# Double standard of when wife claims she is just a sex object?



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I've read so many threads and also received so many earfuls from my own wife that she feels that I only care about sex and not her. I definitely love my wife for who she is and yes I am guilty of wanting to enjoy sex more often than she feels comfortable giving it to me. At the same time all the threads I read about men being accused of this also claim to love their wives as a person beyond belief. So what gives!

My wife was complaining to me the other day that once again that I just wanted her for sex. I turned the tables on her and complained that she can only see me as a penis in the house that just needs sex and not for the husband that truly loves her. I told her that viewing me solely as an object that only needs sex to be happy disgusted me and that if she has not gotten the message by now that I love her as a person it is because SHE is the one guilty of seeing me as just a sex object. 

She stood in the doorway with a blank face, turned around, and then walked away. 

Now I can deal with this and I am not upset or hurt in anyway. But it is as if I am starting to see the light a little better. If I try to be romantic and buy my wife flowers for no reason on a day that I am not even thinking about sex, when I give them to her she assumes I am giving them to her because A) I feel guilty about something or B) I want sex. We've gotten in heated discussions before where I call her out on these things and she admits that as a husband that I do everything I should to let her know that I love her but she says for reasons she can't understand that she does not fully believe that I love her. 

I'm starting to think that the message given by society/church/parents/friends that the only thing most men want is to "get into a woman's pants" does serious harm. 

Then I'm guilty of getting irritable sometimes if my wife does not make it a priority for us to be intimate, NOT because I need intimacy to be happy but because I put a great deal of work into my marriage and often do not feel like my wife would be willing to do the same for things I ask of her. That is what makes me irritable, and then I get blamed that my irritability is from not getting any sex which only makes it worse. When I'm talking about putting work into my marriage, I'm talking about making it a point to educate myself on a topic when my wife complains to me so that I can understand a different point of view when I do not agree with her on something so that we can settle a debate in a civilized way. But her reoccurring complaint that I just want her for sex, is NOT something I can educate myself about any further OR try to explain to her the ways in which I love her.

I'm a big boy and I can deal with this, but in my opinion it is a DOUBLE STANDARD, and women are the ones guilty of viewing us husbands solely as an object that wants sex while discounting every attempt of ours to tell you that we actually love YOU!!!

Somebody will reply with love languages, but this thread is for when even those fail to convey that us husbands love our wives. My wife needs me to give her words of affirmation which are met directly with her low self esteem and disbelief, acts of service which are met with her getting upset that I am just trying to get more sex, and gifts which are met with her getting upset that I am just trying to get more sex. 

Badsanta


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Be patient. And persevere. That will eventually win her trust.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

badsanta said:


> I'm starting to think that the message given by society/church/parents/friends that the only thing most men want is to "get into a woman's pants" does serious harm.


Do you really believe that society/church/parents and friends are where women get the idea that the only thing that men want is sex? 

Women get that idea _from the men themselves_ 

Sex _IS_ the bottom line, Badsanta. Men (in general) don't want romantic relationships/marriages WITHOUT sex. They make it a priority, if not, THE priority. 

Given that you are driven to have sex with your wife, and that a good majority of men will dump their wives for NOT having sex, What else are women supposed to think?


----------



## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

What are you doing/saying that causes her to think you look at her like a sex object? 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Vega said:


> Do you really believe that society/church/parents and friends are where women get the idea that the only thing that men want is sex?
> 
> Women get that idea _from the men themselves_
> 
> ...


Yes it's like water - you don't think about it at all if you have plenty of it, but if you have none for a while you can't think of anything else. It's a key part of any marriage for me at least. By no means the only part - and I don't think I've ever done anything for my wife and expected sex in return. Ever.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

badsanta said:


> My wife needs me to give her words of affirmation which are met directly with her low self esteem and disbelief, acts of service which are met with her getting upset that I am just trying to get more sex, and gifts which are met with her getting upset that I am just trying to get more sex.
> Badsanta


Which is precisely why I only say "I love you" AFTER sex or if told first.

Positive reinforcement :grin2:


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Good Guy said:


> Yes it's like water - you don't think about it at all if you have plenty of it, but if you have none for a while you can't think of anything else. It's a key part of any marriage for me at least. By no means the only part - and *I don't think I've ever done anything for my wife and expected sex in return. Ever*.


When you _married_ her, you expected sex...

...didn't you...?


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

I can't agree with you that what you describe @badsanta is in any way a double standard between husbands and wives. I'm going through similar and I'm the wife. 

It's not a husband - wife issue....it's a HD-LD issue .

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


----------



## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Vega said:


> Do you really believe that society/church/parents and friends are where women get the idea that the only thing that men want is sex?
> 
> Women get that idea _from the men themselves_
> 
> ...


I'm a little confused. Is your argument that sex shouldn't necessarily be part of marriage or a romantic relationship? Is it strange that a man who loves his wife in many different facets should want sex to be one of those facets?


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Vega said:


> Do you really believe that society/church/parents and friends are where women get the idea that the only thing that men want is sex?
> 
> *Women get that idea from the men themselves *
> 
> ...


A few counter points here (c'mon @Vega, you know I can;t let you off the hook that easy  )

- Per the 1st bolded, how about instead of going with some pre conceived ideas you have about men, you instead focus solely on the man that you are with? Using @badsanta as an example, maybe his W has this pre conceived idea from other men she has dealt with in her life and what is frequently portrayed in the media. However, she should instead be focused on her H, his actions, how he treats her. That should be the only basis that matters

- Per the 2nd bolded, so you are saying women are happy to have marriages/romantic relationships that do not involve sex in some manner 

- Per the 3rd bolded, give the amount of men posting here who are stuck in sexless marriages, it is a bit of a stretch (and I think shows your bias) to imply that a good majority of men would dump their wives for NOT having sex. You seem t o have a very specific view of men that you like to apply to a large amount of the group (just look at your post, you make statements like "in general" and "good majority" when referring to men). 

Also, I feel like you demonize those who value sex in a relationship. If one person prioritizes sex in a relationship and the other prioritizes another aspect of the relationship, neither is wrong. This goes back to discussions we have had before. If a man says he needs to have sex to feel the emotional connection / closeness to his W, and the W says she needs the emotional connection / closeness in order to want to have sex with her H, who is right, who is right? Your take based on your posts is that W is right, the whole emotional connection via sex that men talk about is just a bunch of hooey (sp?). I say both are right, it is more important they understand each others needs, and make every effort to work together so both needs are met.

And yes, sometimes men want sex just for the sake of having sex. Sometimes women want sex just for the sake of feeling sex. It happens.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Vega said:


> When you _married_ her, you expected sex...
> 
> ...didn't you...?


Most people (Men and Women) in a relationship expect sex to be part of it ...


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Why don't you ladies go ahead and tell the guys the reason you say, "all you care about is sex". Don't make me have to do it. :wink2:


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

VladDracul said:


> Why don't you ladies go ahead and tell the guys the reason you say, "all you care about is sex". Don't make me have to do it. :wink2:


The more a husband projects a desire to have sex with his wife, the more his wife will not want to have sex with him. (regardless of how he really feels)

The more a husband projects a lack of desire to have sex with his wife, the more his wife will want to have sex with him. (regardless of how he really feels)

This is sexual rule #1 in my marriage.

I JUST LOVE WOMEN !!!


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

UMP said:


> The more a husband projects his desire to have sex with his wife, the more his wife will not want to have sex with him.
> 
> The more a husband projects his lack of desire to have sex with his wife, the more his wife will want to have sex with him.
> 
> ...


Lol, I see you have a running theme with your posts today :grin2:


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

GTdad said:


> I'm a little confused. Is your argument that sex shouldn't necessarily be part of marriage or a romantic relationship ?


Nope. Not saying that it should or shouldn't be part of marriage or a romantic relationship. But as long as you don't want a relationship/marriage without it, then you'll have to expect that it can viewed as the PRIMARY DRIVER of the relationship for _you_. 

If a man's wife believes that he only wants her for sex, one way he can *prove* that he doesn't is to _stop having sex with her_. Still be affectionate. Still be playful. Still hold hands. Still talk and laugh together, do chores together. Still buy her flowers for no reason. 

But do it _without_ sex being on the table as an "every-other-day thing". 

Try doing these things for a year. Can't do it for that long? How about 6 months? 

Go on. I _dare_ you...! >


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Most people (Men and Women) in a relationship expect sex to be part of it ...


Yeah? How much? How often? 

See, if he only wanted sex once every month or so, she probably wouldn't be thinking that he ONLY wants her for sex.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Lol, I see you have a running theme with your posts today :grin2:


I finally see the light!!

Anytime I really put myself out there and show my true feelings on most whatever, (especially sex) I get knocked down a notch.

Anytime I stay reserved about such and such and hide my true feelings, (especially sex) I get raised a notch.

It's not about whether the game is fair or not fair. (it's not)

It's about learning how to PLAY the game. 

When I first got married I thought games were all out the window.
In actual reality, when you get married, that is when the game STARTS.


----------



## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Why do these threads turn into "battle of the sexes" 
God Sake! 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@badsanta:

She is lashing out at you because she feels pressured.

Not right, not wrong, it just is.

If you feel your wife is not contributing to the relationship as much as she should, you should focus on doing less, not expecting more from her.

It is entirely possible you guys will never be sexually compatible.


----------



## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

Not true. I constantly accuse my wife of only wanting me for sex. She agrees.


----------



## Randy2 (Jul 19, 2016)

I'd call it a Different Standard more than a Double Standard. I do agree that the suspicion and presumption that men do non-sexual romantic acts or chores only to generate sexual activity --funny grammar there-- is a problem in a relationship. At the same time, yeah, I acknowledge my expectation of eventual reciprocation is usually more sexually charged than hers. I think it's healthier just to embrace the reality of sexual difference, try to celebrate it, rather than demonize it. It's a slow process starting with micro-steps, but it's working for me.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

...


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Vega said:


> When you _married_ her, you expected sex...
> 
> ...didn't you...?


Just as she expected to be loved in certain ways as well.
@badsanta has gone over and above, documenting this in his threads pretty thoroughly. In fact, he has done more than I would do to invest in his relationship.

So how about we cut him some slack before you erroneously assign your narrative to his situation.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

...


----------



## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> ...


 good one! 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Vega said:


> Yeah? How much? How often?
> 
> See, if he only wanted sex once every month or so, she probably wouldn't be thinking that he ONLY wants her for sex.


That is up to each couple, their drives, etc... No one here is giving a set timetable. How do you arrive at your "once every month" figure? If I only wanted to have sex with my W once a month she would think that there was something wrong, maybe I didn't find her as attractive, etc...


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I've read so many threads and also received so many earfuls from my own wife that she feels that I only care about sex and not her. I definitely love my wife for who she is and yes I am guilty of wanting to enjoy sex more often than she feels comfortable giving it to me. At the same time all the threads I read about men being accused of this also claim to love their wives as a person beyond belief. So what gives!


I have a challenge for you.
How about for 1 week you come home somber and pensive.
Do not talk or infer to sex AT ALL.
If she asks you to have sex, you reply "I'm just not feeling it, I really don't know what's wrong, let's wait."

Then the next week initiate and see the difference.
I bet you a double plain cheeseburger from McDonalds that she will be more into you. You MUST give an academy award performance. 

Deal?


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I think it's just that we don't look at each other as complementary any more. We can be, but we find that to be demeaning, controlling, or repressive. I have a feeling it really isn't, if done properly, and that is why there is so much conflict. 

I think in badsanta's case, his wife is struggling with a little of that and some self-esteem issues that seem to go hand in hand. It's an internal struggle which gets projected onto the spouse whose actions bring it about.


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Whether it's sex...or money...or bubble gum...cigarettes...or a ride...or a computer...it doesn't matter. 

If someone keeps wanting the same thing from you over and over and over again, you get the impression that it's *ALL* they want. If you took "it" away from them, they would end the relationship. Even if you took it away from them _temporarily_, they would _still_ end the relationship. 

If your wife wanted money from you as often as you want sex from her, you just might get the impression that she ONLY wants you for your wallet. There are PLENTY of men who think this way about women. So how does a woman convince him that she doesn't just want him for his money?

By not asking him for money.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Early on, my wife only wanted sex when she was horny, which happened once a month. If I initiated, she accused me of just wanting sex, of only wanting her for her body. 

At a certain point, I finally understood why, after sex, she used to say that she "scratched the itch".

Sex was purely physical to her. She compared it to scratching an itch because it was nothing more than that to her.

She thought that was how I saw sex too. 

Changing that mindset took some serious work on both our parts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Vega said:


> Whether it's sex...or money...or bubble gum...cigarettes...or a ride...or a computer...it doesn't matter.
> 
> If someone keeps wanting the same thing from you over and over and over again, you get the impression that it's *ALL* they want. If you took "it" away from them, they would end the relationship. Even if you took it away from them _temporarily_, they would _still_ end the relationship.
> 
> ...


This is all true...from your perspective. There is no complementary attitude in this. There is no question of how often or how long. It's what you have determined. 

There isn't anything wrong with that until you project it onto others. Everyone is different. We don't all think the same. We don't all have the same time limits and internal clock. We don't all feel the same after the same things are done. That's where it misses the mark.


Another way to show him you aren't in it for the money is to be responsible with it. 

It's pretty different than sex. Desire comes from hormones and we all have differing amounts of the same ones that cause the feelings. It's partly biology and partly our past experiences. If they have been reasonably good, we will be more open to compromise. 

I read so much pain in your posts. I feel badly for you. You are an intelligent woman.


----------



## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

VladDracul said:


> Why don't you ladies go ahead and tell the guys the reason you say, "all you care about is sex". Don't make me have to do it. :wink2:




This is just my opinion, and I do not speak for all woman but in that time in my marriage when I would say that to my husband it really translated to meaning, "you are not fulfilling my emotional needs". When my husbands was not giving or doing for me the things I needed, everytime we had sex it just felt like he was using me, and that caused me to have no enjoyment in our sex life. 

Hopefully some other ladies will chime in too.


----------



## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

badsanta, do you think that she might just be sh1t testing you?


----------



## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

UMP said:


> I have a challenge for you.
> How about for 1 week you come home somber and pensive.
> Do not talk or infer to sex AT ALL.
> If she asks you to have sex, you reply "I'm just not feeling it, I really don't know what's wrong, let's wait."
> ...




I just ended this ^^^ last night. My wife and I last had sex last Friday. I've been working a lot on side jobs and things around the house since then. She initiated twice and I declined (what guy does that?). 

Last night I initiated and she was a little more than enthusiastic about it. Sometimes we have sex 4or 5x/week and other times only once. 

After years of rejection a week (or even 2) is no big deal but I noticed she sure gets her panties in a knot when I decline sex. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Daisy12 said:


> This is just my opinion, and I do not speak for all woman but in that time in my marriage when I would say that to my husband it really translated to meaning, "you are not fulfilling my emotional needs". When my husbands was not giving or doing for me the things I needed, everytime we had sex it just felt like he was using me, and that caused me to have no enjoyment in our sex life.
> 
> Hopefully some other ladies will chime in too.


Daisy,

How do you know he is doing those things for you? Is he ironing your delicates? Is he hand washing your bras down at the creek on a stone? Is he working on your car in some manner? Is he picking up the books you left on the table? 

Can you post more about what exactly he is doing that is specifically for you? 

Just so you know. I'm not trying to be a smart aleck.

ETA: Well, just a little I guess. I thought the creek and stone thing was funny. :smile2:


----------



## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> Daisy,
> 
> How do you know he is doing those things for you? Is he ironing your delicates? Is he hand washing your bras down at the creek on a stone? Is he working on your car in some manner? Is he picking up the books you left on the table?
> 
> ...


I think every woman has a different set of needs. For me it was,

1. I was always the first one to say I love you. I wanted him to tell me he loved me at random times in the day or at all. Once he went months without telling me he loved me cause I stopped saying it

2. He never planned any date night or anything that we could do alone. If we went out or went on a romantic weekend I had to plan it all.

3. He never made me feel like I was a priority in his life or that he thought about me during the day at all. He never put any thought into gift he would get me, they all were very impersonal and usually he gave me money and I bought my own. It felt like he knew nothing about me.

4. He never complemented me at all, well maybe great dinner. For the first time in our 18 year marriage he told me he thought I was a great mother once and that was only a month ago. He never said nice things but he would get more attentive when he wanted to have sex, but as soon as we did he went back to his old self.

This make my dh sound like a terrible guy, but he's not. His love language is acts of service so through out our marriage he would do 50% or more of the housework and he is great with the kids. He is just not a romantic, he is a logical thinker and he Is shy. In his defence I never told him what I wanted either. We had poor communication in our early marriage

Edited to add: this article lists almost 100 percent of what I was missing in my marriage 

https://missionhusband.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/husbands-ten-ways-to-show-your-wife-you-love-her/


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Vega said:


> If your wife wanted money from you as often as you want sex from her, you just might get the impression that she ONLY wants you for your wallet. There are PLENTY of men who think this way about women. So how does a woman convince him that she doesn't just want him for his money?
> 
> By not asking him for money.


Oh, I don't know - pay the bills herself? 

My wife is pretty demanding that way, when she hits the light switch she expects the electric bill to have been paid and the light come on. 

She expects the mortgage to be paid every damn month:surprise:

When the cell phone shut off once because the credit card expiration date had passed and the autopay failed it was an issue to be solved. 

It is not the ONLY thing she expects of me, there are others, but it is a fairly major responsibility I've carried for 20 years. I pay bills far more often than we have sex 0. Oh yeah, she pretty much never asks for money. Just expects the roof to remain ours and the utilities to keep humming...


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

badsanta said:


> I've read so many threads and also received so many earfuls from my own wife that she feels that I only care about sex and not her. I definitely love my wife for who she is and yes I am guilty of wanting to enjoy sex more often than she feels comfortable giving it to me. At the same time all the threads I read about men being accused of this also claim to love their wives as a person beyond belief. So what gives!
> 
> My wife was complaining to me the other day that once again that I just wanted her for sex. I turned the tables on her and complained that she can only see me as a penis in the house that just needs sex and not for the husband that truly loves her. I told her that viewing me solely as an object that only needs sex to be happy disgusted me and that if she has not gotten the message by now that I love her as a person it is because SHE is the one guilty of seeing me as just a sex object.
> 
> ...


I know the problem...oh, yeah!

You let her read your threads on TAM.

She has enough erotic threads to sew up your Funeral Suit....*with the below stitches*:

1. Straight Stitch...straight to sex
2. Overcast Stitch...even during crimson cloudy "periods"
3. Zigzag Stitch.....you cannot perform this. Straight is Great.
4. Blanket Stitch....sex under the blankets...only in January.
5. Buttonhole Stitch.....you nasty man.
6. Running Stitch.....in your youth....no, in your dreams


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Oh, I don't know - pay the bills herself?
> 
> My wife is pretty demanding that way, when she hits the light switch she expects the electric bill to have been paid and the light come on.
> 
> ...


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Daisy12 said:


> I think every woman has a different set of needs. For me it was,
> 
> 1. I was always the first one to say I love you. I wanted him to tell me he loved me at random times in the day or at all. Once he went months without telling me he loved me cause I stopped saying it
> 
> ...


Thanks Daisy. As you can tell by my post, I had the wrong idea of what you needed. That's why I asked. Most of the posts I've been reading have been about doing things like chores and I just disagreed with that. Here I see I am correct, though I may be wrong with some other woman. 

Communication before the marriage is very important. Maybe the issue is we have sex and that is what we are consumed with rather than getting to know these more important issues? Just thinking aloud there. 

When I felt love, I told my 2nd I loved her. I doubt I said it every day, but I really do think I did. It is likely it was a little less than that, since none of us is perfect. So, when we feel love, we share it. Unless we are so introverted we just can't say it. Then, we have to show it in other ways, but that won't help if the woman doesn't know those things as loving and complimentary. 

Thanks for answering.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Badsanta, blondilocks posted recently that you had said you either have or used to have a compulsion towards porn. Is that correct? And that your wife is very religious and has felt betrayed by your porn use? 

Has any of that ever been resolved in a satisfying way for both of you?

I can't remember if you answered Blondi or not. But her points might be worth reflecting on, no?


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Vega said:


> If a man's wife believes that he only wants her for sex, one way he can *prove* that he doesn't is to _stop having sex with her_. Still be affectionate. Still be playful. Still hold hands. Still talk and laugh together, do chores together. Still buy her flowers for no reason.
> 
> But do it _without_ sex being on the table as an "every-other-day thing".
> 
> ...


I did it for 15 months after we conceived our daughter. Went on vacation 6 months after she was born. Had sex once. Asked for it a second time on our anniversary. Got turned down. Demanded to begin MC to address sexless marriage. Was told all I care about is sex.

Did it for 9 months when I switched jobs and we moved. Figured the disruption to her life entitled her to a break from my demands. After 9 months we started going to a sex therapist. H2 did none of the homework. No hugs. No massages. Nothing. Still heard "all you care about is sex".

Currently have not had sex in I don't know how long. At least 15 months. Maybe 18 or more. Tended to her during life threatening illness, surgery and recovery. Entirely possible that if I asked for sex twice during the same week or month I might hear "all you care about it sex".

The phrase "all you care about is sex" can easily be translated into "how dare you desire sex more often than I do, and expect me to consent to that?" Or maybe "how dare you make me feel guilty for not wanting to have sex as often as you?" Or maybe "haven't you figured out that I only want to have sex with you when I want to have sex with you? Stop asking in between!"


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

badsanta said:


> My wife was complaining to me the other day that once again that I just wanted her for sex. I turned the tables on her and complained that she can only see me as a penis in the house that just needs sex and not for the husband that truly loves her. I told her that viewing me solely as an object that only needs sex to be happy disgusted me and that if she has not gotten the message by now that I love her as a person it is because SHE is the one guilty of seeing me as just a sex object.


Are you the main provider in your household? That is, do you make most of the money?

(I'm asking this because the correct response to that claim that you just want her for sex depends on that information).


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

thenub said:


> I just ended this ^^^ last night. My wife and I last had sex last Friday. I've been working a lot on side jobs and things around the house since then. She initiated twice and I declined (what guy does that?).
> 
> Last night I initiated and she was a little more than enthusiastic about it. Sometimes we have sex 4or 5x/week and other times only once.
> 
> ...


Most women have no experience in being turned down for sex, so they tend to react to it worse than men, who generally have a lot of experience in that field. :frown2:


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Here's something I don't quite understand. I'm dating a guy now and we're having sex, and it's a mutually ''agreed'' upon thing. He's not begging me, nor am I begging him for it. It's something that happens quite naturally, and we love pleasing each other. Come to think of it, we don't put a lot of forethought into it, it just ...happens. It's fun. It's amazing. It's beautiful. All of those things in one.

I want to please him, and he wants to please me, but I've read threads on here where the married couple started off like my bf and me, and no one is ''asking'' for it, it just happens often. What happens after marriage, where it seems that the husband (mainly) has to start begging his wife for sex? I don't want this to happen if I marry this guy. (or any guy) 

How do relationships go from frequent sex during the dating phase, to wives or husbands begging the other for sex, once they're married for a few years?  I've read a few threads here too where the wives are the ones initiating, and the husbands don't want to have sex. Just wondering why this seems so common after people get married, the great sex life the couple had when dating just seems to vanish?


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Any number of things: resentment, illness, physiological changes, resentment, issues with intimacy due to CSA, resentment, the list goes on...

However, resentment is repeated for emphasis.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

tech-novelist said:


> Most women have no experience in being turned down for sex, so they tend to react to it worse than men, who generally have a lot of experience in that field. :frown2:


If you turn her down, it must be you. You could be gay, bisexual, asexual, or abusive. I mean, what healthy heterosexual male would turn down a woman for sex? 

You will never be forgiven for that. :laugh:

Just kidding ladies. I know you are smarter than that. 

Though, I have experienced first hand, the anger and resentment from women I've rejected. I sort of felt like it wasn't a choice when she made her moves, after she got angry. It could be me or it could be her. It doesn't have anything to do with her value as a woman, just my feelings about sex with her at that time. I think most women would understand that.


----------



## giddiot (Jun 28, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> Here's something I don't quite understand. I'm dating a guy now and we're having sex, and it's a mutually ''agreed'' upon thing. He's not begging me, nor am I begging him for it. It's something that happens quite naturally, and we love pleasing each other. Come to think of it, we don't put a lot of forethought into it, it just ...happens. It's fun. It's amazing. It's beautiful. All of those things in one.
> 
> I want to please him, and he wants to please me, but I've read threads on here where the married couple started off like my bf and me, and no one is ''asking'' for it, it just happens often. What happens after marriage, where it seems that the husband (mainly) has to start begging his wife for sex? I don't want this to happen if I marry this guy. (or any guy)
> 
> How do relationships go from frequent sex during the dating phase, to wives or husbands begging the other for sex, once they're married for a few years?  I've read a few threads here too where the wives are the ones initiating, and the husbands don't want to have sex. Just wondering why this seems so common after people get married, the great sex life the couple had when dating just seems to vanish?



I think a lot of us would like to know the answer to that question. In our case I think its the strain of raising children and devoting so much time to them, it certainly slowed down. After the kids were gone I thought great its just us and it will come back like it was. Well then there were grandchildren right away, my son had an accident so to speak and he was abused by the mother that abandoned my son and we spent years getting my grandson away from that. Now we have a new granddaughter and my wife babysits 70 miles away, I don't even see her much. Then there was the hysterectomy. Who knows it seems when its gone its gone. I used to ask for it all the time, now I gave up and it sucks. And I have prayed about it for years.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Randy2 said:


> I'd call it a Different Standard more than a Double Standard. I do agree that the suspicion and presumption that men do non-sexual romantic acts or chores only to generate sexual activity --funny grammar there-- is a problem in a relationship. At the same time, yeah, I acknowledge my expectation of eventual reciprocation is usually more sexually charged than hers. I think it's healthier just to embrace the reality of sexual difference, try to celebrate it, rather than demonize it. It's a slow process starting with micro-steps, but it's working for me.


Thanks @Randy2 that is actually a great response. But my wife often claims my actions are sexually charged even when they are not. Sometimes I might get irritable over something I read in the news, and my wife will see that out of context and just assume I am irritable because I need sex and tell me that to my face. While I could muster up a joke and defuse that one by claiming that I thought I was upset by news of a local crime in the news, now that I think about it YES I am upset at the crime that we have not had sex recently! ..to be honest it wears on me, but I can handle it. It is getting better, but sometimes her comments are completely unwarranted. 





UMP said:


> I have a challenge for you.
> How about for 1 week you come home somber and pensive.
> Do not talk or infer to sex AT ALL.
> *If she asks you to have sex*, you reply "I'm just not feeling it, I really don't know what's wrong, let's wait."
> ...


 @UMP You know what? I think I am going to condition her to moments that when she accuses me of just wanting sex, that I am going to react as if SHE is trying to initiate sex and then I'll tell her, "I'm not really feeling it right now, could we wait and perhaps later?" which would be honestly how I feel. I'll say that in a playful way of course, but actually let her know I am being honest!





Daisy12 said:


> This is just my opinion, and I do not speak for all woman but in that time in my marriage when I would say that to my husband it really translated to meaning, "you are not fulfilling my emotional needs". When my husbands was not giving or doing for me the things I needed, everytime we had sex it just felt like he was using me, and that caused me to have no enjoyment in our sex life.
> 
> Hopefully some other ladies will chime in too.


 @Daisy12 thanks for the honest reply! I'm talking more about being a nice husband and fulfilling my wife's needs, but only to have her accusing me of just being nice for sex. It is understandable if your husband was not giving you the time of day that you would feel used, but imagine him going over and above, being extremely patient with you, getting you flowers just because he loves to see you smile, and then you accuse him of ONLY doing those things for you because he wants sex. That is what I am getting at! 





jld said:


> Badsanta, blondilocks posted recently that you had said you either have or used to have a compulsion towards porn. Is that correct? And that your wife is very religious and has felt betrayed by your porn use?
> 
> Has any of that ever been resolved in a satisfying way for both of you?
> 
> I can't remember if you answered Blondi or not. But her points might be worth reflecting on, no?


 @jld this is a good point. While these issues have been resolved, I still get a bad rep from my wife from my past. A long time ago when I would ask for sex and she would refuse, I would tell her then to not get upset if she later caught me watching porn. When we had those problems and I had a compulsion for porn, I would always go to her first because I honestly wanted to be with my wife, but the subsequent rejections would leave me unable to sleep and with a compulsion to distract myself from my misery. Now a days I just read or watch TV, but she still accuses me of watching porn, even when I am not. 

I purposely do NOT hide anything anymore and if anything I try to desensitize her to the fact that she is missing half the plot to Game of Thrones by fast forwarding through every single sex scene. Our teenage daughter watches it with her and even she complains that she can not figure out the plot after having to fast forward through all the sex. 

My wife feels that if an actress is made to be nude on television that it is degrading and almost on par with prostitution. Meanwhile she is the one addicted to watching Game of Thrones as if fast forwarding through all the nudity somehow makes it OK. I should tell her that by continuing to even watch stuff like that, and that her paying a subscription to watch that stuff is the equivalent of her paying for prostitution just to be a sarcastic ass. 

What is funny is that my father in law will complain to no end about the exact same thing with her mom. He says that if he watches anything on television and there is nudity that he will never hear the end of it.

OMG as I am writing this, I am starting to see where it all comes from!

Thanks @jld 

Badsanta


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

giddiot said:


> I think a lot of us would like to know the answer to that question. In our case I think its the strain of raising children and devoting so much time to them, it certainly slowed down. After the kids were gone I thought great its just us and it will come back like it was. Well then there were grandchildren right away, my son had an accident so to speak and he was abused by the mother that abandoned my son and we spent years getting my grandson away from that. Now we have a new granddaughter and my wife babysits 70 miles away, I don't even see her much. Then there was the hysterectomy. Who knows it seems when its gone its gone. I used to ask for it all the time, now I gave up and it sucks. And I have prayed about it for years.


This makes me want to cry. ((hugs)) I think what you say makes sense though, dating people, and I don't have kids and have never been married, it's always been a free spirited thing. There's no responsibilities or bills or kids together, it's just the two of you doing whatever. Whenever. So, maybe adding the stresses of life into the situation, that's what causes sex to not be a priority? But, it's interesting how it always remains a priority for one of the spouses.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

tech-novelist said:


> Are you the main provider in your household? That is, do you make most of the money?
> 
> (I'm asking this because the correct response to that claim that you just want her for sex depends on that information).


We both have careers and each earn enough to be independent. We have even discussed that this is what we would want for our own children because we are together because we want to be and not because we have to be.

I guess this gives credence to her joke, "well I'm still here aren't I?" for me to always believe that she loves me!

Badsanta


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

dude--

why are you even responding to accusations like this?

the only proper response is something along the lines of "if you say so."


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> Here's something I don't quite understand. I'm dating a guy now and we're having sex, and it's a mutually ''agreed'' upon thing. He's not begging me, nor am I begging him for it. It's something that happens quite naturally, and we love pleasing each other. Come to think of it, we don't put a lot of forethought into it, it just ...happens. It's fun. It's amazing. It's beautiful. All of those things in one.
> 
> I want to please him, and he wants to please me, but I've read threads on here where the married couple started off like my bf and me, and no one is ''asking'' for it, it just happens often. What happens after marriage, where it seems that the husband (mainly) has to start begging his wife for sex? I don't want this to happen if I marry this guy. (or any guy)
> 
> How do relationships go from frequent sex during the dating phase, to wives or husbands begging the other for sex, once they're married for a few years?  I've read a few threads here too where the wives are the ones initiating, and the husbands don't want to have sex. Just wondering why this seems so common after people get married, the great sex life the couple had when dating just seems to vanish?


 @*Deidre* imagine hypothetically you gain 50 pounds and become disgusted with your own body, meanwhile your husband has no change in his sexual desire for you. You convince yourself he is not even attracted to you anymore, but instead he is now using you because you are his wife and his only source for sex. 

I'm not saying that is 100% of the problem in my marriage, but body issues and shame do contribute.

Badsanta


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> Here's something I don't quite understand. I'm dating a guy now and we're having sex, and it's a mutually ''agreed'' upon thing. He's not begging me, nor am I begging him for it. It's something that happens quite naturally, and we love pleasing each other. Come to think of it, we don't put a lot of forethought into it, it just ...happens. It's fun. It's amazing. It's beautiful. All of those things in one.
> 
> I want to please him, and he wants to please me, but I've read threads on here where the married couple started off like my bf and me, and no one is ''asking'' for it, it just happens often. What happens after marriage, where it seems that the husband (mainly) has to start begging his wife for sex? I don't want this to happen if I marry this guy. (or any guy)
> 
> How do relationships go from frequent sex during the dating phase, to wives or husbands begging the other for sex, once they're married for a few years?  I've read a few threads here too where the wives are the ones initiating, and the husbands don't want to have sex. Just wondering why this seems so common after people get married, the great sex life the couple had when dating just seems to vanish?


people will have a lot of explanations for this, but short of some major physical ailment (e.g., amputation), it all boils down to one of them losing attraction for the other

sometimes loss of attraction has an easily identifiable cause (e.g., husband becomes a fat slob), sometimes there is no easily identifiable cause.

you should consider that people were probably not intended to mate with one person only for life.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

badsanta said:


> @*Deidre* imagine hypothetically you gain 50 pounds and become disgusted with your own body, meanwhile your husband has no change in his sexual desire for you. You convince yourself he is not even attracted to you anymore, but instead he is now using you because you are his wife and his only source for sex.
> 
> I'm not saying that is 100% of the problem in my marriage, but body issues and shame do contribute.
> 
> Badsanta


Spot on. I remember there was one time I was being playful with my W (can't remember exactly when but at some point after we had our 1st or 2nd kid), she wasn't feeling too great about herself and made a comment to the affect that I would have sex with anyone (well, not anyone, but basically I would have sex just for the sake of having sex). So where all I saw was a beautiful mother/wife, she had projected her view of herself at that time into my actions.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> Here's something I don't quite understand. I'm dating a guy now and we're having sex, and it's a mutually ''agreed'' upon thing. He's not begging me, nor am I begging him for it. It's something that happens quite naturally, and we love pleasing each other. Come to think of it, we don't put a lot of forethought into it, it just ...happens. It's fun. It's amazing. It's beautiful. All of those things in one.
> 
> I want to please him, and he wants to please me, but I've read threads on here where the married couple started off like my bf and me, and no one is ''asking'' for it, it just happens often. What happens after marriage, where it seems that the husband (mainly) has to start begging his wife for sex? I don't want this to happen if I marry this guy. (or any guy)
> 
> How do relationships go from frequent sex during the dating phase, to wives or husbands begging the other for sex, once they're married for a few years?  I've read a few threads here too where the wives are the ones initiating, and the husbands don't want to have sex. Just wondering why this seems so common after people get married, the great sex life the couple had when dating just seems to vanish?


Well, a couple of things. First, as usual, people posting their stories hear are typically due to some issue(s) within the relationship, so you may see a heavy skew towards negative stories. In my situation with my W, the biggest issue was kids (and moreso multiple kids), and our ability (or inability at the time) to balance out being a parent with being a husband/wife. We did get to the point where honestly I was tired of our relationship being like this, so I led the charge to talk it out with my W, and since then things are probably closer to who they were when we were dating (actually, this week's streak probably ties or beats any weekly streak we have had in the past  ). 

The big key for us, we have never used sex to manipulate the other person. We have never rejected each other (well, my W sort of did once, not really intentional at the time and the only times I have rejected my W is when I have a migraine which I literally cannot move lol). We have always had a desire to please the other person, it has never been about "You only get this if you do this first.".

Honestly, it still shocks me at some of the responses that seem to think that sex is some sort of fringe benefit you get in a relationship, entirely at the discretion of one person in the relationship


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> you should consider that people were probably not intended to mate with one person only for life.


Then how do we explain the multitudes of people who HAVE mated for life throughout history?


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Spot on. I remember there was one time I was being playful with my W (can't remember exactly when but at some point after we had our 1st or 2nd kid), she wasn't feeling too great about herself and made a comment to the affect that I would have sex with anyone (well, not anyone, but basically I would have sex just for the sake of having sex). So where all I saw was a beautiful mother/wife, she had projected her view of herself at that time into my actions.


My first wife didn't have those issues, so I didn't know much about them. My second did a little and never made it known to me how much it affected her. I guess part of it was that I didn't see this woman she saw in the mirror. I only saw a beautiful attractive woman I loved and wanted to screw...whoops, make love to. 

I asked her to wear some fancy panties I liked and knew would emphasize the back porch. Her's wasn't small, but man, I loved it. You know how it's popular now? It wasn't then, as much. 

She put them on and when I saw her, all I could do was smile. Man, her butt looked great!!! I wanted to...anyway...She took the smile as insulting. 

I couldn't freakin' believe it and didn't understand. I was boned and could not explain. That was a GIANT issue that never went away. It likely formed some of the foundation for her departure from seeking my attention.

You know what? I can't fix those things that are broken in her. Just as she can't make me happy. I have to do it myself. It has to come from within or through counseling that we seek as individuals. 

It's unfair to place the blame on the other spouse, but it is understandable.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> If you turn her down, it must be you. You could be gay, bisexual, asexual, or abusive. I mean, what healthy heterosexual male would turn down a woman for sex?
> 
> .


Funny you mention this. One thing we had to change, nights are very difficult for us with the kids and me being gone all day with work, so the latest solution is to use the mornings before the kids get up (which in itself is a challenge since I am an early morning person, typically up by 4am during the week and 5am ish on the weekend, and my W isn't really a morning person). It is very rare for my W to wake up in the morning and I am still in bed. This past Saturday I was exhausted so I decided to just stay in bed instead of getting up at 5am, figured I would just watch some TV while I gave my wife a head massage (she was still asleep), this could still qualify as time together. She popped out of bed straight out of a coma and said she would brb, that she wanted to go brush her teeth. I told her it was ok, I wasn't trying to start anything. She says to me "So you don't want to have sex?" and the look on her face was priceless (a combination of shock, disbelief, maybe a slight hint of disgust). Of course it ended very well, but I almost felt like for a moment my masculinity was questioned lol.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> If you turn her down, it must be you. You could be gay, bisexual, asexual, or abusive. I mean, what healthy heterosexual male would turn down a woman for sex?
> 
> You will never be forgiven for that. :laugh:
> 
> ...


Were you honest with your partners when they asked you why you rejected them?


----------



## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

@badsanta

Your wife forwards through sex scenes on Game Of Thrones? 
Is it religion? 

