# Your opinion and advice please!



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

I am posting this (rather long) series of information because I want some advice and also opinions. First, I would like opinions on the likelihood of my wife having had sex with another man. Second, I would like some advice on how I can get her to admit this and if not, to agree to a polygraph test.

I will first detail the instances of infidelity to which she has confessed. These events all happened over the past 8 years, and are in chronological order from earliest to most recent

1.She claims to have met a man on an airplane and exchanged business cards. They then met for lunch during the workday. He gave her a passionate kiss (1-minutes or so) afterwards and then she never talked to or saw him again.

2.She was out at a bar at a corporate event and had been drinking. People were playing billiards and she met someone at the bar. She held hands with him that night but cannot remember if she kissed him or not.

3.She was at a corporate event at a hotel, with everyone drinking. She was 29 at the time and had been flirting with an older (~42 years old), much more senior man. He gave her a passionate kiss, but nothing else happened. We were living in London at the time, and I found pictures of her sitting with his arm around her at her “going away drinks”. She claims that all they ever did after that is have breakfast together shortly before we left London. After she confessed this to me, I called him and asked for his version of events. He denied everything, including kissing her.

4.She was in Las Vegas at a sales convention. Everyone had been drinking. A coworker walked her back to her hotel room, and they kissed each other at the door for about 2 minutes. He wanted to go in the room, but she abruptly called it off. About a month later, he walked her to her car at another corporate event, and she was giving him a ride back to his hotel. He put his hand on her leg, and she told him “no, we can't do this”. He stopped. After she confessed this to me, I called him. When I called him, he said “hold on, can I call you back in an hour or so?” She admits that he then called her. I called him back in an hour and asked him what had happened in Las Vegas with my wife. He very sheepishly said “well, I am not proud of how I acted when I used to drink as much as I did. I walked her to her room and I uh, I um, planted a kiss on her”. Background: his wife is a somewhat well-known former daytime soap opera star. He said “I know what you're going through, since I recently went through something very similar with my wife. I'm sorry”

5.I saw an email that someone had sent her saying “I had a great time at the bar in San Francisco the other night with you. I'm back in England and want to see you again.” She wrote to him “I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, but I'm married with 4 kids” He wrote “That's OK, I know you were just having some fun. I will be back in March and could sure use those warm hands of yours for a bit more fondling” She claims not to have seen or written to him again. She doesn't remember any sort of “fondling”, only that she was very drunk.

6.She was arrested for a DUI in Pebble Beach about 18 months ago driving back to her hotel from a work event at 1:30 in the morning. The police report mentioned that she was driving and had a (married) male colleague in the passenger seat with her.

7.When I am able to view her text messages (rare occasions), I almost always find flirtatious text messages from multiple men, usually those she works with. I find that she is unable to draw healthy boundaries with her male colleagues. On Christmas day (and during our Xmas dinner), she kept getting text messages from various men with whom she works wishing her a merry Christmas. She cannot comprehend why I think this is unacceptable and that she is too familiar with them. I pointed out that sure, I wished my female coworkers merry Xmas, but that was the week prior, on work hours. 

8.I was able to read an email she had written to herself trying to convince herself to leave me. The last cryptic sentence said “His sex is no better than anyone else's”

I think the evidence above strongly points to her having a problem with self-control when she drinks, as well as a fairly strong likelihood of her having had sex with one or more of these (or other) men. I feel a huge loss of intimacy with her and want her to either confess to all of it or take and pass a polygraph test. She refuses and says I need counseling to “get over all of this and put it behind us”. She is treating this as my problem and that the thought that she had sex with someone is “all in your (my) head”. She also will not agree to stop drinking at corporate events.

I have 4 kids and prefer to stay in the marriage (of 14 years) for their sake, but I need to know the whole truth. I am willing to go to counseling to work through this. We have tried counseling but it only leads to an hour-long session of her crying and ranting about all my faults, and when I bring up any of my concerns of her infidelity, the counselor only says “let's not point fingers, but instead let's focus on things you can do to improve your relationship with her”. This has happened with 2 different counselors now. They seem utterly unconcerned that she may have had sex before.

Questions: 1. What is the likelihood she has had sex? 2. How can I get to the truth?


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Um, of course she's having sex with other men.

BTW, get a different counselor! Find one that is concerned with airing the truth and getting her to admit to what has transpired. You can't move forward without the truth.

Personally, the lie detector is more beneficial as a threat. She'll sing if she knows for sure the marriage oends if she doesn't fess up with or without the lie detector test.

BTW II, ignore her tears, they are a manipulation device.

BTW III, she needs to change jobs. She trolls for sex on the job.


BTW IV, consider leaving her. She is destructive.


----------



## raising5boyz (Nov 8, 2008)

:iagree:

She has a problem, and I don't think she cares to do anything about it. She is not setting a good example of your kids. She should be spending every moment she can with you and your kids (sober!!!). She may be required to attend events where alcohol is being served, but I'm pretty sure she is not required to drink or kiss (maybe more) her co-workers.

She needs to fess up and make changes, or you need to LEAVE HER FOR THE KIDS SAKE!


----------



## revitalizedhusband (Feb 9, 2009)

Time to leave, she has no respect for you at all, zero.


----------



## JDPreacher (Feb 27, 2009)

It's certain most of her indescretions are because of alcohol which lowers inhibitions.

Polygraphs are unreliable no matter the circumstance, you can fail them when telling the truth and pass them when you lie.

You have to trust your instinct mostly, you don't have concrete proof that she has had sex with anyone and until you do, it's unfair to make that judgement no matter how badly you want to or how much you believe. There are certainly the allusion of sex but without proof, then you're making a bad situation worse by making the accusation.

If she is unwilling to stop drinking then you have no options...this seems to be one constant in all of this. Either the drinking stops or you need to start making plans to separate...a separation may enlighten her to save her marriage or allow you the freedom and peace of mind you need to move on if it doesn't.

Blessed Be,
Preacher


----------



## moogvo (Dec 21, 2008)

I am going to have to say that it is time to pull the plug on this one.

She is a drinker. there are no two ways about it. She is also enjoying the "affairs". these are not "Emotional" affairs, but purely sexually motivated. it will not stop because she enjoys it too much.

I am an advocate for saving relationships at all costs, but this one seems like there is no fixing it. You can force her to change jobs, but I have to tell you that there will always be men around her that are willing to have "a little fun" whether they are colleagues or just plain 'ol men. 

Changing employment will not take away the opportunity, and if you can't believe that she will never do it again, it's time to put it to bed. She is busy living the "single" life while you are staying home and taking care of the family. She is immature and will remain so until SHE feels like she needs to grow up... if she ever feels that way.

And yes, she has had sex... probably numerous times.

Sorry, but it looks like the credits have begun to roll on this show.

~Moog


----------



## marina72 (Dec 29, 2008)

I noticed in your list of chronological events, that every so often, whether it's years or months, she's coming to you and willingly confessing, "kissing" or "holding hands" or some other wrong, but somewhat inocuous little bad deed she did with another man while drinking. 


It almost sounds as if she is doing this to get a rise out of you, and to get your attention, and like she maybe enjoys hurting you and making you jealous. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying she is making it up, and hasn't really done these things! 

I'm just saying, that it almost seems as though reporting it to you, is part of the pleasure she gets out of it, like she's wanting to keep you on your toes every so often. Even if she's not doing this consiously, it's strange..

