# The secret to desire in a long-term relationship



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

REcenlty I've watched a few Ted Talks by this woman. I think she's very good.

In long-term relationships, we often expect our beloved to be both best friend and erotic partner. But as Esther Perel argues, good and committed sex draws on two conflicting needs: our need for security and our need for surprise. So how do you sustain desire? With wit and eloquence, Perel lets us in on the mystery of erotic intelligence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa0RUmGTCYYttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa0RUmGTCYY

I think this would be a good discussion here. What do you think about what she says?


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Heard her on other topics before. She's good...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> I used to think my husband didn't have it in him either, because he told me so.
> 
> I don't think hints and vague terms like "be more passionate" are likely to be successful, for either men or women.
> 
> ...





FrazzledSadHusband said:


> I used to be passionate with my wife, but if I tried a position or something she didn't like, (something we hadn't done before), we were DONE for the day. AND WEEK, AND A COUPLE OF MONTHS for good measure. NO SEX.
> 
> A husband gets conditioned to not push too hard for fear of wandering in a sexless desert.


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## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

I agree with what she espouses in her dialogue.

Successful long-lasting relationships take alot of work and creativity to fan the flame of desire.

My wife and I have been married for 8+ years and together for almost 12 years. We have been fortunate to maintain the passion and desire in our relationship. I probably desire her more today than I ever have and told her so just this morning.

What "stokes the coals" as we like to call it? Giving each other their individuality and space. Communication at both platonic and erotic levels stimulate our emotional bond to each other. Taking spontaneous trips and get-aways (even if only for one night) keeps the "dating" feel to our marriage. Never letting the kids control our relationship has been a mantra that we have tried to maintain throughout our relationship (we have 5 now mostly grown children between us with only one teen-ager remaining in the home). Being self-less to the other even when you don't feel like it (like today I was working on a deadline and knew that she wanted help with the pool and so I set aside my work to clean it and backwash the filters...made her day).

There are many other things that go into keeping the interest and mystery levels high. I'd certainly like to hear what others have to say, too.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

H and I watched it last night. I've seen three of her TED talks. She is excellent! Groundbreaking in understanding the nature of the complications of modern day marriage.

"The very things that define and demonstrate love. Selflessness, safety, commitment...etc are the very things that destroy what defines the erotic." Or something to that effect... 

I thought this was very funny: "What imaginative scenarios that bring out the erotic at night are the very things we would protest against during the day." How very damn true!

Two weeks ago I surprised my H by telling him of the plans I made for us to go see an outdoor concert. He surprised me by then taking us to a secluded parking lot behind a business park where we had really fun sex using one of those giant yoga balls. We laughed and giggled and had a great time.

That's imagination, and planned spontinaity. 

Tomorrow is our 30th anniversary. I would never have imagined our sex life being as varied and full back when we first married.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

He just happened to have a giant yoga ball?


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

*i think he loves me, unsure if he lusts me*

Ugh. This thread hit a nerve. Over the last 8 months my wife and I have made some serious progress. But the mismatch of passion that I perceive has been difficult to for me to overcome. 

When I chase her, text/sext her, talk passionately, try to kiss her passionately, show her sexual intensity, etc. she retreats and never reciprocates. It's "too much." We can laugh and cuss like sailors around each other, but put it in the context of sex and it's suddenly too provocative. I can leave out the expletives and if it's too graphic then that also leads to halts-ville. The only time that it is acceptable is when she's very aroused. Her coming is really the only point that she is willing to let herself go somewhat and get out of her head. And even that is subdued. 

I, however, can start from zero and show passion and intensity as a starting point. If she could show me a quarter of my passion reflected, it would elevate our lovemaking considerably. But she comes silently. I know her orgasms as muscle contractions and shudders only. Maybe some heavy breathing. 

She was very sheltered (religious) growing up (as was my family). When she was growing up she watched Mary Poppins while I was watching porn with a neighbor girl in a back bedroom. She says that's why she feels uncomfortable just letting herself go. But it also extends to accepting my passion. Her guard keeps dropping little by little and I think one day she's going to grow weary of her own insecurities. I can see some cracks in the walls. 

As for the meantime, I can't really tone it down. I have no interest in subduing my displays of passion for her or conforming to her self-imposed rules. In fact, it makes me want to push her boundaries even more. And when she does give in she often finds it so pleasurable that she will bend in that area and work it into our normal. 

