# Need support



## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

D-day Nov. 9 2011 EA/PA a guy she met on FB
April to May 2010 EA (very sexual) a guy she met on FB
1999 to early 2000 internet sex with four guys (England, Canada, etc. not local) and a A that she denies never went sexual with a guy she moved in with for one night, left me with our two young children and prior to that drove around in his pick up truck drinking beer several times.

Since October 2011 I live away from my family during the week and come home on weekends due to a promotion. We are trying to buy a second home so we can be together and it is taking longer then expected and I am frustrated.

I am in R. 

Sorry for this but I just got off the phone with my BIL. He is a pastor and is very insightful. He told me that when I was in Iraq and training for that mission from September 2008 till October 2009 that he and other family members (my wife has a younger brother, two older brothers {all pastors} and two older sisters) that my wife cut off her family. I know that to be true. My wife gave me the spin that her family did not care that I was going away and was not supporting her. 

Anyway, my BIL told me just 1/2 hour ago that they all suspect that my wife was cheating on me while I was in Iraq based upon her behavior. I do not see it. Whenever I contacted my wife via phone, chat, email, she responded quickly. Not like she did when she was having her A's that I know about. When my wife was involved in her A's she was not available. Behaviors like, not having her phone on, being cold, saying she needed space, etc. were not present at all during my deployment.

My wife's family is saying that they think she cheated on me. She basically had two nervous breakdowns when I was deployed and according to her due to me being killed at any moment. When I got back from Iraq and released to go home, my wife and I got a hotel room. She had candles, special music, special clothes, etc. When we finally got naked, I had E.D. Never had it before. I was mentally ready for sex. But the equipment did not work. I got severe pains down there. I ended up in the E.R., got all the tests. Nothing. Doctor prescribes viagra and everything works fine. In fact my wife has to tell me to stop after hours of sex as she is getting too sore. So within about two hours of the problem I am back to being able to perform.

FF-one of the excuses that my wife has use for her A is that I was not passionate the first night after I came home from combat. Fact is I was "fixed" and could perform within hours of the equipment not working and she had to tell me to stop.

My BIL is telling me that he thinks that my wife , feels guilty. That because I could not perform right away that she is projecting her guilt on me and using that as an excuse. E.g. he had E.D. and I don't care that he fixed it within hours, I will use this to cover up my guilt for cheating on him while he was away in Iraq. My BIL is saying that this does not make sense that years after my E.D. moment that she brings it up when in fact within hours things were OK. That a normal person would say, yes it was a problem at first but he got it fixed and things worked out fine. My BIL is saying that her response does not make sense and the fact that my wife has brought it up several times does not make sense.

I have no proof of her having an A while I was deployed. I have no gut feeling that she did. I have no suspicions that she did other then her family saying something was not right here. Her family is saying that she did it before (about 9 years prior) and then after (2010 and 2011) and they are saying it does not make sense that while you were away that she did not since she was free to really exploit her addiction.

Honestly, I don't know. I am not in a right frame of mind right now. I really do not care.

This past weekend was the best we have had since D-day and my wife really opened up to me about her issues. She is honestly owning some stuff that she never admitted to owning before and I believe it is because she is in IC and is starting to come to terms with her problems.

This sucks because I can't be with her during the week. The second house we were going to buy has died due to my ignorance of the VA loan process and we should have moved into it in early April but it is dead. Now we are looking at other houses and it only adds to my misery and more delays.

R is hard enough but add not being around during the week and my mind goes everywhere.

I do have my drinking and anger under control but this crap is still so tough.

Some (not all) of the best folks on TAM who were helping me are gone. We talked on PM and I gave some advice on were to get help and what type of therapy they or their loved ones and they are seeking that help, but they are no longer available as they are seeking therapy. 

Look, I am a combat soldier, over 38 years in the military. I have an advance degree and do counseling as a profession. I am very good at what I do, but I am broken. I am in IC and am seeing a psychiatrist (something I would have never done in the past). My wife's A had torn me apart. Not even seeing soldiers killed or any other job I have done (trauma chaplain) has ripped me like this has. I was a freaken tough guy and I am broken.

None of this makes sense to me. Tell me that my wife did not cheat on me while I was deployed. I know the signs. I have not seen them nor do I when I look back.

But I know better then to rely on my own thoughts. I was wrong before.

Part of me wants to take my bronze star, combat action badge and all my other military stuff and throw them into a sewer, because they don't mean a damn thing to me right now.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

I can't say that she did or didn't, but I hope you are reading the signs right that she didn't. 

At least your BIL only suspects and does not have proof of an A. 

Stay strong.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

In all honesty I would expect that with your training in counseling, your experience with your wife's other affairs, and your time here you are vastly more prepared to evaluate the likely hood that she cheated during that period than your pastor BIL. On top of that I would think you would be more paranoid not less given recent events. I say trust your own instinct here and don't borrow any more trouble.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Thorburn, you know I'm a "newbie". You say your gut says she didn't. We always say here...trust your gut. Perhaps she did, perhaps she didn't. You know she had a few EA, and at least one PA. It's possible the family is trying to start something... I don't know. If it were me, I'd probably work under the assumption that she DIDN'T... unless/until evidence to the contrary is found. But that's me.


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## humanbecoming (Mar 14, 2012)

Praying for you my man. I spent 5 years working long distance from my wife and kids, and it's tough for a number of reasons. The hardest is the being lonely.... I started hanging out with one of my employees, and living the party life with him, drinking every night. Not a good thing for sure.

Thing is, with things going the way you have talked about in your posts, I believe your wife would have told you about a past affair. Things are going much better for you, and this is a major road bump causing you to trigger. 

On your service- My BIL spent a tour as a medic over there.... From his stories, if you got medals, dude, you deserve them. There are guys you fought with that I'm sure thank their lucky stars every day that you were there. 

Not sure how you deal with the triggers, but this sounds like the mother "f"er of them, and with not turning to the alcohol, it seems harder to face. 

Wishing you strength, and peace.


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## TorontoBoyWest (May 1, 2012)

Thorburn first off I have read your all your threads, and I feel at a loss as to what you are going thru.

I respect your service to your country, as it takes a courage and dedication that few of us have...

I will say to you tho, at what point for you is enough enough?

At what point do you say...

"I have done all that I can do. I have nothing more to give."

It seems like you do not want to have that ephiphany, that you are fighting it.

So again I ask.... when is enough enough?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Why is your BIL coming to you with this info now, and not back in November 2011 when all the sh*t was going down?

I don't get it. Is he pissed at your wife for something and wants to make waves? 

Sigh.... I don't know Thor, part of me wants to say I wish you would have walked away from the whole lot of them six months ago, moved to Alaska and become a fish packer.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

I would assume I do not know the full truth and have no way of getting it. I would not assume she had an affair just because of your brother-in-law's suspicions. I also would not rule it out.

Cheaters rarely confess the entire truth.

Was there any affair that your wife did confess to on her own, or did she only confess when confronted with evidence?

I guess you could try the polygraph if you feel strongly about it.

You know she was a serial cheater and very unfaithful in the past. *If you feel you are making excellent progress with your wife now, does it really matter if she had one affair more or less in the past?* Would any affair she had during that time frame be any different than anything you already found out about her other affairs?

I would just drop it for now and not let it ruin the progress you're making in fixing your marriage. If she is making personal progress with counseling, maybe she really will come clean about all of her affairs and details at some point in the future.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Thanks. My gut says she did not. I do not see any signs. But the way she cut off her family during this time does not make sense. My wife was always close to her family. Stories I have heard from her family was she went off on her oldest brother and one sister right after I deployed. It does not make sense I supported my wife during this time and listened to her and when i got back I followed her lead with her family. She basically cut off contact with most (not all) her family. Maybe they feel hurt and are just thinking that the reason she treated them badly was she was in her A mode. I don't know,

My gut is telling me that she did not cheat during this time. But again I have not always been tuned in to the signs. I still do not see the signs during this time. She was always available and in tune to what i was doing. But, I am open to what others say. My BIL has been correct in his past observations about my wife's A. So I do take what he says as important. He has been dead on when I was not.


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## crossbar (Aug 25, 2011)

I've been there too and I've seen what the military lifestyle does to marriages. The thing is, it takes a very special woman to be a military wife. The marry the service member and they have their "Knight in shining Armour" in the form of a military uniform. They realize that deployments happen and that they can be gone anywhere from 6 months to over a year! But, what they don't realize is the work ups to these deployments. The weeks and months away prior to the deployment. Military members are gone a lot and the spouses don't truely realize what they've gotten themselves into.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I say just ignore the BIL for now. Sounds like there are some family politics going on right now. Stay out of it.

Sorry you lost the deal on your house, and sorry your sorry-a*s agent and loan officer didn't do their due diligence in making sure your were 100% qualified for the mortgage. Thor, thats their job!!!  

Hope to God you didn't pay those chumps a fee. Did you get your earnest money back?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Could you talk to her about it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ingalls (Mar 7, 2012)

I think that you should trust your gut for now. Just like when something isn't right, it's usually true. Same thing-only reverse. Why is your BIL just now contacting you? Is that odd? I don't quit understand that honestly? 

I'm sorry this is not good timing. Think back to the weekend and the great and positive strides you and wife made. Don't let this rob that from you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

You say your brother in law was always correct about your wife's previous affairs when you did not see it. Why should he be wrong now? He has an excellent track record.

The fact that she would call you back quickly when you called means absolutely nothing. What does it take to tell her lover to be quiet when she returns your call?


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> I say just ignore the BIL for now. Sounds like there are some family politics going on right now. Stay out of it.
> 
> Sorry you lost the deal on your house, and sorry your sorry-a*s agent and loan officer didn't do their due diligence in making sure your were 100% qualified for the mortgage. Thor, thats their job!!!
> 
> Hope to God you didn't pay those chumps a fee. Did you get your earnest money back?


