# Wife wont back down EVER



## saddomaddo (Feb 1, 2009)

Its getting silly now....

Usually we argue, and OK I can give as good as her and be out of order. Then I calm down, realise what I did wrong.

She will never EVER see that shes done anything wrong EVER. I end up then apologising for what I did because I've just had enough of arguing.
Which then makes me feel like Im letting myself down a bit.

Thing is if I left it to her we'd never make up EVER. We'd end up getting divorced. I know some of you are going to say yep ditch the *****.

BUT after 20 years of marriage. 2 kids (one whos only young). I'd end up financially way worse off when she screws every penny out of me, living in some ****hole on my own while she keeps the house, and then fighting to get to even see my kids. Last resort option this would be.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Think about this: some women are narcissistic jerks just like men. My ex said she's sorry once in 18 years. She was NEVER in the wrong! Do you have one of those? If so, give it up and stay and be miserable, or leave and be miserable for a while and get better.

If not, think about this. I have learned that women and men are different. (an epiphany, right?) They get angry about how you made them FEEL, whether you're in the right or NOT. You've got to listen to your wife, and think about how what you've done or how you reacted made her FEEL. She won't validate your anger over being treated wrongly, until you validate her FEELINGS that were a result of you in some crazy way.
Men want to explain the logic of how one or the other person was in the wrong, and men want the person that has committed the wrong to apologize. It's not happening with a woman, because most of the time they don't feel heard because you don't understand why her feelings were hurt. You are more focused on the logic of why you're right and she's wrong. She may be wrong, but until you let her know you understand why her feelings are hurt--- no chance of an apology.

If it's PMS time, then get the APP for keeping up with her schedule, so you're prepared. Women really do get a little crazy sometimes, and nothing you do can possibly be right.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

How's the sex? If it's great, then I'd keep working on it. If you say "What sex?", then I'd divorce her. She gets 50%, no more if you don't let her. So you won't be poor. A lot of us here, me included, have been through a divorce and let me tell you... the joke "Why is a divorce so expensive?" "Because it's fcking worth it!!" is so true. Don't stay in a miserable marriage just because of kids or money or things. Your happiness and sanity is worth more than all of those things by a long shot.


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## saddomaddo (Feb 1, 2009)

Evinrude58 said:


> Think about this: some women are narcissistic jerks just like men. My ex said she's sorry once in 18 years. She was NEVER in the wrong! Do you have one of those? If so, give it up and stay and be miserable, or leave and be miserable for a while and get better.
> 
> If not, think about this. I have learned that women and men are different. (an epiphany, right?) They get angry about how you made them FEEL, whether you're in the right or NOT. You've got to listen to your wife, and think about how what you've done or how you reacted made her FEEL. She won't validate your anger over being treated wrongly, until you validate her FEELINGS that were a result of you in some crazy way.
> Men want to explain the logic of how one or the other person was in the wrong, and men want the person that has committed the wrong to apologize. It's not happening with a woman, because most of the time they don't feel heard because you don't understand why her feelings were hurt. You are more focused on the logic of why you're right and she's wrong. She may be wrong, but until you let her know you understand why her feelings are hurt--- no chance of an apology.
> ...


Think you've got some good idea here.

Today for instance, it was money. Again shes been out spending when we agreed together for her to calm it down.

BUT Im in the wrong and its all my fault because I shouted at here. The initial issue seems all forgotten because its all my fault again.


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## saddomaddo (Feb 1, 2009)

GuyInColorado said:


> How's the sex? If it's great, then I'd keep working on it. If you say "What sex?", then I'd divorce her. She gets 50%, no more if you don't let her. So you won't be poor. A lot of us here, me included, have been through a divorce and let me tell you... the joke "Why is a divorce so expensive?" "Because it's fcking worth it!!" is so true. Don't stay in a miserable marriage just because of kids or money or things. Your happiness and sanity is worth more than all of those things by a long shot.


What sex? lol. Yeh but its a big step.....