I used to withhold a lot of my passion because I knew it made her uncomfortable. But it left me deeply unsatisfied and unfulfilled. I think showing her my true self, unfiltered, has done more to not only make me feel authentic but also to show her it's ok to just let go with the person you love. I still get somewhat frustrated when she can't accept my overtures, but not nearly as frustrated as bottling it all up. I'm not sure what it's like to be with someone who could actually match my intensity. I would think it would be mind blowing. 

Sorry, this was probably wholly unhelpful to he OP. I'll be quiet now. 😀

Edit. Forgot to add that I had to stop caring about how she perceived me. That was a barrier as well. I now own any perceptions that result from my actions. I am unashamed.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

*i think he loves me, unsure if he lusts me*



FrazzledSadHusband said:


> I used to be passionate with my wife, but if I tried a position or something she didn't like, (something we hadn't done before), we were DONE for the day. AND WEEK, AND A COUPLE OF MONTHS for good measure. NO SEX.
> 
> A husband gets conditioned to not push too hard for fear of wandering in a sexless desert.



You accepted no sex as your punishment without creating an issue of it. You admitted your wrongness in doing so. You showed weakness and gave her all your power. 

"No sex for you!" - in the accent and tone of the Soup Nazi.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

*Re: i think he loves me, unsure if he lusts me*

@rich84,

I think your post was a good one because it demonstrated how important it is to be authentic. To not filter yourself in order to be more acceptable or pleasing.

I'm sorry that your wife's religious upbringing had such a predictably damaging effect on her sexual self. But it sounds like you are slowly bringing her out of that shame state of mind. If you haven't already, suggest she visit this website, dedicated to teaching how to have great sex to Christian women. The whole site is set up by Christian women for Christian women.

Christian Nymphos | Married Sex: Spicy, the way God intended it to be!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Okguy said:


> He just happened to have a giant yoga ball?


Actually, we have two. He put the big one in my minivan along with the camp chairs we needed for the concert. He kept me from discovering the ball because he dropped me off at the gate, jumped out to get the chairs before I had even shut my door, so I never saw what was in the back. He had also packed the coconut oil and my favorite padded handcuff! 

Comfortable car sex is one thing I will miss when I get rid of my minivan...


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

*i think he loves me, unsure if he lusts me*



Anon Pink said:


> @rich84,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks. This goes beyond Christianity, unfortunately. She doesn't practice, although I still think she believes in the premises. And I have no religious beliefs. She can spout the f-bomb and GD and whatever else coarse language. What she seems to hold onto is the remnants of the religious indoctrination of purity and modesty in relation to sex. It's as if she is fighting her body's urges and her arousal as apparent wrongs. She is made uncomfortable by sex, nakedness, etc. even if it turns her on. She has shame about her own body, and that is combined with unrealistic insecurities about her own body image. She is just now, after many years of marriage, starting to become comfortable being naked around me. However, If I sexualize it, it still makes her uncomfortable unless she's revved up. I have to be clever to mitigate that response.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

*Re: i think he loves me, unsure if he lusts me*



rich84 said:


> Thanks. This goes beyond Christianity, unfortunately. She doesn't practice, although I still think she believes in the premises. And I have no religious beliefs. She can spout the f-bomb and GD and whatever else coarse language. What she seems to hold onto is the remnants of the religious indoctrination of purity and modesty in relation to sex. It's as if she is fighting her body's urges and her arousal as apparent wrongs. She is made uncomfortable by sex, nakedness, etc. even if it turns her on. She has shame about her own body, and that is combined with unrealistic insecurities about her own body image. She is just now, after many years of marriage, starting to become comfortable being naked around me. However, If I sexualize it, it still makes her uncomfortable unless she's revved up. I have to be clever to mitigate that response.


Clearly, you are a clever husband!

The web site I suggested is still appropriate even if she is no longer a Christian at all because it counters the sexual shame MANY Christian women have that inhibits them from fully embracing their sexuality. This site is dedicated to removing shame from married sex. I really think you should encourage your wife to visit this site.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Esther Perel is an excellent speaker... so much truth to what she says, how she so perfectly explains it ..

How we have a NEED for security .. but also a yearning for ADVENTURE, we want a best friend but also a passionate Lover...we want predictability but also surprise.. 