Sorry as* agent for sure. I working with another one. I was qualified and still am for much more then the loan we needed. It was the condition of the house that failed to measure up. Still can't figure out why the appraisal is not done up front instead at the end of the process. If the appraisal would have been done up front we would have known in January to move on to another house. I freaken paid for an inspection and that killed the deal. I paid for it and sent it to everyone. I did not have to do this as an inspection is not required. In the long run it saved me money. But I would rather pay for an inspection and appraisal up front to see if the house is worthy then having this stuff at the end of the process. It is as* backwards. you find a home. Apply for the loan, etc. etc. then at the end the appraiser comes in and says whether the house is livable, etc. Reverse this process so you know up front whether the VA will approve the house or not,not six months down the road, after you have all your hopes tied up into a house. The process is as* backwards.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

This is why I don't sell houses anymore brother. It's a racket.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

From reading this..I get the feeling something is going on with your wife and her brother as in..he's ticked off at her for some reason or another and is bullshi++ing for some reason. Jealous about something? Who knows but I have had hubby's side of family start rumors about me that aren't true and it sucks! From the way it sounds your wife is being truthful..just my sixth sense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

It would help to know what behaviors she was exhibiting for them to base their suspicions on. They are her blood family, not yours, so BIL would not take the decision lightly to throw her under the bus, especially him being a pastor. To say that his own sister was cheating on you must have taken some thought. Then add the fact that he has been right every time and your WW cutting off her family that doesn't make sense. It also doesn't make sense why your BIL is telling you this now when you're in R. Did he say why he decided to tell you now of all times? Wouldn't it have been easier for them to keep this swept under the rug and not ruin your attempt at R? A lot of this doesn't seem to make sense all around.

The thing is, you know when you deploy, you really have no idea what your spouse is doing, unless you have friends or coworkers that are in contact with your spouse. If you're having problems in your marriage, your mind can run rampant. If your marriage seems solid, then you deal with the loneliness and yearning for your spouse. You have to take everything on faith. With all the things going on where you're deployed, you would not have seen any signs. 

But the question is, do you think finding out about an unknown previous affair would be a deal breaker? You already know that R is oh so difficult. If true, would this be the final straw? I cannot tell you that she did not cheat, but I can't say that she did either. You know her, I don't. I can't tell you that you should sweep this under the rug and move forward because I too came into some information about my fWW over a month ago that almost derailed my R.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> This past weekend was the best we have had since D-day and my wife really opened up to me about her issues. She is honestly owning some stuff that she never admitted to owning before and I believe it is because she is in IC and is starting to come to terms with her problems...
> 
> 
> Look, I am a combat soldier, over 38 years in the military. I have an advance degree and do counseling as a profession. I am very good at what I do, but I am broken. I am in IC and am seeing a psychiatrist (something I would have never done in the past). My wife's A had torn me apart. Not even seeing soldiers killed or any other job I have done (trauma chaplain) has ripped me like this has. I was a freaken tough guy and I am broken.
> ...


Thorburn:

I so understand that your wife's affairs can be more traumatizing than combat issues. I have been truly traumatized by my husbands recent affair. I really can't concentrate or think straight or get too much done. I used to be super organized, now I am a basket case.

I am sorry you are going through this. 

IMO, trust your gut. If you think things are going well than perhaps they are. 

Still, The fact that she responds now to texts and calls quickly may mean she is not having another affair or it may be that she does this as a cover. 

Still, trust your gut. 

Also, if you can't read your gut, ask her if she would be willing to do a poly and watch her response. If she agrees, she likely has nothing to hide. If she balks.....can you hire a Private investigator to trail her?

I don't trust poly's. Still, she should be open to taking one. 

Don't throw your combat medals away. You will regret it someday.

Even if things were not to work out, you will get past this someday.

I so respect the medals you have received. Thank you, thank you, thank you for protecting all of us in the USA.

I am so sorry you are being tormented by your wife's affairs. 

It's not because of who you are, though. It's because of her own issues.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

so that's the big to do when you have a serial cheater, you'll just never know for sure will you? and I'm sure more doubts will pop up in the future

not that I don't share the same doubts even though my wife only cheated 18 days, I can't imagine how ramped up it is for you


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Thank you for your service to our country.

I understand that you are in R. How did the discussion about the possibility of your wife cheating while you were deployed start? Was BIL expressing concerns about her true intentions with R?

Her behavior of pulling away from family during your deployment is incredibly suspect to say the least. Why reject the very people who should be the support base for her and the kids? You did not see this because you were not there.

Truthfully, I think you are in denial about the possibility of a deployment affair because you simply do not want more weight piled on you at this point when you are trying to deal with what you have already confirmed.

So did she or didn't she? Only she can tell you, if she will. Her track record with the truth has not been the best.

Bottom line is what will you do IF she did have an affair at that time. Will that push you over the edge into D or will you continue R?


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Not going to throw my medals away. I did right after D-day. Threw all my stuff in the trash. My wife pulled everything out and said that she earned these with me and that by me throwing them out is wrong. She told me that she was there for me during my deployment and the medals I earned are ones that she is proud of and that getting rid of them would hurt me in the long run and she told me that it would hurt her. 

I threw my wedding ring in the toilet in January and she retrieved it before I flushed it. I have just put it back on a few weeks ago.

My two adult sons lived with my wife while I was deployed. They told me that "mom" was not fooling around to their knowledge and they both told me that they believe they would have known it if she did. They both knew she was fooling around in 1999 and early 2000 and then again in 2011. My youngest son helped me catch my wife (his mother) in November.

So as I look back I do not see any signs, nada, during the time I was deployed. My wife's family have talked about it. They look at what she has done since I have been home and are trying to figure out why she cut them off when I deployed and have come to the conclusion that she was fooling around and did not want them in her life to interfer. Her one sister and her would spend a lot of time together and almost on the day I left is the day she cut off contact with her sister. My older BIL would talk to my wife weekly on the phone for hours for years. The week I deployed my wife blasted him about getting in contact with her sister to relay a message to her. My wife said she is not a messenger service. He claims he backed off due to not wanting to get his sister's wrath. I am convinced that my wife was upset that I was gone and did not handle things right with her family and they withdrew. During this time I could call my wife at any time and she had her phone with her and would respond right away. Like I said before, when my wife was involved in A's, she rarely reponded to any phone calls quickly and would at times turn her cell phone off. My wife never ever turned her cell phone off and that was a sign to me.

If she cheated I do want to know but i am not in investigation mode. 

Deal breaker. I don't know. I know that if she tells me that she had sex in 1999 I would be pissed but I already know that when she told me that they drove around in his pickup truck drinking and smoking cigarettes (that is when she started smoking) that they only kissed and hugged (yea i know - kiss=sex in cheater speak). I am convinced she had sex and she keeps telling me no. She moved in with the dude for one night and left me with the kids. She said she was so upset she showered and slept on his bed upstairs and he slept on the couch downstairs. I don't believe her and I will continue to press her about this when we have our talks. 

Her behaviors with her family was little to no contact while I was deployed and when there was contact her family said she was always angry with them. With me she was sweet and always available, whether it was late or early for her. Again my boys were there and other then when she basically came to the verge of two nervous breakdowns and loss of memory there was no other strange behavior reported by my two sons. They both picked up signs of her cheating when they weer 11 and twelve in 1999 and then in 2011 both sons knew she was cheating on me and helped me catch her.

In 1999 our marriage was rocky but not horrible. In 2010 and 2011 our marriage was good.

I am focused on R and if last weekend was an indication we are well on our way. 

My wife is staying at her youngest brother's house while they are taking a cruise. Last year she did the same thing and she told me she needed space and that is when the A really got ramped up. I came home every day and her plan was to feed the dog, etc then come home every night (as his house is about an hour away from ours). The first week she did not come home saying she needed space. i would go down for the weekend and for a month she did not come home. THe weekends sucked. So I did put two VARs in the house this time (Trust but verify). Everything I call her she is at his house other then a few times she went out shopping for food. This weekend I saw where she takes most of the calls and where she sits. She also tells me on the phone, oh I sitting by the hot tub, or I am on my computer. So I know where she spends most of her day and I placed the VARs at these locations. They were easy to hide. I wish I would have gotten two more but again I think she is so relaxed with me being hours away and having days to herself if anything is going on I will get it. I am hoping that there is nothing. She knows I monitor her phone and the the signal is poor there at this place. She goes out on the back porch to make or recieve calls and I have a VAR there. That is also where she sits when she gets a call on the home phone. If anyone visits her I will know because the one VAR is placed where I can hear conversations at the door, living room, kitchen and dining room. The house is fairly large but I got most of it covered. 

Why the VARs now? I want to end any suspicions. Being at her brothers house has made her relaxed and she feels safe there. I will hear most conversations. She rarely goes upstairs except to sleep. She only twice ever took a call upstairs when I called. This morning she was still sleeping and I woke her up and a few days ago she was napping. Every other time she took the calls down stairs. Again she is not using her cell phone much because the signal is very weak. She is using the landline and I can't monitor my BIL's phone. Hense the VARs. Tonight I will go there for a long weekend and will have time to listen to the VARs. I am hoping that I find nothing. If she is still in A mode I believe this will reveal it. If not it will show that she is sincere. I am anxious to hear what the VARs recorded. I am hoping that it will show nothing. I can see her right now talking on the phone either by her computer or on the couch or on the chairs on the back porch. If she is doing something bad she is using her brother's phone because she knows I can't get access to his phone records (her younger brother will never help me in busting her). So later tonight or early tomorrow I will know.

I will let you all know how it went.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

I hope you find the piece of mind you need to move forward.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I'll be praying for you, I just know that when I'm depressed I don't talk to anyone, even my closest friends, even my sisters who i usually would talk to about anything. I guess you'll find out soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Why is your BIL coming to you with this info now, and not back in November 2011 when all the sh*t was going down?
> 
> I don't get it. Is he pissed at your wife for something and wants to make waves?
> 
> Sigh.... I don't know Thor, part of me wants to say I wish you would have walked away from the whole lot of them six months ago, moved to Alaska and become a fish packer.


I know someone who was accused of loads of vile stuff that he didn't do by his long time girl friend. And lots of people believed her.

When he asked her why she had told everyone lies about him she said: "God told me what you did!"

So just because a religious person tells you stuff, it doesn't have to be true.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Good luck Thor. Hope she is behaving herself. Let us know what you find (or don't find).

And don't you ever throw those medals away! The people of the United States, all of us Americans here at TAM, gave you those medals, so we have a vested interest in you as your employers. 

You earned them brother, with your blood. You are a hero to us. Your sacrifice transcends marriage or all these petty earthly human problems we deal with here. 

If you do, this old Seabee is going to pay you a visit, and I still know how to toss a brick pretty good!


