# How he says, "I'm sorry."



## themrs

My husband rarely says how he feels. Instead, he does things that are supposed to demonstrate his feelings and I'm supposed to get the hint. It really drives me crazy, but I'm working on accepting that that is the way he is.

Anyway, I had a really hard time with it on Monday. For the last two months he has been unemployed. He has been on a few interviews and has a job lined up but it doesn't start for another month. Meanwhile, he is playing Mr. Mom (We have 4 children). He's been dropping off and picking up our 5 year old son from school, and taking care of our 3 year old DD and 7 month old twins during the day. For this, I am grateful. But he SUCKS at doing housework consistently. Almost every night I come home to a mess and I'm still expected to cook.

The cooking isn't a problem for me because I love to cook and plan meals. It's just the cleaning up after having to work all day is getting to me. I ignored it for a while, but after 4 days of dishes piling up and not getting done I had to do something. It's like he only does the dishes once a week or something. Last week I said, "Do you think you will get to these dishes today?" He looked at me as if I had just slapped him! It seems I can't express myself when it comes to chores.

So the next week I waited, and waited for days. I didn't say anything or passively express my frustration. Even though it was hard for me to cook with a dirty kitchen, I just washed the pots I needed and left the dishes there. I acted like I didn't see them. But after a week I couldn't take it anymore. I just broke down after work and did the dishes. The kitchen was so dirty, and I was cooking dinner at the same time, that I didn't get done until well after 10pm (it took me 3.5 hours). I was visibly annoyed. 

Anyway, he tried to make a joke out of me doing such extensive cleaning saying that I drank too much coffee at work and now I was burning off extra energy. I just looked at him.

Then he asked me if I wanted something from the store - a gingerale perhaps. He knows I love ginger ale. I said no. 

Then he said he would take the twins for the night so that I could get some rest. To this I said YES and THANKYOU!!! 

However, all I really wanted him to say was I'm sorry I didn't wash the dishes and thanks for taking care of that for me. Why can't he just say that?


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## sisters359

7 mo old twins, 2 other kids, a full time job, and the dishes aren't getting done? Time for paper plates--why fight this battle. Get all disposable tablewear and then only pots and pans are left to clean. 

He does not have time to do much in the way of dishes during the day, with all those little ones. You don't have energy in the evenings. So, eliminate the chore. Remind him to soak pots/pans if he uses them so cleaning for the next person is easier.


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## MarriedWifeInLove

Some people aren't built to say "I'm sorry."

In the 27 years my husband and I have been together I've only heard the words "I'm sorry" to me a total of twice (seriously).

My husband prefers to show he is sorry through his actions. 

Just like how your husband took the kids for the night - this was "his way" of saying he was sorry.

Sometimes the words "I'm sorry" are meaningless and empty - but him taking the twins - to me - that said it loud and clear.

Learn how "he" expresses to you he is sorry. Just because he doesn't say it and it's not the way you expect it - doesn't mean that he isn't and isn't trying to show you, in his own way.


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## themrs

sisters359 said:


> 7 mo old twins, 2 other kids, a full time job, and the dishes aren't getting done? Time for paper plates--why fight this battle. Get all disposable tablewear and then only pots and pans are left to clean.
> 
> He does not have time to do much in the way of dishes during the day, with all those little ones. You don't have energy in the evenings. So, eliminate the chore. Remind him to soak pots/pans if he uses them so cleaning for the next person is easier.


Then I'll be the one stuck taking out all the extra trash the paper plates make. LOL! Seriously, I was at home with the kids during maternity leave for five months and I still got it done. I know he's not me, but goodness! 

He has time during the day. He just doesn't do it. I'm not saying he's not tired, but suck it up! Things need to get done!

I think I'll just have to buy paper plates.


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## themrs

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Some people aren't built to say "I'm sorry."
> 
> In the 27 years my husband and I have been together I've only heard the words "I'm sorry" to me a total of twice (seriously).
> 
> My husband prefers to show he is sorry through his actions.
> 
> Just like how your husband took the kids for the night - this was "his way" of saying he was sorry.
> 
> Sometimes the words "I'm sorry" are meaningless and empty - but him taking the twins - to me - that said it loud and clear.
> 
> Learn how "he" expresses to you he is sorry. Just because he doesn't say it and it's not the way you expect it - doesn't mean that he isn't and isn't trying to show you, in his own way.


I know how he expresses his remorse. He makes it clear. He tried three times to "say" I'm sorry to me. First, by making a joke. I didn't laugh. Second, by asking to buy me something. I said no. Third, by taking the twins. To this I said yes. 

You see, he kept upping the anty on things he was doing until I accepted one. His asking to do things for me is his way of saying sorry and my accepting his offer is equal to accepting his apology in his mind. 

He could skip all of that and just say the words and promise to do better. Just as the words become empty after a while, so do his gestures because he mainly only does things to please me when he's feeling sorry.

His taking the twins for ONE night, doesn't get the dishes done.


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## AvaTara539

themrs said:


> I know how he expresses his remorse.
> He could skip all of that and just say the words and promise to do better. Just as the words become empty after a while, so do his gestures because he mainly only does things to please me when he's feeling sorry.
> 
> His taking the twins for ONE night, doesn't get the dishes done.




No, taking the twins for one night is a lot harder than you doing a load of dishes at the end of the day! It seems like you are very ungrateful for what he does for your household (whatever you do during the day for work I guarantee it is not as difficult as staying at home with the kids! And a lot of men are unemployed in this economy and refusing to take care of their own children on top of that, you should thank your lucky stars your husband has integrity). You also need to understand that peoples love languages are different. A lot of men express affection through *doing* things for their wives, if you can't accept that and it is not good enough for you, perhaps you are not so deserving yourself. My husband speaks a very different love language than I do and I have worked on speaking his and he has worked on speaking mine. That's one of the things you sign up for when you get married. Your H can learn to SAY more often and you can learn to accept when he DOES to convey meaning instead of saying it. But from what I've read here in your own words, you are derisive to him when he attempts to apologize in his language, not constructive, you speak down in a condescending manner of the things he does for your home, passive aggressive in communication ("are these dishes going to get done tonight?" instead of just asking him to do them politely)... it's no wonder to me if he does not want to verbally communicate with you much and instead prefers to try to do things to win your favor. If my wife looked down on me the way you apparently look down on your husband, I wouldn't want to talk to her much either.


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## themrs

AvaTara539 said:


> No, taking the twins for one night is a lot harder than you doing a load of dishes at the end of the day! It seems like you are very ungrateful for what he does for your household (whatever you do during the day for work I guarantee it is not as difficult as staying at home with the kids! And a lot of men are unemployed in this economy and refusing to take care of their own children on top of that, you should thank your lucky stars your husband has integrity). You also need to understand that peoples love languages are different. A lot of men express affection through *doing* things for their wives, if you can't accept that and it is not good enough for you, perhaps you are not so deserving yourself. My husband speaks a very different love language than I do and I have worked on speaking his and he has worked on speaking mine. That's one of the things you sign up for when you get married. Your H can learn to SAY more often and you can learn to accept when he DOES to convey meaning instead of saying it. But from what I've read here in your own words, you are derisive to him when he attempts to apologize in his language, not constructive, you speak down in a condescending manner of the things he does for your home, passive aggressive in communication ("are these dishes going to get done tonight?" instead of just asking him to do them politely)... it's no wonder to me if he does not want to verbally communicate with you much and instead prefers to try to do things to win your favor. If my wife looked down on me the way you apparently look down on your husband, I wouldn't want to talk to her much either.



HA! If taking the twins is so much harder than doing the dishes then JUST DO THE FREAKING DISHES!!!! He doesn't get a medal for taking care of his own damn kids. I'm sorry, but he doesn't. While I was on maternity leave I got up with them every night and never expected him to help. He does it one night and he's father of the year? Give me a break.

I don't look down on him. I did ask him politely. I didn't say, "Are these dishes going to get done tonight?" I said, "Do you think you will get to these dishes today?" There is a difference. He could have said yes or no, but just leaving them there for days on end is unaccepatble. Making me feel like I can't ask for help with chores is not acceptable.

The point is, why can't he just say he is sorry? Why is that so hard to do when he KNOWS he is wrong? I hate this little stupid game. Just say how you are feeling. I don't NEED him to do all of those things he wants to do for me. I NEED him to express to me verbally how he feels and do better in the future.


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## AvaTara539

After a day of taking care of twins one can be too tired to do dishes  And nobody said a medal, but recognition and appreciation is not the same as ass kissing (I don't care who the stay at home parent is, the other parent should express appreciation for that from time to time because it's the hardest job there is). I think you absolutely should ask for help with chores, but you're definitely being condescending in the way you're doing it. "Do you think you will get to these dishes today?" is rude. I think you should definitely see an MC. Because your behavior strikes me as even worse than his and you think you are completely justified in speaking about your H this way after what he does do for the household. And people have different standards for cleanliness. Tell me did you ask him if he'd do a chore chart with you and have you worked on learning how to speak to him in HIS love language if you are so demanding that he speaks in yours?


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## AvaTara539

By your own words "He's been dropping off and picking up our 5 year old son from school, and taking care of our 3 year old DD and 7 month old twins during the day.". so he's taking care of THREE kids during the day, two of which are infants and one of which is a developmentally disabled toddler? And you expect the house clean when you get home from work? WOOOOOW. That's almost unbelievably absurd.


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## nader

fter watching 3 kids all day while you were at work, he offers to take care of the twins so YOU can rest! switch to paper plates and give him an appreciation bj for good measure, just to show your support. Any kind of unemployment stint is incredibly depressing, and it is easy to become discouraged and depressed. sounds like he is trying really hard and need encouragement from you.

I was unemployed from nov - feb. Just married and with a wife due in February. It was a really dark time for me and my wife's attitude towards me made a HUGE difference in my morale and general well-being.


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## themrs

AvaTara539 said:


> After a day of taking care of twins one can be too tired to do dishes  And nobody said a medal, but recognition and appreciation is not the same as ass kissing (I don't care who the stay at home parent is, the other parent should express appreciation for that from time to time because it's the hardest job there is). I think you absolutely should ask for help with chores, but you're definitely being condescending in the way you're doing it. "Do you think you will get to these dishes today?" is rude. I think you should definitely see an MC. Because your behavior strikes me as even worse than his and you think you are completely justified in speaking about your H this way after what he does do for the household. And people have different standards for cleanliness. Tell me did you ask him if he'd do a chore chart with you and have you worked on learning how to speak to him in HIS love language if you are so demanding that he speaks in yours?


Excuse me for being blunt. I'm generally not this easily set off, but I am venting here. I don't see how "Do you think you will get to these dishes today?" is rude, but I'll take your word for it.

The story is deeper than these few incidents, but of course that goes without saying. I've tried over the years to get him on board with the distribution of the chores. No go. He doesn't want to be committed to doing chores and he has said as much. If we put a chore chart in place, then it's written in stone and he doesn't want to feel the pressure to get things done. He'd rather just do them at his own pace, which loosely translates to whenever he feels like it. A good home doesn't work that way. Everyone can't just do things because they feel like it. 

In addition to this, I've come home early from work on several occassions when the dishes were not washed to find him playing video games while the twins crawled around pulling things down from the bookshelves and whatnot. Of course not wanting to be the demanding wife, I didn't say anything about him finding time to relax with his hobby when he doesn't have time to do chores. OH how tiresome watching the babies must be if he has time to play Mortal Kombat. 

As a matter of fact, the night I cleaned the kitchen he played video games the entire time. The reason why it took me so long to clean was because I had to frequently stop to pick up a crying baby or change a diaper because he was so engrossed in his game playing for hours.

So I do not understand how one has the time to play games in the middle of the day but not clean. If you can do one, you certainly can do the other.

The thing that really makes me angry is the fact that when I was home he used to ride me about getting things clean all the time! He came home from work, picked up the remote and that is all he was expected to do. He felt that he was making the money so I should be able to do the rest. No problem. But when the shoe is on the other foot, he doesn't give me the same consideration I gave him with regards to keeping the house clean. What of that? 

And all of this is a moot point because what I really want him to do is just SAY he is sorry and do better in the future. But I know him. He thinks he can replace not washing the dishes with taking care of the twins one night. It's not as if he will just pick up and start washing the dishes now because he indicated he was sorry. He won't. He'll do the same thing he's been doing. His behavior won't change, so him taking the twins one night really means nothing besides I made him feel uncomfortable so he thought he needed to do something to alleviate his guilt.


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## themrs

AvaTara539 said:


> By your own words "He's been dropping off and picking up our 5 year old son from school, and taking care of our 3 year old DD and 7 month old twins during the day.". so he's taking care of THREE kids during the day, two of which are infants and one of which is a developmentally disabled toddler? And you expect the house clean when you get home from work? WOOOOOW. That's almost unbelievably absurd.


She's not developmentally disabled! LOL! I meant DD as Darling Daughter or Dear Daughter. LOL! 

I don't understand why it's absurd for me to expect dishes being washed when it wasn't absurd for me when I was in the same position as him. He expected that of me. I'm not even asking for the whole house, just the dishes.

But like I said, I guess we'll just buy paper plates or I will wash the dishes myself.


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## themrs

nader said:


> fter watching 3 kids all day while you were at work, he offers to take care of the twins so YOU can rest! switch to paper plates and give him an appreciation bj for good measure, just to show your support. Any kind of unemployment stint is incredibly depressing, and it is easy to become discouraged and depressed. sounds like he is trying really hard and need encouragement from you.
> 
> I was unemployed from nov - feb. Just married and with a wife due in February. It was a really dark time for me and my wife's attitude towards me made a HUGE difference in my morale and general well-being.


Wow. He's the father of the year and I just don't appreciate him. I can't take it. I really can't. 

I do not understand why I didn't get the same appreciation when I was at home? I honestly don't. I was expected by him to take care of the kids and keep a clean house and that's what I did. Now he stays home and he can't be bothered to wash dishes AND I'm supposed to give him a bj? 

Well, it is what it is. I'll buy paper plates. I'll give him a bj. I'll go to work and pay all the bills. Then I will get up and down all night with the twins before I have to get up and go to work in the morning all while he plays video games and watches Netflix. 

I'm just tired today and don't feel like doing any of it.


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## Mom6547

themrs said:


> However, all I really wanted him to say was I'm sorry I didn't wash the dishes and thanks for taking care of that for me. Why can't he just say that?


My guess is that he had NO IDEA you wanted / expected him to do the dishes. First you ignored it for days. While you may have been steaming, I would bet a dollar it just never occurred to him that his different standard for dish maintenance was a problem for you.

He probably knows you are tired. Thus the taking of the kids to relieve you. But I would bet my last dollar that he should be doing the dishes before you get home has not even occurred to him. He did not say sorry because he likely does not even know that you feel he should have done them.

Honey, I am tired when I get home from work. It is hard to get started on dinner when the dishes are dirty. It would be helpful if you could do the dishes as you go or during the day. Is that something you can do?

I feel (I am, It is hard)
It would be helpful - who does not love to be helpful?
Is that something you can do?


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## Mom6547

Oh and I know this is not the point, but get a dishwasher! They DO save marriages.


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## Mom6547

themrs said:


> Wow. He's the father of the year and I just don't appreciate him. I can't take it. I really can't.
> 
> I do not understand why I didn't get the same appreciation when I was at home? I honestly don't. I was expected by him to take care of the kids and keep a clean house and that's what I did. Now he stays home and he can't be bothered to wash dishes AND I'm supposed to give him a bj?
> 
> Well, it is what it is. I'll buy paper plates. I'll give him a bj. I'll go to work and pay all the bills.


Why? So you can build resentment until your marriage is over?



> Then I will get up and down all night with the twins before I have to get up and go to work in the morning all while he plays video games and watches Netflix.
> 
> I'm just tired today and don't feel like doing any of it.


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## AvaTara539

themrs said:


> She's not developmentally disabled! LOL! I meant DD as Darling Daughter or Dear Daughter. LOL!
> 
> I don't understand why it's absurd for me to expect dishes being washed when it wasn't absurd for me when I was in the same position as him. He expected that of me. I'm not even asking for the whole house, just the dishes.
> 
> But like I said, I guess we'll just buy paper plates or I will wash the dishes myself.


LOL well that makes some difference  my son has ADHD and before he was first diagnosed the term DD was thrown around. It's still not easy taking care of a toddler and infant twins. Why begrudge him a little game time here and there? Should his life be work work work and not a minute to himself? Surely you cannot wish for that.


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## themrs

Mom6547 said:


> My guess is that he had NO IDEA you wanted / expected him to do the dishes. First you ignored it for days. While you may have been steaming, I would bet a dollar it just never occurred to him that his different standard for dish maintenance was a problem for you.
> 
> He probably knows you are tired. Thus the taking of the kids to relieve you. But I would bet my last dollar that he should be doing the dishes before you get home has not even occurred to him. He did not say sorry because he likely does not even know that you feel he should have done them.
> 
> Honey, I am tired when I get home from work. It is hard to get started on dinner when the dishes are dirty. It would be helpful if you could do the dishes as you go or during the day. Is that something you can do?
> 
> I feel (I am, It is hard)
> It would be helpful - who does not love to be helpful?
> Is that something you can do?


No, he knows. We've had talks about it before. The funny thing is, it was he who initiated the discussion. He told me when I stopped working that he expected the house be clean when he got home. He said it didn't have to be spotless, but would I please at least have the kitchen cleaned once he arrives because coming home after work to a dirty kitchen added more stress to him. I agreed that coming home to a clean house is nice after a hard days work so I obliged.

Now, when the shoe is on the other foot he has conveniently forgotten his standard. Prior to starting to work again I asked if the deal still stands? Whomever works helps out at home, but the person who stays home does the lionshare of the work? He said yes. 

