# i don't think this is OK, but want general opinions



## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

as i believe i've mentioned before, one of the issues w/my wife is that i don't feel that she's pulling her fair share of duties around the house. our house is a wreck to the point that our three kids have never had a play date over at our house because it's too much of a wreck. i will occasionally make headway but she never bothers keeping up with the progress i make. it's like trying to hold back a forest fire with an eyedropper.

anyway, the point of this post is this: i've been looking for an email sent to our shared email address since last thursday. i don't use it often, but it is both our complete names and we both use it. so it's shared. 

when i first went in last thursday, i saw that she had purchased a couple books for her ereader that day. she is a voracious reader and i've suspected that a lot of the reason that little gets done is because she's reading when i'm at work and the kids are away at school. of course, that's tough to prove...

i went back yesterday and discovered that she had bought two more books. that means that in six days, she's read two books. on average, they're between 350-400 pages each. break that out, that's about 350-400 pages every three days... if you read 60 pages an hour, that's about two hours of reading a day. that got me thinking, wondering if i could document how much she'd read. so i did a quick email search and found that she had bought 20 books from barnes and noble since jan 8. 

two issues: 1. i feel guilty for snooping, but it confirmed my suspicions. so it's hard to feel all that guilty.

2. if each book takes five hours to read (being generous, it's probably more), that is one hell of a lot of time out the window. that 100 hours at least tossed out the window in about a month and a half. if i had 100 hours to kick around, our house would be freaking spotless. so yes, i'm pissed.

now, trying to take her perspective, there are times where she's waiting on the kids. she likes to take them to soccer practice (where she takes her ereader), but during that time, i have the one or two kids who don't have practice and i'm usually either cleaning or doing homework with them.

she reads at night a lot, even past when i go to sleep, so i'm not sure how much. but even at that, she wakes up exhausted in the morning, claiming insomnia. pretty sure that it's book-borne insomnia. 

so to put it in a tight little package, i am hot. where i'm at now is that i'm going to monitor the email address more closely, print out the receipts and present them to her after three months, six months, however long i can hold out to make the case stronger. 

strangely, this has actually made me calmer at home. i'm usually on edge when i get home and nothing's been done because i'm wondering exactly she's been doing. now that i know, it's almost a relief.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You got a lot of advice and suggestions in your first thread. I am wondering how many of them you have implemented?

Now that you know what she's doing all day, why bother to confront her? What are you going to tell her? What are you hoping she will do?

If she's reading instead of cleaning, I really think she may be depressed. Has she gone to a doc? Have you looked into MC?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Is she using the books as an escape of some sort?


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

I read your other thread too. I think your snooping and evidence gathering is a giant waste of time and energy. You already know what the problem is. It really doesn't matter exactly how many books she reads or exactly how many hours a day it takes up, because it obviously takes up too much time. And that's obviously not the underlying problem, just a symptom of it. Your wife is not someone who you can just simply convince "Instead of reading 4 books a week, read 2 and spend the other half of the time cleaning."


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

In fact, I think you are using this theorizing as a way to avoid confronting her. It sounds to me like you do not confront her very much about these problems, am I right?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Have you spoken with your W about the state of the house? As your W is obviously a SAHM, you have a right to expect her to keep up her end of the bargain: You go out to work. She contributes by taking care of the children and the house.

If your W doesn't want to do work around the house, suggest that she seeks part-time employment and you hire a cleaner.

There's no easy way around this (and I wouldn't confront her over the books at this stage), and you have to let her know that you're unhappy with the mess at home.


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## melw74 (Dec 12, 2013)

I agree with you. I could not live in a messy house, I am not saying i do not spend a lot of time on my laptop as i would be lying, but i have my priority's.

My husband, my children and my home comes first, this is how i believe it should be.

My husband works fulltime, he looks after me by providing and i look after him the kids and the home.

Old fashioned..... most definitely .

To be honest, I could not live in a wreck, I get up get the kids ready and sorted for school, then i clean my house take care of what needs to be done, then its me time.

No, i do not think its Okay for your wife to be like this really, its good shes doing something she likes, as you say reading, but not neglecting everything else while she does it is not Okay in my opinion.

Have you spoken to your wife about the issue of your home??.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

He has spoken to her - he talks about it in his other thread. I think she's just incapable at this time to do what she knows she should be doing, and he isn't going to resolve this without outside help, first for his wife, and secondly with the house.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

If you kids are of the ages where they are in school full time, why is she still staying home all day anyway?? She should go out and get a job, especially since she is clearly not pulling any weight around the home. What a load of crap, I can fully understand why you feel the way you do. You need to make things change, and it sounds like there needs to be some not so pretty confrontations.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> He has spoken to her - he talks about it in his other thread. I think she's just incapable at this time to do what she knows she should be doing, and he isn't going to resolve this without outside help, first for his wife, and secondly with the house.


Then the sooner he addresses the underlying issues the better.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Haven't seen your other thread that people are talking about, but based upon what I see here -

Recognize that her needs are not being fully met. She is caught up in "escape" activities. Everyone needs a break once in a while but obviously it's become out of control with her. That's because there is a void in her life that she's trying to fill. Many women (and men) do this also with games on their phones/computers, shopping, television, or even more detrimental habits like gambling, drinking, etc.

You need to identify what needs of hers are unfulfilled. She may or may not be able to tell you, it may be subconscious on her behalf. Are you doing your part? Not with chores, but in meeting her emotional needs. Does she feel valued, appreciated, special? Not in your opinion, but in HER opinion? Do you take her out on romantic dates regularly, with no strings attached? Do you tell her specifically why you appreciate her and specifically what you love about her, about her personality as well as her physical attributes? Do you connect with her every day, letting her tell you what's on her mind and what's going on in her world, listening with genuine interest (prodding her for information if necessary to get her talking), not trying to solve her problems (unless specifically asked, which is rare) but just hearing her out and affirming her feelings? Are you emotionally her rock, and consistent? Do you tell her how proud you are that she is your wife? Do you demonstrate it in your actions? Do you have fun with her, laugh with her, flirt with her?

If the answer to all those things (and hopefully there is even a lot more you are doing than that) is "yes", then it is time to confront her about her behavior. That must be done in the correct fashion as well, or else you will simply make things worse. 

But I suspect her needs are not being fully met in the first place. Sounds like she needs some excitement and appreciation in her life, and probably some meaningful connection too. Something to get her out of "housewife mom" mode for a while. Make sure you are the person she has that meaningful connection with. Let your negative emotions go for a bit and go grab a bite together at your favorite romantic restaurant and do some dancing (or whatever she likes to do). Give her that, it's easy to do, and will make you both feel better. Show her you are still the man of her dreams, and she is likely going to be much more receptive to wanting to please you and be a happy, enthusiastic, engaged partner in the relationship. Note that this is because you will be demonstrating the exact same thing to her, just in different ways.

That may seem like you are rewarding undesirable behavior, but this is deeper than that. Something is making her unhappy/unfulfilled and that's the first thing you need to address. Don't expect her to be able to tell you what it is, she may not know or her answer may change daily. That's a symptom of a woman's needs not being met. She may not know specifically what's wrong, she only knows she doesn't feel right - depressed, or anxious, or bored, etc. That's why it's your job to identify and ensure you are meeting all her needs and in the right way. It will take some effort on your behalf but she will respond much more favorably to your positive attention than your negative attention. Just stay firm at the same time so you don't present yourself as a doormat. But leave your negative emotions out of it - you can be firm and loving at the same time. In fact you must. Getting angry, whiny, argumentative, etc. in relation to your wife is weakness in a man. Calm, firm, loving confidence is always strength.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

^ Ditto.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Wow... I read through your other thread plus this one. I really feel for you. I was a stay-at-home-mom for 20 years, and I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but my house was virtually spotless. And no, I'm not a clean-freak by any nature. As soon as the kids got on the bus I got right to work -- I usually had my housework, grocery shopping, paperwork, errands done by noon or one o'clock. Then I had an hour or two to sit down, drink a cup of tea, read for a bit or meet a friend for lunch or coffee. Then, it was time for the kids to come home and start all over with the crazy afternoon and getting dinner going.

What was her childhood home like growing up? Was it a junk heap too? If so, this may be her idea of normal.

In order to operate efficiently, every house needs "systems." A system for the laundry, a system for paperwork, bills, and filing. A system for actual cleaning and sanitizing. A system for picking up clutter. Personally, I divided up the week like this: 

Monday was grocery day -- I went to the store early in the morning and bought all the food for the week. 

Tuesday was errand day -- I tried to run all the non-grocery errands on the same day -- bank, dry cleaner, pharmacy, post office, veterinarian, etc. 

Wednesday was a FREE day to have lunch with friends, go to a class, hair salon, shopping, or lay around and read all day  (heck, I figured I deserved it after how hard I worked all week) 

Thursday was housecleaning day -- cleaning bathrooms, mopping the kitchen, washing windows or cleaning out closets, etc. 

And Friday was Desk/Paperwork day -- paying bills, making phone calls, scheduling the calendar, filing, coupon clipping, and planning the next week's menus and grocery list. I sat at that desk and worked my way through everything until it was either dealt with, filed, or pending action from someone else.

Saturday was usually a quick trip to the grocery just to get munchies for the weekend. 

Sunday was family day to do whatever. Absolutely NO housework was scheduled on that day!

As for laundry, I did one load every night (darks one night, whites the next), wash, dry, fold, put away. This way, there are never mountains of laundry. And your kids are plenty old enough to put their own laundry away. Get each kid a basket and make them put it away. 

Forget the housekeeping/cleaning service until the clutter is under control. It might be beneficial to hire a professional organizer to help her get things straightened up and get her systems in place. They work wonders and I've seen homes transformed in a matter of days. Your wife truly may not have the skill set to juggle many things at once and keep things organized. She can learn all of this.

The ridiculous amount of time she spends reading has got to stop. In my mind, it IS an escape from something. Personally, I would confront her NOW about all the reading she's doing. You already have enough evidence that her purchases are way beyond the norm. Plus she is spending A LOT of money if she's buying that many books. Why doesn't she go to the library? It's free.

As for the kids, the rule at my house was nobody goes anywhere until their rooms were cleaned. Saturday morning was their time to get their rooms in order. Birthday party Saturday afternoon? Fine, but you're not going if your room isn't picked up. Outside to play? Fine, but nobody goes out until the rooms are done. And then follow through.

And your kids (even the 4 year old) are old enough to make up their beds EVERY morning. My kids had comforters; it literally took them less than 30 seconds to pull up the covers. A made bed instantly transforms a room and maybe they will start to take some pride in their personal space.

One fun thing I used to do with my kids: every day, before their dad got home from work, we had the "5 o'clock, 5 minute pick up." I would blast something fun on the stereo, set the timer, each kid would grab an empty basket and go around picking up things that didn't belong in the room and putting them back where they go. We often laughed as they raced around trying to grab things and it became quite an enjoyable competition. It was a quick, fun way to get the house picked up and I know my husband appreciated coming home to an orderly house with the smell of dinner going.

