# She doesn't like to be touched



## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

My wife and I have been trying to work out the sex issue that is pervasive in our marriage. As background we have two kids, 4 yrs old and 7 months old. She stays home and breastfeeds the 7 month old but the BFing has weaned dramatically now that he has started eating solid food. He sleeps through the night and has been for about 3 months. He's a good baby, much easier than the first. 

This problem started when she became pregnant with the second and has continued throughout the pregnancy and now in the 7 months since he was born. 

So on to the problem. We haven't had intercourse in about a year. After the baby was born we did engage in sexual activity about once a week which usually consisted of mutual masturbation. It was ok for awhile. Note: she won't give BJs and never really has. 

So in the past two months approximately she has now decided she doesn't even want me to touch her sexually. Whenever I try she pulls my hand away and says she can't get in the mood and she can't help it. She will give me a handjob either fully clothed or will take just her pants off. I am very upset about the situation. I asked her why she can't get turned on and she says she doesn't know. I asked her if she was still attracted to me and she said yes. 

I've done what I can to help her relax. Yesterday for example I watched the kids while she got her haircut and then went to get a pedicure in the afternoon. Then we went on a date last night and came home to the offer of another handjob and her not wanting to be touched. 

Is this normal? I know women can lose sex drive after birth and especially BFing but I haven't even been able to touch her sexually since Christmas. She's just dead as far as intimacy. Am I wrong to expect her to be turned on every now and then?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Yes, you are wrong to expect it but you are not wrong to want it. Pregnancy does things to our bodies...Is she on hormonal birth control?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

No more kids shes done. It possible she somehow turns this around but more likely this is the way it will be... you did your part and gave her kids now you are permanently bottom of the list be careful not to look needy. Welcome to fatherhood. Enjoy the hand jobs those will subside one day.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

Not on BC. My "expectations" are once a week. 




lifeistooshort said:


> Yes, you are wrong to expect it but you are not wrong to want it. Pregnancy does things to our bodies...Is she on hormonal birth control?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Yes, you are wrong to expect it but you are not wrong to want it.


I partially disagree. While he can't expect sex at any moment, he certainly has a right not to expect a life of celibacy from now on. 



> _Pregnancy does things to our bodies_


She's not pregnant any more. 

Jd08,

Her saying she "doesn't know" what the problem is, is not acceptable. You are more patient than I could be. I remember your other threads but don't remember if you two have had marriage counseling. Have you gone that route, and if so, what happened?


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

We haven't gone yet. You may remember she wanted to go see an unlicensed Christian MC which I was not thrilled about. We had appts the last two weeks but both were cancelled due to her being sick one week and then being snowed in last week. I will go to this person one time to see how it is but I would really prefer to see a secular MC as I am not a religious person. I also do not really want my marriage being counseled by someone who couldn't bother to get a counseling license from the state. I used an analogy with my wife since I am a lawyer. I asked her if she would get legal advice from someone who went to law school but didn't take or pass the bar exam. That didn't really seem to faze her. She's blinded by the Christian angle. 

I have tried to be as patient as possible for my family and the kids and have been compromising with her at every turn. I will take HJs and be happy sometimes but I think there is a problem if a wife NEVER wants to be intimate with her husband whether there are little kids around or not. 




Theseus said:


> I partially disagree. While he can't expect sex at any moment, he certainly has a right not to expect a life of celibacy from now on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Your wifee is not her own anymore. She is to take care of your needs as her own and I know you are doing the same for her.

No sex and now nothing and doesn't want to be touched either?!

Two beautiful kids, good for you.

After the ladies have kids, some of them have major hormonal changes and that means they have no interest in sex or anything physical. It happens. She can go to the family Dr. and get meds to correct this. Or her hormones may return to normal in some years. Or they may never return.

If she knows her complete lack of sex drive is a huge issue, why doesn't she do something about it, instead of making you, her loving hubby suffer needlessly????

I know guys at the shop that have women who have healthy sex drives and even after a few months of giving birth, they want sex again on a regular basis.

Could you both take the 5 love languages quiz and then compare the results with each other. Helped my wifee and I out immensely.
Language Profile | The 5 Love Languages®

Wish you all the best brother.


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## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

jd08 said:


> d.
> 
> Is this normal? I know women can lose sex drive after birth and especially BFing but I haven't even been able to touch her sexually since Christmas. She's just dead as far as intimacy. Am I wrong to expect her to be turned on every now and then?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, it's not normal. And you are not wrong to expect her to be turned on. 

If she is not getting turned on, she should CARE that she's not getting turned on. From your posts on this subject your wife has never considered sex a priority. Typically you post about the problem, address it with her, she amps it up to placate you for a while and then eventually you are back at square one when the panic has resided. I agree it almost looks like she used sex to have the kids she wanted and now simply values the status of being married to you. 

You are worth and deserving of far more than that. If you don't want to see a non licensed counsellor, then insist on this. Tell her if it's secular has to be a licensed professional, or you might as well visit your MIL for advice.

Sorry to be so blunt but it's hard to read how you're always pampering her and bending over backwards for a few crumbs.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Pregnancy absolutely screws up our hormonal balance and just because the pregnancy is over doesn't mean the hormones go back to what they used to be.

So first line of inquiry should be to her OB/GYN. Go with her. Tell the doc she has zero interest in sex at all. I was the same way after my first and had no idea what was going on. While she is there, she should also have her thyroid checked.

It takes a full year to get your pregregnancy energy back and fatigue plays havoc on sex drive.

Becoming a mother takes us OUT of sexy girlfriend mode and into mother mode. Mothers are supposed to be sexless, virginal, modest... Not the person who is jumping your bones as soon as the kids are asleep. So your date night was an excellent start, but it takes a while to get that mother mode put into the right perspective.

Younger women need to talk to older women, who have been there done that and come out the other side. Marriage includes sex and a woman who has lost her sex drive is endangering the marriage, even if she doesn't fully understand it herself, she must understand that you can't live like this.

As your wife tries to get things back on track watch your resentment level. You have to strike a delicate balance between being authentic (I feel like you don't want me any more and that rejection hurts more than I can say) and not being whiny or pouty about it. A very difficult balance but you must be a smart guy if you passed the bar so I bet you'll figure it out.

Do not see a "Christian counselor" especially if this person hasn't taken and passed the boards. I don't know what state your in but I find it reprehensible that unqualified people can practice in the mental health field.

However, instead of arguing about qualifications why not ask why it is she wants to see this person? Did she have a friend recommend this woman, is it the fact this MC is a Christian? Is your wife trying to get you to be more devout? You know, they advocate the husband being head of household and the wife submitting. Could she be looking for you to take more leadership? Just some thoughts....

Lastly, it is very telling that she is seeking help via MC and not just shrugging her shoulders. Obviously she feels that the relationship is lacking somewhere, or she feels the change from couple hood to parenthood isn't something that is working for her on some level.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

This is most likely an attraction issue no matter what she says. Read MMSLP and The Mindful Attraction Plan.


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## Pandakiss (Oct 29, 2010)

Same thing happened to me. I was just touched out. I could not stand any touch and it was kinda skin crawler so sad. My husband had requirements of sex 4-6 times a week and oral at least 3 times a week. 

The thought was like uggghh. I just did what I had to do and had a talk with myself. It went like "self, you loved sex a year ago, so what's the problem??", "oh I don't know, I just don't like it now...", "well to damn bad, self, you got married to this dude and had kids, you remember years ago that talk we had about sex in the marriage and sex leaves, so does he???, "well yea....", "do you want to be alone with 4 kids...??", "HELL NO". 

So I had sex when I didn't want, gave him oral just about every time. Was up front about how tired I was, and if I start snoring it's not personal, and you might as well keep going. 

About a year later my drive came right back.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

wilderness said:


> This is most likely an attraction issue no matter what she says. Read MMSLP and The Mindful Attraction Plan.


I agree. She's not going to tell you straight to your face that she's not attracted to you even if you ask her. She doesn't want to hurt your feelings.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

jd08 said:


> My wife and I have been trying to work out the sex issue that is pervasive in our marriage. As background we have two kids, 4 yrs old and 7 months old. She stays home and breastfeeds the 7 month old but the BFing has weaned dramatically now that he has started eating solid food. He sleeps through the night and has been for about 3 months. He's a good baby, much easier than the first.
> 
> This problem started when she became pregnant with the second and has continued throughout the pregnancy and now in the 7 months since he was born.
> 
> So on to the problem. We haven't had intercourse in about a year. After the baby was born we did engage in sexual activity about once a week which usually consisted of mutual masturbation. It was ok for awhile. Note: she won't give BJs and never really has.


Did she "hear" something from another female which made her settle into this pattern? Has she been influenced?



jd08 said:


> So in the past two months approximately she has now decided she doesn't even want me to touch her sexually. Whenever I try she pulls my hand away and says she can't get in the mood and she can't help it. She will give me a handjob either fully clothed or will take just her pants off. I am very upset about the situation. I asked her why she can't get turned on and she says she doesn't know. I asked her if she was still attracted to me and she said yes.


It sounds like she wants to remain in control. The entire dynamic removes control from when you used to engage and mount her, everything is on her terms now. It will affect and drain much of your swagger. I just wonder if males outside the relationship are able to excite her.



jd08 said:


> I've done what I can to help her relax. Yesterday for example I watched the kids while she got her haircut and then went to get a pedicure in the afternoon. Then we went on a date last night and came home to the offer of another handjob and her not wanting to be touched.


A loving beta move. It's a great move for those whose spouses gush more for them, the more love is shown to them. For those who are having these power and control issues and balance issues, giving hurts it. Sucks I know.



jd08 said:


> Is this normal? I know women can lose sex drive after birth and especially BFing but I haven't even been able to touch her sexually since Christmas. She's just dead as far as intimacy. Am I wrong to expect her to be turned on every now and then?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A woman can lose their drive. But are you 100% positive after this second child that she has not worried about what she is "missing out on" and is fantasizing about someone outside of the house.

Some of the MAP techniques really do work. One that worked well in my situations was social validation. Not to rub it in their face, but some women just want their guy more and will compete strongly for him if they feel others desire him too.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

I can believe that pregnancy changes a woman's body and her perspective on wanting to have sex. But couldn't a wife make time for her husband once a week? I'm not asking for it every day or even every other day. I'm concerned because there is zero desire. She hasn't let me touch her since Christmas. That's what I'm struggling with. 




Anon Pink said:


> Pregnancy absolutely screws up our hormonal balance and just because the pregnancy is over doesn't mean the hormones go back to what they used to be.
> 
> So first line of inquiry should be to her OB/GYN. Go with her. Tell the doc she has zero interest in sex at all. I was the same way after my first and had no idea what was going on. While she is there, she should also have her thyroid checked.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

jd08 said:


> Not on BC. My "expectations" are once a week.
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Ok, fair enough. But let's be clear on what you're asking, because that's important. You asked if you're wrong to expect her to be turned on, and the answer to that is yes. Sexuality, particularly for women, is very fluid and tends to ebb and flow. You are well within reason, however, to want an intimate relationship with your wife, and once a week is more than reasonable. It's reasonable to ask her to participate in sexual relations, even if she's not so turned on, as part of a loving relationship. I get that you probably don't want duty sex, but participating in sex that you're not all that into isn't necessarily duty sex if it's part of a loving relationship. And sometimes participating leads to enjoyment, been there. It could just be a phase for her.....how does she feel about her own body after kids? A lot of women don't like their post baby bodies. How is your fitness? How is the division of labor in your house?
At this point I'd probably tell her that you understand she may not be into it right now, but you miss her and want to know if there's anything more she needs from you. If that doesn't work you two need to talk to somebody, because communication is key here. I'm sure someone on this site will say I don't know what I'm talking about and you should tell your wife to put out or get out (not that you would, you seem much more highly evolved then some of the people here) but I've had these phases myself and now have a good sex life, so take it as you will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

I think you are right about the control issue. To me that is driving it. She likes to have a controlled environment by nature and so therefore if she doesn't want to have sex and I do then she is losing an element of control by giving in. Hence she never gives in. I think there are underlying mental issues but this sex problem has been persistent since she became pregnant this last time. Of course when she wanted to get pregnant I could have sex three times a week with her. Then she turned off the sex and started acting like this. 



treyvion said:


> Did she "hear" something from another female which made her settle into this pattern? Has she been influenced?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jd08 said:


> I can believe that pregnancy changes a woman's body and her perspective on wanting to have sex. But couldn't a wife make time for her husband once a week? I'm not asking for it every day or even every other day. I'm concerned because there is zero desire. She hasn't let me touch her since Christmas. That's what I'm struggling with.
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she is not interested in sex, she doesn't want to be touched. I felt the same way. I did not want to be touched at all! It's a bad way to be. On the bright side, she is trying by giving you HJs, though it's not enough.

How has her body changed and how does she feel about it? Does she exercise at all? If not, she needs to. Does she take care of herself in other areas? Does she shower and put on make up every day like she used to? If she isn't taking care of herself she may be in a low grade depression which is common after childbirth.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

With two young ones in the house, I do NOT recommend ANY MMSLP bull ****e! She is going through something difficult, be the leader to assist and support as she figures it out. Be a partner and insist you work together to figure it out. But don't go alpha or she'll be more likely to end the HJs too because she so angry at you for going out while she takes care of the kids!


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

No way could I accept a HJ when I wanted sex. I even have a hard time keeping it up for sex if I want a BJ. Accepting a poor substitute like a crappy HJ would make me feel like crap, most likely just get up and leave the room. Thanks but no thanks. I can do that better myself.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

If you don't mind me asking what did you and your husband do during this time that you didn't want to be touched? Did you have duty sex for him? Did you do other things? What was his response?



Anon Pink said:


> If she is not interested in sex, she doesn't want to be touched. I felt the same way. I did not want to be touched at all! It's a bad way to be. On the bright side, she is trying by giving you HJs, though it's not enough.
> 
> How has her body changed and how does she feel about it? Does she exercise at all? If not, she needs to. Does she take care of herself in other areas? Does she shower and put on make up every day like she used to? If she isn't taking care of herself she may be in a low grade depression which is common after childbirth.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I remember your mentioning in one of your other threads (and I think you did again in this one) that she was certainly anxious enough to have frequent sex when she was trying to get pregnant. And probably only because there was a goal of trying to get pregnant. I thought at the time that your problem wasn't going away after the baby was born and it appears to have gotten worse. 

Becoming a mom does unfortunately affect a number of women when it comes to sex. Their attraction to their husband diminishes or entirely goes away. So she doesn't want to be touched any longer unless she's trying to get pregnant. If you decide to have a third child she will likely be very cooperative until she's pregnant again. 

I hope she agrees to get real help. Because it's a real problem.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Openminded said:


> If you decide to have a third child she will likely be very cooperative until she's pregnant again.


Get snipped....don't tell her.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

Already have, but she knows about it. 



WorkingOnMe said:


> Get snipped....don't tell her.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jd08 said:


> If you don't mind me asking what did you and your husband do during this time that you didn't want to be touched? Did you have duty sex for him? Did you do other things? What was his response?
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh boy.... First of all, it was 28 years ago, there was no internet and no sex education except men's locker room and cosmopolitan magazine that didn't exactly warn pregnant women about hormonal changes! Second, my h was working 6 days a week, 12 hour days and we lived in a state where neither of us knew anyone! It was a perfect storm for sexlessness!

So, I did nothing for him. During the pregnancy, he started to grow distant, rarely touched me, totally indifferent to the swelling ankles and aches and pains. By the time the baby was born we were already estranged!

Add to that, I had a 23 hour labor and a 4 the degree tear! Not only was I never having sex again I was never going to eat solid food again! YKWIM?

Afterwards...get the F off of me and don't come near me you SOB!

I frankly don't remember having sex again until the second baby was born. I remember lots of fights, I remember one fight in which I took off my clothes and laid on the bed and screamed this is all I mean to you, have at it! And he didn't walk away but I don't remember what exactly happened.

So... Good times....

With baby two, we were back in our home town and our stress was less. I wanted to have sex again as soon as we could, thinking the sooner we resumed sex, the better our relationship would be. I knew that he needed and wanted sex, but I never felt like it was me he wanted, just sex and I was the closest available woman.

A lot of women report feeling like this when their husband sex drive far out paces hers. It's a catch 22 for men. If you don't ask, it's not happening but each time you ask it practically reinforces her belief that you just want sex, it's not me you want.

Check her love languages take the emotional needs Questionaire find out how to frame your desire for HER so that she hears that message. 

I have a much much better marriage now! 29 years and we have sex 3-5 times a week...usually insisted by me!


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## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Hi JD08
I hear you on all fronts. I've been there and done that. All of it. When we were trying to get pregnant the first time, I was also able to mount her several times a day; multiple times a week UNTIL she found out she was pregnant. Sex stopped instantly once she finds out she's pregnant. With the first pregnancy, we had sex 4 times during the entire 9 months and even that only happened in the last 2 months. Then baby is born and it's another 8 month dry spell. Followed by a 3 month and then a 13 month dry spell. Then we have another baby and it's much of the same as the first time around. 
Anyway, I'm currently sitting on my 6th or 7th month dry spell. I've been following some of the advice given by TAM members and, while I'm not 100% certain, things SEEM to be looking up. But I'm skeptical since the dry spells generally outlasts the "wet spells" lol. 
Things are tough in these kinds of situations and I wish I had some concrete advice for you or wish I could point you in the right direction but alas, I can only offer you support. As soon as something eventually pays off, not just a promise from her side to try, then I'll post an advice or 2. But for now, I just wish you all the best. 
PS: I know that it can be hard, but try not taking it out on the kids. One turns into such a horrible person virtually over night and before you know it, you're shouting at the kids for any and everything. I've got a hold on that one now at least. My kids notice it and even the wife commented on it to my mom a few weeks ago. 
Hang in there and take the advice from these seasoned veterans on TAM. Most of them offers some excellent advice. 

Good luck JD08
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Oh boy.... First of all, it was 28 years ago, there was no internet and no sex education except men's locker room and cosmopolitan magazine that didn't exactly warn pregnant women about hormonal changes! Second, my h was working 6 days a week, 12 hour days and we lived in a state where neither of us knew anyone! It was a perfect storm for sexlessness!
> 
> So, I did nothing for him. During the pregnancy, he started to grow distant, rarely touched me, totally indifferent to the swelling ankles and aches and pains. By the time the baby was born we were already estranged!
> 
> ...


In other words you neglected your husband and marriage and even now you refuse to be accountable for it.


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## secret10 (Feb 12, 2014)

I can relate to just being 'touched out' as another said in this thread. When you are caring for little ones you are constantly being touched and you give all you can to them and at the end of the day you're ready to just be left alone. Not saying that is okay, but I understand that feeling. Breastfeeding releases lots of oxytocin, she may have got lots of feel good hormones just with that during the day and just not feel like she needs more. I also found while breastfeeding babies, I've breastfed our many babies for nearly 20 years combined, it is harder to turned on maybe it's more that it is harder to relax really. Now my dh nurses and I have no trouble getting turned on because the conditioning is all different. I think that if there aren't other problems coming into play, and it's just that she can't get turned on it may just take way longer to get her to relax. Maybe you should just work on the relaxing part without adding sex for now and basically teach her to look forward to your helping her relax. However that may be. I liked it when my dh just washed and brushed my hair, or came into the bathroom just to scrub my back, or gave a foot massage at bedtime. 

Like others have said, there may be other issues involved and you should be paying close attention to what those things could be. Birth does mess with a girl, especially if the experiences weren't as expected. 

If you want to respect her Christian perspective, you could present this...
1 Corinthians 7:1-5
Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me:
It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 


Best of luck.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

secret10 said:


> Maybe you should just work on the relaxing part without adding sex for now and basically teach her to look forward to your helping her relax. However that may be. I liked it when my dh just washed and brushed my hair, or came into the bathroom just to scrub my back, or gave a foot massage at bedtime.


In love with this train of thought!


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Pandakiss said:


> Same thing happened to me. I was just touched out. I could not stand any touch and it was kinda skin crawler so sad. My husband had requirements of sex 4-6 times a week and oral at least 3 times a week.
> 
> The thought was like uggghh. I just did what I had to do and had a talk with myself. It went like "self, you loved sex a year ago, so what's the problem??", "oh I don't know, I just don't like it now...", "well to damn bad, self, you got married to this dude and had kids, you remember years ago that talk we had about sex in the marriage and sex leaves, so does he???, "well yea....", "do you want to be alone with 4 kids...??", "HELL NO".
> 
> ...



