# Making Marriage Work



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I found this video very interesting so I'm sharing it here.....


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Thanks for sharing! I think we all need to watch that every couple of months!


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I read his book when my marriage was failing and I realized that my exH displayed all of the “ 4 horsemen of the apocalypse” or whatever he calls them. And I just never felt loved in the marriage. 

The big take home for me was just how important connection is and how we have so many opportunities to make that connection. It’s sad that so many people are just too busy or distracted that they are missing the small stuff which is really the important stuff. 

Also I cannot agree more with the ratio of negative to positive actions. When you mess up you need 5 more positive things to put weight that negative one. It really brings home how important a positive friendly environment is. And also a engaged and not distracted one is.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

You know I respect the hell out of you, @EleGirl, but Gottman is demonstrably misleading, self-aggrandizing, and factually incorrect in many, many aspects. Please take his work as intellectual junk food that might make you feel a bit better, but is ultimately just empty calories.



> Critiques[edit]
> Gottman has been criticized for describing this work as accurately predicting divorce, when generally this work involves simply fitting statistical models to a data set, not making predictions about events in the future.
> A paper by Richard E. Heyman, "The hazard of predicting divorce without cross validation"[11] analyzes 15 divorce prediction models and questions their validity.
> When analyzing a given dataset, it is possible to overfit the model to the data, which will work extremely nice for this dataset, but will not work when tested on fresh data.
> ...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gottman

and
https://slate.com/human-interest/2010/03/a-dissection-of-john-gottman-s-love-lab.html


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Marduk said:


> You know I respect the hell out of you, @EleGirl, but Gottman is demonstrably misleading, self-aggrandizing, and factually incorrect in many, many aspects. Please take his work as intellectual junk food that might make you feel a bit better, but is ultimately just empty calories.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What did he specifically say that you disagree with?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Girl_power said:


> What did he specifically say that you disagree with?


That his method alway works, and that he can predict divorce. 

It doesn’t, and he can’t. And he is not intellectually honest about his methods. 

He is as dangerous as Ester Perel, just less sexy and with more junk science.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Marduk said:


> That his method alway works, and that he can predict divorce.
> 
> It doesn’t, and he can’t. And he is not intellectually honest about his methods.
> 
> He is as dangerous as Ester Perel, just less sexy and with more junk science.




So because of the false exaggerated claims he made, you can’t find anything useful and positive in his study? You just right him off because of it?

I like both him and Esther Pearl. They aren’t perfect. I don’t agree with everything they say. But I always learn how to be better when listening or reading both of them. And same goes for dan savage. I am against so many of his views, but I always learn something good.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Girl_power said:


> So because of the false exaggerated claims he made, you can’t find anything useful and positive in his study? You just right him off because of it?
> 
> I like both him and Esther Pearl. They aren’t perfect. I don’t agree with everything they say. But I always learn how to be better when listening or reading both of them. And same goes for dan savage. I am against so many of his views, but I always learn something good.


Garbage is garbage. Both Gottman and Perel have no integrity. Both have been called out as dangerous by those that do. 

Both have a few good points, as does Savage - but like all three they have blind spots in their ego, are dangerous, and are fundamentally just in it for power, fame, and money. 

I reflect on the day I gave up on Savage - when he told a poor woman that she was being abusive and controlling because she was leaving her boyfriend that was having an emotional affair. That’s victim blaming, that’s traumatic, and that’s coercing and shaming a victim into staying in an abusive situation. 

There are intellectually honest sources. I recommend finding and using them instead of going on a wild goose chase to sort out the good from the bad in someone’s work you already know to be bad. A broken clock is right twice a day, but it still means you throw it out and find a clock that works. 

It’s one thing to be incorrect and to grow, and still be a good source of info. It’s another to be deceitful, dangerous and lack integrity. 

Just my opinion. Like those people all you want. Just be warned.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Marduk said:


> Garbage is garbage. Both Gottman and Perel have no integrity. Both have been called out as dangerous by those that do.
> 
> Both have a few good points, as does Savage - but like all three they have blind spots in their ego, are dangerous, and are fundamentally just in it for power, fame, and money.
> 
> ...




