# Out in the Cold



## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Is it the norm for the spouse who had the affair to feel uncomfortable with any sort of physical contact with the spouse who did not? I am not speaking of sex necessarily, I am also talking about hugging or even holding hands.

Physical contact is hugely important to me. Touch is the primary way I receive love, and she is well aware of this. I equate this refusal with cruelty if not outright abuse. Morally, I am incapable of adultery, so going outside my marriage is not an option. She knows this, and for some perverted reason, perceives this decency as weakness. 

I met my wife when I was a teenager, and I've only been with her. She had a "history" before me, and has always been a little more cavalier with her affection. Until recently though, she had always remained faithful. 

It was obvious when things began, as I am generally a very perceptive man. I could forgive a single transgression, but I cannot wrap myself around serial adultery. She of course denies everything despite, a neighbors wife coming to my clinic and telling me of my wife's affair with her husband, and various intercepted e-mails. 

I feel I am being pressed to file for divorce, so she can declare to her legions of friends that it was I, her arrogant and workaholic husband, that left the union. I personally could care less what her friends think. My concerns are about how my family and my God view me, nothing more.

She has said all of the typical "BS" about how she cares about me, and that I'm a good person. To me this is the verbal equivalent of "she has a nice personality". I am tired of being rejected by my wife, especially when she has obviously accepted others. 

What really pisses me off, is I have seen these men. Physically and mentally they aren't impressive. I would have hoped she would at least have tried to "trade up". Instead she went slumming. Is it normal for women to "cheat down"? I know it's attention she was seeking, but WTF woman have some dignity.

I am a martial artist, and have been for years. I find the vigorous training cathartic and it helps clear my mind so I can perform better in a stressful profession. In my opinion, it hurts less to be kicked in the head than it does to be "pushed away" from my wife. I am so conflicted now because part of me views her as sullied and repulsive. I know she senses this. She too is perceptive. 

I am a very good looking man. I am very physically fit. I am a professional. I make a low six figure salary. I have worked my @ss of for my family so we could have nice things and she could stay home. Yes, I work a lot, but it's the norm for my profession, and the price of success.

I am not rationalizing, I am just lost at what I missed. She even sarcastically calls me "perfect" when we fight. I guess this is supposed to get at "my perception of me", but I am the first to admit that I'm flawed. The big difference between us is that when I perceive a flaw, I strive to fix it, she just embraces her imperfections.

I know I'm just rambling at this point, and I know I need to move on with my life. However, she is the first person that I loved, and I am still enamored with the person that she was. Occasionally, I still see glimpses of that person, and they are more precious to me than diamonds.

For anyone reading this post that has been cheated on, can you relate to any of the above? For anyone reading this post who has cheated on their spouse, from the limited information you've been given, where was I culpable in this? Finally, how does one resolve the trust issues to be able to move forward into a new relationship with some level of emotional health? LIL


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## bestblu1 (Oct 21, 2009)

Has she expressed true remorse for what she has done? And if so, have you told her that you forgive her? Have you expressed your true feelings for her and she for you? In other words have you both or either of you truly attempted to be humble about your mistakes and talked about your deepest feelings for each other? Because it sounds like, from your post, that you are both still angry with each other and are not trying to understand what caused this as much as you are trying to justify your positions.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

You're experience is very close to mine.

My wife absolutely DID NOT END the affair until I got a lawyer.

I know what you feel about not wanting to be the 'fall guy' for pulling out the D-lawyer...but really it's not that way. She's cheating on YOU, that's why you need the lawyer.

My wife hit a massive stone wall of reality that she either stopped, or was on the receiving end of a divorce. That brought her around over a year ago and we've been rebuilding since.

You should consider doing the same thing.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She perceived the other men as finding her enchanting. Her attraction was based on how they felt about HER, not what she thought of them. 

The girl from highschool I have the most intensely positive sexual memories of was not the prettiest girl I dated. She was a bit above average but she was REALLY into me. Really found me hot. 

Is it perhaps that your wife knows she has let you down, knows that you have high standards and somehow feels "less then" when around you?

I would truly lose my mind without touch. Touch is most of how I feel love and absolutely not just sex. Spooning to me is joy. 
And I like alternating being the spooner/spoonee since that way you get both sides.




lastinline said:


> Is it the norm for the spouse who had the affair to feel uncomfortable with any sort of physical contact with the spouse who did not? I am not speaking of sex necessarily, I am also talking about hugging or even holding hands.
> 
> Physical contact is hugely important to me. Touch is the primary way I receive love, and she is well aware of this. I equate this refusal with cruelty if not outright abuse. Morally, I am incapable of adultery, so going outside my marriage is not an option. She knows this, and for some perverted reason, perceives this decency as weakness.
> 
> ...


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

No bestblu1, she hasn't expressed any remorse. This has made it impossible for me to forgive her. She is not a rational woman. She does not logically answer queries point for point, and you are dead on right; we are both angry with one another.

I have apologized as recently as Sunday for my failures to her as a husband. However, she views concession as weakness and admission as justification. In my opinion, one cannot justify adultery, but one can forgive it if the other asking forgiveness is truly contrite of heart. She is not. I cannot. The was continues. LIL


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## bestblu1 (Oct 21, 2009)

I am a Christian. My wife is a Christian. We have been married for 35 years.

She denied her affair for 12 years. As long as I was not able to provide proof, I could not get her to fess up. If you want to save your marriage, I recommend that you investigate. It feels kind of creepy to check up on your wife's email records, phone records, etc. I felt sneaky and almost dirty, but I finally found out that she was involved with this guy long term, by checking her cell phone records online. I printed out the phone records and highlighted all the calls and text to and from "him". I gave her a copy. I then told her one morning before leaving for work that when I got home that night she would have to tell me everything. If she would tell me everything, I promised to try to work things out and I would not leave. If she would not tell me everything but I found out weeks or months later (and I promised her I would find out), then it would be over for good. I was very serious and she knew it. She had all day to think about it.

That night when I got home, she told me everything. It was extremely hard for both of us, but we have since overcome the pain and are successfully working things out. 

This approach may or may not work for everyone but it worked for us. The key for us is that we both became very humble and confessed our faults and forgave each other. I, like you, was a workaholic. It damaged our relationship tremendously. I had to accept the fact that my marriage was more important to me than my success. I scaled down my time at the office, and the funny thing is, I have been more successful as a result of it because my time is more wisely appropriated when I am working. 

If you want to read my whole story (and it's a long one), you can read the thread I started at "Long Term Marriage Success" and then go to the thread "How We Overcame Adultery".

good luck


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## Beninyourshoes (Jul 31, 2009)

I would guess that from reading your post that you are a Proud person, and a bit of a perfectionist. Don't take that the wrong way, I have some of those tendencies as well. As far as getting a divorce and having forgiveness, adultery is one of the grounds that allows divorce in the Bible. Of course it is better if you can work things out. 

What are the possibilities that she doesn't feel she can please you but she looks for other outlets to feel acceptance, appreciation, desirable. I for one played a similar roll as you described. I was dragging in the six figure income, had all the nice stuff, working 90 hrs a week, everything was perfect, Right. Wrong, I found out in counseling that my wife could care less about the money, the house, the cars, She just wanted a husband around to spend some time with her. It's been said before, "if your not at home taking care of business, someone else will."

Now I work 50hrs a week not bringing in the big $$$'s, spend lots of time with the wife and kids. She's happy, the kids are happy, no one is taking care of my wife for me now. :smthumbup: The only problem, now my ego is bruised a little and I feel less than I should but I am trying to make things work and I have accepted part of the blame for the family problems.

One other thing, she probably is not real touchy feely right now because she is probably ashamed of her actions. I know my wife once she came back down to Earth and started thinking straight again, could not believe the things she had done and how many problems she created by not communicating with me about how she felt and the resentment she had towards me working all the time. I have learned or figured out that success and happiness is not measured up the same for Men and Woman.

I felt like my success was measured by how much money I could bring home. Not necessarily the same for a women.

Good luck, be strong and get some counceling. You might be surprised what you find out about yourself.


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## COFLgirl (Oct 9, 2008)

lastinline said:


> Is it the norm for the spouse who had the affair to feel uncomfortable with any sort of physical contact with the spouse who did not? I am not speaking of sex necessarily, I am also talking about hugging or even holding hands.
> 
> snip
> 
> ...


