# New Guy Here



## bunnahabhain

Hi everyone.

My wife recently asked for a divorce. We're going through the paperwork.

I'm joining to exhaust every possibility out there for salvaging a marriage that I think my wife has plenty of good reasons to end, and plenty of good reasons to keep, and to learn from others who are going through similar experiences.

Thank you.


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## Mr.Married

Look man, I hate to breat the bad news but there is a very common saying around these parts ....

When a woman is done.....she is done. 

More than likely you could spend all your time and effort extending your pain....but outcome is usually the same.

Go read some of the topics here on the forum about guys that have tried this ..... these guys are in horrible shape. Do you want to do that to yourself?


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## UpsideDownWorld11

How long have ya'll been married? Any kids?


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## Spicy

Welcome to TAM. Sorry to hear you are going through a divorce. Would you like to tell us a little about yourself, family and how you ended up at this point?


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## wilson

Can you give a quick summary of the basic details like length of marriage, kids, do both of you work, etc.


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## bunnahabhain

Thanks everyone, it's great to meet you all.

No kids, so I suppose that's "fortunate."

We met in our last years of college, I was in a frat, she was in a sorority, we went hiking and hit it off and moved in 3 months later. 5 years after that, we got married and bought a house.

She still has all of our wedding photos up. We still live in the same house, sleep in the same bed, watch TV and work in the same rooms. I can't move out and pay half of a mortgage and rent. I let her know that if this is going to happen then the house has to be put on the market by March so that I can start thinking about moving out.

I'm not a physically violent or abusive person. I accept that I was emotionally abusive in not being there for her, letting her take on most of the responsibilities and never even making my gratitude known, never validating her feelings vs. giving my opinion on everything. She says that we're getting older (she's 28 and I'm 31), she's changing and wants to try things out on her own, and that she can't trust me and wait any longer.

Edit: Yes, we both work. We both have great careers and make similar amounts of money. We both had a great sex life up until the Friday she asked for divorce.

My grandfather, who's been through this 5 times, said that if it wasn't the money and it wasn't the sex, then it was my lack of emotional support.

I know that if I hold out that it will hurt at the end. Once we sell the house and move out, at that point the game changes quite a bit. Until then, I know I have the strength to be put my neck on the line and I'm pretty committed to not allowing her last memory of me be of a lazy *******. All the pain in the end, I feel, will be worth it if I know that at least I am trying to correct myself.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

check your phone bill


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## bunnahabhain

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> check your phone bill


Unfortunately, with things like Snapchat, it's hard for me to get a gauge on whether there's someone else.

The day before she asked for divorce I finally confronted her about the new password on her phone and her defensiveness when I wanted to use it to browse the internet (because I didn't have mine on me or w/e). We had always known each other's passwords.

She told me the next day that she had passworded it because she was having conversations with friends and family about divorce and she didn't want me to see.

She brought it up again earlier this week because I had passworded my iPad and phone, and she reiterated that and said that she did after she thought I had read one of her snap chats. She had gotten one and it wasn't there.

I don't read her snap chats or messages or anything. Never have (doesn't mean I haven't manifested my jealousy in other ways, I definitely have). I have an OCD and habit of closing all active windows on a phone, so I probably closed her snap chat out of that OCD.

Edit: I also straight out asked her if there's someone else. She said no.


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## personofinterest

I suggest 2 things simultaneously:

1.


> I accept that I was emotionally abusive in not being there for her, letting her take on most of the responsibilities and never even making my gratitude known, never validating her feelings vs. giving my opinion on everything.


Tell us more about this. It could be "you didn't pay enough attention to me" or it could be "you badgered and belittled and ignored me until my soul was crushed." HOW would you say, specifically that you may have been emotionally abusive?

2.
Do some quiet snooping. If she DOES ever leave her phone unattended, look around it. Same with a computer or tablet. If things raise alarm bells, you might need to snoop closer.

It is highly possible for a woman to get fed up and leave with ZERO affair. It is also highly possible for a woman to make a big deal out of marriage problems as a smoke screen to hide an affair. NO ONE on this board knows which, and so pursuing both possibilities is smart. If she IS like many women who actually DO leave because they are fed up, then there may still be some things you can do to make YOU better, and she may stay if she notices consistency. Or, even if she doesn't, at least you have made yourself better for a future relationship.


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## wilson

Since she wants the divorce, she is the one who gets to move out. DO NOT MOVE OUT! Don't be a doormat and let her call all the shots. If she says you should move out, say "I don't want a divorce. I want to work on the marriage and we need to be together to do that. If you want out, you can leave."

There are some red flags here that warrant looking into, but it also may not matter. It is very hard to rebuild a marriage if she has gotten to the point of wanting a divorce. Often the issues that led up to this point will return over and over in the future. Even if you fix things in the short term, the relationship forward will likely be rocky. But it's probably worth sitting down with her and asking what it would take for her to change her mind. Go to a few sessions of marriage counseling and see what issues come up. If she's totally against working on things, it's probably not worth trying to hard to change her mind.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bunnahabhain said:


> Unfortunately, with things like Snapchat, it's hard for me to get a gauge on whether there's someone else.
> 
> The day before she asked for divorce I finally confronted her about the new password on her phone and her defensiveness when I wanted to use it to browse the internet (because I didn't have mine on me or w/e). We had always known each other's passwords.
> 
> She told me the next day that she had passworded it because she was having conversations with friends and family about divorce and she didn't want me to see.
> 
> She brought it up again earlier this week because I had passworded my iPad and phone, and she reiterated that and said that she did after she thought I had read one of her snap chats. She had gotten one and it wasn't there.
> 
> I don't read her snap chats or messages or anything. Never have (doesn't mean I haven't manifested my jealousy in other ways, I definitely have). I have an OCD and habit of closing all active windows on a phone, so I probably closed her snap chat out of that OCD.
> 
> Edit: I also straight out asked her if there's someone else. She said no.


Phone defensiveness is a classic red flag. So is using it in the bathroom, keeping it under the pillow, etc. 

So is blaming you for the breakdown of the marriage. 

She might be having an affair, she might not. If she is having an affair she is probably not going to admit it to you outright. Just divorce you now and saying the marriage broke done then introduce the new beau when the coast is clear, claim the relationship started after you both separated. 

Assuming you want to know what is really going on you need to play dumb and investigate extremely quietly but vigorously. 

In my experience divorce demands 'out of the blue' usually imply some one else is involved.


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## attheend02

wilson said:


> Since she wants the divorce, she is the one who gets to move out. DO NOT MOVE OUT! Don't be a doormat and let her call all the shots. If she says you should move out, say "I don't want a divorce. I want to work on the marriage and we need to be together to do that. If you want out, you can leave."


On the other hand - if you require her to move out, you will have to pay all the ongoing house expenses, deal with real estate agents.. My wife got it easy cause she rented an apartment and left the details up to me.


Or maybe its because I was a doormat


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## bunnahabhain

personofinterest said:


> Tell us more about this. It could be "you didn't pay enough attention to me" or it could be "you badgered and belittled and ignored me until my soul was crushed." HOW would you say, specifically that you may have been emotionally abusive?
> 
> 2.
> Do some quiet snooping. If she DOES ever leave her phone unattended, look around it. Same with a computer or tablet. If things raise alarm bells, you might need to snoop closer.
> 
> It is highly possible for a woman to get fed up and leave with ZERO affair. It is also highly possible for a woman to make a big deal out of marriage problems as a smoke screen to hide an affair. NO ONE on this board knows which, and so pursuing both possibilities is smart. If she IS like many women who actually DO leave because they are fed up, then there may still be some things you can do to make YOU better, and she may stay if she notices consistency. Or, even if she doesn't, at least you have made yourself better for a future relationship.


I will try to raise my awareness and see if I can discover truth there.

Regarding the emotional abuse, yes I did belittle her. I have called her stupid. I am a reader and a very intellectual person and I get frustrated easily when people "aren't at my level," whatever that means. I've been working on my arrogance there. (Edit: Also, this isn't like an every day thing. I can count the number of times I've said it on my hands, which doesn't make it okay. We talked every day. Texted each other, chatted each other. There was more positive talk than negative. I didn't come home, stonewall her, and call her stupid on the fly.)

I also let her iron my clothes, wash them, clean the house (we did get someone to come every two weeks), walk the dog, clean the windows, tile the floor (I helped break up the old tile and clear the way, but once the tiling started she did most of the work), etc. (Edit: To clarify this poorly written paragraph. I didn't gift these things to her. I let her do it while I didn't do anything, I let her take responsibility I should have owned up to. I don't mean to imply that these were good things.)

I have an addiction to video games. They consume me.

I got rid of my PS4. Since I did, I've been working out every day, doing things around the house, going out more with friends and co-workers. It was the best decision I've ever made, whether or not the marriage is saved.

I would play my ps4 while she worked.

And then I wouldn't even show my gratitude another way.

I've very introverted. It's hard for me to be vulnerable. When I try, I come off as fake because I hold back my emotion. When I show my emotion I go to 100. Not an excuse, just a challenge I accept and have to overcome and know that it has impacted my marriage negatively.

The reasons for the divorce are plain. And I understand her lack of trust.


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## bunnahabhain

wilson said:


> Since she wants the divorce, she is the one who gets to move out. DO NOT MOVE OUT! Don't be a doormat and let her call all the shots. If she says you should move out, say "I don't want a divorce. I want to work on the marriage and we need to be together to do that. If you want out, you can leave."
> 
> There are some red flags here that warrant looking into, but it also may not matter. It is very hard to rebuild a marriage if she has gotten to the point of wanting a divorce. Often the issues that led up to this point will return over and over in the future. Even if you fix things in the short term, the relationship forward will likely be rocky. But it's probably worth sitting down with her and asking what it would take for her to change her mind. Go to a few sessions of marriage counseling and see what issues come up. If she's totally against working on things, it's probably not worth trying to hard to change her mind.


That's fair enough. I don't plan on moving out 'til the house is sold.

And yea, I feel you on "if she doesn't want to, it's not worth it to try hard." Been trying to get her to go to marriage counseling, but I get the feeling she's appeasing me vs. really wanting to do it, so I get that feeling and it makes me just want to say, "if you don't want to, let's not."

We do still hug every day. It's the only form of physical intimacy we have since she asked for divorce.


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## bunnahabhain

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Phone defensiveness is a classic red flag. So is using it in the bathroom, keeping it under the pillow, etc.
> 
> So is blaming you for the breakdown of the marriage.
> 
> She might be having an affair, she might not. If she is having an affair she is probably not going to admit it to you outright. Just divorce you now and saying the marriage broke done then introduce the new beau when the coast is clear, claim the relationship started after you both separated.
> 
> Assuming you want to know what is really going on you need to play dumb and investigate extremely quietly but vigorously.
> 
> In my experience divorce demands 'out of the blue' usually imply some one else is involved.


That's fair enough, and others agree.

She's usually very honest with me. At the same time, she wouldn't want to hurt me and be honest that there's someone else.

She doesn't really take a lot of time away, that's one thing that makes me "hopeful." So far, she's pretty much always been home at the usual hour. Last night she was out 'til 9 but she told me she was going to a murder mystery thing with a gay friend that I know and used to live with us, I know he's gay and he's been a friend of her mother's for years and is older. Could have been with someone else for all I truly know, but she's usually been honest with me and she canceled the murder mystery on Saturday to do it yesterday and the story has always been consistent.

I guess it's not really worth going over it in a loop. It's just that the signals are....very mixed and sometimes hardline and sometimes ambiguous.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

She knew you when she married you, it's not like your personality was new to her.

She may be playing you, her "no emotional support" is one of the generic go to non reason reasons a W or gf in a ltr use when they have their own reasons they want to split.

It does sound like there's something else on her mind.

Best,


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## notmyjamie

Mr.Married said:


> Look man, I hate to breat the bad news but there is a very common saying around these parts ....
> 
> When a woman is done.....she is done.


That is very, very true. I've ended 2 serious relationships and it was not until I simply could NOT stay any longer. Once I made the decision that I was done, I was done. 



personofinterest said:


> It is highly possible for a woman to get fed up and leave with ZERO affair.


Yes, it's extremely possible. Speaking for myself, when dealing with a bad relationship, the very last thing on earth I am thinking about is a new man. Dealing with the one I have is too much work, why add in another? Not everyone is a cheater.



bunnahabhain said:


> Regarding the emotional abuse, yes I did belittle her. I have called her stupid. I am a reader and a very intellectual person and I get frustrated easily when people "aren't at my level," whatever that means. I've been working on my arrogance there.
> 
> I also let her iron my clothes, wash them, clean the house (we did get someone to come every two weeks), walk the dog, clean the windows, tile the floor (I helped break up the old tile and clear the way, but once the tiling started she did most of the work), etc.
> 
> I have an addiction to video games. They consume me.
> 
> I got rid of my PS4. Since I did, I've been working out every day, doing things around the house, going out more with friends and co-workers. It was the best decision I've ever made, whether or not the marriage is saved.


Having been in a relationship where I was told how stupid I was and belittled constantly and my needs were always secondary I can tell you that it is not easy at all to live with that every day. It chips away at your sense of self worth. If you married this woman she must have had some good qualities beyond just doing your laundry and household chores. But over time she lost sight of that I'm sure and only felt worthless. I'm glad you are aware of it now and can hopefully take steps not to do it in the future. Not sure if it will save your marriage but it might help you with your next relationship.

I commend you for getting rid of the gaming system!!!!! Not easy for a gamer to do I'm sure.



Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> She knew you when she married you, it's not like your personality was new to her.
> 
> She may be playing you, her "no emotional support" is one of the generic go to non reason reasons a W or gf in a ltr use when they have their own reasons they want to split.
> 
> Best,


Most people are on their best behavior in the beginning of a relationship. It's possible the belittling and disrespectful behavior didn't start until after the marriage or started so slowly she didn't really notice it until after they'd been married for a while. It often happens this way. Only OP and the wife know for sure. 

As someone who has left this type of relationship I will tell you that it doesn't sound like she's cheating to me as much as it sounds like self preservation. She's realized that she has one life to live and she doesn't want to spend it being taken advantage of and being called stupid. That's no way to live. 

I think it's great that you are finally stepping up and helping out but it might be a little to late. I hope not for your sake if you really are committed to changing and fixing things in your marriage. I wish you the best.


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## personofinterest

bunnahabhain said:


> I will try to raise my awareness and see if I can discover truth there.
> 
> Regarding the emotional abuse, yes I did belittle her. I have called her stupid. I am a reader and a very intellectual person and I get frustrated easily when people "aren't at my level," whatever that means. I've been working on my arrogance there.
> 
> I also let her iron my clothes, wash them, clean the house (we did get someone to come every two weeks), walk the dog, clean the windows, tile the floor (I helped break up the old tile and clear the way, but once the tiling started she did most of the work), etc.
> 
> I have an addiction to video games. They consume me.
> 
> I got rid of my PS4. Since I did, I've been working out every day, doing things around the house, going out more with friends and co-workers. It was the best decision I've ever made, whether or not the marriage is saved.
> 
> I would play my ps4 while she worked.
> 
> And then I wouldn't even show my gratitude another way.
> 
> I've very introverted. It's hard for me to be vulnerable. When I try, I come off as fake because I hold back my emotion. When I show my emotion I go to 100. Not an excuse, just a challenge I accept and have to overcome and know that it has impacted my marriage negatively.
> 
> The reasons for the divorce are plain. And I understand her lack of trust.


Okay, gotcha. Yes, some of these behaviors were bad, but it sounds like you are already working on cleaning up "your side of the street." Have you specifically apologized for these behaviors? If so, all you can do is be as loving as possible and keep up the changes.

After reading a few more of your posts, I think snooping is still wise. The whole guarding the phone thing is suspicious. I really think you need to be able to at least 99% rule out someone else in the picture. But don't ASK her - if she isn't cheating it'll exacerbate the issues, and if she IS, she will just lie anyway.


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## BluesPower

bunnahabhain said:


> Unfortunately, with things like Snapchat, it's hard for me to get a gauge on whether there's someone else.
> 
> The day before she asked for divorce I finally confronted her about the new password on her phone and her defensiveness when I wanted to use it to browse the internet (because I didn't have mine on me or w/e). We had always known each other's passwords.
> 
> She told me the next day that she had passworded it because she was having conversations with friends and family about divorce and she didn't want me to see.
> 
> She brought it up again earlier this week because I had passworded my iPad and phone, and she reiterated that and said that she did after she thought I had read one of her snap chats. She had gotten one and it wasn't there.
> 
> I don't read her snap chats or messages or anything. Never have (doesn't mean I haven't manifested my jealousy in other ways, I definitely have). I have an OCD and habit of closing all active windows on a phone, so I probably closed her snap chat out of that OCD.
> 
> Edit: I also straight out asked her if there's someone else. She said no.


OK, so let's say that you are the typical clueless dumb ass that a lot of men are. Let's just say for the sake of conversation. 

Even if you are all those things above and more are true, you don't deserve her cheating on you. She could have divorced, like she is doing, she could have talked to you, or a hundred other things. 

What you did not deserve was her cheating on you, and yes she is cheating on you. And it was probably an exit affair, and regardless she is done. 

For you, you need to figure out all your mistakes, read all the self help books, and become a better person. 

What you don't need, esp since you don't have kids is try to win her back, worst mistake you could ever make.

