# Infidelity and No Win Situations



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Before I was shipped off to banned camp, I was on a thread which had a woman who had a ONS.

That, obviously is totally wrong. She inflicted this information on her friend, who should not have had to bear the responsibility. It was a choice. She needed to vent and she was according to all reports, torn up with guilt.

Now, unless you assume that her communication in confidence to a trusted friend is automatically a lie, we are stuck with the fact that these are her true feelings.

Here is the rub:

Hubby arbitrarily stated to his wife that if she cheated, she was history. Period. End of Sentence. End of Marriage.

Now...he can make that choice. But I can't help but feel that she is now stuck in a no win situation. Yes, she should never have cheated. Please don't bother discussing that because it isn't interesting in this discussion.

HOWEVER...if you can believe that people can make mistakes, regret mistakes, and perhaps change...what exactly is she supposed to do?

If she tells the truth, she doesn't have a marriage according to her beliefs. So if she tells the truth, she is leaving a marriage she (again, according to her) desperate to keep together.

So...she lies and has to 'continue to lie'. Some characterize this as not serious remorse and cake eating.

If she had a sense that she could tell and perhaps maintain her marriage, I get a sense she would.

She doesn't have those assurances.

This strikes home to me because my wife and I both shared these sentiments with each other. But having reviewed her situation, I am struck with how this shuts down both Reconcilliation and discussion. If one make a 'mistake' one is forced to lie.

Yes, better not to cheat to begin with. Let us not belabor the obvious.

What are your thoughts? I am stuck.


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

It's a fact that in order to come clean you must tell the truth. 

I often said "if my wife ever cheated i'm done. That's it." yet the reality of kids, bills and the rest makes the waters murky. 

Either way, by not telling the truth it takes the choice away. And so the relationship becomes held together by lies. I don't think anyone would agree that's a good idea. 

In hindsight, had my wife self corrected and told me without me finding out, it would have made a world of difference. 

In order to prove that they _really are a different person_ they must come clean and accept the consequences. By not doing so, they prove they are still capable of deception. 

They cannot apologize without the betrayed knowing what they must forgive (or not). And cheating is something that must be apologized for.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

JCD said:


> Before I was shipped off to banned camp, I was on a thread which had a woman who had a ONS.
> 
> That, obviously is totally wrong. She inflicted this information on her friend, who should not have had to bear the responsibility. It was a choice. She needed to vent and she was according to all reports, torn up with guilt.
> 
> ...


Perhaps she should tell the truth and see what her husband will actually do. People declare in this situatiuon I would do X but you never rally know until you are confronted with it. I know the thread you are talking about and feel she will cotinue to lie. But I feel you are blaming her husband a bit here by saying he made the situation impossible for her to be honest..actually she did that by cheating. Just my two cents....


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

JCD, she left herself as a hostage to fortune.

Her husband was, eventually, likely to find out.

The how does not matter, but a chance remark from a friend, a tearful confession from the lover who had "got religion" or a host of other ways.

It was a matter of time.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Almost no one admits to cheating, thus lying. Its hard to interpret stats because you have to guess what they imply. In her case , if she rats herself out there is almost no chance for R. Only 15% of marriages R when the wife cheats . Is that because betrayal is more unforgivable for men or because when a woman cheats she is already done?

When a man cheats, there is a 45% chance the marriage will survive. I think that's because men just want to get laid and have no intention of losing their family.

A lot of people look over other peoples failures. I guess that's because almost 75% of men and women claim they would cheat if they knew they would not get caught. 

There is almost 100% of the cheaters lying since only 80% of affairs are ever discovered. 

The worst statistic of course is how many women either know their husband isn't the father of her child and how many do not know who the father is.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

The Scorpion and the Frog

One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river.
The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.

Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.

"Hellooo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?"

"Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to kill me?" asked the frog hesitantly.

"Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!"

Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!"

"This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!"

"Alright then...how do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog.

"Ahh...," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?!"

So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current.

Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs.

"You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"

The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back.

"I could not help myself. It is my nature."

Then they both sank into the muddy waters of the swiftly flowing river.

Self destruction - "Its my Nature", said the Scorpion...


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Confessing cheating is usually a lose-lose proposition. It can also be selfish - the cheater eases their conscience, but puts the burden on their spouse. Not confessing is sometimes a win-win situation, IF (and only if) the cheater has learned from their indiscretion and NEVER repeats it. We are human, and humans make mistakes. Compounding a mistake is a greater mistake. It depends on circumstances.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It seems to me that this is true of any behavior that is socially stigmatized. Sometimes the consequence of telling the truth about a behavior that one regrets is decided by society as a whole, e.g., prison time for robbery. Sometimes, it's decided by an individual, e.g., a parent issuing punishment for a child's misbehavior. 

When people face consequences, the ones exacting those consequences can be forgiving and rehabilitative, or unforgiving and/or punitive. There is a wide range of attitude about type of consequence for any given offense.

I don't think that there is a wide range among humans, though, when it comes to lying to avoid consequences. It appears to be a first-order response.

In cases like the one you're citing, my reaction is usually to feel umbrage for the BS specifically because the WS is unilaterally making important decisions for both their lives. I think the BH is owed more respect in the marriage, since it is as intimately his marriage as it is hers. I don't think she has a right to make executive decisions - about cheating, about deciding that he needn't know, about her chances of relapsing, about whether he should stay with her given her betrayal.

So, yes, given what she knows, she will have to lie to ensure that her marriage will survive. I don't think whether her marriage survives after this is solely her decision, though. That fact is part of the marital compact.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

bfree said:


> The Scorpion and the Frog
> 
> Snip
> 
> Self destruction - "Its my Nature", said the Scorpion...


Since we are trading stories:

Daze Village Uprising

Two Chinese officers were leading workers/soldiers up north to defend someplace. There were bad rains and flooding and they got stuck in this one province for quite a while.

So, one guy asks the other guy: "What is the punishment for being late to an assignment?"

"Death." answered the other.

"What is the punishment for rebelling against the Emperor?" the first officer asks again.

"Death." he answered again.

"Well, guess what? We're late." the first officer stated.

Absolutism has it's own consequences. So yeah, to a certain degree, the husband gets a small amount of blame for shutting down communication and discussion. That is the whole point of a no win situation.

***

But...you need to listen to what you are saying with that fable:

Waywards should never try to Reconcile.

Their spouses should never try to Reconcile despite statistical evidence that the majority of cases of infidelity actually stick together.

What about the kids? We don't know what causes infidelity, so the kids are fruit of the poisonous vine either through genetics or teaching from the duplicitous wayward. Are you going to warn the paramours of your children away since they probably have the cheating cooties?

How much do you really believe in determinism vs. free will?

I have lied once or twice in my life (Have you?)

I have stolen a thing or two in my life (Have you?)

I have even...sob...been drunk once or twice in my life (Have...I think you get the picture.)

Now, according to the Scorpion absolutist metric, I am a lying drunken thief and I shall be a lying drunken thief always and forever.

I don't want to believe these things about me. Do you want to believe them about yourself?

Now...I DO believe in scorpions. But I do not believe every bug that has stung me is a scorpion, unchanging and spiteful enough to kill just because without thought, reflection or remorse.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

JCD said:


> Before I was shipped off to banned camp, I was on a thread which had a woman who had a ONS.
> 
> That, obviously is totally wrong. She inflicted this information on her friend, who should not have had to bear the responsibility. It was a choice. She needed to vent and she was according to all reports, torn up with guilt.
> 
> ...


There is no substitute for honesty, no matter how hard it may be.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Confessing cheating is usually a lose-lose proposition. It can also be selfish - the cheater eases their conscience, but puts the burden on their spouse. Not confessing is sometimes a win-win situation, IF (and only if) the cheater has learned from their indiscretion and NEVER repeats it. We are human, and humans make mistakes. Compounding a mistake is a greater mistake. It depends on circumstances.


Have you ever been cheated on? Or were you the WS? I really cannot believe anyone with a little bit of conscience would post this.

When my STBXW wanted a divorce, she didn't tell me about the affair. She made it all about me, that it was my fault that she was leaving me. She made me feel like a particle of dust, too insignificant to be worthy of anyone's compassion.

Let me explain to you what would have happened if I didn't discover of my STBXW's indiscretions on my own. I would have to live the rest of my life blaming myself for the dissolution of our relationship. I would have to be the dark soul which destroys everything that it touches. Have you ever had that feeling? Do you honestly have any idea what a burden that can be?

Almost all the stories I read here, and from everything I have seen in real life, cheaters never confess. They always blame the BS. Then some of them get caught. Then they cry and tell their sorry stories of how broken they are. That's the only thing they get right.

I believe in second chances. But I also believe in consequences. If you follow an action, you have to face the consequence. You cannot run forever, sooner or later it will catch you. In case of cheating, second chance might come, but only after the truth has been revealed and the consequences played themselves out. Without complete, unadulterated truth there is no marriage, no reconciliation, no happily ever after, it is just a sham, a mirage, a skeleton covered in a glittery drape reminiscent of broken dreams and shattered ideals.

That's all.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

life101

You are projecting the details of your relationship onto this hypothetical even though it doesn't fit.

That isn't what this is about.

Hypothetical: Wife has a ONS (NOT an affair) Hubby is rigid in his thinking (that might be the reason men divorce so much Chap...or that they think they can trade up easier...or get away from Married responsibilities...or...but that is a thread jack)

Wife, appalled at what she's done, tries to change her life, her patterns, and stay with the husband...without coming clean. Yes, Matt, it might very well blow back at her.

So...they stay married. She tries like hell to be a good wife. All the married benefits still accrue to the couple and their kids...wife has a serious case of the guilts...but that's part of her penance (the other is the dread of it coming out anyway).

The husband WAS damaged...but he is not CURRENTLY being damaged except for not getting a choice and not knowing how low his wife CAN sink (not consistently sink).

It isn't a great choice...or even a good choice. To some people's calculations, it's better than a divorce in which everyone loses a lot bigger that the damage of the ONS.

BUT...I will admit I'd prefer to know. This is hypocrisy...which is a venal sin to me.