Hi LIL, I've read quite a bit of your story here...I'm sorry for the pain you are going through. It hurts like h*ll, doesn't it? 

I was also the spouse who was cheated on and I can relate to some of what you write here. Let me take a stab, as a woman, at what your wife is feeling/doing. Even though I didn't cheat in my marriage, women understand each other differently than men can understand women (no big surprise there, huh?)

My guess is that it is guilt and shame that is causing your wife to pull away from you. Her comments about you being 'perfect', her refusal to hold hands or have physical contact, etc, says to me that she is a bad place with her own self-perception. So, when she sees you being 'perfect' in her mind, it just adds to her self-doubt. This feeling of self-doubt is also apparent in the 'trading down' in her choice of affair partners. It's sickening, isn't it? Here it is your wife with the problem and it just adds insult to injury that she has degraded your marriage, your feelings and your love for her in such a way.

My guess is your wife is deeply insecure. In all my reading about infidelity, the causes of it, what makes someone cheat on their spouse, it seems a lot of the time it comes down to some type of insecurity. I saw it my own situation with my H; I learned a lot about my H in the process of recovering from infidelity. And no, not that he could and did cheat on me...but I learned a lot more about him, as a person. What I learned gave me the strength to extend another chance.

LIL, your wife must figure out how to deal with her shortcomings and insecurities. This is something she has to figure out her own...you know, the old saying, 'you can't really love someone else if you don't love yourself'. It's trite but true. Your wife is damaged somehow...perhaps something in her past has left old wounds. I bet if you think on it, you might be able to figure out what it might be.

In time, your wife might be willing to let you help her with her feelings of inadequacy to some extent, but it really must come from her. Until she sees this, there is little you can do. Have either of you considered IC?

I'm not sure any of this helps, LIL. But you are to be commended for hanging in there and wanting to keep your marriage, despite all obstacles. Good luck to you!


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## iwillsurvive (Mar 4, 2009)

I will maybe give you a different perspective on this. My husband cheated on my with his "first"- his high school girlfriend. He has always been enamored with the person she was, the person he first fell for. So when she came back into his life and said all the right things to him, he fell hard and fast and destroyed our marriage and family in the process. 

She was definitely a "trade down" per say. She is skanky white trash. She has several kids from several men, ended her own marriage because her husband cheated, but then turned around and doesn't mind being the mistress to a married man! What kind of person does that?

My husband did actually confess the affair, but then lied and lied and lied about cutting off contact with her. He just couldn't let go of whatever she was in his mind. And in the end it turns out she just used him. But he still has these lingering "feelings" of who she was and for some reason still has this hold on his heart. Even now, he realizes that she isn't that person and isn't good for him, but there's still that memory that he's drawn to. It frightens me to no end- because she's out of our life now, but what happens if she walks back in . . . 

It sounds like you are in a similar situation with your wife. You have an image of who she was, who you first fell in love with, and you can't let go of that, even though that's not who she is anymore. And you probably aren't the same person either- that's part of life, we all change. But if you take a good, hard look at who she is now- is she really the person you want to be with? Is she worth the heartache and pain? If she is showing no remorse, not wanting to make things better, when she's the one that committed the cheating, you need to think long and hard if you are willing to live the rest of your life with a person who is punishing you, even though she did wrong. 

You know her best. But I do think Sven is right in that she needs to know you are serious. She needs to know that you are not ok with a marriage like this. And if she isn't happy, and doesn't want to right her wrongs, then she needs to leave. She may be trying to "force" you to file for divorce, but in my mind, the cheating spouse should be the one to leave (unless the other wants to)- once they step outside the marriage, they lose the privilege of getting to claim what they "want". She's been selfish, now it's your turn to be. You need to let her know what you want. Offer to go to counseling or do whatever it takes to fix it, but do not let her treat you like a doormat and have you keep doing the apologizing. It's not wrong to admit what you can do better- but it needs to be a two-way street. She also needs to be willing to change. Otherwise it will never work.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

bestblu1 said:


> I am a Christian. My wife is a Christian. We have been married for 35 years.
> 
> She denied her affair for 12 years. As long as I was not able to provide proof, I could not get her to fess up. If you want to save your marriage, I recommend that you investigate. It feels kind of creepy to check up on your wife's email records, phone records, etc. I felt sneaky and almost dirty, but I finally found out that she was involved with this guy long term, by checking her cell phone records online. I printed out the phone records and highlighted all the calls and text to and from "him". I gave her a copy. I then told her one morning before leaving for work that when I got home that night she would have to tell me everything. If she would tell me everything, I promised to try to work things out and I would not leave. If she would not tell me everything but I found out weeks or months later (and I promised her I would find out), then it would be over for good. I was very serious and she knew it. She had all day to think about it.
> 
> ...


Bestblu1, I don't need to investigate. The woman that originally came to my clinic offered all of the phone records of the "blessed event" to me. It just caught me so off guard at the time, that my first reaction was denial. 

They have since divorced as a couple, so I suspect there was "merit" in her claim. I just didn't have the intestinal fortitude to take and examine her "evidence" at the time. I still don't know if I do, "but I know what I know if you know what I mean", and that's enough. The last I think was a lyric from a Cheryl Crow song. 

I'll take your advice and read your thread Sir. It just sucks to be here. In so many ways my life has "came together", and now in so many ways it has "came apart". LIL


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Beninyourshoes said:


> I would guess that from reading your post that you are a Proud person, and a bit of a perfectionist. Don't take that the wrong way, I have some of those tendencies as well. As far as getting a divorce and having forgiveness, adultery is one of the grounds that allows divorce in the Bible. Of course it is better if you can work things out.
> 
> What are the possibilities that she doesn't feel she can please you but she looks for other outlets to feel acceptance, appreciation, desirable. I for one played a similar roll as you described. I was dragging in the six figure income, had all the nice stuff, working 90 hrs a week, everything was perfect, Right. Wrong, I found out in counseling that my wife could care less about the money, the house, the cars, She just wanted a husband around to spend some time with her. It's been said before, "if your not at home taking care of business, someone else will."
> 
> ...


I here what your saying beninyourshoes about your wife not caring about status or money. However, my wife created the monster she now has. It was her that suggested I become what I am, and stop being what I had always wanted to be. It was her direction that motivated me to excell in school and push myself onward. You can't exactly "make your own hours" and have a successful medical practice, at least not in the beginning.

You are right about the time thing though. It has been one of her primary complaints, especially in the last three years. She probably is lonely, I sure the hell am. She is just so friggin inconsistent. One one hand she tells me to go out and "do stuff" with other Dr.s. Make friends. Develop outside interests. Then on the other hand when I actually do something outside, like my martial arts, she laments how I can make time for that and not some other thing.

In short, she says a lot of things she doesn't really mean. I think she does this so when she "plays back the tapes" she can be on record as having supported the "right side". However, I contend it is what a person does and not necessarily what they say that carries the most weight in life. She is a "sayer". I am a "doer". This has been the subject of an argument or two over the years. LIL


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

iwillsurvive said:


> I will maybe give you a different perspective on this. My husband cheated on my with his "first"- his high school girlfriend. He has always been enamored with the person she was, the person he first fell for. So when she came back into his life and said all the right things to him, he fell hard and fast and destroyed our marriage and family in the process.
> 
> She was definitely a "trade down" per say. She is skanky white trash. She has several kids from several men, ended her own marriage because her husband cheated, but then turned around and doesn't mind being the mistress to a married man! What kind of person does that?
> 
> ...


Thank you iwillsurvive. I have never been a Gloria Gaynor fan, but I really appreciated your post. It hit very close to home. I agree, your husband and myself are very similar in our attraction to "our first". We may be heading at it from different directions, but the end product is the same, that being unhealthy behavior.

For whatever reason I'm "set on her" because she's my first even though as you've aptly stated, "she's not that person anymore". I'm in love with a memory more than anything, but it was a very beautiful memory. I guess in a way it still is, but as you've stated the world moves on and people change. I guess I need to move on as well. LIL


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

First off, you need to cut her off financially. She needs to understand what the consequences of her actions are. She will have to learn a different lifestyle if you divorce her. She seems very hard hearted.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

IIFTD, the problem is the marriage is dead, but our household remains intact. It just isn't practical to "cut her off financially" because at this point she's basically functioning as my nanny. With my career, I can't watch my younger kids during the day, or prepare dinner for them etc. Most nights, I'm not even home until after 7:00pm.