I do agree with the others, that there is a likelyhood that she might have had sex with at least one of these guys. Not to say that she's done it with every man she's ever admitted to you that she fooled around with, but , she might very well be just telling you the tip of the iceberg. 

I would tell her that either she acknowledges what she's done to put your heart and mind, and marriage in such a state, or she's outta there. Also, Switch counselors. Any therapist worth their salt, is not going to completely dismiss your concerns about her being unfaithful, especially when it's not like it's all in your imagination. 

Fact is, even if she never had sex with any of these men, what she did, was STILL infidelity.... Kissing another man, holding hands, letting one walk you back to your hotel room, is not how a faithful spouse behaves. And it's a form of infidelity.

You have to get a better therapist. I would suggest even a minister or priest, if you're okay with that. Because they will tend to point out her behavior, and probably make her see how truly wrong, and destructive what she's done truly is. 

I hope you can get this worked out. I think it's admirable that you want to fix this, for the sake of your kids. But remember, you also want them to have an example of a healthy, sound, faithful marriage. And eventually, they'll catch the hint that something is up, children are far more observant than we give them credit for. And although they deserve both their parents , you have to someday think of your happiness also. Find that balance, and tell her to fix her problems. If she can't, or won't, then I guess I would say goodbye.

Keep everyone updated. Good luck


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

She is obviously a serial cheater. She will never take a polygraph. You know exactly what she is doing. You have been her enabler. You need to show her the e-mail regarding "your sex is no better then anyone else" and then tell her that you are going to divorce her. Tell her that she needs to be free, that your marriage is dead. And that you can't and won't share her. In response she will try to get you to stay (she is a cake eater). Tell her the only way is to do the polygraph, which you know she will not, because her infidelity is so great, that you are sure she would rather divorce then to look at her drunken sexual addiction openly. Tell her that she needs to hit bottom and that you can't wait around for that. Tell her that you love her to much to watch her descend further into debasing herself and your marriage. Go see a lawyer right away. And file for divorce. 

You sound like you are still in the fog. You may think "if I can only be patient with her, I can make her change". Change comes from with in. She has to want to change. One thing is. If you divorce, you will most likely get custody. She won't want it anyways. If she does share custody. It will crimp her sexcapades. There may be the slightest hope. But it would really have to be an incredible come to Jesus. 

As I said. The only way to effect her at all is to file for divorce. She has to look at herself in the mirror and realize that she is nothing but a treacherous cheating skank. Do you think she will do that without some major shock? I doesn't sound like it.


----------



## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

cato1788 said:


> I think the evidence above strongly points to her having a problem with self-control when she drinks, as well as a fairly strong likelihood of her having had sex with one or more of these (or other) men. I feel a huge loss of intimacy with her and want her to either confess to all of it or take and pass a polygraph test. She refuses and says I need counseling to “get over all of this and put it behind us”. She is treating this as my problem and that the thought that she had sex with someone is “all in your (my) head”. She also will not agree to stop drinking at corporate events.


:iagree:
She is way out of line when she drinks and to tell you to 'get over it' but still plans to drink at work events makes no sense at all. 

Who knows, maybe she has not slept with any of them and this is how she justifies to herself that she has done nothing wrong. However, she seems to have little regard for how her drinking and kissing/groping/flirting with other men makes you feel as her husband. 

She needs to understand that she is crossing the line...those actions go directly against her vows to love, honor and cherish you...and until she acknowledges that and makes changes (stop going out after work) you will continue to feel you are not #1 in her life...and you deserve to be as her husband.

Drinking is no excuse, especially in this case where she refuses to stop this behavior. I'm sure the DUI alone has impacted your family financially at the least. I don't think you need to 'get over it'. I think she needs to 'get over' partying like she's a single, wild, party girl. She's not. She's married with 4 kids.


----------



## moogvo (Dec 21, 2008)

Let me add that I wouldn't touch her sexually with a frozen rope! You have NO idea what kind of nasties she is bringing home to you.

And why shouldn't she be doing this... After all, she comes home and tells you about all the guys she's bangin' (She claims that it's not bangin', but YOU are no fool!) and you let her in. Yeah, you get a little pissed about it, but then the reset button is pressed and it begins all over again.

From what I am reading here, it sounds like you are treating this in the same way that you would be upset if she ran out of gas and you had to go out in the snow in the middle of the night and take her a can of gas to get her home.

And of course it's _YOUR_ fault... Didn't you know that ALL cheaters try to minimize their part in their affairs and attempt to turn it around and make it into their spouse's problem?

Further... Drinks+opposite sex+touching/kissing/feeling=Hobby Horse. No matter HOW you do the math, it doesn't stop at kissing once you add in drinking... EVER!

I would put the rollers under her in a New York minute. THAT, my friend, is EXACTLY how I would "get over it".

"Don't let the doorknob hitcha where the good lord splitcha baybee!"

~Moog


----------



## Ted (Mar 2, 2009)

I agree with the others. She has a drinking problem, and that has got to be addressed. Even if she hasn't had sex, she has crossed the line by kissing other men.

I'd like to think there is always a chance for reconciliation, but that can never happen until she is willing to admit the entire truth, and take responsibility for what she has done, and be willing to do the hard work of change. And right now it doesn't look like that will happen.

I'm very sorry and wish you the best


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

Thank you all for your helpful replies. I respond individually below:

*michzz:* I agree that I need a different counselor. I have decided to not have sex anymore, nor sleep in the same bed with her until this is all resolved. Laast night she came home at 10pm with alcohol on her breath again (taking customers out to dinner again). She came over to me on the couch trying to be all nice "let me rub your back". I told her "we need to see a counselor ASAP" She agreed to see one. However, I think she still thinks the purpose of seeing one is to convince me of the need to "get over it". I also agree tat her job is detrimental. She admitted to me about a week ago "I think we perhaps got married too young, and that each of us still had a lot of 'partying' we needed to get out of our system". She's obviously talking only about herself.

*JDPreacher:* The point of the polygraph as I see it is to get her to confess. She has made the point several times that they are unreliable. I told her that if she fails once, then she can take another one with a different tester, but that if she fails twice, then I will not believe her. To me, if I could see that my spouse was in psychological pain over a perceived infidelity, I would be RUSHING to get to the nearest polygraph or whatever other method I could use to show my innocence. It's sort of like when parents have a child that appears to be kidnapped. The innocent ones very quickly tell the police everything, and quickly submit to polygraphs. They know that the sooner they can convince the police that they themselves are innocent, the more quickly they police will focus on the real abductors and find their child. Guilty parents refuse the polygraph.

*Moogvo:* I agree that unless she faces this problem squarely and with a complete confession, that it will continue, since there will always be willing men. I also agree with your characterization about me getting pissed and then setting the reset button. Through this, she sees there are no repurcussions to her behavior. I also TOTALLY agree that Drinks+opposite sex+touching/kissing/feeling = intercourse. This isn't high school. I am especially suspicious about the Las Vegas event that I described above. There's NO WAY they stopped at kissing in that scenario. :rofl:

*marina72:* She doesn't very willingly admit these things. I often have had to drag them out of her. I believe she "admits to lesser crimes" while underestimating my ability to reason logically what really must have happened. I think that the truth of what she has done is potentially SO UGLY that in her mind she can't possibly admit it to me. I'm talking the possibility of her having had sex with 15-20 men or more over the past 14 years. We're going to see a new counselor together next week.

