# Women are weak?



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Ok, so I was in a store heading to the men's wear department. A woman was in front of me going in the same direction pushing a shopping cart fairly slowly. She looked to be in her mid 30's but I'm not really a good judge. I wasn't in any particular hurry so rather than try to get around her I just patiently took my time. After a couple of minutes she started turning around and looking behind her. Then she stopped and told me in a very flustered manner to stop following her. I replied that I was just headed to the men's department and proceeded to go around her. As I passed her I heard her say "sure" in a very condescending manner.

When I got home I told my wife about what happened and she suggested that the women might have thought I was lewdly checking her out but more likely she was just afraid that a man was following her. I was a bit taken aback and asked her why she would be afraid. She said that women learn very early on that they are no match for a man when it comes to strength and that many men use that advantage to bully women. When she saw the look on my face she said that she knows I'm not that kind of man and that's one of the reasons she loves me so much.

So I have to ask, is that true? Are women conditioned to fear men? If you were in that situation would you have been afraid if you saw a big guy "following" you?


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Some women are....some men are. I have a woman at work who refuses to get on a elevator with another man and just two days ago refused to get into the work van cause one of the guys was eating a banana. This is a very blue collar jobs and it difficult to work around her issues with men.


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## Methuselah (Nov 24, 2014)

I don't know if women are conditioned to "believe" something or not. However, biology dictates women are usually smaller and do not have the muscle mass men do, hence are "weaker" (if that is your measurement).

This is different from having a victim mentality, though. A confident woman who knows how to take care of herself, either with self-defense classes, or the tazer she packs in her purse, and has nothing to "fear" from a man "following" her.


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## Gonna Make It (Dec 3, 2012)

richie33 said:


> Some women are....some men are. I have a woman at work who refuses to get on a elevator with another man and just two days ago refused to get into the work van cause one of the guys was eating a banana. This is a very blue collar jobs and it difficult to work around her issues with men.


I got to ask, what was the problem with the banana?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

bfree said:


> So I have to ask, is that true? Are women conditioned to fear men? If you were in that situation would you have been afraid if you saw a big guy "following" you?


Yes. I think she was really brave to have spoken up to you.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Gonna Make It said:


> I got to ask, what was the problem with the banana?


I could only speculate. I work for the government, they do not put up with any sexual harassment. She has a lot of issues and people stay clear of her and just do their work.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Your wife is right but the lady had a bad attitude.

My wife is five foot nothing and very petite. I make her carry a 9 at all times. There are real reasons women are often intimidated by men and have to be extra wary.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I think many women would be concerned about a man behind them if he seems to be matching their pace (especially if it's slow). I would have stopped to let you go around me if I had been uncomfortable but "alarm bells" go off differently for women who have had problems with men in the past or are just extra-cautious. Might be better next time to just go around.


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## CarlaRose (Jul 6, 2014)

bfree said:


> in a store
> heading to the men's wear department.
> A woman was . . . pushing a shopping cart
> rather than try to get around her I just patiently took my time.
> she stopped and told me in a very flustered manner to stop following her.


Your wife is right, but geez it's so obvious what happened that she didn't have to go into all that just to answer your question. Clearly, you were in a store like Kmart, Walmart, Target, or the like, so the woman thought you were security following her and watching her. It's a common occurrence and makes people uncomfortable. That's the reason she told you to stop following her and also the reason she responded by saying _"sure" in a very condescending manner._ She didn't believe your reason and didn't believe you WEREN'T following her when clearly you WERE following her. You just were not security and you weren't concerned with her or anything she did. Security would say the same thing you did or something similar. She knows they would not confess to following and watching her, so she didn't believe your response. 

Even though your wife is right, you do have to note that it goes against what the woman did. If she were frightened just on the basis of you being a man, she obviously would not have confronted you like that. Frightened women don't go around fronting men off like that. All she called herself doing was exercising her right to shop comfortably in a store without feeling like security was following her and looking over her shoulder.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bfree,

While on the surface it might seem that this woman was a bit paranoid, you don't know what her reality is. Let me explain.

If I am walking down a sidewalk and a man is walking towards me (no one else around), I cross the street. I similarly avoid men in places like parking garages, etc.

There is a reason for this.. it's part of PTSD. When I was 21, I had just arrived at my bf's apartment after work.. it was about midnight. I saw a guy walking down the sidewalk towards me.

I was getting my books (I was in college) out of the car when he walked around to the driver side of the car and asked me where some street was. As I was giving him the directions he started strangling me. We tussled. Because I was screaming so loud he had one hand over my mouth and was strangling me with the other. As he was strangling me, he was dragging me to an empty lot across the street.

Some neighbors heard me screaming and eventually come out. When the attacker saw them, he ran. I was pretty beat up by then.

So even now 45 years later, when a guy walks towards me in certain circumstances I experience a lot of fear. So I cross the street or otherwise change my course so that the guy cannot get near me.

I have other 'phobias' since that attack but won't delve into those here.

Usually I do not fear men. But yes I fear men under certain circumstances. 

This woman might have had something happen to her and, yes, she might fear men under certain circumstances. If she noticed that you were walking behind her, she was probably hyper vigilant. It sounds like you were matching your pace to her's. She might have slowed down, sped up, slowed down a few time and if you matched her pace, I can see her being concerned.

That's pretty indicative of being followed. Usually people do not match their pace with someone that they are not walking with... not when they can just go around that person. You might have been too close for her personal comfort.


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

bfree said:


> So I have to ask, is that true? Are women conditioned to fear men? If you were in that situation would you have been afraid if you saw a big guy "following" you?


Women are conditioned to fear men who are acting strangely. I was taught early on to be wary of a man who seems to be following me, and i would be more wary if he was bigger than me.

That doesn't mean women are weak. Anyone would be nervous about a big guy who seems to be following them. 

But from your description, i think this woman might have overreacted. She could have just stopped to see if you passed her.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> This is different from having a victim mentality, though. A confident woman who knows how to take care of herself, either with self-defense classes, or the tazer she packs in her purse, and has nothing to "fear" from a man "following" her.


It's not a victim "mentality" if you've actually been a victim. 

Like EleGirl, I will cross the street (if I can) rather than walk ahead of a strange man with my back exposed to the degree I can avoid it. I'll double back, and I'll step into a store for a moment to avoid it. Am I paranoid and fearful?

Maybe. But, I've also been mugged. And I don't really want to become a statistic with my autistic four year old accidentally shooting me, so I don't carry a gun nor have one in my home.

Now, does this bother me in a grocery story, no. Unless I get the idea you are store d!ck (AKA the security officer) dogging me for no reason. Otherwise I just tend to ignore you. 

So choices here include:

- She thought you were security, and didn't like the feeling of being accused of something

- She thought you were security, and didn't like not getting away with something (guilty conscious)

- She's experienced a past trauma and being followed is a trigger

- She thought you were being a creeper

Or who knows. But again, why does one experience with one person in one place speak volumes as to the mindset of half the human race?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Honestly, bfree, I notice women sort of looking back or from peripheral vision when I or many men are behind them in stores. I've seen them do it to others. Some of it depends on how you are dressed. Some is based on how busy the place is. I'm sure there are lots of reasons for fear of men. Let alone stuff that's actually happened, we have lots of stories of bad things happening to women all throughout the news and media of all kinds. There are very few stories of men stepping in to help women who are being attacked. 

When I read your post and thought about it a little, I realized what I do almost out of habit. If I notice myself sort of following a woman, or notice her kind of glance back, I make a turn and go down another aisle. I get off of her tail and go another way. I don't normally think much about it. I just do it. And, when I say notice myself following, I don't mean I am actively and consciously following. I have just been walking behind her for a little while. Men have to be very careful today, just as much as women.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

The short answer, I think, is 'yes.' Most of the men I know are also surprised at the level of vigilance that women feel out in public around strange men. Feeling defenseless in an isolated place is the worst, e.g., parking garages, dark streets, parks, driving in an unpopulated area alone.

Once when I was younger, I came home with a male friend. We walked in the back door and I reflexively dipped into the bathroom and checked behind the shower curtain. He laughed & I said, 'What, you don't do that?' He said, 'Check the shower for rapists? No, I don't. It never occurred to me.' And then we had a long discussion about the different feelings of safety that men and women have.

I think most women do, indeed, feel vulnerable because they are easily overpowered.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bfree, it might be interesting to ask women how many times in their lifetime they have had inappropriate and/or violent things happen to them while out and about. It think it would be very telling.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

I thank everyone for their responses. I am very sad to read how many women have dealt with violence from men. I guess I never realized how often it occurs. I haven't always been a good person but I have never ever had even the slightest thought of assaulting a woman. The mere suggestion just makes me so angry and distressed. It's utterly confounding to me that there are more men out there than I thought that do not feel as I do. Frankly I do not harbor any ill will toward the woman at the store. I was just completely shocked at her response. And I really was in my own little world while making my way toward my destination so I guess I was not aware of any perceived creepy behavior I was exhibiting. I never thought about her believing I was security. I certainly wasn't dressed a one might expect someone in that line of work be dressed. But maybe.

Elegirl, I suppose a poll inquiring about how many women have had something happen to them might be educational but I would probably get very depressed at the results.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> bfree, it might be interesting to ask women how many times in their lifetime they have had inappropriate and/or violent things happen to them while out and about. It think it would be very telling.


When I was younger, it was common. On trains, in buses, eating alone in restaurants. I remember being chased through the Frankfurt railroad station when I was 22 by two men shouting, 'You have nothing to fear.' Literally chased. I was running and they were running. Once on a night bus, the guy next to me started groping me - he was very aggressive & I had to shout at the bus driver. On a train in Italy, my compartment suddenly filled up with men who were physically very forward; a young Italian cop sat down next to me and told me that he would keep them all at bay. He flirted openly the entire trip and followed me off the train, only to come face to face with my husband, who was meeting me.

I used to do a three-hour commute through the mountains - pretty desolate. It wasn't uncommon to get a trucker on my tail who would follow me, sometimes tailgating at high speeds. In those pre-cell phone days, I had a CB radio to try to help, but it offered little comfort.

My father, brother, husband and male friends all said that they had no idea that there were so many men out there who were downright creepy or just aggressively flirty. They didn't do that and had no idea how many men acted that way.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

disgusting...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> When I was younger, it was common. On trains, in buses, eating alone in restaurants. I remember being chased through the Frankfurt railroad station when I was 22 by two men shouting, 'You have nothing to fear.' Literally chased. I was running and they were running. Once on a night bus, the guy next to me started groping me - he was very aggressive & I had to shout at the bus driver. On a train in Italy, my compartment suddenly filled up with men who were physically very forward; a young Italian cop sat down next to me and told me that he would keep them all at bay. He flirted openly the entire trip and followed me off the train, only to come face to face with my husband, who was meeting me.
> 
> I used to do a three-hour commute through the mountains - pretty desolate. It wasn't uncommon to get a trucker on my tail who would follow me, sometimes tailgating at high speeds. In those pre-cell phone days, I had a CB radio to try to help, but it offered little comfort.
> 
> My father, brother, husband and male friends all said that they had no idea that there were so many men out there who were downright creepy or just aggressively flirty. They didn't do that and had no idea how many men acted that way.


Yes, I've been through all of this as well. It's pretty common in places.

You talked about the train in Italy. I was on the train one time and young Italian Army guy got on and sat next to me. We talked for a couple of hours. (I speak Italian.) He was from Sicily. Then he announced that we were getting married. His military buddies came into where we were sitting, congratulating him, etc. It was pretty scary as there the place was packed with these guy and I had no idea what was going on.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ele, how did you get out of that?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Yes, I've been through all of this as well. It's pretty common in places.
> 
> You talked about the train in Italy. I was on the train one time and young Italian Army guy got on and sat next to me. We talked for a couple of hours. (I speak Italian.) He was from Sicily. Then he announced that we were getting married. His military buddies came into where we were sitting, congratulating him, etc. It was pretty scary as there the place was packed with these guy and I had no idea what was going on.


I'm assuming you got out of there...very scary.

The absolute worst case I remember for me was when I took a cab from JFK into Manhattan and the cabbie detoured onto a really, really isolated route. He was making dirty comments and I was terrified. I threw some money at him, jumped out of the cab at a red light and ran into a diner. (I am from NY and knew he wasn't taking a 'short cut,' as he said.)


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> Ele, how did you get out of that?


At first the guy was going to take me to his family in Sicily. The train was heading south. But he was supposed to get off at his military unit to check in a small down near Naples. So he & his friends got off the train, pushing me along.. I then promised that I would sit on a bench and wait for him. 

As soon as he and his friends were out of sight I go back on the train, which promptly took off.. thank goodness.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> I'm assuming you got out of there...very scary.
> 
> The absolute worst case I remember for me was when I took a cab from JFK into Manhattan and the cabbie detoured onto a really, really isolated route. He was making dirty comments and I was terrified. I threw some money at him, jumped out of the cab at a red light and ran into a diner. (I am from NY and knew he wasn't taking a 'short cut,' as he said.)


