# Divorce because of Overwhelmed? Need Help?



## jsniceguy (Aug 27, 2009)

OK - I will give you the short version of our story and then highlight the part that truly confuses me. My wife and i have been having some issues and about 6 months ago I was given the information that she was unhappy. I had truly never noted this before but had noticed that she became much crabbier when our third child came along (they are now 7, 5, 3). When we fight it is about little things or some lies that she has taken to telling me but nothing substantial. When confronted with the conversation about divorce last week we both cooled off and decided that we really needed to think and have a good heart to heart discussion. Well her answer to what the actual problem is "*She is not cut out for the suburban mother lifestyle and while loving our children and me very much she is very unhappy."* This is the part that truly confuses me because I knew the hectic life comes with multiple children (I am one of 6) but she being an only child can't handle the pressure and stress and hecticness. We are talking divorce because she needs some days free of "her current life" assuming that we would go with 50% placement. As someone that believes he can fix anything or has a great ability to see all sides of a situation I am dumbfounded by this one.... How can someone say they love you and the entire family but want to give it up??? What I really need is to understand from someone else that may have had similar feelings or help me to come up with ways to help her get through and past this. I lover her very much and the last thing I want is for our marriage to end - in addition I want to see my kids everyday not only 4 days a week or less....


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Perhaps she is overwhelmed. 

I assume that 1-2 are in school during the day. Can she put the other in part time pre-school or mothers day out for additional free time? 

Or...maybe return to school herself or focus on some interest?

It's VERY easy for mothers to lose themselves. I know that I did. My kids are now 15 and 21 years. I ended up attending school and getting another degree. 

Another option is to get some sort of help with the house chores-maids perhaps?

Just some ideas.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

jsniceguy said:


> Well her answer to what the actual problem is "*She is not cut out for the suburban mother lifestyle and while loving our children and me very much she is very unhappy."*


Meh. These are all just words from a woman who as I recall had another man floating around in the picture not so long ago. You're apparently just meant to be a sap and take up the reins on all the child care forever and let her "have her freedom". That would allow her to waltz off with the other guy free of responsiblities.

She either needs to stay with you and work it out, or take a hike and get divorced while you take her to court for child support et al.

I mean seriously... "not cut out for suburban mother lifestyle". What a total bull**** line is that. Maybe I'm confused but that very lifestyle appears to be the end goal of western civilization and technology. So many women are just worthless as wives these days. If they lose the phone dinner is ruined etc. OMG I'm ranting.

(For the record I watched my infant and toddler kids during the day *and* worked a full time nursing position weekend/night wrap around shift for years. I am totally allowed to say this.  )


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## jsniceguy (Aug 27, 2009)

Thanks CW - She currently works 4 days a week and cannot drop any days there which does add to her feelings I am sure. As far as the other things, I am a very hands on helper and have also suggested a maid or other things to assist as it would be far cheaper than a divorce but she refuses.

Thank you also Atholk - You are correct on the earlier stuff and at this point I am trying very hard to keep a positive attitude but do share your thoughts that this is a bullsh*t answer and something I don't think is possible. That is why I am looking for feedback from others and truly want this to work out so I will hold onto anything right now. But trust me I am grounded and have a complete understanding of myself, what I would have to if we were to end it and have mentally prepared myself for an end if that occurred.

All feedback is excellent as this thing needs to be thought through from every angle


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

If indeed the work overload is getting to her then take control.

You can hire a maid or prepared meals etc. Don't ask for her permission just surprise her. 

It great that you help out. I'm not sure what to say. 

Maybe she's looking for an excuse to get out.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Often you can tell something important about a person simply from their screen name. 

If your wife is evaluating/flirting with/having EA or possible PA with other men then the issue is NOT a suburban lifestyle. At least not exactly. 

My guess is that she cannot handle a totally civilized husband. 

If she has been giving you wild monkey sex all along including the last year - then ignore the rest of this. If however your sex life has steadily faded - maybe even died then read on... 

You need to find a way to regain or build from scratch an "edge." Because your future relationships will be much happier and more sexual if you have that. Many women simply cannot tolerate a lack of a full spectrum emotional relationship. 