*Initfortheduration:* Your comments spoke to me the loudest, and I agree with them. Sadly, I agree that short of my filing for separation / divorce, that it is very unlikely that she will confess. That's a huge roll of the dice for me (as I don't want to lose my kids), but at least I know what needs to be done. The most dangerous times are when people do not want to know the truth. I want to know the truth and intend to find it.

One further question I have is how best do I get her to confess at the counselor? She will try very very hard to play the Greatest Hits album of all my faults, and distract from the true purpose of the counselling session which is to deal with her infidelity.


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

One other thing I forgot to mention is this: By looking at her email, I discovered that she had posted a profile (in detail and accurate, with her real name and photo, and listing her status as "divorced") on perfectmatch.com, and had done one on match.com. In neither case did she actually pay for the profile, so no one could actually contact her. 

When I found this out and confronted her, she seemed unfazed. Her reply was "that was when I was mad at you and thought we were going to get divorced."

She thinks I'm overreacting at this, and her anger is focused more on how could I have looked at her email rather than that this was an inappropriate thing for her to do.


----------



## revitalizedhusband (Feb 9, 2009)

She's deflecting the guilt. She knows she's guilty and trying to pawn it off on you instead of owning up to her own faults.


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

cato1788 said:


> One further question I have is how best do I get her to confess at the counselor? She will try very very hard to play the Greatest Hits album of all my faults, and distract from the true purpose of the counselling session which is to deal with her infidelity.


Call the counselor. Tell him that you will come up with a list of questions for her. Tell her that she has the first 15 minutes of the session, to layout all her issues with you. Then you get the next 15 minutes. EACH OF YOU CAN MAKE NO COMMENTS WHEN IT IS THE OTHERS TURN, BUT MUST ANSWER ALL QUESTIONS PUT FORTH. SHE MUST KNOW THAT THIS IS THE FINAL SESSION IF YOU GET NO ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTION (WITH PROOF)

Next, your children are at stake. They will model their marriages after yours. Your daughters will see how she treats you. They will become drinkers to hide the pain. And they will follow her example. They will cuckold their husbands like you have been. And your sons will follow your example. 

You know what you must do. I would love to see you reconciled to your wife. But based upon her history. It would be a miracle. Sometimes people need to lose everything to make a change. You have got to be strong. She will throw you a bone. She will even swear on your kids lives that she will be faithful. And she will really want to . Until she gets that third martini in her and then the nearest man will get to put his member in her. This is harsh. But unless you act. She will destroy your family along with herself. Please stay strong. You know what you have to do.


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

Thank you Initfortheduration. 

One other piece of evidence I found was an instant message chat where she was a business trip to LA with a girlfriend of hers. She wrote something like "man, I really need to watch myself. I was in LA this past weekend with (her female coworker) and I was BAD, BAD, BAD."

I ask myself, what possible things could I have done that would justify using the term "BAD, BAD, BAD" to describe my actions. I don't like the answers I give myself.


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

UPDATE: Today my wife (who is in Las Vegas for a 1-night business trip) emailed me and asked why I have been ignoring her. 

I said to her: "We have a very major unresolved issue that I need transparency and closure on before I can be close to you again as a husband. It's at a crisis point, it's not going away and I can't sweep it under the rug any longer. I need to know the whole truth, and I am very confident that I only know the partial truth right now."

She replied: "I am just glad I am have something to get me to low points again bc you keep going back to this and pulling away. I guess people do say seperation is a long process....u think it gets better and there are up and down days but in the end you can't get past not believing me."

I then replied: "We'll discuss it in counseling, but you are right - I don't believe you. "

She then replied: "I am sorry to hear that and I can't be with someone who can't believe me and trust me without a polygraph over very consistent actions over the past few years to get over it and move forward."

Question: What the hell do I do now?????


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

OK, she knows how important your marriage is to you. She is using the love you have against you. She is threatening that which you hold most dear. At this point I don't think another counseling session will do any good at all. She is in denial of what she is doing. You have given her the message over year and years, that you will not do anything when faced with the end of your marriage. So she doesn't believe you when you say "this is it". She merely whips the "I'm leaving threat" and you cave in. Or you call a counselor. It's time Cato.


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

Thanks initfortheduration.

I have decided that my wife either A. confesses to what she has done, B. Takes a polygraph and passes, or C. we get separated and then divorced.

I am resolved. Too often I have let her charm me back or else I missed her and forgave her with no real contrition on her part. 

That version of me is dead to the world. I have hardened my heart. 

This weekend is going to be a rollercoaster. I am 100% sure that she will keep upping the ante in terms of being vicious and cruel until I break, for that is what has acheived results for her in the past. I mean sending out emails to all of our friends and both of our families announcing our pending divorce, anything to try to get me to give in. But she can save those theatrics. If she starts them I will just leave for the weekend.

_ In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud. 
Under the bludgeonings of chance 
My head is bloody, but unbowed._


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Tell her to write the e-mail, and you'll push the send button. She will bully and badger. She needs someone to watch the kids so she can have sex with other men. You need to file and have her served ASAP. Stick with the polygraph.


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

Update: 

1. I scheduled the counselor session for Monday, March 30th. She agreed to attend.

2. She is back from her trip and met me downtown this afternoon. We just drove home. I was fairly silent and businesslike with her. Answering her questions politely, but not initiating conversation. She tried being super nice to me, rubbing my arms and neck, asking me what I want to do for a movie or dinner tonight. etc. I did not give in. This is the good cop side of her. 

It will be very clear to her tonight that our marriage is on hold until she takes a polygraph or confesses. This means no sleeping in the same bed, no doing activities together and certainly no sex. I will be her business partner to keep the family running and take care of our children. The ultimatum is that I don't consider us married until this is resolved, and that this new state we're in will not last forever. She has weeks to get right, not months or years.


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Stay strong. She will try to throw you a bone. She will pretty much try to suck you in. If you feel weak. Tell her you won't have sex with her until she gets a full battery of tests for STDs. That should put a damper on plan.


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

Well, the bad cop just made her appearance. Here is a series of emails in the last 30 minutes.

Her: "You are making it so we are apart. Making it much easier not to want to live with you like this and care anymore. I am not going to be much more patient."

Me: "I am resolved. I need to know the truth. I have found out too many things on my own that tell me that the truth is a lot uglier than you are admitting. When I ask you questions, I NEED you to be 100% honest with me. Our relationship depends on it. If you lie about even minor details, it won't work. Without contrition, there can be no forgiveness, without forgiveness, there can be no reconciliation." 

Her: "Cato, I am resolved you won't believe me without a polygraph. There seems to be no reconciliation. Let's save the counseling fees and file the papers then then have you "hold" from your love. Goodbye Cato."

Me: "I know stuff happened you're not admitting. I'm not telling you how I know, but I KNOW. Do the right thing and admit to them. Air everything out and we can then move forward. I want you as my wife, but I need to trust you. "


----------



## marina72 (Dec 29, 2008)

cato... are you sure you really even Want this woman anymore? I am not defending her in Any way.... but the tone of your posts, seems to me like you don't even like her, much less love her. 

Don't get me wrong! I don't blame you one bit, but, after all she's done, do you really want her? I am just wondering. I guess if it were me, and my hubby had done all these things, there would be no getting the trust back, ever. But, maybe I'm wrong, I've never been in that position. I just wonder how you can get over being hurt so much by her. And what if she passes a polygraph? She is right in saying that those things are psuedo science and not reliable at all, and good liars, can pass them. 

