# Am I expecting too much? I would particularly like to hear from WS please



## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

I wd really like to hear from WS. Though opinions from BSs welcome, but I think they will prob feel as I do. Tell me if I am wrong. 

Basically, we got together Oct 2009, DD May 2011, he supposedly slept with her 4 times, his ex, Dec 09, Jan, Feb & July 2010. There are many things that indicate he is being truthful, and a few big things that indicate not. Since it all came out we spoke about it intensely for the first couple of weeks. Then we hit a block. I wanted to know what triggered the July episode, why after 5 months break would he go back, and after we were a definite item by then, 9 months into our relationship. And why did he stop seeing her then. Why not just carry on. Trigger for July was the main thing. He clammed up, defensive, angry, would walk out, go home, we wouldn't see each other for a few days, back together, nothing mentioned, til I brought it up again. That question along with others. He talked now and again, but mostly angry, defensive, walked. And we spent pretty much the next 6 months like that. For every 10 times I brought it up, he would calmly chat about once. And he did finally chat about that issue. But...the answer was nothing major. I wonder if he did not know the answer and that's why he clammed up and walked. Tho in my head he was hiding something major. He is an avoider BTW. He does not like to deal with 'issues'. 

Anyway, throughout that time, and up until a couple of weeks ago, he has told me the odd lie. Basically to do with not wanting to discuss something I ask him. His way of avoiding the subject. Often to do with sex, her, me. I didn't want to know gory details, but I did want to know basic. e.g. was she kinky. Is that why he cdn't resist going to her. He would say no. I think the answer is yes. And about 3 wks ago, another blatant lie to me on the sex subject, I broke with him & told him I cd not be with a liar. I have made it clear all the way through that he shldn't lie to me and that my way of dealing with it is to talk all through calmly but honestly, for him to answer my questions that swim in my head. He wanted to get back together, I told him I cannot if he ever lies to me again, big or small. And that I need to talk about it all. All. To the N'th degree. And possibly again. And no more lies. He felt he could manage this. I told him fine if he can't. He said he can. So, he was finally more truthful. I have spoken to him several times and he has answered all. We have been calm. And all seemed really good. (Only been for 2-3 wks since our last split tho) 

Then...I bring up a subject last Fri that I have not brought up for a very long time, unrelated to his ex, but all part of the same kind of behaviour, and it happened around the same time frame. So it was while he was a very bad bf and very slyly cruel. BTW, he has done a complete 180 on the good/bad bf behaviour. Is now pretty darn perfect with general behaviour and attitude. Obviously the affair scenario sours it all. I brought that issue up, he got cross, 'not this again, we have done this so many times (but this was in the period following the incident in early 2010, and maybe once or twice in the aftermath of DD) and so Fri he refused to talk. No chance of chat whatsoever. We were at his house, and so I went home. I feel I have now got to the end of the rd. This, after him finally saying he'd talk when I need to etc. And I thought we were getting somewhere, as did he. After him agreeing no more lies, and to talk, HE thought we getting somewhere! He now says that he can't take it any longer, that he can't take the constant accusations (there were no accusations, just chat, but I do believe that there may be other occasion/s with a.n.other due to a few suspicious circumstances, evidence, and his affair pattern of behaviour I do bring this up here and there and have made it clear I believe there is something else he hasn't told me). But his refusal to chat, no accusations whatsoever fuelled that (tho I did throw it at him after he got cross at me for wanting to talk, and after his refusal to talk). I am fed up with this issue, I just want to talk til its all gone from my head. He is fed up with this issue and feels he has talked enough and wants to bury it now. I have told him we've only just started due to him refusing to talk so many times and lying here and there. We just got to a point at which he was willing to talk, and be totally honest. And now he has pulled away again. Is this just normal behaviour? Am I expecting too much? When is it enough talk? How does it feel as a Wayward for yor partner to want to bring it up and go through it to the N'th degree? Does it help? Am I being unreasonable in my expectations?