My hat goes off to you.

You took care of hubby's needs as your own, even though you didn't want to. You did this out of love?

You are a role model and amazing.:smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

secret10 said:


> I can relate to just being 'touched out' as another said in this thread. When you are caring for little ones you are constantly being touched and you give all you can to them and at the end of the day you're ready to just be left alone. Not saying that is okay, but I understand that feeling. Breastfeeding releases lots of oxytocin, she may have got lots of feel good hormones just with that during the day and just not feel like she needs more. I also found while breastfeeding babies, I've breastfed our many babies for nearly 20 years combined, it is harder to turned on maybe it's more that it is harder to relax really. Now my dh nurses and I have no trouble getting turned on because the conditioning is all different. I think that if there aren't other problems coming into play, and it's just that she can't get turned on it may just take way longer to get her to relax. Maybe you should just work on the relaxing part without adding sex for now and basically teach her to look forward to your helping her relax. However that may be. I liked it when my dh just washed and brushed my hair, or came into the bathroom just to scrub my back, or gave a foot massage at bedtime.
> 
> Like others have said, there may be other issues involved and you should be paying close attention to what those things could be. Birth does mess with a girl, especially if the experiences weren't as expected.
> 
> ...



Exactly.:smthumbup:

Sadly, today, many don't care about their other halves needs and its only about them. No one is taking care of their spouses needs as their own, only themselves. And as a result, many posts here on TAM........and people wonder why?

Being married is also about doing things you may not want to do. There is some sacrifice involved but out of love and not duty or pity. Wrong reasons to be married then.

As much as having kids is a blessing and fantastic, that still is no excuse to deny sex to the hubby. There is the internet and finding out the hormonal side effects of having kids, before you decide to have them. No excuses and saying I have kids as an excuse. Women today know having kids changes their hormones, and that excuse is null at this point.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

This happened to me as well when my children were young. I remember it taking all the patience I had every day to make it to bedtime without losing my carp because I was SO weary of being touched an hung on and needed. The breastfeeding years were the worst for it because your breasts, primarily sexual up to that point, are now someone's dinner and they leak and hurt and are needed instead of wanted.

Me personally, I didn't feel better and like myself until in was done breastfeeding. I needed my estrogen to return to normal and I needed to stop whipping them out on demand. 

Having said all that I don't find your expectation of once per week to be unreasonable. I hope, like in my case, her sex drive will return soon when she is done breastfeeding and your youngest becomes a bit more independent.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Anon - mmslp is not about being that alpha. 

I don't have the answers, but the fact that wife won't even let him touch her screams issues that will destroy their marriage. And cowing to her whims will make it worse and him feel worse.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

So when did you start feeling like you wanted to have sex again, not just to make him happy but for yourself as well? 

I'm still struggling with the fact that I do everything I can to make her life easier and all I get in return are some handjobs. I don't want those anymore. I want to have an adult sexual relationship with my wife. I could do handjobs myself. 

I give the foot massages, the back rubs, pick up dinner so she doesn't have to cook, pay all the bills, bring her breakfast in bed, assume childcare roles on the weekend at least. What is it going to take??




Anon Pink said:


> Oh boy.... First of all, it was 28 years ago, there was no internet and no sex education except men's locker room and cosmopolitan magazine that didn't exactly warn pregnant women about hormonal changes! Second, my h was working 6 days a week, 12 hour days and we lived in a state where neither of us knew anyone! It was a perfect storm for sexlessness!
> 
> So, I did nothing for him. During the pregnancy, he started to grow distant, rarely touched me, totally indifferent to the swelling ankles and aches and pains. By the time the baby was born we were already estranged!
> 
> ...


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

though anon will blast me, mmslp. you are doing too much stuff and letting her off the hook. I would be pi$$ed, if it is as you say.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Jd - those are good questions - are those questions you have asked your wife or are you trying to keep the peace?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jd08 said:


> So when did you start feeling like you wanted to have sex again, not just to make him happy but for yourself as well?
> 
> I'm still struggling with the fact that I do everything I can to make her life easier and all I get in return are some handjobs. I don't want those anymore. I want to have an adult sexual relationship with my wife. I could do handjobs myself.
> 
> I give the foot massages, the back rubs, pick up dinner so she doesn't have to cook, pay all the bills, bring her breakfast in bed, assume childcare roles on the weekend at least. What is it going to take??


Wow, I didn't know all this was happening.

My first thought was, why not ask her?

My second thought is, you are putting your wife on a throne here and while that works on occasion you may be creating your own monster. 

You see my husband never ever ever did any of that! Did I mention ever? Now he will, but back then, cave man sensitivity and I hated it!

So you feel convinced that her lack of sex drive is because of the changes with the baby and that it has nothing to do with your relationship or your general attractiveness to her?

What do you think?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> though anon will blast me, mmslp. you are doing too much stuff and letting her off the hook. I would be pi$$ed, if it is as you say.


Allow me to correct you? With added info is does rather seem like he is trying to nice his way into her panties. 

But!

She did just have a baby so that super complicates things!

ETA : that didn't hurt now did it?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Do you think she would feel sexual desire for another man or has she gone off sex completely?

TAM has many threads about sexless marriages. For some the misery goes on and on. They count how many times per year. Some years are zero. Some times the advice is to divorce but some will not for the sake of the children.

It is not uncommon for resentment to rise until at last the husband will no longer initiate either. Sometimes the wife will then try to rescue their relationship with engaged duty sex. This may restore intimacy or not, depending on their chemistry. Biologically she may be done with you. Subliminally her genes may wish for a new guy.

Becoming more attractive to your spouse can make you the new guy. Work out. Lose the fat around your waist. Gain muscle. Be decisive. Be cheerful. If you have social occassions during which you interact with other women who smile at you, affirm your worth, chances are she'll want to have sex to re-stake her claim.

Does your wife love you? If so, how?

Do you go to church with her?

Talk may help but the communication you have
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

I don't feel convinced that the lack of sex drive is due to the baby but it's the first thing that pops into my head which is why I framed the discussion the way I did.

I don't know - she claims she's attracted to me. She will of course accept all of the non-sexual affection that I give her though she rarely initiates any of that that on her own. 

I'm not overweight or anything, I work out 5 days a week. I have a job, don't drink, smoke, go to bars, etc etc. I'm at a loss and considering that maybe she really isn't attracted to me for whatever reason or maybe she's just become asexual. 




Anon Pink said:


> Wow, I didn't know all this was happening.
> 
> My first thought was, why not ask her?
> 
> ...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jd08 said:


> So when did you start feeling like you wanted to have sex again, not just to make him happy but for yourself as well?
> 
> I'm still struggling with the fact that I do everything I can to make her life easier and all I get in return are some handjobs. I don't want those anymore. I want to have an adult sexual relationship with my wife. I could do handjobs myself.


Stop accepting them. They don't make you feel good, in fact quite the opposite. Be clear why you are not accepting them.



> I give the foot massages, the back rubs, pick up dinner so she doesn't have to cook, pay all the bills, bring her breakfast in bed, assume childcare roles on the weekend at least. What is it going to take??


I think you need to start looking after yourself a bit and quit some of this. I see some covert contracts here that are causing you resentment. Quit doing stuff expecting her to put out because of it. Do it because it needs to be done. I have to say that I would not be too interested in giving her foot and back massages and would be pretty clear why that it to her.

Create some "her time" by grabbing the kids and heading out the park or something for a couple of hours. Tell her to relax and then go have fun with your kids. Then turn around and make some relaxing time for yourself. Get out and do some of your hobbies. Make sure the time is roughly equal, but do stuff for you.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

One thing is clear, and you need to get this through your head: if what you're doing isn't working, doing more of it won't work either. And doing it better won't work. 

And when a person's actions don't match their words, believe their actions. So far you've done all the wrong things and you've got what you've got. Whether you explore other options to see if they work or keep doing what you know doesn't work is all up to you.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Has she ever been enthusiastic about sex?

Before kids, my husband and I would have sex 2 or 3 times a day. Not every week, but often. Now, with two kids, it's more like 4 times a week. 

If you didn't have a high point to fall from, that's a problem.


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## LVLOVER711 (Oct 27, 2013)

One thing you and your wife might want to consider talking to her doctor is she might have PPD. When a women is pregnant and gives birth there are major changes happening to her body that men would never understand. PPD is very common and can be treated with medication to help with depression. I can tell you my last pregnancy and birth I lost all of my libido. It took time for it to come back. Honestly ask her if she is depressed and go from there. That is what it sounds like


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jd08 said:


> I don't feel convinced that the lack of sex drive is due to the baby but it's the first thing that pops into my head which is why I framed the discussion the way I did.
> 
> I don't know - she claims she's attracted to me. She will of course accept all of the non-sexual affection that I give her though she rarely initiates any of that that on her own.
> 
> I'm not overweight or anything, I work out 5 days a week. I have a job, don't drink, smoke, go to bars, etc etc. I'm at a loss and considering that maybe she really isn't attracted to me for whatever reason or maybe she's just become asexual.


Okay, that makes sense. Let's be honest, it is doubtful this thread is going to give you an ah ha moment. But if you're open to trying something different, you might get something different just not over night.

The one thing that sticks out is that while yo have been attentive to her, as you point out in your posts, she has not been attentive to you. You say she accepts your affection but does not offer her affection. That might mean something, especially if that is new for her. But then again, when there is a power struggle over sex, the person who doesn't want sex also shies away from affection in case it might lead to sex.

I asked, but you didn't answer, how does she feel about her post baby body!

Also, what kinds of conversations have you two had about her lack of desire and you feeling rejected?


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

Pandakiss said:


> Same thing happened to me. I was just touched out. I could not stand any touch and it was kinda skin crawler so sad. My husband had requirements of sex 4-6 times a week and oral at least 3 times a week.
> 
> The thought was like uggghh. *I just did what I had to do and had a talk with myself. *It went like "self, you loved sex a year ago, so what's the problem??", "oh I don't know, I just don't like it now...", "well to damn bad, self, you got married to this dude and had kids, you remember years ago that talk we had about sex in the marriage and sex leaves, so does he???, "well yea....", "do you want to be alone with 4 kids...??", "HELL NO".
> 
> ...


I have a 4 month old. A couple of months ago (I think) my drive began to go up and down. Like Panda, I talked to myself, but just in a different way. I kept telling myself "he needs sex to to feel loved, he needs sex to feel loved". 

However, were it not for TAM, I would probably just have given in to the low desire and just not had sex, thinking this is typical after having a baby. Maybe a lot of wives just give in to the feelings and shut things off because they don't know/haven't thought about a different way of handling it. You have all these posts from women on TAM who agree that a sexless marriage just doesn't cut it. Have you thought about printing out some threads with posts from women who acknowledge that sexless will severly harm the marriage? (I am assuming you have already tried to tell her that yourself and nothing changed). Even if you have not, and just need a way to start the dialogue, then just go ahead and print the posts and tell her "honey, I really need you to just take a look at this issue from another perspective from some women who have been there."

ICBW, but I think some of these situations happen because women just dont' know what to do when this happens, and don't know even how it affects their husband. They just think "I don't want to be touched, so that's that." I have a hard time wrapping my mind around a woman actually deciding she's not having sex anymore and thinking that will pass muster. But if she test the waters of sexless marriage and see that there are no consequences, she might not ever consider your needs again.

PLEASE NOTE I AM TALKING ABOUT A MAN WHO LOVES, CHERISHES AND CARES FOR HIS WIFE AND DEMONSTRATES THIS IN SEXUAL AS WELL AS NON-SEXUAL WAYS! Not being a doormat (it nothing less sexy than a man willing to be a pushover), but not acting like an insensitive neanderthal jerk either. 
Just my 2 cents.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

committed4ever said:


> I have a hard time wrapping my mind around a woman actually deciding she's not having sex anymore and thinking that will pass muster. But if she test the waters of sexless marriage and see that there are no consequences, she might not ever consider your needs again.


Interesting. Yes. I can see that happening. She thinks, no way will he be ok with this. But she tries it anyway, and instead of getting a bunch of flack or getting dumped she gets foot massages and back rubs. What's not to like?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Interesting. Yes. I can see that happening. She thinks, no way will he be ok with this. But she tries it anyway, and instead of getting a bunch of flack or getting dumped she gets foot massages and back rubs. What's not to like?


I suspect it is gradual. That is, she does not initially think there will be no sex ever again. Rather, she puts it off so that there is no sex that night. And then again the next night. Then a week passes, then a month with no real consequences. Before either realizes it, no sex becomes the norm - and why not? Everything is the same except without the sex.


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## Counterfit (Feb 2, 2014)

soccermom2three said:


> I agree. She's not going to tell you straight to your face that she's not attracted to you even if you ask her. She doesn't want to hurt your feelings.


1. I can assure you that she remains "Attracted To" the original poster's income and financial support.....
2. She does not give a damn about the original posters feelings - she used the original poster.

Let's speak in plain and simple terms......the Original Poster is screwed.......and not in a "Good Way". His wife wanted to to have children but was also smart enough to know that having children requires significant financial support over many years......so she found a beta male provider and she "pretended" to enjoy having sex with him. 

He, the beta male provider / original poster was thinking with his "Little Head" and fell "In Love" with her and decided he never wanted this great sex to end......so he asked her to marry him (thinking this would ensure a continual, never ending supply of the great sex he was getting :rofl::rofl

Now that she has the children that she desired she can stop pretending that she enjoyed having sex with the original poster because there are no longer any consequences for her to refuse him sex - the Family Court system would destroy him financially should he cheat or sue her for divorce. 

So yet another man's life is ruined by getting married............she won, he lost.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I agree counter....

This is mmslp country. or nmmng.


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## LVLOVER711 (Oct 27, 2013)

Counterfit said:


> 1. I can assure you that she remains "Attracted To" the original poster's income and financial support.....
> 2. She does not give a damn about the original posters feelings - she used the original poster.
> 
> Let's speak in plain and simple terms......the Original Poster is screwed.......and not in a "Good Way". His wife wanted to to have children but was also smart enough to know that having children requires significant financial support over many years......so she found a beta male provider and she "pretended" to enjoy having sex with him.
> ...


This is your opinion. No man will ever know what it feels like to be pregnant and give birth and deal with a variety of issues.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

He wasn't a beta. He was a man providing for his family. There is nothing wrong with that. He counters it with some MAP techniques. Not to rely upon her for physical validation, get it outside the house. Not saying for him to have penetrative sex with other ladies, but many women will wake up quickly when they realize their husband is desired by others.

Much of the MAP techniques was for rebuilding attraction in a male who had lost it. I think it works for this. Not being an over all ass hole to a female, not always being in charge with a female. But these traits which are desireable in a female to begin with.

And how to build and maintain and take care of your attraction side. Being rejected repeatedly and being looked in a diminished light does not help you. Get that from somewhere else.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

LVLOVER711 said:


> This is your opinion. No man will ever know what it feels like to be pregnant and give birth and deal with a variety of issues.


What does a man not being able to give birth have to do with living in a sexless marriage? Unless it is consensual it is extremely selfish and unreasonble on the offending spouse's part. Are you saying giving birth is an excuse? (I have given birth, btw).


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

LVLOVER711 said:


> This is your opinion. No man will ever know what it feels like to be pregnant and give birth and deal with a variety of issues.


Just like no woman knows what it's like to have a penis and a ton of testestrone flowing through their body.


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## LVLOVER711 (Oct 27, 2013)

committed4ever said:


> What does a man not being able to give birth have to do with living in a sexless marriage? Unless it is consensual it is extremely selfish and unreasonble on the offending spouse's part. Are you saying giving birth is an excuse? (I have given birth, btw).


I am defintely saying it could be a valid excuse. I don't think that it is selfish at all if the OP's wife is dealing with PPD or hormonal issues due to being pregnant and giving birth. I have dealt with this and have seen many women deal with this as well. The last thing on there minds is sex.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

LVLOVER711 said:


> I am defintely saying it could be a valid excuse. I don't think that it is selfish at all if the OP's wife is dealing with PPD or hormonal issues due to being pregnant and giving birth. I have dealt with this and have seen many women deal with this as well. The last thing on there minds is sex.



That's really no excuse for emotionally abusing your husband.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

LVLOVER711 said:


> I am defintely saying it could be a valid excuse. I don't think that it is selfish at all if the OP's wife is dealing with PPD or hormonal issues due to being pregnant and giving birth. I have dealt with this and have seen many women deal with this as well. The last thing on there minds is sex.


Yes, post partum. But post partum doesn't last forever. If it does, then help is needed. The OP Ii believe stated it lasted at one point for 13 months and he didn't say that his wife has gotten help. I received a TON of post partum information, warnings, and admonishment to call my Dr if certain PP symptoms presented themselves. And at my PP checkup, I was grilled again about any such symptoms being present.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

She doesn't feel great about her body and has told me so. She doesn't exercise. She's not overweight IMO but doesn't like the "extra"
and the stretch marks from the latest baby. I have no problem with it of course and have told her so. 



Anon Pink said:


> Okay, that makes sense. Let's be honest, it is doubtful this thread is going to give you an ah ha moment. But if you're open to trying something different, you might get something different just not over night.
> 
> The one thing that sticks out is that while yo have been attentive to her, as you point out in your posts, she has not been attentive to you. You say she accepts your affection but does not offer her affection. That might mean something, especially if that is new for her. But then again, when there is a power struggle over sex, the person who doesn't want sex also shies away from affection in case it might lead to sex.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Women know that after having kids, their hormones will change and sometimes that means little to no sex drive. If they realize it is affecting their marriage in a negative way, they should do something about it, instead of nothing.

Blaming this on having kids does not wash. She didn't need to have kids, right? No one forced her, right?

If she is insecure about her body, stretch marks, after having the kids, then she can either eat right and go on a treadmill at home, or she can do nothing. At some point, she will either have enough and do something about it or never will.

If the LD issue persists over a long time, she can go to the family Dr. and meds might do the trick, to get her hormones back in balance, but she has to want to do this.

I hope this is only short and temporary in the big scheme of things and not 10+ years later.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I don't think anyone is saying this behavior is fine - just that there is empathy for how she might feel with the changes that come while breastfeeding and having small children.

It's not okay or acceptable. It's doing damage to her marriage. She is giving him HJ - in her mind that's probably something accommodating she's doing for OP.

My point was that I remember feeling that way but my sex drive did recover itself. This needs to be fixed but hopefully it's a temporary set of circumstances.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jd08 said:


> She doesn't feel great about her body and has told me so. She doesn't exercise. She's not overweight IMO but doesn't like the "extra"
> and the stretch marks from the latest baby. I have no problem with it of course and have told her so.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Tell me about the conversations you two have had regarding sex and her lack of drive?

Can you talk a little bit about the conversation that lead up to her suggesting a marriage counselor?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Also, would it be possible to get someone to keep the kids for 1/2 hour 3 times a week so you two can take a simple walk together? If not, could you take the kids with you while you both walk together. Getting her moving will help with her energy level and mood. It will also increase her heart rate while she is with you, which is always a good reaction to have in your wife.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

You mentioned that you go to the gym 5 times a week but she doesn't exercise. Does she have the same opportunity to go to the gym but chooses not to?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

I don't think those opportunities are available during the week. But she has workout tapes she could do at home if she had any free time. Id watch the kids if she wanted to go at night or on weekends but she doesn't really want to. I go at 5:30 am before everyone is up so I'm not gone when I'm needed. 




lifeistooshort said:


> You mentioned that you go to the gym 5 times a week but she doesn't exercise. Does she have the same opportunity to go to the gym but chooses not to?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

The conversations usually end in fights. I have so much resentment built up. I usually start out calm until I start hearing her say things like "I don't know what's wrong" and "I don't know how to fix it." Then I get irritated and things go downhill from there. She has no insight into why she feels this way other than to say it's because she's breastfeeding. Again, understandable to an extent but not to this extent. 

She just suggests counseling usually during our fights. She'll say "we need to talk to someone." That's about it. Not much to it. 




Anon Pink said:


> Tell me about the conversations you two have had regarding sex and her lack of drive?
> 
> Can you talk a little bit about the conversation that lead up to her suggesting a marriage counselor?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

I don't know about covert contracts. I consider it living up to my end of the marriage bargain. Maybe that's a contract but I'm trying to be a good husband and provider. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect minimal amounts of intimacy from my wife. The whole part of not being desired by her is what is making this so difficult. 




