# Trying to do the best I can...



## flummoxed (May 5, 2009)

Hi! This is my first post in this forum. Although I am not considering divorce myself, I think my wife may be, so this is the closest forum on the site. My situation is thus...

Married in 1994 while in the Navy. Made many personal sacrifices early in our marriage to get ahead in the Navy that unfortunately put some distance between my wife and I that I don't think we really ever recovered from. Sex life started off really good, then went steadily downhill, although we did have a son in 1995. As a relatively young guy, I knew something was wrong, but just wasn't smart enough to recognize the problem and make the right choices about getting help. Time goes by... I have an affair in 2000 more or less in response to feelings that I wasn't loved any more and the fact that by then, we were making love once or twice a year. Oh, would that I were older and wiser then... but my wife discovered my affair (they always do) and after a big fight and deciding that we both wanted to make our marriage work, I ended my affair right then and there on the phone with the woman I was having the affair with my wife standing right there. We have our second son in November 2001. 

Years go by, I retire from the Navy, our love life really doesn't get any better, and try as I might, I can't seem to make any headway in my relationship with my wife. When I try to get to the bottom of things that are bothering her, it's always about things I can't do anything about... like the past, the father that she never knew, etc. We got to couple therapy together, but that didn't work. What couple therapy boiled down to was a bunch of flaming hoops for me to jump through (which I happily did), but in the end, nothing I could do changed things. I don't think she could put the past (my mistakes) behind her/us and move on.

Well, after nearly 9 years of struggling to fix my marriage. I come to realize that my wife simply can't forgive. It's just not in her, I don't think. We had an argument. I said some ugly things out of frustration that I would give anything to take back now. Unfortunately, a bell can't be unrung, so here I am... persona non grata in my own home. When I asked her why we couldn't work things out, she brought up things I thought were long since resolved (like the affair... it was over 8 years ago!!!).

After the fight, I moped around... A LOT. I love my wife with all my heart. I don't want my marriage to end, I don't want my family broken up. I don't want my kids to go through that hell. I don't want what I've spent my entire adult life building torn down.

So, here I am in limbo. That fight was going on three weeks ago, and I feel there is this impenetrable wall between us. She's going away next weekend to spend some time with her old school friends to sort things out... away from the kids and me. I was frustrated with how things were before our fight, I failed to consider how bad things could get. If therapists and nearly 9 years of trying were unable to resolve the issues in our relationship, I don't see what hope we have left. But, I will give her some time to try to come to terms with her feelings. I love her enough to wait. In the mean time, I am carrying on the best I can. I'm trying to be positive, upbeat, and supportive. I'm also being really good with my kids (I always am). My thinking is that if all I do is mope around and act miserably, then what kind of man is that to come back to? Don't get me wrong, I'm not being chirpy and false... she'd see through that in a heartbeat and call me on it. I'm simply trying to carry on in a constructive way while she works out her feelings. I'll tell you, it's hard, because I'm denying myself as we go through this. It's tough carrying on around the kids while she ignores me, meals are especially trying... she largely pretends as though I don't exist. I'm terrified that the kids will pick up on this and become anxious, but so far they haven't.

I really don't even know what questions to ask... perhaps some of you will read my sad tale and give me some insight or have some questions. Hopefully, all will work out and we will come out stronger because of this, but honestly, I see no way forward that I can control. The ball is pretty much in her court.

I'm running out of ideas, airspeed, and patience.


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## Sensitive (Mar 29, 2009)

I think it is common for couples to be so focused on their careers or kids that they let their marriage suffer. I am trying to find some supportive words for you, but can't come up with any. Welcome to the site. Hope you will find some answers.


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## Country Girl (Apr 19, 2009)

Hi flummoxed!

Welcome to the forum. I believe many of us find this forum when we are at our lowest point. This is a nice place to seek advice (& comfort).

I believe your assessment is correct--things are getting to the breaking point. Communication is obviously not there. I would begin by finding a terrific individual counselor. And then perhaps invite your wife later. When my estranged husband and I went to a couple of joint marriage counseling sessions, it was horrible. That just fueled our quarreling! That's when I found an individual therapist and began working on the underlying issues--for my own sanity. Also, begin reading self-help books. As so many on this forum will attest, "The Five Love Languages", by Gary Chapman is a great place to start.

Best of luck to you and your family. Please keep us posted.


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## JDPreacher (Feb 27, 2009)

Here's an idea, don't scr*w around on your wife...once you do the TRUST is forever GONE. They can forgive...forgetting is something entirely different...you don't FORGET and you don't regain the TRUST that YOU violated by being stupid.

