# Porn, women, body image



## Anon Pink

Elinor Roosevelt is quoted as saying, "_*No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.*_"

This also applies to you. 

If you look in the mirror and see inferior, you are giving consent to others to also see you as inferior. You are giving permission to others to make you feel inferior because you agree that you are in fact inferior.

But... you might be projecting onto others your own sense of inferiority when in truth you are NOT viewed that way. You might be projecting onto others your own fears of being rejected because you reject yourself.

Some women see porn and see demeaning women and yet today, nothing could be farther from the truth. Porn performers are exhibitionists to the core and they enjoy their work. Today, female porn performers have total control over what they consent to do and with whom they consent to do it with! Furthermore, today the average porn performer is paid more, percentage wise, then ever before.

Women and negative body image go hand in hand it seems. We can cast the blame at the advertisers, at Sports Illustrated, at Good Housekeeping and yes at Porn. But it seems to me that dear old Elimore would not have blamed some anonymous industry for feeling inferior.

You own your body.
You own your feelings about your body.
You own your insecurity.
You own your sexuality.


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## MrsAldi

Great Post Anon, 

I don't mind porn nor would I judge the men & women who participate in it. 
I am not jealous or insecure if husband watches it. 
I cannot control the fashion industry liking of size zero. 
I cannot control the fact that most of the women in magazines are airbrushed & look beautiful all the time. 

But I can control how I feel about myself. 
I choose to feel happy with what I have. 



Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## peacem

I agree. I think modern porn had the opposite affect on me. In the old days porn models would have a very distinctive 'look', shape and size. But now porn sites are full of very varied people, from drop dead gorgeous to plain, huge breasts to small breasts, large to skinny, young to mature....so on and so forth. So what I learned from exploring porn is that to be 'sexy' you do not have to be an ideal...in fact porn transcends idealism and questions our traditional aspirations to be sexy. It was a shocker and something I wish I had explored sooner. 

To me...being happy and confident is sexy, and communicating sexuality is sexy. The other stuff is just surface dressing.


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## soccermom2three

My husband and I know a couple. They have a 19 year old daughter and I remember her as a little girl kicking a soccer ball around. At 18 years old she started her "career" in porn. I'm pretty sure it's not about owning her sexuality.


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## Anon Pink

soccermom2three said:


> My husband and I know a couple. They have a 19 year old daughter and I remember her as a little girl kicking a soccer ball around. At 18 years old she started her "career" in porn. I'm pretty sure it's not about owning her sexuality.


Excellent this brings up something I've been pondering.

I'm assuming the girl you write about was raised, you believe, in some harmful way that damaged her? Or is she supporting a drug habit? 

Essentially what you're saying is that because this girl was or is somehow damaged it thus invalidates her decision to enter the porn industry. How then do we as a civilized society screen for damaged individuals making choices that might harm themselves? Can we do that?

When Evil Knievel jumped 18 buses (or however many there were) we could assume the man was crazy and had a death wish. Only damaged people would expose themselves to such a risk of bodily injury or death. 

What do you think?


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## Anon Pink

@MrsAldi,

That size zero always makes me laugh. Do they understand what zero actually means? If you are a size zero does this mean you do not exist? Or that you are a nothing, an empty space?
@peacem,

So you came to see you were discounting your own sexiness because you felt your body didn't measure up? Do you sometimes still have moments of struggle when you don't feel or can't gather that confidence?


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## kag123

While I do not have this issue with porn, I have it in general about myself. As I grow older I am often caught off guard at how vast the gap is between what I think of myself and what other people see. Not always related to appearances. 

I don't know if it's amplified by my depression/anxiety or what. Sometimes I am so detached from reality that I can't really tell. 

But a good example of this just happened to me. I've been dreading swimsuit season this year just feeling like I'm not where I want to be. Not feeling comfortable in any of the suits I own so going on an endless buy-and-return shopping spree to try to find a new suit. When you dislike how you look, a different type of bathing suit isn't really going to help that. 

Three days ago I went to my PCP for my 6 months check up and was shocked when she said "you've lost 10 lbs since your last appointment, you look great!" Uh I did?

Three other totally unrelated people who have no contact with each other have also told me I look great (skinny) in the last three days. 

I am too clouded by my own eyes to see it.


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## EllisRedding

One thing I have noticed in terms of body image, women seem to be the harshest critics of each other, which you could argue just further contributes to body image issues.

As you can tell by my avatar, I own my sexuality >


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## Anon Pink

Exactly Kag. I'm sorry you're fighting depression. Depression just sucks! It sucks the joy, the happiness and the ability to connect. It's horrible! I hope you find a cure that works for you soon.

Bathing suit shopping is the worst because not only do you want to look good (and the body image thing always seems to poke it's head out while I'm in the dressing room) but you also want it to be comfortable and they don't seem to make flattering bathing suits that are also comfortable.


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## Anon Pink

EllisRedding said:


> One thing I have noticed in terms of body image, women seem to be the harshest critics of each other, which you could argue just further contributes to body image issues.
> 
> As you can tell by my avatar, I own my sexuality >


I think you're right. But, I think the harshest critics are also those with the most fragile sense of themselves. It's like a personal reminder that they better be on their best behavior or they too will not be good enough.


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## EllisRedding

Anon Pink said:


> I think you're right. But, I think the harshest critics are also those with the most fragile sense of themselves. It's like a personal reminder that they better be on their best behavior or they too will not be good enough.


Agreed, I do know some women who have a negative view of themselves but are the first ones to criticize another female  I think it is part trying to tear someone down so you feel better about yourself.

I can't remember when, but for one of the award shows a while back one of the actress' was pregnant and I think it was Joan Rivers who tore her apart for her "look" 

Unfortunately I am started to see this creeping into the guy side as well...


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## Red Sonja

Anon Pink said:


> Some women see porn and see demeaning women and yet today, nothing could be farther from the truth. Porn performers are exhibitionists to the core and they enjoy their work. Today, female porn performers have total control over what they consent to do and with whom they consent to do it with! Furthermore, today the average porn performer is paid more, percentage wise, then ever before.


This is certainly true for a portion of the porn industry.

*However, as long as human sex trafficking thrives throughout the world, I highly doubt it is true for all. 

*


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## Anon Pink

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed, I do know some women who have a negative view of themselves but are the first ones to criticize another female  I think it is part trying to tear someone down so you feel better about yourself.
> 
> I can't remember when, but for one of the award shows a while back one of the actress' was pregnant and I think it was Joan Rivers who tore her apart for her "look"
> 
> Unfortunately I am started to see this creeping into the guy side as well...


I remember Joan Rivers tearing into some actress on the red carpet who was showing tons of cleavage. The problem, according to Joan, was that the actresses boobs were so big because she was breastfeeding and Joan thought milk swollen breasts looked horrible compared to....I guess silicone breasts.


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## Anon Pink

Red Sonja said:


> This is certainly true for a portion of the porn industry.
> 
> *However, as long as human sex trafficking thrives throughout the world, I highly doubt it is true for all.
> 
> *


This is true. I never thought about nonUS based porn. I think there are regulations and permits involved in US based porn. I better look that up.


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## soccermom2three

Anon Pink said:


> Excellent this brings up something I've been pondering.
> 
> I'm assuming the girl you write about was raised, you believe, in some harmful way that damaged her? Or is she supporting a drug habit?
> 
> Essentially what you're saying is that because this girl was or is somehow damaged it thus invalidates her decision to enter the porn industry. How then do we as a civilized society screen for damaged individuals making choices that might harm themselves? Can we do that?
> 
> When Evil Knievel jumped 18 buses (or however many there were) we could assume the man was crazy and had a death wish. Only damaged people would expose themselves to such a risk of bodily injury or death.
> 
> What do you think?


Involvement in porn and all the way down to sending out nude selfies is all about external validation and wanting attention. They are not owning anything. The oohs and aahs, comments and the likes is what they are looking for to falsely boost up their self esteem. They wouldn't bother if not for the feedback. In porn it's for the money. My 21 year old daughter has a body like barbie doll but doesn't have that need to show it off. To me, that's a more enlightened view than showing it all off in porn, etc.

To be honest, when I've watched porn, it's all so fake and the women seem high so I'm not sure how they are owning their sexuality.

I don't think we ever really know what goes on in anyone's home. The couple we know doesn't talk about it. This girl has an older sister the same age as my daughter and didn't go that way, so who knows.


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## peacem

Anon Pink said:


> @peacem,
> 
> So you came to see you were discounting your own sexiness because you felt your body didn't measure up? Do you sometimes still have moments of struggle when you don't feel or can't gather that confidence?


Yes of course. It comes it goes. 

20 years ago I was engaged and a few weeks before I got married my husbands friends made a crude, derogatory remark about my small breasts. Up until then I hadn't really cared much about my breast size as I was very slim and felt good about it. It took me years to get over that and I attributed every problem in my marriage to being sexually unattractive because of my flat chest. When I had my first child my breast ballooned to DD cups and guess what ...it made no difference to the attention my husband gave to them. I am trying to lose some weight at the moment and I know my breast size will go down, but I also know my husband willingly married me knowing I had small breasts. So what does it matter. I think it is called critical thinking. 

I remember being 18 and working in an office with several middle-aged women. One in particularly was a very attractive woman who was probably in her early 50's. She was very attractive and I suppose sexy (always wore high heels and was immaculately dressed). I wanted to be her when I grew up. Now that I am nearer to her age I look at my daughter and her friends and wish I was a gorgeous 18 yr old again! We can spend our lives chasing our tails if we really put our mind to it :grin2:.


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## Anon Pink

soccermom2three said:


> Involvement in porn and all the way down to sending out nude selfies is all about external validation and wanting attention. They are not owning anything. The oohs and aahs, comments and the likes is what they are looking for to falsely boost up their self esteem. They wouldn't bother if not for the feedback. In porn it's for the money.


Right, people are involved in the porn industry to make money and or because they want attention/ are exhibitionists. I'm not sure how the desire to make money or being an exhibitionist invalidates their decision to perform in porn. 

I disagree, they absolutely are owning their decion, their sexuality, and even their need for attention.

As far as getting attention and or feedback, is this such an outrageous need or desire? 




