# What is love to a woman?



## father-of-3 (Apr 25, 2010)

I am in a confusing situation where my wife whom I still love very much after nine years of marriage informed me that she no longer loves me. "I care for you" were the words. But I followed with directly asking if she still loves me and the answer was no.

This week she curtly let me know that she needs love and not sex. This took me a bit by surprise. For one, I cannot remember having anything resembling reliable sex over the past 3 years. But more surprisingly, I just cannot grasp the notion of me not providing her with love. I can only conclude that my love compass is way off. So I am hoping some ladies out there can pin point for me the gaps in my understanding of what love is. Here are things that I routinely do for my wife and the repeated responses I receive in return.

Help out around the house (cooking, shopping, cleaning, laundry, fix-ups, yard work, dishes, appointments, etc...) -- response generally is indifference / no vocallization

Help with the kids (dinner, homework, YMCA, weekend treks, ...) -- response usually is contention, as if I am stepping onto her territory

Encourage & support her to enjoy activities like girl's night out, hiking, biking, camping with play group friends -- response is a verbal "thanks"

Maintain a great relationship with her in-laws, whom I really like and enjoy spending time with (like camping, or coming over for week end BBQ's) -- no response, almost like it never happens

Single income household, with mutual agreement/desire for her to be a stay at home mom to provide strong nurturing for our children. I have never played the "I make the money card" and routinely express my appreciation for all that she does for the kids. -- some response, generally content but also has mentioned feeling trapped in her life. When pressed if overwhelmed, the reply was a no.

Workwise, come home early to help out. Keep pressures of work out of the home as much as possible. Take adhoc times off to cover her and kids' appointments. No response, nor any encouragement.

Money wise, I take a hit every month going deeper into debt. My wife likes to buy quality things, like $250 swim suites. I cringe with each (and every such purchase) but don't attack her for it. I do ask that she help to try the budget somewhat balanced. Response is always "I know... we need to spend less." Mind you I earn a 6-figure salary and have about 5 t-shirts and a drawer of clothes that most people would donate to Good Will.

Courtship-wise, I routinely complement her on trying to stay fit, on her taste in clothes, and on how she handles herself in situations. -- response, not even a thank you. Just as if it was not said at all.

Intimacy just does not exist. I casually touch her hand, only to have her pull it away. I'll do things like ask her if I can give her a kiss while playing miniature golf, only to be rejected with an uh-eh. Until last month, I could eventually nag my way into sex in the bedroom maybe once or twice a month, but now she has simply stated that she is "not interested in being intimate".

- Thanks in advance


----------



## father-of-3 (Apr 25, 2010)

I thought that spice might have been it, and like many dead ends have found out otherwise. Offers of massages, spontaneous dinner reservations, and simple things like an embrace just because all have ended in rejections. The replies are all too common... it's past 10pm, I'm really tired, I'm not comfortable holding hands in public. This is the same wife that would go at it with me on the couch or in a sauna. Flowers just because get shot down ironically because they cost soooo much. It seems to me more of an almost selfishness where enough is never enough and by constantly shifting the target, a spouse can never hit it. Is it more time to one self, more freedom to go out, more time together, ... always something other than what was just improved. I guess that I am really not too comfortable with the tactic that I am seeing being taken. But maybe that is just the male take on it.


----------



## Zulu (Apr 16, 2010)

That all does mean a lot, in the beginning, but they soon get used to it and then it stops meaning anything, I am in the same same boat.

You end up doing or trying to do more and more to win their love approval, but it just seems to push them even further away till they are so far removed, they are just not interested in yo anymore.

The "I do not love you anymore", it is usually to comfort their conscience that it is now OK to look elsewhere or to start or have an affair, because they have told you that. It is mean.

You are just not meeting their needs, emotional, physical, intelectual and the such like and they have probably already found someone that is now fulfilling their needs...

I do not know what to tell you, because even from my expirience, it is ripping me sideways, but am hanging in there, and trying to be Calm, Consistent and and Constant and see where that tkes me. Also trying to get out more and even though I am not really having much fun, it will come, and then your attitude and outlook will change and then she may see you again as the person she liked.... well this is what I am sort of hoping for... and hope for your sake as well.

All the best man...

BTW, downundergal, are you in Aus...?


----------



## zeen (Jul 19, 2010)

omg! i would love to hav a husband tat amazing!!! 
im clueless why ure wife would behave tat way... Maybe u shud fidn out if there is any1 else in her life


----------



## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

Honestly, the things you describe pretty much cover it from me. My boyfriend does everything he can to support me and my kids, financially, emotionally, and mentally. Having him express concern over whether or not I'm overwhelmed, want to go out, need help, etc. can be enough, even if I turn down his offers of help. Being touched, for me, is a big way he can show his love for me. Holding my hand, holding me, kissing me, rubbing my back or my shoulders. Sex itself can be a way of expressing our love, but it's not the only or the most important way. 

Here's the thing, though: if someone doesn't love you, it really doesn't matter how they see love or how they want it expressed, or what you do to express it. If they don't love you, you could do anything and everything for them and it just won't matter to them. 