You reap what you sow...consider yourself lucky that this is all you have to face...you're an ass...deal with it...and do everything you can to put your wife back on the pedestal you kicked out from under her.

Blessed Be,
Preacher


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## flummoxed (May 5, 2009)

JDPreacher said:


> Here's an idea, don't scr*w around on your wife...once you do the TRUST is forever GONE. They can forgive...forgetting is something entirely different...you don't FORGET and you don't regain the TRUST that YOU violated by being stupid.
> 
> You reap what you sow...consider yourself lucky that this is all you have to face...you're an ass...deal with it...and do everything you can to put your wife back on the pedestal you kicked out from under her.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the blinding flash of the obvious. I'm sure that anyone who's ever walked in my shoes and has a shred of humanity would agree with what you said 100%, including me. Yes, I was stupid. Yes, I was an ass. And as you wisely point out, yes, I have to deal with it... which is what I'm trying to do, to the best of my ability. Only an idiot would expect their spouse to "forget"... but forgiveness is what not only allows us to move forward, it also helps with coping. Thus, going forward, I would argue that forgiveness (not forgetting) is an essential part of any relationship recovery. 

However, since I can't unwind that clock, I really need to focus on moving forward the best I can. I greatly appreciate the helpful comments I've received so far.

In the future, please try to be more constructive... I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish in this forum, but trying to start a flame war surely can't be a means to that end.


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## JDPreacher (Feb 27, 2009)

Not trying to start a flame war...just don't believe in skating around the issue...you messed up and you want it to all go away because it's been eight years...my answer to that is so?

You need to understand the severity of what you did by cheating on her...that took away a substantial part of her being, her soul and her heart...that's not something that just is soon forgotten or forgiven...

I've know people who have been married a lot longer than you and they survived an affair from early on in the marriage...and they have spent all those years atoning for their mistake...and they did so willingly because they recognized what happened.

There are people, such as myself, who's marriage didn't survive the affair(s)...and no, I wasn't the one cheating...so I can relate to how she feels...

An affair is so destructive that it effects future relationships, not only in an intimate aspect but also friendships because it creates trust issues.

Delve deeper into what the cause and effect an affair can have and try and see more of what you have done and what she is feeling.

Blessed Be,
Preacher


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## COFLgirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Flummoxed, you sound like a thoughtful, caring guy who truly loves his wife. It's too bad couples therapy didn't help you and your wife resolve your issues.

I wonder though...have you ever REALLY sat and down and talked to your wife about her feelings about your affair? Outside of therapy, just the two of you. It might be worth a shot...especially because so much time has passed. I think it is still hurting her to the point she can't get past it. 

It might take several attempts before your wife will really talk to you about it so don't give up if she rebuffs you or down plays it at first. 

Despite the counseling, the bigger issues were never addressed. You mentioned that you "had to jump through hoops" as part of therapy, what were those things? Not trying to pry, but I just wonder how helpful they were.

I agree that you need to dive deeper into what caused you to have an affair and what she was/is feeling. It obviously isn't finished yet and the hurt is still real.


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## hvbidder (May 6, 2009)

Flummoxed. First of all, the Preacher obviously has an axe to grind and I for one would rather him whine and mope somewhere else. 
From my experience with my wife (who sounds a lot like yours), time and space will do a lot for both of you. However, during the mean time I believe that your on track. You need to be as attractive to her as you can be. That means being happy, helpful, and someone that she desires. You need to make her want what you have. Go to Church. Focus on the kids... Be a Dad that she is proud of. Openly begin to rebuild yourself by working on the things that "turns her off". Maybe it's your tidyness. Maybe you spend too much time on the couch. Maybe you don't do enough around the house. Really, really focus on what you need to change.
And, here is an important part..... "let her decide when to come around. In time she will want to be apart of this". The happier you appear, (without her) the more she will want to be with you. 
Is all of this "acting"? Maybe it is to a degree. But if you love her and want her back, then you have to be someone that she desires. Give it six months. Then take it from there. 
Good luck.


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## flummoxed (May 5, 2009)

JDPreacher said:


> Not trying to start a flame war...just don't believe in skating around the issue...you messed up and you want it to all go away because it's been eight years...my answer to that is so?
> 
> You need to understand the severity of what you did by cheating on her...that took away a substantial part of her being, her soul and her heart...that's not something that just is soon forgotten or forgiven...
> 
> ...


