# Guys, what are your thoughts about MGTOW?



## Garro

Past some odd years there has been a movement by men called MGTOW; abbreviated from Men Going Their Own Way. Basically men that are disillusioned with women for whatever reasons and decide to remain life-long bachelors.

Obviously by the nature of this site it's doubtful there are any MGTOWs here, but for those that know of it how do you feel about MGTOW movement?

Here are a few videos I personally found to speak a lot of truth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Noa60u1g30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25yzRVL_FyI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGrrnj1EmcE


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## Ynot

I can't speak specifically of the MGTOW movement. But I think in general "movements" like this have been going on throughout history. Historians and social scientists tend to view history and society in terms of broad social movements. I think the MGTOW movement is probably just a small subset of a larger social movement of men's rights. At the present the whole men's right movement is still very much in its infancy and is in many ways a counter-reaction to the whole women's right movement, which was it self just a reaction to the patriarchal societal structure that was the norm in western society for most of history.
The MGTOW movement being noticed today is probably very much inspired by the changing and blurring of gender roles, the steady erosion of the institution of marriage due to divorce and the loosening of social standards towards co-habitation and out of wed lock pregnancy.
The fact of the matter is that marriage, especially the view held by most of society, is a throw back to an earlier age when nuclear families were a religious, societal and to a large degree economic necessity if one desired to have children. The concept of "til death do us part" is based on a much shorter life expectancy than what modern society now enjoys. And many of the legal constrictions that come with marriage are also throw backs to an earlier time. 
It is no wonder that men of younger generations may be going their own way and becoming disillusioned with the opposite sex and society's expectations of their interactions with them. Women are now more independent, have greater resources available to them and have greater power (all relative to previous generations). This new paradigm has turned the traditional gender roles on its head. Some men probably don't feel as though it is worth it. Why bother when the societal expectations of relationships is outweighed by that same's society's permissiveness?


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## anchorwatch

I can say, the more I listened to the videos, the more I was convinced they were produced by men afraid of women. There are all kinds of propaganda in our societies that play to people's fear. Real men and women don't blame entire genders for their insecurities or problems. Real men and women don't gender bash either. That's coming from someone who's not ashamed of being a full grown adult male who actually enjoys the company of a woman. That's my $.02...


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## Forest

They should all be rounded up and put in some sort of camp?


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## Anon Pink

Forest said:


> They should all be rounded up and put in some sort of camp?


This feminist promises to fight to the death to prevent the rounding up and confinement of men.

This feminist rather likes men! >


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## Runs like Dog

when women treat men this way they are empowered. the other way around it's a cautionary tale or something to be mocked. either way, so what? maybe it's a WOPR Scenario "The only winning move is not to play"


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## badsanta

Sorry, I thought this was the *M*en that *G*et *T*he *O*ther *W*ives thread!










I guess in the world of mathematics, there is another side of the equation somewhere. While I feel sorry for the MGTOW, I guess they do have to find a way to make the best of it.


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## EleGirl

Apparently the movement is failing since most men and women marry at some point in their lifetime.

It does seem to be true that both young men and young women are waiting to 25 to 30 to get married. Mostly they are getting their lives together... college, career.. then get married. Makes good sense to me. It's what my son is doing. He's waiting until he finishes his Phd.


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## sapientia

Garro said:


> Past some odd years there has been a movement by men called MGTOW; abbreviated from Men Going Their Own Way. Basically men that are disillusioned with women for whatever reasons and decide to remain life-long bachelors.


Go for it. It's part of growing up. Most young people, especially college grads, start out liberal-social in their thinking and become increasingly conservative in their attitudes.

Point is, life is long and whatever you think you know now... you probably don't know as much as you think.


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## Faithful Wife

Here's my favorite one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvC73cWZElw

Sandman reads a question sent in by a reader, which was all about how shocked he is that women talk about penis size and share and compare notes about them. How dare they!!?? Then he goes on to share his paranoid delusional conspiracy theory, which is that the government is controlling us with porn...and that eventually the goal is to create a "caste system based on male member size", and that no man who doesn't have a huge c*ck will be "allowed" to have sex.

Then Sandman responds with his own thoughts about women "having no shame" when sharing information about huge c*cks, and again, how dare they, those wh*res? And about how women shamelessly wish for a unicorn of a man who is both a shower and a grower at the same time. Then he discusses how he thinks young men getting addicted to internet porn is a good thing, because that will make them unable to perform with real women which will SAVE THEM from some evil woman forcing him into marriage and thereby corrupting him with their gyno-centric agenda.



To any man who thinks like this, by all means, *PLEASE* _go your own way._


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## anonmd

Here I thought MGTOW was an aviation term. Maximum Gross Take Off Weight.


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## Truthseeker1

EleGirl said:


> Apparently the movement is failing since most men and women marry at some point in their lifetime.
> 
> It does seem to be true that both young men and young women are waiting to 25 to 30 to get married. Mostly they are getting their lives together... college, career.. then get married. Makes good sense to me. It's what my son is doing. He's waiting until he finishes his Phd.


No movement is keeping men from women or women from men...and any such "leaders" attempting that are looking to make money off of other peoples pain or warped perspectives...


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## Thundarr

Garro said:


> Past some odd years there has been a movement by men called MGTOW; abbreviated from Men Going Their Own Way. Basically men that are disillusioned with women for whatever reasons and decide to remain life-long bachelors.
> 
> Obviously by the nature of this site it's doubtful there are any MGTOWs here, but for those that know of it how do you feel about MGTOW movement?
> 
> Here are a few videos I personally found to speak a lot of truth:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Noa60u1g30
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25yzRVL_FyI
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGrrnj1EmcE


For a guy like me (and many others) who started out young with nice guy tendencies, MGTOW is the missing piece of the puzzle. After my first marriage I was determined to go my own way. But that's when someone too good to be true (TGTBT) comes along. The thing is that TGTBT person wouldn't have liked us before we decided we didn't need or want anyone else. MGTOW is what helped us set boundaries and live by principles.


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## Ynot

I did visit the MGTOW web site. There are some good ideas presented there about the need for men to be men and to be themselves without catering to any one else's expectations of who they should be. But reading some of the comments in the forums it appears that some of these guys have missed the point. Of course you see that on practically every forum including this one. There a few here who imagine the 180 is about punishing the SO or getting them back, completely missing the point that it is really about just focusing on them selves.


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## Fozzy

Whether you get married or decide to stay a bachelor seems like a pretty individual, personal choice about how you spend your life. Creating a "movement" to try to convince people that your way is best seems kind of....sad. 

Nothing wrong with making the decision to "go your own way", but if you're really going your own way, why are you on Youtube asking other guys to come along also?


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## tom67

The only thing I would tell a young man today is to be informed and watch the movie divorcecorp.
I will say in general, marriage does not benefit males in the U.S. and most western countries.
Stories from India are even worse.
Again of course their are exceptions.


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## Fozzy

Faithful Wife said:


> Here's my favorite one:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvC73cWZElw
> 
> Sandman reads a question sent in by a reader, which was all about how shocked he is that women talk about penis size and share and compare notes about them. How dare they!!?? Then he goes on to share his paranoid delusional conspiracy theory, which is that the government is controlling us with porn...and that eventually the goal is to create a "caste system based on male member size", and that no man who doesn't have a huge c*ck will be "allowed" to have sex.
> 
> Then Sandman responds with his own thoughts about women "having no shame" when sharing information about huge c*cks, and again, how dare they, those wh*res? And about how women shamelessly wish for a unicorn of a man who is both a shower and a grower at the same time. Then he discusses how he thinks young men getting addicted to internet porn is a good thing, because that will make them unable to perform with real women which will SAVE THEM from some evil woman forcing him into marriage and thereby corrupting him with their gyno-centric agenda.
> 
> 
> 
> To any man who thinks like this, by all means, *PLEASE* _go your own way._


I hadn't even heard the term MGTOW until a few months ago. Someone on TAM posted about it so I did a google search and Sandman was the first thing I watched about it. Almost choked and died from laughing so hard about "gyno-centrism".


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## Faithful Wife

Fozzy said:


> I hadn't even heard the term MGTOW until a few months ago. Someone on TAM posted about it so I did a google search and Sandman was the first thing I watched about it. Almost choked and died from laughing so hard about "gyno-centrism".


And the fact is, if these men had been "lucky in love", they would not be advocating any such nonsense as going their own way. They would be happily joining in the lovely sex and commitment rituals of their society and would be proudly proclaiming how much they love women and love their lives.

But being bitter about not having been "lucky in love" drives them into a bitter "fine I'm taking my ball and going home" state...which just makes them even more unattractive to females.

But perhaps nature is doing us females a favor with these fellows.


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## Fozzy

Faithful Wife said:


> And the fact is, if these men had been "lucky in love", they would not be advocating any such nonsense as going their own way. They would be happily joining in the lovely sex and commitment rituals of their society and would be proudly proclaiming how much they love women and love their lives.
> 
> But being bitter about not having been "lucky in love" drives them into a bitter "fine I'm taking my ball and going home" state...which just makes them even more unattractive to females.
> 
> But perhaps nature is doing us females a favor with these fellows.


I work with some EXTREMELY bitter and jaded women who have some pretty odd notions of men. They could probably rival Sandman in the "batsh!t" category. And you're right, most of it stems from failed relationships.

I wonder why they don't take to Youtube and start a movement as well.


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## Faithful Wife

Fozzy said:


> I work with some EXTREMELY bitter and jaded women who have some pretty odd notions of men. They could probably rival Sandman in the "batsh!t" category. And you're right, most of it stems from failed relationships.
> 
> I wonder why they don't take to Youtube and start a movement as well.


I've definitely known some man hating jilted women. I don't get too close to them, don't have any as friends. I think some of them do end up making blogs and other types of speaking out. It is just that most women don't follow them or listen to them, because they are a drag.


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## Married but Happy

I've heard that a happy, single man is an anomaly in the space time continuum. By analogy to a black hole, this sucks in single women in an attempt to neutralize the singularity, thereby creating an unhappy, married man and saving the universe.


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## anchorwatch

Luck has little to do with it. Just saying


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## Mr. Nail

Anon Pink said:


> This feminist promises to fight to the death to prevent the rounding up and confinement of men.
> 
> This feminist rather likes men! >


Sorry Pink,

I already signed up for man interment camp. When they threw in 4 wheel drive, it was the best offer I've ever had from women. 

Going my way.


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## anchorwatch

*Oh, I remember those guys. I think they had a different name back then, but were about the same age.*


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## Youngster

MGTOW is a radical bunch of nuts just like the ultra-feminists. Having said that, there is some truth in the what they present regarding men and marriage.


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## naiveonedave

Youngster said:


> MGTOW is a radical bunch of nuts just like the ultra-feminists. Having said that, there is some truth in the what they present regarding men and marriage.


I agree, though I suspect some of the 'radicals' are just men who got totally screwed in D. 

Based on stories that I know are true, if I was one of the men that got screwed that bad, I would probably turn into a radical myself...


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## jorgegene

Fozzy said:


> Whether you get married or decide to stay a bachelor seems like a pretty individual, personal choice about how you spend your life. Creating a "movement" to try to convince people that your way is best seems kind of....sad.
> 
> Nothing wrong with making the decision to "go your own way", but if you're really going your own way, why are you on Youtube asking other guys to come along also?


excellent!

after my youth and a couple of relationships i turned bachelor for some 20 years. i was happy. i had decided that relationships were too much trouble and too complicated. and also wouldn't let me be me. that was my decision and had NOTHING to do with being turned off by women or some ridiculous movement.

i WAS a happy person. it was only after some 20 years i rediscovered women. i still believe relationships are more often than not a lot of trouble and make life very complicated. the difference is now i think it is worth it. especially with the right person.
that's the hard part.


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## jorgegene

finding the right person


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## Lone Shadow

I'm going my own way. 

I've been screwed over horredously by my Can't be Ex Fast Enough Wife, and the courts. 

I enjoy porn. Some of it. 

But I'm too addicted to women to give them up and run off to an internment camp.

So if my way and her way happen to be the same way, well then, sexy funtimes for all!


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## JoeHenderson

EleGirl said:


> Apparently the movement is failing since most men and women marry at some point in their lifetime.
> 
> It does seem to be true that both young men and young women are waiting to 25 to 30 to get married. Mostly they are getting their lives together... college, career.. then get married. Makes good sense to me. It's what my son is doing. He's waiting until he finishes his Phd.


I bet you're a proud mama.


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## Runs like Dog

you are ready to leave the temple to avenge the death of your parents.


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## sapientia

Married but Happy said:


> I've heard that a happy, single man is an anomaly in the space time continuum. By analogy to a black hole, this sucks in single women in an attempt to neutralize the singularity, thereby creating an unhappy, married man and saving the universe.


I've come to the conclusion that men and women are a unique class of fermion, some "more fermion" than others. Pauli exclusion principal applies. This is the simplest explanation.


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## Married but Happy

sapientia said:


> I've come to the conclusion that men and women are a unique class of fermion, some "more fermion" than others. Pauli exclusion principal applies. This is the simplest explanation.


Perhaps you're right that it's a quantum phenomenon. Like Schrödinger's cat, we can imagine the single man un/happily going his own way, until a woman observes him and collapses his wave function to misery here and now. >


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## tom67

This guy is awesome
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW_u8Tn70fk


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## sapientia

Married but Happy said:


> Perhaps you're right that it's a quantum phenomenon. Like Schrödinger's cat, we can imagine the single man un/happily going his own way, until a woman observes him and collapses his wave function to misery here and now. >


LOL, or perhaps we're just overthinking this and its simple destructive interference. In my experience, this can originate from either (usually both) sex.


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## tech-novelist

I'm happily married but if my wife ever died or left me, I doubt I would marry again. It's too risky.


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## Married but Happy

sapientia said:


> LOL, or perhaps we're just overthinking this and its simple destructive interference. In my experience, this can originate from either (usually both) sex.


There may be a research paper in this, reproducing the double slit experiment with men as photons.


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## McDean

Honestly, can't get behind this movement. While my greatest pain has been experienced in my relationships with women, my greatest joys have as well. I have loved women since before I knew what to do with them....no amount of pain or failure will change that, the only thing it would change is my decision to remarry or not should my current one fail...I have every confidence I would be chasing women again, as much as I did before being married, if this one ends.....


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## tech-novelist

McDean said:


> Honestly, can't get behind this movement. While my greatest pain has been experienced in my relationships with women, my greatest joys have as well. I have loved women since before I knew what to do with them....no amount of pain or failure will change that, the only thing it would change is my decision to remarry or not should my current one fail...I have every confidence I would be chasing women again, as much as I did before being married, if this one ends.....


My understanding of MGTOW is not that it requires becoming celibate, but rather that it requires remaining true to one's own vision of life, rather than subordinating oneself to a woman's.

But I'm not an expert on this topic, so I could be wrong.


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## sapientia

Married but Happy said:


> There may be a research paper in this, reproducing the double slit experiment with men as photons.


Maybe I'm just crude-minded but this made me snort my morning coffee. LOL!


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## tom67

technovelist said:


> My understanding of MGTOW is not that it requires becoming celibate, but rather that it requires remaining true to one's own vision of life, rather than subordinating oneself to a woman's.
> 
> But I'm not an expert on this topic, so I could be wrong.


:iagree::iagree:
You can date all you want and be a MGTOW just do it with eyes wide open.


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## Cletus

Married but Happy said:


> There may be a research paper in this, reproducing the double slit experiment with men as photons.


:surprise: Did you say that with your outside voice?


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## jb02157

I think alot of that movement has to do with the unfair treatment of men in divorces


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## Marduk

I don't really get it.

I mean, maybe I like chicks and long term relationships too much.

If you want to check out because divorce is a raw deal for husbands, then instead of letting the law invoke fear, work to change the law.

If you want to work against the vision of "rape culture" then do so directly instead of running away from women.

The vast majority of women are actually pretty reasonable people. Fearing them makes no sense.

And laws and government are the way they are because of people. If you want to make a change, make a change by having your voice heard, not by checking out.


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## Mr. Nail

Boycott is a valid and effective form of social protest.


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## Marduk

Mr. Nail said:


> Boycott is a valid and effective form of social protest.


Sure.

But what does it change?

And any boycott that I can think of that relys on men not ****ing women... well, I just don't see that playing out well.


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## ocotillo

I have several friends who probably fall into this boat, but for them (At least) it has nothing to do with "Men's rights." They've simply decided that dating and relationships are more trouble than they're worth and would rather play with their toys. (To put it bluntly.)

All of these men are gifted mentally, but their gifts lie along the lines of things rather than people, so maybe that's a big part of it.


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## ConanHub

Barely even heard of the movement and could probably not care less.

I think each man should decide for himself what he wants and make it happen.

That includes finding a good match for a mate or not.

I do believe many men have bought a load of crap about life and how they have been brought up can be a huge culprit in their ignorance.

I think blaming females in general isn't accurate to begin with and doesn't strike me as at all masculine anyway.

Developing strength is a far better course of action than withdrawal and blaming women.

Are many women behaving like boobs?

Yup.

So are many men. It is no excuse to blame everything on the opposite sex.

The laws are tipped in a woman's favor for the most part.

Men need to understand this and prepare wisely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk

I think this kind of thing might be along millennial lines as well. 

I have family members in their early 20s who just refuse to buy into the whole get married buy a house have kids deal. 

Only work when they have to, rent an apartment downtown so they don't need a car, have hookups when they need to scratch that itch, and otherwise just hang out. 

My cousin for example is convinced that marriage is an impossible deal that only funds lawyers and screws up kids. And why by a house in an overly inflated market because of boomers that's about to crash again. And why have a career when people are just numbers. 

I'm not saying it's right, or I agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr. Nail

Economically, boycott returns power to the consumer. MGTOW refuses to provide a service (prom dates and big weddings). This establishes power, without which it is impossible to negotiate. 

The first level of boycott should be the refusal to do favors for attractive women.


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## ConanHub

badsanta said:


> Sorry, I thought this was the *M*en that *G*et *T*he *O*ther *W*ives thread!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess in the world of mathematics, there is another side of the equation somewhere. While I feel sorry for the MGTOW, I guess they do have to find a way to make the best of it.


Totally forgot that just leaves more women for me and my sons!>
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk

Mr. Nail said:


> Economically, boycott returns power to the consumer. MGTOW refuses to provide a service (prom dates and big weddings). This establishes power, without which it is impossible to negotiate.
> 
> The first level of boycott should be the refusal to do favors for attractive women.


If this is actually a widespread thing, then my sons are going to have a helluva lotta fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

marduk said:


> If this is actually a widespread thing, then my sons are going to have a helluva lotta fun.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do see a trend where boys refuse to become men. My youngest has easily capitalized on this and has had his pick.

He doesn't have a lot of competition among his peers.

My oldest just knows he isn't ready and is holding off on relationships until he is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

marduk said:


> If this is actually a widespread thing, then my sons are going to have a helluva lotta fun.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here this is the problems for young men in college and this goofball representative.

It's a short vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Ljy6HxzOs

This is out of control.


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## Mr. Nail

I don't think there is a lot of danger of a widespread movement. A 2% boycott is pretty ineffective. My own son shot his entire savings on a homecoming date for a Girl who isn't romantically interested in him. 

But I have a hard line in the sand about doing favors for fitness instructors.


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## Fozzy

marduk said:


> I think this kind of thing might be along millennial lines as well.
> 
> I have family members in their early 20s who just refuse to buy into the whole get married buy a house have kids deal.
> 
> Only work when they have to, rent an apartment downtown so they don't need a car, have hookups when they need to scratch that itch, and otherwise just hang out.
> 
> My cousin for example is convinced that marriage is an impossible deal that only funds lawyers and screws up kids. And why by a house in an overly inflated market because of boomers that's about to crash again. And why have a career when people are just numbers.
> 
> I'm not saying it's right, or I agree.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And some day they'll look in the mirror and realize they're getting a little long in the tooth and it's just not as much fun anymore. And that's when the "Oh Sh*t" moment happens.