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Then from what you describe, I too would come to the conclusion that she wasn't cheating either. And it looks like you have your bases covered with the VARs. I'm guessing she's been a good girl this time. Keep your guard up as long as you feel you need to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Praying everything's ok over there..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Crossbar - you are right! It takes a special person to be a military spouse, adn I was a damn good one at that! Thorburn -good to see you here, but sorry for the reasons. I jumped off for a couple of months and probably will again soon, but it does feel good to get things off my chest too. Don't throw away your army stuff. My husband destroyed all of his one after his supposed "goodbye, I ruined my life when I met you, I destroyed my marriage and have no honor. I am destroying every army medal/award that I though meant something to me, the same as how I destroyed my life when I met you." I think he probably regrets it (although he is the WS in this story), but has also admitted that while he was surrounded by honor for 20 years and promoted it, he was not living it. He thought he was because of his actions most of the time, but when it came to me - the military spouse, he was not. I spent 14 years as a military spouse, and cheating happens all the time, with deployments. I never worried about me wanting to cheat, but prayed that he would not be deployed because I knew that it would give him the opportunity and I would never know. I don't know why your wife would shut herself off from her family - seems liek a time when she might lean on them the most. What sned off alarms for me is that she had a problem with you returning from deployment and had issues with you net being good to go right away. She should have been sympathetic given the circumstances and eager to just be with you, hold you and love you. That should not EVER have been an issue. I kind of feel like i am in the same boat as you on one point. I know my husband has doen this before - not to this extent. He once cheated right after we were married before we moved to our first duty station together - he was in one state and I was in another. Then after this mess, he admitted that he had cheated one other time. A part of me (my gut) thinks that there were other times, although I do not know why he would admit to one other only. A part of me wants to know now so I can just deal with it all at once and possibly not have it come up in the future if it is true. I want to ask, but I have also said (to help us in R) , that what happened in the past is now the past, and as long as he is faithful and honest now, that is what matters. Did I shoot myself in the foot for doing that? Is it too late to ask? Should I? Does it matter? It matters for the simple fact that if he is hiding any other times, he is essentially still lying and he will always have that on his concience. For that reason alone I think I need to ask. Maybe you just need to ask. It is great that your wife is going to counseling and it will help her sort through thigs, but she needs to get the skeletons out of the closet so she can have a clear concience from this point on. If you ask her and she has nothing hide, she may be hurt, but should not get angry.....I think I just gave myself some more advice this morning.....crap, do I ruin a 3 day weekend? We have been doing good, but, this week has been off, just something I can't put my finger on. He hates himself and says we are good and he is right where he wants to be, but has a tough time dealing with what he has done to me. I know he is remorseful, but he still needs help...his lack of getting it is what worries me and keeps me on edge, hence me logging back in here.


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## Unsure2621 (Mar 23, 2012)

First and foremost do not ever throw away your medals. In fact you should have them framed and hang them. Not for her or because she feels partial ownership for them, but because of you. Those are your medals. I am learning that autonomy is an important part of recovery. If you feel the need to throw something away go into her bathroom and toss out her makeup. Go into her closet and toss out her favorite dress. Don't throw away a part of you that you should be proud of because of what she did.

Based on the fact that you have brought this up as a point of discussion, at some point it will need to be addressed for your own piece of mind and sanity. Consider if you don't address it in some way that maybe several years from now this will boil back up as a point of resentment. I almost think its better to get all the skeletons out of the closet in one shot so you can move forward with the R. If she still has secrets it's really only blocking her full ability to R. All the secrets need to come to light before you can truly rebuild and move on. But if she is truly having some breakthrough's you may want to be a little patient with her.

Before jumping to a conclusion on how to handle this I would wait and see what comes back on the VAR. I think that will give you more information on where you stand.

I'm nervous and sending you positive thoughts!! I really am hoping for a positive ending for you!


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

Thor, I hope you find your peace of mind.

I am also in R and my WH is finally showing the signs of coming back, emotionally. In the end, isn't this what we are striving for in R? Is she coming back to you in this way? Only you can know. And frankly, if she has more than one betrayal under her belt, it really doesn't matter, she's a serial, and you already know that, no matter what your BIL or anyone else brings to your door...

I made peace with the fact that I may never know it all. Can I live with that? I don't know yet. I just know I need the connection to heal between us to go forward. I hope you are able to heal also your body mind and spirit. Your wife has simply a jewel in you. I hope she sees that.

The best thing about getting my education was that it was something I earned on my own. Something no one or no thing could ever take from me. My values, my dedication. YOUR MEDALS ARE LIKE THAT. Treasure them. Forever.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

I have not listened to all the recordings on the VAR's but was able to listen to the majority of them. Did not realize how much would be recorded, birds, dogs barking, etc. So far nothing. It is funny how the phone conversations that we had are recorded and I can place events that happened around my calls. My wife was at her brother's house while they were on a cruise. At one point I heard someone knocking at the door and my wife did not answer it (it happened at least twice) and the dogs were going crazy. After comparing the two VAR's and my phone calls with my wife, she was in the hot tub at the time in the back of the house and would not have heard the dogs barking or someone knocking at the door. I know, I was in that hot tub for the past 5 days and you can't hear much when you have it cranked up. Anyway, I saw a note from a visiting nurse (that was the one knock) that she paid a visit and I am sure that the second person knocking was from the same agency. My wife was oblivious to anyone coming to the house when she was in the hot tub. 

Anyway, she seems to be squeaky clean at this point. Tonight I hope to listen to the rest but by her body lanuage, her desire to be with me (it is not fake) and what I have seen and heard so far it looks very positive. If there was anything going on she would have slipped up here at her brother's house. She was at her brother's house last year for a month and that is where her A really took off.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

bet you feel much better
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

....for those of us that are in "R"...the rest of our days we will be watching our partner closely and freak out at the slightest hint of something "off". It sucks. I was just there again 2 months ago after 5 years...!!

Glad to hear things are ok and nothing to worry about!!!


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

CantSitStill said:


> bet you feel much better
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cant - I do. But I just wish she would open up more and answer some questions. She is still "not remembering". I am not buying it. She told me something about her A from 13 years ago. She said they did not have sex and I said I don't believe you. I asked her questions about that one and she remembered details from 13 years ago that she never shared with me. That is why I am not happy with her not giving me answers about what happend last fall and her saying she does not remember.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

I think your BIL was grasping at straws regarding your wife's behavior, that he couldn't understand why she would behave that way & he wouldn't believe that she CHOSE to exclude herself from her family.
I for one understand that feeling, when my husband recently deployed, the last thing I wanted was anything from anyone, I only wanted to hole myself up in our home, with our memories & no outside interference.
I wanted to be isolated because I knew that no one else understand what I was going through & quite honestly I didn't want to be nice, nor could I hear "it will be okay" or "you're so strong, how do you do it" one more time without losing my sh*t. 
I wonder if your wife was going through a similar thing, that she just didn't want the sympathy, because sometimes it feels more like smothering.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Thorburn said:


> Cant - I do. But I just wish she would open up more and answer some questions. She is still "not remembering". I am not buying it. She told me something about her A from 13 years ago. She said they did not have sex and I said I don't believe you. I asked her questions about that one and she remembered details from 13 years ago that she never shared with me. That is why I am not happy with her not giving me answers about what happend last fall and her saying she does not remember.


The power dynamic shifted back to her when her family turned against you. She is up to her tricks again now. How you would want to be with this woman after the amount of betrayal, lies and trickle truth she put you through the years is beyond me. 


Have you taken her to a polygraph? Was the older affair discussed there?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Glad the VARs didn't come up with anything T. But stay vigilant.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

warlock07 said:


> The power dynamic shifted back to her when her family turned against you. She is up to her tricks again now. How you would want to be with this woman after the amount of betrayal, lies and trickle truth she put you through the years is beyond me.
> 
> 
> Have you taken her to a polygraph? Was the older affair discussed there?


I hear you. No polygraph yet. I am waiting. I found someone who has good credentials. But I am waiting for the poly.


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## Unsure2621 (Mar 23, 2012)

This is good news!! I have been thinking about you since you last posted. I am sending positive energy your way Thor.


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## Darth Vader (Jan 2, 2011)

Thorburn said:


> I hear you. No polygraph yet. I am waiting. I found someone who has good credentials. But I am waiting for the poly.


You realize you wife's full of S H I T!? Right? You know she knows exactly what happened, so have her polygraphed, including about what happened years ago. I think her BIL is onto something, has he given any reasons as to why he feels the way he does?

If it were me, I'd say drop the B I T C H's ass! Trade her in for two 20 years olds!

After all, you deserve way better than her!


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Disagree with Darth Vadar..what the heck? The vars came out clean let it be
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Darth Vader (Jan 2, 2011)

CantSitStill said:


> Disagree with Darth Vadar..what the heck? The vars came out clean let it be
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It doesn't mean she didn't have the sex back 13 years ago. That's the reason for the polygraph.

As far as VAR's go, who say that something like that couldn't go underground? After all, it's happened before, right? So, what's to say that it won't happen again?


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

whatever
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

It interesting to see the simularities, I too had a wife that started cheating on me 13 years ago, and after 20 OM's I'm getting by. Whats even more interesting is the the remorse that my wife has and I hope the same for you. 

Whats concerning is that your fWW has choosen to block out .."not remember" in my case the facts need to come out so I knew what I was forgiving my wife for, and exactly what I was dealing with. The real important thing in the end is does she want to have a healthier life with healthier behaviors?

Thank you for your service and if it wasn't for guys like you it would be guys like me fighting haji at my front door. So again thank you.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

I may be completely alone in this point of view, and I'm responding only to your initial post on this thread as I haven't had a chance to read the rest of it yet, but....I wonder if the question is one that can be left in the past. You don't have any proof or feeling that she did and finding those answers won't change anything, really, right? You've decided to reconcile. So, would it be possible to just lump all her bad behavior as bad behavior that she's trying to own up to eventually? I guess what I mean to ask is, would the answer (did she or is BIL just suspecting wrongly) change your desire for reconciliation? I'm not sure there is a right or wrong answer, just wondering how much the information matters and whether or not having the answers would impact healing from the rift. If it won't truly make a difference, try to move forward instead of getting caught up in it. If it makes a difference, maybe you can ask her about it...? I don't know if this advice or POV is helpful. I sympathize with your situation and wish you luck. Hang in there.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

moxy said:


> I may be completely alone in this point of view, and I'm responding only to your initial post on this thread as I haven't had a chance to read the rest of it yet, but....I wonder if the question is one that can be left in the past. You don't have any proof or feeling that she did and finding those answers won't change anything, really, right? You've decided to reconcile. So, would it be possible to just lump all her bad behavior as bad behavior that she's trying to own up to eventually? I guess what I mean to ask is, would the answer (did she or is BIL just suspecting wrongly) change your desire for reconciliation? I'm not sure there is a right or wrong answer, just wondering how much the information matters and whether or not having the answers would impact healing from the rift. If it won't truly make a difference, try to move forward instead of getting caught up in it. If it makes a difference, maybe you can ask her about it...? I don't know if this advice or POV is helpful. I sympathize with your situation and wish you luck. Hang in there.




