# Let's talk about lawyers



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

We've been hoping to avoid lawyers in divorce, work out details by ourselves. I am not sure if this is advisable to me. Married 23 years, two kids 12 and 15, business together. So, it is rather complicated. In addition, he is already dating someone with good financial knowledge, and I am by myself in all this. We are trying to discuss financial details by ourselves. but I feel, that with his bully personality, I will give up more than I should. I really think I need to get someone on my side. Not to fight, or argue, but to make sure things are done correctly. I was suggesting mediation, but now I am not sure if this would work. 

He will be the bigger earner, and this if fine with me. The problem for me is that if we want to keep children in the same school system, I simply can not afford it. This area has just grown like crazy, and there are no houses for "normal" people. So I need to make sure I can afford this.

Does involving lawyers always mean huge money? Can you decide together on the terms, and simply have lawyers there to overlook it and make sure things are fair and legal, and just do neccessary paperwork? 

How much did you spend on lawyers?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

You're going to need a lawyer. Now if you want to commit all the agreements to writing but not sign them and then just hire an attorney to go over it and see if it looks legit and legal and fair, that wouldn't cost you much. That would be a 1 time flat rate but you'd have to be damn sure that what you were signing at the time of signing was what he went over.

Your main problem is going to be how do you even know how much money your ex may have stashed away hidden and that is something that I court order and an attorney can look into. and at some point if there's child custody involve you're going to need to go before a judge and get all that set up legally or you will just be asking for headaches unless your kids are nearly grown or something.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Please get an attorney! Make appointments for consults with two or three different attorneys before you hire one. You need someone looking out for you and your childrens' interests.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Are you going through mediation presently? Some firms will have available a Financial advocate who can assess the value of everything and also assess what the cost will be to support the children for the next couple years.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Family law attorney is who you look for.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

A few books you might checkout:

1) Divorce After 50
2) Divorce and Money
3) ...about collaborative and mediated divorce

All published by Nolo. Probably all available on Kindle.

I’ve read parts of the first two I listed, and they seemed very useful.









Divorce Books - Nolo


Default Description




store.nolo.com





No matter what, I’d make sure you are tapped into an expert’s opinion before formally agreeing to anything and signing. You owe it to your future self. You are, and she is, worth it.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Mediation works great for a lot of people but based on what you've said, it wouldn't be a smart choice for you IMO. Your STBX doesn't seem like he will be cooperative, and on top of that, you will have custody, child support, alimony, and the business and other assets to split. 

I would suggest you have free consultations with at least 3 lawyers. They will most likely give you three very different prices, at least that's how it was in my experience. Then consult with mediators and see what their prices are. When I did mediation it was like $600 for one session... That mediator "specialized" in high stakes divorces which, of course, costs more. 

You may find that the lawyer costs (if you settle outside of court) and mediator costs aren't very far apart. In that case, go with the lawyer. 

Either way, the costs vary greatly. I know one person who just got divorced, with lawyers, for $3,800 because it didn't go to trial. A cousin of mine spent over $200,000 on his divorce because it was a high-stakes divorce that took 6 years to finish and his ex-wife fought over everything down to the dog **** in the backyard. 

It all depends on lawyer/mediator rates, the retainer fee, filing fees, what state you are in, if the divorce is contested or uncontested, if you are going no-fault or at-fault, how many issues there are, how much fighting there is, how long it takes, and most importantly, if you have to go to trial. That is the expensive part. It will be a lot cheaper if you can settle with lawyers outside of court. 

Would your STBXH be able to stay in the school district? Generally, all you need is one parent's address to be in that district.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@WandaJ 

My exH (my first marriage) was abusive and cheated on me throughout our marriage, so he was a bully too. We had a business together, owned 2 homes, and he earned $7K/mo to my $2K/mo (at that time). So like you, I was concerned about financial fairness. Let me tell you what I did. 

We did not use lawyers during the process of negotiating things. We did use a mediator, and that helped in that he told us what the calculation was for child support and made exH realize his amount was unrealistic (he offered $100/mo/child and the calculation, just plugging in our real numbers, was $800/mo/child). I also decided, purposefully, that I had two "hills I would die on"--one was child support (because he helped to make the kids, and it was reasonable for him to help pay for raising them), and other was our houses (he tried to move out sell them out from under me). I decided I was able bodied and would just earn my own way in life, and yes I could have gone for alimony but decided that breaking free from him was worth more to me in "peace of mind" than continuing the fight and staying "tied to him" for any amount of time. 

