# TRT ... Thoughts For Those Currently On?



## EllisRedding

I have seen several guys here mention they are on some form of TRT, so I thought I would throw this out there for those that are on. So far, how has your experience been? What are the noticeable effects (positive and negative) since you started HRT? What are you using (if you don't mind disclosing)? Any issues with administering the shots? Any concerns with needing to be on TRT for the rest of your life? Are the costs covered by your insurance or is it mostly out of pocket?

Over the past few years or so, I have noticed a drop in my libido. Along with that, especially of late, I just seem to be more worn down, takes longer to recover from activity, increase in joint pain, etc... In the past when I have mentioned to my doctor during my annual physical, he brushed me off, said it was just due to the stresses of life and getting older (I work a lot of hours, married with a young family, I am fairly active in terms of exercise / recreational sports, etc...). A few people have recommended some health & wellness doctors who are much better suited in this area via my GP. TBH though, I am not entirely sure I want to take something that would increase my libido as that could tack on a lot of frustration I am able to avoid currently lol.


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## Buddy400

EllisRedding said:


> I have seen several guys here mention they are on some form of TRT, so I thought I would throw this out there for those that are on. So far, how has your experience been? What are the noticeable effects (positive and negative) since you started HRT? What are you using (if you don't mind disclosing)? Any issues with administering the shots? Any concerns with needing to be on TRT for the rest of your life? Are the costs covered by your insurance or is it mostly out of pocket?
> 
> Over the past few years or so, I have noticed a drop in my libido. Along with that, especially of late, I just seem to be more worn down, takes longer to recover from activity, increase in joint pain, etc... In the past when I have mentioned to my doctor during my annual physical, he brushed me off, said it was just due to the stresses of life and getting older (I work a lot of hours, married with a young family, I am fairly active in terms of exercise / recreational sports, etc...). A few people have recommended some health & wellness doctors who are much better suited in this area via my GP. TBH though, I am not entirely sure I want to take something that would increase my libido as that could tack on a lot of frustration I am able to avoid currently lol.


I've been on TRT for 7 or 8 years. I never noticed much besides my libido being higher. But, my libido being higher was the whole point of why I started on them.

Most urologists aren't going to seriously engage you on this topic. They'll point out that you're in the "normal range" even though you're on the low side of a range that includes 85 year old men. Then again, you can go to a specialized Low-T clinic and you're worried that they'll pump you full of something you don't need. Some places will work with insurance companies (those that accept it), others just don't bother. But, out-of pocket isn't too unreasonable.

I always got shots. One place required me to be there to get the shots weekly which was a bit of a pain in the ass (the shot itself isn't painful). Lately I've dealt with a place where I go once a year, get blood tests every six months or so and administer the shots myself. Much more convenient. 

I know they advertise the other benefits than libido, but I always just assumed they were emphasizing that stuff so that it wasn't all focused on getting woodies. 

If sex with your wife is inconsistent, having a higher libido could be problematic. 

Then again, thy it for a few months and see what happens.


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## Tasorundo

I have been on it for 6 months. I had levels around 200, which were down from about 500 a few years ago.

I noticed the following: decreased libido, overly emotional, consistently depressed, lacked motivation and energy to do things.

I choose to use pellets as I just didn't want to give myself shots. They are more expensive, but ultimately (with no insurance assistance) it is about 700 a year. So not a huge cost really.

What I noticed with them: At first I did not notice much, but over the course of the first round of pellets I did not have more energy, I did have more libido, I felt overall stronger and more able to focus and accomplish tasks.

The most interesting thing for me was that as the first round was fading away, I really noticed the depression and over emotional stuff creeping back in. When I say overly emotional, I mean just crying at nothing. I am a sensitive and introspective guy and I have no issues expressing emotions, but crying and a tv/radio commercial or song, is a little much.

I will also agree with Buddy, given that I have a mismatched libido marriage, the increased libido is not so great.


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## TJW

I was on it for about 2 years, at ages 57, 58. First, with Androgel, then with Testopel (surgically-implanted pellets), I also had injections from a doctor decades ago when I was 34. 

At age 34, I suffered from a psychologically-induced ED. The testosterone injections, along with niacin (a vitamin vasodilator) helped to resolve it, and the therapy was discontinued in about 6 months.

At ages 57 and 58,



Tasorundo said:


> I noticed the following: decreased libido, overly emotional, consistently depressed, lacked motivation and energy to do things.


I had absolutely no improvement whatsoever in any aspect of life, neither libido, strength, stamina, or happiness. These are exactly the results my urologist expected.


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## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> If sex with your wife is inconsistent, having a higher libido could be problematic.
> 
> Then again, thy it for a few months and see what happens.





Tasorundo said:


> I will also agree with Buddy, given that I have a mismatched libido marriage, the increased libido is not so great.


Well, aside from the already mismatched libido, add to it that my Ws doctor just put her on an AD to help with PMS/Anxiety, and one the common side effects is decreased sex drive / trouble with Os, and you can see why this could be a very dangerous mix combined with an increase on my side ...

At a minimum, I would at least like to get a full blood panel done so I can see exactly where I stand.


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## farsidejunky

Have you tried addressing it through diet yet?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

This is a good thread. Lots of good info and experiences. 

About 10 yrs ago my T levels were low due to meds for a ruptured disc. I thought about TRT, then finally had a disc fusion surgery and stopped meds, T levels rebounded.

Thank God 

But I can say the disc fusion year was a rough whole year. 

Thank the good Lord for ability to persevere then. Whew!

Now I watch everything in my diet and just take good round of daily vitamins. And investigate everything for potential effect on libido. 

Had to modify diet even more to get bad cholesterol under control rather than take Lipitor. Dr wanted me to go straight to the 40mg dosage. I said let's give me six months and try again.

So far better numbers. Probably just lucked up there. But I'd kill for more bbq and ribs.


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## EllisRedding

farsidejunky said:


> Have you tried addressing it through diet yet?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I have looked at some of the options in terms of diet, some stuff which is already part of my diet, and other stuff I would never touch (very picky eater). 

Who knows, maybe i get my levels tested and it turns out hormonally I am fine, and the issue may stem more on the relationship side? Right now I am thinking it is a combination of both.


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## farsidejunky

One other thing to consider, Ellis. Make sure you are getting enough sleep. Studies have shown men who get just six to seven hours of sleep per night have testosterone levels of someone 10 years older than their actual age.

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## EllisRedding

farsidejunky said:


> One other thing to consider, Ellis. Make sure you are getting enough sleep. Studies have shown men who get just six to seven hours of sleep per night have testosterone levels of someone 10 years older than their actual age.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I probably average close to 7hrs of sleep (funny, when my libido was higher I was actually getting a lot less sleep since I would actually stay up later at night hoping to get laid lol). Can't really sleep more than that, my body doesn't let me (always been an early morning person).


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## Mr. Nail

@EllisRedding , you are asking all the right questions. I took Testosterone Cypionate by injection for a year or so. I started with 1 shot every other week but got sick of the hormone roller coaster, switched to half shot every week. That was ok for some time. 

About shots, you draw with a larger needle than you shoot with. One time I neglected to switch needles. That was surprisingly painful. In most states you can buy needles without a prescription. Amazon sells the syringes but not the needles. 

Insurance: My insurance refused to pay for the original test. I came in in the 70 -85 year old range, so they refused to pay for the testosterone. so all out of pocket. 

One monday morning as I was getting prepped for my shot, I looked at the needle and the vial and said to myself, Why in the hell are you putting yourself through this every week, your wife obviously doesn't care if you are sexually healthy. So I put it away and never shot again. When my Doctor (endocrinologist) learned about this he put me on a low dose of Clomiphene citrate (not covered by insurance because I'm male) which acts as an estrogen blocker. I'm still on that. he wanted me off after 9 months but the day I stopped taking it I started gaining weight like crazy. So I didn't stay on for life. 

Finally, same doctor put me on a SSRI for stress. When that med dropped my libedo, my stress dropped radically, because I stopped worrying about not getting any sex. I suppose @CatholicDad would say that My wife is not getting 100% of my sexuallity, but conversely she is getting as much as she wants. I wouldn't advise raising libido in a Mixed drive relationship, when you are the HD partner.


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## EllisRedding

Mr. Nail said:


> @EllisRedding , you are asking all the right questions. I took Testosterone Cypionate by injection for a year or so. I started with 1 shot every other week but got sick of the hormone roller coaster, switched to half shot every week. That was ok for some time.
> 
> About shots, you draw with a larger needle than you shoot with. One time I neglected to switch needles. That was surprisingly painful. In most states you can buy needles without a prescription. Amazon sells the syringes but not the needles.
> 
> Insurance: My insurance refused to pay for the original test. I came in in the 70 -85 year old range, so they refused to pay for the testosterone. so all out of pocket.
> 
> One monday morning as I was getting prepped for my shot, I looked at the needle and the vial and said to myself, Why in the hell are you putting yourself through this every week, your wife obviously doesn't care if you are sexually healthy. So I put it away and never shot again. When my Doctor (endocrinologist) learned about this he put me on a low dose of Clomiphene citrate (not covered by insurance because I'm male) which acts as an estrogen blocker. I'm still on that. he wanted me off after 9 months but the day I stopped taking it I started gaining weight like crazy. So I didn't stay on for life.
> 
> Finally, same doctor put me on a SSRI for stress. When that med dropped my libedo, my stress dropped radically, because I stopped worrying about not getting any sex. I suppose @CatholicDad would say that My wife is not getting 100% of my sexuallity, but conversely she is getting as much as she wants. I wouldn't advise raising libido in a Mixed drive relationship, when you are the HD partner.


IIRC, my SILs husband was put on Clomid a while back as well to help with low T. Not sure how long he stayed on or if it helped any. I wonder if the weight gain you noticed was associated with your Estrogen spiking back up once off Clomid?


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## Mr. Nail

That was my thought Estrogen drives belly fat in men. I tend to think of my low T problem as estrogen poisoning.


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## dadstartingover

I'm pretty well-versed on the topic and have written an article and recorded a two-part podcast on TRT:

https://dadstartingover.com/podcast-testosterone-replacement-therapy/

I take testosterone cypionate twice a week (injection). Been on about 5 years or so now.

Night and day difference for me. It was really the missing ingredient. Muscle mass up, leaner, attitude better, less anxiety, more confidence, etc. My original total test level was in the high 200's and low 300's. Now I'm around 1,000.

I take arimidex to keep the estrogen at bay. If I didn't, I would have bloat, boobies, and lots of crying. 

My blood pressure is always around 110/70. My lipids are great. My blood count is fine. Prostate a-ok. 

There are alternatives. Clomid is a popular one. While it is technically a SERM, it makes a lot of men feel estrogenic and like complete crap. HCG monotherapy does the same for many. Both are alternate routes to fooling the body into producing more testosterone. I prefer to just inject the real thing.

If shots scare you, you can try creams. 

Most GP's and even endocrinologists are scared to give out TRT (not to mention completely ignorant). "You're not dying... why do this?" Some will even laugh in your face for trying to be a fake manly man. Meanwhile, they hand out hormone-altering, potentially dangerous birth control like it's candy. But I digress...


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## In Absentia

I have no experience with TRT, but diet and exercise, plus plenty of sleep should do the trick. I know you have a young family, but but... also, I'm not sure why you want a higher libido when your wife is taking ADs and has a much lower libido... you should be grateful for your diminished libido... :smile2:

At one point, when I got depressed because of my wife's lack if libido (due to the ADs), I started taking ADs myself. They lowered my libido too, to the point I wasn't really that bothered about sex. But I felt like a zombie, so I stopped them... and I got really horny again, and depressed again, and the cycle continued... :laugh:


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## EllisRedding

dadstartingover said:


> I'm pretty well-versed on the topic and have written an article and recorded a two-part podcast on TRT:
> 
> https://dadstartingover.com/podcast-testosterone-replacement-therapy/
> 
> I take testosterone cypionate twice a week (injection). Been on about 5 years or so now.
> 
> Night and day difference for me. It was really the missing ingredient. Muscle mass up, leaner, attitude better, less anxiety, more confidence, etc. My original total test level was in the high 200's and low 300's. Now I'm around 1,000.
> 
> I take arimidex to keep the estrogen at bay. If I didn't, I would have bloat, boobies, and lots of crying.
> 
> My blood pressure is always around 110/70. My lipids are great. My blood count is fine. Prostate a-ok.
> 
> There are alternatives. Clomid is a popular one. While it is technically a SERM, it makes a lot of men feel estrogenic and like complete crap. HCG monotherapy does the same for many. Both are alternate routes to fooling the body into producing more testosterone. I prefer to just inject the real thing.
> 
> If shots scare you, you can try creams.
> 
> Most GP's and even endocrinologists are scared to give out TRT (not to mention completely ignorant). "You're not dying... why do this?" Some will even laugh in your face for trying to be a fake manly man. Meanwhile, they hand out hormone-altering, potentially dangerous birth control like it's candy. But I digress...


Thanks. This is very helpful. The only concern in general would be my lipids which have always been off (even as a kid). Blood pressure has always been spot on (120/80) as all other markers. Not too concerned about needles, my W is a nurse and would have no issues administering. When I have mentioned to my GP the last two annual physicals some of the things I was experiencing, his answer was nothing more than "Well, that is stress and life". Not saying he had to suggest any course of treatment, but logically you would like to think he would have recommended getting full bloodwork done just to see if there were any abnormalities.


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## EllisRedding

In Absentia said:


> I have no experience with TRT, but diet and exercise, plus plenty of sleep should do the trick. I know you have a young family, but but... also, I'm not sure why you want a higher libido when your wife is taking ADs and has a much lower libido... you should be grateful for your diminished libido... :smile2:
> 
> At one point, when I got depressed because of my wife's lack if libido (due to the ADs), I started taking ADs myself. They lowered my libido too, to the point I wasn't really that bothered about sex. But I felt like a zombie, so I stopped them... and I got really horny again, and depressed again, and the cycle continued... :laugh:


Diet, exercise and sleep are not the issue really. Well, I am sure there are some improvements I could make to my diet, but nothing really drastic would be needed (i rarely eat fruits, don't eat vegetables and don't eat seafood, those are things that will never change lol). as far as exercise, I have always been very active. If anything, I thought I might have been pushing myself too hard (this has been known to have a negative effect on T levels), but even backing off this past year hasn't made a difference. Sleep, I typically get 6-7 hours during the week and then usually 8 hours on the weekend. I actually used to get a lot less sleep years ago (when my libido was much higher!).

