# Wife Cannot Forgive



## jhult

My wife and I are having some issues and it all stems from a few fights we have had over our 9 year marriage. Our most recent fight was two months ago, and we have not had any sexual relations or real physical touch since a few days after.
I never knew that she was unhappy in our marriage because we have always had a very loving, very passionate relationship. No fidelity problems with either one of us and we alway said that we could work anything out. Now we are being tested. 
 Two years ago on New Year's Eve we went out drinking with some friends. I was unemployed at the time, for the first time in my adult life, and was already feeling like less of a man because of it. My wife gets flirty when she drinks and was flirting with my friend. While they were in line at the bar, he apparently slid his hand down the back of her jeans....not too far though. I could tell something was up, but she would not talk about it. This is a pattern with my wife. She will hide stuff from me until I find out and then I get very mad that she hid it from me. When I found out later that night, I was mad. She tried to keep me from going in our house to get something. I grabbed her my her sweatshirt and pulled her out of the way. I never hit her and never would. But now, after our most recent fight, she brought this back up as the culprit to our issues. She cannot forgive me that I used my power to move her out of the way. Any fights that we have ever had were alcohol induced on both parts, but we don't drink often. Again, there are no fidelity issues, though I have forgiven her for so much worse than what I am guilty of......and her response is that I must be a better person then, since I can forgive. 
Ladies, I am not looking for an excuse, because there are no excuses. I have told her that I am ashamed of what happened that night, but that there were many issues going on at the same time. What I am looking for is any advice you can give me about dealing with this. We have been to two MC sessions that were not very productive. Neither of us liked the guy. We have a session tomorrow with a brilliant woman that I have met with for solo sessions.


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## TotoWeRNotInKansasAnymore

jhult said:


> She tried to keep me from going in our house to get something.


Maybe it was the item in which you intended to retrieve from inside the house which your wife feared the most.



jhult said:


> Any fights that we have ever had were alcohol induced on both parts, but we don't drink often.


If conflict tends to happen each time the two of you drink then eliminating alcohol consumption by both of you would be a wise choice.



jhult said:


> I have told her that I am ashamed of what happened that night, but that there were many issues going on at the same time.


When individuals are unhappy, their behavior can be very undesirable. If it was truly an isolated incident and you are aware of how inappropriate your behavior was, then hopefully your wife can realize that. She will have to trust that you will not allow yourself to behave in such a way again.


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## jhult

I dont even remember what the item was....it was like a jacket or something....I cant remember. She has had some depression issues that she has never dealt with and I think she is looking back at that night and actually making it worse in her eyes.


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## Tall Average Guy

jhult said:


> My wife and I are having some issues and it all stems from a few fights we have had over our 9 year marriage. Our most recent fight was two months ago, and we have not had any sexual relations or real physical touch since a few days after.
> I never knew that she was unhappy in our marriage because we have always had a very loving, very passionate relationship. No fidelity problems with either one of us and we alway said that we could work anything out. Now we are being tested.
> Two years ago on New Year's Eve we went out drinking with some friends. I was unemployed at the time, for the first time in my adult life, and was already feeling like less of a man because of it. My wife gets flirty when she drinks and was flirting with my friend. While they were in line at the bar, he apparently slid his hand down the back of her jeans....not too far though. I could tell something was up, but she would not talk about it. This is a pattern with my wife. She will hide stuff from me until I find out and then I get very mad that she hid it from me. When I found out later that night, I was mad. She tried to keep me from going in our house to get something. I grabbed her my her sweatshirt and pulled her out of the way. I never hit her and never would. But now, after our most recent fight, she brought this back up as the culprit to our issues. She cannot forgive me that I used my power to move her out of the way. Any fights that we have ever had were alcohol induced on both parts, but we don't drink often. Again, there are no fidelity issues, though I have forgiven her for so much worse than what I am guilty of......and her response is that I must be a better person then, since I can forgive.
> Ladies, I am not looking for an excuse, because there are no excuses. I have told her that I am ashamed of what happened that night, but that there were many issues going on at the same time. What I am looking for is any advice you can give me about dealing with this. We have been to two MC sessions that were not very productive. Neither of us liked the guy. We have a session tomorrow with a brilliant woman that I have met with for solo sessions.


How did she react when your friend slid his hands down her pants? What did she say to you? Also, what are the "worse things" you have forgiven her for?


