# Strange/complicated situation, need advice



## mjp

I have a situation that I'm having a hard time with, and would really appreciate others insight:

I have been in a pretty good marriage for 15 years. We love each other and have had a fairly happy, healthy marriage (at least I thought so). I have never even thought of straying and NEVER even considered my wife would.

A few days ago, I noticed some messages on my wife's FB from a guy I didn't know. It turned out to be an ex-BF, which was strange because we have been together since high school (with a little bit of on-and-off) and I know about all her other relationships. She had been communicating with this guy for a couple years, and it appeared she had also been texting and calling him at times. There was nothing really incriminating in the messages, but she did tell him that she was struggling with some things and our marriage was not good. A few years ago, I had was in a business that failed - I got behind on taxes, mortgage payments, etc. and hid this from her. This obviously caused some problems in our marriage, but we were able to work through it, and put the issues behind us and are now in a more stable financial position. However, some of her messages suggesting struggles have been within the past year, long since our issues have been resolved.

When I confronted her, she admitted to being in contact with him, but denied any sort of physical or emotional relationship. She admitted to meeting him once for coffee. Although I believed her, I was really distraught over the whole thing, and felt betrayed. She also admitted that she told him our relationship was not good because she needed someone to talk to about our financial problems.

The most disturbing thing was that one of his messages contained an old letter he had written about his romance with my wife. It contained details about their relationship , from which I deduced that they had dated while I was away working out in the Alaskan bush for several week rotations (this was spring/summer of '98, we got married in spring '99; we had dated exclusively for at least 4-5 years prior, and got engaged in winter of '97/'98). I also figured out that my wife and I were engaged at the time! I was really crushed to find I did not know anything about this and that she had kept this from me. The letter suggested that they had slept together and that she had said she had loved him.

So, when I confronted her about the FB messages from this guy, I had asked her about the original relationship, and she said it was so long ago she didn't remember much. She said they didn't have sex, and then when I pushed her on the issue, she said she didn't remember. She also said the relationship was before we were engaged.

So as you can see, she was lying to me about the previous relationship because she did not want to admit some things. This has rocked my trust in her, and it is hard for me to believe her that nothing happened between them recently (over the last 2-3 years since she has been in contact with him on FB, texts, phone calls). I am also doubting the basis of our relationship since she was cheating while we were engaged.

Her response is that was so far in the past that it doesn't matter now, and she claims to have been completely faithful in our marriage. She just keeps stressing that she had to go through such a difficult time all by herself (when my business was failing and we were having financial issues), and that she stood by me at that time. She expects me to believe/trust in her and do the same. She adamantly does not want to end the marriage and freaked out when I told her I was going to move out. 

I need some opinions on where to go from here!
Thanks for listening.

P.S. The guy she was speaking to (lets call him "Mike") is divorced.


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## Acoa

Her memory isn't that bad. Unless she has dementia she remembers who she had sex with. 

The whole I stood by you now stand by me stuff stinks of gaslighting. She is triggering your guilt feelings to distract you from talking about her bad behavior. 

I'd tell her if you are to stay together you need the truth. You need to choose to stay with her based on the truth, not some deceit she tries to maintain. When she stood by you, she did so after getting all the details (I assume). She owes you the same benefit.


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## convert

she has to NC (no contact) with him, and give you full transparence.
the cheating was years ago for her but to you it is fresh because you just found out and she has to consider this. also it is with the same guy.

Yes you need the full truth.
are you sure they did not meet up in recent times other then coffee?

It would not hurt to consult with an attorney


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## tom67

Well you could tell her she is going to take a polygraph and then see her reaction.
If she goes crazy and acts super defensive well they probably did sleep together.
You can also put a voice activated recorder in her car and one in the house to see if she is still talking to him.


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## badmemory

mjp said:


> Her response is that was so far in the past that it doesn't matter now, and *she claims to have been completely faithful in our marriage*.


But she hasn't. Having continued communication and a meeting with her Ex-BF, behind your back, discussing intimate details of your marriage, is cheating. The only question is whether it's an EA or a PA. Obviously you can't believe anything she tells you about that. If they've had a chance to meet up, they've had a chance to have sex; and that's a pretty good chance.

Doesn't remember if she had sex with him? That's laughable. 

If she doesn't come clean and if you can't find any other way to unearth evidence; ask her if she'd be willing to take a poly. See what her reaction is.


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## tom67

If the om is truly divorced (verify this) try contacting the xw.
I have a feeling your w may be the reason.
But again verify.


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## Calibre1212

Please read the Newbie thread in my signature below. Take heart, we have all been there. The gaslighting is to protect herself and confuse you. It is a hell of a journey from where you are to where the truth is. She is super clever...the greatest lies are, undoubtedly, the ones mixed up with some truth.


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## PhillyGuy13

I don't remember = stop pressing me for details. I do not want to answer your questions truthfully, nor do I want to lie to your face.

So, I don't remember. Now that the matter has been put behind us, let's go grab something to eat.

****
You know she is full of it right? Of course she remembers! This wasn't some drunken one night stand, it was a guy she was intimate with while you were away in Alaska. The fact that they chat periodically on Facebook and met for coffee proves this. The meeting for coffee was so she could get him and see if sparks are still there.

She cheated on you during your engagement, lied to you (by omission) for the past 15 years, has rekindled the relationship with him online, is discussing intimate aspects of your marriage with him, and has met up with him at least once (supposedly just for coffee).

Until you get compete honesty, 100 % transparency and remorse, and she goes 100% no contact with him, your marriage is at best stuck in neutral and more likely over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mjp

Wow, lots of responses real quick. Thanks for some good input, and I kind of like the polygraph (or at least threat of it) idea.

Acoa- yes, I think she was caught in a lie about not having had sex in the original relationship (which was when we were engaged). So she went with the "so long ago I don't recall". It's made me doubt her on the recent claims, whereas I would have believed her. I also agree she is trying to trigger my guilt - new to forums, so I'm going to google "gas lighting". I was not honest with her about our finances - I wasn't paying bills because business was failing, and I didn't want to admit to her. It was definitely a rough time for both of us.

convert - as far as meeting up goes, there was no evidence of that of FB, and no evidence of him at all on her phone. She offered that up when I asked, so I can't be sure of anything.

Tom - thanks, like the lie detecter thing

badmemory - I basically said the same thing, as she continually insists she has done nothing wrong since marriage (she admits she was wrong to have relationship behind my back before). Thanks for your opinion, I've been beating myself up because the communication/meeting behind my back feels like betrayal, but wasn't sure if it constitutes "cheating". Again, new to forum - what's EA and PA?


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## naiveonedave

EA = emotional affair, i.e. in luv with the OM. PA=physical affair, could be full sex or making out....


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## tom67

Yes you did screw up by keeping the finances a secret.
However...
Her keeping this a secret and possibly still seeing him off and on throughout your m that would be a deal breaker.


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## mjp

She claims it (the recent contact) was neither a PA or EA. I'm having problems believing her because of the previous relationship.

PhillyGuy, you summed it up pretty well. btw, I was working like 6 week shifts in remote Alaska 7x12 hr shifts/week. Previous spring/summer same thing saving up for the engagement ring!

Thanks all for your advice so far. I think I really need to figure out if I need to move out/seek counseling or what. We have 2 young boys and they would be devistated if we split. I really like the polygraph idea, and think I am going to see how she reacts to that. If she freaks, then I know she has something to hide.


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## Dyokemm

mjp,

Ask her how in the he** she expect you to trust her after:

1. She hid she was talking to this OM for nearly 3 years AND had actually met him in person, all without informing you.

2. This guy is no mere 'friend'....he is an ex-lover....in fact a POS that she cheated on you with and then hid from you for 16!!! years.

3. She won't even admit the truth of what she did 16 years ago....she sits their lying through her teeth feigning amnesia or something....there is little chance your interpretation of the messages was wrong and they slept together, and her denial then sudden inability to remember confirms it IMO...and this means she is actively lying NOW.

Ask her after all this, what specifically does she think she has done to regain your trust.


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## 2xloser

Advance warning, I'm gonna go off here.

Right away you need to recognize the "I don't remember line" (huge huge trigger for me) as totally insulting to your intelligence, marriage, and faith in her. 

She remembers. You can take that to the bank. And if she had some amnesia, there's a recent letter you found to remind her! 

So start with the fact that she is lying to you, about him. 
The question is "why".

This "I don't remember" was the final straw that caused me to leave my WW. I lost complete control of myself when I heard it for the umpteenth time. It is a blatant lie. lies are told to cover up something, and I will not be married to someone who'd continue lying to me. It's that simple.

This compounds *everything*, and is a root cause for you to have the exact concerns you are voicing here. 

Now then... related rant #2.

It has been discussed on this forum elsewhere, and I have thought about this in circles literally for years: the entire concept of "she just needs to come clean" is just not a workable solution or advice. No matter what happens, and what has happened, the helpless frustration of digging and figuring out what actually happened and getting to the truth to determine if a suspected WS is telling the truth is that there is just no viable real way to know.

The common advice is "Just tell them in no uncertain terms that they get ONE chance and better tell you the truth right now, or else you're going to D." 

This leaves only one response option that you will accept: Yes, I cheated. ANY other response is automatically 'they're lying', and a cause for instant D proceedings. It assumes guilt, and tries to place a burden of proof for innocence. But if they actually ARE innocent, there simply is no way to prove it. So what to do? I don't know.

I've come to just my own opinion that the 'steps' are:
- do your investigations, VAR, snooping, etc. and collect all evidence you can get quickly
- use this to decide what simple yes no questions are to be answered, prepare and arrange for polygraph unbeknownst to the WS
- direct confrontation on the perceived lies or missing info, like the above script, "You have one and only one chance, here and now, to tell me all... because we are going to get to the truth, today.
- immediately follow up with a trip to polygraph appointment. If refused, assume they are lying, make that clear, and proceed to D. 
- If no parking lot confession, or a partial parking lot confession of less than suspected, execute the polygraph.
- Act on the results, whatever they are. Because from that point, you're never going to know any different unless a barrage of guilty conscience has them confess, or overwhelming evidence mysteriously comes to light. 

It is still highly imperfect; poly's are flawed and imperfect and can be beaten, etc. but otherwise we're just beating our heads against the wall trying to coerce a confession that may or may not be warranted, much less forthcoming. Without evidence to act on (which you do have, btw, but don't know how complete that is, which is the issue here...), there is no other place to go.

And maybe this 2nd rant belongs in it's own thread. I can't come up with another solution when you really do not know the truth and your core question is whether your spouse is being honest in their explanation or not.

Last thought: If I have learned one thing from TAM over the years, it is that The Gut Feeling (henceforth acronymed 'TGF') is a powerful, very correct tool that is under-used, under-respected, and often revisited afterward with regret of not listening to it.

OP, what does yours say?


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## wmn1

mjp said:


> She claims it (the recent contact) was neither a PA or EA. I'm having problems believing her because of the previous relationship.
> 
> PhillyGuy, you summed it up pretty well. btw, I was working like 6 week shifts in remote Alaska 7x12 hr shifts/week. Previous spring/summer same thing saving up for the engagement ring!
> 
> Thanks all for your advice so far. I think I really need to figure out if I need to move out/seek counseling or what. We have 2 young boys and they would be devistated if we split. I really like the polygraph idea, and think I am going to see how she reacts to that. If she freaks, then I know she has something to hide.


That's pretty painful you being up in Alaska busting your azz including to get her a ring and she's getting some at home behind your back.

Speak to an attorney, get a VAR and see the thread "how I snooped" that went up recently on this board. Protect yourself and good luck


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## Rookie4

mjp said:


> Wow, lots of responses real quick. Thanks for some good input, and I kind of like the polygraph (or at least threat of it) idea.
> 
> Acoa- yes, I think she was caught in a lie about not having had sex in the original relationship (which was when we were engaged). So she went with the "so long ago I don't recall". It's made me doubt her on the recent claims, whereas I would have believed her. I also agree she is trying to trigger my guilt - new to forums, so I'm going to google "gas lighting". I was not honest with her about our finances - I wasn't paying bills because business was failing, and I didn't want to admit to her. It was definitely a rough time for both of us.
> 
> convert - as far as meeting up goes, there was no evidence of that of FB, and no evidence of him at all on her phone. She offered that up when I asked, so I can't be sure of anything.
> 
> Tom - thanks, like the lie detecter thing
> 
> badmemory - I basically said the same thing, as she continually insists she has done nothing wrong since marriage (she admits she was wrong to have relationship behind my back before). Thanks for your opinion, I've been beating myself up because the communication/meeting behind my back feels like betrayal, but wasn't sure if it constitutes "cheating". Again, new to forum - what's EA and PA?


Dude, it sounds like you have some serious communication problems in your marriage. You say the marriage is good, she says it is not ( in her message to the OM), and needs to talk about it. Why is the person she is talking about it to, a stranger and not you? This sounds like a long term problem, and you are only now trying to find out . I think you have not been paying attention. Either to your marriage or to the red flags .
Of course she remembers if she had sex with him , and of course she realizes that you were engaged , at the time, and of course she is trying to guilt you into rugsweeping it.
Finding out the truth about this situation is going to take work, it is going to take communication and it is going to take a willingness for BOTH of you to make it work. The polygraph idea is pretty bogus. Nobody is afraid of a polygraph, and it isn't some kind of magic bullet that will instantly reveal everything. It is almost always used as a bluff, and most people know it.

Your wife is cheating, at least an EA and a possible PA, so what are you going to do about it? The first thing to do, is decide if you want to save the marriage. If you do, you need to plan a strategy for that as a goal. If you don't, the strategy is far different. But, above all, confront her and make sure that she knows that you won't tolerate it any more, and what the consequences to her might be.


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## thummper

Acoa said:


> *Her memory isn't that bad*. Unless she has dementia she remembers who she had sex with.
> 
> The whole I stood by you now stand by me stuff stinks of gaslighting. She is triggering your guilt feelings to distract you from talking about her bad behavior.
> 
> I'd tell her if you are to stay together you need the truth. You need to choose to stay with her based on the truth, not some deceit she tries to maintain. When she stood by you, she did so after getting all the details (I assume). She owes you the same benefit.


God, I hate that "gee, I just don't remember" crap. You BET they remember, they just don't want to own up to it because of their fear of how you'll react.


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## tom67

thummper said:


> God, I hate that "gee, I just don't remember" crap. You BET they remember, they just don't want to own up to it because of their fear of how you'll react.


To show what you think of her word which should be very little,
get DNA kits for the kids and do it in front of her so she understands how serious you are.


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## Rookie4

thummper said:


> God, I hate that "gee, I just don't remember" crap. You BET they remember, they just don't want to own up to it because of their fear of how you'll react.


I agree, but that isn't relevant, right now.


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## Q tip

Sounds like gee, I don't remember being engaged and committed to you so I am innocent... How does that work again?

Yah, there is a rather simple way to defeat a poly with good percentage of success. Doubtful she would research this though. And if she does, you'll see it in search history on a PC anyway - and have your answer regardless,


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## PhillyGuy13

mjp said:


> She claims it (the recent contact) was neither a PA or EA. I'm having problems believing her because of the previous relationship.
> 
> PhillyGuy, you summed it up pretty well. btw, I was working like 6 week shifts in remote Alaska 7x12 hr shifts/week. Previous spring/summer same thing saving up for the engagement ring!
> 
> Thanks all for your advice so far. I think I really need to figure out if I need to move out/seek counseling or what. We have 2 young boys and they would be devistated if we split. I really like the polygraph idea, and think I am going to see how she reacts to that. If she freaks, then I know she has something to hide.