The whole libido thing though, that is undoubtedly part of my concern. Keep in mind though, when asking about TRT, I am looking at it for some of the other benefits (such as @dadstartingover stated). Over the past few years I have noticed a fairly significant dropoff in performance (athletic), recovery, motivation. Although I am not overweight, I am having a much more difficult time maintaining my weight, etc... That being said, is all this a fair tradeoff for going back to being frustrated constantly with an increased libido, quite possibly not. I figure at a minimum, I can get bloodwork done and then decide (depending on the results) if I should take any action or just bask in the glory of a diminished sex drive lol


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## In Absentia

EllisRedding said:


> Diet, exercise and sleep are not the issue really. Well, I am sure there are some improvements I could make to my diet, but nothing really drastic would be needed (i rarely eat fruits, don't eat vegetables and don't eat seafood, those are things that will never change lol). as far as exercise, I have always been very active. If anything, I thought I might have been pushing myself too hard (this has been known to have a negative effect on T levels), but even backing off this past year hasn't made a difference. Sleep, I typically get 6-7 hours during the week and then usually 8 hours on the weekend. I actually used to get a lot less sleep years ago (when my libido was much higher!).
> 
> The whole libido thing though, that is undoubtedly part of my concern. Keep in mind though, when asking about TRT, I am looking at it for some of the other benefits (such as @dadstartingover stated). Over the past few years I have noticed a fairly significant dropoff in performance (athletic), recovery, motivation. Although I am not overweight, I am having a much more difficult time maintaining my weight, etc... That being said, is all this a fair tradeoff for going back to being frustrated constantly with an increased libido, quite possibly not. I figure at a minimum, I can get bloodwork done and then decide (depending on the results) if I should take any action or just bask in the glory of a diminished sex drive lol


well, good! I find that I'm a lot less energetic with age and with the odd muscular ailment. The libido thing is very tricky. Only you can decide. Personally, I would not want an increased libido, but at least you get sex regularly. It's been 10 months for me and, as far as I know, I won't have sex with my wife ever again. Which is a bit sad. But it's her decision.


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## EllisRedding

In Absentia said:


> well, good! I find that I'm a lot less energetic with age and with the odd muscular ailment. The libido thing is very tricky. Only you can decide. Personally, I would not want an increased libido, *but at least you get sex regularly. *It's been 10 months for me and, as far as I know, I won't have sex with my wife ever again. Which is a bit sad. But it's her decision.


Whoa, who said I was getting sex regularly lol. I would say in the past 2 years probably about 10 times, nothing since maybe Late July / Early August. Things looked like they were turning around earlier this year but that went out the door for a few reasons.


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## In Absentia

EllisRedding said:


> Whoa, who said I was getting sex regularly lol. I would say in the past 2 years probably about 10 times, nothing since maybe Late July / Early August. Things looked like they were turning around earlier this year but that went out the door for a few reasons.


Ok, I seemed to remember you were having some sort of sex and I got the impression it was a bit more frequent, like me (maybe twice a month)... my commiserations! Since I've been in your boat and got nowhere - on the contrary I pushed my wife even further away - I have no advice on this front... :laugh:


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## dadstartingover

Warning: TRT may very well give you a sense of confidence and "manliness" that will suddenly wake you up to the fact that you're living with a woman that doesn't like you. Your improved looks, posture and attitude will attract women to you.


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## In Absentia

EllisRedding said:


> Whoa, who said I was getting sex regularly lol. I would say in the past 2 years probably about 10 times, nothing since maybe Late July / Early August.


I'm not at all surprised you are worried about your wife's libido... BTW, has she started her ADs and how is it going?


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## EllisRedding

In Absentia said:


> EllisRedding said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whoa, who said I was getting sex regularly lol. I would say in the past 2 years probably about 10 times, nothing since maybe Late July / Early August.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not at all surprised you are worried about your wife's libido... BTW, has she started her ADs and how is it going?
Click to expand...

I think she has been on for close to a month now. Definitely a noticeable difference in mood swings in the week or so leading up to her period. Funny, things were getting back on track somewhat, then her mood swings started getting bad so that pushed things back. Now she is on meds which help with the mood swings but potentially kills the other area lol.


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## Phil Anders

TRT is amazing and can be transformative in terms of libido, physique, energy, and outlook. 

Unfortunately, GPs, endos, & uros are often tragically underinformed. T-Nation's TRT forum is a great place to read up if you can't find a good doc. 

You are shooting for _high_-normal 600-1000 ng/dL, not a barely-alive yet statistically "normal" 300.

With the pharmacokinetic half-life of testosterone cypionate, 2x/wk dosing is proper to keep levels steady in the desired range. NOT biweekly or monthly or some other idiotic interval, which will have your levels all over the damn shop and you feeling horrible and unmoored. 100 mg/wk is a standard dose, so 50mg (typically 250uL, or 25 insulin syringe "units" at standard 200mg/mL strength) twice a week. 

There's no need to stick yourself in a major muscle with a large-bore needle, either. I have used painless 1/2" 31g insulin needles going into subcutaneous fat (flank or buttock) for over 6 years now with zero issues. It's a fat-soluble hormone, and it comes dissolved in oil. Pellets are implanted in subQ fat, and any topical cream traverses it as well. There are a couple of successful pilot studies on this administration method, if you care about such things. But the official line will always be "IM injection only" 

You do need to monitor estradiol (E2), which T aromatizes into. Get your own labs online if your MD won't play ball...a good E2 number is around 20-30 (NOT zero). Take arimidex (AKA anastrozole--an aromatase inhibitor) at something like 0.25mg per week to keep the conversion at bay. Failure to do this can lead to gynecomastia (manboobs).

Also, you may want hCG co-injections (human chorionic gonadotropin) which will mimic pituitary FSH/LH action to keep your balls working and producing their own T--absent this they shut down and atrophy, because exogenous T turns off the pituitary axis. Typical hCG dose is ~250 IU 2x/wk subQ via same insulin needles; use goodrx coupons to get it more cheaply.

Finally, get used to donating blood, and make sure you don't ever supplement iron (check your multivitamin). TRT often causes polycythemia (overproduction of red blood cells). Thick blood is a clotting and stroke hazard, so stay on top of it. Double-red (apheresis) is a good way to get Hb down quick. Don't rush to advertise your TRT regimen; some blood banks get moralistic about self-interested donations, even though they are win-win.


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## In Absentia

EllisRedding said:


> I think she has been on for close to a month now. Definitely a noticeable difference in mood swings in the week or so leading up to her period. Funny, things were getting back on track somewhat, then her mood swings started getting bad so that pushed things back. Now she is on meds which help with the mood swings but potentially kills the other area lol.


It should have killed her libido by now... maybe it won't... meaning her libido is not going to be affected that much. Fingers crossed... :smile2:


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## EllisRedding

OK, Thought I would do a quick update here. I finally got my bloodwork done. I have an appt to speak with the doctor tomorrow to go over everything, but for now I am able to view all my test results online. My Total Testosterone and Free Testosterone are "normal". When I say normal, I am barely above the very low end of the range (my levels are more in line of an 80yr old male...). In addition, my DHT levels are significantly low (well under the normal range). So based on the results and how I am reading them, it would appear that I am dealing with low T (which does explain several of the things I have been dealing with over the last few years). It is a shame that this type of test isn't more common as it would have been nice to have results from previous years to compare against. I should have a better sense of everything after I speak with my doctor tomorrow, and if recommended, will need to decide if I want to do anything about it.


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## shesgone

Interesting how it affects differnt people so differently. 
I am borderline coming in at just under 300. 
I would like to try it and can get the trt from the doctor, but I was afraid of having to take it from now on and the long term effects of it. 
I have exhibited several symptoms, hair loss, a little weight gain, tired, restless sleep, muscle loss, lower libido than I used to have (albeit alot higher than alot). 
I may go give it a shot now that i am pressing forward with my divorce. Time to get back in the gym anyway.


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## 23cm

Might want to ask about Aveed. I started it about 4 months ago after being on Androgel for about 4 years. One shot every 70 days after an initial two-week series of two shots. No ups and downs in mood etc. not as sloppy as Androgel. And best because it has to be given in the drs office, insurance picks up all costs. At least mine does—Medicare and supplement. Has been used for years in Europe. Relatively new here 

So, I’m 73, 170, 5’8”, and have lost 40 lbs over since starting TRT. Has given me the interest in working out and I’m in better shape now than 20 years ago...knock out the 22 push-ups for Veterans every day, bench press my weight + 20, and work out minimum of 4 days a week with a cardio/weigh lifting regimen. Fortunate to have found a great personal trainer. 

As for libido, it’s good, but my 62 year old wife’s has left,gone, bye. That’s the least of my problems with her, though and being able to get to the gym , workout and hang out helps keep me sane. 

If your doc doesn’t know about it, find a university medical center and get someone up to speed. No need to drag around.


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## anonmd

TRT, basically sexless marriage, so you are preparing to cut her loose?


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## 23cm

anonmd said:


> TRT, basically sexless marriage, so you are preparing to cut her loose?


It's complicated, but I've come to realize there comes a time when you have to cut away the rigging to save the ship. Principal problem is she's a drunk. Other quirks stem from that.

Talking to our doc and am working on an intervention. If she doesn't go into rehab and get sober, she's made her choice...alcohol over me. 

Buh bye 23cm.

The TRT is for me, to make me feel good and to be able to accomplish things I want to do.


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## EllisRedding

23cm said:


> The TRT is for me, to make me feel good and to be able to accomplish things I want to do.


This here as well. If I do go ahead with TRT, I am doing it for me alone. If the ensuing frustration coming back is too much, then I can always stop. However, from a physical and mental standpoint I need to at least give a shot taking care of myself. I did have a long talk with my W yesterday, but realistically I am not expecting anything to come out from it.


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## Blondilocks

EllisRedding said:


> This here as well. If I do go ahead with TRT, I am doing it for me alone. If the ensuing frustration coming back is too much, then I can always stop. However, from a physical and mental standpoint I need to at least give a shot taking care of myself. I did have a long talk with my W yesterday, but realistically I am not expecting anything to come out from it.


Ellis, you and your wife need to shake things up permanently. Now that your baby girl is in school, would your wife be able to work part time? Even a few hours a week will get her out of mommy mode and have her interacting with adults on a regular basis. It could recharge her. Plenty of work for nurses.


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## EllisRedding

Blondilocks said:


> Ellis, you and your wife need to shake things up permanently. Now that your baby girl is in school, would your wife be able to work part time? Even a few hours a week will get her out of mommy mode and have her interacting with adults on a regular basis. It could recharge her. Plenty of work for nurses.


My W has been doing part time work at the schools. Likewise, we are looking at some other options as well that would fit in around our kids schedule. She does agree she needs more adult interaction and more time away from the house, etc... The reality though, as it stands now we are not a good match when it comes to the physical side. For me, it has always been something that is very important, it is what helps to define a relationship vs just a friend, and it is something I need to feel emotionally connected/invested in someone. Early on pre kids my W probably felt the same way. Now, not so much, it is not something that she needs and not something worth putting an effort in to. That being said, she has always been on the lower drive side (compared to me), and especially now I do understand how your drive (or lack of) can have a huge impact. Where we differ, I don't have much of a drive now but would still be willing to put the effort in b/c I see its importance whereas my W with low drive just focuses on other stuff. She did say she would also look into getting her hormones tested to see if part of the problem lies there (as well as re evaluating whether or not to continue with Zolof). 

Keep in mind, in all of this I am in no way looking for any sort of sympathy nor am I looking to be a martyr lol. I acknowledge my role in all this (and really am not doing anything now to try and "fix"), so I have just changed my mindset to focus more on myself. The non libido effects of having low T over the years have really taken its toll on me, so if I can help fix that side I will be happy.


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## MovingForward

I am interested in hearing your story, I am on the bottom end of normal around 300 but my libido although lower than when I was 18 is still strong, having an 18-21 year old libido would not be a good thing for me and would affect my life in a negative way LOL.

I have been interested in TRT health effects for some time though, I carry a little more stubborn fat around the belly than i used to, am weaker for sure and have a harder time recovering from the gym, need more sleep and my cholesterol is not ideal, HDL is great but LDL is a little high. I have spent a lot of times around gyms through the years and have had friends use steroids and the confidence that I see these people display in everything they do does make me envious.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Just as info. I don't know if standard but everytime I get blood work through my primary physician it includes a T test. 

That's how I knew mine was low some years ago after back surgery. 

But I don't really remember the numbers from the tests at this time.

Now I'm interested. Although libido is high, things seem ok.
Just curious now.


----------



## EllisRedding

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Just as info. I don't know if standard but everytime I get blood work through my primary physician it includes a T test.
> 
> That's how I knew mine was low some years ago after back surgery.
> 
> But I don't really remember the numbers from the tests at this time.
> 
> Now I'm interested. Although libido is high, things seem ok.
> Just curious now.


Hormones have never been part of any bloodwork I have had done, and I do get bloodwork done annually as part of my physical. In fact, my last two physicals I specifically mentioned some of the issues I was experiencing (libido, etc...) and my Dr refused to do any further bloodwork (his rationale, that is just life with a young family and work stress...)


----------



## EllisRedding

MovingForward said:


> I am interested in hearing your story, I am on the bottom end of normal around 300 but my libido although lower than when I was 18 is still strong, having an 18-21 year old libido would not be a good thing for me and would affect my life in a negative way LOL.
> 
> I have been interested in TRT health effects for some time though, I carry a little more stubborn fat around the belly than i used to, am weaker for sure and have a harder time recovering from the gym, need more sleep and my cholesterol is not ideal, HDL is great but LDL is a little high. I have spent a lot of times around gyms through the years and have had friends use steroids and the confidence that I see these people display in everything they do does make me envious.


Pretty much all the other test results from my blood work came back spot on (The Dr even noted that aside from hormones I was very healthy). The only other figure that was elevated Cholesterol which has always been that way for me since I was a kid. Not horrible, my HDL is above average. My LDL is high (but has decreased in each of the past two years). Dr said to also look at Triglycerides and VLDL when analyzing cholesterol/risk and mine were right where they should be. Pretty much what you are experiencing is what I have been dealing with.


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## MovingForward

EllisRedding said:


> Hormones have never been part of any bloodwork I have had done, and I do get bloodwork done annually as part of my physical. In fact, my last two physicals I specifically mentioned some of the issues I was experienced (libido, etc...) and my Dr refused to do any further bloodwork (his rationale, that is just life with a young family and work stress...)


I asked my Dr for the test just out of curiosity and he told me it didn't matter what the results were so he would not do the blood work, he was on the understanding you get lower as you get older and just accept it. 

I paid for my own blood test to get results.


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## EllisRedding

MovingForward said:


> I asked my Dr for the test just out of curiosity and he told me it didn't matter what the results were so he would not do the blood work, he was on the understanding you get lower as you get older and just accept it.
> 
> I paid for my own blood test to get results.


Yeah, unfortunately in my state the only way to get bloodwork done is via a prescription (which my Dr would not write). Stupid that I can't just go and pay for it on my own


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## MovingForward

EllisRedding said:


> Yeah, unfortunately in my state the only way to get bloodwork done is via a prescription (which my Dr would not write). Stupid that I can't just go and pay for it on my own


What state? I used a company called PrivateMdLabs and you choose the test and they act as your Dr and provide the request form for labs and then the lab provides them the results which they email to you.

