# How To Respond To This



## Lizlake (Oct 7, 2021)

So my husband (let’s say his name is Dan) got a new job 4 months ago in finance. The job involves lot of meeting clients, so he travels for work about once per month for 4-5 day trips. Some are drivable and some are across the US via plane. His team consists of 8 employees with a female supervisor. Most of thee employees are younger. My husband (Dan) and female supervisor (let’s say her name is Joan) are same age. 

Since Dan started working there, he and Joan have became close. Joan takes Dan out to lunch alone a lot, she brings him gifts to work on occasion. Joan and Dan have had to work late on a recent project as well. I fully have trusted Dan so didn’t worry. When Dan travels, it is usually with a group of 2-3 male coworkers and occasionally another female (Joan never went back then). 

Dan has started acting weird at home. Very critical of me. Very rude. Comes home from work and goes to bed early and blew off celebrating my birthday. I noticed these things over a few months. Things got rough and we spent last Christmas apart because of arguing over the way he had been acting.

After Christmas, he told me he needed to go on a trip to New Mexico and Joan was going (just them two). The client meeting was starting on a Monday at 8am, so without telling me he booked a flight leaving out Sunday at 9am for arrival in NM at 2pm. I thought this was pretty early to fly out there. Joan flew on a separate flight at 7am arriving at noon.

Dan told me he was coming back Thursday (meetings lasted Monday & Tuesday only). I asked why and he said he and Joan wanted to go to some museums and stay an extra nite.

I didn’t like this but said nothing. Dan flew out and I got a text from him two hour later that his flight was cancelled and he was still in the airport. He told me he had to wait for the next flight at 6 PM so he was sitting in the airport all that time and never called me.

finally I got another text from Dan that he was just getting on the plane at 6 PM. It ended up that that particular plane had a problem and had to be diverted to another city causing even more delays. Dan told me that he arrived in New Mexico at midnight and was going to the hotel to go to sleep.

The next day Dan had his client meetings with Joanne and sent me a text at 5 PM that they were going out to eat together at a candlelit restaurant. He texted me pictures of their meals and they had a three hour dinner there with wine. Then they went by a local jazz club and had more drinks. Finally they went back to the hotel where he called me at 11 PM to tell me good night.

The next day their client meeting ended early and they were finished with all of their business parentheses where he could potentially catch a fly and come on home. I told Dan I didn’t think his actions were appropriate with the dinner and drinks with Joan (not to mention same hotel with her). He got pretty mad but was able to leave to fly home early. I told him staying an extra day wasn’t appropriate just to sightsee with Joan.

When he got home, he avoided me and went to bed. Not too happy to see me. I got his phone and saw where he had texted Joan about 50 times while he was having flight problems. She was already out in New Mexico waiting for him and he kept her constantly updated over the course of 6 hours. One of her last texts was at 11:30pm to tell him to let her know when he arrived to the hotel or she would worry. She was waiting up for him. He texted her back to go to bed he’d be fine.

Does this sound appropriate????


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Have you posted this story before? It sounds very familiar.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

I think they're too close, and there are a lot of red flags suggesting at least an emotional affair. You might want to go into investigative mode and forego any direct confrontation. If he thinks you suspect something, he might just take his activities underground.


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## Lizlake (Oct 7, 2021)

No I don’t know what you’re talking about


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Dan and Joan are very close.
They worry about each other. 

This is an emotional affair they are having.

And, they are actively dating each other. 

And, you have now become dated, also.

Your husband sees the new woman as his future, and you are dated now in the past.



_Nemesis-_


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## Benbutton (Oct 3, 2019)

Well I'm not sure why you didn't think this sooner...he's screwing around on you.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

To answer your main question: no. This absolutely is not appropriate. Your husband is showing no respect for you. He disrespects you so much that he sends you updates on how his date is going with his boss. That is disgusting. 

Go through his phone. Go through his emails. Look for the typical cheater apps like snap chat. You will more than likely find the horrible stuff there. Do NOT let him know whatsoever that you are spying on him. DON'T confront until you have undeniable proof.


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## Lizlake (Oct 7, 2021)

I asked Dan what he and Joan talk about during their dinners. He said they talk about travel and places that he and I might want to visit. Also- Joan is married and she and her husband do a lot of outdoor stuff- so he said they talk about that (Dan is NOT an outdoorsy type of guy at all…would say he is a metrosexual type of guy) which is why they don’t seem to have lot in common.

I asked what Joan’s husband thinks of this time they spent together. Joan’s husband doesn’t care they went out to eat and on this trip together. He said Joan even spoke to her husband while she was sitting with Dan. 

Dan is telling me there is nothing to it and it’s his boss and I’m overreacting. He texted me photos of each course they ate starting with the appetizer to the dessert…however was careful not to show the wine glasses in the photo. He also bragged about the $200 meal saying the company was paying for it. After the meal, they toured the city and visited a jazz club for an hour or so with drinks before 

I told him what he was doing is called “dating” and I didn’t appreciate it. I demanded it stop.

Dan had plans to stay the extra night and sightsee with Joan the next day and take the last flight home leaving NM at 8pm until I told him he better be on the very next flight home if he wanted to continue our marriage. So Dan came home early but made me feel horrible I caused him to have to modify the plane ticket and hotel stay (it cost him a few hundred in cancellation fees). I told him it was absurd he booked that itinerary without asking me because once again this looks like a date or pleasure trip.

