# We are on a collision course



## NestingWife (Nov 16, 2017)

I wrote a huge essay about this but have decided to condense it to this:

We bought an old fixer--our first house--nearly 4 years ago. He broke his promise to make sure bath and kitchen were renovated before moving in (due to cost overruns, we ran out of money).

Kitchen and bath had no work done when we moved in.

During the past nearly 4 years, many discussions, tears shed, arguments, and no progress on old fixer kitchen. For nearly 4 years, I have spent 2-6 hours per day most days of the week in kitchen and hate every minute of it. Bath got a half remodel 2 years ago.

Nov 1 I was supposed to enroll in health insurance so we could start trying for a baby. 

I didn't do it and I won't until bath and kitchen are fully remodeled. 

I told him when we moved in I'd give it 5 years, max. Since we moved in DH has made it clear he has no intention of moving, selling, etc, has tried to convince me to give it 5-10 additional years. Nope.

DH and I disagree on this. We are on a collision course. The problem has been gradually whittling away at our otherwise happy marriage and now that the Nov 1 deadline has come and gone, *we are in a crisis*. I'm already in my 30s and don't want to wait more than 1 extra year before trying for a baby, but refuse to without further renovations.

Dec 31 2018 will mark 5 years. I'm counting down...and making plans...

How to move forward in a way that will not cause further damage to our marriage? Haven't been this stressed in many years...

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I will pre-answer some questions:

Q: "Why didn't you hire a contractor?"
A: Some of the time we didn't have the money. But during times that we did have the money, DH could not agree on who to hire. DH has a strict set of rules that cannot be broken, as follows: DH must have known the contractor for years and trust them first. I wasn't aware of this strict criteria before I agreed to move in.

During the years we have lived there, we have exhausted every person in our network that meets DH's criteria; they all either bailed out or didn't show up. You can imagine the emotional roller-coaster as I got my hopes up many times, then was let down by these people who didn't show or who bailed out.

Q: "Why did you move in even though kitchen and bath were not done?"
A: Because otherwise we would have had to sign another 1 year contract at the place we were renting. 

Q: "Why don't you move?"
A: DH doesn't want to move; he feels financially secure right now at the old unfinished paid-for fixer and we don't have the cash to pay in-full for a property that is in better condition than this one, as it would cost literally 5 times what we paid for this one. We are both in 100% agreement that we do not want a mortgage or any debt.

Q: "Why do you hate the kitchen so much?"
A: It's a WWII kitchen that's never been renovated, except for the floors, which had tile installed. Laminate counters stained, ripping up, peeling, peeled off, curled up. Cabinet doors warped, growing mold. Cabinet boxes built using hacksaw, very rough, get splinters constantly. Mold. Ancient chipping sink. Clogs constantly. Layout of kitchen prevents installation of dishwasher w/o cutting into built-in-place cabinets and installing plumbing. Layout of kitchen prevents a fridge; fridge is in another room. No pantry. Water heater closet is in the kitchen and has no door, so water heater showing. And studs showing. Kitchen has very little counter space. Constantly having to get very creative when using counter space, but accidents happen, things fall down and crack/break. Wall paint is by now dingy, faded to a hideous yellow. Many other reasons.

Q: "Why do you feel the need to get renovations done before baby? Why not after baby?"
A: After baby, we won't have the time or energy to do these intensive renovations for years. I've always read that once kids come along, you are basically locked down into the situation you are in. I refuse to let that happen to me.


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## JayDee7 (Sep 12, 2017)

Is your husband really not fulfilling his end of the bargain on fixing up the house or are you being a bit too harsh? I ask this because...
You wrote - He broke his promise to make sure bath and kitchen were renovated before moving in (due to cost overruns, we ran out of money).

If he is really hard at work at this and it just has not gone as scheduled then lay off the blame and guilt on him, it will not fix anything and make him not want to try. Us men are better and work harder when our wife is our cheerleader, cheering us on and encouraging us without complaints or blame but with advice and help. If you want to convince him to move and sell the house then talk to him as a loving wife who wants to have a baby in a baby safe house and you want for him to make your dream come true, he might see this as his new goal and make it happen. He might not though but give him a try. Men like making their wives dreams come true.

As for a baby, if you keep planning for the perfect time you will never have a baby. It is never a perfect time. If it is in both of your hearts to have a baby then have a baby.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

I agree with everything you have said.......Time to tell him he duped you and did not honor his obligations. I could/would divorce over this.


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## NestingWife (Nov 16, 2017)

JayDee7 said:


> If he is really hard at work at this and it just has not gone as scheduled then lay off the blame and guilt on him, it will not fix anything and make him not want to try. Us men are better and work harder when our wife is our cheerleader, cheering us on and encouraging us without complaints or blame but with advice and help. If you want to convince him to move and sell the house then talk to him as a loving wife who wants to have a baby in a baby safe house and you want for him to make your dream come true, he might see this as his new goal and make it happen. He might not though but give him a try. Men like making their wives dreams come true.


He is not hard at work at trying to get kitchen and bath remodeled. He believes in fate and he thinks that when it is the "right time," that the "right person" will present themselves and that the job will at that time get done.

The kitchen project never got started, in all the years we've lived there.


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

5 years and the kitchen and bathroom hasn't been finished? I gutted my kitchen and finished the last piece of molding 2 weeks later, and that was just working on the weekends and nights after work. How big is your kitchen?

If you're in your 30's you should start trying for a baby, it gets harder and harder to conceive a healthy baby once you approach 35 and there's a lot more risk of the baby having chromosomal defects from 35-40. It will never be a "perfect time" to have a baby, and potentially ending up childless because the kitchen isn't redone seems kind of ridiculous.