Its all online


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## EllisRedding

MovingForward said:


> What state? I used a company called PrivateMdLabs and you choose the test and they act as your Dr and provide the request form for labs and then the lab provides them the results which they email to you.
> 
> Its all online


From PrivateMdLabs site:



> Can I use Private MD Labs if I am a resident of the state of NY, NJ, RI, MA or MD?
> No, due to state laws we cannot provide services to residents of the states of NY, NJ, RI, MA or MD. The staff members at the Patient Service Centers are required to ask for ID. If you have recently moved from one of the states that we cannot provide services, please be sure you have proof of residence for the current state in which you reside.


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## MovingForward

EllisRedding said:


> From PrivateMdLabs site:


That Sucks


----------



## Buddy400

EllisRedding said:


> Yeah, unfortunately in my state the only way to get bloodwork done is via a prescription (which my Dr would not write). Stupid that I can't just go and pay for it on my own


There are HGH clinics everywhere, even in Massachusetts (which is where I think Valhalla is located).

One of my wife's greatest regrets is that so much time was wasted due to her not understanding how much this meant to me.

And, she's enjoying sex more than she ever has.


----------



## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> There are HGH clinics everywhere, even in Massachusetts (which is where I think Valhalla is located).
> 
> One of my wife's greatest regrets is that so much time was wasted due to her not understanding how much this meant to me.
> 
> And, she's enjoying sex more than she ever has.


Well, I really can't say exactly what my W is thinking. Or better put, she sees the problem as something without an easy solution (in her mind she has never/rarely rejected me and says she is always willing to go along for the ride, so I guess that is her "contribution") ... When we spoke a few days ago I did flat out say I had zero interest in having sex with her (it was said more in the context as this being one of the symptoms I was dealing with, but the reality is the lack of libido only accounts for part of me feeling this) and that our marriage is dysfunctional at best. IDK, maybe hearing this will be enough as she did look a bit shaken when I said this. She is going to talk to her dr about the current medication she is on and wants to likewise have her bloodwork/hormones looked over, so maybe that is a start, we shall see (the hormones do of course help, but that is only part of the puzzle IMO). I am doing TRT for me and me alone as the other areas in my life it will hopefully benefit is worth the potential frustration. 

Anyways, don't want to get sidetracked on this thread. I spoke with the Dr again on Monday and will be going ahead with TRT. I should have everything by early next week, so I will gladly post over the next few months here how things go. I believe the stack will be Test, hcg, and an Anti-e (although the Dr said that based on my bloodwork I am on the low side in terms of Estrogen levels, so should be able to keep the Anti-e med to a minimum). He did mention HGH as that is also something I was fairly deficient in, but gonna hold off on that for now (aside from the cost factor, there still seems to be a bunch of mixed feedback regarding HGH therapy, in particular when it comes to longevity). One other option for HGH therapy would be mk667 which, if I understand correctly, increases your body's natural ability to produce HGH/IGF with minimal sides.


----------



## Buddy400

EllisRedding said:


> Anyways, don't want to get sidetracked on this thread. I spoke with the Dr again on Monday and will be going ahead with TRT. I should have everything by early next week, so I will gladly post over the next few months here how things go. I believe the stack will be Test, hcg, and an Anti-e (although the Dr said that based on my bloodwork I am on the low side in terms of Estrogen levels, so should be able to keep the Anti-e med to a minimum). He did mention HGH as that is also something I was fairly deficient in, but gonna hold off on that for now (aside from the cost factor, there still seems to be a bunch of mixed feedback regarding HGH therapy, in particular when it comes to longevity). One other option for HGH therapy would be mk667 which, if I understand correctly, increases your body's natural ability to produce HGH/IGF with minimal sides.


It seems most regular doctors don't take testosterone deficiency seriously.

On the other hand, one suspects that the specialized clinics may be pushing it too vigorously.

I think people really just need to be informed and make the call themselves.

On some things, doctors know for certain what's happening. On others, they're just guessing like everybody else.


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## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> It seems most regular doctors don't take testosterone deficiency seriously.
> 
> On the other hand, one suspects that the specialized clinics may be pushing it too vigorously.
> 
> I think people really just need to be informed and make the call themselves.
> 
> On some things, doctors know for certain what's happening. On others, they're just guessing like everybody else.


Agreed. My doctor blew off my concerns for the last few years. I would guess the specialized clinics will push hard in an attempt to legitimize their business.

Will be interesting to see what comes back with my W. She mentioned all this to one of her friend's who recommended to her a doctor that does a lot of work on the hormonal side (including females). Maybe that will help explain some of the issues my W is having, although TBH I have built up a bit of resentment towards her that IMO goes beyond just a quick hormonal fix (something I know I need to work on).


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## wilson

Is there any research comparing strenuous weightlifting to TRT treatment? I've always heard that building muscles increases testosterone production. Since a sedentary lifestyle leads to muscle loss, I wouldn't be surprised if the body reacts by reducing testosterone production. How much improvement can be achieved just through working out?


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## EllisRedding

wilson said:


> Is there any research comparing strenuous weightlifting to TRT treatment? I've always heard that building muscles increases testosterone production. Since a sedentary lifestyle leads to muscle loss, I wouldn't be surprised if the body reacts by reducing testosterone production. How much improvement can be achieved just through working out?


Only speaking about myself, I have been doing strenuous weightlifting for a while now, and my T levels are in the crapper lol. I believe that frequently overexerting yourself when it comes to exercise can actually lower your T levels, decrease your immunity, etc...


----------



## Young at Heart

EllisRedding said:


> 1.....how has your experience been?
> 
> 2.......What are the noticeable effects (positive and negative) since you started HRT?
> 
> 3........What are you using (if you don't mind disclosing)?
> 
> 4........Any concerns with needing to be on TRT for the rest of your life?
> 
> 5........Are the costs covered by your insurance or is it mostly out of pocket?
> 
> .


1. Over the past 10 years experience has been positive, but I am now 70.

2. Increased muscle mass, easier to exercise, stronger bones, more confidence (which translates to better libido). Negative, much small testicles and as you know am on it for life.


3. First it was Androgel 1%, then Generic 1% Topical Testosterone gel/cream. then Androgel 1.6%, then compounding pharmacy topical testosterone gel.

4. Considering that what tipped the scale was that I had a bone scan done prior to starting and I had bone loss and my blood T levels were below 200. So it was kind of a no-brainer to get on HTR. It helped me regain muscle mass and bone density and I now have a more athletic lifestyle. 

So, I have no real permanent concerns. I read just about every medical study article on the death related side effects of HRT for men. What I found was that most of the tests were on men in pathetic physical condition. Such as men who could not walk 1 block or up a single flight of stairs and that HTR helped them build muscle mass so they could be more active, but that they probably died trying to do things that a fragile body was not yet capable of. 

5. Insurance Yes and No. 

Originally, the cost was covered out of medical insurance, but the co-pays were high. Why I started funding it myself was because the health insurance company jerked me around. Let me explain. 

I started on Androgel 1% and they paid because there was documentation for low T through testing. My doctor put me on it and through testing adjusted the dosage to bring me into a proper range. 

Then a generic form of 1% Testosterone gel came on the market and the Insurance company said I had to switch or they wouldn't pay. OK, so we switched at the same dose. Mistake! the T-level dropped below 200, to Doctor needed to adjust the dosage around over a 9 month period to get me back into a normal range. The carrier solution makes a huge difference in the absorption rate. 

Then Androgel 1.6% hit the market and the Insurance company said, no they have a special deal with Pfeizer and so they would no longer pay for the generic, but I needed to use the new name brand stuff. Yes they insisted I switch from generic to name brand. OK, Doctor changes the prescription to the 1.6% and we does blood tests after a few months. Guess what, it takes 8 months to adjust the dosage back into the normal range by changing the dosage. 

At that point the co-pays are running about $135 for a 3-month supply. In adjusting the dosage based on Test results the insurance company says "nope" the dosage of 1.6% is too high based on their medical review, even though the blood test T results are below normal range. They put a hold on payments for that pharmaceutical and said if I didn't like it, I could appeal. I did appeal and got an attorney to represent me. In the end, it was clear that they just didn't care and all the stuff they were doing was to try to lower their pharmaceutical expenses. They would not budge and the insurance carrier nor State Insurance Commissioner cared. 

I say to hell with it and start looking for a compounding pharmacy that will provide a Testosterone topical cream with a known carrier base. Work with my doctor to get the dosage adjusted so I am in the normal range and actually a little more lite the upper middle of the normal range for a man of my age. The compounding pharmacy won't change the carrier or jerk me around with new formulations. Now I pay about $160 out of pocket with no interaction with the insurance company for a 4 month supply. So the cost is about the same and the hassle factor is much less, plus I don't go through long periods of adjusting the dosage to get it right.

Whatever you do, get yourself a doctor who really understands HTR and has been doing it with patients for quite a while. I would suggest starting with a prescription that the insurance company supports, and do blood work to get the dosage where you want your T-levels. Then switch to a compounding pharmacy. Not all compounding pharmacies are the same or good. Investigate on that you trust and has high reviews.

Good luck.


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## EllisRedding

OK, so thought I would post a quick update. I am 2 weeks in with TRT. Never given myself shots before so wasn't sure how that would go, I literally watched the same youtube video about 20 times before I finally took the plunge lol. 

What have I noticed so far? A definite boost to libido (including daily morning wood coming back with vengeance lol). My mood does seem a bit improved (although I am generally in a good mood either way). My last few workouts my drive seems to be back some, feel more focused. I don't have any sides as of now that I can see (I have been dealing with some migraines / cluster headaches but that had been there before starting). My weight did seem to jump up a few pounds which may be some initial water weight.

Funny enough, my biggest concern about going down this route was the libido jump, as my lack of libido had brought me peace of mind for a while now. In the past week though, my W and I have probably already doubled what our total was for 2018 lol. IDK, we will see if this lasts. It does seem like after our last conversation that things may have finally clicked in her head (for now I will be cautiously optimistic). I am sure this as well has a part in my mood, something she has noticed and commented about several times. 

2 weeks in, so far so good.


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## EllisRedding

OK, so one more follow up for those interested as I come into my 4th week.

Overall, everything is going well. Libido is alive and kicking. Motivation/drive has improved. General sense of well being has improved. Joints/body finally starting to feel better, workouts are more focused. Things in marriage are doing much better. To date I haven't noticed any sides (except maybe a quick bump in weight which I guess is water weight, but I don't look bloated at all). Right now I give myself a shot once a week and haven't noticed any sort of drop off as I get towards the end of each week. The Dr prescribed to me HCG as well and suggested I use towards the end of the week as that would help smooth things over. 

In terms of TRT, this is something I had researched plenty before I started (and even continued researching as of now). I think to some extent, and maybe this isn't the right word, there was a sense of shame. Getting feedback from people here and elsewhere, and speaking to the doctor helped put my mind at ease. Most people I talked to were 100% glad they had gone this route as the change to their quality of life improved dramatically. I guess I just didn't like the fact that there was something medically wrong with me, something that I had no control over, maybe a sense of not being "man" enough, IDK. One person in particular who I was talking to, I asked if he had any regrets and what his W thought about it. His comments were that he had no regrets, he felt and performed great. As far as his W, she loved it, and why wouldn't she, as he was healthier and happier than ever before. For me, I could either continue going through life as is. On the outside, things look great. I have a beautiful wife and kids. I have managed a successful career to date. I could either just sit around and continue being a shell of my former self, or I could take back control. I know it is still early on, but right now I feel like I am back on the right track.

Unfortunately, it still seems all too common for many doctors here to have very little understanding of TRT/Health. A perfect example, I was talking to a friend of mine. He is same age, married, children, etc... Pretty much all of the symptoms I was dealing with he was dealing with as well. Now this doesn't mean he has any sort of hormonal issue, but he went to go see his doctor and request a full blood panel be done (including hormone levels), explained to the doctor everything he was experiencing. She agreed to the blood panel, but apparently based on his symptoms she said he should go see a psychiatrist, maybe he is bi polar  Now keep in mind, I have known him a long time. I know very much what he is dealing with in terms of symptoms. It seems a rather far stretch to take that and go after it being a mental disorder. Sure enough though, seems like many doctors have itchy fingers to just throw you on Prozac or other medication than seriously trying to understand the root cause of the symptoms and how best to fix. Somehow, getting loaded up with mental altering medications is the healthier alternative ...

My one caveat in all of this, and several others here have mentioned as well. Do not go this route if your sex life is missing. That was a huge concern of mine going into this given where things were in my marriage, but fortunately as of now things have taken a big 180 ( @Buddy400 as someone who has had frequent conversations with me here at TAM regarding, maybe I will do a follow up post clarifying what has changed and why so you can stop wanting to knock me over the head with a bat  )


----------



## Buddy400

EllisRedding said:


> My one caveat in all of this, and several others here have mentioned as well. Do not go this route if your sex life is missing. That was a huge concern of mine going into this given where things were in my marriage, but fortunately as of now things have taken a big 180 ( @Buddy400 as someone who has had frequent conversations with me here at TAM regarding, maybe I will do a follow up post clarifying what has changed and why so you can stop wanting to knock me over the head with a bat  )


So, my bat finally made contact? Great, my arms were getting tired 

Yay! You've been one of the few people here who I felt certain I had the capability to actually help.

Yes, a follow-up post could help others (and satisfy my curiosity).


