# successful rugsweep?



## river rat

I'm posting this thread fully knowing that it will be controversial. I'm prepared to duck 2X4's so lay on if you feel the need. First, let me say that, had I the knowledge that I acquired from this forum, I would have taken a different path. If you look at my previous posts, you will find some discrepancy in the timeline. That was deliberate to protect anonymity. Dates are approximate. I apologize for the length of the story.
Now to my story. My wife and I celebrated our 25th anniversary in 2003. We went on our dream trip. People thought that we were newlyweds by our behavior. That year, she also went back to college to pursue her second degree. In 2004 things became a little strained. I was under a lot of stress at work, and having to work extra hours, as we had lost a partner. She was spending a lot of time at school and staying late to study. I chalked it up to the circumstances and believed we'd get it back to normal soon. You know the rest of the story. We were both changing clothes in our walk-in closet when I saw the passion mark on her neck. I questioned her about it. She didn't miss a beat, and simply said that I had done it. Not true; we hadn't been intimate in over a week. We had family visiting downstairs, and I chose not to create a confrontation at that time. My personality is that of a high achiever: "the buck stops here, failure is not an option, the captain of the ship is ultimately responsible," that sort of thinking. So I let the weekend pass until the relatives left. During that time I mulled over the situation, and concluded that this must have been all my fault. I became depressed. I considered suicide. I decided that I could not live with my failure, and came up with a plan. It was to look like an accident, which is really fairly easy, since as an outdoorsman, I have often seen accidents narrowly averted. On two occasions I almost went through with it. I was found out, and my plan was prevented. I hooked up with a very good therapist, who encouraged me to start meditation, and I read a lot of books on infidelity and how to recover one's self esteem. During this time I actually confronted my wife, and was met with denial and gas lighting. By then the signs of the affair were long over, and I had no way to confirm with evidence. During the years that followed I continued to get my act together (wish I'd done that 30 years earlier). We actually had discussions of infidelity in the abstract, regarding the how's, why's, and collateral damage of such a destructive decision. But she never actually admitted it. I stayed with her because I loved her, and because I did not want to inflict my pain on my children. I arrived at a peaceful state of mind. 
Which brings me to today, and the topic of my thread. A week ago, we were having a conversation, and she remarked, " I want to thank you for not leaving me." I knew at that point, that if I wanted to get the full truth, that was the moment. But I made a decision. I am happy with my life. I have moved past all the pain and confusion of those years. The only thing to be gained, would be to allow her to assuage her guilt. I chose to let that moment pass.


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## alte Dame

Not everybody needs the details. You knew the basic truth and she knew that you knew. You feel that that is enough.

Having her implicitly confirm the affair, though, may, in fact prey on your mind. You may find that this turn of events brings the dirt out from under the rug. Time will tell.


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## thatbpguy

I'm thinking you have empowered her now to betray you when she feels the need due to your actions.

Forgiveness is fine. Reconciliation is fine. 

But to not require accountability and empower a spouse to betray is not rug sweeping- it's giving up.


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## StillSearching

The 10 year span has helped you with the details. I found the same marks all over my wife on DDay. Details to me were important then. Here 10 years later they would not be. I think you did the right thing. Just keep her close and always have your guard near.


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## Shaggy

And yet you do not know if the affair is still active but much better hidden.


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## MattMatt

alte Dame said:


> Not everybody needs the details. You knew the basic truth and she knew that you knew. You feel that that is enough.
> 
> Having her implicitly confirm the affair, though, may, in fact prey on your mind. You may find that this turn of events brings the dirt out from under the rug. Time will tell.


I didn't want any details. 

I think they would have destroyed me, to be honest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## river rat

Thanks for the conversation, guys. Let me share what I've learned. My therapist was a former evangelical preacher, turned Buddhist (now that's an interesting combination). We spent many sessions and a lot of hours discussing Ecclesiastes. One day he said, "The point of all this is: Can you live with uncertainty?" The answer was yes, in all aspects of my life. Interestingly, after the initial confrontation, which occurred two years after the affair, my wife, without any urging from me, became completely transparent. It was as if she'd found this forum and was doing all the things a WW must do to reconcile. I have verified from time to time by snooping, using the techniques that I found here. Nada. Now knowing what to look for, I think that if something were still going on, I'd see some sign of it. But of course, one is never certain of anything. But I can live with that. I will admit that there may be a little vindictiveness in deflecting what may have been, on her part, an effort to bring it out into the open. I read that as perhaps ongoing guilt and pain on her part. I was just not willing to open an old wound. I've made my peace with it - alone. She will have find her own way- alone.


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## happyman64

river rat said:


> Thanks for the conversation, guys. Let me share what I've learned. My therapist was a former evangelical preacher, turned Buddhist (now that's an interesting combination). We spent many sessions and a lot of hours discussing Ecclesiastes. One day he said, "The point of all this is: Can you live with uncertainty?" The answer was yes, in all aspects of my life. Interestingly, after the initial confrontation, which occurred two years after the affair, my wife, without any urging from me, became completely transparent. It was as if she'd found this forum and was doing all the things a WW must do to reconcile. I have verified from time to time by snooping, using the techniques that I found here. Nada. Now knowing what to look for, I think that if something were still going on, I'd see some sign of it. But of course, one is never certain of anything. But I can live with that. I will admit that there may be a little vindictiveness in deflecting what may have been, on her part, an effort to bring it out into the open. I read that as perhaps ongoing guilt and pain on her part. I was just not willing to open an old wound. I've made my peace with it - alone. She will have find her own way- alone.


River Rat

All I will say is this.

*Good for You!*

Do not let anyone define you but you!

HM64


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## KimatraAKM

I'd say it's different for each person. If you've forgiven her and there is no sign that she's cheating again there isn't a reason for it.

Only ask if you feel you want and can know. Why upset a marriage that seems to be going alright. 

With mine I had to know everything up front. Unfortunately knowing everything only made it worse and I grew bitter. Now those mind movies are even worse and I find myself feeling angry every now and again even 4 years later. It even spawned the want for a revenge affair.. 

Let sleeping dragons lie, don't wake them up unless you're willing to fight them.


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## thatbpguy

river rat said:


> I have moved past all the pain and confusion of those years. The only thing to be gained, would be to allow her to assuage her guilt. I chose to let that moment pass.


Perhaps she was wanting to confess and to hear you say you have forgiven her.

Maybe you missed your cue.


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## Squeakr

Congrats on finding your comfort zone and living within it.

I do find it odd that no one is on here belittling like other similar threads, where acceptance is considered grounds for judgement and branding. Sometimes this place amazes me, how similar situations yield such different resulting posts???


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## Acabado

river rat said:


> Which brings me to today, and the topic of my thread. A week ago, we were having a conversation, and she remarked, "I want to thank you for not leaving me." I knew at that point, that if I wanted to get the full truth, that was the moment. But *I made a decision*. I am happy with my life. I have moved past all the pain and confusion of those years. The only thing to be gained, would be to allow her to assuage her guilt. I chose to let that moment pass.


It's ok for me. A sound decision, taken after knowing every path at hand.

Implicitly she let you know she cheated on you, that she's sorry she did, that's she's grateful you didn't dump her.
You - also tacitly - accepted her apology and gratitude.
It seems you slowly managed to come to grips with what happened, on your own. Clear indicatiopn of inner strength.
You don't need the minutiae anymore.


> Interestingly, after the initial confrontation, which occurred two years after the affair, my wife, without any urging from me, became completely transparent. It was as if she'd found this forum and was doing all the things a WW must do to reconcile.


This, along with her apology/gratitude speech is also indicative of soul searching, of affair proofing herself (built on remorse no doubt) and empathy. Maybe she was aware you checked on her once in while and decided to regain you trust.
I'd dare to say this conversation was another chance she's giving you to drag the truth out of her. She's, somehow, guiding you, telling you she's ready and willing to deal with it if you choose it.

You (as a couple) swept it under the carpet but it seems you guys dealt with it as individuals. 

You are happy. She seems happy too.
It's OK.


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## Acabado

Don't we say here actions speak louder than words? She let her actions speak for herself.


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## Shaggy

And yet because of the choice, you only know that your snooping has revealed nothing so far. Because you do not know the extent of her cheating, or who it is with, you cannot truly know it is over, or won't resurface, and that it isn't someone you still call a friend.

I could not live with such uncertainty of the past, because it denies me knowledge to use in directing my future.


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## river rat

thatbpguy said:


> Perhaps she was wanting to confess and to hear you say you have forgiven her.
> 
> Maybe you missed your cue.


I read her statement the same way as you. But I chose to leave it there. No reason to dig up an old grave. And I think she knows that I have forgiven her. I hope so.


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## river rat

Squeakr said:


> Congrats on finding your comfort zone and living within it.
> 
> I do find it odd that no one is on here belittling like other similar threads, where acceptance is considered grounds for judgement and branding. Sometimes this place amazes me, how similar situations yield such different resulting posts???


 I was expecting a much harsher response.


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## river rat

Shaggy said:


> And yet because of the choice, you only know that your snooping has revealed nothing so far. Because you do not know the extent of her cheating, or who it is with, you cannot truly know it is over, or won't resurface, and that it isn't someone you still call a friend.
> 
> I could not live with such uncertainty of the past, because it denies me knowledge to use in directing my future.


 Shaggy, I have always respected your opinions. I understand your point. The memory still lingers, like an unpleasant odor. I still can recall all the sorrow, fear, and rage. I choose not to keep them in the front of my vision. I choose not to let the past plot my path into the future. Oh, and I'm pretty certain that I know who he is; I almost lost it and decked him at a public function. Glad I didn't. It wouldn't have fixed what's wrong with him, and it wouldn't have fixed me.


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## river rat

michzz said:


> Since your mind is made up on your course of action I have only two comments.
> 
> Use paragraphs, that long posting was difficult to read!
> 
> Get tested for STDs. Since you are not interested in details from her, maybe you want to find out if there are deadly microbes from her encounter(s) swirling in your blood stream.


 Sorry for the difficulty w/ structure. I know better. As for testing, I got that done years ago.


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## Acabado

Please, skip, just discard the entire post if you don't want to read about out desperate reaction after DDay1.


river rat said:


> During that time I mulled over the situation, and concluded that this must have been all my fault. I became depressed. I considered suicide. I decided that I could not live with my failure, and came up with a plan. It was to look like an accident, which is really fairly easy, since as an outdoorsman, I have often seen accidents narrowly averted. On two occasions I almost went through with it. I was found out, and my plan was prevented.


Was your wife who found out your plans? Didn't she ask why? Didn't you have a serious talk about the reason of your depression? Did you put it on different issues aside your suspicions?
I find hard to believe she didn't blame herself and break down back then and even gaslighted you two years later. Maybe she thought confession would out you back rigth close the cliff.


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## aug

How do you know the OM is not one of your friends?

How do you know there weren't more than one OM?

And, I'll put this out there, how do you know the kids are yours?


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## aug

river rat said:


> Shaggy, I have always respected your opinions. I understand your point. The memory still lingers, like an unpleasant odor. I still can recall all the sorrow, fear, and rage. I choose not to keep them in the front of my vision. *I choose not to let the past plot my path into the future. *Oh, and I'm pretty certain that I know who he is; I almost lost it and decked him at a public function. Glad I didn't. It wouldn't have fixed what's wrong with him, and it wouldn't have fixed me.



But unfortunately, it has. Her cheating changed you and affect your decisions. If she hadn't cheated, would you be in this frame of mind? Would you even be on TAM?


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## Acabado

aug said:


> But unfortunately, it has. Her cheating changed you and affect your decisions. If she hadn't cheated, would you be in this frame of mind? Would you even be on TAM?


He has been dealing with it for years, read everything, posted here, IC...
He has found out his way to peace.
That's what really matters.


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## BjornFree

The fact that she expressed gratitude was her way of giving you an opening to get her to confess, she's probably glad that you let it pass. And I assume you've decided to let sleeping dogs lie. To each his own. I wish you a good life.

But a word of advice,don't be afraid to rock the boat when you need to for the fear of an uncertain future after all, you yourself admitted that you can live with uncertainty.


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## aug

Acabado said:


> He has been dealing with it for years, read everything, posted here, IC...
> *He has found out his way to peace.*
> That's what really matters.


If he's at peace, why is he asking "successful rugsweep?"


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## Iver

I'm glad you found something that works for you; others may disagree with your methods but they got you were you need to be so good for you.

Is the OM (pardon me...the POSOM) still in your circle? Is he someone who would come into contact with your wife? 

The reason I'm asking is one plus for confrontation/exposure is it's supposed to help keep "re-ignition" from happening.

I hope all this is behind you now but if you've read any of the threads here you know that is a possibilty...


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## StillSearching

river rat said:


> Shaggy, I have always respected your opinions. I understand your point. The memory still lingers, like an unpleasant odor. I still can recall all the sorrow, fear, and rage. I choose not to keep them in the front of my vision. I choose not to let the past plot my path into the future. Oh, and I'm pretty certain that I know who he is; I almost lost it and decked him at a public function. Glad I didn't. It wouldn't have fixed what's wrong with him, and it wouldn't have fixed me.


I don't know but I've heard that a trip to jail does wonders for person.


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## StillSearching

aug said:


> If he's at peace, why is he asking "successful rugsweep?"


I was thinking the same thing.


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## Acabado

aug said:


> If he's at peace, why is he asking "successful rugsweep?"


He's perfectly aware his way is not the TAM way. He already anticipated the 2x4 coming.
When I read his posts here I sense peace and get where it comes from.


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## StillSearching

I think we all come here for one reason or another. Never because we are at peace. Just MHO. No matter how small that bug is, it's still bitting us.


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## alte Dame

This place is so filled with brutal stories of pain and unhappiness and the experienced posters, in my opinion, want more than anything that the OP's find happy futures for themselves. When it looks very much like they are headed for train wrecks, the 2X4's definitely come out.

With this thread, though, RR says that he is happy and that his W has atoned in her own way, so why would there be a need for harshness? It seems to me that harsh responses serve no purpose here and OP is thus not getting them.

I can get on board with the idea that there is some measure of peace in what RR describes, but it strikes me as a relative peace, since his recent interaction with his W has prompted him to post this. So, in my mind not a perfect peace, but perfection is an illusion, no doubt.

We all try to get to a place that we can manage to live with. Hopefully it's a good place. (My own marriage is worlds happier now than it was 20 years ago. Some of those bad times are definitely best left forgotten.)


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## awake1

It's my impression you're settling for fear of rocking the boat. 

There's a high chance whatever you suspect, is probably the tip of the iceberg. Many TAMers convince themselves it was one guy or girl, one night and later to come to find out it was going on under their nose the whole time. Or it was a dozen times or multiple partners or the kids arent even theirs. 

It's my impression you want to hide from the truth. I don't think you want to dig for skeletons because you don't know how many you'll find. 

I say bring in the back hoe and digem up. 


It's better to tear down a rickety shack and build a new house, than pretend the roof doesn't leak and the floors aren't crooked.


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## bandit.45

Read *S4E's *threads. 

In ten years you will be in the same place he is.


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## Acabado

bandit.45 said:


> Read *S4E's *threads.
> 
> In ten years you will be in the same place he is.


I thihk you are wong here bandit.
RR was already in that hell years ago and has been slowly coming out of it. So much he decided - just when her wife cued him after 7 years - he didn't need it at then end.

To me it's exactly the opposite scenario than S4E.


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## sirdano

That is awesome you did not choose the distructive path! When I found out I did not want any details either. We worked out our issues with MC and been better since.

I truly don't understand the people that want every detail on what they did how they did it and where. It only matters if you want to fix what we had and move on or move out.


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## Woodchuck

river rat said:


> I read her statement the same way as you. But I chose to leave it there. No reason to dig up an old grave. And I think she knows that I have forgiven her. I hope so.


Tell her....

the woodchuck


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## the guy

Its saddens me to know that I dealt with Mrs. the-guy 1st infidelity decades a go in such a unhealthy way, and taking it out on her hide rather then dealing with it in a healthier way.

Some how the planet aligned and it worked out for you.

Me on the other hand took rug sweeping to a very low and violent level! 

Back in the day beating her was my way of rug sweeping...only to see that it did us no good decades later as she continued to sleep around and I emotionally moved further away from my marriage.


Anybody got a time machine for sale?


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## the guy

sirdano said:


> That is awesome you did not choose the distructive path! When I found out I did not want any details either. We worked out our issues with MC and been better since.
> 
> I truly don't understand the people that want every detail on what they did how they did it and where. It only matters if you want to fix what we had and move on or move out.


I needed to know what she had become after years of fat lips and swollen faces I had given her.


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## the guy

alte Dame said:


> Some of those bad times are definitely best left forgotten.)


Part of us want to agree with this but then there is a part that needs us to bring up those bad times from time to time, to feel the *sting* of what we were once were and how important it is to keep your bad behaviors in check and see the rewards we both have for sticking it out and making the changes that bring us these rewards.

Granted there is a time and place for everything and even though we don't talk about the past often, sometimes it just needs to be brought up when a GNO is reguested or my anger gets out of hand...and these days both cases are far and few between.


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## sirdano

the guy said:


> I needed to know what she had become after years of fat lips and swollen faces I had given her.


Wow I can't say anything to this it would get me band from here. So all I can say is may God have mercy on your soul


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## LostViking

Acabado said:


> I thihk you are wong here bandit.
> RR was already in that hell years ago and has been slowly coming out of it. So much he decided - just when her wife cued him after 7 years - he didn't need it at then end.
> 
> To me it's exactly the opposite scenario than S4E.


I disagree. 

He's setting himself up for heartache down the road. He just taught her to expect him to do nothing whenever she decides to step out on him. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostViking

sirdano said:


> Wow I can't say anything to this it would get me band from here. So all I can say is may God have mercy on your soul


At least he can't be termed a beta male.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jeepgal

MattMatt said:


> I didn't want any details.
> 
> I think they would have destroyed me, to be honest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes to this. They will scoop out your insides and leave you hollow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

sirdano said:


> Wow I can't say anything to this it would get me band from here. So all I can say is may God have mercy on your soul


God has shown us awsome mercy.
She hasn't been with another man in over three years. I haven't lifted a hand to her in over 5 years...or seven ..I forgot. 

The point to all of this is with the right tools one can change and affair proof a marriage just like with the right tools one can stop being abusivr and angry.

BTW we just had our 23rd anni last March, but the way we see it we celibrated our 3rd anni in April.

So ya after all the crap in the past, I have to say God most deffinately had a hand in getting both me and Mrs. the guy were we are today.

I hope OP is in the same boat, I hope his marriage is healthier and strong then it eve was before...no matter what bull crap happened in the past.


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## the guy

jeepgal said:


> Yes to this. They will scoop out your insides and leave you hollow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't have any insides left, so I figured what the hell...lets hear about the 20 other OM from the last 13 years.

To say the least it was an eye opener. A very painful eye opener.

But then again I'm wired alot different then most.


I think we all can aggree that rug sweeping infidelity and adultory is bad...but then again we are all wired a little differently. So in this rare case it may have been the way to go...again *in this rare case*!!!!!


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## the guy

LostViking said:


> I disagree.
> 
> He's setting himself up for heartache down the road. He just taught her to expect him to do nothing whenever she decides to step out on him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't disaggree with you cuz you have a valid point.

But there is another side to the coin here.

Shemay have not liked what she had become and her moral compase has pointed her in a healthier direction all on her own.

I can tell you from experience, it may have nothing to do with OP but, his old lady just didn't like what she was becoming and took the step to change.

I think we both can speculate, but only time will tell.


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## Acabado

OP just didn't buried it. He dealt whith it. For twelve years.
Enyone can look at his profile, just toke the time put here his remaining? old threads to gain some perspective.
Longterm recovery (January 2012)


river rat said:


> *I'm almost 12 yrs out from D day*. I'm glad to say we're still together and happy. Most of all, I'm happy with myself. I'm posting just to offer support to those who are still in the throes of recent discovery. *I've been lurking here for a few years*. The advice from a lot of these folks is very beneficial. Some reflect great wisdom, even in the extremes of their pain. Some reflect bitterness, which, in my experience, is something we have to cleanse from ourselves; no one else can do it for you. Sharing your pain will help. There is no one formula for success, whether you divorce or reconcile. *Hang in there. Life can be good if you let it. *





river rat said:


> The pertinent details: We were going through some rough water at that point- a young adult daughter w/ special needs and problems w/ her aging parents. She'd gone back to school for another degree- hence, the exposure to potential partners. I was in a high-stress job working 60-70 hrs a week. You can connect the dots and see where this is going. Anyway, one morning I was getting dressed for work when she came into the walk-in closet after her shower. There was a purple mark on her neck. I couldn't believe it. We'd not been intimate for a couple of weeks due to all the family stress. I pointed it out, and she just claimed that I must have put it there. There were guests in the house (her parents), so I didn't feel that I could make a scene at the time. I made all the mistakes that folks relate on this site. Went thru the denial, rug sweeping, gas lighting. Actually endured this for several years. *Went through counseling, got a handle on my own problems. Came out the other side intact. It can be done.*


Trigger this far out (February 2012)


river rat said:


> I'm over a decade out from d-day, and overall doing well. Obviously, I still have some issues, or I wouldn't be here. We're still together. The WW has done everything possible to maintain our relationship- transparency, accountability, honesty- she could have written one of the how-to books. Overall, I'm happy w/ us and w/ myself. But a couple of nights ago, we went to see the Geo Clooney film "The Descendants." I don't think she knew the plot. But I had read a review, and knew what was coming. I just couldn't find a good excuse to avoid the movie, and she wanted to see it. Interestingly, I didn't have the visceral reactions that I've had in the past to such movies, i.e., "Bridges of ******* County." I thought that I must have healed enough that I could deal with the story objectively. Wrong! Since seeing it, I find myself obsessing again, looking for signs of a problem; actually went thru her cell and Facebook. Didn't find anything, and really felt somewhat guilty and stupid. I guess it just never ends.





river rat said:


> Thanks for the support. I really don't have anyone else to talk to about it. None of my friends even know about this. I had a great therapist whom I saw for a couple of years. He guided me into meditation, which has been a life saver- literally. Unfortunately, he has a chronic illness, which has impaired his ability to continue counseling. *At this point, I don't feel inclined to look for another therapist. I honestly think that this episode of triggering will pass. Just needed some reassurance.*


Continued healing RR.


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## Thundarr

river rat said:


> Thanks for the conversation, guys. Let me share what I've learned. My therapist was a former evangelical preacher, turned Buddhist (now that's an interesting combination). We spent many sessions and a lot of hours discussing Ecclesiastes. One day he said, "The point of all this is: Can you live with uncertainty?" The answer was yes, in all aspects of my life. Interestingly, after the initial confrontation, which occurred two years after the affair, my wife, without any urging from me, became completely transparent. It was as if she'd found this forum and was doing all the things a WW must do to reconcile. I have verified from time to time by snooping, using the techniques that I found here. Nada. Now knowing what to look for, I think that if something were still going on, I'd see some sign of it. But of course, one is never certain of anything. But I can live with that. I will admit that there may be a little vindictiveness in deflecting what may have been, on her part, an effort to bring it out into the open. I read that as perhaps ongoing guilt and pain on her part. I was just not willing to open an old wound. I've made my peace with it - alone. She will have find her own way- alone.


I'm conflicted river. I don't know whether to say "WTH are you thinking" or to say "You're a better man than I". Either way I am very envious of you because I don't think I could have made my peace with it. That's a quality that so few of us (men) have. It's a valid argument that she should live with her own guilt and not place it on you. It's also very important though that she's transparent (which you say she is) and that you know what your boundaries are and react based on character and not fear if red flags ever start popping up.


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## Bricko

RR

How much did meditation and the books help you?
Which books do you recommend?
That is an interesting combination of evangelical and buddhism for your counselor.
I have recently began to appreciate what little I have learned about buddhism.


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## theroad

sirdano said:


> That is awesome you did not choose the distructive path! When I found out I did not want any details either. We worked out our issues with MC and been better since.
> 
> I truly don't understand the people that want every detail on what they did how they did it and where. It only matters if you want to fix what we had and move on or move out.


You can not see the forest for the trees are in the way.

You found out there was an affair. Your spouse admitted to it.

The OP spouse has been keep in denial of an affair by his WW. He never got his confirmantion.

Every BS is different in the level of learning about the details of their WW affair. You needed none. A lot need to hear every detail.


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## theroad

River rat is still rug sweeping the affair.

Talking to us is not dealing with the affair. When can help him deal with the affair.

Though the actual dealing of the affair can only be done by talking with his WW.

She opened the door with the staying with me remark.

River rat needs to grab that door knob and open the talk with his WW. Ask WW/Mrs Rat why did you tell thank you for staying married.


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## theroad

He is here because the affair wound has never been cleanded out.

His WW has never healed because she has not been made to own up to what she did to her BH.

For them to both heal the wound must be cleaned. That will inly happen when the truth comes out.

They both have been living an ok life instead of a good life because they are both still ignoring the elephant in the middle of their lives.

Both wondering is there going to be a dday. wondering how each will resound to the truth when it comes out.

This is the first thought on their mind everyday and their last thought as they go to sleep.

He is not healed. He is here trying to convince himself that he is.

Believing a lie will never make it true.


----------



## river rat

Acabado said:


> Please, skip, just discard the entire post if you don't want to read about out desperate reaction after DDay1.
> Was your wife who found out your plans? Didn't she ask why? Didn't you have a serious talk about the reason of your depression? Did you put it on different issues aside your suspicions?
> I find hard to believe she didn't blame herself and break down back then and even gaslighted you two years later. Maybe she thought confession would out you back rigth close the cliff.