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## Anon1111

Whenever I see "MGTOW" I think of how it would be pronounced ("Mig- TOW!"), then I think of "Taa-DOW!" as in

'We'd like to welcome y'all to the fabulous Carolina West
I own this motherf-cker and my name is Taa-Dow'


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## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> I don't really get it.
> 
> I mean, maybe I like chicks and long term relationships too much.
> 
> If you want to check out because divorce is a raw deal for husbands, then instead of letting the law invoke fear, work to change the law.
> 
> If you want to work against the vision of "rape culture" then do so directly instead of running away from women.
> 
> The vast majority of women are actually pretty reasonable people. Fearing them makes no sense.
> 
> And laws and government are the way they are because of people. If you want to make a change, make a change by having your voice heard, not by checking out.


:x:x:x


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## Faithful Wife

Anon1111 said:


> Whenever I see "MGTOW" I think of how it would be pronounced ("Mig- TOW!"), then I think of "Taa-DOW!" as in
> 
> 'We'd like to welcome y'all to the fabulous Carolina West
> I own this motherf-cker and my name is Taa-Dow'


That's funny. It always makes me think of Kung POW!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXrAYdSeWY8


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## Faithful Wife

ConanHub said:


> Are many women behaving like boobs?
> 
> Yup.


Can you clarify what "behaving like boobs" means?


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## Anon Pink

Mr. Nail said:


> Economically, boycott returns power to the consumer. MGTOW refuses to provide a service (prom dates and big weddings). This establishes power, without which it is impossible to negotiate.
> 
> *The first level of boycott should be the refusal to do favors for attractive women*.



Don't think your boycott is working too well. Had a visit to Home Depot recently. I had help in every aisle I stopped in, plus offers to lift some heavy stuff into my cart. I think I'll shop there weekly.


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## Faithful Wife

Anon Pink said:


> Don't think your boycott is working too well. Had a visit to Home Depot recently. I had help in every aisle I stopped in, plus offers to lift some heavy stuff into my cart. I think I'll shop there weekly.


Yeah I was going to say....I literally never ask strange men to help me with anything. But I get offers for help everywhere I go. It isn't us women batting our eyes, trying to get out of hard work by enslaving gullible men. It is men wanting an excuse to be near us, talk to us, or put us in their debt somehow.


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## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Can you clarify what "behaving like boobs" means?


Beautiful and bouncy. Generally nice to be around. Nurturing.

Irritated and pointy when cold.

You know.

Boobs.


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## tech-novelist

marduk said:


> I don't really get it.
> 
> I mean, maybe I like chicks and long term relationships too much.
> 
> If you want to check out because divorce is a raw deal for husbands, then instead of letting the law invoke fear, work to change the law.
> 
> If you want to work against the vision of "rape culture" then do so directly instead of running away from women.
> 
> The vast majority of women are actually pretty reasonable people. Fearing them makes no sense.
> 
> And laws and government are the way they are because of people. If you want to make a change, make a change by having your voice heard, not by checking out.


And when you get ground up in the gears, at least you will have the satisfaction of knowing you "did the right thing"?

No, thanks. I do whatever I can to stay out of situations where the force of government is going to come down on me. If that makes me chicken, then so be it: I prefer to pick battles where I have more than an infinitesimal chance of victory.


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## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Yeah I was going to say....I literally never ask strange men to help me with anything. But I get offers for help everywhere I go. It isn't us women batting our eyes, trying to get out of hard work by enslaving gullible men. It is men wanting an excuse to be near us, talk to us, or put us in their debt somehow.


It's the yoga pants.


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## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> Beautiful and bouncy. Generally nice to be around. Nurturing.
> 
> Irritated and pointy when cold.
> 
> You know.
> 
> Boobs.


I still don't get it. How do we "act like" boobs? Conan obviously meant something other than your description, but thanks for it anyway. Cute.


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## tech-novelist

marduk said:


> Sure.
> 
> But what does it change?
> 
> And any boycott that I can think of that relys on men not ****ing women... well, I just don't see that playing out well.


I don't think you understand. It involves men not *marrying* women.


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## Anon Pink

tom67 said:


> Here this is the problems for young men in college and this goofball representative.
> 
> It's a short vid.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Ljy6HxzOs
> 
> This is out of control.


Where do you dig up these "videos?" This one is just a sound track of some dude whining about the lack of due process with regard to AC. The dude can't even speak without droning on and on and on... 3 minutes felt like two hours.

There's a special kind of victim mentality that goes into people who spout off on YouTube like this.

Note to self: do not bother to click on the YouTube links Tom posts unless he gives a clear synopsis.


----------



## MJJEAN

jb02157 said:


> I think alot of that movement has to do with the unfair treatment of men in divorces


Fact is, women typically give up or delay their careers in order to fulfill duties as wives and mothers. Women do the lions share of the housework and child care. Women also tend to handle the misc. details like paperwork, researching general purchases, making medical appointments, tracking and planning for events and social occasions, etc.

This means a married woman with children will usually make less over the long term than her male counterpart. Meanwhile, her husband is enjoying all of the benefits of being able to have a family and a support person to provide services in order to free him up to increase his earning power.

So, I think it's only fair that the wife be compensated should the marriage fail.

Usually, the house is either sold and the couple split the equity or one buys the other out. Both spouses contributed to the home, so I think that's completely fair.

In most states, alimony is limited depending on how long the couple was married and their individual earning abilities. Depending on circumstances, there may be zero alimony awarded to anyone.

Child support is the one I hear men complain about the most. Sorry, fellas, but child support is only right. Kids are expensive and cost a lot of money to raise. Both parents need to provide financial support based on their means. That has nothing to do with divorce as child support laws are the same regardless of the marital status of the parents.




Mr. Nail said:


> Economically, boycott returns power to the consumer. MGTOW refuses to provide a service (prom dates and big weddings). This establishes power, without which it is impossible to negotiate.
> 
> The first level of boycott should be the refusal to do favors for attractive women.


I read that and thought "Some guy out there is hearing about this movement and saying "Awesome! More women for me!!"



ConanHub said:


> Totally forgot that just leaves more women for me and my sons!>
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And there he is!




marduk said:


> I think this kind of thing might be along millennial lines as well.
> 
> I have family members in their early 20s who just refuse to buy into the whole get married buy a house have kids deal.
> 
> Only work when they have to, rent an apartment downtown so they don't need a car, have hookups when they need to scratch that itch, and otherwise just hang out.
> 
> My cousin for example is convinced that marriage is an impossible deal that only funds lawyers and screws up kids. And why by a house in an overly inflated market because of boomers that's about to crash again. And why have a career when people are just numbers.
> 
> I'm not saying it's right, or I agree.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it's a lack of maturity. Guys who don't wanna settle down and be responsible for a wife and kids and bills. They want to do the minimum required of an adult and coast.

What you described above is just about how we were back when we were teenagers, but not into our 20's. I think the younger crowd has been PC, everybody gets a trophy, helicopter parented to the point where they mature slower.




ConanHub said:


> I do see a trend where boys refuse to become men. My youngest has easily capitalized on this and has had his pick.
> 
> He doesn't have a lot of competition among his peers.
> 
> My oldest just knows he isn't ready and is holding off on relationships until he is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your youngest and my youngest, too. He's reasonably good looking, smart, sense of humor, doesn't smell funny (very often) and is open to future marriage and kids. Apparently, the last bit is some kind of aphrodisiac to young ladies.


----------



## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> It's the yoga pants.


I could be wearing a burlap sack and still have men flying across Home Depot to "help" me with things. They want to be near you, they want your appreciation, they want to feel that amazing rush that comes from a woman's attention on them.


----------



## MJJEAN

marduk said:


> Beautiful and bouncy. Generally nice to be around. Nurturing.
> 
> Irritated and pointy when cold.
> 
> You know.
> 
> Boobs.


Thank you. You just made me appreciate my boobs. I've been taking them for granted.


----------



## Marduk

technovelist said:


> And when you get ground up in the gears, at least you will have the satisfaction of knowing you "did the right thing"?
> 
> No, thanks. I do whatever I can to stay out of situations where the force of government is going to come down on me. If that makes me chicken, then so be it: I prefer to pick battles where I have more than an infinitesimal chance of victory.


Meh.

I've been divorced and lost everything but my clothes and my playstation. And then built everything and dated around and then got married and had kids and almost lost everything again. A few times now.

If you're talking about money, well there's oceans of that to be made if a guy wants to make it. The minute my kids existed, that didn't matter to me, I'd give my wife half or more just to make sure they were taken care of and happy.

If you're talking about being falsely accused of rape... only 5% of actual rape cases actually lead to a conviction according to this: https://rainn.org/statistics.

So it's gotta be less likely for those falsely accused. And even less likely that you'd be accused at all. Sure, it's a risk, but you're actually more likley to catch an STD even with a condom than being falsely accused and convicted.

That was my worry when single.


----------



## Anon Pink

technovelist said:


> I don't think you understand. It involves men not *marrying* women.


I don't think you get it. Men don't have to marry women. They never have. No one has ever forced a man to marry...exceptions being the shotgun weddings of yesteryear. 

And yet, men hit a certain age and decide the meaningless sex has lost its appeal. So they seek meaningful lasting relationships. 

The whole movement is just hilarious. 

Bye bye. 
Okay now you get going now. 
Okay bye bye. 
Yes I see you leaving bye bye now.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> I still don't get it. How do we "act like" boobs? Conan obviously meant something other than your description, but thanks for it anyway. Cute.


Perhaps you like to burst free from what holds you back?


----------



## tech-novelist

marduk said:


> Meh.
> 
> I've been divorced and lost everything but my clothes and my playstation. And then built everything and dated around and then got married and had kids and almost lost everything again. A few times now.


I admire your persistence.

But I think I would have figured it out after the first time.


----------



## Faithful Wife

technovelist said:


> I admire your persistence.
> 
> But I think I would have figured it out after the first time.


I'm sure marduk is part of your mythical 20%, so he has no worries. I can see why you would.


----------



## Marduk

technovelist said:


> I don't think you understand. It involves men not *marrying* women.


No joke.

I had a family member die after a sudden illness. He was _exactly_ this kind of guy. And it was sad.

Multi-multi-millionaire. Every toy you could imagine. Every party vacation you could imagine. Longtime girlfriend that he refused to marry or live with because he didn't want to be taken advantage of.

He up and gets sick. Real sick. I go visit him. I shake his hand, and he won't let it go. He looks me in the eye, fighing back the tears, and he tells me that I'm a richer man than he ever will be and he would give it all up for a second of what I have. That he should have married that girl and had kids around him right now. He should have risked it all, because the money and toys and companies all don't matter.

And now he's dead. And it sucks. He had no children of his own to leave his empire to.

You can't make this stuff up, man.


----------



## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> Perhaps you like to burst free from what holds you back?


Or perhaps I'm a serial killer who smothers people with them.


----------



## tech-novelist

Anon Pink said:


> I don't think you get it. Men don't have to marry women. They never have. No one has ever forced a man to marry...exceptions being the shotgun weddings of yesteryear.
> 
> And yet, men hit a certain age and decide the meaningless sex has lost its appeal. So they seek meaningful lasting relationships.
> 
> The whole movement is just hilarious.
> 
> Bye bye.
> Okay now you get going now.
> Okay bye bye.
> Yes I see you leaving bye bye now.


What about the roughly 80% of men who are in the sexual desert from their teenage years until they get to be in their 30s and suddenly get attention from women who wouldn't give them the time of day before?

I know you don't think about those men at all, but if and when those men go on a marriage strike, those women are going to be the ones left high and dry, and that is when feminism will implode.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> I could be wearing a burlap sack and still have men flying across Home Depot to "help" me with things. They want to be near you, they want your appreciation, they want to feel that amazing rush that comes from a woman's attention on them.


Some chicks can make burlap sacks hot.










Just imagine if she was _also_ wearing yoga pants.


----------



## Faithful Wife

technovelist said:


> What about the roughly 80% of men who are in the sexual desert from their teenage years until they get to be in their 30s and suddenly get attention from women who wouldn't give them the time of day before?
> 
> I know you don't think about those men at all, but if and when those men go on a marriage strike, those women are going to be the ones left high and dry, and that is when feminism will implode.


:lol:

Oh the horrors.


----------



## tech-novelist

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm sure marduk is part of your mythical 20%, so he has no worries. I can see why you would.


If it is mythical, how can he be part of it? 

As for me, I have no worries at this point, having made it through the treacherous shoals of adolescence and early adulthood to arrive at a successful (second) marriage where my needs are met to a sufficient level.

But if I were a young man in this society, I would not risk marriage. The odds are too long for it to be worthwhile.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Or perhaps I'm a serial killer who smothers people with them.


What, like in that Woody Allen movie from the 70's where a giant boob roams the landscape smothering people?

That would be a good way to go.


----------



## Faithful Wife

technovelist said:


> If it is mythical, how can he be part of it?
> 
> As for me, I have no worries at this point, having made it through the treacherous shoals of adolescence and early adulthood to arrive at a successful (second) marriage where my needs are met to a sufficient level.
> 
> But if I were a young man in this society, I would not risk marriage. The odds are too long for it to be worthwhile.


He isn't, I was joking and mocking your made up percentages.


----------



## Anon Pink

technovelist said:


> What about the roughly 80% of men who are in the sexual desert from their teenage years until they get to be in their 30s and suddenly get attention from women who wouldn't give them the time of day before?
> 
> I know you don't think about those men at all, but if and when those men go on a marriage strike, those women are going to be the ones left high and dry, and that is when feminism will implode.


The men you're talking about, who couldn't get a date, couldn't get laid and now in their 30's they have gotten it together and women are actually interested in them? Those men think they died and went to heaven. And the very very small percentage of men who are bitter and resentful that their geeky youth netted them no pvssy...women don't respond well to bitterness or resentful men so it's doubtful there are any women interested in the MGTOW man. 

Like I said, bye bye now.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm sure marduk is part of your mythical 20%, so he has no worries. I can see why you would.


I am, thankyouverymuch.

I used to go around with 11 other guys and we'd call ourselves the 'mythical man month.'

Because, as you know, chicks dig that kind of thing.


----------



## tech-novelist

marduk said:


> No joke.
> 
> I had a family member die after a sudden illness. He was _exactly_ this kind of guy. And it was sad.
> 
> Multi-multi-millionaire. Every toy you could imagine. Every party vacation you could imagine. Longtime girlfriend that he refused to marry or live with because he didn't want to be taken advantage of.
> 
> He up and gets sick. Real sick. I go visit him. I shake his hand, and he won't let it go. He looks me in the eye, fighing back the tears, and he tells me that I'm a richer man than he ever will be and he would give it all up for a second of what I have. That he should have married that girl and had kids around him right now. He should have risked it all, because the money and toys and companies all don't matter.
> 
> And now he's dead. And it sucks. He had no children of his own to leave his empire to.
> 
> You can't make this stuff up, man.


The solution for a situation like that is to leave the Anglosphere for a country where men aren't treated like slaves. Women are women everywhere, but they won't act the same way if they don't have the jackboots of government to back them up.


----------



## Mr. Nail

Faithful Wife said:


> I could be wearing a burlap sack and still have men flying across Home Depot to "help" me with things. They want to be near you, they want your appreciation, they want to feel that amazing rush that comes from a woman's attention on them.


Yep that's the trap, the draw, and the reason we do favors. I would keep doing them if the power wasn't being abused. Obviously not by you. But by Hairdressers, fitness instructors, women named Tiffany . . . .


----------



## MJJEAN

technovelist said:


> What about the roughly 80% of men who are in the sexual desert from their teenage years until they get to be in their 30s and suddenly get attention from women who wouldn't give them the time of day before?
> 
> I know you don't think about those men at all, but if and when those men go on a marriage strike, those women are going to be the ones left high and dry, and that is when feminism will implode.


Well, since you mentioned a gender going on strike over marriage...

Wanna bet how fast MGTOW would implode if women went on a pre-marital sex strike? >


----------



## tech-novelist

Anon Pink said:


> The men you're talking about, who couldn't get a date, couldn't get laid and now in their 30's they have gotten it together and women are actually interested in them? Those men think they died and went to heaven. And the very very small percentage of men who are bitter and resentful that their geeky youth netted them no pvssy...women don't respond well to bitterness or resentful men so it's doubtful there are any women interested in the MGTOW man.
> 
> Like I said, bye bye now.


Right, they do think they have died and gone to heaven.
Until their wives cheat on and/or divorce them.
Then they realize where they have really gone.

And by the way, no one is forcing you to read or respond to my posts. You can just put me on ignore, as FW has done more times than I can recall at the moment.


----------



## NobodySpecial

I don't get a movement. Is the goal to make women pay as a group for some perceived injustice for ... what making men marry them? When has anyone been forced to marry?


----------



## Marduk

technovelist said:


> I admire your persistence.
> 
> But I think I would have figured it out after the first time.


Figured what out?

Listen man, there are two basic responses to risk. You can be risk-averse... you live in comparitive safety, and then die.

Or you can try to mitigate whatever risks you know about, but jump in with both feet anyway... win some, lose some, and die anyway.

I'd rather take me some grins and some tears along the way to the grave.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Mr. Nail said:


> Yep that's the trap, the draw, and the reason we do favors. I would keep doing them if the power wasn't being abused. Obviously not by you. But by Hairdressers, fitness instructors, women named Tiffany . . . .


And how are they abusing the power when men are offering favors under the guise of being kind and gentlemanly? What, other than the favor, do you think the woman is getting out of this and in what way does this abuse the man?


----------



## ocotillo

marduk said:


> Some chicks can make burlap sacks hot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just imagine if she was _also_ wearing yoga pants.


--Looks like Marilyn Monroe at 25.

Wait a minute.....


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't get a movement. Is the goal to make women pay as a group for some perceived injustice for ... what making men marry them? When has anyone been forced to marry?


My wife told me I had to marry her.

Granted, with the things she was doing to me at the time, she could have told me I needed to sprout wings and fly to the moon, and I would have done it.

But again, we're talking about boobs again.


----------



## tech-novelist

marduk said:


> Figured what out?
> 
> Listen man, there are two basic responses to risk. You can be risk-averse... you live in comparitive safety, and then die.
> 
> Or you can try to mitigate whatever risks you know about, but jump in with both feet anyway... win some, lose some, and die anyway.
> 
> I'd rather take me some grins and some tears along the way to the grave.


I don't feel like playing Russian Roulette, especially with 3 out of 6 chambers loaded, as the 50% divorce rate suggests.

Correspondingly, I don't see any compelling reason to marry these days, and plenty of reasons not to. 

Yes, I understand the desire for children (even though I don't have it myself), but it's a lot cheaper and safer to hire a surrogate for that. 

So why take the enormous risks that you yourself have ended up on the wrong side of?


----------



## Fozzy

marduk said:


> I've been divorced and lost everything but my clothes and my playstation.


So you got the important stuff then. :toast:


----------



## Faithful Wife

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't get a movement. Is the goal to make women pay as a group for some perceived injustice for ... what making men marry them? When has anyone been forced to marry?


Its part of the Red Pill/Mens Rights movement.


----------



## Marduk

Fozzy said:


> So you got the important stuff then. :toast:


No damn way.

Do you know how much good scotch I lost in the deal?

And my original 79 episodes of Star Trek I had on VHS?

Dammit, that still makes me mad.