You guys are a sexual mismatch! 
It's difference of opinion of what is acceptable in terms of sexuality.
I think you guys need sex therapy. 

There is tons of hidden resentment on her part with you & the porn in the past. 
Don't think that issue is ever done & over with, it's clearly not. 

Can you not sit down, talk & come up with compromises? 
Remember communication is vital. 

She clearly doesn't want to have as much sex as you want. 
And is pushing you away constantly because of that. 
Come up with a number together & prepare to negotiate, understand it won't be a number you're happy with but at least it will end the needless squabbling. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> I can't agree with you that what you describe @badsanta is in any way a double standard between husbands and wives. I'm going through similar and I'm the wife.
> 
> It's not a husband - wife issue....it's a HD-LD issue .


I am going to be a bit hard headed and stand my ground even if you get upset at me! If your husband were to suddenly start treating you as a sex object, you would be happy! Not because you would necessarily want to be treated as a sex object, but because you would feel like, "OK, now I've got something I can work with!" Meanwhile if he is struggling with ED and unable to have sex, perhaps it is uncomfortable for you to see the husband that loves you apart from sex. 

Either that, or I just enjoy picking on you too much! :grin2:


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I am going to be a bit hard headed and stand my ground even if you get upset at me! If your husband were to suddenly start treating you as a sex object, you would be happy! Not because you would necessarily want to be treated as a sex object, but because you would feel like, "OK, now I've got something I can work with!" Meanwhile if he is struggling with ED and unable to have sex, perhaps it is uncomfortable for you to see the husband that loves you apart from sex.
> 
> Either that, or I just enjoy picking on you too much! :grin2:


My point is that we're both being lied to and that lies are not gender specific. 

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> Were you honest with your partners when they asked you why you rejected them?


This was a woman I worked with who walked over to my car as I sat in it before work started, listening to music or a talk show. She made it clear she was dating several men. I guess she thought that made her more attractive? I don't know. 

Added: After my second wife and I were separated for a year and divorced for another year. end added text

We talked quite a bit, since we were the only two who worked together. I didn't think much of it. I just wanted to talk. She came on stronger as I let slide, those little things that showed her interest in having sex with me. She was never interested in commitment. I wasn't interested in more than someone to talk with and a coworker I could get along with, rather than having a tough day with only the two of us there.

So, I'd say I didn't make it clear enough. I thought I did. I said I wasn't interested in dating. I wasn't interested in sex. It had nothing to do with her. I wasn't in a good enough mental state, yet. 

I don't know what the hell she thought? Maybe she thought sex would cure me of missing my 2nd wife? I think most people think that. It doesn't work for me, unless the woman is someone I find very compelling and end up falling in love with. 


I don't remember rejecting my first wife very often. I was in my twenties with the first one and horny all the time unless I was exhausted. That did happen, but not very often. She could see that was the issue and didn't take it personally. 


When I rejected my second wife? I don't even remember talking much about it with her, to tell the truth. If we talked once or thrice, I guess I could say that was the best I can remember. I told her it wasn't her. I told her it was me, but I didn't know what was wrong. I'd never experienced it before. I was clueless and didn't know who to talk with about it. I asked if she knew who to speak with. My general doctor or some specialist, I asked, because I had no clue. 

I have learned much since I've been at TAM. I was aghast at things I read here when I first joined. I had no clue what the definition of an open marriage actually was. I didn't understand how someone could want that. I mean, why get married if you want to play the field? Doesn't make sense to this day.

So, I believe I asked if she would go with me and talk about it with my doctor. I was embarrassed and afraid. I needed support. I don't remember why we never got into it, but I do remember asking. My second wife was pretty silent and, if I remember correctly, said, "just forget about it". Which was something she said when she was embarrassed or didn't want to address something. I protested, but not too strongly. I loved her and didn't want her to get too angry. I also respected her intelligence and knowledge. So, I figured she had a good reason. Love, respect, and then the final nail for my coffin, trust in her, became my undoing. 

She didn't talk much about her finances, or much of anything she felt. She was closed-mouthed about many things, but would ask me about things. I thought she was interested, but she may just have wanted to change the subject. I didn't pursue what we talked about very hard, but just asked another question to bring the subject back around. She sometimes would not say a word. Other times, she said she didn't want to talk about it. Sometimes, she would say my name with a kind of sound in her voice that made me believe she wasn't going to talk about it and to let it go. So, I did. 

Believe me. I tried every day to talk with her. In the mornings when we had coffee together, which was almost every day. One of the reasons I wanted her to help me make dinner was so that we had a chance to talk. When she told me she didn't want to make dinner with me, I asked if she would sit at the kitchen table and just keep me company. I tried to talk then, too. 

There were many red flags I missed, which I am exploring in counseling to understand why I refused to look at them. It will take time to figure it out. I guess I wanted her to love me as much as I did her. I really wanted to connect as I thought we did when we dated and first lived together. 

So, I'm not sure I have or can answer your questions, but I can and did try.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@2ntnuf

Thank you for your response. Your second marriage sounds a lot like my husband and me. We'll see if he ever gets the courage to be honest with me. 

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> My point is that we're both being lied to and that lies are not gender specific.
> 
> Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


Now THAT is very true! 

But it is important to see through a lie and know you are dealing with a lie! 

Sometimes I'll play into my wife's false fears of herself now being unattractive, but I'll deflect that fear towards something incredibly stupid! I'll tell her that I love her, but that if she wants me to keep chasing her around and pursuing her that she absolutely NEEDS to do something about the hole in her socks. 

> >


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

UMP said:


> I finally see the light!!
> 
> Anytime I really put myself out there and show my true feelings on most whatever, (especially sex) I get knocked down a notch.
> 
> ...




I've been saying this for a long time. When one chases, the other runs. So stop chasing and start running to make her chase. This is cat/dog 101.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> @2ntnuf
> 
> Thank you for your response. Your second marriage sounds a lot like my husband and me. We'll see if he ever gets the courage to be honest with me.
> 
> Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


*Your* welcome.(aah hell. I'm going to be in that thread about grammar mistakes again. :laugh: ) One thing my counselor told me was that she thinks differently than me. I can't believe it, since I thought I did my homework when dating her. I thought we were on the same page. 

Another is, I came from a really bad first marriage. I also wasn't shown much in the way of love when growing up. 

At least, that's what I think. I have to talk with my counselor about this soon. She asked me to think about some things. I have and am trying. 

If what I think my counselor is saying is true, and she doesn't usually come straight out and tell me, but let's me figure it out with some clues, I may not have realized my second wife NEVER loved me. It's freakin' scary to think that I was so clueless, but it's definitely a possibility. 

So much to explore. I'm old, too. 54 at the end of next month. I force myself to care and figure these things out, to keep the faith, and to go on trying.

What I am trying to say to you is, can it be possible that it's the same with your marriage? My second wife did things for me. I thought of them as loving, but she may not have even tried very hard. 

I don't know. It's all devastating to me. Please consider this for your own marriage. I'm not saying it's the same with you, but it's a hell of a jolt to the psyche to even consider it. It may well be a real reason so many stay in bad marriages or marry the wrong person.


----------



## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

Lila said:


> Were you honest with your partners when they asked you why you rejected them?




This makes me think if my wife was always honest about the 100's of headaches, upset stomachs, sore back or being tired. 
I think it was she was never satisfied screwing a fat lazy bear aka, "minute man."

Thankfully, working out, losing weight and being quite a bit more attentive of her needs and the needs the household required, brought a miraculous cure to all those ailments. 

At almost 52, (her words) I'm a way better Fvck now than I have ever been and she initiates as much as I do, maybe even more. 

She sees now (once I communicated it to her) that after about 4-5 days without sex, my mood is totally different. She knows that a good round in bed will get me back to normal. 

She has actually planned overnight stays away from the kids just to have hour after hour of sexual fun. I had always thought she was on the LD side, I guess it was me and the way I lived my life that made her that way. 

I do see my wife as a sexual object when I'm in need of release. She knows that and she sees me the same when she needs a release. 

I was (in my mind) always HD, while I thought my wife was LD. Now that our sex life has picked up substantially, we seem to be well matched. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> If what I think my counselor is saying is true, and she doesn't usually come straight out and tell me, but let's me figure it out with some clues, *I may not have realized my second wife NEVER loved me.* It's freakin' scary to think that I was so clueless, but it's definitely a possibility.


This is where I'm at right now. Trying to figure out if his love includes desire. 




2ntnuf said:


> So much to explore. I'm old, too. 54 at the end of next month. I force myself to care and figure these things out, to keep the faith, and to go on trying.
> 
> What I am trying to say to you is, can it be possible that it's the same with your marriage? My second wife did things for me. I thought of them as loving, but she may not have even tried very hard.
> 
> I don't know. It's all devastating to me. Please consider this for your own marriage. I'm not saying it's the same with you, but it's a hell of a jolt to the psyche to even consider it. It may well be a real reason so many stay in bad marriages or marry the wrong person.


Yep, devastating is, a good word to describe situations like this. Are they feeding you a bunch of b.s. to string you along or is this truly how they display love? Trying to get to the truth is anything but easy. 

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

badsanta said:


> @*Deidre* imagine hypothetically you gain 50 pounds and become disgusted with your own body, meanwhile your husband has no change in his sexual desire for you. You convince yourself he is not even attracted to you anymore, but instead he is now using you because you are his wife and his only source for sex.
> 
> I'm not saying that is 100% of the problem in my marriage, but body issues and shame do contribute.
> 
> Badsanta


I hadn't thought of that, really, that's a very valid point. 



Anon1111 said:


> people will have a lot of explanations for this, but short of some major physical ailment (e.g., amputation), it all boils down to one of them losing attraction for the other
> 
> sometimes loss of attraction has an easily identifiable cause (e.g., husband becomes a fat slob), sometimes there is no easily identifiable cause.
> 
> you should consider that people were probably not intended to mate with one person only for life.


 Monogamy is hard for many, and you make a good point, as well. I guess for some, attraction fades away, for whatever the reason. Maybe even boredom?



EllisRedding said:


> Spot on. I remember there was one time I was being playful with my W (can't remember exactly when but at some point after we had our 1st or 2nd kid), she wasn't feeling too great about herself and made a comment to the affect that I would have sex with anyone (well, not anyone, but basically I would have sex just for the sake of having sex). So where all I saw was a beautiful mother/wife, she had projected her view of herself at that time into my actions.


 That's so sad. 



EllisRedding said:


> Well, a couple of things. First, as usual, people posting their stories hear are typically due to some issue(s) within the relationship, so you may see a heavy skew towards negative stories. In my situation with my W, the biggest issue was kids (and moreso multiple kids), and our ability (or inability at the time) to balance out being a parent with being a husband/wife. We did get to the point where honestly I was tired of our relationship being like this, so I led the charge to talk it out with my W, and since then things are probably closer to who they were when we were dating (actually, this week's streak probably ties or beats any weekly streak we have had in the past  ).
> 
> The big key for us, we have never used sex to manipulate the other person. We have never rejected each other (well, my W sort of did once, not really intentional at the time and the only times I have rejected my W is when I have a migraine which I literally cannot move lol). We have always had a desire to please the other person, it has never been about "You only get this if you do this first.".
> 
> Honestly, it still shocks me at some of the responses that seem to think that sex is some sort of fringe benefit you get in a relationship, entirely at the discretion of one person in the relationship


I wish I could like this 1000 times, I've often thought about this too when reading some threads here, that sex is like a bartering system in some marriages. Doesn't seem like a good thing.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> Monogamy is hard for many, and you make a good point, as well. I guess for some, attraction fades away, for whatever the reason. Maybe even boredom?


I think for some what happens, during that first 12-18 month span where you are on a chemical high you might be more likely to overlook some of the incompatibilities. Once the new car smell wears off reality may start to set in and those incompatibilities start to show. Add in the people who think, with just enough time, they can make their SO change (I think we can all agree this is just a disaster waiting to happen!).


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

thenub said:


> I do see my wife as a sexual object when I'm in need of release. She knows that and she sees me the same when she needs a release.


Why would you see her as a sexual object at all?
Why is she responsible for giving you a release when you can do this for yourself?


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Vega said:


> Why would you see her as a sexual object at all?
> Why is she responsible for giving you a release when you can do this for yourself?


Someone with this outlook has no business being in a relationship.
@Vega, I going to be 100% honest, and I am going to also try to say this in as cordial a way as possible. 

I really struggle to read, let alone respond to your posts. They frequently feel confrontational and with a total lack of empathy. Someone (who has shown to be a pretty good husband and poster) is posting their pain here. Your responses show undue, misdirected resentment towards these men, the reason which they have NOTHING to do with.

I told myself I would never block anyone on these boards because it is often good to hear uncomfortable truths. But your vitriol is simply unwarranted and woefully misdirected. You are as close as I have ever come to blocking a poster. I say that not to threaten, belittle, or to sound pompous in any way. I want you to wrap your mind around how you project your pain onto people who do not deserve it; over, and over, and over again.

I hope one day you can forgive whomever brought out that anger.

Take care.


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Didn't you realize when you got married badsanta, that you are NOW a beast of burden. Your wife expects you to happily tread out the grain while "muzzled", so you cannot enjoy the fruits of your labor.

So just shut your yapper, and keep going to work, fixin the house, speaking all your wife's love languages AND expect NOTHING in return!


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

It all comes down to self confidence, honesty and attitude IMHO. It should be simple but us humans we like to complicate things with all our self imposed emotional baggage and self loathing, for some this is a comfortable place to be as they can then blame another for all their woes instead of taking on the responsibility they should own.

Balance is what should be sought, once it is found life can be amazing. A positive attitude to life and sex is paramount, without this then you will be going around in circles for all eternity.

I know my man loves me for who I am. I know he is sexually attracted to me, sure he could have sex with just anyone, we all could but he wants me as his intimate partner and that is inside and outside the bedroom. I feel the same about him, there are millions of gorgeous men in the world but he is the one that I want to share my life and bed with.

We happily objectify each other in a very playful way and I am all good with that. To be in this place there is a huge amount of love and trust. Honesty is also key, we are grown ups now, sex is a good thing so why does it have to be hidden with silly flowery, fake language. i like sex, I want your body, you and your mind are already entwined with mine so let's just enjoy sex together. 

Sex should be a positive thing tell your wife to stop overlaying it with negativity. The problem is that when people view sex combined with all sorts of other issues then the honesty is lost and it becomes warfare. I want to be wanted by my partner, if your wife does not feel like this then she needs to sort out what her issues are, she needs to take responsibility for her internal mind issues, grow up and own her sexuality. Not sure how someone gets to that point but it is immensely empowering to be the ruler of your own sexuality.

You can't fix your wifes issues, she has to do that. I would tell her to grow up. Stop pandering to her indulgences with her low self esteem.


----------



## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

Hi BadSanta.

I may have some catching up to do on this thread so bear with me, but a couple of questions for now:

1. On average, how often do you and your wife have sex? How often do you want to have sex? How often do you think is reasonable?

2. When you do have sex, how does it come about? Is it always you who initiates, mostly you, half half? Are you both already in bed, or us she in the middle of knitting socks and watching Bold and the Beautiful and you started kissing her neck? Just trying to get an idea of where her head might be at at the time you initiate...

3. When you are generally affectionate, eg you have your arm around her, you have a nice hug, rub her back maybe, does it tend to lead yo sex and if so do you feel (if you are honest with yourself) that you have an expectation that it should?

4. Do you view sex with your wife as transactional? Ie, "I do X Y and Z for her/our family/our home, therefore I should get sex at my desired frequency"?


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MrsAldi said:


> Can you not sit down, talk & come up with compromises?
> Remember communication is vital.
> 
> She clearly doesn't want to have as much sex as you want.
> And is pushing you away constantly because of that.


We did that a while back and in particular what she needs is for me NOT to initiate for three days after sex. This gives her a break from me perhaps being too playful, AND it gives her a fair chance at being the one that might want to initiate. 

I've also come to realize that I crave sex when I am under a great deal of stress (some folks are wired that way) while she needs to calm down first. I'm now a little more aware and patient with things in that regard to not take our differences as a personal attack. So imagine me in the past very stressed and wanting sex, only for her to reject me and add more stress to my equation. I can laugh now, before I understood this dynamic, not so much!

Badsanta


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> Here's something I don't quite understand. I'm dating a guy now and we're having sex, and it's a mutually ''agreed'' upon thing. He's not begging me, nor am I begging him for it. It's something that happens quite naturally, and we love pleasing each other. Come to think of it, we don't put a lot of forethought into it, it just ...happens. It's fun. It's amazing. It's beautiful. All of those things in one.
> 
> I want to please him, and he wants to please me, but I've read threads on here where the married couple started off like my bf and me, and no one is ''asking'' for it, it just happens often. What happens after marriage, where it seems that the husband (mainly) has to start begging his wife for sex? I don't want this to happen if I marry this guy. (or any guy)
> 
> How do relationships go from frequent sex during the dating phase, to wives or husbands begging the other for sex, once they're married for a few years?  I've read a few threads here too where the wives are the ones initiating, and the husbands don't want to have sex. Just wondering why this seems so common after people get married, the great sex life the couple had when dating just seems to vanish?


As far as I can tell, it doesn't seem that humans are wired for monogamy. Of course it is possible, and has many advantages, but it is unnatural, at least for most people.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

badsanta said:


> You know what? I think I am going to condition her to moments that when she accuses me of just wanting sex, that I am going to react as if SHE is trying to initiate sex and then I'll tell her, "I'm not really feeling it right now, could we wait and perhaps later?" which would be honestly how I feel. I'll say that in a playful way of course, but actually let her know I am being honest!


I look forward to hearing your reports on how this works. My understanding of RPT (red pill theory) suggests that it should produce interesting and maybe even valuable results!


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Hi Bad Santa...I thought I'd chime in.

I have a post in the ladies lounge explaining where I'm at with my life...long story short, I'm divorced and have a new boyfriend.

I just want to stress that when there is a large sexual mismatch such as with you and your wife, it just can't really hit the level you are hoping to achieve. I know you love your wife, but you probably should just accept that she will never be as sexual as you are, and stop lamenting any of this stuff anymore. (I know you've come so far already in trying to cope with a sex life you aren't 100% happy with, but you really still agonize so much over her lack of desire for you or sex).

You are highly sexual. I am as well. My current boyfriend and my ex-husband are also both highly sexual. To add to that, my bf and ex-h were both strongly sexually attracted to me, and I am strongly sexually attracted to both of them. This combination:

highly sexual individuals + strong mutual sexual attraction to each other

...is where what you are looking for is found. I know this now by personal experience, and not just in these 2 relationships, either. I know both sides of it. I have encountered many LD men over the years, so me being HD I know exactly what that mistmatch looks like and how and why it doesn't work. I haven't just magically gotten lucky and only paired up with HD men. Nope...there is more than one man in my sexual lifetime (I'm 49 now) who has been far, far less sexual than I am. Being in the dating pool again and talking to men my own age who claim upfront to be highly sexual and wanting a robust sex life...only to find out that these guys are actually clueless about what a robust sex life looks like, they can barely go more than once a week without getting overwhelmed. And if I say to them "but I thought you said you were highly sexual?" they reply with "I am, you've seen it yourself, you should know". Meanwhile, I'm scratching my head wondering what they think I've seen. In most cases, this guy and I do have the mutual sexual attraction...but if he isn't highly sexual like I am, it simply doesn't matter. The robust sex life we discussed will not be possible.

But when the combination above is present...it is almost guaranteed that the robust sex life is not only possible but will be exhilarating and wonderful.

If you add to that some more emotions..."really fond of each other" all the way up to "madly in love"...you've got a sex life made in heaven.

But....if the combination is missing on any side of the 4 parts of it....you don't see a good sex life happening...for either of them. 

There is a hope I have for you though....something that is maybe even better than an excellent partnered sex life. 

You already have worked a lot on ways of using self love to fill in the gap you feel in your sex life. You need to go a step further and totally allow your wife to just plain not desire you or sex, for her own reasons, without it affecting you in the least. If you can reach that place, you will be able to be *self-fulfilled*. This is a place I have never been, but I aspire to be, even though I have experienced a wonderful partnered sex life. But to be truly self-fulfilled, is almost a spiritual level of achievement. It means true and total intimacy with the self. 

That's going to have to be your goal if you will never consider changing your life around so you can experience another sex partner. But it is actually a very worthy goal, especially for you. You are already half way there, and twice as close to it than most people.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Funny you mention this. One thing we had to change, nights are very difficult for us with the kids and me being gone all day with work, so the latest solution is to use the mornings before the kids get up (which in itself is a challenge since I am an early morning person, typically up by 4am during the week and 5am ish on the weekend, and my W isn't really a morning person). It is very rare for my W to wake up in the morning and I am still in bed. This past Saturday I was exhausted so I decided to just stay in bed instead of getting up at 5am, figured I would just watch some TV while I gave my wife a head massage (she was still asleep), this could still qualify as time together. She popped out of bed straight out of a coma and said she would brb, that she wanted to go brush her teeth. I told her it was ok, I wasn't trying to start anything. She says to me "So you don't want to have sex?" and the look on her face was priceless (a combination of shock, disbelief, maybe a slight hint of disgust). Of course it ended very well, but I almost felt like for a moment my masculinity was questioned lol.


You're lucky that it ended well. She *was *doubting your masculinity, at least at a limbic level.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

sometimes, but not in every case. Unless 30 years isn't enough patience



jld said:


> Be patient. And persevere. That will eventually win her trust.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

OK, have now caught up...

Some more questions:

1. With the porn thing in the past and her continuing to accuse you, the thing that jumps out at me here is a lack of trust on her part. Aside from previous porn stuff, has there been anything else that has potentially damaged her trust? 

2. Going by some of your accounts of your arguments with her (and your plan to knock her back in that way next time she initiates), it seems a bit immature to me. Being a smart are and trying to win or have the best comeback line is not going to help anything. It will just liss her off. If you "win" you will have a short lasting sense of smig satisfaction but that will quickly wear off. It is not helping resolve things in the long term, it just makes it more impossible and unpleasant to try to discuss them at all. I would try to steer away fro this kind of dysfunction, it will not help your cause and it will do more damage in the long run.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

thenub said:


> This makes me think if my wife was always honest about the 100's of headaches, upset stomachs, sore back or being tired.
> I think it was she was never satisfied screwing a fat lazy bear aka, "minute man."
> 
> *Thankfully, working out, losing weight and being quite a bit more attentive of her needs and the needs the household required, brought a miraculous cure to all those ailments. *
> ...


This is a wonderful success story that could be used as an advertisement for MMSLP, since that's exactly what Athol Kay recommends.

I'm not saying that's where you got the idea, but it is right up his alley.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Hi Bad Santa...I thought I'd chime in.


I'm always a big fan of your posts. I make it a point to stay out of the ladies lounge, but I'll have to go catch up on your story!

My wife can and has been a very sexual person at times. Everyone goes through phases, but she once made it a point to tell me she admires my relentless pursuit of her, as do I. 

Perhaps I am guilty of taking my frustrations to TAM only when I need to vent and I do not share the good things which make up the majority of my marriage.


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Vega said:


> Then how do we explain the multitudes of people who HAVE mated for life throughout history?


Tell us about these multitudes. The AVERAGE number of sex partners is four for women and seven for men. That is the average so unless there are a few really horny men and women out there skewing the numbers, I would say this fact alone belies the idea that we are met to mate for life.


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Something that was touched upon but not really discussed is the fact that once married, our SO does become a sex object. Because for most of us our SO is the only option for sex in our lives. If you want sex you have no other place to turn for it. People who are dating are somewhat driven by competition. They may be one of a whole spectrum of choices as are their partners, so it makes more sense that sex while dating occurs more often than inside of a marriage. (at least I am hoping that is the case as relatively recently divorced man ;-)!


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ynot said:


> Tell us about these multitudes. The AVERAGE number of sex partners is four for women and seven for men. That is the average so unless there are a few really horny men and women out there skewing the numbers, I would say this fact alone belies the idea that we are met to mate for life.


Those numbers are the average number of people it took to find the most compatible partner to date. Women seem to be more emotionally intelligent, since their numbers are less when looking for the most compatible mate.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> Those numbers are the average number of people it took to find the most compatible partner to date. Women seem to be more emotionally intelligent, since their numbers are less when looking for the most compatible mate.


Unless they think they are connected to a lie detector, in which case men's numbers go down and women's numbers go up. See https://www.researchgate.net/public...erences_in_Sexual_but_Not_Non-sexual_Behavior.


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> Those numbers are the average number of people it took to find the most compatible partner to date. Women seem to be more emotionally intelligent, since their numbers are less when looking for the most compatible mate.


That may or may not be the case. But an average of four still does not equate to mating for life. Because you have mated with four people in your life on average.
Something else that was not discussed is that at no time (unless you truly believe Moses and company lived for hundreds of years) in history has men and women lived as long as they do today. The definition of "life" today is far longer than it was even 50 years ago. While the fairy tale of living happily ever after sounds nice, the reality is far different.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ynot said:


> That may or may not be the case. But an average of four still does not equate to mating for life. Because you have mated with four people in your life on average.
> Something else that was not discussed is that at no time (unless you truly believe Moses and company lived for hundreds of years) in history has men and women lived as long as they do today. The definition of "life" today is far longer than it was even 50 years ago. While the fairy tale of living happily ever after sounds nice, the reality is far different.


I suppose I don't understand the intent of the post. I think of mating for life as marrying one person and staying with them your whole life. I think you think of it as having sex with one person and only one in a whole life. 

I understood it like my second sentence above. 

Let's see. 2016 - 50 = 1966. So, if you died in '66, the average age was what? Is that how you are figuring this? I'm not sure. It doesn't make sense to me. 

If the average life was 40 years or 74 years, I don't much see how that matters. It's likely that those folks went through all the same physical and mental changes, just sooner than the older folks. It's also possible the older they are, the more knowledge they gained. Wouldn't it then support the idea of mating for life, since life is extended by a wife complaining to her husband to remember to take his meds and keep his doctor appointments....wait, I mean it's extended by a husband and wife being happy together and helping each other. 

I couldn't help it. I know. I'm bad.


----------



## happy2gether (Dec 6, 2015)

my wife views me as a sex object. every time I turn around she is groping me, kissing me, pinching/biting on me, or flat out demanding we have sex. Often she just stops me as I walk by and drops to her knees to perform oral on me. 

Would not change her view point for anything in the world!!!!!!!


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> I suppose I don't understand the intent of the post. I think of mating for life as marrying one person and staying with them your whole life. I think you think of it as having sex with one person and only one in a whole life.
> 
> I understood it like my second sentence above.
> 
> ...


Okay.....mating is not the same as marrying. Mating is what happens when you have sex. Therefore mating with four or seven people means that you have not mated with one person for your entire life. You have mated with four seven different people (in average)

And even if you imagine that mating is for life. When life lasted until your late 40'sin 1930 and now life lasts into your 70's now. That means life now means 70+ years, whereas before it meant 40+. See different meanings to the idea of life. 

Also, in case you missed it the fastest growing (in fact the only growing) segment of married people getting divorced are the over 50 crowd, which signifies to most rational people that perhaps, we are outliving love and that "mating for life" is not the rule, but the exception to the rule. Younger people are just choosing to bypass the legalities of marriage by living together. The data for unmarried couples actually shows they are even more likely to break up than married couples. Again one can assume that one or both of the broken up or divorced couple then goes onto mate with another. Further, undermining the assertion that we are meant to mate for life. It simply is not the pattern with mankind.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

tech-novelist said:


> As far as I can tell, it doesn't seem that humans are wired for monogamy. Of course it is possible, and has many advantages, but it is unnatural, at least for most people.


That is something I've read about, as well. Maybe having kids and such is what causes societies to want to bring order to relationships, and marriage is one such way to do that. Plus, religious reasons people may have, as well.


----------



## giddiot (Jun 28, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> This makes me want to cry. ((hugs)) I think what you say makes sense though, dating people, and I don't have kids and have never been married, it's always been a free spirited thing. There's no responsibilities or bills or kids together, it's just the two of you doing whatever. Whenever. So, maybe adding the stresses of life into the situation, that's what causes sex to not be a priority? But, it's interesting how it always remains a priority for one of the spouses.


Aww your young and still have a lot of life yet. 

It wasn't always bad. These days my wife has a lot of back trouble which translates into pain and has sensitivity to almost any medicine makes it difficult to treat. I will always love my wife and she does not want me to be lacking a sex life but when you hurt like she does there would be no pleasure in it and I can't have her hurt to satisfy me.

If I can give you one piece of advice, enjoy life now why you can. You never know what tomorrow brings so live for today and focus on the day at hand. You don't know God's plan is for you. Enjoy each other while your capable.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

tech-novelist said:


> You're lucky that it ended well. She *was *doubting your masculinity, at least at a limbic level.


Well, I was able to "rise" to the occasion, but just in case there is any doubt today I will focus on solely doing manly things around the house! Gonna start by wearing a toolbelt all day, maybe smack some motor oil on my hands and face :grin2:


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Ynot said:


> me (unless you truly believe Moses and company lived for hundreds of years) in history has men and women lived as long as they do today. The definition of "life" today is far longer than it was even 50 years ago. While the fairy tale of living happily ever after sounds nice, the reality is far different.


If you're ever working with longevity figures, check to see if they include infants and stillborn children. Many figures used in the 20th century included infants and newborns which _hugely_ distorts the figures. also if can (much harder) take into account those born in childbirth (always _young_ woman ie <30yrs). 

Remove those extremely young or baised group and suddenly the survival figures are much higher, which simply reflect better birthing and sanitary procedures.

In fact if you take into account the age and number of young people lost in warfare (compared to the size of the population) suddenly modern figures are a bit of a concern - especially considering the source of many modern deaths !


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Those numbers are the average number of people it took to find the most compatible partner to date. Women seem to be more emotionally intelligent, since their numbers are less when looking for the most compatible mate.


Definitely not more emotionally intelligent, but certainly a higher proportion can acquire a partner without making several competitive attempts. 
ie many women have more options to choose who they want (for sex) and being the pursued can easily say no, without damaging their chances. The same can't be said for most men. So once again, "the average" is about a few high scorers, and many very low scorers, vs a slightly higher average.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

happy2gether said:


> *my wife views me as a sex object*. every time I turn around she is groping me, kissing me, pinching/biting on me, or flat out demanding we have sex. Often she just stops me as I walk by and drops to her knees to perform oral on me.
> 
> Would not change her view point for anything in the world!!!!!!!


I think my first wife thought of me the same way. She kept saying, "Eff U". 

:grin2:


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Well, I was able to "rise" to the occasion, but just in case there is any doubt today I will focus on solely doing manly things around the house! Gonna start by wearing a toolbelt all day, maybe smack some motor oil on my hands and face :grin2:


Alternately, you can dig a hole in the yard and later fill it back in. 

:laugh:


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

spotthedeaddog said:


> If you're ever working with longevity figures, check to see if they include infants and stillborn children. Many figures used in the 20th century included infants and newborns which _hugely_ distorts the figures. also if can (much harder) take into account those born in childbirth (always _young_ woman ie <30yrs).
> 
> Remove those extremely young or baised group and suddenly the survival figures are much higher, which simply reflect better birthing and sanitary procedures.
> 
> In fact if you take into account the age and number of young people lost in warfare (compared to the size of the population) suddenly modern figures are a bit of a concern - especially considering the source of many modern deaths !


Not disputing any of this. my post was simply to point out that more and more people are outliving (often times much more healthy as well) the prior standards of life expectancy and that the growing numbers of "silver" divorces are an example of the fact that perhaps we are not meant to "mate for life". What any of us wanted as a 20 year old has changed dramatically by the time we are 50 or 60 (and for the most part healthy and still active). This aspect of life (along with the growing numbers of other age related maladies) is something that modern society has yet to accept and make accomodations for. 
And FTR, I totally reject the idea that people don't change. Everyone and anyone who has ever lived has changed over the course of a lifetime, even on the most fundamental levels.


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> That is something I've read about, as well. Maybe having kids and such is what causes societies to want to bring order to relationships, and marriage is one such way to do that. Plus, religious reasons people may have, as well.


That relates somewhat to my posts about life. Now for the first time in history the vast majority of couples (both parents) are outliving the time required to raise the children that they have produced. Often times they are now outliving even the time it takes their children to raise their own children. This is unprecedented in human history. The high rates of "silver" divorces is a direct result of this. Perhaps society will adjust to this fact, so that future couplings will take actual longevity into consideration and late life divorces will fall. Perhaps society had already started adjusting as we see younger people delaying marriage until later in life. Or perhaps society will simply begin rejecting the concept of marriage in its entirety, which again may be taking place as evidenced in the increase in the number of couples simply co-habitating rather than getting married. 

Beyond outliving the time required to raise children, our modern society has also rendered the need for two parents unneccssary. Simply put one parent is now able to garner enough resources on their own to adequately raise a child on their own, with little to no assistance from the other parent. Thus making the institution of marriage less relevant to modern life.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Vega said:


> Do you really believe that society/church/parents and friends are where women get the idea that the only thing that men want is sex?
> 
> Women get that idea _from the men themselves_
> 
> ...


I CAN NOT disagree with this post given the heightened rise in our casual sex society.. .. SEX IS "just sex" for many many many people LONG before they marry.. so what gives.. how does it suddenly change for them once they are married ?? This is something I am still trying to understand - from the other side ..

Now given that I just said this.. my personal experience has been the total opposite with my husband... even though I KNEW there were guys who'd happily bang me for a night, for a season, get tired of me.. and move along to another.... 

With my husband, all of our marriage.. also in dating.. I seriously have NEVER felt he just wanted sex.. he has always been very in tuned to my feelings, he needs MY desire, he needs MY happiness too, it has to be a mutually pleasurable experience or he'd put himself down.. 

To be very honest.. I'd love to be his SEX OBJECT [email protected] Dam* it.. USE ME [email protected]@ But maybe that's easy for me to say.. as I've never felt that...

I asked him a while back... "Why in the world didn't he come on to me more in the Past when he wanted more ...what was wrong with him...Go for it!! ... he answered me very clearly...*.he never wanted me to think it was "just about sex"... because it never was..* ... I was touched by his care in this area.. I assured him. I never felt that, I always felt loved & wrapped up in each other. 

So much of this I feel comes down to *our experiences with sex*, which can play a huge part in how we view the act..

I've always associated sex with Romance, being emotionally tied to one another.. as does my husband ...(I never wanted a man who could easily separate it -but make no mistake about it. MANY CAN --and it IS FELT... women who've had previous BF's who'd get what he wanted, then GET UP, go about his business... no sweet "after glow" lying in his arms.. too much of that going on...lacking much emotional response & care.. it's going to affect how she sees him, and what he is really after. ..whether one is married or dating... it doesn't matter...

Of course the physical part is HUGE for us too....it drives us wanting more ..feeling physical desire, that intensity -then sharing it.. it's kinda addictive. ! Who doesn't like being Horny !


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Vega said:


> Nope. Not saying that it should or shouldn't be part of marriage or a romantic relationship. But as long as you don't want a relationship/marriage without it, then you'll have to expect that it can viewed as the PRIMARY DRIVER of the relationship for _you_.
> 
> If a man's wife believes that he only wants her for sex, one way he can *prove* that he doesn't is to _stop having sex with her_. Still be affectionate. Still be playful. Still hold hands. Still talk and laugh together, do chores together. Still buy her flowers for no reason.
> 
> ...


On it, Not initiating ever again.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ynot said:


> Okay.....mating is not the same as marrying. Mating is what happens when you have sex. Therefore mating with four or seven people means that you have not mated with one person for your entire life. You have mated with four seven different people (in average)


I figured you were looking at it like that. I think the other member meant marry for mate. I tend to try to figure out what they mean because it confuses things if I don't. It doesn't always work, but I try.

Just knowing that, you can throw out the rest of the argument.


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> I figured you were looking at it like that. I think the other member meant marry for mate. I tend to try to figure out what they mean because it confuses things if I don't. It doesn't always work, but I try.
> 
> Just knowing that, you can throw out the rest of the argument.


Yep, but even if that (mating equals marriage) statistics prove that even that is not always for life (about 50% of the time for marriage and much higher for cohabitation)


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Of course the physical part is HUGE for us too....it drives us wanting more ..feeling physical desire, that intensity -then sharing it.. it's kinda addictive. ! Who doesn't like being Horny !


People who can't count on having sex.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ynot said:


> Yep, but even if that (mating equals marriage) statistics prove that even that is not always for life (about 50% of the time for marriage and much higher for cohabitation)


Where I work, there are many young folks. I've noticed they do not talk like they are in a committed relationship most of the time. When it's new, they do. 

They also have children and are constantly talking about them. 

Odd how they do that with no sense of a family unit. 

Most of them only stay together for about 30 months at most. They usually find someone else before getting rid of the last one. 

Child support is not pursued by many. They say they don't need it and they are given money. Well, they can do much better through the courts, but they say they aren't angry with their ex. 

Funny...:scratchhead:...I thought it was to help the custodial parent and child with expenses and care, not for revenge? I guess I was wrong?

Do you see the parallels with those who are divorcing? I do.

So, they may never be alone. They are always cohabitating, because there is no line where they were alone for long, if at all. 

It would skew the data if the proper questions were not asked. For example:

Do you cohabitate? Yes.

How long have you cohabitated? All my adult life, since 19. I'm 32.

They didn't ask how many different partners they had since they started cohabitating or how many different fathers/mothers their children have. 

That would be easy to do. Don't you think?


----------



## Randy2 (Jul 19, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> I hadn't thought of that, really, that's a very valid point.
> 
> Monogamy is hard for many, and you make a good point, as well. I guess for some, attraction fades away, for whatever the reason. Maybe even boredom?
> 
> ...


At the beginning of a relationship, the sex is often exciting, new, thrilling as we discover eachother's skills and preferences and bond. Too often I've stayed waaay too long with those beginning skills and preferences and continued to expect it to be exciting. And been disappointed. Hopefully, humans are getting better at exploring and expanbing their sexual boundaries.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

tech-novelist said:


> People who can't count on having sex.


Oh I get that.. when husband couldn't keep up.. it was a bit tormenting.. but still being WITH HIM -that emotion between us.. I craved that AS MUCH as a physical release.. I didn't want toys... it was worth the wait ...

For those where it is "Just Sex"- needing a release will do.. pleasing a partner may be too much work even.. most are still seeking partnered sex...wouldn't porn be good enough...yet this seems hollow in comparison...even for many of them.

What motivates people for wanting partnered sex, and why do some attach deep emotions to it.. where others have very little... 