Tall Average Guy said:


> Stop accepting them. They don't make you feel good, in fact quite the opposite. Be clear why you are not accepting them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Counterfit (Feb 2, 2014)

treyvion said:


> He wasn't a beta. He was a man providing for his family. There is nothing wrong with that. He counters it with some MAP techniques. Not to rely upon her for physical validation, get it outside the house. Not saying for him to have penetrative sex with other ladies, but many women will wake up quickly when they realize their husband is desired by others.
> 
> Much of the MAP techniques was for rebuilding attraction in a male who had lost it. I think it works for this. Not being an over all ass hole to a female, not always being in charge with a female. But these traits which are desireable in a female to begin with.
> 
> And how to build and maintain and take care of your attraction side. Being rejected repeatedly and being looked in a diminished light does not help you. Get that from somewhere else.


Actually he is the very definition of a beta male.

His only way to attract a women was to offer her financial stabilty and security - in exchange for those things she granted him sex and she accepted his "boringness". 

This exchange happens all of the time - as women who have been used and dumped by the various "Alpha Male / Bad Boys types they love so much to be with age they get worried because the clock is ticking so they scope out a boring beta male and make the transaction discussed above.......of course it is dressed up as "Soul Mates Having Finally Found Each Other.....or some other type of dribble......)

Or in the case with the original poster his wife most likely never enjoyed sex, or at least never enjoyed sex with a beta male - she simply tolerated it until she not longer had to per my original post on this thread. She wanted babies and the money to pay for them.......so she played the beta male and won.

The bottom line is that the original poster is a beta male.....frankly most married men are beta males because they voluntarily surrendered their freedom via the Contract of Marriage they signed.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

You sound like my wifee and I for 14 years of marriage, until I came to TAM, learned a lot and took the 5 love languages quiz together. That was the turning point for her and of course she finally had enough and wanted to be fit, hense the ongoing weight loss due to healthy eating, daily calorie intake and soon to be exercise at the local gym. And we don't even have kids yet. But your similarities were close to ours. Wish you the best on this because it will be a toughie.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

Here we go with the alpha/beta penis measuring contest. Please don't bring this crap onto my thread. I'm only interested in realistic advice. 




Counterfit said:


> Actually he is the very definition of a beta male.
> 
> His only way to attract a women was to offer her financial stabilty and security - in exchange for those things she granted him sex and she accepted his "boringness".
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jd08 said:


> The conversations usually end in fights. I have so much resentment built up. I usually start out calm until I start hearing her say things like "I don't know what's wrong" and "I don't know how to fix it." Then I get irritated and things go downhill from there. She has no insight into why she feels this way other than to say it's because she's breastfeeding. Again, understandable to an extent but not to this extent.
> 
> She just suggests counseling usually during our fights. She'll say "we need to talk to someone." That's about it. Not much to it.
> 
> ...



Alright then now we're getting somewhere. She is telling you the truth. I'm sure of it. She doesn't know why she doesn't have a sex drive anymore. She thinks there is something wrong with her.

First, get your resentment under control because you are only hurting yourself! Second be her partner! Help her come to terms with her changed body, changed role in life, lack of freedom, lax of free time...these all weigh a new mother down pretty badly. Usually we are so excited to have a baby the reality is a slap upside the head we were not prepared for.

Send here these links and ask her to read them.
Sex After Pregnancy Facts at WomansDay.com - Sex After Childbirth - Woman's Day

Sex & Marriage After Baby: Decreased Sex Drive After Baby

Losing My Sex Drive After Having Kids (and How I Got it Back) | Raising Kvell

Your Libido Postpartum: Lost That Loving Feeling?

In most of these articles, it mentions that it is a good idea to go ahead and have sex with your husband even if you're not in the mood. So it might be good for your wife to hear this idea from outside sources.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Counterfit said:


> Actually he is the very definition of a beta male.
> 
> His only way to attract a women was to offer her financial stabilty and security - in exchange for those things she granted him sex and she accepted his "boringness".
> 
> ...


Sounds like somebody has to take his Wittle winky and go pway wif anottah fwend.

Seriously counterfeit, your "advice" is counter to what decent people think and decent people do. So, which banned poster are you? That's a lot of anger for someone with only 8 posts...


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## secret10 (Feb 12, 2014)

It sounds like you are being very sweet and understanding to her and doing a lot for her. I hate to say that you are doing too much, but maybe you are. I'm sure you took a psychology class in school. You are rewarding her for her behavior by doing more in hopes of making it better but it's not likely to work that way. I think maybe dropping some of those things, most of them except for the ones that involve touching. I say that, and breakfast in bed is heavenly and all but think about it. If the part of her day that she looks forward to most is your physical attention, the back rub or foot rub, then it leaves the door open for more. She's got you in a tough spot. Even if you change what you are doing, it's likely to get worse before better because now she will be expecting such things.

As far as the baby body things go, tell her that her stretch marks are beautiful and they mean that she endured something to give you both a precious child. Tell her that the extra just makes her all the softer and that you love it. Tell her that you value her and the changes that have occurred. 

I also agree that even other women noticing you may make her think twice about what she is doing. I hate saying that, because of course you wouldn't want it to be anything more than get her attention, nothing so far as to be destructive.

Sorry that you are going through this.


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## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

LVLOVER711 said:


> This is your opinion. No man will ever know what it feels like to be pregnant and give birth and deal with a variety of issues.


And if a woman decides that she wants to get pregnant and give birth, she needs to understand that #1 rule of responsible parenting is providing a stable home life for your child. That means maintaining a harmonious, happy marriage. Ignoring your husband's very reasonable needs (he's asking for sex once a week, for pete's sake!) is deliberately setting up a rocky marriage....and failing your children.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

daffodilly said:


> And if a woman decides that she wants to get pregnant and give birth, she needs to understand that #1 rule of responsible parenting is providing a stable home life for your child. That means maintaining a harmonious, happy marriage. Ignoring your husband's very reasonable needs (he's asking for sex once a week, for pete's sake!) is deliberately setting up a rocky marriage....and failing your children.


She is not ignoring her husbands needs. She simply isn't putting enough effort into meeting them.

Does this thread have to devolve into the bitterman's circus?


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## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> She is not ignoring her husbands needs. She simply isn't putting enough effort into meeting them.
> 
> Does this thread have to devolve into the bitterman's circus?


Actually, I'm not a bitter man, I'm a woman who's given birth a few times 

I've seen many of OP's threads and have found him to be pretty reasonable with this issue overall. I feel her efforts are VERY minimal...a way to throw him a bone that she is trying, (but not really). She must know he wants to be intimate with HER, not her hand. To tell your spouse that you DON'T want them to touch you, AT ALL....you have to know that is hurtful, no matter what state of mind you're in. 

OP, if she says she doesn't know why this is happening, or how to fix it, then take the lead on it. Make an appointment with her OB/GYN, find a qualified counsellor yourself since she's willing to try MC. If she's serious about wanting to address this, she shouldn't refuse.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LVLOVER711 said:


> This is your opinion. No man will ever know what it feels like to be pregnant and give birth and deal with a variety of issues.


Geez, that's just the biggest cop out / red herring ever.

The problem is not her issues per se. The problem is that she has assessed the situation and decided cutting off sex is an acceptable means of getting whatever it is she wants. She could go to her OB for help, get a licensed mental health professional (who is also a Christian, if she insists on that), etc.

But she chose this other path, and the pain it causes him doesn't faze her. Basically what she's saying is "if you don't like it, tough. I'm going to make things as easy for me as I can - period". Her convenience is at the top of her mind - very selfish.

It bears repeating that the breastfeeding is nearly done. The new baby sleeps through the night and has for several months. The OP has been stepping it up, and his wife's demands have been decreasing. Yet, the sex situation is still worsening.

There's been too much "carrot" and not enough "stick". Conditions might not be perfect, but they never are. At this point, she needs to push through her issues and meet his needs to some extent. He's hurting and still doing for her. She needs to be willing to hurt or go without more so that he hurts less.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LVLOVER711 said:


> The last thing on there minds is sex.


Maybe so, but that's only an excuse as long as you are truly oblivious to your husband's needs. Once her husband has told her that the sex is sorely lacking and he's starting to hurt, then it's on her mind (because they just talked about it).

Basically, once he's told her that the sex is seriously lacking, there are only two possible outcomes. One, she starts stepping up the sex (either by having more sex, or getting professional help if she just cannot bear to do that). Two, she hears him and chooses to not meet his needs anyways.

Keep in mind that it doesn't appear she is serious about getting help. Her one idea is to talk to an unlicensed Christian counselor. If she gets one who actually thumps the Bible and tells her she needs to meet his need, most likely she will reject that and shop for opinions until she finds one who will validate her course of action.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

JD - I read page one and two and skimmed the others.

Many men on here, me included, can relate to you. We all accept that the first three months after child birth are tough; night feeds etc. Its tough and tiring. We men do as much as we can to help and generally accept that we are relegated to the bottom of the pile.

However - before baby came along we were a loving couple who made time for each other...which is exactly what it should return to, and within afew months.

Your post rings LOUD alarm bells... For you and your marriage to stand a chance you wife HAS to accept she has an issue with sex and WANTS to rectify it...that she loves you and wants to want you sexually because she realises just how important it is to you and your marriage.
If she has done this then MC will help her focus her mind. If she isn't, won't or can't see this than I'm afraid your wife has taken an unfortunate path that will probably lead to you having an affair, separation and divorce.

And don't be surprised if people blame it all on you.....


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

daffodilly said:


> Actually, I'm not a bitter man, I'm a woman who's given birth a few times
> 
> I've seen many of OP's threads and have found him to be pretty reasonable with this issue overall. I feel her efforts are VERY minimal...a way to throw him a bone that she is trying, (but not really). She must know he wants to be intimate with HER, not her hand. To tell your spouse that you DON'T want them to touch you, AT ALL....you have to know that is hurtful, no matter what state of mind you're in.
> 
> OP, if she says she doesn't know why this is happening, or how to fix it, then take the lead on it. Make an appointment with her OB/GYN, find a qualified counsellor yourself since she's willing to try MC. If she's serious about wanting to address this, she shouldn't refuse.



:rofl:

You know, I was looking at the name after I posted and thinking Sheeshe why would a guy pick a flower as a screen name?

Red faced and sheepishly apologizing...


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Anon Pink,

You're a good poster with insightful comments. However, in this particular thread we don't really have a portrait of the wife as a person. All there is to go by is various signs or measurements that the OP has recorded to himself.

When the OP indicates that he doesn't want hand jobs, that suggests that he is not merely seeking his wife as a place for pleasure and physical release. He is seeking an emotional connection. He wants to renew the feelings of love and affection between the two of them.

She doesn't need this. Some women get a lot from babies. But she is aware that he desires intimacy. We don't know much about her personality beyond her general passivity. She doesn't work out. I wonder if she watches a lot of TV.

She apparently does not feel insecure about her marriage. OP has not written about how long he feels he can last like this. His marriage may weather this drought.

Annon Pink, do you think lack of intimacy may stunt or damage their love?


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Annon Pink, do you think lack of intimacy may stunt or damage their love?[/QUOTE]

If I may answer aswell - ABSOLUTELY. No question.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Yes. You're wrong.

Your wife is not sexually attracted to you.

That's a cold truth to swallow, but you need to. I know you know this already---whether you'll accept it consciously or not.

What she says regarding this issue is completely immaterial. What she does is EVERYTHING.

She'll service you. That's IT. 

That's your sexual dynamic in this marriage.

Can your control your sex drive? Can you make it as non-existent as your wife's? That would solve this problem too right?

I'll assume the answer to those questions is: "no".

This answer applies to her too--if you were to ask if she can control her 'wanting' of you.

No. She can't.

She can not make herself feel spontaneous, lustful desire.

Of course Breastfeeding plays a role. It is an known libido diminisher. But, it's hardly the most important factor, because women, as far a sexuality goes, are not really driven by physiological realities, 

sexuality is a mental phenomenon for the vast majority of women 

That is a prime difference they share with men.

And in many respects, it has been the cardinal 'hold' or power over men that women have.

I don't know what to tell you. I feel that by now you surely must know everything you need to do. You just won't do it.

Bottomline:

Regardless of her lack of sexual interest, you really, really don't want to leave your wife

She knows this. 

And she can never be attracted to this. (because on a subconscious level it reads as pathetic)

So just embrace the servicing you get and be happy with that

Or be willing to end the marriage over this issue and see if that spurs REAL DESIRE in her again

(and if it doesn't...you'll know your marriage truly was dead).

Of course, having a 7 month old really doesn't make threatening to end your marriage to a SAHM right now a tenable proposition.

Honestly, I hate to say this, because it feels like capitulating to realities I don't agree with but, in your case, with such a young child, and at least at this point in time----you probably just need to work on just accepting what you're given with contentment.

I think you'll be happier that way...

Because 'being indignant' is NEVER going to engender attraction in your wife...or make you happy

And your son doesn't deserve you threatening to pull the plug on this marriage at this point in his very young life.

In short, you're stuck right now. If you have to be stuck, you might as well stop hating it. So stop wanting her to have sexual desire. The ways in which you could possibly create this again in her, are not available options right now.

Don't have a third child is probably the most pragmatic advice to offer you at this point.


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## Convict (Feb 16, 2014)

on the verge of my own impending divorce, for a number of different reasons, I might just share this:

Its hard to reconcile our expectations about sex with the actual drive our wives have. Its rare for our two drives and desires to be en sync at the same time.

I was told by my wife that the fact that I was not actually sexually forthcoming with her enough during pregnancy was insulting to her and scarred her severely. That was true, I was not sexual with her during her pregnancy. In hindsight I regret that.

I always looked at sex as a act of love, a way to express intimacy and not just sex with the wife. Thats why my expectations were high. She on the other hand thought I was just horny and wanted sex...and thats why it was hard to find a mutual understanding when it came to sex.

I tried lowering my expectations, and being patient, and of course faithful, and wondered if family and kids were more important than my sexual satisfaction.

I guess it didnt really matter at the end as we r on the verge of divorce.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

I don't have any means of doing these mental gymnastics of accepting sexlessness. I guess I could take care of myself a lot and that helps some. It doesn't fill the void completely. You are right I don't want to leave I just don't know how much longer I can stay on this path. I spend parts of every day wondering what it must feel like to be witht a woman who wants to be with me; it's been a long time since i felt that from her. I'm worried those thoughts are going to lead to a bad outcome. 



IndiaInk said:


> Yes. You're wrong.
> 
> Your wife is not sexually attracted to you.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

This pretty much sums up my thoughts. 




DTO said:


> Maybe so, but that's only an excuse as long as you are truly oblivious to your husband's needs. Once her husband has told her that the sex is sorely lacking and he's starting to hurt, then it's on her mind (because they just talked about it).
> 
> Basically, once he's told her that the sex is seriously lacking, there are only two possible outcomes. One, she starts stepping up the sex (either by having more sex, or getting professional help if she just cannot bear to do that). Two, she hears him and chooses to not meet his needs anyways.
> 
> Keep in mind that it doesn't appear she is serious about getting help. Her one idea is to talk to an unlicensed Christian counselor. If she gets one who actually thumps the Bible and tells her she needs to meet his need, most likely she will reject that and shop for opinions until she finds one who will validate her course of action.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

jd08 said:


> This pretty much sums up my thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


so you didn't like my suggestion of showing her some of the posts from other women? Would you say that your wife is an unreasonable person in solving conflict in your marriage ?


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## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> :rofl:
> 
> You know, I was looking at the name after I posted and thinking Sheeshe why would a guy pick a flower as a screen name?
> 
> Red faced and sheepishly apologizing...


:lol: No worries, Anon, you gave me a good chuckle!


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

I didn't say that. I like the idea but I kind of use this place as my safe haven where I can express my thoughts in different ways than I would if I were with her. Plus with all the complaining I've done on here about her mom, etc. I'd prefer that she doesn't know I come to this site where she could easily see my posting history. 

One thing that did help for a brief period of time, however, was sending her articles written by women explaining the importance of sex in marriage to a man. Not just the physical but also the emotional aspects. She seemed to finally understand and it was like a light went on, at least for a couple of weeks. Eventually though she fell right back into the same pattern of not wanting it. I ordered "The Sex Starved Marriage" book by Michele Weiner-Davis but she never started reading it. 




committed4ever said:


> so you didn't like my suggestion of showing her some of the posts from other women? Would you say that your wife is an unreasonable person in solving conflict in your marriage ?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

she is paying no penalty for her choices, why should she do anythign different. This is prime for following mmslp or nmmng. And yes it is an alpha/beta thing, but you don't need to go to caveman, just up your game, even a little.

Anything you do for her without getting your needs met is undermining you.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Things will get better. You see the need to act; your wife does not. So you will act. Be more of the leader in your relationship. Listen carefully to your wife. Do not respond with words. Make some of desires happen as if by magic. Do not tell her when you do. Let her discover via positive surprize.

For what you find unreasonable, do not indulge her. 

You have affirmed her and lavished her with affection and consideration. Cut back and see if she notices.

If she doesn't give a shxt, you need reconsider whether she is into you. If you are headed towards D, it is better 180 before you resent her in a deeply negative fashion.

Does your wife a strong sense of self? Was she ever a self sufficient person?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jd08 said:


> I don't know about covert contracts. I consider it living up to my end of the marriage bargain. Maybe that's a contract but I'm trying to be a good husband and provider. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect minimal amounts of intimacy from my wife. The whole part of not being desired by her is what is making this so difficult.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I mentioned covert contracts in the context of this statement by you:



> I give the foot massages, the back rubs, pick up dinner so she doesn't have to cook, pay all the bills, bring her breakfast in bed, assume childcare roles on the weekend at least. *What is it going to take??*


That says to me that you are doing these things with the expectation that she will reciprocate (hence the contract). When she does not, she has broken the secret contract. So you need to stop the mindset.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

I would slowly start cutting off doing the things that she wants in the marriage. Stop cleaning up after yourself, stop paying the bills, stop mowing the lawn, stop doing the dishes..etc etc.

If she isn't required to do what's not comfortable for her, than neither are you.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jd08 said:


> I don't think those opportunities are available during the week. But she has workout tapes she could do at home if she had any free time. Id watch the kids if she wanted to go at night or on weekends but she doesn't really want to. I go at 5:30 am before everyone is up so I'm not gone when I'm needed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you take the kids any way? I would not wait for her, but actually do it. Grab them right after lunch one Saturday and head out to a park or trial. Stay away for two hours and don't let her come with you. Tell her to go relax and that you are taking your kids out for an afternoon.

I am also wondering if your 5:30 AM workout is sending the wrong message. You sacrifice your time to ensure that she has no inconvenience. That may not be what was intended or initially thought of, but it may be what it looks like now.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

IndiaInk said:


> And your son doesn't deserve you threatening to pull the plug on this marriage at this point in his very young life.


I think this puts the blame on the wrong party.



> In short, you stuck right now. If you have to be stuck, you might as well stop hating it. So stop wanting her to have sexual desire, the ways in which you could possibly create this again in her, are not available options right now.
> 
> Don't have a third child is probably the most pragmatic advice to offer you at this point.


As much as I would like to say this post is all wrong, I can't. I think it makes sense to try to figure out why she is no longer attracted to you, but if you go this route, I would start to detach for your own sanity. Stop doing stuff for her and take care of yourself. Make clear why you are doing that.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jd08 said:


> She just suggests counseling usually during our fights. She'll say "we need to talk to someone." That's about it. Not much to it. _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why haven't you taken her up on this?


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

wilderness said:


> I would slowly start cutting off doing the things that she wants in the marriage. Stop cleaning up after yourself, stop paying the bills, stop mowing the lawn, stop doing the dishes..etc etc.
> 
> If she isn't required to do what's not comfortable for her, than neither are you.


Have to be careful there.

I bet she holds deep resentment as many women do and is going though a midlife thing. 

She is probably lost and questioning her life and being a mess does not "like to be touched" 

If OP cuts back on MANY thing that VALIDATES any questions she had on him... "well he gets what he deserves hes such a jerk."

Now I personally did cut back on one major item, that is cleaning the house and picking up to HER standards of perfection...instead I adjusted to my own internal standards as a single. I only do "extra" up to her standards if she specifically asks. I also don't help with her projects like repainting the interior... it was her decision to repaint not mine. I do my own projects on my timetable again going back to the single mindset.

This does make it less comfortable for her but she cannot really put a finger on it as me doing something to her... similar to her aversion to sex to me . It just is the way it is right now, otherwise we are "normal" with each under some spouse induced stress.