Warlock wrote : *The power dynamic shifted back to her when her family turned against you. She is up to her tricks again now. How you would want to be with this woman after the amount of betrayal, lies and trickle truth she put you through the years is beyond me. 

Have you taken her to a polygraph? Was the older affair discussed there? *

Moxy thanks. I think my BIL is wrong but he was right on everything before so I do consider everything he says. He has given me and continues to give me good advice. I think for him and her family they look back and see her cutting them off as strange and based upon her A's they are trying to come up with an explanation. personally, I think it was just an emotional time for her when I deployed and she took it out on them.

Warlock, it is ironic how I thought of this as far as the power dynamic. It would be a long post but my wife's family (other then her youngest brother) is now acting strange towards her again. I think due in part to me dealing with my issues (they are satisfied that I am on the right path) they are now focusing on her and what the hel* she did and are basically ignoring her quite a bit. She is giving me all kinds of excuses as to why but I see it. I see it as they are back to focusing on her wrong doings. That is my take on it and I think I am right. 

I listen to all the recordings on the VARs and she is squeaky clean.

I put one in her car today and one in the house. When I come home on Friday I will listen to them. This is a trust but verify approach. I don't think I will find anything as I think she is done. I wish I would had done this months ago because I would known one way or the other and not have these nagging doubts. 

My wife is on board with looking for a house. Again another long story but to see where she was at last year and where she is now is good news.

The phone, the computer is another long story but she is doing great there as well.

We had a great weekend.

I just wish I could get some answers related to her A and maybe they will come.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I'm glad to see you and your wife are starting to get back in sync with one another. 

I think there is a deep love there between you two, a powerful love that has endured serial cheating on her part, months of separation while you have been deployed, family turmoil.... and yet somehow this house is still standing. 

I think the two of you can build a new, stronger marriage on this foundation, and as that relationship grows I think your need for all those answers will lessen with time... or, she will eventually come to a place where she feels strong enough that she can tell you the truth. Just be patient.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Thor, trust but verify, I agree. 

I understand still needing to get answers. Or to need the answers you do have, to be real, to make sense. And having a good weekend once in a while does help. A lot. 

OK, here comes my 2...

What I remember about your story is how much time, effort and faith you have put into your marriage and your spouse. I remember thinking how deep your virtue of loyalty really was to her and how I truly hoped she could see, feel, and respond to this gift. And in some weird way.......wait for it....... to be OK even if she didn't.

People go through an entire lifetime without ever facing the demons you have.What you have achieved, just on your part, irregardless of her reply? is remarkable. If you guys come out great in the end, after everything you have overcome? well, that's all a beautiful icing on the cake.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Update.

Over a month ago my wife suggested that we hook up on Wednesdays half way between where I live during the week and where our home is. It was a great suggestion. For a month it did not work out. Wife had to work one day, she had her chemo treatment the other, etc. Not a problem she had legitimate things to do on those Wednesdays. 

This past weekend my wife and I talked about meeting this week as it would be the first free Wednesday since she came up with the suggestion and I said we could meet in one or two towns and shop, eat, etc. I was excited. 

My wife and her next oldest sister has been at odds since I deployed to Iraq in Sept 2008. Her sister and her were very close, and my BIL always said I was his best friend. We have not talked but two times since I came home in 2009 and those times were brief. He died two weeks ago. Well my sister in law was nasty to my wife for over 3 and 1/2 years and I supported my wife during this time. When my BIL died my wife reached out to her sister and finally they decided to go out, YEP THIS WENDSDAY.

Sorry to say I lost it last night as my wife was out with her sister again for over 5 hours. I do not mind her mending the fence with her sister but i am not ready. My wife and her sister ruined a great relationship I had with my BIL. I am deeply hurt and he is dead. I had nothing to do with the spilt. It was really nasty last night. I honestly thought my marriage was over. Saw a psychiatrist today (timely) and she is a good one. I was very upset but she did not let me talk about my marriage issues other then very briefly. She wanted to focus on me. Not what I wanted but I do understand. She confirmed I have PTSD from combat and will put me in treatment for PTSD and my marriage issues. My wife has been trying to get me on medication since she has been on it for months for depression and anxiety. The Psychiatrist said the only thing I need is a sleeping pill (Temazepam). It can be habit forming but she wants me to take it as needed and I don't need one everynight.

My wife also found one of the VAR's I had in the house and said so you are spying on me and the boys. I don't know how she found it unless it started beeping and I thought I had the sound turned off. I hope she did not find the other one in her car because that is the one that is more important to see that she is clean.

We talked about an hour ago and she started to mention the VAR but dropped it. We talked for a long time, plus she had IC today. She sounded mad but stated that she wants a great weekend and I discussed the issue of Wednesday. She said we miscommunicated and she might have been correct, honestly, I did not mention it since Sunday and just assumed. She said she was sorry for that and that we can reserve Wednesdays in the future.

I did not go into all the details of the argument, she brought things up from over 20 years ago and she said today that she went over the top. 

So we are moving forward. I understand blood relationships can ebb and flow and that when she decided to mend the fence with her sister it is the right thing to do but again I have 3 1/2 years of seeing my wife hurt and heard the nasty things said. I am not blood and I told my wife that it will take me a longer time to mend the fence. 

It will be interesting tonight when I get home what the conversation will be about the VAR and I really hope she did not find the one in her car. I think she is clean and this was really the last time I was going to use them for a while and I only used them once before and I got busted. I will tell her that this is the legacy she brought into the marriage of having me spy on her.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

I suggest avoid the word spy, use verify . It flows with your stock standard answer to her i.e. in order for you to trust her you need to verify . Avoid any other talk on the VAR, there is no doubt she will look for more VAR's.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Eli-Zor said:


> I suggest avoid the word spy, use verify . It flows with your stock standard answer to her i.e. in order for you to trust her you need to verify . Avoid any other talk on the VAR, there is no doubt she will look for more VAR's.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Eli, I have a 2 1/2 hour drive home and I just hope to have another good weekend. The week sucked.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

probably time for those better camouflage ones. Eg, from brickhouse, spy store, etc


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

If she asks about the VAR be honest. Tell her if she was a trustworthy wife you would not need one, and that until she restores your trust in her you will do what you need to do to protect yourself. 

Simple. 

Of course I'm not married to her.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

:iagree: :iagree: You know, I don't usually agree with you bandit, just because you're a little 'John Wayne' for my tastes. I don't DISagree, just... 

Anyways, this one YOU NAILED. No need to even say more.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> If she asks about the VAR be honest. Tell her if she was a trustworthy wife you would not need one, and that until she restores your trust in her you will do what you need to do to protect yourself.
> 
> Simple.
> 
> Of course I'm not married to her.


You could tell her it will protect her, too. It will ensure you do not have any unreasonable, unfounded jealously against her, as you know what she has said or done, not what you might have imagined.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Thor, I really feel for you. Your descriptions of your emotional state and your reflections on yourself afterward are almost identical to what I have been experiencing. I went onto a sleeping pill instead of anxiety meds, as my doctor also told me that was what I needed. I feel much better and can now sleep when I really need to. When I am overstressed and overloaded.

It also sounds like your fights get very emotional and escalate. You said you honestly thought it was finally over. I know that feeling. Can you actually FEEL the adrenaline and cortisol and crazy hormones and brain chemicals coursing through your veins?.... I do. 

I am sorry to hear about your family situation. My brother and my husband are really good friends and I hope your wife sees that is a loss also for you.

About the VAR, I agree with bandit you gotta be honest, but I would stop short of blame. You should just say you need to do it to verify and feel protected, you could also say you wanted to record your arguments to better understand where it goes off the rails. 

I am glad you had a chance to talk with a doctor about how you are feeling. Was the appt. set up in advance? If not, you have impeccable timing! Even though you were steered away from discussing too many marital issues, it sounds like you may actually have found a good one that has your best interest at heart.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

UPDATE:

Many details are going to be left out due to length. Things got bad, really bad.

My wife knew about the one VAR from day one. She played it so cool and slick, I could not believe it.

Now I am in the dark.

Make matters worst I put one in her car and got a shock.

My wife has made up with her next older sister since our BIL died a few weeks ago. It is a long story but when I deployed in Sept. 2008 the two of them had words and over the past 3 and 1/2 years my SIL and my wife were at odds. My BIL who died considered me his best friend up till 2008. I supported my wife through this time. Then two weeks ago they made up and last week they hooked up. i did not like it. I told my wife to be guarded. My wife told me she would not share anything with her sister about the A or us. I had a bad feeling. My wife spent 5 hours with her sister on Wednesday and again on Thursday and we had a hugh arguement about it Thursday night. My wife said she did not share a thing about us.

Lies, lies, lies.

I have it on tape. My wife laughting with her sister about the A. Her mocking me, etc. It was horrible.

I confronted my wife. I almost had a nervous breakdown on Saturday night. Sunday we talked it out. I was pissed but under control and laid out everything they said. My wife told me she was sorry. I could go on and on.

We agreed that she will stop her lying and answer my questions about the A. And I in turn will be more relaxed.

I did not push her at this time. The rest of Sunday went well and last night we were looking at houses. We found four and prioritized them and will be putting an offer down soon on one.

I thought my wife was sharing things with her younger brother and her next older brother. That they were her support system. Her oldest brother is only talking to me. I was wrong. She is not sharing much with them. Now I understand more about the funeral of my wife's middle sister's husband. 

A few weeks ago our BIL died (husband of my wife's middle sister). My wife was watching her youngest brother's house while they were on vacation. Her next oldest brother flew up from florida, landed a half and hour away, had told my wife the day before he was not coming up for the funeral. He has been off and on been finishing his youngest brother's basement (over $70,000 and still not done, on a basement!). Anyway, he drove right by my wife (their brother's house). He could have stopped and talked to her alone for hours and did not (very strange). My wife was not invited to the grave site service (she has since made up with her sister).

On the tape my wife told her sister (her now best friend and confident who for 3 and 1/2 years was public enemy number one), that she is not talking much to her brothers (yet she was telling me that she was). I find out on the tape that my wife has not support system. Now she is finding support in her sister who is one nasty broad who is saying this is all my fault and laughing about it.