I agree with all the other advice given to you so far.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

justtryin said:


> Haven't seen your other thread that people are talking about, but based upon what I see here -
> 
> Recognize that her needs are not being fully met. She is caught up in "escape" activities. Everyone needs a break once in a while but obviously it's become out of control with her. That's because there is a void in her life that she's trying to fill. Many women (and men) do this also with games on their phones/computers, shopping, television, or even more detrimental habits like gambling, drinking, etc.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but this is NOT going to work. Whatever the root of the problem is here, it's far FAR deeper than needing a little more positive attention from hubby. She is behaving almost like an addict - escaping all the time, checked out of her life. Her degree of neglect sounds almost pathological. She and/or they probably need counseling.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

John Lee said:


> Sorry, but this is NOT going to work. Whatever the root of the problem is here, it's far FAR deeper than needing a little more positive attention from hubby. She is behaving almost like an addict - escaping all the time, checked out of her life. Her degree of neglect sounds almost pathological. She and/or they probably need counseling.


With all due respect John, read my response again, a little more closely. I know it's long but you're here interacting on this site, so you may as well commit to it. 

Also, ask yourself what harm is going to come of making sure her needs are fully met in the relationship, that she is fulfilled and satisfied within it. This is something that should be done regardless, in any healthy relationship. It doesn't require an appointment with a counselor and it doesn't cost anything. But the rewards are invaluable. Unfortunately most men have the wrong idea of what "meeting her needs" is, they don't take the time and the responsibility to really identify them and meet them consistently, thus the resentment and frustration most have - women and men alike.

Typically people who are fulfilled and happy in their relationship aren't engaged in escape activities to the point that they are disregarding their responsibilities and their spouse. They tend to either not engage in the first place, or they respect and respond to their partner when confronted about it. As I mentioned, if he is confident that he is properly meeting her needs, then a proper confrontation is needed. That is step two.

If both of those things are and have been addressed already, then yes, something else is going on. But my money is on this.

I'm curious to know if the OP honestly believes he is fully meeting her emotional needs, at a minimum to the level I've described above...and if his wife would agree. He should show her my post and ask her how she feels about it. Forget counseling, I'm betting that right there would create a very eye-opening dialogue.

But I could be wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Ok, I just read his other thread. Actually I only read his first post and I can already see the problem. He's not going to like what I have to say but it's my honest assessment and I hope it sinks in.

OP mentions anger and frustration taking out on wife. Think her needs are being met? Think she feels appreciated and valued? Think he's her emotional rock? Think she feels emotionally safe with him?

He also mentions a lack of appreciation and respect. In other words, he's not behaving masculine enough. Remember, respect is EARNED. When a wife does not respect her husband, it's not her problem - it's his.

OP not trying to beat you up, in some part you even acknowledge your role in that post. Now it's time to do something about it. 

Stop blaming her. YOU are the leader of the relationship, so act like it. Show her you are the man of her dreams again. Show her that you are the guy who has her back, that you will not show contempt for her, resentment, disappointment. You should treat her like she's the most special woman in the world, at all times, most importantly through your actions. You can't expect her to meet your expectations if you aren't meeting hers. 

By getting angry with her and telling her your disappointment, you are devaluing her and she does not feel emotionally safe with you. You are supposed to be her knight in shining armor. This in no way means you are a doormat. It means you are calm and confident and in charge of yourself at all times when it comes to dealing with her. You can handle her. She does not rule your emotions - you do. You lead the relationship and your family, you are her emotional rock. Being this type of man, you firmly and clearly set your expectations and she has the choice to abide by them or not...but she also knows the consequences if she does not...you do not give her your masculine, loving energy in return. Right now, you can withdraw your energy from her...but since you are not currently behaving like the man of her dreams, she may not even notice it, so it probably won't work.

You need to step up your masculinity ASAP. In your other thread I see a lot of her being in charge, and you reacting to her. Lack of appreciation and respect towards you, expecting you to drop everything and do it, etc. These are all you reacting to her, as if you are afraid to confront her or afraid to stand up to her. I get the sense that when you do stand up to her, you do it angrily, emotionally. Guess what - that is still reacting to her, and fearfully. That needs to stop. This is also why her respect for you is low. If I can see your whining and complaining here in these threads, your emotional reactions to her, these non-masculine responses to her, imagine what she must be feeling. Not trying to be mean! Just pointing it out to you. This is actually a good place to vent those emotions - just do it here, not to her.

And realize this very, very important concept. A man does not fully and consistently meet his wife's needs because he wants a reward from her or expects something from her. He does it simply because he loves her. With this attitude, there is nothing to be "let down" about. Nothing to get resentful about. Nothing to get emotional in any way about. You do it because it feels good to give your love to the person you care about and love. Meanwhile you live your life according to your values, you validate yourself, you are comfortable in your own skin and you confidently lead your life and your family on your terms. This attitude guarantees that you do not become anyone's doormat. Of course you respect your wife and her input but you do not fear her reactions. Understand that when you react to her emotionally, even with anger, that it is based in fear. Fear that you can't "control" her, fear that she will be unhappy, fear that she will be emotional, fear that she will leave you, etc. When you behave in a masculine way, with firm and calm confidence, with your love and the best interests of the relationship/family in mind, you have no reason to get emotional, regardless of how she responds. This is how you get things done. Getting resentful, arguing, complaining, angry...well you see where that gets you.

I guarantee if you begin improving the way you interact with her in these ways - consistently - that she WILL eventually begin to respond favorably to you - no more need for arguments or any emotional outbursts or unreasonable escape activities or other unhealthy activities at all. She will want to please her man, her knight in shining armor, will unquestionably respond to you. Why? Because you complete her, you fill her with love and positive energy and emotions, you understand her and can handle her, she is safe with you emotionally, you will be the most valuable man on the planet to her, and she will not want to do anything to jeapordize that. 


That's all very bare bones but that's the gist of it. I've just outlined some basics. I could go on and on but the problems are becoming crystal clear to me. I'm surprised it's not worse than just escaping into books...and trust me, it will get worse if you don't start working on yourself in this relationship. I wish you the best and hope that you take my words to heart, don't want you to feel beat up just see it as a call to action. Your wife can be the wife of your dreams but it first requires YOU to be in the right frame of mind. Your children will benefit too - they will see a much happier, positively interacting mother, and their parents madly in love with each other.

For what it's worth, I speak from experience. I had some tremendous help though...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

justtryin said:


> I guarantee if you begin improving the way you interact with her in these ways - consistently - that she WILL eventually begin to respond favorably to you - no more need for arguments or any emotional outbursts or unreasonable escape activities or other unhealthy activities at all. She will want to please her man, her knight in shining armor, will unquestionably respond to you. Why? Because you complete her, you fill her with love and positive energy and emotions, you understand her and can handle her, she is safe with you emotionally, you will be the most valuable man on the planet to her, and she will not want to do anything to jeapordize that.


I think a lot of what you say is right, but this is just flat wrong. It's like magical thinking -- "everything is in my power, none of it is her. As long as I do the right thing, she will magically become a better wife." I agree with you that he should change the way he responds to her, because that is what is in his control. That does NOT necessarily mean that she will change.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

John Lee said:


> I think a lot of what you say is right, but this is just flat wrong. It's like magical thinking -- "everything is in my power, none of it is her. As long as I do the right thing, she will magically become a better wife." I agree with you that he should change the way he responds to her, because that is what is in his control. That does NOT necessarily mean that she will change.


You'd be surprised, my friend 

I have zero doubt if done correctly, consistently, she will absolutely change.

Regardless, only one way to find out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Heh, she sounds like me at my worst point. Using books to escape life, depressed, no energy to do anything, no desire to do anything but felt guilt over not doing it, needing a lot of sleep but staying up late to continue 'escaping' anyway. 

I pulled myself out of it. I think it was all due to having virtually no ability to deal with stress in a constructive way and it all piled up until I shut down. At the time we owned a small business. The other day my sister said to me that, from what she saw, it took me over a year just to start smiling again after all that.

Anyway, I think she needs help outside of the marriage, she needs exercise, she needs to get out of the house. You could still do your part too. I'm sure there's plenty of advice already written regarding that.

Edited to add: I don't know how she'll take this, so it's up to you whether you think it's worth a shot or not but regarding her staying up late reading, sometimes all it would take for DH (not that he realised it) to get me to go to bed was to say to me, 'let's go to bed'. Instead, he used to stay up late too, but he seems better able to cope with it, while I just turn to a big steaming pile of crap the next day.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

"You got a lot of advice and suggestions in your first thread. I am wondering how many of them you have implemented?"

some of it; not all: 

i'm working with the kids on improving their rooms and taking responsibility for keeping up with what progress we make. it does seem like they are taking ownership more.

also working with kids on not screaming. in short, i'm dealing with them the way it was recommended that i deal with spouse's screaming - the 'screamed at' party walks away, reinforcing that they get no result from screaming. then i talk with the screamer about how it feels to be on the flip side, etc. this has helped from the kids' side. the spouse, not so much. 

MC, just not an option for us now. if it were, frankly, i'd be there spilling my guts right now.

cleaning service - if i had the ability to work on the house unencumbered for two weeks, i could get it to the place where a cleaning service would make sense. someday, yes. today, they'd laugh and leave. i've made a goal of making appreciable progress in one area every night before i go to sleep. last night, i cleaned the bathroom and organized the linen closet. the night before, the kitchen was made whole. 

i tried to get a bin for them all to put their dirty clothes in, but that was rejected and she returned them. she's going to keep up w/laundry, she says.

"Now that you know what she's doing all day, why bother to confront her? What are you going to tell her? What are you hoping she will do?"

i'm hoping that when confronted with empirical evidence that she's burning time, she will choose to be an adult and own up to it. for now, she's just said that i don't see what she's doing b/c i'm not at home. if someone showed me that i was wasting 2-3 hours a day, i'd like to think i would deal with it. 

"If she's reading instead of cleaning, I really think she may be depressed. Has she gone to a doc? Have you looked into MC?"

good chance. i've looked into MC and to get something that is going to work long term, it's going to take more than we have the ability to pay for at this point. just the way it is.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Is she using the books as an escape of some sort?


i can't say. it would seem so; either that or she's just horrifically lazy and thinks i won't ever notice. i prefer to think the former. it makes it somehow more palpable.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Trying,

I hope you read my loooooong post on the first page of this thread. There were a lot of suggestions that might be helpful for your wife.

Just my 2 cents...