Believe it or not, I appreciate your brutal honesty. You've been there and done that (been on the receiving end). Thank God I haven't, so your perspective is valuable to me. I don't want the fallout of my affair to "go away". I think to want that is unrealistic. What I do want to do is to make her believe that I truly want to atone and reach a point where I can begin rebuilding her faith in me. Your response tells me that doing so will be a very ambitious undertaking, but I want this more than anything else in the world, so I am willing to put everything I've got into this. As far as trust goes, you hit the nail on the head. Even after 8 years, I see that it's possible I have a long way to go. I have done some things to help me get there (stable job, no travel, you can set your watch by when I leave the house and when I come home, call her during the day, etc.), and at least now I do have a leg to stand on, but it has been a long road, and I still have a ways to go. I also agree strongly that, in small doses, I need to try to get her to relate some of her more painful feelings to me so that I can begin to address some of the more deeper issues that you alluded to. If I can get her to share some of those feelings, and show her that I'm doing my best to try to understand what she obviously is still going through, perhaps I will be better positioned to help us move forward. I sure hope so. Thank you very much for your time and your thoughtful comments.


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## flummoxed (May 5, 2009)

COFLgirl said:


> Flummoxed, you sound like a thoughtful, caring guy who truly loves his wife. It's too bad couples therapy didn't help you and your wife resolve your issues.
> 
> I wonder though...have you ever REALLY sat and down and talked to your wife about her feelings about your affair? Outside of therapy, just the two of you. It might be worth a shot...especially because so much time has passed. I think it is still hurting her to the point she can't get past it.
> 
> ...


As I said in my response to Preacher, getting her to talk about her feelings can be a challenge, because they're very intense for her (as I've recently discovered). I will, in small doses, try to get her to open up to me, little by little. Hopefully, that will be a step in the right direction.

The "flaming hoops" I mentioned earlier were suggested changes to my behavior that were suggested by my wife and the therapist. They were sort of like conditions that, if I met them, were supposed to correspond to positive changes in my wife's behavior. In the end, despite my efforts, my wife's attitudes and behaviors did not change. Clearly, sort of along the lines of what Preacher was saying, her feelings on this are deeply held and will take a much more concerted effort to get at the root of and begin to resolve.

From the comments I'm receiving on this forum, I think I'm beginning to get my head around the breadth and depth of what I'm up against. Thanks!


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## flummoxed (May 5, 2009)

hvbidder said:


> Flummoxed. First of all, the Preacher obviously has an axe to grind and I for one would rather him whine and mope somewhere else.
> From my experience with my wife (who sounds a lot like yours), time and space will do a lot for both of you. However, during the mean time I believe that your on track. You need to be as attractive to her as you can be. That means being happy, helpful, and someone that she desires. You need to make her want what you have. Go to Church. Focus on the kids... Be a Dad that she is proud of. Openly begin to rebuild yourself by working on the things that "turns her off". Maybe it's your tidyness. Maybe you spend too much time on the couch. Maybe you don't do enough around the house. Really, really focus on what you need to change.
> And, here is an important part..... "let her decide when to come around. In time she will want to be apart of this". The happier you appear, (without her) the more she will want to be with you.
> Is all of this "acting"? Maybe it is to a degree. But if you love her and want her back, then you have to be someone that she desires. Give it six months. Then take it from there.
> Good luck.


Thanks!


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

I've really got to give you credit where credit is due. You made mistakes in life and you have admitted to them. I'm somewhat surprised by JDPreacher's harshness towards you. There is so much in the Bible on the subject of forgiveness. As Christians we are taught to forgive. That doesn't mean we forget, but we forgive. Have you forgiven yourself for the affair? That is also required to alleviate guilt. As one poster suggested, church could be a good place for you and your family to begin forgiving and healing together.

My estranged husband cheated on me for at least 2 years. I grew more bitter with each passing day. That betrayal hurt so bad. He eventually moved out because things got so bad between us. He chose to do that rather than give up the mistresses and ask for my forgiveness. He said he had done nothing to apologize for! I would have given anything for him to have chosen your path.

May God bless you and your family.


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## flummoxed (May 5, 2009)

827Aug said:


> I've really got to give you credit where credit is due. You made mistakes in life and you have admitted to them. I'm somewhat surprised by JDPreacher's harshness towards you. There is so much in the Bible on the subject of forgiveness. As Christians we are taught to forgive. That doesn't mean we forget, but we forgive. Have you forgiven yourself for the affair? That is also required to alleviate guilt. As one poster suggested, church could be a good place for you and your family to begin forgiving and healing together.
> 
> My estranged husband cheated on me for at least 2 years. I grew more bitter with each passing day. That betrayal hurt so bad. He eventually moved out because things got so bad between us. He chose to do that rather than give up the mistresses and ask for my forgiveness. He said he had done nothing to apologize for! I would have given anything for him to have chosen your path.
> 
> May God bless you and your family.