So supposedly Dan told his general manager that he was no longer comfortable traveling with females alone. He made sure I felt bad for him having to do this. He supposedly told Joan as well. I never could trust him that on his next trip that Joan wouldn’t be on it. For the next trip he went with another woman alone and I caused a big stink and made him FaceTime me a lot more often to ensure I could trust him.

About a few weeks later, Dan told me Joan was leaving the company in a week or so. It was odd because she hadn’t been there long and she had a high paying job. Then one Monday, Dan took a day off during the week (not like him to do this). I found out it was Joans last day at work and Dan intentionally didn’t go to work that day. Explain this!


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Why don't you ask him to explain this? 

You act as though strangers have crystal balls and can see your husband's activities. 

🔮


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Lizlake said:


> I asked Dan what he and Joan talk about during their dinners. He said they talk about travel and places that he and I might want to visit. Also- Joan is married and she and her husband do a lot of outdoor stuff- so he said they talk about that (Dan is NOT an outdoorsy type of guy at all…would say he is a metrosexual type of guy) which is why they don’t seem to have lot in common.
> 
> I asked what Joan’s husband thinks of this time they spent together. Joan’s husband doesn’t care they went out to eat and on this trip together. He said Joan even spoke to her husband while she was sitting with Dan.
> 
> ...


You know the explanation already. You've come to the correct conclusion. 

Let's take the best case scenario: he isn't cheating on you. 

What then? You still have a husband that treats you terribly at home. You still have a husband that would prefer staying with another woman to do site seeing instead of coming home to spend time with you. You still have a husband that pouts and complains when you ruin his fun on his full-day dates with other women. You still have a husband who brazenly spends company money to extend work trips that go way beyond what is necessary along with eating expensive dinners? I'm assuming he works M-F, right? What company is cool with their employees spending company money for a vacation? Some of it yes, but what they are doing on multiple trips? He could be in danger of losing his job - and he will need that job to pay you the 50% of what you deserve.

So, in the best Case scenario, do you want to stay with a guy that treats you so poorly? You are better than that. You deserve someone who loves you and treats you with kindness and respect.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

Openminded said:


> Have you posted this story before? It sounds very familiar.


Yep I remember reading it too, the other woman, Joan in this case, was older than Dan. 

Op, he had, or wanted to have an affair, she was probably either an attention seeker, or did bang him but had no intention of a relationship. She has probably done this before and your husband is the latest fool to fall for it. That's my crystal ball guess. Im sorry for you and your husband, is he blameless, no, but some people are master manipulators and know how to get their needs met irrespective of the damage it causes


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## jjj858 (Jun 18, 2021)

He is cheating on you. There’s no way they weren’t sleeping together on these business trips. Him acting ugly to you is his way of putting distance between you and maybe some weird way of justifying what he’s doing.


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## Lizlake (Oct 7, 2021)

Yes of course I asked him. The answer is that I am crazy and jealous. He said it’s what everyone does on business trips. I haven’t been on any as my job requires no travel such as this. He said all of the other wives don’t complain to which I answered that he is the only one taking trips alone with a woman (the others go in groups). 

Before this trip,she had actually gone on another trip with Dan and another male coworker. The three of them were supposed to go to dinner one night but she ended up going shopping, so my husband brought her food back to the hotel (so nice of him). She bought Dan a gift on his birthday (a scarf and a bottle of whiskey). 

The company encouraged what they call one-on-one 30 min meetings once a month between the managers and workers. So when it was Dans turn for the meeting, she would take Dan to lunch or out to a coffee shop (she didn’t do this for other male employees).

I should’ve reported her to the company- but it looks like she left abruptly so I never got the chance. Also curious as to why she left so fast. About two months after leaving, I saw that she sent Dan a text (he never texted back).


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

He’s was having fun and you stopped it. He’s feeling a mixture of guilt about his behavior and anger about you halting his fun.
I would really like to know why she left/was fired because I’ve got a feeling her and her husband have some sort of cuckold fantasy going on.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Maybe an emotional affair... your husband seems a touch too "involved" with Joan. Also strange she left abruptly and he didn't go to work that day. As a man, I would say they were having an affair. The pics were just a way of keeping in touch and showing you there was nothing going on. If he didn't care about her, he wouldn't be so upset about the whole thing.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Lizlake said:


> He said it’s what everyone does on business trips.


Nope, not true. He clearly thinks you're incredibly dumb to even try to tell you that.

It's normal on business trips to eat meals together or in groups. That's it. Not 1:1 bar hopping and clubbing, or sight seeing. That's BS.

I would absolutely hit the roof if my husband was doing this.


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## Lizlake (Oct 7, 2021)

I agree he would not have such a provoked angry response if he didn’t care or have some feelings for Joan. He definitely wouldn’t get angry enough to threaten to leave a marriage. He obviously thought I could be convinced this was normal behavior (he just threw a fit each time I told him it wasn’t appropriate and would stonewall me. He did this for weeks before that trip and insisted he HAD to go for work reasons. Also he and Joan planned the trip out while at work and booked with the company travel agency without any consideration to me. When I balked, he said the tickets weren’t changeable and that they had agreed to stay the extra night instead of flying on home. He told me it was too late to fly back anyway and they had plans to go to a museum and tourist things the next morning (of course after another elaborate meal together).


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I mean, apart from the candlelit dinner and the jazz club (WTF?), booking an extra day to visit museums with his boss is just weird, to say the least. It sounds like he is out on a date with his girlfriend.

