# Soul crushing



## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

Been awhile since I've updated my situation. 

My mom passed away earlier this year. She got sick and ultimately they found she had a very rare form of cancer. From the time they discovered this she passed away three weeks later. My dad passed away four yrs ago but this has rocked me to my core because I was way closer to my mom.

I have told my wife for the past 8-10 yrs that our marriage is on rocky grounds and from my perspective we're not going to make it. There's NO intimacy or passion in our relationship and I can't continue doing this.

My wife does NOT want to kiss me. In or out of the bedroom. Comes up with excuse after excuse.

We have sex two times a week and it's duty sex.

She lays there like a dead fish.
Get it over as fast as possible. 
No kissing (as mentioned).
No talking.
No going down on her.
No kissing her breasts. 
No interest. 
Not engaged.
No affection. 
Missionary or her on top.

I told her three months ago (for the umpteenth time) I can't do this anymore. That I'm going to go to a therapist to help with my grieving and our relationship and that hopefully she sees how serious this is and will come with me to work on this. She said she would.

I found a therapist and have been about five times. I feel comfortable with her. My wife said she would call her a few times to set up an appointment and just comes up with excuse after excuse. Almost three months have gone by and I told her (after being up all night with chest pains the other night) that this no longer works for me.

She FINALLY called the therapist that day.
She text me to say (after seeing her) that she liked her and was trying to set up another appointment with her (by herself which is fine as I want this therapist to spend some time with her before meeting with both of us. 

I have been with this woman for over 20 yrs. We have two children. When my mom passed away I was with her at the end. It was HORRIBLE!!!!

It has made me look at my life and try to put things into perspective and what's really important. I'm close to 60 yrs in age and feel like I am at a crossroad. Everywhere I turn I see death. My mom, my business of over 25 yrs is dead because of covid, and most importantly my marriage. 

I'm all for trying to make this work with my wife but we both have to be on board. I know any relationship takes effort but this is CRUSHING my soul. I feel (and know) I deserve better. 

Let me also say I want to make this work. 
I love this woman.
She's the mother of my kids.
Somewhere along the way something died.
She was extremely passionate, there was intimacy, and our sex life was great. She was up for anything. 

Let me also say, that this makes me feel like a freaking wimp. Like a beta which I have NEVER been. I'm SO torn...do I walk away or try to make this work? If I do walk away this will devastate my kids.

Hopefully this therapist can help us.
The stress of all of this is wearing on me. 
Seeing death sure opens your eyes and makes you evaluate your life. 

Where I'm at is I don't want to waste anymore time. I am willing to work on this if she's truly willing to do as well (which will be pretty evident over the coming weeks/months). I think in therapy I'll be able to see where she's at, what her agenda is, and ultimately if our relationship can get back on the right track. 

To really see if this is important to her and if she's willing to put in the work. That maybe she'll see that I'm serious about this and if it can't be fixed and to get pointed in the right direction that I am going to walk away.

My wife is extremely beautiful. 
I have done some due diligence and from what I can see I don't think she's cheating on me. 

She's mid 50's and based upon what I'm seeing in the beginning stages of menopause. 

I desperately want more from this and I want to see ACTION.....words do NOT mean ****.

Would love to hear any wisdom you would be willing to share.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

I have no words of wisdom, but I can feel the love and the pain and the devastation in your words and I wish it wasn’t like this for you. 

It’s not easy when you’re crying out and the one you love just isn’t listening. Rejection is heartbreaking, I’m so sorry she doesn’t want to kiss you.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

You must have done something to put her off... there you go... I said it...


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Many have this problem of incompatibility.
Don't live on hopium expecting it to change.

Read books, buy flowers, do the housework, etc. You‘ll get nothing in return.

2 choices:
Live with it.
Get out.

Some come here having lived on hopium for years and no matter what they’ve tried all they did was waste time and life they‘ll never get back. You can’t fix this.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Marc878 said:


> Some come here having lived on hopium for years and no matter what they’ve tried all they did was waste time and life they‘ll never get back.


I'm the living proof...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

At least give her willingness to go to this counsellor time. And not a few weeks, but say 6 months to see what happens. These things dont change in a few weeks.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

The chances of getting a decent counselor is less than 50%. They aren’t gods.

Its your life to waste but I sure wouldn’t.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Marc878 said:


> The chances of getting a decent counselor is less than 50%. They aren’t gods.
> 
> Its your life to waste but I sure wouldn’t.