Thank you very much for your words of encouragement! Our family does go to church, and we are heavily involved. I teach Sunday School (6-8 graders) and am on two committees. I also volunteer to do the IT support for the church. My wife is the church secretary and heads the education committee. I agree, I think there is much to learn about forgiveness, and it is one of the hardest things to do. I also think, given the situation, it can be a long and difficult journey. There's a reason they say that, "...to forgive is divine." I just hope I have the strength and the patience to stay the course.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

That's wonderful! That gives your family a good foundation in which to resolve the issues in your marriage. Have you and your wife discussed the problems with your minister? Since your family is so active in the church, I would think that might be productive.


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## flummoxed (May 5, 2009)

827Aug said:


> That's wonderful! That gives your family a good foundation in which to resolve the issues in your marriage. Have you and your wife discussed the problems with your minister? Since your family is so active in the church, I would think that might be productive.


Yikes! I don't think I could take something like this to my minister. We live in a small town and are way to close for something like this. Perhaps if we were members of a "mega-church" where we were just another face in the crowd, perhaps. That was a good thought though, but I don't think we could do that here.


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## flummoxed (May 5, 2009)

The difficult part, right now, is giving my wife the space she needs to work things out. 

We got into an ugly argument about 2 1/2 weeks ago. She didn't want to talk, but I did. My patience had simply run out. So, I pushed it. BIG MISTAKE!! Big lesson for me: When you think a situation is intolerable and you think you can't take it another minute, you can always make it WORSE. I should have listened to her and been more patient. Had I done that, I wouldn't be in the boat I'm in now.

Now, she is very cool towards me, and I don't blame her. Imagine having a room mate that doesn't particularly like you. It's kind of like that. She's going away next weekend to spend time with her high school friends and think things over. She said she needs some time away. I'm happy to give it to her and hope she wants to work things out when she comes home.

It's the waiting for her to be ready to talk, and the uncertainty of what her decision will be, that makes this time difficult (tortuous) for me. Reduced to being my wife's "room mate" is almost unbearable. Putting on the brave face every day for the kids and our friends is really tough. Although I can't imagine her wanting to break our home (devastating costs in every dimension... not only for us, but the kids as well).

On the positive side, during our argument, she did say that she doesn't intend to live her life with her feelings bottled up any more, as she has for the past 8 years. Amen to that, whatever she decides. I took her to wife because I love her and want to make her happy. That things haven't worked out that way (for now), doesn't mean I don't love her any less.

Over time, I've tried to prepare myself for her decision. If she wants to be my wife, then great. That's the best outcome for us all, I believe. I'm prepared to move heaven and earth to redeem myself if that's what it takes to make things good between us again. If she decides to end our marriage, then I'm prepared to be generous in order to keep things as positive between us as possible and to minimize the trauma to the kids (although I don't think for a second that they won't be hurt terribly).

My only hope is that hers is an "all or nothing" decision. I hope she's either "all in" or calls it quits. I leave it in her hands (because I really don't have a vote here, so she's led me to believe). A half-assed marriage is good for no one.

My hunch is that she will decide to work things out. There are many practical reasons for this that I'm sure you can intuit for yourselves. Yes, I made a terrible mistake 8 years ago, but I feel I have proven over the past 8 years that my mistake is not a pattern of behavior... it was a one-time error in judgement never to be repeated. I think, since my affair, I have proven myself a good husband, father, and provider. My prayer is that we can find a way to work through this (I do expect it to be painful) and eventually move past it (no illusions of a "quick fix" or expectations that she will "forget it").

One of the things I'm trying to do in this forum us take responsibility for my part in this. I own the way in which I got here and blame no one else. However, I also think we all understand that it takes two (unless one person is mental in some way, and that's not the case here). But, there's nothing I can do about that but make choices for myself to try to influence her and hopefully lead toward reconciliation between us. If our marriage does fail, I have to be able to look myself in the mirror and know that I did my best and left no stone unturned. I want to believe that I did everything I could to save my marriage. Then, I think, I could be at peace with that outcome, as terrible as it may be.

But for now... I wait and try to be as supportive and patient as I possibly can be, and hope for the best


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## flummoxed (May 5, 2009)

Had a conversation with my wife tonight about where our relationship is heading. Long story short, she doesn't know. She says she needs time to think, and cannot give me a timeline as to when she wants to make a decision (due to the stakes being so great). 

Well, there's nothing like being in limbo. She says she needs time to be alone, so she's headed for a mini-high school reunion this weekend. She says she may need more time to herself to be herself.