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## Magnesium (Jun 19, 2017)

NestingWife said:


> I wrote a huge essay about this but have decided to condense it to this:
> 
> We bought an old fixer--our first house--nearly 4 years ago. He broke his promise to make sure bath and kitchen were renovated before moving in (due to cost overruns, we ran out of money).
> 
> ...


After moving to the USA, my mother would sometimes tell us "Well, you can go to Preston, or you can drive, but you cannot drive to Preston." In other words, you need to weigh your options and make choices based on your priorities. It seems you and your husband have distinctly different priorities and your crisis is because neither is willing to budge or make any changes. 

Aside from your husband, what are YOU willing to do to not live this way? Are you willing to move out on your own? Are you willing to take on a mortgage to live in a different place? Are you willing to hire contractors your husband does not approve of? Are you willing to do the work yourself? Are you willing to have a baby in an unrefurbished home? Are you willing to meet your husband half way if he is willing to meet you half way? Are you willing to have the same conversations you have already had a thousand times using different words, tone and intent?

This is less about your husband than it is about you. It is not saying that you are wrong for what you want, but you can control how you live and sometimes that means making hard choices -- like leaving the marriage or the home if it is that important to you. Start there and work your way back to determine exactly how much this matters and what you're willing to do to live the life you want to live.


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## NestingWife (Nov 16, 2017)

Betrayedone said:


> I agree with everything you have said.......Time to tell him he duped you and did not honor his obligations. I could/would divorce over this.


We are very much in love and not even remotely interested in separation or divorce, but this is a situation that I feel is not acceptable and must change, and I'm exploring this problem for the first time outside of my own thoughts to gain further clarity.


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## NestingWife (Nov 16, 2017)

Magnesium said:


> you and your husband have distinctly different priorities and your crisis is because neither is willing to budge or make any changes.


That is correct. 



Magnesium said:


> what are YOU willing to do to not live this way? Are you willing to move out on your own?


As a last resort, yes.



Magnesium said:


> Are you willing to take on a mortgage to live in a different place?


No.



Magnesium said:


> Are you willing to hire contractors your husband does not approve of?


Yes. But only as the final step before moving out.



Magnesium said:


> Are you willing to do the work yourself?


Yes. I have already begun to tear out part of it myself.



Magnesium said:


> Are you willing to have a baby in an unrefurbished home?


No.



Magnesium said:


> Are you willing to meet your husband half way if he is willing to meet you half way?


I have been meeting him halfway for nearly 4 years by agreeing to his criteria and by waiting (he always asks me to wait); it leads to zero progress. 



Magnesium said:


> Are you willing to have the same conversations you have already had a thousand times using different words, tone and intent?


Yes.

Thank you for helping me mentally work through this.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

If you have no mortgage, where has the money been going that would otherwise pay the mortgage? Wouldn't you have enough by now to do the house renovations? 



Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

For a young couple of your age, having a nice home means getting a mortgage. Borrow a few thousand dollars and get that kitchen done. Tell him that if he wont find someone, you will. 
In the UK where I live housing is SO expensive, and unless the family are very very rich they all have mortgages or pay rents. If you are both working then you will have plenty to pay back a small loan. 

Or you could move out and say that you will return when the kitchen is done. 

Having said that, billions of babies have been bought up with far less than you have. I had small homes and tiny old kitchens when mine were small, they survived. Even once you get pregnant, you will still have several months to get it done, and maybe it will spur him on.


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## JayDee7 (Sep 12, 2017)

NestingWife said:


> JayDee7 said:
> 
> 
> > If he is really hard at work at this and it just has not gone as scheduled then lay off the blame and guilt on him, it will not fix anything and make him not want to try. Us men are better and work harder when our wife is our cheerleader, cheering us on and encouraging us without complaints or blame but with advice and help. If you want to convince him to move and sell the house then talk to him as a loving wife who wants to have a baby in a baby safe house and you want for him to make your dream come true, he might see this as his new goal and make it happen. He might not though but give him a try. Men like making their wives dreams come true.
> ...



Well that is different then. Yeah, no one is going to magically present themselves and the work will be done. Present this to him in a way that shows that you feel you cannot have a family in this house as it is and that there is no end in sight for the finished home but there is an end in sight for your prime fertile years left and that having a family with him is more important than any house. 

It is worrisome that he is not making the home repair happen but rather delussuonally wishing on a star that it will just work itself out. In five years, unless there were major issues that legitimately prevented him from completing the work. It may be that the job is way over his head and he cannot admit to himself and to you as it would hurt his pride. Best thing I can think of is to give him an out with another plan that he can accomplish and be proud of like selling the house and starting a family.


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

Honestly if you take a mortgage for like 40K out, the payments over 30 years will be $200 a month, and $300 a month for a 15 year fixed. That's nothing to owe on a house. You can get the renovations done in a few months.

You're going to have to compromise somewhere.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

If you love the guy and he's taking care of all your other needs, then get a freakn' loan and have it professionally done. Make sure the house is worth it first. Just take control of the situation. He is a beta male?


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## NickyT (Aug 14, 2017)

I think the truth is that your husband either does not want to do the renovations or he does not want a baby.


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## NestingWife (Nov 16, 2017)

JayDee7 said:


> It is worrisome that he is not making the home repair happen but rather delussuonally wishing on a star that it will just work itself out. In five years, unless there were major issues that legitimately prevented him from completing the work. It may be that the job is way over his head and he cannot admit to himself and to you as it would hurt his pride. Best thing I can think of is to give him an out with another plan that he can accomplish and be proud of like selling the house and starting a family.