I commend you for your work ethic. I assume you weren't working a Starbucks up in Alaska. It was hard labor, I assume. All for her 

I rescanned your post - do you have any kids?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thummper

AND she goes *total no contact *as of this very minute with the exception that she sends him a communication letting him know that she will never be speaking with him *IN ANY FORM *ever again. If she fights this, you know what to do.


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## Rookie4

tom67 said:


> To show what you think of her word which should be very little,
> get DNA kits for the kids and do it in front of her so she understands how serious you are.


DNA tests, polygraph and all of this other stuff is not relevant to the OP, RIGHT NOW, and can always be done at a later date.
OP, my advice to you would be to sit your wife down, and discuss the condition of the marriage. DO NOT EVEN MENTION THE AFFAIR. Just get her to open up and tell you WHY she feels that the marriage is not good, and find out her complaints about you and your conduct. If you have not apologized to her for lying to her about the finances, do so now. Then address all of her complaints, in a calm and rational manner. This does two things: 1. I starts communication 2. It emptys her gun of ammo. If you have solved her issues, or are shown to be solving them, then she doesn't have any excuse for her conduct, therefore you have just disarmed her. After this is done, THEN discuss the contact with the OM. Without ammunition to gaslight you with, she will probably be more willing to open up about it. I would stress that this is just for starters. And only if you want to try and reconcile.


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## Rookie4

thummper said:


> AND she goes *total no contact *as of this very minute with the exception that she sends him a communication letting him know that she will never be speaking with him *IN ANY FORM *ever again. If she fights this, you know what to do.


This is wrong. The moment you make demands, she will start to buck, and possibly take the affair underground. Op, you must keep her talking, and off balance.


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## thummper

She won't "start to buck" if she knows how seriously you're taking this.


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## tulsy

Wow...she'd cheated while you were engaged, and remained in contact, even met the guy, but admits to nothing and pretends to "not remember". She's gaslighting to push guilt on you for financial stuff you've atoned for, all in hopes to remove her own guilt for cheating on you with this guy.

Your wife is a liar.

You KNOW she's lying about some of these things, so you simply can't trust her right now. 

Get a VAR in her car, and keylogger on her PC.


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## tom67

tulsy said:


> Wow...she'd cheated while you were engaged, and remained in contact, even met the guy, but admits to nothing and pretends to "not remember". She's gaslighting to push guilt on you for financial stuff you've atoned for, all in hopes to remove her own guilt for cheating on you with this guy.
> 
> Your wife is a liar.
> 
> You KNOW she's lying about some of these things, so you simply can't trust her right now.
> 
> Get a VAR in her car, and keylogger on her PC.


This^^^
Then act stupid for a week or two while in PI mode and collect info.


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## Rookie4

tulsy said:


> Wow...she'd cheated while you were engaged, and remained in contact, even met the guy, but admits to nothing and pretends to "not remember". She's gaslighting to push guilt on you for financial stuff you've atoned for, all in hopes to remove her own guilt for cheating on you with this guy.
> 
> Your wife is a liar.
> 
> You KNOW she's lying about some of these things, so you simply can't trust her right now.
> 
> Get a VAR in her car, and keylogger on her PC.


OP, this is bullsh*t. Whether you R or D, DO NOT TELEGRAPH YOUR PUNCHES. All of this Techno crap is not a substitute for thinking, nor is it a substitute for communication.. If you do all of this sh*t that people are suggesting, what have you really done? You have given her your complete game plan. How many people think that this is a good idea? Use your head, it is the best weapon you have got, and it doesn't cost you a dime.


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## 2yearsago

Sorry you are in this situation. Listen to the wisdom on this board, lots and lots of experience. You won't want to believe a lot of it(I know I didn't) but the reality is over time as your situation evolves you will see just how on target this advice is. Truth is most of these sitautions play out very similar.

When she says she doesn't remember she very clearly does. She is saying that to make you stop asking. She is playing you with a great manipulation tool - gaslighting. She will also make you start to doubt yourself and rethink things. One of the best lines I got when I pointed out texts or emails was:

"You don't know the whole conversation"

Beware of similar things. I would also echo that she told this person your marriage was not good when you said it is. Either you aren't being truthful here OR she really sees it totally different that you.

That betrayal you feel is her telling someone that she is obviously close to that YOU KNEW NOTHING ABOUT that she doesn't feel good about the marriage.....meaning you. That hurts.

Take your time, it's going to be a bumpy road. 

Good luck and keep posting.


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## tulsy

Rookie4 said:


> OP, this is bullsh*t. Whether you R or D, DO NOT TELEGRAPH YOUR PUNCHES. All of this Techno crap is not a substitute for thinking, nor is it a substitute for communication.. If you do all of this sh*t that people are suggesting, what have you really done? You have given her your complete game plan. How many people think that this is a good idea? Use your head, it is the best weapon you have got, and it doesn't cost you a dime.


:scratchhead:

You lost me here, bro...can you elaborate?

I never suggested he telegraph anything techno, I said use a VAR and keylogger.

I would NEVER suggest release of info or how you got it..it would only push things underground and put him further in the dark.


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## Graywolf2

*This thread exploded while I was writing my post. I’m kind of late but here goes.*



mjp said:


> It turned out to be an ex-BF, which was strange because we have been together since high school and I know about all her other relationships. They had dated while I was away working out in the Alaskan bush for several week rotations. I also figured out that my wife and I were engaged at the time! The letter suggested that they had slept together and that she had said she had loved him. Her response is that was so far in the past that it doesn't matter now, and she claims to have been completely faithful in our marriage.


*If you knew about all her other relationships why was this one kept secret, especially if she was single and there was nothing to it? To me the above is essentially an admission that they had sex while you were engaged. *



mjp said:


> She said it was so long ago she didn't remember much. She said they didn't have sex, and then when I pushed her on the issue, she said she didn't remember. She also said the relationship was before we were engaged.


*So she doesn’t remember if they had sex or not but does remember that you weren’t engaged? The only way that could be true is if she had sex with hundreds of guys but started turning them all away once you were engaged. OR*



Acoa said:


> Her memory isn't that bad. Unless she has dementia she remembers who she had sex with.





mjp said:


> She admitted to meeting him once for coffee. She also admitted that she told him our relationship was not good because she needed someone to talk to about our financial problems. The guy she was speaking to (let’s call him "Mike") is divorced.


*So she meets an available old flame for coffee because she’s having marriage problems and doesn’t touch him?*


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## badmemory

Rookie4 said:


> If you have not apologized to her for lying to her about the finances, do so now. Then address all of her complaints, in a calm and rational manner.[/B]


I don't completely agree with Rookie4, mainly because I believe this approach will more likely cause her to rationalize her behavior, to blame shift, and cause her to lose focus on the more important issue. Which is her cheating during your engagement, her deceipt, her lying, and her inappropriate (at least) relationship with her ex. She needs a wake up call FIRST. She needs to understand that she could lose her husband over this.

That said, there's nothing wrong with telling her you love her and you "hope" that she is willing to do what she needs to do to help you get you through this. If she will, *then* you'd be more than willing to commit to working on the marital issues with her.


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## Rookie4

badmemory said:


> I don't completely agree with Rookie4, mainly because I believe this approach will more likely cause her to rationalize her behavior, to blame shift, and cause her to lose focus on the more important issue. Which is her cheating during your engagement, her deceipt, her lying, and her inappropriate (at least) relationship with her ex. She needs a wake up call FIRST. She needs to understand that she could lose her husband over this.
> 
> That said, there's nothing wrong with telling her you love her and you "hope" that she is willing to do what she needs to do to help you get you through this. If she will, *then* you'd be more than willing to commit to working on the marital issues with her.


You're a good poster, Badmemory, but I disagree. You have to be proactive and disarm her complaints. In other words , keep her off balance., But I also agree that you can tell her that you hope, with her cooperation, that you can reconcile.


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## badmemory

Rookie4 said:


> You're a good poster, Badmemory, but I disagree. You have to be proactive and disarm her complaints. In other words , keep her off balance., But I also agree that you can tell her that you hope, with her cooperation, that you can reconcile.


Agree to disagree then.


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## Rookie4

thummper said:


> She won't "start to buck" if she knows how seriously you're taking this.


You don't think she already knows this.


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## Graywolf2

You’re on very solid ground about her cheating while you were engaged and she knows it. That’s why she pulled the “I stood by you and now you should stand by me” card. 

Most people would say don't confront and investigate. If you confront her about anything now focus *only* on her cheating while you were engaged. Get her to admit it. Then she’ll have less credibility and be in a weaker position for the other stuff.


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## Rookie4

tulsy said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> You lost me here, bro...can you elaborate?
> 
> I never suggested he telegraph anything techno, I said use a VAR and keylogger.
> 
> I would NEVER suggest release of info or how you got it..it would only push things underground and put him further in the dark.


The OP's wife isn't a fool. She has kept a lot of secrets for a lot of years. So , what happens if the OP gets a VAR or keylogger? She gets a pay as you go phone and he doesn't know any more than he did. He tells her to take a polygraph. She tells him that she hasn't done anything wrong and refuses. So he doesn't know any more than he did, and , what is more, she will be even more secretive than she was before. It doesn't take a Sherlock Holmes to guess that if he suspects her of cheating, that he will try to find out the truth. So I'm betting that she will cover her tracks as fast as he can uncover them.


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## See_Listen_Love

Since she was in contact with OM until a couple of days ago the standard procedure advises using VAR etc and not talking about it anymore to keep the snooping out of her attention, if still possible.

OP needs to monitor and keep silent for some time.


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## workindad

tulsy said:


> Wow...she'd cheated while you were engaged, and remained in contact, even met the guy, but admits to nothing and pretends to "not remember". She's gaslighting to push guilt on you for financial stuff you've atoned for, all in hopes to remove her own guilt for cheating on you with this guy.
> 
> Your wife is a liar.
> 
> You KNOW she's lying about some of these things, so you simply can't trust her right now.
> 
> Get a VAR in her car, and keylogger on her PC.


I absolutely agree with this post. Please invest in a key logger and VAR asap. That combo worked like a champ for me. Also, now that you have stirred the hornets nest she may very likely be reaching out to POSOM for story setting purposes, etc.

She knows damn good and well if she slept with another man while she was engaged to you. The fact that she can't remember is the same as an admission only she is basically calling you a dumb ass at the same time. How insulting. 

If she was getting it on with him while engaged and has continued contact behind your back then you know how capable she is of lying to your face.

Do not bluff on the polygraph. Check around for where they are done in your area and what they cost. Do not let her bully you or guilt you. All of your actions came out. Her lies are still hiding below the surface. Do not be surprised if you get a parking lot confession.

Would you have married her if you knew she was banging another guy while engaged to you? Maybe, maybe not, but she did steal that choice from you with her lies. 

This may be old news to her since she has been living with it for all these years, but it is brand new to you and she needs to accept that.

If you do need to paternity test the kids, it is cheap, painless and private. You can do it from your home. Kits are available at met drug stores or you can google paternity eating and have several options.

Good luck
WD


----------



## Rookie4

Graywolf2 said:


> You’re on very solid ground about her cheating while you were engaged and she knows it. That’s why she pulled the “I stood by you and now you should stand by me” card.
> 
> Focus *only* on that and get her to admit it. Then she’ll have less credibility and be in a weaker position for the other stuff


This isn't true , Graywolf. Re-read the opening post. She has only admitted to talking to the OM. She has not admitted to anything else, or claims to not remember.


----------



## tom67

See_Listen_Love said:


> Since she was in contact with OM until a couple of days ago the standard procedure advises using VAR etc and not talking about it anymore to keep the snooping out of her attention, if still possible.
> 
> OP needs to monitor and keep silent for some time.


:iagree:
Exactly find out if they are still in contact or not and move on from there.


----------



## Rookie4

workindad said:


> I absolutely agree with this post. Please invest in a key logger and VAR asap. That combo worked like a champ for me. Also, now that you have stirred the hornets nest she may very likely be reaching out to POSOM for story setting purposes, etc.
> 
> She knows damn good and well if she slept with another man while she was engaged to you. The fact that she can't remember is the same as an admission only she is basically calling you a dumb ass at the same time. How insulting.
> 
> If she was getting it on with him while engaged and has continued contact behind your back then you know how capable she is of lying to your face.
> 
> Do not bluff on the polygraph. Check around for where they are done in your area and what they cost. Do not let her bully you or guilt you. All of your actions came out. Her lies are still hiding below the surface. Do not be surprised if you get a parking lot confession.
> 
> Would you have married her if you knew she was banging another guy while engaged to you? Maybe, maybe not, but she did steal that choice from you with her lies.
> 
> This may be old news to her since she has been living with it for all these years, but it is brand new to you and she needs to accept that.
> 
> If you do need to paternity test the kids, it is cheap, painless and private. You can do it from your home. Kits are available at met drug stores or you can google paternity eating and have several options.
> 
> Good luck
> WD


I can almost guarantee that if you follow this advice, that her affair will go underground and if you decide to get a divorce, you will be able to prove nothing.


----------



## TRy

mjp said:


> When I confronted her, she admitted to being in contact with him, but denied any sort of physical or emotional relationship. She admitted to meeting him once for coffee.


 You need no further evidence than what you now have. Why do you feel that you need her permission to acknowledge the truth? 



mjp said:


> Although I believed her, I was really distraught over the whole thing, and felt betrayed.


 Why would you beleive her when you have already caught her in major lies? You feel betrayed because you were betrayed. Even when presented with evidence, studies show cheaters almost never admit to their affairs. As a cheater she knows that since you want to believe her, that you will defy logic and hold out hope that she did not cheat as long as she does not admit it.



mjp said:


> She also admitted that she told him our relationship was not good because she needed someone to talk to about our financial problems.


 There is a large difference between confiding to a close friend or family member that knows both parties about issues in your marriage, and secretly confiding to a currently divorced past lover that she cheated with in the past about issues with her marriage. The past lover is not a friend of your relationship, and in fact is an enemy of it. She was giving him the ammo and home court advantage to criticize your marriage in pursuing her, while you did not even know that there was this other man (OM) in her life, much less that your marriage was under attack. 

BTW, talking to anther man that you have ever had a romantic interest in about issues in your marraige is one of the key factors in identifying an emotional affair (EA). There is no doubt that she is in at least an EA with this OM.



mjp said:


> The most disturbing thing was that one of his messages contained an old letter he had written about his romance with my wife. It contained details about their relationship , from which I deduced that they had dated while I was away working out in the Alaskan bush for several week rotations (this was spring/summer of '98, we got married in spring '99; we had dated exclusively for at least 4-5 years prior, and got engaged in winter of '97/'98). I also figured out that my wife and I were engaged at the time! I was really crushed to find I did not know anything about this and that she had kept this from me. The letter suggested that they had slept together and that she had said she had loved him.


 You were in an exclusive relationship with her, you had asked her to marry you and she said yes, and when you go off to work your butt off to get her the ring, she dates and sleeps with another man (OM) behind your back. It does not get much lower that that. You would not have married her if you knew about this cheating. Your whole marriage is based on a lie.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

OP you didn't marry this girl did you?

50 First Dates (2004) - IMDb

*****

She is already moving things underground. She knows he is suspicious, so she is already covering her tracks. He has laid his cards onto the table.

I can get behind Rookie's advice- talk about and work on disarming any problems that could end up being excuses she may have for poor behavior.

