# ‘I Left My Husband For Him, But He Didn’t Return The Favor’



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Wow..this woman is not only remorseless but clueless...

__________________________________________

‘I Left My Husband For Him, But He Didn’t Return The Favor’

By Cassie Robinson 

Sometimes we screw up, but we have to find happiness and strength within to get back up again.

If someone had walked up to me and told me a year ago I would be a 30-year-old single mom with two kids, I would have looked at them like they were bat**** crazy.

A year ago, I was THAT mom — the one who seemed to have it all together, who had it all in some ways: two beautiful boys, a nice home, a good man and father to our kids. I cooked the meals and coordinated professional family photos, planned vacations, sent out Christmas cards, etc. I had a rigid schedule but made time to run and managed to be in decent physical shape.

But something was missing. In my marriage, I felt alone. Why wasn’t I happy?

I met my ex when I was seventeen. He was four years older than me and I was smitten. He had a job, a truck, and a house. He had it all together. We got along great so dating him while I was in college seemed like the right thing to do. And of course, after college the next step was marriage, right?

He was a hard worker and provided stability throughout the marriage. We had two beautiful boys and all seemed well — or was it?

After having our second child, I started to feel different. I hated the person I was and the wife and mother I had become. I did not feel good enough and I felt incredibly alone. I was unhappy.

I strived to be perfect and wanted validation from my husband and always seemed to end up disappointed. We only communicated when it came to daily tasks and the kids. Date nights disappeared and communication was lacking. I felt my husband did not want to spend time with me. That alone feeling turned into resentment and I grew to hate the man I married. And then my life started to change before my eyes and it all hit me like a ton of bricks.

He will remain nameless. We talked every single day about our ho-hum lives, kiddos and sleep deprivation, running, peanut butter/dark chocolate goodness, etc. He was quirky, but I was too and we clicked instantly as friends. Never did we discuss problems in our marriages. We just jived well and I always enjoyed talking to him. I could be my goofy self with him.

He thought my tattoos were cool when my husband did not, we shared an appreciation for swear words, his sweet tooth was just as terrible as mine and we shared a Starbucks addiction. One day, I looked at him in a different light and realized that I loved him as more than a friend. He knew more about me than anyone, made me feel beautiful, embraced my quirkiness... I knew at that moment he was the love of my life and my heart belonged to him. There was a problem: He was married and so was I.

Our innocent conversations turned into professing our love to one another. Apparently he had felt that way our entire friendship and I was oblivious the entire time. That led to future conversations about marriage, where we would live, custody arrangements, etc. We loved each other and knew we could no longer live without one another.

Did this man have an impact on my decision to divorce my husband? Yes. Was it the only reason? No. But knowing I had found the “love of my life” made the decision to divorce my companion and husband of 12 years much more bearable.

So I did it. All of the resentment and insecurities I had bottled up over time were released and I filed for divorce. At that point I went through the motions, I did what I thought made sense and what I had to do.

There was no drama and the divorce was clean. In less than two months, I went from having the “perfect” family and “having it all” to becoming a single mom. But I had it all figured out. I was finally going to be happy — or so I thought.

I was now divorced, but he was not. We continued to talk about our plans and how happy we were going to be. And then one day that all changed. He told me although he would always love me, he could not follow through with our plan for the sake of his kids. And just like that, my plans to spend the rest of my life with the man I loved and my best friend were crushed.

I write all of this not for pity. Am I heartbroken? Yep. Was I naive? Hell yes. But I am not a victim.

I made some errors in judgment and take responsibility for my actions. I share all of this to say I am not perfect; no one is. We all make mistakes, but we still deserve happiness. It took going through a divorce and being left brokenhearted to begin truly learning who I am as my own person and what I really want — the one thing I never gave myself the opportunity to do while I was in a relationship all of those years.

I was knocked down by a ton of bricks when he decided not to divorce his wife and it has been a true test to get back up again and climb out of the abyss. It is not easy, but I am learning to appreciate life from a different perspective. I am more humble, I am more patient, I am more forgiving.

I am learning to love myself and I am becoming a better mother because of it. I am now 30 and a single mom of two awesome kids. Am I lonely? Yes. But that is ok. I have learned so much about myself over the last 12 months I now know I deserve happiness and will not settle for anything less.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

I love the comments....they were right on.....interest ly no word back from the writer


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Her quest for happiness will never end until she realizes that it is not to be found in a man but rather inside of her. And if she could not find happiness in "having it all", her words, then I doubt she ever will. She will find fault in wherever situation she finds herself in. It is regrettable.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Are you still happy that you divorced your husband, or would you have stayed had you known how it would turn out with the other guy.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

It sounds like her hb wasn't that happy with her either, if he wasn't paying much attention and the divorce was clean and amicable. 

Hvll, he may have had something else himself. 

They were very young when they my and probably neither had lived much, and people change. 

People will tend to get hung up on the cheating aspect, but she may have actually done her hb a favor. 

Otherwise you'd expect a lot of hurt and animosity during her divorce. 

But this is why you don't leave a marriage for someone else. You leave a marriage because it isn't working and you've tried to fix it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

NoChoice said:


> Her quest for happiness will never end until she realizes that it is not to be found in a man but rather inside of her. And if she could not find happiness in "having it all", her words, then I doubt she ever will. She will find fault in wherever situation she finds herself in. It is regrettable.


She chased a fantasy and when reality set in the world looked a lot different...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Xenote said:


> I love the comments....they were right on.....interest ly no word back from the writer


She was too busy being happy >


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

What a piece of crap. Both the story and the author.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> It sounds like her hb wasn't that happy with her either, if he wasn't paying much attention and the divorce was clean and amicable.
> 
> Hvll, he may have had something else himself.
> 
> ...


Don't see why you would speculate that he had something going on the side.....I think the WW would have mentioned that if it was true.....it would have made her, "The M was bad and we drifted apart" viewpoint much stronger and believable if she could have declared her BH was doing the same as her.

Or BH might have just have been one of those guys who said "Get the h*ll out of my life cheater, I want nothing more to do with you EVER."

I was with my cheating exLTgf.

So the D went swiftly because her BH wasn't going to tolerate her selfish crap.


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## dash74 (Jan 3, 2015)

She read eat pray love

Hope cupcake has a happy ending


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> Don't see why you would speculate that he had something going on the side.....I think the WW would have mentioned that if it was true.....it would have made her, "The M was bad and we drifted apart" viewpoint much stronger and believable if she could have declared her BH was doing the same as her.
> 
> Or BH might have just have been one of those guys who said "Get the h*ll out of my life cheater, I want nothing more to do with you EVER."
> 
> ...


She never mentioned working on her marriage - you would think having 2 small children would make you at least try...something tells me she's been watching too many movies or reading too many goofy novels...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> What a piece of crap. Both the story and the author.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If the authoer was trying to poray herself as sympathetic - well she failed - she just seems really childish and selfish...I feel sorry for her kids...did you notice how she described herself as a "single mom" - was it to elicit sympathy because A) Her kids do have a father B) she caused this mess...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

People with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, always think they are normal. They think they are the catch, everyone thinks like them.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> She never mentioned working on her marriage - you would think having 2 small children would make you at least try...something tells me she's been watching too many movies or reading too many goofy novels...


Well that's what happens when you meet when you're 17..... you are immature and aren't ready to be in a permanent relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> If the authoer was trying to poray herself as sympathetic - well she failed - she just seems really childish and selfish...I feel sorry for her kids...did you notice how she described herself as a "single mom" - was it to elicit sympathy because A) Her kids do have a father B) she caused this mess...


Yeah....I noticed that too.

It is another clue IMO that her BH kicked her to the curb immediately and hard and now wants as little to do with her as possible.....that's why she feels so single and on her own, not mentioning even having a co-parent.

He likely only speaks to her when necessary for the kids.

This is how MANY men handle a cheating W.....TAM and other infidelity sites can skew that reality because most of these 'cut and dried' GTFO BHs do not come to post for advice on what to do....they KNOW what they have/want to do and just take care of their business.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Well that's what happens when you meet when you're 17..... you are immature and aren't ready to be in a permanent relationship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But she was 30 with a college degree when she walked out with 2 kids...too bad there weren't any people in her life to tell her to grow up...this is totally on her..


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> Yeah....I noticed that too.
> 
> It is another clue IMO that her BH kicked her to the curb immediately and hard and now wants as little to do with her as possible.....that's why she feels so single and on her own, not mentioning even having a co-parent.
> 
> ...


Lamenting that she is a single mom is like killing your parents and then crying that you are now an orphan...she seems clueless and I get the feeling she wont be getting it anytime soon...

Also the divorce being "smooth and amicable" is her version - who knows how her husband felt at the time but I'm sure he is glad to be rid of that mess...


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> Don't see why you would speculate that he had something going on the side.....I think the WW would have mentioned that if it was true.....it would have made her, "The M was bad and we drifted apart" viewpoint much stronger and believable if she could have declared her BH was doing the same as her.
> 
> Or BH might have just have been one of those guys who said "Get the h*ll out of my life cheater, I want nothing more to do with you EVER."
> 
> ...


You might be right, I was speculating based on the divorce being clean and drama free.

I've seen a lot of cheating wife threads here and I've yet to see one where there was no drama and it was clean. 

It would be easier for you to do that with a gf, assuming there were no kids, but they had kids and a life. It's just hard for me to believe it would be drama free when the guy loses daily access to his kids and probably had to pay alimony and child support if he didn't also want out.

But I could be wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> People with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, always think they are normal. They think they are the catch, everyone thinks like them.


Oh yeah the authoer is primarily about one person herself - she is going ot find happiness and if she has to drag her two kids with her so be it...SMH


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> did you notice how she described herself as a "single mom" - was it to elicit sympathy because A) Her kids do have a father B) she caused this mess...


Yes I did notice it! Your right, she is wearing the 'Single Mom' title as a badge of honor. However, that badge of honor only belongs to women who find themselves in that situation due to unfortunate circumstances or no real fault of their own. That badge should not be worn by women who find themselves 'Single Moms' by design, poor judgement, or bad character & morals. This woman is nothing but a miscreant.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Two thoughts about this.

one is; too many people get married because 'that's just what you do'.

and 'we all deserve to be happy'. Says who?


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> It would be easier for you to do that with a gf, assuming there were no kids, but they had kids and a life. It's just hard for me to believe it would be drama free when the guy loses daily access to his kids and probably had to pay alimony and child support if he didn't also want out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I could possibly see him wanting to get out of the marriage quickly just based on her story. I would desperately want to escape being married to a woman with her pompous , entitled and narcissistic personality. Especially if he knew about the OM; he ran for the door and didn't look back. Smart man. 



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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> He thought my tattoos were cool when my husband did not, we shared an appreciation for swear words...


Here's a f&*%ing photo of her


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Oh yeah the authoer is primarily about one person herself - she is going ot find happiness and if she has to drag her two kids with her so be it...SMH


I always find articles like this amazing. The writers have no self awareness at all. If they did they would be ashamed to expose their awfulness. I always wonder if it is a shock to them when people start responding and 99% of the responses tell them how awful they are. It must be like the end of a twilight zone episode for them. But the twist is their own character, they are the ones without the pig nose. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eye_of_the_Beholder)


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> But she was 30 with a college degree when she walked out with 2 kids...too bad there weren't any people in her life to tell her to grow up...this is totally on her..


I agree


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> I could possibly see him wanting to get out of the marriage quickly just based on her story. I would desperately want to escape being married to a woman with her pompous , entitled and narcissistic personality. Especially if he knew about the OM; he ran for the door and didn't look back. Smart man.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe, but as much as everyone likes to see that happen in such cases it rarely works out like that. 

At least based on what we see on TAM. The betrayed usually wants to work it out due to panic and then progresses to wanting out, but it's never without drama.

None of it makes her choices ok though. Hopefully they coparented ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> She never mentioned working on her marriage - you would think having 2 small children would make you at least try...something tells me she's been watching too many movies or reading too many goofy novels...


You said the magic word...work. why work on it when you can run off to fantasy land and chase "happiness" that so many convince themselves they arent.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

She reduces all the pain she caused to "errors in judgment". This is why cheaters are a special brand of bad people and I highly recommend dumping them immediately when their nasty secrets are brought to the light of day.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

She was, like most WWs, wreckless. It's all about her. The kids are an after thought. To be honest she sounds like the typical adulteress you read about on LS. 

To bad she didn't do some research on TAM, LS, and SI. She would have found out that even though women are willing to blowup their families for their AP. Very few men are willing to do the same. 

Is it because the "family" courts financially punish fathers and reward mothers? Maybe it's because woman usually get custody and the husband will be relegated to part time dad every other weekend. Or maybe it's the thought of their kids potentially enduring an abusive step father or boyfriends. Or maybe it's the thought of basically abandoning your flesh and blood kids to spend your time around some other man's kids.

I'm sure it's a mix of all of the above. Whenever I read about men who are willing to blow up their families for an AP, the guy was usually in a truly sexless marriage or was himself a BH. If those are not the case, the man story sound so weak. Reading their threads, you want to kick their @ss and tell them to man up.


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## dash74 (Jan 3, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> Here's a f&*%ing photo of her




Fake I don't see yolo on her anywhere


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> It sounds like her hb wasn't that happy with her either, if he wasn't paying much attention and the divorce was clean and amicable.
> 
> Hvll, he may have had something else himself...


Or he could be absolutely devastated, still crying himself to sleep in the fetal position night after night, unsure how to fight for her knowing in his heart she is checked out and his only option is the 180 of making himself look indifferent hoping she'll see his strength and true love for her by letting her find what she needed herself and hoping it will be him, only that chance was completely obliterated when she professed all her love for this other man, plan A, whom she is more distraught about than the man who wanted to provide for her and made vows until his death. She just might not know it because he is putting on his strong game face - I say this knowing that my ex would have viewed our amicable divorce in a very similar way as this woman.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Maybe, but as much as everyone likes to see that happen in such cases it rarely works out like that.
> 
> At least based on what we see on TAM. The betrayed usually wants to work it out due to panic and then progresses to wanting out, but it's never without drama.
> 
> ...


lifeistooshort,

Yes....we often see that at TAM and on other infidelity boards.....but as I posted earlier, I think this is a skewed sample/representation.

BSs, especially men, who are simply the GTFO type with their WSs are FAR less likely to come post on an infidelity board.

They don't need/want advice on what to do....they just do what they know they have to.

TAM and other boards, on the other hand, are filled with people looking for a way to R or at least for answers.

Oddly enough, as I said, I am a GTFO person.....my cheating exLTgf was out 15 minutes after I confronted.

I came here years later looking for answers for why someone would stay with a cheater after it was accidentally disclosed in a family argument (long story I've posted on before) that my maternal grandmother was a serial cheat, but my grandfather stayed with her and even raised her A child (my aunt).

I have zero doubts or second thoughts on how I dealt with the cheater in my life......but knowing the family truth and finally understanding so many things that had confused me as a child about my family interactions sent me looking for answers.

So, just because we rarely see it on these boards, we have to always be conscious that MANY BS do simply kick their WS to the curb hard after discovery.....we just don't often see them posting on these boards.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Lamenting that she is a single mom is like killing your parents and then crying that you are now an orphan


Which, by the way, is the definition of "chutzpah":

"Leo Rosten in The Joys of Yiddish defines chutzpah as "gall, brazen nerve, effrontery, incredible 'guts', presumption plus arrogance such as no other word and no other language can do justice to". In this sense, chutzpah expresses both strong disapproval and condemnation. In the same work, Rosten also defined the term as "that quality enshrined in a man who, having killed his mother and father, throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan". " (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chutzpah)


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## Pinksapphire (Jun 18, 2016)

She was silly enough to believe a loser. Now she is even more stupid thinking she is better off for getting divorced. What I don't understand is how her husband just let her go so easily. The whole thing scares me.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Pinksapphire said:


> She was silly enough to believe a loser. Now she is even more stupid thinking she is better off for getting divorced. What I don't understand is how her husband just let her go so easily. The whole thing scares me.


She probably told him if he didn't he would never see his children again. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Well that's what happens when you meet when you're 17..... you are immature and aren't ready to be in a permanent relationship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What if you meet when you are late twenties? Would a (at that time) mature person desire to destroy two marriages or is that the behavior of a still immature mind? I contest that many people show little difference in maturity at 17, 27, 37, 47, 57......... 

