# Is there such a thing as too many compliments?



## nirvana

I have been getting this feeling for the past few months. That my compliments to my wife have less and less "value". My wife is in her late 30s and takes good care of herself (and us) and looks beautiful and hot. However, I also think she is LD and is too much into the kids and not into me, after we had kids. At times I feel that I am just a paycheck for her in order to pay for her life projects (our kids). Many husbands feel this way and are guilted into being okay with this in today's messed up feminist society.

Anyway, the reason the thread is I feel that I may have given her too many compliments over the years, so from the law of demand and supply, the value of my compliments have gone down. I tell her she looks beautiful when she dresses up and she has a "ok whatever" expression even when she says thank you. She is a great cook and when I saw that something she's made is awesome, she says the equivalent of "oh?" absent mindedly as if she wasn't really listening. Every morning as I come downstairs from bed, I come and hug her from the back and feel up her waist and hips (god I love that) and then her butt. I do that in bed before we fall asleep too.

Since I am not happy with how she now responds, I have put a stop to all of this for the past 3 days. No compliments on looks or cooking. No touching. I think she has to do her part to keep the fire alive. She very very rarely compliments me and often has a littany of complaints that I did not do this or that, so if there is so much negativity, I don't feel like saying anything nice about her. I don't want to say bad things about her, so I will stop the nice things.

Let's see if she misses it. If not, then I will have my answer.


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## Holland

Have you ever looked at yourself and asked what you have done to help create the misery you seem to live in? You often tell us how wonderful you are and how awful your wife is, maybe she doesn't think you are so wonderful and she is sick of feeling like you think she is awful.



> At times I feel that I am just a paycheck for her in order to pay for her life projects (our kids). Many husbands feel this way and are guilted into being okay with this in today's messed up feminist society.


This quote just screams immature and entitled and I'm not talking about your wife.


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## Mostlycontent

nirvana said:


> I have been getting this feeling for the past few months. That my compliments to my wife have less and less "value". My wife is in her late 30s and takes good care of herself (and us) and looks beautiful and hot. However, I also think she is LD and is too much into the kids and not into me, after we had kids. At times I feel that I am just a paycheck for her in order to pay for her life projects (our kids). Many husbands feel this way and are guilted into being okay with this in today's messed up feminist society.
> 
> Anyway, the reason the thread is I feel that I may have given her too many compliments over the years, so from the law of demand and supply, the value of my compliments have gone down. I tell her she looks beautiful when she dresses up and she has a "ok whatever" expression even when she says thank you. She is a great cook and when I saw that something she's made is awesome, she says the equivalent of "oh?" absent mindedly as if she wasn't really listening. Every morning as I come downstairs from bed, I come and hug her from the back and feel up her waist and hips (god I love that) and then her butt. I do that in bed before we fall asleep too.
> 
> Since I am not happy with how she now responds, I have put a stop to all of this for the past 3 days. No compliments on looks or cooking. No touching. I think she has to do her part to keep the fire alive. She very very rarely compliments me and often has a littany of complaints that I did not do this or that, so if there is so much negativity, I don't feel like saying anything nice about her. I don't want to say bad things about her, so I will stop the nice things.
> 
> Let's see if she misses it. If not, then I will have my answer.


To answer your primary question, yes, I believe you can compliment too much.

My wife is not one to toss around compliments much either but she does throw me the occasional bone. Some people aren't wired in that way, which is somewhat inconsiderate if you ask me.

I am more verbal in my appreciation for some of the things my wife does. Over the years though, I have considerably reduced the number of compliments or accolades that I use. 

Her primary love language is "acts of service" so I don't think she notices all that much. Although I will say that her compliments and affection toward me has picked up since I cut way down. It's an interesting dynamic for sure.


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## Mostlycontent

Holland said:


> Have you ever looked at yourself and asked what you have done to help create the misery you seem to live in? You often tell us how wonderful you are and how awful your wife is, maybe she doesn't think you are so wonderful and she is sick of feeling like you think she is awful.
> 
> 
> 
> This quote just screams immature and entitled and I'm not talking about your wife.



I don't find that to be the case at all. By your tone, you don't believe that a man should be entitled to anything in the relationship, which is wrong on so many levels.

At its core, a relationship involves two people with base needs. It's clear that OP would like to be recognized, considered and appreciated for his efforts and to feel that his emotional needs were being met. In the absence of that, you feel unnecessary and yes, frankly used for the lifestyle you provide.

Many, many men feel as though they come after the kids when it comes to their wife's priority level. In fact some feel rather distantly behind the children in the pecking order. That is not something new or immature or entitled but more likely hard fact.

I'm also quite certain that if a woman were writing this very thing that the ladies would flock to the thread to tell her what an assclown she was married to. The group think here is predictable when it comes to some of this stuff.


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## Holland

Mostlycontent said:


> I don't find that to be the case at all. By your tone, you don't believe that a man should be entitled to anything in the relationship, which is wrong on so many levels.
> 
> At its core, a relationship involves two people with base needs. It's clear that OP would like to be recognized, considered and appreciated for his efforts and to feel that his emotional needs were being met. In the absence of that, you feel unnecessary and yes, frankly used for the lifestyle you provide.
> 
> Many, many men feel as though they come after the kids when it comes to their wife's priority level. In fact some feel rather distantly behind the children in the pecking order. That is not something new or immature or entitled but more likely hard fact.
> 
> I'm also quite certain that if a woman were writing this very thing that the ladies would flock to the thread to tell her what an assclown she was married to. The group think here is predictable when it comes to some of this stuff.


Based on his other threads I stand by what I said. You have superimposed tone into my reply without having any idea of what I actually think men should or should not be entitled to in a relationship. I am a smart, well balanced woman surrounded by lots of great relationship examples and in an excellent relationship myself.

As for compliments, they are in abundance here, both ways so no I don't think there can be too many as long as they are genuine and part of a good, healthy relationship. The OP does not have a good relationship and going by his past threads I would guess the compliments are not as genuine as he may think they are.


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## Mostlycontent

Holland said:


> Based on his other threads I stand by what I said. You have superimposed tone into my reply without having any idea of what I actually think men should or should not be entitled to in a relationship. I am a smart, well balanced woman surrounded by lots of great relationship examples and in an excellent relationship myself.
> 
> As for compliments, they are in abundance here, both ways so no I don't think there can be too many as long as they are genuine and part of a good, healthy relationship. The OP does not have a good relationship and going by his past threads I would guess the compliments are not as genuine as he may think they are.


I'll have to take your word for it with regards to other threads OP may have as I'm not here often and don't know his history.

What I do know is that people are here for support or advice and being told they are immature or entitled is a bit insulting. I don't think you'll get anyone to listen to what you say if you approach them with that rhetoric. Now if you're only expressing aggravation with him and not trying to help, then it makes perfect sense.


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## tom67

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv-9Bd53wjw


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## Holland

Mostlycontent said:


> I'll have to take your word for it with regards to other threads OP may have as I'm not here often and don't know his history.
> 
> What I do know is that people are here for support or advice and being told they are immature or entitled is a bit insulting. I don't think you'll get anyone to listen to what you say if you approach them with that rhetoric. Now if you're only expressing aggravation with him and not trying to help, then it makes perfect sense.


Spot on. My intention was not for him to listen to anything I say it was as you say "expressing aggravation". 

If he were a new poster or someone without the "poor me" mentality then I would not have made the first reply I did.


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## SimplyAmorous

I think it's sad .. sorry .. I think people too often loose sight of what is important.. they lack gratitude for what they have right in front of them.. 

I always think of 2 things in these regards....*#1* ) ...is there built up resentment/ apathy in the marriage?? ...loss of respect, loss of attraction.. 

or *#2* ) a Love Language one just doesn't recognize or feel necessary / which causes the other to feel their cup is sourly lacking...it would make one feel "taken for granted".. 

Me personally.. I feel it's very important to validate & encourage our spouse... when they do something wonderful... praise him (or her)! .. thank him.. tell him how much it means to us... there is also a time for some constructive criticism...when it calls for it, of course.. it helps when both partners can accept this ...but never leave out some lovely "*words of affirmation*"... some admiration... some flirting, so I feel.. 

But then it's true... some people are just NOT WIRED to give compliments... I know of an older couple.. they get along well.. good marriage....where the husband literally NEVER gave compliments... But he is VERY BIG ON *ACTS OF SERVICE* & *GIFTS* ....the 1st time he complimented his wife...she almost fainted.. she will never forget the black dress she was wearing.. I spoke of this near the ending of my "love languages" thread...because it kinda blew my mind! 
I was like







.... it was 10 or 19 yrs into their marriage (something unheard of).... I looked at her & thought "MY God -I'd want to kill a man like that [email protected]#"...

NIrvana.. for whatever reason.. It sounds your wife has lost the spark ... I think this thread could be of help to you.. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html


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## Bobby5000

Don't recall the other posts and that could change things. But yes, if a woman is pretty, and you compliment her repeatedly, that can be a problem. Women frequently like what they cannot have. The confident guy more often get the guy than the needy fawning one. I would try to work on your physical appearance, get in shape, good haircut, improve your clothes, and being less needy and more independent and mysterious can help.


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## nirvana

I see the trolls have raised their heads in this thread and I will be ignoring their posts. A certain poster has created a strawman and beaten it down with incorrect assumptions and lies and then is being very self-righteous about himself, most likely to get validation and admiration from some ladies on this thread. I have seen such types in real life also. If I argue with them, I will waste my time, so I will just ignore them and I request others to do so as well.

Bobby, you might be right, so I am trying it out now. When I don't compliment her on her cooking, she repeatedly asks how the food turned out and if I liked it. In her side of the family, they slather one another with a lot of compliments and in many times they are fake and they just say it. 

My wife is a people pleaser. She will say and do things to please others because at some level she wants them to like her and wants their validation. Of course, I am not included in the club. My guess is because she thinks I am already pleased (conquered) and she doesn't have to do anything more. Yes, she does a lot for me, just like I do a lot for her, but she never goes above and beyond in the way I would like it. She gets me fruit and water and applies sunscreen on me, when I go out, packs my lunch and other stuff. That is motherly but that does not make me happy. I want my wife to behave like a wife/girlfriend, not like my mother. There's never an impromptu hug or a kiss and when I do it in public, there is a "people are looking" complaint.

I have stopped complimenting her and yesterday she was asking me how she looked in a certain skirt. I just absent mindedly said good without focusing on her. I have stopped complimenting her cooking. I think it is time she did some things for me, if she expects those for herself.

After having kids, she has shut off her woman/girl hood and turned on her motherhood mode. And she expects me to be thrilled about it because she is doing this for "my" kids (they are our kids). As you say, I may be coming across as needy and she may be using this as a manipulation tool. I think she already uses sex as a carrot though not explicitly. She's made it so hard to get that I am thinking about it every evening as maybe this is the night?

The only way to get her to think about me is if I don't give her what she thinks is important. Of course, I won't cut off my paycheck but I will stop giving her my time. I'm planning on spending my evenings focusing more on my career and learning new things that can help me get a better job and make myself happier and maybe improve my self-confidence because that has been dented lately. I've stopped calling her from work or sharing my work problems because she goes into the "you seem to have a lot of problems" mode. This was when she was a stay at home mom. She has been working for almost a year and has had a busy job but a good healthy one and a great boss so she thinks that work is easy to manage. Wait till she gets a @$%@##@ for a boss. That is when I will see how she deals with it.


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## Wolf1974

One of the things I have learned here is yes apparently you can compliment a woman too much. Had never been on my radar before as I believe people deserve praise for effort no matter if it's just looking good or working hard. This notion that complimenting too much make you seem like a doormat is hard for me to comprehend. It seems to be a balancing act between praise and constant praise.m I'm still trying to figure out for me where that line is


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## nirvana

Mostlycontent said:


> To answer your primary question, yes, I believe you can compliment too much.
> 
> My wife is not one to toss around compliments much either but she does throw me the occasional bone. Some people aren't wired in that way, which is somewhat inconsiderate if you ask me.
> 
> I am more verbal in my appreciation for some of the things my wife does. Over the years though, I have considerably reduced the number of compliments or accolades that I use.
> 
> Her primary love language is "acts of service" so I don't think she notices all that much. Although I will say that her compliments and affection toward me has picked up since I cut way down. It's an interesting dynamic for sure.


I am beginning to think so as well. In fact my mother noticed this a long time ago and has suggested that I compliment my wife a bit less. I didn't think much of it but maybe my mother was right and had gotten some woman-signals that I had not. 

I think I am guilty of making myself too easy to please, too non-mysterious, too open with my thoughts. She never or very rarely asks me how my day went like women are stereotyped most likely because I am discussing it anyway. Life is all about demand and supply and I feel that I have "supplied" too much so there is not much demand. Plain human psychology.

Her whole life goal seems to be to do what is good for the kids. Everything is seen from that prism. Everything. All collateral damage is worth it for this goal. At this point, I am preparing myself to go without sex for weeks/months. The last time was 15 days ago and she doesn't seem to mind. What she does mind is if I come home, get on the computer and don't spend time with the kids and her (?). She gets angry if I am silent at home. At least we are not fighting lately, so that is a good thing.


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## Yeswecan

nirvana said:


> I have been getting this feeling for the past few months. That my compliments to my wife have less and less "value". My wife is in her late 30s and takes good care of herself (and us) and looks beautiful and hot. However, I also think she is LD and is too much into the kids and not into me, after we had kids. At times I feel that I am just a paycheck for her in order to pay for her life projects (our kids). Many husbands feel this way and are guilted into being okay with this in today's messed up feminist society.
> 
> Anyway, the reason the thread is I feel that I may have given her too many compliments over the years, so from the law of demand and supply, the value of my compliments have gone down. I tell her she looks beautiful when she dresses up and she has a "ok whatever" expression even when she says thank you. She is a great cook and when I saw that something she's made is awesome, she says the equivalent of "oh?" absent mindedly as if she wasn't really listening. Every morning as I come downstairs from bed, I come and hug her from the back and feel up her waist and hips (god I love that) and then her butt. I do that in bed before we fall asleep too.
> 
> Since I am not happy with how she now responds, I have put a stop to all of this for the past 3 days. No compliments on looks or cooking. No touching. I think she has to do her part to keep the fire alive. She very very rarely compliments me and often has a littany of complaints that I did not do this or that, so if there is so much negativity, I don't feel like saying anything nice about her. I don't want to say bad things about her, so I will stop the nice things.
> 
> Let's see if she misses it. If not, then I will have my answer.


I don't think there are too many compliments. However, some start to feel these are empty compliments. I have heard some say, "You only say that because you are my H and supposed to say those things." Then there are those that just totally gloss over the compliments and do not register any of it. Why? Because mentally they are somewhere else. Kids, work, planning a party/vacation and the like. No more than a roommate situation. You know, finance and logistics guy. 

Perhaps your W needs are service in nature and not complimentary. Compliments are nice but they don't clean the dishes. :smile2:


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## nirvana

Wolf1974 said:


> One of the things I have learned here is yes apparently you can compliment a woman too much. Had never been on my radar before as I believe people deserve praise for effort no matter if it's just looking good or working hard. This notion that complimenting too much make you seem like a doormat is hard for me to comprehend. It seems to be a balancing act between praise and constant praise.m I'm still trying to figure out for me where that line is


I am very honest with the people close to me like my wife and kids and I don't like to bs them just to get them to like me more. My son at 11 appreciated this and wrote that for me in a card that he made for me for Fathers Day. "you are always honest with me".  My Father in law is the opposite, he will lie to you just so that you like him because he does not want to tell you anything unpleasant but true. My wife has only recently seen her dad's true nature, and for years she thought what a wonderful man he is.

Anyway, I agree with you. My compliments are always genuine and I think that when someone does something awesome, the least one can do is give a compliment. But people use this as a manipulation lever which is hard to comprehend. 

For now, I have shut off the praise faucet completely even when when she deserves it, and if I see an improvement, I will turn it on slightly. My wife LOVES praise and fishes for it all the time. This trait she inherits from her father. Yesterday my son told us that someone at his school thought she was his older sister, and my wife was euphoric. She does look very young. Demand and supply game again. This detox will take months before it begins to work (if it does) and a few weeks before she begins to notice. In any case, I have to try it. I have not physically touched her in about 4 days. She doesn't seem to have missed it but let's see how long if at all.


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## nirvana

Yeswecan said:


> I don't think there are too many compliments. However, some start to feel these are empty compliments. I have heard some say, "You only say that because you are my H and supposed to say those things." Then there are those that just totally gloss over the compliments and do not register any of it. Why? Because mentally they are somewhere else. Kids, work, planning a party/vacation and the like. No more than a roommate situation. You know, finance and logistics guy.
> 
> Perhaps your W needs are service in nature and not complimentary. Compliments are nice but they don't clean the dishes. :smile2:


I agree with you, but then why does she get so happy when others compliment her? I think my compliments have become too familiar. There is a saying in India translates to "the chicken curry made at home feels like lentil soup" which means anything good you get at home has no value.
Yes, she seems to be mentally somewhere else all the time because she takes on too much even when it is not necessary just because she wants to praise herself later about how much she does. Sometimes it seems very narcissistic but I just ignore it rather than contest it and get her mad. 

I do my part in the house like dish washing, lawn, finances, bill paying, cleaning up, some grocery etc etc. But many women like to flatter themselves that they do "everything" which is highly insulting.


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## FeministInPink

@nirvana -- have you (and perhaps your wife) read about the five love languages? It sounds like you and your wife might be a little mismatched when it comes to communicating with one another, and as a result you are clearly not getting some of your needs met. 

It sounds to me like words of affirmation and (probably) physical touch are your two primary languages, since you compliment her so much and you've noted how little she compliments you--both her lack of reciprocal compliments and her lack of response clearly bothers you. From what you say, I don't think that words of affirmation are her love language; she appreciates them, but may not attach the same meaning to them as you do.

When you say that she's negative and complains all the time, what is it that she complains about? What is it that she thinks you're NOT doing?


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## coffee4me

nirvana said:


> But people use this as a manipulation lever which is hard to comprehend.
> 
> For now, I have shut off the praise faucet completely even when when she deserves it, and if I see an improvement, I will turn it on again.
> 
> Demand and supply game again.
> 
> This detox will take months before it begins to work In any case, I have to try it. I have not physically touched her in about 4 days.


Aren't you using the compliments as a manipulation lever? Is there a reason why you decided to play this game with her instead of directly tell her the problem? 

Honestly, if I was your wife and you pulled back your affection and acknowledgment of my contributions to the family; I wouldn't automatically "know" that my response to that was supposed to be to praise you and value you more. How in the world is she supposed to know that is the desired response?


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## Yeswecan

nirvana said:


> I agree with you, *but then why does she get so happy when others compliment her?* I think my compliments have become too familiar. There is a saying in India translates to "the chicken curry made at home feels like lentil soup" which means anything good you get at home has no value.
> Yes, she seems to be mentally somewhere else all the time because she takes on too much even when it is not necessary just because she wants to praise herself later about how much she does. Sometimes it seems very narcissistic but I just ignore it rather than contest it and get her mad.
> 
> I do my part in the house like dish washing, lawn, finances, bill paying, cleaning up, some grocery etc etc. But many women like to flatter themselves that they do "everything" which is highly insulting.



Validation(I made your sentence bold that I'm referring too.) She feels validated when other say it. I refer back to the, "You are supposed to say those things you are my husband." Some folks have that thought process. In most case completely wrong. In other not. Coming from someone else apparently means more to your W if I were to make an educated guess.


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## nirvana

Yeswecan said:


> Validation(I made your sentence bold that I'm referring too.) She feels validated when other say it. I refer back to the, "You are supposed to say those things you are my husband." Some folks have that thought process. In most case completely wrong. In other not. Coming from someone else apparently means more to your W if I were to make an educated guess.


I agree with you. 
As a solution, what I am thinking now may be a way out of this to some extent. There will always be a "you are my husband so blaaah" feeling to it, but maybe I should raise the bar for my compliments a bit and not make them too free and easy. She suffers from some low esteem issues so I try to prop her up when she feels low but then I feel that instead of sticking it to the people who make her feel low (her weasely dad, her sister, and some toxic friends), she sticks it to ME which I find very surprising. Why would someone try to hurt someone who is 100% on your side? The only answer is she craves validation from others but not from me.

One time we were to meet at a friends house for lunch and she was to bake a cake. Instead of 1, she bakes 2 so she could get some compliments from them. I told her not to go overboard because it took her time to bake it and she was grumbling about it. Then she goes to the party and the host took out one and didn't really care that she made 2. She was unhappy and was grumbling about that on the way back. I reminded her of what I had told her earlier. 

One time her ex coworkers said we should all meet for dinner and one said let's meet at her place. But my wife, the eternal people pleaser said no no! Let's meet at MY place! The other ladies said sure and my wife spent the entire weekend cleaning and cooking and getting angry at me because I as "not helping". I asked her why she volunteered and she had no answer.


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## nirvana

coffee4me said:


> Aren't you using the compliments as a manipulation lever? Is there a reason why you decided to play this game with her instead of directly tell her the problem?
> 
> Honestly, if I was your wife and you pulled back your affection and acknowledgment of my contributions to the family; I wouldn't automatically "know" that my response to that was supposed to be to praise you and value you more. How in the world is she supposed to know that is the desired response?


I might be now with this pulling back, granted.
But when I give her compliments, I am not manipulating her at all. My compliments are only when she does something awesome which she does. 
Besides, I am tired of her "meh" response, so I need to keep my dignity as well. I've told her the problem many times, but she keeps complaining that she is tired, how she cannot rest for a moment voluntarily (she is praising herself here) etc etc. I tell her she isn't Obama that the country depends on her, but she doesn't listen. So I let her do what she wants. If she wants to overwork herself, then go do so. I am not going to listen to her whining later on.


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## coffee4me

nirvana said:


> I've told her the problem many times, but she keeps complaining that she is tired, how she cannot rest for a moment voluntarily (she is praising herself here) etc etc. I tell her she isn't Obama that the country depends on her, but she doesn't listen. So I let her do what she wants.


You said in another thread that you tell her and show her that she is inefficient in household chores. More if a "whatever you can do I can do better" mentality. Here your comment about Obama is condescending and belittling basically you are telling her she is unimportant. 

Do you think that the conflicting attitudes you display. Being condescending and complimenting her are why she has meh.. Response to you?