He knows, and has admitted, that he has lacked the skills to do it himself, up until recently. He has been gaining the skills as a hobby for the past year, learning from various friends who are teaching him. So, now, he does have the skills (minimally). He does not feel confident enough yet to do the work on his own. 

He is under a lot of stress at work, and his work hours make it very hard. He gets only 1 day off per week, and he works till late. When he gets home he's tired. He says that, due to the emotional pain this kitchen has caused over the past years, he gets sick at the thought of working on it. So, on his days off, he does not get the project started...


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## NestingWife (Nov 16, 2017)

GuyInColorado said:


> If you love the guy and he's taking care of all your other needs, then get a freakn' loan and have it professionally done. Make sure the house is worth it first. Just take control of the situation. He is a beta male?


The house isn't worth it. The foundations are not as good as they should be, and the house is out of level. He is an alpha male.


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## NestingWife (Nov 16, 2017)

NickyT said:


> I think the truth is that your husband either does not want to do the renovations or he does not want a baby.


He does not want to do the renovations himself.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

When we need work done on our house I often sort it out. Just do the same. If he wont do it then you do it.


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## NickyT (Aug 14, 2017)

NestingWife said:


> He does not want to do the renovations himself.


You missed my point: He either does not want the renovations done or he does not want a baby.

I do not believe he is being truthful with you. He has agreed to things that he (in my opinion) has no intention of completing.


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## NestingWife (Nov 16, 2017)

NickyT said:


> You missed my point: He either does not want the renovations done or he does not want a baby.
> 
> I do not believe he is being truthful with you. He has agreed to things that he (in my opinion) has no intention of completing.


Why would he have no intention of completing (or getting started on) the kitchen?


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

NestingWife said:


> Why would he have no intention of completing (or getting started on) the kitchen?


Because it doesn't take 5 years to renovate a kitchen, especially since you have no mortgage. It's 2017 finding a trustworthy contractor is very easy. Unless he's the worlds worst procrastinator, he's not renovating the kitchen on purpose. I'm not saying it's because of the baby, maybe he just doesn't think it's a good investment. Who knows.


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## NickyT (Aug 14, 2017)

NestingWife said:


> Why would he have no intention of completing (or getting started on) the kitchen?


I have no idea. Has he done anything else in the past 5 years or has he been unable to accomplish anything? 

Seriously, you have to WORK to not get a project like that started in 5 years. You have tied it to having a baby...seems to me he figures if he does not renovate the kitchen he does not have to have a baby...or a wife.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

How long do you plan to live in that house? It may be too late to spend money on redoing your kitchen if you don't plan to stay there for many years.

If you don't plan to live there for enough years to pay off the loan to finish the kitchen, or if you plan to sell the house in a few years and your house isn't of the kind where you will recoup the $ spent redoing the kitchen, *why would you spend one more cent on that house?
*
Take that $ to your next house, that has a better foundation and that is worth spending $40k on a new kitchen.

Next time, do your own number crunching *before you buy,* to figure out if your available finances match the $ required to do the repairs and renovations you want to have done. Don't rely on your husband to have the right judgement and information. Neither of you knew you'd run out of money before all the required work was done. It is not all his fault. You learned a lesson, don't make the same one twice. (I had to learn the same lesson you are learning, BTW:|)


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## NestingWife (Nov 16, 2017)

marriageontherocks2 said:


> Because it doesn't take 5 years to renovate a kitchen, especially since you have no mortgage. It's 2017 finding a trustworthy contractor is very easy. Unless he's the worlds worst procrastinator, he's not renovating the kitchen on purpose. I'm not saying it's because of the baby, maybe he just doesn't think it's a good investment. Who knows.


Over the past few years, we have attempted several times to remodel the kitchen in a manner that DH found acceptable. We tried with either 3 or 4 people who met his strict criteria. These were the outcomes:


One of them failed to show up.
One showed up for a consultation, then made a legitimate excuse to not do the project, and we never heard from him again.
One of them showed up several times for consultations and made extensive plans with me, and then had a very legitimate and convenient excuse to not do the project, and we haven't heard from him since.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

IIWY, I wouldn't wait another year. Your time is very very precious. If nothing changes, nothing will change. You are going to have to shake things up to get anything to change. Unfortunately, I think your H doesn't really want any children and he doesn't really care about your feelings about the house.

I would at the very least insist on Marriage Therapy asap. But don't let that become a diversion which burns more time. I think you should be on a very short timeline now. He has failed to live up to his side of the bargain in a very big way, so you are not to be held to staying for 5 full years. He broke the deal, so you are no longer obligated to anything.

Honestly I don't see him changing into somebody else. He has shown who he is. It is time for you to make some decisions rather than waiting any longer.


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## NestingWife (Nov 16, 2017)

Araucaria said:


> ...if...your house isn't of the kind where you will recoup the $ spent redoing the kitchen, *why would you spend one more cent on that house?*


*

So that we could tolerate living in it for a number of years in order to save up to pay cash on the next house.



Araucaria said:



Next time, do your own number crunching before you buy, to figure out if your available finances match the $ required to do the repairs and renovations you want to have done. Don't rely on your husband to have the right judgement and information. Neither of you knew you'd run out of money before all the required work was done. It is not all his fault. You learned a lesson, don't make the same one twice. (I had to learn the same lesson you are learning, BTW:|)

Click to expand...

