# Last Off-Ramp



## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Hello everyone.

Here's an update on my situation. The long and the short of it is that I've been in an emotionally and verbally abusive marriage for quite some time. The last 12 - 18 months have been the worst. I've been accused of some very bizarre things and when I wasn't under some kind of false accusation, I was being talked down to, scolded, been called names, etc. We tried counseling for a year until my wife refused to return. We sleep in separate rooms and have not had sex in over a year.

For about 6 months, I was actually praying for death. I wanted God to kill me in a traffic accident. Or I hoped maybe a random stranger would kill me. I could never harm myself by my own hand, but I did desire death and actively prayed for it. I've been told this is a common feeling for people in abusive relationships. Since I began to accept the fact that I might need to leave, I haven't wished for death again. But that was a very, very dark time for me. I tried as hard as I could to please her, and she just got more angy all the time. Since even my best efforts weren't good enough to make her happy, I despaired of living.

But once I realized that a lot of the problems were hers, I quit taking responsibility for pleasing her. I don't wish for death any more. But the relationship hasn't been restored, either.

Our (now my) counselor says I need to leave. We suspect some serious mental issues on my wife's part. The counselor is concerned that at some point, my wife might get somebody to believe her weird stories (the best one was the accusation that I was bugging our home phones, but there have been others!). We never have a conversation over anything any deeper than what to have for supper. 

So I've set up a PO Box, and have rented a room in a house with some local college students. Don't know if I'll actually use it, but I do have a (somewhat cheap) bed to crash in if I need it. I've rented a storage unit and have moved a lot of my things into it, but I've done it strategically, so that I didn't leave empty shelves or anything like that in my closet. I have put together some preliminary proposals for divorce (child custody, alimony, etc) and have consulted with an attorney. I have a counselor's appointment in a few hours. 

My wife leaves town tomorrow for a week with her family (her visit is unrelated to our issues; but she has so poisoned her family to me that they have completely written me off and they have forbidden me to come back whenever she visits).

Here's the difficult part. The last few weeks have been almost tolerable. Not good. Not affectionate. No "I love you's." No touching (I'm afraid to touch her, because of some past false allegations of abuse). But we've actually acted like we're almost roommates who like each other. We're still roommates, but we're not at each others' throats (figuratively, of course!) every night like we were a couple of months ago.

Here's what I need to talk to the counselor about....is this slight thaw enough to say things might be improving? Most of my friends tell me that without a radical decision on her part to seek help on her own, that this slight thaw really means nothing in the grand scheme of things. And when I'm thinking clearly, I probably agree. But I just don't want to be "that guy" who walks out the door if there's still a chance.

In the past, I've been pulled back from the brink of considering divorce by periods of temporary improvement. One such period was the happiest period of our marriage (she was on anti-depressants at the time, but refuses to take them any more). But the 12-18 monhts of happiness always end with a crash back down to pits of despair. Ridicule, name-calling, smear campaigns....you name it. The only thing she hasn't done is anything illegal or had an affair.

One of my friends asked what "a chance" would look like. And then my friend explained it to me: She needs to confess her part of our problems (so far, she just wants me to get "fixed" and then things will be great!). She needs to commit to counseling. She needs to be willing to go to everyone to whom she's smeared my name and sit down with them, me and her and discuss what's really going on. My friend told me that absent that kind of commitment, this temporary thaw is just that....temporary. And that I shouldn't be basing my future on just a couple of months after almost 2 years of a living hell.

My counselor is warning me of the potential for my wife to become angry, make another false allegation, and that I could lose my son. Or my job. Or my very freedom. The counselor has worked with us for a year, and I'm wondering if she's seeing something more clearly than I can. I'm just so lost.

I'm emotionally ready to leave. I tried my hardest to make it work and things just got worse. I have given up hope. I'm emotionally wrung out from holding out hope on all those lonely nights. All those tears I cried alone, hoping that one more visit to the counselor might make things better. I just want the drama to be done.

But am I giving up too soon? My heart has accepted that things are probably ending and I need to move on. But then I see the smallest glimmer of a change in her and I wonder if I'm being too impulsive? Am I wrong to want out? Could this be the beginning of a bigger change? Or is it the same-old, same-old?

I feel as if with everything I am doing, I am getting ready to head out across Death Valley on a summer day. I know things will get very ugly once I tell her I'm leaving. I'm about to pass the last exit ramp. If I don't pull back from this brink now, I'm probably going to be committed to a divorce (my wife is very black-and-white in her thinking; once I make my intentions known, she'll torch me to all of our friends and family).

I'm going to talk to the counselor in a few hours, but I'd appreciate any perspective here. Those of you who know my story....is it time? Am I acting wrongly here? If your wife had told people things about you that were completely and utterly untrue, would you stay around if she slowly started saying, "Please" and "Thank You?" Am I suffering from Stockholm Syndrome?

This would be so much easier if she were disordered in her thinking ALL the time! As it is, the temporary periods of positive moods makes me wonder if I was crazy the whole time.

Ugghhhh!


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Hurt:
That is exactly what abusive people are like. Some of the time they are pleasant, and that is why it is so hard to leave them. You keep hoping that they have changed. If you want to see the real abuser, just challenge her on something.

I think you have come to a place of hard-won clarity. You can always pull the divorce papers if your wife shows any interest in working on her problems. She needs a lot of help, and she has to recognize that she has mental issues.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> Hurt:
> That is exactly what abusive people are like. Some of the time they are pleasant, and that is why it is so hard to leave them. You keep hoping that they have changed. If you want to see the real abuser, just challenge her on something.
> 
> .


