# Tearing down walls



## Tigerman

[Apologies for such a long-winded post, especially with it being my first.]

I've been frustrated with my sex life with my wife for years now and things have become really awful over the last year. After spending a lot of time the last few weeks reading over posts on this forum, I've realized that while my wife definitely has not held up her end of things (and has age, grief, stress, and body image issues that are also nerfing her libido), I'm not the innocent victim of a cold sexless shrew that I've long convinced myself I am. I've done a ton of stupid things that have made the situation far worse than it should be and have made it much harder to turn things around. My actions and attitudes have taken a lot of things that should have been in-the-moment frustrations or temporary rough patches, and turned them into full-scale disasters.

The main issue is that I haven't given her any room to breathe when it comes to the problems in our sex life (FWIW, everything else between us is good-to-great and we've largely gotten past the point where the problems with sex have affected how we see other things between us). For example, I've whined and pleaded to try to get more sex, even in circumstances where it was obvious that my wife had perfectly legitimate reasons to not be interested in feeling sexual. I've made her feel like sex is something she has to do for me, rather than something we are free to enjoy together. I've made her feel like she doesn't measure up to the horniness and adventurousness of women I was with before. I've made it so that, automatically, her first thought in the morning is that, yet again, she's guilty of denying her husband sex the night before and, yet again, she'll be guilty of denying her husband sex that day, too. I've made her feel like she can't show me any affection or respond positively to my displays of affection, out of fear that it will inevitably lead to a situation in which she's reminded about all the tension between us about sex. I've made her feel crowded and harassed, rather than understood and respected. She sees everything I do as ultimately directed at getting into her pants and thus she feels guilty about every nice thing I do for her, even when it should be obvious that I've acted for other reasons. And, while she clearly finds me attractive and has sexual feelings for me (and she definitely knows and appreciates that I'm very attracted to her), she has every reason to not feel motivated to initiate anything with me or to develop a desire to be physically close to me, because all I've been doing is pursuing her and putting her on the defensive about sex. If you add to that all the other stuff that's dragging down her libido, it's obvious that this is just a mess.

Basically, between what I've learned from both reading posts on this forum and a lot of gut-wrenching, all-over-the-map talks with my wife, I know I have to turn the temperature down. A lot. Not to send a "get with the program" message, but rather to create space to re-connect in some basic ways that allow us to build on all the positive things in the relationship, without the tension about sex getting in the way. My wife has developed some reflexive responses to my behavior that have to be unlearned, if we're to ever get back to having a satisfying sex life. My basic idea is to take the thermostat and "soft 180" concepts and apply them, as appropriate, to my situation. Until my wife works through the other stuff that's affecting her sex drive, things won't be at the level I'd like them to be at. But if this tension and resentment just keeps sitting there, she won't ever be able to do that and things will not only not be where I want them to be, they won't even get to some minimally acceptable level that we can get by with until (hopefully) her libido picks up again.

I've been trying this for about a month now. I did great the first week and there were very noticeable improvements right away: more affection towards me, more fun times just sitting around together after the kids went to bed, some quality time spent doing things away from each other without any guilt or resentment on either side, and just a generally better feeling about things. Then we hit a rough patch for about two weeks where I was still trying, but my horniness kept getting in the way. I was horny and feeling a lot more of a connection with my wife because of how things went the first week (which she was feeling, too), which made it difficult for me to keep the temperature under control, despite my wife telling me that she wasn't yet past the old tensions. Arguments flared up and, while things weren't as bad as they were before, it was clearly a setback in the effort to reset things. I felt like I had totally wasted that first week's gains and things seemed hopeless.

I finally managed to get my mind in a place where I could recognize that things were getting better from turning down the temperature, but that there was still a ways to go before my wife was going to be less affected by the mindset she had gotten into with how things have been. She's just not the kind of person who can decide to totally change those things over night. So, I've resolved to keep my attention focused on the improvements that take place and to not get distracted by thoughts of what isn't yet happening. And the last week has been great again. And, of course, now that we're connecting so much better, the same overwhelming desire to be physically intimate with her is flaring up. I'm handling it much better this time, but it's still a struggle. And since there's no known schedule for this, that makes it even more difficult to deal with. That sort of unknown - whether things will eventually turn around and, if so, when - is something I do not deal well with. I like known deadlines, orderly plans (however difficult or complicated they might be), and being able to analyze or barrel my way through any unexpected problems that come up. This isn't like that. At all.

The reason I'm posting is that I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions about how to deal with a situation in which a lot of old walls have to be torn down. Especially when it's one person who has the walls up and the other person who is trying to change his/her behavior to allow those walls to come down. I don't want to move things along too fast - I've already seen what damage that can do - but I also don't want to move things along too slowly or be too passive. I realize a lot of this depends on how well I read my wife's cues; unfortunately, my perception of those kinds of things has never been good. But I'm wondering if those with experience with this sort of thing - on either side of it - have any advice to offer that would help make it more likely that this succeeds.


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## Jeff/BC

DUDE! 

I can't believe that you're doubting your abilities. You are doing AWESOMELY! SERIOUSLY. I'd give that post about 30 likes if they'd let me.

I think you have completely understood the problem... or at least the first one or two layers of it... enough at this point. I think you've already demonstrated that you have the courage, honesty, and strength to do that which needs to be done. This whole post just REEKS of it. Your wife saw it too. You don't seriously think she forgot, do you?

Yes, steps forward and steps back is the order of the day for any difficult challenge. You're not exempted from that nasty rule of life. And yes, as strong as I think you are, you're still never as strong as you'd like to be. That sucks an awful lot too in my opinion. Yet another thing I'll be taking that up with God... along with mosquitoes... when I die.

Now you just need to get stronger. Yup, that stinks also. But in my experience life doesn't give us the challenges we wish it would. So sink or swim. Put the sex away for a while. If you were single you'd survive. Go back to doing what actually worked. Don't think about "when am I going to get mine?" Just focus on rebuilding the fundamentals.

I know it's hard to deal with... I know it from deep and painful personal experience. But for what it's worth you have my real respect here and my sincere belief that you can "man up" in this situation... which to me means "letting her have what she needs for as long as it takes without strings." 

Sure... eventually you'll need to make some decisions if you don't start getting your needs fulfilled. But eventually is not today. In this case, I think the much sought after "alpha" move is "giving her everything she wants to the best of your abilities indefinitely." In this case, the control I'd be exercising would be over myself not my partner. The boundaries I'd be setting would be for me, not Carol. And my expectations of absolute conformance to those boundaries would be equally strong. I expect Carol to toe the line... I expect at least that much out of myself.

Let me just say this again... I am impressed. I personally don't doubt your abilities here. So suck it up and get back to swimming again. The sinking part sucks.

Good luck

~Jeff
By the way, you're not being passive here. You are executing to a plan and it's a GOOD plan. The plan happens to call for a significant amount of time and space for your wife right now. That's not passive. That's patient.


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## Tigerman

Thanks for the encouragement. Tonight wasn't a great night - not awful and no big fight or anything, but some crossed wires made things more tense than they should have been. But, no need for me to feel like I'm walking on eggshells or like I can't be frustrated at times. Plus, constantly taking the pulse of things and thinking that every single thing means something important, is not a healthy or productive way to be. Just gotta keep moving forward with the plan as best I can and wait to see how it turns out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jeff/BC

What encourages me... and should encourage you if I've got it right... is that your wife in fact responded to your previous efforts. Go read about 90% of the other threads on this site where it is abundantly clear that the wife just plain doesn't care. 

Honestly, this looks to me like you got a machine of some sort, read the manual very carefully, reached out and pressed the red button and the light came on... exactly as you expected and the manual said it would. You just didn't hold the button down long enough.

It took time for you two to dig yourselves into this hole. It'll take time to dig out again. But so long as she's trying too, then you win.


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## Bluemoon1

I could have written that myself :smthumbup: 

I am in step lock with you, I am turning down the thermostat in my marriage, get a few encouraging signs but nothing to really celebrate. In fact I am finding sometimes it's a battle of wills now, I seem to be winning the majority of them


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## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> Plus, constantly taking the pulse of things and thinking that every single thing means something important, is not a healthy or productive way to be. Just gotta keep moving forward with the plan as best I can and wait to see how it turns out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are close here Tigerman, but there is more.

1. You were suffocating her. Excellent insight!

2. You are still suffocating her.  "wait and see how it turns out" is the wrong mental orientation. 

This whole notion of "constantly taking the pulse" is the ultimate libido killer. You are only responsible for you, your desires, wants and libido. Whether your wife is happy, sad, sexy doesn't make a damn bit of difference to your state of being. This is really hard for nice guys. Robert Glover calls it "detaching the emotional hose". This is the key to your sexual happiness.

3. Many nice guys use sex as the ultimate way to get reassurance that their wife/SO is OK with the relationship. Is this "desire for connection" a balm or a celebration of your relationship. I find it hard to believe, given all of her resentments, that it can be the later.

4. Many of us use sex/masturbation as an anxiety reducer. It took me a while to feel the difference between sexual urges and a desire for a little dopamine fix to soothe my anxieties.

5. It doesn't sound like you are taking 100% responsibility for creating this problem, but it is worth reiterating that you are only 50% responsible. She is an adult and could have called you on your behavior. As M. Scott Peck says, you can only "clean up your side of the street." Get over there, stay there and clean up the mess. Once your side is all clean, every neighbor on the block will want to play in your yard. 

On a personal note, I eliminated porn/masturbation as a part of a similar journey. It probably merits a separate post. Anyway, without the dopamine fix, I found myself with "extra" energy and/or anxiety. I have tried to deal with this "excess" as follows:

a) some of it is anxiety and I just sit with it. A good, very smart friend of mine told me that anxiety is the other side of excitement, mixed with fear. I like that and use it.

b) some of this energy is life energy and I invest it in my career and hobbies. This is the gift that keeps on giving because I end up with more energy.

c) some of the life energy goes to the people I love - wife, kids, friends. With my wife, I just love the hell out of her, flirting, acts of kindness, taking in her wonderful essence. I expect nothing in return because I have a huge reservoir of excess energy and I am happy to share it with people I love.

6. Given the history, I would consider a sexual moratorium. Dr. Glover talks about this in No More Mr. Nice Guy. Right now, your wife holds the "keys" to your sex life. A couple's sex life is a shared asset. If you haven't read the book, consider reading it and the moratorium. I think you could accelerate this healing. 

There is gold at the end of this rainbow so keep marching down the path.


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## Tigerman

FNG, I think you're right about there being something mixed-up in how I view sex with my wife. Some of it is just plain horniness and high libido. Not unhealthy at all, but I need to keep that in check for now. My own view is that masturbation is helpful in dealing with this part of things, once it's recognized as just plain horniness, but I can see why someone might benefit from not not going that route. 

Because of how bad things have been, I have also been looking to sex for that occasional reassurance. That has to stop. If I want to know whether things are getting better (even if slowly) so that I can determine whether the things I'm doing (or not doing) are on the right track, the evidence is there in the things I've already noticed. However, I shouldn't view sex (or anything else) as a *reassurance* that things are okay, getting better, etc. Collecting evidence in my efforts to do things right is one thing, needing reassurance is something quite different. I'm pretty well aware of this now and it's not all that difficult to deal with, once it's seen for what it is.

However, a lot of it really does have to do with wanting/feeling the deep connection and that's why the recent improvements have made it hard to resist the urge to up the temperature. If my wife and I spend a great week together - having fun, joking around, sharing affection, balancing parenting and household work, feeling good about ourselves as individuals and as a couple - the impulse to up the temperature, even a bit, starts to kick in. This caused the problems last night. Inspired by the fact that my wife did something that morning to bump up the temperature a bit (she popped in the bathroom while I was showering to chat a bit, gave me "goo goo" eyes, and ended up helping me dry off), I started moving the needle up a little further (the whole time having a battle raging in my head about the risks) and my wife quickly read that as me trying to lead right up to sex or being impatient with her (I wasn't trying to push things very far at all, but those old responses still kick in pretty easily). We awkwardly stumbled through the ensuing tension - no arguments, but the old pressure was definitely there - and she ended up suggesting that we have a quickie. We did that and it was not exactly my best performance (we're not talking "over before it started" here, but I'm apparently out of practice when it comes to holding off, which I'm normally very good at) and she wasn't very enthusiastic (but not a cold fish, either). So now I'm left dealing with both a bit of embarrassment about finishing early (which I'll get over) and, more importantly, feeling like a weak idiot for creating the context in which all that stuff could occur. Just another nice night around the house like the previous ones would have been great. Instead, I got a bit greedy and lost control, and the whole thing spiraled out of control. 

Everything was fine between us the rest of the night and this morning, so I'm just going to chalk this up as a very useful lesson. I think the sexual moratorium idea is appropriate here. At a minimum, I will not be taking any steps at all to up the temperature (even in response to her steps to increase the heat) and will wait for my wife to take the initiative on how high the heat gets. While it sounds like I'm turning over control to her in taking that approach, I think of it the opposite way: since I have no expectations and am no longer in pursuit mode, it's up to her to start developing the feelings (etc) on her end that put the control over our sex life in better balance. I have to be super-vigilant about keeping the desire to up the temperature completely in check during this. Yes, it feels cruddy to not be able to act on what is a normal impulse to have toward someone I love, am attracted to, and am having a good time with, but that's just how things are right now. But keeping control is a good thing and my inability to do that is a big part of why I'm where I'm at. So, now I have a project to work on by myself, which is a useful way for me to think about things. The wife and kids are away visiting family for the holiday (I have to work), so that should give me a good opportunity to totally focus on other things for a bit. And I have plenty of hobbies and other activities that normally keep me busy anyway. So, I definitely have outlets for the extra energy and attention this will leave me with.


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## Tigerman

Thinking about this a bit more, the anxiety FNG talks about has been more an issue with the conversations I've had with my wife, than with sex. It's now apparent to me that a whole lot of the conversations (arguments, etc) my wife and I have had about these issues (over the years and recently) from my end basically amount to, "Tell me everything is okay." That has to feel suffocating for her. Time for me to be more aware of that and to head it off before I open my mouth. The idea of channeling that anxiety into productive energy to be used on other things is a good one. 

I also like the idea of this being about me cleaning up my side of the block. It isn't as though there aren't things my wife needs to do (in addition to unlearning the old automatic responses), but I can't control any of that and shouldn't be worried about frequently checking to see how things are going on her end.


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## Tigerman

One last reply to myself: I really have to commit to believing that what matters is fixing up my end of things, not fixing the relationship or my wife. And part of that is not thinking that I'm fixing myself in order to fix the relationship or to fix things with my wife. I need to be focused on fixing myself, period, although I clearly want things to get better in my marriage and I believe that's only going to happen if (but not just because) I take care of my own business. Easy to say, easy to think I really believe it, but it's actually a hell of a big thing.


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## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> One last reply to myself: I really have to commit to believing that what matters is fixing up my end of things, not fixing the relationship or my wife.
> And part of that is not thinking that I'm fixing myself in order to fix the relationship or to fix things with my wife. I need to be focused on fixing myself, period, although I clearly want things to get better in my marriage and I believe that's only going to happen if (but not just because) I take care of my own business. Easy to say, easy to think I really believe it, but it's actually a hell of a big thing.


Bravo!:smthumbup:


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## Jeff/BC

OK Tigerman. I do believe that you are setting the bar for self-awareness on these boards. Man, at this point I think _I_ want to marry you


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## Tigerman

Just finished No More Mr. Nice Guy. While I disagree with what he says about abundance being all around us, all the really substantial stuff was on target. It was actually painful to read at points, because it held up a mirror to some things about myself that I didn't want to believe are true, but I know they are. I'm a classic enmesher who has his emotional state driven by how his wife is feeling and rewards all kinds of behavior that I do not like. I'm also real good at all the passive-aggressive crap and making my wife out to be a victimizer instead of simply standing my ground and dealing with the consequences. Time to throw away the emotional hose and to stop worrying about how everything that I do affects my wife's mood or sexual availability. Thanks for recommending the book.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bluemoon1

Tigerman we may live 1000's of miles away from each other but we are both in very similar positions (as I am sure many men are) I am following you every step of the way,

I made the mistake of actually arguing with her about sex last night, we were out watching a band and out the blue she said to me (without a word of a lie)

"You look absolutely gorgeous tonight, but I have to be up early for work so I don't think I could do it justice tonight"

Me rolls eyes, and say well nothings changed in 20 years has it

Her, Are you angry 

Me (Lying through my teeth) No just resigned to the fact anyway I would prefer good sex to the bad sex we have have been having lately 

Cut to when we get home: 

Me stomping about the house like a wounded moose

Her:Why are you so angry

Me: I am not angry 

Argument/Discussion ensues in bed

Same old crap, me telling her how hurtful it is to me, her telling me she has no desire for me or anyone else, but really enjoys sex when she gets going but can't can't find the motivation to get going 

Oh, a couple of old ones I have not heard for a while

You have really upset me, I was going to wear sexy underwear tomorrow night and was looking forward to a very passionate session and now you have ruined it you can just **** off now (like at could read her mind 

and

Why don't we just end it all sell the house and move on, she used to say that a lot till I reminded her it did not really show much commitment every time we argued


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## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> While I disagree with what he says about abundance being all around us, all the really substantial stuff was on target.
> 
> Time to throw away the emotional hose and to stop worrying about how everything that I do affects my wife's mood or sexual availability. Thanks for recommending the book.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:smthumbup:

I am impressed with your work ethic. On the other hand, anything more important to you in the world? I think not.

You are wrong about the abundance thing, but that will take time. Detach the hose and watch what happens. Come back in a month and tell me the world isn't abundant.


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## FormerNiceGuy

Bluemoon1 said:


> Tigerman we may live 1000's of miles away from each other but we are both in very similar positions (as I am sure many men are) I am following you every step of the way,
> 
> ......we were out watching a band and out the blue she said to me (without a word of a lie)
> 
> "You look absolutely gorgeous tonight, but I have to be up early for work so I don't think I could do it justice tonight"


You are like a teenage boy playing with a howitzer. Too much power too soon

The exchange at the bar means the work you are doing on yourself is being noticed. Your wife's response was wonderful.