YOUR situation sucked, but it isn't relevant HERE.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

I think its a simple problem, with a simple solution.

No matter how good the M apparently was prior to the cheating, if the WS truly loves their BS they must share the information with them.

I think it is impossible to claim you love your partner and then lie to and deceive them. No exceptions.

Any argument about the merits of keeping the A/ONS a secret is unacceptable to my way of thinking.

I would be far more furious if I were the BS about the lying then about the act of cheating itself. 

I would view such acts as a blatant manipulation of myself for the benefit of the WS so that they never had to face consequences or provide me with the opportunity to make a choice about the M that THEY didn't want.

Frankly, when they cheated, they gave up the right to have their feelings considered in that decision.

They should have stayed loyal if they wanted their desires to have some bearing on the choice to maintain the M.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Again, this is projection.

2ntnuf, you KNEW (the pain comes with the knowing) and the affair seems to have been semi public. So the public damage to your relationship and reputation was real.

Is that what I am discussing? No. This scenario is two cheaters who don't talk, don't repeat. The pain comes when she tells the truth to her husband. The damage comes when she confesses. Unless you buy into that this one lie is so corrosive that it will destroy the relationship anyway. That is a difficult prospect to prove, since by definition, any unknown infidelity is unknown.

And honestly, I am not here to debate the basis of telling or not telling. I am here to discuss how this one statement forces lying.

I am struggling with that idea particularly the benefit of it's efficacy in stopping infidelity vs. what it causes regarding shutting down communication.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

JCD said:


> life101
> 
> You are projecting the details of your relationship onto this hypothetical even though it doesn't fit.
> 
> ...


Cheating is cheating. The marital contract has been broken. A new contract has to be drawn, with everything in the open so that everyone can make the best decisions. That's the basis of trust in a marriage.

You may think that my situation doesn't apply here because of many reasons. But my argument still stands IMHO. If a BS doesn't know, the BS will always think of it as the BS's own fault. The truth and only the truth will set the BS free.

We don't deserve anything in life, except the right to live free.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

My fable was not to show that you should not reconcile with a wayward. My fable was to show that she knew what her husband's nature was. She was the frog and her affair was the sting. It's her own fault for being stupid knowing the likely outcome. Sometimes we have to face the consequences of our actions as unpleasant as they may be. Your question is what should she do now. The answer is not get yourself into a no win scenario in the first place and if you make that choice accept the consequences like a adult. Anything less and its just rationalizing and justifying your own selfishness yet again.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> I think its a simple problem, with a simple solution.
> 
> No matter how good the M apparently was prior to the cheating, if the WS truly loves their BS they must share the information with them.
> 
> ...


So...I had a dinner table conversation with my kids.

To paraphrase, I said if they did something bad, if they got in trouble, they better come to me and fess up. If they get in trouble with the law, they better come 100% clean to me.

THEN we try to fix things. "Fixing things" might be jail time, but we'll fix them together.

Please note: I did not say "if you rob a bank, I am excommunicating you from the family".

I made the LIE the enemy of the family, not the fact a family member made a mistake. 

But I took a different line regarding infidelity. Which is where my cognitive dissonance comes in.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

JCD,

I respect your right to disagree with me.

I'm not projecting though.

I would never want or choose to be with a person who could so horribly betray my trust and out commitment to each other. Period.

And it would not matter one bit how many perfect or good memories I had of the relationship previous to the ONS.

I think a M is dead the moment one party commits infidelity. And there is no going back to it. Actions cannot be undone. There is no returning to the way it was before.

If my WW was to hide this from me, I would view the continuance of the M a total lie and a facade if I ever discovered it, and my fury at her would be exponentially greater because of the deception to keep this dead relationship going.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

JCD,

I do think the WS gives up their right to decide if the M continues.

And in my view, it would indeed be over at that moment, regardless of what she wanted.

If she lied to me because she realized she had no other option to continue the M, I can tell you I would then put out no effort to keep the split cordial or amicable. I would be far more vindictive and vengeful.

If she would not like that then she should have stayed loyal and KEPT HER LEGS CLOSED. After that moment, what she wants would not mean crap to me.

And if a WS thinks that the lie gives them some small chance of saving their M, then they are truly lying to themselves. The M is truly already dead and their is no reality to this 'chance' because the truth will instantly expose that hope/wish to be a lie.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> JCD,
> 
> I do think the WS gives up their right to decide if the M continues.
> 
> ...





Dyokemm said:


> JCD,
> 
> I do think the WS gives up their right to decide if the M continues.
> 
> ...


Dyokemm: I agree with both of these posts 1,000 time over! You hit the nail on the head.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Middleman,

Thanks. I'm just not built to ever give a pass on this crap.

But I also do realize that this is a very personal thing.

I also 100% support those BS here on TAM that do want to R, and I try to never give advice that criticizes or demeans that choice.

Every person has to walk their own path.

But JCD was asking for our own take on such a hypothetical situation, so I shared how I view it. 

I do not, however, view myself as correct for all people, and therefore people with other views as 'wrong'.

Some people honestly share here that they would never want to know about a ONS and would just want to continue the happy M.

I personally cannot understand this view, but if it makes them happy I will support them completely.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

So here is the thing: cheating is never a mistake, it is 100% a choice.

Now the scumbag cheater may find their choice isnt as good as they thought it would be - basic buyers remorse.


Should the BS take them then back and give them another chance?

In my books, most of the time the answer is no. Not simply because the WS ribbed body parts with another person, but because they willing chose to rub body parts. It's not the act, it's the choice to do the act.

No one should ever accept being plan B, and buyers remorse is very much plan B.

So in most cases I honestly think the BS is better off ditching the person who chose to betray them and trash their relationship.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

When the WS choses cheat, they forfeit a vote in the continuance of the relationship. That rests solely upon the BS.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> So here is the thing: cheating is never a mistake, it is 100% a choice.
> 
> Now the scumbag cheater may find their choice isnt as good as they thought it would be - basic buyers remorse.
> 
> ...


It is always a choice. It is not always a plan. Too many people here seem to think it is always a conspiracy or evil intent. That is not always the case.

One does not plan to turn left and get hit by a semi...but it was a choice none the less. A quickly made, stupid choice but with consequences just as shattering.

However, people seem willing to forgive a spouse paralyzing them by a stupid accident than a heat of the moment choice of cheating with far less graphic consequences.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

JCD,

You made some really good and interesting points in your recounting of the discussion with your kids.

I guess I would respond that for me, even if it was a child, there are simply some things that are so unforgivable in my mind that my connection/relationship with that person would have to end.

I view adultery that way in a relationship.

In the case of a child, many things I would handle just as you describe.

But if it was a case of murder, rape, child molestation, or some other very horrible crime, I would even end my relationship with my own child, as painful as that would be.

There are some things in this world that are so bad that the consequences should be severe and everlasting. 

Such hypothetical scenarios always remind me of the Roman consul Marcus Junius Brutus (the supposed ancestor of the assassin of Julius Caesar). 

It is said that in the early years of the Roman republic, Brutus' two sons were caught in a treasonous conspiracy to overthrow the republic and restore the tyrant Tarquin to the throne of the Roman monarchy. 

As the chief elected official of the government, Brutus ordered and carried out the execution of his own sons.

I cannot imagine how horrible such a situation must have been for Brutus, but I do understand the sentiment/lesson the tale conveys.

There are indeed some things that even the closest blood ties to a person cannot allow you to excuse.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

JCD said:


> It is always a choice. It is not always a plan. Too many people here seem to think it is always a conspiracy or evil intent. That is not always the case.
> 
> One does not plan to turn left and get hit by a semi...but it was a choice none the less. A quickly made, stupid choice but with consequences just as shattering.
> 
> However, people seem willing to forgive a spouse paralyzing them by a stupid accident than a heat of the moment choice of cheating with far less graphic consequences.


Jcd, why are you so eager to support cheaters and minimize their willing and eager choice to betray and hurt the BS?

All the discussion in the world, and all the word smithing does not change the choice they eagerly made.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

JCD said:


> So...I had a dinner table conversation with my kids.
> 
> To paraphrase, I said if they did something bad, if they got in trouble, they better come to me and fess up. If they get in trouble with the law, they better come 100% clean to me.
> 
> ...


You are comparing apples to oranges.

Every family has a set of rules, explicit or implicit. If you break the rules, you run the risk of facing the consequences.
If my family taught me that stealing will be a deal breaker for them and if I ever stole anything they will expel me from the family, then I better believe that will be the case. If they taught me that doing something that goes against the family ethos will mean that my parents will never see my face again, and then I still CHOOSE to do it, I better be prepared to face whatever comes next.

A marriage means each partner took the vows to support each other and be exclusive to each other, physically and emotionally. If the vows are broken, the guilty party better be prepared to face the consequences. If the marital vows included infidelity and lying to each other, then sure, go ahead and have fun.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

JCD,

The WS in your hypothetical scenario was *fully aware *of her partner's rule: No cheating. She was aware of this rule before she cheated. She cheated anyway. 

So after she cheats, she's perplexed about how she should handle it. If she tells her partner, she stands to 'lose everything'. If she _lies_, she has to live with the guilt, and possibly spend her days (and nights) "making it up to him". Basically, she has no 'incentive' to tell the BS the truth. 

I understand that you don't want to hear this JCD, but the 'incentive' is to not cheat in the first place. It's kind of like committing any crime. Just the consequences alone (jail time, ruined reputation, not being able to get a decent job because of a record, etc.) should be the 'incentive' not to do it. This way, she avoids BOTH being divorced AND lying. 

In a way, you're saying, "Yeah, I know I'm not _supposed_ to commit a crime, _but what if I do_? Where's the incentive to 'come clean' if I'm just going to be punished anyway? Since I already know I'll be punished, I'm being "_forced_" to lie in order to avoid being punished!" 

This is called Wayward Thinking. By claiming that your hypothetical WS is being 'forced' to lie is making the WS out to be a 'victim' of sorts. 