He has already said that he feels comfortable with the counsellor.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

Give the therapist a real shot (3 to 6 months) and see if it makes any difference. I feel your pain. When you love somebody and have experienced their love, it hurts like hell when it suddenly goes away. I'm sure you've been told this before, but when you have lost a loved one recently (your mom) it can prompt you to make hasty, drastic life decisions. Try and ride it out for a few months while you're grieving because you can make a lot of choices after you lose someone as important as your mom that you may regret later. If down the line, 6 months from now, things don't change, you have your answer.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

sideways said:


> Let me also say, that this makes me feel like a freaking wimp. Like a beta which I have NEVER been. I'm SO torn...do I walk away or try to make this work?


Reading your post I have to say you’re not a wimp. I could have written exactly what you wrote here in August last year. I felt like a loser but like you I knew I wasn’t. I think this is a natural result of repeated rejection.

Once you realized what you want and what needs to happen you started on the path. The ball is in your wife’s court now. Work on yourself during this time so that no matter how it goes you will be a better you and you’ll be in a better position to get the woman(women) you want if you ultimately separate.

Your wife is already responding to what you have asked. At this point she needs to accelerate her efforts if she wants to be with you.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> He has already said that he feels comfortable with the counsellor.


So. These scenarios come up all the time. Never seen one get resolved.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Is the married neighbor still avoiding you? Didn't he start avoiding you right around the time your wife stopped wanting to kiss you?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Counselors:

While some may actually get a decent one. For the most part the biggest accomplishment I’ve seen is putting their kids through college on your money. 😂


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Did your wife suddenly change? Have you asked your wife why she no longer wants to be intimate with you? Have you asked her if she is attracted to you? I guess my overall point is have you sat her down and had a blunt discussion about this?


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Dear sideways:

Sounds a lot like my life at a certain stage of marriage. Been there done that.

What I found out was that I needed to change myself and stop being so clingy and needy for sex. The book the Sex Starved Marriage by M.W. Davis, and the book No More Mr. Nice Guy, by Dr. Glover really helped me understand that I needed to change, before my wife could change herself. I couldn't change her, only she could change herself.

You might want to read those books, while giving counseling a chance. My marriage was ultimately saved by a lot of hard work on my part, my wife's part and the help from a sex therapist.

I'll bet my wife's soul crushing that I felt bordered on emotional abuse could match or top your wife's. 

Good luck, In the mean time, work on improving yourself. That way if you end up divorcing her, you will be less likely to make the same mistakes. Oh, and from experience, I was part of the problem in my marriage, even though my wife refused to have sex with me and I felt like the victim. After you read the two books, do some introspection and follow their advice, things may improve a lot.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> Dear sideways:
> 
> Sounds a lot like my life at a certain stage of marriage. Been there done that.
> 
> ...


What did you change about yourself when it came to being needy for sex?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BIL310 said:


> What did you change about yourself when it came to being needy for sex?


His trousers, probably, because of the staining.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> His trousers, probably, because of the staining.


Comedy gold!


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## Thisnotthat (Oct 28, 2020)

Dude, I don't want to minimize the pain your going through, but as far as your wife goes, take a chill pill. 

You sound like a guy who's based quite a bit of his self worth on the adoration of women. You lost your mom and you've also lost (and are loosing) the respect of your wife. You had no choice in the loss of your mom but I bet if you back off a little bit you might re-gain some of the respect and adoration of your wife. 

Major life changes for you. No more business, and your at an age where its harder to re-invent yourself. And I'm sorry if this is breaking news, but your also at an age frankly where your sexual appeal is diminishing. You sound like a big pulsing ball of emotional neediness right now, but its not your wife's job to fix all of that for you. If you keep pestering her about counseling appointments and how she's supposed to kiss you and all the way's she doesn't even **** right, all your going to do is drive her farther away. Like most women/wives/moms she has all sorts of people that need things from her, yet it sounds like you've climbed to the top of that heap of neediness and are bellowing with the loudest voice!

Climb down from the heap, man. Stop worrying about how often your getting laid and in what position. Welcome to middle age, friend. You have grieving to do, a past to let go of, and a future to plan for. Go get to work on that and give your wife some space.


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## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

Thanks for all the suggestions. 

We did talk yesterday and after reluctantly seeing this counselor she does like her thus far and has set up another appointment this Friday. As mentioned I like her as well (therapist) so hopefully she'll be able to help us.

I certainly understand not making big life decisions while grieving. Going to give this six months (seeing therapist together) and will evaluate where things are at that time. 

We moved about three months ago and thus the past neighbor isn't around anymore. 

I listened to a sermon yesterday by Tony Evans entitled "Loving your woman". It certainly opened my eyes to a few things and thus I will work on myself moving forward. 

I guess time will tell if our relationship can change. I think the biggest thing this therapist can help us with is learning to communicate better. 

All I can do is work on myself and make the changes I need to make. I'm in great shape and think the attraction is still there, but hopefully the issues will come out in therapy and we can address them.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

BIL310 said:


> What did you change about yourself when it came to being needy for sex?