----------



## Marduk

technovelist said:


> I don't feel like playing Russian Roulette, especially with 3 out of 6 chambers loaded, as the 50% divorce rate suggests.
> 
> Correspondingly, I don't see any compelling reason to marry these days, and plenty of reasons not to.
> 
> Yes, I understand the desire for children (even though I don't have it myself), but it's a lot cheaper and safer to hire a surrogate for that.
> 
> So why take the enormous risks that you yourself have ended up on the wrong side of?


It's your choice and I respect it.

But what's the enormous risk?


----------



## Fozzy

marduk said:


> No damn way.
> 
> Do you know how much good scotch I lost in the deal?
> 
> And my original 79 episodes of Star Trek I had on VHS?
> 
> Dammit, that still makes me mad.


I get her taking the scotch, but the Star Trek too???


----------



## Mr. Nail

Faithful Wife said:


> And how are they abusing the power when men are offering favors under the guise of being kind and gentlemanly? What, other than the favor, do you think the woman is getting out of this and in what way does this abuse the man?


This actually is part of some movement maybe even this one but for me it was personal. I was asked by the fitness instructor to warm up the sauna for the class. It turned out to be a test. As soon as she determined that I was "nice" she proceeded to walk all over me. Nice = door mat to her. Therefore no more favors. I'm still a nice guy, but there is no reason they can't turn on the sauna themselves. No heavy lifting involved.

So if it is expected, or deserved, then it is abused. If it is a 5h!t test, it is abused. If you truly never ask for help, then getting those favors is free and clear, and any smile you return is a bonus. 

Make sense?


----------



## Fozzy

As the old joke goes: Why is divorce so expensive? Because it's worth it.


----------



## Cletus

Fozzy said:


> I get her taking the scotch, but the Star Trek too???


Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor, not a divorce lawyer.


----------



## MJJEAN

Fozzy said:


> I get her taking the scotch, but the Star Trek too???


I'd take the Star Trek, too. I'm not entirely heartless, though. I'd make myself copies and return the originals.


----------



## Faithful Wife

technovelist said:


> I don't feel like playing Russian Roulette, especially with 3 out of 6 chambers loaded, as the 50% divorce rate suggests.
> 
> Correspondingly, I don't see any compelling reason to marry these days, and plenty of reasons not to.
> 
> Yes, I understand the desire for children (even though I don't have it myself), but it's a lot cheaper and safer to hire a surrogate for that.
> 
> So why take the enormous risks that you yourself have ended up on the wrong side of?


I knew a guy like this.

He was independently wealthy, was a miser and a hoarder. He also hated women (stated so openly). He attempted to adopt children or hire a surrogate, but shocker! No adoption or surrogacy agency would accept a single man who hates women and made no secret of it. So he used his wealth to procure two babies on the black market.

He then raised the kids alone and emotionally and sexually abused them. He also raised them to think they were poor, would not buy them any clothes or proper food and punished them if they asked for anything. The kids both ran away as teenagers. After they did, they found out how wealthy he is, but they still stayed as far away from him as possible.

Then he hated his kids and went on rampages about how horrible and ungrateful they were and spread gossip about them anywhere anyone would listen. He also supposedly had a will drawn up to specifically cut both of them out of it.

He died fairly young and unexpectedly, in his early 60's.

No one ever found the will in his hoarded heap of sh*t of a house, so the kids got all of his money.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Mr. Nail said:


> This actually is part of some movement maybe even this one but for me it was personal. I was asked by the fitness instructor to warm up the sauna for the class. It turned out to be a test. As soon as she determined that I was "nice" she proceeded to walk all over me. Nice = door mat to her. Therefore no more favors. I'm still a nice guy, but there is no reason they can't turn on the sauna themselves. No heavy lifting involved.
> 
> So if it is expected, or deserved, then it is abused. If it is a 5h!t test, it is abused. If you truly never ask for help, then getting those favors is free and clear, and any smile you return is a bonus.
> 
> Make sense?


So again, how exactly were you abused? Sounds like you consented at first, then withdrew your consent to future favors. Where was the harm to you?


----------



## Fozzy

Faithful Wife said:


> I knew a guy like this.
> 
> He was independently wealthy, was a miser and a hoarder. He also hated women (stated so openly). He attempted to adopt children or hire a surrogate, but shocker! No adoption or surrogacy agency would accept a single man who hates women and made no secret of it. So he used his wealth to procure two babies on the black market.
> 
> He then raised the kids alone and emotionally and sexually abused them. He also raised them to think they were poor, would not buy them any clothes or proper food and punished them if they asked for anything. The kids both ran away as teenagers. After they did, they found out how wealthy he is, but they still stayed as far away from him as possible.
> 
> Then he hated his kids and went on rampages about how horrible and ungrateful they were and spread gossip about them anywhere anyone would listen. He also supposedly had a will drawn up to specifically cut both of them out of it.
> 
> He died fairly young and unexpectedly, in his early 60's.
> 
> No one ever found the will in his hoarded heap of sh*t of a house, so the kids got all of his money.


Tempted to like your post only for the last sentence, but still can't bring myself to click it.

Fear and bitterness are no way to spend what little time we have on Earth.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Fozzy said:


> Tempted to like your post only for the last sentence, but still can't bring myself to click it.
> 
> Fear and bitterness are no way to spend what little time we have on Earth.


He was worth at least 10 million, but I bet the kids would still have rather had normal childhoods and not lived with a monster than have all the monster's wealth.


----------



## MJJEAN

Faithful Wife said:


> I knew a guy like this.
> 
> He was independently wealthy, was a miser and a hoarder. He also hated women (stated so openly). He attempted to adopt children or hire a surrogate, but shocker! No adoption or surrogacy agency would accept a single man who hates women and made no secret of it. So he used his wealth to procure two babies on the black market.
> 
> He then raised the kids alone and emotionally and sexually abused them. He also raised them to think they were poor, would not buy them any clothes or proper food and punished them if they asked for anything. The kids both ran away as teenagers. After they did, they found out how wealthy he is, but they still stayed as far away from him as possible.
> 
> Then he hated his kids and went on rampages about how horrible and ungrateful they were and spread gossip about them anywhere anyone would listen. He also supposedly had a will drawn up to specifically cut both of them out of it.
> 
> He died fairly young and unexpectedly, in his early 60's.
> 
> No one ever found the will in his hoarded heap of sh*t of a house, so the kids got all of his money.


Classic example of a guy who shouldn't ever have become a parent. Sometimes, there is a _reason_ no one wants to marry or reproduce with certain people.


----------



## Mr. Nail

Faithful Wife said:


> So again, how exactly were you abused? Sounds like you consented at first, then withdrew your consent to future favors. Where was the harm to you?


I see, men can't be abused.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Mr. Nail said:


> I see, men can't be abused.


That's not what I said. I'm just asking you where the abuse to you was in your story.


----------



## tech-novelist

marduk said:


> It's your choice and I respect it.
> 
> But what's the enormous risk?


There are several:

1. Getting taken to the cleaners in a divorce. 
2. Being thrown in jail because your wife "feels threatened", with no evidence required that you have harmed her in any way.
3. If you have children, having your children taken away from you and used as pawns to extract money from you under the threat of debtor's prison if you don't pay.
4. Having your wife cheat on you, get pregnant by the other man, and STILL having to pay child support.

And of course any combination of the above.

Note: none of these things have happened to me, although my ex-wife did *try* #1. But since she made more money than I did and had more money than I did, I got off with a split that favored her slightly but not ruinously.


----------



## Marduk

Mr. Nail said:


> I see, men can't be abused.


Wait, how was being asked to turn a sauna on for a pretty girl abuse?

Listen man, I was actually abused by my first wife. Slaps, kicks, punches, and even a cast iron frying pan one time.

And that was all nothing compared to some of the emotional abuse.

That's abuse. 

But I still do things for pretty girls all the time. Why not?


----------



## Fozzy

Mr. Nail said:


> I see, men can't be abused.


But how is your example different from a guy who comes to expect his wife to wash his nasty shorts for him for 50 years?


----------



## Mr. Nail

The Abuse (Physical) Was the part where I was pulled out of the shower to discuss how I had interrupted her class By swimming in the same pool. The Abuse (emotional) was the part where she used the "Favor" as an evaluation method to see if she could get away with the abuse (physical). 

But as it is impossible for any male to be abused I obviously imagined it all.


----------



## Marduk

technovelist said:


> There are several:
> 
> 1. Getting taken to the cleaners in a divorce.
> 2. Being thrown in jail because your wife "feels threatened", with no evidence required that you have harmed her in any way.
> 3. If you have children, having your children taken away from you and used as pawns to extract money from you under the threat of debtor's prison if you don't pay.
> 4. Having your wife cheat on you, get pregnant by the other man, and STILL having to pay child support.
> 
> And of course any combination of the above.
> 
> Note: none of these things have happened to me, although my ex-wife did *try* #1. But since she made more money than I did and had more money than I did, I got off with a split that favored her slightly but not ruinously.


#1 I can see. Pre-nup or opt out if you're not prepared to pay that price of admission.
#2 can happen, but it's gotta be rare, right? I mean, that almost happened to me, and she was a real ***** (I once pushed her away from me when she was hitting me and she thretened to call the cops). So that's happened once in all my relationships.
#3 is child support/custody law that crazy in the US? I mean, it's skewed in Canada, but not that skewed. 
#4 really?

I get what you're saying man, really I do. The price of admission is too high so you're not gonna pay it. It's your choice.

Maybe I like women too much. And the way I think about it is, I can't take it with me.


----------



## Marduk

Mr. Nail said:


> The Abuse (Physical) Was the part where I was pulled out of the shower to discuss how I had interrupted her class By swimming in the same pool. The Abuse (emotional) was the part where she used the "Favor" as an evaluation method to see if she could get away with the abuse (physical).
> 
> But as it is impossible for any male to be abused I obviously imagined it all.


Wait, what?

She pulled you (naked) out of the shower? Because you disrupted her class by swimming in the pool?

Because you didn't turn the sauna on?

I'm getting lost here man.


----------



## Mr. Nail

No the important point here is that it was because I *did* turn on the sauna.

I usually rinse the chlorine out of my suit. Prolongs it's life.


----------



## tech-novelist

marduk said:


> #1 I can see. Pre-nup or opt out if you're not prepared to pay that price of admission.
> #2 can happen, but it's gotta be rare, right? I mean, that almost happened to me, and she was a real ***** (I once pushed her away from me when she was hitting me and she thretened to call the cops). So that's happened once in all my relationships.
> #3 is child support/custody law that crazy in the US? I mean, it's skewed in Canada, but not that skewed.
> #4 really?
> 
> I get what you're saying man, really I do. The price of admission is too high so you're not gonna pay it. It's your choice.
> 
> Maybe I like women too much. And the way I think about it is, I can't take it with me.


1. Pre-nups are very weak protection in most jurisdictions.
2. However infrequent this is, it is a severe threat that hangs over the head of every man in the Anglosphere.
3. Child support debt is the only debt worse than student loan debt. At least all they can do with student loans is tie up your future income forever. With child support debt, they can throw you in jail. And you don't even get a trial, because it is technically "contempt of court" even if you have no way to pay.
4. Yep. 

See Real World Divorce: Custody, Child Support, and Alimony in the 50 States for the horrid facts about child support and divorce.

And who said anything about not liking women? I like them a lot, but I don't like the current legal system's oppression of men, which makes marriage too dangerous.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Mr. Nail said:


> The Abuse (Physical) Was the part where I was pulled out of the shower to discuss how I had interrupted her class By swimming in the same pool. The Abuse (emotional) was the part where she used the "Favor" as an evaluation method to see if she could get away with the abuse (physical).
> 
> But as it is impossible for any male to be abused I obviously imagined it all.


Wow, that was abusive! (to be clear, this is not sarcasm)

Look Mr. Nail, I know that humans of all genders are abusive and get abused. I never said otherwise. What you described is not only abusive it is weird and psycho. If you had said this the first time I had asked I would have agreed this was abusive, said "what a b*tch!", and that would have been the end of my questioning what the abuse was.


----------



## Mr. Nail

Mr. Nail said:


> It turned out to be a test. As soon as she determined that I was "nice" she proceeded to walk all over me. Nice = door mat to her.
> 
> Make sense?


----------



## GusPolinski

marduk said:


> Some chicks can make burlap sacks hot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just imagine if she was _also_ wearing yoga pants.


Nice taters.


----------



## Marduk

technovelist said:


> 1. Pre-nups are very weak protection in most jurisdictions.
> 2. However infrequent this is, it is a severe threat that hangs over the head of every man in the Anglosphere.
> 3. Child support debt is the only debt worse than student loan debt. At least all they can do with student loans is tie up your future income forever. With child support debt, they can throw you in jail. And you don't even get a trial, because it is technically "contempt of court" even if you have no way to pay.
> 4. Yep.
> 
> See Real World Divorce: Custody, Child Support, and Alimony in the 50 States for the horrid facts about child support and divorce.
> 
> And who said anything about not liking women? I like them a lot, but I don't like the current legal system's oppression of men, which makes marriage too dangerous.


 Can you form a lobby group maybe?

How can you get laws changed there?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Mr. Nail said:


> No the important point here is that it was because I *did* turn on the sauna.
> 
> I usually rinse the chlorine out of my suit. Prolongs it's life.


What a psycho.
Sorry dude.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr. Nail

How can you get laws changed there?

By refusing to sign the contract until the terms are fair, same as in the business world.

MN


----------



## MJJEAN

marduk said:


> #1 I can see. Pre-nup or opt out if you're not prepared to pay that price of admission.
> 
> #2 can happen, but it's gotta be rare, right? I mean, that almost happened to me, and she was a real ***** (I once pushed her away from me when she was hitting me and she thretened to call the cops). So that's happened once in all my relationships.
> 
> It depends. In some places, the locals are a bit lenient on what they consider proof and in other places the locals practically require an ER report with an eye witness and a written confession from the aggressor.
> 
> #3 is child support/custody law that crazy in the US? I mean, it's skewed in Canada, but not that skewed.
> 
> Again, depends.
> 
> In my state, the child support is based on a formula that takes into account both parents income, reasonable expenses (rent/mortgage, utilities, food, career related out of pocket expenses, healthcare expenses, etc.) and amount of time they have the children. This is a relatively recent change. Like, within the last decade. It used to be calculated solely on the income of the non-custodial parent.
> 
> Similarly, the former standard custody agreement here was mother has primary custody with father having every other weekend, every other holiday, and 3 weeks in the summer.
> 
> Now, the standard has become as close to each parent getting 50% of the year with their child as possible and the actual agreements vary depending on how the individual family functions. Sometimes, it's a week with mom and a week with dad. Sometimes a rotating schedule of 3 days with mom, 3 with dad. A common one is 6 months with mom, dad getting every weekend and 6 months with dad, mom getting every weekend.
> 
> #4 really?
> 
> Yes. In some states, the legal husband is automatically listed as father on the birth certificate as he is assumed to be the father.
> 
> Also, by law in some states, only the listed father can be charged child support.
> 
> So, in the case where a woman becomes pregnant by a man not her husband, the couple have to go to court and get a court order stating that the child is not issue of the marriage and that the legal husband is not the biological father. The the birth certificate can be amended. Only then can the mother pursue child support from the actual father.
> 
> Now, if a man accepts and raises a child as his own, then discovers he is not the biological parent, he may be held legally responsible as if he were the biological parent. It depends on how long he was acting as the father. According to the court, if he was presenting himself as father long enough, he made it a reality and he's the father for legal purposes with all rights and obligations.
> 
> I get what you're saying man, really I do. The price of admission is too high so you're not gonna pay it. It's your choice.
> 
> Maybe I like women too much. And the way I think about it is, I can't take it with me.


:smile2:

He does have some valid points, but they are a bit outdated. The laws have been steadily changing to me much more balanced and fair to both parents.


----------



## Marduk

Mr. Nail said:


> How can you get laws changed there?
> 
> By refusing to sign the contract until the terms are fair, same as in the business world.
> 
> MN


Not gonna work man. 

Why would the govt care if you don't get married?

You'll just pay more taxes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ocotillo

After taking the time to watch some of "Sandman's" YouTube channel, I think the guy goes off the reservation way too much.

Yes, it's funny as hell when a self-identified feminist invokes the, "I'm old fashioned" card, but his criticism of Ms. Watson and the HeForShe campaign is way out beyond Pluto....


----------



## Anon Pink

technovelist said:


> There are several:
> 
> 1. Getting taken to the cleaners in a divorce.
> 2. Being thrown in jail because your wife "feels threatened", with no evidence required that you have harmed her in any way.
> 3. If you have children, having your children taken away from you and used as pawns to extract money from you under the threat of debtor's prison if you don't pay.
> 4. Having your wife cheat on you, get pregnant by the other man, and STILL having to pay child support.
> 
> And of course any combination of the above.
> 
> Note: none of these things have happened to me, although my ex-wife did *try* #1. But since she made more money than I did and had more money than I did, I got off with a split that favored her slightly but not ruinously.


The single most secure way every man has to avoid your list is to *LISTEN to your SISTER and ditch the psycho-b!tch*! But, blinded by the batting eyes of a pretty girl...you fail to see the signs.


----------



## tech-novelist

Anon Pink said:


> The single most secure way every man has to avoid your list is to *LISTEN to your SISTER and ditch the psycho-b!tch*! But, blinded by the batting eyes of a pretty girl...you fail to see the signs.


Unfortunately I don't have a sister...


----------



## tech-novelist

Mr. Nail said:


> How can you get laws changed there?
> 
> By refusing to sign the contract until the terms are fair, same as in the business world.
> 
> MN


But you don't get to determine the terms of the marriage contract; the state does. And they can change the terms retroactively. So the only way to protect yourself is not to get married in the first place.

I wish it weren't true, but facts are facts.


----------



## tom67

Mr. Nail said:


> How can you get laws changed there?
> 
> By refusing to sign the contract until the terms are fair, same as in the business world.
> 
> MN


Exactly marriage IS a contract with the state/province in which you do Not know the terms.
It is that simple.


----------



## Thundarr

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't get a movement. Is the goal to make women pay as a group for some perceived injustice for ... what making men marry them? When has anyone been forced to marry?


Some guys need to hear the message of "go you own way". I was probably one of them just after my first marriage ended. Then again it's a terrible message for other guys. I can see that a lot of guys use this notion of women and society being evil to pass the blame and not take ownership of their own flaws.


----------



## Marduk

From a guy who's been abused, cheated on, and spontaneously divorced... all from the same woman.

I decided pretty early on to view that _particular_ woman as an anomaly in my life, not a trend or judgement of all women.

I don't choose to take the view that we live in a hostile universe, and people are generally ****ty.


----------



## tom67

marduk said:


> From a guy who's been abused, cheated on, and spontaneously divorced... all from the same woman.
> 
> I decided pretty early on to view that _particular_ woman as an anomaly in my life, not a trend or judgement of all women.
> 
> I don't choose to take the view that we live in a hostile universe, and people are generally ****ty.


marduk it's a personal choice I love your feedback and I'm glad things are going well with you I was the one that made a call to Deejo in your thread to help you out.
Even the receptionist at work has a son in college in Ma and we had a brief discussion about the Patrick Kane drama.
She has already told her son to date off campus.


----------



## Marduk

tom67 said:


> marduk it's a personal choice I love your feedback and I'm glad things are going well with you I was the one that made a call to Deejo in your thread to help you out.
> Even the receptionist at work has a son in college in Ma and we had a brief discussion about the Patrick Kane drama.
> She has already told her son to date off campus.


Thanks for looking out for me man. 

That was a tough time, and I don't know if I could have made it through without guys like you. 