That said, my suspicion about Joan leaving her job abruptly is that her husband found out about the affair.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

I traveled for years in Europe before I met my wife and I regularly had dinner dates with female colleagues. When I started dating my wife I was still travelling over almost every week but the dinner dates came to an end. 
She never asked me about whether I was meeting other women but I knew she was not going to put up with it and I didn’t want to anyway. 
I didn’t want to risk losing her. Unfortunately your husband doesn’t feel the same way it seems.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Lizlake said:


> Does this sound appropriate????


nope. sounds like he is infatuated with her.

and blowing off your birthday is a real bummer! Did he forget, or just did not care about it?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Why did she abruptly leave the company?

I suspect that $200 meal that she put on the companies credit card might have led to this.

Those type expenses are reserved for prospective clients, not for personal indulgences.

Or, someone caught on to their (on and off the clock) shenanigans and reported them.


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## Coloratura (Sep 28, 2021)

My STBX husband had an affair lasting 8 years (I just learned about the 8 yrs part and that is why we are separating now) that began in this exact same way. Work trips all the time, trade shows, expensive company drinks and dinners, plane rides, flight delays, sightseeing “because what else is there to do while we are on layover a whole day”, fancy clothes “because we have to represent the company”. When not on trips he still stayed out late drinking every night and began to treat me horribly. I walked in one day and caught them kissing. I thought he had finally ended it with her and that we had reconciled, but that was not the case as I now know. They just got more sneaky.

Like you, I trusted him and never thought he would ever cheat on me. Boy was I wrong. You need to be brave and put your foot down on this behavior. Or tell him from now on YOU want to go too!

ETA My husband also sent pictures as if he wanted me to share in his excitement. The truth was, he did it so I wouldn’t suspect he was having an affair. Like - why would he send pictures if it was all a secret? Watch out or one day he might say to you, as my husband said to me, “My relationship with her has made me realize how much I love you”. That is such BS. If I could turn back time I would have done things very differently and would not have stuck my head in the sand. Also, don’t believe anything she says about how her husband doesn’t care. How could your husband actually know that to be true? He probably doesn’t even know.


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## kdog99 (Aug 11, 2020)

This scenario has infidelity written all over it. It is an all too common and sad occurrence. It is for certain that your husband is having an emotional affair and very likely a sexual affair. At the very least he has broken most of his marriage vows. Some men believe they can date other women or "sleep around" and still stay married. This is a heart-breaking scenario for you. At this point, you will have to make some hard decisions. Do you have children between the two of you? I recommend counseling for you and any children you may have that are old enough to understand the situation. It is imperative that you protect yourself and any children you have, and not let your husband's choices destroy you. You can invite your husband to counseling, but chances are he won't be interested in doing it. He has already provided evidence of emotional infidelity. Any meetings or "dates" alone with another female are not appropriate under any circumstance. There is never a good reason for a husband to be alone with another female. You will need to gather evidence of sexual infidelity and then confront him with the evidence. In case you find no evidence of sexual infidelity, he has still broken his marriage vows and that by itself may warrant a divorce. If you can afford an attorney, get legal advice, and make sure you and any children you have are taken care of financially. There may be free or low-cost attorney options in your area. From the scenario you described, it is he who has broken his marriage vows, and you shouldn't suffer any more than you have to because of his choices. Your husband needs to understand that there are consequences for such irresponsible and destructive choices. The following ideas may be helpful for you (and your husband if he is open to these ideas):
*Each partner in a marriage has the following rights:*
The right to expect your partner to be faithful to you
The right to be free of criticism from your spouse (without your consent)
The right to be loved
The right to be treated as an equal
The right to be free from any type of abuse from your spouse
The right to expect your spouse to fulfill his or her share of responsibilities as mutually agreed upon.
The right to physical intimacy
The right to emotional security
The right to exclusive sexual intimacy
The right to exclusive emotional intimacy
The right to loyalty
The right to maintain your personal identity
The right to pursue personal interests and personal development
The right to be cherished
The right to be trusted
The right to be respected
The right to confidentiality
The right to be heard and listened to
The right to be the most important person to your spouse and his/her highest priority
The right of enhancement: your life is better married than single
The right to a partner who exerts himself/herself to be his/her best self
The right to reasonable expectations

*In a marriage relationship, you do not have the following rights:*

The right to humiliate your spouse in front of others
The right to criticize your spouse without his or her consent
The right to reveal details of your marriage to others (except for abuse)
The right to share your emotions with anyone of the opposite sex 
The right to spend time alone with someone of the opposite sex
The right to place unreasonable demands or expectations on your spouse
The right to dictate how your spouse spends his/her time (beyond what you have mutually agreed upon)
The right to give orders to your spouse
The right to abuse your spouse in any way
The right to exercise unrighteous dominion over your spouse
The right to look elsewhere for love or sexual satisfaction. You gave up that right when you got married.
The right to withhold affection from your spouse
The right to judge your spouse
The right to squander household resources or spend money beyond that agreed upon by both partners

Make sure your husband knows about your plans for any marriage or legal counseling. it is important for you to follow the rules even if he doesn't.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Openminded said:


> Have you posted this story before? It sounds very familiar.


I agree, I've read this exact same story here before, not too long ago.


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## Captain Obvious (Mar 14, 2021)

Have you thought about reaching out to Joan’s husband?