Keep the faith and keep fixing yourself.


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## Conrad

Tigerman said:


> Just finished No More Mr. Nice Guy. While I disagree with what he says about abundance being all around us, all the really substantial stuff was on target. It was actually painful to read at points, because it held up a mirror to some things about myself that I didn't want to believe are true, but I know they are. I'm a classic enmesher who has his emotional state driven by how his wife is feeling and rewards all kinds of behavior that I do not like. I'm also real good at all the passive-aggressive crap and making my wife out to be a victimizer instead of simply standing my ground and dealing with the consequences. Time to throw away the emotional hose and to stop worrying about how everything that I do affects my wife's mood or sexual availability. Thanks for recommending the book.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Curious...

Why do you disagree that abundance is all around us?


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## Conrad

Jeff/BC said:


> OK Tigerman. I do believe that you are setting the bar for self-awareness on these boards. Man, at this point I think _I_ want to marry you


Jeff,

After the feedback you got on your sex ideas in other threads, you may want to tread lightly here


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## Bluemoon1

FNG I read about the sexual moratorium and I must admit the idea made a lot of sense, but the very thought sends shudders down my spine, however when this holiday weekend is over (in the UK at least) I may give it some more thought, it seems a bit atomic bomb if you know what I mean, I am also interested in reading more about your experiences


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## MEM2020

When she said "have to get up early so I don't think I could do it justice tonight" 

The response from you is: "Anticipation is a beautiful thing, make sure to get home from work on time tomorrow" and then smile and enjoy your evening. 

The next night - if you get any resistance, you up the alpha a bit and smile - tell her - if you tease me like last night and then try to shut me down a full day later - I will have to spank you. And then see what happens. If she sincerely digs in and tells you she is not interested, then you freeze her out. You don't argue, complain, etc. You simply immediately deprioritize her and start being home less and being with her less when you are home. 

A fair boundary for the high drive spouse is: My LD partner is not allowed to tease me and then deny me in a blatantly *couldn't be bothered* - kind of way. Because that is the more powerful (LD) partner, abusing their power in a self serving way. 

As for the night you were out. It is ambiguous. Meaning she really may have been setting the stage for the next night. And as the HD partner you need to create situations where it is clear your boundaries have been blatantly violated before you react. She can't be walking on egg shells whenever she flirts. But neither can she flirt and forget - which can become an LD speciality if you aren't careful.




Bluemoon1 said:


> Tigerman we may live 1000's of miles away from each other but we are both in very similar positions (as I am sure many men are) I am following you every step of the way,
> 
> I made the mistake of actually arguing with her about sex last night, we were out watching a band and out the blue she said to me (without a word of a lie)
> 
> "You look absolutely gorgeous tonight, but I have to be up early for work so I don't think I could do it justice tonight"
> 
> Me rolls eyes, and say well nothings changed in 20 years has it
> 
> Her, Are you angry
> 
> Me (Lying through my teeth) No just resigned to the fact anyway I would prefer good sex to the bad sex we have have been having lately
> 
> Cut to when we get home:
> 
> Me stomping about the house like a wounded moose
> 
> Her:Why are you so angry
> 
> Me: I am not angry
> 
> Argument/Discussion ensues in bed
> 
> Same old crap, me telling her how hurtful it is to me, her telling me she has no desire for me or anyone else, but really enjoys sex when she gets going but can't can't find the motivation to get going
> 
> Oh, a couple of old ones I have not heard for a while
> 
> You have really upset me, I was going to wear sexy underwear tomorrow night and was looking forward to a very passionate session and now you have ruined it you can just **** off now (like at could read her mind
> 
> and
> 
> Why don't we just end it all sell the house and move on, she used to say that a lot till I reminded her it did not really show much commitment every time we argued


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## Tigerman

Conrad:

The short story about why I don't think abundance is all around is that my experience has taught me that too many of the people and institutions I deal with on a regular basis are not up to participating in or supporting mature and balanced interactions; e.g., not involving double-standards, not coming at things from a selfish perspective, interested in accepting situations for what they are and realistically dealing with the attendant limitations and consequences. Unrealistic expectations, insecurity, envy, laziness, and a sense of entitlement are far too prevalent. That doesn't mean that I can't still get a lot out of life, that I think everyone is morally terrible, or that every interaction with others is subpar. However, it does suggest to me that to the extent that the things I want to achieve are dependent on the cooperation of others (and pretty much everything in life is like that in some way), "abundance" doesn't really describe the situation. That said, what should matter most to me is *how* I'm doing things and the efforts I make to align my actions with my values and priorities. Am I working to be the best I can in the imperfect situations that are just part of living in the real world? So, the fact that I don't believe I'm surrounded by abundance doesn't really place any interesting limits on me.

I feel like I made decent progress with detaching the emotional hose. Not a perfect performance, but much better than what I would have done in the past. The wife and kids get back from their trip last night and she's just bushed. She's also cranky. A lot of that has to do with being tired, as my wife is one of those people who is badly affected by fatigue. Plus she's stressed from taking care of the kids for almost three days while I was at home. So, she's quiet and largely withdrawn last night. No problem, I have things to do and the evening passes without incident. I felt a little bit of the old anxiety of "does this mood have anything to do with me?", but I recognized it for that and just set it aside. It'd be nice to not even have that feeling, but getting to that point is off in the future. 

However, I knew she was going to wake up still cranky. And she did. And our youngest was a bit sick, meaning that she was going to stay home from school, which blew up my wife's plans for the day. That sort of change and interruption is another thing that really throws her off. So, now she's tired and cranky, still working through the stress of her trip and now stressed yet further from the motherly instincts that kick in when a little one is ill, and agitated from the disappointment of having her plans for the day suddenly messed up. And then my oldest asks her why she's being so crabby. Which is yet another trigger, as I know my wife feels like she's been made the emotional center of the family and that everyone is always on the lookout for how she feels (I know my past behaviors definitely played a significant role in things turning out like this), and this is a major weight for her. So, it's an emotional tsunami at this point and she's totally walling herself off from everyone and everything, except for with the sick little one, as she's in full-on nurturing mode with her.

Now, I could have just totally not engaged with her, went about my morning business, and just left for work after quietly taking on a more active role in getting the older kids out the door for school. But, since I knew a lot of stuff was piling up for her, I thought it would be the decent thing to do to see if there was anything I could do to help her. And that triggered the following response: "Why am I getting attacked this morning for being how I am? The oldest was after me about it as soon as she got up and now it's you. Why does everything that goes on here always come down to how I'm feeling?" I didn't get emotional in reply or let the growing anxiety drive my response, although that clearly would have been the old standard course of action. Instead, I simply said, "Hey, I just wanted to make sure you're okay and see if you needed anything. No big deal. I wasn't looking for anything from you." Then I walked away. About fifteen minutes later she had calmed down a bit and came out to hug me (fortunately, no mention by either of us of what just happened), and shortly thereafter we said our usual good-byes for the day with no lingering bad feelings.

Now, part of me thinks that I shouldn't even have checked whether she was okay and needed me to do anything to help her out. After all, she's responsible for her happiness (etc) and if there was something she wanted/needed me to do, she should have said something. On the other hand, knowing how she shuts down when any one of the factors in play is present, and knowing how overwhelmed she's probably feeling, I also figured that she maybe could use some help, but couldn't articulate that and that I'd just suck it up and try to be at least outwardly supportive and concerned. I can't get paralyzed by trying to scrutinize every single decision I make or action I take, though, so I'm not going to worry what was right or wrong about that. In the end, what matters is that I didn't let the anxiety take a hold of me, didn't fixate on her mood in some "we have to fix this now" way, and didn't get into some post-game analysis of the situation once it resolved. Plus, I think it was good to clearly tell her that I wasn't looking for anything from her in the situation - wasn't needing her to feel good so that I could feel good, wasn't trying to fix her or change her mood, etc. In fact, I'd love for that to sink in with her, although I have no idea whether it will.


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## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> Plus, I think it was good to clearly tell her that I wasn't looking for anything from her in the situation - wasn't needing her to feel good so that I could feel good, wasn't trying to fix her or change her mood, etc. In fact, I'd love for that to sink in with her, although I have no idea whether it will.


TigerMan, that is a great story. Awareness is 90% of the battle and you are awake and paying attention. It gets easier and the more she sees that you don't have an agenda, the easier it will be for her to just take your offer and accept your help.


----------



## Tigerman

Just a random observation that's emerged out of this: Over the last few months, I've been doing a lot of thinking about what a raging ayehole (among other things) I was for so long and why. That's been really useful for getting a better understanding of the actual situation, what I need to change about myself and why, and the reasons my wife has such strongly built walls right now. The problem is that the guilt that comes from realizing all this is is just crushing. Again, I didn't create this problem entirely by myself and I know there are things my wife needs to work on if her side of the street is going to get cleaned up. But when the pangs of guilt and shame about my past immaturity, selfishness, and insecurity kick in, that just amps up the craving for reassurance from her that everything is okay. Which certainly increases the degree of difficulty for my efforts to stop engaging in assurance-seeking behaviors merely for the sake of soothing my anxiety.

The hardest part of manning up just might be dealing with the long, hard look you end up taking at the version of you who needed to man up.


----------



## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> The hardest part of manning up just might be dealing with the long, hard look you end up taking at the version of you who needed to man up.


Congratulations. Your process continues to be inspirational.


----------



## Tigerman

Couple updates. First, no sex since that last time about two weeks ago. But the affectionate behavior and closeness are way up, with no arguments or tension. Feels good to have the air clearing, even if I'm dying to get laid! Last Thursday, we were making out in bed after a long day. My wife started to say something about knowing I wanted to go on and wishing that she had the energy for it, but I jumped right in and said that I was really tired and was just about ready to pass out. She obviously found that a bit unexpected and it felt good to put the brakes on things in a loose way like that. It wasn't revenge for past rejections, wasn't trying to send a message or anything. Just, I'm tired, you're tired, let's enjoy this and leave it at that.

On Monday night, I decided to take a chance and, after the kids went to bed, in a casual and fun way, told my wife that if she wanted to have sex with me that night, I wouldn't say no. She replied that she was really worn out and stressed from the day, but that we should definitely do it later in the week. She and I both have things that might prevent that happening until the weekend, but no problem there. I'm going to leave it to her to keep this in mind and initiate when she has the time/focus/energy. I won't even offer any reminders.

This morning, I woke up cranky. Just tired and still stressed from a bad day at work yesterday. My wife notices this and almost immediately starts worrying that I'm mad at her about something. I reassure her that everything's okay, tell her that it's fatigue and work stress, we make out a bit, and nothing else comes of it. On the one hand, this is great - she's clearly responding to me, wants to be close to me, and sees continued good feelings between us as worth having. On the other hand, this drives me nuts. Whenever she's moody/cranky/whatever, if I asked her what's wrong or whether I did something to upset her (which I've stopped asking), she'd get irritated and makes it clear that I shouldn't think her moods are so dependent on me. However, for her it seems perfectly okay to think that my bad mood has to do with something connected to her. I'm not going to get too wrapped up in this, but it is a frustrating double standard.

Lastly, found out some more stuff from my wife about just how badly the grief she's been dealing with has affected her. It's been over a year now and she still gets very sad, very easily. Makes it pretty easy to understand why her libido would be just about gone, especially with all the other stuff going on. Also makes it easy to see why it would have been so hard for us to connect in pretty much any way during that time. It also makes me feel like a jerk for not realizing how strong those feelings have continued to be for her.


----------



## Jeff/BC

Tigerman said:


> The hardest part of manning up just might be dealing with the long, hard look you end up taking at the version of you who needed to man up.


The only problem with being strong is that you have to be strong.


----------



## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> This morning, I woke up cranky. Just tired and still stressed from a bad day at work yesterday. My wife notices this and almost immediately starts worrying that I'm mad at her about something. I reassure her that everything's okay, tell her that it's fatigue and work stress, we make out a bit, and nothing else comes of it. On the one hand, this is great - she's clearly responding to me, wants to be close to me, and sees continued good feelings between us as worth having. On the other hand, this drives me nuts. Whenever she's moody/cranky/whatever, if I asked her what's wrong or whether I did something to upset her (which I've stopped asking), she'd get irritated and makes it clear that I shouldn't think her moods are so dependent on me. However, for her it seems perfectly okay to think that my bad mood has to do with something connected to her. I'm not going to get too wrapped up in this, but it is a frustrating double standard.
> 
> Lastly, found out some more stuff from my wife about just how badly the grief she's been dealing with has affected her. It's been over a year now and she still gets very sad, very easily. Makes it pretty easy to understand why her libido would be just about gone, especially with all the other stuff going on. Also makes it easy to see why it would have been so hard for us to connect in pretty much any way during that time. It also makes me feel like a jerk for not realizing how strong those feelings have continued to be for her.



I think this is the "sh#t test" from your wife. The minute you start reassuring her that you aren't mad at her, you are back in care taking mode. Don't take the bait - use humor or just kindly dismiss it. "Let me be grumpy." 

My wife started taking piano lessons and she has issues around it. I asked her how her last lesson went and she crankily told me she doesn't want to talk about it. I chuckled. Later, she said "I don't want feedback, just to express a couple of feelings." I listened, gave her a hug and that was that. All good.

I can relate to the harsh clarity of the mirror when you stop to look at it. I would own it and put words to it for your wife. She may react by getting mad - I would smile and say, yes, I didn't behave very well, I am sorry. Sincerity & authenticity.


----------



## MEM2020

Tiger,
You are doing great. As for the she gets to ask you - you don't get to ask her - that really is ok. You will never be perfectly matched in terms of what bothers each other. If she easily feels crowded when she is upset, give her space. 

If it isn't a big headache for you - when you are upset and she asks - just acknowledge it - ideally with a smile: Yes I am grumpy right now. It won't last. And then go on with your day. IF she pushes you with "are you mad at me"? You are within your rights to be kind and respond with "not you, just the situation". Or if you prefer "This isn't a good time to talk - lets catch up later". This is not "shutting her down", but it is enforcing a boundary which is: If I am upset (but not taking it out on anyone) I have the right to insist on some space. 

My only suggestion is that this needs to be based on what YOU want to do, independent of what she does. 

As for kissing and stuff. That is great. It is also fair to say "If you are really tired - lets not kiss - it is hard for me to fall asleep if we kiss and then stop". This is a basic acknowledgement of the difference between male and female physiology. 

And this too - needs to be handled firmly but fairly. If she attempts to turn the "no kissing" into "are you angry at me". You might want to mix some kindness in with the honesty. 

"Mad - my W wants to make out with me - I am not mad I am happy. I just know that kissing you wakes me UP and then it is hard to sleep - not mad at all". 





Tigerman said:


> Couple updates. First, no sex since that last time about two weeks ago. But the affectionate behavior and closeness are way up, with no arguments or tension. Feels good to have the air clearing, even if I'm dying to get laid! Last Thursday, we were making out in bed after a long day. My wife started to say something about knowing I wanted to go on and wishing that she had the energy for it, but I jumped right in and said that I was really tired and was just about ready to pass out. She obviously found that a bit unexpected and it felt good to put the brakes on things in a loose way like that. It wasn't revenge for past rejections, wasn't trying to send a message or anything. Just, I'm tired, you're tired, let's enjoy this and leave it at that.
> 
> On Monday night, I decided to take a chance and, after the kids went to bed, in a casual and fun way, told my wife that if she wanted to have sex with me that night, I wouldn't say no. She replied that she was really worn out and stressed from the day, but that we should definitely do it later in the week. She and I both have things that might prevent that happening until the weekend, but no problem there. I'm going to leave it to her to keep this in mind and initiate when she has the time/focus/energy. I won't even offer any reminders.
> 
> This morning, I woke up cranky. Just tired and still stressed from a bad day at work yesterday. My wife notices this and almost immediately starts worrying that I'm mad at her about something. I reassure her that everything's okay, tell her that it's fatigue and work stress, we make out a bit, and nothing else comes of it. On the one hand, this is great - she's clearly responding to me, wants to be close to me, and sees continued good feelings between us as worth having. On the other hand, this drives me nuts. Whenever she's moody/cranky/whatever, if I asked her what's wrong or whether I did something to upset her (which I've stopped asking), she'd get irritated and makes it clear that I shouldn't think her moods are so dependent on me. However, for her it seems perfectly okay to think that my bad mood has to do with something connected to her. I'm not going to get too wrapped up in this, but it is a frustrating double standard.
> 
> Lastly, found out some more stuff from my wife about just how badly the grief she's been dealing with has affected her. It's been over a year now and she still gets very sad, very easily. Makes it pretty easy to understand why her libido would be just about gone, especially with all the other stuff going on. Also makes it easy to see why it would have been so hard for us to connect in pretty much any way during that time. It also makes me feel like a jerk for not realizing how strong those feelings have continued to be for her.


----------



## Tigerman

Thanks for all the feedback. Things are going very well now. In fact, my wife told me last night that she's glad we're fully back together as partners, after such up-and-down times. There's still a lot I need to do to make sure I continue to build on the steps I've taken to improve myself. And I definitely want to make sure that the current good times continue before I get too comfortable. But it's good to see that the efforts so far have really had some effect. This no longer feels so hopeless, that's for sure.

One problem now is a concern about PE. When we had sex two weeks ago, I came much faster than I wanted to. Last night was no better. I've never had this problem before. My wife was totally cool about it and we joked about trying to add another minute when we do it tonight (!). But, I don't want this to go on. I'm sure a lot of this is just being out of practice (drops of water to a man who just came out of the desert) and a lot also has to do with anxiety about wanting it to be good after things had been bad for so long. This will likely sort itself out in a short bit of time, but if anyone has any advice about this, I'd appreciate it. 

Thanks again for all the feedback. This forum has been a huge help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

After you’ve PEd just take your time and work up for a second time. More caresses, massage for your wife, fingering, derive and give pleasure from finding her erogenous zones .... It’s all you need do. Maybe make sure there’s some nibbles and drink on hand, chocs that sort of thing.


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## Mavash.

Most women understand it going fast when it's been a while. Don't stress over it. It's totally normal.