I appreciate you having my back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ul-cZyuYq4


----------



## heartsbeating

As a well-traveled woman, whose travel was not paid for by parents and who traveled (with my husband) in my late 20s and 30s, I scanned the description of two of these clips... what are my thoughts? That's 10mins of my life I'll never get back. Oh and plus the time it took to write this. Gah!


----------



## NotEasy

Faithful Wife said:


> Can you clarify what "behaving like boobs" means?


I think "behaving like boobs" means behaving like an inept idiot.

The more common expression is "don't be a boob", meaning don't be an idiot.

I think it comes from booby seabirds. They fly well but can't land well. National Geographic had funny films of them. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booby


----------



## Anon Pink

technovelist said:


> Unfortunately I don't have a sister...



This brings up another point.

You don't have a sister.
You also don't have a rotten marriage.
You also don't have a histor of being taken to the cleaners due to an acrimonious divorce.

So if you can argue a point based on the suffering of others and not your own personal suffering, than you can take a point based on the merits of other families even though your family lacks such merits.


----------



## Anon Pink

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1lyu1KKwC74


----------



## Dycedarg

Wow, this is an emotionally charged topic for sure. 

I guess I'll give my two cents. If men want to "go their own way" just let them. Don't chide them or try to make them feel inadequate, or fabricate or cite questionable statistics about how they're going to end up miserable, or reference obscure, rare occurrences where such a path led someone to pain and loneliness. Just let them live the way they want. 

Otherwise one comes across as desperate and bitter, and that only serves to give further validation, and incentive for men to go their own way.


----------



## tom67

This isn't just the western world guys are checking out in Japan...
Concern as Japan's 2014 birth rate falls to record low - BBC News

https://www.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/37tllm/germany_passes_japan_to_have_worlds_lowest_birth/

Guys have had enough of radical third wave feminism.
These are FACTS.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Personal said:


> At the end of the day it's not going to make a whole lot of difference if sexually unsuccessful men (since they're already sexually unsuccessful) withdraw themselves from the mating pool.


Yah that makes me laugh a little. I'll show you! I'll boycott the opportunity that I am not afforded anyway!


----------



## Anon Pink

tom67 said:


> This isn't just the western world guys are checking out in Japan...
> Concern as Japan's 2014 birth rate falls to record low - BBC News
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/37tllm/germany_passes_japan_to_have_worlds_lowest_birth/
> 
> Guys have had enough of radical third wave feminism.
> These are FACTS.



Ah yes, those poor unfortunate Japanese men no longer being able to find a submissive woman to marry.


----------



## always_alone

I've been thinking about this, and I don't think I know a single man who hasn't gone his own way. The ones who wanted to get married are married, the ones who want to be single, single, the ones who wanted children have children, the ones who didn't don't.

Which isn't to say that they are all perfectly happy and absolutely everything worked out their way. But just that they all made their own choices, lived how they wanted, and made the most of it when problems or challenges arose.


----------



## always_alone

Personal said:


> What 80% of men? Is there some sort of special town somewhere that socially and sexually inept men gravitate towards, which makes a particular population look like it's 80%?


I'm puzzled by this too. I was chatting with a friend of mine the other day, and his crippling social anxiety that he suffers from, how difficult he finds it to interact with people, generally speaking, and how he has had to make consistent effort to try and be out there and social. And he is not at all a bad boy or an "alpha", or a chest thumper, but a total huggy bear sweetie pie type.

And so you'd think he might be part of this 80%, right? But he's had an average number of partners, and is now with this lovely woman that makes him happy.

Is there actually anyone in this 80%?


----------



## tom67

Anon Pink said:


> Ah yes, those poor unfortunate Japanese men no longer being able to find a submissive woman to marry.


Well when women are acting like men it's kind of a turn off.
Thank you feminism.


----------



## ConanHub

Anon Pink said:


> Ah yes, those poor unfortunate Japanese men no longer being able to find a submissive woman to marry.


I was kind of wondering about that and how much it was impacting the situation.

Asian culture is super patriarchal and has only recently, within the last hundred years or so, had a more egalitarian culture forced upon them.

I used word forced because they have struggled mightily against cultural changes. 

Boys are still far more prized than girls in general.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

tom67 said:


> This isn't just the western world guys are checking out in Japan...
> Concern as Japan's 2014 birth rate falls to record low - BBC News
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/37tllm/germany_passes_japan_to_have_worlds_lowest_birth/
> 
> Guys have had enough of radical third wave feminism.
> These are FACTS.


Lets be fair. A lot of men aren't acting like men.

I'm definitely a complimentarian. Yeah, I might have made that up.

I'm in the camp of equal but love and respect the differences between the sexes.

As a man, I can't stop acting like a man even if a lot of women are acting strange. I see boys who won't grow up and women having a hell of a time with them.

I do think some aspect of cultural change has negatively impacted men.

I don't think it is what the women are buying into is the problem. 

It is what the young men are buying that is causing many issues.

Women are essential and beneficial to the development of young men but they are not men and boys need good examples and instructions from men.

I think a lot of men have checked out and it has negatively impacted society.

There are laws that suck all the way around but if young men were brought up well they will have far fewer issues.

I'm watching it unfold having two sons. There are actually a lot of young women that will nearly enslave themselves for a man that has any good traits.

It was hard to teach my youngest son respect and humility when young ladies were mailing him cell phones, asking him to call and offering to work to support him if he would just be theirs.

These girls aren't cave trolls. They are attractive, hard working and accomplished and apparently don't have a lot to choose from. I feel very sad for their prospects.

It is also a little sad that I had to take my son aside and tell him to up his game and get with it because I didn't think he was good enough for his current, second, girlfriend.

She is attractive, hard working and responsible, positive and a good influence and is working part time while going to nursing school.

Up until this year, my son was an unemployed couch surfer who is attractive and treated women with respect and voiced some pretty conservative and old school thoughts.

He really didn't have much going for him to attract the women he has.

Thankfully he listened to me and was positively influenced by his girlfriend. He is now managing a drive in, it is a start, and providing the bulk of their financial support while she goes to school.

I don't think that 30 years ago that he could have attracted the caliber of woman that he did in the present.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

ConanHub said:


> Lets be fair. A lot of men aren't acting like men.
> 
> I'm definitely a complimentarian. Yeah, I might have made that up.
> 
> I'm in the camp of equal but love and respect the differences between the sexes.
> 
> As a man, I can't stop acting like a man even if a lot of women are acting strange. I see boys who won't grow up and women having a hell of a time with them.
> 
> I do think some aspect of cultural change has negatively impacted men.
> 
> I don't think it is what the women are buying into is the problem.
> 
> It is what the young men are buying that is causing many issues.
> 
> Women are essential and beneficial to the development of young men but they are not men and boys need good examples and instructions from men.
> 
> I think a lot of men have checked out and it has negatively impacted society.
> 
> There are laws that suck all the way around but if young men were brought up well they will have far fewer issues.
> 
> I'm watching it unfold having two sons. There are actually a lot of young women that will nearly enslave themselves for a man that has any good traits.
> 
> It was hard to teach my youngest son respect and humility when young ladies were mailing him cell phones, asking him to call and offering to work to support him if he would just be theirs.
> 
> These girls aren't cave trolls. They are attractive, hard working and accomplished and apparently don't have a lot to choose from. I feel very sad for their prospects.
> 
> It is also a little sad that I had to take my son aside and tell him to up his game and get with it because I didn't think he was good enough for his current, second, girlfriend.
> 
> She is attractive, hard working and responsible, positive and a good influence and is working part time while going to nursing school.
> 
> Up until this year, my son was an unemployed couch surfer who is attractive and treated women with respect and voiced some pretty conservative and old school thoughts.
> 
> He really didn't have much going for him to attract the women he was.
> 
> Thankfully he listened to me and was positively influenced by his girlfriend. He is now managing a drive in, it is a start, and providing the bulk of their financial support while she goes to school.
> 
> I don't think that 30 years ago that he could have attracted the caliber of woman that he did in the present.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:
It's the way boys today in school are generally treated like second class citizens and in some cases not having a father/father figure over the past 30/40 years.
Also doping them up with drugs because they are simply behaving like boys.


----------



## ConanHub

tom67 said:


> :iagree:
> It's the way boys today in school are generally treated like second class citizens and in some cases not having a father/father figure over the past 30/40 years.
> Also doping them up with drugs because they are simply behaving like boys.


That is very scary and I have seen it happening for decades.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr. Nail

I don't know what to say about the young men acting like men. I have 3 Daughters, all single. And one son who definitely has a Sister! He is a real Boy Scout. Literally and figuratively. Yes he can tie a Knot and McGuiver a shelter out of duct tape and twigs, but he also lives the values every day. I won't say girls his age ignore him, it's more like he is everyone's Gay Best Friend. 

He is pretty much committed to join the Navy. When I talk to him about how that will adversely affect his chances at a successful marriage, He isn't too worried about that. Maybe that's why the girls treat him that way. He is not really available for the Long Term Relationship.


----------



## 2&out

Some interesting reading here. I fall into this category - married and failed twice so been there done that and no thanks on doing it again. I have 2 kids from first ex that live with me. So for me there is no upside or benefit even close to worth the work a long term relationship or marriage takes. I'll just bounce around sampling. I have no worries about being aged and alone.

Interesting kid discussion too. I have a son in college studying one of his passions that will lead to 6 figures shortly after he's done with school and he may even walk straight into. While he has a fairly serious girlfriend, I have been trying my best to discourage him from even thinking about making any plans involving a woman. He is lucky enough that it's doubtful he'll ever have to make much effort pursuing female attention - they come to him. And girls these days seem a lot more aggressive than I remember. I am encouraging hard for him to focus on his career and once he's done with school and done some things, then think about it. For now work hard and play. 30 will come soon enough and he will still be plenty young enough to start a family if he wants to.


----------



## bandit.45

Wow...I joined a movement and didn't even know it.


----------



## Marduk

tom67 said:


> This isn't just the western world guys are checking out in Japan...
> Concern as Japan's 2014 birth rate falls to record low - BBC News
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/37tllm/germany_passes_japan_to_have_worlds_lowest_birth/
> 
> Guys have had enough of radical third wave feminism.
> These are FACTS.


How do we know it's not women choosing not to marry or have kids?

A buddy of mine married a Japanese girl and told me that men there are looking for wives from other countries because the women in Japan either are too career driven or marry rich white guys. 

Of which my buddy is one, so your mileage may vary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

technovelist said:


> But you don't get to determine the terms of the marriage contract; the state does. And they can change the terms retroactively. So the only way to protect yourself is not to get married in the first place.
> 
> I wish it weren't true, but facts are facts.


You could say the same about anything: owning property, driving a car, hell, your cable company makes you sign a contract.

Where do you draw the line?


----------



## tech-novelist

marduk said:


> You could say the same about anything: owning property, driving a car, hell, your cable company makes you sign a contract.
> 
> Where do you draw the line?


Nope. Real contracts have known terms that are enforceable on both parties and cannot be changed without the consent of all parties.

Marriage has unknown terms that are effectively enforceable only on the man and can be changed without the consent of all parties.

That's where I draw the line.


----------



## Marduk

technovelist said:


> Nope. Real contracts have known terms that are enforceable on both parties and cannot be changed without the consent of all parties.
> 
> Marriage has unknown terms that are effectively enforceable only on the man and can be changed without the consent of all parties.
> 
> That's where I draw the line.


My buddy just had the city change his zoning and force his house for sale so they could build a bridge.

Given market conditions, he's gonna lose money.

It happens. It's a risk. You live in a city, it's the city that actually has right of way.


----------



## tom67

marduk said:


> How do we know it's not women choosing not to marry or have kids?
> 
> A buddy of mine married a Japanese girl and told me that men there are looking for wives from other countries because the women in Japan either are too career driven or marry rich white guys.
> 
> Of which my buddy is one, so your mileage may vary.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:
There is a percentage of them like this also this is happening in China where career women are having dating problems also.
Culture versus feminism globally.


----------



## ConanHub

I will say that I think people ought to remove the state from marriage.

Draw up their own contracts. Seriously.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tech-novelist

ConanHub said:


> I will say that I think people ought to remove the state from marriage.
> 
> Draw up their own contracts. Seriously.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm all in favor of this, but it had better not be "equivalent" to marriage in the eyes of the state, or they will decide that you are married anyway.

And unfortunately I don't know of any way to be absolutely sure that they won't do that. An LLC should be a fair place to start, though.

Note: I'm not a lawyer, do your own research and diligence, etc.


----------



## tech-novelist

marduk said:


> My buddy just had the city change his zoning and force his house for sale so they could build a bridge.
> 
> Given market conditions, he's gonna lose money.
> 
> It happens. It's a risk. You live in a city, it's the city that actually has right of way.


That's not a contract; that's eminent domain, which is a power of government that they impose without your agreement.

I can't imagine who would sign a contract as one-sided and arbitrarily interpreted as the actual rules of marriage.

By the way, has anyone ever tried to write a contract that corresponds to the actual rules of marriage in any state? Not the theoretical rules, the ones that the courts actually impose, e.g., bias in child custody toward the woman, disguising alimony as child support, and the like? I'm sure it would be thrown out as unconscionable if it involved anything else...


----------



## MJJEAN

tom67 said:


> :iagree:
> There is a percentage of them like this also this is happening in China where career women are having dating problems also.
> Culture versus feminism globally.


It's not just that women are able to work and can choose not to marry or that men don't want non-traditional wives. It's also that desirable real estate in China and Japan is extremely expensive, the cost of raising a child is astronomical, and singles are finding themselves increasingly responsible for elder parent care. 

Frankly, unless you're very successful, you can't afford to marry and have a family.


----------



## tom67

ConanHub said:


> I will say that I think people ought to remove the state from marriage.
> 
> Draw up their own contracts. Seriously.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They won't it's a money maker for whatever county you are in.


----------



## tom67

MJJEAN said:


> It's not just that women are able to work and can choose not to marry or that men don't want non-traditional wives. It's also that desirable real estate in China and Japan is extremely expensive, the cost of raising a child is astronomical, and singles are finding themselves increasingly responsible for elder parent care.
> 
> Frankly, unless you're very successful, you can't afford to marry and have a family.


Oh no doubt global banksters are devaluing everyone's currencies, but this is part of their culture...
If You Are Not Married By 25, You Are A 'Leftover Woman' In China
Despite the HP spin they get to the point.


----------



## NotEasy

technovelist said:


> I'm all in favor of this, but it had better not be "equivalent" to marriage in the eyes of the state, or they will decide that you are married anyway.
> 
> And unfortunately I don't know of any way to be absolutely sure that they won't do that. An LLC should be a fair place to start, though.
> 
> Note: I'm not a lawyer, do your own research and diligence, etc.


Half of me supports this idea. I like anything that gets people to think about what they are committing to in marriage and think about the future.

But I also fear feeding more lawyers.

Also here (Australia) I believe the courts and government already treat couples as married given length of co-habitation, joint bank-accounts and whatever else they decide on. I think courts may treat having your own written marriage contract as a 'normal' marriage, and then replace or add to whatever you wrote with the 'normal' marriage contract.


----------



## tech-novelist

NotEasy said:


> Half of me supports this idea. I like anything that gets people to think about what they are committing to in marriage and think about the future.
> 
> But I also fear feeding more lawyers.
> 
> Also here (Australia) I believe the courts and government already treat couples as married given length of co-habitation, joint bank-accounts and whatever else they decide on. I think courts may treat having your own written marriage contract as a 'normal' marriage, and then replace or add to whatever you wrote with the 'normal' marriage contract.


Yes, that's exactly what I was referring to.

I have seen the suggestion on another web site that to avoid this, a man should have a contract like that with *two* women so that the government could not convert it into marriage.

My response was "that would be the trigger for the government to legalize polygamy along with same-sex marriage". >


----------



## Anon Pink

tom67 said:


> Well when women are acting like men it's kind of a turn off.
> Thank you feminism.


HA! This is hilariously wrong! In fact, it is backwards. It is the women who are eschewing marriage. The women in China have become educated and successful and career driven. As such, they have higher standards for their future husband. Unfortunately, Chinese men have not risen in education or business as fast or well as Chinese women. The women have a choice, lower their standards in order to avoid becoming a "left behind" woman, or keep their standards in place and continue their rise through financial success. Many more have chosen not to marry instead of lowering their standards.

It isn't the men going their own way in China. It is the women.

If China had a stronger feminist movement the culture would be forced to change so the women who are goi g their own way are no longer labeled as left behind. Because in truth it is the women who are leaving behind the men, not the other way around.


You Do Not Want To Be A Single Lady Over 28 In China - Business Insider


----------



## ocotillo

I can't make up my mind whether the situation in China helps or hurts the MGTOW / Red Pill crowd. 

Three decades of enforced one-child families in China has resulted in the worst human-caused gender gap on the planet. One might suppose that this would naturally result in a higher percentage of women marrying than men, but both genders appear to be cake eating at the trough of traditionalism. 

Men of means seem to think this entitles them to a subservient, utterly dependent sweet young thing who always says, "Yes." And you can hardly blame an educated post-modern woman for rejecting that idea out of hand. On the flip side of the coin though, a man's financial worth is still a statement of his worth as a human being and no matter how that is candy-coated, it is still condemned by the exact same Neo-Kantian philosophy from which the concept of objectification is derived. 

That might be primarily a result of a skewed and unfair real estate system though.


----------



## Faithful Wife

They are screwed up in their own ways, just like the US is screwed up in our own ways.

However, none of these issues will ever stop Nature from taking her course. Men and women will always want to be together and will ALWAYS find a way.


----------



## Anon Pink

technovelist said:


> Yes, that's exactly what I was referring to.
> 
> I have seen the suggestion on another web site that to avoid this, a man should have a contract like that with *two* women so that the government could not convert it into marriage.
> 
> My response was "that would be the trigger for the government to legalize polygamy along with same-sex marriage". >



I am all for legalizing polygamy. I could use another husband or two. 

There is a small village in.. Sri Lanka I think, in which they practice fraternal polygamy. The brothers in one family all take the same woman to wife. It is to conserve the precious family land so it is not divided up. What a brilliant and pragmatic way to conserve wealth!


----------



## Anon Pink

@ocotillo, I think it hurts the MGTOW movement. As stated earlier, the men's movement is really a protest against the unfair divorce laws, which makes sense. Except for the fact that it does nothing to actually help men achieve better relationships. Whereas in China, the women aren't really protesting anything. They are willing to take their lumps (cultural derision for being unmarried and childless) in order to stick to their standards. 

According to the article, the single child rule has also meant that sex selection happen with regularity and there are some 30 million more men than women in that country. So while the women are being pretty picky they have many more men from which to choose. Unlike men who want a simple submissive wife and that kind of woman is rare among the rare women. 

It will be fascinating to see how that culture copes with these opposing changes over the next 20 years.

@Faithful Wife, you're right! Men and women will always find a way. I mean if Kim Davis can get married 4 times...anyone who wants to will.


----------



## NotEasy

technovelist said:


> Yes, that's exactly what I was referring to.
> 
> I have seen the suggestion on another web site that to avoid this, a man should have a contract like that with *two* women so that the government could not convert it into marriage.
> 
> My response was "that would be the trigger for the government to legalize polygamy along with same-sex marriage". >


Brilliant ploy. 

I guess the government would say the second contract was bigamy and therefore is invalid.

So the next time they would sign both contracts simultaneously. And the government would ?...

There was a brilliant piece written here which followed the local same sex campaign slogan of "love = marriage" to promote sport team marriages. What is the first, strongest love of most adults here? It is to the sports team they play in. So let sports teams marry. Most thought that was just comedy though.