I have been talking to my oldest BIL and he is beyond shocked. My wife's brothers have turned against her and she does not know it.

My wife asked me for my computer on Saturday night. She says I know you are looking at porn when you are away and I said yes I have. I gave her my computer. Then she wanted to give it back to me without checking it. I said keep it. I have nothing to hide, I have not hid it from you. I said I have always answered your questions, honestly. I said, the difference between me and you is this. You ask for something and I give it to you. I ask you and you stonewall me or you lie and you keep lying.

The tape revealed that she does not want to leave me. I of course did not hear what was said in my SIL's house or at the restaurants but my wife does want to work things out based upon the tape. BUT, it reveals that she is not remorseful, does not have much respect for me.

I went through the tape with her and she did not deny a thing. She sat an listened to me.

She told me that she wants her counseling to be secret and mine as well. I said no. That we both need to be open and share and i will have it no other way.

Anyway, I have spoken to her brothers and they are shocked. Her middle brother does not want to talk to her sister because he thinks she is nuts. They do not get that the very person who my wife should have not turned too is the very person who she has turned too. My BIL wants to speak to both of us and I am willing.

My BIL thinks my wife is going to do it again. He and the family still believe she had an A or A's when i was in Iraq.

Ask me why I staying? My counselor tells me I have not reached the breaking point yet. I don't know.

My wfie says she will answer my questions. Why have I not asked yet? If you had been in my shoes on Sunday and last night you would understand. It does not matter if I asked on Sunday, last night or a week from now. I do plan on asking some questions starting this week. She says she will answer them and not stonewall me. Tonight, I will start with some 
and then I will help her do the loan application via phone (keep in mind I live apart from my wife during the week). I will ask her about September 27th, 2011 and if she had sex with the OM in 1999. Depending on her responces, it will tell me if she is lying or not about stonewalling me.

I just about had acomplete mental collaspe.

My oldest BIL sees things as I see them. He is very concerned and feels that his sister is doing very little to makes things better and seems to be setting herself up to be in cheat mode again. Her other brothers see it as well. I could give details and may as I have time.

I am seeing a psychiatrist, a counselor and will be seeing two more counselors and be joining a group next week. 

This is all so fuc*ing messed up.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

ugg I am so sorry for you. I do not understand how someone could want to reconsile yet not be remorseful unless she is using you. I'll keep praying for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

CantSitStill said:


> ugg I am so sorry for you. I do not understand how someone could want to reconsile yet not be remorseful unless she is using you. I'll keep praying for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, Cant. I am not very open to be beaten up at this point for being such a fool.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

This totally sucks man. I don't know how you can trust the person she is with this latest development. I agree that seeking professional help will help you to process this ordeal in a constructive fashion. Also if you haven't done so already, please consider an emotional detachment a la 180 degrees - you need to become emotionally strong so that if and when you make a life altering decision, you'll be able to do it with confidence that it is the right decision for you.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Thorburn said:


> I have it on tape. My wife laughting with her sister about the A. Her mocking me, etc. It was horrible.


That's would've been a deal breaker to be honest.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Wow, Thor, this is one big messy soap opera!

I can't imagine how you must have felt listening to that recording. How can you be so sure that her desire to reconcile is sincere? What was it she said that convinced you of this?


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

morituri said:


> This totally sucks man. I don't know how you can trust the person she is with this latest development. I agree that seeking professional help will help you to process this ordeal in a constructive fashion. Also if you haven't done so already, please consider an emotional detachment a la 180 degrees - you need to become emotionally strong so that if and when you make a life altering decision, you'll be able to do it with confidence that it is the right decision for you.


Morituri, I am so broken right now I don't have much strength to do anything. I mean it. I got up at 4:30 yesterday and came to work. My wife got up and went to work as well. The houses we looked at last night were 15 miles from where I work. My wife drove 2 hours. She was happy to see me and I kept my cool and pretended everything was OK. We decided on the houses and she had to drive over two hours home.

She is the one who made the appointments so based upon this and the VAR she is committed to moving with me. 

My BIL has concerns and i will elaborate later about her keeping her job, their sister, etc.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Wow, Thor, this is one big messy soap opera!
> 
> I can't imagine how you must have felt listening to that recording. How can you be so sure that her desire to reconcile is sincere? What was it she said that convinced you of this?


I have almost two hours of conversation between her and her sister. Not once did they mention that she should leave or that she wanted to leave. She said, i just wish he (me would calm down and relax). She said her only concern with moving is I might be doing it to isolate her but she will not allow it. She nor her sister talked about a future without me. My wife talked about some of the things she has been doing to please me, etc.


Again, I do not know what they talked about in the house nor the restuarant.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Very sorry for what you are going through.

So the R has been a sham up to now. Do you actually think your wife is all in now? Or is she still playing you?

Honestly I don't think she wants a marriage with you. The multiple affairs, the lies, still denying you the truth you need to move forward, the disrespect of you and the laughter about her affairs, would all be too much for me. I think she is a classic cake-eater and will continue with terrible behavior in the future.

You have to decide why YOU want to stay with her. Why do you see a future with a woman who you cannot trust. When is enough finally enough?

Work on detaching emotionally from her now. Heal yourself on your terms and do not depend on her to help (she has now shown you her true self).

Do not buy a house with this woman at this time. I am afraid you may be in denial about the situation. You want so bad to R but she is not there with you. You may be blaming yourself for some extent for her behavior - don't.

Good luck.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Thorburn said:


> UI have it on tape. My wife laughting with her sister about the A. Her mocking me, etc. It was horrible.


This sums it up: No remorse. She put in a good acting performace though, Oscar quality in fact. But you know and we know what this is: *False R*.

Sorry you're going thru this, I was hoping you might be one of the success stories here. She seems to be permanently broken inside.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

So sorry Thorburn....so sorry. 

I have no words of wisdom as I am dealing with some b.s. too. I can only imagine how hurt, betrayed and upset you are for being lied to. Lying sucks. You think you might be able to get over it but when the trust is gone again for the 2nd or 3rd time...is there any way to get it back?


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

TDSC60 said:


> Very sorry for what you are going through.
> 
> So the R has been a sham up to now. Do you actually think your wife is all in now? Or is she still playing you?
> 
> ...


TDS - I am in denial. I want this to work. I only blame part of her behavior on my anger and that is only some of her current behavior not her A's.

Her saying that it was my porn usage that drove her to it I can't buy. My porn usage over the years was not excessive and it never replaced her. I understand her being hurt but like my BIL says, yea you looked at porn, many men do, but what she did was 1,000,000 times worse and is no excuse for what she did, over and over again. My BIL said her excuse makes no sense at all.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

At what point does this become a deal breaker for you? She's a serial cheater who is totally unremorseful, but can put up a great performance. She's STILL blameshifting, up to now. And her own brothers think that she's going to do it again...sooner or later. I'm all for R, but even I'm beginning to think she's a lost cause.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> I have almost two hours of conversation between her and her sister. Not once did they mention that she should leave or that she wanted to leave. She said, i just wish he (me would calm down and relax). She said her only concern with moving is I might be doing it to isolate her but she will not allow it. She nor her sister talked about a future without me. My wife talked about some of the things she has been doing to please me, etc.
> 
> 
> Again, I do not know what they talked about in the house nor the restuarant.


Thor, is there any chance she also knew about this car VAR and knew you would hear this stuff. Sorry, just checking. She knew about the other one, right? Are you 100% sure she didn't know about this one? Just a thought, paranoid, that's all. 

If not, now that you told her about the car VAR she will really be on the lookout for VARS everywhere. Also, she wanted to see your PC? Does she read/know about your posts here at TAM?


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> Ask me why I staying? My counselor tells me I have not reached the breaking point yet. I don't know.


Has your "counselor" told you what the breaking point is?

Your wife screwing multiple guys in front of your eyes? Humiliating you on national TV?


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I guess it's easy to give advice but to actually have to accept the truth is just too hurtful, I'm not gonna give you advice.. You already know and have heard all the advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Thor, is there any chance she also knew about this car VAR and knew you would hear this stuff. Sorry, just checking. She knew about the other one, right? Are you 100% sure she didn't know about this one? Just a thought, paranoid, that's all.
> 
> If not, now that you told her about the car VAR she will really be on the lookout for VARS everywhere. Also, she wanted to see your PC? Does she read/know about your posts here at TAM?


She does not know about my posts here and honestly I don't want her to see them but I have nothing to hide. I really don't want her to know about this site, it is one of my safe spots. 

I thought she might have found the VAR in the car. I don't think she did. The conversation with her sister was too raw. When the A was mentioned and she laughed about it if she knew she was being recorded she would not have done this.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

CantSitStill said:


> I guess it's easy to give advice but to actually have to accept the truth is just too hurtful, I'm not gonna give you advice.. You already know and have heard all the advice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Isnt this like an advice?


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> When the A was mentioned and she laughed about it if she knew she was being recorded she would not have done this.


Was it a nervous laugh or was she actually mocking your pain? 

People sometimes respond strangely in difficult circumstances. For instance, we have all heard of those who laugh at a funerals. And I have read (or recall from psych class back in college ) that seemly inappropriate emotional responses can be a defence mechanism for the emotionally immature.

That said, what you are dealing with is heart-breaking. To be given a chance to be forgiven and to save her family and she treats it as if it's a joke instead of a precious gift is disgusting and she needs a huge wake-up call.

I'm very, very sorry.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> TDS - I am in denial. I want this to work. I only blame part of her behavior on my anger and that is only some of her current behavior not her A's.
> 
> Her saying that it was my porn usage that drove her to it I can't buy. My porn usage over the years was not excessive and it never replaced her. I understand her being hurt but like my BIL says, yea you looked at porn, many men do, but what she did was 1,000,000 times worse and is no excuse for what she did, over and over again. My BIL said her excuse makes no sense at all.


Hey now- don't just excuse the porn stuff with the "many men do" line. It is really hurtful to some women and feels as much like a betrayal as it would if your wife were lusting after other men. That said, what she has done is a million times worse than porn. Maybe a billion times worse.

The problem is, it isn't a supposed to be a contest. It is supposed to be your marriage! 

You are obviously going forward with this new house --If that is the case, you should be looking forward to picking out your new house together and you are instead on edge about all of this drama, it seems like you'll be taking so much stress into this new space...