Maybe he didn't realize how HARD it is to get everything done. I can understand that. What I can't understand is not even doing anything towards cleaning. Not picking up anything and just ignoring it for days when coming home to the same mess when he was working would have sent him right into his cave.

It's a double standard and I guess I'm just going to have to accept it.


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## AvaTara539

This is my guess- you're making a way bigger deal of it than he is (and a bigger deal than you should) and he's not taking your seriousness seriously enough  I stand by my suggestion for marriage counseling, the both of you not just him. It seems like it would be a stressful situation for the both of you- he's watching the kids all day and still getting nagged by you about housework, and you're working all day and coming home to find things a mess (actually I can't tell if it's really a mess or just not as clean as you'd like it to be- like I said people have very different definitions of cleanliness standards).


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## themrs

AvaTara539 said:


> LOL well that makes some difference  my son has ADHD and before he was first diagnosed the term DD was thrown around. It's still not easy taking care of a toddler and infant twins. Why begrudge him a little game time here and there? Should his life be work work work and not a minute to himself? Surely you cannot wish for that.


I don't. I WANT him to have a release. It just seems like he thinks that taking care of the kids is the only thing he can do in a day and cleaning does not make the list. 

Like I said, I'm just venting. He's really not that bad and neither am I. It just got to me this week and I was feeling overwhelmed feeling like I had to do everything.


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## MGirl

Mom6547 said:


> Oh and I know this is not the point, but get a dishwasher! They DO save marriages.


Truer words have not been spoken. After we got ours, I think our arguments about anything in general dropped by 50%. There was just so much tension about dishes, it was seeping into everything we did. Seems quite silly, honestly. But truth, nonetheless. The sound of the dishwasher is the most soothing sound in my house now


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## Mom6547

sisters359 said:


> 7 mo old twins, 2 other kids, a full time job, and the dishes aren't getting done?


I disagree. The notion that housework and kids are mutually exclusive, usually whined by stay-at-home Moms does not need to be the case. It takes organization. It takes discipline both for the parent and the children. But last generation mothers did it. themrs did it. Many of us have done it, male and female alike.

7 months is not newborn and is a perfect time to start setting the expectation that they can and need to entertain themselves. Any child over 18 months can be part of the cleaning adventure. It takes at least twice as long. But it is just as valuable as playing with blocks.


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## AvaTara539

Btw didn't you say in a previous post he has ADHD? If that's the case then he doesn't have a double standard, he probably very literally forgets to do housework. Maybe it is kind of unfair feeling but I don't think you can reasonably expect him to meet your own standards in terms of organization.


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## themrs

AvaTara539 said:


> This is my guess- you're making a way bigger deal of it than he is (and a bigger deal than you should) and he's not taking your seriousness seriously enough  I stand by my suggestion for marriage counseling, the both of you not just him. It seems like it would be a stressful situation for the both of you- he's watching the kids all day and still getting nagged by you about housework, and you're working all day and coming home to find things a mess (actually I can't tell if it's really a mess or just not as clean as you'd like it to be- like I said people have very different definitions of cleanliness standards).


No, it was a horrific mess. Imagine every dish, pot, and pan you own dirty and piled up next to the sink and on the stove. That's what I'm talking about. In addition, the stove was dirty. The floor was dirty with juice stains from the kids spilling juice and him not wiping it up during the day. UGH! I came home for days on end and my shoes would stick to the floor when I walked through the kitchen. He just didn't seem to notice.


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## Catherine602

Some men have a difficult time saying they are sorry probably because they are very sensitive to disappointing their wife. They are sorry but can't say it. 

Why not let it go. Understand that he can't say it because he has a hard time dealing with anything that he does that disappoints you. If you understand that then you can be empathetic and take his first peace offering graciously.


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## MGirl

Catherine602 said:


> Some men have a difficult time saying they are sorry probably because they are very sensitive to disappointing their wife. They are sorry but can't say it.
> 
> Why not let it go. Understand that he can't say it because he has a hard time dealing with anything that he does that disappoints you. If you understand that then you can be empathetic and take his first peace offering graciously.


Stellar advice, Catherine.


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## themrs

AvaTara539 said:


> Btw didn't you say in a previous post he has ADHD? If that's the case then he doesn't have a double standard, he probably very literally forgets to do housework. Maybe it is kind of unfair feeling but I don't think you can reasonably expect him to meet your own standards in terms of organization.


Yes, he does. 

I'm asking him to meet HIS standard, not mine. When he does clean, he is actually a better cleaner than I am. He's way more thorough. 

It's not that he forgets to clean. Like many people with ADHD, he loses track of time. He will come home after dropping our son off at school and think he has soooo much time to do everything he needs to get done. Then he get sidetracked on the computer or playing a game or watching a show and by the time he looks up it's time to pick up our son again. He thinks he has more time to do things than he actually does and he doesn't anticipate how much time it will take to do something. He'll think it will take five minutes to do something that obviously will take at least 30 minutes to do. 

I am much more understanding of him now that I know his brain doesn't work the way others do. I'm just sick of coming home to a dirty house.


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## Mom6547

themrs said:


> No, it was a horrific mess. Imagine every dish, pot, and pan you own dirty and piled up next to the sink and on the stove. That's what I'm talking about. In addition, the stove was dirty.


Never underestimate the cluelessness of a man who has never been responsible for house keeping. Did his Mom do everything growing up?


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## themrs

Catherine602 said:


> Some men have a difficult time saying they are sorry probably because they are very sensitive to disappointing their wife. They are sorry but can't say it.
> 
> Why not let it go. Understand that he can't say it because he has a hard time dealing with anything that he does that disappoints you. If you understand that then you can be empathetic and take his first peace offering graciously.


The only options I really have are to let it go or walk around being a bitter biotch. I didn't say anything to him about not giving me a proper apology, but I haven't let it go. I'm just venting it here so I don't inappropriately go off on him.

I'm just so tired. I am tired when I am a SAHM too, but it's fine with me because that's what I want to do and I enjoy it. Going to work at the office AND coming home and cooking and cleaning is having two jobs. He just doesn't seem to understand that. It makes me resentful and mad that he just seems to want to do the bare minimum and then not even apologize when he knows he is wrong.


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## themrs

Mom6547 said:


> I disagree. The notion that housework and kids are mutually exclusive, usually whined by stay-at-home Moms does not need to be the case. It takes organization. It takes discipline both for the parent and the children. But last generation mothers did it. themrs did it. Many of us have done it, male and female alike.
> 
> 7 months is not newborn and is a perfect time to start setting the expectation that they can and need to entertain themselves. Any child over 18 months can be part of the cleaning adventure. It takes at least twice as long. But it is just as valuable as playing with blocks.



Thanks for understanding Mom. It is not impossible to watch the children AND clean the house. I did it every day. I know he's not me and I don't expect that much, but he can do somethings in a day. 

The twins can sit in walkers and entertain themselves for at least 20 minutes at a time. It does take longer to get things done when you have little ones running around but it can get done.


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## themrs

Mom6547 said:


> Never underestimate the cluelessness of a man who has never been responsible for house keeping. Did his Mom do everything growing up?


OMG, his mother was on him night and day to clean. That's why he is such a great housekeeper now. He can clean like nobody's business. He is WAY better at cleaning than I am. He notices things and gets in cracks to clean them that I don't even notice. 

That's part of his ADHD though. When he focuses on one thing that's all he can think about, even if it's cleaning. That's why it's harder for him to multitask.


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## Mom6547

themrs said:


> Yes, he does.
> 
> I'm asking him to meet HIS standard, not mine. When he does clean, he is actually a better cleaner than I am. He's way more thorough.
> 
> It's not that he forgets to clean. Like many people with ADHD, he loses track of time. He will come home after dropping our son off at school and think he has soooo much time to do everything he needs to get done.


We ALL have that problem, though I do agree it is worse in ADHD folk. We and they have to learn to PRIORITIZE.




> Then he get sidetracked on the computer or playing a game or watching a show and by the time he looks up it's time to pick up our son again. He thinks he has more time to do things than he actually does and he doesn't anticipate how much time it will take to do something. He'll think it will take five minutes to do something that obviously will take at least 30 minutes to do.
> 
> I am much more understanding of him now that I know his brain doesn't work the way others do. I'm just sick of coming home to a dirty house.


That is true. But it does not have to be an excuse. He CAN discipline himself to do work BEFORE games. WHEN the chores are done THEN he plays on the computer. ALL of us do this.


----------



## themrs

Mom6547 said:


> We ALL have that problem, though I do agree it is worse in ADHD folk. We and they have to learn to PRIORITIZE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is true. But it does not have to be an excuse. He CAN discipline himself to do work BEFORE games. WHEN the chores are done THEN he plays on the computer. ALL of us do this.



I'm not making excuses for him, believe me. I'm just starting to understand how his brain works. 

The thing for me now is I don't know how to get him organized. He won't do it on his own and rejects and attempt from me to help. I have talked to him about making a board and listing all the things he has to do in a day in order of importance to keep him on track. He thought that may work, but he hasn't done it yet.


----------



## Mom6547

themrs said:


> I'm not making excuses for him, believe me. I'm just starting to understand how his brain works.
> 
> The thing for me now is I don't know how to get him organized.


You don't. You said he has been unemployed for 2 months. That means he was previously employed. That means he has already started to learn organizational skills. 

Your message is a two pronged on

- Don't keep doing FOR him. He is not a baby. He can do for himself.

- Learn to communicate in a calm, direct, non-confrontational way.





> He won't do it on his own and rejects and attempt from me to help. I have talked to him about making a board and listing all the things he has to do in a day in order of importance to keep him on track. He thought that may work, but he hasn't done it yet.


Would direct work? I know you can organize at work. It seems obvious to me that the work should be done before the play. We expect it of our kids. What do you think?


----------



## themrs

Mom6547 said:


> You don't. You said he has been unemployed for 2 months. That means he was previously employed. That means he has already started to learn organizational skills.
> 
> Your message is a two pronged on
> 
> - Don't keep doing FOR him. He is not a baby. He can do for himself.
> 
> - Learn to communicate in a calm, direct, non-confrontational way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would direct work? I know you can organize at work. It seems obvious to me that the work should be done before the play. We expect it of our kids. What do you think?


I don't know. I don't want to be viewed as nagging and rude for making requests. It just seems I can't say anything to him about anything without him becoming defensive.

Along the lines of what Catherine said, he has admitted to me in the past that when I confront him on anything it hurts him and that is why he gets defensive with me. He said he already knows what he should be doing and being called out by me just makes him feel bad. There is no good way to go about it. 

I think for now I will just let it be and watch and wait. We'll be married 7 years in December you would think I'd have this man figured out by now!


----------



## Catherine602

Mom6547 said:


> Never underestimate the cluelessness of a man who has never been responsible for house keeping. Did his Mom do everything growing up?


Men's brains are wired differently from woman research shows. They think in a more linear fashion because of the influence of testosterone on brain wiring. They have a hard time multitasking like women with estrogen influenced brains.

The attention deficit adds to the lack of coping when there are too many things going on at the same time. I am not making excuses for him just asking you to try to see that he is not doing it on purpose.

I understand him because I have a mild form of dyslexia, I cant spell worth a d*mn and I become distracted easily. It is difficult for my husband because he is organized, I get so angry with myself but I cannot seem to help it. 

If I try really hard or my husband breathes down my neck I get nervous and I gets worse instead of better. 

What helps is to have a routine. My husband helped me develop a routine that I follow with each task. I wrote it down but I don't need to refer to it, writing it down just helped me to solidify it on my brain.

As you know taking care of kids is a difficult job of constant motion you cant even relax in the shower because they need watching. Work on the outside is not a constant task, you probably have time to sit and take a breather - have lunch, take breaks. 

He does not get a break. Therefore when you come home from work he has been working too and he looks to you to give him a break. You have to expect to work side by side complete the evening task and then both rest from your labors. 

Try working out a routine for him to follow and don not get angry because you make it worse. 

Themrs - this may be about something else. Are you angry with him because of the financial situation. I say that because a dirty kitchen is annoying but seems hardly worth a major meltdown. In addition, there is an easy fix, a list of task, if you were interested in staying angry. Just saying.

I offer this because I see something here and I want to help. Please take what I said in that light. The very best to you.


----------



## themrs

Catherine602 said:


> Themrs - this may be about something else. Are you angry with him because of the financial situation. I say that because a dirty kitchen is annoying but seems hardly worth a major meltdown. In addition, there is an easy fix, a list of task, if you were interested in staying angry. Just saying.
> 
> I offer this because I see something here and I want to help. Please take what I said in that light. The very best to you.


Thanks for the advice and kind words. It makes me tear up a little.

I didn't meltdown like kick or scream. I guess I had a silent meltdown in which I cleaned. LOL! I had a cleaning meltdown. 

I'm not "angry" at him. That's not how I feel. I actually feel appreciative of him and feel a little sorry for him that he can't seem to pull it together. What I am really lacking in right now is patience. Some days I have it, and others I don't. The other day I ran out of patience with everything (the dishes and our financial situation). I feel like I only have so much understanding in me and he's used it up. I don't want to take the things he does personally on account of his ADHD, but it's hard not too. So I guess I feel hurt. I feel hurt that he doesn't take the inititive to get things done. I want to respect him, but he's not giving me many reasons. THAT does make me angry. Not the dishes or him not having a job, but him not acting like a man whom I can respect. 

Thanks for asking me that. It really helped me think about how I really feel and I do feel angry at him for not being respectable in my opinion.


----------



## Mom6547

themrs said:


> I don't know. I don't want to be viewed as nagging and rude for making requests.


You are not allowed to speak to him? That is weird.





> It just seems I can't say anything to him about anything without him becoming defensive.
> 
> Along the lines of what Catherine said, he has admitted to me in the past that when I confront him on anything it hurts him and that is why he gets defensive with me. He said he already knows what he should be doing and being called out by me just makes him feel bad. There is no good way to go about it.


Great. Now you have to worry about losing attraction for a weenie.

He has basically written a script in which he is unwilling to do what he needs to do. But you cannot speak to him or it will hurt his wittle feelings. So as... to be able to do whatever the **** he wants, and there is not a goddam thing you can do about it.

But the paper plates. When the pots are dirty, say pots are dirty. I can't cook. Going to get take out. Do YOUR dishes. YOUR laundry.

Let your house become a steaming pig sty. And let him watch it happen and realize HE has to deal.



> I think for now I will just let it be and watch and wait. We'll be married 7 years in December you would think I'd have this man figured out by now!


Well it certainly would be nice to hear from you again in 6 months. Though I really would rather it be with some kind of solution rather than same-ol.


----------



## Catherine602

I don't agree that you should handle this as if there were no medically- associated problems with organization. And I don't think you need to use aggression either. He can't take the initiative because he is not going about it the right way. He needs a list and a plan. 

Themrs - feeling sorry for him relegates him to a child status, he is a man who stepped up to the plate. The sorrow you should feel is that the situation you are in now is filled with makes it easy to get tense and that's true for both of you. Don't feel sorry for yourselves, these challenges can make you come out stronger if you put the effort into making it so. 

When you approach your husband, do so with the respect he deserves. He is your man and he needs to be supported as such. If not your relationship will flounder. 

Leave your male energy at work and bring your feminine energy out when you come home. You know, the tension and energy that made him fall in love with you. 

Respect means that you have faith that he will whether this storm with you and get the family back on good footing. You don't bust his balls (I am being crude for affect). There is no reason to lose respect for him. Look at what he is doing and not what he is not doing.

If you lose faith in him and disrespect him, he will lose faith in himself as a man. He needs his wife to remember who she married and how much she loves him and RESPECTS him. He deservers your that because it is difficult for a man to lose a job and be Mr. Mom. That's just the way it is. But he is doing it.

You may say that women get no slap on the back for doing what he is doing so why should he - it is because society is so negative to this role in men that it takes all he can muster to feel worthwhile as a man and do what is needed for his family. Women get support for being a SHAM men get grief. 

Please try to calm your self and take stock. Don't destroy things, when you come out of this, and you will, you will have lost your husband if you are destructive now. Think of what you want to have when things improve. Then behave as if you have it.


----------



## themrs

I appreciate your advice Catherine. 

This isn't the first time I've been in this situation with him. I have explained in previous posts that when we first got married, he was in school for nursing and I worked so that he could go. Once he graduated, he didn't do the things necessary to pass the boards and he gave up. I did my best to be supportive, but I felt let down. I had worked so that he could go to school and make a better life for us and he just let it all go to hell.

That was five years ago and he hasn't done anything about passing the board since. I let it go, but we still aren't in a position where I can quit my job and that was the original goal. That is where I have lost respect for him. He doesn't see things through.

I take part of the blame. I never MADE him step up to the plate by stepping down, I just filled in the gaps and kept working. Now, I'm tired of it. I gave him an ultimatum. He has 3 months to find a job because I am quitting mine. I mean it. I'm not driving this boat anymore. I'm giving him an opportunity to be a man and provide for his family on a consistent basis. I told him that I will accept any life that he can afford to provide, but I'm not going to be the one who does it any longer. I'll be with him sink or swim, but I've got to let him take control or else he never will.

I am working on giving him respect whether I feel it or not. I certainly don't think he shows me love whether he feels it or not, but I guess that's besides the point. We are on the same side and we both want the same things, we just don't have the same ideas on how to get there. Unless I back down, he'll never step up so that's where we are.

I don't want to destroy things with my husband and I honestly don't think this will do it. We both got married with the conviction that no matter what happened we would not divorce. He often says to me, "I won't give up." He means that no matter what he'll keep searching for a way to make our marriage work. I feel the same way. I'm just tired of waiting for him to take the lead.