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## Jeff/BC

Tigerman said:


> One problem now is a concern about PE.


I know I say this regularly and it never seems to be correct. But I still don't fully get why this is a problem. I'd venture to say that maybe 90% of the time I cum before Carol... on round 1.

Frequently, there'll be a short intermission while I reconnect with reality and catch my breath. Then we move on to me playing with her... now undistracted by my own needs. Depending on how the timing all works out and relative energy and desire levels, one or both of us will want rounds 2, 3, and 4.


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## AFEH

Tigerman said:


> Conrad:
> 
> The short story about why I don't think abundance is all around is that my experience has taught me that too many of the people and institutions I deal with on a regular basis are not up to participating in or supporting mature and balanced interactions; e.g., not involving double-standards, not coming at things from a selfish perspective, interested in accepting situations for what they are and realistically dealing with the attendant limitations and consequences. Unrealistic expectations, insecurity, envy, laziness, and a sense of entitlement are far too prevalent. That doesn't mean that I can't still get a lot out of life, that I think everyone is morally terrible, or that every interaction with others is subpar. However, it does suggest to me that to the extent that the things I want to achieve are dependent on the cooperation of others (and pretty much everything in life is like that in some way), "abundance" doesn't really describe the situation. That said, what should matter most to me is *how* I'm doing things and the efforts I make to align my actions with my values and priorities. Am I working to be the best I can in the imperfect situations that are just part of living in the real world? So, the fact that I don't believe I'm surrounded by abundance doesn't really place any interesting limits on me.
> 
> I feel like I made decent progress with detaching the emotional hose. Not a perfect performance, but much better than what I would have done in the past. The wife and kids get back from their trip last night and she's just bushed. She's also cranky. A lot of that has to do with being tired, as my wife is one of those people who is badly affected by fatigue. Plus she's stressed from taking care of the kids for almost three days while I was at home. So, she's quiet and largely withdrawn last night. No problem, I have things to do and the evening passes without incident. I felt a little bit of the old anxiety of "does this mood have anything to do with me?", but I recognized it for that and just set it aside. It'd be nice to not even have that feeling, but getting to that point is off in the future.
> 
> However, I knew she was going to wake up still cranky. And she did. And our youngest was a bit sick, meaning that she was going to stay home from school, which blew up my wife's plans for the day. That sort of change and interruption is another thing that really throws her off. So, now she's tired and cranky, still working through the stress of her trip and now stressed yet further from the motherly instincts that kick in when a little one is ill, and agitated from the disappointment of having her plans for the day suddenly messed up. And then my oldest asks her why she's being so crabby. Which is yet another trigger, as I know my wife feels like she's been made the emotional center of the family and that everyone is always on the lookout for how she feels (I know my past behaviors definitely played a significant role in things turning out like this), and this is a major weight for her. So, it's an emotional tsunami at this point and she's totally walling herself off from everyone and everything, except for with the sick little one, as she's in full-on nurturing mode with her.
> 
> Now, I could have just totally not engaged with her, went about my morning business, and just left for work after quietly taking on a more active role in getting the older kids out the door for school. But, since I knew a lot of stuff was piling up for her, I thought it would be the decent thing to do to see if there was anything I could do to help her. And that triggered the following response: "Why am I getting attacked this morning for being how I am? The oldest was after me about it as soon as she got up and now it's you. Why does everything that goes on here always come down to how I'm feeling?" I didn't get emotional in reply or let the growing anxiety drive my response, although that clearly would have been the old standard course of action. Instead, I simply said, "Hey, I just wanted to make sure you're okay and see if you needed anything. No big deal. I wasn't looking for anything from you." Then I walked away. About fifteen minutes later she had calmed down a bit and came out to hug me (fortunately, no mention by either of us of what just happened), and shortly thereafter we said our usual good-byes for the day with no lingering bad feelings.
> 
> Now, part of me thinks that I shouldn't even have checked whether she was okay and needed me to do anything to help her out. After all, she's responsible for her happiness (etc) and if there was something she wanted/needed me to do, she should have said something. On the other hand, knowing how she shuts down when any one of the factors in play is present, and knowing how overwhelmed she's probably feeling, I also figured that she maybe could use some help, but couldn't articulate that and that I'd just suck it up and try to be at least outwardly supportive and concerned. I can't get paralyzed by trying to scrutinize every single decision I make or action I take, though, so I'm not going to worry what was right or wrong about that. In the end, what matters is that I didn't let the anxiety take a hold of me, didn't fixate on her mood in some "we have to fix this now" way, and didn't get into some post-game analysis of the situation once it resolved. Plus, I think it was good to clearly tell her that I wasn't looking for anything from her in the situation - wasn't needing her to feel good so that I could feel good, wasn't trying to fix her or change her mood, etc. In fact, I'd love for that to sink in with her, although I have no idea whether it will.


I feel pretty certain Conrad didn’t mean to look for abundance amongst humanity, although it’s surely there. And most certainly not to look for it through you ego consciousness in your normal everyday life. Because that ego when we’re are so tied to it as you are in the above prevents us from seeing things.

No. What I think Conrad meant is the abundance that’s right around us at all times in nature. In that rose of many colours and giving off a sweet scent. In those ants building their nest and foraging as they go their way. Up in the summers sky where there’s to be seen fantastic tones of blue and white. In the woods where the birds are singing.

That’s what I think Conrad meant. You’ve obviously got your head right into your ego related world that just maybe you really are missing the abundance that’s all around you.

It happens at times in our life when troubles are many and pressures are great. When we’re so mixed up in it all that we don’t take time out and stop and smell the roses.


If you could develop your observer consciousness by reading Awareness by Anthony de Mello you’ll come to understand what Conrad means and your world will begin changing for the better. You will literally see the world through different and more enlightened eyes. You’ll see things you’ve never seen before yet they’ve always been there. And all it takes is a read, no drugs, no drinking, nothing other than a new and very different perspective on your life.


----------



## Jeff/BC

Tigerman said:


> Conrad:
> I thought it would be the decent thing to do to see if there was anything I could do to help her. And that triggered the following response: "Why am I getting attacked this morning for being how I am?


That, plain and simple, is emotional warfare. The only winning strategy is to not play. She absolutely knows that she is doing it. You are not required to be a victim. You were not attacking her. She was attacking you.



> Instead, I simply said, "Hey, I just wanted to make sure you're okay and see if you needed anything. No big deal. I wasn't looking for anything from you." Then I walked away.


excellent



> About fifteen minutes later she had calmed down a bit and came out to hug me (fortunately, no mention by either of us of what just happened)


hrrrrrm... wouldn't have been my play. Some days I think I'm not only "not a nice guy", but a complete bastard because I don't allow anyone... especially Carol... to attack me without either engaging in the conflict or walking away from the entire situation. I'd have been establishing some boundaries there, eg:

"Aww, I love you too honey. Now sit down, we need to talk."



> Now, part of me thinks that I shouldn't even have checked whether she was okay and needed me to do anything to help her out.


Sure... because... you know... caring about the woman you love is a bad thing, right? A favorite war author of mine said (probably misquoted):

_You cannot engage in a war without becoming more like your enemy._

I'd avoid doing that. I agree that you need to avoid engaging in her warfare. That does not mean you have no boundaries.


----------



## Conrad

Quoted for Truth



AFEH said:


> I feel pretty certain Conrad didn’t mean to look for abundance amongst humanity, although it’s surely there. And most certainly not to look for it through you ego consciousness in your normal everyday life. Because that ego when we’re are so tied to it as you are in the above prevents us from seeing things.
> 
> No. What I think Conrad meant is the abundance that’s right around us at all times in nature. In that rose of many colours and giving off a sweet scent. In those ants building their nest and foraging as they go their way. Up in the summers sky where there’s to be seen fantastic tones of blue and white. In the woods where the birds are singing.
> 
> That’s what I think Conrad meant. You’ve obviously got your head right into your ego related world that just maybe you really are missing the abundance that’s all around you.
> 
> It happens at times in our life when troubles are many and pressures are great. When we’re so mixed up in it all that we don’t take time out and stop and smell the roses.
> 
> 
> If you could develop your observer consciousness by reading Awareness by Anthony de Mello you’ll come to understand what Conrad means and your world will begin changing for the better. You will literally see the world through different and more enlightened eyes. You’ll see things you’ve never seen before yet they’ve always been there. And all it takes is a read, no drugs, no drinking, nothing other than a new and very different perspective on your life.


----------



## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> One problem now is a concern about PE. When we had sex two weeks ago, I came much faster than I wanted to. Last night was no better. I've never had this problem before. My wife was totally cool about it and we joked about trying to add another minute when we do it tonight (!). But, I don't want this to go on. I'm sure a lot of this is just being out of practice (drops of water to a man who just came out of the desert) and a lot also has to do with *anxiety about wanting it to be good* after things had been bad for so long. This will likely sort itself out in a short bit of time, but if anyone has any advice about this, I'd appreciate it.


You are not fully detached (see my bold above). Keeping working it and it will get better. 

As a part of my similar process, I quit porn/masturbation and fantasy and lost some control. I started the moratorium (p/f/m) about 4 months ago and I have noticed of late that I have better control than ever. I don't attribute the improved performance solely to the moratorium, but rather as a part of an overall process. 

My wife and I are having a fantastic time in bed.

Suggested Readings:

1. Arousal - Michael Bader
2. The Way of the Superior Man - David Deida.


----------



## Tigerman

Well, somehow in the last 36 hours, everything has gone right to hell. I think I see my role in this, but I'm totally blindsided by how badly this has gone. Time to mentally check out for a bit, as I can't really contemplate this right now. Damn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash.

Tigerman said:


> Well, somehow in the last 36 hours, everything has gone right to hell. I think I see my role in this, but I'm totally blindsided by how badly this has gone. Time to mentally check out for a bit, as I can't really contemplate this right now. Damn.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm so sorry. Setbacks suck don't they?


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## Tigerman

Yeah. This feels like a kick to the gut.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hldnhope

Hoping for a positive update....


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## Tigerman

Things have stabilized a bit and aren't nearly as bad as they were Saturday evening. They're also not back to being as good as they were Friday night, either. We've both been very busy this week, which has probably been good, as it's allowed us to focus on things other than the relationship and to just let the hard feelings from the weekend settle down on their own. Still feel like we've made a lot of progress, but it was a lot better feeling Friday night! Oh well, this was a good reminder that there is plenty of work for me still to do on my side of the street.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anubis

MEM11363 said:


> As for the night you were out. It is ambiguous. Meaning she really may have been setting the stage for the next night. And as the HD partner you need to create situations where it is clear your boundaries have been blatantly violated before you react. She can't be walking on egg shells whenever she flirts. But neither can she flirt and forget - which can become an LD speciality if you aren't careful.
> 
> 
> Bluemoon1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> I made the mistake of actually arguing with her about sex last night, we were out watching a band and out the blue she said to me (without a word of a lie)
> 
> "You look absolutely gorgeous tonight, but I have to be up early for work so I don't think I could do it justice tonight"
> 
> Me rolls eyes, and say well nothings changed in 20 years has it
> 
> ...
> 
> Oh, a couple of old ones I have not heard for a while
> 
> You have really upset me, I was going to wear sexy underwear tomorrow night and was looking forward to a very passionate session and now you have ruined it you can just **** off now (like at could read her mind
> 
> and
> 
> Why don't we just end it all sell the house and move on, she used to say that a lot till I reminded her it did not really show much commitment every time we argued
Click to expand...

Mem & Bluemoon,

I'm going to call Bull***t on her behavior being ambiguous. She NEVER had any true intention of having sex with her hubby in those instances. What she was doing was building up a list of "events" to throw back at him at a later date to keep herself from looking bad and to out the blame back on him. It's a combination of deceit, manipulation, and gaslighting. So the next time Bluemoon says "we never have sex" she could come back with "We are going to have it (then) and (this other time) but we didn't because (YOU did this.../You Ruined it)". It gives her "plausible deniability" and lets her shift the blame to him when accused of deliberately shutting her husband off. It's a power play and "management" of her husband to keep him in line and serving her without having hold up her end of things. It's also indicative of a lack of respect - she sees her husband as someone to "manage", not as someone worthy of giving herself to (in this arena of life). Bottom line, she knows what she is doing, and it is deliberate and deceptive.


P.S. Multi-quote appears to be broken - I had to manually copy in the inner quote. Is anyone else having this problem?


----------



## Tigerman

Just another update, although this might be my last (connected to something below):

*Things are going well overall. I've gotten a lot better at recognizing when I'm feeling the urge to re-attach the emotional hose. I've been largely successful in resisting the urge, too, and haven't had any major gaffes in that regard. The few squabbles we've had have been about misunderstandings that, at least on the surface, aren't due to neediness on my part or anything like that. 

*Unfortunately, an argument from the weekend took us down a peg or two from a high point we had built up to over the last few weeks, but it's not a permanent setback and this kind of up-and-down is probably to be expected at this point. My wife tends to get a bit depressed or withdrawn after these arguments, but I'm faring pretty well when it comes to not plugging into that and making matters worse. Since she's also sick, just emerging from a stressful run with work, and probably about to go on her period, I think her extra sensitivity in this case is understandable. Not to blame-shift, but I take those factors to be largely responsible for why the argument even started, although I should have been the adult in the room and just walked away when it started revving up. Anyway, I think it's safe to say that we'll soon be working our way back up the mountain once those things pass and we get a little more distance from the argument. Nothing terrible, but it's another one of these cases where things felt great a week ago but now are just okay. Of course, "just okay" is a lot better than where we were a few months ago, so I'll take it.

*She and I are both talked out. We've covered all the stuff that needs to be covered, at least for now, and there's definitely fatigue on both sides from the effort. It was pretty intense for a while and we have to get a break from thinking and talking about the relationship, in order to just enjoy it. So, I'm making a concerted effort to not think about what needs to be fixed, but to just go with the flow of things with her. Too much focus on every single thing that isn't just right leads to constantly taking the temperature of the relationship, which is bad for both of us. She's been guilty of this, too, so we've agreed to help each other try to keep the focus off of the relationship itself.

*What I wish I could do is rid myself of the urge to re-attach the emotional hose. This is really a major PITA, as the urge kicks in more frequently than I would care to admit. Much of this is due to some deeply engrained nice-guy tendencies that I'm still purging. I recognize that I can't make this crap stop just by being aware of it, but it sometimes feels as though I'm confronting this urge more now than I ever did before. I think I'd be enjoying things a lot more right now if I wasn't eating this anxiety so much of the time. I have some good outlets for the anxiety, but I honestly believe that the supply of anxiety is greatly outrunning the time, energy, and opportunity I have to take advantage of those outlets. I have to believe this will get better in time.

*One other thing that I've recognized as contributing to the temptation to re-attach the emotional hose and to feel all that anxiety, is fear of PA or EA. On more than one occasion, I have found myself worrying that my wife is playing me for a fool and that she's not really enjoying how much better things are between us, but is instead relieved that I think things are better so that she'll be able to more easily conduct an affair. This is completely nuts. I mean, insane in the membrane. While there is always some chance that my wife is some evil mastermind who can and would juggle a zillion things and an affair, it doesn't make sense at all. She has next-to-no opportunity, has been very sincere in her positive responses to my efforts, seems genuinely happy that things are so much better between us, clearly finds me attractive along all relevant dimensions, and has never before given me any indication that she might stray. Plus, (and this is said half in jest) she's too lazy to have an affair - whatever sex she'd want, it'd be easier for her to just have it with me than to put in all the work needed to start and hide an affair. Trust me, the one thing I know about my wife is that she'd minimize her effort if she could. So, why the worries about an affair? Well, at least part of that has to do with some things I think I've absorbed from reading posts here. For one thing, a lot of the posts here deal with actual cases of wives cheating, far more than I would guess is representative of reality, based on the research I've seen. But, it's more pervasive than that. In pretty much every case where some guy posts about a problem he's having with his wife, in the midst of a reasonable discussion that deals with the known facts of the matter, sooner or later there's a response that says basically, "That definitely sounds like she's having an affair. Classic signs. You'd better install a VAR and a keystroke logger. Sorry to break the bad news, buddy." Yes, some women cheat and I'm sure even my own wife would be tempted in the right circumstances. But it's really unhealthy, at least for someone in my position, to so regularly expose myself to stimuli in which marital problems and infidelity are automatically linked. I've learned a lot from what I've read on this board and I think my marriage and myself as an individual are much better off because of what I've learned here. But the "marital problems = adultery" equation that often crops up in posts is just mind poison for me. I'm trying to read the posts here with a filter on for unwarranted accusations of infidelity (and, to be clear, I don't think all suggestions of potential infidelity are wrong or inappropriate, it's just the seemingly large number of cases where it's totally speculative or just incongruous), but I know it seeps through. The last thing I want to do is screw up the progress that has been made in my relationship because of baseless worries about infidelity. I never had this sort of worry before I started reading things here. Some of this might simply be due to me now being better aware of what's going on inside my head and perhaps some such worry was kicking around in there without being recognized. Maybe. My guess, though, is that I'm going through some sort of "emotional hose" withdraw and it just doesn't mix well with that "infidelity is lurking just around the corner" message. Whatever the reason, if my mental filter for this stuff doesn't improve, I might have to simply unplug myself from this site. While I'd prefer not to do that, because of how much I've already benefited from this site and how much more I think I stand to benefit, it would be stupid of me to continue doing something that I know is harming me (even if the harm is due to a weakness on my part when it comes to how I process stuff that I rationally acknowledge doesn't pertain to my situation).


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## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> The last thing I want to do is screw up the progress that has been made in my relationship because of baseless worries about infidelity.


Hear you loud and clear.

Recognize that forums like TAM give you a great opportunity to "trigger" on all sorts of things. Infidelity appears to be a huge trigger for you.

You have a knack for being self-reflective and owning your stuff. This trigger is a gift.

Remember, you can't control your wife's behavior and are detaching the hose. You would survive if something like that happened. The anxiety is old stuff about control - follow the thread and see what you can uncover.

Keep up the good work.