> My 21 year old daughter has a body like barbie doll but doesn't have that need to show it off. To me, that's a more enlightened view than showing it all off in porn, etc.


Your daughters decision not to show off her body might be based on her need to be modest or her lack of need for attention or a mix of both. Her decision is every it as valid for her as your neighbor's daughter's decision was. 





> To be honest, when I've watched porn, it's all so fake and the women seem high so I'm not sure how they are owning their sexuality.
> 
> I don't think we ever really know what goes on in anyone's home. The couple we know doesn't talk about it. This girl has an older sister the same age as my daughter and didn't go that way, so who knows.



I agree some of the porn I've seen has been pretty fake. Particularly when they attempt some sort of role play scene. Ugh stick to sex and leave the acting to actors.

I wouldn't want any of my daughters to become porn stars, I don't think any parent would. But if one of them did, I would still want them to be treated respectfully. Just as I'm sure your neighbor's want their daughter treated.


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## MrsAldi

Anon Pink said:


> @MrsAldi,
> 
> That size zero always makes me laugh. Do they understand what zero actually means? If you are a size zero does this mean you do not exist? Or that you are a nothing, an empty space?
> 
> It's ridiculous, my husband says I'm tiny but not according to the store rack sizes!
> I think it's a manufacturers way of spending less money on fabric.


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## ne9907

ive always been self conscious about my height. I have always hated being short, I am still learning to love me. I have come a long way


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## joannacroc

I assume every man watches porn, whether he admits it or not. I have no moral objections to it. But yeah, the fact that a guy has that in their head when we're having sex (which most men admit sort of is the case, whether subconsciously or not) is sort of depressing. It makes me feel invisible and as though I could be any woman in the room with them, rather than me. In other words it makes me feel whatever the opposite of special is. Probably worsened by my XH's chronic porn use despite not wanting to have sex. I guess the fantasy women in porn don't have depression or physical flaws or dirty dishes in the sink. Not the actresses, obviously, but the fantasy they represent. Maybe that's part of the appeal? That it's not a "real" woman, but rather a physical outlet to get off? Or that it's all about them because it's not an interactive experience? Who knows.

I wish I could be one of those fabulously enlightened women who likes watching porn. But the sight of it gives me horrible flashbacks to walking in on the ex, and realizing, he doesn't have a low drive, he just doesn't want to have sex with ME.


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## EllisRedding

joannacroc said:


> I assume every man watches porn, whether he admits it or not. I have no moral objections to it. But yeah, the fact that a guy has that in their head when we're having sex (which most men admit sort of is the case, whether subconsciously or not) is sort of depressing.


Honestly this is the first time I have heard of this. At no point when I am with my wife and I thinking back to porn scenes 

So does this mean if a woman watches a porn scene she is thinking about it when she has sex with a guy?

And does it stop at porn? You could argue if this was true, the guy (or gal) would be more likely to have thoughts of previous sex partners


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## alexm

EllisRedding said:


> Honestly this is the first time I have heard of this. At no point when I am with my wife and I thinking back to porn scenes
> 
> So does this mean if a woman watches a porn scene she is thinking about it when she has sex with a guy?
> 
> And does it stop at porn? You could argue if this was true, the guy (or gal) would be more likely to have thoughts of previous sex partners


Yeah, I don't think it happens as much as some people think. I certainly get turned on by external sources (ie. not my wife), but that only sparks the ignition. While with my wife, I'm only thinking of her, and paying attention to her.

In regards to body image and porn, I also think that it's a relative non-issue, TBH. And this goes for either gender.

99 out of 100 men OR women do not look like models, porn stars, or like they belong on the cover of romance novels. We men have just as much variance in our physical bodies as women do. I, like the majority of husbands (lol!) have "dad bod".

If any woman (or man for that matter) is comparing themselves unfavourably to somebody they see in a movie, or porn, then all they have to do is look at their spouse. Do THEY look like the men or women in porn? Probably not. Are you still physically attracted to them, or at least want to have sex with them? Very likely.

But the whole thing sucks, because even knowing what we know - that we PROBABLY don't look like the 1% - we still compare ourselves unfavourably, and therefore minimize our self worth based on something that is largely unattainable. I do it, and I recognise the fallacy of it. I'll never be 6 feet tall, I'll always have body hair, I don't have the drive or determination to develop a 6 pack, etc etc etc.

So that weeds me out of a certain percentage of women who prefer tall men, hairless men, men who have swimmer's bodies, whatever. Meh. But we humans have this desire to be wanted by as large a pool of people as possible, even when it's unnecessary (ie. we're taken).

Personally, I'm more turned on by an average body, and I always have been. I like a little bit of a tummy, I like smaller breasts, I like hips. I don't like, or have ever wanted "perfection". What little porn I do watch is of average women, amateur stuff, in which the people look like normal, every day women. I think with the advent of the internet and readily available and free porn, you'll find that many men and women gravitate to this more and more, as opposed to the slick, over-produced, heavily make-upped, mainstream porn, in which everybody looks the same, more or less. This idea of perfection is over-rated, and people (like myself) are much more interested in watching people who look like you and me. In the past, before free internet porn and the like, anybody who was interested in watching other people have sex were force-fed what others assumed we wanted to see. We had little or no choice in the matter. We do now, thankfully.


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## EllisRedding

alexm said:


> While with my wife, I'm only thinking of her, and paying attention to her.


In all fairness, sometimes when I am with my W I will think about baseball or some other random stuff if I am trying to keep the engine from overheating or the train from entering the station too early. Thinking about porn would definitely be counter productive lol


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## alexm

EllisRedding said:


> One thing I have noticed in terms of body image, women seem to be the harshest critics of each other, which you could argue just further contributes to body image issues.
> 
> As you can tell by my avatar, I own my sexuality >


Couldn't agree more!

As a dude, I can tell you that we dudes also hate our bodies, or wished they looked different. There are 'ideal' body types for men, too, and the vast majority of us don't measure up. I actually hate how I look naked, and that's not a manly thing to say, but it's true.

But we guys tend not to be critical of one another for things like this. We may give each other a hard time about being short or tall, or having back hair or not being able to grow a beard, things like that, but we tend to do so in jest, and to each other's faces. We just don't talk about other guys behind their backs or gossip or otherwise get catty.


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## wild jade

Anon Pink said:


> Right, people are involved in the porn industry to make money and or because they want attention/ are exhibitionists. I'm not sure how the desire to make money or being an exhibitionist invalidates their decision to perform in porn.
> 
> I disagree, they absolutely are owning their decion, their sexuality, and even their need for attention.
> 
> As far as getting attention and or feedback, is this such an outrageous need or desire?


I think you have a skewed sense of what it means to own your sexuality. Or rather, what you say is no doubt true of some porn stars but certainly not all.

Yes, damaged people get to do whatever they want just like the rest of us, and no one should tell them different. But if you are doing something out of self-loathing, hurt, pain, desperation, drug addiction, you are not "owning" it. Plain and simple.

Porn is a predatory industry, not a self-actualizing one, for the most part at any rate.


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## wild jade

alexm said:


> Couldn't agree more!
> 
> As a dude, I can tell you that we dudes also hate our bodies, or wished they looked different. There are 'ideal' body types for men, too, and the vast majority of us don't measure up. I actually hate how I look naked, and that's not a manly thing to say, but it's true.
> 
> But we guys tend not to be critical of one another for things like this. We may give each other a hard time about being short or tall, or having back hair or not being able to grow a beard, things like that, but we tend to do so in jest, and to each other's faces. We just don't talk about other guys behind their backs or gossip or otherwise get catty.


I don't know any women like this either. I don't know where this stereotype about women comes from, but I'm guess I'm glad that isn't at all who I know in my circles.


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## ConanHub

I'll leave the "empowered" women of porn thought alone as I don't think prostitution does anything but degrade us as humans.

The rest of your sentiments receive a heartfelt bravo from me.


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## NextTimeAround

wild jade said:


> I think you have a skewed sense of what it means to own your sexuality. Or rather, what you say is no doubt true of some porn stars but certainly not all.
> 
> Yes, damaged people get to do whatever they want just like the rest of us, and no one should tell them different. But if you are doing something out of self-loathing, hurt, pain, desperation, drug addiction, you are not "owning" it. Plain and simple.
> 
> *Porn is a predatory industry, not a self-actualizing one, for the most part at any rate. *


I have heard that now that there is so much free porn on the internet that pay for doing porn films has really gone down. The radio program that I was listening concluded that the best way for a woman to make money from porn is to set up her own shop online and deal directly with her own clients ...... if she can get any paying clients.

The only role in the sex industry I might assume is empowering, self actualizing would be a well paid prostitute who calls the shots.


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## uhtred

When you "empower" people you also empower them to make their own bad decisions. 

Whether or not getting into porn is a bad decision I think really depends on the particular person. I remember an interview with one college student who became a porn actress was that she could spend one day a month doing porn and make as much as she would working flipping burgers every evening. Whether or not that is a good trade seems to be her choice.


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## Jessica38

wild jade said:


> I don't know any women like this either. I don't know where this stereotype about women comes from, but I'm guess I'm glad that isn't at all who I know in my circles.


I don't either. I can't imagine spending time with a woman who criticizes other women's bodies, especially behind their backs! That's awful.


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## Anon Pink

wild jade said:


> I think you have a skewed sense of what it means to own your sexuality. Or rather, what you say is no doubt true of some porn stars but certainly not all.
> 
> Yes, damaged people get to do whatever they want just like the rest of us, and no one should tell them different. But if you are doing something out of self-loathing, hurt, pain, desperation, drug addiction, you are not "owning" it. Plain and simple.
> 
> Porn is a predatory industry, not a self-actualizing one, for the most part at any rate.


There is a difference between engaging in work because you enjoy the work, and engaging in employment because you need the money. Both are valid reasons to seek particular employment.

You could make those statements about the workers in almost any industry and predatory employment in any industry. Do you think assembly line workers feel self actualized and fulfillment? Miners? Hotel cleaning staff? Migrant farm workers?

The point is that every society will alsways have a certain segment who barely get by. For a whole host of reasons, this segment will always need government protection and will likely never get anywhere near Maslow's second tier, let alone the top. We can offer protections wrt employment standards and regs and enforce fair labor laws, but we can't pretend that sex workers are more victimized and less vulnerable than migrant workers or hotel cleaning staff. It's just that the sex worker doing porn is visible while the hotel maid is invisible.