Physical growth all but stops at roughly 17-18 yoa with the exception of neural pathways which can continue on for several more years. Once that growth stops, further development is highly unlikely/impossible. Furthermore, that mental development needs stimuli in order to occur.

As with physical development, the more stimuli experienced the more the body responds. The same is true with intellect, the more it is "stressed" the more development occurs.

Sadly, as our lives become easier and easier and that stimulus is removed, the less cognitive we become. If this continues, in a few more generations we will be a species of idiots, it is the natural course.


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## Pinksapphire (Jun 18, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> She probably told him if he didn't he would never see his children again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I never thought of that. It would be incredibly unfair for the father. This whole thing is horrible.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> Yes I did notice it! Your right, she is wearing the 'Single Mom' title as a badge of honor. However, that badge of honor only belongs to women who find themselves in that situation due to unfortunate circumstances or no real fault of their own. That badge should no be worn by women who find themselves 'Single Moms' by design, poor judgement, or bad character & morals. This woman is nothing but a miscreant.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agree 100% - she is using that to elicit sympathy for her "plight" - many waywards do this after dday in a similar manner lamenting how difficult their lives have become - how much they hate themselves, blah,blah,blah - all of it is to elicit sympathy for themselves and take the focus off what POS they were to their BS...remember with cheaters it is ALWAYS about them..ALWAYS



jorgegene said:


> Two thoughts about this.
> 
> one is; too many people get married because 'that's just what you do'.
> 
> and 'we all deserve to be happy'. Says who?


I think her definition of happy is in some fantasy storybook and she is trying to live that out in real life...she will never find it and when she is older and bitter you know who she is going ot blame? not herself but her ex-husband or her ex-POSOM!!!


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I always find articles like this amazing. The writers have no self awareness at all. If they did they would be ashamed to expose their awfulness. I always wonder if it is a shock to them when people start responding and 99% of the responses tell them how awful they are. It must be like the end of a twilight zone episode for them. But the twist is their own character, they are the ones without the pig nose. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eye_of_the_Beholder)


Oh yeah I have no doubt she is surprised by the comment sections at HuffPo...she is not aware how shallow and selfish she sounds..after reading her article you could tell she is clueless and well as selfish...she could care less about her kids or her XH...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

honcho said:


> You said the magic word...work. why work on it when you can run off to fantasy land and chase "happiness" that so many convince themselves they arent.


She shows no desire to work at all and I think when she gets her next relationship the pattern will repeat itself if the guy is not acting like the lead in some Hallmark movie...the real tragedy is she will be dragging two kids along with her on this fruitless journey...but she is not thinking about them just her happiness..



LucasJackson said:


> She reduces all the pain she caused to "errors in judgment". This is why cheaters are a special brand of bad people and I highly recommend dumping them immediately when their nasty secrets are brought to the light of day.


She in no way looks at what she did as truly bad or a relfection on her poor character...in her twisted mind this was necessary for her to find happiness..Her XH will be fine - it the kids who will suffer - kids always do..



jsmart said:


> She was, like most WWs, wreckless. It's all about her. The kids are an after thought. To be honest she sounds like the typical adulteress you read about on LS.
> 
> To bad she didn't do some research on TAM, LS, and SI. She would have found out that even though women are willing to blowup their families for their AP. Very few men are willing to do the same.


She was reckless and naive - those are the nicest words I can find for her - she thught she'd be walking off into some fantasy world - then the movie ended...she blew up a decent family life that could have been salvaged for nothing - and took a wrecking ball to her kids world..man she should be mother of the year..SMH


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

tech-novelist said:


> Which, by the way, is the definition of "chutzpah":
> 
> "Leo Rosten in The Joys of Yiddish defines chutzpah as "gall, brazen nerve, effrontery, incredible 'guts', presumption plus arrogance such as no other word and no other language can do justice to". In this sense, chutzpah expresses both strong disapproval and condemnation. In the same work, Rosten also defined the term as "that quality enshrined in a man who, having killed his mother and father, throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan". " (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chutzpah)


Agreed - but I have a feeling her fantasies will not leave her easily...


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think Thomas Jefferson is turning over in his grave as he sees how his Enlightenment ideal of pursuit of happiness is turned into a battle cry for entitlement. Instead of enlightened self-interst, we have entitled self-interest.

Her loneliness. Her emptiness. Her unhappiness. All of these things she seems to feel are caused by others, esp. her poor H. I agree that the quick divorce may well indicate that he was unhappy, too. Who wouldn't be with a clueless, entitled spouse like this?

The thing is, when we bring children into the world we don't get to expect our own happiness as a right. We dedicate ourselves to the job of raising our children to healthy adults. We try to balance our lives, their lives, and hope for the best.

I read things like this all the time and they make me want to let loose with a primal scream. Here is yet another married person with children who is a hit and run driver in multiple people's lives. She ruined her own marriage and invaded the marriage of her prince charming. Worst of all, she was too selfish to see that she owed it to her children to at least try to act like a responsible adult.

I always ask where the kids were in all this drama. They are afterthoughts to these stupid cheaters. Poor kids.

My .02. End of rant.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

The way she has no remorse is despicable.
Poor ex husband, I hope he's met a woman now who will be loving & loyal. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> I think Thomas Jefferson is turning over in his grave as he sees how his Enlightenment ideal of pursuit of happiness is turned into a battle cry for entitlement. Instead of enlightened self-interst, we have entitled self-interest.
> 
> Her loneliness. Her emptiness. Her unhappiness. All of these things she seems to feel are caused by others, esp. her poor H. I agree that the quick divorce may well indicate that he was unhappy, too. Who wouldn't be with a clueless, entitled spouse like this?
> 
> ...


This post is spot on! Any married person that nukes their family - with children involved for their AP is a special kind of selfish scum - there is no redeeming them...

You hit the nail on the head with the term entitled self-interest - she is entitled to her "fantasy book" life and damn it if she has to steam toll 3, 4,5 or more lives to get there - she will do it..

Her actions are not something to be proud of but something to be ashamed of - it shows what a small person she truly is - very small person....The words "work" "duty" and "loyalty" are not in her vocabulary...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MrsAldi said:


> The way she has no remorse is despicable.
> Poor ex husband, I hope he's met a woman now who will be loving & loyal.
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


Even if she hater her XH you would think she'd express some concern for the well being of her kids...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

One more thing - how healthy is it for kids to see their parents date different people after getting divorced? That has to be upsetting...


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Even if she hater her XH you would think she'd express some concern for the well being of her kids...


She was only thinking of herself, very selfish reasons to leave a marriage because of boredom. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MrsAldi said:


> She was only thinking of herself, very selfish reasons to leave a marriage because of boredom.
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


Exactly - what a great expample she is setting for her kids...


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Wow..this woman is not only remorseless but clueless...
> 
> 
> I made some errors in judgment and take responsibility for my actions. I share all of this to say I am not perfect; no one is. We all make mistakes, but we still deserve happiness. It took going through a divorce and being left brokenhearted to begin truly learning who I am as my own person and what I really want — the one thing I never gave myself the opportunity to do while I was in a relationship all of those years.
> ...


I call this ELPS - Eat, Love, Pray syndrome

I look at this as poor business management. 
I would ask her what her ROI (return on investment) was.

Yes, I do agree that we all deserve happiness. However, you don't deserve happiness at the expense of others.

And being a better mother? Perhaps. Did it really take becoming an adulteress and blowing up your family to do this? Couldn't she have reinvested in the marriage and change what was "lacking" instead of going into the arms of another man and creating issues that ultimately lead to the destruction of her family?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agree 100% - she is using that to elicit sympathy for her "plight" - many waywards do this after dday in a similar manner lamenting how difficult their lives have become - how much they hate themselves, blah,blah,blah - all of it is to elicit sympathy for themselves and take the focus off what POS they were to their BS...remember with cheaters it is ALWAYS about them..ALWAYS
> 
> 
> 
> I think her definition of happy is in some fantasy storybook and she is trying to live that out in real life...she will never find it and when she is older and bitter you know who she is going ot blame? not herself but her ex-husband or her ex-POSOM!!!


Her next article will be: "How both the men in my life let me down."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

snerg said:


> I call this ELPS - Eat, Love, Pray syndrome
> 
> I look at this as poor business management.
> I would ask her what her ROI (return on investment) was.
> ...


It's clear she wasn't thinking - in her mind her new life was going to be all rainbows and unicorns...as far as her being a better mother? I don't think so...you are right blowing up your family and demonstrating that in the face of adversity it is ok to cheat and then to leave sets a HORRIBLE example for your children...absolutely awful. How can she teach them honesty and responsibility? 



MattMatt said:


> Her next article will be: "How both the men in my life let me down."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly, that is the thing in her mind it will NEVER be her fault ever.

*On an unrelated note I hate it when a cheater says "I lost it all" - you didn't lose it all genius you GAVE it all away..big [email protected]#$%^& difference...*


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Man such a tough crowd. I liked the article. She was putting herself out there and it was honest and she made a dumb embarrassing mistake. I think she wrote it not to make herself look like the victim but to show how foolish she was, and I think there is power in the truth and i bet that spoke to a lot of people. I think she is brave to write that. I'm surprised by all the hate and backlash. People make stupid mistakes... They are human.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Wait for it.......


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Lon said:


> Or he could be absolutely devastated, still crying himself to sleep in the fetal position night after night, unsure how to fight for her knowing in his heart she is checked out


If this cat's doing that, he's doing it to himself. At some point you have to come to an understanding that when you married someone, you no longer need to "fight" for them. If they're out ho hopping with someone else and want to "be" with someone else, the marriage is worthless and you're wasting you life trying to keep them. 
If their love for you ain't strong enough to make them want to stay loyal to you, what the hell are you fighting for in the first place. Even if you win, your marriage licenses is nothing more than a salvage title.



katiecrna said:


> She was putting herself out there and it was honest and she made a dumb embarrassing mistake.


She didn't make a dumb mistake divorcing her husband. She had nothing left for him and hated being married to this guy. She may not have got the "love of her life" but its just a matter of time before the next "love of her life" comes along.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

VladDracul said:


> If this cat's doing that, he's doing it to himself. At some point you have to come to an understanding that when you married someone, you no longer need to "fight" for them. If they're out ho hopping with someone else and want to "be" with someone else, the marriage is worthless and you're wasting you life trying to keep them.
> If their love for you ain't strong enough to make them want to stay loyal to you, what the hell are you fighting for in the first place. Even if you win, your marriage licenses is nothing more than a salvage title.
> 
> 
> ...


That is what she wrote. BUT she might have reinvented her marriage history to justify to herself that she was right to dump her husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> Man such a tough crowd. I liked the article. She was putting herself out there and it was honest and she made a dumb embarrassing mistake. I think she wrote it not to make herself look like the victim but to show how foolish she was, and I think there is power in the truth and i bet that spoke to a lot of people. I think she is brave to write that. I'm surprised by all the hate and backlash. People make stupid mistakes... They are human.


I didn't get that from reading her at all - she is a woman on a mission to find "prince charming" - good luck with that.

This was not some dumb mistake - she destroyed her family and would have been part of destroying another family - it's evil not some "silly mistake"


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> If their love for you ain't strong enough to make them want to stay loyal to you, *what the hell are you fighting for in the first place. Even if you win, your marriage licenses is nothing more than a salvage title.
> *


The BS doesn't "win" anything if the WS stays with them when you think about it - what have they won exactly? More time spent with someone who betrayed you in a a pretty depraved way....in R I dont think the BS could be said to have "won" anything really...


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I think she wrote it not to make herself look like the victim but to show how foolish she was, and I think there is power in the truth and i bet that spoke to a lot of people.


To wear that foolishness like a badge of honor seems... foolish.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> To wear that foolishness like a badge of honor seems... foolish.


The authoer of this article dos not seem remorseful for what she did to her family at all...she is going to drag her kids with her on this dumb quest of hers - despite the effects it might have on them...


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> More time spent with someone who betrayed you in a a pretty depraved way....in R I dont think the BS could be said to have "won" anything really...


You got that right. Call it a Pyrrhic victory.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> You got that right. Call it a Pyrrhic victory.


I understand why some people R but I'd hardly call it a "win" for the BS....


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> That is what she wrote. BUT she might have reinvented her marriage history to justify to herself that she was right to dump her husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My position is if she gave a crap about her husband and the marriage, she'd have nothing to justify or write about.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> My position is if she gave a crap about her husband and the marriage, she'd have nothing to justify or write about.


Given the tone of her article I'd say the one person this woman truly cares about she see in the mirror everyday...


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> Man such a tough crowd. I liked the article. She was putting herself out there and it was honest and she made a dumb embarrassing mistake. I think she wrote it not to make herself look like the victim but to show how foolish she was, and I think there is power in the truth and i bet that spoke to a lot of people. I think she is brave to write that. I'm surprised by all the hate and backlash. People make *stupid* mistakes... They are *human*.


Well said and very accurate for most humans. As to her being brave, what exactly is brave about not facing life's challenges but rather running away to find your happiness? And I can assure you that, based on her words, to her it was neither dumb nor embarrassing. She is entitled to her happiness and no one, including her H and children will get in the way of that. You are correct in that her words should speak to a lot of people but it will be interpreted two different ways by different individuals. Those only interested in their own happiness at any cost will see it as you have and it will champion their cause to perhaps blow up their own family in their quest for something that only can be found within. The rest will see her as horribly immature and lacking empathy and understanding. As I see it the article itself was yet another self serving venture into self justification and it only serves to further highlight her lacking cognitive ability.

And, as I read the title again, I noticed something most curious. Notice the term "return the favor". She could have said "reciprocate" or "respond in kind" or even "choose me over his family". Instead she chose a word that implies her being owed something from him, something she deserves. No thought of what his W and kids deserve, let alone hers but rather what he owed her. Fascinating.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> You might be right, I was speculating based on the divorce being clean and drama free.
> 
> I've seen a lot of cheating wife threads here and I've yet to see one where there was no drama and it was clean.


Then you're not paying attention. I've heard several here who posted like this. My sis has done it twice; she wants to be with the new OM so she makes the divorce easy.

When the WS is pining over the AP, they tend not to fight divorce because they think they have a new place to land.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

NoChoice said:


> And, as I read the title again, I noticed something most curious. Notice the term "return the favor". She could have said "reciprocate" or "respond in kind" or even "choose me over his family". Instead she chose a word that implies her being owed something from him, something she deserves. No thought of what his W and kids deserve, let alone hers but rather what he owed her. Fascinating.


To be fair to the author an editor at HuffPo could have chosen the title BUT the tone of her article fits that title perfectly. Her life is about what she is owed and no one else. Not her H or kids - just her. I do think in some twisted way she views herself as almost noble for pursuing her "happiness". 



larry.gray said:


> Then you're not paying attention. I've heard several here who posted like this. My sis has done it twice; she wants to be with the new OM so she makes the divorce easy.
> 
> When the WS is pining over the AP, they tend not to fight divorce because they think they have a new place to land.


That makes sens and is why many here counsel the BS to use the affair fog against the WS to get the most beneficial divorce terms possible.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> To be fair to the author an editor at HuffPo could have chosen the title BUT the tone of her article fits that title perfectly. Her life is about what she is owed and no one else. Not her H or kids - just her. I do think in some twisted way she views herself as almost noble for pursuing her "happiness".
> 
> 
> 
> That makes sens and is why many here counsel the BS to use the affair fog against the WS to get the most beneficial divorce terms possible.


I went to "divorce moms.com" and found the article by searching the title so unless the editor at Huffington chooses titles for articles on that website I would assume it was submitted for publication by the author as written. It lists her as a guest author on the site.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> Then you're not paying attention. I've heard several here who posted like this. My sis has done it twice; she wants to be with the new OM so she makes the divorce easy.
> 
> When the WS is pining over the AP, they tend not to fight divorce because they think they have a new place to land.


No, I meant from the betrayed's end. It's just hard for me to imagine that a guy who didn't want the divorce and now has a cheating wife, loses regular access to his kids, and has to pay alimony/child support would have what the ex would call a drama free divorce. That's all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

NoChoice said:


> I went to "divorce moms.com" and found the article by searching the title so unless the editor at Huffington chooses titles for articles on that website I would assume it was submitted for publication by the author as written. It lists her as a guest author on the site.