 She found a journal that I was using to keep myself focused on the objective. Her reaction was one of denial and panic. We never talked much about that, even years later, when I sought out a therapist. I offered many times to take her along to one of my sessions, but she always declined.


----------



## bfree

I'm happy you found a way to deal with it that works for you. I couldn't do what you have done. It would fester and rot my soul. My marriage is all about honesty and transparency. You've gone about as far from that as is humanly possible. Apparently it works for you so all I can say is good luck.


----------



## warlock07

Those are her own demons but we live in a age of narcissism and self centerdness. It is easy to get away without any guilt when you don't have to face what we did.

Did she even acknowledge her affair ?(Not the details but the acknowledgement) Yes, it is a successful rugsweep. But it is your own choice and what makes you happy is your own decision.

RR, do you think there are other paths you could have taken that leads to the same destination ?


----------



## river rat

warlock07 said:


> Those are her own demons but we live in a age of narcissism and self centerdness. It is easy to get away without any guilt when you don't have to face what we did.
> 
> Did she even acknowledge her affair ?(Not the details but the acknowledgement) Yes, it is a successful rugsweep. But it is your own choice and what makes you happy is your own decision.
> 
> RR, do you think there are other paths you could have taken that leads to the same destination ?


I would never have chosen this path. It kept me on the edge of total despair for years. When it started, I had no experience to guide me. I was unaware of sites like this one. I just blundered on for years. Finally, when I stopped leaning on my own ego and sought help, things started to come together for me. Basically, what I did was what so many of you have offered as the first step: take care of yourself. I wish to thank all of you for your insights. Someone asked why I ended the title of my thread w/ a question mark. It is because I know that all of life is full of uncertainty. As my therapist asked, "Can you live with uncertainty?" The answer for me is yes.


----------



## Acabado

river rat said:


> "Can you live with uncertainty?" The answer for me is yes.


For me too.
:iagree:


----------



## StillSearching

Acabado said:


> For me too.
> :iagree:


I do everyday as well.


----------



## alte Dame

river rat said:


> "Can you live with uncertainty?"


Not easily, to be honest.

I also have a hard time living with unhappy certainties and am always trying to improve things. A fool's errand often, I know.


----------



## Gabriel

Shaggy said:


> And yet because of the choice, you only know that your snooping has revealed nothing so far. Because you do not know the extent of her cheating, or who it is with, you cannot truly know it is over, or won't resurface, and that it isn't someone you still call a friend.
> 
> I could not live with such uncertainty of the past, because it denies me knowledge to use in directing my future.


I'm with Shaggy on this one. While I won't ridicule your choice, it's not something I could have done. Good for you though, for making peace with it.


----------



## LostViking

theroad said:


> He is here because the affair wound has never been cleanded out.
> 
> His WW has never healed because she has not been made to own up to what she did to her BH.
> 
> For them to both heal the wound must be cleaned. That will inly happen when the truth comes out.
> 
> They both have been living an ok life instead of a good life because they are both still ignoring the elephant in the middle of their lives.
> 
> Both wondering is there going to be a dday. wondering how each will resound to the truth when it comes out.
> 
> This is the first thought on their mind everyday and their last thought as they go to sleep.
> 
> He is not healed. He is here trying to convince himself that he is.
> 
> Believing a lie will never make it true.


I agree completely. 

RR is putting a bandaid on a gaping bullet hole and expecting that if he leaves it alone then it will heal by itself over time. The problem is even though he may be able intellectually block it out, the wound to his soul will continue to fester and stew underneath the scab. Some wounds can look healed and yet an abscess is growing and poisoning the psyche. My first wife cheated on me blatantly and even though I annulled that marriage, I never got the straight truth from her as to why I was not good enough for her. I carried that wound for twenty years, and the not knowing and built up resentment actually played havoc with my second failed marriage. 

RR is fooling himself if he thinks this is going to work in the long run. The truth needs to be torn out of her, thrown down on the slab and examined from one putrid end to the other. In my uninvited opinion I think the nature of her affair had aspects to it, that if they came to light, would be so unforgivable that RR would not even be able to look at his wife without revulsion and disgust. This what she fears and it is what he fears. So instead they pretend nothing really bad happened. I myself could not live with that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## river rat

Bricko said:


> RR
> 
> How much did meditation and the books help you?
> Which books do you recommend?
> That is an interesting combination of evangelical and buddhism for your counselor.
> I have recently began to appreciate what little I have learned about buddhism.


The meditation and books were the core of my self recovery. Good books: A Path With a Heart- Jack Kornfield; The Five Things We Cannot Change- David Richo; How to Be an Adult in Relationships- David Richo. arobuddhism.com is an interesting websit. I don't consider myself to be Buddhist, but my readings have given me a new perspective on Christianity.


----------



## Chris989

None of us could argue that RR has not thought this through in depth over many, many years.

Whatever this path is, or has been, it isn't one of rugsweeping.

There are a couple of recently active threads that are perfect examples of this and they have none of the insight, contemplation and awareness that RR shows.

Who knows which way is the 'right' way? You can only be happy in the moment - the past has gone and the future isn't here. I think RR has mastered this and the price for his peace was an internalised Hell for years.

I applaud you RiverRat. 

You sound like a cool dude.


----------



## lordmayhem

Just a few questions:


How do you know that the affair is over? We've had horrific stories of Long Term Affairs (LTAs) spanning 15 or more years
Did you ever find out who the OM was?
How do you know that she hasn't cheated again?
How do you know she isn't in an affair right now? 

*BUT* if you can live without knowing the answer to these basic questions, then this is a successful rugsweep. But if this is a successful rugsweep, the very fact that you're here in Coping With Infidelity shows that this is bothering you to some degree.


----------



## warlock07

river rat said:


> I would never have chosen this path. It kept me on the edge of total despair for years. When it started, I had no experience to guide me. I was unaware of sites like this one. I just blundered on for years. Finally, when I stopped leaning on my own ego and sought help, things started to come together for me. Basically, what I did was what so many of you have offered as the first step: take care of yourself. I wish to thank all of you for your insights. Someone asked why I ended the title of my thread w/ a question mark. It is because I know that all of life is full of uncertainty. As my therapist asked, "Can you live with uncertainty?" The answer for me is yes.


Why do you still need her then ?


----------



## lordmayhem

warlock07 said:


> Why do you still need her then ?


Thats what I was wondering. Then I read that he loved her so much and didn't want to inflict his pain on their children. Classic codependency.


----------



## StillSearching

lordmayhem said:


> Thats what I was wondering. Then I read that he loved her so much and didn't want to inflict his pain on their children. Classic codependency.


Is not the definition of marriage codependency?


----------



## Chris989

MrBrains said:


> Is not the definition of marriage codependency?


I see your point, but I think there is a definition where you both more or less live individual lives that happen to coincide where you both want to be.

I don't buy that, as it isn't a marriage I would want, but I can see how there would be a train of thought like that.


----------



## Thundarr

MrBrains said:


> Is not the definition of marriage codependency?


I don't think so. Here's a snippet from Wikipedia which we all know is gospel.

_Codependency can happen with occur in any type of relationship, including family, work, friendship, and also romantic, peer or community relationships.[2] Codependency may also be characterized by denial, low self-esteem, excessive compliance, or control patterns.[2] Narcissists are considered to be natural magnets for the codependent._

What I think that means is, if you and your spouse place each other's need at equal importance with your own then it's not codependent by the classic definition. I think codependant's are often martyrs or enablers or both and are over protecting and tolerating bad dynamics from their partner.


----------



## bfree

I think the problem is the word codependency. If you think about it we are all codependent on each other to a certain extent. And the closer the relationship the more codependent we are. And frankly a certain amount of codependency is necessary for any healthy relationship. It is when the codependency becomes unhealthy and one loses sight of the individual that an issue occurs. It's just like anything else. Some may be healthy but too much of anything is harmful.


----------



## river rat

lordmayhem said:


> Thats what I was wondering. Then I read that he loved her so much and didn't want to inflict his pain on their children. Classic codependency.


 I took a while to ponder this post. Very insightful. That's exactly where I was when this mess all started. It was how I conducted my life. I felt that I was responsible for the outcome of all relationships in my life, personal and professional. I approached these things as if my entire self worth relied on success in these relationships. It created an intensity that allowed me to succeed, at least on the surface; so much so, that I was willing to kill myself if I felt that I had failed. That's my point. My path, while excruciating, has allowed me to move past all that. I am not responsible for the happiness of others, only for my own. Whatever someone else has done in the past, is not my problem. Only the way forward matters now. My WW's behavior over the subsequent years indicates that she has atoned for what she did. I can assure you that if I found myself in the predicament I was in so many years ago, I would do exactly as some of you have done- I'd walk away from it.


----------



## LostViking

Truth cannot be stuffed unde a bed or buried in the woods in a shallow grave. That is what your wife did. 

So do you have a contingency plan for when something or someone uncovers that truth? Could be five or ten or twenty years down the road. What if your loving wife cracks from the guilt and shouts the truth at an anniversary dinner, or a family get together? What are you going to do when the truth unearths itself? Are you ready?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## river rat

Well, it's been awhile since I updated this thread. My FWW and I are still together. There has been no suspicion of inappropriate behavior. We are still sexually intimate. Overall, I am content with life. However, my ability to trust has never returned. I think that if we had addressed the issue when it occurred, I might have been able to heal, or I might be gone completely from this relationship. Now, as we enter retirement, we are good companions with benefits. But for me at least, there is no emotional intimacy. If she walked out tomorrow, I'd be ok. As a cautionary tale, this is the cost of infidelity.


----------



## jb02157

river rat said:


> I chose to let that moment pass.


Sounds like a invitation to let her do it again. You need to make her give you transparancy to all her activities, phone and accountability and verification of what she does when she's gone. With no consequences to her, she'll just do it again.


----------



## convert

river rat said:


> Well, it's been awhile since I updated this thread. My FWW and I are still together. There has been no suspicion of inappropriate behavior. We are still sexually intimate. Overall, I am content with life. *However, my ability to trust has never returned*. I think that if we had addressed the issue when it occurred, I might have been able to heal, or I might be gone completely from this relationship. Now, as we enter retirement, we are good companions with benefits. But for me at least, there is no emotional intimacy. If she walked out tomorrow, I'd be ok. As a cautionary tale, this is the cost of infidelity.


even without rug sweeping I don't think trust will ever be as it was before the affair, with me at least.
and I had blind trust in my ww, which is never a good thing anyway.


----------



## river rat

jb, I have all of that- transparency, passwords, etc. She did all that on her own. I doubt that she would ever risk doing it again. The cost would be nuclear for her. Our kids and the people of this community believe that she is a saint. The loss of that would be intolerable to her.


----------



## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> Well, it's been awhile since I updated this thread. My FWW and I are still together. There has been no suspicion of inappropriate behavior. We are still sexually intimate. Overall, I am content with life. However, my ability to trust has never returned. I think that if we had addressed the issue when it occurred, I might have been able to heal, or I might be gone completely from this relationship. Now, as we enter retirement, we are good companions with benefits. But for me at least, there is no emotional intimacy. If she walked out tomorrow, I'd be ok. As a cautionary tale, this is the cost of infidelity.


Do you really want to live the rest of your lifer with no emotional intimacy with a woman who doesn't care if you healed properly or not? Just a question - I'm not trying to be difficult. sounds like a miserable way to go.


----------



## Graywolf2

river rat said:


> A week ago, we were having a conversation, and she remarked, " I want to thank you for not leaving me." I knew at that point, that if I wanted to get the full truth, that was the moment. But I made a decision. I am happy with my life. *I have moved past all the pain *and confusion of those years. The only thing to be gained, would be to allow her to assuage her guilt. I chose to let that moment pass.


That may have been true once but it doesn’t sound like it still is. You have a problem with it and I would too. Everyone thinks your wife is a saint and she’s fine with pretending it didn’t happen. 

She’s had no repercussions at all. Not even an uncomfortable conversation with you. If she’s going to have this grand retirement with you I would at least want to set the record straight. The only way I could ever be close to her again is to see true remorse and be asked to forgive her.



river rat said:


> But for me at least, there is no emotional intimacy. If she walked out tomorrow, I'd be ok. As a cautionary tale, this is the cost of infidelity.


Why don’t you discuss it? It think it would be worth the gamble. You might regain your emotional intimacy and if you break up it sounds like you would be fine.

EDIT:

More men than you would think rug sweep and something triggers them years later. Others overlook small facts and something causes them to put in all together years later. Did something trigger you? My guess would be the upcoming retirement.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Graywolf2 said:


> Why don’t you discuss it? It might be worth the gamble. You might regain your emotional intimacy and if you break up it sounds like you would be fine.
> 
> 
> 
> *That may have been true once but it doesn’t sound like it still is. You have a problem with it and I would too. Everyone thinks your wife is a saint and she’s fine with pretending it didn’t happen.
> 
> She’s had no repercussions at all. Not even an uncomfortable conversation with you. If she’s going to have this grand retirement with you I would at least want to set the record straight. The only way I could ever be close to her again is to see true remorse and be asked to forgive her.*


Exactly!! She got away with it and RR is still dealing with the pain. i know I would have tormented her till I got the truth - whether I decided to R or D I could have wanted the truth and then decide from there.


----------



## badmemory

river rat said:


> As a cautionary tale, this is the cost of infidelity.


It is also the cost of rug sweeping her affair.


----------



## Truthseeker1

badmemory said:


> It is also the cost of rug sweeping her affair.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: Absolutely..without the truth there can be no healing and true reconciliation - what you have here is a false peace. This thread actually triggers me and puts my stomach in knots.


----------



## river rat

TS1, I am sorry that the thread has triggered you; not my intent at all. I was just reflecting on where I've been and where I've arrived. I actually am in a place of peace. It is not perfect, but nothing in life is. My path is not one that I'd recommend to anyone else.


----------



## Dyokemm

"My path is not one that I'd recommend to anyone else."

river rat,

I'm glad you recognize this...but it makes me curious about one thing.

If you KNOW the path you took is the wrong one for a BS to take, why do you continue to walk it?

I think at this point in your lives, your WW would be far more frightened than you to lose her life and M.

Why don't you DEMAND from her the information and things you need to fully heal?

If she balks and runs, you have already shared you would be fine without her...sounds like you have totally detached.

Why not run the risk on the hope that closure and healing could lead to you to having very meaningful and connected 'golden years' if she does what is necessary for you to fully R?

In the situation, as you describe it, what do you really have to lose?


----------



## GusPolinski




----------



## GusPolinski

river rat said:


> Blah blah blah
> 
> Wife cheated
> 
> Blah blah blah
> 
> Rugswept
> 
> Blah blah blah blah blah
> 
> Which brings me to today, and the topic of my thread. A week ago, we were having a conversation, and she remarked, " I want to thank you for not leaving me."


Well, it's not too late.



river rat said:


> I knew at that point, that if I wanted to get the full truth, that was the moment. But I made a decision. I am happy with my life. I have moved past all the pain and confusion of those years. The only thing to be gained, would be to allow her to assuage her guilt. I chose to let that moment pass.


Eh... maybe it is.

Is it only me, or does it just seem wrong to anyone else to use the words "successful" and "rugsweep" in the same sentence, let alone adjacent to one another...?


----------



## MarriedTex

If this truly were not bugging you, would you actually be back here updating this thread? Me doth think you protest too much.

Is she aware of your outlook related to the infidelity? Or are you shouldering this burden alone? 

In terms of the title of this thread: "Successful Rugsweep": I would say that it has been for her. No meaningful consequences. For you, not so much. Even if you don't want to learn the details or re-visit the incident, you can at least let her know that it continues to cause you pain. Perhaps that may open the window to healing.


----------



## alte Dame

I remember your story, rr. I thought at the time that she knew you knew the whole time and she should have honored you enough to volunteer the truth.

Instead, you both live with the elephant in the room. It's your choice, of course, but I can't help but feel that her choice to stay silent, all the time knowing that you must be in pain, diminishes both of you.

For what it's worth, I don't consider this rugsweeping. I consider it denial. I think many couples must live this way, though. I have friends who are sure that their husbands have been unfaithful, but have no proof and are afraid to push the issue. That covert knowledge has definitely diminished them and their marriages.

I'm sorry that your trust is gone, and glad that you are at peace. I don't think there are any good answers for the pain and damage that infidelity causes. Beckett wrote, 'I can't go on, I'll go on.' That's how we feel & that's what we do.


----------



## MattMatt

Truthseeker1 said:


> Do you really want to live the rest of your lifer with no emotional intimacy with a woman who doesn't care if you healed properly or not? Just a question - I'm not trying to be difficult. sounds like a miserable way to go.


She probably thinks that all is well. The knowledge that her husband feels this way might devastate her. 

But she caused it...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> TS1, I am sorry that the thread has triggered you; not my intent at all. I was just reflecting on where I've been and where I've arrived. I actually am in a place of peace. It is not perfect, but nothing in life is. My path is not one that I'd recommend to anyone else.


No apology necessary. You just don't seem at peace to me - you seem like a man with an open wound that has not been allowed to heal. You wife seems not to care and that is troubling to me.


----------



## Truthseeker1

MattMatt said:


> She probably thinks that all is well. The knowledge that her husband feels this way might devastate her.
> 
> *But she caused it...*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She absolutely caused it and has never taken responsibility for her actions. People think she's a saint while RR suffers. This thread really breaks the heart. I would need to bring this to a head but that is RR's choice. I don't sense peace in RR but quiet agony.


----------



## G.J.

river rat said:


> But for me at least, there is no emotional intimacy. If she walked out tomorrow, I'd be ok. As a cautionary tale, this is the cost of infidelity.



That statement is so sad.......


----------



## MattMatt

Truthseeker1 said:


> She absolutely caused it and has never taken responsibility for her actions. People think she's a saint while RR suffers. This thread really breaks the heart. I would need to bring this to a head but that is RR's choice. I don't sense peace in RR but quiet agony.


I am where River Rat is, but further down the line. Still together but it's never quite as good, never quite the same.


----------



## Truthseeker1

MattMatt said:


> I am where River Rat is, but further down the line. Still together but it's never quite as good, never quite the same.


Do you ever think of leaving? I mean you get just one life to live.


----------



## TAMAT

RiverRat,

Now, as we enter retirement, we are good companions with benefits. But for me at least, there is no emotional intimacy. If she walked out tomorrow, I'd be ok. As a cautionary tale, this is the cost of infidelity. 

*Thank You for posting, that describes to a great degree how I felt and continue to feel about my W after she was with an OM before we were married 20+ years ago.*

The cost would be nuclear for her. Our kids and the people of this community believe that she is a saint. The loss of that would be intolerable to her.

*This also describes my W people think she is saintly, in some ways she is.

I would encourage you to get the truth from your W not just for yourself, but for your W. Your W obviously, from what you wrote, did and continues to feel guilt for her affair. It will continue to trickle out for years and years, this is not something people get over without a confession. My W every so often will say something like "I'm guilty" during prayer and turn her head in shame 

Her affair renders the years from the affair until now degraded and the longer it goes on the more degraded years you will have. 

Also if you do not know who the OM is, possibly OW, how can you know they are not lurking nearby, OM spouse or SO should be informed.

Ultimately you may want to get a polygraph for your W.

Tamat*


----------



## Dyokemm

river rat,

Can I ask you why you consider your rugsweep to be successful?

It sounds like you and your WW have a very disconnected M....you tolerate each other and get along fine....but you do not sound like you would feel anything but relief if she was gone.

And your WW, from your sharing, seems like a person who feels a lot of guilt and basically functions every day in some form of denial to push sadness away.

To be in such a M sound like anything but a success to me.


----------



## ThePheonix

Gives new meaning to the phrase, "love hurts". I got out of my first and abusive, sexless, marriage nearly a quarter of a century ago. No way I could ever view it as successful and can only think that if I'd stayed in it, "to make it work" it would rank as the greatest personal tragedy of my life.


----------



## Dyokemm

The Phoenix,

Great point....it is a real tragedy when people knowingly accept less than the best life possible.

If OP and his WW were successfully reconciled and totally happy and in love with each other, with her A only a memory, painful yes, but without ANY impact on their current or future lives...THEN I would say their R was worth it due to the happy and good life they share together.

This R does seem more like a life tragedy.....it could be so much better.


----------



## river rat

First, I'd like to thank all of you for your input. You guys have been here when I needed you, and I'm grateful. I don't want to leave you with the impression that I'm a miserable person. I'm not. In many ways my life is enviable. It's just that sometimes I trigger, and then I mourn what was lost. This time it was a nightmare totally unrelated to my W's affair. I'd like to share a bit more detail, which may answer some of your questions. My wife was raised by a very cruel mother who believed in toxic shame as the best way to control her children. They all have some pretty serious issues. For my W, it was a low self esteem, which drove her to try to succeed at everything she did. Consequently she was a great mom, good at her job, and active in the church and community. It also caused her to have a great need for external validation, which made her vulnerable to an affair. Subsequently, her deep shame has not allowed her to confront the affair; she could not even admit it when caught red-handed. I have tried a number of times to get her to go to MC with me, thinking that we could broach this topic in a safe neutral environment. She has consistently refused. Thus, she has had to bear the burden of her guilt alone. Subsequently, we have discussed the issue of infidelity on many occasions, and she knows exactly how I feel about this. She is also aware that upon discovering the affair, I came very close to suicide. It took me a good therapist and several years to get a handle on my own issues. Faced with what I considered an impossible situation, I found that the best solution for me was to attain some emotional distance, which is what I have done.


----------



## Dyokemm

River Rat,

I completely understand the reason you emotionally distanced yourself...it was a necessity for self-preservation at the time.

But I think you should gently revisit the subject with your WW....I think she suffers silently and alone with the guilt as well.

Allowing her to confess to you can help bridge that distance and heal you both....I think both of you would be happier in what remains of your lives together and finally be able to reconnect.


----------



## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> First, I'd like to thank all of you for your input. You guys have been here when I needed you, and I'm grateful. I don't want to leave you with the impression that I'm a miserable person. I'm not. In many ways my life is enviable. It's just that sometimes I trigger, and then I mourn what was lost. This time it was a nightmare totally unrelated to my W's affair. I'd like to share a bit more detail, which may answer some of your questions. My wife was raised by a very cruel mother who believed in toxic shame as the best way to control her children. They all have some pretty serious issues. For my W, it was a low self esteem, which drove her to try to succeed at everything she did. Consequently she was a great mom, good at her job, and active in the church and community. It also caused her to have a great need for external validation, which made her vulnerable to an affair. Subsequently, her deep shame has not allowed her to confront the affair; she could not even admit it when caught red-handed. I have tried a number of times to get her to go to MC with me, thinking that we could broach this topic in a safe neutral environment. She has consistently refused. Thus, she has had to bear the burden of her guilt alone. Subsequently, we have discussed the issue of infidelity on many occasions, and she knows exactly how I feel about this. She is also aware that upon discovering the affair, I came very close to suicide. It took me a good therapist and several years to get a handle on my own issues. Faced with what I considered an impossible situation, I found that the best solution for me was to attain some emotional distance, which is what I have done.


RR - it still seems like this is an open wound..which neither of you have healed from. She knows you were close to suicide but still would not come clean? She refused to put herself on the line to help you heal? We are talking suicide!!

She doesn't want to confront it because she got away with having an affair without any real consequences. 

If you choose to keep the affair rugswept that is your decision and i wish you luck - it would kill me not knowing the truth. 

Don't you want to be with a woman that you can be emotionally close to?


----------



## Truthseeker1

@river rat I have one suggestion for you. Your wife refuses to go to MC - refuses to do any work to help you heal yet you choose to stay with her. If this is your choice then why not send her an email with a link to this thread and have her read it. Maybe that will get through to her.


----------



## GusPolinski

river rat said:


> First, I'd like to thank all of you for your input. You guys have been here when I needed you, and I'm grateful. I don't want to leave you with the impression that I'm a miserable person. I'm not. In many ways my life is enviable. It's just that sometimes I trigger, and then I mourn what was lost. This time it was a nightmare totally unrelated to my W's affair. I'd like to share a bit more detail, which may answer some of your questions. My wife was raised by a very cruel mother who believed in toxic shame as the best way to control her children. They all have some pretty serious issues. For my W, it was a low self esteem, which drove her to try to succeed at everything she did. Consequently she was a great mom, good at her job, and active in the church and community. It also caused her to have a great need for external validation, which made her vulnerable to an affair. Subsequently, her deep shame has not allowed her to confront the affair; she could not even admit it when caught red-handed. I have tried a number of times to get her to go to MC with me, thinking that we could broach this topic in a safe neutral environment. She has consistently refused. Thus, she has had to bear the burden of her guilt alone. Subsequently, we have discussed the issue of infidelity on many occasions, and she knows exactly how I feel about this. She is also aware that upon discovering the affair, I came very close to suicide. It took me a good therapist and several years to get a handle on my own issues. Faced with what I considered an impossible situation, *I found that the best solution for me was to attain some emotional distance, which is what I have done.*



Get more.


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## Graywolf2

river rat said:


> A week ago, we were having a conversation, and she remarked, " I want to thank you for not leaving me."


Is this the only time she ever addressed her affair?


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## sparrow555

river rat said:


> Well, it's been awhile since I updated this thread. My FWW and I are still together. There has been no suspicion of inappropriate behavior. We are still sexually intimate. Overall, I am content with life. However, my ability to trust has never returned. I think that if we had addressed the issue when it occurred, I might have been able to heal, or I might be gone completely from this relationship. Now, as we enter retirement, we are good companions with benefits. But for me at least, there is no emotional intimacy. If she walked out tomorrow, I'd be ok. As a cautionary tale, this is the cost of infidelity.