I don't know what's going on with her, but she's told you she doesn't love you. I would talk to her and see if she's willing to go to marriage counseling to try to salvage what's left of your marriage. If she's not, there may be nothing you can do. If she is, then this issue is a great place to start with the counselor. Explain to him/her what you do and what her response is, and then she can explain her side. The counselor can help both of you express yourselves verbally and get to the bottom of what's going on here.


----------



## Zulu (Apr 16, 2010)

downundergal said:


> I'm in Sydney. The best city in the world!


I agree, it is beautiful, the best..... mmmm, not so sure about that...

The problem is that us guys try and do toooo dam much... and we give or wives the space to go and do all these things and then we wonder why..... 

My wife used to get coffee in bed every morning.
I used to drop and collect the kids at school.
I did the shopping
I made the food EVERY night
I did the dishes and cleaned the kitchen

Did all of the above for ever, and not just when I felt the marriage was in trouble...

Now from a guys point of view, this should make her want to fall down in bed offering "favours".... no ways, it just alienates them... well this is how it seemed from my point of view. Well she may have wanted me to say how good she looked or the such like, and that would have made her feel MUCH MUCH better than trying to have her love me for the things that I was doing....


----------



## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

downundergal said:


> Maybe the only thing any of us can do is work on ourselves, be happy in our own heads, and let everyone else figure out their own issues.
> 
> I mean, what else can we do?


thats where i'm at. i cant help anyone who wont help themself


----------



## 2Daughters (May 13, 2010)

Those types of people are just unhappy with themselves, always WANTING someone else to make them happy, It really is sad those who need others to make them feel happy, they will never be until they like themselves and are comfortable with themselves...some of you have gone above and beyond trying to make your wives or husbands happy:scratchhead:..bottomline is, they don't know what happy is..and it sucks for you because what they seek, doesn't exist...I never bought my wife anything or remembered dates or stuff like that and she was still ungrateful..and she is still unhappy on her own:scratchhead:..so what is love to a woman?...who cares!


----------



## ddindiana (May 24, 2010)

Thank you 2daughters, I totally agree.


----------



## mother-of-one (Jul 20, 2010)

Father of 3, I truly feel for you, I am going through the exact same thing. I too, have been recently told by my husband of six years that he no longer loves me, but merely cares for me. He thinks I'm a 'great mother' and 'great wife' but he no longer loves me....

I think back and I feel partly to blame for this. I've always catered my whole life to him and to my child and never focused on myself (Isn't that what marriage is all about?!). I've always been so predictable and my life has become so routine. It gets very dull.

I truly feel that he has found someone else... someone who buys the expensive clothes, gets nails and hair done regularly and is more unpredictable....someone with a spark and not someone who reminds him to take the trash out every week.

My marriage I think is already on the downhill, he actually moved out a week ago, but yours might be salvaged. Take the advice that was given to you by another person. Focus on yourself... have your 'guys night out', go to the gym, start making plans without her, be less predictable and less attentive to her, do something you've been wanting to do but keep puting off.... keep busy.

In other words, back off from her and give her space (If you keep nagging or smothering her, it will just upset her more.) Make her realize that she may lose one of the best things in her life because of her mere foolishness. She's taking you for granted because maybe you have put her on a pedestal (like I did with my husband) and thinks she's a better person than you. Prove her otherwise, she is nothing without you.

Also, pray. I've been really down lately and praying, as well as friends and family are the only things that have helped me.

I've done the snooping and it doesn't make me feel any better. But if you suspect... do it.... just don't get caught and be prepared for whatever you may find. If you do find something, what will you do? You are already unhappy, why make things worse.

Focus on YOU and either she'll come around, or you'll be ready for someone else!

Hope this helps!


----------



## kgall6268 (Jun 23, 2010)

father-of-3 said:


> I am in a confusing situation where my wife whom I still love very much after nine years of marriage informed me that she no longer loves me. "I care for you" were the words. But I followed with directly asking if she still loves me and the answer was no.
> 
> This week she curtly let me know that she needs love and not sex. This took me a bit by surprise. For one, I cannot remember having anything resembling reliable sex over the past 3 years. But more surprisingly, I just cannot grasp the notion of me not providing her with love. I can only conclude that my love compass is way off. So I am hoping some ladies out there can pin point for me the gaps in my understanding of what love is. Here are things that I routinely do for my wife and the repeated responses I receive in return.
> 
> ...


If you are truely doing everything you know to do and she doesn't want to work on it. Give her space; a lot of space like separation. She'll either realize what she had or you will realize she really wants to move on. Sometimes shaking things up, makes a person realize what they are loosing. Easier said than done, I know.


----------



## jhef83 (Jun 7, 2010)

My wife has done all the above. She still tells me loves me though. But it's just our goodbye thing. Ingrained after 18 yrs. I've been spending the last 2 weeks cleaning our house while she's been on a 2 week trip with her side of the family. I wasn't invited although she did know beforehand I really didn't want to go. After reading this post I'm kind of wondering what to say to her if she thanks me for cleaning. Any suggestions? Like you I've been doing housework for a long time. The kitchen is mine but it's usually the only clean room. I like a clean house. She could sit in front of the TV while the walls are falling down I think. It's surprising how filthy house keepers some women can be. I'm kind of regretting cleaning the place now, maybe I should dirty it back up. I kind of went all out I mean I cleaned walls and all. I even cleaned the inside of the washing machine. Some of us guys are just too needy and go all out for a little appreciation.


