# What's causing the sex wars?



## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Our world is changing. I have said dozens of times before. Our society and culture have not been able to keep up with all of the changes, which are occurring at an ever increasing rate and will continue to for the fore seeable future.

These changes are placing tremendous stress on traditional values, mores and constructs. We no longer live on the edge of life or death. Technology is rendering human input into production less and less relevant. Birth control and enlightenment are liberating women in ways never before possible. This is having a profound affect on the roles the sexes play in our society.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Machjo said:


> Though I had suffered abuse at the hands of women both in my childhood (in the form of sexual abuse from a babysitter) and in my first marriage (in the form of both sexual and emotional abuse), my present wife respects me. I also find that my friends and their spouses and children seem to get along well too. Yet the more I read online English and French media, the more I get the impression that an all-out sex war is brewing between men and women.
> 
> Of course we can blame feminists, or men's rights activists, or* social-justice worriers*, or whoever else we might want to blame; but that's superficial. What are your theories on what might be feeding the ever-heating sex wars?
> 
> ...


Freudian slip?


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Ynot has some very good points. I also believe that the media is the scum of the world and will perpetuate anything controversial weather big, small, true, or not. The pendulum swings to the extreme
even when the driving force doesn't exist. The "look at me" culture isn't helping. #metoo needed to happen but I wonder how many are just beating there chest on the platform at the expense of the
truly affected.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Mr.Married said:


> Ynot has some very good points. I also believe that the media is the scum of the world and will perpetuate anything controversial weather big, small, true, or not. The pendulum swings to the extreme
> even when the driving force doesn't exist. The "look at me" culture isn't helping. *#metoo needed to happen but I wonder how many are just beating there chest on the platform at the expense of the truly affected.*


Very few. Not a single #metoo I saw on social media was a surprise, not to me, anyway. Every woman I know has experienced sexual harassment, and many of them have experienced sexual assault of some kind. Multiple times. There isn't a single woman out there claiming #metoo and is lying about it. If anything, there are a lot of women who could claim #metoo, but aren't. I had to think about it for a few days before I did, because I was uncomfortable putting it out there. And because it's painful to think about.

I was sexually harassed every day in high school. When I was in college and throughout my 20s and early 30s, men would follow me on the street, yell at me from car windows, and stalk me like prey in CVS and convenience stores. I have to carry mace and know how to use my keys as a weapon if necessary.

It's not chest beating. It's real.

ETA: Oh, and I've been sexually assaulted. Twice. Once by a date, and another time by a man who I thought was my friend.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

FeministInPink said:


> Very few. Not a single #metoo I saw on social media was a surprise, not to me, anyway. Every woman I know has experienced sexual harassment, and many of them have experienced sexual assault of some kind. Multiple times. There isn't a single woman out there claiming #metoo and is lying about it. If anything, there are a lot of women who could claim #metoo, but aren't. I had to think about it for a few days before I did, because I was uncomfortable putting it out there. And because it's painful to think about.
> 
> I was sexually harassed every day in high school. When I was in college and throughout my 20s and early 30s, men would follow me on the street, yell at me from car windows, and stalk me like prey in CVS and convenience stores. I have to carry mace and know how to use my keys as a weapon if necessary.
> 
> ...


I'm reading back on my post ..... I'm not sure if I came off wrong. I'm not claiming the "look at me" culture is the backbone of the movement. I believe the majority of it is real.
I however believe that the "look at me's" are having an unfortunate dilution of the real victim needs.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Mr.Married said:


> I'm reading back on my post ..... I'm not sure if I came off wrong. I'm not claiming the "look at me" culture is the backbone of the movement. I believe the majority of it is real.
> I however believe that the "look at me's" are having an unfortunate dilution of the real victim needs.


I have to disagree. These high profile allegations are showing women/victims that they can speak out, and someone will believe them. That someone will listen to them. Most rapes go unreported because the victims think they won't be believed, that they will be judged. All too often, our society casts blame back on the victim, asking what were you wearing? What were you drinking? And the like.

This is giving people the courage to tell their stories. I actually think the "look at me" culture created an atmosphere in which this movement could happen!


