# Another Man Threatening Our Healing



## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Hello all,
In some other posts, I've detailed the issues my wife and I have. We are in MC and hope to make progress. 

However, a new threat has emerged that could derail our healing. I've found some e-mails from my wife's twin sis's ex-husband. The details on this aren't important, except to say that he is closer to her family right now than her sister is. 

Anyway,she and he have been exchanging a lot of e-mails lately. She's telling him cute things our son is doing that she hasn't told me. More disturbing are some of his e-mails. 

He's taken to calling her "Sweetie. " He told her she and my son have a "piece of his heart. " Last week I took my son to our local fire department open house and the OM sent an e-mail saying "I wish I were the one taking you guys to the FD. "

Or how about: "Next tume (hurtn)is out of town, maybe I'll drive down there and wrestle some. Sounds like fun. " (He and his ex used to use "wrestling" as a euphemism for sex. Or how about him sending her a "Happy Sweetest Day" e-mail. Then he followed up with "What kind of brownie points do I get for that? I have something in mind, but I wanna see what yoome up with. "

Here's my plan: I'm going to print them out and take them to our next MC session. I'll insist in no uncertain terms that she tells him his behavior must stop. I'll also insist that we both keep each other updated any time we change e-mail passwords. If she closes off my access to her e-mail, I will take that as a sign she's hiding something. If she refuses, I'm going to call him and cofront him.If they both rebuff me, I'll send copies of all their e-mails to everyone in the family and explaim what's going on. 

Anybody have anything else I need to think about here? Am I reading too much into these e-mails?


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## HerToo (Oct 3, 2011)

Why wait for MC? Do it now. Even though she may not be sending him texts or emails, she's not stopping him. That's a problem.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Actually I'd suggest no contact with him. He is clearly crossing the line, and fishing for much much more. He needs to be gone completely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

What kind of scumbag hits on his ex`s MARRIED sister?

Print them out and tell your wife to go NC with him.

Are the issues that have you in MC caused by infidelity?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I`m bringing this turnera quote in from your "She doesn`t trust me" thread.




turnera said:


> Come on. Don't you know by now that guilty people project onto you so that you can't look badly at them? You're too busy defending YOURSELF! She will continue to blame everything on you so you don't make her look at herself.


Words of wisdom apparently


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Tell your W's sis. I'll bet the reason that they divorced was because of crap like this. Your W needs to pull the plug on him like yesterday!


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

I learned my W was continuing a supposedly ended EA just a few days before our first MC session, and printed out the emails. The night before, withou telling her I knew, I gave her a chance to come clean...asked her if he'd tried contacting her again since she broke contact. She said he hadn't. The next morning, while telling the counselor what made us seek MC, I said that the EA was still going on. W denied. Out came the copies of the emails.

When we got home, she immediately sent him a NC email. Although he attempted to just ignore it, that was nipped in the bud. According to all of my info gathering tools, there has been NC since then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

F-102 said:


> Tell your W's sis. I'll bet the reason that they divorced was because of crap like this. Your W needs to pull the plug on him like yesterday!


No thanks. They divorced because her sister cheated on him with a drug dealer. There's something Jerry Springer-esque about this whole scenario.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

Grayson said:


> I learned my W was continuing a supposedly ended EA just a few days before our first MC session, and printed out the emails. The night before, withou telling her I knew, I gave her a chance to come clean...asked her if he'd tried contacting her again since she broke contact. She said he hadn't. The next morning, while telling the counselor what made us seek MC, I said that the EA was still going on. W denied. Out came the copies of the emails.
> 
> When we got home, she immediately sent him a NC email. Although he attempted to just ignore it, that was nipped in the bud. According to all of my info gathering tools, there has been NC since then.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



That's sounds like a good approach, actually. Give her a chance to own up... and if she doesn't...


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Perhaps this is some mental illness where he misses his WW so much, he's compensating with a carbon-copy of her?


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

I especially "like" the stuff about wanting to be with the kids. that's like honey in a WW's ear.

Scumbag.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

HerToo said:


> Why wait for MC? Do it now. Even though she may not be sending him texts or emails, she's not stopping him. That's a problem.