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## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

Was she always like this? Maybe you can 180, not divorce, and just work on finding meaning in your life. Are you open to counselling? What Evinrude said is top-notch.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

saddomaddo said:


> Think you've got some good idea here.
> 
> Today for instance, it was money. Again shes been out spending when we agreed together for her to calm it down.
> 
> BUT Im in the wrong and its all my fault because I shouted at here. The initial issue seems all forgotten because its all my fault again.


Do you often shout at her?


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## saddomaddo (Feb 1, 2009)

EunuchMonk said:


> Was she always like this? Maybe you can 180, not divorce, and just work on finding meaning in your life. Are you open to counselling? What Evinrude said is top-notch.


180?


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## saddomaddo (Feb 1, 2009)

Fozzy said:


> Do you often shout at her?


Nothing too bad. I dont really shout to be honest. Its like in your face abuse or anything.if thats what your thinking.

Tonight it was a case of "You've been spending again. What did we discuss? Can you seriously not spend for just one day? We're not going to have any money".

Then later it was "look we have to sort this out. This is the final straw. If I have to cancel the credit cards I will".

OK. Some of it was a bit much especially the credit card thing. And first off her mother was there - I should have bitten my tongue and had a quiet word later. I was just so mad that two days ago we'd discussed cutting down and she agreed and she'd been out today and been spending again.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

let me guess....OP your wife wont back down and wont let up unitl she "puts you in your place" and you end up apologizing? is she the type that even when logically proven wrong changes the subject and makes you out to be wrong in some other way?

if she is the narc type (which is what this is)...i doubt the 180 will work.....what will happen is she will resort to more desperate tactics to get under your skin. how far those tactics go depending on how sociopathic she really is.

run for the hills bro.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

saddomaddo said:


> Nothing too bad. I dont really shout to be honest. Its like in your face abuse or anything.if thats what your thinking.
> 
> Tonight it was a case of "You've been spending again. What did we discuss? Can you seriously not spend for just one day? We're not going to have any money".
> 
> ...


got it.

you two had spoken about cutting back....two days later she's out spending....I assume wants, not "needs".......

YOU are the bad guy for bringing it, or at the wrong time, or in the wrong way.

this will only get worse.


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## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

saddomaddo said:


> 180?


Well you will have to change it a little to suit your situation since you are not dealing with infidelity. But the detaching part I think can help you. Maybe you won't get into these back and forths with her if your focus is elsewhere.

Here:
https://beingabeautifulmess.wordpress.com/the-180/

Rule 1, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18, 20, 22, 23, 24, 25, 27, 28, 29, 31, 32, and 33 in particular.


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

saddomaddo said:


> Its getting silly now....
> 
> Usually we argue, and OK I can give as good as her and be out of order. Then I calm down, realise what I did wrong.
> 
> ...


I think it's often human nature to resist change until the cost to maintain exceeds the cost for the change. Whether it's divorce or two people genuinely attempting to work out differences. 

I think I understand and I'm sorry for what you're going through.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

saddomaddo said:


> Think you've got some good idea here.
> 
> Today for instance, it was money. Again shes been out spending when we agreed together for her to calm it down.
> 
> BUT Im in the wrong and its all my fault because I shouted at here. The initial issue seems all forgotten because its all my fault again.


Why are you shouting?

How can you have a rational conversation when you are not being rational?


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Jeebus, just cut up the credit cards and cancel them. Make sure your name isn't on any joint credit cards. That's the first step to separation.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I'm not married so fwiw, your wife sounds manipulative, but your relationship just from the little you share here, sounds like a father and teenage daughter, not equal partners in a marriage. Until that gets fixed, you will continue to have these issues.


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

saddomaddo said:


> What sex? lol. Yeh but its a big step.....


And her friends are saying to her, "how's the money? If you can spend and travel as you like, maybe you just stay?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

Keep in mind we have one side of this story. So, I can only ask the OP things, so here goes:

1. Do you stick to a single topic when you have a conflict, or are you all over the map? If the latter, who takes it off topic? To be successful, you should really address one issue at a time.