Why did she never confess ? Why never get the confession ? Why don't you ask her now ?


Interesting post here



river rat said:


> She found a journal that I was using to keep myself focused on the objective. Her reaction was one of denial and panic. We never talked much about that, even years later, when I sought out a therapist. I offered many times to take her along to one of my sessions, but she always declined.


----------



## sparrow555

river rat said:


> First, I'd like to thank all of you for your input. You guys have been here when I needed you, and I'm grateful. I don't want to leave you with the impression that I'm a miserable person. I'm not. In many ways my life is enviable. It's just that sometimes I trigger, and then I mourn what was lost. This time it was a nightmare totally unrelated to my W's affair. I'd like to share a bit more detail, which may answer some of your questions. My wife was raised by a very cruel mother who believed in toxic shame as the best way to control her children. They all have some pretty serious issues. For my W, it was a low self esteem, which drove her to try to succeed at everything she did. Consequently she was a great mom, good at her job, and active in the church and community. It also caused her to have a great need for external validation, which made her vulnerable to an affair. Subsequently, her deep shame has not allowed her to confront the affair; she could not even admit it when caught red-handed. I have tried a number of times to get her to go to MC with me, thinking that we could broach this topic in a safe neutral environment. She has consistently refused. Thus, she has had to bear the burden of her guilt alone. Subsequently, we have discussed the issue of infidelity on many occasions, and she knows exactly how I feel about this. She is also aware that upon discovering the affair, I came very close to suicide. It took me a good therapist and several years to get a handle on my own issues. Faced with what I considered an impossible situation, I found that the best solution for me was to attain some emotional distance, which is what I have done.




I think you are indulging in mental gymnastics and making excuses to find peace with your reality and I think you realize it. Isn't it ?


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## alte Dame

With all due respect, she is not carrying the burden of guilt alone. Perhaps in silence, but certainly not alone. You felt suicidal because of this. Surely, this is the strongest evidence of what you've had at stake here.

I understand your choices. You could soldier on, given her issues, or you could force her to seek treatment. Her own dysfunction from her FOO has snowballed through your life, resulting in the standoff of silence that you live with.

I understand why you've chosen what you have, but I find it sad.


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## river rat

Some interesting points made. I have tried many times over the years to offer her the opportunity to discuss this. Always met with denial and gaslighting : "How could you believe I'd ever do that?" Only the one time that she seemed vulnerable, and I was already at a place in my head that I didn't choose to take her up on it. The wound analogy is valid. But the wound bleeds only occasionally. I have led a very active life. I have other old injuries that limit what I can do. I'll never again run a ten K. I'll never again bench press 225. But I still ride my bike 20 mi. and I still lift weights 3 times weekly. My point is, that life is not perfect and accommodations must be made. The choice to be happy with those accommodations is up to the individual. And I am happy most of the time. To get her to address this issue would require my serving divorce papers, and even then there is the chance that it would be turned around on me and my children would hate me. They would never believe that their mother would do such a thing. I have a daughter with mental health problems; her parents divorcing would destroy her. So, I have made my accommodations. I understand that many of you cannot comprehend this, but you have my gratitude for listening. That's what I really needed.


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## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> Some interesting points made. I have tried many times over the years to offer her the opportunity to discuss this. Always met with denial and gaslighting : "How could you believe I'd ever do that?" Only the one time that she seemed vulnerable, and I was already at a place in my head that I didn't choose to take her up on it. The wound analogy is valid. But the wound bleeds only occasionally. I have led a very active life. I have other old injuries that limit what I can do. I'll never again run a ten K. I'll never again bench press 225. But I still ride my bike 20 mi. and I still lift weights 3 times weekly. My point is, that life is not perfect and accommodations must be made. The choice to be happy with those accommodations is up to the individual. And I am happy most of the time. To get her to address this issue would require my serving divorce papers, and even *then there is the chance that it would be turned around on me and my children would hate me. They would never believe that their mother would do such a thing. * I have a daughter with mental health problems; her parents divorcing would destroy her. So, I have made my accommodations. I understand that many of you cannot comprehend this, but you have my gratitude for listening. That's what I really needed.


The highlighted speaks to your wife's character. If she would still lie even though you were suicidal makes me wonder about her.She seems more concerned with her well being than yours - not an ideal life partner. 

I understand concern for your daughter but you do need to get some resolution - why not show her this thread?


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## farsidejunky

RR, if you have reached a "peace" with things, why are you here?

As I see it, someone at peace shouldn't have much of a need for here.


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## Truthseeker1

farsidejunky said:


> RR, if you have reached a "peace" with things, why are you here?
> 
> As I see it, someone at peace shouldn't have much of a need for here.


I don't think there is peace at all but a life of quiet agony. From RR's description of his wife - her only concern is herself and not RR or his recovery. Where is her remorse or her concern for her husband? I really don't see any. The fact that she would be indifferent to a suicidal husband or turn her kids against him to hide her infidelity really makes me wonder about her character. 


There are WWs on this message board who endure slings and arrows after they got caught but all they cared about was that their husband would recover. They are few in number but they exist. RR's wife is not one of those women.

RR's posts just make me sad - not mad or judgmental but sad. There is a melancholy that permeates everything RR writes. 

RR i do wish you the best but I don't think that is what you have right now - I hope someday you do find true peace.


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## MattMatt

Truthseeker1 said:


> Do you ever think of leaving? I mean you get just one life to live.


Well, no, oddly enough I didn't.


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## NoChoice

OP,
Sometimes we deny people the opportunity to grow when we shelter them out of "love". We feel that they could not handle the situation and therefore allow them to sidestep what could be an opportunity for significant growth. Determination and resolve are developed when we face our demons and stand accountable. Your wife's demons still haunt her and you as well. You may see your actions as chivalrous, gallantly sparing her the angst of owning her actions but in reality you could be depriving her, and you, of some very necessary growth,

At the very least you are not allowing her to feel the pain of what she has done. I feel that you have waited all this time for her to take the first step thereby proving how deeply she cares for you. In not doing so, be it intentional or not, she has proven the opposite to you and you have steeled your emotions as a consequence, understandably. You do not wish to force the issue because you want to see her put forth the effort and prove her "love" for you by gladly accepting the retribution for her misdeeds. By not stepping up, she is doing you, herself and your marriage a great disservice, death by slow poisoning.

I do not suggest that you forcefully imply your desires as this is not your way. I suggest she should. Sadly, her love of self is stronger than her love for you and this is your nemesis, the source of your sadness and emotional detachment.

You are a man of strong resolve and deep empathy and I admire that. Your wife however, is more concerned about her "saintly" status than about you. That is deeply saddening and regrettable. If she only knew the depths of "love" that could be hers if she could but realize the unimportance of self. If she could but realize that through her giving to you, she would lift this dark veil from the marriage thereby liberating your emotions and allowing the light of truth and honesty to nourish this now barren soil. What would grow could be amazing.

Alas, it may not be meant to be. As long as she cares more for self than anything else, you are relegated to live in this shell of a marriage, never experiencing the possibilities. An unpleasant fate to be sure. Good fortune and strength to you sir.


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## ThePheonix

Are you certain beyond a reasonable doubt she cheated on you? I understand the mysterious passion mark but do you have anything else. You said ya'll hadn't fooled around in a week. Bear in mind "hickeys" can last two weeks on longer depending on a persons health, stress level, and other factors. Were there other unexplained behavior during this time? Her later saying she glad you didn't leave her is not conclusive and may be grossly inconclusive. Without other supporting evidence, her denying is not necessarily gaslighting and lying.


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## Vulcan2013

river rat said:


> Some interesting points made. I have tried many times over the years to offer her the opportunity to discuss this. Always met with denial and gaslighting : "How could you believe I'd ever do that?" Only the one time that she seemed vulnerable, and I was already at a place in my head that I didn't choose to take her up on it. The wound analogy is valid. But the wound bleeds only occasionally. I have led a very active life. I have other old injuries that limit what I can do. I'll never again run a ten K. I'll never again bench press 225. But I still ride my bike 20 mi. and I still lift weights 3 times weekly. My point is, that life is not perfect and accommodations must be made. The choice to be happy with those accommodations is up to the individual. And I am happy most of the time. *To get her to address this issue would require my serving divorce papers, and even then there is the chance that it would be turned around on me and my children would hate me. They would never believe that their mother would do such a thing. * I have a daughter with mental health problems; her parents divorcing would destroy her. So, I have made my accommodations. I understand that many of you cannot comprehend this, but you have my gratitude for listening. That's what I really needed.


That bold part is emotional terrorism. Ignore the elephant in the room; the pain she's caused, or there's hell to pay. Swallow your pain or else. And you live with a "roommate with benefits."


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## ConanHub

Your life. Have fun not knowing anything.

You're a good man to cheat on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dental

With interest I've been reading this thread. I find that OP in all his posts says one thing (happy with wifey. nice life, great expectations etc). But it all sounds a bit rational to me. Like he is convincing himself of his choices. Coming up with excuses for his wife and motivations for himself to keep the status quo. Mental gymnastics another poster said. But by doing this, OP is steering himself away from his deep desire: to know the truth, the only truth and nothing but the truth. The reason OP is posting here is trying to fill this void of not knowing. I don't think the posters here can fill this void, OP has to get that from his wife.


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## Locke.Stratos

*River Rat*, your ability to make excuses and rationalize is remarkable. You're practically on par, perhaps even surpassing those in affairs justifying their behaviour, a true master of the craft.

Oh, and making excuses (for someone) is characteristic of an unhealthy/bad relationship:

-He cried and said he'll never do it again
-She's going through a stressful time at work
-She only yells when she drinks
-Her mother was withholding
-I deserved it because I upset him/her
-His father was abusive
-Her mother was an alcoholic
-It's my fault, I don't make enough money to buy her what she wants
-I shouldn't have provoked him
-She has low self-esteem
-We have children together
-He is just not in a good place right now
-He loves me, he just has a different way of showing it
-Her mother believed in toxic shame
-Life is not perfect and accommodations must be made
-I am happy most of the time

Someone who is truly remorseful and sorry for the pain and hurt their behaviour has caused will do whatever it takes, AT THE VERY LEAST admit to their behaviour. They will put your well-being above theirs, be willing to endure the shame, anger, judgement or whatever and put in effort to prove their love for you and demonstrate how sorry they are.

No matter what you tell yourself of, no matter how much you try to convince yourself that it's something or everything else, you have rugswept her affair, and you do not have the conviction to confront the issue:|.



river rat said:


> But for me at least, there is no emotional intimacy. If she walked out tomorrow, I'd be ok


This is absolutely no way that anyone should feel about their husband or wife. You may not realize it but your posts are a cry for help. 

Your wife hurt you, she broke your heart. You need her to acknowledge that and apologize. That isn't wrong, it's basic human nature.


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## Truthseeker1

Vulcan2013 said:


> That bold part is emotional terrorism. Ignore the elephant in the room; the pain she's caused, or there's hell to pay. Swallow your pain or else. And you live with a "roommate with benefits."


:iagree::iagree::iagree: Agreed - that is not the behavior of a "saintly" woman at all. Her behavior shows me RR's wife is concerned about one person - herself.


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## Dyokemm

"But it all sounds a bit rational to me."

Yes...it is nothing but logical analysis.

And that's because RR, as he admits, is emotionally detached from his WW.

However, logically he's reconciled himself to accepting this and decided to just cruise out the rest of his life this way.

A detached BH....a guilt and denial ridden WW....little connection between the two due to the IMMENSE unspoken and never to be addressed 'elephant' in their M.

Hey....it's his life and choice though.

Few here would ever accept this....I know I couldn't....but then we don't have to live his life.

I wish him the best with the path he has chosen....and I at least appreciate his honesty in declaring openly that he would NEVER recommend any BS make the same choices.

Best wishes RR!


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## river rat

I thank you all for your thoughts and insights. A lot to think about going forward. I am signing off for now. Perhaps I can return at some point with a progress report. Until then, I wish you well.


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## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> I thank you all for your thoughts and insights. A lot to think about going forward. I am signing off for now. Perhaps I can return at some point with a progress report. Until then, I wish you well.


Good luck @river rat I hope you use this time to digest our words and put them in to action. *Without action there will be no healing.* I wish you the best.:thumbup:


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## ThePheonix

ThePheonix said:


> Are you certain beyond a reasonable doubt she cheated on you?


RR, I was hoping you'd respond to my above post. If not on the forum, at least with a PM. But its your prerogative Dawg. Think about it anyway.


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## river rat

Pheonix, not ignoring you. I've been away for a bit. In answer to your question, yes, there was a lot of evidence. Leading up to the discovery of the passion mark, there was a growing distance between us, which was rather sudden, considering that we'd just celebrated our 25th anniversary and seemed to be more in love than ever. Then there was a shift in attitude of total disrespect, even contempt, for me; I couldn't do anything right. Our sex life went from 2-3 times a week to once or twice a month. She'd gone back to college for another degree and career change. She began to talk about a friend she'd met in some of her classes, about our age, who'd also gone back to pursue a second career; she went on about what a cool guy he was. Then the late night study groups, from which she would come home and immediately shower. Then the obsession with a movie called "The Bridges of ******* County" in which a bored housewife asserts her independence by having an affair. All of this made me uneasy, but I trusted her. Then the encounter with the passion mark on her neck. We hadn't been intimate in several weeks. Suddenly the previous 6 months made a lot of sense. Later I discovered a FB message from her to him that conveyed a lot of emotion; no smoking gun, but that's when I strongly suspected that he was the AP. Lastly, her thanking me for not leaving her. I could probably have gotten the details at that time, but by then, I'd detached to the degree that I no longer wanted to deal with it. I decided to let her live with the guilt of her own decision. Probably not the healthiest choice, but it's what I needed at the time. I felt somewhat justified and got a degree of satisfaction knowing that she'd suffered for what she put me through. Do I wish that I had a more open and honest relationship with her? Sure I do, but I'd also like Warren Buffet's money. And I'm not going to get either of those. Following the discussions on this thread, I actually gave some thought to bringing all of it out into the open. But another matter with one of our kids arose, and I saw how much guilt and anger she carries in her core, and how much she has to use denial in order to function. I think that if I could get her to see a good therapist, she might be able to deal with a lot of these issues. She has repeatedly refused. I'm not the one qualified to do this for her.


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## GusPolinski

I'd recommend some intense divorce therapy.


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## Truthseeker1

GusPolinski said:


> I'd recommend some intense divorce therapy.


I'd recommend bringing this to a head once and for all. Until then this will fester and infect the marriage but I've already said that. @river rat I don't encourage you to bring it to a head to punish you but to heal yourself. You seem like a sad husband in a lot of pain and it pains me to see that.


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## ThePheonix

RR, based on what you previously posted, left room for reasonable doubt to me that she cheated. However, the preponderance of the evidence you presented supports your contentions. 
Over the years you've had your reasons to suffer silently. I believe it would help you now to not so much confront her, but simply tell her you know the score, you know what she did why she did it, and although you know she's glad you didn't leave, her activities took a toll on you and depreciated your feeling for her. And your statement is strictly between you and her and her response is unnecessary and not needed;that if she draws the kids or anybody else into it, its on her. If the kids find out, theyre big enough and strong enough to separate the wheat formthe chaff. You're doing it for you and not for her. (other than letting her know you're no fool).
Considering your history and position, I'm a little curious why you list her as your best friend on your profile.


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## Graywolf2

river rat said:


> I felt somewhat justified and got a degree of satisfaction knowing that she'd suffered for what she put me through.
> 
> But another matter with one of our kids arose, and I saw how much guilt and anger she carries in her core, and how much she has to use denial in order to function.


If she’s angry and in denial how do you know guilt is making her suffer? Anger and denial are excellent ways to convince yourself that other people are responsible for your problems. 

I doubt there is much guilt. I’ve seen the movie you mentioned and it’s a total justification of how a good woman can have an affair and have very special fond memories of it afterwards. It enriched her life and she deserved some happiness. It even reinforces what a good woman she was because her husband gets cancer and she takes care of him until he dies.

If she suffered it was from fear that you would expose her or divorce her. 



river rat said:


> Later I discovered a FB message from her to him that conveyed a lot of emotion; no smoking gun, but that's when I strongly suspected that he was the AP.


What Pheonix said would be my plan A at the least. I’m not recommending this but it would be interesting to email or FB the OM and simply say that you discovered what he and your wife did years ago. Then just sit back and see what happens. 

It might shake the OM up a little. If she comes to you all upset telling you that you’re wrong you can review your evidence with her. Even if she never admits her affair you can both discuss your feelings.


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## Roselyn

Woman here and married 35 years; first marriage for both my husband and I. Your wife's "alleged affair" clearly bothers you or you would not be here. Your wife thanking you for not leaving her, indicated that she had an affair. You are in limbo. Neither you nor your wife are forthright. Your marriage will always be affected.

You need to be honest with each other and not dwell in the shadows. Your unspoken words will haunt you always.


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## Truthseeker1

Roselyn said:


> Woman here and married 35 years; first marriage for both my husband and I. Your wife's "alleged affair" clearly bothers you or you would not be here. Your wife thanking you for not leaving her, indicated that she had an affair. You are in limbo. Neither you nor your wife are forthright. Your marriage will always be affected.
> 
> You need to be honest with each other and not dwell in the shadows. Your unspoken words will haunt you always.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

@Roselyn hit it on the head..I'd tell her how you feel and maybe have a VAR running.


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## ThePheonix

Yep, this thing has been roasting way longer than it should have. Everybody, and especially you, will be a hell of a lot better off by putting it out on the table once and for all.


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## Dyokemm

RR,

I find it rather depressing that you put a resolution of your WW's A and trying to close the emotional detachment you (understandably) created between you two on the same plane of attainability as becoming as wealthy as Warren Buffet.

You are basically saying that repairing your M to create a happy and connected situation for you and your W in your remaining 'golden years' is an impossibility.....and your detachment from her is so severe that you are content and OK with this.

It's sad.


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## Chaparral

The shocking thing about this to me besides the affair of course, is the hicky/hickies. This was intended for you to see by the posom. Only an idiot or an @sshole would put a hickey on his married affair partner. If she new the hickey was there, him and her both was rubbing your face in it and laughing at you behind your back. He wasn't some crazy kid, he was her age and intended for you to see someone was banging your wife. Possibly to cause a divorce and take her for himself.

Did she stop seeing him after you confronted her?

Now the question is does she even care that you are disconnected from her. I honestly have my doubts about that.


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## ThePheonix

"_Only an idiot or an @sshole would put a hickey on his married affair partner."_

I'z wondering about that myself Chappy. The only other thing that would be a better advertisement would be send a letter and DVD to the husband by certified mail.


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## Graywolf2

river rat said:


> I decided to let her live with the guilt of her own decision.


You seem to think that your wife is full of guilt.



river rat said:


> She is also aware that upon discovering the affair, I came very close to suicide.


She knows that her affair caused you to almost kill yourself.



river rat said:


> She found a journal that I was using to keep myself focused on the objective. Her reaction was one of denial and panic. We never talked much about that, even years later, when I sought out a therapist. I offered many times to take her along to one of my sessions, but she always declined.


She was in “denial and panic” because she was concerned for her lifestyle and reputation more than she was for your very life. I don’t think she’s guilty at all.


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## ConanHub

Again. Enjoy pal. You have chosen a half life of semi misery.

It is almost comical. Under the circumstances, I never usually advise this, why don't you go find a slvt to bang for a while and start denying your wife sex and affection.

Have your AP give you a hicky and do your own gas lighting and all the same bvllshyt your unremorseful WW put you through.

Then look at her one evening and thank her for not leaving.

You must have an extremely low opinion of yourself.

Quasimodo could do better than your wife.

I might have missed it but do you hate yourself?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dyokemm

"She was in “denial and panic” because she was concerned for her lifestyle and reputation more than she was for your very life. I don’t think she’s guilty at all."

More than likely, she wants NO PART of realizing just how close she came to instigating her BH committing suicide with her sh*tty A.

She would rather put the A and its aftermath in a box never to be opened instead of gazing into THAT mirror of self-reflection and analysis.


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## Sports Fan

To forgive one is perfectly ok after you have held them to account and offered up serious consequences.


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## Truthseeker1

Dyokemm said:


> "She was in “denial and panic” because she was concerned for her lifestyle and reputation more than she was for your very life. I don’t think she’s guilty at all."
> 
> *More than likely, she wants NO PART of realizing just how close she came to instigating her BH committing suicide with her sh*tty A.*
> 
> She would rather put the A and its aftermath in a box never to be opened instead of gazing into THAT mirror of self-reflection and analysis.


This is the part that gives me real pause about RR's wife. He's suicidal and she won't lift a finger to help - do you think she has guilt if she's willig to let a suicidal husband go it alone when SHE HAD the ability to help. She sounds like a woman who got away with a sordid affair and goes through life content that everyone thinks she is a saint. :wtf:


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## cgiles

Does your wife knows you no longer desire to have emotional intimancy with her and you no longer trust her ?

You worry about your children, but if you don't blame your wife for the divorce, and simply state you don't love her anymore, and don't want to waste her and your time, they would understand.

If she blames you, you can explain why you don't trust her anymore, telling to your children all the redflags you have, and why you tried to kill yourself.

You don't speak about how your they dealed with your suicide attempts, how they reacted ?

I guess it shocked them, to see one of the pillar of their life, trying to kill himself.

Or you can keep those red flags for you, and opens your local communist party.


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## river rat

Well folks, it's been an eventful few weeks. I decided that you guys were right. Long past time to deal with the elephant in the living room. So I sat her down one evening, held her hand and told her that we had to deal with the issue that was creating a wall between us. She played dumb and had no idea what I was talking about. I went on to say that truth between us would allow us to overcome our problem, and allow us to grow closer. Still no reaction. Then I said,"I need you to tell me about the affair." Well, the response was nothing that I had envisioned. She jerked her hand from mine, stood up, started swearing at me, called me every vile name she could think of, called me psychotic and delusional. I sat breathing deeply, remaining relatively calm, and said, "We still need to have this conversation." She stormed from the room. I spent the next three nights in the guest room. I tried to maintain the 180, being respectful and cheerful. She did not speak one word to me during this time. The vehemence of her attack left me shaken, and at first, I began to doubt myself, but I pulled it together and reminded myself that I knew what I saw. On the fourth day I had to have some space so I told her I was spending a few days at our river cabin. The response was, "Fine." This is a bit long, so I'm going to break it up here.


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## river rat

The few nights turned into two weeks. No communication at all. I held out hope that she would consider what was at stake and call me to have the conversation. Didn't happen. After two weeks of silence, I consulted an attorney. I waited another week and had her served. The call came then. There was a lot of nothing really happened, he was just a friend, things just got out of hand, it didn't mean anything.... the usual cheaters' script. Then she changed tactics and enumerated all of my failings that led her to do this thing. I just let her run. When she was done there were several seconds of silence. Then I said, "Thank you for telling me the truth. But it's too late." I hung up and blocked her number. I spoke with my kids and told them that their mother and I had grown apart and that we were separating. I gave no explanation beyond that. My daughter asked if I had an affair. I told her that I would never do that to my family. It's been hard for me emotionally. I really miss the woman that I married, but I don't miss the one that I had that last conversation with. I have realized that I actually checked out of the marriage years ago. So now it's time to get on with the rest of my life.


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## Truthseeker1

All I can say is wow just wow.....I'd let the kids know their mom cheated before she villifies you to them....do not be a "gentleman" any longer..its time she was kncoked off her pedestal..she is going to hit rock bottm very soon...


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## alte Dame

Wow, indeed!

I'm so glad that you took some action. How are you feeling?


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## GusPolinski

Glad to see that you finally took action, @RR. And, while I truly do wish it had gone a bit better for you, at least now you'll be able to finally untether yourself from this uncaring woman.

Did you find out who the OM is? If so, have you considered exposing the affair to his wife (assuming, of course, that he's married)?


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## phillybeffandswiss

river rat said:


> My daughter asked if I had an affair. I told her that I would never do that to my family. .


See, I will never understand this "I will not tell my kids" line of thinking. Children pick up on things and it is awfully funny she immediately thought of you as the cheater. IMO, your kids are being turned against you. That would have been the perfect opportunity to say "no, mommy did that to daddy."


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## Satya

You should have told your daughter the truth. Her direct question smacks of your STBX telling a lie about you to allay her own guilt. Plus, YOU left, which makes you look like the bad person.

Get back there.


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## Satya

phillybeffandswiss said:


> See, I will never understand this "I will not tell my kids" line of thinking. Children pick up on things and it is awfully funny she immediately thought of you as the cheater. IMO, your kids are being turned against you. That would have been the perfect opportunity to say "no, mommy did that to daddy."


Yes, very worrying. Totally agree.


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## Dyokemm

riverrat,

I know that must have sucked....but I also get the feeling from your post like you almost get a sense of relief....as if a burden you have carried for ages was finally removed.

And your WW?....absolutely no remorse.

Her f*cking another man 'didn't mean anything'....despite the fact she knows it almost led to a suicide attempt on your part?

Wow.

But at least now you can finally move on begin to heal and find true joy in life.

I wish you nothing but the best.

And there is no need to inform your kids of the specifics of why the D is happening.....UNLESS you hear that she is badmouthing and degrading you to paint herself as the victim and you as the bad guy.