My wife wants to experience a little bit of lots of love and kindness - spiced up with some level of conflict - genuine raw anger and dominant male behavior. I don't think she is that rare I simply think she is more blatant about what she wants then most women. 

I have no idea why she likes this - I simply know that playing rough makes her love me more and lust after me more. And playing sweet and gentle is great as long as that isn't the only thing I do. 

Find a guy friend who understands how this works - including the alpha bedroom behavior like spanking and dominant talking. And have him teach you the rules of the road because it is sad to lose a marriage over a lack of pop....



jsniceguy said:


> Thanks CW - She currently works 4 days a week and cannot drop any days there which does add to her feelings I am sure. As far as the other things, I am a very hands on helper and have also suggested a maid or other things to assist as it would be far cheaper than a divorce but she refuses.
> 
> Thank you also Atholk - You are correct on the earlier stuff and at this point I am trying very hard to keep a positive attitude but do share your thoughts that this is a bullsh*t answer and something I don't think is possible. That is why I am looking for feedback from others and truly want this to work out so I will hold onto anything right now. But trust me I am grounded and have a complete understanding of myself, what I would have to if we were to end it and have mentally prepared myself for an end if that occurred.
> 
> All feedback is excellent as this thing needs to be thought through from every angle


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## Commited1 (Nov 13, 2009)

MEM11363 speaks the truth here. I had/have problems very similar to yours. The key to their resolution/management was simply standing up for myself and drawing a line of how much crap I would take and not back from that line. In fact, the line has moved forward inch by inch and she is now the one giving ground. 

I am no sexist and far from a misogynist, but honestly, it seems many women want their way and also for you to be the alpha male. Ask them which they want and they will say their way. But their actions definitely tend to answer 'alpha male'. That doesn't mean to be a total jerk. But when the alpha male part is lacking, women (in my experience) tend to lose a feeling of security they depend on you for and so start fantasizing about independence sometimes to the point where they think they can take the male role on themselves and ditch you altogether. 

But it doesn't work like that. Separate as a couple and soon enough she will be seeking the same things from another male. Better to just man up and define some very clear boundaries.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Clarification: I love my wife. I do not enjoy the full spectrum emotional relationship the same way she does. I would prefer full time love/kindness. I have simply learned that she is not nearly as happy when there is no edge.

And this is not about being a jerk. Jerks initiate hostilities or conflict. My wife does NOT - LOL - like that. She simply likes it when I show a certain amount of "we are doing this my way - because it will be fun" leadership and that I am aggressive when she or the kids or third parties behave inappropriately. 

I believe this is hard wired behavior. She is overall delightful and fun and smart and mostly very rational I would simply describe her as a handful.   



Commited1 said:


> MEM11363 speaks the truth here. I had/have problems very similar to yours. The key to their resolution/management was simply standing up for myself and drawing a line of how much crap I would take and not back from that line. In fact, the line has moved forward inch by inch and she is now the one giving ground.
> 
> I am no sexist and far from a misogynist, but honestly, it seems many women want their way and also for you to be the alpha male. Ask them which they want and they will say their way. But their actions definitely tend to answer 'alpha male'. That doesn't mean to be a total jerk. But when the alpha male part is lacking, women (in my experience) tend to lose a feeling of security they depend on you for and so start fantasizing about independence sometimes to the point where they think they can take the male role on themselves and ditch you altogether.
> 
> But it doesn't work like that. Separate as a couple and soon enough she will be seeking the same things from another male. Better to just man up and define some very clear boundaries.


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## jsniceguy (Aug 27, 2009)

Thanks for all of the advice - In the past couple of months I have done a lot of thinking about who I am and what I want to be. In the past in order to keep family peace I have taken what I thought to be the smarter route but faced with that life possibly ending I have realized that standing my ground some more may have been the better thing. Either way at this point I have taken myself into respect and gone back to doing a lot of the things I enjoy. Being assertive in my work environment has gotten me into management so I assume some of those same techniques should be utilized at home.