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

FeministInPink said:


> I have to disagree. These high profile allegations are showing women/victims that they can speak out, and someone will believe them. That someone will listen to them. Most rapes go unreported because the victims think they won't be believed, that they will be judged. All too often, our society casts blame back on the victim, asking what were you wearing? What were you drinking? And the like.
> 
> This is giving people the courage to tell their stories. I actually think the "look at me" culture created an atmosphere in which this movement could happen!


I actually think the "look at me" culture created an atmosphere in which this movement could happen!

The above is an interesting point not previously considered. It could bring voice to the real victims as well as flush in the liars.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

FeministInPink said:


> Very few. Not a single #metoo I saw on social media was a surprise, not to me, anyway. Every woman I know has experienced sexual harassment, and many of them have experienced sexual assault of some kind. Multiple times. There isn't a single woman out there claiming #metoo and is lying about it. If anything, there are a lot of women who could claim #metoo, but aren't. I had to think about it for a few days before I did, because I was uncomfortable putting it out there. And because it's painful to think about.
> 
> I was sexually harassed every day in high school. When I was in college and throughout my 20s and early 30s, men would follow me on the street, yell at me from car windows, and stalk me like prey in CVS and convenience stores. I have to carry mace and know how to use my keys as a weapon if necessary.
> 
> ...


As a young person, sexual harassment was just the water I swam in. I always walked with a key poised to take an eye out. I crossed the street to avoid walking past a man or men if I was walking alone. The catcalls only bothered me if I feared escalation. I would never show them what I really thought in the form of a middle finger or whatever lest it drive the situation to escalation. Over the years, I have been cornered, followed, groped. I never ever loved it. I hate it. But there was nothing to be done about it.When I was molested by a teacher, I felt that I had done something wrong. Somewhere I knew that it was not right in the deep recesses of my thoughts. When I told, he was dealt with... sort of. But it was very hush hush. When I was raped, I just dealt.

I would never presume to tell a black person targeted by the police on suspicion of being black or watched with suspicion up going to a store that s/he was not "truly affected" because s/he was never lynched. The arrogance in that presumption with no experience would be staggering.

I don't think a lot has changed from when I was growing up except that young women (and we oldsters) are speaking up. And LISTENED to. We no longer have to bear the silent shame that has been put on women for their unwitting participation in these things. Some people still try to place it. What were you wearing? What is your sexual history like? As if having sex with one person entitles all comers to same. But that sort of thing is gradually lessening in the popular acceptance as more and more stories come out and the conversation is more open.

I think the root cause remains the same. Boys are taught, both directly and through more indirect messages, weird stuff about what it means to be a MAN. I am lucky that I had many good role models of wonderful men in my life including my father and brothers. So my experience lead me simply to look closely at my potential partners for who they ARE in their hearts and heads. I found a great one! But there are many boys who still have wacky ideas about male/female relationships or general interaction. By then 13 year old daughter was accosted on a subway platform (she was blessedly oblivious to all the leers she had gotten up to that point). She was cornered and pawed by a grown man. She did not want to ride the subway again for the rest of the trip. At the ripe old age of 11, she had boys on social media asking for nudes. She has had boys at her school yell I've got a big **** when she politely turned them down for dates. She has been called c*nt by a car full of high school boys jeering at her. 

Was she truly affected?

These boys are still being raised this way. Thankfully my daughter will never face a family, friends or society who will silently ignore this sort of thing. Instead she has the confidence to say F You you stupid dink. And find good boys who are interested in the same things she is.

ETA: I know you were not perpetuating the "truly affected" business, but the person to whom you replied did. It all fell in the same set of thoughts.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

@NobodySpecial Brilliant post!

Another thing about this movement is that it is showing men that we get to decide what is acceptable behavior in regards to our bodies and our sexuality, and that we will no longer accept "Boys will be boys."

And that whole "Boys will be boys" is really an insult to men, too. It implies that men don't have the mental capacity to be better or take responsibility for their actions, which is bull****.

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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

There are many innocent men who are being slanted and victimized by the movement. Garrison Keeler for one.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

FeministInPink said:


> @NobodySpecial Brilliant post!
> 
> Another thing about this movement is that it is showing men that we get to decide what is acceptable behavior in regards to our bodies and our sexuality, and that we will no longer accept "Boys will be boys."
> 
> ...