Not that I'm saying it's not an idea, if that is what you want, but will it really and truly make you trust her? could you ever really trust a person who has done this much to deceive and hurt you? 

I just was curious. I guess it just seems like there's been so much lying on her part,and so much hurt, that polygraph or not, confession or not, how could you ever trust her in the future? 

Say she confesses to you, what you have been wanting her to. She tells you what you want to hear, that she's been sleeping with all these men. Then what? What does that accomplish? Will you still want to work it out with her, if you find out she's been having sex with mulitple partners? And even if you did forgive her, wouldn't it always be in the back of your mind? And wouldn't you always distrust her , to some extent? 

These are just questions you really have to ask yourself. I think you want her to confess more for satisfaction of not having anything kept from you, and I dont' blame you, but I am not sure it will make you feel like you think it will. It will probably just hurt you even more. And then what comes next?


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

Marina72, you raise some very important and deep issues. The real answer probably lies deep in my subconscious mind. If she did confess, then I would go to counseling with her with the goal of setting boundaries of what is and what is not appropriate in a marriage. I think she just never learned what are appropriate boundaries with other men, and she likes the exhilaration. 

But then again, maybe I'm pushing for a confession because that will give me the clarity I need to end it. I'm not saying this is the true reason, or that I'm even planning it that way, but I admit it is a possibility.

I wont debate the usefulness of polygraphs, (I happen to believe that they are quite reliable, but recognize that other smart people might not think so) but I just ask myself, if my spouse was hurting so much inside and was torn up that I had been unfaithful, I would be tripping over myself to prove to her that I was faithful. If that meant a polygraph, then I would do it. 

I even offered to her that if she failed the polygraph, that I would suspend judgment while she took a second test with a different tester (thinking that 2 independent failures would be highly damning), but she would not go for it. 

Just consider the email I found from 2 years ago where she says to herself "his sex is no better than anyone elses". These are not the words of someone who has been faithful for the past 14 years.


----------



## marina72 (Dec 29, 2008)

Oh I don't think she's been faithful either... from what you've said, it seems pretty likely that she's had sex, at least a few times, and only told you the tip of the iceberg.

As for her not knowing boundaries, well, she does know them, or she wouldn't bother to lie about things she knows full well are wrong to do when you're married. I think she is having her cake and eating it too. 
And it's kind of like you said, maybe knowing , will give you the clarity, and gumption, to make your move to be alone, and be happy. And really, if you find out, that she's slept with other men, then it would be very difficult to ever trust again.

Ask yourself this too, if she confesses , at therapy, that she's slept with mulitple men... is it likely that after that confession, she'll stop doing it? I don't think so, I think she's a serial cheater, and people like that, typically are in addictive mode. She's also got a problem with alcohol. If she's wanting to drink that much, and not able to give it up. 

So, even if you get your wish, and she tells you everything, this behavior, will most likely continue. But, with therapy , I guess there might be hope that she might change. 

Just guard your heart and mind carefully. Not that you don't, you seem very aware of your feelings and of what all this means in the long run for you, and your life. I wish things like this didn't happen to people. It just brings about so much pain.


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

Thank you Marina72 for your kind and insightful words.


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Marina has some good points. Besides a sexual addiction and alcoholism. I think that there is one other characteristic that will make it virtually impossible for her to change.

She may be a narcissist. Here are the symptoms of an emotional vampire.

1. THIS PERSON HAS ACHIEVED MORE THAN MOST PEOPLE HIS OR HER AGE.

2. THIS PERSON IS FIRMLY CONVINCED THAT HE OR SHE IS BETTER, SMARTER, OR MORE TALENTED THAN OTHER PEOPLE.

3. THIS PERSON LOVES COMPETITION, BUT IS A POOR LOSER.

4. THIS PERSON HAS FANTASIES OF DOING SOMETHING GREAT OR BEING FAMOUS, AND OFTEN EXPECTS TO BE TREATED AS IF THESE FANTASIES HAD ALREADY COME TRUE.

5. THIS PERSON HAS VERY LITTLE INTEREST IN WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE THINKING OR FEELING, UNLESS HE OR SHE WANTS SOMETHING FROM THEM.

6. THIS PERSON IS A NAME DROPPER.

7. TO THIS PERSON IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO LIVE IN THE RIGHT PLACE AND ASSOCIATE WITH THE RIGHT PEOPLE.

8. THIS PERSON TAKES ADVANTAGE OF OTHER PEOPLE TO ACHIEVE HIS OR HER OWN GOALS.

9. THIS PERSON USUALLY MANAGES TO BE IN A CATEGORY BY HIM OR HERSELF.

10. THIS PERSON OFTEN FEELS PUT UPON WHEN ASKED TO TAKE CARE OF HIS OR HER RESPONSIBILITIES TO FAMILY, FRIENDS, OR WORK GROUP.

11. THIS PERSON REGULARLY DISREGARDS RULES OR EXPECTS THEM TO BE CHANGED BECAUSE HE OR SHE IS IN SOME WAY SPECIAL.

12. THIS PERSON BECOMES IRRITATED WHEN OTHER PEOPLE DON'T AUTOMATICALLY DO WHAT HE OR SHE WANTS THEM TO DO, EVEN WHEN THEY HAVE A GOOD REASON FOR NOT COMPLYING.

13. THIS PERSON REVIEWS SPORTS, ART, AND LITERATURE BY TELLING YOU WHAT HE OR SHE WOULD HAVE DONE INSTEAD.

14. THIS PERSON THINKS MOST CRITICISMS OF HIM OR HER ARE MOTIVATED BY JEALOUSY.

15. THIS PERSON REGARDS ANYTHING SHORT OF WORSHIP TO BE REJECTION.

16. THIS PERSON SUFFERS FROM A CONGENITAL INABILITY TO RECOGNIZE HIS OR HER OWN MISTAKES. ON THE RARE OCCASIONS THAT THIS PERSON DOES RECOGNIZE A MISTAKE, EVEN THE SLIGHTEST ERROR CAN PRECIPITATE A MAJOR DEPRESSION.

17. THIS PERSON OFTEN EXPLAINS WHY PEOPLE WHO ARE BETTER KNOWN THAN HE OR SHE IS NOT REALLY ALL THAT GREAT.

18. THIS PERSON OFTEN COMPLAINS OF BEING MISTREATED OR MISUNDERSTOOD.

19. PEOPLE EITHER LOVE OR HATE THIS PERSON.

20. DESPITE THIS PERSON'S OVERLY HIGH OPINION OF HIM OR HERSELF, HE OR SHE IS REALLY QUITE INTELLIGENT AND TALENTED.

Scoring: Five or more true answers qualifies the person as a Narcissistic Emotional Vampire, though not necessarily for a diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality. If the person scores higher than ten, and is not a member of the royal family, be careful that you aren't mistaken for one of the servants.


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

It's quite possible that she is a narcissist. She fits somewhere between 5 and 10 of them, but it's tough to say since so many are quite subjective and it is a matter of degree.

Today I am just continuing to do my own thing and she hers. I asked her this morning if she wanted to talk about all this again and she said "no", that she wanted to wait until the counselor. 

She is a very needy person emotionally and blames me for these events since I "withdrew from her" all these years.

I am beginning to think I may never know the truth. I'm certainly willing to try to meet with the guy in the Las Vegas story in person to flesh out more of the truth, but I may not get it. His voice was shaking when I called him about 15 months ago on this, and I am not a violent person. 

