glad to join *Turnera* and the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, LM.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cue @Uptown in 3... 2... 1...

Edit: ROFL, you are on it brother. I should have read it all before tagging you.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

Uptown, thanks for your comments. I have considered the BPD possibility, but I never took it especially seriously. In college I dated a girl (briefly!) who was a classic textbook BPD case almost to the point of caricature. Since my wife isn't much like her I discounted the possibility.

My STBXW did have a very traumatic event in her past when she was about 12-13 (our daughter's age). So I started thinking that PTSD was a more likely diagnosis. Or maybe there are elements of both. There are certain things that trigger her, which is common in PTSD. And she categorically refuses to talk about the events of her past. That's ultimately what makes me feel at least a little justified in leaving her. It's not her fault that this awful stuff happened to her, it's her fault that she refuses to do anything about it and refuses to admit that it's not reasonable to expect everyone in the world to accommodate her, to make sure she never, ever gets put in a situation that sets her off. She would disagree that she refuses to do anything, of course, but setting the record straight on that is a topic for another thread.

I do see a psychiatrist (not really therapy, I know). I've been taking antidepressants my whole adult life, but last summer my wife insisted I actually start making regular appointments with a psychiatrist. I did that, and then she moved the goalposts, saying that I wasn't seeing a "competent" psychiatrist because she (the shrink) wouldn't "give me an honest diagnosis" (autism, schizophrenia, or any of the other things she's accused me of having). My shrink finally met my wife last session (my wife came with me an ranted for an hour about everything I've ever done to wrong her), so I'll see what the Dr. thinks next time I go in.

I have to admit I'm not very good in therapy because I don't trust mental health professionals. The entire philosophy of mental health care is that the patient's thoughts are wrong in some way. If they were right, they wouldn't be a patient. This is why it's hard for me to believe I'm not an abuser. Especially since all my wife's friends and family now think I'm an abuser, and she has a lot more friends and family than I do.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I would urge you not to write off a good mental health professionals potential contribution to you. I tend to think like you in this regard but we're both wrong. 

To assume thoughts are either right or wrong is narrow minded and unproductive. True they are your view but they can be misguided and unproductive. ....many things are not black or white but grey. I'm learning a lot about myself from TAM and an starting to think I could benefit from talking to someone as well. 

I get the impression that in your mind it's either you or your wife that has issues, but it sounds to me like you both do. Do not assume that because she has issues that means you don't. 

Since you can't control her, you can only look after you. Are you abusive? We can't tell from the little we've gotten from you but you owe it to yourself to consider it..... this will make you a better person. 

You guys have a toxic dynamic and might very well bring out the worst of each other.

But do yourself a big favor and explore your own issues regardless of your wife's issues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I remember you Laundry Man... don't buy her delusional blameshifting.


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

I agree, if I am an abuser then I need to do something about it. So I will ask my psychiatrist about it point-blank, though I don't know if she's equipped to spot it.

Part of the problem is that people tend to believe that someone is an abuser once and for all. Once you abuse, that's it, you're an evil monster forever, you can never be redeemed or helped, you will only do it again because you're sub-human. My wife told me herself nobody else would ever tolerate me. Here at TAM I see people posting all the time things to the effect of "if he did it once, he WILL do it again". If I'm an abuser my life is over, it's that simple, right?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LaundryMan said:


> I agree, if I am an abuser then I need to do something about it. So I will ask my psychiatrist about it point-blank, though I don't know if she's equipped to spot it.
> 
> Part of the problem is that people tend to believe that someone is an abuser once and for all. Once you abuse, that's it, you're an evil monster forever, you can never be redeemed or helped, you will only do it again because you're sub-human. My wife told me herself nobody else would ever tolerate me. Here at TAM I see people posting all the time things to the effect of "if he did it once, he WILL do it again". *If I'm an abuser my life is over, it's that simple, right*?


no


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I am sorry this is such a difficult breakup. It will probably be until you are officially divorce and things are divided.