Wow you do your homework :smile2:


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

NoChoice said:


> I went to "divorce moms.com" and found the article by searching the title so unless the editor at Huffington chooses titles for articles on that website I would assume it was submitted for publication by the author as written. It lists her as a guest author on the site.


Some of the comments at that site under the article are awful...

"In my case my second husband asked me to marry him even though we were both married and I had 2 children. It is over 40 years and he still feels the same way.

Don't give up. Be true to yourself, keep going, and someone some day will realize you are perfect for him. It will happen when you least expect it."

"Love the courage it takes to make mistakes in life and get back up and keep going. That's what makes us better humans. "


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Here is how she sees herself









This is how her ex-husband might view her









This is how her children might see her


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Here is how she sees herself
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The encouraging comments at divorce mom were sickening...


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> No, I meant from the betrayed's end. It's just hard for me to imagine that a guy who didn't want the divorce and now has a cheating wife, loses regular access to his kids, and has to pay alimony/child support would have what the ex would call a drama free divorce. That's all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have three personal stories that are the same; a good friend of mine, the parents of a friend of my daughter and my sis/exBIL. My state only does alimony for extreme cases, like a wife putting her husband through med school (she's paying the tuition through her wages). Child support is by who has the kids. Kids get in the way of "finding herself" so dad has them more. Two have mom paying dad, one is neither paying. Two of the three dad got the house.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Here is how she sees herself
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent.

And how she is in reality


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> Then you're not paying attention. I've heard several here who posted like this. My sis has done it twice; she wants to be with the new OM so she makes the divorce easy.
> 
> When the WS is pining over the AP, they tend not to fight divorce because they think they have a new place to land.


I agree. My ex-SIL was in her "in love" stage with her 2nd OM when my BIL filed for divorce. It went smoothly and they are now divorced 6 months later. The 3 years prior to that were hell for him but divorce process with amicable.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> No, I meant from the betrayed's end. It's just hard for me to imagine that a guy who didn't want the divorce and now has a cheating wife, loses regular access to his kids, and has to pay alimony/child support would have what the ex would call a drama free divorce. That's all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't have children but I knew I'd be on the hook for alimony and asset splitting. Fiscally I knew divorce would cost me. I didn't want the divorce but I also knew legally I had no chance to stop it or slow it down. 

I wanted no drama, I would have given her the easiest divorce I could to avoid a soap opera. While she was living with the new Mr perfect and she was "happy" I figured I would get the best deal divorce wise so I tried to get the quick easy divorce. I also knew that as long as her perfect world was going on any attempts by me to save the marriage were fruitless so I stayed out of her way as much as possible figuring paradise would blow up quickly and then maybe we could see about trying to repair our marriage. 

She drove all the drama and reveled in it. Most of my friends who have divorced it's been the ws driving the drama circus. It's part of the no win game the bs is forced to play. If you fight to save a marriage your controlling and obsessed or whatnot, if you want a fast easy divorce you don't care and it was "meant to be".


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

VladDracul said:


> If this cat's doing that, he's doing it to himself. At some point you have to come to an understanding that when you married someone, you no longer need to "fight" for them. If they're out ho hopping with someone else and want to "be" with someone else, the marriage is worthless and you're wasting you life trying to keep them.
> If their love for you ain't strong enough to make them want to stay loyal to you, what the hell are you fighting for in the first place. Even if you win, your marriage licenses is nothing more than a salvage title.


You're ignoring the pain of a broken heart. No matter how bad one is treated, it takes time to overcome the pain and hurt of losing the future you thought you would have had.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> One more thing - how healthy is it for kids to see their parents date different people after getting divorced? That has to be upsetting...



This is something I TOTALLY agree with. I'm so sick and tired of people saying, "kids are resilient". It's honestly just something us grown ups say to make ourselves feel better. Kids are NOT resilient. If anything they are even more affected, because they don't have the life experience adults have.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

She wants a medal!

And here it is!


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> This is something I TOTALLY agree with. I'm so sick and tired of people saying, "kids are resilient". It's honestly just something us grown ups say to make ourselves feel better. Kids are NOT resilient. If anything they are even more affected, because they don't have the life experience adults have.


Agreed!! I know a couple who divorced - awful situation -infidelity and OC - it had it all - the kids have been introduced to his 4 new gfs and her new semi live in BF - how the fvck is that good for their psyche? plus the OC has to deal with finding out their true parentage when they grow up - talk about double fvcked...when i brought this up to a mutual friend then I was looked at as the looney...btw the smei-live in BF is OM number 2 or 3 or more we are not sure...she is a remorseless cheater...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> She wants a medal!
> 
> And here it is!
> 
> View attachment 45929


Oh you know she thinks she deserves a medal for being so "brave"...


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

larry.gray said:


> You're ignoring the pain of a broken heart. No matter how bad one is treated, it takes time to overcome the pain and hurt of losing the future you thought you would have had.


Of course Larry. But how many have you seen prolonging the agony by convincing themselves they are losing their soul mate and the only woman they could ever love. With her tattoos and a proclivity and appreciation of swear words, I can see why he'd have trouble losing such a classy dame. If she smoked a couple of packs a day and dropped the butts in a half full Starbucks cup, I don't know how he can stand it. By the time she ditched him, its already too late, she mentality moved them out weeks or month before and replaced him with the new stooge. 
Sure the BH is upset because he's lost the love of his life and the only one he wants to be with.... until he meets another lady with a chassis, horsepower and torque to make him forget he ever had a broken heart. Than he'll have a new soul mate and the love of his life. It happens every day.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> Of course Larry. But how many have you seen prolonging the agony by convincing themselves they are losing their soul mate and the only woman they could ever love. With her tattoos and a proclivity and appreciation of swear words, I can see why he'd have trouble losing such a classy dame. If she smoked a couple of packs a day and dropped the butts in a half full Starbucks cup, I don't know how he can stand it. By the time she ditched him, its already too late, she mentality moved them out weeks or month before and replaced him with the new stooge.
> Sure the BH is upset because he's lost the love of his life and the only one he wants to be with.... until he meets another lady with a chassis, horsepower and torque to make him forget he ever had a broken heart. Than he'll have a new soul mate and the love of his life. It happens every day.


The first thing any healthy person has to do is ditch the idea of a "soulmate" - that is a fairy tale to make people feel bad for losing a VERY replaceable partner - people should fix their mate picker and they wont need to entertain the idea of a soulmate just the ability to find a good person...


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Doesn't seem like she's learned a thing. Oh well. Any old Spore fans?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Irh5Wm67XGY


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

honcho said:


> I didn't have children but I knew I'd be on the hook for alimony and asset splitting. Fiscally I knew divorce would cost me. I didn't want the divorce but I also knew legally I had no chance to stop it or slow it down.
> 
> I wanted no drama, I would have given her the easiest divorce I could to avoid a soap opera. While she was living with the new Mr perfect and she was "happy" I figured I would get the best deal divorce wise so I tried to get the quick easy divorce. I also knew that as long as her perfect world was going on any attempts by me to save the marriage were fruitless so I stayed out of her way as much as possible figuring paradise would blow up quickly and then maybe we could see about trying to repair our marriage.
> 
> She drove all the drama and reveled in it. Most of my friends who have divorced it's been the ws driving the drama circus. It's part of the no win game the bs is forced to play. If you fight to save a marriage your controlling and obsessed or whatnot, if you want a fast easy divorce you don't care and it was "meant to be".


It's not just BS that cause that.

My first wife (and only actual marriage) were having a very amicable breakup. I kept personal gifts and clothes and about $200 worth of power tools, and my martial arts gear that she had no interest in. The house was to be kept as shared property because local land prices had put it into negative equity, and she was to manage it and the mortgage (as she lived closer and worked in the bank). I also got the overdraft and the loans and credit card debt. And she got everything else (yes I had to go get some paper plates and supermarket cutlery, and go to the Sallies for a bed).

All fine...until she started talk to her female friends and female lawyer who talked her into wanting more, and then the lawyer drama started (I had to represent myself as all my income went to paying off the debts (and rent)). Some people just can't help creating drama and feeling entitled to moar...


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> The first thing any healthy person has to do is ditch the idea of a "soulmate" - that is a fairy tale to make people feel bad for losing a VERY replaceable partner - people should fix their mate picker and they wont need to entertain the idea of a soulmate just the ability to find a good person...


I'm sure somewhere there is a person that would make you happier and more contented than anyone else, which could be characterized as a soulmate, the love of your life, etc. That person however is never anyone who'd screw around on you and/or ditch your ass for another.
I don't want to hear any crap from BHs about how much they love her and she's to only one in the world for them and their life is sh-t without her. If they'd lived in another town, they'd never met the her (or him as the case my be).


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> I'm sure somewhere there is a person that would make you happier and more contented than anyone else, which could be characterized as a soulmate, the love of your life, etc. That person however is never anyone who'd screw around on you and/or ditch your ass for another.
> I don't want to hear any crap from BHs about how much they love her and she's to only one in the world for them and their life is sh-t without her. If they'd lived in another town, they'd met the her (or him as the case my be).


I think there are personality types that are good matches for us but no one person per se..and your point that if they'd lived in another town they would be with someone else saying the same thing. If she cheats on you she is a lot of things but a "soul mate" or even a loyal mate inst one of those things..


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## CTPlay (Apr 26, 2015)

I read the words I take responsibility for my actions yet I see nothing to indicate any accountability. 

Let me say this loud and clear.

Suffering is not taking accountability or owning the responsibility of your actions.

That is the message that has resonated here at TAM and one that often drives away WAS.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

If you want to read an almost limitless supply of the same self-centered, irrational, emotion driven egotism.....just go read the threads in the Loveshack OM/OW/WS section.

It will make your skin crawl, BUT it is very enlightening to see how their thought processes work.

It is amazing to see the posts of people who are almost entirely driven by their emotions, almost without a single shred of logical or realistic thought in their selfish heads.

I refuse to date anyone who I discover has ever cheated or been an AP after getting a glimpse into how entitled and emotion driven they are on that site.

Might as well sign up to be a punching bag in the gym......because they are so screwed up there is no way they could turn their thought process around to be stable in a relationship.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> If you want to read an almost limitless supply of the same self-centered, irrational, emotion driven egotism.....just go read the threads in the Loveshack OM/OW/WS section.
> 
> It will make your skin crawl, BUT it is very enlightening to see how their thought processes work.
> 
> ...


Agreed - cheating in a previous relationship is a deal breaker for me..no person is guaranteed to be faithful but someone with a history of infidelity gets crossed off the list immediately....

I think I'll stay away from loveshack - SI is bad enough with their waywards section and their little stop signs..


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

CTPlay said:


> I read the words I take responsibility for my actions yet I see nothing to indicate any accountability.
> 
> Let me say this loud and clear.
> 
> ...


Exactly many cheaters say how "bad" they feel and how much "self-loathing" they have - um ok - so what - cheaters bring that on themselves how about pain and self-loathing and other nice goodies they inflicted on their BS - the Bs did not get the ego boost or the sexual pleasure the WS did...I grow tired of WS talk of how they "punish" themselves - they also punished alot of other people along the way...such utter bullsh!t comes from the mouths of waywards...


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

Dyokemm said:


> If you want to read an almost limitless supply of the same self-centered, irrational, emotion driven egotism.....just go read the threads in the Loveshack OM/OW/WS section.
> 
> It will make your skin crawl, BUT it is very enlightening to see how their thought processes work.
> 
> ...


A person who was involved with a married person and definitely if they cheated in their past marriage, should be an instant deal breaker for ltr status.

I've gotten enough of a glimpse into the mind of a wayward on LS to know that these are train wrecks that should be avoided at all costs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Exactly many cheaters say how "bad" they feel and how much "self-loathing" they have - um ok - so what - cheaters bring that on themselves how about pain and self-loathing and other nice goodies they inflicted on their BS.


In other words, for cheaters it's still always about THEM and not the person (or people, if there are children) they hurt.

That is the epiphany that is rarely seen.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Talk about a victim mentality, not once does she consider the damage she did to her kids, her ex-husband, the OM's wife who did nothing to deserve it, potentially the other guys kids, her family, his family. It's all about her and how she's a victim because OM didn't blow up his family for her.

I wonder if she's realized yet that OM just wanted to get in her pants and never had any intention of leaving his wife for her?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> In other words, for cheaters it's still always about THEM and not the person (or people, if there are children) they hurt.
> 
> That is the epiphany that is rarely seen.


Exactly - it always comes back to them - they blow up their marriage and then cry that they are surrounded by the rubble - forget the fact that their BS and kids are buried underneath the rubble...and I have said this a million times whatever scars the WS does have are SELF-INFLICTED - the scars the BS has were a lovely present from their WS...I also come to believe being a victim of infidelity is like a death - the scars remain..which is why cheaters are insanely selfish people...

If you read the Wayward section at SI - you see this there on full display - they come their to vent about their problems - problems that happened because they cheated...

I understnad people do R everyday but can not be convinced the marriage is ever the same - can it be good enough - sure - but special again - no way..infidelity destroys that forever...


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

"We all make mistakes, but we still deserve happiness".

this is the most intriguing part of her dissertation to me, with which I completely disagree.

here is what i think the truth is:

1. we all WANT happiness (at last the vast, vast majority)
2. We all have the RIGHT to pursue happiness (under the constitution).

but we don't DESERVE happiness. happiness in and of itself is not a right. I hear this often, and speaks to a culture of entitlement.
who gave us the entitlement to be happy? God? no The government? no. Natural law? no. some esoteric new age paradigm? maybe, but if so, i'm not familiar with it.
because we say so and think so? Good luck with that.

Our happiness comes from knowing the truth, making the right decisions, circumstances and providence whether Divine or otherwise.
if we make many wrong or seriously wrong decisions we will probably be very unhappy, and that's what she doesn't get.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

knobcreek said:


> I wonder if she's realized yet that OM just wanted to get in her pants and never had any intention of leaving his wife for her?


No she thought he was he soul mate - she is a fool who will wander blaming everyone else for her unhappiness...the OM has his family and the OM's kids have an intact family - can't say the same for her kids...she is a truly remorseless selfish creature...


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

My observation is folks don't discover their new soul mate that they've never love like that before until they've lost interest in their old soul mate that they've never loved like that before.


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> Or BH might have just have been one of those guys who said "Get the h*ll out of my life cheater, I want nothing more to do with you EVER."
> .....
> So the D went swiftly because her BH wasn't going to tolerate her selfish crap.


BAM. That's what I did.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agreed - cheating in a previous relationship is a deal breaker for me..no person is guaranteed to be faithful but someone with a history of infidelity gets crossed off the list immediately....
> 
> I think I'll stay away from loveshack - SI is bad enough with their waywards section and their little stop signs..


I don't blame you.

But there are two things that are interesting about the LS forum, even though it can be infuriating to read.

1..... There is no Stop Sign.....so BS can and sometimes do make great posts that flame them and call them out.....though it rarely makes a lasting impression in their selfish views/actions.

2.....SI will not allow ACTIVE WS/AP to post who are not at least trying to end the A......LS gives you a glimpse into what active, justifying, and totally unrepentant cheaters think and say.....it is infuriating BUT informative as well.

And, in fairness, I want to add one further point to my post you originally quoted.

I have seen some truly repentant and reformed cheaters who post at both SI and, believe it or not, LS (and of course posters like EI or LosingHim here at TAM).....they get it and really take other WS/AP to task on their bs.

Problem is when I meet a woman who admits she has cheated in the past, I have NO way of telling if she has truly fixed her issues and reformed how she thinks/behaves in a relationship....or if she still has the same entitled and emotion driven mindset.

And it simply is not worth the risk IMO to find out.....so out the door she goes.

I did not want to make a blanket statement that EVERY cheater is unredeemable however.