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## NorthernGuard (Jul 29, 2021)

You've got huge red flags flying all over the place, OP. Your husband's actions and the absolute B.S. he's feeding you about he and Joan are straight outta the cheaters playbook. He's lying through his teeth and gaslighting the hell outta you! Don't believe a word of it! 

You asked him what he and Joan talked about at dinner and he told you "they talked about travel and places you and he might like to visit". Let me translate that into universal cheater speak and how it probably really went down: "they talked about travel and places HE AND SHE might like to visit". Of course he was never going to admit that's how the convo really went down, to you, because that would be shooting his own foot off. 

You asked what Joan's husband thinks of this time they spent together and he said "Joan's husband doesn't care they went out to eat and on this trip together". Let me translate that into universal cheater speak and how it probably really went down: Just like you, Joan's husband doesn't know for certain they're carrying on an affair (is likely also suspicious) so she downplayed their relationship so he'd let his guard down and to throw him off the scent by telling her husband: "Dan's wife doesn't care they went out to eat and on this trip together", exactly as your husband told you, and for the same reason. 

I mean, can't you see you're being silly and there's clearly nothing going on between them if Joan's husband is fine with it, and vice versa. Of course, there's also the very real likelyhood that that conversation never took place between Joan and her husband at all, and your husband made it up to gaslight you into compliance and acceptance.

You said your husband told you he told his GM "that he was no longer comfortable traveling with females alone" and even made you feel bad for having done so, but on his very next work trip he went alone with a woman. Let me translate that into universal cheater speak for you and how it probably really went down: Your husband had no such convo with his GM but told you he did to gaslight you and make you feel bad and that you're overreacting, because if he had, his GM and the business he's employed by wouldn't take his request lightly in this day and age of "me too" and wouldn't send him alone with a woman on his very next trip after him having done so.

I'm sorry, but I think your husband isn't just in an emotional affair, but a full blown physical affair as well. They've been texting beyond what their job requires or friendly new coworkers do, she bought him gifts (he's prob reciprocated), they're dating and off together having exclusive and romantic candlelight dinners at fancy restaurants, sightseeing and enjoying vacations in each other company, and staying in the hotels out of town and beyond any true oversight. 

Two grown adults in this type of situation aren't heading up to a hotel room at the end of the day to go play pattycake. They're having sex, and plenty of it. 

Her leaving her job after only being there a short time (and your husband not going to work on her last day) makes me think perhaps her husband finally confirmed for himself there's an affair and dropped a hammer on Joan by enacting boundaries and consequences, of which quiting her job and going no contact with your hubby (her AP) was one. 

She likely reached out with that text two months later because things have died down a bit for her now and she misses him, but your husband didn't reply back because he's worried her hubby may find out about it and blow the lid of things to you, if he does. Or maybe they've just taken it further underground and are in contact through burner phones or hidden messaging apps and think they've pulled the wool over you and her husband's eyes again.

If I were you, without letting my husband know, I'd absolutely be getting ahold of Joan's husband to inform him of their emotional affair (suspected physical) and compare notes. It seems way too coincidental she quit her high paying job in the era of covid so suddenly, and I'm betting her husband knows a lot more than you do, and can confirm your suspicions. 

A lot of times a betrayed spouse doesn't contact the other betrayed spouse for a number of different reasons. Doesn't want to hurt the other betrayed incase they don't know. Doesn't want to involve themselves in another's marriage cuz they're too busy dealing with the fallout in their own. Or just doesn't care to be the one to reach out but will talk if contacted. Her husband may be thinking along these lines. 

If you want answers and to get to the bottom of this he's a solid first start. You won't get the truth from your cheating husband. Cheaters lie, alot. Then they lie some more. Dan isn't your man if your looking for honest answers. Joan's husband is..


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

She likely left because Joan's husband informed HR of her affair with a subordinate employee (your husband).

Talk to Joan's husband. There is no reason, other than fear of knowing the truth, not to contact him.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

kdog99 said:


> This scenario has infidelity written all over it. It is an all too common and sad occurrence. It is for certain that your husband is having an emotional affair and very likely a sexual affair. At the very least he has broken most of his marriage vows. Some men believe they can date other women or "sleep around" and still stay married. This is a heart-breaking scenario for you. At this point, you will have to make some hard decisions. Do you have children between the two of you? I recommend counseling for you and any children you may have that are old enough to understand the situation. It is imperative that you protect yourself and any children you have, and not let your husband's choices destroy you. You can invite your husband to counseling, but chances are he won't be interested in doing it. He has already provided evidence of emotional infidelity. Any meetings or "dates" alone with another female are not appropriate under any circumstance. There is never a good reason for a husband to be alone with another female. You will need to gather evidence of sexual infidelity and then confront him with the evidence. In case you find no evidence of sexual infidelity, he has still broken his marriage vows and that by itself may warrant a divorce. If you can afford an attorney, get legal advice, and make sure you and any children you have are taken care of financially. There may be free or low-cost attorney options in your area. From the scenario you described, it is he who has broken his marriage vows, and you shouldn't suffer any more than you have to because of his choices. Your husband needs to understand that there are consequences for such irresponsible and destructive choices. The following ideas may be helpful for you (and your husband if he is open to these ideas):
> *Each partner in a marriage has the following rights:*
> The right to expect your partner to be faithful to you
> The right to be free of criticism from your spouse (without your consent)
> ...


Where could I read up on these rights? I mean where does this come from? A book or article?