Grow up, become a better person and not so stupid and meet someone else. 

This completely sounds like an exit affair, and since it probably is that, you need to let it go and move on...


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## bunnahabhain

notmyjamie said:


> Having been in a relationship where I was told how stupid I was and belittled constantly and my needs were always secondary I can tell you that it is not easy at all to live with that every day. It chips away at your sense of self worth. If you married this woman she must have had some good qualities beyond just doing your laundry and household chores. But over time she lost sight of that I'm sure and only felt worthless. I'm glad you are aware of it now and can hopefully take steps not to do it in the future. Not sure if it will save your marriage but it might help you with your next relationship.
> 
> I commend you for getting rid of the gaming system!!!!! Not easy for a gamer to do I'm sure.



She has amazing qualities. She's a talented graphic designer, beautiful, caring, happy, weird.

Those qualities that pertained to what she did for me were more so responsibilities I had surrendered and let her take of.

You are absolutely right and I'm sorry you had to experience that. And, regardless of other things that may be going on, even if there is another guy, I think the pain of that experience makes what she's doing right. Wouldn't any of us guys have left our wives if they did the same thing?

Maybe this is the wrong question to ask, and if I may ask you, what to you would prove commitment? Like others have said, reversion is common. That is her main complaint, that I will revert. What would tell you that, at the very least, the probability of reversion is less?


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## bunnahabhain

BluesPower said:


> What you did not deserve was her cheating on you, and yes she is cheating on you. And it was probably an exit affair, and regardless she is done.
> 
> For you, you need to figure out all your mistakes, read all the self help books, and become a better person.
> 
> What you don't need, esp since you don't have kids is try to win her back, worst mistake you could ever make.
> 
> Grow up, become a better person and not so stupid and meet someone else.
> 
> This completely sounds like an exit affair, and since it probably is that, you need to let it go and move on...


You're definitely right. Nobody deserves to be cheated on.

Out of curiosity, do you think it's a bad idea to try to win her back even if she has not cheated on me?


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## bunnahabhain

How common is it for women who are cheating to sleep with their husbands in a very passionate way up to the day she asked for a divorce? Serious question.


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## personofinterest

bunnahabhain said:


> How common is it for women who are cheating to sleep with their husbands in a very passionate way up to the day she asked for a divorce? Serious question.


I think it depends on the cheater. Some will keep the sex up to avoid suspicion. Some will ramp it up out of guilt. Some will NOT because they want to be loyal to the affair partner (blech). Some will so completely compartmentalize that they don't even think about not having sex with their spouse.

If she IS cheating, it is probably with someone who showed her appreciation in those spots where she felt neglected. NOTE: This does NOT excuse anything. A person who feels hurt by their spouse CAN avoid temptation if they have the character. But, if she is cheating, that is probably how she justifies it in her mind.

To answer another of your questions, if she is NOT cheating and you have behaved in the past as you say you have, then absolutely try to win her back. You love her, you recognize your shortcomings, you are fixing them. It could help make your marriage even better.

If she IS cheating, no amount of being awesome will really help while she is all caught up in an affair. That is why I say keep being awesome AND snoop.


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## Chaparral

Go through house with a fine tooth comb. Look for new underwear you have never seen her wear. Gifts you didn’t buy. A burner phone etc. If she doesn’t go out much or get home late or leave early it could be a workplace affair. 

Has she responded to you new actions and PS4 dump?

If you want to know how she really feels you can put a Sony voice activated recorder in her car securely velcroed under the seat. Cheaters like to talk in the car as a safe zone. They will also talk to friends about what is going on and Google how to track your router. You may also want to gps her car.


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## notmyjamie

bunnahabhain said:


> She has amazing qualities. She's a talented graphic designer, beautiful, caring, happy, weird.
> 
> Those qualities that pertained to what she did for me were more so responsibilities I had surrendered and let her take of.
> 
> You are absolutely right and I'm sorry you had to experience that. And, regardless of other things that may be going on, even if there is another guy, I think the pain of that experience makes what she's doing right. Wouldn't any of us guys have left our wives if they did the same thing?
> 
> Maybe this is the wrong question to ask, and if I may ask you, what to you would prove commitment? Like others have said, reversion is common. That is her main complaint, that I will revert. What would tell you that, at the very least, the probability of reversion is less?



I guess I'd need to know if this is the first time she's brought this to your attention and have you tried to change before? I brought it up to my ex constantly. He also used to swear at me and call me all manner of nasty things when he was angry at me. I remember saying "One day, you will say "**** you" to me or call me a "****" and it will be the last time" and one day, it was. But whenever I'd say it, he would try for a very short amount of time...a week or so and then he'd be right back at it. Same with the belittling and taking me for granted.

So, if this is the first time she's addressed it, I'd say sit down and ask her what she needs from you to show commitment, and then do that!!! It might help if you got into some individual counseling to help you learn other ways of dealing with your feelings than to belittle your partner. That would show a true commitment to wanting to change. Ironically, my ex now treats me with the utmost respect and we are actually friends. It took years of counseling on his part and years of healing time but we have reconnected and have a nice friendship now. I got a sincere apology for his treatment of me and that made all the difference for me allowing us to be friends. You should also tell her the things you love and respect about her, focusing on what you respect. She doesn't feel respected and that's what she needs.

If this is the 100th time, I don't think you can to be honest. I think that ship will have sailed. But, you should still think about counseling to help in your next relationship.


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## BluesPower

bunnahabhain said:


> You're definitely right. Nobody deserves to be cheated on.
> 
> Out of curiosity, do you think it's a bad idea to try to win her back even if she has not cheated on me?


Yes god yes... You do not have kids. Kick her to the curb. 

Please listen, even if you are so completely clueless that you did everything wrong, you don't deserve this. 

What you need to do is wake up, learn about women, IN GENERAL, and learn how to be a real, grown up man, and all that that REALLY entails, and start over. 

In general, if you have a women that is cheating, you need to let her go. Fix your issues, and be better next time. 

If you learn how not to be a dumbass and learn how to be a good partner, and dude I mean, really start to understand this stuff. Read all the books so you can understand some of this stuff. 

But as far as staying with your wife, forget about it. Chances are she is done whether she goes with other man (OM) or not. 

If you made mistakes, well learn from them, and do better next time. 

But stay with her or try to win her back, now way. She has shown her true colors, and those colors, you do not need in your life, just move on...


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## StillSearching

Do not play the Pick Me Game!
Win her back....LOL
Win who back? You don't even know who she is, or was, or will be.
She is a ghost. 
You are in love with an ideal.


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## bunnahabhain

notmyjamie said:


> I guess I'd need to know if this is the first time she's brought this to your attention and have you tried to change before? I brought it up to my ex constantly. He also used to swear at me and call me all manner of nasty things when he was angry at me. I remember saying "One day, you will say "**** you" to me or call me a "****" and it will be the last time" and one day, it was. But whenever I'd say it, he would try for a very short amount of time...a week or so and then he'd be right back at it. Same with the belittling and taking me for granted.
> 
> So, if this is the first time she's addressed it, I'd say sit down and ask her what she needs from you to show commitment, and then do that!!! It might help if you got into some individual counseling to help you learn other ways of dealing with your feelings than to belittle your partner. That would show a true commitment to wanting to change. Ironically, my ex now treats me with the utmost respect and we are actually friends. It took years of counseling on his part and years of healing time but we have reconnected and have a nice friendship now. I got a sincere apology for his treatment of me and that made all the difference for me allowing us to be friends. You should also tell her the things you love and respect about her, focusing on what you respect. She doesn't feel respected and that's what she needs.
> 
> If this is the 100th time, I don't think you can to be honest. I think that ship will have sailed. But, you should still think about counseling to help in your next relationship.


Fair enough and honest, thank you.

And, yes, she has brought it up before.

I've been writing things like 10 Things I Took For Granted and Everything You Love and Everything We Have in Common. She went out last night so I bought flowers and wrote a letter hoping she had a good time and that she deserved it.

And I am seeing a therapist now to not repeat my mistakes, whether with this wife or a future woman in my life.


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## bunnahabhain

StillSearching said:


> Do not play the Pick Me Game!
> Win her back....LOL
> Win who back? You don't even know who she is, or was, or will be.
> She is a ghost.
> You are in love with an ideal.


What do you mean?


----------



## anchorwatch

bunnahabhain said:


> Fair enough and honest, thank you.
> 
> And, yes, she has brought it up before.
> 
> I've been writing things like 10 Things I Took For Granted and Everything You Love and Everything We Have in Common. She went out last night so I bought flowers and wrote a letter hoping she had a good time and that she deserved it.
> 
> And *I am seeing a therapist now to not repeat my mistakes, whether with this wife or a future woman in my life*.


That's the best thing for you have said. 

Never succumb to your addictions over your self or your relationships.

One step to becoming a whole integrated adult man.

Best


----------



## wilson

You guys have been together for about 10 years I'm guessing?

It's a positive sign you are so honest about your flaws. Hopefully you will be able to grow from this. But reading those flaws, I'm not too surprised she wants to end it. That's just not how a life-partner should act. I think you realize it now. Maybe it was necessary for you to go through this in order to have an epiphany to understand what has to change in the future. 

When you think of her future, do you think being with you will bring her happiness? Are you the right partner for her? Or do you want to fix things because you want her to be in your life? Do you love her enough to put her happiness first, even if that means you get divorced?


----------



## notmyjamie

bunnahabhain said:


> Fair enough and honest, thank you.
> 
> And, yes, she has brought it up before.
> 
> I've been writing things like 10 Things I Took For Granted and Everything You Love and Everything We Have in Common. She went out last night so I bought flowers and wrote a letter hoping she had a good time and that she deserved it.
> 
> And I am seeing a therapist now to not repeat my mistakes, whether with this wife or a future woman in my life.


I'm glad to hear that you're seeing a therapist. I think that's a definite step in the right direction. I'd make sure she is aware, ask if there is anything else you can do, and then give her some space to work things out. Too much chasing might make her run in the opposite direction.

Good luck!


----------



## bunnahabhain

wilson said:


> You guys have been together for about 10 years I'm guessing?
> 
> It's a positive sign you are so honest about your flaws. Hopefully you will be able to grow from this. But reading those flaws, I'm not too surprised she wants to end it. That's just not how a life-partner should act. I think you realize it now. Maybe it was necessary for you to go through this in order to have an epiphany to understand what has to change in the future.
> 
> When you think of her future, do you think being with you will bring her happiness? Are you the right partner for her? Or do you want to fix things because you want her to be in your life? Do you love her enough to put her happiness first, even if that means you get divorced?


I agree, that's not how a life partner should act.

And, cheating or not, if she wants to see what it's like to do things alone I feel it means that she's already felt like she's done things alone, except she has a chance to get rid of the anchor.

I do know she's been happy with me. There was never a loss in intimacy. Not until the day of the request. I think I do bring a lot to the table despite how ****ty I can be in other ways. I'm faithful, I'm financially stable, I share the same home and family goals, I don't mind hanging out with her family (I missed a vacation with her family once that she said hurt her a lot), I support her in her work, and I have -- along with all the ****ty things I've said -- always said nice things.

None of that makes up for being made to feel useless and to have your life basically devalued.

When I was in college I almost dropped out the first semester I met her. I got put on academic probation. I took 2 semesters worth of classes, 27 units, the next semester and got a 3.9 GPA. I excel in my career. She has brought those things out in me. "Ideal picture" or not, she has been a positive force for good in my life and I have committed to improvement in the past.

So, yes, I do feel that she can be happy with me again.

I also recognize that that may be a very self-centered answer.

And I think your last question is important and you're right. If she's happier without me, I need to accept that if I truly do love her.

My main concern is that she will not be happier without me, which again might be vain. I say that not because I think I'm so great, rather because I do genuinely like this better person that I have been trying to become and I feel that, like in the past when I've gotten wake up calls like this one, I've had a good success record.

All this being said, don't get me wrong, I accept that I'm going to have to accept a higher probability of just moving on and making sure I get things right with the next person.


----------



## notmyjamie

BluesPower said:


> Yes god yes... You do not have kids. Kick her to the curb.
> 
> Please listen, even if you are so completely clueless that you did everything wrong, you don't deserve this.
> 
> What you need to do is wake up, learn about women, IN GENERAL, and learn how to be a real, grown up man, and all that that REALLY entails, and start over.
> 
> In general, if you have a women that is cheating, you need to let her go. Fix your issues, and be better next time.
> 
> If you learn how not to be a dumbass and learn how to be a good partner, and dude I mean, really start to understand this stuff. Read all the books so you can understand some of this stuff.
> 
> But as far as staying with your wife, forget about it. Chances are she is done whether she goes with other man (OM) or not.
> 
> If you made mistakes, well learn from them, and do better next time.
> 
> But stay with her or try to win her back, now way. She has shown her true colors, and those colors, you do not need in your life, just move on...


He asked if he should keep trying if it turns out she's *not* cheating. You feel this way even if she is not cheating? He has admitted to treating her very poorly. Why such animosity towards her for wanting to get out of a relationship she is not respected in or treated well? Wouldn't you tell a sister or a friend to leave a relationship like that?

I get the animosity if she's cheating but I don't understand it if she's just trying to get out of a bad situation. Which he admits she's given him prior chances to fix. The poor women is getting crucified and there is no proof she's done anything wrong. Now if he gets real proof of cheating then all bets are off. You should always end things before you move on, no excuses. But not wanting him to see that she was looking up divorce information seems like a very reasonable explanation for not wanting him to see her phone. Maybe I'm just naive?


----------



## Marc878

Have you gone online and checked your phone bill?

It's always a good idea if you haven't.


----------



## bunnahabhain

re: cheating

Here's why I don't think she's cheating.

There are red flags. She passworded her phone. She asked for divorce. 

We spent almost the entire weekend together in the house. She did not get up to take a call away from me. She does text a lot, she has a very, very, very beautiful relationship with her mother, and she has friends. But she doesn't giggle, she's not constantly on it, etc.

Before the divorce, even the day before, we are constantly chatting online at work. Texting each other. We respond a minute after we get a text. 

I do know her and if she was in love with someone else she wouldn't restrain it like this.

I don't think she'd be sleeping in the same bed as me either.

And if she were cheating and still having sex with me, then I don't think that would help explain why she stopped having sex with me when she asked for divorce. I think what explains that is that if she has sex with me then it will be very difficult for her emotionally to move on and I think that's exactly what she wants to do.

Last night...I tried to be calm about it, but I got emotional...she accepted trying baby steps toward reconciliation, she didn't know what the first step would be. I am suggesting therapy, while we file the papers and continue with the divorce plan.

We are going over the papers together on Saturday. I asked her if she wanted to take a walk with me beforehand, she said yes.

Last weekend I asked for her to go on a date with me to our favorite Greek restaurant. She said yes.

We put off doing the divorce papers together by a week. If I had someone else lined up I'd want to end my marriage NOW, not push it back.

It has not lessened her resolve to get divorced.

And I understand why.

Just because it feels good to be good with me in the moment doesn't mean it truly feels good. Just like a drug.

Anyways, I don't think she's cheating. I think she's protecting herself by distancing herself emotionally.

Of course, I may be wrong.

I am considering the whole surveillance thing. Then again, I would be pissed the **** off if someone did that to me. I think I should be prepared to move on and be prepared for the worst news if it's true, and I will think about VAR, but then again who cares? It's not going to make the divorce process faster. It takes 6 months in California regardless.

Here's my perspective: the things I need to do to win her back are things I need to do for myself anyway. Whatever her decision, if I do the right things to win her back, even if I don't win her back, I still win (for myself) in the end.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Mr.Married said:


> When a woman is done.....she is done.


I've said this my whole adult life - and lived it several times.

Once a woman is done, she's done. I don't speak for all women, but I have YET to see one completely change her mind once she's decided to move on.


----------



## BluesPower

notmyjamie said:


> He asked if he should keep trying if it turns out she's *not* cheating. You feel this way even if she is not cheating? He has admitted to treating her very poorly. Why such animosity towards her for wanting to get out of a relationship she is not respected in or treated well? Wouldn't you tell a sister or a friend to leave a relationship like that?
> 
> I get the animosity if she's cheating but I don't understand it if she's just trying to get out of a bad situation. Which he admits she's given him prior chances to fix. The poor women is getting crucified and there is no proof she's done anything wrong. Now if he gets real proof of cheating then all bets are off. You should always end things before you move on, no excuses. But not wanting him to see that she was looking up divorce information seems like a very reasonable explanation for not wanting him to see her phone. Maybe I'm just naive?


Just trust me on this one... She is cheating...


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

bunnahabhain said:


> Regarding the emotional abuse, yes I did belittle her. I have called her stupid. I am a reader and a very intellectual person and I get frustrated easily when people "aren't at my level," whatever that means. I've been working on my arrogance there.


Too much, too little, too late.

The many years of your arrogance and the belittling she's had to put up with from you has done its damage. Doing a sudden 180 NOW and becoming Mr. Congeniality - just because she wants out - doesn't make the prior abuse suddenly ok. Sorry, but it doesn't.



> I also let her iron my clothes, wash them, clean the house (we did get someone to come every two weeks), walk the dog, clean the windows, tile the floor (I helped break up the old tile and clear the way, but once the tiling started she did most of the work), etc.


Golly, she must have felt so _honored_ that you let her do that.