I studied Glovers Book NMMNG and MW Davis Book, the Sex Starved Marriage. Then I started my Get a Life program. I concluded that while I wanted to save my marriage, it was not something I had complete control over. What I could control was myself. I promised myself that I wanted to be in a loving sexual relationship with a woman by a certain major life milestone birthday that was almost two years in the future. By then, I wanted to improve myself to the point that if I divorced my wife, I would no longer be emotionally broken, I would attract the kind of women who would give me the love and sex I needed. I kept that goal firmly in my mind.

I gave a partial, but more elaborate answer to that question in another thread.
To read the thread, click here

Good luck.


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## karla.vee (Jan 22, 2021)

sideways said:


> Been awhile since I've updated my situation.
> 
> My mom passed away earlier this year. She got sick and ultimately they found she had a very rare form of cancer. From the time they discovered this she passed away three weeks later. My dad passed away four yrs ago but this has rocked me to my core because I was way closer to my mom.
> 
> ...





sideways said:


> Been awhile since I've updated my situation.
> 
> My mom passed away earlier this year. She got sick and ultimately they found she had a very rare form of cancer. From the time they discovered this she passed away three weeks later. My dad passed away four yrs ago but this has rocked me to my core because I was way closer to my mom.
> 
> ...


This type of rejection is the most painful of all. I am much younger than you but trust me I’ve been there. My ex boyfriend rejected me 9/10 times, there was no interest on his part. He never talked dirty, he never slapped my ass or made any sexual advances, he shamed me for wanting to have sex, because that wasn’t “ladylike”. We only had sex when he wanted, and never cared if I enjoyed it, he wouldn’t even kiss me because he said he hated saliva. It completely destroyed my self esteem and distorted my reality. The more he rejected me, the more I loved him. There are so many other details, I could spend and entire night writing about them. Bottom line is either you accept it and ask nothing else of her, or you leave and you move on with your life. There is no in between. People don’t change unless they want to change. I promise you won’t be able to make her change if she doesn’t want to. You deserve to feel loved and wanted.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

karla.vee said:


> This type of rejection is the most painful of all. I am much younger than you but trust me I’ve been there. My ex boyfriend rejected me 9/10 times, there was no interest on his part. He never talked dirty, he never slapped my ass or made any sexual advances, he shamed me for wanting to have sex, because that wasn’t “ladylike”. We only had sex when he wanted, and never cared if I enjoyed it, he wouldn’t even kiss me because he said he hated saliva. It completely destroyed my self esteem and distorted my reality. The more he rejected me, the more I loved him. There are so many other details, I could spend and entire night writing about them. Bottom line is *either you accept it and ask nothing else of her, or you leave and you move on with your life. There is no in between*. People don’t change unless they want to change. I promise you won’t be able to make her change if she doesn’t want to. *You deserve to feel loved and wanted.*


I am sorry for your pain. Your wisdom and advice are both from your heart and your experience. 

I wish you the best of everything. Good luck.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@sideways, you asked in another thread about the thermostat, which I referenced. I am typing this in your thread because the OP of the above referenced thread did not acknowledge whether he is willing to actually do something about it. This may sound condescending, but I won't waste my time until he shows he actually has some skin in the game...so to speak.

So, the thermostat. The thermostat is a simple way to illustrate a marital dynamic. There have been several threads on it from a few years ago, by absolutely brilliant posters. In 2014, I came to this site in a sexless, loveless, respect-less marriage. These posters taught me how to incorporate the fundamentals into my marital dynamic. I owe so much to them, without which my current, happy marriage would have been dead and gone. Buckle up. This is going to be lengthy.

The thermostat is a simple term to use to reference the heat level in a marriage. It is especially useful in sexless marriages, but applies to any dynamic when you think carefully about it. The high drive (HD) partner is someone who likes the thermostat hotter. They want sex three times per week? The thermostat is is at about 85 degrees. Daily? Closer to 90 degrees. Conversely, the low drive (LD) partner likes the thermostat cooler. They want sex once per month? Closer to 60 degrees. Once per year? Closer to 40 degrees. No sex in several years? 32 degrees. You catch the drift. It is a sliding scale. 

That is the simple view, but there is so much more to it. You see, the LD (or cooler thermostat) partner is the one who sets the temperature. The HD partner then normally proceeds to do any number of intelligent (and often not so intelligent) things to raise the temperature of the thermostat. This often involves everything from talks, to negotiations, to threats, to begging, among many other things. 

But there is one thing that all of them have in common: the HD partner is insisting the only way to fix the problem is that they themselves try to raise the thermostat. It almost always fails. Then you get what we see in so many of these threads...the two choice close (divorce or suck it up). 