Yes. She's not being overtly encouragin, but shisn't shutting him down either. I want to do it in front of the counselor so she can't misrepresent what I say later.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

tacoma said:


> What kind of scumbag hits on his ex`s MARRIED sister?
> 
> Print them out and tell your wife to go NC with him.
> 
> Are the issues that have you in MC caused by infidelity?


Infidelity is the one thing we've not had a problem with. Until now.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

hurtnohio said:


> Yes. She's not being overtly encouragin, but shisn't shutting him down either. I want to do it in front of the counselor so she can't misrepresent what I say later.


I read you other threads and noticed that it is always about what your wife thinks that matters to you and her and that what you think does not matter enough to stand on its own. You do not need a counselor to verify that you are right when you are right. What you think, feel and say matters. If not to your wife, then it is time to tell her the marriage is over.

Her treatment of you is abusive. You are treated like a slave. She will no longer have sex with you and does not even share a bedroom with you anymore. Now she is starting an EA affair with another man and you know that she cares so little about what you think that you need another party to tell her that it is wrong.

Just how bad does your marriage have to get before you take action. It is not all about what she wants. Your happiness should matter if not to her then at least to you. Start moving forward with your life in a way that will make you happy. If she does not want to be part of that life then leave her. There is someone out there that you will be happy with. You will look back on this marriage and ask why you stayed and suffered for so long.

And do not hide behind your child. They will be happier and feel more secure when you are happier. The current situation is not reasonable for you to continue in for even one more minute.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

TRy said:


> I read you other threads and noticed that it is always about what your wife thinks that matters to you and her and that what you think does not matter enough to stand on its own. You do not need a counselor to verify that you are right when you are right. What you think, feel and say matters. If not to your wife, then it is time to tell her the marriage is over.
> 
> Her treatment of you is abusive. You are treated like a slave. She will no longer have sex with you and does not even share a bedroom with you anymore. Now she is starting an EA affair with another man and you know that she cares so little about what you think that you need another party to tell her that it is wrong.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Or else she will find the OM she wants to run off with, and he will find that she left and is serving HIM divorce papers.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

TRy said:


> I read you other threads and noticed that it is always about what your wife thinks that matters to you and her and that what you think does not matter enough to stand on its own. You do not need a counselor to verify that you are right when you are right. What you think, feel and say matters. If not to your wife, then it is time to tell her the marriage is over.


Actually, one of the things I have learned through all this is to trust my own judgment. My wife is very adept at gaslighting, and for years I accepted her version of the truth rather than my own. I am learning to stand on my own judgments now. While it may seem like I've got a long way to go, I feel better about myself every day because I don't base my value in what she says or does. This issue with the emotional affair just make me plain angry. In the past, I would have blamed myself.

The reason I want to confront her in front of the MC is to have a third party be witness to the confrontation. For something of this magnitude, I want to make sure an objective witness is there to possibly prevent her from distorting what occurs.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

hurtnohio said:


> Actually, one of the things I have learned through all this is to trust my own judgment. My wife is very adept at gaslighting, and for years I accepted her version of the truth rather than my own. I am learning to stand on my own judgments now. While it may seem like I've got a long way to go, I feel better about myself every day because I don't base my value in what she says or does. This issue with the emotional affair just make me plain angry. In the past, I would have blamed myself.
> 
> The reason I want to confront her in front of the MC is to have a third party be witness to the confrontation. For something of this magnitude, I want to make sure an objective witness is there to possibly prevent her from distorting what occurs.


You’ve obviously come a very long way to get to the stage you are at. Very well done. Some of us had such a need to believe our wives that it kind of over ruled any common sense. There does come a time when we give up on “trying to understand” and instead come to our own judgements and conclusions no matter what they say. It’s like we’ve accepted that they are a liar and we no longer take them at their word.

I think it very sad in a marriage and if it is the case that the wife is a habitual or compulsive liar then that’s almost impossible to change. Being that way got her what she wanted in the past. Can she get what she wants by behaving with integrity and credibility? I somehow doubt it. But then she may well be a pathological liar and that’s a whole different ball game.