While she is a crappy wife, she is a decent enough mother, so for now out of necessity alone she stays. She recently has been non-committal about couples therapy and knowing whether or not she "wants to save our marriage". I cannot stand her friggin vasillations so I basically told her "F-it, if you can't decide, I'll decide for you. I want a divorce." 

I know she feels guilty as hell, but she won't apologize because she's convinced that if she comes completely clean she'll be left "out in the cold." The reality is because she's showing no remorse, I can't forgive her, and it's forcing me to divorce. For the record, I do not suspect she is currently engaged in any sort of adulterous activity and she has tried to be transparent as of late. 

Late howerver is the operative word, as in it's too late, but because of the kids I'll file after Christmas, and put our house on the market in the spring. Come early summer when it sells, I'll finalize the divorce and go from there. Cheaters suck. I'm going to TKD practice and breaking something. LIL


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## manchild (Nov 9, 2009)

lastinline said:


> Morally, I am incapable of adultery, so going outside my marriage is not an option. She knows this, and for some perverted reason, perceives this decency as weakness.


In my estimation people like you describe your wife to be don't percieve your decency as weakness, quite the opposite, they fully understand and appreciate your grace and self discipline, their problem is that they know they don't have and will never have what you have and it bothers the heck out of them so in order to deal with it they have to marginalize the positives they see in others in order to make themselves feel better about their shortcomings

Ask yourself this, if she is doing this to you then she is probably doing this to others in her world view....does (now or in the past) she trash talk other people in your life in your social circle? 



lastinline said:


> I feel I am being pressed to file for divorce, so she can declare to her legions of friends that it was I, her arrogant and workaholic husband, that left the union. I personally could care less what her friends think. My concerns are about how my family and my God view me, nothing more.


classic passive aggressive behavior......engaging in an affair to force the situation to a crisis where divorce is the only outcome ... call her out on this.... tell her she is acting in a passive aggressive manner..... people who engage in this type of behavior dont' like it when you skip a step and speak to the behavior (the passive aggressiveness) and its tactics as opposed to the transgression itself (the affair)

her legions of friends are nothing to you, dismiss this though it seems you have already....good job




lastinline said:


> What really pisses me off, is I have seen these men. Physically and mentally they aren't impressive. I would have hoped she would at least have tried to "trade up". Instead she went slumming. Is it normal for women to "cheat down"? I know it's attention she was seeking, but WTF woman have some dignity.


of course the guys are scum bags....what does this tell you about her own self image.....she knows you are far far superior to her......she's spiraling down.....don't let her take you or your self image with her



lastinline said:


> I am not rationalizing, I am just lost at what I missed. She even sarcastically calls me "perfect" when we fight. I guess this is supposed to get at "my perception of me", but I am the first to admit that I'm flawed. The big difference between us is that when I perceive a flaw, I strive to fix it, she just embraces her imperfections.


dude get over it....we all want what we cannot have.... she is the perfect example .... in your mind you want control of the situation, you have set her up in a nice home with nice things with abundant means.... in your mind she should be satisfied... you feel you have done the things to deserve a modicum of control as you have done your part ....... the part you don't get is that you cannot control someone who is as narcissistic as she appears to be.... it is a neuroisis a mental illness which you cannot control....... sad to say you need to move on


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

manchild, I appreciate your input. For the life of me I never did grasp the whole passive aggressive thing. Individually, they make sense, coupled they confuse me. 

My personal diagnosis for her would be depression. She fits the bill, lock stock and barrel. I would honestly say I am more narcissistic than she is. She realizes she is a slightly above average looking woman, and focuses more of her energy on others than herself. My problem with her is she focuses none of that energy on me, and little of that energy on improving herself.

I just don't feel like I am myself anymore. We had Mormons come to our door today while I was working, and in years past I liked nothing more than a good theological debate. My son informed me and basically I quipped that unless they wanted to shampoo carpets that I had no use for them. My eldest son was surprised, and probably disappointed to say the least. He's sort of use to pulling up a chair either outside by the fountain, or in my office and listening to apologetics. 

Not today, I have no arguments to give. The only scripture that comes to mind for me now is: *Better to live on the roof than share the house with a nagging wife. (GNB: Prov 21.9)* Forgive me. I have never felt farther away from my God in my entire life. LIL


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## Lostandconfused (Jul 6, 2009)

LIL,

I'm tremendously sorry that it's come to this in your marriage. I've read many of your threads over time and I've wondered often how things were going.

Obviously, no one has the answers for you; however, I would like to throw a few thoughts out and please, do NOT take anything I say as criticism because it is NOT. I have a very healthy respect for you as a person and as a professional. I also sense a very sensitive person inside you that just can't quite get past the logical and rational person you are. That "sensitive" guy is who she needs right now ... not the perfectionist, judge and jury who CAN live up to every self-proclaimed PERFECT action.

YOU, sir, are VERY intimidating. I say that with the utmost respect. I rarely get intimidated by someone because I rarely meet someone with such distinct convictions as you have. What I mean by this is that you don't understand a person saying something and not acting on it. You believe that if you say it, to mean it, you must act on it. This just isn't so. Many people can feel certain ways and yet act opposite to those beliefs or feelings. You aren't one of them, so you can't comprehend it. I, personally, struggle with understanding this type of behavior too so I can see this attribute in you.

You say your wife calls you "perfect" in a derogatory way. Well, LIL, she's tired of living with "perfect". No-one wants to live with "perfect". They want a human being with faults that actually fails sometimes and NEEDS the other person. You say, "but I have faults". Yes, you do; however, you rarely let them show and when they do, you are "perfect" enough to determine you WILL change it. That's intimidating, tiring, AND just plain annoying. No offense meant, seriously. I'm just giving you my honest opinion. Living "UP" to someone all the time would get to the best of us. She's been living "UP" to you for years, decades actually and she's plumb worn out with the trying.

IMO, what have you done wrong? Well, you've been just too perfect, too expecting of her, and just too, too! Does that make sense? She doesn't want to lose you BUT she can't admit being less than perfect either because there IS NO ROOM for less than perfect in "your" life.

I'm not saying you should change and become a slob or lazy or any other thing that goes against the grain. What I am saying is lower your expectations for yourself AND her to allow her to be equal to you. No-one is EQUAL to you. [shrug]

It's my honest opinion that she doesn't even realize WHY she's so worn out. She just knows that she CAN'T be enough for you and she wants to so badly. So, she turned to where she's WAY more than enough.

Please don't give up on your "dream woman". She's still there. She's just lost sight of herself in the woman she thinks YOU want her to be. LOVE her! LOVE her with all your dedication to perfection you have in you. LOVE her in spite of her weaknesses and failures. Don't pick apart her thoughts, her actions, her past. Just start from this moment forward appreciating who she was and who she can be again.

That's just my $0.02. for the little it's worth.

I truly admire you for your convictions about vows, for your dedication to being the best you can be. I think YOU are the "perfect" person to make this work IF you put your whole heart into it and take out the mind work.

Praying and wishing you all the best,
Lost


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## stillINshock (Apr 9, 2009)

Sex is such a head game for women. Its much more of a physical thing for men. (I'm not bashing!) A woman really has to be in the 'right frame of mind.' She most likely won't give it as a reward, or apology. Only if true affection can be received - a very difficult thing to give after being betrayed. I'm sorry. Time, effort, honest. Not fair for YOU to be carrying this weight.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Lostandconfused said:


> LIL,
> 
> 
> You say your wife calls you "perfect" in a derogatory way. Well, LIL, she's tired of living with "perfect". No-one wants to live with "perfect". They want a human being with faults that actually fails sometimes and NEEDS the other person. You say, "but I have faults". Yes, you do; however, you rarely let them show and when they do, you are "perfect" enough to determine you WILL change it. That's intimidating, tiring, AND just plain annoying. No offense meant, seriously. I'm just giving you my honest opinion. Living "UP" to someone all the time would get to the best of us. She's been living "UP" to you for years, decades actually and she's plumb worn out with the trying.
> ...