Horny young men who are content with one Night stands, who want no strings..is it the EGO BOOST.. does this make them feel more like A MAN, getting experience ...or it MORE....I'm assuming it's More.. how can it be explained.. (with this kept in mind.. they still don't care or want a relationship).. its like this oldie by John Cougar Mellencamp... 

I need lover that won't drive me crazy....
Some girl who'll thrill me and then go away
(I need a lover that won't drive me crazy)
Some girl that knows the meaning of ah-
Hey hit the highway!


----------



## Legend (Jun 25, 2013)

My ex-wife pulled that same sh!t on me. We were married 9 years and had sex about 20 times. I read books on marriage, I tried to be understanding. We didn't have sex for the last 1 & 1/2 years. Even though I have a decent sex-drive, I didn't want to touch her at that point. I had been rejected too often and too long, so I left her and ended up discovering what a real marriage is like with a real woman.

I look back now and realize that her knee-jerk, oft repeated "you just want sex" was disingenuous at it's core. What she was really saying is that she is not marriage material and would like to blame shift her short-comings by imputing "bad" motives on me. The low-sex drive spouse almost always controls the frequency of sex. Wouldn't it be refreshing to have a spouse that was more selfless in that area of your marriage?

After my first marriage, my attitude toward myself and marriage changed. I have sex with my current wife often. We have 5 children. I make no excuses for desiring her sexually or in other ways. I don't put up with excuses or bullsh$t. What really helps is our level of honesty and transparency is very high and I try to keep our relationship on "simmer" at all times so it takes little to reach a boil. It also helps that I'm not married to someone who is selfish. 

Living in a sexless marriage is like living in a marriage with no communication. It doesn't make sense, it doesn't work, and it's not a real marriage. Men and women were created to be different and complimentary in marriage. I hold up my end of the marriage by making sure my wife knows she has it pretty damn good with me and is unlikely to go looking elsewhere to have her needs met.


----------



## Randy2 (Jul 19, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> To be very honest.. I'd love to be his SEX OBJECT [email protected] Dam* it.. USE ME [email protected]@


Ditto that. I'd love to be HER (my wife's) sex object.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

LD really isn't the issue. It's selfishness, lack of empathy, lack of loving kindness, and the lack of an understanding of how to express love to a spouse, a lack of an ability to find enjoyment even in things that aren't the most favorite things to do, when it is not some ailment, whether physical or mental.


I think for some, it's a lack in their spouses ability to provide some of these consistently.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Randy2 said:


> At the beginning of a relationship, the sex is often exciting, new, thrilling as we discover eachother's skills and preferences and bond. Too often I've stayed waaay too long with those beginning skills and preferences and continued to expect it to be exciting. And been disappointed. Hopefully, humans are getting better at exploring and expanbing their sexual boundaries.



You're probably right, @Randy2


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

The issue for me has always been, how do I tell her what I'd like to do without her thinking I'm a pervert, reporting me to some agency(just kidding about that, but it's how I feel), telling all her friends, some of her friends, or asking them how to do it or what it means or any darn questions she needs to ask me? 

That was an issue in my second marriage. I wanted more, but did not know how to express my desires. 

Then, I find out what she was doing, like many other BS and it's like, "damn, I could have asked for almost anything"! 

I guess that's what I need to learn. Don't feel embarrassed. Own what I like and don't think I am less of a man or some pervert or something, if someone mentions those things or insinuates them whether on purpose or by accident. 

Cause, I'm not a perv. I don't think. I...maybe I'm not? Okay, I am...for some and for others, not. :wink2:

Hey, it's all legal, so.... :moon: 

:circle: 

Time to rest a while.


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Vega said:


> Do you really believe that society/church/parents and friends are where women get the idea that the only thing that men want is sex?
> 
> Women get that idea _from the men themselves_
> 
> ...


I can't speak for all men, but here's where I got my particular opinions from:

- From an early age, the message that sex belongs inside a marriage and not outside was prevalent. No, I was not raised religious. That messages was strong, and still is.
- Hanging around folks throughout my life, conversations often turned to couplehood and behavior within it. Women might comment on someone they knew who was living with a guy, and the talk was rarely positive - "she's letting him have sex without being married, this will go badly". So, a strong message from many women that as a woman, she would rather NOT have sex unless married. I'm speaking of general social groups, not my personal girlfriends.
- The scorn gets far greater if someone's guy cheats on the girl, whether in marriage or not.

So, I "got it" - sex is not desired outside of marriage, if there's a choice. And, once married, or even "going together", the pressure for the guy to be monogamous gets 10 X stronger.

Now, I'm a logical person...if I were the one to say "you can't do this unless you agree to be with me foreever" and then "once you've agreed to be with me forever, you can do this, but ONLY with me"...I would assume that I had just made an unspoken, but very real social contract, that I would be a willing partner in whatever "this" is...whether sex, shopping, investing, or fishing.

Philosophy, religion and psychology have long held that there are four types of intimacy. Three of them are permissible outside the marriage, one is not. So, that one - sex - is most certainly risen to a higher priority than the others, simply because society et al, puts so many more rules on it than the other three.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

woof


----------



## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

Vega said:


> Do you really believe that society/church/parents and friends are where women get the idea that the only thing that men want is sex?
> 
> Women get that idea _from the men themselves_
> 
> ...


Not true. Just because that's the kind of men you find yourself around that doesn't mean it represents all men. I know men who have been in sexless marriages for more than a decade and haven't cheated or 'dumped' their wife. Even though in my opinion they should.

Reminds me of a social experiment I once saw where they put a womaniser and a 'good guy' in a club with some women. Most of the women were drawn to the womaniser. Some weren't (the sensible ones). And this womanising one was being really sexual, touching them in certain ways and all. Afterwards they spoke to the women and asked them what they wanted in a man and one of the things they said is that they wanted a respectful man! 










My point is many woman who complain about men need to question themselves about the kind of men they find themselves around and feel comfortable with.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> *The issue for me has always been, how do I tell her what I'd like to do without her thinking I'm a pervert, reporting me to some agency(just kidding about that, but it's how I feel), telling all her friends, some of her friends, or asking them how to do it or what it means or any darn questions she needs to ask me? *
> 
> That was an issue in my second marriage. I wanted more, but did not know how to express my desires.
> 
> ...


Read 'Passionate Marriage' by Dr. Schnarch. Speaks directly to your issue.

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Legend said:


> My ex-wife pulled that same sh!t on me. We were married 9 years and had sex about 20 times. I read books on marriage, I tried to be understanding. We didn't have sex for the last 1 & 1/2 years. Even though I have a decent sex-drive, I didn't want to touch her at that point. I had been rejected too often and too long, so I left her and ended up discovering what a real marriage is like with a real woman.
> 
> *I look back now and realize that her knee-jerk, oft repeated "you just want sex" was disingenuous at it's core. What she was really saying is that she is not marriage material and would like to blame shift her short-comings by imputing "bad" motives on me. * The low-sex drive spouse almost always controls the frequency of sex. Wouldn't it be refreshing to have a spouse that was more selfless in that area of your marriage?
> 
> ...


This is a great real life eg of what I was saying earlier. 

Good move getting out of your first marriage and finding a real partner.


----------



## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

badsanta said:


> We did that a while back and in particular what she needs is for me NOT to initiate for three days after sex. This gives her a break from me perhaps being too playful, AND it gives her a fair chance at being the one that might want to initiate.
> 
> I've also come to realize that I crave sex when I am under a great deal of stress (some folks are wired that way) while she needs to calm down first. I'm now a little more aware and patient with things in that regard to not take our differences as a personal attack. So imagine me in the past very stressed and wanting sex, only for her to reject me and add more stress to my equation. I can laugh now, before I understood this dynamic, not so much!
> 
> Badsanta


So you had an agreement and then you wanted more? 
You renegged on the contract! 
Good Luck negotiating on the next one! 
Seriously though, you're giving your wife mixed messages. 
It's no wonder she thinks you look at her like a sex object! 
Try giving her the space as you promised. 
But make sure you get the quality that was promised also.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I've read so many threads and also received so many earfuls from my own wife that she feels that I only care about sex and not her. I definitely love my wife for who she is and yes I am guilty of wanting to enjoy sex more often than she feels comfortable giving it to me. At the same time all the threads I read about men being accused of this also claim to love their wives as a person beyond belief. So what gives!
> 
> My wife was complaining to me the other day that once again that I just wanted her for sex. I turned the tables on her and complained that she can only see me as a penis in the house that just needs sex and not for the husband that truly loves her. I told her that viewing me solely as an object that only needs sex to be happy disgusted me and that if she has not gotten the message by now that I love her as a person it is because SHE is the one guilty of seeing me as just a sex object.
> 
> ...


You sound like a great guy who puts alot of effort into your marriage. Unfortunately, women sometimes over analyse things and this is often where the problems lie, the second guessing of husbands often lies in lack of self esteem of the wives.


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Daisy12 said:


> I think every woman has a different set of needs. For me it was,
> 
> 1. I was always the first one to say I love you. I wanted him to tell me he loved me at random times in the day or at all. Once he went months without telling me he loved me cause I stopped saying it
> 
> ...


To a lot of guys, he doesn't sound like a terrible guy at all, he is just who he is, not a very emotionally expressive person - but more reliable and dependable than other insincere types who do this kind of ego stroking all the time while cheating on her with other women. And I bet he was like this before he married too, so no sudden surprises.

Do you compliment him at all? My wife constantly fishes for compliments but I don't think she has ever once complimented me in 20 years.

In my case the whole planning thing is often because my wife gets very upset with surprises and has controlling issues - any surprise dates etc are very likely to backfire.

Also how do you know he was always looking for sex the times he was more attentive? Men assume love and sex go together - if you are relaxed and having fun, then sex is a logical next step. It's not "pressuring" for sex. If she turns him down in this situation she is telling him "I don't love you" in the loudest way possible. If he's prodding her back in the middle of the night with his **** that's another matter.


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

DustyDog said:


> I can't speak for all men, but here's where I got my particular opinions from:
> 
> - From an early age, the message that sex belongs inside a marriage and not outside was prevalent. No, I was not raised religious. That messages was strong, and still is.
> - Hanging around folks throughout my life, conversations often turned to couplehood and behavior within it. Women might comment on someone they knew who was living with a guy, and the talk was rarely positive - "she's letting him have sex without being married, this will go badly". So, a strong message from many women that as a woman, she would rather NOT have sex unless married. I'm speaking of general social groups, not my personal girlfriends.
> ...


I believed all this to be true. Now I know that women lie about all this kind of stuff all the time, including my own mother and daughter. They say what they are expected to say. I don't know how men can have any normal view of relationships when these lies are propogated. I don't blame them for this, there is a lot of societal pressure on them to say these things. A lot of women don't think like the above at all, but pretend they do.

I never had sex before I got married for this reason ( I did "fool around" but nothing like oral or whatever, very innocent), even though I had lots of opportunity. Now I regret this. Later, having women come on to me knowing I was married, one herself married, and she came on to me purely for sex, and hearing some stories female friends told me about how many guys they slept with when they were younger really shocked me. Also seeing how they are with their daughters - how sleeping around is normal now and even cheating on their boyfriend is encouraged by one mum as "they aren't that serious". They didn't play by the rules I was taught that women say they play by themselves. I was really sold a bill of goods. Then to hear that a man who sleeps with a lot of women is admired? He certainly was not admired publically where I come from. I have no problem with all this, except the cheating bit, but I was playing by different rules. I didn't want to hurt anyone by pressuring them into something I THOUGHT they didn't like or want (sex). Then to learn I was seen as some sort of loser for being like that.

Also I thought women put a higher value than men on truth and honesty - again my mother demanding the truth etc from us and my dad, and talking about liars in a very derogatory way (my mum is a scrupulously honest person). This led me to believe all women were like that, when nothing could be further from the truth. I was ill prepared for the world as it really is. I could have been saved so much pain if I had just been told from the start how there are people out there born bad, and never assume anyone is honest, especially those closest to you. That's the real world.

Also the whole women aren't interested in sex and men are only interested in sex. A big pile of crap.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

badsanta said:


> We did that a while back and in particular what she needs is for me NOT to initiate for three days after sex. This gives her a break from me perhaps being too playful, AND it gives her a fair chance at being the one that might want to initiate.


Hopefully the three days interval is fixed. My wife said something similar a while back (the infamous "my body needs time to recover" lolz from what) and the rest is history.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Good Guy said:


> I believed all this to be true. Now I know that women lie about all this kind of stuff all the time, including my own mother and daughter. They say what they are expected to say. I don't know how men can have any normal view of relationships when these lies are propogated. I don't blame them for this, there is a lot of societal pressure on them to say these things. A lot of women don't think like the above at all, but pretend they do.
> 
> I never had sex before I got married for this reason ( I did "fool around" but nothing like oral or whatever, very innocent), even though I had lots of opportunity. Now I regret this. Later, having women come on to me knowing I was married, one herself married, and she came on to me purely for sex, and hearing some stories female friends told me about how many guys they slept with when they were younger really shocked me. Also seeing how they are with their daughters - how sleeping around is normal now and even cheating on their boyfriend is encouraged by one mum as "they aren't that serious". They didn't play by the rules I was taught that women say they play by themselves. I was really sold a bill of goods. Then to hear that a man who sleeps with a lot of women is admired? He certainly was not admired publically where I come from. I have no problem with all this, except the cheating bit, but I was playing by different rules. I didn't want to hurt anyone by pressuring them into something I THOUGHT they didn't like or want (sex). Then to learn I was seen as some sort of loser for being like that.
> 
> ...


You have a much clearer conscience than your wife does, GG. Do not underestimate the peacefulness you enjoy because of your own choice to be honest and faithful. I bet she wishes she could say the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

DustyDog said:


> I can't speak for all men, but here's where I got my particular opinions from:






DustyDog said:


> - From an early age, the message that sex belongs inside a marriage and not outside was prevalent. No, I was not raised religious. That messages was strong, and still is.


In my youth, yes from family, religion, advertisements, music, and television. 

Today, I find that marriage doesn't matter as much. It seems like an ideal that cannot be sustained because we don't know how to feel satisfied with it in the long run. 

I admit my circle is limited, but the information is from what I have heard women say to each other. (And men, by the way)




DustyDog said:


> - Hanging around folks throughout my life, conversations often turned to couplehood and behavior within it. Women might comment on someone they knew who was living with a guy, and the talk was rarely positive - "she's letting him have sex without being married, this will go badly". So, a strong message from many women that as a woman, she would rather NOT have sex unless married. I'm speaking of general social groups, not my personal girlfriends.



This talk about living together being something to be ashamed of isn't as prevalent with the younger folks today. 

What is the same and is likely normal, those same women still talk about their relationship or dating and sometimes in a negative way. It seems to me those women naturally want to share experiences to determine the best way to handle things they don't like in their personal life.

Other women will tell them about their own experiences and agree with them that their partner is out of line and the woman's emotions are justified. They tell them how they moved on from that and their personal experiences with that move. 

Sometimes, they offer suggestions, but only if asked. 

How bad it was and then how good seem to have their emphasis based upon time in the relationship. So,The only positive talk seems to be when the relationship is new. I suppose that can mean any number of things.





DustyDog said:


> - The scorn gets far greater if someone's guy cheats on the girl, whether in marriage or not.


Sure does. I don't think there is much difference in men and women. If s/he isn't the one getting it, it isn't as easily accepted. Sometimes, it's just the fact that one of them loves the other much more. This love is an internal feeling and some say it's codependency, or some other term with negative connotations. 

I think there is a certain amount of some of those terms in a good relationship where two rely on each other. I think that's the way it is supposed to be if two want to have a long marriage. It's the new interpretations dissecting each of those terms that causes angst in our population.





DustyDog said:


> So, I "got it" - sex is not desired outside of marriage, if there's a choice. And, once married, or even "going together", the pressure for the guy to be monogamous gets 10 X stronger.


Even though I grew up thinking much of the same, when I was old enough to determine what I wanted and at the same time, feeling those strong pulls toward women, I made my own decisions about that.

What this doesn't take into account is reality. There have always been men and women who loved to play the field. They were defined as wrong or bad only based upon what rules you believed in.

I never felt pressured to be monogamous. I decided early in life that's what I wanted. It wasn't something that just came to me, but I just observed and eventually determined there was more benefit to being in a monogamous marriage than any other kind of relationship. 

That benefit was my determination. This isn't a statement about what everyone should or shouldn't do. Nor is it a statement about how everyone acts, but just what I've observed with my limited abilities. 





DustyDog said:


> Now, I'm a logical person...if I were the one to say "you can't do this unless you agree to be with me foreever" and then "once you've agreed to be with me forever, you can do this, but ONLY with me"...I would assume that I had just made an unspoken, but very real social contract, that I would be a willing partner in whatever "this" is...whether sex, shopping, investing, or fishing.


I think that's part of the reason for vows. You both can publicly state general intentions. You both know what your church expects, or should. You have considered your options. You have made a choice about what is best for you.





DustyDog said:


> Philosophy, religion and psychology have long held that there are four types of intimacy. Three of them are permissible outside the marriage, one is not. So, that one - sex - is most certainly risen to a higher priority than the others, simply because society et al, puts so many more rules on it than the other three.


As a child, when I was told I couldn't have something, I wanted it more. To some extent, we are just children in fully matured bodies. That's where maturity comes in. 

The more mature we are, the more we understand empathy, the need for rules, honor at least in your promises of marriage(since these include the possibility of an innocent child that relies on you for his/her very life), and many other highly respected human qualities.

When you think about it, this change in personal values is directly related to opportunities or choices which are as good or better than what we have at present or the much lamented past. Good in the above sentence is subjective. 




DustyDog said:


> Just my opinion, for what it's worth.
> 
> woof


Interesting to read, consider, and comment on.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Good Guy said:


> I believed all this to be true. Now I know that women lie about all this kind of stuff all the time, including my own mother and daughter. They say what they are expected to say. I don't know how men can have any normal view of relationships when these lies are propogated. I don't blame them for this, there is a lot of societal pressure on them to say these things. A lot of women don't think like the above at all, but pretend they do.


Everyone lies. 

It's group think. Men do it. Look at this thread. 

Some of it is just ignorance and going along with the crowd, because they must be right. The majority think this way, men and women. 



Good Guy said:


> I never had sex before I got married for this reason ( I did "fool around" but nothing like oral or whatever, very innocent), even though I had lots of opportunity. Now I regret this.


No regerts. Who do you blame? Women? Men? Religion? Society? Really, you can only blame yourself for being naïve and not checking the facts before you made the decision.

I did not save myself for marriage, though I married the woman I was with the first time. That was a mistake. 

I turned down women who wanted me because I didn't want sex, just for the sake of having it. It was more important to me than just physical release. It's a bond through chemicals. This is proven with science. It's not just in some religious teachings. I don't want to bond like that with just anyone. 





Good Guy said:


> Later, having women come on to me knowing I was married, one herself married, and she came on to me purely for sex, and hearing some stories female friends told me about how many guys they slept with when they were younger really shocked me.


I was shocked a little when I found out. It doesn't change why I do what I do, or believe what I do. That's on me. 




Good Guy said:


> Also seeing how they are with their daughters - how sleeping around is normal now and even cheating on their boyfriend is encouraged by one mum as "they aren't that serious". They didn't play by the rules I was taught that women say they play by themselves.


All women do not play by those rules about sex. All men do not play by those rules. 




Good Guy said:


> I was really sold a bill of goods.


You bought that bill of goods. If you were going to buy a house, you'd have it inspected to see what needs fixed and estimated costs. Isn't marriage to one person for life more important than a house? 



Good Guy said:


> Then to hear that a man who sleeps with a lot of women is admired? He certainly was not admired publically where I come from.


Some women admire him. Sometimes, I think it's more a curiosity. Is he really that good? They can only know if they spend time with him. He isn't going to spend time with a woman who isn't giving him what he wants. 

I'm not in agreement with all women are thinking exactly the same. There are patterns of consistency, but various reasons for them that are individual. 



Good Guy said:


> I have no problem with all this, except the cheating bit, but I was playing by different rules. I didn't want to hurt anyone by pressuring them into something I THOUGHT they didn't like or want (sex). Then to learn I was seen as some sort of loser for being like that.


Are those who think you are a loser, folks you respect and desire to emulate? I find that difficult to believe. 

We are all pressured to do things. Our wives pressure us to meet their needs with consequences. Our lives are filled with pressure and consequences. 

It's their choice to succumb to the pressure or believe in themselves. Which do you respect more? 




Good Guy said:


> Also I thought women put a higher value than men on truth and honesty - again my mother demanding the truth etc from us and my dad, and talking about liars in a very derogatory way (my mum is a scrupulously honest person).


In some articles I've read, it seems women require honesty from those men they are relying on, and may or may not be honest with them depending on how they believe they will be affected by their decision. 

Doesn't seem too odd to me. 




Good Guy said:


> This led me to believe all women were like that, when nothing could be further from the truth. I was ill prepared for the world as it really is. I could have been saved so much pain if I had just been told from the start how there are people out there born bad, and never assume anyone is honest, especially those closest to you. That's the real world.


If a parent told a child this, it wouldn't be the whole truth, the child would not do what they asked, homework would not get done, life would be anarchy.




Good Guy said:


> Also the whole women aren't interested in sex and men are only interested in sex. A big pile of crap.


Of course it is. It always has been. Probably the reason it was spread was to get men and women to marry young, because married couples have children, need to purchase many things, join society and contribute to taxes assessed on goods, services and income. 

Singles without children don't spend nearly as much money, nor do they feel the need to go on vacation as often to relieve life pressures. They don't consume as many goods and services. They don't care as much about keeping up with their friends and neighbors who have purchased a new car, pool, treehouse, etc. They don't have birthday parties and invite neighbors kids. The don't purchase costumes and candies for Halloween. They don't buy as many gifts for Christmas. They don't go to church en masse and give. They go to wally world and buy goods. 

See a pattern? 

Yeah, I could be wrong. 

I'm just looking at who it benefits. Now, just figure out who is benefitting most from those single parents. I don't think folks are all that different. I think the pressures have changed along with who is behind them.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

MrsAldi said:


> Why do these threads turn into "battle of the sexes"
> God Sake!
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


Because 

You know

TAM
:wink2:


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Guess I have been lucky in life to never have a woman accuse me of just using her for sex inside a relationship or just looking at her as a sex object. If I am honest I wouldn't handle that well. We all have needs and sex is a top priority for me. It's one of the most important ways I can establish intimacy in a relationship. I guess I could accuse my GF or X wife as using me a sounding off or venting tool since they both used me to listen to them or maybe a finance tool since I made more than they did but Where would that get me? 

They have needs and as a good husband or boyfriend, not at the same time mind you , I want to fulfill them. So if I ever heard a woman I was with refer to sex as a chore, or she referred to herself as a sexual object only then that means she doesn't get it, or me.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

QuietSoul said:


> Hi BadSanta.
> 
> I may have some catching up to do on this thread so bear with me, but a couple of questions for now:


If memory serves me correct, you are in a situation where you are frustrated with your husband's lack of effort towards improving intimacy and increasing the frequency. So I'm not sure answering these questions will be helpful as you may only use my answers to increase your level of frustration towards your husband. I'd advise you to read my answers as if they would be answers you could give to your husband.

*1. On average, how often do you and your wife have sex? How often do you want to have sex? How often do you think is reasonable?*

Excluding her period we have sex about once to twice a week. I would enjoy sex everyday, but I am OK with twice a week. 
*
2. When you do have sex, how does it come about? Is it always you who initiates, mostly you, half half? Are you both already in bed, or us she in the middle of knitting socks and watching Bold and the Beautiful and you started kissing her neck? Just trying to get an idea of where her head might be at at the time you initiate...*

I am ALWAYS the one that initiates, and very often my wife will reject me. Just recently I initiated this past Thursday and she asked me to wait until Friday. Friday she said she was busy, and knowing Saturday was too complicated she said she would give me some attention this morning. This morning she did not want to wake up, and only got herself going in time for a scheduled family event. Am I upset? No! But I do know that the next time I initiate that I will be rather aggressive to the point that she will know that it is going to happen, and that is actually what she tends to enjoy the most from my experience. She wants me to be overexcited and just have my way with her, but then she will complain that I don't last long she will ask me to get the vibrator. 

*3. When you are generally affectionate, eg you have your arm around her, you have a nice hug, rub her back maybe, does it tend to lead yo sex and if so do you feel (if you are honest with yourself) that you have an expectation that it should?*

We spend some intimate time together almost everyday that is nonsexual. Often I will rub her back or listen to her talk about things while we hug. This does NOT always lead to sex, but 80% of the time I do get aroused with an erection, and she finds that annoying. We obviously don't have sex every time I get an erection, but I wish she would not get frustrated just because I get erections so easily. Just because I get an erection does not mean the hug has transformed into something sexual, it just means that I am enjoying being close to her. My erections means that I have the capacity for sex, and not that we are having sex. That is all. 

*4. Do you view sex with your wife as transactional? Ie, "I do X Y and Z for her/our family/our home, therefore I should get sex at my desired frequency"?*

No our sex is not transactional. Although she does joke that her sexual favors are very expensive, and I joke that I have so much debt that I never be able to pay off my debt and that a little more makes no difference. If she ever asks me to do her a favor for having recently given me a BJ or something, I'll claim she used up ALL her credits on back rubs. I'll then ask her if she wants another back rub, but I playfully warn that it is so expensive that she will never be able to repay her debt! So when it comes to actual transactions, NO! But we do really enjoy making jokes with each other as if it were. 

You may have even heard of making covert contracts in which I do something nice and expect sex in return. We joke about that too! I'll do something nice just for her, and if she claims I am doing it just for sex (the whole point of this thread), I'll look at her and say YES AND I"M NOT EVEN IN THE MOOD, SO YOU REALLY HAVE YOUR WORK CUT OUT FOR YOU!!!! Now I'm not always that quick with my humor, and I do occasionally grow tired of her claiming that everything I do for her that is nice is just because I want sex.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

QuietSoul said:


> OK, have now caught up...
> 
> Some more questions:


OK... I'll continue to answer.

*1. With the porn thing in the past and her continuing to accuse you, the thing that jumps out at me here is a lack of trust on her part. Aside from previous porn stuff, has there been anything else that has potentially damaged her trust? *

According to her I'm not the best at keeping my promises when she asks for a favor. Imagine there is a light bulb burnt out, and she asks me to change it. That I'll actually do! But while I am in the process she will complain that she hates CFL bulbs and she will ask me to change ALL the bulbs in a fixture so that they match. I'll say yes just to get her to be quiet with the intentions of doing it, but then discover that I do not have enough new light bulbs to complete her request. I feel as long as the light works it should be fine and then just leave it as is, and then she becomes furious with me for lying to her about changing all the bulbs. Little stuff like that, but apparently it is a HUGE deal for her and I have trouble seeing why it is such a priority. We get in a fight and I end up going to WalMart at 2am for more light bulbs to end the argument in a rather passive aggressive way to say, "OK WOMAN HERE ARE YOUR FREAKING NON-CFL LIGHT BULBS!"



*2. Going by some of your accounts of your arguments with her (and your plan to knock her back in that way next time she initiates), it seems a bit immature to me. Being a smart are and trying to win or have the best comeback line is not going to help anything. It will just liss her off. If you "win" you will have a short lasting sense of smig satisfaction but that will quickly wear off. It is not helping resolve things in the long term, it just makes it more impossible and unpleasant to try to discuss them at all. I would try to steer away fro this kind of dysfunction, it will not help your cause and it will do more damage in the long run.*

OMG the other day I started teasing her about how sexy she was and that I just wanted to put my face in her boobs! I asked her specifically if she enjoyed that in a way that strengthens our relationship to know that I desire her and she said, "NO that actually it does not help me in any way!" I told her that she needed to just get over the fact that I am ONLY attracted to her because she is an awesome person and that there is no way I would want to do that with anyone else that just crawled out of bed in pajamas with their hair in such a mess!


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

badsanta, your wife wants you to wait 3 days before initiating again. She may also want you to not talk about sex during those 3 days because if you do, her mind is telling her that that's all you ever think about and by the time the 3 days are up she's feeling as though she's banged you every day. Talk less about sex and see what happens.

BTW, when she accuses you of being irritable over lack of sex and that is not the reason then calmly, softly and respectfully look into her eyes and say "honey, not everything is about sex.". Less sarcasm and humor and she'll see you in a different light.


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

badsanta said:


> I've read so many threads and also received so many earfuls from my own wife that she feels that I only care about sex and not her. I definitely love my wife for who she is and yes I am guilty of wanting to enjoy sex more often than she feels comfortable giving it to me. At the same time all the threads I read about men being accused of this also claim to love their wives as a person beyond belief. So what gives!
> 
> My wife was complaining to me the other day that once again that I just wanted her for sex. I turned the tables on her and complained that she can only see me as a penis in the house that just needs sex and not for the husband that truly loves her. I told her that viewing me solely as an object that only needs sex to be happy disgusted me and that if she has not gotten the message by now that I love her as a person it is because SHE is the one guilty of seeing me as just a sex object.
> 
> ...


Eh.....well it seems the usual intro to a cheating wife story...

Not sure what you want though. You are wrong, but that will not be what you want to hear. So what is the point.


----------



## dash74 (Jan 3, 2015)

badsanta said:


> I'm starting to think that the message given by society/church/parents/friends that the only thing most men want is to "get into a woman's pants" does serious harm.
> 
> 
> I'm a big boy and I can deal with this, but in my opinion it is a DOUBLE STANDARD, and women are the ones guilty of viewing us husbands solely as an object that wants sex while discounting every attempt of ours to tell you that we actually love YOU!!!


You have found the secret Badsanta that is it, I had this same conversation early on in our marriage.

And part of that is a mindset that some women have called "reward sex" do this I will do that, never never ever ever let that start in a marriage talk about unsexy yak

By far one of the best post in this section


----------



## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

Good Guy said:


> To a lot of guys, he doesn't sound like a terrible guy at all, he is just who he is, not a very emotionally expressive person - but more reliable and dependable than other insincere types who do this kind of ego stroking all the time while cheating on her with other women. And I bet he was like this before he married too, so no sudden surprises.
> 
> Do you compliment him at all? My wife constantly fishes for compliments but I don't think she has ever once complimented me in 20 years.
> 
> ...



I don't think my husband is a terrible guy at all, he's the best man and father I know. We have had some issues in our marriage but they have all stemmed from our lack of communication with each other whether it be because we both can be shy and very stubborn as well. I have always felt lucky and proud to be him wife. 

As for complimenting him, yes I do. I always tell him what a good father he is, how smart he is, how handy and creative. I send him random emails telling him as such and I randomly hide notes for him to find, some sweet and some sexy and racy ones. I make a big deal out of his birthday and Father's Day and try to do nice things for him, like pick up his favourite treats or stop to get his favorited beer at the store for no reason. Have I always done this in our whole 18 year marriage, no there was a 5 year point where I was in mommy mode and struggling with depression so he got neglected from me at that time. When the fog lifted for me, I went right back to trying to improve our marriage and back to showing my love and appreciation for my husband.

And as for how do I know for sure he was looking for sex when he got more attentive, I don't for sure know that's why, but at the time that was what it felt like to me. Maybe if we had of communicated more we might have solved that problem then..lol 

I really wish I had of known back then that everytime I rejected my husband for sex he felt like I was rejecting him personally and that I didn't love him. I would have stopped rejecting him a long time ago and had a lot more fun over the years myself. :wink2:


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Ynot said:


> Not disputing any of this. my post was simply to point out that more and more people are outliving (often times much more healthy as well) the prior standards of life expectancy and that the growing numbers of "silver" divorces are an example of the fact that perhaps we are not meant to "mate for life". What any of us wanted as a 20 year old has changed dramatically by the time we are 50 or 60 (and for the most part healthy and still active). This aspect of life (along with the growing numbers of other age related maladies) is something that modern society has yet to accept and make accomodations for.
> And FTR, I totally reject the idea that people don't change. Everyone and anyone who has ever lived has changed over the course of a lifetime, even on the most fundamental levels.


I've done 2 threads on this subject.. to seek out others thoughts on it... seems many times Traumatic experiences changes people.. Betrayal / heartbreak can also profoundly change a person...some grow from it.. some remain stuck.. distrusting.. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...y-change-over-years-how-have-you-changed.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ng-vows-now-who-what-why-could-weathered.html

I speak as one who doesn't feel we have changed much at all...not in significant ways... I'd say the biggest was awakening fully to expressing my sexuality & loosing some of my religion along the way...Husband has always , if nothing else, consistently remained who he was..... sure I'd say we both gained "confidence" since our meeting in our teens ..having each other.. building a family together...making it , much to be thankful for.. with a treasure of memories shared....

The same things we wanted THEN.. would be the same things we'd want to do all over again.... Sure there is a few regrets along the way.. where we missed it ... but outside of this...I'd want to grab the same man & do it all over again..

I tend to look through these lenses when it comes to LOVE, marriage / longevity ....how our roots become so entwined...they start to grow together.... (this 1st isn't the full quote, so I added the 2nd as well)..








...


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

badsanta said:


> If memory serves me correct, you are in a situation where you are frustrated with your husband's lack of effort towards improving intimacy and increasing the frequency. So I'm not sure answering these questions will be helpful as you may only use my answers to increase your level of frustration towards your husband. I'd advise you to read my answers as if they would be answers you could give to your husband.
> 
> *1. On average, how often do you and your wife have sex? How often do you want to have sex? How often do you think is reasonable?*
> 
> ...


I'm in a new relationship after ending my engagement. He is always wanting sex, every time we're together. lol I'll say, we are going to be late, we told your parents we'd meet them soon. He will still beg a little to get me to give in. If I end up going long term with this guy, I wouldn't want this to change about him. It is part of his charm, and it makes me feel really beautiful when he asks me so often. We were friends first, and he tells me he thought of me this way back then, unbeknownst to me. I'd be happy with less sex, but at the same time, I want to please him, because I care for him.

The day you stop asking your wife so often for sex, is when she should be concerned.  I know there's two sides to every story, but this thread seems to illustrate your marriage as one where you seem to do way more than her, in terms of showing affection, attention and romance. Sex isn't everything, and it can become too excessive, but no one should ever feel like they need to do a 'favor' for their spouse, in order to ''earn'' sex. You seem like you really put A LOT of effort into your marriage. Hope your wife appreciates you.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Legend said:


> I look back now and realize that her knee-jerk, oft repeated "you just want sex" was disingenuous at it's core.


Interesting you can look back on that comment! 





MrsAldi said:


> So you had an agreement and then you wanted more?
> You renegged on the contract!


No I do honor the three days, even if I am under a lot of stress. Last time we had sex was a week and a half ago. I initiated this past Thursday (one week later) as she had been on her period. She rejected me, rescheduled, rescheduled, and things ended up today where we have not even seen one another as she has been busy with her parents. SHE RENEGGED! Am I upset? No, but I am disappointed that she does not make any priority time for us, when she knows I desire her. It is an ugly cycle, because now she will start claiming I am putting too much pressure, but I am not. I'm just disappointed she scheduled extracurricular stuff with her mom, meanwhile the kids and I have eaten breakfast, lunch, and dinner without her on a day we thought would be a family day. 





john117 said:


> Hopefully the three days interval is fixed. My wife said something similar a while back (the infamous "my body needs time to recover" lolz from what) and the rest is history.


Yes, I have been honoring it!



Blondilocks said:


> badsanta, your wife wants you to wait 3 days before initiating again. She may also want you to not talk about sex during those 3 days because if you do, her mind is telling her that that's all you ever think about and by the time the 3 days are up she's feeling as though she's banged you every day. Talk less about sex and see what happens.
> 
> BTW, when she accuses you of being irritable over lack of sex and that is not the reason then calmly, softly and respectfully look into her eyes and say "honey, not everything is about sex.". Less sarcasm and humor and she'll see you in a different light.


Thanks @Blondilocks I do actually make it a point to avoid the topic, but after three days and she becomes reluctant I might play grab ass here and there but I am playful about it. If I got too serious she would accuse me of being in a bad mood, and she often does this! 



*Deidre* said:


> I'm in a new relationship after ending my engagement. He is always wanting sex, every time we're together. lol I'll say, we are going to be late, we told your parents we'd meet them soon. He will still beg a little to get me to give in. If I end up going long term with this guy, I wouldn't want this to change about him. It is part of his charm, and it makes me feel really beautiful when he asks me so often. We were friends first, and he tells me he thought of me this way back then, unbeknownst to me. I'd be happy with less sex, but at the same time, I want to please him, because I care for him.
> 
> The day you stop asking your wife so often for sex, is when she should be concerned.  I know there's two sides to every story, but this thread seems to illustrate your marriage as one where you seem to do way more than her, in terms of showing affection, attention and romance. Sex isn't everything, and it can become too excessive, but no one should ever feel like they need to do a 'favor' for their spouse, in order to ''earn'' sex. You seem like you really put A LOT of effort into your marriage. Hope your wife appreciates you.


Thanks @*Deidre* ...hope your new relationship goes well. One thing that has caused a great deal of angst in my marriage is that my wife and I have very opposing views on self exploration. She claims to virtually never do it, and when she does she claims it makes her feel horrible. Me on the other hand, I feel like one needs to know themselves in order to be able to share yourself with someone you love. Have this conversation with your boyfriend sooner than later!

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

badsanta said:


> OK... I'll continue to answer.
> 
> *1. With the porn thing in the past and her continuing to accuse you, the thing that jumps out at me here is a lack of trust on her part. Aside from previous porn stuff, has there been anything else that has potentially damaged her trust? *
> 
> According to her I'm not the best at keeping my promises when she asks for a favor. Imagine there is a light bulb burnt out, and she asks me to change it. That I'll actually do! But while I am in the process she will complain that she hates CFL bulbs and she will ask me to change ALL the bulbs in a fixture so that they match. I'll say yes just to get her to be quiet with the intentions of doing it, but then discover that I do not have enough new light bulbs to complete her request. I feel as long as the light works it should be fine and then just leave it as is, and then she becomes furious with me for lying to her about changing all the bulbs. Little stuff like that, but apparently it is a HUGE deal for her and I have trouble seeing why it is such a priority. We get in a fight and I end up going to WalMart at 2am for more light bulbs to end the argument in a rather passive aggressive way to say, "OK WOMAN HERE ARE YOUR FREAKING NON-CFL LIGHT BULBS!"


I would tell her I didn't have enough bulbs. If she complained about it, I'd tell her firmly either to get them herself or that I would get them tomorrow. I wouldn't just not replace the rest of them and not say anything. That's dishonest - I'd be pissed too if I were your wife.


