# Obligations to spouse vs. parents



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

We may have found the rocks on which to founder our long marriage. 

My father had a heart attack and quad bypass a couple of years ago. About the same time, he lost his house because he'd had to mortgage it to pay for his divorce settlement with my mother and could no longer afford the payments. I had a long standing statement that we would open up our home before making him live on the streets, which we did. I strongly believe in taking care of family when we have the means, and figured this was a helluva lot better than taking in my mentally ill mother when the time comes. I thought we'd dodged a bullet.

This is about the same time that my now adult children moved out, so we were rattling around in an empty 3600 ft^2 house with three baths and five bedrooms. Space is not an issue. We moved him into a back bedroom where he can have his own bathroom. He bought his own small refrigerator and pays a token rent that's really just enough to cover his utilities. 

So far so good. Except my wife hates the man. Hates him with a passion that I reserve for true scum. Despises him, mostly because he was non-existent in my children's lives. He has never done anything to cause grief in the family, but she apparently cannot stand to be in the same house.

He keeps completely to himself FTMP. If they have to "suffer" more than 5 minutes of face time a day, it's unusual. He completely respects our space and stays out of our life. He's a bit paranoid, so we had to start locking our doors whenever we go out (not usually necessary in our rural setting). He is a gun enthusiast, although he was asked by my wife to not have one in the house, to which he agreed.

My wife wants me to kick him out. She claims to have thought that his moving in was only temporary (there is contention over how clear this point was made) and that if he has the means to live on his own, we should require it of him. 

So I'm not willing to have a conversation with my father along the lines of "You've been reasonable and respectful in your time here, doing everything we've asked, but your daughter-in-law hates the sight of you and I have to follow her requests, no matter how utterly unreasonable and unfounded they seem to me. Here's your suitcase."

My wife thinks I don't care about her feelings, and I've lost some respect for her for what I find to be an irrational position. It is turning into the biggest sticking point we've ever hit in three decades.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Cletus said:


> We may have found the rocks on which to founder our long marriage.
> 
> My father had a heart attack and quad bypass a couple of years ago. About the same time, he lost his house because he'd had to mortgage it to pay for his divorce settlement with my mother and could no longer afford the payments. I had a long standing statement that we would open up our home before making him live on the streets, which we did. I strongly believe in taking care of family when we have the means, and figured this was a helluva lot better than taking in my mentally ill mother when the time comes. I thought we'd dodged a bullet.
> 
> ...


Just two questions. 

Has she always felt this way about him or is this new?

Is he physically/financially capabale of living on his own?


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Oh Cletus, I feel for you mate. What a rotten position to be in.

I can't stand my inlaws, I'll be honest...but I'll admit I'm a bit on the fence about your situation, given that your father stays out of your business and causes no problem by being there.

Generally though, it should always be spouse first. Always. 

A 30 year marriage is a lot to risk...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Just two questions.
> 
> Has she always felt this way about him or is this new?
> 
> Is he physically/financially capabale of living on his own?


It has developed over the years. My father takes introverted to a new level. After he divorced, we didn't see much of him. Failure of a grandparent to come to my children's baseball games and dances is a summary execution offense to my wife. Nonetheless, he more-or-less performed the duties of both bread winner and homemaker when I was growing up due to my mother's health and mental issues. We are not terribly close, but he took his parental obligation seriously, and I in kind take mine seriously. I _thought_ that this was something my wife appreciated about me. 

I don't know too much about his finances other than he's living on a small pension from years in the workforce. I know he has no substantial retirement savings. He claims that my mother got more than half of his monthly income in their settlement. He is fit enough to live on his own now, but I suspect it would be tight.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

frusdil said:


> Generally though, it should always be spouse first. Always.


I agree with this when the spouse isn't being irrational. I watched my father cave into the demands of my paranoid schizophrenic mother growing up, much to my sister's detriment. I simply cannot do that. I think my wife is being irrational on this, so I'm not inclined to let her play the "spouse first" card. Not when the actual objective impact on her life is so small.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I agree with this when the spouse isn't being irrational. I watched my father cave into the demands of my paranoid schizophrenic mother growing up, much to my sister's detriment. I simply cannot do that. I think my wife is being irrational on this, so I'm not inclined to let her play the "spouse first" card. Not when the actual objective impact on her life is so small.


I tend to agree in this situation. I mean, he's at the back of the house, basically independent, minds his own business and causes no trouble. I don't see what the issue is.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

What does your father want? 

What are the alternatives? 

Would you and your wife help your father find somewhere else to live, or expect him to do it? 

Does he need medical care? Is he absent-minded? Would he remember to take his medications correctly? Would he be able to make it to his doctor's appointments? 

Can he grocery shop for himself? 

It's a question of how much responsibility you each choose to take for the well-being of an aging parent. This is one of those conversations that is much better and easier to have when you aren't struggling at an impasse, and it's not easy to think about then, either. 

Your wife is holding a grudge against your father, and I don't know if it's justified or not, but you have to help her understand that your sense of responsibility and humanity means you cannot do less for your father than he did for you. If he was not in your children's lives in the past, he can be now - use this as an opportunity for them to get to know each other even a little better.

Cletus, if this is important to you, draw your line in the sand, gently but firmly. In the end, YOU have to be able to live with your choices and actions. Will you be able to live with yourself if you kicked your father out and left him to fend for himself? That's not something I, personally, could ever do. I would seek a compromise and discuss it thoroughly looking at all options and angles, but I could not just kick my parents out. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I did that. I would expect my partner to respect that, even if they didn't agree with me.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

frusdil said:


> I tend to agree in this situation. I mean, he's at the back of the house, basically independent, minds his own business and causes no trouble. I don't see what the issue is.



Many people could look at it this way and go on about their day. For me,my home all of it, even the unused parts, is my sanctuary. Having someone I hated living under the same roof would be a mental drain. 

That said she is in a marriage and Cletus feels differently. This was a scenario Cletus brought up and promised to provide a home for his father. I assume she didn't speak up then and tell him it wasn't going to happen. I know I would have personally paid my Ex MIL's rent before I let her live in my home.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Cletus said:


> It has developed over the years. My father takes introverted to a new level. After he divorced, we didn't see much of him. Failure of a grandparent to come to my children's baseball games and dances is a summary execution offense to my wife. Nonetheless, he more-or-less performed the duties of both bread winner and homemaker when I was growing up due to my mother's health and mental issues. We are not terribly close, but he took his parental obligation seriously, and I in kind take mine seriously. I _thought_ that this was something my wife appreciated about me.


 It sounds your Father is abiding by ALL your rules, staying out of your hair...she only sees him minutes a day.. 

I think your wife is not taking into consideration the years He was there for YOU growing up....even if he wasn't the ideal father.. he sacrificed a great deal to hold the family together, food on the table- the challenges of a mentally ill wife is more than many can bear...... 

.. I'm sure this affected him in many unhealthy ways , to cope even with his life , much loss in that.. leading to his backing away emotionally/ not being there for his grand children.. if your children are healthy , had lots of loving from others growing up.. did they really care that Grandpa was "reclusive Grandpa" ?? 

I would feel as you do.. now if he was causing loud noises, wrecking the house, if he was senile and could be a fire hazard.. I would take another position on this....given how large your house is.... I can't see the harm in this.. an annoying neighbor sounds far more troubling to me even -over anything you have described here.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Being that he lives with you, it appears you couldn't ask for a better physical situation: you have a large home, he has his own space, he pays a token rent, and he stays out of your business, plus, he's your father.

If I understand correctly, your wife doesn't like him because he doesn't take much of a role in your children's lives, such as going to their games. If that is reason for a problem, I should probably disown my parents. 

I know there is a big thing these days about supporting your kids, but every family is different, and everyone has a different definition to that. I'll spare you a book here, but my daughter and I are very close, but she couldn't care less if "I' go to her activities, let alone the grandparents. 

That's so normal in my family, I hadn't even thought about it until reading this. I think that is a rather lame excuse to not like him.

When it comes to spouse or your father first, I will go with spouse; but if she's putting you first as her spouse too, it seems like there should be some wiggle room to compromise, but there doesn't seem to be any. Has she offered a compromise?


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

I will also add that your father, after all he had to bear during his difficult marriage (marriage to a mentally ill person would take everything you had), losing him home in the divorce...having to battle financially...he may simply have been spent. Had nothing to give to anyone...perhaps it was all he could do to keep his head above water.

Could you point that out to your wife?


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

I will also add though, (sorry, I'll shut up in a minute)...that my inlaws will NEVER EVER live with us.

They have been nothing short of awful to me from the day they met me, and have treated me as "less than". They rarely see their son because of it.

So no, they will not ever live with us. They can live with their daughter.