This does have what I would say is a positive effect without severely sacrificing any possibility of resolution that we both want down the road. It puts my mind more at ease knowing she is missing out too and is probably thinking about how to resolve it too.

I guess the key is to make both "somewhat" equally uncomfortable then build it back together if both make moves forward.

Most important is after you said your piece... shut up. Your wife is NOT DEAF.
I believe talking resets the negative needy view on you, not talking allows her to process her life and her part in her marriage...they remember everything.

If sex has been the battleground that needs to end, because the ONLY outcome is if your wife LOSES and you WIN.

What needs to happen and it may take a long time is for HER to realize she needs sex with you to be happy and fulfilled in such a way she will never go back to the non-sex state without a mutual decision to do so.

By constantly talking and making SEX the issue the best result is forcing her into something she doesn't want to do creating more resentment. And drumrolll...forced non-emotional sex no man in his right mind would want. You want your wife to "want you" not "have to"


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

She's going to see her OB Friday. Hopefully that's a start.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Don't agree TT, she needs to have some pain for not trying or caring to meet his needs. he does way too much now.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Have to be careful there.
> 
> I bet she holds deep resentment as many women do and is going though a midlife thing.
> 
> ...



No way. Just tell her that if she doesn't start giving it up, you are going to stop doing the things in the marriage that make you uncomfortable. When she asks why you didn't shovel the snow, mow the lawn, do the dishes, pay the bills, etc etc tell her. Very simple, and that way she knows unequivocally. I'm not advocating for stopping everything at once. I'd do it slowly.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

JD, you've been posting here since November 2012. For 15 months, you've been experiencing an unhappy marriage and you've been unhappy with your relationship. I briefly checked out some of your threads.

You feel marginalized, minimized. disrespected, unloved, and you question your wife's true feeling for you without coming out and saying it. 

After you have insisted your wife read those links I posted last night, I think you need to find your own therapist. For whatever reason, you are unable to advocate for yourself in your marriage. You are an attorney, you advocate for other people and get paid for it, yet you cannot advocate for yourself and are unsure of where you stand and if your needs are reasonable.

From browsing through your other threads, your inability to set down limits and boundaries is quite clear.

Go to this "Christian life coach" with your wife, but also find your own therapist. You want to find a PhD level therapist.

TAG is right, you make these covert contracts, and we all do to a certain extent, but when they don't get paid the way you expect, there are no consequences. You need to discuss this type of behavior with your own therapist.

Your wife only recently ended breast feeding which totally kills the sex drive because it interferes with estrogen. It can take several cycles before the estrogen comes back in full swing. I mention this because a PhD psychologist will know this while a life coach may not.

LongWalk, thanks for the confidence and kind words. Yes, the wife is damaging this marriage. But we all know, people won't treat us badly if we won't allow it.

Therapy JD, therapy!


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I hope he actually reads and follows your post AP. I see a lot of covert contracts, passive aggressiveness, and nice guy behavior here. I don't think he's willing or capable of doing what it's going to take on his own.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

wilderness said:


> No way. Just tell her that if she doesn't start giving it up, you are going to stop doing the things in the marriage that make you uncomfortable. When she asks why you didn't shovel the snow, mow the lawn, do the dishes, pay the bills, etc etc tell her. Very simple, and that way she knows unequivocally. I'm not advocating for stopping everything at once. I'd do it slowly.


And she will hate every sex act with you as a prostitute for your service.

Is that what you signed up for?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jd08 said:


> You are right I don't want to leave I just don't know how much longer I can stay on this path. _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am going to suggest something that sounds very counter-intuitive, but I think will make a huge difference for you.

You need to accept the end of your marriage as an option.

Read that again and think about it. Right now, you don't have that on the table. You can't imagine leaving your wife and kids, because you love them so much. Your problem is that your wife almost certainly knows that. I have a firm belief that women can sense that. They read men's feelings and body language and just innately know certain things, like when a man won't leave.

For some women, that is a wonderful things. They thrive on that type of commitment and give back in multiples when they get it. But for a lot of others it comes across as weak. They lose respect, because they think this means he will stay regardless of how they treat him. As noted, that comes across as pathetic.

So you need to take two steps:

First, accept that you deserve to be treated well, and if she won't do it, you accept that the marriage will not survive. You won't be happy about it and it is not your goal. But you are not willing to take poor treatment for the rest of your life. You deserve better and won't accept less.

Second, you lovingly and respectfully put that on the table. Frankly, she will likely pick up on it once you get through step one. Tell her that you want to work with her and fix this, but is she is unwilling to do so, you don't see the marriage surviving very long. You deserve better and since she won't do it, you need to take your own journey. 

I did this myself. Things were never as bad as what you describe, but I was not happy and neither was my wife. Fortunately, I only had to get through step one. Once I did that, I felt a weight off my shoulders. There was going to be an end, one way or the other. It was not just work with no resolution in sight. With that, I was able to work on my stuff and with my wife to improve things. She took my lead and we are very much happier. But I knew that if she did not, I had other options.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I frankly don't remember having sex again until the second baby was born. I remember lots of fights, I remember one fight in which I took off my clothes and laid on the bed and screamed this is all I mean to you, have at it! And he didn't walk away but I don't remember what exactly happened.


If I were him, I would have responded by throwing my paycheck to you and saying: "this is all I mean to you, have at it!"


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Theseus said:


> If I were him, I would have responded by throwing my paycheck to you and saying: "this is all I mean to you, have at it!"


We have come a long long way since then. My husband used to be under the impression that all he had to do to show love was earn a paycheck. And that's all he did. No help with kids, no help in the home, no compliments, no tender words, no affection, no gifts (in fact I had to buy my own Christmas and b day gifts and give them to him to wrap)... He worked, he watched TV, then wanted sex. We both made a lot of mistakes in the bad old days.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

TT you are wrong. She has no consequences. Wilderness is laying out consequences. If that makes her feel like a prostitute, she isn't worth being married to......


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> TT you are wrong. She has no consequences. Wilderness is laying out consequences. If that makes her feel like a prostitute, she isn't worth being married to......


Tit for tat never works. Never. Ever. Nope. Following his advice will make the relationship even worse. Ask him how his marriage is doing?


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Tit for tat never works. Never. Ever. Nope. Following his advice will make the relationship even worse. Ask him how his marriage is doing?


It has nothing to do with tit for tat. Nothing at all. The bottom line is that we are either required to do that which we are not comfortable with in a marriage or we are not. Clearly OP's wife has decided that couples are NOT required to. So she is reaping the benefits of that arrangement while OP is not. Relationships don't work that way. The rules apply to both parties. 

OP's wife has decided she is not comfortable being touched and thus decreed that OP is not to touch her. OP's wife has made the 'rule' that she is not obligated to do that which she is not comfortable with. Well, what's good for the good is good for the gander. OP should also not do that which is he is not comfortable or doesn't feel like doing.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Tit for tat never works. Never. Ever. Nope. Following his advice will make the relationship even worse. Ask him how his marriage is doing?


I guess it depends on how you view it. Sure, it does not work when it is solely balancing a ledger. But ensuring that there is balance in the relationship can be critical to maintaining the marriage and avoiding resentment. 

So when one spouse refuses to meet certain reasonable needs, the other spouse should certainly consider whether continuing to pretend everything is fine is a good solution. Many women instinctively do this with sex. When things are not well in the relationship, they don't have or want sex with their husband. Her actions are speaking for her. 

I don't see why a husband having his actions speak for him is always a bad idea.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

jd08 said:


> So when did you start feeling like you wanted to have sex again, not just to make him happy but for yourself as well?
> 
> I'm still struggling with the fact that I do everything I can to make her life easier and all I get in return are some handjobs. I don't want those anymore. I want to have an adult sexual relationship with my wife. I could do handjobs myself.
> 
> I give the foot massages, the back rubs, pick up dinner so she doesn't have to cook, pay all the bills, bring her breakfast in bed, assume childcare roles on the weekend at least. What is it going to take??


It takes a combination of being nice, and also confronting your wife.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

jd08 said:


> The conversations usually end in fights. I have so much resentment built up. I usually start out calm until I start hearing her say things like "I don't know what's wrong" and "I don't know how to fix it." Then I get irritated and things go downhill from there. She has no insight into why she feels this way other than to say it's because she's breastfeeding. Again, understandable to an extent but not to this extent.
> 
> She just suggests counseling usually during our fights. She'll say "we need to talk to someone." That's about it. Not much to it.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't get in her head. Don't lead her to places where you two are diagonsing her feelings / wants and desires. 

Here is the problem.

She had a fantasy of marriage where it was about houses, babies, and a picture of a family in her mind. You grew up with a fantasy of constant source of sex.

You have to understand that she is normal and not broken. You have to make her feel normal and not broken. But at the same time, you have to interject an agenda about a husband and a wife, how a good marriage begets good children, the concepts of mutual fuflillment as related to marriage, meeting each other's needs, prioritizing marriage as the source of energy for all to derive benefits from.... Take it up a notch from SEX to mutual fulfillment...

Now, if she wants a Christian counselor, what do you have to lose? Christian philosphy believes that marital sex is essential.... Your wife will be helped if her "religion" tells her that she needs to have sex with her husband.... Women need to permit themself to be sexual.... You just have to police what the couselor is doing as you would with any counselor, there are good and bad...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I guess it depends on how you view it. Sure, it does not work when it is solely balancing a ledger. But ensuring that there is balance in the relationship can be critical to maintaining the marriage and avoiding resentment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree. But I also think that refusing to pay bills or do the things you would do if you were single anyway, or anything that takes from your children is going too far. Wilderness has the right idea but takes it to the extreme which will just backfire.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

One of the best pieces of advice that I ever received in my life:

Don't negotiate with women.

Forget talking about it. It's not going to work. Actions.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Also, stop taking token hand jobs.

Your wife also thinks you are using her to get off on.... That you don't love her for who she is.... And by allowing yourself to get pleasured in this way, you are confirming this to her.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I agree. But I also think that refusing to pay bills or do the things you would do if you were single anyway, or anything that takes from your children is going too far. Wilderness has the right idea but takes it to the extreme which will just backfire.


Refuse to pay _her_ bills. If you were single you wouldn't pay her cel phone bill, for example. If you were single you wouldn't give her spending money.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

wilderness said:


> Refuse to pay _her_ bills. If you were single you wouldn't pay her cel phone bill, for example. If you were single you wouldn't give her spending money.



That's great advice, if the marriage is over and you're planning to separate. There's no coming back from the nuclear option.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

anon - not tit for tat, it is not rewarding bad behavior. not having physical contact with your spouse is bad behavior, don't reward it....


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Hicks said:


> Also, stop taking token hand jobs.
> 
> Your wife also thinks you are using her to get off on.... That you don't love her for who she is.... And by allowing yourself to get pleasured in this way, you are confirming this to her.


I agree insist sex be just that


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Yes, JD, the mind can start to wander to thoughts of what life would be like with someone who wanted to have sex with you. Many men with LD wives don't cheat. But some do, because they are vulnerable, and when they do that complicates the situation many times more than it already was. Ending a marriage is always better than thinking your wife wouldn't find out you were cheating. Not saying you would do that but it's very easy to do.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> That's great advice, if the marriage is over and you're planning to separate. There's no coming back from the nuclear option.


But it's not nuclear to refuse to be touched whatsoever for months? C'mon, now.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Tit for tat is nothing more than passive aggressive behavior.

Perhaps we are arguing semantics.



Tall Average Guy said:


> So when one spouse refuses to meet certain reasonable needs, the other spouse should certainly consider whether continuing to pretend everything is fine is a good solution. Many women instinctively do this with sex. When things are not well in the relationship, they don't have or want sex with their husband. Her actions are speaking for her.


Actions yes, but words for women are necessary too!

When my husband's actions did not match his words (ie, trying harder to meet my stated and insisted upon needs) I did not withhold sex or caring for him as I usually did. I simply called him out on it. And when that still didn't work, I reminded him this was a deal breaker and I was done with trying to make this marriage work for me without his efforts. There was no tit for tat. There was only me stating my needs and my boundaries regarding what effort I thought was reasonable.

There are no "requirements" in a marriage. There are only negotiated desires, wants and needs. Needs are like limits. I need monogamy and without it. There is no marriage. If he chose not to meet that need, the marriage would be over. 

I need to feel loved, just as every other spouse does. This, xyz, is how I feel loved. If you cannot make me feel loved by doing xyz, there is no marriage.

That's how you enforce your boundaries. No covert contracts, no tit for tat. You simply state your need, how you wish that need to be filled and reinforce that by saying if this need remains in filled, there is no marriage.

If I withheld caring for him or sex from him because he wasn't trying to meet my needs, the marriage would only have disintegrated even further and we would be divorced by now.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

wilderness said:


> One of the best pieces of advice that I ever received in my life:
> 
> Don't negotiate with women.
> 
> Forget talking about it. It's not going to work. Actions.


That advice is probably what lead to your ex wife getting a restraining order against you!


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Tit for tat is nothing more than passive aggressive behavior.
> 
> Perhaps we are arguing semantics.
> 
> ...


It's not passive aggressive to play by the same rules as the other person is playing by. Especially when clearly stated:

If you are not obligated to doing things that you don't feel like, neither am I. I'm not comfortable doing A as long as you are withholding sex from me…

then after a time. I am not comfortable doing ABC as long as you are withholding sex from me.

then after more time, I am not comfortable doing ABCDEFG.

The thing that most women don't seem to understand is that divorce is a disaster for men that have SAHM as wives. Therefore, divorce is usually not a viable option. If it were me, I would quit my job and stall for time before I got divorced. That way I'd have a better chance of getting custody.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> If I withheld caring for him or sex from him because he wasn't trying to meet my needs, the marriage would only have disintegrated even further and we would be divorced by now.


I am have a difficult time reconciling this with the rest of your post. I agree that one needs to see action from their spouse. But I think that mere words on the part of the spouse who is not having their needs met creates resentment and sends an inconsistent message. 

Your comment above seems to suggest that if they are refusing to meet my needs, that I am suppose to pretend like everything is just fine in so far as meeting their needs. I don't think this is honest. I am all about it being up front, but if my wife needs words of affirmation about what a great wife, mother and woman she is, it just ain't happening if she is refusing to meet my needs. And I think telling her that because she is ignoring me, I don't feel that she is the worlds greatest right now is somehow wrong. Sure, it may not be meeting her need, but it is an honest expression of what I would be feeling.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I am have a difficult time reconciling this with the rest of your post. I agree that one needs to see action from their spouse. But I think that mere words on the part of the spouse who is not having their needs met creates resentment and sends an inconsistent message.
> 
> Your comment above seems to suggest that if they are refusing to meet my needs, that I am suppose to pretend like everything is just fine in so far as meeting their needs. I don't think this is honest. I am all about it being up front, but if my wife needs words of affirmation about what a great wife, mother and woman she is, it just ain't happening if she is refusing to meet my needs. *And I think telling her that because she is ignoring me, I don't feel that she is the worlds greatest right now is somehow wrong. Sure, it may not be meeting her need, but it is an honest expression of what I would be feeling.*


But what you describe is exactly what I'm suggesting. Being honest. I think we are saying the same thing only calling it something else.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

jd08 said:


> I don't have any means of doing these mental gymnastics of accepting sexlessness. I guess I could take care of myself a lot and that helps some. It doesn't fill the void completely. You are right I don't want to leave I just don't know how much longer I can stay on this path. I spend parts of every day wondering what it must feel like to be witht a woman who wants to be with me; it's been a long time since i felt that from her. I'm worried those thoughts are going to lead to a bad outcome.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I get that.

That advice actually even surprised me...

I didn't realize I would conclude with 'just accept it' when I began typing that (especially rambling) response late last night. 

But as I was writing it I realized that you are bit stuck right now.

In order to possibly stoke genuine sexual attraction in her again this marriage must really be laid down upon the poker table of divorce and you must be prepared to walk if nothing changes. And it might not change (although if she's non-sexually affectionate that's an encouraging sign).

Still, how practical is this advice when you have a 7 month-old baby and a four-year-old?

*Because if you utter that ultimatum, you must be willing to honor it.*

And, in your place, I don't know if I could honor that at present.

So I'd be stuck with these two realities:

_I am willing to end this marriage over its sexless state.

I am unable to end it right now._

Well, if this is indeed the case, sadly, the only good advice to give you is to accept it for the present.

I know it's a rotten thing to accept, and considering this issue has tormented you so greatly, it doubtless seems impossible to even be able to do so.

But then, what's your alternative...

Tormenting yourself further by desiring her to change and be an actual sexual partner? 

_*Because again, that will never, ever happen without this marriage being put on the line first.
*_

So if you're willing to do that right now then do it. 

If you're not, just expect your situation to remain as it currently is, and yeah sure, relieve yourself while you bide your time until your kids reach an age at which you're comfortably willing to end the marriage.

The point I most strongly wish to impart to you is this:

_Whatever you do, DO NOT think that this sexual dynamic will change by some means other than aforementioned one (i.e. threatening to walk). If you continue to torture yourself with the false hope that you can get to the place you'd like to be 'sexual-desire-wise' without the ultimatum, you will only be needlessly exacerbating and perpetuating your misery.
_

Hmm, maybe that's actually the first thing you need to accept...because if you do, I have a feeling the various other paths that are available to you will all become much clearer. 

Admittedly, they are not happy paths.

I'm sorry.

You have a right to a satisfying sexual relationship. You have a right to feel sexually desired. 

I think you absolutely should put the marriage on the poker table, its just a matter of 'when'...

And that's your call.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

What I still do not understand about this wife who withholding sex is her character and personality. Is she a perfectly normal woman whose hormones and parental role have crowded out her normal self, the woman who has a libido? Or does she have deeper issues?

One sign that she is not 100% is the religious interest. If she had always been deeply religious and felt guilty about sex that would be one thing, but now religion appears a shield to avoid addressing the issue of being in a marriage that is dying.

Anon Pink, do you think that being nice but firm and communicative but not verbose are enough. You think OP should be sensual (continue with foot massages) but not needy (stop the hand jobs). And after that with some patience, the ship will right itself?

For a woman to say that she is attracted to a man but unable to have sex is a contradiction. She is not attracted to her husband. She is merely saying that if she did feel sexual desire, he would be the likely partner to satisfy her again.

Why does she assume that he will be there to meet her on the other side of this reversal? Everything that the OP posts is about his lack of endurance in a sexless marriage.

Kolors's thread is very interesting on this count. Both he and his wife maintain that they love each other but are headed for divorce. He did not meet her needs. She sought separation. After not communicating for several years, they now talk.

She refused to have sex because it would be like giving into him. Now he has admitted that without sex he cannot go on. But he now longer seeks it from her. So now that they are communicating, they cannot take the step to intimacy and so their marriage will end, although it is perhaps not what either of them desire.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

IndiaInk said:


> I get that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is a 3rd alternative: fight back. That's what I would do. 

Stop, in order of importance to you-

1. stop making the bed
2. stop mowing the lawn
3. stop cleaning up after yourself
4. stop paying her cel phone bill
5. stop giving her spending money
6. stop fixing things that are broken
7. stop making her car payment
8. stop hanging out at the house when there are more fun things to do.

etc etc


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

Thanks. That hits home. Cold but true. There are no good options here - what a mess. 




IndiaInk said:


> I get that.
> 
> That advice actually even surprised me...
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

I can't stop paying for her car or her cell phone. If I do that it hurts my credit and my kids don't have a car and she doesn't have a phone for emergencies. Not really what I want to do. 



wilderness said:


> There is a 3rd alternative: fight back. That's what I would do.
> 
> Stop, in order of importance to you-
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

wilderness said:


> There is a 3rd alternative: fight back. That's what I would do.
> 
> Stop, in order of importance to you-
> 
> ...


Sure he can do those things. 

They may even get him more begrudgingly offered sex.

They just won't spark sexual desire in his wife, which is what the OP really wants.

And they can't, because doing those things comes off as petty and there's only one way to elicit feminine sexual desire and that's by conveying POWER.

A *genuine willingness* to end the marriage over sexlessness is a power move. 

It takes guts and a strong sense of self-respect to do that, and that's why it often suddenly makes a man seem far more desirable. 

And if it doesn't make him more desirable and save the marriage, then he can at least rest assured that it was unsalvageable and ending it is the right decision.

We are seemingly complex creatures built atop simple, primitive mechanisms. 

Power attracts women.
Beauty attracts men.

Much human behavior can be explained by these two truths.