Another one of her quotes


> "Reconciling love and desire is about bringing together two fundamental, but opposing human needs: our need for safety, security and stability, along with out need for separateness and adventure. For some people, love and desire are inseparable. The safety, security and trust experienced in love works to unleash their desire. For others, they are more disconnected.
> 
> While on the one hand we seek predictability, and stability — these are the promises of the much sought-after committed relationship — our other hand is reaching for more, for mystery, excitement, discovery. Time and time again, it is coming up empty. To sustain desire toward the other, there must be an element of otherness, separateness, a bridge to cross and someone to visit on the other side. Reconciling the erotic and the domestic is not a problem we can solve; it is a paradox we manage...
> 
> "the Crisis of Desire is a Crisis of Imagination"..












I bought Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence: Esther Perel:  7 yrs ago or so.. I remember when reading it -that I didn't always agree with what she said..because at the time.. I was in the throws of erotic overload.. my hormones were off the charts & I couldn't get enough closeness... 

I didn't need any distance at all.. and I was on the Richter scale for feeling passion towards my husband .... it was something I wanted to keep "feeding"...it just felt so da** good.. this lasted for months & months.. 

Now looking back.. it's true we could have had more flirtatious "I'm dripping with desire" romps throughout our marriage... (We did feel like that once we got going but not so much on the "onset" )...

We were always those "2 peas in a pod" Best friends couple.. who did everything together.. this still never changed ... it's just that -that Hormonal surge suddenly opened my eyes to the great allure of more spicing, trying NEW things, the thrill of dirty flirting... having a filthy mind & coming on to him.... Novelty...something we just seemed to take for granted .. not even sure how to explain that.. our minds weren't intuned enough to do something about it.. 

Looking back..I think to myself.. "who was THAT woman!??"... 

We always had that "making love" emotional connection, it was very deep & satisfying...but true.. there could have been more "WOW!" , more THRILL ... as if we hadn't seen each other in a month & felt this urge to "rip each others clothes off" type thing. I was feeling this way -even with all the closeness 8 yrs ago though ! So many factors at play.. our insatiable sex drive being a part of it too. this can mess with our heads & we're always in spicing mode... (if our partners can handle it !).... 

I also bought this book during that time frame.... Kosher Adultery: Seduce and Sin with Your Spouse ..

These are discussed in the book.. 



> * Create erotic desire in the mind, the source of all lust and attraction
> 
> * Look at your spouse with the eyes of a prowling suitor
> 
> ...


Basically...I was seeking ideas, anything to uplift the Eroticism in HIM.. so I'd get more coming back to me! We'll be celebrating our 26th on Wed.. it's been our most sexually exciting / exploring years even.. trying new places, new positions, acting like teens in some ways... we've learned new things about each other, we laugh , joke & get DIRTY more.. 

But we still do most everything together.. I can't see this changing.. that's just what we enjoy..


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

*i think he loves me, unsure if he lusts me*



Anon Pink said:


> Clearly, you are a clever husband!
> 
> 
> 
> The web site I suggested is still appropriate even if she is no longer a Christian at all because it counters the sexual shame MANY Christian women have that inhibits them from fully embracing their sexuality. This site is dedicated to removing shame from married sex. I really think you should encourage your wife to visit this site.



Thanks, anon. I'll have to think of another clever way to introduce it to her. 😄


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

*Re: i think he loves me, unsure if he lusts me*



rich84 said:


> You accepted no sex as your punishment without creating an issue of it. You admitted your wrongness in doing so. You showed weakness and gave her all your power.
> 
> "No sex for you!" - in the accent and tone of the Soup Nazi.


I agree with your statement.

Not to threadjack, but things have changed. My youngest is soon to be 15, so she can't carry thru to "Take the kids and leave" anymore. My best friend from school went thru a nightmare marriage & custody battle, so I didn't want to take a chance on losing kids. 

I gave her ultimatum to deal with the baggage she brought into marriage or it was OVER. I've gotten quite passionate with her, to the point of rag doll. 

She enjoys it, then later gets upset that she enjoyed it. There is a lot of truth to what is said on this site "You have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it"

One other site that I have found has good articles that I give to my wife is The Forgiven Wife - Learning to Dance with Desire

Personally, I am still dealing with resentment & sometimes ask myself why I want to stay with someone that would hold access to your own kids over your head.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

*Re: i think he loves me, unsure if he lusts me*

@FrazzledSadHusband, 

You should have your wife read Mating In Captivity by Esther Perel. She also has several TED talks about marriage and married sex. She is fantastic!