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## pcpain (Dec 15, 2011)

Having read your previous posts it appears that, even under normal circumstances, he is difficult to open up. You have told him that communication is key for you...that he needs to tell you everything but you are still struggling for answers....
Is there something in particular you think he is avoiding telling you to save hurting you further maybe?
What more is there you feel has not been explained yet?

Peoples behaviour and affairs are not logical so trying to apply logic to them in the cold light of day is unlikely to get you anywhere. It is unlike ly even he understands the why's and how's so he's probably going to be unable to communicate these well to you. And if he was capable and told you everthing tomorrow it's likely you would still feel he's not telling you everything. Sometimes you have to let this go...if only for your own sanity...and accept where you are today. 
Sadly that's what's brings you here, I'm sorry you are going through this, but here you will find some sanity, comfort, and good advice.

You are where you are now and your decision now is whether to accept what has come your way and move forward together or that you won't accept it and part ways....


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

pcpain said:


> Having read your previous posts it appears that, even under normal circumstances, he is difficult to open up. You have told him that communication is key for you...that he needs to tell you everything but you are still struggling for answers....
> Is there something in particular you think he is avoiding telling you to save hurting you further maybe?
> What more is there you feel has not been explained yet?


When I look at the evidence (I guess you will know what that is from reading my previous post) it seems completely obvious he is hiding something else. I feel stupid for even questioning the fact as it seems so obvious. He says there is nothing. But I spent a year and half questioning him on seeing someone else, the suspicious circumstances, him saying it was nothing, giving me flannel, I just need to drop it etc til the penny dropped and I was so convinced I told him he'd better tell me because if not it is over. I had to literally squeeze it out of him like blood from a stone, and he knew he had nothing to lose because if he did not tell me it would be over anyway. And so, if there was anything else, would he tell me? I think not. And so it has become a lose lose situation. If he's telling me the truth, I don't know, because since all came out he has not been truthful, and I have extensive experience of him lying through his teeth til he was so cornered that he had no other choice.

I also feel there is a lot of stuff that hasn't been explained fully yet. That he is sugar coating the truth to make it easier for him to tell, and easier for me to hear. But it does not, because all that succeeds in doing is making it not understandable and not make sense. I can take the brutality of it, and have told him numerous times. And yet he has still lied in order to sugar coat it.

I also wonder...a lot...if he is only with me because his ex didn't want him. I feel all his behaviour around that time was indicating that, the way he treated me was unbelievable sometimes. Like dirt. Like I was just a time filler. Someone to help him get over the one he really loved. And yet he says that it was only right at the very beginning that he would've gone back to her. December. January maybe. But not after that. That he loved me. But if he did, why would he be so nasty in so many areas (the issue I asked him about on Fri being one example) for such a long time. Pretty much the 1st year of our relationship. And so, if it was the case that I was just a time filler, and he was only with me because she wouldn't have him, that she was his real love, is it the case now? I think probably not, but at which point did he fall in love with me fully, and fall out of love with her? These are the kinds if things I need to know. I need to feel secure. And he is not doing that by sugar coating it. 



pcpain said:


> Peoples behaviour and affairs are not logical so trying to apply logic to them in the cold light of day is unlikely to get you anywhere. It is unlike ly even he understands the why's and how's so he's probably going to be unable to communicate these well to you. And if he was capable and told you everthing tomorrow it's likely you would still feel he's not telling you everything. Sometimes you have to let this go...if only for your own sanity...and accept where you are today.
> Sadly that's what's brings you here, I'm sorry you are going through this, but here you will find some sanity, comfort, and good advice.
> 
> You are where you are now and your decision now is whether to accept what has come your way and move forward together or that you won't accept it and part ways....