BTW: if you attempting to manipulate me by withholding compliments it would have the opposite effect of what you are looking for. I would not be drawn to you wanting to lavish you with affection to gain your approval. I'd tell you to go pound sand. Don't be surprised if your wife draws away from you and resents you even more.


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## RandomDude

Yes, you've over-complimented her. I hate it personally, in fact it makes me feel uncomfortable to recieve too much praise. Like someone shoved an air hose into my mouth and started pumping my head with air so that I'll explode. But that's just me, some people like the worship I don't.

Either way, she's not reacting favorably to it, so stop it.


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## nirvana

coffee4me said:


> You said in another thread that you tell her and show her that she is inefficient in household chores. More if a "whatever you can do I can do better" mentality. Here your comment about Obama is condescending and belittling basically you are telling her she is unimportant.
> 
> Do you think that the conflicting attitudes you display. Being condescending and complimenting her are why she has meh.. Response to you?
> 
> BTW: if you attempting to manipulate me by withholding compliments it would have the opposite effect of what you are looking for. I would not be drawn to you wanting to lavish you with affection to gain your approval. I'd tell you to go pound sand. Don't be surprised if your wife draws away from you and resents you even more.


It's hard to convey subtle things over a forum since I cannot go into each detail in a short post. What does "inefficient" mean? She is a great cook and manages all the cooking of the house outside of when I take the family out. I help out in a little way but she does the lion's share. But she leaves the kitchen in a mess when she is done and then grumbles about how busy she is. I do the dishes nowadays and pack the leftover food after dinner and put it all in the fridge. When I do things, I try to do it completely and definitely don't blame others for the remaining work.

As for the Obama comment, the way you reacted is an example of how one can take a good thing and turn it into a bad one. My wife is always hyper and in a "OMG I have so much to do!" mode. This adds to her stress and she gives me dirty looks that I don't stress out like she does (she has taken it to mean that I don't have much to do or am lazy). For her, going OMG OMG and stressing out shows that she works a lot. On weekends, she wakes up at 6:30am just because her eyes opened. Then she complains that she has not slept enough. So I told her to lay in bed for another 45 mins and she will feel better. There is no need to rush downstairs at 6:30 on Sunday. If she didn't do it, the world would not come to an end, In other words, there is no benefit, only a loss from doing so. As a light hearted comment and to illustrate my point, I said that she was not Obama that she needs to be working so hard even on weekends. The point I was making was that she need to take it easy and relax a bit. How is that a bad thing? Focus on the real issue instead of little things which divert from the real problem.

If she resents me more, then she has to think of what she has and if she wants to lose it. Two can play the game. She has done so much to build resentment in me, so I think it is okay to chance this.


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## nirvana

FeministInPink said:


> @nirvana -- have you (and perhaps your wife) read about the five love languages? It sounds like you and your wife might be a little mismatched when it comes to communicating with one another, and as a result you are clearly not getting some of your needs met.
> 
> It sounds to me like words of affirmation and (probably) physical touch are your two primary languages, since you compliment her so much and you've noted how little she compliments you--both her lack of reciprocal compliments and her lack of response clearly bothers you. From what you say, I don't think that words of affirmation are her love language; she appreciates them, but may not attach the same meaning to them as you do.
> 
> When you say that she's negative and complains all the time, what is it that she complains about? What is it that she thinks you're NOT doing?


Unfortunately i haven't.
I had downloaded it, and read a few pages, but life got in the way. I am in the midst of a job search for a better gig, so that's keeping me busy. I need to make this a priority.

I think you are right in this post. my languages are affirmation and physical touch. I like to hug and cuddle and kiss. I do that with my daughter and son. My wife doesn't seem to be that type, she calls herself "practical". Whatever that means. That said, I don't know what the solution is if there is one. I need to read the book, but if a couple has different languages, then it seems that one is stuck forever.

She complains about many things. She is a people-pleaser and overdoes many things and I don't buy that line of thought. I think life is not all about working all the time, one needs to relax and read a book, watch a movie, have a nice walk etc. She sees me doing this and gets angry. Her anger is that she is working and I am "enjoying". But the thing is she is the one who decided to do that work in the first place. She could have easily not done it. She forces it on herself because she can tell me how much she works and grab credit. 

She complains that I don't spend enough time with the kids. There is never enough time anyway. Yes, I wish I had time like a SAHM to do lots of things with the kids, but I had to go out and earn a living for us. I have this thing that I need to boost my career because I feel I am underachieving so I am studying a lot of the time. 

In summary, she complains that she has to do "everything".


----------



## BetrayedDad

1) Hot wife. 

2) Narcissistic.

3) People pleaser.

4) Not affectionate.

5) Doesn't initiate sex.

6) Doesn't appreciate compliments.


Not good my friend. Your wife is a time bomb. Your India analogy is spot on. It's only a matter of time before someone outside the home offers her some Chicken Curry and it's going to be incredibly tempting because its NOT YOURS.

You need to level the sex rank disparity NOW between the two of you. Hit the gym 3-4 times a week minimum. Heavy weights, no cardio BS. Groom yourself, dress very well even at home. Extra friendly to other ladies. Start building some value. She needs to think she has a CATCH cause in her mind you're just boring a$$ Lentil soup.


----------



## EVG39

Yes you can over compliment for sure. And if can come off as a patronizing. So your instincts are right on this point. But let me just add a caveat. Women seldom can be over complimented by a man they are really attracted to. They are happy for any attention form him. However if you have been over complimenting then it may be part ofan overall pattern that she perceives as unattractive. There is a great sticky in the men's clubhouse I believe called lowering the thermostat. It might be helpful to you, might not. But it's something you can try right now on your own to see if has any effect not just on this issue but the whole LD issue as well. Might be worth a shot.


----------



## nirvana

BetrayedDad said:


> 1) Hot wife.
> 
> 2) Narcissistic.
> 
> 3) People pleaser.
> 
> 4) Not affectionate.
> 
> 5) Doesn't initiate sex.
> 
> 6) Doesn't appreciate compliments.
> 
> 
> Not good my friend. Your wife is a time bomb. Your India analogy is spot on. It's only a matter of time before someone outside the home offers her some Chicken Curry and it's going to be incredibly tempting because its NOT YOURS.
> 
> You need to level the sex rank disparity NOW between the two of you. Hit the gym 3-4 times a week minimum. Heavy weights, no cardio BS. Groom yourself, dress very well even at home. Extra friendly to other ladies. Start building some value. She needs to think she has a CATCH cause in her mind you're just boring a$$ Lentil soup.



Good points, even though it is hard to hear. Thanks a lot.
I don't have a paunch like most Indian guys my age and have all my hair and am tall but I need to get more muscular.
Also need to focus more on grooming. At parties I have seen the guys who are extra friendly to the other ladies score well in terms of admiration so that is a very good point.
I need to also focus on my career and get the certain title that I should be at. This is a big thing in the Indian community and the women gloat about it a lot among themselves.


----------



## nirvana

EVG39 said:


> Yes you can over compliment for sure. And if can come off as a patronizing. So your instincts are right on this point. But let me just add a caveat. Women seldom can be over complimented by a man they are really attracted to. They are happy for any attention form him. However if you have been over complimenting then it may be part ofan overall pattern that she perceives as unattractive. There is a great sticky in the men's clubhouse I believe called lowering the thermostat. It might be helpful to you, might not. But it's something you can try right now on your own to see if has any effect not just on this issue but the whole LD issue as well. Might be worth a shot.


Great insight and thank you.
Fully agree that women seldom can be over complimented by a man they are attracted to. Very true.
I'll take a look at the sticky.


----------



## coffee4me

nirvana said:


> If she resents me more, then she has to think of what she has and if she wants to lose it. Two can play the game. She has done so much to build resentment in me, so I think it is okay to chance this.


The problem is she doesn't know you are playing a game with her. You are purposely treating her differently expecting a certain reaction. 

If she resents you more perhaps you should think about what you have and what you are willing to lose. You are the one using manipulation tactics not her. If it backfires and she resents you more that's your fault you purposely treated her differently. If you are willing to chance resentment by your actions that's your choice but resentment is a huge hurdle in a marriage. It multiples, magnifies and compounds. Why anyone would purposely play games to risk additional resentment is beyond me.


----------



## nirvana

EVG39 said:


> Yes you can over compliment for sure. And if can come off as a patronizing. So your instincts are right on this point. But let me just add a caveat. Women seldom can be over complimented by a man they are really attracted to. They are happy for any attention form him. However if you have been over complimenting then it may be part ofan overall pattern that she perceives as unattractive. There is a great sticky in the men's clubhouse I believe called lowering the thermostat. It might be helpful to you, might not. But it's something you can try right now on your own to see if has any effect not just on this issue but the whole LD issue as well. Might be worth a shot.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html

Found the thread and read the top post... unfortunately I see a lot of things there that I do as the hot/warm partner. 
I will need to ease off on the "love" until I see some reciprocation. Otherwise I will keep cheapening myself in her eyes and my own as well.

Thanks again for pointing me to it. Eye opening.
When we got married, she moved to my city and was at home during the day all alone. So I would call her from work once or twice just so she didn't feel lonely. That habit continued for many years. I was shocked later to discover that she began to view it as "aren't you busy at work?". Wow. I could not believe it. So I slowly reduced my calling and now I don't call at all during the day unless it is important. I didn't want to stop it abruptly because she would wonder why and that would cause more problems. Now she calls me, usually to talk about something but sometimes just to talk on the way back from work.

When we fight, she knows that I will make up in a day or two. So she doesn't try to make up on her own even if she is wrong. She'd rather wait it out and "win". Oh well.


----------



## nirvana

coffee4me said:


> The problem is she doesn't know you are playing a game with her. You are purposely treating her differently expecting a certain reaction.
> 
> If she resents you more perhaps you should think about what you have and what you are willing to lose. You are the one using manipulation tactics not her. If it backfires and she resents you more that's your fault you purposely treated her differently. If you are willing to chance resentment by your actions that's your choice but resentment is a huge hurdle in a marriage. It multiples, magnifies and compounds. Why anyone would purposely play games to risk additional resentment is beyond me.


You are just saying that I am wrong in what I have to do.
Do you have any suggestions on what I should do?
Why is this manipulation? I am just holding back on the compliments. If this is manipulation, then she has been doing this to me for ages.

Remember that I love my wife and kids a lot and I have zero interest in playing games or in manipulation. But I will not be manipulated myself though she has done this with me. She grew up with a master manipulator as a dad.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Have you ever considered simply saying to her, I don't feel like you appreciate me very much or demonstrate love?


----------



## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> Have you ever considered simply saying to her, I don't feel like you appreciate me very much or demonstrate love?


Yes. And her response always is "What about me? Do you appreciate me?? I am working all the time".

And then I have to go into the 100s of times when I have complimented her and said thank you, etc etc. Then she will respond with "Its actions also, not just words". Then that devolves into a discussion of what she does versus what I do for the family and then sometimes an argument. And she always thinks she does everything and I do nothing. Or somewhere around there.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Your wife sounds like a self absorbed, entitled beotch.


----------



## coffee4me

nirvana said:


> You are just saying that I am wrong in what I have to do.
> Do you have any suggestions on what I should do?
> Why is this manipulation? I am just holding back on the compliments. If this is manipulation, then she has been doing this to me for ages.
> 
> Remember that I love my wife and kids a lot and I have zero interest in playing games or in manipulation. But I will not be manipulated myself though she has done this with me. She grew up with a master manipulator as a dad.


You are saying she purposely manipulates you. In what way? 

I'm not saying you are wrong or right in withholding compliments. I'm saying that you cannot predict you will get a desirable response from doing that, you may very well get an undesirable response. 

Perhaps you do not see it as manipulation or game playing but I do. That is because like your wife I describe myself as practical. If you have an issue with me or the relationship it's best to effectively communicate the issue. Not play withholding games and expect me to have a desired response when I'm clueless as to what it is you desire. 

Why can't you just sit her down in a room without distraction and tell her that you do not feel appreciated. Give specific examples. She will most likely tell you the same as it does not sound like she feels appreciated either. Ask her for examples. That's my suggestion.


----------



## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> Your wife sounds like a self absorbed, entitled beotch.


Well, maybe but I am still married to her and plan to as far as I can see. 
I think I am guilty of causing some of the behaviors in her like being okay with her being SAHM for 10 years when she should have been working 1-2 years after having kids like many others did. Instead she got friendly with some toxic friends who made her feel bad about herself even when she has a lot.


----------



## nirvana

coffee4me said:


> You are saying she purposely manipulates you. In what way?
> 
> I'm not saying you are wrong or right in withholding compliments. I'm saying that you cannot predict you will get a desirable response from doing that, you may very well get an undesirable response.
> 
> Perhaps you do not see it as manipulation or game playing but I do. That is because like your wife I describe myself as practical. If you have an issue with me or the relationship it's best to effectively communicate the issue. Not play withholding games and expect me to have a desired response when I'm clueless as to what it is you desire.
> 
> Why can't you just sit her down in a room without distraction and tell her that you do not feel appreciated. Give specific examples. She will most likely tell you the same as it does not sound like she feels appreciated either. Ask her for examples. That's my suggestion.


She's said that if I spend "more" time with the kids, it will make her happy and she will make me happy. The problem is "more" cannot be quantified and I can never reach it. And I might make her happy with time spent, but when bed time arrives, she will get into her grumpy "stay away" mood again. Like yesterday I told my son I will spend an hour just with yout to do something you like for Father's Day. He chose tennis so I played with him. Then I did the same for my daughter and played some board games with her and gave her a bath etc. Night time, and my wife comes by and turns her back to me and dozes off.

It's possible. But I cannot think of anything else to do and I feel like a fool complimenting her while she goes "umm hmm" which conveys to me "yes, I know I am awesome. Say something else". So instead of doing something that does not work, maybe I need to shake things up.

Communicating my problem has not worked. Maybe it has hurt me because she knows my "weakness" and can use that to control me. 

Like I said in a previous post, talking to her about this does not work. She turns my problem into something about herself and goes "and what about me??". Then we end up talking about her complaints about how busy she is, how she woke up at 6am and then did this and then that and had to commute for 30 mins etc etc. In the end she will want me to "spend more time with the kids". If I had more time up my behind, I would have surely taken it out. I am trying to do things here for our long term benefit bit she just does not get it or care. If I do what she wants, then she will cry about something else. A month ago she whined that she wanted a bicycle and big bad me didn't get her one. So I did, and she rode it ONCE and its sitting in the garage as I had predicted. If I ask her, the excuses will begin to flow.

This is not an easy situation unfortunately.


----------



## RandomDude

So she's arrogant, entitled, self-centered... and you've been complimenting such a woman? 

Hell I wouldn't be stopping just the compliments but that's just me.


----------



## coffee4me

She has an issue with how much time you spend with your kids and you have a reason as if she does not have a valid point. 

You have an issue with her not acknowledging your compliments and she has a reason as if you do not have a valid point. 

There's no real communication people are talking and nobody is listening and from the way you speak about your wife. There maybe compliments but it doesn't come across as genuine appreciation. Is there a way instead of bringing up the issues you can both agree to work on communication? 


On a side note: My father had a full time career, he excelled at and went to night school for 12 years of my childhood earning 2 degrees. He always spent time with us and he never used his career objectives as a reason for not being an active present part of our lives. I had no idea how rare that was but I can tell you I admire the hell out of him.


----------



## Morcoll

Sounds like OP feels taken for granted and is really starting to resent it. 

I have to say that looking back, this was easily the most miserable thing about my marriage. I am not saying I am amazing or wonderful and I am far from perfect but I was willing to go out of my way for her and she wasn't. And even worse, it got to the point where resentment built up so much that when I did go out of my way to do nice things for her, it was no longer unconditional and became less than genuine. Seems like that is what is going on here with OP. He resents her and has been using compliments and expecting something for them (or whatever else he may be doing for her) without realizing, or admitting it. 

My marriage ended in divorce, and I am ok with that bc I would not (and do not) want my 'hot wife' back-- at all. 

But I am glad I took the time to learn how my behavior contributed. I think it will take a lot more than withholding compliments to improve the situation here. Corey Wayne's book, No More Mr Nice Guy, etc. The books that teach about relationship dynamics and creating attraction, may be in order.


----------



## jb02157

Holland said:


> Have you ever looked at yourself and asked what you have done to help create the misery you seem to live in? You often tell us how wonderful you are and how awful your wife is, maybe she doesn't think you are so wonderful and she is sick of feeling like you think she is awful.
> 
> 
> 
> This quote just screams immature and entitled and I'm not talking about your wife.


No this is not immature and entitiled, it's painfully honest. Women do take advantage of their husbands this way and DO see them as a paycheck for their life projects. I've had to put up with this myself for years....although my wife isn't hot but very overweight.


----------



## nirvana

RandomDude said:


> So she's arrogant, entitled, self-centered... and you've been complimenting such a woman?
> 
> Hell I wouldn't be stopping just the compliments but that's just me.


She has many good qualities, and I compliment those. She is very nice when she is in the mood. Maybe she has a hormonal problem that causes the mood swings. If she keeps the goods and improves on the bads, I think our relationship will become heavenly.


----------



## NobodySpecial

I cannot remember why you discounted the idea of counseling in previous posts.


----------



## Morcoll

Problem is that every thing the OP wants to do about it is to get back at her, or yes, manipulate her in some way. 

Withholding comments-- just a way of holding back or punishing her

Spending time on father's day with the kids-- not so much because you want to ( I know you will say you do, so ill grant you that but be HONEST); mostly to get sex

Going into another room when you get home to isolate yourself-- this is basically pouting and hoping she will notice and beg you to come back and hang out with her

And when accused of manipulation-- "she did it first". 

Reminds me of my 4 and 7 year old kids. 

How about finding something you like, a passion of yours, and getting into it because you LOVE it? Exercise, sleep well, take care of yourself and become a HAPPY, ATTRACTIVE man. If she starts asking questions, be upbeat and happy, but do not force yourself on her and do not do anything to get sex, do it for yourself.


----------



## FeministInPink

nirvana said:


> Unfortunately i haven't.
> I had downloaded it, and read a few pages, but life got in the way. I am in the midst of a job search for a better gig, so that's keeping me busy. I need to make this a priority.
> 
> I think you are right in this post. my languages are affirmation and physical touch. I like to hug and cuddle and kiss. I do that with my daughter and son. My wife doesn't seem to be that type, she calls herself "practical". Whatever that means. That said, I don't know what the solution is if there is one. I need to read the book, but if a couple has different languages, then it seems that one is stuck forever.
> 
> She complains about many things. She is a people-pleaser and overdoes many things and I don't buy that line of thought. I think life is not all about working all the time, one needs to relax and read a book, watch a movie, have a nice walk etc. She sees me doing this and gets angry. Her anger is that she is working and I am "enjoying". But the thing is she is the one who decided to do that work in the first place. She could have easily not done it. She forces it on herself because she can tell me how much she works and grab credit.
> 
> She complains that I don't spend enough time with the kids. There is never enough time anyway. Yes, I wish I had time like a SAHM to do lots of things with the kids, but I had to go out and earn a living for us. I have this thing that I need to boost my career because I feel I am underachieving so I am studying a lot of the time.
> 
> In summary, she complains that she has to do "everything".


Wow, nirvana, if I didn't know better, I'd think that you and your wife were my dad and mom. I have no good advice, then. I've been watching them go around for years, and nothing ever changes. 

My mom is just like your wife. She volunteers for everything, especially at her church. And she runs herself ragged, by doing things like single-handedly running the Spaghetti Dinner fundraiser at church, or doing Christmas dinner at my grandparents' house for all her siblings and their kids (who are all notorious picky eaters). She says, "If I don't do it, who will?" And I tell her, "Maybe nobody. If other people actually care about this, let them sign up and do it. If nobody signs up, then it doesn't happen." But that is unacceptable to her. This Christmas dinner thing... my grandmother is too old to cook for everyone (like 20+ ppl at this point), and my mom is making all these different dishes (because X is a vegetarian, Y won't eat turkey but Z won't eat ham, A won't eat dairy but wants broccoli and everyone else wants cheese on the broccoli, B will only eat creamed corn, etc etc). I said to her this past year, "Why are you doing all this? This is ridiculous. Just ask everybody to bring one dish and be done with it." And she says, well so-and-so only like this the way I make it, and X and Z will fight over who gets to do this, etc, etc, and so nothing would ever really get done if she wasn't doing it. And I said, "MOM. If they don't care enough to contribute, then they don't care enough for you to go through all this. Fvck them and order pizza. If they want a big Christmas dinner, then they can put in an equal contribution to make it happen." And she says, "Well, X is a vegetarian, Y won't eat turkey but Z won't eat ham, A won't eat dairy..." So I say, "Then get a whole bunch of different subs with condiments on the side and let people dress their own sandwiches. Or get deli platters, and people can make their own sandwiches." And she protests, "They will all be so upset, and I'll never hear the end of it," shoots down every suggestion that I make. 

What it comes down to, and I think some of the same may apply to your wife, is that she cares obsessively about these family and church "traditions" and she is mad that no one else cares as much as she does, or appreciates the amount of work she puts in, and so she tries to make them care. And she is completely resistant to any type of change. In her church, the older women who used to maintain some of these older traditions have either passed away or are too old/infirm to do them anymore; most of the women of my mother's generation either aren't interested, or are too busy dealing with their ailing parents and young grandchildren to participate; the women of my generation are too busy with careers and/or young children, or simply aren't invested in the traditions. The church isn't the social focal point that it once was in our society. I think all of this reminds my mother of her mortality, that her parents won't be around much longer, and that after they pass, she will be next (hopefully not for at least a good long while). I think this is my mother's way of try to exert some type of control in a situation where she feels very little control (the passage of time and things changing), because she is scared. Scared of change, of dying, of losing her parents. 

My mom will nag my dad for not helping her or not doing his fair share of the work--mind you, stuff he never volunteered for himself. Stuff she volunteered for, and which she demands that he helps with. My dad has given up, he does the bare minimum and then goes off and does his own thing, and tunes her out. Both of his parents have already passed (my grandfather in 2000, my grandmother in 2004), and his outlook on like completely changed after my grandmother passed (and after he had a big health scare a few yrs later). He's not going to waste his time clinging to the past and obsessing over stuff that my mom does. He started exercising and eating better. He runs 5ks all the time (at 64!), and he goes out and does karaoke, and he enjoys his life. He's much happier in recent years than I remember him before my grandparents passed. He let my mom run the show for years, and now he's finally doing what he wants, and she's giving him sh!t for it.