I ask myself, if I were of the cheating mind, and had walked a female coworker to her Las Vegas hotel room and we were both drunk, and I successfully got her to passionately kiss me back, but then she abruptly said it's not a good idea, I have to admit, I probably would not say "ok, see you in the morning". I would probably have said "I understand, how about we just go in your room and talk?" Then within 5-10 minutes we would be kissing again and on to other things, with her an eager partner. This is how it happened I am sure! The inebriated man doesn't just easily give up like that. Not in such an ideal situation for sex with someone else's wife.


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

Well, the weekend was quite a trip. 

I decided on Saturday to have a heart-to-heart with her about why she did all these things, what she was thinking, and what reasonable boundaries we can establish to mak sure they don't happen again. She agreed to this conversation. It started out with 10 minutes worth of her telling me what a horrible, neglectful husband I was back then. Then I said "You're not taking responsibility for your own actions." This infuriated her. I told her I was not upset but that I had a few questions for her. 

1. How many people in total have you kissed? 

Her answer: 4

2. Who were these people?

She began by naming someone else I had not known that she "kissed" or done anything physical with, only that she "had been attracted to". I pointed out that she had never admitted this in the past. She got upset and said "why are you putting me through the inquisition?" I said "It's not an inquisition. I'm your husband and I deserve to know the truth". 

Then she admitted to kissing the man that she had heretofore only admitted to "holding hands with" (I've described this before in #2 in my first message). I pointed out that she had only admitted to holding hands with him. Then she said "maybe I didn't kiss him, I don't remember". I said "do you see this gives me no confidence in you? I would surely remember if I had kissed someone else".

Then she admitted to kissing the guy in London and the guy in Las Vegas (#3 and #4 in my original post). I said "what about the guy on the airplane that you met for lunch in Chicago?" She said "oh yeah, him too". Then I said "what about the guy who wrote you the email saying he wanted a bit more fondling with you?" She said "I don't think I kissed him".

I then pointed out that her not remembering these things was either due to the fog of drinking so much alcohol or that she has lied and is forgetting which lies she told and is having trouble keeping them straight. She then accused ME of having "kissed or who knows what else" with other women!! I said "Ok, let's both take polygraphs" . She said that her psychiatrist counselor told her to not take the polygraph because every time in the future I have my doubts about something I would ask her to do it again. I told her that if we are to stay together, besides a full confession and polygraph, I would need her to agree to not drink again with coworkers and to better establish boundaries with other men outside of our marriage. This infuriated her and the conversation ended. Then I went to sleep on the couch and she started sending me email threats about going to see a mediator to get divorced, her parents moving her to help watch the kids for her when we are divorced, etc. I said "Do what you have to do, but know that I will protect my interests"

Then on Sunday, she was nice again, trying to soft-talk me into being friendly with her again, trying to run my back, inviting me to various events she has going on. I maintained an air of indifference and said "no thanks". I was polite and refused to get upset, and instead focused on doing things with my children. I cooked a large St. Patrick's day meal, which we all ate, but I treated her as a business partner for our children, not my wife. Last night I slept on the couch again and she came down and kissed me good morning, tried to rub my back again, and was sugar sweet as can be. I maintained my air of indifference and said "no thank you" to her offers. She keeps saying how much she misses and loves me.

I have lately been toying around with the idea of going out to bars late multiple nights with unmarried male friends of mine, going to "networking dinners" with female colleagues and old friends, and basically SHOWING her how it feels. She has been able to have everything she wants so far, which is a successful husband providing for her and also mostly home where she knows he is with the kids, while she goes out and cavorts with multiple other men in bars and restaurants til 1am under the guise of "work".

I think I have 4 options.

1. File for divorce. 
2. Push the idea of seeing a mediator to separate
3. Start making her nervous that something is up with me and other women (buy a separate cell phone, have large blocks of unaccounted time, come home late, etc.)
4. Continue ignoring her except for family business related issues (I mean things concerned with our children)

I don't want to file for divorce yet as I'm worried about custody issues with the kids. If her "good cop" act ends and she starts turning mean again, scheduling time with a mediator might be the best option to show her I am serious. Regardless, I am going to continue ignoring her.


----------



## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

cato1788 said:


> I have lately been toying around with the idea of going out to bars late multiple nights with unmarried male friends of mine, going to "networking dinners" with female colleagues and old friends, and basically SHOWING her how it feels. She has been able to have everything she wants so far, which is a successful husband providing for her and also mostly home where she knows he is with the kids, while she goes out and cavorts with multiple other men in bars and restaurants til 1am under the guise of "work".
> 
> I think I have 4 options.
> 
> ...


You have the moral high ground here, don’t stoop to these kinds of tactics. She is the one who has broken trust not you. It will only validate her behavior and could hurt your position in a divorce. She obviously doesn’t honor her vows so your tit-for-tat won’t mean much. I suspect the request to stop drinking at business events angered her more than the request to stop kissing other men. I’d opt to schedule a moderator as I think that would have more impact on her then this option. You’ve handled a bad situation very well here. Continue to be the kind of man you can be proud of.


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

She won't take a polygraph because you know she slept with them. You need to semen test kits.....several of them. Then you need to test her panties. When ever she goes on a business trip or is out all night. This will confirm what you suspect. I wouldn't worry about custody. You also need to start taping conversations with her. You need to threaten divorce or the polygraph. And tell her that her therapist can pound sand. Its the polygraph or divorce. If she chooses divorce. You know she has been catting around. You have to push the issue. And keep up the cold shoulder. She will continue to try to seduce you. To suck you (literally) back under her control. Don't do it. Stay strong.


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

So last night was more of the same. I came home, she was as sugary sweet as can be, and I bascially just ignored her the whole time, was focusing on my kids, and then I slept in a spare bedroom. She woke up early this morning to fly to Arizona for a 1-night trip. Just now I got the following email at work:

----------------------------------
Title: "Soul mate or not?" 

I am tired of feeling like i live with a roomate and investigator. you are either my soulmate or not an either sleep in our bed or not. No hanging that emotionally every day wondering. 

You decide and we can work things out or we mediate immediately. I am too tired to keep waiting to see how this ends. 
-----------------------------------

My first inclination is to ignore this email, but I am trying to figure out if she is opening the door to a full confession. If so, I want to help her do the right thing and tell me everything. But I don't quite know how to respond and get that.


----------



## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

hmmm....i would not hold your breath as far as a full confession. You are both being very strong in keeping your stance so I would imagine this will continue to go back and forth.

I don't know what reservations she has with opening up to you, but it could be a number of things...knowing the right thing to do is to stop drinking after work and she's not willing to sacrifice that part of her life for your marriage, denying up until this point makes her feel that opening up is not possible now (afraid of the 'i told you so' reaction) or afraid that it will really now be in your court to decide whether you can move forward or not.

She throws 'soulmate' around but really if you were her soulmate, she would feel comfortable opening up to you & wouldn't be doing things that in her own words are 'BAD, BAD, BAD'. I read this latest email as her again trying to get you to give in to what she wants and drop all of your probing for the truth. I think the fact that she cannot even remember kissing or not kissing, etc. gives you every reason to worry about what she's up to.

If it were me, I'd do some looking up on 'soulmate' and decide what it means for you...and let her know that you agree you need to be soulmates and this is how you see that working...to really have a loving, trusting marriage, she will need to have a little patience and understanding of your feelings, but it seems she just wants you to have blind faith, yet has given you many reasons to not be comfortable with that.