Your attorney should help you freeze assets and put together an agreement (perhaps via mediation) that will be divided in a way in which no person is left "with nothing." Don't listen to your wife, listen to the people that know and work in the business.

She is angry and will tell you untrue/toxic things in order to manipulate. The less you hear and are around her the better.

Your daughter (step)....it doesn't appear that there is nothing much to do. However, allow her to see you in a place of dignity and respect in regards to her and her mother. She knows that kind of father you are...but she is being fed information via her mother. Write her a letter and express your feelings towards her. Keep in simple and loving. She will decide later if she wants a relationship. She is almost a teen and will have opportunities to connect in some way.


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

Corpuswife said:


> Your daughter (step)....it doesn't appear that there is nothing much to do. However, allow her to see you in a place of dignity and respect in regards to her and her mother. She knows that kind of father you are...but she is being fed information via her mother. Write her a letter and express your feelings towards her. Keep in simple and loving. She will decide later if she wants a relationship. She is almost a teen and will have opportunities to connect in some way.


This is what I had planned on doing. I'm not sure that she will want to, though. She told me she hates me. I told her I love her and she said what her mom always says: "if you loved us you wouldn't be doing this." I'm losing her, I just have to face it.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Hmm, I think a competent mental health expert would be more like a guide or teacher to learn healthier behavior and coping mechanisms.

The aim should be a healthier mental state, and behavior, not telling you that you are wrong, but give you more options to choose from.

By the way, your wife deflects her issues and focuses on you whether her issues are real or not. It helps take away the lense from focusing on her. It is her way of avoiding herself and the problems she brings.


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## Why Not Be Happy? (Apr 16, 2010)

Do not leave your house. If your wife is moving anyways----tell her to pack and go now.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LaundryMan said:


> I have to admit I'm not very good in therapy because I don't trust mental health professionals. The entire philosophy of mental health care is that the patient's thoughts are wrong in some way. If they were right, they wouldn't be a patient.


That's ridiculous. I can't believe you seriously think that.

Do some more reading about psychologists and therapy; you'd understand that they don't judge their patients. They don't think people are 'defective.' They DO understand - through up to 10 years of schooling - that what happens to you in your childhood has massive effects on who you become as an adult, and since every person has grown up in a completely different 'childhood' than every single other person, each patient should be helped with completely unique responses. 

My DD25 is a grad student for psychology and the things she tells me that she's learning about are amazing, and I can see all the myriad ways a therapist can help a patient come up with solutions to what's bothering them.

Go find one. Psychiatrists are NOT therapists, so ask him/her for a recommendation for a good psychologist. Not because there's something 'wrong' with you but because that person will help you come to grips with what happened to you in this marriage because of your WIFE'S mental issues. It will help you understand that you're not a monster, it will help you find short-term solutions for dealing with this, maybe even give you suggestions on how to move forward with your stepdaughter, so that you all end up with the best possible solution.

But, so you know, your wife almost surely has BPD and it's almost impossible to safely live with such a person; this relationship was doomed to fail. But if you WERE to decide to try to keep it, a psychologist would be your best bet on teaching you how to deal with her issues so that everyone turns out ok. It's what they are educated in; they are the expert; let them help you.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

turnera said:


> That's ridiculous. I can't believe you seriously think that.
> 
> Do some more reading about psychologists and therapy; you'd understand that they don't judge their patients. They don't think people are 'defective.' They DO understand - through up to 10 years of schooling - that what happens to you in your childhood has massive effects on who you become as an adult, and since every person has grown up in a completely different 'childhood' than every single other person, each patient should be helped with completely unique responses.
> 
> ...



Thank you!! 

Read up on this Laundry Man, I think you will spot some patterns....

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/319418-abuse-thread.html

and 

Out of the FOG


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

OP, have you taken to recording your interactions with your W? If not, you need to be doing that. She is classic in her abuse. It's likely she'll keep upping the ante until you react. 

