# short courtships



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i am trying to write a paper for my institute i study at... i am comparing the divorce rate between western civilization, middle eastern civilization, and eastern civilization. i will be discussing the reasons why people get divorced, and the reasons why people stay together.

so, my question is this: how many of you had short courtships, lasting half a year or less. and of those that did, how many ended in divorce? what was the primary reason you divorced, or what was the primary reason you didn't(if your still together)?


i myself married after knowing my wife for three weeks. i think we went on 6 or so dates... something like that. neither of us were "in love" at the time, and we both knew it. to be honest, we didn't really even like each other when we got married. our idea of marriage was something that was difficult and required a lot of work. so, the problems we faced in our first couple years were pretty much expected. i didnt like her much when i married her, but i learned to love her, because i wanted to. the same with her.

that was five years ago, and our marriage has been getting better and better every year. nowadays, she gives me butterflies. i really cant get enough of her... couldnt stand her at the beginning though.

is our story unusual? if so, why?

its a difficult topic to talk about.... 

whats your opinion?


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

I've given my story on here several times. I'm not sure I have time to write it again in much detail.

Nutshell:

I proposed to her about 2 weeks after we met. We were married less than 3 months after we met. We're coming up on our 29th anniversary. Concering the "East vs. West" we are the house where East Met West (With a tip of the hat to Mr. Kipling.) I am from the midwestern part of the US originally. My wife is from Korea. We met and were married in Korea.

It's not difficult for us to talk about. We think our story is pretty neat. I will say, though, some of my friends were taking bets on how many months it would take before we were divorced.

We haven't been without challenges, but have been very happy together. We reaffirm to each other often that we are best friends. I know I am certainly happy in our situation.

*EDIT:* If you're researching a paper for this, I'd be interested in what your stats and findings are at the end of the paper. Will you be able to share that, and your research techniques with us at the conclusion?


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

@shy_guy: That was what my family was doing with Asla'dain and myself...one pool was for how many months it would take us to get divorced and the other pool was for how long until I was pregnant. 

Everyone lost the "divorce" pool (longest bet was for 6 months) and my brother won the "pregnant" pool with a bet of 6 months. LOL. 

I guess in the end, we won the "divorce" pool, because here in a couple of months, my mother is treating us to an extended trip to Disney World.


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

Met in march. Proposed in September, but knew we were getting married a month or two prior. Married the following march. Been together almost 21 years. Been tough at times but just recently got back on track in a big way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## omega (Aug 2, 2011)

My husband proposed to me four days after we met and we were married just shy of 5 months after we met. We fell VERY hard in love immediately when we met, literally on day one.

I have never questioned or doubted my decision as it was absolutely the smartest thing I EVER did (and I am not spontaneous at all, in fact it was completely out of character for me, having been in one 5 yr relationship and one 4 yr relationship neither ending in an engagement, before that). We are more in love every day, today I can say for certain that as crazy about each other as we were then, it was nothing compared to what we feel now. Tears come to my eyes daily when I look at him, I still can't believe he's real.

Of course it's only been 4 years so I don't know the future. But we have decided not to have children in order to keep the focus of our marriage on us as we are too busy being in love and have no interest in involving other people in our private business. 

As far as east/west, we are both westerners, I'm American and he's Western European (we live in his country, which is also where we met) and we are both atheists. No social or religious influence affected our decision to marry as we consider marriage a purely personal thing and for that reason eloped and not even our parents found out until it was done.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

from white papers and such, and talking to a couple professors, im starting to get the idea that the primary reason for divorce starts with the expectations of those getting married.

for instance, in america, we have this idea of what love is supposed to be like. its that "head over heals" high that most of us experience at the beginning of our relationships. since we dont have a decent word for it in english, ill use the arabic word, neshwa. chemically, that cannot last forever. after two to four years, our dopamine receptors deplete and we "fall out of love". thats usually when people get divorced, between the 2-4 year mark. so, if most people know their spouses for 2 years, and then get married, then they will experience the death of the neshwa, during the most difficult year, statistically.

funny thing though, that period of neshwa is probably the worst time to make life decisions, because all that dopemine suppresses the part of your brain associated with logic. 

all this leads me to wonder, how many people who divorce would instead decide to tough it out if they knew there was a biological reason for the way they feel? if they knew that the crappy feelings they encounter were literally a guaranteed thing that everyone HAS to go through at some point?

