# Need some advice



## Seoman1 (Dec 20, 2017)

My primary question is this: at what point do I admit that marriage counseling is not working and it is time to possibly consider divorce? Divorce is NOT what I want to do, but my wife puts forth almost zero effort into making our marriage work anymore.

Some background -- we have been together for 6.5 years, married for four. Our daughter was born about 2.5 years ago. She moved with me back to near where I grew up in Indiana in 2012 after I graduated from law school. Prior to that, we lived together in Michigan near where her family lives to this day. I got a job here in the area in Indiana after I graduated and passed the bar where I have been working now since 2012. I am on pace to become a partner in the firm I work at beginning this coming year which would see a significant increase in my pay. I would be making more than do I now. She recently got her degree in elementary education last year after bouncing around from college to college and makes significantly less than I do now. 

There are three problems that have plagued our relationship, with the two most serious only coming out within the last couple of years. First, she has always been horrible with finances. For this reason, we have separate accounts. I pay primarily every single bill we have out of my account where my paychecks go. She gets to keep her own account and doesn't pay any bills except she is supposed to get groceries for us each week (doesn't happen). Without fail, she spends every single dime of her paycheck within a few days of getting paid and then asks me for money afterwards. This is about $800 - $900 we are talking about -- gone in a matter of no more than a week. She then asks me for more money. Most of this is spent on her going on a shopping spree. I have even had to pay for fees before because she will spend her account down under zero. I realize having separate accounts is not ideal, but I am afraid of giving her access to the account where our bills are paid out of.

Second, and is one of the more serious problems, is that she has a serious issue with the relationship I have with both my parents and my sister. We are a tight-knit family who enjoy spending a lot of time around each other. I am especially close to my dad, who for years I have enjoyed hunting and gaming with. My wife, while through the first 4-5 years of our relationship was fine with this, has in the last couple began to view this as me "choosing them over her." This is essentially about once a week that I go over to my parents to hang out with my dad to hunt or game. I don't see this as unreasonable at all, considering that I am not the type of guy to go out and booze with the guys or anything like that. Literally 95% of my time is generally spent at home.

Last, and probably the biggest issue, is that shortly after our daughter was born, my wife got it in her head that where we were living at was just no longer feasible for her happiness. She says the people here are close-minded and religious nuts who she can't talk to and they hate her. She is a liberal person while where we live is very conservative. I myself am conservative but my wife's political views have never bothered me. She has said that in order for our family to be happy and our marriage to work we have to move to a different city and that while what she wants is to move to a completely different state, she is willing to "compromise" and move about 30-45 minutes away to a more liberal area and I can commute to my job. I work in the town we live in now. It is a small community where everyone knows each other. My boss has told me, especially with me becoming partner, that living here is part of the deal. He even told me this, to which I had told it to my wife, back when he hired me in 2012. My wife's response was initially I should just look for a new job. She has backed off of this recently, instead sticking to her "compromise" as a solution. Personally, I don't think moving is a solution. My wife has had depression since we began dating and takes a number of medications. I don't think she will be any better anywhere else. But if I bring this up, I am "controlling" and "always have to have my way."

These issues got so bad last year in 2016 that we began going to marriage counseling. We have now been going to marriage counseling for approximately 1.5 years. I have tried to change a lot of what I do, especially when it comes to interaction with my mom and dad. This has led to some hurt feelings on their part, but I have taken the position that if it makes my marriage work it is worth it. My wife on the other hand, has done almost nothing. She has not tried almost any of the suggestions of the marriage counselor, and has continually insisted that if we are going to stay together we have to move -- ignoring the damage financially this would do to our family as well as to my career in the short run. 

I know I have written a lot. There is a lot more that I could write. At this point, is marriage counseling really worth continuing. Our counselor seems to think so. Even though I think she is good at what she does, I wonder if she just doesn't want to admit that we are hopeless and wants to continue to work on it for her own sake. She certainly is not cheap. I have dropped around $7000 in counseling now going back to when it began. At times I feel my wife is completely selfish and the counseling is worthless. Other times I feel like I will stay in it as long as I can just to try to say I did everything to save my marriage.

Any advice?