When you sense your wife feeling remorse or shame, comfort her and remind her that married sex is an anything goes venue. Nothing wrong with enjoying overly passionate sex.

I used to feel shame about my particular kinks. I am a strong woman, I don't shrink from disagreements and no one would ever call me submissive about anything. I felt I was literally insulting myself any time I became aroused thinking about my kinks. 

This is why embracing your sexual self is so important. Being a kinky sexual submissive who LOVES being tied up and ordered about doesn't change the essential me. Our sexual selves are not really something we have control over. We can't force ourselves to be turned on by soft music any more than we can force ourselves to be turned on by being threatened with a spanking! 

I will say this, a lot of repressed women seem to secretly cream their panties about being dominated by their lover. A very common "kink" for women. Not all women, but a lot of women.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm in the process right now of listening to her audiobook mating in captivity. Highly recommended.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

*Re: i think he loves me, unsure if he lusts me*



Anon Pink said:


> @FrazzledSadHusband,
> 
> You should have your wife read Mating In Captivity by Esther Perel. She also has several TED talks about marriage and married sex. She is fantastic!
> 
> ...


Thanks for the book info, I will get it & give it to her. Up to her to read it. 

The eye opener for me-- short summary - she said she had been raped & abused by her high school boyfriend, and a lot of what I wanted to do, he had done to her.

About a month after my ultimatum, she was upstairs reading in our bedroom. I had cooked supper, and went up & said "Supper's ready, come eat before it gets cold." She kinda ignored me. So I said on just a weird thought "Come eat, or I'm gonna have my way with you!" She put her book down and just gave me a "I dare U" look. Bedroom door got locked & I removed her clothes asap. I proceeded to do several things I always wanted to but she said no to, main one being me going down on her. We got done and she looked at me and said "That wasn't so bad after all"

After supper, I took her for a walk and asked her "You do understand that if you would have said STOP at any point I would have?" She said "Yes, knowing that let me enjoy it".

Totally freakin insane mindf--- for me that actually getting forceful with a person that suffered abuse would be pleasurable for her. After she told me that, all I could do was hug her & tell her "That's how passionate I do feel for you, we are experiencing ONENESS, not just sex

I did give my wife "The Sexually Confident Wife" by Shannon Etheridge. That is a pretty good book too.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

*Re: i think he loves me, unsure if he lusts me*



Anon Pink said:


> @EleGirl, I think we have thread jacked this thread! Do you think we should move some of these posts to a new thread starting with post 25, or maybe just add them to your thread in General about the Esther Perel Ted Talk?
> 
> @rich84 and @FrazzledSadHusband, do you agree?


Works for me, I've been trying to decide if it would be helpful to summarize what I've been thru since my ultimatum and original thread that I started "What do I do, am I unreasonable?"

Sorry if I assisted in a threadjacking!:grin2:


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## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> "The very things that define and demonstrate love. Selflessness, safety, commitment...etc are the very things that destroy what defines the erotic." Or something to that effect...


I don't agree that selflessness destroys erotic love. In my case, it uplifts it.

Like yesterday, when I went out of my way to do the pool for my wife when I was working on Saturday to meet a work deadline. When I was lying in bed last night reading on here and just after I submitted my first post on this thread, she comes to bed and surprises me with her thankfulness for my selfless act to her.

I look up and she has oils to rub my back, is wearing an incredibly sexy black lingerie and has gotten out the coconut oil. We had one of the best nights of sex that I can remember in quite a while that lasted the remainder of the night.

So, that's why I say that our selfless acts enhance the erotic love that we have for each other. :grin2:


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Just ordered "mating in captivity". I like how she thinks.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

autopilot said:


> I don't agree that selflessness destroys erotic love. In my case, it uplifts it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's not what she's talking about. She being Esther Pearl.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

autopilot said:


> I don't agree that selflessness destroys erotic love. In my case, it uplifts it.
> 
> Like yesterday, when I went out of my way to do the pool for my wife when I was working on Saturday to meet a work deadline. When I was lying in bed last night reading on here and just after I submitted my first post on this thread, she comes to bed and surprises me with her thankfulness for my selfless act to her.
> 
> ...


Have you listened to the video? It's more complex than that.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@autopilot, I understand and agree with your point about selfless acts of service. 