> I have an addiction to video games. They consume me.


This picture is becoming clearer and clearer to me, the more I read.



> I would play my ps4 while she worked.


So, along with your arrogance about being so *intellectually superior* to her, on top of that, you sat on your ass letting her be the work mule while you used that 'superior intellect' you brag so much about to play mindless video games like a dumb-ass teenager. I hope she was 'smart' enough to see how ignorant that actually made YOU look.

I have to be honest. I'm sorry, but I don't blame your wife one bit for leaving. Not one bit.

I will say if she IS screwing around then you don't deserve that and that was the wrong way for her to go about leaving. 

Your problem is that you basically did nothing to improve things year after year and watched your marriage slowly go to **** while you ignored all the times she probably tried to *tell* you how unhappy she was. I can't believe how many men say that their wives asked for a divorce*"out of the blue!"*when it wasn't out of the blue. They just weren't listening or paying attention when their wives tried to tell them how unhappy they were and I'm willing to bet your wife has gotten to this point because talking about it for years got her nowhere. Sadly, you think that all these 11th hour Hail Mary passes you're throwing - getting rid of your gaming unit and trying not to be arrogant and doing more of your SHARE around the house and going to the gym - will wipe away all the years of your abuse and neglect, and it doesn't.

Right now, you're just on your best behavior because you stand to LOSE something. Before when there were no consequences for your behavior, you didn't care. Now that you're about to lose your wife, you suddenly care and your'e hoping like hell to change her mind by turning into Super Husband. I've seen this done SO many times before, but most men can't maintain this fake persona for more than a few months before they slip right back into being the real person they actually are.

I hope you beat the odds but if I were a betting woman, I wouldn't put money on it.


----------



## bunnahabhain

I don't think the divorce came out of the blue.

And that list of things, I apologize if I communicated it the wrong way. I didn't mean those were things I let her do for me for her good. Those are responsibilities I surrendered and I should have manned up and gotten my **** together a long time ago.

And you're right that there's no reason to blame her.

I hope I beat the odds, as well.

There's really no other choice if I want to be a healthier partner.


----------



## wilson

bunnahabhain said:


> How common is it for women who are cheating to sleep with their husbands in a very passionate way up to the day she asked for a divorce? Serious question.


We've had so many stories of crazy cheaters that have basically basically done this. Sometimes cheating makes them so turned on that they go wild for their previously-ignored spouse. Their spouse thinks their sexless marriage is finally fixed only to find out they were being cheated on during that time. We've had stories here from people who eventually found out that on days when they had wild and passionate sex, their spouse had cheated on them earlier in the day at a motel. Really, any level of deception and delusion is possible with cheaters. It's not certain that's going on here, but having passionate sex with you doesn't necessarily mean she's not cheating.


----------



## StarFires

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> She knew you when she married you, it's not like your personality was new to her.
> 
> She may be playing you, her "no emotional support" is one of the generic go to non reason reasons a W or gf in a ltr use when they have their own reasons they want to split.
> 
> It does sound like there's something else on her mind.
> 
> Best,


That is not so. You stated......



bunnahabhain said:


> I'm not a physically violent or abusive person. I accept that I was emotionally abusive in not being there for her, letting her take on most of the responsibilities and never even making my gratitude known, never validating her feelings vs. giving my opinion on everything. She says that we're getting older (she's 28 and I'm 31), she's changing and wants to try things out on her own, and that she can't trust me and wait any longer.


and......



bunnahabhain said:


> Regarding the emotional abuse, yes I did belittle her. I have called her stupid. I am a reader and a very intellectual person and I get frustrated easily when people "aren't at my level," whatever that means. I've been working on my arrogance there.
> 
> I also let her iron my clothes, wash them, clean the house (we did get someone to come every two weeks), walk the dog, clean the windows, tile the floor (I helped break up the old tile and clear the way, but once the tiling started she did most of the work), etc.
> 
> I have an addiction to video games. They consume me.
> 
> I got rid of my PS4. Since I did, I've been working out every day, doing things around the house, going out more with friends and co-workers. It was the best decision I've ever made, whether or not the marriage is saved.
> 
> I would play my ps4 while she worked.


All of which (plus what you probably haven't told us) is more than enough legitimate cause for her to be completely done with you. You verbally abused her, made her feel like nothing, showed her that she was nothing to you, ignored her (until you wanted sex maybe?), and checked out of the marriage in lieu of your video games. I don't know why that wasn't enough for someone to tell you that what she said is, in other words, a lame excuse for wanting out of the marriage so she must be cheating. I'm inclined to think you belittling her, dismissing her, and minimizing her concerns in exactly that same manner as he did are the reasons she wants out. They are legitimate reasons, and they are reasons enough, especially when you consider she didn't have to give you any reason at all.

So with that type of comment being a common way of thinking and your behavior being so common, tell me why you did it, please. This happens so incredibly often that I have spent so many years wondering why guys do this to their wives. Can you answer that? Almost invariably, guys are clueless that their wife was so unhappy and caught by surprise when she says she wants out. But how did you think your behaviors and verbal abuse were okay to treat her that way? Guys are remorseful just like you when she becomes the fed up walk-away-wife and start wanting to change and promising to do better and all that jazz. But why didn't you do that in the first place? Why did your wife - and having a wife - mean so little to you that you just couldn't prevent yourself from mistreating her? Was that the definition of wife to you that you thought you had someone to brutalize and that piece of paper somehow gave you license? Why was this your definition of husband?

One reason I'm asking is that I really want to know, but another reason I'm curious is that the things you said and did to your wife are very unlikely things you did or said to friends and co-workers. And that's what makes it all so perplexing. The greater likelihood is you treated people who mean little or nothing to you better than you treated the woman you married and claimed to love. At any rate, I realize I'm asking a lot, so don't answer if you don't feel inclined, but I do suggest you consider those responses even if for your own edification and maybe you can prevent your next divorce. What a lucky woman that one will be to catch a man who learned how to be a husband at his first wife's expense.



bunnahabhain said:


> And, regardless of other things that may be going on, even if there is another guy, I think the pain of that experience makes what she's doing right. Wouldn't any of us guys have left our wives if they did the same thing?


Yes, she's right to divorce you. And, frankly, I wouldn't blame her if she is cheating. I know no one here agrees with me, but I don't think it's terrible that an abused woman cheats on her abuser. She probably needed it. After you have tried to destroy her soul, she needs to redeem it and retrieve her self worth from your unreliable clutches, and she needs to know that she's worthwhile, desirable, intelligent despite being told otherwise, and worthy of positive attention and kindness. 



bunnahabhain said:


> You're definitely right. Nobody deserves to be cheated on.


Yes, that's the common mentality, and I can't disagree. But no one deserves to be mistreated either. So there's that.



bunnahabhain said:


> Maybe this is the wrong question to ask, and if I may ask you, what to you would prove commitment? Like others have said, reversion is common. That is her main complaint, that I will revert. What would tell you that, at the very least, the probability of reversion is less?


Fortunately, and thankfully, there is a lot of information on the internet about the way you have treated your wife. It's so common, like I said above, that women need only google to learn about how these situations turn out. And, as I also mentioned about guys being clueless to find out their wife is ready to walk away, she has also learned about the rate of recidivism, which is also very, very common. You came here wondering if you can save your marriage and what to do, but you're hardly the first. The abusive partner always starts scrambling to change the mind of their offended. They suddenly start proclaiming love and devotion, and they make all kinds of promises to change their ways but once forgiven, it lasts about 2-3 weeks most often, sometimes longer but they still revert back to their old abusive ways. To give you an example, a National Domestic Violence statistic is that it takes a woman 7 times to finally leave for good. That means she believed his promise to change and went back 6 times before finally accepting he never will change as he keeps promising, so she leaves for the 7th and final time.

You gave her plenty reason to want out and she has no reason to trust you. She has most likely wracked her brain wondering why you treated her like this in the first place and feels that, for you to treat her that way, you obviously think very little of her until she finally reached the conclusion that what you think of her and why you do it don't matter nearly so much as the fact that she doesn't like it being treated like this. And disliking it and not appreciating it are all that really do matter. Your wife reached her limit. Good for her. That makes her a survivor.



bunnahabhain said:


> How common is it for women who are cheating to sleep with their husbands in a very passionate way up to the day she asked for a divorce? Serious question.


Sorry, but I kinda have to ignore the question because I'm inclined to think it's moot. My guess is there was something you did or said that served as the final straw for her. Maybe it wasn't what you did or said but the way you did it or said it that's more than likely par for the course in your arsenal of put-downs or condescension or ignoring her concerns or whatever it might have been. So, something happened between the last time you guys made love and Friday when she told you she wants a divorce. Wrack your brain like she's been wracking hers all this time. 

The thing is, when a woman is done, she's done, and that last straw, whatever it was, made her done. The things you told us you have done and said can make a woman's skin crawl at the thought of you touching her. Just the thought of sex with you or your attempt to have sex with her can be so repulsive that she'd rather have a thousand leeches crawling all over her than your hands. I'm not saying your wife is this disgusted with you. I'm saying that's the way a man can make a woman feel when doing and saying the things that you have. Believe me, it happens.

But, after all this, I don't suggest you give up. As I said, it statistically takes a woman leaving many times before she does it for good. Very often a woman will change her mind and decide to give it another try. This is mostly when kids are involved because she wants to keep her family together and doesn't want her children to be basically fatherless. Nevertheless, the stats I quoted above are based on averages, so your wife might get out on her own and realize she misses you (minus the abuse), and decide to give you a chance to live up to your promises. It's on you after that.


----------



## Chaparral

Download the book MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER from amazon. It is a book about attraction not a sex manual. 

Also get the books HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS and the FIVE LOVE LANGUAGES . 

Obviously you are very intelligent. However, ineligence does not come any where near equal being smart. Surely by now you have figured out you are also very ignorant. Addicted to gaming, really? If there is a bigger waste of time I cannot imagine it except for other addictions.

When you think of a “manly” man do you think of some guy playing games? I don’t mean to be harsh but you didn’t get this way over night. Get the books, educate yourself in addition to getting counseling. If you can get her to do the five love languages questions. If she balls ask her to do it for you as a friend. Tell her you obviously need to learn for whatever your future leads to.

How often does she go out? Does she go out with the girls to clubs? Where else?

One more thing, you can’t imagine how excruciatingly boring it is to be around someone on a game .

Wishing you all the luck in the world.


----------



## StarFires

@She'sStillGotIt's signature line:

_*"Once you start seeing your worth, you'll find it harder to stay around people who don't."*_

Gosh darn, I love that! And so apropos.


----------



## bunnahabhain

StarFries,

I think your analysis right.

Your first quote is not me. I don't think she's making excuses. I think she's in the right.

My emotional abuse wasn't constant. I praised her work, I praised the intelligence she showed in it. It was during arguments that I shut down, which were not common.

I wasn't calling her stupid every day. I can count the number of times I've said on my two hands.

That's two hands too many. I agree.

And it wasn't just me belittling her. It was me being in moods and being lost in my own world. Me suffering from anxiety but doing nothing to solve it despite her pushing me to.

And the emotional abuse went both ways. I'm just not talking about hers because there's nothing I can do about that, I can only control myself and I can only make myself better.

So, look, I don't intend to defend myself or excuse myself. But just like I don't think it's right for some of the guys on here to be quick to judge my wife, I don't think it's totally fair for you to be quick to judge me, especially when citing things I haven't said (so you would have no idea about, one way or the other).

If you would like to learn more about the relationship and me, and judge on facts, then please ask me


----------



## bunnahabhain

Chaparral said:


> Obviously you are very intelligent. However, ineligence does not come any where near equal being smart. Surely by now you have figured out you are also very ignorant. Addicted to gaming, really? If there is a bigger waste of time I cannot imagine it except for other addictions.
> 
> When you think of a “manly” man do you think of some guy playing games? I don’t mean to be harsh but you didn’t get this way over night. Get the books, educate yourself in addition to getting counseling. If you can get her to do the five love languages questions. If she balls ask her to do it for you as a friend. Tell her you obviously need to learn for whatever your future leads to.
> 
> How often does she go out? Does she go out with the girls to clubs? Where else?
> 
> One more thing, you can’t imagine how excruciatingly boring it is to be around someone on a game .
> 
> Wishing you all the luck in the world.


The manly man thing and video games doesn't resonate with me because this isn't the 1970s.

Besides, I am a leader at work. I manage a department, I earned that management informally by earning the loyalty of the people around me. I am capable of not being a scumbag.

There are men who play video games and are able to have healthy relationships with their wives. They know when to put the controller down.

I am not one of them. I accept that.

For me, it's like going back to heroin.

I learned that too late. I started to make sure to shut off my console the second she got home way before she asked for a divorce. Too little, too late. And it wasn't enough anyways.

I started playing them in the middle of our relationship and that's when things started to go south.

I appreciate your advice and I do get where you're coming from and the point you're making, so maybe in the end we're seeing it the same way. The video games gave me an excuse to give up responsibility in myself and my relationship. A grown-up doesn't give up responsibility.

I don't need to be a manly man. I need to be a grown-up.

And I appreciate everyone who's being honest and telling me how they really feel. This has very much helped to change and improve my beliefs, and I have reiterated to her today that I support her decision to divorce me and will cooperate with her.

Regarding your question, she has gone out once with friends after work to get drinks. Yesterday, she was out all evening pretty much. She told me where she was going. She'll be going out for a work after hours drink today with coworkers.

The whole cheating thing, I'll cross that bridge when I get there.


----------



## bunnahabhain

One of the books I've read recently is _I Hear You_ by Michael Sorensen.

I highly recommend it.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bunnahabhain said:


> That's fair enough. I don't plan on moving out 'til the house is sold.
> 
> And yea, I feel you on "if she doesn't want to, it's not worth it to try hard." Been trying to get her to go to marriage counseling, but I get the feeling she's appeasing me vs. really wanting to do it, so I get that feeling and it makes me just want to say, "if you don't want to, let's not."
> 
> We do still hug every day. It's the only form of physical intimacy we have since she asked for divorce.


Pity hugs are an insulting.


----------



## StarFires

bunnahabhain said:


> So, look, I don't intend to defend myself or excuse myself. But just like I don't think it's right for some of the guys on here to be quick to judge my wife, I don't think it's totally fair for you to be quick to judge me, especially when citing things I haven't said (so you would have no idea about, one way or the other).
> 
> If you would like to learn more about the relationship and me, and judge on facts, then please ask me


err Are you referring to the except when you wanted sex part? That's what I was doing - asking. And I asked because that's how it usually goes. You checked out of the marriage. You guys had sex as you told us. There's no likelihood she initiated every single time. Therefore, I asked if you ignored her unless you wanted sex was the case. No need to get offended. I asked a bunch of questions but you zeroed, in on that one after misinterpreting it. So, I'm still wondering if that was the case and why you treated your wife poorly. Again, I understand if you prefer not to answer, but please let me know so I'm not wondering if you missed it.


----------



## bunnahabhain

No, I stopped initiating because most of my attempts failed.

She initiated most of our sex.

I would call it 65-35, 65 being her.


----------



## bunnahabhain

And just to clarify, I was zeroing on two things.

One, your first quote is not me.

Second, "All of which (plus what you probably haven't told us)..."

What I haven't told you could go any way.


----------



## happyhusband0005

bunnahabhain said:


> You're definitely right. Nobody deserves to be cheated on.
> 
> Out of curiosity, do you think it's a bad idea to try to win her back even if she has not cheated on me?


I think you're going to have a tough time winning her back and I don't think it matters if she cheated on you or not. If I was a woman, and I was married to a guy who sat around playing video games while I did all the house work and this went on for years. I'd be out. If a guy called me stupid because he thought he was so intellectual but then spent all his time playing video games, I'd be out. 

General rule for the future. You do not sit down or do anything until all the house work is done. And I mean that literally if there is cleaning to do you do it, if there is laundry you do it and so on. Now maybe you have an agreed upon division of labor ie I cook she cleans up or I run the laundry and she folds, whatever. But if one person is doing nothing while the others is running around doing chores, the one doing chores is going to resent the other. 

She probably has looked at you and imagined life with kids etc. and realized she was going to have a bummer life. 

I think you are going to have to look at this as a big painful lesson.


----------



## StarFires

bunnahabhain said:


> And just to clarify, I was zeroing on two things.
> 
> One, your first quote is not me.
> 
> Second, "All of which (plus what you probably haven't told us)..."
> 
> What I haven't told you could go any way.


It means there's no way possible you could put your whole married life into a few forum posts. There's plenty you hadn't told us, such as you later divulging that the abuse went both ways. I don't know what that means and you didn't elaborate, but there's no way for us to know every detail. There's always plenty that gets left out as you can see.


----------



## bunnahabhain

happyhusband0005 said:


> I think you're going to have a tough time winning her back and I don't think it matters if she cheated on you or not. If I was a woman, and I was married to a guy who sat around playing video games while I did all the house work and this went on for years. I'd be out. If a guy called me stupid because he thought he was so intellectual but then spent all his time playing video games, I'd be out.
> 
> General rule for the future. You do not sit down or do anything until all the house work is done. And I mean that literally if there is cleaning to do you do it, if there is laundry you do it and so on. Now maybe you have an agreed upon division of labor ie I cook she cleans up or I run the laundry and she folds, whatever. But if one person is doing nothing while the others is running around doing chores, the one doing chores is going to resent the other.
> 
> She probably has looked at you and imagined life with kids etc. and realized she was going to have a bummer life.
> 
> I think you are going to have to look at this as a big painful lesson.