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

*It's group think. Men do it. Look at this thread. 

Some of it is just ignorance and going along with the crowd, because they must be right. The majority think this way, men and women. 
*

I get that. Neither my wife or I are like that.


*No regerts. Who do you blame? Women? Men? Religion? Society? Really, you can only blame yourself for being naïve and not checking the facts before you made the decision.
*

I'm going to go for religion and society. Women and men are not groups wielding influence despite what some feminists and mens rights groups would have you believe. While I agree with you, I never realized that such a fundamental thing in society was wrong. I don't blame myself for this. These things (i.e. what people are really like) can only be learned through experience. I have not made the same mistake with my kids. They know the reality - and I'm not in the "everyone is bad" camp - there are lots of good people out there, but sometimes they are hard to spot from the bad ones.

*I did not save myself for marriage, though I married the woman I was with the first time. That was a mistake. 
*

I did the same thing. I realize my initial post was misleading on this. I was talking about with other women. Even then I realized that some of the "rules" were stupid.

*I turned down women who wanted me because I didn't want sex, just for the sake of having it. It was more important to me than just physical release. It's a bond through chemicals. This is proven with science. It's not just in some religious teachings. I don't want to bond like that with just anyone. 
*

I don't know. I would have liked to have tried it. It also suggests that the only reason I "fell in love" if love exists - with my wife was because of sex. I don't think so. I fell in love with her way before we had sex. We could talk for hours.

*
I was shocked a little when I found out. It doesn't change why I do what I do, or believe what I do. That's on me. 
*

Yep

*All women do not play by those rules about sex. All men do not play by those rules. 
* 

I disagree in a way about men. The "rules" for men were that you didn't have sex before marriage but men were weak, and women would help them with being weak. Then seeing the opposite play out. So much BS it's unbelievable. Did a lot of women not get these rules? Or decide to ignore them? I am going to ask some women about this. No point in asking my wife, she won't tell the truth about it.


*You bought that bill of goods. If you were going to buy a house, you'd have it inspected to see what needs fixed and estimated costs. Isn't marriage to one person for life more important than a house? *

Yeah but society doesn't tell you to move into a house without inspecting it first. And you can't hire an engineer to inspect your wife - or at least in any useful way.

*Some women admire him. Sometimes, I think it's more a curiosity. Is he really that good? They can only know if they spend time with him. He isn't going to spend time with a woman who isn't giving him what he wants. *

Yeah I get it now. Apart from a rare few they never admit this to a me though. "Look at that guy, he's not that good looking .. blah blah blah" Maybe it's just me they say these things to.

*I'm not in agreement with all women are thinking exactly the same. There are patterns of consistency, but various reasons for them that are individual. 
*

Of course. Not everyone is the same. 

*Are those who think you are a loser, folks you respect and desire to emulate? I find that difficult to believe. *

Well I don't know if they think I'm a "loser" as such - deluded is probably more accurate. I have one friend who has had lots of success with women. He always said there was no such thing as love, and variety was what kept him happy. Do I want to emulate him? Thinking about it now, maybe, especially before I got married. I insisted love did exist, but now am not sure about that.

*We are all pressured to do things. Our wives pressure us to meet their needs with consequences. Our lives are filled with pressure and consequences. 

It's their choice to succumb to the pressure or believe in themselves. Which do you respect more?* 

Believing in yourself of course.


*In some articles I've read, it seems women require honesty from those men they are relying on, and may or may not be honest with them depending on how they believe they will be affected by their decision. 

Doesn't seem too odd to me. 
* 

This is really depressing, and this is who my wife is. Thing is, I genuinely loved her. Now that's broken. Before I didn't do this myself, it was the truth above all else. Now I play by these rules too. I stay married as long as it benefits me and my kids. I pretend everything is good between us and she pretends it is too. We live in a fantasy relationship that bears no resemblance to reality. I remember talking about the Matrix, a film she likes too. She says she wouldn't want to come out of the matrix. I would. That sums us up. For now I live in the matrix with her for now because it's more comfortable.


*If a parent told a child this, it wouldn't be the whole truth, the child would not do what they asked, homework would not get done, life would be anarchy.*

I don't agree, unless this was the only message. They still have to work hard and better themselves, and respect people if they respect them. There are good people out there. I'm not leaving out that message.


*Of course it is. It always has been. Probably the reason it was spread was to get men and women to marry young, because married couples have children, need to purchase many things, join society and contribute to taxes assessed on goods, services and income. 

Singles without children don't spend nearly as much money, nor do they feel the need to go on vacation as often to relieve life pressures. They don't consume as many goods and services. They don't care as much about keeping up with their friends and neighbors who have purchased a new car, pool, treehouse, etc. They don't have birthday parties and invite neighbors kids. The don't purchase costumes and candies for Halloween. They don't buy as many gifts for Christmas. They don't go to church en masse and give. They go to wally world and buy goods. 

See a pattern? 

Yeah, I could be wrong. *

I think you are right.

*I'm just looking at who it benefits. Now, just figure out who is benefitting most from those single parents. I don't think folks are all that different. I think the pressures have changed along with who is behind them.*

I don't know who benefits from single parents - player men who want to have sex with lots of women? Certainly not the economy, society or the taxpayer. And definitely not the children.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

One quick note, and maybe this is in part relatable to BadSanta, the challenge is that everyone wants to feel desired in a relationship. I am sure Mrs BadSanta wants to feel physically desired, but it appears she wants this on her own terms (i.e 3 day waiting limit). For me, that is not really how desire works and would kill much of the desire I would have. So you have on one side the Mrs is trying to control your desire for her, and along with that seems to bring into question her desire for you as well. Not really an ideal scenario, especially when combined, and would be a major buzzkill in having any sort of physical attraction towards that person.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

UMP said:


> The more a husband projects a desire to have sex with his wife, the more his wife will not want to have sex with him. (regardless of how he really feels)
> 
> The more a husband projects a lack of desire to have sex with his wife, the more his wife will want to have sex with him. (regardless of how he really feels)
> 
> ...


*Oh, how I adore women also!

But in essence, I really think that in women, more especially in the matter of LD-HD relationships, that they, as a gender, fully come to comprehend the real value of what it is that they possess, and accordingly, treat it moreso of "a reward mechanism," instead of the "shared human emotion" with their spouse!

And while I'm definitely not defending or condoning the "gay lifestyle" in any way, I'd like to know just how many gay committed couples undergo this LD-HD syndrome, of using sexual relations merely as a reward or a bargaining chip, rather than the unselfish loving event that mutual sex is really meant to be?

Ces pas?*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *Oh, how I adore women also!
> 
> But in essence, I really think that in women, more especially in the matter of LD-HD relationships, that they, as a gender, fully come to comprehend the real value of what it is that they possess, and accordingly, treat it moreso of "a reward mechanism," instead of the "shared human emotion" with their spouse!
> 
> ...


This also explains why a lot of women are against prostitution. Aside from trafficked or otherwise coerced women, there is no logical reason to prevent women (or men) willing to sell sex for a price from doing it other than a loss of power from women who use it as a bargaining tool. I would never stand for it being used as a bargaining tool. If that ever happens with my wife, I will get sex elsewhere - since it is worthless to her except as a blackmailing device, that makes it worthless to me too.


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> The day you stop asking your wife so often for sex, is when she should be concerned.


This assumes that your wife is interested in keeping you as a husband. Probably a good test.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Good Guy said:


> This also explains why a lot of women are against prostitution. Aside from trafficked or otherwise coerced women, *there is no logical reason to prevent women (or men) willing to sell sex for a price from doing it *other than a loss of power from women who use it as a bargaining tool. I would never stand for it being used as a bargaining tool. If that ever happens with my wife, I will get sex elsewhere - since it is worthless to her except as a blackmailing device, that makes it worthless to me too.


STDs?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> One quick note, and maybe this is in part relatable to BadSanta, the challenge is that everyone wants to feel desired in a relationship. I am sure Mrs BadSanta wants to feel physically desired, but it appears she wants this on her own terms (i.e 3 day waiting limit). For me, that is not really how desire works and would kill much of the desire I would have. So you have on one side the Mrs is trying to control your desire for her, and along with that seems to bring into question her desire for you as well. Not really an ideal scenario, especially when combined, and would be a major buzzkill in having any sort of physical attraction towards that person.


How is she trying to "control" his desire?

She is being honest about her own desire, and how long it takes to build. 

If he wanted to eat ice cream with her after breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and she wanted it only after dinner, how would that be her "controlling" him in any way?

Not getting what you want, exactly how and when you want it, does not mean anyone is "controlling" you in any way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> How is she trying to "control" his desire?
> 
> She is being honest about her own desire, and how long it takes to build.
> 
> ...


She told him she does not want him initiating within 3 days after sex. Whether she is being honest or not, she is in fact telling him to control his desire (i.e. you may desire me on day two, but according to the calendar it is a no go). She may be honest with her own desire, but by giving him a specific timeline (i.e. 3 days) she is taking control of his desire.


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

jld said:


> STDs?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would say that you are more likely to get an STD from a woman you pick up in a bar than one you pay for sex - since the latter would use protection. I don't know, I don't partake myself but I've been told safe sex is very important to most professional prostitutes. 

But anyway, a prostitute is the ultimate sex object - so why would men marry at all if prostitution is freely available as it is in many European countries? Even then many men end up falling in love with a prostitute - I knew a guy who did, used to bring her flowers and chocolates and everything. Clearly he didn't need to do this to get her to have sex with him !!!!

So that's the ultimate argument against the sex object comment. Sex with a fit 20 something woman with a hot body who fits whatever "type" or fetish a man can dream up - or sex with his older much less physically appealing wife who is into plain vanilla once a month. Why would a man choose the latter if he only thought of his wife as a "sex object". Seems a very conceited idea on the part of the wife to be honest.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

If your wife does not want to be the object of your sexual affection (versus a sex object), remind her that there are women who would like to be. If she doesn't understand and doesn't have desire, move on.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

arbitrator said:


> *Oh, how I adore women also!
> 
> But in essence, I really think that in women, more especially in the matter of LD-HD relationships, that they, as a gender, fully come to comprehend the real value of what it is that they possess, and accordingly, treat it moreso of "a reward mechanism," instead of the "shared human emotion" with their spouse!
> 
> ...


We have sex on Tuesdays and Fridays 99% of the time. My wife always waits till Tuesday or Friday afternoon to lay something heavy on me that she knows I might be a little cold about.
She obviously knows there is less chance that I will become negative or argue vs. a Wednesday or Saturday.

Sneaky!

The only sure fire way to end the madness is castration.

Oh well.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> She told him she does not want him initiating within 3 days after sex. Whether she is being honest or not, she is in fact telling him to control his desire (i.e. you may desire me on day two, but according to the calendar it is a no go). She may be honest with her own desire, but by giving him a specific timeline (i.e. 3 days) she is taking control of his desire.


She is not taking control of anything. She is telling him how her desire works, letting him know how to mesh with hers if he wants a certain response from her. 

He could still choose to pursue her every day. He would also have to accept the consequences of that choice.

Amazing to me that some of you think women have so much power over men. Women only have the power over men that men choose to give them. Nothing more, nothing less.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> How is she trying to "control" his desire?
> 
> She is being honest about her own desire, and how long it takes to build.
> 
> ...





EllisRedding said:


> She told him she does not want him initiating within 3 days after sex. Whether she is being honest or not, she is in fact telling him to control his desire (i.e. you may desire me on day two, but according to the calendar it is a no go). She may be honest with her own desire, but by giving him a specific timeline (i.e. 3 days) she is in fact taking control of his desire.


 @jld and @EllisRedding in reality my desire and libido remains fairly constant. Even if "I" wanted to have more control over it, there is really not much I can do, other than exercise to drain my energy. 

My wife's one admitted attempt to control my libido many years ago was to insist I stop masturbating. Well I tried, became rather needy, and she was upset that I wanted even more sex. At first SHE told me that we would have MORE sex if I stopped masturbating, but her intentions that she later admitted were to just hope I would want it less. Needless to say, this experiment of hers did NOT go well. This is when I began to learn that my wife's knowledge of my versus her sexuality is rather naive. I also discovered her web history one day while we were in the middle of this drawn out drama, and she was researching "why" people masturbate alongside religious views on the topic. ...anyway that was a long time ago! Just remembering it put me in a bad mood, because she does not care to educate herself on this topic with an open mind even today.

So this "three day" window to give her some space now helps from the standpoint of, I'm not going to get rejected on these days because I know not to ask. If I know not to ask AND I'm in the mood, well then I make it a point to really enjoy some me time!


----------



## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

UMP said:


> We have sex on Tuesdays and Fridays 99% of the time. My wife always waits till Tuesday or Friday afternoon to lay something heavy on me that she knows I might be a little cold about.
> She obviously knows there is less chance that I will become negative or argue vs. a Wednesday or Saturday.
> 
> Sneaky!
> ...



I'm a woman and I find that very sneaky!!

On the note of having sex on set days does that work for you? I asked my husband if he wanted to have set days that we would have sex for sure but he said no. He said sometimes he wants it one morning and then again at night and again on the next day but then he may not think about it again for a day or two. Right now it seems to be 6 to 7 times a week but i initiate more than half of those times. I find the more I have it, the more I want it.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

badsanta said:


> @jld and @EllisRedding in reality my desire and libido remains fairly constant. Even if "I" wanted to have more control over it, there is really not much I can do, other than exercise to drain my energy.
> 
> My wife's one admitted attempt to control my libido many years ago was to insist I stop masturbating. Well I tried, became rather needy, and she was upset that I wanted even more sex. At first SHE told me that we would have MORE sex if I stopped masturbating, but her intentions that she later admitted were to just hope I would want it less. Needless to say, this experiment of hers did NOT go well. This is when I began to learn that my wife's knowledge of my versus her sexuality is rather naive. I also discovered her web history one day while we were in the middle of this drawn out drama, and she was researching "why" people masturbate alongside religious views on the topic. ...anyway that was a long time ago! Just remembering it put me in a bad mood, because she does not care to educate herself on this topic with an open mind even today.
> 
> So this "three day" window to give her some space now helps from the standpoint of, I'm not going to get rejected on these days because I know not to ask. If I know not to ask AND I'm in the mood, well then I make it a point to really enjoy some me time!


Very mature of both your wife to let you know how often she can genuinely desire you, and you to accept that, badsanta.

Her idea for you to stop masturbatng sounds like her way to both take pressure off herself and try to help you do the same. I don't see it as controlling.

Maybe we should have a discussion on what controlling looks like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Daisy12 said:


> I'm a woman and I find that very sneaky!!
> 
> On the note of having sex on set days does that work for you? I asked my husband if he wanted to have set days that we would have sex for sure but he said no. He said sometimes he wants it one morning and then again at night and again on the next day but then he may not think about it again for a day or two. Right now it seems to be 6 to 7 times a week but i initiate more than half of those times.* I find the more I have it, the more I want it*.


I personally find a combination of scheduled and unscheduled sex to work best. With scheduled sex, there can be a lot of build up / excitement leading to it. On the downside, it could become a chore, and what could happen, you could stop trying on the non scheduled days. 

The bolded is where I think some issues can come from, especially if there is a drive mismatch. For one person, having sex could make them desire more sex. The other person may have sex and be "full" for some amount of time. Bridging the gap can be very frustrating, especially for the higher drive person.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> Maybe we should have a discussion on what controlling looks like.


*Please don't*, it will only get me excited!

>

PS: This is a joke to let you know how my wife feels being married to me!


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

badsanta said:


> *Please don't*, it will only get me excited!
> 
> >
> 
> PS: This is a joke to let you know how my wife feels being married to me!


You are funny, badsanta. 

You like the idea of dominant women, I think. I see it in a lot of your posts.

There is nothing wrong with that. I know I am very attracted to men that I see as dominant. We can't help what we like.

It really helps to be honest about it, though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Daisy12 said:


> I'm a woman and I find that very sneaky!!
> 
> On the note of having sex on set days does that work for you? I asked my husband if he wanted to have set days that we would have sex for sure but he said no. He said sometimes he wants it one morning and then again at night and again on the next day but then he may not think about it again for a day or two. Right now it seems to be 6 to 7 times a week but i initiate more than half of those times. I find the more I have it, the more I want it.


Well, 
I am 55 (heart attack survivor) and have been married 25 years, so twice a week is enough for me. I always thought the scheduling sex thing was ridiculous, now I love it. No initiations for anyone, therefore no rejections.

You must understand that sex is a very elaborate procedure for me.
I slather on an additional squirt of testosterone cream 2 days before sex. Get's me more cavemanish.

50mg of Viagra 1 hour before sex after not having eaten anything for at least 3 hours.

Couple glasses of wine and watch a little porn in the man cave.

Shave my balls, trim the forest and clean myself to a spit shine.

Shave my face, seriously gargle and brush my teeth.

Turn on the black lighting in the bedroom (secret code to keep the kids from disturbing us)

Pull out the German "Pjur" lube and vibrator as my failsafe devise.

Now I'm ready!!

You would think this tedious procedure would kill the moment.
It does not. It's like I'm Pavlovs' dog. I have conditioned myself to really put out on Tuesdays and Fridays. 

I'm a sexual Gold Medalist in my house :grin2:


----------



## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> The bolded is where I think some issues can come from, especially if there is a drive mismatch. For one person, having sex could make them desire more sex. The other person may have sex and be "full" for some amount of time. Bridging the gap can be very frustrating, especially for the higher drive person.



I can see where this can happen. I know my husband has had sex with me when he wasn't in the mood or thinking about sex at all, but he says I can get him in the mood pretty fast!


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> Well,
> I am 55 (heart attack survivor) and have been married 25 years, so twice a week is enough for me. I always thought the scheduling sex thing was ridiculous, now I love it. No initiations for anyone, therefore no rejections.
> 
> You must understand that sex is a very elaborate procedure for me.
> ...


You are another funny one, UMP. 

Glad that schedule is working out for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Daisy12 said:


> I can see where this can happen. I know my husband has had sex with me when he wasn't in the mood or thinking about sex at all, but he says I can get him in the mood pretty fast!


I think some may classify that as responsive desire? Same with my W, sex may not be on her mind but it takes me very little to get her going.


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Good Guy said:


> > I've been told safe sex is very important to most professional prostitutes.
> 
> 
> If you pay some prostitutes enough money, they _will_ go "bareback", especially if you've become a repeat customer.
> ...


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Vega said:


> Good Guy said:
> 
> 
> > If you pay some prostitutes enough money, they _will_ go "bareback", especially if you've become a repeat customer.
> ...


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Vega said:


> *But if a woman actually charged her husband for sexual services, most men would go broke/bankrupt between a few months to a year.*



Seriously @Vega

Then why is it my wife and her female friends PAY to go see captain america more than once? I can do that right at home and start charging HER for ogling me!


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Good Guy said:


> This assumes that your wife is interested in keeping you as a husband. Probably a good test.


I stopped completely. My wife is very concerned. She comments about it frequently.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> I stopped completely. My wife is very concerned. She comments about it frequently.


 @Holdingontoit 

Since you are on the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of you being the one that decided to be sexless, how often does she make comments to this regard?


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> I stopped completely. My wife is very concerned. She comments about it frequently.


So she is concerned you went the sexless marriage route? What exactly if she concerned about, assuming you felt your hand was forced to go this route?


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

So far, and it's been about a week.
She let me buy any tool I wanted.
She wore makeup to church.
I should have stopped asking for it years ago.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> So far, and it's been about a week.
> *She let me buy any tool I wanted.*
> She wore makeup to church.
> I should have stopped asking for it years ago.


She wanted you to pick a tool that would actually fix that thing in the house that SHE wants you to fix!










Meanwhile, I bet you picked out a 3D imaging sensor that attaches to your smartphone and lets you see where wires and pipes are hiding behind a wall **COUGH** squirrels are hiding inside a tree in your backyard.










..cause I'd be so guilty of doing the exact same thing!!!!!

Badsanta


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

She is not concerned in the sense that she wishes we were having more sex. Well, maybe she wants more sex but not with me. She is concerned in the sense that she fears I will leave her over the absence of sex.
A guy willing to accept infrequent inferior sex isn't going anywhere. A guy who rejects sex entirely instead of settling for infrequent inferior sex might be planning to leave. Hence the concern. And the repeated questions whether I plan to leave her.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> She is not concerned in the sense that she wishes we were having more sex. Well, maybe she wants more sex but not with me. She is concerned in the sense that she fears I will leave her over the absence of sex.
> A guy willing to accept infrequent inferior sex isn't going anywhere. A guy who rejects sex entirely instead of settling for infrequent inferior sex might be planning to leave. Hence the concern. And the repeated questions whether I plan to leave her.


OK, so she is concerned you will leave, but not concerned enough to do anything about it, is that correct?


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

It is not about lack of concern. It is about PTSD. And before we go throwing stones, I am not any different. I don't like being sexless, but I am not sufficiently concerned to do what would be required. So I wouldn't say she won't do anything. She will do some things. She is more affectionate. She is more complimentary. She would be willing to have starfish sex even though she does not find me sexually desirable. But she won't allow me to make sex good for HER. Because that would make her vulnerable and give me power to influence her. And she cannot tolerate that.


----------



## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

UMP said:


> Well,
> I am 55 (heart attack survivor) and have been married 25 years, so twice a week is enough for me. I always thought the scheduling sex thing was ridiculous, now I love it. No initiations for anyone, therefore no rejections.
> 
> You must understand that sex is a very elaborate procedure for me.
> ...


 @UMP, I love this. This is awesome. 

When sex in my former marriage began to wane in frequency (I'm super high drive, I want it every day, sometimes even multiple times daily), I knew that my expectations of frequency might be a little high. Our schedules had become complicated, and I wanted to schedule to make sure that we got enough nookie. He didn't want to schedule, because he thought that scheduling would kill the mood and spontaneity; I argued along your lines that it would heighten the anticipation.

I lost that argument, because he refused to cooperate with scheduling, and all that spontaneity and mood that he spoke so highly of? None of it ever happened, at least not coming from him. I would try to initiate, and I got turned down by him so many times that I stopped initiating, because I couldn't take the constant rejection anymore. And that's when our marriage went from low-sex to no-sex.

Good on you for keeping in the game, @UMP.


----------



## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> She is not concerned in the sense that she wishes we were having more sex. Well, maybe she wants more sex but not with me. She is concerned in the sense that she fears I will leave her over the absence of sex.
> A guy willing to accept infrequent inferior sex isn't going anywhere. A guy who rejects sex entirely instead of settling for infrequent inferior sex might be planning to leave. Hence the concern. And the repeated questions whether I plan to leave her.


UNLESS the man in question is using sex as an abusive control tactic. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but it was what my husband was doing.

I don't know what your story is, but withholding sex without communicating the why, or withholding sex to use it as a bargaining chip is cruel. Regardless of gender, and regardless of reasons.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

FeministInPink said:


> UNLESS the man in question is using sex as an abusive control tactic. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but it was what my husband was doing.
> 
> I don't know what your story is, but withholding sex without communicating the why, or withholding sex to use it as a bargaining chip is cruel. Regardless of gender, and regardless of reasons.


Curious if you don't mind me asking FIP since I enjoy your posts, what was your breaking point with your ExH where you decided enough was enough?


----------



## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> It is not about lack of concern. It is about PTSD. And before we go throwing stones, I am not any different. I don't like being sexless, but I am not sufficiently concerned to do what would be required. So I wouldn't say she won't do anything. She will do some things. She is more affectionate. She is more complimentary. She would be willing to have starfish sex even though she does not find me sexually desirable. But she won't allow me to make sex good for HER. Because that would make her vulnerable and give me power to influence her. And she cannot tolerate that.


I posted my previous comment before I saw this post. 

So you're not sufficiently concerned to do what would be required to fix your sexless marriage, but you are willing to refuse/reject your wife, which is getting you some of what you want but is likely also causing her MORE emotional stress and damage? Dude, this is manipulation, and this is BAD for any relationship.

I know this isn't the whole story, it's just one post, but this just sounds really bad. You and she should be talking and working out your issues. And if she has PTSD that is preventing her from being a full functioning partner in your relationship, she needs to see a therapist.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

You need the back story, they did counseling for > a decade and she never engaged.


----------



## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Curious if you don't mind me asking FIP since I enjoy your posts, what was your breaking point with your ExH where you decided enough was enough?


Ah, thanks 

That's a good question. Looking back, with hindsight being 20/20 and all that jazz, and considering how much I've learned and grown, my breaking point should have been much, much earlier. I stayed in that marriage/relationship far longer than I should have, and that has pretty much everything to do with the fact that my mother is/was emotionally abusive, and she conditioned me to accept the sh!tty behavior that he was dishing out.

So I think I was at the breaking point many times over, but I never broke and tried to keep moving forward. I finally got him to go to counseling, and he was basically sabotaging it (maybe subconsciously)--he flat out lied to our counselor about his behavior in the marriage, rewrote the past, and refused to do any of the "homework" she assigned. He would put on a good show for her, and be all like, "I'll do anything to save this marriage!" and then did nothing to back it up. 

After 5 weeks or so, I had my first one-on-one session with her. You can read the description here--no sense in re-writing all of it.

And that was my breaking point. I needed someone to tell me that it was OK for me to walk away from this relationship. That I wasn't a failure if I left, because I did everything that I could, but I was handicapped because he refused to participate, and his failure to love me wasn't my fault. It was, quite literally, an epiphany for me.


----------



## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

anonmd said:


> You need the back story, they did counseling for > a decade and she never engaged.


Thanks, @anonmd. But then that makes me wonder... if he's not willing to do what it takes, and she's not willing to engage with a therapist, why are they even still together? I'm sure there's more backstory to that, but it is the question that comes to mind.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

FeministInPink said:


> if he's not willing to do what it takes, and she's not willing to engage with a therapist, why are they even still together?


Sorry, my bad. You may have interpreted "doing what it takes" to mean doing what I would need to do for her to find me sexually attractive and for her to be willing to allow me to please her sexually. I am convinced there is nothing I could do that would produce that outcome.

What I meant by "doing what it takes" would be me filing for divorce. I do not wish to divorce her. So I am unwilling to do what it takes for me to have a satisfying sex life. I would rather stay married to her and be sexless than divorce her to seek sex elsewhere. My life. My choice. No manipulation. I have told her I do not intend to have sex with her ever again. So far she is staying. I am glad for that.

I think the fact that she stays even though I have announced I have no intention of ever having sex with her shows that my decision to never have sex with her is the correct one.

And @anonmd: it was only 8 years of MC and ST. It felt like > a decade, but on the calendar it was 8 years. We stopped more than a decade ago. So that may be where you got the > a decade idea.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> When sex in my former marriage began to wane in frequency (I'm super high drive, I want it every day, sometimes even multiple times daily), I knew that my expectations of frequency might be a little high. Our schedules had become complicated, and I wanted to schedule to make sure that we got enough nookie. *He didn't want to schedule*, because he thought that scheduling would kill the mood and spontaneity; I argued along your lines that it would heighten the anticipation.


While things in my marriage are no where near as bed as the situation you described, my wife refuses to let me schedule. She claims she also wants things to be spontaneous and natural. 

HOWEVER, when things could be natural and spontaneous she seems very confident in reserving the right to "reschedule" things for the next night. She did this to me last Thursday and rescheduled for Friday. Here it is Monday, nothing has happened yet, and to me this "natural and spontaneous" comes across more as her looking for another way to ignore things. Now if I gently remind her, I am now putting too much pressure on her AND coming across as if I only care about sex. I honestly think she enjoys waiting until it gets to the point where I just throw her to the bed and have my way with her (she admits she likes this). While that is fun for her, it just means I have to do all the work again.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

badsanta said:


> While things in my marriage are no where near as bed as the situation you described, my wife refuses to let me schedule. She claims she also wants things to be spontaneous and natural.
> 
> HOWEVER, when things could be natural and spontaneous she seems very confident in reserving the right to "reschedule" things for the next night. She did this to me last Thursday and rescheduled for Friday. Here it is Monday and to me this "natural and spontaneous" comes across more as her looking for another way to ignore things. Now if I gently remind her, I am now putting too much pressure on her AND coming across as if I only care about sex. I honestly think she enjoys waiting until it gets to the point where I just throw her to the bed and have my way with her (she admits she likes this). While that is fun for her, it just means I have to do all the work again.


How do you think she would react if in this case, you didn't initiate at all, left it up to her (even if it meant waiting days)?


----------



## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Sorry, my bad. You may have interpreted "doing what it takes" to mean doing what I would need to do for her to find me sexually attractive and for her to be willing to allow me to please her sexually. I am convinced there is nothing I could do that would produce that outcome.
> 
> What I meant by "doing what it takes" would be me filing for divorce. I do not wish to divorce her. So I am unwilling to do what it takes for me to have a satisfying sex life. I would rather stay married to her and be sexless than divorce her to seek sex elsewhere. My life. My choice. No manipulation. I have told her I do not intend to have sex with her ever again. So far she is staying. I am glad for that.
> 
> ...


Ah, I see now. Yes, that is how I interpreted it. Thanks for the clarification. 

I can't even imagine. My hat's off to you... I'm not sure that I could do that.


----------



## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

badsanta said:


> While things in my marriage are no where near as bed as the situation you described, my wife refuses to let me schedule. She claims she also wants things to be spontaneous and natural.
> 
> HOWEVER, when things could be natural and spontaneous she seems very confident in reserving the right to "reschedule" things for the next night. She did this to me last Thursday and rescheduled for Friday. Here it is Monday, nothing has happened yet, and to me this "natural and spontaneous" comes across more as her looking for another way to ignore things. Now if I gently remind her, I am now putting too much pressure on her AND coming across as if I only care about sex. I honestly think she enjoys waiting until it gets to the point *where I just throw her to the bed and have my way with her (she admits she likes this)*. While that is fun for her, it just means I have to do all the work again.


Maybe you should just do this every time? If she likes you to be that aggressive, then maybe you just need to be that aggressive all the time.


----------



## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> How do you think she would react if in this case, you didn't initiate at all, left it up to her (even if it meant waiting days)?


I think @badsanta might never have sex again if he did that.

ETA: (Because that's what happened to me when I left it up to my LD XH to initiate. No sex, hardly ever. IN the last year we were together, we had sex twice, and I had to get him drunk first, and so you KNOW that wasn't any good. Just saying.)


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

FeministInPink said:


> Maybe you should just do this every time? If she likes you to be that aggressive, then maybe you just need to be that aggressive all the time.


I think the issue, and kinda along the lines of what BadSanta said, that leaves him doing all the work all the time. At some point that gets to be a bit of a buzzkill as you can imagine (as I am sure you can relate to when being with someone who never or hardly initiates).

Not quite along the same lines, but in order to help with our schedule (my W and I, not your schedule and mine lol) I have been more actively initiating sex in the morning before the kids are awake. My W much prefers this and very much enjoys it (why wouldn't she, she gets woken up in some of the best ways possible  ). However, I am the morning person and the one who is up, so this means in the morning it is pretty much 100% on me to start things. I don't mind taking on a bulk of it, but not sure if it will grow tiresome quick if the ball is always in my court. We will just see how it goes, and hopefully she still does her part to initiate where possible at other times not in the morning to help provide some sort of balance.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> I think the issue, and kinda along the lines of what BadSanta said, that leaves him doing all the work all the time.


Just goes back to being a bad match. The core problem is that BadSanta views initiating and being dominant as work instead of fun. Not suggesting he is unusual in feeling that way, just saying that his wife would be better off married to someone who ENJOYS initiating. Who likes being dominant all the time. Who would feel weird if the woman ever initiated. And who wouldn't give it a thought (or would think "her loss") when he got shot down.

Now, the problem comes if BS's wife holds a grudge if he throws her down on the bed when she is not in the mood. See, if she wants him dominant, she has to give him a pass on being dominant at the wrong time. Not saying she is obliged to consent. But if he initiates and she turns him down, he shouldn't pout and she shouldn't hold it against him that he tried.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

FeministInPink said:


> I can't even imagine. My hat's off to you... I'm not sure that I could do that.


No time for hats. Feel good that you would never tolerate it. It is definitely NOT a good thing that I can and do.


----------



## no name (Aug 4, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> She told him she does not want him initiating within 3 days after sex. Whether she is being honest or not, she is in fact telling him to control his desire (i.e. you may desire me on day two, but according to the calendar it is a no go). She may be honest with her own desire, but by giving him a specific timeline (i.e. 3 days) she is taking control of his desire.




How about the word ' compromise ' rather then taking sides here? They both compromised their needs - she prefers a break , he rather have it everyday = compromise . You could say they both ' controlled their desires' in order to
Compromise. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> Maybe you should just do this every time? If she likes you to be that aggressive, then maybe you just need to be that aggressive all the time.


When I was writing my last response to you, those EXACT words were going through my mind!!!!! Also as others say it gets tiring doing all the work all the time.

...SO I have to throw a tantrum here and there for variety you know, or that would get boring!

Badsanta


----------



## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

no name said:


> How about the word ' compromise ' rather then taking sides here? They both compromised their needs - she prefers a break , he rather have it everyday = compromise . You could say they both ' controlled their desires' in order to
> Compromise.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Problem is... she doesn't seem willing to compromise here, does she? She gets to dictate all the terms, without consideration for badsanta's needs, or so it seems.


----------



## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

badsanta said:


> When I was writing my last response to you, those EXACT words were going through my mind!!!!! Also as others say it gets tiring doing all the work all the time.
> 
> ...SO I have to throw a tantrum here and there for variety you know, or that would get boring!
> 
> Badsanta


Not surprised. We're on the same page for most things!


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

badsanta said:


> When I was writing my last response to you, those EXACT words were going through my mind!!!!! Also as others say *it gets tiring doing all the work all the time.*
> 
> ...SO I have to throw a tantrum here and there for variety you know, or that would get boring!
> 
> Badsanta


It does not get tiring for this kind of man:



Holdingontoit said:


> Just goes back to being a bad match. The core problem is that BadSanta views initiating and being dominant as work instead of fun. Not suggesting he is unusual in feeling that way, just saying that his wife would be better off married to *someone who ENJOYS initiating. Who likes being dominant all the time. Who would feel weird if the woman ever initiated. And who wouldn't give it a thought (or would think "her loss") when he got shot down.*


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

FeministInPink said:


> Problem is... she doesn't seem willing to compromise here, does she? She gets to dictate all the terms, without consideration for badsanta's needs, or so it seems.


How exactly is she supposed to compromise? 

From the sound of it, badsanta wants her to be enthusiastic about sex. She can get genuinely enthusiastic every 3 days. In an effort to be cooperative, she told him this, gave him a blueprint to getting the satisfaction he wants. I think she is being quite considerate of badsanta's desires.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

badsanta said:


> While things in my marriage are no where near as bed as the situation you described, my wife refuses to let me schedule. She claims she also wants things to be spontaneous and natural.
> 
> HOWEVER, when things could be natural and spontaneous she seems very confident in reserving the right to "reschedule" things for the next night. She did this to me last Thursday and rescheduled for Friday. Here it is Monday, nothing has happened yet, and to me this "natural and spontaneous" comes across more as her looking for another way to ignore things. Now if I gently remind her, I am now putting too much pressure on her AND coming across as if I only care about sex. I honestly think she enjoys waiting until it gets to the point where I just throw her to the bed and have my way with her (she admits she likes this). While that is fun for her, it just means I have to do all the work again.


Would not be good enough here. How many more hoops are you expected to jump through?

She wants sex to be spontaneous which says she is not anti sex. But she is playing with you and manipulating your sex life.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

FeministInPink said:


> I think @badsanta might never have sex again if he did that.
> 
> ETA: (Because that's what happened to me when I left it up to my LD XH to initiate. No sex, hardly ever. IN the last year we were together, we had sex twice, and I had to get him drunk first, and so you KNOW that wasn't any good. Just saying.)




But didn't you eventually divorce and find someone compatible? I think if he doesn't do this he's destined to be mediocre the rest of his life. She does just enough to keep him on the hook but never enough to be really happy. And that's never going to change. Why should it? It's not like hell do anything about it.


----------



## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> But didn't you eventually divorce and find someone compatible? I think if he doesn't do this he's destined to be mediocre the rest of his life. She does just enough to keep him on the hook but never enough to be really happy. And that's never going to change. Why should it? It's not like hell do anything about it.


Yes, I did eventually divorce, and I have met someone who is much more compatible (but that is still quite new, so it hasn't been tested for longevity yet). And I divorced for many reasons beyond just the sexless nature of that ill-advised union. I won't go into all that because this is badsanta's thread.

My point is that more sex begets more sex, in most cases. The more you have it the more you want it. But if he cuts her off, she may be totally happy with that, which means it has the OPPOSITE effect than intended--he ends up having even less sex than before.

Now, I don't think that will necessarily mean the end of his marriage. Badsanta clearly loves his wife, and there's a lot of reasons for them to stay together, I'm sure. I'm not suggesting that his marriage will follow the same path that I did. But I DO think that cutting off the wife from carnal pleasure will just result in LESS sex for our friend, and I would like him to get MORE sex.


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Good Guy said:


> Vega said:
> 
> 
> > Well that's on the customer.
> ...


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Vega said:


> Do you really believe that society/church/parents and friends are where women get the idea that the only thing that men want is sex?
> 
> Women get that idea _from the men themselves_
> 
> ...


I agree and disagree (I can do that, right?)

Women get the idea that men only want sex from men that do not love them. In other words, the dating years. When they are in a relationship that DOES have love in it, it's difficult (or sometimes impossible, depending on their past experiences) to see men in a different way.

When I say "men that do not love them", I do not mean a-holes or jerks (although there are plenty of those). I mean relationships that are more casual and probably not with the goal of marriage. You date someone for a few months, or a year or two. Usually at a younger age. The kinds of relationships that are practice for marriage. They're not "the one", they're the "right now".

All of us men, myself included, have done this to women. Perhaps not consciously or with ill-will, but nonetheless. We enter into relationships in which we may really like and respect the person, and want to be with them, but we're not thinking marriage.

It's no wonder that women, after many experiences with men who ARE only after sex or having been broken up with by men because of sex, or have been cheated on, can't trust even the man they married in this regard.

In my own personal experience with my wife, I can tell you that she's more or less "sexed out". Most of her previous experiences (and problems) in relationships, including the longer ones, somehow revolved around sex in one way or another.

Long term relationship, he cheated. Long term relationship, sex died because he was an ass, therefore he accused her of cheating. A few relationships where she realized the guy was trying to have sex with her every single time they were together. Constantly having guys trying to pick her up every time she's out with the girls.