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## Aspydad (Oct 17, 2013)

I am a firm believer that husband and wife MUST place their relationship above all others - including parents and even children.

I only have one brother, and his wife and my mother cannot stand each other. About 10 years ago this was really putting a stress on his marriage as my little brother has always been a Moma's Boy. He called me and asked for my advice and what I did was ask him - what would our Dad do?? Who does Dad place a a pedestal? If Dad had to choose who to keep happy - Mom or anyone else including his two kids - what would he do? My brother knew the answer to that question immediately - my Dad would do anything for our Mom. So I told my brother - we were designed to honor our parents - and you need to honor yours by keeping with what our father has taught us through his actions - you put your wife FIRST PERIOD.

My brother did this - and he and his wife are happy as can be. Over the last 10 years - my mother and sister in law have seen each other twice. My brother will go visit my parents about twice a year and bring his daughter - and actually another time ships his daughter to my parents house for a couple of weeks to get spoiled. Last year my brother told me that I gave him the best advice ever and it worked like a charm.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Aspydad said:


> I am a firm believer that husband and wife MUST place their relationship above all others - including parents and even children.
> 
> I only have one brother, and his wife and my mother cannot stand each other. About 10 years ago this was really putting a stress on his marriage as my little brother has always been a Moma's Boy. He called me and asked for my advice and what I did was ask him - what would our Dad do?? Who does Dad place a a pedestal? If Dad had to choose who to keep happy - Mom or anyone else including his two kids - what would he do? My brother knew the answer to that question immediately - my Dad would do anything for our Mom. So I told my brother - we were designed to honor our parents - and you need to honor yours by keeping with what our father has taught us through his actions - you put your wife FIRST PERIOD.
> 
> My brother did this - and he and his wife are happy as can be. Over the last 10 years - my mother and sister in law have seen each other twice. My brother will go visit my parents about twice a year and bring his daughter - and actually another time ships his daughter to my parents house for a couple of weeks to get spoiled. Last year my brother told me that I gave him the best advice ever and it worked like a charm.


I'm puzzled how this compromise means he is putting his wife first? If his mom and his wife don't get along, it seems like a happy situation for everyone if mom and the wife stay apart while grandmom gets to see plenty of the grandkids. 

I think it's a fine solution, but how does that show he put his wife first? What did your brother do differently?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Based off the details given here your wife sounds totally unreasonable.

Is there a chance her hatred of your dad is linked to other circumstances she's kept quiet about? How does your dad feel about your wife?

Honestly asking your spouse to throw their own father into the streets because he didn't go to the kids' games sounds cruel and heartless. She's put you into the kind of impossible situation that a loving, committed wife just wouldn't. Is this indicative of her attitude toward you in general, or just some bizarre anomaly?


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

I can't help wondering if the shoe was on the other foot and it was one of her parents who needed the help and you told her to kick them out in the street. 

Maybe you should ask her how she would feel about it. If she tells you that she would do what you requested and pitch her Mum or Dad out with no problem even though their not causing any trouble, she would be lying through her teeth. 

It's one thing if it's a able bodied person like a younger brother or sister freeloading but an old man who minds his own business and not causing trouble is being unreasonable. 

Maybe he wasn't the father of the year but he put a roof over your head, clothes on your back and food in your stomach and didn't ask for anything in return. 

Like I said, ask your wife it it was one of her parents and you made such a request to her.


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## Aspydad (Oct 17, 2013)

norajane said:


> I'm puzzled how this compromise means he is putting his wife first? If his mom and his wife don't get along, it seems like a happy situation for everyone if mom and the wife stay apart while grandmom gets to see plenty of the grandkids.
> 
> I think it's a fine solution, but how does that show he put his wife first? What did your brother do differently?


My brother wanted to go visit my parents with his wife and child. But his wife had so many bad experiences with my mom that she refused - and this bothered him big time to the point that he was questioning whether his wife loved him - this was a major issue in his marriage. Also, my brother is a major type A personality and he was not getting his way - his wife is another type A - so you might imagine how this was playing out.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

_So glad my in-laws live in France . . ._

Cletus, you have not exactly been totally satisfied with your marriage. Might it be time to move on, even with your dad in tow?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Aspydad said:


> My brother wanted to go visit my parents with his wife and child. But his wife had so many bad experiences with my mom that she refused - and this bothered him big time to the point that he was questioning whether his wife loved him - this was a major issue in his marriage. Also, my brother is a major type A personality and he was not getting his way - his wife is another type A - so you might imagine how this was playing out.


So in that situation, there really was no significant consequence to your mother. She's probably just as happy not seeing her daughter-in-law since she's getting her son and the grandkids. Putting his wife first this way did not really hurt his mother, and might have made mom so much happier. 

I think in Cletus' case, if he puts his wife first, his father might suffer. It's important to consider what the ramifications of a situation are before acting according to a "rule" of "put spouse first."


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

Cletus-

Are you able to supplement your Dad's income? Maybe cover the rent on a small apartment nearby, and leave the (non-rent) monthly bills to him?

I can understand a spouse wanting no elders living in their home (how does she feel about HER parents living with the two of you?).

If the choice is "live with us or be homeless on the streets," the spouse had better be on board with "live with us." But "live somewhere else and we'll help with the rent" is an okay compromise, I think.

Good parents are always going to be there for you, as long as they can be. They'll do anything they can to help you, and they will always look out for your interests as well as they are able to.

Most parents fall short of the ideal, but they keep on trying.

Spouses, eh, well...... Spouses sometimes have different agendas. That agenda can be a little bit better than good parents- a spouse can love you and make children and raise a family with you, where your parents, well, already did that.

Lots of spouses fall short of the ideal, too. Over 50%, nowadays.

It can be a hateful failing, like adultery, abuse, or cuckoldry. It can be a hidden one, like running up the credit cards, or drug addiction. It can be a moral failing, like kicking aged parents to the curb because their presence annoys them. Or taking control of the estate, and putting them in a Nursing Home, when you know they would prefer to live at home, but this way there'll be more money left....

The kind of spouse that I would honor and cherish more than my parents would be the kind of spouse who honored and cherished my parents.

If you have a spouse who drives a wedge between you and your parents, you don't have a very good spouse.

And if you let them, well, maybe the two of you were made for each other.

Ahem. Cletus, I'm pretty sure those last few paragraphs weren't directed at you. Climbing off soapbox slowly......


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Doesn't sound like he's creating problems. You have plenty of space. I don't see the issue except that she wants him out. If you tell him to leave, you will resent her for the remainder of your marriage.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NotLikeYou said:


> The kind of spouse that I would honor and cherish more than my parents would be the kind of spouse who honored and cherished my parents.


That's beautiful, NLY.


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## IamSomebody (Nov 21, 2014)

Did you discuss this with your wife, exploring all options, before your father moved in? Or did you inform you wife this is how it will be because you made a promise years ago, before you met her. Sounds like you just brought your father in and did not even want to consider other options, including subsidized housing. *THIS* may be why your wife is so upset, she wasn't even consulted but had all this dumped on her.

IamSomebody


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## bravenewworld (Mar 24, 2013)

I'm going to go against the grain here and say I see your wife's point. Honestly, I wouldn't want an in-law I'm not particularly close with or actively dislike living in my home. Even if he completely keeps to himself there's a definite burden and sacrifice of privacy.

Does your Father qualify for low income senior housing? Two of my friends parents recently moved to such a place and are really enjoying the services offered - daily grocery store shuttle, meals on wheels, group walks, etc.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

NotLikeYou said:


> The kind of spouse that I would honor and cherish more than my parents would be the kind of spouse who honored and cherished my parents.
> 
> If you have a spouse who drives a wedge between you and your parents, you don't have a very good spouse.


Like a lot of things, this situation needs to be assessed on a case by case basis. There are unreasonable spouses, and there are unreasonable inlaws.

There are many reasons a spouse may not like their inlaws, that have nothing to do with their spouse. There are also plenty of other cases where the spouse just wants what they want and to h3ll with everyone else.

In Cletus' case, if the facts are exactly as presented, it appears his wife is being unreasonable.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"She claims to have thought that his moving in was only temporary (there is contention over how clear this point was made) and that if he has the means to live on his own, we should require it of him.'

This. Did you specifically tell your wife that your father would be living with you until he died? If not, she may have had an expectation that he would be moving out at some time so she sucked it up for two years (which is an eternity when you actively dislike someone). 