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## Tigerman

FormerNiceGuy said:


> Remember, you can't control your wife's behavior and are detaching the hose .... The anxiety is old stuff about control


Bingo! Good observation and a useful reminder. Based on what I've learned about myself as I've gone through all this, I can definitely see control issues playing a major role in lots of things I've done, going way back to my youth. Having this pointed out will be useful going forward. Thanks.


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## Tigerman

Yet another update. We're in kind of a strange place right now. We haven't had sex in probably a month. Most of that is due to life happening in various ways for three weeks, but about a week of it (and counting) is due to the fallout we had from an argument about sex. The argument about sex was stupid in lots of ways, since it was really the result of both of us being tired and stressed and just looking to take it out on someone. Sex was (and always has been) the easiest topic for us to focus on for the fight we were both spoiling for. Really, the fight could have been about how the dishes get cleaned or the laundry gets folded. The good news is that I learned some important things from the fight and its fallout. First, my wife is desperate to have a long calm period without any conflict or discussion about the relationship, and is feeling overwhelmed by all the change of the last few months. Since the fight, there's been almost no discussion about the relationship (the one little talk we had was initiated by her) and we've had just one flare-up about something not related to sex that was quickly and easily smoothed out (with her taking the lead on that). I also want to just focus on living our lives and enjoying our relationship, rather than making the relationship our life's labor. So, this last week or so has been good for both of us and I'm expecting it to continue.

Plus, as much as I've turned down the temperature, she's still feeling pressured about sex. Some of her statements during that last big fight were almost straight out of the thermostat thread. While this frustrates me, I can understand her perspective. The last decade between us has been consumed with a struggle over sex and she can't help but feel shame and frustration any time I'm even remotely sexual with her and she declines or doesn't respond in kind. And all that does is make sex for her something to deal with, rather than something to enjoy. She needs more of a break from this part of things than I've given her, so that she can find it in herself to re-gain her comfort with sex. Some of this is likely also due to physical and mental things from outside the relationship that are squashing her libido. Maybe as she sorts through those things on her own (with me giving her the space to do that), some of those issues will improve and her libido will bounce back a bit. But unless the pressure she feels about sex from within the relationship subsides, it won't really matter much what goes on with those other factors.

One thing that stood out in my mind was what she said when I said that I wanted to feel like I was being chased by her, at least every once in a while. She told me that if I wanted that, I have to leave her alone. It seems that even when I'm not being overtly sexual, my actions convey to her that I'm in pursuit. And that leaves her feeling like there's no room for her to maneuver.

So, while I occasionally show her some spontaneous affection (there's no reason to treat her like a neglecting spouse), it's very limited and doesn't come with any big build-up or suggestion that it's supposed to lead to anything. I'm letting her come to me. It's definitely working. Since I've taken up this approach, she's been more affectionate and attentive in very genuine ways that are making me feel good about the overall prospects for us. On Monday, she was pretty crabby when she woke up and took it out on me a bit. Nothing serious, though, so I didn't think much of it and went about the rest of my day. Later on, when I checked the messages on my cell, I found she had left a "thinking of you", "sorry for being so crabby, shouldn't have treated you like that" message. It was probably the nicest message she's left me in years. She's gone out of her way the last few nights to spend time laying with me on the couch or in bed, just hanging out. And despite clearly being cranky again this morning, after I gave her some time and space to work it out on her own, she was very communicative and affectionate with me before I left for work. She's also made multiple remarks the last few days about how good-looking and fit she thinks I am. 

In some ways, it seems pretty odd to me that she's being affectionate and commenting on my looks, but not really showing any sign that she wants to hit the sheets. But, I think there's so much going on here and so much she needs to unravel and shed on her side when it comes to how things have gone between us for so long with sex, that I can see how there isn't a quick path from where we're at now to getting our sex life back on track. Before, I think both of us (especially me, though) got ahead of ourselves with the progress that had been made and thought we were further along the way than we really were. I'm now firmly committed to not trying to initiate again until either she directly initiates first or we "fall into" having sex by having something naturally escalate on its own between us. I can't wait forever for that to happen, but there's no reason to get frustrated or impatient now considering that she is responding in other ways and that lots of other things between us have improved. I figure, she's not going to respond positively to my advances until she feels better about things, so just let her take the lead on letting me know when that happens.


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## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> It seems that even when I'm not being overtly sexual, my actions convey to her that I'm in pursuit.
> 
> So, while I occasionally show her some spontaneous affection (there's no reason to treat her like a neglecting spouse), it's very limited and doesn't come with any big build-up or suggestion that it's supposed to lead to anything.
> 
> I figure, she's not going to respond positively to my advances until she feels better about things, so just let her take the lead on letting me know when that happens.


1. Do you use sex as a means of validating that your relationship is OK?

2. How much of your sex drive is trying to find a release for anxious energy and how much is "drive"?

3. How about having a sex moratorium for a few months? You are already one into it. Just tell the wife, with love, that given all the stress, you want to take it off the table until August.

The reasons to have a moratorium are several fold:

- prove to yourself and your wife that you can get along just fine without sex

- prove that you will not be controlled by sex

- reset the balance of power

You don't do a moratorium with the hope that the wife will come begging for it.

Keep up the hard work.:smthumbup:


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## Tigerman

FNG:

It usually starts out as just "drive", but repeated denial or delay (even for perfectly understandable reasons) ends up kicking in the anxiety and validation stuff. Then it just builds from there. I'm consciously working very hard to keep that in check. I'm having better results now than before, but I still have to deal with the effects of my previous moments of weakness.

As for the moratorium, my wife would react badly to me saying that we're not having sex until such-and-such time for such-and-such reason. Putting that sort of deadline or structure around it would just add to the pressure she feels. I know this from things we've talked about over the last few months. So, what I'll do instead is just approach things as though the moratorium is in place, but with the flexibility to respond positively to her if she feels like taking the initiative.

On the other hand, I'm beginning to realize that as much I've been focusing on myself, which has also made things better in the relationship, we're not going to get over the hump as a couple until my wife takes care of some things on her side of the street. Besides the grief she's still dealing with, she's also frustrated and bored with her current work situation. She's also feeling overwhelmed by parenting stuff, mainly because one of our children is emotionally demanding right now and my wife's approach to parenting is to tap into the kids' emotional needs and work hard to address them. This leaves her exhausted and frazzled much of the time, and she deals with that by walling herself off from everyone (well, mostly me) for long periods of time in order to re-energize. Which means, not only is she not feeling sexual, she can be just not fun to be around. All too often, my attempts at light-hearted banter or playfulness end up being coolly received or even aggravating her, because she's just too shelled to enjoy them. She's doing a great job as a mom and the kids will really benefit from what they are getting from the complementary approaches they get from us. But it's making her not such a great wife a good deal of the time. 

Obviously, I can't change her. I can't even make her want to either change herself or come up with effective ways of handling all the difficult stuff she's feeling. All I can do is work on myself and give her the space and support she needs to sort things out on her end. If she ever wants my help or input, she knows very well that I'm there for her. So, for now, I'm working on continuing to fix up my end of things while letting her find her own way. That's not giving up on her or putting her out of my mind, but just not making the situation worse by trying to do the impossible.


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## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> As for the moratorium, my wife would react badly to me saying that we're not having sex until such-and-such time for such-and-such reason. Putting that sort of deadline or structure around it would just add to the pressure she feels. I know this from things we've talked about over the last few months. So, what I'll do instead is just approach things as though the moratorium is in place, but with the flexibility to respond positively to her if she feels like taking the initiative.


When I first read this, it raised a few red flags for me. Ultimately, you are there with all the facts and know your wife, so I am working from the assumption that yours is a good decision.

My only comment is to consider if you have truly detached the emotional hose if you are this concerned about her reaction.



Tigerman said:


> On the other hand, I'm beginning to realize that as much I've been focusing on myself, which has also made things better in the relationship, we're not going to get over the hump as a couple until my wife takes care of some things on her side of the street.


This is excellent. Preaching to the choir here, but the healthier you become, the harder it will be for her to avoid dealing with her stuff. The elephants get increasingly hard to ignore.



Tigerman said:


> ..... my wife's approach to parenting is to tap into the kids' emotional needs and work hard to address them.


This is the female version of being a nice guy. Do a Google search for "Love and Logic" as a parenting philosophy. I think their program is very healthy from a psychological point of view. The approach might help your wife do a better job of achieving healthy separation from your children.

You sound great - keep it up.


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## Tigerman

FNG:

With the moratorium, it's not simply that it would bother my wife. It would create more pressure on her. That's still basing my actions on how she'll react, but it's more a matter of recognizing that something would be counter-productive rather than wanting to please her. I wish she wouldn't so easily take things like this as adding pressure to her regarding sex, but if she weren't like that, our situation would probably be better than it is (obviously, there are also things on my end that, if they had been different, our situation would be better). I can't control that, but I can acknowledge it and work with it.

It's funny that you likened her parenting style to the NG approach for men. I had a similar thought, once I read NMMNG and understood the perils of the emotional hose. This parenting style is a deliberate choice on her part and she really believes in it. I think it's excessive, but I also see the value of using it in more limited doses. I'm thinking this is one of those things where she might just have to recognize on her own just how severe the costs to her are before she decides to alter things. I've already tried to talk to her about those costs and she's made it clear that right now she's willing to pay those costs. Given some of the details of her childhood, I can see why it's so important to her that the kids feel like their feelings are recognized and taken seriously. However, apart from the effects on our relationship, I think those costs are really taking a toll on other parts of her life, too. While I think there's plenty of room for things to get better between us, the parenting stuff seems like it lowers the upper boundary of how good things can be.

Thanks for the feedback and encouragement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> That's still basing my actions on how she'll react, but it's more a matter of recognizing that something would be counter-productive rather than wanting to please her.


The hard-a$$ in me says this is a rationalization, but this may be _*me* _reacting.

With my wife, when I detached the hose, she initially resented me for my past smothering behavior and things got harder for a while. I stayed the course and she found the space liberating and got to a much better place.

You will know with time and your own growth whether you have to step backwards (meaning stronger confrontation) before you move forward. 



Tigerman said:


> This parenting style is a deliberate choice on her part and she really believes in it. I think it's excessive, but I also see the value of using it in more limited doses. I'm thinking this is one of those things where she might just have to recognize on her own _*just how severe*_ the costs to her are before she decides to alter things.


This is a tough one. 

Looking through the NG "hose" lens makes it clear how we transmit our thoughts, beliefs, fears, phobias to our children.

Kids are born completely dependent. The mother/child relationship is a perfect example of hose connecting. Children don't know how to respond to a situation, so they look to mom (and to a lesser degree dad) to assess. Makes sense. Mom smiles - all is good and little John quickly moves forward. Mom frowns and the process evolves differently.

This is relatively easy when children are infants and even toddlers. Their problems are the parents problems - complete symbiosis. The challenge becomes that the amount of connection is constantly changing. We get in to troubles (moms particularly, but dads too) when we don't let the children set the lead for how connected they want us to be.

Doc G also talks about attachments in NMMNG. I think attachments are involved here. Moms get attached to being the "support system" for their children and the identity that taking care of another human gives them. They resent the child differentiating in toddlerhood - the "terrible two's". Many parents work hard to keep the hose attached during this period when the kid is clearly saying he wants it partially detached.

Parents who are attached to their roles as parents fight the kids until the kids leave home. Most actions are not taken for the benefit of the child, but rather in response to ego triggers of the parent. The kid finally leaves and is either sufficiently worn down (the power of boot camp) to behave appropriately until a midlife crisis (or another adult crisis such as an affair, divorce, child on drugs) or completely rebels against the system.

I mentioned "Love and Logic" in the last post. In a nutshell, the philosophy says "let kids grow and learn to be responsible by making mistakes and learning from the consequences from a very early age." Why? Because a "C" in 3rd grade doesn't count. A "C" in college can be meaningful. This way, by the time they are teenagers and young adults, they will make wise decisions based on a lifetime of experiencing first hand the consequences from "bad choices". Contrast this to a kid who rebels out of resentment for a childhood of being told what to do or worse, having no idea how to make a wise choice on their own because their lives were run for them by their parents. Think about the stereotype of the "preacher's daughter" who is a wild child in college.

Since a child's problem is not the parent's problem, there is no reason for a parent to react to a kid's failures. "I am disappointed" (parental shame and judgement) becomes "Oh wow, that is unfortunate, how do you feel about that?" (sincere parental empathy). Children want to do well and want to please, so a response like "What do you think you can do about it to get a different result" is appropriate. With this small "failure" comes a teaching moment. There are a thousand examples, but hopefully, between NMMNG and this limited description, you get the idea of hose disconnected parenting. I think of myself as "chief safety officer" - if it doesn't involve death or permanent disfigurement of my kid or another human being - I let them learn themselves.

FWIW, we are doing this with our kids (homework, school projects, practicing musical instruments, sports) and they are thriving. Lots of self-esteem and they are both developing gifts into extraordinary talents.

Back to your wife. Based on what you have written, it sounds like your wife is parenting based on a trigger from childhood. She is hell-bent on doing it better than was done for her.

This is all well and good, but the stress of trying to be perfect makes her wildly sensitive to everything around parenting and your children's behaviors and moods. This is an exhausting place to live. 

She is completely attached to your children emotionally and it sounds like she may resent a part of it. Parents don't get a break with little kids and have to suppress their own needs often. Once the kids get bigger, though, letting go really frees the parent up to become a human being again. While a parent can't make a choice with an infant, your wife likely has more choices today. My wife and I had to work hard to see that what we considered "good parenting" was smothering and actually selfish behavior rather than selfless. Sound familiar?

Resentment and anger are usually reactions to feeling powerless. Of course, your wife has the power to disconnect somewhat, but is not seeing the choice she is making.

I started with "this is tough." You are on the right path, so keep at it.

Warmly, FNG (with material assistance from Wife of FNG)


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## Tigerman

FNG:

Thanks again to you (and your wife). Lots of good food for thought here. What you say about the resentment for past smothering behavior is especially helpful in thinking about her up-and-down response to the backing off I've already done and for gauging expectations about things going forward.

Accountability time. I woke up seriously anxious this morning and feeling needy for reassurance affection. This is the worst I've felt it in a good while. I overpursued at first and it was clear that my wife wasn't biting. She wasn't angry and we didn't end up in an argument, but she made it clear that this is one of those mornings when she needed a lot of space. I copped to be anxious, told her that I didn't want to smother her (in different words), backed off, and the situation passed. I have a solo activity planned for the late afternoon and early evening, but I'm going to try to come up with something else to keep me occupied for much of the time before that, too. I need the space and it would be good to clearly indicate to her that I'm not in pursuit mode.

One thing that is helpful for me in dealing with the anxiety is asking myself to consider what the realistic outcome is, if I indulge the anxiety. She's not going to respond positively to that kind of stuff and I'll just feel worse for having given in. So, there's no point to it. That didn't work as well as it usually does this morning, but it did help me stop digging myself a deeper hole. I have to keep the long game in mind here and realize that short term fixes (reassurances) either won't work or will undermine my bigger priorities, when it comes to both myself and the relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> Accountability time. I woke up seriously anxious this morning and feeling needy for reassurance affection.


I hate those kind of days - good news is that they become less and less frequent. 

Awareness is a huge part of the battle. Then it is just a battle of wills to take productive action as opposed to what your dysfunctional self keeps telling you will make you feel better.

I may have mentioned this, but The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle will be helpful at some point. In a nutshell - you can't control the future and the past is gone so there is not any sense in being anywhere other than the present moment. This translates into "get out of your head" and into the moment.

This is exactly what you did when you observed your own anxious behavior.


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## Tigerman

Going back over one of my recent posts and thinking about some events from the last few days, I've recognized something that I think is the cause of a good deal of my anxiety. Putting aside the times when the stress really kicks in and shuts her down, my wife and I are affectionate with each other: kisses, hugs, saying ILY, touches, playful banter, and things like that. Overall, the initiation seems pretty balanced between us. I could stand to have those things occur even more frequently than they do, but it all seems pretty healthy to me as it is. We're definitely not living just as roommates.

What she's not is passionate. The kisses aren't chaste, but they also don't have a clear sexual intent. The touching doesn't escalate to groping. And so forth. For me, it's natural that affectionate behavior is often that and that alone (and I very much like that), but it seems odd and confusing that it never develops in a passionate way. This confusion really throws me off at times, as it's unlike anything I've ever encountered in a relationship before. With the kind of mind I have, I can't help but want to figure this out. That sort of curiosity and desire to understand can be great, but it can also drive me nuts and make me feel very frustrated when I can't put all the pieces of the puzzle together. And those feelings are a perfect breeding ground for anxiety.

My sense is that between her depressed libido and the pressure she's still feeling about sex, she's on guard against letting things get passionate or simply doesn't have that software currently running. But, unless I'm inflating the significance of the affection, she's still feeling very much connected to me and wants to be close to me. She just can't go a certain direction with that right now. Hopefully, she gets that back (sooner rather than later would be nice, too, but I don't want to be greedy). But, I have two worries that conspire to unnecessarily ratchet up my feelings of anxiety. One is that the affection from her is just an act or is really not romantic in nature. While I do end up entertaining this possibility sometimes, it seems pretty clearly mistaken. Her affectionate behavior strongly comes across as sincere and enjoyable to her. And, while it's not like these acts are lustful, they're also not just friendly. The other worry is that it is sincere and she wants to have more of a physical connection, too (which she has said before) but we might never get there for whatever reasons. This seems more deserving of being taken seriously, but it's something that only time will tell about and it's not the sort of thing I can control, anyway.

It's good that I've recognized this, as it allows me to better think about what is and isn't going on between us right now. The more I consciously keep this in mind, I should be less prone to indulge my anxiety about the current lack of passion. It seems that this is the kind of thing that could be a normal phase in a relationship (although it's new to me), even for couples who haven't gone through all the conflict and heavy talks that we've had the last few months. Between all the upheaval of the last few months and the tough times that preceded all that, it's probably a good sign that we have the level of affection we do. Hopefully, it's something that some more passionate feelings can grow out of, as we have a more prolonged period of peace between us, I continue to work on myself and turn down the temperature from my side, and maybe the wife deals with some things on her end. 