in westernized developed countries, it seems that there is a false expectation that you must be "in love" with your spouse, or something is wrong. so, the "i love you but im not in love with you" speech actually holds merit when with folks when it really shouldn't, since its inevitable and temporary. 

i guess that's where i had an advantage. my wife and i had absolutely no delusions about feeling in love. we didn't like each other, but both decided to treat each other with respect and work on making our time together as enjoyable as we could. when things were tough, it didn't shake us because we never expected anything else to begin with.

everything else seems to hinge on that basic understanding of what marriage is supposed to be. in the middle east, there is a horrible stigma against divorce, so they will do just about anything to prevent it. and since they often don't get married while under the influence of the neshwa,(often arranged) they usually have realistic expectations.

personally, i have never felt the neshwa. i never got the head over heals in love feeling, ever, in my life. so, it didn't bother me to marry someone i didn't love romantically. that doesn't mean i am any less devoted to my wife, and it doesn't mean that i don't love her, just that i never got that emotional high.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> for instance, in america, we have this idea of what love is supposed to be like. its that "head over heals" high that most of us experience at the beginning of our relationships. since we dont have a decent word for it in english, ill use the arabic word, neshwa. chemically, that cannot last forever. after two to four years, our dopamine receptors deplete and we "fall out of love". thats usually when people get divorced, between the 2-4 year mark. so, if most people know their spouses for 2 years, and then get married, then they will experience the death of the neshwa, during the most difficult year, statistically.
> 
> funny thing though, that period of neshwa is probably the worst time to make life decisions, because all that dopemine suppresses the part of your brain associated with logic.
> 
> ...


Interesting perspective, I have thought about it because I have been exposed to couples who have been in arranged marriages , and were very successful. Older couples who have been together and still in love after 30 years.

My wife and I were friends long before we decided to get together.
But when we were talking about getting together , she insisted that the only way it was going to happen , was if we were going to get married. If I wasn't interested in marriage , then she wasn't interested in a relationship.
I agreed to her terms, not because I was madly in love , but because I knew that she was the type of woman that would make me a good wife.
We got married one year later , and we have been for 18 years.

Almost everyone warned her and predicted it wouldn't last , when the found out that we were planning to get married , from the beginning.
But were still going strong.


I think that even if two people are a perfect match , marriage is hard work , because it is a strict social construct that hasn't evolved much over the years.
We as humans aren't naturally monogamous . Were actually fighting against biology when we commit to marriage, that's why I think its dangerous to depend to heavily on chemistry or feelings.

Of course chemistry has its place, but that should be left to the individual person and not society to dictate what role it plays in the choice to get married. IMO , Western societies seem to place a lot of emphasis on the chemistry. While I don't think this is wrong or right, I just feel that we sometimes confuse romance with chemistry and attraction.
All of these are grey areas and quite subjective .
But in the end, I don't think one system is inherently better than the other , ie : Eastern vs Western , long vs short courtships , because of nuances like cultural relativity , legal issues and social constructs.

It will be interesting to see the conclusion of your research paper. 

Best wishes.


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

We are a Western couple and married after 5 months.

We remain married 23 years later.

We have had some big issues and the marriage nearly broke down earlier this year, but we have reconciled and are now doing well.

When we married I liked my husband very much, and was very attracted to him, but I was not "in love" with him. As far as I know he was in love with me. I was still in love with my first husband but that was an absolutely awful relationship - he was an alcoholic, drug addict and compulsive liar. So for my second marriage I used my head and found someone compatible with me in many ways. Kind of like an arranged marriage, I suppose. As our marriage progressed my love grew and in the end we have (I hope) been strong enough to weather the storms and come out the other side.

My own parents are both western but although they have never outright admitted it they did not marry because they were deeply "in love" as far as I can tell. They had various practical reasons for choosing one another. Their relationship has lasted for nearly 50 years now.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

ok, after doing a lot of research...

there are a whole lot of reasons why eastern cultures experience lower divorce rates than western cultures.

lets start with the first one... the basis for the marriage.
in the west, you marry someone because you love them. problem is, people get married during that period of limerence, which has been commonly referred to here as "the fog". its the feeling of a new relationship. in the west, many, if not most people, believe that the feeling, which i call the neshwa, is an important basis of marriage. it cannot last forever, so when it ends, couples are often confused and often think that the love has ended. it shows a false expectation. biologically speaking, that feeling cannot last forever. most people in the west date for around two years before marrying. well, the period of limerence only lasts for three years, so the third year of limerance would end up being the first year of marriage. i think this is one of the contributing factors that makes the first year of marriage the most dangerous year, in terms of divorce.
in the east, this is not an issue. since engagements are usually very short and marriages are often arranged, this feeling is not considered, since it is already known that they will be marrying someone that they do not have those feelings for. in their case, the only type of love they are bringing to the table is the "unconditional love" which is a choice. so, both of the parties agree to love the other out of choice, regardless of who they are. while it may not seem ideal in the western world, it certainly does set the relationship up to be positive overall.