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## desert-rose

Maybe she was afraid and didn't trust what you were going to get and that fear has been magnified in her eyes? Or, maybe she felt that your timing in stepping away to get something felt to her like abandonment in a moment during which she needed you? Have you asked her about why it was such an issue for her? Does she have fears of abandonment or neglect or irrelevance? Is she afraid that she has absolutely no power over you at all to influence you being there for her when she needs you? I think you really need to get to the root of why she was upset that you used your power to move her out of the way and why she felt so betrayed that you didn't stay there when she needed you to, even though it was objectively not as big an issue as it could have been. She seems to employ a double standard for behavior between the two of you, since you say that you have forgiven her easily for far worse than what you have yourself done and I wonder if these behaviors are being used by her to push you away and test your loyalty because she is afraid that you will leave her? Of course, you won't know any of this until you can talk to her and she can employ some self-awareness about her own behaviors and patterns and motivations, but I'm just suggesting some ways you can ask and address the issue in the hopes that maybe you can get her to open up about this in counseling.


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## okeydokie

the friend sliding hand down wifes pants thing. what kind of a friend is that? why didnt she tell you immediately? would you have punched his lights out (i would have) if you knew? was she protecting him or you? that part of your story jumps out at me


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## TotoWeRNotInKansasAnymore

jhult said:


> I dont even remember what the item was....it was like a jacket or something....I cant remember.


Okay, that definitely clarifies things a little more. I was trying to imagine myself and the ex in the same situation and what type of item I may have needed to prevent him from retrieving inside our home if he had just found out some guy tried to slide his hand down the back of my pants. Trust me, a jacket would not have been the item he would have been determined to get.

That being stated, maybe your wife trying to stop you would be a little less unwarranted.


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## jhult

I do not know how she reacteed because they were across the room when it happened. The guy is my best friend, and if I would have known at the time, I would have addressed it, but not have been upset. We were all drinking and having fun at the time. But its the hiding aspect of it that drives me nuts.
A few years ago, my wife hid the fact that we were having financial problems from me. I found out when I was away on business, at around midnight after my plane landed and my credit card declined when I was trying to rent a car. By this time, our issues were too far gone and we had to file Chpt 13. I tried to get us back on top, but it was too far. If she would have come to me, I could have resolved everything. She thought I was going to divorce her then, but I said that she was my wife and that forgive her. But that we need to get past this hiding stuff crap. So, when it came back up that she was hiding something, it set me off.


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## Tall Average Guy

jhult said:


> I do not know how she reacteed because they were across the room when it happened. The guy is my best friend, and if I would have known at the time, I would have addressed it, but not have been upset. We were all drinking and having fun at the time. But its the hiding aspect of it that drives me nuts.
> A few years ago, my wife hid the fact that we were having financial problems from me. I found out when I was away on business, at around midnight after my plane landed and my credit card declined when I was trying to rent a car. By this time, our issues were too far gone and we had to file Chpt 13. I tried to get us back on top, but it was too far. If she would have come to me, I could have resolved everything. She thought I was going to divorce her then, but I said that she was my wife and that forgive her. But that we need to get past this hiding stuff crap. So, when it came back up that she was hiding something, it set me off.


Based on this, it seems to me she is not willing to own up to her mistakes, which include lieing and hiding things from you. Why do you want to stay with her? Not being snarky, but really want to know why, if she hides things from you and is not willing to forgive you over you going into your own home that she was preventing you from going into, why do you want to be around her? Assuming nothing changes, does the good outweight the bad?


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## AFEH

I think a wife’s resentment of him is one of the biggest fitness tests a husband will get. I didn’t do too well with it at all. Boundaries are the thing, you need personal boundaries to protect yourself from her resentment. Boundaries are your rules. For example if she comes out with resentment about something, simply say something like “Oh that was years ago, it doesn’t count”. Or “My goodness that was more than a week ago, you haven’t got it sorted so it doesn’t count”. What she will do is quickly learn that she cannot manipulate you with her resentment. And that’s because your rules neutralise the affect of them. Additionally you will feel stronger, better because your rules prevent her from getting inside and hurting you.

Perhaps the worse thing you can do is to tell her she needs to change, needs to learn about forgiveness or whatever. You will never change her that way. Neutralise her resentment with your rules and just maybe she’ll learn a better and more mature way of being. Take a look at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/14963-boundaries-men.html . Read the book Awareness (Anthony de Mello) so you can really see what’s going on.


And lastly take a look at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/35517-four-stages-competence.html. You are probably at the unconscious incompetent stage with Boundaries and Awareness. One of the things about these trying, testing times is that we get personal growth out of them if we use our time wisely.


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## AFEH

Tall Average Guy said:


> Based on this, it seems to me she is not willing to own up to her mistakes, which include lieing and hiding things from you. Why do you want to stay with her? Not being snarky, but really want to know why, if she hides things from you and is not willing to forgive you over you going into your own home that she was preventing you from going into, why do you want to be around her? Assuming nothing changes, does the good outweight the bad?


A lot of us don't realise that our wives resentment can be pure and utter manipulation. Designed to shift the focus from themselves, blame, confuse etc. Of course wives do have genuine resentment. But it is down to her to get it sorted and when she wants to her husband should help her. Until that time the resentment is best neutralised with rules/boundaries.