Is this sort of dynamic to be expected at this point? I've heard various estimates about it taking X number of months to get past Y years of dysfunction. Such estimates are probably best taken with a boulder of salt, but it seems correct that it could be some time before all the damage of the last few years is undone. I'm not looking for a guarantee that things will get better within such-and-such period of time or that they're sure to get better at all. I'm more interested in how things have worked out for others who have been through similar circumstances, when it comes to what's come back and what hasn't come back, and the time course of the things that did return. Having that sort of information might be helpful to reducing the confusion and frustration I'm feeling.


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## Tigerman

I've been doing this wrong. Some recent events (some involving my wife or kids, others outside the home) have made clear that I've only been papering over the effects of having the emotional hose largely still in place and talking a good game to myself about manning up, rather than actually detaching the hose and getting my own stuff in order. I have made some genuine improvements to myself, but they're very limited compared to where I want to really be. Time to get back to work on me. At least I have a sense of how easy it is to fall into thinking that I'm purging myself of NG traits when I'm actually not getting all that much done.


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## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> I've been doing this wrong.


Probably less so than you are thinking. Remember that nice guys have a need to do everything perfectly. Nothing is perfect. From what you write, you are doing great directionally. 

Just keep at it.


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## Tigerman

Thanks for the further encouragement. Perfectionism is an issue with me and it probably has me working against myself a bit here.

On the other hand, I'm feeling overwhelmed by the challenge currently on my plate. My wife is one of those women who, in response to a period of extreme stress, goes deep into a shell for a while. She gets totally withdrawn, hyper-defensive, snappy and negative in response to anything that's said to her, and is very critical of where she is in her life. Her mother also had these episodes and they clearly affected my wife badly. Unlike her mother, my wife manages to hold it together pretty well for the kids during these times, although she also gets short with them at points. The kids, especially the oldest, definitely sense that something's wrong with her at these times. Of course, she also manages to put on a good face for the outside world, so that nothing seems amiss. Basically, I end up being ground zero for these episodes. It's more than a bit frustrating to see her having a real conversation with some friend of ours or engaging with one of our kids, only to have her button up or lash out when I try to connect with her in the most minimal way. When I've mentioned this to her, she's told me that when she's in one of these spells, that other stuff is just an act and inside she's dying to just be alone. Which is why, once she's finished with her obligations for the day, she completely withdraws. Since that's the time we'd have together, I lose out. Plus, our time together is usually physically or emotionally close in some way, but that's the last thing she feels like doing at those times. 

One of these episodes kicked in heading into the weekend (this also coincided with her period; they don't always go together, but the worst ones happen during her period). I've not handled it as well as I would have liked. When I realized she was sliding into one of these funks - which takes a day or two to get into full swing, has a terrible trough of about a day or two, and has a lingering residue of depression and moroseness for days beyond that - I backed off and gave her space: limited conversation, minimal affection, things like that. Turns out, though, that what she needs is solitude, not just space. I was feeling anxious as this was building up and by the time she was at her low point on Saturday, I was feeling awful. These spells are a really strange phenomenon for me, as no one in my family nor anyone else I've ever known has had them. So, it's not surprising that I'd feel some anxiety or a bit unsettled from this. But if the emotional hose had been detached, I would not have felt things this strongly. 

I won't get into the details of everything that happened, but I definitely plugged into her awful feelings at two points, once on Saturday night and once this morning. Those acts made things worse, both for her and for me. What makes me really mad is that those two acts of plugging in were just momentary weaknesses, while the rest of the time I was doing well with being aware of how I was being affected but not letting it take control of me. Neither act was awful, aggressive, or some big "please show me some love" nonsense, but each made it clear that her feelings strongly affected how I feel. I was definitely looking for reassurance that her episode wasn't about me, even though I knew full well that it wasn't about me. That's not good for me, at all. Plus, it only reinforces negative feelings she has about herself (stemming from similarities she sees between herself and her mother) about being some weak, pathetic creature who is bringing down the entire family. So, everybody was worse off. 

My guess is that, since things had improved a bit by the end of yesterday, things will continue to gradually improve and be back to normal by the end of the week. On the one hand, I know I could have made this situation less awful, for both my wife and me, simply by not giving into those feelings. It still would have been bad, and maybe for the same amount of time, but I deeply regret giving in, just for what it means about where I'm at. And I want to be supportive and understanding while she's going through such a rough time. On the other hand, this situation is pretty lousy for me and it's hard to expect anyone to not be affected by an extended period of emotional misery and physical disconnect like that. I managed to stay productively busy much of the time, but with young kids, I can't just fly the coop for a few days until the wife gets herself together again. So, I was around enough to get a pretty steady diet of unpleasantness. And that eventually cranked up the anxiety beyond a point I could withstand. Since I'm sure there's another one of these bouts lurking not too far in the future, I hope I manage to not buckle at all when this comes around again.


----------



## Tigerman

I'm now convinced that I'm up against something pretty difficult here. This past weekend, we end up having a talk about the relationship. In the midst of it, she blurts out that she loves me and finds me attractive, but she doesn't "swoon" for me. That gets my attention and I immediately follow up on it. She clarifies that there's no one else she swoons for or wants to swoon for, either. Moreover, right now she doesn't feel anything romantic or sexual at all. It's not that she's LD. She has no drive at all. Nothing. Doesn't miss it. It's not because of anything I'm doing or not doing when we do have sex, or anything like that. It's just not there for her. She feels guilty and broken about being this way, but all that does is make it worse, rather than push her to do something about the situation. Okay, that's a kick to the gut, but I do believe her and, based on everything else she said and how she said it, I don't think this was her way of saying ILYBINILWY. 

I press her a bit on this, as I'm genuinely confused about a lot of her behavior. If she doesn't have those kinds of swoony feelings for me, why is she usually the first one to say ILY? Why does she so clearly want my approval about things she does or says? What I focus on in the conversation is why she gets anxious and starts chasing me when I sharply turn down the temperature. Her pursuit doesn't turn out to be lustful, but it definitely involves the sort of affection that caring, loving partners show each other. That just doesn't make sense to me, if she's not really into me at some level. She admits that she does that and says that she does love me and wants to be affectionate with me. It just doesn't feel good or comfortable for it to go beyond a certain point. Basically it sounds like she wants me to be close, but not too close. She also says that she feels this pressure of everything being up to her, like everything with me is just waiting on her to give the signal that her libido is improving. While that was certainly true in the past and I am very much hoping that her libido does bounce back, I've actually been very good the last few weeks at not having a sexual angle to things, at just letting things be, and not reminding her about how unhappy I am with our sex life. I think she's still responding to the past and hasn't yet adapted to how things have been. I can understand that, considering how long things were that way before.

Unlike past R talks, which could go on for hours because one or the other of us just can't let up, this one's over in 15 minutes. I think this was good, because it limited the emotional battering that each of us takes from going over the same painful stuff in gory detail. She goes off to read in bed and I'm cable surfing on the couch. Later, I go into the bedroom to get a book off my nightstand to read on the couch. She quickly approaches me to tell me that she loves me, is sorry there's stress between us, and we hug and kiss a bit. Nice stuff. There's not much more to the evening after that, as she soon falls asleep and I go off to read for a bit.

On Sunday, once I wake up, she's on me quickly. Sits down on my lap on the couch and nuzzles in. Kisses me, rubs my head and shoulders, says ILY a few times, etc. I play it cool throughout the day and give her the chance to take the lead with initiating things. Multiple times during the rest of the day, she initiates affection. It's clearly not an act and it feels nice. I very much like it for what it is, but it's also frustrating to know that at no point will it blossom into something passionate. As we're laying in bed before falling asleep, it's more of the same. I was actually getting pretty worked up from the touching and kissing, but I kept it under control because I didn't want to feel any temptation to try to push things further. 

At this point, my plan is to keep my temperature set very low for the foreseeable future. I'll give her an occasional kiss or a light touch, or once in a while say ILY first. But any more serious affection will have to be initiated by her. And I'll send off more of an "I don't need you" (but not an "I don't want you") vibe, which she also seems to respond to. Maybe things will build gradually, if I put this all in her court. It really is amazing how throughout all of this, she reliably responds to me turning my temperature down very low. In the past, her pursuit of me has led me to gradually raise the temperature on my end. When I've done that, she's dialed things back down pretty quickly. As unnatural as it feels to me, I can't take her pursuit as a sign that things are getting better enough that I can warm up a bit and start initiating more. Maybe she just needs to feel like she's in charge and needs the freedom to ratchet things up at her own pace and to get comfortable with each higher notch on her own thermostat. Given what I know about her, that might really be the case. Who knows how long it might take for it to ratchet up high enough for our sex life to get going again or whether there'll be any room for me to share in the taking charge at that point. But I sure don't have anything to lose in trying this out, given how things are right now.


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## Conrad

What was her childhood like?


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## Tigerman

Her father had a pretty explosive temper and clearly resented his wife. Overall, while he had his way of being loving toward his children, he scared the heck out of them. He's calmed down a lot, but my wife is the only one of the kids who still has a relationship with him and things usually aren't that close between her and him. Her mother was often cold and distant, which provoked great sadness and loneliness in my W. This accounts for my wife's approach to parenting that I described earlier; she doesn't want our kids to ever feel like she did. My MIL clearly loved my W, but often shut out everything and everyone. Hence my FIL's resentment. My MIL had a pretty sad childhood and it definitely affected her the rest of her life. I think depression runs in both sides. My W is very aware of what she's repeating from her childhood. Unfortunately, when it comes to our relationship, that tends to fill her with the sort of shame and dread that paralyzes her, rather than pushing her to work hard against it.

Yes, I realize this might explain a lot of the current situation, especially considering how I was before I started working on me. I think one of the side benefits of what I've done with myself is to show her that I'm not like her dad (or mine, either). But I also doubt that has fully sunk in with her yet, although she seems to have some awareness of that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> I think one of the side benefits of what I've done with myself is to show her that I'm not like her dad (or mine, either). But I also doubt that has fully sunk in with her yet, although she seems to have some awareness of that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Tigerman, this whole thing is a misdirection play by your wife. Ignore it.

Hard to do? Yes, but you need to turn your amygdala off. It is telling you that your are in danger, but there is likely none and even if there is, you don't control the source of danger (your wife).

She is testing you to see how confident this new guy really is. Not consciously, but subconsciously. Look at her actions, not her words. Her actions are of a woman who is "swooning" over her man. The words are B.S.

Good that you kept the conversation short.

Don't punish her. Do you love her? Then carry on. I know it is hard to not be self-conscious, but adopt the "cancel, cancel" mantra with respect to your own self-doubt, keep swaggering (taking good care of yourself) and reinforce the connection. You need to respond to her. Remember, you have enough inner confidence to risk being hurt.

Although it is a bad idea to try and fix your wife, you might get some comfort (and learn something about yourself) out of reading "Facing Love Addiction" by Pia Mellody. She talks about being "love addicted" and "love avoidant" - two sides of the same coin. Both fear abandonment. Your wife sounds like she is biased towards love avoidant.

Cancel, cancel, cancel. You can handle it.


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## Conrad

Tigerman said:


> Her father had a pretty explosive temper and clearly resented his wife. Overall, while he had his way of being loving toward his children, he scared the heck out of them. He's calmed down a lot, but my wife is the only one of the kids who still has a relationship with him and things usually aren't that close between her and him. Her mother was often cold and distant, which provoked great sadness and loneliness in my W. This accounts for my wife's approach to parenting that I described earlier; she doesn't want our kids to ever feel like she did. My MIL clearly loved my W, but often shut out everything and everyone. Hence my FIL's resentment. My MIL had a pretty sad childhood and it definitely affected her the rest of her life. I think depression runs in both sides. My W is very aware of what she's repeating from her childhood. Unfortunately, when it comes to our relationship, that tends to fill her with the sort of shame and dread that paralyzes her, rather than pushing her to work hard against it.
> 
> Yes, I realize this might explain a lot of the current situation, especially considering how I was before I started working on me. I think one of the side benefits of what I've done with myself is to show her that I'm not like her dad (or mine, either). But I also doubt that has fully sunk in with her yet, although she seems to have some awareness of that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Emotionally broken people usually suffer from some combination of PTSD and a personality disorder.

This makes it extraordinarily difficult for them to take responsibility for their actions (which leads to blameshifting) as they are literally afraid of harsh punishment if admitting a mistake. Their right brain/subconscious warns them that harsh punishment is coming - as it often has when they've screwed up.

All her relationships will be this way until she addresses it.

Deep down she is likely very angry.

And, you are the recipient of those emotions. The anger "understudy" who now plays a leading role.

One of the most difficult parts about fixing yourself is that it often isn't "all there is to do".


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## Tigerman

Conrad:

You're on target with what you say. There is an underlying anger to my wife that explodes to the surface when she's pushed into uncomfortable territory. Plus, my wife has admitted multiple times to always being afraid of getting in trouble because of her childhood. Besides preventing her from sticking her neck out at important moments, it's definitely led to serious blame-shifting on her part. Some of our worst arguments, including a few that have almost finished us, have come from that fear-driven blame-shifting. Most of the issues she's done this blame-shifting about are very minor and life would have been a whole lot easier if she just dealt with the actual issue, rather than sending things careening off in some other direction to try to put the blame on me. [In fact, I can't think of a very serious problem we've ever had that started as a big problem. It's almost always been something relatively small or ridiculous that gets blown up into a disaster that didn't need to happen.] I have always had a strong commitment to owning one's mistakes and accepting whatever fallout comes from having screwed up. I've done a lot of stupid stuff in my life, but I've been willing to cop to it and take a beating (figuratively or literally) when it's called for. I hold others to the same standard. So, that sort of blame-shifting, especially when it's done with so much anger behind it and in situations in which she's clearly saying pretty much anything she has to in order to escape the consequences of what she's said or done (or, even more commonly, so that she doesn't have to admit certain bad feelings she has about herself), would just set me off about as bad as anything could. It really feels like a betrayal when it happens. 

There definitely is nothing I can do to change this about her, no matter how much work I do on myself. I am a lot more aware of this blame-shifting and am less likely to fall into arguments with her when she moves into this mode. Over the years, I've found that directly calling her on it only makes her explode worse. The times I've dealt with it best have been when I've told her that the discussion is over and I refuse to engage any more, and have just walked away. I have no stomach for being a target of that kind of misdirected anger.


FNG:

I suspect you're probably right in what you say, too. I don't know if it's a test of where I'm at now, but I agree that what she says about not swooning and some of her behaviors stem from a desire/need on her part to avoid dealing with heavy feelings. I'd bet that's all part of the mess of stuff Conrad highlighted. 

I'm going to continue responding to her as I have been, but I think for now I need to keep the temperature lower on my side when it comes to initiating things. Maybe it doesn't need to be kept quite as low as I've recently set it, but I do think it's good for her to have the room to take the lead for a while and see where that goes. It's definitely important that I respond to her efforts, though, so that it reinforces those behaviors.

I love her and very much want things to work. I don't suffer from some "she's the only one" delusion and my patience isn't eternal. But once things get outside the zone where her issues kick in, she's a very high quality woman and presents a unique package of strengths. I'm willing to take the chance that things won't work and that my efforts to re-build the connection with her will fail, but I'm not really worried any more about getting hurt. One of the things I've gotten pretty good at is reminding myself that I'm going to be fine no matter how things go with my marriage. It would be a damn shame for it to not work out, as I do think we could have a really great life together. But I can't make that happen by myself.


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## Conrad

Tigerman said:


> Conrad:
> 
> You're on target with what you say. There is an underlying anger to my wife that explodes to the surface when she's pushed into uncomfortable territory. Plus, my wife has admitted multiple times to always being afraid of getting in trouble because of her childhood. Besides preventing her from sticking her neck out at important moments, it's definitely led to serious blame-shifting on her part. Some of our worst arguments, including a few that have almost finished us, have come from that fear-driven blame-shifting. Most of the issues she's done this blame-shifting about are very minor and life would have been a whole lot easier if she just dealt with the actual issue, rather than sending things careening off in some other direction to try to put the blame on me. [In fact, I can't think of a very serious problem we've ever had that started as a big problem. It's almost always been something relatively small or ridiculous that gets blown up into a disaster that didn't need to happen.] I have always had a strong commitment to owning one's mistakes and accepting whatever fallout comes from having screwed up. I've done a lot of stupid stuff in my life, but I've been willing to cop to it and take a beating (figuratively or literally) when it's called for. I hold others to the same standard. So, that sort of blame-shifting, especially when it's done with so much anger behind it and in situations in which she's clearly saying pretty much anything she has to in order to escape the consequences of what she's said or done (or, even more commonly, so that she doesn't have to admit certain bad feelings she has about herself), would just set me off about as bad as anything could. It really feels like a betrayal when it happens.
> 
> There definitely is nothing I can do to change this about her, no matter how much work I do on myself. I am a lot more aware of this blame-shifting and am less likely to fall into arguments with her when she moves into this mode. Over the years, I've found that directly calling her on it only makes her explode worse. The times I've dealt with it best have been when I've told her that the discussion is over and I refuse to engage any more, and have just walked away. I have no stomach for being a target of that kind of misdirected anger.


T-Man,

Just make sure you separate standing up for yourself from anger. All that does is escalate.

Make her own her own chaos.

All you tell her is what you are and are not ok with.

Seriously, "I'm not ok with that kind of treatment"

And, you leave it there.

Let her fight with herself.

The beauty is, you don't have to "convince" her why you "should not" be ok with that.

As a no longer "nice guy" you no longer require her sign-off for your feelings and convictions.

They simply are what they are.


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## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> I need to keep the temperature lower on my side when it comes to initiating things. Maybe it doesn't need to be kept quite as low as I've recently set it, but I do think it's good for her to have the room to take the lead for a while and see where that goes. It's definitely important that I respond to her efforts, though, so that it reinforces those behaviors.


I think Conrad is right about setting firm boundaries. You can't take the bait and engage.

Beyond that, I think it is a waste of time to devote mental energy to understanding/fixing your wife and her issues. That is her job and you have enough to do on your end.

My main concern about your quote above is that you still seem very focused on her and her mood. The fact that you took the conversation and her comments so seriously makes it look to me like you are still being triggered.