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Man, you have only one life to live, why waste it living miserably? Grow a pair and make the decision now, before it gets a whole lot more expensive to you down the line. You're a lawyer, you should know. Just do what needs to be done to make sure you have equal access to your child.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

It partly depends on whether you can leave you child and drop a bombshell in its life. I could never walk away and leave my own child no matter what.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

does your wife work? 
She is definitely irresponsible with money, that in itself can be very damaging to relationships, but beyond that her needs to seek happiness in buying things and moving to where she will be happy is very concerning. and am not sure she gets it...and after over a year of counseling she still feels this way i am not sure you have any more approaches to take. i think you do need to examine separation, i think she need to see what life will be like on her own. maybe that will wake her up maybe not.


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

I would get out of this marriage since it sounds like it is very one sided!!!

I was married 12 years and although my X was not particularly bad with Finances she never contributed and spent all 'her' money on her and then started spending 'our' money. Put your foot down, tell her you are not moving, tell her you are no longer supplementing her income, tell her what she needs to buy on pay day for the family before she spends a penny and tell her if that does not work for her then you are more than happy to divorce.

I also moved at the insistence of my XW to Another COUNTRY entirely and she was just as miserable as before if not more since we had to start from scratch again and I went from happy to miserable as I didn't have my friends or family around anymore and became trapped and isolated and just had her, marriage ended in Divorce anyway she took everything for granted and eventually no matter what I did she was still miserable and apparently it was all my fault. 

7 Months on, I am happy, kids mostly happy and life goes on after Divorce.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Honestly, is she hot? Does she love having sex with you and please you? What exactly are you getting out of this relationship? I can see what's she is getting out it. 

You sound miserable, just like I was. I choose divorce and haven't regretted it one bit, even though it's costing me $$$ every month. I waited until youngest was 5 and in school full time. If you have time, start stashing cash and plan your escape. If you are still getting your basic needs (sexual) met, then don't rush. If you aren't, get some side action and plan a quick escape. One life. Don't waste it. We are all replaceable.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Here’s my advice:

1. Ditch the counselor. Counseling should have an end goal with some kind of end in sight. 18 months of counseling and you’re still this miserable? More counseling won’t fix this.

2. The primary breadwinner gets the major say in where the family lives. Exercise your right to make that call. She wants to move 45 minutes away? Fine, when SHE finds a job that pays what yours currently pays, you’ll consider moving.

3. No more bailing her out on the grocery money. When it’s gone it’s gone. A few weekends of nothing to eat in the House should solve that problem. Take your child out to eat if necessary (just the two of you, wife can stay home and eat Ramen noodles) and keep some granola bars stashed for emergencies. I can’t imagine any normal mother who would allow their child to be deprived of nutritious meals due to their own lack of restraint and selfish spending, but there’s gotta be some tough love if you want to end this irresponsible behavior. 

4. Get her in to a medical doctor for evaluation and medication for her depression. Talk therapy isn’t going to fix this as you’ve already discovered.

Set a reasonable timeframe that you are willing to wait to see noticeable improvements. If after 3 months nothing has changed, file for divorce.


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## Edo Edo (Feb 21, 2017)

To succinctly address your three points:

1. Never share finances with her. Your accounts will dwindle down to nothing. Also, if this ends in divorce, you will have an easier time if your accounts are only in your name.

2. Without knowing more detail behind the arguments, there might be a glimmer of validity to this, but only a glimmer. My guess is that she feels somewhat isolated now that she moved closer to your area. Also, if she is liberal, she might not like the idea of you hunting animals. Maybe she thought this was a behavior you'd grow out of.

3. Sorry, but I have to side with the wife on this one. I lived in Indiana for 6 years. For the most part, the people are VERY NICE, but only if you are Christian, Conservative, White, Republican or a Basketball player. If an individual does not fall into at least 3 of those five qualities at all times, people will see you part of the problem with this country and either verbally attack you or treat you like a complete outcast. 

Bottom line, it seems like you, as a couple, were compatible in Michigan but not in Indiana. Is there any likelihood that you could move back to MI and still visit with your family? How far is your law practice from the MI border?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Maybe you should wake up and 
take a good look at why you're staying in this?

It's all bout her. What do you want?