I have seen posts from a few who have done the hard work to become better people....and I admire them for it.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

When my marriage blows up I won't date someone who was an AP or cheated on their husband. Mainly because I haven't met one who wasn't irredeemably oblivious as to how terrible it actually is to do that to someone, and the fact that they were actually responsible for it also escapes them. Basically any cheating spouse will portray themselves as the victim every time. It's not worth trying to pursue a relationship with someone like that unless they've been through years of therapy.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

I find it interesting that she could not be happy in her marriage when she herself described it as "having it all" yet now she feels at peace, alone, with a blown apart family, single mother of two.... I dare say she is in worse straits now than she was in her marriage. And this is happiness??? Intriguing.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

NoChoice said:


> I find it interesting that she could not be happy in her marriage when she herself described it as "having it all" yet now she feels at peace, alone, with a blown apart family, single mother of two.... I dare say she is in worse straits now than she was in her marriage. And this is happiness??? Intriguing.


There is a difference between "having it all" on paper and "having it all" in reality.

The marriage, the house, the job(s), the cars, vacations, whatever...none of it is worth a damn if you're emotionally dead because you're legally married to a person that you are barely friends with anymore.

The way I read the story is that they were very young when they met, they got married because it was the expected thing to do, had a couple kids, either weren't compatible the whole time or grew into adults that weren't compatible, she cheated, they divorced, and she is happier now.

Thing is, I've seen it in action. With and without infidelity. People who take a lifestyle downgrade and are happier alone than they were with their former lifestyle and former spouses are a thing.

If they were just a piss poor match, divorcing him was the right thing for both of them. Cheating was not.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

jorgegene said:


> "We all make mistakes, but we still deserve happiness".


The other quote I've heard, when answering "what about the kids" is "they're happy to have me happy."

No, your 3y/o son is NOT happy to be spending his weeknights without his mommy so you can shag your latest boytoy. You are the only one who buys that BS line.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> The way I read the story is that they were very young when they met, they got married because it was the expected thing to do, had a couple kids, either weren't compatible the whole time or grew into adults that weren't compatible, she cheated, they divorced, and she is happier now.


The way I red it is she is a selfish immature person who didn't even work on her marriage but chased some stupid fantasy and then woke up...she maybe "happier" or so she tells us but her kids now have a borken home while the OM's kids have an in tact family. She is not a really nice person...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

NoChoice said:


> I find it interesting that she could not be happy in her marriage when she herself described it as "having it all" yet now she feels at peace, alone, with a blown apart family, single mother of two.... I dare say she is in worse straits now than she was in her marriage. And this is happiness??? Intriguing.


She comes across as a spoiled brat...whose immaturity will never allow her to find happiness..



larry.gray said:


> The other quote I've heard, when answering "what about the kids" is "they're happy to have me happy."
> 
> No, your 3y/o son is NOT happy to be spending his weeknights without his mommy so you can shag your latest boytoy. You are the only one who buys that BS line.


The kids will pay the real price for her selfishness...they always do...


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> There is a difference between "having it all" on paper and "having it all" in reality.
> 
> The marriage, the house, the job(s), the cars, vacations, whatever...none of it is worth a damn if you're emotionally dead because you're legally married to a person that you are barely friends with anymore.
> 
> ...


No where in the article does it state she is "happier" now. Her life is different than her master plan and Mr perfect. That's it. She deserves happiness like she thinks someone will hand it to her on a plate. 

She is learning to appreciate life from different perspective, she is more humble, patient and forgiving. Maybe she should have tried to aquire these traits while still married instead of jumping in the sack with the first clown who told everything she wanted to hear.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> The way I red it is she is a selfish immature person who didn't even work on her marriage but chased some stupid fantasy and then woke up...she maybe "happier" or so she tells us but her kids now have a borken home while the OM's kids have an in tact family. She is not a really nice person...


A different take might be that she didn't "work on her marriage" because she was aware that it would do no good. If she simply didn't love him and wasn't attracted to him anymore all she would be doing is participating in a sham.

From what she described, I don't blame her for leaving the marriage. I absolutely disagree with her affair, of course.

An intact family is not necessarily such a great thing. Really depends on the family. We know nothing about the environment the OM's kids are being raised in. Could be Leave It to Beaver, could be as cold and silent as the tomb, could be pottery flying amid yelling, could be Daddy's gone a lot and Mommy drinks/cries herself to sleep at night.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> A different take might be that she didn't "work on her marriage" because she was aware that it would do no good. If she simply didn't love him and wasn't attracted to him anymore all she would be doing is participating in a sham.
> 
> From what she described, I don't blame her for leaving the marriage. I absolutely disagree with her affair, of course.
> 
> An intact family is not necessarily such a great thing. Really depends on the family. We know nothing about the environment the OM's kids are being raised in. Could be Leave It to Beaver, could be as cold and silent as the tomb, could be Daddy's gone a lot and Mommy drinks/cries herself to sleep at night.


I think she is guilty like a lot of waywards of rewriting history - making things worse than they were in order ot justify her awful behavior. She is certinaly not a good example for er kids..and I dont thinkuy her "I deserve to be happy" bullsh!t - just her way of making herself feel better for destroying her fmaily and being a cheater...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

honcho said:


> No where in the article does it state she is "happier" now. Her life is different than her master plan and Mr perfect. That's it. She deserves happiness like she thinks someone will hand it to her on a plate.
> 
> She is learning to appreciate life from different perspective, she is more humble, patient and forgiving. Maybe she should have tried to aquire these traits while still married instead of jumping in the sack with the first clown who told everything she wanted to hear.


This is her with her AP


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think she is guilty like a lot of waywards of rewriting history - making things worse than they were in order ot justify her awful behavior. She is certinaly not a good example for er kids..and I dont thinkuy her "I deserve to be happy" bullsh!t - just her way of making herself feel better for destroying her fmaily and being a cheater...


She may be rewriting, she may not. We've all heard the WAW's talk about how they just wanted out. The H didn't do anything wrong, wasn't a bad guy, but either the feelings died or were never there in the first place.

I think this woman would have been a WAW except she had an exit affair and became a WW instead.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> A different take might be that she didn't "work on her marriage" because she was aware that it would do no good. If she simply didn't love him and wasn't attracted to him anymore all she would be doing is participating in a sham.
> 
> From what she described, I don't blame her for leaving the marriage. I absolutely disagree with her affair, of course.
> 
> An intact family is not necessarily such a great thing. Really depends on the family. We know nothing about the environment the OM's kids are being raised in. Could be Leave It to Beaver, could be as cold and silent as the tomb, could be pottery flying amid yelling, could be Daddy's gone a lot and Mommy drinks/cries herself to sleep at night.


MJ,

You may be right.....but IMO then any BS like her H is FAR better off without a person who has so little devotion to their sworn word and commitment to their family....all in the name of their own 'happiness'.

For example,

My dad worked for over 30 years as a union representative for grocery stores.

He has told me he HATED it.....his dream would have been to go into the forest service and work as a ranger, preferably he tells me in a remote part of Alaska.

When I asked him once why he never tried to follow his dream, he just looked at me and chuckled.

"Because I had you, your sisters, and your mom to think about.....I couldn't just run off and do whatever I wanted or made me happy."

THAT is the type of commitment that we so often see lacking in WS like the author of this article.

When you give your word, and make commitments in life....IT IS SUPPOSSED TO MEAN SOMETHING.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

And I forgot to mention.....I know my dad learned the pain of what happens when a parent DOESN'T do this.

His mother ran off with a POSOM when he was two years old.....all because she wanted to be happy in life.

My dad knows first hand the lifelong pain that such a selfish parent inflicts on their own kids.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> Man such a tough crowd. I liked the article. She was putting herself out there and it was honest and she made a dumb embarrassing mistake. I think she wrote it not to make herself look like the victim but to show how foolish she was, and I think there is power in the truth and i bet that spoke to a lot of people. I think she is brave to write that. I'm surprised by all the hate and backlash. People make stupid mistakes... They are human.


Not even slightly.

This isn't a "damn I screwed it up" letter.

This is a self-celebration of "I'm totally wonderful person" and an open invitation to the "ignore the consequences which you do to others, self-righteousness" club, you'll see the responses in the right places telling her how wonderful she is, how appropriate she is doing things which put her needs first, and some replies also begging for reciprocation of validation for self-importance. they come out like flies to ...honey. because validating each other reinforces their own crap behavior to others as a virtue.

And that's what that letter was, a statement of intention to believe.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Dyokemm;15962377 said:


> Yep. Something that I bring up when people do the "Life is about being happy" memes, or the "Don't I deserve to be happy" philosophies.
> 
> Happiness is nice, but what about "Duty". Is that not important? The "happy crowd" really don't like it.
> Mind you the Duty crowd don't like it when I ask about the long term play....


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> The kids will pay the real price for her selfishness...they always do...


This is true...and I believe she will suffer in return - especially once her children grow up. This kind of thing is the karma gift that keeps on giving.

I believe this is an example of failed parenting, on HER parents. Young people need to be taught delayed gratification (DG) and accept short term pain to achieve long term gain. The Stanford Marshmallow experiment showed clearly those who can master this have better life outcomes. I'm not excusing her responsibility for her adult choices, but I see a lot of young people who suffer from this lack of training. Parents who indulge every whim of their kids and don't teach DG are doing them a big disservice later in life, when they either fail or need to learn this lesson through rather painful experiences. 

Instant gratification is the problem with a lot of the ills of our society, IMO.

_How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and strong. Because someday in your life you will have been all of these._


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

honcho said:


> No where in the article does it state she is "happier" now. Her life is different than her master plan and Mr perfect. That's it. She deserves happiness like she thinks someone will hand it to her on a plate.
> 
> She is learning to appreciate life from different perspective, she is more humble, patient and forgiving. Maybe she should have tried to aquire these traits while still married instead of jumping in the sack with the first clown who told everything she wanted to hear.


Problem is she hasn't changed.
If you note the ordering of the letter, the closing is about faulting the other man. HE didn't make her happy, and she is _entitled_ to happiness. The only new viewpoint is that she's going to have to hunt for someone to give it her, and not just grab anyone nearby.

Feel sorry for the Other Woman actually.

but can you imagine how much "happiness" the original letterwriter would have got from a man with a broken family, AND being in a relationship with someone who doesn't mind going out-of-relationship for a satisfaction. I think that relationship would have been an eyeopener for her...


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Yep. Something that I bring up when people do the "Life is about being happy" memes, or the "Don't I deserve to be happy" philosophies.
> 
> Happiness is nice, but what about "Duty". Is that not important? The "happy crowd" really don't like it.
> Mind you the Duty crowd don't like it when I ask about the long term play....


Duty, honor, keeping your vows are male traits. Women are about how I feel now. If she's not happy nothing else matters. Hence women initiating 70% of divorces. 

Looking at the thousands of threads from WWs on LS, you see the same pattern. Woman after woman wishing to run off with their dream MM but not able to because the majority of men don't abandon their family out of a sense of duty. The few men who do, look like weak feminine men. 

The WWs that complain or advise the other WWs, say the men that don't leave are cowards and weak, but it's not weakness that keeps these WHs with their families, it's duty. 

As for walk a way wives, the majority of the time there is another man in the picture or there was one causing the wife to detach from her husband. The amount of marital history revisionism is huge. It has to be to justify blowing up your family. Women don't do well being thought of as the bad guy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Dyokemm said:


> And I forgot to mention.....I know my dad learned the pain of what happens when a parent DOESN'T do this.
> 
> His mother ran off with a POSOM when he was two years old.....all because she wanted to be happy in life.
> 
> My dad knows first hand the lifelong pain that such a selfish parent inflicts on their own kids.


Your Dad sounds like a true Alpha. At least what an Alpha male should be if this world wasn't so upside down.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jsmart said:


> Duty, honor, keeping your vows are male traits. Women are about how I feel now. If she's not happy nothing else matters. Hence women initiating 70% of divorces.
> 
> Looking at the thousands of threads from WWs on LS, you see the same pattern. Woman after woman wishing to run off with their dream MM but not able to because the majority of men don't abandon their family out of a sense of duty. The few men who do, look like weak feminine men.
> 
> ...


You need to associate yourself with a better quality of women.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

MJJEAN said:


> There is a difference between "having it all" on paper and "having it all" in reality.
> 
> The marriage, the house, the job(s), the cars, vacations, whatever...none of it is worth a damn if you're emotionally dead because you're legally married to a person that you are barely friends with anymore.
> 
> ...


You are absolutely correct, having it all does not mean having happiness, but those people with a lifestyle of material stuff whom are happy aren't so because they have it all, it;'s because they set those goals together and worked to make it happen...

It sounds like she had no goals in her marriage, apart from getting out of it, and all the things she had were merely goals that her H thought they shared and was putting double effort towards... his reward for accomplishing it all was losing it all because his partner was disingenuous.


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## DellaStreet (Jun 18, 2016)

The false concepts of "soulmates" and "love-of-my-life" is what is deceiving and confusing people.

There is no such thing. There is someone whom you feel physically attracted to (hopefully), you discover you have common interests, similar backgrounds, shared values. Your personalities click with one another. 

So you then do what our species has been doing for thousands of years; form a devoted pair bond. Most human societies are based on this basic unit. I know there is sometimes polygamy; but even then, there are rules and structure to how it should be carried out.

I discovered that I really only loved my husband *after* I had been married for a while. Initially, it was intense physical attraction, having fun and being infatuated with him and the experience of having such a close relationship.

If, God forbid, something happened to any of your spouses; you probably, eventually, would find someone else to share the rest of your life with. If you only had one "soulmate" or one "love-of-your-life", it wouldn't be possible to bond with someone else.

I really feel that these concepts are damaging to how we conceive of marriage and relationships. We drink this in growing up. Then, we hit bumps in the road in our marriages, and we think, "oh, I must not be with my one true soulmate". I know that's a simplistic example, but you get the idea.

If people didn't hear this drivel growing up, if they were taught a sensible approach to marriage, I don't think these flights of fancy would be as common.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*She reaped what she sowed!

Now that she has made her bed, let her lay in it ~ let's face it ~ she will never be permanently happy with anybody or anything!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

DellaStreet said:


> The false concepts of "soulmates" and "love-of-my-life" is what is deceiving and confusing people.
> 
> There is no such thing. There is someone whom you feel physically attracted to (hopefully), you discover you have common interests, similar backgrounds, shared values. Your personalities click with one another.
> 
> ...


Ha ha my W and I periodically call each other LOML - pronounced "lomal". I see nothing wrong with this idea. She IS my LOML. I'm cool with that and Don't feel I've been deceived.

The way I see it, you make the choice to spend your life with your LOML and owe it to yourself and then to build and maintain a devoted marriage.

I don't think it means if she gets hit by a bus tomorrow I can't find a new soul mate.

Personally I think it's nice. Then again I still call her "my darling bride" even though we were married in the late 80's


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

jsmart said:


> Duty, honor, keeping your vows are male traits.


These are not exclusively male traits. I'm not saying you do, but this comment sounds like you hate women?

What you describe as "duty" is often simple complacency. Men and women get lazy in marriage and fail to appreciate the contribution of each partner in sustaining the relationship and family unit. Appreciation is something else that is lacking in our society.

For example, my exH used to tell me we didn't need to thank each other for our efforts, whether it was working around the home or bringing home a paycheque. I disagree. After 20 years, we divorced. It was amicable and we are all quite civilized in how we interact but it's a shame we disagreed so fundamentally on how to treat one's spouse, among other issues. I'm remarried, he's not, but I do see his attitude has shifted considerably in how he treats his new partner, who is a nice woman but objectively, not my equal. I'm not being an a$$ its simply the truth. He had to lose me to figure out how good he had it.

I can explain further the Whys of these kinds of attitudes -- again they stem from parental training or its lack -- but my point is simply that sometimes people have to fail in order to succeed. Toughing it out for "duty" has merit but only if you know exactly why you are doing so and there is a defined period where you endure a situation to either improve or end it. Marriage shouldn't be a decades-long marathon of martyrdom.


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## betrayed16 (Oct 23, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> The way I red it is she is a selfish immature person who didn't even work on her marriage but chased some stupid fantasy and then woke up...she maybe "happier" or so she tells us but her kids now have a borken home while the OM's kids have an in tact family. She is not a really nice person...


Exactly. If she was truly unhappy, then all she had to do was divorce her ex. Starting another relationship while she was still married proves that she's now rewriting history. You don't get to claim the marriage was bad AFTER you've committed adultery. You have no credibility once you've gone down that path.


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

@Dyokemm PREACH IT BROTHER!!