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## jhult

She says she realizes her mistakes, and that me forgiving her for those was HUGE. But that I must be a better person than her. So, she admits, but then turns it around on me. 
The reason I want to stay is because I chose to spend the rest of my life with her when I married her. We have always been committed to each other, until now. Though she has her problems, we all do, she is the most amazing woman I have ever met. My mom died of cancer this last February, and my wife made sure she was comfortable to the end. My wife is a nurse and she did alot for my mom. I know my mom would be crushed by what is happening now.


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## jhult

Ok ladies....need your help. My wife and I had counseling last night and I think it went pretty well. She liked the counselor alot and was more open than she has been. She originally said she is leaning towards leaving the marriage, but also admitted that she dopes not have any of the normal complaints women have about their husbands. She admitted that the forgiveness is the biggest thing causing her issues right now, and she doesnt want to end up someday being an abused wife....which would never happen in a million years because I am not a violent person...and never have been. 
She also found out that there have been some women at my work that have paid some attention to me.....compliments, and something about them liking the way my pants fit. This sent her into quite a jealous rage...asking all kinds of questions. We went and had dinner and talked more and she asked if I liked the attention. I confessed that I did because I was not getting any attention at home and it was flattering. I then told her how much I love her and what she means to me. When we got back home, she actually kissed me, albeit a small one, for the first time in two months.
She still said that she needs space....and before you go there....no there is not another man....I know for a fact. I told her she can have her space, but I need physical touch and attention. Thoughts? We still share a bed and will be spending Xmas together with the kids and both families.


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## Tall Average Guy

jhult said:


> Ok ladies....need your help. My wife and I had counseling last night and I think it went pretty well. She liked the counselor alot and was more open than she has been. She originally said she is leaning towards leaving the marriage, but also admitted that she dopes not have any of the normal complaints women have about their husbands. She admitted that the forgiveness is the biggest thing causing her issues right now, and she doesnt want to end up someday being an abused wife....which would never happen in a million years because I am not a violent person...and never have been.
> She also found out that there have been some women at my work that have paid some attention to me.....compliments, and something about them liking the way my pants fit. This sent her into quite a jealous rage...asking all kinds of questions. We went and had dinner and talked more and she asked if I liked the attention. I confessed that I did because I was not getting any attention at home and it was flattering. I then told her how much I love her and what she means to me. When we got back home, she actually kissed me, albeit a small one, for the first time in two months.
> She still said that she needs space....and before you go there....no there is not another man....I know for a fact. I told her she can have her space, but I need physical touch and attention. Thoughts? We still share a bed and will be spending Xmas together with the kids and both families.


How can you be sure there is no other man?

Why would she become an abused wife. What was it again that you did?

What about the issues with her lyng and hiding things? Were they discussed in counseling?


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## This is me

We are seperated 7 weeks, going to MC and both like the MC. She has warmed a little more this past week and even offered to spend time together on Christmas Eve.

You story sounds alot like mine. Hard to figure them out. Many mixed signals and the reasons for ending the marriage do not seem to add up. I always find myself coming back to it being a mid-life thing and other job stresses that may have gotten her to this point.

In my case there are things I can improve on without a doubt, but feel that she is responsible to a degree and found me as the blame for her unhappiness.


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## jhult

I just know there is not another man. She is either at work....with all women....at home with the kids......with me somewhere.....or at the gym where there are no guys. Plus, she told me and confided to her mom and friends that there is not another guy. And he has some body issues with herself and would not allow anyone to see her that isnt me....at least at this point.
She cant forgive for when I grabbed her my the sweatshirt and moved her....did not hit her, throw her, or anything like that. She sees abuse all the time as she is a rape nurse....so she is aware at what abuse is and how it starts. The hiding stuff was addressed in counseling and we agreed that she has to be more open.


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## Tall Average Guy

jhult said:


> I just know there is not another man. She is either at work....with all women....at home with the kids......with me somewhere.....or at the gym where there are no guys. Plus, she told me and confided to her mom and friends that there is not another guy. And he has some body issues with herself and would not allow anyone to see her that isnt me....at least at this point.
> She cant forgive for when I grabbed her my the sweatshirt and moved her....did not hit her, throw her, or anything like that. She sees abuse all the time as she is a rape nurse....so she is aware at what abuse is and how it starts. The hiding stuff was addressed in counseling and we agreed that she has to be more open.


Based on your description of the incident here and earlier (which was that you moved her so that you could go into your house to get something, and that she was preventing you from going in), I am not sure there is anything you can do. What did the counselor say about your actions and her perception of them?


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## jhult

The counselor pretty much told her that she needs to forgive because there is no aspect of abuse, but that she does not need to forget what happened. My wife even stated that she does not feel like she has ever been abused.