If your wife knows this has happened, that you no longer trust her and therefore she can no longer gaslight you, deceive and delude you etc., then you will probably see very big changes in her and she may actually decide to leave because you are no longer to be manipulated.

I think you found your way to personal boundaries, which is excellent and you may want to do some reading up on them if you haven’t already. These boundaries are our “rules” and in these cases rules about how we wont be treated. About what we will not tolerate.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

hurtnohio said:


> The reason I want to confront her in front of the MC is to have a third party be witness to the confrontation. For something of this magnitude, I want to make sure an objective witness is there to possibly prevent her from distorting what occurs.


You still do not get it. You do not need anyone but you to believe in you. That means that no matter how our wife later distorts what occurred, you move forward based on what you know to be the truth. Stop waiting to get approval from others before taking action.

No matter how your wife later tries to spin it, she knows in her heart what really happened. Bottom line is that once you man up and tell her that you are not buying into her lies, and that you will proceed on what you know to be true, she will start respecting you. Hiding behind a MC will never get you that respect.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

TRy said:


> You still do not get it. You do not need anyone but you to believe in you. That means that no matter how our wife later distorts what occurred, you move forward based on what you know to be the truth. Stop waiting to get approval from others before taking action.
> 
> No matter how your wife later tries to spin it, she knows in her heart what really happened. Bottom line is that once you man up and tell her that you are not buying into her lies, and that you will proceed on what you know to be true, she will start respecting you. Hiding behind a MC will never get you that respect.


They are in MC for this very thing. To have a third party mediate. He knows the communication dynamic in his marriage. If he feels the discussion will be more productive in the MC session then go for it. He'll have to come home and deal with it by himself after the hour long session anyway.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

hurtnohio said:


> She's telling him cute things our son is doing that she hasn't told me. More disturbing are some of his e-mails.


She's sharing intimate details of her family with a man that isn't her husband. Definitely a red flag of an EA.



hurtnohio said:


> He's taken to calling her "Sweetie. "
> 
> He told her she and my son have a "piece of his heart. "
> 
> ...


Scumbag is so making a play. What I would like to know is why she hasn't shot him down already. Scumbag asked her if they could have sex for goodness sakes. He WOULD NOT have been able to get away with that if she wasn't reciprocating.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey Hurt----I don't know if i have read your beginning threads---but I sure do not understand where you are coming from---in this instance

This is tween you and your wife---you don't need to involve a MC----you don't need to tell anyone else----

You have printed out E-Mails, that are inappropriate, and your wife is participating, instead of shutting them down

You deal with one person here, and one person only---YOUR WIFE-----none of this would be happening BUT FOR what your wife has done/is doing

Stop making excuses for not confronting, what YOU KNOW NEEDS TO BE DONE

Tell your wife to end this contact, and to do it now-----You send the NC letter, tell the scumbag to stop contacting your wife, or there will be legal action taken agst. him, as in Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress---tell your wife if she has ANY more contact of any kind, there will be consequences for her----stop with the 3rd party crap that someone else has to see what is going on---NO ONE ELSE HAS TO SEE WHAT IS GOING ON---act like a man, and tell your wife the way it WILL BE


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

jnj express said:


> Hey Hurt----I don't know if i have read your beginning threads---but I sure do not understand where you are coming from---in this instance
> 
> This is tween you and your wife---you don't need to involve a MC----you don't need to tell anyone else----
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
On the money right. Well said.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Confronted my wife about the e-mails last night in front of the MC. Told her I didn't think she had done anything wrong, but I had deep concerns about the OM's intentions. She told me I was crazy. Looked deeply and sincerely hurt. Said even thinking about having an affair with him was "gross" to her. Said it would be as bad as me having an affair with my own sister. I told her I'm sure she felt that way, but I had some supsicions about his intentions.

Came home and she started berating me for "accusing" her of having an affair (even though I took great pains to say I didn't think she had participated). Seemed most angry that I was "snooping" on her. 

