# Can a Narcissist realize what/who they are?



## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

I have read a lot on narcissism, but still have trouble totally understanding all about this disorder.

I have been having general talks with my STBEXH and I told him that I believed him to be a narcissist...

Now he keeps asking me about the disorder, and wants me to print out info on it so he can ask his counselor about it.

When I gave him the list of "traits" of the disorder, he recognized some of them in himself and said it was scary. He sounded down when it basically said "there is no cure"... 

Can he truly recognize this, and get help if he is willing?
I am not saying this will change our outcome,, I am to the point of "too little too late" and too much damage has been done. But as with most of us here... we still care about what happens to them... and I can hope if he is willing, he can be a better person from here on out.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I think they can acknowledge it and get help. But then again you'll wonder if they're doing it for some sort of gain with you. That they truly aren't doing anything in the way of self improvement for themselves, but instead doing it to get you to still be the puppet in their lives.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

A Bit Much said:


> I think they can acknowledge it and get help. But then again you'll wonder if they're doing it for some sort of gain with you. That they truly aren't doing anything in the way of self improvement for themselves, but instead doing it to get you to still be the puppet in their lives.


This is what I wonder... I have read that they are good at fooling counselors,, so would he be just "saying what I want to hear"?? Thinking this will make me doubt the D? He doesn't want the D... ( of course not, no other supply)...


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Narcissists need you, but in a sick way. It's not about you at all, you have to keep remembering that. It's all about supplying THEIR NEEDS. Think parasites. You my dear are only the host.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

At the core of narcissism is their belief that they are perfect. It's everyone else that has the problem.

The reason there is no cure is because you can never get them to see how bad they behave. I agree with A Bit Much with them it's never about you it's about them sucking the life out of you. N's truly are parasites. My dad is one so I know how they operate.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

And this is what I have read. 

He is very manipulative,, and knows what to say to me. 

I texted him yesterday with an activity: Name 5 things that were/are good in our marriage.

He called me and was livid,,, said it was a totally unfair question, because the last year has been dealing with his infidelity, and the last 5 years have involved emotional abuse ( out of a 9 year marriage)... 

So I guess it was unfair, not much good or at least "real" in our marriage... 

Just helped me feel better about my decision.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Keep in mind, too, that a person can be very narcissistic without meeting all the criteria for being a true narcissist (NPD). My husband checks quite a few of the boxes for NPD, but not enough to be diagnosed with NPD. So, he's just narcissistic.


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## Twofaces (Dec 5, 2011)

For a true Narcissist, NO. If they only exhibit a few traits, help can be sought and maintained.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

It might be useful for you and him to know that "Narcissistic Personality Disorder" as a formal condition has been removed from the most updated edition of the DSM, I think it's DSM V (5). That indicates that it is being reevaulated and maybe even redefined in terms of treatment, etc. The fact that it is no longer formally considered a "personality disorder" as a clinical definition, or at least that it's being categorized differently, means that previous info on it--being told there's "no cure"--is also up for debate.

In other words: look up DSM V and see what the most recent research says. Older info claims there is "no cure," but there is some flexibility now with more updated forms of treatment. We're talking about a human being--anything is possible!


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## Twofaces (Dec 5, 2011)

Good information. I hear that there are going to be A LOT of changes to the new manual on a lot of so called personality disorders. My shrink mentioned that a LOT of things will be pointed to PTSD from childhood abuse, neglect and trauma. 

I cant wait to get my hands on it


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Twofaces said:


> Good information. I hear that there are going to be A LOT of changes to the new manual on a lot of so called personality disorders. My shrink mentioned that a LOT of things will be pointed to PTSD from childhood abuse, neglect and trauma.
> 
> I cant wait to get my hands on it


Considering that the ONLY approach to therapy that worked for my husband and me is IFS--internal family systems--this is really interesting. Part of the premise is that lots of maladaptive patterns in adulthood can be traced to the presence of unhealed "exiles" and "protectors" within the complex "family" of subpersonalities in each person. Exiles can be traumatized little children, for example, subconsciously still inside a person and governing their behavior. The solution is finding and healing those exiles under their protectors.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

I read through this and even looked up the disorder and I can't help but laugh. I have been called narcissistic on multiple occasions, but done in a somewhat joking way. Reading through some of the descriptions of it, I can see why the comments would be made, but I would say it is just a small portion of my personality. Just a piece of the puzzle. I also can't help but laugh when thinking about it.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> It might be useful for you and him to know that "Narcissistic Personality Disorder" as a formal condition has been removed from the most updated edition of the DSM, I think it's DSM V (5). That indicates that it is being reevaulated and maybe even redefined in terms of treatment, etc. The fact that it is no longer formally considered a "personality disorder" as a clinical definition, or at least that it's being categorized differently, means that previous info on it--being told there's "no cure"--is also up for debate.
> 
> In other words: look up DSM V and see what the most recent research says. Older info claims there is "no cure," but there is some flexibility now with more updated forms of treatment. We're talking about a human being--anything is possible!