People are not clocks. We are flawed and sinned. You seem to have a very unforgiving attitude for people who make mistakes. I also think I’m too forgiving so I know I’m biased. 

But the truth is, no one gives perfect advice all the time. Have you ever listened to focus on the family? Some of these religious advice groups are the worst, way worse than pearl and savage and gottlemen. 

You shouldn’t be so quick to shut out marriage advice because we can all learn and be better. We take what is useful and call it a win.

I listened to the whole YouTube video that was an hour long. If you focus on the fact that he says he can predict divorce than your missing the point of the whole video.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Marduk said:


> Girl_power said:
> 
> 
> > So because of the false exaggerated claims he made, you can’t find anything useful and positive in his study? You just right him off because of it?
> ...


Meh who cares. It's all a bunch of psuedo science, self help gurus trying to push snake oil to make a dime. They prey on a certain % of the population gullible enough to think they know something you don't. 

If someone finds some solace in these crackpots, good for them.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Meh who cares. It's all a bunch of psuedo science, self help gurus trying to push snake oil to make a dime. They prey on a certain % of the population gullible enough to think they know something you don't.
> 
> If someone finds some solace in these crackpots, good for them.




Have you ever read a marriage book or gone to counseling before?


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Girl_power said:


> So because of the false exaggerated claims he made, you can’t find anything useful and positive in his study? You just right him off because of it?


Not @Marduk, but yes. His claims and methods have been seriously called into question and discredited. Why wade through the poop to find the useful nuggets when you can skip the poop wading and get many useful nuggets from more credible sources?


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

MJJEAN said:


> Not @Marduk, but yes. His claims and methods have been seriously called into question and discredited. Why wade through the poop to find the useful nuggets when you can skip the poop wading and get many useful nuggets from more credible sources?




So I can assume you didn’t watch the video?

What other sources? What’s your favorite?


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Girl_power said:


> So I can assume you didn’t watch the video?
> 
> What other sources? What’s your favorite?


I used to be a Dan Savage fan, but he went off the deep end about 8 or so years ago. That's when I stopped bothering with columnists and relationship guru's, those who were on the book circuit making a buck, and other such claptrap and started leaning toward local real world therapy/counseling.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Meh who cares. It's all a bunch of psuedo science, self help gurus trying to push snake oil to make a dime. They prey on a certain % of the population gullible enough to think they know something you don't.
> ...


If you need a marriage book to figure out how to be married to someone, you have problems.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Girl_power said:


> People are not clocks. We are flawed and sinned. You seem to have a very unforgiving attitude for people who make mistakes. I also think I’m too forgiving so I know I’m biased.
> 
> But the truth is, no one gives perfect advice all the time. Have you ever listened to focus on the family? Some of these religious advice groups are the worst, way worse than pearl and savage and gottlemen.
> 
> ...


A few things. First of all, scientific integrity is a thing. All science and scientists make mistakes, because to err is human. However the scientific method itself is designed to course correct when a mistake is discovered. Gottman simply ignores such things and plows right on ahead, which is not acting with integrity as a scientist - which is what he is doing by attempting to 'prove' that he can predict divorce. Therefore, he is not acting in a credible way.

Secondly, the hippocratic oath essentially says:


> I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.


https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=20909

This is the 'do no harm' bit. Gottman clearly can and has done harm here - he has predicted that a whole category of marriages will lead to divorce, and has likely contributed to the relationship stress and downfall of the marriage where otherwise they would not have done so. In replication studies, his predictions are no greater - and sometimes very much less than chance.

Additionally, he clearly says "do these things and you won't get divorced." Again, replication studies have shown that these things often do not work (leading to false hope), and in fact can cause the opposite effect.

Thirdly, if someone's motivation is self-aggrandizement, money, and power instead of to help you, then I personally find such things distasteful. My journey through the marriage-industrial complex has been long, hard, and fraught with half-truths and easy answers that just don't work - many of them documented right here on TAM. The marriage therapy gig is quite the economic and popular one, and the intention of much of it is very much not to help people - it's to sell books, get your ass on the couch and be billable, and to get TED talks. Few and far between are the good therapists that will do the hard work - and make you do the hard work that leads to real change.