Today, she forwarded an e-mail to me from the OM. Here's what it said: "OK....I was only trying to make you laugh and smile! I would never try to hurt things between you and him! So (Hurtnohio) if you're reading this, please re-read the last sentence."

That's it. No other explanation.

Am I going crazy? The things he said sounded like a long-lost lover pining for his true love. Now, they're both making me sound like I'm some kind of over-paranoid crazy man. 

I'm also not real excited that rather than deal with things like adults, we're forwarding e-mails to each other with snide little comments thrown in. But that's another issued for another day.

Did I really misread this that badly?


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

They are working together to undermine you . A starting point for you is if there is to be any form of relationship between you and your wife this guy goes. He is intruding on your marriage and playing a nasty game and your wife is willingly participating .

Any man who send mails to another mans wife without the husband knowing or approving is doing this to harm the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Do you have copies of the mails ? If not get them, give your wife one choice , she goes NC on this guy permanently he is a preditor .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You are trying to work on the marriage, you bring up an important concern of yours. Not only does she deny and tell you that you are wrong and your felons don't matter, but dye runs straight to him , spills your sincere heartfelt concerns to him, and he turns around and belittles you.

Why are you trying with her? He clearly has very little respect for your feelings.

It s one thng to say she doesn't see it that way, but to immediately involve him, followed by him mocking you.

I'd kick her to the curb at this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

hurtnohio said:


> Confronted my wife about the e-mails last night in front of the MC. Told her I didn't think she had done anything wrong, but I had deep concerns about the OM's intentions. She told me I was crazy. Looked deeply and sincerely hurt. Said even thinking about having an affair with him was "gross" to her. Said it would be as bad as me having an affair with my own sister. I told her I'm sure she felt that way, but I had some supsicions about his intentions.
> 
> Came home and she started berating me for "accusing" her of having an affair (even though I took great pains to say I didn't think she had participated). Seemed most angry that I was "snooping" on her.
> 
> ...


This is unfaithful. Tell her this is unacceptable and that she must go total NC with him immediatley. Period. No negotiations. Otherwise you contact your lawyer. Which you may want to do anyway.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

She berated you in front of the MC, accused you of snooping on her, she is gaslighting you, telling you that YOU'RE the crazy one.

Tell me, how long did it take for her to produce that e-mail that "proves" you're wrong?

She's showing some classic red flags-she's cheating and trying to keep it underground, but you found out, and now she's trying to make you the bad guy because she knows that her cake-eating days are over.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I think you should ask your wife point blank about this statement from their email:

"Next time (hurtn)is out of town, maybe I'll drive down there and wrestle some. Sounds like fun. " 

Ask her to send this to the OM for him to explain. I don't see how she can turn this statement around to make it innocent.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Any possibility she has cheated with him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> Any possibility she has cheated with him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think so, but not sure what to believe any more. He lives a significant distance away. He is around when she visits her mom and dad, but they live full time in an RV so family visits are rather "crowded" so it would be near impossible for them to have any "alone" time. Plus, her mom and dad insist everybody in the family do everything together - even if it's driving to the store for milk - so I really don't think there's been an opportunity. Plus, while I am suspicious of his intentions, I just don't get that vibe from her. I think she's being incredibly naive not to see what he's up to, and I fear she's playing with fire to confide in him when our marriage is in trouble. But I honestly don't think she's gone there. Yet.

I am angry that he chose to address me through an e-mail to her. I e-mailed him directly, telling him that I would appreciate direct contact in the future and also telling him to call my phone if he wanted to talk, because I refuse to argue via e-mail. So far, my phone has been silent.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

hurtnohio said:


> Confronted my wife about the e-mails last night in front of the MC. Told her I didn't think she had done anything wrong, but I had deep concerns about the OM's intentions. She told me I was crazy. Looked deeply and sincerely hurt. Said even thinking about having an affair with him was "gross" to her. Said it would be as bad as me having an affair with my own sister. I told her I'm sure she felt that way, but I had some supsicions about his intentions.
> 
> Came home and she started berating me for "accusing" her of having an affair (even though I took great pains to say I didn't think she had participated). Seemed most angry that I was "snooping" on her.
> 
> ...


