# could trans gender be a mental illness?



## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

I have recently seen a lot in the media about trans gender. It seems like celebrities are doing everything in their power to promote it. From Chas Bono, to Caitlyn/Bruce Jenner, to Branjolenas daughter/son Shiloh/John Jole-Pitt, now being raised as a boy....

I was impressed with the similarity of this phenomenon with *Body dysmorphic disorder*....A type of chronic mental illness in which you can't stop thinking about a flaw in your appearance — a flaw that is either minor or imagined. But to you, your appearance seems so shameful that you don't want to be seen by anyone. 

Examples of BDD are plastic surgery addicts, and anorexics, seeing themselves as being disgustingly fat, even as they starve to death....

An even more bizarre condition is *BIID*....A disorder where a healthy person wishes to have a body part amputated, or in a recent case where a woman says she is happier than ever after 
becoming blind. The North Carolina woman told TV reporters that becoming blind has always been a lifelong wish of hers and she is happy she has now fulfilled it. The 30-year-old suffers from *Body Integrity Identity Disorder.* *BIID is a condition where able-bodied sufferers believe they are meant to be disabled*. Her obsession with being blind began when she was a child.

I think that eventually these conditions will become grouped under a spectrum of psychological disorders that will be treatable....


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

American Psychiatric Association removed gender identity disorder as a classified mental disorder a few years ago. 

Your premise is going backwards in thinking.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> American Psychiatric Association removed gender identity disorder as a classified mental disorder a few years ago.
> 
> Your premise is going backwards in thinking.


And they might remove BDD, and BIID in the future, that does not mean that they are not related, and that they might respond to drugs.....The APA responds as much to PC as science...


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## NoIinThreesome (Nov 6, 2007)

It is a mental mapping disorder. 

And the decision to remove gender identity disorders from the DSM is a political decision, not a medical one. 

As one of the members of the working group that removed GID said, "all psychiatric diagnosis occur withing a cultural context." Which then makes psychiatric diagnosis complete rubbish. 

Could you imagine if your GP told you that your fever and chills were no longer flu symptoms because the culture had shifted?

As an aside, a family member teaches at an urban school where (cross my heart) 2 of his 11 first grade students have parents who have identified them as transgender. Best estimates puts the overall transgender population at three tenths of one percent.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

*As an aside, a family member teaches at an urban school where (cross my heart) 2 of his 11 first grade students have parents who have identified them as transgender. Best estimates puts the overall transgender population at three tenths of one percent. *

I have been criticized for saying that identifying as trans gender is a fad, and people will eventually be wise up, and the rate will then drop off....Unfortunately a lot of kids will be damaged....

I saw a special where a pre-pubescent boy was so deep into the trans gender thing that he wanted to be castrated before he produced yucky sperm...The Dr. tried to talk him into waiting till he could produce viable sperm so he could have it frozen, and at a later date have a biological child.....

He became hysterical at the thought of his body producing sperm....What kind of propaganda has that kid been subjected to...

He said he found out about trans gender on the web site tumblr, and before that didn't know it existed....


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

"Doctor, my little boy refuses to take out the garbage, rake the leaves, or do his homework."

Ah, he's transgender with ADHD, severe allergies, and dyslexia.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think its not simple - especially with children. Adults are free to choose how they present themselves and how they behave. Free to choose if they want gender reassignment surgery .

Children are not as capable of making long term decisions. They may also confuse other sources of depression and anxiety with gender issues.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I think its not simple - especially with children. Adults are free to choose how they present themselves and how they behave. Free to choose if they want gender reassignment surgery .
> 
> *Children are not as capable of making long term decisions*. They may also confuse other sources of depression and anxiety with gender issues.


Which is why there are parents. I read an article about a boy who was at the time, if memory serves, 16 years old. He liked to play with dolls, loved the color pink and liked brightly colored clothes. He ordered hormone treatments from the Internet and began administering himself injections of estrogen. His parents found out as he began to develop breasts and they encouraged his transformation!?!? They found a physician that would continue the process ON A 16 yo BOY.

We do not allow individuals to vote until the age of 18 and they are not allowed to drink until at least then, some places 21 because we do not feel they are ready and competent to make such important decisions before that age, they simply do not have the mental acuity and experience but at 16 this child can make a decision regarding changing their gender that will be for the rest of their lives??? And we see this as plausible?

When I was a boy I loved to climb trees. I was also very fond of bananas, THAT DOES NOT MEAN I AM REALLY A MONKEY INSIDE. This has become ludicrous and instead of working with the child to help them see the truth we allow a surgeon to disfigure them for life?