Women can't escape it. My wife sounds a lot like BadSantas wife. "You're only doing that for sex" "All you want is sex". And @badsanta is right - it's THEM who are viewing US in only one way, refusing to believe we do anything without the goal of sex.

Sometimes we DO do things with the goal of sex. That's generally how it works. Unless you just blurt out "let's go have sex!", there's always a lead-up to it. There has to be. Whether it's romantic (cooking a nice dinner with some soft music playing in the background) or a little more overt (a little touching, a deep kiss), there is almost always -something- we do for/to our wives when we're in the mood.

But the problem, as BadSanta alluded to, is that some women ONLY see that. Everything we do that appears above and beyond, or FOR our wives, is about sex.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Not gonna lie,I like the direction this thread is heading in where we are talking about the going rate for escorts :grin2:


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

tech-novelist said:


> Most women have no experience in being turned down for sex, so they tend to react to it worse than men, who generally have a lot of experience in that field. :frown2:


I turned my wife down once a couple of years ago. Partly because I wasn't feeling it with her at that time, partly because I was extremely tired. By "turning down", I don't mean she actually initiated and I brushed her off. Her way of initiating is largely to hint that she's okay with having sex. Being naked (and awake) under the covers when we go to bed is her initiation. At that point in our marriage, I was tired of that "initiation". The kind where I still do all the initiating anyway.

Anyway, she was practically furious with me for a day or two after that. And distant.

When we had it out (err, discussed it...) I pointed out that her reaction was very hypocritical (how many times had she rejected me, often outright and bluntly?) How entitled had she become about sex, where being rejected was something that just could not happen, ever? In all honesty, she likely had never been rejected, sexually, before, by anybody. It was foreign to her.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

alexm said:


> I turned my wife down once a couple of years ago. Partly because I wasn't feeling it with her at that time, partly because I was extremely tired. By "turning down", I don't mean she actually initiated and I brushed her off. Her way of initiating is largely to hint that she's okay with having sex. Being naked (and awake) under the covers when we go to bed is her initiation. At that point in our marriage, I was tired of that "initiation". The kind where I still do all the initiating anyway.
> 
> Anyway, she was practically furious with me for a day or two after that. And distant.
> 
> When we had it out (err, discussed it...) I pointed out that her reaction was very hypocritical (how many times had she rejected me, often outright and bluntly?) How entitled had she become about sex, where being rejected was something that just could not happen, ever? In all honesty, she likely had never been rejected, sexually, before, by anybody. It was foreign to her.


What was her response?


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@Vega: Prostitutes are only an acceptable substitute for sex within a relationship if what the man wants is sex itself - the act, the sensation and the orgasm. If sex is about more than that for the man, if it is about ego stroking and emotional connection, then hiring a prostitute is a complete waste of money. He'll get the sex but not the emotional connection and feel worse than before he went to the prostitute.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> @Vega: Prostitutes are only an acceptable substitute for sex within a relationship if what the man wants is sex itself - the act, the sensation and the orgasm. If sex is about more than that for the man, if it is about ego stroking and emotional connection, then hiring a prostitute is a complete waste of money. He'll get the sex but not the emotional connection and feel worse than before he went to the prostitute.


So then he needs to take responsibility for establishing and maintaining that emotional connection with his wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

@alexm post brings up an interesting question regarding initiating. I would guess everyone has a different definition of initiating, or there could easily be several different levels of initiating. Similar to Alex, my W will wear certain clothes (or better put actually, lack of clothes lol) when we go to bed knowing full well that it will "catch my attention" . In many respects this is nice to get a clear signal instead of having to solve some complicated mathematical equation about whether or not to initiate. However, if every time this occurs it is still on me to take it to the next level, it does lose its appeal b/c ultimately it still falls on me to get things started.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> @alexm post brings up an interesting question regarding initiating. I would guess everyone has a different definition of initiating, or there could easily be several different levels of initiating. Similar to Alex, my W will wear certain clothes (or better put actually, lack of clothes lol) when we go to bed knowing full well that it will "catch my attention" . In many respects this is nice to get a clear signal instead of having to solve some complicated mathematical equation about whether or not to initiate. However, if every time this occurs it is still on me to take it to the next level, it does lose its appeal b/c ultimately it still falls on me to get things started.


Many women (see, I didn't say "all women" >) have "responsive desire", which means they don't initiate but do get into it once things get rolling.

I don't see this as a problem as long as one is aware of it.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I didn't know any men needed women to initiate before reading TAM. Shocked Dug to read that, too.


----------



## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

alexm said:


> Sometimes we DO do things with the goal of sex. That's generally how it works. Unless you just blurt out "let's go have sex!", there's always a lead-up to it. There has to be. Whether it's romantic (cooking a nice dinner with some soft music playing in the background) or a little more overt (a little touching, a deep kiss), there is almost always -something- we do for/to our wives when we're in the mood.
> 
> But the problem, as BadSanta alluded to, is that some women ONLY see that. Everything we do that appears above and beyond, or FOR our wives, is about sex.[/QUOTE ]
> 
> ...


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> I didn't know any men needed women to initiate before reading TAM. Shocked Dug to read that, too.


I know, right, Scary to think that at times men might actually want to feel desired, or that maybe the engine needs a little revving up to get going .. I am really starting to question men these days!


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> Yes, I did eventually divorce, and I have met someone who is much more compatible (but that is still quite new, so it hasn't been tested for longevity yet). And I divorced for many reasons beyond just the sexless nature of that ill-advised union. I won't go into all that because this is badsanta's thread.
> 
> My point is that more sex begets more sex, in most cases. The more you have it the more you want it. But if he cuts her off, she may be totally happy with that, which means it has the OPPOSITE effect than intended--he ends up having even less sex than before.
> 
> *Now, I don't think that will necessarily mean the end of his marriage. Badsanta clearly loves his wife, and there's a lot of reasons for them to stay together, I'm sure. I'm not suggesting that his marriage will follow the same path that I did. But I DO think that cutting off the wife from carnal pleasure will just result in LESS sex for our friend, and I would like him to get MORE sex.*


 @FeministInPink I think you are correct. There are a lot of positives in my marriage, but our differences in sexuality have caused a great deal of angst. For me it is not exactly about having MORE sex, but more about finding a way to convey to her that my desire for her should "compliment" our relationship as opposed to being something that sometimes causes her anxiety. In the event I STOPPED pursuing her, this would likely feed into her low self esteem and she would convince herself that nobody wants her anymore. 





jld said:


> I didn't know any men needed women to initiate before reading TAM. Shocked Dug to read that, too.


 @jld you will have struggles one day, hopefully TAM will help!


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I know, right, Scary to think that at times men might actually want to feel desired, or that maybe the engine needs a little revving up to get going .. I am really starting to question men these days!


It does seem, at least from reading TAM, that men are becoming more emotionally dependent on women. That is always risky. And probably a big factor in sexless marriages, unless they are with dominant women who enjoy having an emotionally dependent partner.

Though, maybe some men have always been emotionally dependent on women. They are just not the ones I would ever have noticed, I guess. 

And that makes sense, because they would not be a fit for me, nor I with them. Nature is very efficient that way.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

badsanta said:


> @jld *you will have struggles one day*, hopefully TAM will help!


How so?


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> It does seem, at least from reading TAM, that men are becoming more emotionally dependent on women. That is always risky. And probably a big factor in sexless marriages, unless they are with dominant women who enjoy having an emotionally dependent partner.
> 
> Though, maybe some men have always been emotionally dependent on women. They are just not the ones I would ever have noticed, I guess.
> 
> And that makes sense, because they would not be a fit for me, nor I with them. Nature is very efficient that way.


Sigh ... how you take my post saying having your SO (in this case W) initiate periodically as being emotionally dependent ... :bsflag:


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Sigh ... how you take my post saying having your SO (in this case W) initiate periodically as being emotionally dependent ... :bsflag:


The idea is that you need her affirmation of your desire, no? You need her to want you for you to want sex? And her initiation is your proof of that?

To me, that is emotional dependence. If you were emotionally independent, you would just initiate because you wanted sex. If she declined, it would be no big deal. No need for her to initiate.

Honestly, I thought @Holdingontoit described it beautifully in his post:

_" . . . *someone who ENJOYS initiating. Who likes being dominant all the time. Who would feel weird if the woman ever initiated. And who wouldn't give it a thought (or would think "her loss") when he got shot down*."_


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> I didn't know any men needed women to initiate before reading TAM. Shocked Dug to read that, too.


My husband claims with words that he wants this but tends to turn me down when I do. Shrug.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> My husband claims with words that he wants this but tends to turn me down when I do. Shrug.


Why does he turn you down?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> Why does he turn you down?


Normal reasons. Not in the mood. Tired. Worried. It does not bother me, and I don't take it personally.

ETA: The idea that not wanting to have sex at the exact same moment your partner does is some kind of massive REJECTION makes no sense to me. Some days are diamonds and some are bark mulch. It is what it is.


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

jld said:


> I didn't know any men needed women to initiate before reading TAM. Shocked Dug to read that, too.


I think it's because they see women throwing themselves at men, or women other than their wives flirting with them. I guess they think it would be nice for my wife to do that ONCE ...


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> My husband claims with words that he wants this but tends to turn me down when I do. Shrug.


Wow ... is he bitter from no sex for a long time?


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

There was a time about 18 months ago, when my wife and I were about 15 months into our attempt at rekindling, and we had a heated discussion over her turning me down for sex, her lack of initiation, and just generally putting my needs somewhere around the bottom of her priority list. After agreeing to sex three times a week as a "compromise", our frequency was down to about once weekly or less. 

Something unrelated triggered the argument. After some heated discussion, she was mad at me over not "chasing" her, making her feel special, making her feel secure, etc. This was after a year of her basically being great for a week, then withdrawn for three. Other than the two weeks of destabilizing and not meeting her needs leading up to this argument, I was consistently meeting her needs. What she didn't realize was that the more things I did to help make her feel secure, the less sex we were having. She began to take me for granted when she felt secure. 

So I posed a simple question:

Why would I provide the very thing that causes you to neglect my need for sexual fulfillment?

She had no answer. In fact, she was nearly speechless (a rarity in an argument). Additionally, she tried to point to other things she had done, such as acts of service. While I was thankful for them, I posed the question right back at her. Suppose I had done acts of service, or listening to her vent about her day, or met other needs, but would not give her stability in any way, would she be appreciative or resentful? 

That was the part that finally got it to click in her head. That was the beginning of her actually prioritizing my needs consistently again.

Our marriage could have gone either way at that point. It was up to her to decide to step up to the plate or not. For the most part since then, she has. 

I think this type of conversation is desperately needed in @badsanta's marriage.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Good Guy said:


> Wow ... is he bitter from no sex for a long time?


No. We have sex all the time.


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Vega said:


> Good Guy said:
> 
> 
> > LOL! $200? * ONLY *$200? That might get you about 20 minutes worth and when you're time is up, she is gone, whether you orgasm or not. If you want her to stay, you'll have to show her the money...
> ...


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> No. We have sex all the time.


Hmm that's a shame. I wonder is it the more eager one partner is the less eager the other one is? Just a thought.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> The idea is that you need her affirmation of your desire, no? You need her to want you for you to want sex? And her initiation is your proof of that?
> 
> To me, that is emotional dependence. If you were emotionally independent, you would just initiate because you wanted sex. If she declined, it would be no big deal. No need for her to initiate.
> 
> ...


Once again, so far off from what I posted, you are just throwing your own interpretation/bias into it as usual.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Good Guy said:


> I think it's because they see women throwing themselves at men, or women other than their wives flirting with them. I guess *they think it would be nice for my wife to do that ONCE* ...


I appreciate your sincere comment, GG. 

I guess my question to you regarding the bolded would be: What need would that fulfill in you? Proof that you, too, are desirable?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Once again, so far off from what I posted, you are just throwing your own interpretation/bias into it as usual.


Huh. I thought it was a spot on response to your question.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

jld said:


> The idea is that you need her affirmation of your desire, no? You need her to want you for you to want sex? And her initiation is your proof of that?
> 
> To me, that is emotional dependence. If you were emotionally independent, you would just initiate because you wanted sex. If she declined, it would be no big deal. No need for her to initiate.
> 
> ...


Yeah but who thinks like this ... he still wants sex, so he's going to get it somewhere else - doesn't matter who provides it ! That's why it doesn't bother him. Don't you see this? Maybe you do and like it that way.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Good Guy said:


> Hmm that's a shame. I wonder is it the more eager one partner is the less eager the other one is? Just a thought.


Why is it a shame? I am eager whenever he is, for the most part. Maybe my timing just sucks.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> Huh. I thought it was a spot on response to your question.
> 
> I guess we will have to agree to disagree.


lol, not even in the same ballpark :wink2:


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Good Guy said:


> Yeah but who thinks like this ... he still wants sex, so he's going to get it somewhere else - doesn't matter who provides it ! That's why it doesn't bother him. Don't you see this? Maybe you do and like it that way.


Why would he get it somewhere else?

My husband certainly is not getting it somewhere else. He also never watches porn. I think that is part of why our sex life is healthy. 

That, and his emotional strength. I could never be attracted to someone emotionally dependent. I am the emotional dependent in our marriage. And that is fine with him, too.

It really is all about compatibility.


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

jld said:


> I appreciate your sincere comment, GG.
> 
> I guess my question to you regarding the bolded would be: What need would that fulfill in you? Proof that you, too, are desirable?


I thought about this a bit and the answer is proof that my wife actually cared and respected me. Anything else other people can do for me. If I don't feel that then I feel nothing for my wife and don't know why I should be married to her. As it happens, she does come on to me now occasionally - a big improvement over before.

The other side of this is if the man advances are accepted 9 times out of 10 or even 5 / 10 then there's no big deal with "not tonight". If it's rejected 99 times out of 100 it's a very different story.


----------



## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Has anyone had an experience with a sex therapist where the one spouse has to take the lead initiating? 
Or is that just unique for me? 
In my situation I have to lead the way, which seems to be making things better. 



Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

MrsAldi said:


> Has anyone had an experience with a sex therapist where the one spouse has to take the lead initiating?
> Or is that just unique for me?
> In my situation I have to lead the way, which seems to be making things better.
> 
> ...


What do you mean, initiating with the therapist?


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

jld said:


> Why would he get it somewhere else?
> 
> My husband certainly is not getting it somewhere else. He also never watches porn. I think that is part of why our sex life is healthy.
> 
> ...


I'm not suggesting there is a problem with you and Dug 

If I may ask, what % of time (roughly) would you reject his advances?

Also the dominant thing is a good point - I have become more dominant in our relationship and it has helped a lot. Before I was doing stuff to make my wife happy, even at my own expense. That was not the way to go. Men are brainwashed to be submissive and in touch with their feminine side though.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

My wife and I agree to just keep doing the things for each other that make the other feel loved. 

Early on, she did not do much for me that made ME feel loved. She tried doing things that would make HER feel loved, and didn't understand why I didn't feel loved. After a couple years of sex being a "scratch to itch", I basically told her that I will do the things that make her feel loved as often as she did the things that made me feel loved. 

But she wasn't in the mood for sex! No problem, I wasn't in the mood to go shopping with her either, or cuddle. But she doesn't like going on those quick fishing trips! Well, i don't like those window shopping trips either, no problem. 

But, I was taking everything away from her that made her feel loved! I know right? That's how I feel all the time! You mean, you really didn't know that THAT is what it feels like?! 

Well, i guess you really DO have to experience not being loved in order to empathize with someone who doesn't feel loved. 

But, if you go shopping with me, I'll know that it's only because you want sex! Yeah, that kinda sucks. I know that you will only give me sex in exchange for a shopping trip...

How about sex once a week? Sure, cuddles and whatever you want, once a week. 

But that's not fair! You are right. I only get to feel loved and desired once a week....

What about what I feel?! I will worry about how you feel in the same way you worry about how I feel. if you can find a way to enjoy something sex, even if it is nothing more than the thought that you will get something for it, I will accept your attempts with gratitude. If you can accept my attempts to make you feel loved with gratitude, I am willing to find something to love about it. 


It was a bit clumsy at first. It got better pretty quick. We now actually enjoy the things we do for each other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Good Guy said:


> I thought about this a bit and the answer is proof that my wife actually cared and respected me. Anything else other people can do for me. If I don't feel that then I feel nothing for my wife and don't know why I should be married to her. As it happens, she does come on to me now occasionally - a big improvement over before.
> 
> The other side of this is if the man advances are accepted 9 times out of 10 or even 5 / 10 then there's no big deal with "not tonight". If it's rejected 99 times out of 100 it's a very different story.


So her sexual pursuit is your prime indicator of her love for you?

I am not questioning the veracity of that, btw. But it is hard for me to wrap my head around that.

Are there no other ways for you to feel cared for and respected by your wife? Again, just trying to understand.


----------



## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> What do you mean, initiating with the therapist?


My therapist says I'm to do all the initiating with my husband. 
(I'm not complaining about it, btw! )

I was wondering if anyone else has had an experience like that? 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MrsAldi said:


> Has anyone had an experience with a sex therapist where the one spouse has to take the lead initiating?
> Or is that just unique for me?
> In my situation I have to lead the way, which seems to be making things better.


Does that not affect your attraction to him?

Not that it should. It is just that it would for me. But that is the beauty of the world, that we are all different.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

MrsAldi said:


> My therapist says I'm to do all the initiating with my husband.
> (I'm not complaining about it, btw! )
> 
> I was wondering if anyone else has had an experience like that?
> ...


Gotcha, I thought you meant your sex therapist was looking to get some action :wink2:


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

jld said:


> So her sexual pursuit is your prime indicator of her love for you?
> 
> I am not questioning the veracity of that, btw. But it is hard for me to wrap my head around that.
> 
> Are there no other ways for you to feel cared for and respected by your wife? Again, just trying to understand.


No, not exactly. Of course there are other ways of feeling cared and respected by my wife. It's nice when she gets me some beers or cooks my favourite meal. That stuff is great.

And it's not even about sexual pursuit - I don't need her to rape me every evening, it was more of a "it is nice" kind of thing. I still do 95% of the initiating. And I am not annoyed if she doesn't want to, as long as we do have sex regularly (2-3 times a week is fine for me ).

Being turned down consistently with no good explanation or willingness to talk about it is a big issue for me. It's a red flag - and in my case I was right to see it as such.


----------



## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

jld said:


> Does that not affect your attraction to him?
> 
> Not that it should. It is just that it would for me. But that is the beauty of the world, that we are all different.


The attraction is increasing!  
I don't think it affects masculine ways of Mr A, if anything it increases the alpha. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Vega said:


> Good Guy said:
> 
> 
> > LOL! $200? * ONLY *$200? That might get you about 20 minutes worth and when you're time is up, she is gone, whether you orgasm or not. If you want her to stay, you'll have to show her the money...
> ...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Good Guy said:


> I'm not suggesting there is a problem with you and Dug
> 
> If I may ask, what % of time (roughly) would you reject his advances?


Pretty rarely. My husband is not naturally affectionate or attentive. Sex has always been the one sure way I could get a few moments of his focused attention and affection. 

It is not like I never initiate, either. But it is certainly not expected. 



> Also the dominant thing is a good point - I have become more dominant in our relationship and it has helped a lot. Before I was doing stuff to make my wife happy, even at my own expense. That was not the way to go. Men are brainwashed to be submissive and in touch with their feminine side though.


I think they are brainwashed into believing in "equal marriage." They feel entitled to certain things from their wives, because of "equality," instead of inspiring them.

I don't think equal marriage is sexy. I think dominance in men, as I see dominance, anyway, is sexy.

There was a declared male submissive on here a few years ago. He said that many people think that dominance means getting what you want. He said it actually means taking responsibility for the other person. 

I really wish he had stuck around. He had some interesting things to say.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> Ok then,
> Let's look at this from a purely business perspective.
> 
> Obviously that's a big number. However, there are more ways than one to skin a cat.
> ...


Thing is, you are a wealthy man. Not every man could afford even the $2k a month that may be nothing to you.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MrsAldi said:


> The attraction is increasing!
> I don't think it affects masculine ways of Mr A, if anything it increases the alpha.


I appreciate your sharing this, MA. Could you elaborate on how the attraction is increasing?


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> Thing is, you are a wealthy man. Not every man could afford even the $2k a month that may be nothing to you.


BUT, it IS a hell of a lot cheaper than 200K a year as per example.

If only 1 in a thousand could afford 200K, perhaps 1 in a hundred could afford my idea.

All I am doing is giving hope to the common man.

Vote for me this November. Let's make America Cum Again!

UMP for President.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> @jld you will have struggles one day, hopefully TAM will help!





jld said:


> How so?


Imagine Dug gets age induced ED, and like the typical male he decides that it means that he will no longer initiate sex anymore. 

Meanwhile you are still craving the attention of him pursuing you and being dominant with his sex drive. 

Meanwhile he still wants sex, but he just can't get hard.

...

...

...

OR, do you expect him to still maintain the status quo and take viagra? Cause most of the dominant guys I know don't run to the doctor right away asking for help to get an erection. They generally turn to porn and/or withdraw. 

Just say'n...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> BUT, it IS a hell of a lot cheaper than 200K a year as per example.
> 
> If only 1 in a thousand could afford 200K, perhaps 1 in a hundred could afford my idea.
> 
> ...


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

badsanta said:


> OR, do you expect him to still maintain the status quo and take viagra? Cause most of the dominant guys I know don't run to the doctor right away asking for help to get an erection. They generally turn to porn and/or withdraw.
> 
> Just say'n...



I got Viagra the second I was less than what I thought was a 101% erection. My wife thought I was crazy because she did not notice any problem.

I would think a dominant male would take it upon himself to be the very best he can be in that department.

After my THIRD oblation for atrial fibrillation I walk down the hall to see my doctor while I was attached to a rolling medication drip in my hospital gown. I walk up to him and the first thing I say is "can I start taking Viagra right away?"

This little Indian Dr. guy looks at me like I'm from another planet and says "is it an emergency?" 

A guy must have his priorities in order. I think sex to a dominant male would probably be priority #1 in his marriage.

Seeking and accepting help is NOT a sign of weakness.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Imagine Dug gets age induced ED, and like the typical male he decides that it means that he will no longer initiate sex anymore.
> 
> Meanwhile you are still craving the attention of him pursuing you and being dominant with his sex drive.
> 
> ...


He isn't going to get ED. From what I have read, men usually get that from eating animal foods. A Vegan Diet Can Help With Impotence | For Men | Living | PETA As long as he eats a largely vegan diet, he should be fine.

Even if he had some terrible accident and became paralyzed or something like that, I would still love him and feel attracted to him, badsanta. His emotional strength is what attracts me to him. Just being near him is very comforting.

And what you call a dominant guy may not be what I call a dominant guy. I don't think using porn or withdrawing is dominant behavior, for example.


----------



## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

jld said:


> I appreciate your sharing this, MA. Could you elaborate on how the attraction is increasing?


I would say the therapy is embracing the women to take control of her own orgasms but the men get the benefits as well, because well he's getting sex easier. 

But the biggest attraction with my husband is that I can feel his physical & emotional love being expressed more. 
His alpha stance is not rejected so he's more open to express his opinions (compliments to me) without him/me thinking he's looking at me like a sexual object. 

Obviously I know he didn't marry me for sex only, he proposed marriage for love. 









Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

jld said:


> Does that not affect your attraction to him?
> 
> Not that it should. It is just that it would for me. But that is the beauty of the world, that we are all different.


That's really interesting.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MrsAldi said:


> I would say the therapy is embracing the women to take control of her own orgasms but the men get the benefits as well, because well he's getting sex easier.
> 
> But the biggest attraction with my husband is that I can feel his physical & emotional love being expressed more.
> His alpha stance is not rejected so he's more open to express his opinions (compliments to me) without him/me thinking he's looking at me like a sexual object.
> ...


Thanks for sharing that, MA.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Good Guy said:


> That's really interesting.


How so?


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

jld said:


> How so?


It had never occurred to me before that something like that would be seen as unattractive.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Good Guy said:


> It had never occurred to me before that something like that would be seen as unattractive.


To me it is. Whenever I see a man engaging in what I think of as feminine behavior, or having what I see as female needs, it is a big turn off to me.

It is the differences that attract heterosexuals, no? Why would I want to be with a man who strikes me as womanly?

But again, that is just my view. Obviously not every woman sees it that way. It's a big, wide world out there, with lots of different opinions.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Good Guy said:


> I thought about this a bit and the answer is proof that my wife actually cared and respected me. Anything else other people can do for me. If I don't feel that then I feel nothing for my wife and don't know why I should be married to her. As it happens, she does come on to me now occasionally - a big improvement over before.
> 
> The other side of this is if the man advances are accepted 9 times out of 10 or even 5 / 10 then there's no big deal with "not tonight". If it's rejected 99 times out of 100 it's a very different story.


I have the answer for you.
I HATE initiating because frankly I HATE being turned down.

However, if I do initiate and I am turned down and I do get pissed off, this REALLY turns my wife off, like completely off.

You want to know what turns my wife on? Me not caring about sex. Me "acting" like I could care less if I get laid or not.

Find out what frequency is good for her and compare it to what you want. If she wants once a week and you want three times a week, split the difference and agree to twice a week. 

Tell her that you will have sex on Tuesdays and Fridays only. You will not initiate sex on other days AT ALL. You will not talk about sex AT ALL. In fact, you won't even talk about it on Tuesdays or Fridays. That is exactly what I do. Unless my penis falls off, I get in the shower and proceed. She's never let me down since.

I've been doing this for about a year and it's friggen wonderful.

BTW it's Tuesday


----------



## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

jld, I'm pretty sure dug has you snowed. I believe he has the same needs and desires every other guy does, maybe not to the extent some guys, or maybe he just doesn't talk about it, but I think they're there. But somehow he read you early on figured out never to let you see this part of him and how to use that to his advantage. 

Want jld to want sex often? Don't give her enough attention outside of sex. Want her to initiate? Go a little while between sexcapades and let her need for attention do the work for you.

Either that or he's a Vulcan. Both theories are probably equally plausible.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I Don't Know said:


> jld, I'm pretty sure dug has you snowed. I believe he has the same needs and desires every other guy does, maybe not to the extent some guys, or maybe he just doesn't talk about it, but I think they're there. But somehow he read you early on figured out never to let you see this part of him and how to use that to his advantage.
> 
> Want jld to want sex often? Don't give her enough attention outside of sex. Want her to initiate? Go a little while between sexcapades and let her need for attention do the work for you.
> 
> Either that or he's a Vulcan. Both theories are probably equally plausible.


I don't know what a Vulcan is. I do know Dug, though. He is just who he is. And he is a good fit for me.


----------



## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

jld said:


> I don't know what a Vulcan is. I do know Dug, though. He is just who he is. And he is a good fit for me.


I agree. You two are a good fit.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I Don't Know said:


> I agree. You two are a good fit.


Do you know if Vulcan's ever suffer from ED???


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> I don't know what a Vulcan is. I do know Dug, though. He is just who he is. And he is a good fit for me.


Wiki:

Vulcans are a fictional extraterrestrial humanoid species in the Star Trek franchise who originate from the planet Vulcan. In the various Star Trek television series and movies, they are noted for their attempt to live by logic and reason with no interference from emotion.


----------



## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Do you know if Vulcan's ever suffer from ED???


No, they don't. They're too damned manly for that!


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Good Guy said:


> Yeah but who thinks like this ... he still wants sex, so he's going to get it somewhere else - doesn't matter who provides it ! That's why it doesn't bother him. Don't you see this? Maybe you do and like it that way.


Plenty of men think like this, and I am guessing they do not post on Internet discussion boards complaining about the lack of sex. They get plenty, even if they get shot down plenty, because they ask often and don't pout when they get shot down. Since they don't pout, their wives do not think of them as an unattractive man-child, so they guy has a better success rate than the typical "nice guy".

All a matter of perception. BS thinks to himself "I only get sex once every three days, and even on those days I have to initiate and do all the work." Other guys think "hey, today is day 3, time to hit the wife up for some sex." BS is insulted his wife does not initiate. Some guys would be insulted if his wife DID initiate, because that means he wasn't providing her with enough sex.


----------



## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

EllisRedding said:


> Do you know if Vulcan's ever suffer from ED???


Are you like Mr. Spock? Low testosterone may be why - Health - Men's health | NBC News


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I Don't Know said:


> I agree. You two are a good fit.


Thanks. We really are. We are really lucky we found each other.

I needed someone I could look up to, someone I could not help genuinely respecting and admiring, and who would not be intimidated by me. Dug fits the bill.

For his part, Dug needed someone expressive who could teach him how to be more communicative. He said it would be boring to be married to someone just like himself.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> Wiki:
> 
> Vulcans are a fictional extraterrestrial humanoid species in the Star Trek franchise who originate from the planet Vulcan. In the various Star Trek television series and movies, they are noted for their attempt to live by logic and reason with no interference from emotion.


Oh, he has emotions. He is human. But his T is much stronger than his F, that's for sure.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I Don't Know said:


> No, they don't. They're too damned manly for that!


It's the vegetarian diet. 

Isn't that in the Wiki, @UMP? I just looked it up, too.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Good Guy said:


> Also the dominant thing is a good point - I have become more dominant in our relationship and it has helped a lot. Before I was doing stuff to make my wife happy, even at my own expense. That was not the way to go. Men are brainwashed to be submissive and in touch with their feminine side though.


No, sorry, that cannot possibly be true. If that were true, then there might be some sliver of truth to the basic principles of red pill. And we have another thread going in another section with over 1000 posts, and the women have convinced us that there is absolutely no value or truth or effectiveness in red pill principles. So your experience must not have occurred.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Plenty of men think like this, and I am guessing they do not post on Internet discussion boards complaining about the lack of sex.


No kidding! Dug and I had no idea so many marriages were sexless before reading TAM. We had no idea all the other very serious problems people were having in their marriages, either. It has been eye-opening.



> They get plenty, even if they get shot down plenty, because they ask often and don't pout when they get shot down. Since they don't pout, their wives do not think of them as an unattractive man-child, so they guy has a better success rate than the typical "nice guy".


Makes sense. I don't know how a wife can stand being in the same room with a pouty man, much less have sex with him. What a turn off.



> All a matter of perception. BS thinks to himself "I only get sex once every three days, and even on those days I have to initiate and do all the work." Other guys think "hey, today is day 3, time to hit the wife up for some sex." BS is insulted his wife does not initiate. Some guys would be insulted if his wife DID initiate, because that means he wasn't providing her with enough sex.


Dug is not insulted if I initiate. I am sure he is delighted! 

But it is in no way expected, anymore than I am expected to bring any income into our household. To him, that's his job.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

jld said:


> So her sexual pursuit is your prime indicator of her love for you?


Yes, of course. Many many men feel this way. Not all. But many.



jld said:


> I am not questioning the veracity of that, btw. But it is hard for me to wrap my head around that.


Welcome to life as a man.



jld said:


> Are there no other ways for you to feel cared for and respected by your wife?


In the absence of sex? No. Full stop. Assuming wife does not have a medical condition that precludes sex, voluntary refusal to consent to sex is orders of magnitude more important than anything else. so if sex is absent, she hasn't put the ante in the pot and she doesn't get to play this hand of "how can I help my husband feel loved". If sex is taken care of, then other things add to the feeling of being cared for and respected by my wife. So the presence of sex is not enough to guarantee that I feel loved and respected, but the absence of sex is enough to guarantee that I don't.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> Oh, he has emotions. He is human. But his T is much stronger than his F, that's for sure.


Essentially, 
All I am doing is ACTING like your husband.
Acting like I don't need sex, acting like I don't need my wifes emotional support.
It's honestly just an act.

As I said before, I wrote my wife a very emotional love letter for our 25 year anniversary. She actually got very cold afterwards.

It's just in my wifes DNA. She is simply turned off by a man who wants sex all the time. It's not like she hates sex, not by a long shot. She just hates a guy who acts like a panting dog about sex.

So, what are my options?

1. I could have a long discussion with her about my needs and desires. Been there, done that. A COMPLETE FAIL with long lasting repercussions.

2. I act like the man she wants regardless of how I really feel.


----------



## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

The biggest game changer for me is I started calling my marriage what it was, a loveless marriage and not a sex less one. Excuse me if I've posted this in here before. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, of course. Many many men feel this way. Not all. But many.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is surely true for you, Holding, but it does not sound like Dug. There must be as much variety among men as there is among women.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I've read so many threads and also received so many earfuls from my own wife that she feels that I only care about sex and not her. I definitely love my wife for who she is and yes I am guilty of wanting to enjoy sex more often than she feels comfortable giving it to me. At the same time all the threads I read about men being accused of this also claim to love their wives as a person beyond belief. So what gives!
> 
> My wife was complaining to me the other day that once again that I just wanted her for sex. I turned the tables on her and complained that she can only see me as a penis in the house that just needs sex and not for the husband that truly loves her. I told her that viewing me solely as an object that only needs sex to be happy disgusted me and that if she has not gotten the message by now that I love her as a person it is because SHE is the one guilty of seeing me as just a sex object.
> 
> ...


Getting in on this a bit late, but if she's "just a sex object", does that mean that you're "just a paycheck"?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> Essentially,
> All I am doing is ACTING like your husband.
> Acting like I don't need sex, acting like I don't need my wifes emotional support.
> It's honestly just an act.
> ...


This makes me feel so sad for you, UMP. You are such a nice and funny person in so many ways. It really would be nice if you could be with a woman who likes you just the way you are, no pretending.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Getting in on this a bit late, but if she's "just a sex object", does that mean that you're "just a paycheck"?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think she may work, too.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

jld said:


> I think she may work, too.


Fair enough.

Change that to "maintenance man", "mechanic", or whatever else may apply.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

[quote name="badsanta" post=16413738]

Imagine Dug gets age induced ED, and like the typical male he decides that it means that he will no longer initiate sex anymore. 

Meanwhile you are still craving the attention of him pursuing you and being dominant with his sex drive. 

Meanwhile he still wants sex, but he just can't get hard.[/quote]

As you well know, I'm dealing with this same issue except my H's ED is anxiety related..... 

[quote name="badsanta" post=16413738]
OR, do you expect him to still maintain the status quo and take viagra? Cause most of the dominant guys I know don't run to the doctor right away asking for help to get an erection. They generally turn to porn and/or withdraw. 

Just say'n...[/quote]

And I agree with JLD'S comment..... 



jld said:


> And what you call a dominant guy may not be what I call a dominant guy. I don't think using porn or withdrawing is dominant behavior, for example.


The dominant behavior is taking responsibility for the problem. NOT to withdraw or resort to porn. 

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Change that to "maintenance man", "mechanic", or whatever else may apply.


He won't improve his marriage through strong arming her, Gus. He may get compliance, but it is unlikely to be heartfelt.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> This makes me feel so sad for you, UMP. You are such a nice and funny person in so many ways. It really would be nice if you could be with a woman who likes you just the way you are, no pretending.


You get used to it.
In fact, I feel like I am becoming that person.

No need to feel sad for me. I do what I want because that's what I want to do. "Fake it till you make it" would be applicable here.

I look at my real self as weak. Weakness is bad, therefore, regardless of how I really am, it is in my best interest to get rid of any weakness. If that means I need to act, so be it.

If I love to eat sugar and give an excuse that "I eat sugar because that's who I really am to the core, I am who I am." It does not change the fact that I will gain weight and become repulsive to my wife.

Should I therefore accept my true self and eat sugar till it kills me?


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

UMP said:


> Essentially, All I am doing is ACTING like your husband. Acting like I don't need sex, acting like I don't need my wifes emotional support.It's honestly just an act.
> 
> As I said before, I wrote my wife a very emotional love letter for our 25 year anniversary. She actually got very cold afterwards. It's just in my wifes DNA. She is simply turned off by a man who wants sex all the time. It's not like she hates sex, not by a long shot. She just hates a guy who acts like a panting dog about sex.
> 
> ...


My wife is exactly like UMP's wife. Well, except that we have not determined whether she hates sex with everyone or just with me. I have done some incredibly romantic gestures for her birthday, our anniversary and valentine's day. Always got shot down after those. Discussed my needs and desires. She told me to pound sand. Went to MC and ST. I opened my heart and bled on the couch. She told me to pound sand.

Now I told her I will never have sex with her, and she is more supportive, more affectionate and more devoted than she has been since the day we got married. She wants me to be Dug. I am not Dug. So I pretend to be Dug. Would it be nice if I could be married to a woman who appreciates the real me? I am not convinced such a woman exists, or what deep seated personality disorder would need to be present for her to feel that way. I am certainly not willing to blow up my life in order to begin the search for what may well be a unicorn.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

UMP said:


> You get used to it. In fact, I feel like I am becoming that person. No need to feel sad for me. I do what I want because that's what I want to do. "Fake it till you make it" would be applicable here.
> 
> I look at my real self as weak. Weakness is bad, therefore, regardless of how I really am, it is in my best interest to get rid of any weakness. If that means I need to act, so be it.


Amen Brother!


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> *He isn't going to get ED.* From what I have read, men usually get that from eating animal foods. A Vegan Diet Can Help With Impotence | For Men | Living | PETA As long as he eats a largely vegan diet, he should be fine.
> 
> Even if he had some terrible accident and became paralyzed or something like that, I would still love him and feel attracted to him, badsanta. His emotional strength is what attracts me to him. Just being near him is very comforting.


OK @jld 

Sorry I called into question Dug's manhood and I will take your word at it that it would actually take a "terrible accident" for him to ever loose control over of his erections. 

In my personal opinion I feel it is much healthier to have a more humble view of your spouse and admit that no one is perfect and that we all have our flaws. If not at this very moment at some time we all falter. It is also my opinion it is our failures in life from which true emotional strength is derived. 

Would you rather fly in a plane with a pilot that has:

A) Flown in combat situations and survived over a dozen crashes.
B) Flown commercially without incident. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

@UMP
"After my THIRD oblation for atrial fibrillation I walk down the hall to see my doctor while I was attached to a rolling medication drip in my hospital gown. I walk up to him and the first thing I say is "can I start taking Viagra right away?"

This little Indian Dr. guy looks at me like I'm from another planet and says *"is it an emergency?"*


:rofl::rofl::rofl: Pure gold.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> My wife is exactly like UMP's wife. Well, except that we have not determined whether she hates sex with everyone or just with me. I have done some incredibly romantic gestures for her birthday, our anniversary and valentine's day. Always got shot down after those. Discussed my needs and desires. She told me to pound sand. Went to MC and ST. I opened my heart and bled on the couch. She told me to pound sand.
> 
> Now I told her I will never have sex with her, and she is more supportive, more affectionate and more devoted than she has been since the day we got married. She wants me to be Dug. I am not Dug. So I pretend to be Dug. Would it be nice if I could be married to a woman who appreciates the real me? I am not convinced such a woman exists, or what deep seated personality disorder would need to be present for her to feel that way. I am certainly not willing to blow up my life in order to begin the search for what may well be a unicorn.