What Esther Perel was talking about though was the apparent selfishness of passion and eroticism. Passionate lovers demonstrate a healthy level of selfishness, a greed for pleasure. This works best when both lovers demonstrate that selfishness and greed for pleasure. Yes lovers should be attentive to the needs of their partners but they should also be attentive to their own needs and desires.


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## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Have you listened to the video? It's more complex than that.


I understand that. I was just commenting that "selflessness" doesn't destroy erotic love in our case. It does just the opposite.

And, yes, I did watch the video last night.

There are so many things that go into keeping the fire burning. As some have said that selflessness is one of those that actually keeps erotic love from being sustained, I had to disagree. It is a turn-on for both of us. And maybe we are the exception in that regard. I don't know. All I do know is that the more selflessness that goes into our relationship, the more powerful the erotic love sensation becomes.


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## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> @autopilotWhat Esther Perel was talking about though was the apparent selfishness of passion and eroticism. Passionate lovers demonstrate a healthy level of selfishness, a greed for pleasure. This works best when both lovers demonstrate that selfishness and greed for pleasure. Yes lovers should be attentive to the needs of their partners but they should also be attentive to their own needs and desires.


Maybe I need to go back and watch it again. It was 3 a.m. when I watched it and so maybe I didn't get the whole discussion.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

We have watched her on TED ...I'll be getting the audio book too now after reading this thread


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Tomorrow is our 30th anniversary. I would never have imagined our sex life being as varied and full back when we first married.


Happy anniversary for tomorrow!

It's great to read a 'voice' here that's joyful, sexy and fun when referring to their marriage.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

autopilot said:


> I don't agree that selflessness destroys erotic love. In my case, it uplifts it.
> 
> Like yesterday, when I went out of my way to do the pool for my wife when I was working on Saturday to meet a work deadline. When I was lying in bed last night reading on here and just after I submitted my first post on this thread, she comes to bed and surprises me with her thankfulness for my selfless act to her.
> 
> ...


I can relate to this post.. myself & Husband treat each other similar to what you have described here... we are highly affectionate towards each other, we do show appreciation for the little things ...he's very sensual & giving, I'm a huge romantic. 

But then sometimes we FIGHT too.. (it's not often at all & it's always something stupid for that matter) .... but I have noticed the times we have.. boy was the sex HOT afterwards.. like I needed him like AIR.... at one point he was accusing me of fighting with him just to have make up sex.... this wasn't true.... but it sure made everything better !


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

*Re: i think he loves me, unsure if he lusts me*



FrazzledSadHusband said:


> About a month after my ultimatum, she was upstairs reading in our bedroom. I had cooked supper, and went up & said "Supper's ready, come eat before it gets cold." She kinda ignored me. So I said on just a weird thought "Come eat, or I'm gonna have my way with you!" She put her book down and just gave me a "I dare U" look. Bedroom door got locked & I removed her clothes asap. I proceeded to do several things I always wanted to but she said no to, main one being me going down on her. We got done and she looked at me and said "That wasn't so bad after all"
> 
> .




:dreamy sigh:


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I like what she has to say. 'The crisis of desire is often a crisis of the imagination.' 'Fire needs air, desire needs space.'

The question she raised of when are we most drawn to our partners - both my husband and I have particularly felt the answers mentioned of the second and third groups. As Esther says, seeing our partner radiant and confident; self-sustaining. We absolutely feel that. She words this so eloquently, 'I look at this person and I momentarily get a shift in perception and I'm open to the mysteries living right next to me.' 'There's no neediness in desire.' 'When I'm surprised, when we laugh together.' 'Novelty is what parts of you do you bring out; sex isn't something you do, sex is a place you go, a space you enter.'

She's on the money. Great concept and talk for discussions EleGirl.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

*The secret to desire in a long-term relationship2*



heartsbeating said:


> I like what she has to say. 'The crisis of desire is often a crisis of the imagination.' 'Fire needs air, desire needs space.'
> 
> The question she raised of when are we most drawn to our partners - both my husband and I have particularly felt the answers mentioned of the second and third groups. As Esther says, seeing our partner radiant and confident; self-sustaining. We absolutely feel that. She words this so eloquently, 'I look at this person and I momentarily get a shift in perception and I'm open to the mysteries living right next to me.' 'There's no neediness in desire.' 'When I'm surprised, when we laugh together.' 'Novelty is what parts of you do you bring out; sex isn't something you do, sex is a place you go, a space you enter.'
> 
> She's on the money. Great concept and talk for discussions EleGirl.