In the end, we had joint legal custody with the kids having "home" at my place and "visiting" him--we only lived about 3 miles apart from one another. We sold both homes and split the equity 50/50 with the bank giving us each a check (he had wanted to get the equity and pay me my half, and I didn't trust him!). I took my portion of the equity and got a little townhouse that the kids and I scouted around and found in the outskirts of "our neighborhood." We closed the business and I let him do with it as he pleased because that wasn't my hill to die on...plus, I got my own job working for the Feds and making enough money to keep us all well enough. And we agreed to $1000/mo total for child care, taken from his wages and direct deposited to me (again, he wanted to "write me a check" every month, and I didn't trust him). The end. 

Yes, I probably ended up with less than 50/50 but I didn't care. All-in-all it took about 120 days from filing to signing, and in 120 days I was free from him--he couldn't threaten me anymore. Yes, I could have held out for me, but since he was a bully, I would have just had to endure bullying all that time, and for what? Nah, I decided I got the two things that were truly important to me: the kids got child support, and I was able to get our house from the equity. The rest, I just decided would be up to me and making my own way in my own future.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

WandaJ said:


> Does involving lawyers always mean huge money? Can you decide together on the terms, and simply have lawyers there to overlook it and make sure things are fair and legal, and just do neccessary paperwork?
> 
> How much did you spend on lawyers?


I don't remember what I spent on lawyers, but it was roughly in the $2k ballpark.

We mediated with a lawyer who used to do a lot of family law, i.e. divorces, but now is just a mediator. So she knows the law and the judges. She was knowledgeable about the nitty gritty details. I would suggest avoiding a mediator who doesn't have deep knowledge. For example, valuing the business could be tricky, or figuring out how future taxes might impact things (especially considering the business).

Our situation was fairly simple, with no minor children. Yours is complex enough that you need legal advice in addition to mediation. Mediation will save you a ton of $$. The lawyer to back it up ensures you know the true lay of the land so that you don't get steamrolled.

My lawyer provided info and advice, but did not file any divorce papers. I think you really want a lawyer to review any agreements before you sign them, especially when it comes to spousal support, custody, visitation, when/whether either of you can move out of the school district, etc. The basic split of assets is 50/50 usually, and you can figure that out without the lawyer. If you mess it up, you lose a little $$ but that is it. But the other stuff is really important, much more than raw $$, so you want a lawyer to advise you. 

Think about a few years down the road. How might what you agree to impact your ability to take a job, or move the kids to a better school, or be involved in important medical decisions for the kids? What happens if either of you remarries? How will that figure into it all? What if one of you dies? What if one of you objects to a medical decision? What if he stops wanting his time with the kids? I'm sure there are a hundred other scenarios. This is why you need a lawyer at least advising you and reviewing papers.

I used a lawyer to file a new deed on the house that she got, to be sure I was properly removed from the title. It cost something like $300. There are DIY forms for most every legal filing these days, but some things need to be done really right to be sure they don't come back to bite later on.

As soon as the judge signed our divorce, I signed all new estate docs like a will, trust, medical power of atty, etc. This cost me another $2k. Also changed all the beneficiaries of 401k, life insurance, etc.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Lawyer up. It sounds too complicated not to.

I had to provide a 5k retainer. It goes quickly.

Mediation does nothing if one person refuses to budge on certain issues, and a mediator isn't looking out for anyone's best interest, just intent on trying to help you agree to things.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Thank you all for replying. Yes, it does sound that at least I should have someone to look it over for me.

I think we will come to agreement on most issues, and there is no way we will go to court. I also won't do evaluation of the business, I want to leave the business in a year or so, and make some demands as my pay off: keeping health insurance, car payments, etc. I know what that business can afford.

The mediator gave me price between $3K and 8K. Lawyer said his divorces are usually around $2K, unless both parties start fighting and dragging it. Seems like lawyer makes more sense here.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Wanda, you need a lawyer, and a good one. 

He sounds like he is very willing to screw you over. It just makes good sense for you to protect yourself.

Let me tell you this, you never, ever really know someone until you divorce someone. My ex did some stuff that would curl your hair... 

Get a lawyer. I spent 7500 overall, others with more assets spend a lot more. Worth every penny...


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

PieceOfSky said:


> A few books you might checkout:
> 
> 1) Divorce After 50
> 2) Divorce and Money
> ...