Interesting that you mention this. Just last week, we were cleaning out some stuff in the garage. She was getting irritated about something and started speaking to me in a tone that was less-than-respectful. I didn't raise my voice or do anything inappropriate, but I just calmly said, "I don't appreciate it when you use that tone of voice with me." That was it.

The rest of the evening was bizarre. She kept accusing me of being the angry one. She kept hammering me with things like, "Did you have a bad day at work? Is everything OK with your work car? Why are you in such a bad mood?" and on and on and on. 

All I did was enforce a boundary, and it screwed up the whole rest of the evening. No, I take that back....I enforced the boundary and SHE screwed up the rest of the evening with her reaction to it.

The sad thing is, this particular argument wasn't even in our top 10 for intensity.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

When you get through this mess and find a good woman, you will shake your head at how long you put up with her abuse. It is hard to be objective when you worked so hard to maintain your marriage. 

Does your family agree with your counselor that this is the right thing to do? They know her and have your best interests at heart.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

hurt, 

Did you read DailyGrind's thread? In some sense it's similar to yours. Him and his wife were cold for the last year or so, they weren't sleeping together, etc. 

Would being intimate with her improve your marriage?


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

keko said:


> hurt,
> 
> Did you read DailyGrind's thread? In some sense it's similar to yours. Him and his wife were cold for the last year or so, they weren't sleeping together, etc.
> 
> Would being intimate with her improve your marriage?


Not really. It's hard to be intimate with someone who has falsely accused you of abuse. I feel that I have had my good name betrayed, a lot of family members now hate me because of the false things she's said about me.

The last time we tried (over a year ago), I got her all worked up. Just as I was about to - um - go all out, she looked up at me with a tear in her eye and said, "Please don't break my heart again...." Just for some background info, she has accused me of breaking her heart when I put too much sugar in the homemade spaghetti sauce I was making. With that kind of threshhold, it's impossible to avoid "breaking her heart." I couldn't continue.

Lack of intimacy in our marriage is the symptom. I don't wish to be intimate with someone who looks at me with such contempt.

Her lack of love for me is the problem. I just bring up the intimacy aspect as an indicator of how messed up things have gotten.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> When you get through this mess and find a good woman, you will shake your head at how long you put up with her abuse. It is hard to be objective when you worked so hard to maintain your marriage.
> 
> Does your family agree with your counselor that this is the right thing to do? They know her and have your best interests at heart.


I haven't talked to my family about this. I don't like dragging extended families into marital issues (unlike her!). Also, my family isn't exactly respectful of boundaries either and I'm afraid one of them would let the news slip before the time was right.

My friends who understand the situation agree that this is my best move. But my family is really in the dark. I'm sure they noticed how little true affection there is between us nowadays. But I don't think they know everything behind the scenes.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

hurtnohio said:


> I haven't talked to my family about this. I don't like dragging extended families into marital issues (unlike her!). Also, my family isn't exactly respectful of boundaries either and I'm afraid one of them would let the news slip before the time was right.
> 
> My friends who understand the situation agree that this is my best move. But my family is really in the dark. I'm sure they noticed how little true affection there is between us nowadays. But I don't think they know everything behind the scenes.


Makes sense. I think that people who know you could offer a more objective perspective on what your wife is like, and help you reach a decision.


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## mrsamazing (Feb 9, 2012)

what? No speech about bpd? She is very ill! I don't think she will change. To quote Dr Phil, its better to be from a broken home than to live in one. Think of the child. What is he learning living this life?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

mrsamazing said:


> what? No speech about bpd? She is very ill! I don't think she will change. To quote Dr Phil, its better to be from a broken home than to live in one. Think of the child. What is he learning living this life?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sure how you meant this..bpd is the mental issue I think is going on here. Didn't realize I made "speeches" about it.

I do think the problem either needs to be fixed or I need to leave. Our son observing no marriage is better than a bad marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mrsamazing (Feb 9, 2012)

hurtnohio said:


> Not sure how you meant this..bpd is the mental issue I think is going on here. Didn't realize I made "speeches" about it.
> 
> I do think the problem either needs to be fixed or I need to leave. Our son observing no marriage is better than a bad marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh my bad. I didnt mean you Hurt. I just meant that anytime someone posts about and abusive spouse, someone else post about how they are probably bpd, as if that is some sort of solution. Sorry, it was a misplaced rant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Had a good session with IC tonite. She continues to be concerned about the potential for false abuse.claims. She helped me work through my questions.

Got home and my wife surprised me by asking if I had found US a counselor yet. She refuses to go back to our old.counselor because she claims I lied and made up stories about her. But she says she is willing to try someone new.

I dont know if I have the emotional energy to doo all this again. Maybe I should as a good faith effort. But I dont think it will be effective. Im afraid it will just delay the inevitable.
_Posteod via Mobile Device_


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

hurtnohio:

Only YOU know if you have reached the end of your rope with this relationship. None of us here can help you reach that decision. You should speak to your counselor and ask her what HER opinion is on the viability of joint counseling again with your wife.

Spend some quiet time ALONE this weekend, preferably away from the house and all distractions (maybe a park?). Bring some paper and a pencil. THINK about your marriage, past and present.