Just get a cheap GoPro or put a VAR on you, and keep it on whenever you know you'll be around her. 

Move back into your home. If your stepdaughter tells you she hates you and wants you dead, just tell her you're sorry she feels that way, that you love her, always will, and that if things ever get bad with her mom she always has a home with you. Turn the tables on psycho wife here.

If your W threatens to leave, just say "Ok." Short, one or two word responses. Don't engage her. Take copies of her threatening you, back them up to a thumb drive / gmail account, and give copies to your attorney. Her threatening you may cost her in a divorce. Most judges don't appreciate it when someone acts like she is.

As to your concern over being a monster... did you grow up in an abusive family? You sound like it. Or maybe it's just the years of being in this abusive M. You need to see a psychologist, and straighten your line of thinking out.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

LaundryMan said:


> I agree, if I am an abuser then I need to do something about it. So I will ask my psychiatrist about it point-blank, though I don't know if she's equipped to spot it.
> 
> Part of the problem is that people tend to believe that someone is an abuser once and for all. Once you abuse, that's it, you're an evil monster forever, you can never be redeemed or helped, you will only do it again because you're sub-human. My wife told me herself nobody else would ever tolerate me. Here at TAM I see people posting all the time things to the effect of "if he did it once, he WILL do it again". If I'm an abuser my life is over, it's that simple, right?


People who are abusers and monsters don't seek help and enlightenment in support groups (at least not of their own accord). They think they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. You are here, you are second-guessing yourself and all your past actions - therefore you are not an abuser.

Your wife sounds pretty messed up, and certainly not a qualified person to judge your sanity and personality herself. Don't believe a word she says, as it's only designed to hurt you the way she feels like she's been hurt (whether by you or by someone long ago in her childhood) instead of being a reflection of any truth.

As for your step-daughter, that's a very sad situation, if you haven't adopted her legally. Just tell her goodbye, that you do love her but you can't do anything to stop her mother from moving away, you're sorry things didn't work out with her mother, and that you're there for her any time she needs to reach out.

Remember, this poor child is just parroting what her mother has told her and has no true understanding of the situation. That doesn't make the words truth when they comes out of her mouth either.


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

So, in the last 24 hours, I've driven 7 hours to my dad's house, where I'm staying now (I had been planning on doing this anyway, since my dad is very very sick and I work at a university, where we're on spring break so there's nothing for me to do at work anyway). 

My wife is now saying that daughter is threatening suicide, yet she explicitly forbids me from calling or texting her. I don't know what to do here. On the one hand, this is not consistent with how my kid was acting the last time I saw her (she and some friends were baking cookies for a bake sale). On the other hand, it's entirely possible she acts differently when I'm not around, since she doesn't want to talk to me anymore and when I hugged her goodbye she said "it's all your fault", then went back to baking cookies.

What should I do? I could never live with myself on the 0.001% chance that something awful happened. Yet I don't put it past my wife to make stuff up (or exaggerate) to get me to cancel the divorce process. My wife and I talked on the phone until my battery died this afternoon...she's in a panic about getting mental health help because she's afraid doing so would increase her premiums (due to a pre-existing condition) when our divorce is final and she's off my insurance. I told her not to worry about that and she flipped out and shrieked at me about how she'll never be able to afford insurance, etc. I just don't know what to do now.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Given her history I feel it is likely total manipulation. 