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## Magnesium (Jun 19, 2017)

Long term, I don't know what to tell you. Sounds to me like your wife is a spoiled brat with zero impulse control and I would hate to be married to that nonsense.

Immediately, however:

Stop giving her money when she runs out. Go get groceries yourself. Don't even talk about it...do not argue or complain. When she asks for money, the only answer you need give is "no." Repeat it as many times as is necessary. Do not ever give her access or responsibility where your money is concerned.

Quit entertaining the "compromise". Shut that mess down every time it is brought up. "That's not going to happen. I won't be moving." Again, repeat as often as necessary.

See your parents as much as you want. If they don't already know what's really going on, you may want to tell them. You're going to need some support when your wife starts tripping because you're no longer falling in line or you choose to divorce.

Quit marriage counseling. At your next session, tell wife and counselor that you will no longer continue the sessions as a couple since wife is not actually making any effort. DO, however, tell them both (and follow through) that you will be seeing an individual counselor instead. That should get your wife's attention. Do NOT waiver.

So many problems I read about here could be solved with a bit of spine polish. Stand up for yourself. Establish and maintain your boundaries. Let the chips fall where they may.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Seoman1 said:


> Other times I feel like I will stay in it as long as I can just to try to say I did everything to save my marriage.
> 
> Any advice?


Let's say that in 20 years, you're able to say "I did everything to save my marriage." What does that get you? Other people won't be impressed and your wife will despise you as much then as she would if you divorce sooner. Your wife seems a bit too demanding and doesn't sound like a very happy person.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

You're done man........get out. Too many issues!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

A man is born with two arms and two legs.
With these he can do most anything.

She has two arms and one leg.
You are her crutch.

With her one leg. When you are holding her up to keep her from falling....
You lovingly use both arms.

Her? She is busy picking your pockets.
And reaching in and squeezing your balls.

Step away.
She will find her missing leg. It is not a phantom limb.
Not missing, only missing in action.
She never had to use it.

She suffers from depression...
Eats snowflakes for breakfast.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Listen,

Your a smart guy. Law degree 

Your parents raised you right. You like spending time with them once a week is not unreasonable.

You pay all the bills and she spends all the money she earns shopping. Now she want you to alianate yourself from the good parents that raised you right.

What would your parents advise you to do?

What would you advise your son to do if this was happening to him?

What would your law partners advise you to do?


Come on pull your head out of your ass wipe the **** out of your eyes and see the woman for who she is.

Cut your losses. File for divorce.


Make it your new years resolution to get your ducks in a row and then file!

Sorry to be blunt but you know its the right thing to do.

You will still be able to be a good father . As a matter of fact you will be able to be a great father with out her mucking everything you do up.

Your a lawyer for crying out loud! You have a leg up on her already!

Good luck


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## Seoman1 (Dec 20, 2017)

Thanks for the replies. To answer some of the questions -- yes my wife does work. She teaches elementary school but barely makes any meaningful salary. Plus, none of her income is ever used on any bills outside of groceries (and this is hit or miss in a given week -- we have many weeks where the fridge is completely barren of sustenance). I have tried to get her to at least set aside some of her paycheck and begin saving some money to no avail. I have sat down with her and gone through all of the monthly expenses to explain to her that she is making it difficult to save serious money on my end when she is such a black hole financially with her spending. It doesn't make a difference. And our sex life, while still active, has slowed up tremendously. She also is clearly not very engaged when we are in bed either, which obviously takes away from a lot of pleasure even when we do have it.

One person had mentioned that the fact we live in Indiana makes her moving gripe at least somewhat legitimate. I don't agree. One piece I did not mention in my original post is that we bought the house we currently live in now because my wife pressed me so hard to move from where we lived before this because she hated the apartment we lived in. Granted, where we lived before was not far from here, and the apartment was cheap and not very nice (we had no money when I passed the bar as I hadn't started working and she was still in school) but even when we lived in Michigan she was not happy in her hometown and always told me she wanted to leave. It has led me to the conclusion that even if I gave into her demand to move that she still would not be happy -- and then I would be unhappy with wherever the hell we ended up. I think that if she had qualms about living where we do, she should have brought that to my attention before we purchased a home in the town I work in.