Sorry, this isn't my thread, it's your thread. But I typed all that out, so I'm gonna post it anyway. I guess my point is... your wife is who she is. She's not going to change, and you can't make her. It's up to you how that affects YOU and how you live YOUR life. I hope you two can both read the Love Languages book and work through some of these issues, and I hope you can both accept one another for who you are.


----------



## nirvana

Morcoll said:


> Problem is that every thing the OP wants to do about it is to get back at her, or yes, manipulate her in some way.
> 
> Withholding comments-- just a way of holding back or punishing her
> 
> Spending time on father's day with the kids-- not so much because you want to ( I know you will say you do, so ill grant you that but be HONEST); mostly to get sex
> 
> Going into another room when you get home to isolate yourself-- this is basically pouting and hoping she will notice and beg you to come back and hang out with her
> 
> And when accused of manipulation-- "she did it first".
> 
> Reminds me of my 4 and 7 year old kids.
> 
> How about finding something you like, a passion of yours, and getting into it because you LOVE it? Exercise, sleep well, take care of yourself and become a HAPPY, ATTRACTIVE man. If she starts asking questions, be upbeat and happy, but do not force yourself on her and do not do anything to get sex, do it for yourself.



Lots of erroneous assumptions at the top of this post.

I first need to fix my career. I've been conservative and not taken risks because we were single income and the recession. Once that gets on track that I am happy with, I will be happy. Maybe things will fall into place after that.


----------



## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> I cannot remember why you discounted the idea of counseling in previous posts.


Well, counseling has a bad connotation in Indian circles. I know that is not right but that is the way it is. I would have to convince her and that is not going to be easy. But I guess I have to convince myself first.


----------



## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> Well, counseling has a bad connotation in Indian circles. I know that is not right but that is the way it is. I would have to convince her and that is not going to be easy. But I guess I have to convince myself first.


So much BS is done in the name of appearances. Be a Real Man and deal with the issues, not what things look like! Go yourself.


----------



## nirvana

jb02157 said:


> No this is not immature and entitiled, it's painfully honest. Women do take advantage of their husbands this way and DO see them as a paycheck for their life projects. I've had to put up with this myself for years....although my wife isn't hot but very overweight.


This is true and they justify it because it does seem like a good cause. How can anyone say that spending lots of time with the kids is a bad thing? No one.
But what is unsaid is these women spend no time with the husband and spend all time worrying about kids. They have forgotten what it is to be just a woman. And if you are unhappy, they will blame YOU for being such a bad person to steal their time from their kids. Crazy logic.

Maybe the only way around this is for men to do their own thing and keep themselves happy without the wives. Some years ago, ironically on my wife's urging, I took up a sport. I would play in a league for 4 hours each Saturday in the summer. That would get her mad when I got back - because I was doing something that did not involve her. But if I am at home, she only wants to do things that involves the kids.


----------



## MEM2020

FIP,
What a beautiful and insightful post. 





FeministInPink said:


> Wow, nirvana, if I didn't know better, I'd think that you and your wife were my dad and mom. I have no good advice, then. I've been watching them go around for years, and nothing ever changes.
> 
> My mom is just like your wife. She volunteers for everything, especially at her church. And she runs herself ragged, by doing things like single-handedly running the Spaghetti Dinner fundraiser at church, or doing Christmas dinner at my grandparents' house for all her siblings and their kids (who are all notorious picky eaters). She says, "If I don't do it, who will?" And I tell her, "Maybe nobody. If other people actually care about this, let them sign up and do it. If nobody signs up, then it doesn't happen." But that is unacceptable to her. This Christmas dinner thing... my grandmother is too old to cook for everyone (like 20+ ppl at this point), and my mom is making all these different dishes (because X is a vegetarian, Y won't eat turkey but Z won't eat ham, A won't eat dairy but wants broccoli and everyone else wants cheese on the broccoli, B will only eat creamed corn, etc etc). I said to her this past year, "Why are you doing all this? This is ridiculous. Just ask everybody to bring one dish and be done with it." And she says, well so-and-so only like this the way I make it, and X and Z will fight over who gets to do this, etc, etc, and so nothing would ever really get done if she wasn't doing it. And I said, "MOM. If they don't care enough to contribute, then they don't care enough for you to go through all this. Fvck them and order pizza. If they want a big Christmas dinner, then they can put in an equal contribution to make it happen." And she says, "Well, X is a vegetarian, Y won't eat turkey but Z won't eat ham, A won't eat dairy..." So I say, "Then get a whole bunch of different subs with condiments on the side and let people dress their own sandwiches. Or get deli platters, and people can make their own sandwiches." And she protests, "They will all be so upset, and I'll never hear the end of it," shoots down every suggestion that I make.
> 
> What it comes down to, and I think some of the same may apply to your wife, is that she cares obsessively about these family and church "traditions" and she is mad that no one else cares as much as she does, or appreciates the amount of work she puts in, and so she tries to make them care. And she is completely resistant to any type of change. In her church, the older women who used to maintain some of these older traditions have either passed away or are too old/infirm to do them anymore; most of the women of my mother's generation either aren't interested, or are too busy dealing with their ailing parents and young grandchildren to participate; the women of my generation are too busy with careers and/or young children, or simply aren't invested in the traditions. The church isn't the social focal point that it once was in our society. I think all of this reminds my mother of her mortality, that her parents won't be around much longer, and that after they pass, she will be next (hopefully not for at least a good long while). I think this is my mother's way of try to exert some type of control in a situation where she feels very little control (the passage of time and things changing), because she is scared. Scared of change, of dying, of losing her parents.
> 
> My mom will nag my dad for not helping her or not doing his fair share of the work--mind you, stuff he never volunteered for himself. Stuff she volunteered for, and which she demands that he helps with. My dad has given up, he does the bare minimum and then goes off and does his own thing, and tunes her out. Both of his parents have already passed (my grandfather in 2000, my grandmother in 2004), and his outlook on like completely changed after my grandmother passed (and after he had a big health scare a few yrs later). He's not going to waste his time clinging to the past and obsessing over stuff that my mom does. He started exercising and eating better. He runs 5ks all the time (at 64!), and he goes out and does karaoke, and he enjoys his life. He's much happier in recent years than I remember him before my grandparents passed. He let my mom run the show for years, and now he's finally doing what he wants, and she's giving him sh!t for it.
> 
> Sorry, this isn't my thread, it's your thread. But I typed all that out, so I'm gonna post it anyway. I guess my point is... your wife is who she is. She's not going to change, and you can't make her. It's up to you how that affects YOU and how you live YOUR life. I hope you two can both read the Love Languages book and work through some of these issues, and I hope you can both accept one another for who you are.


----------



## nirvana

coffee4me said:


> She has an issue with how much time you spend with your kids and you have a reason as if she does not have a valid point.
> 
> You have an issue with her not acknowledging your compliments and she has a reason as if you do not have a valid point.
> 
> There's no real communication people are talking and nobody is listening and from the way you speak about your wife. There maybe compliments but it doesn't come across as genuine appreciation. Is there a way instead of bringing up the issues you can both agree to work on communication?
> 
> 
> On a side note: My father had a full time career, he excelled at and went to night school for 12 years of my childhood earning 2 degrees. He always spent time with us and he never used his career objectives as a reason for not being an active present part of our lives. I had no idea how rare that was but I can tell you I admire the hell out of him.



She does not have a valid point. I spend time with the kids, but do it to the level I think is right. But she is spoiled, being a SAHM for 10 years that her standards are too high. I need to spend time improving my skill set after work hours and also some time to do things that let my mind relax. For her time with kids is relaxing, but for me, I also read the news, read about politics, sports etc. 

Don't go by my tone or what I am saying as everything there is to know. I am focusing on the problem areas. She is a good person and I know she loves me, but the problem is she takes me for granted and does not know how to show love. She needs to loosen up and not thing about what someone thinks. She needs to not be a people pleaser. She is a bit immature. She needs see what she has instead of what she does not have.

If she was awful and insufferable, I would have left her a long time ago. 

Kudos to your dad. I did not take a consulting job because it meant travel and I wanted to come home to the wife and kids every evening. Yes, it may have hurt my career prospects. My wife has no appreciation for this, and has in the past admired the guys who took up traveling jobs. So I cannot win.


----------



## Morcoll

nirvana said:


> Lots of erroneous assumptions at the top of this post.
> 
> I first need to fix my career. I've been conservative and not taken risks because we were single income and the recession. Once that gets on track that I am happy with, I will be happy. Maybe things will fall into place after that.


Here is another one that you are going to say is erroneous-- you like to blame everything on everyone else (mostly your wife though). 

She may be spoiled, entitled, b*tchy, obsessive, or so on, but so what? 

You are not going to change her, however you can change your reaction to her. Or just leave her (before she leaves you). 

You may have been wronged, but wronging her back is not going to make it better.

She is now, it seems pretty clear, not attracted to your pouting, conditional compliments and approval (sex) seeking behavior. 

Time to take a long hard look at your true intentions.


----------



## nirvana

Morcoll said:


> Here is another one that you are going to say is erroneous-- you like to blame everything on everyone else (mostly your wife though).
> 
> She may be spoiled, entitled, b*tchy, obsessive, or so on, but so what?
> 
> You are not going to change her, however you can change your reaction to her. Or just leave her (before she leaves you).
> 
> You may have been wronged, but wronging her back is not going to make it better.
> 
> She is now, it seems pretty clear, not attracted to your pouting, conditional compliments and approval (sex) seeking behavior.
> 
> Time to take a long hard look at your true intentions.


Oh, I have made mistakes as well. No denying that. I could have been more softer to her early on. I have a temper and I have crossed the line several times. I have apologized to her many times whenever the topic came up. She never does for anything.

Yes, I can change my reaction, and that is what I am doing. No pouting any more, no compliments, no backrubs. She needs to win me over as well, marriage is a 2 way street. Note that I said "as well". I feel manipulated through sex and passive aggressive behavior and I don't need that kind of aggravation. If I train myself to not want sex, then that lever will go away.

I said earlier, I need to focus on making myself happy. And to do that now I need to focus on my career. If I am happy and confident, she will want to be with a winner. don't get me wrong, I am doing well, making 6 figures plus for the last 10 years or so. My investing should net us another 6 figures or close to it. I personally feel I have underachieved because of being conservative. If that still does not impress her, then I cannot do much.


----------



## nirvana

FeministInPink, she was a SAHM for 10 years and has now started working so she does not want to scale down her mom-ness because she feels guilty. And she is a genetic people pleaser. She wants others to validate her all the time. If she gets rid of these qualities, she will be happier and so will we.


----------



## coffee4me

nirvana said:


> I did not take a consulting job because it meant travel and I wanted to come home to the wife and kids every evening. Yes, it may have hurt my career prospects. My wife has no appreciation for this, and has in the past admired the guys who took up traveling jobs. So I cannot win.


I turned down 5 promotions when my kids were young. I never resented my spouse for it because it was my decision to do what I felt was in the best interest of my family. I never expected appreciation for making the decision to put my family first. 

Do you always look at your wife through a negative lens? Your posts about her are very negative. The only thing you praise her for is cooking but then you say she leaves the kitchen a mess, so that is not really a compliment. You said she's attractive but she appreciates others compliments more than yours, so that is not really a compliment. It's like any positive thing about her is reinforced with a negative. Perhaps that's how your wife views the compliments.


----------



## MEM2020

Nirvana,
I honestly believe that increasing/even doubling, your income is not going to improve your marriage. 

Because you are already successful: kids are in good schools, nice house in safe neighborhood, saving and investing money.

If you could work an extra 10 hours a week right now to double your income, would you do it? Overall do you think it would make you happier? Make N2 happier? 

It might for a short time. Than its just the new normal. 

Moving to a new city, taking on a more stressful job might increase your/her social status. But it won't make either of you happier with the other. 




nirvana said:


> Oh, I have made mistakes as well. No denying that. I could have been more softer to her early on. I have a temper and I have crossed the line several times. I have apologized to her many times whenever the topic came up. She never does for anything.
> 
> Yes, I can change my reaction, and that is what I am doing. No pouting any more, no compliments, no backrubs. She needs to win me over as well, marriage is a 2 way street. Note that I said "as well". I feel manipulated through sex and passive aggressive behavior and I don't need that kind of aggravation. If I train myself to not want sex, then that lever will go away.
> 
> I said earlier, I need to focus on making myself happy. And to do that now I need to focus on my career. If I am happy and confident, she will want to be with a winner. don't get me wrong, I am doing well, making 6 figures plus for the last 10 years or so. My investing should net us another 6 figures or close to it. I personally feel I have underachieved because of being conservative. If that still does not impress her, then I cannot do much.


----------



## FeministInPink

nirvana said:


> FeministInPink, she was a SAHM for 10 years and has now started working so she does not want to scale down her mom-ness because she feels guilty. And she is a genetic people pleaser. She wants others to validate her all the time. If she gets rid of these qualities, she will be happier and so will we.


But she won't get rid of those qualities. People don't change unless they really want to. Does your wife WANT to change? Probably not, because people don't like to look at themselves critically long enough to see their own flaws. And she probably hates it when (if?) you point them out to her.

I know EXACTLY what you mean. It's why I was trying to get my mom to drop the whole big Christmas dinner thing, because I saw how stressed and miserable it was making her. I know she would be happier, and so would everyone else. (OK, all my aunts and uncles and cousins would b!tch and moan, but if you decide you don't care what other people think, that doesn't really matter, does it?) 

Whether it's Christmas dinner for my mom or it's super-mom-ness for your wife, they're both afraid of change. They're afraid of letting go of their control, and what it means if they're NOT in control. They're scared everything is going to fall apart, because they don't know what the future holds.

Your wife (and my mom) needs a good dose il dolce far niente.


----------



## MEM2020

FIP,

The way I would approach this is to 'attempt' a compromise. 

The toughest part of this is when the other person believes that all this 'sacrifice' they are making proves they are a 'good person'. 







FeministInPink said:


> But she won't get rid of those qualities. People don't change unless they really want to. Does your wife WANT to change? Probably not, because people don't like to look at themselves critically long enough to see their own flaws. And she probably hates it when (if?) you point them out to her.
> 
> I know EXACTLY what you mean. It's why I was trying to get my mom to drop the whole big Christmas dinner thing, because I saw how stressed and miserable it was making her. I know she would be happier, and so would everyone else. (OK, all my aunts and uncles and cousins would b!tch and moan, but if you decide you don't care what other people think, that doesn't really matter, does it?)
> 
> Whether it's Christmas dinner for my mom or it's super-mom-ness for your wife, they're both afraid of change. They're afraid of letting go of their control, and what it means if they're NOT in control. They're scared everything is going to fall apart, because they don't know what the future holds.
> 
> Your wife (and my mom) needs a good dose il dolce far niente.


----------



## jb02157

nirvana said:


> Oh, I have made mistakes as well. No denying that. I could have been more softer to her early on. I have a temper and I have crossed the line several times. I have apologized to her many times whenever the topic came up. She never does for anything.
> 
> Yes, I can change my reaction, and that is what I am doing. No pouting any more, no compliments, no backrubs. She needs to win me over as well, marriage is a 2 way street. Note that I said "as well". I feel manipulated through sex and passive aggressive behavior and I don't need that kind of aggravation. If I train myself to not want sex, then that lever will go away.
> 
> I said earlier, I need to focus on making myself happy. And to do that now I need to focus on my career. If I am happy and confident, she will want to be with a winner. don't get me wrong, I am doing well, making 6 figures plus for the last 10 years or so. My investing should net us another 6 figures or close to it. I personally feel I have underachieved because of being conservative. If that still does not impress her, then I cannot do much.


I defiitely agree with you on all points. Women DO manipulate their men to do everythng THEY want without any consideration for the lifestye they are providing. I find them most of the time to be quite selfish never thinking about how they could be more consdierate to the one makes his will to assure she lives comfortably. Instead all you hear is complaints about everything they don't do.


----------



## coffee4me

jb02157 said:


> I defiitely agree with you on all points. Women DO manipulate their men to do everythng THEY want without any consideration for the lifestye they are providing. I find them most of the time to be quite selfish never thinking about how they could be more consdierate to the one makes his will to assure she lives comfortably. Instead all you hear is complaints about everything they don't do.


Have you only been in relationships with financially dependent women?


----------



## nirvana

MEM11363 said:


> Nirvana,
> I honestly believe that increasing/even doubling, your income is not going to improve your marriage.
> 
> Because you are already successful: kids are in good schools, nice house in safe neighborhood, saving and investing money.
> 
> If you could work an extra 10 hours a week right now to double your income, would you do it? Overall do you think it would make you happier? Make N2 happier?
> 
> It might for a short time. Than its just the new normal.
> 
> Moving to a new city, taking on a more stressful job might increase your/her social status. But it won't make either of you happier with the other.


Well, you are right, it may not improve my marriage. But as far as my career goes, it's been a struggle for me as I have not chosen the right companies to work for. And for a long time I thought I was doing something wrong. When I got the right environment in 2013 and 2014, I flourished. Then the company did poorly (a startup) financially and I got laid off along with many others including the CEO. Just my bad luck. My wife now feels that I am some sort of underachiever career wise and hints that "lazy people don't succeed". She thinks she is hard working while I am not though she does not say it directly. The hints are enough. She doesn't stop to think that all that we have is because of my earnings. She was a SAHM all these years. Yes, she sacrificed her career for kids but that does not buy a house in a good area. Sacrifice does not pay bills. In addition, I am unhappy about my career situation as well and feel that I am not able to control it.

I am not looking to make a million dollars or something, but just up it a bit so that I feel happy and fulfilled. At this moment, I do not. Maybe I give out unhappy vibes and she is picking up on it. My standards for myself are much higher.


----------



## nirvana

FeministInPink said:


> But she won't get rid of those qualities. People don't change unless they really want to. Does your wife WANT to change? Probably not, because people don't like to look at themselves critically long enough to see their own flaws. And she probably hates it when (if?) you point them out to her.
> 
> I know EXACTLY what you mean. It's why I was trying to get my mom to drop the whole big Christmas dinner thing, because I saw how stressed and miserable it was making her. I know she would be happier, and so would everyone else. (OK, all my aunts and uncles and cousins would b!tch and moan, but if you decide you don't care what other people think, that doesn't really matter, does it?)
> 
> Whether it's Christmas dinner for my mom or it's super-mom-ness for your wife, they're both afraid of change. They're afraid of letting go of their control, and what it means if they're NOT in control. They're scared everything is going to fall apart, because they don't know what the future holds.
> 
> Your wife (and my mom) needs a good dose il dolce far niente.



I want to clarify something. 
I love my wife and kids and am not looking for a divorce. She loves me too but she isn't showing it the way I like it to be shown. Maybe I was stiff earlier and grumpy too in the beginning of our marriage. As I have gotten older, I have loosened up and I want to have fun as well. I think my wife switched her emotional needs from me to the kids because I was grumpy earlier. Now she is grumpy and I am not (as much). Now being super mom is a habit with her. I cannot even take her out just the to of us without her worrying about the kids. Now that is fine and all but there is a limit and it gets annoying after a while. Hey, I love my kids too and many women forget that the dads also love their kids. It just not how moms love them. 

My wife is not all bad though I can see how it seems that way. I am just talking about the issues that I see as a problem. In that, she looks bad to me on those issues. She has a lot of good points and I don't see those as a problem and if asked, I share.

I've been slightly aloof and serious over the last few days and she's been responding nicely.

Feminist, I had downloaded 5 Love Languages earlier and read it on my way back from work. Finished about 50 pages. Getting to the fun part now.


----------



## FeministInPink

nirvana said:


> I want to clarify something.
> I love my wife and kids and am not looking for a divorce. She loves me too but she isn't showing it the way I like it to be shown. Maybe I was stiff earlier and grumpy too in the beginning of our marriage. As I have gotten older, I have loosened up and I want to have fun as well. I think my wife switched her emotional needs from me to the kids because I was grumpy earlier. Now she is grumpy and I am not (as much). Now being super mom is a habit with her. I cannot even take her out just the to of us without her worrying about the kids. Now that is fine and all but there is a limit and it gets annoying after a while. Hey, I love my kids too and many women forget that the dads also love their kids. It just not how moms love them.
> 
> My wife is not all bad though I can see how it seems that way. I am just talking about the issues that I see as a problem. In that, she looks bad to me on those issues. She has a lot of good points and I don't see those as a problem and if asked, I share.
> 
> I've been slightly aloof and serious over the last few days and she's been responding nicely.
> 
> Feminist, I had downloaded 5 Love Languages earlier and read it on my way back from work. Finished about 50 pages. Getting to the fun part now.


I'm not sure if the whole post was directed towards me, or just the last part? I never thought that you were looking to get a divorce--you're here looking for solutions, that much is obvious 

(And as awful as divorce is, I would never suggest or recommend it willy-nilly or lightly!)

My point, I guess, is that people are they way they are and you can't change them. But you CAN change yourself, and you can change how you react to the situation and how you engage. And who knows? If she sees a change in you, she may be prompted to change for the better, as well. 

I'm glad you're reading the book. I hope it helps, and I'm looking forward to updates.


----------



## FeministInPink

MEM11363 said:


> FIP,
> 
> The way I would approach this is to 'attempt' a compromise.
> 
> The toughest part of this is when the other person believes that all this 'sacrifice' they are making proves they are a 'good person'.


Ha ha, sometimes that works, and sometimes it doesn't! (With my mom? Never!!! Compromise is for suckers!!! But she falls into the category of "my sacrifice proves that I'm such a good/better person.")

I make my suggestion, and then leave it at that. She'll do what she wants, and I don't fret about it. If she wants to drive herself up a wall, that's up to her.

Nirvana mentioned that his wife is a people-pleaser, I think? So maybe it makes her feel better about herself? Maybe she derives a sense of self-worth from doing this stuff? He said she identified with super-mom-ness for a long time, and she is having trouble transitioning or identifying as a working mom now, and how that's different?

I'm just hypothesizing here, just throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks.


----------



## turnera

nirvana said:


> I have been getting this feeling for the past few months. That my compliments to my wife have less and less "value".


Have you read No More Mister Nice Guy yet?


