# Our journey after 1st MC session



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Well some of you I'm sure remember my thread. Wife, boss, trip blah blah blah. If not, sorry it's been deleted and I may mention some things but I don't see the need to go into it again. 

I am back just for some support as we continue our journey. 

We went to our first ever MC last Monday night. I didn't know what to expect really except being asked a bunch of questions. Our therapist did ask questions but not as much as I thought she would. We talked as much as her trying to explain why we were there while my wife and I held hands, to confuse her. lol We all three talked equally so it wasn't weird or anything. Didn't get too much accomplished but I expected that on the first one. We go back Monday again. Suppose to come with the top three things we want to work on. 

What's been going on: 
Well I exercise/workout 3-4 times a week. Joined a gym that will open in May. My diet is much better. I get home in time to have a 30 minute sit/lay down to unwind, workout for an hour then cook supper. By then my wife is home. We talk while eating and cleaning up. The last say 2 hrs we either go for a coffee, walk or sex or an occasional tv show that we both like. She starts work usually at 7-7:30 until from 5:45 to 7:30. She is so exhausted this week but still makes an effort for us. I had the issue with her boss but that has taken a different form now. His intentions are not a worry for me now but he has been getting more demanding of her and her performance. He has been on her case lately to manage the team and time better. She is giving 200% I must say. Doing the best she can there and at home. If she is late I still get a bit upset and tell her. She promises it will change very soon. I told her to ask her boss today exactly what does he expect out of her as far as hours. One day he tells to do whatever it takes and then the next day he is asking her why she is there late. She said she would ask him. 
I have been up and down depending on what happens with her. She has worked 11 days straight now. It has been okay but I do get frustrated some days when she decides to stay until 6 or 7. That makes her 11 or 12 hour days. 

Other thoughts I have had that I brought up and want to ask here. 

Do you ask for opinions from your spouse about issues? work, kids, anything. 
Do you value their opinion? 

Also, for those of you who know my story as I write this I am thinking about my wife is about to leave and go for lunch with her boss and other clients. Yes it's business but it still makes me uncomfortable a little. And yes she will be thinking about me too.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

cjl said:


> Well some of you I'm sure remember my thread. Wife, boss, trip blah blah blah. If not, sorry it's been deleted and I may mention some things but I don't see the need to go into it again.
> 
> I am back just for some support as we continue our journey.
> 
> ...


Focusing on the bolded part, it sounds like he might be starting to think she's not the right person for the job. Her job as the leader of the team is to train the team to function at a high level whether she is there or not. If she is unable to train them up to that standard then she is not the right person to be in that position. 

He doesn't want her staying so late because it's a sign that she doesn't trust her team. And it's not just a sign to him, it's a sign to them also.

So here's my suggestion. If she can't trust her team members to handle the department in her absence then she needs to replace them and train up the replacements. If she does think her team can handle it in her absence then she needs to get out of their way and let them do their jobs.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> Focusing on the bolded part, it sounds like he might be starting to think she's not the right person for the job. Her job as the leader of the team is to train the team to function at a high level whether she is there or not. If she is unable to train them up to that standard then she is not the right person to be in that position.
> 
> He doesn't want her staying so late because it's a sign that she doesn't trust her team. And it's not just a sign to him, it's a sign to them also.
> 
> So here's my suggestion. If she can't trust her team members to handle the department in her absence then she needs to replace them and train up the replacements. If she does think her team can handle it in her absence then she needs to get out of their way and let them do their jobs.



Thanks for replying.
No I think he might be wondering if she can balance it. She has trust in them it's just it's so busy she has to step in and help all the time. He doesn't want her to do that. They are currently training 4 more people but won't be ready for another 2 weeks. Then another 4 in April. That should take care of that but he wants her to concentrate more on them as in time management. Keep everyone in check. If she is always taking calls how can she do that is what he is saying. I agree with him.


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## Kahlil Gibran (Jan 27, 2014)

cjl said:


> Well some of you I'm sure remember my thread. Wife, boss, trip blah blah blah. If not, sorry it's been deleted and I may mention some things but I don't see the need to go into it again.
> 
> I have been up and down depending on what happens with her. She has worked 11 days straight now. It has been okay but I do get frustrated some days when she decides to stay until 6 or 7. That makes her 11 or 12 hour days.


As I recall in the thread you deleted, you were really pleased with how much money your wife was making at her place of employment. Now you’re worried she works too much. Also in the aforementioned thread you had big concerns with how much attention your wife was paying to her boss and vice versa.
At some point, I’d imagine your MC is going to ask if the extra $$$ is worth it.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Kahlil Gibran said:


> As I recall in the thread you deleted, you were really pleased with how much money your wife was making at her place of employment. Now you’re worried she works too much. Also in the aforementioned thread you had big concerns with how much attention your wife was paying to her boss and vice versa.
> At some point, I’d imagine your MC is going to ask if the extra $$$ is worth it.


I am pleased and proud of her success. Money is money doesn't mean happiness for me.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

2nd session last night. 

We were suppose to bring the top 2 or 3 problems we wanted to work on. 
W ended up with having to make notes for herself to be reminded throughout the day to include me with decisions and just have better communication. She is also suppose to have a talk with her boss to see exactly what his expectation is for her concerning the work hours. I still have a hard time with her working 10-13 hr days. 
For me, I'm suppose to continue to express my feelings about things that I may not like and always be open with that. For my insecurity feelings I'm suppose to get active in things for myself so I don't focus on W 100% of the time like I have been doing. I already joined a gym but I need to find something else. Got some work to do. 

W was in tears at the end and all the way home. She said it was hard to hear from someone else that her trying to please everyone will not work. That it's not fair to all involved. That her marriage will not survive another 5 years going this way like she wants.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

I knew I didn't like her boss. Do you think her pulling away emotionally from him time coincides with his change in attitude? Glad to see you are the mate guarding husband. Good job.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> I knew I didn't like her boss. *Do you think her pulling away emotionally from him time coincides with his change in attitude?* Glad to see you are the mate guarding husband. Good job.


Extremely interesting question, WL. cjl, what do you think? Is your W doing her job any differently from before, when she and Boss Hogg were tight?


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## gulizioquel (Mar 25, 2014)

That her marriage will not survive another 5 years going this way like she wants.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

cjl said:


> W was in tears at the end and all the way home. She said it was hard to hear from someone else that her trying to please everyone will not work. That it's not fair to all involved. *That her marriage will not survive another 5 years going this way like she wants.*


Clarify. I see you having turned a BIG corner on the original thread.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

weightlifter said:


> I knew I didn't like her boss. Do you think her pulling away emotionally from him time coincides with his change in attitude? Glad to see you are the mate guarding husband. Good job.


Let me paint you a better picture of the situation now. 

He has always pushed her to make her a better manager. He has never come out and told her that she has to work long hours. She thinks he beats around the bush about it while they discuss others not doing it. He tells her probably once every 2 or 3 weeks he doesn't want her to burn out. Thus the reason the counselor and I want her to ask him directly want he wants from her. If he says he wants her to work 12 hour days for now then at least I know what I'm up against. Right now I don't know if her job requires it or she is just choosing to for the reason of not letting him or the team down. I don't think his attitude has changed it's just that I now know more of what is going on. Her attitude is the one that is changing. He is more demanding but I think it's over them being busier and having new people. Also, he even said in front of me Saturday that he is tired of the complaining from her team. They have changed some peoples hours and didn't like it.

Let me say this though. We went to a charity event, marathon/walk on Saturday. Some of her coworkers were there and he was there with his 2 little girls. Now before we arrived to this place we had met somewhere but the boss didn't show up so she text him and he replied that he was already there so she told all of us that and we took off to go there. 

When we got there we walked up with 3 of her team but the boss was in another area. I got upset because W went into this zone I can't explain. She left me standing with the 3, came back said she was looking for the table of food. Then we started to walk inside before we walked in the event to see other people and her boss. She just was in this zone walking leading the pack inside, I was back with the other 3. We got inside and I went straight to her, grabbed her arm (gently) and said wtf is going on with you, I'm still here you know, you're not here alone. I could see she was going 90 to nothing in her head. After that she came back down out of that and was more aware of me. I still haven't figured this out. We talked about it but she says she was just nervous because we didn't know exactly what to do when we got there, I'm not totally buying it but not sure what it was.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Philat said:


> Extremely interesting question, WL. cjl, what do you think? Is your W doing her job any differently from before, when she and Boss Hogg were tight?


Not any different just more challenges now. Most of my concern right now is with my W.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

weightlifter said:


> Clarify. I see you having turned a BIG corner on the original thread.


She keeps telling me just another 5 years and I'm done. I'm all yours and we can retire. 
My response before the trip was okay but I'm not 100% believing this. Show me. 
My response after the trip is okay but I want you now not in 5 years when we are not guaranteed tomorrow. 

All I really want is balance. If she could work it out that she leaves most days at the same time and not working her self to death then I will be happy with that. 
Yesterday, she text me saying leaving at 6:15. So she went in at 7:20. That's already 11 hours. 6:50 comes she text again saying I'm so sorry I haven't left yet. So she leaves at 7 gets home at 7:35. I had dinner ready for 7. She comes home sheeplessly apologizing again. Like the other 20 times in the last 2 months. I told her why do you keep apologizing, you will just do it again and again so it won't mean anything after a while.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Now I dont like him twice.

Still think he was probing.

Now might just just burn her out to boot. Incident sounds like almost a small panic. 

BTW again. I think you are fine and on guard. Good job.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

weightlifter said:


> Now I dont like him twice.
> 
> Still think he was probing.
> 
> ...


Thanks much.:smthumbup:


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Judging by your other threads and posts (and the potential EA with an XBF that could very well have ended another way if she hadn't stopped it), it sounds like your W is a serial people pleaser. She wants so bad to please clients and coworkers at the office (not to mention her boss), she stays late for no real good reason other than to please them...

...and she's afraid of making her boss disappointed in her...

...and he is taking full advantage of her.

Sad thing is, her job and her boss are getting all the best of her, and you're only getting the leftover scraps in the emotional "doggy bag" that she brings home.

It's like that old song "Red Rubber Ball":

"Always running, never caring
That's the life you live,
Stolen minutes of your time
Were all you had to give."


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

F-102 said:


> Judging by your other threads and posts (and the potential EA with an XBF that could very well have ended another way if she hadn't stopped it), it sounds like your W is a serial people pleaser. She wants so bad to please clients and coworkers at the office (not to mention her boss), she stays late for no real good reason other than to please them...
> 
> ...and she's afraid of making her boss disappointed in her...
> 
> ...



:iagree:
That's how I feel. And most certainly that is how she is feeling and doing. There is nothing more than that going on. Yes she respects him a great deal but I don't think it's more than that. Disappointing aspect is something she even said. She doesn't know why and maybe it came from her parents she said. She always felt she needed to do more than everyone else at every job she has had. Put in the most effort.
I do get the "scraps". Like last night she comes home drained. We eat talk a little and then she is done ready for bed. I feel March 25 2014, chalked up to being alone for me and her all about work. What a waste.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

W just forwarded an email about a "staff only" event on a Sunday. 
Wants to know my thoughts. Is it me or is "staff only" events suppose to be held during work hours? The weekend should include spouses and or family? 