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## Randy2

About women and body image, my wife of 5 years is a beautiful 60 year old woman who is totally shy about her body. She walks with her shoulders rolled forward; I'm assuming to de-emphasize her breasts. We joke about it and occasionally she'll parade CLOTHED around the house, shoulders back, proud of what she's got.
I complement her regularly on her body and her efforts to stay healthy. 
I hope it's making a difference in how she feels about her body.


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## MrsHolland

AP I agree with what you are saying.

My concern is more about advertising and mass media, to me that is more harmful to people than porn. The photo shopped, unrealistic, unattainable bodies and perfect skin are just setting many up for a life of low self esteem. We are bombarded with images and advertising of perfect men and women with no disclaimer attached that these are manipulated photos. I work hard at trying to combat this with my kids, from well before their teens years I taught them that advertising is fake, it is designed to take your money. It goes even deeper IMHO, it keeps people feel inferior so they will spend their money to buy products to make them look like the images in the ads, it is all bull****.

As for this little chicken, well I never would have guessed that at age 50 I would feel and look so damn sexy. The difference now is that I own it and it feels good  Funny thing is that my body obviously is not what it was when younger but without a doubt I carry myself better, dress better and yeah, I own it.


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## wild jade

uhtred said:


> When you "empower" people you also empower them to make their own bad decisions.
> 
> Whether or not getting into porn is a bad decision I think really depends on the particular person. I remember an interview with one college student who became a porn actress was that she could spend one day a month doing porn and make as much as she would working flipping burgers every evening. Whether or not that is a good trade seems to be her choice.


There are certainly people who make these decision autonomously, and who are empowered in doing so. I know a couple of women who got into the porn industry for precisely these reasons, and made the most of it. 

I also know women who were not at all in the slightest empowered, who ended up there out of fear, desperation, hurt and pain. They "owned" nothing.

And to pretend that porn is all just the former, and not the latter is to ignore a huge problem with the whole industry.

Anyone who says porn is harmless, completely okay, nothing ever to complain about should ask themselves why they would ever characterize it as a "bad decision" or counsel their own daughters to stay away from it.

IMHO.


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## BioFury

Anon Pink said:


> There is a difference between engaging in work because you enjoy the work, and engaging in employment because you need the money. Both are valid reasons to seek particular employment.
> 
> You could make those statements about the workers in almost any industry and predatory employment in any industry. Do you think assembly line workers feel self actualized and fulfillment? Miners? Hotel cleaning staff? Migrant farm workers?
> 
> The point is that every society will alsways have a certain segment who barely get by. For a whole host of reasons, this segment will always need government protection and will likely never get anywhere near Maslow's second tier, let alone the top. We can offer protections wrt employment standards and regs and enforce fair labor laws, but we can't pretend that sex workers are more victimized and less vulnerable than migrant workers or hotel cleaning staff. It's just that the sex worker doing porn is visible while the hotel maid is invisible.


The hotel worker isn't being sexually violated by man after man. She's just doing hard work for low pay.


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## uhtred

Some porn workers are not being violated, they are engaging in consensual sex for money.



BioFury said:


> The hotel worker isn't being sexually violated by man after man. She's just doing hard work for low pay.


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## uhtred

Porn can be an OK career for some people and an absolutely terrible one for other. 

Its not really unique to porn. I can't stand to harm animals. I'd rather do gay porn (and I'm straight) than work in an animal control shelter where I had to kill unwanted dogs and cats every day. But some people are able to view the killing of unwanted animals as a necessary evil, but not as emotionally disturbing.

Similarly I couldn't work as a nurse. Its a wonderful profession for others, but I could not work all day around the sick and dying - even knowing that my actions were helping them. 

Flipping burgers, manual labor etc, I could do if it was my best option. I'm fine with jobs that involve risk or moderate discomfort, but I know others are extremely risk adverse.


I'd like men and women who want a career in porn to be able to do so safely, but to try to be sure that no one is ever put in a position where they feel forced into that, or any other job. 




wild jade said:


> There are certainly people who make these decision autonomously, and who are empowered in doing so. I know a couple of women who got into the porn industry for precisely these reasons, and made the most of it.
> 
> I also know women who were not at all in the slightest empowered, who ended up there out of fear, desperation, hurt and pain. They "owned" nothing.
> 
> And to pretend that porn is all just the former, and not the latter is to ignore a huge problem with the whole industry.
> 
> Anyone who says porn is harmless, completely okay, nothing ever to complain about should ask themselves why they would ever characterize it as a "bad decision" or counsel their own daughters to stay away from it.
> 
> IMHO.


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## BioFury

uhtred said:


> Some porn workers are not being violated, they are engaging in consensual sex for money.


So they're prostitutes, plain and simple. How many women do you think become prostitutes because it's what they want? 

Most of the women are there out of desperation. Which is not "consensual". If you were starving and someone offered you a month's worth of food if you cut off one of your fingers, and you agreed, is that consensual? Hardly.


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## NextTimeAround

BioFury said:


> So they're prostitutes, plain and simple. How many women do you think become prostitutes because it's what they want?
> 
> Most of the women are there out of desperation. Which is not "consensual". If you were starving and someone offered you a month's worth of food if you cut off one of your fingers, and you agreed, is that consensual? Hardly.


Some people sell their organs for greatly needed money.


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## Anon Pink

BioFury said:


> So they're prostitutes, plain and simple. How many women do you think become prostitutes because it's what they want?
> 
> Most of the women are there out of desperation. Which is not "consensual". If you were starving and someone offered you a month's worth of food if you cut off one of your fingers, and you agreed, is that consensual? Hardly.


I agree that desperation is the motivating force for most sex workers to become sex workers. The same can be said about migrant farm workers and hotel cleaning staff. Who the hell aspires to be a migrant farm worker? 

But someone has to do these jobs and the most desperate take these jobs. The best we can do is to protect their rights and enforce OSHA standards (also based on EPA standards) so that the migrant worker isn't forced to spread toxic chemicals without appropriate safety apparel and the sex worker is protected by child labor laws, dept of health codes, and enforced industry standards. 

@MrsHolland I completely agree about the effects of advertising and body image. Frankly I think there should be a truth in advertising standard for beauty products and fashion apparel. 

And yes, hitting 50 was absolutely awesome! I loved every curve my body had, loved how I looked, clearly feminine, clearly soft, and cushioned for a good ride!


----------



## wild jade

Anon Pink said:


> You could make those statements about the workers in almost any industry and predatory employment in any industry. Do you think assembly line workers feel self actualized and fulfillment? Miners? Hotel cleaning staff? Migrant farm workers?


Agreed. And yet you are trying to tell us that porn stars are empowered and "own" their sexuality. 

No. Mostly likely not. Just like maids are not empowered and don't "own" their cleaning skills.


----------



## wild jade

uhtred said:


> Porn can be an OK career for some people and an absolutely terrible one for other.
> 
> Its not really unique to porn. I can't stand to harm animals. I'd rather do gay porn (and I'm straight) than work in an animal control shelter where I had to kill unwanted dogs and cats every day. But some people are able to view the killing of unwanted animals as a necessary evil, but not as emotionally disturbing.
> 
> Similarly I couldn't work as a nurse. Its a wonderful profession for others, but I could not work all day around the sick and dying - even knowing that my actions were helping them.
> 
> Flipping burgers, manual labor etc, I could do if it was my best option. I'm fine with jobs that involve risk or moderate discomfort, but I know others are extremely risk adverse.
> 
> 
> I'd like men and women who want a career in porn to be able to do so safely, but to try to be sure that no one is ever put in a position where they feel forced into that, or any other job.


Porn also dribbles over into your personal life in a way that other jobs do not. It's very difficult to just have a normal loving relationship.

One women I know did end up marrying a guy. He wasn't threatened at all by her past, but it was the end of her career. There was no way that he was going to marry her if she continued that line of work. Understandably, IMHO.

Another woman I know always had tons of dates. Everyone wanted to go out with her, but no one wanted to love her. She had a very lonely life. She went to lots of parties, had lots of sex, but was mostly lonely and sad.


----------



## wild jade

MrsHolland said:


> AP I agree with what you are saying.
> 
> My concern is more about advertising and mass media, to me that is more harmful to people than porn. The photo shopped, unrealistic, unattainable bodies and perfect skin are just setting many up for a life of low self esteem. We are bombarded with images and advertising of perfect men and women with no disclaimer attached that these are manipulated photos. I work hard at trying to combat this with my kids, from well before their teens years I taught them that advertising is fake, it is designed to take your money. It goes even deeper IMHO, it keeps people feel inferior so they will spend their money to buy products to make them look like the images in the ads, it is all bull****.
> 
> As for this little chicken, well I never would have guessed that at age 50 I would feel and look so damn sexy. The difference now is that I own it and it feels good  Funny thing is that my body obviously is not what it was when younger but without a doubt I carry myself better, dress better and yeah, I own it.


It's easy when you are beautiful to own your beauty. It's less easy when you aren't. Some women go through so much to conform to ideals of beauty. Make-up, hair dye, hair removal and styling, manicures, cosmetic surgery. In the end it isn't really their bodies they love, but their artistic sculptures.

I totally agree with @Anon Pink that women should take responsibility for our insecurities, but at the same time, recognize that it's very difficult to filter out all that noise that shames most women for how they actually look without all those interventions.


----------



## Anon Pink

wild jade said:


> Agreed. And yet you are trying to tell us that porn stars are empowered and "own" their sexuality.
> 
> No. Mostly likely not. Just like maids are not empowered and don't "own" their cleaning skills.


Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. Hotel maids working full time cannot support themselves let alone any children they may have. While a sex worker or porn performer can support themselves quite well. So who feels empowered? The hotel maid working her ass off but still can't keep a roof over her head and food on the table if she has children or the sex worker who can pay off student loans in 2 years and bank some cash to open her own business?

Just saw a local production of Les Miz and your first sentence reminded me of the double standard applied to women in desperate circumstances vs men in desperate circumstances.
"Honest work, for honest pay. That's the way the please the lord."