If that happens, just make a simple statement to your kids that mom had an A years ago, it led to distance between you because it was never truly dealt with or addressed, and when you sought to get closure so you and your WW could heal and enjoy the rest of your years together, she expressed and demonstrated that she was unwilling to do what was necessary....so it is best you D so each of you can go find happiness in what is left of your lives.

Clear, honest, and direct without running her down or badmouthing her.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Dyokemm said:


> riverrat,
> 
> I know that must have sucked....but I also get the feeling from your post like you almost get a sense of relief....as if a burden you have carried for ages was finally removed.
> 
> And your WW?....absolutely no remorse.
> 
> Her f*cking another man 'didn't mean anything'....despite the fact she knows it almost led to a suicide attempt on your part?
> 
> Wow.
> 
> But at least now you can finally move on begin to heal and find true joy in life.
> 
> I wish you nothing but the best.
> 
> And there is no need to inform your kids of the specifics of what the D is happening.....UNLESS you hear that she is badmouthing and degrading you to paint herself as the victim and you as the bad guy.
> 
> If that happens, just make a simple statement to your kids that mom had an A years ago, it led to distance between you because it was never truly dealt with or addressed, and when you sought to get closure so you and your WW could heal and enjoy the rest of your years together, she expressed and demonstrated that she was unwilling to do what was necessary....so it is best you D so each of you can go find happiness in what is left of your lives.
> 
> Clear, honest, and direct with running her down or badmouthing her.


RR do not let this woman get away with more than she already has. She has never felt the conseuqences of her actions nows it time she does. Exposure would sure give her the kick in the a** she deserves...


----------



## river rat

Hey guys. Thanks for the replies. To answer some of your questions, I don't plan to tell my kids the details unless I find out that she has told falsehoods about me. My daughter, whom I was most concerned about, took the news well. She seemed to know that something was up. Maybe we've not been as discrete as we thought we were. I don't think that my WW will trash me because of the fear that I will tell the truth. Unfortunately for her, she was raised by a narcissist, who used toxic shame as her preferred child rearing technique. I believe that is the reason that she could never admit to me what she had done, even when confronted and offered amnesty. I believe that she will take that secret to her grave. At this point, I still love the woman that she was, and I have compassion for the person she has become. As for me, I'm doing well. After all, I've had years to prepare myself emotionally for this event. The reason for my post today is that it was the last thing on my to do list before my dog and I take off on a cross country road trip. Kayak and bike are on the car. Camping and fishing gear in the trunk. My guitar will be the last thing that I load. If you attend open mike night in some bar in Arizona, I might be the old guy on the stage. I wish the best for you all.


----------



## MattMatt

Truthseeker1 said:


> This is the part that gives me real pause about RR's wife. He's suicidal and she won't lift a finger to help - do you think she has guilt if she's willig to let a suicidal husband go it alone when SHE HAD the ability to help. She sounds like a woman who got away with a sordid affair and goes through life content that everyone thinks she is a saint. :wtf:


Unless he did the "man up" cr*p? Just sucked it up and held it in.

And if she was so wrapped up in her own self, she might not have noticed her husband wearing a top hat to bed.


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## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> Hey guys. Thanks for the replies. To answer some of your questions, I don't plan to tell my kids the details unless I find out that she has told falsehoods about me. My daughter, whom I was most concerned about, took the news well. She seemed to know that something was up. Maybe we've not been as discrete as we thought we were. I don't think that my WW will trash me because of the fear that I will tell the truth. Unfortunately for her, she was raised by a narcissist, who used toxic shame as her preferred child rearing technique. I believe that is the reason that she could never admit to me what she had done, even when confronted and offered amnesty. I believe that she will take that secret to her grave. At this point, I still love the woman that she was, and I have compassion for the person she has become. As for me, I'm doing well. After all, I've had years to prepare myself emotionally for this event. The reason for my post today is that it was the last thing on my to do list before my dog and I take off on a cross country road trip. Kayak and bike are on the car. Camping and fishing gear in the trunk. My guitar will be the last thing that I load. If you attend open mike night in some bar in Arizona, I might be the old guy on the stage. I wish the best for you all.


Safe travels my friend...hope you find the peace that has eluded you all these years...


----------



## Dyokemm

RiverRat,

Your WW is a perfect example of the 'double-edged' sword that pride can be....and not just for her, but for all of us.

Many people, maybe even a majority of us, would choose a point of pride and honor as that 'hill to die on' rather that surrender our position or stance.

Sometimes, this is an admirable and honorable thing....a sign of true dignity.

Think Patrick Henry....'Give me liberty, or give me death!'

But at other times, when the person doing it is in the wrong....a refusal to apologize and a defiant attitude is a sign of pride at its worst.

This form of pride is not about dignity or honor.....rather it is a a manifestation of arrogance and an aura of superiority.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Dyokemm said:


> RiverRat,
> 
> Your WW is a perfect example of the 'double-edged' sword that pride can be....and not just for her, but for all of us.
> 
> Many people, maybe even a majority of us, would choose a point of pride and honor as that 'hill to die on' rather that surrender our position or stance.
> 
> Sometimes, this is an admirable and honorable thing....a sign of true dignity.
> 
> Think Patrick Henry....'Give me liberty, or give me death!'
> 
> But at other times, when the person doing it is in the wrong....a refusal to apologize and a defiant attitude is a sign of pride at its worst.
> 
> This form of pride is not about dignity or honor.....rather it is a a manifestation of arrogance an aura of superiority.


I think what is also troubling about his wife - more than misplaced pride is the lack of caring for her husbands mental well being. How can you watch the person you VOWED to cherish suffer and keep your mouth shut. There is something really wrong with this woman. I still think RR shuld tell the kids - he has indulged this woman enough.


----------



## sparrow555

So, did she confess or not ? 


If I understand correctly, she told you that it was something that got out of hand but it was not an affair.


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## TAMAT

Riverrat,

One of the ugliest aspect of infidelity is how it makes everyone who knows about it dishonest too and keep their mouth shut about the crime they are witnessing. Your children deserve to know the truth about what happened, or you will be implicitly lying to them. 

There is also a very reasonable chance that your children witnessed something your WW did and have kept silent for all this time, out of terror that they might break up their family. Growing up a number of my friends spoke of their parents infidelity and what they witnessed.

While you might object to my calling infidelity a crime, I would have to wonder how many of our ex-soldiers commit suicide after coming home to a cheating spouse.

Tamat


----------



## Truthseeker1

*I guess the answer to the OP's question "successful rugsweep?" is no.* Rugsweeping NEVER works - she tossed off amnesty and a chance to rebuild her marriage and keep her family in tact all for the sake of covering up her affair. I hope RR's wife thinks those moments of pleasure were worth it. What a compete waste. Also when a spouse wants to rugsweep or lie - just DUMP them immediately - they are not worth wasting your life on.


----------



## carmen ohio

This thread should be required reading for BSs, especially those who shows signs of wanting to rugsweep their WSs' affairs.

File under 'better late than never.'


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## river rat

Just a quick follow-up. Dog & I are still on the road. Having a blast. My attorney and accountant are working out the financial settlement. I haven't spoken to WW since our last conversation. I keep in touch with my kids. I have made the condition that we don't talk about her. They seem to have arrived at the correct conclusion as to the cause of my leaving; they realize that her infidelity would be the only thing that would cause me to do this. I haven't confirmed or denied to them. I think it's her responsibility to own this eventually. I'm not planning to return to my home state until after the divorce is final at the end of Feb. Looking toward the Gulf coast to spend the winter. Once the dust has settled, who knows, I may never go back. I'm just glad that I finally made the decision, and I intend to enjoy the rest of my life. I'm grateful to all of you who have made this journey with me.


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## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> Just a quick follow-up. Dog & I are still on the road. Having a blast. My attorney and accountant are working out the financial settlement. I haven't spoken to WW since our last conversation. I keep in touch with my kids. I have made the condition that we don't talk about her. They seem to have arrived at the correct conclusion as to the cause of my leaving; they realize that her infidelity would be the only thing that would cause me to do this. I haven't confirmed or denied to them. I think it's her responsibility to own this eventually. I'm not planning to return to my home state until after the divorce is final at the end of Feb. Looking toward the Gulf coast to spend the winter. Once the dust has settled, who knows, I may never go back. I'm just glad that I finally made the decision, and I intend to enjoy the rest of my life. I'm grateful to all of you who have made this journey with me.


 @river rat Safe travels. I hope this journey is the sweetest part of your life my friend. I'm happy for you - your thread makes me smile now.


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## Locke.Stratos

This was waaaaayyyyyy overdue, congratulations, I am happy for you.. all the best:laugh:!!


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## alte Dame

Enjoy your new life  !

You've earned some peace and happiness.


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## Truthseeker1

I do wonder what @river rat 's wife is thinking and doing these days...she has to be floored that the affair she thought she got away with finally came back to bite her in the a**.


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## Kallan Pavithran

Safe journey RR

This thread once again prove that if you rug sweep it will bite your back even yrs later.


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## Truthseeker1

Kallan Pavithran said:


> Safe journey RR
> 
> This thread once again prove that if you rug sweep it will bite your back even yrs later.


It allows the issue to fester growing stronger as the years go by...that serves no one...as RR's wife is now finding out the hard way..at the point in her life when she thought all was settled and clam - BANG - it blew up in her face...


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## totalfive21

carmen ohio said:


> This thread should be required reading for BSs, especially those who shows signs of wanting to rugsweep their WSs' affairs.
> 
> File under 'better late than never.'


This thread should also be required reading for any WSs out there who think that chapter is closed. River Rat, you are an inspiration! Better late than never! I agree with @Truthseeker about time NOT healing things, but allowing the problem/resentment to fester when rugswept.


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## manfromlamancha

Yes I too am wondering what is WW is thinking now ? She wanted to come clean at one point but RiverRat didn't want her to, at the time. Then she probably changed her mind and thought she had just dodged a bullet but when he finally did want her to come clean, she flipped out - and that was her next big mistake - she should have come clean and maybe RR would have given her another chance.

Shame - still RR seems to be enjoying himself now so good news!


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## Truthseeker1

manfromlamancha said:


> Yes I too am wondering what is WW is thinking now ? She wanted to come clean at one point but RiverRat didn't want her to, at the time. Then she probably changed her mind and thought she had just dodged a bullet but when he finally did want her to come clean, she flipped out - and that was her next big mistake - she should have come clean and maybe RR would have given her another chance.
> 
> Shame - still RR seems to be enjoying himself now so good news!


The search for peace has been elusive for RR...I hope he finds it at this stage of his life.


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## TAMAT

RiverRat,

You wrote this a few weeks back when you asked your WW to talk about the affair, *Then I said,"I need you to tell me about the affair." Well, the response was nothing that I had envisioned. She jerked her hand from mine, stood up, started swearing at me, called me every vile name she could think of, called me psychotic and delusional. I sat breathing deeply, remaining relatively calm, and said, "We still need to have this conversation." She stormed from the room.*

That's one of the funny things about rugswept affairs, is that all the emotions which went along with the affair, the fog, the hatred and contempt for the spouse, the denial, the admiration for OM, are sitting there intact like another identity in the cheater. 

When my W answered questions about OM-1 there was the same instant transformation, almost like a person with multiple personalities.

I sincerely doubt anyone forgets an affair, unless they had 100s or have gone senile.

I hope you are able to make the most of the rest of your life. 

What would you do if you got a confessional letter from your WW?

Tamat


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## stephscarlett

this is a really good thread. Point is, your wife had MANY opportunities to do right and she failed nearly every time, especially the last time, when she COULD have done the right thing but chose not to. You are making the right (although hard) choice to let go. She has not changed. The defensiveness and lying are too much to get beyond.


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## Dyokemm

"That's one of the funny things about rugswept affairs, is that all the emotions which went along with the affair, the fog, the hatred and contempt for the spouse, the denial, the admiration for OM, are sitting there intact like another identity in the cheater."

I agree.

I think if the couple have never confronted the betrayal and the WS has never done serious soul-searching and reflection about what made them feel justified to do it.....all of those resentments, the blameshifting, and the marital rewriting that went into the WS's "why" are never looked at....and they remain sitting there underneath the facade of a stable, or even happy seeming, M until in the instant they ARE brought up by a BS who just can't deal with the lying and rugsweeping anymore.

And at that point they come flooding out as if the A was yesterday, even if the A was decades ago like RiverRat's WW's.

Just like the pain of a BS who finds out years later seems like the A just happened to them, I think a WS in a situation like this has those resentments and excuses just as fresh....because they never dealt with or examined them in the first place.

RR's WW has probably been sitting there for 2 decades telling herself that she was entirely justified in her A at the time....now he asked her to deal with the A finally, and she freaked out and went instantly back to the same frame of mind that allowed her to have an A in the first place.


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## Truthseeker1

Dyokemm said:


> "That's one of the funny things about rugswept affairs, is that all the emotions which went along with the affair, the fog, the hatred and contempt for the spouse, the denial, the admiration for OM, are sitting there intact like another identity in the cheater."
> 
> I agree.
> 
> I think if the couple have never confronted the betrayal and the WS has never done serious soul-searching and reflection about what made them feel justified to do it.....the all of those resentments, the blameshifting, and the marital rewriting that went into the WS's "why" are never looked at....and they remain sitting there underneath the facade of a stable, or even happy seeming, M until in the instant they ARE brought up by a BS who just can't deal with the lying and rugsweeping anymore.
> 
> And at that point they come flooding out as if the A was yesterday, even if the A was decades ago like RiverRat's WW's.
> 
> Just like the pain of a BS who finds out years later seems like the A just happened to them, I think a WS in a situation like this has those resentments and excuses just as fresh....because they never dealt with or examined them in the first place.
> 
> RR's WW has probably been sitting there for 2 decades telling herself that she was entirely justified in her A at the time....now he asked her to deal with the A finally, and she freaked out and went instantly back to the same frame of mind that allowed her to have an A in the first place.


Now she will have plenty of time alone for soul searching - I'm betting she is blaming him right now for bringing it all up again. Now that her kids ar eon to her the facade she has been putting up for the last 30 years is cracking all around her. Her nightmare is just beginning - she should have come clean and admitted it at the time. She tried to get away with it and ultimately failed. But RR bares some responsibility for not bringing it to a head at the time or soon after. I just hope he fins the peace he is searching for.


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## Truthseeker1

stephscarlett said:


> this is a really good thread. Point is, your wife had MANY opportunities to do right and she failed nearly every time, especially the last time, when she COULD have done the right thing but chose not to. You are making the right (although hard) choice to let go. She has not changed. The defensiveness and lying are too much to get beyond.


She never had to do the serious internal work after an A to fix what was broken. It just lingered inside of her for 3 decades and then it all blew up. She must be bitter and angry now that her peaceful life was shot to hell.


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## JohnA

Wow, enjoy the trip. Do not forget the keys. It is number one on my to do list.

A question on your profession and the role it may have player in your journey. A doctor, who is dedicated to the preservation of life, knows they will lose. Mark twain who was a river boat captain on the mississippi claimed never to see it's beauty, only it's lurking danger. He compared to a doctor who upon seeing a vibrant young women, saw the disease and aging that would destroy it. 

A doctor only can improve the quality of life and prolong life. At the end they must accept the patient's death. Is this what you have done River Rat? 

Did you ever share with her your thoughts of suicide at the end? Does she even know the depth of your love. 

Abide in peace.


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## TAMAT

Truthseeker,

You wrote, *Her nightmare is just beginning - she should have come clean and admitted it at the time. She tried to get away with it and ultimately failed.*

Or for that matter just spontaneously came clean at any time. I have noticed that a person who is truly sorry and completely confesses is often forgiven right there and then. There is a visible sense of relief for both the betrayed and the wayward when this happens. 

Tamat


----------



## Marduk

This thread should be required reading to all wayward spouses who think "If I tell my spouse about my affair, I'd just be hurting them more."

Which really just means you want to come up with a justification for hypocrisy.


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## river rat

"A question on your profession and the role it may have played in your journey." 
JohnA, this question is central to everything that has happened in my life; the good and the bad. It has been the subject of long discussions with my therapist. Brene' Brown, in one her TED Talks, made the observation that when physicians are taught to suture human flesh, they are also taught to suture their own self esteem to the notion that they are infallible. Coming to grips with that on an intellectual level and on a gut level are two very different tasks, the latter being extremely difficult. That notion is what led to thoughts of suicide when I realized that I had failed. Yes, I have come to accept that I am fallible, as we all are. And the journey continues.


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## Truthseeker1

@river rat How is the road trip going? Any word about the STBXW? I hope you are in a place that is warm in the winter....


----------



## river rat

Hey, guys. Just checking in. It's nice to have somebody to talk to. I left all my friends in Va., and I really wouldn't want to talk to them about this stuff, anyway. I've had a good time traveling. Mostly camping and fishing, but I've found that sleeping on the ground is not as much fun as it used to be. But I've seen some beautiful places. I've settled in for a bit in Idaho, where I found a cabin on a month to month basis. It's pretty basic and has no heat other than a wood stove, so I'll be getting out of here by Thanksgiving. I've already found a place with a short term lease in Louisiana, on the water, and reasonably affordable, for the winter. The internet is a wonderful thing! I've stayed in touch with my kids. One of my sons mentioned that his mom had confessed that she really messed up things. Maybe she's starting to develop some self awareness as to how all of this happened. Anyway, not my problem anymore. My divorce becomes final in mid-Feb. I'm not planning on going back to Va until after that, if I go back at all. I wish the best to all of you, and thanks for your advice and understanding.


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## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> Hey, guys. Just checking in. It's nice to have somebody to talk to. I left all my friends in Va., and I really wouldn't want to talk to them about this stuff, anyway. I've had a good time traveling. Mostly camping and fishing, but I've found that sleeping on the ground is not as much fun as it used to be. But I've seen some beautiful places. I've settled in for a bit in Idaho, where I found a cabin on a month to month basis. It's pretty basic and has no heat other than a wood stove, so I'll be getting out of here by Thanksgiving. I've already found a place with a short term lease in Louisiana, on the water, and reasonably affordable, for the winter. The internet is a wonderful thing! I've stayed in touch with my kids. One of my sons mentioned that his mom had confessed that she really messed up things. Maybe she's starting to develop some self awareness as to how all of this happened. Anyway, not my problem anymore. My divorce becomes final in mid-Feb. I'm not planning on going back to Va until after that, if I go back at all. I wish the best to all of you, and thanks for your advice and understanding.


 @river rat Great hearing from you!!!! Hope the open road is treating you well!!! How are your kids dealing with the situation/


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## VeryHurt

RR ~
I just read your thread and I am teary-eyed. You have more dignity, strength and warmth in your big toe than my STBX has in his entire body. 
VH


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## Truthseeker1

VeryHurt said:


> RR ~
> I just read your thread and I am teary-eyed. You have more dignity, strength and warmth in your big toe than my STBX has in his entire body.
> VH


This thread should be required reading for TAM members..so many valuable lessons here for both the BS and the WS...


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## Dyokemm

The saddest part about your WW confessing she destroyed the M to your kids is this fact:

The A was actually long ago.....and you offered her forgiveness and a renewed M....AS LONG AS she helped you work through the betrayal to gain healing and closure.

The recent destruction of the M is less about the actual A 20+ years ago, but rather more about the fact that she stubbornly refused to deal with resolving the damage it had caused....the distance and lack of connection between you and your WW.

Her failure to engage you on this was at least as damaging as the original A itself.....and it is the choice she made 2 months ago, not the one she made over 20 years ago, that truly ended your M.


----------



## JohnA

Hi

A Rembrance about new olearns. In the early seventies my boy scout troop went on an extended trip and hiked the shilo valley civil war trails In late July. The heat and humility was unbearable. A troop from NO had the next site over. They were so cold they huddled in their sleeping bags.

Moral of the story - who knows. For me stay away from NO in July.

Be well


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## farsidejunky

Thanks for the update, brother.

Keep living for you.


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## Truthseeker1

Dyokemm said:


> The saddest part about your WW confessing she destroyed the M to your kids is this fact:
> 
> The A was actually long ago.....and you offered her forgiveness and a renewed M....AS LONG AS she helped you work through the betrayal to gain healing and closure.
> 
> The recent destruction of the M is less about the actual A 20+ years ago, but rather more about the fact that she stubbornly refused to deal with resolving the damage it had caused....the distance and lack of connection between you and your WW.
> 
> Her failure to engage you on this was at least as damaging as the original A itself.....and it is the choice she made 2 months ago, not the one she made over 20 years ago, that truly ended your M.


Agreed...that hickey on her neck and her "don't believe your own eyes" defense was the beginning of the end...well now she can spend the rest of her life thinking about it...


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## AlmostDone821

I read through this thread throughout the day. How sad for your family. It seems there are many issues at play here and while yes your wife did not own her crap years ago, you never forced it either. 

I'm in no way saying she is in the right because I don't believe infidelity is ever right no matter the circumstance but you are just as much to blame if not more for the years of rugsweeping as you stayed, did not push the issue and continued on. 

Now you decide you cannot live with it which is completely understandable but really all your doing is what you've always done which is run away so you don't have to have a confrontation about it. Honestly even though your kids are grown, you will have to see her eventually and the longer you drag out this non sense the worse it will be for the ones closest to you both.


----------



## Dyokemm

AlmostDone821 said:


> I read through this thread throughout the day. How sad for your family. It seems there are many issues at play here and while yes your wife did not own her crap years ago, you never forced it either.
> 
> I'm in no way saying she is in the right because I don't believe infidelity is ever right no matter the circumstance but you are just as much to blame if not more for the years of rugsweeping as you stayed, did not push the issue and continued on.
> 
> Now you decide you cannot live with it which is completely understandable but really all your doing is what you've always done which is run away so you don't have to have a confrontation about it. Honestly even though your kids are grown, you will have to see her eventually and the longer you drag out this non sense the worse it will be for the ones closest to you both.


She blew up on him and demanded a D rather than finally deal with the damage her A did to the M.

I agree he should not have rugswept for all those years....but he had every right to demand she help clean up the mess their M had become, a cold and emotionally detached roommate situation.

When she reacted like this, I don't see what else he could have done....would the situation be better for the family if he had blown up himself and gone on the warpath against her?

He met her refusal to own the consequences of her A by filing and cutting all contact with her.

He didn't demonize her on the way out or throw some petulant fit that embroiled the entire family in some soap opera drama-fest. 

So I don't see why you are criticizing him so harshly for simply removing an unrepentant traitor from his life.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Dyokemm said:


> She blew up on him and demanded a D rather than finally deal with the damage her A did to the M.
> 
> I agree he should not have rugswept for all those years....but he had every right to demand she help clean up the mess their M had become, a cold and emotionally detached roommate situation.
> 
> When she reacted like this, I don't see what else he could have done....would the situation be better for the family if he had blown up himself and gone on the warpath against her?
> 
> He met her refusal to own the consequences of her A by filing and cutting all contact with her.
> 
> He didn't demonize her on the way out or throw some petulant fit that embroiled the entire family in some soap opera drama-fest.
> 
> So I don't see why you are criticizing him so harshly for simply removing an unrepentant traitor from his life.


:iagree: Correct..RR should have brought it to a head years ago but her refusal to deal with it even now is on her...she'd rather he continue to suffer than to admit she cheated. As to his road trip -who are we to judge - after 30 years of bullsh!t from his wife perhaps he needs this to decompress...Do I believe he will go home again? Sure - but I understand why now - he does not know if he even wants to. ..lets see - its him, his guitar, his dog and the open road or going back to Va to a toxic STBXW and the mountain of bullsh!t that comes along with that...hmmmm...tough choice...

Also to his credit he did not vilify her to their kids and he could have easily done that...I say he enjoys this time on his own while he can...


----------



## VeryHurt

I wish I had the nerve (I'm female so it would be odd to say balls) to walk away and never look back. I admire RR for what he is doing as he needs to save his soul from further damage. 

My Mom used to say to, "What isn't done, isn't found out." 

Perhaps she was referring to things such as a hickey?


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## river rat

AlmostDone, you are right about some of your observations. Do I wish that I had confronted this long ago? Yes. Would the outcome have been different? Probably not. At the time of the A, my pride would not have allowed me to accept that it happened. Had she confessed, I probably would have walked away. I believe she knew that. Not making excuses for either of us, just making an observation. Our relationship became a lot like the frog placed in a pot on the stove with the water temperature gradually increasing to boiling. The frog will stay in the pot because he does not perceive the situation for what it is. In our case, I finally realized that, hey, we're in boiling water here! I got out of the pot. She declined to do so. Am I living out an adolescent fantasy? Sure, and I am aware of that. It's just that it feels so good to be out of that damn boiling water! There are family and financial issues that remain to be sorted out. I will eventually have to deal with them. But for now, I think all parties need some time to process what has happened. In the meantime, I'm going to enjoy my life.


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## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> AlmostDone, you are right about some of your observations. Do I wish that I had confronted this long ago? Yes. Would the outcome have been different? Probably not. At the time of the A, my pride would not have allowed me to accept that it happened. Had she confessed, I probably would have walked away. I believe she knew that. Not making excuses for either of us, just making an observation. Our relationship became a lot like the frog placed in a pot on the stove with the water temperature gradually increasing to boiling. The frog will stay in the pot because he does not perceive the situation for what it is. In our case, I finally realized that, hey, we're in boiling water here! I got out of the pot. She declined to do so.* Am I living out an adolescent fantasy? Sure, and I am aware of that.* It's just that it feels so good to be out of that damn boiling water! There are family and financial issues that remain to be sorted out. I will eventually have to deal with them. But for now, I think all parties need some time to process what has happened. In the meantime, I'm going to enjoy my life.