If you attach a long flowing neck to a duck and transplant beautiful long white feathers you do not end up with a swan, you end up with a mutilated duck, that still quacks. We have begun a sojourn into the absurd, at least I sincerely hope it is temporary.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I think its not simple - especially with children. Adults are free to choose how they present themselves and how they behave. Free to choose if they want gender reassignment surgery .
> 
> Children are not as capable of making long term decisions. They may also confuse other sources of depression and anxiety with gender issues.


You are absolutely correct. That boy that loved dolls, and girly things "might"  hit puberty, fall head over heels in love with a girl. and join the football team because she likes jocks....It should be his decision to make, but only after he is 21.... You cannot make informed choices about your sexuality or gender until you are through puberty, and have had some sexual interaction....


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

NoChoice said:


> Which is why there are parents. I read an article about a boy who was at the time, if memory serves, 16 years old. He liked to play with dolls, loved the color pink and liked brightly colored clothes. He ordered hormone treatments from the Internet and began administering himself injections of estrogen. His parents found out as he began to develop breasts and they encouraged his transformation!?!? They found a physician that would continue the process ON A 16 yo BOY.
> 
> We do not allow individuals to vote until the age of 18 and they are not allowed to drink until at least then, some places 21 because we do not feel they are ready and competent to make such important decisions before that age, they simply do not have the mental acuity and experience but at 16 this child can make a decision regarding changing their gender that will be for the rest of their lives??? And we see this as plausible?
> 
> ...


In my now-daughters case, there were small signs earlier on at age 3 - 8.

Getting the hormone treatments early is a huge bonus, before puberty if that's the case. 

TG _is_ a fad - but like all fads - there's the followers who will follow anything, no matter what it is, and there's those who set the trend, and they set it because they're living their life.

Many young TG people are happy enough to grow up at Cis people later, and many are happy to get late transition or even just take non-mainstream roles/lives. Some know what they are and the sooner they can chose a healthily supported path the better.
Don't condemn the few for the crimes of the many.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

I would take a son who identifies as homosexual, transgender, etc over my son's real mental disability. He can be both a harm to himself and others. A real mental illness is exhausting to any parent.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Don't condemn the few for the crimes of the many.


I think this is it. A child who identified as the opposite gender early on seems mostly likely to be a true trans person. People who suddenly decide their cross dressing fetish is part of them being a trans person at the ripe old age of 60...... not so much. The Jenners of the word do the real trans people quite a disservice IMO


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## Cecezakat (Jun 20, 2015)

In a few cases mental illness could be a cause. More likely it is simply a genetic and/or hormonal problem. Genetics and hormones guide a fetus into developing as a male or female. Early on in the womb there can be a problem in the process. 

The male and female brain are notably different in structure. It is possible for a person to develop a male body with a female brain structure. The female brain structure causes the person to think more like other women and relate to other women more despite the body having developed as a male. And vice versa. In that case the body has male genetics (XY) but the brain being more female leads the person to identify as a female. Its also possible for someone to be XY but have overwhelming production of female hormones leading to a more female body. The brain may still be male and would cause a female looking (but genetically male XY) person to believe they are male despite what they see in the mirror. 

The body itself can have errors during development that led to a mix of sex organs and results in an intersex individual. 

Human development is very complex and there are many points where something can go wrong. There are definitely physical causes of a persons mind and body not matching up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Shoto1984 said:


> spotthedeaddog said:
> 
> 
> > Don't condemn the few for the crimes of the many.
> ...


I believe Bruce Jenner began hormone treatments in 1983 that resulted in 36b breasts by 1988 . As a national hero and famous athlete I doubt he felt he could expose this to the world. This is according to his interview with Diane Sawyer.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Shoto1984 said:


> I think this is it. A child who identified as the opposite gender early on seems mostly likely to be a true trans person. People who suddenly decide their cross dressing fetish is part of them being a trans person at the ripe old age of 60...... not so much. The Jenners of the word do the real trans people quite a disservice IMO


Often the TG person is expect to man up or be a woman (especially before homosexuality became more mainstream, and before women started getting _some_ recognition in the workplace).

It would also not be unusual if such a person tends to be very typical in their social role - because they are literally _acting_ a social role, unlike Cis folk who just do what comes naturally.

Gender also goes beyond brain chemistry - in fact the brain chemistry, especially through puberty just makes things way more complex. Which is another reason we don't just end up with two, or four gender types.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I believe Bruce Jenner began hormone treatments in 1983 that resulted in 36b breasts by 1988 . As a national hero and famous athlete I doubt he felt he could expose this to the world. This is according to his interview with Diane Sawyer.


So all the people who have known him (some intimately) in that time who have not mentioned his "breasts" as a hint that there must be something up....??????


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

Yes, it would seem that gender is a continuum with an infinite number of points and in fact we are each our own gender in a multidimensional range. Fascinating......


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Shoto1984 said:


> Yes, it would seem that gender is a continuum with an infinite number of points and in fact we are each our own gender in a multidimensional range. Fascinating......