2. Do you stonewall, turn passive aggressive, or get defensive rather than handle an issue directly?

3. Are you the leader of your marriage in that you keep your head about you even when she's losing hers?

4. Do you listen to her issues or do you say, "you do that, too," or "let me tell you something I'm not happy about?" 

Most of the above is about being heard. Now, if she's a decent woman who just needs to be heard and you are derailing her attempts, then you have to make some changes. If, on the other hand, you are trying and she's still beating her drum, then that's entirely different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## saddomaddo (Feb 1, 2009)

x598 said:


> got it.
> 
> you two had spoken about cutting back....two days later she's out spending....I assume wants, not "needs".......
> 
> ...


In her head they are needs I think. Her needs list is like no other on earth.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

So, if I understand correctly, you started an argument about her spending in front of her mother, and are surprised that she reacted badly to that and couldn't have a calm, rational discussion about it?

Yes, you do need to pick your times better. That was bad form. The shouting didn't help.

You can't ambush her and then expect her to calmly and reasonably discuss a difficult subject that she already feels defensive about.

Best thing would be to apologize for starting that with her mom there, and for shouting. And then tell her that it's still also important to talk about how to limit spending and sticking to a budget.

If this is typical, your approach may be contributing to this dynamic you hate of her never admitting fault. The way you start discussions when you're upset could be sparking her defensive reactions, which lead to her never looking at her own behavior...she's reacting to yours. 

Change your part of the pattern and she has to change hers.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

saddomaddo said:


> In her head they are needs I think. Her needs list is like no other on earth.


Sounds like you go along to get along. Forget the talking, reasoning and negotiation. They only work when there a two willing parties. You don't seem to have that. The simple and only solution is to draw a line in the sand. You sound like you need her permission but she doesn't need yours. Quit acting like you're just adrift in the current with no control. You've either got to do it or keep putting up with what's dished out.


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## saddomaddo (Feb 1, 2009)

norajane said:


> So, if I understand correctly, you started an argument about her spending in front of her mother, and are surprised that she reacted badly to that and couldn't have a calm, rational discussion about it?
> 
> Yes, you do need to pick your times better. That was bad form. The shouting didn't help.
> 
> ...


Yes I agree. I went about it all wrong.

Im aware I have issues where I cant wait. If something is annoying me I've got to sort it there and then.

I have apologised for shouting and for the way I went about it with her mother there. This am I apologised to her mother too.

Like you said, this initial thing has deflected the blame onto me now rather than the main issue.

Shes now speaking to me. I was in the spare bed last night. We;ll see how she is tonight.


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## saddomaddo (Feb 1, 2009)

Begin again said:


> Keep in mind we have one side of this story. So, I can only ask the OP things, so here goes:
> 
> 1. Do you stick to a single topic when you have a conflict, or are you all over the map? If the latter, who takes it off topic? To be successful, you should really address one issue at a time.
> 
> ...


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

I don't get a clear picture based on your response above, but it does sound to me like you've some things to work on.

I'm not saying she's not being extremely stubborn. In fact, if my husband came on these boards he would probably describe me in a similar way for much/most of our marriage. Except that wasn't the woman he married. He married a woman who was open and honest and wanted to work through issues together. But he grew up where nothing of importance was discussed. So our styles of handling problems clashed badly. And he became more passive aggressive and avoidant as I became more angry and resentful.

The sad part is that we no longer live together and he now wants me back. The anger and resentment have gone and he sees the girl he married. But I can't go back to what was. 

In the end, I'm always curious to know if the person an OP describes is the one he/she married. If so, then there's likely little hope for improvement. But if they changed, then you need to ask why.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

One additional thing - based on your writing and spelling, I'm guessing you are British? I believe Brits have an especially hard time speaking directly regarding their wants and needs due to their culture. If so, I encourage you to work on that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Tell her that the credit card debt scares you and that you need to do this as a team.

Ask her why she went out and spent more money; when 2 days earlier, she agreed not to.

Yeah, don't shout or raise your voice; that will lead nowhere.

Contrary to what some others here believe; women can be completely logical and reasonable. Especially in dealing with money. So, unless your wife has a learning disability, or something like that----she's perfectly able to understand staying within a budget and paying down CC's, and why it's important to do so.