----------



## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

> I just wish I knew how to help. Once us girls get something into our heads, it can be very hard to shake. The only thing I can suggest is giving your wife the same treatment she's giving you. Give her plenty of space. Ignore her. Go out without her and have some fun. Act like you don't care anymore that she wants out. If she is just in the middle of some sort of crisis and truly doesn't want to leave, see how quickly the fear of losing you jolts her back to her old self.


I think this is probably the best advice. A few thoughts:

Women generally check out of a relationship emotionally well before they do physically. So her ambivalence is a sign she's already out of it. It may not have anything to do with you, it could be her dissatisfaction at being a stay at home mom, her own need for the kind of excitement you can't give her after the familiarity of a long term relationship. Who knows. She seems uninterested in fixing things.

Also, the advice to look out for an affair is sound. She's SUPER vulnerable to the attentions of another man right now. If she's not in an affair, she'd be ripe for the picking from a predatory man. 

I'd confront her in a gentle way. Something like, "It feels to me that you are checking out of this relationship. I'm going to be making some changes in myself, and I'd like for this to work. I'd like for you to be on board and I think we can create the kind of passionate marriage we both want. Either way I plan on having more fun in my life." Then leave it at that and make it your god d*mn MISSION to have fun. Plan fun things and invite her to come. If she doesn't then you do them anyway. 

Oh, and if you discover she's having an affair, then buckle in because it's going to be a brutal ride for you. Sorry to say it.


----------



## father-of-3 (Apr 25, 2010)

Thanks for all of your thoughts. I knew I would receive some that would bruise a little and others that would be theraputic. More self time is what I am starting with first. Too long has gone by since I have set aside time for me -- I am a sacrificer by nature and that only has return early in relationships apparently. I've already treated myself for a relaxing massage and a movie is in the works in the next days to come. I'm planning on going to see "Inception".


----------



## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Good for you. you may also want to read a book called "No More Mr Nice Guy". It's about the "nice guy" syndrome, and how those of us that 'sacrifice' for others, and just 'nice guys' really have a hidden agenda, that's steeped in passive aggression. Not sure if it's relevant, but a good read.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Are you willing to have conflict in order to actually make your marriage better? If so, you CAN make your marriage better, if not your marriage will slowly spiral into the drain. 

If you ARE willing to have conflict, which is going to feel VERY uncomfortable to you at first, I can give you some very specific steps to take. If not, I have no way to help you. 

By the way - I have a small but steady amount of civilized conflict (all verbal - no screaming - no cursing - no hateful personal attacks) with my W. I also have a marriage that is super loving and super sexual, affectionate, playful and fun. 

I am going to warn you - you have slowly turned your wife into a very selfish person who is also an emotional bully (even though that is not obvious to you at this point). She is going to FREAK if you begin truly enforcing some personal boundaries like insisting she stay within a budget. But she will ONLY freak for a couple of months if you stay firm. And after that things will improve. 

No offence but "going to the movies" while she continues to slowly spend you into bankruptcy is not what I mean by enforcing your boundaries. 



father-of-3 said:


> Thanks for all of your thoughts. I knew I would receive some that would bruise a little and others that would be theraputic. More self time is what I am starting with first. Too long has gone by since I have set aside time for me -- I am a sacrificer by nature and that only has return early in relationships apparently. I've already treated myself for a relaxing massage and a movie is in the works in the next days to come. I'm planning on going to see "Inception".


----------



## father-of-3 (Apr 25, 2010)

I think you are onto something. Some of the steps I have already taken like setting aside time to go to the gym and following up with it was at first met with no less than a surprised / annoyed gasp from my wife. It would seem that me having not taken a firm and steady stand on issues like time management/sharing, finances, and clear expectations of what and how often things go on in the bedroom have simply left her to do as she pleases. I am now realizing that this has as you hinted emboldened my wife to cross way too far towards the bitter, self-entitlement, and non-reciprocating side. Presently she does not see an issue with not part-taking in any form of give and take. The take part seems to be all good, but that leaves the other party starved. I am trying to speak to her in her love language, which is to complement her and to throw new and fresh opportunities to do things her way. But in return I am getting complete silence and inaction. What makes it hard is that my wife does not like confrontation. That is straight from her lips. When asked if she could sit down with me from day to day and share anything that is bothering her, she tells me that she is not comfortable doing that because she feels that is confrontational and would only bring it up if it REALLY bothered her -- i.e. sit on it until a major flare up takes place. This I find really unhealthy for any marriage because there is little room to learn gently along the way from explosive verbal arguments. 

Your notion is very intriguing because I think back on the early years of our marriage and do clearly see that when rules were clearly defined, they were more often than not followed by both of us. 