Is the hose still attached?

Detaching the hose ties neatly into the boundary setting - let her spin by herself, while you calmly stay grounded and centered. There is also a big difference between smothering (which us NG's have a way of doing, particularly when we need reassurance) and tiptoeing around.

By the way, who initiated the conversation? If it was you, were you looking for reassurance?


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## Drover

It's so close to my situation that I could have written your post. She's working through issues. The problem was that in the meantime I was going nuts. 

I finally declared a sexual moratorium the other day. No sex for a set amount of time. It's plenty of time for her to work through her issues. She doesn't know how long it is so there's no date she sees coming that provides pressure for her. It allows me to be affectionate, and for her to enjoy my affection without feeling the pressure that I'm after sex. I gets rid of the open-ended timeframe for her fixing her issues that was driving me nuts.

Mostly what it does is make it MY decision, not hers. It puts me in control, not her. It really feels so much better.


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## Tigerman

I initiated the conversation. It was in response to a fit she started to throw. Basically, she immediately got stressed out when I asked her if she had ten seconds for one big passionate kiss (I figured I'd give that trick from MMSL a spin, just for fun). My thinking was the kiss probably wouldn't lead to sex, but if it did, great. If not, it would be a nice burst of intense affection that would have been great on its own. She balked and went right into full-on "I don't feel like having sex tonight" mode, with an agitated tone of voice and the insinuation that she's some sort of victim in all this. I calmly tried to explain to her that sex wasn't really what I was directly after, although I admitted that it wasn't too far from my mind, either. And then I said I was still interested in having that ten seconds with her. Since she can't admit that she screwed up or overreacted (see Conrad's post above), she ups the ante and says she doesn't feel like being passionate at all, even for ten seconds. Then she said something about all the pressure she feels from me just waiting around for her to give the green light. I tried to explain to her that I don't just sit around waiting for her to give the green light and that I found it insulting that she thinks that's how I spend my time. In response to that, I got a small lecture on the difference between how I perceive things and how she perceives things. From there, I pushed to try to address what was going on. She didn't want to have the talk, but I felt like since she had opened the can of worms, I was going to get some answers about what was behind these not-infrequent overreactions. I kept the talk focused and made sure to end it quickly, rather than allowing it to cycle back over all the same painful stuff.

In retrospect, I would have been better served by simply saying that I didn't appreciate her overreaction and that she's got the wrong impression of me when it comes to that waiting around stuff. I should have followed that up with a wisecrack about going on to do something else that she'll probably interpret as a time-filler until she gives me the green light. And then I should have left her to spin on her own. 

I definitely still need to work on letting her deal with her things on her own and not letting that stuff enter my thinking. It is making me a bit nuts at times, because I'm not always clear what's really driving my behavior. If I do X, I can just as easily tell myself a story that it's because I really wanted to do X for me as I can that it's because I'm looking for (or to avoid) a certain response from her based on her issues. I think what I need to do is just act. So long as it's not coming from an obvious place of validation-seeking, I shouldn't over-think things beyond that. I tend to be highly analytical and this sort of retrospective hyper-scrutiny of my motivations is one place where that trait is unhelpful. It definitely undermines my confidence in myself and has led to some rubbish validation-seeking behavior in the past when I've convinced myself that I acted for a bad reason and got anxious about it.

In connection with that, I have to quiet the information-seeking part of my brain. As badly as I might want to know exactly what's going on on her end, until she works on them, I'm not going to understand her issues any better than I do now. And I sure can't do anything to fix those issues for her, even if I understood them perfectly. So, it's not going to do me any good to mull them over.

Having just said that, I think it is helpful for me to keep in mind that she has both the emotional issues Conrad highlighted and a nerfed libido (which is likely due to a combination of stress, hormones, and those emotional issues). I love her and I am genuinely concerned for her well-being. And I know the lack of libido and my unhappiness with our sex life eats at her and makes her feel worse. This isn't a woman who is doing to me the awful things I read about on this forum or hear about other places. And while there's an important way in which we're not connected now, there is a healthy connection in the rest of our relationship. So, while I want to do a better job keeping my focus on what I need to do to work on myself, I don't want to lose (or give the appearance that I've lost) my concern for her emotions and well-being. While it's a hard trick to pull off, I just can't let the latter interfere with the former.

Lastly, I know the moratorium has been advocated before and Drover just brought it up. I'm giving it more thought. I'm still not sure that it's right for my situation, but I'm not ruling it out, either.


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## Conrad

Never ask for the kiss.

Take it.

Just make certain this "concern for her well-being" doesn't involve nicing up in the face of her bad behavior.


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## Tigerman

Conrad:

Good advice, as usual, on all counts. I'm aware of the risk that the concern for her could lead to more NG behavior, if I'm not careful. So, I'm going to be on the lookout for it. So long as I stay away from doing things that are aimed at anticipating what she's feeling or achieving particular outcomes when it comes to her well-being, I should be okay. I don't want to walk on eggshells with her, but I also don't want to turn into a bull in a china shop, either.


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## Conrad

There's an old saying or two worth repeating.

"Patience is a virtue"

another

"Moderation in all things"

What the authors of these truths never told us is that these ancients truths are ONLY true if we're on the right path.

Being "patient" while displaying "niceguy" behavior is a one-way ticket to emotional hell.


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## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> I don't want to walk on eggshells with her, but I also don't want to turn into a bull in a china shop, either.


Are you scared to piss her off?

Given her last response to your kiss, I think you should really consider the moratorium. The fact that you have to think so hard about doing something as simple as giving your wife a kiss is a huge red flag for me.


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## Tigerman

The moratorium is in place. That happened the night of my last post in this thread. I didn't handle it particularly well - it ended up being part of an anxiety puke - but it's there. 

Since then, things have gone smoothly, especially considering how stressed my wife has been with work over the last few weeks. She's been affectionate and engaged in lots of important ways: she initiates saying ILY more than I do, affectionate touches from her usually occur multiple times a day, she sends me e-mails from work meetings (nothing detailed or romantic, but more of a "just saying hi" sort), she initiates kissing (not passionate, but not chaste, either), she's complimented my appearance (anything from "You're the most handsome man I know" to "That shirt looks good on you"), we're laughing together a lot, and she's proposed plans for us to go out alone together for a night coming up soon and to do a few 5Ks together starting in the fall. And the level of underlying tension seems to have dropped considerably. Aside from one stress-induced fit that she almost immediately apologized for, we haven't had an argument or rough spot since the moratorium was installed. 

Still, I just don't have the feeling that the lust is going to return any time soon. This is a bad/weird position for me to be in, as I'm getting enough from her to convince me that she loves me and feels a certain kind of connection to me, but I really think she has zero libido. I have a lot of motivation to give this time and patience, as I'm getting pretty much everything I want and need, except the not-so-small detail of a decent sex life and being desired by her. However, that missing intimacy component makes me really miserable sometimes and I don't know how long I can go without it, despite all the other good stuff going on.

It's apparent that her squashed libido goes well beyond anything that could be affected by improved relationship dynamics stemming from the work I've been doing on myself. I don't know whether it's a matter of getting a good hormonal shift (she's nearing her mid-40s and is probably perimenopausal, which would explain her more intense bouts of irritability and the thinning of her hair that's happened over the last six months or so), having her levels of stress and fatigue reduce as the kids get older (we still have one younger than five) and she gets her career more in line with what she wants out of it, letting time smooth over various rough spots, or her directly dealing with some of the emotional and psychological issues that have come up in this thread. Likely, it will take some combination of those things. And maybe her libido never comes back. When to have and how to handle a conversation about her end of things is something I'll be thinking about. Now is not the time for that talk, though, as she's very much aware of what she's not giving me and the pressure and guilt she feels about that makes things worse. So, hammering away at that topic any time soon would be a dumb idea on my part. I would like to avoid getting to the point where I'm giving her an ultimatum, but I'm not sure that will be possible.

It's good to know that the work I've done on myself has helped improve things between us, as she's responded positively to the changes I've made. That's not my primary motivation for doing that work, but it is something I hoped for. In a weird way, it's also good that I've realized that the problems in our relationship aren't all due to me. That takes a lot of the pressure off, which helps reduce the frequency and severity of my bouts of anxiety. Since that anxiety has such bad effects, I'm happy to eliminate as much of it as I can.


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## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> It's apparent that her squashed libido goes well beyond anything that could be affected by improved relationship dynamics stemming from the work I've been doing on myself.


Why are you so sure about this?

That is mostly a rhetorical question TMan so I don't really want an answer.

Consider this:

Are you so concerned about figuring everything out that you never occupy the present moment? 

Sure sounds like it from here.

If that rings true at all, I think, in addition to the sexual moratorium, you need to go on a moratorium from thinking about your relationship with your wife. I suspect it will be hard for you to do. The harder you find it, the more it tells you about what you need to work on.

No amount of thinking is going to change the current state of play with your wife. 

Being present and enjoying each other might.


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## MEM2020

I think you are missing something here. 

Your W wants to know you want and love her. All this affection and everything else is about that. She wants/needs to know you are committed. 

Because you haven't controlled your emotions for so long, she doesn't respect you at a "core" level. Meaning, she doesn't think there is any point at which you calmly and steadily begin with detach - really detach. And why should she, you seem unable to. 

The proof is in the fact that she is perfectly happy to repeatedly engage in affection with you - which gets her emotional need met - even though she knows it makes you feel intense desire - frustration and then rejection.

You really haven't turned the temperature down. You have lowered it'- and then allow her to instantly raise it to whatever temp she wants - but not one degree higher. 





Tigerman said:


> The moratorium is in place. That happened the night of my last post in this thread. I didn't handle it particularly well - it ended up being part of an anxiety puke - but it's there.
> 
> Since then, things have gone smoothly, especially considering how stressed my wife has been with work over the last few weeks. She's been affectionate and engaged in lots of important ways: she initiates saying ILY more than I do, affectionate touches from her usually occur multiple times a day, she sends me e-mails from work meetings (nothing detailed or romantic, but more of a "just saying hi" sort), she initiates kissing (not passionate, but not chaste, either), she's complimented my appearance (anything from "You're the most handsome man I know" to "That shirt looks good on you"), we're laughing together a lot, and she's proposed plans for us to go out alone together for a night coming up soon and to do a few 5Ks together starting in the fall. And the level of underlying tension seems to have dropped considerably. Aside from one stress-induced fit that she almost immediately apologized for, we haven't had an argument or rough spot since the moratorium was installed.
> 
> Still, I just don't have the feeling that the lust is going to return any time soon. This is a bad/weird position for me to be in, as I'm getting enough from her to convince me that she loves me and feels a certain kind of connection to me, but I really think she has zero libido. I have a lot of motivation to give this time and patience, as I'm getting pretty much everything I want and need, except the not-so-small detail of a decent sex life and being desired by her. However, that missing intimacy component makes me really miserable sometimes and I don't know how long I can go without it, despite all the other good stuff going on.
> 
> It's apparent that her squashed libido goes well beyond anything that could be affected by improved relationship dynamics stemming from the work I've been doing on myself. I don't know whether it's a matter of getting a good hormonal shift (she's nearing her mid-40s and is probably perimenopausal, which would explain her more intense bouts of irritability and the thinning of her hair that's happened over the last six months or so), having her levels of stress and fatigue reduce as the kids get older (we still have one younger than five) and she gets her career more in line with what she wants out of it, letting time smooth over various rough spots, or her directly dealing with some of the emotional and psychological issues that have come up in this thread. Likely, it will take some combination of those things. And maybe her libido never comes back. When to have and how to handle a conversation about her end of things is something I'll be thinking about. Now is not the time for that talk, though, as she's very much aware of what she's not giving me and the pressure and guilt she feels about that makes things worse. So, hammering away at that topic any time soon would be a dumb idea on my part. I would like to avoid getting to the point where I'm giving her an ultimatum, but I'm not sure that will be possible.
> 
> It's good to know that the work I've done on myself has helped improve things between us, as she's responded positively to the changes I've made. That's not my primary motivation for doing that work, but it is something I hoped for. In a weird way, it's also good that I've realized that the problems in our relationship aren't all due to me. That takes a lot of the pressure off, which helps reduce the frequency and severity of my bouts of anxiety. Since that anxiety has such bad effects, I'm happy to eliminate as much of it as I can.


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## Enchantment

Tigerman said:


> It's apparent that her squashed libido goes well beyond anything that could be affected by improved relationship dynamics stemming from the work I've been doing on myself. I don't know whether it's a matter of getting a good hormonal shift (she's nearing her mid-40s and is probably perimenopausal, which would explain her more *intense bouts of irritability and the thinning of her hair that's happened over the last six months or so*), having her levels of stress and fatigue reduce as the kids get older (we still have one younger than five) and she gets her career more in line with what she wants out of it, letting time smooth over various rough spots, or her directly dealing with some of the emotional and psychological issues that have come up in this thread. Likely, it will take some combination of those things. And maybe her libido never comes back.


Hi Tigerman ~

Libido in a woman is as much a part of her mind as a part of her physical self. BUT, getting the physical self in good working order helps immensely. 

Something you wrote above that I highlighted bothered me. Because it sounds like me several years ago ... hair loss in a woman of middle age can not only be a sign of perimenopause, it could also be a sign of thyroid problems.

If she hasn't gone to her doctor for a thyroid check, she should. It's a simple blood test. If she's sub-clinical hypothyroid or even just borderline normal high, she could try thyroid replacement hormone and see if it helps her.

Just something to consider.

Best wishes.


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## Tigerman

Enchantment:

Thanks for that. She had her thyroid levels checked a few months ago and they came back normal. I don't know where in the normal range, though. FWIW, she usually doesn't sleep well now, either, and is more stressed, and more badly affected by stress, than I ever recall her being. Her periods are still pretty regular in frequency, as far as I can tell, but I have no idea if they've changed in any way.

FNG AND MEM11363:

Thanks for your feedback. I know I'm overly analytical, but that's only when I'm by myself. One of the things that's been most frustrating is that I have very much been loose and playful with my wife and kids, but my wife is often just not up for it. Or only up for so much of it. Frankly, she'd fail the "second date test" pretty regularly - anyone who so often came off as this mopey, easily agitated, or stuck in her own anxieties and stresses would have turned me off fast, if I were just getting to know her. It's hard to be fun and playful and light, when the other party gets into spells where she shrugs at everything or simply refuses to let go of her unhappiness for five minutes. There are flashes of the old her and I can sense that person is still there under all the other crap that's there now. Maybe that's wishful thinking on my part. Only time will tell. I think there is something to what MEM says. I want to reinforce with her that I like the affection she shows out of her own initiative. On the other hand, doing that might just be enabling her to continue on in this way that's easy and rewarding for her but that leaves me frustrated and lonely. Maybe the best thing for me to do is to simply be available even less than I have been, whether that's being out of the house or busy with other things while at home. I've been good at creating that sort of distance and I think it's been beneficial (for me and the relationship), but maybe a heavy duty focus on being unavailable is needed to get her to kick her thermostat setting up further. Anyway, there's a lot for me to consider in what both of you say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Tiger,
Be playful and fun with your kids. Ignore your W when she is anything but nice/warm to you. Non-sexual affection is fine if she initiates it. Be at the house less. And when in the house - stay out of the room she is in unless she has asked to spend to with you, or has gone out of her way to be nice to you. 

And stop having any conversations about how you feel. They are horrIble for your marriage. If she tells you that you seem distant, just smile and shrug. Because "you" seem distant means "you arent chasing me like usual". If she wants closeness she knows what to do. 

But honestly - none of this is going to work at all when it is so obvious how desperately you want her approval and fear her disapproval. 

If she gets aggressive - and she may - just hold up your hand: "when you can speak in a polite, respectful way we can talk".

This moratorium stuff is beyond strange. Never heard a woman say she was putting a moratorium in saying ILY.

If you had the stones - when she gets aggressive about you being distant: have some fun with it - ask her: when was the last time you asked yourself: what can I do for H? And then did it? And then let her talk - she will give you lots of excuses why she has no time for you.

At some point you smile and say: fine with not being your highest priority, and will tolerate being a low priority - like I have been for quite some time. As long as you don't expect much from me.


QUOTE=Tigerman;888929]Enchantment:

Thanks for that. She had her thyroid levels checked a few months ago and they came back normal. I don't know where in the normal range, though. FWIW, she usually doesn't sleep well now, either, and is more stressed, and more badly affected by stress, than I ever recall her being. Her periods are still pretty regular in frequency, as far as I can tell, but I have no idea if they've changed in any way.

FNG AND MEM11363:

Thanks for your feedback. I know I'm overly analytical, but that's only when I'm by myself. One of the things that's been most frustrating is that I have very much been loose and playful with my wife and kids, but my wife is often just not up for it. Or only up for so much of it. Frankly, she'd fail the "second date test" pretty regularly - anyone who so often came off as this mopey, easily agitated, or stuck in her own anxieties and stresses would have turned me off fast, if I were just getting to know her. There are flashes of the old her and I feel like that person is still there under all the other crap that's there now. Maybe that's wishful thinking on my part. Only time will tell. I think there is something to what MEM says. I want to reinforce with her that I like the affection she shows out of her own initiative. On the other hand, doing that might just be enabling her to continue on in this way that's easy and rewarding for her but that leaves me frustrated and lonely. Maybe the best thing for me to do is to simply be available even less than I have been, whether that's being out of the house or busy with other things while at home. I've been good at creating that sort of distance and I think it's been beneficial (for me and the relationship), but maybe a heavy duty focus on being unavailable is needed to get her to kick her thermostat setting up further. Anyway, there's a lot for me to consider in what both of you say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tigerman

MEM11363: I think you're pretty much right on point. The conversations about my feelings are over. They're pointless at best and most likely are poisonous. To be honest, I just don't even feel like opening up like that with her now any more, anyway. As for the desperation for her approval, I think I'm guilty as charged, despite my ongoing efforts to fully detach. Your advice seems sound and I plan to put it to work. Of course, there are all kinds of pitfalls i might run into, but what you say helps me form a target in my mind that I can stay focused on. Thanks again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

T,
I need you to understand something - you and I are more similar than my posts might imply.