Any advice on prepping the scenario to get more than 50% placement of children? If indeed she is soooo overwhelmed by our life and kids why would she deserve them 50% of the time? 

thanks


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

jsniceguy said:


> Any advice on prepping the scenario to get more than 50% placement of children? If indeed she is soooo overwhelmed by our life and kids why would she deserve them 50% of the time?


The children are all a red herring. She's not actually overwhelmed with everything. It's all a BS line. The more you try and gain traction on the children's custody, the more you are playing into the concept that she is overwhelmed by everything. Like I said earlier, the line is designed to end up with you being a full time solo parent, while she gets to leave everything in your hands and free to go have sex with another man. 

You need to completely reframe the conversation. "If you think life is hard now, just wait until the divorce, because frankly your responisblities to the children will NOT change, the only thing that changes will be everything splitting up and becoming more complicated to manage and handle. It's 50/50 NOW. After the divorce it's going to be 50/50 of something much harder to manage. Plus if we divorce I will NOT be friendly to you, it will be over between us, meaning I will NOT be doing anything extra for you, what I'll be doing for the "family" will be for the children and not a damn thing for you. You will be on your own, life will be harder for you, and I will no longer care."

The real issue is she's probably a bit bored, most likely by you. Hence the advice by others about adding some alpha male goodness to the mix. It sounds like you're doing a little too much on the beta front ("How do I get more of the kids?") The problem of you being too beta isn't going to be solved with _cranking up the beta_.

You have to balance both alpha and beta traits in a long term marriage. Too alpha and you're a bad provider, unhelpful, self-involved prick. Too beta and you're unexciting, sexless, safe and boring. Got to mix it up on them and keep them on their toes a little bit.

If you're not in good physical shape, work on improving that asap. It's always a good thing to be in shape, but in terms of it's timing around a potential break up, it's a fairly strong signal that you are prepping yourself to attract a new mate if you need to. It's a very strong empowering move to make. You don't have to date other women/cheat on her, it's just an implication that if pushed in that direction, you could more easily replace her than perhaps she could replace you. The ability to attract women in general is an alpha male trait anyway. Advantage you.


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## Commited1 (Nov 13, 2009)

jsniceguy- 

I don't know all sides of the story, but don't give up on this. It is easier and takes less courage to slink away and be accommodating. She wants out, to bad. She made a commitment to you and you to her. 

I want to post the following video because it is an excellent representation of a dialog between the alpha and beta aspects of the same male personality. There is swearing in it, so if you are offended please don't watch. But the lesson is hard medicine and part of that is dealing with 'offenses'. I read the forum guidelines and didn't see anything against posting this sort of thing. 

Again, a brief conversation between alpha and beta. I actually find it to be quite inspiring and its the kind of conversation you need to have within yourself:

YouTube - Deadwood: Al's Take On Misfortune


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JS-NG,
In all my bboard wanderings I have found Atholk to have the greatest understanding of women - and what makes them happy/unhappy. So if you get confused by the wide range of suggestions you get, and you need to simplify - READ HIS POSTS AND EXECUTE. This will give you the best possible outcome in your situation. And if you stay the course on his advice - it will ensure that your next long term relationship/marriage doesn't end the way this one may. 




Atholk said:


> The children are all a red herring. She's not actually overwhelmed with everything. It's all a BS line. The more you try and gain traction on the children's custody, the more you are playing into the concept that she is overwhelmed by everything. Like I said earlier, the line is designed to end up with you being a full time solo parent, while she gets to leave everything in your hands and free to go have sex with another man.
> 
> You need to completely reframe the conversation. "If you think life is hard now, just wait until the divorce, because frankly your responisblities to the children will NOT change, the only thing that changes will be everything splitting up and becoming more complicated to manage and handle. It's 50/50 NOW. After the divorce it's going to be 50/50 of something much harder to manage. Plus if we divorce I will NOT be friendly to you, it will be over between us, meaning I will NOT be doing anything extra for you, what I'll be doing for the "family" will be for the children and not a damn thing for you. You will be on your own, life will be harder for you, and I will no longer care."
> 
> ...