Do tell.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

First - I try to keep things simple by focusing on 3 things: time, money and love. With that said A couple suggestions:
- Stop initiating "loving" gestures. When she initiates, you respond. If she doesn't initiate for a while that is ok. Telling her unprompted that you love her, she is pretty, etc. on a regular basis when she is treating you badly conveys that you are ok with how she is treating you. If she says it first and you respond - that is different. It means you love her - but generally if you don't initiate that sends a strong message and one she needs to hear at this point. When you go into "respond only" mode it signals that yes you love her, but don't really love how she is behaving. 
- Pick a time to review the budget - give yourselves an hour - do your homework. Have a couple examples of her over spending with you - but don't take them out unless you need to. The goal needs to be to get her to commit to sticking with spending limits. And those limits need to allow you to save some money. It is crazy to live "at your income" you will never be able to retire. Be totally calm - and be sympathetic. It is ok if she is frustrated when she cannot buy a $250 swimsuit but impulse control is part of being a grownup. 

My W was a SAHM wife also and mostly she was very good with money. A couple times when she wanted to do stuff that we simply could not afford I said "I am truly sorry we cannot afford that at this point in our life. If it really is something you cannot live without, you can get a job working weekends and I will watch the kids. And you may use your "after tax, after expenses" income from that job to fund this item."

Turned out that nothing was ever worth that much effort. 

As for conflict - my W used to get frustrated watching me do something. Eventually she would get angry and say "I hate it when you do X." Over time I taught her to do something different which is to simply suggest what she "does" want the first time she sees the behavior. So now she says "the next time X happens, I would prefer if you would do Y" and I almost always say "sure". This isn't "conflict" it is communication. If your W isn't willing to do that - stop worrying about what she likes/dislikes and use your best judgement. YOU are not responsible for reading her mind. 

As for sex - difficult subject - this is what I have found. I avoid all the obvious turn offs. Women are turned off by guys who:
- Are overly emotional
- Are whiny
- Are easily intimidated by the Woman - EVEN when they both know she is in the wrong
- Can be fooled by illogical/contradictory arguments 
- Cannot tolerate her being angry at him - has to try to "make peace" even at the expense of his balls, spine or sanity
- Are unable to assert their boundaries - cannot say and mean "that is unacceptable to me"
- Convey negative emotions via facial expression, body language and then refuse to answer when asked why they are upset. If you cannot hide the fact you are upset - then you are obligated to say what is bothering you when she asks. 
- Have a "victim" mindset

As for the financial piece of this:
- If you say "I am really upset that you spent X" = whiny
- If you say "You need to make up for the overspend during the next two months, if you don't we are tearing up the credit cards/bank cards and I will provide you a fixed amount of cash per week". THIS is being assertive and enforcing YOUR boundaries. For instance I imagine one boundary you have as a person is that you would not allow someone else to gradually put you into bankruptcy. That is having boundaries - not being controlling. It only becomes controlling if you prevent her from working (part time) AND unreasonably limit her spending. 





father-of-3 said:


> I think you are onto something. Some of the steps I have already taken like setting aside time to go to the gym and following up with it was at first met with no less than a surprised / annoyed gasp from my wife. It would seem that me having not taken a firm and steady stand on issues like time management/sharing, finances, and clear expectations of what and how often things go on in the bedroom have simply left her to do as she pleases. I am now realizing that this has as you hinted emboldened my wife to cross way too far towards the bitter, self-entitlement, and non-reciprocating side. Presently she does not see an issue with not part-taking in any form of give and take. The take part seems to be all good, but that leaves the other party starved. I am trying to speak to her in her love language, which is to complement her and to throw new and fresh opportunities to do things her way. But in return I am getting complete silence and inaction. What makes it hard is that my wife does not like confrontation. That is straight from her lips. When asked if she could sit down with me from day to day and share anything that is bothering her, she tells me that she is not comfortable doing that because she feels that is confrontational and would only bring it up if it REALLY bothered her -- i.e. sit on it until a major flare up takes place. This I find really unhealthy for any marriage because there is little room to learn gently along the way from explosive verbal arguments.
> 
> Your notion is very intriguing because I think back on the early years of our marriage and do clearly see that when rules were clearly defined, they were more often than not followed by both of us.
> 
> Do tell.


----------



## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

In all sincerity, MEM is the man we should all aspire to be.


----------



## Willow (Jun 17, 2010)

seeking sanity said:


> In all sincerity, MEM is the man we should all aspire to be.


Or for the girls, the man we should all have the great fortune to be married to...!


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SS,
That is very kind. I credit my W for patiently, relentlessly and lovingly, sand blasting (without any anesthesia) my rough edges and helping me grow as a person. 




seeking sanity said:


> In all sincerity, MEM is the man we should all aspire to be.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Willow,
You are very kind. My father taught me how to be a "man" in a work environment. But he didn't understand women very well - he got on fine with my mom because she was pretty easy to deal with. My W taught me how to be a man in a marriage. 



Willow said:


> Or for the girls, the man we should all have the great fortune to be married to...!


----------



## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

seeking sanity said:


> In all sincerity, MEM is the man we should all aspire to be.


MEM has figured his wife out. MEMs wife responds to his methodologies. His advice is priceless, but it might not work everytime for every situation. I think it depends on how independenty minded a woman is, how stubborn and most importantly, how much respect she has for her husband.