----------



## tech-novelist

NotEasy said:


> Brilliant ploy.
> 
> I guess the government would say the second contract was bigamy and therefore is invalid.
> 
> So the next time they would sign both contracts simultaneously. And the government would ?...
> 
> There was a brilliant piece written here which followed the local same sex campaign slogan of "love = marriage" to promote sport team marriages. What is the first, strongest love of most adults here? It is to the sports team they play in. So let sports teams marry. Most thought that was just comedy though.


No, the contract was to be among all three people, to avoid the bigamy charge. But I still think the Supreme Court would discover a right to polygamy, as they discovered a right to same-sex marriage. Polygamy has a lot longer history...


----------



## MJJEAN

tom67 said:


> Oh no doubt global banksters are devaluing everyone's currencies, but this is part of their culture...
> If You Are Not Married By 25, You Are A 'Leftover Woman' In China
> Despite the HP spin they get to the point.


What you're missing is that successful men have had no trouble finding wives. Chinese and Japanese culture dictates the proper way to be married and raise a child. If this standard cannot be achieved, it's better to not marry and have children.

Chinese and Japanese women are looking for men who are successful enough to be able to afford a home, furnishings, clothing, childcare, school fees and related expenses, etc. Due to the incredible costs of housing and school fees alone, there is a very small pool of available men who have achieved the education and income level required.


----------



## tech-novelist

MJJEAN said:


> What you're missing is that successful men have had no trouble finding wives. Chinese and Japanese culture dictates the proper way to be married and raise a child. If this standard cannot be achieved, it's better to not marry and have children.
> 
> Chinese and Japanese women are looking for men who are successful enough to be able to afford a home, furnishings, clothing, childcare, school fees and related expenses, etc. Due to the incredible costs of housing and school fees alone, there is a very small pool of available men who have achieved the education and income level required.


In other words, hypergamy is alive and well in China and Japan.
Since it is a basic drive, that's not too surprising...


----------



## MJJEAN

technovelist said:


> In other words, hypergamy is alive and well in China and Japan.
> Since it is a basic drive, that's not too surprising...


No, it's not surprising at all. 

What surprises me is when women override their basic drives in order to be with a man who falls short of the mark.


----------



## farsidejunky

Faithful Wife said:


> Or perhaps I'm a serial killer who smothers people with them.


Far worse ways to go.

Kervorkian had the method COMPLETELY wrong...


----------



## Faithful Wife

technovelist said:


> In other words, hypergamy is alive and well in China and Japan.
> Since it is a basic drive, that's not too surprising...


Poor, poor menz. No matter which way you look at it. Here they are, trying to go their own way, but it doesn't matter anyway because what they really want is a woman who loves them for who they are and yet...hypergamy makes this impossible for 80% of them, and even of the top 20%, women will just cycle through them as they keep climbing over the top of each one to find the next better one. Because womenz, of course, are soul-less horrible creatures who don't want want love they just want the hottest c*ck on the carousel, and maybe a baby or two (all on his dime, of course, as she waits at home in her castle eating bonbons while the poor schmuck works his fingers to the bone).

I'm so sorry you have such a crummy view of men, women, life and relationships. It must be really scary inside your head.

Meanwhile back in reality....men and women everywhere love each other and pay no attention to your sad schemes, since they are not reality. 

I'm sorry they are for you.


----------



## tech-novelist

MJJEAN said:


> No, it's not surprising at all.
> 
> What surprises me is when women override their basic drives in order to be with a man who falls short of the mark.


Well, that can be due to the fact that the drive has two components, crudely referred to as "alpha f*cks, beta bucks". So a woman may have sex with a man who is way below her in status but has the alpha attractors.


----------



## tech-novelist

Faithful Wife said:


> Poor, poor menz. No matter which way you look at it. Here they are, trying to go their own way, but it doesn't matter anyway because what they really want is a woman who loves them for who they are and yet...hypergamy makes this impossible for 80% of them, and even of the top 20%, women will just cycle through them as they keep climbing over the top of each one to find the next better one. Because womenz, of course, are soul-less horrible creatures who don't want want love they just want the hottest c*ck on the carousel, and maybe a baby or two (all on his dime, of course, as she waits at home in her castle eating bonbons while the poor schmuck works his fingers to the bone).
> 
> I'm so sorry you have such a crummy view of men, women, life and relationships. It must be really scary inside your head.
> 
> Meanwhile back in reality....men and women everywhere love each other and pay no attention to your sad schemes, since they are not reality.
> 
> I'm sorry they are for you.


I'm sorry that you seem to have so much trouble understanding what I'm saying. Maybe you should just put me back on ignore if you don't want to waste your time trying to figure me out, since that seems not to work out very well for you.


----------



## Faithful Wife

technovelist said:


> I'm sorry that you seem to have so much trouble understanding what I'm saying. Maybe you should just put me back on ignore if you don't want to waste your time trying to figure me out, since that seems not to work out very well for you.


Oh I understand it perfectly well. I've read all the same trash that says the exact things you are saying. Its all over the place, always written by men who sound just like you. Don't worry about me, I get it.

I just feel sad for you and others like you that think the world is so horrible and you are so oppressed by the very people you wish you could nail.


----------



## NotEasy

Anon Pink said:


> @*ocotillo*, I think it hurts the MGTOW movement. As stated earlier, the men's movement is really a protest against the unfair divorce laws, which makes sense. Except for the fact that it does nothing to actually help men achieve better relationships. Whereas in China, the women aren't really protesting anything. They are willing to take their lumps (cultural derision for being unmarried and childless) in order to stick to their standards.
> 
> According to the article, the single child rule has also meant that sex selection happen with regularity and there are some 30 million more men than women in that country. So while the women are being pretty picky they have many more men from which to choose. Unlike men who want a simple submissive wife and that kind of woman is rare among the rare women.
> 
> It will be fascinating to see how that culture copes with these opposing changes over the next 20 years.
> 
> @*Faithful Wife*, you're right! Men and women will always find a way. I mean if Kim Davis can get married 4 times...anyone who wants to will.


I agree the movement may do nothing to achieve better marriages. The two videos I started watching seem to drive vulnerable men deeper into their self-justified delusions. The start of two videos was enough wasted time.

The optimist in me hopes these men will use the time-out to examine their faults and better themselves. But I see nothing in the movement to justify this optimism.

I heard the Indian gender ratio is even more skewed. And the females are also behaving in similar ways. They demand their husband have similar or better education, employment and wealth. Some Indian males see this as an affront.

Sadly the way I heard about this was from Indian ex-pat co-workers. Thankfully they say the preference for sons is less in the local community than back home.

One of them was quietly considering sending his son back to India to find a suitable wife. He considered the local girls too independent. He didn't talk about it much, but I gather it is a fairly common trend. He saw it as helping the mother country. The others ridiculed him and the idea. The poor girl will be plucked from the country-side and moved to a big foreign city with a new culture. They say most of these marriages fail.

Maybe a similar trend exists among Chinese ex-pats. 

I heard Chinese country boys who move to the city and get a labouring job see themselves as very successful, but cannot interest a city girl. They have to go back to the country side to find a wife. In their case they both marry people with the same upbringing, his city labouring job is seen as better than a countryside job or unemployment and she gets to move to the city which she probably wants anyway. So both are happy. Like you said, men and women will always find a way.

The employed country boys then fight over the remaining country girls. 

And the unemployed country boys are sadly left alone.

The scary thing is there is supposedly a bitterness growing among the many young chinese males who can't get wives, housing or employment. Chinese ex-pats have described it as very large and potentially violent. Sort of the boxer rebellion all over again. I think we can ignore the MGTOW movement, I fear the Chinese group wont be able to be ignored if it happens.


----------



## NotEasy

technovelist said:


> No, the contract was to be among all three people, to avoid the bigamy charge. But I still think the Supreme Court would discover a right to polygamy, as they discovered a right to same-sex marriage. Polygamy has a lot longer history...


Three people contracting together avoids the last one being kicked out of the marriage as a bigamist. But I think the most likely thing is the court rules the whole thing bigamy, so no-one is married. That seems easier than discovering the right to polygamy.

Maybe that is my Australian bias. Our High Court didn't discover the right to same sex marriage. Instead when a state enacted same sex marriage laws they said the Commonwealth controls marriage, Commonwealth laws state 'a man and a woman', state laws can't change that, so the state laws were void. So, I think, our Commonwealth law saying '*a* man and *a* woman' would mean polygamy can't be enacted by the states or discovered by our courts.

I vaguely recall a case like this where an Australian actor cohabited with two sisters. The only one google found was Jack Thompson. If they started to cohabit at the same time then, even without a contract, the court might have to make similar decision.

And I wonder what the MGTOW movement would make of this? If they want to avoid divorce laws maybe written contracts would interest them.


----------



## NotEasy

technovelist said:


> No, the contract was to be among all three people, to avoid the bigamy charge. But I still think the Supreme Court would discover a right to polygamy, as they discovered a right to same-sex marriage.* Polygamy has a lot longer history*...


When you say that polygamy as a longer history, how is that justified? I certainly think polygamy existed in some historical societies. But same sex relationships also existed in history, perhaps not marriage, but at least relationships.

And this is going off the track. Maybe wants another thread.

I have to do some reading now.


----------



## tech-novelist

NotEasy said:


> When you say that polygamy as a longer history, how is that justified? I certainly think polygamy existed in some historical societies. But same sex relationships also existed in history, perhaps not marriage, but at least relationships.
> 
> And this is going off the track. Maybe wants another thread.
> 
> I have to do some reading now.


Polygamy, in the sense of a marriage consisting of more than two persons, has been very frequent throughout history and is still practiced in a number of societies. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy for some information on this.

Of course it is also fairly frequently mentioned in the Bible (mainly if not exclusively in the Old Testament), for those of a religious bent.


----------



## NotEasy

MJJEAN said:


> What you're missing is that successful men have had no trouble finding wives. Chinese and Japanese culture dictates the proper way to be married and raise a child. If this standard cannot be achieved, it's better to not marry and have children.
> 
> Chinese and Japanese women are looking for men who are successful enough to be able to afford a home, furnishings, clothing, childcare, school fees and related expenses, etc. Due to the incredible costs of housing and school fees alone, there is a very small pool of available men who have achieved the education and income level required.


One trend I have heard whispered about is marrying but not having any kids, or delaying children indefinitely. Those who do it only dare whisper that this is their plan, they keep saying after the next promotion, or when we have the schooling fees saved or whatever to keep others happy. It is seen as a terrible thing by elders, nearly as bad as not marrying.

The basic urge to live together is satisfied. The thing that amazed me is that women seem OK with this. I thought their biological clock would apply pressure for kids.

This might be seen as a victory for MGTOW. Although I doubt they planned it. If there are no kids there is not need for child support after a divorce.


----------



## MJJEAN

NotEasy said:


> If there are no kids there is not need for child support after a divorce.


Unless the MGTOW fellas are going to be celibate, there will always be child support.

I don't know where the idea comes from that sexually active single men can't become fathers and have to pay support. If there is sex, there is a risk of pregnancy. Birth control used incorrectly, poor birth control choice for the situation, straight birth control failure (I'm a mom because of a Pill failure and became a mom the 2nd time due to condom failure) and the ever so classic "Of course I'm on BC! Trust me!"

If child support and related fees such as daycare and healthcare are the main reason these guys are whinging, they need to realize that sex makes babies and the only way to avoid child support with 100% certainty is to stop having sex.


----------



## Faithful Wife

NotEasy said:


> The basic urge to live together is satisfied. The thing that amazed me is that women seem OK with this. I thought their biological clock would apply pressure for kids.


Nature has her ways. When a population of any species is overpopulating or if all the babies are coming out sick due to lack of food or water, the adults stop making babies.

In other species, this means they stop having sex. In our species, we will keep having sex but sterilize ourselves (whether medically or just because Nature has Her hand in this) and stop having babies and thus, slow down the overpopulation. Voila, everyone's happy and still getting sex.

If adults can create enough wealth for themselves to care for their own twilight years, which is significantly easier to do if you don't make any babies, then those who choose to be childless or have it chosen for them (by Nature) don't have to rely on those unborn kids to cover those costs. 

No other species uses their young to carry their old. It is every creature for itself at the end.


----------



## NotEasy

MJJEAN said:


> Unless the MGTOW fellas are going to be celibate, there will always be child support.
> 
> I don't know where the idea comes from that sexually active single men can't become fathers and have to pay support. If there is sex, there is a risk of pregnancy. Birth control used incorrectly, poor birth control choice for the situation, straight birth control failure (I'm a mom because of a Pill failure and became a mom the 2nd time due to condom failure) and the ever so classic "Of course I'm on BC! Trust me!"
> 
> If child support and related fees such as daycare and healthcare are the main reason these guys are whinging, they need to realize that sex makes babies and the only way to avoid child support with 100% certainty is to stop having sex.


Please realise that I was talking about couples living together that both want a sex life, but not to have children. And given it is seen as so socially unacceptable, I only heard occassional whispers about it. Maybe I mis-understand their motives and intentions. 

Life was very different over there. Some of them were trying pay from their small studio apartment with two incomes. One couple of close friends had two planned kids in a studio apartment which had just one chair and no space left for a sofa. We sat on the parents bed to eat and talk. They were so house proud that they had such a great apartment. I had trouble politely sharing their enthusiasm. 

Of course accidents happen. My guess is some of them would have abortions given an accidental pregnancy. And I guess some of them would change plans, carry on with the pregnancy and make some grandparents very happy.

And I wonder if some of them are saying "no kids" to make their spouse happy, but secretly are planning to have an accidental pregancy.

Personally I doubt the MGTOW planned or predicted any of this. I was just thinking out loud. My limited understanding of MGTOW is that some of them are so bitter about divorce, child support, marriage breakup etc that they are imposing celibacy on themselves. But to do so within a relationship seems too crazy even for the MGTOW group.


----------



## NotEasy

Faithful Wife said:


> Nature has her ways. When a population of any species is overpopulating or if all the babies are coming out sick due to lack of food or water, the adults stop making babies.
> 
> In other species, this means they stop having sex. In our species, we will keep having sex but sterilize ourselves (whether medically or just because Nature has Her hand in this) and stop having babies and thus, slow down the overpopulation. Voila, everyone's happy and still getting sex.
> 
> If adults can create enough wealth for themselves to care for their own twilight years, which is significantly easier to do if you don't make any babies, then those who choose to be childless or have it chosen for them (by Nature) don't have to rely on those unborn kids to cover those costs.
> 
> No other species uses their young to carry their old. It is every creature for itself at the end.



Yes, and I wonder if both this group and MGTOW are stress related self imposed lack of offspring.

For MGTOW, bitterness and the shock of divorce cause them to avoid women or relationships and so be celibate or only have some ONS.

My wife says the "no kids" group are driven by the pressure and stress of modern life. In a sense the modern economy and technology has replaced their culture in just one generation. They do not live in the world their parents lived in. They can't see a way forward and so are sort of in a holding pattern.


----------



## Faithful Wife

NotEasy said:


> My limited understanding of MGTOW is that some of them are so bitter about divorce, child support, marriage breakup etc that they are imposing celibacy on themselves. But to do so within a relationship seems too crazy even for the MGTOW group.


They just advocate having no relationships. They advocate using sex workers for sex and surrogates for babies.

Like the story of my acquaintance I posted about earlier though, what MGTOW men don't say (or maybe don't know) is that surrogacy and adoption agencies will not place them with anyone, because they only place babies with loving, two parent couples. Raging women haters don't stand a chance (and they can't hide it, the agencies do a very thorough check on you and get to know you....an angry, bitter single man is not hard for them to spot).

At least they can still have sex with sex workers, though, which is fine, IMO. They really shouldn't reproduce.


----------



## Youngster

You know what surprises me the most? That a new poster, creates a thread in the men's clubhouse titled "Guy's, what are your thoughts about MGTOW?". Now this thread was clearly aimed at Men(notice the whole guy reference) but by post 5 there are already women commenting on the subject.

Personally I think the MGTOW people are fruits but really, do the ladies NEED to jump into a thread that was clearly not meant for their input? REALLY? I mean, that's great that you have strong feelings about the subject but from my perspective you weren't asked to participate. 

To the mods, just a suggestion but it would be a neat feature to be able to only allow input to a thread by gender(like when you start a thread). That would give BOTH genders a place to discuss subjects without the inevitable downward flush into gender war.......


----------



## ocotillo

Anon Pink said:


> @ocotillo, I think it hurts the MGTOW movement. As stated earlier, the men's movement is really a protest against the unfair divorce laws, which makes sense. Except for the fact that it does nothing to actually help men achieve better relationships. Whereas in China, the women aren't really protesting anything. They are willing to take their lumps (cultural derision for being unmarried and childless) in order to stick to their standards.


I think you're probably right and maybe I'm just misunderstanding. Based on the three videos the OP linked to, the fundamental gripe of these people seems to go much deeper than marriage law itself. It hard to pin that down when it's explained as a series of disjointed anecdotes and examples though.


----------



## Thundarr

Youngster said:


> To the mods, just a suggestion but it would be a neat feature to be able to only allow input to a thread by gender(like when you start a thread). That would give BOTH genders a place to discuss subjects without the inevitable downward flush into gender war.......


Threads for men only and women only? That would be gasoline on the gender divide. Personally I like being able to chime in on any particular thread.


----------



## soccermom2three

I don't even understand this debate.

If there are MGTOW then by all means they should go their own way. If there are radical feminists, then by all means go have fun being radical.

There are ALWAYS going to be men and women in the middle that find each other and want to be together.


----------



## Thundarr

soccermom2three said:


> I don't even understand this debate.
> 
> If there are MGTOW then by all means they should go their own way. If there are radical feminists, then by all means go have fun being radical.
> 
> There are ALWAYS going to be men and women in the middle that find each other and want to be together.


Same here. In my view, this happens when we focus on labels for each other. So what is MGTOW? Just some ideas that guys grasp onto for different reasons; some good and some bad. Similar can be said about feminism. I mean some guys really do need to go their own way. And they're all uniquely different and need to do so for their own set of reasons.

The thing that's annoying in threads like this though is the passive aggressive jabs about unworthy and socially incapable guys and their sour grapes MGTOW.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Thundarr said:


> The thing that's annoying in threads like this though is the passive aggressive jabs about unworthy and socially incapable guys and their sour grapes MGTOW.


The thing that's annoying in threads like this to me is the few men who are constantly blaming every problem they face on women and/or feminism. I'm not going to ignore that crap and am not going to avoid commenting. And if there were women on threads at TAM who were blaming every problem they face on men, I would be happy to see men and women both commenting about how ridiculous this is, no matter what the thread title was and no matter what section the post was in.

As long as there are men telling women that they are hypergamous, greedy people who are on the c*ck carousel, I'm going to be making rebuttals and pointing out the sheer nastiness of their position.

Not sorry.


----------



## Anon Pink

NotEasy said:


> I heard the Indian gender ratio is even more skewed. And the females are also behaving in similar ways. They demand their husband have similar or better education, employment and wealth. Some Indian males see this as an affront.
> 
> Sadly the way I heard about this was from Indian ex-pat co-workers. Thankfully they say the preference for sons is less in the local community than back home.
> 
> One of them was quietly considering sending his son back to India to find a suitable wife. He considered the local girls too independent. He didn't talk about it much, but I gather it is a fairly common trend. He saw it as helping the mother country. The others ridiculed him and the idea. The poor girl will be plucked from the country-side and moved to a big foreign city with a new culture. They say most of these marriages fail.
> 
> .....
> 
> The scary thing is there is supposedly a bitterness growing among the many young chinese males who can't get wives, housing or employment. Chinese ex-pats have described it as very large and potentially violent. Sort of the boxer rebellion all over again. I think we can ignore the MGTOW movement, I fear the Chinese group wont be able to be ignored if it happens.



