# Advice: Am I being ridiculous?



## McMuffin

Just want to get advice on something. My wife and I recently went out to the bar to have a few beers with my best friend, and her best friend and her husband. My wife is a very social person and gorgeous, and can it isn’t unusual for her to go talk to her friends at the bar. Me, I prefer to chill out at a table/bar and talk with friends and her. In a nice way, I said, look, please do not be wondering all over the bar, because guys will not put it together that you are with me. I mean, I know guys are going to look, I just do not want to be comparing myself to every other guy at the bar all night long ya know? And I knew the probability of this one guy being there was likely, so I said, please do not talk to that guy away from me because he flirts with you and is always looking at you, every time we are out. She said, “I can’t help it that he wants to flirt with me” to which I agreed but still maintained to just walk away or come and get me if that happens. There is no history there and he is about 9-10 years younger than she is. So the said guy was there that night, just like I had thought, but eventually as my wife would move away from the table to talk to her friends, he would go over and talk to whoever she was talking to. He never would approach her while she was close to me. One time I walked by her and he was talking to her and her friend and he tried to say something to me but I just kept walking. When I got out, I told my wife to come sit down with me. She knew I was getting upset. So, do I have a valid reason here or am I just being silly? I do not feel any competition at all, just that it bugs the living s**t out of me. I just find it odd that every single time without fail, when she would be away from me, he would be there talking to her. I don’t know, maybe I am just being ridiculous, but I do care to hear what others think here.


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## Cosmos

Firstly, I think it's a little bad mannered of your W to saunter off chatting to her friends whilst out with you and your mutual friends. A quick hello, is one thing, but leaving your group to go chat with other groups of people is disrespectful, IMO.

Lastly, if your W knows that you dislike the one guy flirting with her, why doesn't she shut it down? IME, people don't continue flirting if they're not getting some sort of response.


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## McMuffin

I found myself watching her to see her signs and reactions, she did not see me, and I didnt see any signs of her flirting back or really enjoying it. From what I saw, she stayed focused on the person she was talking to and didnt pay him much attention. She passed it as part of being attractive she stated, and that he was young and I shouldnt be jealous of it.


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## Chris Taylor

Did she leave you and your friends and talk to other friends at the bar? If so, she's being rude to all parties involved.

But if the friends you went with are at the bar and you're being Mr. Unsocial sitting at the table alone, maybe you should go stand with your wife.


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## moxy

Being a social butterfly is one thing, but inviting the continued flirtation of a man who demonstrates his interest by not ****ting down his flirtation after you've asked her to be mindful of marital boundaries is disrespectful behavior. Tell her you are not okay with this and if she wants to stay married, she will not allow this kind of attention.

And then, quit being insecure and needy. 

Why are you comparing yourself to every guy in the bar? Do you feel like you don't measure up? Work out more. Develop more if your hobbies and interests. Your self-confidence isn't doing so well and you're exuding a desperate vibe every time you plead with her not to flaunt herself because you're afraid you don't measure up to others.

Build some confidence. She might be great, but she doesn't need to be your whole world.


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## McMuffin

Chris Taylor said:


> Did she leave you and your friends and talk to other friends at the bar? If so, she's being rude to all parties involved.
> 
> But if the friends you went with are at the bar and you're being Mr. Unsocial sitting at the table alone, maybe you should go stand with your wife.


No, my friends remained at the table, and all were totally engaged in conversation. Her friend went to talk to her sister who had come into the bar, my wife followed her.


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## McMuffin

moxy said:


> Being a social butterfly is one thing, but inviting the continued flirtation of a man who demonstrates his interest by not ****ting down his flirtation after you've asked her to be mindful of marital boundaries is disrespectful behavior. Tell her you are not okay with this and if she wants to stay married, she will not allow this kind of attention.
> 
> And then, quit being insecure and needy.
> 
> Why are you comparing yourself to every guy in the bar? Do you feel like you don't measure up? Work out more. Develop more if your hobbies and interests. Your self-confidence isn't doing so well and you're exuding a desperate vibe every time you plead with her not to flaunt herself because you're afraid you don't measure up to others.
> 
> Build some confidence. She might be great, but she doesn't need to be your whole world.


I can see this as part of being insecure. Yes, I am already running the MAP now as a means to eliminate this. I find myself measuring up because my self confidence is low at this time. I do not feel like that guy is competition, I just see it as disrespectful to me that she allow it. She played it off as something she can't control and when I said, "then walk away," she said she could not be rude to him because she isn't that way.


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## Deejo

McMuffin said:


> I do not feel like that guy is competition, I just see it as disrespectful to me that she allow it. She played it off as something she can't control and when I said, "then walk away," she said she could not be rude to him because she isn't that way.


You are correct to see it as disrespectful. She has no problem being disrespectful to you ... but doesn't want to be rude to him.

Are you paying attention to that kind of response? It speaks volumes.

How are you with confrontation? (I don't mean bar-fight confrontation)
I mean are you comfortable with conflict, either with your wife or with others?


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## McMuffin

Deejo said:


> You are correct to see it as disrespectful. She has no problem being disrespectful to you ... but doesn't want to be rude to him.
> 
> Are you paying attention to that kind of response? It speaks volumes.
> 
> How are you with confrontation? (I don't mean bar-fight confrontation)
> I mean are you comfortable with conflict, either with your wife or with others?


I am great with confrontation. I have no issues letting anyone know when the line has been crossed. I try to stay reserved and think more about things that piss me off and how to react, rather than acting before thinking.


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## McMuffin

Deejo said:


> Are you paying attention to that kind of response? It speaks volumes.


I don't really know what it speaks honestly. Are you insinuating that she likes it and therefore does not want to stop it?


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## Deejo

Good to hear.


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## Cosmos

McMuffin said:


> I don't really know what it speaks honestly. Are you insinuating that she likes it and therefore does not want to stop it?


At a guess I'd say she certainly likes it, because she finds it flattering. I'd also hazard a guess that it is more so because you are present and she knows that it makes you feel competitive, and that gives her a buzz.

Work on your own self-esteem issues, OP, up your game and stop allowing your W to treat you this way.

As a woman, I know _exactly _how to shut a man down and discourage him flirting with me. So does your W.


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## Deejo

McMuffin said:


> I don't really know what it speaks honestly. Are you insinuating that she likes it and therefore does not want to stop it?


I'm seriously not insinuating anything other than there is an obvious respect and boundaries deficit in your marriage. One that certainly is bothering you.

You know her better than anyone here. If she is just the 'chatty-kathy' type and talks up a storm to everyone than her behavior may not have any sinister intent at all. Believe me, I'm not trying to create more issues, sounds like you're dealing with plenty.

If she knows it bothers you ... and does it without regards for your feelings, or fear of consequence, then that's a problem.


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## east2west

You should keep a close eye on your wife and if this guy approaches then you should be there within 10 seconds with your arm around her. Don't leave it to her to disallow it. Mate-guarding your wife is a basic primate behavior. Not something that makes you seem insecure or jealous.


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## McMuffin

Cosmos said:


> At a guess I'd say she certainly likes it, because she finds it flattering. I'd also hazard a guess that it is more so because you are present and she knows that it makes you feel competitive, and that gives her a buzz.
> 
> Work on your own self-esteem issues, OP, up your game and stop allowing your W to treat you this way.
> 
> As a woman, I know _exactly _how to shut a man down and discourage him flirting with me. So does your W.


Definitely working me as we speak. I know we all find it flattering when someone flirts with us, its just shutting it down when that happens as a sign of respect to your SO.


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## McMuffin

Deejo said:


> I'm seriously not insinuating anything other than there is an obvious respect and boundaries deficit in your marriage. One that certainly is bothering you.
> 
> You know her better than anyone here. If she is just the 'chatty-kathy' type and talks up a storm to everyone than her behavior may not have any sinister intent at all. Believe me, I'm not trying to create more issues, sounds like you're dealing with plenty.
> 
> If she knows it bothers you ... and does it without regards for your feelings, or fear of consequence, then that's a problem.


My wife is definitely a "chatty-kathy" no doubt about it.


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## Cosmos

McMuffin said:


> Definitely working me as we speak. *I know we all find it flattering when someone flirts with us, its just shutting it down when that happens as a sign of respect to your SO.*


:iagree:


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## McMuffin

east2west said:


> You should keep a close eye on your wife and if this guy approaches then you should be there within 10 seconds with your arm around her. Don't leave it to her to disallow it. Mate-guarding your wife is a basic primate behavior. Not something that makes you seem insecure or jealous.