Thank you! I just downloaded "Divorce without court", it should have bunch of forms and worksheets.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Our mediator charged something like $250/hr. We did one long session, so it was about $1k total. The more you can hammer out before you go, the less it should cost. Gather all the documents and be organized. Figure out what you want, what you need, and what your bottom line is for each item. Have a few give-aways, things you will give up in exchange for something you really want, and use those as bargaining chips.

Mediation is not the place to blindside the other person. This isn't some high-drama courtroom. You present a summary sheet with all your top line numbers on it, and what you are asking for. Keep to yourself what your minimums are.

If you hit a snag and can't resolve it quickly, put it aside and move to the next item.

The mediator's estimate seems awfully high to me.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I offered to meet up with mediator. He didn't say anything, but set up lawyer consultation for himself. So I did that too, just one phone call, did not sign anything, just to get the basics, so we are on the same page. That was few days ago.
Yesterday we were trying to work the numbers, and I mentioned what the lawyer said. He went balistic that I went to see the lawyer "in secret"..... It wasn't secret, I told him, I did not start any process. But he was really surprised that I dare to consult the lawyer after he consulted one. That's how my whole marriage went, different standards for each of us.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He sounds like the type to fight you over finances. And, yes, you can spend a considerable amount of time and energy — and potentially a lot of money — trying to get divorced. We initially consulted with a lawyer together and he gave us a fair amount of guidance (that probably cost around $500 or so) but primarily we handled it all ourselves. That only works — and I can’t emphasize this enough — when you can work together. Neither of us got 100% of what we wanted but we were willing to compromise to move things along. That is the easiest way to go. If your husband can’t do that, you absolutely need to be legally protected and that isn’t likely to come cheap.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Openminded said:


> He sounds like the type to fight you over finances. And, yes, you can spend a considerable amount of time and energy — and potentially a lot of money — trying to get divorced. We initially consulted with a lawyer together and he gave us a fair amount of guidance (that probably cost around $500 or so) but primarily we handled it all ourselves. That only works — and I can’t emphasize this enough — when you can work together. Neither of us got 100% of what we wanted but we were willing to compromise to move things along. That is the easiest way to go. If your husband can’t do that, you absolutely need to be legally protected and that isn’t likely to come cheap.


we are giving it a go every few days. then we have time to think it over, and adjust, and start again from new starting point. We'll see how it is gonna go..
But since he already have a partner, it is two against one. I feel I need support here. I want out so badly, that I might sign something stupid just to move along.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Judging from www.reddit.com/r/divorce/ the cost of a lawyer ranges from a few thousand dollars to all of the money. You will probably have to prioritize and realize that it costs $250/hr or whatever to fight about stuff. Even if you do get a lawyer, you should be doing as much as you can yourself (drop off your own paperwork at the courthouse, google simple answers, make sure you have all the documentation they need / ask for before contacting them again, etc).

Some simple things that you can do to get prepared are things like:

Gather bank records.
Gather tax returns.
Get an estimate for house value (and mortgage balance).
Get a retirement account statement from each custodian.
list major assets (real estate, vehicles, retirement account(s), etc) - Add it all up, divide by 2, and that is a reasonable estimate of what your share should be of the marital assets.
The business is a bit of a curveball since it likely doesn't make sense to sell and split the proceeds and could be significant. Depending on how each of you is involved, the business could have significantly more value to one of you or the other.
Most states have a child support calculator that you don't need a lawyer to interpret for you but they presuppose that you know how much time each parent is going to have.
Honestly, two reasonable adults, even with your complications, shouldn't need more than a couple hours of a mediator's time but you've already said that he's trying to be a bully.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

WandaJ said:


> I offered to meet up with mediator. He didn't say anything, but set up lawyer consultation for himself. So I did that too, just one phone call, did not sign anything, just to get the basics, so we are on the same page. That was few days ago.
> Yesterday we were trying to work the numbers, and I mentioned what the lawyer said. He went balistic that I went to see the lawyer "in secret"..... It wasn't secret, I told him, I did not start any process. But he was really surprised that I dare to consult the lawyer after he consulted one. That's how my whole marriage went, different standards for each of us.


Even more reason to.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

I'm a family law attorney. I'm not going to offer legal advice because you'd have to reside in the state where I'm licensed to practice plus, if you did, we'd need to meet for at least an hour before I had enough information to give informed solid advice. I'm writing to say that you need legal advice. If your husband is willing to meet with a collaborative divorce attorney, then you could too. In that model, everyone agrees not to go to court. One could say that in that model each of you agrees to "de-fang" your attorneys and the attorneys agree to "de-fang" themselves. Litigation has many downsides. But it's like the hospital emergency room. No one in their right mind wants to be there unless it's necessary. However, it's truly necessary, thank God the court is there.