You are right.

And that's a good rule, I appreciate it.


----------



## bunnahabhain

StarFires said:


> It means there's no way possible you could put your whole married life into a few forum posts. There's plenty you hadn't told us, such as you later divulging that the abuse went both ways. I don't know what that means and you didn't elaborate, but there's no way for us to know every detail. There's always plenty that gets left out as you can see.


For what it's worth, I do appreciate your honesty.

I appreciate your aggressiveness and your point of view.

I don't mean to assume your gender, but I think you and notmyjamie have approached this from an area of experience and I appreciate your efforts to help me understand the pain from the point of view of the victim.


----------



## MattMatt

bunnahabhain said:


> I will try to raise my awareness and see if I can discover truth there.
> 
> Regarding the emotional abuse, yes I did belittle her. I have called her stupid. I am a reader and a very intellectual person and I get frustrated easily when people "aren't at my level," whatever that means. I've been working on my arrogance there.
> 
> I also let her iron my clothes, wash them, clean the house (we did get someone to come every two weeks), walk the dog, clean the windows, tile the floor (I helped break up the old tile and clear the way, but once the tiling started she did most of the work), etc.
> 
> I have an addiction to video games. They consume me.
> 
> I got rid of my PS4. Since I did, I've been working out every day, doing things around the house, going out more with friends and co-workers. It was the best decision I've ever made, whether or not the marriage is saved.
> 
> I would play my ps4 while she worked.
> 
> And then I wouldn't even show my gratitude another way.
> 
> I've very introverted. It's hard for me to be vulnerable. When I try, I come off as fake because I hold back my emotion. When I show my emotion I go to 100. Not an excuse, just a challenge I accept and have to overcome and know that it has impacted my marriage negatively.
> 
> The reasons for the divorce are plain. And I understand her lack of trust.


I am sorry to have to tell you this, but you come over as being lazy self-indulging, childish and rude and not quite as intellectual as you like to think. Sorry but that is how you come over.

You should get the divorce because you earned it with every thing you did when you shouldn't have. Or didn't do when you should have.

You broke her, man. 

If you love her, give her the divorce as an act of love for her.


----------



## bunnahabhain

I appreciate your honesty.

I'm still going to fight for it because I believe in my capacity to change.

I will probably fail to win her back. I will still try because I will improve one way or another.


----------



## Diana7

She may think that any changes you make are only because of her threat to divorce you. She may think that things will simply revert back to what they were if she stays.


----------



## sunsetmist

bunnahabhain said:


> No kids, so I suppose that's "fortunate."........................
> 
> She says that we're getting older (she's 28 and I'm 31), she's changing and wants to try things out on her own, and that she can't trust me and wait any longer.....................
> 
> it was my lack of emotional support................


Are your friends starting families? Changing relationships into solid, character-building foundations? 

I'm thinking she may be: 1) tired of waiting for you to grow up, 2) tired of your lack of true connection and emotional intimacy. She not only doesn't see you as a desirable husband (belittling, stone-walling?), but she doubts you'd be a good father. When I saw your ages that was what jumped out at me. Your growth as a man/maturity has been lacking--actually reverting to immature levels. And she can't *trust* that you'd be a father for her kids. 

Have y'all ever discussed this openly and honestly? You need to figure out what she needs to be able to trust you!

Her use of the word TRUST is major. She needs for you to be responsible, dependable, loving, and caring--even when things are rough.


----------



## bunnahabhain

Diana7 said:


> She may think that any changes you make are only because of her threat to divorce you. She may think that things will simply revert back to what they were if she stays.


That's exactly right.

That's what she said. I 100% see where she is coming from.


----------



## bunnahabhain

sunsetmist said:


> Are your friends starting families? Changing relationships into solid, character-building foundations?
> 
> I'm thinking she may be: 1) tired of waiting for you to grow up, 2) tired of your lack of true connection and emotional intimacy. She not only doesn't see you as a desirable husband (belittling, stone-walling?), but she doubts you'd be a good father. When I saw your ages that was what jumped out at me. Your growth as a man/maturity has been lacking--actually reverting to immature levels. And she can't *trust* that you'd be a father for her kids.
> 
> Have y'all ever discussed this openly and honestly? You need to figure out what she needs to be able to trust you!
> 
> Her use of the word TRUST is major. She needs for you to be responsible, dependable, loving, and caring--even when things are rough.


Yes, I do talk to her about it.

At the moment, understandably, I don't think she's ready to trust me.

My goal is to somehow, in the next six months, figure out a way that can get me a fraction of an opportunity to show my commitment, show her she can trust me, and slowly repair the relationship from there. She's agreed to go to therapy, not necessarily with the intention of saving anything. I don't want to talk about reconciliation with a therapist. My goal is to understand what I did not from the perspective of someone who reverted in maturity, but someone who experienced it from the other end, and from there figure out what I need to do to change on a deeper, more consistent level.


----------



## sunsetmist

bunnahabhain said:


> Yes, I do talk to her about it.
> 
> At the moment, understandably, I don't think she's ready to trust me.
> 
> My goal is to somehow, in the next six months, figure out a way that can get me a fraction of an opportunity to show my commitment, show her she can trust me, and slowly repair the relationship from there. She's agreed to go to therapy, not necessarily with the intention of saving anything. I don't want to talk about reconciliation with a therapist. My goal is to understand what I did not from the perspective of someone who reverted in maturity, but someone who experienced it from the other end, and from there figure out what I need to do to change on a deeper, more consistent level.


You are who you are. Your behavior is in need of repair if past behavior was as you said. What you describe above sounds a bit like manipulation. Become a better man--true to better standards--if this is not what she wants/who she trusts and loves--all may be folly.

Your name--whiskey or island? I've been to the Isle of Skye, but not Islay. Beautiful countryside.


----------



## StarFires

bunnahabhain said:


> For what it's worth, I do appreciate your honesty.
> 
> I appreciate your aggressiveness and your point of view.
> 
> I don't mean to assume your gender, but I think you and notmyjamie have approached this from an area of experience and I appreciate your efforts to help me understand the pain from the point of view of the victim.


No pain on my part because I have my whole life been entirely intolerant of abuse of any kind. I have an ex-husband and a couple ex-boyfriends who learned that the hard way with the scars as testimony. I don't know why some guys can't seem to listen, but I warned them in advance and, therefore, I am not responsible lol. There was an ex-boyfriend who thought, like you, I was going to be his verbal punching bag. I didn't make him pay as I should have, but I didn't stay with him any longer than the couple months it took for me to figure out his narcissistic tactics. Still no loss on my end. Perhaps you can thank my mother's "pain from the point of view of the victim." She taught me to demand respect from the men I would meet and date, to respect myself, and not to be a blathering weakling.



bunnahabhain said:


> All this being said, don't get me wrong, I accept that I'm going to have to accept a higher probability of just moving on and making sure I get things right with the next person.


Yes, the next person. I said that too but was very uncomfortable saying it. It's a logical conclusion, so I went with it. But I'm still uncomfortable. I said your next wife will reap the benefits, but why should she when your current wife deserves some reward for her labors and sorrows? Why should she get left with the lumber? (No, I don't have any idea what that means lol, but I'm sure you get my drift. Please consult Queen song "Friends Will Be Friends").

I'm the last person to suggest giving up and divorcing unless there is infidelity or abuse. I think everything else is fixable. You've been abusive, but not in the typical sense, at least not in what you've told us. It doesn't matter how many times you were verbally abusive or how few times you consider should be acceptable (counting on two hands or whatever) because just once is too many. But, based on what you shared here, your actions weren't the typical abuse-type patterns, and I think that's the source of my discomfort. I know there is help, or at least hope, in saving your marriage but refused to share with you and decided instead to ask more probing questions.

I had to ask myself if there is any abuse that is forgivable and the answer was a resounding "no" as is always the case regarding abuse. A woman should never tolerate it, not once and not for long. But, as Matt pointed out, I see you as lazy with some ridiculous sense of superiority and although that part is typical of abusive men, I can't help the feeling that you are a man who has some lessons to learn - a man who has to learn - and is learning - how to be a husband and what it means to have a wife. Or, are you the typical guy losing his wife and then crying and making promises just to prevent her from leaving.

I didn't get a response to my earlier questions. I'm not sure I expected you could respond since this is just so common. I don't know if any man could answer or would be willing to dig that deeply. I know that not all men are abusive jerks, so it sometimes seems quite a challenge to separate the jerk behaviors from the juvenile behaviors when they are both abusive. And I think that's where your wife is right now. She's married and lonely because you disengaged, and, well, that's just ridiculous. I'm sure you've heard the saying "I can be lonely all by myself." She's tired of being married to a child because children are not responsible, and, therefore, not dependable. She can't trust you with responsibility for anything, not her home nor her heart. You've taken both for granted. You said yourself that you need to start adulting and while you put away (or threw away) your toys, the fact remains that you disengaged and traded her for an entirely unproductive pastime, and that's not a woman's idea for a mate because she needs more than that. Another thing is what, on a primal level, a woman finds attractive in a man and the way in which we look to the future. If she has any desire to have children one day, she doesn't see you as the fathering/family man type. Those are beta traits (generally domestic) that men have to express as prominently as their alpha traits. Without both of those in equal measure, her view of you is as skewed as the mate model you present yourself to be. This is probably what she meant when she said she can't trust you and can't wait any longer. Do you know what it means to profess, provide, and protect? 

So, let me try a different approach: Have you learned that she's not your verbal punching bag? That she's not your inferior? That your wife is your equal? After all, you may consider yourself intellectually superior, but that's only in the areas in which she is not familiar, such as your job or your course of study, etc. There is zero likelihood that no subject matter exists in which she couldn't wipe the floor with you. It isn't as though you know everything and isn't as though there aren't some, if not many, subjects in which she is more familiar. That's the very definition of IQ and not what some test dictates. For these reasons, as well as the more pragmatic, humble, and personally respectful ones, you have no business considering yourself superior to her in any way. So, are you comfortable telling us what you've learned?


----------



## StarFires

I meant to add that I didn't think the statement I quoted was yours. I referred to his comment and your behaviors.


----------



## aine

bunnahabhain said:


> I will try to raise my awareness and see if I can discover truth there.
> 
> Regarding the emotional abuse, yes I did belittle her. I have called her stupid. I am a reader and a very intellectual person and I get frustrated easily when people "aren't at my level," whatever that means. I've been working on my arrogance there. (Edit: Also, this isn't like an every day thing. I can count the number of times I've said it on my hands, which doesn't make it okay. We talked every day. Texted each other, chatted each other. There was more positive talk than negative. I didn't come home, stonewall her, and call her stupid on the fly.)
> 
> I also let her iron my clothes, wash them, clean the house (we did get someone to come every two weeks), walk the dog, clean the windows, tile the floor (I helped break up the old tile and clear the way, but once the tiling started she did most of the work), etc. (Edit: To clarify this poorly written paragraph. I didn't gift these things to her. I let her do it while I didn't do anything, I let her take responsibility I should have owned up to. I don't mean to imply that these were good things.)
> 
> *I have an addiction to video games. They consume me.*
> 
> I got rid of my PS4. Since I did, I've been working out every day, doing things around the house, going out more with friends and co-workers. It was the best decision I've ever made, whether or not the marriage is saved.
> 
> I would play my ps4 while she worked.
> 
> And then I wouldn't even show my gratitude another way.
> 
> I've very introverted. It's hard for me to be vulnerable. When I try, I come off as fake because I hold back my emotion. When I show my emotion I go to 100. Not an excuse, just a challenge I accept and have to overcome and know that it has impacted my marriage negatively.
> 
> The reasons for the divorce are plain. And I understand her lack of trust.


Therein lies the problem. Marriage is difficult in general, throw in addiction it becomes intolerable. 

You mentioned heroin. Do you have an addictive personality? You sound like you have some of the traits, disconnected, obsessive, compulsive, unable to self regulate, apathetic, etc. You need help with this to become a healthier person.

For your wife, I believe she tried and tried. Put in what she could.
I am sure she begged, pleaded and begged again, fought with you, swore at you, etc for you to do something about the gaming and lack of quality time with her and support, but you fobbed her off. 
Landing a divorce on you, woke you up (it normally does with all sorts of addicts). Then you started back peddling to repair the damage.

I am sorry but your wife has already thought long and hard about getting out of a relationship where she shoulders everything and is married to a man who is never there for her in any form.
If she goes back into the marriage, in days you will be back at the same old same old. You have a serious problem, which must be dealt with first. 
Focus on becoming a better man, get help for your gaming problem from an addiction group and move on.


----------



## notmyjamie

bunnahabhain said:


> Yes, I do talk to her about it.
> 
> At the moment, understandably, I don't think she's ready to trust me.
> 
> My goal is to somehow, in the next six months, figure out a way that can get me a fraction of an opportunity to show my commitment, show her she can trust me, and slowly repair the relationship from there. She's agreed to go to therapy, not necessarily with the intention of saving anything. I don't want to talk about reconciliation with a therapist. My goal is to understand what I did not from the perspective of someone who reverted in maturity, but someone who experienced it from the other end, and from there figure out what I need to do to change on a deeper, more consistent level.


In light of your revelation that she, too, has been somewhat abusive to you, I would hope you would set the goal that you can both learn how to relate to each other better. Two wrongs most certainly do not make a right. Neither of you deserve to be mistreated in your relationship. I hope she is able to go with a similar mindset.

I wish you luck!!!!


----------



## Mr.Married

If I were your wife I would be thinking the following:

My clock is ticking, what if I want kids? I sure in the hell don't want them with my current husband as he cant be more than a child himself. 

I think I need a new husband. I need snap chat. I should stop having sex with my husband .... if I get pregnant I am completely screwed and stuck with him.

Divorce ... yes yes yes..that is what I need !


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Diana7 said:


> She may think that any changes you make are only because of her threat to divorce you. She may think that things will simply revert back to what they were if she stays.


 That's exactly why he's doing it - because in the past, she hadn't asked for a divorce so he didn't care how badly he was treating her or how he chose to completely disengage from the marriage and family to play his video games. He didn't give a rat's ass because he wasn't LOSING anything..

Now that she wants out and he's LOSING something, he's suddenly ALL about becoming Super Husband. 

And it just rings SO damned hollow.

I say this because it's often said that a man's TRUE character can be judged by what he does when no one is looking. OP, you could have spent this time improving yourself out of a desire to be a better man for your wife. But all that time, you did nothing because YOU DIDN'T CARE. Now suddenly, you do. And you're putting on t his big dog and pony show for her. That's why the whole thing seems SO damned phony.


----------



## Chaparral

Your dig about a 70s man makes it clear you’re still missing the point. It’s about taking responsibility for your side of the fence.

The reason for figuring out if she’s interested in someone else is that the advise would be different as opposed to if it’s just her no longer wanting to be with you. Reading the books is essential. Bottle m line is you’re dealing well th biology and that hasn’t changed in the past and won’t change in the future regardless of how we wish thins were.


----------



## bunnahabhain

Chaparral said:


> Your dig about a 70s man makes it clear you’re still missing the point. It’s about taking responsibility for your side of the fence.
> 
> The reason for figuring out if she’s interested in someone else is that the advise would be different as opposed to if it’s just her no longer wanting to be with you. Reading the books is essential. Bottle m line is you’re dealing well th biology and that hasn’t changed in the past and won’t change in the future regardless of how we wish thins were.


With all due respect, and not to argue, I got the point. In all fairness, I said the same thing as you in the second paragraph just below the dig.

It doesn't mean I shouldn't hear it again.

My dig wrt "manly man" and "video games" is that the connection doesn't resonate for someone who is from a gamer generation. I go out with her and her coworkers, and they talk about video games. The woman we have as a project manager here plays video games. I started to play video games because it was a woman co-worker who said I'd enjoyed the game she was playing.

My issue is not that I play video games and therefore am not a manly man, my issue is that I play video games and they consume me.



sunsetmist said:


> You are who you are. Your behavior is in need of repair if past behavior was as you said. What you describe above sounds a bit like manipulation. Become a better man--true to better standards--if this is not what she wants/who she trusts and loves--all may be folly.
> 
> Your name--whiskey or island? I've been to the Isle of Skye, but not Islay. Beautiful countryside.


Whiskey. One day I will visit the island of Islay. 

I'm sure it was incredibly beautiful. I'm jealous!

Do you think asking her to express her pain to me is more manipulatory than going to a therapist with the overt intent of saving the marriage? Serious question. Do you think at this point us going to a therapist to save the marriage wouldn't actually be worse, since she's not interested in that? I'm just wondering if trying to learn from her vs. trying to persuade her is the better option.



StarFires said:


> ...


I'm sorry, let me look through the thread and see what you had asked. I didn't mean to ignore them.

Regarding your question about initiating sex, 65-35, 65 on her end. I started to initiate less several years ago because most of the time she would reject the approach.

You ask, "Have you learned that she's not your verbal punching bag?"

I've always known this. I edited my former response where I first delve into the abuse because I didn't express myself well. I read another thread on the forum where a woman explains how her husband comes home, shuts himself off, and insults her. That doesn't encapsulate my relationship with my wife. We texted and chatted every day. We'd have pleasant conversations. I often did praise her intelligence, her work, her excellence in areas where she has achieved excellence.