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Atholk and MEM - You guys both have consistent advice and I think it's sound for a guy not to be too invested in his woman. It's good advice to keep a healthy marriage going. And MEM I'm jealous of the relationship you have, from what I've read you've got it figured out. 

But I'm not convinced that by the time a man's wife has checked out of the relationship, that going Alpha is going to somehow create attraction. It's good for the guy to put his needs first, because it saves a bunch humiliating, p*ssy behavior and he leaves the relationship with a measure of dignity, but honestly in 2+ year of reading boards like this, and dealing with my own cheating ex, failed reconciliation, etc, I've rarely seen a woman come back to a relationship. Sure, some come back in body, but they usually still act terrible, and the guy suffers. By the time a woman checks out, it's usually too late. And you're f*cked.

I did some counseling with the author of No More Mr. Nice Guy - a great book on this subject - and he had a real piece of wisdom: Hope keeps all suffering in place, meaning deal in reality and not fantasy.

jsniceguy - women check out for lots of reasons, if she was sexually abused as a kid/young woman, it tends to emerge in their late 30's/early 40's. Some women are so driven to marriage and kids, and then when they get them, they have no more goals, and go through a "now what" phase, it's as if their life goals were completed, and they can't reconcile that marriage/kids are a PROCESS, not a destination. Woman are conditioned not to acknowledge their sexual desires, and that repression comes out in full force during an affair (the OM gets the hot sex, you get the mommy). If she's emotionally immature, or unable/unwilling to communicate her real feelings, or she's wired to be a liar, or passive agressive, then what ever sh*t she is pulling on you has more to do with her own head, then you.

I don't want you to get your hopes up that going alpha is somehow going to fix this. It probably won't. Sorry to be a bummer.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SS,
I was very very lucky to meet my wife. I really mean that about the luck part. Over the years she has kindly taught me a lot of the stuff that Atholk talks about. 

I certainly don't mean to imply that being assertive/dominant and confident will bring back a wayward spouse. I absolutely believe that with certainty it will:
- Improve their ongoing treatment of you if you have to interact post divorce (which everyone who has kids does)
- Reduce the amount of emotional harm they do to you even if they do continue to misbehave AND
- Help you to initiate and sustain a new relationship in a more healthy way 





seeking sanity said:


> Atholk and MEM - You guys both have consistent advice and I think it's sound for a guy not to be too invested in his woman. It's good advice to keep a healthy marriage going. And MEM I'm jealous of the relationship you have, from what I've read you've got it figured out.
> 
> But I'm not convinced that by the time a man's wife has checked out of the relationship, that going Alpha is going to somehow create attraction. It's good for the guy to put his needs first, because it saves a bunch humiliating, p*ssy behavior and he leaves the relationship with a measure of dignity, but honestly in 2+ year of reading boards like this, and dealing with my own cheating ex, failed reconciliation, etc, I've rarely seen a woman come back to a relationship. Sure, some come back in body, but they usually still act terrible, and the guy suffers. By the time a woman checks out, it's usually too late. And you're f*cked.
> 
> ...


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## DeniseK (Jun 25, 2009)

Maybe some people are just mean and selfish. Why do we want to be with someone like that? I have had to ask myself this question over and over again.

I"m sorry for what you are going through. But sometimes one person decides that they just don't want it anymore.....I know from experience that nothing you can do will fix that person. Let em go. Get as much time with your kids as you can, because if she doesn't want them, they are better off with you.

I have 3 boys. 6, 8 and 15. I am a single mother now, thanks to my stupid ex who remarried before the ink was dry on our divorce papers. He didnt' want to be a daddy or husband .....I did it all. Housework, yard work, kids ...kids school and extra curricular activities...worked, cooked, anything he needed too. And I took care of all the bills while he played playstation and complained of being tired.

My point is.....he just checked out of reality. Life is hectic. Being a parent is a thankless job that has few rewards and a lot of heartache. "I love you mommy" Are the greatest words I ever heard and that makes it beyond worth the stress and fatigue and heartache. IF your wife has checked out.....let her go. It's not easy....it hurts......I feel dead inside 90% of the time. I question what more I could have done. 