 @river rat You've earned this time away....let it help you heal and grow...eff the rest of it for now..let your wife stew she's earned her punishment...


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## river rat

Truthseeker, thank you. I'm not looking at this as punishment for her. I really don't wish more suffering on her than we've both already endured. But at this point, I can't help her. You're right; this is a time for healing for me and for growth as well. I hope she uses the time as well.


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## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> Truthseeker, thank you. I'm not looking at this as punishment for her. I really don't wish more suffering on her than we've both already endured. But at this point, I can't help her. You're right; this is a time for healing for me and for growth as well. I hope she uses the time as well.


 @river rat I'm not counting on her learning anything quickly from what you have described she will either rewrite marital history or minimize the event for some time to come..enjoy the open road and being out of the boiling water of your marriage...are oyur kids supportive of you and your decision?


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## carmen ohio

river rat said:


> Hey, guys. Just checking in. It's nice to have somebody to talk to. I left all my friends in Va., and I really wouldn't want to talk to them about this stuff, anyway. I've had a good time traveling. Mostly camping and fishing, but I've found that sleeping on the ground is not as much fun as it used to be. But I've seen some beautiful places. I've settled in for a bit in Idaho, where I found a cabin on a month to month basis. It's pretty basic and has no heat other than a wood stove, so I'll be getting out of here by Thanksgiving. I've already found a place with a short term lease in Louisiana, on the water, and reasonably affordable, for the winter. The internet is a wonderful thing! I've stayed in touch with my kids. One of my sons mentioned that his mom had confessed that she really messed up things. Maybe she's starting to develop some self awareness as to how all of this happened. Anyway, not my problem anymore. My divorce becomes final in mid-Feb. I'm not planning on going back to Va until after that, if I go back at all. I wish the best to all of you, and thanks for your advice and understanding.


Yours has to be one of the greatest TAM/CWI turn-around stories of all time.

It only goes to show that it's never too late to start doing right by oneself.


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## Truthseeker1

carmen ohio said:


> Yours has to be one of the greatest TAM/CWI turn-around stories of all time.
> 
> *It only goes to show that it's never too late to start doing right by oneself.*


It is also a lesson for WSs - if you dont deal with your infidelity correctly don't assume you got away with it...becuase it will come back and bite you in the a**....


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## MattMatt

Truthseeker1 said:


> It is also a lesson for WSs - if you dont deal with your infidelity correctly don't assume you got away with it...becuase it will come back and bite you in the a**....


My wife's idea of dealing with her affair was to just ignore it.

She even got cross with me when I couldn't maintain an erection once or twice after the affair was over.  

After my RA, well, _then_ we talked, the talks we should have had after her affair.


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## Truthseeker1

MattMatt said:


> My wife's idea of dealing with her affair was to just ignore it.
> 
> She even got cross with me when I couldn't maintain an erection once or twice after the affair was over.
> 
> *After my RA, well, then we talked, the talks we should have had after her affair.*


Sometimes an RA is indeed the good swift kick in the a** the WS needs to really understand what they have done...I know RAs are discouraged but in many cases they might be just the thing to make the WS realize what they have done...


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## workindad

RR, very happy for you, sounds like you are finally on your long overdue path to recovery.

This is one of the reasons that I advocate strongly against rug sweeping. You can't manage a serious cancer by ignoring it.

Peace, healing and happiness on your journey!

WD


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## Roselyn

OP, glad to see that you are taking care of yourself and exploring the world around you. Your wife is not remorseful and definitely feeling entitled as a cheater. You've waited to have your life back, far too long. Best wishes to you on your personal endeavors.


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## Adelais

rr, please keep your thread going, as it shows that rugsweeping doesn't work, even when the BS loves their WS and "understands" their WS'es unhealthy childhood issues.

I'm so glad that you decided to get your truths, even though your W refused to admit what she did. You went from wish-washy to decisive because of your courage to point out the elephant in the room and talk about it.

Your wife thought she got away with it, and all the while she didn't realize your love was dying. Every wayward who thinks that years of denial works should read your thread.

Best wishes.


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## river rat

Got an interesting call over the weekend from a dear friend, who is also a partner in my former practice. She wanted to know WTH was going on w/ me. Apparently, stories are starting to trickle out. So I gave her the overview of the affair, my depression afterward, our failure to deal with the issues, and the inexorable erosion of the marriage until there was nothing left. She said,"You know I'm on your side." I told her there was no battle and no need to take a side. She said she'd take charge of my social life when I came home and make me a "hot commodity" on the over 40 dating circuit. I laughed and told her that it might be awhile before I was ready for anything like that. She said she still had a lot of questions, so, after swearing her to confidentiality, I gave her the name of this website and my user name. She asked why I didn't come to her before with this (she's been like a younger sister to me). I told her that I was ashamed. She closed the call with, "I'll always have your back." I disconnected the call, and for the first time since I left home, I broke down. Sorry. Gotta take a break.


----------



## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> Got an interesting call over the weekend from a dear friend, who is also a partner in my former practice. She wanted to know WTH was going on w/ me. Apparently, stories are starting to trickle out. So I gave her the overview of the affair, my depression afterward, our failure to deal with the issues, and the inexorable erosion of the marriage until there was nothing left. She said,"You know I'm on your side." I told her there was no battle and no need to take a side. She said she'd take charge of my social life when I came home and make me a "hot commodity" on the over 40 dating circuit. I laughed and told her that it might be awhile before I was ready for anything like that. She said she still had a lot of questions, so, after swearing her to confidentiality, I gave her the name of this website and my user name. She asked why I didn't come to her before with this (she's been like a younger sister to me). I told her that I was ashamed. She closed the call with, "I'll always have your back." I disconnected the call, and for the first time since I left home, I broke down. Sorry. Gotta take a break.


 @river rat We are all on your side - we always have been - even when swinging the 2 x 4s...you were never alone..ever...


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## farsidejunky

Because you are finally starting to face this. 

Like you, I too falsely believed you were dealing with the emotional side of this well. Turns out we were both wrong, brother.

Embrace the pain. Rip the band aid off. Allow yourself to heal. Only by embracing the suck can you work your way through it.

And there is no shame in your emotions flooding you while you grieve the loss of what could have been.

Keep posting, RR, and take care.


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## TAMAT

riverrat,

You wrote, *So I gave her the overview of the affair, my depression afterward, our failure to deal with the issues, and the inexorable erosion of the marriage until there was nothing left. *

Nice to be able to talk to someone about the affair isn't it. This is one of the blessings of exposure, it relieves the betrayed spouse of having to maintain the wayward spouses secret. 

Tamat


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## Truthseeker1

TAMAT said:


> riverrat,
> 
> You wrote, *So I gave her the overview of the affair, my depression afterward, our failure to deal with the issues, and the inexorable erosion of the marriage until there was nothing left. *
> 
> Nice to be able to talk to someone about the affair isn't it. This is one of the blessings of exposure, it relieves the betrayed spouse of having to maintain the wayward spouses secret.
> 
> Tamat


And his STBXW can no longer keep up the facade nw that more and more people will know about her affair. I do wonder how she is coping.


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## river rat

My middle son called me today, very upset with his mom, me, and the whole situation. My STBXW had admitted to him that she had an affair, but basically blamed it on me. She told him that I was working so many hours and gone so much that she felt abandoned. ( There is a grain of truth in that part. One of our doctors retired and another was out on extended maternity leave, with just two of us left to carry the burden. It was a lot like my internship- working 12 hour days and on call every other night. That went on four about 6 months). She told him that the affair was something that she needed to do for herself. I called total BS on that. I explained to him that this little thing that "she did for herself" damn near killed me and totally destroyed our family. He had questions, and I answered whatever he asked. He closed with, "Thanks for talking to me, Dad. I love you." So I guess she can tell herself (and anybody who'll listen) whatever it takes for her to get through the day. But that just confirms for me that I've made the right decision. I have to go back to Va. to clean up some loose financial ends. It will be a good opportunity to see my kids. I may be gone for awhile, so I'd like to thank you all once again for your support and advice.


----------



## GusPolinski

river rat said:


> My middle son called me today, very upset with his mom, me, and the whole situation. *My STBXW had admitted to him that she had an affair, but basically blamed it on me. She told him that I was working so many hours and gone so much that she felt abandoned.* ( There is a grain of truth in that part. One of our doctors retired and another was out on extended maternity leave, with just two of us left to carry the burden. It was a lot like my internship- working 12 hour days and on call every other night. That went on four about 6 months). She told him that the affair was something that she needed to do for herself. I called total BS on that. I explained to him that this little thing that "she did for herself" damn near killed me and totally destroyed our family. He had questions, and I answered whatever he asked. He closed with, "Thanks for talking to me, Dad. I love you." So I guess she can tell herself (and anybody who'll listen) whatever it takes for her to get through the day. But that just confirms for me that I've made the right decision. I have to go back to Va. to clean up some loose financial ends. It will be a good opportunity to see my kids. I may be gone for awhile, so I'd like to thank you all once again for your support and advice.


Ah. Conditional morality at its finest.


----------



## farsidejunky

Nothing like her opening her mouth and affirming exactly why you are doing what you are doing.

Keep being great, brother.


----------



## TAMAT

RR,

I'm very glad you finally got confirmation of what you already knew.

Do you know who the OM is so you can do his spouse or SO a kindness?

Tamat


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## workindad

She needed to do that for herself... while you were out busting your arse to provide the best life you could for the family.

Dang, she's a real keeper NOT!

No remorse or even ownership of her actions. You are on the right path.

I wonder if she ever considered your needs during this time period, wait- someone else in the world had needs and desires in the world beside her?

Keep pressing forward with your life and healing.

I'm glad that your children know the truth as they are old enough to have honest answers to their questions.

Best
WD


----------



## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> My middle son called me today, very upset with his mom, me, and the whole situation. *My STBXW had admitted to him that she had an affair, but basically blamed it on me. She told him that I was working so many hours and gone so much that she felt abandoned. *( There is a grain of truth in that part. One of our doctors retired and another was out on extended maternity leave, with just two of us left to carry the burden. It was a lot like my internship- working 12 hour days and on call every other night. That went on four about 6 months). *She told him that the affair was something that she needed to do for herself. * I called total BS on that. I explained to him that this little thing that "she did for herself" damn near killed me and totally destroyed our family. He had questions, and I answered whatever he asked. He closed with, "Thanks for talking to me, Dad. I love you." So I guess she can tell herself (and anybody who'll listen) whatever it takes for her to get through the day. But that just confirms for me that I've made the right decision. I have to go back to Va. to clean up some loose financial ends. It will be a good opportunity to see my kids. I may be gone for awhile, so I'd like to thank you all once again for your support and advice.


 @river rat From what you have revealed in this thread about your soon STBXW this does not surprise me at all...she has zero remorse and is in full blame-shifting mode...if you harbored any doubts about this - this should wipe those doubts away..what a fvkcing piece of work she is...what a sad mess she is...


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## ConanHub

Keep us updated about where you might be performing. If your ever in my area, I'll come give a listen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JohnA

Actually her admitting to her son that she did have an affair at all Shocks me. I have read river rat's other threads and until he confronted her she thought they had an unspoken agreement. In his other posts he mentioned how she had done everything he could have asked for:transparency, etc without being asked. I also read in disbelief her reaction when she found his journal where he wrote about his SI period. 

Perhaps this marks the start of a period of reflection and personal growth for her into a better person. It may also mean she will shorty move to the villages in Florida. The largest retirement community in the country. It also has the highest rate of STDs,


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## Dyokemm

This was to be expected.

She knew when your M blew up so suddenly that friends, family, and your kids were going to have major WTF? moments.

And she also knows you were not going to keep her secret anymore....and who knows, some of the friends and family may have already known/been confidants of her in the past, and now that it was blow open they were bound to spill the beans to you, kids, etc, at some point.

So her only option (in her unremorseful eyes) was to go into blameshifting attack mode....admitting her A but firmly telling everyone it was all your fault.

You offered her forgiveness and love if she helped you heal....with this attitude, she has proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that she did not deserve your offer.

RR, keep healing and moving on to a better future.


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## Truthseeker1

Dyokemm said:


> This was to be expected.
> 
> She knew when your M blew up so suddenly that friends, family, and your kids were going to have major WTF? moments.
> 
> And she also knows you were not going to keep her secret anymore....and who knows, some of the friends and family may have already known/been confidants of her in the past, and now that it was blow open they were bound to spill the beans to you, kids, etc, at some point.
> 
> So her only option (in her unremorseful eyes) was to go into blameshifting attack mode....admitting her A but firmly telling everyone it was all your fault.
> 
> *You offered her forgiveness and love if she helped you heal....with this attitude, she has proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that she did not deserve your offer.*
> 
> RR, keep healing and moving on to a better future.


She deserves to suffer until she realizes what she has done and takes 100% blame for being a cheater...RR deserves to be happy and live out his days in peace - wherever that may be and whatever that may entail...30 years is along time to suffer - her suffering should be just as long...


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## ivory

river rat said:


> One of my sons mentioned that his mom had confessed that she really messed up things.


When I read this, in my heart I had hope that she meant this to go to you through your son as a way to communicate an acknowledgement that she was wrong and that she was sorry. Being one of those gushy "lean re-unite" types, and remembering your post that nothing short of D would get her attention, I hoped that you had finally woke her up. 



river rat said:


> the affair was something that she needed to do for herself.


Oh my that is one of those horribly unforgettable phrases. And we all know what those are, right? Something to try to figure out for decades later. But this one says so much in just one line. That her affair was premeditated, something she intended to have in her life. That she doesn't regret it, that she deserved to have it. And that her experiment worked, that she certainly did enjoy herself while building what she considers to be nice memories, and enjoyed hurting you while she was at it. 

Yet you are right rr... it is BS in that she didn't "need" the affair. She wanted it, and she set out to have it. For certain though, you didn't need that in your life. But since she just had to have it, It would have been better if she would have told you that years ago in the closet when you asked her about the passion mark. Instead of saying that you did it, she should have been honest and let you know that the passion mark was "something that she needed to do for herself." That would have told you everything that you needed to know and would have saved you many years of suffering and perhaps much of that darkness that you had to live through. 

I think for most of us on this board here rr, you are our hero. Its good to see a good guy come out ok once in a while.


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## happyman64

No doubt whatsoever.

And what a lame excuse to give to her son.

He will figure it out for himself and realize what a horrible decision his Mom made that affects the entire family.


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## Truthseeker1

happyman64 said:


> No doubt whatsoever.
> 
> And what a lame excuse to give to her son.
> 
> He will figure it out for himself and realize what a horrible decision his Mom made that affects the entire family.


RR's STBXW becomes even more unsympathetic by the minute and I didn't think that was possible...

His decision was the right one..no doubt about it...


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## river rat

JohnA, I believe that you are correct that she thought we had an unspoken agreement. I'm certain that my failure to confront her about her affair contributed to this. But she also knew how badly I was hurt, and she had to see how our relationship had deteriorated over the years. She chose to ignore these things, or perhaps she just didn't know how to deal with them. I asked her to go with me to counseling on multiple occasions, but she always refused. When I brought the issue into the open, I think that she was overwhelmed, and that's why she verbally attacked rather than engaging construcively. In any case, I have seen that she has become someone that I do not want in my life. I wish her well, but not with me.


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## GusPolinski

river rat said:


> JohnA, I believe that you are correct that she thought we had an unspoken agreement. I'm certain that my failure to confront her about her affair contributed to this. But she also knew how badly I was hurt, and she had to see how our relationship had deteriorated over the years. She chose to ignore these things, or *perhaps she just didn't know how to deal with them.* I asked her to go with me to counseling on multiple occasions, but she always refused. When I brought the issue into the open, I think that she was overwhelmed, and that's why she verbally attacked rather than engaging construcively. In any case, I have seen that she has become someone that I do not want in my life. I wish her well, but not with me.


It's clear by her reaction that she didn't WANT to deal w/ them.


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## farsidejunky

Foe just a moment, RR, let's forget about her. How are YOU doing?


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## river rat

Farside, thanks for asking. I'm doing ok. I'm back in Va for a few days. Went by to visit each of my kids. Sad and a bit awkward, some difficult discussion, but I think they all understand why I've had to do this. Met with the accountant and atty. Looks like a pretty fair split of assets. She gets the house,I get the river cabin, everything else 50/50. Heading out to Louisiana in the next few days.


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## workindad

Enjoy every minute of it and best of luck while you continue down your path of healing.

WD


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## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> Farside, thanks for asking. I'm doing ok. I'm back in Va for a few days. Went by to visit each of my kids. Sad and a bit awkward, some difficult discussion, but I think they all understand why I've had to do this. Met with the accountant and atty. Looks like a pretty fair split of assets. She gets the house,I get the river cabin, everything else 50/50. Heading out to Louisiana in the next few days.


 @river rat Glad you are communicating honestly with your kids....how are they dealing with their mother?


Enjoy your winter in Louisiana...


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## Graywolf2

river rat said:


> My STBXW had admitted to him that she had an affair, but basically blamed it on me. She told him that I was working so many hours and gone so much that she felt abandoned. ( There is a grain of truth in that part. One of our doctors retired and another was out on extended maternity leave, with just two of us left to carry the burden. It was a lot like my internship- working 12 hour days and on call every other night. That went on four about 6 months).


It sounds like you’re a physician and working long hours to keep the practice going was an evil thing according to your wife. So I’m sure in the divorce settlement she will want only her split of what you would have earned in a 40 hour a week job with weekends off.


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## Truthseeker1

Graywolf2 said:


> It sounds like you’re a physician and working long hours to keep the practice going was an evil thing according to your wife. So I’m sure in the divorce settlement she will want only her split of what you would have earned in a 40 hour a week job with weekends off.


She gets it both ways - her lifestyle and her affair - she is quite the piece of work...isnt she?


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## river rat

TS1, we didn't talk about how she's doing or their communication with her. Just about how we got here. I hope they will learn from our mistakes. My atty did say that she had asked him if there was any chance that we could talk about this. I just said no. Graywolf, I really don't mind her taking half. We had a long life together. Besides, she spends a lot more than I doj, and she'll feel the loss of income. I really won't. Well, gotta get ready for the next move west. I really appreciate the compassion and friendship you all have provided. I'll update at some point, probably after the divorce is final.


----------



## Graywolf2

river rat said:


> Graywolf, I really don't mind her taking half. We had a long life together. Besides, she spends a lot more than I do, and she'll feel the loss of income. I really won't.


I understand. It’s just that a spouse being away from home because they’re working their ass off is commonly used as a reason for an affair. I’m just making the general point that in a perfect world the WS wouldn’t get both the excuse and the evil money in the divorce.


----------



## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> TS1, we didn't talk about how she's doing or their communication with her. Just about how we got here. I hope they will learn from our mistakes. My atty did say that she had asked him if there was any chance that we could talk about this. I just said no. Graywolf, I really don't mind her taking half. We had a long life together. Besides, she spends a lot more than I doj, and she'll feel the loss of income. I really won't. Well, gotta get ready for the next move west. I really appreciate the compassion and friendship you all have provided. I'll update at some point, probably after the divorce is final.


I'm glad they know the truth...they should see her for who she is - ALL of it...


----------



## happyman64

> I really don't mind her taking half. We had a long life together.


And that is why you are going to be fine.

Good Luck on the move.


HM


----------



## carmen ohio

river rat said:


> TS1, we didn't talk about how she's doing or their communication with her. Just about how we got here. I hope they will learn from our mistakes. My atty did say that she had asked him if there was any chance that we could talk about this. I just said no. Graywolf, I really don't mind her taking half. We had a long life together. Besides, she spends a lot more than I doj, and she'll feel the loss of income. I really won't. Well, gotta get ready for the next move west. I really appreciate the compassion and friendship you all have provided. I'll update at some point, probably after the divorce is final.


Golly, how I love happy endings.


----------



## Dyokemm

river rat said:


> TS1, we didn't talk about how she's doing or their communication with her. Just about how we got here. I hope they will learn from our mistakes. My atty did say that she had asked him if there was any chance that we could talk about this. I just said no. Graywolf, I really don't mind her taking half. We had a long life together. Besides, she spends a lot more than I doj, and she'll feel the loss of income. I really won't. Well, gotta get ready for the next move west. I really appreciate the compassion and friendship you all have provided. I'll update at some point, probably after the divorce is final.


RR,

So if she was to communicate to you, with true remorse, that she is willing to begin the healing you first asked her for and apologized for reacting so poorly, would you reconsider?

Or did this episode kill any desire to R at all?

I agree with you nixing a 'talk' with her with no indication she wants to say anything to you other than blameshifting for the A and anger that you have 'pulled up the rug' after all these years in order to clean up the mess.


----------



## river rat

Would I reconsider? No. I've come to realize that the process of detaching myself from the pain destroyed my love for her. And I don't think there'd be any point in trying to rebuild a life with someone that you don't love and can never trust.


----------



## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> Would I reconsider? No. I've come to realize that the process of detaching myself from the pain destroyed my love for her. And I don't think there'd be any point in trying to rebuild a life with someone that you don't love and can never trust.


 @river rat and probably don't respect correct?


----------



## Dyokemm

river rat said:


> Would I reconsider? No. I've come to realize that the process of detaching myself from the pain destroyed my love for her. And I don't think there'd be any point in trying to rebuild a life with someone that you don't love and can never trust.


I suspected as much.

I think her angry outburst and refusal to address the A was essentially a repeat performance of the same attitude and mindset that allowed the A to happen in the first place.

In other words, despite all the years of relative calm since your discovery, you saw that she was still the exact same woman who had betrayed you.....she has obviously not learned a thing from her A or grown into a better person since then.....no self-reflection.....no re-dedication to becoming a better woman and learning from her mistake.

The fact that she did tell you a few years ago 'Thank you for not leaving me' might have suggested that she had reflected on her A and changed herself, despite the fact that there was no D-Day and R process that you both worked through......but her reaction proved that to be a resounding NO....she has truly learned nothing, probably only reinforced in her own mind why she was right to do it because of how YOU were at the time.

I can totally understand how seeing that she never did any work to change herself would kill any love or desire for her in you today.


----------



## river rat

Thought I'd check in with an update. I hope you all had a good Thanksgiving. Instead of turkey this year, I had catfish, just to celebrate something new. I've settled into my new digs. Enjoying my new community. I've met a group of folks here who get together on weekends to play music, and I think this is where I'll find my friends. My STBXW has recently started to lean on my middle son as her confidante. I suspect that this is meant to open an avenue of communication with me. Or maybe it has nothing at all to do with me, who knows? Anyway, she has revealed to him that the year of her affair was also the year that her mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. Her explanation was that she felt her life slipping away, and she panicked. She reached out for something to make her feel alive. Helps to understand her frame of mind, I guess, but doesn't change the facts. Anyway, I'm counting down until Feb when the divorce becomes final.


----------



## TeddieG

river rat said:


> Thought I'd check in with an update. I hope you all had a good Thanksgiving. Instead of turkey this year, I had catfish, just to celebrate something new. I've settled into my new digs. Enjoying my new community. I've met a group of folks here who get together on weekends to play music, and I think this is where I'll find my friends. My STBXW has recently started to lean on my middle son as her confidante. I suspect that this is meant to open an avenue of communication with me. Or maybe it has nothing at all to do with me, who knows? Anyway, she has revealed to him that the year of her affair was also the year that her mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. Her explanation was that she felt her life slipping away, and she panicked. She reached out for something to make her feel alive. Helps to understand her frame of mind, I guess, but doesn't change the facts. Anyway, I'm counting down until Feb when the divorce becomes final.


Thanks for the update, RR. I spent 7 years trying to understand h's motivations, but as you say, it doesn't change the facts. He finally pulled a stunt that destroyed my desire to care. I think it is possible she wants to send you explanations or reasons. You guys were together a long time and it has probably been a great opportunity, once you left, for her to mull over her reasoning and motivation. Of course, some WS's want to justify or explain their behavior as a way of putting off dealing with their POS tendencies, but I also think that there's a part of them that doesn't understand or care why they did what they did, they just went with how they felt and the temptation/opportunity that was put in front of them. 

What is interesting to me is that as long as you were there, she never dealt with (never HAD to deal with?) her own motivations and lack of boundaries or commitment, but when the truth hits like a 2 x 4 and the cheater realizes the damage s/he's done to the faithful spouse, the opportunity to reflect is unmistakable. It seems to me that when the faithful spouse is gone, the cheating spouse realizes that the choices made don't rise to the seeming complaints or irritations or annoyances they had with the faithful spouse. 

You're in such a good place. I didn't want divorce but he was adamant he did and wanted it badly, I couldn't wait for it to be over. Hang in there. Time flies, and February is just around the corner.


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## Pluto2

river rat said:


> Thought I'd check in with an update. I hope you all had a good Thanksgiving. Instead of turkey this year, I had catfish, just to celebrate something new. I've settled into my new digs. Enjoying my new community. I've met a group of folks here who get together on weekends to play music, and I think this is where I'll find my friends. My STBXW has recently started to lean on my middle son as her confidante. I suspect that this is meant to open an avenue of communication with me. Or maybe it has nothing at all to do with me, who knows? Anyway, she has revealed to him that the year of her affair was also the year that her mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. Her explanation was that she felt her life slipping away, and she panicked. She reached out for something to make her feel alive. Helps to understand her frame of mind, I guess, but doesn't change the facts. Anyway, I'm counting down until Feb when the divorce becomes final.


I thought her first story to your middle son was that it was your fault for long work hours, now its sort of on her inability to handle her mom's illness. Still doesn't change anything.

And did you catch that catfish?