Have you considered sending the cops to check on your daughter? If that info is in a text, dont delete it.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

LaundryMan said:


> So, in the last 24 hours, I've driven 7 hours to my dad's house, where I'm staying now (I had been planning on doing this anyway, since my dad is very very sick and I work at a university, where we're on spring break so there's nothing for me to do at work anyway).
> 
> My wife is now saying that daughter is threatening suicide, yet she explicitly forbids me from calling or texting her. I don't know what to do here. On the one hand, this is not consistent with how my kid was acting the last time I saw her (she and some friends were baking cookies for a bake sale). On the other hand, it's entirely possible she acts differently when I'm not around, since she doesn't want to talk to me anymore and when I hugged her goodbye she said "it's all your fault", then went back to baking cookies.
> 
> What should I do? I could never live with myself on the 0.001% chance that something awful happened. Yet I don't put it past my wife to make stuff up (or exaggerate) to get me to cancel the divorce process. My wife and I talked on the phone until my battery died this afternoon...she's in a panic about getting mental health help because she's afraid doing so would increase her premiums (due to a pre-existing condition) when our divorce is final and she's off my insurance. I told her not to worry about that and she flipped out and shrieked at me about how she'll never be able to afford insurance, etc. I just don't know what to do now.


My gut feeling tells me she is lying about her daughter being suicidal. This woman sounds dangerous and unstable. She really is not a fit parent, this goes way beyond you and her, at this point.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> My gut feeling tells me she is lying about her daughter being suicidal. This woman sounds dangerous and unstable. She really is not a fit parent, this goes way beyond you and her, at this point.


Unstable is an understatement D, checkout his first thread about her.


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Given her history I feel it is likely total manipulation.
> 
> Have you considered sending the cops to check on your daughter? If that info is in a text, dont delete it.


No, that was over the phone (voice). I'm 7 hours away from her, so if I called 911 they would have to connect me to my home town. My wife just texted my dad telling him to tell me to call her, which I did, and she gave some hints that she's thinking about suicide ("I've seen enough of this life", etc.). I made her promise that she would call me any time tonight if she didn't think she could go on.

The plan right now is she and daughter will go to her parents house (1100 miles away, a 2 day drive) Saturday morning. She says she can't stand being in our house because it reminds her of me. I said she can last another 36 hours. She said no way.

I just don't know what to do here. She wants me to feel like this is all my fault. And it is all my fault.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Unhinged people will do that - force all the fault on someone else. That way they don't have to look at themselves. Call 911 and tell them that your wife has claimed that she AND her daughter are now discussing suicide and you're 7 hours away. She will get a visit from a police officer, checking on her, and she will then think twice before trying that again on you.


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

So she's finally up at her parents and making posts about our divorce agreement all over FB, but she refused to send me a three-word text telling me she arrived safely because I "gave up the right to be concerned about her" when I filed for divorce. Friends and family are congratulating her for leaving an abuser, even though she's spent the last month begging me to reconsider the divorce and saying "why do you have to keep abusing me?" every time I said no.

In the past she's told me that no other woman would ever want me because I'm so unpleasant, cold, and mentally unstable. Seems like she's trying to force that to become true, via FB.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

She is trying to put you beneath her. She knows her behavior was deplorable. Stay off Facebook and detach from that toxicity. Keep yourself with healthy people


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

LaundryMan said:


> So she's finally up at her parents and making posts about our divorce agreement all over FB, but she refused to send me a three-word text telling me she arrived safely because I "gave up the right to be concerned about her" when I filed for divorce. Friends and family are congratulating her for leaving an abuser, even though she's spent the last month begging me to reconsider the divorce and saying "why do you have to keep abusing me?" every time I said no.
> 
> In the past she's told me that no other woman would ever want me because I'm so unpleasant, cold, and mentally unstable. Seems like she's trying to force that to become true, via FB.


I'm sorry to hear that. The good news is that she's left. Move back home if you haven't already. If she's abandoned the marital home, and moved 1100 miles away she's going to have a real hard time taking you to the cleaners. Does spousal abandonment exist in your state?

I hope others looking at this recognize the tremendous importance of exposing the reasons for your divorce (even when it's not infidelity) to everyone you can before the spouse you're divorcing gets the chance. The power of controlling the narrative is a tremendous power in these situations.