Wow. A prime example of the term "Gas Lighting". Look it up. If you're crazy, then we're all crazy as well. :rofl:

She even had the nerve to set you up with a PREPARED email from OM. 

I'll have to copy your post to my notes to serve an example of a WS that is gas lighting.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Classic gaslighting!

At this point, question whether there is a thing called oxygen in the air when it appears she is breathing.

:iagree:


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Gaslighting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_Gaslighting is a form of *psychological abuse* in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory and perception. It may simply be the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, or it could be the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim.

The term "gaslighting" comes from the play Gas Light and its film adaptations. In those works a character uses a variety of tricks, including turning the gas lamps lower than normal, to convince his spouse that she is crazy. Since then it became a colloquial expression which has now also been used in clinical and research literature._

Gaslighting is part of the cheaters script. Chapter 2 I think. 

I really don't know how else you can interpret ""*Next tume (hurtnohio)is out of town*, maybe I'll drive down there and wrestle some. Sounds like fun. " (He and his ex used to use "wrestling" as a euphemism for sex). 

She's gaslighting you, further proof that she doesn't respect you and the marriage and wants to keep carrying on with him. Unless you really want to believe that he wants to come to town when you're out of town and "mount" her (a real life wrestling term), or maybe pile drive her.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

hurtnohio said:


> No thanks. They divorced because her sister cheated on him with a drug dealer. There's something Jerry Springer-esque about this whole scenario.


You are right, there is something very messed up with that entire family. Both sisters are cheats mas is one of their ex-husbands.

Listen, you are involved with a nest of vipers. You might want to consider bailing out. These folks sound like the products of inbreeding, seriously.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

hurtnohio said:


> Confronted my wife about the e-mails last night in front of the MC. Told her I didn't think she had done anything wrong, but I had deep concerns about the OM's intentions. She told me I was crazy. Looked deeply and sincerely hurt. Said even thinking about having an affair with him was "gross" to her. Said it would be as bad as me having an affair with my own sister. I told her I'm sure she felt that way, but I had some supsicions about his intentions.
> 
> Came home and she started berating me for "accusing" her of having an affair (even though I took great pains to say I didn't think she had participated). Seemed most angry that I was "snooping" on her.
> 
> ...


F, no. These folks are gaslighting you. They are abusers.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Sorry to keep posting, but as I read your story, I realize that you are unaware of one of the fundamental tells as to whether somoen has cheated or is cheating.
See, once you confront a cheater with any type of evidence or concern, the most telling reactio is the one you describe your wife having.
Now, listen. It is very normal for us to beleive, at first, that a person falsely accused of something naturally reacts defensively and with anger. It seems to make sense , until you really stop and think about it.
See, a spouse cheating is a unique deal. You are not dealing with a stranger, who very well might react to a false accusation with some sort of hostility(although the more likely reactio would still be one of bewilderment). But, with a spouse, someone who is supposed to love you and care about your welfare, the real natural reaction would be one of concern. Sure, there might be some initial confusion.bewilderment. But,after that, there would be concern, if she was innocent. She would be highly invested in alleviating your fears and would spend whatever time neccessary to go through your concerns and to show you where you are wrong/.
An innocent, loving spouse would never react as your wife did. You can rest assured you have busted her and she is employing the "best defense is an offense" technique.
What cheaters fail to realize , when they do this, howevr, is that what they seems like a natural reaction by a falsely accused innocent person is anything but that. It is one of the most accurate signs that you have it right.
Cops know this. When they see someone react like this, they know they are on to something.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Arnold said:


> Sorry to keep posting, but as I read your story, I realize that you are unaware of one of the fundamental tells as to whether somoen has cheated or is cheating.
> See, once you confront a cheater with any type of evidence or concern, the most telling reactio is the one you describe your wife having.
> Now, listen. It is very normal for us to beleive, at first, that a person falsely accused of something naturally reacts defensively and with anger. It seems to make sense , until you really stop and think about it.
> See, a spouse cheating is a unique deal. You are not dealing with a stranger, who very well might react to a false accusation with some sort of hostility(although the more likely reactio would still be one of bewilderment). But, with a spouse, someone who is supposed to love you and care about your welfare, the real natural reaction would be one of concern. Sure, there might be some initial confusion.bewilderment. But,after that, there would be concern, if she was innocent. She would be highly invested in alleviating your fears and would spend whatever time neccessary to go through your concerns and to show you where you are wrong/.
> ...