There are good men and women out there. Just ask yourself....."Why do I love someone who can say they just want to walk away from it all? " 

NO one loves their spouse 24\7 forever. Eventually it takes work and sacrifice to make a marriage work....it takes a desire to do so. You have that.....but it sounds like she doesn't.

I am so sorry for your suffering. I hate for anyone to go through this....and in the end, after all the advice....it's your choice. Do whatever you can stand to do. iF that is hang in there, then do it. If it is walk away and slam it to her....then do that.

Good luck.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Seeking Sanity, you are right about the Alpha thing not being the answer. I watched the link on U-tube, and it was like I was listening to myself when he talked about "pain, beatings, and damage not killing you", and "giving some back to the world". 

Human beings are far too complicated to have a simple dichotomy like alpha or beta describe us. Obviously, if you are going to take a spectrum approach, being an outlier is going to be problematic for your spouse. The trick, like with just about everything else in life is to strike a balance. The problem with being too alpha in my opinion is that you come off as "cold" to women. That may not mean that they won't want to take their panties off for you, but over time they will want a deep emotional connection that you won't be able to provide.

I can see the switch turn off in my wife's mind every time I give her a "Patonesque" speech. These "speeches" work great for my kids, my employees, and I will give a particularly stirring one tonight at our Christmas party, but try the "Dead Oak" thing with your wife Atholk and get back to me on it. I will await your PM with eager anticipation.

Yes, she likes decisiveness. Yes, she likes strength. Yes, she likes to be "taken", but she also wants vulnerability, sympathy, and compassion. I don't show that. It's balance people. It's always has, and always will be. LIL


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Um the focus of the thread is pointing at me a little I think, so a few comments.

It's very hard to get my entire approach to marriage in this format down, and to be honest it's mostly working best in making average/good relationships better, rather than salvaging bad ones. Once people have cheated or otherwise checked out of reality it's really hard to bring that back to what it was.

Loosely summarized - women respond to men exhibiting positive versions of two primary male traits called Alpha Male and Beta Male.

*Alpha Male *is devoted to physicality, assertiveness, leadership, social dominance, healthy genes, raw sexual energy, power and at times even violence. The positive version is thats of an inspiring protector and the not so positive is simply a thug. This is the male aspect that just gets panties wet and *triggers attraction*. Thugs still get panties wet, they are just scary to be a relationship with.

The *Beta Male* is devoted to personality traits that ultimately are good for rasing children. Work ethic, building the nest, kindess, parenting skills, listening, holding a job, controlling anger and sexual energy, art, language and creativity. The positive version is the family man that provides and supports, the negative version is the mangina that gives away all relationship power to the woman. Good Betas build *relationship comfort*. When the woman is given too much comfort and not enough attraction, she becomes bored with her partner. Often the begining of the end. (Queue up the "I love you, but I'm not in love with you" speech.)

The man needs to develop and show both Alpha and Beta traits over a long term relationship and show them appropriately. Most men typically do better with one or the other of these traits, and in times of pressure (like a break up) just act more and more from their position of natural strength. Natural Alpha's get bigger and louder and become scarier and even less reliable. Natural Beta's do more stuff for the woman and bore her to death with their neediness even faster. So more often than not, their natural reaction to relationship stress just intensifies the relationship problem.

So if you're too Beta the solution is to add Alpha. If you're too Alpha, the solution is to add Beta. 

It is exceptionally important to balance both positive traits in a long term relationship. Women have a monthly sexual cycle with changing hormones that affects what they are more attracted to throughout the month. For about three weeks of the month women respond more positively to Beta Male behavior. But when she is ovulating Alpha Male behavior is highly attractive. Importantly - while ovulation is only a small part of the month, this is when she will make her most critical sexual decisions and is at her horniest. Husbands that fail to display Alpha traits specially during ovulation run a higher risk for being either abandoned, cheated on, or rasing children they think are theirs but aren't.