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## Lostandconfused (Jul 6, 2009)

lastinline said:


> I am so hurt and torn at this point, I am not even sure I want her back. I am slow to anger, but once you have crossed me sufficiently, you have an enemy for life. In one of my last posts, I commented I now understand the meaning of the word estranged. I do.
> 
> I would need an admission and an apology from her, and I suspect she is proud enough to deny me both. So sad. LIL


I can see you did hear exactly what I was trying to say. You are, as expected, extremely quick at grasping concepts. Actually, you are extremely quick at everything .. it all comes so easily to you. YOU are who we all think we want to be. Sadly, in reality, you know we don't really want to be you. To be you, is to be lonely and misunderstood. Always the one people admire but rarely the one they can talk to about mistakes.

Here's my take on your last post. The saddest thing is LIL, she's not too proud, she's too afraid. Demanding she pay her "pound of flesh" to gain access to you again is too much to ask. She doesn't have it left. You've taken what she had and diminished it so much, there's just not enough. 

You can continue to be angry and yes, I can understand saying it takes a lot to anger me but once you have ... Lord help you. (I think we are much alike) But in the end, YOU will lose as much as she and possibly more. 

You see, you've raised children in this environment and they are quick learners from our actions and attitudes, much more so than our words. There WILL come a time when one of your children will either feel the same way she does about you OR worse, they will have the same relationship with their spouse. Either way, your heart will break in ways that you cannot comprehend right now. This cheating in your marriage and breakdown of the relationship between you and your wife is NOT the worst heartbreak in the world.

I will reiterate. LOVE the woman as she is, in spite of what she has become and what she has done. Unconditional LOVE for the woman you know she was and can become again is all that will save your marriage and teach your children that PERFECT isn't a goal any of us truly want. Compassionate, forgiving, tender, and kind ... now those are goals that I'm working on right now.

Believe me, PERFECT is easier to do but the paybacks are damaged relationships. No relationship you go into will be different until you can change this need for perfection. Again, not condemning or criticizing. I feel this pain personally.

I will say it again ... YOU are the perfect person to make this marriage work again. YOU learn quicker than most. YOU have a strength of will that is beyond strong. YOU can do literaly anything you set your mind to. She is worth it! I know I don't personally know her, BUT the fact that you loved her once is enough to know she's an amazing woman. She's damaged right now and needs help to mend.

The only thing you have to fight that is of any true obstacle is your own pride.

Again, just my $0.02.

Wishing you the best,
Praying,
Lost


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Wow lostandconfused, I don't think you could have set the bar much higher with your last post than what you did. Where to begin...I guess at the beginning.


*it all comes so easily to you.*


No it doesn't. My trick is I outwork people. It's a little something I learned a long time ago on a wrestling mat, and it seems to serve me well in most aspects of my life. The illusion is to an outsider it always looks easy, because they are viewing end-product. Have you ever watched a concert pianist play? Looks effortless right? What you can't see is every hour and afternoon it took to make it that way. What you can't appreciate unless you've been there is every missed trip to the beach, and every lesson that's been slogged through to master that level of skill. It looks easy to others because they didn't do the work. 


*YOU are who we all think we want to be. *


Intersting, I've never really thought about this. I am far more respected than my wife, but she is more liked. Hell, most days LAC, I don't even want to be me. I became who I thought I should be, not who I really am. I never wanted any of this. I did it because I could, and because I thought it honored my wife. 

You are right LAC. I am lonely. My wife used to be my best friend, and I really relied on her for my emotional needs. Now she's not there, and it hurts more than I can describe. It's just not worth it. I could walk away from everything today, and be a world happier for having done so, but I'm trapped by leases, committments, contracts, and other's expectations...

My clinic shares a building with a mortgage company. I like the owners, and because I train in my facility on the weekends, sometimes I'll cross paths with my neighbors. Financially, they are doing as well as I am without the stress. Medicine is rewarding, but there are hard costs personally and otherwise to be in this profession. I honestly would not do it again. 


*Demanding she pay her "pound of flesh" to gain access to you again is too much to ask. She doesn't have it left. You've taken what she had and diminished it so much, there's just not enough.*

God, I hope your wrong on this one, because it's a non-negotiable for me. "I'm sorry, but you need a ticket if you want to go to the fair." I need something from her that says "I f**ked up, I'm sorry. I hurt you, and I won't do it again." I am what I am, and it is what it is. I know that doesn't mean anything, but I'm willing to die on this hill.


*You see, you've raised children in this environment and they are quick learners from our actions and attitudes, much more so than our words.*

Yes, I do see. I have a sophmore with a December birthday who is basically a year younger than everyone in his class. He is a talented musician who studies with professors from our local university and already plays 4 instruments well. I cannot remember the last time he received a "B" in anything. He has my same disease. 

He wants to be a neurosurgeon of all things. He is not even out of high school and I can already tell he'll exceed anything that I've done in my life. I'm his benchmark. I explain my thoughts on benchmarks some other day, but basically it's a target that you focus your energies on until you've exceeded whatever mark you've established. 

It's a form of goal setting, but it requires adopting certain attributes from the individual you've marked tht made them successful, and analyzing their weaknesses and leaving them out of the Xerox. In essence, you then "have" what they "have", albeit without the liabilities.

This is the one that'll break my heart. My thought is when he finally climbs Everest he'll find that the views pretty enough, but the place is pretty much littered with discarded O2 bottles and trash. It won't be what he expected, and where do you go to from there? That's my current dilemma, and soon enough it'll be his.


*I will reiterate. LOVE the woman as she is, in spite of what she has become and what she has done. Unconditional LOVE for the woman you know she was and can become again is all that will save your marriage and teach your children that PERFECT isn't a goal any of us truly want. Compassionate, forgiving, tender, and kind ... now those are goals that I'm working on right now.*


I can't do any of this. To me and my flawed concept of love, there are conditions. I wish I could tell you that I am capable of some incredible form of Agape love, but I am not. I have standards, parameters, conditions, guidelines, and friggin more. 85% of me is off the charts exceptional, the problem is I had to mutate and warp the other 15% to get there, leaving me damaged.

I am not capable of unconditional love. I don't even believe it exists, or at least I have never seen or experienced it. Everything has strings. The devil is in the details, and always read the 4-point font. I always felt that my wife would love me more the "better" i became. This just hasn't been the case. In fact the opposite has been true.


*Believe me, PERFECT is easier to do but the paybacks are damaged relationships. No relationship you go into will be different until you can change this need for perfection. *


Perfect is a mutha-f**ker. It isn't easy, and I don't strive for it. I'm all about the 96%. To much energy is expended in going after that last ellusive 4%. My son that I described above, he's the perfectionist. I've already warned him, but he's young with the heart of a lion. I'll talk to "Leo" in another 15 years, and see where he's at. I hope he fairs better than I have.

As for other relationships, I honestly can't fathom being with anyone else other than my wife. My wife is convinced I'll hook up with some young hunny bunch, but that's not my style. I think that's her insecurity talking. For now, I'm not content to be alone, but I don't know how to be anything else. 


*I will say it again ... YOU are the perfect person to make this marriage work again. YOU learn quicker than most. YOU have a strength of will that is beyond strong. YOU can do literaly anything you set your mind to. *

I once thought like you think. I once thought like my son thinks, but I am limited. I am tired. I am not a super hero. I am just a man who lost track of what's truly important in life. I'm just going through the motions now. I feel like I'm treading water, and my relationship with my wife is pulling me down. I can try to hold onto it and drown, or I can remove it and perhaps survive. 

I know this isn't what you wanted to hear LAC, but then the truth seldom is. I appreciate your insight, and I thank you for your considerable help. You have a wonderful gift, and your friends are truly blessed to have you for counsel. LIL


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

lastinline said:


> God, I hope your wrong on this one, because it's a non-negotiable for me. "I'm sorry, but you need a ticket if you want to go to the fair." I need something from her that says "I f**ked up, I'm sorry. I hurt you, and I won't do it again." I am what I am, and it is what it is. I know that doesn't mean anything, but I'm willing to die on this hill.
> 
> LIL




LIL - I'm with you on that one.