How do I win in this situation?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I really think she needs a new job.....

And no, you can't win in this situation. She goes, you feel like she is cheating, you say don't go, she is mad at you.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

I think that your W's boss expects WAAAAAY too much of his employees. If it was up to him, he'd hire single people only so that they could devote their entire lives to him and him only.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

F-102 said:


> I think that your W's boss expects WAAAAAY too much of his employees. If it was up to him, he'd hire single people only so that they could devote their entire lives to him and him only.


:iagree:

And a bit of a bully as well, IMO. People need time away from work, especially the weekends. But, in this economy, people are afraid to dissent. And he knows that.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Exactly. In my job (railroader), they have been using us to the last minute possible. 12-14 hour days are not uncommon, and management knows that they can afford to be VERY picky these days.

80+hour weeks for me are not uncommon.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Well I'm defeated. 

W got upset with me over thoughts I gave her about the Sunday event. She didn't sign up but was pissed at me. She then went to the boss to ask him what he expected of her as far as hours. He gave the typical "whatever it takes bull****" and technically you work 8 hours but blah blah blah. It made her feel like crap. He kinda laughed it off but said maybe this position is not for you. She left upset thinking now shes done it, he thinks she can't handle it. So we had a big fight over the phone about it all. She took the stance that I agreed a year and half ago that this would be difficult task for us if she took on this role and I gave her the okay to go for it. My stance is that I didn't care enough back then but now I do and now I'm a different person. 
She would still quit for me and says I am more important but she still wants to do this. I have no choice but to shut up and let her. If I don't she may never get over the fact that I made her quit this. I told her I don't know how it's going to go for us as a marriage but what I do know is I won't be around if she is still putting this job before us after a few years. 
I gave in and said go full steam ahead. Work all you want. Go to the functions. You have my blessing. I'm just really tired of fighting about it. I'm trying to put our marriage first but she is hell bent on retiring us in a few years. I told her I would pray about it but I doubt any God would want us to put money before everything else.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Sorry cjl, this is a toughie. I know that if she is putting in all those hours, I would have to find hobbies to do that didn't involve her. And she would feel the pain of me not being there 100% when it was convenient for her. Almost like a 180.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

naiveonedave said:


> Sorry cjl, this is a toughie. I know that if she is putting in all those hours, I would have to find hobbies to do that didn't involve her. And she would feel the pain of me not being there 100% when it was convenient for her. Almost like a 180.


Yes I know. I have to do something and not just sit home waiting. I thought about a part time job but I don't want to commit to that all the time. Volunteering is a thought too. A hobby that includes meeting and making friends is what I really need. Just what and where??? Will really have to put some thought into it now.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

cjl said:


> Yes I know. I have to do something and not just sit home waiting. I thought about a part time job but I don't want to commit to that all the time. Volunteering is a thought too. A hobby that includes meeting and making friends is what I really need. Just what and where??? Will really have to put some thought into it now.


Sorry to hear this.
Putting the job before the marriage well you know how this will end.
The boss having a staff only function on a Sunday?
Way over the top.
Go do something so when she gets back you are not at home jmo.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

find a sport, take up fishing, become a fitness nut, read, bird watching, ... And don't let her know where you are....

best of luck.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

nikoled said:


> This maybe won't even be relative, but I am a wife to a husband who works 12 hour days (at minimum- usually longer) 6 days a week. My husband is building his career- he is self employed and also has an extra job for some "stable" income so he works a ton. It was fine for a while. We do have 4 kids and they are busy so I'm really busy too dealing with them as basically a single parent 6 days a week. As much as I understood it all, I did have a hard time not resenting him for it. I was constantly sending him job leads for other jobs and just feeling angry- pushing him away when he was home, etc. I realized more recently, however, that I was not being a good, supportive wife. So I flipped that and am trying that approach- it is working so much better for both of us. Rather than him having the anxiety and pressure (from me being angry with him) from me he has my support- he is happier and he in turn is doing a better job at reaching his professional goals. We want this to be a temporary situation, but when I was working against it I was probably just prolonging it. I also told him that when he is home he needs to be present- not behind his computer, on the phone, etc. That is working well too. That all being said, I still HATE his job hours. I pray that soon there will be a day when he comes home by 7 or 8 each night rather than midnight or 2 am. I don't even hope for "normal" time for most people because I don't think that'll ever be the norm for us- and that is O.K. Him being gone a lot does allow me some time to do some things for me too though- I think it is great you are working out. So, for us, me being supportive, even if I don't love it, is making us all happier and allowing him to accomplish his goals faster.


In life there is always someone in a more difficult situation than the next person. I don't have it that bad compared to you. I'm sorry. If you can do it I guess I can too. I don't even know why it bothers me so much about the working late. We have no kids in the house to look after anymore like you. I think it might be that the job is more important than me thinking. Which she says is not. What was it for you besides the kids and housework?


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Define "event"
Generically where? 
hours?
No alone time right?

Her boss is a d!ck. I hope you see it now.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

weightlifter said:


> Define "event"
> Generically where?
> hours?
> No alone time right?
> ...


I live in Calgary. We have the stampede and rodeo in the summer for just over a week. A fair if you will. Will be for a lunch and the afternoon rodeo. No time alone? I don't know. 
Her response is she does not like that he does the "staff only" thing. She knows that they cannot shut down the business thus why it's on a Sunday. She does not know why for sure no spouses other than it's too expensive. It is a package for $122. You get a drink ticket, free wine tasting, lunch by a chef, entry into the fair and the rodeo. 
Yes he is a d!ck when it comes to these things.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

weightlifter said:


> Define "event"
> Generically where?
> hours?
> No alone time right?
> ...


:iagree:
If she is already putting in 12 to 14 hr days and then having to spend a staff only Sunday is way over the top.
She should hire a head hunter to help her in finding another job.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

nikoled said:


> Our oldest went off to college so things slowed down just a little bit for ME following a stressful, crazy, senior year of high school. My husband was just as busy and I was still busy, but had a little breathing room and found I was really kind of lonely. Saw other people with their spouses around in the evenings and kind of had forgotten that that was even an option for some! I also realized my husband was NOT happy, was stressed, and had turned kind of robotic. He was spinning his wheels a bit and I needed him to get some traction so that this "temporary" situation didn't turn into forever. I can't change him, but I can change MY reaction to him so I have done just that. And in doing that our whole situation has improved a bit...hoping for more, but we are working on it.


I feel the loneliness too sometimes. I just need to get busy with something. You make it sound so easy to change your reaction, I'll see how it goes for me.


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## Kahlil Gibran (Jan 27, 2014)

Honestly, it’s surprising your wife isn’t harboring as much resentment as you.
She’s working her tail off bringing home good money with the hope of retirement in 5 years and all you can do is give her grief about the whole thing. Play golf, go sailing or whatever and thank your lucky stars you have someone enabling you to have it so good.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

cjl said:


> I live in Calgary. We have the stampede and rodeo in the summer for just over a week. A fair if you will. Will be for a lunch and the afternoon rodeo. No time alone? I don't know.
> Her response is she does not like that he does the "staff only" thing. She knows that they cannot shut down the business thus why it's on a Sunday. She does not know why for sure no spouses other than it's too expensive. It is a package for $122. You get a drink ticket, free wine tasting, lunch by a chef, entry into the fair and the rodeo.
> Yes he is a d!ck when it comes to these things.


Too expensive... Bullsh!t. For some reason her AZZHOLE boss is family hostile. He chucks 6K per employee to have massages in the Carribbean and cant do another $122. Yeah right.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Kahlil Gibran said:


> Honestly, it’s surprising your wife isn’t harboring as much resentment as you.
> She’s working her tail off bringing home good money with the hope of retirement in 5 years and all you can do is give her grief about the whole thing. Play golf, go sailing or whatever and thank your lucky stars you have someone enabling you to have it so good.


Um I bring home more than her right now but yes I am thankful she has a good position.


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## Kahlil Gibran (Jan 27, 2014)

cjl said:


> Um I bring home more than her right now but yes I am thankful she has a good position.


You make more than her, but have more free time? Than yes, the setup doesn’t make much sense.
Maybe you should point out to her, when you brake it down to dollars per hour, she isn’t doing as great as she might think. Not to mention what its doing to her marriage and the fact she has so little time for herself.
Plus, this rodeo/fair event sounds completely social and doesn’t contribute anything to the productivity or strategy of the company, therefore what’s the point? So the employees who already spend 60 hours a week together can see more of each other?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Kahlil Gibran said:


> You make more than her, but have more free time? Than yes, the setup doesn’t make much sense.
> Maybe you should point out to her, when you brake it down to dollars per hour, she isn’t doing as great as she might think. Not to mention what its doing to her marriage and the fact she has so little time for herself.
> Plus, this rodeo/fair event sounds completely social and doesn’t contribute anything to the productivity or strategy of the company, therefore what’s the point? So the employees who already spend 60 hours a week together can see more of each other?


THIS!!
Tell her this!:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
This is bs.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

So I'll predict near vacation time there will be a sudden change of plans and lo and behold there will be some convoluted reason by the boss that spouses can't go again.
I already see where this is going I know you do to.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

You might as well start living like you are single. So you may only see her this saturday if she doesn't go to work and then the staff event is sunday.
You have some decisions to make.
Continue to be #2 to job/boss or...
Move on.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

She puts in all these hours to be able to retire in 5 years.

But by doing so you may not be around in 5 years.

Does she see the irony?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

You have been putting in the effort.
Ask yourself has she?


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Your wife reminds me of a person I know who worked himself ragged and ended up having to find another job. They brought in someone to replace him who flat out said 'nope, I'm not working all that overtime' and walked out the door when his shift ended. They ended up hiring two people for the position that was originally being done by one who had to work very long hours to do it.

This is the way of it in the workforce. She is being used up, and she's letting it happen. If she left, I bet he'd have to hire two people to cover what she is doing, but while she is there, he won't bother.

I know another who was also treated this way, plus she was blamed for anything that went wrong. She ended up having a heart attack that everyone knows was caused by stress. Her boss insisted she sign a letter that said her heart attack wasn't caused by stress as soon as she got back to work.

This guy doesn't give a crap about getting in her pants imo, he's just an @sshole employer who is screwing her over and trying to make out like he's boss of the year by doing team building exercises during his employees spare time. He wants them all to be completely devoted to work to the exclusion of all else.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

breeze said:


> Your wife reminds me of a person I know who worked himself ragged and ended up having to find another job. They brought in someone to replace him who flat out said 'nope, I'm not working all that overtime' and walked out the door when his shift ended. They ended up hiring two people for the position that was originally being done by one who had to work very long hours to do it.
> 
> *This is the way of it in the workforce. She is being used up, and she's letting it happen. If she left, I bet he'd have to hire two people to cover what she is doing, but while she is there, he won't bother.*
> 
> ...