----------



## Mom6547

Catherine602 said:


> Men's brains are wired differently from woman research shows. They think in a more linear fashion because of the influence of testosterone on brain wiring. They have a hard time multitasking like women with estrogen influenced brains.


No doubt. So?


> The attention deficit adds to the lack of coping when there are too many things going on at the same time. I am not making excuses for him just asking you to try to see that he is not doing it on purpose.


My husband has ADHD. I could have so easily written this series of posts 10 years ago! I don't see the relevance of him not doing it on purpose. I don't doubt for a single second that he is not doing it on purpose.


----------



## Mom6547

Catherine602 said:


> I don't agree that you should handle this as if there were no medically- associated problems with organization. And I don't think you need to use aggression either.


I think you are referring to my advice. I feel so misunderstood! Where did I say she ought to ignore the medical problems?


----------



## Mom6547

heartbroken1957 said:


> :lol:I am roaring with laughter. :rofl:MEN DON'T DO HOUSEWORK. They absolutly don't know how. They can't do two or more things at once and depend on women to keep track of thier things.


I actually take a bit of offense to that. My husband is terrific at housework. (It was not always so.) Multitasking is not required for successful at whatever one sets oneself out to do. They can figure techniques to do it their own way. If we assume that they are dumb, act like they are dumb, they will act dumb.


----------



## Trenton

Themrs I am 100% on your side on this one. Granted, your husband is struggling with his unemployment which leaves him with a fragile ego and you questioning his worth since he's not even adding up to what you were when you were home and he's not capable of supporting your family causing you to have to do what he did and doing it successfully. So basically, you're good at both being a full time homemaker and mom as well as a financial supporter.

I feel for your husband on this because he's most likely struggling with feeling like a failure. Even if losing his employment is not his fault, he could pick up the slack and still be equal to you by being a homemaker and child provider. I don't buy ADHD as an excuse or any other multi-tasking man excuse either. 

Taking care of the twins for a night so you can rest is suppose to be your consolation prize? You have to get up and work all day. If he were a woman, she'd be attacked for not understanding the pressures of a full time job.

He didn't say sorry to you and he's not sorry. If he were he wouldn't let you spend 3.5 hours cleaning up dishes after cooking dinner.

Having said all this, the only solution is getting him to understand that you support him and understand how he feels but that the two of you are partners and he has to pick up the slack with housework until he is employed and things can go back to normal. That is what partners do. If it doesn't balance out at the end of the day then the partnership turns towards resentment.

I have NO DOUBT that he is fully capable. Make yourself clear!

In the meantime, you have nothing but sympathy from me. I hope things get better for both of you soon. In the meantime, don't be afraid to express how you feel.


----------



## Mrs.G

themrs said:


> Wow. He's the father of the year and I just don't appreciate him. I can't take it. I really can't.
> 
> I do not understand why I didn't get the same appreciation when I was at home? I honestly don't. I was expected by him to take care of the kids and keep a clean house and that's what I did. Now he stays home and he can't be bothered to wash dishes AND I'm supposed to give him a bj? Your husband has no business refusing to do something that he fully expected from you. It should go both ways!! When I have been unemployed, I kept a clean home with dinner on the table every night. He can at the very least, wash the frigging plates; he seems so lazy!
> 
> Well, it is what it is. I'll buy paper plates. I'll give him a bj. I'll go to work and pay all the bills. Then I will get up and down all night with the twins before I have to get up and go to work in the morning all while he plays video games and watches Netflix.
> He does not deserve a BJ since he is being selfish and irresponsible. The spouse who works does not get up at night; it is only fair since the working spouse needs their sleep to perform well. The SAHS can always nap with the kids during the day!
> 
> I'm just tired today and don't feel like doing any of it. YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE TO!!


----------



## Catherine602

Sorry I did not know the history of the situation. Has your husband had some trauma that makes his fearful of sucess. He comes to the end of a difficult nursing program and chocks on the exam. My advice is a little off or incomplete in view of his difficulty with success and therefore his relationship with you as a man. He seems to give lip service to making it work but is taking no action. What is he afraid of? What ever it is he has to step out and face it by getting a plan and moving towards it. 

I don't think you should take separation or divorce off the table. Complacency seems to have set in. You said your want to give him an ultimatum but it has no teeth. If you will not consider leaving. He needs a major kick in the but to get out there and work and be successful. 

Has he ever contacted the nursing school about what he can do to update his skills and take the exam. He may have to take courses for a year. He should work part time and pay for that himself. Ask him to explore this, put some teeth in it - what will you do if he does nothing. One thing you can do is to decide bounderies - what will you tolerate from him in order to stay in the relationship. Of course if you leave you incur the expense of childcare.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

MGirl said:


> Truer words have not been spoken. After we got ours, I think our arguments about anything in general dropped by 50%. There was just so much tension about dishes, it was seeping into everything we did. Seems quite silly, honestly. But truth, nonetheless. The sound of the dishwasher is the most soothing sound in my house now


In the Men's Clubhouse, how the dishwasher is loaded STARTS conflict.

Be careful.


----------



## Nickitta

> He's been dropping off and picking up our 5 year old son from school, and taking care of our 3 year old DD and 7 month old twins during the day


I think the paper plates option is a good idea. Count your blessings - he cares deeply about the children. I have many times witness situations, where not only the man doesn't work, but to add insult to injuries does *NOT *contribute at all to the household.


----------



## nader

themrs said:


> Wow. He's the father of the year and I just don't appreciate him. I can't take it. I really can't.
> 
> I do not understand why I didn't get the same appreciation when I was at home? I honestly don't. I was expected by him to take care of the kids and keep a clean house and that's what I did. Now he stays home and he can't be bothered to wash dishes AND I'm supposed to give him a bj?
> 
> Well, it is what it is. I'll buy paper plates. I'll give him a bj. I'll go to work and pay all the bills. Then I will get up and down all night with the twins before I have to get up and go to work in the morning all while he plays video games and watches Netflix.
> 
> I'm just tired today and don't feel like doing any of it.


Hey.. just going by your first post. I didn't see anything about video games, etc. until later. In that situation I believe video games cancel out bjs! And you DID say he is starting a new job soon so you will not be paying all the bills forever.


----------



## Trenton

Seriously? Count your blessings?

One spouse is pulling the majority of weight/obligations and is frustrated at having to do this and living with a spouse who does not respond to her needs/wants while doing the minimum?

You're saying count your blessings?

Do you not believe if a man posted this same story saying he worked all day and all his wife did was take care of the kids forcing him to come home and cook as well as clean up the messes his wife made that the advice would be totally different?

Yes, it would! Conrad would post a link to the Man Up sticky over at the men's clubhouse.

The double standard is so glaring and unfair here that it's embarrassing. More embarrassing that women are upholding it more so than men.

Are men the only ones allowed to focus on their own happiness to be sure that they can attain it? Is it acceptable for women to be doormats? Do we really believe that they should count their blessings if they find a man who loves their kids together and does the basics for them but does nothing else?

Holy Cow Batman! Holy freaking cow!


----------



## nader

> Are men the only ones allowed to focus on their own happiness to be sure that they can attain it? Is it acceptable for women to be doormats? Do we really believe that they should count their blessings if they find a man who loves their kids together and does the basics for them but does nothing else?


The difference is that women are TAUGHT to focus on their own happiness - shows like sex and the city, and most romantic comedies teach women to be unhappy with their lives and their husbands; while the same media tells men to treat their women like princesses until they become doormats or else they will leave you like the women on tv leave their husbands, when the reality is that they want to leave you because you became a doormat. So the men have to come to a message board to get pep talks from other men who have already been there.

In this thread, I don't think themrs was including all the pertinent details in her original post. At first she sounded unreasonable, she is giving us more of the big picture now and it is easier to see where she is coming from.


----------



## Trenton

nader said:


> The difference is that women are TAUGHT to focus on their own happiness - shows like sex and the city, and most romantic comedies teach women to be unhappy with their lives and their husbands; while the same media tells men to treat their women like princesses until they become doormats or else they will leave you like the women on tv leave their husbands, when the reality is that they want to leave you because you became a doormat. So the men have to come to a message board to get pep talks from other men who have already been there.
> 
> In this thread, I don't think themrs was including all the pertinent details in her original post. At first she sounded unreasonable, she is giving us more of the big picture now and it is easier to see where she is coming from.


She never sounded unreasonable to me. In fact, I felt the same from the first thread to the last thread. 

The rest of your post is convenient BS. Doormat syndrome knows no gender barrier. Perhaps men are more entitled to express it and so we have to listen to them yammer on about their over niceness and women are less inclined to complain because their complaints are shut down...much like you did to Themrs (knowing full well she didn't fit your assumption of being brain washed by tv into being treated like a princess).

It's gross.


----------



## nader

You seem kind of angry.. the tv princess crud doesn't apply to themrs, I was just responding to your rant about double standards. I agree it has more to do with personality than gender, but that's not how it is portrayed in the media. I DO treat my wife like royalty a good bit of the time and I know she appreciates it; but if I think she is being unreasonable, I call her out on it and if we have to fight, we fight. I've had to teach myself to do this, because I have a fairly compliant, conflict avoiding personality and I hate fighting. If I don't call her out on things, I will become a doormat. She, on the other hand, will never have to worry about this, being the strong willed and stubborn one in the marriage.

I've backed down on my initial response to themrs after looking a little closer. But I don't think it was just men who thought she was being unreasonable, at first.

And Themrs, the reason I've responded so passionately is that your husband sounds alot like me, and I think you and my wife would be BFFs!


----------



## themrs

Trenton - Thanks! You are right. There is a double standard. The advice would have been different straight away from men had I been a man posting. No man would stand working all day just to have to come home and wash dishes. 

Nader - Thank you too. I understand your point of view and I see where my husband is coming from. I don't WANT to be a nagging biotch. I love him. I've stuck with him through it all because I see his potential and I have faith he'll get it together. I just get frustrated with waiting for that day to come.


----------



## themrs

Catherine602 said:


> Sorry I did not know the history of the situation. Has your husband had some trauma that makes his fearful of sucess. He comes to the end of a difficult nursing program and chocks on the exam. My advice is a little off or incomplete in view of his difficulty with success and therefore his relationship with you as a man. He seems to give lip service to making it work but is taking no action. What is he afraid of? What ever it is he has to step out and face it by getting a plan and moving towards it.
> 
> I don't think you should take separation or divorce off the table. Complacency seems to have set in. You said your want to give him an ultimatum but it has no teeth. If you will not consider leaving. He needs a major kick in the but to get out there and work and be successful.
> 
> Has he ever contacted the nursing school about what he can do to update his skills and take the exam. He may have to take courses for a year. He should work part time and pay for that himself. Ask him to explore this, put some teeth in it - what will you do if he does nothing. One thing you can do is to decide bounderies - what will you tolerate from him in order to stay in the relationship. Of course if you leave you incur the expense of childcare.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He starts his new job next month. He's working towards going back to school to finish and become an RA. I'm not going to leave him now. I'm just going to quit so he doesn't have any other options but to finish. I gave him an out. I worked and provided so he didn't ever feel like he had too. Some people are like that. They don't really ever do anything until it's necessary.

In addition to that though, I was afraid that he would fail. I was afraid of letting go of my job because it felt safe to me. I knew as long as I worked we'd be alright. I am letting go of the fear and taking a leap of faith. I don't know what will happen when he takes control, but it's worth the risk to me because I can't go on like this. This role reversal is not working for us.


----------



## Trenton

nader said:


> You seem kind of angry.. the tv princess crud doesn't apply to themrs, I was just responding to your rant about double standards. I agree it has more to do with personality than gender, but that's not how it is portrayed in the media. I DO treat my wife like royalty a good bit of the time and I know she appreciates it; but if I think she is being unreasonable, I call her out on it and if we have to fight, we fight. I've had to teach myself to do this, because I have a fairly compliant, conflict avoiding personality and I hate fighting. If I don't call her out on things, I will become a doormat. She, on the other hand, will never have to worry about this, being the strong willed and stubborn one in the marriage.
> 
> I've backed down on my initial response to themrs after looking a little closer. But I don't think it was just men who thought she was being unreasonable, at first.
> 
> And Themrs, the reason I've responded so passionately is that your husband sounds alot like me, and I think you and my wife would be BFFs!


I don't feel angry. I feel disappointed and a little shocked. 

If you read my first thread, you'll realize I said,
"The double standard is so glaring and unfair here that it's embarrassing. *More embarrassing that women are upholding it more so than men*."

I didn't think it was just men either. In fact, I think it was mostly women. Which sort of speaks against your idea that women believe they deserve to be treated like princesses because obviously they believe they should count their blessings even if they are unhappy.

Anyway, I wouldn't say you were just like her husband. Unless of course you want to declare that you don't pull your weight in the partnership.

Buy paper plates as a solution? Seriously...?

I don't know, I find this thread ridiculous.


----------



## Trenton

themrs said:


> He starts his new job next month. He's working towards going back to school to finish and become an RA. I'm not going to leave him now. I'm just going to quit so he doesn't have any other options but to finish. I gave him an out. I worked and provided so he didn't ever feel like he had too. Some people are like that. They don't really ever do anything until it's necessary.
> 
> In addition to that though, I was afraid that he would fail. I was afraid of letting go of my job because it felt safe to me. I knew as long as I worked we'd be alright. I am letting go of the fear and taking a leap of faith. I don't know what will happen when he takes control, but it's worth the risk to me because I can't go on like this. This role reversal is not working for us.


Giving him a chance to succeed is great. Role reversals never worked for my husband and I either because much of my husband's feeling of value comes from providing for his family which fit for us because I enjoy being with my kids.

Soon enough those adorable twins will get a little older, you'll both get more sleep and things will get easier.

I don't want you to feel guilty for wanting to feel appreciated and treated fairly by your husband. Hence I got all upset by so many of these posts. Hang in there, keep telling yourself one more month. I would address your feelings clearly and honestly with your husband though...or else you will carry that resentment with you and always feel you had to do more and he had the luxury of doing what was best for him while you did what was best for the family.


----------



## AvaTara539

nader said:


> In this thread, I don't think themrs was including all the pertinent details in her original post. At first she sounded unreasonable, she is giving us more of the big picture now and it is easier to see where she is coming from.


:iagree:


----------



## Trenton

AvaTara539 said:


> :iagree:


Errrr...so working all day and coming home to cook dinner followed by cleaning the dishes for 3.5 hours seems fair to both of you?

I guess I'm the exception in thinking it doesn't and gladly so.


----------



## AvaTara539

@ Trenton- I think women responded to this post with "you should be grateful" because we know how hard it is to be the stay at home parents with the kids all day and that we can't always get all the housework done too (it should be SHARED, period). And it's very true that too many men in this country aren't even taking care of their own kids while they are unemployed, so at least her husband has integrity. Do I think he's a bit lazy? Yeah. Do I think his ADHD factors in a lot more than she or many of the people posting here realizes? OH YEAH. Do I also think he should agree to a chore chart where housework is *evenly distributed* and stick to it? For sure. But I don't doubt for a second that while her frustrations may be genuine, themrs is very condescending in the way she speaks about her husband and I don't think she gives him enough credit for what he DOES do. Focus on the negative aspects work on sure but don't downplay the importance of being a stay at home parent either.


----------



## AvaTara539

And who cleans dishes for 3.5 hours? That's awfully dramatic.


----------



## themrs

AvaTara539 said:


> And who cleans dishes for 3.5 hours? That's awfully dramatic.


When every dish/pot/pan in your house is dirty, PLUS you are cooking dinner at the same time, AND you have to frequently stop to change diapers and feed two crying 7 month olds, it takes 3 and a half hours. 

Who knows, maybe you could have gotten it done in one. I doubt it.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

themrs said:


> I know how he expresses his remorse. He makes it clear. He tried three times to "say" I'm sorry to me. First, by making a joke. I didn't laugh. Second, by asking to buy me something. I said no. Third, by taking the twins. To this I said yes.
> 
> You see, he kept upping the anty on things he was doing until I accepted one. His asking to do things for me is his way of saying sorry and my accepting his offer is equal to accepting his apology in his mind.
> 
> He could skip all of that and just say the words and promise to do better. Just as the words become empty after a while, so do his gestures because he mainly only does things to please me when he's feeling sorry.
> 
> His taking the twins for ONE night, doesn't get the dishes done.


The point is - saying I'm sorry is not his "language."

You keep trying to get him to say it in "your language." Never going to work.

He needs to be able to express I'm sorry in his language and you accept it in the way it is given.

I don't understand why you're so stuck on the words I'm sorry.

Saying I'm sorry all the time doesn't given it any more meaning than expressing you are sorry through actions - either can start to lose it's meaning over time.


----------



## Trenton

AvaTara539 said:


> @ Trenton- I think women responded to this post with "you should be grateful" because we know how hard it is to be the stay at home parents with the kids all day and that we can't always get all the housework done too (it should be SHARED, period). And it's very true that too many men in this country aren't even taking care of their own kids while they are unemployed, so at least her husband has integrity. Do I think he's a bit lazy? Yeah. Do I think his ADHD factors in a lot more than she or many of the people posting here realizes? OH YEAH. Do I also think he should agree to a chore chart where housework is *evenly distributed* and stick to it? For sure. But I don't doubt for a second that while her frustrations may be genuine, themrs is very condescending in the way she speaks about her husband and I don't think she gives him enough credit for what he DOES do. Focus on the negative aspects work on sure but don't downplay the importance of being a stay at home parent either.