The only way your wife will back off is if she sees a benefit to his living with you. Any benefit for her? If not, explore other living arrangements for your father. Not every family is capable of multi-generational living.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I am defintely seated in the camp of the spouse should come first unless they are doing something damaging or malicious. I can't find any real reason why she doesn't want the man in the home. If for nothing else he gives them some extra pocket money and is the best roomate available....cause he keeps to himself. Only you can decide the right course Cletus. If I were in your position and had the facts as you presented them I wouldn't put my father out unless their was a very good reason.. Just cause of the wife's opinon on how he grandparented wouldn't be enough for me.

That's not to say you couldn't start working with him to get him someplace else eventually. But out in the street...nope


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## Aspydad (Oct 17, 2013)

norajane said:


> So in that situation, there really was no significant consequence to your mother. She's probably just as happy not seeing her daughter-in-law since she's getting her son and the grandkids. Putting his wife first this way did not really hurt his mother, and might have made mom so much happier.
> 
> I think in Cletus' case, if he puts his wife first, his father might suffer. It's important to consider what the ramifications of a situation are before acting according to a "rule" of "put spouse first."


I am not saying let the Father go homeless. I see an indication that the Father could find another living arrangement. I doubt Cletus' wife wants the Father to be put in a homeless shelter. But, it does sound as if she has made up her mind that she does not want to live with him and my point is this - who is number one here? Wife or Father? If it is Father - my opinion is that there are other issues I don't know about in the marriage and that if Cletus ignores wife - this will be a big big problem.

I actually think what Cletus faces here is a very common issue. I most likely will be faced with this as well. My Father-in-law is 80 and lives on his own. Four hours away. It seems that he is starting to come visit more often and for longer periods of time. We also have a wing in the house where he can live - but - this guy drives me crazy!! If I add it up - he lives in my house about three months a year and it's not really what he does - it what he does not do - I basically feed him, pay for the utilities that he uses, and my wife waits on him hand and foot. After the meal - instead of helping with dishes (ever) he comes and dumps his plate at the sink and say the words "Mighty Good - Mighty Good" which just drives me crazy as I do the dishes!! He is hard of hearing - so he has to have the TV turned up LOAD - and he likes to stay up late at night - I can hear this when I am trying to go to sleep so I can get up at 5 am. There is a TV in his room and my wife has asked him to go in there late at night so as to not disturb us - he refuses!! Says it hurts his neck to lay in a bed to watch TV. I can tell you - he is not permanently moving in to my house when he gets older - life is just too short.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Aspydad said:


> I am not saying let the Father go homeless. I see an indication that the Father could find another living arrangement. I doubt Cletus' wife wants the Father to be put in a homeless shelter. But, it does sound as if she has made up her mind that she does not want to live with him and my point is this - who is number one here? Wife or Father? If it is Father - my opinion is that there are other issues I don't know about in the marriage and that if Cletus ignores wife - this will be a big big problem.
> 
> I actually think what Cletus faces here is a very common issue. I most likely will be faced with this as well. My Father-in-law is 80 and lives on his own. Four hours away. It seems that he is starting to come visit more often and for longer periods of time. We also have a wing in the house where he can live - but - this guy drives me crazy!! If I add it up - he lives in my house about three months a year and it's not really what he does - it what he does not do - I basically feed him, pay for the utilities that he uses, and my wife waits on him hand and foot. After the meal - instead of helping with dishes (ever) he comes and dumps his plate at the sink and say the words "Mighty Good - Mighty Good" which just drives me crazy as I do the dishes!! He is hard of hearing - so he has to have the TV turned up LOAD - and he likes to stay up late at night - I can hear this when I am trying to go to sleep so I can get up at 5 am. There is a TV in his room and my wife has asked him to go in there late at night so as to not disturb us - he refuses!! Says it hurts his neck to lay in a bed to watch TV. I can tell you - he is not permanently moving in to my house when he gets older - life is just too short.



Aspydad, don't feel bad. My maternal grandmother was a smoker to the bitter end. both of my parents are non smokers and moreover have white carpet and light colored walls throuhout the house. 

I remember mentioning this to other people and many said, oh, your grandmother is not going to change her ways, as if there were something endearing about it. One of my mother's friends told me that my grandmother at first was defiant about it and sat on the stairs to the first floor smoking. I was a smoker at the time so every time I came to visit and my grandmother was there, I got blamed for smoking in the house even though that was not the case.

Finally, my father told my mother that she had to go. She had habits that he could not live with and bad attitude. 

what could have been the alternative....... that my parents divorced -- at the age 0f 75 -- so that my mother could live with her mother? In our situation, my mother did avoid having to wipe my paternal grandfather's a$$ (quite literally since I was told that my grandfather lost the nerves to control his bowels). So if you're looking for tit for tat........


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

I think the problem lies in the initial discussion concerning your dad move in. Your W believed this was temporary. Was it agreed upon by all parties this was temporary, permanent or assumed on both?

BTW, spouse first.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

It's a tough situation when parents get older.. I hope I die before I loose my mind , hearing and ability to do for myself, I've even prayed for that. because *I can not stand the idea of being a burden to ANYONE*.. not my husband, not my kids, I'd rather go live in a sickly old nursing home before I would go anywhere where "attitudes" didn't want me there.. but like I said.... I HOPE TO GOD I die first!

Heck If I held things against the Grandparents for not being there for our kids.... I would have had to shut them ALL out a long time ago... NONE of them, on his side or my side have come to events.. I hardly even invite them to birthday parties, It's always more about their friends.. 

Oh I can get my dad & Step Mom to a Graduation party, but that's about the most they are willing to show up for.. still a little shocked my dad was willing to come to a "Dedication service" for our daughter 12 yrs ago.. stepped inside a church..probably the 1st time in 30 yrs for him.

I've never held any of these things against them... they are still enjoyable to be around. We wanted all these kids.. they are surely too much to buy for - for Christmas & Birthdays...I've even asked the relatives to NOT buy for them.... 

But still.. a parent who hasn't caused his family ANY TROUBLE AT ALL over the years...wasn't interfering, chronic complainer, mooching...didn't expect you to live your life around them.. but just minded his own business... wouldn't this be superior to what some have to deal with -with inlaws !!

I mentioned annoying neighbors would be worse as I lived that crap.. rottweiler running in our yard...(had to put a fence up...idiots set the woods on fire twice- fire department next door... Drunk buddy of theirs wrecked his quad into our car , they didn't want to pay for damages..hit our fence... 

Yeah.. this old reclusive man.. sounds like a breeze.. .. I wouldn't hold anything against someone for NOT causing trouble.. but I sure as heck would for causing undue stress , money damages, safety concerns for my family !! 

At the end of the day...I guess we all look at things differently.. I wouldn't personally hold a grudge where Cletus's wife is, or so it seems to be about his not "being there" for the grandchildren.....I would find that very minor...


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

That's a tough situation but I agree that your wife comes first, although it does sound like your Dad is staying out of your wifes way. I too would have trouble kicking my Dad out of my house.

Here is one compromise, you two don't need such a big house, sell the house, move into a smaller house/condo/townhouse, telling your Dad you are downsizing so there won't be room for him in the new house and then since you are saving money by not having such a big mortgage or if your house is paid off you will have money in the bank and use that extra money to supplement his income so he can move into a nice place of his own. Wife is happy because your Dad is not living with you, Dad is happy because he gets his own place and you are happy because wife is happy, Dad is in a safe place and you don't feel guilty for kicking you Dad out of the house.


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## yeah_right (Oct 23, 2013)

H and I are only children so we have already discussed plans for our parents. My parents divorced and dad passed a few years ago. Mom and her new husband have plans in place for assisted living if/when that time comes. Mom does not want to live with me as she says I deserve freedom from being her nurse.

H's parents are divorced. His mom and step dad are nice folks and I could deal with them in the house with us...although we downsized to a much smaller home when the kids went to college. His father...not even allowed to visit. He's been a disrepectful d-bag to me for over 20 years (long story). H knows bringing him to live with us will never be an option.

I don't know your home dynamics, but remember, in a lot of homes the wife is doing a lot of the work that may go un-noticed. Cletus, Is your father doing all of his own shopping, cooking laundry and cleaning of his room, bathroom and kitchen when used? When my in-laws visit (usually two months at a time), they often leave messes for me, put things away in the wrong place, etc. They give me lists of groceries to buy, ask for help with paperwork, misc. stuff. They rarely go to my H with things like this. I do it because I don't want to be rude to my in-laws, and I know it's only temporary. Petty complaints, but after a long day of work, I enjoy coming home to a house in the same condition I left it. 

Also, a woman can't feel comfortable walking around in her own home naked or in jammies when the thought that her father-in-law might come out at any time. Men don't care about that stuff but women need to feel secure in their home. Not that he's a threat to her safety, but a threat to her comfort.

What are the plans when his health deteriorates? Cletus, will you be the one handling all of his meds, driving to Dr. visits, etc.?