I agree, and I don't buy this millionaire in 5 years bull squeezin's either. He got her to buy in with pie in the sky talk of how rich she'll be and he's going to keep using her until she's used up.

And he knows she has trouble at home and that it involves the extra-curricular "team building" trips without family on family time but he's still pushing her into them. It's almost cult-like the way he's trying to break his employees away from their families, as if he wants to make them emotionally dependent on him.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> I agree, and I don't buy this millionaire in 5 years bull squeezin's either. He got her to buy in with pie in the sky talk of how rich she'll be and he's going to keep using her until she's used up.
> 
> And he knows she has trouble at home and that it involves the extra-curricular "team building" trips without family on family time but he's still pushing her into them. *It's almost cult-like the way he's trying to break his employees away from their families, as if he wants to make them emotionally dependent on him*.


From Op earlier :

When we got there we walked up with 3 of her team but the boss was in another area. I got upset because W went into this zone I can't explain. She left me standing with the 3, came back said she was looking for the table of food. Then we started to walk inside before we walked in the event to see other people and her boss. She just was in this zone walking leading the pack inside, I was back with the other 3. We got inside and I went straight to her, grabbed her arm (gently) and said wtf is going on with you, I'm still here you know, you're not here alone.* I could see she was going 90 to nothing in her head. After that she came back down out of that and was more aware of me. I still haven't figured this out. We talked about it but she says she was just nervous because we didn't know exactly what to do when we got there, I'm not totally buying it but not sure what it was.*


Whatever it is, the boss has got her focused on him and work. To the exclusion, it seems, of her husband.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

With the hours she is putting in now her chances of making it 5 years is pretty slim at least staying healthy that is. This is hypothetical but if you were having an affair would she even notice. I'm not saying to have one just making a point.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Kahlil Gibran said:


> You make more than her, but have more free time? Than yes, the setup doesn’t make much sense.
> Maybe you should point out to her, when you brake it down to dollars per hour, she isn’t doing as great as she might think. Not to mention what its doing to her marriage and the fact she has so little time for herself.
> Plus, this rodeo/fair event sounds completely social and doesn’t contribute anything to the productivity or strategy of the company, therefore what’s the point? So the employees who already spend 60 hours a week together can see more of each other?


I said I bring home more than her, she makes more than me but has to pay into the company to be part owner. 

We both agree on the event. She is not going. But she can't do anything about what he decides for these. There will be more.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

tom67 said:


> So I'll predict near vacation time there will be a sudden change of plans and lo and behold there will be some convoluted reason by the boss that spouses can't go again.
> I already see where this is going I know you do to.


If this happens which I wouldn't be surprised she has already said she won't go. It's going with me or nothing. But thanks for a reminder about this. I will ask her again this weekend to what she agreed on and make sure it still stands.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

breeze said:


> Your wife reminds me of a person I know who worked himself ragged and ended up having to find another job. They brought in someone to replace him who flat out said 'nope, I'm not working all that overtime' and walked out the door when his shift ended. They ended up hiring two people for the position that was originally being done by one who had to work very long hours to do it.
> 
> This is the way of it in the workforce. She is being used up, and she's letting it happen. If she left, I bet he'd have to hire two people to cover what she is doing, but while she is there, he won't bother.
> 
> ...


Yes you are right. It's funny because there was two people doing what she is doing now. He fired the other one and asked W if she thought she could do both. So she's doing both. As of last night she is not sure if she can do it. We talked and I gave some advice. Do it like he wants you to and then if you fail at least it was his way. 
You are totally right in the last paragraph.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

cjl said:


> Yes you are right. It's funny because there was two people doing what she is doing now. He fired the other one and asked W if she thought she could do both. So she's doing both. As of last night she is not sure if she can do it. We talked and I gave some advice. Do it like he wants you to and then if you fail at least it was his way.
> You are totally right in the last paragraph.


I wish you the best cjl and hope she moderates her schedule not for you but for her own well being.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

tom67 said:


> I wish you the best cjl and hope she moderates her schedule not for you but for her own well being.


Thanks tom67. 

She was really still shaken from the night before. Kept apologizing for getting upset. Said she felt like she beat me down. Was in tears a couple of times. I have to help her with this and not be distant. She is in a difficult spot now. I love her so much and she does me the same, no doubt. As long as she is open with everything and keeps me in mind I will support her. I think she gets it now but is a bit stuck.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Unfortunately, we are all bigamists: married to a spouse and a job.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Remind her she is doing a job that previously required 2 people.
She WILL burn out way before 5 years jmo. She should get her resume out asap.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

cjl said:


> Thanks tom67.
> 
> She was really still shaken from the night before. Kept apologizing for getting upset. Said she felt like she beat me down. Was in tears a couple of times. I have to help her with this and not be distant. She is in a difficult spot now. I love her so much and she does me the same, no doubt. As long as she is open with everything and keeps me in mind I will support her. I think she gets it now but is a bit stuck.


Good idea. She does need your support. She knows how you feel but she's between a rock and a hard place. Do unto her as you'd want her to do unto you if you were in her position.

One thought. The money she's putting back into the company is for stock or is vested in her somehow? I keep having this thought of her leaving and losing that investment.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

sidney2718 said:


> Good idea. She does need your support. She knows how you feel but she's between a rock and a hard place. Do unto her as you'd want her to do unto you if you were in her position.
> 
> One thought. The money she's putting back into the company is for stock or is vested in her somehow? I keep having this thought of her leaving and losing that investment.


I was thinking that too. If she's just sinking money into it without being given shares or whatever, this could all be for nothing.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Btw cjl. It doesnt always look like it from my posts but i think you two have a better than average shot at going the distance together. I see a lot of love and RESPECT.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> Good idea. She does need your support. She knows how you feel but she's between a rock and a hard place. Do unto her as you'd want her to do unto you if you were in her position.
> 
> One thought. The money she's putting back into the company is for stock or is vested in her somehow? I keep having this thought of her leaving and losing that investment.


It is for shares.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

weightlifter said:


> Btw cjl. It doesnt always look like it from my posts but i think you two have a better than average shot at going the distance together. I see a lot of love and RESPECT.


Thanks.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

cjl,

I have spent the greater portion of my professional life in the employment sector, placing candidates, counseling them, helping others become entrepreneur's etc. Your W needs to find a good headhunter and leave this place. 

She is working for someone who has a Messiah complex. I have seen this many times before. He may not be sleeping with your wife but he would if he had the chance and I guarantee you he is bedding someone in his employ presently and always has another ready to go whenever he is finished with his current vice. 

This is all about him, his power and his ability to manipulate and control. It is almost like he is a cult leader (in some ways he is). It will be very difficult for her to separate as you have witnessed already because hey it is very difficult to walk away from "God". 

I suggest you bring this up to your MC.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

RClawson said:


> cjl,
> 
> I have spent the greater portion of my professional life in the employment sector, placing candidates, counseling them, helping others become entrepreneur's etc. Your W needs to find a good headhunter and leave this place.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your thoughts. 

He is most of those but he is not sleeping with anyone, I can assure you that. There is model type females and one of them he was ready to let go because she showed too much cleavage. That is only one situation I can think of. 

He is already planning on leaving the company to someone else in a year. Going on another new company trail. 

I will bring it up the next MC session.


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## happi_g_more2 (Jan 27, 2014)

I remember you  Sounds like you guys are doing OK. My wife and I are in the same boat. She has no boundaries with work and is a real go get'er. In your original thread, i kind of harp on you about these work only trips. Ive never found them acceptable. for any reason here is why
1) If boss is married, then WTF..really, you are going on exotic vacation with other women
2) Boss is not married, then WTF, you are going on an exotic vacation with your single boss
3) Company funds. Spend 100k on a company vacation..why dont you hire someone with the money to make the company more profitable. Reinvest it. dont blow it on a crap vacation
4) As a re-ward or bonus? Nothing speaks better to employees then cash. Ill take 3 grand over a company trip to some destination any and every day of the week

Now, if he is single and only hires single people and thats some kind of pre-req and they all like to go away 2 times a year and party...then maybe I can get behind that concept

There is no weekend company only events. She should lay this out with her boss verbally. "I work hard, Ill work on weekends, but if we are just going out on a weekend to have fun, I prefer to do that with my husband". My wife actually does semi weekly lunches with her team that she pays for herself in lieu of outside work hour team building events.

anyway, just my opinion


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

happi_g_more2 said:


> I remember you  Sounds like you guys are doing OK. My wife and I are in the same boat. She has no boundaries with work and is a real go get'er. In your original thread, i kind of harp on you about these work only trips. Ive never found them acceptable. for any reason here is why
> 1) If boss is married, then WTF..really, you are going on exotic vacation with other women
> 2) Boss is not married, then WTF, you are going on an exotic vacation with your single boss
> 3) Company funds. Spend 100k on a company vacation..why dont you hire someone with the money to make the company more profitable. Reinvest it. dont blow it on a crap vacation
> ...


1. Trip was a mistake, we have learned from that. Rule now, if I don't go she doesn't either. 
3. He looks at the trip as a carrot for the sales team to make more sales. Always has little bets and contests about sales. 
4. They make bonuses and commission so the trip is above and beyond those. 

"staff only" events, i dunno what he is thinking on that. Doesn't want them to interfere with the business hours for one and cost I guess I dunno, she doesn't either.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

"There is model type females and one of them he was ready to let go because she showed too much cleavage."

You mean he counseled her repeatedly and she would not conform and he let her go? 

Based on your last thread and how he runs things I am not buying he does not sleep with employees. I know you said he was a troll but power is an incredible aphrodisiac to many women.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

RClawson said:


> "There is model type females and one of them he was ready to let go because she showed too much cleavage."
> 
> You mean he counseled her repeatedly and she would not conform and he let her go?
> 
> Based on your last thread and how he runs things I am not buying he does not sleep with employees. I know you said he was a troll but power is an incredible aphrodisiac to many women.


No. He had a talk with her about that. To be more professional looking. She was not let go. If I'm wanting to sleep with the women I don't mind some cleavage showing is what I'm trying to say. He did mind it.


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## happi_g_more2 (Jan 27, 2014)

cjl said:


> No. He had a talk with her about that. To be more professional looking. She was not let go. If I'm wanting to sleep with the women I don't mind some cleavage showing is what I'm trying to say. He did mind it.


I wouldnt psychoanalyze this guy into a non threat. Look at this forum for christ sake. Cheating with bosses, family members, fitness trainers, best friends, ON's, god damn ministers..it goes on and on. now, if you are confident in your wife, thats one thing. But dont go swear up and down as to what this guy is or isnt capable of..or try and reason his actions. Again, just saying


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## happi_g_more2 (Jan 27, 2014)

cjl said:


> 1. Trip was a mistake, we have learned from that. Rule now, if I don't go she doesn't either.
> 3. He looks at the trip as a carrot for the sales team to make more sales. Always has little bets and contests about sales.
> 4. They make bonuses and commission so the trip is above and beyond those.
> 
> "staff only" events, i dunno what he is thinking on that. Doesn't want them to interfere with the business hours for one and cost I guess I dunno, she doesn't either.