next comes the individual issues that arise during marriage. 
first, lets start with money.
finances is a very common source of dispute in the western world. part of the reason is because we get married without regard to our financial situation. in other words, we get married for love, and not because we are ready. that leads to situations where finances can become an issue. in the eastern world, marriage is more often planned out, so finances are already taken care of. in the middle east, for example, its hard for a man to get married unless he can show that he can financially support a family. why is that? its because the family of the bride are usually the ones that give the green light for the marriage. 

next is the area of house hold disputes. 
in the west, problems can arise from everyday disputes. such as, who is going to do the dishes, cook, clean, take care of the kids, etc. in the east, these rolls are already culturally assigned. its already expected that the man will take care of making a living for the family and the wife will run the house. in the west though, these roles are not defined. so, when a man marries a woman, he really doesnt know if she is willing to accept the role that he thinks she should play, and vice versa. this leads to conflict in the marriage because both people feel they are right. unless they sit down and agree to who will do what, the conflicts will usually arise. 
these kinds of conflicts are far less common in eastern marriages because the culture determines what a marriage should be and makes it very clear. women take care of the house, men take care of the source of living. those who do not agree to this are ascribing to a western idea. 

the last thing im going to hit on right now is culture. 
in the west, it is very easy to get a divorce(compared to the east). those who get a divorce are generally not looked down upon. in our culture, it is perfectly acceptable to get a divorce when it becomes obvious that two people are horrible for each other. its also usually accepted to get a divorce when one partner is not meeting the other partners needs. 
in the east though, this is looked at as a failure upon both the husband and the wife. it is expected that they will find a way to maintain their marriage until they die. this idea even goes back to the very basis of the reason for getting married to begin with... they dont bet married because of how they feel. they get married for much more practical reasons. so, they work really freaking hard to find ways to survive a bad marriage or to enjoy a good marriage.

unfortunately, from those from the middle east that i have spoken to, it also leads to a disconnect between husband and wife. husbands can take it for granted that their wives will never leave them, so they sometimes become complacent. but, at the same time, i find that they have a strong drive to make their marriage livable and acceptable to them, because divorce is just too much shame to bear.


now, im not advocating one culture over the other, but i do think that western society can learn a thing or two from the east and middle east when it comes to marriage. for instance, the basis for marriage in the middle east has nothing to do with feelings. that means that its already assumed that both partners have to learn how to respect and love each other. there are some issues that conflict with western ideas, however... eastern and middle eastern cultures often place less importance on equality, since it predisposes a role for women and men. that leads to a whole range of issues that are far less common in the west. for instance, since women are expected to be wives, the culture can be a large obstacle for women that want something else in life. 

but my focus is marriage, so ill stick with that. i think what we can learn from eastern and middle eastern culture is that marriages are something that must be built over time, and that feelings should not be the basis. feelings can and do obviously change, so feeling like you are not in love with your spouse anymore should not be looked at as a reason for divorce, but instead i feel it should be looked at as a reason to improve the relationship. 
and i also feel that people should be well informed about the affects of dopamine so that they are not caught off guard when the dopamine stops. that alone might be enough to get spouses to start working with each other instead of assuming that divorce is the best option. it also prepares them for the knowledge that they could start feeling intense feelings for someone else. i think it would be easier avoid acting on those feelings if they know that it is inherently temporary.

cuz lets face it, if the neshwa is the only reason a couple gets married to begin with, and they view that as the main basis for a successful marriage, then they will never be able to commit to one, since the neshwa will inevitably end.


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

Met my wife in july and married her in October, ups and downs but we were meant for each other I believe, its getting better everyday


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

This is an interesting thread, As'laDain. We had a very long period of dating and living together before marriage, so were well beyond the neshwa period. For us, the limerance never faded, and it is now almost 14 years later.