I disagree vehemently with you. She is not condescending...she's trying darn hard to keep it all together in the face of a husband that thinks it's alright to pick and choose the responsibilities he wants to take on. If he couldn't get the dishes done during the day he could have helped her while she spent 3.5 hours cleaning them after she cooked dinner.

I've been a stay at home parent to three kids for the past 8 years. I understand how hard it is. It would be completely unacceptable to my husband if I decided I hated dishes and housework and rightly so. He works many hours a week and we're a team. I do my share, he does his. Themrs stated she stayed home with the twins for 5 months after they were born. I'm pretty sure she knows how difficult it is to take care of children...especially newborns.

Let's get real here...my husband is at work and doesn't have time to post long threads on TalkAboutMarriage or update Facebook. If he didn't take his responsibilities seriously he'd be fired. It makes good sense that when he comes home I can have the dishes done and laundry folded and put away as well as juggle the kids and their activities/needs/wants. Even if I hate doing it.


----------



## nader

Trenton said:


> Anyway, I wouldn't say you were just like her husband. Unless of course you want to declare that you don't pull your weight in the partnership.
> 
> Buy paper plates as a solution? Seriously...?
> 
> I don't know, I find this thread ridiculous.


Like Mr. themrs, I have attention/focus issues and recently went through a stint of unemployment. I try really hard, and I think he does too. There are times when I feel my wife is unreasonable, and times when I don't pull my weight like I should. So I can easily imagine myself in this place. Also, my wife has repeatedly threatened to switch to paper plates. At first I was all, no, we don't need to do that, but if she does it again I am going to just roll with it!


----------



## AvaTara539

Trenton said:


> I disagree vehemently with you. She is not condescending...she's trying darn hard to keep it all together in the face of a husband that thinks it's alright to pick and choose the responsibilities he wants to take on. If he couldn't get the dishes done during the day he could have helped her while she spent 3.5 hours cleaning them after she cooked dinner.
> 
> I've been a stay at home parent to three kids for the past 8 years. I understand how hard it is. It would be completely unacceptable to my husband if I decided I hated dishes and housework and rightly so. He works many hours a week and we're a team. I do my share, he does his. Themrs stated she stayed home with the twins for 5 months after they were born. I'm pretty sure she knows how difficult it is to take care of children...especially newborns.
> 
> Let's get real here...my husband is at work and doesn't have time to post long threads on TalkAboutMarriage or update Facebook. If he didn't take his responsibilities seriously he'd be fired. It makes good sense that when he comes home I can have the dishes done and laundry folded and put away as well as juggle the kids and their activities/needs/wants. Even if I hate doing it.


Well I disagree with you vehemently too  And that's okay. All the more reason they would benefit from seeing an MC, because there is more than one perspective to this problem.


----------



## AvaTara539

themrs said:


> When every dish/pot/pan in your house is dirty, PLUS you are cooking dinner at the same time, AND you have to frequently stop to change diapers and feed two crying 7 month olds, it takes 3 and a half hours.
> 
> Who knows, maybe you could have gotten it done in one. I doubt it.


If you were doing the dishes once a day, "every dish/pot/pan in your house" would not be dirty. And you must be making meals that take several hours to prepare if you have to "stop frequently to change diapers" while cooking them. A lot of your statements are highly dramatic. I mean seriously, just ask him to watch the kids while you cook dinner and do a load of dishes. Again I would still say if he doesn't agree to these simple compromises and a chore chart so you can ease the tension you should see a MC because it's not fair for him to do *nothing* in the house. Paper plates are not going to fix the resentment you feel about him not pulling his weight.


----------



## Trenton

nader said:


> Like Mr. themrs, I have attention/focus issues and recently went through a stint of unemployment. Also, my wife has repeatedly threatened to switch to paper plates. At first I was all, no, we don't need to do that, but if she does it again I am going to just roll with it!


I am in charge of dishes and actually did switch to paper plates for my sake as we don't have a dishwasher and it was becoming a redundant nightmare for me. No one in the family noticed except when I made something that had their plates falling apart underneath them...I learned paper plates work for certain meals and absolutely for lunch and breakfast as long as I don't make the eggs too runny. :rofl:

In this case, it's not the unemployment that's the problem or the paper plates though. It's her husband's inability to contribute evenly and then trying to make it up with half a$$ed, too easy apologies.

I'm beginning work in a few months as my children are all school aged now. I really wonder how this will shift responsibilities. I think I'll expect more of my kids and more of my husband.

I wonder, is your wife working now and you're home? I'm not sure whether or not you have kids. If you do, have you developed a new respect for what being at home entails? It's not as much hard work for me as it is a constant battle with the mundane and the unappreciated/under valued.


----------



## Trenton

AvaTara539 said:


> If you were doing the dishes once a day, "every dish/pot/pan in your house" would not be dirty. And you must be making meals that take several hours to prepare if you have to "stop frequently to change diapers" while cooking them. A lot of your statements are highly dramatic. I mean seriously, just ask him to watch the kids while you cook dinner and do a load of dishes. Again I would still say if he doesn't agree to these simple compromises and a chore chart so you can ease the tension you should see a MC because it's not fair for him to do *nothing* in the house. Paper plates are not going to fix the resentment you feel about him not pulling his weight.


I'm wondering if you read her post. She was doing them and then stopped completely in an attempt to get her husband to begin helping her. Talking to him didn't work so she hoped that by taking that action he'd realize how big of a job it is and that he should help out with it.

Highly dramatic...pfft


----------



## themrs

AvaTara539 said:


> @ Trenton- I think women responded to this post with "you should be grateful" because we know how hard it is to be the stay at home parents with the kids all day and that we can't always get all the housework done too (it should be SHARED, period). *And it's very true that too many men in this country aren't even taking care of their own kids while they are unemployed*, so at least her husband has integrity. Do I think he's a bit lazy? Yeah. Do I think his ADHD factors in a lot more than she or many of the people posting here realizes? OH YEAH. Do I also think he should agree to a chore chart where housework is *evenly distributed* and stick to it? For sure. But I don't doubt for a second that while her frustrations may be genuine, themrs is very condescending in the way she speaks about her husband and I don't think she gives him enough credit for what he DOES do. Focus on the negative aspects work on sure but don't downplay the importance of being a stay at home parent either.


I don't believe in giving people gold stars for things they SHOULD be doing. He takes care of HIS children. That's the bare minimum. Because other peolple don't doesn't mean he is exceptional. He's just doing the right thing and they aren't. Some people result to crime while they are unemployed. Does he get props because he didn't? No.

Contrary to what you may think, I'm no shrew. I don't speak to my husband about unpleasant things if I don't have too. That day I was fed up. We all have our moments, but I won't be painted with a broad brush as condecending because generally I'm not.


----------



## AvaTara539

Trenton said:


> I'm wondering if you read her post. She was doing them and then stopped completely in an attempt to get her husband to begin helping her. Talking to him didn't work so she hoped that by taking that action he'd realize how big of a job it is and that he should help out with it.
> 
> Highly dramatic...pfft


I stand by the highly dramatic and add a small dose of passive aggressive. My H did the same thing recently, he took down the cleaning list as a way of "telling me" he was unhappy that some of the things were not being done (like her, we had discussed it beforehand and I have ADD myself along with other physical disabilities that do impair my ability to do as much housework as he would probably be able to if he stayed home). That just struck me as so childish and passive aggressive.

In this case, it obviously matters more to themrs that the dishes get done than it does to her H, so she's only punishing herself by letting them pile up, just as my H was only punishing himself by taking down my only reminder to put my shoes by the door and take out the trash when it's full.


----------



## nader

Trenton:

We have a 3 month old. Both of us are working full time now.. wife works most saturdays and some sundays and I work weekdays, so I think we probably spend an equal time at home with him. Right now, watching Isaac is a highlight of my week. But it does get tiring and by the end of the day my brain is a little mushy. I usually try to use this time to get laundry done, but if not it is no big deal, I can just do it later. 

When wife was on mat. leave and not working I used to get irritated her if something didn't get done at home, but I very quickly understood and let her know it. I think we have a really good thing going


----------



## AvaTara539

themrs said:


> I don't believe in giving people gold stars for things they SHOULD be doing. He takes care of HIS children. That's the bare minimum. Because other people don't doesn't mean he is exceptional. He's just doing the right thing and they aren't. Some people result to crime while they are unemployed. Does he get props because he didn't? No.
> 
> Contrary to what you may think, I'm no shrew. I don't speak to my husband about unpleasant things if I don't have too. That day I was fed up. We all have our moments, but I won't be painted with a broad brush as condecending because generally I'm not.


Again nobody said "gold star" or "medal" as you said before, I stated appreciation and that's exactly what I meant. Taking care of the kids is the hardest job on earth and either parent who does it should get gratitude (at the very least internally) from the other.


----------



## themrs

AvaTara539 said:


> If you were doing the dishes once a day, "every dish/pot/pan in your house" would not be dirty. And you must be making meals that take several hours to prepare if you have to "stop frequently to change diapers" while cooking them. A lot of your statements are highly dramatic. I mean seriously, just ask him to watch the kids while you cook dinner and do a load of dishes. Again I would still say if he doesn't agree to these simple compromises and a chore chart so you can ease the tension you should see a MC because it's not fair for him to do *nothing* in the house. Paper plates are not going to fix the resentment you feel about him not pulling his weight.


I wasn't doing the dishes everyday. I stopped doing anything so that he would start. The dishes piled up for DAYS before I asked him when he would wash them. He didn't say anything and didn't wash them. I let them pile up and tried to ignore it, but I couldn't take it anymore so I broke down and washed them.

I couldn't ask him to watch the kids while I washed the dishes because he was playing video games. I HAD to stop after the babies cried for minutes on end while he focused on his game. I guess I could have let them cry, but I didn't want too. He had no sense of urgency to get them while he played.

I washed the dishes on Monday. It's Thursday and dishes are starting to pile up again. He didn't wash them on Tuesday. He didn't wash them yesterday. Do you see what I'm saying now? If I don't wash them, they won't get washed. Why should I have to come home and clean everyday? I'm not going to do it, but sometimes it just HAS to get done.


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## Trenton

nader said:


> Trenton:
> 
> We have a 3 month old. Both of us are working full time now.. wife works most saturdays and some sundays and I work weekdays, so I think we probably spend an equal time at home with him. Right now, watching Isaac is a highlight of my week. But it does get tiring and by the end of the day my brain is a little mushy. I usually try to use this time to get laundry done, but if not it is no big deal, I can just do it later.
> 
> When wife was on mat. leave and not working I used to get irritated her if something didn't get done at home, but I very quickly understood and let her know it. I think we have a really good thing going


Great to hear and congrats on the little one. Mine are all getting older and I miss that exhausted yet demanding time when each coo, smile and milestone feels like a tremendous leap for mankind. I don't think I thought I would ever miss it though...haha

Hubs and I have managed to work on our differences and learn to communicate with life being made so much better by this and we were near the point of separation just months ago so it is possible but it is also work. I did learn that we shared equal responsibility for the state of our relationship.

Resentments are flat out cycle causing and self defeating for both. The problem is that it's really, really hard to break through them once they pile up and it's harder still if you are with a partner who doesn't want anything to change.


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## AvaTara539

If you know if you don't wash them they won't get washed and it will drive you mad, then wash them! You're only punishing yourself and being passive aggressive to your H in the process which damages your relationship (just as him not tending to your needs damages your relationship).

I wonder why you haven't responded to my idea of a marriage counselor yet. Are you opposed to it for some reason?


----------



## themrs

AvaTara539 said:


> Again nobody said "gold star" or "medal" as you said before, I stated appreciation and that's exactly what I meant. Taking care of the kids is the hardest job on earth and either parent who does it should get gratitude (at the very least internally) from the other.


Let's not pretend all parents are created equal. Some stay at home parents do an exceptional job. My husband is going through the motions until he gets back to work. He's not doing everything he should be doing. I am grateful that he loves his kids. He doesn't forget to pick them up from school. He doesn't forget to feed them. He runs bath water, but he watches tv while they take a bath (I bathe the twins). He does what he has to do. No more, no less.

I don't think any job that can be done in your pajamas while you are playing video games is the hardest job on Earth.


----------



## Trenton

themrs said:


> I wasn't doing the dishes everyday. I stopped doing anything so that he would start. The dishes piled up for DAYS before I asked him when he would wash them. He didn't say anything and didn't wash them. I let them pile up and tried to ignore it, but I couldn't take it anymore so I broke down and washed them.
> 
> I couldn't ask him to watch the kids while I washed the dishes because he was playing video games. I HAD to stop after the babies cried for minutes on end while he focused on his game. I guess I could have let them cry, but I didn't want too. He had no sense of urgency to get them while he played.
> 
> I washed the dishes on Monday. It's Thursday and dishes are starting to pile up again. He didn't wash them on Tuesday. He didn't wash them yesterday. Do you see what I'm saying now? If I don't wash them, they won't get washed. Why should I have to come home and clean everyday? I'm not going to do it, but sometimes it just HAS to get done.


Themrs, have you spoke in great length about your frustrations and expectations to your husband? Does he just ignore you flat out? Does he say he'll do things and doesn't? Does he complain he's exhausted and plead his case or does he ignore you and pretend you never spoke? It seems as if you're developing a parent/child relationship.

You've got to address this. I really think you will resent him even after he is back at work.


----------



## AvaTara539

themrs said:


> Let's not pretend all parents are created equal. Some stay at home parents do an exceptional job. My husband is going through the motions until he gets back to work. He's not doing everything he should be doing. I am grateful that he loves his kids. He doesn't forget to pick them up from school. He doesn't forget to feed them. He runs bath water, but he watches tv while they take a bath (I bathe the twins). He does what he has to do. No more, no less.
> 
> I don't think any job that can be done in your pajamas while you are playing video games is the hardest job on Earth.


It's very clear to me that you have no respect for your husband. You dump on him on the forums every chance you get. Why are you still married to him if you think he is such a loser?


----------



## themrs

AvaTara539 said:


> If you know if you don't wash them they won't get washed and it will drive you mad, then wash them! You're only punishing yourself and being passive aggressive to your H in the process which damages your relationship (just as him not tending to your needs damages your relationship).
> 
> I wonder why you haven't responded to my idea of a marriage counselor yet. Are you opposed to it for some reason?


If I mention it to him, I'm rude. If I do the dishes myself, I'm passive aggressive. It's a no win situation for me. 

I see no proof that marriage counsoling works. He goes to IC for his ADHD. I'm hoping it will help him become more organized.


----------



## AvaTara539

themrs said:


> If I mention it to him, I'm rude. If I do the dishes myself, I'm passive aggressive. It's a no win situation for me.
> 
> I see no proof that marriage counsoling works. He goes to IC for his ADHD. I'm hoping it will help him become more organized.


I never said you were rude for mentioning it to him, in fact I agree there should be an equal distribution of chores, it was the WAY you "mentioned" it to him that was rude, and condescending. And I think you don't want to go to MC because you don't want to think you have any part in the dysfunction that is present in your marriage (and bc you believe it is ALL his fault, as you said in response to the idea of MC "he goes for his ADHD, I hope it will help HIM"). Otherwise why not? If it's gotten so bad that it's at this point it can't hurt to seek professional help.


----------



## Trenton

AvaTara539 said:


> If you know if you don't wash them they won't get washed and it will drive you mad, then wash them! You're only punishing yourself and being passive aggressive to your H in the process which damages your relationship (just as him not tending to your needs damages your relationship).
> 
> I wonder why you haven't responded to my idea of a marriage counselor yet. Are you opposed to it for some reason?


Where would she find time? 

Themrs...can't you give up your half hour lunch break for a little marriage counseling? Maybe you could go home on lunch and clean the dishes instead? Then you'd be happier to come home and make dinner and clean them again because there'd be less dishes! Screw it, buy paper plates!

I kid, I kid.


----------



## themrs

AvaTara539 said:


> It's very clear to me that you have no respect for your husband. You dump on him on the forums every chance you get. Why are you still married to him if you think he is such a loser?


I do not dump on him every chance I get. That's not true. I feel like you have an agenda. I LOVE my husband. I'm just venting and telling the truth. He's not a bad guy. He's sweet and generous and kind. He's my best friend. This is just one area in which he is lacking.

It's not all his fault. He should be working and I should be at home. He's just not cut out to be a stay at home dad and I'm not going to pretend that he is. He'll tell you himself that he's not cut out for it. Not everyone is good at taking care of kids and a home. There is no shame in it.


----------



## AvaTara539

themrs said:


> I do not dump on him every chance I get. That's not true. I feel like you have an agenda. I LOVE my husband. I'm just venting and telling the truth. He's not a bad guy. He's sweet and generous and kind. He's my best friend. This is just one area in which he is lacking.
> 
> It's not all his fault. He should be working and I should be at home. He's just not cut out to be a stay at home dad and I'm not going to pretend that he is. He'll tell you himself that he's not cut out for it. Not everyone is good at taking care of kids and a home. There is no shame in it.


Okay list one nice thing you've said about your husband *before* I accused you of dumping on him every chance you get. Not just in this post but in any of the posts where you have commented about your H (and there are many).


----------



## themrs

AvaTara539 said:


> I never said you were rude for mentioning it to him, in fact I agree there should be an equal distribution of chores, it was the WAY you "mentioned" it to him that was rude, and condescending. And I think you don't want to go to MC because you don't want to think you have any part in the dysfunction that is present in your marriage (and bc you believe it is ALL his fault, as you said in response to the idea of MC "he goes for his ADHD, I hope it will help HIM"). Otherwise why not? If it's gotten so bad that it's at this point it can't hurt to seek professional help.