Make some lists (so you can focus):

* What do YOU want out of life? Where would you like to be in 5yrs? 10yrs? 20yrs? At the end of your life?

* What is (realistically) the 'best case' scenario for your marriage as it stands now?

* What is (realistically) the 'worst case' scenario for your marriage as it stands now?

* What would likely be the 'best case' scenario if you divorced your wife?

* What would likely be the 'worst case' scenario if you divorced your wife?

Don't forget to include your child/ren in the equation.

Spend a few hours contemplating the reality and the possibilities. See if THIS gives you any insight or clarity on what your next moves should be.

Best wishes!


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> hurtnohio:
> 
> Only YOU know if you have reached the end of your rope with this relationship. None of us here can help you reach that decision. You should speak to your counselor and ask her what HER opinion is on the viability of joint counseling again with your wife.
> 
> ...


Great idea. I've done stuff like this before. Frequently, I'll do it in a cemetary. Something about being in a solemn place where we all will end up that focuses your thoughts. Not sure if that's macabre, but it works for me.

Everyone in my life (whom I trust) is telling me I should be leaving soon. But now that she's at least cracked the door open on a different counselor, I have to at least consider it. I think she's "answer shopping." But I have to at least consider the possibility she might really be willing to work on things.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

I talked some with my counselor again today (the one that was previously our marriage counselor, but which my wife refuses to go back to because I "lie"). She said it sounds like my wife is "answer shopping," trying to find a counselor who will take "her side." 

She recommended that I approach this situation like this: "I don't think we are ready to resume marriage counseling right now as a couple. We both have issues that probably need to be dealt with on an individual basis. So I think it would be great if you want to start going to your own counselor for now. At some point in the future, we can consider going back as a couple."

She said my wife's reaction to this might be VERY revealing as to whether my wife is willing to work on things or not.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

hurtnohio said:


> Most of my friends tell me that without a radical decision on her part to seek help on her own, that this slight thaw really means nothing in the grand scheme of things. And when I'm thinking clearly, I probably agree.


Hurt, please listen to your friends. And listen to the logical adult part of your mind.


> In the past, I've been pulled back from the brink of considering divorce by periods of temporary improvement.


Me too. Indeed, I spent 15 years reading too much into the up periods of the cycle. BIG MISTAKE. Please stop doing it.


> My counselor is warning me of the potential for my wife to become angry, make another false allegation, and that I could lose my son.


Given your objective of wanting to avoid jail time and to share custody of your son, it is helpful to separate while she is in one of her better moods. Yet, if you are going to get all mushy and start doubting yourself every time her behavior returns to "tolerable," you will end up splitting at the nastiest of times -- thus having to negotiate a settlement at the worst possible time. Moreover, as your counselor says, every day you remain with her puts you at great risk of her making another false allegation -- perhaps putting you in jail as my BPDer exW did to me.


> But am I giving up too soon?


No. On the contrary, you should have walked out at least two years ago.


> I'm about to pass the last exit ramp.... once I make my intentions known, she'll torch me to all of our friends and family).


Excuse me? Are you serious??? She's _already done that_ repeatedly over the past two years. The result is that you've already been abandoned by her friends and her family so intensely detests you that you are not even allowed to visit their home. Hence, instead of talking about all the exit ramps that you've passed, you should be thinking instead of _all the bridges she has burned_. If you simply turn around and take a look, you will see that all of them are still burning.


> This would be so much easier if she were disordered in her thinking ALL the time!


If she has most BPD traits at a strong level -- as you've described -- she is disordered nearly all the time. Significantly, a BPDer's perception of your intentions is distorted BOTH when she is splitting you black and when she is splitting you white too. That's the way black-white thinking works, as we've discussed before. Granted, there can be "moments of clarity" but they typically rarely occur and have zero impact on the marriage.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Uptown...

You have no idea how helpful your insight is at times like this. I've been living in an insane world so long, my perspective is very skewed.

I know a woman at work who recently divorced her abusive husband. She told me it's amazing what you can rationalize after you've lived with it for so long. She said she used to rationalize that "he only hits me when the kids aren't around....as long as the kids don't see it, it must not be all that bad..."

She said there's no way she would want her daughter to ever think like that when she gets married. But it's just the normalization of abnormal behavior.

So I guess I've lived with the smear campaigns for so long, they seem like my "new normal."

Thanks for the perspective! I'm going be making the list that "SlowyGettingWiser" suggested. Since I'm alone this weekend anyway, I might as well put the solitude to good use!


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Here's an update....

I still struggle with which decision is the right decision. I have rented an inexpensive sleeping room with some local college students, and a storage unit. I have rented a PO box. I will soon be opening a separate bank account.

In the last couple of months, things have tamed down a bit. She hasn't made any bizarre accusations. She hasn't blamed me for accidents that happen with our son. There have been times that she has actually stopped and listened to my point of view. I won't say that we've suddenly had moments of romance and touching or sex (or even "I love you") is still a distant memory, but the bad times aren't as numerous as they were this time last year. Now instead of a roommate that she hates, I've become the roommate that she grudgingly puts up with. And sometimes even appreciates, but not very often.

She says she's willing to try a different marriage counselor. My counselor says that maybe I should recommend that she seek counseling of her own, that we aren't ready to return to marriage counseling yet. I haven't broached that subject yet. My counselor believes she's probably "answer shopping," hoping to find a marriage counselor who agrees with her. And I was also warned that if we go to a marriage counselor who doesn't have experience working with personality disorders, then we could end up wasting a lot of time and money.