Now that's scary. I wonder how many women he did this with.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

This is one of the very good things about cell phones, in my opinion. It has made women feel safer. I doubt that young women today have the same sense of threat that we did even 15 years ago.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> This is one of the very good things about cell phones, in my opinion. It has made women feel safer. I doubt that young women today have the same sense of threat that we did even 15 years ago.


Interesting thought. I can see it helping in some situations.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> bfree,
> 
> While on the surface it might seem that this woman was a bit paranoid, you don't know what her reality is. Let me explain.
> 
> ...


OMG, Elegirl, I'm so sorry. What an awful, awful thing to experience.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

bfree said:


> Ok, so I was in a store heading to the men's wear department. A woman was in front of me going in the same direction pushing a shopping cart fairly slowly. She looked to be in her mid 30's but I'm not really a good judge. I wasn't in any particular hurry so rather than try to get around her I just patiently took my time. After a couple of minutes she started turning around and looking behind her. Then she stopped and told me in a very flustered manner to stop following her. I replied that I was just headed to the men's department and proceeded to go around her. As I passed her I heard her say "sure" in a very condescending manner.
> 
> When I got home I told my wife about what happened and she suggested that the women might have thought I was lewdly checking her out but more likely she was just afraid that a man was following her. I was a bit taken aback and asked her why she would be afraid. She said that women learn very early on that they are no match for a man when it comes to strength and that many men use that advantage to bully women. When she saw the look on my face she said that she knows I'm not that kind of man and that's one of the reasons she loves me so much.
> 
> So I have to ask, is that true? Are women conditioned to fear men? If you were in that situation would you have been afraid if you saw a big guy "following" you?


Some of it is conditioning and I think a lot is experiential. So many women experience rape, sexual harrassement, molestation, abuse, etc at the hands of men. Then again women are also blamed for those things. It seems like everytime they do a news story on rape, they are telling women how they can avoid rape. As if we can control that sort of violence. You might be able to fight off an attacker off but you also might get killed doing that. So yeah, you learn to be afraid that a man might be a rapist or a serial killer or whatever and that somehow you have to be responsible to stop that violence from happening. 

Who knows what was happening in that woman's head. I don't know. I wouldn't react that way in a store because I feel pretty safe in a store. But I don't know what her experience is. However, as others have said if I were walking down the street at night and saw a man on the same side of the street I would cross it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Pooh Bear said:


> OMG, Elegirl, I'm so sorry. What an awful, awful thing to experience.


Thanks for the concern. Yes it was horrible. It amazes me how something like that stays with a person.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Is there any wisdom you women, who have gone through this, can share with other women so there is less chance something bad will happen? Maybe this isn't worded very well, but my intentions are good.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> bfree, it might be interesting to ask women how many times in their lifetime they have had inappropriate and/or violent things happen to them while out and about. It think it would be very telling.


Someone could write a book. Of course, there is a play - The Vagina Monologues. That basically is about women's experiences of violence.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I've only felt the fear of a number of men in a bad neighborhood surrounding my vehicle.. while waiting for my H to return... but nothing happened, our baby son was in the car seat beside me...I don't think I ever prayed so hard in my life .. for them to just walk away..... To this day , we avoid crime areas if at all possible.. drive around them... 

I am not one to trust ANY strangers.. very mindful of what could happen...not wanting to put myself in a vulnerable position... cautious to my surroundings ..it's just something in the back of your mind..as a woman...or at least how I have always felt...

If I felt someone was too close for comfort or has been following me, I would slip into different isles, walk faster, whatever one could do to throw him off track. 

This woman surely over reacted as another pointed out -if a woman was in fear, she wouldn't have muttered something like that for you to hear....that wouldn't make sense to me, she sounded more annoyed. 

I surely don't think the majority of men are dangerous at all....the vast majority would be quick to help a woman, this I do believe.... but even if it's one out of 500...we have no way of knowing which ones may be rotten.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Thanks for the concern. Yes it was horrible. It amazes me how something like that stays with a person.


Of course.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

Pffft...I never learned to fear men like that (even after surviving CSA).

Yeah, sure biologically wise they have 40% more muscles mass, weigh more than women, taller...I've still dropped men twice my size and I can lift and transfer a man 3x my weight alone (work in private home health care) without a hoyer lift (it's all about body mechanics)

Every person is different, to me this is not a gender issue. Its a people issue.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> Is there any wisdom you women, who have gone through this, can share with other women so there is less chance something bad will happen? Maybe this isn't worded very well, but my intentions are good.


I think we need to train our boys how to respect boundries, how to be less violent, and how to be respectful of themselves and others.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

CantePe said:


> Pffft...I never learned to fear men like that (even after surviving CSA).
> 
> Yeah, sure biologically wise they have 40% more muscles mass, weigh more than women, taller...I've still dropped men twice my size and I can lift and transfer a man 3x my weight alone (work in private home health care) without a hoyer lift (it's all about body mechanics)
> 
> Every person is different, to me this is not a gender issue. Its a people issue.


Good for you. It is great that you have had a different experience. Yet, many, many women experience violence at the hands of men. Their experiences are just as valid as yours.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> At first the guy was going to take me to his family in Sicily. The train was heading south. But he was supposed to get off at his military unit to check in a small down near Naples. So he & his friends got off the train, pushing me along.. I then promised that I would sit on a bench and wait for him.
> 
> As soon as he and his friends were out of sight I go back on the train, which promptly took off.. thank goodness.


Your story reminds me of when I was thirteen. My sister and I had these two roommates (yes thirteen and yes roommates...I’ve had a different life, what can I say?). One night we were socializing all together. I am more outspoken and spoke out loudly I did about the traditions and customs (they were foreigners) in their home country that I didn’t agree with. 

Apparently that was very attractive to one of them because the next day he was asking for me to be his girlfriend. My age was important to note for a few reasons, one of them being my naivety in dealing with unwanted advances from men due to my inexperience. 

At the time, I was gobsmacked and didn’t know how to respond to a man expressing his romantic interest in me. It was unexpected and I remained silent.... only to find out according to him that silence/lack of response means “yes” in his country. 

Once I learned that cultural tid-bit, I seemed to find my voice which was a most emphatic “Hell NO!” I wish I could write this and say I was gracious about it but I’d be lying. In truth, I made myself quite clear. Needless to say, living there was awkward after that.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

Pooh Bear said:


> Good for you. It is great that you have had a different experience. Yet, many, many women experience violence at the hands of men. Their experiences are just as valid as yours.


I never said their experiences weren't valid at all in the least.

Don't put words in my mouth that didn't even pass into thought.

I refuse to let another person make me a victim. I refuse to live in fear of anyone. I refuse to allow someone to take from me my path in life because they were selfish inhumane a_holes.

Violence against women is a serious, valid and huge issue in today's society. It is still a people problem.

Yes we need to teach our sons personal boundaries but we also need to teach our daughters to enforce their personal boundaries and vice versa because violence against men is so rarely spoken of and just ignored by our society. People problem.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> I think we need to train our boys how to respect boundries, how to be less violent, and how to be respectful of themselves and others.


I do agree the long-term goal is that men would not attempt to harm women at all. Do you think that most parents and guardians of boys try to teach respect of women? Do you think that 100% of men will ever always treat women with dignity and respect? 

I wonder if the women who were attacked could share with other women any wisdom gained?


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

bfree said:


> So I have to ask, is that true? Are women conditioned to fear men? If you were in that situation would you have been afraid if you saw a big guy "following" you?


I would not say "conditioned to fear men" but I would say, trained to be cautious at all times, be aware of who is around and be proactive in keeping myself out of harms way. Better safe than sorry. My father is the one who taught me that along with self defense. He also assured me that no matter how strong a woman I am, it would be difficult for me to defend myself against a man. I have taught my 13 year old daughter the same. 

I don't think men can identify with being a young girl and being leered at. How uncomfortable it makes you feel, how cautious you need to be because of the creepers (as my daughter calls them). Most men don't know what it's like to be followed, in a store, the mall, the street or even in your car. It's frightening and it happens all the time. It's happened to me many times, it's happens to my daughter now.  That changes the way you behave and the precautions you take to ensure your safety, A cell phone doesn't take away that feeling of vulnerability if you are being stared at or followed. 

If I felt someone was following me too closely in a store my radar would go up and I'd most like just turn down a different aisle. If my daughter was with me I'd probably think he was looking at her and turn around to give him the death stare and my eyes would glow like a monster and he'd back off. That's a true story


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

CantePe said:


> I never said their experiences weren't valid at all in the least.
> 
> Don't put words in my mouth that didn't even pass into thought.
> 
> ...


I wasn't putting words in your mouth. You are coming off as a little angry and condescending in your posts. Maybe that is not what you intend.

I agree. There is violence against men as well. You're right. Violence is a people problem.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

coffee4me said:


> I would not say "conditioned to fear men" but I would say, trained to be cautious at all times, be aware of who is around and be proactive in keeping myself out of harms way. Better safe than sorry. My father is the one who taught me that along with self defense. He also assured me that no matter how strong a woman I am, it would be difficult for me to defend myself against a man. I have taught my 13 year old daughter the same.
> 
> *I don't think men can identify with being a young girl and being leered at. * How uncomfortable it makes you feel, how cautious you need to be because of the creepers (as my daughter calls them). Most men don't know what it's like to be followed, in a store, the mall, the street or even in your car. It's frightening and it happens all the time. It's happened to me many times, it's happens to my daughter now. That changes the way you behave and the precautions you take to ensure your safety, A cell phone doesn't take away that feeling of vulnerability if you are being stared at or followed.
> 
> If I felt someone was following me too closely in a store my radar would go up and I'd most like just turn down a different aisle. If my daughter was with me I'd probably think he was looking at her and turn around to give him the death stare and my eyes would glow like a monster and he'd back off. That's a true story


This topic has come up in a few threads here on TAM. In reply to women saying that things like being leered at, the cat calling, etc being unwelcome and even frightening at times, some (not all) of the men on TAM have said basically "too bad". Their take on it is that a woman has no right to not be harassed. And that men have the right to do it. 

Not all men do these things. But I guess that's the attitude of those who do. It's their right.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> I think we need to train our boys how to respect boundries, how to be less violent, and how to be respectful of themselves and others.


Agreed but I also think we need to teach boys how to channel their aggression. I believe that there are less opportunities for boys to use these outlets and aggressive tendencies tend to build up to unhealthy levels. I also think there is a double edged sword when it comes to equality of the genders. Young men need to learn that women deserve equal opportunity for growth and advancement but physical differences still exist and must be respected. I was taught never to hit a woman and that can exist side by side with respecting a woman's abilities and choices.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree that it's not fear of (all) men. It's the knowledge that there are some bad men out there. One bad man can prey on hundreds of victims. Since we have no idea which men (strangers) are good men and which are bad men women tend to err on the side of caution.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> I do agree the long-term goal is that men would not attempt to harm women at all. Do you think that most parents and guardians of boys try to teach respect of women? Do you think that 100% of men will ever always treat women with dignity and respect?
> 
> I wonder if the women who were attacked could share with other women any wisdom gained?


No. I don't. I think that many parents teach their boys to "be a man!" "Boy's don't cry." "Don't be a p***y." Being a girl is an insult. Why wouldn't men disrespect women? They are trained from an early age that they don't want to be a girl and they shouldn't have anything to do with "girlie" things. Someone I know was talking about how his boy wouldn't want to see Frozen. I didn't really know anything about the movie at the time but I thought, "Why?" I just watched it and I would encourage my son to watch Frozen. Why wouldn't a boy want to watch it? I think in some people's opinion that is because the main characters are girls. Therefore it is a "girls" movie and men and boys should have nothing to do with it.

I think that 100 per cent of people will not always treat people with respect. Some people are just jerks. However, I think we can change gender dynamics by training our kids to respect themselves and each other. So much of the violence against women is due to unhealthy gender roles. And so much male violence in general is due to the fact that we don't teach our boys how to express anger and pain in healthy ways.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> This topic has come up in a few threads here on TAM. In reply to women saying that things like being leered at, the cat calling, etc being unwelcome and even frightening at times, some (not all) of the men on TAM have said basically "too bad". *Their take on it is that a woman has no right to not be harassed. And that men have the right to do it. *
> 
> Not all men do these things. But I guess that's the attitude of those who do. It's their right.


Really? Wow. That is shocking to me.


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## Gonna Make It (Dec 3, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> This topic has come up in a few threads here on TAM. In reply to women saying that things like being leered at, the cat calling, etc being unwelcome and even frightening at times, some (not all) of the men on TAM have said basically "too bad". Their take on it is that a woman has no right to not be harassed. And that men have the right to do it.
> 
> Not all men do these things. But I guess that's the attitude of those who do. It's their right.