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## Tall Average Guy

jhult said:


> The counselor pretty much told her that she needs to forgive because there is no aspect of abuse, but that she does not need to forget what happened. My wife even stated that she does not feel like she has ever been abused.


To me, this is a red flag that something else is going on. She has taken something that she admits is not abuse, and used it as a reason to not forgive you. I would dig harder. Check phone records, facebook, etc., to make sure there is not another person involved. Get her to a doctor to get tested. Keep counseling to dig deeper. 

But start preparing for the fact that there may be nothing you can do about it. If she can't forgive you, there is no marriage.


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## FirstYearDown

*Forgiveness Tale...*

I don't feel that you abused your wife. There was no intention to cause harm, only trying to remove her so that you could go into the house. She might be hypersensitive because of the work she does.

My husband laid his hands on me ONCE, twisted my arm behind my back and shoved me. I promptly called the police, who arrested him and kept us apart until his court date. Since it was a first attempt and I was willing to forgive my husband if he received counseling, he was mandated to attend group therapy for abusive men.

I warned my husband that this was his *one and only chance*. If he touched me again, there would be a divorce and jail time for him. My husband made a mistake when he was angry and I forgave him. The prosecutor told me that she was confident I would stay safe, since I appeared to be a take no sh!t type of woman.  Here we are, three years later and no more incidents. We take hour long breaks if an argument becomes too heated...calms everything down and reframes. 

I'm sure that at some point, this post will come back to bite me in the ass. Some members like to throw past issues in other's faces. It's okay, though. I just wanted to show that anything can be forgiven if the guilty party is willing to take responsibility and correct the problem. If I can forgive a man that I had to call the police for, your wife can get past you moving her out of the way.


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## jhult

Thank you for your response. I do think she is very sensitive about it. She has always been a strong woman, which I loved about her. However, she has become more unhappy and says she has lost herself over the years we have been together.

I think she feels she lost herself by being a mother and wife and not spending enough time doing things she likes. She said that she felt guilty if she would go out, and I know I am guilty of causing some of that guilt early on. My wife works nights and having young kids, I would always be responsible for bed time, bath time, etc...so I would give her some guilt at times that she needed to be home.

I know I should not have done so, but I never get any breaks away either. I am either at work, or home with the kids. It has gotten better and she has acknowledged this. I just know that I love my wife very much and would never hurt her. I just hope she can see that and will come around again. She said she didnt love me anymore, but the stuff she does and her jealousy that came up Tuesday night, says different. If she can get past the anger/resentment, I think she will find that love again.


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## 4waysplit

ok i may be completly out of the ball park with this but you listed a huge amount of things that you and your wife have to do - here is the thing about motherhood wonderful as it is it completly takes over your thoughts and with working well when she does her job she completly would have to focus on it with that kind of work . so where is the time for her to be her and you to be you. there doesnt really seem to be alot of it . i dont know if men struggle to swap between the roles in their lives but her roles between work and home seem very very different and for me i would struggle with that infact i do struggle to swap between my motherhood role and my student role. What about giving her a time and space to explore herself - perhaps she would like to do a class or have a designated get out the house and go do something for you time . encourage her to take a book or maagzine and grab a coffee for an hour or 2 by herself or send her to a movie. show her that you will find the time so she can have some time to do anything she wants - and point out that you both could take it in turn and make this down time equal and even .


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## jhult

She started working out again a few months ago. She attends an exercise class on Monday evenings, wednesday evenings and Saturday mornings. This has helped her feel a little better about herself. I tell her how great she looks and how proud of her I am. I know she needs some time to herself, and to find something else to do. She just started a new hobby, knitting, so hopefully this will give her something else to focus on. I have told her that I am here for her, but she also knows that I am not going to sit and wait forever. I will only take blame for what is my fault....the rest is up to her to work out.


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## I Know

jhult: the bankruptcy thing? holy sh*t!! The idea that she did not react to your friend and his hand down her pants is a big deal. But hiding bankruptcy?? This is such a serious serious red flag. This is intro to trust 101. 

She has got to be honest with you. The whole thing about grabbing her away from your friends hand is an attempt to deflect responsibility from her actions. You have to demand trust and accountability. 

Do not go drinking with her and your friends. It just brings on problems.

And ditch your "best" friend. Dude. My friend puts his hand down my wife's pants? I'd be having some choice words with him. And I certainly would not socialize with him with my wife. 

I think deep down you know that something does not smell right. trust your nose. Something is not right. You wife is not being forthright.