I think it works both ways too. My wife knows I want her to be a sexy porn star in bed. I want her to worship my c*ck when she gives me a BJ. This is NOT my wifes personality. She has to fake it and try to make it.

You know what? She is getting pretty damn good at it.

Are we two fakers who come to bed and put on a show?

Maybe so. Frankly, I don't care because I really like the pudding.

I am willing to do whatever it takes to gain her* LUST *for me.
She is willing to do whatever it takes to gain my* LOVE *for her.

That's the way MY cookie crumbles.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

jld said:


> He won't improve his marriage through strong arming her, Gus. He may get compliance, but it is unlikely to be heartfelt.


LOL... what?

That's not strong-arming, that's sharing a perspective.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> LOL... what?
> 
> That's not strong-arming, that's sharing a perspective.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unfortunately, 
My wife does not want me to share any perspective.

She wants a rock, plain and simple.

Any deviation from that perceived "rock" is a negative.

Is that right? Probably not. Is it reality? Yep.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

badsanta said:


> OK @jld
> 
> Sorry I called into question Dug's manhood and I will take your word at it that it would actually take a "terrible accident" for him to ever loose control over of his erections.


I didn't think you "called into question Dug's manhood," badsanta. You were just asking a question and I answered. No harm, no foul.  If we cannot ask honest questions around here and get honest answers, how are we ever going to learn anything? 

No, Dug has never had anything resembling ED. I really do think the vegetarian diet must be the reason, considering how common ED seems among the flesh eaters on TAM. I don't think I even knew what ED was before I came here. Did not have any reason to know, I guess.



> In my personal opinion I feel it is much healthier to have a more humble view of your spouse and admit that no one is perfect and that we all have our flaws. If not at this very moment at some time we all falter. It is also my opinion it is our failures in life from which true emotional strength is derived.


There is certainly a lot of truth in that last line, badsanta. I think Dug has talked here about how he did not know how much he loved the kids and me before our son got cancer. When our son was diagnosed, and we were told how dire the situation was, he knew then that he absolutely would die for us.

So, considering what we have been through, do you see how Dug thinks some of the complaints by the men here seem kind of silly? To Dug, it's like Get on with it, already, Man.



> Would you rather fly in a plane with a pilot that has:
> 
> A) Flown in combat situations and survived over a dozen crashes.
> B) Flown commercially without incident.
> ...


Experience is a good teacher, badsanta. I think we have all just had different experiences in life. And that is why it is good to hear everyone's views on a forum.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> You get used to it.
> In fact, I feel like I am becoming that person.
> 
> No need to feel sad for me. I do what I want because that's what I want to do. "Fake it till you make it" would be applicable here.
> ...


I hear you. Rich food is not good for us, no matter how tasty.

But I think the best marriages are ones in which each person is truly themselves, and loved and accepted for themselves. Nobody is pretending, nobody is "trying." It just flows somehow. Much easier that way, imo.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

UMP said:


> Unfortunately,
> My wife does not want me to share any perspective.
> 
> She wants a rock, plain and simple.
> ...


That's fine. Be a rock.

Know what rocks do?

_They smash things._

So tell her that you'll be happy being a rock as long as you're permitted -- nay, invited! -- to _rock *HER*_.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> @UMP
> "After my THIRD oblation for atrial fibrillation I walk down the hall to see my doctor while I was attached to a rolling medication drip in my hospital gown. I walk up to him and the first thing I say is "can I start taking Viagra right away?"
> 
> This little Indian Dr. guy looks at me like I'm from another planet and says *"is it an emergency?"*
> ...


I'm sure this little Indian Dr. guy called his wife living in another country to joke about this and perhaps this phone call did not end well for said doctor.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> I hear you. Rich food is not good for us, no matter how tasty.
> 
> But I think the best marriages are ones in which each person is truly themselves, and loved and accepted for themselves. Nobody is pretending, nobody is "trying." It just flows somehow. Much easier that way, imo.


In my marriage I think that would lend itself to a most wonderful friendship. I'll take your advice when I can't get it up anymore.

Hopefully, that will only be on my very short lived death bed. :grin2:


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> My wife is exactly like UMP's wife. Well, except that we have not determined whether she hates sex with everyone or just with me. I have done some incredibly romantic gestures for her birthday, our anniversary and valentine's day. Always got shot down after those. Discussed my needs and desires. She told me to pound sand. Went to MC and ST. I opened my heart and bled on the couch. She told me to pound sand.


Wow, she must really be LD. I can't imagine what must be going on inside for her to reject you completely.

You make a lot of good posts, btw. Not sure I ever told you that.



> Now I told her I will never have sex with her, and she is more supportive, more affectionate and more devoted than she has been since the day we got married. She wants me to be Dug. I am not Dug. So I pretend to be Dug. Would it be nice if I could be married to a woman who appreciates the real me? I am not convinced such a woman exists, or what deep seated personality disorder would need to be present for her to feel that way. I am certainly not willing to blow up my life in order to begin the search for what may well be a unicorn.


But if you were free, that woman might just come along, you know?

I sure am glad I did not have to listen to what people on TAM, if it had existed then, surely would have said to me before I met Dug. They would have said a guy like Dug did not exist, that women just have to put up with men being pouty and whiny about sex, that women have to be careful with men's egos, stuff like that. I don't believe any of that.

Dug and I met living out in the middle of nowhere, renting rooms in the same house. The night we met, two weeks after he had arrived in the US from France, he told me he was going on a business trip the next day to a factory a few states away. Turns out the company he was visiting was literally across the street from my childhood home, where I had lived for 14 years, again out in the middle of nowhere! Dug says our meeting was destiny. 

Well, if you accept to stay with your wife, I wish you the best, Holding. You do seem like a nice person. I hope you and she can somehow find peace, and some kind of happiness.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

farsidejunky said:


> What was her response?


I'm lucky in that my wife does actually listen to reason (usually after 10 minutes of fuming, of course). According to her, I'm the first man in her life who's ever actually communicated with her. Once she calmed down (no, I didn't ask her to calm down! I know better!) she listened to what I had to say and ultimately agreed. It hasn't been an issue since.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> LOL... what?
> 
> That's not strong-arming, that's sharing a perspective.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you mean for him to threaten her, then I think she will take it as strong arming.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

EllisRedding said:


> @alexm post brings up an interesting question regarding initiating. I would guess everyone has a different definition of initiating, or there could easily be several different levels of initiating. Similar to Alex, my W will wear certain clothes (or better put actually, lack of clothes lol) when we go to bed knowing full well that it will "catch my attention" . In many respects this is nice to get a clear signal instead of having to solve some complicated mathematical equation about whether or not to initiate. However, if every time this occurs it is still on me to take it to the next level, it does lose its appeal b/c ultimately it still falls on me to get things started.


I figure my wife's reason for doing it this way is that she's never HAD to initiate sex before, therefore she doesn't actually know how to. As she is responsive desire, it's not something she feels she has to go out and get (and she says she never has prior to me, either).


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> I think it works both ways too. My wife knows I want her to be a sexy porn star in bed. I want her to worship my c*ck when she gives me a BJ. This is NOT my wifes personality. She has to fake it and try to make it.
> 
> You know what? She is getting pretty damn good at it.
> 
> ...


Ok. Last time I will say it: I really wish you two could just be yourselves with each other!


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

jld said:


> If you mean for him to threaten her, then I think she will take it as strong arming.


What? Are you serious? 

How did you read a threat into that?

You get that hearing anything other than "Yes, Dear" isn't a reason to pull out the victim card, right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> That's fine. Be a rock.
> 
> Know what rocks do?
> 
> ...


I know you're joking but I'm thinking of a different sort of rock.
A rock that cannot be moved.

A rock that stands firm when things are smashed on THEM.

Big difference and is precisely why women want a ROCK.

I honestly can't blame my wife. If I were her and I were a woman I would probably want the same thing. Problem is, I am weak.

God help me.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> That's fine. Be a rock.
> 
> Know what rocks do?
> 
> ...


Rocks are steady, Gus, in the midst of a wife's emotional storms . . . That steadiness is pretty attractive, to some of us, anyway.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

UMP said:


> I know you're joking but I'm thinking of a different sort of rock.
> A rock that cannot be moved.
> 
> A rock that stands firm when things are smashed on THEM.
> ...


There's not a rock anywhere that can't be moved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> Ok. Last time I will say it: I really wish you two could just be yourselves with each other!


That will not happen.

I always remember a story a poster told on this board about his divorced grandfather who was on his death bed. His ex wife came to say goodbye. As soon as he knew she was walking in the room he raised himself up and puffed up his chest even though he was soon to be dead.

If my wife knew all the insecurities bouncing around in my head, she would pack her bags and run.:laugh:


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> In my marriage I think that would lend itself to a most wonderful friendship. I'll take your advice when I can't get it up anymore.
> 
> Hopefully, that will only be on my very short lived death bed. :grin2:


 You always make me laugh, UMP! You and badsanta! 

It's funny you mention friendship. A mom from the cycling club Dug and our kids belong to called me a few weeks ago and mentioned that she really admires the friendship Dug and I have. It's something she really would like with her own husband. 

But her husband is not emotionally steady. And that puts stress on her to be. Because someone in the marriage has to be, you know?

She said she was his rock for years. She had to be.

But the last few she has just given up. She's burnt out. 

I didn't know what to say. Would you?

To me, it is really on him. If he cannot be what she needs, what the family needs, really, she and the kids are going to have to carry him somehow. And that looks like an awfully heavy load.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

jld said:


> Rocks are steady, Gus, in the midst of a wife's emotional storms . . . That steadiness is pretty attractive, to some of us, anyway.


Know what I do when my wife has a fit? I laugh, mostly because it's just adorable.

Anything more than that gets anything from a Gus-sized bear hug (probably followed by cuddling) or a polite invitation to calm the f*ck down.

Still, if my wife were subjecting me to "emotional storms" on a regular basis, I'd probably replace her w/ a wife that wasn't a 13-year-old girl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> What? Are you serious?
> 
> How did you read a threat into that?
> 
> ...


You may not see it the same way she may, Gus.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> I know you're joking but I'm thinking of a different sort of rock.
> A rock that cannot be moved.
> 
> A rock that stands firm when things are smashed on THEM.
> ...


We are all weak in our own ways, UMP. Dug, too. 

Emotional steadiness in a man really is attractive, though. No denying that, at least for me.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> There's not a rock anywhere that can't be moved.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"What? Over? Did you say 'over'? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!...

It ain't over now, 'cause when the goin' gets tough, the tough get goin'. Who's with me? Let's go! Come on!...

What the f--k happened to the Delta I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? This could be the greatest night of our lives, but you're gonna let it be the worst. 'Ooh, we're afraid to go with you, Bluto, we might get in trouble.' Well, just kiss my ass from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Wormer, he's a dead man! Marmalard, dead! Niedermeyer...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> That will not happen.
> 
> I always remember a story a poster told on this board about his divorced grandfather who was on his death bed. His ex wife came to say goodbye. As soon as he knew she was walking in the room he raised himself up and puffed up his chest even though he was soon to be dead.
> 
> If my wife knew all the insecurities bouncing around in my head, she would pack her bags and run.:laugh:


Or she might love you, anyway.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> We are all weak in our own ways, UMP. Dug, too.
> 
> *Emotional steadiness in a man really is attractive*, though. No denying that, at least for me.


Which is why I can NEVER give up.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

UMP said:


> "What? Over? Did you say 'over'? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!...
> 
> It ain't over now, 'cause when the goin' gets tough, the tough get goin'. Who's with me? Let's go! Come on!...
> 
> What the f--k happened to the Delta I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? This could be the greatest night of our lives, but you're gonna let it be the worst. 'Ooh, we're afraid to go with you, Bluto, we might get in trouble.' Well, just kiss my ass from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Wormer, he's a dead man! Marmalard, dead! Niedermeyer...


I get the reference, but don't get how (you think) it applies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> Or she might love you, anyway.


Sure she would, and what of little ump? What's going to happen to him?

He'll be left limp and wrinkly with no place to burry his head.

Steady the course, little ump must find his way!


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> Which is why I can NEVER give up.


I wish you would put the same dedication into your diet that you put into your sex life, UMP. Then you could have a great sex life -- _sans _those little blue pills!


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> I get the reference, but don't get how (you think) it applies.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I MUST become the best, strongest, most steadfast rock I can be, even if someone can move me.

It was a motivational speech, albeit a bit cheeky.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

alexm said:


> I figure my wife's reason for doing it this way is that she's never HAD to initiate sex before, therefore she doesn't actually know how to. As she is responsive desire, it's not something she feels she has to go out and get (and she says she never has prior to me, either).


My W doesn't initiate as much anymore as she used to, and a big part is she is usually tired and it is somewhat late by the time we get the kids settled in. So it isn't so much she doesn't want to have sex (that has never been an issue) but as you mention, she has become more of the responsive desire type due to our circumstances. If we had an empty house things would be different (similar to when we go away alone, she has no issues starting things up). I understand that and have no issues picking up the slack as I initiate a significant portion of the time, no biggie. There are times though where it would be nice to have sex with my W, but I am tired (long day, work, etc...) or don't want to psycho analyze if it is a good time to start something, so in cases like that my W initiating (no dropping hints or asking if I want to have sex, just get right to it) would be welcomed. Has nothing to do with emotional dependency or manly/feminine qualities lol.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> Sure she would, and what of little ump? What's going to happen to him?
> 
> He'll be left limp and wrinkly with no place to burry his head.
> 
> Steady the course, little ump must find his way!


 Very cute, UMP!


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> My W doesn't initiate as much anymore as she used to, and a big part is she is usually tired and it is somewhat late by the time we get the kids settled in. So it isn't so much she doesn't want to have sex (that has never been an issue) but as you mention, she has become more of the responsive desire type due to our circumstances. If we had an empty house things would be different (similar to when we go away alone, she has no issues starting things up). I understand that and have no issues picking up the slack as I initiate a significant portion of the time, no biggie. There are times though where it would be nice to have sex with my W, but I am tired (long day, work, etc...) or don't want to psycho analyze if it is a good time to start something, so in cases like that my W initiating (no dropping hints or asking if I want to have sex, just get right to it) would be welcomed. Has nothing to do with emotional dependency or manly/feminine qualities lol.


Do it in the morning, when you are both fresh.

For years when we had little ones, we mostly had sex in the early morning. It was about the only time we could be assured of not being interrupted.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> I wish you would put the same dedication into your diet that you put into your sex life, UMP. Then you could have a great sex life -- _sans _those little blue pills!


EVEN if I became a vegan, even if I had the best penis diet on planet earth I would STILL take Viagra.

Why? Because it gives me wings. It gives me that little something extra. 

Why eat hot apple pie without the vanilla ice cream?

That would be insanity.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> EVEN if I became a vegan, even if I had* the best penis diet *on planet earth I would STILL take Viagra.
> 
> Why? Because it gives me wings. It gives me that little something extra.
> 
> ...


I like the bolded. Might be a way to advertise the vegan diet!


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> Do it in the morning, when you are both fresh.
> 
> For years when we had little ones, we mostly had sex in the early morning. It was about the only time we could be assured of not being interrupted.


That is one of the compromises we have made where possible (I typically leave the house at 5am most days during the week, so on those days it is not reasonable to expect). Still requires me to do 100% of the initiating, I am fine with taking on most of it, but it is not like I wake up every morning with an urge to have sex, which is where some initiating on her part would help to keep things moving and reduce long streaks.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> That is one of the compromises we have made where possible (I typically leave the house at 5am most days during the week, so on those days it is not reasonable to expect). Still requires me to do 100% of the initiating, I am fine with taking on most of it, but it is not like I wake up every morning with an urge to have sex, which is where some initiating on her part would help to keep things moving and reduce long streaks.


Have you been direct with her on your desire for her to initiate? Said it very clearly, as in I want you to initiate every Thursday at 4:05 am?

I know, sounds forced, but at least it is clear.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

jld said:


> Or she might love you, anyway.


If I buy a Powerball ticket, I MIGHT win. But it isn't bloody likely. The fact that the payoff would be huge does not mean that the expected value of pursuing that course is positive.
@jld, @UMP and I tried showing our true selves to our wives. They laughed in our face and told us to go find someone who cared to listen to our worries. Oh, and go talk to the hand, because you aren't getting anywhere near my body. For whatever reason, we stayed married to our wives. At this point, we know our wives are not going to love us if we show weakness. So we can either pretend to be rocks, be constantly humiliated, or divorce. Might not be what we prefer, but it is reality.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> If I buy a Powerball ticket, I MIGHT win. But it isn't bloody likely. The fact that the payoff would be huge does not mean that the expected value of pursuing that course is positive.
> 
> @jld, @UMP and I tried showing our true selves to our wives. They laughed in our face and told us to go find someone who cared to listen to our worries. Oh, and go talk to the hand, because you aren't getting anywhere near my body. For whatever reason, we stayed married to our wives. At this point, we know our wives are not going to love us if we show weakness. So we can either pretend to be rocks, be constantly humiliated, or divorce. Might not be what we prefer, but it is reality.


It sounds like UMP's wife is pretending with him, too, though, Holding. Though, he is having sex, and is basically happy with his life, even with that pretending going on.

I am sorry things do not seem very hopeful for you right now, Holding. I am not sure what to say to encourage you. Just keep on keeping on, I guess. Sorry not to be able to think of anything better.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I've read so many threads and also received so many earfuls from my own wife that she feels that I only care about sex and not her. I definitely love my wife for who she is and yes I am guilty of wanting to enjoy sex more often than she feels comfortable giving it to me. At the same time all the threads I read about men being accused of this also claim to love their wives as a person beyond belief. So what gives!



Usually when I start threads it is out of frustration and I end up learning something. If not from TAM, but also in having discussions with my wife. 

I honestly think the underlying cause of this is a failure to understand that your partner's sexuality can work much differently than your own. For example my wife knows I have no qualms about enjoying my self exploration, meanwhile self exploration for her is something that is unsatisfying and rather emotionally unsettling for her. 

"Come as You Are" describes human sexuality as a dual system in all individuals. One system accelerates arousal while a secondary system inhibits arousal. Both systems serve their purposes. Each system's modus operandi is also different from individual to individual. *PROBLEMS occur when two people compare their systems of sexuality and make assumptions that just because something is different that it must be caused by a problem when in actuality everything is perfectly normal. *

For example I can be violently ill with the flu, running a fever, and I'll know that this scenario is not a good time for sex for me or my wife as I don't want to get her sick. But from experience I also know that if I can manage to get aroused and masturbate that it will help me feel much better AND I'll finally get some sleep. Meanwhile the idea of masturbation under these circumstances is incomprehensible to my wife, so she will probably get disturbed and google it to see if I am normal and end up here and think I have enduced “post-orgasmic illness syndrome” (POIS):

How the Orgasm Flu Kills Your Sex Life

At the same time I used to google the differences in her sexuality thinking she is completely grossed out by her own genitals. Heaven forbid she have to insert fingers into her own vagina for a medical reason such as to check her cervical mucus. In reality being a guy, I lack understanding at how doing something of that nature in a nonsexual context will often result in cramps. So I end up googling and end up here buy her a mirror and insisting she masturbate while using it:

Exploring and Becoming Familiar with your Vulva

The end result of BOTH of our misunderstandings is for her to assume I only ever think about sex.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

jld said:


> It sounds like UMP's wife is pretending with him, too, though, Holding. Though, he is having sex, and is basically happy with his life, even with that pretending going on.


So what? UMP likes the results of both pretending more than he liked the results when both were being themselves. I know you do not like pretending and want everyone to be themselves, but some of us don't want to endure the transition costs of moving to a partner who would appreciate the real us.



> I am sorry things do not seem very hopeful for you right now, Holding. I am not sure what to say to encourage you.


This isn't a "right now" problem. I have been unhappily married since day 1. Took me 5 years to do more than voice complaint. Insisted on MC, then ST. We went for 8 years. Nothing changed. That ended 11 years ago. This isn't temporary. This is actually the best that things have ever been. She is more affectionate and gives me more compliments and seems to appreciate me more than she did before the kids were born. Our marriage has not gone steadily or dramatically downhill from a good place. Our marriage has actually attained newfound heights since I swore off sex. I am not going back to having a sexual relationship with my wife. Our marriage was far far worse when I tried to have that. We do not have a "it was good before _____" to go back to. I think we do have a "it will get better and better" to look forward to. As long as I stay strong and refuse to have sex with her. I don't think I will have any problem sticking to my guns on this. The payoff isn't worth the risk. See the great thing about being underhung and lousy in bed is that giving up sex isn't giving up all that much. :surprise::grin2:


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

badsanta said:


> How the Orgasm Flu Kills Your Sex Life


Oh, my gosh, badsanta, that is terrible! I did not even know it existed! Those poor men!


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> This isn't a "right now" problem. I have been unhappily married since day 1. Took me 5 years to do more than voice complaint. Insisted on MC, then ST. We went for 8 years. Nothing changed. That ended 11 years ago. This isn't temporary. This is actually the best that things have ever been. She is more affectionate and gives me more compliments and seems to appreciate me more than she did before the kids were born. Our marriage has not gone steadily or dramatically downhill from a good place. *Our marriage has actually attained newfound heights since I swore off sex. * I am not going back to having a sexual relationship with my wife. Our marriage was far far worse when I tried to have that. We do not have a "it was good before _____" to go back to. *I think we do have a "it will get better and better" to look forward to.* As long as I stay strong and refuse to have sex with her. I don't think I will have any problem sticking to my guns on this. The payoff isn't worth the risk. See the great thing about being underhung and lousy in bed is that giving up sex isn't giving up all that much. :surprise::grin2:


I've been reading more stories online lately about couples who have opted for the route that you're taking. Virtually all of them (again, especially men) have reported a much, MUCH *deeper*/higher/richer level of emotional intimacy _without_ the constant pressure of sex always being 'on the table'. 

In some cases, the couple has remained sexless, but happier than ever for several _decades_. In other cases, the couple resumed having sex, sans the frantic gotta-have-it-now-or-I'll-DIE approach. They don't have sex as frequently, but when they do have it, the _quality_ has improved 100-fold. 

Granted, that the decision to do this wasn't made out of hate, disgust, hopelessness or anger. It was a _joint_ decision and sought as an alternative to something that just wasn't working. 

It seems to be that most people believe that they can either have sex or masturbate. Yet, there is a third option, which is to do nothing (sexually). 

It may not be easy at first, but I understand that the rewards can surpass their expectations.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> Oh, my gosh, badsanta, that is terrible! I did not even know it existed! Those poor men!


When I got to the point in the article claiming the doctors would "inject" these men with semen to help cure them, I almost fell out of my chair!

Talk about insult to injury!


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

UMP said:


> Vega said:
> 
> 
> > Ok then,
> ...


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

badsanta said:


> OK @jld
> 
> Sorry I called into question Dug's manhood and I will take your word at it that it would actually take a "terrible accident" for him to ever loose control over of his erections.
> 
> ...


Is the plane going into combat? >


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

tech-novelist said:


> Is the plane going into combat? >


Also, was he actually shot down or did he just crash his plane over a dozen times?

>
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

tech-novelist said:


> Is the plane going into combat? >





As'laDain said:


> Also, was he actually shot down or did he just crash his plane over a dozen times?
> 
> >


----------



## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

Vega said:


> When you _married_ her, you expected sex...
> 
> ...didn't you...?



Why is that bad? I mean, if sex is not supposed to be part of the package, he may as well have married another dude.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> Have you been direct with her on your desire for her to initiate? Said it very clearly, as in I want you to initiate every Thursday at 4:05 am?
> 
> I know, sounds forced, but at least it is clear.


I think this approach can work for some people, while others (like me) have little to no interest in it, as a solution.

For me, the issue is one of wanting our partners to desire us, on their own, without having to be told.

Now, every relationship that suffers from this issue is different. I believe my wife DOES desire me, sexually, yet has some major mental blocks that prevent her from acting upon them. For example, my wife is afraid of appearing weak (aren't we all?), and especially as a weak _woman_. A home-maker and house-wife she is not. Completely at odds with this is her fear of being a domineering, naggy wife.

Both of those factors play into her inability to express herself sexually. Requiring sexual intimacy, and asking for it, is a weakness to her, I'm sure. Like many other things in life, she'll shrug it off and convince herself she doesn't need it. When somebody (me, for example) does something for her, she feels the need to reciprocate at some point down the road, to even the score. She doesn't want to feel like she owes anybody anything.

Therefore, initiating sex for her likely includes a thought pattern of "I'll owe him one" - something she's reluctant to do, at least sexually. If she comes to me with a need, then she's thinking ahead to when I come to her with a need. And it's not just about sex, either.

Case in point - she loves receiving oral sex. The times she's 'allowed' me to give her oral sex only, unreciprocated, she's felt she's had to return the favor somehow. No matter how much I tell her it's not necessary. It's not tit-for-tat. I enjoy doing it, and am willing to do it. There have been a few times where that's all I wanted to do, so I did it. She assumed it was either foreplay or that she'd be returning the favor, and I've walked away, or kissed her good night and rolled over when she was done. She'll say "what about you?". I'll tell her I'm good, that's all I wanted to do, and she will not understand that. Does not compute. And it almost angers her, like she can't bear the thought of somebody doing something one-sided for her.

I think it stems from her own self-esteem, in which she believes she's not worthy of receiving anything (gift, favor, help, sex, whatever). And this includes initiating sex, as it would show that she actually has a need.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Wolfman1968 said:


> Why is that bad? I mean, if sex is not supposed to be part of the package, he may as well have married another dude.



Exactly what I've been thinking as I read this thread.

All you think about or want is sex. Yes. And..... Do you think that just because I want sex all the time doesn't mean other things in my life aren't also important? Do you think that I only want you in my life because I want you for sex? That I put up with kids and your other demands and desires so that I will get sex?

I don't think anyone should waste time and energy trying to rationalize WHY they want sex. Just as no one should have to rationalize why they want food several times a day, or coffe every morning, or appropriate clothing to wear, or a home to live in.

Why does sex have to have its very own set of parameters that make it justifiable?

I remember having this conversation about 2 years into my marriage and I remember asking my husband why he wanted sex all the time. He said "sex is fun, what's wrong with wanting sex?" It was that answer that made me consider why? Why didn't I see sex the way he did? Why didn't I think sex was fun? It took many years to be able to answer my own questions but answer them I did. I didn't see sex the same way he did because I felt unappreciated and used. I didn't see sex as fun because of several other issues one being I didn't orgasm.

Own that sex is what you want because there is nothing wrong with wanting sex. What is wrong is wanting a reason to justify wanting sex.

Do we have to justify wanting our back scratched? No but we all know how great it feels to have our backs scratched and how loved we feel when our partner scratches our backs whether by us prompting or or not.

Why do we need special justifications for wanting sex?


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> Have you been direct with her on your desire for her to initiate? Said it very clearly, as in I want you to initiate every Thursday at 4:05 am?
> 
> I know, sounds forced, but at least it is clear.


Sorry, missed your post until Alex just responded to it.

Who wants to have sex at 4am, I sure don't lol. There are days when I need to be in at work at 4:30am. Other days when I go into work later (7am) I will go to the gym first at 5am (and having sex before this would be counterproductive  ). The days where I don't need to be up as early are the days I have been initiating in the morning (pretty much started this about 2-3 weeks ago). 

Now keep in mind, I have no interest in defining a set schedule (i.e. you initiate every Thursday) nor am I sitting here saying we need to have sex a certain number of days per week. Some weeks we will be rather active, other weeks not as much. There should just be some sort of consistency and more importantly, dry spells should be minimal (this being the bigger issue in the past, where are times we would go 3-6 weeks without sex). 

As the person with the higher drive, I have no issue doing most of the initiating. However, this does not mean it is my sole responsibility to maintain this. What I am watching for now (and in part based on things in the past), what could potentially happen is that since my W knows I will initiate in the mornings where possible, she just falls back on that and makes no effort to initiate at all (i.e. we can still have sex after the kids go to bed). If that does in fact become the case, then initiating on my part becomes a lot less appealing.

It is not a gender issue, has nothing to do with manliness or feminine qualities, has nothing to do with having some sort of emotional dependency on the other. It is a balancing act between two people who have a drive mismatch.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> I remember having this conversation about 2 years into my marriage and I remember asking my husband why he wanted sex all the time. He said "sex is fun, what's wrong with wanting sex?" It was that answer that made me consider why? *Why didn't I see sex the way he did? Why didn't I think sex was fun?* *It took many years to be able to answer my own questions but answer them I did. *I didn't see sex the same way he did because I felt unappreciated and used. I didn't see sex as fun because of several other issues one being I didn't orgasm.


Thanks @Anon Pink!

If I may ask... If you had struggled with these questions because you felt unappreciated and used, what did it take to improve that aspect of your relationship? Was it something that you found within yourself to improve your self esteem, did your husband change his behavior towards you, a combination of both, or something else completely like resolving a communication issue?

I honestly think my wife may be struggling with the same questions and of course I realize that the context of those questions is not the same as it is in your marriage. If I were to try and answer why she may feel unappreciated at this moment in time, I would answer that it is because she says I am grumpy all the time.

Am I grumpy? Perhaps about something in the news or a problem I am dealing with at work and I may let it get to me. She assumes automatically I am grumpy because of her, when in reality it always puts me in a better mood to be around her unless she accuses me of being grumpy and to stay away until I am in a better mood.

Thanks any further insight,
Badsanta


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Her automatic assumption that she is the source of your grumpy attitude speaks to self-esteem problems.


----------



## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

God I hate reading about sexless marriages. Makes me not want to have a 3rd wife.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

alexm said:


> For me, the issue is one of wanting our partners to desire us, on their own, without having to be told.


In response to this, seriously, why is it so wrong to want to be desired??? It appears per JLD that a guy wanting to be desired by his W is a feminine quality, or only females are allowed to want this 

I know there have been times where I ravaged my W, and her big turn on with this was how great it felt to be desired. This is a natural human emotion, not a female emotion or a male emotion. She didn't ask me to desire her, I just did AND acted on it. However, it appears to get spun around when a guy says this with the whole "So this is the only way for you to feel desire from her" line. Let's say it is a big way you feel desired, so what, who is to say what is the right or wrong way to be desired, especially what is right or wrong based on your gender


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Herschel said:


> God I hate reading about sexless marriages. Makes me not want to have a 3rd wife.


The safer bet would just be to get some Roy Rogers fried chicken on the Turnpike (oh man do I miss Roy Rogers  )


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Thanks @Anon Pink!
> 
> If I may ask... If you had struggled with these questions because you felt unappreciated and used, what did it take to improve that aspect of your relationship? Was it something that you found within yourself to improve your self esteem, did your husband change his behavior towards you, a combination of both, or something else completely like resolving a communication issue?


Both. 

At the time, just 2 years into marriage, when he wasn't working he was a bump on the couch watching TV and snoozing. Anything we did together was a family obligation. We did not spend any time alone and we had almost no social life together, rarely wint out and anything we did was by my arrangements. IOW, if I hadn't told him what our plans were, he was snoozing on the couch watching one sport or another. He didn't not help with the kids, or the home. Although he absolutely denies that he didn't help with the kids because once they were old enough to be involved in rec sports he coached. But that's all he did unless I told him to do something. 

Our marriage stayed like this for maybe 20 years until the first time I asked for a divorce.

Our sex life improved once I started to learn how to improve it. It sure as hell wasn't because he did anything different!!!! I had baggage to unload and once I started on that journey our sex life got better and better and better. Again, my doing.





> I honestly think my wife may be struggling with the same questions and of course I realize that the context of those questions is not the same as it is in your marriage. If I were to try and answer why she may feel unappreciated at this moment in time, I would answer that it is because she says I am grumpy all the time.
> 
> Am I grumpy? Perhaps about something in the news or a problem I am dealing with at work and I may let it get to me. She assumes automatically I am grumpy because of her, when in reality it always puts me in a better mood to be around her unless she accuses me of being grumpy and to stay away until I am in a better mood.
> 
> ...



Do you recognize when you are grumpy or do you need to have someone point it out to you?

Best scenario is to text her before you leave work telling her your grumpy because...and you need to wrap your arms around her and just breath her in for a minute or two and then you will not be grumpy but will be in a much better mood. 

Make sure you warp your arms around her from behind her, not frant to front. When you come from behind, it gives her a feeling of being engulfed in a good way. (Don't forget to kiss her neck a very times.) It puts you in a dominant position. If you go front to front she might begin to feel like your mommy hugging you to make you feel all better. This makes HER the one responsible for making you better and this is NOT the way to go.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

alexm said:


> For me, the issue is one of wanting our partners to desire us, on their own, without having to be told.


Indeed. And that's part of what dating is about: determining compatibility. Sometimes there will be a disconnect or bait and switch scenario once you're married (my ex clearly did this), but then you can spend a little time fixing it and divorce if it doesn't. There is seldom anyone forcing you to stay in an unsatisfying or dysfunctional relationship, other than yourself.

Dating someone for even a short time usually reveals their attitudes. I can't remember how many budding relationships I ended due to some form of incompatibility, including lack of initiation of sex.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Herschel said:


> God I hate reading about sexless marriages. Makes me not want to have a 3rd wife.


Simultaneously or one at a time?


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Do you recognize when you are grumpy or do you need to have someone point it out to you?


I'll admit that my wife AND kids will accuse me of being grumpy at times I feel perfectly normal. My son that is in elementary school will describe my look at this time as if I were suffering from constipation and perhaps laugh. Now there are times I admit something might be bothering me, but I do get accused of looking grumpy when I feel fine.

I don't think they are projecting as the wife and kids will vote unanimously that I look grumpy.

Badsanta


----------



## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

tech-novelist said:


> Simultaneously or one at a time?


Either.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

badsanta said:


> I'll admit that my wife AND kids will accuse me of being grumpy at times I feel perfectly normal. My son that is in elementary school will describe my look at this time as if I were suffering from constipation and perhaps laugh. Now there are times I admit something might be bothering me, but I do get accused of looking grumpy when I feel fine.
> 
> I don't think they are projecting as the wife and kids will vote unanimously that I look grumpy.
> 
> Badsanta


Do you possibly suffer from RBF (Resting B!tch Face)?


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

badsanta said:


> I'll admit that my wife AND kids will accuse me of being grumpy at times I feel perfectly normal. My son that is in elementary school will describe my look at this time as if I were suffering from constipation and perhaps laugh. Now there are times I admit something might be bothering me, but I do get accused of looking grumpy when I feel fine.
> 
> I don't think they are projecting as the wife and kids will vote unanimously that I look grumpy.
> 
> Badsanta


In that case I diagnose you as having a resting b!tch face. Be aware of your facial expression when you are in neutral mode. Try to make a smile (or some semblance of) a more consistent part of your interactions with your family.


----------



## Meanstreak (Aug 31, 2016)

Vega said:


> Do you really believe that society/church/parents and friends are where women get the idea that the only thing that men want is sex?
> 
> Women get that idea _from the men themselves_
> 
> ...


Wow, is all I can say. That was such a stereotype, it's sickening. He just spent several paragraphs talking about how he treats his wife and it isn't all about sex. It is so frustrating to be in that situation as it is, and then to go on a board and ask for help, only to have someone say that to them. It's counter productive IMHO. 

BadSanta, I would say maybe try giving her what she wants. Don't hug or kiss or buy her flowers, and so on, for a specific amount of time. (one week, two weeks, etc). If she questions you, come up with a response that is not passive aggressive, angry, or anything else. "Honey, I felt like I was being second guessed on everything I was doing, and thought I might have been putting out the wrong vibe. So I decided to not put you in that position anymore..." Something to that effect, and see what happens. Hopefully that will be what she needs to stay the conversation and both of you handling this like adults. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> In that case I diagnose you as having a resting b!tch face. Be aware of your facial expression when you are in neutral mode. Try to make a smile (or some semblance of) a more consistent part of your interactions with your family.


I'm actually working on that!

Or if I am in a bad mood, I try to explain why so that the wife and kids do not think I am upset with them. 

Perhaps my resting face does look rather like grumpy cat:


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

You know.... A grumpy man isn't sexy, doesn't inspire desire or arousal. A grumpy man requires the wife and kids to be on alert, to be cautious, to do things to sooth and appease you. If this happens often enough, and everyone's enough is different, you've lost your sex appeal to your wife. The good news is that you can get it back with some attention to how she receives you. But once you've lost your sex appeal, and gotten it back, she will be hyper sensitive to your grumpiness.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> You know.... A grumpy man isn't sexy, doesn't inspire desire or arousal. A grumpy man requires the wife and kids to be on alert, to be cautious, to do things to sooth and appease you. If this happens often enough, and everyone's enough is different, you've lost your sex appeal to your wife. The good news is that you can get it back with some attention to how she receives you. But once you've lost your sex appeal, and gotten it back, she will be hyper sensitive to your grumpiness.


He should get a mask like this to wear at home for when he is feeling grumpy (or RBF kicks in)


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Meanstreak said:


> Wow, is all I can say. That was such a stereotype, it's sickening. He just spent several paragraphs talking about how he treats his wife and it isn't all about sex. It is so frustrating to be in that situation as it is, and then to go on a board and ask for help, only to have someone say that to them. It's counter productive IMHO.
> 
> BadSanta, I would say maybe try giving her what she wants. Don't hug or kiss or buy her flowers, and so on, for a specific amount of time. (one week, two weeks, etc). If she questions you, come up with a response that is not passive aggressive, angry, or anything else. "Honey, I felt like I was being second guessed on everything I was doing, and thought I might have been putting out the wrong vibe. So I decided to not put you in that position anymore..." Something to that effect, and see what happens. Hopefully that will be what she needs to stay the conversation and both of you handling this like adults.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


 @Meanstreak don't worry about @Vega hurting my feelings. She enjoys playing hardball in threads and I enjoy the debate.

I think what my wife needs from me these days is to just wipe that shîtty look off my face that she and the kids insist I have. So I am working out my smile muscles!

If it is any consolation, it appears that Japanese engineers are very in tune with me, and are about to ratchet everything in my house up a few notches as I am going to get my wife to do these with me!

