# How far should I go to help my depressed spouse?



## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

My wife is depressed again. I should have seen this coming, the signs were there. First, the energy, hypersexuality, staying up late. Then the crash.

Today, she spent most of the day in bed, save for texting some really hurtful things to me, while I was in the middle of a very important project at work.

So the question is, how much should I help her when she's depressed. I've always made it clear that I'm here if she wants to reach out. But she doesn't want to. 

I give her space. I usually cook, but when she's depressed, I get pizza or some other comfort food. But all she does is be angry, snap at me and our child or just sulk and lie in bed.

So at some point, I feel that I'm actually helping her stay depressed - she has no reason to not be depressed. I know you can't reason your way out of depression, I've been depressed myself. But the opposite is true too.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

I'm not familiar with your situation. Is your wife receiving counseling? Is she on medication? How often are these episodes?


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

827Aug said:


> I'm not familiar with your situation. Is your wife receiving counseling? Is she on medication? How often are these episodes?


Yes and yes. She sees her psychiatrist weekly, and is on Buspar for anxiety and Risperdal for anger. 

The episodes happen every couple of weeks, and the doctor has tried to see if it correlates with her cycle, and the evidence is inconclusive at this point. There seem to be triggers, which I feel that are often somehow connected to me. But then again it just could be that there's that underlying current that's waiting to bubble up with any excuse.

She also talks about suicide and hurting herself, but she does not appear to be suicidal, and the doctor knows about this. She has hurt herself before by way of picking skin and purging. 

But regardless, when she is in one of these moods, the things she says swing between telling me that I'm hurting her and saying that she's worthless and wondering why I tolerate her. 

And this is emotionally very taxing for me.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

That's what I was wondering--if there was any correlation with her monthly cycle. Has she always been this way?

Unfortunately it sounds as though her psychiatrist may be treating symptoms. Back when I owned a pharmacy I saw that a lot. Those patients made very little progress. If she hasn't been properly tested by a psychologist, you may want to consider doing so. I've had a lot of problems in recent years which we just couldn't identify. My therapist referred me to a neuro-psychologist for a complete evaluation. After two days of testing, he really homed in on my problem areas. He then made recommendations to both my therapist and doctor. It has helped.


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

827Aug said:


> That's what I was wondering--if there was any correlation with her monthly cycle. Has she always been this way?
> 
> Unfortunately it sounds as though her psychiatrist may be treating symptoms. Back when I owned a pharmacy I saw that a lot. Those patients made very little progress. If she hasn't been properly tested by a psychologist, you may want to consider doing so. I've had a lot of problems in recent years which we just couldn't identify. My therapist referred me to a neuro-psychologist for a complete evaluation. After two days of testing, he really homed in on my problem areas. He then made recommendations to both my therapist and doctor. It has helped.


Actually, I think it is the opposite. He is not treating the symptoms, but trying to find the underlying disease. Even when she asked for more medication his comment to it was that "Taking more medicine is not going to fix the underlying problem." He has sent her to a reproductive endocrinologist. But of course, she's really bad with follow-ups, and even got angry at the RE doctor. And those aren't easy to come by.

Frankly I like him, and more importantly my wife does, and that's important so that she'll keep going to him. 

But I do admit that it is taking a long time to find the root cause of it all. Maybe that's just how it is, since there's no simple lab test you can take for these things.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

That's awesome she was sent to an endocrinologist. He must be suspecting she is insulin resistant. That can definitely cause all kind of mood swings, and irritability. Fortunately that is very easy to treat.

Good luck!


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## County (Apr 27, 2012)

Have you/the doctor considered whether a brain MRI would be useful? For two people I know, a friend's wife and a relative (male) of mine, their MRIs revealed brain damage. The friend's wife had similar symptoms to your wife; the male relative had depression too but it manifested differently and he had some additional diagnoses. They had different types of brain damage (including the causes) and in different areas of the brain. This hasn't led to any cures for either of them, but it was helpful in determining treatment/management strategies, and in just the relief for their spouses of having more of an explanation.