1) perfect!!!
2) Thats what Im saying. If this is a small company and your wife has ownership (decision making abilities) should advocate for another form of carrot. You dont have to answer this i know its not a path you want to go down, im just saying, these things are NEVER good they always eventually produce something bad. Drunken antics that are not good for the company.
3) That doesnt make sense. You still compensate with money, not lavish trips away from peoples families. If they make bonus's and commission..then pay them bigger bonus's and commission


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

happi_g_more2 said:


> 1) perfect!!!
> 2) Thats what Im saying. If this is a small company and your wife has ownership (decision making abilities) should advocate for another form of carrot. You dont have to answer this i know its not a path you want to go down, im just saying, these things are NEVER good they always eventually produce something bad. Drunken antics that are not good for the company.
> 3) That doesnt make sense. You still compensate with money, not lavish trips away from peoples families. If they make bonus's and commission..then pay them bigger bonus's and commission


2. I agree. Never been for it. Too big a risk vs reward. Drunken antics yes. 
3. Don't forget I had the option of going.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Well it's been a few days now since she had the talk with her boss and we are doing great. 
I found the ability to back off the pressure of her late hours.
I haven't felt the anxiety at all. She tells me about any conversations they have
which isn't much. I guess they had a talk today about all that again and she says she feels better
but I don't know the details yet, she is on the way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Those details were just her telling him everything is good. She has improved in her management roles and it's giving her confidence. 

Update on the "event on the sunday" or "staff only". 
Boss went around to the people that didn't sign up to make sure they hadn't changed their mind. W told him no and he asked why so she told him we had planned to go together and he said then he should come too. He ended up buying my ticket. Although I'm going I hope other spouses come too not just me. Be a little uncomfortable but hey I complained and this is the result so I can't say much.

Another challenging situation came up last night.

W told me he told her hey we have a retreat to go to in May. She asked who, he said all of the managers of the sister co. and you and I. He didn't know any details as of yet. She had such a hard time telling me, afraid. It kinda ruined our evening. Not fighting but we both felt down. He told it like there was no choice. Of course I take it to the extreme when I think about it. It being all weekend, two night stay far away. I mean there is a chance spouses could go and it could be just an evening close by. I told her that I had to prepare myself for the worse case. It just sucks. It will never end though. 

The movies started playing in my head already. At these events like this she is at the mercy of the group she is with.


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## happi_g_more2 (Jan 27, 2014)

I had thought the other night about this situation (as you know, ive had similar struggles). Anyway, I was thinking in your case, maybe you guys could plan your vacations around this. If she is going away for a weekend, have her boss fly her out a day early (you buy your own ticket) and then stay a couple days after the event. You are there all the time with her, and you guys get to vacation partially on his dime. Best of both worlds


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Okay, cjl, enough of this shyt. Money, partner, big salary, part owner or no, your W has to leave this job.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

happi_g_more2 said:


> I had thought the other night about this situation (as you know, ive had similar struggles). Anyway, I was thinking in your case, maybe you guys could plan your vacations around this. If she is going away for a weekend, have her boss fly her out a day early (you buy your own ticket) and then stay a couple days after the event. You are there all the time with her, and you guys get to vacation partially on his dime. Best of both worlds


It's a good idea for some but to go to all of them, I just can't do. For this one she still doesn't know any details so hard to plan for me.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

F-102 said:


> Okay, cjl, enough of this shyt. Money, partner, big salary, part owner or no, your W has to leave this job.


Would be nice. What I am hoping is that it gets to the point that she says, this isn't right anymore. I'm being too pressured into being married to the job too much. 

I am looking hard into doing something in the evenings besides the gym. Not being home as much. Just being busy with my stuff. I think once that starts going it will make it harder to be married to that job.


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## SailBadTheSinner (Apr 7, 2014)

Every community has a host of volunteer opportunities. United Way, Cancer Society, college or university groups, Traumatic Intervention Program, work with military if there's a post nearby. And, of course there's church volunteering.

Your wife reminds me of the old song: "You always hurt the one you love," and she is a classic of the psychological type that does things--goes overboard--for friends, coworkers and strangers but neglects home, hearth and hubby. They get off on the attention and accolades. You sir are safe and your accolades are discounted.

Decide if you want to live like this, being disrespected, discounted and diminished. If you don't, it's ultimatum time. And then carry through. Tell her she is about to lose the star player on her "team."


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I was thinking that you staying at home, forlornly staring off at her going isn't going to help the situation. Whether you like it or not, she's going, and sulking about it won't endear you to her in any way. Obviously it's not a great way to run a company but if she's taking over from him, I think she could change that.

I didn't think much of the holidays her boss is insisting on but now even mentioning a compulsory trip is ruining a whole evening for you both; she's scared to bring it up with you as well; you're imagining all sorts of things which just sounds a bit insecure really. My DH just left for a 4 day trip away. I'm not sitting here imagining all the things he could get up to, rather, I'm happy to trust that he wouldn't.

You went over it all with her. She knows your boundaries. Continuing to have all this angst is not about her after a certain point, it's about you.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

breeze - she has shown poor choice in boundaries. that is the issue.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

breeze said:


> I was thinking that you staying at home, forlornly staring off at her going isn't going to help the situation. Whether you like it or not, she's going, and sulking about it won't endear you to her in any way. Obviously it's not a great way to run a company but if she's taking over from him, I think she could change that.
> 
> I didn't think much of the holidays her boss is insisting on but now even mentioning a compulsory trip is ruining a whole evening for you both; she's scared to bring it up with you as well; you're imagining all sorts of things which just sounds a bit insecure really. My DH just left for a 4 day trip away. I'm not sitting here imagining all the things he could get up to, rather, I'm happy to trust that he wouldn't.
> 
> You went over it all with her. She knows your boundaries. Continuing to have all this angst is not about her after a certain point, it's about you.


Yes, it won't help the situation if I keep *****ing about it. Her hands are tied. If she wasn't management she would be quitting, we both agreed to that. I feel I am over it now. 

She found out yesterday the details. It's a one night stay about two hours away. Back the next afternoon. Yes it is the first test for us since "the trip". I have to trust her now. 
Yes Dave she did step on some boundaries in the past but we have more than discussed them. It is the reason it's hard for me at times now but I guess I have to man up and let her prove herself to me. Give her the chance to prove she cares about my feelings now.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

i think you are doing the best you can cjl. I wish you peace and happiness and less stress....


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

I hope she cuts down the hours for the long term also.
Sounds for now like you two will be alright.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

naiveonedave said:


> i think you are doing the best you can cjl. I wish you peace and happiness and less stress....


Thanks, you as well.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

tom67 said:


> I hope she cuts down the hours for the long term also.
> Sounds for now like you two will be alright.


The hours have been not bad. She is learning that it's okay to leave with unfinished work. She always text me if she is later than normal. Her effort has been really good.

We will be alright, I know that. This is my counseling to some degree, TAM. It helps me express what I'm feeling. I always had a problem with that and now I'm doing it here and with my wife. 

I also keep posting to help others. I know many others may be experiencing the same issues and to hear how I'm feeling and dealing with them may help someone else, even if they never say so.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Well it's been about 3 weeks now. Things have been fine. Some of the lovey dovey edge is gone. Don't know why exactly but all is still pretty good. 
We are still learning as new challenges present themselves.

I got news of a friend passing away on Friday. Friend as in 15 years ago and haven't stayed in touch very much since. Maybe seen him a couple times. You may ask what does this have anything to do with TAM? 

Well the weekend I felt off, down I guess. W asked what was wrong, am I upset at her. I told her no. I didn't realize until Monday morning that it was my friends passing that had me down. I quickly ordered flowers to be sent as I can't go to the service being so far away and then emailed W. I said "I sent flowers and I'm thinking that is what I was feeling over the weekend I just couldn't put my finger on it before today". What do you think? 

She replied a couple hours later, "I'm very busy today". 

I didn't hear from her until a text at 6:20pm saying she was staying later and probably the next two days as well. (month end)

Made me angry. 
Am I wrong that I was trying to deal with a loss and waited a few days to reach out to her? I had told her the news Friday pm. At that time I didn't know how I felt about it. I'm a thinker. 

Does anyone deal with these things the same way? 

I felt she just threw up her hand at me and said I don't care about you today, my work is more important. 
Now it may be wrong but from Mon pm I shut down on her. Closed shop so to speak. I haven't reached out to her much. Say hi and bye I love you. 
Am I just a big p*** and need to get over it?


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

She may have been busy but not busy enough to offer a few words of comfort. A minute or two of her time.

I'd be a tad upset as well.


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## happi_g_more2 (Jan 27, 2014)

I'm very busy today = 4 words

Sorry, I love you = 4 words

Seems she could have chosen a ton of 4 word combinations that would have shown she cares about you.

You are not a d1ck for feeling that way. You are a d1ck for "shutting down" rather then talking to her about it. I found with my wife, in these types of situations, telling her is best. but not in a "boohoo, you hurt my feelings kind of a way". I would have just replied to her email with whatever short, sarcastic comment you have in your toolbelt. I probably would have gone with something like "thanks, I feel better now..you really have a way with words". 

Last but not least. Short of her profession being a surgeon (which we know she isnt) everyone has some time to spare for their spouse.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

happi_g_more2 said:


> I'm very busy today = 4 words
> 
> Sorry, I love you = 4 words
> 
> ...



I wanted to and almost did. Still can and think I will. It just made me upset so I pushed it aside. But yes, I should have pointed it out.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

It seems to me that she's able to fake caring for you for a while but can't maintain the effort over the long haul.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

After I thought more about this today, could it be that I was testing her like I have read on here?


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Wow what a year. Since the first of the year it seems my marriage is in 3D. Everything is so up in my face and punching me sometimes. 
I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone. 

Has anyone gone through anything in their marriage and felt this way? 

When we were just coasting through it seemed effortless. Of course we weren't as close. Now that we are trying to stay in tune it seems like work for me, maybe both. It sometimes feels as though our marriage is being attacked more than ever before with different circumstances.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

cjl:

some reading this thread might be a little confused since you start out with "wife, boss ,trip....."

just to be clear what I remember is that:

-- your wife did not cheat on you with the boss

-- did not even rise to the level of "emotional affair"

but the boss/wife crossed some boundaries on the trip (him and your wife getting massages together) and at other times. but you do not believe she feels or has felt anything romanatic for him. still true? do you think he feels anything for her?


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

nuclearnightmare said:


> cjl:
> 
> some reading this thread might be a little confused since you start out with "wife, boss ,trip....."
> 
> ...


That's right, she did not. 

Not at other times, only once. 

No feelings for each other, no.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

cjl said:


> Wow what a year. Since the first of the year it seems my marriage is in 3D. Everything is so up in my face and punching me sometimes.
> I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone.
> 
> Has anyone gone through anything in their marriage and felt this way?
> ...


You had a bit of a scare with the whole boss thing and are both now hypersensitive to real or perceived possible threats to matrimonial harmony. As long as you stay in touch with one another this will calm down.