He did not believe my number crunching. But to be fair, neither of us knew ahead of time what all was going to need doing. There were a lot of renovations that did happen before moving in, but none of them included kitchen, bath or laundry rooms. He had a general guess as to the costs, and I told him expect it will cost 20% more than you think, if not more. I was right.*


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

NestingWife said:


> We are very much in love and not even remotely interested in separation or divorce ...


But the title of your thread, and your initial post, both say you are on a "collision course." I don't know what type of collision you are referring to, but it doesn't sound like you two are - at least for the present time - as in love as you profess. Additionally, you have put off conception because of the issue with the kitchen. 

From the way you describe your husband, he sounds like the poster child for passive-aggressive behavior. I'm out here on my laptop in cyberspace; I have no idea why he's actually taken five years to do a remodel. Nobody meets with his specifications and several contractors have bailed. You've mentioned several times that he has very stringent criteria for who can remodel the kitchen. Since it sounds like he's not qualified to do it, I wonder why he has such high standards. I mean, you are cooking in what sounds like an unhealthy environment, yet he has stalled the improvement/upgrade for five years? Something isn't right with this ... 

If I have the above synopsis correct, then I'd say if you want the kitchen remodeled you hire and pay a contractor yourself.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Since you plan to stay in it, then get it fixed the way you like. Life is too short to be miserable for years over a few tens of thousands of dollars.

Tell your husband to meet you at the bank to get the mortgage next week. If he refuses, divorce him and have your baby with someone else who actually cares about your nesting happiness. Gosh, you're going to be spending a lot of time in the rooms you need renovated (unless he is the domestic type..is he?) so you'd think he would care about your needs. Those are needs, right, not wants?

BTW...I had 4 healthy children after I turned 36. My youngest was born when I was 42. My only issue was pre-term labor, which much younger women also can have. You have a few years left to start your family, so don't get in a hurry until you are sure that your marriage is stable again. Was it ever stable?


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Contractors can be frustrating, since they are constantly trying to get more jobs lined up for the future, and they don't get back with you if they find a better paying contract than yours.

In my town there is a tile place that acts as the contractor to get remodels (bathroom and kitchen) done. They advertise on the radio. 
They are fairly big and well known, so they must be with the BBB and do a decent job to keep their reputation.

Do you have tile companies like that in your town? Do you have to go with a single private contractor, or can you go with a larger business that has people who do their work for them?


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## Slartibartfast (Nov 7, 2017)

..


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I understand where you're at. My oldest, bestest friend and his wife have been renovating their home for the past *30-plus* years. The kitchen and bathrooms are still not complete. Now they're retired, and he has health issues that limit his ability to do the work - so, it will probably never be _complete_. At this point - and for the last decade or so - they've adjusted to this and it's the normal situation for them. Mind you, he's bought raw lumber and done his own milling and routering to make custom flooring and mouldings. The stuff that's done is beautiful - but, it will never be DONE in their lifetimes. Not even close. Somehow, they've survived all this and raised their special needs kids and grandkids and had their demanding careers. They could live in this mess, even though it was raw and unfinished. I guess you need to choose your priorities, really, and go from there.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

NestingWife said:


> The house isn't worth it. *The foundations are not as good as they should be, and the house is out of level.* He is an alpha male.


Why on earth then, would you spend a dime on that house? You'd be much better off paying off small mortgage on a better house.

You're just throwing good money after bad, investing a dime in this one.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I think some here are right to make you look at and consider the possible ROOT CAUSE of why he hasn't fundamentally kept his promise to you.

He seems extremely passive. You can love him all you want, but I'd seriously revisit having a child with this man. The kitchen/bathroom is a good predictor of his future behavior. Passivity while you're pregnant and while trying to raise a small child will absolutely drive you up the wall. You say that divorce is not an option and I get it, but I can't help but think your future looks more like that of a single parent in terms of responsibility than that of a married woman.

I'd been there for 13 years myself with my ex H and let me tell you: being with a man who has the same priorities as you, respects your timetable, and just fricking gets **** done is miles better.


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## SpicyGinger (Nov 18, 2017)

You are using your ability to bear children as a tool to get what you want and control the situation. Your concern is all about you and what you agreed on. What you're failing to consider is that it's not his fault you ran out of money. It's not like he's a drug addict and spent all the renovation money on crack. You guys ran out of money. Renovation is expensive. Instead of holding the prospect of having kids hostage, make a plan with him. Have you ever sat down and gone over the budget and made room to save x amount of dollars per month until you could afford to fix the bathroom and kitchen? Now would be a great time (depending on where you live) to refinance the house and pull some equity out and use that money to hire a contractor. You're putting the cart before the horse. If you REALLY want a baby, an ugly kitchen and bathroom won't matter. You should see what my husband and I started off with and what we are dealing with now with a 17-month-old and a 3-week-old. If you want kids, these are not reasons not to have them. These are your bargaining chips, and that is really unfair for your husband.


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## SpicyGinger (Nov 18, 2017)

because OBVIOUSLY he's totally fine with the way it is. If he HATED the kitchen, he would've fixed it, right? So he is telling you, "Yes, dear. I will do it," to shut you up, essentially. He has no intention of actually fixing the kitchen.


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## NestingWife (Nov 16, 2017)

frusdil said:


> Why on earth then, would you spend a dime on that house? You'd be much better off paying off small mortgage on a better house.
> 
> You're just throwing good money after bad, investing a dime in this one.


Before we moved in, we invested 20k in other renovations tearing out and putting in new floors/subfloors, removing walls, putting in drywall, trim, paint, bath half-remodel, doors, etc. We made the decision that the house was worth doing this as long as we lived our money out of it, even given the fact that it's out of level and will never be completely right.