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## County (Apr 27, 2012)

p.s. for both of them, they saw a string of psychiatrists and psychologists over many years before they each ended up with one who referred them on to a neurologist.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

You didn't give her clinical depression and you aren't going to cure it unless you can figure out how to alter brain chemistry in another human being. My wife suffers from depression, bipolar, etc. It has gotten bad enough that she had to quit her teaching career. She's in a dark place most days and I get the brunt of her, hostile/suicidal/accusatory/apologetic/etc comments. Guess it just comes with the job. I make sure she eats, takes her meds, attends to personal hygiene, etc. I try to keep the triggers down. About the only thing I'm able to do that seems to help is getting her outdoors, away from the bed, the phone, the TV, the internet, etc. We go for walks with the dogs. She likes going for motorcycle rides. When she's in a funk even little surprises or changes throw her into an immediate spiral. I try to keep these down to a minimum and I just have to make most decisions. There's just so much you can do. Maybe the most important thing you can do is to just keep reminding yourself that she doesn't hate you, she's suffering from an awful disorder. If any other man on earth replaced you as her husband, she'd still be frequently unhappy, hateful, and suicidal with him because she has depression. She has doctors. You're just her husband. Do what you can to be supportive within reason but try not to let her depression define your life or who you are. If you don't have a thick skin, grow one. If her depression lasts long enough and you hear these ugly comments long enough, you might start believing that you really are a worthless piece of crap and the cause of her unhappiness. I've been dealing with this over 10 years and sometimes it's a struggle just to stay sane myself and to keep in the game. I hate to see my wife unhappy or angry and like most guys, my gut response is to want to fix everything. I can't fix this. I made a promise and I have to cling to that because very honestly, she's normally unpleasant to be around, typically switching between extreme indifference or extreme rudeness and hostility. There are a few very nice moments. If I had it to do over, I wouldn't have knowingly married someone with Bipolar and severe depression. I wouldn't recommend anyone do so. I did and I can handle it. It aint fun, though.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

County said:


> p.s. for both of them, they saw a string of psychiatrists and psychologists over many years before they each ended up with one who referred them on to a neurologist.


A nuro-psychologist can really help here when it comes to sorting out brain damage and other stuff.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

I am so sorry you have to deal with this. How is your child handling this? My STBX suffers from depression with paranoid traits and is on meds and counseling. I tried for years to support him, but his disease caused him to viciously strike out at anyone around, which meant me and the kids. I tried to protect the kids as long as possible and remind them that Dad has a disease that keeps him from thinking clearly and from making the decisions you or I would make. It just became too much. He'd lash out and our innocent children and then run screaming into the closet and cry and ask why doesn't daddy love them. I couldn't fix him, but I had to protect my children.
There are some support groups for family members that are dealing with a loved one in depression/bi polar state. Are you and your child getting help?
You can support your wife and more power to you for that. But you must take care of you and your child. The stronger you are, the easier it will be to live with your wife while she's in this state. I wish you nothing but peace and happiness.


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

County said:


> Have you/the doctor considered whether a brain MRI would be useful? For two people I know, a friend's wife and a relative (male) of mine, their MRIs revealed brain damage. The friend's wife had similar symptoms to your wife; the male relative had depression too but it manifested differently and he had some additional diagnoses. They had different types of brain damage (including the causes) and in different areas of the brain. This hasn't led to any cures for either of them, but it was helpful in determining treatment/management strategies, and in just the relief for their spouses of having more of an explanation.


She is on Metformin too, but it does not seem to have much of an effect. The problem is that the evidence is inconclusive, that's one possible reason. Other could be family history of BPD, then there is the possibility of not grieving for her father's death, could be her childhood's instability...

Or all of them.


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> You didn't give her clinical depression and you aren't going to cure it unless you can figure out how to alter brain chemistry in another human being. My wife suffers from depression, bipolar, etc. It has gotten bad enough that she had to quit her teaching career. She's in a dark place most days and I get the brunt of her, hostile/suicidal/accusatory/apologetic/etc comments. Guess it just comes with the job. I make sure she eats, takes her meds, attends to personal hygiene, etc. I try to keep the triggers down. About the only thing I'm able to do that seems to help is getting her outdoors, away from the bed, the phone, the TV, the internet, etc. We go for walks with the dogs. She likes going for motorcycle rides. When she's in a funk even little surprises or changes throw her into an immediate spiral. I try to keep these down to a minimum and I just have to make most decisions. There's just so much you can do. Maybe the most important thing you can do is to just keep reminding yourself that she doesn't hate you, she's suffering from an awful disorder. If any other man on earth replaced you as her husband, she'd still be frequently unhappy, hateful, and suicidal with him because she has depression. She has doctors. You're just her husband. Do what you can to be supportive within reason but try not to let her depression define your life or who you are. If you don't have a thick skin, grow one. If her depression lasts long enough and you hear these ugly comments long enough, you might start believing that you really are a worthless piece of crap and the cause of her unhappiness. I've been dealing with this over 10 years and sometimes it's a struggle just to stay sane myself and to keep in the game. I hate to see my wife unhappy or angry and like most guys, my gut response is to want to fix everything. I can't fix this. I made a promise and I have to cling to that because very honestly, she's normally unpleasant to be around, typically switching between extreme indifference or extreme rudeness and hostility. There are a few very nice moments. If I had it to do over, I wouldn't have knowingly married someone with Bipolar and severe depression. I wouldn't recommend anyone do so. I did and I can handle it. It aint fun, though.