I would also start monitoring communications, email, phone records, texts, IMs, where possible. But of course you guys would know I would recommend all that.

Does she keep her phone password protected, do you know her passwords and pass codes? Does she guard it with her life?

The thing I can't get past is the I don't remember excuse, and again unless she is Drew Barrymore, it doesn't fly with me. I wager every man and woman remembers every meaningful relationship, and whether or not it went physical, and how far. This wasn't an anonymous drunken hook up. She was seeing this guy while he was out of town at work. Doesn't remember my butt. She was physically cheating on her fiancé.


----------



## 2xloser

badmemory said:


> Agree to disagree then.


X 2 on this.

and VAR + keylogger is in no way telegraphng any punches. Just the opposite. 

and anything that DOES telegraph the seriousness of this all, even DNA testing the kids, is part of that communication we all agree needs to happen. 

and nicing her into letting her guard down, imho, is not a strategy. She's deminstrated she will lie, drawn a line. It needs to be addressed. Not nasty, but directly.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## TRy

mjp said:


> She just keeps stressing that she had to go through such a difficult time all by herself (when my business was failing and we were having financial issues), and that she stood by me at that time.


 Seeing and talking bad about your marriage to a former lover is not standing by you. It is securing an exit option. The fact that she refers to it as "all by herself", confirms that she did not consider herself part of a married team dealing with hard times together with you.


----------



## tulsy

Rookie4 said:


> The OP's wife isn't a fool. She has kept a lot of secrets for a lot of years. So , what happens if the OP gets a VAR or keylogger? She gets a pay as you go phone and he doesn't know any more than he did. He tells her to take a polygraph. She tells him that she hasn't done anything wrong and refuses. So he doesn't know any more than he did, and , what is more, she will be even more secretive than she was before. It doesn't take a Sherlock Holmes to guess that if he suspects her of cheating, that he will try to find out the truth. So I'm betting that she will cover her tracks as fast as he can uncover them.


Rookie4, you say that in response to me, and then you immediately agree with this post:



See_Listen_Love said:


> Since she was in contact with OM until a couple of days ago the standard procedure advises using VAR etc and not talking about it anymore to keep the snooping out of her attention, if still possible.
> 
> OP needs to monitor and keep silent for some time.


Again, I said VAR and keylogger, and both of those items are kept under the radar, which is the same advice as above, which you agreed with.


----------



## Rookie4

2xloser said:


> X 2 on this.
> 
> and VAR + keylogger is in no way telegraphng any punches. Just the opposite.
> 
> and anything that DOES telegraph the seriousness of this all, even DNA testing the kids, is part of that communication we all agree needs to happen.
> 
> and nicing her into letting her guard down, imho, is not a strategy. She's deminstrated she will lie, drawn a line. It needs to be addressed. Not nasty, but directly.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


This is wrong, and I'll tell you why. You(pl) are continuing to underestimate this woman's intelligence. She has kept all of these secrets for years, hasn't she? She is fully smart enough to get on line and learn in about 10 or 15 minutes how to get around VARS, and keyloggers. She already knows that the OP suspects her, so she is going to be doubly on her guard. You people are thinking with your emotions, that doesn't help the OP, at all.


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## Graywolf2

TRy said:


> Seeing and talking bad about your marriage to a former lover is not standing by you.


:allhail:

This is outstanding. OP use this the next time she says she stood by you.


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## tulsy

Rookie4 said:


> This is wrong, and I'll tell you why. You(pl) are continuing to underestimate this woman's intelligence. She has kept all of these secrets for years, hasn't she? She is fully smart enough to get on line and learn in about 10 or 15 minutes how to get around VARS, and keyloggers. She already knows that the OP suspects her, so she is going to be doubly on her guard. You people are thinking with your emotions, that doesn't help the OP, at all.


Dude...

VARs and keyloggers have helped countless people here at TAM.

I can personally vouch for how well they work.


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## Rookie4

tulsy said:


> Rookie4, you say that in response to me, and then you immediately agree with this post:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I said VAR and keylogger, and both of those items are kept under the radar, which is the same advice as above, which you agreed with.


Well, the thing about a "like" is that I agree with her last paragraph about keeping silent. Not her first paragraph about those silly gadgets. The thing is, none of these things work very well, and certainly NONE of them work as well as good old smarts, and all of them are easy to evade.. Of course the people who SELL them say that they are the best thing since sliced bread. That's how people make money.


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## tulsy

Rookie4 said:


> Well, the thing about a "like" is that I agree with her last paragraph about keeping silent. Not her first paragraph about those silly gadgets. The thing is, none of these things work very well, and certainly NONE of them work as well as good old smarts, and all of them are easy to evade.. Of course the people who SELL them say that they are the best thing since sliced bread. That's how people make money.


I disagree, and I think this is terrible advice.

VARs and keyloggers work, and there is overwhelming evidence of that here at TAM. I learned everything I needed to know with a keylogger before I even found this website. These are not silly gadgets, they can save you life. 

When people think no one is watching or listening, they let their guard down. This is when secrets are revealed.

This woman is lying, and this man needs help. These tools could help him find answers.


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## badmemory

WS's are not as smart as "some" people give them credit for. There are countless examples of that here. WS's being caught left and right; and the vast majority were caught through surveillance of their electronic communication devices.


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## Chaparral

Rookie4 said:


> OP, this is bullsh*t. Whether you R or D, DO NOT TELEGRAPH YOUR PUNCHES. All of this Techno crap is not a substitute for thinking, nor is it a substitute for communication.. If you do all of this sh*t that people are suggesting, what have you really done? You have given her your complete game plan. How many people think that this is a good idea? Use your head, it is the best weapon you have got, and it doesn't cost you a dime.


Was this response actually to the quote in your reply? Where do you come off telling someone another posters advice is BS?

The best advice that has worked here for years is to shut up act like everything is ok and investigate the situation.

Retrieve deleted texts, go over phone/text bills with a fine tooth comb. Put a var in her car and in the house where she will make phone calls. Especially works if you say something that will set her off and she will want to call someone.

You have enough redflags to check and see if she is in a full blown affair. You know she can cheat on you while you were engaged, she can rationalize cheating on you now due to all the "problems" in your marriage.

This situation deserves as full on investigation as any I have seen here.

Where does the OM live in relation to your home?


----------



## 2xloser

Rookie4 said:


> This is wrong, and I'll tell you why. You(pl) are continuing to underestimate this woman's intelligence. She has kept all of these secrets for years, hasn't she? She is fully smart enough to get on line and learn in about 10 or 15 minutes how to get around VARS, and keyloggers. She already knows that the OP suspects her, so she is going to be doubly on her guard. You people are thinking with your emotions, that doesn't help the OP, at all.


Again just chalk me up as yet another "we'll agree to disagree" poster. Respectfully, but vehemently for me. You can disagree, but you do not get to label it "wrong" when it is but your opinion. 
And I have no emotional investment in the OP's marriage or life. 

She kept these secrets while no one was looking for them. And he doesn't know to what depths these screts run. Now, he is (or should be) looking to find out, through any means he has at his disposal, as ONE part of his strategy imho.

You're essentially suggesting a WS can't be caught because they're too smart; there are scores, maybe hundreds of stories here on TAM alone that prove this to be an incorrect assertion. She is also smart enough not to mess around behind her husband's back, but he's trying to figure out if that's actually true.


----------



## Hardtohandle

I also agree with many have said here..

I agree with the gather your evidence.. Literally write down your time line of events from the past.. EG You were in Alaska while she was with him and you were engaged at the time. 

Of course she will remember everything else but if they had sex when she tries to deny or defend her actions.

She will blame you for lying to her and equate it to being equal. It is not..

Here is the deal as I see it.

She cheated on you 15 years ago, but you have no other issues or evidence that would point you in a direction that she cheated on you after that.. 

So this is gonna go in the direction of I was young and stupid. I made a mistake and didn't want to lose you because I knew I screwed up. I grew up and knew you were the man for me.. ETC..ETC..ETC.. 

And she will then re certify that she never cheated on you while married and has been a faithful loving wife.

I personally think those issues with the business and lying put a strain on your relationship. Something you might have brushed off, but she didn't.. 

She might be reflecting back on how much better you both might be if the business went well and how now you are both set back X amount of years.. 

This man might be in a better position then you and is letting her know that.. Not that she should fall for such Bullsh!t.. But people are fvcking stupid.. This why crooks get caught, because they are stupid..

Personally I believe she cheated 15 years ago but hasn't yet since then.. I think if you didn't catch her now, she would have shortly down the road in the next few months. 

What you need to do is get all the info on this guy and attack your wife hard and swift.. You need to give her ZERO chance to recover.. Every emotional blow should be knocking off her knees..

You need to make sure this guy is divorced and as was mentioned, verify it.. Find out where he works.. Where he lives.. 

Get a keylogger for the computer.. I would use Eblaster as I have seen this used in several cases.. You can install it and then remotely remove it.. So I could send you an email with eblaster in it and then send you another email with a control word to remove it from your computer.. Its 90 dollars I think.. it does it all


Basically if she doesn't come clean and looks to defend her position, you need to attack with your evidence and out her to everyone in the family.. You need to out him as well and make it clear in public you don't want him near your wife.. It might make you look a bit foolish, but others around him will look at him a differently if they haven't already.

What I can tell you is this.. If you start off strong and then fizzle out, you will be posting here 10 months from now still going through this sh!t... 

I cannot stress how a strong swift attack with a clear resolution will help you immensely compared to a long drawn out fight..


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## Chaparral

Rookie4 said:


> Well, the thing about a "like" is that I agree with her last paragraph about keeping silent. Not her first paragraph about those silly gadgets. The thing is, none of these things work very well, and certainly NONE of them work as well as good old smarts, and all of them are easy to evade.. Of course the people who SELL them say that they are the best thing since sliced bread. That's how people make money.


Well, I'm totally baffled. The var and other info grabbing tools have worked wonders here, pretty much every time they have been used by posters here. Plus they cant be refuted.


Coffee with another man is a date. Not telling your husband you are going on a date is cheating, period.

Yes she had sex while you were engaged, who doesn't remember having sex with someone new.

The odds you have this much info and nothing is going on now is worse than slim and none. Its to early to tell but by the time a poster gets here the odds they find their spouse is cheating is well over 90%.


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## weightlifter

Read the top link in my signature for all you need on going 007 to find the truth. Do this NOW. The VAR is startlingly fast in results.

I have heard of "just meeting for coffee" being just that... Just read the thread by hardtodetach.... To see where that trainwreck can lead.

Play dumb husband and pretend to let it go. Stop confronting her until you know what you are actually aiming at. Do the VAR and other things in that top link. Note the apple stuff is now out of date thanks to those damn celebrity hackers.


----------



## Chaparral

How many texts and calls have they made over the last two years?


----------



## weightlifter

Rookie4 said:


> Well, the thing about a "like" is that I agree with her last paragraph about keeping silent. Not her first paragraph about those silly gadgets. The thing is, none of these things work very well, and certainly NONE of them work as well as good old smarts, and all of them are easy to evade.. Of course the people who SELL them say that they are the best thing since sliced bread. That's how people make money.


Uh. What? AYFKM?

The wives of rdmu, xbeta, soconfused... Would disagree.
And the dozen or so i did VAR work for...

Besides the audio clean ups.
3 or so times i did the listening and had to write something to the BH to the effect of...

Subject: i'm sorry

Body: Sex confirmed at 0:35:17 of file cheatingwife.mp3
Then a brief overview of the facts.


----------



## italianjob

Correct me if I'm wrong:
- While you and your wife were engaged you were working your ass off in Alaska, I guess this was instrumental in building your family.
- She took some time off your relationship, at that point, to bang another guy for some months, obviously omitting to tell you, eventually deciding you were a better provider and marrying you in the end.
- She probably never lost contact with the guy and intensified communications after your business/money troubles, in other words, when your position as a "good provider" became doubt and you lied to her about money.

.... Don't even think this wasn't physical pre marriage, "I don't remember" obviously means "I don't want to tell you", which obviously means.... well, the obvious...
.... Don't even mention your "money lies" at this point, it was really bad on your part of course, but it has nothing to do with this, her lies about your relationship predate anything wrong you done by several years, she tricked you into marrying her thinking she had been faithfull while you were dating exclusively, don't give her ammo to blameshift.... 

Do you have kids? Is there a reason you want to save this ?
If there are no kids I'd run like the wind from a woman who behaves like this....
I would run even with kids, actually, in this scenario, but if you want to save this, for reasons I can't understand, you need to gather evidence without asking her (play dumb and act like you believe her) or go straight to filing for divorce (even if you want to R) and see how she reacts, and if she will volunteer information when faced with the end of the marriage.

Best of luck.


----------



## MrsFrench

Fifteen years? I am so saddened by this. I don't have any real advice for you, just sympathy. 

I will say that there is absolutely no way she doesn't remember whether or not she slept with this man. "I don't remember" translates to, "I don't want to tell you the truth, but I don't want to lie to you either." Which you can take as a yes. If the answer were no, she would have said as much and stuck to that answer. 

I would put some effort into snooping. As much as it sucks to be driven to this point, you need and deserve answers. I have a feeling that she's cheated post-nuptials, given the amount of contact she has had with this man, and that she cheated on you with him for an extended period of time once before.


----------



## mjp

I had to leave for work, so wasn't able to keep checking this thread - but thanks so much for the overwhelming response. There are some great points here and some really solid advice. I can't reply to all the specifics now, because I'm working. But I did speak w wife again today and she again kept bringing up my deceit regarding financial matters . She was actually getting angry that I was "treating her this way" . I actually believe her when she insists there was no physical affair recently (since marriage). I do think she was keeping things open in case our marriage failed though. 

To answer a couple questions, yes we have kids - 2 young boys. And I've therefore seen the issues kids from divorced families have. 

And yes, I am sure the OM has been divorced for several years. He lives in CT, probably an hour or so away from us.

I think they had no contact at all from before we were married until about 2 or 3 years ago, when's he got a FB.


----------



## commonsenseisn't

Fact: she is gaslighting you.

Strategy: 1. Assume she has already taken the affair underground. 2. Act so she will assume you bought into the gaslighting. 3. Snoop. 4. Act on info received. 

Good luck and retain a lawyer asap.


----------



## mjp

Oh, and they had only corresponded a handful of times on FB from
What I could see (and this was her story as well). Except for the old "love letter" and a mention or 2 of her "struggles" in her marriage all the other correspondences were very banal in nature (I.e., hi how you doing , etc).

Haven't found anything else and I don't think I will, as she said she earlier today she will tel me his cell phone number and I can look through all the old cellphone records.


----------



## bandit.45

She's lying. And lying and lying. 

Quit letting her throw the financial stuff in your face. 

She was screwing the guy when you were in Alaska. Quit kidding yourself, quit letting her kid you. She would not have hing on to this guys memory for so long had there not been intimacy between them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Chaparral said:


> Was this response actually to the quote in your reply? Where do you come off telling someone another posters advice is BS?


It is his cross to carry in multiple threads now. For the last few weeks, he's been calling VARs crap. I'm starting to believe one backfired for him or he was subjected to negative effects because of one. The anger and derailing on this specific point is too strange to be a coincidence IMO.
Dude maybe, I doubt it, you are one few the few who caught it early. I hope so because infidelity is an ugly road.