Nothing could be further from the truth. I have said on TAM many times that I take full responsibility for the state of things now. I was afraid to let go of my job and my husband fell back on my like a crutch and never reached his potential because of it. I was controlling and expected him to step up even though I had already taken the role as provider. I resented him when he didn't do it even though all I had to do was step down and give him the opportunity to step up. That's my fault and I'm working on changing that now.

How would YOU have asked him to wash the dishes? I assure you that ANY way I said it would have been met with defense. That's part of his ADHD. He gets defensive at the slightest sign of criticism.


----------



## AvaTara539

Trenton said:


> Where would she find time?
> 
> Themrs...can't you give up your half hour lunch break for a little marriage counseling? Maybe you could go home on lunch and clean the dishes instead? Then you'd be happier to come home and make dinner and clean them again because there'd be less dishes! Screw it, buy paper plates!
> 
> I kid, I kid.


Mirror mirror.


----------



## Trenton

AvaTara539 said:


> Mirror mirror.


Nannie Nannie Poo Poo?


----------



## themrs

AvaTara539 said:


> Okay list one nice thing you've said about your husband *before* I accused you of dumping on him every chance you get. Not just in this post but in any of the posts where you have commented about your H (and there are many).


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/24787-boast-about-your-spouses-admirable-qualities.html


----------



## AvaTara539

themrs said:


> Nothing could be further from the truth. I have said on TAM many times that I take full responsibility for the state of things now. I was afraid to let go of my job and my husband fell back on my like a crutch and never reached his potential because of it. I was controlling and expected him to step up even though I had already taken the role as provider. I resented him when he didn't do it even though all I had to do was step down and give him the opportunity to step up. That's my fault and I'm working on changing that now.
> 
> How would YOU have asked him to wash the dishes? I assure you that ANY way I said it would have been met with defense. That's part of his ADHD. He gets defensive at the slightest sign of criticism.


I don't know that ADHD causes defensiveness. My H's *anxiety* causes defensiveness, to me that's a whole other thing. As for what I would say... "can you do the dishes today please?" LOL... no fancy tricks there. If he said no or was offended we would discuss it I guess. And honestly I've read a bunch of your posts on TAM and you just always seemed venomous to me when it came to your H. Just being straight up and honest. I'm down with the venting and I'm down with giving sympathy, and I do sympathize with your situation, but it's blatantly clear you don't respect him the way you are talking about him. In any of your posts, I always get this impression. And it's not something I assume about a lot of women the way they speak of their husbands or whatever, I'm all for venting and having a right to be pissed off. But IDK for some reason you just don't seem to want to make it better, you just want to vent and be resentful. That's the impression I get. Otherwise you'd be going to a MC right now, or something. BC it seems like your marriage is on it's last straw, you are that frustrated.


----------



## Syrum

I'm with Trenton on this one.

I don't think anybody should be sitting down relaxing all the time while there is still a lot of work to be done. That is unfair.

My fiance has cooked a lot lately, so I have been doing all the dishes. That is fair. 

I am sure if I was home all day (like I am right now) and he was at work and had to come and do everything while I sat my @ss he wouldn't be pleased. 

I am astounded that some people think she should just suck it up, and even joke about divorce. It's such a huge double standard, a man cares for his own children (as he should) and we want to give him a nobel prize.


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## AvaTara539

themrs said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/24787-boast-about-your-spouses-admirable-qualities.html


:smthumbup:

I like that. I did notice however that you claim in this post he is an "attentive father" and slam him here multiple times for not being a very attentive father, like he's playing video games while the twins are taking a bath and whatnot  so that's kind of contradictory. But your compliments were nice.


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## AvaTara539

Syrum said:


> I'm with Trenton on this one.
> 
> I don't think anybody should be sitting down relaxing all the time while there is still a lot of work to be done. That is unfair.
> .


And anyone who thinks that someone is sitting down relaxing all the time with twin babies and a toddler is whacky


----------



## themrs

Trenton said:


> Themrs, have you spoke in great length about your frustrations and expectations to your husband? Does he just ignore you flat out? Does he say he'll do things and doesn't? Does he complain he's exhausted and plead his case or does he ignore you and pretend you never spoke? It seems as if you're developing a parent/child relationship.
> 
> You've got to address this. I really think you will resent him even after he is back at work.


I don't think he flat out ignores me. Sometimes he'll say he's going to take care of things without me asking him and then he doesn't. I think it's more likely he forgets or just loses track of time. He doesn't plead his case or complain. 

I don't think I'll resent him when he's working. I am pretty good at letting things go. It's just the immediate things that get to me. If the dishes are washed, I don't tend to think about how long it took for him to do it or all the times when I did it. I'm just glad that they are done. I'm not one to hold on to things like that.


----------



## themrs

AvaTara539 said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> I like that. I did notice however that you claim in this post he is an "attentive father" and slam him here multiple times for not being a very attentive father, like he's playing video games while the twins are taking a bath and whatnot  so that's kind of contradictory. But your compliments were nice.


Perhaps I should have said he is a protective father. What I was referring too in that post was the fact that when we are at the park, while other parents just sit down and watch their children play - my husband plays with our kids. He is very protective and wants to make sure they don't get hurt or anything. 

When I am home, he leaves almost everything up to me and gets annoyed if I ask him to change a diaper. He feels like he doesn't have to do it because I'm there. I actually don't mind. It's just difficult to get everything done in the time I have and still get some sleep.


----------



## Trenton

themrs said:


> I don't think he flat out ignores me. Sometimes he'll say he's going to take care of things without me asking him and then he doesn't. I think it's more likely he forgets or just loses track of time. He doesn't plead his case or complain.
> 
> I don't think I'll resent him when he's working. I am pretty good at letting things go. It's just the immediate things that get to me. If the dishes are washed, I don't tend to think about how long it took for him to do it or all the times when I did it. I'm just glad that they are done. I'm not one to hold on to things like that.


Then there you have it. You need a place to vent and get it out so that you both can move on to a different phase in your relationship that is quickly approaching. As long as you know you can transform and not hold on to these resentments come a month from now, I think you just need a place to feel heard. 

In the meantime, when the dishes are not getting done and you're ready to pull your hair out, you can always go out and eat takeout and ask him to fend for himself and the kiddies an evening or two or five. You could do this to take some real time for yourself.

In the meantime, rant away, I sympathize and anyone who actually reads your words and understands them will as well.


----------



## themrs

AvaTara539 said:


> I don't know that ADHD causes defensiveness. My H's *anxiety* causes defensiveness, to me that's a whole other thing. As for what I would say... "can you do the dishes today please?" LOL... no fancy tricks there. If he said no or was offended we would discuss it I guess. And honestly I've read a bunch of your posts on TAM and you just always seemed venomous to me when it came to your H. Just being straight up and honest. I'm down with the venting and I'm down with giving sympathy, and I do sympathize with your situation, but it's blatantly clear you don't respect him the way you are talking about him. In any of your posts, I always get this impression. And it's not something I assume about a lot of women the way they speak of their husbands or whatever, I'm all for venting and having a right to be pissed off. But IDK for some reason you just don't seem to want to make it better, you just want to vent and be resentful. That's the impression I get. Otherwise you'd be going to a MC right now, or something. BC it seems like your marriage is on it's last straw, you are that frustrated.


I have asked in that way. I have said, "Can you wash the dishes today please?" Nothing. I came here and people said perhaps I should say "Would you. . . " instead. So I have said that too. Nothing. 

My marriage isn't on it's last straw. I'm just really venting. That's why I come here. It's easy to get a one dimensional impression of my marriage from what I write here, but that's only because I rarely post the good aspects of my marriage. I don't need advice on that! 

Yesterday, he picked me up from work. He smiled when I got in the car and said, "Hey beautiful!" I smiled back at him. We talked at length about something - can't remember what but it was a good conversation.

Then we went home. I started dinner. Noticed there were dishes in the sink, but I didn't say anything. I played short order chef because the 3 year old wanted left over chili, the 5 year old wanted tacos, and I needed to use the left over chicken we had so it didn't go bad so I made chicken salad. While I was doing this, he made the babies bottles and fed them.

Then after the kids went to sleep, he started a conversation with me about his new job. He told me not to worry about anything right now and that things will get better soon. We talked about it and he asked me about my worries and fears. I thanked him for talking to me.

Then he put in a new Netflix movie that came, and we camped out on the living room floor. We made love, then we fell asleep. Never made it to the bedroom. When one twin woke up, he got up and gave him a bottle. Then the other twin got up and it was my turn. 

That was our night. Uneventful as most days are in our marriage. Nothing to come to TAM and write about certainly.


----------



## themrs

Trenton said:


> Then there you have it. You need a place to vent and get it out so that you both can move on to a different phase in your relationship that is quickly approaching. As long as you know you can transform and not hold on to these resentments come a month from now, I think you just need a place to feel heard.
> 
> In the meantime, when the dishes are not getting done and you're ready to pull your hair out, you can always go out and eat takeout and ask him to fend for himself and the kiddies an evening or two or five. You could do this to take some real time for yourself.
> 
> In the meantime, rant away, I sympathize and anyone who actually reads your words and understands them will as well.


Thanks. I guess he really doesn't like to wash dishes! LOL! 

Like in the Breakup when Jennifer Aniston asks Vince Vaughn to wash the dishes - that was the scene at our house the other night.


----------



## golfergirl

Syrum said:


> I'm with Trenton on this one.
> 
> I don't think anybody should be sitting down relaxing all the time while there is still a lot of work to be done. That is unfair.
> 
> My fiance has cooked a lot lately, so I have been doing all the dishes. That is fair.
> 
> I am sure if I was home all day (like I am right now) and he was at work and had to come and do everything while I sat my @ss he wouldn't be pleased.
> 
> I am astounded that some people think she should just suck it up, and even joke about divorce. It's such a huge double standard, a man cares for his own children (as he should) and we want to give him a nobel prize.


I would say, "I've missed the kids being I was gone all day - I'll watch the kids while you clean the kitchen"
What can someone get upset about?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## themrs

golfergirl said:


> I would say, "I've missed the kids being I was gone all day - I'll watch the kids while you clean the kitchen"
> What can someone get upset about?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because I told him to clean the kitchen while I watch the kids. Once he got mad because I said the opposite. I told him I would clean the kitchen if he would please watch the baby. It was our now 5 year old son who had just learned to crawl then and was wanting me to pick him up. I asked him if he would please get the baby so I could clean. He said, "Why can't you do both?" 

It wasn't until I let the baby crawl around while HE was trying to clean that he saw it was distracting and asked for the same thing. I said, "You can't do both?" He looked at me with such understanding. I'll never forget that.


----------



## golfergirl

themrs said:


> Because I told him to clean the kitchen while I watch the kids. Once he got mad because I said the opposite. I told him I would clean the kitchen if he would please watch the baby. It was our now 5 year old son who had just learned to crawl then and was wanting me to pick him up. I asked him if he would please get the baby so I could clean. He said, "Why can't you do both?"
> 
> It wasn't until I let the baby crawl around while HE was trying to clean that he saw it was distracting and asked for the same thing. I said, "You can't do both?" He looked at me with such understanding. I'll never forget that.


If he got annoyed with that request then he is a selfish jerk. 2 things need to be done. Kids need to be played with and kitchen needs to be cleaned. One take one the other do the other. Being he had kids all days (on mat leave wit 3 year old and 5 month old - so I know it's wearing), and you probably miss them, it only makes sense. It doesn't seem fair you hedge on makin a reasonable request while you swallow it. I would tend to state it and let him have his pout. TFB - it's grown up life with 3 kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

Syrum said:


> I'm with Trenton on this one.
> 
> I don't think anybody should be sitting down relaxing all the time while there is still a lot of work to be done. That is unfair.
> 
> My fiance has cooked a lot lately, so I have been doing all the dishes. That is fair.
> 
> I am sure if I was home all day (like I am right now) and he was at work and had to come and do everything while I sat my @ss he wouldn't be pleased.
> 
> I am astounded that some people think she should just suck it up, and even joke about divorce. It's such a huge double standard, a man cares for his own children (as he should) and we want to give him a nobel prize.


I am getting a better picture of what happens here. When you come home from working all day he drops everything in your lap and goes to play. NO that is not OK. Why does your husband, who says he wants to make the relationship work, think that you should work all day and then provide domestic services for him when you come home from work. I thought you were the one not wanting to pitch in when you got home from work. 

This is a common malady, he seems to think that the household and child care is your job and he is helping out. You can read that many times, husbands view housework as helping their wives. My view is that when two adults live in one domicile and agree to have children, they are both equally responsible for chores. No one helps the other, it something people do when they live in a home The equitable division of the labor is the way to go. 

What do you do when you are inundated with the housework while he is on the computer? If you can't get him off of the computer then you can do tyr fallowing - yoi pay for intrnet service right, discontinue it, in addition, as a labor saving device, cut out all of the things you do for him. Let him do his laundry, cook his meals, clean up his area and anything to force him to realize that he is falling down on the job and needs to feel the withdrawal of any benefit he derives from this laziness. 

No wonder you are so angry, but instead of inaction, do something and make it drastic. Maybe make him sleep in another room and take care of that space.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

golfergirl said:


> If he got annoyed with that request then he is a selfish jerk. 2 things need to be done. Kids need to be played with and kitchen needs to be cleaned. One take one the other do the other. Being he had kids all days (on mat leave wit 3 year old and 5 month old - so I know it's wearing), and you probably miss them, it only makes sense. It doesn't seem fair you hedge on makin a reasonable request while you swallow it. I would tend to state it and let him have his pout. TFB - it's grown up life with 3 kids.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd also be stressed with how he supervises kids. Toddler still needs supervision especially in tub. He is being downright dangerous playing video games while kids do their own thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## themrs

Catherine602 said:


> I am getting a better picture of what happens here. When you come home from working all day he drops everything in your lap and goes to play. NO that is not OK. Why does your husband, who says he wants to make the relationship work, think that you should work all day and then provide domestic services for him when you come home from work. I thought you were the one not wanting to pitch in when you got home from work.
> 
> This is a common malady, he seems to think that the household and child care is your job and he is helping out. You can read that many times, husbands view housework as helping their wives. My view is that when two adults live in one domicile and agree to have children, they are both equally responsible for chores. No one helps the other, it something people do when they live in a home The equitable division of the labor is the way to go.
> 
> What do you do when you are inundated with the housework while he is on the computer? If you can't get him off of the computer then you can do tyr fallowing - yoi pay for intrnet service right, discontinue it, in addition, as a labor saving device, cut out all of the things you do for him. Let him do his laundry, cook his meals, clean up his area and anything to force him to realize that he is falling down on the job and needs to feel the withdrawal of any benefit he derives from this laziness.
> 
> No wonder you are so angry, but instead of inaction, do something and make it drastic. Maybe make him sleep in another room and take care of that space.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've done that in the past. I cut off the cable and internet and stopped paying HIS phone bill. The only thing it did was make him more adamant about getting a job so he could pay for the things he wanted. He doesn't get mad about it and it doesn't inspire him to do more around the house. It DOES inspire him to hit the pavement and get a job though. 

He's got a job though. He's just waiting for it to start. I think he may think he's on vacation until he starts next month!


----------



## themrs

Answerman said:


> Its Simple. A mans ego is very fragile and the fact that he is not working he already feels useless. So to admit more failure like not cleaning correctly or not cooking would make him feel worse. He is running from shame and because he loves you he doesnt want to show his shame to you. That is why he cannot say Im sorry.


Thanks for this. I'm not intentionally shaming him. I just wanted help and a verbal acknowledgement that he hasn't pulled his weight around the house. 

I guess he's too ashamed to say it. I was taking it too personally. I see that now.


----------



## themrs

golfergirl said:


> I'd also be stressed with how he supervises kids. Toddler still needs supervision especially in tub. He is being downright dangerous playing video games while kids do their own thing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OMG, I was! I had to let it go though or I'd drive myself even more crazy. I just have to trust him. I know he won't do anything to intentionally hurt the kids and so far so good. Everyday I come home and none of them are hurt so I just let it go.


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## Catherine602

Hey Answerman, got any solutions. It OK for him to have the feelings, it is natural. But feeling don't rule mature adults. His wife should not suffer because he cant handle the choices he made. This is all of his making, all he had to do was take an exam to be a nurse. 

His wife sacrificed to put him through school and I don't think it would be fair to call upon her to sacrifice more at the altar of his fragile male ego. He has to function adequately or he will lose his wife and family. Then he can add feelings of loneliness and loss to those preexisting feelings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

themrs said:


> OMG, I was! I had to let it go though or I'd drive myself even more crazy. I just have to trust him. I know he won't do anything to intentionally hurt the kids and so far so good. Everyday I come home and none of them are hurt so I just let it go.


I too have an H that makes careless decisions with our children out of not knowing better and it is stressful to have things out of your comfort zone! I guess I sympathize with your situation as my H holds me to certain expectations yet was stressed with me because my toddler and I were 15 minutes late from storytime and he had baby and had to pee. Duh put baby down and pee. Does he think I don't pee all day?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## themrs

golfergirl said:


> I too have an H that makes careless decisions with our children out of not knowing better and it is stressful to have things out of your comfort zone! I guess I sympathize with your situation as my H holds me to certain expectations yet was stressed with me because my toddler and I were 15 minutes late from storytime and he had baby and had to pee. Duh put baby down and pee. Does he think I don't pee all day?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I'm sure he would have figured it out himself if you hadn't showed up. He certainly wouldn't have peed on himself!


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## golfergirl

themrs said:


> I'm sure he would have figured it out himself if you hadn't showed up. He certainly wouldn't have peed on himself!