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## Graywolf2

river rat said:


> Anyway, she has revealed to him that the year of her affair was also the year that her mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. Her explanation was that she felt her life slipping away, and she panicked.


She’s doing this to change the dynamic and get herself some victim points. Now you’re the good guy victim and she’s bad. This excuse makes the difference between you two on the victim scale less dramatic.

Of course I don’t know but I think a significant part of her motivation to get back with you is her reputation. You are the major injured party. If you get back with her, or are friends, then what she did must not have been so bad. 

If you forgive her then how can less injured people hold back their forgiveness? She can say to your kids: "Your father forgave me, why can't you." You are the one priest that can give her absolution. Once she has that I think she will be fine on her own in the house with money.


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## MattMatt

river rat said:


> Thought I'd check in with an update. I hope you all had a good Thanksgiving. Instead of turkey this year, I had catfish, just to celebrate something new. I've settled into my new digs. Enjoying my new community. I've met a group of folks here who get together on weekends to play music, and I think this is where I'll find my friends. My STBXW has recently started to lean on my middle son as her confidante. I suspect that this is meant to open an avenue of communication with me. Or maybe it has nothing at all to do with me, who knows? Anyway, she has revealed to him that the year of her affair was also the year that her mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. Her explanation was that she felt her life slipping away, and she panicked. She reached out for something to make her feel alive. Helps to understand her frame of mind, I guess, but doesn't change the facts. Anyway, I'm counting down until Feb when the divorce becomes final.


So it was not only your fault, but her mother's fault, too?

Your ex is special, but not in a good, positive way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## river rat

Matt, I think that her mom's diagnosis tells something of her state of mind at the time. Her maternal grandfather died of that disease. She has always feared that she would also be afflicted with dementia. It's too bad that she did not reveal all of it years ago, when we still had a marriage to save. As it stands now, I've moved on, and I don't feel that it will be my place to help her, whatever comes.


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## Graywolf2

river rat said:


> Anyway, she has revealed to him that the year of her affair was also the year that her mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. *Her explanation was that she felt her life slipping away, and she panicked*.





river rat said:


> I think that her mom's diagnosis tells something of her state of mind at the time. Her maternal grandfather died of that disease. She has always feared that she would also be afflicted with dementia.


I think that this did contribute to her having the affair. Except instead of "she felt her life slipping away, and she panicked" it's "she felt her life slipping away and wanted to have some fun before it was too late."


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## ivory

river rat said:


> Matt, I think that her mom's diagnosis tells something of her state of mind at the time. Her maternal grandfather died of that disease. She has always feared that she would also be afflicted with dementia. It's too bad that she did not reveal all of it years ago, when we still had a marriage to save. As it stands now, I've moved on, and I don't feel that it will be my place to help her, whatever comes.


Sure... It was the year that she met her OM and this is but one of many of the convenient escape clauses that may have crossed her mind at the time. Now she tries this as another flimsy angle on your heart. Blaming you didn't work out so well rr. 

She got real when she said told your son "Having an affair was something I had to do for myself." I like my ex's reasoning even better... "Love is not enough." (I was in school, d-day during finals weeks)


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## GusPolinski

ivory said:


> Sure... It was the year that she met her OM and this is but one of many of the convenient escape clauses that may have crossed her mind at the time. Now she tries this as another flimsy angle on your heart. Blaming you didn't work out so well rr.
> 
> She got real when she said told your son *"Having an affair was something I had to do for myself."* I like my ex's reasoning even better... "Love is not enough." (I was in school, d-day during finals weeks)


My response to any wayward that would whip this gem out...

OK... so then why not proudly proclaim it? Why not tell your spouse that you "needed" it? And I don't mean after the fact, but rather BEFORE embarking upon it or, at the very least, while in the midst of it?


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## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> Thought I'd check in with an update. I hope you all had a good Thanksgiving. Instead of turkey this year, I had catfish, just to celebrate something new. I've settled into my new digs. Enjoying my new community. I've met a group of folks here who get together on weekends to play music, and I think this is where I'll find my friends. My STBXW has recently started to lean on my middle son as her confidante. I suspect that this is meant to open an avenue of communication with me. Or maybe it has nothing at all to do with me, who knows? *Anyway, she has revealed to him that the year of her affair was also the year that her mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. Her explanation was that she felt her life slipping away, and she panicked. She reached out for something to make her feel alive. * Helps to understand her frame of mind, I guess, but doesn't change the facts. Anyway, I'm counting down until Feb when the divorce becomes final.





river rat said:


> Matt, I think that her mom's diagnosis tells something of her state of mind at the time. Her maternal grandfather died of that disease. She has always feared that she would also be afflicted with dementia. *It's too bad that she did not reveal all of it years ago, when we still had a marriage to save. As it stands now, I've moved on, and I don't feel that it will be my place to help her, whatever comes.*


To be honest he excuse is just that an excuse - she felt afraid and had an affair - okkkkk - then she proceeded to sit back and watch you suffer for DECADES and DECADES to the point of mental breakdown to hide the affair - no she is full of so much sh!t it is not even funny - her "revelation' is nothing of the sort - she is engaging in another form of blame shifting from you to her mothers condition - *she is trying to save face with your kids and still be the saintly one and now a victim too of course*..she just had to feel alive - uh huh - the bottom line is she wanted to - did it - and then let you carry around the weight of it without a hint of concern - she deserves to be alone...

I'm glad you have moved on - no u-turns my friend - leave her a** where it belongs in the rear view mirror...


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## Mustbecrazy

BS.

Unloading on your middle child is extremely unfair. What happened was between the two of you and did not involve your children. Children deserve the gift of ignorance; to compromise this by trying to manipulate them into being a peacemaker is unconscionable. 

If this were to happen in my relationship, I would explain to my child that what goes on in his relationship with his mother is his decision, but I feel that it's a terrible imposition to burden him with the sordid details of bad adult behavior, and he is free to tell her that he doesn't want to hear about it and to make the topic off limits.


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## Truthseeker1

Mustbecrazy said:


> BS.
> 
> Unloading on your middle child is extremely unfair. What happened was between the two of you and did not involve your children. Children deserve the gift of ignorance; to compromise this by trying to manipulate them into being a peacemaker is unconscionable.
> 
> If this were to happen in my relationship, I would explain to my child that what goes on in his relationship with his mother is his decision, but I feel that it's a terrible imposition to burden him with the sordid details of bad adult behavior, and he is free to tell her that he doesn't want to hear about it and to make the topic off limits.


She is in 100% manipulation mode - she is trying to control the fallout and look like she is the victim too...this shows me she has not one ounce of remorse - not one - it is still all about her...


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## GusPolinski

Well, to be fair, their children are adults, and I'm sure they've been asking questions.

Still, you'd like to think that parents would own their bullsh*t in order to set a proper example for their children, whether they're (the children, that is) adults or not.

Seems to be a pretty tall order for a lot of folks, though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## river rat

Wow. Thanks for all the feedback. You're really a tough love crowd. But I needed to hear it. Just to be clear, I wasn't waffling about going back. Took me too long to find the path out of there. As I said before, the facts are the same, no matter the explanation. Thanks, guys.


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## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> Wow. Thanks for all the feedback. You're really a tough love crowd. But I needed to hear it. Just to be clear, I wasn't waffling about going back. Took me too long to find the path out of there. As I said before, the facts are the same, no matter the explanation. Thanks, guys.


We want you to be happy with a partner that deserves you - your STBXW doesnt make you happy and doesnt deserve you...let her spend all her spare time rationalizing why she would betray and then let suffer someone she vowed to love and cherish - she has zero gult or remorse about the affair...all she cares about is the person she sees in the mirror every morning....how is your son reacting to his moms desire for him to be her confidant?


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## MattMatt

GusPolinski said:


> My response to any wayward that would whip this gem out...
> 
> OK... so then why not proudly proclaim it? Why not tell your spouse that you "needed" it? And I don't mean after the fact, but rather BEFORE embarking upon it or, at the very least, while in the midst of it?


Because if they tell their spouse, that means they need their spouse to be comfortable with the idea.

If they do not tell their spouse then they are either ashamed of what they intend to do or part of the pleasure of the affair is the knowledge that they are putting one over on their clueless spouse.


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## Truthseeker1

MattMatt said:


> Because if they tell their spouse, that means they need their spouse to be comfortable with the idea.
> 
> If they do not tell their spouse then they are either ashamed of what they intend to do or *part of the pleasure of the affair is the knowledge that they are putting one over on their clueless spouse*.


The secrecy is part of the allure.. - its fun - it all a good time until its time to pay the piper..then the tears start or in many many cases they walk away from the devastation they caused...those are the most contemptible ..a cruel way to get ones rocks off dont you think?


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## MattMatt

Truthseeker1 said:


> The secrecy is part of the allure.. - its fun - it all a good time until its time to pay the piper..then the tears start or in many many cases they walk away from the devastation they caused...those are the most contemptible ..a cruel way to get ones rocks off dont you think?


Very cruel. And they have such little regard for their children, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## knobcreek

No rug sweep is ever successful, you'll have fine moments, maybe a lot of them, but in the end it eats away at you like a cancer until one day you simply have to address it or lose your mind.


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## GusPolinski

MattMatt said:


> Because if they tell their spouse, that means they need their spouse to be comfortable with the idea.
> 
> If they do not tell their spouse then they are either ashamed of what they intend to do or part of the pleasure of the affair is the knowledge that they are putting one over on their clueless spouse.


Matt, there's only ever been one answer to that question...


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## tom67

GusPolinski said:


> Matt, there's only ever been one answer to that question...


Stop it Gus it's fruit cake season...>


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## Truthseeker1

MattMatt said:


> Very cruel. *And they have such little regard for their children, too.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


^^^ This is not said enough - their affair not only does damage to their spouse but the WHOLE family. While they were [email protected]#$%^& their affair partner they didn't bother to think about what effect on the kids or what kind of example this would set for their children. How can you be a cheater and then have moral credibility with your kids when you tell them to live an honest, upright life? Do WS think their message will resonate with their kids?


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## river rat

I agree with the posters here who point out that cheaters are selfish, and they do not consider their children or anyone else while indulging their appetites. For those of you concerned about my son, be reassured that he is over 30 and very mature. He played in a rock band for a few years. He's seen it all and knows bull when he sees it. He's also a very good listener, which is why my STBXW has confided in him. I think he'll see it for what it is, but he accepts her account as her version of her actions and motivations. She's his mother, and he will always love her. That's unconditional, as it should be. I love him the same way.


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## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> I agree with the posters here who point out that cheaters are selfish, and they do not consider their children or anyone else while indulging their appetites. For those of you concerned about my son, be reassured that he is over 30 and very mature. He played in a rock band for a few years. He's seen it all and knows bull when he sees it. He's also a very good listener, which is why my STBXW has confided in him. I think he'll see it for what it is, but he accepts her account as her version of her actions and motivations. *She's his mother, and he will always love her. That's unconditional, as it should be. I love him the same *way.


I totally get that - but she is also responsible for the break up of his family..it has to be tough to balance the two visions of his mother...


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## river rat

Happy New Year to all of you. Oh, boy. The hits just keep coming! I spent some time over the holidays with my oldest son. He revealed that he was actually aware of the affair while it was going on. He had just graduated from college and drove over to Richmond to visit some friends. He was out at a bar and saw his mom and her "friend." She was supposed to have been at an educational meeting that weekend. He started to go over to greet her, but realized that the body language indicated that they were not just friends. He wanted to tell me, but could not face being the one to blow up our family. We had a frank discussion of what really happened- all of it. We cried together over our mutual loss. He has a long way to go to heal.


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## GusPolinski

river rat said:


> Happy New Year to all of you. Oh, boy. The hits just keep coming! I spent some time over the holidays with my oldest son. He revealed that he was actually aware of the affair while it was going on. He had just graduated from college and drove over to Richmond to visit some friends. He was out at a bar and saw his mom and her "friend." She was supposed to have been at an educational meeting that weekend. He started to go over to greet her, but realized that the body language indicated that they were not just friends. He wanted to tell me, but could not face being the one to blow up our family. We had a frank discussion of what really happened- all of it. We cried together over our mutual loss. He has a long way to go to heal.


Oh wow. Poor guy.

Did he ever confront her?


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## Pluto2

I understand RR. My eldest DD discovered her father's A's. Getting the truth out is always better for everyone. Can't say my DD has completely healed, but the fact that her father still blames her for outing him makes it worse. She doesn't tolerate any of that blame-shifting. She's very strong.


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## GusPolinski

Pluto2 said:


> I understand RR. My eldest DD discovered her father's A's. Getting the truth out is always better for everyone. Can't say my DD has completely healed, but the fact that *her father still blames her for outing him* makes it worse. She doesn't tolerate any of that blame-shifting. She's very strong.


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## river rat

Gus, no, he never confronted her. This guy worshiped his mom. He dealt with it the same way that I did; he tried to convince himself that he could not have seen what he thought he saw. After all, what can you infer from two people in a restaurant holding hands across the table? Only after I left, and the poop hit the fan, did he finally admit to himself that he was right. His life has been a string of failed relationships, a messy divorce, and a drinking problem (which at this point is under control). I won't blame all his problems on my STBXW, but I have to think that some of the mess in his life is due to the disillusionment with his mother.


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## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> Gus, no, he never confronted her. This guy worshiped his mom. He dealt with it the same way that I did; he tried to convince himself that he could not have seen what he thought he saw. After all, what can you infer from two people in a restaurant holding hands across the table? Only after I left, and the poop hit the fan, did he finally admit to himself that he was right. His life has been a string of failed relationships, a messy divorce, and a drinking problem (which at this point is under control). I won't blame all his problems on my STBXW, but I have to think that some of the mess in his life is due to the disillusionment with his mother.


Wow just wow...has your EX apologized to her children..and of course his mother being a cheater was partly responsible for his relationships with women...when you cheat you cheat on EVERYONE in your family not just your spouse..cheaters are loathe to admit that - while they were out [email protected]#$%^ their lover they were also cheating on their kids...does she know he saw her?


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## Be smart

Every singe day you learn something new.

Your son knew his mother was having an Affair and I feel kinda bad because he didnt tell you. But on other hand he maybe didnt want to hurt you. It was a really tough call.

I can understand him because I told my father about moms Affair and it was Hell. They even tried to blame me for it for not telling him immediatly and for not stoping her Affair. That really hurt.

Talk with your son,dont be so hard on him. I belive he tried to do the best thing.

Did your wife ever apologize for this ?


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## HobbesTheTiger

Has your son ever seen a counsellor? It might help him a lot.


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## Borntohang

She needs to know he saw her!!!! What he's struggling with! More shame!


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## JohnA

Hi River Rat,

The impact of seeing his mom was only part of the problem. Don't forget the impact the adultery had on the marriage and you. All of which impacted on the parenting your son received. (Even if he was just out of college.) 

Thanks for your updates. Please continue to do so. I have found your thread inspiring. Do you know the expression " When God created time, he created plenty of it"? I feel this saying in your thread and I sense the renewal of life. But life to continue needs a purpose. I look forward to reading about a renewal of purpose in your life. 

Also if you hear how your ex is coping please post it. Individuals in her situation have two outcomes in their lives. They can grow as a person and start to heal those they harmed. Or, They can deny and justify locking themselves into an empty life. I sense your wife will be the former. I see her going to her clubs and social outings and slowly surrounding herself with "birds of a feather". In the end her life will be an echo chamber filled with the same self justifiers and enablers as herself.


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## bandit.45

Wow. That sucks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame

One of the things that I react to strongly here is the effect of infidelity on the children. In so many cases, the kids become the background hum in the cheater's life. 

The reality, though, is so very different. The cheaters give so little thought to the damage done to the families. They are wrecking crews.

I feel for both you and your son, rr. You have made some very healthy choices for yourself lately. I hope that having all of this out in the open will help your son.


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## ivory

river rat said:


> Happy New Year to all of you. Oh, boy. The hits just keep coming! I spent some time over the holidays with my oldest son.


Cementing the steel in your veins that is determination for D. 
Betcha really feel it now relative to anything in 2015. 

Hope it helps to know that you are not alone RR. The base of your storyline is all too common and textbook around here.


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## river rat

I'd like to thank you all for your concern and support. To address some of the questions: I have no idea how my STBXW is doing. The Buddha taught that suffering is caused by the things to which we attach ourselves. That's one attachment that I have let go. To my knowledge, my ex does not know that he saw her. That may be part of the healing yet to come. My son saw a counselor a few years ago to deal with anger issues. He quit after a couple of sessions; said it didn't do any good. I'm not sure that he was ready to confront the causes of his anger. At this point I am doing well with reconstructing my life. The distance helps, since I don't really have to deal with prying questions from former friends and acquaintances. I can avoid their sympathy, pity, or judgement, none of which will benefit me. My other three kids seem to be getting along pretty well. Life is definitely a process. There's an old Jimmy Buffet song with the last line, "Some of it's magic, some of it's tragic, but I've had a good live all the way." I'm slowly getting there.


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## nursejackie

Just read this in its entirety- I am so happy that you have found peace RR. You have had a heavy load to carry for far to long.


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## GusPolinski

@river rat, if I may ask, what was it that finally convinced you to address the affair?

And did you ever discover OM's identity?

Glad to hear that you're still doing well.


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## wmn1

Graywolf2 said:


> It sounds like you’re a physician and working long hours to keep the practice going was an evil thing according to your wife. So I’m sure in the divorce settlement she will want only her split of what you would have earned in a 40 hour a week job with weekends off.



this !!!!


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## GusPolinski

Graywolf2 said:


> It sounds like you’re a physician and working long hours to keep the practice going was an evil thing according to your wife. So I’m sure in the divorce settlement she will want only her split of what you would have earned in a 40 hour a week job with weekends off.


I'm sure you won't be at all surprised to find out that you're wrong.

LOL.


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## Truthseeker1

nursejackie said:


> Just read this in its entirety- I am so happy that you have found peace RR. You have had a heavy load to carry for far to long.


Quite heavy - I wish RR a peaceful journey from here on out and that his wife get what she deserves with all the interest that has accrued from her sh!tty behavior over the years. She sounds like a remorseless, selfish woman and I'm being generous.


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## Truthseeker1

GusPolinski said:


> I'm sure you won't be at all surprised to find out that you're wrong.
> 
> LOL.


Correct - she enjoys the benefits of the lifestyle RR provided while indulging in an affair becuase of the hours he had to work to provide that lifestyle - see how that works - heads I win, tails you lose. Really good deal the wretched woman got.


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## river rat

Gus, to answer your questions, I never learned the OM's identity for certain. At this point it really doesn't matter. As to why it took so long for me to confront the issue, that's complex. I guess you could attribute it to a conflict avoid personality. The affair was something that was painful to me. I tried to find peace within myself, but I was unable to do so. The pain and the anger persisted. I finally couldn't take it any more. I've gone back over my thread which started years ago. Other posters predicted the outcome.
Interestingly, I don't view her as an evil person. She's someone who did something selfish and stupid. I allowed her to think that she got away with it. A lot like a driver who hits a pedestrian and panics; they drive away and hope that they will never be found out. Then one day the police show up at their door. I think of such people as weak, but not evil.


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## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> Gus, to answer your questions, I never learned the OM's identity for certain. At this point it really doesn't matter. As to why it took so long for me to confront the issue, that's complex. I guess you could attribute it to a conflict avoid personality. The affair was something that was painful to me. I tried to find peace within myself, but I was unable to do so. The pain and the anger persisted. I finally couldn't take it any more. I've gone back over my thread which started years ago. Other posters predicted the outcome.
> Interestingly, I don't view her as an evil person. She's someone who did something selfish and stupid. I allowed her to think that she got away with it. A lot like a driver who hits a pedestrian and panics; they drive away and hope that they will never be found out. Then one day the police show up at their door. I think of such people as weak, but not evil.


She allowed you to suffer for years and years to the point of mental breakdown - that goes way beyond selfish and stupid - would I call her evil? perhaps not - a bad person - HELL YEAH!!


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## river rat

I felt that I owed you all one last update. My eternal gratitude is for those who have shared your experience and have given me support and advice on my journey. My divorce becomes final next week. I am in the process of constructing my new life, and things are going well. My kids are handling all of this pretty well. My STBXW persuaded one of my sons to arrange a call between us last week ( I had blocked her number, so she couldn't call). She said that she was sorry that she had hurt me. I thanked her for saying that. I suspect that this was something that her therapist had advised. There wasn't anything else to say, so the conversation ended. I spend my days playing music, hanging with new friends, bicycling and paddling. I've been out on a couple of coffee dates. My gut feeling is that women in my age range are looking for long term companionship. I think that I'm just not in a position emotionally to offer that to anyone. But I enjoyed the company. We'll have to see how that all shakes out. I'm looking forward to a very good year. I wish the best for you, also. RR


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## JohnA

I don't think your wife is finished trying to talk with you. I suspect that once again you didn't react as she expected and she had no follow up ready. Part of being sorrow is understanding how your actions impacted and changed others. 

In any event last post? Please keep us updated on your journey. Lot of guys beat their chest and say younger hotter !!! But you found peace and acceptance. Keep posting please.


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## Tron

river rat said:


> She said that she was sorry that she had hurt me. I thanked her for saying that. I suspect that this was something that her therapist had advised. There wasn't anything else to say, so the conversation ended.


Wow. If that is all she had to say, doesn't say much for her level of introspection.

Nice update RR. Keep on keepin' on.


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## Truthseeker1

river rat said:


> I felt that I owed you all one last update. My eternal gratitude is for those who have shared your experience and have given me support and advice on my journey. My divorce becomes final next week. I am in the process of constructing my new life, and things are going well. My kids are handling all of this pretty well. * My STBXW persuaded one of my sons to arrange a call between us last week ( I had blocked her number, so she couldn't call). She said that she was sorry that she had hurt me.* I thanked her for saying that. I suspect that this was something that her therapist had advised. There wasn't anything else to say, so the conversation ended. I spend my days playing music, hanging with new friends, bicycling and paddling. I've been out on a couple of coffee dates. My gut feeling is that women in my age range are looking for long term companionship. I think that I'm just not in a position emotionally to offer that to anyone. But I enjoyed the company. We'll have to see how that all shakes out. I'm looking forward to a very good year. I wish the best for you, also. RR


That's it? She's sorry she drove you to near insanity? Your STBXW continues to be an underwhelming human being. She has about as much remorse as a rattlesnake after they bite somebody. 

Don't rush a new relationship[ but if you can arrange a FWB - then go for it. Be good to yourself - you have spent enough time suffering.

*How do your kids deal with their mother now that her saintly image has been shattered....*

One favor - and I think I speak for a lot of folks on TAM - please continue to update us and let us know how you are doing. Check in even if its ot say thee weather is great and life keeps getting better. 

Good luck!!


----------



## river rat

Hi, guys. I thought of posting this in the after divorce forum, but so many of you helped me during a really tough time in my life, and I felt I should drop in to update you. Life after divorce can be really good, even at my age (mid-60's). I've had a lot of time to contemplate how I got here, and how my own actions contributed. I won't go into all that, but I can now look at my marriage and acknowledge my 50% that caused the relationship to fail. My ex and I never really communicated on an intimate level. This was due to flaws in both of us. When it came time for me to leave, instead of being honest and telling her that I no longer loved her, I set her up with a confrontation about her affair. On some level I knew that she would never be able to come clean. I knew that she would balk and that she would try to blame me. So I used that knowledge to try to give myself the high ground. As I look at it now, that ground wasn't very high. But I had to move on, and that's what I've done. Life is good. I met a lady at a music festival, and we've begun a FWB relationship. She is an instructor at a nearby college. We share the same tastes in music, books, and outdoor activities. She got burned in a bad divorce ten yrs ago, and has no interest in a long term commitment. We live about 2 hours apart, so our time together is somewhat limited. Most importantly, my dog approves of her . So, thanks again to all of you who helped me to get through this. Peace. RR.


----------



## becareful

Hi RR,

I felt that your last talk with your XW should have been done in person. There's only so much you can glean from a phone conversation. How old is she? Is she dating anyone?


----------



## river rat

BC, yes, that convo probably should have been face to face. But I just didn't feel like listening to more lies and rationalizations. At that point I just didn't care any more. Maybe someday, we will be able to sit down and be honest with each other. But I really don't see anything to be gained at this point. To answer your question, she's 5 yrs younger than I am. I don't know if she's seeing anyone. Not my business. When I talk to my kids, the topic of their mom is off limits.


----------



## convert

river rat said:


> Hi, guys. I thought of posting this in the after divorce forum, but so many of you helped me during a really tough time in my life, and I felt I should drop in to update you. Life after divorce can be really good, even at my age (mid-60's). I've had a lot of time to contemplate how I got here, and how my own actions contributed. I won't go into all that, but I can now look at my marriage and acknowledge my 50% that caused the relationship to fail. My ex and I never really communicated on an intimate level. This was due to flaws in both of us.* When it came time for me to leave, instead of being honest and telling her that I no longer loved her, I set her up with a confrontation about her affair.* On some level I knew that she would never be able to come clean. I knew that she would balk and that she would try to blame me. So I used that knowledge to try to give myself the high ground. As I look at it now, that ground wasn't very high. But I had to move on, and that's what I've done. Life is good. I met a lady at a music festival, and we've begun a FWB relationship. She is an instructor at a nearby college. We share the same tastes in music, books, and outdoor activities. She got burned in a bad divorce ten yrs ago, and has no interest in a long term commitment. We live about 2 hours apart, so our time together is somewhat limited. Most importantly, my dog approves of her . So, thanks again to all of you who helped me to get through this. Peace. RR.