This is true of a lot of behavioral phenotypes.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Shoto1984 said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> > I believe Bruce Jenner began hormone treatments in 1983 that resulted in 36b breasts by 1988 . As a national hero and famous athlete I doubt he felt he could expose this to the world. This is according to his interview with Diane Sawyer.
> ...


Exactly. It's a closet, right?


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Don't know about the mental illness angle, but I'm getting sick of how frequently the subject seems to be over-inserted into many forms of news, entertainment, discussion where it is not material.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

Ikaika said:


> This is true of a lot of behavioral phenotypes.


I move to petition the mod's to either end the Men's and Women's discussion areas or create a discussion area for each individual. Seconds?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

it is so easy to dismiss other people's problems as "made up". It did not happen to me, so it can not be real, right?


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> it is so easy to dismiss other people's problems as "made up". It did not happen to me, so it can not be real, right?


Absolutely NOT...It is a known phenomenon, much as trans sex individuals....It is just that it has a striking similarity to several other psychiatric disorders....

Lets not let our hyper sensitivity to perceived bigotry interfere with real science....


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

except that "real science" would reject the premise of your thread, but go ahead, keep demeaning them.

after all, the earth is flat and the sun revolves around us.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Here is how "real science" determine the difference between illnesses and non illnesses. Can we change it? If there is an effective treatment then it must be an illness. Thus melancholy became depression with the advent of happy pills. Old age became Heart disease. And so on. The nifty thing about "Real Science" is the continual advances. The facts today are the myths tomorrow.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Honestly, I'd think that any condition that would lead a male to mutilate his penis -- FOR ANY REASON -- could correctly be described as some sort of mental disorder.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> Here is how "real science" determine the difference between illnesses and non illnesses. Can we change it? If there is an effective treatment then it must be an illness. Thus melancholy became depression with the advent of happy pills. Old age became Heart disease. And so on. The nifty thing about "Real Science" is the continual advances. The facts today are the myths tomorrow.


Well said.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> except that "real science" would reject the premise of your thread, but go ahead, keep demeaning them.
> 
> after all, the earth is flat and the sun revolves around us.


Please Please Please point out where anyone has been demeaned on this thread....Suggesting a physiological basis for a serious personal issue is in no way demeaning and to imply that is short sighted, and lacking in cogent insight....


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> it is so easy to dismiss other people's problems as "made up". It did not happen to me, so it can not be real, right?


Suggesting a physiological basis for an issue is in no way calling the issue MADE UP....

What if a drug was discovered that would allow an individuals gender issues to be resolved in a way that was agreeable to that individual, and allow them to live at peace with themselves, and allowed them to engage in a lifestyle complimentary to their biological gender....Would that not be a better outcome than surgical mutilation?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

NoIinThreesome said:


> As an aside, a family member teaches at an urban school where (cross my heart) 2 of his 11 first grade students have parents who have identified them as transgender.


There is actually an urban school with _only _11 kids in a class?? That's more shocking to me than anything else.

I really don't see why it bothers anyone that there are transgendered people. What possible difference could it make to anyone other than that person and their families?


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

norajane said:


> There is actually an urban school with _only _11 kids in a class?? That's more shocking to me than anything else.
> 
> I really don't see why it bothers anyone that there are transgendered people. What possible difference could it make to anyone other than that person and their families?


I am sure Caitlin would not agree..


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Woodchuck said:


> Absolutely NOT...It is a known phenomenon, much as trans sex individuals....It is just that it has a striking similarity to several other psychiatric disorders....
> 
> 
> 
> Lets not let our hyper sensitivity to perceived bigotry interfere with real science....



I don't know what is the probable science?

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/showthread.php?p=14003353


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> Here is how "real science" determine the difference between illnesses and non illnesses. Can we change it? If there is an effective treatment then it must be an illness. Thus melancholy became depression with the advent of happy pills. Old age became Heart disease. And so on. The nifty thing about "Real Science" is the continual advances. The facts today are the myths tomorrow.



Illness like heart disease and spectral differences in cognitive or other mental capacities are not equivalent. But then again some illness are genetic and some are due to mismatches between our hunter/gather biology and our modern culture: biological evolution meets cultural evolution. It is way more complicated.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> Illness like heart disease and spectral differences in cognitive or other mental capacities are not equivalent. But then again some illness are genetic and some are due to mismatches between our hunter/gather biology and our modern culture: biological evolution meets cultural evolution. It is way more complicated.


Is schizophrenia an illness? how about bi-polar disorder, rickets, scurvy, pellagra, kuru.....

How different is a person who thinks they are the wrong gender vs. someone who thinks their leg should be amputated, or that a 75 lb person sees herself as fat..

At one time stomach ulcers were caused by spicy foods and stress, now we know it is the heliobactor pylori bacteria...