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

betrayed16 said:


> Exactly. If she was truly unhappy, then all she had to do was divorce her ex. Starting another relationship while she was still married proves that she's now rewriting history. *You don't get to claim the marriage was bad AFTER you've committed adultery. *You have no credibility once you've gone down that path.


Respectfully, I believe this^ is wrong. Of course the marriage was bad. Why else would someone cheat?

The fact that someone did something as wrong as cheating doesn't mean that there weren't problems with the marriage. Cheating doesn't change history.

I'm not excusing cheating behaviour at all, but I have seen some -- not all -- BS latch onto their spouse's moral failure to cry "Foul" so they don't have to take responsibility for their own contribution to the breakdown of the marriage.

Marriage problems rarely occur in a vacuum. Should someone ideally have the strength to end a bad marriage before resorting to cheating? Of course. However, based on the stories I've read in my years on the boards, it seems that many (most?) people don't know HOW to end a bad marriage, until they do something so terrible they, or their spouse, are basically forced to it. It's a vicious cycle.

I never cheated, btw, to be clear. I had opportunity, but I didn't. I'm less sure about my ex. When I asked him about it once he said "well, I didn't want to be alone!". People need what they need, so I don't judge him. I saw how his parents interacted in our 20 years together, and his father cheated, so I understand him.

This is what I mean about the lessons we learn from our parents.


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## betrayed16 (Oct 23, 2014)

sapientia said:


> Respectfully, I believe this^ is wrong. Of course the marriage was bad. Why else would someone cheat?
> 
> The fact that someone did something as wrong as cheating doesn't mean that there weren't problems with the marriage. Cheating doesn't change history.
> 
> ...


So you accept the premise that bad marriages cause affairs? If that's the case, why didn't you cheat? Your marriage was bad, right? There's no excuse for cheating. If the marriage is irrevocably bad, then the situation calls for divorce, not cheating. Claiming that the marriage was doomed after the fact is a way of deflecting the blame for the low-life choice of committing adultery.


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## betrayed16 (Oct 23, 2014)

sapientia said:


> However, based on the stories I've read in my years on the boards, it seems that many (most?) people don't know HOW to end a bad marriage, until they do something so terrible they, or their spouse, are basically forced to it. It's a vicious cycle.


So they commit adultery and suddenly discover the existence of divorce lawyers? You end a "bad" marriage by consulting a lawyer. It's not rocket science.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

betrayed16 said:


> *So you accept the premise that bad marriages cause affairs?* If that's the case, why didn't you cheat? Your marriage was bad, right? There's no excuse for cheating. If the marriage is irrevocably bad, then the situation calls for divorce, not cheating. Claiming that the marriage was doomed after the fact is a way of deflecting the blame for the low-life choice of committing adultery.


Yes, this should be patently obvious. Bad marriage often do lead to affairs. This is the data we see in every cheater thread. Flip this around -- if a marriage was great, why would someone cheat? How many threads do we see that say "Hey! I am soooo happy in my marriage -- I want to cheat!"

I've already agreed with your statement that a bad marriage requires divorce. I also stated clearly the problem as I see it, which is that people don't know HOW to end a bad marriage. There are many reasons for this, which we can discuss if you wish.



betrayed16 said:


> So they commit adultery and suddenly discover the existence of divorce lawyers? *You end a "bad" marriage by consulting a lawyer. It's not rocket science.*


I agree. You are, unfortunately, trivializing something that is, by all the evidence of all the cheating threads, extremely difficult to do.

If you reread my posts, I am in no way apologetic for those who cheat. It is, for my moral set, quite wrong. Given how few people get married saying "I'm okay with cheating", it seems to be wrong for most people. That it happens so frequently anyway says there is a disconnect between intent and reality that requires examining.

Also, I'm proactively stating not to shoot the messenger (me). I've already stated I didn't cheat, so if anyone decides to start flaming me for stating my reasonable opinion here, I'm going to just leave what could otherwise be an interesting, potentially fruitful discussion.

In other words, if you just want this thread to be an opportunity to bash cheaters, and not examine the *problem*, state so clearly and I will bow out of the thread.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

This is an interesting article. Trivialized but I agree with the main points. In my own case, my ex was extremely PA, which wore on the marriage and eventually led me to accept I couldn't change him, only myself -- partial answer to the question of why I didn't cheat:

5 Signs of a Bad Marriage No One Talks About


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Sapienta, 

I agree that usually an A takes place in a M with problems.

But not always.

I had a friend, not extremely close but I knew him and his W well.

They had a great M.....both of them were very happy.

He came to Vegas one time for National Finals Rodeo with a group of us guys.....ended up disappearing with some girl later that night on the Strip.

Was so guilty and emotional the next day....couldn't believe what he had done, he said.

Called his BW up and confessed that day, left early and went home.

We didn't see much of them after that socially, but I heard through one of my friends that was very close to them that they did eventually decide to R.

Don't know what the M is like now, in the wake of his retarded ONS.

Of course, the 'good' M they both seemed to love COULD have been an illusion.....no one REALLY knows except for them.

But the entire episode shocked the h*ll out of everyone who knew them, and I never witnessed any signs or got the feeling they were faking that they were happy together.

So, sometimes infidelity can happen in a good M too.

All it seems to take sometimes is a partner with sh*t boundaries and an opportunity/circumstances where it becomes a temptation.


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## betrayed16 (Oct 23, 2014)

sapientia said:


> Yes, this should be patently obvious. Bad marriage often do lead to affairs. This is the data we see in every cheater thread. Flip this around -- if a marriage was great, why would someone cheat? How many threads do we see that say "Hey! I am soooo happy in my marriage -- I want to cheat!"
> 
> I've already agreed with your statement that a bad marriage requires divorce. I also stated clearly the problem as I see it, which is that people don't know HOW to end a bad marriage. There are many reasons for this, which we can discuss if you wish.
> 
> ...


I disagree with your assertions, but I'm not flaming you. I don't understand what you're claiming is "shooting the messenger." How can we have a fruitful discussion if you think disagreement is flaming? Are you referring to someone else? Because I don't recall directing any aggressive words towards you.

If bad marriages cause affairs, then is the betrayed spouse to blame for the affair? That is what the original author is doing. She's blaming her husband for making her have an affair because he couldn't keep the marriage good enough for her. 

Marriage is not a sentient being. You can't place blame on something that can't make decisions. And since she is accepting none of the blame, it must then fall completely on him, but if the marriage was bad, then she had a part in it. 

Committing adultery means you lack the courage and conviction to divorce. You say they don't know how, but the how is easy. It's a matter of doing it. 

If you're too much of a coward to end the marriage before starting another relationship, then you're not a victim, you're now the transgressor. Her husband's crime by her own admission was not keeping her happy. That does not excuse her cheating, and it was not the marriage that caused her to have the affair, it was her own lack of moral conviction. I guarantee the affair caused him more emotional turmoil than if she had shot him with a gun to end the marriage.


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## betrayed16 (Oct 23, 2014)

sapientia said:


> This is an interesting article. Trivialized but I agree with the main points. In my own case, my ex was extremely PA, which wore on the marriage and eventually led me to accept I couldn't change him, only myself -- partial answer to the question of why I didn't cheat:
> 
> 5 Signs of a Bad Marriage No One Talks About


Do you mean "physically abusive"? (Usually here it means "physical affair"). It occurs to me that you are coming at this from the perspective of someone who has been physically abused. I'm coming at this from someone who has been emotionally abused. My ex abused me emotionally for more than a decade, and then she betrayed me, which was the most devastating experience of my life. I understand you may relate to the woman in this story, but she was not abused. She was simply unhappy. I, naturally, relate to the betrayed husband. My opinion would be completely different if the ex had abused her either physically or emotionally. I would still think she should have divorced instead of having an affair, but I would have sympathy for her.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> Sapienta,
> 
> I agree that usually an A takes place in a M with problems.
> 
> But not always.


Sure, or it could be that there were problems you simply weren't privy to. Speaking as someone who had a very private first marriage, with Gold Medal rugsweeping the norm, I will tell you that no matter how close you think you are to this couple only they truly know what was the true state of their marriage.

But perhaps this was truly an exception -- which reminds me of the old saying, paraphrased, there are always exceptions to every generalization... and always idiots ready to demonstrate them.

It still remains to examine why As which occur in Ms with problems aren't ended before the sad decision to cheat is made -- we are in agreement, that this is the majority of situations.

I'll give a more personal example from my own history, since someone asked -- I had the opportunity to cheat and didn't when my marriage was going south. It was actually quite a hard thing to walk away from, and cost me a lifelong friendship I would have preferred to at least have kept cordial. I also have some indication that my exH may have cheated at the very end. For sure he was seeing someone while we were separated (I don't really consider this cheating, but recognize some might).

My attitude is that, he did what he needed to survive at the time. I recognize my own contribution to the dysfunction of our marriage. To quote another poster, I fully "owned" my side of the street. Counselling helped quite a lot with this, btw. My ex refused to go, but I went anyway for the last year of our marriage.

It's easy to demonize the cheater but the truth is MOST marriage problems don't happen in a vacuum. BS are justifiably angry about the cheating, but I suspect at least some of that anger stems from a repressed knowledge they also did things that created the conditions that led to the cheating. 

In most cases, the blame is NOT entirely one-sided. This is simply my point. Or said differently: if I *had* cheated with our family friend, would that have negated 20 years of my exH passive aggressive behaviour, verbal and emotional abuse, and his anger issues?


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

betrayed16 said:


> Do you mean "physically abusive"? (Usually here it means "physical affair"). It occurs to me that you are coming at this from the perspective of someone who has been physically abused. I'm coming at this from someone who has been emotionally abused. My ex abused me emotionally for more than a decade, and then she betrayed me, which was the most devastating experience of my life. I understand you may relate to the woman in this story, but she was not abused. She was simply unhappy. I, naturally, relate to the betrayed husband. My opinion would be completely different if the ex had abused her either physically or emotionally. I would still think she should have divorced instead of having an affair, but I would have sympathy for her.


No, from the article, PA = passive aggressive. I wasn't physically abused. That would be a deal breaker for me. My ex had anger issues, certainly, and had a habit of punching walls and kicking down doors when he lost his tightly-reined temper, since he didn't have better mechanisms for expressing himself. Counselling didn't help him, since he believed he was smarter than the docs and they couldn't teach him anything. It definitely helped me. LOL. He's not evil, just really aspie. My first marriage was like raising a child for a couple decades, after that I largely decided I was done and he could be someone else's baby for the remaining decades.


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## betrayed16 (Oct 23, 2014)

sapientia said:


> Sure, or it could be that there were problems you simply weren't privy to. Speaking as someone who had a very private first marriage, with Gold Medal rugsweeping the norm, I will tell you that no matter how close you think you are to this couple only they truly know what was the true state of their marriage.
> 
> But perhaps this was truly an exception -- which reminds me of the old saying, paraphrased, there are always exceptions to every generalization... and always idiots ready to demonstrate them.
> 
> ...


Ah, "passive aggressive." Your marriage was likely just as bad or worse than the author, and yet you did not cheat. You did not cheat because you have moral conviction. You owned your part in the demise of the marriage. That's what reasonable people do. Unreasonable people cheat.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

betrayed16 said:


> My opinion would be completely different if the ex had abused her either physically or emotionally. I would still think she should have divorced instead of having an affair, but I would have sympathy for her.


Interesting. So does this make me super-human that I walked away from a potential affair with an old friend -- who, btw, told me at one very dark point that he would have married me if I wasn't married to my exH?

What *I* figured out is that "friendship" was enabling me to stay with my exH much longer than I should have. That advice came from another forum, btw, back in the day (not even sure it still exists). When I had THAT epiphany is when I kicked them both to the curb and got on with my life.

So, here's the $M question: why didn't I monkey-jump? I think this could be a very interesting discussion so I'll give a couple of my own theories, but I'd be interested to hear what others think based on my story. Maybe it will help others in similar situations?

1. My parents had a horrific divorce where my dad was taken to the cleaners by my mother. I've never forgiven her that to this day.

2. I married fully intended to die with my exH, come hell or high water. However, in our 20 years together I discovered this truth: The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart.

3. Whatever the situation with our "friend", I would eat sh!t before betraying my own values. Divorce is bad enough; cheating in a marriage is adding insult to injury for all parties. This was about self-respect and trying to retain some respect for the vows I made.

4. I needed the goodwill of my exH to be an effective co-parent. Cheating didn't seem a good way to achieve that.

5. My ex wasn't an axe-murderer, so he deserved some dignity while we killed the zombie that our marriage became. This was also for our son's sake.

5. I believe marriage is fundamentally "at will", so any decision to stay in a situation where I'm unhappy with certain behaviour is fundamentally my decision. At anytime over those 20 years, I could have voted with my feet. Which I eventually did.

6. I also believe that life's biggest lessons are learned by working through pain, not avoiding it.

I'll stop here and see what comes back for comments. :surprise:


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

betrayed16 said:


> Ah, "passive aggressive." Your marriage was likely just as bad or worse than the author, and yet you did not cheat. *You did not cheat because you have moral conviction.* You owned your part in the demise of the marriage. That's what reasonable people do. Unreasonable people cheat.


Okay, but see my last post. What does this MEAN? How does one teach this to people to avoid the ugly scenarios we see repeated here ad nauseum?


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

betrayed16 said:


> I disagree with your assertions, but I'm not flaming you. I don't understand what you're claiming is "shooting the messenger." How can we have a fruitful discussion if you think disagreement is flaming? Are you referring to someone else? Because I don't recall directing any aggressive words towards you.


I'm great with disagreement, I'm just being preemptive that if I start to get flamed for my position, I'll disengage. So far, it's been civil.



> If bad marriages cause affairs, then is the betrayed spouse to blame for the affair? That is what the original author is doing. She's blaming her husband for making her have an affair because he couldn't keep the marriage good enough for her.


No, the BS is not to blame for the affair. But they are responsible for the state of their marriage that led to conditions for the affair.



> Marriage is not a sentient being. You can't place blame on something that can't make decisions. And since she is accepting none of the blame, it must then fall completely on him, but if the marriage was bad, then she had a part in it.


I never said marriage was sentient. A marriage is a product of the actions and decisions of TWO sentient people, however. Both are equally responsible for keeping it healthy. Here is my attempt at what is probably a poor analogy:

A couple lives an unhealthy lifestyle. Let's assume both contribute with poor food choices, lack of exercise, too much alcohol, etc.

One day, one of the couple goes on an eating binge and suffers a heart attack, leaving the family devastated.

So, even though the other spouse didn't choose to participate in that binge, they share equally in the consequences of all their poor choices an behaviour to that point. Was the binge a horrible, selfish decision the other spouse didn't ask for? Yes of course it was. Could that partner have decided at any point to NOT binge and get off their @ss and exercise? Of course. But most people would agree they--together--created the conditions that led to that unfortunate outcome.





> Committing adultery means you lack the courage and conviction to divorce. *You say they don't know how, but the how is easy.* It's a matter of doing it.


I'm sorry to disagree with you, but in this I absolutely do and the data is on my side. If it was EASY more people would do it. If there is anything humans are good at, it's avoiding hard things.




> If you're too much of a coward to end the marriage before starting another relationship, then you're not a victim, you're now the transgressor. Her husband's crime by her own admission was not keeping her happy. *That does not excuse her cheating, and it was not the marriage that caused her to have the affair, it was her own lack of moral conviction.* I guarantee the affair caused him more emotional turmoil than if she had shot him with a gun to end the marriage.


I agree about the affair, but you are treating the affair as if it occurred without context. This is the point where we fundamentally disagree.

Remember, HE could have also ended the marriage at any time.

From my own experience, I can also tell you there are people who won't end a marriage even when they know they should. The reasons can be various, but usually it's they don't want to be seen as the "bad guy", or they have already checked out and just don't care enough. 

The truly passive-aggressive will actually make conditions so bad that the other spouse ends it. Or has an affair, I suppose, effectively ending it.

Cowardice comes in various flavours. Again, my point is to illustrate there can be a lot more gray in these situations than some are willing to admit. 

Remember I have already said I agree that cheating is wrong.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

betrayed16 said:


> Ah, "passive aggressive." Your marriage was likely just as bad or worse than the author, and yet you did not cheat. You did not cheat because you have moral conviction. You owned your part in the demise of the marriage. That's what reasonable people do. Unreasonable people cheat.