I see what your stating here, I hope that it doesnt happen again, but if so, I will deploy this tactic.


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## east2west

McMuffin said:


> I see what your stating here, I hope that it doesnt happen again, but if so, I will deploy this tactic.


The guy will disappear if he sees you as the type to go ape sh!t when he makes a move on your wife. On the other hand if he thinks you are a pu$$y who won't do anything about it he will keep escalating. So his behavior reflects his opinion about you.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

> My wife is...gorgeous





> please do not be wondering all over the bar, because guys will not put it together that you are with me





> I do not feel any competition at all


Of course you're feeling competitive and insecure, otherwise it wouldn't bother you!


> *please do not be wondering all over the bar*





> She said, “I can’t help it that he wants to flirt with me”





> She knew I was getting upset.





> She passed it as part of being attractive she stated, and that he was young and I shouldnt be jealous of it.


She was BLATANTLY disrespectful of your request and your feelings!


> Are you insinuating that she likes it and therefore does not want to stop it?


I don't know if Deejo's insinuating it, but I'm STATING it!

It sounds to me like YOU think you married WAY ABOVE YOU (at least in the looks department) and you're lucky to have her! Sounds like she thinks so, too! You need to work on your manning-up and boundaries. 

She needs to have MORE RESPECT for YOU and for herself. She ought to care more about what her HUSBAND/PARTNER/LIFE-MATE thinks of her than some random stranger at a bar.


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## Cosmos

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by east2west View Post
> You should keep a close eye on your wife and if this guy approaches then you should be there within 10 seconds with your arm around her. Don't leave it to her to disallow it. Mate-guarding your wife is a basic primate behavior. Not something that makes you seem insecure or jealous.





> McMuffin posted: I see what your stating here, I hope that it doesnt happen again, but if so, I will deploy this tactic.


Actually, I don't know if I agree with this tactic. If your W is playing the "make him jealous" game, this could backfire on you. Your W knows what she's doing and she is the one who has to stop it.

I would feel _devastated _if I made my partner feel the way your W is making you feel. He's always so proud to be seen out and about with me, and I would _never_ try to shake his confidence or sense of security in our relationship.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

I agree with Cosmos on this!

As a woman, I would see this as P-Whipped behavior, not MANLY behavior. YOUR WIFE is the one who should be shutting this down.

If you jump up and run to her every time some other male comes sniffing around her, whaddya wanna bet she increases this behavior JUST to watch you come running....for the entertainment value?!?


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## RandomDude

A repeat offender? I would have confronted him and started something.

I do agree however that your wife also has to do her part.


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## 2ntnuf

Impatiently watching in the background here. Looking around whistling.

Thinking: yep your right he's right yep okay what next???


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## RandomDude

The thing is, aside from your wife. I wouldn't take this sh-t from this guy, but that's just me. It's disrespect from HIM, and he's going to continue trying to worm his way to talk to your wife everytime he sees her because he thinks/knows you won't do sh-t.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

> Impatiently watching in the background here. Looking around whistling.
> 
> Thinking: yep your right he's right yep okay what next???


I am ROFL, 2ntnuf, you're SO droll! :rofl: :rofl:


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

Random:

You're right, too, Dude! 

Stepping in looks BAD from the wife's POV.
NOT stepping in looks BAD from the POS' POV.

Which is why I think his wife is an insensitive be-yotch for playing this game with him in public!


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## 2ntnuf

That's what mum used to say. heehee


Quote: you're SO droll!


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## 2ntnuf

And so.........the rub. Do you get in there and hope you got more friends there who will back you?

Do you just get in there and take your chances?

Do you tell the beotch to get a ride with her new friend and leave?

I know the best thing is to see it early and stop it before it gets this far, but sometimes you don't see it as threatening till it's too late.

Trust........Don't you trust me? He doesn't mean anything. He's just a friend. I think I heard them all or at least most of them.


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## 2ntnuf

Sorry, not trying to hijack anything here.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

From THIS woman's POV I think he should:

1. Step in and tell other guy to STEP OFF. Go out and find his OWN woman and leave MINE alone.

2.He should tell wife to get her coat, we're leaving. If she leaves with him, he should tell her in the car IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS, 'You pull that sh1t AGAIN, and there'll be hell to pay. You shut that sh1t down WITHIN THE FIRST 10 seconds next time that happens OR I'm leaving YOUR azz at the bar.'

If she didn't leave with him, he should get in the car, drive home. When she finally gets home after catching a ride with whomever, he should inquire SERIOUSLY as to whether she expects to remain married; if she DOES, what is she planning to do to rectify matters?


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## 2ntnuf

That's what I was thinking, but wasn't sure if that was alright to say. Thank you sssooooooo much SGW.


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## jfv

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> I agree with Cosmos on this!
> 
> As a woman, I would see this as P-Whipped behavior, not MANLY behavior. YOUR WIFE is the one who should be shutting this down.
> 
> If you jump up and run to her every time some other male comes sniffing around her, whaddya wanna bet she increases this behavior JUST to watch you come running....for the entertainment value?!?


What women need to understand is that sometimes it gets to the point where it is between the men. Being Alpha is not established with women, it is established and reinforced in conflict with other men. This is what PUA's don't understand about how a man responds in a situation like this. It is also a good thing for the other men in the environment to witness. That being said, after he deals with this guy, he needs to deal with his wife. Her job should be to avoid putting her partner in situations like this in the first place.


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## 2ntnuf

What's PUA? I agree with you.


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## jfv

Pick up artis's always advise guys in relationships to act aloof when another guy aproaches thier woman. The rationale is that it make them look controlling and insecure if they make their precence felt. These guy's are simply mimicking alpha behavior. They don't actually understand where it comes from which is why they tend to be misguided on this particular issue.


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## 2ntnuf

So you are basically saying that SGW is right? You are also saying that you need to do what? Don't listen when other guy's tell you how to act around your wife? Step in early. Make your presence known. Get in between them. Possibly get you and your wife out of there.

And in the case when you are facing guys you know are going to beat your arse cause they are twice your size, are blackbelts in competetive kick boxing, what do you do? Bluff like you're playing poker? Get in there and get the piss beat out of yourself?


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## jfv

Yes SGW is right. 
No. I never said anything about violence. Unless she is being attacked of course. 
One way to make your presence felt is by simply walking up to her and putting your arm around her. Some people refer to it as "marking your territory." 
Not the most PC way to put it but you get the picture.


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## 2ntnuf

Thank you.

Edit: Sorry I hijacked this thread for a while. I needed to hear this. I've been in this situation, done what was said and was faced with what I asked. I can't tell you how much it means to me that I have read it here. It just basically tells me I'm okay. That's what I needed to hear. Thank you, again.


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## jfv

2ntnuf said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Edit: Sorry I hijacked this thread for a while. I needed to hear this. I've been in this situation, done what was said and was faced with what I asked. I can't tell you how much it means to me that I have read it here. It just basically tells me I'm okay. That's what I needed to hear. Thank you, again.


Not enough men do this. You're okay in my book.


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## RandomDude

From my understanding protective should be encouraged, but NOT possessiveness. Protective = putting arms around her to claim her and show that she's yours. Most women do want that. Standing up for her when she's obviously the target of other men. It's different from possessiveness which is shackling her.

The thing is OP's wife could have been fitness testing as well to see how far she could go with other men before her husband stands up for her or how far other men could go and if he even cares. Pushing boundaries so to speak, in which case, he failed. However if she truly was fitness testing then he would have to call his wife out - what SlowlyGettingWiser suggested that his wife should do to give her husband some respect is sound.

@2ntnuf

For me personally, I don't care if they are twice my size, then again I've always been a fighter hehe, and I don't fight fair cause it rarely is. Still, when I confront it's not like I start elbowing them in the face, I tell them to back off, and if they want to start something, then I'll finish it alright. This scenario repeats itself whenever my wife and I have our date nights clubbing, normally she's the one telling them to fk off though and comes to me when guys won't leave her alone so I give them the hint and if they don't get it - it's disrespect and means they want to start **** so I confront them. She normally pulls me out before I whack them though - I've been through a few court charges and it did lay stress on her.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

> The thing is OP's wife could have been fitness testing as well to see how far she could go with other men before her husband stands up for her or how far other men could go and if he even cares. Pushing boundaries so to speak


As a woman, I say this is EXACTLY what she was doing.