Did your W ever give you better words of sympathy on the passing of your friend?


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Philat said:


> You had a bit of a scare with the whole boss thing and are both now hypersensitive to real or perceived possible threats to matrimonial harmony. As long as you stay in touch with one another this will calm down.
> 
> Did your W ever give you better words of sympathy on the passing of your friend?


She apologized about the email saying she should have been more supportive.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

cjl said:


> She apologized about the email saying she should have been more supportive.


This is good, right?


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Philat said:


> This is good, right?


Of course.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Cjl. Other than keep your eyes open. You are fine.

Note eyes open means simply looking for red flags and not discounting them. It does not mean any of the var gps spy stuff.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

RClawson said:


> cjl,
> 
> I have spent the greater portion of my professional life in the employment sector, placing candidates, counseling them, helping others become entrepreneur's etc. Your W needs to find a good headhunter and leave this place.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

OP, you can hold each other hostage in your own set of confinements, but it will end bad anyway, see the above.

Make sure the finances are brought to a good end as good as possible, but let them not be a priority.

She needs to get out of being co-dependent of her boss, or any boss or figure like them.

You still need to think of your boundaries, and place them upright in your life, and next in your marriage.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

See_Listen_Love said:


> :iagree:
> 
> OP, you can hold each other hostage in your own set of confinements, but it will end bad anyway, see the above.
> 
> ...



If my story was someone else's on here I would think this too, probably. 
I disagree with it though. I do not think he is sleeping with someone or would with my W if he had the chance. A "God"
mentality, yes.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

What a year so far!

When I first posted here my 18 year old step daughter was living with her bf. We would see her maybe once a week. My W and I was starting to really have a great marriage. Well step d. moved back home after breaking up with her bf some time in March. Some may say, so what. 

Well it changed things with us. In the last month she has a new bf. I had a topic about her wanting him to live with us. He doesn't, W stood firm on what I wanted. But see when I was asked about this they were not dating. A week later they are. Is over all the time until late now. 

I guess my gut feel on that was right. 

Step d is home a lot more now but with new bf. 
Bottom line is this. 

She does nothing to help, everywhere she goes in the house she leaves a mess, I was forced to let her bring her cat into our house from the bf's house, (I DID NOT want anymore pets), cat was in heat a couple of times, (she has no money), does not look after the cat like she should, cat is on everything in the kitchen getting hair everywhere. 

I should say that I'm not a perfectionist. I like to come home to a somewhat clean house, especially kitchen. 

She uses dishes but don't clean, leaves them in her room forever, uses at least 2 towels a day but doesn't do laundry, bathroom stays filthy now. 

We pay her car insurance and phone bill now. (going into the 3rd month for this) She has a very part time job. Parties on the weekend, (i don't know how with little money) sits in front of the tv until time to pick up bf then they both come sit in front of it. Oh and now she has no problem smoking in front of us outside. (cigarettes are free I guess) In and out late at night slamming the front door while we are trying to sleep. I'm a light sleeper. 

I ended up telling my W Saturday that i won't be happy until she takes her cat and moves out. That we won't be back like it was until then. 

All the while during all this my W has started being late again from work. I get to come home to all this. 

Friday was the topper. I came home and her cat had gone #2 in our bedroom. I checked the litter box, sure enough it was very dirty. 
I can't live like this. I can't. 

I'm venting about all these petty things but it irritates the hell out of me. 

I understand there is not much I or us can do. i told my W that.

Everyone reading this will say just put the foot down and lay down the rules. It won't work. She might try for a day or two but then it's back. 

Do I just sit back and say nothing? It's affecting our marriage though.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

cjl said:


> She does nothing to help, everywhere she goes in the house she leaves a mess, I was forced to let her bring her cat into our house from the bf's house, (I DID NOT want anymore pets), cat was in heat a couple of times, (she has no money), does not look after the cat like she should, cat is on everything in the kitchen getting hair everywhere.


"Daughter, either you leave or the cat does. Both is also fine, you're an adult."



cjl said:


> She uses dishes but don't clean, leaves them in her room forever, uses at least 2 towels a day but doesn't do laundry, bathroom stays filthy now.


Bring in a maid, give her the bill.



cjl said:


> We pay her car insurance and phone bill now. (going into the 3rd month for this) She has a very part time job. Parties on the weekend, (i don't know how with little money) sits in front of the tv until time to pick up bf then they both come sit in front of it. Oh and now she has no problem smoking in front of us outside. (cigarettes are free I guess) In and out late at night slamming the front door while we are trying to sleep. I'm a light sleeper.


Are you insane? Sorry, not trying to insult you, but why the hell would you pay her bills?

Stop. It.

You're actually hurting her by not forcing her to grow up and be independent. She requires neither a car nor a phone.



cjl said:


> I ended up telling my W Saturday that i won't be happy until she takes her cat and moves out. That we won't be back like it was until then.


Good.


cjl said:


> All the while during all this my W has started being late again from work. I get to come home to all this.


"Wife, you have some hard decisions to make."


cjl said:


> Friday was the topper. I came home and her cat had gone #2 in our bedroom. I checked the litter box, sure enough it was very dirty.


See point #1. Daughter, either you AND the cat are gone, or the cat is gone.

I will call the SPCA and get this dealt with by the end of the week.



cjl said:


> I can't live like this. I can't.


So don't.


cjl said:


> Everyone reading this will say just put the foot down and lay down the rules. It won't work. She might try for a day or two but then it's back.
> 
> Do I just sit back and say nothing? It's affecting our marriage though.


Teenagers grow up because they have to, not because they want to.

My stepdad when I turned 18 and was being a total wingbat:

"Son, there's a great big world out there and you're welcome to it. But you're not living here any more."

He helped me move out, made sure I never starved, and guided me as best he could. He wasn't a **** about it, and didn't even discuss it with my mom.

It hurt at the time, but a few years ago I realized it was the best thing he ever did for me and I thanked him for it.


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

marduk said:


> "Daughter, either you leave or the cat does. Both is also fine, you're an adult."
> 
> 
> Bring in a maid, give her the bill.
> ...



Thanks for your replies.
I understand what you are saying but I feel like my hands are tied. My W will not be that harsh to her youngest kid. To me it's not harsh but to W it would be.


----------



## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Do you see a pattern there? That she can't look at something from your point of view? That she can't understand how serious you see something?


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Malaise said:


> Do you see a pattern there? That she can't look at something from your point of view? That she can't understand how serious you see something?



Yes I do.

Am I being the ass of a step father?


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Of course not. Your W is being a terrible parent. 

Coming home late again? Remember what Weightlifter said about eyes open.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Philat said:


> Of course not. Your W is being a terrible parent.
> 
> Coming home late again? Remember what Weightlifter said about eyes open.



Sure do. Wide open.


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

I hate to mention this but I want to be honest about what's been going on.

So the sister co. invited W and the boss on an outing Fri evening to Sat mid morning. All of sister co. employees invited but just the W and boss from their co.. Bus picks up everyone at work drives 1 1/2 to hotel. Do the anouncements, drinks, dinner and then a talent show. W and boss was asked to be the judges. Then a breakfast next morning and be taken back to work. W rides the bus with most everyone, boss decides to drive. W rides back with him. Also, there was lots of drinking and dancing after the talent show. She decided to leave and go back to her room. Was 11:30 anyway. Calls me. The ride back though. She knew it wasn't right with our history. 
She apologized and I said don't, you knew it was crossing a boundary. Said most everyone rode with someone in their vehicle. 

You know I understand they were the only two from her company, she didn't know others well, at the time they were also having big problems back in the office so they discussed this she said, also he might say hey ride back with me so we can talk about what we are going to do with this problem. She didn't say this but looking at the situation I can assume this. 

I just hate how my life is going right now. I'm thankful for my health, job and my kids but everything else is really difficult.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

The thing is this. She knows what made you upset last time, this same type of behavior. And she puts herself in the same position again.

Either she:

Doesn't see how you see this.

Or, doesn't care.

I made a point in your previous thread. Does she not have the kind of relationship with her boss where she can explain things to him?

Or, is she too timid? What's more important to her? Job or marriage?


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Malaise said:


> The thing is this. She knows what made you upset last time, this same type of behavior. And she puts herself in the same position again.
> 
> Either she:
> 
> ...



Yes she did get into this situation again. 
She said she did understand how I see it but she must not at the time. I don't know. She does care I think maybe not enough.

I have asked her the same question about her relationship with him. She is afraid it will show weakness to him basically or that she can't handle it.


----------



## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

cjl said:


> Yes she did get into this situation again.
> She said she did understand how I see it but she must not at the time. I don't know. She does care I think maybe not enough.
> 
> I* have asked her the same question about her relationship with him. She is afraid it will show weakness to him basically or that she can't handle it*.


In other words, job over marriage.


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Malaise said:


> In other words, job over marriage.


When you step back and take a look, yes.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Malaise said:


> In other words, job over marriage.


:iagree:

wow I thought you guys were making progress.
Sorry.


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

tom67 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> wow I thought you guys were making progress.
> Sorry.



We were.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

cjl said:


> We were.


No you weren't. She was humoring you.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Sadly I have to agree with nicking...you and the marriage has taken second place...tell did you ever speak with the boss wife?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Xenote said:


> Sadly I have to agree with nicking...you and the marriage has taken second place...tell did you ever speak with the boss wife?


I think this would be a good idea I mean at this point why not.:scratchhead:


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Here is why not.
Yes I would like things to change but I do not have a valid reason to make myself look like a bigger idiot. If there had been some boundary crossing as in personal talk or physical touch then I would have no problem talking to his wife but first I would talk to him. I'm a bigger man than to skip over him to his wife. I would then be just as disrespectful as the other.

Even before that I would let my W know what I'm thinking about doing. To give her the opportunity to be the adult and take care of her work business on her own. Has she shown she is capable of doing this? Not so much. If I were to take action though I take steps backward in my marriage and damage her career. Am I putting her career ahead of me? Maybe


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

And at this point anyway, cjl, your issue is with your W, not the boss.


----------



## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

cjl said:


> Here is why not.
> Yes I would like things to change but I do not have a valid reason to make myself look like a bigger idiot. If there had been some boundary crossing as in personal talk or physical touch then I would have no problem talking to his wife but first I would talk to him. I'm a bigger man than to skip over him to his wife. I would then be just as disrespectful as the other.
> 
> Even before that I would let my W know what I'm thinking about doing. To give her the opportunity to be the adult and take care of her work business on her own. Has she shown she is capable of doing this? Not so much. If I were to take action though I take steps backward in my marriage and damage her career. *Am I putting her career ahead of me? Maybe*


I don't see it that way. 

I see her as doing so, and you allowing it. There's a difference. You're being passive about it, even though you've expressed your concerns.

You aren't standing there urging her to work long hours, to be inappropriate with her boss as to not rock the boat.

You want her to be happy in her job but you're making yourself miserable doing so. Is it worth it to you? It seems to be worth it to her. And there's the rub. She'll sacrifice your marriage, it seems, on the altar of her success.

And, that's besides the issue with her daughter. You are after her on the priority list. Am I wrong?