Why is prostitution illegal? Why do we not allow women to legally prostitute themselves in order to make a living? Why do we continue to fool ourselves that we can control sex because the only way to control sex is to control women's bodies by making the selling of sex illegal. 

Why do we allow porn to be made legally, distributed and sold legally, hire the performers legally, yet not legalize prostitution? The oldest profession remains illegal and there isn't one sane person who believes that prostitution can ever be stopped.

Which means prostitution must operate underground, outside of the law, leaving the prostitute extremely vulnerable, because they must stay hidden without the protection of the law. But what would happen if we made prostitution legal?

I submit that legalized prostitution would lead to safer conditions for prositutes and ultimately the double standard that prostitution isn't an honest job would be removed. Even human trafficking would be curtailed if prostitution was legal.


----------



## Anon Pink

wild jade said:


> Porn also dribbles over into your personal life in a way that other jobs do not. It's very difficult to just have a normal loving relationship.
> 
> One women I know did end up marrying a guy. He wasn't threatened at all by her past, but it was the end of her career. There was no way that he was going to marry her if she continued that line of work. Understandably, IMHO.
> 
> Another woman I know always had tons of dates. Everyone wanted to go out with her, but no one wanted to love her. She had a very lonely life. She went to lots of parties, had lots of sex, but was mostly lonely and sad.


This is 100% the result of slvt shaming. No one would bat an eye at a man who had sex with a different woman every night. They wouldn't think of him as damaged property or used up, or too ****ty to bother with. Aside from religious fundamentalists who keep a strict lock of sexuality, men get to have as much sex as they can get while a woman is compelled to lie about her sexual past so that no one thinks she's a ****!

Don't buy into the double standards.


----------



## jld

I think there have still been cases of unregistered sex workers undercutting the market in places where prostitution is legal. 

How about just reforming the economy in general so that women never have to take desperate measures to provide for their children?


----------



## Anon Pink

wild jade said:


> It's easy when you are beautiful to own your beauty. It's less easy when you aren't. Some women go through so much to conform to ideals of beauty. Make-up, hair dye, hair removal and styling, manicures, cosmetic surgery. In the end it isn't really their bodies they love, but their artistic sculptures.
> 
> I totally agree with @Anon Pink that women should take responsibility for our insecurities, but at the same time, recognize that it's very difficult to filter out all that noise that shames most women for how they actually look without all those interventions.


You are very angry.

I wear make up.
I color my hair.
I shave and pluck.
I have had manicures but don't really like getting them so my nails are typically a mess.
I have had breast implants.

I also exercise (sometimes) in order to keep my body as fit looking as I can.
I also avoid a bad diet in order to keep my body as fit looking as I can.

It is completely my body.

Men also do things to improve their appearance. They are shamed for allowing their bodies to become surrounded by fat just as women are, but not as badly as women are shamed. People who don't take care of themselves don't appear healthy. We generally predicate beauty on being healthy.


----------



## Anon Pink

jld said:


> I think there have still been cases of unregistered sex workers undercutting the market in places where prostitution is legal.
> 
> How about just reforming the economy in general so that women never have to take desperate measures to provide for their children?


Don't know about the first part, but I'm all for the second part. How do you propose we reform the economy so that the hotel maid can keep a roof over her head and feed and cloth her children?


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> Don't know about the first part, but I'm all for the second part. How do you propose we reform the economy so that the hotel maid can keep a roof over her head and feed and cloth her children?


Redistribution of wealth. I know some people are completely against it, but it seems to have worked pretty well in Europe. There the average person has opportunities that may be out of reach for even middle class people here.


----------



## wild jade

@Anon Pink, I totally agree with you about legalizing prostitution and sex work generally. 

But I think you are overestimating how lucrative and wonderful a job it is. Hotel maid is, no doubt, an awful job with crappy pay and lots of hard work. But you do get tips. Your boss isn't trying to hook you on drugs so that you will up the ante on what you're willing to do.

Your rosy picture of just how much porn stars make doesn't apply to most. And what you have to do for that pay can leave you physically damaged for life. Making prostitution legal isn't going to end the $5 options from crack-heads. It will mean they have some recourse with the law when they are beaten up, but that's about it. 

Yes, there are some women on the internet who have found a way to make a great deal of money from pictures of their bodies and yanking men's chains. Good for them, and if all porn and prostitution were actually self determining women like this, I'd have little to say about it. But for the most part, that's not how it works.

As for the double standards, it doesn't make any difference whatsoever whether I buy into it or not. I have never **** shamed these women or anyone for that matter. It's not like I can make these guys want to look past a woman's porn career and make them love her.


----------



## wild jade

Anon Pink said:


> You are very angry.
> 
> I wear make up.
> I color my hair.
> I shave and pluck.
> I have had manicures but don't really like getting them so my nails are typically a mess.
> I have had breast implants.
> 
> I also exercise (sometimes) in order to keep my body as fit looking as I can.
> I also avoid a bad diet in order to keep my body as fit looking as I can.
> 
> It is completely my body.
> 
> Men also do things to improve their appearance. They are shamed for allowing their bodies to become surrounded by fat just as women are, but not as badly as women are shamed. People who don't take care of themselves don't appear healthy. We generally predicate beauty on being healthy.


I'm not angry at all. I'm just pointing out that if you are doing all of those things to feel beautiful, then you probably ought not be giving other women grief over having body image insecurities. Or putting us down for being too influenced by what other people say.


----------



## wild jade

jld said:


> Redistribution of wealth. I know some people are completely against it, but it seems to have worked pretty well in Europe. There the average person has opportunities that may be out of reach for even middle class people here.


Minimum standard of living or guaranteed income would work. Also regulating corporations so that they can't actually exploit people that badly.


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> Minimum standard of living or guaranteed income would work. Also regulating corporations so that they can't actually exploit people that badly.


Totally agree.

When enough of us are disgusted with how things presently are, we will change things.


----------



## Anon Pink

wild jade said:


> I'm not angry at all. I'm just pointing out that if you are doing all of those things to feel beautiful, then you probably ought not be giving other women grief over having body image insecurities. Or putting us down for being too influenced by what other people say.


I apologize if I've been misunderstood, but putting women down has never been my intention. Don't scapegoat others for you yourself can't control. I am not even close to a perfect beauty and yet I feel perfectly beautiful because I want to feel beautiful. 

Many years ago when I was deeply troubled by some weight gain, a lousy 30 pounds - went from a size 8 to size 14 and felt like the most hidious woman on the planet - I had to come to terms with my body because I hated hating myself. It does no good to scape goat advertisements or beauty magazines (none of which I've ever purchased ever) or movie stars... it was me that hated me so I had to stop hating me.

At size 6 I felt fat, at size 8 I felt fat. At size 14 my level of self loathing made me avoid all mirrors at all times. That's rediculous don't you think? The problem wasn't my weight, or what I wore, or what Hollywood would say about me. The problem was what I said and thought about me. I was the problem. I was my worst enemy, my harshest critic, my meanest girl friend. It was my hateful voice that put me down.

This is what women need to fight. Not external noise, but internal noise. If that makes you feel like I'm putting you down, then you have my pity. Sometimes the truth hurts.


----------



## uhtred

There is a lot of variation.

Professional porn stars are in some ways like prostitutes because they have sex with other people for money. They are probably closest to high end call girls (given the pay) and some women do become call girls by choice. Its not a crazy choice for some people to have sex with someone for an evening in return for a couple thousand dollars. Seem my mention of an interview with a college student who did porn one day a month rather that have to work every evening. I see that as her choice to make.

Many jobs are in a sense coercive because people need to work to have acceptable lives. Many jobs are really unpleasant, for some people doing porn is better than some alternative jobs.

Porn at $100/hour or tool booth collector breathing truck exhaust at minmum wage? Not a clear choice. 






BioFury said:


> So they're prostitutes, plain and simple. How many women do you think become prostitutes because it's what they want?
> 
> Most of the women are there out of desperation. Which is not "consensual". If you were starving and someone offered you a month's worth of food if you cut off one of your fingers, and you agreed, is that consensual? Hardly.


----------



## uhtred

Empowered is too strong a word. They are given the right to make a decision, even if the decision is between unpleasant alternatives. 





wild jade said:


> Agreed. And yet you are trying to tell us that porn stars are empowered and "own" their sexuality.
> 
> No. Mostly likely not. Just like maids are not empowered and don't "own" their cleaning skills.


----------



## uhtred

I agree that porn affects your personal life, but so do other careers, if in different ways. Airline pilot, long haul truck driver, deep sea fisher, military. These can all be very disruptive to family life - though I agree it is in a different sort of way.






wild jade said:


> Porn also dribbles over into your personal life in a way that other jobs do not. It's very difficult to just have a normal loving relationship.
> 
> One women I know did end up marrying a guy. He wasn't threatened at all by her past, but it was the end of her career. There was no way that he was going to marry her if she continued that line of work. Understandably, IMHO.
> 
> Another woman I know always had tons of dates. Everyone wanted to go out with her, but no one wanted to love her. She had a very lonely life. She went to lots of parties, had lots of sex, but was mostly lonely and sad.


----------



## uhtred

Absolutely agree!
I don't understand why prostitution is still illegal. It seems the illegality has wide ranging negative consequences and basically no positive ones. 

Legalization wouldn't stop abuse but I think it would greatly reduce it. 



Anon Pink said:


> snip
> I submit that legalized prostitution would lead to safer conditions for prositutes and ultimately the double standard that prostitution isn't an honest job would be removed. Even human trafficking would be curtailed if prostitution was legal.


----------



## uhtred

I agree that illegal prostitution wouldn't go away, but I think it would be greatly reduced. I think most people would take the legal safer, less abusive option. 

I'm all for reforming the economy and redistributing wealth to some extent. Figuring out how to do that, and get it passed politically is really difficult. People are not very intelligent in the way that they vote. 




jld said:


> I think there have still been cases of unregistered sex workers undercutting the market in places where prostitution is legal.
> 
> How about just reforming the economy in general so that women never have to take desperate measures to provide for their children?