I read every post he makes diligently and have applied many of his techniques.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

OD,
Totally agree with the point on respect. And my experience with that has been that like anyone I do a mix of "earning" it by behaving in a manner worthy of respect and "demanding" it by showing intolerance for other's bad behavior. 

For instance I have taught my wife a little technique that we find to be very effective. When visiting family - hers or mine - I noticed a lot of fairly extreme interrupting going on. One of us would be talking (and neither my W nor I are long winded) and someone else in the family would start talking over us as if we weren't there. So when that happens - she and I both briefly glance at the person who interrupted and then resume what we were saying to each other while making continuous eye contact with each other. If the other person raises their voice I slowly move closer to my W and start to orient my body so that I am beginning to face away from the interrupter. 

Turns out that if you do that 2-3 times in a row almost anyone will stop interrupting and will in general be more respectful. I am sure there are plenty of other ways to do this - but THIS way conveys a few messages. 1. Your W sees you not tolerating blatantly disrespectful behavior to EITHER OF YOU. Half the time she was the one being interrupted. 2. She sees you modify other peoples behavior quickly and effectively. 3. She perceives the value/power in the two of us acting in concert to achieve a common goal. 

And ummm - you know that bad habit my W had of interrupting me when the two of us are in our own home. Well how much more aware of that do you think she is after a week with our relatives?  

As for how independently minded a woman is - LOL - ROTFL. I swear to God this is true - when we got engaged and I realized what a Tiger I was marrying I rented "The Taming of the Shrew" from Blockbuster. We sat down and watched it together. She thought it quite amusing. When it was over I turned and quietly stared at her - hoping to initiate the process of taming MY shrew via a little stare down intimidation. And she gave me this wicked smile and said "Give it your best shot." 





okeydokie said:


> MEM has figured his wife out. MEMs wife responds to his methodologies. His advice is priceless, but it might not work everytime for every situation. I think it depends on how independenty minded a woman is, how stubborn and most importantly, how much respect she has for her husband.
> 
> I read every post he makes diligently and have applied many of his techniques.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Listen, MEM is the man- Do follow his advice. Very well worth a try, or you will know when to move on. 

I have not read all of these posts, but I know that I could be considered something like your wife, (not nearly as spoiled financially-darn!) But I was spoiled in just about every other way imaginable - from a good loving "too nice" , willing to do anything for me husband, and I took him for granted for many many years- shamefully. I always loved him, never doubted that, but he never demanded to be treated better, he just let me get away with a bad attitute, less sex than he desired, I even had the kids sleeping with us. He was , by nature, "Mr. Sacrificial". 

Your wife seriously needs to realize what she stands TO LOOSE, the gravity of the situation - because YOU DESERVE so much better! She may not like this change, and try to manipulate you back into being her pawn. Don't let it happen. Until she can respect you and your needs, she NEEDS to be put on the Back burner in all ways. Stand up for yourself, show some selfishness (in comparison to your normal unselfish ways)! This could just do the trick, could revive some passion she may not even realize is there. I feel this is your best stategy.


----------



## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

2Daughters said:


> Those types of people are just unhappy with themselves, always WANTING someone else to make them happy, It really is sad those who need others to make them feel happy, they will never be until they like themselves and are comfortable with themselves...some of you have gone above and beyond trying to make your wives or husbands happy:scratchhead:..bottomline is, they don't know what happy is..and it sucks for you because what they seek, doesn't exist...I never bought my wife anything or remembered dates or stuff like that and she was still ungrateful..and she is still unhappy on her own:scratchhead:..so what is love to a woman?...who cares!


I wish someone would explain this post to me. Why he thinks he is saying something. Why his wife is so terrible for being ungrateful that he never did anything for her. And why the next poster high-fived him.

************************************

Father-of-3, did you ask your wife why she no longer loves you? You post a question like this on a marriage forum and receive all kinds of responses, mostly from men in your same position, who are all too ready to bash their wives and womankind. But why not ask your wife? There lies the only possible person who can give you an answer. You sound great on the surface as you tell us of all the wonderful things you do, but no one seems to notice your contradictions. Therefore, we can't possibly know all the things you are not telling us. Only your wife can know those.

A couple examples:

1) Her not being interested in sex anymore. Now, I guess you will tell us what a wonderful lover you are, but a woman does not turn away from a wonderful lover. She does not turn away from a man who treats her well. She turns away from a man who does not satisfy her in bed, or she turns away from one who treats her badly and unkindly. So who is the innocent victim here? 

2) You tell us you make the money and never play the money card. Then you say........



father-of-3 said:


> Money wise, I take a hit every month going deeper into debt.


........If it isn't YOUR money, how is it only you who takes the hit? Was it not the family budget that took the hit? Did you reveal a little more with that statement than you intended?

3) Like one of the other posters, I also wonder why she is supposed to grateful that you get along with her family.

4) Kind gestures and open displays of love and affection are not rejected when extended from a loving husband. So what went on prior to your loving touch and request for a kiss? What here are you not telling us?

If your wife is bored and taking you for granted because you're too nice or too laid back, then maybe some of the advice you received to ignore and manipulate her are in order. Yes, perhaps those will work. But, if you succeeded to destroy your wife's love by not being the Mr. Wonderful you make yourself out to be to us, then none of that will work, and you have a lot of making up and changing your ways to do.