This thread is timely for me. I just downloaded her book and started it before I found this. I totally agree with the above. 

For years I kept trying to create more and more intimacy with my wife. What more could I do to show my love? What ways could I more completely meet her needs? I kept thinking that these were the questions to unlock her desire. Sadly, it only further killed our sex life. And all that energy I expended trying to get closer just made me resentful when it wasn't reciprocated. 

It has been in this year that I have focused more on myself and becoming my own separate, interesting person. I'm finding my own happiness and not co-dependently looking to her for it. I stopped worrying what she thought so much. Will she like it if go and do this, say this? Now I do and say what I feel. I radiate my own vibe and attempt to not show neediness - my neediness was in fact an attempt to leverage more intimacy and that was killing her desire. She needs to see me (I believe) operate on a closely parallel but separate track. She needs me to lead, decide, find interest, be happy independently of her. That's sexy. Also being better at actual seduction, flirtation, and playfulness is a bonus too. 

In that respect, HNHN was not a good book for me and it didn't help me turn around that painfully ineffective dynamic. Honestly, as much scorn as it gets around here, some concepts for MMSLP were actually more helpful. 

What's funny is that she basically trained me to be codependent from he start. I mean, I started out my own person. When I would do something independent or selfish she would pine and throw fits because she wanted to close all the distance between us. But a decade into our relationship, that level of oneness is the death of passion. There is no mystery, intrigue, novelty, inspiration. I was woefully unprepared for this thing called marriage.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

We watched her TED talk yesterday, and think she is very insightful and inspired. What we learned is that we are usually _too considerate _of each other. We'd have lots more sex if we were _a little more selfish_, and neither of us would be upset or put off if the other were more selfish in expressing desire. So, daily sex can again become twice daily sex - or more. I can wake her up in the morning for sex even if she's been awake most of the night with insomnia - she'll sleep later. She can drag me off to the bedroom when I get home from work instead of giving me space to unwind first - what better way to unwind than sex, anyway? There will be rare times when this selfish approach won't work, but we can be honest about it without being offended.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

*The secret to desire in a long-term relationship2*



Married but Happy said:


> We watched her TED talk yesterday, and think she is very insightful and inspired. What we learned is that we are usually _too considerate _of each other. We'd have lots more sex if we were _a little more selfish_, and neither of us would be upset or put off if the other were more selfish in expressing desire. So, daily sex can again become twice daily sex - or more. I can wake her up in the morning for sex even if she's been awake most of the night with insomnia - she'll sleep later. She can drag me off to the bedroom when I get home from work instead of giving me space to unwind first - what better way to unwind than sex, anyway? There will be rare times when this selfish approach won't work, but we can be honest about it without being offended.



This might work in the short term for me, but long term I think it would backfire. You and your partner seem to have congruous libidos and your lack of higher frequency can be attributed to a simple lack of communication regarding the true frequency of desire. However, if one desires the other at a significantly higher interval, selfishness is just perceived by the lower drive person as... selfishness. They're no longer agreeing to a mutually beneficial experience based on the initial, stronger desire of the other party. They're giving of themselves solely for the other party's benefit. The other party becomes "needy" (read draining). It breeds resentment and actually shuts down desire for the lower drive person. "It'll never be enough. You're never happy. I give up." Waking her up for sex? Hahaha. I imagine a bear being summoned from hibernation would be more benevolent. 

Kudos on two-a-days. I'm not sure I would need it that often every day, but I sure as hell would have fun testing it out. Twice in one weekend was an accomplishment for me and my wife. And Friday was after midnight, which is usually far beyond the shelf life of a day's given sexual opportunity!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I am not sure if Esther Perel's ideas are going to make any difference when it comes to a spouse who is just shut down to their own sexuality, or has a naturally low libido. 

I think her ideas are best for those who have healthy sex drives but just aren't that into it with each other anymore, due to too much familiarity.

For someone who is shut down, familiarity isn't going to make it worse, necessarily. They will be shut down either way.

It also won't help if your spouse resents or secretly hates you for some reason(s). Or if one or both spouses have lost physical attraction for each other, desire can be hard to start up, as well.