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

John Lee said:


> In fact, I think you are using this theorizing as a way to avoid confronting her. It sounds to me like you do not confront her very much about these problems, am I right?


actually, i do, john. when we have these discussions, they aren't pretty. she tells me that i'm judgemental and i'm incapable of knowing what all she does in a day. 

what i'm hoping to do with the 'evidence' that i'm finding is demonstrate that if nothing else, she's being inefficient. i don't think i'll ever get her to confess to being outright lazy, but if i can show beyond reason that she's burning 2-3 hours a day (or more), then as a reasonable adult, i'd hope she would step up. that's really what i want.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

Cosmos said:


> Have you spoken with your W about the state of the house? As your W is obviously a SAHM, you have a right to expect her to keep up her end of the bargain: You go out to work. She contributes by taking care of the children and the house.
> 
> If your W doesn't want to do work around the house, suggest that she seeks part-time employment and you hire a cleaner.
> 
> There's no easy way around this (and I wouldn't confront her over the books at this stage), and you have to let her know that you're unhappy with the mess at home.


i have spoken w/ her about it. she is a SAHM. what frustrating is that there's always an 'i'll do better when':

'when this project w/PTO is done, i'll have more time'
'when the youngest is in school all day, i'll have more time'
'when the kids aren't on christmas break, i'll have more time'

there always something. 

i have broached that she go back to work. i think it would be good for her to have adult things to do outside of the house. but she wants to wait until after this summer to do that...


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

melw74 said:


> I agree with you. I could not live in a messy house, I am not saying i do not spend a lot of time on my laptop as i would be lying, but i have my priority's.
> 
> My husband, my children and my home comes first, this is how i believe it should be.
> 
> ...


exactly. i'm not 100% efficient either, but i get done what has to be done and try to make improvements in myself/my job performance every day. i just don't feel like i'm getting the same commitment from her. when i'm home with the kids on saturday/sunday (she goes to the grocery by herself 90% of the time), i'm cleaning because i can't just sit in a house this way. so i'm incapable of understanding why she makes this choice, over and over, day after day. 

maybe if i could empathize, i'd be better at helping somehow.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Was she this way before the kids came along?


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

3Xnocharm said:


> If you kids are of the ages where they are in school full time, why is she still staying home all day anyway?? She should go out and get a job, especially since she is clearly not pulling any weight around the home. What a load of crap, I can fully understand why you feel the way you do. You need to make things change, and it sounds like there needs to be some not so pretty confrontations.


i'm ok with her being a SAHM, if she pulls her fair share of the load. it's not that i'm so traditional (we actually talked about me being a SAHD when we started our family - she was quite successful professionally), but i know that kids and running a house takes work. 

but if a spouse gets to be the SAH with all the benefits that come with it, there should be reciprocity. 

confrontations have happened, with no result. that's what kills me. until now, all i've had are suspicions. now i feel like i'm getting some concrete evidence that will hopefully bring us to the table together.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

justtryin said:


> Haven't seen your other thread that people are talking about, but based upon what I see here -
> 
> Recognize that her needs are not being fully met. She is caught up in "escape" activities. Everyone needs a break once in a while but obviously it's become out of control with her. That's because there is a void in her life that she's trying to fill. Many women (and men) do this also with games on their phones/computers, shopping, television, or even more detrimental habits like gambling, drinking, etc.
> 
> ...


i'm going to have to digest this. i'm sure this is a fair criticism. and if i can say that, i'm sure she'd say more than that. so i can take that pill.

here is where i struggle - while i can't say where/when her needs stopped being met, it happened after she stopped fulfilling her end of the bargain. it's hard (and maybe unreasonable?) to expect a spouse to continue to meet your needs when you're unwilling to do your part. doesn't that make you a doormat then? and if she continues to not do anything on her end, how long exactly do i keep that up? 

of course, a reasonable, uninvolved person might suggest that i start down that road before i worry about getting to the end of it...

this is a tough one.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

"Wow... I read through your other thread plus this one. I really feel for you. I was a stay-at-home-mom for 20 years, and I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but my house was virtually spotless. And no, I'm not a clean-freak by any nature. As soon as the kids got on the bus I got right to work -- I usually had my housework, grocery shopping, paperwork, errands done by noon or one o'clock. Then I had an hour or two to sit down, drink a cup of tea, read for a bit or meet a friend for lunch or coffee. Then, it was time for the kids to come home and start all over with the crazy afternoon and getting dinner going."

this is exactly where i'm at, i have to admit. i think there is time to do all that - clean, read/coffee, shop - and not go crazy. that's what i struggle with. i don't want to be a jerk, but i've done it with all three kids at home alone while she's been gone. and i do much more than her in a single night than she's done in a week. 

"What was her childhood home like growing up? Was it a junk heap too? If so, this may be her idea of normal."

you nailed that one. her parents were divorced and her mother's house was a pig sty (sp?). that being said, she hated it and says she can't stand living like this. her words and her actions are incongruous.

"In order to operate efficiently, every house needs "systems." A system for the laundry, a system for paperwork, bills, and filing. A system for actual cleaning and sanitizing. A system for picking up clutter." 

yes. yes, yes, yes.

"Forget the housekeeping/cleaning service until the clutter is under control. It might be beneficial to hire a professional organizer to help her get things straightened up and get her systems in place. They work wonders and I've seen homes transformed in a matter of days. Your wife truly may not have the skill set to juggle many things at once and keep things organized. She can learn all of this."

i'll look into that. i wonder what they would cost? of course, she's not going to buy into that until the house is acceptable for the public to come into... which is never. square one.

"The ridiculous amount of time she spends reading has got to stop. In my mind, it IS an escape from something. Personally, I would confront her NOW about all the reading she's doing. You already have enough evidence that her purchases are way beyond the norm. Plus she is spending A LOT of money if she's buying that many books. Why doesn't she go to the library? It's free."

actually, there is an electronic way to borrow books from our library, which she does as well. so she may have borrowed and read more than what i know during this window. 

the books average around $7 each. not much in the little picture, but across the space of the year, that total dwarfs what i spend by way of discretionary spending. but i don't want to make this about money, so i'm letting that go. if the general issue gets solved, this will get better as well.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

> she was quite successful professionally


Maybe she misses this, but she's not going to give up the priority of being there for the kids full time.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

justtryin said:


> Ok, I just read his other thread. Actually I only read his first post and I can already see the problem. He's not going to like what I have to say but it's my honest assessment and I hope it sinks in.
> 
> OP mentions anger and frustration taking out on wife. Think her needs are being met? Think she feels appreciated and valued? Think he's her emotional rock? Think she feels emotionally safe with him?
> 
> ...


in theory, i see that a marriage is a partnership, so i struggle with this line of thought. i'm not offended or beat up, just trying to reconcile your thoughts. i appreciate the time you took to look at this and previous post and put a thoughtful response...

i'm sure her needs are not totally being met. no doubt about it. i'm trying, but also feel like i have to meet our kids needs as well, in some senses alone. so it's like i have to do much more than she's willing to do. and that is emotionally and intellectually difficult to swallow. as a spouse, i can't see expecting my wife to do that. and i can't get inside someone's head and understand that perspective without taking a very dim view of them.

i don't think there should be leaders in marriages. i think they should be joint ventures. so i struggle with that concept.

i could definitely do better about making her feel special. 100% right there. i have to do that. 



> By getting angry with her and telling her your disappointment, you are devaluing her and she does not feel emotionally safe with you. You are supposed to be her knight in shining armor. This in no way means you are a doormat. It means you are calm and confident and in charge of yourself at all times when it comes to dealing with her. You can handle her. She does not rule your emotions - you do. You lead the relationship and your family, you are her emotional rock. Being this type of man, you firmly and clearly set your expectations and she has the choice to abide by them or not...but she also knows the consequences if she does not...you do not give her your masculine, loving energy in return. Right now, you can withdraw your energy from her...but since you are not currently behaving like the man of her dreams, she may not even notice it, so it probably won't work.


your first sentence sounds similar to what she says - that she feels like i'm judging her when i bring up the state of the house, how she deals w/kids... which is true. but isn't it natural to be judged if you're doing something wrong? the other option is that it goes unchecked and uncorrected. that isn't an option. is there a third - serious question.



> You need to step up your masculinity ASAP. In your other thread I see a lot of her being in charge, and you reacting to her. Lack of appreciation and respect towards you, expecting you to drop everything and do it, etc. These are all you reacting to her, as if you are afraid to confront her or afraid to stand up to her. I get the sense that when you do stand up to her, you do it angrily, emotionally. Guess what - that is still reacting to her, and fearfully. That needs to stop. This is also why her respect for you is low. If I can see your whining and complaining here in these threads, your emotional reactions to her, these non-masculine responses to her, imagine what she must be feeling. Not trying to be mean! Just pointing it out to you. This is actually a good place to vent those emotions - just do it here, not to her.


completely right - when i do stand up to her, it's because i'm so pissed that i give up trying to work with her. 



> And realize this very, very important concept. A man does not fully and consistently meet his wife's needs because he wants a reward from her or expects something from her. He does it simply because he loves her. With this attitude, there is nothing to be "let down" about. Nothing to get resentful about. Nothing to get emotional in any way about. You do it because it feels good to give your love to the person you care about and love. Meanwhile you live your life according to your values, you validate yourself, you are comfortable in your own skin and you confidently lead your life and your family on your terms. This attitude guarantees that you do not become anyone's doormat. Of course you respect your wife and her input but you do not fear her reactions. Understand that when you react to her emotionally, even with anger, that it is based in fear. Fear that you can't "control" her, fear that she will be unhappy, fear that she will be emotional, fear that she will leave you, etc. When you behave in a masculine way, with firm and calm confidence, with your love and the best interests of the relationship/family in mind, you have no reason to get emotional, regardless of how she responds. This is how you get things done. Getting resentful, arguing, complaining, angry...well you see where that gets you.


i've printed this out. this is a deep concept and one i need to wrap my arms and brain around... i'm not sure that i buy that it is a 'doormat proof' solution. 



> I guarantee if you begin improving the way you interact with her in these ways - consistently - that she WILL eventually begin to respond favorably to you - no more need for arguments or any emotional outbursts or unreasonable escape activities or other unhealthy activities at all. She will want to please her man, her knight in shining armor, will unquestionably respond to you. Why? Because you complete her, you fill her with love and positive energy and emotions, you understand her and can handle her, she is safe with you emotionally, you will be the most valuable man on the planet to her, and she will not want to do anything to jeapordize that.


gotta be honest, i have a really hard time buying this. really. but i want solutions and if i need to step outside of my comfort zone, fine. but i really have a hard time with this thought line.