----------



## father-of-3 (Apr 25, 2010)

I think your observations are great for discussion. I've answered them inline below. For certain I have no interest in bobble heads patting me on the back.



Susan2010 said:


> I wish someone would explain this post to me. Why he thinks he is saying something. Why his wife is so terrible for being ungrateful that he never did anything for her. And why the next poster high-fived him.
> 
> ************************************
> 
> ...



>>> Here's the thing -- I finally came to terms that I am not responsible for either of her happiness or her sex drive. I am rediscovering that I am able to be happy, in fact excited about life, my kids, interests I have let become dusty far too long, and my future whether my wife partakes in it or not. I certainly would love for her to be there on the journey with me. But I now know that even without her, I can be happy and balanced. It is just different happiness, but happiness nonetheless. A lot of people are left in life with less in my humble oppinion.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

F3,
Your post below was very good. As the sole breadwinner for our family of 5, W plus 3 kids I took exception to Susan being critical of your choice of words (your wallet instead of the families). While I agree you could have used "her" suggested wording she ignored the three objective facts that you laid on the table:
- Your "family" expenses exceed your net income (huge problem)
- Your W indulges herself in expensive luxuries - 250 bathing suit is ok IF you are meeting all your saving goals and IF it fits with the discretionary income she has to spend. Clearly neither is true. 
- Your discretionary spending is WAY less than your wifes

I really like how you tied this back to the KIDS and their school supplies - good father - good priorities. I do however see a troubling contradiction here. Why is it your W doesn't want to hold your hand, and has totally deprioritized sex - and YET - she is spending serious money to look HOT in a bathing suit. Very odd. 

I come back to the big 3 - time, money, love. 

1. Most men cannot experience real marital love without a sufficient amount of sex. 

2. Your W has arranged her/your life so that when you factor in your job, you have a fair amount LESS free time than she does. 

3. She is spending money that should be going to the children or to savings or to the occasional treat for the guy busting his hump to fund everything.....

I commend you for finding a way to be happy without her assistance. I do have a question though. Will you really continue to tolerate this level of disrespect for you, your marriage and your kids on a go forward basis?

I say this one thing with utter certainty - until you regain your wifes respect there is zero chance she will love you. 

Everything I have posted here - and elsewhere on this board is based on my observations about my own marriage or other marriages that I have a close window into. 

With that said I HATE having conflict with my W. She is tough, and smart and persistent/sometimes stubborn. She is strong willed and 1-2 days a month is capable of being mean. And yet I NEVER shy away from conflict with her. Because we have this beautiful balance of power - I have a healthy fear of her and SHE has a healthy fear of me. And the result is a lot of love, a lot of passion and virtually unlimited mating privileges. 

Didn't mean to go on for so long - but you seem like a very smart guy. I think you can fix what is broken if you are determined enough. Your primary issue is not going to have anything to do with brainpower - it is going to all come down to one single question. How much conflict and tension are you willing to have with your W? 




father-of-3 said:


> I think your observations are great for discussion. I've answered them inline below. For certain I have no interest in bobble heads patting me on the back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

You addressed my observations, but you didn't answer any of them. Not one. You did toot your horn quite a bit.....again.

This is what I'm saying: Your wife has checked out of the marriage. She is displaying the signs of  the walk-away-wife. That does not happen for no reason and does not happen in healthy relationships. Maybe she is and maybe she is not preparing to leave, but she has surely checked out, and it sounds like she's trying to pacify unhappiness with purchases. It may be easy for you to say and whoever of the other men who said you are not responsible for her happiness, but you certainly cannot say you are not responsible for her unhappiness. Your woman is telling you in no uncertain terms that you have made her unhappy.

Your wife does not want to be bothered with you. She does not want you even touching her. She does not care for your public displays of affection, even though everyone else is doing it. I do not know why it makes sense to you to rationalize a peck on the cheek is not something she needs right now. But hey, if it makes sense to you . . .

So, you take these guys' advice to manipulate and ignore your wife with no idea of how she feels or why she feels it. "I have not been meeting her needs, so I will just disregard and find other things to do." Very easy to look anywhere else if it helps you avoid looking at yourself.

If you are truly concerned about your children, you will find out what is going on with your wife and why she does not love you anymore. Marriage counseling should help with that. There is also MarriageBuilders.com, to help you discover what went wrong and walk you through rebuilding your relationship with your wife.


----------



## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

Mem, you are shamefully waaayy beyond whatever you deem to be logical advice and gone seriously deep into sexist assertions.


----------



## father-of-3 (Apr 25, 2010)

I can tie MEM and Susan's replies together here. Both are valued inputs no doubt. 

MEM, the answer to your "YET" question is simple. I can walk throughout the house and make a pile 2 feet high of W's clothes that still have all their tags on them, said swimsuits included. The short of it in my view is hoarding in preparation for an exit. But this is a year's worth of effort on her part and is in line with what she with full honesty tells me when talking things over. She's a behind the scenes personality type, and not a volunteer or provocateer. I get that not everyone is a "look at me" person. But I don't condone the behavior.