For myself and my relationship, I can testify that keeping some mystery, some space, and some selfishness in place has added to our spicy, amazing sex life. Going on 11 years and never once have felt a drop in desire for each other. But there's also just the fact that we are both highly sexual, always have been and apparently always will be as far as we can tell at this time, and we are both extremely attracted to each other. For couples like us where there is a good match of two highly sexual people, I'm not sure if the familiarity would actually dampen our desire for each other. I can't imagine anything dampening it, really. We have been way closer and in each other's space and daily stuff a lot more than we are now, and although that did cause some tension between us, it didn't zap our mutual desire.

So it is a little confusing...is the familiarity causing all the problems, or are we looking at couples who are mismatched, not very sexual, or not attracted to each other anymore?


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

*The secret to desire in a long-term relationship2*



Faithful Wife said:


> So it is a little confusing...is the familiarity causing all the problems, or are we looking at couples who are mismatched, not very sexual, or not attracted to each other anymore?



First, I am jealous. 😄 If my spouse matched my sexuality we would probably never leave the house. I've often wondered what it would be like to be with a partner that was my sexual equal in terms of drive, adventurousness, etc. Not sure if this is disturbingly narcissistic, but I've actually pondered what a female, identical version of me (in terms of attitudes, beliefs, thought processes, etc.) would be like as a partner. I can't decide if that would be heaven or hell. In my fantasy, complete congruence would be awesome, but according to this author the familiarity would kill it. I digress. 

Secondly, who says it has to be either familiarity or the others. Could be a combination of all of the above! 😳


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

rich84 said:


> Secondly, who says it has to be either familiarity or the others. Could be a combination of all of the above!


I haven't read the book, but it seems like when I watched the TED talk, Esther really didn't address things like a complete mismatch, loss of attraction, or one spouse being sexually shut down for their own reasons (may or may not have to do with the other spouse). It seemed like she was implying that all waning sexual relationships were possibly caused by too much familiarity. That's what I was addressing, which seemed to be her position.

IMO, yes it could be a combo of all of the above.

I actually think more time spent upfront by anyone considering marriage learning about themselves (gaining sexual self-awareness), and learning about how new relationships have more sex than longer relationships (therefore, we can't always count on what is happening in the few 2 years to remain constant) and learning about how expensive and heartbreaking a divorce can be...would stop people from thinking naive things about sexual relationships.

If people could deliberately match themselves with someone who is a good sexual match for them, there may be less problems like these. Likewise, if people didn't think silly things like "it will get better", based on no evidence that it will, just wishful thinking that somehow love or marriage "fixes" a sexual mismatch, there would be a lot less heartache over these issues.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> So it is a little confusing...is the familiarity causing all the problems, or are we looking at couples who are mismatched, not very sexual, or not attracted to each other anymore?


I agree with much of what you said, and don't think familiarity can be blamed for all problems.

I do think, though, that familiarity can breed complacency, that we can "forget" why we are with our partner, or start taking them for granted, or think that we already know all there is to know about them (even though we probably don't). And in those cases, I would agree that familiarity can cause some pretty serious problems.

Of course, it isn't really the familiarity ... but the taking for granted. At least IMHO.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I agree with much of what you said, and don't think familiarity can be blamed for all problems.
> 
> I do think, though, that familiarity can breed complacency, that we can "forget" why we are with our partner, or start taking them for granted, or think that we already know all there is to know about them (even though we probably don't). And in those cases, I would agree that familiarity can cause some pretty serious problems.
> 
> Of course, it isn't really the familiarity ... but the taking for granted. At least IMHO.


Yes and I agree, there are lots of relationships where the main problem is exactly as Esther described, including the taking for granted part. Her work is helpful to millions of people, for sure.

Was just saying that I don't think that is the case in all relationships...some mismatches aren't going to be good whether they keep the mystery alive or not...they are simply two people who don't vibe together well sexually and never will.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

autopilot said:


> I understand that. I was just commenting that "selflessness" doesn't destroy erotic love in our case. It does just the opposite.
> 
> And, yes, I did watch the video last night.
> 
> There are so many things that go into keeping the fire burning. As some have said that selflessness is one of those that actually keeps erotic love from being sustained, I had to disagree. It is a turn-on for both of us. And maybe we are the exception in that regard. I don't know. All I do know is that the more selflessness that goes into our relationship, the more powerful the erotic love sensation becomes.


Because of where you are coming from.. which I completely understand..I've always felt the romanticism is a huge part of the passion in my own marriage... 

Yet...it's WHY when reading her stuff and listening to her at times ... I have to stop, I will even start questioning...is there something wrong with us ?? 