Yes, I am trying to apply logic. Trying to understand. I want to know the why's. He has told me different why's, trying to fathom it out himself I guess. You offer a good perspective, he has said much of that himself but I struggle to believe him. If only he had been honest with me following it all coming out. And now...he came over yesterday to get his stuff from mine. I have felt ok over the weekend, Monday not so good, and yesterday felt sick and lumps in my throat, a feeling of dread for the future, that I am not going to be with the man I want, the love of my life, any longer. He didn't want to go, I didn't want him to go. He stayed, we had a loving eve, a loving morning, and now I feel I am back to square 1. That I have let back in the man who has caused me so much heartache, who refuses to talk so many times, and I am scared of bringing up the questions again. Reading over my post has sent me right back to where I was. Headache, sick, sad. Reminded me of what I am upset about. I guess it would come back anyway, but coming back here has brought it on sooner, by maybe a day or 2. He's supposed to be coming back for lunch too. 
I am off work. Able to stew in the unanswered questions. I hope we are back together on the understanding that I still need to talk. I guess I will find that out very shortly. 

Am I hanging on too much? Especially as he is now a great bf and has been for the past year or so. Though the couple of episodes I believe he has done something else were this time last year. And possibly later. He had one of his wobbles, a repeat of the way he treated me when he slept with her. Same pattern of behaviour. And 2 pieces of evidence that back up that idea. As I am writing, I feel convinced again. Each time in the past I have been convinced, I was right. So am I this time? I do not know. I feel I am.


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## pcpain (Dec 15, 2011)

Remains said:


> When I look at the evidence (I guess you will know what that is from reading my previous post) it seems completely obvious he is hiding something else. I feel stupid for even questioning the fact as it seems so obvious. He says there is nothing. But I spent a year and half questioning him on seeing someone else, the suspicious circumstances, him saying it was nothing, giving me flannel, I just need to drop it etc til the penny dropped and I was so convinced I told him he'd better tell me because if not it is over. I had to literally squeeze it out of him like blood from a stone, and he knew he had nothing to lose because if he did not tell me it would be over anyway. And so, if there was anything else, would he tell me? I think not. And so it has become a lose lose situation. If he's telling me the truth, I don't know, because since all came out he has not been truthful, and I have extensive experience of him lying through his teeth til he was so cornered that he had no other choice.
> 
> I also feel there is a lot of stuff that hasn't been explained fully yet. That he is sugar coating the truth to make it easier for him to tell, and easier for me to hear. But it does not, because all that succeeds in doing is making it not understandable and not make sense. I can take the brutality of it, and have told him numerous times. And yet he has still lied in order to sugar coat it.
> 
> ...



You have a mass of stuff going through your head which is totally understandable in your situation. So many questions that for you are unanswered or not answered to your satisfaction. You should be pressing for these details, it is right that you should feel you need to know every twist and turn. My hunch is,however, that you possibly getting hung up on so much of the fine detail that you have lost sight of the bigger picture. Not a critisism as it's very easy to do especially if we are detail people. It seems he feels he has given this and you feel he hasn't. 
I understand how exhausting it is to go over old ground time and time again but if these details are so vital to you, you need to get him to sit down, with no escaping, and go through all your outstanding questions. If he won't do this you then have a difficult choice to make.
My hunch is you won't get them to your satifaction, he won't remember, he will cover up, he will limit the bad stuff, there is a possibility he loved her, a lot of time has elapsed etc etc. You can give him an ultimatum, though it looks like you've already tried that already...and anyway, are you willing to take risk of a serious ultimatum anyway?
Your other option is not to pursue it anymore... you already know the important big picture here, don't hang yourself up on trying to gain an amout of detail that in reality you are probably never quite going to achieve. It's the big things you need to sort right now.....