If your WS was TRULY remorseful, your WS would accept the consequences for her choices. That means, that she would tell her BS, and start packing her stuff. If the BS changes his mind about ending the relationship, the WS should see this as a _gift_; one that she doesn't deserve, and not look at the BS as 'weak' for still wanting a relationship with her.

The WS is never being "forced" to lie...unless there's a gun held to his or her head.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

I say you find a way to come clean.

Have the MC ready, have the therapist ready. 

Have his family ready. 

Do what you need to prepare for the worst. 

If you have to, do an intervention on yourself with his family and friends.

I don't believe that he will eventually find out. I had many chances to have ONS and some were 3000 miles away from home. 
But never did.

But I can say that being caught lying for the kids part is bad. Me and my kids caught my wife lying. It was bad.. Imagine your son calling you at work and your not there and then you tell them you were and they start grilling you on it.

Anyways I used it as a hard learning experience for them. I always told them never lie, cheat or steal and if you decide to lie and get caught, the best thing to do is tell the truth because it just gets worse if you keep lying.

I explained that day, *"See no matter how old you are or who you are, that includes being a mommy or a daddy, if you get caught lying you just tell the truth."*

Lying doesn't have an age and anyone can do it. 

There is a saying in spanish that basically translates, I will call myself a fool before you do.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

JCD said:


> "Rebel against the emperor or be late..."
> 
> *You forgot the obvious...leave earlier so you aren't late.*
> 
> ...


I hope you also talked to them about not getting yourself into a setting where bad things are more likely to happen.

You seem to be focused on the choices after the infidelity occurs. You say that after someone cheats there are no good choices. You say that almost nobody leaves their house deciding to cheat. And you're right, it isn't always a conscious decision to cheat. But you're ignoring the choice we all have prior to committing the actual act. We all know there is a little voice in all of us (sociopaths not included) that warns us when we're about to do something that is likely to bite us in the future. Yet sometimes we ignore this voice and allow ourselves to get into a bad situation when things start spinning out of control. You say that there are no good choices in a no win situation. You say choosing not to cheat is not always so obvious. I say that it is not the choice to cheat or not that is the problem. It's ignoring that little voice that tells us:

*STOP!*


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You say that the H has 'arbitrarily' said that any infidelity is a dealbreaker. How do you know that it's arbitrary?

Cheating has such painful effects that people are as serious as heart attacks about it. Drawing a line in the sand re infidelity as a result isn't at all uncommon. If someone like this WW then crosses the line, she's set herself up to lie if she wants to keep the marriage. This is all her conscious doing, not some hapless, sad result of an innocent moment. I think your analogy to the accident is disingenuous. She didn't innocently make a turn and then just have the bad luck to have an accident; she planned out that turn and purposely ran into the other car.

Lying to not receive hard and fast consequences is completely natural and human. I don't see that the fact that this woman is now in the position she's in represents any sort of Catch 22 or even a moral or philosophical puzzle.

People can be sorry as h3ll that they did something they knew was wrong, but they chose to do it because it felt good & only worried about the consequences later. This is crime and punishment the world over since pretty much forever.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

JCD said:


> However, people seem willing to forgive a spouse paralyzing them by a stupid accident than a heat of the moment choice of cheating with far less graphic consequences.


Simply put, the injured spouse CHOSE to get in the car, while an injured spouse didn't choose an affair. Your logical fallacy is pretty bad.


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

I would say that although one shouldn't cheat They do owe it to the other spouse to be honest. So I would be on the confessing side although it could end the marriage etc I feel that the other spouse should know the truth and be given the opportunity to say yea or nay in regards to the marriage. We have seen it in person, from friends, and on this site that by confessing the marriage has become better than ever after a period of time. I think the best thing would be to not cheat in the first place but if you did then you need to get honest with your partner and put the ball in their court. Just my opinion


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

I know the thread in question. 
It is indeed a no win situation. If she tells her husband ( and she did, let's see what happens) , he may not forgive her, but who knows, eventually, he may, with a lot of apologies and sincere repentance.
But if he finds out on his own, or from somebody else...then she's really "dead".
She'd have taken a big risk if she kept quiet. He may have never found out, it was a year ago; but what if he did, one day? I think it's safer that she did tell him...

As a parantese...before and in the early stage of my relationship with my spouse,...I had an inappropriate friendship with another guy he used to talk a lot with. No, not an EA - my feelings were always for him only, and the other guy always knew...I was just trying to make him jealous and get his attention...yes, sex happened a couple of times, too. The guy promised to keep my secrets, so when we got together, I had this weight on my conscience...it was not technically cheating, nor an emotional affair, but I knew it was inappropriate. So I confessed during our first weeks...it was hard ! I was afraid that I would just blow it all up. But I got the guilt off my chest and it felt great. And yes, he forgave me, and understood. Needless to say I dropped the other guy forever. 
You get the idea...I could have kept quiet...but why risk? One day maybe he had a fight with the friend...or it may have come out of my mouth as I'm not a good liar...he would have left me if I didn't come clean. I'm glad I did.

Nevertheless, my point on that particular thread was that the friend should not betray the secret. I for one, would never do that.
The moral of that story (and mine): no, you can't tell your friends EVERYTHING.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

So, one day, I did a questionable thing. I started climbing down the side of a cliff. It looked fun, didn't look too difficult and I'd climbed steep slopes before without getting scathed.

Well...about half way down, I realized that the face of this particular cliff had a lot of dirt and that didn't lend itself well to handholds. I also realized that because of that same issue, I wasn't sure if I could get back up again.

A good bit of the advice here, having gotten into that particular situation, is that I deserve to fall and I SHOULD fall...just so I can learn my lesson properly. It seems, according to this philosophy, that I CAN'T learn without falling and feeling the full consequences from my stupid choice...which I entered willingly, but without total information.

I don't buy that.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Confessing cheating is usually a lose-lose proposition. It can also be selfish - the cheater eases their conscience, but puts the burden on their spouse. Not confessing is sometimes a win-win situation, IF (and only if) the cheater has learned from their indiscretion and NEVER repeats it. We are human, and humans make mistakes. Compounding a mistake is a greater mistake. It depends on circumstances.


Win win. That's funny. So lie, cheat, then fix it all by lying some more.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

life101 said:


> Have you ever been cheated on? Or were you the WS? I really cannot believe anyone with a little bit of conscience would post this.
> 
> When my STBXW wanted a divorce, she didn't tell me about the affair. She made it all about me, that it was my fault that she was leaving me. She made me feel like a particle of dust, too insignificant to be worthy of anyone's compassion.
> 
> ...


My stbxw did this too - left on the guise that she just wasn't happy any more, etc. I flat out asked her 3 days after she left and she reluctantly gave it up. When I asked asked "is there another man in your life" her first answer was "does it matter? Really". LOL. Uhhhhh, ya think?


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

JCD said:


> So, one day, I did a questionable thing. I started climbing down the side of a cliff. It looked fun, didn't look too difficult and I'd climbed steep slopes before without getting scathed.
> 
> Well...about half way down, I realized that the face of this particular cliff had a lot of dirt and that didn't lend itself well to handholds. I also realized that because of that same issue, I wasn't sure if I could get back up again.
> 
> ...


Ehh, not quite. I see the advice here a little different.

With hard work and sweat, you _might_ get back to the top of the cliff. Even if you work hard, you may fall anyway. But because you chose to go down the cliff in the first place, whether or not you make it back to the top is no longer fully in your hands. Being on the cliff is entirely on you - and if you do fall, whether you try to climb or not, it's pretty much the consequences. And if you didn't learn anything about the cliff before you went down .... well, again, whose fault is that? And even when they make it back to the top, some people don't learn and think they can go right back down. So making it to the top is no guarantee of learning either.

That's how I see the advice here, JCD. There are a few people that might get some schadenfreude from seeing WS fall. I think most just want them to accept the fallout from their bad choices.

And if that means the loss of your family because of a ONS, then so be it. Respect your BS enough to give them the choice whether to help you back up the cliff or deal with the consequences of your own bad decisions.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

JCD said:


> So, one day, I did a questionable thing. I started climbing down the side of a cliff. It looked fun, didn't look too difficult and I'd climbed steep slopes before without getting scathed.
> 
> Well...about half way down, I realized that the face of this particular cliff had a lot of dirt and that didn't lend itself well to handholds. I also realized that because of that same issue, I wasn't sure if I could get back up again.
> 
> ...


You can indeed learn the lesson without falling. Of course, you can. But this analogy is not proper, in my opinion.

A more reasonable analogy would be:

I had been told by the powers that be that this cliff was completely out of bounds. I thought it looked intriguing, though, and decided that I would knock out my spouse and drag him/her down the cliff face with me....

These decisions involve two people. I simply don't believe that making a very serious decision that deeply affects the most important person in your life and keeps him/her in the dark is OK.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

If I was a wayward and the quilt was killing me I would bail...phuck it tell my old lady I screwed around except my consequences and dust my @ss off and look for a chick I could stay true to.

But I'm not a wayward!


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

JCD,

I think the point most people are making here (at least I am), is that you must face the consequences of life situations YOU chose to put yourself in.

You should not try to wriggle out of them by FURTHER doing injury to those you have already wronged by now lying to and deceiving them.

This is just pure selfishness and a complete lack of empathy towards other human beings.

If you do wrong, you own up to it and accept whatever consequences THEY deem necessary for them to heal from the injury you have done them.

If you hide it and they discover through other means later, do not be shocked that they are far angrier and more vindictive with you than they would have been originally.

After all, they are now facing TWO injuries/wrongs you have done them. The original hurt AND the lying/deception.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

@Dyokemm, thanks for staying away from crazy @ss analogies.

To bad waywards don't think like you and me!


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

the guy,

I know.

I do understand the usefulness of analogies. Sometimes they can lead people to an a-ha moment and a better understanding of the point being discussed.

But all too often they end up taking the discussion off on a tangent that leads away from the central issue.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

2ntnuf,

Yep.

There is almost always a sense of entitlement with cheaters. 

And entitlement issues are always tied up with feelings of superiority.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

So... basically you are saying a BS shouldn't have any right of choice or any boundaries in his/her life regarding the relationship. If the BS says they will not accept infidelity(and divorce without a second chance), they deserve to be lied to, because ,well, who cares about anything other than the WS getting their way, even if it isn't what the BS would want if they knew the reality.