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## jhult

The BK thing was very huge. She told my mom the night I found out that she thought I would divorce her over that. But I realized that we both had to be at some fault to get to that point. However, I am normally good with money and had perfect credit up to that point. She took care of that for me....but I am rebuilding now and just bought a new car.
The friend thing was a fun night that got out of hand. Apparently she did react when it happened and was not happy about it. But, what set me off was the fact that I knew something had happened, but she would not tell me. She also seemed a little excited by my jealousy. I explained to her the other night that I have needs just like she does. She needs some space....while still sharing a bed. I need some attention. I don't know how long I can keep this up. She is still showing love, but testing me on so many levels. It kills me not getting any attention at home, when I know there are many women at the work place that who would kill to have a husband like me.
Someone asked why I still want to be with her. One of the many reasons is that we lost a baby at birth, before we had our two children. We still have that bond that I cant imagine sharing with another person.


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## deejov

I gotta ask, how did she "find out" that you were getting compliments from women at work about how your pants fit?
Was this something you told her?


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## jhult

My friend had told his wife that there were women at our work paying attention to me. Well, she told my wife about it last weekend, but my wife never said anything about it. Then in our MC session Tuesday, our counselor made a reference to me having a decision to make as well. That set off the jealousy and after our session my wife started grilling me about things. So, I explained everything to her as I have never hidden anything. I was not supposed to know about the conversation between the women at work about me, but one of the women that I am friends with told me about it.


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## deejov

so how did the counsellor know this? I'm assuming you may have been bragging to your friend about it, and he told his wife, and so on and so on? (Like the rumors in the first place which started the whole thing). And maybe bragged to the counsellor too?

It was "hidden" if she had to hear about from counsellor.

Not meant to be rude, but politely maybe pointing out that there seems to be gossip in your lives. You find out things from friends, a lot. On both sides. Drama. Is there anything you can do to address that?


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## jhult

I had met with the counselor by myself prior to our MC session. I had told her that I was receiving compliments at work. I have lost a ton of weight and look really good, and people are noticing. I never told the counselor anything more, other than I have never felt better about myself. My friend found out because we work in the same place, and he has heard the compliments and any other talk there may have been. There are some women in our office that like to talk. Imagine that. We normally do not have gossip in our lives. We have close friends, but normally do not discuss things like this with them. However, I have been leaning on some friends because of the current situation.


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## jhult

So Christmas is over. Now onto New Year's then my birthday in January and the 1st anniversary of my Mom's death in Feb. Should be an interesting couple of months. Christmas was pretty normal, but much less presents between wife and I. I did buy her a new diamond ring since she lost her wedding ring last summer, still claims it's in the house somewhere. We think the kids played with it. I told her the only string attached to the ring is that I asked her to lean into our marriage and not out. She is wearing it. I am hoping some things change in the next month. Would love my wife to be my birthday present.


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## aug

jhult said:


> So Christmas is over. Now onto New Year's then my birthday in January and the 1st anniversary of my Mom's death in Feb. Should be an interesting couple of months. Christmas was pretty normal, but much less presents between wife and I. *I did buy her a new diamond ring since she lost her wedding ring last summer, still claims it's in the house somewhere.* We think the kids played with it. I told her the only string attached to the ring is that I asked her to lean into our marriage and not out. She is wearing it. I am hoping some things change in the next month. Would love my wife to be my birthday present.


Have you consider that she may be accruing new debts and sold her ring to cover?


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## jhult

I did.....but not until all the recent stuff started. I never even knew she had any unhappiness in our marriage until we had a fight almost three months ago. I still think her unhappiness is caused by other things mostly, but she is taking it out on our marriage. 
But, once I looked back at the ring thing, I remembered when she lost it and know that she had no chance to go sell it during that time. Also, before our fight, we had been out looking at new rings and she was so excited, but cried because she wanted her ring and knew she could still find it.


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## This is me

jhult said:


> So Christmas is over. Now onto New Year's then my birthday in January and the 1st anniversary of my Mom's death in Feb. Should be an interesting couple of months. Christmas was pretty normal, but much less presents between wife and I. I did buy her a new diamond ring since she lost her wedding ring last summer, still claims it's in the house somewhere. We think the kids played with it. I told her the only string attached to the ring is that I asked her to lean into our marriage and not out. She is wearing it. I am hoping some things change in the next month. Would love my wife to be my birthday present.


What date or week is your January birthday? Mine is next week. At one time I would love for my wife to be my birthday present, but not sure I even want to think that right now. Can only handle so much rejection in a year.

Hope you get your gift!


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## jhult

My Bday is at the end of the month, so I am hoping some things change before then. Things at home are getting closer to normal. Wife's moods still seem to change quickly, but I just keep a smile on my face and love her. I have no idea how long it may take for the physical part to come back. But, I told wife last week that I have needs also. If the physical part....even just plain old attention doesnt come back soon....something is gonna give.
When she had the jealous rage last week, she kept saying "but we are still married"......really? I dont feel like I am still married right now.


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## stuckmick

Dude, sounds like we are going through the same thing....