I won't belabor it, because there are many Gottman fans here. I will say though that his work has not been helpful in my marriage - in fact it's been the opposite of helpful. I also had many fun debates with old-timers like @jld on this, who also thought the world of the guy.

Do your homework. Use good critical thinking. If you fund some nuggets of wisdom, then good! Just don't swallow it all because you find a few things that resonate for you, because there are dragons there - intellectual and pragmatic.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Girl_power said:


> Have you ever read a marriage book or gone to counseling before?


It wasn't aimed at me, but I have read dozens of relationship books, Gottman and Perel included. I have gone to divorce support groups, a half dozen therapists (while in therapy) and spoken to many, many other therapists in person and on-line. 

I have gone on many quests since the end of my first marriage twentyish years ago, primarily regarding infidelity, but also things like conflict management.

I've also spoken personally in real life to at least a half dozen people that were actively being cheated on, and their journey. And a half dozen of those that were doing the cheating, and their journey. And I've spoken to many, many others online here and elsewhere.

I am not a therapist by any means. I'm not an expert by any means. But I do see therapists differently now, treasure those that do the hard work, and discard those that don't. I don't know many that write books, but I do know a few that will force you to do the work if you go into therapy with them. 

And first and foremost, they have integrity and a willingness to adapt their ideas to reality, rather than adapting reality to their ideas.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> If you need a marriage book to figure out how to be married to someone, you have problems.


Yes.

And lots of people have problems. Have you not noticed?


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

There are people who want to be better spouses or parents or human beings or accountants or whatever job they have so they research and read with the intent to learn and become better. 
There are people who do these things as a means to get what they want... I want a raise so I will get better at my job, I don’t want my wife to leave me so I will read some of these books. 
And there are people who have a general opinion if I’m just found to try harder to be better and don’t read these sort of self help books. 
And there are people who think they are fine, they have nothing to learn, it is what it is.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> There are people who want to be better spouses or parents or human beings or accountants or whatever job they have so they research and read with the intent to learn and become better.
> There are people who do these things as a means to get what they want... I want a raise so I will get better at my job, I don’t want my wife to leave me so I will read some of these books.
> And there are people who have a general opinion if I’m just found to try harder to be better and don’t read these sort of self help books.
> And there are people who think they are fine, they have nothing to learn, it is what it is.


I understand wanting to be better at something or becoming a better person. Problem is that all these books by self proclaimed experts are generalizing. They don't know you or your spouse. Humanoids are complex creatures. Because it worked for Couple A then it must work for Couple B... A book isn't going to solve your relationship problems, only discussing it with your spouse, each owning your shortcomings and figuring out the best way forward. I think counseling can be valuable but these cookie cutter self help books are a waste except for some entertainment value.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I understand wanting to be better at something or becoming a better person. Problem is that all these books by self proclaimed experts are generalizing. They don't know you or your spouse. Humanoids are complex creatures. Because it worked for Couple A then it must work for Couple B... A book isn't going to solve your relationship problems, only discussing it with your spouse, each owning your shortcomings and figuring out the best way forward. I think counseling can be valuable but these cookie cutter self help books are a waste except for some entertainment value.




I think it’s whatever works for you is what you should do.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MJJEAN said:


> I used to be a Dan Savage fan, but he went off the deep end about 8 or so years ago. That's when I stopped bothering with columnists and relationship guru's, those who were on the book circuit making a buck, and other such claptrap and started leaning toward local real world therapy/counseling.


The sum total of Savage’s contribution:

Try to be be good, giving, and game. 

The end.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

As long as one remembers that social science is an oxymoron then they're ahead of the game. It isn't called 'soft' science for nothing. If Gottman is so damn smart, then why is he on his 3rd marriage? He doesn't know anymore than any other married person about marriage. He does know how to write books and sell the public. The proof is in the pudding.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I understand wanting to be better at something or becoming a better person. Problem is that all these books by self proclaimed experts are generalizing. They don't know you or your spouse. Humanoids are complex creatures. Because it worked for Couple A then it must work for Couple B... A book isn't going to solve your relationship problems, only discussing it with your spouse, each owning your shortcomings and figuring out the best way forward. I think counseling can be valuable but these cookie cutter self help books are a waste except for some entertainment value.