And one more thing concerning the last trip. I'm not calling her a liar, or saying she's cheating. But, all you know concerning any of this comes from her. About what goes on in a hotel overnight.


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Malaise said:


> I don't see it that way.
> 
> I see her as doing so, and you allowing it. There's a difference. You're being passive about it, even though you've expressed your concerns.
> 
> ...


It does make me miserable at times as all of you know. I don't know if it's worth it or not. Sometimes it is sometimes not. It knocks me down but then the next day I get up brush myself off and carry on like a big boy. 

I do feel like I'm after the daughter on the priority list. Have felt that way for 14 years. She says maybe I made it that way. I disagree mostly. 

About the last trip you are right. I have thought about this the last couple of days. All I have is what she tells me. This point is where all of you that have been burned will tell me how my eyes are not open. What should I do then? Ask more questions?

All I know is that she had her own room. She was one of the few to leave the party in the meeting room early to talk to me and go to sleep. For dinner and breakfast she did sit with the boss and a number of other people at the table. They only talked business on the ride back. Not sure if I completely buy that one.


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Philat said:


> And at this point anyway, cjl, your issue is with your W, not the boss.



Exactly.


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

cjl just a reminder.
You can't control her but you can control what you will or will not put up with.
Just saying.


----------



## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

cjl said:


> I hate to mention this but I want to be honest about what's been going on.
> 
> So the sister co. invited W and the boss on an outing Fri evening to Sat mid morning. All of sister co. employees invited but just the W and boss from their co.. Bus picks up everyone at work drives 1 1/2 to hotel. Do the anouncements, drinks, dinner and then a talent show. W and boss was asked to be the judges. Then a breakfast next morning and be taken back to work. W rides the bus with most everyone, boss decides to drive. W rides back with him. Also, there was lots of drinking and dancing after the talent show. She decided to leave and go back to her room. Was 11:30 anyway. Calls me. The ride back though. She knew it wasn't right with our history.
> She apologized and I said don't, you knew it was crossing a boundary. Said most everyone rode with someone in their vehicle.
> ...


Break this down for us. 

How much notice were you given about the event?
How far is the sister co. located from your W comp? 
Have you confirmed that your W did take the bus to the event?


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Tobyboy said:


> Break this down for us.
> 
> How much notice were you given about the event?
> How far is the sister co. located from your W comp?
> Have you confirmed that your W did take the bus to the event?


At this point the general lack of respect would have me detaching big time.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Next time she has one of these "work" trips spend the weekend away at a resort and go golfing or whatever.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

tom67 said:


> At this point the general lack of respect would have me detaching big time.


That's cool!

For me.....I don't do detaching. Clean break(once I have all the facts) is more my style. Detaching, to me, seems like self imposed limbo....not how I want to live.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Tobyboy said:


> That's cool!
> 
> For me.....I don't do detaching. Clean break(once I have all the facts) is more my style. Detaching, to me, seems like self imposed limbo....not how I want to live.


That would be me also.
I think cjl may reach the point where this gets old fast.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

tom67 said:


> That would be me also.
> I think cjl may reach the point where this gets old fast.


It's been going on too long for it to get old "fast". I'm not sure it's going to get old enough to rock cjl off the default setting of "take anything she dishes out" to the "I don't deserve to be treated like this" setting.

I'm guessing that her hierarchy goes like this:

Boss
Daughter
Cat
Friends
Cjl

I'm not completely sure about the first four places in the list. They might be in a slightly different order.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Nucking Futs said:


> It's been going on too long for it to get old "fast". I'm not sure it's going to get old enough to rock cjl off the default setting of "take anything she dishes out" to the "I don't deserve to be treated like this" setting.
> 
> I'm guessing that her hierarchy goes like this:
> 
> ...


Fixed it for you!


----------



## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Cjl

These are all friendly 2x4s for you, although it may not seem that way.

Many of us have been disrespected as well, some worse. 

I have a problem with her staying overnight away from you. Given the way she seems to regard you in her hierarchy.

I don't know how you get the 'truth' if you haven't gotten it already. Maybe you have the truth. It's the doubt that kills you.


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Tobyboy said:


> Break this down for us.
> 
> How much notice were you given about the event?
> How far is the sister co. located from your W comp?
> Have you confirmed that your W did take the bus to the event?



6 weeks notice. 
they are floor 1 and 2 from each other.
she told me about a lady she sat with met for the first time and about an entertainer they hired. Lies? doubt it.


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> It's been going on too long for it to get old "fast". I'm not sure it's going to get old enough to rock cjl off the default setting of "take anything she dishes out" to the "I don't deserve to be treated like this" setting.
> 
> I'm guessing that her hierarchy goes like this:
> 
> ...


OMG after the cat. lol 
I'm in trouble.


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Malaise said:


> Cjl
> 
> These are all friendly 2x4s for you, although it may not seem that way.
> 
> ...



She wasn't too thrilled with the results of the trip. As in she didn't need to be there. Decided she won't go again but I heard that before.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

cjl, remember that you don't "know" anything about what went on. You have your W's version and your degree of faith in its truthfulness. Just sayin'.

Also, what's up with these companies she's associated with? They have no clue as to appropriateness when it comes to employee events. Overnight with lots of drinking and dancing? WTF, especially if spouses weren't invited.


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Philat said:


> cjl, remember that you don't "know" anything about what went on. You have your W's version and your degree of faith in its truthfulness. Just sayin'.
> 
> Also, what's up with these companies she's associated with? They have no clue as to appropriateness when it comes to employee events. Overnight with lots of drinking and dancing? WTF, especially if spouses weren't invited.


I have no clue. Several females had already went beyond appropriateness before they even had dinner she said. Who knows what happened after she went to her room.


----------



## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

More red flags again cjl. You are either being cheated on or treated like your feelings don't count. Not a good place. I wish you the best.


----------



## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> More red flags again cjl. You are either being cheated on or treated like your feelings don't count. Not a good place. I wish you the best.


I have to agree with naiveonedave. This is getting ridiculous.
It might be time for a PI. Get the truth!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Doing a bit of logistics.

1). Define more specifically what these other women did?
2). How common are the above acts at said event?
3). Define the relationship between her company and this event.

I dont see PI time yet. Var at most but im trying to wrap my head around this.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

cjl said:


> Thanks for your replies.
> I understand what you are saying but I feel like my hands are tied. My W will not be that harsh to her youngest kid. To me it's not harsh but to W it would be.


Is it your house?

This is a conversation I recommend you have with the SD yourself.

Your wife will likely get angry for it, but will increase in respect for you if you do it firmly, gently, and without drama.


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

naiveonedave said:


> More red flags again cjl. You are either being cheated on or treated like your feelings don't count. Not a good place. I wish you the best.


Trust me, I'm not being cheated on for the last time.
Yes my feelings may be at stake sometimes.


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

weightlifter said:


> Doing a bit of logistics.
> 
> 1). Define more specifically what these other women did?
> 2). How common are the above acts at said event?
> ...


I agree with WL VAR in the car maybe even a pen VAR.
And yes more specifics on what the women did if you could.:scratchhead:


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

There may not be cheating but the level of disrespect and you just being an after thought is disgusting imo.


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Tobyboy said:


> I have to agree with naiveonedave. This is getting ridiculous.
> It might be time for a PI. Get the truth!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A PI? Give me a break. 

The truth is she is trying to make her boss happy and me as well. Sometimes failing at both. I failed to say no from the beginning. We discussed this career move and I was in. Maybe a mistake now. Can I say "hey just kidding I don't like it?" I could but then I think it causes more problems than what there is now. 

I was concerned in Jan that maybe there was the beginning of a EA. It may have been but it has long been nipped in the ass. 

So you may say why the hell are you here then? To vent and just hear others opinions.


----------



## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

cjl said:


> A PI? Give me a break.
> 
> *The truth is she is trying to make her boss happy and me as well. Sometimes failing at both*. I failed to say no from the beginning. We discussed this career move and I was in. Maybe a mistake now. Can I say "hey just kidding I don't like it?" I could but then I think it causes more problems than what there is now.
> 
> ...


She's married to you, not her boss or the job. Jobs come and go.
We know that marriages fail, but a spouse is supposed to be for a lifetime.

If she's failing, sometimes, at both, she should devote herself to one , the marriage, before the other. As I said, jobs come and go.

She's juggling chainsaws here. Someone's gonna get hurt.


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

weightlifter said:


> Doing a bit of logistics.
> 
> 1). Define more specifically what these other women did?
> 2). How common are the above acts at said event?
> ...


1. Too much to drink. Loud.
2. I don't know how common they are, it was her first time involved with the other company. She wasn't thrilled about it though.
3. The two companies work together and are invited to each others events. It was suppose to be a team building trip. Ha. All that went had to participate in a talent show. Work as teams so I guess it was to an extent. Riding the bus together blah blah.


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Malaise said:


> She's married to you, not her boss or the job. Jobs come and go.
> We know that marriages fail, but a spouse is supposed to be for a lifetime.
> 
> If she's failing, sometimes, at both, she should devote herself to one , the marriage, before the other. As I said, jobs come and go.
> ...



I hear you. Don't get me wrong I'm not here to argue with anyone here about something they have experience with or something close. 
If it was just a job it would be easy but it's not. It's a one in a lifetime shot career. There is no way she would have a shot at vp at any other company. The company is only 5 years old. It's new, the boss is new at running it, she is new at vp, new to how she should balance it all and I'm new at how to handle it.


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

cjl said:


> I hear you. Don't get me wrong I'm not here to argue with anyone here about something they have experience with or something close.
> If it was just a job it would be easy but it's not. It's a one in a lifetime shot career. There is no way she would have a shot at vp at any other company. The company is only 5 years old. It's new, the boss is new at running it, she is new at vp, new to how she should balance it all and I'm new at how to handle it.


What good is a once in a lifetime job if she ends up alone?
Eh just throwing it out there.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

And it sounds like this company and its sister are new to the whole employee relations business. Who plans these "team-building" events--the local fraternity? 

I'm serious. This is 30+ years experience with both gov't and private sector talking: These events are BS.


----------



## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

CJL - I could not tolerate the level of disrespect you are. If you are sure she is not cheating, fine, but that level of disrespect for your opionons and feelings is just about as bad.


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Philat said:


> And it sounds like this company and its sister are new to the whole employee relations business. Who plans these "team-building" events--the local fraternity?
> 
> I'm serious. This is 30+ years experience with both gov't and private sector talking: These events are BS.


I hear you and agree. She is seeing the light now too. We will see what happens the next opportunity.


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

naiveonedave said:


> CJL - I could not tolerate the level of disrespect you are. If you are sure she is not cheating, fine, but that level of disrespect for your opionons and feelings is just about as bad.


I'm going to gnaw on your comment for a bit. I'll respond later.


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

cjl said:


> OMG after the cat. lol
> I'm in trouble.


The cat shows the most disrespect from all...

But CJL, 

The pattern is the same in all cases, and its your pattern.

See my avatar for what I think I should do in life, but that incorporates none of the things you put up with.