It's not like the relationship was purely abusive.

Sometimes I get frustrated and I let my emotions take control of me and I say stupid things.

Not trying to excuse that, rather trying to better explain my problem.

I'm going to a therapist in large part to learn how to better keep control of my mouth when I am frustrated.

What I have learned is that I have to take responsibility for my problems because people aren't going to wait around forever for me. I'm not entitled to them waiting for me. I'm not entitled to someone putting up with my issues.

What I have learned, as I have taken on almost every responsibility -- and, yes, I agree with you and others that right now this is all just a post-loss response and there's a lot of work ahead to prove commitment to change --, is that I let her waste her time doing things for me she could have spent on herself. I have tried to work on my empathy, and I do see it from her side and that's why I let her know that I support her decision to divorce me.

I'm not crying to her. I'm not promising anything to her.

I simply asked if there was a baby step we could take toward proving my commitment to change. This baby step would be taken simultaneously with us filing paperwork.

And I have never considered myself superior in every way and I have never communicated that belief to her. Where I have said stupid things and treated poorly are in specific contexts around specific topics. Like, for example, she's always wanted me to be there with her when she goes out with friends, even if I don't like the scene. If she wants to go to a club, I go to a club. If she wants to go to a bar, I go to a bar. When I ask her to go out with me when I go with my friends, she says she doesn't like my friends. I say that I go out with her regardless of what I think. She responds, "Next time you don't have to." I say, "That's stupid."

One time we had a debate on the NFL, cheerleaders, and the abuse they went through. It happened after it was made public that NFL charimen would have cheerleaders basically sleep with sponsors to get money from them for the league. I agreed that it was terrible. She said she didn't agree with them wearing what they do on the field. I said, they make a voluntary choice to accept that job. I reiterated that I disagree that that means they can force those women to do out-of-contract things and that those women should sue. She focused on my disagreement over my agreement, and the argument went south. I said, "Don't be dumb, I agree with you on most things. I'm just saying..."

Are those terrible responses on my part? Yes.

Hopefully it provides more context on the abuse.

Last night, we talked about a business that I texted and they said they couldn't deliver to my area because of laws. They text me four days later that now they can. I call them morons, she calls them morons, and then I make the point that I can't use that word anymore because I use it to hurt people I love.

Am I being superficial? Am I learning? I can claim anything here. I don't want to claim. I want to prove.

And any help I can get for that, any recommendations on how to start my change and make sure I commit to it, I appreciate.



aine said:


> Therein lies the problem. Marriage is difficult in general, throw in addiction it becomes intolerable.
> 
> You mentioned heroin. Do you have an addictive personality? You sound like you have some of the traits, disconnected, obsessive, compulsive, unable to self regulate, apathetic, etc. You need help with this to become a healthier person.
> 
> For your wife, I believe she tried and tried. Put in what she could.
> I am sure she begged, pleaded and begged again, fought with you, swore at you, etc for you to do something about the gaming and lack of quality time with her and support, but you fobbed her off.
> Landing a divorce on you, woke you up (it normally does with all sorts of addicts). Then you started back peddling to repair the damage.
> 
> I am sorry but your wife has already thought long and hard about getting out of a relationship where she shoulders everything and is married to a man who is never there for her in any form.
> If she goes back into the marriage, in days you will be back at the same old same old. You have a serious problem, which must be dealt with first.
> Focus on becoming a better man, get help for your gaming problem from an addiction group and move on.



With some things I do, with other things I don't have an addictive personality. I tried cigarettes when I lived in Spain, would smoke relatively often, never got addicted. At least, never went through withdrawal when I stopped smoking altogether some months later. I don't do drugs other than marijuana. We both smoke marijuana. I have started to smoke less because my therapist recommended it, not because she's against weed but because she said that if I have an addictive personality than I need to see my marijuana use that way too. I don't drink a lot. I own a lot of whiskey. I drink hard liquor maybe twice to four times a month, and when I do it's a dram or two.



She'sStillGotIt said:


> That's exactly why he's doing it - because in the past, she hadn't asked for a divorce so he didn't care how badly he was treating her or how he chose to completely disengage from the marriage and family to play his video games. He didn't give a rat's ass because he wasn't LOSING anything..
> 
> Now that she wants out and he's LOSING something, he's suddenly ALL about becoming Super Husband.
> 
> And it just rings SO damned hollow.
> 
> I say this because it's often said that a man's TRUE character can be judged by what he does when no one is looking. OP, you could have spent this time improving yourself out of a desire to be a better man for your wife. But all that time, you did nothing because YOU DIDN'T CARE. Now suddenly, you do. And you're putting on t his big dog and pony show for her. That's why the whole thing seems SO damned phony.


You're right.

Better late than never.


----------



## NobodySpecial

bunnahabhain said:


> I will try to raise my awareness and see if I can discover truth there.
> 
> Regarding the emotional abuse, yes I did belittle her. I have called her stupid. I am a reader and a very intellectual person and I get frustrated easily when people "aren't at my level," whatever that means. I've been working on my arrogance there. (Edit: Also, this isn't like an every day thing. I can count the number of times I've said it on my hands, which doesn't make it okay. We talked every day. Texted each other, chatted each other. There was more positive talk than negative. I didn't come home, stonewall her, and call her stupid on the fly.)
> 
> I also let her iron my clothes, wash them, clean the house (we did get someone to come every two weeks), walk the dog, clean the windows, tile the floor (I helped break up the old tile and clear the way, but once the tiling started she did most of the work), etc. (Edit: To clarify this poorly written paragraph. I didn't gift these things to her. I let her do it while I didn't do anything, I let her take responsibility I should have owned up to. I don't mean to imply that these were good things.)
> 
> I have an addiction to video games. They consume me.
> 
> I got rid of my PS4. Since I did, I've been working out every day, doing things around the house, going out more with friends and co-workers. It was the best decision I've ever made, whether or not the marriage is saved.
> 
> I would play my ps4 while she worked.
> 
> And then I wouldn't even show my gratitude another way.
> 
> I've very introverted. It's hard for me to be vulnerable. When I try, I come off as fake because I hold back my emotion. When I show my emotion I go to 100. Not an excuse, just a challenge I accept and have to overcome and know that it has impacted my marriage negatively.
> 
> The reasons for the divorce are plain. And I understand her lack of trust.


I am reading this. WHo cares if she has someone else? If she was lonely, alone and hurting, she found someone before she snapped the line. Move on. Divorce amicably, learn.


----------



## StarFires

bunnahabhain said:


> Do you think asking her to express her pain to me is more manipulatory than going to a therapist with the overt intent of saving the marriage? Serious question. Do you think at this point us going to a therapist to save the marriage wouldn't actually be worse, since she's not interested in that? I'm just wondering if trying to learn from her vs. trying to persuade her is the better option.


You asked him, and I don't know what his response would be, but my response is to suggest you not ask her to express anything to you. She won't appreciate that. I know I wouldn't. We women have a tendency to think, or at least expect, you can read our minds. So, in her mind, you should already know what you did that caused her pain without expecting her to be the one to open to you. That's too much to ask being that she is the offended. It's not on her to have to confess anything to you. You being the offender, you have to open up to her. What she might appreciate is you expressing/enumerating the ways you know you were offensive. Consider it your come to Jesus moment. You have to confess, and you have to do it without adding any reasons (or excuses) for having done or said those things like you've done here with us. She's not interested in hearing you explain that you thought she was dumb, why you thought she was dumb, and so that's why you called her dumb. Stating your reasons is not confessing but justifying. Do you see the difference? Justifying your actions will mean to her that you still don't take responsibility for your actions since you'd essentially be telling her that you feel you had reason to offend her. And not being responsible or taking responsibility is what she finds disapproving in you because it's immature, and is, therefore, the reason she feels she's married to a child. 

1. Confess
2. Take responsibility
3. Apologize sincerely

I don't feel you are getting the message, so I'm trying to explain things a little more in depth and in different terms than we here have been doing so far. I think we all have come down pretty hard on you and while I think you are taking it like a champ instead of getting defensive and abandoning your thread, you also are not seeing the wider picture in terms of understanding the damage you've done to your wife. 

So, this is what you're telling us:



bunnahabhain said:


> You ask, "Have you learned that she's not your verbal punching bag?"
> 
> I've always known this. I edited my former response where I first delve into the abuse because I didn't express myself well. I read another thread on the forum where a woman explains how her husband comes home, shuts himself off, and insults her. That doesn't encapsulate my relationship with my wife. We texted and chatted every day. We'd have pleasant conversations. I often did praise her intelligence, her work, her excellence in areas where she has achieved excellence.


And then......



bunnahabhain said:


> It's not like the relationship was purely abusive.
> 
> Sometimes I get frustrated and I let my emotions take control of me and I say stupid things.


......which means you totally erased any and all good things you did and said to replace them with the awful things you did and said. You reduced your praise to magnanimous gestures, which are self-serving, to reveal that your true feelings are that she's pretty stupid in your estimation. It's not possible for a person to be smart and dumb at the same time. You offered compliments to her intellect and excellence, and then your subsequent effort was to re-establish yourself by reducing her and putting her back in her place - her place being behind your superior intellect and excellence. 

That's what you do, so that's what she sees.....and feels. The hormones her brain releases in relation to your insults are stronger and much more impactful than those released in relation to your compliments. It doesn't matter if they occur every day or not. It also doesn't matter if you share an otherwise good relationship. They occur often enough that she's sick of you reducing and marginalizing her. Add that to your other irresponsible and immature activities and behavior to arrive at a negative summation. The way she sees this is you are not as wonderful as you think you are, and she's not as stupid as you try to make her feel.

Just received an emergency call from my daughter. Will pick back up later.


----------



## farsidejunky

bunnahabhain said:


> You're definitely right. Nobody deserves to be cheated on.
> 
> 
> 
> Out of curiosity, do you think it's a bad idea to try to win her back even if she has not cheated on me?


Going to extraordinary measures to win a woman's heart is a fools errand.

Always has been...and always will be.

It is a lie you are telling her through your actions..."This is who I am"...when it isn't. It may be who you WANT to be, or maybe who you are RIGHT NOW, but not who you are in the long run. As I said...a lie.

Be who you are. Be who you say. The people who are supposed to be in your life will remain. Those who don't...won't. 



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## bunnahabhain

StarFires said:


> You asked him, and I don't know what his response would be, but my response is to suggest you not ask her to express anything to you. She won't appreciate that. I know I wouldn't. We women have a tendency to think, or at least expect, you can read our minds. So, in her mind, you should already know what you did that caused her pain without expecting her to be the one to open to you. That's too much to ask being that she is the offended. It's not on her to have to confess anything to you. You being the offender, you have to open up to her. What she might appreciate is you expressing/enumerating the ways you know you were offensive. Consider it your come to Jesus moment. You have to confess, and you have to do it without adding any reasons (or excuses) for having done or said those things like you've done here with us. She's not interested in hearing you explain that you thought she was dumb, why you thought she was dumb, and so that's why you called her dumb. Stating your reasons is not confessing but justifying. Do you see the difference? Justifying your actions will mean to her that you still don't take responsibility for your actions since you'd essentially be telling her that you feel you had reason to offend her. And not being responsible or taking responsibility is what she finds disapproving in you because it's immature, and is, therefore, the reason she feels she's married to a child.
> 
> 1. Confess
> 2. Take responsibility
> 3. Apologize sincerely
> 
> I don't feel you are getting the message, so I'm trying to explain things a little more in depth and in different terms than we here have been doing so far. I think we all have come down pretty hard on you and while I think you are taking it like a champ instead of getting defensive and abandoning your thread, you also are not seeing the wider picture in terms of understanding the damage you've done to your wife.
> 
> So, this is what you're telling us:
> 
> 
> 
> And then......
> 
> 
> 
> ......which means you totally erased any and all good things you did and said to replace them with the awful things you did and said. You reduced your praise to magnanimous gestures, which are self-serving, to reveal that your true feelings are that she's pretty stupid in your estimation. It's not possible for a person to be smart and dumb at the same time. You offered compliments to her intellect and excellence, and then your subsequent effort was to re-establish yourself by reducing her and putting her back in her place - her place being behind your superior intellect and excellence.
> 
> That's what you do, so that's what she sees.....and feels. The hormones her brain releases in relation to your insults are stronger and much more impactful than those released in relation to your compliments. It doesn't matter if they occur every day or not. It also doesn't matter if you share an otherwise good relationship. They occur often enough that she's sick of you reducing and marginalizing her. Add that to your other irresponsible and immature activities and behavior to arrive at a negative summation. The way she sees this is you are not as wonderful as you think you are, and she's not as stupid as you try to make her feel.
> 
> Just received an emergency call from my daughter. Will pick back up later.


Okay, I will reflect on what you wrote.

I won't ask her to do anything in therapy.

And I'll focus on confessing, taking responsibility.

The other day I wrote and read to her a document on things she did for me that I took for granted.

I will write something on, rather than what I took for granted, how I wronged her.

I appreciate you going more in-depth. That is actually very useful.

As "intelligent" as I think I am, I don't get things right away. So thank you for taking the time to help.


----------



## bunnahabhain

farsidejunky said:


> Going to extraordinary measures to win a woman's heart is a fools errand.
> 
> Always has been...and always will be.
> 
> It is a lie you are telling her through your actions..."This is who I am"...when it isn't. It may be who you WANT to be, or maybe who you are RIGHT NOW, but not who you are in the long run. As I said...a lie.
> 
> Be who you are. Be who you say. The people who are supposed to be in your life will remain. Those who don't...won't.


Thank you, I appreciate it.

To be fair, I am probably misunderstanding your point. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The thing is, I can't believe I can't change. Not just to win her back, but to improve myself.

I was a bad student. I got a 1.9 GPA in high school. I went to community college, said **** it, and joined the Army. When I got out of the Army, I went back to school. Same story.

I got put on academic probation. It was the first semester we knew each other. I realized that if I didn't get my **** together, I would lose her.

I got put on the dean's list the very next semester. I graduated with two majors with a 3.1 overall and a 3.6 major GPA.

When I graduated, I was unemployed for six months. Couldn't find a job. Didn't want to work as a school sub, even though I got my sub credentials I never did it. I took a job at a marketing agency for $10/hr. I worked my way up to where I am now, which is much, much more than that in 4 years. I'm not trying to brag, it's not like I'm in the six digits here, but I do have a history of change and improvement when I'm compelled.

Yea, I should realize things sooner. All of us should.

But now that I realize it, even if it's too late for this marriage, I don't see why I shouldn't figure out what will compel me to change permanently again.


----------



## bunnahabhain

re: the overall "move on" responses.

I get it.

But, before the divorce is finalized, there's a balance to moving on.

Let's say she's not cheating on me. Hell, let's say she is. How would she feel if I moved on by sleeping with another woman? Maybe she wouldn't feel anything. Maybe it would bring her pain. I would rather not move on and deal with it than take the risk. Edit: I don't even feel like I want to do that, risk or not. So, at this moment, I'm not ready to move on to that degree. I think that's okay.

Plus, what pain would I bring on another woman if I "moved on" while still having all this emotional baggage? While I "moved on," I create problems for other people.

For me, the balance of moving on at this juncture is to focus on my own life. Focus on my own problems. Focus on becoming a better man or, as many of you have rightfully said, evolving from child to man. This doesn't mean I can move on 100% yet.

I can't move on 100% until the divorce is finalized.

I get what you're saying, but there is a balance and you can't escape from the pain. And I don't want to escape from the pain because the pain is, right now, the main thing that has made it so obvious what a selfish ass I've been.


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## farsidejunky

bunnahabhain said:


> Thank you, I appreciate it.
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, I am probably misunderstanding your point. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is, I can't believe I can't change. Not just to win her back, but to improve myself.
> 
> 
> 
> I was a bad student. I got a 1.9 GPA in high school. I went to community college, said **** it, and joined the Army. When I got out of the Army, I went back to school. Same story.
> 
> 
> 
> I got put on academic probation. It was the first semester we knew each other. I realized that if I didn't get my **** together, I would lose her.
> 
> 
> 
> I got put on the dean's list the very next semester. I graduated with two majors with a 3.1 overall and a 3.6 major GPA.
> 
> 
> 
> When I graduated, I was unemployed for six months. Couldn't find a job. Didn't want to work as a school sub, even though I got my sub credentials I never did it. I took a job at a marketing agency for $10/hr. I worked my way up to where I am now, which is much, much more than that in 4 years. I'm not trying to brag, it's not like I'm in the six digits here, but I do have a history of change and improvement when I'm compelled.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, I should realize things sooner. All of us should.
> 
> 
> 
> But now that I realize it, even if it's too late for this marriage, I don't see why I shouldn't figure out what will compel me to change permanently again.


So your comfort zone is sort of an underachiever, with a tremendous amount of unrealized potential. Does that about sum it up?

You are on the right track with regards to whom you owe your self-improvement. It is not for her. It is for you.

Let me ask you this:

Do you struggle to find the motivation to be great for just yourself?