Good luck


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

U are so right. So so right. I am caught up in the detail. I keep thinking to myself that all that is in the past, I know he loves me deeply, and I know he is trying hard. Has tried hard. He hasn't put this much hard work into a relationship before, at least not the emotional turmoil, him facing up to stuff. He invested an awful lot in his past relationship & got little in return, why I think he struggled to let her go. And also why he ended up corrupted by that, and by her. I think she was very manipulative. And yet I don't think he has put in nearly enough...but for him, he's put in a lot. He has never faced up to his actions like he has with me. And not for this length of time. Even his Mum said to me the other week that she's surprised, very surprised, that he has stuck around and is still here. That I took to mean regarding his personality, how he avoids difficult situations and issues. So really, I believe he loves me greatly, and the detail...is it important? I don't know. I suppose I keep coming back to, did he cheat again within the last year? Would he cheat again? He is a different man now and I think I would know if he was going to, he would pull away, stop being so loving etc. But then, given the right circumstance, could he refuse a bit of easy sex? I really don't think I could answer that. He says he has turned it down before. Each conclusion I try to come to, there comes another question. Do I just drop it now? Can I? The million $ question.


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## pcpain (Dec 15, 2011)

Remains said:


> U are so right. So so right. I am caught up in the detail. I keep thinking to myself that all that is in the past, I know he loves me deeply, and I know he is trying hard. Has tried hard. He hasn't put this much hard work into a relationship before, at least not the emotional turmoil, him facing up to stuff. He invested an awful lot in his past relationship & got little in return, why I think he struggled to let her go. And also why he ended up corrupted by that, and by her. I think she was very manipulative. And yet I don't think he has put in nearly enough...but for him, he's put in a lot. He has never faced up to his actions like he has with me. And not for this length of time. Even his Mum said to me the other week that she's surprised, very surprised, that he has stuck around and is still here. That I took to mean regarding his personality, how he avoids difficult situations and issues. So really, I believe he loves me greatly, and the detail...is it important? I don't know. I suppose I keep coming back to, did he cheat again within the last year? Would he cheat again? He is a different man now and I think I would know if he was going to, he would pull away, stop being so loving etc. But then, given the right circumstance, could he refuse a bit of easy sex? I really don't think I could answer that. He says he has turned it down before. Each conclusion I try to come to, there comes another question. Do I just drop it now? Can I? The million $ question.



I guess given the right circumstances we are all capable of many things. Would he refuse easy sex? I can't answer that...would he cheat again? I can't answer that either. Those are questions that unfortunately you are now left to answer. That's the crap position he has left you in...as with all of us who reconcile...do you trust him again? You seem to be in a good placee with him currenly and much has changed.
If you want to stay together you have to put faith in him again..complete trust will be gone...can you accept your "new" relationship with him on that basis?


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

pcpain said:


> Your other option is not to pursue it anymore... you already know the important big picture here, don't hang yourself up on trying to gain an amout of detail that in reality you are probably never quite going to achieve. It's the big things you need to sort right now.....
> 
> Good luck


Trouble is that you need the details, I know I did, in order to understand and try to cope. You need to assess the likelyhood of another betrayal since you clearly can't rely on WS own judgements at this stage.

Of course you have every right to know the details unless you have some agreement that you can have secrets to each other.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

cpacan said:


> Trouble is that you need the details, I know I did, in order to understand and try to cope. You need to assess the likelyhood of another betrayal since you clearly can't rely on WS own judgements at this stage.
> 
> Of course you have every right to know the details unless you have some agreement that you can have secrets to each other.


Yes, I do need to know the details. And yes too, secrets are not an option in my relationships, as are lies and deception. 

I have posted another thread, it is a further development in my relationship. 'Advice needed on polygraph test, and on his behaviour' or something like that. I hope that any readers can offer me further advice here, or on my other thread. Thanks in advance. 

I am now feeling convinced that another episode did happen at the beginning of last year. Also, he says a lot to me in the face of questions of things that don't make sense, 'everything has to fit with how Remains does it. It's all gotta be same as you, if different to how you do it then it's not acceptable'. I am in no way an unreasonable person, and I see things from many points if view. I feel this is his attack to defend reaction. Are people who attack in order to defend their actions guilty? Does he do this only when he is hiding something or trying to get off the subject to put me off the scent of exploring it?


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