You know the antidote to this dilemma, right? People shouldn't declare any boundaries. They should shut their mouth about what they believe is right, what they will do, what they accept or don't; even to their spouses. Hell, why not even set traps? Instead of "arbitrarily" declaring you won't accept infidelity ever, try saying "If you came clean, I would accept you with open arms and no judgement at all." Maybe that will sooth the WSs fragile ego and give them an incentive to come clean(so you can say "ha, I got you now" and dump their cheating ass.)

Because F decency, honesty, integrity etc etc? Aren't they all words to be manipulated when the end results of our actions aren't satisfactory. F respecting your spouse enough to think they deserve reality, if the reality will not let you keep control of the situation.

The fact that the WS has to "win" in order to come clean is a sign of something clearly wrong with the WSs personality.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

JCD, as a reconciled betrayed spouse, I think back on the things that hurt me about wife's affair..

1. The physical acts

2. The emotional connection. For a time it was her and him against me.

3. The lies. The knowledge that she can look me in the face and say with absolute conviction things that are simply not true.

So to me, the lie isn't some knock on side show, it is a betrayal. And it's a lie about something fundamental.

I am reconciled 23 years, but it wasn't always a straight path, and I have occasional bad days when I wonder how it would have turned out if I left her. 

Does she have any right to suck me into major life decisions based on a lie? Isn't that essentially stealing my life? How does she get the right to work out whether I should stay in a marriage that is not as I wished it, not as we agreed.

My reconciliation would have been much easier had wife told me the truth, and I am sure the residual damage of the affair would have been much less.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> You can indeed learn the lesson without falling. Of course, you can. But this analogy is not proper, in my opinion.
> 
> A more reasonable analogy would be:
> 
> ...


Here is the major difference between myself and say Shaggy when it comes to infidelity.

He seems to think there is a plan, a decision that the wayward 'eagerly and willingly' seeks. He or she can't WAIT to have sex with X, Y, or Z.

It rarely works that way, particularly with a ONS. Instead, it tends to be a few questionable decisions made in a very short time frame.

This isn't evil, it's thoughtlessness. I'm not dragging anyone anywhere. The impact of my death on my spouse (just like the impact of infidelity) doesn't cross my mind...until suddenly I'm stuck.

I think that it's more mentally comfortable to think that the WS is evil than momentarily thoughtless. The pain is too great and serious for it to be such a shallow decision. But any kind of close reading of the few WS who stick around through the invective shows that this seems to be the case.

Affairs tend to be slightly different things.

Hey, I believe in honesty too. I just feel that setting that high a price from the outset encourages lying.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> So... basically you are saying a BS shouldn't have any right of choice or any boundaries in his/her life regarding the relationship. If the BS says they will not accept infidelity(and divorce without a second chance), they deserve to be lied to, because ,well, who cares about anything other than the WS getting their way, even if it isn't what the BS would want if they knew the reality.


Why, no. That is not what I am saying at all. But if it makes you comfortable to believe that and imply bad things about my character, please go ahead and do so.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

JCD said:


> Here is the major difference between myself and say Shaggy when it comes to infidelity.
> 
> He seems to think there is a plan, a decision that the wayward 'eagerly and willingly' seeks. He or she can't WAIT to have sex with X, Y, or Z.
> 
> ...


I have seen affairs that fitted Shaggy's worldview and affairs that fitted yours.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Jcd, why are you so eager to support cheaters and minimize their willing and eager choice to betray and hurt the BS?
> 
> All the discussion in the world, and all the word smithing does not change the choice they eagerly made.


I wrote this before, but I took it down. I'm not sure why.

I do not 'support' cheaters. I do not attribute them to being 'pod people'. I don't consider them 'cake eating compartmentalizing sociopaths'. I certainly try not to badger them unmercifully when they show up (despite my avatar) looking for support, a way to fix things, or a soft landing. My first instinct at seeing someone on a cliff is to reach down, help them up *THEN* tell them how stupid they are. That isn't my opening pitch.

They are human beings. They made mistakes. SOME are just as bad as TAM makes them out to be. Many others are not. They are basically moral people who made a few serious mistakes and need a little tweaking to be much better people to get out of the rabbit hole they fell down.

This attribute I call 'sympathy' and 'understanding'. It's not just for the BS anymore...


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

2ntnuf,

So...you have never had a momentary lack of empathy? Said or done things in anger or thoughtlessness? Said something that hurt your spouse badly? Because that lack of empathy, even momentarily, is a matter of degree, not of kind.

If so, I applaud you. But by your own admission, only the 'thought' of your wife kept you from cheating.

Hence the term 'thoughtlessness'. Without thought. That one thought was the difference between you and a cheater.

Think carefully about that.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

JCD,

I agree with you that poor decisions and actions do not automatically mean a person is bad or evil.

But the true character of a WS is an entirely separate issue from consequences for their actions.

True sorrow and remorse do not mean that a person should be excused from the price of their bad decisions.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

JCD said:


> Here is the major difference between myself and say Shaggy when it comes to infidelity.
> 
> He seems to think there is a plan, a decision that the wayward 'eagerly and willingly' seeks. He or she can't WAIT to have sex with X, Y, or Z.
> 
> ...


The fact is a person doesnt just suddenly or accidentally find their self having sex with another person, even in a ONS. The infidelity began way before that when the cheater chose to let the AP cross a boundary, and when the WS chose to put themself into a situation that facilitated the cheating.

And that says a whole lot about the WS, and frankly it should make the BS seriously question staying with the WS even if the WS called it off before sex happened.

It's not that I see the WS as having a well thought out plan, instead I see them as callous, selfish, not thinking about how they are choosing to hurt and emotionally attack the BS.

And that's a big part of the problem with the WS - they are showing through their actions that they do not value the BS or else they would be worried about loosing them. Why don't you steal from your employer when you've got a job you value? Because you don't want to loose it. 

Also the stupid selfish choice to put themself in a cheating enabling situation,brings into question their judgement and worthiness for the BS to be with them at all.

You don't just find yourself close enough to a potential AP that the AP can stick their tongue in your mouth unless you already broke a bunch of personal space boundaries.

You don't just find yourself drunk and alone with the AP unless you started drinking well before without your spouse.

So part of it isn't that they've got an amazing plan to cheat, but that they didn't have an amazing plan upfront to NOT CHEAT.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> JCD,
> 
> I agree with you that poor decisions and actions do not automatically mean a person is bad or evil.
> 
> ...


The damage that was done by an affair just is.....

I don't lik the word price...it sounds like something the BS chooses to exact. And they may want some sort of revenge....but I had no choice in dealing with all that crap. My wife did what she did and nothing I do will change that

Life isn't a fairy tale. We don't always live happily ever after.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

What is evil?

Is evil a careful plan to do harm to an innocent - yes certainly

But evil can also be systemic callous disregard of the consequences upon others to our actions.

I do think there is an evil aspect to long term cheating, where the WS conspires to do it over and over. Eric's , BFFs wife and RDMUs acted in what I would consider an evil way. They lied to and deliberately conspired with the AP against the spouse. they played games to hide it, from their loyal spouses while engaging , and humiliating the BS by having the Ap actually appear in their lives.

Is a callous selfish act evil? I suppose it can be if it is sufficiently callous. For instance drowning a bag of puppies in the river because other options where too much work is an act of evil.

A drunken ONS, not so much, but as I said before that reflects badly that the WS didnt choose from the start of the events to defend their own honor and marriage.

It's not that people don't find others attractive. The difference is that non cheaters choose not to go there. They actively choose to not put themselves in the situations that lead to affairs. They establish personal do not cross boundaries, and they stick to them, not out of fear but out of choice.

If you walk into an airport security line and scream "I have a gun and bomb". You can call it a mistake, but funny how so few people make that mistake, yet do many mistakenly find themselves with a tongue in their mouth that doesn't belong to their spouse.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> The fact is a person doesnt just suddenly or accidentally find their self having sex with another person, even in a ONS. The infidelity began way before that when the cheater chose to let the AP cross a boundary, and when the WS chose to put themself into a situation that facilitated the cheating.
> 
> And that says a whole lot about the WS, and frankly it should make the BS seriously question staying with the WS even if the WS called it off before sex happened.
> 
> ...


In my wife's case (and she is not unique) there were a lot of factors that pushed her to a vulnerable space, where in her naivety she fell for a player.

It explains some of what happened. Doesn't excuse it

But one of my assumptions in reconciling is that she has learned from that.

And I wonder if, when I faced temptation later, I didn't handle it better in part because I had learned from her mistakes.

This doesn't change the sort of things you are saying Shaggy, but it maybe affects how you judge them


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Wazza said:


> In my wife's case (and she is not unique) there were a lot of factors that pushed her to a vulnerable space, where in her naivety she fell for a player.
> 
> It explains some of what happened. Doesn't excuse it
> 
> ...


Maybe I am naive in how I see cheating. For I see it as one of the lines you do not cross. You don't steal money from work, you don't murder people, you don't break into people's houses, you don't kidnap people, you don't extort money, and you don't cheat.

You don't burn churches, you don't steal cars, you don't visit North 
Korea, you don't wear white shoes after Labor Day, and you don't mix scotch with coke.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Maybe I am naive in how I see cheating. For I see it as one of the lines you do not cross. You don't steal money from work, you don't murder people, you don't break into people's houses, you don't kidnap people, you don't extort money, and you don't cheat.
> 
> You don't burn churches, you don't steal cars, you don't visit North
> Korea, you don't wear white shoes after Labor Day, and you don't mix scotch with coke.


But not all murders are equal. Not all murderers are likely to be repeat offenders.

However totally agree with you about scotch and coke.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> ... you don't mix scotch with coke.


Oh crap! I AM damned!

It was just once! Really! I didn't think it was a big deal! I didn't even LIKE IT!

But I learned from my mistake. I never want to drink scotch again...with or without coke!