> That's all very bare bones but that's the gist of it. I've just outlined some basics. I could go on and on but the problems are becoming crystal clear to me. I'm surprised it's not worse than just escaping into books...and trust me, it will get worse if you don't start working on yourself in this relationship. I wish you the best and hope that you take my words to heart, don't want you to feel beat up just see it as a call to action. Your wife can be the wife of your dreams but it first requires YOU to be in the right frame of mind. Your children will benefit too - they will see a much happier, positively interacting mother, and their parents madly in love with each other.
> 
> For what it's worth, I speak from experience. I had some tremendous help though...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thanks. like i said, you (and others) spent time on this and i am in your debt.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

John Lee said:


> I agree with you that he should change the way he responds to her, because that is what is in his control. That does NOT necessarily mean that she will change.


and that's what i'm afraid of. his solution requires a lot of faith on my part and she hasn't done much in the past five years to earn that... 

like i said in my response to his post, i'm struggling with what he said...


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

breeze said:


> Heh, she sounds like me at my worst point. Using books to escape life, depressed, no energy to do anything, no desire to do anything but felt guilt over not doing it, needing a lot of sleep but staying up late to continue 'escaping' anyway.
> 
> I pulled myself out of it. I think it was all due to having virtually no ability to deal with stress in a constructive way and it all piled up until I shut down. At the time we owned a small business. The other day my sister said to me that, from what she saw, it took me over a year just to start smiling again after all that.
> 
> ...


how did you pull yourself out of it? what made you decide to? 

unfortunately, she reads in bed... and her ereader is backlight, so she can read as long as there is battery life. i bought it for her as a gift b/c i knew how much she loved to read... who knew it would come back to bite me so badly...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

justtryin said:


> Ok, I just read his other thread. Actually I only read his first post and I can already see the problem. He's not going to like what I have to say but it's my honest assessment and I hope it sinks in.
> 
> OP mentions anger and frustration taking out on wife. Think her needs are being met? Think she feels appreciated and valued? Think he's her emotional rock? Think she feels emotionally safe with him?
> 
> ...


With out necessarily disagreeing with this, what responsibility does she have in the relationship? What is he allowed to reasonably expect from her?

I ask because in a couple of other threads involving poor behavior by the husband, the advice has been universally that it is unacceptable, should not be tolerated and he needs to start pulling his weight. The poorly behaving husband is expected to be held accountable for his action immediately, not after she figures out if his needs are not being met.

I suspect what the OP here is having difficulties with is that the advice suggests that he is fully to blame, she has no responsibility and he has to do all the work. It is also difficult to swallow the idea that he should do things out of love regardless of how he is treated, while she gets to do things only once he is meeting her needs. I understand that because he is the one posting, he needs to take the first steps. But I disagree with the implicit suggestion that she has no accountability. Because without it, he is a doormat, regardless of why he is doing what he does. 

If she meets his efforts to improve with continued indifference, than further efforts end up rewarding poor behavior.


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## Thebes (Apr 10, 2013)

I think you suggesting she get a job so you can hire someone to clean the house is a good idea but I would make it a full time job.

If she is a stay at home mom I think its her job to clean and take care of the kids. Not that a house has to be spotless there is no such thing with kids but it needs to be liveable. If its too dirty you could lose your kids over it if someone turns you in to social services. 

Sounds like to me she is just lazy if she never cleans and just reads all day.


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## Thebes (Apr 10, 2013)

justtryin said:


> Ok, I just read his other thread. Actually I only read his first post and I can already see the problem. He's not going to like what I have to say but it's my honest assessment and I hope it sinks in.
> 
> OP mentions anger and frustration taking out on wife. Think her needs are being met? Think she feels appreciated and valued? Think he's her emotional rock? Think she feels emotionally safe with him?
> 
> ...


If he's not treating her right then I can see why she is the way she is but she still has kids and living in filth isn't good for them. 

No if he isn't meeting her needs she will get tired of meeting his or already has and could very well replace him if she get that job. Some people thinks it all about them and they do nothing to meet the other persons needs.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Thebes said:


> Sounds like to me she is just lazy if she never cleans and just reads all day.


:iagree:


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

You have received some good advice in dealing with your wife, but I'm wondering how the house is such a mess to begin with. 
I'm sorry if I missed this, but how many children do you have and how old are they? They should be cleaning up after themselves, at least to some extent, depending on their ages. Again depending on their ages, they should also be able to help clean up after dinner and have other chores. It is important for development in becoming responsible adults for the children to have chores and learn to keep house.
In the evening, you should begin to work with them in teaching them how to clean up after themselves, so that before they go to bed, their rooms and any messes they have made are cleaned up. If they are able to make the mess, they should be able to clean it up. You also begin to teach them how to fold and put their own clothes away. These are chores that they should be learning, if they are school age. At a certain point, they should take over their own laundry.
If they are all school aged, they should also be able to vacuum.
Whenever your wife does anything right in housekeeping, tell her that you noticed and appreciate her for doing it. If she is making dinner, be sure to thank her for dinner every night and tell her when you especially enjoyed a meal.
If she is reading for 2-3 hours per day, that should not interfere with her ability to keep the house up nicely.
You are able to meet the needs of your wife and children. Do you play with the kids?
What kinds of positive interactions do you have with your wife? Do you do anything positive together?


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

tryingtodoitright said:


> how did you pull yourself out of it? what made you decide to?
> 
> unfortunately, she reads in bed... and her ereader is backlight, so she can read as long as there is battery life. i bought it for her as a gift b/c i knew how much she loved to read... who knew it would come back to bite me so badly...


Hope. Time.

My marriage improved, which helped me greatly. I came here looking for help in my marriage, read some books (I know! more books, but they were self help books rather than 'escape your reality' books), implemented some things and slowly DH and I became closer. This helped with my depression, which became quite bad after the birth of our 2nd child, not that I was diagnosed, nor did I go to doctors for it, (note that 2nd child post natal depression has been quite common in women from what I've seen).

DH and I talked about things a great deal, while he wasn't the most supportive husband around the house, he did tell me things like, 'it will get better'. He also tried to make me face reality too with, 'this is life, get used to it', 'toughen up'. Might not help everyone, but he got away with it, so I guess it may have helped, lol.

Also, my second child stopped having so many tantrums. My daughter was so easy to deal with that when my boy came around, I had no idea what I was in for. He was such a little ball of fury that he literally wore me out. It felt like he had so much anger that it was effected the air around him, that at any moment he'd explode from it. One day DS had had a huge tantrum, in public too, and I couldn't get off the couch when we got home. I felt like I was in a trance. DH got home from work and asked what was for dinner. Nothing was even started. I gave some input and said I'd go grab something for it from the store. Got in the car, still numb, and as I was walking around the store, a ball of pain started in my chest and I started crying. Got out of the store and balled my eyes out in the car. 

I went to parenting courses to help me deal with that, but DS seemed to just needed to grow out of it, and mostly what I needed was to learn to deal with my own emotions that surfaced in response to his.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

tryingtodoitright said:


> in theory, i see that a marriage is a partnership, so i struggle with this line of thought. i'm not offended or beat up, just trying to reconcile your thoughts. i appreciate the time you took to look at this and previous post and put a thoughtful response...
> 
> i'm sure her needs are not totally being met. no doubt about it. i'm trying, but also feel like i have to meet our kids needs as well, in some senses alone. so it's like i have to do much more than she's willing to do. and that is emotionally and intellectually difficult to swallow. as a spouse, i can't see expecting my wife to do that. and i can't get inside someone's head and understand that perspective without taking a very dim view of them.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately my time is very limited over the next couple days, I have a tremendous amount of explanation & advice for you. But I feel compelled to respond now rather than later so I'll do my best to give some helpful highlights.

Not believing in being the leader is a huge part of the problem. You think you are being collaborative but in reality it's a tug of war. Power struggle. You both want to lead certain aspects of the relationship, and you both want the other person to handle other aspects. The result is arguing, frustration, resentment, etc. deep down you know this. You expect her to pull her weight, and she expects you to - you expect her to fulfill your needs and vice versa - it's a chicken vs egg, a stalemate. Who will step up and take responsibility? Who will LEAD? 

Joint ventures are not marriages. They are temporary arrangements to accomplish some specific thing. What we are talking about here is a male/female sexual relationship. And even partnerships - sustainable, satisfying, healthy ones - have an inherent leader. People can complement each other's strengths & weaknesses but someone has to lead. Otherwise you get what you see in your, and many other peoples relationships. Much, much more to this...

but just to summarize, it's about taking ownership and responsibility as a man. Many complain "what about the woman". Guess what. It's a sign of masculinity to take full responsibility, to take action, to hold oneself accountable, to stand true to his own values, to stand on his own while inviting others into his world, lovingly and confidently, and to dismiss or otherwise give no energy to those who do not abide by his values and give their positive energy in return. In other words to lead. But there is a host of right ways and wrong ways to accomplish this. But have no doubt - when done correctly, both partners will have the marriage of their dreams. Doesn't that sound more appealing than worrying about who is doing the "work" in the relationship? If the outcome is your dream marriage, does it matter? And here's a helpful hint - it's ultimately more about working on YOURSELF than anything else. Do that right, and the rest will follow.

Anyhow I also want to caution that creating your ideal marriage requires an all in approach - not a pick and choose. Won't work. You can't start meeting all her needs but then not taking leadership or expressing your masculinity. It will only lead to more resentment and mixed results at best.

As for dealing with house/kids/etc yes there is a third option, since you have been mis-handling it thus far. Now, all she hears when you express your expectations is that she is not good enough, you don't value her. Period. So you have to do it the hard way - start over. This means meet her needs first. I have a very specific conversation you could have with her that will work wonders, but will have to post it later because it's a lot of writing. Just know that she needs to feel special, appreciated, and valued before she will naturally want to start meeting your expectations and pleasing you. Depending how long it's been this way, it may take quite some time and your consistency before she truly feels it in her subconscious again. Will take more than a few words and a couple of dates. But done right- she will turn around seemingly like magic. I've witnessed it with my own two unbelieving eyes (it's still surreal to think about sometimes). But as I've been saying it requires YOU as a man to do all the "work" and it is hard to buy into concepts you don't agree with or don't understand. And when I say "work" - it's primarily about working on YOURSELF, not for your wife. Your wife simply begins to respond to you. This is a very fundamental principle that many guys never figure out, either due to ignorance or due to a victim mentality/ lack of responsibility.

I'm getting too deep so I'll stop there for now but hopefully you're starting to understand. I spent 6 months of intense focus/research/counseling on these concepts and more, every day, always on my mind, before finally and completely getting it - and thus getting my wife and I our dream marriage (20 years so I had a lot of baggage to overcome). So it's not easy to condense all of that knowledge and understanding here 

Moving on, STOP reacting emotionally to your wife. Part of any woman's needs is to feel emotionally safe with her partner. When you express anger at her guess what. It also makes you less masculine, believe it or not. Because you are demonstrating that she has power over you, essentially that you can't handle her. It's not attractive and it's not safe for her. There's more but that's a brief summary. A guy who is masculine does not get rattled by his wife, for many reasons. I'll get back to this in a later post when I have more time. For now, keep your negative emotions away from your wife. There are far more successful ways of expressing your dissatisfaction, in fact ways that will draw your wife TOWARDS you,and are healthier for you personally anyways.