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## saddomaddo (Feb 1, 2009)

Begin again said:


> One additional thing - based on your writing and spelling, I'm guessing you are British? I believe Brita have an especially hard time speaking directly regarding their wants and needs. If so, I encourage you to work on that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep uk


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## saddomaddo (Feb 1, 2009)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Tell her that the credit card debt scares you and that you need to do this as a team.
> 
> Ask her why she went out and spent more money; when 2 days earlier, she agreed not to.
> 
> ...


 I'll try and have that conversation later.

Past experience shows answer will but it was only cheap or it was only £50 I spent. Also it'll be well we needed a new xyz.

I often say what do you think people with low income do? They don't buy a new coffee table on a whim then something else then something else. Her answer is /sigh/ yes I suppose. Next day saucepan is slightly worn so she's off to buy a new set.

Like I said this is how her mother operated. I want this find the money. So I guess this is what she knows.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Tell her that the credit card debt scares you and that you need to do this as a team.
> 
> Ask her why she went out and spent more money; when 2 days earlier, she agreed not to.
> 
> ...


I agree that women CAN BE logical and reasonable--- thing is, 70% of the time, they aren't like that. It's almost laughable that you say that, based on my experience. 

Quick question for OP: How many bottles of shampoo, conditioner, makeup, bathroom cleaner--- are in your shower or bathroom counter top and only used 1 time and never touched again?
How many pairs of shoes are in her closet that were worn once and never again?
How many purses?

The ex wife I know spend needlessly CONSTANTLY, and there was no reasoning or being logical with her. We went in debt 3-400$ each month. Now that I have half the income, and I have the exact same amount of bills as I had when married--- I now at least break even and usually save 3-400 each month.

Sounds like he has a wife like I had. IT WILL NEVER GET BETTER.
The only thing you can do is separate accounts. THen she'll just run up credit cards in her name and if you ever divorce, you'll still pay it all. So either don't worry about it, or beg all the time for her not to overspend. Neither will do any good, but maybe you'll be able to learn to live with it.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Evinrude58 said:


> I agree that women CAN BE logical and reasonable---* thing is, 70% of the time, they aren't like that. It's almost laughable that you say that, based on my experience. *



I see.

I have to completely disagree with you.

Of course, your experience with your ex-wife is *your* experience.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I see.
> 
> I have to completely disagree with you.
> 
> Of course, your experience with your ex-wife is *your* experience.


I will admit I'm probably wrong and biased on this viewpoint.
I know guys who spend needlessly on their hunting and fishing stuff, car/truck crap, etc.

So I know it's not just women. 

However, the point is the same. If OP has a woman that is an overspender with no boundaries, it is unlikely to change. She doesn't WANT to change and it's not going to happen. So...........
Do you have a suggestion on what he could do besides separate accounts and try to cut her off? Try to whittle her spending down?
She'll say, "ok, you buy the groceries then"..... and storm off.
No intention of ever actually changing.
He could put a spreadsheet on the fridge and they could both write down receipts every day for a month and track things better. But it won't change her. She's an overspender and he'd better get used to it. I tried for years to work on my ex. NOTHING I ever did worked, and I just lived with it. I tried everything imaginable.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

saddomaddo said:


> I'll try and have that conversation later.
> 
> Past experience shows answer will but it was only cheap or it was only £50 I spent. Also it'll be well we needed a new xyz.
> 
> ...



So, she learned this financial behavior from her mother.


Reach out to her and explain that you understand the mother's influence; but you two cannot live that way.

Sit down and do the budget together. Make it into a "game"---how much money can we save this month?

Sympathize, as much as is reasonable. Agree that being on a budget is a discipline. It does take effort and willpower, like exercising regularly; but the benefits are comparable to regular exercise.


If she blows you off; then you know where you stand.

You must get separate accounts in everything. I don't know if you can get a "post-nup", where you legally are not responsible for her debt, even though you are married.


But if it gets to that point: I think it is divorce-worthy. You can't succeed financially if you are the only one being responsible.

Her acknowledging your remarks, then going out and buying something unnecessary anyway shows her to be disrespectful of you.

She probably spends money because she is bored and unfulfilled.

It's not your responsibility to complete her growing-up process. You are her husband; not her dad.