And much advice can be extrapolated from them as well.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

jd08 said:


> I can't stop paying for her car or her cell phone. If I do that it hurts my credit and my kids don't have a car and she doesn't have a phone for emergencies. Not really what I want to do.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dude, from where I sit that just sounds like excuses. As to the car, simply refi it in her name only. Problem solved. As to the phone, people lived just fine without cel phones for hundreds of years. You'll be fine without it.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

IndiaInk said:


> Sure he can do those things.
> 
> They may even get him more begrudgingly offered sex.
> 
> ...


It doesn't come off as petty. It comes off as reasonable.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

IndiaInk said:


> The point I most strongly wish to impart to you is this:
> 
> _Whatever you do, DO NOT think that this sexual dynamic will change by some means other than aforementioned one (i.e. threatening to walk). If you continue to torture yourself with the false hope that you can get to the place you'd like to be 'sexual-desire-wise' without the ultimatum, you will only be needlessly exacerbating and perpetuating your misery.
> _
> ...


I want to use this to point back to the idea that you need to become comfortable with the idea that your marriage ending is possible. Again, it may not be preferable, but as long as that is not the on table, she will know. 

So use this time to get comfortable with that idea so that you can get to a place where you can calmly and loving tell your wife that if things don't change, you will leave. It may take some time, but that works in your favor in view of the age of the kids.

While you do that, I would again stop the sexual contact you do have. It makes you feel bad, and it likely creates some combination of making you look pathetic to her, making her feel like it is only about the physical release and making her think it is enough.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Her sexual appetite will return once she has completely weaned the baby. BF puts a woman into a non-ovulating condition much like menopause.

Please don't listen to the bulls in the China shop (wilderness, India) who want you to get threatening and control and punish your wife over this. Don't know about India, but wilderness is quite D and quite bitter about it.

There are christians who have professional secular training and credentials for counseling. Maybe you and your W can see one of those? If you have health insurance, it may cover a good portion of the cost for a professional which might appeal to your wife if she is thrifty.

For me, emotional connection is an extremely important prelude for sexual connection. Adult conversation, emotional intimacy, flirting, etc. Marriage Help Program For Couples helped H and me a great deal with communication and emotional intimacy.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Blonde said:


> Her sexual appetite will return once she has completely weaned the baby. BF puts a woman into a non-ovulating condition much like menopause.


Perhaps, but this issue apparently was present even after she quit BF her first child. It was not until she wanted a second child that she began to want sex again.

Since he is planning to wait for a time before doing anything drastic, I don't think it is a bad idea to see if her sexual appetite returns. But past behavior makes me warn against counting on it.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

jd08 said:


> The conversations usually end in fights. I have so much resentment built up. I usually start out calm until I start hearing her say things like "I don't know what's wrong" and "I don't know how to fix it." Then I get irritated and things go downhill from there. She has no insight into why she feels this way other than to say it's because she's breastfeeding. Again, understandable to an extent but not to this extent.
> 
> She just suggests counseling usually during our fights. She'll say "we need to talk to someone." That's about it. Not much to it.


Resentment, yelling at her, fighting over it... 
not a turn on (and maybe alarming and scary for her). 

Don't know where some posters are getting "beta, spoiling your wife too much"? Putting myself in your wife's shoes, I'd feel pretty antagonized and misunderstood... Just sayin. 

She's willing to go to MC. Go to MC.

BTW, the Bible tells husbands (only) to "live with your wife in an understanding way so that your prayers may not be hindered". I agree with Ken Nair's take on this scripture Discovering The Mind Of A Woman: The Key To Becoming A Strong And Irresistible Husband Is. IME there are many MANY times when I do not understand myself - my emotions going all over the place. I just don't. For your wife to be SAFE to say so and to receive some empathy/understanding might just hasten some answers to your prayers...


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Blonde said:


> Her sexual appetite will return once she has completely weaned the baby. BF puts a woman into a non-ovulating condition much like menopause.


I find that to be an almost incredulously audacious thing to assert, as none of the evidence proffered in the OP's past posts supports it at all.

He hasn't had a sexually-fulfilling marriage for a long time. Long before his most recent child's birth and breastfeeding. 

There is absolutely no reason to think a sexual appetite will return when it wasn't there in the first place.

Honestly, I think that a spontaneous 'return of sexual desire' after breastfeeding would be an utterly horrible thing for the OP to expect to happen at this point and would merely set him up for a great deal of mental anguish.

_"Please don't listen to the bulls in the China shop (wilderness, India) who want you to get threatening and control and punish your wife over this. "_

Saying:

_"I am unwilling to continue living in a sexless marriage with you. I must leave this marriage if it remains this way."
_

is in no way threatening, controlling or punishing.

As long as one REALLY MEANS IT. That's the key.

Honestly asserted, it is simply a statement of fact that gives the person to whom it is offered total control over their own destiny and the future of the marriage. 

And yet, it simultaneously gives the offerer their own self-respect back. 

I do not believe the OP has any hope for a sexually-satisfying marriage unless he is willing to it let this issue 'make or break' the relationship. I have not projected some personal dog into this fight to reach that conclusion. I don't have one.

I believe if one merely reads the many posts collected within this forum, the evidence supporting this position is tremendous.

You feel differently. 

That's good. The OP should consider everyone's advice.

After all, that's the entire point of the forum


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

IndiaInk said:


> "I am unwilling to continue living in a sexless marriage with you. I must leave this marriage if it remains this way."
> 
> 
> is in no way threatening, controlling or punishing.
> ...


This is only true if the spouse refuses to seek help. Mrs. JD has an appointment with her OB this week. She has also offered MC. This is NOT a woman who is avoiding the issue. This is a woman who doesn't understand herself, or body, or what has happened to her since motherhood entered the picture.

Meeting a person willing to work on the issue with gun blazing is not going to promote a healthy loving marriage.

If she refused to talk, refused to seek help, refused MC...then you bring out the guns.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

IndiaInk said:


> I find that to be an almost incredulously audacious thing to assert,


Argue with the scientists regarding BF and libido IndInk.

If he does what you suggest he'll get what you got. What was that?

OP, I did not read your history with your wife, but BF reduces libido. It is science.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> This is only true if the spouse refuses to seek help. Mrs. JD has an appointment with her OB this week. She has also offered MC. This is NOT a woman who is avoiding the issue. This is a woman who doesn't understand herself, or body, or what has happened to her since motherhood entered the picture.
> 
> Meeting a person willing to work on the issue with gun blazing is not going to promote a healthy loving marriage.
> 
> If she refused to talk, refused to seek help, refused MC...then you bring out the guns.


JD I wouldn't get too optimistic about the Friday OB appointment. In my personal experience my wife has been to the OB countless times and when she returns and I ask about it her answer 100% of the time was that she forgot to bring it up. Only when I finally went with her to an appointment....and she still didn't bring it up, I finally brought it up myself. Of course that made me look like an uncaring horn dog in the female doctor's eyes and I got a half assed non-answer. I would be shocked...SHOCKED... if your wife actually even discusses the issue with her OB at this week's appointment; unless you're going along and bring it up yourself.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> JD I wouldn't get too optimistic about the Friday OB appointment. In my personal experience my wife has been to the OB countless times and when she returns and I ask about it her answer 100% of the time was that she forgot to bring it up. Only when I finally went with her to an appointment....and she still didn't bring it up, I finally brought it up myself. Of course that made me look like an uncaring horn dog in the female doctor's eyes and I got a half assed non-answer. I would be shocked...SHOCKED... if your wife actually even discusses the issue with her OB at this week's appointment; unless you're going along and bring it up yourself.


Which is why I suggested he go with her. Unless your OB is amazing, they don't ask about the return of your sex drive. You have to bring it up and lots of times, that is really hard to do during a rushed appointment.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

One lesson that I've learned in my life- repeatedly- is to never ever listen to what a woman _says_ she needs to be turned on sexually. By extension, I would also not listen to what any woman says will be an effective strategy for getting more sex with any other woman.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

wilderness said:


> One lesson that I've learned in my life- repeatedly- is to never ever listen to what a woman _says_ she needs to be turned on sexually. By extension, I would also not listen to what any woman says will be an effective strategy for getting more sex with any other woman.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

OMG that's hysterical!

And how's that working out for you? :rofl:


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

wilderness said:


> One lesson that I've learned in my life- repeatedly- is to never ever listen to what a woman _says_ she needs to be turned on sexually. By extension, I would also not listen to what any woman says will be an effective strategy for getting more sex with any other woman.


As much as I dislike your sledgehammer approach, I think there's some truth in this. You don't ask the deer for hunting tips. I often read about men doing exactly what their wives and other women say is needed for them to be turned on, and then the women are just as confused as the men are as to why it's not working. 

A wife is not likely to suggest that her husband demonstrate his improved mating rank by allowing other women to show interest in him, but there are lots of examples of where that turns a woman on. There are far fewer examples of where doing the dishes did the trick, and when it fails to work the man is accused of creating a "nice guy" covert contract....even if the wife is the one who said she'd be in the mood if he helped out without being asked.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

The women participating in this thread have good sex lives with their husbands. Most of the men participating in this thread are unhappy with their sex lives. 

So who do you think might have good insight into how to improve your sex life?


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

No.

_"Her sexual appetite will return once she has completely weaned the baby. "_

This was the incredulous statement. Given everything the OP has posted in the past, this is an unreasonable conclusion to draw.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

wilderness said:


> Having sex with ones husband is an incredibly simple thing to do. * It involves the spreading of one's legs.* Let's not make this more complicated than it needs to be.


What a horrible crude selfish way of thinking of the sexual intimacy of M. We are talking about a WIFE here, not a prostitute.

It involves making oneself incredibly vulnerable and open not just physically, but emotionally and spiritually. If there is anger, resentment, coercion swirling around it... well... it's a turn off. I'll just leave it at that.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I am going to suggest something that sounds very counter-intuitive, but I think will make a huge difference for you.
> 
> You need to accept the end of your marriage as an option.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Blonde said:


> What a horrible crude selfish way of thinking of the sexual intimacy of M. We are talking about a WIFE here, not a prostitute.
> 
> It involves making oneself incredibly vulnerable and open not just physically, but emotionally and spiritually. If there is anger, resentment, coercion swirling around it... well... it's a turn off. I'll just leave it at that.


Based on that logic, a man should not have to clean up after himself, go to work, pay bills, take a shower, or do anything else that he is not comfortable doing.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

wilderness said:


> I am very happy with my sex life, sugar britches. It's the rest of my life that I suck at. And that's the truth.



I suppose it's not occurred to you that the two could be related, since you apparently require so little emotional connection that a woman must only spread her legs for you to be happy.
And since you like to claim that divorce always destroys kids lives, does his sex life warrant destroying kids lives?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

IndiaInk said:


> No.
> 
> _"Her sexual appetite will return once she has completely weaned the baby. "_
> 
> This was the incredulous statement. Given everything the OP has posted in the past, this is an unreasonable conclusion to draw.


Didn't read his history. Read the OP and some of the outrageous marriage killing advice he was getting.

OP, during pregnancy, esp with boys, I have never been so horny in my life.... but H would not know it because I have never been the initiator and would not bother him, so I MB a lot. H kinda ignored me sexually when I was pregnant which hurt my feelings because it appears that the body has to look a certain way to get any interest... 

JME YMMV


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

wilderness said:


> Based on that logic, a man should not have to clean up after himself, go to work, pay bills, take a shower, or do anything else that he is not comfortable doing.


Right, because the spreading of our legs and having a penis thrust inside of us is just like taking a shower!


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I suppose it's not occurred to you that the two could be related, since you apparently require so little emotional connection that a woman must only spread her legs for you to be happy.
> And since you like to claim that divorce always destroys kids lives, does his sex life warrant destroying kids lives?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hence the advice I gave. If she isn't going to do her part in the marriage to meet his needs, he should not do his part, either. Doesn't mean he should divorce, though. My opinion is that this would work 90%+ of the time. Personally, I've found that if I make it known I won't stand for a lack of sex, women generally instinctively know they won't be able to get away with that nonsense and don't even attempt what OPs wife is trying.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> This is only true if the spouse refuses to seek help. Mrs. JD has an appointment with her OB this week. She has also offered MC. This is NOT a woman who is avoiding the issue. This is a woman who doesn't understand herself, or body, or what has happened to her since motherhood entered the picture.
> 
> Meeting a person willing to work on the issue with gun blazing is not going to promote a healthy loving marriage.
> 
> If she refused to talk, refused to seek help, refused MC...then you bring out the guns.


I'm going to just assume you haven't read any of the OPs past posts, because these are simply silly statements otherwise.

This is a several years long problem which she has most definitely avoided discussing. 

I would never tell him to not try MC, but I think it's unrealistic to expect it to have much effect on generating desire in her again. There are a ton of men who do go to MC over this issue and it still doesn't get resolved.

Counseling can't magically create 'sexual-desire' in her. Neither can her OB. And that's the chief problem here.

I believe you and Blonde are offering poor advice that will not help the OP.

You believe I'm offering poor advice.

Unfortunately, I don't have a crystal ball, so I can't say for sure which of us is correct here. Since I can't it's rather fruitless arguing these points with you so I won't any further.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

wilderness said:


> Hence the advice I gave. If she isn't going to do her part in the marriage to meet his needs, he should not do his part, either. Doesn't mean he should divorce, though. My opinion is that this would work 90%+ of the time. Personally, I've found that if I make it known I won't stand for a lack of sex, women generally instinctively know they won't be able to get away with that nonsense and don't even attempt what OPs wife is trying.


At this point 15 months plus of this he has nothing to lose at this point.
I'm not saying divorce either but it has to be one of the options.
I remember in his other threads it was also the lack of respect along with no sex.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

wilderness said:


> Based on that logic, a man should not have to clean up after himself, go to work, pay bills, take a shower, or do anything else that he is not comfortable doing.


No no, those are all things you do for *YOURSELF*. You are still doing them, right? Even though your are D?

No it's more like your wife preparing a banquet of horse-**** for you and bullying you into eating it. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS OPEN YOUR MOUTH AND I'LL SHOVE IT IN!!

Marital intimacy should NOT be like that!!!


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Right, because the spreading of our legs and having a penis thrust inside of us is just like taking a shower!


Are we obligated to do things for our spouses or are we only obligated to ourselves? If our spouses are not obligated to us, we are not obligated to them. As stated, if I were OP I would stop paying her car payment and cel payment. If it were me I would also refuse to clean up after myself as well. Who_ wants_ to pay bills?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Blonde said:


> Argue with the scientists regarding BF and libido IndInk.
> 
> If he does what you suggest he'll get what you got. What was that?
> 
> OP, I did not read your history with your wife, but BF reduces libido. It is science.


And if sex was great up until BF, then I could get on board with this. But it was not. It appears that she only decided she wanted sex when she wanted another baby. So I think the BF is a red herring.

I agree that he needs to take her up on the counseling and see where that goes.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Blonde said:


> Didn't read his history. Read the OP and some of the outrageous marriage killing advice he was getting.
> 
> OP, during pregnancy, esp with boys, I have never been so horny in my life.... but H would not know it because I have never been the initiator and would not bother him, so I MB a lot. H kinda ignored me sexually when I was pregnant which hurt my feelings because it appears that the body has to look a certain way to get any interest...
> 
> JME YMMV


I have read them. I tend to 'follow' the stories of people whom I feel the worst for...and, because I have better comprehensive view of their situation also try to give them my best advice. 

It's interesting though Blonde, because I actually think you are helping prove my point though you may not realize it. 

(And I'm wondering if you'll admit it)

The OPs key problem is that his wife does not desire him sexually. 

You did desire your husband sexually and I would assume that his indifference probably strengthened your attraction.

Because your husband conveys POWER to you.

So will you at least admit that? That you don't see your husband as weak and pathetic?

And if you will, I'll just say that that is not the OPs reality. His wife does not view him the same way you view your husband.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> And if sex was great up until BF, then I could get on board with this. But it was not. It appears that she only decided she wanted sex when she wanted another baby. So I think the BF is a red herring.
> 
> I agree that he needs to take her up on the counseling and see where that goes.


You HAVE to take her up on the counseling. It's a single step in the right direction and she WANTS to do it. Perhaps you will gain ground in there. What you can add to the equation is the type of counselor you will see. You want to see someone who is familiar with sexual issues in marriage and believes sex is a crucial part of marriage. It would be great if they are very familiar with your exact same situation!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> JD I wouldn't get too optimistic about the Friday OB appointment. In my personal experience my wife has been to the OB countless times and when she returns and I ask about it her answer 100% of the time was that she forgot to bring it up. Only when I finally went with her to an appointment....and she still didn't bring it up, I finally brought it up myself. Of course that made me look like an uncaring horn dog in the female doctor's eyes and I got a half assed non-answer. I would be shocked...SHOCKED... if your wife actually even discusses the issue with her OB at this week's appointment; unless you're going along and bring it up yourself.


i've read the advice to talk to GYN/OB when women have loss of sexual desire. I wish someone would post positive results. Maybe its me but I have yet to read about any physician who has been helpful in this regard. 

I agree with WOM, don't expect too much but give it a persistent try just in case the GYN/OB is enlightened. 

This is separate from WOM post.

I know this is not a popular take on this but, I would approach it in terms of a relationship problem not a lack of sex for the man. You can talk about sex till you're blue in the lower regions and it seems to lead nowhere. 

Sexual desire is unlikely to be ignited by a direct discourse on the importance of sex to one person. The importance of an emotional connection and mutual show of love is. Try to get that across without seeming overly concerned about getting sex. 

Also, the "touched out" feeling is real and should not dismissed as an excuse. If all things female are dismissed, regarded as excuses and otherwise derided then you have to accept the same response about all things male. Its human nature. 

Going slowly and building up is probably best. Touching a butt crouch or breast will probably get a rebuff. It's too abrupt. Give her time to warm up and wait till she is ready. 

Don't get angry, that does not work. Just imagine doing something that requires trust and acceptance with a person who is angry with you. 

Do those things sound reasonable?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

IndiaInk, what I am saying, along with several other women, is that pregnancy, childbirth and motherhood throw women for a loop they are not prepared for, don't understand, and don't know how to deal with. It takes time, communication and a willingness to be open and vulnerable.

He has a 4 year old and a 7month old. It is not uncommon for women to go through this lack of desire. Those with good marriages, with husbands who partner with them, with a willingness to work on the issue are the ones whose marriages remain good marriages.

I have said this in so many different posts I really should have it copied somewhere so I can just cut and paste it:
Motherhood has certain connotations that exclude sexuality. When you think of motherhood, your mother, my mother, your wife's mother, you don't think sexuality. You don't picture motherhood and sexuality together. Mothers are supposed to be pure, chaste, loving, nurturing, giving. We don't think of mothers wearing a lace teddy.

When a woman becomes a mother, especially if she hasn't been very educated about sex and sexuality, she isn't prepared at all for how she sees her changing role in life. Women don't compartmentalize their roles as easily as a man does. A man can think of himself as a sexual beast, and also a good son, a good brother, a good provider, a good husband. They are different roles and one doesn't bleed into the other. Not so for women. For a woman, she is a mother, in everything she does, she is a mother.

It takes time to work these things out. It takes love, patience, support and information.

I have skimmed through some of OP's previous threads. I stand by what I wrote in post #99



> JD, you've been posting here since November 2012. For 15 months, you've been experiencing an unhappy marriage and you've been unhappy with your relationship. I briefly checked out some of your threads.
> 
> You feel marginalized, minimized. disrespected, unloved, and you question your wife's true feeling for you without coming out and saying it.
> 
> ...


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

TBH, I never have sex with my husband unless we can both O, so there are no "one way" HJ's. Ever.

To me, it's pretty offensive that she is getting no credit whatsover from the men on the thread for trying when she gets nothing out of it.

OP, I have another suggestion. Talk to her pastor and be honest with him @ your marriage/sex problems. I have women friends, some are older, and we have some pretty graphic, enlightening, and challenging discussions. Maybe a female mentor from the church would be helpful for your wife?


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Blonde said:


> No no, those are all things you do for *YOURSELF*. You are still doing them, right? Even though your are D?
> 
> No it's more like your wife preparing a banquet of horse-**** for you and bullying you into eating it. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS OPEN YOUR MOUTH AND I'LL SHOVE IT IN!!
> 
> Marital intimacy should NOT be like that!!!


I would not do the following if I were single:

1. make my bed
2. pay another cel phone bill other than my own
3. shovel snow
4. pay another person's car bill other than my own
5. stay home most nights
6. pay another person's credit card bill other than my own
etc etc

Why should I be 'bullied' into doing these things if I don't want to?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Blonde said:


> To me, it's pretty offensive that she is getting no credit whatsover from the men on the thread for trying when she gets nothing out of it.