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Wazza said:


> But not all murders are equal. Not all murderers are likely to be repeat offenders.
> 
> However totally agree with you about scotch and coke.


I didn't say they were equal or going to repeat. I just meant its a line you do not cross. Especially the scotch. Rye whiskey and coke is ok, but not with Pepsi or Mountain Dew.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> You are not a thoughtless man, JCD. I cannot believe you would not think before doing. I have read too many of your posts. Do you see why I am still here? I think you are lying to yourself. I think you are better than this.


Hmm.

I am not speaking about myself. I am speaking about a situation in which a WS (NOT myself) did something egregious and thoughtless...and now is stuck on the cliff.

While I don't approve of playing around on the edges of cliffs (though as always, I work on my boundaries as well), I am sympathetic to the situation in which she finds herself.

So please don't personalize it to me. I have my close calls with boundaries, but this isn't one of them.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> I didn't say they were equal or going to repeat. I just meant its a line you do not cross. Especially the scotch. Rye whiskey and coke is ok, but not with Pepsi or Mountain Dew.


OK, so when I first dated my wife and she drank scotch and coke, I should have known she would cheat at that point? I married the wrong woman as I lacked knowledge and made a mistake.

QED.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Shaggy,

Average, and mainly decent, people can commit horrible or 'evil' acts, bur I would never classify them as bad people.

I have met a handful of people in my life that are truly vicious, cruel, and evil (for lack of a better term since I'm not religious).

I would not classify the vast majority of cheaters, though they have done selfish and horrible acts, with those people.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

JCD said:


> Hey, I believe in honesty too. I just feel that setting that high a price from the outset encourages lying.


No, it is meant to formulate boundaries. There are many different kinds of people. Each has their own personal sense of morality. If a spouse clearly states that their boundary includes the fact that cheating is a dealbreaker for them then that is being honest and forthcoming isn't it? And if the husband or wife chooses to play with fire and ends up crossing that boundary then it is all on them right? Lying just destroys what little wiggle room there might have been in enforcing that boundary.

If you commit a crime there are laws and consequences. But judges have the power to take into account mitigating circumstances. Maybe it was a one time offense. Maybe the person was coerced. Maybe the judge feels that the person is of good character in spite of the offense and chooses to cut them some slack. But if the offender goes into court and disrespects the judge or lies the judge will more than likely throw the book at them. If the person goes before the judge and offers no excuses and is truly repentant for their behavior the judge might just be lenient.

Going back to your discussion with your children....you said that you want them to always be honest with you regardless of what they've done. If they committed a crime would you try to help them by covering it up for them? Or would you insist that they face the consequences like adults and learn from their transgressions?


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

bfree said:


> Going back to your discussion with your children....you said that you want them to always be honest with you regardless of what they've done. If they committed a crime would you try to help them by covering it up for them? Or would you insist that they face the consequences like adults and learn from their transgressions?


Why, I would ensure that they got as soft a landing as possible according to my ability and moral framework. 

What would you do?


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

JCD said:


> Why, I would ensure that they got as soft a landing as possible according to my ability and moral framework.
> 
> What would you do?


Support them emotionally and in any way I can. But I would let nature take its due course.

My kids are getting older now. My wife and I have had the "talk" with them. I told each of them that if they get caught with drugs I will still love them but they will likely go to jail and I won't interfere in the wheels of justice. Same thing for any other crimes they might commit. I have told them that if they get a girl pregnant their mother and I will not help them raise the child. If they are old enough to have sex and stupid enough to not take precautions they are on their own. They must understand that when they make adult decisions they must accept the consequences like an adult. This is why most on here are disagreeing with you on this issue. We are taught as children that we must take responsibility for our actions. But sometimes as adults we try to avoid that responsibility. It's not the way a civilized society behaves and why most blanch at people who try to skirt the law.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

It may turn out to be no win, but the WS knew that when they acted selfishly. They should face the music they orchestrated, even if they don't like the way it sounds.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

JCD said:


> This isn't evil, it's thoughtlessness. I'm not dragging anyone anywhere. The impact of my death on my spouse (just like the impact of infidelity) doesn't cross my mind...until suddenly I'm stuck.


Here's the thing, though, to further your cliff analogy.

Your spouse is tied to you with a rope. Yet the spouse does not know you went down the cliff, and does not know he/she is in great danger. If you go a short distance down the slope and then come to your senses, you climb out of the situation without reaching the point of doing anything stupid and without endangering your spouse. But if you go too far down that slope you pass the point of no return.

Now your spouse is faced with either pulling you back up the cliff face by him/her self, cutting the rope and letting you land wherever you may, or letting you pull him/her down with you.

And to emphasize, all of this endangerment was done without the prior knowledge or consent of the spouse serenely sitting at the top of the cliff with that rope tied to him/her. So the cliff-scamperer is not morally justified in the behavior in the first place. The decision to cut the rope or to try to haul the cliff climber back up is rightfully the person at the top of the cliff.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

bfree said:


> Support them emotionally and in any way I can. But I would let nature take its due course.
> 
> My kids are getting older now. My wife and I have had the "talk" with them. I told each of them that if they get caught with drugs I will still love them but they will likely go to jail and I won't interfere in the wheels of justice. Same thing for any other crimes they might commit. I have told them that if they get a girl pregnant their mother and I will not help them raise the child. If they are old enough to have sex and stupid enough to not take precautions they are on their own. They must understand that when they make adult decisions they must accept the consequences like an adult. This is why most on here are disagreeing with you on this issue. We are taught as children that we must take responsibility for our actions. But sometimes as adults we try to avoid that responsibility. It's not the way a civilized society behaves and why most blanch at people who try to skirt the law.



Ah...so you never tried to talk a cop out of minimizing a traffic ticket...or asked someone in authority to cut you a little slack...or engaged in blatant tax avoidance (not evasion)

Kudos.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

JCD said:


> Ah...so you never tried to talk a cop out of minimizing a traffic ticket...or asked someone in authority to cut you a little slack...or engaged in blatant tax avoidance (not evasion)
> 
> Kudos.


Some people have enough self esteem not to beg for anything from anyone and never to put themselves in situations where they have to.

Self esteem is a practiced trait like honesty and courage, you need to be a lifelong practitioner to get good at it.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

People cheat because of selfishness. People lie because of selfishness. People try to minimize their behavior because of selfishness. 

A ONS is NOT just one "simple" act of sex with one person. There's an entire psychology that goes into the cheating. It involves selfishness, self-centeredness, lack of self-control/impulse control; lack of self-esteem, being egotistical, vanity, greed, lust, lack of self-awareness, lack ofr humility, immaturity...to name a few. 

The cheater doesn't "find God", have a "revelation" or an "epiphany" immediately after having a ONS. If they did, they would recognize that cheating involves selfishness as does lying about it. They would come clean, 'man or woman up' and be prepared to pay the piper. They would understand that thy made a choice and that there are consequences for that choice. They would not try to 'minimize' the transgression to themselves, let alone, to their partner. 

If the cheater 'swears' to themselves that the cheating will "never happen again", it doesn't mean that the cheater has eliminated what CAUSED the cheating in the first place. 

By wanting to hide and minimize the cheating further proves that the cheater has NOT *changed*. 

Vega


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

JCD said:


> Ah...so you never tried to talk a cop out of minimizing a traffic ticket...or asked someone in authority to cut you a little slack...or engaged in blatant tax avoidance (not evasion)
> 
> Kudos.


No on the traffic ticket. If I break any traffic laws I apologize for my error and speak respectfully to the officer. I have friends in law enforcement and they hear it all the time so I wouldn't even try to talking an officer out of ticketing me.

I don't have to ask anyone in authority to cut me some slack because I tend to be nice and accomodating to everyone. My reputation for fairness and extreme honesty tend to set people at ease and I don't have to ask for anything. And I wouldn't lower myself to try. Its this little thing called self respect.

As for my taxes I take what I'm entitled to by law and I pay what I'm expected to. Don't you?


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

bfree said:


> No on the traffic ticket. If I break any traffic laws I apologize for my error and speak respectfully to the officer. I have friends in law enforcement and they hear it all the time so I wouldn't even try to talking an officer out of ticketing me.
> 
> I don't have to ask anyone in authority to cut me some slack because I tend to be nice and accomodating to everyone. My reputation for fairness and extreme honesty tend to set people at ease and I don't have to ask for anything. And I wouldn't lower myself to try. Its this little thing called self respect.


Now *THIS* is what I call _*maturity*_!

Maturity isn't necessarily not _making_ mistakes; it's taking responsibility for those mistakes we make, learning from them, and exercising self-awareness and self-control so we don't make them again!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

JCD you are making a moral argument, and I agree to a point (as you know). But what about the practicalities?

My marriage, good as it is, is forever scarred by both the emotional / physical infidelity, and the lies. I chose to stay, no regrets, happy with what I have now, but it still hurts. I still look at her sometimes and wonder.....

I can understand the lies while it was going on, but the fact that she lied after the fact, trying to minimise the extent of things, when we both knew I had enough information to hang her, did sooooo much more damage. And I cross examined her and started poking holes in her story, and she kept trying to hold it together, and it jut got more and more ridiculous.

Plus she knew she was keeping secrets and that became a barrier too.

I've now seen a number of marriages where infidelity occurred and was not properly dealt with at the time...by coming clean and working through the issues. Of those, mine is the only one that survived. And it survived only because for a very long time I subjugated my emotional needs to fulfil what I saw as my duty to my kids. Even then, when the kids had become adults, we then had to deal with some stuff, and for a time divorce was a real possibility.

You simply cannot build an intimate relationship on lies. Morals aside, it doesn't work from a basic human psychological point of view.

I don't know the thread that started this. But I firmly believe the only way to deal with such a situation is to take the plunge and tell. Husband may divorce, or he may look over the cliff and decide to reconcile. And I don't care what he said when it was a theoretical discussion....you don't know how you will respond until you are in the situation. But if he chooses to end it...I think it is better than spending years in a lie followed by a slow death.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

JCD said:


> So, one day, I did a questionable thing. I started climbing down the side of a cliff. It looked fun, didn't look too difficult and I'd climbed steep slopes before without getting scathed.
> 
> Well...about half way down, I realized that the face of this particular cliff had a lot of dirt and that didn't lend itself well to handholds. I also realized that because of that same issue, I wasn't sure if I could get back up again.
> 
> ...