Do you find yourself conjuring a mental image of her when needing to push yourself just that little extra bit?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

bunnahabhain said:


> re: the overall "move on" responses.
> 
> I get it.
> 
> But, before the divorce is finalized, there's a balance to moving on.
> 
> Let's say she's not cheating on me. Hell, let's say she is. How would she feel if I moved on by sleeping with another woman? Maybe she wouldn't feel anything. Maybe it would bring her pain. I would rather not move on and deal with it than take the risk. Edit: I don't even feel like I want to do that, risk or not. So, at this moment, I'm not ready to move on to that degree. I think that's okay.
> 
> Plus, what pain would I bring on another woman if I "moved on" while still having all this emotional baggage? While I "moved on," I create problems for other people.
> 
> For me, the balance of moving on at this juncture is to focus on my own life. Focus on my own problems. Focus on becoming a better man or, as many of you have rightfully said, evolving from child to man. This doesn't mean I can move on 100% yet.
> 
> I can't move on 100% until the divorce is finalized.
> 
> I get what you're saying, but there is a balance and you can't escape from the pain. And I don't want to escape from the pain because the pain is, right now, the main thing that has made it so obvious what a selfish ass I've been.


If you want to really do the right thing, your conversation with her should go something like this:

"I have made many mistakes in our relationship. For that, I am truly sorry. 

You have indicated that you need space, and I'm willing to respect that. In this space, I'm going to focus on myself. I won't chase you, ask you about our relationship, nor press you for anything. If you would like to spend time with me, just ask. 

However, the unintended consequence of this is that every day this situation continues reduces my hope of our relationship working out, leading to the eventual conclusion that I have no choice but to move on.

If you want to work on our relationship, I am more than willing to do so, but it will take effort from both of us. Unless you are willing to put in the work with me, please don't ask.

I love you, and always will. I hope we can both find what it takes to recover our marriage, but if not, I will focus on us parting on as amicable terms as possible."

This is also assuming there is not another man.

Here's the thing:

Right now, she is calling all the shots. A relationship dynamic requires two individuals to create. Whether she realizes it or not, she had a part to play in this as well. The above statement (while wordy) clearly tells her that you won't wait around and pine for her forever while she sits on the fence.

In other words, without that, you are essentially enabling her to eat cake. She gets you when she wants you, while she sends you on your way when she doesn't. This has zero regard for what you may want.

Bovine excrement.

Short and sweet: either we get better together, or we work to end it, and I won't wait around forever.

In the meantime, you work on you. You become the very best man you can be. You do it for you, and nobody else. Changes never stick when they're motivated for another.

I'm going to leave you with two sayings. One is by Maya Angelou, while the other one is mine.

Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option.

Love yourself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable.

I live my life by those two mantras. I also do my very best to remember those two mantras when interacting with other people who matter to me.

Good luck.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

One last thing. Don't even bother with the above statement if you can't actually mean it.

My third mantra:

Never...ever...ever play brinkmanship unless you are willing to go over the brink.

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## bunnahabhain

farsidejunky said:


> So your comfort zone is sort of an underachiever, with a tremendous amount of unrealized potential. Does that about sum it up?
> 
> You are on the right track with regards to whom you owe your self-improvement. It is not for her. It is for you.
> 
> Let me ask you this:
> 
> Do you struggle to find the motivation to be great for just yourself?
> 
> Do you find yourself conjuring a mental image of her when needing to push yourself just that little extra bit?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk



It depends on what I'm motivating myself on. All around, yes, that's about right.

It's not hard to motivate myself in my career. I understand next steps, I understand what I need to do to keep it going. I know what I need to learn next.

With my marriage, I was not able to figure that out. Or I was too preoccupied with what I wanted to think about it.

Re: your statement.

I did say something similar that first weekend after she asked for divorce. I forget the exact conversation. It wasn't as smooth as your version. In response to something, I forget what, she said that maybe down the road we can try again. I told her that I didn't know if I could wait that long.

I feel that this is just part of a bad habit and that I should move past this, especially given all the emphasis on moving on.

It just feels as if the situation is really ambiguous. We're going shopping together tomorrow. She wants my opinion on tops.

Two weekends ago, in the car, I asked her why she took off her ring (I knew it's because she's divorcing me, I just wanted to ask anyways). She said what I thought it was and then said, "maybe I'll wear it again one day."

So I get this tug-of-war where when I ask directly she's adamant about not working on the relationship, but then leaves it open for the relationship to one day happen again.

Do you think this is part of calling the shots, getting what she wants, and sending me away when she doesn't need me?

And should I care? Because let's say she's playing with me. If I use that as an excuse to disengage, wouldn't disengagement hurt my ability to use my day-to-day experiences with her to practice on being a better person? Is it bad if I want to leave a final last impression of me that isn't the impression that caused her to divorce me?


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## farsidejunky

It goes on as long as you allow. 

So why should last impressions matter? Desperation...

I still think there is another man, but you have no confirmation either way.

That said, the only reason you are on the emotional roller coaster is because you have chosen to remain. It stops when you simply say, "No."

If you are divorcing, then get busy divorcing.

If you are reconciling, get busy reconciling.

If it is bovine excrement (hint, hint), have the fortitude to actually call it.

"I am unwilling to date my wife when she says she wants a divorce. We either choose to get better, or we choose to end it."

You are allowing her to get her emotional needs met while she is denying reciprocity. 

Every single time you do this, it runs the risk of eroding respect. In turn, you are trading your self respect for "hopium", and silently pleading for life to lead her back to you.

It is like slowly ripping off a band aid. You know it has to come off, and each tug hurts like hell, but the inevitable fact is that it will come off.

Stop trading your self respect in a desperate attempt to get your wife to change her mind. It is only hurting both of you.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## StarFires

farsidejunky said:


> If you want to really do the right thing, your conversation with her should go something like this:
> 
> "I have made many mistakes in our relationship. For that, I am truly sorry.
> 
> You have indicated that you need space, and I'm willing to respect that. In this space, I'm going to focus on myself. I won't chase you, ask you about our relationship, nor press you for anything. If you would like to spend time with me, just ask.
> 
> However, the unintended consequence of this is that every day this situation continues reduces my hope of our relationship working out, leading to the eventual conclusion that I have no choice but to move on.
> 
> If you want to work on our relationship, I am more than willing to do so, but it will take effort from both of us. Unless you are willing to put in the work with me, please don't ask.
> 
> I love you, and always will. I hope we can both find what it takes to recover our marriage, but if not, I will focus on us parting on as amicable terms as possible."
> 
> This is also assuming there is not another man.
> 
> Here's the thing:
> 
> Right now, she is calling all the shots. A relationship dynamic requires two individuals to create. Whether she realizes it or not, she had a part to play in this as well. The above statement (while wordy) clearly tells her that you won't wait around and pine for her forever while she sits on the fence.
> 
> In other words, without that, you are essentially enabling her to eat cake. She gets you when she wants you, while she sends you on your way when she doesn't. This has zero regard for what you may want.
> 
> Bovine excrement.
> 
> Short and sweet: either we get better together, or we work to end it, and I won't wait around forever.
> 
> In the meantime, you work on you. You become the very best man you can be. You do it for you, and nobody else. Changes never stick when they're motivated for another.
> 
> I'm going to leave you with two sayings. One is by Maya Angelou, while the other one is mine.
> 
> Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option.
> 
> Love yourself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable.
> 
> I live my life by those two mantras. I also do my very best to remember those two mantras when interacting with other people who matter to me.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Say to me what farsidejunky suggested, and I will ask you to move out (or I will) being unable to stand the sight of you a moment longer. I know some women are desperate to have and keep a man, but I'm not one of them, so that crap would do nothing but disgust me after I told you I was going to get a divorce. Not to mention it would be nothing but further display of your mistaken inflated sense of superiority. You would do better saying nothing to me at all.

I'm not sure what either of the quotes has to do with you. You are not an option to your wife. She wants a divorce. That's not making you or treating you like an option. And, I say the love yourself enough principle all the time, but your wife hasn't done anything to you or behaved in any way considered intolerable. Neither quote applies to you or your situation.


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## StarFires

bunnahabhain said:


> I did say something similar that first weekend after she asked for divorce. I forget the exact conversation. It wasn't as smooth as your version. In response to something, I forget what, she said that maybe down the road we can try again. I told her that I didn't know if I could wait that long.
> 
> I feel that this is just part of a bad habit and that I should move past this, especially given all the emphasis on moving on.
> 
> It just feels as if the situation is really ambiguous. We're going shopping together tomorrow. She wants my opinion on tops.
> 
> Two weekends ago, in the car, I asked her why she took off her ring (I knew it's because she's divorcing me, I just wanted to ask anyways). She said what I thought it was and then said, "maybe I'll wear it again one day."
> 
> So I get this tug-of-war where when I ask directly she's adamant about not working on the relationship, but then leaves it open for the relationship to one day happen again.
> 
> Do you think this is part of calling the shots, getting what she wants, and sending me away when she doesn't need me?
> 
> And should I care? Because let's say she's playing with me. If I use that as an excuse to disengage, wouldn't disengagement hurt my ability to use my day-to-day experiences with her to practice on being a better person? Is it bad if I want to leave a final last impression of me that isn't the impression that caused her to divorce me?


I don't know if she's playing with you or not. It could be that she's trying to keep the living situation smooth going since the subject of divorce could potentially create a volatile atmosphere. It could be avoidance tactics we women employ sometimes when we feel saying something hopeful serves a better purpose than saying something hurtful. It could be that she wants a divorce because of how the marriage has (or has not as it were) progressed, but perhaps she still loves you and is still hopeful. Women spend a lot of time wishing. 

Divorce is a daunting prospect even for the party who wants out. The navigation alone can be scary. Some people want to divorce but never do just because of fear of the word and what it means. And, there's always the emotional factor of having to let go of your hopes and dreams you had for the marriage and life you so far built together. I would wager, based on all of this, that she is as confused as you are but maybe sees no other solution. And, I can't discount or ignore the possibility that she's playing with you. I can't imagine why she would, except to maybe call herself shocking you into whipping yourself into shape, which is clearly working if that was her intention. And why not? It had to happen somehow since you haven't been the most ideal of husbands or potential father material.

I understand why you're confused, but nobody can really say why she says confusing things.


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## Red Sonja

StarFires said:


> Say to me what farsidejunky suggested, and I will ask you to move out (or I will) being unable to stand the sight of you a moment longer. I know some women are desperate to have and keep a man, but I'm not one of them, so that crap would do nothing but disgust me after I told you I was going to get a divorce. Not to mention it would be nothing but further display of your mistaken inflated sense of superiority. You would do better saying nothing to me at all.


I agree, I would have the same reaction along with a good .

I was the wife in a similar type of marriage ... same type of man with the sense of superiority, ignoring behaviors, entitlement, belittlement and general lack of respect. And, when I was done, I was DONE. There was no OM, why would I take a chance on another man-child? I knew I needed to be alone and figure out why I picked a such a man and why I tolerated a situation where I was not "seen or heard" for so long.

All you can do OP is learn from your mistakes and become a better human being.


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## sunsetmist

I find I'm having a difficult time describing what I am feeling, but...

It is like when you were married, it was more of a competition than a union of loving partners. It should be, when he hurts, I hurt, or when she hurts, he hurts--marriage is hard enough without the partners creating distance by hurting each other.

When one partner feels better about themselves by putting the other down, then the relationship seems to me to be quite sick.

A child reacts as I have described above, an adult relationship engenders mostly sort of a one for all and all for one scenario.


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## farsidejunky

RS and SF, that may indeed be your reaction.

She says they are getting divorced. Her actions are communicating something slightly different.

The idea is to actually see if she means what she says. If her actions and words aligned, there would be no confusion, therefore there would be no reason to say what I suggested.

This is my bias: I don't have patience for limbo. 

If you want out, I will help you out as fast as humanly possible, and it is all business from here...no dinners, no "dates" (that is what they are), nothing except polite discussions on how to end the union in a civil manner. Time to move on for both of us.

If you don't, then stop with the threats of divorce and let's do our very best to make our marriage great.

It really is that simple.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Ms. Hawaii

farsidejunky said:


> If you want to really do the right thing, your conversation with her should go something like this:
> 
> "I have made many mistakes in our relationship. For that, I am truly sorry.
> 
> You have indicated that you need space, and I'm willing to respect that. In this space, I'm going to focus on myself. I won't chase you, ask you about our relationship, nor press you for anything. If you would like to spend time with me, just ask.
> 
> However, the unintended consequence of this is that every day this situation continues reduces my hope of our relationship working out, leading to the eventual conclusion that I have no choice but to move on.
> 
> If you want to work on our relationship, I am more than willing to do so, but it will take effort from both of us. Unless you are willing to put in the work with me, please don't ask.
> 
> I love you, and always will. I hope we can both find what it takes to recover our marriage, but if not, I will focus on us parting on as amicable terms as possible."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk




Op, DO NOT say this to your wife. 

I’ve been following your thread, and you remind me so much of my ex. 

He treated me like crap (yelling, calling me stupid, cursing). 2 years ago I had enough and told him I was done. 

He suddenly heard me and wanted to change. He even started IC. I was on the fence for a few months. I think I would have blocked his number if he dared said what I quoted above. 


To me, it shows that you do t get what you did. Honestly, I hope she doesn’t take you back. Sorry!


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## StarFires

farsidejunky said:


> RS and SF, that may indeed be your reaction.
> 
> She says they are getting divorced. Her actions are communicating something slightly different.
> 
> The idea is to actually see if she means what she says. If her actions and words aligned, there would be no confusion, therefore there would be no reason to say what I suggested.
> 
> This is my bias: I don't have patience for limbo.
> 
> If you want out, I will help you out as fast as humanly possible, and it is all business from here...no dinners, no "dates" (that is what they are), nothing except polite discussions on how to end the union in a civil manner. Time to move on for both of us.
> 
> If you don't, then stop with the threats of divorce and let's do our very best to make our marriage great.
> 
> It really is that simple.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I can't disagree with one word of your logic. It was your suggested method of address that ran foul.


----------



## farsidejunky

Ms. Hawaii said:


> Op, DO NOT say this to your wife.
> 
> I’ve been following your thread, and you remind me so much of my ex.
> 
> He treated me like crap (yelling, calling me stupid, cursing). 2 years ago I had enough and told him I was done.
> 
> He suddenly heard me and wanted to change. He even started IC. I was on the fence for a few months. I think I would have blocked his number if he dared said what I quoted above.
> 
> 
> To me, it shows that you do t get what you did. Honestly, I hope she doesn’t take you back. Sorry!


Let me ask you something.

Both of us are projecting ourselves into the scenario, so for a moment, let's leave ourselves out of it. 

If she is actually divorcing him, does any of it matter? In theory, the union is over, right? She can't divorce him "more" or "harder" so to speak. 

If it's over, whether he says everything wrong OR everything right, it is STILL over.

Saying the right things then only causes her feelings of guilt. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Red Sonja

farsidejunky said:


> Let me ask you something.
> 
> Both of us are projecting ourselves into the scenario, so for a moment, let's leave ourselves out of it.
> 
> If she is actually divorcing him, does any of it matter? In theory, the union is over, right? She can't divorce him "more" or "harder" so to speak.
> 
> If it's over, whether he says everything wrong OR everything right, it is STILL over.
> 
> Saying the right things then only causes her feelings of guilt.


The only reason it matters is that so far she is being cooperative in being willing to sit down and hash out a marital settlement agreement (required in CA) without lawyers ... so why chance pissing her off with a sanctimonious speech? I am not criticizing your words FAR, just saying that _those_ words coming from OP's mouth would be sanctimonious.

I can't speak to the guilt part of your post except to say I didn't feel any guilt in my similar situation ... only sadness, along with a sense of relief.


----------



## farsidejunky

Red Sonja said:


> The only reason it matters is that so far she is being cooperative in being willing to sit down and hash out a marital settlement agreement (required in CA) without lawyers ... so why chance pissing her off with a sanctimonious speech? I am not criticizing your words FAR, just saying that _those_ words coming from OP's mouth would be sanctimonious.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't speak to the guilt part of your post except to say I didn't feel any guilt in my similar situation ... only sadness, along with a sense of relief.


I can't disagree with this.

That said, she is engaging him. She wants him to "shop for tops". That is a date. Dating is for people who are building or maintaining a relationship, not ending one. 

She seems to think she can divorce him while still getting her emotional needs met by him, and he is allowing it...based on hope.

This appears selfish on her part. Not nefariously so, but selfish nonetheless. Even if using resentment to justify it (though it is in all likelihood not ill intentioned) is still cruel if she actually intends to divorce. 

To further add to the above, using someones poor actions to justify ones own is hypocrisy (if this is indeed happening this way) gives her little room to complain about what he did or did not do in the marriage. 

If it is nefarious (which I highly doubt, but will cover for the sake of the argument), then it becomes even worse. 

Maybe the OP can handle this without being crushed. I'm saying that I don't know if I could...in fact, I probably couldn't...at least not well. I'm not wired that way. So I would set about to end limbo one way or another in order to begin my healing.

OP, you know what you can and can't handle. Just be on the lookout for hopium on your end and selfishness on hers. It won't end well for you. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## StarFires

Farsidejunkey, what if you're being too hard on her? I really think you are. Surely divorce can't be as cut and dry for everyone as you're making it. In addition to Red Sonya's assertion that it matters since his wife is willingly participating, I will add it also matters that he doesn't want the divorce. I also don't see her participation as eating her cake. If she really wants a divorce, it appears she wants it to be on amicable terms. After all, he has stated they plan to live together for next x number of months, so amicably would be the best approach. But, what if she's confused? What if this is hard on her, and she's not really certain about it? How many guys have said on these boards that their wife threatens divorce but doesn't go through with it? how many men say the same thing? Lots of people want out of their marriage but aren't too quick to file. And, lots of people want out and don't want out at the same time. It can be really hard.