Imagine you have a craving for New York steak. You've wanted it for months. You try everything you can think of to get your husband to let you have it. You ask for advice and people give it....you try and try but never any steak. Then, once every other month he comes home and gives you a Snickers bar. And he wants credit for trying to make you happy with that.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Imagine you have a craving for New York steak. You've wanted it for months. You try everything you can think of to get your husband to let you have it. You ask for advice and people give it....you try and try but never any steak. Then, once every other month he comes home and gives you a Snickers bar. And he wants credit for trying to make you happy with that.


No one is suggesting he should content himself with the occasional HJ. The point is, she is not completely ignoring his needs. That's an indication there is enough concern on her part to work with.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

IndiaInk said:


> So will you at least admit that? That you don't see your husband as weak and pathetic?


No, not weak and pathetic. But in many ways he is emotionally arrested in childhood due to traumatic experiences. So I don't see him as a strong macho man leader. He's more like an overgrown child.

He's fit and good in bed and after 31 years he knows just the right moves to break down my walls when I'm moody

"live with your wife in *an understanding way* or your prayers will be hindered"


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Imagine you have a craving for New York steak. You've wanted it for months. You try everything you can think of to get your husband to let you have it. You ask for advice and people give it....you try and try but never any steak. Then, once every other month he comes home and gives you a Snickers bar. And he wants credit for trying to make you happy with that.


^^that is exactly how I view porn- junk food

Of all people Athol Kay agrees with me.  High Fructose Porn Syrup | Married Man Sex Life


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Blonde said:


> ^^that is exactly how I view porn- junk food
> 
> Of all people Athol Kay agrees with me.  High Fructose Porn Syrup | Married Man Sex Life


I was addressing your point that you are offended that men would not give credit to the wife who was placating her husband with junk food.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> No one is suggesting he should content himself with the occasional HJ. The point is, she is not completely ignoring his needs. That's an indication there is enough concern on her part to work with.


Not true. Blond is suggesting that he should be happy that she is offering the occasional HJ.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Very few web sites or books on motherhood even mention sex let alone have one chapter on it. I can't understand why such a normal experience is ignored. Seems to support the notion that mother's are not women with partners who had a role in making the baby. 

I never expected to be so spaced out for months after childbirth. I never thought I'd have a problem with being so sensitive to touch. I never thought I would be so concerned about sex hurting after giving birth. It happened. 

With that in mind, go slowly and ramp up. It may take more than a week to get things rolling and longer to get back to normal if she is breast feeding or the baby has difficulty sleeping through the night. 

I'm not accusing you of rushing just sharing info if you are not aware.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

wilderness said:


> I would not do the following if I were single:
> 
> 1. make my bed
> 2. pay another cel phone bill other than my own
> ...


They have *two very young children *and OP already replied to your suggestions (which are financial abuse) that he wants his wife and children to have transportation and a cell phone. So let's put this tangent to rest, wilderness.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Not true. Blond is suggesting that he should be happy that she is offering the occasional HJ.


You are putting words in my mouth.

I said it is *offensive* to me that she gets *no credit* from the men on this thread for effort. 

I have a policy with my husband. If he criticizes me for something I do for him,* I stop doing it *

I used to fold his clothes and put them in the drawer. He complained that the socks were not organized by color coding so I put the folded laundry on top of his dresser. He complained that it was not done when he needed it. So I don't do his laundry any more.

OP can do his own HJ. The men seem to be in agreement that they all like their own HJ better than one from a wife. So HJ away (alone)...

I'm not a man so I'm not sure? But maybe I would be straight about it. "I don't want the HJ. I can do that myself. I want to have mind blowing simultaneous O with you while we are are making love face to face. I want YOU!!!"


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Blonde said:


> They have *two very young children *and OP already replied to your suggestions (which are financial abuse) that he wants his wife and children to have transportation and a cell phone. So let's put this tangent to rest, wilderness.


If my suggestions are financial abuse, then withholding sex is sexual abuse. Why is it ok to sexually abuse someone but not financially abuse them?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I was addressing your point that you are offended that men would not give credit to the wife who was placating her husband with junk food.


Placating? She is sacrificing with zero/zilch/nada return for her. Does she LIKE doing that with no return? I doubt it. I wouldn't do it. I don't do it.

If she was here, I'd tell her to knock off the HJ's because the effort is not appreciated and she gets nothing back but criticism and resentment.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

wilderness said:


> If my suggestions are financial abuse, then withholding sex is sexual abuse. Why is it ok to sexually abuse someone but not financially abuse them?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Correction wilderness.

Bullying and coercing for sex and punishing if it not delivered is sexual abuse. Do you need a link for that?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

what part of wedding vows is abstinence? The OP didn't sign up for that or committt to it. just saying.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Blonde said:


> Placating? She is sacrificing with zero/zilch/nada return for her. Does she LIKE doing that with no return? I doubt it. I wouldn't do it. I don't do it.
> 
> If she was here, I'd tell her to knock off the HJ's because the effort is not appreciated and she gets nothing back but criticism and resentment.



Blonde, are you serious? HJs are hardly a "sacrifice" They are a quick way to avoid intimacy with someone - trying to get them off while touching them as little as possible. It's not a favor or an effort, it's an insult. If someone is so disgusted with me that a HJ is all she is willing to do, then I'd rather go without. What is the point of it? *I couldn't get aroused by a partner who sees sex as some kind of chore. *


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Perhaps, if all she has to do is spread her legs for you to consider it good. Yup, you must be one fabulous lover!


I'm not a moderator, but I kindly ask Anon Pink, Wilderness, and others to avoid personal attacks on this forum.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Theseus said:


> Blonde, are you serious? HJs are hardly a "sacrifice" They are a quick way to avoid intimacy with someone - trying to get them off while touching them as little as possible. It's not a favor or an effort, it's an insult. If someone is so disgusted with me that a HJ is all she is willing to do, then I'd rather go without. *I couldn't get aroused by a partner who sees sex as some kind of chore. *


Agreed. I've already advised OP not to accept any HJ. It's not a nice thing she's doing for him. It's an insult. She's feeding him junk food.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Blonde said:


> Placating? She is sacrificing with zero/zilch/nada return for her. Does she LIKE doing that with no return? I doubt it. I wouldn't do it. I don't do it.
> 
> If she was here, I'd tell her to knock off the HJ's because the effort is not appreciated and she gets nothing back but criticism and resentment.


Sorry, this does not even make sense. See the title of this thread. She doesn't want anything in return. If she did, I'm pretty sure the OP would be ready and willing to be available for her.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't think you should accept a HJ if it is not enough for you and she makes you angry. She is probably under the impression that she is doing the best she can under the circumstances and that you appreciate her effort. 

Clearly, you do not. In fact you think she is being unreasonable. That is a wide difference in how you both see this. That's a set up for resentment that may fester a long time. 

Wouldn't it be better to let her know that her performance gains her no credit with you? You need to honestly communicate that her relationship balance is in the red. She can decide if she wants to work at getting it in positive territory again.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Blonde said:


> Correction wilderness.
> 
> Bullying and coercing for sex and punishing if it not delivered is sexual abuse. Do you need a link for that?


Why do you feel that coercion is ok for women, but not men?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

wilderness said:


> Hence the advice I gave. If she isn't going to do her part in the marriage to meet his needs, he should not do his part, either. Doesn't mean he should divorce, though. My opinion is that this would work 90%+ of the time. Personally, I've found that if I make it known I won't stand for a lack of sex, women generally instinctively know they won't be able to get away with that nonsense and don't even attempt what OPs wife is trying.


Well then based on your posts I'd say you're the go to guy if the only goal is to get his and get his rocks off. My impression is that's not what he wants; he wants a relationship with his wife, so the logical conclusion is that he should take advice from people that have successful intimate relationships with their spouse. Does that include you?

On another note, it's lovely that you think simply staying married is all that's required for kids to not have their lives wrecked. Acting like an a$$ of course has no effect on them. My parents did that, stayed, married but acted life a$$es; I can assure you I'd have been much better off if they'd just divorced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

wilderness said:


> Why do you feel that coercion is ok for women, but not men?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



How is he being coerced?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Blonde said:


> You are putting words in my mouth.
> 
> I said it is *offensive* to me that she gets *no credit* from the men on this thread for effort.


Let's look at it from another perspective. If a woman was here, complaining that her husband did nothing to help with the new baby. In her complaints, it was noted that he in fact got up with the child once a month at night, threw in a load of laundry once every couple of weeks, and helped change a diaper a couple of times a week. 

What credit would he be given?

I do agree with your that he needs to refuse them and tell her why. But I do think that giving credit for minimal effort over an extended period of time becomes problematic. What you perceive as trying is received as doing the bare minimum to avoid unpleasantness.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> How is he being coerced?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Emotional warfare. As stated by others, mistakenly identifying his potential behaviour as petty, controlling, passive aggressive, etc...even while admitting that he is not obligated towards his wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I don't think you should accept a HJ if it is not enough for you and she makes you angry. She is probably under the impression that she is doing the best she can under the circumstances and that you appreciate her effort.


This is one possibility. Another is that she is doing the minimum she thinks she can get away with. 

By stopping them, the OP will learn something. If she is doing them for the reasons Catherine and others have noted, she will be distressed over stopping them. If she is not upset, that tells the OP something as well.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I would have been thrilled not to but I didn't ever consider that an option. I was his wife and that was part of the marriage contract. So do I have tons of sympathy for women who won't try? Absolutely not.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Blonde said:


> Wilderness on marriage: "spread your legs and if you don't you cannot use the car or the phone or have access to any money"
> 
> Wilderness,
> IIRC, you have a daughter? Are you grooming her for this kind of M?
> ...


It sounds to me that you believe that men ARE obligated to their wives but women are not obligated to their husbands. Is this what you believe? Because if not, you should have absolutely zero problem with men not paying their wives bills. That sword cuts both ways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Let's look at it from another perspective. If a woman was here, complaining that her husband did nothing to help with the new baby. In her complaints, it was noted that he in fact got up with the child once a month at night, threw in a load of laundry once every couple of weeks, and helped change a diaper a couple of times a week.
> 
> What credit would he be given?
> 
> I do agree with your that he needs to refuse them and tell her why. But I do think that giving credit for minimal effort over an extended period of time becomes problematic. What you perceive as trying is received as doing the bare minimum to avoid unpleasantness.


TBH, I think a HJ when I am not interested in sex is waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy more effort than a mutually satisfying romp. I would not feel good about myself or my M doing that if the response is a giant chip on shoulder of the one I am attempting to please.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Here is another idea I just thought of: when your wife rejects yo tonight, start a gigantic fight that lasts well into the night. Then, when you come home from work tomorrow, initiate again and start another fight. Repeat this every single day. In a very short time your wife will either start giving you sex or leave you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> IndiaInk, what I am saying, along with several other women, is that pregnancy, childbirth and motherhood throw women for a loop they are not prepared for, don't understand, and don't know how to deal with. It takes time, communication and a willingness to be open and vulnerable.
> 
> He has a 4 year old and a 7month old. It is not uncommon for women to go through this lack of desire. Those with good marriages, with husbands who partner with them, with a willingness to work on the issue are the ones whose marriages remain good marriages.
> 
> ...



Anon,

I agree with every bit of this...

And I have also written A LOT in the past upon this subject, but that question really concerns:

WHY women lose their sexual desire in the first place...

MANY sexless marriages (though not all) can trace the 'desire plummet' to the point in time wherein children were introduced into the union.

It makes perfect sense. 

A women fulfills her 'biological prerogative' by raising her offspring.

A man fulfills his 'biological prerogative' by having as much sex as possible.

I remember reading once that relative to the tremendous fertility of men, women could almost be considered infertile. We have a much smaller quantity of eggs and a much shorter duration of viability.

Females are clearly not hard-wired to have sex be the primary object of their life.

In fact, if lionesses become interested in mating while they still have young cubs to raise, it's a very bad sign for the offspring, because it means she will likely neglect them to their death.

For purposes of this thread, I've merely skipped over the question why this happens...and gone straight to what I think can be done about it.

Because regardless of the cause, her husband must become 'desirable' to her again for her to ever really want to have sex with him again.

Her lack of desire will not abate on its own simply because the children get older. (there are plenty of posts here to attest to the fact that while these problems may begin at childbirth they can endure for decades after the mother is done 'rearing' her children).

And I am doubtful that she can 'explore' and 'find herself' back to sexual-desire.

It doesn't work like that.

Attraction is something that must be triggered, not unearthed.

For women, that trigger has and will always be power.

Men regarded as powerful by their wives do not find themselves sexless even during the years with young children.

And accordingly, I too stand by what I wrote.

But again, without that crystal ball into the future, I realize that that's really all either of us can do


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

wilderness said:


> It sounds to me that you believe that men ARE obligated to their wives but women are not obligated to their husbands. Is this what you believe? Because if not, you should have absolutely zero problem with men not paying their wives bills. That sword cuts both ways.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wilderness, sex in M is part of the intimacy of marriage and needs to be mutual. It is part of the marital vows and if the vows are broken, the contract is broken and the parties are free to divorce. You cannot FORCE someone to keep their vows. Love, not freely given, is not love.

"to have and to hold" is a euphemism for sex 
"forsaking all others" = faithfulness
"to nourish and cherish" includes emotional intimacy as well as economic provisions
"richer or poorer; better or worse; sickness or health"- in some cases sickness may interfere with sex


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I think it was Anon Pink who wrote:



> I'm not a man so I'm not sure? But maybe I would be straight about it. "I don't want the HJ. I can do that myself. I want to have mind blowing simultaneous O with you while we are are making love face to face. I want YOU!!!"


:iagree: However, this should only be said once in a calm but passionate voice. He should then leave her to think about it. He should not ever mention it again.

For me personally a BJ is not even close to sexual intercourse in terms of pleasure and intimacy. However, a hand job or blow job could be wonderful if the woman was doing them because it turned her on. 

One question that seems to have been dismissed: does the the OP's wife have any psychologial baggage, e.g., childhood sex abuse or rape?

Does she suffer from even a shading of personality disorder?

OP has not indicated anything along these lines. Therefore, if this is just matter of breast feeding, then the OP can stick it out for a few months more. Presumably, weaning around one year of age is the norm. They are almost there.

But if she simply is not attracted to her husband, then he must either raise his sex ranking in her eyes and or change the balance of power in their relationship. The earlier suggestions about cutting out household chores equates sex with duty. I wouldn't want to make that association. OP could spend less time giving her attention, choosing instead to do things he enjoys doing. Would she notice?



> Because regardless of the cause, her husband must become 'desirable' to her again for her to ever really want to have sex with him again.
> 
> Her lack of desire will not abate on its own simply because the children get older. (there are plenty of posts here to attest to the fact while these problems may begin at childbirth they can endure for decades after the mother is done 'rearing' her children).
> 
> ...


:iagree: A woman who sees other people deferring to her husband, treating him with respect is more likely to be attacted to him, so long as she does not secretly hold him in contempt because she "sees through him".


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Blonde said:


> Wilderness, sex in M is part of the intimacy of marriage and needs to be mutual. It is part of the marital vows and if the vows are broken, the contract is broken and the parties are free to divorce. You cannot FORCE someone to keep their vows. Love, not freely given, is not love.
> 
> "to have and to hold" is a euphemism for sex
> "forsaking all others" = faithfulness
> ...


Ok. So now you are doing a total about face and admitting that spouses ARE obligated to have sex with each other. This is what I believe as well. But the bottom line is that OPs wife does not share that viewpoint. She believes that husband and wife are not obligated towards one another. As such, she should have absolutely zero problem if OP doesnt pay for her car or her cel or clean up after himself. These are the rules that she created.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

How frequent does low/no desire for extended periods of time after pregnancy? You can't use this forum as an example because it slanted towards people with problems. 

According to my friends, it seems to be a average of 3 to six months. Sex can start before strong desire but there is a lull in desire that appears to be normal. 

Too long depends on the people involved. If extended periods are not common, why are there no treatment trials?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

IndiaInk said:


> Attraction is something that must be triggered, not unearthed.
> 
> For women, that trigger has and will always be power.
> 
> Men regarded as powerful by their wives do not find themselves sexless even during the years with young children.


:iagree:

Brilliant.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

wilderness said:


> Ok. So now you are doing a total about face and admitting that spouses ARE obligated to have sex with each other. This is what I believe as well. But the bottom line is that OPs wife does not share that viewpoint. She believes that husband and wife are not obligated towards one another. As such, she should have absolutely zero problem if OP doesnt pay for her car or her cel or clean up after himself. These are the rules that she created.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don;t like your "obligated" language

I like entitlement. Sex is an *entitlement* of marriage as is emotional and physical nourishing and cherishing. If I am not getting those, I am free to divorce. And vice versa for my husband.

I am not entitled to armtwist or coerce my spouse to keep their vow (except for my entitlement to half of the marital property when the M is dissolved. I would use legal means to coerce there if needed)


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Wow, it is so easy to see why your wife left you, it's almost comical.



I don't like to be "that guy" that reports posts but personal attacks like that are unacceptable.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

But it doesn't have to be power. Potential and promise will also be good enough to trigger desire.

Disappointment and disillusionment are desire killers. But here is the odd part. Some women do not recognize a good mate when they have one. For example, the Goodguy (if I remember correctly) was married to a woman the restaurant and catering industry. She cheated on him. He was really distraught. But the end of the day, he remained the IT manager of a small firm. His job pays well. He respected. His divorced exWW very much wanted him back. She most certainly would have been up for sex to seal a new deal.

The was another BH (The-Deceived?) whose barmaid waitress had an affair with a biker cocaine dealer. When her affair was over she wanted her BH back. He is a successful studio musician and singer song writer. He sex ranking was absolutely higher.

So men and women sometimes betray spouses who later proof too good to have adventured.

Here infidelity is not the issue but sexual denial is also right up there with infidelity as a deal breaker.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

When things got bad between my wife and I I told her I know you don't care much for me right now, but I'm a man and I have needs. 

She did her duty and gave me duty sex. After 12 years things are getting better.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Blonde said:


> TBH, I think a HJ when I am not interested in sex is waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy more effort than a mutually satisfying romp. I would not feel good about myself or my M doing that if the response is a giant chip on shoulder of the one I am attempting to please.


I am not sure I understand that. In a situation where you don't want sex or even to be touched (like the OPs wife), a HJ is more effort than full on sex with all that entails? 

I do note you skipped my example. My point is that what you call doing what she can looks a lot different after a long time and many discussions. It is not unreasonable to question her motives or fail to assign credit for minimal effort, particularly in view of her past actions. The hypothetical husband does not get any credit for doing just enough so that he can argue that his minimal efforts mean he is doing something and cares.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> But it doesn't have to be power. Potential and promise will also be good enough to trigger desire.
> 
> Disappointment and disillusionment are desire killers.


Potential and promise are both _power._

I have felt disappointment and disillusionment with dh many times. But we have never been sexless. And I nursed each child (we have five) _at least_ 2 1/2 years.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Thound said:


> When things got bad between my wife and I I told her I know you don't care much for me right now, but I'm a man and I have needs.
> 
> She did her duty and gave me duty sex. After 12 years things are getting better.


What happened to make things get better? You had duty sex for 12 whole years!

Want to ask what you might feel is intrusive, I won't be insulted if you don't answer. What do consider duty sex? Did she make it obvious she was not into it? 

DDid she get turned on once you started? Did she ever initiate. If not how did it make you feel? 

I ask because I don't have spontaneous desire but I do get turned on after I get started. I am never mean and I want to be aroused. 

I'd want to get an idea about what my husband feels. He seems happy. Did you act happy or did you tell your wife about the duty sex? Thanks.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

jld said:


> Potential and promise are both _power._
> 
> I have felt disappointment and disillusionment with dh many times. But we have never been sexless. And I nursed each child (we have five) _at least_ 2 1/2 years.


Exactly.

Whatever name you want to give it, it is ultimately *a sense of a man's power* that stokes attraction.

I'm sure the female desire for a powerful mate is also rooted in our ancient DNA. If I'm a cave woman, and life is 'nasty, brutish, short' and saber-toothed tiger filled----well, then I need to mate with the most powerful man I can attract in order to give my children their best chance to survive to adulthood (which, as a female, is my biological prerogative)

It would be absolutely dreadful if she selects a 'weak man'...so she will not desire them sexually. Nature will not allow 'perceived weakness' to trigger her sexual desire.