He warned her about it UP FRONT and requested she act appropriately. So that tells ME, she's pulled this before!

Then she shines it all off with excuses in which she bears NONE of the responsibility!

She's playing games to make HERSELF look more attractive at the expense of her husband looking more ineffectual. SHAME ON HER! Very immature!


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## McMuffin

Damn, all this in one night! Hehe.. Well, there are always guys at the bar that do not know me or my wife. I do not want to be so controlling as to tell her not to get away from me, I only want the respect I deserve as her husband and father of her kids. I treat her with the utmost respect and so demand the same thing. This guy would likely piss his pants if I walked up to him and confronted him about his intentions. I am no badass, I am intimidating and use it to my advantage when necessary. In the past I would throw the elbows around if I even thought another man was trying to pick up my girl, but now we are married and have 3 kids, so I stay more reserved nowadays. This particular guy doesnt know me at all. He only knows my wife because he had the hots for my sister, who is incidentally also gorgeous. My wife and my sister are best friends and used to go to the bar together. My sister is a little badass and is banned from the bar so now my wife only goes when I go, which is maybe once a month now. When we first started going, we went about 3 times a month, and I hadnoticed this guy always approaching her and at first I thought he was talking to her about my sister. Then I caught him always watching her and looking for her, so I playfully asked her about him, and she said he is just a kid who likes to be seen talking to a pretty girl. Since starting the MMSLP, thats why I mentioned it to her, kind of like stepping up, setting the boundary. Reading the comments hear puts me a little more at ease.

The friend I was there with is 6'6" and 230, not fat, tattoo'd up, and burly. He has been my best friend for the past 16 years, and he even mentioned he would lay the smack down if I told him to. It isnt that guy I was upset about, it was my wife. She cant be mean to people, it has always been her personality, however, that doesnt give her a pass to allow such behavior from other men.


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## RandomDude

Demand the respect, you say you do but I'm not seeing it, you've done your part for the marriage, she is not doing hers. SlowlyGettingWiser is correct; you are getting hit with the jealousy game. My wife and I have alot of experience with this as well.

You either play it back - which is rather toxic, and can only be non-toxic if boundaries are in play. Boundaries are NOT being respected at the moment so I do not recommend this, it won't be a game it would be war. Or, the alternative and my suggestion is that you put the foot down on it. No wishy washy crap can be risked in this game. 

As for intimidation; use it. Confront him and let him sh-t his pants. I always found it amusing myself. Be calm and law-abiding but be ready, and do what you have to do. If he's a decent enough bloke you should be able to come to some form of understanding man to man. If not he had it coming and you did what you had to do.

EDIT: Or of course you can just deal directly with your wife because she's the one who's not doing her part. Me - I wouldn't be able to resist proving a point to this guy, but that's just me hehe. I don't take disrespect like this well.

Anyways I'm glad though that you're understanding this. I sure hope you do the right thing and stop this from getting out of hand.


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## McMuffin

Indeed RD! 

I wont let it get out of hand. Saturday night we are going to the casino for my birthday. Many of our friends are going to go and I will remember this thread when there. If this guy somehow shows up, I will approach him and let him know what I observed and what I think about it. If she gets upset, oh well, she will get over it.


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## RandomDude

Great! Good luck mate, and happy bday!


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## McMuffin

RandomDude said:


> Great! Good luck mate, and happy bday!


Thank you sir!


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## Saki

McMuffin said:


> If she gets upset, oh well, she will get over it.


This, and the way you choose to write it, speaks volumes. 

You likely won't admit it to us, or to yourself, but from reading this and other threads, the semantics your subconscious uses when writing and the issues you choose to discuss, leave a lot of clues.

After reading these forums more closely the last few months, I've decided that MMSL has a fatal flaw. There is one underlying concept which is never addressed, and instantly makes the MAP ineffective: 

Craving approval from your wife.

Your wife's iphone addiction, this incident at the bar, it's all about perceived disapproval from your wife. You've added a confusing and unnecessary parameter to your decision making: would my wife approve of this??

It was alluded to earlier (by Deejo), but no one decided to spell it out, so I will (and McMuffin appears to have totally missed it):

_Your wife puts a higher value on not being rude to this younger man at the bar than she puts on the boundries her husband has demanded in her marriage._

Ouch man.

What are you going to do about it?

All this back and forth discussion about what you should have done in the moment or to this guy is purely a way to distract you from the real, painful issue at hand.


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## east2west

If she is giving her attention to others while you are focused mostly on her, hanging off her like a barnacle, that's pu$$y whipped behavior. Go talk to your other (preferably female) friends and let her have some space.

If you insert yourself between her and any other man that talks to your wife, even when he doesn't seem to have any bad intentions, that's controlling.

But if you have identified a specific guy who seems to always approach your wife every time you turn your back, you should not hesitate to get in there and put a stop to the conversation. 

He only approaches her when you are not there. That means he is afraid of you. Therefore, if you approach while he is trying to talk to her it's going to make him extremely uncomfortable. You don't have to become physically or verbally violent to have the desired effect. The fear that he will feel is a hard wired response. I think if you do this well it will not come to a verbal or physical confrontation. If it does your best course of action is to get the hell out of there, WITH YOUR WIFE, NOT WITHOUT, LIKE SGW WAS SAYING.

But if you find yourself in this situation regularly (it seems you do) then yes your wife is doing something extremely stupid and selfish, putting you in a dangerous situation just to get her rocks off on being fought over. You need to be extremely clear that you will not be married to someone that would do that to her husband. 

It doesn't matter how good looking you are, there is no excuse for disrespecting and endangering your spouse.


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## east2west

In the old days women were considered incapable of turning down advances from men, and therefore were not allowed to interact with any men without their husbands present.

In the new world women are supposed to be able to make their own choices and therefore should be free to talk with anyone they want. 

Your wife seems to want one foot in the old world and one foot in the new one. I would insist that she make a choice. Either she stays at home barefoot and pregnant or she learns how to shut down the flirting frat guys at the bar.


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## McMuffin

Saki said:


> This, and the way you choose to write it, speaks volumes.
> 
> You likely won't admit it to us, or to yourself, but from reading this and other threads, the semantics your subconscious uses when writing and the issues you choose to discuss, leave a lot of clues.
> 
> After reading these forums more closely the last few months, I've decided that MMSL has a fatal flaw. There is one underlying concept which is never addressed, and instantly makes the MAP ineffective:
> 
> Craving approval from your wife.
> 
> Your wife's iphone addiction, this incident at the bar, it's all about perceived disapproval from your wife. You've added a confusing and unnecessary parameter to your decision making: would my wife approve of this??
> 
> It was alluded to earlier (by Deejo), but no one decided to spell it out, so I will (and McMuffin appears to have totally missed it):
> 
> _Your wife puts a higher value on not being rude to this younger man at the bar than she puts on the boundries her husband has demanded in her marriage._
> 
> Ouch man.
> 
> What are you going to do about it?
> 
> All this back and forth discussion about what you should have done in the moment or to this guy is purely a way to distract you from the real, painful issue at hand.


Very true, I know the real issue at hand-my boundaries and seeing that they are adhered to, but I see the "doing something in the moment" or "to the guy" as part of manning up. So I learn both in this thread. I think that my wife has long since been the leader of the relationship and will take quite a while for her to let that go. I have already began making decisions instead of asking what she wants to do, or not saying "I dont know" to her requests on what I want for dinner. I already feel better, and have started caring less about whether or not she will get upset about a decision I make. Yes, I used to seek her approval for fear of her being upset, and then that affecting other aspects of our marriage, mostly sex. I have been working out, spending more time out in the shop working on the hotrod, or the gym, and going out with my buds more. The hardest thing right now, is that I see the "what the **** is going on here.." look in her eyes and I know it is stiring mystery in her mind. Her changes the past few weeks have been growing her hair out longer because I like it long, and she actually initiated sex twice already. The only changes I have made have been the "me" changes. I am still respectful and deny her nothing, but seemingly I am less available to be at her becking call everyday. It is harder to get out of that "seeking her approval" mind set, but I am getting there.