Agreed. All men should find the sentiment you write about in your second paragraph insulting.

I’ve also believed we men should have done a far better job of “policing our own.”


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

In light of the on going discussion, it does serve to highlight the topic of the thread. Because simultaneously to the MeToo movement, the third movie in the series Fifty Shades of Gray was the best selling movie. So once again, we are seeing the mixed messages being sent out by our society.
An aspect of the sex wars is the tension between the various messages being sent and received by both sides. Some men are confused as to which one is valid, some women pick and choose which side they agree with depending on the circumstances. The confusion and the vacillation both undermine understanding.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Don't ignore Russian social media intervention on wedge issues. They have been caught trying to increase racial tensions, this could easily be the same. 

In general women have had less rights in the past, and whenever a disadvantaged group starts to gain equality there is push back. But also whenever a disadvantaged group starts to gain equality, there are members of the group who want to take if further, to compensate for past wrongs.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> As a young person, sexual harassment was just the water I swam in. I always walked with a key poised to take an eye out. I crossed the street to avoid walking past a man or men if I was walking alone. The catcalls only bothered me if I feared escalation. I would never show them what I really thought in the form of a middle finger or whatever lest it drive the situation to escalation. Over the years, I have been cornered, followed, groped. I never ever loved it. I hate it. But there was nothing to be done about it.When I was molested by a teacher, I felt that I had done something wrong. Somewhere I knew that it was not right in the deep recesses of my thoughts. When I told, he was dealt with... sort of. But it was very hush hush. When I was raped, I just dealt.
> 
> I would never presume to tell a black person targeted by the police on suspicion of being black or watched with suspicion up going to a store that s/he was not "truly affected" because s/he was never lynched. The arrogance in that presumption with no experience would be staggering.
> 
> ...


Yep... "sexual harassment was just the water I swam in"


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

On the topic of sexual harassment, every guy has been a victim of it too. Just pointing that out because the me too movement is very one sided in the thought processes of many. I've certainly been sexually harassed hundreds of times and I also don't know any man who hasn't experienced this in his life.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Don't ignore Russian social media intervention on wedge issues. They have been caught trying to increase racial tensions, this could easily be the same.
> 
> In general women have had less rights in the past, and whenever a disadvantaged group starts to gain equality there is push back. But also whenever a disadvantaged group starts to gain equality, there are members of the group who want to take if further, to compensate for past wrongs.


I can't speak to your first statement, as I simply don't know enough to have an informed opinion.

I think you are certainly correct in the second statement, though I do not think we have yet reached that point with the #metoo movement. There are, of course, high-profile cases calling specific individuals to task over their specific behavior in the past, which I agree with, as long as it is within the statute of limitations. Most women in the #metoo movement don't care about compensation for past wrongs, we just want things to change and we don't want to be harassed anymore.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> On the topic of sexual harassment, every guy has been a victim of it too. Just pointing that out because the me too movement is very one sided in the thought processes of many. I've certainly been sexually harassed hundreds of times and I also don't know any man who hasn't experienced this in his life.


Yes, the #metoo movement IS one-side. It's about females experiencing sexual harassment as a pervasive part of our every day life, constantly. Which is a little different than what you're talking about.

Hopefully the changes and policies that result from this movement will benefit male victims of harassment as well, the way that the push for paid maternity leave in the professional world has also resulted in many more companies offering paternity leave as well. Many policies that benefit women have a positive effect on the lives of men as well.


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

I don't think it is all that different, I just believe there is a double standard as to what is sexual harassment and so many lines are blurred when you talk about what is appropriate and innocent flirting from the mans perspective. 

https://youtu.be/bQFlUJkOvkE

You don't have to watch that whole video, just the opening exchange. The just reverse the genders and think about the repercussion of that. I don't think there is anything wrong there at all as it seems like casual flirting. Btw, I like that song that is how I found that video. I wasn't out searching for women groping men on tv. I doubt that video would be in that search anyway. But this is typical of what I'm talking about is that its perfectly socially acceptable for a man to have his chest rubbed on and things like that and its no big deal. 