Part of me wonders if this is the beginning of a new awakening. The other part of me wonders is this is just a part of the cycle of verbal abuse, or the push-pull BPD cycle.

I jusst eem to always be walking on eggshells. I'm afraid to actually talk about the situation for fear of how badly things I say will get distorted. The last time I suggested she get a psychological evaluation, she went livid and asked me why in the world SHE would need an evaluation when ***I*** am the one with the problems.

I spent some time alone a few weekends ago and used the list that slowly_getting_wiser suggested. Here's what I came up with:

Best case scenario for staying....maybe we could be civil to each other, but I doubt that real trust or real intimacy would be achieved for a long, long time.

Worst case for me staying....she might be able to conjure up some story about me that somebody would believe and I would lose my freedom, my job, and my son. We would be showing my son a bad example of what a marriage looks like (much like my parents modeled a miserable marriage for me because they felt they had a duty to stay together "for the kids"). Since I had a bad model of marriage from my parents, I had no idea what to look for when I chose a mate, and as a result I ignored some very obvious red flags.

Best case scenario for me leaving....I could become emotionally healthy and be the best part-time Daddy I could be, and maybe help buffer my son from his mother's insanity.

Worst case scenario for me leaving....I would be giving up on a situation that while extremely difficult, might be salvageable. I would set a bad example for my son about giving up when times get tough. I would be forsaking my vows.

Where do I want to be in 5 years? Emotionally healthy, happy and have a good relationship with my son. I want to be employed in a career that stimulates my intellect. I love the field I work in now, so my hope is to be further into it and have more influence and responsibility than I do now, but to basically be doing the same thing.....it's nice to have a job you love! If possible, I want to be in a loving, nurturing relationship that has a very low level of drama.

My only problem....I don't know how to get there from here! This decision would be so much easier if she were still flaming me and throwing stones every chance she got. But now that she actually seems to be calming down a little, I wonder....did I imagine it all? Was it really as bad as I remember it? Is there hope for change, and am I being impulsive to think about ending things? Am I a bad person for wanting out when she seems to be trying a little?

.....sigh......


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

hurtnohio said:


> I want to be in a loving, nurturing relationship that has a very low level of drama. ...My only problem....I don't know how to get there from here!


When someone confuses you that much through their actions -- as your W has done -- they are NOT going to take time to clarify it all for you. Being in pain, you naturally want relief from it. The problem, of course, is that you keep going to the source of that pain -- i.e., to the relationship itself -- for easing. THAT WON'T HAPPEN if your W is a BPDer. I know because I tried it myself for 15 years. 

Eventually you will come to a place where you take responsibility for your pain and own it. Significantly, this doesn't mean you will relieve your partner of her wrongdoing. After all, _explaining_ her behavior does not _excuse_ it. Rather, it means that you will recognize that you are the one -- the ONLY one -- who can put a stop to your suffering. At that point, seeking answers and validation from that partner no longer is important because you've taken the power out of her hands and regained control of your own life.

As I said earlier, Hurt, it takes TWO willing partners to sustain a toxic marriage year after year. Hence, the toxicity is not something SHE is doing to you. Rather, it is something you BOTH are doing to each other. Although her role is easy to see, yours is not because -- as the "enabler" -- you are convinced you are "only trying to help." 

Yet, if your W has strong BPD traits, your continued efforts to protect her from suffering the logical consequences of her own childish behavior is harming you both. If she is to ever have an opportunity to grow up and confront her own issues, she must be allowed to suffer those logical consequences.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Uptown...I hope my posts over the last year aren't coming across as blaming her. I do have my own issues and I own them. I can be insensitive at times. When hurt, I tend to withdraw, which can seem at times to be withholding of affection. I get that. And those are things that can be worked on in a normal marriage.

What I'm struggling to find out is this: Is there a mortal wound in our marriage (due to BPD or whatever else) that makes it impossible for us to heal? Is the toxicity (which I completely own as being partly my fault) something that can be overcome, or does my wife truly have a personality disorder that makes long-term success unlikely?

Since she refuses to get evaluated - and since BPD often fails detection of some of the more standard tests - this is at best a moot point.

I just don't know. The whole thing is so bewildering.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hurtn,
The best thing to do here to try and rebalance the marriage is to move out, and file separation papers. Not divorce - but separation. Do it while she is away. And then more out - partially - to your new place. So you will be gone when she returns. Leave her a short note - VERY short. 

Wife,
I love you and want this to work. If you also want it to work you need to approach me in a calm, constrcutive manner. And you need to agree to attend MC counseling with me. IF you attend MC, do the evercies we get assigned and bring sexual intimacy back into the marriage, and completely stop with the toxic/hostile behavior, I would be open to returning. 

If instead you believe that I am the problem, and you don't want to attend MC together, we should part amicably by divorce. 

And then let her decide on a R or a big D. 



hurtnohio said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> Here's an update on my situation. The long and the short of it is that I've been in an emotionally and verbally abusive marriage for quite some time. The last 12 - 18 months have been the worst. I've been accused of some very bizarre things and when I wasn't under some kind of false accusation, I was being talked down to, scolded, been called names, etc. We tried counseling for a year until my wife refused to return. We sleep in separate rooms and have not had sex in over a year.
> 
> ...


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

hurtnohio said:


> Uptown...I hope my posts over the last year aren't coming across as blaming her. I do have my own issues and I own them.