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## Saki

McMuffin said:


> It is harder to get out of that "seeking her approval" mind set, but I am getting there.


This is a gillion times more important than what you are going to do when some guy is talking to someone she is talking to at a bar.

I just want to make that point very explicitly.


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## east2west

McMuffin said:


> Very true, I know the real issue at hand-my boundaries and seeing that they are adhered to, but I see the "doing something in the moment" or "to the guy" as part of manning up. So I learn both in this thread. I think that my wife has long since been the leader of the relationship and will take quite a while for her to let that go. I have already began making decisions instead of asking what she wants to do, or not saying "I dont know" to her requests on what I want for dinner. I already feel better, and have started caring less about whether or not she will get upset about a decision I make. Yes, I used to seek her approval for fear of her being upset, and then that affecting other aspects of our marriage, mostly sex. I have been working out, spending more time out in the shop working on the hotrod, or the gym, and going out with my buds more. The hardest thing right now, is that I see the "what the **** is going on here.." look in her eyes and I know it is stiring mystery in her mind. Her changes the past few weeks have been growing her hair out longer because I like it long, and she actually initiated sex twice already. The only changes I have made have been the "me" changes. I am still respectful and deny her nothing, but seemingly I am less available to be at her becking call everyday. It is harder to get out of that "seeking her approval" mind set, but I am getting there.


Awesome. Keep it going. Your first line of defense is always the connection you have with your wife, and her genuine respect for you, that makes other men uninteresting to her.


----------



## KanDo

McMuffin said:


> Indeed RD!
> 
> I wont let it get out of hand. Saturday night we are going to the casino for my birthday. Many of our friends are going to go and I will remember this thread when there. If this guy somehow shows up, I will approach him and let him know what I observed and what I think about it. If she gets upset, oh well, she will get over it.


*Stop acting the fool!* Your problem isn't this guy! You can't be around your wife 24x7 running off all the want-to-be' s! *Your problem is with your wife*. You have been given the correct advice already but choose not to place the problem where it belongs. You have told your wife what your boundaries are. it is entirely in her power to shut these advances down. She has chosen to not do so. And, so far, you have chosen to tolerate it. 

Next time this happens, as was already suggested, you should tell her it is time to go. If she balks, leave her standing at the bar! Tell her you will not be disrespected further. If the feelings of her acquaintences are more important then her spouse's, then you will be happy to pack her belongings so she can devote all her time to her friends.

Stop getting distracted by the guy. Look at the source of your issue.


----------



## Cosmos

KanDo said:


> Next time this happens, as
> Stop getting distracted by the guy. Look at the source of your issue.


:iagree:

Your problem begins and ends with your W's behaviour - not other men. 

Unattached men will always respond to an attractive flirty woman. An attractive, attached woman will have the common sense not to encourage them.


----------



## Saki

Cosmos said:


> Your problem begins and ends with your W's behaviour - not other men.


I catagorically disagree.

His problem begins and ends with his own behavior. 

It's the only thing under his control.


----------



## Ikaika

McMuffin said:


> I am great with confrontation. I have no issues letting anyone know when the line has been crossed. I try to stay reserved and think more about things that piss me off and how to react, rather than acting before thinking.


It may be just me, or it has more to do with my culture, I would would have said something to this guy who is apparently trying to pick up your wife... "Hey, I know what you are up to and that's my wife" in a commanding and stern voice. It is meant as much for him as it is for your wife. Make sure everyone at the table hears it. It does not have to result in any physical confrontation but you need to spell out the boundaries which are being stepped over.


----------



## McMuffin

drerio said:


> It may be just me, or it has more to do with my culture, I would would have said something to this guy who is apparently trying to pick up your wife... "Hey, I know what you are up to and that's my wife" in a commanding and stern voice. It is meant as much for him as it is for your wife. Make sure everyone at the table hears it. It does not have to result in any physical confrontation but you need to spell out the boundaries which are being stepped over.


I know, I found myself examining all consequences of me acting in this manner. Basically, the "wife approval" things wasnt there, however, I thought of being asked not to come back to the bar, embrassing her (small town), accused of Bullying the guy, and since we are active catholics(she is a catholic school teacher), then I weighed her/my reputation also. 

However, after simply reading what I just wrote ^ I see that is pretty ridiculous to "weigh" those things instead of handling the real issues....I just slapped myself.


----------



## Ikaika

McMuffin said:


> I know, I found myself examining all consequences of me acting in this manner. Basically, the "wife approval" things wasnt there, however, I thought of being asked not to come back to the bar, embrassing her (small town), accused of Bullying the guy, and since we are active catholics(she is a catholic school teacher), then I weighed her/my reputation also.
> 
> However, after simply reading what I just wrote ^ I see that is pretty ridiculous to "weigh" those things instead of handling the real issues....I just slapped myself.


Your reputation is already in question, but I think you noticed that already. If you see what this guy is doing, trust me others are seeing it too. I don't see where telling another man he is crossing boundaries you are not comfortable with as bullying, but again I don't know all the details of the situation. 

If you get kicked out and asked not to return, in your same commanding voice you say "she is with me, so we are both leaving and not returning". I would say that would do the opposite of tarnishing your reputation. It may just be me, but that is how I would deal with it. I tend towards avoiding physical confrontations and sometimes setting boundaries does just that. 

Best of luck to you.


----------



## Faithful Wife

When I first started dating my husband (after we became exclusive and bf/gf) he made it very clear to me what kind of behavior he would or would not accept from me. And what you are describing your wife doing is exactly what he told me was not acceptable. While the first few times he said this I thought he was being insecure and controlling....at that time, I did not appreciate the value of a man who is possessive of "what is his" and who had no qualms about stating it clearly. He is not insecure or controlling, it turns out. He just protects his assets. I eventually came to love this about him. He will not stand there idly while I go chat up some other man, and if he did, I would not respect him as much (nor be as attracted to him).

I am attractive enough that I do get flirted with or hit on in public a fair amount. But it is completely under MY control how I respond, or rather, don't respond. It is very simple...you just don't make eye contact with strange men. I can see them in my peripheral or through my lashes as my eyes are glancing at the ground. I can see that they are trying to gain eye contact with me, and I simply do not allow that eye contact to happen.

My husband sees me doing this all the time. Say I leave the table to use the restroom. I keep my head up and face forward, but I never make eye contact with anyone on the way. A guy or two might be checking me out as I walk by, trying to make eye contact, and my husband is watching also. What he sees is a wife who cares NOTHING about the glances of other men, who cares NOTHING about being "friendly" to strange men, and who respects him and loves him so much she doesn't need or seek the validation of being glanced at.

I'm not saying you will easily be able to have this dynamic in your marriage, since by now you already know your wife values being "seen" and flirted with by other men. But I'm trying to show you how I feel about my husband and how part of the reason I respect him so much is because he didn't hold back at all in the beginning of our relationship. He told me exactly what he wanted and expected from me in this regard and that made me want to "behave" for him because the alpha in him makes me want to submit and be his only.


----------



## SadSamIAm

drerio said:


> It may be just me, or it has more to do with my culture, I would would have said something to this guy who is apparently trying to pick up your wife... "Hey, I know what you are up to and that's my wife" in a commanding and stern voice. It is meant as much for him as it is for your wife. Make sure everyone at the table hears it. It does not have to result in any physical confrontation but you need to spell out the boundaries which are being stepped over.



I disagree with this. I think something more has to happen than the two of them talking. Other people at the table may not know that this guy has been approaching your wife on other nights. If you say something like this because your wife is simply talking to another man, you will look insecure. You will look like you don't trust your wife. Don't do this in front of other people.

Because it has happened a number of times, you may have to talk to this guy. If just the two of them are talking, I have no problem with you going up and asking the guy why he approaches your wife at the bar every time you are there and only when you are not with your wife. You may want to do this when your wife is there or you might want to talk to him when it is just the two of you.

I agree with others that the problem is your wife needs to deal with this. You can't always be there. But since she refuses to, you may have to talk to this guy. Make sure your wife knows that you aren't happy with her allowing the flirting to go on.


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## McMuffin

Hypothetical here, but when I think back in my mind about how this would play out the next time we went to the bar. On the way to the bar, I would still tell her;

Look, do not get up and excuse yourself from the table if we are all engaged in the same conversation. But, if your not part of a particular issue and you would like to go talk to a girl friend of yours, by all means do that, but you need to push away any guy who approaches you, if you do not shut that behavior down and make it clear to them, then I will. I will not tolerate this any longer. I realize you think it's flattering, but I find it horribly disrespectful to me. If "Mr.BoyA" approaches you again, you simply excuse yourself and come sit back down at the table with me. I will then handle it from there. 