If a pill can stop compulsive hand washing behavior, why not obsessing over ones gender....


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Woodchuck said:


> Is schizophrenia an illness? how about bi-polar disorder, rickets, scurvy, pellagra, kuru.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again, there are clinical illnesses and then there spectral syndromes, these not necessarily equivalents. If you want a clean definition that cuts this down the middle, it does not exist. This is not to dismiss your premise, it goes to understanding this is far more complicated. Even if science wanted to make some defining characteristics of mental illness based on some definitive biological markers, we need to consider the social aspects of making this suggestion. If we look at the science, it could very well determine trans gender as a mental illness. That is if it falls significantly outside the mean. However, when making social comparisons between an individual who is truly delusional (person with schizophrenia), potential to cause harm to self or someone else, and that of a trans gender, who does not carry the same self or social harming capacity, should we really classify them equally?

So left to science alone, there is a lot more that could be said:

I could rephrase the title "could the precepts of the Moses religions be based on a mental illness?"

Looking at the symptoms of Moses, he very likely experienced issues associated with temporal lobe epilepsy. Did he suffer a mental illness? Do we suggest, Judaism, Christianity and Islam to based on characteristics of a mental illness?


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Since when did lopping of organs fail to be considered "harm"? Because said individual is ok with it (we're not even talking about future psychological harm - see transgender suicide rates)? Doesn't make it not harm - we've just come to accept self-harm as a society (breast implants, etc).

The basic premise is a mind that disagrees with physical reality. Sure it's "complicated". As complicated as if I thought I was "supposed" to have wings, or have been born with a large hole in through my body in the middle of my midsection. It is just that medical science has taken the "treatment" of appeasement in gender transitions to potential fulfillment.

If I insisted that my medical insurance pay for treatments to assist me in growing wings because I felt since I was a child that I was supposed to have them, most would call me insane to some degree. Why is it suddenly different for people who's minds disagree with the physical reality of their bodies? Why encourage self-mutilation (or further, agree to support paying for it)? So those people don't "feel bad"? 

And, if it isn't entirely obvious, I refuse to "lightly tread" around the situation due to other's insistence on observing the "feelings" of the perpetually offended.


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## cameeindos (Dec 12, 2015)

It is. It's in the DSM, and is treated by psychiatrists.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Since when did lopping of organs fail to be considered "harm"?


I believe the rites of Attis and Cybele date to pre-800 BCE


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

cameeindos said:


> It is. It's in the DSM, and is treated by psychiatrists.


So was belief in spirits (eg religion) and homosexuality.
We could cure so many diseases by just taking them out of the DSM.


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## cameeindos (Dec 12, 2015)

no but then it is due to it being a condition that causes distress. i think this is apparent and self-evident. the fact somebody raises a point, and you take issue with it, is pretty comical. But then it's just a view based on fact, to answer the OP's question. your rudeness is also telling and comical...


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## cameeindos (Dec 12, 2015)

Woodchuck said:


> Is schizophrenia an illness? how about bi-polar disorder, rickets, scurvy, pellagra, kuru.....
> 
> How different is a person who thinks they are the wrong gender vs. someone who thinks their leg should be amputated, or that a 75 lb person sees herself as fat..
> 
> ...


the key issues are distress, emotional hurt, and social/life dysfunctioning. 

if a person as a youngster is depressed because they feel they're the wrong gender, or they have to uncontrollably wash their hands 10 times a day, or they have voices telling them stuff, how are these not psychiatric symptoms?


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## cameeindos (Dec 12, 2015)

Ikaika said:


> Again, there are clinical illnesses and then there spectral syndromes, these not necessarily equivalents. If you want a clean definition that cuts this down the middle, it does not exist. This is not to dismiss your premise, it goes to understanding this is far more complicated. Even if science wanted to make some defining characteristics of mental illness based on some definitive biological markers, we need to consider the social aspects of making this suggestion. If we look at the science, it could very well determine trans gender as a mental illness. That is if it falls significantly outside the mean. However, when making social comparisons between an individual who is truly delusional (person with schizophrenia), potential to cause harm to self or someone else, and that of a trans gender, who does not carry the same self or social harming capacity, should we really classify them equally?
> 
> So left to science alone, there is a lot more that could be said:
> 
> ...


Erm...but it IS. because it causes personal/interpersonal distress. And what is the norm?


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## cameeindos (Dec 12, 2015)

Just to add, the OP is basing his/her argument on faulty logic. 

If IS a mental illness, and has been considered such for decades. 

A sex change is thus means to change the body to match the mind. 

To say as some/many do that she's a confused gay man is not true. Gender identity and sexual orientation aren't the same thing. 

I'll be excused of being a PC warrior, well no, it's just established medical fact. If it doesn't corrleate with a conservative good ol' days agenda, well good for you, i'm not bothered.


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