In some core male/female behavioral areas my W and I are inverted.
I am naturally more emotional than she is. The main difference between you and me is that I have gotten more disciplined about using restraint. I try hard not to do or say things that are counter productive. That doesnt mean I let W treat me bad. It does mean that when she acts badly and then attempts to stonewall she gets frost bite. 

You have let your wife convince you she can't apologize. It simply isn't true. She doesn't like doing it - so it's a won't/not a can't. 

And her ability to get away with THAT is predicated on being able to make you angry or your inability to let conflict persist because you get too anxious. 

My W is a good person and generally fair, but I acted like you for a bit and she began to get in some very nasty habits. The first was a blatant attempt to stop apologizing. And for frame of reference in a normal week there would be a couple blatant boundary violations - and she knows what to do when I firmly point those out. But she really attempted to shift the whe dynamic, when I started being very passive. 

Your mission should be to prevent your W from directly or indirectly hijacking your emotional state. And to do that you have to find stuff you like to do, and focus on that a LOT more. 





Tigerman said:


> MEM11363: I think you're pretty much right on point. The conversations about my feelings are over. They're pointless at best and most likely are poisonous. To be honest, I just don't even feel like opening up like that with her now any more, anyway. As for the desperation for her approval, I think I'm guilty as charged, despite my ongoing efforts to fully detach. Your advice seems sound and I plan to put it to work. Of course, there are all kinds of pitfalls i might run into, but what you say helps me form a target in my mind that I can stay focused on. Thanks again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Tigerman, it’s the ego that hurts through our emotions. So to stop hurting we have to learn to get away from our ego when we have the need to.

We have two types of consciousness. Our ego consciousness (EC) and our observer consciousness (OC). We need to be able to step out of our EC and into our OC at will.

We are exceedingly easily manipulated through our ego by underhanded sales people, con artists and most especially within our marriage.

Once you’ve learnt about these things you’ll see things you’ve never seen before and you’ll never be so easily hurt again by another person. Read Awareness by Anthony de Mello.

People who get easily emotionally wounded have very poor boundaries. So learn about boundaries, create some for yourself and assert them.


----------



## mdmk

Try this link it works for me

(PMC - How Man and Women keep score - YouTube)


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## Tigerman

Driving to work today I had what might be considered a moment of insight. Not a huge breakthrough, but something that I think will be helpful going forward. I've been rewarding my wife for her bad treatment of me, time and time again, in the hopes that being nice to her will lead her to reciprocate in kind. However, my wife *knows* she treats me badly and that it's not because I'm not good to her (although my raging jerk moments certainly made this worse). And I know it and I know that she knows it. She's known it for a long time, she told me so several times over the years before I ever started working on me (even saying that she knows she should be better towards me), and has basically said as much in more recent discussions where's she's explained her withdrawn or un-fun behavior and attitude by continually focusing on what needs of hers aren't being met (in terms of things that don't have to do with our relationship, but instead with her career and parenting) and making it clear that until her needs are met, there isn't a chance that she's going to be any better in how she is with me. 

What have I done in response? I've tried to help her get those other needs met. Or I've quickly settled for the crumbs of affection and intimacy that she gives me when she feels like it, despite feeling like garbage about how agitated or withdrawn she often gets when I try to initiate those things. My whole approach has been stupid for lots of reasons. Chiefly, it's just screwed up that her behavior and attitude towards me are so sensitive to whether all those outside needs are being met. I should not be essentially validating that. Plus, they're her needs, so it's up to her to meet them. I can help her with that, if she asks for my help, but it's not up to me to fix her life for her or jump in to make things happen for her. And all this tells her is that I'm okay being a low priority and taking the dirty end of the stick most of the time, so long as she throws me some scraps on a semi-regular basis. The more I just hung around waiting for the scraps to be thrown my way and busting my head open to try to help her with her needs, the more it told her that I was perfectly fine with this kind of situation. It probably emboldened her to treat me even worse than she otherwise would have.

I have no doubt that her affectionate behavior is genuine and that she loves me, as I don't think she's putting on an act just to keep me around. But she clearly wants that to be only a one-way thing: when and only when she's comfortable, feeling insecure and needing reassurance, horny, or whatever. Maybe it's a control thing. I don't know. But it's this pattern I have to break. Sure, I'll accept the affection that's shown to me. But I'll be damned if I'm going to keep acting like the hungry dog that's hoping for more scraps to fall off the table. Or the determined bulldog who won't give up trying to reach her, no matter how many obstacles she throws up in front of me. It really is hard for me to take this stance without feeling like I'm coming off as passive-aggressive or spiteful. I think that has to do with me internalizing how she's characterized my actions when I have tried to detach in the past. What I think I need to tell myself is that of course she's going to try to portray my (reasonable) detachment as something wrong that I'm doing - it makes her very uncomfortable! Probably just as uncomfortable as I feel when she's disconnected from me! And who would like a cruddy feeling like that? The only way out of this is to push past that and not give in to the urge to make all the tension go away by settling into the old routine. Hopefully, this might get us to the point where she realizes she really wants to drop her defenses (stop trying to constantly control things, make herself vulnerable, etc) and meet me as an equal in this. Maybe that won't happen. If it does, though, that would be great.


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## MEM2020

Bob,
This is spot on. 



AFEH said:


> Tigerman, it’s the ego that hurts through our emotions. So to stop hurting we have to learn to get away from our ego when we have the need to.
> 
> We have two types of consciousness. Our ego consciousness (EC) and our observer consciousness (OC). We need to be able to step out of our EC and into our OC at will.
> 
> We are exceedingly easily manipulated through our ego by underhanded sales people, con artists and most especially within our marriage.
> 
> Once you’ve learnt about these things you’ll see things you’ve never seen before and you’ll never be so easily hurt again by another person. Read Awareness by Anthony de Mello.
> 
> People who get easily emotionally wounded have very poor boundaries. So learn about boundaries, create some for yourself and assert them.


----------



## MEM2020

Tiger,
Your light bulb moment triggered a very happy memory of mine. 

About 10 years ago I came in the door from work. I was talking on my cell phone as I often did back then when I arrived home. Later that night my W said to me in a very nice, but not tentative manner: "I would really like it if you made the effort to finish your last work call before you walk in the house. Could you do that for me?" She did not apologize for this request. Nor did she radiate anger at me. She expressed a desire in a sincere and honest way. 

And I thought for a moment before replying: "Yes, that is totally fair."

And then I thought some more about this and realized that I should be at the far opposite end of the spectrum from where I had been. And so I made a conscious choice after that: When I walked in the door, she immediately got my full and undivided attention via a big smile and a long hug. And the unspoken, but powerful message was: No matter WHAT happened today, you are the most important person in my life. And so everything bad gets drowned out by the happiness I feel from being reconnected with you at the end of the day. 

This is a very powerful message. It is the opposite of what I had been doing. I love my W for showing me the way, and gently encouraging me to prioritize her and our marriage. 






Tigerman said:


> Driving to work today I had what might be considered a moment of insight. Not a huge breakthrough, but something that I think will be helpful going forward. I've been rewarding my wife for her bad treatment of me, time and time again, in the hopes that being nice to her will lead her to reciprocate in kind. However, my wife *knows* she treats me badly and that it's not because I'm not good to her (although my raging jerk moments certainly made this worse). And I know it and I know that she knows it. She's known it for a long time, she told me so several times over the years before I ever started working on me (even saying that she knows she should be better towards me), and has basically said as much in more recent discussions where's she's explained her withdrawn or un-fun behavior and attitude by continually focusing on what needs of hers aren't being met (in terms of things that don't have to do with our relationship, but instead with her career and parenting) and making it clear that until her needs are met, there isn't a chance that she's going to be any better in how she is with me.
> 
> What have I done in response? I've tried to help her get those other needs met. Or I've quickly settled for the crumbs of affection and intimacy that she gives me when she feels like it, despite feeling like garbage about how agitated or withdrawn she often gets when I try to initiate those things. My whole approach has been stupid for lots of reasons. Chiefly, it's just screwed up that her behavior and attitude towards me are so sensitive to whether all those outside needs are being met. I should not be essentially validating that. Plus, they're her needs, so it's up to her to meet them. I can help her with that, if she asks for my help, but it's not up to me to fix her life for her or jump in to make things happen for her. And all this tells her is that I'm okay being a low priority and taking the dirty end of the stick most of the time, so long as she throws me some scraps on a semi-regular basis. The more I just hung around waiting for the scraps to be thrown my way and busting my head open to try to help her with her needs, the more it told her that I was perfectly fine with this kind of situation. It probably emboldened her to treat me even worse than she otherwise would have.
> 
> I have no doubt that her affectionate behavior is genuine and that she loves me, as I don't think she's putting on an act just to keep me around. But she clearly wants that to be only a one-way thing: when and only when she's comfortable, feeling insecure and needing reassurance, horny, or whatever. Maybe it's a control thing. I don't know. But it's this pattern I have to break. Sure, I'll accept the affection that's shown to me. But I'll be damned if I'm going to keep acting like the hungry dog that's hoping for more scraps to fall off the table. Or the determined bulldog who won't give up trying to reach her, no matter how many obstacles she throws up in front of me. It really is hard for me to take this stance without feeling like I'm coming off as passive-aggressive or spiteful. I think that has to do with me internalizing how she's characterized my actions when I have tried to detach in the past. What I think I need to tell myself is that of course she's going to try to portray my (reasonable) detachment as something wrong that I'm doing - it makes her very uncomfortable! Probably just as uncomfortable as I feel when she's disconnected from me! And who would like a cruddy feeling like that? The only way out of this is to push past that and not give in to the urge to make all the tension go away by settling into the old routine. Hopefully, this might get us to the point where she realizes she really wants to drop her defenses (stop trying to constantly control things, make herself vulnerable, etc) and meet me as an equal in this. Maybe that won't happen. If it does, though, that would be great.


----------



## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> I've been rewarding my wife for her bad treatment of me, time and time again, in the hopes that being nice to her will lead her to reciprocate in kind.


Good insight. 

You now see this and need to commit to yourself that you will act in a manner that is authentic, regardless of the way your wife responds. You will never "please" your wife by being a doormat/chameleon. If she thinks you are a "yes" man, it will just piss her off. Throw a few pendulum swings in there where you go to the other end of the spectrum and act like a jerk and you have a nice recipe for relationship strife.



Tigerman said:


> I can help her with that, if she asks for my help, but it's not up to me to fix her life for her or jump in to make things happen for her.


Yes.



Tigerman said:


> But she clearly wants that to be only a one-way thing: when and only when she's comfortable, feeling insecure and needing reassurance, horny, or whatever.


No. There you go again, trying to fix her by figuring things out. You don't know this and it is meaningless speculation. Quit it. 



Tigerman said:


> But it's this pattern I have to break.


The pattern you have to break is your behavior. She will respond or not. 



Tigerman said:


> It really is hard for me to take this stance without feeling like I'm coming off as passive-aggressive or spiteful.


You have to control yourself. When her behavior triggers you, it is your problem. Did you try to have a debate with your kids when they were two and throwing a tantrum? 



Tigerman said:


> The only way out of this is to push past that and not give in to the urge to make all the tension go away by settling into the old routine.


You get it. This is about learning to self-sooth. No addictions - just sit with your own discomfort. No seeking validation from the wife - which is where most of your problem lies. 

Then you go and post this:



Tigerman said:


> Hopefully, this might get us to the point where she realizes she really wants to drop her defenses (stop trying to constantly control things, make herself vulnerable, etc) and meet me as an equal in this. Maybe that won't happen. If it does, though, that would be great.


Too many "she's" and "her". You can't will the outcome and trying to do so will get in the way of you acting naturally. Think golf swing (if you are a golfer). You are still too focused on her and her issues and not enough on yourself. You can fix your problems, not hers, so fix them and then evaluate.

Sorry I am on a sports roll here. If your tennis doubles partner keeps taking your shots because he thinks you don't hustle, you have two choices. Tell him he is a bad partner while he picks up the slack or start hustling. Fix your game.


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## Tigerman

I know I still have a lot of holes in my game, but tonight I got a good measure of just how far I've come. Shortly after I got home from work, my wife unloaded a huge stress/anxiety/depression/self-loathing puke on me about her career frustrations and related stuff. Just a totally emotional, raw, to the bone explosion. She feels totally lost and like a loser. And, of course, the conversation quickly turned to how so much of her difficulty achieving what she wants is due to me always forcing my career to the top of the priority list, at the expense of time and opportunity for her to work more. This mostly has to do with how childcare and other home management duties are distributed. 

I won't get into all the details, but there's a core of truth in what she said, based on how things had been between us for years. But it doesn't really match the reality of the last year or so and certainly not how things have been over the last six months. She's clinging so hard to the past, for whatever reasons, that it's preventing her from benefiting from how things are now. I remained calm throughout the situation (with the exception of one moment where I nearly blew my stack because she kept yelling at me to finish what I was trying to say while she kept interrupting me as I was trying to do just that!), told her that if she has needs that aren't being met she's responsible for addressing them and if she needs my help she has to approach me for that, and made very clear that I did not view any such request for help as her asking me for permission for anything (as a child might) or as some sort of weakness on her part. I also reminded her that I had tried many times, both recently and over the years, to either anticipate what she might need on this front or to get her to talk to me about it. Every single time, she either reacted angrily or just shut me down. So, as much as she was saying that I should just know what she needs and do something about it, that doesn't fit with how the situation was actually set up. I said that I want to work together with her on this and I'm very supportive of her, but for anything to get better, she's going to have to trust me, approach me as an equal, and let her guard down. She just might have to admit, out loud, that she needs something. And she just might have to settle for less than everything she's looking for, but I'll do my best to help her. The result of that will surely be something much better than where she's at now. That can only happen, though, if she treats us like partners working together, rather than adversaries squabbling over the scarce resources of time and peace and quiet. She clearly resisted what I was saying at first, throwing back at me things from the deep past or distorted versions of recent episodes. I calmly deflected those, brought the conversation back to what would be productive, and (softly) hammered home the same key points. Eventually, she showed signs that she was coming around to what I was saying and that she wanted to talk (at some future time) about how we can arrange things to help her out. When I was done talking, I hugged her and told her I love her. And then I went and hung out with the kids for a bit, who were playing out back.

After getting to cool down for a while on her own, she bounced back a good bit. We didn't mention the episode at all before she left for her movie night with some of her girlfriends. There was no big emotional goodbye, no speech about anything, no revisiting any of the details of our talk, or anything like that. We had a nice goodbye and then she was on her way over her friend's house.

In the past, this would have been a disaster. I would have reacted to her emotional state by getting all freaked out or angry. That would have led me to either placate her ("You're right about how terrible I've been. I'll do anything you want!") or blow up at her and refuse to do a darn thing for her. The whole thing would have turned into a nightmare that just fueled resentments and pushed us even further apart. 

Am I certain that we'll actually have that talk about what can be done to help her and that it will go well? No. I can't control her end of that, so there's no telling for sure whether she'll ever approach me or approach me in the right frame of mind. But, the stage has at least been set for that to happen. I didn't cave or forfeit my boundaries, I stuck to focusing on what's needed to responsibly handle the problem, and I didn't get sucked into some need for a big emotional follow-up (good or bad) once it was over. And I don't feel a bit of anxiety now, nor did I feel any throughout this. This is probably the best I've ever felt after this kind of thing. Thanks to all of you who have helped me along the way.


----------



## FormerNiceGuy

Tigerman said:


> I didn't cave or forfeit my boundaries, I stuck to focusing on what's needed to responsibly handle the problem, and I didn't get sucked into some need for a big emotional follow-up (good or bad) once it was over. And I don't feel a bit of anxiety now, nor did I feel any throughout this. This is probably the best I've ever felt after this kind of thing.


That guy sounds healthy.

Kudos for all the hard work.


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## MEM2020

Beautiful. 

In a week or so, in a low key way, you might mention what you CAN do to help with her schedule provided she gives you some lead time. And that also means making sure you know what your extended day care options are - in case you both have to work late. 




Tigerman said:


> I know I still have a lot of holes in my game, but tonight I got a good measure of just how far I've come. Shortly after I got home from work, my wife unloaded a huge stress/anxiety/depression/self-loathing puke on me about her career frustrations and related stuff. Just a totally emotional, raw, to the bone explosion. She feels totally lost and like a loser. And, of course, the conversation quickly turned to how so much of her difficulty achieving what she wants is due to me always forcing my career to the top of the priority list, at the expense of time and opportunity for her to work more. This mostly has to do with how childcare and other home management duties are distributed.
> 
> I won't get into all the details, but there's a core of truth in what she said, based on how things had been between us for years. But it doesn't really match the reality of the last year or so and certainly not how things have been over the last six months. She's clinging so hard to the past, for whatever reasons, that it's preventing her from benefiting from how things are now. I remained calm throughout the situation (with the exception of one moment where I nearly blew my stack because she kept yelling at me to finish what I was trying to say while she kept interrupting me as I was trying to do just that!), told her that if she has needs that aren't being met she's responsible for addressing them and if she needs my help she has to approach me for that, and made very clear that I did not view any such request for help as her asking me for permission for anything (as a child might) or as some sort of weakness on her part. I also reminded her that I had tried many times, both recently and over the years, to either anticipate what she might need on this front or to get her to talk to me about it. Every single time, she either reacted angrily or just shut me down. So, as much as she was saying that I should just know what she needs and do something about it, that doesn't fit with how the situation was actually set up. I said that I want to work together with her on this and I'm very supportive of her, but for anything to get better, she's going to have to trust me, approach me as an equal, and let her guard down. She just might have to admit, out loud, that she needs something. And she just might have to settle for less than everything she's looking for, but I'll do my best to help her. The result of that will surely be something much better than where she's at now. That can only happen, though, if she treats us like partners working together, rather than adversaries squabbling over the scarce resources of time and peace and quiet. She clearly resisted what I was saying at first, throwing back at me things from the deep past or distorted versions of recent episodes. I calmly deflected those, brought the conversation back to what would be productive, and (softly) hammered home the same key points. Eventually, she showed signs that she was coming around to what I was saying and that she wanted to talk (at some future time) about how we can arrange things to help her out. When I was done talking, I hugged her and told her I love her. And then I went and hung out with the kids for a bit, who were playing out back.
> 
> After getting to cool down for a while on her own, she bounced back a good bit. We didn't mention the episode at all before she left for her movie night with some of her girlfriends. There was no big emotional goodbye, no speech about anything, no revisiting any of the details of our talk, or anything like that. We had a nice goodbye and then she was on her way over her friend's house.
> 
> In the past, this would have been a disaster. I would have reacted to her emotional state by getting all freaked out or angry. That would have led me to either placate her ("You're right about how terrible I've been. I'll do anything you want!") or blow up at her and refuse to do a darn thing for her. The whole thing would have turned into a nightmare that just fueled resentments and pushed us even further apart.
> 
> Am I certain that we'll actually have that talk about what can be done to help her and that it will go well? No. I can't control her end of that, so there's no telling for sure whether she'll ever approach me or approach me in the right frame of mind. But, the stage has at least been set for that to happen. I didn't cave or forfeit my boundaries, I stuck to focusing on what's needed to responsibly handle the problem, and I didn't get sucked into some need for a big emotional follow-up (good or bad) once it was over. And I don't feel a bit of anxiety now, nor did I feel any throughout this. This is probably the best I've ever felt after this kind of thing. Thanks to all of you who have helped me along the way.