I hope he wouldn't lol!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs.G

Trenton said:


> Seriously? Count your blessings?
> 
> One spouse is pulling the majority of weight/obligations and is frustrated at having to do this and living with a spouse who does not respond to her needs/wants while doing the minimum?
> 
> You're saying count your blessings?
> 
> Do you not believe if a man posted this same story saying he worked all day and all his wife did was take care of the kids forcing him to come home and cook as well as clean up the messes his wife made that the advice would be totally different?
> 
> Yes, it would! Conrad would post a link to the Man Up sticky over at the men's clubhouse.
> 
> The double standard is so glaring and unfair here that it's embarrassing. More embarrassing that women are upholding it more so than men.
> 
> Are men the only ones allowed to focus on their own happiness to be sure that they can attain it? Is it acceptable for women to be doormats? Do we really believe that they should count their blessings if they find a man who loves their kids together and does the basics for them but does nothing else?
> 
> Holy Cow Batman! Holy freaking cow!


:iagree:


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## Mom6547

themrs said:


> OMG, his mother was on him night and day to clean. That's why he is such a great housekeeper now. He can clean like nobody's business. He is WAY better at cleaning than I am. He notices things and gets in cracks to clean them that I don't even notice.


It is not about being able to clean. It is about being held responsible. If she was ON him, SHE probably took responsibility.


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## Mom6547

themrs said:


> Trenton - Thanks! You are right. There is a double standard.


Don't get lost in gender wars. Solve YOUR problem.


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## Mom6547

themrs said:


> I worked and provided so he didn't ever feel like he had too. Some people are like that. They don't really ever do anything until it's necessary.


My husband used to be like that. Why would he ever partner equally in the household if he did not have to? If I did not REQUIRE it? He didn't. Once I required it, he did it. And grew. And wound up happy and proud. That is a simplification. But true nonetheless.



> In addition to that though, I was afraid that he would fail.


I remember that feeling well. You know he knew, Subconsciously he knew. And felt the failure I saw him as.





> I was afraid of letting go of my job because it felt safe to me. I knew as long as I worked we'd be alright. I am letting go of the fear and taking a leap of faith. I don't know what will happen when he takes control, but it's worth the risk to me because I can't go on like this. This role reversal is not working for us.


What role reversal? Are we back to the male provider nonsense again? That is the one thing that makes me crazy about this board.


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## Mom6547

Trenton said:


> Errrr...so working all day and coming home to cook dinner followed by cleaning the dishes for 3.5 hours seems fair to both of you?
> 
> I guess I'm the exception in thinking it doesn't and gladly so.


Nope. I think it is crazy BS. I DO think your focus on male / female double standard is a distraction to helping themrs. But I certainly am guilty of tearing off on a tangent. So I understand where you are coming from.


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## Mom6547

AvaTara539 said:


> @ Trenton- I think women responded to this post with "you should be grateful" because we know how hard it is to be the stay at home parents with the kids all day and that we can't always get all the housework done too (it should be SHARED, period).


PERIOD? Not. When I was the stay at home parent, the housework was MINE. DH filled in the gaps because he is a wicked nice guy. But the kids and I did the lion's share. You think women of former generations whined about how HAAARD it is? 

The real deal is that we spoil our children in this generation. I nub them so much I cannot expect them to take out the garbage. Or entertain themselves for a half an hour without tv or nintendo. I have a friend who thinks of her four year old as a baby, and babies cannot be expected to clean up their own toys.

We are raising a generation of entitled women who will come here complaining that their husbands are not knights in shining armor and men who need to man up because their parents never taught them.






> And it's very true that too many men in this country aren't even taking care of their own kids while they are unemployed, so at least her husband has integrity. Do I think he's a bit lazy? Yeah. Do I think his ADHD factors in a lot more than she or many of the people posting here realizes? OH YEAH. Do I also think he should agree to a chore chart where housework is *evenly distributed* and stick to it?


She sure as hell shouldn't be doing it all of it. But if he is home all day, what is this evenly divided business?




> For sure. But I don't doubt for a second that while her frustrations may be genuine, themrs is very condescending in the way she speaks about her husband and I don't think she gives him enough credit for what he DOES do.


Oh Lord. The mrs ***** foots around even speaking openly to him for fear of making him feel bad and gets condescending. Themrs allow me to register disagreement.

What you need is a little more forthrightness and less tender loving enabling is in order...


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## Mom6547

nader said:


> Like Mr. themrs, I have attention/focus issues and recently went through a stint of unemployment. I try really hard, and I think he does too. There are times when I feel my wife is unreasonable, and times when I don't pull my weight like I should. So I can easily imagine myself in this place. Also, my wife has repeatedly threatened to switch to paper plates. At first I was all, no, we don't need to do that, but if she does it again I am going to just roll with it!


My husband was like this as well. What was needed was a motivation to really solve the problem. While I was taking the brunt of everything, there was no motivation.

Attention issues are real. They can also be an excuse to just be lame. Is it harder for him. Hell yes. He has to establish habits, routines and systems. Do we still have hickups? Hell yes. Any time life throws us something off routine, I have to react. But I have attention issues does not mean you cannot learn and grow and contribute.


----------



## Mom6547

AvaTara539 said:


> If you were doing the dishes once a day, "every dish/pot/pan in your house" would not be dirty.


Go back and read again. He had not done dishes for many days. Themrs was trying to see what would happen if she did not jump in a rescue him.


----------



## Mom6547

nader said:


> Trenton:
> 
> We have a 3 month old. Both of us are working full time now.. wife works most saturdays and some sundays and I work weekdays, so I think we probably spend an equal time at home with him. Right now, watching Isaac is a highlight of my week. But it does get tiring and by the end of the day my brain is a little mushy.


A touch off topic, but one thought wrt 3 month olds. SLING or Baby bjorn. If your baby prefers a sling, Mom can nurse with him in there and go about her business. Sometimes a baby who nurses in a sling prefers to be with Dad in a different carrier like a Bjorn.


----------



## Mom6547

AvaTara539 said:


> If you know if you don't wash them they won't get washed and it will drive you mad, then wash them! You're only punishing yourself and being passive aggressive to your H in the process which damages your relationship (just as him not tending to your needs damages your relationship).
> 
> I wonder why you haven't responded to my idea of a marriage counselor yet. Are you opposed to it for some reason?


I think you need to read for comprehension. This is about more than dishes.


----------



## Mom6547

themrs said:


> If I mention it to him, I'm rude. If I do the dishes myself, I'm passive aggressive. It's a no win situation for me.
> 
> I see no proof that marriage counsoling works. He goes to IC for his ADHD. I'm hoping it will help him become more organized.


It is not a matter of organization. Organization is not rocket science, even for ADHD people. It does not take great skill in organization to know to do the dishes before the video games. The problem is one of MOTIVATION. Why would he change when right now he can play video games and the worst he has to deal with is low grade friction from you? Dollars gets you donuts that if he were to post here, the problems he would be talking about is the conversations NAGGING that you guys keep having.

Set EFFECTIVE limits. Make aggressive love bank deposits. Listen and respond to his needs. But REQUIRE with actions the things that you require.


----------



## Mom6547

AvaTara539 said:


> I never said you were rude for mentioning it to him, in fact I agree there should be an equal distribution of chores, it was the WAY you "mentioned" it to him that was rude, and condescending.


Rude and condescending? I don't know. But I do agree that the way you asked him to do the dishes was passive aggressive and ineffective. Why not just state directly gee honey please do the dishes? Direct often works.


----------



## Mom6547

AvaTara539 said:


> I don't know that ADHD causes defensiveness.


It is not a direct causal relationship, but it is very common especially in people who grew up before ADHD was understood. A lot of times these kids hear a lot of why can't you do this, and what is wrong with you kind of messages growing up. They have no idea why they can't. They try and fail a lot. They get used to failure. And then they need to be defensive to deal with the sense of failure.


----------



## themrs

The dishes are piling up again. I refuse to wash them. 

Today he got a babysitter so he is going to do some odd jobs in town to make some extra money. I know they won't get washed today because of that. 

Tomorrow he will be picking up some extra work again so they won't get washed tomorrow.

So I can ask him if he would please wash the dishes on Sunday or wait until Sunday and ask him then. Meanwhile, the dishes will pile up because after a hard days work he will not wash dishes and be angry if I ask him.


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## Mom6547

Take out.


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## themrs

Mom6547 said:


> Take out.


That won't wash the dishes that are there now.


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## Mom6547

themrs said:


> That won't wash the dishes that are there now.


Does he even KNOW how you feel about the dishes? I am concerned that you are suffering in silence and he is clueless. What would happen if you said directly I feel resentful that you are home all day and I come home to all the unwashed dishes?


----------



## Trenton

Mom6547 said:


> Nope. I think it is crazy BS. I DO think your focus on male / female double standard is a distraction to helping themrs. But I certainly am guilty of tearing off on a tangent. So I understand where you are coming from.


I think you're wrong. I think she wanted support and felt frustrated and wanted to share. Instead of support and reasonable responses she got...count your blessings, it's not that bad, switch to paper plates...responses. Which did really seem weird to me based upon what she posted.

As to whether or not it will actually help Themrs to have this recognized, I think so. I think it makes her frustrations seem understood at the root. She knows darn well this isn't working for them as a family and she also knows her lack of support on the forums came from women and men who accept and promote gender roles.

Bottom line, switching to paper plates or counting her blessings isn't going to help Themrs. Understanding that the gender roles her and her spouse are currently taking on aren't working for them, will.

There are times when our gender actually does effect our lives for both men and women. There's nothing wrong about talking about it when it crops up.


----------



## Mom6547

Trenton said:


> I think you're wrong. I think she wanted support and felt frustrated and wanted to share. Instead of support and reasonable responses she got...count your blessings, it's not that bad, switch to paper plates...responses. Which did really seem weird to me based upon what she posted.


It was a small point. My pet thing. Certainly I don't agree with count your blessings! 



> As to whether or not it will actually help Themrs to have this recognized, I think so. I think it makes her frustrations seem understood at the root.


Ha! That is my pet peeve. The usefulness of gender stereotyping in solving problems is heavily over rated, in my opinion. What solutions does it offer HER that there is some double standard? She has a living breathing actual husband at home who needs a butt kicking. 




> She knows darn well this isn't working for them as a family and she also knows her lack of support on the forums came from women and men who accept and promote gender roles.
> 
> Bottom line, switching to paper plates or counting her blessings isn't going to help Themrs.


Well I certainly agree with that. Focusing on reestablishing "proper" gender roles strikes me as a lame solution as well. AFAIC there is nothing wrong with wanting your husband to be a capable, mature grown up. Yah I am nuts. But men CAN and DO do dishes all the time. Being male does not make you some how disabled in that department. My ADHD husband manages to be an equal partner in the housework just FINE. He has learned habits and routines. 





> Understanding that the gender roles her and her spouse are currently taking on aren't working for them, will.


See it doesn't have to be about gender roles. It CAN be about solutions. What if she WANTED to work? She should not simply because he is lame?



> There are times when our gender actually does effect our lives for both men and women.


Only if we let them.



> There's nothing wrong about talking about it when it crops up.


Unless it distracts one from the actual problem at hand and gives a shiny distraction to argue about. Now I am all for her being a sahm and taking on the housework if she WANTS to use that solution. But it is not the only solution. Her gender does not require it.


----------



## themrs

Mom6547 said:


> Does he even KNOW how you feel about the dishes? I am concerned that you are suffering in silence and he is clueless. What would happen if you said directly I feel resentful that you are home all day and I come home to all the unwashed dishes?


I will say that. It's worth a shot. 

We've had conversation like that in the past and instead of addressing what I said, he will fire back at me what he is resentful about. But like I said, that was in the past. Maybe he's grown a bit and won't do that. It's worth a shot.


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## Mom6547

Trenton said:


> I think you're wrong.


I did not see that line. That is pretty strong, dontcha think? Calling me WRONG?!!??!!


----------



## themrs

Trenton said:


> I think you're wrong. I think she wanted support and felt frustrated and wanted to share. Instead of support and reasonable responses she got...count your blessings, it's not that bad, switch to paper plates...responses. Which did really seem weird to me based upon what she posted.
> 
> As to whether or not it will actually help Themrs to have this recognized, I think so. I think it makes her frustrations seem understood at the root. She knows darn well this isn't working for them as a family and she also knows her lack of support on the forums came from women and men who accept and promote gender roles.
> 
> Bottom line, switching to paper plates or counting her blessings isn't going to help Themrs. Understanding that the gender roles her and her spouse are currently taking on aren't working for them, will.
> 
> There are times when our gender actually does effect our lives for both men and women. There's nothing wrong about talking about it when it crops up.


This is how I feel Trenton. Gender roles are real whether or not we like them. I believe my husband and I will be better off practicing traditional gender roles in which I stay home and do the housework and he brings home the bacon. This way isn't working for us. I accept that and I'm working towards getting us to the place that is better suited to each of our abilites. 

However, in the meantime the dishes need to be washed and I don't want to work all day and have to come home and do them. That's where we are now.


----------



## turnera

AvaTara539 said:


> After "Do you think you will get to these dishes today?" is rude.


I agree.

How about: "Hon, this is stressing me out. I know you do a lot to take care of the kids, and I know cleaning isn't your thing, but you're at home all day. I'm not. And when I get home, I have no problem making dinner. But I think expecting me to go to work, commute home, cook dinner AND clean the dishes _while you're home_ is unfair. And it's hurting my feelings and making me unhappy with you. 

I realize that you'll be off working again in another month, and we can discuss the distribution of chores then when both of us are working full time, but for the next month, it is going to mean a HUGE thing to me if you pick up the kitchen cleaning while you're still at home all day. 

What do you think about it? If you think it's unfair of me to ask that of you, let's talk about what you think IS far, so we can reach a solution. Because this isn't working for me."


----------



## themrs

turnera said:


> I agree.
> 
> How about: "Hon, this is stressing me out. I know you do a lot to take care of the kids, and I know cleaning isn't your thing, but you're at home all day. I'm not. And when I get home, I have no problem making dinner. But I think expecting me to go to work, commute home, cook dinner AND clean the dishes _while you're home_ is unfair. And it's hurting my feelings and making me unhappy with you.
> 
> I realize that you'll be off working again in another month, and we can discuss the distribution of chores then when both of us are working full time, but for the next month, it is going to mean a HUGE thing to me if you pick up the kitchen cleaning while you're still at home all day.
> 
> What do you think about it? If you think it's unfair of me to ask that of you, let's talk about what you think IS far, so we can reach a solution. Because this isn't working for me."


He would say, "I'll wash the dishes when I want to wash them. Why does everything have to be on YOUR time? If you don't want to look at the dishes in the sink, wash them. I don't mind seeing dishes in the sink for days and I'll wash them when I feel like washing them."

This is what he's said to me in the past almost exactly.


----------



## turnera

themrs said:


> I've tried over the years to get him on board with the distribution of the chores. No go. He doesn't want to be committed to doing chores and he has said as much.


My husband said the exact same thing. My IC wanted me to tell my husband that I needed him to pick just ONE chore to be responsible for, so I didn't feel like I had the world on my shoulders. He said he couldn't. Shocked, I asked why. He said he 'never knows' when he'll be home and be able to get to the chore. Then he refused to talk about it any more.

So I stewed for a few days, and finally decided that I would PICK a chore for him, since he refused to help me. I stopped washing his clothes.

Over the next month, his clothes supply slowly dwindled away as the pile of dirty clothes on his side of the bed mounted.

He finally blew up at me and demanded to know why I wasn't washing his clothes.

I just shrugged and said "You said you couldn't possibly help me with any household chores, and I decided I can't possibly continue to DO everything, so something had to go. I chose your laundry, since it doesn't matter to me if you have clean clothes. Since I have to do everything else around the house, I guess that chore's yours now."

He started helping with other things that same day, and I washed a load of clothes for him.


----------



## Mom6547

themrs said:


> I will say that. It's worth a shot.
> 
> We've had conversation like that in the past and instead of addressing what I said, he will fire back at me what he is resentful about. But like I said, that was in the past. Maybe he's grown a bit and won't do that. It's worth a shot.


Do you address what he is resentful about? When my DH would do that, I stop for a thoughtful second. Say something like which should we discuss first solving the problem with the dishes or solving the problem with .. .whatever? Then discuss in whatever order he comes up with.


----------



## turnera

Mom6547 said:


> My guess is that he had NO IDEA you wanted / expected him to do the dishes. First you ignored it for days. While you may have been steaming, I would bet a dollar it just never occurred to him that his different standard for dish maintenance was a problem for you.
> 
> He probably knows you are tired. Thus the taking of the kids to relieve you. But I would bet my last dollar that he should be doing the dishes before you get home has not even occurred to him. He did not say sorry because he likely does not even know that you feel he should have done them.


Yep. Men are not mind readers. This is an issue of communication. 

And if "I'm sorry" is what you're craving, then you have to spell THAT out for him, too. "I love that you're trying to make me feel better by offering to take the kids off my hands. I know that that is how you show love. But how I RECEIVE love is different - I really need to hear the actual words I'M SORRY. If you could do that the next time, it would REALLY fill my love bank for you."


----------



## turnera

themrs said:


> I'm not making excuses for him, believe me. I'm just starting to understand how his brain works.
> 
> The thing for me now is I don't know how to get him organized. He won't do it on his own and rejects and attempt from me to help. I have talked to him about making a board and listing all the things he has to do in a day in order of importance to keep him on track. He thought that may work, but he hasn't done it yet.


 Isn't this a moot subject anyway? He'll be back to work in a month. Then you have to go back to however you were getting things done before.


----------



## themrs

Mom6547 said:


> Do you address what he is resentful about? When my DH would do that, I stop for a thoughtful second. Say something like which should we discuss first solving the problem with the dishes or solving the problem with .. .whatever? Then discuss in whatever order he comes up with.