Honestly now, I think that if I set this boundary up like this, my wife will just say "whatever, take me home" 

So what should I do? My gut tells me that I should take her ass home, then go to the bar myself....


----------



## east2west

Let's see, you have a wife who will not agree to avoid flirting with other men right in front of you.

Yes, I think you would be justified in dropping her a$$ at home and enjoying a night with your friends.


----------



## Saki

McMuffin said:


> Honestly now, I think that if I set this boundary up like this, my wife will just say "whatever, take me home"


Here you are again.

Speculating about your wife's approval.

Why don't you just tell her what is in your heart and let the chips fall where they may????

This pattern of behavior is incredibly controlling and blocks any sort of true intimacy. You are AFRAID of showing your true self to your wife because you FEAR her disapproval.

Deal with THAT, not this stupid pointless completely insignificant situation at the bar!!


----------



## Faithful Wife

McMuffin, did you see my post on the last page?


----------



## Ikaika

McMuffin said:


> Hypothetical here, but when I think back in my mind about how this would play out the next time we went to the bar. On the way to the bar, I would still tell her;
> 
> Look, do not get up and excuse yourself from the table if we are all engaged in the same conversation. But, if your not part of a particular issue and you would like to go talk to a girl friend of yours, by all means do that, but you need to push away any guy who approaches you, if you do not shut that behavior down and make it clear to them, then I will. I will not tolerate this any longer. I realize you think it's flattering, but I find it horribly disrespectful to me. If "Mr.BoyA" approaches you again, you simply excuse yourself and come sit back down at the table with me. I will then handle it from there.
> 
> Honestly now, I think that if I set this boundary up like this, my wife will just say "whatever, take me home"
> 
> So what should I do? My gut tells me that I should take her ass home, then go to the bar myself....


So you are saying your wife doesn't already understand the boundaries that you are uncomfortable with and you need to explain them on the way to the bar? If you had to have this second conversation as you suggest above, I would drive past the bar and just go out to a nice quiet dinner. Just the two of you. Your marriage is more important than this rendezvous with friends. Again, just my opinion.


----------



## McMuffin

Faithful Wife said:


> McMuffin, did you see my post on the last page?


I did and ironically, my wife used to do the same thing. She didnt used to care that other guys watched or looked at her. My issue is that I neglected to keep that in check. And so.....here I am in this forum.... I would love it if my wife would act this way just to please me.


----------



## McMuffin

drerio said:


> So you are saying your wife doesn't already understand the boundaries that you are uncomfortable with and you need to explain them on the way to the bar? If you had to have this second conversation as you suggest above, I would drive past the bar and just go out to a nice quiet dinner. Just the two of you. Your marriage is more important than this rendezvous with friends. Again, just my opinion.


Yes, sad isnt it, but I was a nice guy, need I say more? lol, so now I am just setting my boundaries and manning up and working on me. Sadly enough, this I do have to go through, and I know it isnt good. We have been getting out more and she is changing her mindset slowly to how she used to be, whether she realizes it or not.


----------



## Faithful Wife

"I would love it if my wife would act this way just to please me."

So you have to start somewhere. It will not be an easy transition because she is not used to "wanting to please you".

However, a tip from a woman...when a woman is deliberately enjoying attention from other men in front of her husband, there usually IS a tiny part of her - although she might deny this at the time - that subconsciously WANTS her man to be noticing this. Now, typically the woman will not realize herself why she wants him to notice this. She thinks something along the lines of "I hope he knows how lucky he is".

But deep inside of her, she also wishes that her man was the type who would chase off all predators coming around her. Again, she will deny this, but it is instinctual for her to feel this way. The fact that you have not chased off the predators previously tells her that you don't realize how "valuable" she is.

My husband would no sooner allow me to flit and flirt around a bar than he would leave a brief case full of cash unattended on a bar stool. Can you imagine how this makes me feel valued?

This is a dynamic you can change over time, with effort and consistent actions.


----------



## McMuffin

east2west said:


> Let's see, you have a wife who will not agree to avoid flirting with other men right in front of you.
> 
> Yes, I think you would be justified in dropping her a$$ at home and enjoying a night with your friends.


Now, she does not flirt back with them (that I observed) but people would tell me if she did. (small town). She just likes it and doesnt see it as disrespectful behavior. She see's it as the other mans responsibility. Her personality has always been that she cant just be blatently rude to people. I am not taking up for her, as it doesnt mean she can't effectively handle that sort of situation. I am just stating that if I saw or heard of her flirting around I would have her **** sitting outside in a NY minute.


----------



## McMuffin

Faithful Wife said:


> "I would love it if my wife would act this way just to please me."
> 
> So you have to start somewhere. It will not be an easy transition because she is not used to "wanting to please you".
> 
> However, a tip from a woman...when a woman is deliberately enjoying attention from other men in front of her husband, there usually IS a tiny part of her - although she might deny this at the time - that subconsciously WANTS her man to be noticing this. Now, typically the woman will not realize herself why she wants him to notice this. She thinks something along the lines of "I hope he knows how lucky he is".
> 
> But deep inside of her, she also wishes that her man was the type who would chase off all predators coming around her. Again, she will deny this, but it is instinctual for her to feel this way. The fact that you have not chased off the predators previously tells her that you don't realize how "valuable" she is.
> 
> My husband would no sooner allow me to flit and flirt around a bar than he would leave a brief case full of cash unattended on a bar stool. Can you imagine how this makes me feel valued?
> 
> This is a dynamic you can change over time, with effort and consistent actions.


Yes, I realize this will take time, but I still can't help but wanting it yesterday.


----------



## McMuffin

Faithful Wife said:


> "I would love it if my wife would act this way just to please me."
> 
> So you have to start somewhere. It will not be an easy transition because she is not used to "wanting to please you".
> 
> However, a tip from a woman...when a woman is deliberately enjoying attention from other men in front of her husband, there usually IS a tiny part of her - although she might deny this at the time - that subconsciously WANTS her man to be noticing this. Now, typically the woman will not realize herself why she wants him to notice this. She thinks something along the lines of "I hope he knows how lucky he is".
> 
> But deep inside of her, she also wishes that her man was the type who would chase off all predators coming around her. Again, she will deny this, but it is instinctual for her to feel this way. The fact that you have not chased off the predators previously tells her that you don't realize how "valuable" she is.
> 
> My husband would no sooner allow me to flit and flirt around a bar than he would leave a brief case full of cash unattended on a bar stool. Can you imagine how this makes me feel valued?
> 
> This is a dynamic you can change over time, with effort and consistent actions.


And honestly, I see this as an eye opener about how she is viewing this. I think she does want me to know how valuable she is.... She keeps an immaculate house, everything is always clean, laundry is always done, dishes always out of the sink. She is a great woman, I think that I didnt appreciate her enough and we got into a rut and so now I am going out more and paying more attention to her, working on me and her head is spinning.


----------



## Cosmos

Saki said:


> I catagorically disagree.
> 
> His problem begins and ends with his own behavior.
> 
> It's the only thing under his control.


That is, of course, your prerogative. 

IMO, it isn't the OP's behaviour that is at fault, it is his W's. 

However, we do teach people how to treat us, and it is up to the OP to teach his W that he will not tolerate her blatant disrespect.


----------



## east2west

McMuffin you should give some advice to this guy. His problem is like yours but WAY worse.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/64522-emotionally-cheated-need-advice.html


----------



## McMuffin

east2west said:


> McMuffin you should give some advice to this guy. His problem is like yours but WAY worse.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/64522-emotionally-cheated-need-advice.html


Read it and it seems like he relives it everyday. I have been actively working on the me things for months. Looks like he is just dwelling. I posted in his thread.

I used to feel like him, only instead of another guy, it was anyTHING but me. I came after everything else, the kids (of course), the chores, the house, her job, her friends, her family, my family, her iphone, her habits, then there was me at rock bottom. Now, I can say that I am closer to the top, I am not in the top 3 yet, but I am getting there.


----------



## Saki

Cosmos said:


> However, we do teach people how to treat us, and it is up to the OP to teach his W that he will not tolerate her blatant disrespect.