My wife is being 100% totally honest with me....that allows the marriage to be rebuilt. But if she does not demonstratively show me that she is willing to work and sacrifice to make herself better, then we will be done.

Like you, I'm dying on this hill.

She went to extraordinary lengths to accomidate the other guy. ALL I WANT IS THE SAME THING!!! Is that too much? I know she can do it, because she did. Now I want it. I want what she gave the other guy.

Does that make me selfish? If so, fine. That's my "pound of flesh" that I'm taking. But she better give it to me or we're done.


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## Lostandconfused (Jul 6, 2009)

LIL and Sven,

I hear your point of view completely. In LIL's case, things are a tad different than in most. I'm sorry Sven, I don't know your situation as closely so I can't comment.

Lil, has been such a difficult person to live with. Now take that the way it's meant, he's wonderful so don't get me wrong. That's the biggest part of it. Too wonderful. She just can't live "UP" to him. The demanding (right now) that pound of flesh is more than she has. I'm not saying the admission and committment verbally and in actions won't come at some point. I'm saying that for right now, this woman has nothing left to give up. She's emotionally drained of almost all self respect. Asking for her to give one more ounce of that right now will be the deal breaker, imo. She has put on a tough exterior, an armor if you will to appear strong. She is not strong but she will fight to appear that way.

To end any cycle, one person has to step up and "do the right & noble" thing. IMO, Lil is that person in his marriage. I hear how tired he is. How hurt he is and I ache for him. I do. I just think that out of the two, HE is the one who still has more left so IF he can give this LOVE to her, it will replenish her reserve. You see, LOVE given away doesn't diminish, it increases.

My use of the word "perfect" in my last post does NOT reflect 100%. It reflects what LIL has done over the years.

Now let me give you a sample of what I mean by unconditional loving her. Don't demand that she beg for forgiveness now. Don't demand a full confession. Tell her, honey, I LOVE you enough to want our marriage to work regardless. This doesn't mean that you (she) have a "free" ticket. The time will come for your confessions, for your committment but right now I just want you to know, I love you. I will continue to love you and whatever it takes to make US work, let's do it together. Show your "need" for her. She hasn't seen that "need" for her in years. Then put aside the anger (yes this takes dogged determination which LIL has in abundance even though he doesn't feel like it right now) and have some good times together. This will be a slow and painstaking process.

Likely she won't believe him at first. He'll have to say it several, if not many, times. He'll have to show her by his actions of ending the sarcasm, by being kind and gentle with her feelings. YES, it requires putting her FIRST in the relationship "for now." 

I understand LIL that you are worn down too. That's why it's important to do it now and not wait for this situation to get worse and for your reserves to deplete any more. You've described your son's perfectionist tendencies. He's headed for heartbreak. He will be successful and likely, alone. He has to see what it means to put "perfection" aside (not 100%, the 96% you've been) for the greater LOVE. He needs to "see" it.

It's all up to you both to decide what you really want. Defend your "hill" until death if that's what you choose. It will be a lonely "hill". Or try to realize that it may not be worth defending at this time. Even the greatest military experts know when to retreat and where the fight will have the most effect.

Again, this is just my $0.02 for all that it's worth and believe me, it can be oh so very wrong. This is YOUR decision to make. 

Wishing and praying the very best for you both,
Lost

P.S. Lil, I believe you when you say right now you don't have it in you. But, you WILL get your second wind. You are a fighter, a doer, a never say die kind of guy. I hear it in your writing. It's there and it will come. I believe that firmly.

Now, having said all of that. She has a mind of her own and may have well decided that giving up is what she must do. That's her decision to make. BUT if you want your marriage, fight for it. You've given too much to throw it away now without the effort to save it.

P.S.S. LIL, I should have, and I'm sincerely sorry that I didn't, include that which ever choice you make is going to be the right one. I have no stake in this either way other than what I thought I heard from you is that as tired and as hurt as you are, you want your marriage to work and you love your wife so I'm offering my opinion based on that and nothing more. Now, that doesn't mean I heard you right. So, please do NOT feel like you owe me any explanation or defense or consideration over this. I will support you regardless of the decision you make because you, sir, deserve respect and you have mine.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

LIL for what it's worth...my thoughts on 'perfect' from another post:

When I was young my mom gave my older sister and I some flower seeds and told us to plant them in the garden. We made a line down the middle. My sister spent about 10 minutes quickly turning the dirt (big lumps everywhere) sprinkled seeds all over the place and squirt some water on it & went on with her day. 

I spent hours turning the dirt, breaking it down into tiny pieces, followed the instructions to a tee, planted neat little rows with several seeds in each hole, added some water and packed the dirt tight. I tended to it for weeks as they sprouted up pulling the extra sprouts so they would overcrowd one another.

Mid-summer, you could clearly see the line in the garden...my sister's side with colorful flowers everywhere and my side with 3 rows of flowers, evenly spaced. Night and day--hers blew mine away!

Sometimes what we view as perfect is so far off. I (and probably anyone who knew me as a child) would say I was a perfectionist, but I learned fast after my kids were born how imperfect it is to expect little kids to sit quietly, eat silently, keep their toys all neat and tidy...kids learn by being themselves and being kids and to push what I think is the right or wrong way to do something, to act will just make them fearful to find their own way and use their creativity.

I'm still pretty hard on myself, but very laid back with those around me because I love who they are and want them to feel happy and comfortable around me...there's nothing more perfect than that.


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## stillINshock (Apr 9, 2009)

LEGAL NOTICE:
Did you know that in some states having sex after finding out about an affair is equal in the court of law to forgiveness?

Oops, just felt the chill in the air. 
Not sure if its true. Heard it totally out of context somewhere - couldn't believe it. Ponder.


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## stillINshock (Apr 9, 2009)

Then again, if you start having sex again, you'll be less concerned about perfection - and perhaps a little happier.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Lostandconfused, thank you for your insightful comments on my situation. I would like to assure that your time and energy haven't been in vain, but I'm afraid the jury's still out on that one. Nevertheless, you've been tremendously valuable to me as I've tried to navigate through the mine field of my marriage.

I won't bore you with a point and counterpoint on your last post. It will suffice to say that your instincts serve you well, and that you are morally right on the course that I "ought" to take in regards to my marriage.

I am scheduled for couples counseling with her this week. This was initially one of my non-negotiable "hills". For obvious reasons she was reluctant to go LAC, as she felt I'd just use the counselor to "gang up" on her. I assured her there was plenty of "blame" to go around in our marriage, and this wouldn't be the case. 

She finally conceded, and now that the hour draws nigh I am seroiusly tempted to friggin bail on the appointment. I have met with this man before, and he is a good Christian gentleman. I like him and more importantly, I trust his judgement.

If I go, I know we can piece our relationship back together. The problem is now that I "have it"...do I still want it. I hate to say it, but part of me just wanted her to take me back and agree to work on our marriage so I could "reject her" like I felt she had rejected me.

If hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, us men at least come in a very close second. This LAC is my conundrum:

*Do I still love her...yes, but not in the same way I once did. 
Do I still trust her...no. 
Do I feel I could do better without her...yes.
Do I feel my children could...no.*
*Am I willing to sacrifice my needs for theirs...once I would have said yes without hesitation, now I'm sadly unsure.*

So here I sit with my feet upon the precipice...wondering what to do, knowing clearly what is right, but willfully pondering not doing it anyway. LIL


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

LIL,

I have only recently begun following your story. Cast of characters and scenery is very different, but the plot points are nearly identical.

I acknowledge that everybody's journey is very different. People will have viewpoints and input based upon their experience.

The overall arc of what I see in your case is similar to my own. An overwhelming shift in the marriage upon the introduction of children (to be expected, but no recovery, just a widening gulf). Resentment about work requirements (hours, travel) but absolutely no indication of a willingness to change lifestyle. Absence of intimacy despite attempts or requests to re-establish. Focus on the children to the exclusion of other responsibilities to maintain the home. Loss of self-identity (spouse). Growing resentment on both sides. Infidelity.

I recognize the anger on your part.

I recognize the baffling, and further infuriating behavior on her part. 

So while I think it is great that people continue to provide you with input and insight, that provides an array of perspectives and contexts; here is mine.

This is no longer about who needs to blink first.

This isn't about what steps you can take to make her feel better about herself and the marriage, or what she should be doing to demonstrate her commitment to the marriage. 