Japan Trend Shop | Facial Expression Exercise Mask

> > > >

Badsanta


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> In response to this, seriously, why is it so wrong to want to be desired??? It appears per JLD that a guy wanting to be desired by his W is a feminine quality, or only females are allowed to want this
> 
> I know there have been times where I ravaged my W, and her big turn on with this was how great it felt to be desired. This is a natural human emotion, not a female emotion or a male emotion. She didn't ask me to desire her, I just did AND acted on it. However, it appears to get spun around when a guy says this with the whole "So this is the only way for you to feel desire from her" line. Let's say it is a big way you feel desired, so what, who is to say what is the right or wrong way to be desired, especially what is right or wrong based on your gender


As the song goes, "I want you to want me."
I feel exactly the same way.

However, I NEVER tell my wife this. I never have a conversation about how I NEED her to feel this way.
Basically, the realization of this desire, from both of us, happens between the sheets.

Just this past week since last Friday I did not tell my wife "I love you." I hardly touched her for 4 days, even up until we actually had sex last night. So what happened last night after no physical contact other than a peck hello and a peck goodbye for 4 days?

She basically wanted me to f%ck her brains out and did not even desire an orgasm. What she DID want was to see my unbridled passion for her. In return, I got exactly the same thing from her in the words "yes, f%ck me!)

It's the sitting down and having a long discussion about your "need" to be desired that's a turn off. Not the desire in and of itself. IMO


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Indeed. And that's part of what dating is about: determining compatibility. Sometimes there will be a disconnect or bait and switch scenario once you're married (my ex clearly did this), but then you can spend a little time fixing it and divorce if it doesn't. There is seldom anyone forcing you to stay in an unsatisfying or dysfunctional relationship, other than yourself.
> 
> Dating someone for even a short time usually reveals their attitudes. I can't remember how many budding relationships I ended due to some form of incompatibility, including lack of initiation of sex.


Sex when you're dating and sex when you're married seem to be two completely different animals

My radar always goes up when I hear about a married person in a "sexless" marriage (sexless because they're not getting as much as they want, and/or not getting the KIND of sex they want) who get's divorce, and reports that after their divorce, they're now getting as much sex as they wanted while married. 

Meanwhile, the sex in their marriage "dried up" either immediately after marriage or years into it. I keep thinking, "Yeah. Just wait until that 'threshhold'.) 

Many people report having GREAT sex before they were married. Now they're unmarried again, and having GREAT sex again. 

Makes me wonder...is it _marriage_ that's off-putting?


----------



## Meanstreak (Aug 31, 2016)

Lol, that looks like a blowjob trainer or something 😂


Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Vega said:


> *Sex when you're dating and sex when you're married seem to be two completely different animals*
> 
> My radar always goes up when I hear about a married person in a "sexless" marriage (sexless because they're not getting as much as they want, and/or not getting the KIND of sex they want) who get's divorce, and reports that after their divorce, they're now getting as much sex as they wanted while married.
> 
> ...


I would not say marriage per say. I would instead compare sex during the early stages vs sex once the relationship has matured and other factors are involved (such as children). For many of us that is typically with marriage.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Vega said:


> Many people report having GREAT sex before they were married. Now they're unmarried again, and having GREAT sex again.
> 
> Makes me wonder...is it _marriage_ that's off-putting?


Agree with this and it's been a topic of thought and exploration for me lately. Too much togetherness can be detrimental to a passionate marriage. You just get immune to the other person because they're always around! 

I think we need to redefine healthy marriage to how well do we spend time together and how well do we spend time away from each other.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Vega said:


> Many people report having GREAT sex before they were married. Now they're unmarried again, and having GREAT sex again.
> 
> Makes me wonder...is it _marriage_ that's off-putting?


No, it's just more complicated.

When you're married to the same person for a long period of time, you inevitably end up going through some life trauma together.
Life is FRIGGEN hard. It's not all peaches and cream. 

Dating a new person IS peaches and cream with no commitment. If you don't like the peaches, just throw them in the garbage and try something else.

Marriage is forever.

So, the key is adapting to the trauma in a positive way.

We have a mentally handicapped child that will live with us till the day we die. That IS trauma.
I had a heart attack that took years to recover from. That IS trauma.

During that trauma, men and women cope. Sometimes the way they cope ends up turning the other person away. You simply need to recognize this and fight the negativity..

Let me use gambling as an sex analogy. Dating would be analogous to going to a casino and getting lucky that particular night. Everything you touch spits out money and you walk home a winner. Anyone can do this. However, can you do it every day?

Marriage is also like gambling, but like investing in long term stable blue chip companies. You are not going to make a killing over night, and there will be ups and downs. However, if you stay invested and keep adding to it, never selling out, in 20 years, you could become a millionaire. 

Sexual success in a long term marriage is simply more difficult and not as flashy as short term dating. However, I like to think that if you stick with it, it's actually much more rewarding and a hell of a lot safer.:smile2:

Think of the Tortoise and the Hare.

Hare = dating, flashy, quick and fun.

Tortoise = marriage, slow, steady and not as flashy. He keeps going no matter what and most always finishes first. He wins.

Must remember this though: "you can't win unless you finish the race."


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I think we need to redefine healthy marriage to how well do we spend time together and how well do we spend time away from each other.


That would be a great idea for a thread, AP. 

Last week our three youngest left for France. I went with Dug to his city for the week. It was such a treat to see him every day after work! We went for walks and ate dinner together nearly every night.

And then, on the last night there, he told me he wanted to take me somewhere this coming weekend, when he gets back from China. I don't know that we will actually do it, but just hearing that made me feel so loved!

It is just amazing the way kids, over the years, can suck the life out of a mom. And some time away from them, with the husband, can feel like such a gift.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Vega said:


> Makes me wonder...is it _marriage_ that's off-putting?


Yes, it apparently IS that off-putting for some, IF you marry the wrong person, and/or for the wrong reasons.

My second marriage is everything I thought and wanted marriage to be - and more - and has been for 16 years. Including great sex. I was very careful the second time, because I learned from the first time.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

UMP said:


> Marriage is also like gambling, but like investing in long term stable blue chip companies. You are not going to make a killing over night, and there will be ups and downs. However, if you stay invested and keep adding to it, never selling out, in 20 years, you *could *become a millionaire.


Could. That's the qualifier that embodies all the risks. You put ALL your eggs in one marriage basket, and then watch and protect that basket zealously. Still, the eggs could go bad, or the roof could fall on them, etc. With some *luck* and a lot of care, it can work out very well.

Alas, the analogy fails. You can only have one marriage at a time, but you can have a diversified portfolio of stable blue chips that overall will perform very well over the years. Hopefully, your marriage stock isn't the equivalent of a buggy whip company in the age of automobiles.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

In my experience, if you have a sexual match and mutual sexual attraction with someone, the great sex comes easily. It doesn't prevent other issues from cropping up if there is another type of mismatch present in the relationship. But if the required ingredients are there...you can have great sex regardless of those other issues.

Without the magic ingredients, it is not a guarantee that the sex will stay fulfilling after the honeymoon period.


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> In my experience, if you have a sexual match and mutual sexual attraction with someone, the great sex comes easily. It doesn't prevent other issues from cropping up if there is another type of mismatch present in the relationship. But if the required ingredients are there...you can have great sex regardless of those other issues.
> 
> Without the magic ingredients, it is not a guarantee that the sex will stay fulfilling after the honeymoon period.


Hmmm...

This causes me to ask the question:

Does a great marriage = great sex, or does great sex = a great marriage?

I get the impression that the majority of men will answer the latter, while the majority of women will swear by the first...


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Vega said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> This causes me to ask the question:
> 
> ...


I think when you have both, the marriage and the sex are just that much sweeter.

But I think you could have a great marriage but not great sex. Or great sex but not a great marriage.

I've known couples (and I am in this category) who have divorced but who always had great sex together and never stopped wanting each other or sex with each other. Sometimes emotions made it impossible to feel the heat in a particular moment....but that momentary block of the natural mutual desire for each other didn't ever erase it.


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think when you have both, the marriage and the sex are just that much sweeter.
> 
> But I think you could have a great marriage but not great sex. Or great sex but not a great marriage.
> 
> I've known couples (and I am in this category) who have divorced but who always had great sex together and never stopped wanting each other or sex with each other. Sometimes emotions made it impossible to feel the heat in a particular moment....but that momentary block of the natural mutual desire for each other didn't ever erase it.


And I'm just the opposite. If I lose desire for my partner as a person, I lose my desire for sex with that person. I may still have a desire for sex, but NOT with 'him'. 

This past week I actually missed being in a relationship. But my biggest fear (right now) is meeting someone (when I'm ready--I'm no where near ready yet), having that strong attraction to them, having great sex with them, and discovering that even though *I* believe we're in a relationship, *he* doesn't. That fear would cause me to 'hold back' sexually. I don't mean 'hold back' in frequency, but hold back as in not letting myself go completely while engaged in the act. 

Clearly I still have some more work to do on _me_!


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Vega said:


> *And I'm just the opposite. If I lose desire for my partner as a person, I lose my desire for sex with that person*. I may still have a desire for sex, but NOT with 'him'.
> 
> This past week I actually missed being in a relationship. But my biggest fear (right now) is meeting someone (when I'm ready--I'm no where near ready yet), having that strong attraction to them, having great sex with them, and discovering that even though *I* believe we're in a relationship, *he* doesn't. That fear would cause me to 'hold back' sexually. I don't mean 'hold back' in frequency, but hold back as in not letting myself go completely while engaged in the act.
> 
> Clearly I still have some more work to do on _me_!


I don't think we are opposites on the bolded part. I never lost my desire for my ex-h as a person, no matter how much or what we argued about. We lost our tempers, but we never got past the point of desire for each other as people. I'm with you, if he did things that made me hate him or lose all respect for him or feel constant disgust in him as a person, I wouldn't want to touch him.

I hope as you keep working on yourself and get yourself ready, there's a man out there doing the same in order to meet up with you at just the right time, with both of you ready to not hold back and to truly enjoy each other sexually. Hopefully being madly in love at the same time!


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

I view the marriage as the same way I view a business. Hell, I even got married with that mindset. I knew my wife for a few weeks. I KNEW I barely knew her at all. Just like starting a business, I knew that if I didn't do a HELL of a lot of research amd take appropriate actions, my marriage would fail. 

And if I am not constantly looking for ways to make my marriage stronger, then it WILL get weaker. If I am not constantly on the lookout for any issues we might face, and making plans to deal with them, then one day we will get slammed by something we didn't see coming. 

Never stop trying to make your marriage stronger. It's like a business. If you aren't working on it, you would be lucky if it survives. It may survive without work put in towards growth, but it will never grow. 


Make sense?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> Agree with this and it's been a topic of thought and exploration for me lately. Too much togetherness can be detrimental to a passionate marriage. You just get immune to the other person because they're always around!
> 
> I think we need to redefine healthy marriage to how well do we spend time together and how well do we spend time away from each other.


Have you read anything about interdependence?


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Vega said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> This causes me to ask the question:
> 
> ...


Both.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Vega said:


> And I'm just the opposite. If I lose desire for my partner as a person, I lose my desire for sex with that person. I may still have a desire for sex, but NOT with 'him'.
> 
> This past week I actually missed being in a relationship. But my biggest fear (right now) is meeting someone (when I'm ready--I'm no where near ready yet), having that strong attraction to them, having great sex with them, and discovering that even though *I* believe we're in a relationship, *he* doesn't. That fear would cause me to 'hold back' sexually. I don't mean 'hold back' in frequency, but hold back as in not letting myself go completely while engaged in the act.
> 
> Clearly I still have some more work to do on _me_!


Your fear seems normal to me, Vega, entirely appropriate and self-protective. Why would any woman want to give herself completely if her partner did not also?


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

UMP said:


> It's the sitting down and having a long discussion about your "need" to be desired that's a turn off. Not the desire in and of itself. IMO


You're absolutely right about this, and I'm guilty of it.

For me, though, it's a last resort. I'm well aware of how I will appear once I get to the point of discussion, so I try to avoid it and go alternate routes. Thing is, those alternate routes sometimes have no effect, at least in my case. That leaves me with two choices - discuss with the wife, or drop it entirely and just live with it. There are times where I'd rather take the risk and get it out in the open than build deep resentment about something my wife has no idea about.

Bearing one's soul has a place and a time, IMO, even if it's considered 'weak' or unattractive. It's also worth noting that some women even find it somewhat attractive, a man speaking with emotion.

It's funny though, isn't it? We men are brought up to believe that women want men who actually communicate things, rather than grunt and have no emotion. The irony is that my wife now understands, somewhat, my (and men in general's) need for sexual intimacy. She still thinks we "just want sex", but now she has a deeper understanding of why, and that it's not just purely animalistic, nor that she is being used.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> You're absolutely right about this, and I'm guilty of it.
> 
> For me, though, it's a last resort. I'm well aware of how I will appear once I get to the point of discussion, so I try to avoid it and go alternate routes. Thing is, those alternate routes sometimes have no effect, at least in my case. That leaves me with two choices - discuss with the wife, or drop it entirely and just live with it. There are times where I'd rather take the risk and get it out in the open than build deep resentment about something my wife has no idea about.
> 
> ...


I don't think there is anything weak or unattractive about baring one's soul. I think it is very healthy and essential to a fulfilling relationship to be transparent with our partners. We need to know each other's feelings, whatever they may be.

What is weak and unattractive, at least to me, is, as Dug explained it once, expecting your partner _to take responsibility _for your feelings, if he or she is not comfortable with that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> I don't think there is anything weak or unattractive about baring one's soul. I think it is very healthy and essential to a fulfilling relationship to be transparent with our partners. We need to know each other's feelings, whatever they may be.
> 
> What is weak and unattractive, at least to me, is, as Dug explained it once, expecting your partner _to take responsibility _for your feelings, if he or she is not comfortable with that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see what you're saying.

But when one person is sexually unfulfilled because of another's reluctance or complacency or barriers, then how is one supposed to take responsibility for _their_ actions?

For example, my sex life with my wife dwindled over time (and it still needs work). Where we were once having sex 2, 3, 4, 5 times a week - _without thought_ (that's important), it is now once a week, usually on the same day, planned without being planned, if you know what I mean. Where once it was spontaneous and free and "just happened", it is now a "thing".

I spent years working on this - on my own. Trying to rekindle that spontaneity, that freedom. For me, it wasn't (and still isn't) about the frequency so much as it is has now become a planned event. Where most relationships have a sexual honeymoon period of ~6 months or so, ours kept going for about 2 years. Then almost overnight, it turned into what it is now.

It got to the point where I had no choice but to speak up about my needs and wants. The actual sex has always been good, but the lack of spontaneity and just "going with the flow" has taken a large chunk out of the enjoyment of it, for me.

As odd as it may sound, when that one day a week rolls around, I no longer look forward to it. Obviously it's still fun, but... not in the same way. It's hard to get excited about something that you know is going to happen. That's because there's no sexual tension and anticipation. Or worse, you know nothing's going to happen on the other 6 days of the week.

For me, and I think many others, sex is about those things - the anticipation, the not knowing, the possibility, the tension, the flirting.

Was it Ump who compared relationships to gambling? I think sex is a lot like that, too. Those that enjoy gambling do so because of the possibility they could hit it big, or risk losing it all. It's exciting. It wouldn't be nearly as exciting if you knew you were going to win small amounts every time. And that's kind of what my sex life has become. I know if I put a quarter in the machine on this day, around this time, I'll win 50 cents. :|

My point is, in many cases, it IS up to the other party to take responsibility. I had no part in this change, afaik. I spent a LOT of time trying to figure it out on my own before I brought it up in discussion. Years. No whining, no complaining, no soul-bearing - just a guy trying to figure out what happened, and taking action(s) to reverse it. No dice. I think that once you get to the point where you realize it's NOT you, it's them, that's when discussion needs to occur.

What's not appealing is, when something changes, you immediately discuss, without looking at one's self first. Asking my wife "what did I do?" or "what CAN I do?", without being introspective first, is unattractive.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

So I had a thought, what if the desire is still there from your SO. However, b/c you have been together long enough, they become complacent (or another way to look at it take you for granted, I know this is a topic several members here have brought up about their SO) and don't feel the need to act on that desire since they already "have" you. I know this could bring into question the desire or what the drive was behind it.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> I see what you're saying.
> 
> But when one person is sexually unfulfilled because of another's reluctance or complacency or barriers, then how is one supposed to take responsibility for _their_ actions?
> 
> ...


I can understand the bolded. It probably feels to her like you are asking her to solve the problem for you.

BTW, does she see your mutual sex life as a "problem," necessarily? Or to her is it just fine?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> So I had a thought, what if the desire is still there from your SO. However, b/c you have been together long enough, they become complacent (or another way to look at it take you for granted, I know this is a topic several members here have brought up about their SO) and don't feel the need to act on that desire since they already "have" you. *I know this could bring into question the desire or what the drive was behind it*.


Could you elaborate on the bolded, please? Not following you.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> Could you elaborate on the bolded, please? Not following you.


So I am thinking, we all know during the early (honeymoon) stage there are a lot of hormones running around rampant. What if your physical desire for your SO during that period is in part driven/heightened by the hormones. Down the road, the hormones wear off, and it isn't so much you don't desire your SO, but you don't desire them like you did during the honeymoon phase? Your SO may perceive this "change" in desire as not desiring them anymore. 

Not saying this is always the case, there are definitely a lot of factors involved. However, I think in the honeymoon phase some people can easily look past perceived flaws/incompatibilities, but when the phase is over it gets much harder to look past.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Vega said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> This causes me to ask the question:
> 
> ...


 @Vega if anyone here understand that men are capable of sex as almost an animalistic expression that is unrelated or irrelevant to any underlying factors such as knowing or being married to a person, then *why the need to correlate marriage and sex so closely together? *

Some men are fully capable of having a great marriage without sex!

Some men are fully capable of having great sex with someone that they do not even know her name! 

The fact that you claim men need "great sex = a great marriage" only adds credence to the fact that you can only see our gender as a sexual object. 

I could easily say the exact same with other topics:

Great careers = great marriage or does Great marriage = great careers?

Great finances = great marriage or does Great marriage = great finances?

Great health = great marriage or does Great marriage = great health?

Great attraction = great marriage or does Great marriage = great attraction?

Great teamwork = great marriage or does Great marriage = great teamwork?

I would think that a marriage is something that comprises of sex, careers, finances, health, attraction, teamwork, and endless other things. Your question though is flawed because you can also rearrange everything and ask:

Great teamwork = great sex or does Great sex = great teamwork?

Great health = great sex or does Great sex = great health?

so on and so on!

But once again claiming that MAN need great sex to = great marriage sounds as if you only see the male gender for sex and that you can NOT see us for our teamwork, career, health, attraction, finances, family values, religious morals, ethics, and endless other things.

Badsanta


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

badsanta said:


> But once again claiming that MAN need great sex to = great marriage sounds as if you only see the male gender for sex and that you can NOT see us for our teamwork, career, health, attraction, finances, family values, religious morals, ethics, and endless other things.


Spot on @badsanta , and felt the need to quote this portion of your post in particular.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

In all fairness to @Vega, she didn't say ALL men associate great sex with great marriages. She said the MAJORITY would. Just as you said SOME men would think their marriage good even if the sex was not. 

You're both saying the same thing but from different perspectives. 

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> In all fairness to @Vega, she didn't say ALL men associate great sex with great marriages. She said the MAJORITY would. Just as you said SOME men would think their marriage good even if the sex was not.
> 
> You're both saying the same thing but from different perspectives.
> 
> Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


I think in part, the reaction to Vega post has to do with her negative tone towards men. Heck, look at her first post on page 1 where she says that *a good majority of men would dump their wives for not having sex * She questioned why someone would expect sex when married, and her answer to test how much you really care for your SO would be to see how long you could go without sex  It does suck the negative experiences she has had with past relationships, no doubt. 

As you know, there are so many variables in a marriage/relationship. I fail to see the relevance in taking one specific component (sex) out of the many, and drawing a parallel between that and a great marriage.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I think in part, the reaction to Vega post has to do with her negative tone towards men. Heck, look at her first post on page 1 where she says that *a good majority of men would dump their wives for not having sex * She questioned why someone would expect sex when married, and her answer to test how much you really care for your SO would be to see how long you could go without sex  It does suck the negative experiences she has had with past relationships, no doubt.
> 
> As you know, there are so many variables in a marriage/relationship. I fail to see the relevance in taking one specific component (sex) out of the many, and drawing a parallel between that and a great marriage.


Again, when @Vega says 'a good majority' of men would dump their wives due to a lack of sex, others can say 'many men would stay in a sexless marriage' and both be correct. Is the glass half empty or half full? I guess it depends on your perspective. @Vega experiences have caused her to see them as half empty, but she's seeing the exact same thing as you and @badsanta.

And I agree that there are many components to a good marriage but the truth of the matter is that they are not all equally weighted. Some people put a hefty value on sex and if that fails then regardless of the other great qualities, the relationship is an unhappy one or worse, a dud. Unfortunately, it seems, at least on TAM, that it's mostly men who fall under this category which only serves to bolster @Vega perspective. That's just her reality. 

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> Some people put a hefty value on sex and if that fails then regardless of the other great qualities, the relationship is an unhappy one or worse, a dud. Unfortunately, it seems, at least on TAM, that it's mostly men who fall under this category which only serves to bolster @Vega perspective. That's just her reality.


I wonder though, without knowing any actual stats to support this on the forum, are most posters who come onto TAM to complain about a sexless marriage men? I know that there have been women who have this exact issue, but at least from reading around (and once again, I could be wrong here), it seems more often then not it is men. If so, that would definitely sway the appearance that "many" men only care about sex, especially when you see TAM posters respond to just end the marriage over this (although, I believe they would give the same advice to both men and women). 

Also, updated my avatar for ya


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I wonder though, without knowing any actual stats to support this on the forum, are most posters who come onto TAM to complain about a sexless marriage men? I know that there have been women who have this exact issue, but at least from reading around (and once again, I could be wrong here), it seems more often then not it is men. If so, that would definitely sway the appearance that "many" men only care about sex, especially when you see TAM posters respond to just end the marriage over this (although, I believe they would give the same advice to both men and women).


I think it would be really difficult to determine the stats exactly because typically sex in marriage is a reflection of the overall health of a relationship. Determining whether the problems in the bedroom were a) a result of -or- b) caused by issues outside the bedroom is the ol' chicken or the egg conundrum. 




EllisRedding said:


> Also, updated my avatar for ya


Lol! Too late. I'm reading your posts thinking 'damn millenial'. 

How old are you really?

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> Lol! Too late. I'm reading your posts thinking 'damn millenial'.
> 
> How old are you really?


Almost 38 ... got my walker and cane ready though :surprise:

Side note, mind if I ask if there have been any notable improvement with your H? I know you had that one thread I had been following, but I think that one eventually got closed down.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> I can understand the bolded. It probably feels to her like you are asking her to solve the problem for you.
> 
> BTW, does she see your mutual sex life as a "problem," necessarily? Or to her is it just fine?


Oddly enough, she does - to a point. She trusts me enough to recognize that it's not all bluster when I discuss this topic with her. But not enough to move too far in one direction.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> In all fairness to @Vega, *she didn't say ALL men associate great sex with great marriages. She said the MAJORITY would. *


Sorry @Lila I do not see it as the same. Here is my opinion:

Those with doctorate degrees in the fields of psychology and sexuality feel that because a penis in on the exterior on the body and responds in a rather obvious way that this allows men to grow up with a very clear understanding of how their sexuality works. In contrast because the vagina is on the interior of the body that woman are slower to associate things that cause a response to their sexuality. This is not true for ALL men and ALL women. It just means that the MAJORITY of men understand their own sexuality much better than their female counterparts. 

Now just because men have a natural tendency to understand their own sexuality does NOT equate to men feeling like great sex = a great marriage. *ALL THE OTHER THINGS THAT MAKE A MARRIAGE GREAT ARE EQUALLY AS IMPORTANT TO MEN AS THEY ARE WOMEN. *

There is only one difference in that women (not ALL) have a need to feel protected while men (not ALL) have a need to feel nurtured (fed and cared for). 

Imagine if sexuality were the metaphorical equivalent to keeping a fire going in a survival situation. Most men can get a fire going during a torrential down pour. It is actually hard for us to do this, but the women expect us to get it going and don't really appreciate it. Then when we ask for help gathering firewood, most (but not ALL) women will get upset, feel unappreciated and refuse to cook anymore. Then the fire goes out while the man is out hunting. Then the man gets hungry and the woman no longer has the needed fire to cook anything for him that he just hunted. Because the woman in unable to help with the fire or cook, she gets voted off the island.

This photo BELOW is probably just as effective and arousing to a male as if she were nude and dressed in expensive lingerie!










We all understand how fire is useful in a survival situation. 

*For those that do not understand why sex is also important in a survival situation, it will probably make the other partner literally feel like something inside them is being smothered and suffocated to death. *...and quite literally I might add. Since you are NOT ALL women @Lila that is not married to the typical man, I have to imagine *this* is also how you also feel right about now. 

Badsanta


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Sorry @Lila I do not see it as the same. Here is my opinion:
> 
> Those with doctorate degrees in the fields of psychology and sexuality feel that because a penis in on the exterior on the body and responds in a rather obvious way that this allows men to grow up with a very clear understanding of how their sexuality works. In contrast because the vagina is on the interior of the body that woman are slower to associate things that cause a response to their sexuality. This is not true for ALL men and ALL women. It just means that the MAJORITY of men understand their own sexuality much better than their female counterparts.
> 
> ...


So would you say that Dr. Harley has it all wrong with His Needs, Her Needs? I may not agree with everything the good dr. says but I do agree that people (men and women) prioritize the qualities that meet their needs for a happy marriage differently. His research contradicts your comment that all the things that make marriages great are equally important to men and women. His advice to a happy marriage is identify your partner's top needs and go about meeting them. Three guesses what the majority of the men he studied said is their top need?



badsanta said:


> Imagine if sexuality were the metaphorical equivalent to keeping a fire going in a survival situation. Most men can get a fire going during a torrential down pour. It is actually hard for us to do this, but the women expect us to get it going and don't really appreciate it. Then when we ask for help gathering firewood, most (but not ALL) women will get upset, feel unappreciated and refuse to cook anymore. Then the fire goes out while the man is out hunting. Then the man gets hungry and the woman no longer has the needed fire to cook anything for him that he just hunted. Because the woman in unable to help with the fire or cook, she gets voted off the island.
> 
> We all understand how fire is useful in a survival situation.


You lost me here badsanta.



badsanta said:


> *For those that do not understand why sex is also important in a survival situation, it will probably make the other partner literally feel like something inside them is being smothered and suffocated to death. *...and quite literally I might add. Since you are NOT ALL women @Lila that is not married to the typical man, I have to imagine *this* is also how you also feel right about now.
> 
> Badsanta


Not fair to hit below the belt b.s. 



Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> So I am thinking, we all know during the early (honeymoon) stage there are a lot of hormones running around rampant. What if your physical desire for your SO during that period is in part driven/heightened by the hormones. Down the road, the hormones wear off, and it isn't so much you don't desire your SO, but you don't desire them like you did during the honeymoon phase? Your SO may perceive this "change" in desire as not desiring them anymore.
> 
> Not saying this is always the case, there are definitely a lot of factors involved. However, I think in the honeymoon phase some people can easily look past perceived flaws/incompatibilities, but when the phase is over it gets much harder to look past.


I'm pretty sure that for many women, sexual response in the "new relationship" phase is spontaneous and then falls off to responsive once the "newness" wears off. It doesn't have much to do with the guy. I expect all the things a husband can do wrong are just reasons for her to not do anything about it (give responsive desire a try).

You might be able to maintain her spontaneous desire by creating a constant level of instability ("gaming" her), but who wants to do that?

If it's a good marriage, then it largely comes down to the woman's desire to work with responsive desire.

I think some women interpret "don't have sex unless you want it" as "don't have sex unless you have spontaneous desire" which is problematic.

There are obviously women who always have spontaneous desire, but I don't think there are enough of them to go around.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> my wife now understands, somewhat, my (and men in general's) need for sexual intimacy.


How did you accomplish that?


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> So would you say that Dr. Harley has it all wrong with His Needs, Her Needs? I may not agree with everything the good dr. says but I do agree that people (men and women) prioritize the qualities that meet their needs for a happy marriage differently. His research contradicts your comment that all the things that make marriages great are equally important to men and women. His advice to a happy marriage is identify your partner's top needs and go about meeting them. Three guesses what the majority of the men he studied said is their top need?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Yes, this is one of those posts where I think I even lost myself and would have deleted, but we can't delete anymore.* 

Sorry if what I said hurt, but a positive way to look at my comment is that you fully understand what most men feel like in a marriage where women do not care to put forth any effort into improving the quality of the marital sex life. There is some value in that. A great deal of men here are hurting, and you can empathize. 

Why will your husband not get his act together? Probably for the same reasons most wives will not get their acts together when it comes to sex. They will give in, they will make themselves available, but at some point doing all the work just becomes an exercise of loneliness, whereas just doing things alone actually allow you to finally get the attention you have been wanting!

Badsanta


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Sorry if what I said hurt, but a positive way to look at my comment is that you fully understand what most men feel like in a marriage where women do not care to put forth any effort into improving the quality of the marital sex life. There is some value in that. A great deal of men here are hurting, and you can empathize.
> 
> Why will your husband not get his act together? Probably for the same reasons most wives will not get their acts together when it comes to sex. They will give in, they will make themselves available, but at some point doing all the work just becomes an exercise of loneliness, whereas just doing things alone actually allow you to finally get the attention you have been wanting!
> 
> Badsanta


The difference is that I neither brought up my situation nor was it part of the conversation. My comments were rather generic. You brought it out in an attempt to lash out.

I will thank you for the lesson. 

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

alexm said:


> As odd as it may sound, when that one day a week rolls around, I no longer look forward to it. Obviously it's still fun, but... not in the same way. *It's hard to get excited about something that you know is going to happen*. That's because there's no sexual tension and anticipation. Or worse, you know nothing's going to happen on the other 6 days of the week.


This is how I used to feel with my late husband. We had sex a LOT. But after the honeymoon phase wore off (for me), I stopped looking forward to it, because I knew WHAT was going to happen and WHEN. 

It was going to be the same today, same tomorrow, same a week or a month from now. Because it happened so much, it was no longer 'special'. It had become _common_, kind of like brushing your teeth. 

Most of us brush our teeth every day, and some of us do this several times a day. But how many of us actually get _excited_ about it?

Even the most exciting activity can become_ boring _after a while. 

And eventually, avoided altogether.


----------



## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

The evil male chauvinist pig voice within me wonders if everyone is focused on the wrong word here. 

BadSanta, next time she says it try replying "No you are not JUST a sex object. Now get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich">

Or maybe suggest some food preparation that doesn't involve a knife.:grin2:


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

badsanta said:


> Those with doctorate degrees in the fields of psychology and sexuality feel that because a penis in on the exterior on the body and responds in a rather obvious way that this allows men to grow up with a very clear understanding of how their sexuality works. In contrast because the vagina is on the interior of the body that woman are slower to associate things that cause a response to their sexuality.


Except by the time a guy starts having frequent erections (not to mention ejaculations) a girl the same age on a similiar diet is already developing external genital signs (public hair), and breasts - not to forget that she (and I'm including a large portion of various parts of the transgender population in that "she") will have noticed the difference in breast development between most women and herself.
Add that to the fact in healthy societies children interact with animals so are aware that "mummies have babies" "from their tummies". Seldom do civilised people watch the intercourse part of the interaction (and young males frequently fail to comprehend it's significance).

the major difference is one of peer pressure, misinformation, and ego.
Peer pressure in that young girls are often told they're dirty, that their body parts are offensive, and that the only way to being of any value is to seek the approval of others. Some of that seems to be instinctive, but the reinforcement frequently enforces rigidity and ignorance (and not just on sexual matters). It's actually hard to tell how long this has been going on, but reading interpretations of the epic of gilgamesh, it may be that the re-enforcement (and thus selective breeding) has been going on since before humans had writing (over 7000yrs) and that is certain enough for trait reinforcement in a species, evolutionarily speaking. ie a society holds firm by the values its mothers pass to its daughters; men can come and go, be slaves or conquerors but the traditions are held by women - and in many ways that's what recorded patriarchial systems reflect, control of that societies passage through ownership of its women. In some ways it was useful, as the proxy system allows the culture to mutate, in others the price is certain a question.
But during those times the male does not learn of his position through his penis ['s actions] , no matter how much your doctors and patriarchs would like you to believe that. It is through the stories and myths [eg TV] that he is told by fathers, uncles, friends, brothers, cousins. Many a male child has panicked at his own first [conscious] orgasm.

The problem is that the female side of things comes with misinformation and from people who see a young girl as a burden or a competitor, or even a proxy for her own lost fantasies of purity. thus the young girl, seeing animals give birth, and pregnant women and animals all around her is taught to dislike certain touches. This is not helped by many young males being stupid, unobservant, unskilled, and simply obnoxious (and with no sense of smell).
the young girl is taught "nice things" - and insulted as being ugly or wanton, and peers are cast aside pregnant or shunned for having intercourse, or simply being to ready or attentive to males. How then should she be expected to have a healthy opinion of human sexuality.
Also there is a matter of how a woman's mind works - often there is a cognative dissonance between everything she sees and what she is told. How then to rationalise that; especially when being discredited by her peers, and flattered by "the enemy" (who tend to end up desiring sexual connection, even if that was never crossed their mind originally). thus it comes to that ego of being beautiful, pristine, innocent - while dealing with social (super ego) negativity, and her own self-doubt and mistakes. And still we see what should be simple choices in hostile societies, where a girl will risk her _life_ to go through with thoroughly unwise decisions, without a thought to advantage or risk.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Buddy400 said:


> How did you accomplish that?


I didn't accomplish anything. My wife and I respect each other and listen to what one another has to say about things.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Vega said:


> This is how I used to feel with my late husband. We had sex a LOT. But after the honeymoon phase wore off (for me), I stopped looking forward to it, because I knew WHAT was going to happen and WHEN.
> 
> It was going to be the same today, same tomorrow, same a week or a month from now. Because it happened so much, it was no longer 'special'. It had become _common_, kind of like brushing your teeth.
> 
> ...


Right, so it works the same in different situations.

Me, with once a week encounters, usually same day, same general time. You (previously) with pretty much daily. Either way, it becomes a schedule one adheres to, and schedules are boring (but sometimes necessary).

You and I want(ed) the same things. It's not about frequency, it's about spontaneity. It's about it just happening, without thinking about it.

For me, that's what makes sex exciting. The _possiblity_ and _anticipation_. For you and for me, that was/is removed, and it became something expected.

I can tell you with a straight face that I have amazing sex with my wife, but there's no build-up, no anticipation, no excitement prior to the act. It's 6 days and 23 1/2 hours of nothing sexual, then it's go-time.

I would literally take the exact opposite over what I have, any day of the week. Average, boring, even sometimes bad sex, but with flirting, anticipation, a build-up, a hunger, a desire, knowing that it could happen at any time and that the build-up is mutual.

6 days and 23 1/2 hours of the week, my wife is a 100% non-sexual being, and therefore I am, too, in her eyes.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

badsanta said:


> Now just because men have a natural tendency to understand their own sexuality does NOT equate to men feeling like great sex = a great marriage. *ALL THE OTHER THINGS THAT MAKE A MARRIAGE GREAT ARE EQUALLY AS IMPORTANT TO MEN AS THEY ARE WOMEN. *





Buddy400 said:


> I think some women interpret "don't have sex unless you want it" as "don't have sex unless you have spontaneous desire" which is problematic.


These two quotes are absolute jewels, IMO.

Obviously not all women have (or wind up with) responsive desire, but I do believe they are in the minority as far as marriage and LTR's go. And it ties in quite well with BadSanta's stance that women's sexuality is much more hidden than men's are.

One of many things I've observed in my ~40 years on this planet, 2 marriages, a few girlfriends, many good friends who are women, friends girlfriends and wives, sisters-in-law, reading, TAM, etc etc etc. is that when women become aroused, it is a) not apparent to anybody but them, and b) infinitely more easy to 'put it away'.

Men, on the other hand, have difficulty hiding it, and once it's there, have difficulty focusing on anything else until the 'situation' is taken care of. Perhaps it's in part due to the obviousness of our arousal (both to us, and anybody around). If you have a big zit on your forehead, it's there, and visible and you're conscious of it. If it's somewhere hidden, you're not, and neither is anybody else.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> *Those with doctorate degrees in the fields of psychology and sexuality feel that because a penis in on the exterior on the body and responds in a rather obvious way that this allows men to grow up with a very clear understanding of how their sexuality works. *In contrast because the vagina is on the interior of the body that woman are slower to associate things that cause a response to their sexuality. This is not true for ALL men and ALL women. It just means that the MAJORITY of men understand their own sexuality much better than their female counterparts.





spotthedeaddog said:


> Except... the major difference is one of peer pressure, misinformation, and ego.
> *Peer pressure in that young girls are often told they're dirty, that their body parts are offensive*, and that the only way to being of any value is to seek the approval of others.


I remember when I was a teenager being taught that men were sexual predators and rapists, and often had to go to jail for their sexuality. Then as I watched porn as a young teenager (under 18), I remember watching all the police warnings and FBI this and that explaining that anyone under the age of 18 watching this material was ILLEGAL! I often thought that if anyone caught me watching porn when I was 15 that I would have to go to jail. I did NOT understand that the warning was intended for the individual that gave me the porn, and in my case it was the cool kids at school that were my same age and my best friends. 

Given the *VERY WRITTEN NATURE AND VERY CLEAR LEGAL WARNINGS FOR PORN AND INDIVIDUALS UNDER THE AGE OF 18* did I let that impact my enjoyment of watching naked ladies on TV when I was home alone? No! No I did not! I had a very very clear understanding of what watching a naked lady on TV would do to me!












Imagine if teenage girls would feel like if they imagined would have to go to jail if they got caught reading a steamy romance novel? I see NO WARNINGS in the front of those things, and holy crap they are explicit! I remember finding my mom's romance novels when I was young and was blown away by some of the stuff I found in those things, but for the world of my I was so confused that there was no warning label on them. Meanwhile Penthouse Letters were shrink wrapped in a opaque material that looked like a black garbage bag to say that you must be 18 to read. 
*
If any gender grows up having their sexuality shamed it is men!!!*

Meanwhile women are a gentle flower and a temple that must be protected and respected. 

Badsanta


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

alexm said:


> 6 days and 23 1/2 hours of the week, my wife is a 100% non-sexual being, and therefore I am, too, in her eyes.