Exactly the point I'm getting at. McMuffin can control how he handles the situation but he has no control over what his wife can do.

Boundries are about what McMuffin is going to do. Not about what his wife is going to do.


----------



## KanDo

McMuffin,

You still don't get it and , in my opinion, several of the previous posters also don't get it. A confident alpha male does not need to address a want-to-be suitor who is trying to talk to his wife. You can't be around your wife 24x7. You will look weak and foolish to others in the bar if you intervene in this silly game. More importantly, you will look needy and incompetent as a man to your wife. A man with good self-esteem is not worried about these guys and also isn't worried about what his wife thinks. He states simply that he views tolerance of this flirting by his wife as disrespectful and unacceptable. Period. If observed, we are leaving. If she doesn't leave than she can stay as long as she wishes. You will take the time to box up her sh1t. 

You can't control what she does or what anyone else does. You can only control *your behavior *and what *you will tolerate*. Stop even considering the guys. Deal with what you will tolerate and with communicating that clearly


----------



## McMuffin

KanDo said:


> McMuffin,
> 
> You still don't get it and , in my opinion, several of the previous posters also don't get it. A confident alpha male does not need to address a want-to-be suitor who is trying to talk to his wife. You can't be around your wife 24x7. You will look weak and foolish to others in the bar if you intervene in this silly game. More importantly, you will look needy and incompetent as a man to your wife. A man with good self-esteem is not worried about these guys and also isn't worried about what his wife thinks. He states simply that he views tolerance of this flirting by his wife as disrespectful and unacceptable. Period. If observed, we are leaving. If she doesn't leave than she can stay as long as she wishes. You will take the time to box up her sh1t.
> 
> You can't control what she does or what anyone else does. You can only control *your behavior *and what *you will tolerate*. Stop even considering the guys. Deal with what you will tolerate and with communicating that clearly


what you say makes perfect sense..... I understand the importance of focusing on the boundary and not the guy(s) at the bar.


----------



## east2west

KanDo said:


> A confident alpha male does not need to address a want-to-be suitor who is trying to talk to his wife.


This is great if you are PUA. Who cares about one girl when there are tons of others ripe for the picking. It is not appropriate however in a committed relationship. There are going to be ups and downs in the level of attraction between any two people and at some point you may have to have to step up and protect what is belongs to you.

If you react to someone making a move on your spouse with indifference, there are four possibilities.

1) You are so "alpha" that other men cannot pose a threat.
2) You are so afraid of confrontation that you won't do anything to stop someone else from f*cking your wife.
3) You are completely unaware of what is going on.
4) You honestly don't give a sh!t.

Everyone who witnesses the event decides for themselves which camp you are in.


----------



## Saki

And why do we care what other poeple think?

I'm married. There are plenty of other girls ripe for the picking. If the one I'm married to can't handle her sh1t, I'm going to go pick another one.

This is the entire basis of the MMSL approach, by the way.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I agree with east2west. Although if in a situation where a man is flirting with me, my H will deal with me not the guy....he will also shoot the guy a "look" that says "back off, dude". He never has to do any more than shoot this look because he is very alpha and very large. But the point being, he has no problem making it clear to everyone, me, any guy talking to me, and everyone else who can see, that I belong to him and he doesn't share.

My H is confident in all situations and knows no other male has any chance with me at all. That doesn't mean he will idly sit by and watch me disrepsect him NOR will he idly sit by and watch another man trying to approach me.


----------



## east2west

Saki said:


> And why do we care what other poeple think?
> 
> I'm married. There are plenty of other girls ripe for the picking. If the one I'm married to can't handle her sh1t, I'm going to go pick another one.
> 
> This is the entire basis of the MMSL approach, by the way.


You are wrong, MMSL does not advocate indifference in these situations. 

Mate Guarding For The Win (And Wetness) | Married Man Sex Life

Mate Guarding / Jealousy: Alpha, Beta, A Necessary Evil, or What? - Married Man Sex Life Forum


----------



## Saki

This attitude is the central concept of MMSL:

Who cares about one girl when there are tons of others ripe for the picking. It is not appropriate however in a committed relationship....


ENH wrong, you want your wife scared you have a foot out the door. In fact it's the secret to a happy marriage, at least some would say.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Saki - I am married to a natural alpha male. The "secret" you are talking about is not acheived by childish antics like POA crap. The "secret" - the fact that I know my husband could easily nab another woman - does in fact make me know his worth. I know he is valuable to other females because I have eyes, I am a perceptive female, and the upstanding, honorable way he treats me shows me his worth, and I know other females would value him as well.

However, it is never a one sided worth, or this "secret" will not work. My H knows I can easily nab another man as well. He knows my worth the market.

Both of us having high value on the open market is evident to the other. Yes, we both cherish each other a bit more due to this. BUT...neither of us do some kind of stupid tricks to "show" our value on the open market. If we did so, we would simply look lame and silly to each other.

You are implying, I think, that a man, according to MMSL, should "game" his way into appearing that he has worth on the open market.

But a man who DOES have worth on the open market needs to do nothing to "prove" this....it is simply evident.

True alpha males don't need to read books to figure out how to "have game".


----------



## Cosmos

Faithful Wife said:


> Saki - I am married to a natural alpha male. The "secret" you are talking about is not acheived by childish antics like POA crap. The "secret" - the fact that I know my husband could easily nab another woman - does in fact make me know his worth. I know he is valuable to other females because I have eyes, I am a perceptive female, and the upstanding, honorable way he treats me shows me his worth, and I know other females would value him as well.
> 
> However, it is never a one sided worth, or this "secret" will not work. My H knows I can easily nab another man as well. He knows my worth the market.
> 
> Both of us having high value on the open market is evident to the other. Yes, we both cherish each other a bit more due to this. BUT...neither of us do some kind of stupid tricks to "show" our value on the open market. If we did so, we would simply look lame and silly to each other.
> 
> You are implying, I think, that a man, according to MMSL, should "game" his way into appearing that he has worth on the open market.
> 
> But a man who DOES have worth on the open market needs to do nothing to "prove" this....it is simply evident.
> 
> True alpha males don't need to read books to figure out how to "have game".


:iagree:

My partner is an easy going alpha who indulges me in many things, but there's no way I would dare (or want to) behave the way the OP's W is doing. He wouldn't play silly games with me, but I would undoubtedly lose value in his eyes and he would no doubt tell me to either shape up or ship out.

The OP needs to set very clear boundaries with his W, and let her know in no uncertain terms that there will be consequences should she not stick to them.


----------



## KanDo

east2west said:


> This is great if you are PUA. Who cares about one girl when there are tons of others ripe for the picking. It is not appropriate however in a committed relationship. There are going to be ups and downs in the level of attraction between any two people and at some point you may have to have to step up and protect what is belongs to you.
> 
> If you react to someone making a move on your spouse with indifference, there are four possibilities.
> 
> 1) You are so "alpha" that other men cannot pose a threat.
> 2) You are so afraid of confrontation that you won't do anything to stop someone else from f*cking your wife.
> 3) You are completely unaware of what is going on.
> 4) You honestly don't give a sh!t.
> 
> Everyone who witnesses the event decides for themselves which camp you are in.


We will have to agree to disagree. A husband running up to every man that approaches his wife is an insecure beta. A secure man expects and demands his wife will control these situation. It's the husband's responsibility to intervene if the loser doesn't get the message.


----------



## jfv

No where in the natural world does the Alpha sit by when another male crosses into his 'territory'. That includes us. Again, Alpha is gained througout your life mainly through your interactions and your comfort in conflict with other men. The confindence that is gained throug these social interactions which can start as early as an elementary school yard is part of what women naturally respond to.
PUA's, who are mostly betas who learned how to mimick some alpha behavior don't get this. They did not come to their 'alphaness' in this way. It is contrived. This is why they advocate the aloofness thing in these situations. They fail to realize that it is sometimes about the other guy. Because their goal is to get laid they have set up a system where the woman gets to decide whether or not he is alpha by choosing to sleep with him. This is backwards. By the way, they should not be giving relationship advice. I actually posted about this at MMSL in June. Under My real name. Eric V.