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> I apologize if I've been misunderstood, but putting women down has never been my intention. Don't scapegoat others for you yourself can't control. I am not even close to a perfect beauty and yet I feel perfectly beautiful because I want to feel beautiful.
> 
> Many years ago when I was deeply troubled by some weight gain, a lousy 30 pounds - went from a size 8 to size 14 and felt like the most hidious woman on the planet - I had to come to terms with my body because I hated hating myself. It does no good to scape goat advertisements or beauty magazines (none of which I've ever purchased ever) or movie stars... it was me that hated me so I had to stop hating me.
> 
> At size 6 I felt fat, at size 8 I felt fat. At size 14 my level of self loathing made me avoid all mirrors at all times. That's rediculous don't you think? The problem wasn't my weight, or what I wore, or what Hollywood would say about me. The problem was what I said and thought about me. I was the problem. I was my worst enemy, my harshest critic, my meanest girl friend. It was my hateful voice that put me down.
> 
> This is what women need to fight. Not external noise, but internal noise. If that makes you feel like I'm putting you down, then you have my pity. Sometimes the truth hurts.


You are absolutely, in any objective or subjective terms, drop dead gorgeous, Anon Pink. 

And you are also absolutely right that ultimately each one of us has to take responsibility for our feelings . . . and our triggers. Other people are not likely to change their feelings or positions just because our feelings are hurt by them. It is up to us to find our own peace. That is what will truly empower us.

And sometimes part of finding that peace is considering why other people have the feelings/positions they do. Not necessarily agreeing, but trying to understand.

Do you remember when you made that post about triggers, back in the late winter/early spring of 2014? That made such an impression on me. One of the most enlightening posts I have read on TAM.


----------



## jld

uhtred said:


> I agree that illegal prostitution wouldn't go away, but I think it would be greatly reduced. I think most people would take the legal safer, less abusive option.
> 
> I'm all for reforming the economy and redistributing wealth to some extent. Figuring out how to do that, and get it passed politically is really difficult. *People are not very intelligent in the way that they vote*.


I certainly agree!

This would be an interesting discussion to have in the political forum . . .

I am not sure what legalizing prositution would do if there were still cheaper, illegal possibilities. I remember reading an article years ago about prositutes in Western Europe complaining about competition from Eastern European women. Not sure how or if that was ever resolved.


----------



## Anon Pink

@jld
Thank you thank you thank you! But my first instinct was to explain how wrong you are and list faults. This is the last vestiges of the neurotic me who will never really go away. I just have to make the healthy me much stronger. 




jld said:


> And sometimes part of finding that peace is considering why other people have the feelings/positions they do. Not necessarily agreeing, but trying to understand.


Can you explain this in more detail?

Also, no I don't remember what I said but I know how I feel about them.


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> @jld
> Thank you thank you thank you! But my first instinct was to explain how wrong you are and list faults. This is the last vestiges of the neurotic me who will never really go away. I just have to make the healthy me much stronger.


(((Anon Pink))) That is just part of the uniqueness and adorableness of *you*. 

And who is to say your instincts are incorrect? There is undoubtedly something to learn from that list of faults. 



> Can you explain this in more detail?
> 
> Also, no I don't remember what I said but I know how I feel about them.


Boy, I remember it. You told someone in the SIM section that we all have to take responsibility for our triggers. You really delivered an empowering message! 

Instead of just getting angry and reactive with other people for hurting our feelings with what they think and say, we can look at why it bothers us, especially on an emotional level. What fragilities of ours are possibly being revealed? How can we shore those up? How can our pain and fear (anger) be more positively channeled, basically be transformed and work for our healing? That is what I took your message to mean, anyway.

As to what I said earlier, I just think it helps us understand an issue better if we really examine why other people may hold a view opposite of ours. We may ultimately still believe our position to be the wiser one. But how can we really know if we do not thoughtfully consider the arguments against it?


----------



## Anon Pink

jld said:


> Boy, I remember it. You told someone in the SIM section that we all have to take responsibility for our triggers. You really delivered an empowering message!
> 
> Instead of just getting angry and reactive with other people for hurting our feelings with what they think and say, we can look at why it bothers us, especially on an emotional level. What fragilities of ours are possibly being revealed? How can we shore those up? How can our pain and fear (anger) be more positively channeled, basically be transformed and work for our healing? That is what I took your message to mean, anyway.
> 
> As to what I said earlier, I just think it helps us understand an issue better if we really examine why other people may hold a view opposite of ours. We may ultimately still believe our position to be the wiser one. But how can we really know if we do not thoughtfully consider the arguments against it?



As you know, I've been feeling very fragile lately so I really appreciate you posting that about triggers. It made me remember how strong I felt, how hopeful I felt. Maybe one day I can get back to that mind set. But even not being there now, I place the responsibility on me and how I've responded to circumstances. I wish I could blame others but even feeling down and hopeless I know this is my issue to fix. And that's the message people hate to hear. If you feel badly about yourself it's because of the way you think, which causes you to behave, which causes you to feel...etc. it's a nasty negative loop that is very difficult to get out of.

I agree that we should consider arguments contrary to how we feel. But I can consider arguments based on religious beliefs and other subjective reasoning. That doesn't mean emotions have no place in decisions, but we have to examine what those emotions are, where they came from, and really how rational are those emotions?


----------



## uhtred

I heard from a friend who visited Hamburg (where prostitution is legal). that there are very large, cheap, and what he thought were abusive brothels. OTOH he is very strongly opposed to prostitution so I don't know how valid the "abuse" was (he didn't visit the brothel himself).

The industry would need to be regulated carefully. Too much regulation and the legal places would only serve very wealthy clients and leave the illegal ones for the majority. Too little regulation and it could be as abusive as the present system sometimes is. 

Enough countries have legalized prostitution that it should be possible to do studies to see what works and what doesn't. 






jld said:


> I certainly agree!
> 
> This would be an interesting discussion to have in the political forum . . .
> 
> I am not sure what legalizing prositution would do if there were still cheaper, illegal possibilities. I remember reading an article years ago about prositutes in Western Europe complaining about competition from Eastern European women. Not sure how or if that was ever resolved.


----------



## NextTimeAround

uhtred said:


> I heard from a friend who visited Hamburg (where prostitution is legal). that there are very large, cheap, and what he thought were abusive brothels. OTOH he is very strongly opposed to prostitution so I don't know how valid the "abuse" was (he didn't visit the brothel himself).
> 
> The industry would need to be regulated carefully. Too much regulation and the legal places would only serve very wealthy clients and leave the illegal ones for the majority. Too little regulation and it could be as abusive as the present system sometimes is.
> 
> Enough countries have legalized prostitution that it should be possible to do studies to see what works and what doesn't.


Did someone mention brothels in Germany........ well, here's song for you:


----------



## wild jade

Anon Pink said:


> I apologize if I've been misunderstood, but putting women down has never been my intention. Don't scapegoat others for you yourself can't control. I am not even close to a perfect beauty and yet I feel perfectly beautiful because I want to feel beautiful.
> 
> Many years ago when I was deeply troubled by some weight gain, a lousy 30 pounds - went from a size 8 to size 14 and felt like the most hidious woman on the planet - I had to come to terms with my body because I hated hating myself. It does no good to scape goat advertisements or beauty magazines (none of which I've ever purchased ever) or movie stars... it was me that hated me so I had to stop hating me.
> 
> At size 6 I felt fat, at size 8 I felt fat. At size 14 my level of self loathing made me avoid all mirrors at all times. That's rediculous don't you think? The problem wasn't my weight, or what I wore, or what Hollywood would say about me. The problem was what I said and thought about me. I was the problem. I was my worst enemy, my harshest critic, my meanest girl friend. It was my hateful voice that put me down.
> 
> This is what women need to fight. Not external noise, but internal noise. If that makes you feel like I'm putting you down, then you have my pity. Sometimes the truth hurts.


Sorry if I misunderstood you, but I think you are also misunderstanding me. I agree with you that women do need to work on body image, and do need to stop self loathing and all of these things. Positive messages are much healthier!

I also think it only fair to recognize what is being faced. I don't raise these points as a pity party for myself, nor am I afraid of "the truth". The reality is that those messages are very, very loud. And if you have been shamed all your life it isn't actually all that unreasonable to point out where all of that shaming is happening. It isn't "just in your head", it's actually quite real. And it isn't just "internal noise". It's reinforced ad nauseum externally. That is why so many women won't go outside without "their face" or go through cosmetic surgery, or spend hours and dollars on endless beautification. Because of all the external noise that tells them our body hair is disgusting, our mastectomy scars are hideous, our graying hair makes us look old, our chipped nails makes us unfeminine, and on and on and yada and yada. 

That's all.


----------



## WorkingWife

EllisRedding said:


> One thing I have noticed in terms of body image, women seem to be the harshest critics of each other, which you could argue just further contributes to body image issues.


I think this is true. Just today I was at the Dr. and she commented that I was "very thin" and I thought - thin from the waist up, but have you seen my ass lately?

Anyhow, I was very surprised on TAM when someone did a poll of what body types the guys liked and they had pictures of women. I think the slender but curvy one may have ranked highest, but beyond that, I was floored by how many guys on here found women's bodies sexy where if I was carrying that much weight I'd be certain I looked fat and no one could want me.


----------



## southbound

Anon Pink said:


> soccermom2three said:
> 
> 
> 
> My husband and I know a couple. They have a 19 year old daughter and I remember her as a little girl kicking a soccer ball around. At 18 years old she started her "career" in porn. I'm pretty sure it's not about owning her sexuality.
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent this brings up something I've been pondering.
> 
> I'm assuming the girl you write about was raised, you believe, in some harmful way that damaged her? Or is she supporting a drug habit?
> 
> Essentially what you're saying is that because this girl was or is somehow damaged it thus invalidates her decision to enter the porn industry. How then do we as a civilized society screen for damaged individuals making choices that might harm themselves? Can we do that?
> 
> When Evil Knievel jumped 18 buses (or however many there were) we could assume the man was crazy and had a death wish. Only damaged people would expose themselves to such a risk of bodily injury or death.
> 
> What do you think?
Click to expand...

Although Evil Knievel might have been interesting for some people to watch, he certainly had something going on in the brain that was different from the average person. 

It would be nice to screen for people for choices that might harm them. I think that would be difficult to de, but even if we could, we currently live in a society that doesn't see anything wrong with most people's actions. 

I saw a person on a talk show the other day who said they didn't identify with either gender and would prefer to be addressed as they instead of he or she. This person and the host were discussing it all smiles just like they were discussing what makes the best apple pie.