At this point in time, you and your spouse are at a complete and utter impasse. Your marriage is utterly broken, almost any attempt to address the issues, only exascerbates them.

Is your marriage salvageable? Maybe. But not now. Not in it's current state. We definitely got to a point where ANY effort to focus on the marriage, made things worse.

We chose separation and mediation. My logic when I was in angry mode, was that I refused to be the one to pay for her to hire an attorney whose goal was to screw me. She had no income to pay for her own lawyer.

So, consequently we have been separated for over 15 months. We have the paperwork to pull the plug - we live our lives as if we are divorced, but when we do make it official, it won't be out of anger, grief and pain. It will be a clear-headed acknowledgement that we simply no longer bring out the best in one another, nor is there an expectation that one can or desires to meet the others needs. 

The climate has changed over the last year. She has discovered that the boyfriend was another symptom, not a solution. I have discovered that I actually won't explode if I don't have sex. We both want better things for our lives - and one another's life.

So ... I can sum up those paragraphs of prelude this way; Live separately. Let the fog of war pass. Rediscover yourselves as individuals. Then let the individuals decide if they enhance their lives and the lives of their children by reconciling and preserving the marriage, or by letting it go and moving on. There is no need to rush if neither of you are invested elsewhere, nor is one actively trying to eviscerate the other. 

I can't tell you how this ends, because I don't know yet myself. I have another year's lease on my apartment. Went to my son's school concert as a family last night. Lots of smiles, hugs, and pride in our son and seeing how far he has come. After going back to the house, getting them ready for bed, and reading stories, I gave her a hug before I left and said; "You have wonderful children." She smiled, and said "Thank you. So do you."


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## bestblu1 (Oct 21, 2009)

For what it's worth. I too can not love my wife like I once did. But then again, the way I loved her before did not work or we would not have had these adultery problems.

What has helped me to love my wife anew is that I had to give up the picture in my mind of what we had before. I have chosen to think of the wife that I knew before as "dead and gone". That is the only way I can cope with what has happened. The woman I am now married to is a different woman and I am a different man.

Think of it this way: If your wife gets to the place of true repentance for what she has done, you have the opportunity to think of her as a different person. You can never have the marriage you once had...the good or the bad. If she is willing to admit her wrongs and you are willing to drop your pride and stop justifying your pursuit of success as something you had to do, you both have a chance to start over as two completely different people, just as if you were building your marriage with a new person.

I am not trying to be insensitive, I hope you can understand that. It's just that based on my experience I don't think your wife is capable of forgiving herself until she knows that you have truly forgiven her for what she has done. And by the way, your forgiveness is not just saying: "I forgive you". Forgiveness is demonstrated by the way you treat her. It is shown by the way you talk to her and the tone of your voice. It is shown to her by the lifestyle changes you make so that she can visibly see that she is important to you. As long as you justify your position she will not be able to get free from her guilt and from her defensive position.

For your own future happiness, you must forgive her. If you leave her you will never be happy. If you will forgive her completely, and she leaves you, at least you will have peace with yourself. Unforgiveness is like cancer of the soul. It will always hurt you more than the one you hold the unforgiveness against.

The only way I was able to forgive my wife was to come to grips with the fact that she is human and humans have sinful tendencies. We all need forgiveness more than once in our lifetime. If you are like most men, your wife's infidelity has diminished your feelings of self-value and manhood. In reality, even if she had not cheated on you, your only true sense of being valuable and loved comes from knowing you are valued and loved by God. 

If you can get to the point of gaining your sense of security from your relationship with God, you won't need her faithfulness or any other woman's to feel good about who you are. But if you can become secure in who you are as a child of God, it could take the pressure off of her and I believe you have a much better chance of seeing her ask you to forgive her and have her faithfulness to you restored.

And...there are no guarantees that she will. Of course isn't that what love is all about. Risking it all and making yourself vulnerable. But at least you will be able to live with yourself because you did the right thing as a Christian man.

This is not about doing the right thing for your kids or for your wife. This is about doing the right thing for you and your long term peace of mind.

I have completely forgiven my wife for 12 years of infidelity. I am rebuilding trust. If I can do it so can you. I am no stronger than you. But I could see early on that I would possibly turn into a bitter, angry, and cynical person if I did not deal with my feelings in a better way.

It was not easy for the first couple months after I found out. I seriously considered killing the other guy. I would find myself getting worked up into a rage sometimes that was so overpowering I would lose track of time. It was destroying me and I began to realize that I had too much to lose by continuing to feel sorry for myself by entertaining all of those angry thoughts.

I got through all of that by focusing on God's word and prayer. It really did help me. It is making all the difference.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Deejo said:


> LIL,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## iwillsurvive (Mar 4, 2009)

LIL- sorry to hijack your post, but I promise it is somewhat relevant. 

Best- you said that you have basically started over with a "new" wife. This is where things get dicey for me. I can't do that. Because if I did, I'm not sure I would want to stay married. My husband has changed, tried to be better, made changes to try to be a more kind person, involved person in our lives, etc. But if I was not currently married to him, and met him as a "new" person, I'm not so sure I would be so quick to fall for him. Life has taught me a few things and marriage has as well. I think if I were to ever leave this marriage, I would be MUCH more selective the second time around after having been hurt already once. So I think I have to see my husband exactly as he is- someone who loves me and loves our kids, but screwed up. And has the potential to screw up again. Unfortunately for us. we were at our best years ago, not now. So while our marriage is in a good place, it's not the greatest that it has ever been and sometimes remembering that we have the potential to be that great is what keeps me around. 

LIL- I'm with you on the checklist. Pretty much exactly. I think my life in a lot of ways could be better if I left. But I also think in the end my children would suffer- because they couldn't have both parents in their lives. And my husband truly does love our kids and tries his best to be a great dad. 

Plus, there is the very selfish side of me that thinks if we ever were to split up, I wouldn't know what type of people he would bring into their lives on "his" weekend. That may sound like I'm being petty & controlling, but based on who he chose to cheat with . . . I definitely would be worried about the people he was allowing to be an example in their lives. 

By staying, I at least know the environment my kids are exposed to and can help them understand right from wrong when they do see, hear or experience something that isn't ok with me. Does that even make sense? 

I think the part that bothers me the most about my own situation is that kids aside, if I knew this would happen before we got married, I don't think it would have been worth it. I don't think I would have married my husband knowing what I know now.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

lastinline said:


> Is it the norm for the spouse who had the affair to feel uncomfortable with any sort of physical contact with the spouse who did not? I am not speaking of sex necessarily, I am also talking about hugging or even holding hands.


In Pick Up Artist lingo this sort of thing is referred to as ***** Shields. She's probably fine with most other people, but you walk into the room and it's like a Klingon Bird of Prey decloaking to starboard... Red Alert and the Shields to maximum Mr. Chekov.

No hand holding through the shields. At this point she just has no more interest in you I think.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Dang Atholk, could I buy a vowel? I'm really not sure what the mystery asterisk word was. I'm usually good with puzzles, so I'm going to guess sperm shield...delightful. You are right though Sir; she is through with me, and I'm through with her. LIL


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Thanks for your reply bestblu. I hear what you have to say, and you're right I do need to forgive her, and to some extent I think I have. I honestly feel for the rest of it to happen, I just need to get my life back. 


*Think of it this way: If your wife gets to the place of true repentance for what she has done, you have the opportunity to think of her as a different person. You can never have the marriage you once had...the good or the bad. If she is willing to admit her wrongs and you are willing to drop your pride and stop justifying your pursuit of success as something you had to do, you both have a chance to start over as two completely different people, just as if you were building your marriage with a new person.*

The problem here bestblu is I do not like the "new woman" my wife has become. I wouldn't date her, and I certainly wouldn't marry her were I to meet her today for the first time. Most of what I loved about her is gone, and what is left just isn't enough. 

I don't like who I am around her. She doesn't stimulate me mentally. Physically, I am not as attracted to her. I will even leave the bedroom when she changes now. 

I told her awhile back that she doesn't deserve me, and I believe it. I hate coming home now. I just need for this to end.