----------



## Graywolf2

italianjob said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong:
> - While you and your wife were engaged you were working your ass off in Alaska, I guess this was instrumental in building your family.
> - She took some time off your relationship, at that point, to bang another guy for some months, obviously omitting to tell you, eventually deciding you were a better provider and marrying you in the end.


*^^^^What she did^^^^*



mjp said:


> I did speak w wife again today and she again *kept bringing up my deceit *regarding financial matters.


*^^^^This is her lifeline to keep from feeling guilty.^^^^* 



mjp said:


> *She was actually getting angry that I was "treating her this way"*


* 
You've been the bad guy since your financial deceit and she likes it that way. You deserve the way she's been thinking about you, treating you and what she said to the other man about you. It was the truth damn it. There is no way she's going to let you treat her like the bad guy because of something that happened so long ago. You becoming a bigger victim than her would turn her world upside down.*


----------



## Dyokemm

She is still not owning the fact that she cheated on you 16 years ago and hid it from you for the entire M...and even if the last 3 years have not been inappropriate much (according to what you have uncovered), she is not acknowledging the HUGE betrayal to you in even striking back up any contact or friendship with the POS she had betrayed you with, all while keeping you in the dark.

Instead, she is deflecting and blameshifting with the financial matters.

There is a reason she only wants to talk about the past couple years (assuming your right that it hasn't been an A of any kind) and her grievances with you.

It's because she knows she utterly betrayed you 16 years ago and has been deceiving you ever since.

He**, she still will not even admit the full extent of what she did.

She is anything but remorseful right now....she is in fully engaged in self-preservation and trying to avoid consequences for her horrible past actions.


----------



## Sports Fan

Only a hard stance is called for in this situation. Playing Mr Nice Guy, and forgive and forget will get you no where but heartache in the future.

Doesn't matter how long ago it was she cheated. She owns that. When you got married it was for better or worse till death do us part.

Not for better but when worse comes around i'll have an affair.

Right now is your test. You can stand strong on this matter and enforce consequences for her past behavour and continued behavour. Or you can come accross weak, rugsweep this whole situation, and find that you have lost your self respect, and she will eventually do it again.

For this to work out you need to read her the riot act.

She must stop all contact no if no butts.
She must give you access to all passwords, phone codes etc.
She must be accountable for her whereabouts at all times.
She must take responsibility and stop blameing you for her actions.

Unless she willingly does all of the above and you stand firm on this than you would be better off to leave her now.

If you do want to reconcile only by taking a hard line now and showing her this kind of behavour wont be tolerated can you give your marriage a chance of true reconciliation.

Unless you want to jkick her to the kerb now which no one would blame you for.


----------



## Dyokemm

Tell her directly, she can have her lies or she can have her M, but she can't have both.

She either comes 100% clean about what she has done to betray you throughout the relationship, and commits herself to repairing the damage, or you will be forced to decide if being married to a faithless liar is something you want to continue.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Yes, you lied about the money. Yes, it was wrong. No, they are not the same thing at all. Don't let her guilt you into making these lies equal. You can't bad mouth her to your financial debt and get satisfaction. You can't get emotional support from your struggling business.


----------



## 2xloser

Dyokemm said:


> Tell her directly, she can have her lies or she can have her M, but she can't have both.
> 
> She either comes 100% clean about what she has done to betray you throughout the relationship, and commits herself to repairing the damage, or you will be forced to decide if being married to a faithless liar is something you want to continue.


Yes sort of... but... HOW? How does he verify whatever she says is "100% clean", unless she cops to an all-out long term PA? If she says, swearing in her children and all that is sacred, "I know it looks bad, but nothing happened", what then? Isn't the only acceptable answer to this "I totally cheated"? What if his gut says one thing but she says another?

Sorry I am on this rampage. It's totally an intellectual question, not starting an argument with you or anyone here... really. This drove me nuts throughout my post dday weeks and months... how does one know?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

There's a better than good chance it hasn't gone back to being physical yet. But there is no question one or both of them are looking to rekindle the relationship.

He is now divorced and on the prowl. She is still angry about the finances. Justifiably so, depending on if and how you guys put that issue to bed. But dialing up an old boyfriend --- nay an old affair partner -- is not th answer.

PS look into his background. How do you know he is divorced? Verify all facts. Find out who his wife is or was. You are told he is divorced so as to not immediately make waves in his life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

2xloser,

Good point....should have included that he tells her she WILL be taking a poly to confirm her confession details.

If she fails that, she has obviously chosen her lies.

With infidelity this far in the past, a poly is really the only way to get to the bottom of what truly happened.


----------



## thatbpguy

I'm coming in late and will only echo what others have said...

1. You did lie and decieved her about serious financial issues and I can see where she would lose respect for you. When a wife does that it can be disasterous.

2. I think there us really little doubt she has grossly understated her relationship with this om.

3. I am not so certain at this time I'd go all nuclear on her. But I do think she has to give you better answers. You need to insist and tell her 'I don't remember' is not an answer. Make it clear the marriage may hinge on her honesty.

4. Do what can be done to archive emails. You'd be surprised. On my wife's hotmail account I can find 8 year old emails using the archive feature.

5. Were it me, I might suggest sending him an rmail pretending to be her and say something like, 'he knows almost everything, what should I do..." and see what kind of a response you get.

6. If all this fails, then try the nuclear approach.


----------



## x598

mjp said:


> I had to leave for work, so wasn't able to keep checking this thread - but thanks so much for the overwhelming response. There are some great points here and some really solid advice. I can't reply to all the specifics now, because I'm working. But I did speak w wife again today and she again kept bringing up my deceit regarding financial matters . She was actually getting angry that I was "treating her this way" . I actually believe her when she insists there was no physical affair recently (since marriage). I do think she was keeping things open in case our marriage failed though.
> 
> To answer a couple questions, yes we have kids - 2 young boys. And I've therefore seen the issues kids from divorced families have.
> 
> And yes, I am sure the OM has been divorced for several years. He lives in CT, probably an hour or so away from us.
> 
> I think they had no contact at all from before we were married until about 2 or 3 years ago, when's he got a FB.


lets get something straight here.........

you launched a business endeavor that ultimately failed, and you hid the financial repercussions from your wife (I assume out of embarrassment?) So now she gets to cheat on you and get away with it????

sorry, but that's about the STUPIDEST justification I have heard to date. I'm not saying that hiding your situation from your wife is acceptable, just that it in no way justifies her affair (and everyone here knows its an affair). Has she ever wrecked a car? done anything less than what you would find acceptable? did you then go out and nail five hookers and sleep with any old girlfriends???

so tell her she doesn't get a pass on this because you didn't handle your finances perfectly in her eyes. did you do your best to work hard and resolve the financial issues? did you have to come clean and tell her the truth about how much debt you really were in? its one thing to take a legit shot and miss, its a different story if you ran the business into the ground buying sports cars, boats and other toys.

I guess its HER TURN to come clean. sadly, you already know the answers. bet she isn't up to owning up to what she has done and changing her life to make it right as you had to do.

I would pack her bags.


----------



## tom67

Dyokemm said:


> 2xloser,
> 
> Good point....should have included that he tells her she WILL be taking a poly to confirm her confession details.
> 
> If she fails that, she has obviously chosen her lies.
> 
> With infidelity this far in the past, a poly is really the only way to get to the bottom of what truly happened.


I'm not a big fan of polys but in your case the threat of one may have her spilling the beans but it sounds like you want to rugsweep so I'll wish you luck.
You will need it.


----------



## Graywolf2

She was trying her best not to lie about having sex with the OM while you were engaged (which she did) when she said the following:

“It doesn’t matter now”
“I don’t remember”

Did she spontaneously add “I’ve been completely faithful in our marriage” to that list or was it a response to a question?

If she added it when she was in the mindset of not outright lying, it could be an indication that she didn't have sex with the OM while you were married.

************************************************************

Also it makes sense that she would look up the OM when you had financial difficulty. Your wife seems very practical and security is very high on the list of things women want from a marriage. 

She reached a point where she wanted to settle down and start a family. Before the deal was finalized with you another marriage material guy showed up. You were gone for weeks at a time so she did some shopping. Which man would make the best husband and provider? 

You obviously won the contest and she married you. When she found out that you lied by omission about her and her children’s security it really shook her up. She started wondering if she had picked the right guy and wanted to know how the OM was doing. Was he finically well off?


----------



## Q tip

Time for OP to read MMSLP


----------



## Hardtohandle

As we mentioned, We all knew she was going to use your lies of the financial woes against you. 

She needs something to rebuttal back with or have some sort chip against you since you have something against her at this time.

No one wants to be on the bottom. 

What I can relate to you is what went on with my Ex wife.. My Ex told everyone after she got caught we were having issues. I can only imagine what my Ex told this other man. Yes he was a d0uche in his own right in the end, but again who knows what she filled his head with. 

When people confronted me saying *"Your Ex said you guys were having problems"*. 

My rebuttal was *"If you mean by problems, that I caught my wife having an affair. Then yes we had problems. But if you mean we had problems like in fights and such.. Then No, I wasn't aware of anything. We had no money issues and we made love 3x a week up until the day I caught her.. So whatever problems we had, were hers and hers alone."*

So who the fvck knows what she told this man during there *"Coffee visit"*. I hate to tell you as well, but I have some REAL issues with this we got together for coffee..

If they got together once.. They got together twice.. 

I do feel though you caught this early on.. I don't know why, I just do..

I do feel that something was brewing. I think they might have had some kissing and heavy petting, but I don't know.. I just feel that's all that happen during this coffee visit. 

For me when I caught my wife, I sort of figured out immediately when she could have went out with this guy. I was pretty much on the money. In the end she could have seen him a zillion times and I wouldn't give a sh!t though.. But at that time I had to know everything... 

Like you said yourself, she might have been *"preparing"* for the worse.

I will tell you this. Now that you caught her even if she was looking to leave you. She will not now.. Because no one wants to leave like this. No one wants to leave with the scarlet letter if they don't have to. 

So she will play the consummate wife now and deny, deny, deny...

But after the dust settles, she still might be looking to leave. It took my wife 20 years to leave. But when she did.. Wow, she left in block buster movie fashion and she played the role of the villain with great expertise. You would think I had the affair the way she was acting... My ex ruined our friendship, family and destroyed a relationship with her son. 

So my point is please don't be short sighted with this. You might be curing the symptom, but not the disease. That is what I was doing all these times and years.. she/we needed some good professional help to get to the root of the cause, which we never did. 

Marriage counseling or therapy will now be a life time event.. Don't be fooled into thinking that you will go for a year and be *"FIXED"*. You will need it even if its once every 3 months just to have a place where you can express issues without fear of repercussions. I know if we did that, that just maybe my Ex would have had an outlet to explain what was going on instead of having the affair and doing everything she did. 

I love my 2 boys and as far as divorces go, anyone here can attest for a man I won the gold medal in divorce competition. But a day doesn't go by that I wish it never turned out this way.. 

But my Ex failed us.. I failed because I just didn't understand or know what to do when this all happen the first time around years ago. 

Just don't think that its, You catch her looking to do something. You out her and put her in her place and she straightens out and flies right from here on in... And all is good in the family.. Because it isn't and it won't be for a very long time after this.

So there is much more going to happen assuming everything falls into place for you and you need to be ready for that as well.


----------



## TRy

x598 said:


> :iagree::iagree:*QFT*
> you launched a business endeavor that ultimately failed, and you hid the financial repercussions from your wife (I assume out of embarrassment?) So now she gets to cheat on you and get away with it????
> 
> sorry, but that's about the STUPIDEST justification I have heard to date.


 The OP needs to read this again and again until he believes it with all of his heart. Until he believes it enough to get angry like he should get angry when she every tries to use this excuse for cheating again. The reason that the OP covered up his business failure is because he knew that if she knew about it, she would not be there for him with sympathy and support, but would instead use it against him; and he was right.


----------



## Rookie4

Gee, Apparently nobody ever caught a cheater, before the wonders of electronic devices. 
OP, by all means, threaten her with a polygraph, then she will refuse you , and lose even more respect for you and take her actions further underground.
Buy all of the gadgets, wire your house for sound, and her car, too. She will learn in 10 minutes how to evade it, and you will be no better informed than you are now.
Get your boys DNA tested. But you must never let her know, because, if the kids are your and she finds out you doubted her word,, she will hate you forever. Plus, if you keep it a secret, then she will hold that against you like she already holds your lying against you.
The point is, you ALREADY know enough. Your wife IS being unfaithful. she is in ,at least, an EA and possibly a PA. You know that she is in secret contact with an ex BF, one who she has had sex with in the past, one who she has recently gone on a date with. Do you really need to spend money on gadgets to know more? These electronic gadgets have value , in order to find out IF an affair is happening. You already know that , so why bother? and why give her your game plan. WHY? You know enough, right now, to make an informed decision to either R or D. Without all of the CIA spying nonsense.


----------



## jim123

Rookie4 said:


> Gee, Apparently nobody ever caught a cheater, before the wonders of electronic devices.
> OP, by all means, threaten her with a polygraph, then she will refuse you , and lose even more respect for you and take her actions further underground.
> Buy all of the gadgets, wire your house for sound, and her car, too. She will learn in 10 minutes how to evade it, and you will be no better informed than you are now.
> Get your boys DNA tested. But you must never let her know, because, if the kids are your and she finds out you doubted her word,, she will hate you forever. Plus, if you keep it a secret, then she will hold that against you like she already holds your lying against you.
> The point is, you ALREADY know enough. Your wife IS being unfaithful. she is in ,at least, an EA and possibly a PA. You know that she is in secret contact with an ex BF, one who she has had sex with in the past, one who she has recently gone on a date with. Do you really need to spend money on gadgets to know more? These electronic gadgets have value , in order to find out IF an affair is happening. You already know that , so why bother? and why give her your game plan. WHY? You know enough, right now, to make an informed decision to either R or D. Without all of the CIA spying nonsense.


Agree. You know what is going on. Get the truth on the first affair then pack a bag. The truth or I leave now.


----------



## the guy

Some folks need to solidify their new reality by continuing to validate the reason to leave.

In short what OP finds next might give him the direction he needs to take.

So if she comes up dirty it helps say "I tried and divorce was the best option.

Snooping will confirm OP to either bail or stay .....if he does bail he can do it with out regret.


----------



## Chaparral

Many if not most business men keep the financial situation separate from their families. The pressure s enormous. Rightly or wrongly we do that to protect them. There is nothing they can do about good times or bad times and it makes no sense for them to worry until all options. Have failed.

First came the facebook chats...............then came the excuses to chat up ex lovers. That they went on a secret date is unforgiveable. Its cheating, sex or not. If it wasnt sex it was close enough to lose all trust, I would have told her to get out. Never leave when someone else cheats. The did the crime let them wear it.

If sge gets angry, that's just another way to deflect her guilt. Tell her he's divorced, pack a bag and pick up where you left off sixteen years ago or last week when you had "coffee."


----------



## Rookie4

the guy said:


> Some folks need to solidify their new reality by continuing to validate the reason to leave.
> 
> In short what OP finds next might give him the direction he needs to take.
> 
> So if she comes up dirty it helps say "I tried and divorce was the best option.
> 
> Snooping will confirm OP to either bail or stay .....if he does bail he can do it with out regret.


I see what you're saying , Guy. But to my mind he already has enough info, and can start to plan for either R or D.


----------



## the guy

In time..in time... Rockkie.

Either R or D....OP just need the time.

After all its only been 4 pages and some thread go into hundreds of page and you can read how the person who started the thread progress with time.