Those kind of guys have a name: pigs. A lot of us guys find the leering, the cat calls, the treating women like a piece of meat to be horrible. But yes, the pigs exist. I remember I was driving through Nashville last year and saw a billboard above an adult club. It simply said, "She is someone's daughter". I thought it was brilliant because that is how I look at women: that is someone's daughter or sister or wife. How would I like it if someone leered at my wife or cat called my sister or treated my daughter like a piece of meat? Answer, I would not so I am not about to treat someone else's wife/ sister/ daughter that way. And I am not going to stand for someone around me doing it either.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

bfree said:


> Agreed but I also think we need to teach boys how to channel their aggression. I believe that there are less opportunities for boys to use these outlets and aggressive tendencies tend to build up to unhealthy levels. I also think there is a double edged sword when it comes to equality of the genders. Young men need to learn that women deserve equal opportunity for growth and advancement but physical differences still exist and must be respected. I was taught never to hit a woman and that can exist side by side with respecting a woman's abilities and choices.


Totally agree that we need to teach our boys how to channel agression. And I don't think a woman should hit a man either. Abuse is never ok no matter who does it. You know they have done brain studies. There are difference between the genders but not as stark as we would like to believe. We actually inadvertently create stricter gender roles by the way we treat our kids from babyhood. Their brains develop and prune out what is not used. So if we don't talk to our boys or read to them as often, they become less verbal. If we don't comfort them when they cry they develop less empathy. So, while there are some differences we can also create those differences by the way we treat our children.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> Really? Wow. That is shocking to me.


It's disgusting is what it is. Just another indication that honor is sorely lacking today.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> No. I don't. I think that many parents teach their boys to "be a man!" "Boy's don't cry." "Don't be a p***y." Being a girl is an insult. Why wouldn't men disrespect women? They are trained from an early age that they don't want to be a girl and they shouldn't have anything to do with "girlie" things. Someone I know was talking about how his boy wouldn't want to see Frozen. I didn't really know anything about the movie at the time but I thought, "Why?" I just watched it and I would encourage my son to watch Frozen. Why wouldn't a boy want to watch it? I think in some people's opinion that is because the main characters are girls. Therefore it is a "girls" movie and men and boys should have nothing to do with it.
> 
> I think that 100 per cent of people will not always treat people with respect. Some people are just jerks. However, I think we can change gender dynamics by training our kids to respect themselves and each other. So much of the violence against women is due to unhealthy gender roles. And so much male violence in general is due to the fact that we don't teach our boys how to express anger and pain in healthy ways.


These are statistics from the United States.



> Today 1 in 4 children under the age of 18 — a total of about 17.5 million — are being raised without a father4 and nearly half (45%) live below the poverty line.5
> https://singlemotherguide.com/single-mother-statistics/





> The share of mothers who do not work outside the home rose to 29% in 2012, up from a modern-era low of 23% in 1999, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of government data.1
> Stay-at-Home Mothers on the Rise | Pew Research Centerâ€™s Social & Demographic Trends Project


So, 25% + 29% = 54% of children being raised mainly by women. :scratchhead:

I think many folks believe there is a rise in violence against women. I do not dispute that. If the surveys are correct, and I don't have any reason to doubt them, since they come from reasonable sources, why aren't incidences of violence against women becoming more scarce? 

Truly, I don't understand, and I am going to drop out of this discussion and just read the comments.

Edited to put those in quotes, only.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

Gonna Make It said:


> Those kind of guys have a name: pigs. A lot of us guys find the leering, the cat calls, the treating women like a piece of meat to be horrible. But yes, the pigs exist. I remember I was driving through Nashville last year and saw a billboard above an adult club. It simply said, *"She is someone's daughter". I thought it was brilliant because that is how I look at women: that is someone's daughter or sister or wif*e. How would I like it if someone leered at my wife or cat called my sister or treated my daughter like a piece of meat? Answer, I would not so I am not about to treat someone else's wife/ sister/ daughter that way. And I am not going to stand for someone around me doing it either.


I appreciate your support so don't take offense when I say this. But what if she is not someone's daughter? What she is just a human being who doesn't want to be harrassed? Does a woman have to be the possession of someone else in order to be respected?


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> These are statistics from the United States.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think it's a cycle that has resulted in a lack of respectable men teaching their sons to be honorable and moral.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

If anyone has ever seen a women's mixed martial art fight, then I would say women aren't that weak. Those chicks could drop most men with a single punch.

I think they're also a lot meaner than the guys. It's definitely a cat fight in the ring.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

bfree said:


> I think it's a cycle that has resulted in a lack of respectable men teaching their sons to be honorable and moral.


:scratchhead: With 54% of mainly women raising their children they have to rely on men to teach their sons how to be respectful of women? I'm....I give up.


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## Gonna Make It (Dec 3, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> I appreciate your support so don't take offense when I say this. But what if she is not someone's daughter? What she is just a human being who doesn't want to be harrassed? Does a woman have to be the possession of someone else in order to be respected?



OK, unless she came out of a test tube, she is someone's daughter. By the phrase "she is someone's daughter", I mean how would you feel if someone treated your daughter or anyone you loved with such disrespect? I would think you would not like it one bit. Because you have feelings for her. Just like you would not like it if someone treated your son with disrespect. I taught my children to treat people with respect. To think about how would they feel if they were treated the way they treated others. It is easier to get people to think about it in terms of someone they have an emotional connection to than it is to say "How would you feel if they treated Taylor Swift like that?" Well, I don't know Taylor Swift so I really would not give a rats behind how they treat her. But someone who cares for her would probably not like it.

Oh and I never called her a possession of anyone. You have this penchant for putting words in people's mouths. Might want to think about it a little more.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> These are statistics from the United States.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not sure that there is a rise. I think women over the past few decades have started to talk about it. Violence against women has gone on since the beginning of time and has sometimes been sanctioned by laws, religion, social acceptance. 

I'm not sure of the statistics. If 29 per cent of women are staying at home someone has to be the breadwinner. So that doesn't mean they are raising their kids alone. However, women can still hold values that require their sons to be he-men and pass them on to their sons. Boys also learn it from the outside society - other kids, teachers, coaches, etc. I don't ever want my son to feel like he is not good enough or has to overcompensate because he has to live up to some standard of what a man is supposed to be.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> :scratchhead: With 54% of mainly women raising their children they have to rely on men to teach their sons how to be respectful of women? I'm....I give up.


Are men and women the same? Do men and women react the same? Feel the same? Learn the same? Physically the same? Emotionally the same? Why is it hard to understand why boys might learn certain things better from a man that was once exactly where they are at that moment?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> These are statistics from the United States.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don’t understand why you added 25% and 29%. 

25% of children are raised with out a father in their lives.

The 29% are stay at home moms… not women raising children on their own.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bfree said:


> It's disgusting is what it is. Just another indication that honor is sorely lacking today.


It does not show honor being any more lacking today than it was in the past. There has always been a portion of men whose behavior is, piggish.

It's not more to day than I ever has been.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> :scratchhead: With 54% of mainly women raising their children they have to rely on men to teach their sons how to be respectful of women? I'm....I give up.


You added wrong. It's 25% of women who are raising children without a man around.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> It does not show honor being any more lacking today than it was in the past. There has always been a portion of men whose behavior is, piggish.
> 
> It's not more to day than I ever has been.


Maybe not. But I think there are less men that will speak up against that kind of boorish behavior.


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## Gonna Make It (Dec 3, 2012)

I would say, and this is strictly my opinion, that the pigs are getting called on it more nowadays. You see a pig make a comment and they get slammed on social media for it. Or you see people in their own social structure calling them out for piggish behavior like after the FSU game when the Ducks players were chanting at Winston "No means No". Yes they were doing it to get under his skin, but at least they are starting to actually challenge the neanderthal thinking that women are pieces of meat. And it is a start. That is one of the things I am proudest of my son for: he will not stand by and let a woman be treated badly. He is quite liberal and he and I often argue about a lot of things, but he is right to demand that people be treated with respect whether they are man or woman, straight or gay or transexual or bi. They are people and you should treat them the way you want to be treated.


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## Gonna Make It (Dec 3, 2012)

bfree said:


> Maybe not. But I think there are less men that will speak up against that kind of boorish behavior.


Please!!! Compared to any of the twentieth century?!?!? We have come a long way.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bfree said:


> Maybe not. But I think there are less men that will speak up against that kind of boorish behavior.


I disagree... look back at what it was like 50 years ago, I don't see any difference. There were plenty of boorish behavior like this back then.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

Gonna Make It said:


> OK, unless she came out of a test tube, she is someone's daughter.By the phrase "she is someone's daughter", I mean how would you feel if someone treated your daughter or anyone you loved with such disrespect? I would think you would not like it one bit. Because you have feelings for her. Just like you would not like it if someone treated your son with disrespect. I taught my children to treat people with respect. To think about how would they feel if they were treated the way they treated others. It is easier to get people to think about it in terms of someone they have an emotional connection to than it is to say "How would you feel if they treated Taylor Swift like that?" Well, I don't know Taylor Swift so I really would not give a rats behind how they treat her. But someone who cares for her would probably not like it.
> 
> Oh and I never called her a possession of anyone. You have this penchant for putting words in people's mouths. Might want to think about it a little more.


Of course, she obviously has parents, might have a sister, might have a brother, a husband. Who knows. 

And I really don't want you to take this personally because it is not about you. I am criticizing the notion that a woman should not be respected automatically without having to conjure up images of her family. 

I didn't say that _you, yourself_ said that she was a possession. But that is what that billboard means if you look between the lines. "She is someone's daughter." So what? Do we have to associate her with someone in order to respect her? Taylor Swift deserves respect as does any other woman who walks the planet. As well as any other man. But we don't see billboards saying "He's someone's son." Although obviously he is. Why is that? Because men just _automatically_ get respect. But women have to have parents, or sisters, or whoever, in order to be respected. Otherwise, what? All bets are off? We can't relate her to anyone so, therefore, she's not safe and that is as it should be? Do you understand what I'm saying? You seem to be a really good guy who is trying to be an advocate and I appreciate that. So, again, this is not personal. It's just that that billboard sets up a woman as someone's possession who cannot be touched. Therefore, she is safe.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

Gonna Make It said:


> I would say, and this is strictly my opinion, that the pigs are getting called on it more nowadays. You see a pig make a comment and they get slammed on social media for it. Or you see people in their own social structure calling them out for piggish behavior like after the FSU game when the Ducks players were chanting at Winston "No means No". Yes they were doing it to get under his skin, but at least they are starting to actually challenge the neanderthal thinking that women are pieces of meat. And it is a start. *That is one of the things I am proudest of my son for: he will not stand by and let a woman be treated badly. He is quite liberal and he and I often argue about a lot of things, but he is right to demand that people be treated with respect whether they are man or woman, straight or gay or transexual or bi. They are people and you should treat them the way you want to be treated.*


Yay for your son! I hope my husband and I can do as a good a job with our son. He is 9 months old and is the love of our lives.


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## Gonna Make It (Dec 3, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> ...But we don't see billboards saying "He's someone's son." Although obviously he is. Why is that? Because men just _automatically_ get respect.



BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! You have not met my wife. Or read very many of the threads where the wife is the WS! Because they all have something in common, they do not respect their spouse!

Sometimes your is a possession and sometimes it denotes a relationship to you. I used your to denote how the person relates to YOU!

As for guys automatically get respect, that is a very large pile of dung. Respect is earned for guys. You do not respect guys, that is why you are frightened by them, why you do not trust them. Because you have been conditioned to believe that because some are pigs it is better for you to treat all as pigs. Kind of like how I am always stopped by security going out of walmart. Because some are thieves and walk out without paying, I get treated automatically with no respect because I might be a thief until I prove I am not.

And it is why most BS are so guarded with their hearts. They have been conditioned to believe that the opposite sex cannot be trusted.

Some guys are pigs. Do I teach my daughters not to walk in dark alleys, not to take drinks from guys? Yup. Because I worry about them. But do I want them to be afraid to live life because their are creepers out there? No. Because they will miss out on so much.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

Gonna Make It said:


> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! You have not met my wife. Or read very many of the threads where the wife is the WS! Because they all have something in common, they do not respect their spouse!
> 
> Sometimes your is a possession and sometimes it denotes a relationship to you. I used your to denote how the person relates to YOU!
> 
> ...



I get it. You don't see your male privilege. So let me give you a few examples from a lovely blog I found and I will give you link so you can look at more of the examples. If you are interested.

"1. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore."

And I might add that oftentimes unattractive men are seen as cute or loveable. Never so for an unattractive woman. Male politicians never get judged on their looks. Female politicians often will be judged on their looks. And for God's sake, the question surrounding Clinton's candidacy for President was whether or not she could be a grandmother and a President. What? When has anyone asked that question? Never. 