----------



## Morcoll

nirvana said:


> Oh, I have made mistakes as well. No denying that. I could have been more softer to her early on. I have a temper and I have crossed the line several times. I have apologized to her many times whenever the topic came up. She never does for anything.
> 
> Yes, I can change my reaction, and that is what I am doing. No pouting any more, no compliments, no backrubs. She needs to win me over as well, marriage is a 2 way street. Note that I said "as well". I feel manipulated through sex and passive aggressive behavior and I don't need that kind of aggravation. If I train myself to not want sex, then that lever will go away.
> 
> I said earlier, I need to focus on making myself happy. And to do that now I need to focus on my career. If I am happy and confident, she will want to be with a winner. don't get me wrong, I am doing well, making 6 figures plus for the last 10 years or so. My investing should net us another 6 figures or close to it. I personally feel I have underachieved because of being conservative. If that still does not impress her, then I cannot do much.


You are going about this ALL wrong. 

First of all, it is pretty clear you are wanting to punish her, because you feel punished. Withholding compliments, back rubs, etc, SPECIFICALLY to punish her...talk about passive aggressive. 

And yes, train yourself not to want sex-- specifically so she cannot 'hold that over you'. 

If you think this is about money....wow. 

This is going to get ugly. 

Hopefully some guy who is actually fun to be around doesn't take interest in her because you are about to drive her further away.


----------



## FeministInPink

Morcoll said:


> You are going about this ALL wrong.
> 
> *First of all, it is pretty clear you are wanting to punish her, because you feel punished. Withholding compliments, back rubs, etc, SPECIFICALLY to punish her...talk about passive aggressive.*
> 
> And yes, train yourself not to want sex-- specifically so she cannot 'hold that over you'.
> 
> If you think this is about money....wow.
> 
> This is going to get ugly.
> 
> Hopefully some guy who is actually fun to be around doesn't take interest in her because you are about to drive her further away.


This had occurred to me, but I didn't mention it... I wasn't sure if I was projecting based on my experiences in my former marriage (the bolded above, my XH did that to me). I'm glad someone else sees it, and I'm glad you brought it up.


----------



## RandomDude

I disagree that it's punishment

Like hell I wouldn't want any woman to compliment me routinely which it seems OP is doing. Nor do I like excessive routine kissing or sex or <insert romantic interaction here>... it just ruins the anticipation, tension and fun of it!

Hell in fact I find it odd that others are encouraging it. For me I like things in moderation, balanced, and just because you have something the other wants doesn't mean you have to give it to them straight away. No fun in that. I don't like to be worshiped and hearing "you're so great, you're so great" a million times just makes me shake my head.


----------



## MEM2020

So when I wrote that thermostat post, I knew it was occasionally going to get misused. 

Random has of course hit the key points. There should be a balance. 

You can weaponize almost any behavior. And you might even find it tempting to go into thermal warfare mode with an ill behaved partner. 

Marriages are like all solar systems in the sense that they all have a Goldilocks zone. Earth is in it. Mercury is too hot. Saturn is too cold. 





RandomDude said:


> I disagree that it's punishment
> 
> Like hell I wouldn't want any woman to compliment me routinely which it seems OP is doing. Nor do I like excessive routine kissing or sex or <insert romantic interaction here>... it just ruins the anticipation, tension and fun of it!
> 
> Hell in fact I find it odd that others are encouraging it. For me I like things in moderation, balanced, and just because you have something the other wants doesn't mean you have to give it to them straight away. No fun in that. I don't like to be worshiped and hearing "you're so great, you're so great" a million times just makes me shake my head.


----------



## nirvana

FeministInPink said:


> This had occurred to me, but I didn't mention it... I wasn't sure if I was projecting based on my experiences in my former marriage (the bolded above, my XH did that to me). I'm glad someone else sees it, and I'm glad you brought it up.



I respect your and Morcoll's opinions, but my goal is not to punish her. I just think one needs to treat others like they treat you. It's as simple as that.

I am not depriving her or giving her a cold treatment, I am just scaling things down a bit. She needs to miss me. Right now, she doesn't seem to be. If she doesn't, then it's her decision to make. I've noticed that there is more affection when I cool things down from my side.


----------



## turnera

You sound like you DID read NMMNG and are just trying to man up by giving her the cold shoulder, to 'teach' her to respect you.

But it doesn't work like that. It's a lot more involved. She won't turn into the person you want just by missing you.

Are you two in MC?


----------



## Morcoll

nirvana said:


> I respect your and Morcoll's opinions, but my goal is not to punish her. I just think one needs to treat others like they treat you. It's as simple as that.
> 
> I am not depriving her or giving her a cold treatment, I am just scaling things down a bit. She needs to miss me. Right now, she doesn't seem to be. If she doesn't, then it's her decision to make. I've noticed that there is more affection when I cool things down from my side.


Maybe you could use a different word from punishment but it is quite clear your intentions are to 'punish' her. You seem extremely resentful, maybe even angry. And frankly, I don't think you even like your wife, but you find her attractive so you want to keep her.


----------



## nirvana

Morcoll said:


> Maybe you could use a different word from punishment but it is quite clear your intentions are to 'punish' her. You seem extremely resentful, maybe even angry. And frankly, I don't think you even like your wife, but you find her attractive so you want to keep her.


lol
You are wrong. So very wrong. 
I love the way how some folks on TAM put words and intentions into other people's minds and mouth and are extremely sure about it.
Did I use the word "punishment"? If so that was a wrong word to use. 

You should remember that this is an internet forum where emotions cannot be conveyed correctly. I could have been angry at the time of a post, or calm during another. So it is hard to judge.

I used to send her "love you" kisses on iMessage and I rarely got a response. Maybe 1/5. So I have stopped. Am I testing her? Maybe. She is my wife and she needs to show me that she loves me, just like I need to show her. Marriage is 2 ways.


----------



## nirvana

turnera said:


> You sound like you DID read NMMNG and are just trying to man up by giving her the cold shoulder, to 'teach' her to respect you.
> 
> But it doesn't work like that. It's a lot more involved. She won't turn into the person you want just by missing you.
> 
> Are you two in MC?


Yes, I read it back in 2013. I am not giving her a cold shoulder, we talk and do everything, but I don't go overboard with my emotions anymore. No MC, at least not yet.


----------



## turnera

Ok, then, I suggest you go down this route. It will give you the most clarity and information, which you sorely need, and chart your path.

Read His Needs Her Needs - hopefully together. It's an easy read, very basic but powerful stuff. You'll learn a lot about how to have a happy marriage.

Once you've read it, print out the Love Buster questionnaires (one for male, one for female) and fill them out. It will tell you (hers) what you do that annoys her. Yours will tell her what she does that annoys you. Once you know these things, both of you should work on eliminating those habits. Spend about 3 months changing your habits so you two have stopped Love Busting each other. Kind of like clearing the air.

Once that's been improved, print out and fill out the Emotional Needs questionnaires. Learn what the other person's top 5 ENs are, and make sure that you're the only person meeting those very important ENs. 

All the while, keeping the NMMNG tenets in the back of your head. Which will include listening to that little voice in your head and putting a stop to your spouse's actions that harm you. We can help with suggestions for that. Read the NMMNG list once a week and ask yourself if you're caving on things you shouldn't cave on, and make corrections.

Follow these steps and you should be in an entirely new place in 6 months.


----------



## RandomDude

nirvana said:


> I used to send her "love you" kisses on iMessage and I rarely got a response. Maybe 1/*5*.


*cringes*



> So I have stopped.


Thank the heavens!


----------



## MEM2020

Nirvana,

It's perfectly ok to stop doing things that you weren't getting a consistently warm response to. 

I do believe that some of your issues are caused by the specific approach you take. 

For instance, you describe hugs that are highly sexualized. Not sure she likes that. 

So perceives those hugs as you wanting something from her. Not giving something to her. 

Part of your issue is - this type of thing. 







nirvana said:


> lol
> You are wrong. So very wrong.
> I love the way how some folks on TAM put words and intentions into other people's minds and mouth and are extremely sure about it.
> Did I use the word "punishment"? If so that was a wrong word to use.
> 
> You should remember that this is an internet forum where emotions cannot be conveyed correctly. I could have been angry at the time of a post, or calm during another. So it is hard to judge.
> 
> I used to send her "love you" kisses on iMessage and I rarely got a response. Maybe 1/5. So I have stopped. Am I testing her? Maybe. She is my wife and she needs to show me that she loves me, just like I need to show her. Marriage is 2 ways.


----------



## turnera

MEM11363 said:


> For instance, you describe hugs that are highly sexualized. Not sure she likes that.


Women are always on the lookout for being seen or used as a sexual object. Even by their husband. I've told my H many times if he'd just stop grabbing me sexually, I would cuddle with him more. But he 'can't help himself' and ends up grabbing my breast or crotch. 

So I sit on the other end of the couch.


----------



## nirvana

RandomDude said:


> *cringes*
> 
> 
> 
> Thank the heavens!


Well, nothing wrong in what I did per se, but when the response was not as expected, I should have stopped.


----------



## nirvana

turnera said:


> Women are always on the lookout for being seen or used as a sexual object. Even by their husband. I've told my H many times if he'd just stop grabbing me sexually, I would cuddle with him more. But he 'can't help himself' and ends up grabbing my breast or crotch.
> 
> So I sit on the other end of the couch.


Hmm good points. And I agree with you. I am guilty of it as well. 
So these days I don't. 
I laughed when I read the above. My wife sits at the other side of the couch as well! Her excuse is she wants a corner which I think is a fake reason. Let's see if there is any improvement. You women are all so alike.  My wife has even told me "I am like an object to you". Can't get clearer than that.

It's not that I always hug her in a sexual way, only sometimes. But I do grab her butt/breast more than I need to and I've put a stop to all of that. Actually I haven't even touched her in about 5 days other than involuntary brushing while walking. I consider this to be a sort of detox for both of us. Eventually I'll decide how much contact to have but there has to be a reciprocation.


----------



## nirvana

MEM11363 said:


> Nirvana,
> 
> It's perfectly ok to stop doing things that you weren't getting a consistently warm response to.
> 
> I do believe that some of your issues are caused by the specific approach you take.
> 
> For instance, you describe hugs that are highly sexualized. Not sure she likes that.
> 
> So perceives those hugs as you wanting something from her. Not giving something to her.
> 
> Part of your issue is - this type of thing.


Yes, possibly, though I hug her in non sexual ways also. And I give her back rubs when she is on her period when her back hurts (so obviously no expectation of sex). 
Maybe after a few weeks, I should just give her a backrub and go to sleep. I bet that would confuse her though (from past experience)


----------



## MEM2020

Nirvana,

You are making good, steady progress. You are not worried about how things 'look' or even how they might 'make you look'.

Instead you are completely focused on how things are. This is a huge step forward. 

If I had not stopped 'sexually groping' M2 24 years ago, we'd be divorced by now. She hated it. Hated feeling like a sex object to me. 

It hugely helped our marriage when I completely and totally stopped groping her. 




nirvana said:


> Hmm good points. And I agree with you. I am guilty of it as well.
> So these days I don't.
> I laughed when I read the above. My wife sits at the other side of the couch as well! Her excuse is she wants a corner which I think is a fake reason. Let's see if there is any improvement. You women are all so alike.  My wife has even told me "I am like an object to you". Can't get clearer than that.
> 
> It's not that I always hug her in a sexual way, only sometimes. But I do grab her butt/breast more than I need to and I've put a stop to all of that. Actually I haven't even touched her in about 5 days other than involuntary brushing while walking. I consider this to be a sort of detox for both of us. Eventually I'll decide how much contact to have but there has to be a reciprocation.


----------



## RandomDude

nirvana said:


> Well, nothing wrong in what I did per se, but when the response was not as expected, I should have stopped.


Aye, try to look at it like a tennis match, if she's not playing ball, don't just keep serving her. Take the hint. Besides continuing after the response is not favorable = smothering.



> It's not that I always hug her in a sexual way, only sometimes. But I do grab her butt/breast more than I need to and I've put a stop to all of that. Actually I haven't even touched her in about 5 days other than involuntary brushing while walking. I consider this to be a sort of detox for both of us. Eventually I'll decide how much contact to have but there has to be a reciprocation.


When it comes to sexual touches there needs to be some arousal otherwise it just makes it uncomfortable. So start with non-sexual touches first. 

Watch her body language and listen to her ques - let the lady lead the dance, before you make the move on to sexual touches. And when it comes to sexual touches themselves well, I prefer to playfully touch and tease her rather than to just grab a woman's parts like that. But hey, just my style and what works for me.


----------



## nirvana

Random Dude, agreed, and thanks!

MEM, your thermo post in the other board is great! Described me very well.


----------



## turnera

nirvana said:


> It's not that I always hug her in a sexual way, only sometimes.


So say she got turned on by punching you in the nose. But she doesn't do it every time she's within distance. _Only sometimes._ 

How 'on guard' do you think you're going to become, to be on the lookout for getting punched in the face? Probably every time she comes near you, right?

That's what your wife does every time YOU come near HER: turn on her guard to be ready to swipe your hands away. Or, far easier, just never be within distance.


----------



## MEM2020

T,
I just don't think it's possible to over emphasize how powerful this stuff can be. 

And I think that this outcome is mostly up to the HD partner. They either control themselves and refrain from unwanted touch or they don't. 






turnera said:


> So say she got turned on by punching you in the nose. But she doesn't do it every time she's within distance. _Only sometimes._
> 
> How 'on guard' do you think you're going to become, to be on the lookout for getting punched in the face? Probably every time she comes near you, right?
> 
> That's what your wife does every time YOU come near HER: turn on her guard to be ready to swipe your hands away. Or, far easier, just never be within distance.


----------



## nirvana

turnera said:


> So say she got turned on by punching you in the nose. But she doesn't do it every time she's within distance. _Only sometimes._
> 
> How 'on guard' do you think you're going to become, to be on the lookout for getting punched in the face? Probably every time she comes near you, right?
> 
> That's what your wife does every time YOU come near HER: turn on her guard to be ready to swipe your hands away. Or, far easier, just never be within distance.


:smthumbup:


----------



## turnera

The worst thing is that I'd ASK my H to just cuddle with me without it leading to sex. I remember asking him that the first six months we were together (and countless times AFTER that), 35+ years ago. Every time, he'd promise we could.

And every time, he'd push for sex. Or grope me. So I stopped cuddling, early on. The only times I get near him are the nights when I know I'll be ok to have sex.

Because I no longer trust him to do what he says. He made himself the person I have to protect myself from.

Do you want your wife thinking of you that way?

Or do you want to respect her and her wishes?


----------



## Morcoll

nirvana said:


> lol
> You are wrong. So very wrong.
> I love the way how some folks on TAM put words and intentions into other people's minds and mouth and are extremely sure about it.
> Did I use the word "punishment"? If so that was a wrong word to use.
> 
> You should remember that this is an internet forum where emotions cannot be conveyed correctly. I could have been angry at the time of a post, or calm during another. So it is hard to judge.
> 
> I used to send her "love you" kisses on iMessage and I rarely got a response. Maybe 1/5. So I have stopped. Am I testing her? Maybe. She is my wife and she needs to show me that she loves me, just like I need to show her. Marriage is 2 ways.


Well, I guess you'll show her who's boss!


----------



## Morcoll

nirvana said:


> Hmm good points. And I agree with you. I am guilty of it as well.
> So these days I don't.
> I laughed when I read the above. My wife sits at the other side of the couch as well! Her excuse is she wants a corner which I think is a fake reason. Let's see if there is any improvement.* You women are all so alike. * My wife has even told me "I am like an object to you". Can't get clearer than that.
> 
> It's not that I always hug her in a sexual way, only sometimes. But I do grab her butt/breast more than I need to and I've put a stop to all of that. Actually I haven't even touched her in about 5 days other than involuntary brushing while walking. I consider this to be a sort of detox for both of us. Eventually I'll decide how much contact to have but there has to be a reciprocation.


You are freakin clueless dude. It's about your intentions and it's clear to your wife, has been for years, what your intentions are. You are not aware that this is obvious because you are not even honest with yourself about your intentions. 

Your wife is hot. You want to f*ck her more often. Other than that, you don't care for her. 

She knows this.


----------



## nirvana

It's been about 6 days since my no-touch policy and it's been pretty good. Yesterday night she wanted me to do her a favor and drop some things off outside and came and requested me and I agreed and drove out. Usually there is nothing when I come back but this time she came and thanked me, put her arm around my shoulder. I think I need to show her that I can do both sexual and non-sexual touches and those should be distinguishable, so when I give her a massage, she shouldn't feel that I am actually trying to F her. Sometimes I am, sometimes I am not, but I can see that this not made clear to her.

I will need to see some reaction from her as the next step. From past experience, when I have backed off, after some time she begins to wonder and then gets more physical in her interaction. That hasn't happened yet maybe because she is superbusy with work and kids and is very tired by evening. Let's see what happens.


----------



## Spitfire

My wife was similar to yours except maybe not as hot . This is what I did. First I learned to accept her for the completely beautiful person she is. It's hard to do and you'll backslide often but keep working at it. Let go of the resentment. It's hard but accept her for who she is and love her for it. Don't make any show of it by telling her that or anything. This is all in your head. During this time, help her out in the evenings (don't go overboard). She'll notice the change but it will take time for her to believe it will last. Eventually as she feels more comfortable she'll be next to you on the couch and things will progress in her time table.

My wife has been a stay at home mom for 14 years. We both built up a lot of resentment that we didn't realize was so toxic to our marriage because we rarely communicated it. I initiated this and she's starting to follow suit. We went from sitting on different couches to laying on our kids bean bags together with my arm around her. Sure, there are times like last night when I came home it was chaotic. Dinner hadn't been thought about yet, she had to run to the store for some things. In the past I would think WTH have you been doing! Now I realize she's been staining the deck and other things so I jumped in and had dinner just about ready when she got home. No negative projections just being happy (not resentful) to help goes a long way. Now we BOTH want to have sex more often as a result of us both being in a better place in our marriage.


----------



## nirvana

There was a time when she was a SAHM many years ago that I would call her every day on my way back from work. Just how was your day kind of thing. Then I noticed that she would talk for 10 mins and then say she was busy and disconnect. After a while I got the hint and I reduced frequency and then stopped calling completely. There were no calls from her. 
Nowadays, I still don't call unless there is a reason, but now she calls me just to chat on her way back from work. Not every day but 2 times a week. Like today. I was about to get into the station so I just picked up and told her that and spoke for 2 mins and told her I would call in 10 mins after the train left the station. Then I didn't call (and neither did she) as I was watching a tech related video on my iPad. I got too "easy" over the years, I will admit.


----------



## turnera

nirvana said:


> *I will need to see* some reaction from her as the next step. From past experience, when I have backed off, after some time she begins to wonder and then gets more physical in her interaction. That hasn't happened yet maybe because she is superbusy with work and kids and is very tired by evening. Let's see what happens.


Or what?

You go back to groping her?

Dude, this is about respect. She is not just a vessel for your d*ck. You sure don't act like you understand this.

And I guarantee she knows it.


----------



## Holland

nirvana said:


> Hmm good points. And I agree with you. I am guilty of it as well.
> So these days I don't.
> I laughed when I read the above. My wife sits at the other side of the couch as well! Her excuse is she wants a corner which I think is a fake reason. Let's see if there is any improvement. *You women are all so alike*.  My wife has even told me "I am like an object to you". Can't get clearer than that.
> 
> It's not that I always hug her in a sexual way, only sometimes. But I do grab her butt/breast more than I need to and I've put a stop to all of that. Actually I haven't even touched her in about 5 days other than involuntary brushing while walking. I consider this to be a sort of detox for both of us. Eventually I'll decide how much contact to have but there has to be a reciprocation.


No we are not! And that is part of your problem, instead of knowing your wife, what she likes and doesn't like you refer back to incorrect "group think".

I am a very sexual woman and enjoy sexual contact outside the bedroom. We are all different, when will men understand that? It is about knowing your wife as an individual person and respecting that.


----------



## turnera

nirvana said:


> There was a time when she was a SAHM many years ago that I would call her every day on my way back from work. Just how was your day kind of thing. Then I noticed that she would talk for 10 mins and then say she was busy and disconnect.


Did you ever read about the Love Languages? You keep talking about 'all the things' you do for her, to show her you love her, and how she just is a POS because she doesn't appreciate it. Well, guess what? YOUR Love Languages are likely not HER Love Languages. 

I can't STAND to talk. Hate it. When my H calls me, I just want to get off the phone. HE thinks he's sweet talking me and doing his due diligence. It has no effect on me. When he tells me compliments, it just makes me uncomfortable.

What DOES matter to me is Acts of Service. Taking care of our house. Doing something if I ask for it. NOT doing something I ask him NOT to do. In other words, listening to me. Making me his equal. Respecting me. When he does these things, I'm full of love for him. Even want to jump his bones because THAT husband turns me on. 

Not the one who buys me perfume and jewelry and clothes (none of which I want) because HE thinks that's romantic, while ignoring what I TELL him makes me happy.

Home | The 5 Love Languages® | Improving Millions of Relationships? One Language at a Time.


----------



## Mostlycontent

turnera said:


> Did you ever read about the Love Languages? You keep talking about 'all the things' you do for her, to show her you love her, and how she just is a POS because she doesn't appreciate it. Well, guess what? YOUR Love Languages are likely not HER Love Languages.
> 
> I can't STAND to talk. Hate it. When my H calls me, I just want to get off the phone. HE thinks he's sweet talking me and doing his due diligence. It has no effect on me. When he tells me compliments, it just makes me uncomfortable.
> 
> What DOES matter to me is Acts of Service. Taking care of our house. Doing something if I ask for it. NOT doing something I ask him NOT to do. In other words, listening to me. Making me his equal. Respecting me. When he does these things, I'm full of love for him. Even want to jump his bones because THAT husband turns me on.
> 
> Not the one who buys me perfume and jewelry and clothes (none of which I want) because HE thinks that's romantic, while ignoring what I TELL him makes me happy.
> 
> Home | The 5 Love Languages® | Improving Millions of Relationships? One Language at a Time.



My wife is exactly the same way, although she does like to hear how beautiful I think she is from time to time. While OP has certainly been given some good advice, this is all too one-sided for me. What about his needs?