Still I wonder how much the "no longer love her" was about the affair she had years ago.
an affair changes how we see people for ever; even if the BS stays it is never the same.


----------



## workindad

Double R 

Great to get an update from you and am happy to see that you are continuing to heal and move forward with your life. 

I wish you all the happiness life has to offer. 

Peace
WD


----------



## JohnA

Good on you, not one word on hotter or younger. Just two people enjoying sharing a moment in time. 

How is your son who knew about the adultery? How is he healing?


----------



## TAMAT

RiverRat,

Thank you for posting as well, I think your feelings and insights are particularly valuable for people who have rugswept affairs. I could really relate to what you said about the way your WW exploded when you finally had your last confrontation with her. 

Long dead affairs can be difficult to process, because they only seem dead.

You spoke of your losing love for your wife as being the cause of the breakup of your marriage. While that is true, it's even more clear that had your WW not had her affair and lost her love for you, then you would still love her. 

I also believe if your WW had come completely clean you never would never have lost your love for her. Perhaps given your WW personality that would have required a superhuman effort on her part. 

I will be facing the same dilemma when my youngest graduates college. 

Tamat


----------



## river rat

Tamat, you're right. Had she come clean, we would have had something to work with. I should have forced the issue long ago, whatever the outcome. But I had to deal with my own feelings of failure as husband which allowed all this crap to happen ( maybe a little codependent?). So I left myself with the option of dealing with my feelings alone. That required emotional detachment. By the end, I was just done.


----------



## GusPolinski

Can't help but wonder about how much time your ex has spent ruminating over just how prophetic her "Thank you for not divorcing me..." would turn out to be in the end.

Oh well... life sucks, get a f*cking helmet.


----------



## alte Dame

GusPolinski said:


> Can't help but wonder about how much time your ex has spent ruminating over just how prophetic her "Thank you for not divorcing me..." would turn out to be in the end.


This is a good point, Gus.

RR - Do you think you would have reached your limit if she hadn't finally broken in this way?


----------



## river rat

Alte Dame, if by "finally broken" you are referring to the way she attacked me verbally when I brought up her affair, the answer is I don't know for sure. In order to approach her about this, I had to be pretty far gone emotionally. Had she thrown herself on my mercy with true remorse, I would have acted compassionately at the time. I may have tried to rebuild our marriage, or I may have found eventually that it really wasn't what I wanted and moved on. Her reaction was what could have been predicted of someone who is extremely proud and cannot admit mistakes. She was like a desperate cornered animal, and lashed out at me. She was just showing me who she really was. And that was a person to whom I no longer wished to be married. Knowing her as well as I do, I think that I could have predicted this. It would have been better to simply have told her that I no longer loved her and that it was time to separate. I've had to question my motives on the approach that I took.


----------



## Tron

river rat said:


> It would have been better to simply have told her that I no longer loved her and that it was time to separate. I've had to question my motives on the approach that I took.


Don't be too hard on yourself RR. The pain of divorce is unavoidable. What makes you think that simply telling her you no longer love her after 30 years would be any less painful?

There is nothing wrong with being honest with her about why this marriage failed. In fact, you did her a favor.

With that knowledge she can choose a new future for herself and do something about it...or not, her choice.


----------



## Vulcan2013

Tron said:


> Don't be too hard on yourself RR. The pain of divorce is unavoidable. What makes you think that simply telling her you no longer love her after 30 years would be any less painful?
> 
> There is nothing wrong with being honest with her about why this marriage failed. In fact, you did her a favor.
> 
> With that knowledge she can choose a new future for herself and do something about it...or not, her choice.


QFT. 

Also, the _reason_ you stopped loving her was this elephant in the room. You could have confronted earlier and better, sure. But the primary responsibility is on the wayward to bring healing. She loved her image more than you or your healing. I've been there; pride is the deadliest of sins.


----------



## river rat

JohnA, almost missed your question. My kids are doing the best they can under the circumstances. They are all adults, and better equipped than if they were younger. The son who saw his mom with the OM is struggling. He is good with me. We talk a lot. But his own marriage is in the process of breaking up.


----------



## Graywolf2

river rat said:


> Gus, to answer your questions, I never learned the OM's identity for certain.


If your son saw them doesn't that narrow it down? Was there more than one OM?


----------



## larry.gray

I'll parrot something you said back to you.



river rat said:


> Would I reconsider? No. I've come to realize that the process of detaching myself from the pain destroyed my love for her. And I don't think there'd be any point in trying to rebuild a life with someone that you don't love and can never trust.


I'll postulate you were spot on back then. Had she worked with you, love may have come back. But attacking you put a stake through any chance.

This all goes back to the infidelitiy and the continued lies.


----------



## larry.gray

I nominate this thread for a stickie.


----------



## river rat

GrayWolf, when my son saw them together, he did not recognize the man. My XW had gone back to college for another degree. I assume that it was someone that she met in that setting. Thankfully, that's just one of many things that I no longer obsess about.


----------



## lordmayhem

larry.gray said:


> I nominate this thread for a stickie.


Indeed. Threads like this usually end up the usual way: posters who think that they have successfully rug swept an affair usually end up coming back years later to report that the rugsweep didn't work. All rugsweeping ever does is just delaying the inevitable, as the resentment/feelings just build up because there was never any closure and the WS never even tried to earn a shot at R.


----------



## JohnA

Hi River rat, 

How is your son doing? I've been reading about BC, betrayed children, on another forum. The fallout on their life has been immense. 
Just as you need to heal, so does your son, and that healing does not happening until the truth is shared.


----------



## river rat

Good morning. I caught this on FB: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqm-XEqpayc. If the Youtube link doesn't work, look it up on FB. It's from Sheryl Sandberg's commencement address at Berkley. I's her account of losing her husband to sudden cardiac death, but it really resonated with me as to my feelings on discovering my XW's affair. I think the personalization, pervasiveness, and permanence are feelings that we all go through with any tragedy in our lives. Wish somebody had said this to me when I was 21.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

river rat said:


> Which brings me to today, and the topic of my thread. A week ago, we were having a conversation, and she remarked, " I want to thank you for not leaving me." I knew at that point, that if I wanted to get the full truth, that was the moment. But I made a decision. I am happy with my life. I have moved past all the pain and confusion of those years. The only thing to be gained, would be to allow her to assuage her guilt. I chose to let that moment pass.


Wow. One of the saddest things I've ever read. 35 years married. Three kids is it? Any grandkids? And in a tender moment she said, and I paraphrase, "we made it, and I owe it all to you. Thank you for sticking with me and not leaving me".

Then you left her. 

How many lives ruined? Awful. I can't comment on how you handle something like that. You were very much in your right to leave her. What I don't understand is...

- All of the hi-fiving and "you go boy"'s. It's a sad story. Treat it that way.

- He dumps his 60 something wife and goes on spring break.

Looks midlife crisis-ish to me.

.


river rat said:


> ...but I can now look at my marriage and acknowledge my 50% that caused the relationship to fail. My ex and I never really communicated on an intimate level. This was due to flaws in both of us. When it came time for me to leave, instead of being honest and telling her that I no longer loved her, I set her up with a confrontation about her affair. On some level I knew that she would never be able to come clean. I knew that she would balk and that she would try to blame me. So I used that knowledge to try to give myself the high ground. As I look at it now, that ground wasn't very high. But I had to move on, and that's what I've done. *Life is good. I met a lady at a music festival, and we've begun a FWB relationship.* She is an instructor at a nearby college. We share the same tastes in music, books, and outdoor activities. She got burned in a bad divorce ten yrs ago, and has no interest in a long term commitment. We live about 2 hours apart, so our time together is somewhat limited. Most importantly, my dog approves of her . So, thanks again to all of you who helped me to get through this. Peace. RR.



Just a nasty business all around. I'm glad you are so happy with this story. Kind of makes me want to puke.


----------



## larry.gray

MachoMcCoy said:


> Wow. One of the saddest things I've ever read. 35 years married. Three kids is it? Any grandkids? And in a tender moment she said, and I paraphrase, "we made it, and I owe it all to you. Thank you for sticking with me and not leaving me".
> 
> Then you left her.
> 
> How many lives ruined? Awful. I can't comment on how you handle something like that. You were very much in your right to leave her. What I don't understand is...
> 
> - All of the hi-fiving and "you go boy"'s. It's a sad story. Treat it that way.
> 
> - He dumps his 60 something wife and goes on spring break.


.

He sacrificed his happiness, his sanity and his security to stay for the kids. At any time she could have done what was needed and he could have worked through this. Instead she stayed stubborn and refused to do what was needed.

No he's free of that.



MachoMcCoy said:


> Looks midlife crisis-ish to me


An MLC is where someone has doubts about how their life is turning out. RR doesn't have _doubts_ - he was crapped on big time.


----------



## Mr The Other

MachoMcCoy said:


> Wow. One of the saddest things I've ever read. 35 years married. Three kids is it? Any grandkids? And in a tender moment she said, and I paraphrase, "we made it, and I owe it all to you. Thank you for sticking with me and not leaving me".
> 
> Then you left her.
> 
> How many lives ruined? Awful. I can't comment on how you handle something like that. You were very much in your right to leave her. What I don't understand is...
> 
> - All of the hi-fiving and "you go boy"'s. It's a sad story. Treat it that way.
> 
> - He dumps his 60 something wife and goes on spring break.
> 
> Looks midlife crisis-ish to me.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> Just a nasty business all around. I'm glad you are so happy with this story. Kind of makes me want to puke.


Again, you would rather blame all men rather than accept personal responsibility for your marriage failing.


----------



## TaDor

Basically, she never accepted her own faults of the affair. Rug swept, etc.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

I was just pontificating. I just don't see this as the big success you all do. A lot of lives were ruined. But as long as the OP is out partying and getting pu$$y, all is good, huh? 

And I'm not blaming all men. (Where the fuc# did THAT come from?). Just this one. He was bored in his marriage and used a 13 year old affair as an excuse to go on a bender.

Yes, this guy was wronged 13 years ago and had every right to leave her because of that. But he didn't. He admitted he left because he was bored. He took the easy road and ruined a bunch of lives.

Success story? Not even CLOSE!! 

But as long as this disaster happened anyhow, party on dude!


----------



## Be smart

MachoMcCoy said:


> I was just pontificating. I just don't see this as the big success you all do. A lot of lives were ruined. But as long as the OP is out partying and getting pu$$y, all is good, huh?
> 
> And I'm not blaming all men. (Where the fuc# did THAT come from?). Just this one. He was bored in his marriage and used a 13 year old affair as an excuse to go on a bender.
> 
> Yes, this guy was wronged 13 years ago and had every right to leave her because of that. But he didn't. He admitted he left because he was bored. He took the easy road and ruined a bunch of lives.
> 
> Success story? Not even CLOSE!!
> 
> But as long as this disaster happened anyhow, party on dude!


You get this wrong. He did not ruin some lives like you said,his wife did. Dont forget she cheated and she never come clean about her Affair. She never thought about her Family and her actions. 

Put yourself in his position or his son. Now imagine living like that for so many years. It is hell,right.


----------



## farsidejunky

MachoMcCoy said:


> I was just pontificating. I just don't see this as the big success you all do. A lot of lives were ruined. But as long as the OP is out partying and getting pu$$y, all is good, huh?
> 
> And I'm not blaming all men. (Where the fuc# did THAT come from?). Just this one. He was bored in his marriage and used a 13 year old affair as an excuse to go on a bender.
> 
> Yes, this guy was wronged 13 years ago and had every right to leave her because of that. But he didn't. He admitted he left because he was bored. He took the easy road and ruined a bunch of lives.
> 
> Success story? Not even CLOSE!!
> 
> But as long as this disaster happened anyhow, party on dude!


Calling him bored is a complete mischaracterization. It ignores everything that he has shared in here about the pain that to some degree he is still going through due to his ex-wife's infidelity.


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## TAMAT

My read of what Riverrat did is as follows.

-He wasted some of the best years of his life trying to please a woman who was not in love with him.

-He tried to please that woman so that he could improve and maintain his familys intactness and health.

-His wife was lying to him continuously for decades and he knew it intuitively.

-He is now in his 60's and trying to salvage what enjoyment he can from his remaining years, rather than staying with a woman who will never love him.

Keep in mind that Riverrat was a doctor and likely pulled in good money, this reward came at a great price to him as he had to shoulder responsibilities most of us do not understand. He had no time to date or watch over his wife is my guess. 

This is no celebration but more of an improvement in his condition, he has not been restored to a college student on spring break.

Tamat


----------



## GusPolinski

MachoMcCoy said:


> I was just pontificating. I just don't see this as the big success you all do. A lot of lives were ruined. But as long as the OP is out partying and getting pu$$y, all is good, huh?
> 
> And I'm not blaming all men. (Where the fuc# did THAT come from?). Just this one. He was bored in his marriage and used a 13 year old affair as an excuse to go on a bender.
> 
> Yes, this guy was wronged 13 years ago and had every right to leave her because of that. But he didn't. He admitted he left because he was bored. He took the easy road and ruined a bunch of lives.
> 
> Success story? Not even CLOSE!!
> 
> But as long as this disaster happened anyhow, party on dude!


Well... at least you're entertaining.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MachoMcCoy

TAMAT said:


> My read of what Riverrat did is as follows.
> 
> -He wasted some of the best years of his life trying to please a woman who was not in love with him. *And he succeeded, only to throw her to the curb once she finally felt close enough to confide in him*
> 
> -He tried to please that woman so that he could improve and maintain his familys intactness and health. *Again, success, just before he threw the old bittty to the curb*
> 
> -His wife was lying to him continuously for decades and he knew it intuitively. *And AMAZINGLY, they were both good with that until you all convinced him he was wrong*
> 
> -He is now in his 60's and trying to salvage what enjoyment he can from his remaining years, rather than staying with a woman who will never love him. *Odd. I see a woman who grew to love him very much. Right before our new playboy friend hit the circuit*
> 
> Keep in mind that Riverrat was a doctor and likely pulled in good money, this reward came at a great price to him as he had to shoulder responsibilities most of us do not understand. He had no time to date or watch over his wife is my guess. *His choice*
> 
> This is no celebration but more of an improvement in his condition *You people are gloating and hi-fiving each other virtually*, he has not been restored to a college student on spring break. *I know, right? It's BETTER. Now he's got the money, the title, the car, and the experience. College kids on spring break WISH they were him*


----------



## convert

My read of what Riverrat did is as follows.

-He wasted some of the best years of his life trying to please a woman who was not in love with him. *And he succeeded, only to throw her to the curb once she finally felt close enough to confide in him* he succeeded only because she loved that he rug sweeped. She never did confide in him about the affair. he still does not even know the identity of the OM

-He tried to please that woman so that he could improve and maintain his familys intactness and health. *Again, success, just before he threw the old bittty to the curb* Again success in her mind because she did not have to confide to him about the affair and enjoyed the rug sweeping on her part.

-His wife was lying to him continuously for decades and he knew it intuitively. *And AMAZINGLY, they were both good with that until you all convinced him he was wrong* No he convinced himself and she may have been good with it but not him. being suicidal 13 years ago was a good indication that he was never going to be good with it 

-He is now in his 60's and trying to salvage what enjoyment he can from his remaining years, rather than staying with a woman who will never love him. Odd. *I see a woman who grew to love him very much. Right before our new playboy friend hit the circuit* If she really loved him she would have came clean about the affair to allow him to heal properly. she had the chance

Keep in mind that Riverrat was a doctor and likely pulled in good money, this reward came at a great price to him as he had to shoulder responsibilities most of us do not understand. He had no time to date or watch over his wife is my guess. *His choice* providing for the family with a good job is always a good choice and it was her choice to have an affair while he worked. The both had choices, her was not a good one.

This is no celebration but more of an improvement in his condition *You people are gloating and hi-fiving each other virtually, he has not been restored to a college student on spring break. I know, right? It's BETTER. Now he's got the money, the title, the car, and the experience. College kids on spring break WISH they were him*

he has been restored as a person with self worth and just because you are in your 60's does not mean you can not date and have fun


----------



## convert

MachoMcCoy said:


> I was just pontificating. I just don't see this as the big success you all do. A lot of lives were ruined. But as long as the OP is out partying and getting pu$$y, all is good, huh?
> 
> And I'm not blaming all men. (Where the fuc# did THAT come from?). Just this one. *He was bored in his marriage* and used a 13 year old affair as an excuse to go on a bender.
> 
> Yes, this guy was wronged 13 years ago and had every right to leave her because of that. But he didn't. He admitted he left because he was bored. He took the easy road and ruined a bunch of lives.
> 
> Success story? Not even CLOSE!!
> 
> But as long as this disaster happened anyhow, party on dude!


he did not say he was bored in his marriage
(Where the fuc# did THAT come from?)

he said he fell out of love with his wife.
I suspect it started 13 years ago


----------



## convert

The experts say it takes 2 to 5 years to recover from infidelity with BOTH SPOUSE working on it.

that did not happen here.

rug sweeping is never a proper form of recovery from infidelity.


----------



## convert

river rat said:


> Hi, guys. I thought of posting this in the after divorce forum, but so many of you helped me during a really tough time in my life, and I felt I should drop in to update you. Life after divorce can be really good, even at my age (mid-60's). I've had a lot of time to contemplate how I got here, and how my own actions contributed. I won't go into all that, but I can now look at my marriage and acknowledge my 50% that caused the relationship to fail. My ex and I never really communicated on an intimate level. This was due to flaws in both of us. When it came time for me to leave, * instead of being honest and telling her that I no longer loved her,* I set her up with a confrontation about her affair. On some level I knew that she would never be able to come clean. I knew that she would balk and that she would try to blame me. So I used that knowledge to try to give myself the high ground. *As I look at it now, that ground wasn't very high.* But I had to move on, and that's what I've done. Life is good. I met a lady at a music festival, and we've begun a FWB relationship. She is an instructor at a nearby college. We share the same tastes in music, books, and outdoor activities. She got burned in a bad divorce ten yrs ago, and has no interest in a long term commitment. We live about 2 hours apart, so our time together is somewhat limited. Most importantly, my dog approves of her . So, thanks again to all of you who helped me to get through this. Peace. RR.


well the high ground may have not been very high, IT WAS STILL HIGHER


----------



## MachoMcCoy

convert said:


> well the high ground may have not been very high, IT WAS STILL HIGHER


And Russian troops had the moral high ground when they raped Berlin. The women, not the city. Blessed by their leader. Stalin himself said "do it".

Not much higher than Hitler's ground, but higher. You go Josef. You may have killed 10 million to Hitler's 7, but you did it for the good of the republic, right? Hitler did it out of hate.

Not much higher, but higher still.


----------



## Truthseeker1

GusPolinski said:


> Well... at least you're entertaining.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess that is one way to look at those posts...>


----------



## GusPolinski

MachoMcCoy said:


> And Russian troops had the moral high ground when they raped Berlin. The women, not the city. Blessed by their leader. Stalin himself said "do it".
> 
> Not much higher than Hitler's ground, but higher. You go Josef. You may have killed 10 million to Hitler's 7, but you did it for the good of the republic, right? Hitler did it out of hate.
> 
> Not much higher, but higher still.


----------



## Row Jimmy

Geez Macho.... I like you better as the WAW Doom and Gloom Spokesperson. 

People are allowed to end relationships that no longer work for them. 

RR simply made his choice. 

He decided to suck it up when it happened despite what it cost him and later he decided it was time for truth and she didn't give it to him but chose to attack instead. Even after being served she only TT'd him. I'd say she mistakenly thought he'd back down like he always did the entire marriage and she was very wrong this time. 

Once the kids are out of the house or out of college there is a lot more room left for a man or woman to decide NOT to take crap or abuse in your marriage any longer and focus on your own happiness. Many folks out there stay together for the kids. Focusing on herself was what Mrs Rat did best and what she was doing when the Doc was off working for a living and giving her the life and money she enjoys.

She had to finally pay the toll for lying, for abusing and for cheating on her husband. 

Not all relationships get to last forever. It takes commitment and love and honor. Mrs. Rat fell short on both and Mr Rat decided to F it and to enjoy the rest of his life without a person who treated him that way.


----------



## alte Dame

I think that sometimes the love just dies. The death can be brought on or sped along by a betrayal like the one RR experienced from his ex.

In his case, everything came together at the same time so that he could make the decision that he made: She remained resistant and stubborn; he was out of love; the kids were grown.

I know that I can make decisions, big and small, that are founded on strong principle & this belief in principle propels me to act. It can help me justify my action, even if I will be hurting someone else, especially if that someone else is a prime bad actor in the situation.

Once I get some distance from the decision, though, my empathy can grow and, even though I think I made the right choice, I feel more compassion for the other people affected by my decision.

I think RR thinks he ultimately made the right choice, but regrets some of his behavior in getting there.


----------



## larry.gray

MachoMcCoy said:


> And Russian troops had the moral high ground when they raped Berlin. The women, not the city. Blessed by their leader. Stalin himself said "do it".
> 
> Not much higher than Hitler's ground, but higher. You go Josef. You may have killed 10 million to Hitler's 7, but you did it for the good of the republic, right? Hitler did it out of hate.
> 
> Not much higher, but higher still.


Wow, I haven't seen someone break Godwin's Law in a while. Congratulations, you just did.

And PS: I reject you premise - Rape is never OK, and I suspect if I didn't mention that you'd use that straw man too.


----------



## river rat

Macho, I guess everybody has their own perspective. Let me share mine with you. Spring break? Hardly. When I took off cross country I felt that I was running for my life to escape a toxic and painful relationship. I holed up in a cabin in Idaho for several weeks while I considered the question of whether my life was worth living, and how I'd go about that. No girls, no party, no fun, no sun. Although I did get puking drunk once. There ended the similarity to spring break. Playboy? I drive a 10 year old sedan. All of my possessions fit into it. I live in a 3 room house which was originally built as a fishing camp. I spend my days in meditation, reading, exercise, walking my dog, and playing my guitar. My best friend is my dog. My social contacts are the regulars at the local diner and the folks that I get together with on Friday evenings to jam. My wife got the big house. We split the retirement funds down the middle. I have enough to last me until I'm 80 if I'm careful, at which time my financial adviser has joked that it will be time for me to move on. I have one lady friend whose company I value. We see each other infrequently due to the distance between us. I don't qualify for the jet set even by local standards. But understand this. My current lifestyle has given me greater peace than anything that I experienced during my marriage. I live as I do because I choose to do so.


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## wmn1

river rat said:


> My middle son called me today, very upset with his mom, me, and the whole situation. My STBXW had admitted to him that she had an affair, but basically blamed it on me. She told him that I was working so many hours and gone so much that she felt abandoned. ( There is a grain of truth in that part. One of our doctors retired and another was out on extended maternity leave, with just two of us left to carry the burden. It was a lot like my internship- working 12 hour days and on call every other night. That went on four about 6 months). She told him that the affair was something that she needed to do for herself. I called total BS on that. I explained to him that this little thing that "she did for herself" damn near killed me and totally destroyed our family. He had questions, and I answered whatever he asked. He closed with, "Thanks for talking to me, Dad. I love you." So I guess she can tell herself (and anybody who'll listen) whatever it takes for her to get through the day. But that just confirms for me that I've made the right decision. I have to go back to Va. to clean up some loose financial ends. It will be a good opportunity to see my kids. I may be gone for awhile, so I'd like to thank you all once again for your support and advice.


your post 206 still bugs me to this day. "Something she had to do for herself ?" WTF !!!! My wife and I barely knew each other for 6 years with opposite shifts and made the most of the little time we had together and guess what ? No cheating. Why didn't she make a principled stand and reject the $$$$ you were making. Her rationale makes me sick


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## wmn1

Only MachoMan would attack RR like this. I throw the BS flag. River Rat did what he needed to do and he has my full support. RR, ignore the criticism from macho


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## wmn1

river rat said:


> Macho, I guess everybody has their own perspective. Let me share mine with you. Spring break? Hardly.  When I took off cross country I felt that I was running for my life to escape a toxic and painful relationship. I holed up in a cabin in Idaho for several weeks while I considered the question of whether my life was worth living, and how I'd go about that. No girls, no party, no fun, no sun. Although I did get puking drunk once. There ended the similarity to spring break. Playboy? I drive a 10 year old sedan. All of my possessions fit into it. I live in a 3 room house which was originally built as a fishing camp. I spend my days in meditation, reading, exercise, walking my dog, and playing my guitar. My best friend is my dog. My social contacts are the regulars at the local diner and the folks that I get together with on Friday evenings to jam. My wife got the big house. We split the retirement funds down the middle. I have enough to last me until I'm 80 if I'm careful, at which time my financial adviser has joked that it will be time for me to move on. I have one lady friend whose company I value. We see each other infrequently due to the distance between us. I don't qualify for the jet set even by local standards. But understand this. My current lifestyle has given me greater peace than anything that I experienced during my marriage. I live as I do because I choose to do so.


you are in Idaho. I love Idaho. What's better than that ??? BTW, if she got the big house, then how did everything end up 50/50 ? Does she try to contact you or show guilt ?


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## river rat

wmn1, thanks for the support, but Macho really didn't offend me. I'm sure there are others who have a perspective different from my own. To answer your questions, why didn't she make a principled stand? I'm not sure. Why does anyone cheat? We all have our own demons. I was in Idaho last fall, but the cabin I was renting didn't have heat other than a fireplace. So when it started getting cold, I headed south to Louisiana. In the settlement she got the house, but I got a cabin on a river. I have some acreage with that. I hope to leave it to my kids, but if I do, indeed, outlive my retirement funds, I'll sell it. For now, it's all good.