So I will ask again my thought experiment:

_If I *had* cheated with our family friend, knowing more of my history, would that have negated 20 years of my exH passive aggressive behaviour, verbal and emotional abuse, and his anger issues?_

Would you have given him a free pass on all his poor behaviour if I had chosen to cheat? Or would you say, perhaps, that he was at least experiencing some karma for all that had come before?


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## betrayed16 (Oct 23, 2014)

sapientia said:


> Remember, HE could have also ended the marriage at any time.


But HE wasn't the one that decided unilaterally that the marriage was terminal.


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## betrayed16 (Oct 23, 2014)

sapientia said:


> So I will ask again my thought experiment:
> 
> _If I *had* cheated with our family friend, knowing more of my history, would that have negated 20 years of my exH passive aggressive behaviour, verbal and emotional abuse, and his anger issues?_
> 
> Would you have given him a free pass on all his poor behaviour if I had chosen to cheat? Or would you say, perhaps, that he was at least experiencing some karma for all that had come before?


Of course not. He would have been responsible for his part in the breakdown of the marriage. He would NOT, however, have been responsible for your affair. That would have been your choice, and your choice alone.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

betrayed16 said:


> But HE wasn't the one that decided unilaterally that the marriage was terminal.


I'll agree with you for this specific example, since we don't have any more information other than what she posted.

We are having a broader discussion than this single poster, correct?



betrayed16 said:


> Of course not. He would have been responsible for his part in the breakdown of the marriage. He would NOT, however, have been responsible for your affair. That would have been your choice, and your choice alone.


I agree, and by extension, I would add that the affair should therefore be viewed as perhaps the final nail in the coffin, not the only one. Not even necessarily the worst one, depending on what else occurred in during the marriage. This is where a BS needs to really reflect on their own contributions to the dysfunction and own that an affair doesn't make all their prior failures okay.

On reflection of this discussion, what is becoming increasingly clear to me it that for most divorces, there seems to be a requirement for *some kind of catastrophic event* to catalyze people to take action to end their distressed marriages. Cheating is just one way this can happen. It's actually the most mundane way. Practically to be expected, once one knows the signs to look for.

Seems there aren't too many divorces that result from boiling the frog slowly. Older empty nesters might be the exception to this. It would be interesting to hear from them.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Wow..this woman is not only remorseless but clueless...


I'd also like to toss in the word "Self-centered"....


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## jusst got it 1955 (Jun 20, 2016)

alte Dame said:


> I think Thomas Jefferson is turning over in his grave as he sees how his Enlightenment ideal of pursuit of happiness is turned into a battle cry for entitlement. Instead of enlightened self-interst, we have entitled self-interest.
> 
> Her loneliness. Her emptiness. Her unhappiness. All of these things she seems to feel are caused by others, esp. her poor H. I agree that the quick divorce may well indicate that he was unhappy, too. Who wouldn't be with a clueless, entitled spouse like this?
> 
> ...


I'll give you $50 for that rant sister

55


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## betrayed16 (Oct 23, 2014)

sapientia said:


> I'll agree with you for this specific example, since we don't have any more information other than what she posted.
> 
> We are having a broader discussion than this single poster, correct?
> 
> ...


If the marriage is simply distressed, then there is always the option of marriage counseling. If marriage counseling fails, then you get a divorce. You also get the added benefit of being able to tell everyone you tried everything in your power. If the marriage is dead and it's obvious to both parties that there's no reviving it, then I dare say that the betrayed spouse probably doesn't even care.

If you go through the posts here, however, you will find that the vast majority of betrayed spouses on here DO reflect on their own shortcomings. They can see what they did wrong. Most of them are also remorseful. In most of these cases, the betrayed spouse was aware that things weren't great in the marriage, but they had no idea that the cheater was done, much less that they were pursuing other relationships.

The cheating spouse, on the other hand, like the one in the original article rarely accepts any responsibility for the breakdown of the marriage. They were unhappy, so it was their spouse's fault, and they had an affair because it was completely justifiable, no matter how devastating it was to their spouse.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

sapientia said:


> So, here's the $M question: why didn't I monkey-jump?


I think you simply chose not to do something you thought was morally wrong. Basically because you have character and that is important to you.

I don't think this stuff is a big mystery. People's actions and how they treat there SO mostly has to do with their own moral compass. I am often struck by BS who say "how could they do this to me, they say they love me." Well they do love you, but that doesn't stop them from being selfish. In their reality love doesn't stop them from being selfish and cheating, these people are emotionally handicapped. It just that there love doesn't mean much. It's like buying a car with an engine that only goes 25. 

The fact that love doesn't stop a person from cheating doesn't make sense to the faithful, because in their reality there is not way they would cheat on someone they love. There is a fundamental difference in character. 

Bad marriage don't cause affairs because if that was the case everyone who had a bad marriage would cheat, that obviously isn't the case. Bad marriage can be a catalyst for some people who are willing to cheat when they are not happy. This is why I always say the best reason not to cheat is not even because you love someone. I say this because you can always fall out of love, and there are times in marriage when you may be questioning you are in love especially when it is bad. The reason not to cheat is because of your own personal honor. 

I think it works the same way for why you didn't cheat, in your reality this is just something that you don't do. You have a stronger character then that.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@sapientia honey, what you don't get is...

Sorry I couldn't help but pander. Yes you will be assailed for violating TAM mantra that the BS is never to be questioned,

Girl, what's wrong with you????


K fun over please go back to your little fight boys and girls


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

sapientia said:


> Respectfully, I believe this^ is wrong. Of course the marriage was bad. Why else would someone cheat?Why else would someone cheat?


Alcoholism, drug addictions, boredom, sexuality, etc etc etc etc. There are many reasons people cheat in a good marriage. The comment you quote isn't wrong, it is just too cut and dry. Just like your quote above.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

sokillme said:


> I think you simply chose not to do something you thought was morally wrong. Basically because you have character and that is important to you.


While this was certainly true of how I view cheating, I think you are giving me too much credit. I may not have chose to cheat, but I sure did make other choices that I think contributed just as much to the demise of my first marriage.

I don't want to make this about me specifically, my examples are for discussion. I just happen to be available today for these posts and it's a topic that interests me. So here's a question, followed by a thesis:

*How does one rank the sin of cheating with other ways to erode a good relationship?* My ex was an awful communicator; I rarely felt listened to or supported. Is that any worse or better than cheating? Isn't emotional abuse a betrayal of a vow to Love, Honour and Cherish? What about spouses who withhold sex? Or yell at the kids, or are terrible with money... do you see my point?

Here's a thesis: *Cheating might be the most visible sin, but it's not necessarily the worst.* How many spouses who were cheated on actually themselves engaged in some of these other acts of betrayal first? One could equally argue they should have "just divorced" before engaging in those eroding behaviours, yes?

Those who live in glass houses..... should probably move when the stones start to fly.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> The comment you quote isn't wrong, *it is just too cut and dry*. Just like your quote above.


I agree with this^. I stated so in another post. I can think of situations why I might excuse or at least understand someone cheating. This is shades of gray stuff for sure.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

TheTruthHurts said:


> @sapientia honey, what you don't get is...
> 
> Sorry I couldn't help but pander. Yes you will be assailed for violating TAM mantra that the BS is never to be questioned,
> 
> ...


0

Everyone has been civilized so far. It helps that I'm an example of someone who walked away from the marriage and chose not to cheat.

What I reject is the argument that, had I done so, that this somehow would have excused my exHs behaviour. I think there are BS that honestly believe they didn't do anything to contribute to that outcome. I think, except for very rare situations, that is disingenuous.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> 0
> 
> Everyone has been civilized so far. It helps that I'm an example of someone who walked away from the marriage and chose not to cheat.
> 
> What I reject is the argument that, had I done so, that this somehow would have excused my exHs behaviour.* I think there are BS that honestly believe they didn't do anything to contribute to that outcome. I think, except for very rare situations, that is disingenuous.*


The WS is more so....In many cases the BS was just as miserable but didn't cheat..the WS used adultery to cope..this is an argument where people seem to talk past each other...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> She may be rewriting, she may not. We've all heard the WAW's talk about how they just wanted out. The H didn't do anything wrong, wasn't a bad guy, but either the feelings died or were never there in the first place.
> 
> I think this woman would have been a WAW except she had an exit affair and became a WW instead.



To be a WAS with kids is the height of selfishness..to do that to ones kids hthe person has to be pretty damned self-centered..I have no respect for selfish people like this--


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> To be a WAS with kids is the height of selfishness..to do that to ones kids hthe person has to be pretty damned self-centered..I have no respect for selfish people like this--



I think this really depends. A difference in point of view.

I'd rather model a happy single person or a healthy and loving 2nd marriage for my kids than to model a cold and/or unhappy marriage.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> I think this really depends. A difference in point of view.
> 
> I'd rather model a happy single person or a healthy and loving 2nd marriage for my kids than to model a cold and/or unhappy marriage.


I think there are tw schools of thought - if the marriage is fine but boring no need to walk away wit kids IMO...if its abusive or nasty then that is a different story..

I also think a lot of people today chase a fuzzy view of happiness...

too many people use any excuse to focus on themselves...IMO..the author of this article being an example of that...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

sapientia said:


> While this was certainly true of how I view cheating, I think you are giving me too much credit. I may not have chose to cheat, but I sure did make other choices that I think contributed just as much to the demise of my first marriage.
> 
> I don't want to make this about me specifically, my examples are for discussion. I just happen to be available today for these posts and it's a topic that interests me. So here's a question, followed by a thesis:
> 
> ...


Well to me cheating is akin to emotional spousal rape, or emotional spousal abuse. You can decide where that ranks, but it's pretty damn high. Lebron James level. 

Second your whole point is basically mote bad behavior doesn't justify other bad behavior period. The answer to your question is always, if your spouse does something that hurts you address it, if they don't stop hurting you protect yourself and leave. I don't believe in excuses for abusing someone ever.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> This is a great way to put it. I agree.
> 
> That said, to your point the BS was just as miserable, my point that they were likely doing things just as damaging as cheating, just not as visible.


Cheating is a vile betrayal - unless you are talking physical abuse - the damage cheating does is tremendous....there is no excuse to cheat...whatever your spouse is doing to annoy you doesnt give you the right to cheat..you do have th eright ot leave or separate...

Like I said this debate goes round and round...


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> The WS is more so....In many cases the BS was just as miserable but didn't cheat..the WS used adultery to cope..*this is an argument where people seem to talk past each other...*


This is a great way to put it. I agree.

That said, to your point the BS was just as miserable, I return my earlier point that they were likely doing things just as damaging as cheating, just not as visible. So while cheating is reprehensible, I wouldn't count it any less damaging than someone who consistently withholds sex, or antagonizes a spouse by being passive-aggressive, or is emotionally abusive or any number of other things calculated to hurt a spouse.

These are *all* incredibly selfish acts. What I wonder is, how many of the BS are also guilty of these acts?

Two people who are dear to me were cheated on. In both cases, while the cheating was an incredibly hurtful thing, I also observed these relationships in real time. They were both examples of people trying to put round pegs in square holes. Over a period of years, I saw lots of ugly stuff from both sides and, IMO, they should have moved on from each other long before it ever came to cheating.

I was able to see in my own first marriage that cheating, likely his but possibly also mine, was a possible outcome if I didn't put a bullet in what was already long dead. Hindsight has me consider doing this might have prevented a huge mistake that allows us today to interact with each other in a respectful way so we can be effective co-parents.

So, my reason was less to do with my personal morals and more to do with a pragmatic need to be able to engage for the sake of our son.

Maybe people need to think more about their kids from this vantage when considering what to do with their doomed marriages. People say they stay for the kids... I think a lot are afraid to leave and use the kids as an excuse to maintain status quo. Then when things continue to go south and eventually an affair is discovered they pretend to be shocked... given the number of "suspect my spouse is cheating" threads, I don't think nearly as many are truly surprised as they claim. The truth may be closer to having been afraid to take action sooner, before it reached that sad point.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> This is a great way to put it. I agree.
> 
> That said, to your point the BS was just as miserable, I return my earlier point that they were likely doing things just as damaging as cheating, just not as visible. So while cheating is reprehensible, I wouldn't count it any less damaging than someone who consistently withholds sex, or antagonizes a spouse by being passive-aggressive, or is emotionally abusive or any number of other things calculated to hurt a spouse.
> 
> ...


I think this is the fundamental point of disagreement - there are some marriages as you describer where both spouses do things but the WS takes it several notheces up by cheating. Your words seem to imply the BS was asking for it - they weren't not even close. Being in a dysfunctional relationship does not give you the right to cheat - period...cheating is abuse..cheaters are abusers...very few will admit to that but they are...


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Cheating is a vile betrayal - unless you are talking physical abuse - the damage cheating does is tremendous....there is no excuse to cheat...whatever your spouse is doing to annoy you doesnt give you the right to cheat..you do have th eright ot leave or separate...
> 
> Like I said this debate goes round and round...


I agree. There is no circular argument. 

There is also no excuse and no right to abuse a spouse, withhold sex, etc. These are equally vile. Likewise, the spouse doing these things has the right to leave or separate instead of engaging in these activities.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> I agree. There is no circular argument.
> 
> There is also no excuse and no right to abuse a spouse, withhold sex, etc. These are equally vile. Likewise, the spouse doing these things has the right to leave or separate instead of engaging in these activities.


With all due respect physical abuse and infidelity are the two most vile things you can do in a relationship...infidelity devastates a person forever - it is out of bounds...you are making things equal that ar enot equal...sorry...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> I agree. There is no circular argument.
> 
> There is also no excuse and no right to abuse a spouse, withhold sex, etc. These are equally vile. Likewise, the spouse doing these things has the right to leave or separate instead of engaging in these activities.


Ask almost any person would they rather be in a relationship with a spouse who withholds sex or cheats...I think many would opt for the former..I'm not saying its right but stop making all transgressions equal...


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think this is the fundamental point of disagreement - there are some marriages as you describer where both spouses do things but the WS takes it several notheces up by cheating. Your words seem to imply the BS was asking for it - they weren't not even close. Being in a dysfunctional relationship does not give you the right to cheat - period...cheating is abuse..cheaters are abusers...very few will admit to that but they are...


No, not asking for it. But possibly doing things equally vile, just not as visible. You seem to think that cheating is separate and distinct from other offenses that are just as harmful to a spouse. You treat "dysfunctional relationship" as separate from cheating when they are part of the same venn diagram. 

Cheating is just one example of any of a number of abusive behaviours. There is research that shows that the longterm effects of staying with an emotionally abusive partner is far worse on a person's self-esteem than someone who has a brief affair. Saying that cheating is the worst thing a spouse can do to their partner is debatable.

But when someone who has had their self-esteem pounded on by his wife's or husband's abuse finally gets desperate and has an affair, s/he is the evil perp and they should have walked away... and not the @sshole who has been slagging them for years?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> No, not asking for it. But possibly doing things equally vile, just not as visible. You seem to think that cheating is separate and distinct from other offenses that are just as harmful to a spouse. You treat "dysfunctional relationship" as separate from cheating when they are part of the same venn diagram.
> 
> Cheating is just one example of any of a number of abusive behaviours. There is research that shows that the longterm effects of staying with an emotionally abusive partner is far worse on a person's self-esteem than someone who has a brief affair. Saying that cheating is the worst thing a spouse can do to their partner is debatable.
> 
> But when some @sshole who has been pounding on his wife's or husband's self esteem for years has an affair, s/he is the evil perp and they should have walked away... and not the @sshole who has been slagging them for years?


Many if not the majority of cases of cheating are not as you described..the BS was not abusive - less than stellar perhaps but not what you are describing...you words do imply the BS did something to cause it - cheating is near the top of list of vile bechaiors right behind physical abuse - your extreme example is one where a lot of people would have sympathy for the WS but that is not the majority of cases...


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Ask almost any person would they rather be in a relationship with a spouse who withholds sex or cheats...I think many would opt for the former..I'm not saying its right but *stop making all transgressions equal..*.