----------



## MovingForward

EllisRedding said:


> OK, so one more follow up for those interested as I come into my 4th week.
> 
> Overall, everything is going well. Libido is alive and kicking. Motivation/drive has improved. General sense of well being has improved. Joints/body finally starting to feel better, workouts are more focused. Things in marriage are doing much better. To date I haven't noticed any sides (except maybe a quick bump in weight which I guess is water weight, but I don't look bloated at all). Right now I give myself a shot once a week and haven't noticed any sort of drop off as I get towards the end of each week. The Dr prescribed to me HCG as well and suggested I use towards the end of the week as that would help smooth things over.
> 
> In terms of TRT, this is something I had researched plenty before I started (and even continued researching as of now). I think to some extent, and maybe this isn't the right word, there was a sense of shame. Getting feedback from people here and elsewhere, and speaking to the doctor helped put my mind at ease. Most people I talked to were 100% glad they had gone this route as the change to their quality of life improved dramatically. I guess I just didn't like the fact that there was something medically wrong with me, something that I had no control over, maybe a sense of not being "man" enough, IDK. One person in particular who I was talking to, I asked if he had any regrets and what his W thought about it. His comments were that he had no regrets, he felt and performed great. As far as his W, she loved it, and why wouldn't she, as he was healthier and happier than ever before. For me, I could either continue going through life as is. On the outside, things look great. I have a beautiful wife and kids. I have managed a successful career to date. I could either just sit around and continue being a shell of my former self, or I could take back control. I know it is still early on, but right now I feel like I am back on the right track.
> 
> Unfortunately, it still seems all too common for many doctors here to have very little understanding of TRT/Health. A perfect example, I was talking to a friend of mine. He is same age, married, children, etc... Pretty much all of the symptoms I was dealing with he was dealing with as well. Now this doesn't mean he has any sort of hormonal issue, but he went to go see his doctor and request a full blood panel be done (including hormone levels), explained to the doctor everything he was experiencing. She agreed to the blood panel, but apparently based on his symptoms she said he should go see a psychiatrist, maybe he is bi polar  Now keep in mind, I have known him a long time. I know very much what he is dealing with in terms of symptoms. It seems a rather far stretch to take that and go after it being a mental disorder. Sure enough though, seems like many doctors have itchy fingers to just throw you on Prozac or other medication than seriously trying to understand the root cause of the symptoms and how best to fix. Somehow, getting loaded up with mental altering medications is the healthier alternative ...
> 
> My one caveat in all of this, and several others here have mentioned as well. Do not go this route if your sex life is missing. That was a huge concern of mine going into this given where things were in my marriage, but fortunately as of now things have taken a big 180 ( @Buddy400 as someone who has had frequent conversations with me here at TAM regarding, maybe I will do a follow up post clarifying what has changed and why so you can stop wanting to knock me over the head with a bat  )


Thank you for sharing your progress


----------



## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> So, my bat finally made contact? Great, my arms were getting tired
> 
> Yay! You've been one of the few people here who I felt certain I had the capability to actually help.
> 
> Yes, a follow-up post could help others (and satisfy my curiosity).


Lol, thanks for hanging in there. Funny enough, it seems that deciding I was just going to take care of myself and f the sex life is what got things back on track...

The quick summary  After I got my bloodwork done and results back, I talked with my W. Honestly, the point wasn't to talk about us or our relationship, I just wanted to make sure she understand/was ok with me going through with TRT (it wasn't something I was looking to hide from her). I explained to her the test results, the symptoms I had been dealing with, and what the doctor said. Since part of that is obvious libido related, I was brutally honest and told her I had zero interest in having sex with her anymore. Part of this was indeed hormone related, but the other part had to do with our relationship (the hormone issue just made it a lot easier for me to accept/deal with without getting frustrated). Given I have always been interested in sex, hearing me say that shook her a lot (but I was being honest, and I would think for most people having their SO say they don't want to have sex with them would rattle them a bit). I also told her flat out that our marriage was broken / dysfunctional. This is not a normal relationship by any stretch. From the outside looking in at our marriage, many people would probably think we have a very healthy marriage, and in many respects we do. Admitting that things were broken, saying it out loud, seemed to resonate with her.

In her mind, she has always taken the approach (and she has said to me several times) that she is happy to go along for the ride (i.e. from a Responsive Desire standpoint, if I am ever in the mood, I am free to start something, and usually once I get started she quickly gets into it). All fine and good, I am sure many husbands would love to hear that. It is one thing if she was making an effort, and then telling me this to cover the gap. Not making an effort at all though, it really seemed as a way to take any responsibility away from her when it came towards our sex life. This is a big reason why it diminished so much over the last few years. I stopped making an effort. If I didn't make an effort, she wasn't going to, 8 months would quickly go by with nothing happening...

Since we talked, as I mentioned, things are completely different. I would probably say it almost feels closer to when we first started dating. The focus is back on spending time together. If I had to guess, in the last 2 years we probably had sex 10 times, we are already well past that in the last 3+ weeks. We continue to talk about things, and she has been asking me questions to get a better understanding of everything. She has already made plans for a sitter so we can go out to dinner (doesn't sound like a big deal, but this was one of the issues as probably in the last 10 years I am the only one who had ever made plans for us to get away from the kids, another responsibility thrown solely on me). All she keeps commenting about is how better things are now, how noticeably happier I am as well as her, etc... 

When this started, I was just hoping to get some help with my knee issues and motivation at the gym lol.


----------



## Buddy400

EllisRedding said:


> All she keeps commenting about is how better things are now, how noticeably happier I am as well as her, etc...


You need to ask her how to best go about reminding her if she starts to not remember this.

Somehow, inexplicably, this does seem to happen sometimes.


----------



## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> You need to ask her how to best go about reminding her if she starts to not remember this.
> 
> Somehow, inexplicably, this does seem to happen sometimes.


Agreed. It is a bit of a head scratcher b/c this isn't something new. Whenever we have had a somewhat normal sex life, things are always better with both of us (all things she has noted in the past). I can only guess that it has been so long since things have been normal, maybe she lost sight of that. I think at this point she truly acknowledges how broken our marriage had become and the fact that I had lost all interest in her as the breaking point.


----------



## Buddy400

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed. It is a bit of a head scratcher b/c this isn't something new. Whenever we have had a somewhat normal sex life, things are always better with both of us (all things she has noted in the past). I can only guess that it has been so long since things have been normal, maybe she lost sight of that. I think at this point she truly acknowledges how broken our marriage had become and the fact that I had lost all interest in her as the breaking point.


Btw, did she ever explain what her thoughts were during the drought?


----------



## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> Btw, did she ever explain what her thoughts were during the drought?


Sort of. She has always fallen back on the "always willing to go along for the ride" viewpoint, so with that any sort of drought now becomes my issue/fault. Also, these droughts have not been uncommon over the years (since we had kids) with the exception of each drought being longer than the one before, so I am guessing she figured at some point I would make a big stink about it, we would talk, things would get fixed temporarily, rinse & repeat. In this particular instance, I don't think she knew what to make of my lack of interest. She said she just got into the frame of mind that we were each going to do our own thing (seems odd to just accept that, but I would guess that was more her rationale for my lack of caring).

We were talking a few weeks ago, and she asked me if part of my issue was because I have so much responsibility at work and at home (in terms of financial support) that after all that I was tired of having to manage everyone else and instead wanted her to pick up the slack on the sex side. It was kinda weird that was her thinking, but I was glad she brought it up as it at least helped me understand what was going through her head. Really, that was furthest from the truth though lol. I have zero issues taking the lead in all aspects of my life, that is just who I am, and I know my W feeds off of this as well. All I really wanted in terms of sex life was for my W to actually show that it was a critical part of our marriage, and actually do something about it (actions speak louder than words). Step up before we go through a drought instead of just waiting on me. For the past month or so we have had a very good stretch. This week though I have been sick, so things came to a halt as expected. She said to me yesterday that as soon as I get better we need to get back on track. Something simple like that is really all I want to hear. We didn't get into this relationship to be roommates and there is little reason to accept as such.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Excerpt from ER's post:

"but I was glad she brought it up as it at least helped me understand what was going through her head. "

Is a most, most critical concept of what I really like, when dear W has any questions or comments on any discussions we have. Not just top tier topics, but even mundane stuff.

Breaking the excerpt down there are two important items:

1. "she brought it up."

2. "it helped me to understand what was going through her head."

ER's sentence following that action is something I relate to, which was "I had no idea she was thinking that" or for me, in some discussions "I hadn't thought of that", paraphrasing. Which I say sometimes after dear W says certain things.

'Cause if a woman won't say what's going on in her mind we (I) certainly don't always know!!!

I don't want to speak for all men, or to generalize things, but it's a great help to me, when dear W will bring things up, and tell me what she's thinking.

If these two actions were followed, there would be a lot less miscommunication between SOs, and men and women in any relationship. 

Just sayin'.


----------



## EllisRedding

Alright, so another quick update here. I am I think a little past 6 weeks in since I started. Overall, things have been going very well. Energy is up, libido is up, sense of well being has improved. My workouts have been much improved, better focus and motivation. I have also worked off the excess weight I added when I first started the therapy (guessing water weight). One thing, I can't remember if I mentioned, but as part of the therapy, my dr put me on a low dose of Deca. The reason, one of the issues I had been dealing with is a lot of joint pain, especially in my knees and elbow. Just going up/down the stairs was painful. I play softball every week, and by the end of each games it is difficult for me to walk. Deca has been known to increase collagen synthesis, which has a positive effect on the joints. I can say that in 6 weeks, my joint pain is practically gone. That alone is huge because it allows me to get back to being more active (and not look like a 90 yr old going up the stairs). 

Now the potential issue, when I first started TRT my libido went through the roof. A stiff breeze and I was at full attention, ready to go on a moments notice. Maybe a little inconvenient at times, but overall it was a nice change of pace from how I had been. A few weeks ago I noticed that even though frequent thoughts of sex were still there, I wasn't quite responding to like I had been. Also, when having sex, the longer the session, I found the quality of the erection did seem to diminish (where I found I had to focus more to keep things going). I was reading around and speaking to a few other people, and it appears this is one of the potential side effects of deca (known as Deca [email protected], impact on the ability to get an erection as well as libido loss). This is typically seen in those who use much higher doses (typical bodybuilder type dosages), but even at a lower dose some people may be susceptible to. I am scheduled to have my follow up with my Doctor in 3 weeks, so assuming it doesn't worsen, I can wait until then to discuss. Obviously taking something that would negatively affect libido/sexual function is not optimal.

Separate note, one of the other things that came back with my bloodwork was that my IGF levels were very low. My doctor had talked about some HGH therapies to alleviate this, but said we could wait until after I had some time on the current treatment to discuss. I have no interest in going down the road of HGH injections (the cost is rather expensive, and likewise there are conflicting reports about potential health concerns). Another option is to use something that stimulates your body's natural production. One of the growing options right now is Sermorelin Forte Plus. Below is some information regarding:



> Sermorelin Forte Plus is a unique medical combination of Sermorelin, Growth Hormone Releasing Peptide 6 (GHRP-6) and Growth Hormone Releasing Peptide 2 (GHRP‐2). This anti-aging therapy is formulated to achieve the fullest potential from the body’s natural production of growth hormone and improve your overall health. This is due to the introduction of Growth Hormone Releasing Peptide 2 (GHRP‐2) to the Sermorelin and GHRP‐6. GHRP‐2 is reportedly the most potent of these peptides.
> 
> Sermorelin by itself will only stimulate the pituitary gland in the base of the brain to release Growth Hormone (GH). GHRP-6 and GHRP-2 are synthetic peptides that directly stimulate the pituitary gland to produce more GH. Additionally, as an anti-aging therapy, GHRP- 6 and GHRP‐2 stimulate the hypothalamus to release naturally produced GHRH. Most importantly, GHRP‐2 and GHRP-6 work on separate receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary resulting dual site action.
> 
> When using Sermorelin, GHRP‐6 and GHRP‐ 2 together, Sermorelin Forte Plus should achieve the highest level of both the production and release of endogenous GH, most likely resulting in increasing the body’s natural GH levels. This anti-aging therapy increases the Human Growth Hormone levels, as well as the IGF-1 level, and should only be used under medical supervision.
> 
> Studies have shown that this supplement yields the following health benefits:
> 
> Increases the development of lean body mass through the development of new muscle cells and reduces fat through lipolysis
> Increase energy and vitality
> Increase strength and endurance
> Strengthens the heart
> Enhances the immune system
> Improves sleep quality
> Decreases signs of low testosterone
> Increases calcium retention, and strengthens and increases the mineralization of bone or bone density
> Increases protein synthesis and stimulates the growth of all internal organs except the brain
> Increases the level of Human Growth Hormone
> Reduces liver uptake of glucose, an effect that opposes that of insulin
> Decreases symptoms of depression
> Improved skin elasticity and overall health


----------



## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> Btw, did she ever explain what her thoughts were during the drought?


One other thing to add Buddy. As I had mentioned, when I brought up the whole TRT thing with her, we had a chance to talk, and things have been significantly better since then. This past weekend we had a setback though (a couple of issues came up that I probably over reacted on). After a couple of days of basically just avoiding each other, we finally sat down and aired everything out. On my side, I still had a lot of built up resentment from how things were over the years. Much of this I had eventually just pushed aside, but with TRT and mentality/physically feeling a lot better, it brought back a lot of this resentment. Likewise with my W, there have been some things which over the years she has buried as well. As well as things had been the past month or so, this past weekend showed that we really had a lot more to iron out if we were truly going to move forward (and if we didn't discuss, at some point the ball was going to drop again). We both talked about areas where we felt there was a gap in our marriage or where needs were not being met. We also went through the 5 love languages, as the bigger issue was we were always looking at things from our own POV and assuming that must be how the other feels as well (which, when you have a different love language leads to a lot of miscommunication). I think at this point, this is probably the best I have felt in terms of where our marriage is headed and both of us being on the same page. 

Funny enough, this all started when I went down the TRT route, and really at that point my focus was not on "fixing" my marriage as it was more about just fixing me.


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## SimplyAmorous

EllisRedding said:


> Pretty much all the other test results from my blood work came back spot on (The Dr even noted that aside from hormones I was very healthy). The only other figure that was elevated Cholesterol which has always been that way for me since I was a kid. Not horrible, my HDL is above average. My LDL is high (but has decreased in each of the past two years). Dr said to also look at Triglycerides and VLDL when analyzing cholesterol/risk and mine were right where they should be. Pretty much what you are experiencing is what I have been dealing with.


Yours and @MovingForward 's posts sound very much like my husband... it was about 10 yrs ago we had his Test levels checked (he was 45 at the time)... I recall the Doc saying his levels were like a 60 yr old man .... of course they didn't feel he needed anything...just offered some Viagra...

The sole reason he went for testing was cause I wanted it / made the appointments - that he couldn't keep up with ME....(I suddenly became insatiably drived -really opens one's eyes!).... he has never been a ball of energy.. very laid back, never aggressive...I can't say he was becoming more emotional (always steady in such areas), he wasn't depressed either... as far as strength, well.. more could be desired there... the job he has requires so much strength and he gets by... but it's true, even older co-workers could easily outdo him in this department... He tried working out a little.. but never kept up with it. 

I've had others tell us HE SHOULD BE GETTING TREATMENT when I shared his numbers... I bought books on Testosterone, was reading everything I could online....One book spoke how some men may be "lower" all their lives and for them.. the lower #'s may be OK... I come to the conclusion.. I think my husband falls in this category beings he really has no major symptoms that is hampering his life (he's not falling asleep after work for example -even if he worked 18 hrs straight)...sure he would be beat... but he's not falling over, complaining or anything... 

And slithers of Viagra - this works for enhancing our nights... he's always ready/willing to go there....keeps the wife happy!

About the lower numbers...I tried to explain some of that on this Thread (post #11) .. it was my posts about my husband that caught Deejo's attention - then he went & got tested... 

 Dealing with Low Testosterone - Hypogonadism 

A few yrs later.. got him retested ...and his #'s were higher .. That was exciting ! (I recall his job being very stressful with a new boss from hell during that time of testing yrs earlier- maybe that was part of it)... but he's never been tested since..