I do like that analogy, so let’s play it a bit deeper. While stuck there on the cliff, you do make some neural pathways link. You decide that this endeavor risked everything you had accomplished in your life. If you die, you will be remembered as the fool who died on some lonely cliff he had no business climbing. 

Now, there are two personality kinds. You somehow make it off that cliff.

Trait one is the one who takes pride in himself for beating the odds and coming out on top. Win. But you can’t share this with anyone. So, you nurse it in your head. Boosted self-confidence and more willing to take ‘lesser’ risk in the future because you’ve survived worse. 

Trait two had a deep reflection. You vowed to never risk your life like that again. You still can’t share this with anyone, and recollections about that event fill you with shame. You avoid risk taking in the future on your life.

But what of your spouse? One day you are ‘this way’... then it’s changed. This thing changed your life and by association their life with you. They don’t know why, you won’t answer questions. Something is up and they see a new you that wasn’t there before. Now they get to fill in the blanks ‘guessing’. Those guesses might be bad things like you are dissatisfied with your life you’ve built with them.... So they start changing. 


It never goes back to how it was whether you tell or not. If you do tell, at least your spouse knows why and that can open up discussions about what they are going to do and how they are going to deal with these changes in you and visa-versa and you might be able to face it together (or it might end). They’ll know why and react based on facts and realities versus something they made up in their mind about you that is based entirely on speculation and fabrication. 

Oh, and I’d say adultery is (or should be for someone remorseful) a life-altering event. If it isn’t, then it’s “just sex” and you’ve devalued your actions already as ‘not so bad’. You know it’s not right, but given the right circumstances, you will do it again unless it changed your life. Not so bad leads to a lot of circumstances where internally you’ll be fine doing it again. 

Sort of gets back to the Trait 1 person. Next time you’ll just look over the cliff, note where the handholds are, and plan your decent better. It won’t really occur to you strongly that you shouldn’t even be planning how you might do it this next time. And you’ll tell yourself that you don’t need to do it again. But it becomes a fantasy of ‘glory’, then one day, you decide you need to prove this to yourself again that you can beat that cliff once again and relive that moment of pride for yourself.... Then you find yourself stuck on that same cliff face again... (repeat).


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Oh and to add a new analogy...

Your parents die in a most embarrassing, shameful way. Rather than face it and the trauma it is putting you through, you decide not to tell your spouse and upset them too.

Discuss what happens next because your spouse is going to notice something changed. How deep you going to go with the lies? Those changes alone might start some really deep resentments in them. Unexplained loss of libido, unexplained emotional outburst, depression, etc. And you are popping out answers and excuses. So they are trying to help you and working on things that won't help because it really isn't about 'stress at work' or 'body issues' or _________. And they will be frustrated because it doesn't seem like anything is getting better with you and they are trying. They want to help. They don't like seeing you so depressed and numb. 

And you are getting annoyed with them always doing this little stuff and wanting to talk about work and trying to get you to change jobs and always pressuring for sex and _______. So you start getting angry all the time. You start demanding "some space" to think.

That's better?


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> JCD,
> 
> So you are trying to lead everyone to the conclusion that we all make bad decisions and mistakes. Some are even unlawful mistakes and choices. What does that have to do with true remorse, which is necessary for real long-term reconciliation?


Well, I've never been in the presence of so many Saints before, so I have to wonder at how incredibly unworthy I am to actually dare to suggest compassion, sympathy and perhaps a listening ear to a person who makes a mistake instead of ultimatums.

I guess making mistakes and bad judgment calls is just for us poor flawed people. You can add idiocy to the long list of my character defects.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> Again, this is projection.
> 
> 2ntnuf, you KNEW (the pain comes with the knowing) and the affair seems to have been semi public. So the public damage to your relationship and reputation was real.
> 
> ...


Doesn't seem you learned much from your betrayal. That's pretty sad.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

JCD said:


> Well, I've never been in the presence of so many Saints before, so I have to wonder at how incredibly unworthy I am to actually dare to suggest compassion, sympathy and perhaps a listening ear to a person who makes a mistake instead of ultimatums.
> 
> I guess making mistakes and bad judgment calls is just for us poor flawed people. You can add idiocy to the long list of my character defects.


Sarcasm noted. 

Why do you keep referring to a ONS as *a* "mistake"? 

As another poster pointed out, people don't have sex by "accident". There was a LOT that led up to that ONS, and the cheater could have stopped at any point along the way. The cheater could have stopped...

...the first time she kissed him...
...the first time he kissed HER...
...when unbuttoning his shirt...
...when unzipping her jeans...
...when taking off his shoes...
....when slipping off her pantie hose...

After all they had to FIND someplace to 'do it'. Either one of them had MORE than ample time to change their mind. 

Neither one of them did. 

It was a series of poor decisions that led to the ONS. The cheater had MORE than enough time to think about what they were doing/about to do and STOP. 

This was NOT a simple "mistake". A "mistake" may have been flirting with someone you just met...or maybe even kissing him or her. But having full-blown intercourse, is NOT a "mistake", even if it IS a ONS. 

It's not the BS who lacks compassion; it's the WS who lacks compassion. 

The WS has no right to insist on RECEIVING compassion when the WS was so unwilling to first GIVE it (to the BS). To do so *proves* the arrogance of the WS.

If the WS had compassion for the BS from the start, the WS never would have cheated...

Vega


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

JCD said:


> Well, I've never been in the presence of so many Saints before, so I have to wonder at how incredibly unworthy I am to actually dare to suggest compassion, sympathy and perhaps a listening ear to a person who makes a mistake instead of ultimatums.
> 
> I guess making mistakes and bad judgment calls is just for us poor flawed people. You can add idiocy to the long list of my character defects.


JCD, we have talked on enough threads that you low I share your views on compassion.

It's not enough. That's the point. Sometimes things are broken and you can't fix them. Lying is not a solution. It is a delaying tactic which has the side effect of making the problem worse. 

I can find you any number of threads by people who found out about their partners infidelity years after the event. It is still explosive, and reconciliation made harder by the passage of time.

I can find you any number of threads by people who just find the spark is gone from the marriage and they can't do it any more.

So your adulterous female lies, cheats....and the lie eats her. The relationship is always flawed because of the lie. Her needs aren't being met. Meantime, her husband knows something has changed but can't put a finger on it. 

When I have scene that scenario in real life, most cases the end result is divorce, possibly preceeded by another affair as one of the partners tres to get their needs met. Far better in my view to attack it early. I reckon the chances are better.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

JCD,

I don't think you accomplish anything by ridiculing those who disagree with you.

I see things, differently than you, but I would defend you from anyone who wanted to insult you for your beliefs.

You asked for poster's opinions on a hypothetical situation. They can only answer based on their own views. 

You have every right to disagree, and I will be the first to say you are not 'wrong', as I do not think anyone can dictate to another person how they should act or believe in this world.

But I also claim the right to have a different opinion myself.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Excuse me, but how do you know it's a kept lie which lead to divorce if the lie was kept secret?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

JCD said:


> Excuse me, but how do you know it's a kept lie which lead to divorce if the lie was kept secret?


Because it usually comes out.

Edit : obviously a divorce is complex and I am diagnosing. I could be wrong. But that is what I believe.

We are created with a need for connection. Lies destroy that connection. Guilt eats at people..they either break and confess, or become hard, and able to lie. Think about the literal meaning of the word "integrity" and how is is impossible to lie and have integrity.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> JCD,
> 
> I don't think you accomplish anything by ridiculing those who disagree with you.
> 
> ...


I don't have a problem with that.

I have a problem with claims of inexorable moral superiority and implied slights to my character.

One is better morally...until one isn't. It might not be Lust. There are seven deadly sins. And I can't count the number of threads in which a person started it by saying "I never expected myself to be in this situation..."

I think it is unsettling to many to think that an extra Cosmo, a fight with the wife, a hard and stressful day at the office...or even the giddy cheer of a job well done/ a game conquered can make one...slip. Better to believe one is immune.

What is my touchstone?

There but for the grace of God go I.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Because it usually comes out.


So...how many haven't come out?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

JCD said:


> So...how many haven't come out?


See my edits on the post you quoted.

How many marriages ended later because "we just didn't have the spark"?

How many close friends do you lie to and sustain successful intimate friendships?


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

JCD said:


> It is always a choice.
> 
> One does not plan to turn left and get hit by a semi...but it was a choice none the less. A quickly made, stupid choice but with consequences just as shattering.


No but they figured that they were clever enough that they could sneak through the on coming traffic and not get burned.

Same logic is used when the WS decides to have an affair.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Wazza said:


> See my edits on the post you quoted.
> 
> How many marriages ended later because "we just didn't have the spark"?
> 
> How many close friends do you lie to and sustain successful intimate friendships?


I'm sorry. I never expected that I knew everything about anyone, including my wife. This is, technically, a lie by omission by not sharing everything.

I would correct you in saying a lie 'damages' a relationship. Destroy is absolute...and probably overstated.

The loss of 'spark' can be attributed to many factors.

But I understand your point and agree to a certain extent.

It CAN happen. Does it always happen? No data.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I have compassion for WS’s. They did make serious errors in judgement. As you know though, there are only two kinds of WS’s; Remorseful and unremorseful.

Can you say JCD, that adultery didn’t change you? Are you the same person before as you are now? It is a trick question..... If you didn’t change, you aren’t remorseful and have the same internal flaws that made it ‘ok’ in the first place. If you are remorseful, you probably went through a lot of self-loathing and change to be someone you could be proud of. You handle things different now.

Do you think your spouse noticed those changes? I would hope so. That should have been broad enough to add new breath into your marriage. 

Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d bet you have triggers too yes? Certain things remind you of those past failings. They are probably not completely rational emotional responses to the seemingly normal people who don’t share those memories with you. I also bet your spouse detects those irrational moments and flares of emotion during those triggers.