Thanks, I understand you fully. And I know all this. Yet, when the funk comes rolling around, it seems that I'm seeking for extra reassurance myself. Maybe it's my childhood too, or maybe it just that for so many years I got used to walking on eggshells that it had an effect on me...

I'm seeing a therapist, and I've taken steps to work on myself. 

And it does seem a bit harsh that I need to concentrate on myself, when my wife is the one who has the disease. 

Actually, come to think of it, what you said pretty much reflects what I've told others in the same situation before. Funny how still I doubt it when it comes to myself.


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

Pluto2 said:


> I am so sorry you have to deal with this. How is your child handling this? My STBX suffers from depression with paranoid traits and is on meds and counseling. I tried for years to support him, but his disease caused him to viciously strike out at anyone around, which meant me and the kids. I tried to protect the kids as long as possible and remind them that Dad has a disease that keeps him from thinking clearly and from making the decisions you or I would make. It just became too much. He'd lash out and our innocent children and then run screaming into the closet and cry and ask why doesn't daddy love them. I couldn't fix him, but I had to protect my children.
> There are some support groups for family members that are dealing with a loved one in depression/bi polar state. Are you and your child getting help?
> You can support your wife and more power to you for that. But you must take care of you and your child. The stronger you are, the easier it will be to live with your wife while she's in this state. I wish you nothing but peace and happiness.


I think he's starting to be in the age where it is starting to have more of an effect on him. And that worries me. Not to mention like yesterday she was home all day with our son. I think she probably slept most of the day, and so did he. So when the night time comes in, he's not tired at all. He stayed up past 11 pm. So now everybody's cranky. It's like a spiral.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

LH, the behaviors you describe exhibit traits of both BPD and bipolar disorder. I am not a psychologist but I did live with a BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of a bipolar foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a long series of psychologists for 15 years. My exW, for example, saw six different psychologists in weekly visits throughout that period -- at great expense to me (and to no avail). Based on those experiences, I have found many clear differences between the two disorders.

*One difference* is that the mood swings are on two very different spectra having different polar extremes. Whereas a bipolar sufferer swings between _mania_ and _depression_, a BPDer flips back and forth between _loving you_ and _hating you_. You describe the mania-depression swing when talking about "the energy, hypersexuality, staying up late. Then the crash." You are describing the love-hate swing, however, when talking about her "texting some really hurtful things to me" and the times she will "...be angry, snap at me and our child."

*A second difference* is seen in the frequency of mood changes. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a _year_. In contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in a _month_. The latter therefore is consistent with your description of numerous temper tantrums. Specifically, you state that "the episodes happen every couple of weeks." (Although hyper-rapid cycling is a possibility with bipolar, it is very rare and -- when it does occur -- usually precedes a transition to psychosis).

*A third difference* is seen in duration. Whereas bipolar moods typically last a week or two, BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours). Again, these short-duration rages seem consistent with with the tantrums and hissy fits you describe.

*A fourth difference* is seen in the speed with which the mood change develops. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build slowly over two weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action. Significantly, the behavior you describe is consistent with these event-triggered outbursts. 

This is evident in your remark that "There seem to be triggers, which I feel that are often somehow connected to me." Actually, they are because you are one of the few people who can trigger the anger. This triggering usually can be done only by posing a threat to a BPDer's two great fears: engulfment and abandonment. 

This is why casual friends, business associates, and complete strangers rarely trigger her anger. They pose no threat. Specifically, there is no close relationship that can be abandoned, and there is no intimacy to produce a suffocating feeling of engulfment. The result is that a high functioning BPDer -- as your W may be -- can be generous and caring all day long around those other folks -- but will go home at night to abuse the very people who love her.

*A fifth difference* is that, whereas bipolar can be treated very successfully in at least 80% of victims by swallowing a pill, BPD cannot be managed by medication because it arises from childhood damage to the emotional core -- not from a change in body chemistry. This may explain, then, why her doctor concluded that "taking more medicine is not going to fix the underlying problem."
*
A sixth difference* is that, whereas bipolar disorder can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. That difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly. This seems consistent with your description of very hateful, spiteful behavior.