----------



## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

swedish said:


> If it were me, I'd do some looking up on 'soulmate' and decide what it means for you...and let her know that you agree you need to be soulmates and this is how you see that working...to really have a loving, trusting marriage, she will need to have a little patience and understanding of your feelings, but it seems she just wants you to have blind faith, yet has given you many reasons to not be comfortable with that.


:iagree:

Well said Swedish.


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

This is actually very consistent with her previous actions when we have argued. I do very strongly wonder whose rules the reconciliation will take place under. 

I feel like I have mentally prepared myself for the long, painful march to divorce if that's how this needs to go. To step off that path now only to go on it again later when I can't stop thinking about her infidelity will be very painful.

When she says mediate, that means a legal mediator to prepare for a separation / divorce.

There's still the counselor on the 30th of this month with whom I have made an appointment, so I could structure something about that in there as well.

I feel like her pain right now is very real, but she is trying to use a carrot (be my soulmate) and stick (I'll divorce you if I don't get what I want) approach and that I would be a fool to fall into this trap.


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Call her bluff. Set up a mediator for the day after the counseling app. Put it to her like this. Truth, polygraph of divorce. Mediator is set up for tomorrow.


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

It just got a lot more complicated. After not talking to each other all last night, I get the following email:

"I have also thought long and hard on this and can't live with your rules you want to put on me and your constant investigations and distrust. I dont want to pretend to spend another "happy anniversary with you" this Friday. Why dont we seperate for awhile and figure out if we are really good for each other. My gut tells me as friends and parents to our kids yes. As soul mates. No."

My first instinct is to write back "Well, if being able to conceal the truth from your husband is more important than our marriage, then I guess I have no choice but to separate"


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

She just emailed me and said "What are your rules? Same? No drinking with coworkers?"

I replied:

"I don't want to impose rules on you. That will make you feel like you are in a caged marriage and will only breed resentment. I want to have a completely open counselor-assisted dialogue about the past, figure out why it happened, how to rebuild trust through full disclosure, and then collaboratively come up with reasonable boundaries for us in the marriage so that what happened 6 times doesn't happen again. I have an open mind on what those behavior guidelines can be for both of us going forward, but I do think that you need to take some responsibility for what happened in the past. I feel like you have not done that so far."

No reply yet.

I think the danger in all of this is that she is not even admitting the truth to herself. The truth is so ugly that to admit it to herself would mean taking responsibility for what happened. I need to seriously prepare myself for the possibility of divorce.


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

cato1788 said:


> She just emailed me and said "What are your rules? Same? No drinking with coworkers?"
> 
> I replied:
> 
> ...



I agree, she is negotiating for one reason. She wants an open marriage. She wants to have her cake and eat it to. She wants a live in babysitter so she can go out and have fun and sex. You are also right regarding her not being able to face what she has done. She does not want to go to a counselor and deal with it. I wouldn't even suggest counseling with her attitude. I would be "lets blame cato". You know my opinion. She has to want to save your marriage. Not for convenience, not for a babysitter, but because she loves you deeply. Do not settle for less. You deserve a loving and committed wife. As she deserves the same out of her husband (which you impress me as) like you.
Stand your ground. Separate finances. File for divorce. You don't need a roommate.


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

She is clearly living in an alternate reality. I'm very pessimistic now that our marriage can be saved.

I received the following from her:

"I take responsibility for my actions. You have it in writing forever since you don’t seem like you can’t hear from it from me enough. You asked me earlier this weekend that I ‘couldn’t do this and that’ so I am glad you have changed your mind on that. If you want me to go ahead and meet with the counselor, then I am happy to but know I am NOT taking a polygraph or taking the rules you gave me. So if that is your purpose for the meeting then we won’t be needing to meet the counselor." 

I then replied (using some of your suggested text initfortheduration - thank you very much).

"Responsibility for one's actions is WAY more than saying "I take responsibility for my actions". That is just paying lip-service. Taking responsibility begins by not blaming others for things that you did, it is complete, full and honest disclosure about everything that happened, and it is agreeing to reasonable boundaries with people outside our marriage so it won't happen again. In what ways have you taken responsibility for your actions? All I heard on Saturday night was more blaming me for what happened over the period of 10 years, and refusals to change any of the behaviors that led my wife to be in those situations. I continue to hear about how it is my issue that I can't get past this, which we both know is blaming me for what you did. 

I still have heard a reasonable explanation for why you steadfastly refuse to take a polygraph? Don't you see that more than anything else this refusal tells me there is more that you have not told me? Why am I so willing to take one yet you are not? I am not afraid of the truth, no matter how ugly it is. Whatever the truth is, I can live with it and work together with you to save and rebuild our marriage. The truth is a necessary and critical part of that. Not knowing for sure what happened means I fill in the blanks with the worst thoughts possible and it erodes my trust for you daily. I know much more than you think I know about what happened in London. I know with 100% certainty that I am not hearing the whole story about what happened there. 

For this to have any chance of working, YOU have to also want to save our marriage. Not for convenience, not for the children, not for finances, not for appearances with friends and family, not for having me as a babysitter so you can go out at night and drink, but because you LOVE me deeply. I deserve a loving and committed wife who is with me ALL IN - not half of the way in - ALL IN, with no secrets. I won't settle for less. And you deserve the same out of your husband, which I hope to be."


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Excellent response. If she comes back with this rules crap again if I can make another suggestion or two. Tell her this.

You keep bringing up my rules. They are not my rules. THEY WERE YOUR VOWS. You gave them freely with no sunset on your love. Somehow your vows became my rules. I guess turning your vows into my rules allow you to seek out pleasures that any loving wife would have a troubled conscious if not a complete breakdown of sorrow over what she has done. So please, lets be truthful with one another on this issue.

The other issue is this friendship you desire with me. How could anyone count on someones friendship who has cheated and lied to the other time and time again. How could it be considered friendship when one friend has no respect for the others feelings and openly derides this friend to her other friends. How could it be called friendship when the most deepest connection of love has been betrayed by that friend. Let me make one thing clear, a friend does not sacrifice the other friends heart in the name of partying and sex with others. 

And I disagree with your view on a polygraph test. It is not for me to bash you over your head for what you have done. I know that you have been unfaithful. A polygraph test would be used by me to do one thing, give us a fresh start, so I can put the past behind us. And restore my faith and love in you. Maybe you think if I know everything, I could not possibly forgive you. This is another area where you give me little or no credit. YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF EITHER MY CAPACITY TO LOVE OR FORGIVE YOU. IT WOULD ALMOST BE FUNNY IF IT WASN'T SO SAD THAT YOU COULD BE MARRIED TO ME FOR SO LONG AND STILL NOT KNOW ME. EVERYTHING I AM DOING THAT YOU BELIEVE IS ATTACKING YOU IS COMPLETELY OFF BASE. I DO THIS BECAUSE YOU HAVE DAMAGED THE SOUL OF MY MATE. AND I WANT NOTHING MORE THEN TO RESTORE THAT SOUL AND TREASURE IT.

I hope some of this is useful.


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

Yes, it is extremely useful! Thank you.

We all know if this was being refereed by an impartial observer, my logic and reason would carry the day and she would have to admit what she had done. However, instead, I get emotional responses, not grounded in logic, while she tells her network of support (mostly never-married or divorced girlfriends) only those facts which support her case and make me look like an unreasonable ogre. I've never seen anyone so willing to believe their own lies as she is.