If you didn’t tell your spouse the “why”, how many further lies are you going to tell to cover this up? ... having been lied to that way, it did not make sense to me. That made my wife look more and more ‘insane’ and untrustworthy. Hell, I’ll use part of my story with my WW that the damaging action wasn’t even a choice or when I was in the picture.

It started with hiding how messed up her head was after her rape. And you bet I noticed; The low libido, the treating sex as a commodity, the controlling aspect, etc.. All the signs, none of the work to correct these hangups. I bought her excuses and tried to fix that not knowing any better and not having the full story. Zero results and frustration for me... Why? Because we were working on fixing these things she used as an excuse instead of dealing with the real issue behind the scenes of her rape trauma. 

As the counselor put it, he is only as good as the information he is provided so he can diagnose the problem. When you lie like that, and lie to cover up the lying, you are creating a complete fabrication of who you are and what the real issues are. Nothing is repaired and it only gets worse. Because your spouse will detect something is off.... And most start digging a moat.

So those that divorced years after the affair was over. Read those stories, those spouses also didn't feel the marriage was worth saving; Very common. They didn't even know, but there was always that churning gut about this person they were married too. Hardly a glowing relationship since you kinda just feel something is off.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> And with this, I'm just flabbergasted. Wow. Sorry, man seems like some totally off the cuff remark.


Wazza, whom I respect a lot, stated that a kept secret would corrode a relationship like acid until it broke.

BUT...a kept secret is...um...kept. So at best we know a divorce 'just happened'...IF it was kept.

Now, frequently the secret DOES come out. But we have no data at how many smiling spouses are out there who had their little fling...and NEVER GOT CAUGHT. They never told and it never came out. And probably they never did it again.

It could be one. It could be the majority. But neither of us can assert that the truth is always revealed.

Wazza stepped back from that assertion in his edit, but the point is valid I think


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

JCD,

I agree with you that the vast majority of cheating is not planned in some wicked conspiracy, at least when it first begins.

It usually is an unexpected situation where a person with poor boundary issues and some dissatisfaction with their M gets swept away to a place they did not consciously plan to go.

This then can stay a ONS, or be the beginning of a longer term A.

But regardless of the unintended nature of the episode, I still think they have permanently shattered their R. 

The only true path forward is to confess and allow their BS the choice to walk away or try to build a new marriage.

The old one is dead.

And I think even if the WS hides the A/ONS, it will always be present in the M. 

Even if its in unconscious ways, the WS will be different in the relationship if they are truly remorseful. The damage might be partially, or even skillfully, covered up, but it will always be there.

And if they are not remorseful, it will happen again.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Racer said:


> Can you say JCD, that adultery didn’t change you? Are you the same person before as you are now?


It did.



> Do you think your spouse noticed those changes? I would hope so.


She did.



> That should have been broad enough to add new breath into your marriage.


It has.




> Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d bet you have triggers too yes?


I do. I avoid them.

One thing: I didn't lie about what was going on. If any lies were told, I told them to myself first. That is a tricky thing to get out of, let me tell you.

Thanks for asking.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

JCD said:


> Wazza, whom I respect a lot, stated that a kept secret would corrode a relationship like acid until it broke.
> 
> BUT...a kept secret is...um...kept. So at best we know a divorce 'just happened'...IF it was kept.
> 
> ...


I asserted, with data, that it always came out in the cases I know of. But that is not a huge or necessarily representative sample.

I add to that logic, and my own experience. I believe there is a very high likelihood that keeping of secrets will lead to marital issues. 

The other thing is...the girl in your story is vulnerable to cheat....QED because she already has. Keeping secrets is a part of cheating. Not keeping them encourages accountability.


From there, we go back to the moral dimension. The woman has no right to deceive the man and keep the marriage going, under false pretences. When I look at the damage that can do, it is just unspeakably cruel.

My wife may have told be the truth about what happened. It was 23 years ago. At the time I could have checked, confirmed, found peace that I know. Now the trail is cold. By the time I got the truth, there was no way to corroborate it. I just have to live with the doubt that implants for the rest of my life. That damages intimacy.

To the extent that my wife wanted to spare my feelings i appreciate the thought, though the approach was wrong. To the extent that she just wanted to cover her ass...and there was at last an element of that......it is the cruelest thing she has ever done to me. 

And my wife is a decent person who made bad decisions. She is not by nature a sneak.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I have to agree quite a bit with Racer's comments.
> 
> Something I want to say is that, even though I believe that once the barrier of infidelity is crossed it becomes much easier to do it again, I do believe this to be more certain with the betrayed spouse than a new relationship that has the respect of the wayward.
> 
> ...


I went through the new marriage thing, and would not be still married if I had not used that approach.

But I hit the wall with it. I eventually had to see the new marriage as a continuation of the old. I had taken off the wedding ring. I had to put it back on again. Amazing how hard it was to do that.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I asserted, with data, that it always came out in the cases I know of. But that is not a huge or necessarily representative sample.
> 
> I add to that logic, and my own experience. I believe there is a very high likelihood that keeping of secrets will lead to marital issues.
> 
> ...


In principle I agree. How can I not? 

HOWEVER...

Right now, the thread this situation is based on has imploded. Following the advice doled out with such certainty by some of the TAMsketeers, she revealed her affair. She's getting a divorce, her husband walked out, he started a fight in her work and is probably arrested, whomever the OM is will probably ALSO get a divorce, the wife and husband might very well lose their jobs and some kid they were planning on adopting will never get taken in.

Might I observe that the lie of omission would have to have some pretty damned potent and quick effects to match the havoc and destruction this act of revelation caused.

Yes, you can blame the cheating. That is AN act. Revelation is ALSO an act.

Just saying.

So...potential divorce by lie or divorce by revelation...with a few felonies added on. :scratchhead:


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

JCD said:


> In principle I agree. How can I not?
> 
> HOWEVER...
> 
> ...


Wrong measure IMO.

The implosion was caused because she cheated IMO. Not because she revealed. You cannot know what would have been different.

Supposing he had found out years later, and angry at living a lie for decades, killed himself? Or hunted OM down What if, what if......you can never know.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Wazza said:


> I add to that logic, and my own experience. I believe there is a very high likelihood that keeping of secrets will lead to marital issues.
> .
> .
> .
> ...


Yup. My wife has kept a number of significant secrets, some of which I now know for certain. Yes we have had many issues as a result of her hiding information and me thus spinning my wheels in the wrong direction.

Yup, it is wrong and cruel to use false pretenses to keep someone in a relationship. When the truth starts coming out it is a tough thing to come to grips with.

I think the concept of "sparing the feelings of the other" is mostly a self deception. The lie is made in the first place out of self preservation of some sort, not out of altruism.

My wife is a very decent person who has some very screwed up models of relationships. She is in fact a sneak by nature.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Thor said:


> Yup. My wife has kept a number of significant secrets, some of which I now know for certain. Yes we have had many issues as a result of her hiding information and me thus spinning my wheels in the wrong direction.
> 
> Yup, it is wrong and cruel to use false pretenses to keep someone in a relationship. When the truth starts coming out it is a tough thing to come to grips with.
> 
> ...


Some people like privacy. That can be characterized as 'being a sneak'. That isn't a good or bad thing: it just is and you have a problem with it...and THAT is not good or bad either. But it speaks to compatibility.

I have my own compatibility issues with my wife


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## jay_gatsby (Jun 4, 2013)

I don't want to thread jack, but since the thread is called "infidelity and no win situations", I'd like to post a question. Reading thru this thread and others, there is obviously a difference between ONS or short term relationships and those that go on for a long time, ie years. Cheating is cheating no matter how you look at it, but is there a difference with LTAs? There has to be a difference in the mindset of those who carry on these affairs as opposed to the infatuation, loose inhibition, midlife crisis, or whatever excuse you want to fill in, type. Are the people who do this worse then ones who have ONS?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Thor said:


> Yup. My wife has kept a number of significant secrets, some of which I now know for certain. Yes we have had many issues as a result of her hiding information and me thus spinning my wheels in the wrong direction.
> 
> Yup, it is wrong and cruel to use false pretenses to keep someone in a relationship. When the truth starts coming out it is a tough thing to come to grips with.
> 
> ...


I can relate to a lot of this.



JCD said:


> Some people like privacy. That can be characterized as 'being a sneak'. That isn't a good or bad thing: it just is and you have a problem with it...and THAT is not good or bad either. But it speaks to compatibility.
> 
> I have my own compatibility issues with my wife


Maybe.

I would never have used the word sneak, but I need to think about that.

Mrs Wazza is a very private person. Mostly she simply withholds information, but she will lie. As a habit, it grew. So at first it was lying about big things...like her affair. Then it was lies for convenience, to the point where it got ridiculous. 

Given that this aspect of her character was part of what enabled the affair, I chose to be zero tolerance. I have never embarrassed her in public, but I have called her on it in private. It has got a lot better.

If she can lie to me as a matter of convenience, then sorry, but to me it is sneaky. And given the history of infidelity, if it was protracted I would consider divorce over it.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> ........ Sorry for the rant, JCD. Not mad at anyone. This isn't even a trigger. It's what I lived. I will take it down tomorrow afternoon so it doesn't eat up your thread space.


Don't take it down, 2ntnuf. There is plenty of thread space. I'm a FWS. Not your FWS, obviously, but still, this is exactly the kind of post that could make an impact on someone before they decided to choose infidelity as a means of coping with an unhappy marriage. I have been blessed beyond measure to now be over a year into reconciliation with B1, my BS, after my long term EA/PA. I won't go into specific details, here, as our story is already well documented on TAM. I will say that B1 and I have both worked very, very hard to build a new marriage and that we are doing remarkably well and plan to renew our wedding vows next summer on our 30th wedding anniversary.