You have no data to support this statement. There is no study that I have ever seen that says that cheating is worse than any other form of abuse. To my last post, the contrary is true -- there IS data on the longterm effects of exposure to emotional abuse. Many people recover from a cheater when they either find a new partner or they get "revenge" when the former spouse blows themselves up. Many spouses who endure years of self-esteem eroding emotional abuse never fully recover.

Again, just because cheating is more visible doesn't make it any less hurtful than other behaviours. BOTH spouses in dysfunctional relationships need to own ALL the sh!t they do to each other.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> You have no data to support this statement. There is no study that I have ever seen that says that cheating is worse than any other form of abuse. To my last post, the contrary is true -- there IS data on the longterm effects of exposure to emotional abuse.
> 
> Again, just because cheating is more visible doesn't make it any less hurtful than other behaviours. BOTH spouses in dysfunctional relationships need to own ALL the sh!t they do to each other.


One again you are using an extreme example of long term emotional abuse - you present an awful case to make your point when in fact cheating occurs mostly in tamer situations...


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Many if not the majority of cases of cheating are not as you described..the BS was not abusive - less than stellar perhaps but not what you are describing...


Perhaps, or perhaps not. I'm not privy to other peoples marriages. Even here, we only know what people disclose. It does seem that few people are self-aware enough to recognize and disclose their own contribution to dysfunction... particularly after they discover an affair when they are largely in self-preservation/revenge mode. Even if they knew they had done things to catalyze that outcome, they aren't likely to admit it at that point.

I think I fundamentally believe people need to take more personal responsibility for what they experience in life, including their marriages. I believe that most dysfunction in a relationship is avoidable and predictable if one knows what signs to look for and is willing to face them and act. I had to learn this from hard experience. Not everyone will agree and that's fine.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> Not everyone will agree and that's fine.


Not everyone has to agree....I just enjoy the exchange of ideas...:smile2:

I've learned a lot from people here....


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> Does it? How do you mean?
> 
> You make a good point. I suppose I do think of cheating occurring when a spouse is desperate and vulnerable. My examples are the sort we read here where a long-married couple with kids have been having lots of problems and eventually one of them blows up their life with an affair. Yes, I strongly argue from experience that situation doesn't happen without a lot of other prior dysfunction. That's my own bias, yes, and really the only scenario I can comment on with any experience.


What I mean is the problems do not even rise near the level of abuse - but other issues like bordom, appetite for variety, etc...I know of one case even close to what you desribed and they were BOTH vicious and the W cheated first and had her APs child and till this day has no remorse...they are divorced but their reltionship was VICIOUS..I used to joke they deserved eachother...that being said the adultery upped the ante a lot...


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> One again you are using an extreme example of long term emotional abuse - you present an awful case to make your point *when in fact cheating occurs mostly in tamer situations*...


Does it? How do you mean?

You make a good point. I suppose I do think of cheating occurring when a spouse is desperate and vulnerable. I didn't consider cases of "casual" affairs. Certainly, I consider those people @ssholes. That said, someone who is okay with casual affairs probably gave some indication of their attitude at some point in the courtship? Players or bad boys/girls? That's not my experience so I can't comment further, except there may be a picker or self-esteem issue for people who marry that sort.

My arguments are directed to the stories we read here about a long-married couple with kids, apparently strong early relationship but recently been having lots of problems and eventually one of them blows up their life with an affair. Yes, I strongly argue from experience that situation doesn't happen without a lot of other prior dysfunction. That's my own bias, yes, and really the only scenario I can comment on with any experience.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> Does it? How do you mean?
> 
> You make a good point. I suppose I do think of cheating occurring when a spouse is desperate and vulnerable. I didn't consider cases of "casual" affairs. Certainly, I consider those people @ssholes. That said, someone who is okay with casual affairs probably gave some indication of their attitude at some point in the courtship? Players or bad boys/girls? That's not my experience so I can't comment further, except there may be a picker or self-esteem issue for people who marry that sort.
> 
> My arguments are directed to the stories we read here about a long-married couple with kids, apparently strong early relationship but recently been having lots of problems and eventually one of them blows up their life with an affair. Yes, I strongly argue from experience that situation doesn't happen without a lot of other prior dysfunction. That's my own bias, yes, and really the only scenario I can comment on with any experience.


My life has been filled wiht these stories - it is part of what brought me to TAM = of all the cases I personally know about only one was as you desribed and I outlined it above. The others were not in abusive marriages - a bit dull perhaps - but not abusive. In one case a person I knew form HS was going through a bad patch with her H - he had a stressful job - was short tempered at home - she would even tell you he was not abusive at all-this was not a lifetime but a rough patch - so she started banging her ex boss in her house on the couch and only stopped becuase he stopped talking to her and cut it off he was married as well.....never really felt guilt about it..another case was a man who cheated his whole marriage because he liked sex with different women and his son inherited that and did the same thing...those are just two..i could tell you more stories just from my personal life...


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

That's shocking and definitely not my experience. An affair is a scandal where I'm from and not taken at all lightly. So people find other ways to "express" their inner @sshole, I suppose. All equally distasteful.

So there is our difference, in the starting assumption. Interesting.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> That's shocking and definitely not my experience. An affair is a scandal where I'm from and not taken at all lightly. So people find other ways to "express" their inner @sshole, I suppose. All equally distasteful.
> 
> So there is our difference, in the starting assumption. Interesting.


I know of a case where the couple is divorced and elderly and the man is not aware one of their grown children is not his...his wife had an eye for the men until her 60s!! Numerous affairs with men both married and single from what I understand... His grown child knows but does not have the heart to tell their dad now at this stage in his life he is in his late 80s and not in good health...


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think there are tw schools of thought - if the marriage is fine but boring no need to walk away wit kids IMO...if its abusive or nasty then that is a different story..
> 
> I also think a lot of people today chase a fuzzy view of happiness...
> 
> too many people use any excuse to focus on themselves...IMO..the author of this article being an example of that...


People in marriages that are fine, but boring tend to stay. People in marriages that are not fine tend to leave. If the couple have detached, the marriage is not fine. It's a sham.

I'm not talking about chasing a fuzzy view of happiness. DH is constantly calling me a pessimist. However, I do believe in a healthy, loving, marriage. And I think the way adults in such a marriage behave is good for the kids. I think a marriage without the "little things" being modeled for kids teaches them to accept less from their own future relationships.

My DH and I kiss, hug, hold hands, cuddle, laugh, joke, occasionally argue, debate and/or talk about pretty much everything over meals, watch "our shows" together, shop together, plan together, and so on. We also can be heard giggling and talking to each other in bed at night (old house, shyte noise insulation...they can hear we're talking, but not what we say) and I am pretty sure they can hear us having sex if we go to bed when one of them is still awake.

I wouldn't want my kids raised in a house without that, where the parents had no real affection and passion for each other. I'd rather show them a fulfilling and joyful life as a single person or a good marriage.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> People in marriages that are fine, but boring tend to stay. People in marriages that are not fine tend to leave. If the couple have detached, the marriage is not fine. It's a sham.
> 
> I'm not talking about chasing a fuzzy view of happiness. DH is constantly calling me a pessimist. However, I do believe in a healthy, loving, marriage. And I think the way adults in such a marriage behave is good for the kids. I think a marriage without the "little things" being modeled for kids teaches them to accept less from their own future relationships.
> 
> ...


We might not see eye to eye 100% on this but after what you described your first marriage was like -- you give us hope happiness is possible after the rain...


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## Annette Tush (May 4, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> ..something tells me she's been watching too many movies or reading too many goofy novels...


:nerd::grin2:>


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

sapientia said:


> Sure, or it could be that there were problems you simply weren't privy to. Speaking as someone who had a very private first marriage, with Gold Medal rugsweeping the norm, I will tell you that no matter how close you think you are to this couple only they truly know what was the true state of their marriage.
> 
> But perhaps this was truly an exception -- which reminds me of the old saying, paraphrased, there are always exceptions to every generalization... and always idiots ready to demonstrate them.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with you that, as I stated in my post, there is every possibility that there were hidden problems in their M.

And I also completely agree that As in good Ms are are rare as hen's teeth.....they are FAR more likely in troubled Ms.

I was not disagreeing with your point at all.....just pointing out that sometimes (rarely) it does happen that an A occurs in even a good M simply because the WS has very poor boundaries and a situation arises where it could happen.

Lmao.....sorry if that puts me in the 'idiot' category with you.....was not meaning to irritate or poke you.....just pointing out that I think it can occur.

And I admire that you DIDN'T cheat in a bad M....as one later poster pointed out, you were in an (arguably) worse situation than the author of the article.....yet you kept your integrity.

I don't think society gives enough recognition to people who do the right thing......we are so often venting about those who behave poorly.

So kudos to you.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> I totally agree with you that, as I stated in my post, there is every possibility that there were hidden problems in their M.
> 
> And I also completely agree that As in good Ms are are rare as hen's teeth.....they are FAR more likely in troubled Ms.
> 
> ...


:grin2:

Ha, well thanks. I'm not looking for kudos, my karma for my failings in my first marriage was having to explain to my preteen that his parents were both @ssholes for not being able to sort out our sh!t living together. But that we promised to absolutely NOT be @ssholes any longer living apart. So far we have kept that promise.

Regarding that old saying, the "idiot" doesn't refer to the person pointing out the exception. I wasn't poking anyone nor irritated. It refers to the person who acts it out, i.e. the fool who breaks the rule.

Good discussion, I learned a lot. Thanks.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

No, I don't agree that cheating happens only, or even mostly, in bad marriages.

First, we should define what a Good and a Bad marriage is... The fact is that even saying that is too black and white. If you define a Good marriage as one without any problem and a bad marriage as one with problems, big or not too big... Well you would have virtually no Good marriages (except maybe some of the very young ones) and all bad marriages.

IRL every single marriage has its problems and its downsides, often very little (but little can become more serious as time goes by), sometimes bigger, and IMO the true percentage of REALLY bad marriages (the ones with real, nearly impossible to handle problems) is not really that big. And most of the Good marriages DO have problems that are actually not so big and can be handled. Also people change, and what is a little compromise today can become an enormous problem in 10,20 or 30 years.

People cheat for a variety of reasons, the most common being IMO simply falling to temptation in an average but maybe a little boring marriage, often in coincidence with personal growing little crises or changes in our life (birth of children, death of parents).

I think that being in a bad relationship has rarely anything to do with it. If that was the case:
- both people in the bad relationship would have cheated;
- all affairs would be exit affairs. Who tries to come back to a bad relationship, once they find the nerve to go out of it?
- most BS would just let the other half of their bad marriage go. Why would they even think of R?

Cheating is IMO emotional abuse in one of its most serious forms. It is second only to physical abuse in the bad things you can do in a couple.

Sure, witholding sex is also serious emotional abuse, but there is a graduality in the seriousness of things. and IMO cheating is far worse.
If my wife slapped me in the face it would be physical abuse, and something serious, but if I reacted beating her and breaking her arm that would be far worse physical abuse, for example.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

italianjob said:


> No, I don't agree that cheating happens only, or even mostly, in bad marriages.
> 
> First, we should define what a Good and a Bad marriage is... The fact is that even saying that is too black and white. If you define a Good marriage as one without any problem and a bad marriage as one with problems, big or not too big... Well you would have virtually no Good marriages (except maybe some of the very young ones) and all bad marriages.
> 
> ...


Excellent post - agree 100% - its been my experience that people cheat under circumstances not even approaching abuse or major dysfunction...


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## betrayed16 (Oct 23, 2014)

It may be semantics, but people do know HOW to end a marriage. No one has to wonder how to do it. You go to a lawyer, and you file. When people say they don't know how to end a marriage, they're saying they're unsure of their future if they do so. There are so many uncertainties, and they're afraid of what people will think. The HOW is clear. It's not a question of HOW. It's simply that they lack the courage to do the right thing.

And in many cases, the cheater never even considered leaving the marriage until they met their paramour. You hear about "exit affairs," but I have yet to come across a true exit affair.


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## rzmpf (Mar 11, 2016)

betrayed16 said:


> It may be semantics, but people do know HOW to end a marriage. No one has to wonder how to do it. You go to a lawyer, and you file. When people say they don't know how to end a marriage, they're saying they're unsure of their future if they do so. There are so many uncertainties, and they're afraid of what people will think. The HOW is clear. It's not a question of HOW. It's simply that they lack the courage to do the right thing.
> 
> And in many cases, the cheater never even considered leaving the marriage until they met their paramour. You hear about "exit affairs," but I have yet to come across a true exit affair.


You have the same things happening in LTRs where you only have to say that you are done. Most cheaters want to have both the relationship and the affair. Without the "boring" everyday life in the relationship there is nothing of the excitement and rush they experience in the affair. It's just another "boring" normal relationship.

The whole "I don't know how to end the M (or the A)" basically means "I don't want to end either".


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Let's not forget that what constitutes a good marriage is subjective and it's quite possible for one spouse to think it's good while the other doesn't. This is dependent on whether one's needs are being met, so if your needs are met but your spouse's aren't you could disagree on whether the marriage was good. 

And what constitutes a good reason to end a marriage is also subjective, and is often applied inconsistently based on what suits a person.

Here on TAM that happens all the time. 

Here's a great example: let's put aside the fact that she had an affair and consider that she ended the marriage because her needs werent being met. A lot of posters here have bemoaned how she's selfish and didn't consider the children. The implication is that divorce messes up kids lives. 

Now let's assume that's true. People in sexless marriages are told to walk all the time, so that means that one's sex life is more important than the kids, if you really believe divorce messes up kids lives. 

But kids deserve happy parents! Well that logic applies to all kinds of stuff and as we know happiness is a funny thing and the requirements for it are vastly different from person to person. 

So why is leaving a marriage because emotional needs aren't being met selfish but leaving one for sex isn't? If she didn't have sex with him and the hb had an affair and left would everyone be trashing him? I'd suspect he'd hey a little sympathy for meeting deprived of sex. 

This woman was deprived emotionally. How is that different?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

betrayed16 said:


> It may be semantics, but people do know HOW to end a marriage. No one has to wonder how to do it. You go to a lawyer, and you file. When people say they don't know how to end a marriage, they're saying they're unsure of their future if they do so. There are so many uncertainties, and they're afraid of what people will think. The HOW is clear. It's not a question of HOW. It's simply that they lack the courage to do the right thing.
> 
> And in many cases, the cheater never even considered leaving the marriage until they met their paramour. You hear about "exit affairs," but I have yet to come across a true exit affair.


Some spouses simply want to cake eat for awhile to see which flavor they like better..


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

rzmpf said:


> You have the same things happening in LTRs where you only have to say that you are done. Most cheaters want to have both the relationship and the affair. Without the "boring" everyday life in the relationship there is nothing of the excitement and rush they experience in the affair. It's just another "boring" normal relationship.
> 
> The whole "I don't know how to end the M (or the A)" basically means "I don't want to end either".


Agreed - not knowing or being able to end a relationship is often about indecisiveness or cake eating..they get to have the best of both the every day relationship and an exciting little romp on the side...


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Isn't the OM in this situation also a selfish a$$? I don't buy the fact he didn't break up his unhappy home as making him any better than the woman. I seem to remember this being implied.

I wonder if he told his wife so SHE could decide if she wanted this guy anymore. If not, that is cake eating in extreme.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> Isn't the OM in this situation also a selfish a$$? I don't buy the fact he didn't break up his unhappy home as making him any better than the woman. I seem to remember this being implied.
> 
> I wonder if he told his wife so SHE could decide if she wanted this guy anymore. If not, that is cake eating in extreme.


The OM is a POS..zero honor - zero respectability - whatever misfortune comes his way he deserves..I hope at some point his wife runs off with someone richer and better looking than him >


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Do people who have been cheated on make better partners? This happened to my H. He has superb boundaries. Mine are excellent also from my previous marriage experience re: calling out selfish behaviour.

Wondering if there may be some silver lining for having had such an experience?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> Do people who have been cheated on make better partners? This happened to my H. He has superb boundaries. Mine are excellent also from my previous marriage experience.
> 
> Wondering if there may be some silver lining for having had such an experience?


I posted an article awhile ago that said people who have been cheated on have a higher chance at being cheated on again - I think if the do the work and fix their mate picker then yeah perhaps it can make them better I'm not sure though...or perhaps they had good boundaries to begin with which is why they didnt cheat in their first marriages...I know this I would not take a chance on someone who has cheated in their previous marriage or relationship...