What is she doing to make him feel fulfilled and is she having sex with him frequently enough. If not, he needs to make that known and stand by it. 

I for one don't tolerate such nonsense. It's a two way street and not a one way "what can you do for the wife" direction. She needs to be in the boat with him. So many marital problems stem from lack of physical affection and just plain sex.

Men really aren't that difficult to figure out and make happy and you can bet your @ss that if a man isn't pleased with the marriage, it's quite likely these two areas that are the culprit.

It seems that people come out of the woodwork to rail on a guy and tell him all the things he needs to do to please his wife when if she would just do her part, most of these problems go away and he has incentive to try and please her. Again, it's a two way street.

You can't as a woman decide that you won't give your husband enough physical affection and sex and then expect him to make any kind of effort to meet your needs. It's too easy to just go outside the marriage to get that need met for a lot of guys.

I've been married for 30 years and that's the way it has to be - both sides *COMMITTED* to meeting the needs of one another and making every attempt to do so. At no time can either spouse decide that physical affection and/or sex is off the table.....*NEVER*, unless you want the marriage to fail.


----------



## Mostlycontent

turnera said:


> Or what?
> 
> You go back to groping her?
> 
> Dude, this is about respect. She is not just a vessel for your d*ck. You sure don't act like you understand this.
> 
> And I guarantee she knows it.


I would agree to an extent. She is also a vessel for his d!ck as well though. Perhaps she has forgotten that part.

Men need physical touch and need to feel desired as well. I'm a workout warrior, have been since my football days in college, and I expect my wife to notice and appreciate me. If she doesn't, she knows other women will notice. It makes me more valuable and sexy in her eyes. 

It's always a good idea to have some street value, meaning be attractive to other people and not just your spouse. It gives you more leverage. I would never want my wife to feel like I wasn't a good catch or she didn't need to make much of any effort to keep me. Always keep it fresh. When people get complacent and frumpy, things usually start going downhill from there.

My wife still walks 3 miles a day, works out with weights when she can and tans in the winter time so she always looks her best. Damn, I really appreciate that about her. We both believe that it is our obligation to look as good as we can for each other. It keeps you from taking each other for granted. 

Okay, I'll step down from the soapbox now.


----------



## nirvana

turnera said:


> Or what?
> 
> You go back to groping her?
> 
> Dude, this is about respect. She is not just a vessel for your d*ck. You sure don't act like you understand this.
> 
> And I guarantee she knows it.



Stop putting words in my mouth. You are undoing all your good posts with nonsensical ones like these.


----------



## nirvana

Mostlycontent said:


> My wife is exactly the same way, although she does like to hear how beautiful I think she is from time to time. While OP has certainly been given some good advice, this is all too one-sided for me. What about his needs?
> 
> What is she doing to make him feel fulfilled and is she having sex with him frequently enough. If not, he needs to make that known and stand by it.
> 
> I for one don't tolerate such nonsense. It's a two way street and not a one way "what can you do for the wife" direction. She needs to be in the boat with him. So many marital problems stem from lack of physical affection and just plain sex.
> 
> Men really aren't that difficult to figure out and make happy and you can bet your @ss that if a man isn't pleased with the marriage, it's quite likely these two areas that are the culprit.
> 
> It seems that people come out of the woodwork to rail on a guy and tell him all the things he needs to do to please his wife when if she would just do her part, most of these problems go away and he has incentive to try and please her. Again, it's a two way street.
> 
> You can't as a woman decide that you won't give your husband enough physical affection and sex and then expect him to make any kind of effort to meet your needs. It's too easy to just go outside the marriage to get that need met for a lot of guys.
> 
> I've been married for 30 years and that's the way it has to be - both sides *COMMITTED* to meeting the needs of one another and making every attempt to do so. At no time can either spouse decide that physical affection and/or sex is off the table.....*NEVER*, unless you want the marriage to fail.



Great post. But you will not find too many women agreeing with you.
Most of the ladies here just want me to do whatever my wife wants but have no expectation of having my needs met. Doesn't work that way.


----------



## Mostlycontent

nirvana said:


> Great post. But you will not find too many women agreeing with you.
> Most of the ladies here just want me to do whatever my wife wants but have no expectation of having my needs met. Doesn't work that way.



I believe that women want and desire strong men. You have to make it known what you want and expect and stand by it. You can't have it both ways - a man who is just like them but also strong. Men and women are different. Men are expected to be the leaders and heads of the household. We're the hunters and providers and should act like it.

We can still work on those other skills but we have to be strong over and above all the rest of it. I'm not a supporter of the "girly-man" standard that's been thrown out there. Besides, women don't really want that anyway.


----------



## nirvana

Personal said:


> Is this how you talk to your wife?



Not any of your business, is it? :smile2:


----------



## nirvana

Mostlycontent said:


> I believe that women want and desire strong men. You have to make it known what you want and expect and stand by it. You can't have it both ways - a man who is just like them but also strong. Men and women are different. Men are expected to be the leaders and heads of the household. We're the hunters and providers and should act like it.
> 
> We can still work on those other skills but we have to be strong over and above all the rest of it. I'm not a supporter of the "girly-man" standard that's been thrown out there. Besides, women don't really want that anyway.


Agreed Sir.


----------



## turnera

Mostlycontent said:


> My wife is exactly the same way, although she does like to hear how beautiful I think she is from time to time. While OP has certainly been given some good advice, this is all too one-sided for me. What about his needs?


From what I can tell, the ONLY need of his that is NOT being met is the sex one. He's never complained, that I recall, about anything else, correct me if I'm wrong. 

And if that's the case, then he needs to understand that most females tie emotional attraction to sex. And most females stop HAVING sex when the emotional attraction is broken.

Thus, if he wants sex, he needs to address where/when/how that emotional attraction got broken. And from what he's described, a lot of it has to do with him pushing for sex, groping her like a tomato, and ignoring what she tells him.

So that's what we're addressing...to HELP him get that need (sex) met. He can't FORCE her to want to screw him. He CAN change HIMSELF back to the person she wanted to screw.


----------



## turnera

nirvana said:


> Stop putting words in my mouth. You are undoing all your good posts with nonsensical ones like these.


Then stop saying nonsensical things like she'd better reciprocate.

Now, if you were saying if she doesn't reciprocate, I'll accept she's not into me and start looking to separate, I'd respect that response.

ETA: Just so you know, if SHE were here posting, ASKING for advice for a bad marriage, we would be telling her two things:
(1) You MUST communicate what you're unhappy about because he probably doesn't know and he can't fix what he doesn't know.
(2) You can't just stop having sex with your husband just because you're unhappy. I mean, you CAN, but doing that will drive him crazy and he'll end up either becoming clingy, cheating to get that sex, or divorcing you.

But she's not here. So we're trying to fix it from YOUR side, and what we're telling you nearly always works. And we have years of experience, hundreds of men in your exact same position, to know.


----------



## Morcoll

Mostlycontent said:


> My wife is exactly the same way, although she does like to hear how beautiful I think she is from time to time. While OP has certainly been given some good advice, this is all too one-sided for me. What about his needs?
> 
> What is she doing to make him feel fulfilled and is she having sex with him frequently enough. If not, he needs to make that known and stand by it.
> 
> I for one don't tolerate such nonsense. It's a two way street and not a one way "what can you do for the wife" direction. She needs to be in the boat with him. So many marital problems stem from lack of physical affection and just plain sex.
> 
> Men really aren't that difficult to figure out and make happy and you can bet your @ss that if a man isn't pleased with the marriage, it's quite likely these two areas that are the culprit.
> 
> It seems that people come out of the woodwork to rail on a guy and tell him all the things he needs to do to please his wife when if she would just do her part, most of these problems go away and he has incentive to try and please her. Again, it's a two way street.
> 
> You can't as a woman decide that you won't give your husband enough physical affection and sex and then expect him to make any kind of effort to meet your needs. It's too easy to just go outside the marriage to get that need met for a lot of guys.
> 
> I've been married for 30 years and that's the way it has to be - both sides *COMMITTED* to meeting the needs of one another and making every attempt to do so. At no time can either spouse decide that physical affection and/or sex is off the table.....*NEVER*, unless you want the marriage to fail.


what if the husband is an a-hole who CLEARLY only wants her for sex and frankly appears to have no other interest in her? what if she doesn't feel love? 

She should just have sex b/c that's what wives do? Well, that sounds fulfilling. 

Clearly OPs wife has lost attraction for him and a lot of it likely has to do with the way he treats her. She probably KNOWS that all he wants when he does ANYTHING for her is to be rewarded with sex, and that is extremely unsexy.


----------



## turnera

Mostlycontent said:


> We can still work on those other skills but we have to be strong over and above all the rest of it. I'm not a supporter of the "girly-man" standard that's been thrown out there. Besides, women don't really want that anyway.


I hope you're not suggesting that our advice is for him to be a girly-man.

If so, you are completely misreading the advice. The advice is to work smarter, not harder. Use what WORKS with her, not what YOU feel like doing. Because she's a human being with her own feelings. She's already made it clear she hates for him to grope her, so much that she sits on the other side of the couch so he CAN'T grope her. She has to protect herself from him.

THAT is what he needs to fix, to get her to want sex with him.

That's not girly-man. That's intelligent.


----------



## turnera

nirvana said:


> Not any of your business, is it? :smile2:


Er...you ARE here about your wife and your relationship with her, aren't you?


----------



## nirvana

turnera said:


> Er...you ARE here about your wife and your relationship with her, aren't you?


Yes, but I am not here to listen to snarky responses full of assumptions.


----------



## nirvana

Anyway.

Sex is the last thing on my mind right now.I am actively looking for a better job and that is No 1. I have been interviewing and unfortunately got 2 rejects yesterday which was a big mood downer. My wife, instead of asking me what was the matter, launches into a tantrum about how the "house is silent" and seems to believe that I am in my mood to punish her in some way. To be honest, I am feeling down and am not in a great happy mood. And it is not about her, it is about the interviews. I have not told her about the interview rejects because she will react badly, blame me, compare me with others and I don't need the aggravation. 

I just let her say whatever she wanted because it was obvious she wanted a reaction and pull me into a shouting match. I didn't do any of that which probably angered her more. 

Now she wants us to go on a vacation and accuses me of being in this difficult situation for years and years. I just discuss my career issues with some close friends and my parents and it's much better that way. I get some encouragement and some advice and none of the attitude.


----------



## nirvana

turnera said:


> Then stop saying nonsensical things like she'd better reciprocate.
> 
> Now, if you were saying if she doesn't reciprocate, I'll accept she's not into me and start looking to separate, I'd respect that response.
> 
> ETA: Just so you know, if SHE were here posting, ASKING for advice for a bad marriage, we would be telling her two things:
> (1) You MUST communicate what you're unhappy about because he probably doesn't know and he can't fix what he doesn't know.
> (2) You can't just stop having sex with your husband just because you're unhappy. I mean, you CAN, but doing that will drive him crazy and he'll end up either becoming clingy, cheating to get that sex, or divorcing you.
> 
> But she's not here. So we're trying to fix it from YOUR side, and what we're telling you nearly always works. And we have years of experience, hundreds of men in your exact same position, to know.


I am talking about reciprocation with love and affection. And respect. Not with sex. 

Like I said, sex is not one of my worries right now. If she cannot respect me and empathize with my situation, she cannot expect it either.

You and some others seem to look at this only from the sex angle. That is part of it, bit just a part.


----------



## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> Yes, but I am not here to listen to snarky responses full of assumptions.


It is not at all uncommon for people to come here, say they want help, and then work like hell to avoid understanding the advice that is given.


----------



## turnera

nirvana said:


> I am talking about reciprocation with love and affection. And respect. Not with sex.


I knew what you meant. And you are still talking as though if you do A, you EXPECT her to then do B. 

And we keep trying to tell you, you need to make these changes for YOU, to become a better all-around person. More aware. Less reactive. Less needy. Smarter in your steps. With her or without her, you need to learn this stuff; we all do. 

You've reached a point where she has her own set of resentments just like you have. But you are in your own corner, her enemy, and you don't see or care about HER resentments. You just want her to be what you want her to be.

And it doesn't work that way. She's her own human being with her own feelings, resentments, fears, angers, wishes...and seemingly just as unhappy as YOU are.

So you're here getting advice. And we're telling you that if SHE is unhappy with you, no amount of you wanting her to change is going to make a difference. And if she's unhappy with you, usually the FIRST thing to do with women is the sex. So find out why she's unhappy with you and change YOU - which you should want to do anyway, not just to get a response from her.

Should she be caring why you are unhappy? Of course. But she's not here asking for advice. You are. So unless you want to tell her about TAM and convince her to come here for advice, all we can do is tell you what works to get women back in to their marriage - communication, strength, compassion...on YOUR part.


----------



## turnera

What kind of work are you looking for? Are you in the US?


----------



## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> It is not at all uncommon for people to come here, say they want help, and then work like hell to avoid understanding the advice that is given.


Where did that happen? turnera told me about the groping and I completely agreed, confessed that I do that, and agreed that that could be turning my wife off and resolved not to, and have not done any of that in about a week.

How is that avoiding advice? 

What annoys me here is some members taking a grain of info and extrapolating and making me into some sort of evil sex maniac. Some fellow even claimed that I hated my wife and he was "CLEARLY" knew so. I don't like some behaviors of hers and i am sure she doesn't like some of mine. That does not mean that I hate her. If I did, I would have left.

This sort of thing needs to be avoided.


----------



## nirvana

turnera said:


> What kind of work are you looking for? Are you in the US?


Software Tech Management.
My city (in the US) is not a good place for this. I need to move to the Bay Area. But since i don't live there, it's hard as I am not local. Which leads to frustration.


----------



## nirvana

turnera said:


> I knew what you meant. And you are still talking as though if you do A, you EXPECT her to then do B.
> 
> And we keep trying to tell you, you need to make these changes for YOU, to become a better all-around person. More aware. Less reactive. Less needy. Smarter in your steps. With her or without her, you need to learn this stuff; we all do.
> 
> You've reached a point where she has her own set of resentments just like you have. But you are in your own corner, her enemy, and you don't see or care about HER resentments. You just want her to be what you want her to be.
> 
> And it doesn't work that way. She's her own human being with her own feelings, resentments, fears, angers, wishes...and seemingly just as unhappy as YOU are.
> 
> So you're here getting advice. And we're telling you that if SHE is unhappy with you, no amount of you wanting her to change is going to make a difference. And if she's unhappy with you, usually the FIRST thing to do with women is the sex. So find out why she's unhappy with you and change YOU - which you should want to do anyway, not just to get a response from her.
> 
> Should she be caring why you are unhappy? Of course. But she's not here asking for advice. You are. So unless you want to tell her about TAM and convince her to come here for advice, all we can do is tell you what works to get women back in to their marriage - communication, strength, compassion...on YOUR part.


Agree with everything here.
And I agree, I might come across as needy and I am remedying that. Once my career takes off the way it should, most of these problems should resolve themselves. If I am happier, she is proud of me, she is happy etc etc.


----------



## turnera

nirvana said:


> Agree with everything here.
> And I agree, I might come across as needy and I am remedying that. Once my career takes off the way it should, *most of these problems should resolve themselves*. If I am happier, she is proud of me, she is happy etc etc.


Huh? What happened to all the stuff we've been talking about regarding your relationship? She's not just unhappy because of your job. She's unhappy because of you. Just getting a great job, or buffing up your body, isn't going to make her forget whatever else she's unhappy about with you.


----------



## nirvana

In the end, we both have to improve ourselves. This cannot be one sided. I will make the changes that I need to make and then it is up to her if she wants to improve herself or not. It's not like she has a dozen "opportunities" out there either. If she does, then so do I. She loves her kids a lot and deep down she knows she has a good thing going here and would not want to upset that.
Beyond that, it's all in the hands of fate. There is only so much one can do if the other person is intent on destruction.

In any case, thanks to all for your responses. I have cut back on the compliments though they were genuine, but I was feeling that they were not valued the way I want it to be. Its like touching, it you touch all the time, then it lessens the impact. Demand and supply. And treat others how they treat you.


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## Morcoll

Beyond that, it's all in the hands of fate. There is only so much one can do if the other person is intent on destruction.

******************

So, which one of you is intent on destruction?


----------



## Mostlycontent

Morcoll said:


> what if the husband is an a-hole who CLEARLY only wants her for sex and frankly appears to have no other interest in her? what if she doesn't feel love?
> 
> She should just have sex b/c that's what wives do? Well, that sounds fulfilling.
> 
> Clearly OPs wife has lost attraction for him and a lot of it likely has to do with the way he treats her. She probably KNOWS that all he wants when he does ANYTHING for her is to be rewarded with sex, and that is extremely unsexy.


I would ask why the wife would marry a man that she thought was an A-Hole in the first place. If things changed, I would then ask myself what I did to cause the situation to change. What was my part? 

Did I become less affectionate? Did I become consumed with the kids and ignore my husband? Clearly, she is partly responsible for the change in the marriage. If it has always been this way then I would wonder why she married him in the first place. That's completely on her.

I know some women marry with the expectation of changing the guy into their ideal husband but that's not fair to expect such things.


----------



## Mostlycontent

turnera said:


> From what I can tell, the ONLY need of his that is NOT being met is the sex one. He's never complained, that I recall, about anything else, correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> And if that's the case, then he needs to understand that most females tie emotional attraction to sex. And most females stop HAVING sex when the emotional attraction is broken.
> 
> Thus, if he wants sex, he needs to address where/when/how that emotional attraction got broken. And from what he's described, a lot of it has to do with him pushing for sex, groping her like a tomato, and ignoring what she tells him.
> 
> So that's what we're addressing...to HELP him get that need (sex) met. He can't FORCE her to want to screw him. He CAN change HIMSELF back to the person she wanted to screw.



If I recall correctly, he appears to be lacking sex and more importantly, any real affection from her. I understand her side of things but completely detaching from him physically is NOT the way to solve it, unless you wish to send your husband into the arms of another woman.

Again, both sides need to do their part. According to him, the kids seem to be her priority and he sometimes feels like he's just a meal ticket. That is completely and 100% on her. She needs to change that. It's not fair and it's not right.

I think what many are missing is that he can't become her priority again unless she decides to make it so. A lot of women fall into this trap and then the marriage becomes strained as a result, which is ultimately detrimental to the kids. Imagine that.

The spouse has to be first and then everything works as it should from there.


----------



## Morcoll

Mostlycontent said:


> I would ask why the wife would marry a man that she thought was an A-Hole in the first place. If things changed, I would then ask myself what I did to cause the situation to change. What was my part?
> 
> Did I become less affectionate? Did I become consumed with the kids and ignore my husband? Clearly, she is partly responsible for the change in the marriage. If it has always been this way then I would wonder why she married him in the first place. That's completely on her.
> 
> I know some women marry with the expectation of changing the guy into their ideal husband but that's not fair to expect such things.


Apparently she doesn't care as much as he does, but then again he doesn't care so much about HER as he does about having sex with her. 

If she is not attracted to her husband, which she obviously is not, then what exactly is she questioning? What SHE did to make herself not attracted to him? 

Your post does not make any sense, frankly. I know you and OP want to find a way to blame her but he is not an attractive partner, and from these posts, it is likely because he only does anything as a way to get her to have sex with him. Does he care about HER? I cant tell. Does he like HER? not much here about that. If he doesn't give a sh** her, judges her, resents her, treats her only like an object, why should she change again? I would stay away from him as well (regardless of how much money he makes).


----------



## Mostlycontent

Morcoll said:


> Apparently she doesn't care as much as he does, but then again he doesn't care so much about HER as he does about having sex with her.
> 
> If she is not attracted to her husband, which she obviously is not, then what exactly is she questioning? What SHE did to make herself not attracted to him?
> 
> Your post does not make any sense, frankly. I know you and OP want to find a way to blame her but he is not an attractive partner, and from these posts, it is likely because he only does anything as a way to get her to have sex with him. Does he care about HER? I cant tell. Does he like HER? not much here about that. If he doesn't give a sh** her, judges her, resents her, treats her only like an object, why should she change again? I would stay away from him as well (regardless of how much money he makes).



You're making an awful lot of assumptions. You know, huh? I'm sorry if you can't understand my previous post. I made it as simple and straightforward as possible.

I also stated that marriage requires effort from both sides. It is rarely, if ever, only one person's fault. I'm just pointing out the obvious. 

I'm sure OP cares about his wife but if she's cut off all affection and sex, for the most part, she's not likely to get a favorable response from him, or any other man for that matter.

I'm stating that she also needs to make some changes. I've been married a long time and understand this better than most...it appears.


----------



## Morcoll

Ummmm...sure buddy. 

The biggest assumption on this thread so far is from you: I'm sure OP cares about his wife


----------



## Spitfire

Look, work with what she's told you. She thinks you treat her like an object. Don't defend yourself. What can you do to change her view of you? You need a complete change of attitude. You need to be more than a bread winner. You need to reconnect with her emotionally. This isn't being a *****. It's fulfilling her needs.


----------



## turnera

Mostlycontent said:


> I would ask why the wife would marry a man that she thought was an A-Hole in the first place. If things changed, I would then ask myself what I did to cause the situation to change. What was my part?
> 
> Did I become less affectionate? Did I become consumed with the kids and ignore my husband? Clearly, she is partly responsible for the change in the marriage. If it has always been this way then I would wonder why she married him in the first place. That's completely on her.
> 
> I know some women marry with the expectation of changing the guy into their ideal husband but that's not fair to expect such things.


Of course she didn't think he was an a-hole in the first place. Just like he didn't think she'd withhold sex. People change. We all do. We become used to our partners, the PEA lust chemicals fade after the first few years, we take each other for granted, our communication tanks, we build resentments, we start blaming everything on the other partner, and voila! there you are - right where OP is. It happens to probably 80% of all marriages. Those who are smart enough to either prevent that or repair that can keep up a good marriage. 

But it requires ONE of them to learn, since we don't come with manuals; 95% of the people out there don't go to forums, have never heard all this stuff...they just know they're miserable. So the one person coming to a place like this and learning has to be the one to go FIRST.

If he'd just read HNHN, maybe a few other things that describe what he's going through, it would make sense to him. He'd SEE the things he could be changing that would bring about a change in HER. 

Instead, he's just looking for people like you who cheer him on and tell him it's all the woman's fault, how dare she withhold sex, what a b*tch! Because that way, he doesn't have to look at HIS side of the street.