*A seventh difference* is that, whereas a bipolar sufferer is not usually angry, a BPDer is filled with anger that has been carried inside since early childhood. You only have to say or do some minor thing to trigger a sudden release of that anger. If your W has strong BPD traits, she has carried enormous hurt and anger inside since childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to TRIGGER it -- or, as you state so clearly, "...there's that underlying current that's waiting to bubble up with any excuse."

*An eighth difference* is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if he or she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust for an extended period. Before they can trust others, they must first learn how to trust and love themselves. Indeed, BPDers have great difficulty trusting even their own therapists. 

It therefore is common for a BPDer to love her doctor for a while and then suddenly feel betrayed by him, causing her to drop out of treatment entirely or switch to another doctor. This may explain why you've observed that "she's really bad with follow-ups, and even got angry at the RE doctor."

*Finally, a ninth difference* is that skin cutting, picking and other self mutilation is strongly associated with BPDers (when they are in a low functioning state) but not with bipolar sufferers. This difference is significant because you say that "she has hurt herself before by way of picking skin and purging." 

Yet, despite these nine clear differences between the two disorders, many people confuse the two. One source of this confusion seems to be the fact that a substantial portion of BPD sufferers (about 25%) also have the bipolar disorder. I caution that, if your W exhibits a strong pattern of BPD traits, you should have been seeing red flags all through your marriage. Such traits are persistent and do not disappear for years at a time. 

If you would like to read more about BPD traits, LH, I suggest you check out my brief description of them in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that discussion rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to excellent online resources. Take care, LH.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Keeping in mind that pathological personality disorders are pathological and not merely unpleasant or difficult. Most people can be difficult w/o being pathologically mentally disturbed to the extent that a diagnosis of something as severe as borderline actually warrants. Pathological personality disorders are called that because they often result in extreme problems. Not simple cases of 'she's a be-otch' but criminal violent dangerous things.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Pathological personality disorders are called that because they often result in extreme problems. Not simple cases of 'she's a be-otch' but criminal violent dangerous things.


I disagree, RLD. The notion that someone cannot have a serious BPD problem unless it is so severe as to meet the diagnostic threshold -- or, as you say, to result in "criminal violent dangerous things" -- is a MYTH. This public misconception arises because the current diagnostic procedures for personality disorders (PDs) are intended to appease insurance companies -- not to help you or LH figure out what you are dealing with or avoid marrying a seriously disordered woman. 

Even when your spouse's BPD traits fall well below the diagnostic threshold, they can be strong enough to make you miserable and undermine your marriage. Hence, being told by a psychiatrist that your spouse "does not have BPD" does NOT mean you are safe. It does NOT mean she doesn't have a pattern of strong BPD traits.

This is so because, like all the other PDs, BPD is a "spectrum disorder." This means that, like selfishness and resentment, BPD traits are merely behavioral symptoms that everybody has to some degree. It therefore was ridiculous, in 1980, for the psychiatric community to adopt a dichotomous approach -- wherein a patient is deemed "to have" or "not have" BPD.

This "yes or no" approach makes perfect sense in every field of the medical sciences, where clients are found to either have a disease or not. This is why, in the medical sciences, "disorder" means "disease." In psychiatry, however, it does not mean that. There is NO KNOWN DISEASE that causes any of the ten PDs. Hence, in psychiatry, "disorder" simply means "group of dysfunctional symptoms typically occurring together" (technically, it is called a "syndrome").

Of course, the psychiatric community knew in 1980 that this dichotomous approach to diagnosis makes no sense at all for behavioral symptoms that vary in intensity from person to person. Specifically, they knew it was senseless to say a person meeting only 95% of the diagnostic criteria "has no disorder" and a person meeting 100% "has the disorder."

Doing so is as silly as diagnosing everyone under 6'4" as "short" and everyone under 300 pounds as "skinny." The psychiatric community adopted this silly approach only because the insurance companies -- who were long accustomed to "yes or no" diagnoses from the medical community -- insisted on a single, bright line being drawn between those clients they _would cover_ and those they _would not cover.
_
Over the past three decades, however, the psychiatric community (APA) quickly realized the insurance companies had betrayed them because, despite this act of appeasement, these companies still refused to cover BPD treatments. In addition, the APA members realized that, if they are ever to be taken seriously by the rest of the scientific community, they would have to abandon this absurd approach to identifying mental illness.