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

Kivlor said:


> I hope others looking at this recognize the tremendous importance of exposing the reasons for your divorce (even when it's not infidelity) to everyone you can before the spouse you're divorcing gets the chance. The power of controlling the narrative is a tremendous power in these situations.


Agreed...but I have to say that for someone like me with few friends and little social media presence, this can be a challenge.

But keep in mind her FB posts can be read in one of two ways. They're so hysterical that after the initial shock of reading them wears off you're left wondering just how honest she's being. My attorney says they make her look worse than me, but of course her friends and family won't think that.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Don't believe anything unless it comes from the source.

Talk with your daughter and find out how she's feeling. Is it a crime to contact her to see how she is? No.

Talk less with your STBX. She legitimately feels afraid and like everything is falling apart. She sounds very codependent. Talking only feeds her insecurities. Sometimes life requires a wakeup call and we find ourselves living in an adult world. She needs to learn to feel confident that she can solve her own problems and you need to feel confident that she can and will learn how, for her own good moving forward.

You can't change what she thinks of you, what she says about you, to you or to anyone. You can work on your actual reaction to things and keep your temper. The classic reaction to people that don't want to deal with difficult things is to stonewall and/or to run away. Eventually it catches up to people and they realize that there was nowhere to run or hide. She has the choice of facing reality calmly and with you during this process or totally on her own.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

LaundryMan said:


> Agreed...but I have to say that for someone like me with few friends and little social media presence, this can be a challenge.
> 
> But keep in mind her FB posts can be read in one of two ways. They're so hysterical that after the initial shock of reading them wears off you're left wondering just how honest she's being. My attorney says they make her look worse than me, but of course her friends and family won't think that.


Yeah, and I hope that plays out well for you in the courts. The good news is you didn't have any kids with her, so there won't be a custody battle. The bad news is that you have an "adopted" daughter, that you didn't adopt so you still get all the heartache of losing a kid you raised and no rights to see her; while she runs off to another state and tries to brainwash the kid to hate you. It's probably almost unbearable. 

The real problem is that you didn't sit the daughter down before filing, and say "Ok DD, this is what's happening." But, take heart, not all is lost. She (DD) may come back around in a couple of years, _if that's what you want_. You have to make the effort to reach out and keep channels of communication open if you want that though.

If you want to try to have a relationship with your stepdaughter I'd do the following:

Rule 1: Make sure she has your contact info. FB, phone, etc. 
Rule 2: Do not talk about your STBXW unless DD brings her up.
Rule 3: If DD brings up STBXW or the D, just answer her questions very matter of factly and move on to another subject. Never talk negative about her mom other than "this is what happened" and keep even that to a bare minimum.
Rule 4: Reach out to her from time to time, if she doesn't reach out to you. But not too often. Once a month maybe? Or every couple of months might be better.
Rule 5: Make sure DD knows you're not just moping around, pining for your lost family. Go out, do fun things, and make stories you can talk about. Positive stories and conversations will be much more attractive than all the negativity from her mom.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LaundryMan said:


> Agreed...but I have to say that for someone like me with few friends and little social media presence, this can be a challenge.
> 
> But keep in mind her FB posts can be read in one of two ways. They're so hysterical that after the initial shock of reading them wears off you're left wondering just how honest she's being. My attorney says they make her look worse than me, but *of course her friends and family won't think that*.


Because they are enablers. So, no fret there.:nerd:


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

This is what happens when people are afraid to tell people the truth.

At least now you'll have time to get your own head on straight.


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

turnera said:


> This is what happens when people are afraid to tell people the truth.


I'm not sure what you mean by this. I did tell her (wife) the truth, and she said that I'm being abusive (by telling her she's setting a bad example for her kid, being inconsiderate with her emotional affair that turned into a real affair, etc.).

Agree that this gives me a chance to get myself improved without having to worry about screwing others up, but in this case it's an example of freedom being nothing left to lose.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I was talking about everyone else. She's now being allowed to walk away the 'victim' of 'you.'