Litigated divorces tend to be damaging, particularly to children. But sometimes that sort of approach is needed to prevent great harm.

I often explain that people can divorce from a place of connection or they can surrender to fear and allow it to run wild. It's not possible to do both. The love and connection will push out the fear but the fear will push out the love and connection. Some folks can stay in a connected place on their own. Some can't on their own but may be able to do so with the help of a neutral mediator. For yet others, they both need their own attorney and the collaborative process is designed for that purpose.

Since your husband has already obtained legal advice, you absolutely should get some too. I hope he didn't meet with a litigator because people tend to allow their attorneys to steer them. An aggressive litigator will often open the door to contentiousness. Ask who he met with. If it was a litigator, ask if he'd be willing to meet with a collaborative attorney. If so, you can meet with a litigator and a collaborative attorney and make a fully informed choice will all options on the table. If he's met with a collaborative attorney, then I'd suggest you find a collaborative attorney too.

If he's hiding assets, you won't be able to do the case collaboratively. Not unless he's willing to fully disclose. If he's not, you'll have no choice but to litigate. Litigation is necessary when someone is hiding assets or income, running up debt, harming children, committing acts of DV or otherwise acting in bad faith. Those are the sorts of things that make it impossible to steer clear of a judge. Unless both spouses can be adult enough to act in good faith, you wind up needing a bigger adult in the case. Unfortunately litigation has massive downsides. So it's all very tricky to weigh and balance everything and make a smart choice. A competent attorney who understands all the options should be able to help you make that determination. Best of luck.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Parallax857 said:


> I'm a family law attorney. I'm not going to offer legal advice because you'd have to reside in the state where I'm licensed to practice plus, if you did, we'd need to meet for at least an hour before I had enough information to give informed solid advice. I'm writing to say that you need legal advice. If your husband is willing to meet with a collaborative divorce attorney, then you could too. In that model, everyone agrees not to go to court. One could say that in that model each of you agrees to "de-fang" your attorneys and the attorneys agree to "de-fang" themselves. Litigation has many downsides. But it's like the hospital emergency room. No one in their right mind wants to be there unless it's necessary. However, it's truly necessary, thank God the court is there.
> 
> Litigated divorces tend to be damaging, particularly to children. But sometimes that sort of approach is needed to prevent great harm.
> 
> ...


Thank you @Parallax857 . This is helpful. I really hope we won’t go to court. I think he met with family lawyer. Based on few nasty comments from him I am now sure that. I need someone on my side to at least help me navigate and make sure I won’t sign anything stupid. 
going into consultation -do you have advise what to ask, besides the obvious? Small details that most of us are not aware of, but are important?


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> Thank you @Parallax857 . This is helpful. I really hope we won’t go to court. I think he met with family lawyer. Based on few nasty comments from him I am now sure that. I need someone on my side to at least help me navigate and make sure I won’t sign anything stupid.
> going into consultation -do you have advise what to ask, besides the obvious? Small details that most of us are not aware of, but are important?


A good lawyer will know the right questions to ask you. The main thing is figuring out if the case can be done amicably. That's hard to do one your own. Fear tends to take over. But with support, it may be possible. So I'd say consult first with an attorney who's trained in collaborative law. Unless you know for sure your husband has met with a litigator and is planning on taking the case to court. Or if he's doing one of the things I mentioned above or otherwise acting in truly bad faith.


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## WhiskeyVictor (Sep 13, 2016)

Please get yourself a lawyer. I believe that it's possible to work it out without one, but it's less than ideal in the situation that you're describing. You can still be amicable and not going into a situation completely screwing yourself. If he is upset that you obtain legal representation then that will show you how civil he intended to be.


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## Meshell74 (Aug 7, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> We've been hoping to avoid lawyers in divorce, work out details by ourselves. I am not sure if this is advisable to me. Married 23 years, two kids 12 and 15, business together. So, it is rather complicated. In addition, he is already dating someone with good financial knowledge, and I am by myself in all this. We are trying to discuss financial details by ourselves. but I feel, that with his bully personality, I will give up more than I should. I really think I need to get someone on my side. Not to fight, or argue, but to make sure things are done correctly. I was suggesting mediation, but now I am not sure if this would work.
> 
> He will be the bigger earner, and this if fine with me. The problem for me is that if we want to keep children in the same school system, I simply can not afford it. This area has just grown like crazy, and there are no houses for "normal" people. So I need to make sure I can afford this.
> 
> ...


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