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## Tigerman

Rather than giving a blow-by-blow account of developments since my last update, I'm curious to hear thoughts about something that just happened. I've grown weary of my wife's tendency to fall into spells in which she's quite affectionate whenever she feels like it, while giving very little response when I'm affectionate toward her. This pattern is undeniable at this point and she falls into it pretty easily and for long stretches. 

I've resolved to turn the temperature on my end down very low, below where I've tried to keep it over the last few weeks. Yesterday and this morning I did not initiate any affection with her at all and gave only lukewarm responses to her kisses and hugs. I also didn't try to initiate any fun conversation with her; the only things I talked to her about concerned the kids or the household. From how she was acting this morning, I could tell that she was aware that something was going on. By the time I got to work this morning, I had a message on my voice mail from her. She was talking in a sweet voice, obviously fumbling over her words, and telling me that she just wanted to say hi and that she's thinking of me and that she loves me. After waiting about an hour, I call her back and we chat for a bit. Nothing big and we just go over something funny that happened to a mutual friend that she found out about this morning. As we're going to end the call, I can tell that she's doing that hesitating thing where she's wondering whether I'll say ILY first. I don't. She adds one more small detail to prolong the conversation a bit further and then says ILY. I say it back before we hang up.

What can I do to break out of this cycle? Is it really a matter of keeping my thermostat set at ice cold for a prolonged period, no matter what she does? I can see some sense in that, but it also seems like it might be passive-aggressive behavior on my part. I sure don't want to talk to her about this, as avoiding R talks seems to have been really helpful lately. But I'm tired of feeling like all this is so one-sided. I don't doubt that she loves me, is attracted to me (to whatever extent someone with no libido can feel attraction), and wants us to be happy together. I do doubt, however, whether she has any appreciation of the fact that things working well between us requires that she allow herself to be open and responsive to my displays of affection and intimacy. Otherwise, she had might as well replace me with a teddy bear or a soft blanket - something that she can pick up and get comfort from when she wants it, but that doesn't ever seek her out or impose anything on her.

EDIT: A big part of what bothers me here is that she gets thrown off so much when I stop pursuing or responding, but I also get little or no positive reinforcement when I pursue. It's as though not only does she want the comfort hat comes from me responding to her when she wants to be affectionate, she also needs me to continue banging my head against a wall with her by regularly pursuing her. I end up feeling like I'm in a no-man's land.


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## MEM2020

Tiger,
What would happen if you simply let her set the temperature regarding affection? Simply let her come to you. AND kept the overall temperature cool enough that she does so daily?

This doesn't mean being a jerk in ANY WAY. I simply means easing up on enough calls/texts/emails/i love yous/gifts/requests to spend time together etc. that she WANTS to hug you to get some warmth. 

IF she complains that YOU aren't initiating enough verbal/other stuff - just look puzzled and say: Babe you far prefer for ME to let you decide when we are physically affectionate and I far prefer you to initiate the talking part of it. And then shut up. And don't argue. And don't let her make you angry. And don't debate. She will likely say she has no idea what you mean about affection. And you are being a jerk. 

Get very practiced at: "This isn't a conversation - its an outburst" and then hold up your hand for her to stop. And if she doesn't, shake your head and walk away. 

You can also say "this is no longer a conversation, its a hostile outburst and it needs to END right now". Practice using edge in your tone - without raising the volume. 






Tigerman said:


> Rather than giving a blow-by-blow account of developments since my last update, I'm curious to hear thoughts about something that just happened. I've grown weary of my wife's tendency to fall into spells in which she's quite affectionate whenever she feels like it, while giving very little response when I'm affectionate toward her. This pattern is undeniable at this point and she falls into it pretty easily and for long stretches.
> 
> I've resolved to turn the temperature on my end down very low, below where I've tried to keep it over the last few weeks. Yesterday and this morning I did not initiate any affection with her at all and gave only lukewarm responses to her kisses and hugs. I also didn't try to initiate any fun conversation with her; the only things I talked to her about concerned the kids or the household. From how she was acting this morning, I could tell that she was aware that something was going on. By the time I got to work this morning, I had a message on my voice mail from her. She was talking in a sweet voice, obviously fumbling over her words, and telling me that she just wanted to say hi and that she's thinking of me and that she loves me. After waiting about an hour, I call her back and we chat for a bit. Nothing big and we just go over something funny that happened to a mutual friend that she found out about this morning. As we're going to end the call, I can tell that she's doing that hesitating thing where she's wondering whether I'll say ILY first. I don't. She adds one more small detail to prolong the conversation a bit further and then says ILY. I say it back before we hang up.
> 
> What can I do to break out of this cycle? Is it really a matter of keeping my thermostat set at ice cold for a prolonged period, no matter what she does? I can see some sense in that, but it also seems like it might be passive-aggressive behavior on my part. I sure don't want to talk to her about this, as avoiding R talks seems to have been really helpful lately. But I'm tired of feeling like all this is so one-sided. I don't doubt that she loves me, is attracted to me (to whatever extent someone with no libido can feel attraction), and wants us to be happy together. I do doubt, however, whether she has any appreciation of the fact that things working well between us requires that she allow herself to be open and responsive to my displays of affection and intimacy. Otherwise, she had might as well replace me with a teddy bear or a soft blanket - something that she can pick up and get comfort from when she wants it, but that doesn't ever seek her out or impose anything on her.
> 
> EDIT: A big part of what bothers me here is that she gets thrown off so much when I stop pursuing or responding, but I also get little or no positive reinforcement when I pursue. It's as though not only does she want the comfort hat comes from me responding to her when she wants to be affectionate, she also needs me to continue banging my head against a wall with her by regularly pursuing her. I end up feeling like I'm in a no-man's land.


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## badbane

I am curious I know that you guys are cooling off. But are you being sexually playful at all. I mean have you made her feel sexy lately. I mean I smack my wife on the ass every once in awhile, or sneak in a boob brush. I do it at random times and not just when I want sex. Maybe you should try to be more playful. There is no reason why on this earth you can't be playful. IF she objects just say sorry but it just happens. 
I think you guys need to go on some dates or something. Jeez there is cooling things off and turning things off. Sex is good and while cooling off is great you should still make your wife feel sexy and confident. 
Tell her she looks hot, accidentally touch one of her private areas ( do not apologize just tell you couldn't help yourself), if she bent over at the waist tell her "look i know we are trying to be cool here but that's just not fair." 

I read alot about you working on manning up and that's good. I haven't read one thing in this entire series where you made she feel sexy. Maybe you should try it. Stop apologizing for being sexually attracted to your wife.


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## Tigerman

MEM11363:

I have decided to basically take the approach of letting her set the temperature for now, while keeping things very low on my side when it comes to initiation. What I've noticed over the last few months, and especially within the last week or two, is that when I do that, she's more likely to either up the temperature herself (if ever so slightly) as things go along or to respond positively to my subtle dialing up of the temperature. This happened both last night and this morning, in fact. Quick story about last night. We're sitting on the couch together, on opposite ends. It's just too hot right now for either of us to feel comfortable sitting close to each other. All day, I had played it very cool and had gone out for a short bit earlier in the evening, too. As we're sitting there, she turns to me and says, "I'd love to sit closer to you, but it's just too hot right now." She then reaches out to stroke my arm and then grabs my hand. We spent the rest of the evening occasionally reaching out to touch each other or briefly kissing. At one point, I broke away from kissing her lips to pull up her shirt a bit and kiss her belly. No resistance, nothing squeamish, and everything felt like it was flowing naturally. Nice stuff. 

If I had to guess based on everything she's said over the last few months and the various things that have gone on, I'd say that it probably would be good for her to drive the ship on this for a while. For far too long, I was a sex pest, made her feel bad about her lowish libido back when she had a libido, questioned her feelings for me because of her lower interest in sex, and a whole bunch of other things connected to her career and parenting that I mentioned earlier. She carries around a ton of baggage about sex and intimacy, so much that even when I try to initiate sex with her and take her rejection in stride (as happened a little over a week ago), she's gets jumpy and defensive. As she told me after that recent incident, I did a lot to create this situation - she admits playing a role, too, but she's right about my past actions and attitudes. It is going to take time to undo all the damage caused in the past and for her to get comfortable with affection, intimacy, and sex with me. Another thing she said as part of this recent incident was that it's my actions over a longer stretch of time, and not single things that I do or anything that I say, that matter to her in getting her to be more comfortable. She made it very clear that she has not yet caught up to me in moving on from how things were, but she also seems to want to move past them.

Throughout this entire process, I've had the idea that if I just improve myself, the mere fact that I've done that would be enough to make things better. That's just "magic bullet" thinking, though, and that stuff never turns out right. If I really have made substantial changes for the better, I ought to be able to show that over a long stretch of time and to not get so frustrated or anxious (or, at least, not give in to those feelings) when she shows that she's not yet caught up to me. Keeping myself under control, in the sense of not doing something counterproductive like trying to crank up the temperature on my own, is a big part of that. And not whining or acting weird when things don't measure up to where I'd really like them to be - as I managed to do after two recent rounds of duty sex that were disappointing in certain respects but that I looked at instead as initial steps on her end toward finding something that will work for us - is another big part of this. 

Yes, my wife has issues of her own that she has to work through. And, yes, I need to keep in mind that it's best for me to not make my emotional state dependent on her emotional state. But I also think it would be foolish of me to ignore the feelings she has and why she has them. Maybe I'll give her a whole bunch of time to try to get comfortable with things again, and it never really gets back to a good level. I can't control that. But, I can recognize my role in creating the problem and make a serious effort at giving her a chance to get back to a good place. 


badbane:

I am mixing in playfulness, although not quite the sort that you're talking about. My wife has never responded well to being groped and at this point all it does is make her shut down. But that belly kiss I gave her last night and a swat on her rear-end this morning are things that work, so long as they're a natural part of the ongoing situation. And I definitely compliment her looks and sexiness from time to time. The problem really isn't one of her not being made to feel sexy by me. It's more a matter of her having felt for so long that sex is this dominant issue in our relationship and something she's failing at. So, I completely agree that I need to mix in playfulness and some things with a sexual edge to them, I just don't want to overdo it, because that's just not going to have a good effect.


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## MEM2020

Tiger,
That is great. My suggestions were not intended to be antagonistic. Quite the opposite. More intended to make the point you should not tolerate harsh comments or treatment based on your lack of chasing. What you did last night was great. I don't reject my wife, when she initiates warmth. 


QUOTE=Tigerman;973569]MEM11363:

I have decided to basically take the approach of letting her set the temperature for now, while keeping things very low on my side when it comes to initiation. What I've noticed over the last few months, and especially within the last week or two, is that when I do that, she's more likely to either up the temperature herself (if ever so slightly) as things go along or to respond positively to my subtle dialing up of the temperature. This happened both last night and this morning, in fact. Quick story about last night. We're sitting on the couch together, on opposite ends. It's just too hot right now for either of us to feel comfortable sitting close to each other. All day, I had played it very cool and had gone out for a short bit earlier in the evening, too. As we're sitting there, she turns to me and says, "I'd love to sit closer to you, but it's just too hot right now." She then reaches out to stroke my arm and then grabs my hand. We spent the rest of the evening occasionally reaching out to touch each other or briefly kissing. At one point, I broke away from kissing her lips to pull up her shirt a bit and kiss her belly. No resistance, nothing squeamish, and everything felt like it was flowing naturally. Nice stuff. 

If I had to guess based on everything she's said over the last few months and the various things that have gone on, I'd say that it probably would be good for her to drive the ship on this for a while. For far too long, I was a sex pest, made her feel bad about her lowish libido back when she had a libido, questioned her feelings for me because of her lower interest in sex, and a whole bunch of other things connected to her career and parenting that I mentioned earlier. She carries around a ton of baggage about sex and intimacy, so much that even when I try to initiate sex with her and take her rejection in stride (as happened a little over a week ago), she's gets jumpy and defensive. As she told me after that recent incident, I did a lot to create this situation - she admits playing a role, too, but she's right about my past actions and attitudes. It is going to take time to undo all the damage caused in the past and for her to get comfortable with affection, intimacy, and sex with me. Another thing she said as part of this recent incident was that it's my actions over a longer stretch of time, and not single things that I do or anything that I say, that matter to her in getting her to be more comfortable. She made it very clear that she has not yet caught up to me in moving on from how things were, but she also seems to want to move past them.

Throughout this entire process, I've had the idea that if I just improve myself, the mere fact that I've done that would be enough to make things better. That's just "magic bullet" thinking, though, and that stuff never turns out right. If I really have made substantial changes for the better, I ought to be able to show that over a long stretch of time and to not get so frustrated or anxious (or, at least, not give in to those feelings) when she shows that she's not yet caught up to me. Keeping myself under control, in the sense of not doing something counterproductive like trying to crank up the temperature on my own, is a big part of that. And not whining or acting weird when things don't measure up to where I'd really like them to be - as I managed to do after two recent rounds of duty sex that were disappointing in certain respects but that I looked at instead as initial steps on her end toward finding something that will work for us - is another big part of this. 

Yes, my wife has issues of her own that she has to work through. And, yes, I need to keep in mind that it's best for me to not make my emotional state dependent on her emotional state. But I also think it would be foolish of me to ignore the feelings she has and why she has them. Maybe I'll give her a whole bunch of time to try to get comfortable with things again, and it never really gets back to a good level. I can't control that. But, I can recognize my role in creating the problem and make a serious effort at giving her a chance to get back to a good place. 


badbane:

I am mixing in playfulness, although not quite the sort that you're talking about. My wife has never responded well to being groped and at this point all it does is make her shut down. But that belly kiss I gave her last night and a swat on her rear-end this morning are things that work, so long as they're a natural part of the ongoing situation. And I definitely compliment her looks and sexiness from time to time. The problem really isn't one of her not being made to feel sexy by me. It's more a matter of her having felt for so long that sex is this dominant issue in our relationship and something she's failing at. So, I completely agree that I need to mix in playfulness and some things with a sexual edge to them, I just don't want to overdo it, because that's just not going to have a good effect.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Have you considered that your wife may be playing you? You do seem very caught up in some kind of weird game. We often can’t see these things ourselves and need a third person to spot them.


You get to learn how to be that third person by reading Awareness: Amazon.co.uk: Anthony De Mello: Books. It’ll get you away from your ego and hence your emotions such that you’ll be able to see your wife’s behaviour clearly, in the cold light of day like an unattached, uninvolved bystander would. You’ll also get to see how your ego contributes to the dynamics between the two of you.


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## Tigerman

AFEH:

Could she be gaming me in some way? I suppose that could be the case, but I think it's unlikely. It just doesn't fit with what I know about her over the long haul and what I've seen from her over the last few months. And I don't see what she'd have to gain from playing me at this point. Whatever flaws my wife has, that sort of cruelty is not one of them.

Besides the various issues she has on her end (stress, career frustration, resentment, etc), I think she is very thrown off by all the change that has taken place with me and is still trying to find some sort of equilibrium in the new environment. In connection with that, I think she's still needing to build up trust in me, that this new me is for real and is something she can count on going forward. We got burned early on in this process, when she made a big pronouncement about how great everything is and how happy she was, only to have it quickly fall apart. That failure happened because the changes in me hadn't fully taken hold yet and she trusted too much too early. She couldn't handle the disappointment when I had some of the inevitable bumps along the way, and I was ashamed (and consequently totally stressed out) of having backslid pretty much right after she made that pronouncement. I know that bad experience is still lingering for her, as it is for me. So, I take the weird dynamic between us to be part of the process of searching for stable ground and coming to believe it's really there. I wouldn't be surprised if she feels very out of control right now, and consequently anxious and uncomfortable, because the old patterns of our relationship, however bad they were, were something she had grown comfortable with and knew how to deal with. And now they're gone. In fact, she's basically said just that to me at times.

Now, do I think she's sometimes tempted to take the easy way out and to not be bothered with even trying to adapt to all this change? Yes, I do. And that probably makes this process rougher than it otherwise would have been. That probably also gives it some appearance of game-playing. However, I've seen enough sincerity in her actions so far to discount the possibility that she's playing a game and to have some patience (to a limited extent, of course) for her occasional hops onto the old, well-worn path.


MEM11363:

I didn't take anything you said as antagonistic, or as recommending antagonism toward my wife. I was just trying to set out all that I was thinking as best I could.


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## AFEH

It’s exceedingly obvious from what you write that your ego consciousness is full of clutter. You have like an excess clutter of internal dialogue, like there’s two people in your mind talking to one another, you and your wife. I somehow doubt you actually see who your wife really is and because of that she probably feels somewhat invisible to you.

The noise level in your mind is so high that little else can get in. Because of that you will be missing a whole lot of what is actually going on around you. If you read that book after a couple of hours you will begin to understand what I mean.


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