Thank you, I will look this up.. but I'm sure his counselor might now of the changes also when he asks about it. 

Will be very interesting to see the changes, considering the advice on this before has been to "run and not look back"...to get away from the Narcissist.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I haven't read the new definition but know that people on my adult children of narcissists were upset about it.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> At the core of narcissism is their belief that they are perfect. It's everyone else that has the problem.


Bingo. 

Everyone else has a problem. Not them. Ick.


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## Anonymous1too (Aug 28, 2012)

I have read that narcissism is a spectrum with varying degrees. That your STBEX recognizes that he has tendencies of narcissism leads me to believe that he *can* improve. 

It's the ones that believe they are perfect that will never recover.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Numb in Ohio said:


> And this is what I have read.
> 
> He is very manipulative,, and knows what to say to me.
> 
> ...


If you truly knew he is a narcissist and you knew much about it at all you would know for certain that the only way to “deal” with him is to go totally No Contact. If you don’t you for sure are going to get hurt again and there’ll be nobody to blame next time but yourself. Maybe he hasn’t hurt you enough as yet and so you poke him so he retaliates and hurts you more?

Five years of emotional abuse and an affair in a nine year marriage, surely you’ve learnt your lessons? With that record behind you it makes you a codependent and you are still a codependent because you want to help him “get better”!

It is your codependency that you need to focus on fixing such that your next relationship is an interdependent one, otherwise you are just going to repeat your history in the future!

Maybe you should think about stopping trying to help your stbxh, stop being a codependent and work on being an independent person who operates within an interpedent relationship. That’s quite a thing for a codependent to do and it’ll need a lot of your focus and energy for quite a while.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

AFEH said:


> If you truly knew he is a narcissist and you knew much about it at all you would know for certain that the only way to “deal” with him is to go totally No Contact. If you don’t you for sure are going to get hurt again and there’ll be nobody to blame next time but yourself. Maybe he hasn’t hurt you enough as yet and so you poke him so he retaliates and hurts you more?
> 
> Five years of emotional abuse and an affair in a nine year marriage, surely you’ve learnt your lessons? With that record behind you it makes you a codependent and you are still a codependent because you want to help him “get better”!
> 
> ...


Thank you for this.. you are right in my thinking/wishing I could "fix" him... It is totally scary even thinking of another relationship. I feel I will be safer to stay alone than risking finding another messed up relationship. 

My CoDependency is a struggle for me.. I have books on it.. but cannot afford counseling right now... and no close groups around my area. So the strongest support I get is here... it reinforces my need to stay away from him.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Numb in Ohio said:


> Thank you for this.. you are right in my thinking/wishing I could "fix" him... It is totally scary even thinking of another relationship. I feel I will be safer to stay alone than risking finding another messed up relationship.
> 
> My CoDependency is a struggle for me.. I have books on it.. but cannot afford counseling right now... and no close groups around my area. So the strongest support I get is here... it reinforces my need to stay away from him.


I was a codependent for a long time. I don’t think codependency just somehow “goes”. It’s like being say an alcoholic, the person’s always an alcoholic but while they’re not drinking they’re a “recovering alcoholic”. As soon as they have just one drink they’re back to being an alcoholic and so have to start recovery all over again. I think in that way we’re like “recovering codependents”.

Codependents are poor on a few things, impulse control and healthy boundaries being two of them. Take No Contact for example. That’s a very firm, strong boundary. But when you’ve loved someone and maybe you still love them you often get the impulse to break that boundary, break No Contact and get in touch with them using one excuse or another.

Last November was the last time my wife and I communicated. Yet still just about every day I get an impulse to contact her. Yet I know I’ll get hurt if I do and I may well hurt her. So I tell myself when I get an impulse “This too shall pass”. And it does. If you haven’t already read up on boundaries, make some new ones for yourself to practice with everyday. Also have a read of http://www.amazon.co.uk/Awareness-A...5192/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1346284271&sr=8-1. It’s a fabulous book for people like you and I. He will raise your level of awareness and help you to see your ego in action, that’s where your codependency resides, and slowly but surely day by day you will make healthy changes and your ego will grow, broaden and deepen.