Sorry, Hurt, I misspoke. What I've been trying to say for the past three months is that, like me, you have weak personal boundaries -- making it difficult for you to see where your issues stop and your wife's issues begin. I believe that, once you subtract away her huge issues, the remaining issues -- yours -- are far smaller than you believe. Namely, you've been playing the role of enabler because you are trapped in the marriage by a feeling of guilt. It is the unnecessary guilt, then, that I've been trying to help you with.

If your W has strong BPD traits and refuses to seek treatment on her own volition, forcing her into therapy by threatening D is unlikely to be productive -- as your MC told you. That is the path I took and it did not end well. I spent a small fortune sending my exW to six different psychologists for weekly visits for 15 years -- all to no avail.


> Is the toxicity (which I completely own as being partly my fault) something that can be overcome, or does my wife truly have a personality disorder that makes long-term success unlikely?


Nobody on this forum can tell you whether she has BPD. Only a professional can do that. And, as I've explained before, there is little chance a professional will tell her -- much less YOU -- the name of her disorder even if she has full-blown BPD. 

Hence, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion (not a formal diagnosis) is to see a clinical psychologist ON YOUR OWN for a visit or two. He may be willing to say "it sounds like your W has...." But, then, he may not be willing to do so. This is why I encourage all people married to abusive spouses to read about the BPD traits. 

Of course, you won't be able to do a diagnosis. But, for the purposes of deciding whether to remain married to her, it does not matter whether her BPD traits meet the diagnostic threshold for "having BPD." Even when they are well below that threshold, they can make your life miserable, damage your son, and destroy a marriage. 

Moreover, the red flags are easy to spot. There is nothing subtle about behavioral traits such as verbal abuse, temper tantrums, inability to trust, blaming you for every misfortune, black-white thinking, and rapid Jekyll-Hyde transformations. That's why I encouraged you to read _Stop Walking on Eggshells, _which you have already read.

Significantly, both your attorney and counselor have already encouraged you to leave her as soon as possible. If you want further support for that decision, I suggest you see a clinical psychologist as I described. In selecting one, keep in mind that skill sets among psychologists -- as with members of any profession -- vary greatly. It therefore would be helpful to obtain a reference from a trusted doctor or by calling the psych department of a local hospital or university -- or looking at online recommendations.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

> Sorry, Hurt, I misspoke. What I've been trying to say for the past three months is that, like me, you have weak personal boundaries -- making it difficult for you to see where your issues stop and your wife's issues begin.


Yes, I do have weak boundaries. I had this problem in the past with other relationships and even some work issues. Fortunately, I've learned where the boundaries are in the other relationships (co-workers, etc) and am actually being recognized at work as a pro-active and influential team member. That's something that would not have happened 10 years ago, as I was even afraid to enforce boundaries at work. I think if nothing else, living through this madness with my wife has made me a stronger person. Stronger in all ways, except with her. There's an area where I still struggle. Maybe because divorce (or even separation, which to someone with abandonment issues is going to feel like the same thing) is such a big step.



> I believe that, once you subtract away her huge issues, the remaining issues -- yours -- are far smaller than you believe.


My counselor made the same comment. I was blaming myself for occasionally raising my voice and speaking in an animated way when I get frustrated (I've never yelled, but I talk faster and slightly louder when I'm perturbed). The counselor told me it was impossible for someone to live in a pressure cooker for years and not occasionally get angry.

I guess I've internalized my wife's messages to me about myself all these years. People at work actually laugh when I apologize for getting angry at work....they say that my version of a temper tantrum is setting my coffee cup down on my desk firmly (without breaking it!). So when I later apologize for my "anger," they usually ask "what anger?" 

And I will state it again in case anyone didn't catch it before: I swear that I have never laid a hand on either my son or my wife in anger. And no, I've never bugged my phones, either.

But here's the confusing part. When I call my wife's attention to some of her outrageous behavior, she'll sometimes apologize. (Other times, she'll belittle me and tell me I must be tired because I'm making stuff up..which makes me wonder if she was dissociating about those times). When I swore to her that I didn't bug the phones, she told me she believed me (of course, she also told our family doctor that I was going crazy because she suspected I had bugged the phones...but I don't know if that was before or after I told her I hadn't).

So the behavior is VERY confusing. It's like I'm being given two messages.....she hates me, can't trust me, and says I deserve to be talked down to like a child, OR she's sorry she over-reacted, she wants to see things from my point of view, and she wants to make sure my son has lots of time with Daddy. 

And maybe that's the most abusive part of this whole mess. A year ago this time, she was threatening to take him and run away with him where I could never find them. Now, she's going out of her way to make sure he spends as much time with me as possible (my job requires me to travel a lot, which is a blessing right now...it keeps me out of the line of fire). So last year, I was grieving for my marriage and wanting to make it work. Now that I've mentally and emotionally given up, she seems to be wanting to improve things. I'm just afraid if I open up to the possibility that things might get better, she'll go the other way again. And to me, that is the ultimate in abuse. I don't think she's doing this intentionally, but it almost seems as if she's always trying to do just the opposite of what I'm wanting. As if she's trying to keep me off-balance.

And the sad thing is, I've been down this road before. Almost 6 years ago, I was seriously considering leaving her over this same type of stuff (although it wasn't nearly this severe). Then things got better for almost a year. Markedly better. Almost as good as when we were newlyweds kind of better (this was one of the times she was taking Cymbalta, so I wonder if the effects of the Cymbalta on her mood might have been part of the improvement). Then we learned she was pregnant, and we were excited planning for the baby. His first 6 months with us, we were really, really happy. But somewhere, the old problems kept creeping back in until they reached their nadir last year.