I wonder how it would go were I to simply donate said pile to say a women's shelter... eh? After all, the cost is already incurred from the family budget. And if said pile is simply being stored and not used or needed, then who cares, right? Hmmm, that would likely not go so well.

Susan, here is my dilemma. I have kids under the age of 18 and a W in her late 30's. As such I don't expect to sacrifice the last portion of any self respect I have on raising yet another child -- that being the W. What kind of example would I be do my daughters? I expect her to act like an adult, and have better answers than "I don't know" when it comes to life-changing matters. Ambiguity, indicision, and the likes make it hard to have a meaningful dialog. My W is overall a wonderful person, but she is not clay. I cannot mold her into what I want her to be. My goal is to figure out the "new" her and see if anything on my end "can" also become new to be compatible again. I say "can" because each of us in life has limits to which we are willing to adjust, whether it be personality or love wise. Is it not fair game to stick to some core set of values throughout ones life? Or do I just bend in the wind?


----------



## Wisp (Jul 17, 2010)

This is the third time I have posted this today:


Have a read :---it called a 180


Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

No frequent phone calls.

Don't follow her around the house.

Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.

Don't ask for reassurances.

Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" at this particular moment, she is not very loveable.

Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life! - At least this is how it appears to her 
Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

Don't sit around waiting on your wife - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!

When home with your wife, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to!

If you're in the habit of asking her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.

Your wife needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that you are serious concerning her assertions as to the future (or lack thereof) of your marriage. 

Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available for anything! Your wife will notice. 
No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your wife happiness and contentment?

*Make yourself be someone she would want to be around*. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value. – not saying you are

All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your wife wants to talk about it.Initiate no such conversation!

*Do not allow yourself to lose your temper*. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF!

Don't be overly enthusiastic.

Do not argue when she tells you how she feels (it only makes her feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!

*Be patient *and learn to *not only listen *carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you *HEAR what it is *that she is saying! Listen and then listen some more!

Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.

*Take care of youself*. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.
Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.

Your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.

*Do not be openly desperate or needy *even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your wife. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care!

Your wife will speak in absolute negatives and may do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that she may be hurting and is afraid. 

*Do not give up no matter how dark it is* or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!"

Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.

When expressing your dissatisfaction, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed or the words said are causing you as a person. 

This is the kind of behaviour that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life even though you are actually still fighting for your marriage


----------



## Wisp (Jul 17, 2010)

One more, check your finances, look back and see if money is being drained, sometimes a spouse will plan an exit strategy well ahead of the deed. 

If this is the case at least you know where you stand.


----------



## father-of-3 (Apr 25, 2010)

Wisp, your reply is very eerie. In fact it rings so well with what has happened recently that I almost think you know my W.!  I have done a few of your suggestions over the past couple weeks and will try some of the others as well to gauge results. Here are some that ring true with your advice.

Don't be needy, moody, pathetic: I make sure I focus on something very positive from the day before entering the house or before beginning something around the house where we will be in the same room for extended time.

Temperwise, I do not yell or do name calling, but I can be terse with replies. That is an issue I continue to work on self-improving in general. For now, I use a simple strategy... pause before speaking. For me that gives enough time for my subconscious to hear what is about to exit my mouth before it does -- just in case.

Listen, listen, listen... I am a poor listener. I am working on it though! One example is me taking in ALL of the advice I am receiving here. It does not mean I blindly follow, but I am listening and absorbing. With the W, I am trying to learn to HEAR the right things and not get caught up taking a self-destructive tangent on some phrase that really was inconsequential in the beginning.

Some things I am already seeing, or THINK I see from the W are:

- W asking "What are your plans for today?"
- W offering to share photos of hiking trip she had the day before with a playgroup
- W making eye contact when speaking with a foot proximity of each other

One thing I think I HEAR yet don't know how to tackle with all that has been suggested by a half dozen people now is this. When the W is ready to turn in for the night, she says things like "I am going upstairs", "Are you staying up for a bit?". The W is not a night owl and likes to unwind watching TV (mostly for background noise), roll over and go to sleep -- 9 - 9:30ish if she can. I on the other hand am a night owl. It is when my mental juices flow. When I HEAR her as please come upstairs to bed, what ends up happening is that she simply goes to sleep on the way other end of the bed with her back to me. My brain is NOT ready to go to sleep and I FEEL discarded. Is it good for US for me to go to bed like that day after day after day and just be there like the lamp on the dresser? I mean, the W won't even lay anywhere near, let alone even lay a hand on mine. I HEAR he "sighing" on the way up to bed when I reply that I'll be up in a little bit. So WHAT does she need? Just my presence in the room? I am confused... even plain friends ought not to neglect each other like that, let alone spouses.

-Thx for sharing your thouhts


----------



## Wisp (Jul 17, 2010)

You need to start this and follow every item as best as you can, she needs to see and feel the change – words are just not getting through. 

It will worry her, scare her, but because you ARE available, LISTENING and HAPPY; in her mind you are becoming a better person and perhaps you are in some aspects, you are just hiding the pain, deflecting it and replacing it with good things.

At a point should she change you will want of keep some of items that should become a norm for you others like the “I love you” will start to come naturally from you once she reacts positively to the new you.

Go for it, set a goal and show improvement week on week.