I am hoping for your sake, you can make it a sanctuary where true healing can take place.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Thorburn said:


> TDS - I am in denial. I want this to work. I only blame part of her behavior on my anger and that is only some of her current behavior not her A's.
> 
> Her saying that it was my porn usage that drove her to it I can't buy. My porn usage over the years was not excessive and it never replaced her. I understand her being hurt but like my BIL says, yea you looked at porn, many men do, but what she did was 1,000,000 times worse and is no excuse for what she did, over and over again. My BIL said her excuse makes no sense at all.


Listen to your BIL.

What jumped out at me was when you were talking about the VAR recording - how you were disrespected - how they were laughing about her affairs - how she thought that buying a house was you attempting to isolate her but it was not going to work. All this and what you hang your hat on is that you did not hear her say she wanted to leave you. Really? How about all the things that you did hear? Snap out of your denial and see things how they really are and not how you want or wish they could be.

Did she say she was in love with you?
Did she say she was proud of you as her husband?
Did she say she respected you as her husband or as an honest man?
Did she say she was truly sorry and remorseful for the pain she has and is still causing you?
Did she say ANYTHING good about you or the marriage?

Sometimes doctors make the worst patients. Wake up councilor/minister. You have seen so much pain in your career that you are not clearly seeing the whole picture of your own life.

I really think you need to not see or talk to her for a while. A couple of weeks minimum - a month would be better. Take stock of your life. Decide what you need to do to be happy. Then do it.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> She does not know about my posts here and honestly I don't want her to see them but I have nothing to hide. I really don't want her to know about this site, it is one of my safe spots.
> 
> I thought she might have found the VAR in the car. I don't think she did. The conversation with her sister was too raw. When the A was mentioned and she laughed about it if she knew she was being recorded she would not have done this.


Maybe, but she has won Oscars before... please take extra care.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Zanna said:


> Was it a nervous laugh or was she actually mocking your pain?
> 
> People sometimes respond strangely in difficult circumstances. For instance, we have all heard of those who laugh at a funerals. And I have read (or recall from psych class back in college ) that seemly inappropriate emotional responses can be a defence mechanism for the emotionally immature.
> 
> ...



With the VAR she found she found it the next day and it was ironic that she knew it was recording and when I was listening to it I know when she found it. I thought when I was listening to it that she might hove known about it because of the way conversations went on the phone and she did not take calls the way she normally did. So I thought that perhaps she did know about it.

The one in the car the conversation was not as if they were being recorded. Like I said, it was too raw, too spontaneous. If I am wrong on this then why would they have said what they said. It would have made no sense if they knew they were being recorded.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Sorry Thorburn. So sorry man. I'm not going to add anything to what everyone else has said, except this: you are getting played.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

TDSC60 said:


> Listen to your BIL.
> 
> What jumped out at me was when you were talking about the VAR recording - how you were disrespected - how they were laughing about her affairs - how she thought that buying a house was you attempting to isolate her but it was not going to work. All this and what you hang your hat on is that you did not hear her say she wanted to leave you. Really? How about all the things that you did hear? Snap out of your denial and see things how they really are and not how you want or wish they could be.
> 
> ...


She did not say anything positive about me and that is what pained me the most.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> Sorry Thorburn. So sorry man. I'm not going to add anything to what everyone else has said, except this: you are getting played.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bandit, thanks - my goal is to make this work and I know what everyone is saying. For me, it is all dependent on her becoming an open book and she is resisting.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> Bandit, thanks - my goal is to make this work and I know what everyone is saying. For me, it is all dependent on her becoming an open book and she is resisting.


I disagree because I care about you bro. This is a game to her. She is manipulating you and being cruel. Its almost sociopathic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

If you're a counselor, you're probably also a fixer. A problem solver. The sane one in your M. The mature one. You get the picture.

I've read and was told by my MC years ago, that when one partner overfuctions, the other is able to underfunction.

When you let someone fix their stuff and stop doing it for them, surprisingly many of them rise to the challenge. And if they don't, well I suppose therein lies your answer.

During counselling, my H even admitted that he was less mature and emotionally inept in comparison to me. The counsellor told me in a private session that I needed to stop fixing his life for him.

Our R was going well until one day about 6 weeks in, I was sharing my reservations and my doubts and he had the nerve to say, "I don't think you're every going to forgive me. We should probably just D." Then he started to cry. He also refused to go to our counselling session. Something in me just snapped and instead of reassuring him, I looked at him and said "I'm the one who was betrayed. You don't get to have doubts so spare me your Bullsh!t!" and then told him that if he EVER mentioned D to me again, he better have his lawyer on speed dial and the papers drawn up. I also said, "You broke this, you better damn well fix it because I am tired of cleaning up your mess! And we ARE going to counselling so get your damn shoes on now."

He stared at me in shock but he got his shoes on and then laughed because he said he's never heard me talk to him like that before. I don't say bullsh!t.

Stop fixing her.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Hey now- don't just excuse the porn stuff with the "many men do" line. It is really hurtful to some women and feels as much like a betrayal as it would if your wife were lusting after other men. That said, what she has done is a million times worse than porn. Maybe a billion times worse.
> 
> The problem is, it isn't a supposed to be a contest. It is supposed to be your marriage!
> 
> ...


Lost, thanks for your comments. I hear you about the porn.

I did not want the drama. The issue for me is I could list so many times my wife came up with things she was going to do and then turn around and not do it or tell me later that she only said it because that is what she thought I wanted to hear. And this is what is getting old. The lies, because that is what they are. Don't tell me that you are mending the fence with your sister and by the way I am not discussing us. I am only going there to help her through her grief. Then I find out it is all about talking about me. And then more lies about this and that. It has gotten old very fast.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> Thanks, Cant. I am not very open to be beaten up at this point for being such a fool.


Thor,

Youre not a fool. You want to believe her. You love her. You have alot of years together. You are not a fool. Dont say that. It takes guts and sheer will and determination to endure what you have. Sending prayers and good thoughts and a (((CTU hug)))


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Thorburn said:


> Lost, thanks for your comments. I hear you about the porn.
> 
> I did not want the drama. The issue for me is I could list so many times my wife came up with things she was going to do and then turn around and not do it or tell me later that she only said it because that is what she thought I wanted to hear. And this is what is getting old. The lies, because that is what they are. Don't tell me that you are mending the fence with your sister and by the way I am not discussing us. I am only going there to help her through her grief. Then I find out it is all about talking about me. And then more lies about this and that. It has gotten old very fast.


Denial (or stupidity if you prefer ) is doing the same thing, the same way, over and over again and expecting a different outcome.

She cheats - you forgive - hope she won't do it again.

She lies - you forgive - hope she won't do it again.

She cheats (again) and lies repeatedly - you forgive (again) - hope she has learned a lesson (this time) and won't do it again.

She lies - you forgive - she lies- you forgive (again)- she lies-you make excuses - she lies - you ignore her behavior and try to to avoid the simple truth that will not change - your wife is a lying, serial cheater and has been for years.

Sorry for being blunt and harsh, I know you are being torn apart TRYING TO R, TRYING TO JUSTIFY R, trying to excuse your wife's behavior. At some point you have to focus on yourself, not her and not the marriage. She simply may not be capable of being the wife you want. Stop beating yourself up.

You really have to think about yourself now in terms of moving on without her. You have to at least consider that this is what is going to happen eventually. Remember the Boy Scout motto "Be Prepared".


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Well the thing he son't know is whether she is cheating now..yes she did in the past..it's her behavior about her past that's not right. Glad you confronted her about it but what to do next is the question..she found the vars so how can he really trust her I do not know
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You are focused on how she doesn't want to leave. The thing is she was quite happy to cheat and not leave then either. I can't help but worry that since she has no remorse, no empathy , and no respect that she has no motivation to not cheat again.

I say this not to hurt you, but offer my interpretation. Your wife has been cheating a long time. It's part of her self chosen way of life and she doesn't feel at all bad about it. She has no intention of leaving the benefits of the marriage, but she has lost respect and empathy for her husband. Perhaps this is a coping mechansim to enable her cheating. She fundamentally doesn't think it's wrong, as long as she comes home afterward. Right now you are stressed, angry, and watching her which is stopping her hooking up for strange. She hopes you will settle down and stop punishing her. But then what? She doesn't think her chosen lifestyle is wrong or evil or hurtful. It's you that has the problem with it!

The BIL are against cheating and won't support her, but let me guess SlL is more open isn't she? 

I very strongly suggest you need to watch her like a hawk for the rest of your marriage until she actually shows remorse empathy and respect. Until those 3 things are in her, she will cheat again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

This might be a little harsh Thorburn but take it as you will.

I only feel sad for you. The proof is front of you but you refuse to look at it. I am still not convinced of the reasons(who am I anyway) that you gave us for the R'ing with your wife. Your wife s not R material. She cheated on you repeatedly and ou forgave her. She is toxic and she is playing you. How many more blows can you take?

Even before seeing your post today, I was prepared to type this

If she lies again , I wouldn't be surprised

If she cheats again, i wouldn't be surprised.

If you take her back again, I wouldn't be surprised.

Her total breakdown on the D-day made your ego feel good and you decided to R on wrong grounds.

This has gone way beyond what any BS should do to save the marriage. Listen to your BIL. Her own family hates her. This woman won't bring any more happiness in your life


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

She doesn't want to leave, it's likely never wanted to, she's a cake eater. They won't leave, unless they are forced (dumped), but they won't stop either. They reserve that ''right''. She put it cristal clear:


> She said her only concern with moving is I might be doing it to isolate her but she will not allow it


''Isolation'' means, in her mind, stopping doing what she wants when she wants. ''He won't keep me from cheating on him''.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> Lost, thanks for your comments. I hear you about the porn.
> 
> I did not want the drama. The issue for me is I could list so many times my wife came up with things she was going to do and then turn around and not do it or tell me later that she only said it because that is what she thought I wanted to hear. And this is what is getting old. The lies, because that is what they are. Don't tell me that you are mending the fence with your sister and by the way I am not discussing us. I am only going there to help her through her grief. Then I find out it is all about talking about me. And then more lies about this and that. It has gotten old very fast.


Thor, my husband does this. He tries to say the right thing. Somewhere along the line they learn that the truth isn't good enough. We need them to be honest. To be real. I even told my H that I can handle any truth you have, just not another lie.

But deep down, they don't believe this. So they make something up that sounds good. Half the time, they even believe it! 