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## wmn1

river rat said:


> wmn1, thanks for the support, but Macho really didn't offend me. I'm sure there are others who have a perspective different from my own. To answer your questions, why didn't she make a principled stand? I'm not sure. Why does anyone cheat? We all have our own demons. I was in Idaho last fall, but the cabin I was renting didn't have heat other than a fireplace. So when it started getting cold, I headed south to Louisiana. In the settlement she got the house, but I got a cabin on a river. I have some acreage with that. I hope to leave it to my kids, but if I do, indeed, outlive my retirement funds, I'll sell it. For now, it's all good.


Hey, as long as you are content, that's what counts. Keep up the fight, RR


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## Truthseeker1

wmn1 said:


> Only MachoMan would attack RR like this. I throw the BS flag. River Rat did what he needed to do and he has my full support. RR, ignore the criticism from macho


RR didn't owe his ex wife sh!t - she took enough for herself for 30 years....whatever misery she is in - if that's even possible for her - she deserves - at least 30 years worth...


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## MachoMcCoy

I truly hope you can all recover from the pain caused by infidelity some day. It will help your perspective a lot. Sure, RR is "happy" now. It's just unfortunate that nobody is thinking of the carnage it all left behind. Did he have a right to leave? Sure. But to do it right at a time that his wife felt comfortable enough to confide in him? When she is finally connecting with him again? 

This story is a sad, sad mess. And all of you burn victims are out there hi-fiveing each other.


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## wmn1

MachoMcCoy said:


> I truly hope you can all recover from the pain caused by infidelity some day. It will help your perspective a lot. Sure, RR is "happy" now. It's just unfortunate that nobody is thinking of the carnage it all left behind. Did he have a right to leave? Sure. But to do it right at a time that his wife felt comfortable enough to confide in him? When she is finally connecting with him again?
> 
> This story is a sad, sad mess. And all of you burn victims are out there hi-fiveing each other.


You mean the carnage SHE left behind ?

And if they were really connecting so well, then why did she pull away from him, blow up at him and ignore him for two weeks afterwards ? All he wanted was the truth finally and he deserved it, not a $hit sandwich which he got. How about her inability to finally open up to him about it now that he was ready to hear it and forgive ? She burned this bridge down. RR finally had enough and weighed his options and God bless him for having the strength to finally stand up for himself. 

Macho, you sound like a student at JLD University right now. Your blaming the others on this board or RR is not only wrong, it's irrational


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## GusPolinski

MachoMcCoy said:


> I truly hope you can all recover from the pain caused by infidelity some day. It will help your perspective a lot. Sure, RR is "happy" now. It's just unfortunate that nobody is thinking of the carnage it all left behind. Did he have a right to leave? Sure. *But to do it right at a time that his wife felt comfortable enough to confide in him? When she is finally connecting with him again?*
> 
> This story is a sad, sad mess. And all of you burn victims are out there hi-fiveing each other.


I must have missed all that. All I seem to recall are the rantings of a shameless, entitled slore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1

GusPolinski said:


> I must have missed all that. All I seem to recall are the rantings of a shameless, entitled slore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_













I guess attacking RR and calling him names is now confiding...


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## Truthseeker1

wmn1 said:


> You mean the carnage SHE left behind ?
> 
> And if they were really connecting so well, then why did she pull away from him, blow up at him and ignore him for two weeks afterwards ? All he wanted was the truth finally and he deserved it, not a $hit sandwich which he got. How about her inability to finally open up to him about it now that he was ready to hear it and forgive ? She burned this bridge down. RR finally had enough and weighed his options and God bless him for having the strength to finally stand up for himself.
> 
> Macho, you sound like a student at JLD University right now. Your blaming the others on this board or RR is not only wrong, it's irrational



RR's XW showing zero concern for his mental health was all anyone needs to know..she is about one person - herself...she thought she got away with it...WRONG...RR I hope you are having the time of your life...take every moment and squeeze the sweetness out of it..your wife robbed you of enough years,..don't give her one more second...


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## river rat

Macho, I've been trying to avoid ripping this scar open, but maybe my doing so will help you to understand why I waited so long to leave, which seems to be your major sticking point. I've always been a hyper-responsible person. I was the one who took the responsibility when anything went wrong on my watch. That can be pathological if taken to the extreme. I wasn't young when this crap went down. We had been married 25 yrs; I was in my mid-50's. Being who I was, I blamed myself for her affair. I became depressed; decided that the only way to atone for my failure was suicide. I didn't want my kids to know, so I did some research and designed my own "accidental death". I was keeping a journal at this time. I had the method and the time planned out. I must have behaved strangely during this time. My XW picked up on this and thought that I was having an affair! She searched and found my journal. This was the crossroads. She could have admitted what she had done and tried to help me heal and to repair our relationship. Not. She gaslighted me, and very thoroughly. She had me believing that I was delusional. So I just shut up and tried to go on with life believing that I had had some sort of psychotic episode. That kind of self doubt ripped me up emotionally. This went on for a few years.


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## river rat

Somewhere around year six, I decided to seek help. Took awhile for me to get around to telling my therapist why I was actually there. I asked him if it was possible that I hallucinated the episode in the closet. He looked at me and asked, "Have you ever hallucinated before? Have you hallucinated since? Are you hallucinating now?" No, no, and no. "Then you weren't hallucinating then." The lightbulb exploded in my head. I continued to see the therapist. During that time I asked my XW to go with me. I thought that it would give her a safe environment to deal with our problem. She always refused. I believe that she was terrified of admitting what she had done. And so, I set about saving myself by emotionally detaching from her. We became more like business partners whose relationship existed only to maintain our lifestyle. During this time her dad died and her mother developed dementia. She became angry, and a lot of that anger was directed at me. I tried to get her to see a family therapist. She always refused. And I continued drifting away. If you peruse my thread, you'll see the decay of my marriage. Finally, I decided that I couldn't do it any more. Things had to change. So, I tried to gently but insistently get her to address the affair. Her response was to attack me and then withdraw. She admitted what she had done only after being served with divorce papers. By then I had made my decision.


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## river rat

Oh, as to the carnage. At least one of my kids already knew. I think they were not surprised when I left. The fallout for my XW will simply be adjusting to a less expansive lifestyle, and having to admit her own failures. Do I wish that I had handled this differently? Well, I'll just say that I wouldn't recommend my path for anyone else to follow. Nuff said.


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## 2asdf2

river rat said:


> Macho, I've been trying to avoid ripping this scar open, but maybe my doing so will help you to understand why I waited so long to leave, which seems to be your major sticking point. I've always been a hyper-responsible person. I was the one who took the responsibility when anything went wrong on my watch. That can be pathological if taken to the extreme. I wasn't young when this crap went down. We had been married 25 yrs; I was in my mid-50's. Being who I was, I blamed myself for her affair. I became depressed; decided that the only way to atone for my failure was suicide. I didn't want my kids to know, so I did some research and designed my own "accidental death". I was keeping a journal at this time. I had the method and the time planned out. I must have behaved strangely during this time. My XW picked up on this and thought that I was having an affair! She searched and found my journal. This was the crossroads. She could have admitted what she had done and tried to help me heal and to repair our relationship. Not. *She gaslighted me, and very thoroughly.* She had me believing that I was delusional. So I just shut up and tried to go on with life believing that I had had some sort of psychotic episode. That kind of self doubt ripped me up emotionally. This went on for a few years.


Mine pulled the same stunt after 47 years of marriage. She did not convince me, but totally hoodwinked our clinical psychologist who recommended anti-psychotics for me.

Four years hence, she still pretends nothing happened and it was only a kiss. In spite of acknowledging a one-night-stand that I believe was part of a ffmm foursome.

So glad you were able to see through all the deceit and machinations and develop some inner peace.


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## MachoMcCoy

GusPolinski said:


> I must have missed all that. All I seem to recall are the rantings of a shameless, entitled slore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess you would. You all would. But not going through life with a "Kill the cheating ***** and destroy all that is dear to her, even if some of those are dear to you as well" attitude, I can see things differently. 



river rat said:


> ...and she remarked, " I want to thank you for not leaving me."



That touched me as a woman who, in old age, felt that she was getting content in her life. Content with her marriage. Content with her husband. She was at peace with herself. Her family was happy. Her friends were happy. 

So, RR did what he had to do. Fine. It's the hi-fiving and "you got that cheating wh0re" that makes me believe you all have no empathy for anyone. She was wrong 13 years ago, and it truly IS her fault that so many lives were destroyed. 

So sad for so many people all around. 

Just stop celebrating it. It's unseemly.


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## Graywolf2

river rat said:


> I became depressed; decided that the only way to atone for my failure was suicide. I must have behaved strangely during this time. My XW picked up on this and thought that I was having an affair! She searched and found my journal.
> 
> This was the crossroads. She could have admitted what she had done and tried to help me heal and to repair our relationship. Not. She gas lighted me, and very thoroughly. *She had me believing that I was delusional. So I just shut up and tried to go on with life believing that I had had some sort of psychotic episode. That kind of self doubt ripped me up emotionally. *This went on for a few years.
> 
> Took awhile for me to get around to telling my therapist why I was actually there. I asked him if it was possible that I hallucinated the episode in the closet.


Her affair was nothing compared to this. When she called you to say she was sorry, did she include this in what she was sorry for? Do your kids know this part? 

You’re doing the right thing and are a better man than me. I’m afraid that I would let this eat me up.




river rat said:


> I continued to see the *therapist*. During that time I asked my XW to go with me. I thought that it would give her a safe environment to deal with our problem. She always refused.
> 
> My STBXW persuaded one of my sons to arrange a call between us last week ( I had blocked her number, so she couldn't call). She said that she was sorry that she had hurt me. I thanked her for saying that. I suspect that this was something that her *therapist *had advised. There wasn't anything else to say, so the conversation ended.


You helped your ex with her therapy after she refused to help you with yours. You are a great guy. Have a happy life.


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## 2asdf2

MMcC:

If you are the voice of reason, please do not tar everyone here with the same brush.


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## Truthseeker1

@river rat - you don't owe anyone an explanation - your thread says it all...as to our "celebrating" - whatever - if seeing a decent man in pain set free is "celebrating" then pass me a party hat...


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## Palodyne

Look, when a WS is Blameshifting, Gaslighting. Lying, and refusing to help the BS heal, and won't even admit what they did. Especially over a long period of time. They are not going to get any sympathy here, and they shouldn't. River Rat gave his WS many chances over the years to come clean and work on the marriage. She was not interested. So sure she was comfortable, and she was glad River Rat didn't divorce her, because she was cake eating and loved it.

She never said or did anything earn any sympathy. She never came clean and begged River Rat to work on it with her. Even when she did, after divorce was filed, admit it to the kids, she said she did it because it was something she needed. No remorse, or any sympathy for River Rat, even after all these years. 

So when a BS finally gets free of someone this toxic to there life and happiness. Everyone is happy for him. Some may harbor anger over their own circumstances, but most of us are not happy because of what the BS did to the WS, we are happy for what the BS finally did for themselves.


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## Truthseeker1

Palodyne said:


> Look, when a WS is Blameshifting, Gaslighting. Lying, and refusing to help the BS heal, and won't even admit what they did. Especially over a long period of time. They are not going to get any sympathy here, and they shouldn't. River Rat gave his WS many chances over the years to come clean and work on the marriage. She was not interested. So sure she was comfortable, and she was glad River Rat didn't divorce her, because she was cake eating and loved it.
> 
> She never said or did anything earn any sympathy. She never came clean and begged River Rat to work on it with her. Even when she did, after divorce was filed, admit it to the kids, she said she did it because it was something she needed. No remorse, or any sympathy for River Rat, even after all these years.
> 
> So when a BS finally gets free of someone this toxic to there life and happiness. Everyone is happy for him. Some may harbor anger over their own circumstances, but most of us are not happy because of what the BS did to the WS, we are happy for what the BS finally did for themselves.


QFT


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## Truthseeker1

@Palodyne I would add that EVEN if she was remoresful and came clean she is not entitled to R - no WS is....RR did nothing wrong leaving her - not a thing...


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## TAMAT

If she came clean then I believe RR could forgive her. Forgive her and then divorce or not, it's not possible for most people to forgive what hasn't even been confessed.

The OM can never be forgiven, and just that fact that RR never knew who the OM was by itself is cause for divorce. RR walks the earth not knowing if the OM was an old friend of his or the pastor at his church or any schmoo in a crowd or even someone his WW has kept on as a friend.

Tamat


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## Truthseeker1

TAMAT said:


> If she came clean then I believe RR could forgive her. Forgive her and then divorce or not, it's not possible for most people to forgive what hasn't even been confessed.
> 
> The OM can never be forgiven, and just that fact that RR never knew who the OM was by itself is cause for divorce. RR walks the earth not knowing if the OM was an old friend of his or the pastor at his church or any schmoo in a crowd or even someone his WW has kept on as a friend.
> 
> Tamat


That is what is particularly disgusting about this case is the WW did not one [email protected]#$%^& thing to help her BH heal..nothing...she has ice water in those veins...


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## GusPolinski

river rat said:


> Macho, I've been trying to avoid ripping this scar open, but maybe my doing so will help you to understand why I waited so long to leave, which seems to be your major sticking point. I've always been a hyper-responsible person. I was the one who took the responsibility when anything went wrong on my watch. That can be pathological if taken to the extreme. I wasn't young when this crap went down. We had been married 25 yrs; I was in my mid-50's. Being who I was, I blamed myself for her affair. I became depressed; decided that the only way to atone for my failure was suicide. I didn't want my kids to know, so I did some research and designed my own "accidental death". I was keeping a journal at this time. I had the method and the time planned out. I must have behaved strangely during this time. My XW picked up on this and thought that I was having an affair! She searched and found my journal. This was the crossroads. She could have admitted what she had done and tried to help me heal and to repair our relationship. Not. She gaslighted me, and very thoroughly. She had me believing that I was delusional. So I just shut up and tried to go on with life believing that I had had some sort of psychotic episode. That kind of self doubt ripped me up emotionally. This went on for a few years.


Well, boy howdy! She sure sounds swell, mister!

LOL... Macho is the worst at reading waywards.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

MachoMcCoy said:


> I guess you would. You all would. But not going through life with *a "Kill the cheating ***** and destroy all that is dear to her, even if some of those are dear to you as well" attitude*, I can see things differently.


Show me where you see that.

And, while you're at it, I'll ask again -- show me where you see this...



> But to do it right at a time that his wife felt comfortable enough to confide in him? When she is finally connecting with him again?





MachoMcCoy said:


> That touched me as a woman who, in old age, felt that she was getting content in her life. Content with her marriage. Content with her husband. She was at peace with herself. Her family was happy. Her friends were happy.
> 
> So, RR did what he had to do. Fine. It's the hi-fiving and "you got that cheating wh0re" that makes me believe you all have no empathy for anyone. She was wrong 13 years ago, and it truly IS her fault that so many lives were destroyed.
> 
> So sad for so many people all around.
> 
> Just stop celebrating it. It's unseemly.


No one is celebrating the ficticious misery in which you have -- for whatever reason -- imagined RR's ex-WW is living; rather, RR is being congratulated on taking his life back.

That the two are related is a matter of happenstance.

And what is so untouchable about being old, female, or both?

We reap in old age what we sow in our younger years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MachoMcCoy

GusPolinski said:


> Macho is the worst at reading waywards.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess you're right. You guys pegged this one perfectly. He ditched the cheating ***** and all turned out well.

Hi-Fives all around.

Good luck getting rid of the bitterness guys. Living vicariously through the "success stories" of other betrayed men isn't going to do it, I fear.

All I ask is that you think of the carnage you are encouraging each and everyone to unleash, facts be damned.


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## wmn1

MachoMcCoy said:


> I guess you would. You all would. But not going through life with a "Kill the cheating ***** and destroy all that is dear to her, even if some of those are dear to you as well" attitude, I can see things differently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That touched me as a woman who, in old age, felt that she was getting content in her life. Content with her marriage. Content with her husband. She was at peace with herself. Her family was happy. Her friends were happy.
> 
> So, RR did what he had to do. Fine. It's the hi-fiving and "you got that cheating wh0re" that makes me believe you all have no empathy for anyone. She was wrong 13 years ago, and it truly IS her fault that so many lives were destroyed.
> 
> So sad for so many people all around.
> 
> Just stop celebrating it. It's unseemly.


Noone is high fiving anyone. Many are relieved and pleased that RR finally, AS THE BETRAYED SPOUSE BECAUSE HE IS THAT YOU KNOW MACHO, is able to breathe easy and have piece of mind. We are happy for him.

Your attacks on 'you all' ? Good luck with that


----------



## pidge70

MachoMcCoy said:


> I guess you're right. You guys pegged this one perfectly. He ditched the cheating ***** and all turned out well.
> 
> Hi-Fives all around.
> 
> Good luck getting rid of the bitterness guys. Living vicariously through the "success stories" of other betrayed men isn't going to do it, I fear.
> 
> All I ask is that you think of the carnage you are encouraging each and everyone to unleash, facts be damned.


Maybe you need to work on getting rid of your bitterness first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

MachoMcCoy said:


> I guess you're right. You guys pegged this one perfectly. He ditched the cheating ***** and all turned out well.
> 
> Hi-Fives all around.
> 
> Good luck getting rid of the bitterness guys. Living vicariously through the "success stories" of other betrayed men isn't going to do it, I fear.
> 
> All I ask is that you think of the carnage you are encouraging each and everyone to unleash, facts be damned.


What "facts" have been eschewed here?


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## Truthseeker1

MachoMcCoy said:


> I guess you're right. You guys pegged this one perfectly. He ditched the cheating ***** and all turned out well.
> 
> Hi-Fives all around.
> 
> Good luck getting rid of the bitterness guys. Living vicariously through the "success stories" of other betrayed men isn't going to do it, I fear.
> 
> All I ask is that you think of the carnage you are encouraging each and everyone to unleash, facts be damned.


What facts? What are you talking about? Your posts sound like you are posting on the wrong thread...SMH...


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## Graywolf2

Double post


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## larry.gray

This was just a matter of timing... otherwise we'd be reading posts about how Bandit.45 was wrong to leave his wife.


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## alte Dame

What an odd turn for an ultimately redemptive story.

We can probably all agree that we go through stages in life.

I am headed toward my so-called sunset years, which bring with them an almost visceral understanding of choices like the one RR has made.

He could choose to stay with a woman who cared so little about him that she would gaslight him into mental illness. He could live out his life this way and then die.

Or, he could do what he's done, in which case he may find some peace and joy, after which he will die.

At a certain point you start to understand the 'life is too short' cliché quite literally.

Marriage shouldn't be a life sentence, in my opinion. RR seems to have some regrets about how he made his exit, but not about the exit itself & I can understand that.


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## blahfridge

I understand where river rat is coming from completely. In the years since I first found out about my H's affairs, I have come to understand that my love for him died during the years where we were really struggling as a couple. Somewhere in all that mess, he started cheating, which just sealed the deal for me. Did I stop loving him before or after? It doesn't really matter anymore. I don't know where we will ultimately end up...a big part of me wants to do what the OP did, but another part can see that life IS short and love is imperfect. In fact, it's often times messy and mean and breaks your heart. Knowing all this doesn't change the fact that he blew our marriage apart and caused me untold hours of despair and anger and self-hate. But, it does allow me to be kind to him, and I am determined to continue with that no matter what happens. He's a good father and is actually a decent person, he just came into that too late for us by doing something horrible to me which has had lasting consequences. But, I'm not perfect, by any stretch. 

Blessings on you river rat, and on all of us who are trying to make sense of our lives.


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## river rat II

Hi, folks. It's been awhile since I've been here. When the TAM site had its tech difficulties, I found that I could no longer log in. Wouldn't accept what I remembered as my old info, so I created a new acct- river rat II. Still the same old me. Just an update. I've moved back to my home state to be nearer my kids. The weather got kinda hairy in Louisiana over the summer, so I figured it was time to make a move, anyway. I met for coffee with the ex, at her suggestion. She's been doing some serious work with her therapist. The meeting was at the therapist's recommendation. She really seemed remorseful for all the crap she put me through. She seemed to have acquired a lot of insight as to what she did and why she did it. There were a lot of FOO issues, including sexual abuse as a preteen. She didn't offer any of this as an excuse, but as an explanation and an apology. There was no attempt to rekindle our relationship, for which I was relieved. Just makes it a lot easier for us to co-exist in the same community. I'm glad that she's made this progress. Even though my kids are grown, they still need their mother, and they need her to be healthy.


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## becareful2

Ask a mod to merge your two accounts.

Do you think the explanation was to assuage her guilt?


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## farsidejunky

Hey there, RR. Very nice update. It sounds like both of you are in a better place now. 

I will work on getting your two accounts merged if you like, although I am new to the mod gig and it may take me a few minutes to figure out... LOL

It is good to hear from again.


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## drifter777

Whether you ever truly forgive her or not, I believe you can find peace with this and get past the resentment you feel for her. The fact that you won't be living with her and seeing her face & hearing her voice 24x7 is a tremendous healing force. 

Since you co-parent with her, the two of you getting along is best for everyone - especially your kids.


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## TAMAT

river rat,

Glad you were able to come to a place of peace with your exW. 

Did you also get a confession and the name of the OM? 

I ask because I believe my W has always blamed herself more than the OM seeing them to be good people, which is why even after 20+ years I doubt my W will ever confess. I'm sure her and OM had a pact of silence.

Tamat


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## river rat II

Becareful2, I don't really think that her apology was meant to assuage her guilt. Since it was on advice from her therapist, is feel that it was kinda like one of the steps in a 12 step plan, where you apologize and make peace with those you've harmed. Tamat, I didn't even ask the name of the OM. After all, she was the one who betrayed me. He was just the instrument of that injury. Before I decided to leave her, his name was important to me. But no more. I've moved past caring about that.


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## GusPolinski

FWIW, I'd still want to know. After all, he might have been a friend or relative.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sokillme

I am sorry if this is not you but if I remember you son spotted her with this guy am I right? If so does she know that has she apologized to him?


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## river rat II

Sokillme, that's an interesting question. I don't know if she's talked to my son about what he saw, or if he's told her that he saw them. Since the divorce, I've tried to keep my interaction with my kids on a positive note, and haven't discussed their mom and me. Maybe I'll ask him next time I see him. As to whether OM was a family friend or relative, my son would have known that and I think he'd have told me when we talked about his seeing them. I assume it was someone he didn't recognize. I do have a strong suspicion as to who it was, and he's not someone important to me.


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## farsidejunky

Who do you suspect?


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## river rat II

Farside, shortly before the affair, she had gone back to college to pursue a second degree. New set of friends, among whom was one guy whose name came up in conversation fairly often. He was also in her "study group." I discovered one FB message to him, that while not explicit, was pretty intimate; not the type thing a married person should be saying to someone not their spouse. That's all the evidence I have that points to him. In any event, it's not something I'll lose sleep over any more.


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## TAMAT

river rat,

One thing I think you should do is discuss what your kids saw with them, in many cases children observe their parents cheating but keep it all inside. This was true about my W and a number of my friends growing up.

It might help unburden them from the secrets they dare not tell.

Tamat


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## JohnA

Summers in Louisiana are murder. I recall hiking civil war trails in tennensse in the the seventies in the month of July. My troop was from NJ the troop next to us was from NO. At night we where dying from the heat and the humidity the guys from NO huddled in ther sleeping bags freezing. Moral of the story: stay away from NO in the summer! 

Be well good to hear from you.


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## sokillme

RR, now that you have fully moved on what is your perspective about staying all those years, do you wish you had just left?


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## turnera

JohnA said:


> Summers in Louisiana are murder. I recall hiking civil war trails in tennensse in the the seventies in the month of July. My troop was from NJ the troop next to us was from NO. At night we where dying from the heat and the humidity the guys from NO huddled in ther sleeping bags freezing. Moral of the story: stay away from NO in the summer!


We went to NO twice as part of the Lutheran Youth Ministry (30,000 teenagers attend to do volunteer work somewhere). We were cleaning up a big park one day in the summer and we were warning the northern kids what to look out for - all the different poisonous bugs, snakes, plants, etc., and they were all freaking out at how much dangerous stuff we have down here, lol. How can youse guys survive down here?


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## river rat II

Sokillme, what I wish is that I had been in a place emotionally that would have allowed me to confront the issues in our marriage. That would have given us resolution, one way or the other.


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## turnera

We're constantly learning, though, aren't we? If we knew everything going in, we'd never have problems.


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## Truthseeker1

Hi @river rat II just checking in, how are you doing?


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## sokillme

Was reminded of your thread today @river rat II. How is life?


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## Truthseeker1




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## BruceBanner

StillSearching said:


> I think you did the right thing. Just keep her close and always have your guard near.


This is no way to live. I'd rather just be single for all eternity. Having to look over your shoulder to make sure spouse is being "loyal" is ridiculous. If you have to go to such means then your spouse is obviously not loyal and only "loyal" when they think you're watching.


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## StillSearching

BruceBanner said:


> This is no way to live. I'd rather just be single for all eternity. Having to look over your shoulder to make sure spouse is being "loyal" is ridiculous. If you have to go to such means then your spouse is obviously not loyal and only "loyal" when they think you're watching.


I am not sure when I wrote this?
It must have been during my last R.
But the whole R was a lie on her part. 
I totally agree with you Hulk now. My wife left me 4 months ago. Life's much better now.


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## Brokenman70

I asked wife for the details because I felt that I needed to know everything. Well i got all the details and it sickens me..I thought I could handle it and for the most part I have, but sometimes I get the visuals and it really sucks!


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