If this was sprung on me as temporary and now permanent, I'd have a problem too. And I do really care for my in-laws (minus the d-bag birth father).


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cletus,

I've always found it useful to frame these things in a clear, concise way for your spouse. 


Even good spouses have compatibility issues. We have a compatibility issue that was a big deal to me. And ultimately I had to decide whether or not I could accept our incompatibility. 

This is like that for you. If you are willing to end the marriage over 
this, I'll accept that. 

And just to minimize any confusion on this point, if you make him feel unwelcome enough that he moves out, I'll move out with him. 





Cletus said:


> We may have found the rocks on which to founder our long marriage.
> 
> My father had a heart attack and quad bypass a couple of years ago. About the same time, he lost his house because he'd had to mortgage it to pay for his divorce settlement with my mother and could no longer afford the payments. I had a long standing statement that we would open up our home before making him live on the streets, which we did. I strongly believe in taking care of family when we have the means, and figured this was a helluva lot better than taking in my mentally ill mother when the time comes. I thought we'd dodged a bullet.
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think that last part sounds threatening, MEM. I don't think threats are healthy.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> It sounds your Father is abiding by ALL your rules, staying out of your hair...she only sees him minutes a day..
> 
> I think your wife is not taking into consideration the years He was there for YOU growing up....even if he wasn't the ideal father.. he sacrificed a great deal to hold the family together, food on the table- the challenges of a mentally ill wife is more than many can bear......


This is my position, and I've tried to articulate it, but it isn't being received. He doesn't have to have been the dad from the Courtship of Eddy's Father to earn 300 square feet of quiet living space. I do not believe in the nursing home solution for family until their needs exceed our reasonable ability to care for them.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

norajane said:


> What does your father want?
> 
> What are the alternatives?
> 
> ...


He is, as of right now, completely independent and healthy. He made lifestyle changes after his come-to-Jesus heart attack and is doing well. He already buys and cooks his own food, does his own laundry, takes his own medications and gets to the doctor under his own power. He is in absolutely no way a burden on anyone in the house, scout's honor. 



> Cletus, if this is important to you, draw your line in the sand, gently but firmly. In the end, YOU have to be able to live with your choices and actions. Will you be able to live with yourself if you kicked your father out and left him to fend for himself?


Not without a more substantial reason to do it. 



> I would expect my partner to respect that, even if they didn't agree with me.


For a partner to have my respect, they need to do this as well.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

End of life is similar to beginning of life, with the only real differences being that:
- old folks aren't nearly as cute as babies 
- their dependency trajectory is increasing, not decreasing and
- they have some amount of accumulated karma 

As such they deserve the same protections you would afford a child. 

Under duress Cletus's wife may tell her FIL that he has ruined their marriage. 

But this has nothing to do with ruining the marriage. I've seen this movie. What this is about is vengeance. He wasn't the grandfather C2 expected, and she's furious he's being treated well. The fact that he was a good father seems not to matter, since that didn't directly benefit her/her offspring. 




jld said:


> I think that last part sounds threatening, MEM. I don't think threats are healthy.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jld said:


> _So glad my in-laws live in France . . ._
> 
> Cletus, you have not exactly been totally satisfied with your marriage. Might it be time to move on, even with your dad in tow?


My only serious complaint in my marriage is in the bedroom. We have until now had perfectly compatible views of marriage, child rearing, obligations to spouse, everything - or at least, could find a compromise.

Perhaps that's why this is a little surprising, coming as late in the game as it has.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Cletus, I think you want to leave. You've known it for a long time. 

You see this as an "honorable" reason. But the other reasons were valid for you, too.

I think you should be honest with yourself and with her and talk very clearly about your feelings, even the sexually starved feeling you have. It was the reason for your ONS, right?

And, obviously, listen to her feelings, too. 

If you two cannot come up with a mutually agreeable plan, start divorce proceedings. Move out with your dad. See if she reevaluates how she wants to proceed. 

You can just be honest and act. You don't need to threaten anything.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Aspydad said:


> I am not saying let the Father go homeless. I see an indication that the Father could find another living arrangement. I doubt Cletus' wife wants the Father to be put in a homeless shelter. But, it does sound as if she has made up her mind that she does not want to live with him and my point is this - who is number one here? Wife or Father? If it is Father - my opinion is that there are other issues I don't know about in the marriage and that if Cletus ignores wife - this will be a big big problem.


There must be a point where a spouse's request becomes questionable. No one would condone murdering for a spouse, to use an extreme example.

My history with an irrational mother has shown me the necessity to push back on unreasonable demands, which I am perfectly willing to do. The great irony here is that I hold _him_ up as the example of how a weak spouse who attempts to pacify rather than confront can do as much damage as the on who cares too little. The only question is whether or not this demand is unreasonable, which right now I believe it to be.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cletus,

By far the worst 3 months of my marriage were triggered by:
- Daughter 21 facebook post that embarrassed and infuriated M2
- M2 demanding that we immediately cut D21 off financially 100% 
even though she was middle of a semester

I refused. 

All I am going to say about what followed is that M2 consumed 20 years of marital good will in 3 months. 







Cletus said:


> There must be a point where a spouse's request becomes questionable. No one would condone murdering for a spouse, to use an extreme example.
> 
> My history with an irrational mother has shown me the necessity to push back on unreasonable demands, which I am perfectly willing to do. The only question is whether or not this demand is unreasonable, which right now I believe it to be.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jld said:


> Cletus, I think you want to leave. You've known it for a long time.


I don't agree. I am not looking to leave, but I am not afraid of being alone. I am willing to let her decide that this is an unacceptable situation. I am not the type who desperately needs another person in my life for continued happiness, so leaving would not benefit me very much directly. 

The bedroom issues have sort of ironed themselves out. They no longer cause me any anguish. 

She's asked if we can seek counseling on the problem, and I'm fine with that. It would be our first time, because this is a problem for which a counselor might be a good fit.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Aspydad said:


> I am not saying let the Father go homeless. I see an indication that the Father could find another living arrangement. I doubt Cletus' wife wants the Father to be put in a homeless shelter. But, it does sound as if she has made up her mind that she does not want to live with him and my point is this - who is number one here? Wife or Father? If it is Father - my opinion is that there are other issues I don't know about in the marriage and that if Cletus ignores wife - this will be a big big problem.


And the alternative is dealing with the resentment fostered by kowtowing to an unreasonable spouse who asked you to kick your own unobtrusive father out of your house.

So how would the man have to deal with that? Sitting across from the breakfast table with the kind of person who badgered him into dumping his own papa?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Okay, here's another thought if you don't want to leave. 

Sit down with your wife and do intense active listening. Give as much empathy as possible to help her heal from the hurt she has from your father. Really reach deep into her heart for her hurt, period. There is likely some from you, too.

Be strong, Cletus. Really listen and empathize. 

Then share your own hurt. All of it.

In a healthy marriage, that is how it works. The husband and wife both have to hear each other. They both have to care. They both have to heal each other.

It takes some courage, but it is so freeing, Cletus. It is how to feel truly safe with each other.

If she cannot, if she will not, then please consider my post above. You will be freeing her for someone she could be naturally compatible with. And doing the same thing for yourself.

ETA: Okay, just saw your post above. Counseling sounds like a great idea. So glad she initiated it.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

IamSomebody said:


> Did you discuss this with your wife, exploring all options, before your father moved in? Or did you inform you wife this is how it will be because you made a promise years ago, before you met her. Sounds like you just brought your father in and did not even want to consider other options, including subsidized housing. *THIS* may be why your wife is so upset, she wasn't even consulted but had all this dumped on her.


Some of this is accurate. I thought it was clear at the time from 25 years of conversations that go "you know, one day we're going to have to take in a parent", and that day came. But the burden of clarity lies on he who presents the message, and apparently she does not agree that it was clear. We both operated on some faulty assumptions. 

I had thought that her frustration would dwindle when the reality of how low impact this would be became clear, but that hasn't happened.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cletus,

You've always struck me as someone who has a lot of common sense. 

You probably already know this, but since you haven't been in MC, I'll share some observations:

1. A good counselor will help you better understand WHY you and C2 are doing what you are doing
2. They will ask BOTH of you tough questions, for example:

Cletus, your dad is self sufficient, why aren't you insisting he find an apartment nearby?

C2, 
- your FIL was a good father to your H,
- this is clearly a huge loyalty issue to Cletus and 
- from a practical standpoint you have almost no interaction with your FIL. Why are you so angry / determined? 