I think we survived the dopamine cliff because we were extremely compatible in all ways as well as in love. Love is not enough to form the basis of a lasting relationship, IMO, yet too many people fall in love and neglect to see if they are compatible for the long term.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Great research topic. As far as my personal statistics go:

Marriage No. 1: Met in March, 1983 on a Colorado ski-trip. I was skiing, she was not. I was from Texas, she from Nebraska/North Dakota. We communicated only by phone/letter after that. Travelled up to see her in December of that year. Long distance relationship ensued. Got engaged in summer of 1984. She took a job in my city in January, 1985 and we moved in together. Married in September, 1985. She filed for divorce in April, 1998.

Divorced-October, 1998. Length of Marriage 13 years, 1 month

Marriage No. 2: Met in December 2002. Got engaged in February, 2004. Married in May, 2004. Separated in May, 2011. She filed for divorce in November, 2011. 

Divorced-September, 2013. Length of Marriage: 9 Years, 5 Months

You do the math, but from my examination of the facts and from the experience of most of my married friends, I definitely think that the shorter courtships statistically seem to bode for the better!*


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In my own opinion, after a few years, respect replaces (much of) love in a viable long term relationship. Love is nice but love does not pay bills, stay up all night with a colicky infant, etc.
Mutual respect allows for a relationship of equals to take its place. 

Respect for oneself and respect for the partner is earned, and a lot easier to lose and much harder to gain than love. Love is a chemical gig, no question, instant on, while respect means you need to understand what the other person is all about and give them the respect they need if they have earned it.

Respect in this day and age does not have a physical component to it. (Ie beating someone up won't do it ) It's all mental. And loving someone doors not necessarily mean you respect them and vice versa. 

Respect should be mutual while we're at it. If one partner puts the other on a pedestal without reciprocation assuming it is earned then nothing happens...


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> ok, after doing a lot of research...


Your post is fantastic! You have articulated this very well. I have not done any formal studies but have read many, talked to many people, and observed a great deal, and I have come to the same conclusions.

There is one thing I will add, though, that I feel is missing from your post. Married but Happy hit on it: Compatibility.

In western culture, where couples often marry before that fog is gone, their ability to continue the relationship after the fog depends a great deal on compatibility. If they are highly compatible, they're likely to make the relationship work no matter when they married. 

Conversely, in eastern culture, there is an attempt to create compatibility where it may be lacking. Essentially, two people learn how to live together in harmony. However, if there is significant incompatibility they may simply remain together unhappily. (Overall, studies show a higher degree of happiness in arranged marriages than in marriages made for love, but those who are unhappy also have greater degrees of unhappiness than their western counterparts.) 

Some compatibility issues may be learned behaviors, such as how an individual handles finances, while others are character issues, such as a person's natural inclination toward being a pessimist or optimist. 

I think compatibility is the key to success in both cultures, but that there's a huge need for studying the role of compatibility in relationship success between the two cultures.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Great thread.

We used to live in India, and had the opportunity to observe many marriages. While I was, and still remain, rather uncomfortable with the idea of arranged marriage, it does have some advantages. People know what they are looking for (money), and few people have the unrealistic expectations we sometimes get in the West. 

Love does grow in a marriage, if given time, and commitment. I certainly love dh more today than 20 years ago. I also believe, to some extent, that love is a choice.

Sometimes I wish more people with kids in the West would consider the lessons of arranged marriage. All the divorce in our country cannot be good for kids.


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## yours4ever (Mar 14, 2013)

I am from the east too. Malaysia, to be exact. 

Another contributing factor to the difference in divorce rate of west and east, i would say, is the media's influence.

i watched 4 u.s.a movies in a week and ALL of them potrayed divorce and cheating in them. 

In Malaysian tv dramas, this is hardly the case.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

KathyBatesel said:


> Your post is fantastic! You have articulated this very well. I have not done any formal studies but have read many, talked to many people, and observed a great deal, and I have come to the same conclusions.
> 
> There is one thing I will add, though, that I feel is missing from your post. Married but Happy hit on it: Compatibility.
> 
> ...



i certainly agree with you that compatibility is definitely important, but i don't believe it is completely necessary to have compatibility at the beginning. 
if it were completely necessary, i would not be married today.

when my wife and i first got married, we were about as incompatible as we could possibly be.

i was in extremely good shape, she was overweight.
i had saved up plenty of money and had a steady paycheck while she was 15 grand in debt and couldn't hold down a job due to her disability.

our entertainment preferences were completely different. she liked online video games, i liked the outdoors. she liked to spend time with friends, i liked to spend time relaxing on my own.