BTDT. When I first came to forums, I was convinced my H was abusive. All his fault I was so miserable. People tried to tell me to look at MY stuff. How dare they! Couldn't they see he was just being a jerk? Took me a good couple of years before I was ready, so I know what he's going through. I finally read HNHN, followed the instructions, and he responded IMMEDIATELY. It never occurred to me that he was just as miserable with ME as I was with HIM. So when I changed, he lapped it up and started being nice again.

That's what we're trying to tell him. Yes, she needs to change. No, he can't MAKE her change or even make her WANT to change. But he CAN clean up his side of the street and become who and what she wants to be with; once that happens, she'll be all too happy to please him, so she can keep him. At this stage, it sounds like she couldn't care less if he's around, that she thinks the problems are all his fault. If he stops being the problem, ANY of the problem, that'll go away. And he'll likely get everything he wants from her. She'll WANT to please him. But he has to be worth pleasing. And that means eliminating his Love Busters and meeting HER Emotional Needs (not what he assumes are her needs - her Love Languages). 

He's starting to do that - no longer groping, etc. But there's a lot more to their situation that needs addressed. And change on her part isn't going to happen overnight. There can be no 'I'm doing this so she'd better reciprocate.' He has to change because it's the right thing to do, because he loves her, and wants her to be happy. The rest will come.


----------



## Spitfire

It isn't easy. you can't go about it in this "If I do X she should do Y" mentality. You have to go all in. She will notice the change and hopefully will begin to change herself.


----------



## Mostlycontent

turnera said:


> Of course she didn't think he was an a-hole in the first place. Just like he didn't think she'd withhold sex. People change. We all do. We become used to our partners, the PEA lust chemicals fade after the first few years, we take each other for granted, our communication tanks, we build resentments, we start blaming everything on the other partner, and voila! there you are - right where OP is. It happens to probably 80% of all marriages. Those who are smart enough to either prevent that or repair that can keep up a good marriage.
> 
> But it requires ONE of them to learn, since we don't come with manuals; 95% of the people out there don't go to forums, have never heard all this stuff...they just know they're miserable. So the one person coming to a place like this and learning has to be the one to go FIRST.
> 
> If he'd just read HNHN, maybe a few other things that describe what he's going through, it would make sense to him. He'd SEE the things he could be changing that would bring about a change in HER.
> 
> Instead, he's just looking for people like you who cheer him on and tell him it's all the woman's fault, how dare she withhold sex, what a b*tch! Because that way, he doesn't have to look at HIS side of the street.
> 
> BTDT. When I first came to forums, I was convinced my H was abusive. All his fault I was so miserable. People tried to tell me to look at MY stuff. How dare they! Couldn't they see he was just being a jerk? Took me a good couple of years before I was ready, so I know what he's going through. I finally read HNHN, followed the instructions, and he responded IMMEDIATELY. It never occurred to me that he was just as miserable with ME as I was with HIM. So when I changed, he lapped it up and started being nice again.
> 
> That's what we're trying to tell him. Yes, she needs to change. No, he can't MAKE her change or even make her WANT to change. But he CAN clean up his side of the street and become who and what she wants to be with; once that happens, she'll be all too happy to please him, so she can keep him. At this stage, it sounds like she couldn't care less if he's around, that she thinks the problems are all his fault. If he stops being the problem, ANY of the problem, that'll go away. And he'll likely get everything he wants from her. She'll WANT to please him. But he has to be worth pleasing. And that means eliminating his Love Busters and meeting HER Emotional Needs (not what he assumes are her needs - her Love Languages).
> 
> He's starting to do that - no longer groping, etc. But there's a lot more to their situation that needs addressed. And change on her part isn't going to happen overnight. There can be no 'I'm doing this so she'd better reciprocate.' He has to change because it's the right thing to do, because he loves her, and wants her to be happy. The rest will come.


Two things here; first, he has mentioned the things that he needs to change. He has admitted fault in this equation. Second, I didn't say that it was all her fault, now did I? Reading comprehension is your friend.

I honestly don't know how some here present an honest argument when they misrepresent what the other posters are saying. I have said repeatedly that it is a two-sided problem and both need to do their part.

All the rhetoric up to this point doesn't seem to find any fault with her and that's just ridiculous and wrong.


----------



## Mostlycontent

Morcoll said:


> Ummmm...sure buddy.
> 
> The biggest assumption on this thread so far is from you: I'm sure OP cares about his wife


Uh, it was you that was assuming that he only wanted sex and didn't care a lick for his wife. Do you even comprehend anything you read?

Further, how long have you been married and how many times? You seem to think you know what this guy should do but are you credible?


----------



## turnera

Mostlycontent said:


> All the rhetoric up to this point doesn't seem to find any fault with her and that's just ridiculous and wrong.


It's not our job to find fault with her. Unless he gives us concrete details about things she does wrong, other than no sex and being unhappy with him, what SHE does has no bearing on what HE needs to do to fix his side.

If he were to tell us 'wife does ABC, we could give him steps to take to either mitigate it or deal with it.' 

But he's telling us she doesn't want sex. THAT is the problem we're dealing with in this thread - as a corollary to 'too many compliments.' So that is what we're giving him advice about. Women stop wanting to have sex when they (1) lose respect for their man, (2) get too many Love Busters from their man, (3) take their man for granted after he's set her up on a pedestal. So we're giving him advice on how to fix THAT problem. It matters not one bit what she may or may not be doing in the marriage. That's a whole other ball o' wax, and he's welcome to approach us for advice on how to deal with any other issues he has with her.

But telling him that she has to work, too, or she has to care more, or she has to be willing to give it up is pointless, since he cannot control her. What he CAN control is what HE does and what, thus, will have an effect on her.

Nobody is trying to paint all women white and all men black. She could be Cruela DeVille for all we know. She could be Mother Teresa. It matters not, because the issue at hand is that his wife is.not.happy.with.him and thus gives him no sex.

We are giving him concrete, doable, productive, and EFFECTIVE steps to take that over time have a very good success rate on giving him what he wants - sex with his wife.


----------



## nirvana

Mostlycontent said:


> Two things here; first, he has mentioned the things that he needs to change. He has admitted fault in this equation. Second, I didn't say that it was all her fault, now did I? Reading comprehension is your friend.
> 
> I honestly don't know how some here present an honest argument when they misrepresent what the other posters are saying. I have said repeatedly that it is a two-sided problem and both need to do their part.
> 
> All the rhetoric up to this point doesn't seem to find any fault with her and that's just ridiculous and wrong.


ha!
Mostlycontent, don't worry about such posters. What I do is I take from them what is good (like some honest feedback) and ignore the nonsense which unfortunately is part of the package. As you say here, I have mentioned the things I need to change. And this person here is still hammering me on the head and lying. Can I change her/him? No, so I just ignore such posts.

Many posters come in with a lot of baggage of their own and hate the opposite gender, and are looking to unload, so I take into consideration also. That said, this is a good forum but one has to be patient and ignore the rabblerousers.


----------



## nirvana

Mostlycontent said:


> Uh, it was you that was assuming that he only wanted sex and didn't care a lick for his wife. Do you even comprehend anything you read?
> 
> Further, how long have you been married and how many times? You seem to think you know what this guy should do but are you credible?


Looks like this person has hacked into my mind just like those hackers into celeb's iCloud accounts.
He knows me more than I know myself!


----------



## Morcoll

turnera said:


> It's not our job to find fault with her. Unless he gives us concrete details about things she does wrong, other than no sex and being unhappy with him, what SHE does has no bearing on what HE needs to do to fix his side.
> 
> If he were to tell us 'wife does ABC, we could give him steps to take to either mitigate it or deal with it.'
> 
> But he's telling us she doesn't want sex. THAT is the problem we're dealing with in this thread - as a corollary to 'too many compliments.' So that is what we're giving him advice about. Women stop wanting to have sex when they (1) lose respect for their man, (2) get too many Love Busters from their man, (3) take their man for granted after he's set her up on a pedestal. So we're giving him advice on how to fix THAT problem. It matters not one bit what she may or may not be doing in the marriage. That's a whole other ball o' wax, and he's welcome to approach us for advice on how to deal with any other issues he has with her.
> 
> But telling him that she has to work, too, or she has to care more, or she has to be willing to give it up is pointless, since he cannot control her. What he CAN control is what HE does and what, thus, will have an effect on her.
> 
> Nobody is trying to paint all women white and all men black. She could be Cruela DeVille for all we know. She could be Mother Teresa. It matters not, because the issue at hand is that his wife is.not.happy.with.him and thus gives him no sex.
> 
> We are giving him concrete, doable, productive, and EFFECTIVE steps to take that over time have a very good success rate on giving him what he wants - sex with his wife.


This is pretty much the gist of it. And what OP and Mostly Content (note the 'mostly') are ignoring. What was that about reading comprehension again?


----------



## nirvana

So yesterday she comes in from work and announced "the car is out of gas". And of course, that means I am to fill her car up. Requesting me to do it seems to be beneath her. In any case, I fill her car up every week so I went out at 8pm and did it. No thank you or anything. I also ensure her phone is charged every night. Her style seems to be to announce the problem but not request me to do something about it. That way she will make me volunteer and she won't feel like I did her a favor. "The kids are bored at home" means "Take them to the park". 

So this morning she comes charging in and says that she is planning on taking the kids to the Dinosaur movie and asks about what I was going to do. I told her quietly that this was not the way to ask me and definitely not the way to arrange a family outing. She was free to go with the kids if she wanted. Then she launches into a tirade about how I never want to go anywhere, how I am "silent" etc etc. To me, it came across as very selfish. Overall, I am feeling a bit low because my interviews have not progressed and I have noticed that she has not bothered to ask. As long as the paychecks come in, why bother? Then she gets in my face to complain that we don't go out on vacations and what a boring person I am. I said she was free to make fun friends if she wanted. She doesn't seem to care for the stress that I am going through and justifies it as "you are always in some stress or the other". 

At this point, I am fighting battles at several fronts with no support from my wife at all. In the end it boils down to whether she wants to be in a happy marriage and focus on me also, or just focus on the kids 100% and complain about me all the time. I can at the most do my part, but she has to pull too. Who knows where this will head to?

She has noticed that I am not being very talkative or affectionate (touchy/feely) but I don't feel like talking much with her right now. If she wants to be with me, she is free to, or if she wants to leave, she can go. I have to make sure that I am not clingy or smothering her and I am definitely not these days.

I am healthy now, but what happens if I fall sick with something serious? She will probably berate me and curse me and her luck. She definitely lacks empathy that women are supposed to have a lot of.


----------



## Catherine602

You articulate the problems in your marriage but I wonder if you really understand them. Your wife is not the problem, you are. She sounds totally absorbed with her life and that of the children. She seems to treat you as if you are superfluous, you make life easy for the family but otherwise, not very important. 

You are central to the stability and happiness of your family *along* with your wife. The way I see it is that you have allowed her to define your role as you have defined her role. If you really wanted, you could turn this around. Try reading over your posts and identify all of the areas where you capitulated to her vision of your role in the family. What could you have done differently? What would a person who knew their proper value and the value of their spouse have done? What are your plans for future opportunities to claim your proper place and to give your wife her due? It's on you. It will not be easy but with concerted effort, you will succeed.

_________________________________
A related issue. You have very little respect for women in general and therefore little respect for your wife. She does not respect you either and she treats you the way you treat her. You get what you give. When you learn to respect women and your wife as a person, she may respect you in return. 

You are full of preconceived stereotypical ideas about how women should be. Women are as individual as men. You want your wife to treat you like you matter, right? You want her to see you as more than a provider, more than the stereotypical role for men. Yet you can not give that to her. 

You need to overhaul your stilted, dismissive and self-centered view of women. That will be very difficult since you receive a great deal of support in your culture for these attitudes. You can keep them and be miserable or rethink them. Are they getting you what you want in life. 

If you want your wife to see you as a person, to be sympathetic to your struggles as a man and provider then you need to do the same for her. You don't like what female poster are writing but it is exactly what you need to hear.


----------



## turnera

So, you have her on a pedestal (you do all her work for her), yet you resent her when you do it.

Stop doing it!

You're either an introvert so you're quiet, or you're depressed so you're quiet, but when she tells you it makes her unhappy, you do nothing about it.

When she makes plans, instead of engaging with her about it and setting it up so you ALL get enjoyment, you criticize her about it (that's a Nice Guy stunt), so she defends herself, and you fight. And you both resent each other.

It bothers you that she doesn't come out and ask for something, but you don't SAY SO, and you instead just go do it. And pile one more heaping pile of resentment at her on top of your old ones. When you could have simply said "I'm not going to fill your car any more unless you ask me to do it; you're welcome to do it yourself."

Everything you just described are situations that you could have EASILY turned around. Yet you didn't. You just nursed your resentment instead of looking at how YOU could have done something differently. 

And on top of that, you are going INTO this ready to find fault with her. Believe me, BTDT (and it got me nowhere). Look at how you describe her:
announced
beneath her
charging in
launches into a tirade
justifies it
complain about me all the time

You are determined that she carries the fault in this marriage. Instead of seeing how YOU can change things so that she then also wants to change things, you sit there and tell us how horrible she is, you make Disrespectful Judgments (assuming you know what she's thinking) that could be keeping you two from being on the same page, and then you show attitude (boils down to whether SHE wants to fix things) that, while it makes YOU temporarily feel good, does absolutely nothing toward fixing your marriage.

From what I can tell, the only thing you've done so far to change is to stop being clingy and stop groping. And, once you've done that, you sit there and feel sorry for yourself that she hasn't magically turned into a happy, loving wife.

It just doesn't work that way.

We've given you tools to fix things. Hopefully, you'll eventually be ready to try them. If she doesn't divorce you first.

btw, have you looked into some temporary anti-depressants? That may be part of the problem.


----------



## nirvana

Catherine602 said:


> You articulate the problems in your marriage but I wonder if you really understand them. Your wife is not the problem, you are. She sounds totally absorbed with her life and that of the children. She seems to treat you as if you are superfluous, you make life easy for the family but otherwise, not very important.
> 
> You are central to the stability and happiness of your family *along* with your wife. The way I see it is that you have allowed her to define your role as you have defined her role. If you really wanted, you could turn this around. Try reading over your posts and identify all of the areas where you capitulated to her vision of your role in the family. What could you have done differently? What would a person who knew their proper value and the value of their spouse have done? What are your plans for future opportunities to claim your proper place and to give your wife her due? It's on you. It will not be easy but with concerted effort, you will succeed.
> 
> _________________________________
> A related issue. You have very little respect for women in general and therefore little respect for your wife. She does not respect you either and she treats you the way you treat her. You get what you give. When you learn to respect women and your wife as a person, she may respect you in return.
> 
> You are full of preconceived stereotypical ideas about how women should be. Women are as individual as men. You want your wife to treat you like you matter, right? You want her to see you as more than a provider, more than the stereotypical role for men. Yet you can not give that to her.
> 
> You need to overhaul your stilted, dismissive and self-centered view of women. That will be very difficult since you receive a great deal of support in your culture for these attitudes. You can keep them and be miserable or rethink them. Are they getting you what you want in life.
> 
> If you want your wife to see you as a person, to be sympathetic to your struggles as a man and provider then you need to do the same for her. You don't like what female poster are writing but it is exactly what you need to hear.


You are wrong in some above and right in some. 

Anyway, like I said earlier, it works both ways. If she wants to stay married, she has to respect me. If she cannot, then she can find her own way through life.


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## nirvana

The weekend is here and I am expecting more passive aggressive behavior. I called up my mom in India this morning, just to talk about stuff. I'm going through lows on several fronts and it's too bad that I cannot discuss with the wife and I don't need more negativity. Discussed my career situation, life etc. She told me to just keep calm in every situation and focus on what I need to focus on, so that is what I will do and have been doing. 
In any case, I am NOT tolerating any disrespect from my wife. I don't treat her like a doormat like her dad treats her mom, but I am not going to be treated like crap either.

If she doesn't appreciate what fate has dealt her (me), she has options to get a "better deal". Actually everyone has that option.


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## turnera

So how, specifically, are you going to let her know this?


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## nirvana

turnera said:


> So how, specifically, are you going to let her know this?


I am sure she knows it. Everyone does. We all have options. If she thought she had a better option elsewhere she would have gone by now.


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## turnera

nirvana said:


> I am sure she knows it. Everyone does. We all have options. If she thought she had a better option elsewhere she would have gone by now.


That's the single biggest line of baloney I've ever read here. And I've been around here a LOT.

Do you have a girl lined up or something? You trying to justify leaving her?

What a ridiculous answer.

You act like a Nice Guy by doing everything for her and then resenting HER for it, you paint her black, you say NOTHING about how unhappy you are, you treat her like a vessel for sex and gripe because she's not hot and heavy for you, you're unemployed and not contributing to the family income, you ignore HER unhappiness and what she tells you is wrong, and instead of doing anything to IMPROVE your marriage, you just sit there on your ass and say 'well if SHE wants ME, she'll step up and FIX all this.'

Oh, and then you DARE say if she had any better options, she'd be gone, but she DOESN'T, so she'd better suck it up and start kissing my ass.

SMH

I hope you enjoy divorce.


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## nirvana

Now you are back to being Bad Turnera again.


I am unemployed?? This shows that you don't read before posting. I make 6 figures in my job and have been unemployed only for 1 calendar month in 17 years. I started making 6 figs from 2006 onwards. I am trying to get a BETTER job with BETTER prospects and BETTER (higher) salary. In other words, I am trying to improve myself. Get it?

Looks like you are unhappy and hate men in general which is why your posts are so negative and hateful.

Goodbye.


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## Morcoll

turnera said:


> So how, specifically, are you going to let her know this?


By being passive aggressive. Duh. Havent you been reading his posts? 

J/k. I know you have. He is not getting it. At all.


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## turnera

nirvana said:


> Now you are back to being Bad Turnera again.
> 
> 
> I am unemployed?? This shows that you don't read before posting. I make 6 figures in my job and have been unemployed only for 1 calendar month in 17 years. I started making 6 figs from 2006 onwards. I am trying to get a BETTER job with BETTER prospects and BETTER (higher) salary. In other words, I am trying to improve myself. Get it?
> 
> Looks like you are unhappy and hate men in general which is why your posts are so negative and hateful.
> 
> Goodbye.


My apologies for misunderstanding your looking for a job with being unemployed. 

Otherwise, my advice sticks. You're your own worst enemy.

You're going to believe SHE has to change...all the way to divorce court.

I don't hate men. In fact, I am usually harder on the women here than the men, because I understand them. But you came here hoping to hear how to make your WIFE change (just like I did X years ago), and don't want to hear anything else. 

Go back and read my posts. They are full of steps YOU can take, to get HER to want to change. But it's obvious you don't want to hear that. Again, BTDT. It took me two years to be willing to hear the advice and stop fighting and stop blaming my spouse, so I understand. 

You don't want to try to understand how women think and feel? Then don't. Just understand that if you're unwilling to see this from HER side, you will CONTINUE to get NOTHING you want.

Your choice.


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## Idyit

Nirvana,

I love you like a brother from a different mother. Buuut.. Sometimes a 2x4 is in order.

Tanaka has a message for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQArDMKdSVc

~ Passio


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## BetrayedDad

turnera said:


> I hope you enjoy divorce.


What divorce LOL? He doesn't even have the guts to tell her to fill up her own damn gas tank. You think he's going to have her served?

He'll put up with her crap forever because he's a passive aggressive doormat. He just came to TAM to vent. This one reeks of lost cause.


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## turnera

No, I'm talking about when SHE gets fed up and leaves. She's clearly unhappy with him. They are BOTH full of resentment and unhappiness.

And we all know that when men start doing everything for the women, the women start sliding down that slippery slope to neglect, cheating, or leaving. Women have to have respect for their men, and he continues to do what she wants, say nothing, and stay noncommunicative. And blame it on her.

Their situation is spiraling down the drain. And most people aren't enlightened enough to realize it, they just sit there and experience it, and get more and more unhappy til one of them just leaves, because most people don't realize you can change the way you 'do' your marriage, to get better results. That there are books you can read (HNHN, I believe, has been suggested, for starters). Counselors to visit. Methods to change.

nirvana could be changing their dynamics, but he prefers to just sit there, do it all full of resentment, and wait for her to 'get it' and change. But most likely, she'll do what most unhappy wives do, and divorce. Or continue to make his life hell.


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## LisaKane

This is not about compliments...I feel like I am a victim of false advertising.


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## Catherine602

nirvana said:


> If she doesn't appreciate what fate has dealt her (me), she has options to get a "better deal". Actually everyone has that option.


Actually, your wife could not have done better in the marriage crap shoot. She is very fortunate to have a man like you. Too bad *you* don't know your own value or your wife's. Your seemingly careless responses to her is a sign that you have been giving too much and now you resent her for it. It's partially her fault but mostly it's yours. 

How are you going to get your wife to see you for what you are? Treat her the way you want to be treated, with respect. Unfortunately, talking about your problems at work may not be the way because it may be anxiety-provoking for her. That's not too uncommon between husband and wife. You can discuss plans for the future with her when you have confidence that you can make them real. Talking to your mother was a very good move. 

Try to take things in little steps. Work on respect. How do you get it and give it? Not by demands but by boundaries and consequences commiserate with the offense. Don't kiss her azz, don't back down and stop rewarding her for treating you badly. Remember to give as much as she gives you. However, if you don't recognize and appreciate what your wife does for you and the family, then don't expect her to appreciate or respect you. She is not more worthy than you but neither is she less worthy than you. 

There are ways to deal with passive-aggressive behavior - google it to find out. You may recognize your own PA tendencies so it should not be hard to learn how to handle things. Start with controlling your tendencies before looking at her. Calm down and vent here but don't let her see you fall apart. She has to see that you can make your way in the world without her, if needed. She also has options, she may be able to do quite well without you so you don't really have the upper hand. You have as much, if not more, to lose if the marriage tanks.


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## turnera

I don't think nirvana's being a jerk. I just think he's a typical Nice Guy who's dug himself into a corner and doesn't see how to get out of it.


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## Spitfire

Your wife is telling you what she wants for crying out loud! When she says "We're going to a movie. What are you going to do?" You say, "That sounds like a lot of fun! Why don't we stop at Chuck E Cheese for lunch on the way". Good grief! And then you start incorporating fun family things to do like going to a zoo, a park or some other things. AND YOU ENJOY IT BECAUSE IT'S FUN!!!!