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## Spoons027 (Jun 19, 2017)

Seconding everything everyone has already said. Your husband is playing straight out of the cheaters’ handbook. I bet money it wasn’t just emotional either.

Please start protecting yourself, because your husband no longer will.


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## Lizlake (Oct 7, 2021)

Other tidbits you might find useful: 

Joan is still with her husband. Pics on Instagram and FB. When she texted Dan and I found out, I made him block her number and I monitor often to ensure no communication (I am tech savvy). Since the pandemic, he is home all of the time. Never leaves the house except for quick run to get groceries or a short errand. Joan lives a good 40 min away, so I doubt he sees her. If he still talks to her I don’t know how and who would even want a relationship that is online only.

Here’s something interesting. After he told her he wasn’t going to travel with her anymore, he wanted us to work on our marriage. He seemed dedicated to me (going on dates with me etc). He suggested I come to the office to meet the coworkers and I met Joan. She was very quiet and just said a quick hello only. Why bring me to his office to introduce me? Shortly after this is when she left the company.
He insists he did nothing wrong, and we didn’t have known boundaries (hello dumbo we are married is my reply to him- u don’t need me to tell u about a boundary). Part of the reason I don’t feel comfortable is that he acts like this. How can he be trusted if he thinks this is normal behavior and all our issues were my reaction to it?


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

Lizlake said:


> Other tidbits you might find useful:
> 
> Joan is still with her husband. Pics on Instagram and FB. When she texted Dan and I found out, I made him block her number and I monitor often to ensure no communication (I am tech savvy). Since the pandemic, he is home all of the time. Never leaves the house except for quick run to get groceries or a short errand. Joan lives a good 40 min away, so I doubt he sees her. If he still talks to her I don’t know how and who would even want a relationship that is online only.
> 
> ...


How did you find out that it was her last day when he took off? I'm sure he didn't tell you that. Yeah, for her to be quiet like that, they're at the very least guilty of an EA. 

I wonder, would your husband be willing to take a polygraph? At least to ease your mind in one way...to know whether it was physical or not. 

I'm glad to read that you've stood your ground and have not allowed him to gaslight you. 

He certainly acted inappropriately in many ways....and he hasn't treated you with RESPECT whatsoever. NOW he's dating you? lol...long overdue.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

There’s no doubt he was having an affair with this woman. I’d bet she was forced to leave by her husband who probably been suspicious of your husband and found the evidence he needed. It may have included HR, which is why your gut is no longer traveling with women. I’m sure that edict came from management not your husband.

You need to get in touch with OW’s husband. He will be able to fill in the holes in your investigation. Also, let him know about her recent attempts at reaching out to your husband. Besides going through your husband’s phone, laptop, and tablet, you should look for a burner phone. It will be in his car. Check the glove compartment and trunk.

You have been way to understanding. You need to find your in beotch. The BWs that release the kraken, get WHs that are scrambling to save their marriage.

Not to throw any shade but have you let yourself go. This pandemic has caused many of us to gain weight and generally not make an effort with our appearance. I recommend that you start working out and up your efforts in your appearance ( clothes, hair, makeup, hygiene etc). Not for him. For yourself. Also, get yourself busy with an activity that gets you out of the house. Him seeing your hotness go up and you being more scarce around the house will put some dread in him. Make him work to earn your love and forgiveness.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I am going to play devil's advocate here, and this won't be popular. You can see from my other advice in these threads that I normally don't have this reaction......

But when I read this, I see a husband who is EXTREMELY transparent with his wife. Texting updates regularly, bringing his wife to the office, etc. He also did everything you asked him to do. I see a guy that likely enjoys business travel, and perhaps is a bit naive to "how things look", but there is nothing here that shows he wants Joan as a romantic partner. Even all the 50 texts were travel related and nothing sexy, personal, or remotely odd, other than how many there were.

IMHO, Joan was into your husband perhaps, and it wasn't reciprocated. Your H even told his company he wasn't comfortable traveling alone with females. What the F more do you want him to do??? Joan even left the company. And to your own admission, your H is barely leaving the house anymore.

In his shoes I wouldn't have booked the extra day...but he told you everything he was doing! A cheating H wouldn't be so transparent, in my opinion.

I see this very differently than others. And I think you are down a path that's going to have a self-fulfilling prophecy. You're going to drive him out.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Many spouses don’t think they need boundaries. Many people think they can handle being around others they are attracted to. So many cheaters say, “I never intended for this to happen.”

great…. But it did happen.

this is why boundaries are needed. For many people it is intuitive. I for one always go in the opposite direction of temptation. It is ridiculous to fight it. There is no prize for showing how you can “beat” temptation. Just remove yourself from it with boundaries. It is much easier.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Lizlake said:


> Other tidbits you might find useful:
> 
> Joan is still with her husband. Pics on Instagram and FB. When she texted Dan and I found out, I made him block her number and I monitor often to ensure no communication (I am tech savvy). Since the pandemic, he is home all of the time. Never leaves the house except for quick run to get groceries or a short errand. Joan lives a good 40 min away, so I doubt he sees her. If he still talks to her I don’t know how and who would even want a relationship that is online only.
> 
> ...


So your H takes every action you asked him for, and more. He changed his flights. He blocked her number. He told his company he doesn't want to travel with females. He brings you to the office. And he, on his own, decides that you guys should clearly set boundaries for the future.