If you have to, bring up the wrestling quote to MC. Sounds like she definitely oveerreacted and took brother in laws side.

He might even be causing trouble to get revenge on the family.

Is he still communicating with her. Did you ask him why he was saying he wanted to "wrestle" with your wife and tell him he can wrestle with you. 

Did you tell him no contact with your family?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Do you see a relation between this and the fit she threw when you slept in her bed? Not implying anything buy just don't be naive and don't miss the signs. These are huge red flags here.

Aslo she talked to him about this? Incredible!!!


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

warlock07 said:


> Do you see a relation between this and the fit she threw when you slept in her bed? Not implying anything buy just don't be naive and don't miss the signs. These are huge red flags here.
> 
> Aslo she talked to him about this? Incredible!!!


Here throwing me out of our bedroom was one of the signs that indicated to me that I might need to start "snooping" to see if anything turned up.

Even if she doesn't have "those" kind of feelings toward this guy, it disturbs me that she looks to him for validation instead of me. And the fact that when she does address my concerns, it's to belittle them instead of trying to understand where I'm coming from.

I get the fact that I am not the best validator around; I have consciously been trying to work at taking her concerns seriously. But it's hard to do that when her biggest concern right now is protecting her e-mail privacy and keeping me out of her sanctuary.

I'm just so tired of dealing with it all. I have absolutely no emotional energy left. I just feel numb and dead inside. Things are so bad right now if I said the sky was blue, I think she'd argue that it's green just to disagree with me. I'm really lost right now.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Ignore this a-hole. Stop eating all her **** sandwiches.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

The speed at which she turned to him, and the way she did it after MC, are huge red flags.

Along with his emails to her about her and your son, I think clearly show there is an inappropriate relationship going on there, even a physical one. Unless you belong on Jerry Springer, you don't send clear sex propositions to your ex wife's twin sister. That's just trashy, unless there is something going on that is.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

hurtnohio said:


> Here throwing me out of our bedroom was one of the signs that indicated to me that I might need to start "snooping" to see if anything turned up.
> 
> Even if she doesn't have "those" kind of feelings toward this guy, it disturbs me that she looks to him for validation instead of me. And the fact that when she does address my concerns, it's to belittle them instead of trying to understand where I'm coming from.
> 
> ...


So let me get this straight. She's the cheater and threw YOU out of the bedroom, she gaslights you, blameshifts, refuses to be transparent, unremorseful, and looks like she's in a full on EA with EX BIL. The question is why are you putting up with this? You know she gave up any right to secrecy when she cheated, right? If she wanted secrecy, she shouldn't have gotten married. What she's doing goes into secrecy. There's a difference between privacy and secrecy. Privacy is shutting the door to the bathroom when you're using it. 

The state you're in is called LIMBO. She's actively in an affair, definitely EA, but may also be PA, you will never know until you investigate. She should NOT be talking about intimate details of your marriage with anyone besides you and a counsellor. EX BIL is definitely not family.

You say you don't have any energy left. Well, you need to find some, some how.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> So let me get this straight. She's the cheater and threw YOU out of the bedroom, she gaslights you, blameshifts, refuses to be transparent, unremorseful, and looks like she's in a full on EA with EX BIL. The question is why are you putting up with this? You know she gave up any right to secrecy when she cheated, right? If she wanted secrecy, she shouldn't have gotten married. What she's doing goes into secrecy. There's a difference between privacy and secrecy. Privacy is shutting the door to the bathroom when you're using it.
> 
> The state you're in is called LIMBO. She's actively in an affair, definitely EA, but may also be PA, you will never know until you investigate. She should NOT be talking about intimate details of your marriage with anyone besides you and a counsellor. EX BIL is definitely not family.
> 
> You say you don't have any energy left. Well, you need to find some, some how.