Obviously I'm not in any way condoning men groping women in any way shape or form. I'm simply suggesting that the lines of casual flirting are really skewed for a man and they are getting even more blurry by the day. Putting aside any physical touch, just a flirtatious conversation with a woman is becoming scary for men. Put aside any touching and two guys opening flirting with a female performer and telling her she looks beautiful on a TV program is instantly labeled as sexual harassment and misogyny. Or his words have to be chosen extremely carefully and said with extreme tact. Otherwise we are talking career suicide. Some of the metoo stuff that is being called out looks exactly like that interaction above. Blurred lines are getting even more messy every day. 

Every guy I know has been rubbed on by a woman in that same manner. Every guy I know has has women throw out comments in the workplace similar to the ones that are costing men their careers. It is going to reach a point where men are scared to approach women. This isn't going to end well for anyone. Having the creeps busted and ruined is awesome. Unfortunately a lot of good men are going to fall in the process and men are paying attention. I read the Aziz Ansari story and think to myself, thank god I'm married. I would be scared out of my mind to be in the dating game right now. I would rather stay single and just jerk off and use an escort service from time to time. Seems much safer which is freaking crazy to say.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

The metoo movement is mostly ghost hunting. Many consider what I did to my wife and several other partners as sexual harrassment, I kissed her without asking. Since she wanted me to it was fine, but most feminist consider it sexual assault if I had misread her thoughts and she didn't want it. 

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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Read the Aziz story. You can engage in consensual sexual activities with a woman and the next day out of nowhere have your name blasted on the news. Highly unlikely an escort would do that to you. Even with your own story, an escort is going to only want to play safe. An escort wouldn't have done what that woman did to you.


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Well I stand corrected. I've never done any research into that field as ive never had any interest in it. My comment was more of a shock statement designed to express how terrified I would be to be single and in the dating game at the moment. The Aziz story scared the hell out of me. That can happen to anyone. I read another where a woman had a threesome with a married couple after a dinner. She said she only did it to be nice and didn't know how to politely excuse herself from the offer and situation. Blamed men for having said yes because "patriarchal society pushed her towards that decision" 

Hell if my wife wanted to she could claim I'm some sexual deviant. I mean, she is bent over doing the laundry or something and I smack her booty. What husband hasn't done that? Now if we get a divorce, she can tell these stories and I would be labeled a creep and have my name smeared in the public eye and my future ruined. If I were to say "sometimes I would be washing the dishes and she would come up behind me and start groping me, rubbing my chest and grabbing my butt" who would care? Nobody would. But if my wife said the same things, it would certainly be a different story. 

That Blake Shelton video is COMMON. That happens to men a TON. Nobody really cares. I've seen a Ricky Gervais one that is similar where he comes out and the women hosts on the talk show all start rubbing on his chest. These are the same women who will tell you no means no and yes sometimes means no and sometimes no means try harder and sometimes yes means yes. Its like, wtf do you want a man to do with that information? Because its going to scare a lot of guys off. Then the battle will be about how men stop approaching women. What is wrong with men these days where they need a woman to approach them? Are men turning soft? Why are men not confident?

We've been told all our lives by women that they want a man with confidence. Confidence is the most attractive thing. Nice guys finish last. Unsure guys don't do anything for me. They can be nice but if they are scared to make a move they go into the friend zone.

Gonna be a lot of friend zoned men out there going forward because men are simply going to be too scared to make a move. The thing is men do care about women and want the real creeps destroyed. Innocent men are going to go down and men are going to take note and adjust their behaviours. Next thing will be the #MenAreSoft movement telling men to make a move already because women want to be chased and they are repressed because men are no longer making the move and its unfair to women all over to have to do all the hunting.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think part of the problem is that the media sells more views / pages / whatever by focusing on the most extreme people in an issue. 

Hearing about women who just want and end to harassment is dull - much better to focus on the tiny minority who think all men are evil. (or same for the other side).

I agree with going after anything within the statute of limitations, but I think sometimes some people forget why we have those limitations. Its not that the crimes aren't sever, but that after many years peoples memories are bad, the evidence if any is stale, and in some cases society idea of acceptable behavior has completely changed even if the laws haven't changed.