So, I'm asking what if you're being too hard on her? You're trying to ensure that he severs the cord as quickly and definitively as possible and even suggesting he shouldn't be too nice about it. He may be living on hopium, but it also just might work for them. She isn't doing anything so terrible as you make it appear. And why be so adamant that their marriage ends when neither of them has taken any steps in that direction that he told us about. What if his efforts are successful in changing her mind? Wouldn't that be a good thing? I realize you're saying it would be a fool's game, but he insists that it won't be for naught. He realizes he needs to change. He's being reflective because he knows he made some mistakes. He's trying to mature if not only to attempt saving his marriage but also for himself, recognizing it as something he needs to do. He's working on himself and wants to work at saving his marriage.

She might decide to give the marriage another chance, and it surely wouldn't be the first time. People break up and get back together all the time. People want a divorce and then change their mind. It's life and life happens. I think it's terrible that the propensity of respondents on this board is to encourage, goad, and downright bully people into divorcing their spouse. How could it matter that much to the strangers here? It's hardly warranted in every case.

No one has given him the suggestions he came here requesting. Most of us have spent these 7 pages dogging him (or her) out, and he's taken it all very well. I'm still trying to decide on offering suggestions. I don't want to dismiss or offend women like Ms. Hawaii and Red Sonja who have experienced this type of thing and have the emotional scars. I loathe abuse to my core. My belief is there is only one way to handle abuse, and that is to leave/divorce, but I'm having just a little bit of a hard time placing him in the same compartment as the typical abusive man. He's been abusive but it doesn't seem intentional. It seems like these are the lessons he had to learn. There are just so many guys, especially young guys, who don't know how to be a husband or what it means to have a wife. So, it's not hard for me to wonder if his wife is having a hard time and may be a little bit confused or indecisive. She may well not be, I have no way of knowing. I only know that I am.


----------



## farsidejunky

StarFires said:


> Farsidejunkey, what if you're being too hard on her? I really think you are. Surely divorce can't be as cut and dry for everyone as you're making it. In addition to Red Sonya's assertion that it matters since his wife is willingly participating, I will add it also matters that he doesn't want the divorce. I also don't see her participation as eating her cake. If she really wants a divorce, it appears she wants it to be on amicable terms. After all, he has stated they plan to live together for next x number of months, so amicably would be the best approach. But, what if she's confused? What if this is hard on her, and she's not really certain about it? How many guys have said on these boards that their wife threatens divorce but doesn't go through with it? how many men say the same thing? Lots of people want out of their marriage but aren't too quick to file. And, lots of people want out and don't want out at the same time. It can be really hard.
> 
> 
> 
> So, I'm asking what if you're being too hard on her? You're trying to ensure that he severs the cord as quickly and definitively as possible and even suggesting he shouldn't be too nice about it. He may be living on hopium, but it also just might work for them. She isn't doing anything so terrible as you make it appear. And why be so adamant that their marriage ends when neither of them has taken any steps in that direction that he told us about. What if his efforts are successful in changing her mind? Wouldn't that be a good thing? I realize you're saying it would be a fool's game, but he insists that it won't be for naught. He realizes he needs to change. He's being reflective because he knows he made some mistakes. He's trying to mature if not only to attempt saving his marriage but also for himself, recognizing it as something he needs to do. He's working on himself and wants to work at saving his marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> She might decide to give the marriage another chance, and it surely wouldn't be the first time. People break up and get back together all the time. People want a divorce and then change their mind. It's life and life happens. I think it's terrible that the propensity of respondents on this board is to encourage, goad, and downright bully people into divorcing their spouse. How could it matter that much to the strangers here? It's hardly warranted in every case.
> 
> 
> 
> No one has given him the suggestions he came here requesting. Most of us have spent these 7 pages dogging him (or her) out, and he's taken it all very well. I'm still trying to decide on offering suggestions. I don't want to dismiss or offend women like Ms. Hawaii and Red Sonja who have experienced this type of thing and have the emotional scars. I loathe abuse to my core. My belief is there is only one way to handle abuse, and that is to leave/divorce, but I'm having just a little bit of a hard time placing him in the same compartment as the typical abusive man. He's been abusive but it doesn't seem intentional. It seems like these are the lessons he had to learn. There are just so many guys, especially young guys, who don't know how to be a husband or what it means to have a wife. So, it's not hard for me to wonder if his wife is having a hard time and may be a little bit confused or indecisive. She may well not be, I have no way of knowing. I only know that I am.


I can't disagree with what you have said here in the hypothetical.

I know what I would do, but obviously I am not the OP. Only he knows what he has the strength to endure.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## bunnahabhain

Ms. Hawaii said:


> Op, DO NOT say this to your wife.
> 
> I’ve been following your thread, and you remind me so much of my ex.
> 
> He treated me like crap (yelling, calling me stupid, cursing). 2 years ago I had enough and told him I was done.
> 
> He suddenly heard me and wanted to change. He even started IC. I was on the fence for a few months. I think I would have blocked his number if he dared said what I quoted above.
> 
> 
> To me, it shows that you do t get what you did. Honestly, I hope she doesn’t take you back. Sorry!


I understand and I appreciate your honesty.

I don't know acronyms well, what is IC? 

Also, if I may ask, what was the day-to-day experience like with that ex? Did he ever say anything nice? Or was it always negative?


----------



## bunnahabhain

I talked to her today and the idea everything seemed to center around was lack of presence. I asked her if she loved me more as a friend now, and she said as a best friend and still as something more, but less than before. I told her I understood.

We worked through the paperwork together this morning, although I'll have to call the court on Monday to ask for any local county paperwork or other details we need to know about.


----------



## sokillme

bunnahabhain said:


> StarFries,
> 
> I think your analysis right.
> 
> Your first quote is not me. I don't think she's making excuses. I think she's in the right.
> 
> My emotional abuse wasn't constant. I praised her work, I praised the intelligence she showed in it. It was during arguments that I shut down, which were not common.
> 
> I wasn't calling her stupid every day. I can count the number of times I've said on my two hands.
> 
> That's two hands too many. I agree.
> 
> And it wasn't just me belittling her. It was me being in moods and being lost in my own world. Me suffering from anxiety but doing nothing to solve it despite her pushing me to.
> 
> And the emotional abuse went both ways. I'm just not talking about hers because there's nothing I can do about that, I can only control myself and I can only make myself better.
> 
> So, look, I don't intend to defend myself or excuse myself. But just like I don't think it's right for some of the guys on here to be quick to judge my wife, I don't think it's totally fair for you to be quick to judge me, especially when citing things I haven't said (so you would have no idea about, one way or the other).
> 
> If you would like to learn more about the relationship and me, and judge on facts, then please ask me


So you were just distant then?

Maybe you guys were just not a good fit.

*Never mind I just read the video game thing. Like you said there are men that can have a healthy marriage an play video games and men who can't.*

So after reading the whole post you were basically her kid. You let her take care of you like a mommy. Not a good look. No wonder she got tired. 

It's probably over. I think you should accept it for now and work on you.

I'm curious what was your parent's relationship like? What is your father like? 

It's hard for me to understand men who don't get some sort of rush by rising to the challenge of being a husband, having your wife depend on you and being her provider. I mean I get men who don't understand that in the modern world being an emotional provider is part of the deal, we have never been taught that, true. But there are men who just do **** for their wives so they don't have to do it, they provide for them and enjoy it. Or if you are not that assertive you at least plan and work as a team, that is another way to do it. If you see her doing something and you are not doing something else for your relationship you just pitch in. She is folding laundry, you go and help her. That is great reward in that. 

This is really where you failed. First in your thinking. You basically transferred your Mom's role to your wife. It's a mistake when a man treats his wife like his Mom or his Daughter. She is your partner. She may be robin to your batman but she ain't Alfred. Actually I kind of like 45% Catwomen, 55% robin myself. 

Also when you yell and put down your wife you disrespect yourself because you married this women. Why would you not want to build her up, she is probably the person you have the most investment in in your entire life. You should want to help her and build her up. If you have disagreements you should want to solve them and make the team stronger. 

Anyway it may be too far gone. Sadly it happens, everything in life ends, your marriage was going to end too one day. Sounds like you don't have kids and that's good. 

You need to give up and work on you. Go and get IC (Individual Counseling). Read books about marriage. Read websites. Talk to people with good marriages, talk to men who are good husbands whom you admire and more importantly whom their wives admire. Ask their wives why they admire them. Become those men. Think of it like reading about video game levels and how to bet them. Yes there are cheat-codes in marriage to. (This is gaming talk, yes I am a gamer when I get the chance, I'm a guy who can game and have it not impact my marriage.) Finding compromise and learning how to work together in your marriage is like a power up, or getting new armor, it just helps you go farther in your life. 

Some of this is also still thinking about yourself and not your marriage first. In the game of life you marriage is not the player, not you or your wife, it's you both together. You may be the Tank and she may be the healer. That really is how you should think about it. I'm really sorry you didn't get here sooner, we may have been able to help you. 

Marriage is hard work but also very rewarding. The good news is your life is not over, you can start over and still have a great life, but you need to make your focus growing up. You are going to be surprised in how much reward there is in that.

Now that you are done though for your own benefit you need your priorities to change like her's have. You should not be acting like friends at least for now. You are only going to be hurting yourself. Detach and give up, work towards moving on as she has. You priority now should be to protect yourself.


----------



## Marc878

The only time people stay in limbo is if they allow it.

Your best path is to take yourself out of the equation.

Civil but nothing more. Go your own way.

You can't ever control anyone but yourself.

If she wants to move on give it to her. You'll do neither of you any good trying the "lets be friends" game.

No contact or as little as possible are always best in these situations. It'll bring clarity to both sides.


Good luck


----------



## Rubix Cubed

I doubt the "best friends" thing will pay off in the end, but it's possible. If you started to detach it's also possible, maybe more so, she will see what she is about to lose (changes included) and may put forth the effort herself. 
If I was to put odds on what's going on, though, I'd wager she has another guy and is eating up the ego kibbles from both of you.


----------



## Ms. Hawaii

bunnahabhain said:


> I don't know acronyms well, what is IC?




Individual counseling 




bunnahabhain said:


> Also, if I may ask, what was the day-to-day experience like with that ex? Did he ever say anything nice? Or was it always negative?




Of course he said nice things! 

He was amazing when he was in a good mood. However, he was lazy when it came to putting effort in a relationship. He *thought* I wasn’t going to leave him. 

Saying nice things doesn’t cancel being lazy, rude and abusive (not saying you were abusive). I just wanted to make it clear because a lot of men think that just because they are nice 90 % of the time , it excuses the other times when they’re abusive, childish, unreliable, lazy etc... 

I hope it makes sense. I’ve had a long day!


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bunnahabhain said:


> I talked to her today and the idea everything seemed to center around was lack of presence. I asked her if she loved me more as a friend now, and she said as a best friend and still as something more, but less than before. I told her I understood.
> 
> We worked through the paperwork together this morning, although I'll have to call the court on Monday to ask for any local county paperwork or other details we need to know about.


I just do not understand why you helping her divorce you? Do you think she is going to change her mind before hand? 

I read your thread and it appears she is mollifying you for the time being while expediting the divorce as quickly as possible, She even has you doing the leg work. 

She does not require your help, assistance or permission in divorcing you. She can and could divorce you with or without your cooperation. 

She wants the divorce, You want a second chance I think. So why are you helping her? I can understand cooperating to a point as in keeping costs down but actively helping her?


----------



## sunsetmist

Do you look her in the eye, hold her face, and say, "Don't give up on me?"

FYI:
AAMOF = as a matter of fact
AP = Affair Partner
ASAP = as soon as possible
b/c = because
BAK = back at keyboard
BBFN = bye bye for now
BBL = be back later
BBS = be back soon
BF = boyfriend or best friend
BFN = bye for now
BH = Betrayed Husband
BIL = brother-in-law
BK = back
BRB = be right back
BRBGGP = be right back gotta go potty
BS = Betrayed Spouse 
BSC = Bat sh*t crazy
BTDT = been there, done that
BTW = by the way
BW = Betrayed Wife
CBTB = can’t believe the bulls***
CRAFT = can't remember a fricking thing
CRS = can't remember stuff (or use your imagination for S)
CSA = Childhood Sexual Abuse
CU = see you
CUL8R = see you later
CWIM = see what I mean
CYA = see ya
DB = dear boyfriend
DC = dear child
DD = dear daughter
D-Day = divorce day -or- affair Discovery Day
DF = dear fiancée
DG = dear girlfriend
DH = dear husband
DS = dear son
DSD = dear stepdaughter
DSS = dear stepson
DW = dear wife
EA = emotional affair
exH = ex husband
exW = ex wife
FIL = father-in-law
FOO = Family of Origin
FTR = for the record
FWH = former wayward husband
FWIW = for what it's worth
FWW = former wayward wife
FYI = for your information
GF = girlfriend
GMTA = great minds think alike
GNO = Girls Night Out
GP = general practitioner
GTG = got to go
HD = High drive (sexual)
HTH = HTH hope this helps
IBRB = I’ll be right back
IC = Individual counseling 
IDK = I don't know
IIWY = if I were you
IIRC = if I recall correctly
ILYNILWYA = "I love you, not in love with you anymore." 
IMHO = in my humble opinion
IMNSHO = in my not so humble opinion
IMO = in my opinion
ISSF = I’m so sexually frustrated
J/J = just joking
J/K = just kidding
KISA = Knight in Shining Armor
KWIM = know what I mean
LD = low drive (sexual drive)
LMAO = laughing my ass off
LOL = laughing out loud
LOL = laughing out loud
LOLROF = laughing out load, rolling on floor
LTNS = long time no see
MC = marriage counseling
MIL = mother-in-law
MLC = mid-life crisis
MYOB = mind your own business
NC = No Contact
NDE = near death experience 
NE = any
NMS = not my style
NMSAA = not my style at all
NP = no problem
OM = other man
OMG = oh my gosh
ONS = one night stand
OP = original poster
OSF = opposite Sex Friends
OT = off topic
OTOH = on the other hand
OW = other woman
PA = physical affair
PA = (sometimes) passive aggressive
PIV = penis in vagina referring to "traditional" sex
PM = private message
POV = POV point of view
PP = previous poster
PUA = Pick Up Artist
ROF = rolling on floor
ROFL = rolling on floor laughing
ROFLMAO = rolling on floor laughing my a** off
ROFLOL = rolling on floor laughing out loud
ROTF = rolling on the floor
SAHD = stay-at-home dad
SAHM = stay-at-home mom
SAHP = stay-at-home parent
SEP = somebody else’s problem 
SIL = sister-in-law
SNAFU = situation normal all fouled up
SO = significant other
SOL = sh** out of luck
SOS = same old stuff (or use you imagination)
STBX = soon to be ex
SWMBO = She Who Must Be Obeyed
TAM = Talk About Marriage
T/J = thread jack
TIA = thanks in advance
TMI = too much information
TOM = the other man
TOW = the other woman
TTFN = tata for now
TTYL = talk to you later
UR = your or you're
VAR = voice activated recorder
W/E = whatever
WAH = work at home
WAW = Walk Away Wife
WB = welcome back
WH = Wayward Husband
WOH = work out of the home
WS = Wayward Spouse
WTG = way to go
WW = Wayward Wife
YW = your welcome
YMMV = your mileage (opinion) may vary


----------



## bunnahabhain

Ms. Hawaii said:


> Saying nice things doesn’t cancel being lazy, rude and abusive (not saying you were abusive). I just wanted to make it clear because a lot of men think that just because they are nice 90 % of the time , it excuses the other times when they’re abusive, childish, unreliable, lazy etc...
> 
> I hope it makes sense. I’ve had a long day!



I can understand that.

Insulting someone is absolutely unacceptable.

Let me ask you. Sometimes both sides can be unintentionally insulting. For example, maybe as far as a year ago I started to do more chores. I would vacuum, put away my clothes, wash the dishes, put them away, etc. For a while, I wasn't doing this stuff before she got home, so we would put the dishes away together. If I couldn't remember where something went -- which, yes, I can see how it would be annoying to tell me _again_ -- she'd sometimes just get super frustrated and yell at me.

We are both people who don't like to address small things that build up into big things.

I have been getting better at it because of my career, especially in a manager role.

But we were not good at this at home.

What would have been a better way to approach an unintentional insult with her that could have immediately addressed that?


----------



## bunnahabhain

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> I just do not understand why you helping her divorce you? Do you think she is going to change her mind before hand?
> 
> I read your thread and it appears she is mollifying you for the time being while expediting the divorce as quickly as possible, She even has you doing the leg work.
> 
> She does not require your help, assistance or permission in divorcing you. She can and could divorce you with or without your cooperation.
> 
> She wants the divorce, You want a second chance I think. So why are you helping her? I can understand cooperating to a point as in keeping costs down but actively helping her?


She asked for my help to read all the instructions and make sure she was filling out the forms right.