"2. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a *****."

"3. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)"

"4. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he."

"5. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is."

"6. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male."

Even when a religion, such as Christianity, has a woman minister, she may be questioned as to her political motivations. Male ministers never answer as to whether they have a political motivation. Although some do.

"7. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me."

"8. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do."

"9. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.”."

"10. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment. " (Alias, a blog)

The Male Privilege Checklist | Alas, a Blog

There are many more. And, of course, white men have much more privilege than men of color.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I don’t understand why you added 25% and 29%.
> 
> 25% of children are raised with out a father in their lives.
> 
> The 29% are stay at home moms… not women raising children on their own.





EleGirl said:


> You added wrong. It's 25% of women who are raising children without a man around.






> So, 25% + 29% = 54% of children being raised *mainly* by women.


Even the 25% you are claiming does not account for the fathers who see their children every other weekend and/or one or two days a week. The majority of the responsibility for raising children, including boys, in those types of households, is mainly done by women. They are there in the most important developmental phases of life, far more than a father. That's why I added them together. And I know what the article claims. 

bfree, I got no idea what you are talking about. Sorry.


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## Gonna Make It (Dec 3, 2012)

I am not going to get in a pissing match with you, Pooh Bear.

But I will say this, believe it or not women are sometimes the abusers. That is the difference between a feminist and a humanist. A feminist thinks it is OK for women to be the abusers because of "male advantage". A humanist thinks it is never ok to abuse others.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

Gonna Make It said:


> I am not going to get in a pissing match with you, Pooh Bear.
> 
> But I will say this, believe it or not women are sometimes the abusers. That is the difference between a feminist and a humanist. A feminist thinks it is OK for women to be the abusers because of "male advantage". A humanist thinks it is never ok to abuse others.


Wow. You must have missed the several posts I have made on this site where I say abuse is never ok whether it is a man or a woman who does it. Feminism is not about abuse - it is about equality and empowerment for all people and sometimes that means those of us with more privilege based on race, gender, class, etc. have to learn to share power. I have privilege based on my race and I know that. I am a white woman. Oh well, have a good day.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> Even the 25% you are claiming does not account for the fathers who see their children every other weekend and/or one or two days a week. The majority of the responsibility for raising children, including boys, in those types of households, is mainly done by women. They are there in the most important developmental phases of life, far more than a father. That's why I added them together. And I know what the article claims.
> 
> bfree, I got no idea what you are talking about. Sorry.


The 25 per cent is not at issue; that says that 25 per cent of households have a single mother. So we don't know the percentage of boys in those households but we do know those households have a single mother.

It is the 29 per cent of stay at home mothers that's at issue. Either a.) These women saved enough at work before having a child so they could support themselves alone b.) These are households of lesbian partners c.) They are all being supported by welfare d.) There is a male partner in the house. 

It is possible that there are other possibilities but those are four main ones I can think of. A, B, C may be possible for a small number of this percentage. D is probably the majority though. Therefore, 25 plus 29 per cent of single mothers is not accurate. You are adding the 29 (stay at home mothers) per cent to the 25 (single mothers) per cent to come up with a total of boys only raised by women. That is not accurate.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

I would not have reacted the way the lady did however, your wife is target on. We learn from a very young age that we have to protect ourselves against men.

If this woman has ever had a threatening situation from the opposite sex that would explain her reaction to you.

Do not take it personally. She was looking out for herself.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

Pooh Bear said:


> No. I don't. I think that many parents teach their boys to "be a man!" "Boy's don't cry." "Don't be a p***y." Being a girl is an insult. Why wouldn't men disrespect women? They are trained from an early age that they don't want to be a girl and they shouldn't have anything to do with "girlie" things.
> 
> Someone I know was talking about how his boy wouldn't want to see Frozen. I didn't really know anything about the movie at the time but I thought, "Why?" I just watched it and I would encourage my son to watch Frozen.
> 
> ...


I can tell you that my son would not want to watch Frozen when he was a boy just as he didnt care to watch any of the Disney princess movies. Why? I caulk it up to his being a boy and it's perfectly ok if he does not care for movies involving princesses. Perhaps he can't identify with the main characters and therefore is not interested. Doesn't mean he hates girls or doesn't want to be associated with girlie things. 

Yes, I tell my son to "be a man!" That has nothing to do with disrespecting women, quite the opposite a man does not disrespect women. 

"Boys don't cry". I've never taught my son this, quite the opposite he taught me that he doesn't cry, even at funerals. And that's OK! That is the way he chooses to conduct himself doesn't mean he funnels pain in unhealthy ways or thinks that men can't cry. He can cry and he chooses not to in public. 

"Don't be a p---y". I've never actually heard someone say that to their son. But I have told my son to be strong, stand up and the MAN I raised him to be in the face of fear, defeat and anger. To take responsibility for himself and accountability for his actions. 

Does that make me a single woman raising a man capable of violence against women? My son has the utmost respect for women as he should, he lives with 4 generations of women. He is a man, not a woman and not genderless and I'm raising him to be a strong man. I understand that in today's gender neutral world I'm supposed to raise him to a strong person and exclude or marginalize the fact that he's a man. 

I choose to raise the old fashioned way as a man and a gentleman who opens doors, protects women, exercises emotional control as he sees fit and if doesn't care for princess movies, so be it. He likes to play football and that's ok. Doesn't make him a insensitive, a woman hater or capable of violence against women.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> The 25 per cent is not at issue; that says that 25 per cent of households have a single mother. So we don't know the percentage of boys in those households but we do know those households have a single mother.
> 
> It is the 29 per cent of stay at home mothers that's at issue. Either a.) These women saved enough at work before having a child so they could support themselves alone b.) These are households of lesbian partners c.) They are all being supported by welfare d.) There is a male partner in the house.
> 
> It is possible that there are other possibilities but those are four main ones I can think of. A, B, C may be possible for a small number of this percentage. D is probably the majority though. Therefore, 25 plus 29 per cent of single mothers is not accurate. You are adding the 29 (stay at home mothers) per cent to the 25 (single mothers) per cent to come up with a total of boys *only *raised by women. That is not accurate.


PB,

I hear you. The issue is that you and Ele keep misinterpreting me. I never said *only*. I said *mainly*. I think that's a fair assessment. I don't expect you to agree with me. I only ask that you have some consideration for what I have written. 

I know what you are saying. I know how the courts work in most cases of a divorce and child custody. I know how a stay at home mom works, since I was raised by one. I know how little a role the father generally plays in decisions with children. Mainly, in my household, he just talked with mum and backed her decisions. He was away from home more than mum and then doing things while at home, which I was not a part of. I know it's not exactly the same in all families, but it's pretty close. I think it's close enough. I really do think it's a fair assessment.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

The OP does does naive. As a teenage lad, I saw it was better to cross the road if a woman was walking on the same side of the street. Now I am older, it is less of an issue.

Again, this is a European viewpoint, where the masculinity issue is less pronounced.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My older daughter spent a month each in Paris and Rome last summer and none of that happened. She became a pro in using mass transit - never used it on the States - and had no issues... My younger is headed to a college town in France next summer, no issues expected either. I have lots of female relatives that have traveled or lived in Italy and they also reported little trouble... Maybe things have changed?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

The thread is an interesting read. Getting a little wild towards the end. I have closely known a few men who were raised only by their mother. I've never known one of them to be violent to women. I have seen them do some things that men generally don't understand and are uncomfortable with. In general Men need to be more than a role model to boys and young men. They also need to be mentors.

I was raised with the never hit women or girls rule. I was quite confused by the it's o.k. to hit guys thing. In the end I wound up in a ticklish situation where a young woman of near my age (16 - 18) hit me frequently. I was unwilling to avoid her so I used my skill at absorbing punishment without losing control. (that skill is very rare (cautionary note). 

Most men are defensive of those they perceive as needing defense. There is a theory that this is biological (herd behavior) as well as trained. Generally When I do something that might be "creepy" I'm being defensive. I also am getting better at avoiding looking creepy. 

It is not easy, but it is just good manners to try to make those around you more comfortable. If it means taking a less direct route to the men's department that's what we do.

MN


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> PB,
> 
> I hear you. The issue is that you and Ele keep misinterpreting me. I never said *only*. I said *mainly*. I think that's a fair assessment. I don't expect you to agree with me. I only ask that you have some consideration for what I have written.
> 
> I know what you are saying. I know how the courts work in most cases of a divorce and child custody. I know how a stay at home mom works, since I was raised by one. I know how little a role the father generally plays in decisions with children. Mainly, in my household, he just talked with mum and backed her decisions. He was away from home more than mum and then doing things while at home, which I was not a part of. I know it's not exactly the same in all families, but it's pretty close. I think it's close enough. I really do think it's a fair assessment.


These are facts not opinion. So what you are saying is that if children are raised by a stay at home mom, the dad is not really all that involved. So really the children are raised by a woman.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

coffee4me said:


> I can tell you that my son would not want to watch Frozen when he was a boy just as he didnt care to watch any of the Disney princess movies. Why? I caulk it up to his being a boy and it's perfectly ok if he does not care for movies involving princesses. Perhaps he can't identify with the main characters and therefore is not interested. Doesn't mean he hates girls or doesn't want to be associated with girlie things.
> 
> Yes, I tell my son to "be a man!" That has nothing to do with disrespecting women, quite the opposite a man does not disrespect women.
> 
> ...


It's actually not a gender neutral world. I'm assuming you have visited the baby section and the toy sections. We actually live in a very gendered society.

I will never tell my son to "be a man." I will teach him to be strong, respectful of himself and others, compassionate, hard-working, and confident. I will never discourage him from anything based on gender. If he doesn't want to watch frozen or any other movie that is completely ok. But I am not going to prevent him from watching those movies either based on some concept of what gender is supposed to be. I would do the same for a daughter. I want him to have all kinds of opportunities and I want him to be ok in_ his_ skin, not some societal image of what a man is supposed to be. 

People actually don't fit into those stereotypical gender roles. Some do and that is who they are. But I think most people are somewhere in the middle.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> The thread is an interesting read. Getting a little wild towards the end. I have closely known a few men who were raised only by their mother. I've never known one of them to be violent to women. I have seen them do some things that men generally don't understand and are uncomfortable with. In general Men need to be more than a role model to boys and young men. They also need to be mentors.
> 
> I was raised with the never hit women or girls rule. I was quite confused by the it's o.k. to hit guys thing. In the end I wound up in a ticklish situation where a young woman of near my age (16 - 18) hit me frequently. I was unwilling to avoid her so I used my skill at absorbing punishment without losing control. (that skill is very rare (cautionary note).
> 
> ...


That is not ok either. Women should not be hitting their significant other either. When telling our sons they should not hit a woman we should be telling our daughters the same. It is important to teach children healthy boundries and respect for themselves and others. Abuse is never ok.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

Pay attention to what you are doing. There are men who stalk women, men who have hidden cameras in their shoes to film under women's skirts in stores, and men who have other mischievous intentions. Some women have bad experiences with encounters with men. 

In my 56 years of living, I have encountered several unpleasant experiences that I'm wary of men getting too close to me physically. I've had a knife pulled on me by a man while in my college campus, demanding an explanation why I left him. I was quick with my tongue and ran like hell to the campus police station. This definitely shook me quite a bit. While a teenager, a man asked for directions, and pulled his fly to show me his penis. Today, I'm watchful of my surroundings. 

It is best to avoid unpleasant interactions as you have experienced. Don't "tailgate anyone", especially women. Your physical closeness may be a trigger of danger for some.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> These are facts not opinion. So what you are saying is that if children are raised by a stay at home mom, the dad is not really all that involved. So really the children are raised by a woman.


What facts? What you wrote or what was at the or what? :scratchhead:

If children are raised by a single parent, they may also be partially raised by the father as well as the mother. Just because she is single, doesn't mean the father is gone completely.

In a similar manner, just because the father is home when he gets home at six o'clock and the children go to bed at eight, doesn't mean he is not involved. 

Is that twisted enough for your liking?


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

Pooh Bear said:


> Someone I know was talking about how his boy wouldn't want to see Frozen.
> 
> I didn't really know anything about the movie at the time but I thought, "Why?" I just watched it and I would encourage my son to watch Frozen.
> 
> ...





Pooh Bear said:


> If he doesn't want to watch frozen or any other movie that is completely ok.


So if your son doesn't want to watch frozen its completely ok. But if someone else's son doesn't want to watch frozen then you question "why?" "Why wouldn't a boy want yo watch it?" You think that the other parent is is teaching his kid that he should have nothing to do with it because its girlie. Instead of being ok with the fact the the other child doesn't like princess movies.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> The thread is an interesting read. Getting a little wild towards the end. * I have closely known a few men who were raised only by their mother. I've never known one of them to be violent to women. I have seen them do some things that men generally don't understand and are uncomfortable with.* In general Men need to be more than a role model to boys and young men. They also need to be mentors.
> 
> I was raised with the never hit women or girls rule. I was quite confused by the it's o.k. to hit guys thing. In the end I wound up in a ticklish situation where a young woman of near my age (16 - 18) hit me frequently. I was unwilling to avoid her so I used my skill at absorbing punishment without losing control. (that skill is very rare (cautionary note).
> 
> ...