Do you have any major stress going on?


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## EllisRedding

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yours and @MovingForward 's posts sound very much like my husband... it was about 10 yrs ago we had his Test levels checked (he was 45 at the time)... I recall the Doc saying his levels were like a 60 yr old man .... of course they didn't feel he needed anything...just offered some Viagra...
> 
> The sole reason he went for testing was cause I wanted it / made the appointments - that he couldn't keep up with ME....(I suddenly became insatiably drived -really opens one's eyes!).... he has never been a ball of energy.. very laid back, never aggressive...I can't say he was becoming more emotional (always steady in such areas), he wasn't depressed either... as far as strength, well.. more could be desired there... the job he has requires so much strength and he gets by... but it's true, even older co-workers could easily outdo him in this department... He tried working out a little.. but never kept up with it.
> 
> I've had others tell us HE SHOULD BE GETTING TREATMENT when I shared his numbers... I bought books on Testosterone, was reading everything I could online....One book spoke how some men may be "lower" all their lives and for them.. the lower #'s may be OK... I come to the conclusion.. I think my husband falls in this category beings he really has no major symptoms that is hampering his life (he's not falling asleep after work for example -even if he worked 18 hrs straight)...sure he would be beat... but he's not falling over, complaining or anything...
> 
> And slithers of Viagra - this works for enhancing our nights... he's always ready/willing to go there....keeps the wife happy!
> 
> About the lower numbers...I tried to explain some of that on this Thread (post #11) .. it was my posts about my husband that caught Deejo's attention - then he went & got tested...
> 
> Dealing with Low Testosterone - Hypogonadism
> 
> A few yrs later.. got him retested ...and his #'s were higher .. That was exciting ! (I recall his job being very stressful with a new boss from hell during that time of testing yrs earlier- maybe that was part of it)... but he's never been tested since..
> 
> Do you have any major stress going on?


When I spoke with my Dr, he mentioned that there were several factors that need to be looked at, which includes not only looking at bloodwork but also assessing if the person is actually experiencing any negative sides. If someone has low T, but no associated sides, then really it is something that can just be monitored. I believe as well there is something called SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) which binds various hormones, including Testosterone. The higher your SHBG levels, the less use you get out of your hormones. Someone could have a normal or even high total Test level, but have low Free Test levels (which is what your body actually utilizes) which could in part be due to an excessive amount of test binding to SHBG. Lower #s don't necessarily mean you will be symptomatic if your body is efficient in utilizing what you have.

For me, who knows, maybe I have always been on the lower side, and just that as I got older it finally got to a point where it became noticeable? I know it was my physical 2 years ago when I first mentioned to my doctor that I was noticing various symptoms (not knowing what the cause was). I was blown off, told it was just the normal process of getting older, working, family life, etc.. Same thing for last year's physical, mentioned again what I was experiencing and was given nothing more than a shoulder shrug. Really stinks, b/c that is two years where I could have possibly done something if I had a doctor who actually took my health seriously.

There still seems to be quite the stigma surrounding TRT, but I am hopeful that is something that will change over time (especially if you believe that due to environmental / food / etc... males now as showing lower levels of test vs. 50 years ago).


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## SimplyAmorous

I was going back reading some of your posts...I see you are getting treated & your Insurance was a HUGE yo-yo hassle in this regard... never heard of a "Compounding Pharmacy".. was looking some of this up.. found this video where this guy is explaining it... 






Sounds things are looking up for you Ellis -in more ways than just your test... Wonderful to hear!


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## EllisRedding

SimplyAmorous said:


> I was going back reading some of your posts...I see you are getting treated & your Insurance was a HUGE yo-yo hassle in this regard... never heard of a "Compounding Pharmacy".. was looking some of this up.. found this video where this guy is explaining it...
> 
> Sounds things are looking up for you Ellis -in more ways than just your test... Wonderful to hear!


Actually, I think you might have gotten my posts mixed up with someone else here as I didn't mention anything about Insurance. In fact, my insurance isn't covering any of this (I am using my HSA account to pay for, so I at least get a tax break for that, and so far the costs are not bad).

Yes, things are significantly better since Mid December. As I think I mentioned, going down the TRT path, my intention honestly was not doing so with the expectation of fixing/improving my marriage (I was really doing it solely for myself). However, at a minimum I wanted to be completely open with my W about why I was doing TRT (it wasn't something I was looking to hide). That really unexpectedly forced us to sit down and throw it all out there, clear the air completely. As of now, this is probably the best things have been between us in close to a decade I would say.


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## MovingForward

@EllisRedding, how is the TRT working out?


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## EllisRedding

MovingForward said:


> @EllisRedding, how is the TRT working out?


So far so good. I am at the end of my 8th week. My prescriptions go for 10 weeks, so I just had a call with the Dr a few days ago to go over everything, see if any adjustments were needed before I reorder. The one thing I brought up was the libido drop I had noticed over the last few weeks or so (along with some signs of fatigue). He thinks it is a combination of my estrogen spiking (offsetting some of the benefits of the test) and the deca. I take anastrozle (sp?) for the Estrogen, but a very low dose (based on my bloodwork, my E was on the low side to start, so the Dr wanted to keep the dosage low and adjust as needed). He had me increase the dosage and cut the Deca dosage as well (this is only short term anyhow, but has made a huge difference in getting rid of my knees/elbow pain). Test dosage will remain the same. Additionally, I am going to try a Sermorelin blend (my IGF came in at the bottom end of the range). I will definitely report back on how this works. 

Having to give myself a shot every week is not a big deal at all, usually just takes a few minutes to get all done. Right now I have just been injecting into my quads. A couple of instances my quad would get pretty sore the next day, but typically I don't notice much. I haven't noticed any sort of mood swings or drops as I get to the end of the week before I do my next shot. Worse case, I could just split the shot up into 2x a week, but right now not needed.

In terms of physical performance / physique. My strength / focus has definitely come back at the gym. Actually, almost too much, I started pushing myself a little too hard too quick, so backing off this week as my shoulders got cranky. Hope is to do a powerlifting meet this summer as long as I can do injury free. I am still trying to gauge my physique (it is still early on). My weight is up about 3-4 lbs in 8 weeks, which I think is to be expected. That being said, I am starting to see signs I am leaning out a little. I don't have a whole lot of fat except for that darn belly fat (I am sitting at about 19-20% body fat).

As of now, and I know it is still early, I am so glad I went this route. There has been a noticeable difference in my quality of life (not only physically/mentally, but also carrying over into my marriage as well).


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## EllisRedding

Another note. I had mentioned that I had been describing my symptoms to my general doctor for several years and was blown off each time (married with kids, work a lot, life stresses, this is all normal...). I mentioned one of my friends was experiencing many of the same symptoms, and finally convinced his doctor to get bloodword done (which included only a basic hormone test, I think just his total number). His number came back around 315, which is "in range", if only he was an 80 yr old male. The doctor sent him to the urologists to discuss the results. Once again, my friend mentioned everything he was experiencing, etc... and the urologist gave him the same speech (your numbers are fine, this is part of life, etc...). It really is a shame that so many doctors are so closed to alternative therapies, and so quick to dismiss their patients (my friend's doctor even suggested that he was bi polar based on the symptoms he had described :slap: ). Funny enough though, I bet if I had gone to my doctor and said I was depressed, he would have moved at lightning speed to write me an AD prescription...


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## Faithful Wife

EllisRedding said:


> Another note. I had mentioned that I had been describing my symptoms to my general doctor for several years and was blown off each time (married with kids, work a lot, life stresses, this is all normal...). I mentioned one of my friends was experiencing many of the same symptoms, and finally convinced his doctor to get bloodword done (which included only a basic hormone test, I think just his total number). His number came back around 315, which is "in range", if only he was an 80 yr old male. The doctor sent him to the urologists to discuss the results. Once again, my friend mentioned everything he was experiencing, etc... and the urologist gave him the same speech (your numbers are fine, this is part of life, etc...). It really is a shame that so many doctors are so closed to alternative therapies, and so quick to dismiss their patients (my friend's doctor even suggested that he was bi polar based on the symptoms he had described :slap: ). Funny enough though, I bet if I had gone to my doctor and said I was depressed, he would have moved at lightning speed to write me an AD prescription...


I think this is why these men’s clinics have popped up everywhere.


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## Faithful Wife

EllisRedding said:


> One other thing to add Buddy. As I had mentioned, when I brought up the whole TRT thing with her, we had a chance to talk, and things have been significantly better since then. This past weekend we had a setback though (a couple of issues came up that I probably over reacted on). After a couple of days of basically just avoiding each other, we finally sat down and aired everything out. On my side, I still had a lot of built up resentment from how things were over the years. Much of this I had eventually just pushed aside, but with TRT and mentality/physically feeling a lot better, it brought back a lot of this resentment. Likewise with my W, there have been some things which over the years she has buried as well. As well as things had been the past month or so, this past weekend showed that we really had a lot more to iron out if we were truly going to move forward (and if we didn't discuss, at some point the ball was going to drop again). We both talked about areas where we felt there was a gap in our marriage or where needs were not being met. We also went through the 5 love languages, as the bigger issue was we were always looking at things from our own POV and assuming that must be how the other feels as well (which, when you have a different love language leads to a lot of miscommunication). I think at this point, this is probably the best I have felt in terms of where our marriage is headed and both of us being on the same page.
> 
> Funny enough, this all started when I went down the TRT route, and really at that point my focus was not on "fixing" my marriage as it was more about just fixing me.


Have you two continued talking and working on these things? I hope so. Work them all out, iron everything, and keep pursuing sex while you do it. And try to have a little bit of sunshine towards each other all the time to help get through the times everyone is cranky about something. :smile2:


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## EllisRedding

Faithful Wife said:


> Have you two continued talking and working on these things? I hope so. Work them all out, iron everything, and keep pursuing sex while you do it. And try to have a little bit of sunshine towards each other all the time to help get through the times everyone is cranky about something. :smile2:


You bet. Even stupid stuff. One of her things is that I never say anything when I don't feel well, so at times she perceived it as I am mad at her (when in actuality, it is nothing more than my head wants to explode). This morning I had a migraine and was in a fog, so I was out of it when I was talking to my W before I left for work. This afternoon I sent her a text to let her know I hadn't been feeling well and she said she was relieved I told her b/c she thought I was mad at her (it has been about a week since we did anything, but that was b/c it was her time of the month, which combined with me getting up at 3am for work each day, nothing was going to happen which was fine). Old habit of mine not saying I don't feel well, which is the reason why I sent her a text, trying to break that habit. 

Funny too, when I first brought up the whole TRT thing, it got us talking and things got better. A few weeks later, I was having a $h!tty week at work and was averaging 3 hours of broken sleep at night, so I was grumpy and a bit of a d$ck to my W over something small (which is very out of character for me, my W could count on one hand the numbers of times she has ever seen me mad in the 20+ years she has known me). That did force us to really throw it all out there, clean the slate and be completely open. Not saying things wouldn't still be going well if this didn't happen, but there was a lot of resentment built up that was eventually going to rear its head if we didn't address.

Some of the changes we have made. A legit kiss (not a peck or something you would give a relative ... unless you are from West Virginia :surprise for certain times every single day without fail, no excuses (i.e. When I leave for work, big kiss and hug, same when I get home from work, and likewise when we go to bed). I know it doesn't sound like much, but we had gotten into the habit where in the mornings I actually rarely saw my W before I left for work. When I got home we would just say a quick hi. Bedtime, we would typically just roll over to our own sides. Roommates basically. 

Sex a minimum of 2x a week. I'd say we have been averaging about 3x or so as of now (In less than two months we have easily surpassed our mark for the previous 2 years combined... sad, I know...)

Date night 2x a month

During the weekend, making sure we set some time aside during the day, even if just 5 minutes to sit down and chat (typically weekend we are usually off to the races doing different things with different kids, or our own thing)

I head out for a work conference in Vegas in March, so once the conference is done I am flying her out for a 4 day vacation sans kids.

I actually look forward to seeing her and spending time with her again, something that had been long gone for quite some time.


----------



## EllisRedding

Faithful Wife said:


> I think this is why these men’s clinics have popped up everywhere.


Agreed, filling a need to that general practitioners seem unwilling to fill. There also still seems to be a general stigma around HRT/TRT (I would say even worse for women vs men), but hopefully this is something that will change over time. It is funny how many people are willing to put their body through hell, do all these fad/crash diets, look for miracle cures, pop xyz medication like its candy, this is all normal and accepted. Tell them about trying to balance their hormones out for a better quality of life, and they look at you like you have fives heads and must be one of the steroid abusing bodybuilders. 

Someone had his W post a video on youtube about her TRT experience that she started 6 months ago and how it completely changed her. If I can remember where I found it, I may post in the Cougar Central section. For men, I at least feel like there is a lot more information and support out there. For women, not so much, which is a shame.


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## Phil Anders

If you get sick of sore quads, get some 31g insulin pins and just do it sub Q (flank or hip/buttocks works well). Been doing it that way for years, no problems.


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## EllisRedding

Phil Anders said:


> If you get sick of sore quads, get some 31g insulin pins and just do it sub Q (flank or hip/buttocks works well). Been doing it that way for years, no problems.


Will definitely keep that in mind. So far I am ok with the quads, but yeah, I could see that getting old at some point.


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## MovingForward

EllisRedding said:


> *In terms of physical performance / physique. My strength / focus has definitely come back at the gym*. Actually, almost too much, I started pushing myself a little too hard too quick, so backing off this week as my shoulders got cranky. Hope is to do a powerlifting meet this summer as long as I can do injury free. I am still trying to gauge my physique (it is still early on). My weight is up about 3-4 lbs in 8 weeks, which I think is to be expected. That being said, I am starting to see signs I am leaning out a little. I don't have a whole lot of fat except for that darn belly fat (I am sitting at about 19-20% body fat).
> 
> As of now, and I know it is still early, I am so glad I went this route. There has been a noticeable difference in my quality of life (not only physically/mentally, but also carrying over into my marriage as well).


Did you notice a steady decline in strength prior? in the last couple years my strength has really lowered, I still train hard and dont look bad but i am smaller and struggle more with the weights.


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## EllisRedding

MovingForward said:


> Did you notice a steady decline in strength prior? in the last couple years my strength has really lowered, I still train hard and dont look bad but i am smaller and struggle more with the weights.


It is hard to say. I was getting injured more and having a harder time recovering after workouts, so that undoubtedly had impacted my strength. I would say though that about 2 years ago is when I was my strongest, and had a decline since.