I mean, it does not feel good when I do it. At the same time, sitting down and doing that has been a great opportunity to talk about things that I feel will help me grow.


----------



## bunnahabhain

sunsetmist said:


> Do you look her in the eye, hold her face, and say, "Don't give up on me?"


Similar intimate moments.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

bunnahabhain said:


> She asked for my help to read all the instructions and make sure she was filling out the forms right.
> 
> I mean, it does not feel good when I do it. At the same time, sitting down and doing that has been a great opportunity to talk about things that I feel will help me grow.


So for in exchange for holding her hand filling out documents while she fires you as her husband you get the privilege of listening to her explain and elaborate why you sucked as a husband?

You think that will make you 'grow' as a better person? 

Is it possible she is a lousy wife? That everything that comes out of her mouth is crap which you have accepted as normal as you hold her up so high on a pedestal. 

Sorry but asking for your help to divorce you is actually insulting and cruel. Makes me actually wonder just what were the dynamics of your marriage. You have her on this pedestal as a long suffering wife who has to leave you as you were a intolerable miserable husband

But she yells at you for silly things and more. Then asks for your help in filling out documents so she does not wastes her time in filling in error so she can be out of the marriage quicker.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

You stated the following at the beginning of the thread: 

"she's changing and wants to try things out on her own, and that she can't trust me and wait any longer."

How about she can try divorcing you on her own and taking some responsibility for her own marriage? She should own that 'change' to start. 

Seems she wants out because she can't trust you but trusts you enough to fill out the papers and use your own time to deal with the courthouse tomorrow.

Dude, seriously. Stop being a doormat. She wants out, she wants a change, she does not 'trust' you? 

Then she can act like a grown responsible adult and seek advice from those she trusts (like the guy I think she has on the side) and do her own leg work and make her own mistakes and waste her own time and pay for it. 

Like the rest of us. That's what grown responsible adults do.


----------



## bunnahabhain

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> So for in exchange for holding her hand filling out documents while she fires you as her husband you get the privilege of listening to her explain and elaborate why you sucked as a husband?
> 
> You think that will make you 'grow' as a better person?
> 
> Is it possible she is a lousy wife? That everything that comes out of her mouth is crap which you have accepted as normal as you hold her up so high on a pedestal.
> 
> Sorry but asking for your help to divorce you is actually insulting and cruel. Makes me actually wonder just what were the dynamics of your marriage. You have her on this pedestal as a long suffering wife who has to leave you as you were a intolerable miserable husband
> 
> But she yells at you for silly things and more. Then asks for your help in filling out documents so she does not wastes her time in filling in error so she can be out of the marriage quicker.


She definitely was not always nice.

That being said, don't give me too much credit. Everything I've said so far is true and objective.

She has faults, I have faults.

But I can't focus on her faults. I pretty much accept the divorce, although I don't know if it's because we're still in a sort of limbo or because I am truly coming to terms with it. I figure, whatever her status as a wife is, I need to clean my own house before I can judge another's. And she is really the only person who can really tell me how I made her feel.


----------



## Chaparral

Chaparral said:


> Go through house with a fine tooth comb. Look for new underwear you have never seen her wear. Gifts you didn’t buy. A burner phone etc. If she doesn’t go out much or get home late or leave early it could be a workplace affair.
> 
> Has she responded to you new actions and PS4 dump?
> 
> If you want to know how she really feels you can put a Sony voice activated recorder in her car securely velcroed under the seat. Cheaters like to talk in the car as a safe zone. They will also talk to friends about what is going on and Google how to track your router. You may also want to gps her car.


Have you done any of this?


----------



## Chaparral

The more you post it simply doesn’t sound like the two of you are that much different. As a matter of fact it sounds like she can also get aggravated and dish it out.

Did you say she goes out without you or not?


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## OnTheFly

Assuming she's not cheating, and she's telling the truth about why she locked the phone (ie. conversations regarding divorce)......then the conversations are filled with lies. She's rewriting history with her friends and family, so that she'll be viewed as the innocent one. It's taken a few pages and some introspective posts from you, but Chaparrel is right, you guys are similar. It's not easy for a woman to say to her Mom that she's equally to blame for the problems and she's just giving up while the guy tries everything in his power to save the marriage.

Anyway, that's if she isn't cheating. I make no assumptions regarding that, except to say, there's a fellow here, Bobert, who also couldn't fathom his wife cheating....she was just a little bit ''distant''. He got offended by even the mere suggestion of the accusation.........except the signs.....the red flags,......the odd behaviour. His life imploded in unimaginable ways when he scratched the surface. I'm not saying your wife is Bobert's wife. I'm saying anyone is capable of anything.

I suspect your wife is having an "Eat, Pray, Love Under the Tuscan Sun" type episode. Frivorcing (frivolous divorce) at her age is not a good move. The stats aren't kind to women like this. You'll be fine, most likely, but years from now she'll deeply regret it. 

Watch some MGTOW vids on youtube, become familiar with the real male/female dynamic (you seem naive), better yourself, work out. I believe it's possible to improve, you've shown that, whether she deserves the new you is another question.


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## turnera

bunnahabhain said:


> I will try to raise my awareness and see if I can discover truth there.
> 
> Regarding the emotional abuse, yes I did belittle her. I have called her stupid. I am a reader and a very intellectual person and I get frustrated easily when people "aren't at my level," whatever that means. I've been working on my arrogance there. (Edit: Also, this isn't like an every day thing. I can count the number of times I've said it on my hands, which doesn't make it okay. We talked every day. Texted each other, chatted each other. There was more positive talk than negative. I didn't come home, stonewall her, and call her stupid on the fly.)
> 
> I also let her iron my clothes, wash them, clean the house (we did get someone to come every two weeks), walk the dog, clean the windows, tile the floor (I helped break up the old tile and clear the way, but once the tiling started she did most of the work), etc. (Edit: To clarify this poorly written paragraph. I didn't gift these things to her. I let her do it while I didn't do anything, I let her take responsibility I should have owned up to. I don't mean to imply that these were good things.)
> 
> I have an addiction to video games. They consume me.
> 
> I got rid of my PS4. Since I did, I've been working out every day, doing things around the house, going out more with friends and co-workers. It was the best decision I've ever made, whether or not the marriage is saved.
> 
> I would play my ps4 while she worked.
> 
> And then I wouldn't even show my gratitude another way.
> 
> I've very introverted. It's hard for me to be vulnerable. When I try, I come off as fake because I hold back my emotion. When I show my emotion I go to 100. Not an excuse, just a challenge I accept and have to overcome and know that it has impacted my marriage negatively.
> 
> The reasons for the divorce are plain. And I understand her lack of trust.


No offense, but I don't see much reason for her to give you a second chance. Honestly, what value do you bring?


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## turnera

bunnahabhain said:


> Maybe this is the wrong question to ask, and if I may ask you, what to you would prove commitment? Like others have said, reversion is common. That is her main complaint, that I will revert. What would tell you that, at the very least, the probability of reversion is less?


If I were her, I would want to see you move out and, from ANOTHER HOUSE, spend the next 12 months proving that you are a different person. ONE 'stupid' comment and you'd never see my face again. You would be fixing the house, you would be putting as much effort into making MY life easier as she put into making yours easier all these years. And you would do it consistently for 12 months. And only then would I consider dating you again.


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## turnera

bunnahabhain said:


> And it wasn't just me belittling her. It was me being in moods and being lost in my own world. Me suffering from anxiety but doing nothing to solve it despite her pushing me to.


Not to mention being OBSESSED with video games, as you said. As the wife of a man who 'lets' me do 99% of all the housework and almost never takes care of anything the house needs, I would be FURIOUS if he sat on a couch playing games while I took care of him after working a full-time job. It's bad enough that he won't help, but to be spending his time playing a game? Oh hell no. 

What are you doing to address this?


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## turnera

bunnahabhain said:


> The manly man thing and video games doesn't resonate with me because this isn't the 1970s.
> 
> 
> My issue is not that I play video games and therefore am not a manly man, my issue is that I play video games and they consume me.


Again, you're missing the point. Maybe you think that when we see manly man, we mean some dude chugging beers and crushing them on his forehead. Manly man means you accept the role of leader of your marriage where its well-being trumps your own personal interests. A manly man marries, knowing his job is to put his wife first and hopes that she will do the same. He doesn't accept her doing the same and then stop doing his half just because she lets him. 

Your issue isn't that your video games consume you. Your issue is that you let your wife assume the role of your mommy.


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## turnera

bunnahabhain said:


> I can understand that.
> 
> Insulting someone is absolutely unacceptable.
> 
> Let me ask you. Sometimes both sides can be unintentionally insulting. For example, maybe as far as a year ago I started to do more chores. I would vacuum, put away my clothes, wash the dishes, put them away, etc. For a while, I wasn't doing this stuff before she got home, so we would put the dishes away together. If I couldn't remember where something went -- which, yes, I can see how it would be annoying to tell me _again_ -- she'd sometimes just get super frustrated and yell at me.
> 
> We are both people who don't like to address small things that build up into big things.
> 
> I have been getting better at it because of my career, especially in a manager role.
> 
> But we were not good at this at home.
> 
> What would have been a better way to approach an unintentional insult with her that could have immediately addressed that?


IME, the best way to address such things is with humor. "Honey, I'm happy to drink soup out of a coffee cup, so I have a hard time even remembering we HAVE bowls, let alone where to put them! Have patience with me, ok?!" Getting both of you to laugh at something puts you both on the same team. I think she'd enjoy some laughter.


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## turnera

Sorry for the onslaught, just found this thread. Anyway, here's my take. She still loves you, she's just fed up being your mom. She's fed up with you not desiring her enough sexually to pursue her; 35%? Ye gads. She's fed up being taken for granted. Unless she's cheating or has her eye on someone else, she just doesn't see benefit to staying with you. So maybe she'll let you show her the benefits. 

First assignment: read the book His Needs Her Needs. It will explain a LOT.

One of the main takeaways from the book is what I like to call the Love Bucket. You start out in love with each other. Her love bucket is full to the brim of the loving things you did for her when you were dating; she was happy. Then you forgot her birthday (just an example); it poked a little hole in that bucket of hers, and a little of the love she felt for you leaked out the hole. Then you called her stupid in anger; another hole, more leakage. Not filled to the brim anymore. Then you found video games and, instead of being present with her and loving on her and ravishing her in bed, your new 'honey' was your computer - you were no longer FILLING her bucket with loving. And at the same time, that video habit poked a HUGE HOLE, not just a tiny one, in her love bucket. Now love is flowing out of the bucket faster than it can be refilled - if you were even trying to fill it.

By the time a woman calls it quits, that bucket is damn near empty. She's put up with a lot, asked, complained, suffered, until there's just nothing to love anymore.

Can it be repaired? Possibly. But those holes are gonna take a hell of a lot of putty to get plugged (your newfound knowledge and actions), let alone let the bucket get filled again. Now, if she keeps that bucket around and lets you near it, you just might be able to make some adjustments, might let a little bit of love get poured back in. Or she may just throw it away and leave. Not up to you. But that shouldn't stop you from trying, if you really love her. And, very often, that's what the woman's waiting for - to see if you DO try.

Anyway, read HNHN, it will make much more sense.


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## bunnahabhain

Chaparral said:


> The more you post it simply doesn’t sound like the two of you are that much different. As a matter of fact it sounds like she can also get aggravated and dish it out.
> 
> Did you say she goes out without you or not?


Occasionally. She tells me where and with who, usually, and will talk about it when she gets home.

She has always been getting home before I go to sleep.

We spent Saturday together. The next day she went to hang out with a couple that we both used to hang out with but cut ties with me (which is okay).

This is kind of weird to say, but we have started to have sex again.

It has not affected her decision to continue with the divorce.



turnera said:


> ...


If you don't mind, I'll keep my response all in one place.

Thank you for your thoughts. I do deeply appreciate them.

You ask, "Honestly, what value do you bring?"

I make a good income with good prospects to make even more. I make $80,000/yr. and have made $10,000/yr. increases every year. Every employer I have ever had has said they would hire me back, just send them an email. This includes, ironically, one of the biggest gurus on love and relationships.

I love her unquestioningly. I have not shown it and I realize that, and I am doing everything I can to prove that I do. Even if it's too late, I still am compelled to show it.

I share the same home and family values. We have bought a house together. We have the same tastes, the same ideas.

I know this isn't enough, but I satisfy her sexually. I'm not like a master but there must be some sort of connection between us because I satisfy her in the complete sense and I have always been very cognizant of making sure I did.

You asked, "What are you doing to address this?"

Since she asked for divorce, I have:

- Worked out every day.
- Joined an over 30 soccer league.
- Done my laundry and hers (she reciprocates), folded my laundry and hers, ironed my clothes.
- Threw out my video games. Every single one of them. Sold my consoles.
- She had ADHD and was cleaning the cabinets out of boredom, so I stopped what I was doing and helped her clean them. She got tired and said we'd finish the cabinets another day. I finished them myself before she came home from work.
- Any spill, any mess I made, I clean. Not in a haphazard way, but completely.
- I cook my own meals, prepare my own lunches.
- I cook for her. I am from Spain, so I made paella. I am making paella again for Valentine's Day. I'm learning new recipes, both so I know how to treat myself well if I must live single and to treat her if I, by some miracle, am lucky enough for her to give me a last chance.
- I go out and weed the yard, keep it well kept (putatively, to make sure we can sell the house at the highest possible market price).
- See a therapist.
- Take care of the dog, feed her and walk her.
- Made list of everything she loves and have already prepared ideas for things we can do together that connect with both her and myself.
- I find a way each and every day to express and communicate my love and intentions. Even if it doesn't do anything in the end, it is teaching me to be more expressive and open about my love, allowing me to focus my energy on doing good rather than doing bad.
- I make the bed every single day and fold her pajamas by her pillow.
- I make sure to constantly be AWARE of things that need to be done. I work hard not to be asked, but rather anticipate.

I do love her.

I might be stupid and naive, but I truly believe she is my soul mate.

I showed it for a long time and when I was 27 I bought a console and lost sight of it.

Whether she takes me back or not, I'm happy doing these things. I have hope and maybe I'll get crushed. It's okay, I'll survive.


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## turnera

Nice list. I didn't see anything on there about you asking her what would make HER happy. Are you going to therapy WITH her so she can tell the MC what's wrong and you can hear it? Have you asked her about her goals in life and discussed whether you're aiding her in achieving them? I ask because she talks like she wants to 'try on' being an adult on her own. 

That's actually pretty common for a woman to reach that point in mid 20s-mid 30s. They go from dad to husband and are continuing to mature and form her own opinions and belief in her own ability (not needing a man to take care of her); many such women start to feel stifled and held back. I'm going to guess that she might want some opportunities to do more adultlike things, feel like she's capable and doesn't need your oversight or opinion. Sometimes I recommend letting the woman plan the next vacation all on her own. Things like that.

Other thought - rather than you anticipating what she MIGHT like you to do, better to ask her her thoughts on that. Become a team again, not a KISA. That's just as bad as a couch potato.


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## Chaparral

Well, you have gone over board it sounds like. That’s called the pick me dance and it has never been successful for anyone here. 

If I am understanding you, it sounds like you are doing much more than her around the house. This makes you look like the butler, maid, and cook. That’s not attractive either.

Did you read any of the books?


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## bunnahabhain

turnera said:


> Nice list. I didn't see anything on there about you asking her what would make HER happy. Are you going to therapy WITH her so she can tell the MC what's wrong and you can hear it? Have you asked her about her goals in life and discussed whether you're aiding her in achieving them? I ask because she talks like she wants to 'try on' being an adult on her own.
> 
> That's actually pretty common for a woman to reach that point in mid 20s-mid 30s. They go from dad to husband and are continuing to mature and form her own opinions and belief in her own ability (not needing a man to take care of her); many such women start to feel stifled and held back. I'm going to guess that she might want some opportunities to do more adultlike things, feel like she's capable and doesn't need your oversight or opinion. Sometimes I recommend letting the woman plan the next vacation all on her own. Things like that.
> 
> Other thought - rather than you anticipating what she MIGHT like you to do, better to ask her her thoughts on that. Become a team again, not a KISA. That's just as bad as a couch potato.


I can see that.

We've talked a lot on what her issues with me are. I have tried to focus my efforts that way.

I don't force my opinion on her too much. She has a lot of liberty in doing what she likes. I've never asked her to cancel plans or anything like that.

When I see her in the kitchen or doing something in the house, I'll ask if there's anything she needs help with or anything I can do.

I make conversation and validate her, giving advice if she asks for it or I ask her if I can give my two cents.

Edit: She agreed to see a therapist with me, as well.


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## bunnahabhain

Chaparral said:


> Well, you have gone over board it sounds like. That’s called the pick me dance and it has never been successful for anyone here.
> 
> If I am understanding you, it sounds like you are doing much more than her around the house. This makes you look like the butler, maid, and cook. That’s not attractive either.
> 
> Did you read any of the books?


I have read a number of books and continuously order more.

She helps. For example, I was out with buddies on Friday so she did the laundry.

Last night, I was meal prepping for the week and she came and helped me make the rice, and showed me some other things.

So our roles haven't switched, if that makes sense.

I've just been more proactive.

Edit: I try to walk a line of doing these things without it being to impress her. I do it for myself and I show that I am also going to go out and have fun on my own.


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