You sort of made my point. Thank you.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> I like CarlaRose's theory so much more for this situation.
> 
> I'm fairly paranoid about being followed as well and like Elegirl, I've had bad experiences with being followed and I take precautions.
> 
> Fear like that can happen in a store sure, but the response seems way more like frustration at being followed by security than a fear response.


I agree with your feeling on this.

Thankfully, nothing physically untoward has happened to me - although I have been followed home. I made it in to the secure entrance and ensured it was closed and locked just as he got there and wanted to be let in. That was a bit scary. 

There were a couple of guys being loud at the train station on the way home, going up to women and saying things. The main guy went up to a young girl sitting nearest me. She kept her eyes down at the floor the entire time as he got in her space, saying things to her. I looked over to see if she was okay. He saw this and made a beeline to me. Stood right in front of me, I was sitting down, so I stood and in response to something he said (I don't remember), I said something along the lines of, 'Oh, you're some kind of joker?' And what was strange to me was that I don't normally say things like that and the tone of my voice was not how I normally sound either. He stepped back away from me, saying 'Yeah, that's right baby, I'm a joker...' and walked away, left the platform. 

The other day, hubs and I were walking at a crazy slow pace. A couple behind us stepped in line with us. I thought it was odd and checked my phone was still in my back pocket and glanced over my shoulder. That's where my mind went. They were just in their own world and then passed us.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I too have had SEVERAL instances starting at the age of 4.

One minor one, but still struck fear in me was I went on a motorcycle ride in the mountains of Georgia with a date. We stopped under a tree to take a break from the road just outside of Helen, GA. This guy was 6'7"bodybuilder and I was all of 104 lbs at the time at 5'3" and I sat beside him, but he wasn't happy about it and with one arm lifted me off the ground EFFORTLESSLY and sat me in his lap. I felt like such a rag doll that the very first thought that went through my head was omg, this guy could really hurt me. I was scared.

The threat of being overpowered is very real and has been my reality more times than I like to think about.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Methuselah said:


> I don't know if women are conditioned to "believe" something or not. However, biology dictates women are usually smaller and do not have the muscle mass men do, hence are "weaker" (if that is your measurement).
> 
> This is different from having a victim mentality, though. A confident woman who knows how to take care of herself, either with self-defense classes, or the tazer she packs in her purse, and has nothing to "fear" from a man "following" her.


I read somewhere that the self defense classes give the women a false sense of security and putting them in situations they would have avoided previously. Confrontation should be the last step in the case of either genders. It is even more true if it is women.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> What facts? What you wrote or what was at the or what? :scratchhead:
> 
> If children are raised by a single parent, they may also be partially raised by the father as well as the mother. Just because she is single, doesn't mean the father is gone completely.
> 
> ...



You provided statistics. Those are facts. You are providing evidence that can be proven. So we could do studies to determine if the stay at home moms are the sole emotional support for the children. We could do studies to determine what learning the father provides in the households with the stay at home moms. You could say statistics can be skewed and they do not always provide all of the information. But when you are dealing with statistics you are dealing with facts. An opinion is "that single mom is not a very good mother." A fact is exactly what you provided, "25 per cent of mothers in the United States are single mothers." That is something that can be proven or disproven. If it cannot be proven it is not a fact. But all of the questions that you are asking could be studied to determine some factual information. True, the father could still be involved with a single mother. And the father could not be very involved in a stay at home mom household because he gets home at 6. But the kids are in school most of the day too so what does that add. Is the school raising the kids? It gets really complicated. But it can still be proven or disproven if we want to take the time to do the research. So none of us are probably right because we do not have all the facts.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

coffee4me said:


> So if your son doesn't want to watch frozen its completely ok. But if someone else's son doesn't want to watch frozen then you question "why?" "Why wouldn't a boy want yo watch it?" You think that the other parent is is teaching his kid that he should have nothing to do with it because its girlie. Instead of being ok with the fact the the other child doesn't like princess movies.


No. The conversation was between a wife and her husband. She said "let's take him to see Frozen" and he said "honey, he's a boy." As if that explained everything. Sorry, I guess I didn't provide all the information. So basically that is what I questioned. Why was he not ok with exposing his son to that movie just because he's a boy. I didn't say anything. It's their thing to work out. But it just made me think that things will be different for my son. 

I have read that toddlers go through a period where they are separating themselves by gender and they themselves pooh, pooh anything that is not of their gender and he may go through that. I think I am going to try to expose him to new things and help him to learn to be open minded while at the same time attempting to teach him that it is ok to have boundries and be who he wants to be. We will see. This parenting thing is pretty complicated.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I remember a friend posting proudly pictures of their sons- age around seven - posing with three Hooters waitresses, in those cute sexy shorts and boobs all around. What was that teaching those boys? And can you imagine the outcry about sexual abuse if these were seven years old girls posing with three cute guys in Lycra pants and baser chests? 

The most that happened ( rather it was popular thing around college and students areas) to me was guys getting off on exposing themselves to random women in parks or rubbing iwith their hard on in crowded public transportatio. You just rush past the first one, move from the other one and keep going.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> I remember a friend posting proudly pictures of their sons- age around seven - posing with three Hooters waitresses, in those cute sexy shorts and boobs all around. What was that teaching those boys? And can you imagine the outcry about sexual abuse if these were seven years old girls posing with three cute guys in Lycra pants and baser chests?
> 
> The most that happened ( rather it was popular thing around college and students areas) to me was guys getting off on exposing themselves to random women in parks or rubbing iwith their hard on in crowded public transportatio. You just rush past the first one, move from the other one and keep going.


Ick.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Pooh Bear said:


> That is not ok either. Women should not be hitting their significant other either. When telling our sons they should not hit a woman we should be telling our daughters the same. It is important to teach children healthy boundries and respect for themselves and others. Abuse is never ok.


Pooh Bear, It is a good thing she wasn't my Significant other, but dating my best friend. I think she was using physical violence to flirt with me right under his nose. She is long gone from both of our lives.



> You sort of made my point. Thank you.


2ntenuf, Just telling it like it was.

MN


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## Pollo (Oct 17, 2014)

Well, it's pretty obvious women will be cautious around men who are much bigger and stronger than them. Some of them probably have been through rough situations and some are just paranoid.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr The Other said:


> The OP does does naive. As a teenage lad, I saw it was better to cross the road if a woman was walking on the same side of the street. Now I am older, it is less of an issue.
> 
> Again, this is a European viewpoint, where the masculinity issue is less pronounced.


I don't understand what you wrote here. 

Why did you feel that it was better to cross the street if a woman was walking on the same side of the street as you? Or were you making a joke?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> My older daughter spent a month each in Paris and Rome last summer and none of that happened. She became a pro in using mass transit - never used it on the States - and had no issues... My younger is headed to a college town in France next summer, no issues expected either. I have lots of female relatives that have traveled or lived in Italy and they also reported little trouble... Maybe things have changed?


Now I find that funny. I lived in Italy for years and traveled to France often.. yes to include Paris and Rome. And those sorts of things were very common. They were common in Germany as well.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Pooh Bear said:


> These are facts not opinion. So what you are saying is that if children are raised by a stay at home mom, the dad is not really all that involved. So really the children are raised by a woman.


That's what he's saying.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Now I find that funny. I lived in Italy for years and traveled to France often.. yes to include Paris and Rome. And those sorts of things were very common. They were common in Germany as well.


It could be that she didn't tell her father about things like that, maybe. I wouldn't tell my father. I barely talk to my mother about things like that. It was years before I even told my mother I had been raped at 20.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> That's what he's saying.


Right. I said that to clarify.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> *Pooh Bear, It is a good thing she wasn't my Significant other, but dating my best friend. I think she was using physical violence to flirt with me right under his nose. She is long gone from both of our lives.
> *
> 
> 
> ...


It's a good thing you weren't dating her. She sounds pretty dysfunctional.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> This topic has come up in a few threads here on TAM. In reply to women saying that things like being leered at, the cat calling, etc being unwelcome and even frightening at times, some (not all) of the men on TAM have said basically "too bad". Their take on it is that a woman has no right to not be harassed. And that men have the right to do it.
> 
> Not all men do these things. But I guess that's the attitude of those who do. It's their right.


Another thing that pops out on those threads, and that I've noticed in real life as well, is that it makes men REALLY uncomfortable when women talk about being afraid of men. What usually happens is that someone pulls out stats to show that Crime Rates Are Falling and It is Safer Now Than Ever! 

And maybe that is true! I sure hope so! It doesn't change that women are simply physically weaker. 

**********long stories***********************

Back when I was a college freshman in the early 90s, I heard a statistic. It was something like "1 in 3 women have been at risk of sexual assault" or something like that. Most of my guy friends didn't believe it- but I asked and found that at least among my female friends, pretty much all of us had had at least one scare. Two of my friends had been outright raped when they were in HS or younger. Most of us had not been raped but believed we were close. 

I personally had two close calls before I was 20. The first, I was in a play when I was a junior in HS. Me and a guy, Joe, played husband and wife. We had a big scene in the 1st act, were the only two players in the 2nd act, and came in again at the end of the 3rd act to tie all the story lines together. 

So we left the stage at the end of the 2nd act, and went downstairs below the stage to get dressed for the 3rd act. We had Boy and Girl dressing rooms, but no locks, they were basically just two adjourning classrooms with doors. 

Everyone else was upstairs, either on stage or in the wings, for the 3rd act. We had about 15 minutes before we had to be onstage and no one else was downstairs with us. I was half-dressed getting into my 3rd Act costume when Joe came into the dressing room. I was in front of a mirror on the wall, and there was a long table a bench behind me (the room was usually an Art Class room), and he very easily cornered me. I was in shock- like, Hey! What are you DOING? And he just smiled and said something like "There's an audience full of people up there, keep it down" and moved very close, as if to push up against me.

LUCKILY! One of the other actors, a friend of mine, Tim, came running down the stairs and into the lounge/"Green Room" in front of the dressing room. He'd forgotten something, I have no idea what, but I called out frantically to him in as low a voice as I could but with him hearing it. 

"Hey! TIM! Come here!"

"Rose?" He stuck his head into the room and saw us. "What are you guys doing? Knock it off, there's a play going on! Have you seen [whatever prop it was he needed]?" And he looked at Joe strangely.

I got dressed VERY fast, grabbed whatever jewelry I needed, and ran up the stairs and stayed on the wings, asking my friends to make sure my costume was OK. 

So maybe Joe had no real ill intention, maybe he just wanted to have a look, who knows? I am glad I didn't get to find out. It sure looked and felt to me that he was planning on having a go of some sort and thought I'd keep it quiet because I wouldn't want to interrupt the play. As far as he knew I was a "Good Girl", honor student, certainly didn't date, etc and probably figured he could get away with it. 

I was tight with Tim and he asked me what happened. I told him I didn't know- Joe just came in and cornered me, and I was really he came downstairs! 

But it definitely startled me. Our entire school had less than 200 people so I knew Joe. He wasn't creepy, mean, leering, he'd never showed any interest in me, he wasn't unusual in anyway that I could tell prior to that incident. We'd also practiced that play every school day for two months- it never once occurred to me that I was alone with him downstairs while everyone else was upstairs. It probably only happened like that during our 4 or 5 performances. Maybe it had never happened before, I don't know. It made me realize that I had to open my eyes and pay more attention.

The other close call was much more defined. It was in my freshman apartment complex. I lived with two female roommates and three guys lived down the hall in their own apartment. They were freshman, too. We were all friends, they played bouncer at a party or two that we threw. We hung out regularly during the first few months of the school year.

I had gotten them each a small gift at Christmas, and rang them (I am so old!! No cell phones back then!) once I got back to the city after Christmas break to see if they were in. It was early evening and they were in. They invited me over.

I'd been over their place many times before, and went bounding in happily, "Merry Christmas! Here's a little something for you!" with my little gift bags. But something was off. I realized that they'd been drinking or smoking and they were looking at me differently. One of them asked if I'd broken up with my boyfriend while home for the holidays and was ready to start something up here, in school.

Then, another of them actually moved the couch in front of the door, blocking it. I knew I was in trouble. 

Once again, another man saved the day. My other roommate had also just gotten back to the apartment with her boyfriend. The apartment guys didn't know that though. 

So I brightly smiled and said something like "No, I am still with my boyfriend. You know, [Roommate] was just coming in as I was coming down- she has presents for you too. This would be WAY more fun with her here! Should I call her?"