Loving does not mean letting walk all over you.


----------



## HomeFrontDadAndMore (Sep 12, 2013)

See_Listen_Love;8948746[B said:


> ]Loving does not mean letting walk all over you[/B].


I so agree SLL. 

OP, we share a bit in common with career driven W's: We want W to succeed to help make her happy (though money is really NOT a requirement) and we strive to take off burdens and stress that detract from their life... but, I was wrong. It wasn't their life but 'ours' and being a resentful door mat did nothing. I find that consistently setting the boundaries in a loving but firm way the hardest thing to do.

But, in reading your thread (and I'm unaware what lead to MC) it does seem that your wife confides the details of her work to you and that is a great thing.


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

HomeFrontDadAndMore said:


> I so agree SLL.
> 
> OP, we share a bit in common with career driven W's: We want W to succeed to help make her happy (though money is really NOT a requirement) and we strive to take off burdens and stress that detract from their life... but, I was wrong. It wasn't their life but 'ours' and being a resentful door mat did nothing. I find that consistently setting the boundaries in a loving but firm way the hardest thing to do.
> 
> But, in reading your thread (and I'm unaware what lead to MC) it does seem that your wife confides the details of her work to you and that is a great thing.


Where is your situation at now?


----------



## HomeFrontDadAndMore (Sep 12, 2013)

cjl said:


> Where is your situation at now?


I set the boundaries yet one more time (3rd in 2 years?). I might have a little too emotional but I was clear and she understood I was very serious.

In response, she cancelled business trips, started coming home at a reasonable/consistent time during the week and is (in general) more 'here' when at home. I'd say, it was a better response than in past 'talks' and so far the better behavior has lasted about a month. The trick here, is for me to stay on top of it... it is easy to fall back to old ways.


----------



## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

HomeFrontDadAndMore said:


> I set the boundaries yet one more time (3rd in 2 years?). I might have a little too emotional but I was clear and she understood I was very serious.
> 
> In response, she cancelled business trips, started coming home at a reasonable/consistent time during the week and is (in general) more 'here' when at home. I'd say, it was a better response than in past 'talks' and so far the better behavior has lasted about a month. The trick here, is for me to stay on top of it... it is easy to fall back to old ways.


Interesting.

If you don't mind me asking, what were the boundaries in all 3 cases?


----------



## HomeFrontDadAndMore (Sep 12, 2013)

cjl said:


> Interesting.
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, what were the boundaries in all 3 cases?


1) No work at the dinner table or in bed. Set last year and pretty well has worked out. When she breaks it I kindly excuse myself from the situation (it hasn't happened since last year).
2) Home at a predictable hour (preferably for dinner) or she fixes it herself - this one is the toughest as she'll email or call a few minutes before the 'cut off' and I soften - It's gotten better but I need to do better at enforcement.
3) Call home when traveling or at least email (and more than a couple words). This has been an ongoing problem over the last few years and was the tipping point on a last trip. A poster in my thread said she acted single and that is exactly it. I no longer accept the "tired, didn't know what time it was there, phone didn't work" excuses... We have yet to test this one since the last trip but she knows I won't be here when she gets home if it happens one more time.
4) New... Now that I believe alcohol may part of the problem: No drinking unless with me. Yup, hard to enforce and I'm not her daddy....


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

cjl said:


> The truth is she is trying to make her boss happy and me as well. Sometimes failing at both.


Can you point to me where she is actually trying to make you happy? I don't mean her saying what you want to here. I mean where she puts what you want above herself, her boss, her daughter and the cat.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

HomeFrontDadAndMore said:


> 1) No work at the dinner table or in bed. Set last year and pretty well has worked out. When she breaks it I kindly excuse myself from the situation (it hasn't happened since last year).
> 2) Home at a predictable hour (preferably for dinner) or she fixes it herself - this one is the toughest as she'll email or call a few minutes before the 'cut off' and I soften - It's gotten better but I need to do better at enforcement.
> 3) Call home when traveling or at least email (and more than a couple words). This has been an ongoing problem over the last few years and was the tipping point on a last trip. A poster in my thread said she acted single and that is exactly it. I no longer accept the "tired, didn't know what time it was there, phone didn't work" excuses... We have yet to test this one since the last trip but she knows I won't be here when she gets home if it happens one more time.
> 4) New... Now that I believe alcohol may part of the problem: No drinking unless with me. Yup, hard to enforce and I'm not her daddy....




You and I do share the same problem with our wives. 

1. For mine this is a work in progress. She is always on call but has handed over forwarding emails until close. (8pm). 

2.This one is still all over the place. I use to try to wait until I knew she was on the way before I started supper. Then since the daughter has been around more I had a @#$% it attitude. 
Now I make it when I want and eat. 

3. Have experienced the "acting single" routine. But this last trip was the opposite. She texted and called many times. More than I wanted actually. 

4. Mine made the rule she would not drink on the trips. I have not asked about the last one and she didn't volunteer it. I will be asking soon. My bad. 
She is not to dance but again I didn't ask if she did. I'm failing at some of my boundaries.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Alright a bit overdone, if it was just drinking and loud. I've seen kissing dares etc at this sh!t. I was thinking "PA light" activities. Turns out its just stupid.

Bad but not as toxic as I thought. Still, eyes open.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

naiveonedave said:


> CJL - I could not tolerate the level of disrespect you are. If you are sure she is not cheating, fine, but that level of disrespect for your opionons and feelings is just about as bad.





Tall Average Guy said:


> Can you point to me where she is actually trying to make you happy? I don't mean her saying what you want to here. I mean where she puts what you want above herself, her boss, her daughter and the cat.


I can't tell you how much I have been pondering these since yesterday. I'm going back even years to evaluate this. I'm still sorting it all out in my head. I should start writing some thoughts down. 
Then I have to decide what to do about it.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

weightlifter said:


> Alright a bit overdone, if it was just drinking and loud. I've seen kissing dares etc at this sh!t. I was thinking "PA light" activities. Turns out its just stupid.
> 
> Bad but not as toxic as I thought. Still, eyes open.



Yes but who knows what happened after she went to her room early, it was only 11:30. Maybe there was more before that time, i will ask. There might be some rumors now if so.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

thats the thing CJL. You have boundaries, but no mechanism to verify or enforce them. Past behavior predicts future behavior, so you are rightfully concerned that your W could be up to no good. I think your gut is screaming it. I don't have any advice, but you are not in a good place.

however, I know I would not tolerate this. It would chew me up.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

naiveonedave said:


> thats the thing CJL. You have boundaries, but no mechanism to verify or enforce them. Past behavior predicts future behavior, so you are rightfully concerned that your W could be up to no good. I think your gut is screaming it. I don't have any advice, but you are not in a good place.
> 
> however, I know I would not tolerate this. It would chew me up.


:iagree:
I couldn't live like that always wondering.
But that is just me.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

naiveonedave said:


> thats the thing CJL. You have boundaries, but no mechanism to verify or enforce them. Past behavior predicts future behavior, so you are rightfully concerned that your W could be up to no good. I think your gut is screaming it. I don't have any advice, but you are not in a good place.
> 
> however, I know I would not tolerate this. It would chew me up.


Learned the hard way.

Trust but verify -- full transparency in marriage is best. For both parties.

Never set boundaries you can't enforce. Small or large.

For example, when my wife sits there texting when we're "spending time together" on the couch... I get up and leave if it goes past a minute or two, or goes past a text or two.

The biggest consequence I can give is a denial of ME.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

marduk said:


> Learned the hard way.
> 
> Trust but verify -- full transparency in marriage is best. For both parties.
> 
> ...



This is like what was mentioned before, no drinking without me. How can that be enforced? It's a big one with me too.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

the no drinking thing: don't let her carry much cash and then look at credit card receipts. Drinking, esp at bars isn't cheap. Even if she uses cash, you could track it for awhile.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

marduk said:


> Learned the hard way.
> 
> Trust but verify -- full transparency in marriage is best. For both parties.
> 
> ...



W staying late at work has been a problem but I have no consequence good enough. She would love it if I was out doing something. For one she would like me to do more and two it would take the pressure off of her and probably would do it more.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

naiveonedave said:


> the no drinking thing: don't let her carry much cash and then look at credit card receipts. Drinking, esp at bars isn't cheap. Even if she uses cash, you could track it for awhile.



As for work trips it won't have any effect as it's a company function, all drinks, food and entertainment is paid for.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

cjl said:


> W staying late at work has been a problem but I have no consequence good enough. She would love it if I was out doing something. For one she would like me to do more and two it would take the pressure off of her and probably would do it more.


Try stumbling in drunk and smelling like perfume at 4am.


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## HomeFrontDadAndMore (Sep 12, 2013)

cjl said:


> W staying late at work has been a problem but I have no consequence good enough. *She would love it if I was out doing something. For one she would like me to do more and two it would take the pressure off of her and probably would do it more*.


Isn't that the truth. It removes or lessens their 'guilt'. 

But don't think I'm advocating staying at home pining away either... I try getting out - and have - it helps distract ourselves and gives one distance. (My biggest problem is making certain our kids don't feel abandoned by both of us).


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> Try stumbling in drunk and smelling like perfume at 4am.


Put some lipstick on a shirt and she finds it in the hamper.


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## HomeFrontDadAndMore (Sep 12, 2013)

tom67 said:


> Put some lipstick on a shirt and she finds it in the hamper.


It does sound like a fun prank. And, NF - stumbling in drunk and perfumed would too... you beat me to that thought 

But, I'll guess OP's W would: a) suspect the setup and he'd come off looking pathetic [that would be my case] b) It'd succeed and W would use it against him despite evidence it was a prank.

Question for you OP: Has W ever insisted on buying something lavish "for you" [it's shared money like here I'm sure]... your thread made me recall that mine did not too long after my first big confrontation a couple years ago (after long, out of touch trip of hers...).

Lastly, thinking about getting out of the house: It's a must but the outings have to be honest and something you want to do otherwise, it'll seem artificial to W. More so, make them end early so she doesn't get "permission" to stay out even later...


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

HomeFrontDadAndMore said:


> I so agree SLL.
> 
> OP, we share a bit in common with career driven W's: We want W to succeed to help make her happy (though money is really NOT a requirement) and we strive to take off burdens and stress that detract from their life... but, I was wrong. It wasn't their life but 'ours' and being a resentful door mat did nothing. I find that consistently setting the boundaries in a loving but firm way the hardest thing to do.
> 
> But, in reading your thread (and I'm unaware what lead to MC) it does seem that your wife confides the details of her work to you and that is a great thing.


Slight t/j. 
HomeFront, in one of your earlier post you mention possible EA/PA, were these ever confirmed?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

cjl said:


> This is like what was mentioned before, no drinking without me. How can that be enforced? It's a big one with me too.


Wife, I'm not comfortable with you drinking without me because of X and Y.

If it happens again I do Z.

Where Z is:

a) I go do the same
b) I move out
c) lawyers 'n stuff

How big a deal breaker is this for you?