For cave-women, power probably took its most obvious form, and the most desirable men were the ones with the greatest sheer physical strength.

In our complicated, modern age, with its comparative ease, male power can look like many different things. A man could be considered powerful because he's:

Wealthy 
Physically Strong
Utterly resolute in his personal convictions 
Hilariously funny
Somewhat indifferent to his wife

All of these 'power demonstrations' would have different valuations depending upon the woman 

As a random, personal example---I've always hated math but I've always been attracted to men who were really good at it, and it was even a turn-off if they weren't (especially when I was younger)

My girlfriends always consider this a funny quirk, me too...but if I analyse the motivations underlying this quirk, it's all still pretty primitive...ultimately, to me, being a good at math = power.

Power is really the constant theme in the discussion of female desire


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

wilderness said:


> It sounds to me that you believe that men ARE obligated to their wives but women are not obligated to their husbands. Is this what you believe? Because if not, you should have absolutely zero problem with men not paying their wives bills. That sword cuts both ways.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How would this equation work if the wife worked and paid her share of the finances? More and more women are primary wage earners. What is she obliged to do? 

Given that these are common problems but line of thinking is not productive. Relationships don't work that way, not in this culture that is.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I am not sure I understand that. * In a situation where you don't want sex or even to be touched* (like the OPs wife), a HJ is more effort than full on sex with all that entails?


If I am in that situation there will be nothing. I don't have sex unless I am "into it". I don't one way "service" H ever. And the thought of that is... distasteful to me. I am not a prostitute.

And based on the responses on this thread toward the act, it seems providing one way "servicing" does nothing for a man or a marriage but create hostile feelings toward the one doing it. I feels so blessed that I am not on that hamster wheel 

My point was I would look forward to providing an HJ when there is nothing in it for me about as much as I would look forward to a root canal. If my husband changes a diaper, well it is HIS kid too! But if he WENT THROUGH A ROOT CANAL for me once a month out of love and trying to please me, well, by golly I should be kissing that man's feet!


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Thound said:


> After 12 years things are getting better.


:smthumbup:Hooray!! So happy for you, Thound!!!:smthumbup:


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Blonde said:


> If I am in that situation there will be nothing. I don't have sex unless I am "into it". I don't one way "service" H ever. And the thought of that is... distasteful to me. I am not a prostitute.
> 
> And based on the responses on this thread toward the act, it seems providing one way "servicing" does nothing for a man or a marriage but create hostile feelings toward the one doing it. I feels so blessed that I am not on that hamster wheel


I think you are mistaking the concerns. A wife who does this on occasion as alternative or when they don't want full on sex is doing something loving. But when that is only what is given for a long period of time, and it is given in an environment where she has made clear she has no sexual feelings for her husband and in fact does not even want him to touch her, scenario that indicates no desire for the husband, then it is not perceived in that way.



> My point was I would look forward to providing an HJ when there is nothing in it for me about as much as I would look forward to a root canal. If my husband changes a diaper, well it is HIS kid too! But if he WENT THROUGH A ROOT CANAL for me once a month out of love and trying to please me, well, by golly I should be kissing that man's feet!


Equating a hand job to a root canal is not a serious response. Your position appears to be that men should give credit and be grateful for any sexual crumbs a woman decides to give. I disagree.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

wilderness said:


> It sounds to me that you believe that men ARE obligated to their wives but women are not obligated to their husbands. Is this what you believe? Because if not, you should have absolutely zero problem with men not paying their wives bills. That sword cuts both ways.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How would this equation work if the wife worked and paid her share of the finances? More and more women are primary wage earners. What is she obliged to do in that situation. 

these are common problems but this line of thinking is not productive. Relationships don't work that way, not in this culture that is.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Blonde said:


> If I am in that situation there will be nothing. I don't have sex unless I am "into it". I don't one way "service" H ever. And the thought of that is... distasteful to me. I am not a prostitute.
> 
> And based on the responses on this thread toward the act, it seems providing one way "servicing" does nothing for a man or a marriage but create hostile feelings toward the one doing it. I feels so blessed that I am not on that hamster wheel
> 
> My point was I would look forward to providing an HJ when there is nothing in it for me about as much as I would look forward to a root canal. If my husband changes a diaper, well it is HIS kid too! But if he WENT THROUGH A ROOT CANAL for me once a month out of love and trying to please me, well, by golly I should be kissing that man's feet!


I am sorry, Blonde, but I dont believe this. Objectively, a root canal is far more painful, time consuming, expensive, and tedious than giving a HJ.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> What happened to make things get better? You had duty sex for 12 whole years!
> 
> Want to ask what you might feel is intrusive, I won't be insulted if you don't answer. What do consider duty sex? Did she make it obvious she was not into it?
> 
> ...


When we had sex it was put it in and get it over with. A lot of sighing and not the good kind. She always O ed, or at least she was a good faker.

I read the MMSLP and NMMNG and applied a lot of it. I did not flirt with women as MMSLP suggested, but mainly manned up. I quit being needy and whiny. I started weight training and have bulked up. I look pretty good for an old fart.

I started doing things that needed to be done without being asked. In short I have become a husband. 

Thru out our relationship she always had to be the bad guy when it came to the kids. I have taken over that role. I also read HNHN years ago and I figured her needs were service, so I help her with her mom who has Alzhimers. I do this without expecting anything in return.

From the beginning of our marriage sex was a reward for things I did. But the sex was always the same, so I figured why do anything when on Friday night I'm going to get the same ol thing. Little did I realize I would later kill to get the same ol thing. At least before I felt loved and desired. I told her about 6 months ago we have to stop the reward sex. I will do what I need to do because I am the husband and it is my responsibility to do so.

Things started getting better, still no foreplay, but at least she seems to enjoy herself now. One thing I do notice is she is real sensitive down below. I don't know if it's part of menopause or aging. Another thing is we got our first grandchild last year, and it has lifted our spirits considerable.

I hope that's enough info. I can't stress enough about reading and applying HSHN with the other books mentioned here.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Thound, you are doing great! Thanks for sharing your story!


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Blonde said:


> :smthumbup:Hooray!! So happy for you, Thound!!!:smthumbup:


Thanks Blondie! And your kind words and advice was huge help.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Thank you for sharing Thound. I found HNHN one of the most helpful relationship books I have ever read. Really helped me to understand my husband better. Still working at it though.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Thank you for sharing Thound. I found HNHN one of the most helpful relationship books I have ever read. Really helped me to understand my husband better. Still working at it though.


It takes time. The only advice is make him feel loved and desired, unless he is being a jerk or something.

Sadly I screwed up my marriage for 20+ years and now I want it fixed in a day or 2. It just doesn't work that way.

I wished we had/would communicate better. Oh I forgot to mention now when we argue, I don't turn it around and make it her fault like I used to. Now I analyze what she is saying and if she is right I own it, if not i tell her why I think I'm right without being condescending.


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## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

jd08 said:


> I didn't say that. I like the idea but I kind of use this place as my safe haven where I can express my thoughts in different ways than I would if I were with her. Plus with all the complaining I've done on here about her mom, etc. I'd prefer that she doesn't know I come to this site where she could easily see my posting history.


I understand your concerns...but....you said that when she read articles about how sex is important to men, it put a light on in her head. I'm wondering what impact this site would have....reading from many women as well as men who understand the importance of intimacy in a marriage, and can speak candidly first hand on what happens when it is overlooked.

I know for me, this site was a huge eye opener....I learned and continue to learn many things....and my marriage has reaped the rewards. She could learn a lot posting on here as well as reading.

You could always go back and delete some posts if you decided to introduce her to TAM. Just a thought.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

Wow, long day at work and this thread blew up. 

I dont feel good about things returning to a point where I will be happy. I think IndiaInk is right. Today she sent me a bunch of articles on breastfeeding and reduced libido (like I didn't already know that). More excuses for never being intimate and trying to justify her behavior. I can't look at my kids and leave the marriage in good conscience. Things are not well but I think I will make the best of a bad situation with little to no expectations and will make the decision to leave at a later date. It sucks and it depresses me but I can't leave my kids and get stuck with a 50/50 at best custody schedule plus alimony and child support.

NOTE: I know that some of you won't like this post and think I should just leave now and/or stop paying the bills. That's not a realistic option. I am not going to financially ruin my family and my kids for my mistakes. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

jd08 said:


> Wow, long day at work and this thread blew up.
> 
> I dont feel good about things returning to a point where I will be happy. I think IndiaInk is right. Today she sent me a bunch of articles on breastfeeding and reduced libido (like I didn't already know that). More excuses for never being intimate and trying to justify her behavior. I can't look at my kids and leave the marriage in good conscience. Things are not well but I think I will make the best of a bad situation with little to no expectations and will make the decision to leave at a later date. It sucks and it depresses me but I can't leave my kids and get stuck with a 50/50 at best custody schedule plus alimony and child support.
> 
> ...


It takes time and effort. Work on improving yourself for you.
There may come a time where you will have to fish or cut bait as we say on the Texas gulf coast.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

Thanks. I think I will know when that time is. I just don't think it's right now. I'm not holding out false hope but rather waiting until a better time to improve my situation. With young kids it's not always about what you want first and foremost. 



Thound said:


> It takes time and effort. Work on improving yourself for you.
> There may come a time where you will have to fish or cut bait as we say on the Texas gulf coast.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Blonde said:


> If I am in that situation there will be nothing. I don't have sex unless I am "into it". I don't one way "service" H ever. And the thought of that is... distasteful to me. I am not a prostitute.
> 
> And based on the responses on this thread toward the act, it seems providing one way "servicing" does nothing for a man or a marriage but create hostile feelings toward the one doing it. I feels so blessed that I am not on that hamster wheel
> 
> My point was I would look forward to providing an HJ when there is nothing in it for me about as much as I would look forward to a root canal. If my husband changes a diaper, well it is HIS kid too! But if he WENT THROUGH A ROOT CANAL for me once a month out of love and trying to please me, well, by golly I should be kissing that man's feet!


That is so strange to me. I often give to my husband sexually without expecting reciprocation. And he does to me too. Sometimes, for whatever reason, one person is into it and the other isn't. 

We serve each other in all kinds of ways. Why would sex be different?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Since she is into sharing reading material there are 3 great books written by male and female Christian authors. Read them first and then share. 

"For Women Only" ; "For Men Only", and "For Couples Only" Three-in-One Relationship Resource For Couples Only," : by
Shaunti Feldhahn, Jeff Feldhahn. 

Be honest with your wife, also kind and without wavering. She does not understand men and neither do you understand women. Read the books for a little perspective. 

Be honest with her, let her know what is going on with you in a non accusatory tone. Let her know how seriously in trouble the relationship and that you want your marriage and family to be happy.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

jd08 said:


> Wow, long day at work and this thread blew up.
> 
> I dont feel good about things returning to a point where I will be happy. I think IndiaInk is right. Today she sent me a bunch of articles on breastfeeding and reduced libido (like I didn't already know that). More excuses for never being intimate and trying to justify her behavior. I can't look at my kids and leave the marriage in good conscience. Things are not well but I think I will make the best of a bad situation with little to no expectations and will make the decision to leave at a later date. It sucks and it depresses me but I can't leave my kids and get stuck with a 50/50 at best custody schedule plus alimony and child support.
> 
> ...


I have followed your story. 

I never consciously decide whose posts will 'move' me enough to do that. But I think one of the recurrent themes is that I tend to follow the stories of men whom I think are really great husbands that are watching their wives single-handedly destroy the marriage inexplicably...

You sort of remind me of the poster Thunderstruck. Very similar situation. And also one that I followed and felt very sad for...

Anyway, I think it may bring you some comfort to read his posts if you're so inclined...because he's also stuck in his marriage for the present and his wife is worse than yours.

I think he's come to a place of acceptance for his (current) unhappy reality...and so it may be valuable for you to read through his posts.

None of us want to feel we're alone in our unhappiness.

I do hate it so much when I feel advice like this (i.e. accept the awfulness of your situation) is the best course...

Sadly, I just think giving you the false hope that she's going to magically change on her own would actually make you more miserable in the long run. Because that hope will never prove true.

BUT...the last bit of advice I have to give you, and this bit was actually the whole point and purpose of first giving you the rotten, reality-based advice is:

BE HAPPY RIGHT NOW

And don't say that you can't be.

That's a cop out.

If you can truly accept that things will not change until you can realistically lay the marriage on the line and thus find out where you and she really stand regarding each other--then you DO NOT have to spend your 'time-biding' time feeling miserable.

_*You'll only feel miserable if deep-down you're still expecting a change in her behavior.*_

If you stop expecting that, you can look around at all the other areas of your life that can bring you happiness.

Your children would be first one.

(I'm in med school. Last week we had a mother come talk to us with her 4 year-old son. He has Epidermolysis-Bullosa. Basically, his skin just falls off of his body at the slightest touch. When he awakes in the morning his ears have often blistered and stuck to his sheets in the night. His fingers and toes have to be bandaged so that his digits don't fuse together. He had blisters on his face. Going to the bathroom is very painful for him (due to the friction it causes). He's on morphine and has been forever. Oh, and his mind is completely normal; he already knows he is 'different'. And he will probably not live past early childhood.)

That was one of the most gutting experiences I've had in medical school thus far. I don't know how his mother doesn't spend every day looking at all the 'normal children' running around and not feel angry and cheated that this was her and her sons lot in life. But she doesn't (she was very religious, and though I'm not, I still admired her acceptance of her life circumstance). 

I tell this story simply because I hope it may help you find some gratitude for the wonderful aspects already present within your life. You would never trade places with her.

I so, so don't want you to torture yourself needlessly.

*The only thing worse than having to wait awhile until your kids are a bit older, is having to wait whilst feeling terrible about this circumstance*.

You DO have control over how you feel, even if it doesn't feel like it at first.

An awesome Marcus Aurelius quote I read often and try to burn into my brain:


_“If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.” 
_

Easier said than done?

Hell yes.

Totally accurate and true?

Absolutely.


Also, try not to hate your wife, try to love and feel compassion for her too. That will be hard. Really hard. But doing it will actually make life much better for you---(which is the only reason I tell you to do it)

If you feel very negatively towards her...you actually punish yourself a great deal.

Ugh. 

Well, I guess that's all the wisdom I've got to offer you. I do wish I had more or better.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

:iagree:

Great post, IndiaInk.

A friend of mine recently died of hepatitis. He lived extra years with not one but two transplanted livers, the second from his own son. It was horrible talking with him in the hospital when his third liver tanked.

His mind wanted to live. The organ failure condemned him. But he did get to become a grandfather before he died. Thinking about him gives me perspective.

OP,

You need to make yourself happy without a sex life. You will end up distancing yourself from your wife. You have explained a lot already. If she does not notice that is her mistake. I suspect that despite your best intentions your love for her will die.

I know how men think... or rather feel. You could be having a conflict with your wife but if you got to make love in the evening and fall asleep tired but happy, the next day would be easier to face. Life is not about perfection. It has to be good enough.

For your wife a sexless marriage is good enough. She can empathize with you enough to give you hand jobs. If there is one point upon which most of us concur that is you should stop them. That is action. I would stop initiating sex, unless you feel happy and determined that your attempts are like lottery tickets, you don't expect the million dollar payout.

If you can hang on for a while, you can protect your children from the economic chaos of divorce. 

Does your wife have a career, education?

Can you give some account of her personality. Your description of her is very faceless and sexless. She appears nothing more than a mother animal. Tell us why you love her. What attracted you to her to begin with?

When someone comes to TAM and cannot convey enthusiasm for their partner not infrequently they are headed towards divorce.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

IndiaInk said:


> Attraction is something that must be triggered, not unearthed.
> 
> For women, that trigger has and will always be power.
> 
> Men regarded as powerful by their wives do not find themselves sexless even during the years with young children.


Generally agree, with the exception that this might not apply to women with serious sexual baggage (i.e. abuse).


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

IndiaInk, I too am impressed with your posts. I could totally relate to what you said about women being attracted to power.

On what you said about the boy you observed during your studies . . . Our ds14 has had cancer twice, and has a 25% chance of being alive in 4 years. Dh and I carry this burden. We cannot escape it.

Ds14 was diagnosed 4 years ago when we were living in India. Even when we found out, I did not feel we could complain or ask why, as we were at least able to afford treatment. I saw many, many, many poor children all around us who would have just died if they had gotten AML.

I've shared some of the stories I have read on TAM with ds14, esp. stories about men whose wives have had affairs. Honestly, ds is not very sympathetic. He feels there are things that can be done in a situation like that; he feels he is pretty much at the mercy of his cancer.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> How would this equation work if the wife worked and paid her share of the finances? More and more women are primary wage earners. What is she obliged to do?
> 
> Given that these are common problems but line of thinking is not productive. Relationships don't work that way, not in this culture that is.


I think having a W who pulled her weight as you described above would help many such situations. I personally felt "used" for my wallet, skill at running a household, etc. that added significant pain to the sexlessness. It took everything I had to run the home, and there wasn't much left to do for myself.

The OP listed, in addition to the sexlessness, the fact that she's a SAHM as part of what bothers him about the situation. From experience, I can tell you that I would feel like if she's meeting my sexual need, she ought to at least be doing something and stop being a net drain on the relationship.

You see this same dynamic at other times on TAM. There is an overall significant imbalance of which the lack of sex is the most glaring and objectionable sign. While nothing can make up for the lack of sex in many cases, having a wife who says "I will do more / accept less in other areas while I continue to work on my sex issues" would clearly signal to me that she's willing to endure significant discomfort and not sponging off me.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

jd08 said:


> Wow, long day at work and this thread blew up.
> 
> I dont feel good about things returning to a point where I will be happy. I think IndiaInk is right. Today she sent me a bunch of articles on breastfeeding and reduced libido (like I didn't already know that). More excuses for never being intimate and trying to justify her behavior. I can't look at my kids and leave the marriage in good conscience. Things are not well but I think I will make the best of a bad situation with little to no expectations and will make the decision to leave at a later date. It sucks and it depresses me but I can't leave my kids and get stuck with a 50/50 at best custody schedule plus alimony and child support.
> 
> NOTE: I know that some of you won't like this post and think I should just leave now and/or stop paying the bills. That's not a realistic option. I am not going to financially ruin my family and my kids for my mistakes.


Your dedication is very admirable to you, and if you feel that strongly and can persevere, I say go for it. But, there might come a time when her behavior has worsened and/or your ability to withstand the bad treatment has eroded. At that point, you might feel you have to act strongly. If it happens, you should feel free to do so without guilt and know that doing so may actually make the situation better.

I'm not necessarily proud of what I did when I finally reached my limit, but I feel it was definitely justified. My ex had expressed regret at her poor treatment of me during her first pregnancy. I refused to have another child until she had committed to improving her behavior.

Well, sure enough, she reneged. One day when pregnant, after I had a long day at work (she had been home for a while) she was right next to our son and I asked why she was letting him cry when she was right there. She started to lay into me very loudly (in front of my relatives / houseguests). So, the next words out of my mouth were "pack your sh!t and get out".

And, after all the drama was done, I did not invite her back home. I waited for her to ask to come back home. I never said I didn't love her, but she had to know that her behavior was completely unacceptable.

She learned a valuable lesson that day. I was a giving (and forgiving guy) but there was a baseline of respect and effort that I would demand. She even consented to having sex a few times (there had been none for several months, and she has easy pregnancies - no morning sickness or other complications).

And, she never again treated me in that manner. Ever. I know she always harbored some resentment for that, but she knew better than to mention it, because it could have been avoided by providing the bare minimum level of effort I expected. And she knew that I provided a great deal.

So, all that goes to say if you need to act strongly, do it. If you do provide as much as you say, it's very likely your wife will fall back into line (at least somewhat) because you've forced her to a decision point. And, if she resents it - so what? Would you rather have a wife who's ticked pink but blows you off, or one who actually tries?


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

Thank you for this. Very insightful and a different way of looking at it that I had not considered before. I will work on my own happiness and stop tying myself down to false hopes. In all other parts of life I have a good grip on reality and tend not to rely on "hope." I need some work in this area. 




IndiaInk said:


> I have followed your story.
> 
> I never consciously decide whose posts will 'move' me enough to do that. But I think one of the recurrent themes is that I tend to follow the stories of men whom I think are really great husbands that are watching their wives single-handedly destroy the marriage inexplicably...
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

JD,

Good decision. The more you are able to provide for your own happiness, the more attractive you will be to your wife. She will want to get closer to you to get whatever it is.