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## EllisRedding

One thing I forgot to add. When my friend spoke to the Urologist about his test levels (315), the Urologist asked him what time the bloodwork was done. My friend mentioned that it was done around 1pm. Apparently your T levels fluctuate during the day, and first thing in the morning is typically when it is the highest. The urologist further dismissed my friends numbers since they were done at 1pm. A couple of things though. First, from reading around it appears that once men hit about 45yrs old the fluctuation will be minimal (my friend is 40, so he might be getting to the point where the fluctuations are minimal). Second, if the urologist believes that the tests weren't done properly, wouldn't the logic solution be to order another blood test and have my friend get done first thing in the morning? This just comes across as lazy / irresponsible. Regardless of any of the symptoms my friend was experiencing, the doctor had already made up his mind that these were non-issues...


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## EllisRedding

Phil Anders said:


> If you get sick of sore quads, get some 31g insulin pins and just do it sub Q (flank or hip/buttocks works well). Been doing it that way for years, no problems.


My doctor just posted some info on this as well:



> We've had a lot of questions from patients lately on the administering their testosterone injections IM (intra-muscular) vs Sub-Q (subcutaneous or beneath the skin into fat). While IM has been the most popular and widely known method (and totally fine if you prefer) recent studies have shown Sub-Q injections to be just as effective with the added benefit of an easier injection with less potential pain or discomfort.⁣
> ⁣
> 📈Multiple studies listed on the NCBI concluded during the randomized administration of testosterone replacement therapy to men of varying age ranges using either IM or Sub-Q injections that patients using the Sub-Q modal experience the same level of effectiveness from their testosterone treatment as the patients using the more traditional IM modal.⁣
> ⁣
> 📊The study concluded this through both a patient survey as well as testosterone blood serum levels obtained from each patient. Patients using the Sub-Q modal also unanimously agreed that Sub-Q injections were easy and essentially pain free when compared to IM injections. ⁣
> ⁣
> 👨*🔬In conclusion, studies have proven Sub-Q injections to be just as effective as IM injections with the added benefit of an easier to manage self administered injection method.⁣
> ⁣
> 📝Noteworthy - Sub-Q injections of testosterone may slow the rate of absorption (not total absorption) of your treatment so if switching to Sub-Q injections from IM expect a few week grace period for your levels to normalize and your body to adjust to this new method. You may experience a slight but temporary downgrade in the feeling you are used to from IM injections while your body normalizes. This should take care of itself within a few weeks. ⁣
> ⁣
> 👨*⚕Dr. Curt’s recommendation - Only administer up to .5cc at a time, not a full cc. Ex if you’re taking 1cc per week IM split that into 2 Subq injections per week at .5cc per.


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## EllisRedding

OK, quick rant (not related to me)... My W just had a visit at the dermatologist (acne which has gotten worse). She met with the resident doctor first, who suggested she take a testosterone blocking medication ... So without any sort of bloodwork to even validate if hormones are the issue (I would happily wager, based purely on my Ws sex drive, that high test is not an issue for her, and likely she is on the low side), this resident is just ready to hand out hormone blocking pills. Nothing to back it up, no consideration over what the side effects would be (look up low test in women, which if my W wasn't suffering from already, she would be...), nada .... fortunately he is just a resident, for now...


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## EllisRedding




----------



## Young at Heart

A few thoughts from someone who has been there and done that.



EllisRedding said:


> .......One thing, I can't remember if I mentioned, but as part of the therapy, my dr put me on a low dose of Deca. *The reason, one of the issues I had been dealing with is a lot of joint pain, especially in my knees and elbow*.....
> 
> .....A few weeks ago I noticed that even though frequent thoughts of sex were still there, I wasn't quite responding to like I had been. Also, when having sex, the longer the session, *:surprise:* I was reading around and speaking to a few other people, and it appears this is one of the potential side effects of deca (known as Deca [email protected], impact on the ability to get an erection as well as libido loss). This is typically seen in those who use much higher doses (typical bodybuilder type dosages), but even at a lower dose some people may be susceptible to. I am scheduled to have my follow up with my Doctor in 3 weeks, so assuming it doesn't worsen, I can wait until then to discuss. Obviously taking something that would negatively affect libido/sexual function is not optimal.....


1) 3,000 mg of Niacinimide a day has a huge 40+ year history of decreasing joint pain and even in recent double blind medical tests has been found to help reduce arthritis pain symptoms. It is a harmless vitamin B3 precursor. Niacin does not have the same effect. Some research suggests it promotes stem cell growth.

2) One of the dirty little secrets of HRT is the bodies response to artificial testosterone. Testicle produce some but too little T. HTR starts, body senses something has changed and wants to retain status quo. Body tells testicle to reduce T production. No change in HTR, but with reduce testicle T production T levels and libido drop. Getting a steady state higher T level requires lots of testing and adjustment of dose. 




EllisRedding said:


> Actually, I think you might have gotten my posts mixed up with someone else here as I didn't mention anything about Insurance. In fact, *my insurance isn't covering any of this* (I am using my HSA account to pay for, so I at least get a tax break for that, and so far the costs are not bad).....


Ultimately my experience as well, but it is much more complex than that. My co-pays were more than my paying out of pocket for compounding pharmacy T.



EllisRedding said:


> So far so good. I am at the end of my 8th week. My prescriptions go for 10 weeks, so I just had a call with the Dr a few days ago to go over everything, see if any adjustments were needed before I reorder. *The one thing I brought up was the libido drop* I had noticed over the last few weeks or so (along with some signs of fatigue). He thinks it is a combination of my estrogen spiking (offsetting some of the benefits of the test) and the deca. I take anastrozle (sp?) for the Estrogen, but a very low dose (based on my bloodwork, my E was on the low side to start, so the Dr wanted to keep the dosage low and adjust as needed). He had me increase the dosage and *cut the Deca dosage as well *(this is only short term anyhow, but has made a huge difference in getting rid of my knees/elbow pain). Test dosage will remain the same. .....


As the testicles shutdown, you will need higher T dosage. My best advice from years of experience is to only change one variable at a time. If you change more than one variable you have no real idea as to cause and effect.



EllisRedding said:


> Agreed, filling a need to that *general practitioners seem unwilling to fill.* There also still seems to be a general stigma around HRT/TRT (I would say even worse for women vs men), but hopefully this is something that will change over time. It is funny how many people are willing to put their body through hell, do all these fad/crash diets, look for miracle cures, pop xyz medication like its candy, this is all normal and accepted. Tell them about trying to balance their hormones out for a better quality of life, and they look at you like you have fives heads and must be one of the steroid abusing bodybuilders......


The reason that the GP's are unwilling is that they sort of work for the big medical insurance companies and there are bizarre monetary deals between approved pharmaceutical products and insurance companies.

Good luck.


----------



## Phil Anders

EllisRedding said:


> My doctor just posted some info on this as well:


Wow, I'm glad to see this method is gaining some mainstream legitimacy & endorsements, along with the 2x/week frequency. I'm not sure I could make myself go back to injecting IM, at least not via the quads like my first several months.


----------



## EllisRedding

So, I will try to post periodic updates, at a minimum to hopefully keep this thread active. For me, everything is done in 10 week cycles. As I get towards the end of the 10 weeks, I discuss with the doctor how I am doing, any issues, etc... and he will make any adjustments needed. Got through the first 10 weeks without much issue here. I am I think on my 13th week now. The only changes made was dropping the Deca (not needed now as my joints have significantly improved) and adding in a combo Sermorelin/Ipamorelin (lozenge). Everything else remains the same (Test/HCG).

At this point, things are going well, no regrets whatsoever going this route. Libido is going strong (in part b/c I messed up my dosage the week before and almost doubled it lol) but fortunately has leveled off to a more appropriate level. Energy/endurance as well have been solid. Much better workouts, strength is getting back to where it should be. General sense of well being continues to be positive. In terms of body composition, hard to say if there have been any changes. I do seem to be leaning out a little but my weight is holding steady. I really need to push the cardio though if I want to start seeing more significant changes, so that should be starting up next week (mostly in the form of HIIT, but I also like to go for long walks on the weekends if the weather cooperates). I have been just doing a shot 1x a week and don't really notice any sort of dropoff as I get towards the end of the week, so I will probably just stick with that protocol (HCG shots are done at the end of the week). 

Funny side note (well, funny now, wasn't too funny at the time lol). Now that my W and I have a normal sex life again, her last period was late by over a week. Now keep in mind, I am snipped, so I could arrive at two conclusions. 1) Do I need to start asking who the father is (seriously not a concern as my W would never cheat on me, but of course there will always be that illogical part of me that would naturally question) or 2) I am 5 years from being snipped, and apparently after 5 years your odds of the vasectomy failing more than doubles (from 1/1000 to 2-10/1000). It would only be fitting that now with things running on all cylinders, an against-the-odds pregnancy would come knocking! Anyway, crisis averted. I think my W's body was just off because we had been out west on vacation much of last week, but we are good now. I did tell her that if she was pregnant, we were having sex every single day until she delivered to hopefully cover me through the dry spell to follow! My W thought that maybe from all the hormones my body had magically fixed the vasectomy


----------



## EllisRedding

Phil Anders said:


> If you get sick of sore quads, get some 31g insulin pins and just do it sub Q (flank or hip/buttocks works well). Been doing it that way for years, no problems.


A quick update, I just switched over from IM to subQ injections (as per Phil above) for a couple of reasons:

- Up to now, I have been doing IM injections into my Quads (once a week). For the most part, it causes no issues, but every once in a while, it does bug my quad (my last IM shot, my quad was actually sore for a few days which actually hindered my workouts)

- I want to switch over to 2x a week injections (1/2 dose each injection). From everything I have read, that seems to be a much better option to keep your levels steady / more consistent. The idea of injecting myself IM 2x a week is not appealing at all. Also, subQ has a slower release, which further allows for stabilized levels.

I am using my 31g insulin pins into my abdomen. The only "inconvenience", it takes a while to get the oil into the pin (the IM needles it is fairly quick to get the oil in). 

A few issues that I ran into over the last 10 weeks. There was a period were I was extremely lethargic (i.e. falling asleep as my desk as work, etc...) In addition, I started developing a lot of joint issues I never had before. I believe this is all due to my E crashing, so we have reduced the Anastrozole dosage. Hopefully that along with the 2x week injections will get things right back on track. Trying to get E levels stabilized seems to be the biggest challenge for a lot of people since each person may have different levels of estrogen sensitivity. I am getting bloodwork done again on Wednesday, so we will see where all my levels stand.


----------



## Tasorundo

After having to use lovenox injections for a while, I loathe giving myself injections.

I have been happy with pellets, and while the procedure it more intensive than just a shot, it is only every 3 months or so.


----------



## EllisRedding

Tasorundo said:


> After having to use lovenox injections for a while, I loathe giving myself injections.
> 
> I have been happy with pellets, and while the procedure it more intensive than just a shot, it is only every 3 months or so.


I don't mind the injections going subq with the slin needles, but after doing 20 weeks straight of IM injections, I was definitely not looking forward to the shot each week.


----------



## EllisRedding

Oh yeah, life hack. When doing SubQ injections, you are supposed to pinch up your fat to inject into. For water based injections (like HCG) this is not an issue since the injection is quick. However, with oil based injections you really need to push on the syringe quite a bit to get everything out, and it gets difficult when your other hand is trying to keep your fat pinched. The workaround, a chip clip  We have a ton of those clips around the house, clamp on to some fat, problem solved


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## SongoftheSouth

Ellis glad things are working out. Back in the day I knew lots of guys he did deca cycles and they stated it was good for shoulder pain cause of it anti-inflammatory effects but I would never touch it because of the dreaded deca d__k Some guys had no issues others did. There was one guy I remember on a forum that it persisted long after he came off and he wound up seeing an endocronologist after a while. Dont know what happened to him but as I recall he ran long cycles and then bridged in between them so probably not surprising he had issues. Do you use anti-estrogens when on HRT? I imagine the levels of test are low per week but it cant hurt to use them I suppose.

Also heating the oil based test. a little bit helps with the injections. Used to put the vial in a warm water bath to decrease the viscosity a little which makes injections easier. Also used a hot compress at the injection site if the bump got inflamed. Ah the good old days!!


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## SongoftheSouth

Why are you guys injecting in the quads? Gluteus maximus is much less painful. Hard to position your body to do it, but much less painful.


----------



## EllisRedding

SongoftheSouth said:


> Why are you guys injecting in the quads? Gluteus maximus is much less painful. Hard to position your body to do it, but much less painful.


Honestly was just much easier for me to do versus glute. Doing SubQ now though, so can now avoid IM.



SongoftheSouth said:


> Ellis glad things are working out. Back in the day I knew lots of guys he did deca cycles and they stated it was good for shoulder pain cause of it anti-inflammatory effects but I would never touch it because of the dreaded deca d__k Some guys had no issues others did. There was one guy I remember on a forum that it persisted long after he came off and he wound up seeing an endocronologist after a while. Dont know what happened to him but as I recall he ran long cycles and then bridged in between them so probably not surprising he had issues. Do you use anti-estrogens when on HRT? I imagine the levels of test are low per week but it cant hurt to use them I suppose.
> 
> Also heating the oil based test. a little bit helps with the injections. Used to put the vial in a warm water bath to decrease the viscosity a little which makes injections easier. Also used a hot compress at the injection site if the bump got inflamed. Ah the good old days!!


Ah man, thanks, I completely forgot about heating up the vial. Will need to give that a shot.

When I ran deca when I started HRT, I didn't run into deca ****. It helped that I was running at a low/therapeutic dose. I was definitely paranoid of that, but the people who I spoke to who did have issues were running it much higher (400+).

Yes, I use anastrozole. Actually, I think the doctor prescribed me too high of a dosage and my E was crashing (which is why I suddenly started developing joint issues and bouts of lethargy). Should have a clearer picture after my next round of bloodwork, but from searching around other forums, given how low the test dosage is, I should be able to keep the Anti E at a minimal dosage (before I started TRT my E levels were normal but closer to the low side as is).


----------



## red oak

I thought I posted this question once but maybe I didn't. 

I've seen no mention of dietary concerns and excercise as remedies suggested by doctors. 

Do doctors no longer check for dietary deficiencies and lifestyle style first?

What is their determination of one getting trt other than low testosterone?


----------



## EllisRedding

red oak said:


> I thought I posted this question once but maybe I didn't.
> 
> I've seen no mention of dietary concerns and excercise as remedies suggested by doctors.
> 
> Do doctors no longer check for dietary deficiencies and lifestyle style first?
> 
> *What is their determination of one getting trt other than low testosterone?*


As far as diet and lifestyle, those are things that were discussed with my doctor first

In terms of determination, it is usually a combination of bloodwork AND symptoms. My doctor mentioned he has had patients who had low T but did not exhibit may of the typical symptoms, so in cases like that there isn't an immediate need to start any treatment (more wait and see approach). It is more for those who not only have low T, but also experience a variety of symptoms that have lessened quality of life.