----------



## jfv

jfv said:


> No where in the natural world does the Alpha sit by when another male crosses into his 'territory'. That includes us. Again, Alpha is gained througout your life mainly through your interactions and your comfort in conflict with other men. The confindence that is gained throug these social interactions which can start as early as an elementary school yard is part of what women naturally respond to.
> PUA's, who are mostly betas who learned how to mimick some alpha behavior don't get this. They did not come to their 'alphaness' in this way. It is contrived. This is why they advocate the aloofness thing in these situations. They fail to realize that it is sometimes about the other guy. Because their goal is to get laid they have set up a system where the woman gets to decide whether or not he is alpha by choosing to sleep with him. This is backwards. By the way, they should not be giving relationship advice. I actually posted about this at MMSL in June. Under My real name. Eric V.


Sorry, it was August.

http://marriedmansexlife.com/2012/08/why-the-wannabe-other-man-tests-you-first/


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## KanDo

AS I said, we will have to agree to disagree. I stand by my statement that A husband running up to every man that approaches his wife is an insecure beta. Thread jack over


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## jfv

KanDo said:


> AS I said, we will have to agree to disagree. I stand by my statement that A husband running up to every man that approaches his wife is an insecure beta. Thread jack over


Threadjack??? This debate is directly related to the issue the OP is posting about. 
I think he's getting alot from us defending and articulating our positions on mate guarding. 
Mcmuffin, If i'm wrong about this, then I apologize.


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## east2west

KanDo said:


> AS I said, we will have to agree to disagree. I stand by my statement that A husband running up to every man that approaches his wife is an insecure beta. Thread jack over


I agree with that statement as you stated it. However the OP's situation is different. The problem is with one specific man who he has previously identified as having a strong interest in his wife. We are not suggesting he should interfere in every single conversation with anyone at the bar.


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## Iwant2know

My wife taught me a long time ago when I wanted to frequent bars and go out with the guys,etc. to "never put yourself in a compromising situation." Of course, I was out there with friends and at the time I thought she was being "anti." But, as I have lived some more, I see that she was right.

Even though you are there with your wife you are at a bar, you are putting your relationship in a compromising situation, especially with her being a social butterfly. 

If you continue to frequent places like this, you are going to constantly have to fight these battles and ultimately, it is going to place a wedge in your marriage.


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## Faithful Wife

"If you continue to frequent places like this, you are going to constantly have to fight these battles and ultimately, it is going to place a wedge in your marriage. "

I agree with this. If you are frequently going to bars together, this is not really a healthy environment for a married couple to be in. Once in awhile, but not frequently. How often do you do the bar night thing?


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## McMuffin

Faithful Wife said:


> I agree with this. If you are frequently going to bars together, this is not really a healthy environment for a married couple to be in. Once in awhile, but not frequently. How often do you do the bar night thing?


We may go once a month, maybe twice depending on what occasions are during that time... We do not go often, but usually over the holidays, we will go a little more often with family members who come in from out of town, etc.


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## McMuffin

And I am getting a hell of a lot of info from this, as I think many others are too it seems. I see Kando's point though, and I do not want to seem insecure, but from this thread I am seeing that whether to approach or not would be situational. Same guy repeatedly, yes, it is time for me to make my presence felt, random guys walking up and walking away, no need to approach, let her handle them the way she should. If she doesn't then we leave.


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## Faithful Wife

Once or twice per month bar nights is a lot.


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## Saki

jfv said:


> Threadjack??? This debate is directly related to the issue the OP is posting about.
> I think he's getting alot from us defending and articulating our positions on mate guarding.
> Mcmuffin, If i'm wrong about this, then I apologize.


My point is that the issue this thread about is incredibly insignificant compared to the core issues that McMuffin is dealing with and therefore, at this point, should be the topic of zero discussion wrt McMuffin.

If McMuffin had his marriage in a really good spot, this situation would have never developed and therefore, who cares how you handle it??

So lets start dealing with the core issues instead of this insigificant, distracting issue.


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## Saki

Faithful Wife said:


> You are implying, I think, that a man, according to MMSL, should "game" his way into appearing that he has worth on the open market.
> 
> But a man who DOES have worth on the open market needs to do nothing to "prove" this....it is simply evident.
> 
> True alpha males don't need to read books to figure out how to "have game".


No, I'm implying that McMuffin needs to do whatever it takes to make himself have worth on the open market.

It needs to be geniune, from the heart worth.

Not everyone is born a true alpha male. So those that aren't, may choose to learn more about being closer to one.

How McMuffin deals with this situation in a bar is a great example of focusing on what "antics" or "tricks" are appropriate in a given, narrowly focused, insiginificant situation.

Instead, his actions should be a geniune reflection of his character. McMuffin, in an ideal world, would have the self esteem to trust his gut reaction and behave in a way that is consistant with his geniune character.

The fact that he is dwelling on this incident is a pretty good clue he didn't act in a way that is consistant with his true character.


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## Faithful Wife

I totally agree that all people should remain in their highest market values, even if in a relationship or a marriage. If we are attractive to others, we will be attrative to our spouse, too.

But McMuffin's open market value is not really the main problem here. I am pretty sure he could easily flit around a bar flirting with girls too and get a response from them. That isn't the issue.

The issue is his wife doesn't think he will man up if SHE flits around the bar, because so far, he hasn't.


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## McMuffin

I see your point saki. I know it was an issue of her behavior and me not enforcing my boundary. On the flip side, I didnt man up enough during this incident, so both sides have a valid point, however, the more important point is me setting and enforcing boundaries.

And yes, I could move around the bar as well and flirt and/or be flirted with also. The difference is that I am respectful of my marriage in that regard, whereas she wasn't.


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## lovelygirl

Faithful Wife said:


> "I would love it if my wife would act this way just to please me."
> 
> So you have to start somewhere. It will not be an easy transition because she is not used to "wanting to please you".
> 
> However, a tip from a woman...when a woman is deliberately enjoying attention from other men in front of her husband, there usually IS a tiny part of her - although she might deny this at the time - that subconsciously WANTS her man to be noticing this. Now, typically the woman will not realize herself why she wants him to notice this. She thinks something along the lines of "I hope he knows how lucky he is".
> 
> But deep inside of her, she also wishes that her man was the type who would chase off all predators coming around her. Again, she will deny this, but it is instinctual for her to feel this way. The fact that you have not chased off the predators previously tells her that you don't realize how "valuable" she is.
> 
> My husband would no sooner allow me to flit and flirt around a bar than he would leave a brief case full of cash unattended on a bar stool. Can you imagine how this makes me feel valued?
> 
> This is a dynamic you can change over time, with effort and consistent actions.


I love your posts! There's so much truthfulness!
A woman loves it when her partner keeps an eye on her. I used to "test" my ex from time to time to see how far he would allow me to go and approach men, I wanted to see how much he cared and how much alphaness there was in him. 
Women are not stupid and they know what they're doing...especially in cases like OP's wife.
As much as she loves attention from other men ...., at the same time she wants to see what her husband does to "protect" her and their relationship.
Most men dont realize when they are put to test by their women and there's nothing like a bigger turn OFF when the man fails to be firm and make clear his boundaries while being afriad of his woman's disapproval/reaction. 

I haven't read the whole thread til the end but wanted to express my agreement with the above excellent quoted post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

> Once or twice per month bar nights is a lot.


I disagree, it's TOTALLY subjective!


what is their general social life like
how old are children
where do they live
other opportunities to socialize

THESE are more important indicators than a set NUMBER of times/month.


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## 2ntnuf

saki,

I believe you are saying that the reaction to the flirtations is dependent upon the husband's core beliefs in handling conflict. Is this correct?

I also believe you are saying the response of the more alpha or confident male will be satisfying to him and the exact way he responds will only matter to him. Opinions won't sway his decision and his response is only right or wrong for him. Is that correct?

It seems as though it is better to realize something is amiss and act on these suspicions early. At what point do you decide it is time to take action? This brings up another question. At what point does it become badgering or lack of confidence? I think there is a fine line here I am trying to clarify.


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## Saki

2ntnuf said:


> I believe you are saying that the reaction to the flirtations is dependent upon the husband's core beliefs in handling conflict. Is this correct?


Core beliefs, yes. Not just core beliefs in handling conflict - although certainly including them



2ntnuf said:


> I also believe you are saying the response of the more alpha or confident male will be satisfying to him and the exact way he responds will only matter to him. Opinions won't sway his decision and his response is only right or wrong for him. Is that correct?