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## nirvana

Personal, you have issues. Go get yourself checked, please (at a mental facility).

I didn't even read the crap you posted after the first line. I bet your spouse hates you and deservedly so.


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## nirvana

turnera said:


> I don't think nirvana's being a jerk. I just think he's a typical Nice Guy who's dug himself into a corner and doesn't see how to get out of it.


I think you are right above.

BTW, we went to see the Dinosaur movie, the 4 of us. I got her car detailed and its nice and clean. I had bought it a few months ago, so used it today. We might see an Indian movie tonight.

She tried the usual angle of comparing me with my son's dad who took him to play tennis but I ignored it. I could compare her with the hot neighbor but I am not playing that game. She tried it twice. Later that evening, I did play badminton with my son though. She needs to know that comparing me with someone else will NOT work.

Yeah. No More Nice Guy.


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## nirvana

Catherine602 said:


> Actually, your wife could not have done better in the marriage crap shoot. She is very fortunate to have a man like you. Too bad *you* don't know your own value or your wife's. Your seemingly careless responses to her is a sign that you have been giving too much and now you resent her for it. It's partially her fault but mostly it's yours.
> 
> How are you going to get your wife to see you for what you are? Treat her the way you want to be treated, with respect. Unfortunately, talking about your problems at work may not be the way because it may be anxiety-provoking for her. That's not too uncommon between husband and wife. You can discuss plans for the future with her when you have confidence that you can make them real. Talking to your mother was a very good move.
> 
> Try to take things in little steps. Work on respect. How do you get it and give it? Not by demands but by boundaries and consequences commiserate with the offense. Don't kiss her azz, don't back down and stop rewarding her for treating you badly. Remember to give as much as she gives you. However, if you don't recognize and appreciate what your wife does for you and the family, then don't expect her to appreciate or respect you. She is not more worthy than you but neither is she less worthy than you.
> 
> There are ways to deal with passive-aggressive behavior - google it to find out. You may recognize your own PA tendencies so it should not be hard to learn how to handle things. Start with controlling your tendencies before looking at her. Calm down and vent here but don't let her see you fall apart. She has to see that you can make your way in the world without her, if needed. She also has options, she may be able to do quite well without you so you don't really have the upper hand. You have as much, if not more, to lose if the marriage tanks.


Thanks Catherine.


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## turnera

nirvana said:


> She tried the usual angle of comparing me with my son's dad who took him to play tennis but I ignored it. I could compare her with the hot neighbor but I am not playing that game. She tried it twice.
> 
> Yeah. No More Nice Guy.


Not quite right. But you're getting there.

A Nice Guy might take the bait and snap back. Or he might ignore her and continue the date without her being called out for her bad behavior, so as to not stir up shyte.

A *FORMER *Nice Guy would calmly cut her off and say something like "What you're doing is disrespectful and I don't appreciate it. If you don't stop, I'm going to leave and you can finish the night without me." And if she DID choose to do it again, he would simply get up from where they are, call a cab, and go home.


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## Catherine602

turnera said:


> Not quite right. But you're getting there.
> 
> A Nice Guy might take the bait and snap back. Or he might ignore her and continue the date without her being called out for her bad behavior, so as to not stir up shyte.
> 
> A *FORMER *Nice Guy would calmly cut her off and say something like "What you're doing is disrespectful and I don't appreciate it. If you don't stop, I'm going to leave and you can finish the night without me." And if she DID choose to do it again, he would simply get up from where they are, call a cab, and go home.


:iagree: 
Don't act angry or even bothered by what she says. Stay calm and walk away with a normal gate and calm demeanor. Tell her she can speak to you about her problems when she is in a civil mood. At that time, tell her how you want her to treat you and how you will treat her in response. 

Detailing her car seems like a bid to get her to love you. It's a nice gesture but wait until her behavior is better to do special things. Do them sparingly. Partners are supposed to be good to each other. Stop catering to her. She is not catering to you. It's not tit for tat, it's keeping a balance in the relationship. Otherwise, someone becomes the doormat and the other the judge. Who appointed the judge? You. I can't understand why you would work against your own interest but it happens. 

No wonder you say the things you do about women. You put up with sh!t and internalize the anger. May I repeat, it's not women, it's you. You got this, it can be done because your wife is not so bad. She is immature and a little mean but she loves you. Someone has to set the tone, you seem capable but unschooled. Learn what to do.


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## nirvana

Thanks all.

I have been reading 5 Love Languages for the past few days. Thanks to the person who recommended it.
The example he gives about Bill and Betty could have been Mr and Mrs Nirvana. It's the same situation. And I think that what he says about my wife's Love well being empty is true. I have been doing a lot of things but not the things that she values most that makes her feel loved. "Securing our retirement" does not make her feel loved. My wife has quite clearly said things she wants so I will give it a shot and see if I can remedy that. I'll give it a month and see if there is any improvement from her side. I know she will be suspicious in the beginning but I have to keep at it. Truth be told, she has good reason to, because there have been many times when I have not behaved well. I need to change myself and learn to let go of certain things. Sex is off the table for now and I don't think it is right for now. Her love language is "Quality Time". She wants me to spend time with her and the kids. So I will do it, at least for 30 mins to an hour after work. She wants me around in her sight even if I am busy with some work, so I will be around. My love language is words of affirmation and even though she does not give me any, I've decided to be the first one to reverse this downward spiral and see if I can improve things.

Another thing is I give her compliments on her looks and a few other things, but I don't compliment the things she craves recognition for. In fact she says XYZ praised me and asked how she was able to manage a job, home and kids at the same time. She is pretty, but she is very capable too. She knows she is pretty, but she needs affirmation that she is capable, because of certain things that have happened in her life that makes her crave for that recognition. I need to be giving her that, not someone's mother or some friend. So in simple terms, I need to compliment her on the things she wants recognition for, not the ones I see in front of me. 

I also "judge" and advise her quite a bit and I think this makes her feel like a child. When she makes a mistake, I can sense that her heart is sinking because I will say something. I will layoff on that. Absolutely stop. Also, professionally I can never be successful without her support and encouragement so this will be good for everybody.

I know this process of healing will take longer, but I think I should see some improvement in 4 weeks. I don't want her to withdraw from me anymore. My marriage is worth giving this a shot. I am lucky to have her and I don't want to lose her.


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## turnera

Excellent! (and exactly what we've been telling you all along, lol)

Now, what you're describing, fyi, is the exact same thing that you'd learn in His Needs Her Needs, except Harley calls the LLs Emotional Needs (ENs). Thing is, Harley takes it a step further. He says that, aside from meeting her ENs (speaking her LLs), you ALSO have to be cognizant of your Love Busters (judging her, advising her, complimenting her looks and not her value), and work hard to eliminate them. Perhaps even harder than doing the LLs.

To that end, you can print out the Love Buster questionnaire and ask her to fill it out for you. (you can fill one out, too, if she's open to reading how she LBs you). I would suggest doing that LBQ now, rather than later. Just as you felt you needed to speak the correct LLs, you need to eliminate the correct LBs. Because if you're still LBing her for this or that, and you go and eliminate some OTHER LB, it matters not cos she'll still be resenting you for the ones you're still doing. Make sense?

Love Busters Questionnaire


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## scatty

I second the brilliant turnera on checking out the lovebusters (and all the other free, downloadable materials) on the MB forum. It made our relationship SO much better, we are closer than ever. It really hit home to see IN WRITING what we needed to change.


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## nirvana

Thanks turnera, I will take a look at it when I get back home.

I spent the last few days thinking about this. I make no excuses about my behavior towards her. Yes, she provokes me, does not display any appreciation, but that is no excuse for losing my composure.

Anyway, the past is past and I cannot change it, but I can change the future. It would be very dumb to lose my marriage over what I think is a fixable situation.


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## turnera

I think that if he does the work first, and maybe asks her to do the LBQ, and she starts seeing real results, she will soften, and THEN he can tell her about what he's learned and she'll be receptive to it at that point. Not just yet, though. At least that's how it worked with my H.


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## nirvana

Thanks kristin. Lately I have been feeling that she's forming a wall between herself and me. I am sure the reason is so that she won't be hurt any more. Like I said, she does provoke me but I then I do say some pretty stupid things that make me go WTF when I regain my composure. There's some still love in her heart, but it will die forever unless I do something NOW. My ego will be useless at this point when I am alone.

It is almost July so this is a good time to start. I want check on my progress by the end of July to see if I have been able to do things even if they are one sided at this point. I need to get the ball rolling.

Some areas to improve
1. Compliment her on things that really matter to her. She fishes quite a bit for it. Saying she looks hot/sexy doesn't do it for her. She knows she is all that and does not need that validation. She likes to be told that she is intelligent and capable (which she is). She loves to be told that she is a good mother. She loves to be told that she is great at managing her job + home + kids (which she is), so I will focus on those.

2. No giving free advice or treating her like an errant child. Yes, I do these things. Yesterday, she broke the pressure cooker valve for the umpteenth time by putting less water in it. It never breaks when I do it. She just doesn't seem to get it right, but I just let it go. She probably expected an explosion from me but it did not come.

3. Do things for her and make it clear it is not to get anything. She was super tired yesterday so I gave her a head massage. Then I gave her a back massage. I realized she had taken her bra off, and I would usually cop a feel  , but I resisted the temptation and just stuck to giving her a good massage. Or when I massage her back, I feel the curve of her beautiful sexy back, ooooo! But not this time. She loves my massages. I tried to send in love waves rather than sex waves.

4. Spend visible time with kids. She wants me to spend time with kids, even more than with her. So I will do it and in front of her so she sees it. 

5. Don't argue with her. This is probably the worst one. Sometimes she has some wild ideas which convey good intentions but will not work in real life. Being the engineer that I am, I begin to analyze feasibility and shoot down the idea. This conveys to her that I think she is stupid. Instead, I will let her think about the idea herself and decide if it is good or not. Usually she comes to the right conclusion herself. If I speak up, I become the negative minded person who does not encourage her.

Let's give it a shot for a month and see if I see improvement in her reaction to me. Right now, I get a lot of coldness.


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## turnera

And women notoriously take a LONG time to change their minds. So try to be patient.


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## Catherine602

Nirvana You sound much better in your thinking about your wife. I just want to encourage you to keep the faith. There will be apparent steps backwards at times. You may even revert back to feeling the anger and hopelessness that has plagued you for so long. However, the fact that you have had this mental breakthrough will help pull you through. 

Keep posting with the victories and setbacks, if any. Someone may be able to help. You have the general idea but its the details that can bite you.


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## nirvana

Ok, yesterday I got back from work and she did too and we all spent some time in the living room and I resisted the temptation to go upstairs to do some studying. Then the kids played outside and she went there and I followed and I played some with the kids. Her mood was good. 

She told me about her day at work and I just listened, asked a few questions and did nothing more. Just listened. I slipped in a compliment about how she was managing work, home, kids and she brightened up and said I was lucky. I said I sure was.

Later that night, in bed she again said that she was tired and had body ache. She very rarely asks for a massage, she just says and its a hint for me to do something. So I did, I gave her a massage, brought her close to me and she did not resist. Massaged her back again, found no bra, but did not feel her up though there was the opportunity.  Just massaged her soft back. But I couldn't resist kissing her though.. and she usually says "not now" when she is this tired, but she didn't resist and let me kiss her, though she didn't kiss me back. Maybe some progress. Then as we slept, she held my hand (by herself).

This morning, she was dressing for work in a nice long dress looking smashing and I absolutely had to tell her she looked beautiful and I was lucky to have her. She smiled, and it was a happy smile.

So some positive signs. I hope I am able to maintain this.


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## nirvana

It's been about 3 weeks since and yesterday was the first big problem.

We had been invited by a close friend for their daughter's birthday party at 4:30pm. I had a boy's night out party planned for 6pm which was cutting it close. My wife encouraged me to go, a little bit more than I was expecting. So before the party, she dressed up, looked fabulous and asked me how she looked. I told her she looked very beautiful. She was in a happy mood, calling me with a special love-name she has been using since the early days of our marriage. On the way, she began her nagging. "Talk to everybody, ok?"... "Don't just talk to people you know...". etc etc. I ignored her, I am not a child to be told these things. 

Then at the party, I had no friends other than the host and I talked to him, to another guy I had met at his house a year earlier, and then I got a beer and sat with the dad's of the host and another friend. We chatted for about an hour and the kids were playing in the backyard with water. There were two guys who didn't seem friendly and didn't approach me and I didn't approach them but other than that I talked to everybody. The wives of these guys were friendlier and came and talked to me for a bit. When I was talking to the dads, my wife comes by and says "talk to other people also" and I ignored her because I could not just leave and I didn't feel like talking to the two guys who didn't seem to want to mingle. 

We have a friend who we have known for 12 years who are actually toxic. My wife suffers from very low self esteem (but she compensates with a narcissistic attitude towards me for some reason) as I have mentioned earlier. This toxic friend (husband was traveling and I was chatting with his father who is visiting) asked my wife how our anniversary was. I got my wife flowers, chocolates and took her to a nice restaurant. This toxic friend lives in an townhouse because his lifestyle is to blow up all his money buying expensive Rolex watches ($10k+) and other things and my wife probably felt that she had nothing to gloat about. Now I am not competing with this guy because it is a race to the poorhouse. Remember, my wife did NOTHING for me for our anniversary, she seems to think that it is another day where the man does things for the wife. 

After the party, she had a pissy attitude and began banging stuff at home. I ignored her because I don't want to encourage such behavior. Come and talk to me like an adult. At this point, I had NO idea wtf her problem was. She had her period last week so the crazy behavior should have been over by then. She went to bed, turned the other way without a word. I did not say anything either. Then this morning, the behavior continues so I did not say anything and acted normally, and made coffee for her. My normal behavior most likely pissed her off because her attitude was not making a difference to me. She came up and started her usual whining about "spending time with the children" etc. Now that is her default fall back complaint and what happened at the party had nothing to do with spending time with the children. She accused me of not talking to people and I told her I talked to everyone except those two guys. Then she made fun of the way I was sitting with the dads with a beer "trying to be all macho". Macho?? I was just drinking a damn beer. It's like she is looking for something to fight about. There is no pleasing this crazy woman.

Then later that day she accused me of being "secretive" and said some dirty things that I do not want to post here. I kept reading a book on my iPad and did not reply. She accused me of not letting her drive my BMW and I did not reply. She has never asked me to let her drive it, remember. She doesn't care too much about cars. Then she said I was hiding our finances, but then I tell her about our finances all the time and when we reach certain goals in net worth. She doesn't care too much as long as she gets to spend. Then she began to cry and the torrent of self-praising started. She praised herself on her job, her house keeping, her cooking, her dressing, her looks. She claimed I am lucky that I have a slim wife, and then she says she dresses up for herself, and not for me. She is part of a sporting team and then rudely asks if I am coming to watch her. I said how could she expect me to after all that she said. She said fine and left. 

I am sitting here typing this up and I still don't know WTF is wrong with this woman and why all that drama from yesterday. My guess from past history is that that toxic friend must have said something about our anniversary and made her feel that her husband does not do much for her. She is very sensitive to what people say. 

I don't feel much love for her, at this point. She seems to be a selfish ungrateful person and I am stuck here with her because of the kids. I am not going to make peace because that will just encourage her ugly behavior.


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## turnera

You are not stuck with her.


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## Catherine602

Can you tell her that if she is going to be unpleasant she can go to social events alone.


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## nirvana

Catherine602 said:


> Can you tell her that if she is going to be unpleasant she can go to social events alone.


It's Monday morning and we have been in silent mode for 2 nights and 1 full day. I still don't know what exactly she is mad about. I am not backing down this time to make peace.

I wonder if she has any hormonal issues. She said some pretty nasty unprovoked things yesterday. I just sat back and let her rage on because her usual trick is to bait me into saying something and turning the issue into about what I just said. Is there something that can be checked out?

She signs up for too many things and earlier I would tell her to not take up so many and she would respond with "I will show YOU that I can do it" as if I was a naysayer pulling her down from reaching success. Then she would not be able to do it and then get angry and curse me for not helping out. Nowadays I don't say anything when she signs up for a million things and she cannot do them and then keeps grumbling that she is working "24-7" and how if she won't do it no one else will. And then blame me for not helping out. 

More recently she's gotten arrogant about her job and "her money".


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## turnera

She is acting out her anger and defiance at her own parents, with you. You have become her surrogate channel for rage.

Good job not reacting. If she ever does directly ask you about your 180, simply say "I don't deal with rudeness; if you want to talk, do it with respect."


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## nirvana

turnera said:


> She is acting out her anger and defiance at her own parents, with you. You have become her surrogate channel for rage.
> 
> Good job not reacting. If she ever does directly ask you about your 180, simply say "I don't deal with rudeness; if you want to talk, do it with respect."


Her father does a big show of love with words but in his deeds he falls far short. My wife had a tendency to believe the words rather than actions so his game worked. Her younger sister was downright vicious right from childhood because my wife was better looking and better in school than her but somehow she ended up being high in confidence and my wife ended up being low in confidence. My wife's now knows the true nature of her dad.

What I don't understand here is why this constant anger towards me? She says that I have "always" taunted her for being a SAHM. That is a lie, she was a SAHM for 10 years and only just started working. I paid for her grad school education and that came to about $25k. Wasn't cheap for me in 2002. That should prove that I had confidence in her abilities, but now she turns on me which I don't get. She is trying to portray herself as a self-made woman of sorts, as if she did everything by herself without any help. Her "I will show you!!" attitude makes it clear to me. During our fights over the years I have said some nasty things and so has she, but she keeps bringing it up every time she wants to be angry as some sort of justification for her anger.

She does not have much contact with her parents these days but I don't know why she includes me in the list of people she wants to "show". The biggest problem is a few of her friends in real life who are SAHM who talk as if their lives are heavenly. If someone says "I just tell my husband to take the kids out and I sit and relax" is a trigger that gets her angry at me. There are a few friends on FB who keep posting vacation in europe pictures and that makes her feel her life sucks. Then her sister keeps posting pictures of herself partying and their dad likes it and posts compliments to it and that makes her jealous too.

What is "180"?


----------



## turnera

This isn't about you. It's about her FOO and her unresolved anger at her dad for jerking her around. She'll never move past this stage unless she goes to therapy.


----------



## nirvana

In any case, I did not fall for the bait and escalate. I predict that we will remain in this silent-mode for another 1-2 days and then it will become too much for her and she will try to bait me AGAIN to get me to talk. She will do it by commenting on how much ego I have. Is this how one makes peace? This is her way so it looks like she is the aggrieved party and the victim. So I will react to that by talking about how she behaved and she will go back and talk about how her life has been hell for 10+ years with me dredging up incidents from 2003. As if those have anything to do with what happened over the weekend. This has been her usual modus operandi to muddy the waters and get me to make peace.

Her behavior makes her look very ugly to me now. It's amazing how we see from the mind and heart rather than the eyes.

This time I will just stay silent, play with the kids like I did yesterday and completely ignore her. I will stay silent and only talk when she comes to me and asks the right way.


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## nirvana

She also feel confident about herself these days because of her job and her figure and other things so is kicking the ladder that helped her get there. Maybe she thinks that she has outgrown me?


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## Noble1

Been catching up with your thread here and just wanted to say that I feel for you.

It's a tough choice and your "life" does not seem to be easy.

Hope it all works out for you.

Good luck.


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## TRy

nirvana said:


> She also feel confident about herself these days because of her job and her figure and other things so is kicking the ladder that helped her get there. Maybe she thinks that she has outgrown me?


 The key word is "upgrade". With her job and looks, she now feels that her desirability rating has gone up. If a person feels that their desirability rating is two or more points higher than their spouse's, many begin to consciously or subconsciously think about upgrading.


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## turnera

nirvana said:


> she will try to bait me AGAIN
> 
> she will go back and talk about how her life has been hell for 10+ years with me dredging up incidents from 2003
> 
> This time I will just stay silent, play with the kids like I did yesterday and completely ignore her. I will stay silent and only talk when she comes to me and asks the right way.


I suggest that when she talks about how hell of a life, you calmly say 'you're welcome to leave if you're so unhappy.'


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## Bobby5000

First, warning this could cause more problems. You ever think of talking with your friend's husband or the father and perhaps causing some problems in her house, asking about problems there.


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## nirvana

turnera said:


> I suggest that when she talks about how hell of a life, you calmly say 'you're welcome to leave if you're so unhappy.'


Update.

I just kept to myself yesterday evening. She couldn't take it any longer so she cameby and smiled and hugged me and tickled me just to lighten the mood. I asked her what she wanted. She could not say all she did and behave that way and just want everything to be okay like that. Eventually we talked about what happened at the party that made her change her behavior and as expected she blamed the 10+ years of frustrations and anger that "just came out". Umm... sorry, that is not an answer. What happened AT THE PARTY. Of course, I did not shout at her. This is what she does every time, explain her bad behavior with the same go-to justification. She said I did not spend time with the kids. I said the were playing in the water with the other kids, what was she expecting?? Then she said I did not talk to anyone. I said I talked to everyone except 2 guys who were not very social. I even conversed with their friendly wives. So she looks for the next fake reason and I shut her down. 
I told her to apologize and she did. I told her that saying such things is not acceptable and behaving in such a passive aggressive way will not be tolerated. The next time she does this, she will be on her own and I will not even accept an apology.

The underlying problem is she tries to be a super woman and sign up for a million things like she when was a SAHM and then she fails and gets tired so blames me for not helping. She told me about a dad who "was playing tennis with his son" unlike big bad me, but what about the same dad watching football all day during weekends in the basement? She is a master of picking bits and pieces of people and expecting me to match up. I told her I am the way I am and AM NOT GOING TO CHANGE. You have to accept just like I have accepted you with all your faults (I bet she hated to hear this).

Longer term, I have to just tune her out when she gets pissy again. Or maybe have the doc check her hormone levels.

turnera, in the past, I have told her that she is welcome to leave if she was so unhappy. But she never has and never will unless I physically assault her which I don't and never will. Someone coming in with an unbiased non-controlling mind will see that she has a great thing going and she is being greedy for more and more and more. Yes, she can leave if she does not like it here. No one else will value her as much as me and she knows it. Her dad is a gasbag and her sister is a narcissistic fake and she knows it too.