I remember that they looked at each other and shrugged, and said, Sure! More the merrier. 

So I called her in front of them, and used their own words "Come on down! The more the merrier!" I knew her guy was staying the night and that he would never leave her to come down on her own- they were stuck to each other like glue. 

I asked for a beer, and one of them went to get it. It seemed like I had a little breathing room. She came down, knocked- they moved the couch. And in she came with her boyfriend. And just his presence was all it took. They opened the gifts, we all had 'Merry Christmas" and "what did you do over break" and "what classes are you taking this semester?" I left with roommate and her boyfriend, and never, ever went back there again. I told them about it once we were back in our place and we were all in shock.

Once again, I wasn't assaulted. But I am pretty [email protected] sure I was about to be. I had never before nor since had anyone put a couch across the door.

On my end, in both cases I knew the guys. Even looking back, I can't think of any signs to indicate that they were different, that they were bad guys. I would never have guessed that they would corner me. In my memory, two of the male roommates were eyeing me and the third was very clearly uncomfortable with what was going on. If my roommate and her boyfriend weren't available, I would have attempted to appeal to the uncomfortable one, to try to get him to let me out of there. Cops were never called, nothing was ever reported- what would I report? This is just one person's story, another nebulous statistic.

***************************************************

I think it's uncomfortable for guys to discuss this for a few reasons. 

One is, the vast majority of men are good guys. They would not assault a woman. But, if 1 in 3 women are victims of attempted assault, that suggests that a whole lot of men are NOT good guys. So there is some cognitive juggling there.

Another is that it is really vague to say "attempted assault." I believe that both of my cases were attempted assault or maybe aborted assault because someone happened to be available to save the day. But I suspect many people would disagree. I wasn't harmed or even touched in either case. They could have all been messing with me and would have stopped or let me go if I'd just protested. I never even said "No!". So maybe my experiences shouldn't count.

Maybe a girl who has had too much to drink and wakes up the next day after a blackout, next to a naked guy, also considers that as an assault. 

Or maybe a woman is at a bar and a really drunk guy is too flirtatious and gives her a disgusting drunken sloppy kiss- is that an assault?

I think at third reason is that guys also have their own fears and statistics. Women discuss being afraid and so many have us have been in scary situations vulnerable to men- yet probably near 100% of men have been in at least one fight and also have been physically hurt by another man. A drunk football player is going to be dangerous/capable of harm to both men AND women. Ray Rice is capable of knocking men as well as his wife. Since men have to be aware/alert of danger as well, and I think they are pretty much conditioned to be so, I think it can be difficult again to wrap their mind around why we women can go on and on about our own worries. They might not feel it is so different from what they themselves also live with. 

I suspect this is behind the"Get Over It" message. It's just that the world is Dangerous and it's true for Men and Women. Sure, women should have the right to walk without catcalls...men should also be safe to walk at night without being mugged. I could be wrong, though. 

Finally- I think there is a world of difference between now and my college time in the 1990s. I was watching the playoffs this weekend and saw the commercials "Domestic and Sexual Assault are hard for Everyone To Talk About"- and they are showing Men AND Women. Sure, the NFL is doing something to try to counteract the Ray Rice and other incidents- but it is still a good thing. I think there is MUCH more awareness now. May it continue!


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## DanaS (May 28, 2014)

RoseAglow I have noticed the same thing. I've been on forums where women post their stories of being stalked/harassed etc. and guys often come in questioning their stories or even saying they're lying. I don't understand it, even if they are good guys how can they be so blind to the way other men act, and why get so defensive? Why not acknowledge it? 

After all, if they are genuinely good guys then why should it matter to them how many guys out there do that kind of stuff? If they're good guys then it won't matter.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> That's what he's saying.





Pooh Bear said:


> Right. I said that to clarify.


I don't know why you both want to keep twisting my words to make me look bad.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> I don't know why you both want to keep twisting my words to make me look bad.



I'm not trying to do that at all! I'm sorry if you are feeling that way. We are just having a discussion.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> I'm not trying to do that at all! I'm sorry if you are feeling that way. We are just having a discussion.


So what do you mean by twisting what I explained?


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> So what do you mean by twisting what I explained?


I wasn't trying to twist anything. Just trying to clarify information. It's probably better to just end the discussion.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

bfree said:


> Ok, so I was in a store heading to the men's wear department. A woman was in front of me going in the same direction pushing a shopping cart fairly slowly. She looked to be in her mid 30's but I'm not really a good judge. I wasn't in any particular hurry so rather than try to get around her I just patiently took my time. After a couple of minutes she started turning around and looking behind her. Then she stopped and told me in a very flustered manner to stop following her.


First thing out of my mouth would have been "oh honey, don't flatter yourself, I'm just waiting for you to get out of the way."



> So I have to ask, is that true? Are women conditioned to fear men? If you were in that situation would you have been afraid if you saw a big guy "following" you?


Of course not being a woman, I can't answer that. I wouldn't blame her if this was out on the street especially at night and it was obvious you were following her on the street or something. But this is in a department store, full of people. If I were her, I'd have moved in a direction where, if she were really concerned about you following her, that if you were still behind her THEN saying something would have been appropriate. 

Who knows, maybe she has had bad experiences, but as someone who is entitled to shop and go in the same direction as her, it would not have changed my response back to her.

But then again, I'd have gone around. I'm not patient like that for people hogging the aisle.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> I wasn't trying to twist anything. Just trying to clarify information. It's probably better to just end the discussion.


I don't think you do have it clear or I would never have come back and posted about what you two determined.


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## Binji (Jun 25, 2014)

I think you made a social faux pays. You walked behind a woman for two minutes? That's a long time. I think the fact of the matter that she thought you were some creep or something really grinder your gears. You probably see yourself as a nice upstanding smiling citizen that everyone loves and she tossed you into the fear category.

I personally don't think she was a fault, I just think you had a slight misstep, but internalized it.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

vellocet said:


> First thing out of my mouth would have been "oh honey, don't flatter yourself, I'm just waiting for you to get out of the way."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Exactly. I'm all for safety and making your situation safe but what I never teach is people , men or women, to start a confrontation when none is needed. Had she done this to me least she would have gotten was a lecture.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Binji said:


> I think you made a social faux pays. You walked behind a woman for two minutes? That's a long time. I think the fact of the matter that she thought you were some creep or something really grinder your gears. You probably see yourself as a nice upstanding smiling citizen that everyone loves and she tossed you into the fear category.
> 
> I personally don't think she was a fault, I just think you had a slight misstep, but internalized it.


Well, as someone who does not routinely "follow" women, or anyone else, I was just surprised. If I were in a hurry I probably would have said "excuse me" and passed her. But I was pretty much in my own little world that day so I just leisurely strolled along. I don't think I'm upset that anyone thinks I'm not an upstanding citizen because given the things in my past I don't think of myself that way. I guess if I were to admit that I'm upset it would be because a woman does feel that way. She should not need to feel threatened by me or anyone else and it saddens me that she does. It should not be a social faux pas for me to walk in the same direction as someone else. I guess I feel that as a society we should have progressed passed that point.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Exactly. I'm all for safety and making your situation safe but what I never teach is people , men or women, to start a confrontation when none is needed. Had she done this to me least she would have gotten was a lecture.


I could tell by the tone in her voice that she was flustered. I was much too surprised to react.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Put yourself in women's shoes. 

Go ahead and read all of the history books and you will quickly learn that women's history is pretty horrific (not all of it, but certainly most of it). It's full of abuse, neglect and many other things. Heck, I would go as far as saying women were treated like slaves all throughout the history.

Sure we live in a different era now, but based on history....if I was a woman, you are damn right I would be watching my back.

Don't forget, even in the good ol USA.....Women were treated like 2nd hand citizens and weren't even allowed to vote until 1920s (that's only 85 years ago).

So, what you experienced there OP is simply natural human instinct.

If you are going to follow a woman, don't go too close. If you get noticed....take a different route to put her mind at ease. 

Be considerate.

As far as "woman are weak" topic. Personally I find women to be way more stronger when it comes to dealing with pain for example. Sure men might be stronger physically and overpower women, but that doesn't mean we SHOULD. And the truth is.....we HAVE used that all thru the history (which is really sad).


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

bfree said:


> Well, as someone who does not routinely "follow" women, or anyone else, I was just surprised. If I were in a hurry I probably would have said "excuse me" and passed her. But I was pretty much in my own little world that day so I just leisurely strolled along. I don't think I'm upset that anyone thinks I'm not an upstanding citizen because given the things in my past I don't think of myself that way. I guess if I were to admit that I'm upset it would be because a woman does feel that way. She should not need to feel threatened by me or anyone else and it saddens me that she does. It should not be a social faux pas for me to walk in the same direction as someone else. I guess I feel that as a society we should have progressed passed that point.


You know, I've followed along like you did before and not thought anything of it. It is one of my more patient days when I do that. Often I get frustrated if someone is plodding along and try to get around. I've also had people follow me like that and I am generally not comfortable with that so I try to let them go around. You just do your best to make people feel comfortable or make yourself feel comfortable. If someone misinterprets you can't really control that. You just do your best. You sound like a really good person.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

bfree said:


> I could tell by the tone in her voice that she was flustered. I was much too surprised to react.


The better and safer way for her was to step off to the side, back to a safe side, and let you pass and not say a word. Verbal stunning and being a hard target is a great thing, when you are ACTUALLY in danger. When your not you are actually starting a confrontation.

I can get you were rendered speechless. I think I could have been to if I was minding my own business and got a snotty comment out of the blue.


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## I dunno (Nov 14, 2012)

NUTS, I'm a eating them like some deranged squirrel at the moment, mainly cause I know I'm going to get shot at. Don't get in the firing line, if ya can help it, Happy Ducking xxx


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I do think she was a bit bristly about it and I personally would have gone along the lines of what Wolf is suggesting if I had been her especially if you were being super calm yourself and I would have just stepped to the side. But if someone ran up my tailpipe and was being impatient I would react differently. I don't cotton too well to rude people. Stronger men do not intimidate me as much today as in the past. I've gained a lot of personal strength as I hear many posters here have as well and it is good to see, but there is certainly something to be said for dignified, polite responses no matter how firm they may have to be. I have learned how to politely get in someone's face and dare them to back me down if they can all while maintaining personal dignity  There is a place and time for that.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

It is very common for women to be very nervous when getting off public transport at night without many people around. If a guy is walking behind, they will sometimes walk up the escalator quickly or exit briskly to shake the guy who is behind them. This is just normal preventative awareness.


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## I dunno (Nov 14, 2012)

Go round the place with an optimistic slant on things, I'm a red squirrel so my nuts are just fiiiiine, you see, it works! xxx


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## JustTired (Jan 22, 2012)

I have read this entire thread with great interest. I have been one of the few lucky (& I stress the word LUCKY) that nothing has ever happened to me as far as assault goes. I have been in situations in college where something could've easily happened to me due to my naivete.

Growing up my mother would warn me against men trying to _hurt me_. Since no one ever _hurt me _growing up, I was quite naive & very trusting. All of that changed when I became a mother though. When I am out with my 3 year old daughter, I scope everything out. My gaze is always up, I look everyone in the face & I walk with my shoulders back & spine straight. It's amazing how much "kick a$$ mojo" your child can give you...male or female - I will try to f*ck you up if I perceive any danger to me or my child.

With that being said, I don't treat every man I see as a potential threat. I have seen men deliberately change their course & cross the street as I am walking. It doesn't bother me, but I sometimes wonder if they were conditioned to do that. ;-)

My husband is a 6ft 5in, 255lbs black man with tattoos all over his arms. I'm sure many women would be intimated if they saw him walking down the street. I try to give men the benefit of the doubt in situations like this unless I get a really bad vibe (which hasn't happened often).

I think the woman in the situation the OP posted about over-reacted a bit. But, I don't know what she has been through in life that may have shaped her to react that way. If it were me, I would've turned into a different aisle....As long as I don't see the same dude following me to my car, we are good!


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

JustTired said:


> I think the woman in the situation the OP posted about over-reacted a bit. But, I don't know what she has been through in life that may have shaped her to react that way. If it were me, I would've turned into a different aisle....As long as I don't see the same dude following me to my car, we are good!


Yep, chances are high the woman OP ran into must've had some bad experience.

There is a GOOD reason why she acted the way she did.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> The better and safer way for her was to step off to the side, back to a safe side, and let you pass and not say a word. Verbal stunning and being a hard target is a great thing, when you are ACTUALLY in danger. When your not you are actually starting a confrontation.


Women have been taught not to worry about being polite if they feel uncomfortable or like they may be in danger. Women have made the mistakes of not crossing the street or running away or shouting because they didn't want to be impolite if they were wrong about actually being in danger. 

We risk impoliteness for safety now because we've been taught safety is more important being polite.