I watched it happen the other day. He was late shipping something out on ebay. He was trying to come up with a good reason to tell him why it was 3 days late (he had gotten busy). I said, "Why don't you just send an email that says the date it was shipped and the tracking number."

"That sounds good."

Because it is simply the truth. But I am telling you, it was painful to watch him struggle with trying to come up with the right thing to say. I learned a LOT right then and there.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Thor,

None of this sounds good if Im being honest but only you can decide if/when you've had all you can take. I do worry for YOU though. Buying a house with her could cause financial problems in the event you do end up D ing her. Its another thing to deal with. I think she is going to have to do WAY better here, and honestly I dont know if thats gonna happen. I think unfortunately you got a look at the 'real' her on that VAR. Its time to take care of yourself.

Im so so sorry Thor. Im thinking of you. If you want to PM me, I'll be happy to help if I can.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> Thor,
> 
> None of this sounds good if Im being honest but only you can decide if/when you've had all you can take.* I do worry for YOU though. Buying a house with her could cause financial problems* in the event you do end up D ing her. Its another thing to deal with. I think she is going to have to do WAY better here, and honestly I dont know if thats gonna happen. I think unfortunately you got a look at the 'real' her on that VAR. Its time to take care of yourself.
> 
> Im so so sorry Thor. Im thinking of you. If you want to PM me, I'll be happy to help if I can.




I agree with not looking seriously at buying a house now with her. Your personal situation is so unstable right now, you could end up in a serious financial mess.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

aug said:


> I agree with not looking seriously at buying a house now with her. Your personal situation is so unstable right now, you could end up in a serious financial mess.


I 3rd this!!!!!!

I bought a house with my H when he was 3 months into his affair. I had no idea he was cheating on me..i mean we were buying a house!

Now 5 years into R, with the housing market in the toilet and D on the horizon, its going to be a crappy mess for both of us probably. 

DO NOT BUY A HOUSE WITH HER YET!! YOU WILL FOREVER HATE IT AND ALWAYS FEEL THE BETRAYAL NO MATER WHAT ROOM YOU ARE IN IF SHE IS INDEED CHEATING AGAIN

Stay strong...TAM is here for you


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Hey, I agree with you guys, but it looks like hes dead set on doing it! If he does, I hope it has a state of the art security system, with cameras at the gates!


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Hey, I agree with you guys, but it looks like hes dead set on doing it! If he does, I hope it has a state of the art security system, with cameras at the gates!


Come on LWC. He is miserable here and he's been thru ALOT. He's been with her for 30 years. Give him some compassion.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> Come on LWC. He is miserable here and he's been thru ALOT. He's been with her for 30 years. Give him some compassion.


Hey, CTU, I am! I feel for him BIGTIME. I just think you all telling him not to buy that house isn't gonna do any good. 

My heart is with you Thor, and if I was him, that's what I'd want. No kidding.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Hey, CTU, I am! I feel for him BIGTIME. I just think you all telling him not to buy that house isn't gonna do any good.
> 
> My heart is with you Thor, and if I was him, that's what I'd want. No kidding.


Oh I agree. He may not be ready to make this break. Give up the idea, at least temporarily. To look at HER. 

I know we all mean well. My heart just aches for him. I'd want honesty too. Youre right.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

That inborn loyalty and sense of duty that made Thorburn a great soldier is actually acting to his detriment now. 

His wife deserves niether of these things in my opinion.

......Man he really loves this woman.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> That inborn loyalty and sense of duty that made Thorburn a great soldier is actually acting to his detriment now.
> 
> His wife deserves niether of these things in my opinion.
> 
> ......Man he really loves this woman.


Yes. Im envious of her. Wish she'd snap out of it and realize what she's got. The rest of us would kill for it.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> Yes. Im envious of her. Wish she'd snap out of it and realize what she's got. The rest of us would kill for it.


Pathetic how backwards she is isn't it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> Pathetic how backwards she is isn't it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Definitely , I wish I could count on my H to be even 25% as loyal and committed as he is to her.. 

As the saying goes: " All the good ones are taken."


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Thorburn,



> The tape revealed that she does not want to leave me. I of course did not hear what was said in my SIL's house or at the restaurants but my wife does want to work things out based upon the tape. BUT, it reveals that she is not remorseful, does not have much respect for me.


Your actions towards your wife post DDay are courageous.

I know how upset you are and you have every right to be. But please know this, what you see as your wife not being remorseful and disrespectful towards you is her disrespecting herself. 

It is not you. You are doing everything in your power to reconcile. And she still lies and stonewalls you.

I truly hope she becomes open and finally tells you everything truthfully. Because if she can't do it with you and for you what kind of marriage can she truly offer you!!!!

*She should not only want to be with you but she should want to love you like you deserve to be loved. Do not settle for any less!!!!*

You are in my prayers Thorburn. Not because you need them, but because you deserve them.

You love her so much, I hope she truly sees that by your actions and can finally reciprocate.

Respectfully,

HM64


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Rent a house until you know she doesn't return to her cheating ways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> You are focused on how she doesn't want to leave. The thing is she was quite happy to cheat and not leave then either. I can't help but worry that since she has no remorse, no empathy , and no respect that she has no motivation to not cheat again.
> 
> I say this not to hurt you, but offer my interpretation. Your wife has been cheating a long time. It's part of her self chosen way of life and she doesn't feel at all bad about it. She has no intention of leaving the benefits of the marriage, but she has lost respect and empathy for her husband. Perhaps this is a coping mechansim to enable her cheating. She fundamentally doesn't think it's wrong, as long as she comes home afterward. Right now you are stressed, angry, and watching her which is stopping her hooking up for strange. She hopes you will settle down and stop punishing her. But then what? She doesn't think her chosen lifestyle is wrong or evil or hurtful. It's you that has the problem with it!
> 
> ...


Shaggy, thanks. I am very torn. It is horrible. And yes the SIL was involved with her cheating 13 years ago, they were both online on the same site. There is a long history with her sister and her sister never brought good things into her life but was always a bad example. That is why my oldest BIL is so disturbed, he says that my wife turning to this sister is the last person she should turn because she will support my wife no matter what she does. My oldest BIL stated that the people that my wife should have turned to are the very ones who would have held her accountable and questioned her actions. He says he does not understand this. That is my wife wants to come clean then turn to those who can truely help and not the one or ones who will not only give her a pass but agree that what she does is OK.

You are correct and that is why my world has turned upside down all over again. I can't watch her forever. I was hoping that using the VARs would put to rest my doubts. My gut was telling me something was not right and I was correct.

Her problem is secrecy, she wants to keep everything that she does in IC a secret, she wants to talk to her sister in secret, her long lost friend from over 30 years ago that she hooked up with a secret, etc. I told her that this is a hugh issue. When she got involved with the OM last year she said she wanted a secret friend. She can't have secrets and that is what I have been telling her that she needs to be open. She says i need to relax and I can't under these circumstances.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

My BIL agrred with me when I said her telling me to relax is asking me not to snoop and get upset when I find things. My BIL says this is so stupid that the very thing that she needs to do to bring healing is the very thing she is fighting me and he says there has to be no secrets and he said that this is a big part of her problem and the best thing she could do is come running to me and say, Hey, I learned this about me in IC today, but instead she will not talk about it saying her counselor told her that they need to keep things secret and I know this is bull. The counselor would tell her that everything they say is confidential not to keep secrets from your husband.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

You aren't serious about buying a house with are you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> You aren't serious about buying a house with are you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bandit, I am. She will not sell our house. If we did we would be debt free. We built it 15 years ago. My sons when they were 10 and 12 would help. My youngest is now in a position to rent it. he asked us not to sell it saying he helped build it. I am OK with that. In our housing market we would make out OK if we sold our house. Houses are selling here, and with our landscaping, small orchard, deck, inprovements, etc. our house is actually worth more and is more desirable then the ones that have sold here recently.

Here where I am renting there is a glut of houses. Where we have been looking to buy there is a glut and though the one we hoped to buy back in January the owners took our offer and it was 100k under their original listing price. We were ignorant of condition, etc with the VA loan process and have learned. The houses we are looking at now and we are in the process of putting down an offer soon will all meet the VA standards.

having said all that, if this marriage crumbles, I will be in a better position if I buy a house. Renting here is very expensive, three to five times what a mortgage will be for me. I crunched the numbers and even if my wife decides to bail or if I call it quits I will have a house. If D happens (not something she wants) I will be further ahead.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Gotcha.

Sounds like you've put thought into it. That's good.

How much longer are you giving this reconcilliation? Seems like since finding out what she said on the VAR you are back to square one again. Franky I just don't see you guys making any progress.

I wonder....is your wife a people pleaser? Did she say those things about her affair because she meant them or just to please her sister? Seems like your wife plays people instead of being honest with them.

Honesty is a real problem for your wife. Her family has watched the pattern all her life and I think you need to listen to them more. But mostly she is dishonest with herself.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> Sounds like you've put thought into it. That's good.
> 
> ...



She told me she can't say no to people, so yes a people pleaser. But it goes beyond that. I think I said this somewhere before that last year we bought tickets to a ball game from a guy. My wife was in contact with him. Then this year he contacted her again about tickets. It went from hey i got tickets to my wife sending him smiley faces and telling him about our nieces wedding, etc. After she told him we could not go to the game due to the wedding. My wife told me he is fat and old. I confronted her about it and said why did you not just keep it to business. I said this is your problem. You start flirting. She says she does not. I read the exchange between them to her. I said if I got these texts I would think that you were flirting with me. I really do not think she gets how serious her issues with boundaries are.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Is it possible that you may have co-dependency issues?


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## ShootMePlz! (Oct 5, 2008)

*She told me she can't say no to people, so yes a people pleaser*

Unless its you then saying NO is not a problem!!!:scratchhead:


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Consider that many people who have serious issues do not want to address let alone acknowledge them. It is only after they hit rock bottom that many finally realize that they do and how much they are in need of help. Your wife may be one of these people and her not facing the serious consequence of divorce for all her affairs, has prevented her from facing her destructive issues.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

She will continue to say no to YOU because she knows you will never leave. We want what we can't have and we ignore what we can.

Show her you have some self respect and just go buy a house for YOU. Make her prove to you that she deserves to come with you. You will NEVER get a real wife if you don't take this step and prove to her that you will leave.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I think keeping what she talks about in therapy secret isn't entirely unreasonable - though it is worrisome.

Her wanting secrets from you in her life, her comings and goings etc is no reasonable. Especially given her history.