This actually infuriates me. These patriarchal cultures that give no value to women within their culture now find themselves on the brink of revolution. The effects of marginalizing women caused women to find their own merit, their own way, and they've left their men behind. Yet, does this chasm between the sexes get bridged? Are there better attempts at equality, at valuing baby girls as much as baby boys, daughters as well as sons? No, they just want women to be put back in their place and concerned father's send their sons to the poor country side to find a woman not yet elevated by her own work ethic.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Youngster said:


> You know what surprises me the most? That a new poster, creates a thread in the men's clubhouse titled "Guy's, what are your thoughts about MGTOW?". Now this thread was clearly aimed at Men(notice the whole guy reference) but by post 5 there are already women commenting on the subject.
> 
> Personally I think the MGTOW people are fruits but really, do the ladies NEED to jump into a thread that was clearly not meant for their input? REALLY? I mean, that's great that you have strong feelings about the subject but from my perspective you weren't asked to participate.
> 
> To the mods, just a suggestion but it would be a neat feature to be able to only allow input to a thread by gender(like when you start a thread). That would give BOTH genders a place to discuss subjects without the inevitable downward flush into gender war.......


MGTOW itself is the gender war. And yes, I'm one of the ladies that will not be quiet about it because I think it is poisonous and am shocked that men at TAM actually support that crap. Why are they even here "talking about marriage" when they really think men should go their own way because evil, horrible women are holding them down in life. We have a handful of posters who really post nothing except to tell us women that we are nothing but horrible and are the reason for all of their problems. I will not be quiet to those posters no matter what thread they are spouting off on. They sure don't hold back in telling me and women in general how horrible we are by our very hypergamous natures.

Not being asked to participate on this thread doesn't stop me from responding, and never will....because I call out crap when I see it.

Again, you probably don't see all the women bashing by these few posters on ANY kind of thread, all over TAM...they don't just keep those comments into one thread about MGTOW, they spread it everywhere. If those topics were limited to certain threads and weren't sprinkled everywhere, I would be more likely to stay out of them. But as long as there is a wide spread attack on women using the typical Red Pill jargon all over TAM, I will be counter-attacking the mindset on any thread I see it on.

Again, not sorry.

The way to have conversations where you exclude others is to create a social group so men who don't like me or other women posting on threads like this one can easily make that happen and talk among yourselves.


----------



## Anon Pink

No one should be silent in the face of attempts to marginalize half the population!


----------



## Thundarr

Faithful Wife said:


> The thing that's annoying in threads like this to me is the few men who are constantly blaming every problem they face on women and/or feminism. I'm not going to ignore that crap and am not going to avoid commenting. And if there were women on threads at TAM who were blaming every problem they face on men, I would be happy to see men and women both commenting about how ridiculous this is, no matter what the thread title was and no matter what section the post was in.
> 
> As long as there are men telling women that they are hypergamous, greedy people who are on the c*ck carousel, I'm going to be making rebuttals and pointing out the sheer nastiness of their position.
> 
> Not sorry.


Yet this thread and many other's don't need to be so adversarial. Every comment made about a given concept isn't a slam. It's not surprise that some men will grasp onto an idea like this that let's them blame others for their own failures? Well so what. Lots of ideas are used by people to rationalize what they do or think.

The plain ole definition of MGTOW without a particular slaint put on it just doesn't look all that offensive or extrodinary to me. Some men need to go their own way. Big deal. Some women need to do the same. Big deal. Some of these men and women are decent people.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I'm not addressing the men who are at the MGTOW sites, I'm addressing the ones who say their hateful crap right here at TAM. I have every right to do so, just as they have every right to spew their hateful crap. Again, not sorry. The adversarial nature of their hateful crap is what causes the adversarial nature of my replies.


----------



## Mr. Nail

The Group is pretty much Lunatic Fringe, really. But some of the ideas, without the generalized hate, are useful for some. And when someone said Men in general go their own way it resonated true. We don't need some one to tell us what to wear, or when to settle down. We got this.


----------



## Youngster

Thundarr said:


> Threads for men only and women only? That would be gasoline on the gender divide. Personally I like being able to chime in on any particular thread.


But there are posters who at times ONLY want an opinion from a man or woman. The purpose of the discussion should be to help the thread starter, not entertain the masses.

For instance, if I have questions concerning say, a prostate problem. I might want a man's perspective or opinion. I certainly don't want to hear "well my husband, blah blah blah....". I'm sure there are a multitude of topics that women have where they would only like to hear women's opinion. 

This happens all the time on TAM and it rapidly sidetracks threads.

I think it would be a great OPTION for the thread starter....so he or she doesn't have to feel like they need to police their own thread.


----------



## soccermom2three

So if my husband had a similar prostate problem, or whatever other male health problem, you wouldn't want to know what worked or didn't work for him. What if he was successfully cured?


----------



## Youngster

soccermom2three said:


> So if my husband had a similar prostate problem, or whatever other male health problem, you wouldn't want to know what worked or didn't work for him. What if he was successfully cured?


If I was only asking for men's opinions.....sorry but no. 

I can see where an OP might miss a lot of good info, but in many cases I can see where it would be helpful to only hear from someone's own gender. Even given the anonymity of TAM, I can see where many would have problems addressing members of the other gender concerning personal matters. 

Really, I think it would be a great OPTION for the thread starter to have. I also think it would squash a lot of these gender war threads.

Take this thread for instance, 14 pages now and it's the same crap as last week, and the week before, and the week before........


----------



## tech-novelist

Thundarr said:


> Same here. In my view, this happens when we focus on labels for each other. So what is MGTOW? Just some ideas that guys grasp onto for different reasons; some good and some bad. Similar can be said about feminism. I mean some guys really do need to go their own way. And they're all uniquely different and need to do so for their own set of reasons.
> 
> The thing that's annoying in threads like this though is the passive aggressive jabs about unworthy and socially incapable guys and their sour grapes MGTOW.


No, you don't understand.

*Any* post that in *any* way suggests that men have *any* valid complaints about either feminism or the (totally fair) divorce-industrial complex is misogynistic!

Hope that helps.


----------



## Faithful Wife

technovelist said:


> No, you don't understand.
> 
> *Any* post that in *any* way suggests that men have *any* valid complaints about either feminism or the (totally fair) divorce-industrial complex is misogynistic!
> 
> Hope that helps.


Any post that is about women or dating or love or sex is a target for you coming in to talk about these red pill issues, even if nothing about divorce or feminism is mentioned. Since you have no qualms about bringing those topics up on every and any thread you please, even the ones where these are not even close to being the topic, I have no qualms about responding in anyway I choose to you or any of the handful of other guys who do the same thing. Hope that helps!


----------



## Anubis

technovelist said:


> No, you don't understand.
> 
> *Any* post that in *any* way suggests that men have *any* valid complaints about either feminism or the (totally fair) divorce-industrial complex is misogynistic!
> 
> Hope that helps.





Faithful Wife said:


> Any post that is about women or dating or love or sex is a target for you coming in to talk about these red pill issues, even if nothing about divorce or feminism is mentioned. Since you have no qualms about bringing those topics up on every and any thread you please, even the ones where these are not even close to being the topic, I have no qualms about responding in anyway I choose to you or any of the handful of other guys who do the same thing. Hope that helps!


And this is why we can't have nice things...


----------



## NotEasy

Youngster said:


> You know what surprises me the most? That a new poster, creates a thread in the men's clubhouse titled "Guy's, what are your thoughts about MGTOW?". Now this thread was clearly aimed at Men(notice the whole guy reference) but by post 5 there are already women commenting on the subject.
> 
> Personally I think the MGTOW people are fruits but really, do the ladies NEED to jump into a thread that was clearly not meant for their input? REALLY? I mean, that's great that you have strong feelings about the subject but from my perspective you weren't asked to participate.
> 
> To the mods, just a suggestion but it would be a neat feature to be able to only allow input to a thread by gender(like when you start a thread). That would give BOTH genders a place to discuss subjects without the inevitable downward flush into gender war.......


Whilst I dislike the gender bashing, I fear gender specific threads will promote isolation not understanding. I fear a male threads will be a breeding ground for MGTOW ideas.


----------



## NotEasy

Anon Pink said:


> This actually infuriates me. These patriarchal cultures that give no value to women within their culture now find themselves on the brink of revolution. The effects of marginalizing women caused women to find their own merit, their own way, and they've left their men behind. Yet, does this chasm between the sexes get bridged? Are there better attempts at equality, at valuing baby girls as much as baby boys, daughters as well as sons? No, they just want women to be put back in their place and concerned father's send their sons to the poor country side to find a woman not yet elevated by her own work ethic.


This infuriates me too. I have a daughter. Anyone who says she is not worth as much as a son will not get a polite response.

I agree with everything up to the last sentence. Many poor chinese country women are not stuck there because of poor work ethic. They work very hard and selflessly support their parents. They do what is expected of them, and they do the best they can given the options society gives them. The gender bias pushes city boys to university and girls to receptionist jobs, in the countryside the same bias pushes boys to city jobs, and the girls to work the farm and support the elders. So poor country girls are stuck working very long hours running farms with too few workers and with no hope of advancement. For them moving to the city is the easy life of working shorter hours.

One option I heard country girls jump at is being a temporary tourist guide. Ex-pat chinese who return to find their village, or just want to see the countryside want a local guide. Even backpackers pay more for a guide than these poor locals earn. The tourists sleep in, sit around alot, eat well and pay very well. So their work ethic sees local girls studying languages and organising in the chance of a few days of this work.

I doubt you meant it, but the last sentence edges toward an MGTOW like idea of "well she was just a SAHM, so she doesn't deserve half of everything after our divorce". 

And yes you touched a nerve. I grew up in the country, where many poor kids were working harder than I could to try and keep the family farm afloat.


----------



## Youngster

NotEasy said:


> Whilst I dislike the gender bashing, I fear gender specific threads will promote isolation not understanding. I fear a male threads will be a breeding ground for MGTOW ideas.


Really though, is someone who believes in the MGTOW crap going to listen to a woman? No way, all the women are going to do is make this guy even more radical. The same with the ulta-feminists....they aren't going to listen to me or any man. 

It's up to the men to stand up to the MGTOW crowd and present valid arguments counter to the movement.....just like it's up to the women to stand up to the ultra-feminists and present valid arguments counter to that movement. Even if the men(or women in their case) fail to respond to a OP, without the vitriol the thread is going to die pretty quickly. If things get too out of control the mods can always lock or delete the thread.

Another point concerning a gender specific thread option, look at the Men's clubhouse this very instant. On the first page there are 8 threads specifically asking for men's input(see below). In nearly all the threads a woman jumps in within the first dozen posts. 

I know some of the threads below are silly but still, if the OP wanted a gender specific thread they should be able to specify it. It seems at TAM we are too self-righteous to allow the other gender to speak amongst themselves!



Guys, what are your thoughts about MGTOW.
(Woman is 5th post in thread)

Men: can you handle the kitchen better than a woman.
(Woman is 6th post in thread)

OK Men, who's your team.
(Woman is 10th post in thread)

Could I get some men's opinions?
(Woman is 2nd post in thread)

Need a males perspective.
(Woman is 4th post in thread)

Question for the guys?
(Woman is 9th post in thread)

Men can you dig deep and help me better understand?
(Woman is 8th post in thread)

Men what are your physical turnoffs?
(A woman other than the OP didn't respond until the 3rd page)


----------



## Lila

@Youngster, most of the threads started by this particular poster are definitely pushing an anti-feminist / woman hating agenda. "It" starts threads with high probability of starting a gender war, then never returns to them. Starts and abandons threads leaving the rest of us arguing among each other. Many of the them were started in the Ladies Lounge but the majority of the responders were male.

Politics
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/politi...s-unwilling-help-women-seedy-professions.html

Ladies Lounge
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/288450-why-obsessive-compulsions-mainly-man-thing.html
* every poster except 1 was a male.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies...-think-cavewomen-would-have-communicated.html
Half the posters on the first page were male.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/271921-would-you-like-live-female-dominated-world.html
1st response was a female….then the next female was 12th.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies...think-about-women-spell-women-womyn-such.html
1st man to post was 4th. Then it was open season after that.

In general, if someone is only looking for a particular gender's response, then my advise is to skip the posts from those people not meeting that particular requirement. Easy Peezy. Everyone goes home happy. :smile2:


----------



## Anon Pink

NotEasy said:


> This infuriates me too. I have a daughter. Anyone who says she is not worth as much as a son will not get a polite response.
> 
> I agree with everything up to the last sentence. Many poor chinese country women are not stuck there because of poor work ethic. They work very hard and selflessly support their parents. They do what is expected of them, and they do the best they can given the options society gives them. The gender bias pushes city boys to university and girls to receptionist jobs, in the countryside the same bias pushes boys to city jobs, and the girls to work the farm and support the elders. So poor country girls are stuck working very long hours running farms with too few workers and with no hope of advancement. For them moving to the city is the easy life of working shorter hours.
> 
> One option I heard country girls jump at is being a temporary tourist guide. Ex-pat chinese who return to find their village, or just want to see the countryside want a local guide. Even backpackers pay more for a guide than these poor locals earn. The tourists sleep in, sit around alot, eat well and pay very well. So their work ethic sees local girls studying languages and organising in the chance of a few days of this work.
> 
> I doubt you meant it, but the last sentence edges toward an MGTOW like idea of "well she was just a SAHM, so she doesn't deserve half of everything after our divorce".
> 
> And yes you touched a nerve. I grew up in the country, where many poor kids were working harder than I could to try and keep the family farm afloat.



I apologize that my poorly chosen words could be construed in such a derogatory way. That was not at ALL what I intended with my comment. 

What I meant was that women had pulled themselves up and have achieved more, comparatively, than men. The work ethic was directed toward under achieving men, comparatively. Not at all directed toward those on the countryside.


----------



## Youngster

Lila said:


> @Youngster, most of the threads started by this particular poster are definitely pushing an anti-feminist / woman hating agenda. "It" starts threads with high probability of starting a gender war, then never returns to them. Starts and abandons threads leaving the rest of us arguing among each other. Many of the them were started in the Ladies Lounge but the majority of the responders were male.
> 
> Politics
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/politi...s-unwilling-help-women-seedy-professions.html
> 
> Ladies Lounge
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/288450-why-obsessive-compulsions-mainly-man-thing.html
> * every poster except 1 was a male.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies...-think-cavewomen-would-have-communicated.html
> Half the posters on the first page were male.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/271921-would-you-like-live-female-dominated-world.html
> 1st response was a female….then the next female was 12th.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies...think-about-women-spell-women-womyn-such.html
> 1st man to post was 4th. Then it was open season after that.
> 
> In general, if someone is only looking for a particular gender's response, then my advise is to skip the posts from those people not meeting that particular requirement. Easy Peezy. Everyone goes home happy. :smile2:


Certainly there are many posters that push this crap and they should be banned for it. I believe these type of threads are inherently counter to what TAM is about. 

You're correct but it's often not easy to wade through the posts you don't want to read. Often they completely derail the entire thread. It would be nice to be able to add posters to an ignore list, so you don't even need to wade through their nonsense posts or threads.


----------



## NotEasy

Youngster said:


> Really though, is someone who believes in the MGTOW crap going to listen to a woman? No way, all the women are going to do is make this guy even more radical. The same with the ulta-feminists....they aren't going to listen to me or any man.
> 
> It's up to the men to stand up to the MGTOW crowd and present valid arguments counter to the movement.....just like it's up to the women to stand up to the ultra-feminists and present valid arguments counter to that movement. Even if the men(or women in their case) fail to respond to a OP, without the vitriol the thread is going to die pretty quickly. If things get too out of control the mods can always lock or delete the thread.
> 
> Another point concerning a gender specific thread option, look at the Men's clubhouse this very instant. On the first page there are 8 threads specifically asking for men's input(see below). In nearly all the threads a woman jumps in within the first dozen posts.
> 
> I know some of the threads below are silly but still, if the OP wanted a gender specific thread they should be able to specify it.  It seems at TAM we are too self-righteous to allow the other gender to speak amongst themselves!
> 
> 
> 
> Guys, what are your thoughts about MGTOW.
> (Woman is 5th post in thread)
> 
> Men: can you handle the kitchen better than a woman.
> (Woman is 6th post in thread)
> 
> OK Men, who's your team.
> (Woman is 10th post in thread)
> 
> Could I get some men's opinions?
> (Woman is 2nd post in thread)
> 
> Need a males perspective.
> (Woman is 4th post in thread)
> 
> Question for the guys?
> (Woman is 9th post in thread)
> 
> Men can you dig deep and help me better understand?
> (Woman is 8th post in thread)
> 
> Men what are your physical turnoffs?
> (A woman other than the OP didn't respond until the 3rd page)


Certainly men listen to other men telling them they are being dumb, more than they listen to women saying the same thing. And I think we should clean up our own side of the street first.

But I don't see that women can't correct men.

When I am being an idiot, I would prefer to be corrected quickly. If a woman is first to correct me then fine let it be so.

I suspect part of the reason the MGTOW movement is so crazy it is is an isolated community talking to itself. But having only bothered to start watching two of their video, what do I know. I can't summon the interest to dive in and try to politely correct these guys. If someone else (even a woman) can summon the interest then let them do so.

The numbers you posted don't seem terrible. If I guess an average of 5th post is a woman, and further wildly guess this might mean 20% of posts were from woman, this doesn't seem too bad.

The silly posts and thread jacks seem a bigger problem. But I have no answer to that.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Youngster said:


> Certainly there are many posters that push this crap and they should be banned for it. I believe these type of threads are inherently counter to what TAM is about.
> 
> You're correct but it's often not easy to wade through the posts you don't want to read. Often they completely derail the entire thread. *It would be nice to be able to add posters to an ignore list*, so you don't even need to wade through their nonsense posts or threads.


You can. Right there in your profile. 

Or people can do as Lila suggested and just not read the posts or posters that they don't want to read. This is easy enough to do. Most of us have been around for awhile and others know what gender we are and what we generally have to say.

As Lila pointed out, the OP on this thread has no desire to actually discuss anything...he or she just drops these bombs and then splits. He or she isn't the one coming back and saying "hey I just wanted to hear from guys here!" Not that it would matter if he or she did because we're all free to post where ever we want on this board. But to those who think "oh the poor OP just wanted to hear from guys", um doubtful the OP is even still reading.


----------



## tom67

I am obviously older than Turd Flinging Monkey and not a gamer but he has a good vid on who to watch and yes some I don't agree with but here it is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt8Ew6-llRY

And that's it on this thread bruh bruhs.


----------



## Dycedarg

Faithful Wife said:


> The thing that's annoying in threads like this to me is the few men who are constantly blaming every problem they face on women and/or feminism. I'm not going to ignore that crap and am not going to avoid commenting. And if there were women on threads at TAM who were blaming every problem they face on men, I would be happy to see men and women both commenting about how ridiculous this is, no matter what the thread title was and no matter what section the post was in.
> 
> As long as there are men telling women that they are hypergamous, greedy people who are on the c*ck carousel, I'm going to be making rebuttals and pointing out the sheer nastiness of their position.
> 
> Not sorry.


I'm sincerely not trying to be rude, but have you looked at the tone of your own posts? I realize there are people who are going to be nasty to each other but do you notice that you kind of sound like the very type of person you're fighting against? 

Someone already stated it but this is primarily a men's forum. I think your ideas should be a welcome addition, and you should be able to feel free to offer them, but it seems like you're becoming just a little vindictive. That could prove to distract from the discourse that people are trying to cultivate. I don't know your story but you seem to be a good person so again, I'm not trying to be rude. Just making a gentle observation 



Thundarr said:


> Same here. In my view, this happens when we focus on labels for each other. So what is MGTOW? Just some ideas that guys grasp onto for different reasons; some good and some bad. Similar can be said about feminism. I mean some guys really do need to go their own way. And they're all uniquely different and need to do so for their own set of reasons.
> 
> The thing that's annoying in threads like this though is the passive aggressive jabs about unworthy and socially incapable guys and their sour grapes MGTOW.