FeministInPink said:


> I can't speak to your first statement, as I simply don't know enough to have an informed opinion.
> 
> I think you are certainly correct in the second statement, though I do not think we have yet reached that point with the #metoo movement. There are, of course, high-profile cases calling specific individuals to task over their specific behavior in the past, which I agree with, as long as it is within the statute of limitations. Most women in the #metoo movement don't care about compensation for past wrongs, we just want things to change and we don't want to be harassed anymore.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> There are many innocent men who are being slanted and victimized by the movement. Garrison Keeler for one.


I don't think he's the guy you want to cite. He sounds like a real pig.

Al Franken, on the other hand, was pretty much railroaded out of the Senate for nothing. Aziz Ansari is also being unfairly demonized for not being able to read his date's mind, and when she actually got around to actually bothering to say the word "No," he stopped immediately.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Notself said:


> I don't think he's the guy you want to cite. He sounds like a real pig.
> 
> Al Franken, on the other hand, was pretty much railroaded out of the Senate for nothing. Aziz Ansari is also being unfairly demonized for not being able to read his date's mind, and when she actually got around to actually bothering to say the word "No," he stopped immediately.


I disagree. I think Keeler is a good egg. Look up what happened. He inadvertently and accidentaly touched a woman and immediately apologized to her profusely. At first she told him it was okay and then a few weeks later she's calling a lawyer. 

Keeler is known for disliking physical touch of any kind. He's a bit on the Autistic Spectrum, and avoids human touch whenever possible. It's a phobia. And no other women have ever come forward to say he was abusive to them... and he has worked with lots of women over his decades on Prairie Home Companion.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> And no other women have ever come forward to say he was abusive to them... and he has worked with lots of women over his decades on Prairie Home Companion.


Unfortunately you have old information.
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...ns-claims-sexual-harassment-article-1.3775063


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Well **** it... 

You got me. Actually, I think this cleansing of the entertainment industry is a good thing. Still, there will be some innocent men who will suffer. Just saying.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> Well **** it...
> 
> You got me. Actually, I think this cleansing of the entertainment industry is a good thing. Still, there will be some innocent men who will suffer. Just saying.


Totally agree and it pays to be skeptical. I feel like if one person or maybe even two people accuse someone, that shouldn't be enough to convict anyone in the court of public opinion. People should be allowed to make mistakes. And look at poor Jeffrey Tambor. Now there's a guy who's been railroaded.

Arrested Development actors stand behind Jeffrey Tambor, David Cross says | EW.com


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Sex wars? well I have been put down by women for holding a door open for her a few times. I never cat-called any female so maybe that is part of my low success rate with women. Yes, friend zoned. A Nice guy takes a L O N G time to get noticed.

I agree too many men with over rated egos or that have lots of power can and do exploit women. I was the only male in a "women's issues" class in college so I saw first hand what several females went through. 

I dumped a few make friends that thought females were there for their talking or pleasure.

I would be nervous in any new romantic relationship because of some of this #me too stuff. I probably come across to most women as a safe friend and nothing more. Physical touch is my main love line but I won't go there. There is too big of a chance it might back-fire if I expressed my wants or desires. I might now come across as "not interested" or a dud, but I fear the risk of being more physical with everyone.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Well I read the whole thread and I am in no way convinced there is any war between the sexes. There will always be some disagreement over gender issues, I don't see now as much different.

Metoo is a big deal, but most of the men I know aren't offended by it and think most of it is good while realizing when there are this many allegations a few will be specious.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Mr.Married said:


> Ynot has some very good points. I also believe that the media is the scum of the world and will perpetuate anything controversial weather big, small, true, or not. The pendulum swings to the extreme
> even when the driving force doesn't exist. The "look at me" culture isn't helping. #metoo needed to happen but I wonder how many are just beating there chest on the platform at the expense of the
> truly affected.


You're entitled to your opinion, but media is one of the things I am most thankful for and fear losing the most. Some publications/broadcasts are garbage, but some restaurants are awful and I don't condemn all of them based upon that.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

Notself said:


> Unfortunately you have old information.
> http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...ns-claims-sexual-harassment-article-1.3775063


Once one does it there's usually a bandwagon affect....

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