Doormat proof solution - again apologies for not having time to be more thorough, but just consider this. If you do not want to be treated like a doormat, then don't behave like one. It's that simple. The hard part is doing it in a way that attracts your wife, rather than in a way that hurts or repulses her (which is what most guys do).

Hope some of this makes sense. I'll try to respond more later. It's a lot to absorb and figure out, and many guys will challenge it. When you read their challenges though, ask yourself if they sound like they are coming from a place of confidence, responsibility, and love...masculine traits by the way... Or a place of victim-hood and whining or anger (fear). Skepticism I understand, due to either ignorance, indecisiveness , fear, or all of the above. Just requires taking responsibility and educating oneself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

justtryin said:


> Unfortunately my time is very limited over the next couple days, I have a tremendous amount of explanation & advice for you. But I feel compelled to respond now rather than later so I'll do my best to give some helpful highlights.
> 
> Not believing in being the leader is a huge part of the problem. You think you are being collaborative but in reality it's a tug of war. Power struggle. You both want to lead certain aspects of the relationship, and you both want the other person to handle other aspects. The result is arguing, frustration, resentment, etc. deep down you know this. You expect her to pull her weight, and she expects you to - you expect her to fulfill your needs and vice versa - it's a chicken vs egg, a stalemate. Who will step up and take responsibility? Who will LEAD?
> 
> ...


Again, where is she accountable for anything? What responsibility does she have? Is she just a child? I understand leading in a marriage, but this seems to absolve her of any and all responsibility in her life and the marriage. Anything wrong in either is due to his failures. She decides not to do laundry. That is his fault. She makes an unhealthy and awful dinner. He can't say a word, because the reason she did that was because he failed as a husband. She provides no value as a partner and he is blamed because he does not value her, without the question of whether she is causing that ever even being considered. Her needs are paramount, and she gets to ignore him until each and every one of hers are met to her satisfaction. Until that point, she gets to sit back and do what she wants, confident that her decisions can be fully blamed on him.

I tend to think (or at least hope) that the above is not your intent. Yet I fail to see a single word written in your posts that contradicts this cynical assessment. 

So again, all of the above only works if there is accountability. Yes, he needs to be accountable for making changes, but she does as well. If she wants to be in a marriage, she needs to contribute. As it is, the advice above places all work on him, and is quite clear that if she does not respond, it is still his fault. No provision is given for the idea that it could be on her. The idea that it is her poor character and selfishness (and not in fact his failings) is never considered. But it needs to be. Because one potential outcome is that he does all that has been suggested, works to meet her needs, and it still fails, due to his wife and her issues. 

Finally, I do find the advice above on not being a doormat to be troubling. I would argue that in the face of her poor treatment of him, doing more for her is the very definition of a doormat. When people treat us badly, accepting that treatment and then working harder to meet their needs reinforces that treatment. It communicates that the treatment is acceptable and the recipient is not bothered by it and in fact deserves. I would further argue that based on the advice above, folks think he does deserve it due to his failings as a husband and a leader.

Whereas I don't think he deserves it, based on what has been posted so far. He does need to work on himself. But part of being a leader means demanding accountability and results. He needs to require that from his wife as well. And he needs to be open to the idea that this is also about her faults, not just his.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Again, where is she accountable for anything? What responsibility does she have? ... part of being a leader means demanding accountability and results.


Exactly. But this means you must be a respected leader in the first place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Ok Tall Average Guy. You have many misconceptions so I'll try to explain more. I know where you are coming from but it's only because you don't have the full picture of how these concepts and principles work.

Right now he isn't a respected leader, for various reasons including not properly setting expectations and not PROPERLY holding her accountable. He has not earned her respect as a leader. And even before THAT, he has not been fully meeting her needs. Therefore she has no REASON to meet his expectations, even if she knows what they are, she can feel justified not meeting HIS since he's not meeting HERS, and the more he demands of her, the more she will push back consciously or subconsciously. Which will result in what? More of the same, if not worse. Stalemate.

You are thinking in the same terms that he is. "Why isn't SHE...what about HER..." This is the problem. Putting the cart before the horse. Like I said before, one must FIRST demonstrate fully meeting her needs. And by the way, being a doormat is doing things "for" her out of fear - fear of her leaving, fear of her emotional reaction (like her unhappiness or her anger), fear of upsetting the relationship, fear of arguing, etc. None of that has anything to do with meeting her needs. Meeting needs is something you do out of love, on your own terms, not because you "have to" or just for a reward of them doing something for you. 

Go back and read what I said earlier about meeting needs. It's not about doing the chores for her, giving her money, agreeing with her on everything, trying to control her mood one way or the other. Nothing to do with any of that. It's about having an emotional connection with her. Making her feel emotionally safe. Valued. Appreciated. Loved. Special. All because he genuinely and sincerely cares about her, not because he's trying to "get" something from her. Tell me how doing any of those things makes a man a "doormat" in and of itself. Unless he's only doing those things to "get" something from her. You see the difference? Holding her accountable for her actions is a different topic. A man meets his wife's needs out of love, not "hoping" to get a reward in return. If she is misbehaving towards him then that is something he deals with separately.

You're right that meeting someone else's needs without them ever meeting yours, and simply accepting that is not a recipe for a healthy marriage either...ultimately. But realize that what we're talking about in this situation is a woman who has NOT been getting her needs met fully and consistently for quite some time. In order to "reset" the relationship and get it back on track, he may very well need to put his own needs on hold to some degree and prove to her that he knows how to meet hers. Only once that has been clearly and consistently demonstrated (and he will know when that time is, just as he knows he's NOT fully meeting them now) can he begin enforcing his expectations successfully.
The rest will follow, if done right. I believe I pointed this out before. Not grasping this concept is where men get into trouble. It leads you to the very thinking that gets you into trouble in the first place - "what about her... why isn't she... what about ME..." A whiny, victim attitude by someone who has not been stepping up and taking responsibility for their own role in the relationship, and can't or won't take the lead in correcting it, instead a stalemate where each waits for the other to do something. Part of being a man means taking the lead. 

Here's another way to put it - if a man is really so dependent upon his wife to feel good about himself that he can't temporarily forgo his own "needs" from her in order to make sure he is fully meeting her needs...then what kind of man is he? 
I know you're thinking "ok, so say he consistently demonstrates that he is fully meeting her needs for quite some time, but then finds out she STILL won't meet his expectations (for example not cleaning house), now what". This is why it is so critical to have the fundamental base of the relationship - fully and consistently meeting her needs - laid down FIRST. This is where a man's masculinity then comes into play. He has clearly and calmly made his expectations clear to her. He has demonstrated that he knows how to love and care for her, that he is not a needy dependent boy, but a solid, independent MAN who is so good within himself that he can give that love and care without whining and complaining about his own needs. So the only reason at that point that she wouldn't be meeting his reasonable expectations is because he's not behaving masculine enough. So how does he respond in a masculine way? 

He confronts her. I said this before too. And I will also say, AGAIN, that he must first be meeting her needs before he can successfully confront. Otherwise it very well may not work.
Confronting in the proper way is critical. It must be done as briefly as possible, direct, firm, but CALM, giving her the choice in how she wants to respond (a loving man does not control his wife) but also letting her know what the consequences of not meeting your expectations will be. Then walking away (never arguing - a man who is confident and firm in his values and leadership has no reason to "argue" anything) and allowing her reasonable time to process what he has said.

TONS of details and "do's and don'ts" in that, but that's the gist of it. An example would be to let her know (again firmly and concisely, confident and calm) that with the best interests of the marriage in mind, you believe you both have certain obligations to meet in order for everyone to be happy and satisfied. "Wife, I work my hardest to provide for the family every day. You know I fully and intentionally give all of my love, care, and affection to you because I love you and I want us both to be as happy and satisfied as possible. It would not be fair or loving or in the best interests of a mutually happy marriage if I chose to quit my job and work part time for a meager wage simply because I don't want to work very hard anymore I want to play more video games, and I expect YOU to go find a full time job to pick up the slack? What message would that be sending to you, wife...would that be a message of love and the best interests of our marriage and family? Would I be meeting your expectations as a husband and provider? So by the same token, what message are you sending to me when you choose not to keep up my expectations of your responsibilities of a clean house, choosing to relax and read books instead? Do you feel that is fair, loving, and contributing to a mutually satisfying marriage?"

Depending upon circumstances, there are variations to that, and/or additional wording (messages of affirmation for example like "I understand how overwhelming it can be and everyone needs a break" etc.) but that depends upon where the relationship is at and other details. But the primary message is to remind her that you are leading the relationship from a place of mutual happiness and satisfaction, that your expectations which have been previously stated clearly are not being met and therefore she is not currently demonstrating HER willingness to work for a mutually happy and satisfying marriage. That alone is usually enough. If not, further confrontation that is even more firm and direct would be necessary, the final step being ultimatums.

But do you see how pointless that confrontation would be if not fully meeting your wife's needs? If you HAVE demonstrated that you are, and consistently, there is no question on either behalf. She KNOWS you are the man who satisfies her and you know it too, and you do it ON PURPOSE for a MUTUALLY satisfying marriage. So the confrontation becomes CLEAR and indisputable to her that she is not upholding her end of the marriage - she has no leg to stand on because you are not putting her on the defensive (even if she acts defensive) you are not "accusing" you are simply calling out a reality, you are not angry, you are not under her control emotionally, you are not having drawn out discussions about it where things get twisted around and diverted and old baggage comes up etc. You calmly and firmly spoke your piece like a man. You came from a place of love and mutual benefit. You clearly expressed your point, and you walk away, no "discussion" necessary...what is there to discuss? You did not get angry, you did not get drawn into an argument or discussion about it, you did not whine, you are not acting like a doormat and you are not behaving selfishly. You are leading the relationship for mutual satisfaction and both of you know this. She may need a little time to process it but it's the only conclusion to come to. Meanwhile you go about your business and enjoy your time with your kids or some other enjoyable activity on your own until she is ready to come to you lovingly and respectfully. No negative feelings on her part because you did not argue or bring up other stuff, you did not get angry at her or yell, you looked her right in the eyes and behaved like a man, a man who loves her and cares about your relationship and wants BOTH of you to be happy...and knows what it takes and how to lead it there...and she KNOWS it. 

Again note that this requires he already is fully meeting her needs, and acting like a leader. Highly, highly unlikely that she would choose NOT to begin meeting his expectations. Why? Because she does not want to lose what she has - her man who is willing to meet HER expectations, who DOES meet her expectations...AND he is not a doormat, he is the leader of their relationship, and she knows this. She knows if she tries to get away with not meeting his expectations, he will call it out in a masculine way - firm, calm, confident and direct. She will know she is JEOPARDIZING that mutually happy and satisfying relationship and will not want to risk that. In the unlikely event that she CONTINUES to not meet his expectations at that point, then he takes even more firm action and technique...but that's getting ahead of where he's at right now so it's no sense in me writing out another very long explanation at this point.