Some folks sitting here at TAM and read all the different perspective from folks that went thru this crap can pick and choose what works best.

At the very least they know they are not alone.


----------



## Chaparral

Rookie4 said:


> I see what you're saying , Guy. But to my mind he already has enough info, and can start to plan for either R or D.


He has two problems, the sixteen year old problem and the two year old, current, problem.

She lied about the sixteen year old problem but there is no proof.

The two year old problem could be many things but he needs to verify this independently. There is no point talkinq to or questioning a cheater unless you have big guns to pull. You have to get those guns on your own.

I don't see why something this simple needs to be sidetracking a thread when the techniques to find the truth have been established here for years.

There is a reason only twenty percent of cheaters are caught and its not because people investigated when the redflags started poping up.


----------



## workindad

OP- your financial issue was wrong on your part, but from what you have described it sounds like you provided complete disclosure eventually and you guys worked through it.

She is not doing the same. She is lying and her cheating and lying predates your financial issue.

She is trying mind f-ck you to confuse the issue. The two are separate.

This guy lives about an hour from you, has been FBing your wife for a couple of years- they could have met up for more than coffee. 

Your wife has no respect for you, your marriage, or your family and she is not remorseful at all.

I would certainly put a VAR and keylogger in place. You may be shocked at what turns up in short order. I was and I would not have had iron clad proof without them.


----------



## tom67

workindad said:


> OP- your financial issue was wrong on your part, but from what you have described it sounds like you provided complete disclosure eventually and you guys worked through it.
> 
> She is not doing the same. She is lying and her cheating and lying predates your financial issue.
> 
> She is trying mind f-ck you to confuse the issue. The two are separate.
> 
> This guy lives about an hour from you, has been FBing your wife for a couple of years- they could have met up for more than coffee.
> 
> Your wife has no respect for you, your marriage, or your family and she is not remorseful at all.
> 
> I would certainly put a VAR and keylogger in place. You may be shocked at what turns up in short order. I was and I would not have had iron clad proof without them.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Rookie4

Chaparral said:


> He has two problems, the sixteen year old problem and the two year old, current, problem.
> 
> She lied about the sixteen year old problem but there is no proof.
> 
> The two year old problem could be many things but he needs to verify this independently. There is no point talkinq to or questioning a cheater unless you have big guns to pull. You have to get those guns on your own.
> 
> I don't see why something this simple needs to be sidetracking a thread when the techniques to find the truth have been established here for years.
> 
> There is a reason only twenty percent of cheaters are caught and its not because people investigated when the redflags started poping up.


Sorry Chap, but I see this as fixing the hole after the boat has sunk. What difference does it make., now?


----------



## the guy

Ya its hard to own the crap you did to someone when alls you do is look at the crap other poeple did to you.

My point is workindad is right, she has no remorse.....I'm guessing your old lady believe you made her cheat


----------



## Rookie4

Look, IF you are unsure IF an affair is happening, then I would say "go for it" and use all of the little gadgets you need to find out the truth. BUT, this OP already knows that there is infidelity. So why bother? Now is the time to decide to R or D. Finding out every little detail is no help at all. Remember that in most (if not all) states, infidelity is not a crime. So what is the point? How many bites of a sh*t sandwich do you need to take, before you know it's a sh*t sandwich?


----------



## the guy

Rookie4 said:


> Look, IF you are unsure IF an affair is happening, then I would say "go for it" and use all of the little gadgets you need to find out the truth. BUT, this OP already knows that there is infidelity. So why bother? Now is the time to decide to R or D. Finding out every little detail is no help at all. Remember that in most (if not all) states, infidelity is not a crime. So what is the point? How many bites of a sh*t sandwich do you need to take, before you know it's a sh*t sandwich?


:rofl::lol::rofl:

Some guys just need the taste of that sandwich to pull the trigger to bail.

I'm thinking OP believes people can change....ya some people...but some people do change.

At the end of the day Op is going to wait only so long for this change,,,and in some cases the betrayed is done and the wayward is a little to late for any change to matter..

I hope OP's old lady does change and turns a corner to keep the family unit intact. I hope she finds the tool to affair proof the marriage...but as of right now WW doesn'ty get it.


----------



## Rookie4

the guy said:


> :rofl::lol::rofl:
> 
> Some guys just need the taste of that sandwich to pull the trigger to bail.
> 
> I'm thinking OP believes people can change....ya some people...but some people do change.
> 
> At the end of the day Op is going to wait only so long for this change,,,and in some cases the betrayed is done and the wayward is a little to late for any change to matter..
> 
> I hope OP's old lady does change and turns a corner to keep the family unit intact. I hope she finds the tool to affair proof the marriage...but as of right now WW doesn'ty get it.


The thing is, Guy. I think that this is a very fixable marriage. I don't believe (I may be wrong) that it has become physical.....yet. I think also, that the wife feels that because the OP lied to her about the financial troubles, that she is entitled to a "mulligan" to talk to this guy. Apparently this "mulligan" also covers the pre-marriage slap and tickle she had with the OM. What the Op needs to convey to his wife is that her lies are worse than his. A tough sell, to be sure. but necessary if the marriage is to continue.


----------



## jnj express

do not EVER AGAIN---allow your wife to put your deceit in re: the financial problems of the mge-----in the SAME LEAGUE AS HER CHEATING----and yes she is cheating---it is an EA---and if the mge is to continue---the EA, and all contact with her lover stops---a NC letter is sent---with you watching it go, and if necessary she stays off all social media, for a period of time

I guarantee you she remembers everything that happened with her lover, while you were engaged, and away working----if she had forgotten any of it---I promise you your wife and her lover have reminisced about the early days---and she knows what happened back then, and when it happened

If you wanna find out as has already been brought up---MAKE her take a poly-----also for your own protection, and to let her know you are dead serious about all of this----make her sign a POST NUP with a DURESS CLAUSE

She MUST be given some consequences, and as I said above---do not allow her to compare your hiding the financial situation, and her having her PA then and EA now----also when you were hiding the financial situation, I am sure some of your thinking was to make life as good as possible for her, and for her not to have to obsess over marital problems----maybe you went about it the wrong way---but your intentions were probably not to have her have to worry

As to any claims she has about your mge, NOW, that is probably her justification for carrying on this EA----all of this needs to be talked about

One last thing, you might let her know that D could very well be on the table, if she does not take accountability, and show remorse, and follow proper marital boundaries


----------



## Rookie4

jnj express said:


> do not EVER AGAIN---allow your wife to put your deceit in re: the financial problems of the mge-----in the SAME LEAGUE AS HER CHEATING----and yes she is cheating---it is an EA---and if the mge is to continue---the EA, and all contact with her lover stops---a NC letter is sent---with you watching it go, and if necessary she stays off all social media, for a period of time
> 
> I guarantee you she remembers everything that happened with her lover, while you were engaged, and away working----if she had forgotten any of it---I promise you your wife and her lover have reminisced about the early days---and she knows what happened back then, and when it happened
> 
> If you wanna find out as has already been brought up---MAKE her take a poly-----also for your own protection, and to let her know you are dead serious about all of this----make her sign a POST NUP with a DURESS CLAUSE
> 
> She MUST be given some consequences, and as I said above---do not allow her to compare your hiding the financial situation, and her having her PA then and EA now----also when you were hiding the financial situation, I am sure some of your thinking was to make life as good as possible for her, and for her not to have to obsess over marital problems----maybe you went about it the wrong way---but your intentions were probably not to have her have to worry
> 
> As to any claims she has about your mge, NOW, that is probably her justification for carrying on this EA----all of this needs to be talked about
> 
> One last thing, you might let her know that D could very well be on the table, if she does not take accountability, and show remorse, and follow proper marital boundaries


Then, while you're at it, hit her with a sledgehammer, then call in the torture squad. Geez, talk about going nuclear. JNL Express, you really need to get a grip.


----------



## jnj express

Hey Rookie---how do you propose to help OP------just let it all slide----so you wouldn't stop the contact---why don't you just send her on over to her lover, and let them do their thing----

YOU GOT A WIFE WHO CLAIMS LACK OF MEMORY, ARGUES WITH HER H, ABOUT HIS DECEIT, WHICH IN NO WAY COMPARES TO HER DECEIT, AND WHO WANTS TO SLIDE THIS ALL UNDER THE RUG----------so you tell me rookie----how do you propose to help the OP


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Here is what he OP Said about the affair 16 years ago.



mjp said:


> The most disturbing thing was that one of his messages contained an old letter he had written about his romance with my wife. It contained details about their relationship , from which I deduced that they had dated while I was away working out in the Alaskan bush for several week rotations (this was spring/summer of '98, we got married in spring '99; we had dated exclusively for at least 4-5 years prior, and got engaged in winter of '97/'98). I also figured out that my wife and I were engaged at the time! I was really crushed to find I did not know anything about this and that she had kept this from me. The letter suggested that they had slept together and that she had said she had loved him.
> 
> So, when I confronted her about the FB messages from this guy, I had asked her about the original relationship, and she said it was so long ago she didn't remember much. She said they didn't have sex, and then when I pushed her on the issue, she said she didn't remember.


I'd be interested in a bit more detail as to how an IM can contain an old letter- was it a PDF copy, retyped, can you elaborate here?

As far as I'm concerned that's pretty damning proof, if we take the letter at face value. He knows when they got engaged, we all would, he knows when he left for an extended work adventure to Alaska, we all would.

She knows she slept with this guy. We've covered the I don't remember excuse ad nauseum. 

So to me he has a smoking gun, would he have married her 16 years ago knowing what he knows now? If he came to TAM 16 years ago and said I found this romantic letter at my fiancé's house that she had while I was away in Alaska? What should I do? The advice would have been unanimous. Do not marry this woman.

Now she has been lying to him for 16 years. No they weren't married but were commited, as far as he knew at least.

Let's say he finds out a year or two into marriage. After some struggles, he forgave her and they reconciled at that point. Gave her one more chance. Now he comes to TAM and says she has reconnected with this guy she had an affair with on FB and met him or coffee, at minimum. Again the advice would have been you already gave her the gift of R once, and she just disrespected you further by meeting up with this guy and whining about her marriage to him. Again, the advice would be unanimous, kick her to the curb.

So if not but for his unwillful ignorance over the past 16 years, they would have never ended up together nor remained married. Now that they have two young kids together, it's not as simple. He can certainly try to work it out. But the fact that she won't even come clean despite what seems to be hard evidence does not bode well AT ALL.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

jnj express said:


> Hey Rookie---how do you propose to help OP------just let it all slide----so you wouldn't stop the contact---why don't you just send her on over to her lover, and let them do their thing----
> 
> YOU GOT A WIFE WHO CLAIMS LACK OF MEMORY, ARGUES WITH HER H, ABOUT HIS DECEIT, WHICH IN NO WAY COMPARES TO HER DECEIT, AND WHO WANTS TO SLIDE THIS ALL UNDER THE RUG----------so you tell me rookie----how do you propose to help the OP


Read my first couple of posts. by being smarter than his wife, and by not overreacting and driving her away. This has not gone to the end of the world....yet. You start all of this cr*p and it soon will be. This OP has expressed a desire to find a reasonable solution. Your stuff ain't it.


----------



## Rookie4

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Here is what he OP Said about the affair 16 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be interested in a bit more detail as to how an IM can contain an old letter- was it a PDF copy, retyped, can you elaborate here?
> 
> As far as I'm concerned that's pretty damning proof, if we take the letter at face value. He knows when they got engaged, we all would, he knows when he left for an extended work adventure to Alaska, we all would.
> 
> She knows she slept with this guy. We've covered the I don't remember excuse ad nauseum.
> 
> So to me he has a smoking gun, would he have married her 16 years ago knowing what he knows now? If he came to TAM 16 years ago and said I found this romantic letter at my fiancé's house that she had while I was away in Alaska? What should I do? The advice would have been unanimous. Do not marry this woman.
> 
> Now she has been lying to him for 16 years. No they weren't married but were commited, as far as he knew at least.
> 
> Let's say he finds out a year or two into marriage. After some struggles, he forgave her and they reconciled at that point. Gave her one more chance. Now he comes to TAM and says she has reconnected with this guy she had an affair with on FB and met him or coffee, at minimum. Again the advice would have been you already gave her the gift of R once, and she just disrespected you further by meeting up with this guy and whining about her marriage to him. Again, the advice would be unanimous, kick her to the curb.
> 
> So if not but for his unwillful ignorance over the past 16 years, they would have never ended up together nor remained married. Now that they have two young kids together, it's not as simple. He can certainly try to work it out. But the fact that she won't even come clean despite what seems to be hard evidence does not bode well AT ALL.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree, but you also have the added problem that he lied to her as well. Plus, he seems to want to reconcile. It is indeed a very complicated marriage.


----------



## italianjob

I wouldn't want to know the details, if I had already made up my mind about D.
I've been on both sides of infidelity, in the most recent episode (which was, by the way, several years ago) I was the WS, but I was cheated on by my very first "serious" (as in completely sex active) girlfriend years before that.

I didn't need any more proof, I got her to admit she'd been unfaithful, I could see she was sorry for hurting me, but not really remorseful, so I felt there was no space for R (and I was right, I must say, she ended up cheating in every relationship she had, she had the mindset of a "serial cheater")

That said, I understand that most people can't really make up their mind that fast, especially if the situations occurs in a years old marriage maybe with kids. In that case I would NEED more details, because if I should lean toward R, I would need to know exactly what I'm forgiving and trying to forget, or it would become a case of rug sweeping, something that usually comes back to bite you sooner or later.

In this case I think the OP should snoop and try to find out everything he can before really taking a direction.
Yeah, some thing that get suggested here are sometimes a bit of an exaggeration, at least from the standards of where I live (if you should ask any spouse in Italy to take a poly, even the most innocent one would just laugh in your face and ask if you're crazy, actually I don't even know if those tests are done privately around here), but I don't see nothing wrong in some electronic snooping and maybe a var or two.

If the WS should find out about the snooping I would agree with Rookie only if the investigation was started without any real evidence of something going on. In this case, and in most, the WS is well aware of being at least lacking in transparency and of having dealt out some lying and some deceit. So if the snooping really makes her/him fall from "the fence" on the side of the AP, it would probably be just an acceleration of something that was going to happen anyway, no real damage, maybe even a way to avoid wasting more time....


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Rookie4 said:


> I agree, but you also have the added problem that he lied to her as well. Plus, he seems to want to reconcile. It is indeed a very complicated marriage.


He did lie, and should not have done that, no question. And I hope that issue was resolved to the family's satisfaction. How we don't know yet (family, in law bail out? Business self correct in time?)

But the whole marriage was effectively a lie. If not for the original sin, they wouldn't even be together. She needs to get to a point where she understands just how grave her actions were -- and now continue to be. How? Counseling? We usually advocate counseling is a waste of time if a WS won't come clean.

We also are left to wonder --- and at this point it is pure speculation -- just how faithful she was from 1998 -2012. He has no evidence to the contrary. But cheat once, makes it much easier to cheat again. Faithful for 14 years, that would be in doubt. At this point everything is in doubt. Check for old AOL accounts. Kidding. Kind of.