A lot of this advice is pretty blunt, but I appreciate that. It isn't easy just to give up. I think I will probably follow through on some of the suggestions here to firm up on my position and see how she responds. My guess will be it will be an overwhelmingly negative response. That in itself may be the deciding factor on how I have to proceed. And yes, I hate the fact that our daughter stands to suffer as a result of a divorce if it comes to that. I am just not sure what else can be done when counseling has been so ineffective.

Thanks, everyone.


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## Magnesium (Jun 19, 2017)

Seoman1 said:


> Thanks for the replies. To answer some of the questions -- yes my wife does work. She teaches elementary school but barely makes any meaningful salary. Plus, none of her income is ever used on any bills outside of groceries (and this is hit or miss in a given week -- we have many weeks where the fridge is completely barren of sustenance). I have tried to get her to at least set aside some of her paycheck and begin saving some money to no avail. I have sat down with her and gone through all of the monthly expenses to explain to her that she is making it difficult to save serious money on my end when she is such a black hole financially with her spending. It doesn't make a difference. And our sex life, while still active, has slowed up tremendously. She also is clearly not very engaged when we are in bed either, which obviously takes away from a lot of pleasure even when we do have it.
> 
> One person had mentioned that the fact we live in Indiana makes her moving gripe at least somewhat legitimate. I don't agree. One piece I did not mention in my original post is that we bought the house we currently live in now because my wife pressed me so hard to move from where we lived before this because she hated the apartment we lived in. Granted, where we lived before was not far from here, and the apartment was cheap and not very nice (we had no money when I passed the bar as I hadn't started working and she was still in school) but even when we lived in Michigan she was not happy in her hometown and always told me she wanted to leave. It has led me to the conclusion that even if I gave into her demand to move that she still would not be happy -- and then I would be unhappy with wherever the hell we ended up. I think that if she had qualms about living where we do, she should have brought that to my attention before we purchased a home in the town I work in.
> 
> ...


Your daughter stands to suffer if you do not divorce. Her mother is selfish and is making her own wants a priority over the family's and the marriage's needs. How many ways do you think that will play out over years and years? Your wife sounds like those types who are never satisfied no matter what you give them. Not a way to live, man. Not at all.

The younger your child is when you divorce, the better for the child. Keep that in mind. Also, keep in mind that if you stay married long enough and continue to put up with this crap while supplying her with a lifestyle she cannot afford on her own and to which she does not contribute, alimony comes into play.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Ok, if it hasn't been said yet, I think you should seek some counseling to help you process all of this and to get some in-person structure.

There's always 2 sides to each story. Your W has her side. It may or may not be rooted in any reality, but nevertheless she has her own view of all of this. I think you need to try to figure that out, which will involve some skilled and gentle probing. Does she feel inferior being just a school teacher when you're a lawyer? Does she feel entitled to full use of family income without accountability, and if so, where does that come from? Does she view marriage and family as primarily the husband working hard for money and the wife having a leisurely existence? Does she resent you for something, so it is justified when she spends beyond her share? Are her parents really bad with money management?

Chronic unhappiness indicates she has a defective map of something. Marriage, finances, family, career, community, etc. You can verbally berate her or you can lecture her about finances, but it won't do any good if her basic belief system is screwed up. She will filter everything by that internal map. You need to re-educate her before she'll be on board. Financial classes like Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace work well because it educates from the ground up, but only if she is receptive to the issue in the first place. If she resents you and thus sees money as her payback, she's not going to see how it is smart to save for the future! Same with her unhappiness with where you live and with the time you spend with your family. If she is a princess who should be doted on, you'll not convince her it is ok to spend time with your family.

I think you need to try to elicit explanations from her which are a bit deeper about her unhappiness. There is no reason you can't spend time each week with your family, but .. there needs to be balance. She may not feel there is a balance there. Asking open questions and letting her talk is the way to understand her side. Don't correct her, don't defend yourself. Be like a reporter who asks a series of questions and then lets the person talk until they're done. For me, a counselor was a huge help in learning how to do this effectively.

You may end up deciding she is just not a match for you. It is whatever it is. But I think you can get to a better stage of understanding your situation before making a decision to D.