----------



## Red Sonja

EllisRedding said:


> One thing I have noticed in terms of body image, women seem to be the harshest critics of each other, which you could argue just further contributes to body image issues.


IDK, thinking back *all *of the negative comments about my body or appearance have come from *males*. The comments were always unsolicited and most were inappropriate.

Of course, I have never associated with females who employ negative gossip toward others because I have always strongly disliked that type of behavior ... perhaps that is relative to my experience.


----------



## Anon Pink

wild jade said:


> Sorry if I misunderstood you, but I think you are also misunderstanding me. I agree with you that women do need to work on body image, and do need to stop self loathing and all of these things. Positive messages are much healthier!
> 
> I also think it only fair to recognize what is being faced. I don't raise these points as a pity party for myself, nor am I afraid of "the truth". The reality is that those messages are very, very loud. And if you have been shamed all your life it isn't actually all that unreasonable to point out where all of that shaming is happening. It isn't "just in your head", it's actually quite real. And it isn't just "internal noise". It's reinforced ad nauseum externally. That is why so many women won't go outside without "their face" or go through cosmetic surgery, or spend hours and dollars on endless beautification. Because of all the external noise that tells them our body hair is disgusting, our mastectomy scars are hideous, our graying hair makes us look old, our chipped nails makes us unfeminine, and on and on and yada and yada.
> 
> That's all.



Jade, I have heard and understood you. I was born and raised here in US and I was blessed with a hyper critical mother. I've heard the comments, I've heard discussions, I've seen the ads. Every woman born and raised in this country have been bombarded with everything you mention and some of us decide to write our own standards on beauty. I've been shamed by others but my worst critic was myself! That's why I had such a neurotic self image. No *matter what I saw in the mirror, it wasn't alright.*

I haven't changed the media, haven't changed the external noise, I'm older, got looser skin, and I'm heavier and yet I've never had a better self image and when I see myself in the mirror I am usually alright with what appears there.

I kind of feel like you're invalidating a woman's experience with her self image if she shaves, wears make up, colors her hair, and heaven forbid had cosmetic surgery. If she has done those things then she hasn't gone far in fixing her inner voice. Invalidate because if she has done all of that, it is because she has been shamed into doing it. 

I also make my husband shave his package and the patriarchy is silent on manscaping. I make him style his hair better. Why do I do that? Have I been shamed into forcing him to look a certain way? 

We all bath regularly and use deodorant. Why? We've been shamed for being stinky? Being stinky is a natural body process so why be ashamed? Am I buying into external noise because I bathe and use deodorant?

Yes, we all have to push back on false standards of beauty and what is happening today is fantastic. But I think we've gone too far when we are supposed to tell a morbidly obese woman that she looks fabulous. She looks unhealthy, not fabulous.



You can't quiet the external noise.


----------



## Anon Pink

southbound said:


> Although Evil Knievel might have been interesting for some people to watch, he certainly had something going on in the brain that was different from the average person.
> 
> It would be nice to screen for people for choices that might harm them. I think that would be difficult to de, but even if we could, we currently live in a society that doesn't see anything wrong with most people's actions.
> 
> I saw a person on a talk show the other day who said they didn't identify with either gender and would prefer to be addressed as they instead of he or she. This person and the host were discussing it all smiles just like they were discussing what makes the best apple pie.



I think he was just an adrenaline junkie. I'm pretty sure that's not brain damage. 

Do you think we should screen people for making decisions that might harm them? And then do what! How would we have ever learned to fly? Without risk taking, there is little gain, don't you agree!

The trouble the transgendered community faces, or one of the many to be accurate, is that there are so few of them that whenever they come out of the closet people are amazed at the oddity. This is an excellent documentary that explains the complicated science in understanding gender identity. I would encourage you to watch it because it was incredibly informative and I walked away with a much better understanding.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2017/02/03/katie-couric-gender-identity-natgeo-doc/97421704/


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> As you know, I've been feeling very fragile lately so I really appreciate you posting that about triggers. It made me remember how strong I felt, how hopeful I felt. Maybe one day I can get back to that mind set. But even not being there now, I place the responsibility on me and how I've responded to circumstances. I wish I could blame others but even feeling down and hopeless I know this is my issue to fix. And that's the message people hate to hear. If you feel badly about yourself it's because of the way you think, which causes you to behave, which causes you to feel...etc. it's a nasty negative loop that is very difficult to get out of.


A negative mental rut is definitely hard to climb out of! And it is empowering to take responsibility for our feelings, instead of waiting for someone else to make us feel better. That can make us dependent on them. And dependence, even on someone very trustworthy, can be a vulnerable place. 

And I am not even sure it works.

My husband has been telling me for decades now how much he loves my body. I will tell him all the things that are wrong with it, and his response invariably is to tell me how much he loves it, how beautiful he thinks it is, etc. And I respond by telling him he is crazy. We just see my body differently.

Maybe someday I will love my body. Maybe someday I will see it the way he does. It really is a shame I have bought so deeply into our cultural conditioning. It is very limited. I have denied myself a lot of peace by doing that.



> I agree that we should consider arguments contrary to how we feel. But I can consider arguments based on religious beliefs and other subjective reasoning. That doesn't mean emotions have no place in decisions, but we have to examine what those emotions are, where they came from, and really how rational are those emotions?


I hear you. I am concerned about religion or emotion as an exclusive basis for decision making, especially in politics.

I do think those elements can be inspirational. But wise decisions, to be sustainable, usually require a strong rational basis as well.


----------



## jld

uhtred said:


> I heard from a friend who visited Hamburg (where prostitution is legal). that there are very large, cheap, and what he thought were abusive brothels. OTOH he is very strongly opposed to prostitution so I don't know how valid the "abuse" was (he didn't visit the brothel himself).
> 
> The industry would need to be regulated carefully. Too much regulation and the legal places would only serve very wealthy clients and leave the illegal ones for the majority. Too little regulation and it could be as abusive as the present system sometimes is.
> 
> Enough countries have legalized prostitution that it should be possible to do studies to see what works and what doesn't.


I would have to read more about the pros and cons of this issue to have a real grasp on it. I would not want to support anything that would make vulnerable populations even more vulnerable.


----------



## wild jade

Anon Pink said:


> Jade, I have heard and understood you. I was born and raised here in US and I was blessed with a hyper critical mother. I've heard the comments, I've heard discussions, I've seen the ads. Every woman born and raised in this country have been bombarded with everything you mention and some of us decide to write our own standards on beauty. I've been shamed by others but my worst critic was myself! That's why I had such a neurotic self image. No *matter what I saw in the mirror, it wasn't alright.*
> 
> I haven't changed the media, haven't changed the external noise, I'm older, got looser skin, and I'm heavier and yet I've never had a better self image and when I see myself in the mirror I am usually alright with what appears there.
> 
> I kind of feel like you're invalidating a woman's experience with her self image if she shaves, wears make up, colors her hair, and heaven forbid had cosmetic surgery. If she has done those things then she hasn't gone far in fixing her inner voice. Invalidate because if she has done all of that, it is because she has been shamed into doing it.
> 
> I also make my husband shave his package and the patriarchy is silent on manscaping. I make him style his hair better. Why do I do that? Have I been shamed into forcing him to look a certain way?
> 
> We all bath regularly and use deodorant. Why? We've been shamed for being stinky? Being stinky is a natural body process so why be ashamed? Am I buying into external noise because I bathe and use deodorant?
> 
> Yes, we all have to push back on false standards of beauty and what is happening today is fantastic. But I think we've gone too far when we are supposed to tell a morbidly obese woman that she looks fabulous. She looks unhealthy, not fabulous.
> 
> 
> 
> *You can't quiet the external noise.*


Exactly. You can't quiet the external noise. And when push comes to shove a lot of us aren't fabulous, we're too fat or too stinky or too scruffy. And so it's all mixed messages. Think of yourself as fabulous. But oops sorry, not you because you're too X. Oh and not you over there because you're too Y. 

I don't disagree with your point about positive self image, Anon Pink. Just to me a lot of it is platitude because so few people really mean it. 

At any rate, I saw your OP as a kind of invalidation of the very real obstacles that women face in developing a healthy image, and I just thought it worthwhile to point out just how real they are. When virtually all women spend the amount of time and money we do to conform more closely to a media image of beauty, then I think it's actually pretty reasonable to blame media and external sources.

Doesn't mean there's also a ton of internal work to do to. And I get that. But really, our society is pretty twisted in the way that it views women's bodies. At least, IMHO.


----------



## heartsbeating

Anon Pink said:


> As you know, I've been feeling very fragile lately so I really appreciate you posting that about triggers. It made me remember how strong I felt, how hopeful I felt. Maybe one day I can get back to that mind set.


Can you accept you might not get back to that mindset? 

Could it instead be a version of self you remember fondly while recognizing you have changed... and the you now is who you need to be for right now?


----------



## heartsbeating

EllisRedding said:


> One thing I have noticed in terms of body image, women seem to be the harshest critics of each other, which you could argue just further contributes to body image issues.
> 
> As you can tell by my avatar, I own my sexuality >


I've experienced the opposite; women who shrug off potential body issues in favor of focusing on what's really important in their lives. There's pride in appearance balanced with healthy perspective. It's grounding to be surrounded by women like this. 

I felt funky about my weight this week all of my own accord. I mentioned to a couple of women. They don't care how I look however they did encourage (and support) me to get more active again.

There was a rare moment recently that I experienced a woman being critical. She looked me up and down, then questioned and commented on my outfit in such a way that it seemed less about my appearance and more about her insecure need to assert some kind of dominance. I'm not a threat and she's not to me, so my inner dialogue reaction was simply 'Eh..'


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> Exactly. You can't quiet the external noise. And when push comes to shove a lot of us aren't fabulous, we're too fat or too stinky or too scruffy. And so it's all mixed messages. Think of yourself as fabulous. But oops sorry, not you because you're too X. Oh and not you over there because you're too Y.
> 
> I don't disagree with your point about positive self image, Anon Pink. Just to me a lot of it is platitude because so few people really mean it.
> 
> At any rate, I saw your OP as a kind of invalidation of the very real obstacles that women face in developing a healthy image, and I just thought it worthwhile to point out just how real they are. When virtually all women spend the amount of time and money we do to conform more closely to a media image of beauty, then I think it's actually pretty reasonable to blame media and external sources.
> 
> Doesn't mean there's also a ton of internal work to do to. And I get that. But really, our society is pretty twisted in the way that it views women's bodies. At least, IMHO.