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## MEM2020

Nirvana,

This is a small point and a huge point. 

It is healthy to compliment N2 on the things she truly does well. 

It is not healthy to say: I'm lucky to have you. 

And the reason is, that she doesn't reciprocate. She doesn't say: I'm lucky to have you. 

Instead she agrees with you. 

In a 'high performance culture' - and yes - you are part of a high performance culture, there is a lot of jockeying for social status. 

In a healthy marriage:
Husband: I'm lucky to have you
Wife responds with: I'm lucky to have you

In a competitive, not so healthy marriage. 

H: I'm lucky to have you 
W: Yes you are (implies that she could do better or deserves better)

It's ok to say: I love you - that's a healthy positive statement

And if your marriage ever becomes non competitive, you can revisit this topic of who's lucky to have who. 




nirvana said:


> Ok, yesterday I got back from work and she did too and we all spent some time in the living room and I resisted the temptation to go upstairs to do some studying. Then the kids played outside and she went there and I followed and I played some with the kids. Her mood was good.
> 
> She told me about her day at work and I just listened, asked a few questions and did nothing more. Just listened. I slipped in a compliment about how she was managing work, home, kids and she brightened up and said I was lucky. I said I sure was.
> 
> Later that night, in bed she again said that she was tired and had body ache. She very rarely asks for a massage, she just says and its a hint for me to do something. So I did, I gave her a massage, brought her close to me and she did not resist. Massaged her back again, found no bra, but did not feel her up though there was the opportunity.  Just massaged her soft back. But I couldn't resist kissing her though.. and she usually says "not now" when she is this tired, but she didn't resist and let me kiss her, though she didn't kiss me back. Maybe some progress. Then as we slept, she held my hand (by herself).
> 
> This morning, she was dressing for work in a nice long dress looking smashing and I absolutely had to tell her she looked beautiful and I was lucky to have her. She smiled, and it was a happy smile.
> 
> So some positive signs. I hope I am able to maintain this.


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## turnera

The reason I say to tell her she's free to leave is that it is a discussion-ender. Meaning, she *****es, and you reply 'you're welcome to leave' and you go on about your business. You're doing fine. Just stay consistent.


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## nirvana

MEM, you are absolutely right and I fully agree with you. She does have a huge ego that she is a super achiever in her mind. It comes out of every statement coming out of her mouth. Example: " I have to take the kids to swimming.... or else who else will take them" or "I am sooo busy at work and still came home and did the cooking". For 10+ years I took care of the family income and she has only now started to work for the past 11 months but talks as if she and I are on the same footing on that. Her salary is less than half of mine currently. I invest actively and my investment earnings YTD is more than what she makes. It's a family tradition for her to claim credit for other people's work - her dad and sister are masters.

Incidentally, my mother long ago, told me that I was complimenting her a bit too much. My wife went through some situations which hit her self esteem so I was trying to boost it. Now this has turned into a monster that is threatened to eat me up. 

No compliments from me unless she gives me some first. She has quite successfully put me on the defensive by turning the narrative to make it look like I am not pulling my weight by making the discussion only about time spent with kids. She was a SAHM (while I supported the family) so she had all the time to spend with the kids. But not one word of thanks comes out of her mouth. 

I don't think she will change so easily. I told her I am not changing either. You either live with me or look for other options.

And you are right that if I say I am lucky to have her, she will respond with "You sure are!" to feed her own ego again.


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## turnera

One thing I do that works on my H when he's being an ass is to point out that he's acting just like his mom. He HATES to hear that. But he hears it, and sometimes backtracks or stops the action.


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## nirvana

About our anniversary, she complained that I didn't do anything special for her. Everybody does something nice and all we did was go to this restaurant. I got her roses and some chocolates. 

OK. So I asked her what SHE did for me. The answer is a big fat NOTHING. She was taken aback and kinda stunned when I asked and pointed that it was not her birthday but OUR anniversary. Then she cleverly tried to turn discussion on my birthday that she baked me a cake. Umm no, we are talking about OUR ANNIVERSARY.

From now on, everything is on a reciprocal basis. I need to see her putting some effort in this marriage, not just the kids which have taken up her whole life. If I bring it up, she cleverly says she is taking care of "YOUR kids" though they are in reality OUR kids.

These manipulation/obfuscation techniques are learned from her dad. He is a master of lying.


----------



## MEM2020

Nirvana,

You do need to change some things if you wish to lead the marriage to a better place. 

These are changes you make to improve the marriage, not for the purpose of making her happier.

Those things WILL, make her happier, but mainly by increasing her respect for you. 






nirvana said:


> MEM, you are absolutely right and I fully agree with you. She does have a huge ego that she is a super achiever in her mind. It comes out of every statement coming out of her mouth. Example: " I have to take the kids to swimming.... or else who else will take them" or "I am sooo busy at work and still came home and did the cooking". For 10+ years I took care of the family income and she has only now started to work for the past 11 months but talks as if she and I are on the same footing on that. Her salary is less than half of mine currently. I invest actively and my investment earnings YTD is more than what she makes. It's a family tradition for her to claim credit for other people's work - her dad and sister are masters.
> 
> Incidentally, my mother long ago, told me that I was complimenting her a bit too much. My wife went through some situations which hit her self esteem so I was trying to boost it. Now this has turned into a monster that is threatened to eat me up.
> 
> No compliments from me unless she gives me some first. She has quite successfully put me on the defensive by turning the narrative to make it look like I am not pulling my weight by making the discussion only about time spent with kids. She was a SAHM (while I supported the family) so she had all the time to spend with the kids. But not one word of thanks comes out of her mouth.
> 
> I don't think she will change so easily. I told her I am not changing either. You either live with me or look for other options.
> 
> And you are right that if I say I am lucky to have her, she will respond with "You sure are!" to feed her own ego again.


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## nirvana

In Indian circles, a good career is one of the avenues to respect. This is where I am focusing. Everything will fall into place. As I have said earlier, I live in a bad place for tech jobs and the pool is reducing as you get more senior. I need to move to SF Bay or Seattle where I will be fairly judged by my work rather than the color of my skin. Sadly that is the case here since it is more conservative. My friends who have moved have done very well because of the opportunity.
Everything should sort itself out after that. If not, then there isn't a whole lot to do.


----------



## MEM2020

Nirvana,

Your analysis is solid. Do you understand why your delivery style is not effective with her? 

I'm not saying that to belittle you. I'm saying it because your behavior towards her is very inconsistent. 

I have found another reason you should not say: I don't deserve you

It simply isn't true. She is good with work, house, kids. But at the expense of being a wife. 

But part of the reason the anniversary is all about her, is that you have told her over and over that 'you don't deserve her'. That's a big part of why she doesn't do anything for you on your anniversary. 

Let me break down my earlier comments a bit more precisely. 

1. Comment on the action: thank you for driving the kids to swim practice 
2. Comment on the attribute: you are a great mother, a great wife, etc.
3. Comment on the person in relation to yourself: I don't deserve you 

---------
I don't know why your wife is so often fishing for compliments. That said, if you consider the dynamic between you two, she is very persistent in her efforts to get your approval. But the actual result is that she then feels comfortable ignoring your needs. 

Because if you say: I don't deserve you 
And then follow it up with: I resent you for not prioritizing me 

She will tell you quite rightly that you are contradicting yourself. 

You are perhaps mixing together two things that are very different: 
- I love you (this is true, you do love her, though you don't especially like how she treats you)
And
- I don't deserve you (this is totally different than - ILY - I think you say this because it makes her so happy). 




nirvana said:


> About our anniversary, she complained that I didn't do anything special for her. Everybody does something nice and all we did was go to this restaurant. I got her roses and some chocolates.
> 
> OK. So I asked her what SHE did for me. The answer is a big fat NOTHING. She was taken aback and kinda stunned when I asked and pointed that it was not her birthday but OUR anniversary. Then she cleverly tried to turn discussion on my birthday that she baked me a cake. Umm no, we are talking about OUR ANNIVERSARY.
> 
> From now on, everything is on a reciprocal basis. I need to see her putting some effort in this marriage, not just the kids which have taken up her whole life. If I bring it up, she cleverly says she is taking care of "YOUR kids" though they are in reality OUR kids.
> 
> These manipulation/obfuscation techniques are learned from her dad. He is a master of lying.


----------



## nirvana

MEM11363 said:


> Nirvana,
> 
> Your analysis is solid. Do you understand why your delivery style is not effective with her?
> 
> I'm not saying that to belittle you. I'm saying it because your behavior towards her is very inconsistent.
> 
> I have found another reason you should not say: I don't deserve you
> 
> It simply isn't true. She is good with work, house, kids. But at the expense of being a wife.
> 
> But part of the reason the anniversary is all about her, is that you have told her over and over that 'you don't deserve her'. That's a big part of why she doesn't do anything for you on your anniversary.
> 
> Let me break down my earlier comments a bit more precisely.
> 
> 1. Comment on the action: thank you for driving the kids to swim practice
> 2. Comment on the attribute: you are a great mother, a great wife, etc.
> 3. Comment on the person in relation to yourself: I don't deserve you
> 
> ---------
> I don't know why your wife is so often fishing for compliments. That said, if you consider the dynamic between you two, she is very persistent in her efforts to get your approval. But the actual result is that she then feels comfortable ignoring your needs.
> 
> Because if you say: I don't deserve you
> And then follow it up with: I resent you for not prioritizing me
> 
> She will tell you quite rightly that you are contradicting yourself.
> 
> You are perhaps mixing together two things that are very different:
> - I love you (this is true, you do love her, though you don't especially like how she treats you)
> And
> - I don't deserve you (this is totally different than - ILY - I think you say this because it makes her so happy).


MEM, thanks for all the time you have taken to help me out. Much appreciated.

My analysis is that she and I are fundamentally different in how we value things. I prefer something to be good inside first, and then be good outside. Her family (dad/sister) and she look at things differently. They are okay with things being rotten inside as long as it looks good from outside and people see the outside. They are all gluttons for praise/credit/compliments and will tell you how awesome they are. Today we are financially very secure. It's taken years but I think we are doing well. Only then did I buy a BMW (outward glory), all this while I drove a 15+ year old beat up Honda. Many of our Indian friends are into showing off, so drive fancy cars and buy fancy gadgets, go on Europe trips but after taking huge loans (not visible to outsiders). This is the fundamental difference between me and my wife. We have no loans other than home mortgage (53% paid off). She is glamorized by those people and I am not. I am not stingy, but I will spend after making sure we can afford it. We went to 2 vacations/trips in the last 2 months. I will not mortgage our long term financial interests in order to show off to someone.

You are right, she is good at many things (except keeping the house tidy but I now overlook that). She is awful as a wife but good as a mother. She however is getting very controlling over the kids nowadays and our older one who will be a teen soon will start tuning her out which will drive her crazy. She had no one to guide her in her younger days (her dad was busy being a friend than a parent) so she wants to make sure her kids turn out well. She is overdoing it though. She is awful at being a wife/lover but thinks she is doing a great job. What I want is different though. This morning, she packed my lunch and ironed my trousers. She's been doing it for many years (except on days she is mad at me). Now I would gladly give those up if she would give me a hug and kiss, tell me she loved me and appreciated my contributions and just became my girlfriend. Men love the ego boost from their wife/girlfriend. It is a big weakness. She never does any of the things I want and does the things I don't value as much. Today I told her she could stop ironing for me in a very polite way as to not be offensive as said it will save her time.

I must clarify, I have never said that "I don't deserve you". I said "I am lucky to have you" which may be strrrrreeeeeeetched to mean "I don't deserve you" but I don't see it that way. I definitely have all the qualities of a good husband with some flaws too, so I would never devalue myself. I can see that she loves to compliment herself on how she manages home/kids/work well, so I thought I would make her happy by pointing it out and giving her a compliment. That's all it was.

My mistake may have been that I don't expect her to do things for me. She hasn't given me a massage in 10 years. Earlier she used to. I do it when she complains of back soreness or during her period. I get back aches too and even mention it but she doesn't seem to care. NMNG says I should ask her for one, that will make her more invested in the relationship.

I don't know if she is fishing for my approval... to me it looks like she is most likely saying "See? Everyone *else *loves me so much and appreciates me EXCEPT you. You are lucky to have me!". In other words she is saying I don't recognize her glorious awesomeness. Of course, she NEVER compliments me at all. Her thing is she wants approval and validation from her friends who treat her badly or make her feel bad about herself or her dad and sister (2 scoundrels). Her dad keeps praising her sister on FB and my wife gets very jealous. I ask her why she cares so much? She does not seem to want my validation at all.

MEM, I hope I have clarified things. Please let me know if you still think I have been inconsistent. My wife is an intelligent person who lost her way and was not able to show her skills and gain confidence (unlike her sister who was lucky), so now she is finding herself (with my help) but now thinks that I was holding her back when it was her dad, sister and maybe some others.


----------



## MEM2020

Nirvana,

One quick comment on my motives. You are here. She isn't. So the only person who can change the dynamic is you. That's why I'm making these suggestions. 

If you wish to lay all the blame for your current marital woes on her family members, you may. But nothing will improve. 

Sorry I misquoted you. Yes - you did indeed say: I'm lucky to have you. 

And yes she does stretch the meaning as we both know. And yes that is 'just like her father'. 

It sounds like she really is turning into her father. 

All that said - perhaps you care more about outside perception than you realize. You've chosen a beautiful wife who treats you poorly instead of a pretty wife who treats you well.

And you have reinforced the importance of 'outside perception' by making such a fuss about her beauty for all these years. 

Ultimately you are secure enough to see, own and address your contribution to the current situation or you aren't. 





nirvana said:


> MEM, thanks for all the time you have taken to help me out. Much appreciated.
> 
> My analysis is that she and I are fundamentally different in how we value things. I prefer something to be good inside first, and then be good outside. Her family (dad/sister) and she look at things differently. They are okay with things being rotten inside as long as it looks good from outside and people see the outside. They are all gluttons for praise/credit/compliments and will tell you how awesome they are. Today we are financially very secure. It's taken years but I think we are doing well. Only then did I buy a BMW (outward glory), all this while I drove a 15+ year old beat up Honda. Many of our Indian friends are into showing off, so drive fancy cars and buy fancy gadgets, go on Europe trips but after taking huge loans (not visible to outsiders). This is the fundamental difference between me and my wife. I have no loans other than home mortgage (53% paid off). She is glamorized by those people and I am not. I am not stingy, but I will spend after making sure we can afford it. We went to 2 short vacations in the last 2 months. I will not mortgage our long term financial interests in order to show off to someone.
> 
> You are right, she is good at many things (except keeping the house tidy but I now overlook that). She is awful as a wife but good as a mother. She however is getting very controlling over the kids nowadays and our older one who will be a teen soon will start tuning her out which will drive her crazy. She had no one to guide her in her younger days (her dad was busy being a friend than a parent) so she wants to make sure her kids turn out well. She is overdoing it though. She is awful at being a wife/lover but thinks she is doing a great job. What I want is different though. This morning, she packed my lunch and ironed my trousers. She's been doing it for many years (except on days she is mad at me). Now I would gladly give those up if she would give me a hug and kiss, tell me she loved me and appreciated my contributions and just became my girlfriend. Men love the ego boost from their wife/girlfriend. It is a big weakness. She never does any of the things I want and does the things I don't value as much. Today I told her she could stop ironing for me in a very polite way as to not be offensive as said it will save her time.
> 
> I must clarify, I have never said that "I don't deserve you". I said "I am lucky to have you" which may be strrrrreeeeeeetched to mean "I don't deserve you" but I don't see it that way. I definitely have all the qualities of a good husband with some flaws too, so I would never devalue myself. I can see that she loves to compliment herself on how she manages home/kids/work well, so I thought I would make her happy by pointing it out and giving her a compliment. That's all it was.
> 
> My mistake may have been that I don't expect her to do things for me. She hasn't given me a massage in 10 years. Earlier she used to. I do it when she complains of back soreness or during her period. I get back aches too and even mention it but she doesn't seem to care. NMNG says I should ask her for one, that will make her more invested in the relationship.
> 
> I don't know if she is fishing for my approval... to me it looks like she is most likely saying "See? Everyone else loves me so much and appreciates me EXCEPT you. You are lucky to have me!". In other words she is saying I don't recognize her glorious awesomeness. Of course, she NEVER compliments me at all. Her thing is she wants approval and validation from her friends who treat her badly or make her feel bad about herself or her dad and sister (2 scoundrels). Her dad keeps praising her sister on FB and my wife gets very jealous. I ask her why she cares so much? She does not seem to want my validation at all.
> 
> MEM, I hope I have clarified things. Please let me know if you still think I have been inconsistent. My wife is an intelligent person who lost her way and was not able to show her skills and gain confidence (unlike her sister who was lucky), so now she is finding herself (with my help) but now thinks that I was holding her back when it was her dad, sister and maybe some others.


----------



## nirvana

Yes, blaming her family is of no use but I am just giving you some information as to where it comes from. She wasn't this way earlier when we got married. It's not abnormal for a man to want a beautiful wife. That is different from what I am saying about showing off while being hollow inside. Two totally different things. 

I don't deny that I have made mistake in how I have 'handled' her. Life doesn't come with a manual unfortunately.

Which is why I feel I need to focus on what is important to make me happy which is independent of her. A flourishing career and job prospects would make me happy. Maybe I've given too much importance to getting validation/praise from her and she uses it as a tool to control me. I hate to say this about myself but maybe I give out a needy vibe when I complain that she isn't too loving. 
I need to gain control back WITHOUT HER and focusing on my career is the way to go. If she wants to join in the ride, then hop on, or else, cheerio!


----------



## nirvana

I think that some of her moodiness/pissiness may be hormone imbalance. She is very hormonal in general and that causes breakouts but I don't know more details than this.
Can anyone tell me if there are some tests that can be done for this? She is in a great mood one moment (before the party), calling me sweet names, and then after the party, she's all grumpy and angry for the next 2 days. We did not have a fight during the party or anything, but her mood changed. 

There may be a medical issue here.


----------



## MEM2020

Nirvana,

In my mid thirties I quadrupled my income. It didn't change my dynamic with M2 at all. 

From a practical standpoint it would have made divorce fairly easy. But it didn't improve our dynamic in the slightest. And it weakened my bond with the kids because I worked and travelled so much. 

Our dynamic changed when I accepted that: anger was the result of fear or hurt. Most fear and hurt were the result of weakness. 

Therefore anger is a very definite sign of weakness. 

That changed everything. My understanding of M2 increased greatly. And my neediness / volatility decreased greatly. 

M2 tells me she is 'IN LOVE' with me all the time. 







nirvana said:


> Yes, blaming her family is of no use but I am just giving you some information as to where it comes from. She wasn't this way earlier when we got married. It's not abnormal for a man to want a beautiful wife. That is different from what I am saying about showing off while being hollow inside. Two totally different things.
> 
> I don't deny that I have made mistake in how I have 'handled' her. Life doesn't come with a manual unfortunately.
> 
> Which is why I feel I need to focus on what is important to make me happy which is independent of her. A flourishing career and job prospects would make me happy. Maybe I've given too much importance to getting validation/praise from her and she uses it as a tool to control me. I hate to say this about myself but maybe I give out a needy vibe when I complain that she isn't too loving.
> I need to gain control back WITHOUT HER and focusing on my career is the way to go. If she wants to join in the ride, then hop on, or else, cheerio!


----------



## nirvana

MEM, This may be a cultural thing. Not sure if you know, but I am of Indian origin. Indian women love to gloat about their husbands career and money. We have enough money and my career is not bad, but it is not "healthy" unless I move out of here. 
Now this may not be a silver bullet, but at minimum, it will make me happy and if I am happy there is a chance that there are positive vibes all around.


----------



## MEM2020

The party didn't go quite the way she wanted. 

This is where you could have a huge impact. 

You just ask her if there was something that happened at the party which disappointed her. And if she fences with you - just say what's true in a calm voice: you seemed so happy before the party and much less happy afterwards. 

And then be sympathetic. BTW - if she won't say it's because she doesn't trust you to be supportive.




nirvana said:


> I think that some of her moodiness/pissiness may be hormone imbalance. She is very hormonal in general and that causes breakouts but I don't know more details than this.
> Can anyone tell me if there are some tests that can be done for this? She is in a great mood one moment (before the party), calling me sweet names, and then after the party, she's all grumpy and angry for the next 2 days. We did not have a fight during the party or anything, but her mood changed.
> 
> There may be a medical issue here.


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## MEM2020

Nirvana,

I absolutely believe that N2 'thinks' this will make her happier. 

That said, what will happen is this. Your income goes up a lot. You move into a nicer neighborhood where - you are right back in the middle of the bell curve compared to your new neighbors. 

And FWIW: M2 while not Indian - is very competitive. 

She liked the money. But it didn't change our day to day dynamic. And it didn't make me less tense/volatile. 

You will either 'get there' or you won't emotionally. The W2 won't have near the impact either of you expect. 





nirvana said:


> MEM, This may be a cultural thing. Not sure if you know, but I am of Indian origin. Indian women love to gloat about their husbands career and money. We have enough money and my career is not bad, but it is not "healthy" unless I move out of here.
> Now this may not be a silver bullet, but at minimum, it will make me happy and if I am happy there is a chance that there are positive vibes all around.


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## nirvana

MEM, I guess in the end it comes down to making myself happy and "loving" myself. At this point of time, I must confess that I don't really love myself. I am low on self confidence on the career front (which means a lot to me). Late last year, I got laid off from my company inspite of showing stellar performance and having great relationships with everyone. Things were perfect and then not. Many others got laid off too - nature of the beast for a startup. I managed to find something of same salary and title in 6 weeks but this job sucks and I hate it. Pays bills but not much more. I know I am better than this, I just have to open up and discover the world.

And that is what I am set out to do. For years I was loath to move because I didn't want to disrupt my wife's social circle (she was SAHM) and my kids schooling (son is in a good program) and sacrificed career prospects for that. Of course, my wife does not see this the way I do but that is okay. Now I need to do this for myself. Yes, that will make me happy, love myself more and make me more confident as I was getting when I was at my previous company. Interestingly the previous company might get me back in my old boss's role (she got laid off too). Interviews are on and everyone is on board but I don't know the top guy. 

Talks are on with companies in the West coast also. When I get something, I go. Maybe I am being selfish but this is the new me now.


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