The first step is getting her to come clean on 16 years ago. or if there is somehow an innocent explanation behind this letter, let's hear it. I don't remember doesn't cut it. Once this is resolved only then can they begin to work on ironing out the rest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

It is tough to dig out the useful information in MJP's post. A lot of it is he said/she said. He says the marriage was good, she says it was not, he says that they were engaged when she played slap and tickle with Mike, she says that they were not, he says that the financial issues were dealt with, she says not. See what I mean? I applaud MJP for being truthful , but would ask him to elaborate further. 
The thorniest issue seems to be that he lied about the financial issues. She seems to have held that against him. He might get to the moral high ground, but it will be a tough climb.
I would like to ask you , MJP. Do you think you can have an honest, "come to Jesus" talk with your wife? Do you think that if she admits to the affair , that you can reconcile?
I think that the first order of business is for you to find out what YOU want.


----------



## Rookie4

PhillyGuy13 said:


> He did lie, and should not have done that, no question. And I hope that issue was resolved to the family's satisfaction. How we don't know yet (family, in law bail out? Business self correct in time?)
> 
> But the whole marriage was effectively a lie. If not for the original sin, they wouldn't even be together. She needs to get to a point where she understands just how grave her actions were -- and now continue to be. How? Counseling? We usually advocate counseling is a waste of time if a WS won't come clean.
> 
> We also are left to wonder --- and at this point it is pure speculation -- just how faithful she was from 1998 -2012. He has no evidence to the contrary. But cheat once, makes it much easier to cheat again. Faithful for 14 years, that would be in doubt. At this point everything is in doubt. Check for old AOL accounts. Kidding. Kind of.
> 
> The first step is getting her to come clean on 16 years ago. or if there is somehow an innocent explanation behind this letter, let's hear it. I don't remember doesn't cut it. Once this is resolved only then can they begin to work on ironing out the rest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You bring up a lot of good points, Phill. But we simply don't know enough about both MJP's and his wife's mindset. How much anger is there between them, and how much resentment does his wife hold against him for their financial crisis? Who is right about the issue from years ago. Were they formally engaged? Or did they have an unspoken understanding? These things we need to know to be able to give good advice. Running off half ****ed doesn't help nor does going nuclear.


----------



## Chaparral

Just because she told her boy friend the marriage was no good means nothing. Cheaters lie about that all the time to keep their ap hooked and to keep from looking cheap. Otoh, she may believe it, if true though why would she freak at the op walking out. Sounds more like she just wanted/wants a little on the side.

What does she say about a no contact letter and dumping facebook?

A var would also tell if this has gone to the burner phone stage.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> (this was spring/summer of '98, we got married in spring '99; we had dated exclusively for at least 4-5 years prior, and got engaged in winter of '97/'98).


I know some people might argue they were dating. Sorry, at that point, you are cheating on me because the plans are close to being complete. A year or less out? She was lying to you before the marriage started. Quit accepting equal blame for something that happened LOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNGGGGG before you lied about the financials.


----------



## convert

people have different "deal breakers" when it comes to pull the trigger on divorce.
OP does not know for sure if it has been physical in recent times; if it helps OP on deciding what to do then the Investigation mode is warranted here.
and he can also work on any issue(s) in the marriage at the same time.
her telling OM the marriage is not good is to keep OM in the picture, it is her justification to keep a relationship with OM.
If OP already knows enough then snooping would be a waste of time.
I think it would be extreme to divorce here in this case without more information.
even Rookie went straight to divorce with his WW so he had enough evidence/information to decide.
I don't know if OP does have what he needs here yet to make a decision.

Rookie (I am not being confrontational here I am just trying to see your mind set) how did you find out about your exww, did you investigate any at all? and yes sometimes getting caught snooping does through a monkey wrench into the mix


----------



## bandit.45

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I know some people might argue they were dating. Sorry, at that point, you are cheating on me because the plans are close to being complete. A year or less out? She was lying to you before the marriage started. Quit accepting equal blame for something that happened LOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNGGGGG before you lied about the financials.


They were engaged. They were supposed to be in an exclusive relationship saving themselves for each other and for marriage. She flat cheated on him while he was busting his ass in AK. 

I've been around a few women. From the minute that ring is on their finger they are planning their wedding: dresses, venues, flowers, cake, invitations...it never stops until the big day. 

I'll bet his wife had a stack of bridal magazines on her coffee table while having the OM over for visits. 

If I were him I would be beyond furious.


----------



## badmemory

mjp said:


> I do think she was keeping things open in case our marriage failed though.


I see this a little differently mjp. It seems to me she started fishing for an exit affair after you pissed her off. And the best candidate to start with? How about the old BF that she screwed around with while you were engaged. The one she can't remember if she had sex with.


----------



## Rookie4

bandit.45 said:


> They were engaged. They were supposed to be in an exclusive relationship saving themselves for each other and for marriage. She flat cheated on him while he was busting his ass in AK.
> 
> I've been around a few women. From the minute that ring is on their finger they are planning their wedding: dresses, venues, flowers, cake, invitations...it never stops until the big day.
> 
> I'll bet his wife had a stack of bridal magazines on her coffee table while having the OM over for visits.
> 
> If I were him I would be beyond furious.


Sorry, Bandit, but that is speculation. I think that the OP has done a good job providing info, but we still need more to give him good advice, and not just vent our anger on his wife.
MJP, You came here for advice, well , you will get a little , but mostly you will get a lot of angry folks venting their own anger and trying to act tough. You are already angry, now what you need to be is smart. You already know enough to divorce. If my wife had done what yours has, I would be showing her the door from the outside. But that is your decision to make, not ours. The questions that some posters are asking you are very relevant. You need to be sure that you get it right, because if you are wrong, she will use it against you. Just like she is with your lying . 
Were you FORMALLY engaged? If so, then you have her dead to rights. If not, then she can always say that she didin't do anything wrong. BTW, (don't believe her about having sex with him) of course she remembers.. Be as accurate as possible, when you talk to her. Don't threaten, don't rant, be calm and straightforward. State your concerns, but don't argue. If you argue, she will use every weapon she has against you, and what you want, is for her to be defenseless. If you do this right, she won't have a leg to stand on. If you choose to R, you already have the best weapon, that is that she doesn't want to divorce. Don't threaten her with it, just state that it is a possibility, IF she isn't honest. thereby putting the pressure back on her.
See where I'm going with this? You can always ratchet up the pressure , and always try to disarm her. Always try to put her in the wrong, and make her defend her actions. That is also why I said that if you haven't apologized for lying, do so now. It takes a weapon away from her, the same with the engagement and the same with the lunch date. USE those weapons. This really sucks for you, but if you work smart, you will come out of this the winner. I


----------



## x598

Chaparral said:


> Just because she told her boy friend the marriage was no good means nothing. Cheaters lie about that all the time to keep their ap hooked and to keep from looking cheap. Otoh, she may believe it, if true though why would she freak at the op walking out. Sounds more like she just wanted/wants a little on the side.
> 
> What does she say about a no contact letter and dumping facebook?
> 
> A var would also tell if this has gone to the burner phone stage.


its easy to tell in my mind if the WW is lying when they say "how bad the marriage was"......the fact that they want to R!

if it was so bad before, then D should be what they want. just another standard line from the script.


----------



## bandit.45

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, Bandit, but that is speculation. I think that the OP has done a good job providing info, but we still need more to give him good advice, and not just vent our anger on his wife.
> MJP, You came here for advice, well , you will get a little , but mostly you will get a lot of angry folks venting their own anger and trying to act tough. I


I don't follow you. 

He provided us the timeline. They were engaged...ENGAGED...during winter of 97-98. The spring/summer of 98 is when he left to AK and around that time she started her fling with the OM. 

I don't really see where there is any speculation. 

The contrails from his jet to Alaska hadn't even dissipated and she was already keeping company with the OM.


----------



## Rookie4

bandit.45 said:


> I don't follow you.
> 
> He provided us the timeline. They were engaged...ENGAGED...during winter of 97-98. The spring/summer of 98 is when he left to AK and around that time she started her fling with the OM.
> 
> I don't really see where there is any speculation.
> 
> The contrails from his jet to Alaska hadn't even dissipated and she was already keeping company with the OM.


Don't get me wrong, Bandit. What I'm trying to get at , is if it were a formal engagement, with the ring and all that it entails. If it was, then the OP can claim the moral high ground without argument and the OP's lying about the finances won't matter.. If not, it will be harder for him to deflect her idea of having a Mulligan for her contact with Mike. It is really important that he have his ducks in a row. This is one of them. It takes more to become engaged than just saying so. With all of the he said/ she said contradictions, we need to get down to facts.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Well, even if they weren't officially engaged, were quasi-engaged, or just dating, I assume they were in a committed relationship. If she was cheating isn't that bad enough.

I agree we need more info, but I don't think OP is going to come back and now say, oh wait I misremembered. We weren't engaged. She was just some chick I hooked up with now and then. 

I'm wondering if MJP will be back. Hopefully if he is reading he understands we are all trying to help him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

convert said:


> people have different "deal breakers" when it comes to pull the trigger on divorce.
> OP does not know for sure if it has been physical in recent times; if it helps OP on deciding what to do then the Investigation mode is warranted here.
> and he can also work on any issue(s) in the marriage at the same time.
> her telling OM the marriage is not good is to keep OM in the picture, it is her justification to keep a relationship with OM.
> If OP already knows enough then snooping would be a waste of time.
> I think it would be extreme to divorce here in this case without more information.
> even Rookie went straight to divorce with his WW so he had enough evidence/information to decide.
> I don't know if OP does have what he needs here yet to make a decision.
> 
> Rookie (I am not being confrontational here I am just trying to see your mind set) how did you find out about your exww, did you investigate any at all? and yes sometimes getting caught snooping does through a monkey wrench into the mix


I don't want to T/J, Convert, but no...my wife confessed during a heated argument. So no I didn't investigate.


----------



## bandit.45

Rookie4 said:


> Don't get me wrong, Bandit. What I'm trying to get at , is if it were a formal engagement, with the ring and all that it entails. If it was, then the OP can claim the moral high ground without argument and the OP's lying about the finances won't matter.. If not, it will be harder for him to deflect her idea of having a Mulligan for her contact with Mike. It is really important that he have his ducks in a row. This is one of them. It takes more to become engaged than just saying so. With all of the he said/ she said contradictions, we need to get down to facts.


Maybe. 

But what it comes down to is that they were in an exclusive relationship. They had been for 4 years or so. There is a implied contract of mutual chastity there, wether there is a ring on her finger or not. 

So while he was in Alaska alone, beating off and fantasizing about being with her, she was in the lower 48 having cozy time with the OM. She would have taken this dirty little secret to the grave had he not found the FB messages. He left for Alaska, she saw her chance to have a little fun while he was gone, and she went for it. Is this exactly how it happened? Maybe not. But I'll bet I'm damn close. 

She allowed him to marry her under false pretenses. Hers was the greater deception in my opinion. You can mend a broken bank account. You can pay off debts and get square with the Feds. You can't fix a broken heart so easily. 

How many times have we seen this on TAM? The wedding is approaching and one fiancée decides that he or she wants to have one last romp with some strange before taking the plunge with their partner. So many similar stories. It's sad how stupid some are.


----------



## mjp

I am absolutely reading every word here. I haven't had much of a chance to post, as I as working til midnite, the up w kids, to school , and back at work - I can't really post while working so this will be brief.

Had some intense discussions w her yesterday and late last nite. She showed me his cell number (which I somehow missed when I looked on her phone ) and I checked all Verizon records - her calls, texts, everything Over the last 2 years or so. As she told me, there was nothing there, other than the 1 call after he messages her the old letter on FB. I'm starting to feel comfortable that the recent relationship was relatively innocent / at least not serious and not physical . 

For those asking, if the timing is correct (and we went through this last
Nite) we were ABSOLUTELY formally engaged. Couldn't have been any more serious type of thing.

She claimed she thought it was before, but accepted the proof and seemed ashamed/disappointed in herself/disgusted about her actions.

As it is so long ago, we are both slightly foggy on details - I don't KNOW that I was in AK at that specific time May-July '98, but I 
Fairly sure as I was doing that work around that time and there is no possible way she could have been pulled this off without my having at least some inkling/suspicion if I was
Home (we were living together at the time).

Thanks to all for your advice - I have read everything and will be responding as frequently as I can. I am still going to get VAR and key logger , although I don't think I'll get much anyway - will explain why later . I like the polygraph idea still and will do that if I don't feel I have resolution/full honesty on everything - she will do it if I ask. Also, I like the idea of FB messaging him as my wife and seeing how he responds . What do folks think of
That?


----------



## BobSimmons

Nah they banged. You pretty much don't spark up a relationship after so long unless it was some real hot and heavy forbidden lust and passion type stuff that went down.

OP messed up, she messed up. Call it evens but communicating stops like yesterday, sure the good old folks on TAM have told you this already


----------



## convert

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, Bandit, but that is speculation. I think that the OP has done a good job providing info, but we still need more to give him good advice, and not just vent our anger on his wife.
> MJP, You came here for advice, well , you will get a little , but mostly you will get a lot of angry folks venting their own anger and trying to act tough. You are already angry, now what you need to be is smart. *You already know enough to divorce. If my wife had done what yours has, I would be showing her the door from the outside.* But that is your decision to make, not ours. The questions that some posters are asking you are very relevant. You need to be sure that you get it right, because if you are wrong, she will use it against you. Just like she is with your lying .
> Were you FORMALLY engaged? If so, then you have her dead to rights. If not, then she can always say that she didin't do anything wrong. BTW, (don't believe her about having sex with him) of course she remembers.. Be as accurate as possible, when you talk to her. Don't threaten, don't rant, be calm and straightforward. State your concerns, but don't argue. If you argue, she will use every weapon she has against you, and what you want, is for her to be defenseless. If you do this right, she won't have a leg to stand on. If you choose to R, you already have the best weapon, that is that she doesn't want to divorce. Don't threaten her with it, just state that it is a possibility, IF she isn't honest. thereby putting the pressure back on her.
> See where I'm going with this? You can always ratchet up the pressure , and always try to disarm her. Always try to put her in the wrong, and make her defend her actions. That is also why I said that if you haven't apologized for lying, do so now. It takes a weapon away from her, the same with the engagement and the same with the lunch date. USE those weapons. This really sucks for you, but if you work smart, you will come out of this the winner. I



The bold part stood out to me.
I got to respect you for that.
I still think what he has here is not enough for divorce, but that is just me.
you know I think you are first one to bring that there is enough for divorce here is this thread, usually everyone else is screaming divorce kick'm to the curb.

*well crap i had posted this before i saw OP's last post here.*

still if nothing happened recent and you both want to try R, it is not impossible but it is hard...hard as [email protected]


----------



## Graywolf2

mjp said:


> For those asking, if the timing is correct (and we went through this last Nite) we were ABSOLUTELY formally engaged. Couldn't have been any more serious type of thing.


*So she admitted that she had sex with him when you were formally engaged and living together?*



mjp said:


> She claimed she thought it was before, but accepted the proof and seemed ashamed/disappointed in herself/disgusted about her actions.


*So in her mind she was living with you (not engaged), having sex with another guy when you were away and never told you about it before you got married? And that was OK? :scratchhead:*


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

bandit.45 said:


> Maybe.


Here's why she doesn't get a "mulligan" in my eyes. When problems arise in the relationship, she runs to this dude. When OP was gone for weeks/months at a time, which is hard on any relationship, she found a guy. When she felt betrayed by the financial lies, she ran to this same guy. 