> Nobody on this forum can tell you whether she has BPD. Only a professional can do that. And, as I've explained before, there is little chance a professional will tell her -- much less YOU -- the name of her disorder even if she has full-blown BPD.


And that presents a conundrum. The counselor told me to never tell her I suspect BPD. OK, but I am supposed to tell her I think she could benefit from some IC. The counselor suggested that I say it's to help her "learn to deal with me" or something like that.

It's so disheartening in a way that if I do leave her, I can't even tell her the real reason why!



> Significantly, both your attorney and counselor have already encouraged you to leave her as soon as possible. If you want further support for that decision, I suggest you see a clinical psychologist as I described. In selecting one, keep in mind that skill sets among psychologists -- as with members of any profession -- vary greatly. It therefore would be helpful to obtain a reference from a trusted doctor or by calling the psych department of a local hospital or university -- or looking at online recommendations.


That's a good idea. I might just have to do that.

I'm fortunate in that one of my college roommates way back when was a psychology major. He's a doctor of psychology now, and we've stayed in touch over the years. He says that everything I've described sounds like BPD to him, and he's strongly encouraging me to leave. While his "diagnosis" is informal and he's very careful to make sure I know that it's not an official diagnosis and that ethically he's too emotionally close to me to ever be my "real" counselor....but even with all those caveats, he's telling me in no uncertain terms that I need to leave.

Here's the bottom line of my current struggle: If she were still raging at me every night, and engaging in the character assassination and all the other stuff that was so common this past year, I'd be out the door. But since things have calmed down a little bit and she seems to be trying, I'm having second thoughts.

My psychologist friend made an important point to me: Sick people can sometimes pull it together for a while and act healthy. But healthy people won't go off the deep end and act as sick as she has acted over the last two years. He says he thinks she's somehow managed to pull herself together in the short term because she's sensing I'm thinking about leaving and she wants to reel me back in. 

Why do I have such a hard time seeing the pathology living right under my nose for what it is? Sometimes I think ****I'm*** the crazy one here!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

hurtnohio said:


> So the behavior is VERY confusing.


Yes, living with an unstable spouse is very confusing. As I mentioned before, this is why -- of the several dozen mental disorders listed in the diagnostic manual -- BPD is the only one that is notorious for making a large share of the partners and spouses feel like they are going crazy.


> It's like I'm being given two messages.....she hates me, can't trust me, and says I deserve to be talked down to like a child, OR she's sorry she over-reacted, she wants to see things from my point of view, and she wants to make sure my son has lots of time with Daddy.


Yes, that's why the #2 best-selling BPD book (targeted to the spouses) is called _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!_ Like bipolar sufferers, BPDers alternate back and forth between two extreme poles -- but on a very different spectrum. Whereas bipolar sufferers swing between mania and depression, BPDers flip back and forth between adoration (loving you) and devaluation (hating you). This BPDer behavior -- called black-white thinking -- arises from a BPDer's intolerance of ambiguities and uncertainties.


> It's so disheartening in a way that if I do leave her, I can't even tell her the real reason why!


Yes, it is disheartening. Yet, if she is a BPDer, she will unconsciously project the accusation right back onto you -- with the result that she will be convinced you are the BPDer. Knowing that, I nonetheless told my exW because I did not want to leave any stone left unturned. That was four years ago -- and she still believes I am the one who is a BPDer.


> He's a doctor of psychology now, and we've stayed in touch over the years. He says that everything I've described sounds like BPD to him, and he's strongly encouraging me to leave.


Hurt, a professional opinion on high functioning BPD doesn't get much better than that. Like I discussed, there is virtually no chance of obtaining an official diagnosis because almost any therapist seeing her will be loath to tell her the name of the disorder. Your best chance of obtaining a candid professional "opinion," then, is to do exactly what you did -- see a psychologist on your own and describe the behavior you've seen. Of course, there is no harm in obtaining a second professional opinion if you want more reassurance.


> Here's the bottom line of my current struggle: ...since things have calmed down a little bit and she seems to be trying, I'm having second thoughts [about leaving her].


For excessive caregivers like us, there is virtually no chance of our walking away from a sick loved one unless we are _very angry_. I therefore suspect you will just have to bide your time until she cycles from splitting you white to splitting you black again. 

When that happens, hold onto your anger. Remember that, when trying to break free from a toxic marriage, RIGHTEOUS ANGER IS YOUR FRIEND. Use it as a crutch to walk away to safety and then -- a year later when you are safely out of the relationship -- toss that crutch aside.


> Sometimes I think ****I'm*** the crazy one here!


Like I said in your thread last July, people with strong BPD traits usually have that effect on their spouses -- an effect that is called "gaslighting." It is named after the 1944 classic movie _Gaslight_, in which a husband (Charles Boyer) tries to drive his new bride (Ingrid Bergman) crazy so as to have her institutionalized, allowing him to run off with her family jewels. Usually, however, the BPDers are not actually trying to "drive you crazy" but, rather, are simply reacting to their distorted perceptions of your intentions.


> Why do I have such a hard time seeing the pathology living right under my nose for what it is?