*I am not trying to be insensitive, I hope you can understand that. It's just that based on my experience I don't think your wife is capable of forgiving herself until she knows that you have truly forgiven her for what she has done. And by the way, your forgiveness is not just saying: "I forgive you". Forgiveness is demonstrated by the way you treat her. It is shown by the way you talk to her and the tone of your voice. It is shown to her by the lifestyle changes you make so that she can visibly see that she is important to you. As long as you justify your position she will not be able to get free from her guilt and from her defensive position.*

If the above is true, she's in trouble. I can't do any of what you've wrote bestblu. I have no emotional connection to the woman because I have no physical connection with her. It's broken, and it's not going to get fixed anytime soon.

I hear what you're saying, I really do, but she isn't important to me, not anymore. So the tone that I use with her conveys that. My actions do the same. Does it hurt me? Perhaps, but far less than her adultery ever did.

*For your own future happiness, you must forgive her. If you leave her you will never be happy. If you will forgive her completely, and she leaves you, at least you will have peace with yourself. Unforgiveness is like cancer of the soul. It will always hurt you more than the one you hold the unforgiveness against.*

Here I disagree. I think her infidelity will have far more devastating consequences in her life than mine. First off, her standard of living will drop substantially. Secondly, she will resent the hell out of who she "replaces" me with because a part of her will always "miss" what she had.

She isn't going to "snag" someone making a 6 figure income as a 40 year old divorcee with 6 kids. She also isn't going to physically be able to trade up either, and I say this based on the fine specimen she chose to "cheat" with.

I am an 8 or 9 and my wife is perhaps a 6. I met her young while I was in the service. Had I waited, I could have did a lot better in the beauty department, but at the time that didn't matter as I honestly loved her.

I think I am perfectly capable of rebuilding my life and finding someone who shares my personal and work ethics. Someone who is adventurous. Someone who has a sex drive. Someone who can engage me mentally. Someone who would want to learn a new language and then travel to where it's spoken.

*The only way I was able to forgive my wife was to come to grips with the fact that she is human and humans have sinful tendencies. We all need forgiveness more than once in our lifetime. If you are like most men, your wife's infidelity has diminished your feelings of self-value and manhood. In reality, even if she had not cheated on you, your only true sense of being valuable and loved comes from knowing you are valued and loved by God. *

I am not like most men Sir. I am quite unusual. I don't feel my self-value has been diminished by her transgression. I feel betrayed and hurt. As for my manhood, I am almost a friggin testosterone caricature. The last part, I think I'll tone down a bit and try to soften myself some. 

I do agree though that I need to reestablish my relationship with God. My pastor has been clear that I am still welcome at my church despite my likely divorce. 

He too urged me to forgive my wife and had graciously arranged counseling that I declined. I consider myself to be a follower of Christ, but I cannot find it in my heart to forgive someone who shows no remorse. In turn, I understand God has forgiven me many debts and that I continue to transgress against my creator on a daily basis. Here lies the main source of my agitation.


*If you can get to the point of gaining your sense of security from your relationship with God, you won't need her faithfulness or any other woman's to feel good about who you are. But if you can become secure in who you are as a child of God, it could take the pressure off of her and I believe you have a much better chance of seeing her ask you to forgive her and have her faithfulness to you restored.*

I think you are right here as well Sir, and I will strive my best to do this. However, my intention is to get to the place where I can honestly forgive her, and then move on with my life separately without her.

I will put this as simply as I can bestblu. I feel as though my wife is sullied. I do not want to touch her anymore. I do not want to look upon her. I do not desire to be with her. I feel on edge in her presence. I no longer consider her my wife. 

*I have completely forgiven my wife for 12 years of infidelity. I am rebuilding trust. If I can do it so can you. I am no stronger than you. But I could see early on that I would possibly turn into a bitter, angry, and cynical person if I did not deal with my feelings in a better way.*

You are a better man than I. I have no intention of becoming either bitter or angry. I just want my life back.


*It was not easy for the first couple months after I found out. I seriously considered killing the other guy. I would find myself getting worked up into a rage sometimes that was so overpowering I would lose track of time. It was destroying me and I began to realize that I had too much to lose by continuing to feel sorry for myself by entertaining all of those angry thoughts.*

Here we differ as well Sir. I am very capable of hurting people with my hands and feet. I have spent the majority of my adult life training my body and to fight, and yet this reaction was never "triggered" inside me when I found out. I felt only sadness and a deep sense of betrayal.

I honestly believe a part of my wife wanted to see me "fight for her honor". However, she has no "honor", and thus I have no "fight" She made her choice. Now she must live with it, and so must I. LIL


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## bestblu1 (Oct 21, 2009)

In your very first post, you made the comment _*"Occasionally, I still see glimpses of that person, and they are more precious to me than diamonds."*_ Those words indicate a pretty strong "positive" emotion toward your wife.

I am just wondering, if you knew you could have that person back, would you attempt to restore?


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

bestblu1 said:


> I have completely forgiven my wife for 12 years of infidelity.


Um, wow 12 years is longer than most marriages last these days. So that all just stopped?

I hope I'm wrong and don't mean to put things in your head. But.... hmmmm.


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## bestblu1 (Oct 21, 2009)

Atholk,

If you want to read my story you can find it under "long term success in marriage" under the thread I started "How We Overcame Adultery". I'm sure you will find much more to be skeptical about there.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

*


bestblu1 said:



In your very first post, you made the comment "Occasionally, I still see glimpses of that person, and they are more precious to me than diamonds." Those words indicate a pretty strong "positive" emotion toward your wife.

I am just wondering, if you knew you could have that person back, would you attempt to restore?

Click to expand...

*
Absolutely BB, however I fear that person is dead. I'm mourning for now, but I'm feeling more and more my old self every day. In time, I know I will be able to move on and love again. LIL


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## bestblu1 (Oct 21, 2009)

LIL

Have you asked your wife what these other men gave her that caused her to give in to them? In other words, have you honestly tried to objectively determine what was missing in your relationship and what she was trying to get that you were not providing for her?


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

bestblu1 said:


> LIL
> 
> Have you asked your wife what these other men gave her that caused her to give in to them? In other words, have you honestly tried to objectively determine what was missing in your relationship and what she was trying to get that you were not providing for her?


bestblu1, simply time, attention, and empty flattery. For the record though bb1, it was "man" and not "men". Hell, it doesn't really make that much of a difference though, one bullet to the head is usually just as fatal as two or three.

The problem is though with your thinking bb1, is that she needed to come to me if she "wanted" something more in our marriage. I have no friggin time, she has an abundance of time. 

Same for attention sir. She has placed her focus for years on our children rather than me. That's where my monicker "lastinline" came from. Over time this has an effect of muting affection and building resentment, or at least it did for me.

As for empty words, that's just stupidity on her side. Couple poor judgement with depression on her part from the loss of several close family members in an unusually short period of time. Now add in no constructive belief in God to the mix, a distant husband, and a lot of kids with all that that entails. Hell, this bridge was bound to "fail".

In my little world, there are no hallpasses for adultery...ever. I could just as easily "rationalize" my way into some hunney-bunnies panties, but it still doesn't make it right. Something for you to go and think on bb1. LIL


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## bestblu1 (Oct 21, 2009)

I don't think your wife is any different from other women in general when it comes to the fact that "she did not come to you if she wanted more in your marriage". Something about a woman's make up and her thought process that expects her husband to know what she needs without her having to say it. I'm not saying it's right for a woman to think that way, I'm just saying that's the way they think.

A guy has to probe and and question and learn to become more sensitive to what makes his wife feel appreciated and loved. In your case it seems that you would probably view this with a cynical attitude...but I understand. My wife was unfaithful for 12 years, if anyone had a reason to kick his wife to the curb it was me.

I guess all I am trying to say is that I believe your marriage can be fixed if you are willing to forget about your "rights" and pour yourself into it. If you don't think it's worth it, that's your choice and scripturally speaking you have that right. But I think it would be a shame to not try to restore things.

If you have not already heard of or read the book, "The Love Dare", you may want to pick it up at the book store and at least check it out. It helped me tremendously.

The other thing I wanted to say is that I believe it would have been impossible for me to take my wife back if I had not began saturating myself with the scriptures. I know myself well enough to know that I don't have the internal strength to forgive and rebuild on my own...and I, like you, would consider myself stronger than most other men emotionally.