People who never "back down" usually know they are in the wrong. So they become hyper-defensive.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Evinrude58 said:


> I will admit I'm probably wrong and biased on this viewpoint.
> I know guys who spend needlessly on their hunting and fishing stuff, car/truck crap, etc.
> 
> So I know it's not just women.
> ...



Yes, it is extremely frustrating.

Probably divorce-worthy at some point. Putting your future security in jeopardy.

And, of course, not everyone can divorce. Potentially, they could be even poorer after splitting assets and so forth.

I have found that if a couple is aligned financially, they can do amazing things with a modest income.

And if they are on a different page from one another; they go round and round in circles, never getting anywhere.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

It looks like your wife's drug of choice is shopping. She doesn't buy because it makes sense to buy, she buys because spending money gives her euphoria. I think you have a deeply unhappy woman who is trying to escape reality.

"You've been using heroine again. What did we discuss? Can you seriously not shoot up for just one day? We're not going to have any money." Do you think talking to a junky like this would be productive?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

If a man is walking alone in the woods, and there are no women anywhere near him who could possibly hear him, and he says something, is he still wrong?


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## saddomaddo (Feb 1, 2009)

Evinrude58 said:


> notmyrealname4 said:
> 
> 
> > I see.
> ...


Beginning to think she's never going to change.

This time I'm thinking why did I bother. All this grief and stress for 40 quid.

Right now I'd pay 100 at least for an easy life.


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## saddomaddo (Feb 1, 2009)

KillerClown said:


> It looks like your wife's drug of choice is shopping. She doesn't buy because it makes sense to buy, she buys because spending money gives her euphoria. I think you have a deeply unhappy woman who is trying to escape reality.
> 
> "You've been using heroine again. What did we discuss? Can you seriously not shoot up for just one day? We're not going to have any money." Do you think talking to a junky like this would be productive?


You may be right here ?


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

KillerClown said:


> It looks like your wife's drug of choice is shopping. She doesn't buy because it makes sense to buy,* she buys because spending money gives her euphoria.** I think you have a deeply unhappy woman who is trying to escape reality.*
> 
> "You've been using heroine again. What did we discuss? Can you seriously not shoot up for just one day? We're not going to have any money." Do you think talking to a junky like this would be productive?



This is a really good post.

saddo, do you think if you talked to your wife in these terms, she would see the light?

Once again, it's not your job to be her dad, and teach her how to develop her personality and find fulfillment outside of the rush of shopping. You can encourage her. You can patiently explain how hemorrhaging money is not sustainable.

Shopping makes a person feel "full" for a short while. Much like overeating. There is a feeling of satiety, satisfaction and comfort. Or, in a word; security.

Understanding that this is not really bringing security is important for her. In fact, it's bringing the opposite.

What is your wife good at?


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## saddomaddo (Feb 1, 2009)

notmyrealname4 said:


> KillerClown said:
> 
> 
> > It looks like your wife's drug of choice is shopping. She doesn't buy because it makes sense to buy,* she buys because spending money gives her euphoria.** I think you have a deeply unhappy woman who is trying to escape reality.*
> ...


What is my wife good at? Hmmm

She's a great mother and most of the time she's a great person to be with.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

saddomaddo said:


> I know some of you are going to say yep ditch the *****.


Print some divorce papers off the internet, fill them out and hand them to her. 

See if she fights for you. If she doesn't then I agree.... ditch the *****.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

saddomaddo said:


> You may be right here ?





KillerClown said:


> It looks like your wife's drug of choice is shopping. She doesn't buy because it makes sense to buy, she buys because spending money gives her euphoria. I think you have a deeply unhappy woman who is trying to escape reality.
> 
> "You've been using heroine again. What did we discuss? Can you seriously not shoot up for just one day? We're not going to have any money." Do you think talking to a junky like this would be productive?


this was exactly the case with a friend of mine.

his wife spent on any and evry whim she saw fit. once the money ran out....she slowly stole 150k over about 2-3 years from the company she worked for to cover her "needs".

when the party stopped at her work and he found out what she was up to...he promptly divorced her. its a miracle she never went to jail.


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