Anyways a woman who does NOT feel her needs are fully met will have less to lose and therefore less likely to comply to her partner's expectations and needs. And if he is not leading the relationship, she will not take him seriously anyways, knowing she has power over him emotionally, she can argue her way out of it, or hold certain of his "needs" hostage, resulting in the stalemate they find themselves in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

I mostly agree with justtryin, but she may be in such a pit that she will not be able to do what is right. If that is the case, it is important to really listen to her and find out why she is unable to pull herself away from the books and do the her job in keeping the house.
I also think that the children need to be involved or they are going to turn out the same way. I do not understand why the house is such a mess when the kids are gone all day at school. Is she making a mess and not cleaning up after herself? Are the kids coming home and making a mess and just leaving it? Is the kitchen not being cleaned up after dinner? Where is the mess coming from?
I am a homeschool mom. Two of my three children are home all day doing their school work. The other one is in college, but still lives with us. She also has a job, but she still spends a lot of time at home. My house is not a disaster and I hardly clean up anything, unless I was the one who made the mess. If they make a mess, I expect them to pick up after themselves or I drop their junk on their bed or take away the T.V. or something. My husband uses his power to help make sure that they are doing their chores and cleaning up after themselves. They are certainly not perfect, but if someone were to show up out of the blue, I wouldn't be embarrassed by my home.
My point is to understand why the house is a mess in the first place.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Tall Average Guy said:


> With out necessarily disagreeing with this, what responsibility does she have in the relationship? What is he allowed to reasonably expect from her?
> 
> I ask because in a couple of other threads involving poor behavior by the husband, the advice has been universally that it is unacceptable, should not be tolerated and he needs to start pulling his weight. The poorly behaving husband is expected to be held accountable for his action immediately, not after she figures out if his needs are not being met.
> 
> ...


I agree with that very much. Taking responsibility for things you cannot control is not the best way to go. The advice will work with reasonable people stuck in a rut, but most people are various distances into unreasonable. 

Him accepting the blame for everything does not make him more masculine. Indeed, it comes just means ultimately feeling smug (if it works) or inadequate (if it does not). It is important that his self-worth does not depend on her behaviour he cannot ultimately control that.

He should take responsibility for what he can do, but no more than that.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

justtryin said:


> Ok Tall Average Guy. You have many misconceptions so I'll try to explain more. I know where you are coming from but it's only because you don't have the full picture of how these concepts and principles work.


Actually, I do have a full concept and principles. I am just noting that your evaluation assumes any failure lies with him. She has no responsibility for anything that occurs. Your previous posts are very clear on that.



> Like I said before, one must FIRST demonstrate fully meeting her needs.


And how does one do that? By this rationale, she only does things once he *fully * meets her needs. As a human, he will naturally fail at this from time to time. Yet by your thinking, she is then justified in doing nothing, full stop, to meet his needs.



> And by the way, being a doormat is doing things "for" her out of fear - fear of her leaving, fear of her emotional reaction (like her unhappiness or her anger), fear of upsetting the relationship, fear of arguing, etc. None of that has anything to do with meeting her needs. Meeting needs is something you do out of love, on your own terms, not because you "have to" or just for a reward of them doing something for you.


This misses the forest for the trees. One can be a doormat while doing things out of love. Meeting her needs on your own terms can be doormat behavior if done while accepting poor behavior in return. 



> Making her feel emotionally safe. Valued. Appreciated. Loved. Special. All because he genuinely and sincerely cares about her, not because he's trying to "get" something from her. Tell me how doing any of those things makes a man a "doormat" in and of itself.


We don't know with out context. But a man who does those things and receives horrible treatement in response over the long term is being a doormat.



> But realize that what we're talking about in this situation is a woman who has NOT been getting her needs met fully and consistently for quite some time.


How do you know this?



> Only once that has been clearly and consistently demonstrated (and he will know when that time is, just as he knows he's NOT fully meeting them now) can he begin enforcing his expectations successfully.
> The rest will follow, if done right.


By this reasoning, if things don't work, it is his fault, even if she is actually the problem.



> I believe I pointed this out before. Not grasping this concept is where men get into trouble. It leads you to the very thinking that gets you into trouble in the first place - "what about her... why isn't she... what about ME..." A whiny, victim attitude by someone who has not been stepping up and taking responsibility for their own role in the relationship, and can't or won't take the lead in correcting it, instead a stalemate where each waits for the other to do something. Part of being a man means taking the lead.


I understand your point and do agree with much. But no where in your previous posts did you address what he needs to expect from her. You very clearly 



> Here's another way to put it - if a man is really so dependent upon his wife to feel good about himself that he can't temporarily forgo his own "needs" from her in order to make sure he is fully meeting her needs...then what kind of man is he?


A guy who is working his tail off, raising their kids, supporting them in his job and taking care of the house while she is sitting on her backside reading a good book?

This is not about his self worth or needs. He wants someone to partner up.




> I know you're thinking "ok, so say he consistently demonstrates that he is fully meeting her needs for quite some time, but then finds out she STILL won't meet his expectations (for example not cleaning house), now what". This is why it is so critical to have the fundamental base of the relationship - fully and consistently meeting her needs - laid down FIRST. This is where a man's masculinity then comes into play. He has clearly and calmly made his expectations clear to her. He has demonstrated that he knows how to love and care for her, that he is not a needy dependent boy, but a solid, independent MAN who is so good within himself that he can give that love and care without whining and complaining about his own needs. So the only reason at that point that she wouldn't be meeting his reasonable expectations is because he's not behaving masculine enough. So how does he respond in a masculine way?
> 
> He confronts her. I said this before too. And I will also say, AGAIN, that he must first be meeting her needs before he can successfully confront. Otherwise it very well may not work.
> Confronting in the proper way is critical. It must be done as briefly as possible, direct, firm, but CALM, giving her the choice in how she wants to respond (a loving man does not control his wife) but also letting her know what the consequences of not meeting your expectations will be. Then walking away (never arguing - a man who is confident and firm in his values and leadership has no reason to "argue" anything) and allowing her reasonable time to process what he has said.
> ...


All great in theory, but the reality is that no one fully meets another persons needs 100% of the time. We men are human. We fall down at times. We fail. Under your regime, when we do so, women are fully within their rights to do nothing, and we as men cannot expect anything from them. I doubt that is the type of marriage that many men want to sign on to.

I actually agree with much of what you write regarding meeting her needs. I also agree that as he is the one posting, he needs to take the first steps to break the cycle. Where I disagree is expecting him to get everything perfect first and only then being allowed to approach he asking if she minds changing things now. 

Him sitting down with her, mapping out the plan and then executing it are important. Holding himself accountable is critical. Holding her accountable is also important. Not doing so until everything is done right on his side means he never gets to hold her accountable. For that reason, you advice is doomed to failure.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

Tall Average Guy said:


> With out necessarily disagreeing with this, what responsibility does she have in the relationship? What is he allowed to reasonably expect from her?
> 
> I ask because in a couple of other threads involving poor behavior by the husband, the advice has been universally that it is unacceptable, should not be tolerated and he needs to start pulling his weight. The poorly behaving husband is expected to be held accountable for his action immediately, not after she figures out if his needs are not being met.
> 
> ...


you've nailed it exactly. in a lot of ways, i feel like i've done just that. and there is little reciprocity and never any long term gain. there is the old saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. 

then on the flip side, i'm reticent to not continue to try as well.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

Thebes said:


> I think you suggesting she get a job so you can hire someone to clean the house is a good idea but I would make it a full time job.
> 
> If she is a stay at home mom I think its her job to clean and take care of the kids. Not that a house has to be spotless there is no such thing with kids but it needs to be liveable. If its too dirty you could lose your kids over it if someone turns you in to social services.
> 
> Sounds like to me she is just lazy if she never cleans and just reads all day.


it's not that dirty, primarily because i won't let it get that way. but it's a horrid baseline for our kids to start from. if that's their norm, they will continue to live this way and think nothing of it. in the end, my job as a parent is to raise my kids to be the happiest, best adults (and parents) that i can. 

and there are times where i really feel like she doesn't do anything but read all day. at best, that's unfair because it requires that i work and then clean to keep the ship afloat. at worst, it's outright lying.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Forget all that fruit salad theory gibberish. That's all about how to 'manage' the little woman. You're her husband - not her daddy or psychologist. 

Implement the 180 for you. If your wife doesn't sit up and take notice, either she's in a self-induced coma or doesn't give a rat about the marriage. Either way, you'll be in a much better position to decide if you want to continue living this way.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

CynthiaDe said:


> You have received some good advice in dealing with your wife, but I'm wondering how the house is such a mess to begin with.
> I'm sorry if I missed this, but how many children do you have and how old are they? They should be cleaning up after themselves, at least to some extent, depending on their ages. Again depending on their ages, they should also be able to help clean up after dinner and have other chores. It is important for development in becoming responsible adults for the children to have chores and learn to keep house.
> In the evening, you should begin to work with them in teaching them how to clean up after themselves, so that before they go to bed, their rooms and any messes they have made are cleaned up. If they are able to make the mess, they should be able to clean it up. You also begin to teach them how to fold and put their own clothes away. These are chores that they should be learning, if they are school age. At a certain point, they should take over their own laundry.
> If they are all school aged, they should also be able to vacuum.
> ...


we have four kids ranging from 8 to 4.

i agree in theory that they should be able to clean up after themselves. they do have chores that they are held to weekly, but to be perfectly blunt, my wife makes it impossible for me to keep up the house, much less the kids. i'm overwhelmed, so i don't see how i can expect them to hold the line.

i play with the kids as much as i can and take active roles with them, from practicing sports they enjoy to reading, etc. i take a very active role in their daily lives as much as possible. 

what do the wife and i do together that is positive? our most positive interaction is a mutual enjoyment of our children. we share daily in their scholastic and athletic achievements. we have several 'dates' each week where we sit down together, watch one or two TV shows that we both enjoy and discuss our days before, during (commercials) and after. when we can, we try to squeeze in dates, but this is tough since the house is such a wreck that we can't bring a babysitter in. this forces us to take them to a service, which is drastically more expensive than a babysitter.

i would agree that 2-3 hours a day shouldn't interfere with keeping a normally clean house. again, i don't know what she is doing while i'm gone, but i know it isn't cleaning. there just isn't any progress from day to day unless i make it. i'll put it this way: if she maintained the house, she could read all she wanted. but if nothing gets done, that's 10-15 hours a week that could make a huge dent. i've had the kids by myself on many saturdays where she went to my inlaws or elsewhere and i can make miracles happen in 12 hours.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

breeze said:


> Hope. Time.
> 
> My marriage improved, which helped me greatly. I came here looking for help in my marriage, read some books (I know! more books, but they were self help books rather than 'escape your reality' books), implemented some things and slowly DH and I became closer. This helped with my depression, which became quite bad after the birth of our 2nd child, not that I was diagnosed, nor did I go to doctors for it, (note that 2nd child post natal depression has been quite common in women from what I've seen).
> 
> ...


thanks for opening up.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

justtryin said:


> Unfortunately my time is very limited over the next couple days, I have a tremendous amount of explanation & advice for you. But I feel compelled to respond now rather than later so I'll do my best to give some helpful highlights.
> 
> Not believing in being the leader is a huge part of the problem. You think you are being collaborative but in reality it's a tug of war. Power struggle. You both want to lead certain aspects of the relationship, and you both want the other person to handle other aspects. The result is arguing, frustration, resentment, etc. deep down you know this. You expect her to pull her weight, and she expects you to - you expect her to fulfill your needs and vice versa - it's a chicken vs egg, a stalemate. Who will step up and take responsibility? Who will LEAD?
> 
> ...


printing, reading, digesting...

thanks


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

If you are really curious about how she spends her time, get some nanny cams.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

CynthiaDe said:


> I mostly agree with justtryin, but she may be in such a pit that she will not be able to do what is right. If that is the case, it is important to really listen to her and find out why she is unable to pull herself away from the books and do the her job in keeping the house.
> I also think that the children need to be involved or they are going to turn out the same way. I do not understand why the house is such a mess when the kids are gone all day at school. Is she making a mess and not cleaning up after herself? Are the kids coming home and making a mess and just leaving it? Is the kitchen not being cleaned up after dinner? Where is the mess coming from?
> I am a homeschool mom. Two of my three children are home all day doing their school work. The other one is in college, but still lives with us. She also has a job, but she still spends a lot of time at home. My house is not a disaster and I hardly clean up anything, unless I was the one who made the mess. If they make a mess, I expect them to pick up after themselves or I drop their junk on their bed or take away the T.V. or something. My husband uses his power to help make sure that they are doing their chores and cleaning up after themselves. They are certainly not perfect, but if someone were to show up out of the blue, I wouldn't be embarrassed by my home.
> My point is to understand why the house is a mess in the first place.


generally speaking, she just doesn't clean up after herself. our tacit agreement has been that she cooks and i do the dishes (we may be the last house on earth without a dishwasher). but it goes beyond that - it's like she has an expectation that she can just leave things around because i'll get to them. spices are left out even though it's a five foot walk to the cabinet. it takes an act of God to get the toaster put up when she can get it down herself. there is a trail of coats through the house that accumulate until i hang them all up on the weekend (or during the week if i manage, but she'll often say that she's tired and i'm making her feel guilty by working). there is laundry piled up all over the dining room table, which we clean off once a hear for thanksgiving, promising that we'll keep it that way. that lasted for a week this year. the list goes on and on. 

the kids contribute some of the mess, but the majority of the mess is things that are just dropped in place. 

when the kids car pool with another family, someone is stationed by the front window to see when their car pulls up so the adult in the family doesn't walk the kid to the door and see the wreck. 

and i'm sorry, but this could be solved with one week of hard work and then some daily maintenance work. but it never gets done. ever.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Are you looking to solve a problem or just griping? If the latter, then fine but don't expect or hope for anything to change.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I suggest you take the lead for a few Saturdays and then you can move to evenings.

After breakfast: OK kids, it's clean up day! Everyone go get your dirty clothes so Mom can sort and put in a load while I clean up after breakfast! 

After that's done then you say "OK kids, everyone get your wastebaskets, hon, grab the one from our bedroom bath..." then you take a trash bag and have everyone in turn dump.

Then "Kids, go hang up your coats and grab your shoes and put them in your closets. Hon, can you pick up the things on the living room floor so I can vacuum?"

And so forth. Make a game out of it for the kids. have a bag of miniature candy bars - first one to complete each task gets one. Or a quarter. Whatever your reward system dictates.

Hon, why don't you start another load while I dust? Kids, here is the clean underwear [dump on sofa] - everyone pick out your underwear and put in your drawers. First one done NEATLY gets to choose the toppings on the pizza tonight. 

Everyone hang up your shirts. First one done gets the pick the movie tonight. Give the 5 year old a consolation prize for doing a great job. Start a chore chart and if everything is done by the end of the day, each kid gets $5 and give them each a piggy bank. Tell them next weekend they'll get another $5 and you 'll take them to a store to buy something with their money.

You are directing your wife but it seems more like a team effort. You are pitching in too but eventually the job gets done. Every evening start 30 minutes before bed and each kid (AND wife) has to pick up coats, bags, shoes. 

If the kids get into good habits, it will be easier for everyone. If your wife sees everyone pitching in and you give her direction (I'm going to mow - why don't you clean the bathroom?) it might help get things started.

You should not have to do it all but you may have to get the ball rolling. 

Tell the kids they can have a sleepover and each kid gets to invite one friend once the house is clean. Tell your wife you appreciate what she does do but you can't do it all and when she does something, don't criticize or go behind her. However she does it HAS to be good enough. 

Once it's under control to a degree you can find out what the issue with your wife is. Was she always a slob? If not then something has changed. Maybe she needs some adult interaction - she loves to read, encourage her to host a book club at the house once a month. She will have to clean before she has book club. And that doesn't mean clean one room.

I'd suggest all of these things to a woman trying to get her man to help, too.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Oh and you said she wants to do one room at a time - you can still implement this the same way. Kid #1's room: Tell each kid to do something - littlest puts away shoes and takes dirty laundry to laundry room. The other kids each have a chore - oldest changes sheets, middle kid vacuums, mom wipes surfaces. Then go to kid #2's room and repeat.

Then the next weekend move to declutter with 3 baskets/boxes. 1 = trash, 2= donate (outgrown toys/clothes, 3= keep and organize. Start with oldest since outgrown stuff may get passed down. Take that to the next kids' room and repeat. If you have to buy bookshelves, bins or under bed storage, do it.

The last weekend haul off all items to donate. Repeat the cleaning process only now you can do a deep cleaning such as move the dresser and vacuum UNDER things. 

Bottom line, in a month's time, you could have the house pretty clean and decluttered AND a new system in place for keeping it that way but I think you are going to have to take the lead. 

If you aren't so tense and stressed out about it, maybe you can find out what the deal is with the wife. If it turns out she just is sloppy, out of love, doesn't care... may have to face some tough realities but until you know you can't address it.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

tryingtodoitright said:


> what do the wife and i do together that is positive? our most positive interaction is a mutual enjoyment of our children. we share daily in their scholastic and athletic achievements. we have several 'dates' each week where we sit down together, watch one or two TV shows that we both enjoy and discuss our days before, during (commercials) and after. when we can, we try to squeeze in dates, but this is tough since the house is such a wreck that we can't bring a babysitter in. this forces us to take them to a service, which is drastically more expensive than a babysitter.


I will say that this is not good quality time. TV is mind numbing and not good for interacting. Find something else. Play a game or put a puzzle together. Can your kids be home alone long enough for you two to take a 20-30 minute walk together?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

justtryin said:


> Unfortunately my time is very limited over the next couple days, I have a tremendous amount of explanation & advice for you. But I feel compelled to respond now rather than later so I'll do my best to give some helpful highlights.
> 
> Not believing in being the leader is a huge part of the problem. You think you are being collaborative but in reality it's a tug of war. Power struggle. You both want to lead certain aspects of the relationship, and you both want the other person to handle other aspects. The result is arguing, frustration, resentment, etc. deep down you know this. You expect her to pull her weight, and she expects you to - you expect her to fulfill your needs and vice versa - it's a chicken vs egg, a stalemate. Who will step up and take responsibility? Who will LEAD?
> 
> ...


This sounds exactly like what I have been trying to say since I have been on TAM!


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> Are you looking to solve a problem or just griping? If the latter, then fine but don't expect or hope for anything to change.


trying to solve it; i would hope that's obvious. looking for outside opinions because i'm too immersed to be objective.


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## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I will say that this is not good quality time. TV is mind numbing and not good for interacting. Find something else. Play a game or put a puzzle together. Can your kids be home alone long enough for you two to take a 20-30 minute walk together?


i've tried to suggest that (games, etc), but it isn't usually well received. she has her shows that she likes to watch... 

and our two youngest would likely brain each other, sadly. i could depend on the older ones, but two boys at young ages... lol.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

tryingtodoitright said:


> i've tried to suggest that (games, etc), but it isn't usually well received. she has her shows that she likes to watch...


What if you invited her, and if she refuses, go do it yourself? 



> and our two youngest would likely brain each other, sadly. i could depend on the older ones, but two boys at young ages... lol.


Can the oldest take care of the youngest? My point is that getting away from them for even a bit is good. Put a movie in for them, or something to keep them occupied while the two of you do something fun.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

You have to ask your wife to shut the TV off. Tell her your marriage is more important than TV. Just one night a week at least. 

And why does her preference dictate the evening activities? HER shows every night? What about what YOU want to do? 

I think you need to enlist friends or grandparents or if nothing else get a sitter one night.

I see SO many parents putting the kids first which is great when they need it but they need to see a cohesive parental unit more than anything. I hate it when I read/hear things like "my kids are my world" because the first thing I think is that person has zero life.

And yes, I'm a mother. But I was first a woman, second a wife and third a mother. I'm divorced from a husband who was abusive but I stand by my being a woman FIRST. My identity is NOT as a mother; my identity is from being me - a woman. And I think too many women forget that.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> What if you invited her, and if she refuses, go do it yourself?
> 
> 
> 
> Can the oldest take care of the youngest? My point is that getting away from them for even a bit is good. Put a movie in for them, or something to keep them occupied while the two of you do something fun.


Give them an incentive - "if I can leave you guys for 30 minutes and everyone behaves, then we'll go to the park tomorrow" - etc.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

lol

I'm curious how many of the people offering advice have been in a situation similar to the OP's shoes or worse, and have successfully turned it all around, to the most satisfying relationship they have ever had and are currently still in it. 

That's where I'm coming from. It's not theory for me. It's reality. And it's proven to work.

Anyone who disagrees is welcome to do their own thing, offer their own advice, and I wish them success with it. I'm not here to argue. To each his/her own. 

I'm here offering it up for free, and admittedly I'm not the best at giving this advice nor do I have the time to fill in all the blanks. Like I said it took me 6 months of intense studying, practice, and help from others who have gone through the same thing (I call it counseling but it wasn't counseling in the traditional sense, it was guys who have successfully been through the process). Knowing the outcome of that, where my wife and I are at today, I would have taken 6 years if I had to. It's that good.