Cletus said:


> Some of this is accurate. I thought it was clear at the time from 25 years of conversations that go "you know, one day we're going to have to take in a parent", and that day came. But the burden of clarity lies on he who presents the message, and apparently she does not agree that it was clear. We both operated on some faulty assumptions.
> 
> I had thought that her frustration would dwindle when the reality of how low impact this would be became clear, but that hasn't happened.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> There must be a point where a spouse's request becomes questionable. No one would condone murdering for a spouse, to use an extreme example.
> 
> My history with an irrational mother has shown me the necessity to push back on unreasonable demands, which I am perfectly willing to do. The great irony here is that I hold _him_ up as the example of how a weak spouse who attempts to pacify rather than confront can do as much damage as the on who cares too little. The only question is whether or not this demand is unreasonable, which right now I believe it to be.



Cletus, my late brother put his narcissistic wife first. For 20 years we hardly saw them and when we did the acrimony was thick in the air. My SIL hated my mother (with good reason I might add) but she took it out on all of us. It wasn't until she ditched my bother for greener pastures (that ended up ditching her) that my brother came back into our lives. Then he got sick and died. I will never ever forgive my SIL for keeping our family estranged.

My point is, her desire for distance was unreasonable and yet my brother put his wife first. 

My sister lives with us. But she has always been a treasured person to me and my husband. However, there are times my husband feels that the rest of my siblings should also be helping to support her, and they do purchase thing for her on occasion. She is in no way a burden, for right now. *But there will come a day when she will need daily care and it will fall to me to do it, and my husband to support me as I do it.*

Your wife's demands are unreasonable. While you Dad might not have been as attentive as she wished, he was not mean, not abusive and certainly not callous.

Your wife's possible fear of him needing care and that care falling to her (because of gender roles and expectations) is reasonable. So that is something to discuss and plan for.

I think you are right to draw a line over this. Having been on both sides of the fence, so to speak, I can tell you you will not be able to live with the guilt of abandoning a family member who needs help. I think it horribly cruel of your wife to expect you to do that just because her kids were not the center of your Dads attention.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Cletus, your dad is self sufficient, why aren't you insisting he find an apartment nearby?


Because it is less expensive to house him than to contribute financially.





> C2,
> - your FIL was a good father to your H,
> - this is clearly a huge loyalty issue to Cletus and
> - from a practical standpoint you have almost no interaction with your FIL. Why are you so angry / determined?


Because she is vindictive.


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## bravenewworld (Mar 24, 2013)

I guess I'm a little confused - if father is capable of independent living why not find him a nice senior subsidized apartment? (Not a nursing home, these are for people who can live independently.) He might actually enjoy having his own space and opportunities to socialize with people his own age. A good compromise would be him staying with you while he is on the wait list.

You say your father is unobtrusive, but I'm curious as to whether he does all his own laundry and cleaning? I ask because most of these duties tend to fall on the wife. Also, as one poster stated it is a bummer to rarely be alone in your own home and not be able to walk around in your jammies. It might be different if your wife was close to her FIL, but she's clearly not and you can't force it.


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## bravenewworld (Mar 24, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> MEM11363 said:
> 
> 
> > Cletus, your dad is self sufficient, why aren't you insisting he find an apartment nearby?
> ...


I don't see her as vindictive - she's not close to him and doesn't want him living in her home. That doesn't make her a bad person. Cletus and her clearly have different expectations and need to navigate them together. No one is "wrong."

Also - senior housing could be cost-free for OP and may include services such as a shuttle bus to the grocery store and free health checkups.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

My answer to the first would be:

1. Because I don't want him to be alone
2. I don't want him to feel unwanted

And even worse, given how he stays totally out of our way, it will be obvious to him that this is driven by hostility/malice and not pragmatic issues. 




Anon Pink said:


> Because it is less expensive to house him than to contribute financially.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Brave,

Did you read the bit where Cletus mentioned that his mother was mentally ill, so his dad was the breadwinner and the primary house parent?

So his dad hung in there and did it all, because he was committed to his family. It was neither fun nor what he signed up for. He just sucked it up and made the best of it. 

But C2 wants to walk around in her Jammie's - so he needs to go. 






bravenewworld said:


> I don't see her as vindictive - she's not close to him and doesn't want him living in her home. That doesn't make her a bad person. Cletus and her clearly have different expectations and need to navigate them together. No one is "wrong."
> 
> Also - senior housing could be cost-free for OP and may include services such as a shuttle bus to the grocery store and free health checkups.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

bravenewworld said:


> I don't see her as vindictive - she's not close to him and doesn't want him living in her home. That doesn't make her a bad person. Cletus and her clearly have different expectations and need to navigate them together. No one is "wrong."
> 
> Also - senior housing could be cost-free for OP and may include services such as a shuttle bus to the grocery store and free health checkups.


While senior housing might be an option, it's not always a very good one. The places I have seen are rather dreary. This is a man who has worked how whole life, acquired things he worked for, he did not arrive at this place as a result of neglect or poor decision making.

Cletus and his wife have, over 25 years together, no doubt established their feelings and expectations of the role of familial support. In fact, Cletus had been convinced they both agreed about the eventual need to take in an aging parent. One would think, given her dislike for The FIL, she would have made it abundantly clear that in no way would she allow this man more than temporary respite in her home. From all that Cletus has written, she does not strike me as the kind of woman who would NOT speak her mind. She also strikes me as the kind of woman who definitely KNOWS her mind.


Cletus, as much as I love my sister there are times when having someone else in the house is a bit of a drag. Like when the kids are out for the evening and we want to get crazy out by the pool, we have to be mindful of where my sister is. We can't have sex in the kitchen, dinning room or family room. But, this is not a limitation that would bother your wife in the least.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Brave,
> 
> Did you read the bit where Cletus mentioned that his mother was mentally ill, so his dad was the breadwinner and the primary house parent?
> 
> ...


Exactly.

What kind of man turns his back on a parent without some very very valid reasons? 

Because wife didn't get the attention she wanted? Not a valid reason. 

Privacy? Also not a valid reason.

If these are her reasons, I wonder what she predicts from her own kids when she has reached that age?

ETA: Sometimes we have to do things because it's the right thing to do. C2, for all her religiosity, seems to have neglected this aspect because it suits her at the moment.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Cletus,
> 
> You've always struck me as someone who has a lot of common sense.
> 
> ...


MEM's the man.


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## bravenewworld (Mar 24, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Brave,
> 
> Did you read the bit where Cletus mentioned that his mother was mentally ill, so his dad was the breadwinner and the primary house parent?
> 
> ...


But his Dad chose this person as a spouse and to procreate with - correct? You act as though he has no personal responsibility for the situation. It in fact, is what he signed up for. Also, not saving money for retirement is another situation of his creation. 

And it's not as trivial as "oh this woman wants to walk around in her pajamas." As an introvert personally, it's A LOT to have another person in my home 24/7. Even if they are in another room it's an energy drain and hardship for me personally. So I guess I can understand where she is coming from, especially if this is someone she's not close with. 

Now, I'm not saying kick him out on the streets. I am saying there are two people who are the homeowners/primary relationship and one does not want him permanently living there. Several of my family members have lived in Senior housing and they loved it. It was just a normal apartment complex for people 55+ with some extra services they enjoyed. My cousin use to love the casino trip one hosted on Saturdays. 

It's not like the only option is for him to live at the bus station - I feel like some posters are vilifying the wife's wishes and being overly dramatic.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Cletus,
> 
> You've always struck me as someone who has a lot of common sense.
> 
> ...


I'll take the opportunity to practice here.

1. Because I strongly believe in the obligation to care for our parents.
2. Because he stuck it out in a bad situation when I was growing up. I at least had a father, even a significantly flawed one.
3. Because we have the means and the space.
4. Because I will have to tell him to his face that he is being forced out by my wife for reasons that I don't find compelling - I will not protect her from her own decisions.
5. Because I strive to be the kind of person who thinks beyond his own desires to do what is right, FTMP, not simply expedient. I have fallen short sometimes on that, but it's still the goal. 
6. Because I'm the same person who took on the duties of raising your children, including coaching soccer teams 4 nights a week and all day Saturday, because they were important to us. 
7. Because he got a big bite of a shyte sandwich with my mother, losing half of everything he worked for while she never once in my entire life brought in a paycheck to the house nor did her share of upkeep, so he deserves a little justice. 
8. Because he did the same for my grandfather, moving him 3 thousand miles after my grandmother died. 

I won't dare to answer for her.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

bravenewworld said:


> But his Dad chose this person as a spouse and to procreate with - correct? You act as though he has no personal responsibility for the situation. It in fact, is what he signed up for. Also, not saving money for retirement is another situation of his creation.


I don't want to sound mean but your comment above is rather naive. 