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## Laurae1967

I would encourage you to do the MC each week. There are a lot of things going on in your marriage that need to be sorted out - trust issues on both your parts, your wife's inabiltiy to be direct with you, your sugar-coating your friend's sexual advances to your wife.


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## jhult

I believe we will be going to MC again soon. Things have been pretty good since our last session. My wife admits her mistakes, but does not seem to take ownership of her role in our fights we have had. Hopefully our MC will bring all this out. I am doing the little things everyday to show her how much I love her and hopefully she will regain the feelings for me in due time. As I have mentioned, she still shows love.....just not physical. We were intimate 3-4 times a week up until our fight in September. Then two times the following week and none since.
Also, I want her to do solo counseling so that her depression and modd swings can be addressed. I married a very happy, bubbly, woman that changed dramatically when we lost our daughter at birth 6 years ago. Even our two beautiful children only helped so much. She is a great mom, but she still blames herself for our daughter, and has never addressed the grief.


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## Laurae1967

That is so sad and tough. I am very sorry for your loss. Stick with the MC. It takes time for behaviors to change and for a deeper level of awareness of ones self and what drives us to emerge, but it's well worth the effort.


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## jhult

So last night was NYE and the wife worked like most years. When she was getting ready for work, I sent her a text asking to end 2011 with a nice kiss. She left for work and did not respond. I sent her a text later on asking why she didnt respond, because I never know if she gets the texts....she has had issues with that recently. Her response was that she wanted me to quit sending her uncomfortable text messages. She later apologized for that and said she just doesnt know how to respond when I send them to her. 
I feel like all the work I have been putting in to save our marriage took a huge step back. Up to that point, we had a great weekend as a family. She even gave me a couple small kisses.....of course I had to instigate. I am starting to feel like she just doesn't deserve me anymore.


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## Enchantment

Hi jhult ~

Maybe you've already addressed these questions. I'm kind of late coming to this thread.

What was the big fight about that you had in September?

Is your wife involved in any kind of EA/PA? Have you done the snooping around? Her actions just seem so common to those who are involved in some type of affair.

Hoping that your 2012 will be a happy new year for you, in one way or another.

Best wishes.


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## jhult

Our fight in September was because I was watching a football game at a friends house, kids were playing, wife was upstairs with others wives drinking. At halftime, I went upstairs to see her and give her a kiss.....and she was gone. Her and another took off driving to go get their friend....after they had been drinking. That made me pretty mad. 
Then later, they had not come back yet and my daughter was crying and saying she wanted mommy. I took a pic of her and sent to my wife. That pissed off my wife. So, after game, I was ready to go....pretty mad and kids were crying and I told my wife we were leaving. That embarrassed her and we got into a verbal spat on the way home....first time ever in front of the kids. 
She left that night with my daughter....for about an hour. Came back and that is when she first told me that she didn't think she loved me romantically anymore. There have been no affairs. We just never made time for ourselves, and I think it has taken its toll after 11 years together.


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## jhult

Ok, Ladies....I need your input. Things have been going ok lately. We are getting along well, both having time to do the things we want to do and still have family time. However, we are not making time for a date night. We spend an hour or two together most nights after the kids go to bed, but that is about it.
I asked her out for a date earlier this week and she said "we'll see". She ended up getting sick so we didn't go out. I asked her out again for next week and she said it depended on what we were going to do. I told her I would tel her if she agreed to go. Now she felt pressured so I dropped it. 
Later, I told her that as long as we are still married, I expect sex and I expect kisses. It does not have to be alot, but something to make it feel like we are sill married. She said she feels like I am diminishing her feelings. I said I was not, but rather just telling her my feelings and that they do still matter. Her response was that she can't help the way she feels. I told her that she can, but she has to want to and that physical touch can help it. She said that she was still in our house for a reason, which is a good sign. But, she still says she needs space. I learned that she meant emotional space....not physical space. Please help me figure things out. Deep down, I think she still loves me, but is still mad and holding a grudge. I know that if another woman shows interest again, she will freak. I feel like I am in a very unfair spot.


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## Shaggy

jhult - I sorry, but have you really verified that she's not in at least an emotional affair? These actions and issues are way beyond what is reasonable from one fight in September. Way beyond.


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## jhult

I have not verified the emotional part, but I highly doubt it. I know there is not a physical affair. She says that the feelings started last year, but that she never said anything about it due to my mom being sick and my wife not wanting to hurt my feelings. But, our sex life never changed....3-4 times a week for 11 years until our fight in September. Then one time a week later and another physical encounter of another nature....and then nothing.


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## Shaggy

jhult said:


> I have not verified the emotional part, but I highly doubt it. I know there is not a physical affair. She says that the feelings started last year, but that she never said anything about it due to my mom being sick and my wife not wanting to hurt my feelings. But, our sex life never changed....3-4 times a week for 11 years until our fight in September. Then one time a week later and another physical encounter of another nature....and then nothing.