In terms of myself, I more naturally fall along lines of Beta behavior. My marriage has always been decent, but I've seen many improvements by learning to up the Alpha stuff.

Also a common misconception is that Alpha behavior involves some sort of aggression towards the wife (yelling, hitting, property destruction, issuing demands, bossing her about etc) These things do work to change her behavior, but only in the very short term as they undercut the positive Beta traits and ultimately destory the relationship. Ultimately the best *Alpha *display is that you're just going to make your way into the world with *confidence* and just succed at whatever it is that you're going to do. Opinions of the rest of the world be damned, you're your own man. And like a huge truck on the interstate, you just create a huge hole in the air that makes following you easy.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

seeking sanity said:


> But I'm not convinced that by the time a man's wife has checked out of the relationship, that going Alpha is going to somehow create attraction. It's good for the guy to put his needs first, because it saves a bunch humiliating, p*ssy behavior and he leaves the relationship with a measure of dignity, but honestly in 2+ year of reading boards like this, and dealing with my own cheating ex, failed reconciliation, etc, I've rarely seen a woman come back to a relationship. Sure, some come back in body, but they usually still act terrible, and the guy suffers. By the time a woman checks out, it's usually too late. And you're f*cked.


It does take some time to learn good Alpha behavior and confidence if you're a strong Beta by natural inclination. It can take _many years_ to change yourself, and frankly you're dealing with a woman that is used to just rolling over the top of you. Plus half of being Alpha is just plain old confidence, and having the love of your life leave/cheat etc is hardly a confidence booster.

Still, I'm the type of guy that yells "man overboard" and tosses a floation device in the water. Gotta at least try something right? You never know, he might pull it off. Or at least get a better perspective and do vastly better in the next relationship. Or not just automatically turn belly up for a divorce settlement in her favor.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Atholk - For the record, I AGREE with you and I think you're approach is bang on. It's along the lines of what I see as a new men's movement - trying to find balance after the fall out of feminism, political correctness, and bloody confusing nature of being a man these days. Tough, but not too tough. Sensitive but not too sensitive.

My point was that, on this thread and many others, the marriage is already at crisis point and the woman has checked out. At that point, going alpha, or doing a 180, or whatever "technique" to back off and find yourself is more about self-preservation than winning her back. I've come to believe that when women check out 9 times of 10 the relationship is done and NOTHING you do will save it.

I'm wired to be Beta, except I have an extremely strong need for independence in work and thought. Certainly in my marriage I became weak, placating and didn't take control. That happened after years of being rejected and having the kids come first. (Four kids over 8 years). So, I got to the point that my assertiveness would be met with sexual resistance, and it kind of beat me down.

For any guys interested: "No more mr nice guy" is a great book on this; the david deida stuff is interesting, and I like the perspective of Dr. Love (you can find him on askmen.com)

SS


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## jsniceguy (Aug 27, 2009)

Thanks for all the advice - I'm not sure if she's just totally checked out of the relationship at this point or not as you guys have said much of that has to be figured out in her mind. My worry is continuing to keep myself in good mental health and start to show more of an alpha behavior at home (once again I do it at work within my management style all of the time). Much of my time and thinking is done during my marathon and triathlon training which I have been doing for several years (answers that in shape question there). I don't know or even believe that more of that behavior at home will bring her back but once again make sure that I am right going on in the future. 

As far as the kids and working to get more time with them if this is over - I don't see that as beta behavior but more alpha. If indeed this is over spending time with my kids is one of my favorite and rewarding things and if she doesn't want the "hectic" lifestyle she doesn't deserve that time or the ability to take it away from me. You may disagree with that stance but it is one I truly believe in. Also in my stating that to her she knows I am serious and if she is ready to leave so be it but it is without all of the things that she knows today.

Thanks again for all the advice and the more the merrier because learning comes from all angles. Oh by the way as an update on how we are doing - she is here and "trying" but still vacant. The kids truly make that "final" decision a tough one but without feeling it gets easier.