Of course. He would say he's resentful that I can't just let him do things in his own time. Why would I even MENTION the dishes in the first place? That's his attitude. Like even mentioning something that he needs to do is offensive to him. He wants the freedom to do things when HE wants to do it and not be committed to a timeline like washing the dishes every day, or every other day. Even if I asked him if he would wash the dishes once a week he would cringe. He wants to make the decision on when he does something with no prompting from me.


----------



## themrs

turnera said:


> My husband said the exact same thing. My IC wanted me to tell my husband that I needed him to pick just ONE chore to be responsible for, so I didn't feel like I had the world on my shoulders. He said he couldn't. Shocked, I asked why. He said he 'never knows' when he'll be home and be able to get to the chore. Then he refused to talk about it any more.
> 
> So I stewed for a few days, and finally decided that I would PICK a chore for him, since he refused to help me. I stopped washing his clothes.
> 
> Over the next month, his clothes supply slowly dwindled away as the pile of dirty clothes on his side of the bed mounted.
> 
> He finally blew up at me and demanded to know why I wasn't washing his clothes.
> 
> I just shrugged and said "You said you couldn't possibly help me with any household chores, and I decided I can't possibly continue to DO everything, so something had to go. I chose your laundry, since it doesn't matter to me if you have clean clothes. Since I have to do everything else around the house, I guess that chore's yours now."
> 
> He started helping with other things that same day, and I washed a load of clothes for him.


He washes his own clothes when they are dirty anyway. He wouldn't ask me to do that for him. If I didn't cook him a meal, he'd get up and make his own and he wouldn't even be offended. He does this many days anyway if I am cooking something and he wants something else. Those types of things aren't a big deal for him.

There isn't really anything that I could stop doing for him that he would just pick right up and do for himself. As a matter of fact, when all the dishes are dirty he will rip a piece of foil off and put his dinner on that. I'm not joking.


----------



## Mom6547

themrs said:


> Of course. He would say he's resentful that I can't just let him do things in his own time. Why would I even MENTION the dishes in the first place? That's his attitude. Like even mentioning something that he needs to do is offensive to him. He wants the freedom to do things when HE wants to do it and not be committed to a timeline like washing the dishes every day, or every other day. Even if I asked him if he would wash the dishes once a week he would cringe. He wants to make the decision on when he does something with no prompting from me.


I smack my hand to my forehead! I do! What was it Cap'n Jack Sparrow said. We have established that the principle is sound, now we are just haggling on price.

You come back with, oh ok you are willing to do the dishes. Great! And let them pile. Borrow money from turning off cable or whatever you have to to buy paper and take out. Effective limit setting.


----------



## turnera

themrs said:


> He starts his new job next month. He's working towards going back to school to finish and become an RA. I'm not going to leave him now. I'm just going to quit so he doesn't have any other options but to finish. I gave him an out. I worked and provided so he didn't ever feel like he had too. Some people are like that. They don't really ever do anything until it's necessary.
> 
> In addition to that though, I was afraid that he would fail. I was afraid of letting go of my job because it felt safe to me. I knew as long as I worked we'd be alright. I am letting go of the fear and taking a leap of faith. I don't know what will happen when he takes control, but it's worth the risk to me because I can't go on like this. This role reversal is not working for us.


 Interesting plan. 

Does HE know you're going to quit?


----------



## golfergirl

themrs said:


> Of course. He would say he's resentful that I can't just let him do things in his own time. Why would I even MENTION the dishes in the first place? That's his attitude. Like even mentioning something that he needs to do is offensive to him. He wants the freedom to do things when HE wants to do it and not be committed to a timeline like washing the dishes every day, or every other day. Even if I asked him if he would wash the dishes once a week he would cringe. He wants to make the decision on when he does something with no prompting from me.


I'd wash for u and kids - when he came to table with no dish or cutlery for him - I guess he would need a solution. Wash what you need - not a spoon more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## themrs

turnera said:


> Interesting plan.
> 
> Does HE know you're going to quit?


Yes. I told him. We actually talked about it last night and he agreed it was the best thing for both of us to do. He said he'd be happier if I stayed home. That was big. He hasn't always felt like that.


----------



## golfergirl

golfergirl said:


> I'd wash for u and kids - when he came to table with no dish or cutlery for him - I guess he would need a solution. Wash what you need - not a spoon more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol foil is a solution. On Desperate Housewive Lynette let a rat loose in the house which scared Tom into dishes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## themrs

golfergirl said:


> I'd wash for u and kids - when he came to table with no dish or cutlery for him - I guess he would need a solution. Wash what you need - not a spoon more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've done that. Like I said, he'd find something and MAKE a plate and eat with his hands before he'd wash a dish. I'm so serious.


----------



## turnera

nader said:


> Trenton:
> 
> We have a 3 month old. Both of us are working full time now.. wife works most saturdays and some sundays and I work weekdays, so I think we probably spend an equal time at home with him. Right now, watching Isaac is a highlight of my week. But it does get tiring and by the end of the day my brain is a little mushy. I usually try to use this time to get laundry done, but if not it is no big deal, I can just do it later.
> 
> When wife was on mat. leave and not working I used to get irritated her if something didn't get done at home, but I very quickly understood and let her know it. I think we have a really good thing going


 When I had DD20, I'd been working steadily for 14 years. I couldn't WAIT to have 3 whole months off! I had a whole list of things I was going to get done in those 3 months of maternity leave. I mean, seriously, look at all that free time!

When I went back to work I hadn't managed to complete a single thing on the list.


----------



## themrs

turnera said:


> Isn't this a moot subject anyway? He'll be back to work in a month. Then you have to go back to however you were getting things done before.


It's not a moot point for today. Yes in the future we will do things differently and in the past we've done things differently. But TODAY is what I'm talking about. And tomorrow. 

I am working on staying in the present. Not worrying about the future or dwelling in the past. It's not easy for me. It would be easy for me to just keep doing the dishes, but I'd be resentful of him NOW. I don't want to feel that way about my husband.

I'm just going to ask him to wash them on Sunday.


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## turnera

AvaTara539 said:


> If you know if you don't wash them they won't get washed and it will drive you mad, then wash them! You're only punishing yourself and being passive aggressive to your H in the process which damages your relationship (just as him not tending to your needs damages your relationship).
> 
> I wonder why you haven't responded to my idea of a marriage counselor yet. Are you opposed to it for some reason?


 A very wise person once told me: When it comes to the division of chores, choose responsibility for the chores you CARE about getting done. Ask your partner to do the same. Divide up the rest of them logically, according to free time each person has. That way, what matters to you, gets done in the manner you care about. And vice versa for your spouse. And everyone's happy.

My DH always does the carpet cleaning. He will take 3 hours to clean one room because he is meticulous. I would do it in 30 minutes. I could never make myself be that thorough, and he could never make himself settle for a 30-minute job; believe me, we tried - he came back after me and cleaned it again, lol.

I do the paperwork, bills, etc. I HAVE to have paperwork organized or I go into panic mode. He's filled an entire kitchen cupboard, a complete dresser, and a sidetable with his papers. He doesn't care (obviously).

Take responsibility for what matters to you; give up responsibility for the rest.


----------



## Mom6547

themrs said:


> It's not a moot point for today. Yes in the future we will do things differently and in the past we've done things differently. But TODAY is what I'm talking about. And tomorrow.


Wait a minute. You are not trying to solve a fundamental disparity in equity? You are just worried about the dishes for the next two days? 

Wash the dishes.


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## turnera

themrs said:


> I was afraid to let go of my job and my husband fell back on my like a crutch and never reached his potential because of it. I was controlling and expected him to step up even though I had already taken the role as provider. I resented him when he didn't do it even though all I had to do was step down and give him the opportunity to step up.


So you have been resenting your husband for five years?

Does he know?


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## themrs

Mom6547 said:


> Wait a minute. You are not trying to solve a fundamental disparity in equity? You are just worried about the dishes for the next two days?
> 
> Wash the dishes.


When I am working outside of the home, he does the chores inside the home and vice versa. We agreed on that. He just doesn't want to do chores everyday. 

If I keep washing the dishes I'm telling him that he doesn't have to live up to his end of the deal.


----------



## turnera

themrs said:


> Thanks. I guess he really doesn't like to wash dishes! LOL!
> 
> Like in the Breakup when Jennifer Aniston asks Vince Vaughn to wash the dishes - that was the scene at our house the other night.


I don't WANT you to wash dishes; I want you to WANT to wash dishes.

Why would I WANT to wash dishes?

Therein lies the quintessential issue between men and women, lol.


----------



## Mom6547

themrs said:


> When I am working outside of the home, he does the chores inside the home and vice versa. We agreed on that. He just doesn't want to do chores everyday.
> 
> If I keep washing the dishes I'm telling him that he doesn't have to live up to his end of the deal.


He doesn't. You are quitting your job and taking over.


----------



## themrs

turnera said:


> So you have been resenting your husband for five years?
> 
> Does he know?


Yes. We've talked about it at length. I resented him and didn't respect him.

I let go of the resentment when I decided to quit my job. I don't feel badly about him now and when I get angry at him now the past doesn't compound the issue. I really have let go of it. It feels liberating.


----------



## themrs

Mom6547 said:


> He doesn't. You are quitting your job and taking over.


His end of the deal we have NOW. I'm still working and he's still at home. When I stay home of course he won't have to wash dishes, but they have to get washed for the next month and it's his job to do them.


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## Mom6547

Here is the thing. You can't have it both ways. You can't have HIM responsible but with you in control of when, where and how. If HE is responsible, he suffers the consequences of not being responsible. (Same with kids.) If he is responsible, you do not do dishes until hell or high water. If that means you have to be drastic, be drastic.


----------



## Trenton

Mom6547 said:


> Ha! That is my pet peeve. The usefulness of gender stereotyping in solving problems is heavily over rated, in my opinion. What solutions does it offer HER that there is some double standard? She has a living breathing actual husband at home who needs a butt kicking.
> 
> It only helps in that when seeking support we feel as if we are understood. When in a relationship where we feel misunderstood by our partners, it's nice to know our feelings are not insane and do have some merit.
> 
> Well I certainly agree with that. Focusing on reestablishing "proper" gender roles strikes me as a lame solution as well. AFAIC there is nothing wrong with wanting your husband to be a capable, mature grown up. Yah I am nuts. But men CAN and DO do dishes all the time. Being male does not make you some how disabled in that department. My ADHD husband manages to be an equal partner in the housework just FINE. He has learned habits and routines.
> 
> It might be lame to you but Themrs has voiced it would be right for her and her husband, that the way things are for both of them now is not working. Men and Women can both do countless things but that's not really the point. The point is rather that one or the other is miserable about doing specific things and working to play on one another's strengths while balancing both partner's needs & wants works better than forcing someone to do something they don't get or want to get. In this case, gender roles didn't become apparent to me in their relationship at first, I was more confused by the gender stereotyping of the posters on this thread than Themrs and her husband. Although now it's clear that it also plays a part in their relationship.
> 
> See it doesn't have to be about gender roles. It CAN be about solutions. What if she WANTED to work? She should not simply because he is lame?
> 
> I agree it doesn't have to be and can be about solutions but feel that in this case it applies and in order to help Themrs receiving recognition that it's unfair is important to her. If she wanted to work and he also wanted to work (and is scheduled to go back to work soon) it would be a different story. They would have to find ways to re-balance the relationship. Doing dishes is not one of her husband's strengths but he has other strengths they could balance off of if that were the case.
> 
> 
> Unless it distracts one from the actual problem at hand and gives a shiny distraction to argue about. Now I am all for her being a sahm and taking on the housework if she WANTS to use that solution. But it is not the only solution. Her gender does not require it.
> 
> It is what she wants though so why should we pretend it's not? Different situations require different solutions. We agree on this. I only spoke up here in defense of Themrs because I feel she was being unjustly treated and being offered crappy advice. It was not to start a gender war debate or to distract from the actual problem.


----------



## themrs

Mom6547 said:


> Here is the thing. You can't have it both ways. You can't have HIM responsible but with you in control of when, where and how. If HE is responsible, he suffers the consequences of not being responsible. (Same with kids.) If he is responsible, you do not do dishes until hell or high water. If that means you have to be drastic, be drastic.


I don't want to control him. I don't care if he washes the dishes at 3am, as long as there is a clean plate for me to use when I need one. 

The only thing I can do is just not wash them. I am going to talk to him about it again, but if he doesn't respond to my request I'll just leave them there.


----------



## turnera

themrs said:


> Because I told him to clean the kitchen while I watch the kids. Once he got mad because I said the opposite. I told him I would clean the kitchen if he would please watch the baby. It was our now 5 year old son who had just learned to crawl then and was wanting me to pick him up. I asked him if he would please get the baby so I could clean. He said, "Why can't you do both?"
> 
> It wasn't until I let the baby crawl around while HE was trying to clean that he saw it was distracting and asked for the same thing. I said, "You can't do both?" He looked at me with such understanding. I'll never forget that.


Having 4 children within 7 years of marriage can be VERY hard on the marriage. When you were dating and marrying, you were all about each other. You had time for each other. Now you can barely keep your head above water, let alone remember that you love each other and want to spend time together. 

That is why one of the most important pieces of advice you can ever get - even with 4 kids - is to spend substantial time together each week to stay connected as adults who love each other. Those who don't are those whose wives divorce when the last kid leaves - because you have nothing in common any more.

It doesn't have to be hours together (though you should strive for that at least once a month - get a babysitter). You can have coffee together in the morning. Go for a walk. Sit on the porch at sunset. Play a boardgame or do a jigsaw puzzle for 30 minutes after the kids go to bed. Something!

You are both unhappy and frustrated with how life is right now. But you have the power to fix that. Make it more fulfilling.


----------



## turnera

Mom6547 said:


> It is not about being able to clean. It is about being held responsible. If she was ON him, SHE probably took responsibility.


 Exactly.

People who make good household runners do so because they WANT to see it done, not because they're forced. 

themrs, did your husband live alone before you two married?


----------



## Trenton

themrs said:


> When I am working outside of the home, he does the chores inside the home and vice versa. We agreed on that. He just doesn't want to do chores everyday.
> 
> If I keep washing the dishes I'm telling him that he doesn't have to live up to his end of the deal.


My advice to you here is also to wash the dishes but to barter for the dish washing. If you sit him down and tell him that your frustration with the dishes is single handedly driving you insane so both of you have to solve it and the offer a few solutions...

1. He does in fact decide to wash the dishes because he grasps that it's important to you.

2. You do the dishes but expect him to take the kids and let you do it in peace each night as well as have him take the kids in the evening so you can get rest. In this way, he can play off of his strengths to take a role in the current situation that is effective for you both.

If neither of these work, the only solution you have is not a solution. You will keep feeling over burdened and like crap and play games to try to get the solution you want. Before you know it, time will be up and he'll be back at work.

You love him, he loves you. I'm sure neither of you want the other to feel miserable. You've got to effectively communicate with him. It has to be important enough to you because in this case he seems pretty much clueless and confused by your behavior from his actions.


----------



## themrs

turnera said:


> You are both unhappy and frustrated with how life is right now. But you have the power to fix that. Make it more fulfilling.


You know what, this is one area in which we don't have a problem. We make time for each other. My husband LOVES to spend time with me. He looks forward to it every night. 

What he doesn't make time for is chores! LOL! 

Like last night, I came home and we had a great conversation while I cooked dinner. The dishes, of course, still weren't washed. I'm not even going to mention that the rest of the rooms in the house are a mess, I'm just focusing on the dishes because I need pots and pans to cook and it is a huge inconvenience to have to wash them out before I cook. Anyway, after dinner was done and the kids were in bed we watched a movie. He was excited to watch it with me and kept asking me to get off the computer so I could spend time with him. Then he fell asleep on the couch and I went to bed. I really do adore him.

That was our night. No big deal. I didn't feel frustrated with him at any point. OH yes I did.  We have twins like I mentioned before and he was playing a video game. The twins were crying and obviously hungry. I got two spoons and two jars of baby food and handed on to my husband and I took one. He says to me, "Why don't you just feed them one at a time?" He didn't want to have to feed one twin. He wanted me to feed them both. That annoyed me and I shot him a look. He ended up feeding one twin while I fed the other. Other than that, the night was normal.


----------



## themrs

turnera said:


> Exactly.
> 
> People who make good household runners do so because they WANT to see it done, not because they're forced.
> 
> themrs, did your husband live alone before you two married?


Yes he did.


----------



## turnera

Mom6547 said:


> Rude and condescending? I don't know. But I do agree that the way you asked him to do the dishes was passive aggressive and ineffective. Why not just state directly gee honey please do the dishes? Direct often works.


 When my DH is sitting on the couch watching tv and I'm cleaning or doing other things, I'll get the towels out of the dryer and dump them next to him. The first couple times, when he didn't touch them, I said "So you're not going to fold those towels while you're sitting there? I can dump them in your lap next time." 

lol

He got the idea. Add some humor and he won't feel so defensive.


----------



## turnera

themrs said:


> The dishes are piling up again. I refuse to wash them.
> 
> Today he got a babysitter so he is going to do some odd jobs in town to make some extra money. I know they won't get washed today because of that.


And they shouldn't.

Not until you two agree on how they'll get done, since BOTH of you are working.


----------



## themrs

Trenton said:


> *2. You do the dishes but expect him to take the kids and let you do it in peace each night as well as have him take the kids in the evening so you can get rest. In this way, he can play off of his strengths to take a role in the current situation that is effective for you both.*


That is something I haven't tried. I never even thought of that. I think it would work!