The man is probably in his mid to late 70's which means he aged through the time period when social security and pension would be all he needed. Then the divorce happened and his retirement was cut in half. Should he, the man who took on the totally responsibility of caring for his son (or children... don't know if Cletus has siblings) when his wife became mentally ill, be held accountable for failure to plan accordingly?





> And it's not as trivial as "oh this woman wants to walk around in her pajamas." As an introvert personally, it's A LOT to have another person in my home 24/7. Even if they are in another room it's an energy drain and hardship for me personally. So I guess I can understand where she is coming from, especially if this is someone she's not close with.
> 
> Now, I'm not saying kick him out on the streets. I am saying there are two people who are the homeowners/primary relationship and one does not want him permanently living there. Several of my family members have lived in Senior housing and they loved it. It was just a normal apartment complex for people 55+ with some extra services they enjoyed. My cousin use to love the casino trip one hosted on Saturdays.
> 
> It's not like the only option is for him to live at the bus station - I feel like some posters are vilifying the wife's wishes and being overly dramatic.


Actually, it is totally as trivial as he space being invaded. The man is respectful and keeps to himself. He is not often seen outside of his given space. What possible burden could his presence create except the icky feeling of knowing there is a man living in a room that she doesn't like.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Because it is less expensive to house him than to contribute financially.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Anon you are usually pretty even handed. This does not make sense. We don't KNOW because he does not know. I know I would not want in laws in my house regardless. I would do it because that is how I roll. But we don't really know what is motivating her.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

bravenewworld said:


> But his Dad chose this person as a spouse and to procreate with - correct? You act as though he has no personal responsibility for the situation. It in fact, is what he signed up for. Also, not saving money for retirement is another situation of his creation.


No, that's not true. They married at ~20 before she started showing signs of mental illness. I don't know when he first got a clue, but it didn't become really apparent to everyone in the family until I was about 10. As for retirement, I think the plan was for the two of them to completely own the home and live on his pension and SS - until he had to mortgage the house for the settlement. 



> And it's not as trivial as "oh this woman wants to walk around in her pajamas." As an introvert personally, it's A LOT to have another person in my home 24/7. Even if they are in another room it's an energy drain and hardship for me personally. So I guess I can understand where she is coming from, especially if this is someone she's not close with.


This is the part I have trouble understanding, and I bet I can kick your ass in an introvert contest.

What is it about having someone down the hall with at least two doors between you that is a hardship? I don't get it.


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## bravenewworld (Mar 24, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I don't want to sound mean but your comment above is rather naive.
> 
> The man is probably in his mid to late 70's which means he aged through the time period when social security and pension would be all he needed. Then the divorce happened and his retirement was cut in half. Should he, the man who took on the totally responsibility of caring for his son (or children... don't know if Cletus has siblings) when his wife became mentally ill, be held accountable for failure to plan accordingly?
> 
> Actually, it is totally as trivial as he space being invaded. The man is respectful and keeps to himself. He is not often seen outside of his given space. What possible burden could his presence create except *the icky feeling of knowing there is a man living in her home that she doesn't like.*


I don't think your comment is mean. You are entitled to how you feel. However, I too think it naive to assume anyone else will be able and available to financially/physically care for you for the remainder of your years. 

Perhaps it's because I don't have children I don't have the luxury of assuming anyone will do so. Also, his father is lucky he lived an era that had pensions. No one is my generation will have that to fall back on. 

Regarding the bolded - yes, that is a completely trivial feeling for the next 10+ years of your life.


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## yeah_right (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm with Bravenewworld on this one, even though we are in the minority. As an introvert, having someone I do not like living with me would be rough. H knows this, knew it when we wed and agreed to spending his life with this introvert. 

I'm sorry that Cletus' father had a rough marriage. My mother was married to an alcoholic who once drove his car into a house and then walked to a bar down the street to keep drinking. Used to beat her until she finally left. That does not obligate my H to have to take her in against his wishes.

I've been married a long time too, and we have had actual conversations with detailed plans on what will be done with each of the parents. We've also talked over the years with each parent to know their wishes and needs. There's no confusion in my house over which stay is temporary vs. permanent. I think we are seeing in Cletus' case that perhaps their discussions over the years were not so clear. Just like marital boundaries and child rearing, the care of aging parents is something all couples should be planning for together. Let this be a precautionary tale for others.

I could easily see Cletus or his wife walking away from the marriage over this. And I wouldn't blame either one...except for not prepping for this years ago.


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## bravenewworld (Mar 24, 2013)

Cletus said:


> No, that's not true. They married at ~20 before she started showing signs of mental illness. I don't know when he first got a clue, but it didn't become really apparent to everyone in the family until I was about 10. As for retirement, I think the plan was for the two of them to completely own the home and live on his pension and SS - until he had to mortgage the house for the settlement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Look I can understand wanting a parent to live with you. I will definitely care for and allow my Mother to live with me when that time comes. I just truly believe both spouses have to be on board and it's something that's not fair to force on someone. 

Just because you don't understand it does not mean the feeling is not valid. I don't understand people who are afraid to drive at night, but just because I don't understand it does not mean they should be forced to do so.


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## Row Jimmy (Apr 15, 2013)

When inviting family members to live with you in a marriage situation BOTH spouses have to FULLY agree with the deal or you will have issues. 

Your wife clearly doesn't want to live her life like this. 

It doesn't matter if it's reasonable in your mind what her reasons are. She doesn't want to share her house and she shouldn't be forced to do so. I would not allow my wife to force me to live with my MIL as I have zero desire to lose my privacy. 

Good luck on finding a solution you both can both live with!


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

You've given your wife two **** sandwiches - your cheating & moving your father in. Maybe it isn't just your father that's eating at her but a combo.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

bravenewworld said:


> Just because you don't understand it does not mean the feeling is not valid. I don't understand people who are afraid to drive at night, but just because I don't understand it does not mean they should be forced to do so.


When I said I don't understand, I was asking for clarification. I do understand that I don't have to share a feeling for it to be real.

What is it that is so onerous? 

I'm not in the camp who believes that feelings are valid simply because we have them. I have lots of feelings that I think are valid, but I also have plenty that I work to actively overcome because I recognize that they are not grounded in objective reality.


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## bravenewworld (Mar 24, 2013)

Cletus said:


> When I said I don't understand, I was asking for clarification. I do understand that I don't have to share a feeling for it to be real.
> 
> What is it that is so onerous?
> 
> I'm not in the camp who believes that feelings are valid simply because we have them. I have lots of feelings that I think are valid, but I also have plenty that I work to actively overcome because I recognize that they are not grounded in objective reality.


Extroverts are recharged by being around people. Introverts are drained by being around others. I am an only child and personally need a lot of alone time to recharge my batteries. Having another person in my home - making noise, tinkering, moving around, etc. is something I find draining because it feels like I should be entertaining them. It's not something I can turn off. 

My home is my sanctuary (as another poster stated) and the energy of another person in it (especially someone I don't like) feels like a huge imposition. It can be like nails on a chalkboard to my senses. Seriously, it's that strong of a feeling. 

That said - when I was married I actually told my ex-h both of his parents were welcomed to live with us because I loved them and we were close. If I wasn't close to them or disliked them I would have felt very differently. And I would have expected him to respect that.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> You've given your wife two **** sandwiches - your cheating & moving your father in. Maybe it isn't just your father that's eating at her but a combo.


She mentioned that she thought our relationship was just entering a new and enjoyable phase when he moved in. The kids had recently left. We had the house to ourselves. She was looking forward to living with just me in the empty nest. And then it all went to crap.

All I can say is how, exactly, did it go to crap? We went on a three week vacation in Europe last fall - had a great time together. We come and go as we please, to all the same shows, events, and friends. We cook whatever we want whenever we want, drink a bottle of wine, watch a movie, work around the house with absolutely no interruption in our daily life. The only person who was wont to walk around naked in the house was me, and I can live with having to throw on a bath robe. 

Nothing in our life materially changed. Not. One. Single. Thing. So I need help wrapping my head around how this actually ruins our life together when as far as I can tell it does no such thing. It doesn't feel like a belated kick in the crotch.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I'd have to say the post below makes for quite the refreshing read. 

It's the first time we've ever seen Cletus at 'full throttle'. I kind of like it. I'm going to add one more piece to this puzzle. 

The completion to an otherwise flawless list would be delivered in my 'Jack Nicholson' voice. 

And last, but far from least is the small matter of female longevity. Since I expect you to outlive me, I intend to set a good example for our children regarding parental care. In a perfect world, I'd be able to tell them you fully supported this little adventure in elder care, despite the lack of shared dna with my father, and in spite of his failings as a grandfather. 