----------



## red oak

EllisRedding said:


> *As far as diet and lifestyle, those are things that were discussed with my doctor first*
> 
> In terms of determination, it is usually a combination of bloodwork AND symptoms. My doctor mentioned he has had patients who had low T but did not exhibit may of the typical symptoms, so in cases like that there isn't an immediate need to start any treatment (more wait and see approach). It is more for those who not only have low T, but also experience a variety of symptoms that have lessened quality of life.


May I ask what that discussion entailed and advice given?


----------



## Talk2Me

I have a TON of experience with this. I've been on TRT now for 7+ years. Overall, it's been a game changer for me. 

The good:

I feel way better than I did before. I recover faster from my workouts, I'm stronger, have a higher libido, am more active, building muscle, more definition in my muscles, I'm more focused, I'm more motivated, and mentally I just feel better.

The bad:

It's a ROYAL PAIN THE BUTTOX.... There are times when you forget to take your E2 blocker and your Estrogen spikes and you get all emotional. I'll cry at a stupid cartoon my son is watching. haha Having to inject twice per week gets very old. (most dr. will tell you to inject once per week but twice is better as you're taking less per injection so your E2 is less likely to spike and you don't start crashing by day 7) If you go thru your primary it's fairly inexpensive BUT, most primary doctors know little to nothing about it. The won't prescribe you an E2 blocker nor with they give you HCG. (HCG allows your testes to function properly) If you go to a clinic they will prescribe you most likely 200mg Test per week. This is high for TRT and they usually charge around $550 for a 10 week supply of Test, Anastrozole (E2 blocker) and HCG. This is very expensive considering a vial of test costs around $45 from the pharmacy. Also, these places don't take insurance. The other issue is if you take too much of the Anastrozole you will crash your E2. I did this a few months in because they prescribed me too much. I was having major joint pain and just lethargic all the time. Bloodwork confirmed this and my dose was lowered and no more issues. You will also need to get blood work every 6 or 12 months to make sure everything is in range. Without the bloodwork they cannot refill your prescription. Many times they will spring this on you at any given time. So, if you decide to blast (take more than prescribe) your levels will be way too high and you won't be able to get a refill. 

Let me know what specific questions you have. I've been in the bodybuilding world for a long time and know a lot about this subject.


----------



## EllisRedding

red oak said:


> May I ask what that discussion entailed and advice given?


Discussed current stats (age, weight, height), general body composition, lifestyle (what activities, etc...) and what diet currently looks like.

Based on everything for me (I am very active, in relatively good shape, moderate diet, etc...) there wasn't really much to change (aside from cutting back on the late night snacks and doing more cardio, both of which I have been doing).

I believe that weight (excessive) can have quite a negative impact on your hormones, so I have seen in cases like this doctors recommend you make lifestyle changes first before looking closer at therapy.


----------



## EllisRedding

Talk2Me said:


> I have a TON of experience with this. I've been on TRT now for 7+ years. Overall, it's been a game changer for me.
> 
> The good:
> 
> I feel way better than I did before. I recover faster from my workouts, I'm stronger, have a higher libido, am more active, building muscle, more definition in my muscles, I'm more focused, I'm more motivated, and mentally I just feel better.
> 
> The bad:
> 
> It's a ROYAL PAIN THE BUTTOX.... There are times when you forget to take your E2 blocker and your Estrogen spikes and you get all emotional. I'll cry at a stupid cartoon my son is watching. haha Having to inject twice per week gets very old. (most dr. will tell you to inject once per week but twice is better as you're taking less per injection so your E2 is less likely to spike and you don't start crashing by day 7) If you go thru your primary it's fairly inexpensive BUT, most primary doctors know little to nothing about it. The won't prescribe you an E2 blocker nor with they give you HCG. (HCG allows your testes to function properly) If you go to a clinic they will prescribe you most likely 200mg Test per week. This is high for TRT and they usually charge around $550 for a 10 week supply of Test, Anastrozole (E2 blocker) and HCG. This is very expensive considering a vial of test costs around $45 from the pharmacy. Also, these places don't take insurance. The other issue is if you take too much of the Anastrozole you will crash your E2. I did this a few months in because they prescribed me too much. I was having major joint pain and just lethargic all the time. Bloodwork confirmed this and my dose was lowered and no more issues. You will also need to get blood work every 6 or 12 months to make sure everything is in range. Without the bloodwork they cannot refill your prescription. Many times they will spring this on you at any given time. So, if you decide to blast (take more than prescribe) your levels will be way too high and you won't be able to get a refill.
> 
> Let me know what specific questions you have. I've been in the bodybuilding world for a long time and know a lot about this subject.


Thanks for the info. The joint pain and lethargy I have been dealing with I believe is due to crashing E2 (just got bloodwork done this morning which should hopefully confirm). My guess, when I first started the Dr had me on a low dose of Deca as well to alleviate my joint issues (which it did right away). Once I stopped I kept my Anastrozole at the same dosage when it should have been decreased. I am actually looking to do a short run of BPC157 to see if it can heal up an elbow issue that I can't shake.

As far as the bloodwork, this isn't something that was mandated I needed to do at certain times. In my mind, it is something I want to do every 6 months so I can monitor everything. For now, I speak to the doctor before each 10 week cycle is up, go over everything, and then the next order is placed.

One that this was odd, I just got my next round of meds delivered. It was only a 5 week supply instead of 10. There was a note from the pharmacy to call before the 5 weeks were up and they would send the next 5 weeks (something about there was a limit placed on what could be shipped at once).


----------



## Talk2Me

EllisRedding said:


> Thanks for the info. The joint pain and lethargy I have been dealing with I believe is due to crashing E2 (just got bloodwork done this morning which should hopefully confirm). My guess, when I first started the Dr had me on a low dose of Deca as well to alleviate my joint issues (which it did right away). Once I stopped I kept my Anastrozole at the same dosage when it should have been decreased. I am actually looking to do a short run of BPC157 to see if it can heal up an elbow issue that I can't shake.
> 
> As far as the bloodwork, this isn't something that was mandated I needed to do at certain times. In my mind, it is something I want to do every 6 months so I can monitor everything. For now, I speak to the doctor before each 10 week cycle is up, go over everything, and then the next order is placed.
> 
> One that this was odd, I just got my next round of meds delivered. It was only a 5 week supply instead of 10. There was a note from the pharmacy to call before the 5 weeks were up and they would send the next 5 weeks (something about there was a limit placed on what could be shipped at once).


How long were you running the Deca for joint pain and why did you stop? Also, at what dosage were you running Deca. I have a shoulder injury and run 100mg. Deca per week and it hasn't bothered me in forever. Deca is great as it more or less lubricates your joints. How much Test are you taking weekly and how much Anastrozole? What are your stats? Age/Weight/Bodyfat %/Cycle experience if any/workout activity?

If you crashed your E2 it can be painful. The less Anastrozole you can take obviously the better. New studies are showing it can cause long term issues and hairloss etc. One of the benefits to splitting the dosage to biweekly is I can take less Anastrozole with the goal of not taking it at all. Talking to someone else he takes 120mg Test C per week split Every other day and he doesn't need an E2 blocker.


----------



## EllisRedding

Talk2Me said:


> How long were you running the Deca for joint pain and why did you stop? Also, at what dosage were you running Deca. I have a shoulder injury and run 100mg. Deca per week and it hasn't bothered me in forever. Deca is great as it more or less lubricates your joints. How much Test are you taking weekly and how much Anastrozole? What are your stats? Age/Weight/Bodyfat %/Cycle experience if any/workout activity?
> 
> If you crashed your E2 it can be painful. The less Anastrozole you can take obviously the better. New studies are showing it can cause long term issues and hairloss etc. One of the benefits to splitting the dosage to biweekly is I can take less Anastrozole with the goal of not taking it at all. Talking to someone else he takes 120mg Test C per week split Every other day and he doesn't need an E2 blocker.


First 10 weeks I was doing 200mg Test / 200mg Deca / 2mg Anast / HCG (2x a week). Felt great, knee pain went away, etc... After the 10 weeks we decided to remove the Deca to see how my joints responded (plus, I was a little hesitant on being on longer than I needed to be 'cause of the dreaded deca ****). So protocol stayed the same, but 2mg Anast was way too much (which I believe caused the Lethargy and joint issues I started experiencing in elbows and shoulders). In the past week I have dropped down to 1mg Anast and split my test shot into 2x a week and am starting to feel better. 

As far as other stats (what, my avatar isn't enough for you to tell???):

Age: 39
6'1" 220lb (approx 19% BF)
Been lifting for over 20 years, but the last 5+ have been more focused on powerlifting (only did 1 meet, haven't been able to stay healthy enough the last few years to do any others). Starting to move away from this a little (get more hypertrophy/bodybuilding movements in, but still keep big 3 in there). I had been ignoring cardio for way too long. For the last two months I now do HIIT sprints (20 minutes / 3x a week), and try to walk 10-20 minutes a day. No cycle experience beyond that crazy creatine lol.


----------



## Talk2Me

EllisRedding said:


> First 10 weeks I was doing 200mg Test / 200mg Deca / 2mg Anast / HCG (2x a week). Felt great, knee pain went away, etc... After the 10 weeks we decided to remove the Deca to see how my joints responded (plus, I was a little hesitant on being on longer than I needed to be 'cause of the dreaded deca ****). So protocol stayed the same, but 2mg Anast was way too much (which I believe caused the Lethargy and joint issues I started experiencing in elbows and shoulders). In the past week I have dropped down to 1mg Anast and split my test shot into 2x a week and am starting to feel better.
> 
> As far as other stats (what, my avatar isn't enough for you to tell???):
> 
> Age: 39
> 6'1" 220lb (approx 19% BF)
> Been lifting for over 20 years, but the last 5+ have been more focused on powerlifting (only did 1 meet, haven't been able to stay healthy enough the last few years to do any others). Starting to move away from this a little (get more hypertrophy/bodybuilding movements in, but still keep big 3 in there). I had been ignoring cardio for way too long. For the last two months I now do HIIT sprints (20 minutes / 3x a week), and try to walk 10-20 minutes a day. No cycle experience beyond that crazy creatine lol.


You got a doctor to prescribe you 400mg a week? That's a Cycle not TRT. If you want to be on TRT you should be at around 100-120mg per week. The goal is to get you within the high normal range and keep everything else in check without having a lot of sides. If you're taking 100mg/week split Sunday night and Thursday morning then most likely you won't need Anastrozole which is a good thing. Less is more.


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## EllisRedding

Talk2Me said:


> You got a doctor to prescribe you 400mg a week? That's a Cycle not TRT. If you want to be on TRT you should be at around 100-120mg per week. The goal is to get you within the high normal range and keep everything else in check without having a lot of sides. If you're taking 100mg/week split Sunday night and Thursday morning then most likely you won't need Anastrozole which is a good thing. Less is more.


Test has only ever been 200mgs a week (I was only doing a shot 1x a week at the time). I only recently switched to 2x a week (100mg Fri / 100mg Mon). The deca was meant to be nothing more than temporary to see if it relieved my knee issues.


----------



## Talk2Me

EllisRedding said:


> Test has only ever been 200mgs a week (I was only doing a shot 1x a week at the time). I only recently switched to 2x a week (100mg Fri / 100mg Mon). The deca was meant to be nothing more than temporary to see if it relieved my knee issues.


200mg of Test + 200mg Deca = 400mg no matter how you slice it. Deca at 100mg/week after 4 weeks or so will start relieving joint pain if it's going to work for you. Even at 200mg/week for Test that is HIGH for TRT. I'm guessing you're going to a clinic? Most clinics prescribe these levels which is basically a mild cycle. I personally feel best at around 160mg/week. When I blast and run more I do gain size etc. but I never feel as good as I do with lower amounts.


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## SongoftheSouth

Talk2Me said:


> 200mg of Test + 200mg Deca = 400mg no matter how you slice it. Deca at 100mg/week after 4 weeks or so will start relieving joint pain if it's going to work for you. Even at 200mg/week for Test that is HIGH for TRT. I'm guessing you're going to a clinic? Most clinics prescribe these levels which is basically a mild cycle. I personally feel best at around 160mg/week. When I blast and run more I do gain size etc. but I never feel as good as I do with lower amounts.


Talk2Me What is the dosage of that androgel, I thought is was a cream that absorbed through skin and provided a boost to test at pretty low levels so no injections needed? I would also consider 200 mg of test + 200 mg of deca a week a cycle. Even 200 mg a week test is more than I thought they prescribed for HRT.


----------



## Talk2Me

SongoftheSouth said:


> Talk2Me What is the dosage of that androgel, I thought is was a cream that absorbed through skin and provided a boost to test at pretty low levels so no injections needed? I would also consider 200 mg of test + 200 mg of deca a week a cycle. Even 200 mg a week test is more than I thought they prescribed for HRT.


I've never used Androgel and know many who have without the best of results. Injecting is a pain for certain and MANY people can't do it to themselves. I nearly passed out the first time I did it. haha Nebido will be a game changer. Basically 1 injection every 10-12 weeks. More consistent bloodwork numbers but right now the max a dr. can prescribe legally is too low. I know others that do it on their own and absolutely love it.


----------



## SongoftheSouth

Talk2Me said:


> I've never used Androgel and know many who have without the best of results. Injecting is a pain for certain and MANY people can't do it to themselves. I nearly passed out the first time I did it. haha Nebido will be a game changer. Basically 1 injection every 10-12 weeks. More consistent bloodwork numbers but right now the max a dr. can prescribe legally is too low. I know others that do it on their own and absolutely love it.


Are you saying that there is a new test ester that releases gradually over 10-12 weeks requiring 1 injection? Never heard of that. In the good old days I might run 250 mg of sustanon (4 different test. esters that released at different half-lives) along with about 25-30 mg of dianabol for 2 weeks and then up the test to 500 mg per week over the next 6 weeks while ditching the dbol and then taper down to 250 mg sustanon for 2 weeks. All the while running clomid or nolvadex for anti-E. This was considered a normal run back then.


----------



## Talk2Me

SongoftheSouth said:


> Are you saying that there is a new test ester that releases gradually over 10-12 weeks requiring 1 injection? Never heard of that. In the good old days I might run 250 mg of sustanon (4 different test. esters that released at different half-lives) along with about 25-30 mg of dianabol for 2 weeks and then up the test to 500 mg per week over the next 6 weeks while ditching the dbol and then taper down to 250 mg sustanon for 2 weeks. All the while running clomid or nolvadex for anti-E. This was considered a normal run back then.


A normal cycle now has fewer compounds. Typically for a newbie Test E or C only at 500mg/week and maybe front load with D-Bol. An advanced cutting cycle would include Test Prop, Tren Ace, Maserone, and Winny. Obviously, with an AI and HCG. One of the benefits of TRT is that you can easily blast and cruise. I typically do a winter mini-bulk and a summer cut. I'm 5'8" and 210 lbs at about 12% bf so I'm a good solid size. I could do a heavy cycle and get up to 220 but that's too big for my frame. I've done it before but it's not worth it.