For this woman, or any woman, who thought a stranger was following her around in a store, she was better off confronting him while she was in the relative safety of the store than saying nothing and potentially letting him follow her outside to the parking lot where she'd be a lot less safe. 

Could she have handled it differently? Better? Sure. But she was flustered, thus, she handled it as best she could. I'm not going to fault her for being impolite if she was worried about who this stranger was behind her and and why he was slowly strolling along instead of passing.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

DoF said:


> Yep, chances are high the woman OP ran into must've had some bad experience.
> 
> There is a GOOD reason why she acted the way she did.


Most of us have had some bad experience, whether it be groping on the subway, harassment on the street, or assault and rape in a parking lot. If we haven't had those experiences ourselves, we sure do know family and friends who have.

We also know people who have been mugged and pick-pocketed while shopping, so it's not really shocking that someone would be wary of a stranger following too close for too long.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

norajane said:


> Women have been taught not to worry about being polite if they feel uncomfortable or like they may be in danger. Women have made the mistakes of not crossing the street or running away or shouting because they didn't want to be impolite if they were wrong about actually being in danger.
> 
> We risk impoliteness for safety now because we've been taught safety is more important being polite.
> 
> ...


Cannot disagree... 

Though self assessment is important

Safety is paramount

and I would rather a woman speak out if she feels unsafe even if its brash than to not speak at all in the interest of no offense

I just caution against making a bad habit of barking at people and hypersensitivity


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

norajane said:


> Women have been taught not to worry about being polite if they feel uncomfortable or like they may be in danger. Women have made the mistakes of not crossing the street or running away or shouting because they didn't want to be impolite if they were wrong about actually being in danger.
> 
> We risk impoliteness for safety now because we've been taught safety is more important being polite.
> 
> ...


Yep, I think the key for OP here is to not get offended by her words, but recognize the person and what they had possibly been thru and just turn >keep going.

It's not big deal really.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Advice to all women:
Get a permit and carry a gun. I used to be a big strong guy. Now, at 52 with heart disease I'm not so strong. I work downtown in a dodgy part of town. In the past, my stature and attitude was all I needed. Now, I need a little help from my friend in my pocket.
I've walked down some dark streets and encountered some very scary people. All I do is put my hand in my pocket and they KNOW.
Carry a gun and learn how to use it.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

DoF said:


> Be considerate.


Ok, so basically since she was going at a snail's pace and bfree was just being patient, he was being inconsiderate?

Wow, I'll remember to keep a 20 yard distance from all women in the mall from now on


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Blossom Leigh said:


> I do think she was a bit bristly about it and I personally would have gone along the lines of what Wolf is suggesting if I had been her especially if you were being super calm yourself and I would have just stepped to the side.


Exactly, that's all she had to do, step to the side. Then she would have seen he goes right on past her, minding his business.

Is it me? Call me nuts, but when I'm pushing a cart and preventing others from easily getting around me and its obvious I'm in the way, I either pick up the pace, or move to the side.
I can't imagine being in someone elses way and have the nerve to turn around and act like they are some sort of degenerate.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

UMP said:


> Advice to all women:
> Get a permit and carry a gun. I used to be a big strong guy. Now, at 52 with heart disease I'm not so strong. I work downtown in a dodgy part of town. In the past, my stature and attitude was all I needed. Now, I need a little help from my friend in my pocket.
> I've walked down some dark streets and encountered some very scary people. All I do is put my hand in my pocket and they KNOW.
> Carry a gun and learn how to use it.


Even better, don't put yourself into that kind of environment to begin with.

Here is my theory on guns.....to the T
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QrRurrsi74


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Ok, so basically since she was going at a snail's pace and bfree was just being patient, he was being inconsiderate?
> 
> Wow, I'll remember to keep a 20 yard distance from all women in the mall from now on


No, not at all.

Basically, if she is going at a snail's pace, OP should've past her and entire situation would've been avoided.

When I'm walking slow in the store and looking around etc and someone is walking slow behind me.......that's just weird, sorry.

Pass me or I will feel like you are watching me or I'm being followed.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

DoF said:


> Yep, chances are high the woman OP ran into must've had some bad experience.
> 
> There is a GOOD reason why she acted the way she did.


If she were on the street and being followed closely by a man, I could understand.

This was an indoor public place with, I'm assuming, plenty of people around, places get crowded, people block aisle ways, etc.

IF she had a bad experience, I sympathize and understand. But she should have taken into account her surroundings, taken a step to move to the side if she isn't making great progress moving her cart, and not treat bfree like he is some sort of rapist.

And when he told her he was going the same direction to the men's department, she could have just kept quiet rather than assuming, after his explanation, that he is some sort of criminal.

I'd be curious to know if bfree had stuff in a shopping cart and she could have realized that he was out, god forbid, shopping.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

DoF said:


> Even better, don't put yourself into that kind of environment to begin with.
> 
> Here is my theory on guns.....to the T
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QrRurrsi74


Sometimes you cannot control your environment, which is why I carry a gun.

Let me give you an example. I'm getting into my car, downtown, in the street. I open my car door and this guy comes out of nowhere headed straight to my open door behind me. I grab my gun turn around and look him straight in the eyes. He looks straight back, knew what I had in my hand, turned around and walked away. Glad I had my gun.

Another example:
Beautiful Sunday afternoon, whole extended family finished brunch downtown. Guy comes up to us asking for money, I reply "no thank you sir." He gets into my face and says " I have a .45". I reply with absolutely no fear "so do I ." He replies "why don't you shoot me?" I reply "get the f$ck away from me" He says "no" I stop everyone, tell them to turn back to hotel and call the police. He runs away. Glad I had my gun.

Another example, 
Homeless guy is stalking me at my business for weeks. I did absolutely nothing to him other than look at him once. He drops his feces right in front of our front door along with all his garbage under his trench coat. I call the police, run up and down the stairs etc. I have a heart attack and my first reaction is to flee (kind of like a dog). It's dark and raining as I am walking to my car clutching my chest in pain. The homeless guy is still there as I walk by. He spits on me as I limp by. I barely get to my car, call 911 and they haul me to the hospital where my heart stops beating. They shock me back to life and stuff in a couple stents. I was 99% blocked in the "widow maker" artery. When I got out of the hospital, I got a permit and bought a gun. Glad I have a gun now.

I'm at home on my 24 acre farm and see this guy with something in his hand walking in the woods. I grab my gun, jump on my rhino and chase him down. He runs through the woods and on the street waiting for his buddy to pick him up. Spoke no English, in country illegally, I corner him and call the police. They haul him off. He was roofing a new house behind our property and decided to see if he could rob our house. Glad I had a gun.

I got another funny one, although not really relevant. But I'll tell it anyway. I'm 10 years old riding the bus back from school back in the day (42 years ago) when no one had "backpacks". I would always sit in the back of the bus minding my own business and this kid would knock my books out of my hand as I walked out of the bus. After several times, one day, he did the same thing so I turned around and punched him in the chest. He fell back and said he would be visiting me soon. Later that day he shows up at my front door. I grab my dads 12 gauge Remington 1100 semi auto shot gun and open the front door. Just as the door opens I closed the action which makes a VERY loud noise. (gun was unloaded). His eyes got real big, he turns around and leaves, never to be heard from again.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

DoF said:


> No, not at all.
> 
> Basically, if she is going at a snail's pace, OP should've past her and entire situation would've been avoided.
> 
> When I'm walking slow in the store and looking around etc and someone is walking slow behind me.......that's just weird, sorry.


If you are out in the open with plenty of room to get around you easily, no small aisle ways, sure, I'd agree.

Maybe bfree could elaborate, but I've had to follow lollygaggers in a department store because they are blocking a main aisle without any consideration of anyone else. Could I have moved around them easily? Depends on the store. In some instances I'd have to back up and backtrack just to get around them.

What bfree should have done is say, "excuse me" so she could pull it to the side and let him pass in the path he intends to go.

Its like people on a 2 lane highway in the left lane not making any headway to pass the other car. Get in the right lane and stay there.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

UMP said:


> I stop everyone, tell them to turn back to hotel and call the police. He runs away. Glad I had my gun.


Love that!


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

vellocet said:


> If you are out in the open with plenty of room to get around you easily, no small aisle ways, sure, I'd agree.
> 
> Maybe bfree could elaborate, but I've had to follow lollygaggers in a department store because they are blocking a main aisle without any consideration of anyone else. Could I have moved around them easily? Depends on the store. In some instances I'd have to back up and backtrack just to get around them.
> 
> ...


Not disagreeing with that, I've been there. I either go slow or say "excuse me" and try to get around


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

DoF said:


> Yep, I think the key for OP here is to not get offended by her words, but recognize the person and what they had possibly been thru and just turn >keep going.
> 
> It's not big deal really.


I wasn't and am not offended. I guess maybe I was naive and never would have imagined how many and how much women can feel unsafe. When I asked my wife I figured she would say something like "yeah that woman has issues." My wife is a tad brash. One of the many reasons I love her. Instead she matter of factly stated that women routinely get uncomfortable in situations like that then went on to elaborate as I posted. I guess I was just shocked.


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## I dunno (Nov 14, 2012)

Mad people with guns, shoot, then ask questions. My, my xxx


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

vellocet said:


> If you are out in the open with plenty of room to get around you easily, no small aisle ways, sure, I'd agree.
> 
> Maybe bfree could elaborate, but I've had to follow lollygaggers in a department store because they are blocking a main aisle without any consideration of anyone else. Could I have moved around them easily? Depends on the store. In some instances I'd have to back up and backtrack just to get around them.
> 
> ...


Yup, I could have fit around her but like I said I was not in a hurry so I just casually strolled along lost in my own thoughts. I really just never thought about anything like this before. I never thought someone might feel like that. Like I said, I must be naive.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

vellocet said:


> If she were on the street and being followed closely by a man, I could understand.
> 
> This was an indoor public place with, I'm assuming, plenty of people around, places get crowded, people block aisle ways, etc.
> 
> ...


No I didn't have a shopping cart but I guess I always assumed if you are in a store you are probably shopping.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

bfree said:


> No I didn't have a shopping cart but I guess I always assumed if you are in a store you are probably shopping.


Definitely accurate to call that an assumption.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

norajane said:


> Women have been taught not to worry about being polite if they feel uncomfortable or like they may be in danger. Women have made the mistakes of not crossing the street or running away or shouting because they didn't want to be impolite if they were wrong about actually being in danger.
> 
> We risk impoliteness for safety now because we've been taught safety is more important being polite.
> 
> ...


I totally disagree. I have taught women's self defense since I was 16 years old. You never start a confrontation but you do end them quickly when the need arises. Verbal stunning and fighting back are always great tools and I recommend and teach them both. Never do I teach if you're unsure about a situation to AMP it up and cause a scene. In the scenario the OP described if he wasn't of calm demeanor that could have backfired big time. 

*People who have a tendency toward violence need very little reason to engage in it period.* Bottom line she put herself in more danger by acting the way she did. Next time she does that to someone not of calm demeanor she could likely get more than she is bargaining for. I'm not advocating for her to do nothing, the best thing to do is put your back against a safe area hands in front and up and wait for the person to go by. If they stop or engage then you can move to verbal stunning perhaps. 

A perfect parallel is the increase and frequency of road rage violence that is going up. It used to be some finger waving and honking, now people are getting shot. Reaction is important when a reaction is actually needed. Here she was the one that over reacted.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Now I find that funny. I lived in Italy for years and traveled to France often.. yes to include Paris and Rome. And those sorts of things were very common. They were common in Germany as well.



I have spent several weeks in Germany (Hanover and Munich) and found them to be far more reserved than we are. I saw Italy and France as you describe in the late 70's and early 80's. Not much since.

I suspect that it's happening but as tourists we are not seeing as much of it, playing it safe, etc. My daughter went around a lot alone in both (shopping orders from mom) but all in the safer areas.

Judging by the cat calls my wife received, Miami should be high on the list . But she does look Spanish (tho yellowish rather than brownish skin).


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

bfree said:


> Yup, I could have fit around her but like I said I was not in a hurry so I just casually strolled along lost in my own thoughts. I really just never thought about anything like this before. I never thought someone might feel like that. Like I said, I must be naive.


Well you explained yourself, but being an evil man it wasn't good enough.

Like I said, I'd either have told her to not flatter herself, or I would have explained, "you are in front of me, you are going slow, and I'm not in a hurry heading to the men's department"

And then if she said "Sure" in a sarcastic tone, then the "don't flatter yourself" would come out.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

bfree said:


> No I didn't have a shopping cart but I guess I always assumed if you are in a store you are probably shopping.


Letch!


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

DoF said:


> Put yourself in women's shoes.
> 
> Go ahead and read all of the history books and you will quickly learn that women's history is pretty horrific (not all of it, but certainly most of it). It's full of abuse, neglect and many other things. Heck, I would go as far as saying women were treated like slaves all throughout the history.
> 
> ...