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## jsniceguy (Aug 27, 2009)

Finally got my wife to go to therapy - I know that it should be a good thing but in 1 session she came home stating that the therapist is already recommending a 3 month separation with 1 together family night, 1 date night and the rest split time with our children. Maybe I'm off base but how does a therapist make that determination in 1 session with 1 partner in a marriage? Really have a tough time even thinking about it - not so much for me or my wife but the devastation to my children Tough thoughts thanks for reading.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

JSNG.. I can tell you from personal experience I understand what you are going through. My wife has told me the same thing. She told me she is so stressed from everything that she feels like walking away from everything. She loves her kids. She has told me not to leave her that she needs me. It has NOTHING to do with another man and sex. It's the farthest thing from their minds. It's about them being able to handle it. This is the best time of year and she told me tonight she doesn't care.. That if I want Christmas then I have to do it. 


There is a real problem and she probably needs meds. My wife admitted to needing them. It's something in their head that they can't handle too much stress.. It is being overwhelmed. My wife is the baby of 4. Everybody took care of her when she was younger and Married I took care of her. Now as an adult with 2 kids she probably never learned to handle all the pressures and stress with life. It has to feel horrible not knowing what to do.. I hope she gets help.. She needs it..


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

> Much of my time and thinking is done during my marathon and triathlon training which I have been doing for several years (answers that in shape question there


If this is true, and she has 3 young kids close in age--then 50/50 WILL be a reduction in her load. OM or no OM, she will feel sad to be without her kids half the time, but she will get something of herself back. My guess is that you, OP, have not done anywhere near 50% of the child care/house work/family related planning/execution of tasks. I know there are exceptions, but even when men are "helping," 90% of the planning, thinking, preparing ahead of time, etc., etc., etc., is done by the wife. Most men won't know much about their kids clothing sizes or vaccination records or dental experiences, whereas a mom (including those who work full-time outside the home) will always know this stuff and soooooooo much more. If I'm wrong, tell me. But I've never met a man who knew 1/2 as much as his wife about family-related realities/needs/wants. 

It is so easy to dismiss a woman if you have never lived in her shoes. You cannot--society does not place a demand on you to be everything to everyone, especially your kids. Mom is usually on call almost 24/7, while dad is on call only if mom isn't physically in the home. How many of you have kids that will--and always have--called for you and you alone when they need something? Or is it, "mom, mom, mom. . ." 

One of you wrote that the suburban mom's lifestyle is the goal of the modern world (something like that) Are you crazy? Do you have any real idea how draining and BORING it can be? And yet there is all this love for our kids, which means we just can't say no to them. Yet we want to have our own lives and identities too. Many of us love working, love our jobs. IF when we got home (or when dad got home, if mom is a stay-at-home-mom), the family routine was truly 50/50--we could take baths without 6 interruptions, or read for an hour without being asked a question by a child or a spouse; if we could feel free from responsibility fully half the time two adults are in the home--maybe then, it would feel differently. Maybe then we would see our spouse as a true partner, not an additional person we are expected to take care of ('cause that's often how a husband acts, frankly). 

I will be the first to admit that there are obviously going to be exceptions to what I describe, even though I don't personally know any. Play a party game next time you go out: ask couples about their kids' shoe sizes and most recent checkup or vaccination. See who answers. Ask "so who do your kids call for if they need something in the evening?" "Who do they want if they are sick?" "Who gets followed into the bathroom by the younger kids?" 

Now imagine you are the person who does/is all these things. Imagine you are always on call; you are doing laundry and reading stories and picking up toys and . . . while your partner is watching tv, or reading something, or playing on the computer. Your partner does bath and/or bedtime--you get to sit for an hour or so, except there are other things that need tending, phone calls that need to be made so that Jr. gets to soccer while you take Sissy to Brownies tomorrow. Your hour slips by. . . one of the kids needs water, or needs to use the toilet. Your partner is back to her computer game. . . so you do it. In the waning evening hour, you fold and put away some laundry, pick up the clothes left lying on the bathroom floor, drink some tea and flip through a magazine. Then it's bedtime. Your partner wants sex; you like sex. So another 1/2 hour to an hour passes before you go to sleep. Then you are awakened by a little voice; your partner is out cold. So you get up . . . Repeat this over and over and over again, adding some nights with more than one disruption to sleep. Repeat daily and nightly for 7 years and 3 infants. Add a partner who does a lot less--and even adds to your workload by leaving clothes around, or leaving chores she's agreed to do, undone. . . 