This is why, in the new diagnostic manual (DSM5) that will be released in May 2013, this dichotomous approach is being fully abandoned for all PDs. It is being replaced -- indeed, has already been replaced in the draft manual -- by a graduated approach which measures five levels of severity. This means that, by next year, the diagnosis of BPD will be extended to include those folks having moderate to strong traits, as well as those having severe traits.

I mention all this to explain why, for anyone looking for a mate or deciding whether to remain married, obtaining a diagnosis of "no BPD" is unlikely to be helpful. It does not mean you are safe. It may be as useless as telling a blind man "There is no _BUS_ coming" when he is deciding whether to step into a crosswalk. For this reason, it is important to learn to spot the red flags for BPD traits -- even when those traits fall well below the diagnostic level and don't result in "criminal violent dangerous things."


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Uptown said:


> I disagree, RLD. The notion that someone cannot have a serious BPD problem unless it is so severe as to meet the diagnostic threshold -- or, as you say, to result in "criminal violent dangerous things" -- is a MYTH. This public misconception arises because the current diagnostic procedures for personality disorders (PDs) are intended to appease insurance companies -- not to help you or LH figure out what you are dealing with or avoid marrying a seriously disordered woman.
> 
> Even when your spouse's BPD traits fall well below the diagnostic threshold, they can be strong enough to make you miserable and undermine your marriage. Hence, being told by a psychiatrist that your spouse "does not have BPD" does NOT mean you are safe. It does NOT mean she doesn't have a pattern of strong BPD traits.
> 
> ...


:scratchhead:

But just because someone exhibits many of the BPD/bpd "symptoms" doesn't necessarily mean they have those disorders. Many times there is a REASON for the behavior. Unfortunately, our society thrives on sticking a label on a disorder and saying "problem solved". And I have seen many general practitioners (and even licensed psychiatrists) fall into that with people. 

I really wish the OP's wife the best. However, sticking a label on the wife is not going to solve the problem at hand.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

827Aug said:


> But just because someone exhibits many of the BPD/bpd "symptoms" doesn't necessarily mean they have those disorders.


I agree with you, August. As I said above, everyone occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD symptoms to some degree. At low levels, these traits are actually beneficial because they arise from primitive ego defenses that are essential to our survival. These traits become a problem only when they are persistent and strong enough to seriously distort our perception of other peoples' intentions -- thereby undermining our ability to sustain close long-term relationships.

Significantly, many people have BPD traits at that damaging, dysfunctional level but -- under the current diagnostic procedures -- are misleadlngly declared to "have no BPD." As I explained above, this is why the existing diagnostic procedures for PDs are being gutted and entirely replaced next year by another methodology (one that uses a graduated approach instead of a dichotomous approach).

As I cautioned above, _even when BPD symptoms are at a strong level_, you are not necessarily seeing the disorder itself if those symptoms have not been persistent for many years (starting usually in adolesdcence). Strong BPD traits can be produced for a few months, for example, by a recent head injury, hormonal change, or certain drugs. This is why I cautioned LH above that _"if your W exhibits a strong pattern of BPD traits, you should have been seeing red flags all through your marriage. Such traits are persistent and do not disappear for years at a time."_


> Sticking a label on the wife is not going to solve the problem at hand.


True but, then, nobody on this thread has suggested that LH be content with knowing only the correct label. It is valuable only if he uses it as the key to unlocking a world of information on Google, which relies heavily on labels. In this age of ubiquitous search engines, one of the most valuable things you can give a confused man is _the correct label._


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

Uptown said:


> LH, the behaviors you describe exhibit traits of both BPD and bipolar disorder


Thanks for the exhaustive answer. We have talked about this before, and your writings do make sense.

If you don't mind me asking - before your ex was diagnosed, or even before she saw one therapist, how did you manage it yourself? Like I said, even now when I know she's struggling, I still doubt myself. 

Like you said later on, the label of the diagnosis probably makes little difference. And I talked about this with my therapist too. Was it you also that wrote that psychiatrists are reluctant to tell their patients that they suspect BPD, even if they do for various reasons. And of course, my wife's psychiatrist wouldn't tell me.

But going back to why I wrote in the first place... I'm torn because at the same time I know that she has a disease, so obviously I should support her. But on the other hand, often I feel that I can't support her, because her behavior overwhelms me as well. 

I do feel though that just seeing a therapist for about a year or so has made me more able to not take it personally, which is really important. I'm not 100% successful at it yet, like yesterday I did respond to her instigations when I shouldn't have. Then again, sometimes I wonder if she'd be more likely to not act out if she knows that I won't take it.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

losing_hope said:


> Before your ex was diagnosed, or even before she saw one therapist, how did you manage it yourself? ...I still doubt myself.