Yes. I don't like the use of the word alpha, because frankly it has been so overused and missued that it no longer really means anything. I prefer Dr Glovers term "integrated male". Which means a man who's actions are congruent with his belief system.

Subsequently, if his actions satisfy him, he would not be going to the internet to get second opinions on what he should have done.



2ntnuf said:


> It seems as though it is better to realize something is amiss and act on these suspicions early. At what point do you decide it is time to take action? This brings up another question. At what point does it become badgering or lack of confidence? I think there is a fine line here I am trying to clarify.


What time does he decide to take action? At the point when his belief system directs him to. This would be different for each person. And that's ok.

There is indeed a fine line, which is both blurry and relative to the perspective of the person looking at it.

So don't waste your time and energy trying to define it. Which is my advice to the OP as well.

The point at which it becomes lack of confidence is the same point at which it becomes codependent. When the actions of another person start to have an effect on yourself, and you find yourself obssessing over how to control the other person.


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## 2ntnuf

Saki said:


> Core beliefs, yes. Not just core beliefs in handling conflict - although certainly including them
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. I don't like the use of the word alpha, because frankly it has been so overused and missued that it no longer really means anything. I prefer Dr Glovers term "integrated male". Which means a man who's actions are congruent with his belief system.
> 
> 
> I only used that word since I did not know another term. I understand your reasoning and I agree.
> 
> Subsequently, if his actions satisfy him, he would not be going to the internet to get second opinions on what he should have done.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I thought so. I just did this, again. Well, I am learning, so I won't beat myself up. Thanks for pointing this out.
> 
> What time does he decide to take action? At the point when his belief system directs him to. This would be different for each person. And that's ok.
> 
> There is indeed a fine line, which is both blurry and relative to the perspective of the person looking at it.
> 
> So don't waste your time and energy trying to define it. Which is my advice to the OP as well.
> 
> The point at which it becomes lack of confidence is the same point at which it becomes codependent. When the actions of another person start to have an effect on yourself, and you find yourself obssessing over how to control the other person.



Ah, yes, this is what I was thinking, exactly. Yes. Make your decision based on your core beliefs. Act appropriately on them. Live with the consequences. I hope I have described this correctly. Thank you.


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## JTL

To the OP-I have been in this exact situation. Furthermore, my wife was/is eerily similar to yours. We don't find ourselves out nearly as much anymore though. Anyways, the W has always been friendly, mildly flirty, and seemingly incapable of being rude to men (other than me of course!). She went through a flirty phase, to which i finally put my foot down and told her to stop. She did. However, that didn't stop guys from flirting with her. She simply did not reciprocate a lot. She did not, however, blow them off either. That was always fine with me. It's an ego boost to be flirted with and i have flirted as well. We were both happy and confident with ourselves and each other so it was not an issue anymore. Well, except for this 1 guy. Someone we both know but my wife has known for a long time (same small town). This guy knows we are together but it doesn't stop him from from hitting on her everytime she is not by my side. She doesn't encourage him but she doesn't tell him to FO either. It's not in her nature. So this went on for a while and i brought it up, that i was annoyed by the situation. My wife assured me she wasn't interested or looking for attention from this guy but i found no solace in this. My problem wasn't my wife, it was this guy. I am uber confident and have no problems when guys flirt with my wife. Especially if they do not know her or me. But this guy-it drove me up the wall. So finally, one night before closing, everyone is milling around talking and i see him slide up to my wife and put his arm around her waist. That was it, i walked over and yelled "get your f'n hands off my wife or i am going to beat you senseless" He gives me the "Hey, we're friends, it's nothing, i've known her forever" to which i replied-"No, you're a POS who tries to pick her up everytime my back is turned when she is clearly not interested in you despite your pathetic efforts. If it doen't end i'm going to kick you ***. That was the last time it happened.
I'm not saying your situation is exactly the same or that you should handle it the way i did, but there is a time to be quiet, and a time to react. I don't consider myself some "alpha" and dictate my wife's behaviour but we all need to have a line in the sand that is not crossed. If it is crossed, someone needs to be held accountable and spoken to.


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## Saki

JTL said:


> So finally, one night before closing, everyone is milling around talking and i see him slide up to my wife and put his arm around her waist.


Heh...for all the preaching I do about following your core values and such...

This guy would have been picking his teeth up off the floor if I were in your shoes. 

My core values include "no other man touches my wife" and I get pretty riled up even thinking about myself in that situation.


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## MEM2020

JTL,
You handled this perfectly with the other man. Completely emasculated and intimidated him in front of your wife and a room full of other folks. 

If you had punched him, you might be in jail. And he might be comforting your wife in your absence. And you might lose your job and have trouble getting another one. Bad for long term marital stability. 

Saki's comment below was perfectly aligned with his situation at home which is that his wife walks all over him and he is angry about it. He likely thinks it is safer to redirect the anger at a third party despite the risk of jail and losing your job. 

------------
All that said. You need to be blunt with your wife. Men are wired to pursue. Unless a married woman nicely but firmly tells them to stop, her real message is: I like the attention, keep trying, you never know what might happen. 

Your wife is fully capable of learning to: point to her ring and say "excuse me:
followed by some action she needs to take which removes her from his company".

Could be "need to call my husband back", or "need to speak with a girl friend who is in the room, house, bar". 

She also needs to tell you if a guy is persisting after she does that. You don't have to threaten him explicitly the first time, you can just let him know you know what is happening. 

This whole "she is too nice" thing is ridiculous. She does not need to be rude to make this crap stop quickly. A man who can tell he has no chance, will give up quickly. 





JTL said:


> To the OP-I have been in this exact situation. Furthermore, my wife was/is eerily similar to yours. We don't find ourselves out nearly as much anymore though. Anyways, the W has always been friendly, mildly flirty, and seemingly incapable of being rude to men (other than me of course!). She went through a flirty phase, to which i finally put my foot down and told her to stop. She did. However, that didn't stop guys from flirting with her. She simply did not reciprocate a lot. She did not, however, blow them off either. That was always fine with me. It's an ego boost to be flirted with and i have flirted as well. We were both happy and confident with ourselves and each other so it was not an issue anymore. Well, except for this 1 guy. Someone we both know but my wife has known for a long time (same small town). This guy knows we are together but it doesn't stop him from from hitting on her everytime she is not by my side. She doesn't encourage him but she doesn't tell him to FO either. It's not in her nature. So this went on for a while and i brought it up, that i was annoyed by the situation. My wife assured me she wasn't interested or looking for attention from this guy but i found no solace in this. My problem wasn't my wife, it was this guy. I am uber confident and have no problems when guys flirt with my wife. Especially if they do not know her or me. But this guy-it drove me up the wall. So finally, one night before closing, everyone is milling around talking and i see him slide up to my wife and put his arm around her waist. That was it, i walked over and yelled "get your f'n hands off my wife or i am going to beat you senseless" He gives me the "Hey, we're friends, it's nothing, i've known her forever" to which i replied-"No, you're a POS who tries to pick her up everytime my back is turned when she is clearly not interested in you despite your pathetic efforts. If it doen't end i'm going to kick you ***. That was the last time it happened.
> I'm not saying your situation is exactly the same or that you should handle it the way i did, but there is a time to be quiet, and a time to react. I don't consider myself some "alpha" and dictate my wife's behaviour but we all need to have a line in the sand that is not crossed. If it is crossed, someone needs to be held accountable and spoken to.


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## Saki

Did you just post on a month and a half old thread so you could lob a backhanded insult at me? :lol:

Thanks for helping the OP MEM! :smthumbup:


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## MEM2020

Saki,
You have joined a short list of posters who are super angry at their wives and alternate between:
1. admitting their doormattishness and misery and
2. claiming they are happy because they have read some books and lowered their expectations

The question in those cases is simple. Which of those two statements is predominantly true. The answer is equally stark. Men who advise other guys to respond uber aggressively to their wives or third parties are super angry. They suggest the other guy should commit aggravated assault but ignore the other guys wife's behavior since they are afraid to do anything that might make their own wife angry. That isn't helping. 


QUOTE=Saki;1471956]Did you just post on a month and a half old thread so you could lob a backhanded insult at me? :lol:

Thanks for helping the OP MEM! :smthumbup:[/QUOTE]


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## 28down

your wife, she should be at your side and listen to your requests, and honor them. As you should her's!


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