---------
Now this last bit - this is the stuff I script but don't speak unless it becomes absolutely necessary. 
---------

I accepted an imperfect world a long time ago. Given my determination to set a good example for treating aging parents well, short of a divorce I will never share a word of your true feelings on this matter with our kids. The last thing I want is to create a situation where they end up treating you, the way you want us to treat my father. 










Cletus said:


> I'll take the opportunity to practice here.
> 
> 1. Because I strongly believe in the obligation to care for our parents.
> 2. Because he stuck it out in a bad situation when I was growing up. I at least had a father, even a significantly flawed one.
> ...


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## Aspydad (Oct 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I'll take the opportunity to practice here.
> 
> 1. Because I strongly believe in the obligation to care for our parents.
> 2. Because he stuck it out in a bad situation when I was growing up. I at least had a father, even a significantly flawed one.
> ...


I get that you love you Dad. I do not envy your situation at all and probably would be just like you if my wife wanted my Dad out of the house when in my opinion he was not being intrusive. But the thing is my wife would have a reason for asking this and I would have an opportunity to either except or not except her reason. From all that I have read here - you have not communicated what your wife's reason is - and there HAS to be a reason. You job before any of this moves forward is to figure out what that reason is - hopefully counseling will do the trick.

Once this reason is identified - then at least you can address it.

If I live long enough, I just might end up in the same situation as your Dad. While I would live with one of my kids for a while - maybe if I was recovering from some type of condition as your Dad did - but, I would never place myself permanently into one of my kids marriages. I would be surprised with what you have described of your Dad if he would want to be a burden to your marriage (as of today that is what he is whether you like it or not) and it is not fair for him to be left in the dark with your wife feeling like she does. I bet your Dad thinks he is helping you guys out a little with the token rent.

By the way - I saw this play out with my neighbor across the street - his Dad stayed with them for a few years because of his failing health - the Dad got to a point were he just could not bare to be such a burden even though our neighbors tried to convince him that he wasn't - the Dad finally found a nursing home all on his own and left - he lived about one year after this.

Heck - I don't even want to ever be a burden to my wife - if I ever get to the point where I cannot take care of myself - I am going to check out into a nursing home.


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## Awe (Aug 16, 2012)

My wife and I have recently had a conversation around this topic.

I let her know that I am not okay with either of our parents living with us. Maybe on a temporary basis, but definitely not permanently.

I don't feel that a child owes their parents anything. A parent decides to have a child and support that child until adulthood. A child does not make that choice in regards to a parent.

FYI - I don't have a bad relationship with my mother (father is deceased) or my in laws. They are all nice people that I get along with just fine. But I do not want to live with them and I don't feel bad about it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cletus,

There's the mechanics of life and the intangibles. 

In terms of the mechanics, this is negligible. 

Often the single most important intangible in a marriage has to do with the relative importance of our spouse. Their importance in comparison to ourselves and everyone we know

In these situations, the truth is your friend. 

I dislike having to do this - but - under duress I do what needs doing. 

I ask M2 some variation of: Who's the most important person in my life? 

Version 2 of that is: Do you think I mostly put my needs ahead of yours? 

The answer to version 2 is always: NO

That's when I say: I just need you to do this for me

Once I've said that I'm kind of done talking. And I accept whatever consequences come from it. 





Cletus said:


> She mentioned that she thought our relationship was just entering a new and enjoyable phase when he moved in. The kids had recently left. We had the house to ourselves. She was looking forward to living with just me in the empty nest. And then it all went to crap.
> 
> All I can say is how, exactly, did it go to crap? We went on a three week vacation in Europe last fall - had a great time together. We come and go as we please, to all the same shows, events, and friends. We cook whatever we want whenever we want, drink a bottle of wine, watch a movie, work around the house with absolutely no interruption in our daily life. The only person who was wont to walk around naked in the house was me, and I can live with having to throw on a bath robe.
> 
> Nothing in our life materially changed. Not. One. Single. Thing. So I need help wrapping my head around how this actually ruins our life together when as far as I can tell it does no such thing. It doesn't feel like a belated kick in the crotch.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I have to say, I'm shocked at the level of self centeredness on this thread.

No one is being asked to care for a medically fragile senior. No one is being asked to reorganize their entire day and way of life in order to accommodate this elder.

Where the hell has compassion gone?

You people would actually allow a parent to live in a dreary run down institution (and government subsidized senior living is exactly that) when you have 4 open bedrooms and a home large enough to accommodate? And you see nothing wrong with that? You think your privacy is more valuable than doing the right thing?

The Me Generation at its finest.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Having a big house and separate living space makes a big difference. 




Awe said:


> My wife and I have recently had a conversation around this topic.
> 
> I let her know that I am not okay with either of our parents living with us. Maybe on a temporary basis, but definitely not permanently.
> 
> ...


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

My dad just passed away a month ago. My sister and I cared for my dad during the last months of his illness. He moved into my sister's home and I would go stay there to help care for him. He did not want to move in with us as he had always been very independent, but sometimes you have no other choice. We did not want to put him in a nursing home, although he volunteered to go on many occasions. I'm not going to lie, that sometimes it was very hard as he was very sick toward the end. My sister's husband as well as my husband supported my sister and I in taking care of our dad (thank goodness). For that I am grateful. If I had it to do over again, I would not change one thing. I loved my dad and enjoyed taking care of and spending time with him as best as I could. I know if the tables were turned, my dad would have done anything in his power to care for me if I had been sick or needed him to. No regrets.

I hope your wife comes around Cletus and you can work out an amicable solution. It would be a tough thing to do to ask your father to leave your home. I hope you are able to work something out so that you don't have to do that.


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## BrutalHonesty (Apr 5, 2015)

There isn't a way in hell i would kick my elderly parents out, if they behave appropriately and are harming no-one, for a woman. In fact, if a woman demanded this of me it would cut her presence in my house expectancy to rather short. 

This is probably a cultural thing, but my culture doesn't look kindly on abandoning the elder just because it is convenient. In fact, in my country, even charging rent would be scandalous. These are the people that raised you. They are the ones who (if they did their job, like mine did) slaved decades for you to be where you are. 

Now, if the relationship itself isn't that great to begin with it isn't even a question. Women can be replaced (dare i say, with improved traits) but blood family that has stuck by you is forever.


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## yeah_right (Oct 23, 2013)

We can sit here and beat each other up all day long. No one is going to change their opinion on their own personal beliefs. Can't judge each other because each situation is different.

Cletus and his wife need to sit down and have a heart-to-heart (with our without MC...it needs to be done soon). What needs to be discussed is the questions MEM listed earlier. But also plan for certain scenarios.

- What are plans if Cletus become too ill or passes while dad is still around?

- What happens when dad starts needing some nursing assistance, at least with personal needs such as bathing, laundry, dispensing meds etc. before it progresses to health issues? Not enough to justify hiring someone or putting him in a nursing home but enough that one or both of you needs to help. Who steps up to take on those jobs?

- What are options if dad begins to degrade mentally but still physically healthy?

- What happens if adult children/grandchildren have sudden bad circumstances and ask to live with you while dad is still around?

- What happens when you go on your next three-week vacation and dad falls and breaks a hip in the bathroom?

- What are your plans for housing when you reach that stage? Stay with the kids? If so, start talking to them now. Independent living? Start researching now.

Couples need to be having these discussions in their 30's and 40's before they are faced with things like this. Bottom line, major life decisions should be agreed upon together. No unilateral decisions. Unfortunately in Cletus' case, I see one spouse ending up very unhappy. Which one will it be?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I think the focus is on the wrong thing here. Not what to do about Dad, but how for Cletus and Mrs Cletus to get on the same page with a solution.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Beautiful post. 

These are fantastic questions. 







yeah_right said:


> We can sit here and beat each other up all day long. No one is going to change their opinion on their own personal beliefs. Can't judge each other because each situation is different.
> 
> Cletus and his wife need to sit down and have a heart-to-heart (with our without MC...it needs to be done soon). What needs to be discussed is the questions MEM listed earlier. But also plan for certain scenarios.
> 
> ...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

yeah_right said:


> - What are plans if Cletus become too ill or passes while dad is still around?
> 
> - What happens when dad starts needing some nursing assistance, at least with personal needs such as bathing, laundry, dispensing meds etc. before it progresses to health issues? Not enough to justify hiring someone or putting him in a nursing home but enough that one or both of you needs to help. Who steps up to take on those jobs?
> 
> ...



Excellent list of discussion questions!

I don't think it needs to be, nor should it be a win/lose situation. I just can't wrap my brain around either spouse expecting the other to abandon a parent in need. I see this not as win win or win lose, but responsible or irresponsible, as caring or cold.


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## yeah_right (Oct 23, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Beautiful post.
> 
> These are fantastic questions.