Sorry, he's important and therefore she gets no pass in my book. Nope, not saying they can't reconcile. I am saying twice is not an accident or mulligan worthy. I might see it as a maybe if it wasn't the same guy who appear when there was trouble earlier.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

BobSimmons said:


> Nah they banged. You pretty much don't spark up a relationship after so long unless it was some real hot and heavy forbidden lust and passion type stuff that went down.
> 
> OP messed up, she messed up. Call it evens but communicating stops like yesterday, sure the good old folks on TAM have told you this already


Well, maybe they banged maybe not. I venture they would have eventually if given more time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## convert

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Well, maybe they banged maybe not. *I venture they would have eventually if given more time*.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


yes most likely


----------



## PhillyGuy13

No, I wouldn't pretend to be your wife and IM the other guy. 

IF they are in regular contact, she will tip him off that you are on to them, so they will both be on guard.

IM him as yourself, telling him to get lost. Or better yet have her do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

FORGOT TO ADD: do monitor all communications over next couple of weeks, to see if she updates him on your conversation last night. Don't let her know you are doing this and -- as best you can -- act like you now consider the matter resolved, put to bed, and forgotten.


----------



## mjp

Graywolf2 said:


> mjp said:
> 
> 
> 
> For those asking, if the timing is correct (and we went through this last Nite) we were ABSOLUTELY formally engaged. Couldn't have been any more serious type of thing.
> 
> 
> 
> *So she admitted that she had sex with him when you were formally engaged and living together?*
> 
> 
> 
> mjp said:
> 
> 
> 
> She claimed she thought it was before, but accepted the proof and seemed ashamed/disappointed in herself/disgusted about her actions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *So in her mind she was living with you (not engaged), having sex with another guy when you were away and never told you about it before you got married? And that was OK?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
Click to expand...

No she was not justifying it at all, admitted complete wrongdoing, upset with herself, didn't know what she was thinking , etc etc
I think she is remorseful about that, but we certainly haven't moved past it. 

The "had sex with him" part is actually somewhat complicated as well - at least not strait forward and I will get into that more when I have time. But I am still having some trouble dealing with this early betrayal and not sure how much details are "foggy" in
Her memory ( it was a few months relationship 16 yrs ago), and how much she didn't want to reveal because it makes her look bad.


----------



## bandit.45

Well...yeah...

She walked up to that alter to exchange vows with you. 

The whole time she was lying.


----------



## Rookie4

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Here's why she doesn't get a "mulligan" in my eyes. When problems arise in the relationship, she runs to this dude. When OP was gone for weeks/months at a time, which is hard on any relationship, she found a guy. When she felt betrayed by the financial lies, she ran to this same guy.
> 
> Sorry, he's important and therefore she gets no pass in my book. Nope, not saying they can't reconcile. I am saying twice is not an accident or mulligan worthy. I might see it as a maybe if it wasn't the same guy who appear when there was trouble earlier.


 I pretty much agree with this as well. But she obviously thinks different. There is no doubt that this guy is no friend of the marriage. OP, you can do what you want, but I think you are wasting money on the electronic gadgets. You have more than enough evidence to divorce, if you choose to do so. As far as trusting your wife, I would not let my guard down, if I were you.


----------



## Rookie4

Dude, do NOT buy that "i don't remember" cr*p. If , as you say, she was living with you, and the only other man to do the deed with her is Mike, then what exactly does she need to remember? I've known a LOT of women in my time, and Unless they were tr*mps , (and I'm not saying your wife is) they remember every man who put his _____ in their ____. For years and years. Think back, can you remember every woman you effed for 15 or 20 years? I'm betting you can. So can almost everybody else.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

mjp said:


> The "had sex with him" part is actually somewhat complicated as well - at least not strait forward and I will get into that more when I have time.


Sure it is straightforward and I've only read a few stories where I believe the wife and it was complicated. I'm not going to say what, but the reasons are few, far between and very simplistic in their complexity.


----------



## Graywolf2

Graywolf2 said:


> *So in her mind she was living with you (not engaged), having sex with another guy when you were away and never told you about it before you got married? And that was OK? :scratchhead:*





mjp said:


> No she was not justifying it at all, admitted complete wrongdoing, upset with herself, didn't know what she was thinking , etc etc I think she is remorseful about that.


*She seemed to become remorseful only when you worked out the date and determined that you were engaged. She was fine until then. 

What I’m asking is what is she admitting that she did wrong? Were her actions wrong ONLY because she was officially engaged? *

Another way to ask the same thing is does she think it would be OK to do the following if you WERE NOT engaged at the time:

1. Live with you and have sex with another guy when you were away 
2. Never tell you about it before you got married 

*She needs to FB the OM and tell him that she was engaged when she was seeing him. She's not the good girl he thinks she is. She will resist that big time.

Was the OM ever in the home you were sharing?*


----------



## mjp

She admitted she was wrong with the original affair from the beginning, and has definitely been upset about it. What she claimed she wasn't sure of was exactly when it was and if we were engaged of not -
She claimed she thought it was before. I think this is bull****.

And from what I can tell/what she says, he had no idea about me and didn't know she was engaged . Which if f-Ed up because what did she do, take her ring off before she went to class? (She was working as an athletic trainer and/or doing her student teaching at this time, and working on her graduate degree. They met in class. And she and I were living at my Dads house at the time, so she was probably living back at her moms house or with her sister at the time. So to put it ins perspective , I had been out of grad school and working for about 1-2 years at this point and she was in the last semester of her teaching degree. A few months later we got our 1st apartment together)

Basically , I was away,
She had this affair with this prick in her class. And she terminated it when I came home. So it was Maybe 2,3,4
Months Max. Still don't know how I was so blind to her true nature .

I should post "the letter".


----------



## Yeswecan

mjp said:


> I should post "the letter".


Objective view.


----------



## bandit.45

Post it.


----------



## Working1

Sorry you are going through this difficult time in your life MJP. 

Hiding financial problems of that nature from your spouse is evidence of an unhealthy interpersonal relationship on all levels and is an equal deal breaker as infidelity. Neither of you are the people you present yourselves to be. 

I would imagine the real problem here is needing to learn how to have healthy self identities interpersonal relationships that extend beyond your marriage and into other relationships in your life, as from the types of issues you present, I am guessing those are not necessarily what you see is what you get from either of you, but you in particular with regards to hiding financial problems.

I would not focus so much on the infidelity, but get help with learning how to pursue healthy dynamics in general. If you can do that, the rest will all fall into place and you will only see the infidelity as a symptom of poor communication and self identity issues. 

You want to learn how to be straightforward with who you are towards everybody and like yourself that way. Life's problems get a lot easier to deal with once you get out of your own way on that level.

Until then all of your interactions with your wife and others will be loaded and make it impossible to work towards a positive trustworthy communication.


----------



## Chaparral

Were there any calls or texts around the time they met up for coffee? Where did the coffee meet up take place in relation to your home?


----------



## italianjob

mjp said:


> No she was not justifying it at all, admitted complete wrongdoing, upset with herself, didn't know what she was thinking , etc etc
> I think she is remorseful about that, but we certainly haven't moved past it.
> 
> The "had sex with him" part is actually somewhat complicated as well - at least not strait forward and I will get into that more when I have time. But I am still having some trouble dealing with this early betrayal and *not sure how much details are "foggy" in
> Her memory ( it was a few months relationship 16 yrs ago), and how much she didn't want to reveal because it makes her look bad*.


What? Are you actually having doubts about this for real?
People remember very well their sexual relations for all their life, they know perfectly well who they had sex with and who they didn't... Foggy!!! :scratchhead:

To not rembeber something like that you should have an extremely promiscuous past, and from the story you've told it doesn't sound like she had 20-30 plus partners or something...

She seems remorseful, you said? Too bad she turned remorseful only when you added 2 and 2 and found out she had been banging this guy while already committed to you, albeit not married yet.
Just previous to that she felt entitled to chase the guy back into her life, to tell him how bad your marriage was and probably to restart their relationship... She wasn't remorseful at that point, huh?

OP, frankly, her 16 year old betrayal plus the simple fact of contacting him again would be more than enough for me to call it quits, but it's your call.
I guess you better do some snooping after all, but very discreetly and letting her think you've already shelved the question, you might be in for more surprises, I suspect...


----------



## mjp

No I have no doubts about the past relationship . She was dating this guy for a few months, and it was definitely a physical and emotional affair . They had sexual relations.

At this point I need to decide if that infidelity (along with her more recent contact with him) is enough for me to end the relationship. She wants to stay together and will basically do whatever I want at this point as far as full transparency .



italianjob said:


> mjp said:
> 
> 
> 
> No she was not justifying it at all, admitted complete wrongdoing, upset with herself, didn't know what she was thinking , etc etc
> I think she is remorseful about that, but we certainly haven't moved past it.
> 
> The "had sex with him" part is actually somewhat complicated as well - at least not strait forward and I will get into that more when I have time. But I am still having some trouble dealing with this early betrayal and *not sure how much details are "foggy" in
> Her memory ( it was a few months relationship 16 yrs ago), and how much she didn't want to reveal because it makes her look bad*.
> 
> 
> 
> What? Are you actually having doubts about this for real?
> People remember very well their sexual relations for all their life, they know perfectly well who they had sex with and who they didn't... Foggy!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To not rembeber something like that you should have an extremely promiscuous past, and from the story you've told it doesn't sound like she had 20-30 plus partners or something...
> 
> She seems remorseful, you said? Too bad she turned remorseful only when you added 2 and 2 and found out she had been banging this guy while already committed to you, albeit not married yet.
> Just previous to that she felt entitled to chase the guy back into her life, to tell him how bad your marriage was and probably to restart their relationship... She wasn't remorseful at that point, huh?
> 
> OP, frankly, her 16 year old betrayal plus the simple fact of contacting him again would be more than enough for me to call it quits, but it's your call.
> I guess you better do some snooping after all, but very discreetly and letting her think you've already shelved the question, you might be in for more surprises, I suspect...
Click to expand...


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## the guy

Thats a start, but you are now a new member of the cheater police so get busy and confirming your old ladies commitment


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## bandit.45

If you had not caught them when you did, she would have resumed her affair with him. She didn't stop out of guilt or remorse. She stopped because you nailed them. 

Think about that. You need to get into her head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tobyboy

It takes a very sick individual to cheat during engagement and then proceed with the wedding like......nothing!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dyokemm

"It takes a very sick individual to cheat during engagement and then proceed with the wedding like......nothing!!!"

I agree.

IMO, and I know many will disagree and that's OK, it erases any good that she did after essentially deceiving him into M.

I know I couldn't stay.


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## PhillyGuy13

She may have had "good" intentions in not seeing the other man after the 1998 affair and subsequent marriage.

Time goes by. Today's internet makes it very easy for old friends to find each other and reconnect. That's great in most cases, but it also becomes a simple tool for the weak-willed to also reconnect with old friends (affair partners). Tough to hide from your past when someone who lives across the country lives virtually next door. There is no hiding from your past these days.

Individuals with a history of infidelity involving the internet should give up all the social media, for their own good and for the good of the marriage. Go with a "couples" profile instead that both have access to. (In my opinion)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TRy

mjp said:


> No I have no doubts about the past relationship . She was dating this guy for a few months, and it was definitely a physical and emotional affair . They had sexual relations.
> 
> At this point I need to decide if that infidelity (along with her more recent contact with him) is enough for me to end the relationship.


 What your wife does not understand is that although the affair is history to her, it is current news to you. Her betrayal and the deceit is still very fresh to you. It typically takes years to deal with and process being cheated on, and for you that process just started. The fact that she was recently seeing and communicating with her affair partner behind your back, only makes matters worse as far as bringing this past affair into the present. The fact is that even if her recent meeting with her affair partner did not include any physical cheating, the current emotional affair (EA) with a past physical affair (PA) partner could have easily become a PA had you not discovered it. Also, having an EA is still cheating that even without the past cheating is a betrayal of your marriage. 

The bottom line is that from early on in your relationship and in the present, your wife has proven by her actions that she is not a partner that you can trust. Trust is the number one most important thing that you need in a marriage partner as you face the world together, united in dealing with the issues that life will throw at you. I for one, could not stay in such a marriage for long. There is someone out there that would thank God everyday that they have someone like you in their life, and that understands what it means to be a loyal and trustworthy partner. Once you have someone like that in your marriage, you will look back and wonder why you stayed so long in this current marriage.


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## TRy

@mjp: 

You have good person syndrome (GPS); although you are human and thus not perfect, you always try to do the right thing and feel guilty when you do not, even if it was unintentional. Your wife will manipulate you with this knowledge. Knowing that you have GPS, she has known reference points from which to argue, where if she hits on one of these do the right thing issues, she knows that you will acknowledge that she has won her point. Your wife has no such GPS reference points, thus it will be difficult to get her to acknowledge that you have won your point or that she did anything wrong. For example, as a person with GPS, she knows that you are bound to being truthful and will acknowledge weaknesses in what you know and do not know. She on the other hand is not bound to being truthful and feels no guilt for having selective memory, where she will remember with detail points that help her and forget things that hurt her. This dynamic puts you at a decisive disadvantage in every discussion where you try to reason with her, and make getting her to do the right thing, difficult and draining.

If you read other threads in the infidelity section, you will see that it is common for the betrayed to say that their cheater spouse is very good at turning things back on them when they argue about the cheating. That is because when the betrayed has GPS and the cheater is not bound by the truth, the game is rigged against the betrayed.


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## bandit.45

The pre-marital cheating aside, her disloyalty and faithlessness towards you and the marriage demonstrates that she will bail on you when the going gets rough. 

If it had not been with this old boyfriend it would have been someone else. I have every belief she would have left you for this clown had you not discovered the FB messages.


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## bandit.45

Dyokemm said:


> "It takes a very sick individual to cheat during engagement and then proceed with the wedding like......nothing!!!"
> 
> I agree.
> 
> IMO, and I know many will disagree and that's OK, it erases any good that she did after essentially deceiving him into M.
> 
> I know I couldn't stay.


Add selfish and heartless to that.


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## warlock07

mjp said:


> I am absolutely reading every word here. I haven't had much of a chance to post, as I as working til midnite, the up w kids, to school , and back at work - I can't really post while working so this will be brief.
> 
> Had some intense discussions w her yesterday and late last nite. She showed me his cell number (which I somehow missed when I looked on her phone ) and I checked all Verizon records - her calls, texts, everything Over the last 2 years or so. As she told me, there was nothing there, other than the 1 call after he messages her the old letter on FB. I'm starting to feel comfortable that the recent relationship was relatively innocent / at least not serious and not physical .
> 
> For those asking, if the timing is correct (and we went through this last
> Nite) we were ABSOLUTELY formally engaged. Couldn't have been any more serious type of thing.
> 
> She claimed she thought it was before, but accepted the proof and seemed ashamed/disappointed in herself/disgusted about her actions.
> 
> As it is so long ago, we are both slightly foggy on details - I don't KNOW that I was in AK at that specific time May-July '98, but I
> Fairly sure as I was doing that work around that time and there is no possible way she could have been pulled this off without my having at least some inkling/suspicion if I was
> Home (we were living together at the time).
> 
> Thanks to all for your advice - I have read everything and will be responding as frequently as I can. I am still going to get VAR and key logger , although I don't think I'll get much anyway - will explain why later . I like the polygraph idea still and will do that if I don't feel I have resolution/full honesty on everything - she will do it if I ask. Also, I like the idea of FB messaging him as my wife and seeing how he responds . What do folks think of
> That?


You do know about chat apps(whatsapp, imessage), right ?Not saying that she did use them or not but if they used chat apps, then it wouldn't show up on the records.

I think you can download Facebook data.You should try doing that.