In principle, I don't have a problem with this. The stakes are very high. What's hard for me is:

a) Giving her space means that we are civil to each other. That's it. I tell her I love her every day and try to be as nice as I possibly can (without being a nuisance). I get nothing in return. She is very perfunctory with me. She finds fault in everything I do and I get credit for nothing. This has been going on since our argument three weeks ago.

b) The open endedness of it all. I don't know how long I can endure this or when it will end. I do not know if she will chose reconciliation or separation/divorce. She says she cannot tell me what she wants to do at this point, and she needs time.

Well, all I know is I want to save my marriage. All I can think of to do is doing my best to keep things on an even keel at home (for the kids' sake) while my wife works this out. I just hope for all our sakes that I can hang on and that she wants to work things out.


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## dcrim (Oct 1, 2008)

My wife and I had the "roommates" discussion (after almost 20 years! Just before our 20th anniversary.). We separated and later divorced. I know that may not be much help...but sometimes, you have to cut and run. 

Dave


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## overitnolove (Dec 5, 2008)

I know with my husband, who hasn't cheated but has lost my trust through no following through and being weak and infuriating... the thing that drives me maaaaaaadddddddddd is when he is ENDLESSLY NICE when he knows there ar problems to be talked through.

I call it absolute bull**** and you are probablly perplexed , thinking what the hell do women want.

I'll tell you:

When you are in the 'prove yourself to me' stage after major break down, yes you need to be mister wonderful, but when wife treats you like crap you need to have some self respect and not take it (all the time). Take it a little, but also show her that you actualy have a back bone. No backbone= extreme turn off and raises questions as to why we are bothering.

Try to defend yourself a little and if she goes off, go for a walk, come back and try to talk.

See hw it goes,

S


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

flummoxed said:


> a) Giving her space means that we are civil to each other. That's it. I tell her I love her every day and try to be as nice as I possibly can (without being a nuisance). I get nothing in return. She is very perfunctory with me. She finds fault in everything I do and I get credit for nothing. This has been going on since our argument three weeks ago.


Correct, be civil and go about your business as normal. You are also correct also in not wanting to be a nuisance to her. It could drive her away. Don’t talk about the situation in the marriage unless she initiates. Even telling her you love her daily may make her uncomfortable.



flummoxed said:


> b) The open endedness of it all. I don't know how long I can endure this or when it will end. I do not know if she will chose reconciliation or separation/divorce. She says she cannot tell me what she wants to do at this point, and she needs time.


It took my wife several months to decide if she wanted to try and salvage the marriage. It has been a long journey for us but the marriage is much improved from where it was. To help ease the pain of living in limbo read Dobson’s Love Must Be Tough. It will help you both in giving her space as well as restore your feeling of control It worked wonders for me. Good luck.


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## flummoxed (May 5, 2009)

overitnolove said:


> I know with my husband, who hasn't cheated but has lost my trust through no following through and being weak and infuriating... the thing that drives me maaaaaaadddddddddd is when he is ENDLESSLY NICE when he knows there ar problems to be talked through.
> 
> I call it absolute bull**** and you are probablly perplexed , thinking what the hell do women want.
> 
> ...


I agree 100 percent. I have to maintain some sense of dignity. Well said. After all, respect has to go both ways. The trick, I think, will be finding the balance. If I can do that, I feel I will be able to maintain my self respect and make some progress at the same time.


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## flummoxed (May 5, 2009)

Amplexor said:


> Correct, be civil and go about your business as normal. You are also correct also in not wanting to be a nuisance to her. It could drive her away. Don’t talk about the situation in the marriage unless she initiates. Even telling her you love her daily may make her uncomfortable.
> 
> 
> 
> It took my wife several months to decide if she wanted to try and salvage the marriage. It has been a long journey for us but the marriage is much improved from where it was. To help ease the pain of living in limbo read Dobson’s Love Must Be Tough. It will help you both in giving her space as well as restore your feeling of control It worked wonders for me. Good luck.


Thanks so much for your suggestion. Intuitively, I agree with you. I have a lot of respect for Dr. Dobson, so checking out his book seems like a good idea. Perspective is what I really need, and I hope I can find it in that book. On to the library!!! Just reserved the book at my library, hopefully I will have it in a few days.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

Sounds to me like you're a "nice guy" and that isn't a compliment. I know because I am one as well but I'm working on overcoming it. You need to read this:

"Breaking Free From the Nice Guy Syndrome"

(It's not an affiliate link or anything like that and I'm not trying to make any money from it.)


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