What a horrible guy....🙄


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## NorthernGuard (Jul 29, 2021)

Gabriel said:


> But when I read this, I see a husband who is EXTREMELY transparent with his wife. Texting updates regularly, bringing his wife to the office, etc. He also did everything you asked him to do. I see a guy that likely enjoys business travel, and perhaps is a bit naive to "how things look", but there is nothing here that shows he wants Joan as a romantic partner. Even all the 50 texts were travel related and nothing sexy, personal, or remotely odd, other than how many there were.
> 
> In his shoes I wouldn't have booked the extra day...but he told you everything he was doing! A cheating H wouldn't be so transparent, in my opinion.


Did you read Coloratura's post above, with her warning and subsequent regret? She would disagree with you based on her very painful, personal experience, which mirrors what the OP is going through now.


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## NorthernGuard (Jul 29, 2021)

Lizlake said:


> Other tidbits you might find useful:
> 
> Joan is still with her husband. Pics on Instagram and FB. When she texted Dan and I found out, I made him block her number and I monitor often to ensure no communication (I am tech savvy). Since the pandemic, he is home all of the time. Never leaves the house except for quick run to get groceries or a short errand. Joan lives a good 40 min away, so I doubt he sees her. If he still talks to her I don’t know how and who would even want a relationship that is online only.
> 
> ...


OP, for your own piece of mind if you wanna try to confirm whether he's still talking to her and the affair is ongoing (he could have a burner phone hidden away) it's generally recommended that you get a good quality Sony VAR (voice activated recorder) from Best Buy or Walmart for around $60 and use heavy duty velcro to adhere it up underneath the driver's seat of his car. Use cash to purchase so there's no papertrail for him to find and alert him to it.

If there's lights on it you cover them with black tape. Also get a set of earbuds and snip them off at the base so you're left with only the piece that plugs into the VAR (this prevents audio escaping from the speaker if there's accidental playback while still hidden). If you do this, test it out well to learn all the functions and so you're knowledgable with it's operation beforehand. It's recommended you get two so you have a backup, and can also hide one wherever he spends most of his time using his phone in the house. 

This is for your own personal use only and you never play it's content (if you hit paydirt) or reveal it any way to your husband or anyone else. Keep it hidden well when not in use and never disclose how you came about the info you may find on it. It's not for use in divorce proceedings or any reason other than to help you be able to make informed decisions on where your marriage truly stands and if your husband is being truthful in regards to being no contact with his affair partner.

And again, everything you've just written about your husband's current behaviour (and Joan's reaction to you when you met her at his work) is straight outta the cheater's playbook and screams that there's an affair between them. You saw Coloratura's post above right? Take heed..


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

NorthernGuard said:


> Did you read Coloratura's post above, with her warning and subsequent regret? She would disagree with you based on her very painful, personal experience, which mirrors what the OP is going through now.


Her H may have cheated, may not have cheated, but all these "red flags" have yet to tell me he has, and he's bent over backwards to appease his wife when confronted. He's done WAY more than 90% of others.


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## NorthernGuard (Jul 29, 2021)

Gabriel said:


> Her H may have cheated, may not have cheated, but all these "red flags" have yet to tell me he has, and he's bent over backwards to appease his wife when confronted. He's done WAY more than 90% of others.


We'll have to agree to disagree then. We have differing opinions on what constitutes an affair, but all good regardless.. In my opinion, and for myself personally, what the OP stated has occurred thus far between her husband and Joan is without question an affair in my books, it's just unconfirmed at this time as to the degree and severity of it.

As to him having "bent over backwards to appease his wife when confronted"? I don't see it that way at all. I see an unrepentant and unremorseful man that cares little for his wife's concerns and feelings, whose still gaslighting the hell out of her, and resentfully doing what he feels he has to do to shut her up and make this all go away. 

I so wish she'd contact Joan's husband and place some VARS about and stop believing a word her cheating POS husband says or what he does to try and snow her. But that's just me..


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## Lizlake (Oct 7, 2021)

So earlier today he told me he was tired and did not sleep well last night because he had had some bad dreams. I was busy working in my office in our house and he got gone for about an hour. I came up to our bedroom and he was laying on the bed on his phone (says he was reading the news and resting not sleeping). 

One of our older children needed some help cleaning some stuff out of his closet and there were a lot of boxes to be carried that were too heavy for me. I walked into the bedroom and asked Dan to help me carry them. Dan laughed at me and told me I didn’t need to be done right now. I asked nicely and it really didn’t need to be done right that second because there’s nowhere to put them and I need his help carrying them out to our storage building.

I walked off into the bathroom and just said I would just do it myself. Dan continue laughing saying don’t be that way baby taunting me.

Then Dan got up and took a shower while I worked with the boxes for about an hour before he came down and decided he would help. Of course by then I was furious and didn’t even want his help. He then blamed me and told me I was being crazy and hysterical.

I just went off on him and told him off. I told him he never acknowledges he has any faults or takes ownership in any arguments. I told him this is what I call reconcilable differences. He continued trying to tell me he was tired tonight and didn’t want to do it and I didn’t take any consideration for his feelings.


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## Spoons027 (Jun 19, 2017)

You need to start detaching. Now.


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## NorthernGuard (Jul 29, 2021)

Lizlake said:


> "So my husband (let’s say his name is Dan) got a new job 4 months ago in finance".
> 
> Since Dan started working there, he and Joan have became close".
> 
> ...


OP, I was just reading back through your thread and noticed you joined this site two days ago. Can you please clarify the discrepancy in your timeline of events from your first post, that I quoted above? I'm gonna assume you meant 14 months and not 4? Thanks.