I've read your thread through, and honestly it reeks of her having somekind of outside affair.

Perhaps she was easing her guilt by keeping up sex etc with you at home, but after the fight in Sept she has rationalized cutting you off and is using the fight to justify it. But I see her using some outside person as her physical and emotional release.

People just don't switch like she did, and they don't carry a grudge like she has to that extreme.


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## Debbie Roxs

After reading the thread some things popped out at me. You said really I don't feel like I'm married. Marriage is not a feeling. Same for love it's not a feeling, rather it is a commitment to love no matter what (excluding abuse).
When you say As Long As We Are Still Married I Expect Sex And I Expect Kisses (Sorry I don't know how to make those quote boxes)
If my husband said that to me I would be devastated. As long as we are still married? What's up with that? Where is the commitment? Till death do us part? Are you planning on leaving?

I think she might be still grieving the loss of the baby. She can't bury her feelings, they will spill over somewhere else. She might be hurting very deeply, even something like post traumatic stress syndrome.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, it's just no one seems to be addressing this particular issue.


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## jhult

Thanks for your reply. I agree that I should stop saying "as long as we are still married". We are married and to me, divorce is not an option. People that I talk to agree that our marriage is pretty normal. I know I have been a great husband and father and I can live better knowing that.
I was talking with one of my female friends that is also friends with my wife. She thinks that it is a combination of a few things causing our issues, one of which being a hormonal imbalance. She needs a hysterectomy but should not have one because she cannot take hormone replacements due to a blood clot disorder, which caused our baby's death. So, I am fully committed to her and our marriage and will let her have her emotional space. When I start seeing definitive changes, then I am going to take her away for a weekend somewhere so we can focus on each other for a few days. Until then, I will keep plugging along.


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## jhult

Ok ladies....need some more interpretation. Things have been going pretty well. It all clicked for me two weeks ago when I realized that I HAVE been controlling/manipulating. If I didnt like what we were having for dinner, I would be unhappy. If she had to work all weekend long, I would give her a guilt trip. I would get mad if we were planning on having sex and she proceeded to put on her grubby jammies. I would complain about her driving, mostly kidding, but I am sure it bothered her.
I tried to have control over everything in my life to avoid heartache, and look at where it has gotten me. My mom was the exact same way before she died a year ago. But two weeks ago, I sat next to my wife and explained to her that I now "get it" and that I was sorry and would do my best to change and be a better husband/person. I told her that I love her and that I am there for her if/when she is ready. Since then, things have been much better. The coldness has subsided and we are talking more. I am not asking for kisses, reassurance, or anything. She still makes dinner almost every night, I do some nights. She is doing more around the house again. She stops and gets gas in my car if it needs it, brings me a soda on her way home from the gym, asked me what I wanted to do for my birthday on Thursday so she could call my family, and we celebrated my birthday with her family Sunday night. I am not getting my hopes up because I know patience is the key. But, I think it seems like she is slowly coming around, and just making sure that I am sticking with the changes I have made. Opinions?


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## Dexter Morgan

jhult said:


> Two years ago on New Year's Eve we went out drinking with some friends. I was unemployed at the time, for the first time in my adult life, and was already feeling like less of a man because of it. My wife gets flirty when she drinks and was flirting with my friend.


Flirts don't have a good track record of being faithful. Flirting is the signaling of attraction to the recipient. Do you think she flirts with guys she thinks are ugly? Of course not.




> While they were in line at the bar, he apparently slid his hand down the back of her jeans....not too far though.


His hand should have been nowhere near the inside of her clothes. There is no "not too far though". It was far enough.




> I could tell something was up, but she would not talk about it. This is a pattern with my wife. She will hide stuff from me until I find out and then I get very mad that she hid it from me. When I found out later that night, I was mad. She tried to keep me from going in our house to get something. I grabbed her my her sweatshirt and pulled her out of the way. I never hit her and never would.


If someone is physically trying to keep you from going where you are going, you are within your rights to move them out of the way. 




> But now, after our most recent fight, she brought this back up as the culprit to our issues. She cannot forgive me that I used my power to move her out of the way.


So basically she can physically try to stop you from going where you are going, but you cannot physically move her out of the way without striking her? Thats called a double standard and hypocritical.

And it doesn't give her the right to disrespect you by flirting with other men and letting them cross the line with her.




> Any fights that we have ever had were alcohol induced on both parts, but we don't drink often. Again, there are no fidelity issues, though I have forgiven her for so much worse than what I am guilty of......and her response is that I must be a better person then, since I can forgive.


Then tell her since she can't forgive you for physically moving her out of the way when she physically tries to stop you from going where you are going, then ask her if you should forgive her for her flirtatiousness and letting another man cross the line with her.




> Ladies, I am not looking for an excuse, because there are no excuses. I have told her that I am ashamed of what happened that night, but that there were many issues going on at the same time.