Husband & I listened to her last night (this Ted talk) side by side... he could see where she is coming from..(which I want him to see as honestly he COULD step it up in some areas!)....yet this is what he said he learned ......

Basically...he felt he had to become someone else in the bedroom...which was a bummer for me to hear... we even had a little SPAT in the am about it.. because really he could be more spontaneous , adventurous & surprise me sometimes... 

I am far more the one who brings this .... he is very predictable (yes these are Beta traits in a man)...I could offer a handful of things he has introduced in the last 6 yrs ....yet in the affectionate sense, the giving aspects, his attention, feeling connected, adored, wanted even (the man does love sex)....he is rather overload.. so on the scales he is probably too high in that area (being selfless , giving) but not enough in the "selfishly TAKING HIS WOMAN" aspect..

I HAVE most certainly craved this.. to the point of doing a spice jar to suggest his sexually surprising me.. I've been very forthcoming about it... ...he struggles here!!.. I guess it's hard for any of us human's to have it ALL... and bring it ALL..

I have resolved the fact this is not a "NEED" for me -- just a want... 

We're off on a little overnight get away.. I just told him before he went to sleep.. that this is why It's not that big of a deal.. cause he makes up for it in other ways.... He always tells me he will TRY harder to bring those things.... I have to give him some grace here.. and not be too hard on him, as this won't do us any favors but make him feel he's not enough for me. 



Married but Happy said:


> We watched her TED talk yesterday, and think she is very insightful and inspired.* What we learned is that we are usually too considerate of each other. We'd have lots more sex if we were a little more selfish, and neither of us would be upset or put off if the other were more selfish in expressing desire. *So, daily sex can again become twice daily sex - or more. I can wake her up in the morning for sex even if she's been awake most of the night with insomnia - she'll sleep later. She can drag me off to the bedroom when I get home from work instead of giving me space to unwind first - what better way to unwind than sex, anyway? *There will be rare times when this selfish approach won't work, but we can be honest about it without being offended.*










... how true it is.. if you both enjoy the experience.. one needs to take the lead ...and show that insiatiableness.. this is how the other gets warmed up!

This is how it was for us.. when he was HIGHER drive, in more need.. so he's told me.. he never wanted me TO THINK It was "just about sex" cause it never was to him....he had to feel some want on my end.. or he'd give up too easily...this did us no favors at all !.. but when the tables turned...

Well... I'm not like my husband.... I couldn't contain how I felt.. I'd go after him, make it hard to resist... the good thing was/is -this is a turn on to him -feeling my selfish desire...that's his fantasy (the woman pursuing him-ha ha).... even if he couldn't keep up, he still welcomed it!.. so we've had LOTS more sex when I was the higher drive...


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

I have read her book Mating in Captivity during the relationship introspection period of my SSM. 

I do think that she does make a good point about comfort versus surprise. Still in a young marriage, where children need to be taken care of planning is required for sex time and quickies can sometimes be all that there is time for. 

During the empty nest period, I think she has more insights, but also this is a time when some physical problems can develop and when old interaction habits become hard to break.

I liked her book and took some things away from it for my marriage, but I felt she only got things partly right. Chapmans 5 LL, MW Davis SSM, and Glover's NMNMG scored in the 80 to 90% range. Scharch once I finally understood what he was saying in PM and Crucible was a 90+%.

I sure know that when I discussed concepts and named who the author was the sex therapist who was helping my wife and me, was really surprised and really wanted to talk about some of their writing. It also made her have at time two sets of homework for us, one for the two of us and "extra reading" if we wanted to explore concepts in depth.

Your mileage may vary.


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## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yet...it's WHY when reading her stuff and listening to her at times ... I have to stop, I will even start questioning...is there something wrong with us ??
> 
> Basically...he felt he had to become someone else in the bedroom...which was a bummer for me to hear... because really he could be more spontaneous , adventurous & surprise me sometimes.


You are very normal in my opinion.

We guys are not wired to be spontaneous or creative, generally speaking. I had to learn to become that way for my wife's sake because it is one of her "love languages". She likes to be surprised and definitely wants me to take charge of her. That is a huge turn-on for her. I've even learned that she likes a little "rough" sex (kind of the animal-instinctive drive of insatiable desire).

Don't be too hard on him. Now that he knows what it is that you need to feel the desire, I'll bet he tries to meet that need.


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