You are a thoughtful person, jade. What do you think could help us develop a healthier self image?


----------



## Anon Pink

heartsbeating said:


> Can you accept you might not get back to that mindset?
> 
> Could it instead be a version of self you remember fondly while recognizing you have changed... and the you now is who you need to be for right now?


Hmmmm, that's complicated. I don't know if I can accept that I might not get back to that mindset. I dont think the current me ... I just don't know. To just accept this me because for right now it's who I need to be... mind overload. Probably I think maybe you might be right. To switch mentally and hold an image of me healing, resting so healing happens, instead of me seeking solitude and distance and seeking numbness. I have to think on this.
@wild jade 

Yes I think we've reached an accord because I feel like I understand your POV better now. I think I've been insensitive and I apologize.


----------



## uhtred

I expect he loves your body. I love my wife's body - she is in her 50s, had a partial mastectomy, etc, but I still love her body. When I see her I feel love and desire, I know there are flaws, but I don't notice them. 






jld said:


> A negative mental rut is definitely hard to climb out of! And it is empowering to take responsibility for our feelings, instead of waiting for someone else to make us feel better. That can make us dependent on them. And dependence, even on someone very trustworthy, can be a vulnerable place.
> 
> And I am not even sure it works.
> 
> My husband has been telling me for decades now how much he loves my body. I will tell him all the things that are wrong with it, and his response invariably is to tell me how much he loves it, how beautiful he thinks it is, etc. And I respond by telling him he is crazy. We just see my body differently.
> 
> Maybe someday I will love my body. Maybe someday I will see it the way he does. It really is a shame I have bought so deeply into our cultural conditioning. It is very limited. I have denied myself a lot of peace by doing that.
> 
> 
> 
> I hear you. I am concerned about religion or emotion as an exclusive basis for decision making, especially in politics.
> 
> I do think those elements can be inspirational. But wise decisions, to be sustainable, usually require a strong rational basis as well.


----------



## jld

uhtred said:


> I expect he loves your body. I love my wife's body - she is in her 50s, had a partial mastectomy, etc, but I still love her body. When I see her I feel love and desire, I know there are flaws, but I don't notice them.


I don't doubt his sincerity. And I definitely feel his desire for me. I just do not understand why he feels that lust for a body that seems very inadequate to me. 

And that incomprehension is undoubtedly thanks to my cultural conditioning.


----------



## uhtred

He cares about YOU not your body. 

How do you feel about his body? I assume he is not Adonis come to earth, but just a guy that you love, with a normal body with the usual set of flaws. 

We are all conditioned by culture to worry about how we look and how we act, what we should be attracted to. 



jld said:


> I don't doubt his sincerity. And I definitely feel his desire for me. I just do not understand why he feels that lust for a body that seems very inadequate to me.
> 
> And that incomprehension is undoubtedly thanks to my cultural conditioning.


----------



## jld

uhtred said:


> He cares about YOU not your body.
> 
> How do you feel about his body? I assume he is not Adonis come to earth, but just a guy that you love, with a normal body with the usual set of flaws.
> 
> We are all conditioned by culture to worry about how we look and how we act, what we should be attracted to.


He definitely loves my spirit, my essence. But he also really loves my body. He genuinely gets excited by it. 

I think his body is beautiful, too. Dug is tall and strong. I am very attracted to him, both physically and emotionally.

We are probably both just in a fog about each other. Objectively we are nothing special. But to each other, we are very special.


----------



## uhtred

That "fog" is called love. Its exactly how it should be. It means that you can stay attracted to each other for the rest of your lives.





jld said:


> snip
> 
> We are probably both just in a fog about each other. Objectively we are nothing special. But to each other, we are very special.


----------



## wild jade

Anon Pink said:


> @wild jade
> 
> Yes I think we've reached an accord because I feel like I understand your POV better now. I think I've been insensitive and I apologize.


No worries! I'm a bit of a tank, and forget that others are not sometimes. So my apologies too!


----------



## wild jade

jld said:


> You are a thoughtful person, jade. What do you think could help us develop a healthier self image?


I can only answer for myself on this one. But for me, I am happiest when I avoid mirrors as much as possible. And I resist all and any suggestions about how I should look, dress, groom myself -- at least as much as possible. Take me as I am, or, oh well, tough.

That makes me sound more hardline than I am, because I do dress professionally enough for work, and clean myself up to "fit in" with what society thinks that I should look like/be. I also genuinely enjoy clothes and fabrics, and arty things.

But like the women that @heartsbeating was commenting on, I don't invest much of my self esteem in my looks. And I don't cater to guys' whims, period. Full stop. Don't care what you find hot. If it ain't me, move on to one of the other 3 billion women on the planet. Both of us will be better off if you do. 

The solutions that work for me wouldn't work for a lot of other women, I get that. And even then, it's not like I don't struggle with the mixed messages and the temptations to self loathing for being "not enough." What saves me is that I am also, like I said, a bit of a tank. Want to ride with me? Only if you can keep up!


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> I can only answer for myself on this one. But for me, I am happiest when I avoid mirrors as much as possible. And I resist all and any suggestions about how I should look, dress, groom myself -- at least as much as possible. Take me as I am, or, oh well, tough.
> 
> That makes me sound more hardline than I am, because I do dress professionally enough for work, and clean myself up to "fit in" with what society thinks that I should look like/be. I also genuinely enjoy clothes and fabrics, and arty things.
> 
> But like the women that @heartsbeating was commenting on, I don't invest much of my self esteem in my looks. And I don't cater to guys' whims, period. Full stop. Don't care what you find hot. If it ain't me, move on to one of the other 3 billion women on the planet. Both of us will be better off if you do.
> 
> The solutions that work for me wouldn't work for a lot of other women, I get that. And even then, it's not like I don't struggle with the mixed messages and the temptations to self loathing for being "not enough." What saves me is that I am also, like I said, a bit of a tank. Want to ride with me? Only if you can keep up!


This all sounds very healthy. 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, jade.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Anon Pink said:


> No one would bat an eye at a man who had sex with a different woman every night.


 Just not always true....there may be far fewer of us today, but some still care....and we don't have to be religious stuffy fundamentalists to feel this way either.. 

For those who attaches the emotional with sharing their bodies, whether something in us is wired this way or we just long for it in our own lives, relationships, where sex is so much more than just a physical release, it's like a spiritual bonding even....the act of sex holds very special meaning, reassurance, and love... 

If a man can just stick his member in a different woman every couple days or whatever...this would be very distasteful to us... ..What really would we have in common?? Very different lifestyles, to what we seek for fulfillment , happiness.....


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> Just not always true....there may be far fewer of us today, but some still care....and we don't have to be religious stuffy fundamentalists to feel this way either..
> 
> For those who attaches the emotional with sharing their bodies, whether something in us is wired this way or we just long for it in our own lives, relationships, where sex is so much more than just a physical release, it's like a spiritual bonding even....the act of sex holds very special meaning, reassurance, and love...
> 
> If a man can just stick his member in a different woman every couple days or whatever...this would be very distasteful to us... ..What really would we have in common?? Very different lifestyles, to what we seek for fulfillment , happiness.....


I see it this way, too. I would be very concerned to be with a man with a high partner count, especially a different partner every night.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> He definitely loves my spirit, my essence. But he also really loves my body. He genuinely gets excited by it.
> 
> I think his body is beautiful, too. Dug is tall and strong. I am very attracted to him, both physically and emotionally.
> 
> *We are probably both just in a fog about each other. Objectively we are nothing special. But to each other, we are very special.*


I love this post.. this is the







of it... I've been wanting to do a thread on "Idealism" in marriage... it's what you speak here .. and it's a blessing to any marriage, not to mention the sex life !

Suddenly match any of us with someone new, with no history, shared memories, the laughter & the hard times & bedroom antics .... we wouldn't be much of anything special at all... but to our loved ones who've been there to wipe our tears, or fell madly in love with us way back then.. these feelings stay with us.. they become a part of us even .. our story.... we ARE the most precious thing on this earth TO THEM...their jewel, a beauty... it's like "coming home"... 

I remember as a little girl (always analyzing).... I'd hear someone going on how they have "The BEST Grandmother in the world" ...things spoken like this....the highest praising comments of a loved one... I remember thinking to myself... "well that's surely a BOLD statement...no one can say that ! Endless Grandmothers have lived & Died"....I mean I am sure she is wonderful & all..... but "the BEST"...that's craziness... 

What I realized years later....is this blessing of "Idealism".. that Love/ attachment does this to us, we are speaking the truth, our truth ... that yes...this woman was "the best Grandmother a girl could have"...she was very special, set apart, there is no other like her...

It's how we feel about this person who has enhanced our lives..... a little fog isn't always bad...


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> I love this post.. this is the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> of it... *I've been wanting to do a thread on "Idealism" in marriage*... it's what you speak here .. and it's a blessing to any marriage, not to mention the sex life !
> 
> Suddenly match any of us with someone new, with no history, shared memories, the laughter & the hard times & bedroom antics .... we wouldn't be much of anything special at all... but to our loved ones who've been there to wipe our tears, or fell madly in love with us way back then.. these feelings stay with us.. they become a part of us even .. our story.... we ARE the most precious thing on this earth TO THEM...their jewel, a beauty... it's like "coming home"...
> 
> I remember as a little girl (always analyzing).... I'd hear someone going on how they have "The BEST Grandmother in the world" ...things spoken like this....the highest praising comments of a loved one... I remember thinking to myself... "well that's surely a BOLD statement...no one can say that ! Endless Grandmothers have lived & Died"....I mean I am sure she is wonderful & all..... but "the BEST"...that's craziness... .
> 
> What I realized years later....is this blessing of "Idealism".. that indeed Love/ attachment does this to us, we are speaking the truth, our truth ... that indeed.. this special woman was "the best Grandmother a girl could have"...she was very special, set apart, there is no other like her...
> 
> It's how we feel about this person who has enhanced our lives..... a little fog isn't always bad...