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## Seoman1 (Dec 20, 2017)

Thor said:


> Ok, if it hasn't been said yet, I think you should seek some counseling to help you process all of this and to get some in-person structure.
> 
> There's always 2 sides to each story. Your W has her side. It may or may not be rooted in any reality, but nevertheless she has her own view of all of this. I think you need to try to figure that out, which will involve some skilled and gentle probing. Does she feel inferior being just a school teacher when you're a lawyer? Does she feel entitled to full use of family income without accountability, and if so, where does that come from? Does she view marriage and family as primarily the husband working hard for money and the wife having a leisurely existence? Does she resent you for something, so it is justified when she spends beyond her share? Are her parents really bad with money management?
> 
> ...


I appreciate the response, Thor. I guess I feel like I have tried to understand her thought process for years at this point and have gotten nowhere with it. Whether it is in regards to her obvious jealousy of my relationship with my parents, or her spontaneous demand to move from where we do now. She did not have a bad childhood, but had a number of incidents when she was in her teens where she did not get along at all with her parents or her sister. She went to live with her grandmother after this. While she gets along well enough with her family now, I think this has left a scar between her and her folks. I think this is partly why she acts the way she does. She didn't want to listen to her parents in her teen years and went to live with a different relative who would give her whatever she wanted. This has carried over to our marriage, where she is trying to push a "her way or the highway" type agenda on our family at this point. I know that if I give in to her silly demand to move she will just be unhappy again within a year max for some other reason. Probably that we are too close to my family still or some nonsense like that.

One question I did have and a few people have suggested it -- what is the real value of an individual counselor? I feel pretty grounded and like I can handle myself without the need to talk about it. I have already thrown away thousands of dollars on a marriage counselor and am kind of ready to not see a few hundred bucks per month simply going out the window on individual counseling. Does it really make a positive impact?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

You would not be giving up. You would be fighting smarter, not harder.
Giving up is when you quit early without exploring whether victory is possible. You have invested more than enough effort to feel decent, admirable and principled.
Changing course when you see you are running onto rocks is not failure or giving up. It is prudent and wise.
Put on your own air mask before attempting to assist others.

We get it. You are a successful person. You hate to fail. You hate to admit there is a challenge you cannot overcome by dint of will and effort and time.
Divorce is not necessarily failure. You know what the biggest "fail" would be? to stay married to someone who does not love you and won't have sex with you and stays married to you for your money. Epic fail to stay with a person who is merely using you. Success and victory comes from being wise and brave enough to leave.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

An individual counselor can help you process things if you are feeling overwhelmed, confused, angry, or hurt. If your normal life is being impacted then it may be time to seek therapy.

I'd say it's like injuring your ankle. If it hurts a couple of days, no big deal. But if it continues to keep you from being able live normally then it is time to see the doc. Everyone is going to feel anxiety, uncertainty, sadness, anger, etc when there are serious marital problems. If those emotions are short term and don't impact the rest of your life, there's probably no reason for therapy. If you find your sleep is poor, you are losing or gaining weight, and can't concentrate at work, then it may help to seek therapy.

I was a bit of a Nice Guy, which means I was blaming myself for a lot of what was going on. A therapist helped me put things in proper perspective, and to put my own well being as a priority. Especially considering that my wife was making intentional choices as a competent adult, which meant that I should not put her comfort above my well being and happiness. It was also helpful to talk to someone in real life who is impartial. The therapist can confirm that your reactions are normal and reasonable. A therapist can also tell you when you are going off the rails or jumping to conclusions.


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## bkyln309 (Feb 1, 2015)

Do yourself a favor and GET OUT. She is not going to change. 

I was married to someone who I had to push to be successful. One day he up and quit and decided he was never going back to work (didnt tell me this). Basically he spent everything we had. We "saved" the marriage at 5 years same issue and went on to almost 16 years but in the end, he did it again (drained 500k without my knowledge). When we divorced, he had no job. 

Secondly, DO NOT MOVE. Your career is more important as is your life. I also moved after the first debacle to be closer to his family. Took almost an 80 K decrease in salary to move from the East Coast to Texas to be close to his family, save our marriage and start again. OH and far from my family. Also a bad idea as I am still not making what I was and now I am divorced, I am stuck in TX with two kids with no support system in this city. 

This will not get better. Trust me! I regret not moving on at year 5.


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