Our marriage was extremely troubled for quite sometime prior to my infidelity and I have often wondered, given the circumstances, at the time, what might have been able to stop me, reach me, cause me to put the breaks on what I knew was going to happen before the damage was done. I have never pretended to be a "victim" of my choice to commit adultery. I made a choice. It didn't "just happen." In fact, I was the driving force behind it. It is my greatest regret in life. My husband must truly be the strongest man who ever lived. He has found the strength to love me, to forgive me, and to reconcile with me. He has also searched deeply within himself to become an even better man than he was before. As I said, he and I have both worked very hard to reach this place. I've spent the last 15 months giving him every ounce of my heart, soul, strength, love, compassion and understanding to help him heal. Now, he says that it is his turn to help me heal, as I had many of my own unhealed psychological wounds from issues in our marriage prior to my infidelity. I'm still struggling to forgive myself. Still, we both feel very blessed and very fortunate to be where we are, now, after having been together since the age of 17, over 32 years ago.

Your story is heart wrenching and I could literally feel your pain as I read it. I imagine that it had to be somewhat therapeutic for you just putting it out there. I hope so. I've read 100's of heartbreaking stories on TAM. Yours spoke to me. Your posts are extremely articulate and you convey your emotions very well. I wish I could have read a story like this before I chose to cheat. I keep searching for something that would have stopped me when I didn't have the will, the desire or the strength to stop myself. Reading a story like yours might have made a difference for me. I'd like to think it would have.

Thank you for sharing it. I wish you continued healing and I hope you find the happiness that you so richly deserve.

JCD..... Sorry for the thread jack. I don't think you'll mind, as I believe that your purpose for posting on TAM appears to be to encourage a greater understanding of infidelity and a respectful dialog between WS's and BS's so that we can learn from one another and, hopefully, heal.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

2, I am very sorry for your story, and I assure you it can be better.

My last post doesn't really say what I wanting to say.

There are lies, there are white lies and there is tact, and the boindaries between them can be a grey area. Mrs Wazza is seeking to be tactful. It is just at times she goes to far...tact moves towards lies. And it went right into lies during her affair.

And JCD that is partly the problem. Someone in a affair loses perspective. They make bad decisions. They don't understand.


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## Doc Who (Sep 9, 2012)

To address the original post - are you asking for rationalizations to support her decision to continue to lie or are you looking for people to tell you that saying "arbitrarily" stating to you spouse that if you cheat it will be the end of marriage is fundamentally wrong?

Neither position is likely to get a lot of support on TAM. Lying has created all kinds of messes well documented on this board. Also, boundaries [and not accepting infidelity is a boundary] are generally encouraged and there is more anecdotal evidence that sticking to boundaries is healthier than not.

I did find your scenario of exposure - doomsday - quite an interesting read. It is indeed possible. It is also possible that her husband will find forgiveness in his heart is he finds remorse in her soul and actions that match. But i digress.

If I read your scenario correctly, your friend believes that keeping her secret would be advantageous because she would get her desired outcome - she would stay married and face no consequences for her actions. Wouldn't we all like the outcomes in our lives to favor us? I do believe that most of us think lying will get us the outcome we want. We can manipulate the circumstances to get the desired outcome. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. 

But like cancer, we can hope our lie will not spread its insidious destruction through our lives. We think we can "will it" to be contained. But the more likely result is that the lie, like the cancer, will eat at us and cause more damage before we finally have to deal with it.

But I completely understand the instinct to keep our disease (lie) a secret and pray that it stays our secret forever. But that doesn't make it the best course of action.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

I've been on the infidelity coaster for just about 2½ years now, so I have enough room in my heart to feel sorry and have compassion for those who, for any reason, in a weak moment, choose to cheat. For many, I asume, it's tough to face consequences if they really, really regret what they did. I get that, and I'm very tempted to say "Live with it, and move on".

There's a reason I don't support this choice. I agree with all those who point out, that infidelity is bound to have some sort of negative influence on the relationship if kept secret - IMO.

But what hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet is the cruel disempowerment of the betrayed spouse. It just feels so humiliating to have your spouse decide on your behalf, that you get to live in an open marriage/share your partner without the possibility to accept or reject.

I demand to be involved when extensive decissions of that kind regarding MY marriage and MY family are made. And this position trumps my compassion for the WS who has to face consequences of her/his bad choice, I'm sorry.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

JCD said:


> Some people like privacy. That can be characterized as 'being a sneak'. That isn't a good or bad thing: it just is and you have a problem with it...and THAT is not good or bad either. But it speaks to compatibility.
> 
> I have my own compatibility issues with my wife


There are different types of lies, and there are different levels of being a sneak. Sneaking is a withholding of information, not necessarily lying or doing something wrong.

I dislike the use of the word sneak, because it implies a harmless omission.

There is a particularly dishonest version of sneaking within marriages, which is when important information is withheld for the purpose of altering the other person's perceptions, decisions, and actions.

My wife's "sneaking" is in fact a very sophisticated and calculated type of dishonesty. She'll provide a single factually correct piece of information when asked a direct question, or she will volunteer it when it suits her purpose. Yet this data point misrepresents the whole picture in some way. Then when I am satisfied with that data point she stfu.

Other times she intentionally lied about important facts, either directly giving false information or failing to volunteer important information.

All of this might be characterized as "sneaking" because she was trying to hide something from me, it was certainly not harmless or minor.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

My fWW didn't tell me. Well, she told me she'd been writing him, emailing and chatting. There were even a couple video chats (well OK she didn't tell me about those). I found out because I hijacked their affair email account. It was all right there. 

I confronted her, and she at first of course denied it. I had the date wrong, that was the year before we got together. Now she's admitted it, and finally says she's glad I found out, because she didn't want our relationship to be based on a lie. A lie she (and he) kept for two years. 

The PA is bad enough. The lies are bad enough. We re-took our vows before she told me, and at that point she still wasn't ever going to tell me. 

The vows, to me, are worthless. The rings we wear, other than the thousands they're worth on the market, are worthless to me. Every time I see her ring now, I wonder where she put it when she met up with him, because I am sure (I haven't asked, but I'm sure) she never told him about our vows to each other. Oh, he was still married, by the way. 

She didn't want to tell me because she didn't want to hurt me. Too late, woman. 

What made me do the sleuthing, two years after the fact? One day she was really mad at me and mentioned his "unforgettable ass." That is a pretty harsh insult, using OM to compare to me, and making him superior. It pissed me off and made me go into sleuth mode, because how I was sure they were still talking, still planning and plotting, and she still wanted me to feel the pain of it. 

So it comes out eventually, at least in my case with my personality. Am I better off knowing? No, I don't feel I am. Should she have told me? Yes, she should have. Had she told me when it happened, we would not be together. I'd have nothing more to do with her. 

We don't have kids together, so there's nothing like that holding this together. I love her and know she regrets the whle sordid affair, and she truly only wants to be with me. She tells me and shows me that daily. 

But there's a part of me that will never feel the same love for her that I did before, because when I look at her sometimes all I feel is the pain.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

As to the original dilemma for this thread, I approached my wife twice about affairs. One time I asked her directly, "Have there been any affairs of any kind, emotional or physical, with anyone, male or female, since we've been married?". I was advised by a psychologist to be very specific in order to close any sneaky loopholes.

This question was preceeded by saying to her I wanted the marriage (which was very damaged at the time), and in order to move forward we needed to put everything on the table.

She, of course, denied there had been any affairs.

A few months later I found her razor in my car. (I still believe it is hers, and the only logical conclusion is it was for a surprise getaway with someone.) I did not mention affairs but I did ask her if it was hers (she denies it), and I told her we could work through anything as long as I found out from her, but if I found out some other way that she has been hiding something from me it would be a deal breaker. She said there was nothing else out there.

Even with my assurances of wanting to try to work through things she did not admit to anything. I can see how the Catch 22 is now in place, much as in the case of the other thread, where she is afraid to reveal an affair.

This dilemma was caused by the cheater not the husband who declared his boundary of not staying with a wife who cheated.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Thor said:


> This dilemma was caused by the cheater not the husband who declared his boundary of not staying with a wife who cheated.


It is a Catch 22. You want to think your SO will never stray. So you say, "Here's my boundary on that." They stray. Your move.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

So, people in favor of not admitting of cheating and keeping it a secret in order to keep the family intact, are concerned with the cheater's right of happiness.

OK, I get that. 

But, what about a BS's right of not being cheated on? What about a BS's right to have a true and honest marriage? What about a BS's right to have a partner 100% devoted emotionally and physically?

Please don't tell me that the knowledge of cheating will only hurt the BS and the cheater needs to keep it a secret to protect the BS. That's a cheater's logic.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

double post


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

And I’m still stuck on the fact that a lot of us here had spouses who did try the “don’t tell” and swore to themselves they’d change. I had six years of that. Watch the actions, not the words....

The action is to lie about something to their spouse that is really sort of a ‘big deal’. Dance around it as much as you want. It is one of the character defining moments where the action of how you deal with it speaks volumes about the type of person you are. 

And your primary advisor is a mirror and a person who has advised you to omit, lie and cheat on your spouse then run from any consequences. What further sage advice might that reflection give? You’ve stopped looking to your spouse for relationship advice.... That was your choice. Is it really still a marriage at that point when they are no longer part of how this relationship dynamic works? Didn’t you just have a coup and assume control of what needs to be shared and what doesn’t as far as ‘your life’ is concerned? Didn’t you just draw a line that there is a real big difference in your head that your ‘personal life’ is something ‘outside’ the marriage you'd rather not be judged by? 

You might value the marriage, but you surely don’t respect it anymore.

This leads to bad things.


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## Doc Who (Sep 9, 2012)

It is interesting that the story of how one can be self-reflective, learn from his or her mistakes, and redeem oneself from an egregious sin is a tenet of many religions and cultures.

However, most of those cultures and religions require some form of confession and repentance. It is far to easy for one to rationalize your bad choices (sins) as has been more elequently said elsewhere.

But it does come at a price. Confession may be good for the soul. And the truth shall set you free. But both may hurt you like a mutha-f&cker in the meantime.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Doc Who,

"Confession may be good for the soul. And the truth shall set you free. But both may hurt you like a mutha-f&cker in the meantime."

I think this is because confession is a mental and emotional form of 'purging'. 

Just as purging of the body can be physically painful or uncomfortable, confession can be mentally and emotionally hurtful until the process is complete.


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