we both went into the relationship with a lot of issues. 
my wife was controlling when we did chores, which i was very adverse to, so for a while, i refused to do them while she was there. she really wasnt putting a lot of unrealistic demands on me, she just wanted me to load the dishwasher just so, or use such and such method when i cleaned the house. when i randomly started doing chores, she would jump in and start with the "guidance" so, i eventually stopped all together.

if you think she started to build resentment towards me, your right, and i saw it at the time. its not like it wasn't for a good reason though. i gave her absolutely zero help for a while. she resented me for not helping, i resented her for making me feel the way i did when i was growing up. but, i couldnt change the way my wife did things, and she couldnt change the way i felt, so i came up with something i thought might make it easier on us, something* i* COULD do... the next time she left the house for anything, or went to bed earlier than me, i would furiously clean the house so that when she got back or woke up, it was done. 
i dont feel like im being controlled, she feels like im actually helping.

nearly every aspect of our lives were like this. she was trying the best she could, but she had a lot of her own issues that she had to deal with. most of it stemmed from her mother.

and i have to admit, i was horrible at communicating effectively back then. i would usually bottle stuff up until i ended up exploding. 
we had a LOT of arguments. things would fly around the house. 
now that i think about it, arguments or whining was probably our most common form of communication. when i noticed my wife go into "attack mode", i would clam up and wouldn't say anything. yeah, that doesn't work. i usually clammed up because i felt incredibly anxious. i didn't want to say something hurtful, but i couldn't think when i was anxious. 

i ended up reading up on why i got so anxious during arguments. 
i learned about the affects of cortisol on the part of the brain that deals with logic. thats when the light bulb went off in my head. i realized that if i can just stop the cortisol from flowing, i will be in full use of my capacities, so ill be able to actually speak effectively. in other words, ill be able to argue.

next time she got mad at me and went into attack mode, i started laughing at her. i would laugh in her face until my stomach was hurting. eventually, i stopped feeling anxious every time we argued. it didnt actually take that long. 
i didnt have to laugh at her anymore. she also got better at arguing. i mean, its not like my wife WANTED to be angry. 
but, she didn't know how to turn the anger off. laughing at her was something that i could do that helped with that. it ended up being an indicator for both of us that we WILL get to the bottom of our problem, and that made it a lot easier for us to communicate. 

we eventually got much better at communicating. that led to the change in everything else. we even started picking up each others interests. 
today, we do everything together. she is my best friend, i am hers. 

now, why did i marry my wife?
thats actually the hardest thing for me to answer. it wasnt because i loved her at the time. i mean, i CHOSE to love her, but i felt no romantic feelings. 
i guess it goes back to what i wanted from the marriage. she was willing to marry me, and she was willing to listen to me, so i figured we could make a marriage work. i felt like i was ready to get married. 

at the beginning, i had all the power in the relationship. and, like most "nice guy" relationships, my wifes many attempts to please me werent getting through. they werent making her more sexy to me. i was trying my best to make sure she felt loved, but there wasnt any romance felt on my end. so, i started encouraging her to set limits for herself, and to tell me when she didnt like something i was doing. it took a lot of patience and work to get her to feel safe enough to tell me those things. 

thats when SHE started changing for the better. she lost weight, she got better with money, she started coming out of her shell, she can argue and discuss things easily, and i cant tell you how much she turns me on. we **** like bunnies lately..

i had no idea how much my wife had been told in the past that she is not good enough. seeing the woman now, compared to the woman i married, its like two totally different people. 
i feel like i can be proud of the influence i have had on my own relationship, but i am also extremely proud of my wife...
i mean, she is AMAZING! nowadays, she is helping me with myself, in the same way. there have always been things that were hard for me to tell her, and she has been calling me on it. her reactions to me when i DO tell her something hard have made ME feel safe in telling her. 
and that has made me feel confident. which, has made me more sexy to her. 

so, yea, i really dont think there is much of anything that is needed for a relationship to work and blossom, except for one thing...

to make love a CHOICE.


and yes, Akinaura(my wife) did read this post before i posted it, what with all the negativity in the beginning...
her feelings DO matter to me.


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## uhaul4mybaggage (Jul 20, 2010)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I met my husband at church when we were 16 and 18. We dated four months before we had sex. We got engaged 2 months later...he left for boot camp and we married when he got out...which was 8 months to the day after we met. We have been married almost 42 years. We still remain in love and lust.


ah, so happy for you, and at the same time, so envious. Sprinkle some of that on me.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

As'laDain, your post is very illuminating. I LOVE the way you solved the housekeeping control issue! Pure genius.


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