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

HomeFrontDadAndMore said:


> Isn't that the truth. It removes or lessens their 'guilt'.
> 
> But don't think I'm advocating staying at home pining away either... I try getting out - and have - it helps distract ourselves and gives one distance. (My biggest problem is making certain our kids don't feel abandoned by both of us).


I don't get out too much. Sometimes when she is really late I'll time it where I go for coffee when she gets home. I know it bothers her a little because she will immediately text me after she arrives and ask when I'm back. 
Lately I just go to the garage. Been finishing the inside so I can do woodworking. Needed electrical, insulation and drywall.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

HomeFrontDadAndMore said:


> It does sound like a fun prank. And, NF - stumbling in drunk and perfumed would too... you beat me to that thought
> 
> But, I'll guess OP's W would: a) suspect the setup and he'd come off looking pathetic [that would be my case] b) It'd succeed and W would use it against him despite evidence it was a prank.
> 
> ...


For me that would have been in January after her trip. No, I don't recall anything lavish for me but she was hell bent on getting her a new car. We had talked about it before but nothing serious. Her then current vehicle was getting up there in mileage. I was a little confused how dedicated she was on this at the time. Was it just to get her mind off the trip?


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

marduk said:


> Wife, I'm not comfortable with you drinking without me because of X and Y.
> 
> If it happens again I do Z.
> 
> ...


So we have this boundary but the consequence is only that it will hurt me if she does it. 

From your a) to b) is quite a change. Shouldn't there be something between the two? 

More than two drinks in an evening is a deal breaker for me. Up to that point I don't know really.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Does she know about the 2 drink limit? What does she think of it? Does she agree to it?

I really don't see how you can tell if she is following it, w/o a spy or a PI or something. Then what are your consequences? they have to be pretty harsh, I would think, to be effective. I think that is what Marduke is suggesting.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

naiveonedave said:


> Does she know about the 2 drink limit? What does she think of it? Does she agree to it?
> 
> I really don't see how you can tell if she is following it, w/o a spy or a PI or something. Then what are your consequences? they have to be pretty harsh, I would think, to be effective. I think that is what Marduke is suggesting.


That was my suggestion but she went a step more and said she won't drink at all without me. How can verify? I can't. Hire a PI every time she is out without me, no thank you. Not that big of a deal breaker.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

cjl said:


> So we have this boundary but the consequence is only that it will hurt me if she does it.
> 
> From your a) to b) is quite a change. Shouldn't there be something between the two?
> 
> More than two drinks in an evening is a deal breaker for me. Up to that point I don't know really.


I'm just throwing stuff out there.

What would be appropriate that would focus on the removal of the awesome person from her life that is you, and not on you whining or being a sad sack?

Like, what happens if you go out, get blasted, and come home in the wee hours of the morning?

Not saying that you are... but I tried that. Didn't work out.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

marduk said:


> I'm just throwing stuff out there.
> 
> What would be appropriate that would focus on the removal of the awesome person from her life that is you, and not on you whining or being a sad sack?
> 
> ...


I don't think she would mind if I did that unless it was often. I have never done that and do not want to. I'm not really a drinker. Doing this is not what I believe in. Not an option.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

cjl said:


> I don't think she would mind if I did that unless it was often. I have never done that and do not want to. I'm not really a drinker. Doing this is not what I believe in. Not an option.


Then go do something else.


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## HomeFrontDadAndMore (Sep 12, 2013)

Tobyboy said:


> Slight t/j.
> HomeFront, in one of your earlier post you mention possible EA/PA, were these ever confirmed?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nope - not a whisper - never really thought it'd be a real 'affair'. But like so many in the other thread - I think it is always a possibility of a spontaneous 'sleep with' when traveling and drinking.


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## HomeFrontDadAndMore (Sep 12, 2013)

CJL, [my gut reaction here sorry] I think working in the garage doesn't cut it - I want to do the same here mind you. But, even the coffee shop is a better option... have W 'hunt' you down a bit.

The 2 drink/no drink rule has me baffled. Unenforceable except by their own admission (or screw up like what happened here). If they confide one can't act on it.

What are your mornings like? Are you doing anything to enable her late nights (e.g. playing as her alarm clock, fixing breakfast, etc.).


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

HomeFrontDadAndMore said:


> CJL, [my gut reaction here sorry] I think working in the garage doesn't cut it - I want to do the same here mind you. But, even the coffee shop is a better option... have W 'hunt' you down a bit.
> 
> The 2 drink/no drink rule has me baffled. Unenforceable except by their own admission (or screw up like what happened here). If they confide one can't act on it.
> 
> What are your mornings like? Are you doing anything to enable her late nights (e.g. playing as her alarm clock, fixing breakfast, etc.).


No it doesn't cut it but it takes my mind off of her. Perfect situation would be work in the garage just until she gets home then go somewhere. 

Drink rule. She told me she had 1 drink from 2pm until 11pm. She remembered though she made the no drink rule. Reason for 1 was not to look stupid while everyone else had several. She did dance but not with any males. 

She doesn't have any late nights when she is home.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

cjl said:


> No it doesn't cut it but it takes my mind off of her. Perfect situation would be work in the garage just until she gets home then go somewhere.
> 
> Drink rule. She told me she had 1 drink from 2pm until 11pm. *She remembered though she made the no drink rule. Reason for 1 was not to look stupid while everyone else had several*. She did dance but not with any males.
> 
> She doesn't have any late nights when she is home.


The opinion of others is of more concern than a promise to you.

Part of the pattern.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Malaise said:


> The opinion of others is of more concern than a promise to you.
> 
> Part of the pattern.



I see that but don't we all do this sort of thing?


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

After thinking a few more minutes no, we all don't do this. I don't do that. A promise is sacred or should be. Especially in a marriage.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

It's easy to 'be good' when your SO is there, watching.

It's how you act when they are not....


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

cjl said:


> I see that but don't we all do this sort of thing?


No, we don't.

Clearly the opinion of others is more important than the opinion of your wife's spouse.

Consider that carefully. Especially in terms of getting others, especially men, to like her.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

cjl said:


> I see that but don't we all do this sort of thing?


But to what extent? You know that you are currently at the bottom of the list of people in her life. That means that their opinion is more important than yours, period. Not some times or occasionally, but as an absolute. That is a problem.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Tall Average Guy said:


> But to what extent? You know that you are currently at the bottom of the list of people in her life. That means that their opinion is more important than yours, period. Not some times or occasionally, but as an absolute. That is a problem.


Not quite on the bottom but not where I should be nevertheless.
I'm ahead of the MIL and some friends.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

The last two days she has come home from work at 9pm. Issues with staff scheduling caused this. It's always something to cause it. It doesn't matter to me what the reason is. 
I have been out of the house both times and no supper cooked. 

She did warn me beforehand she might have to stay late. 

I am just not happy with many things at the moment. Her job, step daughter, cat (which is in heat again, so loud). We have refused to pay for the vet procedure and making the daughter stay home with it to endure the process this time. Last time she wouldn't come home and it kept us up at night. 

Bottom line: I told W if I'm not happy I don't feel like giving affection or sex. I'm not one that can push those things aside and be happy. Her love language is touch so it is or will really get to her. I'm not really withholding on purpose, I just don't feel it. I could push through it but why? 

I did tell her on Sunday again that I feel I'm 3rd or 4th on her priority list and it doesn't feel good. She didn't say much.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

No advice really, just hope things go well. You should be #1, not 3 or 4 or lower.

Being gone when she gets home and less emotionally available are good moves.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

naiveonedave said:


> No advice really, just hope things go well. You should be #1, not 3 or 4 or lower.
> 
> Being gone when she gets home and less emotionally available are good moves.


They are. But, will she care? After all, he's not that important to her. It seems.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Funny, my W and I had a rather emotional semi-confrontation on this a couple of days ago. About the essence of taking someone for granted: spending more time, energy and passion on the other roles in one's life than on the role of spouse. After all, that role doesn't require as much effort--the spouse will always be there, right?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I agree Malaise, but at least CJL will know where he stands. He can't force his wife to move him up the pecking order, other than boundaries and consequences, but again only if she chooses.


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## HomeFrontDadAndMore (Sep 12, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> I agree Malaise, but at least CJL will know where he stands. He can't force his wife to move him up the pecking order, other than boundaries and consequences, but again only if she chooses.


:iagree:

It is like pushing a cooked spaghetti with your finger and expecting it to stay the course. I've found, the working late boundary is the hardest to create/deliver consequences. 

In my experience - Become emotionally unavailable and you're labeled "distant" and it becomes their excuse to work late. If you're not there they are 'off the hook' and one has to hope they care enough and become motivated to work on it.

That said, "if she chooses" I'm starting to think is a painful process that no amount of talking or agreements with W will resolve. Recommendations I've received of "leave frequently and do manly things" is what it is boiling down to - one has to reclaim the mystery and respect that 'was' during the earlier days of coupledom.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Malaise said:


> They are. But, will she care? After all, he's not that important to her. It seems.


I think she does care. She always sends a text, "where are you?".
Then she will want me to come home soon. One night when I was really stressed about it I waited another hour before I came home. She didn't get upset but was glad to see me.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Philat said:


> Funny, my W and I had a rather emotional semi-confrontation on this a couple of days ago. About the essence of taking someone for granted: spending more time, energy and passion on the other roles in one's life than on the role of spouse. After all, that role doesn't require as much effort--the spouse will always be there, right?


That's right. If we had a few months to live would we be talking about this? If my W didn't quit her job she would at least cut way back.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

cjl said:


> I think she does care. She always sends a text, "where are you?".
> Then she will want me to come home soon. One night when I was really stressed about it I waited another hour before I came home. She didn't get upset but was glad to see me.


Thus the benefit of letting your spouse know you aren't there for them unconditionally.


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

HomeFrontDadAndMore said:


> :iagree:
> 
> It is like pushing a cooked spaghetti with your finger and expecting it to stay the course. I've found, the working late boundary is the hardest to create/deliver consequences.
> 
> ...



I haven't been gone enough yet to get to this point.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

cjl said:


> I think she does care. She always sends a text, "where are you?".
> Then she will want me to come home soon. One night when I was really stressed about it I waited another hour before I came home. She didn't get upset but was glad to see me.


I get the feeling though that she cares up to the point when it impacts her job or dealings with daughter. Important things, to her.

It didn't cost her anything to wonder where you were since it had nothing to do with work, or d.

But when it does?


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

Malaise said:


> I get the feeling though that she cares up to the point when it impacts her job or dealings with daughter. Important things, to her.
> 
> It didn't cost her anything to be wonder where you were since it had nothing to do with work, or d.
> 
> But when it does?



Yes you are on to something I think. 

Going back to taking the spouse for granted. I will be there but maybe the job and daughter will not. I am a rock in her eyes, always there but the other two are shaky.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

cjl said:


> Yes you are on to something I think.
> 
> Going back to taking the spouse for granted. I will be there but maybe the job and daughter will not. I am a rock in her eyes, always there but the other two are shaky.


Thing about a rock is, you don't have to maintain it, keep it in good repair, polish it, stroke its ego or anything like that.


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