Given this, it makes sense to put a little bit more into getting the kitchen/bath/laundry done as long as it doesn't go over 10k collectively, and as long as we stay in the house long enough to have lived our money's worth out of it. At least, that is our thinking.

As a side note, almost all the people we used for this original 20k renovation, we would never use again because we were unhappy with the quality of their work. We are left with drywall where the tape shows through, paint that is in very bad shape, and places in the floor where they were level when we moved in but now have a roll to them. For clarification, the floors always had a roll to them, but in one bedroom we managed to take all the roll out. The roll in that bedroom is back.


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## NestingWife (Nov 16, 2017)

Betrayedone said:


> Time to tell him he duped you and did not honor his obligations.


I have been thinking about the word you used here: "obligations." It has stuck in my mind since yesterday and is something I haven't thought about before. DH and I do many things for each other automatically on a daily basis out of love and we don't give it a second thought. Are these things obligations?

What are marital obligations? Do they vary between couples? What are my obligations, and what are his obligations? Who gets to say what is an obligation, and why? Why is he obligated to renovate the kitchen/bath? Is it because he promised to do it, and wasn't able to follow through due to financial constraints?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

NestingWife said:


> What are marital obligations? Do they vary between couples? What are my obligations, and what are his obligations? Who gets to say what is an obligation, and why? Why is he obligated to renovate the kitchen/bath? Is it because he promised to do it, and wasn't able to follow through due to financial constraints?


It seems you've decided to camp out on the term "obligations." You started this thread, so you can certainly decide to begin a discourse on the meaning of the word. The thing is, this is the internet. We "hear" how things come across, but they are conveyed through our own subjective lenses. 

You are here to discuss YOUR marriage. So, the logical conclusion (for me, at least) is to ask you if you feel he is "obligated" to renovate the kitchen. After all, that is what you initially came here to discuss.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Here is what I would do.

I would stock up on sandwich fixin's and paper plates. I'd move the microwave and coffee pot into the dining room.

Then I'd take a sledge hammer to the kitchen. I'd knock out the upper cabinets. I'd figure out how to leave the sink functional for the time being (sawsall??), and knock out the lower cabinets. 

I'd figure out how to do the things I can. I did in fact tile a huge house when my ex dropped the ball AFTER the floors were ripped out. I figured out the tile saw, I did the math and figured out how much tile to buy, I even went to Home Depot to one of their little trainings on how to lay tile. 

I'd look online about how to do inexpensive things to make a kitchen presentable and efficient. I'd get a Home Depot guy to come and measure for new cabinets. I'd pick their brain about a contractor who could fix the plumbing and move the hot water heater. 

SOME things you can just do. ANYONE can do the demo part. Figure out what parts YOU can do. Don't tell h you are going to do this. Just do it. If he will help .... great. If he wants to actually hire someone, great. If not...you get it started and then you'll HAVE to hire some one for some of it.


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## NestingWife (Nov 16, 2017)

Prodigal said:


> So, the logical conclusion (for me, at least) is to ask you if you feel he is "obligated" to renovate the kitchen. After all, that is what you initially came here to discuss.


I have spent a few hours searching "obligations in marriage," and I was surprised to find precious little on the topic. Most of the literature I found on the topic related to divorce, not marriage. I did not find specific examples, except as it relates to children.

At this point I am not 100% sure what a marital obligation is, vs a marital duty, vs a marital responsibility. The topic is not clear to me.

At this point I only know what I will, and will not, continue to live with.



SunnyT said:


> SOME things you can just do. ANYONE can do the demo part. Figure out what parts YOU can do. Don't tell h you are going to do this. Just do it. If he will help .... great. If he wants to actually hire someone, great. If not...you get it started and then you'll HAVE to hire some one for some of it.


I began the demo a week ago but stopped because DH reminded me there is electrical wiring behind the walls and we do not know which switches in the panel box correspond to which areas of the house, and I do not want to be electrocuted. We will need to do a test and label each switch.

After this thread and a few conversations with close friends, I have decided that my next course of action will be to have a discussion with DH shortly after thanksgiving, letting him know, for the first time, that I will not continue to live with the situation as it is, and to inform him of my time-frame, and the actions I will be taking at the end of the time-frame. This will be the first conversation of this level of magnitude in our marriage and it frightens me, but it feels like the right thing to do and at this point it's inevitable. 

I will emphasize to him that I have no interest in leaving, that I want a long and happy marriage with him, that I want to live in the same house with him, and that he needs to work with me to accomplish these projects by the open enrollment date next year.

I will post an update here after this conversation has happened. Thank you to everyone who responded. It helped to give me perspective and to work through this mentally.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Sounds like a plan.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Men love to eat. Do you cook for your husband?

If you do, take one more sliver from that kitchen and then declare you can no longer cook in there!
And then, DON’T.

If it was my H in this situation, he would skip sleep to work on it round the clock and sell his kidney to fund getting the kitchen done within the shortest imaginable amount of time!


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## NestingWife (Nov 16, 2017)

anastasia6 said:


> Sounds like a plan.


There are plans, and then there's real life. I was planning on putting off this discussion until after Thanksgiving so that DH and I could relax, unwind, and de-stress, which is something DH doesn't get nearly enough of.

But holding it in caused me to have increasing anxiety and depression that got worse with each day until he pried it out of me last night.

So we had the talk. 

He questions whether or not I have a right to feel the way I do. I told him that it's not really up for debate or discussion: I evaluated my thoughts and feelings on the matter for days (and really, for years) and I feel the way I feel about it, and I do not believe I'm being unreasonable.