Ashamed of what? You did nothing wrong. She tried stopping you, all you did was move her out of the way. You already said you didn't hit her, so I'm assuming you didn't grab her and shake her violently while moving her? If you did, then yes, you should be ashamed. But I'm not getting that impression.




> What I am looking for is any advice you can give me about dealing with this. We have been to two MC sessions that were not very productive. Neither of us liked the guy. We have a session tomorrow with a brilliant woman that I have met with for solo sessions.


Make sure when telling your side of the story that you have never hit her and never will and that the reason you moved her is she physically tried to stop you from going in the house. And that she is disrespecting you by flirting with men and letting them test the waters with her.

And by your description of your wife, there may not be infidelity, that you know of, but I'd bet good money she would cheat if you were nowhere in sight.


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## DTO

jhult said:


> Ok ladies....need your help. My wife and I had counseling last night and I think it went pretty well. She liked the counselor alot and was more open than she has been. She originally said she is leaning towards leaving the marriage, but also admitted that she dopes not have any of the normal complaints women have about their husbands. She admitted that the forgiveness is the biggest thing causing her issues right now, and she doesnt want to end up someday being an abused wife....which would never happen in a million years because I am not a violent person...and never have been.
> She also found out that there have been some women at my work that have paid some attention to me.....compliments, and something about them liking the way my pants fit. This sent her into quite a jealous rage...asking all kinds of questions. We went and had dinner and talked more and she asked if I liked the attention. I confessed that I did because I was not getting any attention at home and it was flattering. I then told her how much I love her and what she means to me. When we got back home, she actually kissed me, albeit a small one, for the first time in two months.
> She still said that she needs space....and before you go there....no there is not another man....I know for a fact. I told her she can have her space, but I need physical touch and attention. Thoughts? We still share a bed and will be spending Xmas together with the kids and both families.


Sounds like she wants to run the show and keep her options open, or she wants to keep you off balance. She's leaning towards leaving the marriage (and likely making up lies about fearing abuse to justify it). But she gets very jealous and interrogates you about some women complimenting you. Does not add up.


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## jhult

So things have been going really well. We have been getting along great, spending great family time together, and having our alone time as well. Then, tonight she drops multiple bombs on me. She tells me she is moving out, she tells me she is moving out this week, and that she has not made our house payment in 4 months. I am in shock. We had a very long talk about her depression and trying to find happiness. I explained that she is doing what she has always done, run away from problems instead of trying to fix them. She cleared up everything with her family about me moving her out of the way. However, she refuses to explain anything about what she has done to me financially to her mom. Her mom gave her money for a deposit on a new place, and I feel like I should tell her mom what she is leaving me with. She should not be aiding this BS and I dont think she would if she knew the story. No, she is not having an affair.....so stop with that stuff. She has bad depression signs and I asked her to go see someone about it. She also says that she is not read for divorce, but that this is something she needs to do. I am devastated.


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## Dexter Morgan

jhult said:


> She tells me she is moving out, she tells me she is moving out this week, and that she has not made our house payment in 4 months.


Too bad for her if she thinks she gets to walk away from that.

Make sure your attorney knows this. She is liable for half the marital debt too. She doesn't get to leave and not owe half of what wasn't paid.




> We had a very long talk about her depression and trying to find happiness. I explained that she is doing what she has always done, run away from problems instead of trying to fix them.


There is nothing to fix with a "woman" like her.




> She cleared up everything with her family about me moving her out of the way. However, she refuses to explain anything about what she has done to me financially to her mom.


You document EVERYTHING, the debt she has with you, payments not made while you were living together, get a copy of balances in checking and savings as of the day she leaves. That way if she clears the accounts out, your lawyer will present that to the court and she will have to pay you half the balances.

Cancel credit cards now, but make sure if there are any significant balances, that you give your attorney a copy. Again, she is liable for half.




> Her mom gave her money for a deposit on a new place, and I feel like I should tell her mom what she is leaving me with. She should not be aiding this BS and I dont think she would if she knew the story.


Waste of time. She is going to support her daughter.




> No, she is not having an affair.....so stop with that stuff.


She isn't that you know of. At the very least she was disrespectful in her flirting. And you can bury your head in the sand if you want, but if the opportunity presented itself where she thought you wouldn't find out, a woman with her character WILL cheat.

But its really a moot point. You are going to be free from her.




> She has bad depression signs and I asked her to go see someone about it. She also says that she is not read for divorce, but that this is something she needs to do. I am devastated.


Unless you want to be played for a fool, you don't give her the option of whether she is ready for divorce or not. You server her papers.

She is wanting to get out of the marital responsibilities, all the while getting to live her single life. Sorry, it isn't going to work that way.

If you don't get a lawyer now and file, you WILL regret it.


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