Very well put. There are many guys who "go their own way", who are not bitter, or living with a chip on their shoulder. They certainly are aware that there are good women out there, even if they have met some bad experiences. 

We can really call it whatever we want. "Going their own way." "Gaining perspective." The phrasing isn't really important, and maybe the stigma associated with that phrase is detracting from some of the more useful aspects of the movement. 

Not to say it doesn't have potential issues. Whatever doesn't?


----------



## Thundarr

Youngster said:


> But there are posters who at times ONLY want an opinion from a man or woman. The purpose of the discussion should be to help the thread starter, not entertain the masses.


If I were specifically looking for male or female input then it would be useful to know who is male versus who is female but that's all. Not allowing all men or all women from particular threads or sections is just opposite to what TAM is supposed to represent. I mean if a forum created to help men and women have successful marriages together can't promote objective gender neutral discussion then it wouldn't be much of a forum would it?


----------



## Nynaeve

Dycedarg said:


> I'm sincerely not trying to be rude, but have you looked at the tone of your own posts? I realize there are people who are going to be nasty to each other but do you notice that you kind of sound like the very type of person you're fighting against?


Tone isn't the issue. This isn't about someone failing to say things nicely. The substance is the issue. People can say really vile thing in a pleasant tone.

And some vile things don't deserve to be answered in a pleasant tone.

Basically, your complaint is what is known as "tone trolling."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ocotillo

If I'm understanding the gripe of these MGTOW people correctly, (And like I said, maybe I'm not) it seems to be directed more towards society at large. 

We've had discussions on TAM about feminism and whether there are any legitimate criticisms that can be leveled against it. Sane, rational people ask the question, "What could possibly be objectionable or wrong about the idea of equality?" --And the answer to that is self apparent. There's nothing whatsoever objectionable or wrong about equality.

Unfortunately though, the dialogue that should be advancing us towards that goal has become littered with terms and _a priori_ assumptions coined and thought up by people far less sane and rational than those posing the question above. The MGTOW crowd strikes me as mostly wingnuts, but it also strikes me as evidence that people are tiring of the tone of the conversation.


----------



## Dycedarg

Nynaeve said:


> Tone isn't the issue. This isn't about someone failing to say things nicely. The substance is the issue. People can say really vile thing in a pleasant tone.
> 
> And some vile things don't deserve to be answered in a pleasant tone.
> 
> Basically, your complaint is what is known as "tone trolling."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nah, this is a multi-pronged issue, but the thing I was pointing out was the irony in the post that was talking about nastiness. You misidentified it, though. I'm not making a complaint, just an observation.


----------



## Youngster

Thundarr said:


> If I were specifically looking for male or female input then it would be useful to know who is male versus who is female but that's all. Not allowing all men or all women from particular threads or sections is just opposite to what TAM is supposed to represent. I mean if a forum created to help men and women have successful marriages together can't promote objective gender neutral discussion then it wouldn't be much of a forum would it?


So in your opinion ANY subject should be able to be discussed by ANYONE on TAM, regardless of the OP wishes? So I guess we really aren't looking to help people then are we?


----------



## Cletus

Youngster said:


> So in your opinion ANY subject should be able to be discussed by ANYONE on TAM, regardless of the OP wishes? So I guess we really aren't looking to help people then are we?


How can limiting input to one gender improve the help available? 

Anyone wishing to ignore posts by one side or the other is always free to do so - there aren't all that many gender ambiguous posters 'round here anyway. If someone asks for responses from men or women only, it's reasonable to honor that request. But just because a topic is posted in the men's section doesn't mean that only male input is valued or desired, does it?


----------



## Youngster

Cletus said:


> How can limiting input to one gender improve the help available?
> 
> Anyone wishing to ignore posts by one side or the other is always free to do so - there aren't all that many gender ambiguous posters 'round here anyway. *If someone asks for responses from men or women only, it's reasonable to honor that request. *But just because a topic is posted in the men's section doesn't mean that only male input is valued or desired, does it?


But this never happens does it? I mean it never ever happens. Look at the threads in the Men's Clubhouse asking for male only input.

If a man or woman wants to talk about sex/health/relationship problems shouldn't THEY be able to ask who gets to respond, I mean they are the thread starter. If TAM is truly a site trying to help people shouldn't we give OP's as many options as possible?

Personally, I can think of many topics that I would rather discuss with only men. I can also think of some topics that I would only like feedback from women.


----------



## Lila

Youngster said:


> Certainly there are many posters that push this crap and they should be banned for it. *I believe these type of threads are inherently counter to what TAM is about. *
> 
> *You're correct but it's often not easy to wade through the posts you don't want to read. Often they completely derail the entire thread.* It would be nice to be able to add posters to an ignore list, so you don't even need to wade through their nonsense posts or threads.





Youngster said:


> So in your opinion ANY subject should be able to be discussed by ANYONE on TAM, regardless of the OP wishes? *So I guess we really aren't looking to help people then are we?*


It's been my experience that those who really wish to help an OP address their posts _to_ the OP and avoid getting into arguments with those offering different advise. 

This topic was started by someone who had no desire to be helped. Instead he/she started this thread to incite debate. So the bigger question is why respect an OP's wishes to exclude an entire gender from posting when he/she is starting "threads [that] are inherently counter to what TAM is about"?


----------



## Nynaeve

Dycedarg said:


> Nah, this is a multi-pronged issue, but the thing I was pointing out was the irony in the post that was talking about nastiness. You misidentified it, though. I'm not making a complaint, just an observation.


Nah, I didn't misidentify anything. You made a false equivalency. You're calling it irony. But using a sarcastic or abrasive tone when combatting misogyny does not make a person the same thing she is combatting. Tone is not the same thing as content.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dycedarg

Nynaeve said:


> Nah, I didn't misidentify anything. You made a false equivalency. You're calling it irony. But using a sarcastic or abrasive tone when combatting misogyny does not make a person the same thing she is combatting. Tone is not the same thing as content.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not misogyny, but the nastiness in the conversation, to which she was referring. 

The tone argument is a fallacy because someone accepts or refuses an argument someone makes based on their tone. I'm not rejecting her points, in fact I was sure to express that I think they should be welcomed. So at the very least you misidentified me. 

The nastiness being refuted was also being employed. Tone should not be the determining factor in weighing an argument, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dycedarg said:


> I'm sincerely not trying to be rude, but have you looked at the tone of your own posts? I realize there are people who are going to be nasty to each other but do you notice that you kind of sound like the very type of person you're fighting against?
> 
> Someone already stated it but this is primarily a men's forum. I think your ideas should be a welcome addition, and you should be able to feel free to offer them, but it seems like you're becoming just a little vindictive. That could prove to distract from the discourse that people are trying to cultivate. I don't know your story but you seem to be a good person so again, I'm not trying to be rude. Just making a gentle observation


Wow, that was gentle! And I honestly appreciate it.

The thing is, there are a small handful of posters here who go around posting nothing more than woman bashing, sickening, and completely frightening posts about how horrible women are. I meet these posters with my b*tch voice, and I make no apologies for it.

If you'll spend a little time and read some of my other posts, you'll see that I have great respect for almost all of the other people here and most of them are kind to me and I am to them. 

A couple of years ago when I first came here, the tone at TAM was full of so much more of these MRA types that they basically ran the place and were allowed to be constantly saying very disturbing and sickening things. I even got a threatening PM at one point from someone at an MRA site who signed up here JUST for the purpose of sending me that PM. Most of those posters have been banned now, and the tone is a lot better around here with far less MRA talk. Part of the reason for this is because I and a bunch of other women here began strongly and loudly complaining about those guys, reporting their posts, and generally taking a stand against their dangerous attitudes.

So most of that has settled down now...but like I said, we still have a few posters who never miss an opportunity to lay a post down that slams women and calls us hypergamous c*ck carousel riding fascists. And when I see those posts, I'm going to speak out against them.

I don't really care if I come across as a big meanie to these posters. They already think that about me (and they think women everywhere are ruining everything in their lives) so really there's no love lost at all.

But I do again appreciate the gentle nature of your post and I read it with good intent on your part. If I actually cared what those particular posters thought about me, I might try to tone myself down. But I don't. Thank you anyway though.


----------



## Youngster

Lila said:


> It's been my experience that those who really wish to help an OP address their posts _to_ the OP and avoid getting into arguments with those offering different advise.
> 
> This topic was started by someone who had no desire to be helped. Instead he/she started this thread to incite debate. So the bigger question is why respect an OP's wishes to exclude an entire gender from posting when he/she is starting "threads [that] are inherently counter to what TAM is about"?


This thread topic is nonsense and should have been deleted by page 1......

I'm threadjacking because I see a problem on TAM. 

Time and again I see a OP want advice from only men or only women. But the TAM faithful disregard the OP and jump in anyway.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Youngster said:


> I'm threadjacking because I see a problem on TAM.
> 
> Time and again I see a OP want advice from only men or only women. But the TAM faithful disregard the OP and jump in anyway.


Take it up with the mods. This topic has been discussed many times and their answer is, if you want to control who replies to you, open a social group.


----------



## Dycedarg

Faithful Wife said:


> Wow, that was gentle! And I honestly appreciate it.
> 
> The thing is, there are a small handful of posters here who go around posting nothing more than woman bashing, sickening, and completely frightening posts about how horrible women are. I meet these posters with my b*tch voice, and I make no apologies for it.
> 
> If you'll spend a little time and read some of my other posts, you'll see that I have great respect for almost all of the other people here and most of them are kind to me and I am to them.
> 
> A couple of years ago when I first came here, the tone at TAM was full of so much more of these MRA types that they basically ran the place and were allowed to be constantly saying very disturbing and sickening things. I even got a threatening PM at one point from someone at an MRA site who signed up here JUST for the purpose of sending me that PM. Most of those posters have been banned now, and the tone is a lot better around here with far less MRA talk. Part of the reason for this is because I and a bunch of other women here began strongly and loudly complaining about those guys, reporting their posts, and generally taking a stand against their dangerous attitudes.
> 
> So most of that has settled down now...but like I said, we still have a few posters who never miss an opportunity to lay a post down that slams women and calls us hypergamous c*ck carousel riding fascists. And when I see those posts, I'm going to speak out against them.
> 
> I don't really care if I come across as a big meanie to these posters. They already think that about me (and they think women everywhere are ruining everything in their lives) so really there's no love lost at all.
> 
> But I do again appreciate the gentle nature of your post and I read it with good intent on your part. If I actually cared what those particular posters thought about me, I might try to tone myself down. But I don't. Thank you anyway though.


Eh, touche'. And why should you care? If they're being rude and unsympathetic I suppose a similar dish is in order, haha. 

I think it's definitely wrong for people to label you as a c**k carousing anything. The bottom line is none of us really know each other all that well, at least not well enough to make a judgment like that. 

As the other poster already pointed out to me, sometimes an edge in a reply is warranted, and I would agree. I hope you just don't think that I'm like that- I do not think that women should be shunned for the sake of some perceived wrong, true or no, or shamed into acting a certain way. Thanks for being patient with me, Miss.


----------



## Youngster

Faithful Wife said:


> Take it up with the mods. This topic has been discussed many times and their answer is, if you want to control who replies to you, open a social group.


Don't like my posts....tough luck, take it up with the mods. 

Start a social group.....sure, a new poster looking for help is going to do that!


----------



## Faithful Wife

Youngster said:


> Don't like my posts....tough luck, take it up with the mods.


I didn't say I didn't like them. I just said that your plea for change isn't going to happen. Unless you can somehow convince the mods to change things.


----------



## 2&out

I think this thread and TAM may have been very helpful to me personally this past weekend. I asked my 19 year old son to read here for an hour or so and some of this thread. I think it made a pretty big impression.... I am pretty sure he is now applying the brakes to the seriousness of his personal Gfriend relationship. He commented on a "man" thread with so many women saying the mens opinion or comments are wrong and/or unjustified. I looked at him and laughed, and then he did too.

Thank you TAM.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ocotillo said:


> The MGTOW crowd strikes me as mostly wingnuts, but it also strikes me as evidence that *people are tiring* of the tone of the conversation.


If by "people" you mean men who are angry that they can't get laid, then sure.


----------



## Dycedarg

2&out said:


> I think this thread and TAM may have been very helpful to me personally this past weekend. I asked my 19 year old son to read here for an hour or so and some of this thread. I think it made a pretty big impression.... I am pretty sure he is now applying the brakes to the seriousness of his personal Gfriend relationship. He commented on a "man" thread with so many women saying the mens opinion or comments are wrong and/or unjustified. I looked at him and laughed, and then he did too.
> 
> Thank you TAM.


Well, the vast majority of people on this site are either here because they are experiencing difficulties in marriage/relationships, or because they want to help people who are. 

I don't think it would be a good idea to look at the posts in a thread like this and decide that relationships are not worth the time. A lot of us are hurting as it is, and an emotionally charged issue like this thread makes discussion even more of a sensitive ordeal. 

If your son really came to the conclusion that he shouldn't date his gf just because of this thread I'd say he walked away with the wrong idea. If anything this thread shows that men and women are trying to understand each other, a feat many have thought futile for a long, long time.


----------



## Nynaeve

2&out said:


> I think this thread and TAM may have been very helpful to me personally this past weekend. I asked my 19 year old son to read here for an hour or so and some of this thread. I think it made a pretty big impression.... I am pretty sure he is now applying the brakes to the seriousness of his personal Gfriend relationship. He commented on a "man" thread with so many women saying the mens opinion or comments are wrong and/or unjustified. I looked at him and laughed, and then he did too.
> 
> Thank you TAM.


So... wait... Are you saying that your son believes that men can never have opinions that are wrong or unjustified? Or that it's wrong for women to be the ones to tell them that?

Is he going to be "applying the brakes to the seriousness" of his friendships with all his guy pals if he sees a thread on the internet where men tell other men that their opinions are wrong or unjustified? (Because... that's not actually a difficult thing to find.)


----------



## ocotillo

Faithful Wife said:


> If by "people" you mean men who are angry that they can't get laid, then sure.


That's probably a fair observation about some of them, but even people like Warren Farrell, who was involved in the feminist movement and actually served on the board of NOW get lumped under the MGTOW / Red Pill / Men's Rights labels. 

--Or even people like myself who reject the idea that gender relations can be accurately portrayed as a history of oppressed and oppressor are sometimes perceived as coming right up to and perhaps even crossing that line.


----------



## Thundarr

Youngster said:


> So in your opinion ANY subject should be able to be discussed by ANYONE on TAM, regardless of the OP wishes? So I guess we really aren't looking to help people then are we?


Yes anyone can chime in; within the forum rules of conduct. We do have moderators to prevent threads from being high-jacked which seems more relevant to your complaints. The thing is, I think they police sub forums like CWI where new posters come in vulnerable way more than the men's clubhouse or Ladies lounge or the political sections. The last part of your comment is a straw man. You assume it's helpful to OPs for them to be able to eliminate the other gender from providing input on their threads. Most of us don't agree with that at all and would consider that option harmful.


----------



## 2&out

My point wasn't to scare him away - it was to slow him down. His Gfriend is about as hot as a 19 year old girl gets - she is "into photography" because she's modeling some and interested in advertising. But not pursuing any higher education at this time. IMHO she is starting to smother him and taking some of his focus off what I think it needs to be right now in his life. My son is grinning with stars in his eyes as he fd*cks this major hot girl who clearly likes him and makes sure all know they are a couple. 

And I'm a parent.... right now to me this chicks future appears to be exploiting her extraordinary looks while she can and then my son down the road. I hope I'm wrong. I just don't see much personal drive. I'd like to see him marry someone who can support themselves professionally, attractive to him, and be a mental equal all his life. I am not against women or marriage. I am just trying to guide towards good long term decisions.


----------



## Mr. Nail

There are some things that men should understand before getting into a committed relationship. If the intended partner starts with the assumption that the man is wrong and / or unjustified, then it is certainly time to put the brakes to the seriousness of the relationship. Because a relationship of trust can not be built in an atmosphere of contempt. So the wrong until proved to be an exception attitude should be a red flag. This attitude is so much more prevalent in the general population than it is here, that if this young man found something to be worried about by reading here it was because he saw severe attitude problems in his intended reflected here. Or maybe he just realized how scary the marriage contract really is.
MN


----------



## 2&out

It was my way of cautioning him while things seem great and nothing could go wrong now, that isn't the reality. Take a step back... and think.


----------



## Sammy64

Faithful Wife said:


> If by "people" you mean men who are angry that they can't get laid, then sure.


This has to be ONE of the dumbest things i have read in a long time...


----------



## Marduk

2&out said:


> My point wasn't to scare him away - it was to slow him down. His Gfriend is about as hot as a 19 year old girl gets - she is "into photography" because she's modeling some and interested in advertising. But not pursuing any higher education at this time. IMHO she is starting to smother him and taking some of his focus off what I think it needs to be right now in his life. My son is grinning with stars in his eyes as he fd*cks this major hot girl who clearly likes him and makes sure all know they are a couple.
> 
> And I'm a parent.... right now to me this chicks future appears to be exploiting her extraordinary looks while she can and then my son down the road. I hope I'm wrong. I just don't see much personal drive. I'd like to see him marry someone who can support themselves professionally, attractive to him, and be a mental equal all his life. I am not against women or marriage. I am just trying to guide towards good long term decisions.


You never know.

I have an older buddy, and his daughters are extraordinarily beautiful. The older one used her beauty to coast, and then soon after she graduated university realized that she had always done that, then buckled down, went back and got a degree in a more profitable field, married her longtime boyfriend (who she made chase her around because she was so hot), settled down and had kids. She works very hard at being a mom and in her career, and seems to be a great (and beautiful) wife.

Just because they are beautiful and use it doesn't mean that they will coast their whole life, if they are good people.


----------



## Dycedarg

2&out said:


> My point wasn't to scare him away - it was to slow him down. His Gfriend is about as hot as a 19 year old girl gets - she is "into photography" because she's modeling some and interested in advertising. But not pursuing any higher education at this time. IMHO she is starting to smother him and taking some of his focus off what I think it needs to be right now in his life. My son is grinning with stars in his eyes as he fd*cks this major hot girl who clearly likes him and makes sure all know they are a couple.
> 
> And I'm a parent.... right now to me this chicks future appears to be exploiting her extraordinary looks while she can and then my son down the road. I hope I'm wrong. I just don't see much personal drive. I'd like to see him marry someone who can support themselves professionally, attractive to him, and be a mental equal all his life. I am not against women or marriage. I am just trying to guide towards good long term decisions.


Thank you for the clarification. This sheds a substantially different light on the matter.


----------



## bkyln309

2&out said:


> My point wasn't to scare him away - it was to slow him down. His Gfriend is about as hot as a 19 year old girl gets - she is "into photography" because she's modeling some and interested in advertising. But not pursuing any higher education at this time. IMHO she is starting to smother him and taking some of his focus off what I think it needs to be right now in his life. My son is grinning with stars in his eyes as he fd*cks this major hot girl who clearly likes him and makes sure all know they are a couple.
> 
> And I'm a parent.... right now to me this chicks future appears to be exploiting her extraordinary looks while she can and then my son down the road. I hope I'm wrong. I just don't see much personal drive. I'd like to see him marry someone who can support themselves professionally, attractive to him, and be a mental equal all his life. I am not against women or marriage. I am just trying to guide towards good long term decisions.



Im sure that is going to convince a young man not to date and do a hot girl! I think at this point intelligence or drive is probably not high on his list. Heck, most mid life men shoot for the stars when they are at best a 2 or 3 and the woman is an 8 or 9. And alot of time mid life men arent looking for substance over beauty either.