Like this if you are strong independent woman who don't need no man.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DoF said:


> Even better, don't put yourself into that kind of environment to begin with.
> 
> Here is my theory on guns.....to the T
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QrRurrsi74


The guy is quite funny and a moron. Save your gun arguments for another thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

vellocet said:


> First thing out of my mouth would have been "oh honey, don't flatter yourself, I'm just waiting for you to get out of the way."


This is quite the telling statement, don't you think? It implies a whole bunch of misogynist things. First, it validates her fear that men are staring at her and objectifying her while she's trying to do something ordinary like shop. Then it goes solidly into normalizing this behaviour as though men are perfectly entitled to engage in it. It finally stops at judging her appearance and insulting it. The whole tone is one of condescending rudeness to a perfect stranger. I'm sure you would not have said that to a slow man ahead of you.



vellocet said:


> Of course not being a woman, I can't answer that. I wouldn't blame her if this was out on the street especially at night and it was obvious you were following her on the street or something. But this is in a department store, full of people. If I were her, I'd have moved in a direction where, if she were really concerned about you following her, that if you were still behind her THEN saying something would have been appropriate.
> 
> Who knows, maybe she has had bad experiences, but as someone who is entitled to shop and go in the same direction as her, it would not have changed my response back to her.
> 
> But then again, I'd have gone around. I'm not patient like that for people hogging the aisle.


Does she have to fear assault to be concerned about a man who seems to be following her? She is entitled to shop without being harassed by a man following her, apparently giving her special attention, possibly ogling her, and intending/thinking who knows what about her. She may have felt completely uncomfortable despite not actually fearing being physically hurt.

Some men DO get kicks out of getting women's attention in bad ways.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Yeah...

There's only one thing guaranteed in this life...

If I'm following behind you in the store, patiently waiting for space to move around and walk faster....

I'm probably checking out your ass. I mean...what else is there to look at. Sometimes...they are nice asses.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Wolf1974 said:


> I totally disagree. I have taught women's self defense since I was 16 years old. You never start a confrontation but you do end them quickly when the need arises. Verbal stunning and fighting back are always great tools and I recommend and teach them both. Never do I teach if you're unsure about a situation to AMP it up and cause a scene. In the scenario the OP described if he wasn't of calm demeanor that could have backfired big time.
> 
> *People who have a tendency toward violence need very little reason to engage in it period.* Bottom line she put herself in more danger by acting the way she did. Next time she does that to someone not of calm demeanor she could likely get more than she is bargaining for. I'm not advocating for her to do nothing, the best thing to do is put your back against a safe area hands in front and up and wait for the person to go by. If they stop or engage then you can move to verbal stunning perhaps.
> 
> A perfect parallel is the increase and frequency of road rage violence that is going up. It used to be some finger waving and honking, now people are getting shot. Reaction is important when a reaction is actually needed. Here she was the one that over reacted.



Good words.

I'll say it again...women aren't that weak. I just started martial arts training...and I get my ass kicked repeatedly during sparring classes...three times a week...by very slender, 5'5" "tiny" women weighing 1/2 of me.

Me: Fu(k this ****! I'm tired of getting flipped and thrown around like this! Enough already! Bring it on, little girl! I'm about to serve some payback!

.....

Me: fu(k! How'd I get on the floor again...on my back...with your scrawny ass knees crushing my throat like that! Fuuuuuu(k! Ok! Ok! I tap out already!

(both pizzez me off to no end....and increases my respect for these ladies.)


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

alphaomega said:


> Yeah...
> 
> There's only one thing guaranteed in this life...
> 
> ...


Truth! LOL!&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> This is quite the telling statement, don't you think? It implies a whole bunch of misogynist things.


No, if anything it implies misandry on the part of the person to whom the reply was for. Not because she might feel uncomfortable even though that was not the man's intention, but after explaining why he was following she should realize he was making sense, rather than STILL assuming he was a letch.




> First, it validates her fear that men are staring at her and objectifying her while she's trying to do something ordinary like shop.


Her fear, while I could sympathize if she suffered some bad experience, is her problem. If she wants to direct insinuating remarks, then direct them to someone actually doing those things.




> Then it goes solidly into normalizing this behaviour as though men are perfectly entitled to engage in it.


Engage in what? Shopping? The comment is about being behind a slowpoke and then said slowpoke assuming someone like bfree is a letch.




> It finally stops at judging her appearance and insulting it.


Nope. It is a statement about her possible heightened sense of desirability. I'd have said it to someone making that comment to me if she looked like Jessica Alba.

But hey, I see you don't really care about a man minding his own business being insulted as a possible rapist, creep or letch because she is the one that has the problem.




> The whole tone is one of condescending rudeness to a perfect stranger.


Oh, you must mean the rudeness of the woman to a total stranger, that stranger being bfree?




> I'm sure you would not have said that to a slow man ahead of you.


I doubt the slow man would have tried to insinuate I was a letch.

But if the man turned around and asked why I was following him, I'd explain to him the same way I'd have explained to her that I am headed in that direction, and he is going slow. You bet I'd say it.

I'm sure I wouldn't have to tell him not to flatter himself. Unless he has a phobia about gay men and thinks I'm one. Then I might have to say it.




> Does she have to fear assault to be concerned about a man who seems to be following her?


If she is concerned, she could pull off to the side, and see if he moves on by, or stops and stares at her. Then maybe she could say something if bfree would have stood there staring at her like a creep.




> She is entitled to shop without being harassed by a man following her


He wasn't harassing her. That was just her perception with no valid proof whatsoever.

Perhaps you can ask bfree if, while following her, if he was staring at her like a creep. THEN you'd have a point here if he said yes.




> apparently giving her special attention, possibly ogling her, and intending/thinking who knows what about her.


Bfree was doing this? Where did he say that?




> She may have felt completely uncomfortable despite not actually fearing being physically hurt.
> 
> Some men DO get kicks out of getting women's attention in bad ways.


Ok, so you must think that bfree did this.

As far as me saying I would explain to her what I was doing and if she didn't believe me as if I'm some sort of letch, you better believe I'm going to stand up for myself at that point.

If I had been following her drooling my ass off and staring her down, which I wouldn't, then I'd be embarrassed and slink off. 

But I have a right to shop in a store and walk in a certain direction without harassing anyone, and say something to someone that wants to paint me as a creep. Sorry, aint happening.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

bfree said:


> Ok, so I was in a store heading to the men's wear department. A woman was in front of me going in the same direction pushing a shopping cart fairly slowly. She looked to be in her mid 30's but I'm not really a good judge. I wasn't in any particular hurry so rather than try to get around her I just patiently took my time. After a couple of minutes she started turning around and looking behind her. Then she stopped and told me in a very flustered manner to stop following her. I replied that I was just headed to the men's department and proceeded to go around her. As I passed her I heard her say "sure" in a very condescending manner.
> 
> When I got home I told my wife about what happened and she suggested that the women might have thought I was lewdly checking her out but more likely she was just afraid that a man was following her. I was a bit taken aback and asked her why she would be afraid. She said that women learn very early on that they are no match for a man when it comes to strength and that many men use that advantage to bully women. When she saw the look on my face she said that she knows I'm not that kind of man and that's one of the reasons she loves me so much.
> 
> So I have to ask, is that true? Are women conditioned to fear men? If you were in that situation would you have been afraid if you saw a big guy "following" you?


Some people are simply deranged and carry tons of mental garbage. 
I was driving around a parking lot trying to find a parking spot VERY slowly. I was at least 20 feet from a stop sign slowing to a stop from about 5 miles per hour. This lady crossing at the stop crosswalk jumps up, raises her hands and angrily yells STOP !! as if I was going to run her over. Nothing remotely close to that was happening. My entire family in the car saw this and we ALL started laughing because the ladies perception of the current reality was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off. All you can do is laugh, try to learn something, don't let it bother you and just move on.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

richie33 said:


> Some women are....some men are. I have a woman at work who refuses to get on a elevator with another man and just two days ago refused to get into the work van cause one of the guys was eating a banana. This is a very blue collar jobs and it difficult to work around her issues with men.


WHat a shame your coworker did not have another banana to offer her.

Maybe she is a fruit herself..... :scratchhead:


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## Brokenintwo48 (Jan 2, 2015)

About the post by the OP

The punk rocker in me has always had a sense of street smarts so I have been pretty cool in most weird uncomfortable situations. I think that most people get nervous because the media makes them so. When we constantly hear about this bad thing or that bad thing our danger sense goes into over load. I had a neighbor that was mugged in front of her home after she left the super market. She went around inventing stories that their were men watching all the women on the street we live on just waiting to do the same thing. It wasn't true, but she needed us to help her justify her fears, to make it seem like she wasn't the only victim that it could have been anyone of us on the block at any time. 

You really don't know what this woman has been through. She may have been stalked once or twice in her life or mugged or she is afraid of that happening. So it is best to just move on from what she said. All of us are different, and we react different. A man may turn around and think the same thing as that woman did. After all men are victims of the same crimes as women are.


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## I dunno (Nov 14, 2012)

There are plus and minuses to every situation, people can either like or hate you. If they don't like you, you're usually a threat, just continue and hopefully they will leave you alone and concentrate on someone else. It isn't nice but such is life, there's nothing like a battered old, moth eaten bear, irresistible. Keep toasty warm xxx


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## mam665 (Oct 20, 2012)

It could be that she just found it annoying to have the feeling of someone following behind her, regardless of who's male or female. It drives me nuts to have people following behind me in a store. I'm not rude about it though, I just move over so they will go around. It sounds to me that she was more rude than scared. If it were me I would've been more aware that I was in your way (I tend to be very aware of whats going on around me and often I see others in stores are in their own little world), and then I would have stepped aside so you could pass.


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## I dunno (Nov 14, 2012)

True, perhaps she's over reacting, all depends if it's a one off or whether it happens all of the time. The thing is to ignore it, people soon get bored. Stay snuggle warm xxx


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

mam665 said:


> It could be that she just found it annoying to have the feeling of someone following behind her, regardless of who's male or female.


Hmmm, its possible, but IMO highly unlikely especially after explaining himself to her and she didn't believe it.

Or maybe it did make sense, but didn't want to admit she was wrong and reacted in a sh!tty way.


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## I dunno (Nov 14, 2012)

Could be they wanted to talk, for whatever reason. I'd always check though, ya never know! xxx


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## mam665 (Oct 20, 2012)

What ever her reasons were I'd venture to say that you were not doing anything wrong, and she needs to ease up on her attitude. At least if I get annoyed when someone is behind me I realize its my own personal space "issues" and not anything that they're doing wrong so I don't snap at people. Sounds like you were being patient and nice.


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## I dunno (Nov 14, 2012)

If you're not sure about someone, back off. You don't have to be nasty, just keep your distance, they'll soon get the message. Always try to be nice, even if you don't get it back, you've seen your side of the contract through. It doesn't cost anything, be good xxx


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## mam665 (Oct 20, 2012)

Absolutely.:iagree:


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

bfree said:


> Well, as someone who does not routinely "follow" women, or anyone else, I was just surprised. If I were in a hurry I probably would have said "excuse me" and passed her.


Then you'd have been an ahole for being impatient and pushy


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## I dunno (Nov 14, 2012)

She might have had her skirt caught in her pants, all he wanted to do was to put it right. How many times have you heard 'that' one in the court room.L&H xxx


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Pooh Bear said:


> I get it. You don't see your male privilege. So let me give you a few examples from a lovely blog I found and I will give you link so you can look at more of the examples. If you are interested.
> 
> "1. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore."
> 
> ...


Let's say all these are male privileges for the sake of argument. What privileges really matter? If power is the means by which to direct self-determination, then the most objective measure of privilege is average life expectancy. Look at the immediate post-renaissance era, and you will see the landed aristocracy had the highest life expectancy. At the turn of the last century, 1900, the difference male and female life expectancy normalized for race was one year (1 year). Care to take a guess what it is today?

Ranked by life expectancy (you can find these stats anywhere):
1) White female
2) Black female
3) White male
4) Black male

Again, look at this objectively, what is clearly demonstrated is that gender privilege is more significant that racial privilege with respect to longevity. 

To be certain, there are gender and racial privileges as far as the eye can see. I am showing you how they add up. The very interesting fact is that men actively support female privilege to their own detriment. 1000's of years of survival instincts are very slow to change. (and the women's movement did a very good job of obfuscating the facts).

Take the most significant male privilege in your list.. now tell me how it compares to not losing your life in military combat. 
 Vietnam War Statistics

Statistics from, "The Myth of Male Power". 
Bibliography pp 373-475 (yes, that's over 100 pages of studies referenced)


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## I dunno (Nov 14, 2012)

In other words, if you can defrost the car then you're in with a bit of a chance. Snappy weather doesn't always equate to a snappy woman, stay safe and warm xxx


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