I agree, it does need wading through a great deal of nonsense to get to anything of value and that **** can be dangerous. It is also wort remembering that books are not sold and marketted because they work, but because they appeal to people who buy books.

Someone who will not take responsibility will not take a book on accepting responsibility but on why they are always the victim. Someone who is the opposite and will not accept that some things are out of their hands will read about how to take on more responsibility. Someone who cannot understand another person's viewpoint will spend to be told that others are just lacking in empathy.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I understand wanting to be better at something or becoming a better person. Problem is that all these books by self proclaimed experts are generalizing. They don't know you or your spouse. Humanoids are complex creatures. Because it worked for Couple A then it must work for Couple B... A book isn't going to solve your relationship problems, only discussing it with your spouse, each owning your shortcomings and figuring out the best way forward. I think counseling can be valuable but these cookie cutter self help books are a waste except for some entertainment value.


Yes. Recipes are useful when the interactions are btw flour and baking powder, when btw humans, not so much.

Claiming that a complex interaction can be mastered w/ a Few Simple Steps is a grand claim. When someone makes a grand claim, there are those who conclude he must know something, and others who suspect he is selling something.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anyone remember "Men are From Mars.."?

There was nothing wrong with that book, per se. It was a gross over-generalization of a bunch of things that might apply, more or less, to any heterosexual couple. Men are sorta like this. Women are sorta like that. If you are a man who doesn't understand how the "average" female thinks, you are going to make mistakes of attribution and intent that are damaging to your marriage. Unless you rigidly subscribe to the "no significant gender differences" theory, at least. 

It wasn't wrong.  Nor was it completely right. Neither is Perel, or Savage, or probably Gottman. Until someone sits down and writes a book about your SPECIFIC relationship, every bit of advice, including everything discussed here by people who believe themselves to be experts in some small slice of co-habitation, will be at best only generally applicable. That's why the Social Sciences are called "soft". If we're going to toss everything ever written that cannot be p-Tested at the 95% confidence level, then we might as well not even bother with any relationship discussion. 

Sure, I agree that these folk shouldn't be making predictions with confidence intervals and extrapolation that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Anyone familiar with my particular bent knows that I am data driven more than most. Nonetheless, the insights of people doing work and writing in this area are still meaningful, if not the whole story. 

If you want to know what makes people unhappy in a marriage and how they behave under those circumstances, you'd be doing yourself a huge disservice to ignore the opinions of two people who have spent decades researching the topic with real couples in actual marriages. As long as you don't take her advice with the rigidity of Newton's laws of motion, reading "Mating in Captivity" will give you insights you might have otherwise missed. Avoiding Gotmann's bad behaviors in your marriage can hardly cause you much harm, even if he cannot tell you personally if you'll still be married five years from now with the accuracy he claims. 

Sure they're a little self-aggrandizing. That does not by default make them wrong.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Cletus said:


> Sure they're a little self-aggrandizing. That does not by default make them wrong.


It does if they make claims to be scientific and that they've proven something, when all replication attempts have failed to demonstrate that they're right.

If you ignore that, it just shows you're lying and attempting to appear credible while doing so. There's many reasons for the current anti-science movement that results in anti-vaxxers, etc, and these kind of lies are part of it. And as a result, people make uninformed choices, become entrenched and dogmatic in their thinking, and people get hurt or die... and old diseases come back. 

Mimetic diseases, too... like thinking about relationships as a transactional/predictive mechanical model.


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

I would have to agree with Marduk on validating science. The reason there are so many journals of science is because true valid science can be replicated. If you replicate the process you should get the same results. If you don't the process should be questioned or the theory thrown out.

I think you in the human relationship world you have to combine a bunch of source's information and apply to your situation cautiously. It seems like everyone makes at least one good point but it may take a bunch of different perspectives to develop one plan.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Girl_power said:


> So I can assume you didn’t watch the video?
> 
> What other sources? What’s your favorite?