For the spouse, the most damaging and painful aspect of living with a BPDer is the utter confusion, making you feel like you may be going crazy -- and making you erroneously think that, if you can only figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can fix the marriage. 

Unlike you, I never had to experience that confusion and self doubt because, from the beginning, I knew my exW was unstable and that it was the result of her dad sexually molesting her for years in childhood. I also had the benefit of having taken care of my bipolar foster son for 12 years before my exW moved in with me.

This is not to say, however, that I did not make foolish mistakes. Because my foster son is one of those rare individuals whose bipolar does hyper-rapid cycling, I mistakenly thought my exW's event-triggered rages were evidence of bipolar disorder. I therefore mistakenly believed I would repeat my success of "saving" my foster son by doing the same for my exW. BIG MISTAKE!!!


> Was it you also that wrote that psychiatrists are reluctant to tell their patients that they suspect BPD, even if they do for various reasons. And of course, my wife's psychiatrist wouldn't tell me.


Yes, that was me (my 2/14/12 post). The primary reason I so strongly encourage the abused spouses to read about BPD traits -- and to see their OWN therapists -- is that they cannot rely on their spouses' therapists to candidly tell them what they are dealing with. Significantly, NONE of my exW six psychologists told me. Relying on your spouse's _therapist_ for advice during the marriage is as foolish as relying on her _attorney_ for advice during the divorce. That therapist is not your friend. He is ethically bound to protect his patient, not you.


> I know that she has a disease, so obviously I should support her.


No, BPD is NOT a disease. Indeed, none of the ten PDs has been shown to be caused by any disease. Rather, BPD is believed to be a distorted way of thinking that, when the traits are strong, leaves the person's emotional development stuck at the level of a four year old. But, like a four year old, a BPDer can learn how to mature emotionally if she has proper incentive to do so. 

This means it is important for a BPDer to be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her own dysfunctional behavior. Hence, as long as you continue sheltering her from those logical consequences (e.g., by walking on eggshells around her), you will keep harming her by destroying her best chance of having to confront her own issues and learn to manage them.


> Often I feel that I can't support her, because her behavior overwhelms me as well.


IME, I don't see how you can "support her" without simultaneously harming her. The problem is that her two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- lie at opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means that, as you back away from one fear (so as to avoid triggering it), you are necessarily drawing closer to the OTHER fear.


> I wonder if she'd be more likely to not act out if she knows that I won't take it.


As I said, you are harming her (i.e., enabling her) by "taking it." Instead of walking on eggshells, you should start behaving like your real self again. This means that, whenever she becomes verbally abusive, you should leave the room (i.e., allowing her to suffer the logical consequence of behaving like a spoiled child).

When you do that, one possible result is that she will choose to work hard in therapy and -- several years from now -- may be substantially more mature. Yet, because few high functioning BPDers have the self awareness and ego strength to be willing to do that, it is rare for a BPDer to make that choice and stick with it long enough to make a difference. 

Hence, the likely result of your no-walking-on-eggshells behavior is for her to walk out on you. She will likely leave to find a man who will willingly play the role of "The Perpetrator," thereby validating her false self image of always being "The Victim." My advice is that, regardless of what choice your W may make, you owe it to YOURSELF to adopt this approach. That is, you should decide that -- as you say -- you "won't take it."


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I tire of attempting to therapeutize everything. Being a bad mate isn't a disorder. And while they may have some significant problems I doubt most people's dysfunction rises to the level of the definition of a disorder. Doctors tend to use a spectrum approach now for two main reasons, 1) they don't have a lot of tools in the drawer to cope with something so they use what they have and make the diagnosis fit. And 2) I truly think there's a mercenary interest in doing this. 

In the 1950's everyone went to a psychiatrist whether they needed or not. In the 60's everyone explored with EST and counter culture and primal scream and suchlike. In the 70's, 80's etc. More of the same. I read a while back that some esteemed group determined 1 out of 88 American children is autistic... Well for one thing - No. For two, Hell No. But if you extend the definition of what you're talking about to just about anything then everyone falls somewhere in that spectrum. 

But it's not useful or pragmatic to do that. All that results in is branding people as damaged and defective where the only weapons in your arsenal to help them deal with that are built for people who are really ill. 

Your mate drinks and screams at you and spends money on hookers and fishing equipment. He's a *********. Maybe that should be a diagnosis - but he's still just a *********.