PS. Regarding the bedtime call, stop watching the TV and go to bed with her unless…

you are enjoying what you are doing (TV does not equate to doing something enjoyable a hobby etc. does) then don’t go to bed. Another option is to say 10:00 dear.. and keep to 10:00 she may/will be awake and see you come in.

In the future it a good practise to retire to the room at the same time , helps with your and your wife’s sex life, assuming all this works and she starts responding.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Susan,
Actually - I imagine I am being sexist - but not deliberately. 

Dead serious here - educate me. It is NOT my intention to be sexist so break it down for me so I can work on this. 




Susan2010 said:


> Mem, you are shamefully waaayy beyond whatever you deem to be logical advice and gone seriously deep into sexist assertions.


----------



## father-of-3 (Apr 25, 2010)

One of the things lacking from me in our marriage has been me providing adequate direction. That does not mean imposing, but rather being an active participant in planning things. Yielding at first, which grew into ultra passiveness, likely lead to my W believing I do not care. Far from the truth, but it is understandable to come to such a conclusion. Recently I've started tossing out ideas more frequently and some of those have stuck while others have fallen through. I expect that and will keep at it. In addition, I have also begun to clearly insist on others. "If you expect ... from me, I expect ... from you.". I specifically avoid the phrase "would like you to" and additionally name a precise timeline. I have had surprising positive success with it. After an initial push back from my W, and a "we'll see", as long as I follow through, it seems to come to fruition.

Now the task for me is to carefully pick and choose such exchanges. I am not looking to become a jerk or bully, but need to press on in areas where the end result is mutually beneficial for our marriage.


----------



## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Father of 3,

I am hoping you are still reading this thread, as I am wishing I saw this thread earlier but as I am not online as much lately I missed until now.

I am most heartened at these last few pages, particularly your last post and I am wondering how you are doing?

THese things you are saying are important for you, and for many other good men that are needing to see them, how easy for the good man to fall into what you call "ultra passiveness". 

If there was a way to hand all men the instruction manual in marraige to warn against this very thing I wish I could make it happen!

As for worrying to become a jerk or bully, this may be closer to saying you should worry about making too much money, or worry about being too happy. 

The reality is, as upside down as it may sound to hear to your ears, is far more likely to worry about not become enough of a jerk or bully, so much is the change necessary for the good man that has discovered he is a follower in his own life, to recognize and make the changes to become a leader of his own happiness.

I wish you well.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Mem...
What sounded sexist about your post to me was the many parts about you saying you "trained her". The image that came to my head was a circus animal. I doubt that was your intention and posting on boards rarely emotes the correct way but that kind of made me cringe. I think that is what Susan was getting at.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Brennan,
If I said "trained" my bad. I love and respect my W. I consider her my true equal. We have "both" taught each other a lot. It is very hard for anyone to convey the true spirit of their marital interactions via text. Suffice to say that if you watched a home video of us interacting over time you would see:
- A lot of genuinely happy give and take. We both like making each other happy. We both put each other first most of the time. 
- The occasional upside down argument where I am pushing hard to do for her and she equally hard to do for me. 
- Me apologizing without reservation, excuse or modifier when I screw up. W doing the same. Half the time a mutual "I had a role in this too". On occasion, mid-argument she will lock eyes and say "I accept your humble apology" which tends to make me laugh and say "glad you are so forgiving". 
- The odd fight that might seem stupid to others - but is not to her/me where the conversational temperature drops below the freezing point and stays there for days. 

As for being sexist - not my intent. I do think that men and women are different in some important ways. For instance, if you read my comments about what a man should NOT do with his wife behaviorally - you might notice I don't apply the same standard of behavior to W. NOT because women are lessor - because they are different. 

My W nurtures the children, the parents / elderly, the sick, etc. She is really kind and empathetic and thoughtful with that pool of people. I don't know if that is true for most women, but it sure as hell is for the women in my family, extended family. 

She does that nurturing thing WAY more than I do and way more than the other guys in the family even those related by blood. . So the way I see it is if she is emotionally caring for all those folks, it is MY job to emotionally care for HER. That means she is entitled to radiate a LOT MORE negative emotion (not in an abusive way) in venting to me than I am to her. Turning it around - if I did what she does, I would damn well expect her to do for me, what I do for her. 

When she sees ME, my goal is for her to think "strong, supportive, loving, upbeat, kind, patient, determined and helpful". And that is intended to make her feel loved, and protected. I don't try to solve her problems but after listening to a long vent I typically ask "Is there anything I can do to help?" And if there is, I try to do it. 

With that said, we can all be difficult, irrational and or unfair to each other at times. And when that happens she gets the "alpha edge". And honestly I think she can be conflicted about that. When we subsequently agree that I was in the wrong, it sucks. When we agree afterwards I was in the right she apologizes and fuvks my brains out. Either way she respects/desires me for having an edge. 

Overall - IMO - she is MORE alpha. We laugh about how the dogs follow HER around. 




Brennan said:


> Mem...
> What sounded sexist about your post to me was the many parts about you saying you "trained her". The image that came to my head was a circus animal. I doubt that was your intention and posting on boards rarely emotes the correct way but that kind of made me cringe. I think that is what Susan was getting at.


----------