You DON'T have a hard time seeing it, as far as I can tell. I believe you already had a good understanding of it when we discussed it last July. Understanding it at the intellectual, adult level, however, is the _easy part_. 

What is HARD is convincing your intuitive inner child that your new-found knowledge is actually true. Until you feel is to be true at a gut level -- i.e., until you've converted knowledge into wisdom -- you will be reluctant to act on that knowledge. 

Don't be surprised, then, that your "inner child" has been lagging many months behind your "adult logic." Because the intuitive child learns primarily from intense feelings, that part of you will make another big step forward the next time she breaks your heart. Hopefully, it will only take one more love-hate cycle to close that gap between your logical adult and intuitive child.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I wish I knew you in real life hurt. I feel for your situation so much because I can see so much of me in your wife. Like others have said, even if she isn't BPD, there is something seriously wrong with her behavior. 

If she is BPD, she will soon find something wrong with you again.....the calm you are experiencing now, it won't last. It is a pattern that will keep repeating to infinity. 

If you were someone I personally knew, I would tell you to run. You are doing yourself and your son a huge disservice by letting this sort of thing continue. Your son will pick up on his mother's behaviors. 

I truly wish you the best of luck. My heart breaks for you because I know how horrific it is to live with someone like that. I did it to my H for so many years. He has a very hard time believing in my ability to be better due to the fact that for at least 10yrs I was super, batsh!t crazy b*tch. 

Please, take care of yourself and your son.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

pidge70 said:


> I wish I knew you in real life hurt. I feel for your situation so much because I can see so much of me in your wife. Like others have said, even if she isn't BPD, there is something seriously wrong with her behavior.
> 
> If she is BPD, she will soon find something wrong with you again.....the calm you are experiencing now, it won't last. It is a pattern that will keep repeating to infinity.
> 
> ...


If I see any of the more bizarre behaviors again, I'm outta there. The big question in my mindis this: do I proactively leave NOW, or do I wait until the next explosion and take that as confirmation that this is a continuation of the pattern?

My sense of obligation makes me feel the need to stay. My sense of being tired of waiting for the other shoe to drop makes me want to leave now. I was serious about my vows when I took them. I know it could be wrgued that she broke the relationship with me first, but I feel an obligation not to give up unless that is truly the last option.

On the other hand, if she engages in a future smear campaign and gets me arrested, I could lose everything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I had numerous times where I was "normal", they never lasted. My H stayed and tolerated because as he stated, he knew the "real" me was still there. The saddest thing he as ever said to me was that he would have stayed with me forever being unhappy. Is that the life you want for yourself?


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

pidge70 said:


> I had numerous times where I was "normal", they never lasted. My H stayed and tolerated because as he stated, he knew the "real" me was still there. The saddest thing he as ever said to me was that he would have stayed with me forever being unhappy. Is that the life you want for yourself?


No it's not. But I have a lot of respect for your husband. He's a better husband than me if he's willing to endure all this To be with you. I used to think I was that committed, but that was before she attacked the very foundation of trust that I thought was inviolable. He's a better man than I am.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

hurtnohio said:


> I have a lot of respect for your husband. He's a better husband than me if he's willing to endure all this To be with you.


Yes, he is a special guy, Hurt. But Pidge is being modest. What she hasn't said here is that she has worked hard in therapy for years to learn how to manage her issues. 

We are able to meet amazing people like Pidge through the miracle of the Internet. Self aware BPDers like her are uncommon. And, even when you find one, it is rarer still to find a self-aware BPDer who also has the ego strength to stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. Although I've communicated with nearly a hundred "self awares" at BPD websites, I've never knowingly met such a person in my private life.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Not wanting to live your life as is does NOT make you a bad man. A person can only endure so much. When I was diagnosed I just blew it off. My psych never addressed it with me, instead I was put on numerous meds. Medication does not help people like me, not entirely. 

I assume you haven't read my first thread. I ruined his trust in me in the most heinous way. I hit rock bottom and finally realized what I was doing. I almost destroyed him. Our youngest daughter was privy to many things she should not have been. She had a breakdown at 10. She was in a pediatric psych ward for 5 days. Her psych stated he saw BPD traits in her before he even knew I was a BPD'er. This is why I am so adamant that you think of your son. Children of BPD'ers are at great risk of having it themselves. Granted we don't know if your wife is BPD or not, still, her behavior is very unhealthy for your young son to see.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

I guess I originally thought I would stay and endure for my young son. But after thinking more about it, I realized my son might be better off watching NO marriage as opposed to a chaotic one.

During the weekend I went to the cemetery to do some thinking (using the list of questions that SlowlyGettingWiser suggested), a powerful insight came over me. It was so powerful that I had to bend over and grab a headstone to steady myself, because I was feeling woozy.

I've suspected for a long time that my own mother has BPD. In fact, the similarities between some of her pathological behavior and my wife's is so unnerving that a few times I've found myself saying "Mom..." to my wife instead of "Honey..." (this was back when she still allowed me to use pet names with her). 

Here's the insight that literally took my breath away....I ended up in a bad marriage because I saw such a bad example set for me. My dad stayed with my mom out of obligation (and because his religious beliefs forbade divorce), and all I ever saw was misery. I guess I got used to seeing a less-than-ideal marriage as the norm. So when I was in a serious dating relationship myself, I ignored what should have been a LOT of red flags. This was partially because of the poor example I saw from my parents, and partially because during the "idealization" phase, it was hard for me to imagine this woman ever hating me as much as I've seen in the last 12 to 24 months. I didn't recognize the "good" side of BPD for what it was. But even during the weird arguments that seemed to come out of nowhere, I ignored those red flags because I hadn't seen anything good modeled for me at home.