Not necessarily.
You're looking at the glass half empty instead of half full.
My wife also never talks about sex and we never tease each other sexually.
Albeit, we do have sex twice a week and that helps a bunch.

I think our situations simply increase sexual tension and I don't think that's a bad thing.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

UMP said:


> I think our situations simply increase sexual tension and I don't think that's a bad thing.


Sexual tension is only good if it eventually leads to sex lol.

During our sexless (or near sexless period), if you told me you could give me a pill that would have made my drive go away, I would have taken it in a heartbeat.

I know there was some talk here about taking sex out of the equation making the marriage happier. For me, yes, it does remove the sexual tension/frustration factor. However, it also made our marriage worse, not better.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Sexual tension is only good if it eventually leads to sex lol.
> 
> During our sexless (or near sexless period), if you told me you could give me a pill that would have made my drive go away, I would have taken it in a heartbeat.
> 
> I know there was some talk here about taking sex out of the equation making the marriage happier. For me, yes, it does remove the sexual tension/frustration factor. However, it also made our marriage worse, not better.


I was specifically talking about Alexm and my situation.
Both our wives don't talk about sex and we both have sex on scheduled days, more or less.

Also, Alexm and myself both say we greatly enjoy the sex we do have.

Obviously zero multiplied by whatever is still zero, I will grant you that.


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

alexm said:


> Right, so it works the same in different situations.
> 
> Me, with once a week encounters, usually same day, same general time. You (previously) with pretty much daily. Either way, it becomes a schedule one adheres to, and schedules are boring (but sometimes necessary).
> 
> ...


Meanwhile, we had it so often that I never felt like I had a chance to actually _miss_ it...which would have caused me to actually _want_ it! Instead, I felt _*smothered*_ (and told him so)

But it wasn't just the sex. It was the constant in-your-face activity that I grew to eventually avoid. I mean, when we weren't having sex, he was constantly throwing around sexual jokes and innuendo, or talking about sex in general. He seemed to insert some kind of sexual reference into nearly every conversation we had. Pornography was all over the house...I couldn't even throw something in the trash without seeing a pornographic calendar staring back at me. And what I've just described is just the tip of the iceberg. 

He told me that he wanted us to be "permanently attached at the hips". :frown2:

I guess I'm opposite of you, Alexm. I would rather have it once a week and have it be OUTSTANDING than to have it every day and for it to be 'eh'.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

UMP said:


> Also, Alexm and myself both say we greatly enjoy the sex we do have.


Agreed with this (um, let me clarify, not saying you, @alexm, and I are having great sex together lol). Problem is/was, sex (especially good/great) makes me want more sex, which adds to the frustration when it doesn't happen again for a while, which then makes it not so worth it. 

All I know, Ice cream will never let you down :grin2:


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed with this (um, let me clarify, not saying you, @alexm, and I are having great sex together lol). Problem is/was, sex (especially good/great) makes me want more sex, which adds to the frustration when it doesn't happen again for a while, which then makes it not so worth it.
> 
> All I know, Ice cream will never let you down :grin2:


Hey, 
I do sympathize because I LOVE talking about sex. I love teasing innuendoes, etc. However, that completely turns my wife off. I was left with blue brains for years.

Not until I taught myself to not give a shiit and just immerse myself into the days we DO have sex.

Self control is also very attractive to a woman.

I now purposely do NOT tell my wife I love her and practically NEVER touch her. I do kiss hello and goodbye. ( I ALWAYS tell her "I love you" after sex, always.)


In a strange, weird way I do believe my conscious effort to eliminate all sex related actions and conversations actually enhances the sex we do have.

Ideally, would I want things to stay the way they are? No.
However, I only have one wife, so I do what needs to be done to get what I want. (GREAT sex) Not ideal, but doable.


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I know there was some talk here about taking sex out of the equation making the marriage happier. For me, yes, it does remove the sexual tension/frustration factor. However, it also made our marriage worse, not better.


Actually what you wrote was kind of refreshing, Ellis. I've seen men who have written about being part of a sexless couple and wanting to find a way to _increase_ their wife's drive; not _decrease_ their own. Those men seem to be far and few between. 

it's a shame that your marriage became 'worse'. The only time I've seen this work successfully is if both people are on-board, and the rest of the marriage is healthy. Otherwise, if it's done out of frustration and with ill-will toward the partner, it will probably fail. 

The point I was trying to make was that it _*IS*_ an alternative and it _can_ be successful. 

But only if it's done out of _*love.*_


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Vega said:


> Meanwhile, we had it so often that I never felt like I had a chance to actually _miss_ it...which would have caused me to actually _want_ it! Instead, I felt _*smothered*_ (and told him so)
> 
> But it wasn't just the sex. It was the constant in-your-face activity that I grew to eventually avoid. I mean, when we weren't having sex, he was constantly throwing around sexual jokes and innuendo, or talking about sex in general. He seemed to insert some kind of sexual reference into nearly every conversation we had. Pornography was all over the house...I couldn't even throw something in the trash without seeing a pornographic calendar staring back at me. And what I've just described is just the tip of the iceberg.
> 
> ...



I would agree with you on this @Vega

I stopped at a McDonalds while driving somewhere and I parked next to this truck. It had one of those bobble head things inside, but it was a stripper pole with a plastic figurine attached to it that would bobble and spin on the pole. Next to it was ANOTHER one of a woman and her boobs were attached to springs so that her boobs would bobble as he drove down the road.

I step into the McDonalds and everyone sitting there looked perfectly NORMAL, so I thought to myself @Vega is right when it comes to guys in that based on looking at someone at a glance you have NO WAY to tell who the ones are that just just see women as a pair of tits and a vagina.

I'll give you that!

Badsanta


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Vega said:


> Meanwhile, we had it so often that I never felt like I had a chance to actually _miss_ it...which would have caused me to actually _want_ it! Instead, I felt _*smothered*_ (and told him so)
> 
> But it wasn't just the sex. It was the constant in-your-face activity that I grew to eventually avoid. I mean, when we weren't having sex, he was constantly throwing around sexual jokes and innuendo, or talking about sex in general. He seemed to insert some kind of sexual reference into nearly every conversation we had. Pornography was all over the house...I couldn't even throw something in the trash without seeing a pornographic calendar staring back at me. And what I've just described is just the tip of the iceberg.
> 
> ...


Interestingly, my wife told me exactly the same thing.
"you don't give me time to miss having sex."
or
"you don't give me time to initiate."

My answer was to completely eliminate that negative and it worked. The sex we DO have is WAYYYYY better than it used to be.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Vega said:


> Actually what you wrote was kind of refreshing, Ellis. I've seen men who have written about being part of a sexless couple and wanting to find a way to _increase_ their wife's drive; not _decrease_ their own. Those men seem to be far and few between.
> 
> it's a shame that your marriage became 'worse'. The only time I've seen this work successfully is if both people are on-board, and the rest of the marriage is healthy. Otherwise, if it's done out of frustration and with ill-will toward the partner, it will probably fail.
> 
> ...


I personally have no interest in forcing the issue of drive on my W, what does that really accomplish except lead to a ticking timebomb IMO. Now, if we talk about it, identify some possible solutions, then great, let's work on those together. At the end of the day I can only control my side of things, which at the time meant finding a way to minimize my drive. It worked, but the negative, it worked in part b/c I needed to detach from my W to do so (which, with my personality where I am very independent, it is very easy for me to do). One problem solved, another one created.

I guess I just see it where sex is part of the overall relationship, so to yank out a part of the relationship and expect things to just happily move forward is wishful thinking, understanding though that this is just my opinion, others may see this differently.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I can only control my side of things, which at the time meant finding a way to minimize my drive. It worked, but the negative, it worked in part b/c I needed to detach from my W to do so (which, with my personality where I am very independent, it is very easy for me to do). One problem solved, another one created.


Now that your sex life is back on track, are you more connected to your wife?

If so, does she notice this?

Does she realize the relationship between sex and your level of attachment?

My wife never let us go too long without sex. If it had been a while she'd say that we needed to have sex. It wasn't because she was horny, it was because she knew that it helped keep us emotionally connected.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Now that your sex life is back on track, are you more connected to your wife?
> 
> If so, does she notice this?
> 
> ...


Funny enough, last weekend she made a comment about how I am just that much more connected to her and present after we have sex. This is nothing new though, she has known this for a long time, and although the focus is on me I can tell you as well her mood/presence is much improved when we have an active sex life as well. So, Yes, Yes, and Yes lol

The issue at the time, the 4-6 week mark seemed to be the time where she missed the connection enough where it was time to do something about it. So, it is not like we would have sex, 3 days goes by without anything, and I am withdrawing. It would be sex, and then nothing for anywhere from 2-6 weeks. This was one of the big issues when we finally sat down and talked. On the topic of great sex in the last few posts here, that actually made things worse IMO. She didn't think things were as bad b/c when we did have sex it had been great. However, I was on the other side, where we have great sex, so why is a month + going by before we have sex again 

Since we talked though, things have greatly improved and we appear to be on the same page (or close enough). Long story short (maybe too late lol), over time my W has become more in lines with responsive desire (something I am now more aware of and adapting to), she lost a bit of herself in being a mother, and there is a portion where I think I just get taken for granted.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Joni Mitchell was correct in Big Yellow Taxi. You don't know what you've got til it's gone.

My wife used to be a sex object and hated it. Now she is not a sex object (to me, I am sure plenty of other men would be thrilled to get to be with her) and she wishes she was. Welcome to the club.

She plopped on the bed and put her head on my shoulder this morning. In her underwear. So many times in our marriage I would have given numerous body parts to get her to do that. In the past I would have not had any room (or blood flow) in my brain to think anything other than "OMG she is wearing nothing but her underwear and she is leaning against me - yippee!" Today I was thinking "this is nice" but also thinking "why did you make loud noises and wake me up so early"?

I am becoming more and more LD every day.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> I am becoming more and more LD every day.


It is amazing how easily (some easier than others) the body can adapt to a situation


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Vega said:


> I guess I'm opposite of you, Alexm. I would rather have it once a week and have it be OUTSTANDING than to have it every day and for it to be 'eh'.


I don't want it every day, truly!

What I DO want is somebody to share my sexuality with, and hers with me. What I do have is duty sex (yes, duty sex can be good, even great, physically. My wife knows what she's doing and participates, but she's not INTO it, if that makes any sense. She doesn't exactly sigh and get to it, either, but it's more like it's sex night, so let's do this).

It's difficult to properly explain. My ex wife and I were terrible together, in bed. Just not a physical match in any sense. We didn't fit right, we didn't want the same things, the same positions, you name it. What worked for her didn't work for me, and vice versa. But we wanted each other, and she still wanted sex, and we still shared our sexuality with one another - even though the 'big event' wasn't great. We basically had mediocre sex for many years, occasionally hitting "good". But she was into it, it was spontaneous, never planned. Sometimes she would just jump me, or pull me into the bedroom, or jump in the shower with me.

My wife doesn't do any of that, yet she's really great in bed, and we're a very very good match for each other, and the sex itself ranges from 'very good' to 'amazeballs'. My sexuality is muzzled 98% of the time. Ignored, occasionally insulted, and generally not taken seriously. Except for that time period on that one day. Occasionally on another day if we/she knows the regular day is booked up.

Ideally, I'd like both. But if I could only pick one, it would be the former. I'd rather have okay sex, spontaneously, with someone who is capable of being sexual, and with whom I can actually share our sexuality with, as opposed to what I have now.

For me, it's not about the _sex_, it's about everything that goes with it.

What I meant by we have something in common here, is that neither of us want(ed) something scheduled. Whether it's once a week, or daily. Our sexuality wasn't/isn't taken seriously or really even respected. It's about what your ex husband wanted, and what my wife wants - not about what _we_ want(ed). When it happens, either daily or weekly, it's on their terms, not ours. It should be mutual. Whether the sex is bad or amazing, once a week or daily, is irrelevant. Our spouses dictate our sexuality to us, that's the problem.


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Vega said:


> If your wife wanted money from you as often as you want sex from her, you just might get the impression that she ONLY wants you for your wallet. There are PLENTY of men who think this way about women. So how does a woman convince him that she doesn't just want him for his money?
> 
> By not asking him for money.


Sometimes the one has a hard time admitting he or she misunderstood the other. Some people have a pathological need to be right in the present moment, or be right about something from the past. This can happen for a variety of reasons, including low self-esteem and insecurities about one's own intelligence, to deep seated resentments and hurts from the current relationship, to emotionally charged but less than conscious fallout from events and relationships way before the present relationship and partner. Quite often we humans use coping mechanisms that get their "effectiveness" via their power to hide the truth from ourselves.

I can report first-hand experience directly opposite of what you asserted. Months of no initiatiation of sexual activity by me except for one attempt to kiss her on the mouth for maybe a minute one morning, and all that following nearly three years without any sexual contact --after some tens of month into that hardly any attempts to end the dry spell. And yet, yesterday as I told her I wanted a loving relationship -- one with romantic love, and not just a roommate, she told me all I wanted was sex.

Some people tell you what they want themselves to believe. It's the sort of dishonesty that destroys a marriage, for no discussion of the true issues is ever possible. At least that's how I see mine.

(Has nothing to do with gender.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> Sometimes the one has a hard time admitting he or she misunderstood the other. Some people have a pathological need to be right in the present moment, or be right about something from the past. This can happen for a variety of reasons, including low self-esteem and insecurities about one's own intelligence, to deep seated resentments and hurts from the current relationship, to emotionally charged but less than conscious fallout from events and relationships way before the present relationship and partner. Quite often we humans use coping mechanisms that get their "effectiveness" via their power to hide the truth from ourselves.
> 
> I can report first-hand experience directly opposite of what you asserted. Months of no initiatiation of sexual activity by me except for one attempt to kiss her on the mouth for maybe a minute one morning, and all that following nearly three years without any sexual contact --after some tens of month into that hardly any attempts to end the dry spell. *And yet, yesterday as I told her I wanted a loving relationship -- one with romantic love, and not just a roommate, she told me all I wanted was sex.*
> 
> ...


A helpful response, one that might open up conversation, could be, "Help me understand."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr.StrongMan (Feb 10, 2016)

To the OP, my wife accuses me of only wanting sex too. Of course, I only did get sex from her once this year so far and twice the most last year! Hmm..... As one person put it, "sex is like air, it's not important until you don't get any." Why can't wives understand that sex encompasses so much more for men... like acceptance and loving intimacy.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

kindMe77 said:


> To the OP, my wife accuses me of only wanting sex too. Of course, I only did get sex from her once this year so far and twice the most last year! Hmm..... As one person put it, "sex is like air, it's not important until you don't get any." Why can't wives understand that sex encompasses so much more for them... like acceptance and loving intimacy.


For both you and @PieceOfSky , you guys are either doing a bad job of communicating your needs, or your respective wives are immovable objects.

This is what I was talking about earlier in this thread - be introspective first, and if that fails, discuss openly and honestly, without malice and anger. If they care enough about you, they will begin to understand the hurt and pain this causes, and at least _try_ to see things from your perspective. If they don't, then you can at least tell yourself you did everything you could.

To not have sex for months, or even years, and then be told - that one time you kissed her, for example - that "all you want is sex", implies there's something not right about these women.

It means you're not being taken seriously as a human being, your needs are not being respected, and a whole host of other things. There's no room for that in a marriage. There has to be a mutual understanding and respect for one another, and that includes normal human needs, emotions, desires - of which sex is one.

This is akin to a man not working, and when his wife asks him to get off his a$$ and get a job, he replies "all you want is money".


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> For both you and @PieceOfSky , you guys are either doing a bad job of communicating your needs, or your respective wives are immovable objects.
> 
> This is what I was talking about earlier in this thread - be introspective first, and if that fails, discuss openly and honestly, without malice and anger. If they care enough about you, they will begin to understand the hurt and pain this causes, and at least _try_ to see things from your perspective. If they don't, then you can at least tell yourself you did everything you could.
> 
> ...


She could respond, "That is not all I want. But it is certainly part of it."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr.StrongMan (Feb 10, 2016)

alexm said:


> For both you and @PieceOfSky , you guys are either doing a bad job of communicating your needs, or your respective wives are immovable objects.
> 
> *This is what I was talking about earlier in this thread - be introspective first, and if that fails, discuss openly and honestly, without malice and anger. If they care enough about you, they will begin to understand the hurt and pain this causes, and at least try to see things from your perspective. If they don't, then you can at least tell yourself you did everything you could*.
> 
> ...



I've had the open conversation so many times! It's happened over the years. I believe my wife knows how to lie to herself. When she said she would try to work on it she wasn't serious. Why do I think that? Because SHE has not changed. Yet I have.

Great point about a man not working and a woman saying "all you want it money." Excellent point!!!


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

kindMe77 said:


> I've had the open conversation so many times! It's happened over the years. I believe my wife knows how to lie to herself. When she said she would try to work on it she wasn't serious. Why do I think that? Because SHE has not changed. Yet I have.
> 
> Great point about a man not working and a woman saying "all you want it money." Excellent point!!!


Then you genuinely have to ask yourself "how much does she actually care about me, as a person?"

Caring about someone in a marriage doesn't mean they have to bang your brains out every time you want it, nor does it mean you need to make x-amount of $. All it means is that one has to attempt to understand the other, and not diminish ones needs. Basically, empathise.

My wife does not understand my _need_ for sex with her, but she empathises and provides it in the best way she can. She does not _need_ sex. She has gone for periods of 6 months, a year, etc. without sex, several times in her life, and not missed it, needed it, or wanted it. This includes masturbation. It's something that's not important to her, and not necessary. But she understands that her feelings on the subject are not normal, and ALSO that mine are not abnormal or excessive.

The issues revolving around the situation you're in, believe it or not, are not sexual. It just happens to be the subject. This could virtually be about anything (hence the job analogy). Bottom line is, she has no empathy towards you about this one particular need, nor any desire at all to even understand it. That's a problem.

There will always be things like this in marriage. My wife has zero understanding, nor desire to understand, my interest in baseball, or Star Wars, among other things. She rolls her eyes, makes fun of me occasionally, hates when it's playoff time, etc.

But those are interests of mine - not needs. If she treated sex the same way she treats my love of these things, we'd have a problem.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I don't understand how a man is expected to bear his feelings without seeming insecure. 

Anyone care to explain the subtleties of these thoughts?


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> I don't understand how a man is expected to bear his feelings without seeming insecure.
> 
> Anyone care to explain the subtleties of these thoughts?


I assume you meant "bare", so I'll answer it that way.

You don't need to bare your feelings. All you have to do is say "I'm going to have a sex life, with you or without you". If she says "With me", then you say "Then we will be having sex on Tuesdays and Fridays, for 30 minutes each." (or whatever is your need)

If she balks at that, get divorce papers drawn up and hand them to her.

If she agrees, then set a reminder on your phone for those days. The rest of the time, don't make any reference to sex.

If that doesn't work, the situation is hopeless... but sometimes, it will work. And you don't have much to lose when you get to that point.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

tech-novelist said:


> *I assume you meant "bare"*, so I'll answer it that way.
> 
> You don't need to bare your feelings. All you have to do is say "I'm going to have a sex life, with you or without you". If she says "With me", then you say "Then we will be having sex on Tuesdays and Fridays, for 30 minutes each." (or whatever is your need)
> 
> ...


:laugh: Oops. I guess that's another for that thread. I'm racking up the points. Aren't I?

I hear you. It doesn't answer my question, though. Some women here and in other threads are posting that men need to bare their feelings to at least some extent. 

At the same time, in other threads, they say insecure men are a turn off. 

If you understand how a man goes about baring his feelings without looking like he is insecure, please try again.

You haven't shown one feeling in the post above. You've given consequences which seem like an ultimatum. That's okay, but doesn't address my question. 

Though, you do say, "You don't need to bare your feelings."


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

kindMe77 said:


> To the OP, my wife accuses me of only wanting sex too. Of course, I only did get sex from her once this year so far and twice the most last year! Hmm..... As one person put it, "sex is like air, it's not important until you don't get any." *Why can't wives understand that sex encompasses so much more for men... like acceptance and loving intimacy*.


Because it's not like that for ALL men. 

Why can't "Normal" men understand that the rest of the male population ISN'T LIKE _THEM_???

Why can't "normal" men understand that when SOME of them pretty much wanted a woman for ONLY sex before they were married, that they were actually shaping that woman's view of men in general? 

MOST 15 year old guys are NOT looking to get "acceptance" and "loving intimacy" from a girl. He wants to get laid. PERIOD. And that attitude doesn't always end at 15, or even once they get married.

Quite often, that 15 year old's body grows, while his maturity doesn't. Why do you think you hear so much about "man-children"? They're simply 15 year old boys in mens bodies.

I could tell you about my experiences with these "man-children", not knowing any better myself, yet knowing SOMETHING was terribly wrong.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Vega said:


> Because it's not like that for ALL men.
> 
> Why can't "Normal" men understand that the rest of the male population ISN'T LIKE _THEM_???
> 
> ...


At 15, I can't imagine anyone believing you would have the understanding of an adult, to know when a boy simply wants to have sex and hasn't been told to believe in Cinderella. Though, it's likely some learned earlier than that from a really terrible life.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Vega said:


> Because it's not like that for ALL men.
> 
> Why can't "Normal" men understand that the rest of the male population ISN'T LIKE _THEM_???
> 
> ...


I agree about 15 year old boys wanting to get laid.

What I don't understand is why men 10, 15, or 30 years in the future are being held to task over those 15 year old boys? How is it their responsibility to overcome that?

How about the individual overcomes their own triggers (which have nothing to do with their current partner) rather than trying to get someone else to own them?

I have met some terrible people in my life. I had a choice after my interactions with them to either write people off in general, or take the chance and keep giving people the benefit of the doubt. However, I don't walk around assuming people are bad because others have burned me in the past.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

We probably shouldn't use 15yr old boys, who have off the chart raging hormones along with not even being men, as any sort of example for what we are talking about as adults in mature relationships ... yikes


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> :laugh: Oops. I guess that's another for that thread. I'm racking up the points. Aren't I?
> 
> I hear you. It doesn't answer my question, though. Some women here and in other threads are posting that men need to bare their feelings to at least some extent.
> 
> ...


I don't think it is advisable for a man to bare his feelings to his significant other unless he is in a very good position in that relationship. Doing so when things are shaky is an invitation for more trouble.

In my opinion, of course.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> :laugh: Oops. I guess that's another for that thread. I'm racking up the points. Aren't I?
> 
> I hear you. It doesn't answer my question, though. Some women here and in other threads are posting that men need to bare their feelings to at least some extent.
> 
> ...


I have had all sorts of discussions and interactions with men that are able to bare their feelings. My Dad, brothers, MrH, mates, co workers etc. 

The only man in my life that wasn't able to do so was my ex and he IS a weak man.

Sort of says to me that men that are confident in who they are are able to show emotion, bare their feelings without too much problem. A man with a reasonable EQ and confidence can bare his feeling without seeming weak as he also owns his feelings and takes responsibility for himself and his actions.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

MrsHolland said:


> I have had all sorts of discussions and interactions with men that are able to bare their feelings. My Dad, brothers, MrH, mates, co workers etc.
> 
> The only man in my life that wasn't able to do so was my ex and he IS a weak man.
> 
> Sort of says to me that men that are confident in who they are are able to show emotion, bare their feelings without too much problem. A man with a reasonable EQ and confidence can bare his feeling without seeming weak as he also owns his feelings and takes responsibility for himself and his actions.


Where I think you have to be careful with this, it comes across as an assumption that a man who does not show emotions or needs to share his feelings must be weak, when that could be furthest from the truth.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

MrsHolland said:


> I have had all sorts of discussions and interactions with men that are able to bare their feelings. My Dad, brothers, MrH, mates, co workers etc.
> 
> The only man in my life that wasn't able to do so was my ex and he IS a weak man.
> 
> Sort of says to me that *men that are confident in who they are are able to show emotion, bare their feelings without too much problem*. A man with a reasonable EQ and confidence can bare his feeling *without seeming weak as he also owns his feelings and takes responsibility for himself and his actions.*


Too much problem for who? 

Who does he seem weak to? 

I need an example to understand you points. I think you make a few good points, but I'm not sure.

You see, there were a few posts which seem to say that a man should bare his feelings, like you have stated. Then, at the same time it was said that men look weak when they bare them.

I see it here in your post, but with some qualification. That being your ex was weak. I don't know why he seemed weak, but your new husband does the same and isn't weak?

It seems that you believe it has something to do with actions. That surprised me because I was only thinking of showing emotions through talk. 


Help me understand your perspective?


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

I could tell you about my experiences with these "man-children", not knowing any better myself, yet knowing SOMETHING was terribly wrong.

This is easy to explain - this is the equivalent of the man who married the girl who ****s lots of guys and cheats all the time and then is surprised when she cheats on him. You really can't blame a guy who treats women bad and they all still have sex with him. They are teaching him he's right ... Meanwhile the decent guy is taught he's a loser by the same women. Even serial killers have lots of female admirers. So the lesson is if you want women then be an *******. Unfortunately this is a successful strategy.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> Where I think you have to be careful with this,* it comes across as an assumption that a man who does not show emotions or needs to share his feelings must be weak, when that could be furthest from the truth.*


If that is what I believed then that is what I would have said.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> Too much problem for who? *Themselves*
> 
> Who does he seem weak to?
> 
> ...


HTH


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

2ntnuf I just wanted to add, in regard to the actions showing emotions part..............

thinking more about it then absolutely I see people showing emotions through actions. A hug, a kiss, a loving touch are all actions with no words that show an emotion.

A punch to the face is also showing emotion with actions, no words needed there.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

MrsHolland said:


> 2ntnuf I just wanted to add, in regard to the actions showing emotions part..............
> 
> thinking more about it then absolutely I see people showing emotions through actions. A hug, a kiss, a loving touch are all actions with no words that show an emotion.
> 
> A punch to the face is also showing emotion with actions, no words needed there.


When some or you, say a man who shows his emotions is weak, they or you, mean when he shows his anger inappropriately or do you mean something else?


ps.: I feel like you are being cryptic. I am a bit confused.


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

jld said:


> A helpful response, one that might open up conversation, could be, "Help me understand."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is true. With the right person, in the right context, such questions get thoughtful answers and lead to more discussion and more emotional intimacy.

In our particular case, it felt like stonewalling, to deflect a much more important question about where she sees our relationship is at, and did she want to work on building a romantic relationship or prefer to continue on being, essentially, roommates. She followed her assertion about my interest in sex with a list of other ways in which I have failed her, and a comparison to other relationships she has been in. I've had enough.

Point is when someone makes a claim about you that feels off the mark, you can and often should try to understand the basis for that claim, and try to communicate to close the gap. But, sometimes the other is not open or able to see the truth, and there is a bigger problem elsewhere. Some dog houses you can never leave.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> When some or you, say a man who shows his emotions is weak, they or you, mean when he shows his anger inappropriately or do you mean something else?
> 
> 
> ps.: I feel like you are being cryptic. I am a bit confused.


I have said all along that I* do not* think a man that shows his emotions is weak. 

The punch to the face was just an eg that people can show emotions through actions as well as words. Although having said that if I was ever hit by a man, yes I would think he was weak. Weak of character.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

MrsHolland said:


> I have said all along that I* do not* think a man that shows his emotions is weak.
> 
> The punch to the face was just an eg that people can show emotions through actions as well as words. Although having said that if I was ever hit by a man, yes I would think he was weak. Weak of character.


It is weak. It is also true that anger isn't the true emotion which caused that "punch to the face". That's why it is so weak. It takes courage to figure out what is going on without "punching someone in the face", while being angry and under verbal attack.

It's also an example of showing negative emotion. It took me off guard. I felt confused and wary of what was coming next. Though, to tell the truth, it's easier for me when others get to the point, most times.

I understand there may be hidden emotions that sparked a comment. I don't want to influence those, but just let them come out. 

So, to me, it seems it was a good example of expressing emotion through actions. Good emotions expressed through hugging, kissing, or completing chores and tasks to reduce the workload of a spouse, for example.

These don't seem to touch upon the idea of talking about personal issues within a spouse. They are strong in nature, since they are not usually talked about, just done. 

Can you give an example of a husband talking about a problem that he has so that it doesn't look weak? That would be great to understand. I do not, at the moment.


----------



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

the "sex object" label is the number 1 indicator of poor communications. Read the 5 love languages book


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

MrsHolland said:


> If that is what I believed then that is what I would have said.


Wasn't implying you make the assumption, just a general statement as I have seen others comment about men sharing their emotions as being "strong".

Then you have the other side of the spectrum where someone such as JLD comments that men are becoming more emotionally dependent on women, and this is "risky"

So, just a whole bunch of mixed messages.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Wasn't implying you make the assumption, just a general statement as I have seen others comment about men sharing their emotions as being "strong".
> 
> Then you have the other side of the spectrum where someone such as JLD comments that men are becoming more emotionally dependent on women, and this is "risky"
> 
> So, just a whole bunch of mixed messages.


Eggzackly.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I keep wanting to ask how many guys are ogling your wife frequently that cause her to feel creepy?


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> It is weak. It is also true that anger isn't the true emotion which caused that "punch to the face". That's why it is so weak. It takes courage to figure out what is going on without "punching someone in the face", while being angry and under verbal attack.
> 
> It's also an example of showing negative emotion. It took me off guard. I felt confused and wary of what was coming next. Though, to tell the truth, it's easier for me when others get to the point, most times.
> 
> ...


Hi 2ntnuf, I gave an eg in my earlier post of this, a real life situation that is current. The difficult situation MrH has with his mentally ill ex wife and how he discusses this with me. He shows frustration, anger and a whole range of emotions but does it in a way that is not weak. hmmm it is hard to explain why he can do this and not look weak, I guess it is bc he does it without lots of blame or woe is me type of words.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

MrsHolland said:


> Hi 2ntnuf, I gave an eg in my earlier post of this, a real life situation that is current. The difficult situation MrH has with his mentally ill ex wife and how he discusses this with me. He shows frustration, anger and a whole range of emotions but does it in a way that is not weak. hmmm it is hard to explain why he can do this and not look weak,* I guess it is bc he does it without lots of blame or woe is me type of words*.


Makes sense. Thanks.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> Wasn't implying you make the assumption, just a general statement as I have seen others comment about men sharing their emotions as being "strong".
> 
> Then you have the other side of the spectrum where someone such as JLD comments that men are becoming more emotionally dependent on women, and this is "risky"
> 
> *So, just a whole bunch of mixed messages*.


I agree. But this happens when you overlay one persons opinion and apportion it to all of that gender.

Have said all along, IMHO men are not weak for showing their emotions. This is a different thing than becoming emotionally dependent on another being "risky".


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

@alexm I read in another thread that your wife was sexually "normal," according to you, until you started talking marriage to her. You also mentioned earlier on this thread that she does not want to be perceived as a weak woman in any way. 

I am wondering if your wife is one who might do better living in a marriage-type arrangement, but without actually being married?

I have a cousin like this. She and her husband did not get along very well when they were married. They got divorced, but continued to live together, along with their children. 

Not sure much really changed except their legal status. But my sister told me that they were much happier with the new arrangement.

Maybe some people just need the psychological freedom of not being officially married to be happy in a marriage type relationship?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

jld said:


> @alexm I read in another thread that your wife was sexually "normal," according to you, until you started talking marriage to her. You also mentioned earlier on this thread that she does not want to be perceived as a weak woman in any way.
> 
> I am wondering if your wife is one who might do better living in a marriage-type arrangement, but without actually being married?
> 
> ...


Isn't this accepting "less" to accommodate someone else's broken-ness?

Would you agree to forego being legally married (to the point of having to get divorced but continuing to live together!!) because of your partner's issues?

I personally wouldn't get divorced in order to stay with that person.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Isn't this accepting "less" to accommodate someone else's broken-ness? I think it was just what they found to work for them.
> 
> Would you agree to forego being legally married (to the point of having to get divorced but continuing to live together!!) because of your partner's issues? Interesting question. I can't see our relationship not lasting, legal or otherwise. I can't see him ever leaving me for any reason. And any reason I can think of for leaving him would be corrected pretty quickly by him.
> 
> I personally wouldn't get divorced in order to stay with that person. If your partner had financial issues, but everything else were okay?


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jld said:


> @alexm I read in another thread that your wife was sexually "normal," according to you, until you started talking marriage to her. You also mentioned earlier on this thread that she does not want to be perceived as a weak woman in any way.
> 
> I am wondering if your wife is one who might do better living in a marriage-type arrangement, but without actually being married?
> 
> ...


Interesting points!

I think with her, it's not marriage she's afraid of - she wanted to get married. Like _really_ wanted to get married.

I think what she has is not really a fear of commitment, in the traditional sense, but the fear of giving herself to someone, completely, and being hurt by that person. She's not an emotional person, quite guarded, that sort of thing. But I DO think she was, at one point, willing to give herself to someone. I genuinely think it can be traced back to her first, real, adult relationship, when she was all of 19, 20. She had dated before (me, from 14-17), casually dated and sowed her oats, then settled in with this guy. Lived with him, the whole nine yards. Turned out he was a serial cheater, overly attached to his destructive brother, and she figured out she was not a priority in the slightest. From that point on, I figure, she's never really invested all she can into relationships. She didn't have another long term relationship for almost 10 years.

I recall her telling me, early on in our relationship, that she had never been broken up with, ever. I found this quite telling, in that it seemed like she was always the one to quit when something got difficult, and/or (in more than one case) the guy was a total ****, or cheated.

So, in hindsight, it seems it took her a few years to recognize that I was serious business, and that's when she fell off the cliff, so to speak. We moved in together (she had more or less been living with me prior to that, just not officially) and the excuses started almost immediately. Too tired, have to get up early, too much to do, stressed, etc. Technically nothing had changed, except for sending out change of address notifications 

With her, it's entirely mental. That imaginary line in the sand that she crossed. S*** got real all of a sudden. Since we moved in together, and especially since we got married, she's actually been more guarded, because now she has more to lose.

The irony is that her brain is telling her to protect herself, but by doing things that are actually more destructive. Like I said in the other post, people have a way of making these self-fulfilling prophecies come true - even though it's exactly what they're trying to avoid. By subconsciously minimizing something like sex, and her own sexuality, she's prophecizing that I'll divorce her, or cheat on her. Then she can say "I told you so" to no one in particular. The human brain is fascinating this way. If you tell yourself you can't do something, or that you'll fail at it, you probably will. So if you're forced to do something you think you will fail at, and then fail at it, there's almost this sense of justification. If your past has already "proved" that you're a failure at something, it makes it infinitely worse. Therefore, the escape mechanism tells you to not even try, it's just going to end in failure, anyway, so might as well save yourself the effort and embarrassment.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> Interesting points!
> 
> I think with her, it's not marriage she's afraid of - she wanted to get married. Like _really_ wanted to get married.
> 
> ...


What have you tried in order to reassure her?

For example, have you ever insisted on sitting down and talking all this out?


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Married couple likely cannot talk this out among themselves. The person being protective likely needs to want to resolve the issue for themselves, and seek 3rd party help to resolve it. Only after that is done will conversation with one's spouse be productive. Before then, exceedingly high chance that anything alexm says to A2 will be discounted as "just trying to get what he wants from me" and not just ignored but actively resisted.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Married couple likely cannot talk this out among themselves. The person being protective likely needs to want to resolve the issue for themselves, and seek 3rd party help to resolve it. Only after that is done will conversation with one's spouse be productive. Before then, exceedingly high chance that anything alexm says to A2 will be discounted as "just trying to get what he wants from me" and not just ignored but actively resisted.


My sense from what he has said is that she accepts the obligation to have sex once a week, and tries to do a good job with it. But it does not necessarily come from her heart. And having it come from her heart, having her be truly inspired, the way people who are in love with each other and are spontaneous with each other are, is what Alex would really like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@jld: The reason it does not "come from her heart" is that she is intentionally refusing to open her heart to him. From fear that if she truly opened up and let go, then his betrayal (and in some part of her mind, his betrayal is inevitable) will hurt much more. So, to protect herself from that greater level of pain when he betrays her, she refuses to open her heart to him.

I am suggesting that Alexm and A2 likely cannot talk this out together, but instead that A2 needs outside help to address this. Alexm has too much at stake in the outcome for his advice to be taken seriously by A2. A2 needs to hear this line of argument from someone who has no particular stake in the outcome for her to be open to the idea that her behavior, driven by a desire for self-protection, is almost guaranteed to lead to the betrayal that she fears. She is shooting herself in the belly. And then blaming Alexm when she feel pain. I don't think she would be open to hearing that truth from Alexm. But i wish she were open to hearing it from someone. Because it would help both of them immensely. And what she is doing now is a tragedy for both of them.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> @jld: The reason it does not "come from her heart" is that she is intentionally refusing to open her heart to him. From fear that if she truly opened up and let go, then his betrayal (and in some part of her mind, his betrayal is inevitable) will hurt much more. So, to protect herself from that greater level of pain when he betrays her, she refuses to open her heart to him.
> 
> I am suggesting that Alexm and A2 likely cannot talk this out together, but instead that A2 needs outside help to address this. Alexm has too much at stake in the outcome for his advice to be taken seriously by A2. A2 needs to hear this line of argument from someone who has no particular stake in the outcome for her to be open to the idea that her behavior, driven by a desire for self-protection, is almost guaranteed to lead to the betrayal that she fears. She is shooting herself in the belly. And then blaming Alexm when she feel pain. I don't think she would be open to hearing that truth from Alexm. But i wish she were open to hearing it from someone. Because it would help both of them immensely. And what she is doing now is a tragedy for both of them.


Alex, have you two gone to counseling? Is she open to it?

You feel she is scared to give herself to you, to share her deepest vulnerabilities with you, to really let you know her and then to trust you will still stay with her? Is that correct?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

alexm said:


> Interesting points!
> 
> I think with her, it's not marriage she's afraid of - she wanted to get married. Like _really_ wanted to get married.
> 
> ...


Alexm,

Internal Family Systems is a model describing the sort of thing you described, where parts of us seeking to protect us end up harming us. Maybe you've heard of it? ("Family" here does not refer to other individuals, rather the notion is we have a family of different parts making up our whole). It makes sense to me, including the particular breakdown of the different sort of "parts" playing a role, where they come from, and what they are seeking, and where they lead us into trouble. IFS Therapy has the goal of better integrating these parts, as I recall, and not excising them, and, it is claimed, something one can lead oneself through. It's such an intuitive and approachable model, I'm surprised I haven't heard more of it.

Re. the challenges of having desire in a marriage or committed LTR, Esther Perel's book Mating in Captivity is very good. Your wife's response to settling in reminded me of that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