We discussed 5 options that I came up with to get the projects done before the deadline next year: he only found one to be acceptable, and that was that he and I do the renovations ourselves, even though we lack experience and skills, and I'm not sure how that will go... 

He comes from the opposite background that I come from, and he has a past. Therefore, he has a different set of expectations and priorities than I do, and they have never aligned in certain ways with mine. He believes in waiting for the right person at the right time and the right circumstances to come along, and I told him that was no longer something I was willing to live with. I don't believe it's right or fair to hold ourselves hostage to fate or chance etc. He said it doesn't matter what's fair, fairness doesn't enter into the equation. 

Something I don't understand--the emotional fallout. This talk caused a dark, thick cloud of doom to come over him and by extension me too. Why is this such a big, huge, doom and gloom bad monster? It's just a kitchen! He didn't sleep hardly at all last night. Why does he keep delaying this kitchen instead of getting it done? It has, by now, costed us much more emotional energy and time resisting getting it done, than actually getting it done.

I don't think this is right, this emotional doom cloud. I was hoping that he and I would have been able to reach a new level of understanding and finally be able to agree and move forward in a positive and constructive way, but instead this doom cloud...


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

NestingWife said:


> He questions whether or not I have a right to feel the way I do.


Wow. Just. Wow. He questions your "right" to feel the way you do??? Who died and made him god? 



NestingWife said:


> We discussed 5 options that I came up with to get the projects done before the deadline next year: *he only found one to be acceptable*, and that was that he and I do the renovations ourselves, even though we lack experience and skills, and I'm not sure how that will go...


Does he have the final say in this? The reason I ask is because he has sat on his butt for five years and done nothing with regard to the kitchen. I don't see this ending well at all. 



NestingWife said:


> He comes from the opposite background that I come from, and *he has a past*. Therefore, he has a different set of expectations and priorities than I do, and they have never aligned in certain ways with mine. He believes in waiting for the right person at the right time and the right circumstances to come along, and I told him that was no longer something I was willing to live with. I don't believe it's right or fair to hold ourselves hostage to fate or chance etc. *He said it doesn't matter what's fair, fairness doesn't enter into the equation.*


*

What do you mean when you say your H has a "past"? I'm guessing you think that's why he is the way he is. So his majesty has also decreed that fairness isn't a deciding factor in this. Or anything else, is my guess ... The way you describe his reaction to the discussion creeps me out on so many levels. Saying this matter isn't fair to him sounds more like "My way or the highway" to me. 

And the dark cloud you mention sounds to me like his passive-aggressive way of letting you know he is not pleased that you dared to stand up for yourself and be assertive. I couldn't live with this type of man in the marriage you describe. But, to each his own.*


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## NestingWife (Nov 16, 2017)

Prodigal said:


> Wow. Just. Wow. He questions your "right" to feel the way you do??? Who died and made him god?


He believes my expectations are unrealistic. I disagree.



Prodigal said:


> Does he have the final say in this? The reason I ask is because he has sat on his butt for five years and done nothing with regard to the kitchen. I don't see this ending well at all.


He has not sat on his butt, he has made attempts that all failed. He does not have a final say, we both have to agree. And we agreed on a way forward, but not in a positive way that lifted our spirits.



Prodigal said:


> What do you mean when you say your H has a "past"? I'm guessing you think that's why he is the way he is. So his majesty has also decreed that fairness isn't a deciding factor in this. Or anything else, is my guess ... The way you describe his reaction to the discussion creeps me out on so many levels. Saying this matter isn't fair to him sounds more like "My way or the highway" to me.


Yes, his past is why he is the way he is. No, he has decided that we will renovate the kitchen, but he feels that I will always find something I don't like, that I'm hard to please, and that I'm a "pain in the ass" at times. I will admit, I am a very stubborn person, so he's right about me being a pain in the ass at times. But it's not like he's a walk in the park, and he knows that too.



Prodigal said:


> And the dark cloud you mention sounds to me like his passive-aggressive way of letting you know he is not pleased that you dared to stand up for yourself and be assertive. I couldn't live with this type of man in the marriage you describe. But, to each his own.


It doesn't feel like passive aggression. He was deeply and genuinely saddened and worried, did a lot of crying. What I am posting on the forum does make him sound like some kind of overbearing monster, but that is due to me trying to keep things short and concise. I should clarify that he does care deeply about my happiness and tries hard to make me happy. He is always there to comfort me if I'm down; he is very emotionally supportive, tender, loving, and romantic. 

He has high stress levels due to his job, and he has asked me to put all of my plans and expectations for the projects on hold.

This is why we are on a collision course: he wants me to slow down, and my dwindling fertility window is telling me to speed up.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

NestingWife said:


> This is why we are on a collision course: he wants me to slow down, and my dwindling fertility window is telling me to speed up.


Slow down??! It's been almost 5 years, correct? Does he really mean slow down on baby making? When is the last time you guys have talked about that issue?

The house isn't the problem. It's your husband. 

And I think I'm the dissenting voice here, but I think it's super smart for you to want better living conditions before you bring a child into this world. Your reasons for it don't sound high-maintenance to me. I hope you realize this is giving you a Golden Ticket glimpse into what he will be like as a father. He sounds very controlling and dare I say a wee bit narcissistic to think that he can do the work himself when he is not properly trained. We are not just talking about painting some walls.

Will the stress and hours of his job change soon in order to allow you both to do the work yourself as you've mutually agreed to? If not, it'll be 5 more years of you having the same convo. 