And I'll be damned if I model that for my son. 

The cycle must end here.

So here's another dilemma....right now, she's a great mom. I feat that this may be because she "idealizes" our son, because we waited so long to be blessed with a child. But some day, I fear she may start splitting him black when he starts asserting his own independence, as all children will. (She's already starting to complain that he has a "strong will." But he's a great kid. Yes, he does test the limits. What child doesn't?)

Right now, I'd be willing to let her have full custody as long as she lets me have normal, unsupervised visitation. I've talked it over with my lawyer, and she says that's the most likely thing to be able to get approved if we go the divorce route. However, I did ask her what we could do if I ever felt he was being emotionally abused. And the lawyer said we could fight for me to get custody if and when we had enough evidence of said abuse.

On the other hand, I've had one friend recommend I try for full custody based on the behavior I've observed. My lawyer thinks that's not a winning strategy. But I do need to think about my son's well-being as well.

I guess I'm thinking that if I do leave, I will work hard to stay as engaged as possible. I will let him talk to me about anything he wants to. I will never invalidate him. And I will watch like a hawk to see if she's becoming abusive toward him. I will try to stay outside the chaos and validate him in any way possible, and to try to counteract the nuttiness he may see in the future.

Is this a plan that can work? Is it too much to hope that I could be a positive influence on him if I'm only with him two weekends a month and every Thursday night?


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## cosmicblu (Oct 18, 2011)

HURT, I understand where you are exactly all too well. Im at that jumping off cliff myself and have been for quite a while. Eggshells, honeymoon periods, emotional abuse, mine sadly over the last few years has resorted to physical. The last honeymoon period for us was jan. 2011 to this past march, so a good almost year and a half, and was just like what any honeymoon period is like, it was good! a few blowups, but nothing serious by any means. But in march he ended up choking me, twice actually. stopped for a min. then went back at it. But like you, every way to rationalize staying all these years, positives & negatives, always leaving me stuck. Hes facing mandatory 3 yrs and his court date is in a week. the DA wanted to see on that date reciepts and letters from taking his meds (wellbutrin-sp?) and therapy which he has been doing. BUT there was a jealous flare up the other week and he resorted back in his hotheadedness at the time saying things like 'you wouldnt have got hit half those times if you just kept your damn mouth shut' and minimizing the choking incident like it wouldnt have been a big deal if I had passed out, 'people pass out all the time'...seriously?? And just other dumb things. Then said something like 'you know how I talk when im worked up' like he didnt mean all of those things. But he doesnt fully understand I dont think just how badly those things he said undid all the progress we had made in that short month and a half since the last incident and now Im realizing theres a good chance I may have made a mistake...again... Always feeling hopeful in those good times, then short of leaving the bad times wondering 'am I giving up too quickly???" That question has been killlling me... Only recently now since he has been in therapy consistently and it was so recent, is it just a slip up since it is early in treatment? would it still be perfectly reasonable to leave after those signs now? Certainly no one could blame me for not wanting to take the chance after the severity of the last incident right? Im curious as to what you think of my situation, considering the recent therapy(glimmer of hope) especially, but also your not alone at the edge of this cliff, as Im sure you already know, but maybe in some crazy twisted way we can give each other some needed insight to this all to familiar stalemate position of ours?


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## luckycardinal (Feb 7, 2012)

Hurtnohio...I know it's SO SO tough to leave an abusive relationship. I am going through that with my husband and have been married to him for 10 years. He has been abusive pretty much from the start. I echo the other posts above...it's so hard to leave these people for a few reasons, a couple of which are: 

1. Abusive people target "nice" people who really don't like to fight dirty, who want everything to work out for the best and who generally just want to get along with people. We "nice" folks find it hard to get angry with the abuser and to stop caring about what happens to him/her and do what we need to do for us, even when what they're doing is very detrimental to us. 

2. They give us "intermittent rewards" which are much more effective than being mean all the time or being nice all the time. When they're super a-holes most of the time, but then super nice, sweet, perfect spouses a small amount of the time, it causes confusion. I always remember his kind acts when I think of leaving and I feel bad that he has no job or way to care for himself, even though it's his own fault he can't keep a job.

I have also prayed to God that I'd die before, but I have since stopped hating myself and have started loving myself, giving myself mercy and comfort and wanting to LIVE for me and my kids, who need me. Your son needs you, too. Do what you have to do for YOU.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

hurtnohio:

1.) I am GLAD you're getting out of your marriage NOW. The sooner the better for both YOU and your son.

2.) Make sure your attorney is FULLY ADVISED of your wife's problems, then listen to your attorney's advice. You can always CHANGE your custody request in the future (divorce will take you quite a while). The most important single thing you can do for your son RIGHT NOW is to get yourself well. Stick with your IC; strive hard to be a strong, healthy man; stay active in your son's life. As time for the actual divorce draws nearer, YOU will have a better grasp on the situation with your son. You (and your attorney and your IC therapist) will be better able to determine if your wife can parent your son in a healthy manner, or if YOU would be the more fit parent short- or long-term.

Stay strong, get healthy (mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually) for your self and FOR YOUR SON. We're here for you hurtnohio!!!

I am excited for your new healthy beginning for you and your son. You need to GET EXCITED, too!


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