To me it's not as straightforward as you make it sound. Yes, she did allow the other guy to send her e-mails that were inappropriate. And yes, she did get angry with me when I revealed that I had been reading them. However, I never saw anything that was a smoking gun that proved to me that she actually cheated. She never responded to his inappropriate comments in ways that encouraged him. For example, he asked her what kind of brownie points he would get for remembering to wish her "Happy Sweetest Day." She responded that she could always bake some brownies and mail them to him. Which prompted his response, "I'd rather have a 2 -day long hug and maybe some wrestling." She never replied to that comment. So in that interaction, which I find completely suspicious, I can't point to anything overtly that she did wrong.

Her only inappropriate actions so far (regarding this incident) has been passivity in allowing him to send these e-mails without shutting him down and her anger at me. However, she's angry at me a lot, so I can't really call that a smoking gun either. And she's arguing that she didn't read all the same undertones into these e-mails that I did.

If I had specific proof that she had an affair or planned an affair, my action plan would be cut-and-dried. It's either cut off contact now or leave. But this is a mushy, ill-defined threat. I think the other guy was playing with fire, and was fishing to see if she was interested, but if I had to build a case for infidelity, I don't think I could do it. What he did was highly questionable and inappropriate, but not so clear-cut as nude pictures or plans to shack up at a hotel. I decided to confront the situation because I know how stuff like this can quickly evolve into EAs or PAs when one partner is interested and the other one is dissatisfied with their marriage. I wanted to stop an affair before it started.

For example, his wrestling comment was made in the context of an e-mail she sent him about how she had spent the evening wrestling with our son when I was out of town on a trip. Totally innocent. His reply was "Wrestling sounds fun. Maybe I can take a day off work and drive down to wrestle some." Now, you could argue that this was just an uncle who wanted to wrestle some with his nephew. 

But what got my attention was about a week later when he brought up wrestling in a totally unrelated e-mail, and said he would take time off work if he needed to do come do "some wrestling" when I was away. He made that statement in the context of telling my wife he wanted to give her a 2-day long hug that might make people talk, so I'm pretty sure I know what he meant. Especially since "wrestling" was a family joke when he was married to her sister. But since he also said it once in the context of playing with my son (his nephew), he could always argue that it was innocent. 

Taken one at a time, all of his comments could be argued as being innocent. It's just the sheer totality of them, the way that all his comments seemed to imply that I was out of the picture, and the fact that my gut was screaming at me every time I saw a comment that made me believe this was an alarm bell.

I almost wish things were as clear-cut as catching them together in a hotel room. My gut tells me what he did was completely inappropriate, and yet I know that he could find a way to explain every single e-mail away. 

That's why I have no energy left. Clear-cut instances of infidelity are relatively easy to manage (of course, not emotionally, but the decisions that must be made are fairly clear); there's a moment of crisis upon discovery and then you must make a decision. I almost envy people here who found sexting going on between their spouse and the OM. At least then it's pretty clear what's going on. I know that what I saw had a lot of red flags, and I still believe that my intuition was correct. But I saw nothing that could clearly seal the case. Since there's nothing completely clear-cut here, it makes gaslighting so much easier.

How do you fight e-mails that are merely questionable? One friend told me I should have waited until it developed into a full-blown affair and then I would have had my proof. I decided it was better to prevent an affair than to litigate after one. I acted proactively to prevent a threat that I believe was real, but I took action early enough that it's now easy for them to dismiss my concerns and to try to make me out to be overly paranoid.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Hurtin

You realize what your doing, right?

Your so caught up in analysis and justification you can't see the forest through the trees. 

It doesn't matter that you don't have a smoking gun. The issue is that you have an issue with it at all. If it bothers you then it's important. It's your feelings and they are never wrong. 

Believe in yourself enough to feel your boundaries enough to know when they are being crossed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

And has BIL stopped communicating with your wife and how do you know?


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

alphaomega said:


> Hurtin
> 
> You realize what your doing, right?
> 
> ...


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


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