Pick up the phone and call a contractor of your choosing already.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

NestingWife said:


> This is why we are on a collision course: he wants me to slow down, and my dwindling fertility window is telling me to speed up.


But you're the one who has put off getting pregnant due to your husband's inaction on remodeling the kitchen.

Look, I've chewed on this for awhile, and your thread is chock full of inconsistencies. You claim your marriage is "in crisis" (YOUR words, not mine) and you are on a collision course. Yet when I reply that your husband has sat on his butt regarding the kitchen remodeling, you defend him.

There is something about this entire thread that doesn't sound quite right. Either it's bogus, or you are way too invested in drama. Seriously. Consider what you have posted. Also consider we are all strangers out in cyberspace. You are coming across as someone who is not handling a kitchen remodel and your husband's long-term hesitancy to commit to said remodel as a life-or-death blow to the marriage.

Really. Read what you have posted. You claim the marriage is in crisis, but you would NEVER even consider leaving/divorce. You two are very much in love with one another. Uh, excuse me, but anyone who is delaying a family over ANYTHING in their marriage has serious doubts. In my estimation, serious doubts doesn't equate to being all that much in love. It equates to a marriage in trouble. That's what you are basically saying.

You come across as a drama queen to me. JMO.

P.S. - I apologize for my redundancy in this post. I don't feel like editing it because I'm tired from all the Thanksgiving crap. Either way, you get my drift.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

At some deep subconscious level OP you must know that after 5 years, something is not quite right in your marriage dynamics that you had not had the guts to realistically accept and that's why you are here.

As it was already adviced here, you just wait until you have children and things need to be prioritise immediately. You will be in for a lot more trouble than a kitchen remodeling that was not done after 5 years. You can take or leave the advice being dispensed here to you, your choice. Just remember this in a few years when, and, if you have children with him.

Just remember the devil is not the devil just because he's the devil, but for being old. Being old brings all those terrible, painful mistakes one makes throughout life, and if we are smart enough, we learn from all those mistakes.

Even if not everything being said here applies to you, be smart enough to recognise the collective wisdom from people of all ages and circumstances that based on what you have posted here sense that there is at least a recognition of problems that goes beyond the kitchen remodeling, based on people's past experiences in this life. Hope you pay some heed to what's being adviced here.


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## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

Another idea. Pick a day when you know he won't be home. Borrow a sledge hammer and a good pry bar...maybe a crow bar. Wreck that kitchen! Pull out all of the cabinets, the oven...everything! If you need help to do it, get the help you need! If you can afford a dumpster or someone to haul it all always - do it! Smile sweetly when he comes home and reassure him you will help with the rebuild. Should work, and give you YEARS of good story telling too.


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## NestingWife (Nov 16, 2017)

lucy999 said:


> When is the last time you guys have talked about that issue?


Constantly since we moved in.



lucy999 said:


> The house isn't the problem. It's your husband.


Yes. Some people say I am a very high functioning Asperger--perhaps they are right. Either way, it takes me a longer time than most people to figure out and wade through complex social issues. I get the feeling that most of you here on the forums--had you been in my circumstances--would have arrived at my discoveries at least 2 years before I did.



lucy999 said:


> Will the stress and hours of his job change soon in order to allow you both to do the work yourself as you've mutually agreed to? If not, it'll be 5 more years of you having the same convo.


It's funny you mention that. Within 24 hours he tells me it may take 2 years to get it done as a DIY project. Which then violated our prior agreement and now we are no longer in agreement.



lucy999 said:


> Pick up the phone and call a contractor of your choosing already.


This is not a completely normal individual I am dealing with. He has a past. Due to his past, he and I cannot take this step at this time. I have decided to pursue counseling on this matter.



Prodigal said:


> Yet when I reply that your husband has sat on his butt regarding the kitchen remodeling, you defend him.


It is because it is not entirely his fault; he has a past that causes him to be this way. I have been waiting on him to be able to get beyond this so that we can move on with our life plans, but he doubled down today and said he cannot and does not have any expectation to be able to get beyond this, and that I need to stop trying to "push" him about it. 

And that is not something I can or will continue to accept. Counseling is the next step to further explore this issue.



Prodigal said:


> There is something about this entire thread that doesn't sound quite right.


You are correct; there is something that isn't quite right. 



Prodigal said:


> your husband's long-term hesitancy to commit to said remodel as a life-or-death blow to the marriage.


You are correct; it will be a life blow to the marriage if he continues to be unable to do it, regardless of his reasons. The next step on this issue is counseling, but if this situation continues without resolution yes it will ultimately lead to separation and if still no resolution then ultimately yes divorce.



Rob_1 said:


> At some deep subconscious level OP you must know that after 5 years, something is not quite right in your marriage dynamics that you had not had the guts to realistically accept and that's why you are here.


It took me way too long to figure out, but I finally discovered the thing that was not quite right about a week ago. And now I am exploring counseling so that I can figure out how to deal with it.



Rob_1 said:


> As it was already adviced here, you just wait until you have children and things need to be prioritise immediately. You will be in for a lot more trouble than a kitchen remodeling that was not done after 5 years. You can take or leave the advice being dispensed here to you, your choice. Just remember this in a few years when, and, if you have children with him.


This is exactly what my dad told me too. I will take yours, and others' advice to heart.



DoneIn said:


> Another idea. Pick a day when you know he won't be home. Borrow a sledge hammer and a good pry bar...maybe a crow bar. Wreck that kitchen! Pull out all of the cabinets, the oven...everything! If you need help to do it, get the help you need! If you can afford a dumpster or someone to haul it all always - do it! Smile sweetly when he comes home and reassure him you will help with the rebuild. Should work, and give you YEARS of good story telling too.