Anyways, yes, Nebido is an ultra long ester of about 90 days. I'm really starting to look into it as it would stabilize things and make life so much easier. Every doctor I've talked about it with all said that the current FDA dosage is too low for it to compete with Test C or E.


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## EllisRedding

Talk2Me said:


> 200mg of Test + 200mg Deca = 400mg no matter how you slice it. Deca at 100mg/week after 4 weeks or so will start relieving joint pain if it's going to work for you. Even at 200mg/week for Test that is HIGH for TRT. I'm guessing you're going to a clinic? Most clinics prescribe these levels which is basically a mild cycle. I personally feel best at around 160mg/week. When I blast and run more I do gain size etc. but I never feel as good as I do with lower amounts.


All I know, I went from pain in my knees just going up/down the stairs to being able to sprints up/down stairs. I was prescribed 200mg Deca for the first 10 weeks but after week 4 I tapered down to 100mg. Even after I was done my knees have still felt much better. Should get my bloodwork back in t he next few days to see where everything is at. Ideally I would like to either drop the Anastrozole or cut down to .5mg per week as I believe that is what has killed my elbow/shoulders.


----------



## Talk2Me

EllisRedding said:


> All I know, I went from pain in my knees just going up/down the stairs to being able to sprints up/down stairs. I was prescribed 200mg Deca for the first 10 weeks but after week 4 I tapered down to 100mg. Even after I was done my knees have still felt much better. Should get my bloodwork back in t he next few days to see where everything is at. Ideally I would like to either drop the Anastrozole or cut down to .5mg per week as I believe that is what has killed my elbow/shoulders.


Are you staying on the Deca at 100mg/week? That's what I do but I only add it to my Sunday shot not my Thursday one. I've been doing it for months now and feel great. My shoulder has bothered me for years and it feels much better. I'm up to 370 lb incline presses which I'm really happy about. Any more than that and it really starts bothering me. Really no need to go much heavier though.


----------



## EllisRedding

Talk2Me said:


> Are you staying on the Deca at 100mg/week? That's what I do but I only add it to my Sunday shot not my Thursday one. I've been doing it for months now and feel great. My shoulder has bothered me for years and it feels much better. I'm up to 370 lb incline presses which I'm really happy about. Any more than that and it really starts bothering me. Really no need to go much heavier though.


I was on Deca the first 10 weeks. These past 10 weeks I have not been on. However, given the mess that my joints are now, I am going to ask the doctor to prescribe another round of 100mg/week. Just waiting for my bloodwork to come back and then I will have a call with him. I got spooked by all those talking about deca ****, but didn't realize that many who were talking about it were taking in excess of 400mg/week :surprise:

I was talking to him about my elbow last week (which is the biggest mess and has me cutting back on upper body for now) and one other option he mentioned was using a peptide like BPC157 or TB500 (I think I got those names right) as with those I could target specifically my elbow (better for injury recovery).


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## Talk2Me

EllisRedding said:


> I was on Deca the first 10 weeks. These past 10 weeks I have not been on. However, given the mess that my joints are now, I am going to ask the doctor to prescribe another round of 100mg/week. Just waiting for my bloodwork to come back and then I will have a call with him. I got spooked by all those talking about deca ****, but didn't realize that many who were talking about it were taking in excess of 400mg/week :surprise:
> 
> I was talking to him about my elbow last week (which is the biggest mess and has me cutting back on upper body for now) and one other option he mentioned was using a peptide like BPC157 or TB500 (I think I got those names right) as with those I could target specifically my elbow (better for injury recovery).


Deca, like Tren is a 19 Nor and therefor can cause "Deca-Dck" for sure. It is typically because your estrogen gets high and then raises Prolactin. If Prolactin rises or E2 is out of wack then boom E.D. issues. Been there done that. At 100mg/week it shouldn't cause an issue so long as everything is in check. Hopefully he pulled a full blood panel to see everything going on. The problem with him switching things up so frequently though is that your body and hormones are all over the place. The idea with TRT is to get things to level out and be consistent. This isn't the case here though at all. That makes me nervous.

I've done TB500 in the past for Tendonitis in my elbow. It def. worked and I actually did a log on it when I did it. It wasn't a miracle like HGH but it def. helped. You won't feel anything for at least 4 weeks but usually around that point things start improving. Look into it and do some research though bc there are studies linking it to cancer.


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## EllisRedding

Talk2Me said:


> Deca, like Tren is a 19 Nor and therefor can cause "Deca-Dck" for sure. It is typically because your estrogen gets high and then raises Prolactin. If Prolactin rises or E2 is out of wack then boom E.D. issues. Been there done that. At 100mg/week it shouldn't cause an issue so long as everything is in check. Hopefully he pulled a full blood panel to see everything going on. The problem with him switching things up so frequently though is that your body and hormones are all over the place. The idea with TRT is to get things to level out and be consistent. This isn't the case here though at all. That makes me nervous.
> 
> I've done TB500 in the past for Tendonitis in my elbow. It def. worked and I actually did a log on it when I did it. It wasn't a miracle like HGH but it def. helped. You won't feel anything for at least 4 weeks but usually around that point things start improving. Look into it and do some research though bc there are studies linking it to cancer.


Well, so far up to this point the only thing that has been switched up was the removal of Deca after the first ten weeks. The only other thing that could throw a wrinkle in it is I just switched to 2x a week with the Test (that was by my own decision, so only one week worth of shots before the bloodwork). Other than that, hopefully everything else has somewhat stabilized. I was going to drop the Anastrozole dosage but since it was right before the bloodwork I kept as is for the purpose of consistency. Full blood panelwas done, and I think I should have the result by EOD tomorrow.

I was actually watching a video with Dr. George Touliatos where he suggested avoid any sort of AI if possible when using a therapeutic dosage of deca (100mg) as the AI may offset the benefits. 

As far as TB500, one item I read regarding the issue of cancer:



> Doctors have noticed cancer patients have a higher amount of Thymosin in the affected tissues than other people. So in the early stages of research, doctors assumed that this meant Thymosin may cause cancer. After more research was conducted, it was discovered that the main action of Thymosin Beta 4 was to produce new white blood cells – so its presence in the body in the areas affected by cancer was likely not a cause of the cancer, but instead, a matter of “showing up” in the body where cancer lived to help the body mount an immune system response.


That being said, I am leaning to BPC157 if i do try anything. Going to keep focusing on rehab for now with my elbow.


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## EllisRedding

Quick update here. I am having doing more reading / research on HRT and come across some interesting stuff. There is a segment that views HRT as more of an optimization therapy. Been reading up on Ben Greenfield, Dr Russ Scala, Jay Campbell, etc... Some things worth noting:

- A majority of health issues can be related to Hormonal, Insulin resistance, and thyroid. Unfortunately, most doctors (and in part thanks to Big Pharma) do not focus on this, and instead rely on overmedication as a bandaid instead of trying to address the underlying problem. 

- Something like over 50% of the population is on some sort of Anti depressant medication. Antidepressants damage the pre-frontal cortex of the brain and damage multiple metabolic systems of the body; they increase insulin, increase fat storage and cause imbalances in the intestinal tract. Many of the symptoms leading to ADs are actually related to the point above, and are not being treated properly

- The use of AIs (aromatase inhibitors) should be avoided at all costs (unless there is a substantial issue). Estrogen plays a very critical role, trying to minimize will ultimately lead to a host of issues as Estrogen is cardio protective. I can say that the few negative side effects I have had while on HRT has been joint issues (including bad elbow tendinitis) and fatigue. These are symptoms typically associated with Low estrogen. I have stopped taking an AI altogether and slowly the issues are going away. The concern these doctors have, right now in HRT world it seems standard for many doctors to just throw their patients on AIs. Down the road when patients start experiencing more severe issues (joint and heart related), critics are going to point to TRT being the culprit when in fact it is due to improperly minimizing Estrogen.

- There was research done on Triathletes. You would expect them to be among some of the healthiest people out there. However, it was discovered that a decent amount were suffering from heart issues (calcification build up, blocked arteries, etc..). Due to the stresses placed on their bodies, it was not uncommon for the athletes to have low T, low E, and high cortisol, all of which is a prescription for serious heart issues.

- Statins are one of the worst things that could have been created


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## SongoftheSouth

Thats great information Ellis. Back in the good old days all we used were estrogen blockers like clomid. Arimadex and other AIs came on the scene after I stopped cycles but it sounded really good. If you could stop aromatization by blocking the enzyme responsible for creating estradiol then no gyno right? Maybe the answer is really SERMs that block negative action on the hypothallus and pituitary gland. I have not given this much thought lately but its interesting and I remember us using high doses of clomid after you came off to release leutanizing hormone and increase natural test production. Seemed to work


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## EllisRedding

SongoftheSouth said:


> Thats great information Ellis. Back in the good old days all we used were estrogen blockers like clomid. Arimadex and other AIs came on the scene after I stopped cycles but it sounded really good. If you could stop aromatization by blocking the enzyme responsible for creating estradiol then no gyno right? Maybe the answer is really SERMs that block negative action on the hypothallus and pituitary gland. I have not given this much thought lately but its interesting and I remember us using high doses of clomid after you came off to release leutanizing hormone and increase natural test production. Seemed to work


I think the issue from what the doctors were saying is two fold:

1) For whatever reason, doctors were using bodybuilders as examples when it came to AIs and Estrogen management. The problem is that bodybuilders were using large amounts of steroids, so it is really not applicable when you are talking about someone taking therapeutic doses
2) AIs to some extent can raise T, so for whatever reason that was the focus.

There is actually a ton of research highlighting the dangers of AIs and maintaining low E levels in men. Here is a good video


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## Talk2Me

E2 plays a major role in our health. This is one of the reasons women are less likely to suffer from heart disease in men. It's also a reason their hair etc is healthier than ours etc. Lots of research on AI's has been becoming available and it's pretty scary stuff. Some of my bodybuilder friends that are on TRT are now starting to do micro-doses each week. If they are taking 140mg. per week they are splitting it up in small increments of 20mg per day. Kind of a royal pain in the butt but keeps serum levels as consistent as possible without spiking E2. I've been taking my TRT dosage twice per week but planning on switching to Every Other Day to keep things more in check. I have to take an AI when I blast bc I have a lot of conversion issues but when I blast I keep compounds relatively low.


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## EllisRedding

Talk2Me said:


> E2 plays a major role in our health. This is one of the reasons women are less likely to suffer from heart disease in men. It's also a reason their hair etc is healthier than ours etc. Lots of research on AI's has been becoming available and it's pretty scary stuff. Some of my bodybuilder friends that are on TRT are now starting to do micro-doses each week. If they are taking 140mg. per week they are splitting it up in small increments of 20mg per day. Kind of a royal pain in the butt but keeps serum levels as consistent as possible without spiking E2. I've been taking my TRT dosage twice per week but planning on switching to Every Other Day to keep things more in check. I have to take an AI when I blast bc I have a lot of conversion issues but when I blast I keep compounds relatively low.


I believe also that is the reason why the heart disease rate spikes significantly for women post menopause. Right now I am doing shots 2x a week subq (Friday and Monday). I was looking at spreading it out even more (similar to you). I am planning on switching doctors (for a variety of reasons I am not happy with my current one), and one of the doctors I am researching actually promotes doing micro dosing for TRT.


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## Tasorundo

I am still using the pellets and am happy with the results I experience with them. I have another round at the end of the month.

My wife has been using a test/progesterone cream for a while, but she was told yesterday that they are not getting the results they would like with it. She is supposed to start injections of some kind when she gets back from her trip.


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## EllisRedding

I have seen some also suggest that using a topical cream rubbed into the scrotum is an optimal way to get your TRT dose and absorbed properly (added benefit regarding erections).

Also, here is an interesting Round table video if you have some time to kill (I just had playing in the background while I worked). Skip to the 42 minute mark if you want a good laugh


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## EllisRedding

OK, another quick update here. I have actually spent a lot of time reading up on Optimization, health issues, etc... and it is very interesting when you look at how ass backwards Sick Care is. It isn't about taking preventative steps when it comes to health, but instead nothing more than treating symptoms (basically just end up prolonging someones life in poor health, which of course is a cash cow for Big Pharma). Anyways, as for me, I have made a few changes:

- Dropped the AI completely. Simply put, there is zero reason why anyone on TRT should be placed on an AI unless there is some extenuating circumstance. If you are consulting a doctor about TRT and they want to put you on an AI, find another doctor. Otherwise, you are playing with both your short and long term health.

- I was originally doing injections IM 1x a week. I am now doing every day subq (micro dosing). This is the optimal way as it best matches your body's normal rhythm, keeps any spikes up/down to a bare minimum. I might be switching to a transdermal cream placed on the scrotum in the next month or so.

- Body composition changes have come along nicely, and really in the past month or so the pounds are starting to shed quick from my midsection (a big part due to altering my diet and exercise routine, so TRT is by no means a magic pill). Sex drive has been strong since switching the ED injections. These past five days I must've worn my W out b/c she said she may need to go on HRT as well just to keep up with me lol. All the more reason why I would not recommend anyone touch HRT if you have an unwilling partner (or you are willing to move on).

- I will be switching doctors in the next month or so. My Wife is going to meet with the doctor as well. For the first visit, it actually needs to be done in person, so we will be flying over to their office for this (turn it into a little mini vacation). After that, everything can be done via telemedicine.


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## EllisRedding

OK, another quick update here:

Next week my Wife and I are flying out to meet with a new doctor. I will be switching from the current clinic I have been going to and this will be my Ws first time looking at the health & wellness / preventive medicine arena. I am kinda winging my protocol currently since the clinic I am using was doing more harm than good, so it will be nice to actually be under the guidance of a legit doctor. It probably took me a good 2 months after I stopped taking the AIs where I started feeling normal again. I am still dealing with some joint pain from that garbage.

A few months ago I added Tesamorelin to my daily protocol (peptide). This stuff is great, pretty much melted the fat off my stomach and love handles. I dropped about 15lbs + since I added in this protocol (also noting that I made changes to my diet and also get 10k-15k+ steps in a day on top of weightlifting). It really is fascinating the potential there is with peptides (not just physical performance but also healing/repair, disease management, etc...). 

I had started a thread on this topic, but gave PT141 a shot (a libido boosting peptide that works for both men and women). Very interesting (if not inconsistent) results. Not something I would use often, but could see having some fun with periodically. It was fun watching my wife suddenly get horny once the peptide kicked in lol.


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## Lake life

I read this whole thread. Good info. Thanks to all who have shared. I’ve been on TRT for 3 years now myself and have had ups and downs. 
I’m on the 4th Dr. started with injections every 2 weeks, went to pellets and happy now injecting myself subq every 5 days. 
I use AI only when needed ( I cut the amridex pills into tiny 1/8 slices. 
Anyone have any updates?


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