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LaundryMan said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by this. I did tell her (wife) the truth, and she said that I'm being abusive (by telling her she's setting a bad example for her kid, being inconsiderate with her emotional affair that turned into a real affair, etc.).
> 
> Agree that this gives me a chance to get myself improved without having to worry about screwing others up, but in this case it's an example of freedom being nothing left to lose.


Accountability is not abuse even if she calls it that. 

Stand in the truth that holding someone accountable for their destructive behavior is in no way shape or form abuse.


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

Sorry to keep bumping my own thread, but there is always more going on. The latest in our saga (now that I'm back in our house, and she's still with her parents) is that she's threatening me with a court order to prevent me from talking to daughter. 

I have tried to contact daughter once and only once in the past ten days, by text (got no reply, and wife apparently doesn't know about this because she said daughter "hasn't mentioned me"). What got me hit with this threat is when I was talking on the phone with wife (who called ME) and as I went to hang up, I told her "tell [daughter] I love her." 

"NO," wife said. "I WON'T tell her that because you DON'T love her. If you did, you wouldn't be doing this."

I told her I thought she was being unreasonable, and she fired back that it's totally reasonable "given the way _'ve treated them", and after a minute of back and forth I snapped and called her lazy, then hung up. IMMEDIATELY I texted her an apology and said I should not have said that, but afterward I got a rambling series of texts over the next two hours, threatening me with a court order and that she would stick me with any legal fees she incurred, and in general talking about how horrible a monster I've been, accusing me of trying to rip her off financially because at one point I'd mentioned opening a checking account of my own (which I'll obviously have to do at some point), calling my behavior "suspicious" and "erratic".

The next day she calmed down a bit and sent a long email not-pology, saying legal action "shouldn't be necessary" but that I needed to understand that it's normal for people to have bad emotional reactions to things, which I clearly don't understand because I'm "sick" (this has become her go-to argument whenever she flips out).

Then this morning I texted her that I needed her to sign our tax returns and I told her about the size of our refunds (which were larger than expected, and that put her in a good mood for about 5 minutes). She started asking me other stuff, but then I texted "I'm going to send you an email later today so watch for that." I then walked away from the phone for a while.

That text, "I'm going to send you an email later today so watch for that", just got me threatened with a court order again. Why? "Clearly you're trying to avoid communication with me. Why can't you just answer my texts?" So now we're back to me getting hit with a court order and legal fees even though daughter was not even mentioned in our text exchange.

If I were the biological dad, I would dare her to get a court order. Since I'm not, I suspect she'd be successful. I don't even know what I did (besides call her lazy, and apologize). And I still feel like a monster._


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Go to Out of the FOG and study. 

She is using her emotions like weapons.

Also the book Emotional Blackmail will give you insight on how to navigate this.

Dont fret the court order. She's full of crap. But keep you nose clean.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Laundry,

You are talking and communicating with her WAY too much.

Is it possible for you to stop?

I had a similar breakup - with stepchildren involved.

Tonight, I'm sitting in my basement and warm and loved, with my wife and stepdaughter on the couch watching television, not more than 15 feet away from my keyboard.

Rule #1 is that you get in control of you.

From what I've read, you aren't close.

You'd be surprised how much time you have to get this right. Everything feels urgent and the floodtide of emotions is simply killing you right now.

Just stop.

Stop everything.

Stop talking. Stop texting. Stop emailing. Stop arguing.