I could tell him that I will cook and clean when I get home IF he takes the kids to the park while I do it. That would be perfect! I honestly don't mind doing the chores, but doing them while watching someone play video games and having to be constantly inturrputed by toddlers and twins makes me frustrated. If I could do the chores in peace it would help me not feel resentment.


----------



## turnera

themrs said:


> He would say, "I'll wash the dishes when I want to wash them. Why does everything have to be on YOUR time? If you don't want to look at the dishes in the sink, wash them. I don't mind seeing dishes in the sink for days and I'll wash them when I feel like washing them."
> 
> This is what he's said to me in the past almost exactly.


 Then you have to accept that it's his right to feel that way. YOU care about the dishes. HE doesn't. So quit making dishes the issue and find a solution where he does something and you do something. Are you saying that since he stays at home he should do ALL the work? Did he agree to that when he lost his job? Was it an agreement, or just your assumption that he would do things the way YOU do?


----------



## turnera

themrs said:


> He washes his own clothes when they are dirty anyway. He wouldn't ask me to do that for him. If I didn't cook him a meal, he'd get up and make his own and he wouldn't even be offended. He does this many days anyway if I am cooking something and he wants something else. Those types of things aren't a big deal for him.
> 
> There isn't really anything that I could stop doing for him that he would just pick right up and do for himself. As a matter of fact, when all the dishes are dirty he will rip a piece of foil off and put his dinner on that. I'm not joking.


 Then what you are describing is an attempt at control. YOU want him to want to do the dishes (or insert any chore here). He won't. You can't make him think like you, feel like you, CARE like you. You just can't.

If you can't accept that, then you have bigger issues. Given the stress you guys are under, I consider this an awesome opportunity for the two of you to sit down and communicate about what you expect out of your marriage. Not just what YOU expect; what HE expects, too. 

If he doesn't care about clean dishes, it's pretty obvious you're never going to MAKE him care. Thus, dishes should be YOUR thing. If you're overwhelmed, find something else he may care about and ask him to take that on for the next month, until you quit your job and stay home.


----------



## Mom6547

Trenton said:


> It only helps in that when seeking support we feel as if we are understood. When in a relationship where we feel misunderstood by our partners, it's nice to know our feelings are not insane and do have some merit.


That makes no sense to me. Needing someone else to validate (make valid) our feelings is nothing short of immaturity and insecurity.


----------



## themrs

turnera said:


> Then you have to accept that it's his right to feel that way. YOU care about the dishes. HE doesn't. So quit making dishes the issue and find a solution where he does something and you do something. Are you saying that since he stays at home he should do ALL the work? Did he agree to that when he lost his job? Was it an agreement, or just your assumption that he would do things the way YOU do?


I accept that he feels that way, but he won't compromise. He won't agree to do the dishes on a consistent basis.

We agreed to whomever stays home does the housework since they are there and have many hours to do it. He falls back on his "You just want things done on YOUR timeline" defense whenever he knows he should have done something. Nobody FEELS like washing dishes, but you do it because it's necessary. 

All I'm looking for is for him to do what he said he would do and not make excuses when he doesn't.


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## Mom6547

Trenton said:


> It is what she wants though so why should we pretend it's not?


THAT is the operating factor not some magic gender roles in the sky.


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## turnera

themrs said:


> Yes. I told him. We actually talked about it last night and he agreed it was the best thing for both of us to do. He said he'd be happier if I stayed home. That was big. He hasn't always felt like that.


I think him staying home has had a profound effect on him in terms of understanding what's involved in running a house. That's good for you.


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## Mom6547

themrs said:


> I don't want to control him. I don't care if he washes the dishes at 3am, as long as there is a clean plate for me to use when I need one.


Unfortunately since we partner, we also feel the consequences of effective limit setting. You have to ride that ride until the effect is felt.


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## turnera

themrs said:


> I've done that. Like I said, he'd find something and MAKE a plate and eat with his hands before he'd wash a dish. I'm so serious.


 Which proves two things:

One, what YOU care about is not what HE cares about.

Two, you two have built up such a serious wall of resentment that you aren't going to diffuse it without a LOT of nonjudgmental, honest discussion.


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## themrs

Mom6547 said:


> That makes no sense to me. Needing someone else to validate (make valid) our feelings is nothing short of immaturity and insecurity.


I don't agree with that. It's not immature to want someone to understand you, even if they don't agree. People like to feel as if they aren't alone.


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## turnera

themrs said:


> When I am working outside of the home, he does the chores inside the home and vice versa. We agreed on that. He just doesn't want to do chores everyday.
> 
> If I keep washing the dishes I'm telling him that he doesn't have to live up to his end of the deal.


 He IS keeping up his end of the bargain.

Just not the way YOU want it done.


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## themrs

turnera said:


> Which proves two things:
> 
> One, what YOU care about is not what HE cares about.
> 
> Two, you two have built up such a serious wall of resentment that you aren't going to diffuse it without a LOT of nonjudgmental, honest discussion.


Actually, I'm tired of talking about it. I'm just going to DO things that help me let go of it. Telling him that I quit my job was the first step. Next will be to actually quit and let him be the provider. 

I think that will do more for us letting go of our resentments than talking.


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## themrs

turnera said:


> He IS keeping up his end of the bargain.
> 
> Just not the way YOU want it done.


How so? He's not doing the chores. Washing the dishes when he wants to do them, let's say maybe once a week, is living up to his end of the bargain? I don't think so. 

Maybe I should just go to work once a week. I'd still be going to work, just when I FEEL like it. Maybe I should just pay the bills I FEEL like paying.

It's a bogus arguement any way you spin it and it doesn't hold water.


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## turnera

themrs said:


> Like last night, I came home and we had a great conversation while I cooked dinner. The dishes, of course, still weren't washed.


"Honey, I love that we're getting to talk while I make dinner. But frankly, I can't enjoy it while you stand there doing nothing while I'm cooking and the dishes STILL aren't getting done. Please wash A, B, and C pots and wash 4 plates, 4 forks, and the baby cups while we're talking."

"No. I won't do it." 

"Then I can't continue to have this conversation with you while I'm working because it's causing serious stress to see you standing there when I can't even make dinner because you didn't make the pots available for me. Please go in the other room."



> after dinner was done and the kids were in bed we watched a movie. He was excited to watch it with me and kept asking me to get off the computer so I could spend time with him.


Did you get off the computer?


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## Mom6547

themrs said:


> I don't agree with that. It's not immature to want someone to understand you, even if they don't agree. People like to feel as if they aren't alone.


Understanding is fine. It is the validating, what did she say know it is not insane, that I think is not right. I think owning your feelings is PART of being a mature, secure person.


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## Syrum

themrs said:


> I don't agree with that. It's not immature to want someone to understand you, even if they don't agree. People like to feel as if they aren't alone.


And to me that is very reasonable.

I understand what the others are saying, and have given some practical solutions, however it's not Ok for any man or woman to say they will stay home with the children and then not put the amount of effort in required to at least keep up with the basics (washing dishes, general cleanliness). If a man came on and posted about how his wife stayed home yet didn't even watch the children while he came home and cooked and cleaned there would be an uproar.

Even if he doesn't care about cleanliness, he needs to care that his wife and children are having their needs met.


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## Trenton

Mom6547 said:


> That makes no sense to me. Needing someone else to validate (make valid) our feelings is nothing short of immaturity and insecurity.


Those we surround ourselves with do have an impact on how we feel and think. I would not want to be a fortress of maturity and self security. 

It reads as if you value self sufficiency and independence over human connection. I don't. Further, equating this difference in values to a lack of maturity and security with self is self indulgent on your part.


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## turnera

themrs said:


> Yes he did.


Then ask him what he was good at doing in his apartment. What did he always get done? 

THOSE are the things that matter more to him. Ask him to chip in on getting those things done.


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## themrs

turnera said:


> "Honey, I love that we're getting to talk while I make dinner. But frankly, I can't enjoy it while you stand there doing nothing while I'm cooking and the dishes STILL aren't getting done. Please wash A, B, and C pots and wash 4 plates, 4 forks, and the baby cups while we're talking."
> 
> "No. I won't do it."
> 
> "Then I can't continue to have this conversation with you while I'm working because it's causing serious stress to see you standing there when I can't even make dinner because you didn't make the pots available for me. Please go in the other room."
> 
> Did you get off the computer?


Yes.

I think he would wash the dishes if I asked him while I was doing something else or so I could cook. He would feel like he's helping me out/doing me a favor and not just doing chores.


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## Trenton

themrs said:


> That is something I haven't tried. I never even thought of that. I think it would work!
> 
> I could tell him that I will cook and clean when I get home IF he takes the kids to the park while I do it. That would be perfect! I honestly don't mind doing the chores, but doing them while watching someone play video games and having to be constantly inturrputed by toddlers and twins makes me frustrated. If I could do the chores in peace it would help me not feel resentment.


Great! I hope he responds positively. Be forward, direct and explain to him how important it would be for him to do this for you. He very well might have no idea that he's single handedly driving you insane with dishes. To me it seems like a no brainer but different people really do interpret behaviors differently.


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## themrs

Syrum said:


> And to me that is very reasonable.
> 
> I understand what the others are saying, and have given some practical solutions, however it's not Ok for any man or woman to say they will stay home with the children and then not put the amount of effort in required to at least keep up with the basics (washing dishes, general cleanliness). If a man came on and posted about how his wife stayed home yet didn't even watch the children while he came home and cooked and cleaned there would be an uproar.
> 
> Even if he doesn't care about cleanliness, he needs to care that his wife and children are having their needs met.


Thank you for understanding.

Sure I could just wash the dishes. It's really not that big a deal and I didn't expect the post to get this long. LOL! 

I just started to get defensive because I feel exactly what you are saying. If the shoe were on the other foot and I was a man, no one would be giving me the same advice I am getting. That just proves that there ARE gender roles and preconceived notions about what men and women should and shouldn't do. It is real.


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## turnera

themrs said:


> I accept that he feels that way, but he won't compromise. He won't agree to do the dishes on a consistent basis.


And he obviously NEVER WILL. It's just not his 'thing.' You trying to MAKE it be his thing will end in only one thing: you both frustrated and him digging in his heels to stop you controlling him.



> We agreed to whomever stays home does the housework since they are there and have many hours to do it. He falls back on his "You just want things done on YOUR timeline" defense whenever he knows he should have done something. Nobody FEELS like washing dishes, but you do it because it's necessary.
> 
> All I'm looking for is for him to do what he said he would do and not make excuses when he doesn't.


Again, this isn't about him doing dishes. It's about him doing dishes YOUR WAY.

I agree, try the barter thing, since neither of you is going to give up your 'side.'


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## turnera

themrs said:


> How so? He's not doing the chores. Washing the dishes when he wants to do them, let's say maybe once a week, is living up to his end of the bargain? I don't think so.
> 
> Maybe I should just go to work once a week. I'd still be going to work, just when I FEEL like it. Maybe I should just pay the bills I FEEL like paying.
> 
> It's a bogus arguement any way you spin it and it doesn't hold water.


 What chores is he not doing?


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## themrs

turnera said:


> Then ask him what he was good at doing in his apartment. What did he always get done?
> 
> THOSE are the things that matter more to him. Ask him to chip in on getting those things done.


He used to wash the dishes. He kept his apartment very clean, but he didn't have anyone else there to do it for him or the distractions of having children. He didn't have to manage his time. He could just do what he wanted to do when he wanted to do it. Plus, it's a lot easier cleaning up after yourself than it is an entire family. 

Every time I came to his apartment when we were dating it was spotless. He could start a cleaning business!


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## turnera

themrs said:


> Yes.
> 
> I think he would wash the dishes if I asked him while I was doing something else or so I could cook. He would feel like he's helping me out/doing me a favor and not just doing chores.


 Bingo!

He is not doing things the way YOU want them done because (1) he's shamed at losing his job, and (2) he feels you have backed him into a corner by the method in which you have gone about this, and he has no choice but to defend himself by refusing to do things the way you want them done.

It's all about the attitude.


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## turnera

themrs said:


> He used to wash the dishes. He kept his apartment very clean, but he didn't have anyone else there to do it for him or the distractions of having children. He didn't have to manage his time. He could just do what he wanted to do when he wanted to do it. Plus, it's a lot easier cleaning up after yourself than it is an entire family.
> 
> Every time I came to his apartment when we were dating it was spotless. He could start a cleaning business!


Which proves that he is choosing not to do those things either because he's overwhelmed (understandable with his background and 4 kids under the age of 6) or he feels attacked. It is what it is.


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## turnera

btw, choosing to play video games all day is a bigtime avoidance technique for people who previously were very effective, proactive people. I see it all the time, when someone is in a 'bad' place, like in losing a job, that they retreat into mindless entertainment to not have to deal with it. It's not a great coping mechanism, but it is one.


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## themrs

turnera said:


> Bingo!
> 
> He is not doing things the way YOU want them done because (1) he's shamed at losing his job, and (2) he feels you have backed him into a corner by the method in which you have gone about this, and he has no choice but to defend himself by refusing to do things the way you want them done.
> 
> It's all about the attitude.



In my defense, I wasn't attempting to control the way in which he washed dishes. I just can't do other things like cook and feed the children without clean dishes and he agreed to do them. I didn't back him into a corner. He agreed to it. 

But like I said, if it makes him feel better to feel like he's helping me out (which is ridiculous because I'm actually helping HIM out by cooking because I'm the one who is working outside the home) then that is what I have to do. I'm just venting that I don't like that it comes to this WHILE I'm working outside the home. I could understand it fully if I were currently a SAHM. It feel stupid to have to resort to the same tactics I would if I weren't a working mom, but such is life.


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## Mom6547

turnera said:


> Bingo!
> 
> He is not doing things the way YOU want them done because (1) he's shamed at losing his job, and (2) he feels you have backed him into a corner by the method in which you have gone about this, and he has no choice but to defend himself by refusing to do things the way you want them done.
> 
> It's all about the attitude.


:iagree:


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## turnera

themrs said:


> In my defense, I wasn't attempting to control the way in which he washed dishes.


What have the last 13 pages been about, but that you wanted them washed when YOU wanted them washed? I said nothing about the 'quality' of the dishwashing; you're attempting to control how he approaches the business of washing dishes.

Note that I'm not disagreeing that he should be doing them. Believe me, I agree he should. I'm just saying that you can resent him all you want, and it's not going to address WHY he doesn't do them. 



> I didn't back him into a corner. He agreed to it.


It's not your place to decide for him how he feels. If he feels backed into a corner, it would behoove you to understand why. Just as, if he wanted to make you happier, it would behoove him to take the time to understand how YOU felt about him making you go to work or how you felt about him not finishing his RN exams.



> But like I said, if it makes him feel better to feel like he's helping me out (which is ridiculous because I'm actually helping HIM out by cooking because I'm the one who is working outside the home) then that is what I have to do. I'm just venting that I don't like that it comes to this WHILE I'm working outside the home. I could understand it fully if I were currently a SAHM. It feel stupid to have to resort to the same tactics I would if I weren't a working mom, but such is life.


 Welcome to adulthood and marriage and Men Are From Mars, lol.


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## heartbroken1957

Mom6547 said:


> I actually take a bit of offense to that. My husband is terrific at housework. (It was not always so.) Multitasking is not required for successful at whatever one sets oneself out to do. They can figure techniques to do it their own way. If we assume that they are dumb, act like they are dumb, they will act dumb.


Mom I'm sorry about that post. I hadn't seen the turn the thread had taken until It posted. I was responding to a post much farther back and as soon as I seen my post end up at the tail, I knew I had stepped over the bounds. Unfortunately you had already seen it before I could remove it. 
Again my appoligies, my fault.

Heartbroken1957


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## Mrs.G

Syrum said:


> I'm with Trenton on this one.
> Me too!
> 
> I don't think anybody should be sitting down relaxing all the time while there is still a lot of work to be done. That is unfair.
> |Of course it is unfair! One hand washes the other in a good marriage. You think that I could sit on my botty when I wasn't working? No friggin way! My husband would cuss me into next week if I told him to buy paper plates-because I was too lazy to wash the dishes. What planet does the OP's hubby live on??
> 
> My fiance has cooked a lot lately, so I have been doing all the dishes. That is fair. I concur.
> 
> I am sure if I was home all day (like I am right now) and he was at work and had to come and do everything while I sat my @ss he wouldn't be pleased.
> 
> I am astounded that some people think she should just suck it up, and even joke about divorce. It's such a huge double standard, a man cares for his own children (as he should) and we want to give him a nobel prize.Some things never change. Women still do the lion's share of the housework and childrearing.:bsflag:


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## Mom6547

heartbroken1957 said:


> Mom I'm sorry about that post. I hadn't seen the turn the thread had taken until It posted. I was responding to a post much farther back and as soon as I seen my post end up at the tail, I knew I had stepped over the bounds. Unfortunately you had already seen it before I could remove it.
> Again my appoligies, my fault.
> 
> Heartbroken1957


Oh geez. My comment about being offended was totally tongue in cheek. I hope you don't feel bad!


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## MGirl

Conrad said:


> In the Men's Clubhouse, how the dishwasher is loaded STARTS conflict.
> 
> Be careful.


Haha! I completely missed this comment. 

Nah, I don't sweat the small stuff. I really don't.

One of the biggest reasons my husband said he married me was because I don't nag or nitpick. 

I choose my battles very carefully and they are few and far between. Technique in loading the dishwasher would never be one of them.


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## themrs

He washed the dishes on Sunday. I didn't ask him, he just did it. 

I got up on Sunday morning and told him that I'd be sleeping in. That's all I said. When I left my bedroom at around 12pm, the kitchen was clean and so was the living room. 

So, there you go. I was so rested that I gave him a bj and rode him until the sun came up to show my appreciation!


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## turnera

Great positive reinforcement!


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