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

827Aug said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> But just because someone exhibits many of the BPD/bpd "symptoms" doesn't necessarily mean they have those disorders. Many times there is a REASON for the behavior. Unfortunately, our society thrives on sticking a label on a disorder and saying "problem solved". And I have seen many general practitioners (and even licensed psychiatrists) fall into that with people.
> 
> I really wish the OP's wife the best. However, sticking a label on the wife is not going to solve the problem at hand.



Just my humble opinion...

As you mentioned the word "REASON".... for the non-BPD spouse... this doesn't exist. Reason implies logic... and within the BPD's 'reality' its logical for them... but utter confusion for the nonBPD. This constant flow of BPD 'reality'... can easily overwhelm and put to question the non-BPD's own 'sanity'. For me it takes alot of mental energy to be so ever vigilant when this 'other reality' does not match up with the truth and identify it immediately to myself. I am now at the stage of recognizing when the BPD's 'reality' is based on extreme emotions and not coherent logical thought. And when the BPD is in that state, I know whatever I say in logical thought patterns will be deemed as a personal emotional attack... and no conflict resolution will be found. In my case, I get the passive aggressive routine, ususally with some hurtful words, actions or inactions and then the pouting. It is ever so difficult when this is someone you love. 

Good luck and many thanks to Uptown for all his insight and research.


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

RoseRed said:


> Just my humble opinion...
> 
> As you mentioned the word "REASON".... for the non-BPD spouse... this doesn't exist. Reason implies logic... and within the BPD's 'reality' its logical for them... but utter confusion for the nonBPD. This constant flow of BPD 'reality'... can easily overwhelm and put to question the non-BPD's own 'sanity'. For me it takes alot of mental energy to be so ever vigilant when this 'other reality' does not match up with the truth and identify it immediately to myself. I am now at the stage of recognizing when the BPD's 'reality' is based on extreme emotions and not coherent logical thought. And when the BPD is in that state, I know whatever I say in logical thought patterns will be deemed as a personal emotional attack... and no conflict resolution will be found. In my case, I get the passive aggressive routine, ususally with some hurtful words, actions or inactions and then the pouting. It is ever so difficult when this is someone you love.
> 
> Good luck and many thanks to Uptown for all his insight and research.


YES YES YES! Exactly. For me, it is very confusing when I try to apply logic to it. I always chalked it up just that I'm on a more logical end of the spectrum. There was a quote "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into." I think it applies perfectly.

And sometimes, if I'm tired or whatever, it takes all my energy not to get upset with the alternate "reality". Because my first instinct is to point out how it's wrong. But then that's viewed as condescending.


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

Uptown said:


> Rather, BPD is believed to be a distorted way of thinking that, when the traits are strong, leaves the person's emotional development stuck at the level of a four year old. But, like a four year old, a BPDer can learn how to mature emotionally if she has proper incentive to do so.


This is interesting. Because just last week, when I was caught in the middle of another episode, I thought to myself how she was acting like our son, who will be 3 years old soon. 

Thanks again for your input. Even if I don't always agree 100%, it makes a lot of sense, and most importantly I feel less that I'm the one who's going crazy.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

losing_hope said:


> Even if I don't always agree 100%, it makes a lot of sense, and most importantly I feel less that I'm the one who's going crazy.


LH, as I mentioned before, BPD is the ONLY mental disorder that is notorious for making the non-disordered spouses feel like they may be going crazy.


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

Here's another observation, or realization I just came to...

Whenever she's in one of those moods, and I feel she's poking me, I can't ever respond to those pokes. I have in the past, and what happens is that she takes my reactions to her poking, and uses them to justify her own anger. She will point out and say "See, you're just as bad!" or even "You're worse!"

This effect is kind of touched on in the "My list of hell" thread, but it hasn't been until this week, that it has been clear to me, and I've been able to put it into words myself.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

losing_hope said:


> What happens is that she takes my reactions to her poking, and uses them to justify her own anger.


Nice observation. Yes, that is very common: her starting a fight over nothing and, then when you object or protest, using those protests to "justify" her having started the fight. That is called "circular reasoning" and it makes no sense. 

Also very common is "kitchen sinking." It occurs when a BPDer starts a fight complaining about one thing and, as you are trying to explain it makes no sense, she quickly switches to another argument that she had previously "agreed" was settled months or years ago. Then, as soon as you address that, she pulls out another argument, and so on -- until she's mentioned everything, including the kitchen sink. This is done, of course, to deflect your attention away from arguments she is unable to support. And it is done to sustain the drama.