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## Slowhand (Oct 8, 2021)

Lizlake said:


> So my husband (let’s say his name is Dan) got a new job 4 months ago in finance. The job involves lot of meeting clients, so he travels for work about once per month for 4-5 day trips. Some are drivable and some are across the US via plane. His team consists of 8 employees with a female supervisor. Most of thee employees are younger. My husband (Dan) and female supervisor (let’s say her name is Joan) are same age.
> 
> Since Dan started working there, he and Joan have became close. Joan takes Dan out to lunch alone a lot, she brings him gifts to work on occasion. Joan and Dan have had to work late on a recent project as well. I fully have trusted Dan so didn’t worry. When Dan travels, it is usually with a group of 2-3 male coworkers and occasionally another female (Joan never went back then).
> 
> ...


 Hire a private investigator, Now!


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Openminded said:


> Have you posted this story before? It sounds very familiar.





BigDaddyNY said:


> I agree, I've read this exact same story here before, not too long ago.


There's a thread in Sex in Marriage (Kinks) with a similar mention of female boss, similar flight times out on Sunday for work, and wanting to go to museum together.


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## Lizlake (Oct 7, 2021)

NorthernGuard said:


> OP, I was just reading back through your thread and noticed you joined this site two days ago. Can you please clarify the discrepancy in your timeline of events from your first post, that I quoted above? I'm gonna assume you meant 14 months and not 4? Thanks.


Yes sorry typo on my part- I meant 14 months.


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## Lizlake (Oct 7, 2021)

heartsbeating said:


> There's a thread in Sex in Marriage (Kinks) with a similar mention of female boss, similar flight times out on Sunday for work, and wanting to go to museum together.


I’m not sure what kinks is. I am posting for the first time in this forum about a husband who is breaking a lot of rules in the marriage. I would imagine other people could have similar stories with a female boss?


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## Lizlake (Oct 7, 2021)

I wanted to give an update tonight. Thanks for the ideas for the VAR. I really chewed him out tonight and he got his keys and said he was going out for the night. I told him not to let the door hit him on his way out. Then he walked back in and said he was going to run to the store to get some dog food and asked if I want anything. He came home and went straight into our living room and closed the door to eat. I went to pick me up to go and got home and he was still in there with tv paused. 

I decided to open the door and he was on his phone. I asked why he was holed up in here on his phone ignoring me. Told him it looks odd. He blew up and said I was accusing him and it was wrong. Just two days ago he was asking me why I look at my phone for so long in bed (sometimes I can’t sleep and it helps to read news- but I’m right beside him in bed lol). It’s fine for him to ask me but I can’t ask him or I’m a snoopy woman. IMO he’s way too sensitive when asked what he’s doing on his phone.

The rest of the night we were on sofa watching a movie and he’s holding my hand. Can someone say wtf.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

@Lizlake I think you need to step back on the accusations and chewing him out etc and try to get to the real truth. Do the VAR thing, for sure. Give him space to show his cards. Fly casual. Which is going to be tough for you because you're clearly (and rightfully) really worked up over all of this and showing your colors. Go stealth. You may be the tech-savvy person in the relationship, but getting a second phone, a burner, is pretty obvious stuff that can elude a tech-savvy person. But, maybe he's not smart enough to realize he shouldn't be hooking it up to your home's wifi. If he is, you'll find it showing up as a connected device.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

You might want to go 180 on him. He's seems rather confident that he can pull your strings and you will do what he says. I don't know if it's been mentioned, but beyond whatever good qualities he may have, he's lazy.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

@Lizlake So this other post by @betsyboo10 isn't you? I find that hard to believe since other than the part about kinks, the story about the female boss is far to similar to not be the same story.

Thanks @heartsbeating for mentioning the other post. I tried looking for it when I read this one, but couldn't find it. I knew I had read that story someplace else.



betsyboo10 said:


> First: I'm no prude. I've had 2 partners my entire life, but I have done a lot of experimentation and had different types of sex with both.
> 
> I met my current husband in college while separated from my ex-husband. We hit it off immediately. Anyway- we continued dating and had sex daily. Some of the sex was very intense- sessions lasts hours long and sometimes it was fast hard sex and others it was intense staring in the eyes sex. I always felt like he required a lot of variety to satisfy him. I was always having to bring in props into the bedroom or surprise him with sex in weird locations.
> 
> ...


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You are only a chump if you allow it.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Lizlake said:


> I wanted to give an update tonight. Thanks for the ideas for the VAR. I really chewed him out tonight and he got his keys and said he was going out for the night. I told him not to let the door hit him on his way out. Then he walked back in and said he was going to run to the store to get some dog food and asked if I want anything. He came home and went straight into our living room and closed the door to eat. I went to pick me up to go and got home and he was still in there with tv paused.
> 
> I decided to open the door and he was on his phone. I asked why he was holed up in here on his phone ignoring me. Told him it looks odd. He blew up and said I was accusing him and it was wrong. Just two days ago he was asking me why I look at my phone for so long in bed (sometimes I can’t sleep and it helps to read news- but I’m right beside him in bed lol). It’s fine for him to ask me but I can’t ask him or I’m a snoopy woman. IMO he’s way too sensitive when asked what he’s doing on his phone.
> 
> The rest of the night we were on sofa watching a movie and he’s holding my hand. Can someone say wtf.


Their affair is ongoing.