----------



## Youngster

Thundarr said:


> Yes anyone can chime in; within the forum rules of conduct. We do have moderators to prevent threads from being high-jacked which seems more relevant to your complaints. The thing is, I think they police sub forums like CWI where new posters come in vulnerable way more than the men's clubhouse or Ladies lounge or the political sections. The last part of your comment is a straw man. You assume it's helpful to OPs for them to be able to eliminate the other gender from providing input on their threads. Most of us don't agree with that at all and would consider that option harmful.


So I'll throw out a very real topic. I have prostate problems. Very big prostate problems. 

My problems are embarrassing, painful, frustrating and sometimes quite scary. If I opened a thread in which I only wanted to discuss this topic with guys(for a WHOLE lot of reasons) I wouldn't be able to. The fact that I can't discuss this specifically with guys prevents me from opening a thread on the subject. 

Now you can tell me the ladies of TAM could have a whole lot of useful information which is probably true. They may even know a lot about prostate problems(like my FORMER female Urologist who said retrograde ejaculation was no big deal). 

But there are topics that I only want to discuss with a guy, because only a guy, with the same issues, can address my fears and concerns. 

So go ahead and tell me I'm in the wrong for having my opinion on gender based threads, but until you walk a mile in my shoes, you can't possibly see the issue from my perspective.


----------



## ocotillo

Yes, but neither the diagnosis nor the treatment of a prostrate problem purports to teach us, *"The ugly truth about female nature"* like the author of the videos linked to by the OP does.

You can hardly blame a woman for being upset about that.


----------



## Youngster

ocotillo said:


> Yes, but neither the diagnosis nor the treatment of a prostrate problem purports to teach us, *"The ugly truth about female nature"* like the author of the videos linked to by the OP does.
> 
> You can hardly blame a woman for being upset about that.


I'll say it again, the thread should have been nuked at page 1. 

But are you trying to say my health problems are less important than a stupid ignorant video? That someones hurt feelings trump my real health problems?


----------



## Cletus

Youngster said:


> I'll say it again, the thread should have been nuked at page 1.
> 
> But are you trying to say my health problems are less important than a stupid ignorant video? That someones hurt feelings trump my real health problems?


No, but I might say that your own hurt feelings are trumping your real health problems if you won't post a question that might be read and responded to by women.


----------



## Youngster

Cletus said:


> No, but I might say that your own hurt feelings are trumping your real health problems if you won't post a question that might be read and responded to by women.


That may or may not be the case, but since it's my health it's my choice isn't it? Like I said before, walk a mile in my shoes and maybe you'll see things from my perspective.


----------



## Thundarr

Youngster said:


> So I'll throw out a very real topic. I have prostate problems. Very big prostate problems.
> 
> My problems are embarrassing, painful, frustrating and sometimes quite scary. If I opened a thread in which I only wanted to discuss this topic with guys(for a WHOLE lot of reasons) I wouldn't be able to. The fact that I can't discuss this specifically with guys prevents me from opening a thread on the subject.


I see your point now. I think a problem preventing something like this is that we don't have to specify our gender (unless I've forgotten about it). And if there was a way to enforce it then I think we'd have a whole lot of members with two accounts so they could see and post on everything.


----------



## committed_guy

I don't know anything about this movement but after being married for 16 years I can understand.

If for some reason my wife and I are no longer married I will never marry again.

The problem is that people change. People only represent the best side of themselves during courtship. After you get married the real person comes out then you are financially screwed.

I am all for committed, monogamous, relationships but financially committed half of your net worth to someone who is guaranteed to change is crazy.


----------



## norajane

Youngster said:


> I'll say it again, the thread should have been nuked at page 1.
> 
> But are you trying to say my health problems are less important than a stupid ignorant video? That someones hurt feelings trump my real health problems?


No, I believe his point was that if you started a thread about your prostate issues asking for replies only from men, you would likely not get replies from women, or not many because that is not an inflammatory topic like videos bashing women. 

Yours is a personal request for a personal problem, and people will respect that (or are far more likely to). The video is inflammatory, and women are going to care very much about not letting that stand without rebuttal. A lot of women-bashing has gone on around here and, to keep it from becoming a board that freely bashes women, the women who post here refuse to be silent on threads spreading women-bashing.


----------



## Youngster

norajane said:


> No, I believe his point was that if you started a thread about your prostate issues asking for replies only from men, you would likely not get replies from women, or not many because that is not an inflammatory topic like videos bashing women.
> 
> Yours is a personal request for a personal problem, and people will respect that (or are far more likely to). The video is inflammatory, and women are going to care very much about not letting that stand without rebuttal. A lot of women-bashing has gone on around here and, to keep it from becoming a board that freely bashes women, the women who post here refuse to be silent on threads spreading women-bashing.
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by ocotillo View Post
> 
> Yes, but neither the diagnosis nor the treatment of a prostrate problem purports to teach us, "The ugly truth about female nature" like the author of the videos linked to by the OP does.
> 
> You can hardly blame a woman for being upset about that.


I certainly agree with a lot of what you said. The bashing/gender warfare threads need to stop.....personally I don't understand why these threads aren't nuked as soon as they're started. TAM seems really proficient at banning members but for some reason doesn't have the ability to delete threads that have no redeeming quality whatsoever. I suspect threads like this generate a lot of traffic....and I won't say anything else about that.

Sorry, I don't see the 2 sentences above in any way related to your well thought out post. Really, if that's the point he's trying to make maybe he should try to put a little more effort into the post.

As far as posters of TAM respecting a request on a personal problem, you're kidding right? You've been here a while, it doesn't happen. I'm sure you want the posters here to be more responsible (and respect a OP's wishes) as do I. But wishing it isn't going to make it happen. 

To make my point, for giggles I went back through the last 5 pages of the Men's Clubhouse. There are about 30ish threads asking for only a man's opinion. Guess how many of these threads were only replied to by men......that's right, ZERO. 

I bet if I opened a thread titled "Please, only men respond, my life depends on it." I'd be dead before it hit page 2! I'll also say that looking at the first page of the Ladies Lounge, the same problem exists there(men responding to threads where they weren't invited).

So, for myself, I REFUSE to post the issues that are most troubling to me because I don't feel that TAM is a safe place that will respect my request on a thread. If you disagree with how I feel that's fine, but it's certainly not going to change how I feel.


----------



## EleGirl

Youngster said:


> So I'll throw out a very real topic. I have prostate problems. Very big prostate problems.
> 
> My problems are embarrassing, painful, frustrating and sometimes quite scary. If I opened a thread in which I only wanted to discuss this topic with guys(for a WHOLE lot of reasons) I wouldn't be able to. The fact that I can't discuss this specifically with guys prevents me from opening a thread on the subject.
> 
> Now you can tell me the ladies of TAM could have a whole lot of useful information which is probably true. They may even know a lot about prostate problems(like my FORMER female Urologist who said retrograde ejaculation was no big deal).
> 
> But there are topics that I only want to discuss with a guy, because only a guy, with the same issues, can address my fears and concerns.
> 
> So go ahead and tell me I'm in the wrong for having my opinion on gender based threads, but until you walk a mile in my shoes, you can't possibly see the issue from my perspective.


Keep in mind that these are open forums. So you don't want to discuss things with women. But women can read your thread. Not sure if that bothers you.

You could make a comment in your opening post that you only want input from men.. that's it's a heath issue, so to please respect your request. I think that in that case, most women would respect your request.

Another way you could do it is to open a social group forum of your own and invite some men to join it.. it can be invitation only. That way only the people who you invite and read and post.


.


----------



## Youngster

EleGirl said:


> *Keep in mind that these are open forums. So you don't want to discuss things with women. But women can read your thread. Not sure if that bothers you.
> *
> 
> For some subjects, yes it might bother me but if I started a thread that's on me.
> 
> 
> *You could make a comment in your opening post that you only want input from men.. that's it's a heath issue, so to please respect your request. I think that in that case, most women would respect your request.
> *
> 
> Call me cynical but again I don't see it happening. Even you admit "most women" would respect my request. Those who would post in my thread(regardless of my wishes) are probably the ones with whom I would most not want in my thread. Even if I ignored their posts, or put them on ignore, that doesn't stop them from sidetracking my thread.
> 
> 
> *Another way you could do it is to open a social group forum of your own and invite some men to join it.. it can be invitation only. That way only the people who you invite and read and post.
> *
> 
> Well that's fine but how do I know I'm inviting men with the same issues as me? Just by the fact I'm creating a closed group would keep me from getting responses from a lot of guys. A new poster certainly wouldn't have any idea how to do this or even be able to grasp who to invite.
> .


Let me also say I think this could be really helpful to the ladies of TAM as well(being able to lock a thread based on gender). I could see women wanting support/advice/reassurance regarding pregnancy or any number of issues unique to women. I'm sure the last thing many ladies want to hear in a pregnancy thread is some guy barging in saying "my wife had 4 kids, pregnancy is no big deal".

If TAM really wants to help people, really wants to get close to the nerve of where posters are uncomfortable, then TAM needs to be a place where people feel safe to post.


----------



## Marduk

I've always thought of the "Men's Clubhouse" as a place where guys hang out to talk about guy stuff.

It doesn't mean that women can't come here and ask a question of guys about guy stuff, or add a woman's insight on guy stuff.

I've felt free as hell to post in the Ladies area... and I have to say, there seems to be a lot less angst about that over there. Even when I piss off FW.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I just understand the rules of the forum, which includes the right of anyone to post on any thread. So if I truly wanted only women's or only men's opinions about something, I would post at a different forum (there are plenty of others to choose from).


----------



## Youngster

marduk said:


> I've always thought of the "Men's Clubhouse" as a place where guys hang out to talk about guy stuff.
> 
> It doesn't mean that women can't come here and ask a question of guys about guy stuff, or add a woman's insight on guy stuff.
> 
> I've felt free as hell to post in the Ladies area... and I have to say, there seems to be a lot less angst about that over there. Even when I piss off FW.


I have no problem with guys/girls posting anywhere. The point I'm trying to make is what if a OP starts a thread saying "Please only guys respond" or "Please only girls respond", don't you think we should abide by their wishes? 

I mean, there would be no thread if not for the OP. Isn't it at the very least common courtesy to abide by their request of the thread?


----------



## Marduk

Youngster said:


> I have no problem with guys/girls posting anywhere. The point I'm trying to make is what if a OP starts a thread saying "Please only guys respond" or "Please only girls respond", don't you think we should abide by their wishes?


The problem is that what the are requesting contravenes how TAM works. So I guess you can ask it, but don't _expect_ people to listen to it, or get bent out of shape if they don't. It doesn't mean you can't expect respectful behaviour, and as long as it's compassionate from the opposite sex, who cares?


> I mean, there would be no thread if not for the OP. Isn't it at the very least common courtesy to abide by their request of the thread?


I get what you are saying. And, FWIW, if a ladies thread specifies that, I try to respect it.

The opposite arguement is that there's no way to validate someone's gender -- I could be a 95 year old hispanic woman living in Nigeria, for all you know. And I really struggle to understand a question that is posted on a marriage board that wouldn't find value from the opinion of the opposite sex.

But that's me.


----------



## Youngster

Faithful Wife said:


> I just understand the rules of the forum, which includes the right of anyone to post on any thread. So if I truly wanted only women's or only men's opinions about something, *I would post at a different forum *(there are plenty of others to choose from).


Which I do, there are excellent and discrete resources all over the web... 

Just because the rules state that anyone can post on any thread there are cases where people shouldn't post on a thread because of the OP's wishes. Do you think your right should trump an OP's request?

I mean, that's my perspective assuming that we're here trying to help people. If all we're about is getting our post and like count up then lets just say that and not pretend we're here for OP's seeking help.


----------



## Nynaeve

Am I the only one who sees the irony in complaining about people respecting an OP's wishes for a thread in a 3-page long thread-jack?


----------



## Youngster

marduk said:


> The problem is that what the are requesting contravenes how TAM works. So I guess you can ask it, but don't _expect_ people to listen to it, or get bent out of shape if they don't. It doesn't mean you can't expect respectful behaviour, and as long as it's compassionate from the opposite sex, who cares?
> 
> 
> I get what you are saying. And, FWIW, if a ladies thread specifies that, I try to respect it.
> 
> The opposite arguement is that there's no way to validate someone's gender -- *I could be a 95 year old hispanic woman *
> 
> I gotta tell you, your sharp for your age!
> :smile2:
> 
> living in Nigeria, for all you know. And I really struggle to understand a question that is posted on a marriage board that wouldn't find value from the opinion of the opposite sex.
> 
> But that's me.


If all we talk about here is marriage I'd somewhat agree. But OP's come here with all types of problems. Heck look back a page, I have issues that there is no way a woman can relate too. There are female issues such as pregnancy, menopause, periods that you or I couldn't possibly understand. 

I believe every profile has an associated gender with it. I can't believe it would be too difficult to only allow access to an area based on gender(kind of like how the private area works).


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## Youngster

Nynaeve said:


> Am I the only one who sees the irony in complaining about people respecting an OP's wishes for a thread in a 3-page long thread-jack?


If you want me to start a new thread I will.......then you can get back to talking about MGTOW, if that's what really gets you going? Honestly I think my threadjack is a better subject than the **** that was going on for the previous 14 pages.

Actually your right, I shouldn't have interrupted your meaningful conversation......I'm out.


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## Faithful Wife

Youngster said:


> Which I do, there are excellent and discrete resources all over the web...
> 
> Just because the rules state that anyone can post on any thread there are cases where people shouldn't post on a thread because of the OP's wishes. Do you think your right should trump an OP's request?
> 
> I mean, that's my perspective assuming that we're here trying to help people. If all we're about is getting our post and like count up then lets just say that and not pretend we're here for OP's seeking help.


I understand your perspective...just don't agree with it on this particular forum.

As far as I know, I have never (and would have no interest in) respond to a thread asking for men only for help that was of the nature of prostate issues or other men's health issues.

I did respond to Cletus's vasectomy thread once, but it did not ask for men only to respond.


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## Nynaeve

Youngster said:


> If you want me to start a new thread I will.......then you can get back to talking about MGTOW, if that's what really gets you going? Honestly I think my threadjack is a better subject than the **** that was going on for the previous 14 pages.
> 
> Actually your right, I shouldn't have interrupted your meaningful conversation......I'm out.


You're really invested in controlling this conversation, aren't you?

LOL.

Yes, I find the topic of MGTOW more interesting than your whining about how you wish TAM was. 

Yes, you should start your own thread if you want to talk about something else. If you don't think MGTOW is interesting, you don't have to read or post in this thread.

That's basically how forums work, Youngster.


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## Marduk

Nynaeve said:


> Am I the only one who sees the irony in complaining about people respecting an OP's wishes for a thread in a 3-page long thread-jack?


I'm just waiting for FW to tell me that I said something I didn't say, and then closing the thread before I can respond.

Then the circle would be complete.


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## Marduk

Public announcement: I was trying to be funny with my last post, not insult FW.


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## Faithful Wife

Thanks, marduk. FWIW, if you want to open a different thread to continue that other discussion, I would join you on it.


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## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Thanks, marduk. FWIW, if you want to open a different thread to continue that other discussion, I would join you on it.


Nah.

Just tried to PM you tho, it's full.


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## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> Public announcement: I was trying to be funny with my last post, not insult FW.


I think that was clear. I think the 2 of you have the hots for each other and need to get a room.


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## tom67

NobodySpecial said:


> I think that was clear. I think the 2 of you have the hots for each other and need to get a room.


And in other important news the mcrib is back.:grin2:


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## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> I think that was clear. I think the 2 of you have the hots for each other and need to get a room.


You're implying that there are females here that don't?

That just doesn't happen to me.

I guess it could be possible.


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## Faithful Wife

NobodySpecial said:


> I think that was clear. I think the 2 of you have the hots for each other and need to get a room.


No thanks, you can have him sweetie...I'm not into multiple partners.


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## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> No thanks, you can have him sweetie...I'm not into multiple partners.


DOH! That made me laugh out loud. Literally.


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## Forest

Youngster said:


> I have no problem with guys/girls posting anywhere. The point I'm trying to make is what if a OP starts a thread saying "Please only guys respond" or "Please only girls respond", don't you think we should abide by their wishes?
> 
> I mean, there would be no thread if not for the OP. Isn't it at the very least common courtesy to abide by their request of the thread?


The problem is, that when someone asks this, they are told they are selfish and controlling. Which is a hot one, as ignoring the wishes of another on such a trivial matter is also selfish and controlling.

Watch and see, the bait is in the water.


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## Marduk

I think one of the biggest problems with MGTOW is the acronym. It's not cool at all.

Why not something like Men's Elightened Normilization of Staying Ever Single.

Oops. MENSES. I bet they wouldn't like that.


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## ocotillo

---Diet Coke on my screen. Again.


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## Thundarr

Personal said:


> Or they could call themselves CONDOMS - Coming Out Not Desiring Opportunity Marriage & Sex!


Oh a game 0

Tested angry men, pissed off, never surrendering
TAMPONS

Vexed angry guys
VAG


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## toolforgrowth

Thundarr said:


> For a guy like me (and many others) who started out young with nice guy tendencies, MGTOW is the missing piece of the puzzle. After my first marriage I was determined to go my own way. But that's when someone too good to be true (TGTBT) comes along. The thing is that TGTBT person wouldn't have liked us before we decided we didn't need or want anyone else. MGTOW is what helped us set boundaries and live by principles.


This mirrors my experience, except I haven't found the TGTBT woman yet.

There's a lot about MGTOW I like. I focus on myself, and my career has really taken off as a result. I make a lot more money and an far more successful in virtually every aspect of my life.

It also has given me the wherewithal to walk away from unsatisfying relationships. I don't need a partner for the sake of being a partner, and I stick to my standards.

Where they lose me is that they are defeatist. They think society can't change and that they will always be the perpetual victims. I find that rather pitiful and pathetic. There's nothing empowering about being a perpetual victim (this also means you, third wave feminists).

I live my life very MGTOW. But I don't feel I'm a victim. I'm simply cautious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naiveonedave

toolforgrowth said:


> This mirrors my experience, except I haven't found the TGTBT woman yet.
> 
> There's a lot about MGTOW I like. I focus on myself, and my career has really taken off as a result. I make a lot more money and an far more successful in virtually every aspect of my life.
> 
> It also has given me the wherewithal to walk away from unsatisfying relationships. I don't need a partner for the sake of being a partner, and I stick to my standards.
> 
> Where they lose me is that they are defeatist. They think society can't change and that they will always be the perpetual victims. I find that rather pitiful and pathetic. There's nothing empowering about being a perpetual victim (this also means you, third wave feminists).
> 
> I live my life very MGTOW. But I don't feel I'm a victim. I'm simply cautious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


good post. I totally agree. I think the defeatist attitude comes from guys who really got screwed in divorce court. Many, probably most, didn't realize soon enough that D with a WAW or a WW is a war, not a simple legal issue. From some of the stories I know that are true, some men really got hosed. And they are bitter about it. The strong ones get past the defeatism, but some just can't get past it.


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## toolforgrowth

Thank you. I had a WAW who had about affair and got hosed in divorce. I'll never get married again, and I'll never co-mingle my funds with another living soul.

But I'm not going to let that stop me from pursuing relationships or love. I'm just going about it much smarter than before!

If I've learned one thing from this experience, it's that the only person who can defeat me is myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

marduk said:


> i think one of the biggest problems with mgtow is the acronym. It's not cool at all.
> 
> Why not something like men's elightened normilization of staying ever single.
> 
> Oops. Menses. I bet they wouldn't like that.


lmao


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