Somewhere after counseling, but before separation, this is something I will attempt, yes.

Thank you everyone for helping me. It is much appreciated. I will consider this thread to have run its course, as I will be pursuing counseling. I feel like this thread was productive and beneficial.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

This nebulous "he has a past" thing needs to get sorted. Maybe you don't want to share with us, but if it's really putting both your feet in cement, then get some therapy or find a way to address it and tackle it. There are so many obstacles that seem to pop up in your story.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

NestingWife said:


> He knows, and has admitted, that he has lacked the skills to do it himself, up until recently. He has been gaining the skills as a hobby for the past year, learning from various friends who are teaching him. So, now, he does have the skills (minimally). He does not feel confident enough yet to do the work on his own.
> 
> He is under a lot of stress at work, and his work hours make it very hard. He gets only 1 day off per week, and he works till late. When he gets home he's tired. He says that, due to the emotional pain this kitchen has caused over the past years, he gets sick at the thought of working on it. So, on his days off, he does not get the project started...


Do you have a job, just curious? 

If your husband does not have the skills and is too stressed/tired from work, then it makes sense that he would not want to do the work. so let him off the hook.

I like the idea of you two getting a small mortgage and use that money to fix up the kitchen, bath and whatever else needs fixing. Why not? 

Where have you been finding contractors that do not show up? There are businesses with store fronts that do this sort of renovation. Have you tired one of those instead of contractors who basically work for themselves? Also, have a lawyer look for the contractor license to make sure that it's a good contract.

It would be nuts to being a baby into a house with mold/mildew growing all over the bathroom and kitchen. it's setting your baby up for asthma and/or other health issues. That is the argument that you might want to use with your husband. You need a healthy home for your baby and you will not bring a baby into this environment. Also, your kitchen is a WWII kitchen? That means that there must be a lot of lead paint in that house as well. Have you ensured that the lead paint is adequately sealed so as to not poison a baby? Mildew is also a health risk. If you have mold in your kitchen and bath, you probably also have mildew. 


https://www.livestrong.com/article/226575-what-is-the-effect-of-house-mold-in-infants/
Mold: The Hidden Allergy Problem

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/tips.htm

Make your home a healthy place for the child you want to have. Until it is, don't have a child.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Well, it seems that we cannot help you if we don't know something about this past of his that makes him put up a wall to address the problems with your home... the problems that he had promised you that he would fix.

I cannot think of any kind of past that would prevent him from going forward on fixing his own home.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

DoneIn said:


> Another idea. Pick a day when you know he won't be home. Borrow a sledge hammer and a good pry bar...maybe a crow bar. Wreck that kitchen! Pull out all of the cabinets, the oven...everything! If you need help to do it, get the help you need! If you can afford a dumpster or someone to haul it all always - do it! Smile sweetly when he comes home and reassure him you will help with the rebuild. Should work, and give you YEARS of good story telling too.


LOL, I agree with this!

Here, borrow mine:









But remember - pics! Or it didn't happen


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Is he an escapee from prison or on the lam from the law?

His obligation to you means he keeps his promises to you. His fault, your fault, nobody's fault - he has failed for 5 years to honor his commitment to renovate that kitchen. In short, he duped you into moving into that dump.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Just some thoughts:

- Obligations are fluid and defined differently by different people. You obviously think he is obliged to work with you to get this done. He may think that, too, but he probably thinks he HAS worked with you on it. The two of you have different expectations and senses of obligation.

- You say he's an alpha male who works a lot and has little down time at home. Why don't you just do some of the work yourself while he is gone? Is the kitchen so disgusting that you can't make it livable?

- Why are you waiting to get pregnant to get health insurance?

In my own marriage, I would have just done this myself. So he can't do his part to organize getting this done? Then I will do it. And I will take whatever heat he throws my way in the relationship. If it's that important to me, I will take the chance of sowing the marital discord.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> In my own marriage, I would have just done this myself. So he can't do his part to organize getting this done? Then I will do it. And I will take whatever heat he throws my way in the relationship. If it's that important to me, I will take the chance of sowing the marital discord.


I agree with this. It's what I did when I was married. If anything needed to be done, I had to do it myself or it would not get done. The things that I could not do, I hired someone to do.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

It does not matter what your husband's excuse is for not fixing your home. Your home is not a healthy environment, this is not just about aesthetics. if he has emotional hang-ups, he needs to deal with his problems and not impose them on your and your future children.


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

NestingWife said:


> It's funny you mention that. Within 24 hours he tells me it may take 2 years to get it done as a DIY project. Which then violated our prior agreement and now we are no longer in agreement.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...




I see nothing but fear from you in these posts. Is he physically abusive?
Or if not, what are you so afraid of?

What is preventing you from making an ultimatum? By Jan 15 either he gets a contractor he likes, or you call and pick a contractor and he stands down and lets you manage the remodel.

Is the worst that can happen a huge fight? If so, so what? Put on your big girl panties and stick to your guns and have it out.


If you’re afraid of anything worse than a huge fight (I.e., abuse) - why would you have kids with him?

Also, I don’t understand the finances here. Do you work outside the home? If not, why not?
Where’s the family income going if there’s no mortgage, no kids, and no spending on remodeling??? 
And why the adamant resistance to a mortgage for a suitable house, or a HELOC to finance a remodel?
Is there a past history of debt or active debt hanging over him?

Finally - why are you waiting on getting pregnant before getting health insurance?

There’s something weird going on with your husband, and with your financials. You need to tell us what’s really going on if we are going to help you.


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