My recent favourite relationship books have all been trauma informed, so they're not meant for everyone - just for relationships that have been or are currently impacted by trauma, sometimes resulting in PTSD and BPD-like behaviour.

I Hate You, Don't Leave Me
https://www.amazon.ca/Hate-You_Dont-Leave-Understanding-Personality/dp/1491575735



> People with borderline personality disorder (BPD) experience such violent and frightening mood swings that they often fear for their sanity. They can be euphoric one moment, despairing and depressed the next. There are an estimated 18 million sufferers of BPD living in America today  each displaying remarkably similar symptoms: - A shaky sense of identity - Sudden outbursts of anger - Oversensitivity to real or imagined rejection - Brief, turbulent love affairs - Intense feelings of emptiness - Eating disorders, drug abuse, and other self-destructive tendencies - An irrational fear of abandonment and an inability to be alone For years BPD was difficult to describe, diagnose, and treat. But with this classic guide, Dr. Jerold J. Kreisman and health writer Hal Straus offer much-needed professional advice, helping victims and their families understand and cope with this troubling, shockingly widespread affliction. This completely revised and updated edition includes information on the most up-to-date research that has opened doors to the neurobiological, genetic, and developmental roots of the disorder, as well as the connections between BPD and substance abuse, sexual abuse, post-traumatic stress disorder, ADHD, and eating disorders, making it a vital reference for understanding and living with BPD.


The Body Keeps the Score: Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma
https://www.amazon.ca/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/0670785938/


> A pioneering researcher and one of the world’s foremost experts on traumatic stress offers a bold new paradigm for healing
> 
> Trauma is a fact of life. Veterans and their families deal with the painful aftermath of combat; one in five Americans has been molested; one in four grew up with alcoholics; one in three couples have engaged in physical violence. Such experiences inevitably leave traces on minds, emotions, and even on biology. Sadly, trauma sufferers frequently pass on their stress to their partners and children.
> 
> Renowned trauma expert Bessel van der Kolk has spent over three decades working with survivors. In The Body Keeps the Score, he transforms our understanding of traumatic stress, revealing how it literally rearranges the brain’s wiring—specifically areas dedicated to pleasure, engagement, control, and trust. He shows how these areas can be reactivated through innovative treatments including neurofeedback, mindfulness techniques, play, yoga, and other therapies. Based on Dr. van der Kolk’s own research and that of other leading specialists, The Body Keeps the Score offers proven alternatives to drugs and talk therapy—and a way to reclaim lives.


The more I dig, the more I think you need to define what your relationship problem really is, and then deal with it head-on with a targeted plan. The more general stuff I find to basically just say "be nice to each other," which is good, but ultimately won't fix all problems.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Anyone remember "Men are From Mars.."?
> 
> There was nothing wrong with that book, per se. It was a gross over-generalization of a bunch of things that might apply, more or less, to any heterosexual couple. Men are sorta like this. Women are sorta like that. If you are a man who doesn't understand how the "average" female thinks, you are going to make mistakes of attribution and intent that are damaging to your marriage. Unless you rigidly subscribe to the "no significant gender differences" theory, at least.
> 
> ...


It is fine to give advice in either a lighthearted or serious way. 

But when you abuse science and make empirical statements that science doesn't back up, it's akin to a financial planner telling me I can't lose money in an investment in which I actually can lose money.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I just re watched this video because I absolutely love it. I don’t know how anyone can say something negative about this advice. As a women... it’s spot on.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

https://www.gottman.com/couples/apps/

@EleGirl, both of our MCs studied under Dr. Gottman. Our first after agreeing to attempt R was nothing short of stellar with his methods. The MC introduced us the the Gottman Cards (See above link). These exercises we did using the cards/app helped us improve our communication immensely. I posted this link sometime back. All I can say is I will testify to the effectiveness of his techniques employed by both our MCs. If you have not done so, I would recommend you consider visiting the link and downloading the app. My wife and I have these on our iPads and our communication improved vastly after doing these for a month.


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