Thanks. I am lucky because H and I have discussed this at length with each other and with all the parents. We actually have to start rethinking plans because after the recent visit of the in-laws, we may have to consider alternatives if one of them passes. MIL stopped driving a few years ago. Simply refuses. Without FIL, she will be totally dependent on us for transportation to shopping, doctors, social times. FIL is starting to slip mentally...only noticeable to those that really know him, but it's a reality. We are reaching a stage where I may be like Cletus' wife and say no to one or both of them living with us permanently. 

Thank God H and I are TALKING about it now. I cannot stress how important it is that couples communicate about this reality.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

yeah_right said:


> Thanks. I am lucky because H and I have discussed this at length with each other and with all the parents. We actually have to start rethinking plans because after the recent visit of the in-laws, we may have to consider alternatives if one of them passes. MIL stopped driving a few years ago. Simply refuses. Without FIL, she will be totally dependent on us for transportation to shopping, doctors, social times. FIL is starting to slip mentally...only noticeable to those that really know him, but it's a reality. We are reaching a stage where I may be like Cletus' wife and say no to one or both of them living with us permanently.
> 
> Thank God H and I are TALKING about it now. I cannot stress how important it is that couples communicate about this reality.


I went through this with my mother. It was me sounding the alarm that she HAD to be coerced into a retirement community that also had assisted and nursing care. She was slipping and a danger to herself and others on the road.

Luckily, she had the funds to afford retirement living. If she hadn't...ugh I shudder to think she would have ended up with me until her mental capacity declined to qualify for nursing home.

Even though my mother was a nasty piece of work with lots of emotional issues, if she had lost her house I don't think I could have lived with myself if I had turned my back on her. It was brutal watching her cry each time I left the nursing home, begging me to let her come live with me. By then, her dementia was in full grasp and she needed 24/7 nursing care and still it killed me.


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## yeah_right (Oct 23, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Excellent list of discussion questions!
> 
> I don't think it needs to be, nor should it be a win/lose situation. I just can't wrap my brain around either spouse expecting the other to abandon a parent in need. I see this not as win win or win lose, but responsible or irresponsible, as caring or cold.


Honestly, if I thought I was the cause of any marital strife for my children, I would change my actions. I never want to create hardships for them. Life is already tough as it is.

I don't believe the word abandon is accurate here. The father is still in good health. My grandfather moved to an independent living facility when grandma died. He was a man of modest means (i.e. kinda poor) but was able to get a small suite that included all of his meals cooked, laundry done and transportation. Plus, he had social time with others who shared the same taste in music and life experiences. Heck, he started a band with the other "inmates". I actually feel bad for Cletus' dad being relegated to a back room where they see him for only five minutes a day.


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## yeah_right (Oct 23, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I went through this with my mother. It was me sounding the alarm that she HAD to be coerced into a retirement community that also had assisted and nursing care. She was slipping and a danger to herself and others on the road.
> 
> Luckily, she had the funds to afford retirement living. If she hadn't...ugh I shudder to think she would have ended up with me until her mental capacity declined to qualify for nursing home.
> 
> *Even though my mother was a nasty piece of work with lots of emotional issues, if she had lost her house I don't think I could have lived with myself if I had turned my back on her. *It was brutal watching her cry each time I left the nursing home, begging me to let her come live with me. By then, her dementia was in full grasp and she needed 24/7 nursing care and still it killed me.


And I think we have here a fundamental difference in where we are coming from. If your mom was not nice, plus added guilt...well, that's a different environment from me. All families had issues, but the parents that would be up for negotiation in my home are far from nasty. It's just a different perspective.

Also, my in-laws are from a different country and culture and they never want to impose or cause guilt on us...even if sometimes they can be quite annoying, as I'm sure I'll be to my kids one day.


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## bravenewworld (Mar 24, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Where the hell has compassion gone?
> 
> You people would actually allow a parent to live in a dreary run down institution (and government subsidized senior living is exactly that) when you have 4 open bedrooms and a home large enough to accommodate? And you see nothing wrong with that? You think your privacy is more valuable than doing the right thing?
> 
> The Me Generation at its finest.


Honestly, I found this post to be a bit offensive. As I stated, several of my family members lived in subsidized senior housing (THEIR choice) and the apartments were very nice. I should know, we visited often. It allowed them to have privacy, independence, and an active social life that wasn't always family related. (yes, seniors can still date!) 

Just because my family has done things differently than yours does not make us cold, uncaring, or part of the me generation. (Not exactly sure what that is?)

Yea Right asks several important questions. Great post!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

yeah_right said:


> Honestly, if I thought I was the cause of any marital strife for my children, I would change my actions. I never want to create hardships for them. Life is already tough as it is.
> 
> I don't believe the word abandon is accurate here. The father is still in good health. My grandfather moved to an independent living facility when grandma died. He was a man of modest means (i.e. kinda poor) but was able to get a small suite that included all of his meals cooked, laundry done and transportation. Plus, he had social time with others who shared the same taste in music and life experiences. Heck, he started a band with the other "inmates". I actually feel bad for Cletus' dad being relegated to a back room where they see him for only five minutes a day.


You're right yeah-right 

Assuming it IS abandonment or assuming there ARE fund enough for retirement living is something I should avoid.

Maybe they could find something adequate for Dad and maybe he might be happier there. 

Lotta maybes there that show other options might be explored better.

Cletus, you could tell your dad and wife that it's time to downsize. You get to move to a condo over looking a golf course while your dad moves into a modest efficiency in a retirement community and everybody is happy!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Would your dad and your wife be able to talk about the ways she felt hurt by his behavior, Cletus? Maybe with the help of the counselor? Sounds like some empathy on both sides could heal their relationship.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

bravenewworld said:


> Honestly, I found this post to be a bit offensive. As I stated, several of my family members lived in subsidized senior housing (THEIR choice) and the apartments were very nice. I should know, we visited often. It allowed them to have privacy, independence, and an active social life that wasn't always family related. (yes, seniors can still date!)
> 
> Just because my family has done things differently than yours does not make us cold, uncaring, or part of the me generation. (Not exactly sure what that is?)
> 
> Yea Right asks several important questions. Great post!


Your experience with subsidized senior housing was a positive one. Mine was a negative one (45 year old building that hadn't been properly maintained -- elevators often not working -- and was dreary and depressing). 

Circumstances vary.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

BrutalHonesty said:


> This is probably a cultural thing, but my culture doesn't look kindly on abandoning the elder just because it is convenient. In fact, in my country, even charging rent would be scandalous. These are the people that raised you. They are the ones who (if they did their job, like mine did) slaved decades for you to be where you are. .


It is a bit easier for us that are raised with it being an expectation that we assist in caring for our parents. We know all along as we grow up that this is the expectation and we accept and plan accordingly. Some of us even embrace it, I enjoy living in a 4 generation household. 

It makes it easier when we are beginning a relationship because we can state upfront that we intend to care for our parents in our home. So there is no surprises down the road. 

Cletus, that's a very difficult situation. I feel sympathy for all involved. I hope you can find a compromise.


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## bravenewworld (Mar 24, 2013)

Openminded said:


> Your experience with subsidized senior housing was a positive one. Mine was a negative one (45 year old building that hadn't been properly maintained -- elevators often not working -- and was dreary and depressing).
> 
> Circumstances vary.


Agree completely, that was the point I was trying to make. Circumstances vary - not all senior housing is bad nor are the people who lived in them uncared for.


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## bbqbeefkake (Apr 7, 2015)

I am a hardcore introvert loner type but I would not find the situation described being remotely bothersome. I have no reason to believe it is other than represented so I don't get it either but wanted to shed additional light on the discussion to address the introvert loner angle.

What this looks like to me is a control freak issue where the wife is a sore loser engaging in histrionics while the OP is a level-headed sincere pragmatist they may have a smidgen of passive aggressive tendencies simply for the sake of necessity and survival in a hostile environment of his unreasonable spouse. 

Lesser of two evils or alternative solution such as investing in a different place to stay or dividing the current quarters even more. 

Since it is the OPs dad, its on him to pay for it. 

I would choose my wife over my own need to be right even if I disagree because it is her home too. I would also protect my wife by taking the heat myself. Dad is the guest so he needs to go. 

I doesn't matter if it makes sense or not. If you love your spouse, sometimes you gotta take one for he team to express it. 

Unfortunately that might be all it is. Can you dig around in there to see if it's just a **** test or if she needs you to express your love. 

There was this young farmer pulling in the rope around the cows neck and the cows wouldn't budge. The mom comes out sticks her finger out so the cow could lick it and leads h cow into the barn. 

Finesse this thing instead of stubbornly digging. Play it like an instrument. 

Is any of this inspiring you OP? 

Best wishes


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