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

I think women's single friends are a greater threat then any man to a marriage. Why? Because they plant the seeds of discontent and then water them with the spit from their wagging tongues. They don't like any woman being happily married if their not.


----------



## marina72 (Dec 29, 2008)

oh come on , what you said above was just so off base. That's a Huge generalization, and it's not true, or fair, it's also very insulting to all women. 

Wow, you have a pretty low opinion of women in general initfortheduration... 

That is sad. Women don't just naturally or consciously plant the seeds of discontent, I'm sure men are able to do that to their wives, all on their own, imagine... 

It's just simply a bunch of bunk that women, with other women friends, don't want their friends to be happily married. that is just so silly. I've never heard of such. And you insult women in general by saying something so degrading. 
I happen to know someone right now, my Sister, who is having marital problems, and I've listened when she wants to talk, and I've tried to help her , and point out some things that she could improve on, and that he could too, but for the most part, she knows I can't get too involved, because things regarding her marriage need to be her business, his business and any decision she makes needs to be her own, without influence from family, or friends. 

You need to give women a Little more credit than that. You make us all out to be low, sedistic, evil, bottom feeding vampires, who hate men. It's just not so...

Let's be fair here please... Geezzzzz LOL


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

I did not mean to paint all women with a broad brush. I should have better defined it as married women out with single women partying. But you need to read more of these infidelity site stories. And another point. She is your sister. You want whats best for her. Some (SOME) women who claim to be friends. Will in fact entice married friends out for GNOs. And encourage bad behavior. 

Question. when people get drunk are they more content or less content? Do they tend to focus on positive things or negative. Alcohol is a depressant. Maybe I should have narrowed it down to partying with single girl friends (drinking).

You want more proof. How about this. When men get married, do women prefer that they drop their single friends?


My wife has single girl friends but they don't party. Movies, dinners, vacations (weekends, to a few days). 

I do not have a low opinion of women as my wife and I celebrate our 29 anniversary next week. 

I am also equally as hard on men partying, when they have responsibilities and families. There is a difference though between men and women in the party seen. Men generally don't speak about their feelings and relationships to other guys. 
Whether its good or bad. Men will talk about work, or sports, guns, cars many things. Women will focus on relationships and communication. Do you deny this?

I may give one more example. In marriage, who generally is the better communicator when it comes to relationship. Who puts more emphasis on it men or women? Who generally is the open one? And for as much as this is a positive in situations. It can also have negative bias in other situations. Such as a bar scene with single girl friends. 

In closing, men have no less or more faults then women. There are negative things about men too, that in some areas are far greater then women. Such as physical violence. If I were to tell you that men were more violent then women. Would you agree with me or would you say that I have a low opinion of men?


----------



## marina72 (Dec 29, 2008)

your last line there is comparing apples to oranges, at least to me.

I don't know that men are "more" violent, they're just stronger.

I think plenty of women have violent tempers, but they can't very well beat up on their hubby's, as all the man would have to do, is put his arms around her and squeeze and she's can't do anything.

Women commit violent crime every day in this country. Sad... that anyone does stuff like that.

I do know women, And men, that are prone to partying, egg their friends on, I suppose that is a personality trait, subject to each person, no matter what their sex.

Think about men, and their buddies at bachelor parties... talk about pressure.

I just don't feel that your statement was true in any sense, except a specific one, meaning there are some people, whether male or female, that will do that kind of thing, that you mentioned, planting the seeds of discontent, and I dont' deny some women do that stuff with their girlfriends, but it's not a "woman" thing... just as violence is not a "man" thing. It's just a**holes hanging out with their friends, trying to get their buddy , or girlfriend, to do something they'll regret. 

I think it's mostly this guys wife's fault, that she can't control herself, with drinking, Or with her sex drive. I don't think it's her friends, although they are probably egging her on when they're out partying.

I wouldn't know though, as I don't go out and party, with anyone, but either my hubby, or my family , all of us together. We usually just gather at my Mom's, and we'll all cook out, have a big play day for the kids, and we drink, but it's family. And we know when to quit too. 

Anyway, you make valid points, I just didn't think it could be narrowed down to a woman thing.

I hope Cato gets some resolution to his wife's issues. 

It's a very sad situation, that she's acting like an 18 year old college student.


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Not to put to fine a point on it. But men are far more violent and aggressive then women. It is hormonal. Testosterone is a large factor in this. Men on men and men on women violent assaults and murder far exceed that of women on women or women on man violence. Its the same with sexual assault. Men far exceed women in this area also. Again testosterone plays a big factor in this. Just look at the statistics readily available on the internet.

And yes, I hope cato can get resolution and some peace in this situation. But It looks like it will be through the fire and not around it.


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

Well, it has taken a bizarre twist.

She is now agreeing to a polygraph if I agree that if she passes the polygraph, that I will grant her a divorce. 

Clearly she is trying to create a false dilemma. This way I can never have what I want, which is a wife that did not cheat on me. However, I am convinced that she did indeed have sex with someone else.

Therefore, my response? "Yes, I agree to this. Thank you for finally facing the facts and doing the right thing. I know this was very difficult for you to do."

However, now she is starting to put multiple caveats on it such as I need to pre-agree to various divorce issues, (custody, property, finances, etc.)

I'm going to tell her that I'm scheduling the appointment. I'm calling her bluff.


----------



## marina72 (Dec 29, 2008)

oh I'm sorry Cato... man it sounds like she's just playing games with you here. 

I am starting to think that you'd be better off without her. If you're sure she's cheated, knowing the details will only hurt you more. And she sounds like she's not willing to change her ways, stop partying, and start being the wife you deserve. I hope you two can work this out. She sounds like a huge narcissist.


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

She is truly one of the worst manipulators that I have ever seen. Definitely call her bluff. Tell her to quit massaging her agreement to the polygraph, and that you will obviously negotiate any settlement through a mediator to settle things as inexpensively as possible.


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

I agree with marina. But I find it fascinating that she just will not admit it. If she wants a divorce she could file at any time. Why does she insist on this game? I think it could be that she really can't face her morally bankrupt position. 

Cato, do you have any doubt that she will back out of this agreement? The one point is that you will be able to show her for what she is, a lying, cheating, adulterated, pompous hypocrite.


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

Thinking through various schemes and subplots is NOT her strong suit. That's why it's been fairly easy to catch her in lies. As evidence of that, get this!: She said "OK, we'll go to the test and you will see that I did not have S&x with anyone in London. Then I said "perhaps not, but I'm still convinced you did elsewhere during our marriage, which is why the question on the polygraph will be general in scope". She then said "fine, you'll see what an F'ing idiot you are". I calmly said "OK".

I am going to schedule the test today. The reason is that I can't go on like this. I need to know the truth. I first though want to create the conditions for her confession, which of course is much more valuable than a polygraph result. To that end, I keep telling her "look, I know I wasn't a perfect husband, but I also know that I have an incredible capability for compassion and forgiveness, especially to the mother of my four children, whom I love".

I'm going to keep down this track for awhile and see if she agrees to the test once it is set up. My stance on agreeing to the divorce is "well, if that's what you want, then you have my word as a man of honor than I will grant you a divorce, with an equitable split of property and custody, always keeping the children's best interests in mind".


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Try to limit discussion of the polygraph. Don't dwell on it with her. After she goes through the polygraph (if she fails) have all your other intelligence together. She might breakdown and give you a complete airing of the affair.


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

We're going to see a counselor for 1 hour this afternoon. She'll try her best to dilute the conversation by focusing on my faults. This will be the biggest challenge for me today.