Moving away from codependency is a journey and one which we can learn a lot about ourselves from. You will know when you are ready for another relationship and when you are it will happen.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

So H went to counselor today.. the counselor read him the list of traits of a narcissist... H agreed to almost all of them.. counselor said he's not a full blown narcissist...

Said that he wouldn't be in counseling, and trying to get me back if he was.... said his issue is Codependency instead.

This doesn't make me feel better, because this now gives him no excuse for the emotional abuse and cheating... its all on him. ( there was no excuse anyway, but I know he was looking(hoping) for a reason)...

I am starting IC on Sept. 14th... for my issues. Hopefully this will help me strengthen myself to stay away. And to help me become a better "me". I know it's going to be a long road.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> It might be useful for you and him to know that "Narcissistic Personality Disorder" as a formal condition has been removed from the most updated edition of the DSM, I think it's DSM V (5).


Creda, no, NPD is not being removed. Although the number of PD types is being consolidated from 10 to 6 in the new DSM-5, NPD is one of the ones being retained as a separate type. Two years ago, there was a push to reduce the PD categories to only 5, eliminating NPD. But that change was dropped. See Proposed Revision | APA DSM-5. 

As a practical matter, PDs are not actually eliminated when the DSMs are structurally changed. Instead, those PDs are moved to a residual category because therapists will continue to use them. Even though they are not listed separately, they still exist in that residual category -- to appease the therapists. 

DSM-IV had such a residual category. It was called "Personality Disorder Not Otherwise Specified." DSM-V has one too. The name is being changed to "Personality Disorder Trait Specified." Regardless of the name, it serves the same purpose of being a residual category.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Wow, thanks for the detailed clarification!

But it still sounds like there is some flexibility in categorizing them? I haven't looked at the DSM in awhile.

I just prefer a "never say never" approach to these things, rather than saying "incurable!"


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> But it still sounds like there is some flexibility in categorizing them?


Actually, there will be far more flexibility in categorizing PDs in the DSM-5. In the current manual (DSM-IV), a PD diagnosis is intended to appease insurance companies, not to help you. Even when your spouse's NPD traits fall well below the diagnostic threshold, they can be strong enough to make you miserable and completely undermine your marriage. Hence, being told by a psychiatrist that your spouse "does not have NPD" does NOT mean you are safe. It does NOT mean he doesn't have strong NPD traits.

This is so because, like all the other PDs, NPD is a "spectrum disorder." This means that, like selfishness and resentment, NPD traits are merely behavioral symptoms that everybody has to some degree. It therefore was ridiculous, in 1980, for the psychiatric community to adopt a dichotomous approach -- wherein a client is deemed "to have" or "not have" NPD.

This "yes or no" approach makes perfect sense in every field of the medical sciences, where clients are found to either have a disease or not. This is why, in the medical sciences, "disorder" means "disease." In psychiatry, however, it does not necessarily mean that. There is NO KNOWN DISEASE that causes any of the ten personality disorders (PDs). Hence, with PDs, the term "disorder" simply means "group of dysfunctional symptoms typically occurring together" (aka a "syndrome").

Of course, the psychiatric community knew in 1980 that this dichotomous approach to diagnosis makes no sense at all for behavioral symptoms that vary in intensity from person to person. They knew it is senseless to say a person meeting only 95% of the diagnostic criteria "has no disorder" and a person meeting 100% "has the disorder."

Doing so is as silly as diagnosing everyone under 6'4" as "short" and everyone under 250 pounds as "skinny." The psychiatric community adopted this silly approach only because the insurance companies -- who were long accustomed to "yes or no" diagnosis from the medical community -- insisted on a single, bright line being drawn between those clients they would cover and those they would not cover.

Over the past three decades, however, the psychiatric community (APA) quickly realized the insurance companies had betrayed them because, despite this act of appeasement, these companies still refused to cover NPD (and other PD) treatments. In addition, the APA members realized that, if they are ever to be taken seriously by the rest of the scientific community, they would have to abandon this absurd approach to identifying mental illness.

This is why, in the new diagnostic manual (DSM5) that will be released this coming May, this dichotomous approach is being fully abandoned for all PDs. It is being replaced -- indeed, has already been replaced in the draft manual -- by a graduated approach which measures five levels of severity. In this way, it is far more flexible than the current manual.


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