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## Lizlake (Oct 7, 2021)

Marc878 said:


> Their affair is ongoing.


What actions make you think so?


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## Lizlake (Oct 7, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> @Lizlake So this other post by @betsyboo10 isn't you? I find that hard to believe since other than the part about kinks, the story about the female boss is far to similar to not be the same story.
> 
> Thanks @heartsbeating for mentioning the other post. I tried looking for it when I read this one, but couldn't find it. I knew I had read that story someplace else.


Instead of helping me I am not sure why you keep insisting I am the person who wrote another post which I’ve already said I’m not.


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## NorthernGuard (Jul 29, 2021)

Lizlake said:


> "I wanted to give an update tonight. Thanks for the ideas for the VAR. I really chewed him out tonight and he got his keys and said he was going out for the night".
> 
> "I decided to open the door and he was on his phone. I asked why he was holed up in here on his phone ignoring me. Told him it looks odd. He blew up and said I was accusing him and it was wrong".
> 
> "IMO he’s way too sensitive when asked what he’s doing on his phone".


OP, I know it's hard because your emotions are all over the place but you need to STOP CONFRONTING your husband!! He's gonna become even more secretive of his affair and cagey about his phone, so you're doing yourself no favour. Drop it for now (as far as he's concerned). You want him let his guard down and feel comfortable so he'll slip up. If you keep accusing him he'll stay on high alert and take it further underground and keep gaslighting you and calling you crazy. That path will lead you nowhere.

Time to put on your sleuthing hat! Keep you eyes open and your MOUTH SHUT! Get the VARS and get them in place. You could also buy a gps tracker and hide it in his car, if you think it may lead to answers. Just like the VAR you never disclose you're using it to your husband or anyone else. If you don't think you can keep your cool and from disclosing the fact that you used these devices to your husband (if you hit paydirt) then don't use them, because he can use it against you if things get nasty. 

Once again, you never reveal your sources, only the info you gleaned from them, and not in a way that would incriminate you. Hide them well when using, and keep them well hidden somewhere he won't find them when not in use, incase he gets suspicious and goes looking. If accused without proof, take a page outta his book and deny, deny, deny.

As to the other thread, it sure sounds like the same storyline to me, and if that's you it certainly adds a whole new dimension to what you're dealing with. Perhaps you felt you shared too much and are embarassed so don't want to admit to being that OP? If this is the case you need not worry in that regard. Members of this forum are here to offer you advice and support, and I'm sure that's hardly the worst story they've ever read here. Certainly not the worst I've read, anyhow. It would be easier to tailor advice to you if we know the whole of it. Please keep this in mind.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Lizlake said:


> I’m not sure what kinks is. I am posting for the first time in this forum about a husband who is breaking a lot of rules in the marriage. I would imagine other people could have similar stories with a female boss?


Maybe. The museum part of it is what caught my eye. That’s rare.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Lizlake said:


> What actions make you think so?


They were dating, taking trips together, Etc. Now he’s phone guarding. Have you even bothered to go online and viewed his phone bill, etc? It appears you don’t want to know the truth. You just want it to go away.


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## Spoons027 (Jun 19, 2017)

Following NorthernGuard’s lead here, every time you confront him, you’re only driving him further underground. Soon there will be no avenue left to openly catch him unless you go digging for it.

So wait and watch. Watch his actions. And in the meantime, could you please answer what type of help you’re looking for?


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Lizlake said:


> I asked Dan what he and Joan talk about during their dinners. He said they talk about travel and places that he and I might want to visit. Also- Joan is married and she and her husband do a lot of outdoor stuff- so he said they talk about that (Dan is NOT an outdoorsy type of guy at all…would say he is a metrosexual type of guy) which is why they don’t seem to have lot in common.
> 
> I asked what Joan’s husband thinks of this time they spent together. Joan’s husband doesn’t care they went out to eat and on this trip together. He said Joan even spoke to her husband while she was sitting with Dan.
> 
> ...


A female boss giving a male subordinate gifts is WAY out of line and NOT correct in a business atmosphere AT ALL.
What they are doing at a MINIMUM is and EA. I bet her H doesn't know that she was going to museums with your H.
Do NOT let your H make YOU feel bad about the BS that HE DID. HE CAUSED THIS by acting inappropriately, NOT YOU. You clearly stated your boundary and that he was over the line, and explained what the consequences were. You did the right thing. Boo Hoo, he had to change his flight so that he couldn't go on his date. TOO BAD.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Gabriel said:


> I am going to play devil's advocate here, and this won't be popular. You can see from my other advice in these threads that I normally don't have this reaction......
> 
> But when I read this, I see a husband who is EXTREMELY transparent with his wife. Texting updates regularly, bringing his wife to the office, etc. He also did everything you asked him to do. I see a guy that likely enjoys business travel, and perhaps is a bit naive to "how things look", but there is nothing here that shows he wants Joan as a romantic partner. Even all the 50 texts were travel related and nothing sexy, personal, or remotely odd, other than how many there were.
> 
> ...


i was also wondering if the hubby was the victim of workplace sexual harassment?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Openminded said:


> Have you posted this story before? It sounds very familiar.


Sounds very similar to this thread:








Relationships and Addiction


Whether it's drugs, alcohol, gambling, sex, pornography, or anything else, addictions can be detrimental to the health of a relationship.




www.talkaboutmarriage.com


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*MODERATOR WARNING:-* Thanks for dropping by, Lizlake aka betsyboo10.


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