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

Uptown said:


> Also very common is "kitchen sinking." It occurs when a BPDer starts a fight complaining about one thing and, as you are trying to explain it makes no sense, she quickly switches to another argument that she had previously "agreed" was settled months or years ago. Then, as soon as you address that, she pulls out another argument, and so on -- until she's mentioned everything, including the kitchen sink. This is done, of course, to deflect your attention away from arguments she is unable to support. And it is done to sustain the drama.


Haha did you come up with that term yourself, Kitchen Sinking? It's true, you get to hear all infractions, real and imagined.

Here's something that happened today, I was trying to get my wife to go to yoga. For two weeks, she's been in really bad mood, and since she doesn't work on Thursdays, I've always thought that it's a good excuse for her to get out. And I take care of our son, so I get to have time with him too. Everybody wins.

But she didn't want any of it. She was saying that I was forcing her to go, and that it was all my idea anyway. I told her that she is an adult, so she does have a choice. But that choices have consequences.

Then came the best part: she said that I stole her Thursdays. Up until three months ago, I had come home from work around 4:20, straight after. So she could go to Weight Watchers and yoga. But then I started doing yoga twice a week, because I found it helping me. So now I come home at 5:30. So because of this, I stole her night out.

Oddly enough, I work over 50 hours a week, she works 30, so if I take an extra hour one day to do something for myself, I'm stealing it from her. Nevermind that she didn't want to go out anyway, and ended up staying in the bedroom all night, since I said I wasn't going to get into an argument.

At least I'm laughing about it. But what does bring me back to Earth is the thought "How much more do I have to take this?"


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## DeepPurple (May 22, 2012)

losing_hope said:


> My wife is depressed again. I should have seen this coming, the signs were there. First, the energy, hypersexuality, staying up late. Then the crash.
> 
> Today, she spent most of the day in bed, save for texting some really hurtful things to me, while I was in the middle of a very important project at work.


Has she been tested for bipolar disorder? What you described doesn't sound like depression and anxiety to me, sound more like bipolar or BPD.


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## southfljim (May 23, 2012)

I just have to say wow and thank you to the OP and Uptown, and the others who have provided educated advice and their experiences. I have let out a huge sigh of relief and exhaled greatly. What you all describe has been my wife for the 5 years we have been together. 

I have really got myself into a pickle. She is 6 years my senior, I married her young because I felt pressured by her to do so (I loved her and still do, but I was only 22 and wanted more time). At the time, my own self esteem issues and lack of experience led me to believe that this was my best option. She had what I would call a breakdown shortly after we met. She quit her job and we moved in with her parents. It took her a few weeks of great pain to come out of it, but she did come out. Ever since she has exhibited all traits that are described above as being BPD which have been hell to live with (though not like when she broke down). 

She is on medication, which numbs maybe half of her severe problems, but the other half still exist and the medication brings with it its own issues (no sex drive, weight gain, fatigue). She has been to therapists with no great results. She often switches doctors/therapists as mentioned in previous threads. 

To compound the issue, we made the mistake of conceiving a child who is now over a year old. I love my son dearly, more than anything. I want to give him a normal upbringing with two healthy parents, but her "BPD" is uncontrollable. She lashes out at me, acts like a brat, and breaks down into tears in front of him. I fear for how this affects him already, much less over the next few years when he can understand more. As the thread mentions I have probably now enabled this by participating in her ridiculous spats and walking on eggshells constantly. She has now become very dependent on me, and is extremely clingy. She becomes constantly paranoid that im going to 'leave her' and requires reassurance from me that I'm not thinking about it. 

I am going to try the tactic of walking out and removing myself when she becomes unreasonable. I have attempted this before but she always manages to suck me back in with some other guilt-trip strategy. 

Wish me luck, and thanks again. I'll be checking back. It just helps knowing that others have such similar experiences. 

Jim


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

southfljim said:


> What you all describe has been my wife for the 5 years we have been together.... I love my son dearly, more than anything.


Jim, I am glad to hear you found the BPD information helpful. I strongly encourage you to start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com. It is the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is fully dedicated to the spouses and family members of BPDers. 

Of the 8 message boards at that site, the most useful -- for your situation -- likely will be the "Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD." You may also get some great tips and advice in the "Staying" and "Leaving" message boards. 

And, while you are there, please take advantage of the professionally written articles on the Resources page (my favorite is Article 9). Finally, if you want a good book, I suggest _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ and _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me! _Take care, Jim.


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## southfljim (May 23, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Jim, I am glad to hear you found the BPD information helpful. I strongly encourage you to start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com.


I will most definitely do that, Uptown. I realize I got your name wrong in my post and fixed it. 

Thank you thank you thank you.


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