From your descriptions I really think what I said about her being a long term cheater might be on the money. Like a drunk, she's missing the drink and the addiction, and if she gets to secretly hang out with her drinking buddies , she will be cheating again before long.

I don't have words to help you change her mind on this,all I can do is say that your gut is right that there is a problem here.

Having to overcome old wants and desires and patterns of behavior is a huge part of the heavy lifting the WS has to do in R. She's slipping. Like a horse being broke she is fighting the reins. 

You do need to hold on strong and not negotiate.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I do think that getting together will help a lot. She needs someone in her life and with you gone so much she is too much alone. So that should help, but you've also got to watch her and hold those reins tight for a while.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> I do think that getting together will help a lot. She needs someone in her life and with you gone so much she is too much alone. So that should help, but you've also got to watch her and hold those reins tight for a while.


Shaggy, this is right on. I am not saying my wife would have changed if I would be around more. I do know that me living apart from her during the week is not helping and has done damage. I am in my apartment or here at work and my mind races. I called her and if she does not answer I panic. Is she with someone? Where is she? Etc. I was getting better at this and then the set back last week. I was in panic mode this morning. When I finally talked to her I made myself talk about mundane things. We are hooking up tonight to do some shopping for our beach trip this weekend. We are meeting half-way.
The damage caused was me getting so angry and when I saw her I would almost immediately bring something up and she got tired of it. I get that. Seriously, I got out of control. It was because I could not be with her to see her body language, or her see the pain I am going through. My wife was not there with me when I was in lots of pain. We only talk on the phone and it just sucks.

I still think there is hope if we are together. I am not going into this completely blindly. For me being together would validate where she is at in this relationship.

I ask you to bear with me for a moment. If I would have been around I would not have started drinking. On d-day I drove home 3 hours (I am glad it took me three hours because I called friends and family who calmed me down or there would be two dead bodies). After the confrontation (hours long with my wife and included my sons) I drove back to my apartment. I started drinking and would be drunk everytime I got home on Fridays for months. I was explosive. Had I been home I would not have drank. I drank because I was in so much pain on the long drive home the booze helped me take that pain away. My wife got scared. My boys who helped me bust their mother turned on me. None of this would have happened had I been living apart from her. We would have had time to talk, cuddle, make love, etc. Then I would come home having sexual needs and my anger turned my wife away from me and I did not get what I needed and my wife got an angry man. I get it. I had a right to be angry but I am telling you it was over the top for months and it was due in part because I only had two days a week to be with her. If we had been together during this time I seriously think things would be different.

I also think my wife's attitude would be somewhat different (maybe my delusion) if she did not have to deal with an angry man. I think part of it for her is why bother, I was having fun and now my husband is an angry bitter man and it is horrible being around this guy so I am going to protect myself, and take care of me. I think part of her thinking is, it was enjoyable, stress free to be with the OM, and yes it was wrong (i think that was her thoughts in the beginning) but my husband is out of control and has been for months, why do I need to change. He is going to leave me, so I now really need to focus on me. I do think that is part of her current thhinking.

I am not giving her a pass on this but if I had been home everyday I do doubt that we would be where we are at.

My timeline is this. Buy the house, move in together and see where we are at. I would like to see where we are at two months after we move into the new house. 

I will be with my dog (only see Rudy on weekends) and my oldest son will be living with us.

That is what I want to do at this time.

Yes I am at a breaking point but because of you folks I have not cracked and I almost cracked this morning.

I am not asking anyone here to agree with me, several of you are too mean to give me any break anyways (tongue in cheek), but you all are a bunch of great folks and without you I would have blown my head off. I am not suicidal so don't worry about that. Honestly I have thought about dying (I told my psychiatrist this last week) but never thought about killing myself. She is not worth that.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Be careful, stay vigilant and strong. 

No one can question wanting to stay with her and work on your marriage other than you. You know what to do...you've seen the signs. You will know. And if you aren't sure, post to TAM to keep your sanity. I know alot of people have really helped me these crazy few weeks.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

morituri said:


> Is it possible that you may have co-dependency issues?


My wife is reading a book on co-dependency that her IC gave her. I was all over this back in the 90's when I was a chaplain doing counseling. Here is my take on co-dependency. The model fits well within the AA framework. The concept of co-dependency came out of AA. It fits. Then folks started to use co-denpendcy for everything. Clinically it is all over the place and contradictory when used for alot of the things folks are using it. But one checklist I saw on codenpendency showed many of the things fit my wife. So that is the tact my wife's IC is taking with her. As a clinician I see that she fits into the broad grouping of codendent but it does not help me at all if she does not deal with her issues.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Nothing wrong with wanting to give your marriage another shot. Just make sure you are educating yourself on all the correct steps.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> We would have had time to talk, cuddle, make love, etc. Then I would come home having sexual needs and my anger turned my wife away from me and I did not get what I needed and my wife got an angry man. I get it. I had a right to be angry but I am telling you it was over the top for months and it was due in part because I only had two days a week to be with her. If we had been together during this time I seriously think things would be different.
> .


I completely understand this as I experienced it as well. In the early weeks after D-day and the months following, my H had to travel a lot for business. When he was gone, my anger would be magnified because he wasn't meeting my emotional needs. He kept in touch with me often by text, sending me his GPS location so it wasn't that I was worried about the A reigniting but the distance increased my rage and by the time he got home, I would be thinking about divorce. For a successful R, I can understand why it's important to spend as much time together as possible. After a couple days, I would feel better but the minute he left town again, my anger would be back. Actually rage, not anger.

In the end, my H decided to postpone some of the less important trips and that helped immensely.

I hope you can find a way to be with your wife everyday throughout the week.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Zanna said:


> I completely understand this as I experienced it as well. In the early weeks after D-day and the months following, my H had to travel a lot for business. When he was gone, my anger would be magnified because he wasn't meeting my emotional needs. He kept in touch with me often by text, sending me his GPS location so it wasn't that I was worried about the A reigniting but the distance increased my rage and by the time he got home, I would be thinking about divorce. For a successful R, I can understand why it's important to spend as much time together as possible. After a couple days, I would feel better but the minute he left town again, my anger would be back. Actually rage, not anger.
> 
> In the end, my H decided to postpone some of the less important trips and that helped immensely.
> 
> I hope you can find a way to be with your wife everyday throughout the week.


I agree. My h is home all day everyday right now and it has helped SOOOO much. It shows his committment. His willingness to give up EVERYTHING to fix this. I know he means it and that is what I hold on to. So I think TIME together is imperative.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Zanna said:


> I completely understand this as I experienced it as well. In the early weeks after D-day and the months following, my H had to travel a lot for business. When he was gone, my anger would be magnified because he wasn't meeting my emotional needs. He kept in touch with me often by text, sending me his GPS location so it wasn't that I was worried about the A reigniting but the distance increased my rage and by the time he got home, I would be thinking about divorce. For a successful R, I can understand why it's important to spend as much time together as possible. After a couple days, I would feel better but the minute he left town again, my anger would be back. Actually rage, not anger.
> 
> In the end, my H decided to postpone some of the less important trips and that helped immensely.
> 
> I hope you can find a way to be with your wife everyday throughout the week.


Thanks. Trying R for me is tough enough but being away is difficult. Thanks for your thoughts because you do understand.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> I agree. My h is home all day everyday right now and it has helped SOOOO much. It shows his committment. His willingness to give up EVERYTHING to fix this. I know he means it and that is what I hold on to. So I think TIME together is imperative.


That is what I am hoping for.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Thor, I know what you mean about dying but not suicidal. Sometimes I would lay down and think I was going to die. I think people can die from a broken heart.

And it is true that we think of them and their carefree trysts with non-angry people. But this is one of those destructive cycles. 

They wanna have fun, they stray, we get angry, they wanna have fun, they stay away from angry.....blah blah blah The wife who doesn't like porn is in the same cycle-- he wants sex, he uses porn, she finds porn, feels not "sexy/good" = she doesn't feel loved, she withdraws from sex, he wants sex, blah, blah, blah

I think of these destructive cycles as negative, endless loops, like the ones in martial arts. But there are also constructive/creative cycles, though, right?? I keep forgetting about those!

The ones that heal, create and restore vitality. Instead of destructive:

* Wood parts Earth;
* Earth absorbs Water;
* Water quenches Fire;
* Fire melts Metal;
* Metal chops Wood.

The cycle is constructive:

* Wood feeds Fire;
* Fire creates Earth (ash);
* Earth bears Metal;
* Metal carries Water (as in a bucket or tap);
* Water nourishes Wood.

If I could only figure out how to do this emotionally....... anyway, I don't know why this concept came to me reading your thread, but for some reason it did.

Also, are you guys doing the 15 hours a week needed for R? Isn't that hard to do if you are living apart?


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Thor, I know what you mean about dying but not suicidal. Sometimes I would lay down and think I was going to die. I think people can die from a broken heart.
> 
> And it is true that we think of them and their carefree trysts with non-angry people. But this is one of those destructive cycles.
> 
> ...


Man, I loved what you wrote so insightful.

Living apart is hel*, too many mind games going on in my head. My wife did hook up with me last night. We met halfway, went shopping and out for dinner. It was not everything I wanted but at least she made an effort to go out of her way.

Just the weekends for R is not enough.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

You may have explained why earlier but it did not register in my head.

Why cant she live with you during the weekdays?


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

aug said:


> You may have explained why earlier but it did not register in my head.
> 
> Why cant she live with you during the weekdays?


I took a promotion in October and rent a place near work. Our home is two to three hours away. I just did not want to drive every day. She was already into the A. We are looking to buy a second home.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Did you get rid of that big trigger, the Cherokee?


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

hey Thor, How ya doin today?


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Had a very good talk on Friday. It is hard to explain here but when my wife said she is willing to sell the house if we need to do so it showed a big change of heart. This is a huge move on her part. We discussed quite a bit. I feel we have made a great leap forward. At this point we will keep the house and are in the process of buying a second one, there was some doubt last week about keeping our current home, but that does not matter to my story. We had a great day at the beach on Saturday and we worked most of the day on Sunday, starting the ground work for a brick patio. I worked my butt off with the shovel, pick, digging iron and I am not sore. Even in the heat I could have done more. It was the most relaxed that I have been. 

Whatever happened my wife turned a corner and I am not sure what caused it.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

She already turned quite a few corners. hopefully, it will be her last one.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think it was you educating yourself on how to treat the situation and not reverting to past involuntary reactions. In other words, you were a smarter person and she responded.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

That's great, hope things continue to look up
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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