Things have been going fairly well for us the last 10 days or so. I have a feeling that she is going to confess something today. perhaps not everything, but more than she has in the past.

My tactic during the meeting will be to keep stressing "I love you but I need to know the truth before we can move forward together, and I don't believe you are being fully honest with me"


----------



## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Good luck, let us know how it went.


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Good luck, 

Be direct. Ask her 

Are you satisfied with the marriage we have?

Is this what you think a good marriage looks like? 

Don't you want more?

Do you think our children would look upon the things you are doing with other and approve of it?

Do you think that having brief encounters and random hookups with men you have just met, makes you feel loved and appreciated?

Do you think that these men are interested in who you really are or just wanting to get drunk and have sex with you?

Do you think that their lust can compare to my deep abiding love for you?

Are you doing things with them that are bringing us closer together or pulling us further apart?


----------



## WhatToThink (Mar 30, 2009)

Wow, lots and lots of indiscretions... She really needs to grow up. YOU need to stick up for yourself!!! These "little" kisses that seem so harmless are WRONG. She is not respecting you and if it was me, I would have given her a second and then maybe a third strike and then said LATER!! She needs to quit the drinking, as she is not a responsible adult when she drinks, but instead turns into a horny teenager. And she needs to remember the meaning of love and commitment. If I were you, I'd leave her.


----------



## JDPreacher (Feb 27, 2009)

You know, to me it sounds like she made some mistakes, she realizes that she did and wants to move past them and possibly save the marriage but your foolish insistence on a polygraph test is ruining any chance you would have to save the marriage.

Polygraphs are useless and a fools argument for anything differently, I am an ordained minister and I have lied and passed a polygraph and I have told the truth and failed the damn thing so it's obviously not a good indicator of someone's integrity.

You need to stop playing games, man up, show her what you know and how and then figure out what you want to do...you are only making it worse for yourself and for her by playing this childish game that just keeps going back and forth.

From what I can gather she is trying to move on and you keep badgering her for a polygraph...the question is, do you both want to save the marriage? If so then drop the polygraph crap, find some common ground and work on the marriage and yourselves. If not then get out and be done...

Blessed Be,
Preacher


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

JDPreacher said:


> You know, to me it sounds like she made some mistakes, she realizes that she did and wants to move past them and possibly save the marriage but your foolish insistence on a polygraph test is ruining any chance you would have to save the marriage.
> 
> Polygraphs are useless and a fools argument for anything differently, I am an ordained minister and I have lied and passed a polygraph and I have told the truth and failed the damn thing so it's obviously not a good indicator of someone's integrity.
> 
> ...


The problem is preacher is that she still doesn't admit to anything. Unless some one admits to messing up. They are doomed to repeat it. For instance, I would not fire someone for making a bad decision in business. I would fire someone if they didn't admit to it. Not admitting to it or confessing it, means that they are unteachable. At this point based upon how many indiscretions she has had. And then the fact that she admits to only what is found out, and then only begrudgingly, with no remorse. Implies that you are dead wrong. She wants to sweep it under the rug with no commitment to end the infidelities. The polygraph is an excellent tool, even if only used as a threat. A person who is really deceitful and can coolly lie, may be able to pass with flying colors. Others may not. I guess its based on how much experience you have in lying and your familiarity with polygraph test. You want Cato to bury his head in the sand, and hope that she will change? Cato is the best judge of what methods he needs to use to assure himself that she will either come clean or show her contempt and disrespect for him by continuing to treat him like a fool.


----------



## JDPreacher (Feb 27, 2009)

He's playing games and using a fools tool to try and get some kind of superior satisfaction...it's childish and a waste of time. Far more could have and would have been gained by now if the polygraph went away eons ago.

She has admitted to some liberties with people who are not her husband and he supposedly has proof of others that he wants her to admit to, show her what proof there is and argue from there, stop the petty bickering over some stupid polygraph.

Threats in a marriage are pointless and cruel and do more damage than anything else. That's tantamount to an ultimatum and no one responds well to those...by forcing the issue of the polygraph she has dug her heels in even further so it's counter productive.

I never said bury his head in the sand, I said quite simply, grow up, stop being childish about this and decide what course of action he wants to take and stop playing silly games over some unreliable device to vindicate yourself. If Mr. Cato is so steadfast about this and is this controlling and unrelenting in other aspects of the marriage then I can see where the wife would need recourse or another outlet because quite honestly, Mr. Cato sounds like a boorish ass.

Blessed Be,
Preacher


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

You gotta love this. Or rather cato's wife would love this. His wife is getting drunk and screwing several guys, while cato stays at home with his four kids. He has an issue with this and confronts her with the facts. She denies it and continues to lie an gaslight him. He pushes for her to come clean and tells her he wants her to take a polygraph test. And who shows up on the scene? The Honorable Right Reverend JD Preacher. The cheating spouses advocate and best friend. Who with a few strokes on his keyboard justifies and absolves the cheater and then turns his all knowing and caring compassion on the victim by calling him names. Who is proud of the fact that he is able to lie and beat polygraph tests. The defender of the deceitful. The persecutor of the innocent. A theologian of the first order. Founding member and sole parishioner of the on line ministry of "Cheaters Church".  A humble man of adultery advocacy. Who patrols the infidelity boards looking for converts to his mission field of attacking the victims of adultery. Who's sixteen posts have displayed a level of compassion and understanding not seen since the.....since the......since the...well, its really never been seen before. Who will spare no betrayed spouse in his journey to encourage and support the wanton destruction of marriages, by caving in to the cheaters desire to eat cake and continue their deceitful, and treacherous game of adultery. I stand in awe of his intellect.


----------



## JDPreacher (Feb 27, 2009)

I've always been the one cheated on and if I had something to put on the table, that's where it went. I don't advocate cheating nor do I absolve anyone from doing so...what she did is wrong and Mr. Cato being upset is justifiable. What he is attempting to do is just as wrong and doing nothing more than playing a game, much as she did, so he is no better, spurned yes, but no better.

The world is full of passifists, no one wants to just lay it out there anymore, too worried about hurting someone's feelings or making them feel bad about themselves...you don't learn anything like that and life is and should be a learning experience.

Blessed Be,
Preacher


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

I filed for divorce two weeks ago. We'll split our assets evenly and share custody of our kids 50/50. Her not coming clean about the infidelty was a big reason for my filing. Ultimately, I realized two things: First, a man (or a woman) should be able to have full confidence in their partner's fidelity. I did not, and she didn't seem to care. Second, I found continued evidence of her throwing herself and aggressively flirting with male coworkers. When I confronted her on this, she said "you're just jealous because they are "execs". 

So I filed. 

Trust me, there are many more reasons that I don't want to go into here, but I feel very good about this, like the weight of the world is off my shoulders and I'll be able to provide a much better environment for my kids during the time that I have them


----------



## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

I hope you're taking her for child support and alimony. Her last comments show just how morally corrupt she is. There is someone out there for you, who will love you and not cheat. Good luck. Stay strong.


----------



## cato1788 (Mar 12, 2009)

Thanks Init, for these comments as well as all of your insights a few months ago. You've got an ability to cut through the BS and really get to the heart of the matter, and I am very confident that I'm doing the right thing.

So often I hear and read about people rationalizing their bad situations and trying to wish away the problem. You've always advocated a "take the bull by the horns" mentality which I think is most often what is needed. No married person should have to wonder every day if their spouse is faithful to them.


----------