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## Lostandconfused (Jul 6, 2009)

lastinline said:


> The problem is though with your thinking bb1, is that she needed to come to me if she "wanted" something more in our marriage. I have no friggin time, she has an abundance of time.
> 
> Same for attention sir. She has placed her focus for years on our children rather than me. That's where my monicker "lastinline" came from. Over time this has an effect of muting affection and building resentment, or at least it did for me.
> 
> In my little world, there are no hallpasses for adultery...ever. I could just as easily "rationalize" my way into some hunney-bunnies panties, but it still doesn't make it right. Something for you to go and think on bb1. LIL


LIL,

Once again, let me say that NOTHING I'm going to say or ask is a criticism of you. YOU have been "above and beyond" when it comes to dedication, committment, and faithfullness. I've been reading the posts back and forth for a few days again and I have to say that most of what you are now saying is exactly "the reason" you are where you are in your marriage today.

You say above "she needed to come to me". Please ask yourself "IF I lived with someone that always was better at everything than I, belittled me for my meager accomplishments, and used sarcasm as a weapon, would I go to them to say I needed more?" I'm afraid that I wouldn't have it in me to do so and I'm not sure that you would either. Though, I honestly can't imagine you being in that situation. You're always the one that is the "better" person. Who can live up to you? I know I couldn't and your wife gave it one heck of a try ... for decades. She's human and yet, you still really can't allow her that error.

When you say she put the children ahead of you, I have to think well why not? THAT sir was the "job" she had. She did it BEST and in your own words she's a wonderful mother. That was the ONE thing she didn't have to compete with you in. She could excel and she poured everything she had into it hoping that would be enough for you. It wasn't and it isn't enough for you.

In your "perfect" world there are no hall passes for adultery and yes, I'm sure you could find your way into any number of panties if you wanted. But in reality, you were very content (yes you were) at being the "better" person and that was part of the deal for being "better" in your eyes. Having the integrity to maintain faithfullness.

BBlu is giving you a lot of good advice. He has learned that LOVE is the greatest attribute and gift you can have and give. It's not based on HIS strength, it's based on putting into action the belief that forgiveness is Godliness.

I hope that you can look at what I've written and see that I believe in you. I believe you can find a way to get past the need for "perfect (as defined by you, not 100%)" and free yourself from those chains.

I agree that it is your decision to make and I'm not adverse to your decision. I'm adverse to your reason for it as I think it is limiting to you. I hope that makes some semblance of sense. 

Again, I support your decision, whichever it is. I only hope you will see your culpability in the downfall of your marriage and relationship over the years so that you will go forward stronger and better able to maintain a healthy relationship in the future regardless of who it is with.

Just my $0.02.

Praying and wishing you the very best,
Lost


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Lostandconfused, I looked at your personal information, and well... there's none. I realize you're not my wife, but you sound exactly like she does.

you wrote lac:

*You say above "she needed to come to me". Please ask yourself "IF I lived with someone that always was better at everything than I, belittled me for my meager accomplishments, and used sarcasm as a weapon, would I go to them to say I needed more?" I'm afraid that I wouldn't have it in me to do so and I'm not sure that you would either. Though, I honestly can't imagine you being in that situation. You're always the one that is the "better" person. Who can live up to you? I know I couldn't and your wife gave it one heck of a try ... for decades. She's human and yet, you still really can't allow her that error.*

I have heard everything in the above paragraph numerous times from her lips. To hear it again from yours adds validity to her feelings if not her arguments. For the record though, she always beats me at Yahtzee. That game sucks.

I know she's in a "bad place" right now, and I know she is begging to be forgiven. She feels "pushed" and "tired", and "overwhelmed". I should understand that for whatever reason she is the "weaker vessel", and accept her lovingly for her beauty and flaws alike. The problem is though I'm just not that man, at least not yet.

you wrote lac:

*When you say she put the children ahead of you, I have to think well why not? THAT sir was the "job" she had. She did it BEST and in your own words she's a wonderful mother. That was the ONE thing she didn't have to compete with you in. She could excel and she poured everything she had into it hoping that would be enough for you. It wasn't and it isn't enough for you.*

Here again you sound like her Lac. The problem I have with this line of thought, is that I am an excellent father as well. However, my duty to her is that of a husband, and her duty to me is that of a wife. So while this is truly an admirable trait, it does little to sustain the joy and vitality of our marriage. It's the silver medal of marriage, and not the gold one I need.

I realize bb1 has given me tremendous advice. The problem is not that he's wrong, it's that what he is advocating for is so friggin tremendously difficult. 

Does that mean it can't be done? No. We have something painted on top of one of the walls at the school where I train that says: "Today not possible...Tomorrow possible". 

I used to think this was just a hokey expression, but their is a subtle truth that underlies that statement. I can only hope at some point it manages to surface and prove itself applicable here. LIL


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## bestblu1 (Oct 21, 2009)

lastinline said:


> Lostandconfused,
> I realize bb1 has given me tremendous advice. The problem is not that he's wrong, it's that what he is advocating for is so friggin tremendously difficult.
> 
> Does that mean it can't be done? No. We have something painted on top of one of the walls at the school where I train that says: "Today not possible...Tomorrow possible".
> ...


I am sensing that deep down you really want to make it work with your wife (am I wrong?). You say: " it is so friggin tremendously difficult...and...I can only hope it surfaces and proves itself applicable here".

Well...it will surface if you want it to. It's up to you, not some random emotional experience. Make the decision to see it as being possible for you and then step out in faith. Lay it all on the line. At this point, what do you have to lose?


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

BB1 I'm afraid my tanks are empty. At this point I just want out. Everything is completely "F"'d up, and while it could be fixed; there is absolutely no way I can repair it all alone. 

I have repeatedly made my needs known to my wife and cried out to her for help, but she says she "doesn't do that anymore." I'm just so exhausted emotionally. 

I take solace in training, and physically it briefly gives me the stamina to carry on, but my friggin coffee consumption is through the roof. I'm burnt out.

If I lost my house tomorrow I wouldn't care. My clinics mean nothing. I realize that most of my life has been spent pursuing a lie. The more I made, the more I spent. There is no satisfaction to be found in material goods.

As for faith, I have very little remaining in me. God, if you ever wanted to do something powerful in my life, now would be the perfect time. LIL


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## bestblu1 (Oct 21, 2009)

LIL,

I hurt for you. Starting today, I will pray for you daily. I will pray that God will intervene in a way that brings you emotional relief and peace. He will do it. I don't know the avenue that He will reveal His grace to you but I know He will do it. Don't worry about whether or not you have the faith for it. At times like this the faith of others who are not emotionally involved is sufficient until you get your strength back.

God really does care and He understands your pain. My wife and I will pray for you tomorrow morning during our prayer time as well. I promise we will pray and I believe in the power of it to get you through this difficult time in your life. Whatever happens between you and your wife, you can be happy again.
John 16:33

Bestblu1


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## Lostandconfused (Jul 6, 2009)

lastinline said:


> BB1If I lost my house tomorrow I wouldn't care. My clinics mean nothing. I realize that most of my life has been spent pursuing a lie. The more I made, the more I spent. There is no satisfaction to be found in material goods.
> 
> As for faith, I have very little remaining in me. God, if you ever wanted to do something powerful in my life, now would be the perfect time. LIL


LIL,

I'm sorry for all of the pain you are in. I truly am. I wish there was something, anything that I could do to make it better. I cannot. 

However, I can tell you that God has done something VERY powerful in your life. At this very moment you are aware, like you have probably never been before, that YOU are not in control of your own life in the ways that matter. That all that YOU have striven for was worthless. You can rest assured that God is in control and He has everything you need. He will not force it on you but He is faithful and will not withhold His grace and mercy from you if you ask Him and believe.

My mother always told me that when I felt least like praying is when I needed to pray the most. She also said whatever you are lacking, whether it is belief, forgiveness, willingness, whatever it is, then you can tell Him truthfully that you have none in your heart and ask Him to replenish it. He will provide. He will.

I will pray along with BB1 and his wife for you. Not that God will answer in any specific way but that His will for your life will manifest itself inside you. That you will find the purpose for your very being. He will bring you peace if you let Him. He will bring you strength as well.

Just my $0.02.
Praying,
Lost


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