It's time to find out about you. Actually, it's past time.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

LaundryMan said:


> She says I'm the abuser because I won't let her react emotionally to things (her words, approximately). She says I hold it against her forever instead of letting things go. It's true that I remember many specific things she's done, and that they still bother me. The worst was when she slapped our kid across the face and called her a "c---", right in front of me, because she was whining about her homework. She later said that was a bad moment for her and she shouldn't have done it, but she never did things like that until I started being mean to her (by which she means when I got upset about her leaving me when I couldn't find a house that met her standards...see my very first post here from last year). They're usually not that bad, but they do usually involve her finding something unexpected (e.g. too little money in the checking account, a negative comment on FB), panicking, and either reacting physically or jumping in the car and leaving home "because I need to be somewhere else". I try and calm her down by means that, to me, seem gentle, and that just makes her angrier and angrier until I do snap and say something hurtful (and it doesn't take much to hurt her..."you're being childish" is something I've said that she will never, ever forgive me for).
> 
> Who's the abuser? I don't know.


Neither one of you have had the best of behavior and if you look at most marriages when emotions get stressed you will find it typical for one to react to another and for this type of escalating to happen. She is probably right in her feelings as terming you abusive but I think she is down playing her our actions. I hope deep inside she does feel guilt for her actions and is taking a look at them. AS long as you both play this game of reacting you both will remain in this very toxic way of communicating.


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

The thing is, she's the one initiating most of the communication with me. And as much as I want to talk to my kid, I can't decide if it's wise to do that. Supposedly she doesn't want to ever talk to me again. People here have suggested I send a text or FB update every once in a while but I don't know if that's going to be used against me, or what. I just don't know what my wife is going to try next.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

LaundryMan said:


> The thing is, she's the one initiating most of the communication with me. And as much as I want to talk to my kid, I can't decide if it's wise to do that. Supposedly she doesn't want to ever talk to me again. People here have suggested I send a text or FB update every once in a while but I don't know if that's going to be used against me, or what. I just don't know what my wife is going to try next.


And your probably jumping at the chance to respond and communicate. Just because she texts or calls doesn't mean you need to respond. Most of it is probably just her stirring the pot anyway hoping you get yourself in trouble.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

honcho said:


> And your probably jumping at the chance to respond and communicate. Just because she texts or calls doesn't mean you need to respond. Most of it is probably just her stirring the pot anyway hoping you get yourself in trouble.


I'll repeat myself.

Just STOP

My safe man taught me this the hard way. Once I ginned up the stones to "stop", it took my wife 48 hours to decide she was "all in" on reconciliation.

It took me MONTHS to stop the back and forth.

Don't be like me.

Don't be that guy


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

LaundryMan said:


> The thing is, she's the one initiating most of the communication with me. And as much as I want to talk to my kid, I can't decide if it's wise to do that. Supposedly she doesn't want to ever talk to me again. People here have suggested I send a text or FB update every once in a while but I don't know if that's going to be used against me, or what. I just don't know what my wife is going to try next.


If she is the one initiating communication you need to keep yourself disconnected emotionally so that the hostile words don't escalate. She might be hurt she she is taking stabs and then you get offended and respond hurtfully in your defense but this does nothing but cause more hardship. 

Is she going to friends and family and taking little bits of truth and then making her own reality and spreading that??These are the types you have to be careful with. 

Regardless of what she is doing, you really need to keep in touch with your child in some way. Otherwise this child will feel the sense of abandonment from you and that is not a good feeling for children. If this child depended on you and now you are gone, there could be an unsaid "please" within this child that she felt she/he wanted to be saved from the person he/she views as being abused by but children cannot express this.

I say this because my mom was an alcoholic....no doubt she was unhappy with her marriage but there was another element to her behavior. I was close to my dad which I don't think she liked and she took things out on me like I was a unwanted step child when I was actually her first born. The damage this woman did in my life was tremendous and because of the way I lived and what I endured I made some very very poor choices as far as relationships. You do not want this for your child. Step in, be a dad, be that huge support. 

You might have to get real strong here. Tell your wife that you do not want to fight. Think what is best for your child and make that known to your wife.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

STOP CONTACTING HER.

STOP RESPONDING

STOP ESCALATING

It's not that difficult.

Decide to stop - and do it!


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I agree. Don't open yourself up to injury.


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