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## warlock07

mjp said:


> She admitted she was wrong with the original affair from the beginning, and has definitely been upset about it. What she claimed she wasn't sure of was exactly when it was and if we were engaged of not -
> She claimed she thought it was before. I think this is bull****.
> 
> And from what I can tell/what she says, he had no idea about me and didn't know she was engaged . Which if f-Ed up because what did she do, take her ring off before she went to class? (She was working as an athletic trainer and/or doing her student teaching at this time, and working on her graduate degree. They met in class. And she and I were living at my Dads house at the time, so she was probably living back at her moms house or with her sister at the time. So to put it ins perspective , I had been out of grad school and working for about 1-2 years at this point and she was in the last semester of her teaching degree. A few months later we got our 1st apartment together)
> 
> Basically , I was away,
> She had this affair with this prick in her class. And she terminated it when I came home. So it was Maybe 2,3,4
> Months Max. Still don't know how I was so blind to her true nature .
> 
> I should post "the letter".


The layers are peeling off as you keep pushing her with logic and calling her put on her bull****. 

And having done what she did, isn't it particularly aggravating that she would point out your lies about finances(while wrong, were not out of malice) repeatedly during the marriage ? I would bet she would use them whenever she needed to shut you up or one up you in an argument.


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## warlock07

mjp said:


> No I have no doubts about the past relationship . She was dating this guy for a few months, and it was definitely a physical and emotional affair . They had sexual relations.
> 
> At this point I need to decide if that infidelity (along with her more recent contact with him) is enough for me to end the relationship. She wants to stay together and will basically do whatever I want at this point as far as full transparency .



Say, you cheat on her now for a few months and tell her 15-16 years later, would she be ok with it ?

We've seen stories like your on TAM a few times. The husband finding out about the wife's infidelity prior to the marriage or in early stages of the marriage.


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## jim123

mjp said:


> No I have no doubts about the past relationship . She was dating this guy for a few months, and it was definitely a physical and emotional affair . They had sexual relations.
> 
> At this point I need to decide if that infidelity (along with her more recent contact with him) is enough for me to end the relationship. She wants to stay together and will basically do whatever I want at this point as far as full transparency .


Now that you have no doubts about the prior now stop having doubts about the current.

She was in contact with him for years and had met him at least once. You know the truth. Stop letting her lie. Take action now.


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## sidney2718

mjp said:


> No I have no doubts about the past relationship . She was dating this guy for a few months, and it was definitely a physical and emotional affair . They had sexual relations.
> 
> At this point I need to decide if that infidelity (along with her more recent contact with him) is enough for me to end the relationship. She wants to stay together and will basically do whatever I want at this point as far as full transparency .


Full transparency isn't nearly enough. Has she shown remorse?

If you are willing to reconcile, she has to be totally open to you and answer all questions. Why? Because as it is now you can no longer trust her. If she wants to try to get you to trust her you have to be able to ask questions and get them answered.

You might also try to find out what she finds wrong with your marriage. That there may be things wrong does not justify the affair(s), but the wrongs have to be addressed (on both sides) for reconciliation to have a chance.

And be realistic. The number of marriages that recover from this sort of thing is small. Why? Because your doubts will always be there unless she works extraordinarily hard to erase those doubts.

And yes, no reason why you should not discuss all this with her. But if you do, do it in a calm rational way with no screaming and yelling. Screaming and yelling come from anger and anger comes from being pushed in an unwanted direction. So if she screams and yells, you will know what is going on.


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## phillybeffandswiss

. So, what exactly was your lie about with the financials? I'm curious because I don't see it as equal as infidelity except for a very specific reason.


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## mjp

Short story: I had a bunch of receivables out, couldn't /wasn't collecting mostly due to my own fault. Got behind w subs, etc and eventually was not able to pay personal bills as well. Was behind on mortgage payments and wracked up pretty large tax debt as well. I didn't tell her about these - basically just told her everything was fine, I would take care of it, etc - IRS doesn't wait too long for their money before **** starts hitting fan. 
Overall it wasn't a huge amount to overcome - we had some money set aside as she had/has a solid job and was putting most of her salary away. Between that and some loans from family we were able to pay things off and are no longer in any sort of debt.

It was more the fact that I wasn't forthcoming with her, and she kept getting hit with new information/problems. 

Definitely a bad time for us, but also not a completely unheard of situation.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Thanks. It is what I thought. Yeah, that isn't the same as infidelity to me. It's was wrong and you shouldn't get a pass, but they are not equal.


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## mjp

My gut feeling after going through all the records I can, and speaking with her at length, us that the recent contact was not an affair. Unless she was super duper cautious/smart about hiding it and had already ended it several months (or perhaps longer ) prior. The evidence supports what she has told me - that there were few, sporadic exchanges on FB (for the most part innocuous/innocent ). I don't think it was even enough to consider an EA . With that said, the coffee meeting feels like betrayal to me, and still has me questioning things (although she did volunteer that info of her own accord ).

I'm having trouble still with the previous relationship, and don't know if I can reconcile successfully with her due to it. If we didn't have young kids it would probably be easier split. I do still love her so I may also be allowing that to influence me toward reconciling. 

I have the OM cell phone and access to my wife's FB as well. I'm thinking I may try to get info from him somehow regarding both issues. I'm still not 100% on the timing of their pre-marital affair - although either way we were in a fully committed relationship at the time.


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## PhillyGuy13

If this guy was an ex boyfriend from her past, before she met you, that would be one thing. Still would be frowned upon by many of us but a different situation. An old bf sending "hi, how are you, your kids are cute!" Is different.

This was a guy she cheated on you with, that you has zero clue about, which then eliminates any benefit of the doubt now referring their intentions. I agree with you that nothing physical happened this time around, but as I said earlier, nothing happened YET.

You have a long history with her and young kids, so do all you can to get things on track, if possible. Is she willing to go to marriage counseling with you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workindad

mjp said:


> She admitted she was wrong with the original affair from the beginning, and has definitely been upset about it. What she claimed she wasn't sure of was exactly when it was and if we were engaged of not -
> She claimed she thought it was before. I think this is bull****.
> 
> And from what I can tell/what she says, he had no idea about me and didn't know she was engaged . Which if f-Ed up because *what did she do, take her ring off before she went to class?*:scratchhead::scratchhead: (She was working as an athletic trainer and/or doing her student teaching at this time, and working on her graduate degree. They met in class. And she and I were living at my Dads house at the time, so she was probably living back at her moms house or with her sister at the time. So to put it ins perspective , I had been out of grad school and working for about 1-2 years at this point and she was in the last semester of her teaching degree. A few months later we got our 1st apartment together)
> 
> Basically , I was away,
> She had this affair with this prick in her class. And she terminated it when I came home. So it was Maybe 2,3,4
> Months Max. Still don't know how I was so blind to her true nature .
> 
> I should post "the letter".


At least you realize that she is still lying about the details from the past.

I guess that is what would concern me the most now. How much lying could she be doing about the present. Obviously, she has no issue cheating on you and lying to you as that is well established.

Maybe she just met him for coffee?? But why, after all those years with just a few scant messages would she? Sorry, but this has me thinking you are still scratching the surface.

Insist on a polygraph and follow through. 

Maybe she told you of the coffee date- yes that is what it was, because she feared being found out since it was in a public setting. Maybe she did it to throw you off with a partial truth- met for coffee- then off to a local hotel.

Bottom line- you can't take her at her word. Also- if she was willing to accept his contact and go out of her way to meet her previous cheating partner all while hiding it from you- then she certainly has no respect for you or the marriage.

Get a VAR and keylogger in place ASAP.

Good luck
WD


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## Dyokemm

"Maybe she just met him for coffee?? But why, after all those years with just a few scant messages would she?"

This is a very important point IMO....and one she definitely owes you an explanation about.

Ask her what in the he** was she thinking even talking to this POS ever again, much less meeting him.

She da*n well knew this was not just some innocent 'friend' even if you were in the dark.

She needs to explain to you how she justified to herself talking to/meeting this POS knowing she had cheated on you with this scumbag in the past.

I think this is almost as great a betrayal as the original cheating itself....totally disrespectful.


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## jnj express

Instead of going thru all of the deceit, you are thinking of---(baiting her X-lover on her facebook), and planting VAR's, which if push comes to shove---gives her ammo to go with your prior hiding of finances deceit,----just demand a POLY---get it over and done with----also make sure you ask what her thought processes were as to meeting up with an X-lover that she had sex with, even as she was engaged to be married to you---------

Seems this guy very easily sways her----and that is a major problem for you---if this guy can sweet talk her into what he wants---WHEN SHE KNOWS DA*N WELL SHE IS A MARRIED WOMAN AND MOTHER-----one question and one question only----WHAT IS SHE DOING SEEING A SINGLE MAN, ON HER OWN BEHIND YOUR BACK---WHEN ALL OF THE ABOVE APPLY


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## snerg

mjp said:


> My gut feeling after going through all the records I can, and speaking with her at length, us that the recent contact was not an affair. Unless she was super duper cautious/smart about hiding it and had already ended it several months (or perhaps longer ) prior. The evidence supports what she has told me - that there were few, sporadic exchanges on FB (for the most part innocuous/innocent ). I don't think it was even enough to consider an EA . With that said, the coffee meeting feels like betrayal to me, and still has me questioning things (although she did volunteer that info of her own accord ).


But you're missing the point. 

You're blinded by what you think she is.

Let me put it this way.

She hooked back up with her AP. Was she fishing for an affair? Was he fishing for an affair? Was she connecting back up with him to refresh her memories and feelings of her affair that she got away with? 

You should be asking her *Out of ALL PEOPLE IN THE WORLD * why hook up with this guy to complain about you?

You need to step back, look at your relationship from a position of no emotion (I know, I know, that is easy to type out yet hard to actually implement), and take note of what actually occurred.

Trouble with money and hiding that fact - stupid on your part, yet not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things

Having an affair while engaged (I hope you realize that her being foggy of the dates is pure bull schmidt - a woman knows exactly when she was engaged. My mother is in her late 80's and tell you the exact date and time when she became engaged), with holding that information, getting married, then revisiting her AP many years later - way way way out of bounds.


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## bandit.45

snerg said:


> But you're missing the point.
> 
> You're blinded by what you think she is.
> 
> Let me put it this way.
> 
> She hooked back up with her AP. Was she fishing for an affair? Was he fishing for an affair? Was she connecting back up with him to refresh her memories and feelings of her affair that she got away with?
> 
> You should be asking her *Out of ALL PEOPLE IN THE WORLD * why hook up with this guy to complain about you?
> 
> You need to step back, look at your relationship from a position of no emotion (I know, I know, that is easy to type out yet hard to actually implement), and take note of what actually occurred.
> 
> Trouble with money and hiding that fact - stupid on your part, yet not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things
> 
> Having an affair while engaged (I hope you realize that her being foggy of the dates is pure bull schmidt - a woman knows exactly when she was engaged. My mother is in her late 80's and tell you the exact date and time when she became engaged), with holding that information, getting married, then revisiting her AP many years later - way way way out of bounds.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Read what Snerg wrote and read it over and over. 

Women remember things. That's why they are women. They don't forget this kind of important stuff like us dipsh!t guys do. Your wife remembers EXACTLY when she was banging this guy in relation to your wedding. Do not fall for her act. She remembers how he made her feel, she remembers planning their trysts, she remembers taking off her ring before having sex with him. She's insulting your intelligence. 

It takes a cold woman to do that to a man she claims to have loved. It takes an even colder woman to go back to this lover after two decades when things are going bad in the marriage. 

Like Snerg asked....why him? Of all the guys she could be corresponding with and telling her troubles to....why him?


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## TRy

mjp said:


> My gut feeling after going through all the records I can, and speaking with her at length, us that the recent contact was not an affair. Unless she was super duper cautious/smart about hiding it and had already ended it several months (or perhaps longer ) prior. The evidence supports what she has told me - that there were few, sporadic exchanges on FB (for the most part innocuous/innocent ). I don't think it was even enough to consider an EA . With that said, the coffee meeting feels like betrayal to me, and still has me questioning things (although she did volunteer that info of her own accord ).


 Based on her recent lying to your face about the full blow affair while living with you and being engaged to be married to you, you should not believe that you know all of the facts. She may have told you about her recently meeting again with her affair partner because she knew that there was evidence out there that she thought that you had already found. If so then there is other ways that she has been communicating with him that you have not discovered yet. Case in point, the very fact that you would not know about the coffee meeting unless she told you, proves that they were able to set up a meeting and meet without you ever knowing.


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## phillybeffandswiss

. Unless you have kids with the person, in my opinion, there is no REASON to contact an ex again. You broke up for a reason and reminiscing, to me, is going to turn to how "it was."


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## Dyokemm

"Unless you have kids with the person, in my opinion, there is no REASON to contact an ex again. You broke up for a reason and reminiscing, to me, is going to turn to how "it was."

I think it is even more da*ning that this WASN'T truly an 'ex' in the traditional sense, as in a bf from before OP and her met.

This was a POS AP that she cheated on her then fiance, now H, with....and she followed up that disgusting behavior by hiding this from OP for 16 years.....and has now added to the betrayal and disrespect by getting in touch with this POS for 3 years, including meeting at least once.

mjp,

Don't give up on looking even deeper into the more recent connection....she may have been VERY secretive about her main mode of communication with him, and the FB messages were deliberately made to give the appearance of innocence.

After all, she knew exactly who this POS was and her past connection/history....BUT you didn't and she would had to have known she better have a very innocent seeming reason to be talking to him at all.

What better story than him being an old school colleague...and she could have a 'cover' FB history to back up this lie and provide a smoke screen for other, more private and secret forms of communicating.

Maybe the recent history is truly innocent, but it seems a hugely stupid risk on her part to be talking to, and meeting, a hidden ex-AP POS for 3 years for what seems so trivial a reason....why would she bother to even run the risk?

There may be more to the recent communications and meetings that she still has hidden from you.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Not picking at you, but we will disagree on the "truly" part. I'm not going to give him any more "mind movies" with an explanation.


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## Dyokemm

"Not picking at you, but we will disagree on the "truly" part. I'm not going to give him any more "mind movies" with an explanation."

No offense taken....I just think that this is worse than a simple ex-bf she was contacting again.

He was a POS AP.

As several posters have said, of all people why recontact a person you betrayed your spouse with?


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## phillybeffandswiss

Dyokemm said:


> He was a POS AP.
> 
> As several posters have said, of all people why recontact a person you betrayed your spouse with?


Oh, we agree on that part. I'd be digging for contact over the years.


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## Dyokemm

"Oh, we agree on that part. I'd be digging for contact over the years."

Oh...I see now...I guess you were referring to my comment that maybe the recent communicating was 'truly' innocent after all.

I take it you do not think this is at all possible.

As I said in my post, I have a suspicious doubt about that too.

It seems an awful lot of risk for essentially no reward to be contacting an ex-AP casually like this....that is IF the messages mjp has been able to see were really the extent of it.

That's why I told him to keep digging to see if there are other hidden communications he has yet to find.

It makes no sense that she would risk exposing an A she had 16 years ago for basically nothing....most people in her situation, if they had no intention of ever rekindling the A, would avoid talking to the old AP like they had the plague....it is not logically worth the risk of the exposure she just went through.

So WHY was she willing to risk it?

That's why mjp should keep digging into the more recent events.


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## Chaparral

Have you checked credit/debit card purchases for the last three years? Especially around the time they had coffee?

None of this passes the sniff test.


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