I can't wait for that thread!


----------



## notmyrealname4

Anon Pink said:


> Elinor Roosevelt is quoted as saying, "_*No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.*_"


fwiw, it's "Eleanor"



I am against porn because, naively and unrealistically; I think that sex is different from everything else. It's something singular and special. If I have to explain, you won't understand. Just like I can't understand when people are okay with prostitution, and it's sibling-- pornography.

If I'm a laughingstock, so be it. I don't know how else to be.



Germany's legalization of prostitution has been a fail for the prostitutes (who-da thunk?):| Not, of course, for the brothel owners and the government (huge tax revenues).


Germany Has Become the Cut-Rate Prostitution Capital of the World | TIME.com



> Typically, the stories involve young women from Romania and Bulgaria who were unwittingly duped into coming to Germany, where they were forced to service dozens of men daily in flat-rate deals where customers can have all the sex they want for an allotted time period, starting at just €49 (around $65).


Germany experiencing brothel boom, but is prostitution safer? | New York Post



> “One brothel owner told me it can be hard to make money, and for every woman unwilling to perform something risky (such as not insisting on the man using a condom) there’s another willing to try it,” he said.



Germany's mega-brothel left me cold




> It’s not what Chancellor Gerhard Schröder’s Social Democrat-Green coalition had in mind when they celebrated their liberal new law. They were hoping for employment contracts, health insurance, pension plans – not motorway stops crammed with grubby caravans whose red lights flash, all day, every day, at anyone stopping for a loo break.





> I saw enough pale and hairy middle-aged man flesh in Paradise to last me a lifetime. But, after the initial shock of the nudity, the scene quickly became banal. What stayed with me throughout my week-long trip to Germany’s brothels and red-light districts, was a sense of my own good fortune at not being faced with the same decisions as these women.





> Employment contracts have failed to materialise. “Nobody employs prostitutes in Germany,” Paradise’s manager, Michael Beretin, told me. Instead, the brothels rent rooms to sex workers by the day. “Pascha’s main income is the rent we get from the girls,” explained Hermann Müller, the manager of Pascha. (Women pay €175 for 24 hours’ use of a room at Pascha. They need to sleep with at least four men to break even.)



https://humanrightssociety.org/2014...lization-of-prostitution-went-horribly-wrong/




> Paradise’s Rudloff appeared in a documentary about prostitution in Germany last summer. In one scene he’s sitting in his spacious kitchen surrounded by his four shiny-haired, privately educated children. *Would he be happy for either of his two daughters to work at Paradise, the interviewer asks.
> 
> Rudloff turns puce. ”Unthinkable, unthinkable,” he says.* ”I don’t mean to offend the prostitutes, but I try to raise my children so that they have professional opportunities. Most prostitutes don’t have those options. That’s why they’re doing that job.”
> 
> He pauses and looks away. ”Unimaginable,” he repeats. ”I don’t even want to think about it.””



^^^This quote is from a brothel owner when asked if he would want HIS daughters to work in a brothel: very enlightening.



There's quite a bit of snobbery here with regards to maids and farm workers. I have been a maid and a housekeeper. I enjoyed it far more than being a data-entry operator, or a receptionist, or an accounts-payable file clerk. My ego or sense of self was not compromised. I felt actual accomplishment at entering dirty, disordered rooms and doing my thing to make them look pristine again. Working in an office has always made me feel that I am on a mental treadmill, never getting anywhere or seeing any results. I felt like a failure working in an office. I felt needed and valuable being a housekeeper. I felt none of the supposed shame and humiliation that I was apparently expected to feel, according to the viewpoint: "that's work that no white American would ever want to do". Or to paraphrase Anon Pink "who'd aspire to be a hotel maid"?

I realize that some people will try to draw a parallel between my enjoyment of being a maid; and women working as sex-workers.




As noted earlier in my post; I see sex as something special and that should not be corrupted. I seem to be unable to explain that to other people; unless they share the same view. In which case I don't need to explain.


And I love being thin, and grooming my body. I think everyone looks better thinner: man, woman and child. Not all women feel comfortable or happy being fat or padded. And I'm not this way because of the patriarchy or Anna Wintour. The current big butt thing eludes me. If every guy in the world, including my husband, said they preferred a Kim Kardashian figure; I would still commit to being as thin and as lean as possible.

So there


----------



## jld

That is a very powerful post, nmrn. It does not sound like legalized prostitution went the way some thought it would.

Very discouraging that that father would accept for other women what he would not want for his own daughters.


----------



## uhtred

It does sound like legalized prostitution in Germany has gone badly - but could it be fixed? A lot of what is going on seems to be the result of badly written legislation. 

Its also not clear that it is worse than what came before - prostitution, at least at the low end, has been a very ugly business for a long time. 


A final very tricky problem - the women who come from poor areas and make much more money as prostitutes than they did at home. In the cases where they are not being coerced, should they be able to make that choice. (Obviously there should be very severe punishments for any form of coercion). 



notmyrealname4 said:


> fwiw, it's "Eleanor"
> 
> 
> 
> I am against porn because, naively and unrealistically; I think that sex is different from everything else. It's something singular and special. If I have to explain, you won't understand. Just like I can't understand when people are okay with prostitution, and it's sibling-- pornography.
> 
> If I'm a laughingstock, so be it. I don't know how else to be.
> 
> 
> 
> Germany's legalization of prostitution has been a fail for the prostitutes (who-da thunk?):| Not, of course, for the brothel owners and the government (huge tax revenues).
> 
> 
> Germany Has Become the Cut-Rate Prostitution Capital of the World | TIME.com
> 
> 
> 
> Germany experiencing brothel boom, but is prostitution safer? | New York Post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Germany's mega-brothel left me cold
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://humanrightssociety.org/2014...lization-of-prostitution-went-horribly-wrong/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^This quote is from a brothel owner when asked if he would want HIS daughters to work in a brothel: very enlightening.
> 
> 
> 
> There's quite a bit of snobbery here with regards to maids and farm workers. I have been a maid and a housekeeper. I enjoyed it far more than being a data-entry operator, or a receptionist, or an accounts-payable file clerk. My ego or sense of self was not compromised. I felt actual accomplishment at entering dirty, disordered rooms and doing my thing to make them look pristine again. Working in an office has always made me feel that I am on a mental treadmill, never getting anywhere or seeing any results. I felt like a failure working in an office. I felt needed and valuable being a housekeeper. I felt none of the supposed shame and humiliation that I was apparently expected to feel, according to the viewpoint: "that's work that no white American would ever want to do". Or to paraphrase Anon Pink "who'd aspire to be a hotel maid"?
> 
> I realize that some people will try to draw a parallel between my enjoyment of being a maid; and women working as sex-workers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As noted earlier in my post; I see sex as something special and that should not be corrupted. I seem to be unable to explain that to other people; unless they share the same view. In which case I don't need to explain.
> 
> 
> And I love being thin, and grooming my body. I think everyone looks better thinner: man, woman and child. Not all women feel comfortable or happy being fat or padded. And I'm not this way because of the patriarchy or Anna Wintour. The current big butt thing eludes me. If every guy in the world, including my husband, said they preferred a Kim Kardashian figure; I would still commit to being as thin and as lean as possible.
> 
> So there


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## notmyrealname4

uhtred said:


> It does sound like legalized prostitution in Germany has gone badly - but could it be fixed? A lot of what is going on seems to be the result of badly written legislation.
> 
> Its also not clear that it is worse than what came before - prostitution, at least at the low end, has been a very ugly business for a long time.
> 
> 
> A final very tricky problem - the women who come from poor areas and make much more money as prostitutes than they did at home. In the cases where they are not being coerced, should they be able to make that choice. (Obviously there should be very severe punishments for any form of coercion).





I don't know. Hand me a barf bag; and I'll get back to you later.


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## NextTimeAround

What bothers me when I watch movies that dramatize prostitution is how they show prostitutes negotiating very business like all this activity that is, well, meant to be personal and intimate.


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## EllisRedding

NextTimeAround said:


> What bothers me when I watch movies that dramatize prostitution is how they show prostitutes negotiating very business like all this activity that is, well, meant to be personal and intimate.


What about the plumber who is just going there to fit a leak? Or the pizza delivery guy who probably lost his job b/c he was late delivering the rest of his pizzas???


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## NextTimeAround

EllisRedding said:


> What about the plumber who is just going there to fit a leak? Or the pizza delivery guy who probably lost his job b/c he was late delivering the rest of his pizzas???


Portrayals like that are meant to play down the dysfunction of prostitution.


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## notmyrealname4

NextTimeAround said:


> Portrayals like that are meant to play down the dysfunction of prostitution.



I agree Next.

But as I referenced in my posts; there is a major disconnect somewhere between people who see sex as just something else that can be bought and sold. And those who see sex as something apart and special----a uniquely intimate aspect of being human.

I can't even begin to compare selling my body to strangers for sex; to delivering pizzas or fixing plumbing.

But some people can.


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## EllisRedding

Yikes ... guess some people didn't pick up on the fact that the plumber/pizza man comments were made in jest lol ...


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## jld

Because it is such a humorous topic . . .


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## NextTimeAround

EllisRedding said:


> Yikes ... guess some people didn't pick up on the fact that the plumber/pizza man comments were made in jest lol ...



I tried looking for Cheech and Chong's Upin smoke. they make the ironic joke in the movie in which the pizza delivery man says "here's the pizza, here's the pepperoni,".......... and a white couple who is watching the porno film in the cinma leaves because the husband is affronted by having to watch a black man have sex with a white woman. His wife of course is breathing heavy.......

that was late '70s.


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## EllisRedding

jld said:


> Because it is such a humorous topic . . .














NextTimeAround said:


> I tried looking for Cheech and Chong's Upin smoke. they make the ironic joke in the movie in which the pizza delivery man says "here's the pizza, here's the pepperoni,".......... and a white couple who is watching the porno film in the cinma leaves because the husband is affronted by having to watch a black man have sex with a white woman. His wife of course is breathing heavy.......
> 
> that was late '70s.


Yeah, I doubt (at least I would hope so) anyone signed up to be a plumber or pizza delivery guy thinking it would get them laid more  Add pool boy to the mix as well.


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