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Hard to know without the data. My H wasn't married to his ex, thankfully. They were both extremely busy, a buddy told him what was up. He got pics as proof and dumped her. First and last time he was cheated on. My point is that I read the stories of posters like Kivlor or Marduk and it seems to have made them better people. My own experience certainly made me less naive and more realistic about people's intentions and limitations.

Trouble with a site like TAM is it selects for the problem cases, not the successes. Only reason I still post is habit, and sense of giving back, since a part of my epiphany to exit my first marriage came from advice from an online community.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> Hard to know without the data. My H wasn't married to his ex, thankfully. They were both extremely busy, a buddy told him what was up. He got pics as proof and dumped her. First and last time he was cheated on. My point is that I read the stories of posters like Kivlor or Marduk and it seems to have made them better people. My own experience certainly made me less naive and more realistic about people's intentions and limitations.
> 
> Trouble with a site like TAM is it selects for the problem cases, not the successes. Only reason I still post is habit, and sense of giving back, since a part of my epiphany to exit my first marriage came from advice from an online community.


Let's talk about adversity more broadly - many people do come through adversity as better people...they become stronger, more empathetic, etc..if they avoid the trap of endless self-pity they can become better people I think....


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

I just found the Alpha male and cheating thread. Fascinating.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> I just found the Alpha male and cheating thread. Fascinating.


I think there ar eno hard and fast rules about alpha v. beta - not sure what that means...


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Also, I agree with you that dealing with adversity is a likely factor in cheating. It relates to my earlier thesis that parents should be training their kids for delayed gratification.

There are at least two parts to adversity, however, that might play a role. First, is tolerance for a certain amount of it. Second, is knowing "when to fold", so to speak. Lack of either can lead to problems, such as the train wrecks here on TAM where one wants to jump through the screen and say "just leave them already...everyday you stay you lose more respect!".


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think there ar eno hard and fast rules about alpha v. beta - not sure what that means...


I had never heard the terms before the forum. Same for these coloured pills a la matrix. Frameworks to help simplify some observed behaviour, I suppose. Or sell books. I deal in fluid frameworks and ambiguity so doesn't do much for me but if it helps others understand their behaviour, cool.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> Also, I agree with you that dealing with adversity is a likely factor in cheating. It relates to my earlier thesis that parents should be training their kids for delayed gratification.
> 
> There are at least two parts to adversity, however, that might play a role. First, is tolerance for a certain amount of it. Second, is knowing "when to fold", so to speak. Lack of either can lead to problems, such as the train wrecks here on TAM where one wants to jump through the screen and say "just leave them already...everyday you stay you lose more respect!".


In my experience a lot of BS lack confidence - they are afraid of what is on the other side of divorce...I understand the fear of the unknown especially if they are in a long term marriage or reltionship..


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> In my experience a lot of BS lack confidence - they are afraid of what is on the other side of divorce...I understand the fear of the unknown especially if they are in a long term marriage or reltionship..


Post-cheating you mean? I guess that is consistent with the people I know who were BS. They all took time away from relationships to recover. Some of the advice here is exactly opposite, however. To immediately get back on the horse and ride. I can see how that can work provided they recognize their vulnerability and don't immediately get sucked down the relationship rabbit hole.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

sapientia said:


> Do people who have been cheated on make better partners? This happened to my H. He has superb boundaries. Mine are excellent also from my previous marriage experience re: calling out selfish behaviour.
> 
> Wondering if there may be some silver lining for having had such an experience?


Very true IMO Sapienta,

As Nietschze said.....That which does not kill you, makes you stronger.

I do think adversity teaches people a lot.....provided they take the time to reflect on what they went through and the lessons for them in those experiences.

Great point.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> Post-cheating you mean? I guess that is consistent with the people I know who were BS. They all took time away from relationships to recover. Some of the advice here is exactly opposite, however. To immediately get back on the horse and ride. I can see how that can work provided they recognize their vulnerability and don't immediately get sucked down the relationship rabbit hole.


I think when you experience any adversity it is important to reflect and pull out the life lessons form it. I've always heard you cant control what happens to you just your reaction to it. Easier said than done but it is true. I think many WSs could use the time to reflect on tehir character flaws and how to be abetter person as well..in my experience many don't but they should. They have even more work to do than the BS IMO.



Dyokemm said:


> Very true IMO Sapienta,
> 
> As Nietschze said.....That which does not kill you, makes you stronger.
> 
> ...


Adversity moresoe than success can be a great teacher. Not that we like it but if we let it - adverstiy can teach us a lot. 

A question for both of you - do you think the adversity of cheating is more likely to get the BS to reflect more so than the WS?


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think when you experience any adversity it is important to reflect and pull out the life lessons form it. I've always heard you cant control what happens to you just your reaction to it. Easier said than done but it is true. I think many WSs could use the time to reflect on tehir character flaws and how to be abetter person as well..in my experience many don't but they should. They have even more work to do than the BS IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes.

I think we see it here too on the threads.

Most BS, even when they know the truth that the cheating was 100% about their WS's issues/problems because it was not the only, and definitely not the best, choice available if they were unhappy in the M....they still go through a laundry list of things they did wrong in the M Pre-A.

They are reflecting on what happened and processing lessons for themselves.

This is something I rarely see WS do....they usually make a statement about how the choice to cheat was horrible....and then inevitably follow with BUT.....and add a laundry list of what their BS did to make the M bad.

They rarely, if ever, take ownership of the fact that they played a part/role in how bad the M had become.

In fact, IMO in most cases they are are probably equally, or even more, guilty of emotionally withdrawing, neglect, etc, or whatever other faults they lay at the feet of their BS.

IMO, they are probably more guilty of these things because I think the fact they went on to have an A is primary evidence that they were already behaving selfishly before they ever crossed the line.

I do not believe the myth of the long suffering WS who suddenly 'breaks' under the strain of their BS's poor behavior.....a theme you hear a lot in WS posts on this and other threads.

I bet many WSs would be shocked to hear that their BS probably had a lot of complaints about THEM Pre-A....but the BS didn't cheat.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> Yes.
> 
> I think we see it here took on the threads.
> 
> ...



The myth of the long suffering WS - is just that a myth the WSs tell themselves to make their choice to cheat seem more palatable. If their BS is so bad then they must to be such a sh!t for cheating on their spouse - it makes it easier to deal with their disloyal behavior. 

I have always said the BS is in the same poor marriage and DIDN'T cheat - why the difference in behvior? It goes straight to character IMO. You read cases here and on SI where BSs still deal with the pain from their WS's affair even though it is more manageable now - The WS frequently deals wiht no such issues years after their betrayal. They are content to live with the injustice they have dealt out to their BS. In cases of multiple APs or a LTA I really do scratch my head trying to figure out why a BS would stay indefinitely - till the kids are gown or the finances settled I get that but once you are free of that why not see what is out there?

I think the affair FORCES the BS to deal with it if they want to heal. As we have seen rugsweeping only works out for the WS not the BS. They need to dig in and do the work while the WS can walk away untouched. Which is why I believe the BS must deal out some consequences...


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

The long suffering wayward spouse is mostly marital history revisionism. There seems to be a lot of coddling of WWs in general. We feel compelled to equally dole out blame to the BH. 

For men, they rightfully are called on their bull$hit when they betray their wives and families but for women we have to be gentle. They're not bad. It was a mistake. They're actions don't define them. It's only what you think of yourself that matters.

That's why I love TAM. Here we're able to call woman on their $hit and they're held to same account as a man. Go to LS or SI and the moderators are quick to delete your post or out right ban you, lest you hurt the delicate sensibilities of the adulteress.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

This is straying into territory where I simply don't have experience. I can only say the real-life relationships with infidelity I observed (2) that the BS was not the complete victim some suggest. I one case I can even understand that the WS was driven to it, as the wife was abusively b!tchy, IMO. Perhaps my set is less likely to engage in the casual cheating some of you think more common to some marriages.

In any case, enjoy the rest of the discussion Gentleman. I'm bowing out here.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> The myth of the long suffering WS - is just that a myth the WSs tell themselves to make their choice to cheat seem more palatable.


Per my last, it's not always a myth. Not in my observation; which, since I was merely an observer and not a participant in that marriage, it must have been wretched.

That said, I'm also invoking my own quote, which is there are exceptions to every rule.

Ciao, all.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

jsmart said:


> The long suffering wayward spouse is mostly marital history revisionism. There seems to be a lot of coddling of WWs in general. We feel compelled to equally dole out blame to the BH.
> 
> For men, they rightfully are called on their bull$hit when they betray their wives and families but for women we have to be gentle. They're not bad. It was a mistake. They're actions don't define them. It's only what you think of yourself that matters.
> 
> That's why I love TAM. Here we're able to call woman on their $hit and they're held to same account as a man. Go to LS or SI and the moderators are quick to delete your post or out right ban you, lest you hurt the delicate sensibilities of the adulteress.


A lot of WS rewrite marital history to make their affair seem justifiable..as to treating WW or WHs differently I know I dont..no BH should ever take ONE ounce of the blame for their WWs decision to cheat..if they buy their WW's bullsh!t blameshifting on why they had to fvck another man then they deserve whatever is coming their way..




sapientia said:


> Per my last, it's not always a myth. Not in my observation; which, since I was merely an observer and not a participant in that marriage, it must have been wretched.
> 
> That said, I'm also invoking my own quote, which is there are exceptions to every rule.
> 
> Ciao, all.


I'm not saying there are no cases like you describe but many, many people cheat under circumstances that don't even approach abuse or serious dysfunction - they cheat because they want to..for ego, sex, whatever..


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

So in conclusion, the enlightened message from a WS would seem to be

"I regret cheating, but I don't regret that our marriage is over."

People seem to conflate the cheating and the need to end of a bad marriage. Defending one means defending the other when they can and should be treated separately.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> So in conclusion, the enlightened message from a WS would seem to be
> 
> "I regret cheating, but I don't regret that our marriage is over."
> 
> People seem to conflate the cheating and the need to end of a bad marriage. Defending one means defending the other when they can and should be treated separately.


Ending a bad marriage in a noble way is perfectly fine becoming a lying cheating a-hole is not...no matter what excuse the WS makes up...


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

The irony in the thinking is that both divorce and cheating are breaking the same set of vows. Is it better to avoid adding insult to injury? Sure, but one isn't more "noble" than the other.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> The irony in the thinking is that both divorce and cheating are breaking the same set of vows. Is it better to avoid adding insult to injury? Sure, but one isn't more "noble" than the other.


Ending a miserable marriage is way more noble than haivng an exit affair...you make a good point in both cases vows are borken but in the case of divorce its a process where both parties know what is going on..cheating not so much....


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

sapientia said:


> The irony in the thinking is that both divorce and cheating are breaking the same set of vows. Is it better to avoid adding insult to injury? Sure, but one isn't more "noble" than the other.


I'd love to sit back w/ a pitcher of beer and a plate of hot wings and watch while someone attempts to make a case for this argument.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> sapientia said:
> 
> 
> > The irony in the thinking is that both divorce and cheating are breaking the same set of vows. Is it better to avoid adding insult to injury? Sure, but one isn't more "noble" than the other.
> ...


Repeating doesn't make it so. I disagree and you don't have to agree, won't change my opinion. Our minister certainly never said there was a hierarchy to the vows b/c there isn't.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> Repeating doesn't make it so. I disagree and you don't have to agree, won't change my opinion. Our minister certainly never said there was a hierarchy to the vows b/c there isn't.


We dont agree you are correct...I dont know what to say if you think asking a spouse for a divorce becuase you are miserable in your marriage is not the more respectable thing to do versus cheating behind their back because you are miserable...lets just agree to disagree..

I have a question if you were in a bad marriage or relationship - would you rather have the person breeak up wiht you and move on or cheat on you to cope wiht their misery?


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

A minister who doesn't consider adultery one of the most evil sins?

Fascinating.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> A minister who doesn't consider adultery one of the most evil sins?
> 
> Fascinating.


Retread my post that's not what it says.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

sapientia said:


> larry.gray said:
> 
> 
> > A minister who doesn't consider adultery one of the most evil sins?
> ...





Truthseeker1 said:


> sapientia said:
> 
> 
> > Repeating doesn't make it so. I disagree and you don't have to agree, won't change my opinion. Our minister certainly never said there was a hierarchy to the vows b/c there isn't.
> ...


They are means to the same end. I suppose in the latter case there are two vows broken instead of just one. That's how I would probably think about it. 

But there are some that won't divorce despite cheating b/c THEY won't break any vow they made before God. There is no distinction to a broken vow, no 'ranking' the vows as more important than another, understand?

I'm not terribly religious so I'd be curious to know what someone who has lived this thinks. I do know a couple who forgave cheating b/c divorce just wasn't an option. Morality is a very personal thing.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

sapientia said:


> Per my last, it's not always a myth. Not in my observation; which, since I was merely an observer and not a participant in that marriage, it must have been wretched.
> 
> That said, I'm also invoking my own quote, which is there are exceptions to every rule.
> 
> Ciao, all.


Exceptions there sure are, but cheating doesn't usually happen in bad marriages. Most cases are normal marriages with problems (no marriage has no problem) but not what you would really call bad. It doesn't mean that it doesn't happen in bad marriages, only that this is not the most common case. 



sapientia said:


> This is straying into territory where I simply don't have experience. I can only say the real-life relationships with infidelity I observed (2) that the BS was not the complete victim some suggest. I one case I can even understand that the WS was driven to it, as the wife was abusively b!tchy, IMO. Perhaps my set is less likely to engage in the casual cheating some of you think more common to some marriages.
> 
> In any case, enjoy the rest of the discussion Gentleman. I'm bowing out here.


There is no relation between being in a bad marriage and cheating, it's like saying you shot your neighbor's dog because he parked his car in your driveway. Those are two unrelated wrongs.
The only way a spouse can drive another spouse to cheat is if they give him/her a lift to the place where they will cheat:wink2: 



sapientia said:


> The irony in the thinking is that both divorce and cheating are breaking the same set of vows. Is it better to avoid adding insult to injury? Sure, but one isn't more "noble" than the other.


Divorce is a process where you have to file, so you do it openly and in an "honest" way. If you cheat you go behind your partner's back and in secrecy, in a "dishonest" way.

So yes, honest is more "noble" than dishonest, there is no irony there. 


sapientia said:


> They are means to the same end. I suppose in the latter case there are two vows broken instead of just one. That's how I would probably think about it.
> 
> But there are some that won't divorce despite cheating b/c THEY won't break any vow they made before God. There is no distinction to a broken vow, no 'ranking' the vows as more important than another, understand?
> 
> I'm not terribly religious so I'd be curious to know what someone who has lived this thinks. I do know a couple who forgave cheating b/c divorce just wasn't an option. Morality is a very personal thing.


While it's true that many religions won't let people remarry in church and don't treat divorced people like the others, Lust is one of the 7 deadly sins, and " Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery" is right there in the ten commandments, right between "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not steal", while "Thou shalt not divorce" seems to be nowhere to be seen.
Sounds pretty serious, like some kind of ranking. I don't know where divorce is, but Adultery looks pretty high on that list...


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

There is no writing I'm aware of that ranks the sin of cheating higher than divorce. Like I said, our minister didn't say "divorce if you must, but don't cheat 'cause thats a bigger sin". Inference doesn't count, largely b/c anyone can always find support/justification for their own argument. Here's one that equates divorce and adultery, not to mention gives men a free pass on the situation:

_But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. (Matt. 5:32)_

Not sure who you are trying to convince, but if its me, its not working. Agree to disagree.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

sapientia said:


> There is no writing I'm aware of that ranks the sin of cheating higher than divorce. Like I said, our minister didn't say "divorce if you must, but don't cheat 'cause thats a bigger sin". Inference doesn't count, largely b/c anyone can always find support/justification for their own argument. Here's one that equates divorce and adultery, not to mention gives men a free pass on the situation:
> 
> _But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. (Matt. 5:32)_
> 
> Not sure who you are trying to convince, but if its me, its not working. Agree to disagree.


I'm not trying to convince anybody. Your logic speaks for itself, it would be pointless, of course,


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