If you have to end your marriage because she is not a full partner, you will also be in a better position to cope.

Could you please describe your wives positive attributes? What attracted you to her? What is there that gives you hope?

Is she clever? Make interesting conversation? Is she artistic? Charismatic? Hard working? What does she bring to your life together?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Someone had posted a suggestion about talking to her pastor regarding your sexless marriage. This could be a great idea under the right circumstances. But, you need to be really sure about the stand of your church, and consider how your wife will react, before you do this because you intend to stay in the marriage (so you need a certain level of civility at home).

I did this, and my (used to be our) pastor is a straight shooter when it comes to Biblical imperatives. So, the pastoral staff does believe in:

_*1 Cor 7*

3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control._

But, they also believe in:

_*Matthew 18*

15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector._

So, while my ex wasn't strictly shunned, she was told that since she did not care about the marriage enough to fulfill her marital duties, her complaints about the marriage weren't wanted and would be ignored. We had both known the pastors for several years at that point, so they knew the history and were 100% in saying she was full of BS for thinking she had cause to withhold sex. But it did lead to her abandoning the church and blaming me for the loss of companionship - significant issues to consider.

The other possibility is your church doesn't adhere to this biblical teaching because of general discomfort. Some pastors simply aren't willing to inflict this sort of discomfort on the congregation and don't mention it at all, or say it's a personal matter, or soft pedal it somehow.

Tread lightly.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jd08 said:


> Thank you for this. Very insightful and a different way of looking at it that I had not considered before. I will work on my own happiness and stop tying myself down to false hopes. In all other parts of life I have a good grip on reality and tend not to rely on "hope." I need some work in this area.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Since you are not leaving until sometime down the road, consider whether you want to work on anything in the meantime. Two areas are yourself and your marriage. Working on you is a must. You have the time, so make you the best that you can be. 

Your marriage is optional but seems like a good candidate. as long as you are going into it with the expectation that no change is a very likely scenario, I don't see any reason not to try things like marriage counseling, getting her to read up and stuff like MMSL. If they work, great. If/when they don't work, it will likely give you some peace once you decide to pull the plug.


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## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

Did your wife work before children? 

I ask this because, if you are realistically thinking that, down the road, you may decide to end the relationship, it doesn't hurt to look at things from a financial perspective. I'm thinking about alimony. The longer she is a SAHM, the more this puts you at a disadvantage.

You have a 4 year old starting school soon. I would start planting the seed of having your wife financially contributing, having your youngest in daycare. I wouldn't divulge your motivation to her in this, but there are some advantages to children attending daycare/preschool....socialization with other children, for example. And it certainly wouldn't hurt your wife to start developing a career. And also during this time of acceptance, focus more on developing a relationship and special time with your kids vs. sending your wife for pedicures and taking her out for dinners. Not saying you need to treat her poorly but no need to bend over backwards and allowing yourself to be taken advantage of the way you have been.


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## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

BTW I don't mean this right now (I know your youngest is only 7 months old)....I'm thinking in a couple of years.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

One thing you should elaborate on is what your sex life was like originally. In your first post it says this all started when she became PG with #2. So if you had a sex crazed wife who suddenly became libidoless it is probably a medical issue. But, if sex was a strugglle and child #2 cemented it, then it is a very different issue. I'll post on assuming the latter.

I'm going to tell you that if your maritial sex depends on something called a woman's libido, then 95% of marriages would have a terrible sex life. Libido, iin the sense that a woman will "get horny", then "want sex", then "have an orgasm", and then "be satisfied".... That is the descripton of a man's sexual process.

So all this talk about libido is not productive.

When a woman shuts down sexually it's not a libido issue. Women are not biologically programmed to be 5 minutes away from sexual arousal at all times.

A woman shuts down sexually becuase sex is not a priority to her. And, for a new mother, this is NORMAL and EXPECTED. There is nothing wrong with her.

So, without a man "intervening" in some way... The woman's natural process will look like this. A woman want's a husband... Sexual switch goes to the on position, she sexes him to get him into marriage. Now, a woman who wants babies in her marriage, this switch stays on until the number of babies she wants occurs. Now, she has her husband, she has her babies... Switch turned to OFF position. No need for that sex stuff any more. 

This is what happens when a man lets it all flow naturally.... 
This is why the concept of male leadership in a marriage gets thrown around. You as a man have to advocate and lead your marriage to a different then the natural state. You have to affect things. Worrying about "Libido" is a sure sign that you just want nature to take care of all this for you. Epic fail.

Women don't understand men just like men don't understand women. So to her this need for sexual fulfillment inside a marriage is preposterous, foreign, not understood (to her). Sex to her is for a very different reason than personal fulfillment and happiness.

She thinks you just want to "get off". She doesn't comprehend sexual fulfillment. So has your behavior taught her this? YES!!!!! By tolerating unfulfilling hand jobs. As I said you have to purposely disrupt the "natural" way of being...

Here's another snippet of proof of what I'm talking about. "Look, here's an article showing how BF reduces libido". This fits pefectly with her world view that nothing is more important than these children. And, what is your reaction? More or less in line with all the women posting about how BF reduces libido. Give up. Your sunk. Tolerate it. What is my reaction? If BF reduces her libido, then she should not be breastfeeding. The #1 thing a mother can give a child is an INTACT FAMILY. This gift trumps all others. A breastfed child raised in a divorced marriage is worse off than a bottle fed child raised in an intact marriage.

Where is your wife going to learn this concept? From articles? NO.... She will learn from you her husband living your life from a place of values of which Fulfilling Marriage begets Intact Marriage begets Great Outcomes for the children is one of your core values. That's the process you have to follow, to teach her this.

How do you start teaching her this? By giving her fulfillment in her marriage due to YOUR PRESENCE in it.

I've written a book already.... Will post more if I can.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Blonde said:


> My point was I would look forward to providing an HJ when there is nothing in it for me about as much as I would look forward to a root canal. If my husband changes a diaper, well it is HIS kid too! But if he WENT THROUGH A ROOT CANAL for me once a month out of love and trying to please me, well, by golly I should be kissing that man's feet!


Phew, that's some right fine hyperbole there. Top shelf!

Giving a hand job is not the existential equivalent of a root canal. It's more in line with pushing the vacuum cleaner around the house once a week, if we're going to stick to the unpleasant household duties that skirt the edge of prostitution.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

jd08 said:


> Wow, long day at work and this thread blew up.
> 
> I dont feel good about things returning to a point where I will be happy. I think IndiaInk is right. Today she sent me a bunch of articles on breastfeeding and reduced libido (like I didn't already know that). More excuses for never being intimate and trying to justify her behavior. I can't look at my kids and leave the marriage in good conscience. Things are not well but I think I will make the best of a bad situation with little to no expectations and will make the decision to leave at a later date. It sucks and it depresses me but I can't leave my kids and get stuck with a 50/50 at best custody schedule plus alimony and child support.
> 
> ...


I'd like to respond especially to the bolded. I believe this is probably the root and heart of why you are having these problems with your wife. You are allowing her to take advantage of you. I think it's a major league cop out to say "I am not going to financially ruin my family". First of all, no one suggested that you do so. More importantly, if you get divorced, that's exactly what is going to happen. And divorce is where you are headed right now. You really should read the chapter in The Mindful Attraction Plan on emotional vampires. That's what your wife is…an emotional vampire. 

I strongly urge you to reconsider and _stand up for yourself_. Just talking is not going to change your wife's behavior. Actions. Whether it's improving yourself so your wife will be attracted to you (carrot), making sure she feels the consequences of her actions (stick), or- most effectively- both the carrot and the stick, do something to change your situation. Don't just sit back and watch the train go off the tracks and into the ditch.


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## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

Hicks said:


> The #1 thing a mother can give a child is an INTACT FAMILY. This gift trumps all others. A breastfed child raised in a divorced marriage is worse off than a bottle fed child raised in an intact marriage.



:iagree::iagree: Unfortunately, OP's wife is absolutely certain her family will remain intact, no matter how she treats him. I only hope that if he is for now resigned to the idea of staying no matter what, then he seriously starts developing a long term exit strategy. I just don't get the feeling she will change.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

daffodilly said:


> :iagree::iagree: Unfortunately, OP's wife is absolutely certain her family will remain intact, no matter how she treats him. I only hope that if he is for now resigned to the idea of staying no matter what, then he seriously starts developing a long term exit strategy. I just don't get the feeling she will change.



And that's on him 100%. He steadfastly refuses to consider any actions to make her even a little uncomfortable in this area. When you think about it, more than a little of what he's getting is his fault.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Well, there's a long way between where they are today, and divorce. It's a mistake for him to insinuate to her that divorce is imminent.

But it's very low risk for him to paint a picutre that ultimately, the marriage will crumble if it is not sexual.

The strange thing is the process to waking up your wife's sexuality and accepting within yourself that divorce is your best option is ONE AND THE SAME. And he's not there yet.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

DTO said:


> I think having a W who pulled her weight as you described above would help many such situations. I personally felt "used" for my wallet, skill at running a household, etc. that added significant pain to the sexlessness. It took everything I had to run the home, and there wasn't much left to do for myself.
> 
> The OP listed, in addition to the sexlessness, the fact that she's a SAHM as part of what bothers him about the situation. From experience, I can tell you that I would feel like if she's meeting my sexual need, she ought to at least be doing something and stop being a net drain on the relationship.
> 
> You see this same dynamic at other times on TAM. There is an overall significant imbalance of which the lack of sex is the most glaring and objectionable sign. While nothing can make up for the lack of sex in many cases, having a wife who says "I will do more / accept less in other areas while I continue to work on my sex issues" would clearly signal to me that she's willing to endure significant discomfort and not sponging off me.


Your wife seems to have taken advantage of you. The worse thing you can do is hold onto the anger and bitterness. It is not hurting her.

I cannot understand your thinking about the "I will do more/accept less" thing. I thought you objected to sex being used to manipulate a man into marriage and having children. 

Yet, you agree with the exchange by proposing that if the sex is not forthcoming then the perks from the man should stop. 

I just don't think it works like that. That at lest is evident from the many threads on this forum. There is a lot of misunderstanding and ignorance about the way men and women work. Our cultural seems to mitigate against empathy and compassion between the genders. 

Does dump the b1tch and get a couple of younger replacements sound familiar? It should - I see it at lest a few times a day in posts.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Your wife seems to have taken advantage of you. The worse thing you can do is hold onto the anger and bitterness. It is not hurting her.


I appreciate your concern. We have been apart for nearly five years, and I've gotten over those feelings you described some time ago. I'm merely sharing my experience and sentiment, because I've found it's common for women to fail to grasp why such seemingly disparate things such as poor sex and lack of contribution elsewhere could be related. the truth is that they both can be perceived as a lack of respect for the husband and his efforts.

ETA: Another way to put it is that, after a while, I did not let her have her cake and eat it too - doing so is rewarding bad behavior. I always preferred her to be a partner in a relationship that benefits both of us fairly equally over time. But if she was going to consistently prioritze self, then I would do the same. I didn't believe in making our daughter suffer for mom's selfishness, so i made sure that the basic bills were paid, her car was safe, etc. but all those small niceties and acts of service vanished - like "poof" - unless it was something I really felt like doing.

IMO, what seems to be a common disconnect between the HD and LD spouses is the LD do not get that their low sexual provision impacts how much service they receive in return. It is hard work all the way around to be consistently loving in a way that resonates with your spouse, because (1) the two might have different LLs and (2) nobody is going to be into serving someone else 100% of the time. If my ex was not "recharging my batteries" so to speak, I eventually refused to do for her so (1) she would gain some insight as to how I feel and (2) to keep my contribution at that sustainable level (think NMMNG) which, as I just noted, depends on how much she gives back.

I've read around this and other boards to know that this is typical thinking in these situations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

DTO l am glad you have healed from you bad marriage. But I have to admit that This is what I do get. Lack of contribution by men or women in a relationship causes problems. A man's sex drive is far more robust than a women's. Therefore, conflict does not usually effect his desire for sex. It does for his partner. 

That is probably as difficult to understand as the connection between goods, money and sex. It seems that each side needs to be more understanding of the other and to make adjustments. 

It is a matter of self-respect for me. I would never stay in a relationship with a man who feels that maintaining his domicile and supporting his kids is connected to the amount of sex he is getting from me. 

Our values would be incompatible.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Pregnancy is no excuse to stop loving you / giving you your intimacy needs.

If sex is purely physical to you and you just want to cum. I see an issue but it isn't something that makes me angry. She isn't your palm or sex doll. She is a person. If sex / making love is intimacy to you and something you need to feel close, wanted, loved, accepted, and needed.... she needs to be the wife she promised she would be. Even if you both just have intercourse without an orgasm. Shame on her. 


She is acting very selfish and you have abstained long enough. You have already shown you are NOT selfish. Alpha up.


Thread topic for her: "He doesn't like to be married."


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Hicks said:


> The strange thing is the process to waking up your wife's sexuality and accepting within yourself that divorce is your best option is ONE AND THE SAME. And he's not there yet.


That's exactly right.

They say all truth is paradoxical.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

I'm kinda in a same situation. It's about possible vaginitus, or just a possible real bad relation where she bent over backwards for someone just in to get his. So the store is closed.

I'm not selfish either. I'd be happy to penetrate even if I had to come straight out, and take a HJ or BJ.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

jld said:


> IndiaInk, I too am impressed with your posts. I could totally relate to what you said about women being attracted to power.
> 
> On what you said about the boy you observed during your studies . . . Our ds14 has had cancer twice, and has a 25% chance of being alive in 4 years. Dh and I carry this burden. We cannot escape it.
> 
> ...




Listening to her talk was of one of the most moving experiences I have ever had.

She was young and very pretty. Her parents were missionaries so she grew up having a very strong faith.

She told us that she has a deep trust and faith in God and that she accepts that this is a part of his plan. She doesn't ask for it to be different.

And she seemed to really mean that, because she was very calmly saying things that were making me feel absolutely miserable just to hear:

She said that his toes are beginning to fuse and they're trying to slow that down.

That they're trying to delay having to use a feeding tube (eating is very painful for him too)

He has lived his entire, short life in constant pain and changing his bandages is also a long and excruciating ordeal for him.

She said he doesn't spend much time with other children, and he shies away when they start asking him questions about why he looks different. He says "mommy I don't want to talk about my genetics" (he's very, very smart).

And as she calmly told us these awful things, I was just sitting in my seat looking at them both and thinking, _"Why on earth does this have to be your life? _

But the most powerful evidence of her acceptance was when she talked about his life expectancy. 

(Normally, if patients and their families are coming to speak to us and the disease has a bad prognosis, we don't discuss that aspect until after they leave.)

But, in this case, she was the one who offered that information. 

She said, rather softly:
_
"Some kids can live into their 30s and then they usually die of skin cancer. Kids with DS's type usually do not live beyond early childhood. So his life is about quality not quantity"
_
(* he was sleeping in her arms as she said this)

It's hard to convey in text, why this was so moving because it wasn't the words, it was an energy she was giving off as she spoke. Her voice didn't break with tears and it also didn't seem hollow or robotic. She was just truly facing this unhappy future with serenity and deep acceptance. She really was. 

A complete and unconditional acceptance of Life (good or bad) is the foundation of all wisdom and happiness.

It's something I would pay dearly to possess fully myself. So to see someone actually living that was frankly incredible. 

I'm so sorry that your son has AML. 

I'm very happy if you can avoid asking 'why us', because it's a misery-inducing question with no answer.

I'm also not at all surprised about his attitude towards the stories you read him, he probably has a much, much better life perspective than many people far older than him. 

There's a certain comfort in knowing that whether one lives to be 80 or 20 life will always be a question of quality over quantity. 

Because the truth is none of us really have any "quantity" to play with; in the great scheme of time we are alive for a nanosecond.

We only think we have time and we burn up our little quantity of years in long collections of poor quality days.

You're right that this is a reality you can't escape (though I so wish you could). Of course, wishing is fruitless and painful. 

What we can't escape we must accept peacefully; there's really no alternative. I think it's the only way we can avoid feeling that we're 'living at the mercy' of the thing we can't change.

I just wish peaceful acceptance wasn't so hard to acquire. Because, for most of us, it really, really is.

Still, it's worth trying to obtain it because, when you see someone who has it, you realize how it is absolutely greatest gift we can give ourselves.

And I just hope we all find it ultimately.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

IndiaInk said:


> She told us that she has a deep trust and faith in God and that she accepts that this is a part of his plan. She doesn't ask for it to be different.
> 
> And she seemed to really mean that, because she was very calmly saying things that were making me feel absolutely miserable just to hear:
> 
> ...


Thank you, II.

It was really hard last year when ds relapsed. We were not expecting it at all. He had been in remission for 3 years.

I just don't feel like there is anything we can do. He has signed up with Make a Wish, so we will see what happens with that.

He does schoolwork, but I don't push it. He has a lot of free time. 

He does not want to go to France this summer to visit his grandparents, so he will just stay home with me. We really just try to see that he enjoys every day.

When he was first diagnosed, 4 years ago, I felt like our family had gone to live on an island. While we could wave to everybody else, all the normal people on the mainland, we knew we were forever different from them, there on the island. I so did not want to be on the island.

Last year I could not stop crying. I just mourned for 7 weeks. Then I found the Lorna Byrne books on angels, and they really calmed me. I believe we all came from heaven, and we are all going back to heaven. We are just having experiences here.

I think we will lose ds someday, and that will be a burden to carry our whole lives. Dh and I will lean on one another to bear it.

It really puts all these problems into perspective.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

It definitely puts my problems into perspective. Thank you for sharing. I have a child custody trial starting tomorrow involving a 6 year old boy who lost his mother following a head on collision with a drunk driver. Being a domestic attorney gives me unique perspective on the world and makes me appreciate what I have even if it is less than ideal. My problem are often trivial compare to jld's or those of many of my clients 




jld said:


> Thank you, II.
> 
> It was really hard last year when ds relapsed. We were not expecting it at all. He had been in remission for 3 years.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jd08 said:


> My problem are often trivial compare to jld's or those of many of my clients ._Posted via Mobile Device_


That does not make them any less real to you. Most all of us can point to some one else that has bigger problems than we do. That does not negate the pain we feel and mean that we should not strive to fix those problems. But it can give us strength to move forward.


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## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

jd08 said:


> It definitely puts my problems into perspective. My problem are often trivial compare to jld's or those of many of my clients
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with Tall Average Guy's response to this. It also sounds like a cop out to continue to do nothing. Any problem threatening the quality and state of a marriage and family is not trivial. However, you now seem content to accept being treated this way, so best of luck.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

Starting MC tomorrow with a licensed counselor. We were referred by some friends with the same issue. So we will see where that goes. Still not expecting anything but if there is improvement then great.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Good luck JD. Don't expect too much on the first visit and do expect to leave wondering what the hell you got into. You'll be okay.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

The way I see this is if I am putting in a high level of effort, in a variety of areas, to improve the lives of my family in general and my partner in particular, she needs to do the same. Optimally she would be a full 50% partner overall, but her doing somewhat less is fine as I don't mind doing the heavy lifting (to an extent).

But, skating by is not an option. My family (immediate and extended) grew up with a strong principles of "everybody pulls together" and "nobody lives for free". You meet the needs of the family and the individuals within, and you can expect to receive the same in return.

What doesn't work is imbalance or "picking and choosing" when and how you want to contribute. You wouldn't let a capable child avoid all chores or not clean his room because it's boring. And no, I'm not saying a partner should be treated as a child. But, there is a minimum level contribution, depending on ability, that is required.

And, I think the key is that I expect the family members to be (again, in an age- and relationship-appropriate manner) diligent and pro-active in meeting those needs. For a partner/spouse, that means if you know I have certain needs, you don't skimp on quantity or quality, and you don't always wait to be asked. If there is a problem (either personally or relationally) you tackle it head-on.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

Our counselor suggested the love language quiz and we took that. So we are now working on doing small things in the other's language. They said start doing that to build trust back up before trying to have sex again. However, they also stressed the importance of sex numerous times. Overall I was pleased with how the session went.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Sounds like good news. Are you ok with her participating in sexual activities even if she's not really into it? Can't necessarily demand that someone be turned on, but you can ask that they willingly participate because thru love you. Sometimes this kind of participation can lead to interest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

What does she want from you, according to that analysis?

Is your wife happy in general?

Does being in sexless marriage disturb her? What did she tell the counselor?


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