But let's think about the thermostat for just a moment. The LD partner is accustomed to two things. One, they know the HD partner is going to somehow try to increase the thermostat. Two, they know the LD partner is going to continue to carry the relationship. The last thing they expect is for the HD partner to reduce the thermostat to zero. Not 32 degrees, not 20 degrees, but absolute zero. This is where many posters, in their desire to help, suggest the 180. While the 180 and the reduced thermostat have many things in common, it is not the 180. The 180 is intended to help you heal from an abusive relationship. Reducing the thermostat is designed to get your LD partner to realize that they are not the only one that gets to pick and choose how they invest in the relationship.

So...how does one go about reducing the thermostat to absolute zero? First, make a list of everything you believe you do for your wife. Everything. Rubbing her feet...hugging her...calling her on the way home to see if she needs anything...calling her in the middle of the day to check on her...allowing her to vent to you after a stressful day...opening the pickle jar... Make a list of all of it.

Now, to validate that list is actually things you do for her (versus for both of you, or for the kids), pretend for a moment she would pass away tomorrow. Take another look at that list, and circle everything that would stop after her passing. THESE are the things that you will stop. Every...single...one of them.

Then pick a day to start. She asks you to open the pickle jar. Simply smile, look at her, and say, "No." If she asks why, you say something to the effect of, "I don't really feel like it", or even better, "It's just not important to me". You will follow this same protocol for all of the circled items on the list. There will be no exceptions.

Simultaneously, you will begin your journey to self enlightenment. This starts with a two book requirement:

No More Mister Nice Guy (henceforth referred to as NMMNG) by Robert Glover
Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s by Wayne Levine

The first teaches you to understand the foundation to loving yourself begins in how you allow others to treat you. The second teaches you to prioritize the things that actually matter (your Non-negotiable Unalterable Terms, or N.U.T.'s) and using your N.U.T.'s to make all of your decisions moving forward. Get in shape. Read like it is your J.O.B. Become the most interesting version of yourself you possibly can...not for her...but for YOU.

You will immerse yourself in a hobby. Find something like kickboxing, BJJ, Crossfit, or something high intensity with some competitive edge to it to work out your frustrations, because trust me, you will be frustrated...it isn't a quick fix. You will do this hobby 3-5 days a week, and only provide minimal communication as to when you are coming or going. Absolute zero. No more date nights ("Date nights are for couples in a romantic relationship"), no more dropping things at work to answer her calls ("You've made it clear that prioritizing each other in the relationship is not important, so I am embracing it as well"), all of it stops. Also, stop initiating sex completely...for now.

This will likely make her anxious, at first. Do not comfort her. The last thing you want to continue doing is providing her comfort in the midst of her imposing discomfort upon you. She will likely later become angry. That is a good thing. This is the opportunity to point out to her that when she is ready to resume prioritizing needs within a relationship, you will be more than willing to do the same. This is normally when you get the "this is all about sex" stuff. When she does, simply smile and tell her she is clearly not ready to prioritize needs in the relationship, then leave the house for a while to go do whatever hobby it is you chose to pursue.

And, if she does not become angry in this process, prepare for divorce as your marriage is over. This may be the inevitable outcome anyway, but your combination of becoming a better, more fit man will prepare you for the next phase of your life. Ultimately, reducing the thermostat is considered the last step before preparing for divorce. 

Look, man. I came to this site in 2014 with a broken marriage to a woman who's respect and attraction to me was somewhere south of zero. It took me about 18 months to truly turn it around. I pressured, negotiated, begged, and any number of other things. Nothing worked until I simply froze the thermostat. And while I wasn't emotionally prepared to initiate divorce, I was willing to let my marriage die on the vine as I was done carrying the water for it. Below are my threads. There is so much solid reading in there from @turnera, @MEM2020, @jld, @anchorwatch, @asladain, and many, many others. Maybe they will help you as well.









Talk About Marriage







talkaboutmarriage.com













Talk About Marriage







talkaboutmarriage.com


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## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

Farside thank you SO much for taking the time to pass this along!!

Please check your messages on SI.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

sideways said:


> Been awhile since I've updated my situation.
> 
> My mom passed away earlier this year. She got sick and ultimately they found she had a very rare form of cancer. From the time they discovered this she passed away three weeks later. My dad passed away four yrs ago but this has rocked me to my core because I was way closer to my mom.
> 
> ...


First of all, I am very sorry about the loss of your mom. I cannot even imagine the pain of it. 
Second, if you have put it out there that you're not happy, and there is clearly no change, I think it's time to stop talking about what you're going to do, and just divorce if that's what you want. If she is willing to try therapy (maybe a sex therapist and individual therapist for her) then I would say wait a few months and see. It's not wasting that much time.


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