I think most of you have said "I agree with parts but..." Well the parts you don't agree with are simply parts I'm not communicating very well, or else I know you'd agree. Have no doubt, it's all just as valid. These are universal principles. I'm just not the best person at getting it across. I'm doing this in my moments of free time, simply trying to help someone out. Explaining every detail and arguing about it takes a tremendous amount of time, I've said before I'm only scratching the surface and my posts are relatively long as it is for this site.

Holding her responsible and accountable seems to be the biggest hang up here that I'm not communicating well. One poster even said it, and I reiterated it - being a leader means HOLDING PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE. YES! I thought that was pretty clear. It's HOW you do that is where people get lost and confused and argumentative. Like I said before, you can do it in a way that pushes her away, or you can do it in a way that attracts her. I obviously haven't spent enough time explaining how to do that, because there is still a lot of confusion and debate. 

But I'm wearing thin. You can lead a horse to water but can't force it to drink. If other people have better solutions, go for it. I hope it works. Like I said I'm not here to argue. I'm here to TRY to enlighten. I know the way I speak of works, and I wish I would have discovered it years ago. They are fundamental, universal principles. But who am I.

If you want a more comprehensive and effective way to understand what I'm trying to get across, as well as all the answers, don't listen to me or try to struggle through my futile efforts. Go straight to the source like I did, look up Calle Zorro. I was skeptical too. But as you read his free posts and blogs, you will see the same universal principles and realize he seems to know exactly what he's talking about. There's a reason for that. There are even some posts where he talks precisely about couples who are in a stalemate, and wives who seem engaged in escape activities to the point that it is negatively affecting the marriage.
Maybe you will see it makes sense, but decide to try something else anyways. Good luck, maybe you'll have success. But if not, remember that resource is out there. Hopefully won't be too late by then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

justtryin said:


> lol
> 
> I'm curious how many of the people offering advice have been in a situation similar to the OP's shoes or worse, and have successfully turned it all around, to the most satisfying relationship they have ever had and are currently still in it.
> 
> ...


You are expecting him to accept a man on the internet, whom he does not know, as his guru. You complain he is not accepting what you write, but have started most of your replies to people complaining that they disagree with what you wrote and they did not understand your wisdom. That is an unreasonable expectation. Be grateful you can offer advice from a comparable situation and leave it there.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> You are expecting him to accept a man on the internet, whom he does not know, as his guru. You complain he is not accepting what you write, but have started most of your replies to people complaining that they disagree with what you wrote and they did not understand your wisdom. That is an unreasonable expectation. Be grateful you can offer advice from a comparable situation and leave it there.


Actually it appears to me that he isn't the one arguing about it, others are. He's just skeptical about certain principles, particularly those I haven't explained thoroughly enough. As for "guru", I specifically said I'm not very good at communicating all these concepts, and pointed to the resource that I learned from. Not sure how you would then qualify me as a "guru" considering that, but it was an amusing statement so thank you for the laugh.

Of course this is a free, anonymous internet forum and must be taken with a grain of salt. That's why everyone must make up their own mind and decide what path to choose. I'm simply PASSIONATE about it because I know how powerful and life changing these principles are and I am entirely confident that they work. Therefore of course I'm trying to do my best to drive the point home. If it bothers YOU, so be it. But I believe I've already uncovered some important information about his relationship and helped open his eyes to it. 

If you actually read this thread closely from the beginning you may see that. Anyways yes, bottom line it's just me, some random guy on the internet. Which is why I pointed to the resource that I learned from.

By the way Mr The Other - you seem to disagree with the principles I'm outlining...how is your relationship? If it's fully satisfying, I'm happy for you, and the OP could probably use some of your wisdom in how you achieved that.

If it's not, then perhaps I can be of some assistance to you as well. Send me a PM or point me to a thread you have created, I'd be more than happy to try and help. That's why I'm here, that's my goal. Simply to help. Like I said I'm passionate about it, now that I know what we are capable of creating in our lives and how to do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Meanwhile, tryingtodoitright, if there are specific questions or concepts you are struggling with still, let me know I'll do my best to explain how it works. Last looked like you were struggling with meeting her needs while yours weren't being met, and not rewarding poor behavior.


So lets back up a bit again. Her needs aren't being fully met, so she has little incentive to meet yours. So first you identify her most important needs and begin meeting them consistently. Why? Because you are taking the lead. You are taking responsibility for the relationship. You are showing her YOU are the man who knows her, who can meet her needs, who is valuable to her. She is losing that feeling right now, and likely has been for a long time. She's slowly checking out, subconsciously. I think if you look in your heart you know this, there are probably other signs not just the housecleaning. That's just a symptom.

By demonstrating that YOU are valuable to her, you will see some changes in her. Guarantee it. You are not rewarding poor behavior, you are bringing her BACK to you. Thinking of it as rewarding poor behavior at this point will only make your relationship worse. YOU are guilty of poor behavior too, by not meeting her needs. Right? So wouldn't SHE be rewarding YOUR poor behavior if she started doing what YOU wanted HER to do? See how this works - it's a stalemate, in fact it becomes a downward spiral.

So once again, we come to the whole "doormat" thing. How do you hold her accountable for not meeting your needs? First of all don't act like a doormat. Don't do things for her because you fear her reaction or upsetting her. If she asks you to get her a glass of water when you are busy and she isn't, then don't. That isn't "meeting her needs" in any way. You also don't need to get angry at her. You are a man, don't let your wife manipulate your emotions, she looks to you to be an emotional rock, a safe place for her. Simply ignore her unreasonable request and continue about your business. Or say calmly, firmly, "no". She may get pissy or try to draw you into an argument or reaction, but ignore anything after that. These are called "tests". She's subconsciously testing your masculinity. That's a very simple, very general explanation but hopefully you see the point. Another is when she talks disrespectfully to you or yells at you. Look in directly in the eyes, CALMLY suppress your emotions, and say "don't talk to me like that. when you're ready to talk to me respectfully I will listen to you." Then walk away. NO further response from you at all - in fact go do something enjoyable just to drive home that you are not affected by her emotions. Let her process your response. A few demonstrations like that and she will begin to get the message that she cannot get away with treating you like a doormat - you don't respond to unreasonable requests, and you call out disrespect on the spot, unemotionally, and then go about your business. Keep your responses very brief and calm. No arguing, no anger, no whining or complaining.

Once you have been demonstrating you know what her needs are and you meet them, and behaving in a more masculine fashion, and doing these things consistently, it will be time to start communicating your expectations again and confronting her - if she hasn't started doing them already. 

This stuff is for the long run. If you want instant turnaround and a perfect marriage overnight, I don't have any suggestions for you. This is an investment in yourself and your relationship. You can demand she start meeting your needs, you can wait for her to start meeting your needs, you can whine, complain, argue, get angry, etc. You can act like a doormat, or you could act like a hardass, a tough guy. I don't see how any of those will get you a sustainable, fully satisfying relationship. 

What I see is if you make your wife feel fully satisfied, and you are masculine in the sense that you are the leader, you hold everyone (including yourself) accountable, and in the ways I described previously, she will naturally DESIRE pleasing you in every way. Because she WANTS to, not because you make her feel bad or guilty or pressured or obligated or whatever. Think about the advice some other people give, and how your wife would see it. Would she feel obligated? Guilty? Pressured? Think those are good, healthy feelings that will net the both of you a long lasting beautiful relationship? 

Very likely when you first fell in love, she desired pleasing you, just as you did her. You pleased each other, you exhibited your masculine traits, and she was willing to do whatever she could to keep you and make you happy. She has that within her, and so do you. The trick is getting it back and keeping it that way - if not even better, due to the stronger emotional bond you two are capable of after so much time together.

...


I want to share a little insight into my personal situation for a moment, maybe it's relevant, maybe not. I knew my relationship was not as good as it should be, that something wasn't right. It was hard to pinpoint, subtle, gradually getting worse. But every marriage has ups and downs, right? After a few years (that's right, years) it was really starting to eat at me. So subtle, little things, no big deal, but just seems it could be better. Ironically, she wasn't complaining much anymore and she seemed fine, said she was fine. But I knew I probably wasn't doing the best at meeting her needs. I though I did pretty good, but admittedly not perfect. So one day I just decided to send her a little text, saying how I specifically appreciated her and the things she does for me and our family. No big deal, but I thought it might make her feel good.

She happened to be shopping in the store at the time she got the text. She told me she broke down and cried right in the middle of the store. That got my attention.

That's how badly her needs were NOT being met, despite me thinking I do such a great job, I'm such a great provider and all that. I didn't even know specifically what her strongest needs were, I had my OWN ideas of what her needs were - that's why I though I did a pretty good job meeting them. But that one little text broke her down. Imagine how long she had been going not feeling appreciated in the right way, how that affected her subconsciously, and therefore our relationship. Turns out that was just the TIP of the iceberg. That was when I finally started to see my role, how I can be the agent of change in the relationship, rather than blame her or wait for her to start meeting MY needs and treating ME right. Such a simple little act, so easy...I just didn't recognize my wife's specific emotional needs from me. Once I began discovering her REAL needs and meeting them fully and consistently (and it's very easy, and enjoyable to do, it's never "work" meeting your spouse's needs if you're doing it right) yes I then was faced with doormat "tests" and needed a lot of work on my masculinity, which was a word I had misconceptions about (thinking macho tough guy). I had a LOT of work to do on myself. 

But lo and behold, just like "magic", once I was behaving and operating in the best ways for myself and for her, in the right ways, she naturally began to respond differently towards me without her even realizing it. I was EARNING her respect, so she was treating me accordingly. I was fully meeting her needs, and she was feeling so good she began glowing. Seriously. She began playing with the kids rather than yelling at them. I was behaving more masculine than I had in who knows how long, and she became very attracted to me again, in every way... Our entire relationship turned around and has reached levels that it never has in the past. And the most awesome part is, I did it ON PURPOSE. I know exactly what to do and how to do it, and why it works. Meaning I can keep our relationship this way for the rest of our lives - and all SHE did was respond to me. Do you know what an incredible feeling that is? Does it make sense why I'm so passionate about this now? I may be terrible in how I communicate it, which is again why I point to Calle Zorro where I learned it all, but that doesn't mean I won't try. I know anytime someone suggests something that costs money, they're going to be skeptical, which is why I'm trying to outline the truth of these principles. Hopefully I'm not doing such a terrible job that I'm doing the opposite! I urge you to check his stuff out though, if I'm not getting through or not sounding legit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Justtryin,

Your personal story really helped shed some light on how your suggestions can be applied and actually lead to results. Thanks for sharing your story, and I'm glad you're in a happy marriage now.

:smthumbup:


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## Sweetpea12 (Jun 29, 2014)

Try to sit down and talk to her bout it , express ur concern....I'm not sure but maybe she has a mild OCD behavior and in this case maybe it's with reading/ books.


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