Now ask yourself, do you--and have you always--really shared 50% of the family load in the post-work hours--meaning, from the time your job ends (not from the time you get home from your workout after work)? You might work a 10 hour day--so does she, either at home or her own job. Then you come home to relax and unwind. Does she?


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## jsniceguy (Aug 27, 2009)

Thanks for the words LH - I have been told that this is not a rare phenomonon but very difficult to handle. Hoping to encourage more therapy for her in the hopes that she'll figure out what is going on in her head. 

Sis - I will agree with some portions of your writing - I cannot recite vaccinations or last checkups but with my wife working 3 days a week it works out to have her handle that on the non working days. Also with her working 3 days I cannot say that I handle 50% of the housework, but when I do get home I am on the "home" clock until well after the kids go to bed - we both are busy that long and try hard to share the load. Just as I cannot tell you about vaccinations - my wife could not tell you how to run the lawnmower or snowblower or where exactly all of the outside toys get stored during the summer. As far as my workouts - most are done early in the morning before anyone is up and some extras during my lunch break at work - I try to not disturb my homelife with those workouts, in addition my wife works out 5 -6 days a week for triathlons and we try to help each other get the time needed to continue that.

I understand that a wife is very busy especially with 3 small children at home - my problem is why not learn to cope with it by doing therapy or asking for more or different assistance?


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## Commited1 (Nov 13, 2009)

lastinline said:


> Seeking Sanity, you are right about the Alpha thing not being the answer. I watched the link on U-tube, and it was like I was listening to myself when he talked about "pain, beatings, and damage not killing you", and "giving some back to the world".
> 
> Human beings are far too complicated to have a simple dichotomy like alpha or beta describe us. Obviously, if you are going to take a spectrum approach, being an outlier is going to be problematic for your spouse. The trick, like with just about everything else in life is to strike a balance. The problem with being too alpha in my opinion is that you come off as "cold" to women. That may not mean that they won't want to take their panties off for you, but over time they will want a deep emotional connection that you won't be able to provide.
> 
> ...


The point of dichotomy is balance, it really is simple when you get down to it. I think people make things far too complicated and it hurts us all.


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## Commited1 (Nov 13, 2009)

Atholk said:


> Um the focus of the thread is pointing at me a little I think, so a few comments.
> 
> It's very hard to get my entire approach to marriage in this format down, and to be honest it's mostly working best in making average/good relationships better, rather than salvaging bad ones. Once people have cheated or otherwise checked out of reality it's really hard to bring that back to what it was.
> 
> ...


This is a fantastic post that really belongs somewhere a little more high-profile than an internet message board. Thank you for sharing this wisdom. 

I want to interject that the OP seems entrenched in a beta mindset or mechanism at a time when it seems to me, the alpha side really needs to come roaring in. My thoughts on what you said are that there is a critical point in a relationship where things are 'bad' and the whole thing is ready to fail. THAT is where the alpha male needs to come into play. 

I would warn any male of allowing a relationship to fail while in a beta phase of mind. That has happened to me and I can say there is almost nothing more emasculating or harmful to future relationships than this. 

Leaving a relationship while in an alpha phase is entirely different. IT IS DIFFERENT BECAUSE ENDING THE RELATIONSHIP WAS YOUR CHOICE, not something forced on you. It was your will and your will was done. This has also happened to me and I can say that it really empowered me to not only survive the 'getting over it' healing process, but to flourish. Where I was not thinking, "omg, I have to get through another day, I can't take it..." instead I was thinking, "Each day is new day full of opportunity to FIGHT for what I want out of life, thank god I am alive and strong and never gave in, never gave up...." It is a feeling of empowerment and liberation rather than one of coercion and emasculation.


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